# FFG Legendary Class contest submissions



## kingpaul (Jul 30, 2002)

For those of you who might not be aware, FFG held a contest to create Legendary Classes.  Several of us who made submissions are attemting to create a Netbook of Legendary Classes.  This thread will discuss the submissions and the forthcoming Netbook.

To start off, I made two submissions; Ranged Huntsman and Blade of God.  I have redone them, getting feedback in the earlier thread.  Here are my revised classes:

Ranged Huntsman
Weapon of God


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## Neowolf (Jul 30, 2002)

Would you accept submissions from people who didn't enter the aforementioned contest? If so, I might put something together for you guys.


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## d20Dwarf (Jul 30, 2002)

Sounds like a great idea!

Just to give you guys a little more insight, I created an exclusive legendary class on our Website in my new Behind the Curtain column, just in time for Gencon. 

I didn't put quests on it, though, so if you have any ideas feel free to post them!


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## Khur (Jul 30, 2002)

*Current List*

We have permission to use:

The Storm
Warrior of the Broken Wake
Blade of God
Ranged Huntsman
The Brawler
The One
Green Warden
Elf Lord
The King's Warden
The Maitre d'Escrime

Anyone else?

Who's editing theirs? My Green Warden v2.0 is done, methinks. Should we and can we post the new versions here somehow?

As for new submissions, perhaps we should wait for FFG's next contest? I don't know, and it's not just my call.


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## Ruavel (Jul 31, 2002)

*Editing*

I hope to have The King's Warden & The Maitre d'Escrime edited by the end of this coming weekend... 

hope that soon enough, but with work and training at the moment it's about the best I can do...

I'm also happy to help out anyone who submitted entries and didn't make it into the top ten or is submitting something new work...


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## Valicor (Jul 31, 2002)

I never got around to submitting to it, and was kinda regreting it.  I was wondering about a few things in the machenics of the legend Classes.

What is the minimum level one has to be to enter one, 11?

The legend abilities, once you pick a feature to make it better you have to choose it again? or does it upgrade each leve?


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## RedCliff (Jul 31, 2002)

Valicor said:
			
		

> *What is the minimum level one has to be to enter one, 11?*




It came out in the midst of the constest that these classes shouldn't be attainable before level 12.



> *The legend abilities, once you pick a feature to make it better you have to choose it again? or does it upgrade each level? *




Actually, once you pick a power, it's stuck at that power level. That means if you really love a particular ability, it's sometimes better to wait to get it, so it will be more powerful when you do. The powers you gain right away you'll have for longer, but they'll never be as developed as those you wait to gain.

As to my own two submissions, one requires no small bit of work, and I'm afraid I'll be really busy until Monday (when some deadlines pass). Once that happens though, I want to tear through them to get them ready. So I hope to get my stuff in sometime next week, but probably not before then. 

Is there an address we should be sending these to? I saw someone suggest we send these revisions to Khur, but I'm not sure how we're doing that (posting somewhere, e-mail, etc.). 

Thanks.


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## Valicor (Jul 31, 2002)

RedCliff said:
			
		

> *
> Actually, once you pick a power, it's stuck at that power level. That means if you really love a particular ability, it's sometimes better to wait to get it, so it will be more powerful when you do. The powers you gain right away you'll have for longer, but they'll never be as developed as those you wait to gain.
> 
> Thanks. *




so if I took a power at level 1 and it was locked could it take it again at 3rd to improve the ability, or even cause a stackign affect?


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## d20Dwarf (Jul 31, 2002)

Actually 12th level is the minimum level to meet the prerequisites for the class, so 13th level would be your first possible level for a legendary class.

As for stacking powers, I'm afraid you can't.  Once you select an ability you have it at that power level from then on out. This is one of the things that makes each character unique even if they are of the same legendary class. This is especially true for classes that can do things like summon demons....ooooh, but Path of Magic isn't out yet.....*evil grin*


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## MythicJustice (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: Current List*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *We have permission to use:
> 
> The Storm
> Warrior of the Broken Wake
> ...




The True King may be available for the netbook but I first am waiting to hear back from Campaign magazine. A revised version may be showing up there in a few issues.

Chad


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## Khur (Aug 1, 2002)

*Requests for editing...*

*New list:*

The Storm
Warrior of the Broken Wake
Blade of God
Ranged Huntsman
The Brawler
The One
Green Warden
Elf Lord
The King's Warden
The Maitre d'Escrime
The Neclord

*Requests from Khur:*

Make your document OGL compliant (eliminate DM, WotC's trademark, in favor of GM, for example). Try not to have any of your abilities named the same as other abilities or spells in the Core Rulebooks. Try to use colorful names too.

Use the normal indication of an ability's type. For example, use "Aura of Fear *(Su)*: The neclord exudes an aura of fear around him…" instead of tacking this type of statement on the end: " This is a spell-like ability." Use that type of statement to indicate special circumstances like: " This is a mind-affecting, sonic, enchantment ability." That type of statement indicates things like: vermin are immune, anything that is deaf is immune, and elves get +2 to saving throws against the power.

Extraordinary Abilities (Ex), Supernatural Abilities (Su), Spell-like Abilities (Sp). Not every ability will fall into these categories – such as a legendary ability increase.

Spell-like abilities usually require some action on the part of the caster. They usually provoke attacks of opportunity. They may usually only be used as a standard action (replacing other attacks).

Make it so that anyone trying to be a member of the class in question could somehow qualify at 12th level. Make sure it works for your envisioned path.

When editing your class, one of the best ways to do so is make a character and see how it works. I discovered this when looking over Spiff's Neclord v 2.0. I'm not trying to come down on Spiff and his class, the concept of which I like. I do want these classes to be as good as possible, rivaling the pros at FFG.

If you think you're not up to the task of editing like this, then let one of us help you.

Thanks everyone.


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## kingpaul (Aug 1, 2002)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> *Ranged Huntsman
> Weapon of God *



Khur,

Just updated my stuff to reflect your requests.


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## Ruavel (Aug 2, 2002)

*Editing*

one down... one to go...

Khur, if you could go through this and double check for me, I'm happy to make any changes you require...

thanx...


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## Khur (Aug 2, 2002)

*More requests from Khur and...*

One more thing about editing ... try to avoid page references to core rulebooks. Use the abbreviations PHB, DMG, and MM to refer to the core books. (Someone tell me if this is unnecessary to be OGL compliant or if it is still a violation.)

Another thing is, the character you make up to make sure your class works as written can be included in the document as an NPC if you like.

I got the Neclord v2, Weapon of God, Ranged Huntsman and the Maitre d'Escrime so far. I'm looking them over.

Thanks everyone!

 

Here's the revised Green Warden for scrutiny:


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## reddist (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: More requests from Khur and...*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> * Use the abbreviations PHB, DMG, and MM ...*




Minor nitpick.. there is no PHB... Its the PH, or _Player's Handbook_, or _Core Rule Book I_.  PHB is a (very) common term, but it is technically incorrect.  For something official, you should probably use an official term.

2cp

-Reddist


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## kingpaul (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Re: More requests from Khur and...*



			
				reddist said:
			
		

> *Minor nitpick.. there is no PHB... Its the PH, or Player's Handbook, or Core Rule Book I.  PHB is a (very) common term, but it is technically incorrect.  For something official, you should probably use an official term.*



Actually, per the d20 Guide, v. 2, WotC says you can cite the Player's Handbook by its title or by PHB.


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## reddist (Aug 2, 2002)

Ah... I'll have to update my bookmarks.  Thanks.

Still... it is incorrect 

Heh,

-Reddist


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## kingpaul (Aug 2, 2002)

reddist said:
			
		

> *Still... it is incorrect *



LOL


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## Khur (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: More requests from Khur and...*

DOH! I didn't take out my Player's Handbook references or DM in the Green Warden yet. I'll do that pronto.

Thanks to Paul and Reddist for their input. Here's the language form the d20 Guide for those who don't want to search for it:


You may refer to the Dungeon Master’s Guide as the DMG, the Monster Manual as the MM.  You may cite the Player’s Handbook by title, or as the PHB.  You may cite the Psionics Handbook by title.  You must not cite page number references, because pagination may change in future printings.  You may cite chapter, heading, and subheading titles from the DMG, the MM, the PHB or the Psionics Handbook.

Example:

“See DMG Chapter 3, Special Abilities, Charm and Compulsion for more information.”

At this time, you may not make reference by title to any other Wizards of the Coast products.
 And BTW, I noticed some other things when reading the v2s of some work. Here's some recommendations that will help me come layout time:

Don't put two spaces after any punctuation. It's a holdover from mono-spaced typewriters and unneeded with proportional fonts.

Use a single tab to indent paragraphs.
 As for writing, one common error I've seen (and made) is the use of a singular noun (a ninja) with a plural possessive pronoun (their). For example: "A ninja may use their sword to chop off heads all the time—that's Real Ultimate Power!" I realize this is an attempt by some folks to be sex neutral, but it's incorrect. Make the noun plural, or make the possessive appropriate. "Ninjas are crazy, and their swords are sharp!" or "A ninja wails on his guitar like a rock banshee!"

Pick one pronoun (he or she, not both or using "he or she" for every pronoun) and stick with it in the writing. It should be understood by mature, well-adjusted adults that this is actually a neutral statement within the limits of our language. If you're worried about it, just use she.

Thanks!



(EDIT) Technically, Reddist is right since Handbook is one word, but WotC sets the rules and they chose PHB.


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## kingpaul (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Re: More requests from Khur and...*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *As for writing, one common error I've seen (and made) is the use of a singular noun (a ninja) with a plural possessive pronoun (their). For example: "A ninja may use their sword to chop off heads all the time—that's Real Ultimate Power!" I realize this is an attempt by some folks to be sex neutral, but it's incorrect.*



Really?  I was under the impression it was now accepted practice.  My English profs in college demanded it if we were referring to neutrals.


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## Khur (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: More requests from Khur and...*



			
				kingpaul said:
			
		

> *
> Really?  I was under the impression it was now accepted practice.  My English profs in college demanded it if we were referring to neutrals. *



 Without getting into the politics of universities and political correctness, accepted (or preffered, or encouraged) practice is not the same as correct. For example, it is common practice to use the word gender (the grammatical categories of “masculine,” “feminine,” and “neuter”) to refer to sexual identity. In English it's incorrect, nonetheless. (Although incorrect usage tends to mutate into correct usage over time.)

Strunk and White's _The Elements of Style_ (pages 60-61) makes an eloquent case for the use of "he" instead of "they". I'm not a stickler on this point, though I do notice that some editors for d20 companies are. (One listed that using they or theirs, instead of he or his, as his pet peeve.)

If any of you feel strongly about this point, let me know. To me, taking offense at facts of language structure is a bit absurd, but I want everyone to be comfortable and happy as well.



(EDIT) Some dictionaries (Webster's) list your suggestion as an alternative form (as does _The Elements of Style_  while decrying it at the same time). Others clearly call this usage a problem (The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition). The latter volume also states: 

The use of the third-person plural pronoun they to refer to a singular noun or pronoun is attested as early as 1300, and many admired writers have used they, them, themselves, and their to refer to singular nouns such as one, a person, an individual, and each.


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## d20Dwarf (Aug 2, 2002)

The official FFG writer's guidelines say:

Singular subject/plural pronoun: A *writer* tends to do this when *their* attention is focused elsewhere. “Their” is a plural pronoun, so it should not be used to refer to a single subject. If you have one person, or he, or she as the subject of your sentence, “their” should not be used to refer to that person.


Not that any of you have to follow our guidelines.


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## kingpaul (Aug 2, 2002)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> *Not that any of you have to follow our guidelines.  *



But if we do, do we have a better shot at winning forthcoming contests?


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## d20Dwarf (Aug 3, 2002)

Hell yeah.  Our writer's guidelines are found on our Website, under General Info.


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## Tallow (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: Current List*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *We have permission to use:
> 
> The Storm
> Warrior of the Broken Wake
> ...




You have permission to use Spirit of the Beast.  I would need some more feedback than Khur gave on the original thread to rewrite it though.

Andy Christian


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## Tallow (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: Current List*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *We have permission to use:
> 
> The Storm
> Warrior of the Broken Wake
> ...




You have permission to use Spirit of the Beast.  I would need some more feedback than Khur gave on the original thread to rewrite it though.

Andy Christian


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## Ruavel (Aug 5, 2002)

*The Kings Warden*

here 'tis... The King's Warden v2.0... 

a few changes have been made in line with some of the feedback I received... 

thanks to everyone who has commented, by the way...

I am still happy to listen to (read) any further comments people have on this class or my other one (The Maitre d'Escrime)... I have people in my campaigns chomping at the bit to try them out so I'm keen to see what others think of them...


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## RedCliff (Aug 5, 2002)

*Warrior of the Broken Wake*

Here's the first of mine.


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## Khur (Aug 5, 2002)

*Submissions*

I got both Redcliff's & Rauvel's classes downloaded. Will read 'em.

Thanks!


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## RedCliff (Aug 5, 2002)

I just realized I forgot to add the tags for the abilities. Quick appendix then:

All special abilities for the Warrior of the Broken Wake are Extraordinary abilities, save for Spell Cutting and Sever Life, which are Supernatural. Sorry about that.


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## Khur (Aug 9, 2002)

*LgCs and more*

Anyone else got submissions for me ... I'm still reading the ones I got and will send them back to the writers with editing comments.

Anyone who wants to do artwork or anything like that, let me know. Let me see some samples too, if you can.

Thanks!


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## kingpaul (Aug 12, 2002)

*Re: LgCs and more*

Khur,

How's the book coming?


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## Khur (Aug 12, 2002)

*Slowly*

I have the following classes:

Warrior of the Broken Wake
Green Warden
Maitre d'Escrime
Neclord
Nimrod
Ranged Huntsman
King's Warden
Weapon of God

I've edited the Neclord and sent it back to its author for revisions and I've edited the Green Warden, whose name I may change to something like Guardian of The Green ("The Green" being an elven spiritual ideal related to the natural world, a la Charles De Lint.)

I'll be editing the others ASAP ... most of my editing is just rules reminders and recommendations, which I put into the document in red. I'll be sending everyone's back for a final revision.

Does anyone want to edit mine?

Shouldn't our netbook have an intro? What kind of intro text should we have?

Do we want additional submissions? Eight is a good number and I really wanted to highlight the stuff from the contest.

Thanks!


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## kingpaul (Aug 12, 2002)

*Re: Slowly*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Does anyone want to edit mine?*



Which one/s was/were your's again?


			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Shouldn't our netbook have an intro? What kind of intro text should we have?*



It probably should.  How 'bout seeing if Wil @ FFG would be willing to do one.  


			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Do we want additional submissions? Eight is a good number and I really wanted to highlight the stuff from the contest.*



We could, doesn't matter to me.  I'll work up an example NPC (maxed out) for each of mine, with some background text as well.  Should probably help out those reading the NB what the classes are about.


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## kingpaul (Aug 14, 2002)

*bump*


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## Ruavel (Aug 15, 2002)

*NPC's*



> *We could, doesn't matter to me. I'll work up an example NPC (maxed out) for each of mine, with some background text as well. Should probably help out those reading the NB what the classes are about.*




is it worth all included submissions having an example NPC created to demonstrate the theme/spirit and power of the class...?

if so, I'll happily produce one each for the King's Warden and the Maitre d'Escrime...

 

btw - has anyone received copies of Path of the Sword as part of their prize yet...?


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## RedCliff (Aug 15, 2002)

*storm submission*

Here's the Storm. Several abilities have undergone heavy revision, much based on feedback I received here.

If people are hungry for more classes, I could chuck in my other one, the Tender to the Essential Essence. This one wasn't particularly popular however, which is why I held it back initially. If it's needed, I could conceivably get it out much faster than I did this one.

And to answer an earlier question, no, I haven't received my book yet, but I believe d20Dwarf said they wouldn't be going out until after Gen Con, so I'm not unduly antsy yet (aside from the normal I WANT IT NOW syndrome that accompanies all cool products).


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## kingpaul (Aug 19, 2002)

*shameless bump*

*bump*


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## Shadeus (Aug 19, 2002)

Here's a revised Dwarven Forgemaster (which you can obviously add to the list of those in the book).


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## Ruavel (Aug 23, 2002)

*where are we at...?*

has anyone heard anything from Khur about the status of the proposed Netbook and the editing process...?


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## Khur (Aug 23, 2002)

*Sorry...*

I'm gonna try to get everything edited by early next week (or earlier) and sent back to the writers (if need be). Then we'll move to the next stage.

Sorry I'm slow, I've been working on multiple projects over the past weeks, and real life has a way of getting in the mix. I want to do this right, though.

Thanks everyone.


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## Khur (Aug 26, 2002)

*Something's Happening...*

Some more general tips:


Get the Dragon Magazine Writer's Guidelines and the Dungeon Guidelines. Follow them for issues of style, capitalization, and stat blocks. (For example" the hamfist strike does 4d6 points of damage" instead of "4d6 damage".) Be sure to specify types of damage as well (electrical, cold, heat).

Use US English spellings (industry standard, even though I like British spellings too).

When making a list, use commas before an "and". For example "kobolds, carrots, and otyugh spit makes a nice stew for a hill giant." (I acknowledge that it's accepted practice to leave off this comma.) Why? It assures the understanding of the list's continuation and eliminates problems when one must use "and" in the list elsewhere. For example, "Everyone bring your sword, shield, bow and arrows, and your armor."

Don't capitalize the name of your prestige class or any other noun in your writing unless it's a proper noun. For example, "Exalted Storm Lin Fu Myan" is fine, while "the Storm loves to chop off people's heads" is not.
 Here are three classes ready for reworking. My comments are in red. Some of them are just suggestions, others are recommended, and still others are required. Which is which should be apparent, but if you have any doubts, ask me. In general, any rules clarifications I added are required changes.

The Storm 
King's Warden 
Weapon of God 

I also included a PDF of a rough layout page design. Opinions are welcome.

Design Rough

Thanks!


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## Ruavel (Aug 27, 2002)

*The King's Warden*



> *Here are three classes ready for reworking. My comments are in red. Some of them are just suggestions, others are recommended, and still others are required. Which is which should be apparent, but if you have any doubts, ask me. In general, any rules clarifications I added are required changes*




I've had a read through your work on the King's Warden... I'll try to have a response for you by the end of the week... (I'm moving buildings at work so unfortunately I can make no promises... )

I liked the look of the "ruff design" for the layout, but I may be a little bias there given that you used the Warden as an example... I'm trying to be objective... I promise...   

seriously, I like the look and hope others do too... has any thought been given to inclusion of 'iconic' characters as examples of our Legendary Classes and also art work...?

and one last question, has anyone received their copy of Path of the Sword yet...? It may just be that because I live on the other side of the planet it's taking it's sweet time getting here, but I just wanted to check...

keep up the hard work Khur... it's looking good...


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## Khur (Aug 27, 2002)

*Some answers...*

I'm still kicking around the idea of art and the layout grid. Black and white line art would be best for a PDF. I'm open to contributions from any of the authors, but I'd like to set a high standard.

I've not gotten my Path of the Sword, but I figure the typical "allow 4-8 weeks for delivery". (It hasn't been that long and Gen Con got in the way.)

I also hope d20 dwarf and the gang throw us another contest for Path of Magic and the other Path books. Maybe we can actually get some of our stuff into these books.

Organization designs might be a good contest idea too.

I hope FFG is listening!


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## Ruavel (Aug 27, 2002)

*prompt answers*

thanx Khur...

*Kip the Bold* has been posting art work (predominantly b&w line) in this thread. 

I posted a suggestion that "we" may be interested but it may well be worth approacing him more directly...

I guess another problem with living in Australia is that I don't truly appreciate how big an impact GenCon has publishers and organisations in the industry... guess I'll just have to be patient and wait for my book like everyone else, huh...?  

I'd love to see contests for any other FFG 'Path' books... I've already written a sorcerer LgC for one of my players and really would love to see how it compares to others...

maybe we should be sending niggling little messages to d20dwarf designed at provoking him into action...  
or maybe we should just let him get some work done...

if there's anything I can do to help out, let me know...


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## Ruavel (Aug 27, 2002)

*additional Legendary Ability*

Well Khur, you asked for one more so here it is...

I figured I'd get you (and anyone else who caresto) to look at it before I add it to the final draft of the King's Warden...

*Defender of the Realm (Ex)*: Continually battling similar types of creatures in his role as protector results in the king’s warden developing exceptional tactics and skills for fighting these creatures. When the warden gains this ability, he chooses a number of creature types equal to his power level, following the same rules that govern a ranger’s favoured enemy selection (particularly those rules relating to humanoids and outsiders). The creature types selected should reflect the monsters prevalent in the realm that the king’s warden protects and must be approved by the game master. When he battles a monster that falls within any of the creature types chosen, the king’s warden receives a +2 dodge bonus to his armor class against attacks made by these creatures as well as a +2 damage bonus to any successful attacks he makes on them in return.


some feedback would obviously be greatly appreciated...


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## Khur (Aug 27, 2002)

*My take on your power...*

The power is an excellent idea. Drawing from examples in other sourcebooks of similar abilities, here's how I might put it:

*Defender of the Realm (Ex):* The king's warden develops exceptional tactics in defending his realm from the depredations of creatures that are common threats therein. The warden may select a number of opponents equal to the power level of this ability (subject to GM approval). These foes must come from a narrower selection than the ranger's favored enemies; the warden may not select "orcs", but instead must select some specific group of orcs like "the Green Tooth Orcs of the Blarkney Hills". Further, the warden may select members of his own race that come from a group opposed to the warden's protected dominion—soldiers of an enemy empire, for example. Even a diverse group that creates a common threat may be selected, such as all bandits from a local region. The warden's familiarity with these creatures, groups, or peoples grants him a +2 dodge bonus to AC, a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls, and a +2 bonus to Sense Motive checks. These bonuses stack with favored enemy bonuses from other class abilities or feats.

One might also consider giving the warden a bonus attack of opportunity should such foes be caught in a condition that allows such an attack.

What do you think?



(EDIT) BTW, I want all authors to come up with an iconic character example for their class. If this is too much for anyone, let me know, and I'll make the character using your class. Add new magic items and spells for your character if you want (subject to editing, of course). Feel free to expand on your class with additional information. For example, the king's warden begs for an accompanying prestige class: the deputy warden. 

On that note, this is why the Legendary Class should also have an iconic name. A deputy warden could just as easily be called a king's warden. If the leader of such wardens were called, say, Royal High Warden, the distinction would be clear. There's only one Royal High Warden, but there could be many king's wardens. 

This is why I'm changing my class' name to something more singular—from Green Warden to High Guardian of the Green, Land's Heart Guardian, or some such thing (still tossing ideas about). Perhaps I'll make a prestige class to signify non-legendary members of the same order and call them green guardians (to distinguish them from the king's wardens).


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## Ruavel (Aug 28, 2002)

*Iconics*

thanx for the comments on the power... I'll give it one final working then add it to the full document and get it off to you ASAP... I was thinking of wording the list of "enemies" a little differently... maybe... we'll see after I have another look at it...

what format should the iconic LgC characters be prepared in...? just wanting to know so I'm not doing more work than you want and you're not left with a major editing headache...

 

just another quick question... what "restrictions" (legal or otherwise) are there pertaining to the further submission of this material (ie the classes themselves) to other forums (either online or hard copy)...?


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## Khur (Aug 29, 2002)

*Answers....*

Do what you want when it comes to the character you make. Make it conform to the standard stat block (found in Dungeon, or the Standard Stat Block site.)

The Legendary Class you designed is your intellectual property; legally you can do as you wish with it. One thing to keep in mind is that we're making an OGC netbook, so you're class is OGC. If you don't want that, then you have to designate what part of your writing is product identity. I'm personally reserving all my character background text and his name as product identity, but little else.

Based on examples I've seen elsewhere (The Everquest RPG), one can require lifted OGC to cite its source, but I'm not sure about it. Regardless, the legal pages of the netbook can request that anyone lifting the material simply cite where it came from as a gentlepersons' agreement.

As for submitting the work to another source, I'd say tell them that it's going into an OGC netbook. See if they have a problem. I'd also say that if you can get paid for the work, but having it appear in the netbook puts a prospective buyer off, take the LgC from the netbook, and get paid.


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## Ruavel (Aug 29, 2002)

*gotta love Answers...*

  thanx Khur...

I'll get the King's Warden iconic done soon but I'll wait until the Maitre LgC has been edited a little before starting on that one...

I was mainly asking about the submission issue because there is a small rpg group in Perth that has a little publication that always needs additional content... I thought it might be good to offer something new like the LgC's...  thanx for the tips about OGC etc... I'll probably do something similar to yourself in terms of claiming product identity, but I'll see how it pans out...

thanx for the link to the Stat Block site too...  most helpful...


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## Khur (Aug 29, 2002)

*Hmmmm....*

No worries. The gamers in Perth could use your stuff for sure.

I'll have more (first stage) LgC editing done soon. Is anyone else viewing this thread besides me and Ruavel?


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## Khur (Aug 29, 2002)

*For kingpaul...*

Paul, I need to talk about your new version of the Ranged Huntsman with you, can you email me?

Thanks.


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## Khur (Aug 29, 2002)

*More stuff*

More points:

Do not capitalize the d in places like 2d6. Do not capitalize the names of spells, but do italicize them.

And a question:

Should I simply edit these classes to versions I think comply with the rules or should I give suggestions? What I mean is that some of the abilities these classes have do not work in accordance with the rules as written. Should I edit as if these were submissions to a pro company (taking the idea and making it into something useable), or should I show the author how his or her ability needs to be altered to work?

The latter task takes much longer, but I also don't want to offend someone by taking their idea and altering it. What authority do I have? Further, how much credit does an author deserve if just the core idea of a class is maintained, but is rewritten by the editor almost entirely? My goal here is not personal glory, it's just to make a book of classes that can stand the test of scrutiny and use without having to do a "Legendary Netbook of Errata, Clarifications, and Frequently Asked Questions".

Finally, here's the Neclord


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## Ruavel (Aug 29, 2002)

*editing...*

given that you're doing the bulk of the editing, maybe you should do it however you think is best... maybe if you edit something so it works then paste it below the author's original (in red or something equally noticable)... that way you educate the author (at least a little) and if they have any questions about what/why you've done they can post them here for clarification, which can hopefully be addressed by a few others (not just you, which will hopefully take a little pressure off yourself)...

maybe... just a suggestion...

*shrug*

btw - it really does feel like it only us here, doesn't it...?  spooky...


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## reddist (Aug 29, 2002)

I'm reading

As far as editing vs sending back to the author goes... if there are a few simple things you can do to fix style or balance,  just do it.  In most cases, its far easier than contacting the author, telling him what you want fixed, then waiting for him to send you a new version.  Online, that MIGHT take as little as an afternoon, or it might take 3 days.  If you fix it, it takes about 5 seconds.

I've looked at the "rough draft" you put up.  I'm impressed with how it looks.  Very professional.  You are doing an excellent job.

The One.  Today.  Really. Still needs a new name though.  Thoughts, anyone?

Hopefully it will be so clean all you have to do is format it for your PDFs

-Reddist


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## kingpaul (Aug 29, 2002)

*Deity's Weapon (was: Weapon of God)*

Have redone the class per  your suggestsions...which did, after-all, make sense.

Here it is.


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## reddist (Aug 29, 2002)

*The One renamed?*

I'm trying to brainstorm some ideas for renaming this LC...here's a few off my list...

Planar Node
Planar Facet
Planar Union
Juxtaposal Aspect
Juxaspect

There.... who likes renaming The One to Juxaspect?

Anyone else have any ideas?  I'm stuck.  Too close to it, I guess.

Thanks,

--Reddist


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## Khur (Aug 30, 2002)

*Me again...*

Reddist,

Juxtaspect is a nice little name, I'd go for it.

 

A message for everyone:

It's been suggested that everyone would prefer to fix their own classes rather than have editors do this for them. This is fine, but it will take much longer. Further, I'm not willing to do this by committee, meaning I need to know how much authority I have with issues of whether something is good enough, deciding on rules issues, and OGL compliance. What I'd like is to set up an imaginary situation where I'm treated like a real editor, and you all are talented freelancers with whom I'm working. You're free to argue with me, but I have final say. This isn't because I'm power hungry, or dislike a few of you and want you out, it's because design by committee is always a mess.

When I send something to you for revision, do as you wish ... any change that isn't rules wording based is optional. I make bold changes in the editing, knowing you have your original with which to compare mine. If I change the name of one of your powers, it's not because you *must* use said name, it's because I want a more creative name for the power. If I changed what the power does, it's because I needed to for clarity or rules compliance, or I explain why (usually). If you have a question, ask ... I'm just interested in all of us having a nice finished product, not massaging my considerable ego.

