# Subscription levels dropping



## Morrus (Jul 27, 2010)

Hey folks,

I'm posting this thread to find out what you guys would like from an EN World subscription.  The $3 subscriptions have been running for a while now, but in the last three months we've been seeing cancellations in droves - to the point where we're dipping to unsustainable levels.  We're getting a dozen cancellations per day at the moment, and that's adding up to a lot of money over a few months!

That's OK - I'm not trying to guilt anyone into subscribing.  But the problem with cancellations is that we don't have any feedback mechanism in place.  So if you've cancelled your subscription in the last few months, it would be great if you could let me know why (obviously, if it's personal financial stuff it's none of my business - but if it's because you aren't getting something you expected or wanted, I'm listening).

We've lost hundreds of subscribers in just the last three months (it's odd that they all started happening at the same time).  If any of your folks could offer some insight as to why, I'd be grateful, because PayPal doesn't tell us why!


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## Nebten (Jul 27, 2010)

The ability to use credit cards without having to sign on to Pay Pal to use it. That is my obsticle. It doesn't matter how often I call them or ask them to reset my password, it never works correctly. I can rant on, but that is my complaint. 

Of course, I do have some extra pounds I could send over to yah . . .


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## ExploderWizard (Jul 27, 2010)

Nebten said:


> The ability to use credit cards without having to sign on to Pay Pal to use it. That is my obsticle. It doesn't matter how often I call them or ask them to reset my password, it never works correctly. I can rant on, but that is my complaint.
> 
> Of course, I do have some extra pounds I could send over to yah . . .




That might be a barrier to new subscribers but that wouldn't explain a lot of subscribers already using paypal to suddenly cancel.


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## Kzach (Jul 27, 2010)

When I first dropped, it was because of PayPal. At the time, if there had been any other way to pay, I probably would've kept the sub up. Since then, however, I've had issues come up that have meant I haven't been playing D&D at all so haven't even been checking the site. And now, it's simply because I'm flat broke so until I get some bills paid and some regular work, I have to make sacrifices.

I think a lot of people will have those sorts of ups and downs. I don't maintain a yearly subscription to DDI. I get one month, let it lapse, get another three months 'cause I'm feeling rich and I'm in three games of D&D, then something happens and I'm not playing anymore and I let it lapse for a couple of months. I wouldn't read much into what probably is nothing more than a coincidence of dropping numbers. People's interest and support for things will always wax and wane.

I think also there was probably an initial burst of interest, especially because of the free access to the Burning Sky campaign, which was always going to drop off. How to maintain a critical core number of subscribers, though, is probably going to be a pot-luck thing. I doubt anyone here has the magical solution. It'll probably take constant and ever evolving experimentation. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that even once you hit on something that works, it won't work for long, and you'll probably have to find something new every few months to reinspire people to maintain their sub.

Probably not what you want to hear, but I think it's also the truth.


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## Kzach (Jul 27, 2010)

ExploderWizard said:


> That might be a barrier to new subscribers but that wouldn't explain a lot of subscribers already using paypal to suddenly cancel.




I think you underestimate just how many people loathe PayPal. And for good reason.


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## Chainsaw (Jul 27, 2010)

Seeing that new charge each month kinda forces you to evaluate the "Is it worth it" question repeatedly, even when the charge itself is rather small. It only takes once for someone to think, "Nah, I haven't been on there as much lately, I should cancel this subscription."


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## RangerWickett (Jul 27, 2010)

We're working on a new campaign saga, developed wholly for 4th edition (rather than a conversion). While it would definitely be several months at least before we can roll that out, I wonder how well that would draw subscribers.


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## Alzrius (Jul 27, 2010)

RangerWickett said:


> We're working on a new campaign saga, developed wholly for 4th edition (rather than a conversion). While it would definitely be several months at least before we can roll that out, I wonder how well that would draw subscribers.




*Whispers in a mysterious voice*

If you convert it to Pathfinder, they will come (too).


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## RangerWickett (Jul 27, 2010)

Alzrius said:


> *Whispers in a mysterious voice*
> 
> If you convert it to Pathfinder, they will come (too).




I don't have enough system mastery of Pathfinder to feel comfortable writing for it, though I'm sure Russ would be open to discussing a conversion once we're closer to actual release.


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## ExploderWizard (Jul 27, 2010)

Dp.


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## Hand of Evil (Jul 27, 2010)

Be interested to know if they are also leaving the site and where they are going?


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## Lanefan (Jul 27, 2010)

Nebten said:


> The ability to use credit cards without having to sign on to Pay Pal to use it.



This.

Find an alternative to using PayPal (or any other similar middleman) and I'll subscribe in a heartbeat.

Another idea might be to have it such that the ENWorld booth at GenCon can collect cash subscription payments (or plain ol' donations) in person.

Lan-"or I can send cash"-efan


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## Alan Shutko (Jul 27, 2010)

There was the month of June which had no subscriber content.  I didn't cancel, but I wondered if the content had ended.  July has had a good amount of content and isn't over yet, making up for it.

It might be a good idea to plan on spreading things out more.


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## JoeGKushner (Jul 27, 2010)

Looks like between the end of May and the start of July there was no new subscribers content.

People want something other than the ability to post to a forum for their money. If they don't think that they'll be getting the goods as they did when they first started... perhaps things wind down.

En World needs more original content in that section too. The Kobold bits aren't that useful for example, to someone who subscribes to that fine periodical.


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## kaomera (Jul 27, 2010)

My existing subscription expires in August. At this point I won't be re-subscribing. If I keep using the site I will most likely donate the $3 (at least) each month, but a recurring subscription is a deal-breaker for me.

And that's if I keep using the site. Honestly all this new stuff just frustrates me. I come here for the message board. I've looked at the subscriber content, but none of it is really anything I'd ever have a use for. And the do-dads all over (how long are we going to have an ad for twitter up there?) just make the message board less fun, for me. If there was (or is, maybe I'm just missing something) a way to turn a lot of the extra bits and stuff off, that would be an incentive.


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## pawsplay (Jul 27, 2010)

I remain a supporter because I want the community to continue. However, I don't play 4e, which makes a lot of the free content less fascinating. Also, I find the social networking stuff a real turn-off. I wonder if some of the unsubscribers feel similarly. Just some thoughts.

The main reason I am here as opposed to, say, Paizo.com is because of the full messageboard functionality and the community of game system tinkerers. There are a lot more PAthfinder players on paizo.com and more GURPS players on sjgames.com, for instance, but posting on an official forum is not and just cannot be the same. If ENWorld went under, I would start looking for the next best thing, whether it's a new board on Yuku or a mass migration to someone's other board. 

I would consider my subscription justified each month if the forums were made very freelancer/semi-pro friendly. A ton of industry people post here, and the extent to which ENWorld facilitates interactions between the pros and the wannabes, it offers something exceptional.


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## Mouseferatu (Jul 27, 2010)

In my case, it's purely financial. (I didn't cancel, exactly, but I didn't re-up when my previous yearly subscription ran out.) I intend to re-up in the future, when things steady, but right now, the idea of putting any recurring charge on my card, no matter how small, makes me nervous.

Which leads me to point two... I understand the reasons you went "monthly only," I really do. But I'm still far more comfortable paying one lump sum for a year and being done with it. It's not a deal-breaker for me, but I can see how it would be for some people.

But again, that's more a "Why aren't people subscribing?" issue than a "Why are they canceling?" issue. And ultimately, I'm not sure what the answer is.


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## Herremann the Wise (Jul 27, 2010)

Hi Russel,

I'm sorry to hear of subscription drop offs. I wonder how many people are in the same boat as me:

- I lov*ed* this site!
- Now I don't visit it as much sometimes for quite long inactive periods.
- I will maintain my subscription more out of respect for the site, those who run it, those who used to be here (and a few who still are), and what it has given me over the years than for the download content provided.
- In fact I don't think I have downloaded a single thing with my subscription.
- 4e has slowly ground my interest in "D&D" to a minimal amount. I most likely spend more time on the paizo boards than here (specifically in their adventure path sections: Age of Worms, Rise of the Runelords, Kingmaker...) as that has been my specific interest in terms of my own DMing.
- I still play in a 4e campaign twice a month and maintain a DDI account.
- My interest in "General" RPG discussion has waned co-inciding with the new edition. I don't particularly like 4e, half my gaming group refuse to play it and thus my enthusiasm for discussing more general matters has fallen to zero unless it is an opportunity for me to have a gripe about my situation. In effect, I feel like I have very little in common with many of the new posters on this site, thus I don't visit as much, thus EN World is becoming less and less relevant to my gaming habits and interests.
- If I was in a position where I had to cut back on my spending, or worry about paypal or credit card stuff, then pulling my subscription would enter my head. If I had not been on or supported this site for so long, then the decision might be easier. If I did not have as much respect for the moderators, owners that EN World has, or the fellowship that it had, then again, it would be an easier decision. If the designers of D&D further smash it into irrelevance for me, then that too would make the decision easier.
- Essentially I have no interest in subscriber content, and my continued subscription to EN World will not be affected by what content is there.
- I plan to keep my subscription until the site is closed (something which I don't think will ever happen).

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise


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## Festivus (Jul 27, 2010)

I think I am in the same boat as Ari.  I have been enduring an 8% pay cut at work, and we had just bought our house a year before... so almost everything that was luxury went out of the budget.  Thankfully I get most of my D&D books for free, but that involves a lot of extra work on my part at the FLGS to drum up business for them.

Pay wise, I would prefer a lump sum subscription like you can get with DDI, with discounts for longer term subscriptions.  e.g. $3 a month, or $30 for a year, or $45 for two years, etc... whatever it is but monthly is almost never an option I go for.  I bought DDI when it was cheap for as many years as they would let me, and I usually do the same with paper magazines that I really like.


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## jaerdaph (Jul 27, 2010)

The stagnant economy probably has a lot to do with it. Unfortunately, as times get tight, jobs are lost and pay raises don't keep up with inflation, this is the kind of expense that gets cut out of the budget first.


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## Kzach (Jul 27, 2010)

Festivus said:


> Pay wise, I would prefer a lump sum subscription like you can get with DDI, with discounts for longer term subscriptions.  e.g. $3 a month, or $30 for a year, or $45 for two years, etc... whatever it is but monthly is almost never an option I go for.  I bought DDI when it was cheap for as many years as they would let me, and I usually do the same with paper magazines that I really like.




I didn't even realise they'd stopped allowing longer subs. Yeah, that's a deal-breaker for a lot of people. If I can afford it, I always go for the longer, cheaper option.

Was there any reason to drop the other sub options? Seems like a no-brainer to re-instate that.


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## Sylrae (Jul 27, 2010)

Personally, I hang out almost exclusively in the Pathfinder/Legacy Forums.

What types of content are in the subscription? Only thing I knew you got was search functionality (something I can mimic pretty well with google). I wasn't sure exactly why people paid monthly for a search box for the longest time, when you can search google with the site: keyword

If there was content coming out that I could use, and I could pay for it in advance instead of monthly as described above, I'd sign up. I just bought a 1 year subscription to KQ 2 weeks ago.

4e content isn't any good to me though. Give me things I can use with my Pathfinder with minimal converting, stuff I can use with the Storyteller/Storytelling system (not going to happen but it would interest me), and you'll get the subscription from me.

Again though, not with a pay monthly schedule.

