# Cleric casting Spells while using Shield and Weapon



## AoR (May 17, 2004)

Hi all,

our group had a little argument about the cleric in our group:

He wants to use an axe and a small shield. So far so good - now he wants to cast a spell, after reading the description of the small shield he is now sure that he can use the shield hand as the free hand for casting the spell...

Unfortunately we couldn´t prove him wrong. Is this true? Can he let go of the shield (with is strapped to his forearm), cast the spell and than grab the shield again to use its AC-bonus? And if this is true, is it a free action to ready the shield or is it a movement action?

After reading the rules again we still aren´t sure about this situation?

Any help will be greatly appreciated, by the way: Our ruleset ist 3.5...


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## 3d6 (May 17, 2004)

> Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.





> Shield, Light, Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.





> Ready or Loose a Shield
> Strapping a shield to your arm to gain its shield bonus to your AC, or unstrapping and dropping a shield so you can use your shield hand for another purpose, requires a move action. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you can ready or loose a shield as a free action combined with a regular move.
> Dropping a carried (but not worn) shield is a free action.



Well, since you can't use a weapon with a hand holding a small shield, its obviously not a "free hand".  Loosing or affixing a shield is a move action, so you can't loose the shield, cast a spell, and re-affix the shield either.


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## Li Shenron (May 17, 2004)

It depends what your DM rules about switching a weapon between hands.

If you allow it as a free action, the cleric could move the axe to the shield's hand (if the shield is a buckler or a light shield, but not if the shield is a heavy shield), cast the spell with the now free hand, and take the axe back in the right hand after casting.

In any case, a hand with a shield strapped on is NOT free at all. If you want to use that hand, you should unstrap/loose the shield (move action), drop it (free action), cast, pick the shield up agains (move action) and strap/ready it back (move action). Better instead drop the weapon (free action), cast and pick the weapon back (move action), all of which can be done in one round.


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## Darklone (May 17, 2004)

The cleric has to hold his holy symbol for casting (usually). Since he can hold it in his shieldhand, I would allow him to cast spells. That's what light shields are for.


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## Li Shenron (May 17, 2004)

Darklone said:
			
		

> The cleric has to hold his holy symbol for casting (usually). Since he can hold it in his shieldhand, I would allow him to cast spells. That's what light shields are for.




That would be a Divine Focus component, not a Somatic component.


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## Thanee (May 17, 2004)

It's not possible to cast spells with a somatic component while using a shield (other than a buckler) and a weapon in both hands.

 I usually allow to hold the weapon in the shield-hand while casting, however.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## shilsen (May 17, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> It's not possible to cast spells with a somatic component while using a shield (other than a buckler) and a weapon in both hands.
> 
> I usually allow to hold the weapon in the shield-hand while casting, however.
> 
> ...



 Do you allow the caster to benefit from the shield bonus to AC in that round, or is that lost?


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## Thanee (May 17, 2004)

Keep shield bonus, but it probably makes more sense otherwise (at least for AoO and ready actions). 

 You could also require a single move action to switch the weapon back and forth (right before and after the casting), so basically casting with weapon and shield requires a full-round action (note, that you could do the same (altho provoking an AoO then), if you drop the weapon and pick it up afterwards, but how silly would that be!? ).

 Bye
 Thanee


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## FreeTheSlaves (May 17, 2004)

He is absolutely right that he can do somatic gestures with his free hand. He doesn't have to use up any actions to do that.

Btw why would you want to prove him wrong? He has sacrificed a valuable point of AC already (and ime every point counts). 

Things are only going to get out of hand once he discovers the power of the glove of storing.


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## Thanee (May 17, 2004)

AFAIK the small shield doesn't leave one hand free (you need to spend a move action to achieve that (loose shield)). A buckler would work, however.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## mikebr99 (May 17, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Keep shield bonus, but it probably makes more sense otherwise (at least for AoO and ready actions).
> 
> You could also require a single move action to switch the weapon back and forth (right before and after the casting), so basically casting with weapon and shield requires a full-round action (note, that you could do the same (altho provoking an AoO then), if you drop the weapon and pick it up afterwards, but how silly would that be!? ).
> 
> ...



Well, that's a little harsh in my books... Free action both ways.

And if you provoke an AoO during all this, you don't get the shield's AC bonus, but would before and after your actual actions.


It's the weight that is the limiting facter... not that fact that there is a strap or handle in the shield hand.



> You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.




Mike​


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## Rel (May 17, 2004)

mikebr99 said:
			
		

> Well, that's a little harsh in my books... Free action both ways.
> 
> And if you provoke an AoO during all this, you don't get the shield's AC bonus, but would before and after your actual actions.