On the flip side, if you leave or return something to the way it was before I suggested a change, I expect you to tell me why. The argument should be rules based or show why my representation of your work misses the point somehow. Your personal preference is not enough to support a design flaw. I'm human, though, and I make mistakes and misunderstand what a person might mean at times. Also, forgive me if I seem too blunt. I don't think any less of you as a person just because I don't like one of your design decisions. Further, written word doesn't convey emotion very well unless it's narrative construction.

If I get your class after this edit and it doesn't comply with the style I've asked for, I'll send it back without reading it further with a notation that your style is off. What I mean by style is capitalization, italics for spell names, abbreviations, and so forth. If you're unsure, read the style guides I've mentioned (Dungeon, Dragon, Statblock) or just look at FFG Style Guide. 

A thing about style:

I know I said use plural pronouns if you're uncomfortable with the idea of using "he", but upon reading the way "them", "their", and "they" are used in some of these pieces, I changed my mind. Choose "he" or "she" and stick with it! Use only singular pronouns with singular nouns. Refer to the Elements of Style: They. (You'll have to scroll down.) Unlike Strunk, I'll overlook the use of "she" in this case, even though it is incorrect (he can be neutral, she is always feminine in English), because my identity is not threatened by pronoun usage (or misusage). If it makes others happy, so be it. (Note, however, that other publishers will not overlook this sort of style, while others (WotC and White Wolf) encourage it.) If you violate this request, I'll send the work back letting you know.

I appreciate this job for two reasons. One, I think you all really tried to give something good to the world of 3E D&D, inspired by the creativity of the folks at FFG, and it's a pleasure to work with enthusiastic persons. Secondly, this project is giving me lots of rules and editing practice. Thanks to you all for letting me do it.

Finally, here's the revised Nimrod.


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## Khur (Aug 30, 2002)

*More stuff....*

Where is everyone? It's as if the whole gaming world were holding its breath!

Two edits:

Maitre d'Escrime 
Brawler

Thanks!


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## Khur (Aug 31, 2002)

*More stuff....*

I think I'm alone now, but just in case I'm not

More editing points:


Eliminate columns.

Please use the "Game Rule Information" format from the PHB for the layout of class info. That is, the headings: Class Skills (without the space-wasting PHB Chapter 4 reference), Class Features: Armor and Weapon Proficiency (without the space-wasting armor penalty text), followed by  a list of class features (gained simply by virtue of joining the class), and a list of "Legendary Class Title" Abilities. Alignment requirements (if any) should be listed among the requirements. Use Ex-"Legendary Class Title" to describe what happens when falling from the class.

Place single spaces between sentences and punctuation. In proportional typography, double spaces become glaring gaps in text. Double spaces need only be used with fonts that have fixed character widths (like Courier). They're a holdover from the days when typewriters were used (typewriters having only fixed character widths).

Format your text as Times New Roman (11 pt), flush left, ragged right. Inside of a single section, place no spaces after each paragraph, but indent all paragraphs after the first. The only exception is the "Quests" section in which you should place a single space between differing quests. Place no space between section headers and the text that follows them. Don't use bullets.

Example:

*Quests*
There is only one true quest involved in becoming a juxaspect. After the character first kills one of his alternate selves, he makes the decision to hunt down others. The second kill, assuming he has enough experience points to gain a level, propels him into his first level as a juxaspect.

Continuing as a juxaspect in an ongoing quest, because each level the character takes in this legendary class must include experience gained from killing at least one alternate self. The character may not advance in level until an alternate self has been slain. Allies may aid the advancing juxaspect, but he must make the killing blow himself.
(indent here)The GM is encouraged to make tracking down alternate selves as difficult as she chooses. Just like the PC, these foes have friends, enemies, and items of power. Many will have taken juxaspect levels themselves, and thus be quite formidable opponents. Not all of these incarnations are of the same class, gender, or even race as the player's juxaspect.

Avoid use of the word "will". 
Use this: "Characters travel in groups if they're wise.", instead of: "Characters will travel in groups if they're wise."

Avoid noncommital words such as may, often, sometimes, and etc.
Two more edits:

Juxaspect
Forgemaster


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## Ruavel (Sep 4, 2002)

*Message for Khur: Maite d'Escrime editing*

just wanted to discuss a few points on the Maitre before I finalise the editing process for this LgC... in particular I wanted to reach some sort of compromise between the changes you've suggested to Lightning Riposte and Arresting Stop-hit and the elements that they contained when originally produced...

have a read of what I have prepared... I hope we can both be happy with the final result...

 

*Lightning Riposte (Ex):* When fighting in melee, once per round the maitre can attempt to parry an opponent’s melee attack with her rapier by making a Reflex saving throw equal to the opponent’s attack roll. If she succeeds, the enemy's attack misses and the maitre may immediately attempt a single attack against her adversary at her highest base attack bonus with a +1 bonus per power level due to the surprising nature of the strike. Opponents using a full attack action get their remaining attacks after the riposte. If the maitre fails the Reflex save, the attack against her is resolved normally and no riposte attack occurs. The maitre can use this technique a number of times per day equal to twice her power level.

(elements changed: bonus to attack with riposte; number reduced to twice power level per day)

*Arresting Stop-hit (Ex):* A maitre with superior initiative can ready an action to launch a counter-attack as her opponent tries to strike her. The combatants making opposing attack rolls, with the maitre receiving a +1 bonus to attack per power level. If the maitre’s attack roll is higher she lodges the point of her rapier into the attacking limb of her opponent that stops that opponents attack as well as inflicting a normal damage. The victim so struck must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + power level + half the damage from the stop-hit) or suffer a –2 penalty to all Climb and Swim checks, attack rolls, and Strength checks using the injured limb. Multiple blows to the same limb do not cause penalties that stack, although they can force multiple saving throws. (See DMG Chapter 3, Damage, Variant: Damage to Specific Areas for more information.) Creatures immune to critical hits are also immune to limb injury. If a maitre’s stop-hit successfully strikes and opponent using the full attack action, the opponent must make a similar Fortitude saving throw or lose any attacks he has left in the round. The maitre can use this technique a number of times per day equal to her power level.

(elements changed: bonus to opposed attack rolls, times per day reduced to 1/power per day)

I've started writing the additional quest and will discuss that with you once we have the LgC Abilities finalised...

please don't think that I'm just bagging your alterations out of hand... the suggestions you've made in other areas have been great... Critical Precision and Crippling Cuts look great... but after reading your first edit, these two (ie Lightning Riposte and Arresting Stop-hit) went from being "must have's" to "first culled from the list" for me... (which is saying something coming from a fencer)...

thanx for all you effort... I think this is going to work out to be an excellent Netbook...

ps - when do you want the 'iconics' done by...?


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## Khur (Sep 4, 2002)

*Finished round 1.5*

I really like the way you've written these powers and the +1 to the attacks isn't a big deal. This class is great and you've done a wonderful job refining your writing. So has everyone I've seen so far. (You know who you are.) If there were anything to which I'd object, I can't think of it now. You kept the important rules elements and I think the abilities are streamlined and ready to go. Nice work!

This project seems to be working out well. Thanks to Paul King for being patient and understanding with my editing. Thanks to Wade Nudson (aka Reddist) for the help with reworking the Green Warden. Scott Moore did a good job with the edits.

On that note, feel free to include anything you like with your class. For example, Scott's iconic character mentions a druid order, and he'd be perfectly within his rights to make up that organization if he wanted to. I'd gladly include it in the work. The only thing I must have is an iconic character. Use the standard stat block and show your math in a separate block. Sorry to Scott for not saying this earlier. Here's an example of a proper stat block:


*Aelgifu, female human Tra 10:* CR 10; Medium-size humanoid (5 ft. 8 in. tall); HD 10d4+20; hp 48; Init +2 (+2 Dex); Spd 30 ft.; AC 17 (touch 15, flat-footed 14); Atk +7 melee (1d6+2, _+2 quarterstaff_), or +7 ranged (1d8/crit 19-20, masterwork light crossbow); AL LG; SV Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +10; Str 11, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 15, Cha 14.
(indent here) _Skills_: Alchemy +11, Concentration +15, Craft (carving) +10, Craft (jeweler) +10, Knowledge (arcana) +17, Knowledge (geography) +12, Knowledge (geology) +10, Knowledge (religion) +10, Scry +17, Spellcraft +17. _Feats_: Combat Casting, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Dodge, Eschew Materials, Scribe Scroll, Silent Spell, Spell Penetration, Still Spell.
(indent here) _Notes_: As a transmuter, Aelgifu's restricted school is Conjuration.
(indent here) _Languages_: Celestial, Draconic, Elven, Giant, Common
(indent here) _Wizard Spells Prepared_ (4+1/5+1/5+1/4+1/4+1/2+1, base save DC 14 + spell level): 0—_detect magic (x2), mage hand (x2), read magic_; 1st—_expeditious retreat, feather fall, lesser fire orb(x2), shield (x2)_; 2nd—_daylight (x2), levitate, knock (x2), resist elements_; 3rd—_blindsight, dispel magic, fireball, haste (x2);_ 4th—_arcane eye, dimension door, fire orb(x2), mass darkvision_; 5th—_ghostform, teleport (x2)_
(indent here) _Spell Book_: 0—all in PHB besides restricted, _launch bolt, silent portal_; 1st—_animate rope, comprehend languages, endure elements, erase, expeditious retreat, feather fall, lesser fire orb, low-light vision, magic weapon, message, reduce, shield_; 2nd—_alter self, darkvision, daylight, eagle's splendor, knock, levitate, resist elements_; 3rd—_blindsight, dispel magic, fireball, fly, gaseous form, haste_; 4th—_arcane eye, dimension door, fire orb, mass darkvision, scry_; 5th—_ghostform, leutzan's frequent jaunt, simbul's spell matrix, teleport._
(indent here) _Possessions_: _+2 quarterstaff of continual light_ (suppressed at will), light crossbow (masterwork), quiver (20 masterwork bolts), _+3 robes of deflection, bracers of armor +2, +1 cloak of resistance, ring of warmth_ (cold resistance 5), _wand of magic missiles_ (5 missiles per charge, 17 charges), _wand of magic weapon_ (7 charges, +1 for 10 minutes), travel spellbook, journal, ink, pen, fine overcoat (fur lined), and fur boots.
_Dungeon_ doesn't ask for spellbooks for wizard characters, but I'd like to include them if your character has wizard levels. Another category would be "(Legendary Class Name) Abilities" and each ability should have a roman numeral after it indicating its power level; that is, *Burger Flipping II,* if the power level is two. Further, if your character has domains, that's a category that looks like this:


(indent here) _Domains_: Retribution (special power description placed here in brief) and Travel (_freedom of movement_ 3 rounds/day). Domain spells are not italicized above.
*Special Note:* The above stat block contains items found in _Tome and Blood, Magic of Faerûn_, and the _Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting_. These spells and items are closed content and © of Wizards of the Coast. Their appearance (in name) here is merely for example, and not a challenge to the copyright.

I need everyone who's revising his or her class to let me know. Just post here or send me an email. I need to know who's not working on revisions, so I can polish up the work myself or with the help of others. If you don't respond in a few days, I'll assume you're not reading this board and I'll take over refining the class in question. I also need each person to claim each class by his or her real name, for the purpose of crediting each piece properly.

Here's a list with links to the edit docs:

Brawler 
Deity's Weapon (new edit version 3)
Dwarven Forgemaster 
Guardian of the Green (Mine for everyone's perusal. Reddist, please take a look.)
Juxaspect 
King's Warden 
Maitre d’Escrime 
Neclord 
Nimrod 
Storm 
Warrior of the Broken Wake

Thanks!


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## reddist (Sep 4, 2002)

I'm working on my two, though it may not be until this weekend before I have time to hammer out characters w/ decent backgrounds.

I think you have my name

-Reddist


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## reddist (Sep 4, 2002)

Khur-

Didn't like Ladglasmar anymore? 

Think I'll name my Brawler character Bubba Clint.


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## Khur (Sep 4, 2002)

*Ladglasmar*

About Ladglasmar ... I'm still working on him, but I wanted anyone who's looking at the class to focus on the class itself. What did you think about my redo of the "One With the Land" Ability?


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## reddist (Sep 4, 2002)

After I thought about it some more, I didn't mind it as much.  As long as he is taking his spells, with carefully noted excpetions, from the ranger spell list, 2 more 4th level spells per day shouldn't make that much of a difference for a legendary character.  

It wass the thought of 8 more 1st level spells, or even 4 2nd level spells, that got me wondering if it could be abused.  But at the character levels we're dealing with, a nobody is going to notice a few more spells being cast.

A reasonable arguement would be that the legendary requirements justify the extra slots, and also that DM's who allow LCs will also be aware enough not to let players take advantage of their new powers.

With all that in mind, I wouldn't bother restricting the spells to specific schools, I'd restrict them to the ranger's spell list.

-Reddist


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## Khur (Sep 4, 2002)

*DOH!*

Dang! I liked the new version (with the druid additions). I actually like it better than the old power, because it makes more sense and actually creates the type of situation I envisioned, without stepping on other powers. As the original was written, for example, a Sor1/Rgr12/Guardian 5 with the ability at power level 5 could cast _pass without trace_ on 8 persons for 80 minutes a pop 10 times per day, or 13 hours. That devalues the Tree Shroud ability a bit. Or does it? (With Tree Shroud that would be 18 hours of _pass without trace_.) Of course, nobody would use all their slots for _pass without trace_ anyhow, and you're certainly right that a few 3rd and 4th-level spells are not so burly in an 18th-level situation.

Now I'm torn. I blame you of course! 

Thanks!


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## Ruavel (Sep 5, 2002)

> *I really like the way you've written these powers and the +1 to the attacks isn't a big deal. This class is great and you've done a wonderful job refining your writing.*



yay...!! praise....!! 

 

I'll insert those two powers as posted and post the second quest sometime later today (hopefully)... sorry if it takes me a while to get things done at the moment, but work and training for Nationals is keeping me terribly busy (and drained of energy) at the moment...

the iconic characters for my LgC's are taking me a little time to get to as well (see above reasons) but I have a nice quiet weekend free from competition coming up so maybe I can get something happening then...

if there's anything more I can do to help let me know...


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## RedCliff (Sep 5, 2002)

*edits & characters*

Khur,

Attached are the revised versions of my classes. The iconic characters are at the bottom of the docs, past all the class information.

By and large, I went with all edits in place, save for a few exceptions. Here they are, and here's why:

Storm's basic requirements:
-I took out the BAB +12 and replaced it with a +4 Base Reflex save. The combination of this plus feat requirements means there shouldn't be a character qualifying for this class early. With a BAB of +12, monks wouldn't be able to take 5 levels of this class; they don't get +12 until level 16.

-Of the required feats I took out Improved Unarmed Strike. Whirlwind Attack alone accounts for 5 feats (Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Expertise, Whirlwind Attack). And Lightning Reflexes is already a requirement as well. Add another feat to that and no one but fighters will ever quality for this class. That, and I envisioned this as a versatile class in terms of flavor. It doesn't have to be a martial artist (the iconic character I included isn't). 

Warrior of the Broken Wake:
-I dropped the Strength requirement to 18, since 20 is a bit hard to hit by level 12. However, the starting concept of this class was powerful blows. Image and game mechanics both point to a strong character. Thus, the strength requirement.

-I reworked Hooking Blow, changing the name and the descriptive text (though mechanically it remains unchanged). I'm not sure how this one is going to go over, as I believe our tastes are just going to differ on this one. 

-I looked over the DMG section on damage as noted, but didn't see anything applicable to Sever Life but a variant rule on massive damage, and that didn't provide any insight. I'm not sure what you wanted me to do with that one.


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## RedCliff (Sep 5, 2002)

*storm*

For some reason, I can only get one attachement to take. Here's the other.

Oh, and I just read that bit about real names and crediting, so mark me down as Clifford Horowitz.


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## Ruavel (Sep 5, 2002)

*Maitre d'Escrime quests...*

anyone care to read this additional quest and tell me what they think...?

_To truly be considered a master of fencing, the prospective maitre must bring something more to the art than just her experience with the rapier and time must be spent furthering swordplay above all other things. In her desire to improve her swordsmanship and that of others, the upcoming maitre must spend a significant period of time away from her homeland studying the fighting styles of another race or culture. The subject of her studies can be located no closer than 500 miles from the maitre’s base of operations, although some of the greatest maitre have gone so far as to spend their time studying the combat techniques of races like the githyanki and githzerai on other planes. 

   For the study to be valid, the subject of the maitre’s study must have obvious differences from the normal fighting styles of her own culture and race. For example after spending several weeks aiding an elven community far from her home, Trinnen val Kemeer spent another four months with group of young elves who were training to become Bladesingers. The elves would not teach Trinnen any part of the Bladesong but she was permitted to watch the student practice, make notes on what she saw and occasionally spar with the pupils. 

   The study of such exotic combat methods should ultimately produce a comprehensive analysis of the weapons, tactics, protective equipment, and some of the more impressive manoeuvres used by the people or school studied, their comparative strengths and weaknesses, and a discussion on the possible adaptation of any appropriate skills or equipment into the school of fencing._

I know this doesn't reflect correct layout, but that will be altered for the draft...

any and all feedback is appreciated... although be gentle, I'm fragile...
 

thanx...


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## RedCliff (Sep 5, 2002)

*additional quest*

I think the concept you put forth is a good one, but I'm a tad leary about giving a legendary character a quest that stops short of the risk of failure. The quest, as it's presented, basically involves auditing other fighting classes for a little while.

The idea of finding masters of other styles is a good one though, and certainly worth keeping. Why not add the caveat that the would-be legend has to not only study the other styles, but take what he learns and prove himself better by besting the master of the alternate school? He would have to best a certain number of other accomplished fighters before his quest would be complete. 

Essentially, the quest would work much as it does now, simply with a conflict (though not necessarily an unfriendly one) at the end of it. 

Like I said, it puts the possibility of failure into the quest, which I think is an important element. I realize that the quest, as it stands, requires an extensive analysis of the alternate fighting styles, but I wonder how many people playing D&D have the knowledge of swordplay required to perform such a task. If not, it'll have to come down to something like an Intelligence check.


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## Khur (Sep 5, 2002)

*Nice redos!*

Redcliff, I need your real name (if I should already have it, sorry). Nice work on the edits. You left me a little work to do, but that's okay.



> * Storm's basic requirements:
> -I took out the BAB +12 and replaced it with a +4 Base Reflex save. The combination of this plus feat requirements means there shouldn't be a character qualifying for this class early. With a BAB of +12, monks wouldn't be able to take 5 levels of this class; they don't get +12 until level 16. *



I understand and your class is polishing up nicely. There's a problem, however. A monk at 1st-level has a base reflex save of +2. If that monk immediately switches to fighter at 2nd, he gets a feat and +0 base reflex. That's two feats. He gets two more feats at 3rd-level (one for fighter, one for 3rd-level). That's four feats. At 4th-level, his Reflex saves rises to +3. At 5th-level, he gains another feat and two more at 6th; that's 7 feats. At 6th-level he's got a base reflex save of +4 also. By 7th, assuming an Int bonus of +1 (minimum for Whirlwind Attack), the character has Jump: 9 ranks, Intimidate (cross-class) 5 ranks, and Wilderness Lore (cross-class): 5 ranks. At 8th, he qualifies for the storm legendary class. This problem is compounded if the PC in question takes rogue levels or is human ... he'll qualify earlier.

However, if you make the BAB requirement +11 and the Base Reflex Save requirement +4, you allow for multiclass monks, fighters, rangers, paladins, and barbarians, but nobody gets the class until 12th-level, no matter what the multiclass. Envision the monk that forsakes his lawful calling for his moods of rage and finally embraces the storm (Mnk3/Bar9/Storm1). See the ranger that feels the electric vibration of lightning in his bones (Rgr12). A paladin (with a checkered past) of the thunder god leaves behind the path of staunch virtue, and rides the tempest of righteous rage instead (Rog7/Pal6/Storm 1). A monk can get the class at 15th, so he maxes at 20th. The coolest thing about this scheme is a Sor8/Ftr7 can qualify for the class. (I'd sorely like to make this character up for the publication, if you'll allow me.) Check me, you'll find this works.



> * -Of the required feats I took out Improved Unarmed Strike. Whirlwind Attack alone accounts for 5 feats (Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Expertise, Whirlwind Attack). And Lightning Reflexes is already a requirement as well. Add another feat to that and no one but fighters will ever qualify for this class. That, and I envisioned this as a versatile class in terms of flavor. It doesn't have to be a martial artist (the iconic character I included isn't). *



Multiclass fighter types would be the only one's to qualify for the class, yes, or monks, who get Improved Unarmed Strike anyway as a class feature. I included Improved Unarmed Strike because it seemed to make sense with the storm's powers. It's okay not to include it if you feel it's too much though. Remember that these classes don't need to be constructed to allow for all possibilities. Someone interested in a pure spellcaster isn't going to take this LgC, even though it's great. The flexibility offered by the class you've created is very nice though, probably the best I've seen so far – especially if we include the BAB requirement.



> * Warrior of the Broken Wake:
> -I dropped the Strength requirement to 18, since 20 is a bit hard to hit by level 12. However, the starting concept of this class was powerful blows. Image and game mechanics both point to a strong character. Thus, the strength requirement. *



Nice reasoning on the ability and on lowering it. You can safely assume that a fighter character has 15-16 Strength at level one.



> * -I reworked Hooking Blow, changing the name and the descriptive text (though mechanically it remains unchanged). I'm not sure how this one is going to go over, as I believe our tastes are just going to differ on this one. *



Holding Blow is a better power, full-stop. I think this version works for me, so I don't think we'll disagree. My only problem at first look is the "no reversal" clause. I may edit it a bit to show the implications of using a weapon to pin an opponent (or you can).



> * -I looked over the DMG section on damage as noted, but didn't see anything applicable to Sever Life but a variant rule on massive damage, and that didn't provide any insight. I'm not sure what you wanted me to do with that one. *



This wasn't a comment to you, merely an addition to the power for the DM reading it to refer to the variant. Many persons don't use that variant in their games and won't know off-hand what you're referring to in the ability. On that note, the Death by Massive Damage variant is real garbage as far as game design goes. While the 3E team did a great job satisfying the idea that someone might want something like this, they made the rule too simple (probably for space considerations). Maybe you and I could work up a new variant for Death by Massive Damage or make the power more like a deathblow from an assassin (save, or die).

Good work!


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## Khur (Sep 5, 2002)

*New maitre quest*

Rauvel, you're on the right track.

This is a good idea, but one that only makes sense if Knowledge (tactics) or some such thing is required by the LgC. (Many "official" prestige classes overlook this very thing.) Perhaps the quest should include traveling the world and besting a few opponents (proving that the art of fencing is superior, of course), in addition to studying their styles. Losing such a bout is dangerous to the aspirant's confidence. Perhaps the character must produce a treatise on the subject (requiring Knowledge checks, with the potential for failure). BTW, we can't mention githyanki or githzerai, nor can we mention bladesingers (Tome and Blood) as far as I know. If someone knows I'm wrong, let me know.


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## RedCliff (Sep 5, 2002)

*Re: Nice redos!*



> *Redcliff, I need your real name (if I should already have it, sorry). *




Clifford Horowitz



> * However, if you make the BAB requirement +11 and the Base Reflex Save requirement +4, you allow for multiclass monks, fighters, rangers, paladins, and barbarians, but nobody gets the class until 12th-level, no matter what the multiclass. *




Works for me. I'll make the appropriate changes tonght.



> * The coolest thing about this scheme is a Sor8/Ftr7 can qualify for the class. (I'd sorely like to make this character up for the publication, if you'll allow me.) *




Sorely huh? Well, we can't have that. Go right ahead and make that character up then.



> * Holding Blow is a better power, full-stop. I think this version works for me, so I don't think we'll disagree. My only problem at first look is the "no reversal" clause. I may edit it a bit to show the implications of using a weapon to pin an opponent (or you can). *




What if a reversal resulted in a disarm instead of a counter-grapple?



> * On that note, the Death by Massive Damage variant is real garbage as far as game design goes. While the 3E team did a great job satisfying the idea that someone might want something like this, they made the rule too simple (probably for space considerations). Maybe you and I could work up a new variant for Death by Massive Damage or make the power more like a deathblow from an assassin (save, or die). *




I honestly didn't know I hit a variant; my original intention was simply to make it slightly more likely that this class kill something outright. More with that powerful blows thing. Originally this power lowered the threshold of the massive damage from 50 by a certain incriment per power level, but most agreed that would lead to cumbersome combats and too many times an opponent was faced with death from massive damage. I agreed. So the intent now is to make the saves harder to make when the warrior does do 50 points of damage in a hit.

But I'm up for changing things. Do you have anything in mind?


----------



## Shadeus (Sep 5, 2002)

*Comments on Forgemaster edit...*

Requirements:



> Con: 17+ (18 is too high, and odd #s work best), consider an Int requirement (for Crafting).




Why do odd numbers work best?  A 17 is fine though.  No Int requirement.  That's why you have skill ranks.  Dwarven heroes don't need to be scholars, they just need to be good with an axe and able to make their own axe.



> Special: Those seeking the title of forgemaster are already heroes in their own right. The character must have helped to save the dwarven way of life. For example, he must have been a notable help in saving a village from an orc invasion, or stopped a plot to overthrow the dwarven king. Any notable deeds deemed worthy by the GM will do.




I originally had this as a requirement but moved it to a quest when someone on the boards suggested it.

Quests:



> Editor's note: Perhaps the forgemaster should have some mystic union with the dwarven god of Craft or the dwarven creator.




I thought about some kind of mystical experience, but a forgemaster already has basically 3 quests.  I think that's enough.  More would be overkill.

Dwarven Forgemaster Abilities:



> Flesh of Stone (Ex): *snip*
> 
> (Reason for change: DR sounds like flesh of stone, while bonus hp sounds like shrug off pain.)




Good call on the name change.




> Mystic Forge Hammer (Su):  *snip*
> 
> Reasons for change: Magic vestment and magic weapon are not requirements for magic arms construction. It's too much trouble to make separate abilities for arms and armor, when the PHB doesn't. Adding the power level to the effective caster level allows a 20th-level forgemaster with this ability at level 5 to craft +5 weapons (enhancement bonus is limited to +1 per three caster levels).




Wow, good idea.  I wish I had thought of it. 



> One with the Earth (Sp): Having a mystic tie to the knowledge of stoneworking, a forgemaster is able to call upon 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells of the Earth domain. (The granted power of that domain is not gained, however.) He may use each spell once per day per power level and his effective caster level is his dwarven forgemaster class level.
> 
> Reason for change: Stone shape isn't powerful enough, so nobody would select this ability. The edited ability gives the forgemaster an array of spell ability at a minor level of power.




I disagree.  Stone shape can be very powerful.  It had a two-fold purporse as well.    Stone shape can be used to create works of art and it can also have a utility use of making a hole in a wall where there wasn't one.  A druid in our party used it to get by a trapped door.  He made his own door.

I would rather this remain the way it was: stone shape 1/day/power level.



> Tireless Champion (Ex): *snip*
> 
> Reason for change: Not suffering fatigue at all is too much. Characters don't automatically lose hp when disabled, only when dying. The ability as edited is more closely tied to power level. I must compliment the idea of this power, however




I don't see why it needs to tie to power level.  There are several legendary class abilities that are not at all tied to power level (in the two published books).  That said, I don't have a problem with the changes.



> Elemental Companion: *snip*
> Reason for changes: The edited power accomplishes everything your power did, but grants relevance to all power levels. The added familiar-like abilities allow the forgemaster communication with his ally, even if they don't share a language. I changed the XP loss to class level, because that's what it is for familiars.




Looks good.  



> Dwarven Hero (Ex):  *snip*
> Reason for changes: Variable radius makes sense, but the war cry is too powerful as part of this ability to be used more than once per day. Another option is to make the war cry a separate ability and make it more powerful altogether. Further, the forgemaster might gain a +1 circumstance bonus to Charaisma based schecks with dwarves as an automatic class feature.




For the war cry, a duration of the effect is not specified.  Allied dwarves retain this bonus while they remain in the area of effect while fighting, and for 5 rounds there after.

The rest of the changes sounded good to me.  Thanks for doing all this work Khur!


----------



## Ruavel (Sep 6, 2002)

*Maitre additional quest: Scene 1, take 2...*

Here's the revised additional quest... I intend to put this one first as there is some follow on into the original quest (as you will observe if you read it)...

as always, constructive comments are greatly appreciated...

_To truly be considered a master of fencing, the prospective maitre must bring something more to the art than just her experience with the rapier and time must be spent furthering swordplay above all other things. In her desire to improve her swordsmanship and that of others, the upcoming maitre must spend a significant period of time away from her homeland studying the fighting styles of another race or culture. The subject of her studies can be located no closer than 500 miles from the maitre’s base of operations, although some of the greatest maitre have gone so far as to spend their time studying the combat techniques of bizarre races on alternate planes. Furthermore the period of time actually spent analysing this chosen subject must be no less than 90 days total. These need not be consecutive but the research period must be completed within 180 days of its starting date.