I'd do a lump sum for a year, but I'm not sure I'd sign up for anything with recurring payments. Give me a year at a time that will expire and won't bill me again, and I'll sign up for it, and likely renew it when it's done.


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## Argyle King (Jul 27, 2010)

As someone who is not a subscriber, I often find myself unsure of what benefits I would get from paying the monthly fee.


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## Hand of Evil (Jul 27, 2010)

Well, I am a fanboy of the site and a supporter.  Reasons I support the site:

Grandmother's rule - the site is civil and clean.  This may not sound like a lot but some sites just wear me out with the amount of unrest that takes place in a post.  
The Spice of Life - lots of different content and different voices discussing the hobby. 
ENnies - What I see as the major awards of our hobby, companies have been made by the award and a lot of products sold.  I see the support of the site as a support of the awards.     
Support the Industry - I see the support of this site as supporting the industry and hobby.  This is a independent site, company sites are marketing sites for fanboys, if I like the game, yes I will go there but when that game disappears from the market, so does the site.  
COMMUNITY - sort of says it all, we are united in our hobby.  I support this site because of each and everyone of you, your post, your reviews, your maps, your games, your links, advice and so much more...


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## Khairn (Jul 27, 2010)

Even though the cost is very low, when finances are tight, some discretionary items have to take a hit.  I have no issues with Paypal, but having multiple payment options would probably help some members.



RangerWickett said:


> We're working on a new campaign saga, developed wholly for 4th edition (rather than a conversion). While it would definitely be several months at least before we can roll that out, I wonder how well that would draw subscribers.




I'd probably re-sub for that as I find 4E's published settings (especially WotC's) to be quite underwhelming.  Can you share anything with us to help start the buzz?


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## DragonLancer (Jul 27, 2010)

After being a way from ENW for about 18 months (far far too much 4E stuff at the time) I came back last week to check out what Pathfinder material was being discussed. Pleasently surprised to see 4E having it's own corner of the forums and more general gaming discussed so I subscribed again (monthly only because I can't afford more). I don't care about the benefits (it's mostly 4E stuff) I did it to help support the best gaming forums on the net.

People probably need something more to keep them subscribing. Maybe something like the next time the site puts up an adventure path it's for Pathfinder/3.5 rather than 4E. Do something for people who play games other than 4th ed. It's the current official rules but not everyone plays it.


On a teritary note, what's wrong with Paypal? I've never had an issue with them (maybe I'm just lucky) and wish more sites accepted them.


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## Wayside (Jul 27, 2010)

Festivus said:


> I think I am in the same boat as Ari.  I have been enduring an 8% pay cut at work, and we had just bought our house a year before... so almost everything that was luxury went out of the budget.



Ain't working for the state grand?


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## SethDrebitko (Jul 27, 2010)

I think what holds me back is that as d20 marches forward so does enworld. For example: when 3.5 was out I would have nearly jumped on the subscription. I don't like pathfinder or 4th ed; I am more into variants like m20 and mutants and masterminds.

Heck I might even be interested to see what the enworld folks would do with the srd.

Don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with choosing to lean towards editions, but this is a very big line in the sand time as far as editions go.


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## DrunkonDuty (Jul 27, 2010)

Well I can't say why people are cancelling subscriptions. 

I know that I only subscribe because I like the forums. I find many of the discussioins to be very interesting and helpful for my gaming. ANd so I contribute to the site that contributes to my game. (Ain't that warm and fuzzy?)

I've barely glanced at the parts of the site that aren't the forums.


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## Stoat (Jul 27, 2010)

I don't subscribe because ENWorld, particularly the general forum, is less and less interesting to me.

The number of new threads in general seems to have decreased.  Umbran closed the "What could WotC do to woo back disenchanted fans" thread 2 days ago, and it's still on the main page.  A year ago, it would have dropped down to page two in a few hours.   

Worse, IMO, the quality of the conversation has declined.  The same half-dozen or so topics (sandboxing v. railroading, WotC's pdf/piracy policies, 4.5 and rumors of 4.5, fudging, verisimilitude and the loss thereof, WotC's treatment of D&D canon, etc. etc.) pop up again and again.  Each time one of these topics shows up it spawns a gigantic 20+ page thread where the same dozen or so posters make the same points they've raised in a hundred previous 20+ page threads.  Nobody's adding anything to the discussion.  Nobody says anything new.  The only interesting thing is to see who blows their stack and gets modded first. 

I still lurk around.  I post from time to time.  I even follow the occasional 20+ page megathread out of morbid curiousity.  But I'm less interested, less informed and less entertained by ENWorld than I ever have been, and for that reason I haven't subscribed.


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## UngainlyTitan (Jul 27, 2010)

DrunkonDuty said:


> Well I can't say why people are cancelling subscriptions.
> 
> I know that I only subscribe because I like the forums. I find many of the discussioins to be very interesting and helpful for my gaming. ANd so I contribute to the site that contributes to my game. (Ain't that warm and fuzzy?)
> 
> I've barely glanced at the parts of the site that aren't the forums.



Same here.

That said I do wonder at the objections to Paypal but if people object then Morrus should really offer other means of subscribing. There should be as few as possible obstacles in the way of punters parting with their cash.


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## Raven Crowking (Jul 27, 2010)

Credit card requirements forced me to cancel.

I thought I could just use a temp (Vanilla MasterCard) card picked up for that purpose, but here in Canada at least there are too many strings attached.  By strings I mean extra fees, lost money in the case of expiry, and inability to "reload" money on the card unless you purchase a card with even larger extra fees.

I would be happy to support EN World; I cannot afford to support MasterCard.


RC


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## scruffygrognard (Jul 27, 2010)

I didn't subscribe because I haven't adopted _4th edition_ or _Pathfinder _(I'm still playing _3.5_ and _Castles & Crusades_) and don't find the site as useful/informative/interesting as I used to.

Sadly, with the D&D market as fractured as it is, it's tough to cater to the D&D community nowadays.


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## Falstaff (Jul 27, 2010)

I canceled my subscription because the subscribers' content section just doesn't offer anything for the type of D&D I play: mainly AD&D First Edition and Labyrinth Lord. Now if subscribers were offered some cool articles for First Edition gaming, I'd be subscribing again in a heart beat!


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## the Jester (Jul 27, 2010)

Well, although I've re-upped my sub since, for a couple of months I let it lapse over the Paypal thing.

Russ, I've seen the Paypal complaint several times in this thread already; if even 10% of your lost subs are because of Paypal, it seems worth it to me to look into another way to take payments. I know that in the past you've indicated that it simply isn't practical, but maybe you could add a credit card sub option through the ENWorld store or something. Alternatively, if there IS a way to pay without going through Paypal, nobody seems to know about it.


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## Drkfathr1 (Jul 27, 2010)

I'm not a subscriber, but I can echo some of the thoughts already expressed, to explain why I'm not, and possibly help shed some light on what others might be feeling as well. 

* I just don't subscribe to online services. Especially message boards. 
* The quality of posting on Enworld has declined dramatically in the past few years. Blame that on edition wars if you want, but the overall tone of the site and so many of the threads here now are bitter, spiteful, and combative, no matter what the topic. 
* I don't play 4E. The support and focus on 4E isn't something I'm going to pay money for. I understand its the current "official" edition, but its not my game of choice. 
* Enworld has been very pro-WOTC, which is fine, and perfectly reasonable, but sometimes it veers into the territory of DRINK THE KOOL-AID! Or, sometimes seems very heavy-handed in disallowing any criticisms of WoTC, even legitimate ones. 
* I know Enworld offers a lot to the community, and it has been an excellent resource in the past for the overall gaming community, a truly top-notch site. However, I just don't feel comfortable forking over a monthly payment to a site that's changed so much, so a guy can make a living off of what is essentially just a fan-site.


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## ShinHakkaider (Jul 27, 2010)

Drkfathr1 said:


> I'm not a subscriber, but I can echo some of the thoughts already expressed, to explain why I'm not, and possibly help shed some light on what others might be feeling as well.
> 
> * I just don't subscribe to online services. Especially message boards.
> * The quality of posting on Enworld has declined dramatically in the past few years. Blame that on edition wars if you want, but the overall tone of the site and so many of the threads here now are bitter, spiteful, and combative, no matter what the topic.
> ...




+1 

When ENWorld and I shared an edition this place was an AWESOME resource. I got into OGL games because tof the reviews and reccomendations from people here. I would have never even though to look at games like M&M or Spycraft or companies like Malhavoc, Green Ronin, FFG or AEG. But now? while it technically may not be 4E only it definitely feels like a 4E shop. And that pretty much prohibits me from supporting the site. $3 a month isn't a big deal to me right now. I'm basically giving Paizo $20 month for AP's and more whenever they have Hardcover coming out. But I can't bring myself to support this site because of threads like the "what can WOTC done to bring people back" thread and mostly the folks who took a seemingly productive thread and crapped all over it. 

I still check here obviously, but nowadays I'm mostly over at Paizo and other Pathfinder and OGL friendly sites.


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## OnlineDM (Jul 27, 2010)

Well, I can only speak as someone who recently started subscribing, but that might still be enlightening.

I'm very new to D&D, and I've found the EN World forums to be a fantastic resource to get plugged into the larger D&D community.  I like to read about challenges that other players and DMs face and see how they overcome them.  I like the community aspect.  I ended up finding my party for an online game here on an EN World forum thread.

Since I was getting so much use out of EN World, I thought that the right thing to do was to sign up to support the community.  I'll admit that the ability to actually have a link to my blog in my signature was a factor as well, and I wanted access to the search function (though I don't think I've used it yet).  I didn't care at all about the subscriber content - I just wanted to do the right thing and support a site that was very useful to me.

I've since downloaded the first War of the Burning Sky adventure, and it's been pretty good.  I won't be running it exactly as written, but there are plenty of hooks that I can use.

I'll echo the comments of others who said that they don't like the recurring monthly fee and would be happier with an annual subscription option (I think $30 per year is very fair).  That was a turn-off, but I bit the bullet and subscribed anyway.

To sum up, I'm probably an easy mark for EN World since I play D&D Fourth Edition, I have some disposable income to put toward gaming, and I can ultimately stomach the recurring monthly fee.  If any of those things changed, I could see myself canceling my subscription.


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## Morrus (Jul 27, 2010)

Thanks for the input, guys.

Just to reiterate - while other information is certainly valuable, what I'm really digging for here is the reasons for_ cancellation_ of an existing subscription (a fairly specific question, I admit).  I'm pretty happy with the rate of sign-ups; it's just the recent spate of actual cancellations which has caught my eye.


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## jaerdaph (Jul 27, 2010)

Drkfathr1 said:


> The quality of posting on Enworld has declined dramatically in the past few years. Blame that on edition wars if you want, but the overall tone of the site and so many of the threads here now are bitter, spiteful, and combative, no matter what the topic.






Stoat said:


> ...where *the same dozen or so posters* make the same points they've raised in a hundred previous 20+ page threads...




Confession time. 

I never used my Ignore List before ever until this year. I added about a dozen people to it, and the quality of the conversations and my enjoyment of EN World improved greatly almost instantly. 

Seriously, there are only about a dozen people who constantly say the same ridiculous things over and over and stir up trouble, and they don't all come from one "side" or "camp". I'm not going to name names, but I think most people know who the greatest offenders are, and if everyone around here made the decision to Ignore the same people (and somehow I doubt there would be any overlap in our Ignore Lists) and refused to "feed the trolls", our community would continue to improve. The hardest part for me was putting several people on my Ignore list that otherwise enjoy the same games I do, but it was necessary to maintain my sanity. 