I agree here but I'll also note that if there are any bad guys who are attempting to disrupt the Cleric's spellcasting with readied missile weapons or spells that he's not going to have his shield available when those attacks are incoming.


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## milo (May 17, 2004)

Put a strap on the weapon, when casting the spell let go of the weapon, done casting grab the weapon.  Hold the divine focus in the shield hand.


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## Shin Okada (May 17, 2004)

>Can a spellcaster, arcane or divine, cast a spell requiring somatic or
>material components if he has a weapon in one hand and a buckler in the
>other? A small shield? A large shield?
>
>No in all cases. You must have at least one free hand to use a somatic
>component (see page 151 in the Player’s Handbook). You could drop the
>weapon (or the buckler or shield) as a free action and then cast the
>spell.

It's from 3.0e FAQ. I can't find any direct answer to this topic in 3.5e FAQ.

But if your DM follow that ruling, even a buckler make a hand "not free".


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## FreeTheSlaves (May 18, 2004)

If you decide against the small shield all you'll end up achieving is pushing the cleric (and paladin) into using two handed weapons.

Given the improvements in power attack and animated shields, the cleric will have the last laugh.


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## Thanee (May 18, 2004)

I don't see any reason (except style, of course) to use a small shield, anyways.

Same AC as a buckler, just less useful.

Bye
Thanee


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## Hypersmurf (May 18, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> I don't see any reason (except style, of course) to use a small shield, anyways.
> 
> Same AC as a buckler, just less useful.




It's all about the _bashing_, baby!  

-Hyp.


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## shilsen (May 18, 2004)

FreeTheSlaves said:
			
		

> If you decide against the small shield all you'll end up achieving is pushing the cleric (and paladin) into using two handed weapons.
> 
> Given the improvements in power attack and animated shields, the cleric will have the last laugh.



 In our group we've never allowed spellcasting using a hand with a buckler, leave alone a small shield, and we've had only a single cleric (who was mainly a fighter-type) who used a two-handed weapon.


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## Jhulae (May 18, 2004)

shilsen said:
			
		

> In our group we've never allowed spellcasting using a hand with a buckler, leave alone a small shield, and we've had only a single cleric (who was mainly a fighter-type) who used a two-handed weapon.




Bucklers state that your hand is free, because you can use it to make attacks with held weapons and such.  There's no reason to restrict spellcasting.  I can see not allowing the cleric (or paladin or ranger, or arcane casters who wear bucklers) to gain the AC bonus for the round, but absolutely no reason can be made to disallow casting with a buckler, except as an arbitrary descision.


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## AoR (May 18, 2004)

Thanks for your replies!

Why do we want to prove him wrong: He is the kind of player who uses fluff as rules whenever he wants to. ("Here it states that a cleric is a meele oriented character. I should be able to use a shield and a weapon and still cast spells!")

Well I think we'll just use that 3.0 ruling...   

If he wants to use a two-handed weapon we won´t stop him - but we really dislike the way he bends the rules whenever it suits him.


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## Li Shenron (May 18, 2004)

Jhulae said:
			
		

> Bucklers state that your hand is free, because you can use it to make attacks with held weapons and such.  There's no reason to restrict spellcasting.  I can see not allowing the cleric (or paladin or ranger, or arcane casters who wear bucklers) to gain the AC bonus for the round, but absolutely no reason can be made to disallow casting with a buckler, except as an arbitrary descision.




Except that in no way the buckler states that your hand is free. It just specifies that you can use a bow or crossbow at no penalty, or that you can use an off-hand weapon (or use the hand for a two-handed weapon) with -1 to attacks, but your hand is not free. It is NOT an exception for spellcasting. There is absolutely no reason to alllow casting with a buckler's hand except as an arbitrary decision.


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## Li Shenron (May 18, 2004)

milo said:
			
		

> Put a strap on the weapon, when casting the spell let go of the weapon, done casting grab the weapon.  Hold the divine focus in the shield hand.




That is a suggestion that I have seen many times before. However, I don't think that grabbing the weapon back should be a free action: try strapping an 8lb heavy mace on your right hand with a cord, and grab it back *using your right hand alone*! It seems even harder than picking up the same object from the ground (move action + AoO). At the same time, an 8lb object swinging from your wrist does not exactly leave your hand free for easily gesturing the spell somatic component


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## Darklone (May 18, 2004)

All this tricks are mostly covered by the Quickdraw feat... 

There should be a feat that covers sheathing a weapon fast.