For the study to be valid, the subject of the maitre’s research must have obvious differences from the normal fighting styles of her own culture and race. For example after spending several weeks aiding an elven community far from her home, Trinnen val Kemeer spent another four months with group of young elves as they tutored in the ways of melding their graceful swordplay with the inherent magic of their people. The elves would not teach Trinnen any aspect of these exquisite techniques but she was permitted to watch the student practice, make notes on what she saw and occasionally spar with the pupils. 

At the conclusion of her research period, the maitre should be ready to confidently challenge an exponent of this system of combat so as to demonstrate not only her own skill but also the efficacy of rapier fencing. Thanks to the time spent watching and scrutinizing the students and masters of they subject, the aspiring maitre may make and Int check (DC 15) prior to the comment of a challenge bout. If successful, the prospective maitre’s understanding of the attacks and defensive stances her opponent will use gives her a +2 Dodge bonus to her AC and a +2 circumstance bonus to attacks. Such challenges end when an opponent yields to her adversary in recognition of their superior skill, however some less honorable combatants have resorted to slaying their opponents to prove the dominance of their style.

The study of such exotic combat methods should ultimately produce a comprehensive analysis of the weapons, tactics, protective equipment, and some of the more impressive manoeuvres used by the people or school studied, their comparative strengths and weaknesses, and a discussion on the possible adaptation of any appropriate skills or equipment into the school of fencing. Before accepting a challenge from a prospective maitre (see below), some existing maitre expect the challenger to demonstrate their research, either through discussion, written analysis or physical exhibition._

I know it's a big read, but rather than just having poor Khur read everything, I thought I'd gets "everyone's" assistance...

btw - thanx for the last round of feedback... it was insightful and very useful...


----------



## Ruavel (Sep 6, 2002)

*King's Warden*

I could have sworn I already posted this edit of the King's Warden... may I did it in a dream... *shrug* who knows...

anyway, here's the King's Warden.. I think it's pretty much done... If anyone spots any layout/format errors, let me know ASAP..

thanks...


----------



## Khur (Sep 6, 2002)

> Why do odd numbers work best? No Int requirement.



I should have said that odd numbers are given value by using them as requirements; that's why you see feats with requirements of odd-numbered stats. It's your call on the Int requirement, but Int is how well a character learns and reasons. It also directly influences the Craft skill. I'd say at a minimum, the forgemaster should be required to have no Int penalty.


> I thought about some kind of mystical experience, but a forgemaster already has basically 3 quests. I think that's enough. More would be overkill.



And right you are, but the existing quests can be modified to include high-ranking clergy. Further, the final ceremony can have religious as well as secular significance. One of the *Special* requirements could be devotion to the god of craft (or what have you). The dwarven hero part of special requirements could be moved to the first quest; that is, the king and clergy give the would-be forgemaster a heroic quest, if they think he still needs to prove himself. I think that quest already states the king may test the aspirant in this way.


> One with the Earth (Sp): Having a mystic tie to the knowledge of stoneworking, a forgemaster is able to call upon 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells of the Earth domain.
> 
> I disagree. Stone shape can be very powerful. It had a two-fold purpose as well. Stone shape can be used to create works of art and it can also have a utility use....



It's your call, but the Earth Domain includes _stone shape_, as well as _soften earth and stone_, and _magic stone_. My goal in editing many of these classes was to make all of the powers so tasty that a player would agonize over them. The choice to give up casting a 3rd-level spell a few times a day isn't that hard. Have you considered the spell _stone tell_?


> Tireless Champion.... I don't see why it needs to tie to power level. There are several legendary class abilities that are not at all tied to power level (in the two published books). That said, I don't have a problem with the changes.



Well, I can't say anything for the fine staff at FFG, but my feeling was: if a power isn't tied to power level, but it's a good power, then everyone will choose that power at level one, to avoid losing the power level benefits of other abilities. If that's what you want to happen as a designer, that's fine, but it shouldn't be a side effect of not thinking the power through. Almost any power can have variable effects that can be altered by power level.

As for the books, I have no idea what they read like. I've only read an excerpt from the _Path of the Sword_ since I haven't received my prize yet. Has anyone else?


----------



## RedCliff (Sep 6, 2002)

*books*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *As for the books, I have no idea what they read like. I've only read an excerpt from the Path of the Sword since I haven't received my prize yet. Has anyone else? *




Nope. But I think Morrus was waiting on a few addresses for a while, so he only sent them to FFG a few days ago, maybe a week by now.


----------



## Khur (Sep 6, 2002)

*Warrior of the Broken Wake comments...*



> What if a reversal resulted in a disarm instead of a counter-grapple?



 Good idea! How about, a successful reversal allows just a disarm attempt? Or is that putting the poor sod on the receiving end at too much of a disadvantage?



> So the intent now is to make the saves harder to make when the warrior does do 50 points of damage in a hit.



I've seen a very tough paladin with a "burst" magic hammer and smite added in do almost forty points of damage with one blow, and nearly twenty regularly. When he hit with every attack (3) he'd do over fifty in a round at 10th-level. My interpretation of this rule was that the designers wanted to give the option, but with the variable of high–damage spells, it was too hard to make the rule "realistic" and not take a huge amount of space.

On the flip side, death blows upset players very much and can upset DMs too. It's hard to balance these types of abilities.

Heres a shot:


*Sever Life (Su):* If the warrior of the broken wake rolls another threat with any melee attack that is already a threat for a critical hit, he may elect to have the hit become a death blow. The second roll must be high enough to actually hit the target in question. If hit, the victim of this attack must succeed at a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + power level + 2 per 10 points of damage suffered, rounded up) or die instantly. Regardless of the death blow result, the victim takes normal damage from the critical hit. Creatures immune to critical hits or death by massive damage are immune to this ability as well. A warrior of the broken wake may use sever life once per day per power level.
 Is 1/day per power level too much? Consider that an assassin may use his ability an unlimited number of times per day, limited only by 3 rounds of studying the opponent and remaining unperceived as a threat.

This ability is better than the Instant Kill variant found in DMG Chapter 3, and comparable to the assassin's Death Blow, though better than that as well. (It is legendary, after all.) Perhaps a reference can be added that such a warrior can take the Improved Death Attack epic feat at epic levels, regardless of meeting the requirements.


----------



## Khur (Sep 6, 2002)

*Re: Maitre additional quest: Scene 1, take 2...*



			
				Ruavel said:
			
		

> *Here's the revised additional quest...*



What are the consequences of losing the duel in the quest? Must it then be repeated (90 more days studying the same or differing style)? Perhaps the maitre should spend time on several different styles (at least three). Those styles need not be sword styles, for the maitre is exposing herself to variant combat techniques that she may face in battle.

The 500 mile thing seems arbitrary, perhaps the rule should be that the maitre study a culture different from her own. (If she's English, Italy would count, even though it's not 500 miles.)

I still say that the maitre should have a Knowledge (war: personal combat tactics) skill requirement for this quest (even at a low number of ranks). Perhaps she is required to acquire this skill while studying, and raise it by one rank per group studied. Note that such a focused skill should get a bonus, while granting a penalty to any roll to know more general knowledge (+2/-4 or something). (Yes, it's a problem when not even Knowledge (war) is within the purview of a fighter's class skills.)

The DC for the analysis of the style in question should be higher and the bonuses yielded should only last for the first round of combat, as the maitre surprises her opponent by anticipating his first move. Afterward, good fighters would adjust to the maitre's familiarity with their style.

Finally, do challenged maitre refuse to duel an obviously ignorant aspirant (one that has not completed the first quest)?


----------



## RedCliff (Sep 6, 2002)

*Re: Warrior of the Broken Wake comments...*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> * Good idea! How about, a successful reversal allows just a disarm attempt? Or is that putting the poor sod on the receiving end at too much of a disadvantage? *




I don't really think so. The warrior has to give up all but one attack per round to maintain the hold, and is denied the possibility of a critical, so he loses a big potential to damage. I think it balances out. So saying a reversal becomes a disarm in this case works in my mind.



> * This ability is better than the Instant Kill variant found in DMG Chapter 3, and comparable to the assassin's Death Blow, though better than that as well. (It is legendary, after all.) Perhaps a reference can be added that such a warrior can take the Improved Death Attack epic feat at epic levels, regardless of meeting the requirements.*




Okay. I've heard a lot of people griping over the 50 points in a single hit means Fort save or die rule. Peronsonally, I don't have a problem with it, but I also haven't dealt with it in game yet. My party has just recently gotten members who wouldn't be killed by 50 points of damage outright anyway. So I speak purely from hypotheticals.

However, thinking over my particular gaming group, I like your idea. I know a few of my players get really excited when they roll a threat. When they roll a second one on the confirmation roll, they get a tad disappointed that it doesn't mean anything. So adding this in as a bonus seems to be a good way of keeping the excitement high. I'll go with that.

One thing though: how attached are you to making it an invoked power? I rather like the idea of it being an automatic thing. I have no mechanical reason to back that up, only an image. If this ability is invoked, it means the warrior must intentionally summon the power, making the blow extra hard. If it happens automatically, it means that theoretically every blow is this powerful, as every single strike is imbued with this power. 

Actually, I lied, I do have a mechanical reason. The odds of rolling a threat are poor. The odds of rolling two in a row are worse than doubly so (though some people I know can roll seven 1's in a row repeatedly, but I digress). If this is an invoked power, I fear it might quickly become useless. Since double threats are rare enough as it is, I don't think there's a play balance issue in letting it happen each and every time. But again, I haven't playtested this version, so I'm certainly open to feedback.


----------



## RedCliff (Sep 6, 2002)

*Sever Life*

You know what? I have no idea why, but for some reason I read the revised Sever Life completely differently. I thought the revised power worked as such:

_If you score a threat, roll the critical check as normal. If you roll within the threat range on this confirmation roll, you force the opponent to make a save or die. _ 

Now, that's not what you wrote at all, but maybe it's worth considering. With the rarity of the conditions however, maybe the tie to the power needs to be beefed up a bit (maybe +2/power level to the DC). I realize this places the DC much higher, but considering how rarely the power is likely to manifest in the first place, I don't think it risks game balance too much. 

Thoughts?


----------



## Khur (Sep 6, 2002)

*MDK*



			
				RedCliff said:
			
		

> *...saying a reversal becomes a disarm in this case works in my mind. *



Fine, it works for me.



> *Sever Life: One thing though: how attached are you to making it an invoked power? I rather like the idea of it being an automatic thing.
> 
> The odds of rolling a threat are poor. The odds of rolling two in a row are worse than doubly so. If this is an invoked power, I fear it might quickly become useless. Since double threats are rare enough as it is, I don't think there's a play balance issue in letting it happen each and every time. But again, I haven't playtested this version, so I'm certainly open to feedback. *



 I didn't mean for the power to be invoked. The wording of the power, even though it's a supernatural ability (normally a standard action to use), suggests to me that the deathblow is a potential any time the hero rolls two threats ("with *any* melee attack that is already a threat...."). The "choose" part of the ability means to me the character/player can forgo the deathblow if he wants to. I realize that it'll be rare for anyone to want to forgo a deathblow, but it could happen. I made the ability supernatural, so it's kind of a spiritual thing that's suppressed by an antimagic field. It could be argued that this is an extraordinary ability, however. 

The times per day limitation just means that the character can't go about killing everything all day long. Once he's done it X times per day (where X is the power level), he can't use the ability anymore -- spiritual reserves are exhausted.

The odds of two threats are exponentially worse, you're right. For example, if the threat range for the weapon is 20, then the chance of rolling two 20s is 5% of 5%, or .25%. Keep in mind that the smart player will have the Improved Critical feat (especially after setting his sites on this power) and may have magic items that also improve the threat range. The ability, as written, doesn't restrict the potential threat range, only that the threat be an actual hit. That's how it should be, in my opinion. But, a smart player will likely have a better threat range than 20. Perhaps instead of Weapon Focus: Two handed, the class could have Weapon Focus: any bludgeoning weapon or axe of Large size or with a critical multiplier greater than x2.

Maybe I'll playtest it before we go to final design, but I'll at least run it past another editor pal o' mine.



> * If you score a threat, roll the critical check as normal. If you roll within the threat range on this confirmation roll, you force the opponent to make a save or die.
> 
> ...maybe the tie to the power needs to be beefed up a bit (maybe +2/power level to the DC). *



That's what I thought I wrote. How is what I wrote not this? 

As for the save DC, I don't have a problem with your suggestion. Maybe the "round up" portion of the DC determination should be left off, however, so it's assumed one rounds down. This keeps the average DC around 20 (power level 3, 20 points of damage), or 18 if you lower the damage bonus to +1 per 10 points. When considering this, however, remember that an average 20th-level fighter probably has a +14 Fort without magical augmentation – he dies 30% of the time. A wizard, on the other hand, has around a +6 – he dies 65% of the time. However, a troll as +11 Fort (die 45%) and a mature adult dragon has around a +19 (die 5%, older dragons never die, unless in your campaign 1 is an automatic failure).


----------



## RedCliff (Sep 6, 2002)

*Re: MDK*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *I made the ability supernatural, so it's kind of a spiritual thing that's suppressed by an antimagic field. It could be argued that this is an extraordinary ability, however. *




No, I like it as a supernatural ability. I don't think there's any reason to change it.



> *The times per day limitation just means that the character can't go about killing everything all day long. Once he's done it X times per day (where X is the power level), he can't use the ability anymore -- spiritual reserves are exhausted.*




I get that, and it makes sense, but I wonder about playability. The statistical chances you have statted out with various creatures place the overwhelming majority of them at death less than 50% of the time. With the low chances of rolling double threats, even when magically enhanced, and then a 1/3 - 1/2 success rate when you do manage to pull it off, I think giving the power unlimited charges might be better. How off does that sound?



> *Maybe I'll playtest it before we go to final design, but I'll at least run it past another editor pal o' mine.*




Very cool. Thanks.



> *Maybe the "round up" portion of the DC determination should be left off, however, so it's assumed one rounds down. *




Sure. I believe that's standard rules anyway, so it should conform.

One last question: You noted taking the improved death blow epic feat for free. I like that, but we're not allowed to use that yet, are we? Last I heard the epic content was going to go open content, but hadn't been approved yet. Correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Khur (Sep 9, 2002)

*Death!*

Improved Death Attack is not OGC, but referring to it shouldn't be a problem. All of the Epic stuff is probably going to be in the SRD eventually. We could take the samurai approach and be bold, changing the reference only if someone says to. If we think it shouldn’t be done, then we can always state that the power can (or cannot) be modified by feats that affect deathblows, at the DM's discretion.

On that note, lurking in a message board about the OGL, SRD, and such, I learned something new. DM is not a trademark of WotC (but the unabbreviated form is). That means we can use DM, if we like. I'll correct any writing that uses GM, if the author doesn't feel like it.


----------



## Khur (Sep 9, 2002)

*More Broken Wake!*



> *...I wonder about playability. The statistical chances you have stated out with various creatures place the overwhelming majority of them at death less than 50% of the time. With the low chances of rolling double threats, even when magically enhanced, and then a 1/3 - 1/2 success rate when you do manage to pull it off, I think giving the power unlimited charges might be better. How off does that sound? *



Actually it's worse and better than you state. The fact of the matter is, most creatures don't have huge Fortitude save totals. The average is well below 10, until you start including 'high-end" critters like giants, dragons, and powerful extraplanar entities. The overwhelming majority of creatures that a 13th-level hero will face will die when this power comes into play, assuming they're below CR13, as they should be.

With a threat range of 19-20, a character threats 10% of the time, presupposing that the roll is high enough to hit. With Sever Life, he forces the save 10% of 10% of the time, or 1% of the time (quadruple the chance of a 20 threat range). Of course, this exponential progression is staggered, because 18-20 is only a 2.25% chance to force the save, while 17-20 is a straight 4%. All of this presupposes a hit on the applicable threat range as well. 17-20 is probably the maximum threat range a DM would have to deal with from this character class, considering the new weapon restriction I suggested in the requirements section. That is, this is the threat range for a character using a keen greataxe with the Improved Critical feat. We have to make sure that the ability (perhaps all abilities) can only be used with said weapons.

I'm referring to my statement: Perhaps instead of Weapon Focus: Two handed, the class could have Weapon Focus: any bludgeoning weapon or axe of Large size or with a critical multiplier greater than x2. We might add heavy mace to the list. Or we could just say any medium or larger bludgeoning or slashing weapon with an unmodified threat range of 20, excluding the light flail. I know this change will screw up the fact that your iconic character has a longspear, but does it really make sense for a guy with a longspear to go around breaking stuff?

I don't really see a balance problem with unlimited usage given the statistical improbability of an actual deathblow with low threat range weapons. But if you start adding things like greatswords or falchions, huge problems start to crop up.

A falchion has a 3-factor threat range (18-20). If one manages to triple this (using the feat and magic allowed), to 12-20, the warrior is forcing the save 20.25% of the time. A middling estimate says that 10% of this warrior's blows would kill, regardless of a foe's hit points, especially if you consider the damage he does averages 26 points on a critical with the falchion, so the save DC is 22 (23 if rounded up) if the power is level 5.

I'm still thinking about it, but that seems too high, or too powerful.


----------



## Khur (Sep 9, 2002)

*Reddist!*

Reddist,

Can you give me an opinion on keeping the druid spells and school restricitons in the guardian? Or do you favor the old power full stop?

Thanks!


----------



## MythicJustice (Sep 9, 2002)

I'm editing the True King this week and it will be released completely OGC. 

Khur - I'm writing a bit for Campaign magazine about Legendary Classes and the contest. Can you post or send me some information as to where this compilation will be housed? I know Morrus has the winners posted here and I'll be mentioning that.

-Chad


----------



## kingpaul (Sep 10, 2002)

*Deity's Weapon, v 4*

Khur,

Here you go!  Been a bit busy, and couldn't get to the revision as quickly as I would've liked.  Still mulling over the Ranged Huntsman.


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## PA (Sep 10, 2002)

*Maître d'Escrime*

The words being French, it should be "maître" and not "maitre."


----------



## RedCliff (Sep 10, 2002)

*Re: More Broken Wake!*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Perhaps instead of Weapon Focus: Two handed, the class could have Weapon Focus: any bludgeoning weapon or axe of Large size or with a critical multiplier greater than x2. We might add heavy mace to the list. Or we could just say any medium or larger bludgeoning or slashing weapon with an unmodified threat range of 20, excluding the light flail. I know this change will screw up the fact that your iconic character has a longspear, but does it really make sense for a guy with a longspear to go around breaking stuff?*




I don't have a problem with that. I origianlly required weapon focus: any axe, but enough feedback came saying that it was too limiting that I changed it. I think your suggestions are good and make perfect sense.


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## Khur (Sep 10, 2002)

*Quick take!*



			
				MythicJustice said:
			
		

> *I'm editing the True King this week and it will be released completely OGC.
> 
> Khur - I'm writing a bit for Campaign magazine about Legendary Classes and the contest. Can you post or send me some information as to where this compilation will be housed?*



 Does that mean we can use the True King in the book? I'm hoping we get hosted here and/or FFG's site. d20 Dwarf hasn't been around here for a while, so we'll see. I'll let you know as soon as I do.

Paul, thanks for the deity's weapon update.

Thanks to PA for the accent symbol usage. On that note, what would the name of the maître class be if it were in English?

Redcliff, will you be adding the weapon requirement to your class, or should I add it to the version I have here? Then you think we should make Sever Life unlimited, correct?

Sorry, I don't have so much time today, I have some pressing freelance work to get on.

Thanks.


----------



## PA (Sep 10, 2002)

*Re: Quick take!*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Thanks to PA for the accent symbol usage. On that note, what would the name of the maître class be if it were in English?
> *




Literally, "Maître d'Escrime" = "Fencing Master"

This said, in France, a fencing master is rather called a "maître d'armes": literally, a "master of weapons", which is more generic, but it came to designate a fencing master at a time when fencing weapons were about the only weapons commonly used (Renaissance and later).


----------



## RedCliff (Sep 10, 2002)

*Re: Quick take!*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> * Redcliff, will you be adding the weapon requirement to your class, or should I add it to the version I have here? Then you think we should make Sever Life unlimited, correct? *




I don't think it really matters who does it. If you like, I can make all the edits (I think we're in agreement on everything now) and re-post the doc. Or you can modify the version you have. The end result is the same, as it seems we also both have freelance deadlines coming soon.

And yes, I believe the agreement we reached was that given the odds of the power activating, Sever Life is not limited in the number of times it can fire.


----------



## MythicJustice (Sep 10, 2002)

*Re: Quick take!*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> * Does that mean we can use the True King in the book? I'm hoping we get hosted here and/or FFG's site. d20 Dwarf hasn't been around here for a while, so we'll see. I'll let you know as soon as I do.
> 
> <SNIP>
> Thanks.
> ...




Yes, the True King can be used. My deadline for the article is Friday. You can contact me at mythicjustice@jinzoo.com

-Chad


----------



## Ruavel (Sep 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by PA_
> *Literally, "Maître d'Escrime" = "Fencing Master"
> 
> This said, in France, a fencing master is rather called a "maître d'armes": literally, a "master of weapons", which is more generic, but it came to designate a fencing master at a time when fencing weapons were about the only weapons commonly used (Renaissance and later).*




wow, could it be that there is a fellow serious fencing enthusiast here...?!

I had toyed with the idea of using the more traditional name of Maitre d'Armes, but I thought that it may be a little too confusing for those who aren't heavily entrenched in the international fencing community...

these days, the school under which I have done my coaching accrediation uses d'Escrime instead of d'Armes, but that likewise is to avoid confusion... (not that I've gone that fair with my coaching either, spending too much time competing to be a serious coach... )

anyway, back to the thread proper... I'm nearly through the Maitre, but I'm still not happy with the second quest... some of the elements people have suggested have been useful but some don't fit at all with the 'spirit' of the LgC...

hope I can have it done by the end of this week though...


----------



## PA (Sep 11, 2002)

Ruavel said:
			
		

> *wow, could it be that there is a fellow serious fencing enthusiast here...?!*




I have taken up fencing when I was about 7 and studied both in France and in Scotland. In spite of our having an ancient Olympic champion as a coach, I never was that good. My motions always stayed too bold/wide, and the saber being my weapon of choice, the advantage of my height was nearly completely negated... as my opponent would just whip at my wrist to get the point.




			
				Ruavel said:
			
		

> *I had toyed with the idea of using the more traditional name of Maitre d'Armes, but I thought that it may be a little too confusing for those who aren't heavily entrenched in the international fencing community...*




Do you think most people would understand "maître d'escrime" anyway? I mean, the closest word to "escrime" in the English language is "escrima," which is a short pair of sticks fighting style.




			
				Ruavel said:
			
		

> *these days, the school under which I have done my coaching accrediation uses d'Escrime instead of d'Armes, but that likewise is to avoid confusion... (not that I've gone that fair with my coaching either, spending too much time competing to be a serious coach... )*




Ah, things change... Where is the school situated?


----------



## Khur (Sep 11, 2002)

*Cool, but...*



			
				PA said:
			
		

> *Do you think most people would understand "maître d'escrime" anyway? I mean, the closest word to "escrime" in the English language is "escrima," which is a short pair of sticks fighting style.*



Escrima is actually a Filipino word (not English), which is derived from the Spanish "esgrima" (fencing). It's not just stick fighting either, it's a school of martial arts.

As an aside, I'm glad PA and Rauvel have stuff in common, but please don't get into discussions of fencing, and your enthusiasm for it, in this thread unless it's somehow relevant to the topic. I'd love to see a new thread dedicated to the topic alone, so I can learn from the educated. Please invite us, if you guys decide to do that. A thread on fencing and realism in gaming would be a welcome thing. Of course, the next Dragon will have a whole "Swashbuckling" section as a Campaign Components article. 



Back on topic, I was wondering if the maître d'escrime class shouldn't have an English name instead?

Redcliff, can you make those changes to the Forgemaster and send them to me? I may also have a proposal for you.

Thanks all!


----------



## RedCliff (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: Cool, but...*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Redcliff, can you make those changes to the Forgemaster and send them to me? I may also have a proposal for you.*




Wow, a proposal. That sounds cool. Alas, I can't make any changes to the Forgemaster, not in good conscience anyway, as it wasn't my submission.   I did the Warrior of the Broken Wake and the Storm.


----------



## PA (Sep 11, 2002)

Khur said:
			
		

> *Escrima is actually a Filipino word (not English), which is derived from the Spanish "esgrima" (fencing).*




What I meant is that Escrima is used as such in English, just as Karate (Japanese) or Taekwondo (Korean) are, while there is another name in English for the French word "escrime," and that's "fencing."




			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *It's not just stick fighting either, it's a school of martial arts.*



.

My bad. All the escrima I've seen demonstrated was with the short sticks; I guess it is because they wanted the demo to look better, and their style different from other martial arts.




			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *As an aside, I'm glad PA and Rauvel have stuff in common, but please don't get into discussions of fencing, and your enthusiasm for it, in this thread unless it's somehow relevant to the topic.*



.

It was. We've been discussing about the title "maître d'escrime" and its pertinence. We both gave tidbits about our background so to lend credence to our assertions. In no post do we only discuss about our experience in fencing (which would not be much, for me, anyway).

Now I think about it, there is another possible French title: "fine lame."

A "fine lame" is, literally, an "excellent blade." i.e. a great fencer, an expert swordsman.

No risk of confusion and it sounds good too.


----------



## Khur (Sep 12, 2002)

*Ooops...*



			
				RedCliff said:
			
		

> *Wow, a proposal. That sounds cool. Alas, I can't make any changes to the Forgemaster, not in good conscience anyway, as it wasn't my submission.   I did the Warrior of the Broken Wake and the Storm. *



Dang! I meant Shadeus!

I think I'm getting punchy from looking at the screen too long!



			
				PA said:
			
		

> *Now I think about it, there is another possible French title: "fine lame." *




"Fine lame" isn't so good because of what those words can be taken for in English. Think about it ... "fine" and "lame". I'm glad you both have experience in fencing. BTW, I wasn't talking about anything you HAD pasted here in suggesting that you not discuss fencing here, although I did notice you asked Rauvel where his school was.


----------



## Ruavel (Sep 12, 2002)

*Maite d'Escrime...*



> _Originally posted by PA_
> *Do you think most people would understand "maître d'escrime" anyway?*



good point...



> _Originally posted by Khur_
> *Back on topic, I was wondering if the maître d'escrime class shouldn't have an English name instead?*



that may make things a little easier for the average gamer, but I'd like a few people's opinion on this... I used Maitre d'Escrime instead of Fencing Master to reflect an element of the elitism and pretensiousness that existed in the masters of old and has permiated into the modern sport... but I'm happy to have others reading the thread comment on preference (preferably with some reason behind it, too...)



> _Originally posted by Khur_
> *I'd love to see a new thread dedicated to the topic alone, so I can learn from the educated.*



where should such a thread be started...? General Discussion...?

and last, but by no means least, attached is the most recent draft of the Maitre...


----------



## Khur (Sep 17, 2002)

*I'm back!*

Sorry I've been short on the posts for a few days ... I was just finishing some paying freelance work.  I'll post more soon ... right now I'm real tired.

For your entertainment:

Is Hasbro/WotC Mismanaging D&D -- a poll by a veteran gamer with a bit too much bile!

and

Tracy Hickman's ill-advised rant. -- in case you didn't see what the Dragonlance author thinks of vile material!

Thanks everyone!


----------



## RedCliff (Sep 17, 2002)

*Book?*

While we're just passing around information, has anyone received their copy of Path of the Sword yet? I'm still waiting on mine, and the more reviews I read about it the more I'm wondering how much longer I can hold out.


----------



## MythicJustice (Sep 17, 2002)

*Re: Book?*



			
				RedCliff said:
			
		

> *While we're just passing around information, has anyone received their copy of Path of the Sword yet? I'm still waiting on mine, and the more reviews I read about it the more I'm wondering how much longer I can hold out. *




Nope. Havn't gotten mine yet either.

-Chad


----------



## RedCliff (Sep 17, 2002)

*Re: Maite d'Escrime...*



			
				Ruavel said:
			
		

> * that may make things a little easier for the average gamer, but I'd like a few people's opinion on this... I used Maitre d'Escrime instead of Fencing Master to reflect an element of the elitism and pretensiousness that existed in the masters of old and has permiated into the modern sport... but I'm happy to have others reading the thread comment on preference (preferably with some reason behind it, too...)*




I think you might be okay with maître d'armes. It comes across as clearly French (and still keeps the elitist ring you're looking for), but armes is close enough to the English arms, that a reader is likely to infer a waepon of somekind. And let's face it, when you think French weaponary, given the period context, you're most likely going to think of a fencing sword. It's what they're truly famous for. 

When I saw the original title maître d'escrime, I immediately assumed something French, but just as Khur was, I was thrown by escrime, confusing it with the Philappeno martial art as well. With maître d'armes I think you'll be close enough to the English not to lose too many people, and still retain the ring you want.