At the end of the day, we're talking about a game. It's not politics, or religion or human rights or what have you. 

It's just a game.


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## nedjer (Jul 27, 2010)

Drkfathr1 said:


> I'm not a subscriber, but I can echo some of the thoughts already expressed, to explain why I'm not, and possibly help shed some light on what others might be feeling as well.
> 
> * I just don't subscribe to online services. Especially message boards.
> * The quality of posting on Enworld has declined dramatically in the past few years. Blame that on edition wars if you want, but the overall tone of the site and so many of the threads here now are bitter, spiteful, and combative, no matter what the topic.
> ...




I'll pick up on that one, as it's tricky for the owner/ Mods to answer some of those:

* fair enough but it's maybe a bit rich to have a dig at them if you're not willing to chip in
* the E wars are over. There's not a single E war thread on the front page today and there's little of it in general. As for bitter, spiteful and combative . . . posts get a bit robust at times but there almost always a Mod around to make the likes of me shut up 
* I don't play D&D at all right now, but there are many topics which can feed into or inform any RPG player/ GM regardless of system.
* I've made a stack of 'observations' about where WotC are going/ possibly going wrong and haven't had to pull any daggers out of my back. There is a loyalty to the D&D brand, which sometimes seems curiously at odds with what poster's want from their games. However, at no stage has or does the forum 'market' WotC to visitors.
* you've already said you won't pay, are you having 2nd thoughts? Either way, if someone makes a good job of running a 'fan' site and puts loads of effort into helping people enjoy a game - why shouldn't they earn an income? Seems a lot more useful and constructive than running a porn site or a gambling den.

So, please get yourself back in here and make yopur mind up about subscriptions on the basis of the 'here and now'


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## El Mahdi (Jul 27, 2010)

Drkfathr1 said:


> ...* Enworld has been very pro-WOTC, which is fine, and perfectly reasonable, but sometimes it veers into the territory of DRINK THE KOOL-AID! Or, sometimes seems very heavy-handed in disallowing any criticisms of WoTC, even legitimate ones...




Nah, just not seeing it.

I have been very openly critical of WotC and expressed my opinions quite strongly in a lot of posts and threads, and I have never been reprimanded for anything I've said about them...not once, heavy-handed or otherwise.

I've also never seen anything of ENWorld itself (specifically policies, moderation, etc.) that's either pro- or anti-WotC.

And although not scientific, most polls here seem to show a pretty even split between pro-4E members and fans of earlier editions/other games.

Perhaps for those who feel they've experienced this heavy-handedness, it was less about _what_ they were saying, and more about _how_ they were saying it?

____________________________________________________________________________


As concerns the OP, it does sound like PayPal is a contributing factor. It hasn't been a problem for me, but it definitely appears to be so for quite a few people.

As for me, I'll never give up my subscription. But, there are some recent changes to the site that have lowered my enjoyment of it somewhat. Most of them are things that have been talked about in Meta. Like the buttons disappearing from the top. (We were told it was temporary while some things were fixed or experimented with, but now it seems to have somehow become permanent - at least I haven't seen any communications about them coming back). I know that I don't like having to go to my User Control Panel in order to do a search, especially as I always need to spend a few minutes searching for it when I want to use it now. (It used to be an easy little button right at the top of the page. - correction: I see the search button is there, but some of the others aren't - I don't like having to go to the dropdown to find a forum) There are also display problems for some (having to scroll all the way to the left, etc.), that may also be contributing. Maybe some feel they don't want to pay for a site that is no longer quite as easy to use.

Also, maybe bringing back sales of older edition pdf's...oh wait, that's that other online RPG subscription service...sorry.

I do have to say though, I really dig some of the new features...like statuses, the XP system (and being able to give increased XP amounts as a subscriber), and of course the downloads. There's been a lot of nice work done on the site, but the site does still feel a little "_under construction_" yet (example: me and a few others having "Community Supporter" displayed twice...). Maybe that's discouraging some from getting or keeping a subscription.


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## TheYeti1775 (Jul 27, 2010)

Festivus said:


> I think I am in the same boat as Ari.  I have been enduring an 8% pay cut at work, and we had just bought our house a year before... so almost everything that was luxury went out of the budget.  Thankfully I get most of my D&D books for free, but that involves a lot of extra work on my part at the FLGS to drum up business for them.
> 
> Pay wise, I would prefer a lump sum subscription like you can get with DDI, with discounts for longer term subscriptions.  e.g. $3 a month, or $30 for a year, or $45 for two years, etc... whatever it is but monthly is almost never an option I go for.  I bought DDI when it was cheap for as many years as they would let me, and I usually do the same with paper magazines that I really like.



I believe at the time of switch to a subscriptions service, Morrus said he couldn't depend on the annual model as a source of income.


But as far as a customer drop off.
You have noticed it in the last 3 months.
Have there been major announcements in the last 3 months?

*How many of them were annual subscirbers whose subscriptions ran out and didn't move on to the new model of subscribing?*

*Could it be pricing? *
The only online websites I subscribe to our related to my Jeep hobby.  They cost me about 40 bucks a year for two different sites.  EnWorld pricing is what $36/yr (right?).

In that $40/yr I get discounts from various vendors.  Some are as simple as a free shipping to as good as 20% off with one vendor.  Those are huge incentives for me when a part could weigh in easily at a few hundred pounds or the 20% could pay my fee for both sites and than some.
That and the techinical advice I can get on those sites saves me untold hundreds of mechanic dollars.

You have to keep that in mind and with your audience.
We are a picky crowd when it comes catering to our wants/needs/desires.  The What Could WotC thread should prove that easily.

*What do I get for my $36 here?*
Sig Space? I don't change my sig that often to worry about it.  Heck on most sites unless I have a fairly cool quote in it, it simple has "Yeti".
War of the Burning Sky 4e and 3.5e versions.  I could buy it seperately.
What else?
The ability to search?  Google has handled that fine for me for years.
Cool Community Supporter Title/Avatar.  Not really a big deal to me.  I could care less if folks knew I supported or not.
Ability to give more Exp? Again not a big deal though I do love giving it when appropriate, more fustrated with the "Can't Give Again Till Ya Spread It Around" portion of that.

I'm sure there are other benefits to subscribing, the problem is if I as a long term user of EnWorld doesn't know them off the top of my head, do you expect newer folks to know?

Than you have to compare it to your nearest competitor in this realm.  
And that is actual WotC itself.
Think about it, both of you have grand user bases, both have subscription services.
Now yours is a third of the price.
But with theirs, you are getting the various Builders + all errata included into it.  Your getting Dragon/Dungeon (how much were they when in print? 36/yr?)
And heck if they ever get the VTT up and running, you will be contending with that as well.

If I could only pick one, I would most likely go with the DDI WotC has even though I like EnWorld  a heck of a lot more.  Reason being its providing me with tools and stuff I will use regularly.

Your business model is good.  It's just you have moved from the very things that brought people like me into the fold in the first place.
What first brought me to EnWorld was trying to find other gamers when I moved cities (Atlanta to DC).  Other things I used heavily here were the Marketplace to find older games I was missing or minis I wanted because I didn't like randoms.
My last two gaming groups I found at Pen & Paper vice here. 
My last 4 or 5 purchases of 2nd hand gaming material came from Ebay or Craigslist.

An earlier poster mentioned the locked thread still being on page one.  He is right though, just a few years ago that would have been buried about 5 pages back by now.
Your activity levels are down when people just glance at the page.  I pop on once or twice a day during the work week and just glance at the main headlines if I'm not seeing a variety or something interesting than I'm moving on to the NEXT WEBSITE.

The main problem is without offering something originial and useful EnWorld will continue to see a decline in subscribers till you get to the static number that will always support EnWorld just because it's Enworld.  You will have small surges here and there where new people come into play, but they will fall by the wayside as well.

With the economy the way it is nowadays, you will be hard pressed to push forward.  I think you need to look at your past and what made the site great.
WotC interaction
Paizo interaction
3rd Party Vendor/Publisher/Author interaction
One of the best places to find a game
One of the best places to search (outside of ebay) for 2nd hand gaming materials.
Site Activity

But I do applaud you for asking the quesiton, not every business owner is willing to hear the frank feedback of his clientele.


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## Hjorimir (Jul 27, 2010)

Well, for what it’s worth, I’ve often thought about subscribing, but in the end I don’t feel that I’m D&D centric enough to justify it. 

My gut tells me (and it’s a pretty massive gut), that there is something of a RPG renaissance going on right now outside of D&D and its derivatives. Shadowrun seems to be clawing its way out of the grave, FATE is on the rise, ORE, BASH!, Eclipse Phase, and so on.

If you look at rpg.net, you’ll see the forums are extremely active. People are very engaged. My worry for ENWorld, which I have loved over the years, is that it is seen as only a D&D site. It is something of an “all of your eggs in one basket” problem you’re facing.

I also think that the edition wars hurt the site more than you may realize. There was just too much system hate going on here. I read RPG message boards because I love the hobby and I want to see new ideas and share my own, not because I want to argue about which is the best edition.


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## TheYeti1775 (Jul 27, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Thanks for the input, guys.
> 
> Just to reiterate - while other information is certainly valuable, what I'm really digging for here is the reasons for_ cancellation_ of an existing subscription (a fairly specific question, I admit).  I'm pretty happy with the rate of sign-ups; it's just the recent spate of actual cancellations which has caught my eye.




Another question to ask about that, which will make you research is how many of those cards simply expired?
End of Quarter was June, that and most credit cards if you look at them expire June to November as those most cc companies tend to have thier fiscal year end than.

Also most resident moves happen in May-July timeframes due to colleges and schools letting out.  That changes the billing address thereby preventing a monthly transaction from going through as the address hasn't been updated.

Have you compared the cancellation list to the last activity of the person?

You could also try sending an email/note to each cancellation to garner their exact feedback.


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## ValhallaGH (Jul 27, 2010)

For some reason I'd ended up with two subscriptions.  One just had to go.


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## Deset Gled (Jul 27, 2010)

A question about a related topic: how has revenue been from the sidebar ads?  I don't subscribe, but I do allow ENWorlds ads to be an exception to my filter, and I click on them every once in a while.


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## Umbran (Jul 27, 2010)

Hjorimir said:


> I also think that the edition wars hurt the site more than you may realize.




Have no fear of that.  If there is one thing Morrus does understand, it is how much that antagonism hurt the community and the site.


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## Morrus (Jul 27, 2010)

TheYeti1775 said:


> An earlier poster mentioned the locked thread still being on page one. He is right though, just a few years ago that would have been buried about 5 pages back by now.




This is an optical illusion; traffic is doing fine (and, in fact, has been increasing over the last three months).  

What you're seeing is the reorganization of the forums - more traffic is in other forums rather than General RPG Discussion.  Many of those forums didn't even exist a couple of years ago.

But traffic's fine, and increasing.  It's just organized a little differently, which I guess can be odd to someone used to mainly looking at General RPG Discussion.


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## gamerprinter (Jul 27, 2010)

*Subscriptions aren't a good business model*

After doing some research, watching EnWorld's version, I had been considering offering a subscription based publication platform for my creations - I've come to the conclusion that while a subscription based publication platform has some merits, many other reasons make it not so good.