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## Jhulae (May 18, 2004)

Li Shenron said:
			
		

> Except that in no way the buckler states that your hand is free. It just specifies that you can use a bow or crossbow at no penalty, or that you can use an off-hand weapon (or use the hand for a two-handed weapon) with -1 to attacks, but your hand is not free. It is NOT an exception for spellcasting. There is absolutely no reason to alllow casting with a buckler's hand except as an arbitrary decision.




A buckler is a small shield that is strapped to your forearm.  It's not held in the hand at all, which is why you can use it and still shoot a ranged weapon, attack with a two handed weapon, or attack offhand.

Since you're not holding the buckler, if you don't have anything in your hand, your hand is free.  The -1 penalty for melee is because the buckler adds additional weight to the arm.  Now, if you want to say that *that* is why you can't use the hand for spellcasting, then maybe you have an argument, even though that's what arcane spell failure is for.

The point remains that the buckler leaves the hand free, unlike a small shield (which can't be worn and allow the character to fire missile weapons, use a two handed weapon, or attack with a weapon off hand).


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## Thanee (May 18, 2004)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> It's all about the _bashing_, baby!



 Heh. But that just underlines my statement.

 A large shield is much better for bashing. 
 (some might say now, a tower shield is _even_ better... )

 The small shield simply has no place, it's always outperformed by either the large shield or the buckler.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Thanee (May 18, 2004)

What Jhulae said. A buckler shouldn't hinder spellcasting, except by arcane spell failure chance. It leaves the shield-hand completely free.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Thanee (May 18, 2004)

shilsen said:
			
		

> Do you allow the caster to benefit from the shield bonus to AC in that round, or is that lost?



 On second thought and going into a similar route as TWF with a buckler strapped to one's arm, the shield bonus definitely shouldn't count during the entire round.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## shilsen (May 18, 2004)

Jhulae said:
			
		

> A buckler is a small shield that is strapped to your forearm.  It's not held in the hand at all, which is why you can use it and still shoot a ranged weapon, attack with a two handed weapon, or attack offhand.
> 
> Since you're not holding the buckler, if you don't have anything in your hand, your hand is free.  The -1 penalty for melee is because the buckler adds additional weight to the arm.  Now, if you want to say that *that* is why you can't use the hand for spellcasting, then maybe you have an argument, even though that's what arcane spell failure is for.
> 
> The point remains that the buckler leaves the hand free, unlike a small shield (which can't be worn and allow the character to fire missile weapons, use a two handed weapon, or attack with a weapon off hand).



 See FAQ response above. And feel free to disagree, of course 



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> On second thought and going into a similar route as TWF with a buckler strapped to one's arm, the shield bonus definitely shouldn't count during the entire round.




That's how I'd do it. Mainly for balance reasons.


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## shilsen (May 18, 2004)

Jhulae said:
			
		

> A buckler is a small shield that is strapped to your forearm.  It's not held in the hand at all, which is why you can use it and still shoot a ranged weapon, attack with a two handed weapon, or attack offhand.
> 
> Since you're not holding the buckler, if you don't have anything in your hand, your hand is free.  The -1 penalty for melee is because the buckler adds additional weight to the arm.  Now, if you want to say that *that* is why you can't use the hand for spellcasting, then maybe you have an argument, even though that's what arcane spell failure is for.
> 
> The point remains that the buckler leaves the hand free, unlike a small shield (which can't be worn and allow the character to fire missile weapons, use a two handed weapon, or attack with a weapon off hand).



 See FAQ response above. And feel free to disagree, of course 



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> On second thought and going into a similar route as TWF with a buckler strapped to one's arm, the shield bonus definitely shouldn't count during the entire round.




That's how I'd do it. Mainly for balance reasons.


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## schnee (May 19, 2004)

> Except that in no way the buckler states that your hand is free.



If your hand isn't free, how could you possibly fire a bow (which the rules specifically allow)?

/silly response
What, balance the bow on the edge of your knuckles? Pull the string back with your elbows?
/end silly response


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## Shin Okada (May 19, 2004)

schnee said:
			
		

> If your hand isn't free, how could you possibly fire a bow (which the rules specifically allow)?




"Free hand" is a game term. The fact that you can do something with that hand does not prove it to be "free" for spell casting purpose.


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## cidak (May 20, 2004)

FreeTheSlaves said:
			
		

> If you decide against the small shield all you'll end up achieving is pushing the cleric (and paladin) into using two handed weapons.
> 
> Given the improvements in power attack and animated shields, the cleric will have the last laugh.




Especially when combined with Righteous Might.  +8 str, +4 con, +4 natural Amour, DR and up one size category to boot.  And if that is not enough, later on you can cast quickend Divine Power. 

Why bother with a shield in the first place?


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