All IMO, of course.


----------



## Khur (Sep 17, 2002)

*I have no book...*

No book have I. Ah well, bittersweet anticipation!

Just a quick comment, I agree with Redcliff on the maître d'armes point. Good call.


----------



## Khur (Sep 22, 2002)

*Forging ahead!*

Here's the scoop. I've gotten a bunch of freelance work, so I have to work on that, but I still want to finish this book. It'll just be a bit slower now, but I'm gonna put myself on a schedule. I'm editing everyone's work, and I'll post what I consider to be the final here. If I sent you back a version of your class, and you haven't sent me your responses to my edit, I'm going to assume my changes are fine. If the changes are extensive, you'll get less credit for the final piece (perhaps).

Don't bother to ask me if you're in that boat if you've been participating heavily. You know who you are. Good work all around.

On that note, the recent version of Deity's Weapon looks much better.

I'll keep posting regular updates. When it gets close to layout time, we'll start talking art. Feel free to send me art, if you like.

Thanks everyone!


----------



## Ruavel (Sep 23, 2002)

*Re: Forging Ahead*



> _Originally posted by Khur_
> *Here's the scoop. I've gotten a bunch of freelance work, so I have to work on that, but I still want to finish this book. It'll just be a bit slower now, but I'm gonna put myself on a schedule. I'm editing everyone's work, and I'll post what I consider to be the final here.*



Grats on landing the freelance work... hope it all goes well...

If I can be of any assistance to you while you're dealing with your 'real' work, let me know...

that said, I'm going to be more or less unavailable for 2 weeks as of this weekend (State Fencing Championships this weekend and then I fly to Sydney for the National Championships)... but I will find a way to check the boards as often as possible while I'm gone and will be ready to go again as soon as I get home...


----------



## Ruavel (Sep 30, 2002)

*wish me luck...*

well people, in less than 10 hours I'll be on a plane to Sydney and I'll find out if the months of training and hard work have paid off...

I'll be without convenient net access for about a week and then without access to my LgC drafts for about another week after that but if there's any progress in this project I'll do my best to keep up and make sure things don't fall behind due to my absense...

wish me luck... I go to face my doom at the hands of the best fencers in this country... (eep!)


----------



## RedCliff (Sep 30, 2002)

*Re: wish me luck...*



			
				Ruavel said:
			
		

> *wish me luck... I go to face my doom at the hands of the best fencers in this country... (eep!) *




Best of luck to you. May your fear be the worst of it.


----------



## Khur (Sep 30, 2002)

*Good luck!*

Tell us how you did Rauvel. Work will continue here, but mostly on my end.


----------



## d20Dwarf (Sep 30, 2002)

*Re: I have no book...*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *No book have I. Ah well, bittersweet anticipation!
> 
> *




So, Khur, Redcliff, Mythic.....who else was a winner that hasn't received their book? If you guys, the three I mentioned included, would kindly email me your info I'll get the books out right away.

Looks like I have contact info for Khur and Yuan-Ti....anyone else that won the contest email me your name, address, and EN World identity and I'll get on it.

Also, if anyone wants to donate one of their extras to Paul let me know.


----------



## Ruavel (Oct 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RedCliff_
> *Best of luck to you. May your fear be the worst of it.*





> _Originally posted by Khur_
> *l us how you did Rauvel. Work will continue here, but mostly on my end.*




thanx for the well-wishes guys... it appears to have helped...

with 9 months training after a two & a half year break, I managed to fight my way into 13th place in my prefered weapon (the foil)... given that my best result before my break from the sport was 16th (over 3 years ago) I'm pretty damn happy with being the 13th best foilist in this country... (we'll try not to talk about my epee results too much  )

next year I'll try for the top 8...

Khur, I'm still away from home but I'm now at a friend's house with regular access to a computer and I do have my drafts with me if you come across anything that needs to be done on the Maitre or the King's Warden...


----------



## kingpaul (Oct 14, 2002)

*Re: Good luck!*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Work will continue here, but mostly on my end. *



Khur,

How're things going?  Any other comments on my LgC?


----------



## reddist (Oct 14, 2002)

*two things*

1-- UPS has delivered my Path of the Sword book, and I get to read it tonight.  Woo!  I've seen it in the local shop, but refused to even look through it, knowing mine was coming.


2-- Khur, I'm back and ready to add or edit anything you need to either of my LgCs.  Just let me know.

Thanks,

Reddist


----------



## Ruavel (Oct 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by me..._
> *Khur, I'm still away from home but I'm now at a friend's house with regular access to a computer and I do have my drafts with me if you come across anything that needs to be done on the Maitre or the King's Warden...*



scratch that comment... I now home properly, fully rested after the competition and ready to rock (or write as thet case may be)...

although I may be out of circulation for a day or two as soon as my copy of Path of the Sword arrives...


----------



## Khur (Oct 15, 2002)

*Ack!*

Here's the scoop: I'm writing a bunch now (and doing cartography) for game companies as a freelancer. I also have a full-time job. That doesn't mean I won't finish our work together, it just may take a little longer than I'd planned. (Obviously, I suppose.) 

I hope to get something out by the beginning of next week, like what I consider to be the final versions of the LgCs. I'll link them here so everyone can take a gander. Once the author's sign off, it's on to design stage. We need artists too, preferably those that just want a portfolio piece, since we can't pay anyone. 

I hope that's okay with everyone, and I apologize I'm so slow.

Thanks all.


----------



## kingpaul (Oct 15, 2002)

*Re: Ack!*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *We need artists too, preferably those that just want a portfolio piece, since we can't pay anyone. *



Well, I can do sorry-looking stick-figures.


----------



## Khur (Oct 20, 2002)

*Okay ...*

I need the following things:

Everyone email me with your name as you'd like it to appear in the credits. Include which class(es) you worked on in the email.

I need the final author's edit (if any) for the:

The Neclord
Dwarven Forgemaster
The Juxaspect
The Brawler
The Diety's Weapon (Word doc format please)

If I don't receive these, I'll assume what I have is the final. As for the Neclord, it'll be my judgement how it comes out, since the author hasn't revised it, or responded to my comments.

Thanks all!


----------



## Khur (Oct 20, 2002)

*One more thing...*

Oh, and if anyone wants a dedication in the netbook, feel free to send me one.


----------



## kingpaul (Oct 20, 2002)

*Re: Okay ...*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *The Diety's Weapon (Word doc format please)*



And I thought putting it in *.htm* format would make it easier to read on everyone.


----------



## Ruavel (Oct 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Khur_
> *I need the following things:*



do you still want iconics/sample characters submitted...?

I've nearly finished one and have started the other, but if you don't need or want them, I'll stop...


----------



## Khur (Oct 21, 2002)

*Well...*



			
				kingpaul said:
			
		

> *And I thought putting it in *.htm* format would make it easier to read on everyone. *



 It was easy to read, but now I need something I can use to do the layout more easily. HTML tables don't translate well in InDesign without some acrobatics. Thanks Paul! 



			
				Rauvel said:
			
		

> *do you still want iconics/sample characters submitted...?*



I want anything any of you want me to include, but it needs to be good, and is subject to editing. There are no real space limitations (it is going to be a PDF after all). 

Just have fun.


----------



## Ruavel (Oct 21, 2002)

*Anything...?*



> _Originally posted by Khur_
> *I want anything any of you want me to include, but it needs to be good, and is subject to editing.*



then I guess the next question is, has any body else bothered to submit anything other than just their LgCs...?

or (for any of the other writers) is anyone intending to submit sample characters and just not finished them yet...?


----------



## reddist (Oct 21, 2002)

I wouldn't mind adding a NPC for each of mine, but it will be the weekend before I could send along anything polished.

Since I got my new job, I don't have nearly the kind of free time I used to.  No more writing at work! 

-Reddist


----------



## RedCliff (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: Anything...?*



			
				Ruavel said:
			
		

> *then I guess the next question is, has any body else bothered to submit anything other than just their LgCs...?*




I gave an iconic character for both the classes I submitted, but I was under the impression at the time that such things were absolutely mandatory for participation in this project. 

Though if you think about it, providing an iconic character might help with illustrating the class, as the artist will have something more specific than the general concept the class represents. Hardly required for an illustration, of course, and as I don't know anything about drawing it might even stifle someone's creativity, but it sounds decent enough in theory.


----------



## Ruavel (Oct 21, 2002)

well, sounds to me like I'd better get going and finish the sample characters off...

now that the Bottled Imp Games spell comp is finished (or I've finished my entries at least), I've got a bit more "RPG spare time"...

: )

(btw - did anyone else here submit to the B.I.G. spell competition...?)

RedCliff, how much of your character was description and how much was stat block...? did you equip him/her with PC or NPC recommended gp values...?

Khur, I'll try to get the sample characters to you by the end of this week...


----------



## RedCliff (Oct 22, 2002)

Ruavel said:
			
		

> *RedCliff, how much of your character was description and how much was stat block...? did you equip him/her with PC or NPC recommended gp values...?*




Sorry about the lag, I've had troubles getting onto the boards lately.

My characters were several paragraphs of historical description, giving a brief overview of their adventuring careers and how they reached the point they did, and then a stat block. Off the top of my head I can't give you a specific breakdown in terms of entry space each occupied, but the description seemed bigger. In my mind stats were stats, and while important to get right, it was the story of the character that would better illustrate one possible application of the legendary class.

I did equip the characters, though I didn't necessarily go with the recommended gold values. If anything, I erred on the side of poverty.


----------



## Ruavel (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RedCliff_
> *Sorry about the lag, I've had troubles getting onto the boards lately.*



no need to apologise for something that's not your fault...



Sounds like you've done something similar to what I had in mind... at least we may manage to keep some consistancy this way...

although thinking about it, I've equiped one of the sample characters using the PC recommended gold values and that seems like way too much so I'll bring it more in line with NPC and see how that looks...


----------



## Khur (Oct 23, 2002)

*Alrighty!*

Couldn't get to the boards all day!  But, I'm here now!

Here's what's "final" so far:

Warrior of the Broken Wake 
Deity's Weapon (now Divine Weapon) 
King's Warden
Maitre d'Escrime
Nimrod
Storm

I don't have a final for Reddist's stuff, because I'm waiting to hear from him about some editing issues. The Forgemaster's latest edit got lost somehow ... Shadeus, I need a new copy (or did you ever do more than clear up things in the discussion here?). (Sorry.) I don't have the Neclord here, because he's getting left out if his author doesn't do revisions, or at least tell me he approves mine. Anyone else that's not here, isn't necessarily out, but if you want in I need your class (The True King, etc.). I don't have the time, energy, nor the inclination to hunt it up.

Read yours over. If you see any mistakes, point 'em out to me. I may have put comments on yours, I may not have. I may have changed something. Feel free to ask me whatever you want to know.

I took the liberty of doing one thing here fellahs, but if you don't like it I can change yours back. That liberty was: I used some feats from _Path of the Sword_ as prereqs for some of the classes, where it made sense. That serves the purpose of supporting the book by which we were all inspired (and all got for free). It also gives these LgCs a unique edge as bonus material for _Path of the Sword_.

The problem is that this affects your iconic characters, who'll have to be tweaked to meet the new prereq list. If you included iconic characters, see this document for an example on how to lay out the statblock:

Guardian of the Green 

Make the character as complete as you can, but have fun for goodness sake. Don't do it if it's a chore. Just realize I'll check it for accuracy and such.

Finally, tell me what you want to be OGC and what you want to keep PI. Technically, the LgCs themselves are closed content, besides the stuff derivative of the SRD. When we get to the final stage, we'll need d20 Dwarf's input on how to handle publication.

It looks like the final document will be illustrated and designed, with 10 or more LgCs. Sweet!

Thanks everyone.


----------



## RedCliff (Oct 23, 2002)

*Finals*

I didn't see any edits for the Storm, so I didn't change anything with it. I rewrote the section of the Wbw was requested.

In looking over the iconic character example, I noticed a large difference in the amount of information presented in your posted example and what I had, however, I simply have too much pay work to detail the iconic characters to that extent. So if that is to be the standard, feel free to axe mine. I won't cry too much, maybe just a manly tear or two.


----------



## Khur (Oct 24, 2002)

*Fine!*

That's okay Redcliff, I just meant the statblock format. Sorry for any confusion. If I had to write that much now, I'd have to give it a pass too. I wrote that stuff a while back ... and went kind of wild. It was fun though. That's my ultimate point ... if you'd enjoy doing it, do more, if not, no worries.

What you've done is great!


----------



## Khur (Oct 29, 2002)

*Hmmmm...*

Are people having trouble getting to EN World? Is that why there's so little response here? Or, have I made you all mad in some way? (kidding)

Whatever's going on ... bump!


----------



## Ruavel (Oct 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted Khur_
> *Are people having trouble getting to EN World? Is that why there's so little response here? Or, have I made you all mad in some way?*



maybe (like me) they're all trying to get some final work done on their submissions...

 

I went through the final drafts of the the King's Warden and the Maitre and I'm really happy with how you've rounded them off...

found one minor typo in the Maitre but I'll correct that when I attach the stat blocks and backgrounds for the sample characters... (one 95% completed and the other about 95% to go )

will try to get something done in the next few days..


----------



## Khur (Oct 29, 2002)

*Cool!*

Don't sweat anything guys. 

I probably found the typo you're talking about, but any help is welcome. I have to go through these one more time, just to polish them a bit more, then we're set. I have some artists on the hook, so we'll see how it goes.

Thanks everyone.


----------



## Ruavel (Nov 4, 2002)

*Sample dude...*

anyone feel like having a look at this sample character and giving me some feedback about how it looks/reads and what may or may not need adding...?

thanx people...


----------



## Ruavel (Nov 6, 2002)

marvel at the subtlety of my bump....

no, wait...!  that sounds a little crass...


----------



## Khur (Nov 6, 2002)

*Wade Braddock*

The only problem I see with Wade is his skill ranks come out to 100, when my calculations indicate he should have 120. That, of course, depends on when he gained his Intelligence of 12. If you could show me your math, it would help. 

Cool character.


----------



## Khur (Nov 6, 2002)

*Info*

I missed Tallow's post (in August!) about the Spirit of the Beast class, so I contacted him, and he may be joining the book. I'd like to publicly apologize to Tallow for missing that post.

Here are some other classes that need work by their respective authors if they are to be included:

Neclord
Elf Lord
True King

I need copies to edit for the latter two, if the authors want to work on them. If anyone knows the authors of any of these, inform them of what's going on. If nothing happens regarding them soon, I'll just assume the writer decided to pull out.

The Dwarven Forgemaster is edited, in the agreed upon manner, so I don't think it needs anything else unless Shadeus wants to add anything.

I have art for the Nimrod by the author himself. I'll be contacting a potential artist or two soon, if Daniel Muck fails to get back to me.

Any questions?



EDIT: Oh yeah, and I'm still wondering if I screwed up royally and somehow lost the latest editions of Reddist's classes. Let me know.


----------



## Ruavel (Nov 7, 2002)

> _Oringally posted by Khur_
> *The only problem I see with Wade is his skill ranks come out to 100, when my calculations indicate he should have 120. That, of course, depends on when he gained his Intelligence of 12. If you could show me your math, it would help.
> 
> Cool character.*



Thanks...

I've got all the character creation details somewhere, so I'll go over them and double check everything... I thought I had gotten it all right, but I may well have missed something along the way...

a few times I had to stop myself turning the background into the 20-page piece of short prose...  I hope it didn't end up too long...


----------



## Khur (Nov 7, 2002)

*Too long?*

Nothing's too long or unacceptable, so long as it's fun to create and passes a certain standard. The fun, and occasional lauds from people who see this project, are about all we're going to get. I do hope that those who want freelance work can use the piece as part of their CV.

In the end, it looks like we'll be hosted on EN World as a fan project, with a cross-link from FFG's site. The final PDF should be good enough to stir up some notice though, considering all of you guys' writing and hard work. Maybe we'll even be a news feature on the front page.

Here's hoping.


----------



## Ruavel (Nov 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Khur_
> *Nothing's too long or unacceptable, so long as it's fun to create and passes a certain standard. The fun, and occasional lauds from people who see this project, are about all we're going to get. I do hope that those who want freelance work can use the piece as part of their CV.*



creating Wade certainly was fun... that's why it was hard to keep the background story to something that can be read in one sitting...



I'm located the character creation info and I'll review that skill point issue you raised... if any changes need to be made, I'll make them to the final King's Warden doc (which will obviously include the sample character) and post it here in the next few days...

then I can finish Trinnen, the Maitre sample character...


----------



## Ruavel (Nov 8, 2002)

*eureka...!*

solved the skills points issue...

I had initially toyed with the idea of Wade having 4 levels of fighter and that's where the skill points allocation came from...

I've redone his skills from scratch and will update the stat block, finish with equipment list, paste him in the LgC description doc and post it here in a few hours (barring natural or work related disasters)...



that said he still only has 110 skill points & 105 ranks...


----------



## Khur (Nov 8, 2002)

*Here's my math...*

Cool Rauvel … skills for high-level NPCs can be a pain. Here's how I came up with my figures for Wade:

(4 Rgr + 1 (human) + 1 (12 Int) = 6) x 4 = 24 initial ranks
6 ranks per level (both Rgr and Kiw get the same amount) x 16 (levels 2 – 17) = 96 level ranks
96 + 24 = 120

Skills: Heal +15 (11 + 4 Wis), Hide +19 (13 + 6 Dex), Knowledge (local) +9 (8 (16 skill points cross-class) + 1 Int), Knowledge (nature) +11 (10 + 1 Int); Listen +14 (10 + 4 Wis), Move Silently +19 (13 + 6 Dex), Spot +14 (10 + 4 Wis), Wilderness Lore +21 (15 + 4 Wis + 2 Skill Focus).

98 skill ranks spent total … I forgot the Skill Focus on Wilderness Lore in my earlier post. The Intelligence modifier may have come into play at later levels, but I assumed 1st here.

Just letting you know. If I made an error above, feel free to point and laugh. Since you're redoing them from scratch, it doesn't really matter.


----------



## Ruavel (Nov 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Khur_
> *Just letting you know. If I made an error above, feel free to point and laugh. Since you're redoing them from scratch, it doesn't really matter.*




any pointing and laughing in this instance should be targeted at myself, Khur... I made the mistake of not double-checking everything...

anyway, I think he's ready now so here he is... in full... larger than life... blah blah blah...


----------



## Khur (Nov 9, 2002)

*Right on!*

Decidedly off-topic:

BTW Rauvel, I'm considering moving to New Zealand in about 3 years. I just wanted to let you know, if I start a game company there, we still "know" each other, and you're game, you're hired. I realize that the land of kiwis is a hop, but it might be worth considering. 

Of course, many others here could serve as freelancers!

Good work everyone.


----------



## Khur (Nov 14, 2002)

*Forward...*

I've compiled the classes, besides the new King's Warden, and I have a little bit o' work to do on Reddist's stuff. I'm lollygagging mostly because some stuff isn't finished by the authors, and I'm waiting on the artist to send me some samples.

There is progress.


----------



## Ruavel (Nov 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Khur_
> *BTW Rauvel, I'm considering moving to New Zealand in about 3 years. I just wanted to let you know, if I start a game company there, we still "know" each other, and you're game, you're hired. I realize that the land of kiwis is a hop, but it might be worth considering.*



If you're even vaguely serious, that's an amazing vote of confidence, and I'm more than just a little smacked... but deeply grateful...



> *I've compiled the classes, besides the new King's Warden, and I have a little bit o' work to do on Reddist's stuff. I'm lollygagging mostly because some stuff isn't finished by the authors, and I'm waiting on the artist to send me some samples.*



I hope the updated King's Warden hasn't caused any problems or delays... the updated Maitre should be only a few days away, if there's still time for it... I stalled a little on some of the background story but it's moving again (slowly) and should the finished and proofed very soon...

if it's too late, not needed, or even unwanted, let me know...


----------



## Khur (Nov 14, 2002)

*Seriously*

Yes I'm serious. Seeing how talented and hard working you guys are makes me wish I could hire you all for something or other, but I'm just a poor guy from Virginia. I do, in fact, plan on moving to New Zealand, and I do plan on making games there. We'll see.

No worries on the delays ... it's been this long after all, and I'm waiting on art.

I must admit I don't know what: "I'm more than just a little smacked...." means.

Cheers all. Hopefully nobody's too PO'd about the slow nature of this project. If you are, speak up!


----------



## Ruavel (Nov 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jhur_
> *I must admit I don't know what: "I'm more than just a little smacked...." means.*




err... I meant "gob-smacked"... speachless, etc

I'll try to ger Trinnen finished today or over the weekend and post her here as soon as she's done... in the meantime, if you find any other problems with Wade, let me know and I'll fix 'em ASAP...


----------



## Ruavel (Nov 18, 2002)

*Trinnen val Kemeer*

can you believe it...?!?  she's finally finished... I hope...



tell me what you think, people...


----------



## Khur (Nov 21, 2002)

*Artist for hire! SOLD!*

Great news folks! The edits are virtually final and we're almost ready for the design stage. More importantly, a _*freakin' great*_ artist volunteered to help out with the illustrations. He won't begin until after December 10th, but it will be worth the wait. You can see his work at these sites:

Jeremy Dylan Mohler
JDM on Elfwood

Many of these images are older work, and Jeremy's just finished another year of school, so more work will be up soon. He may even do a color cover for the PDF. Jeremy's worked for Kenzer & Co., Silverthorne Games, and ICE, among others.

I, for one, am stoked!


----------



## RedCliff (Nov 21, 2002)

That is totally awesome news, and awesome artwork. This thing might very well look good enough to go to print. That's impressive.

Way to go Khur!


----------



## Ruavel (Nov 22, 2002)

I think RedCliff summed it up perfectly...

Awesome...! absolutely awesome...! I can't wait to see what he does with this project...


----------



## Khur (Nov 22, 2002)

*More Information...*

I'm glad you're happy!

Jeremy wants to push his skills with this one, so he's planning on using a technique similar to the one's posted, but more tonal in value. He agreed, however, that he'd change if I didn't like the result. So, I think this little project is gonna have a professional look and feel, thanks to great writing and art.

The final edit is done today. If you guys actually want to see the compiled work, I'll post it. Otherwise, it's on to the next round ... and the text goes to the artist.


----------



## reddist (Nov 22, 2002)

I'd love to see what you've got

Thanks muchly for pulling up my slack too, Khur.  You were absolutely the right choice for heading this project up, and I hope it does your CV a world of good.

Reddist


----------



## kingpaul (Nov 22, 2002)

*Re: More Information...*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *The final edit is done today.*



Sugar!  I take it that its to late to get an NPC in then?  I've been swampe with work, school and family recently that I haven't gotten one together.  If it is, that's OK.


----------



## Khur (Nov 24, 2002)

*Well...*

I'm glad everyone seems to be happy (thanks for the compliments and well wishes).

When I said final, I meant final edit on what I have (actually besides the characters--see below). I don't mind more input if anyone has anything they'd like to add. I won't be working on the final design until I have art, so we can add anything up until then.

That said, I'd like persons who have submitted (or do submit) a character to show me their math. This takes a heck of a lot of the time out of editing characters. So, since you should have that math somewhere, please send it to me.

FYI, Wil Upchurch told me recently that he was excited to see what we finally came up with, since he really likes LgCs. I hope we knock his Minnesota winter boots off! (And those things stay on for like 9 months at a time.)

Poor attempts at Great White North humor aside, thanks everyone!


----------



## Khur (Nov 26, 2002)

*Compiled!*

For reddist, and other interested parties get the compiled LgC document here. The red sections are those for which I'm waiting on math so I can check them. I _may_ hard edit the Neclord for the book still too, but only if I have time. 

I'm eagerly awaiting Paul's Divine Weapon iconic, or whatever else may come.

I plan on creating two characters (once again if I have time) for the book as follows:

Storm -- an alternate character who's primarily a sorcerer (and all woman), Gydd.
Dwarven Forgemaster -- an iconic forgemaster, Macarn Eog (that clan name a little tribute to Middle Earth RPG's Moria).
Juxaspect -- "One" perhaps.

If the author's object, that's fine ... just let me know.

Thanks all.

_C_


----------



## kingpaul (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: Compiled!*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *I'm eagerly awaiting Paul's Divine Weapon iconic, or whatever else may come.*



He's not done, but here's what I have so far...life's been *extremely* hectic as of late.  I used PCGen to create him, so the skill points are, I believe, correct.



> *Kaob*: Male Human Class(es):Fighter 4 Paladin 8 Warhammer of Ch’Tal 5 Size: Medium HP: 112 Init: +5; Spd: Walk 20'ft. AC: 35 Atk = +22/+17/+12/+7 melee, +18/+13/+8/+3 ranged *Special Abilities*: Aura of Courage, Detect Evil, Divine Awareness V (Blindsight 25’, Darkvision, Lowlight vision, Scent, Tremorsense), Divine Grace, Divine Health, Divine Shield I, Ideal Critical IV, Lay on Hands 24 hp/day, Might of the Eternal II, Remove Disease 2/week, Smite Evil 1/day, Smite of the Favored III, Special Mount, Turn Undead 6/day (as an 11th level cleric), Uncanny dodge (Dex to AC) AL: Lawful Good Saves: Fort +24, Ref +13, Will +15 STR:20, DEX:12, CON:12, INT:16, WIS:16, CHA:17, Height:6' 2", Weight:184 lbs
> *Skills*: Climb +4, Concentration +6, Craft (Armorsmithing) +7, Craft (Weaponsmithing) +6, Diplomacy +13, Handle Animal +15, Heal +23, Jump +4, Knowledge (Religion) +25, Ride +16, Spellcraft +10, Swim +-3
> *Chosen Feats*: Alertness, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (Warhammer), Improved Initiative, Leadership, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Knowledge (Religion)), Weapon Focus (Warhammer), Weapon Specialization (Warhammer)
> *Automatic Feats*: Armor Proficiency (Heavy), Armor Proficiency (Light), Armor Proficiency (Medium), Martial Weapon Proficiency, Shield Proficiency, Simple Weapon Proficiency
> ...




_Edit_: Added bolds


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## Khur (Nov 27, 2002)

*gods...*

That's cool Paul. Just do me a favor, and use a statblock format similar to those already in the document. Are you going to tell anything about Kaob's diety?


----------



## kingpaul (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: gods...*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Are you going to tell anything about Kaob's diety?*



That's the plan.  Probably will have some time over the holiday to do it.


----------



## Khur (Nov 27, 2002)

*Essskellent!*

Looking forward to it Paul.


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## Ruavel (Nov 28, 2002)

hi people...

I'm condensing all the mathematical details for the sample characters into one document to make it easier to go through...

I'll try to have it done ASAP, but I have an interview today (for a job I'm already doing) which I need to prepare for... but as soon as that's over I should have time to get the math finished for you...


----------



## Ruavel (Nov 28, 2002)

*samples...*

A thought just occurred to me, Khur... I can appreciate how much of your time this project consumes so if you'd like some assistance preparing sample characters for LgC's that don't yet have any, please let me know... 

I'm more than happy to create one or two others if they needed/wanted and if it will help take a little pressure off you...

just an idea...


----------



## Ruavel (Dec 3, 2002)

after a litte bit too much procrastination, I've finally put together some character math for Wade & Trinnen...

if you need more just let me know...


----------



## Sheridan (Dec 5, 2002)

*Character math*

OK, I admit it, I've been "lurking".  I figure I'd shock everyone by actually posting.   
Khur, was the e-mail I sent on the math for Nimrod/Venator's skills OK or did you need anything else ?
Also, I know you replied, but I lost the e-mail - did you already have a copy of Venator's stats or did you need me to send them again?
Thanks again for all your effort!
*Sheridan


----------



## Khur (Dec 6, 2002)

*Venator*

I'm pretty sure I have Venator's statistics. I'll let you have a look before it "goes to press" to make sure they're the right ones.  Send me a high-priority email about sending you Venator's final stats, and I'll flag it.

Thanks.


----------



## Ruavel (Dec 6, 2002)

just been having another look at Jeremy Mohler's work...



I really can't wait to see how he brings the characters to life...!!

sorry for interrupting...  we will now return you to your regularly scheduled programme...


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## Khur (Dec 14, 2002)

Hey everyone.

Things are progressing. I've created an iconic Dwarven Forgemaster (attached), but he's not totally finished. 

I'm tossing around the idea of modifying the Cross-Class Learning feat to make two skills available as class skills to whomever takes the feat. Let me know if you object (Paul especially). The reason for this is my players, who are decidedly not munchkins or power gamers, think the feat is weak. When they say that, it's usually right.

I'm slowly working everything else out and perhaps occassionally posting art.

I'll be out of town the next two weeks, but I'll still be online from time to time. 

I hope everyone has great holidays.


