# Primordials and the Dawn War



## FreeXenon (Apr 24, 2011)

Can someone give me the skinny on the Dawn War and the Primordials and/or let me know where in the 4E books is all of the info on it. I would also like a list of the primordials and their spheres of influence so I can see how the primordials control was organized if they were at all.

I am working on a campaign and I need to figure out how somethings figure in to Dawn War.

Thanks all.


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## Mummolus (Apr 24, 2011)

The three 4E books with the most information are:

The Plane Below: Secrets of the Elemental Chaos
The Plane Above: Secrets of the Astral Sea
Manual of the Planes

The primordials haven't really been delineated the way you're looking for. They're scattered around a bit - some are in Monster Manuals (Ogremoch in MM3 for example), some are hinted at or talked about but not explained (Ul-Athra in Dark Sun), and others are referred to vaguely if at all.


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## Mentat55 (Apr 24, 2011)

Here is a list of most of the primordials named in official 4e products:

[4th] Canon Primordial Names?

There are some holes and missing information (Tmesus is the Black Star, Zurtharak is called the Vein in Iron I think, stuff like that), but it is a good start.

EDIT: Here is a list I put together myself.  I forgot I had it.


Mual-tar the Thunder Serpent (“Lords of Chaos: Mual-tar,” Dragon 370)
Erek-Hus the King of Terror: Erek-Hus cleaved the dragon-god Io into two equal halves with his adamantine axe, but was then defeated when the two halves became Bahamut and Tiamat. Source: “Dragon”, Monster Manual.
Bryakus: Defeated by the gods long ago, the spilled blood of Bryakus gave rise to the first hydras. Source: “Hydra”, Monster Manual.
Vezzuvu the Burning Mountain: She is trapped in a field of radiance that keeps her shifted partially out of reality, unable to affect or be affected by her surroundings. Source: Manual of the Planes.
Balcoth the Groaning King: His head was cut off by the gods, but it continues to survive as ash and cinders in a cave somewhere in the Elemental Chaos. Source: Manual of the Planes.
Fire Lord Imix: Primordial served by fire titans.  He also has a temple of beaten gold called the Eternal Flame Pavilion in the City of Brass, and goblin cults in the world. Source: Manual of the Planes.
Shangar the Uncrowned: Primordial served by fire titans. Source: Manual of the Planes.
Solkara the Crushing Wave: This primordial is trapped in a glacier. Imprisoned by Melora, her exarch Sekolah, Kord, and Sehanine. Source: Manual of the Planes and The Plane Below.  
Castanamir the Shattered Khan: Primordial served by storm titans. Source: Manual of the Planes.
Olhydra the Rain Queen: Primordial served by storm titans. Source: Manual of the Planes.
Haemnathuun the Blood Lord: His corpse, a 1,000’ long mass of red stone, floats in the Astral Sea.  The Blood Lord created the abominations known as blood fiends in his own image.  The Keening Delve, near the City of Brass, was once his stronghold.  Haemnathuun was slain by Bahamut, Bane, and Ioun. Source: Manual of the Planes.
Heur-Ket: A blustery primordial of wind, thunder, lightning. Source: “Hestavar: the Bright City,” Dragon 371.
Tabrach-Ti the Queen of Bronze: Tabrach-Ti was slain by Achra (later called Bane), the first primordial to fall in the Dawn War.  Source: “Deities and Demigods: Bane”, Dragon 372.
Piranoth the World Mover: Primordial of earth, fire and frost. Source: Revenge of the Giants.
Tmesus the Black Star: Primordial of dissolution. Source: E3 Prince of Undeath.
Zurtharak the Vein of Iron: A primordial who could burrow through solid stone, Zurtharak was defeated by Moradin (with the help of Kord and Bahamut) wielding the “God Hammer” Guldarak. Source: Hammer of Vengeance (avenger paragon path), Player’s Handbook 2.
Nekal of the Glowing Deep: A primordial. Source: Concordant Leader (warlord paragon path), Martial Power.
Ilmeth: A primordial who regretted the lives he took and was slain by his own followers in the Dawn War. Source: Vestige of Ilmeth (warlock power), Arcane Power.
Shax the Devastator: Dead primordial of the sea. Source: Vestige of Shax (warlock power), Arcane Power.
Atropus the World Born Dead: Possibly an undead primordial. Source: Open Grave.
Syvexrae the Queen of Stone: A primordial whose petrified but still-regenerating body serves as Doresain’s palace in the White Kingdom. Source: Open Grave.
Queen of Chaos: A primordial. Source: Dungeon Master’s Guide.
Nihil: Primordial of unbeing, defeated by Bahamut. Source: The Plane Above.
Gargash: Primordial of the Underdark, mortal enemy of (and defeated by) Torog. Source: Underdark.
Iktha-Lau the Ever Empty: A primordial of utter cold from the darkest voids of existence, said to still roam free. Source: The Plane Below.
Ulctilantilokla: A primordial that only partially exists in reality, birthed from the multiverse’s first dream, also roams free. Source: The Plane Below.
Tziphal the Mountain Builder: Primordial of folding earth, petrification, and volcanoes, is said to have created many of the creatures that possess the power of petrification.  He was defeated in the Dawn War and imprisoned in a barrow in the Elemental Chaos, shifted slightly into the past so the barrow cannot be tampered with. Source: The Plane Below.


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## ourchair (Apr 24, 2011)

Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible

Great resource on the history of the Core setting, though I'm inclined to make my own, just 'cause.


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## malraux (Apr 24, 2011)

FreeXenon said:


> I am working on a campaign and I need to figure out how somethings figure in to Dawn War.




And FWIW, a fair bit of the information that's out there is incomplete and contradictory.  Good or bad it does mean that there's no right, and more importantly no wrong, way to set things up.  If a source disagrees, then that's just the clerics of Pelor spinning tales to pump their deity up.