As mentioned, when every month you can opt out of a subscription, each considers the perceived value over the past months and asks oneself is it worth it to continue? Subscriptions that require quarterly, semi-annual or annual subscriptions, while not as enticing as monthly ones to get involved, keeping subscriptions are too easily lost when I get the choice each month to continue or opt out. If you forget to opt out when you wanted to, you feel kind of screwed by the subscription system - that other marketing platforms don't have. Too easily gained, too easily lost, that I think is the main problem with a monthly subscription system.

I'm looking to pursue a different business model, definitely not subscription based. More like a free site with publications for sale, along with free bonus material for purchasers - but basically the free site model is best, I think.

GP


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## renau1g (Jul 27, 2010)

Morrus said:


> But traffic's fine, and increasing.  It's just organized a little differently, which I guess can be odd to someone used to mainly looking at General RPG Discussion.





Enworld.org Site Info

Very cool site. I was amazed that India is the 2nd largest country by web traffic here.


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## Stereofm (Jul 27, 2010)

I really rather the annual amount rather than an annoying monthly fee.

That said, if people would give me xps... all these years of membership, and only level 2 ????

*Admin here. While I understand and sympathize, we utterly detest xp whoring. It's the one thing we'll give negative xp for to balance it out, because we really don't want to see it. Don't do it, please. Shoot me a PM with any questions. ~ PCat*


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## Morrus (Jul 27, 2010)

renau1g said:


> Enworld.org Site Info
> 
> Very cool site. I was amazed that India is the 2nd largest country by web traffic here.




Alexa's not very accurate at all. It relies on people using the Alexa toolbar. The number of people on EN World who use it is so low that I have been able to make the Alexa's opinion of traffic here go up and down by as much as 50% simply by installing and uninstalling the toolbar on my own browser. Indeed, I can double pageviews and the like instantly by simply reducing the number of posts per page (that's the usual reason a website owner will have a low number of threads/page, posts/page and the like - means people have to look at more pages for the same content).

What that probably means is that there are three people in India who use EN World and have the Alexa toolbar. They then use that as a very innacurate sample to try to predict the actual traffic.

Google Analytics is where it's at! Plus vBulletin's own records of threads and posts made, people online, and the like.

Although this phrase on Alexa is amusing: "Compared with internet averages, its users are disproportionately low-income, and they are disproportionately childless men under the age of 45 who have attended college and browse from school and home. "

Alexa tells you a lot more about who uses Alexa toolbars than it tells you about a website.


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## Shazman (Jul 27, 2010)

I don't subscribe because all of the "content" is 4E and pdf's.  I can't afford to blow through ink cartridges to print out the adventures, and I don't drag my laptop to gaming sessions, so pdf adventures are useless to me.   I also am not too pleased as how this site has changed in the past few years.  Around 4E's release, the moderation was clearly pro-4E/pro-WotC (probably because of all the 4E advertisements on the site).  It was ridiculous how one sided the moderation was.  Saying anything bad about 4E or WotC, even if it was a legitimate complaint was likely to get the thread closed or a temporary ban.  It's slightly better now, but anytime an interesting thread comes up like the recent "What can WotC do to bring back the diesenchated" it gets clogged up with 4E/WotC fanboys trying to shout down people with legitimate critisims of 4E and WotC, and then eventually gets locked.  This place ins't as much fun as it used to be.


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## renau1g (Jul 27, 2010)

Just for a correction here Shazman, I searched that thread (via that handy Search function... *plug, plug*) for your posts. Not a one was relating to what WotC could do to bring back the disenchanted, but rather bashing the company or those that played it.

"That pretty much sums up WotC's way of doing things. They definitely believe in a scorched earth, fire the audience mentality. Maybe they will fire too many and learn their lesson."


*Mod Edit*: Closed threads are closed for good reason.  We ask you to NOT drag their issues around into other threads.  This does nothing to answer Morrus' question, so let us not go down this line of discussion.  Thanks, all.


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## Vyvyan Basterd (Jul 27, 2010)

Shazman said:


> Saying anything bad about 4E or WotC, even if it was a legitimate complaint was likely to get the thread closed or a temporary ban.  Anytime an interesting thread comes up it gets clogged up with 4E/WotC fanboys trying to shout down people with legitimate critisims of 4E and WotC, and then eventually gets locked.




I'm not discounting your feelings here, because your feelings are your own and can definately influence your enjoyment of this site. But why is your opinion a "legimate complaint" while others' opinions are "fanboys trying to shout down people?" Maybe it would help us all to remember that this is a forum to share opinions and that painting those with opposing opinions as "fanboys" doesn't help anyone's enjoyment of this site.


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## Morrus (Jul 27, 2010)

OK, we're not going to turn _this _thread into an edition war or an argument; self-fufilling prophecies may be fun at times, but they're not particularly helpful here. This is neither a free-soapbox zone nor do the usual rules not apply. Stay on topic, please folks. Thanks.


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## jimmifett (Jul 27, 2010)

I love the site, and would love to subscribe, but can't justify to my wife a monthly subscription even in good times. It's a lot easier for me to plunk $36 on a whim and say "it lasts all year Baby" than have a recurring line item to justify each month.

As someone who develops backends for such sites, I can attest that the costs involved in processing CC transactions is not fun. $3 with paypal is at the slightly non-sucky part of the fee curve, and it's a lot better than a lot of other options for not getting TPK'd by fees.


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## Kobold Boots (Jul 27, 2010)

I can probably help by advising why I haven't subscribed simply by running down the list of things on the subscribe ad bar.

- Access exclusive content - What content exactly?
- More PM space - I'm no where near my current limit.
- Search Features - I've been here a month and haven't needed them yet.
- Custom Title/Avatar - Useless to the function of the site, its aesthetics.
- Disable Ads - Why would I want to eliminate one of the more useful parts of the site by doing that?  I find out about stuff through them.

- Campaign content - Assuming that's the exclusive content, I write my own stuff or can download stuff.  It's my experience that anything put on any site is available via torrents in a month.

Why would I subscribe - It comes down to utility

- Are you going to host a campaign site for me?
- Are you going to keep my gamers seeking gamers ads in preferential places?
- Are you going to put me in touch with people who could write custom modules for me when I'm knackered for time (DM outsourcing lol)
- Are you going to send me an email that contains links to threads similar to things I've posted about such that I can come here when something focused happens?

See, I'm a guy with a ridiculous schedule and odd bits of free time that aren't predictable.  My gaming time and family time is sacrosanct, so I'm going to look at any service that lowers my prep time in any way or helps me stay organized as worth subscribing for. 

Cause truthfully, I don't have time to enjoy all the fluff. Sad really.

Thanks for the thread.
KB


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## Morrus (Jul 27, 2010)

Just to clarify again, folks - with apologies.  But I am looking for a specific piece of information here - it's why people have been cancelling in the last three months in particular.

I realise that "why I haven't subscribed" is in the same subject area (and that may well be a thread at some other point - takeup levels are perfectly fine, so it's not as pressing a concern as the recent spate of cancellations), but what I really need to pin down here is what's prompting these cancellations.

If we would stay on topic, that would really help.  Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly interested in your stories of why you didn't subscribe, what you thought the moderation here 3 years ago was like, and so on, but it's far more important right now that I get that specific bit of information.

Thanks - I hope that didn't come across too abrupt.  It's just that I need to pin down that particular thing right now.


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## Kobold Boots (Jul 27, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Thanks - I hope that didn't come across too abrupt.  It's just that I need to pin down that particular thing right now.




I'm with you Morrus and apologies for straying but I think you're not thinking globally.

Why are people dropping their subscriptions is the same thing as why are people not subscribing. (They're choosing not to subscribe.) People subscribe because they think they're getting something useful.  What I'm telling you from my perspective is what you're offering isn't useful to me for a rotating paid subscription and why.

Aside from that, you're getting replies that Paypal makes people concerned and the economy isn't great, spousal considerations etc.  Those are signs that people don't find what you're offering as having value considered against other hobbies or personal relationships.  There's a reason for that.. value.  See the general content of my above reply as to what content would benefit me and make me subscribe, because I consider myself median and others may think similarly.

Sorry for thinking your reply was a bit dense, and for this slappy follow up reply 

Best, 
KB


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## RangerWickett (Jul 27, 2010)

Russ, it might help to edit your first post to make that clearer; I imagine some folks are reading the entry page and replying before they make it all the way through the thread.


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## Fanaelialae (Jul 27, 2010)

When I renewed I ended up with two subscriptions so, when I noticed it, I canceled one of them.


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## Morrus (Jul 27, 2010)

Kobold Boots said:


> Why are people dropping their subscriptions is the same thing as why are people not subscribing.




I respectfully disagree.  There's an overlap, sure.  

People not subscribing in the first place because EN World doesn't provide X is one issue; a lot of the time it's because EN World *can't* provide X.  That's OK - we've decided what product/services we can provide and are doing so, and some folks will take us up on that and some won't.  That's completely factored in to the business plan.  Most of the time there simply is nothing we can do about that; we can't provide OD&D materials, we can't provide non-PDF materials as a subscription, we can't provide personal grooming services, etc.  

That's fine, that's not what we're selling, and there's no mystery as to why folks who want those things are not subscribing.  We're also not selling motorcycles, and there's no mystery as to why motorcycle fans aren't subscribing. The take-up levels are sturdy, and we're happy with them at present - the content is prompting good levels of subscription.

I know that sounds simplistic, but there's more planning involved than that - I just don't want to turn this thread into a diversion.

People who subscribed but then cancelled, however, are a specific group of people who originally wanted the things we were selling but then decided otherwise.  That's where we need to pin down what's going on.  

Anyway, I don't want to sidetrack this into a general discussion of business theory or anything.  Basically, the info we need right now is related to cancellations, not original subscriptions.


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## Kobold Boots (Jul 27, 2010)

Morrus said:


> I respectfully disagree. There's an overlap, sure.
> 
> People not subscribing in the first place because EN World doesn't provide X is one issue; a lot of the time it's because EN World *can't* provide X. That's OK - we've decided what product/services we can provide and are doing so, and some folks will take us up on that and some won't. That's completely factored in to the business plan. Most of the time there simply is nothing we can do about that; we can't provide OD&D materials, we can't provide non-PDF materials as a subscription, we can't provide personal grooming services, etc.
> 
> ...




.. and that is a completely fair answer. I'd argue that you need to put a form submission in place when people choose to unsubscribe and make it a required text field such that you'd not have to ask the question.. 

If you've already done this and are still asking the question because people aren't answering you effectively, I'm sorry to hear that.


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## PaulofCthulhu (Jul 27, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Basically, the info we need right now is related to cancellations, not original subscriptions.




Why make this a forum topic rather than emailing the people who cancelled and asking directly?


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## MrMyth (Jul 27, 2010)

Kobold Boots said:


> .. and that is a completely fair answer. I'd argue that you need to put a form submission in place when people choose to unsubscribe and make it a required text field such that you'd not have to ask the question..
> 
> If you've already done this and are still asking the question because people aren't answering you effectively, I'm sorry to hear that.




Well, no one _needs_ to give him a reason when they unsubscribe. I think this is his attempt to reach out and see what reasons they have, from those who want to give them. A forum thread hardly seems an inappropriate method which with to do so, nor is the desire to try and keep the responses in the thread on-topic. 

I mean, my opinions have largely been in-line with yours on the entire issues, but I think it is a bit much to start arguing that he "needs" to approach this topic in one specific fashion, and that doing so in a different method (via a forum thread) is somehow unacceptable.