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## kingpaul (Dec 14, 2002)

Khur said:
			
		

> *I'm tossing around the idea of modifying the Cross-Class Learning feat to make two skills available as class skills to whomever takes the feat. Let me know if you object (Paul especially). The reason for this is my players, who are decidedly not munchkins or power gamers, think the feat is weak. When they say that, it's usually right.*



Its not my feat, but I brought that suggestion forward to the NBoFeats team.  They're looking at revising it, but I don't know if they will or not.  Its an OGC feat, and the OGL allows you to revise away, as long as you properly fill out S15 of the license.


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## Khur (Dec 14, 2002)

*OGL*

I want to make sure everyone is accounted for in our OGL, for the principle of it, not just the legal aspect. I want to respect everyone's intellectual property. Perhaps you can help me with that Paul? I also plan on writing a little foreword about all of this.

Thanks a lot Paul!


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## Khur (Dec 27, 2002)

*Progress*

First of all, I'd like to congratulate Paul King on his MBA work. (See the news today.)

Jeremy Mohler is just starting work on the illustrations. The book itself is in a standby pattern until these start rolling in. As soon as I get one or two, I may do some sample pages to keep everyone excited.

What this means for you, is you can still add to the project if you wish.

Happy New Year everyone.


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## kingpaul (Dec 27, 2002)

*Re: Progress*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *First of all, I'd like to congratulate Paul King on his MBA work. (See the news today.)*



Thank you.  What did you think of the study?  And here, I have a gift for you...a bit late, and maybe not complete, but here he is (and tweaked a bit as well).


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## Khur (Dec 28, 2002)

*Oooops!*

Unfortunately, Paul, I couldn't read your study because the site is down. I think you got a lot of interested visitors!



That said, I need some things from you ... most essentially, the math on Kaob's skills (especially Swim). 

What do you think about the idea of making Kaob's steed a unique celestial creature? What about adding some more unique items to Kaob (like a great weapon or artifact of Ch'Tal's church)?

Thanks!


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## kingpaul (Dec 28, 2002)

*Re: Oooops!*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Unfortunately, Paul, I couldn't read your study because the site is down. I think you got a lot of interested visitors! *



I know, I'm shopping around for a host that doesn't have the stringent bandwidth requirements that TopCities does, but still allows me access to do updates.


			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *That said, I need some things from you ... most essentially, the math on Kaob's skills (especially Swim). *



I used PCGen to do everything.  I'll see about recreating him step-by-step to get the skill increases.  Swim's where it is because of the weight of his armor.


			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *What do you think about the idea of making Kaob's steed a unique celestial creature? What about adding some more unique items to Kaob (like a great weapon or artifact of Ch'Tal's church)?*



That'd work, but I didn't want to munchkin him out to much.


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## Piratecat (Dec 30, 2002)

Can you guys scoot here?  I'd welcome any help!

Thanks,


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## Khur (Jan 6, 2003)

*Sketch 1*

Here's the first sketch from Jeremy: the Brawler. (That means this one is still rough, but sorta how it will appear.) I added the watermarks to protect our artist, so blame me for that. He's working on the Divine Weapon next.







Comments?


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## reddist (Jan 6, 2003)

hee hee!  I like it

Coincidentaly, my fellow lab-monkey is named Jeremy.  I'll show him this and give him his stats

Later

-Reddist


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## Ruavel (Jan 7, 2003)

awesome...!

with that little taste, I'm really looking forward to seeing what Jeremy does with the rest of the classes...

thanx for the update, Khur...


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## kingpaul (Jan 12, 2003)

Alright, I've revised Kaob.  I used Monte's Dedicated Paladin variant, and have forwarded the permission to Khur.  Tell me what you think.


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## kingpaul (Jan 12, 2003)

Sorry, just realized I made a slight mistake on the spells for Kaob, and clarified which Paladin I was using.


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## blackshirt5 (Jan 12, 2003)

Anybody have a date when this is gonna be available?

And possibly, where it's gonna be available?  I really love the idea of the LEgendary Classes, I'm already ordering all 4 Path books from FFG, could always use some more for my campaign setting.

Thanx for any help y'all can gimme!


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## Ruavel (Jan 13, 2003)

*Kaob*



> _Originally posted by kingpaul_
> *Alright, I've revised Kaob. I used Monte's Dedicated Paladin variant, and have forwarded the permission to Khur. Tell me what you think.*



I like him, kingpaul... great background that really represents the true legend that would be expected of this type of character...

If I was forced to find a fault it would be that a warhammer cannot be a _keen_ weapon under the general rules... a minor and pedantic point, really... and it certainly doesn't detract from an otherwise excellent character...

In fact, I could use a character like Kaob to hound a few PC's that have an 'odd' idea of what good is...


----------



## kingpaul (Jan 13, 2003)

*Re: Kaob*



			
				Ruavel said:
			
		

> *If I was forced to find a fault it would be that a warhammer cannot be a keen weapon under the general rules... a minor and pedantic point, really...*



For normal weapons, yes, I agree with you.  But this is an artifact, so I bent the rules.  

_Edit: _ Of course, if you want to remove that property to bring it more inline with the rules, go ahead.  You'll just have to decrease the threatrange by 1.


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## Khur (Jan 13, 2003)

*Info*



			
				blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> *Anybody have a date when this is gonna be available?
> *



 Unfortunately no, and I guess I'm the only one who could have the date. It's going slowly because we're all doing this in our spare time. Many of us don't have much. You'll probably be able to download the PDF right here on EN World and from Fantasy Flight Games. Thanks for the query though and please keep watching for the PDF. Chime in any time you feel like it.


As for Kaob's hammer, there _is_ an official modification for bludgeoning weapons that does the same thing as keen. I think it's in _Sword and Fist_, so we can't use the official version. Nothing is stopping us from using a renamed version of the same thing, though, as another extra, because it _is _ a reasonable extrapolation form the core rules. We just can't use the same text and name found in S&F. Perhaps we can just make one power, a slightly reworked keen, that works for any weapon.

Otherwise, I think it's fine. To me, showing how the rules can be bent or altered is an idea generator for DMs, which is good if it's not taken too far. For example, I ignore the blanket statement in _polymorph other_ stating the recipient of the spell gets none of the new form's extraordinary (Ex) abilities. If someone transforms into a sahuagin, he gets light and freshwater sensitivity as well as amphibious (physiological aspects). He doesn't get blood frenzy, speak with sharks, and underwater sense (mental aspects).


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## Ruavel (Jan 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kingpaul_
> *For normal weapons, yes, I agree with you. But this is an artifact, so I bent the rules.*



I certainly wasn't saying it was a crime against humanity... Like I said, it was really the only thing I had could point out as a fault if I was forced to... otherwise I thought Kaob sounds great & I'm looking forward to seeing him 'fleshed-out' by Jeremy... 



> _Originally posted by Khur_
> *As for Kaob's hammer, there is an official modification for bludgeoning weapons that does the same thing as keen. I think it's in Sword and Fist, so we can't use the official version. Nothing is stopping us from using a renamed version of the same thing, though, as another extra, because it is a reasonable extrapolation form the core rules. We just can't use the same text and name found in S&F. Perhaps we can just make one power, a slightly reworked keen, that works for any weapon.*



I've had a quick check in S&F and couldn't find any to double the threat range of bludgeoning weapons... There's _Ki Focus_, _Merciful_, _Seeking_, _Sure Striking_ & _Vicious_... I didn't find anything in DotF either... I'll check the other WotC books in a little while and get back to you about whether or not I find anything... in the end, the 're-working _Keen_' option may be the easiest (certainly quite simple, really)...



> _Oringally posted by Khur_
> *Otherwise, I think it's fine. To me, showing how the rules can be bent or altered is an idea generator for DMs, which is good if it's not taken too far.*



I'm all for bending rules in the name of creativity and game-play as well... I brought this point up in case it was something that was going to lookl 'wrong' in the netbook when it is finally completely...

I do apologise if I've offended in any way...


----------



## kingpaul (Jan 14, 2003)

Ruavel said:
			
		

> *I do apologise if I've offended in any way... *



I'm not offended


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## Khur (Jan 14, 2003)

Not offended either.


----------



## kingpaul (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: Info*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Nothing is stopping us from using a renamed version of the same thing, though, as another extra, because it is  a reasonable extrapolation form the core rules.*



OK, how 'bout this:

{begin OGC}
_Enhanced Critical_: This enchantment doubles the threat range of a weapon. For instance, if it is placed on a longsword (which has a normal threat range of 19-20), the enhanced critical longsword scores a threat on a 17-20.

Caster Level: 10th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor; Market Price: +1 bonus.
{end OGC}

_Edit_: removed references to keen


----------



## Ruavel (Jan 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kingpaul_
> *Enhanced Critical: This enchantment doubles the threat range of a weapon. For instance, if it is placed on a longsword (which has a normal threat range of 19-20), the keen longsword scores a threat on a 17-20.
> 
> Caster Level: 10th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, keen edge; Market Price: +1 bonus.*



simple and straight to the point...



I like it...


----------



## kingpaul (Jan 14, 2003)

*in the interim*

Do you want me to stat out Kaob's wife?  I have her as his cohort from the Leadership feat.


----------



## Khur (Jan 14, 2003)

If you want to stat Kaob's wife, feel free. As I've said before, just have fun.


----------



## kingpaul (Jan 14, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *If you want to stat Kaob's wife, feel free. As I've said before, just have fun.*



Oh, I am having fun.  I just might have to create a PrC or LgC for her...fighter/cleric/rogue type.


----------



## Khur (Jan 14, 2003)

Sweet! That's what I like to hear!


----------



## blackshirt5 (Jan 15, 2003)

Just a BUMP to get this to the front page again, so's we who're interested but not participating in this can keep an eye on it.


----------



## kingpaul (Jan 16, 2003)

*another edit*

Alright, I tweaked the backstory slighty, did some corrections to S15 of the OGL and added Melidia, Kaob's wife.  I really don't see the need for fleshing out any of the followers.


----------



## d20Dwarf (Jan 17, 2003)

I want this netbook! NOW!


----------



## kingpaul (Jan 18, 2003)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> *I want this netbook! NOW!  *



Well Wil, you'll have to take this up with Khur.  

I'm highly curious how the artist is going to render the Divine Weapon.


----------



## Khur (Jan 19, 2003)

*Curiosity Sated (?)*

Wil, do you want NOW, becuase it's taking too long or because it's looking cool? (Or both?)

Okay guys, here are some new sketches:

Trinnen val Keemer






Wade Braddock





Divine Weapon





Face Closeups





I plan on getting Jeremy to do the divine weapon with a warhammer. Further, I have another image, but I want some changes. It'll be here soon.

Thanks guys.


----------



## Ruavel (Jan 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Khur_
> *Okay guys, here are some new sketches:*



 

awesome...!! Wade and Trinnen look better than I could ever have hoped.. and these are just sketches...!!

I really don't know how to express how appreciative I am of Jeremy's art (& Khur's hard work) that has brought these LgC's and the sample characters to life...

thanks so much guys...


----------



## kingpaul (Jan 20, 2003)

*Re: Curiosity Sated (?)*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *I plan on getting Jeremy to do the divine weapon with a warhammer.*



The picture was awesome, and a weapon change would be great.  Also, and I'm not trying to be picky, as I have no artistic talent to speak of; but could Kaob's armor look more like full plate, and perhaps include a large shield?  ::hides from the artist's wrath::  I like how he's protrayed Kaob's facial features.


----------



## Khur (Jan 21, 2003)

*No problems*

I passed on your requests to Jeremy. As an artist, I can tell you there's a good reason not to include the shield in this composition. The focus is on the man and the weapon he's holding. In fact, his own focus is on the weapon. The added shape of the shield only dilutes the visual power of this arrangement. Do you see what I mean?

Thanks for the input. Jeremy is having fun doing these things.


----------



## blackshirt5 (Jan 21, 2003)

I can't wait to unleash these on my players/let my players see if they wanna take any.  Is one of em gonna be an Archer?


----------



## Khur (Jan 21, 2003)

A few archers, actually.


----------



## blackshirt5 (Jan 21, 2003)

Good to know.  I've got an elven ranger that is probably gonna go for the first cool/fitting Archer LPrC that he sees.


----------



## Khur (Jan 22, 2003)

*OGL and more...*

*OGL and Section 15:*
Looking at Paul's OGL in his class, I have a problem. It's not necessary to copyright every part of your article, just the article itself. If anyone in the future lifts any part of that article, the new creation must note your copyright.

Further, a common misinterpretation of the OGL causes authors to lift everything from the section 15 of any work they cite and put it in their own section 15. That's not what the OGL is meant to enforce.

What one must do is cite the copyright notice of the source from which the OGC comes. Thus, our section 15 should read like this:

*15. Copyright Notice*

_Open Game License v 1.0a,_ Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc. 
_System Reference Document,_ Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.
_Path of the Sword,_ Copyright 2002, Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. 
_The Book of Hallowed Might,_ Copyright 2002, Monte J. Cook. All rights reserved.
_Class Article Title,_ Copyright 2003, class author.
(and so on)
Where an author has included something in another's article (such as characters I have made to go with other LgCs), a specific copyright might also be noted. Otherwise, one article gets one copyright.

Note also the extensive inclusions in Section 15 of _Path of the Sword._ As far as I know, we needn't include those works, because our work does not use material from those sources.

If I'm wrong, show me how and show me why with clear facts.


*Kaob:*
Kaob looks okay except for a few things.

First, the stat blocks aren't what I asked for (nor do they conform with D&D standard blocks). Use the Chronicle format, which you can see on any character I posted or in this post. Second, since some of the text comes from PCGen, it's not in proper d20 format (+3 rapier, not Rapier +3 or Knowledge (religion) not Knowledge (Religion)). Melidia doesn't have spells prepared and neither she nor Kaob have their domain powers delineated. The magic items don't have any description nor do they have proper 3E stats (Caster Level, Prerequisites, and etc.). Please include these.

If you have time, can you give some info on Ch'Tal and his church. I don't need a diety character, but the descriptive text like that found in diety entries of other works (_Dieties and Demigods, Faiths and Pantheons,_ and others) is most welcome. That material can be PI if you like, since it'll all be exposition.

If you can't or don't want to do any of these things, I can do them or edit Koab to fit what I need.

Here's the Chronicle Stat Block:


*Aelgifu, female human Tra 10:* CR 10; Medium-size humanoid; HD 10d4+20; hp 48; Init +2 (+2 Dex); Spd 30 ft.; AC 17 (touch 15, flat-footed 14); Atk +7 melee (1d6+2, _+2 quarterstaff_), or +7 ranged (1d8/crit 19-20, masterwork light crossbow); AL LG; SV Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +10; Str 11, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 15, Cha 14. 5 ft. 8 in. tall, 137 lbs. 
(indent here) _Skills_: Alchemy +11, Concentration +15, Craft (carving) +10, Craft (jeweler) +10, Knowledge (arcana) +17, Knowledge (geography) +12, Knowledge (geology) +10, Knowledge (religion) +10, Scry +17, Spellcraft +17. _Feats_: Combat Casting, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Dodge, Eschew Materials, Scribe Scroll, Silent Spell, Spell Penetration, Still Spell.
(indent here) _Notes_: As a transmuter, Aelgifu's restricted school is Conjuration.
(indent here) _Languages_: Celestial, Draconic, Elven, Giant, Common
(indent here) _Wizard Spells Prepared_ (4+1/5+1/5+1/4+1/4+1/2+1, base save DC 14 + spell level): 0—_detect magic (x2), mage hand (x2), read magic_; 1st—_expeditious retreat, feather fall, lesser fire orb(x2), shield (x2)_; 2nd—_daylight (x2), levitate, knock (x2), resist elements_; 3rd—_blindsight, dispel magic, fireball, haste (x2);_ 4th—_arcane eye, dimension door, fire orb(x2), mass darkvision_; 5th—_ghostform, teleport (x2)_
(indent here) _Spellbook_: 0—all in PHB besides restricted, _launch bolt, silent portal_; 1st—_animate rope, comprehend languages, endure elements, erase, expeditious retreat, feather fall, lesser fire orb, low-light vision, magic weapon, message, reduce, shield_; 2nd—_alter self, darkvision, daylight, eagle's splendor, knock, levitate, resist elements_; 3rd—_blindsight, dispel magic, fireball, fly, gaseous form, haste_; 4th—_arcane eye, dimension door, fire orb, mass darkvision, scry_; 5th—_ghostform, leutzan's frequent jaunt, simbul's spell matrix, teleport._
(indent here) _Possessions_: _+2 quarterstaff of continual light_ (suppressed at will), light crossbow (masterwork), quiver (20 masterwork bolts), _+3 robes of deflection, +2 bracers of armor, +1 cloak of resistance, ring of warmth_ (cold resistance 5), _wand of magic missiles_ (5 missiles per charge, 17 charges), _wand of magic weapon_ (7 charges, +1 for 10 minutes), travel spellbook, journal, ink, pen, fine overcoat (fur lined), and fur boots.
Note, however, that some sources list items such as _bracers of armor_ with the bonus at the end, while all proper sources list the bonus before shields and weapons. With those, I'll accept either.

_Dungeon_ doesn't ask for spellbooks for wizard characters, but I'd like to include them if your character has wizard levels. Another category would be "(Legendary Class Name) Abilities" and each ability should have a roman numeral after it indicating its power level; that is, *Burger Flipping II,* if the power level is two. Further, if your character has domains, that's a category that looks like this:


(indent here) _Domains_: Retribution (special power description placed here in brief) and Travel (_freedom of movement_ 3 rounds/day). Domain spells are not italicized above.
*Special Note:* The above stat block contains items found in _Tome and Blood, Magic of Faerûn_, and the _Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting_. These spells and items are closed content and © of Wizards of the Coast. Their appearance (in name only) here is merely for example, and not a challenge to the copyright.


----------



## Ruavel (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by blackshirt_
> *Good to know. I've got an elven ranger that is probably gonna go for the first cool/fitting Archer LPrC that he sees.*



There's a couple of great ranger-based LgCs amongst this lot... keep your eyes peeled for when it's finally finished... one is quite keyed towards elven rangers (IMO) and may suit your needs/wants perfectly...

and if worst comes to worst and the existing ones don't suit, I'm sure that if you ask nicely enough someone will help with creating something more suitable or tweaking an old LgC...


----------



## blackshirt5 (Jan 22, 2003)

Well, I'm already working on some Legendary Prestige classes of my own, like the Black Luster Soldier(basically a champion of Chaos), and the Shining Silver Champion(BLS counterpart, but for Law).  IF worse comes to worse, I might make one myself.


----------



## Ruavel (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by blackshirt5_
> *Well, I'm already working on some Legendary Prestige classes of my own, like the Black Luster Soldier(basically a champion of Chaos), and the Shining Silver Champion(BLS counterpart, but for Law). IF worse comes to worse, I might make one myself.*



they sound interesting...



hope they work out...


----------



## kingpaul (Jan 22, 2003)

*Re: No problems*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *I passed on your requests to Jeremy. As an artist, I can tell you there's a good reason not to include the shield in this composition. The focus is on the man and the weapon he's holding. In fact, his own focus is on the weapon. The added shape of the shield only dilutes the visual power of this arrangement. Do you see what I mean?*



Yes I do, now.  Thanks for explaining that.


----------



## kingpaul (Jan 22, 2003)

*Re: OGL and more...*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Looking at Paul's OGL in his class, I have a problem. It's not necessary to copyright every part of your article, just the article itself. If anyone in the future lifts any part of that article, the new creation must note your copyright.*



Sorry, I got citation happy.  I'll make the correction...see below


			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Further, a common misinterpretation of the OGL causes authors to lift everything from the section 15 of any work they cite and put it in their own section 15. That's not what the OGL is meant to enforce.
> <...snip...>
> Note also the extensive inclusions in Section 15 of Path of the Sword. As far as I know, we needn't include those works, because our work does not use material from those sources.
> 
> If I'm wrong, show me how and show me why with clear facts.*



Actually, this discussion gets rehashed on the OGF-L and the OGF-d20-L every couple months.  It is the consensus of folks like Clark Peterson and Ryan Dancey that one must lift *every* citation in a sources S15.  Of course, you don't have to include duplications...if you cite from 3 OGC sources, you don't need 3 instances of the OGL and the SRD in your S15.


			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Kaob looks okay except for a few things.*



I'll work on getting the corrections you've requested within the next week or so.  I should, hopefully, have some time this weekend to get the stuff brushed up.


----------



## kingpaul (Jan 22, 2003)

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> *...Legendary Prestige classes....*



No offense meant, but the class group is just Legendary Class, not Legendary Prestige Class.


----------



## Khur (Jan 22, 2003)

Hey Paul, thanks for the input on the OGL. I figured you'd know, since you have input on so many projects.  Thanks for all your work, too. I hope you're happy with the outcome of the drawing by Jeremy. I'll post his revised sketches.

The concensus on the OGL seems goofy to me, despite prestigous and learned judgement, but I don't want to wait 3 months for Wizards legal to get back to me. Our OGL will have a meaty section 15, with chewy chunks!

Thanks again!


----------



## kingpaul (Jan 22, 2003)

*Path of Faith*

Whoo hoo!  My copy just came in.  Now I get to play some more with Kaob's mount.


----------



## Ruavel (Jan 22, 2003)

*Path of Faith...*



> _Originally posted by kingpaul_
> *Whoo hoo! My copy just came in. Now I get to play some more with Kaob's mount.*



I'm still waiting for my local game store to get the copy of Path of magic I ordered through them in October last year... (I'd go directly through FFG but the cost of shipping to Australia is a little too much for me at this stage)

so, kingpaul, are you going to give us a comparison of Path of Faith and Path of the Sword...?


----------



## kingpaul (Jan 23, 2003)

*Re: Path of Faith...*



			
				Ruavel said:
			
		

> *so, kingpaul, are you going to give us a comparison of Path of Faith and Path of the Sword...? *



I can do that.  Let me get to the weekend when I can look at the books side-by-side and take compare/contrast notes.


----------



## Ruavel (Jan 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kingpaul_
> *I can do that. Let me get to the weekend when I can look at the books side-by-side and take compare/contrast notes.*



I look forward to that...

If Path of Faith sounds good enough, I may cancel my order at my local store and see if ordering the other 3 'Path of' books from FFG in one go will make it a little more affordable...


----------



## kingpaul (Jan 25, 2003)

*Kaob revised*

Khur,

Is this what you are looking for?  If not, I can do some more revision.

_Edit_: Forgot to include 9 feats


----------



## Khur (Jan 26, 2003)

At first perusal, this all looks pretty good Paul. Thanks.

Do you plan on making up the magic items with costs and such, or would you prefer I do that?

The statistics for Ch'Tal are pretty stunning, though I have no means to go over them really. If we're in breach of copyright or the OGL by using anything from _Deities and Demigods_, that material has to go away. Sorry.

Perhaps it's more appropriate to just include the avatar. What type of celestials serve Ch'Tal?

Thanks again!


----------



## kingpaul (Jan 26, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *Do you plan on making up the magic items with costs and such, or would you prefer I do that?*



Which items?  Kaob's, Melidia's, Thunderer's or Ch'Tal's?


			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *The statistics for Ch'Tal are pretty stunning, though I have no means to go over them really. If we're in breach of copyright or the OGL by using anything from Deities and Demigods, that material has to go away. Sorry.*



Ch'Tal's stats aren't meant for the netbook.  The descriptive text, yes.  The stats were derived from WotC closed content.  I just included it to show my vision of the deity.


			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Perhaps it's more appropriate to just include the avatar. What type of celestials serve Ch'Tal?*



The avatar was also derived from closed content in the D&Dg book.  As for which celestials, all of those listed in the MM serve, but Ch'Tal's most frequent are the Ghaele, Planetar and Solar.


----------



## kingpaul (Jan 28, 2003)

Ruavel said:
			
		

> *I look forward to that...
> 
> If Path of Faith sounds good enough, I may cancel my order at my local store and see if ordering the other 3 'Path of' books from FFG in one go will make it a little more affordable... *



I haven't forgotten about you; life got a bit more hectic this weekend than I thought it would.  I just finished reading Path of Faith cover-to-cover, and I'll (hopefully) have a review up here at EN World in the next couple days.  I have such a backlog of d20 material that I have that I haven't reviewed...ugh!


----------



## kingpaul (Jan 28, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *Do you plan on making up the magic items with costs and such, or would you prefer I do that?*



For that matter, why do you need the costs for the items?  Not that I don't mind calculating them, but I've not seen them with other NPC listings.


----------



## blackshirt5 (Jan 28, 2003)

As a suggestion: Why not release not only a full netbook, with the art and everything, but also a version without all the extra art?  I know that as much as I like some of the art we've seen on this thread, that it'll take less ink and paper to print the netbook without the art.

And that's something I like.


----------



## Khur (Jan 28, 2003)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> *For that matter, why do you need the costs for the items?  Not that I don't mind calculating them, but I've not seen them with other NPC listings. *



 Every character with actually unique items has the item done with all 3E stats, like so:

*Thingar's Armor:* The mithral armor of the dwarven king Thingar is +3 dwarven plate. Further enchantment reduces the armor check penalty of the armor by 1 and its weight by 5 pounds. Finally, Thingar's Armor has light fortification (25% chance to avoid a critical strike or sneak attack).

_Caster Level_: 13th; _Prerequisites_: Craft Magical Arms and Armor, _miracle_, creator must be a dwarf; _Market Price_: 35,500 gp; Weight: 20 lbs.

That said, you don't have to do it, if'n ya don' wanna.  It is a pain.   Heck, they're changing the way item costs are calculated in 3.5E anyhow.  As I've preached repeatedly, if it's not fun, forget about it.



			
				blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> *Why not release not only a full netbook, with the art and everything, but also a version without all the extra art?*



 Harder, but doable. Not a bad idea, blackshirt. Thanks.


----------



## blackshirt5 (Jan 28, 2003)

No problem.  I've talked it over with some of the guys from my group(as well as a Zelda D20 netbook that I'm part of), and my gaming group agreed(the Netbook doesn't have a concensus yet) that we'd love netboooks more if they came without the art, for easier printing(all of us are living on student budgets, and ink cartridges are expensive).


----------



## kingpaul (Jan 29, 2003)

*Path of Faith review*

Well, I got my Path of Faith review done.


----------



## Ruavel (Jan 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kingpaul_
> *Well, I got my Path of Faith review done.*



Thanks for letting us know that your review was up, kingpaul...

I got a phone call yesterday saying that my copy of Path of Magic has finally arrived... I guess now that I've had a read of your review, I'll have to see how long it takes my game store to get Path of Faith & even Path of the Shadow in for me...


----------



## blackshirt5 (Feb 2, 2003)

BUMP-DOKEN!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Khur (Feb 3, 2003)

Paul,

I need to know what the following things are and from where they come on Thunderer: Private Field and Quiet Step. If these items are from OGC, then they can be reprinted and should be. I also can't figure out why Thunderer flies.

I made up Kaob's items as full-fledged, fully-statted magic weapons and armor. I'll send them to you if you like. I also gave Kaob's wife a unique item (bringing her equipment up to the value of that of a typical NPC of her level). 

I'll take partial credit for writing Kaob's items. Cool?

I also want to know why all of the items in your OGL are there. Did you use all of these things in writing Kaob?

Finally, did you send me the skill calculations for Melidia? If not, can you?

Thanks.


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 3, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *I need to know what the following things are and from where they come on Thunderer: Private Field and Quiet Step. If these items are from OGC, then they can be reprinted and should be. I also can't figure out why Thunderer flies.*



Those 3 items come from the last chapter in Path of Faith.  It lists how a Paladin or Black Guard can alter their special mounts by expending XP.


			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *I made up Kaob's items as full-fledged, fully-statted magic weapons and armor. I'll send them to you if you like. I also gave Kaob's wife a unique item (bringing her equipment up to the value of that of a typical NPC of her level).*



Yes, I'd like that.


			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *I'll take partial credit for writing Kaob's items. Cool?*



That's fine


			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *I also want to know why all of the items in your OGL are there. Did you use all of these things in writing Kaob?*



I copied the S15 of the items I used (Path of Sword, Path of Faith and Book of Hallowed Might).  Those books included other items in their S15, and, by the license, you have to copy all items in the S15 of used material.  The only exception, and its an understood one, is that the word *exact* from the license doesn't mean that you have to include redundant entries (multiple instances of the SRD and OGL).


			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Finally, did you send me the skill calculations for Melidia? If not, can you?*



I honestly don't know if I still have that any more.  Let me look around.


----------



## Khur (Feb 3, 2003)

Thanks Paul! 

I got _Path of Faith_ yesterday, so I'll look up what you're talking about for Thunderer. It sounds pretty sweet. 

I've sent you the new items and I want you to feel free to tell me anything you feel about them. I also included a special note in Kaob, which is also attached to my email, not only make sure we cover our bases for Monte's generosity, but also to make the benefits of the dedicated paladin _interpretable_ by those who don't possess the _Book of Hallowed Might_. (I picked that up yesterday as well.) I'll also note the _Path of Faith_ references. Let me know what you think there too.