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## ppaladin123 (Apr 24, 2011)

Mentat55 said:


> Here is a list of most of the primordials named in official 4e products:
> 
> [4th] Canon Primordial Names?
> 
> ...





Before Gargash died he horribly maimed Torog so that his legs are now useless. He also cursed him so that he can never leave the underdark (or equivalent in shadowfell and feywild). This is why Torog became the god of prisons and how the tunnels of the underdark and portals between it and the feydark and shadowdark were carved (as Torog frantically clawed around trying to find an escape).

If I remember correctly, one of Torog's layers contains a building made from Gargash's skull. I faintly recall something about the possibility that Gargash could return to life if something were done to that skull. 

Also there is an awesome picture of the two of them fighting in an old dragon article (anybody remember which?). There are tiny people watching in the foreground to give you an idea of the size of these guys. 


My signature has a list of all the gods, dead gods and astral domains that were ever mentioned. Some of those were slain in fights with primordials.


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## Mirtek (Apr 24, 2011)

Mentat55 said:


> Balcoth the Groaning King: His head was cut off by the gods, but it continues to survive as ash and cinders in a cave somewhere in the Elemental Chaos. Source: Manual of the Planes.
> Fire Lord Imix: Primordial served by fire titans.  He also has a temple of beaten gold called the Eternal Flame Pavilion in the City of Brass, and goblin cults in the world. Source: Manual of the Planes.



Imix stats can also be found in MM3 and the stats of Balcoth (for his head, his headless torso and his full power if they would merge again) is in some Dungeon 178


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## jimmifett (Apr 25, 2011)

Demonomicon also has a decent amount of info relating to the dawn war, and the creation of the devils and demons that slightly preceded/interspersed the war.


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## Riastlin (Apr 25, 2011)

ppaladin123 said:


> Before Gargash died he horribly maimed Torog so that his legs are now useless. He also cursed him so that he can never leave the underdark (or equivalent in shadowfell and feywild). This is why Torog became the god of prisons and how the tunnels of the underdark and portals between it and the feydark and shadowdark were carved (as Torog frantically clawed around trying to find an escape).
> 
> If I remember correctly, one of Torog's layers contains a building made from Gargash's skull. I faintly recall something about the possibility that Gargash could return to life if something were done to that skull.
> 
> ...




Actually, Gargash IS a living torture den of Torog, he just has a throne (I believe) in the skull, the the den consists of all of Gargash, and Torog's wrackspawn are constantly breaking the bones of the den and such to prevent Gargash from reforming. Underdark is a great source for Torog in particular, and Gargash to an extent.

Edit to add:  One of my current campaigns is dealing heavily with the Dawn War.  I basically took what was a relatively blank canvas and made my own creation, which I think is certainly something anyone can do without worrying too much about second guessing, etc.  In my campaign, I made Haemnaethuun the Big Bad of the Primordials and made it so that the gods couldn't destroy him, just imprison his heart behind a series of seals -- which are now breaking.  As the campaign moves further into paragon I anticipate bringing in some primordials (like Piranoth in his diminished state, etc.) and also playing up the Torog/Gargash angle, etc.  One thought is to put the PCs into a position where they need Torog's aid, but he'll only give it if they find a way to break the curse, thereby releasing him from his personal prison and likely giving him even more power.  If it plays out right, it will certainly make for a difficult decision for the PCs.


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## FreeXenon (Apr 25, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback so for. 
Very good stuff.

I have started to look through Manual of the Planes a bit and I found one or two more good links which I will post when I get time.

Feel free to post anything else you think will be helpful or pertinent to understanding the Dawn War...


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## Mentat55 (Apr 25, 2011)

I think _The Plane Above_ and _Monster Manual 3_ have several more pieces of information.  In a way, it is kind of fun tracking down the info, sort of an investigation or mystery.  I don't think I have read anything outright contradictory yet, but since the info pertains to the Dawn War, which reaches back beyond mortal memory, even then it wouldn't really matter.

I have a couple of additions that I will try and post later.


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## TarionzCousin (Apr 26, 2011)

Mentat55 said:


> EDIT: Here is a list I put together myself.  I forgot I had it.



[MENTION=14840]Mentat55[/MENTION], may I ask why you put this fantastic list together? Did you run a campaign in the Planes? Is there a website out there with your game? I am always interested in more planar stuff.


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## FreeXenon (Apr 26, 2011)

I found  2 other links not already mentioned:

Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/276057-gods-dead-gods-dominions-list.html


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## Mentat55 (Apr 26, 2011)

TarionzCousin said:


> [MENTION=14840]Mentat55[/MENTION], may I ask why you put this fantastic list together? Did you run a campaign in the Planes? Is there a website out there with your game? I am always interested in more planar stuff.




I actually compiled this list because I was developing a Primordial Pact warlock -- both for my home game and potentially (at least the powers and such) for submission to Dragon.  I never completed it, but I find the names of the primordials and the little tidbits scattered through the books about them to be very evocative.


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## ppaladin123 (Apr 26, 2011)

FreeXenon said:


> I found  2 other links not already mentioned:
> 
> Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible
> http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/276057-gods-dead-gods-dominions-list.html





Actually I mentioned my list of gods and domains a few posts back.


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## FreeXenon (Apr 26, 2011)

Ahh... well... thanks then... 

I found one then. =)


I am looking through these resources little by little.

a lot of good info..


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## Zeromaru X (Sep 22, 2011)

Woooow... that list is really, really useful. I'm running a campaing in the Dawn War (my pjs are part of the first mortals), so this info will be very useful. Thank you so much!


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## Jack99 (Sep 22, 2011)

Yeah, thanks for all the handy lists and links!


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