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## Wicht (Jul 27, 2010)

ValhallaGH said:


> For some reason I'd ended up with two subscriptions.  One just had to go.




I ended up with three and canceled two.


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## nedjer (Jul 27, 2010)

Paypal may be a pain for some but those who subscribed once could get it working, so it seems unlikely that's decisive.

It'll probably be content, because it's always content - especially with subscription services. Give out a whole campaign on day one and the warm, happy glow will last for three months. Give out the same campaign in six installments over a year and the warm, happy glow will last for a year and three months.

Currency also tends to be a factor, e.g. a crisp new Kobold Quarterly has exclusivity. A KQ back catalogue has lost it's 'buzz' and is archive material. 

Perhaps check out the frequency of different subscription downloads. Monthly analytics should tell all. If Ordo and similar downloads have diminished over time it's maybe headline content that's losing it's long tail. The on-going uptake'll complicate the picture but there should be tracks if you factor in new members against total numbers.

It'd also be worth tracking WotC reach and richness against EN World's on Alexa and Quantcast; to see to what extent EN World's fortunes are linked to 4e. You won't get clean results, as, for instance, WotC interest will be up with CCG sales up. However, it might indicate whether or not you want subscription leaders to focus on 4e or more generic content.


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## harpy (Jul 27, 2010)

The main reason I subscribed was for the search functionality, which I used a decent amount.

What is curious to me is that I had my subscription set up to automatically pay the $3 every month, which it did.  I'd get emails once a month updating that I was charged the $3.  

Then for some reason it just stopped.  I hadn't been using the site much and then one day when I came on and I noticed that I wasn't a supporter anymore.  I didn't actively do anything.  I don't think my credit card expired.

I haven't reupped mainly because my wife and I are about to close on a house and I need to demonstrate lily white fiscal restraint, not because $3 will undo us, but to demonstrate to my wife (who lacks fiscal restraint) that she needs to tighten her belt right now.  She's looking for any excuse to spend more money on nesting right now.  I think in a couple of months when we're settled and a clear house budget is established then I could re-up.

As for services...   Like I said, I'm here for older forum content.  I'm not into 4E so none of it interests me.  Actually, I don't even know anything about this site aside from the forums.


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## Morrus (Jul 27, 2010)

PaulofCthulhu said:


> Why make this a forum topic rather than emailing the people who cancelled and asking directly?




I don't want to be invasive.  This is an easy way for folks to share info if they want to.


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## mach1.9pants (Jul 27, 2010)

EDIT:


Morrus said:


> I don't want to be invasive.  This is an easy way for folks to share info if they want to.




I don't think it is too invasive, if they have selected the option of 'receive emails from admin' then they want to 'receive emails from admin'

And a PM, please if you don't mind so I know how to improve, why did you unsubscribe is not in any way invasive.. it is just good customer care IMO.




Morrus said:


> Just to clarify again, folks - with apologies.  But I am looking for a specific piece of information here - it's why people have been cancelling in the last three months in particular.
> 
> I realise that "why I haven't subscribed" is in the same subject area (and that may well be a thread at some other point - takeup levels are perfectly fine, so it's not as pressing a concern as the recent spate of cancellations), but what I really need to pin down here is what's prompting these cancellations.
> 
> ...



Maybe PM all those that have stopped and see what you get.


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## stonegod (Jul 27, 2010)

My older (non-renewable) account expired during the time when $$ was tight. That should be clearing up so I plan to re-up to support the site.


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## jonesy (Jul 27, 2010)

The moment you offer a way to subscribe that doesn't involve Paypal is the moment I'll do it.


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## Kobold Boots (Jul 27, 2010)

MrMyth said:


> Well, no one _needs_ to give him a reason when they unsubscribe. I think this is his attempt to reach out and see what reasons they have, from those who want to give them. A forum thread hardly seems an inappropriate method which with to do so, nor is the desire to try and keep the responses in the thread on-topic.
> 
> I mean, my opinions have largely been in-line with yours on the entire issues, but I think it is a bit much to start arguing that he "needs" to approach this topic in one specific fashion, and that doing so in a different method (via a forum thread) is somehow unacceptable.




Morrus is the admin and he can communicate how he wants.  I think that the term "unacceptable" is a bit strong given the content in my posts and I won't endorse that term in conjunction with my posts.

However, what I am suggesting (required comment form for unsub) is best practice for just about every other online subscription service I've ever partaken in, whether it's WoW, or DDI or anything else, so it's not beyond the realm of civility to approach that as a suggestion.

It was also appropriate for me to state that I had no idea if he'd already done so.  "Helpful" isn't always about being right, and arguing that he "needs" to put something in isn't the same thing as insisting it.

Thanks,
KB


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## tenkar (Jul 27, 2010)

I noticed earlier today my annual sub had run out.

I had to think long and hard before re-upping with the monthly, and I'm not sure how long I will stick with it.  That being said, I did opt for the Silver Level (GO ME!), but that was mainy because I want to support the site, but i'm not sure I'll stay with the monthly sub.

The yearly sub was set and forget, I didn't have to balance my checkbook against a reoccuring monthly withdrawl, no matter how small.

I don't really care one way or the other for the PDFs that are part of the sun.  I already own War in 3.5 and don't play 4e.  Heck, most of my gaming is with retroclones these days.

I like the ENWorld Community.  I've been coming here for years.  I still find threads to read or add my 2 cents to.  I just don't like the monthly sub as the only option.  

I'm subscribed for now.  Lets see how it goes.


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## broghammerj (Jul 28, 2010)

Morrus said:


> I don't want to be invasive.  This is an easy way for folks to share info if they want to.




Morrus,

Just a few comments on getting feedback about cancellations. 

1.  A public thread may not be an appropriate venue to share why someone would cancel.   I am sure some people don't want to come in and dump on the website which in some ways indirectly relates to you and other contributors.  Sort of like the phrase, "if you can't say something nice...."  I think Enworld was formed as a community and criticism may be felt as more personal rather than directed toward a business (it was a long time before I realized Enworld was a business site and I don't think I'm alone).  Also if it is personal or financial reasons people may not want to air their own dirty laundry on the internet.

2. I don't think it is intrusive to email or solicit a response when framed in the manner of a business looking to improve product and customer service.  Again I don't think people think of Enworld in a business fashion so you have to present the solicitation in that way.  Asking for a PM, email, or even posting to a thread created by you makes it somewhat personal.  My suggestion would be to send a solicitation email that allows someone multiple was to give feedback: anonymously to something such as survey monkey, information that there is an active thread on the matter, or personally PMing you.

I don't know if you can track use of the site by individuals, but my base assumption is that someone who let their sub go probably isn't using the site as much and may not see the thread for days.

Also does this correlate to an anniversary of a subscription drive when things were discounted and hence a disproportionate number of subscribers corresponds to a large numbers of lapsed accounts clustered at one time instead of the expected churn or turnover each month


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## JeffB (Jul 28, 2010)

Stoat said:


> I don't subscribe because ENWorld, particularly the general forum, is less and less interesting to me.
> 
> The number of new threads in general seems to have decreased.  Umbran closed the "What could WotC do to woo back disenchanted fans" thread 2 days ago, and it's still on the main page.  A year ago, it would have dropped down to page two in a few hours.
> 
> ...





This is me- I'm a 4E fan, but I just don't participate much any more.The general boards are more about theory and gripes disguised as theory, and usually devolves into the same old edition polarization. My elves are better than yours.  I spend most of my time online at some of the smaller "old school D&D" forums & BLOGS where there's a bigger emphasis on the game, creating for it & playing it vs. the industry/WOTC sux/D&D "politics" and general internet 3.x vs 4E B&M'ing here. 

And on the flip side, none of the subscriber content I've seen as of yet has interested me enough to pay a monthly fee. Among the "D&D BLOGOSPHERE" (both old & new school) there is a TON of incredibly well done free content out there. Not saying I'm not willing pay for something I want (I've paid a ton of money for some old gaming items) , but I  can find alot of inspiration & good D&D material elsewhere without having to pay a monthly fee. Also having to pay for a search feature really irks the crap out of me- I am on few dozen different forums for several of my hobbies and this is the only site I have seen where you have to pay to use a search feature. I relaize the cost and work associated with keeping the site runnning- I've donated a couple times (way) in the past, but..well 


Also, I can see why subs would drop off with a monthly recurring payment, and having a gap in the subscriber content. (and I have no issues with PayPal, personally).  Not a great analogy, but Its kinda like buying a magazine off the shelf that is in sealed plastic wrap, vs the discounted subscription price via mail. If it's a magazine you REALLY want, you will buy it for a year or 6 months sub, get a better price, and be happy because you are saving some money and you don't mind the "non useful months" so much cos of the savings. But having to pay "full price", every month with the same hit or miss outcome? I'd cancel too after a couple "misses".


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## carmachu (Jul 28, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> I'm posting this thread to find out what you guys would like from an EN World subscription. The $3 subscriptions have been running for a while now, but in the last three months we've been seeing cancellations in droves - to the point where we're dipping to unsustainable levels. We're getting a dozen cancellations per day at the moment, and that's adding up to a lot of money over a few months!
> 
> ...





Mine cancelled because, well now money is tighter, but back then, for some reason, you kept rejecting the paypal automated payment from the bank, even though teh money was there. Or paypal did. Either way after a yearish of it going fine, one of the two ends was rejecting the money.


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## InVinoVeritas (Jul 28, 2010)

I was a community supporter, but now I am inactive.

Why? PayPal.

Specifically, PayPal refuses my money. 

It requires me to log in (other PayPal-using stores do not) and then refuses to accept who I am. When I try to make a new account, no, sorry, that email is in use. When I ask for the password to be sent to that email, no, sorry, we don't have a record of that email.

So, it is honestly and truly impossible to renew my support. Change that, only that, and you will have my money.

I do not use the content--I've never been a big module buyer. (And if you want to know how long I've played and purchased, note I said "module.") I use the forums. They are the best forums I've found out there, forums that simply are not found anywhere else. Even though these skew 4e, I've been able to discuss other RPGs, and even more importantly to me, discuss the ins and outs of the RPG experience itself. Other sites either focus too strongly on one system to keep my interest, or cannot retain the level of civility of this site. I also play in the PBP Living Worlds here. For that, I am willing to pay to help keep it around.

But, with PayPal doing what it does, I cannot support ENWorld. It saddens me.


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## Aegeri (Jul 28, 2010)

RangerWickett said:


> We're working on a new campaign saga, developed wholly for 4th edition (rather than a conversion). While it would definitely be several months at least before we can roll that out, I wonder how well that would draw subscribers.




That would interest me, but the flaw you'd have is that starting at level 1 I wouldn't be terribly keen on it. I'm very fed up with low level adventures, seeing as Dungeon is brimming with billions of them. I'm really wanting more paragon and epic tier stuff. I would definitely think about plunking down $3 (probably around $4.50ish New Zealand for me) for something dedicated to 4E in the Paragon/Epic tier. There is a dearth of material there, so it would catch my interest more than easily.

Problem is I despise PayPal and they hate me equally as much. I've had never ending technical issues and other problems trying to use it, so I'm unlikely to be able to subscribe anyway.



Umbran said:


> Have no fear of that.  If there is one thing Morrus does understand, it is how much that antagonism hurt the community and the site.




I waited almost a year after I registered on the forum before I bothered posting because of the edition wars. I had my fill of it from the official Wizards boards (Should have learned my lesson the first time though, back in 2001).