I really appreciate your including all of this OGC from various sources. It really shows how something can gain flavor through such a broad palette of material. Good job! (I also appreciate the help on the OGL.)

I think I can figure out Kaob's wife if you can't find her math quickly and easily. No sweat.



EDIT: Greg Benage, Managing Developer at FFG has said we may reference the parts of _Path of Faith_ relevant to Thunderer!  (We just have to include the typical copyright disclaimer.) Cool huh?

Further, Greg is going to go over our little PDF before we distribute it, just to help us out. Nice!


----------



## Khur (Feb 3, 2003)

Rauvel,

I was going to email this to you, but I cannot find your address. You'll notice I didn't change Wade Braddock's attack progression with Longshot when you see the PDF. Here's why:

You sent the math for his progression like so:
Ranged: Longshot +17/+12/+7/+2 (BAB) +6 (Dex) +1 (weapon focus) +3 (weapon enhancement) = +24/+19/+14/+9. 

You missed some things:

17 (BAB) + 6 (Dex) + 1 (Weapon Focus) + 3 (weapon enhancement) = +27. Further, Wade has _bracers of archery_ for +2 to attack rolls (since he's already proficient with the bow in question). Your original progression on the NPC of +29/+24/+19/+14 is correct!  (Yes, Wade Braddock is a bad a$$ with a bow!)

The math was a HUGE help though! And don't feel bad about this. You should have seen me when I caught myself shorting some characters a whole attack!

Thanks.


----------



## Ruavel (Feb 3, 2003)

> _Oringally posted by Khur_
> *The math was a HUGE help though! And don't feel bad about this. You should have seen me when I caught myself shorting some characters a whole attack!*



*sniffle* 

I'll try not to feel too bad about it...  

Thanks for double-double checking... must have been having the mathematical equivalent of a bad-hair day... or maybe it's just a general lack of ability... and thanks for keeping me posted...



maybe next time I'll trust my original math...

if you to email me anything at any stage use the link below...

Ruavel Naithar


----------



## Khur (Feb 4, 2003)

Was that "Don't feel bad." thing condescending? I didn't mean it that way. Man I make mistakes all the time. It's difficult with high-power characters. At least I think so.

We all know you have the ability. 

On to more editing!


----------



## Ruavel (Feb 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Khur_
> *Was that "Don't feel bad." thing condescending? I didn't mean it that way. Man I make mistakes all the time. It's difficult with high-power characters. At least I think so.*



Sorry Khur... it wasn't condescending... I was just playing along and having a little fun... that can be difficult on a message board, given that you can't "hear" the tone or inflection of the words...

keeping track of everything for a high-level character can be quite tough... especially if it's not a character you've slowly built up, which obviously gives you more time to spot any of your own errors... to be honest, I'm surprised I didn't make a plethra of mistakes when producing Wade... pleasantly surprised, but still surprised...

anyway, back to my proposal for some freelance work...

wish me luck...


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 4, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *I got Path of Faith yesterday, so I'll look up what you're talking about for Thunderer. It sounds pretty sweet.*



Alright, from the Special Mounts section (pp 165-167), Thunderer has the following (and maybe, perhaps, possibly, I did too much  ):

Alertness - grants the Alertness feat
Detection - _detect evil_
Flying (wingless) - can fly 50' (good)
Lightning Speed - grants the Improved Initiative feat
Private Field - a pocket dimension that looks like a field that the mount can go to 1/day
Quite Step - +10 to Move Silently checks (this should be in the SQ section, not the SA)
Stamina - grants the Endurance feat



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *I've sent you the new items and I want you to feel free to tell me anything you feel about them. I also included a special note in Kaob, which is also attached to my email, not only make sure we cover our bases for Monte's generosity, but also to make the benefits of the dedicated paladin interpretable by those who don't possess the Book of Hallowed Might. (I picked that up yesterday as well.) I'll also note the Path of Faith references. Let me know what you think there too.*



I got the new items...they were freakin' cool!  I wasn't sure what to do with the item write-ups; thank you.  While I noticed you've changed what the items did with my original write-up, I don't have a problem with that.  I can undrestand going over-board with what you like...I do it quite often myself.  Just change the appropriate sections of the stat block to take those modifications into account.

As for the Cloak of Resistance, I'm not sure what to do with it now.


			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *I really appreciate your including all of this OGC from various sources. It really shows how something can gain flavor through such a broad palette of material. Good job! (I also appreciate the help on the OGL.)*



One of favorite things with the OGL is that you can mix'n'match books to create all kinds of diverse and inventive things.  I like trying to pull from as much as possible...but perhaps I go overboard.


			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *I think I can figure out Kaob's wife if you can't find her math quickly and easily. No sweat.*



Well, I looked through my stuff, and I can't find my original notes anymore for her.  I honestly can't remember what her starting stats were to help in the reverse-engineering.


			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *EDIT: Greg Benage, Managing Developer at FFG has said we may reference the parts of Path of Faith relevant to Thunderer!  (We just have to include the typical copyright disclaimer.) Cool huh?
> 
> Further, Greg is going to go over our little PDF before we distribute it, just to help us out. Nice! *



That is awesome!  Does that mean that we might get some official sanction?


----------



## Khur (Feb 4, 2003)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> * While I noticed you've changed what the items did with my original write-up, I don't have a problem with that.
> 
> As for the Cloak of Resistance, I'm not sure what to do with it now.*



 I'm glad you liked the items. Kaob and Ch'Tal were the inspiration.

I changed only a little bit. I tweaked some here and there to make sure Kaob was well protected against the kinds of horrible things he is bound to face. The shield provides a holy aura so he didn't need the cloak.

BTW, thanks for the info on Thunderer.



> * One of favorite things with the OGL is that you can mix'n'match books to create all kinds of diverse and inventive things.  I like trying to pull from as much as possible...but perhaps I go overboard.*



 Me too! 



> * That is awesome!  Does that mean that we might get some official sanction? *



 I think so. I hope so. We'll see.


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 5, 2003)

*update (again)*

Khur,

I've included the items that you sent me, added the class at the front end, slightly revised S15, and pulled all Ch'Tal's descriptive text out of his stats' section (last 3 pages), and included it as part of the OGC.  I wasn't sure how you wanted your additions cited in S15, so took my best guess.


----------



## d20Dwarf (Feb 5, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *
> I think so. I hope so. We'll see.
> 
> *




Any chance I could get an advance look as well?


----------



## Khur (Feb 5, 2003)

Thanks Paul.



			
				d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> *Any chance I could get an advance look as well?  *



Sure Wil! Your contest and encouragement are the impetus behind this work! Just tell me what you want to see.


----------



## d20Dwarf (Feb 5, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Sure Wil! Your contest and encouragement are the impetus behind this work! Just tell me what you want to see.
> 
> *




Oh I won't be satisfied until I get the whole shebang.


----------



## Khur (Feb 5, 2003)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> *Oh I won't be satisfied until I get the whole shebang.  *



 Do you want to wait for the PDF version or just see the final prose in Word format?


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 6, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> * Do you want to wait for the PDF version or just see the final prose in Word format?*



Out of curiousity, how close, art aside, is the book to being done?


----------



## d20Dwarf (Feb 6, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *Hey Paul, thanks for the input on the OGL. I figured you'd know, since you have input on so many projects.  Thanks for all your work, too. I hope you're happy with the outcome of the drawing by Jeremy. I'll post his revised sketches.
> 
> The concensus on the OGL seems goofy to me, despite prestigous and learned judgement, but I don't want to wait 3 months for Wizards legal to get back to me. Our OGL will have a meaty section 15, with chewy chunks!
> 
> ...




I just wanted to chime in here and say that Paul is correct. You must always cite the entire Section 15 of any book you reference, minus duplicate entries such as the SRD.


----------



## Sheridan (Feb 6, 2003)

*Beta version?*

Is there a recently updated beta version available for download yet (word file/rtf/whatever)?  Even if it's without artwork we can still proof our stuff again.
Thanks,
*Sheridan


----------



## Khur (Feb 6, 2003)

The final prose is 3 NPC edits from done, unless I decide to add something extra. If I do, that shouldn't be relevant to the look-see you guys want. I'm thinking about editing the Neclord, even though the author disappeared. This is especially tempting given my new copy of _Path of Faith_.

As an aside, I don't think I'm going to post the text here again. Anyone who wants a copy, let me know. I will only send it to the team members here, Wil Upchurch, and persons from FFG. If you'd rather me just send you sections you've authored, I can do that too. Just tell me so. 

As a favor, keep an eye out for errors in the work. I do my best, but I'm only one guy.

Everyone else has to wait for the PDF(s). (Sorry. )

Thanks all!


----------



## blackshirt5 (Feb 6, 2003)

Actually Khur, how big is the text gonna be?  Cause if it's not too huge, could ya send me the text?  It'll be easier on my printer than the pdf, I'm sure.


----------



## Ruavel (Feb 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Khur_
> *As an aside, I don't think I'm going to post the text here again. Anyone who wants a copy, let me know. I will only send it to the team members here, Wil Upchurch, and persons from FFG. If you'd rather me just send you sections you've authored, I can do that too. Just tell me so.*



Personally, I'd be up for reading the whole thing... I've enjoyed working on this project and am _*really*_ looking forward to reading everyone else's final product...

out of curiosity (the kind that may get me killed), has anyone given any thought to the expansion of this netbook after this portion is completed... many of us have obtained other "Path of" series books and should have a number of ideas for LgC's aimed at other classes... would anyone else be interested in producing _*"The Netbook of Legendary Class II: the Legends Continue"*_?

or maybe something with a slightly less tacky name...?


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 7, 2003)

Ruavel said:
			
		

> *Personally, I'd be up for reading the whole thing... I've enjoyed working on this project and am really looking forward to reading everyone else's final product...*



I concur, on all fronts


			
				Ruavel said:
			
		

> *out of curiosity (the kind that may get me killed), has anyone given any thought to the expansion of this netbook after this portion is completed... many of us have obtained other "Path of" series books and should have a number of ideas for LgC's aimed at other classes... would anyone else be interested in producing "The Netbook of Legendary Class II: the Legends Continue"?
> 
> or maybe something with a slightly less tacky name...?*



A second volume would be cool.  I only have Sword and Faith, but they've generated ideas for me.

From what Morrus has posted, supposed the ELH and D&Dg will make it to the SRD this summer when D&D3.5 does.  IF that happens, then most, if not all, of Ch'Tal's stats can be listed, and we can play with other deities as well in write-up, and include possible Epic Legendary classes?


----------



## Ruavel (Feb 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kingpaul_
> *A second volume would be cool. I only have Sword and Faith, but they've generated ideas for me.*



I only have Sword and Magic (recently acquired) but I had ideas for arcane LgC's when we were writing this batch (one of which I have disovered already existed in the book...  ) and have since had more ideas for rogues, clerics and druids...



> _Originally posted by kingpaul_
> *From what Morrus has posted, supposed the ELH and D&Dg will make it to the SRD this summer when D&D3.5 does. IF that happens, then most, if not all, of Ch'Tal's stats can be listed, and we can play with other deities as well in write-up, and include possible Epic Legendary classes?*



It'd be great to see the full version of Ch'Tal listed... amongst other things it should help inspire other players/DM's to create their own gods and thereby their own related LgC's (Deity's Weapon being an awesome example)...


----------



## Khur (Feb 7, 2003)

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> Actually Khur, how big is the text gonna be?  Cause if it's not too huge, could ya send me the text?  It'll be easier on my printer than the pdf, I'm sure.



I wouldn't be so sure, to be honest. The designed version (sans art) may prove easier on the printer. Unfortunately, I have to stand by what I said (that is, team members only for the raw text). I just don't want the compiled Word doc to get distributed instead of the PDF. It's too easy for someone to edit and abuse. Plus, this 34-page document hasn't got its OGL written yet, so it's technically not in compliance. That's important when distributing to consumers, even for free. Amongst the team and legally interested parties (Wil and FFG), it's all right, because they'll keep it under wraps.

Don't worry, though. I think I'm going to do a layout sans art ASAP.



			
				Ruavel said:
			
		

> *out of curiosity (the kind that may get me killed), has anyone given any thought to the expansion of this netbook after this portion is completed... many of us have obtained other "Path of" series books and should have a number of ideas for LgC's aimed at other classes... would anyone else be interested in producing "The Netbook of Legendary Class II: the Legends Continue"? *



 I have _Path of the Sword, Magic_, and _Faith_. I plan on having _Path of Shadow_ soon. I am quite keen on doing another book, as I already have two nice ideas that I haven't seen yet. 

Speaking of asking for quick death at the hands of irate fellow authors, I'm also interested in some expansion material for _this_ book. For example, Ch'Tal's Guards, the characters who operate under the Guardian of the Green and King's Warden, and so forth, can all be nifty, campaign-oriented PrCs. What about the settings mentioned in some character backgrounds, such as the home of the elven sword masters where Trinnen val Keemer studied? Now, I'm not saying this needs to be done, or needs to be done before the netbook is released. It is a nice idea, methinks.

Besides, I like working with you people! I'd miss it. 



			
				kingpaul said:
			
		

> *From what Morrus has posted, supposed the ELH and D&Dg will make it to the SRD this summer when D&D3.5 does.  IF that happens, then most, if not all, of Ch'Tal's stats can be listed, and we can play with other deities as well in write-up, and include possible Epic Legendary classes? *



 Oooooo! Where is this info?

Stuff on Legendary Classes and epic levels seems natural. It would be super cool to see Ch'Tal in all of his glory. In fact, what about Tantark too?  I could include a god for the Guardian as well! Phew.

Well, that's it for now!


----------



## Ruavel (Feb 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Khur_
> *I have Path of the Sword, Magic, and Faith. I plan on having Path of Shadow soon. I am quite keen on doing another book, as I already have two nice ideas that I haven't seen yet.*



looks like we've got some enthusiasm here... 
it might be time to start fleshing out my ideas and seeing how they look... although I will have to scrap that Blind Oracle LgC idea I had...  I was so proud of that idea... *sigh* oh well...



> _Originally posted by Khur_
> *Speaking of asking for quick death at the hands of irate fellow authors, I'm also interested in some expansion material for this book. For example, Ch'Tal's Guards, the characters who operate under the Guardian of the Green and King's Warden, and so forth, can all be nifty, campaign-oriented PrCs. What about the settings mentioned in some character backgrounds, such as the home of the elven sword masters where Trinnen val Keemer studied? Now, I'm not saying this needs to be done, or needs to be done before the netbook is released. It is a nice idea, methinks.*



I'd be quite happy to produce so more material for either of these two classes & characters... besides I've only got the first national fencing circuit competition in March to train for... 

but seriously, I'd be happy to put some more together... I might try to jot down a few ideas and send them your way later on... a PrC and Wade's deputy could be fun to create... and why not Trinnen's star pupil...?

see, now you've got me thinking and I'm meant to be getting ready to go out... the nerve...!


----------



## Khur (Feb 7, 2003)

*New Art*

New art from Jeremy.

*The Warrior of the Broken Wake:*







Note: I already asked Jer to redo this on with the warrior smashing something, teeth bared and all!


*The Storm:*






Note: Lightning to be added. Holg (the half-orc) is cool!


Jeremy is doing the Juxaspect and Forgemaster with a background, so they'll be along shortly.

I should be mailing out the documents soon.

Cheers!


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 7, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *Speaking of asking for quick death at the hands of irate fellow authors, I'm also interested in some expansion material for this book. For example, Ch'Tal's Guards, the characters who operate under the Guardian of the Green and King's Warden, and so forth, can all be nifty, campaign-oriented PrCs. What about the settings mentioned in some character backgrounds, such as the home of the elven sword masters where Trinnen val Keemer studied? Now, I'm not saying this needs to be done, or needs to be done before the netbook is released. It is a nice idea, methinks.
> 
> Besides, I like working with you people! I'd miss it. *



Alright, time to kill Khur.  

But seriously, I'll see what I can do about PrCs for Ch'Tal...both aspects.


			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Oooooo! Where is this info?*



Here


			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Stuff on Legendary Classes and epic levels seems natural. It would be super cool to see Ch'Tal in all of his glory. In fact, what about Tantark too?  I could include a god for the Guardian as well! Phew.*



I like creating deities, and think the addition of ELH and D&Dg to the SRD would be freakin' awesome!


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 7, 2003)

*Re: New Art*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *The Dark Lord:
> <...snip...>
> Note: Sent this by a friend. Thought it was funny, no matter what your political bent.*



No offense, but be prepared for the mods to yell at you.  I got yelled at for posting this.  Told that if it has *any*thing to do with politics to not post it...*ever*.


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 10, 2003)

*setting?*

I was thinking the other day; we probably have enough background material between all of us to create our own setting.

Khur, have you sent out the revised book yet?  If you haven't, no big deal, I completely understand that you're busy.  If you have, then I somehow got missed.  Not trying to pressure you, just curious.


----------



## Ruavel (Feb 10, 2003)

*Re: setting?*



> _Originally posted by kingpaul_
> *I was thinking the other day; we probably have enough background material between all of us to create our own setting.*



Is this some sort of subtle proposal, kingpaul...? 



> _Originally posted by kingpaul_
> *Khur, have you sent out the revised book yet? If you haven't, no big deal, I completely understand that you're busy. If you have, then I somehow got missed. Not trying to pressure you, just curious.*



If it makes you feel any better, I haven't received anything yet either... I got the impression there was still a little editring work to be done before it was being sent to us all...

*shrug*

that said, I may have misunderstood...


----------



## Khur (Feb 10, 2003)

Copy is on its way to those who have requested it. That includes Wil Upchurch. The book is not "complete", but the little that needs to be done has little bearing on what you guys want.

Since everyone is antsy, I'm mailing it out! 

Paul, you'll notice I took out any reference to Tantark in Ch'Tal's write-up. While colorful, this stuff has little context when Ch'Tal is separated from his pantheon. Therefore, it just seemed confusing to me. I was surprised at how much was devoted to Tantark's religion, since Kaob doesn't seem to be part of that sect.

Cheers everyone!


----------



## blackshirt5 (Feb 10, 2003)

so, when is the release date on the PDF of this one?


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 10, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *Paul, you'll notice I took out any reference to Tantark in Ch'Tal's write-up. While colorful, this stuff has little context when Ch'Tal is separated from his pantheon. Therefore, it just seemed confusing to me. I was surprised at how much was devoted to Tantark's religion, since Kaob doesn't seem to be part of that sect.*



That makes sense.  I was just trying to flesh out the god; and, I'll admit, it was hastily done.  Color me enthusiastic.


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 10, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *Since everyone is antsy, I'm mailing it out! *



Did a quick read-through.  Looks great.  However, I've found some mistakes (no offense) on the quick read.  Do you want these emailed to you or posted here?  I'm inclined to post here so that others who might notice them will see its already been addressed.  You're the editor, its your call.


----------



## Khur (Feb 10, 2003)

I should have told everyone that I had not done a final read before sending this.  Sorry, I forgot to mention that. This is just a semi-final construction so you can see what it looks like and let me know if I left anything out.

On the other hand, many eyes are useful. So, email me the mistakes, so I can have a personal reference. If you'd like to post them so others don't identify the same ones, please do. It doesn't really matter to me to see the same mistake identified, but it is a shame to waste others' time.

Thanks!


----------



## Khur (Feb 10, 2003)

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> *so, when is the release date on the PDF of this one? *



 Since you've been so enthusiastic, eager, and helpful at turns, blackshirt5, I'm going to send you a personal copy as soon as the "non-art" version is done. That should be no later than mid-March, but probably earlier. I have other projects, so my design time may be limited.

I have to get a promise from you not to distribute your copy, though. Even though this thing is free, I'd like to get numbers on the downloads. Understand?

Does this sound good to you? Do you recommend we post the non-art version when it's done? My plan was to put the art/nonart together in a ZIP--one for screen and one for printing.


----------



## Ruavel (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Khur_
> *Do you recommend we post the non-art version when it's done? My plan was to put the art/nonart together in a ZIP--one for screen and one for printing.*



If you're looking for other contributors opinions then my vote is certainly for a combined art & non-art version in the same zip file...

that said, I am well aware of the amount of time involved in fine tuning text layout once art has been removed from of document, so I'm sure that if you don't have the time (or any further desire) to do it, no-one involved with the project will complain too much...

I only recommend the combined documents based on the number of statements I have read on these and other boards about the hassles of printing .pdf material that includes any serious artwork...

anyone else got any thoughts...?


----------



## Khur (Feb 11, 2003)

Ruavel said:
			
		

> * If you're looking for other contributors opinions then my vote is certainly for a combined art & non-art version in the same zip file...*



 To quote _Poltergeist_, "All are welcome...." 

I agree with the idea that printer friendly versions are nice. (I'll probably do the printer version first.)


----------



## Ruavel (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Khur_
> *I agree with the idea that printer friendly versions are nice. (I'll probably do the printer version first.)*



sounds good to me... 

all said and done though, I think everyone who contributed to the contest and the netbook is really looking forward to seeing the combined product, with the final edit of the classes and characters and Jeremy's artistic interpretation of them...

*drool*


----------



## Khur (Feb 11, 2003)

Did everyone get their raw LgC Compiled text who wanted it?


----------



## Ruavel (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Khur_
> *Did everyone get their raw LgC Compiled text who wanted it?*



I received it and printed it out yesterday afternoon, but with fencing training and trying to prepare a proposal for a publisher I haven't had time to go through it yet...

I'm pretty confident that we've everything for the King's Warden and the Maitre d'Escrime sorted aside from any minor typos and syntax errors that will be picked up during the final proofing, but I'll get to it as soon as I can...


----------



## blackshirt5 (Feb 11, 2003)

YAY!!! Don't worry, I won't distribute it, although I'm sure that at least one or two of my players are gonna look over my shoulder when I'm browsing through it.

And my vote would go for the two of em(art + non-art) together in a single zip file.


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 11, 2003)

*Brawler*

I noticed that the Brawler doesn't have an iconic.  Do you need one made?


----------



## Khur (Feb 11, 2003)

*Re: Brawler*



			
				kingpaul said:
			
		

> *I noticed that the Brawler doesn't have an iconic.  Do you need one made? *



 Nah, unless you really want to. The Juxaspect doesn't have an iconic either, and I don't plan on making one.

Thanks, though.


----------



## reddist (Feb 11, 2003)

My bad.  I'm a slacker, I know.  If anyone has the time and the desire, feel free to play with either of my LgCs.

As an excuse, I HAVE been busy  There'll be no less than four books out this spring w/ my name on them somewhere!

Thanks again to Khur for spearheading this venture.  I am really looking forward to seeing the final product.

Hey Khur, think you could email me whatever working copy you've been showing around?  I can't receive it at my work address, I'll send you my yahoo address here in a sec.

Good work, gentlemen

-Reddist


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 12, 2003)

*comments*

Alright, here's what I found.  I'll be honest, I was focusing on the Divine Weapon, but I did read through the entire document.  No offense is meant by any of these comments


p. 3, 2nd paragraph: "...such as the in the title: Ch'Tal's Hammer."  This seems to be missing something.
p. 5, Divine Awareness - since Darkvision got incremented, do you think that Lowlight should as well?
p. 5, Might of the Eternal is an (Ex) ability
p. 5, now that Darvision is incremented, Kaob should have it at 100'
p. 6, in Thunderer's stat block, a comma (,) is missing between Quiet Step and Stamina
p. 7, I don't think apostate is a proper term to be using in that write-up. This is the definition that I'm used to.
p. 8, I like the spell.  However, could it also be a Cleric spell, since the class that inspired the spell is divine in nature?
p.9, Ch'Tal's stat block.  The term "Greater Deity" and the domain Community are closed content of WotC, and as such, need to be removed.
p. 10, "...force [to] stop evil and injustice."  I think the "to" was missing from the sentence
p. 28, 2nd paragraph.  "She was found that...", I think the "was" shouldn't be there
p. 30.  Nimrod keeps making reference to Ranger abilities, but does not have Ranger as a prerequisite.  Is this intentional?  For instance, the 1st quest mentioned makes note of Ranger levels and Favored Enemy.  What if the character doesn't have these?  They aren't required.
p. 32, paragraph 1.  "...traveling ring...."  That phrase made no sense to me.
That's all I found right now.  I might find more on closer inspection.


----------



## Khur (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: comments*



			
				kingpaul said:
			
		

> *Alright, here's what I found.  I'll be honest, I was focusing on the Divine Weapon, but I did read through the entire document.  No offense is meant by any of these comments. *



 Excellent Paul! 

Please, all of you, don't worry about offending me. I'm not so easily bruised.  (Are some persons really so touchy?) Besides, I want this project to shine. So few foibles when I haven't done the "polish" edits is actually a heartening development.

Most of the changes you've pointed out are great. Low light vision is a simple doubling of sight range in dim light conditions per the _Player's Handbook_, so it doesn't need to be incremented. (That it could be incremented, even for _PHB_ races, is another issue.) The only other one I didn't change is Might of the Eternal. One-time ability bonuses are not denoted by any qualifier in these classes, nor do they need to be.

As for the Nimrod problem, that it needs to have a prerequisite of the Favored Enemy class ability, or have some other means of defining the type of enemies the nimrod must hunt in his quest is beyond doubt. This quest also makes it easier on a character that has fewer ranger levels. Sheridan may shed some light on this subject.

One possibility:

*Prerequisites*
*Special:* The character must possess at least two favored enemies, either through the ranger class ability or some other means, such as a feat or prestige class ability.

*Quests*
Before becoming eligible for achieving nimrod status, the character must eradicate an entire community of each of his favored enemy types per four character levels. At least one specific creature from each of the prospective nimrod's favored enemies must be selected. For example, Venator (Rgr 12) has three favored enemies at this point: beasts, goblinoids, and oozes. To become eligible for nimrod status, Venator must eradicate three groups of favored enemies from the region. He decides to rid his area of a goblin tribe, owlbears, and ochre jellies. The DM must approve any choices the player makes, and the aspirant may not be aided by more than five other characters.

...and etc.


Thanks again!



EDIT: I don't remember putting apostate in the Divine Weapon, but I must have.   I changed it to: "The announcement caused uproar among the prelacy...."


----------



## blackshirt5 (Feb 12, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> * Since you've been so enthusiastic, eager, and helpful at turns, blackshirt5...*




I'm showing this quote to my players and saying "see, not everybody in the world thinks I'm an overeager pain in the ass!"


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Re: comments*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Are some persons really so touchy?*



Yes, especially when it deals with their creation.

Anyway, I've got a present for you.  I did some tweaking, so tell me what you think.


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: comments*



			
				kingpaul said:
			
		

> *Anyway, I've got a present for you.  I did some tweaking, so tell me what you think. *



I forgot the attachment...let's try that again.


----------



## reddist (Feb 12, 2003)

*Mike the Brawler*

Hee hee 

I have not yet purchased d20 Modern (gasp! the horror!) so I'll have to take your word on the conversions, but the rest I like!

Thanks for taking the time to do this.  Hmm.... give Mike a mission?  Aside from drinking with his buddies and knocking out thugs, what would he be passionate about?  Does he have a runaway (or recently disappeared) younger sister?  Does he use his skill and new-found contacts to search for her and deal out his own brand of justice?

Does he team up with some other toughs to clean up some rancid, sordid part of town?  Does he have a nemisis?  Is he driven to be the best there is, searching out other brawlers to challenge them?  Do the clues as to his sister's whereabouts lead him to he become a part of an illegal underground gladiator ring?  Does he fall in love with a street waif/heroin addict, and make a vow to help her clean up and beat the snot out of her pimp?

Does this sound like a bad Van Damme moive?  

Anyway, just some stray thoughts to flesh him out

Thanks again!

Reddist


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Mike the Brawler*



			
				reddist said:
			
		

> *I have not yet purchased d20 Modern (gasp! the horror!) so I'll have to take your word on the conversions, but the rest I like!*



Well, the main rules can be found here.


----------



## reddist (Feb 12, 2003)

woo lookit that.  Bookmark.

Thanks.


----------



## Khur (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Mike the Brawler*



			
				reddist said:
			
		

> *Does this sound like a bad Van Damme moive?*



 Well, shouldn't it sound like that? 

All seriousness aside , excellent work Paul. I like it! I'll give it a run-through and see if it's all kosher. I have to say, I absolutely love the Catholic School background. Too cool.

Thanks!


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Re: Mike the Brawler*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *All seriousness aside , excellent work Paul. I like it! I'll give it a run-through and see if it's all kosher. I have to say, I absolutely love the Catholic School background. Too cool.*



Thanks.  I'm think that the Juxaspect would be another good candidate to be brought forward...haven't thought that completely through though.  Probably in an Urban Arcana type setting.  Hmmmm......