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## redboxrazor (Jul 28, 2010)

1. I haven't subscribed because I am not aware of all of the benefits of subscribing. This thread has done more to explain that to me than anything else on the site.

2. I am not a fan of 4E. More Pathfinder or even GURPS content would be of use to me.

3. The quality of the forum discussions has decreased in just the few short months since I joined. Now, I rarely find one interesting new post a day. Back around January, I could refresh all day and find cool new threads.

4. Discussion here seems muted. I understand the precautions that must be taken to avoid an edition war, but it has the unpleasant side effect of silencing me. Many times, I have what I think is a good insight, but I am afraid to post it in even the most respectful terms simply because I am concerned about the backlash I will create. In short, it seems like the boards are regularly ruled by immaturity - nobody can stand having his/her opinion challenged, because of a flawed and inherent sense of entitlement.

5. Many times, I make a relevant point, only to be told that I am not contributing to the discussion because my opinion differs from the OP or whoever happens to be leading the thread. Again, I feel silenced by the community.

In essence, I don't want to pay to be belittled or muted. At least if I get fed up and stand up for myself someday, possibly leading to a ban, I haven't lost any money in the process. If real discussion starts happening around here again, and the subscriber content is more varied to my liking, I would gladly subscribe. As it stands, though, I'm just a lurker again because I apparently have nothing to contribute - including my money at this point in time.


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## Vartan (Jul 28, 2010)

Maybe this is more of a tech support thing...but when I go to the "Payments" page there isn't a link to a page that allows me to subscribe. The "Subscribe Now!" image isn't a link, just an image


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## Shemeska (Jul 28, 2010)

I've still got around another two years left on an old 3-year subscription from just prior to when you went to the subscription model, so for me this isn't much of an issue. However if I didn't have it and was on the monthly subscription I would probably cancel just to save the extra $ each month.

I've literally never downloaded any of the subscriber content, and I can do without search and avatars and titles when it comes down to it. Plus the issue of the same few people trainwrecking threads in general time and again has gotten old and were I able to cancel I might (prorated refund probably isn't an option being offered).


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## Noumenon (Jul 28, 2010)

nedjer said:


> Paypal may be a pain for some but those who subscribed once could get it working, so it seems unlikely that's decisive.
> 
> It'll probably be content, because it's always content - especially with subscription services. Give out a whole campaign on day one and the warm, happy glow will last for three months. Give out the same campaign in six installments over a year and the warm, happy glow will last for a year and three months.




You're right, Paypal should be workable for recurring subscribers, if not new ones.

I ended up never downloading _any_ War of the Burning Sky once I found out my subscription only entitled me to one month at a time (not even sure if you can save up and download the whole thing after a year).  "All at once" would have made it an actual benefit for me.  Most people, once you've given them something, will feel some kind of obligation to you and will not welsh after one month's subscription.



harpy said:


> What is curious to me is that I had my subscription set up to automatically pay the $3 every month, which it did.  I'd get emails once a month updating that I was charged the $3.




Wouldn't it be great if Paypal glitches were the whole problem?



broghammerj said:


> Also does this correlate to an anniversary of a subscription drive when things were discounted and hence a disproportionate number of subscribers corresponds to a large numbers of lapsed accounts clustered at one time instead of the expected churn or turnover each month




That was my initial thought -- it was in April last year when Morrus posted the "Important! Please read! Changes are coming!" thread, which was the first time EnWorld had actively solicited my subscription.  I posted then,



Noumenon said:


> I think you might be getting cocky about that self-sustaining thing.  I don't see how you know that people are less likely to cancel the $3 subscriptions than yearly subscriptions when (IIRC) this offer has been running for less than a year...
> 
> If I were you I'd bank that money and work on retention rather than spending it on expansion.




Is the site "unsustainable" only because subscriptions went down, or did expenses go up to match the extra income?


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## Morrus (Jul 28, 2010)

Noumenon said:


> I ended up never downloading _any_ War of the Burning Sky once I found out my subscription only entitled me to one month at a time (not even sure if you can save up and download the whole thing after a year). "All at once" would have made it an actual benefit for me.




You mean the _entire_ adventure path for $3?  I agree, I'm sure prices like that would be attractive to many people, but they aren't possible to do. 

Trust me, I'd love to be able to offer quality content for almost nothing and try to rely on volume (the WalMart type approach), but that requires immense economies of scale. 



> Maybe this is more of a tech support thing...but when I go to the "Payments" page there isn't a link to a page that allows me to subscribe. The "Subscribe Now!" image isn't a link, just an image




There's a dropdown menu at the bottom of the page.  You select the currency you want to pay in, and then hit "Order".  I've attached an image below.



> Why? PayPal.




This does seem to be a recurring theme.  I hope one day we can afford our own credit card processor; I'm not keen on relying solely on PayPal, either.  Thing is, it's free (well, free to set up - it charges a comission, obviously).  

That's definitely something I want to change as soon as I'm in a position to.

Thanks for the input, guys.  There's some useful stuff here!


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## IronWolf (Jul 28, 2010)

Noumenon said:


> Most people, once you've given them something, will feel some kind of obligation to you and will not welsh after one month's subscription.




Heh, I think there a lot of people who would game the system once they realized they could pay $3 for one month, download the whole WotBS and then cancel.


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## mudbunny (Jul 28, 2010)

IronWolf said:


> Heh, I think there a lot of people who would game the system once they realized they could pay $3 for one month, download the whole WotBS and then cancel.




You can see people suggesting that with DDI.

"Subscribe for a month, update all the tools and download all of the magazines that have come out since the last time you subscribed."


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## Noumenon (Jul 28, 2010)

I'm going off Robert Cialdini's book _Influence_ and how much you can wrangle out of people by getting them to accept anything from you, even a flower.  That's why I don't believe offering people the back catalogue of WotBS _for subscribing_ is the same as offering it to them for $3.

Maybe I'm the only one who subscribed thinking I'd get to download the whole thing, then never downloaded anything at all because it was in pieces and not done yet (I just went and downloaded it finally, but it took about twenty clicks).  Maybe if there was a PM when a new segment became available, to make it easy to get and kind of remind you of the benefits of subscribing?


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## Kzach (Jul 28, 2010)

mudbunny said:


> You can see people suggesting that with DDI.
> 
> "Subscribe for a month, update all the tools and download all of the magazines that have come out since the last time you subscribed."




I really wish they'd provide one, easy, convenient link for all of that. Do you know how much work it is to find all the stuff and download it? Ugh. Seems almost like work to me


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## Umbran (Jul 28, 2010)

InVinoVeritas said:


> It requires me to log in (other PayPal-using stores do not) and then refuses to accept who I am. When I try to make a new account, no, sorry, that email is in use.
> 
> ...
> 
> So, it is honestly and truly impossible to renew my support. Change that, only that, and you will have my money.




Just because I've seen a surprising number of people who don't think of this...

You could just pick up a spare (and free!) gmail or hotmail address to attach to paypal.  I have several friends who have an address specifically for this and other e-commerce purposes, so their "conversational" e-mail doesn't get bombarded by amazon.com suggestions and other pseudo-spam.


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## MrMyth (Jul 28, 2010)

Morrus said:


> You mean the _entire_ adventure path for $3? I agree, I'm sure prices like that would be attractive to many people, but they aren't possible to do.




Well, it could be an issue even aside from the price. For one, how apparent it is before subscribing that you get only one download a month (since the subscription info from the attached image really makes it sound like you get the full deal as soon as you subscribe.) 

And aside from that... this may be tied to the monthly subscription element. Say someone wants to be a subscriber, _and _wants the Adventure Path - but right now. If they could pay for a years subscription and snag the entire path (or 12 issues worth, or whatever), that would seem the best option. But without that, they are instead left with paying for a subscription and getting it slower than they want... or paying for a subscription, buying the rest of the AP directly, and thus have their free downloads of it 'wasted' later on. 

Again, I know this isn't a direct answer to the thread, but you seemed to be viewing the objection to the 'one download a month' as all about money, and I think it might instead be simply about options.


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## Morrus (Jul 28, 2010)

MrMyth said:


> Well, it could be an issue even aside from the price. For one, how apparent it is before subscribing that you get only one download a month (since the subscription info from the attached image really makes it sound like you get the full deal as soon as you subscribe.)




I've included that information on the WotBS page:

*You can *_subscribe_* to the campaign saga right now with an EN World community supporter subscription for just $3 per month! The adventures will be released to EN World community supporter subscribers on a roughly bi-monthly basis, and those subscribers will receive BOTH the 4E and 3.5 versions of the adventures - so you're set whichever version of D&D you play!*

That could probably bear being repeated elsewhere, though, if folks aren't seeing it. I pretty much (possible erroneously) assumed that anyone who wanted WotBS would be checking out the WotBS page; but I guess there may be some folks who are happy to buy sight-unseen. 



> And aside from that... this may be tied to the monthly subscription element. Say someone wants to be a subscriber, _and _wants the Adventure Path - but right now.




It doesn't fully exist right now. When it's finished, it'll definitely be available to purchase as a single bundle. Right now you get 6 adventures and two guides immediately on subscription for $3, the rest coming as they're finished.

(The 3.5 version actually already is finished and available for purchase in various formats, including a big colour hardcover compilation - the 4E version is up to #6 of 12 so far).



> Again, I know this isn't a direct answer to the thread, but you seemed to be viewing the objection to the 'one download a month' as all about money, and I think it might instead be simply about options.




You can download as much as you want for your $3; you aren't limited to one download a month. I'm not sure where that's coming from. The "per month" thing is that we add stuff to the download area each month. We don't remove anything from it - so right now for $3, one gets _hundreds_ of dollars worth of stuff.

Anyway, if this thread is managing to successfully clarify things and point out for my reference where folks are needing clarification, that sounds like a good thing. Sometimes things will seem incredibly obvious to me because I already know how it works, but not to someone else. There's no such thing as too-little explanation, I guess!


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## Steel_Wind (Jul 28, 2010)

Morrus,

 I have no complaints over Paypal. If you didn’t offer it – then I’d be the one complaining.  

I have noticed, however, that a few times in the last months, because of timing of payments coming out of Paypal, the e-cheque does not clear by the first of the month  and your system “de-registers” my Community Supporter Account for a day or two until Paypal clears the e-cheque. I have to say that this is a DANGEROUS method of payment "enforcement". What you are doing is reminding Community Supporters of what’s it’s like *NOT* to BE a community supporter.

  If you obviously lost a lot or privileges when losing a Community Supporter Account --  that might be one thing. But the fact is, members don’t lose *that* much by being reduced to “free user” status. I think your automated system is reminding people in a manner which is not helpful to your marketing efforts; rather, it HURTS your marketing efforts.

  Secondly, I can’t believe that nobody has mentioned this more emphatically so I would rather stop beating around the bush:  yes people have been dropping in droves in the past months and it’s no surprise to me at all. 

There have not been many free product downloads of worth in the past three months. You need more new content to offer to subscribers. End or story. It's about the content. My guess is that the subscribers felt they had been keeping up the payment part of the bargain, but the content part of that bargain has not kept pace - and they bailed as a result.

Can't blame people for that perception, imo.  I know I've had it. I'm a huge fan of ENWorld and so I have not pulled the trigger on cancelling my subscription. But that decision was made out of a sense of love for the website. In terms of my percepton of eroding value for subcription price? The subscription price no longer seems worth it to me as a straight up transaction as new quality content has not been released monthly so as to justify it. 