----------



## d20Dwarf (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Mike the Brawler*



			
				reddist said:
			
		

> *Hee hee
> 
> Does he fall in love with a street waif/heroin addict, and make a vow to help her clean up and beat the snot out of her pimp?
> 
> *




If her pimp was Sho Nuf then I'd probably buy the DVD.


----------



## Khur (Feb 12, 2003)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> *If her pimp was Sho Nuf then I'd probably buy the DVD.  *



The Shogun of Harlem!  I'd buy that too!

Gotta get that Glow!

(Man, am I cheesy or what?)


----------



## Khur (Feb 13, 2003)

*TESTOSTERONE!*

Okay, on analysis Mike is still a great character, but I have a few issues. His ability scores are over the top, man. Can't the guy have some flaws or at least something resembling one? How about Str 18, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 12, or something along those lines? Yes, that means less skill points.

Another thing is the background, though admittedly fluff, is flat. A guy with these ability scores and a penchant for sports gets scholarships and All-American status. He doesn't just walk away, something bad has to happen.

Try this Paul/Reddist/Wil Upchurch goes to Texas inspired background on for size:

 Born the third son of eight children to a bricklayer and a schoolteacher, Michael was raised in Erie, Pennsylvania. At the behest of his deeply religious mother, Mike went to Our Lady of Peace grade school and Erie Cathedral Preparatory School. (It was also from his mother, a Venezuelan expatriate, that Mike learned fluent Spanish.) Given the religious ambiguity of his father, Mike never got into religion, especially after being forced to go to Catholic schools his whole life.

The one thing that Mike excelled at while in school was sports. He was a member of Prep’s football and wrestling teams, and participated in boxing and kung fu outside of school. In fact, Mike won several awards due to his extraordinary prowess, including the Pennsylvania Golden Gloves, 178-pound Division. He worked with his father and taught kids martial arts in what little spare time he could find. His parents hoped he would continue on to college, preferably Notre Dame. Then it all derailed.

Mike's older sister, Sarah, was assaulted at a college party and Mike found the guys responsible. He won't talk about it, but of the four men involved in the fisticuffs, only Mike was left standing. Two went to the hospital. One went to the morgue.

Seventeen at the time, Mike was sent to juvenile detention for a year and served four more years in a prison work farm for manslaughter and felony assault charges. In prison, Mike had to fight only twice before the others left him alone. He became stronger and more of a loner during his incarceration. The shine had been taken off of life.

Mike, upon his release, separated himself from his family in his shame, and wandered the cities of America. He knew construction and was able to work in that field, sometimes he bounced for clubs, and he'd help teach at local dojos or gyms until someone found out he was a killer. He had trouble keeping jobs and became a heavy drinker in his despondence. 

Finally, Mike began traveling as a pit- and shoot-fighter in the darker side of America's nightlife scene, and doing odd jobs here and there. It was a gritty way to live, but the money was decent. It was during this time that Mike began to see "unusual" things, which he chalked up to a sore head or too much Wild Turkey. Occasionally Mike righted some wrongs and butted heads with thugs and lowlifes, making himself a few enemies and straightening out a few of the downtrodden. The man's true heart always came to the fore under pressure.

During some time working as a laborer in farm country near Kansas City, Mike noticed the seedy, backwater bar he was in, called KC Mac's Pit Stop, had a cage for fights. One night Mike, weary of the life he was leading, announced that he could take anyone who dared faced him. The gauntlet thrown, of course, one of the local bruisers, Sam Comstock, took up the challenge.

Casey MacTurney, the bar owner, scheduled the bout for three days later to allow the news to draw more people to his bar. Mike and Sam faced off, but Mike beat the man down so quickly and brutally it was hardly a show. Mike claimed it was all too easy, so some of Sam's friends tried to make the braggart eat his words, but all three of them went down in minutes. A few other tough customers figured they could take Mike, now that he was tired and bruised. All said, Lindowski was able to dispatch nine people that night and didn't fall once.

Several days later, Mike got a call from MacTurney to come to the Pit Stop that night. When Mike arrived, there was a crowd waiting for him. Mike was sure they all wanted a piece of him, but found out that they were all there, including Sam Comstock, to challenge him to a drinking match. He had proven he could fight, but to win total respect Mike would have to hold his liquor.

A lake of spirits was consumed, but at the end of the night only Michael remained conscious. His challengers laid passed out on the floor, or had already been carried away by friends. Folks got to calling Mike "KC's Bull". Rumors began to fly that Mike couldn't be beaten, like he was some sort of hero, and Sam Comstock was one of his loudest supporters.

No matter where he went, including trips to Brazil and Thailand for matches, Mike regularly returned to KC Mac's Pit Stop to see his buddies and put a few of them under the table. It was on one such vacation that Mike received a letter. Mike's mother had found him; his father was dead.

At the funeral, Mike finally got what he wanted, but never expected: forgiveness. In fact, it had always been there, waiting. He didn't think to ask how his mother new to write KC's. That answer came too.

A man in a slick, grey suit, military looking with silver hair, approached Mike as he walked from the graveyard. "Sorry 'bout your loss, son, " said the man in a gravely Texas drawl, "but are ya gonna knock in heads for the rest of you're miserable time on this ball, or do ya wanna do somethin' meaningful? Ya see, I know about this boy who got sent to prison for doin' the right thing. I think a boy like that has potential...the ability to make a real difference. I also know it makes his momma real sad to see him wasting his life fightin' and picklin' his liver in hick bars. What do you think?" The pitch was followed by a long drag on a cheap cigarette.

Something stirred in Mike's soul as he locked eyes with the rugged-faced Texan. "I think you should come back after the wake. Whoever you are, you ain't invited. Come by tomorrow. We'll talk."

The stranger smiled, nodded, and walked away.... 

Yeah, it's melodramatic, and it hasn't got Sho Nuf, but it's still the beginning of a bad (good?) Van Damme movie. 

Anyway, how about one of Mike's quotes,

 "C'mon! Nuns at my grade school hit harder than that!"


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: TESTOSTERONE!*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Another thing is the background, though admittedly fluff, is flat. A guy with these ability scores and a penchant for sports gets scholarships and All-American status. He doesn't just walk away, something bad has to happen.
> 
> Try this Paul/Reddist/Wil Upchurch goes to Texas inspired background on for size:
> <...snip...>
> ...



I like it.  I just wanted to get something out as an example.  Now, I hope I don't have Wade mad at me for playing around, but here's *another* example.


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: Re: TESTOSTERONE!*



			
				kingpaul said:
			
		

> *Now, I hope I don't have Wade mad at me for playing around, but here's another example.   *



Alright, I admit I threw the background together just before I went to bed.  In hindsight, its a bit cheesy.  He should get thrown into Dept. 7 after the first kill, which is how he picks up all his Plane knowledge.


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: TESTOSTERONE!*



			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *His ability scores are over the top, man. Can't the guy have some flaws or at least something resembling one? How about Str 18, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 12, or something along those lines? Yes, that means less skill points.*



His scores (Str 18, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 11) were actually how I rolled them...well, before the 4 stat increases, which were +1 Str, +2 Dex and +1 Con).  I used the 6 4d6, drop the lowest, place the scores where you want them method.  Its how my group *always* creates characters.  Sometimes we get lucky (my latest character has 2 17s and 4 15s) and sometimes not (the one prior had nothing over a 14).  If you want to tweak the stats, I guess that's OK.  My thrust is that he's an LgC, and should have fairly impressive stats...my 2 coppers.


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 16, 2003)

*Maj. MacLeod*

Just to let eveyrone know, I'm in the process of giving this guy a major overhaul, both in stats and story.  If you have any comments or concerns, go ahead an post them.


----------



## blackshirt5 (Feb 18, 2003)

BUMPing to the top, BTW, when didja say this was gonna be out, MArch?


----------



## Khur (Feb 18, 2003)

I like Pat MacLeod, Paul. (And I like the nod towards Highlander.) I'm very interested in your overhaul, though I wonder why you feel he needed a serious one?

AS for the release, barring the addition of more stuff that must be edited, the PDF sans art should be released by the end of March or so. It depends on how much time I have.

Thanks!


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 18, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *I like Pat MacLeod, Paul. (And I like the nod towards Highlander.) I'm very interested in your overhaul, though I wonder why you feel he needed a serious one?*



That's easy...I wasn't happy with how he looked upon reflection, and wanted to expand the backstory some


----------



## Khur (Feb 18, 2003)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> *That's easy...I wasn't happy with how he looked upon reflection, and wanted to expand the backstory some *




Eskalent!


----------



## Ruavel (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Khur_
> *As for the release, barring the addition of more stuff that must be edited, the PDF sans art should be released by the end of March or so. It depends on how much time I have.*



I've started looking at a PrC to go with The King's Warden, but I don't know when it will be ready (I have a national comp in 3 1/2 weeks and spend most of my spare time training at the moment)...

is there any chance of information/material being added once the document is released, ie producing the occasional 'update'...? or is that the last thing anybody wants to consider...?


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 19, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *Eskalent!*



Well, here's the revision, what do you think?


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 19, 2003)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> *Well, here's the revision, what do you think? *



Just realized I forgot to mark Drive and Pilot as cross-class skills for the Smart Hero...oops.


----------



## reddist (Feb 19, 2003)

I'll have to spend some more time reading it, but I do like the continuation of Mike's story.  Adds some continuity/credibilty to both backstories.

-Reddist


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 19, 2003)

reddist said:
			
		

> *I'll have to spend some more time reading it, but I do like the continuation of Mike's story.  Adds some continuity/credibilty to both backstories.*



Which is one of the reasons I did it.  I've had Modern for a while now, but haven't found anyone to play even *one* session.  This afforded me the opportunity to create characters for something other than my own amusement.


----------



## kingpaul (Feb 27, 2003)

*bump*


----------



## blackshirt5 (Mar 6, 2003)

Another BUMP.

When is this gonna be ready?  I'm itching to see it.


----------



## Ruavel (Mar 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by blackshirt5_
> *When is this gonna be ready? I'm itching to see it.*



 Think what it's like for those of us who worked on it... I think I speak for us all when I say we're just as anxious as you are...

I'm pretty confident that Khur will let us all know as soon as it's ready for us all to look at...

at least, that's what I'm hoping...


----------



## Khur (Mar 6, 2003)

"He whom the gods would destroy they first drive mad."

All seriousness aside , I have to apologize. First, this may take a little longer than I anticipated due to my paying projects. (When I volunteered for this, I didn't have any paying projects.) 

Secondly, the art is being done very slowly, due to Jeremy's school schedule. I'll get the non-art version done ASAP, and give regular updates as I can.

Thanks everyone!

PS: Paul, I like Pat (the Juxaspect). Thanks for that work.


----------



## reddist (Mar 6, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *
> 
> PS: Paul, I like Pat (the Juxaspect). Thanks for that work. *




Indeed, thanks again for picking up my slack

-Reddist


----------



## kingpaul (Mar 6, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *PS: Paul, I like Pat (the Juxaspect). Thanks for that work. *



No problem.  It allowed me to play with the Modern system a bit more, which was fun.


----------



## kingpaul (Mar 6, 2003)

reddist said:
			
		

> *Indeed, thanks again for picking up my slack*



No problem.  I can understand folks getting busy and not having time to get stuff done...happens all the time.


----------



## Ruavel (Mar 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Khur_
> *All seriousness aside , I have to apologize. First, this may take a little longer than I anticipated due to my paying projects. (When I volunteered for this, I didn't have any paying projects.)
> 
> Secondly, the art is being done very slowly, due to Jeremy's school schedule. I'll get the non-art version done ASAP, and give regular updates as I can.*



is there anything that the rest of us can help with to take the pressure off you a little...?


----------



## Khur (Mar 7, 2003)

Ruavel said:
			
		

> *is there anything that the rest of us can help with to take the pressure off you a little...? *




Not really. It's all layout design work now, besides editing Paul's character and the sample Storm. That is, unless I'm missing something. 

Thanks muchly for the offer, though.


----------



## Ruavel (Mar 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Khur_
> *Thanks muchly for the offer, though.*



 no problems... just wanted ya to know that we're all here to help if it's needed... well, I'm here to help, anyway... I probably shouldn't be volunteering other people's time... 

I hope the paid work is going well...


----------



## kingpaul (Mar 7, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *besides editing Paul's character*




::gasp::  You had to edit him?  He wasn't perfect?  Oh the agony, the pain, the humiliation!  I do not know how I can survive!


----------



## Khur (Mar 7, 2003)

Er... by "edit" I mean read thoroughly and with a critical eye. I may not find any mistakes. Mike Lindowski was near perfect statistically, if not perfect, if I remember correctly. One never knows until one reads, though.


----------



## kingpaul (Mar 8, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *Er... by "edit" I mean read thoroughly and with a critical eye. I may not find any mistakes. Mike Lindowski was near perfect statistically, if not perfect, if I remember correctly. One never knows until one reads, though.*



I knew what you meant, hence the smiley face.  My comment was meant highly tongue-in-cheek.


----------



## Khur (Mar 8, 2003)

Mine too!  (Hence the goofy-grin smiley.) Don't worry about me. I rarely take things the wrong way. I notice I come across as serious sometimes when I don't mean to, though.

On a serious note, though, I really appreciate this direction you've taken the book, Paul. To me, a diversity of applicability and ideas is very valuable. I feel like this bold move into _d20 Modern_ with the LgCs is just the type of creativity a good piece of work needs. It's one of those things I look at and say to myself, "I wish I had thought of that." Kudos!

In fact, there's a lot of that in this book from the various authors, I notice as I look over the work. It's SWEET!

One question: Is Department-7 part of the SRD? I don't think it is, but I want to make sure. We can just make up a name for a secretive "no such agency" if it isn't.

Thanks again!


----------



## kingpaul (Mar 8, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *On a serious note, though, I really appreciate this direction you've taken the book, Paul. To me, a diversity of applicability and ideas is very valuable. I feel like this bold move into d20 Modern with the LgCs is just the type of creativity a good piece of work needs. It's one of those things I look at and say to myself, "I wish I had thought of that." Kudos!*



Thank you.  I realized, looking at those 2 LgCs, that they could fairly easily be ported to Modern.  If LgCs are good for standard fantasy, why not Modern times as well?  Next question though is: Can they be ported to Future (which debuts next year...supposedly)?


			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *In fact, there's a lot of that in this book from the various authors, I notice as I look over the work. It's SWEET!*



Hey, diversity is good, and it keeps the creative juices flowin'


			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *One question: Is Department-7 part of the SRD? I don't think it is, but I want to make sure. We can just make up a name for a secretive "no such agency" if it isn't.*



Why yes, yes it is.


----------



## Khur (Mar 8, 2003)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> *Why yes, yes it is. *




I knew you'd know, so rather than looking myself, I just asked.  Very cool. Hat's off to ya!


----------



## kingpaul (Mar 11, 2003)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> *Well, here's the revision, what do you think? *



Found another error.  Pat's Massive Damage # should be 14, not 146.


----------



## reddist (Mar 13, 2003)

Bump, and if you guys haven't seen this yet, here's another LgC contest...

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/news...=article&sid=1774&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

Oops, I bet that didn't paste right....

Oh good, it did

Later,

-Reddist


----------



## kingpaul (Mar 13, 2003)

reddist said:
			
		

> *Bump, and if you guys haven't seen this yet, here's another LgC contest...
> 
> http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/news...=article&sid=1774&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0*



Thanks for the upudate.  Hmm...I wonder if we can submit our own creations again?


----------



## reddist (Mar 13, 2003)

I've got several pages of stuff I wrote before I realized Wil was only asking for tank types.  I've got notes on a rogue, a ranger, and a mage LgC I could spend some more time on...

Just imagine what you could do with an evil cleric LgC....whoah nellie.

Ooo hey.. I'm taking a week's vacation end of March.  This settles it... I'm taking my laptop

-Reddist


----------



## Khur (Mar 13, 2003)

reddist said:
			
		

> *Ooo hey.. I'm taking a week's vacation end of March.  This settles it... I'm taking my laptop*



 You're a madman!


----------



## Ruavel (Mar 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by reddist_
> *Bump, and if you guys haven't seen this yet, here's another LgC contest...*



I'm tempted but this time I think I'll let everyone else enter the contest...

with trying to contribute to the EN World City Project as well as preparing a manuscript (that should get me my first paid work) I really don't have much spare time... coupled with the fact that I already own Path of Magic and won two copies of Path of the Sword last time so another copy of each (whilst they are awesome books that take pride of place in my modest collection) wouldn't be much use to me...

but I'll certainly be following the progress of the comp with interest...


----------



## kingpaul (Mar 19, 2003)

I'm seriously thinking of entering, even though I own every Path book.


----------



## Ruavel (Mar 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kingpaul_
> *I'm seriously thinking of entering, even though I own every Path book.*



Like I said, it's not just that I own the books they're offering as the prizes...



It's actually hard for me to resist entering this contest, but I really must get some work done at some stage...

hopefully I'll be able to jump in on the next one (if there ever is one)...

best of luck Paul... I think you'll have quite a distinct advantage over anyone entering this comp for the first time... I think we've all developed an excellent understanding of the Legendary Class... it should serve you well...



go kick some LgC-writing-butt...!


----------



## kingpaul (Mar 21, 2003)

Ruavel said:
			
		

> *best of luck Paul... I think you'll have quite a distinct advantage over anyone entering this comp for the first time... I think we've all developed an excellent understanding of the Legendary Class... it should serve you well...
> 
> 
> 
> go kick some LgC-writing-butt...! *



Thanks, I sure hope to.  I have several ideas kicking around, most of them concerning mult-class characters.  I seem to like those, don't I?


----------



## Ruavel (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kingpaul_
> *I have several ideas kicking around, most of them concerning multi-class characters. I seem to like those, don't I? *



well, with that in mind I'll be even more keen to keep track of events in the contest... just to see what you produce this time...



btw - just so you know I've got an NPC in the campaign I currently run heading off on his first quest to become a Divine Weapon with the PC's in tow... they are absolutely terrified of how powerful this guy will become...



very cool...


----------



## kingpaul (Mar 28, 2003)

bump, bu-bump, bump, buuuuump


----------



## Khur (Mar 28, 2003)

Sorry guys.  

I know things are dragging on. I'm in the middle of editing and writing stuff for a 200-page book and about 5,000 words worth of reviews. I'll try to have a serious update sometime next week.

Thanks for your patience.

BTW, those of you interested in replies and continuation of this thread should subscribe to it instead of bumping it. Just a freindly suggestion. Or does bumping have some other effect?


----------



## kingpaul (Mar 28, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *BTW, those of you interested in replies and continuation of this thread should subscribe to it instead of bumping it. Just a freindly suggestion. Or does bumping have some other effect? *



Well, I do subscribe, but bumping increases your post count.


----------



## blackshirt5 (Mar 28, 2003)

Bumping it brings it to the top, where everybody can see it.  Which I think is a good thing, since new people are joining all the time who might be interested in it.


----------



## kingpaul (Apr 2, 2003)

I realize that the aforementioned LgC contest is going on, but here's the 1st one I did that's already been submitted.  I already own the prizes, so if this helps another entrant, so be it.  What do folks think?


----------



## blackshirt5 (Apr 2, 2003)

I think...that I can't wait to see the LgC PDF.  Can you give any word on when it's gonna be available paul?


----------



## kingpaul (Apr 2, 2003)

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> *I think...that I can't wait to see the LgC PDF.  Can you give any word on when it's gonna be available paul? *



Don't ask me.  Khur's the one running with this.  And speaking of that; I asked Steve @ d20 Magazine Rack if we could push the participants to this Netbook (the entrants will be detailed in the June issue of d20MR).  He said when the contest end approaches to give him another email and he'd mention it.


----------



## kingpaul (Apr 3, 2003)

*Scott Moore?*

Does anyone have Scott Moore's (the Nimrod creator) email address.  I'd like to use some abilities that he statted out for the Nimrod in a class I'm doing for d20MR's LgC contest.


----------



## Ruavel (Apr 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kingpaul_
> *I realize that the aforementioned LgC contest is going on, but here's the 1st one I did that's already been submitted. I already own the prizes, so if this helps another entrant, so be it. What do folks think?*



I like the concept... cool way to have some serious magical item creation in a game...

I would have gone into a little more detail in the descriptions of the abilities (to give it a little more flavour) and would have the Feat requirements a little different (the same vein but slightly different perspective)...

I'd be happy to do and edit of this one and repost it to see if you like my suggestions... (and I'd be happy to do the same with any others you intend to submit if you like)...

up to you though... it's pretty damn cool as it stands...


----------



## kingpaul (Apr 3, 2003)

Ruavel said:
			
		

> *I like the concept... cool way to have some serious magical item creation in a game...*



Main reason I did it.


			
				Ruavel said:
			
		

> *I would have gone into a little more detail in the descriptions of the abilities (to give it a little more flavour) and would have the Feat requirements a little different (the same vein but slightly different perspective)...*



That's my weak point, flavor text.  I'm fairly proficient with mechanics and getting them together, but when it comes to flavor, I get tongue-tied and twisty-fingers.


			
				Ruavel said:
			
		

> *I'd be happy to do and edit of this one and repost it to see if you like my suggestions... (and I'd be happy to do the same with any others you intend to submit if you like)...
> 
> up to you though... it's pretty damn cool as it stands... *



I'd appreciate that, as I'd like to have this in The Netbook of Legendary Classes, Vol 2.  But I'm glad you liked it as is; improvement, however, is always the goal.


----------



## Ruavel (Apr 4, 2003)

*Lord/Lady Artificer...*



> _Originally posted by kingpaul_
> *I'd appreciate that, as I'd like to have this in The Netbook of Legendary Classes, Vol 2. But I'm glad you liked it as is; improvement, however, is always the goal.*



consider it done... I'll hammer out some of the changes/suggestions and post it here some time in the next few days...


----------



## kingpaul (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: Lord/Lady Artificer...*



			
				Ruavel said:
			
		

> *consider it done... I'll hammer out some of the changes/suggestions and post it here some time in the next few days... *



Thank you, but no rush.


----------



## Ruavel (Apr 8, 2003)

kingpaul,

just thought I'd quickly post this for you to have a look at...

it's a start on an edited Lord/Lady Artificer... tell me what you think so far...


----------



## Ruavel (Apr 9, 2003)

*Lord/Lady Artificer*

thought I'd post this again, but this time with at least a little explanation of the changes I've made...

hope I haven't ruined the LgC at all...


----------



## kingpaul (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: Lord/Lady Artificer*



			
				Ruavel said:
			
		

> *thought I'd post this again, but this time with at least a little explanation of the changes I've made...
> 
> hope I haven't ruined the LgC at all... *



Ruavel,

Thanks for the edits.

I hadn't thought of the 2 Craft skill requirement.  You're right, that would seriously reduce the available skills the character could have.

As for the feats, you're right, my original would let the character to grab the "cheap" item creation feats.

Your study time is an interesting twist that I haven't thought of.  As for the price limits on the items, I had thought of that, but I thought the large amount of gp base cost would be sufficient.  I had the 500,000 gp limit on purpose.  Most quests take time, and shouldn't just be a walk in the park.  Therefore, I thought the 500,000 sufficient enough to show the character is serious in pursuing this class.

Economical creation: you spelled out what I wanted to express better, thank you.

Efficient creation: I think this should be a Su ability, which is what I had...at least I think so...don't have the file in front of me at the moment.

Empowered creation: Why did you reduce the increase from 3 to 2?

Multiple creation: maybe its only a house rule, but we allow that already in my campaigns.

Enhanced x: I know in Sword, they called the stat bumps creative names, but in the other books, they seemed to be moving towards just calling them Enhanced.  There are some instances in each of the other books with creative names, but Enhanced seemed to be way things were looking.


----------



## Ruavel (Apr 17, 2003)

kingpaul,

no need to thank me... I offered, and in the end it's your class and anything I've written doesn't amount to squat unless you decide you like it...

In response to a couple of things, I suggested a reduction in Empowered Creation because someone taking this at power level 5 could create a wand of fireball with a Reflex save DC 29... that seems far too high to me... 

and I added multiple creation because under the core rules you can only create one magic item per day, even if it's a simple as a scroll of a 0-level spell set at caster level 1... what you play is definitely a house rule, so I thought this ability would give the LgC even more appeal...

anyway as I've already said, the edits I've made are only suggestions... you are welcome to adopt or ignore them as you see fit...


----------



## kingpaul (Apr 18, 2003)

2nd contest submission...and I think I might've gone a wee bit over the top with this one.


----------



## kingpaul (Apr 18, 2003)

3rd entry


----------



## blackshirt5 (Apr 18, 2003)

So, um, are we gonna see the Netbook of Legendary Classes anytime soon?


----------



## kingpaul (May 6, 2003)

Chris,

How *dare* you work on such a cool project as the Book of Templates Deluxe.  

So, now that that's out of the way, or shortly will be, hows the LgC NB coming along?  

::ducks for cover::


----------



## Khur (May 6, 2003)

*Smooth!*

Excellent timing Paul. 

My goal is to finish the text version of the LgC Book ASAP, now that the BoT-DE is winding up. Then I'll redo it with art. So, I estimate only a (few) weeks wait at most for the text version. I really want to get it into everyone's hands; interested parties have waited too long. (Yes, I mean you blackshirt.) 

I'm sorry I had to put this PDF aside for a short while, and I thank you all for your patience. I'm actually going to finish this PDF before doing any further work for pay.

So, if you can bear it for a little while longer, it's a comin'....


----------



## kingpaul (May 6, 2003)

*NB of LgC and PCGen*

All,

As you can see from my sig, I'm the Publisher Liaison for PCGen.  Do any of the contributors here mind of PCGen would incorporate this book in their data files?


----------



## Khur (May 6, 2003)

I have no problem with the stuff going into PCGen. You may want to contact Greg Benage at FFG to see if he has any issues with the idea.


----------



## Khur (May 6, 2003)

Rauvel, I need your email address if possible. You can email it to me. The one I have seems not to be working.


----------



## kingpaul (May 7, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *I have no problem with the stuff going into PCGen. You may want to contact Greg Benage at FFG to see if he has any issues with the idea.*



I've tried, multiple times, to contact folks at FFG.  Several emails and even a snail mail.  I've yet to hear from them.


----------



## Ruavel (May 7, 2003)

_*kingpaul*_ - I know that I don't mind if you include the King's Warden and the Maitre in the PCGen data files...

_*Khur*_ - I've sent you an email from my new email account... same provider but a different username... sorry if I've caused you any problems whilst you were trying to contact me on the old one...

btw - how are you guys...? once the momentum slowed on this project I kinda lost track of what you'd been up to (until kingpaul mentioned the Book of Template Deluxe)...


----------



## Khur (May 7, 2003)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> *I've tried, multiple times, to contact folks at FFG.  Several emails and even a snail mail.  I've yet to hear from them. *



 Hmmm. Sounds strange. I'd hold off then, unless you think the mechanics are clearly OGC. You're better at judging that than I am, Paul. Like I said, though, you have permission to use my class.



			
				Ruavel said:
			
		

> *kingpaul - I know that I don't mind if you include the King's Warden and the Maitre in the PCGen data files...
> 
> Khur - I've sent you an email from my new email account... same provider but a different username... sorry if I've caused you any problems whilst you were trying to contact me on the old one...
> 
> btw - how are you guys...? once the momentum slowed on this project I kinda lost track of what you'd been up to (until kingpaul mentioned the Book of Template Deluxe)...*



 No worries. You should have something from me by now. Yeah, I've been really working lately. I want to get this PDF done, at the very least for all of us and blackshirt. 

Right now I have a lot of "real" projects on the go, one of which is _The Book of Templates; Deluxe Edition_ from Silverthorne Games, in which I'm a co-author and editor (dangerous combo, but we have proofreaders). I'm also doing a "kung-fu Buddha" type campaign arc book with three adventures and lotsa cool OGC in it for Monkeygod (titled _Mirage Illumination_), and I've got at least 3 other irons in the fire, not to mention some editing work coming down the pike. Add getting married in 3 months and a "real job" (and possibly a second), and you've got quite a cocktail.

Yes, I sleep....

Still, I'm finishing this PDF next. Promise. Now, *cracks the whip on self* back to work for me....


----------



## Krug (May 7, 2003)

Poor guy. By the way, the winners for the D20 magazine contest have been announced...


----------



## Ruavel (May 7, 2003)

cool... 

any chance of a link to the announcement, Krug...?


----------



## Krug (May 7, 2003)

http://www.d20zines.com/html/module...e=article&sid=397&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

Here u go. 

They say 
"All of these entries will be appearing in the June issue of d20Zine! so you will be able to read and enjoy them all yourself."

I wonder if they mean winning entries or all entries. That would be fun.


----------



## Ghostwind (May 7, 2003)

It will be all entries that were submitted to the contest. Want to edit them, Khur?


----------



## Krug (May 7, 2003)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> *It will be all entries that were submitted to the contest. Want to edit them, Khur?  *




Cool. able to give us a brief preview of what the entries were? just as an appetizer.