IMO, If you don’t add more quality content regularly every month I would expect to lose more people, too. Moreoever, you need to balance that content between 4E and Pathfinder.  And you need it now – not six months from now.

  There are a lot of people who will donate to the website to keep it afloat. However, my guess is that *most* people’s charity level is between $10-20 a year for ENWorld as a freebie. You are asking for $36. There is, accordingly, a $16-26 “gap” between charity and monthly subscription cost that ENWorld has to fill with content to make up that gap in perceived value.

  IMO, in the past several months you have not been filling that gap adequately. No wonder you have been losing subscribers.

Other issue: _War of the Burning Sky_ has been out for years now.  RE-releasing it as a 4E perk may be of interest to those who are 4E fans. For those who are not? It has an appearance of very little value.


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## Vartan (Jul 28, 2010)

Morrus said:


> There's a dropdown menu at the bottom of the page.  You select the currency you want to pay in, and then hit "Order".  I've attached an image below.




Thanks for pointing that out: not sure how I missed it. And thanks for the great site and great deal on the Community Supporter account!


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## nedjer (Jul 28, 2010)

Noumenon said:


> You're right, Paypal should be workable for recurring subscribers, if not new ones.
> 
> I ended up never downloading _any_ War of the Burning Sky once I found out my subscription only entitled me to one month at a time (not even sure if you can save up and download the whole thing after a year).  "All at once" would have made it an actual benefit for me.  Most people, once you've given them something, will feel some kind of obligation to you and will not welsh after one month's subscription.




I don't know the ins and outs, but that'd be one strange way to run a subscription. Are you sure that's how it works? I'd have thought you could get everything up to the point where a subscription ends.

OK it seems it does work like that?

Oh no, wait a minute it doesn't work like that.


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## Morrus (Jul 28, 2010)

Steel_Wind said:


> I have noticed, however, that a few times in the last months, because of timing of payments coming out of Paypal, the e-cheque does not clear by the first of the month and your system “de-registers” my Community Supporter Account for a day or two until Paypal clears the e-cheque. I have to say that this is a DANGEROUS method of payment "enforcement". What you are doing is reminding Community Supporters of what’s it’s like *NOT* to BE a community supporter.




That, unfortunately, is completely beyond my control. I find it frustrating also, but I have no ability to change it.




> Secondly, I can’t believe that nobody has mentioned this....
> 
> (snip)
> 
> Other issue: _War of the Burning Sky_ has been out for years now. RE-releasing it as a 4E perk may be of interest to those who are 4E fans. For those who are not? It has an appearance of very little value.




That's fine; it's a solid answer.  If folks think the content isn't good enough to warrant $3, then I can hardly argue with them; I certainly don't want to try to convince you to buy something you don't want - it doesn't jibe well with my sense of decency.


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## Noumenon (Jul 28, 2010)

nedjer said:


> I don't know the ins and outs, but that'd be one strange way to run a subscription. Are you sure that's how it works? I'd have thought you could get everything up to the point where a subscription ends.
> 
> OK it seems it does work like that?
> 
> Oh no, wait a minute it doesn't work like that.




I guess I'm one of the people Morrus is talking about with misconceptions about things that he understands well.  I guess when I asked about it near the end of http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...-sky-campaign-saga-d-d-4th-edition-3-5-a.html I didn't clear up all my misconceptions!  I also wasn't aware the product was available for purchase in complete form, I thought it was a work in progress I had to wait for.

As a penance for taking this thread off track, I gave XP to all the people who actually answered Morrus' question in the original post.


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## Morrus (Jul 28, 2010)

Noumenon said:


> I also wasn't aware the product was available for purchase in complete form, I thought it was a work in progress I had to wait for.




Only the 3.5 version.

The 4E version is up to #6 of 12.


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## Kzach (Jul 28, 2010)

I really don't think it has as much to do with content as people are expressing.

Content, as far as I'm aware, was only a recent addition to the community supporter account benefits.

Although I think offering a $3 a month option was a solid step-forward, removing the other payment options was a major, *major* step back. As has been mentioned, $3 a month causes many people to constantly 'review' their decision to subscribe. And as has been mentioned, many people would take up the option to simply subscribe for a longer period as it's more convenient and cheaper (if you have the upfront cash to do it in the first place).

The very first thing I would do, before anything else, before reviewing content, or offering more options to pay other than PayPal, or even before investigating any further, would be to reinstate longer subscription options. That alone, I believe, will help things improve fairly quickly.

I'd recommend something on the order of $3 a month, $16 for six months, $30 for 1 year. Don't look at it as "1 year is $6 less than I'd get if they were $3 a month", look at it as, "That's $27 more than I might get if they were reviewing their decision after a month." Do the same for the gold, silver and whatever levels.

On a personal opinion level, I'd also scrap the entire notion of subscriber only content and board features. It's no doubt a headache, not to mention time-consuming, to manage all the different levels of access. Either do content or not. So far I'm getting the gist that doing content is not profitable, so personally I'd scrap it.

Make the boards searchable with full features for everyone, whether they're a subscriber or not. Keep the "gold, silver, copper" (or whatever levels it is now) but give them non-essential perks, like a gold, silver or copper icon next to their nick or something. Whatever it is, it shouldn't be on the level of getting something for your money. You shouldn't _have_ to pay for things on a forum.

This, I believe, will help engender and build the community as a community, rather than as, "what do I get for my money?" People were donating to the site before it ever required donations for perks, and people have donated to the site many times since for no other reason than to help keep it alive. People will only keep being generous as long as their IS a community to foster. People's generosity doesn't hinge on the ability to search or download an adventure module.

By not tying subscriptions to content, it eases your burden by a big amount, and ends the whole notion of supply and demand. People will continue to support a community they love, the problem here is that for many people, it's becoming a community they no longer want to support.


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## Markn (Jul 28, 2010)

Morrus,

I know you are looking for cancellation reasons.  But this reason has kept me from both subscribing and it would cause me to cancel.

Stability - ENWorld seems to go through fundamental shifts every 6 months or so.  In terms of account benefits, plans, options, what you can do on the site/what you can't do on the site and so on.  The simple fact is, I don't have faith that what I sign up for - whether its a month or a year - is what I will get at the end of my subscription.  Too many features change for my personal tastes.  Additionally, the fact that I keep hearing the site is going in the red also makes me leery too.  I understand that you want to improve the site, to make it more profitable but the methods feel haphazard at best.

To be honest, my main reason is financial constraints at this point, but once those are resolved, the stability issue mentioned above is what keeps me from signing on board.

One last note:  I also think Monthly is a terrible option.  I think users find it a pain to have to re-up each month or track the ongoing debits from their accounts.  I think it would be far more successful as a yearly subscription - but that is just my opinion.  

I truly do hope you find the magic formula!

Edit:  Kzach sums up what I was trying to say about the monthly subscription quite well.  Basically, its easy to get someone signed up but its even easier to have their account get cancelled.


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## Morrus (Jul 28, 2010)

Markn said:


> Additionally, the fact that I keep hearing the site is going in the red also makes me leery too.




You do? We haven't had serious financial problems for years, and we don't now (unless the same rate of cancellations over the last month or two continues for an entire year - but we'll have plenty of warning for that, and this thread serves to help catch something before it becomes a trend).



> I don't have faith that what I sign up for - whether its a month or a year - is what I will get at the end of my subscription.




But that would be dishonest, surely?


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## Scribble (Jul 28, 2010)

Make the subscription cost 2 dollars... Then you can chase us around yelling: "I want my two dollaaaarrrrrrsssss...."


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## DragonLancer (Jul 28, 2010)

Perhaps the question to ask is "what would convince you to or continue to subscribe to the site"?


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## Morrus (Jul 28, 2010)

DragonLancer said:


> Perhaps the question to ask is "what would convince you to subscribe to the site"?




Perhaps, if sign-up levels were dropping.  Sure, it would always be great to get more, but people are subscribing at a good rate.

Sign-ups are fine.  It's the recent rash of cancellations I'm investigating.  I'm trying to establish if it's the start of a trend or an aberration.  If the former, I can try to address it; if the latter we can absorb it just fine.


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## Jeff Wilder (Jul 28, 2010)

Morrus said:


> But that would be dishonest, surely?



"Dishonesty" in promising, but not providing, something is not the only possibility.  Nobody would call you "dishonest," for instance, if there were a personal tragedy in your life and you subsequently shut down EN World.  That's an extreme possibility, just to illustrate.


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## TheAuldGrump (Jul 28, 2010)

ValhallaGH said:


> For some reason I'd ended up with two subscriptions.  One just had to go.



I had to cancel two out of three. 

The Auld Grump


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## TheAuldGrump (Jul 28, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Just to clarify again, folks - with apologies.  But I am looking for a specific piece of information here - it's why people have been cancelling in the last three months in particular.
> 
> I realise that "why I haven't subscribed" is in the same subject area (and that may well be a thread at some other point - takeup levels are perfectly fine, so it's not as pressing a concern as the recent spate of cancellations), but what I really need to pin down here is what's prompting these cancellations.
> 
> ...



Morrus - it is quite likely that the reasons people don't subscribe are the same reasons people don't _stay_ subscribed. If they do not feel that the material they are paying for is worth the $3 a month then they pull their subscription. Heck, some may register for a month, grab what they want, then unsubscribe.

If they find PayPal annoying then it will keep annoying them every month. (A feeling that kept me from subscribing for years - PayPal had a bill that kept appearing on my account, every freakin' month, and neither the people who were getting the money or I was able to stop it. I'd contact PayPal, they'd refund the money, it would reappear the next month. Rinse & Repeat. Eventually PayPal just ended up deleting the transaction and swallowing the cost themselves.)

If folks aren't enjoying the forums as much as they used to, they are going to opt out. It does feel more factionalized than when I first started posting, 4e, the liking or disliking of, still remains a polarizing factor. I skip a lot of threads because they are about 4e, or start reading, then lose interest when it turns out to be 4e. (I wish folks would label 4e threads accordingly. Most do, but the exceptions linger in the mind.)

Offer both subscription models, monthly and annual. I actually prefer monthly, as long as I don't get multi-billed.

How many of those cancellations were being billed multiple times a month? I was, and I have seen posts by a few others. Putting in some sort of check for that might be a good idea. I had paid for a year's worth of subscription time in four months before I even noticed it. Some folks may cancel their subscription and mutter 'well, I'm never doing business with _them_ ever again'.

The Auld Grump


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## Holy Bovine (Jul 28, 2010)

Well after seeing this thread I went to the subscribe section - and low and behold there is a 4 month option for the copper level sub!  Perfect!  $10 for 4 months is awesome - great change there Morrus.  Now to hammer your servers as I download everything on the site


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## TheAuldGrump (Jul 28, 2010)

IronWolf said:


> Heh, I think there a lot of people who would game the system once they realized they could pay $3 for one month, download the whole WotBS and then cancel.



Or look at it, lose interest, and unsubscribe if you go with the current model. WotBS just didn't interest me that much.  So it is factored out of my calculations. 

I think keeping a three month chunk might work for those who are interested, maybe skipping months. so one month might have 1, 3, 5. The next 2, 4, 6. Then 3, 5, 7 and so on,* so there is always something coming up, but you don't feel bitter and hard used because the current issue is one you can't play.

The Auld Grump

* 1, 4, 7 - 2, 5, 8 etc. might work too.