----------



## Khur (May 7, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *Poor guy....*



 Me? Nah. Well, financially, yeah, for the moment. Dang economy....  If I do get rich, you're all hired for gaming work! We'll have fun, but Krug has to be the quarterback.



			
				Ghostwind said:
			
		

> *It will be all entries that were submitted to the contest. Want to edit them, Khur?  *



 I'd love to if you can wait about 6 weeks.


----------



## Ghostwind (May 7, 2003)

Unfortunately, the June issue comes out in about four weeks. Btw, I won't have time to give any sneak peeks, but a lot of the entries are also featured in the contest here...


----------



## Krug (May 7, 2003)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> *Unfortunately, the June issue comes out in about four weeks. Btw, I won't have time to give any sneak peeks, but a lot of the entries are also featured in the contest here... *




No worries. Let us know when it hits the site! Excellent magazine btw!


----------



## kingpaul (May 7, 2003)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> *Unfortunately, the June issue comes out in about four weeks. Btw, I won't have time to give any sneak peeks, but a lot of the entries are also featured in the contest here... *



Any chance of a critique of the entries; the good, the bad and the ugly?


----------



## kingpaul (May 7, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> * I'd love to if you can wait about 6 weeks.*



Well, my 3 entries are already posted here if you want to get a jump-start.


----------



## Ruavel (May 8, 2003)

*editing...*

I'm happy to help out, at least a little...

if kingpaul still trusts me after the sample-edit I did of the Lady/Lord Artificer, I'd be only too happy to look at his other two...

I'm always willing to try to fit a little more into my schedule...


----------



## kingpaul (May 8, 2003)

*Re: editing...*



			
				Ruavel said:
			
		

> *if kingpaul still trusts me after the sample-edit I did of the Lady/Lord Artificer, I'd be only too happy to look at his other two...*



Knock yourself out.


----------



## Ruavel (May 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kingpaul_
> *Knock yourself out.*



Is it OK if I just do the editing instead...? 

I'm not sure taking a concussion into a sabre competition tomorrow night will be terribly helpful...



I'll email you each one as I get through them and we can discuss changes before posting them here again in a form you're 100% happy with...


----------



## kingpaul (May 8, 2003)

Ruavel said:
			
		

> *Is it OK if I just do the editing instead...?
> 
> I'm not sure taking a concussion into a sabre competition tomorrow night will be terribly helpful...*



::gasp::
Where is your sense of adventure?  A concussion during a sabre competition should be quite fun!  


			
				Ruavel said:
			
		

> *I'll email you each one as I get through them and we can discuss changes before posting them here again in a form you're 100% happy with... *



That works.


----------



## Ruavel (May 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kingpaul_
> *::gasp::
> Where is your sense of adventure? A concussion during a sabre competition should be quite fun! *



given the way most people fence sabre over here I'm almost guaranteed to end up with concussion anyway... too many people treating it like the battleaxe of the sport...



anyway, enough complaining about my competitors... time to get back to work...



I'm looking at the first one now... the Master "Indiana Jones" Archaeologist...


----------



## kingpaul (May 8, 2003)

Ruavel said:
			
		

> *I'm looking at the first one now... the Master "Indiana Jones" Archaeologist... *



Oh no!  You have discovered part of my inspiration.  I must now flee in shame.


----------



## Ruavel (May 8, 2003)

why would you flee...? 

everyone else uses books, movies, etc for inspiration... and he's just such a damn cool guy...



although you do need an ability which allows the Master Archaeologist to never ever lose an unimportant article of clothing (eg hat)...


----------



## kingpaul (May 9, 2003)

Ruavel said:
			
		

> *everyone else uses books, movies, etc for inspiration... and he's just such a damn cool guy...*



I like Laura Croft to.  Tomb Raider is a cool game, and I did like how they did the movie.  Can't wait to see TR2...when's that come out, this year, next?


			
				Ruavel said:
			
		

> *although you do need an ability which allows the Master Archaeologist to never ever lose an unimportant article of clothing (eg hat)...*



Now, that would be a bit *too* obvious in the derivative chain.


----------



## Ruavel (May 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kingpaul_
> *I like Laura Croft to. Tomb Raider is a cool game, and I did like how they did the movie. Can't wait to see TR2...when's that come out, this year, next?*



I thought she might be the other model for this LgC...

I never played the game, but I did enjoy the movie... after seeing it, one of my girlfriend's major aims in life is to live in a mansion with bungee-rope system set up in the main hall...



but I digress...

I've made some progress on editing the Master Archaeologist, although having my D20 Modern book in the possession of a friend of mine on the other side of the country is making it a little more difficult that it otherwise would be...

well, back to work I guess... would you like me to email you progressive work, or do you wanna see it once I think I've finished...?


----------



## Ruavel (May 10, 2003)

double post...

sorry 'bout that...


----------



## Ruavel (May 13, 2003)

kingpaul...

just sent you a progressive sample of the edit of the master archaeologist... hope you like it so far...


----------



## Khur (May 17, 2003)

Okay.

The compilation and editing is complete, now to layout. Anyone need or want anything, just holler. The edition with art will follow shortly after the unillustrated version. (The artist is finished school for the summer and can get all the inking done.)

Thanks everyone!


----------



## Khur (May 17, 2003)

All,

Here's the section 15of the OGL:

_Open Game License v 1.0a,_ © 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc. 
_System Reference Document,_ © 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.
_Modern System Reference Document,_ © 2002, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Bill Slavicsek, Jeff Grubb, Rich Redman, Charles Ryan, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Richard Baker, Peter Adkison, Bruce R. Cordell, John Tynes, Andy Collins, and JD Wiker.
_Path of the Sword,_ © 2002, Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. 
_The Book of Hallowed Might,_ © 2002, Monte J. Cook. All rights reserved.
_Superior Unarmed Strike_ feat, © 2003, Sean K. Reynolds.
_Cross-Class Learning_ feat, © 2000, Bradley H. Bemis, Jr.
_Compendium of Legendary Classes_, © 2003 to respective authors: Malcolm Davies (King's Warden and Maitre d'escrime classes and characters), Clifford Horowitz (Storm and Warrior of the Broken Wake classes and characters), Eric Jensen (Dwarven Forgemaster class), Paul W. King (Divine Weapon class, characters, Ch'Tal, and Enhanced Critical; Mike Lindowski and Major Patrick MacLeod characters), Scott Moore (Nimrod class and character), Wade Nudson (Brawler and Juxaspect classes), Chris S. Sims (Guardian of the Green and supplemental material for the class; Macarn Eog character; all magic items). Compiler and Editor: Chris S. Sims.

Title Page Credits:

*Authors:* Malcolm Davies, Clifford Horowitz, Eric Jensen, Paul W. King, Scott Moore, Wade Nudson, Chris S. Sims
*Interior Artwork:* Jeremy D. Mohler
*Graphic Design:* Chris S. Sims
*Editor:*  Chris S. Sims

Author names will not appear on individual entries.

Good? Anything missing?

Thanks.


----------



## Ruavel (May 18, 2003)

*I see you shiver with anticip........*

......pation!

Sounds like she's nearly ready to go...

The excitement has me all tingly...



Thanks for all your amazing work, Khur... I think this compendium's success (if it has any) will be due first and foremost to your momumental effort...

If you ever make it to this side of the world, the first half-dozen beers (or whatever your poison may be) are on me...


----------



## Khur (May 19, 2003)

Ready to go, yep, with one caveat:

(BTW, I'll never admit to my poisons in a public forum.  They be legal, but fun all the same.)

Do any of you want to include the material for the d20 Magazine Rack contest in this compilation? Steve Creech is a friend o' mine, and we can do it. If so, as a favor to Steve, I'll give the entries over there a look-see and a quick edit. I'll discard any I think are inappropriate or not good enough (though I doubt that will be any).

It _will not_ add much time to the wait for this book.

Give me a shout here in this forum if you're in favor or against. Either way is fine with me. I just thought it might be an interesting addition. The options are still open for the section 15 of the OGL. Be sure to tell me if you'd rather have a more delineated section 15 (like individual copyrights listed, instead of the current listing). I want everyone to be happy.

Thanks!


----------



## kingpaul (May 19, 2003)

Khur,

Well, I'm cool with my 3 submissions making it into the book.

Ruavel,

I'm not ignoring you.  I've had 5 separate out-of-town meetings in the last 4 weeks.  I'm now, finally, getting around to reading your suggestions.


----------



## Ruavel (May 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kingpaul_
> *Ruavel,
> 
> I'm not ignoring you. I've had 5 separate out-of-town meetings in the last 4 weeks. I'm now, finally, getting around to reading your suggestions.*



no problems...  having had one team and two individual fencing tournaments in the last 11 days, I've been kinda busy as well (not to mention exhausted)... 

I've still not had much of a look at the Wilderness Walker (an issue I'm about to rectify)...

looking forward to your feedback though...


----------



## Ruavel (May 21, 2003)

kingpaul - just in case you haven't checked your email lately, I've sent you the wilderness walker as well now...

a text box in the document needs moving in the version you have, so ignore that bit, but otherwise I think it's done...

looking forward to your feedback, berating, criticism, ect...



do you want the doc's forwarded to Khur as well for his perusal...?


----------



## Khur (May 22, 2003)

I haven't been able to connect to EN World for almost 2 days.

Here's the relevant news:

1) I edited all of the classes for d20 Magazine Rack. I didn't change much--mostly clarity edits, simplifications, and some toning down of overbearing powers.

2) Check out some finals on the art:

Wade Braddock

Holg, the Storm 

Cool eh?

If you made significant changes to the classes submitted to d20 Magazine Rack, you can send them to me with relevant sections highlighted. They may not make it into d20 Zine!, but may be in our li'l compilation revised.

Out!


----------



## Ruavel (May 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Khur_
> *2) Check out some finals on the art:
> 
> Wade Braddock
> ...



very cool...


----------



## Khur (May 25, 2003)

Quick question:

Does anyone here have access to _The Book of Eldritch Might III: The Nexus_? If so, can you post its OGL section 15 here? Thanks!


----------



## Ruavel (Jun 5, 2003)

just a polite *bump* and a request for an update... if you've got time that is, Khur...


----------



## d20Dwarf (Jun 5, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *Quick question:
> 
> Does anyone here have access to The Book of Eldritch Might III: The Nexus? If so, can you post its OGL section 15 here? Thanks!
> 
> *





The Book of Eldritch Might and
Book of Eldritch Might III:The Nexus
Copyright 2001,2002 Monte J.Cook.
All rights reserved.


----------



## Khur (Jun 5, 2003)

Thanks Wil. I'm still plugging away....

More coming.


----------



## Krug (Jul 2, 2003)

Well the ones submitted for the d20 Zine contest are in the latest issue.  Take a look.

Krug/WodeSlinger.


----------



## shadow (Jul 3, 2003)

Will a NetBook of Legendary classes be published anytime soon?  Where can I find out more about this?


----------



## Khur (Jul 3, 2003)

Netbook of Legendary Classes coming sometime next week (sans illustrations). Illustrated version to follow.


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 3, 2003)

Will that inlcude any of the new classes that d20zines new 'zine had, or just the original set?


----------



## Khur (Jul 3, 2003)

All of the classes from _d20 Zine!_ are in the compilation. They're edited, of course. 

Herman Lau's illustration for the Requiem of the Death Moon class will appear in the illustrated book as well, along with illustrations for the Nimrod from Scott Moore.


----------



## Krug (Jul 3, 2003)

Thanks for the hard work Khur. You know, guys whose nicks are 4 letters long and start with K are the coolest, sexiest people.


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 3, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *You know, guys whose nicks are 4 letters long and start with K are the coolest, sexiest people.  *



Hey now!  What about us folks with nicks 8 characters long?


----------



## reddist (Jul 3, 2003)

Well, clearly you are twice as sexy and twice as cool! 

Or... 1/2 as sexy and 1/2 as cool.  Perhaps the sexy/cool factor is more concentrated in to Kxxx nicks.

You decide

-Reddist


----------



## Khur (Jul 13, 2003)

What's dead sexy (IMO) is this book I'm wrapping up--20 legendary classes. Anyone who wants a copy, let me know. It should be done in about 24-48 hours, depending on my real job. The art isn't in yet, of course, but that version is coming.

I'll arrange for it to be posted in the resources on a few sites, I think.

Do we need a 3.5 e conversion?


----------



## reddist (Jul 13, 2003)

woot!


----------



## hong (Jul 13, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *Thanks for the hard work Khur. You know, guys whose nicks are 4 letters long and start with K are the coolest, sexiest people.  *




SUBSCIRBE






Hmm.






UNSUBSCIRBE


----------



## Ruavel (Jul 14, 2003)

> _Quoth Khur..._
> *What's dead sexy (IMO) is this book I'm wrapping up--20 legendary classes. Anyone who wants a copy, let me know. It should be done in about 24-48 hours, depending on my real job. *



oh yeah...! bring it on, baby...

I believe you know my email address, Khur, if that's how you're gonna distribute it... I can hardly wait to see this version and the one with art when it's done...



> _Quoth Khur..._
> *Do we need a 3.5 e conversion?*



I don't know if we _need_ one but it certainly could help increase circulation...



I know I've said it before, but great work Khur...


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 14, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *Anyone who wants a copy, let me know.*



::waves hand insanely::
Consider me interested.  


			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *I'll arrange for it to be posted in the resources on a few sites, I think.*



ENWorld's going to be one of them, yes?


			
				Khur said:
			
		

> *Do we need a 3.5 e conversion?*



Wouldn't hurt.


----------



## Ghostwind (Jul 14, 2003)

I can host the book on my site also...


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 14, 2003)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> *I can host the book on my site also...  *



Now Steve, why would you want to do a silly thing like that?  I mean, after all, you hosted a LgC contest.


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 14, 2003)

Steve,

I must be blind, but I don't think I saw you're from Ft. Wayne before.  I'll be there from 7/21-7/26 for a training (yes, I know GenCon's during that time as well).  I'd like to meet you, as I missed you @ Origins (I was involved in the Mayfair/GB7 Catan games quite a bit).  I'll probably swing down for the ENnies though.


----------



## Ghostwind (Jul 14, 2003)

I'll be at Gen Con working for Bastion Press (booth 1233) the whole time, which means I am leaving sometime on Wednesday for there. If you want to try to meet up for supper or something on Monday or Tuesday, email me and let's see if our schedules can coincide, otherwise catch me at Gen Con (I should be at the Ennies also).


----------



## Khur (Jul 15, 2003)

The non-art version is done (been done for about 8 hours now). The only problem I have is that I don't have "easy" access to a full version of Acrobat. That means no bookmarks or internal links. Is this a problem in a 66-page document? If so, I can get access to Acrobat and add these things. Otherwise, the PDF (exported from InDesign) is ready to go!


----------



## Ruavel (Jul 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Khur..._
> *The non-art version is done (been done for about 8 hours now). The only problem I have is that I don't have "easy" access to a full version of Acrobat. That means no bookmarks or internal links. Is this a problem in a 66-page document? *



 I'm almost tempted to say "No we don't need it" for the non-art version, on the basis that it's primarily being produced to make it easier to print, but something inside me is suggesting that it's going to come back and haunt the project if it isn't done the first time round...

the ultimate dilema... professionalism over "want-it-now!"...



given how much time and effort you've put into this Khur, maybe the decision should be based on how much more effort it's going to be for you to gain access to that full version of Acrobat...


----------



## Khur (Jul 16, 2003)

OK. (sigh) I can't get access to Acrobat after all, so I can't put in bookmarks and links. (Old version of Acrobat + newer Mac = no dice.) If someone else wants to do so befoire the release, please let me know. Otherwise, I'll be emailing the doc to those who want it that way and arranging for its hosting here and elsewhere.

So ... let me know.


----------



## Ruavel (Jul 16, 2003)

Khur

I've already sent you an email about this (hopefully it's waiting in your Inbox) but I thought I'd post here as well just to be sure...

simply put, I can get access to a full version of Acrobat (in about  8 hours time) and I'm happy to have a shot at putting in the bookmarks & links (assuming people trust me enough)...

that said, if people just want to get the document out I can handle it being without bookmarks quite easily...


----------



## Ruavel (Jul 16, 2003)

Well, I've got my hands on the Compiled LgC's...

*drool*



and I've finished putting links in the Table of Contents and the Index...

on to the Bookmarks... 

so far (aside from title page, table of contents, and intro) I've only put bookmarks in for the classes and their sample characters (for those that have them)...

I can put in bookmark entries for New Feats, New Items, etc if that's what people want... any comments/requests...?

Khur, any thoughts on the matter...?


----------



## Ghostwind (Jul 16, 2003)

If you can, make it as a complete of package as possible. Bookmark/link everything.


----------



## Khur (Jul 16, 2003)

What Steve said.  Link web addresses as well, if possible. Please send it back to me so I can test it when you're done. Thanks a lot!


----------



## blackshirt5 (Jul 16, 2003)

We Needs It!!!!  IT MUST BE OURS!

But seriously, do you have an expected date of release?  I'd hate to see this go the way of Zelda D20.


----------



## Khur (Jul 16, 2003)

Two days, tops, blackshirt. Rauvel is working on the bookmarks. Once he's done, the whole thing is done! 

The art-enhanced version will be longer, of course, because I don't even have the art yet.

How's that?


----------



## Ruavel (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ghostwind..._
> *If you can, make it as a complete of package as possible. Bookmark/link everything. *





> _Originally posted by Khur_
> *What Steve said.  Link web addresses as well, if possible. Please send it back to me so I can test it when you're done. Thanks a lot!*



OK... Bookmark & link the hell outta the thing... got it...!



Khur, I'm gonna email you what I hope to make the bookmarks look like so I can get some feedback prior to finishing it up...

also, I've only spotted one weblink (www.d20zines.com) so far... are there any others in there that I've obviously completely missed...?



> *Two days, tops...*



and the clocks ticking...  
pressure's on now...!


----------



## Ruavel (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Quoth blackshirt5..._
> *We Needs It!!!! IT MUST BE OURS!
> 
> But seriously, do you have an expected date of release? I'd hate to see this go the way of Zelda D20.*



 it's been a long time coming, blackshirt, and having had a chance to go through it I think it's worth waiting for... and this is just the non-art version...

90% of all the links I can think to put in are done, and about a quarter of the bookmarks... 

so as soon as I get home from stabbing my coach repeatedly (great stress relief, let me tell you), I'll finish it... then Khur will check it, and assuming I haven't made any glaring obvious blunders, your very own copy will arrive via email soon...


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 17, 2003)

Y'know, I just thought of something.  We should, next year, nominate this book for an ENnie.  Quite some time and effort went into it.


----------



## Sheridan (Jul 17, 2003)

*2 days and counting!!!*

Ahhh...but he did not promise WHICH two days, grasshopper ! 
I assume you already plan on e-mailing all the contributers copies, but any word on where else it may actually get posted?
...Nominated for an ENnie ???  Wooo...too cool...
So, Khur, willing to compile the 3.5 revised edition as well ? 
Thanks again for all your effort, Khur, and yours as well, Ruavel, for being the official last-minute bookmarker!
Take care all, I can't wait to see it !
*Sheridan
-Scott Moore


----------



## Ruavel (Jul 17, 2003)

another quick query, people...

the bookmarks are now completed and I'd reviewing the links...

so far I've left the links invisible so nothing spoils the beautiful layout & design work Khur has put together...

is this going to be OK, do you think...?


----------



## Khur (Jul 17, 2003)

Invisible links only, please.

As for posting, at the very least it should be posted here (in the Resources section) and on d20 Magazine Rack. Perhaps I can finagle it as a freebie onto RPG Now.


----------



## Ruavel (Jul 17, 2003)

> _Quoth Khur..._
> *Invisible links only, please.*



some twit using my email sent you a message about this before checking for a response here...

idiot...


----------



## Khur (Jul 18, 2003)

Alright, the book's done. Anyone want theirs? I'll email it out, just drop me a note (address below).

EDIT: I'll be waiting for responses in my email, so I can mail this baby out once and get it to everyone. A copy will be going to FFG as well -- and Wil Upchurch.


----------



## Khur (Jul 18, 2003)

Okay team, I have a question. Do we want to distribute this PDF as a package (PDF w/no art, PDF w/art, 3.5 revision notes) and thus wait to post it as a resource, or do we release it piecemeal as it’s ready? This decision has nothing to do with how soon contributors and interested parties (that means you blackshirt) who enquire here get a copy, which will be as soon as each section is done. It just has to do with the release to the general public as a downloadable resource.

The way I see it, releasing now has the advantage of getting the project out, with the caveat that some will not return for the art-enhanced version and the 3.5 update. Releasing later gives our consumers the whole shebang at one time, with the caveat of waiting until it’s all done.

FYI, 3.5 revisions don’t look to be all that complicated.

What’s your opinion? Yes, you.

Thanks gang!


----------



## d20Dwarf (Jul 18, 2003)

If it's going to be more than another week or two for the art, I suggest you just release it without the art, but with 3.5 changes. Releasing a 3.0 version doesn't make any sense at this point.


----------



## Sheridan (Jul 18, 2003)

*Versions to release*

I say, let's release the no art, 3.0-compatible version now.  Let's include the 3.5 conversion notes in the version with art.  So there would be two versions:
Preview version - no art, for 3.0.
Full version - with art, for 3.0 and 3.5.
I'll work on 3.5 conversion rules for the Nimrod and 3.5 stats for the character over the weekend and shoot them to you on Monday if you like.
*Sheridan
-Scott Moore


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 18, 2003)

I'd like to have the 3.0, non-art version.  I think the 3.5 revision notes should be included with the art version.


----------



## Khur (Jul 20, 2003)

Comments?


----------



## Ruavel (Jul 20, 2003)

my current thoughts on the matter:

release the 3.0 non-art version asap...

while we wait for Jeremy to finish the art, convert the existing material to make it 3.5 compliant, and then release a full package of the art & non-art versions together under the new rules structure...

*shrug*

or not, as the case may be...


----------



## Khur (Jul 27, 2003)

I emailed the PDF a while ago. I don't know who actually got it. For the finished "no-art", 3.0 PDF, one can get the version at the d20 Zines download page. I'll be asking to have it posted on EN World after GenCon.


----------



## Ruavel (Jul 28, 2003)

are we restricting the places that we would like the Compendium to be posted at... if not I've got another site (Emerald Night) that may well be interested...


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 28, 2003)

Flipped through the file, very cool.  I'm not volunteering, as my time, atm, is rather limited, but do you want NPCs for the non-NPC'd LgCs?  Maybe not for the current publication, but for some later time?


----------



## Khur (Jul 31, 2003)

This resource is free and may be distributed by whoever cares to do so.  As for characters, I don't mind if someone wants to create characters for the classes, so long as all math is shown for the stats and the versions are 3.0 and 3.5.


----------



## kingpaul (Jul 31, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *the versions are 3.0 and 3.5.*



Ugh, 3.5.  I haven't gone through all the rules yet on what changes have been made.


----------



## Ruavel (Aug 1, 2003)

hey guys...

just thought I'd do a little 'subtle' pimpin' of the Emerald Night resource site that has kindly posted the Compendium of LgC's for us...

Emerald Night 

hey... does this make us famous...?


----------



## Ruavel (Aug 7, 2003)

*LgC Sample Characters*

Hi guys...

just thought I'd give people a brief heads-up...

I've got next week off work (yay!) and will try to get a few sample characters put together while I laze about the house...

as well as convert Wade Braddock and Trinnen val Kemeer to 3.5 ([hint]and any other characters that Khur would like me to work on[/hint])... 

now, in terms of the 3.0/3.5 issue and character creation, which would should be done first...? 

by that I mean do we produce v3.0 characters first to complete the book as it exists now, or v3.5 to conform with the current rule set and then make retrograde conversions to produce a complete book for the v3.0 purists...?


----------



## Khur (Aug 7, 2003)

Please to do 3.0 versions first. Feel free to work on any character that strikes your fancy, besides Ladglasmar and Macarn. You may wish to leave the Divine Weapon as is for now, since it utilizes the Book of Hallowed Might.

Thanks ... I have nuptials in a few days, so I'll be rather, er, busy for a week or so. 

Take it easy, all!


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 7, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *I have nuptials in a few days, so I'll be rather, er, busy for a week or so. *



Congrats on your impending doom....er...wedding.   

Seriously, I wish you well in your marriage.


----------



## Ruavel (Aug 8, 2003)

> _Quoth Khur..._
> *Please to do 3.0 versions first. Feel free to work on any character that strikes your fancy, besides Ladglasmar and Macarn. You may wish to leave the Divine Weapon as is for now, since it utilizes the Book of Hallowed Might.*



 No problems... I think I'll start with trying to create a few new v3.0 sample characters then look at conversions once we have a complete set... 





> _Quoth Khur..._
> *Thanks ... I have nuptials in a few days, so I'll be rather, er, busy for a week or so. *



Best of luck and love for the wedding day, and the rest of your lives together...


----------



## Sheridan (Aug 16, 2003)

*Congratulations !!!*

I'm just getting around to checking the boards again after being on vacation...
*Congratulations Mr. and Mrs. Khur !!!!* 
Have a wonderful life together !
*Sheridan


----------



## Khur (Aug 17, 2003)

Thanks everyone. I'm back in action for a few weeks, then it's off on a real honeymoon (already took a mini-moon).

I must say, married life is good.


----------



## Ruavel (Aug 18, 2003)

> _Quoth Khur..._
> *Thanks everyone. I'm back in action for a few weeks, then it's off on a real honeymoon (already took a mini-moon).
> 
> I must say, married life is good.*



Big Congrats all round...!


----------



## kingpaul (Oct 23, 2003)

*bump*

So, how's wedded life?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 23, 2003)

Congratulations on getting married.  It’s the best thing I ever did. 

Kingpaul, I'm curious and I didn't read all 400 posts nor did I know of the contest in the first place, but I do know that FFG has legendary classes for midnight.  Is this a midnight only project?  If not does it deal with midnight in smaller ways?


----------



## kingpaul (Oct 23, 2003)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Congratulations on getting married.  It’s the best thing I ever did.



I'm torn on that.  When I got married, that was great...but my daughter's birth...alright, so she has daddy wrapped around her finger.    


			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Kingpaul, I'm curious and I didn't read all 400 posts nor did I know of the contest in the first place, but I do know that FFG has legendary classes for midnight.  Is this a midnight only project?  If not does it deal with midnight in smaller ways?



The original contest was when FFG put out _Path of the Sword_, their first book with LgCs in it.  d20 'zines then held one as well.  This book is a culmination of those submissions that the authors have agreed to have included.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 23, 2003)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> I'm torn on that.  When I got married, that was great...but my daughter's birth...alright, so she has daddy wrapped around her finger.



No kids yet so I don't know that feeling but I can understand it. 




			
				kingpaul said:
			
		

> The original contest was when FFG put out _Path of the Sword_, their first book with LgCs in it.  d20 'zines then held one as well.  This book is a culmination of those submissions that the authors have agreed to have included.



Cool, I need to get motivated and have a serious look at their other books and not just absorb everything Midnight.


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## kingpaul (Dec 14, 2003)

Its been a while, so I thought I'd bump this thread.


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## blackshirt5 (Dec 14, 2003)

So, when IS this coming out?  I don't even care about artwork, at this point I just wanna see some STATS!


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## Khur (Dec 15, 2003)

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> So, when IS this coming out?  I don't even care about artwork, at this point I just wanna see some STATS!



Er, if you mean the 3.0 version of the LgC Compendium, it's been available since August. That fact was posted here, and I sent an email to you, blackshirt. Did you miss it? 

If you click this, you'll download it directly.

This clickable link leads to d20 MR's download page, where the Compendium can be found.

My life's been a bit hectic for the past few months. Finishing _Book of Templates: Deluxe Edition_, personal matters, and trying to get into some good jobs have taken most of my free time.

Are we still doing a 3.5 version? If so, who's doing what? I have another volunteer illustrator for it.

I'm sorry to say that, despite their offer to do so, nobody at FFG ever got back to me on the Compendium. However, I sent it to Wil Upchurch and Greg Benage. I have no way of knowing for sure if they got it, of course. Perhaps they had trouble getting it, like blackshirt?


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## blackshirt5 (Dec 15, 2003)

Yeah, I never got the email.


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## Ruavel (Dec 18, 2003)

Khur said:
			
		

> *Are we still doing a 3.5 version? If so, who's doing what? I have another volunteer illustrator for it.*



Well, I'm off work for a while recovering from a hernia repair operation I had last week, so I have some free time to work on the v3.5 Compendium... but I'm not sure I can make it a solo effort, so who's with me...?

(waits for the rousing cheer of support...)


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## Khur (Dec 18, 2003)

Ruavel said:
			
		

> ...so who's with me?



You have my pen.


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## blackshirt5 (Dec 27, 2003)

Because other people need to see this.


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## timespike (May 10, 2008)

I know it's YEARS old, but is the final product from this still available anywhere? I'd be very interested to see it if so...


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