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## Morrus (Jul 28, 2010)

TheAuldGrump said:


> Heck, some may register for a month, grab what they want, then unsubscribe.




Yes; a not-insignificant percentage does that (I can see the two-day subscriptions which include someone downloading every file).  There's nothing I can do about it, unfortunately, and have to factor it into the business model.


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## Dragonhelm (Jul 28, 2010)

Kzach said:


> Content, as far as I'm aware, was only a recent addition to the community supporter account benefits.




Content was the selling factor for me.



> Make the boards searchable with full features for everyone, whether they're a subscriber or not. Keep the "gold, silver, copper" (or whatever levels it is now) but give them non-essential perks, like a gold, silver or copper icon next to their nick or something. Whatever it is, it shouldn't be on the level of getting something for your money. You shouldn't _have_ to pay for things on a forum.




Seconded.  Search is a basic function that almost any board offers, yet by not allowing people to generally use it, that feels like the function is being "held hostage."  Certainly, I was not going to subscribe just to get that.  It took content, a reward for my money beyond the basics, that got me to subscribe.

I considered unsubscribing a few months back for various reasons.

1.  Moderation of edition wars.  I really dislike edition wars.  When a topic on the subject came up, a moderator (and I won't name names) basically threw up his hands in defeat saying that nothing could be done.  The conversation upset me, particularly since I've worked on a forum myself to eliminate the problem.  I know these forums are bigger, so it's a larger job, and I have a great appreciation for the job that the mods do.  I brought the issue up with Piratecat, and things began to get better after that time.  I was glad for the work Piratecat did, but the whole incident leaves a bad taste in my mouth to this day.

2.  Value of news.  There was a time when I would get news here before I got it anywhere else.  It was daily and fairly comprehensive.  I used to be able to find WotC news here first.  Now I find it first on WotC's site, which I now visit daily.  I don't think the news is as comprehensive or frequent as it used to be.  Perhaps I need to get my RSS news reader going again.

3.  Value of content.  There isn't a lot of content right now that interests me.  I liked getting War of the Burning Sky, but right now, I'm just interested in the 4e conversions.  Beyond that...not so much.

4.  Value of boards.  Truthfully, a lot of the discussion doesn't interest me.  That's why I don't participate more.  At one time, I enjoyed reading perspectives from industry insiders, as well as seeing news I wasn't getting elsewhere.  Now, a lot of it seems like the same-old, same-old.  Part of that may be due to me gaming for 19 years now.  After a while, the topics get redundant.

(As a side note, I appreciate that these boards are more family-friendly than RPG.net.  Some folks over there have a mouth like a sailor.)

5.  Money.  Times are tough right now.  Every dollar counts.

I don't know if I will cancel my subscription or not.  I'll just have to wait and see how things go and give it some thought.


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## MichaelSomething (Jul 29, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Yes; a not-insignificant percentage does that (I can see the two-day subscriptions which include someone downloading every file).  There's nothing I can do about it, unfortunately, and have to factor it into the business model.




Is a download limit really that hard to code?  

Also, you should seriously consider making an FAQ about your policy since people are asking questions that already been answered earlier.  Then again, people generally don't read FAQs, so I imagine that it would be a waste.


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## Morrus (Jul 29, 2010)

MichaelSomething said:


> Also, you should seriously consider making an FAQ about your policy since people are asking questions that already been answered earlier. Then again, people generally don't read FAQs, so I imagine that it would be a waste.




Yeah, it's not a question of the information not being available, it's a question of people not seeing it.  The more obvious you make it, the more people are bothered by its presence.  It's a difficult tightrope to dance on!


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## InVinoVeritas (Jul 29, 2010)

Umbran said:


> Just because I've seen a surprising number of people who don't think of this...
> 
> You could just pick up a spare (and free!) gmail or hotmail address to attach to paypal. I have several friends who have an address specifically for this and other e-commerce purposes, so their "conversational" e-mail doesn't get bombarded by amazon.com suggestions and other pseudo-spam.




Not quite. I've tried that, but then it says I need a different credit card number. I will get a throwaway address for ENWorld, but not a whole extra credit card.


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## Vartan (Jul 29, 2010)

TheAuldGrump said:


> Heck, some may register for a month, grab what they want, then unsubscribe.
> 
> The Auld Grump




You make a great point. I have no doubt that this happens, but I hope subscribers think twice about paying $3 just to raid the downloads section. The ENWorld community creates a lot of value for the hobby. Those who buy in should do so in good faith with a full understanding of what they're supporting, all PDFs aside.


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## Haffrung Helleyes (Jul 29, 2010)

*subscribing*

I let my subscription lapse awhile back, sometime during the 4E switchover.

To be honest, since switching to Pathfinder I find that I spend the bulk of my time on the Paizo boards.  4E threads don't really interest me, and what's left on EnWorld is pretty thin these days, compared to in the past.

Also, during the 4E launch and right after it  EnWorld started feeling like a WoTC publication to me.  I really did get the impression that a guerilla marketing campaign was being run right on these boards.   I don't see that so much these days, maybe because there's a 4E subforum now, but it left a bad taste in my mouth.

Ken


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## Lanefan (Jul 29, 2010)

Haffrung Helleyes said:


> Also, during the 4E launch and right after it  EnWorld started feeling like a WoTC publication to me.  I really did get the impression that a guerilla marketing campaign was being run right on these boards.   I don't see that so much these days, maybe because there's a 4E subforum now, but it left a bad taste in my mouth.



Whatever...there is and often has been enough really useful edition-neutral stuff - and intelligent, well-spoken people -  in here to keep me coming back, and I don't play 3e *or* 4e.

Lanefan


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## Haffrung Helleyes (Jul 29, 2010)

*Well*

Maybe you should become a Community Supporter then, Lanefan.  It sounds like EnWorld is everything you want it to be.

Ken


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## Kzach (Jul 29, 2010)

Dragonhelm said:


> 2.  Value of news.  There was a time when I would get news here before I got it anywhere else.  It was daily and fairly comprehensive.  I used to be able to find WotC news here first.  Now I find it first on WotC's site, which I now visit daily.  I don't think the news is as comprehensive or frequent as it used to be.  Perhaps I need to get my RSS news reader going again.





Dragonhelm said:


> 4.  Value of boards.  Truthfully, a lot of the discussion doesn't interest me.  That's why I don't participate more.  At one time, I enjoyed reading perspectives from industry insiders, as well as seeing news I wasn't getting elsewhere.  Now, a lot of it seems like the same-old, same-old.  Part of that may be due to me gaming for 19 years now.  After a while, the topics get redundant.



I was like this as well. The news section used to be the main page for me. Unfortunately there just isn't that much news anymore, period, given the (relative) death of the 3PP OGL industry.

As much as I enjoy content from WotC, I think it's perhaps one of the biggest downsides of 4e that there is no longer a vibrant and active 3PP OGL community producing a dearth of products.

That factor alone I think has had a massive impact not only on the amount of news that is out there to be reported but on the content and quality of conversations here.



Haffrung Helleyes said:


> Also, during the 4E launch and right after it  EnWorld started feeling like a WoTC publication to me.  I really did get the impression that a guerilla marketing campaign was being run right on these boards.   I don't see that so much these days, maybe because there's a 4E subforum now, but it left a bad taste in my mouth.



I will never understand this position. I'm the type of person that if I see a 'wrong', I'll jump on it, then jump up an down like a madman proclaiming the evils of it. And I just simply did not see anything even remotely like what you're saying you saw.

In fact, I find it bizarre that there are no longer WotC ads on this site. I go to many hobby forums for movies, Macs, writing and MMA, and they all have ads from industry big-guns supporting them. Hell, in several cases, it's their primary revenue. And yet here I've got random Google ads that can be anything from Evony to how to increase my sexual pleasure.

Copping criticism for having ads from WotC is just... bizarro world.


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## Lanefan (Jul 29, 2010)

Haffrung Helleyes said:


> Maybe you should become a Community Supporter then, Lanefan.  It sounds like EnWorld is everything you want it to be.



As I noted (far) above, the minute I find there's a payment method not involving PayPal or anything similar, I'm in.

Lanefan


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## Shazman (Jul 29, 2010)

Kzach said:


> I was like this as well. The news section used to be the main page for me. Unfortunately there just isn't that much news anymore, period, given the (relative) death of the 3PP OGL industry.
> 
> As much as I enjoy content from WotC, I think it's perhaps one of the biggest downsides of 4e that there is no longer a vibrant and active 3PP OGL community producing a dearth of products.
> 
> ...




It wasn't the ads. Who cares about the ads? It was one sided moderation (If you're not for 4E be quiet or you get your thread locked or a temporary ban!) plus too many over zealous WotC/4E defenders dogpiling on threads with even the slightest hint of criticism of 4E.


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## Noumenon (Jul 29, 2010)

Morrus said:


> We haven't had serious financial problems for years, and we don't now




It's really hard for me to read the first post in this thread as anything other than a declaration of emergency, even now that I know what you really feel.  Although I never really thought the place would go under.


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## Kzach (Jul 29, 2010)

Shazman said:


> It wasn't the ads. Who cares about the ads? It was one sided moderation (If you're not for 4E be quiet or you get your thread locked or a temporary ban!) plus too many over zealous WotC/4E defenders dogpiling on threads with even the slightest hint of criticism of 4E.




I may have focused my argument on the ads but that was simply because it was a stand-out element of the bizarro-world effect all the criticism of the site's relationship with WotC has had.

I noticed no bias one way or another. In fact, I feel the mods were way too lenient to BOTH sides. I was guilty of a few of those arguments myself but I quickly realised the futility and stupidity of getting worked up over what amounts to a personal choice.

If you saw a bias in moderation, I counter and put to you that it was your own personal bias that coloured your perception of the boards at the time, because I'm sure that anyone looking at the period through rational, objective eyes, would see that the only real bias was against people causing arguments left, right and centre, regardless of whose side those arguments represented.


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## JediSoth (Jul 29, 2010)

My subscription lapsed because my bank was acquired by a different bank and all my account numbers changed. Getting that change through PayPal was kind of a pain-in-the-butt, but I renewed my subscription as soon as everything got worked out.


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## Umbran (Jul 29, 2010)

Folks,

Morrus asked a specific question: about why folks have canceled subscriptions _*recently*_.  Old issues with moderation or advertising policy or other things over a year old are unlikely to be relevant.  If you want to discuss that, please take it to the Meta Forum, and keep this thread on topic.  Thank you.


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## Bedrockgames (Jul 29, 2010)

I never subscribed, so I can't give you any useful feed back on why levels are dropping. I can, however, give feedback on why I never signed up to begin with. It isn't because there was anything wrong with EN World. I like the site and enjoy using its forums when I have time. Really EN World is one of the better forums out there in my opinion. But I don't think a forum, is something I would ever want to spend money on, since so many (including the wizards of the coast forum) are free. Obviously 3 dollars a month isn't that much money, but spending any money at all on the net is always something I am hesitant to do (since I am concerned about things like ID theft). So for me, it just didn't seem worth the trouble, especially since the forums are the main reason I come here, and I still have access to those. 

Another thing is the only real reason I can think of for signing up appears to be war of the burning sky (the other things like more PM space, Custom Avatars, disabling ads, these aren't things I ever had a concern for before). But I am not really sure I know what War of the Burning Sky is. I've definitely seen the banners for it, and probably seen a few thread titles on it. Beyond that I don't know if it is a setting, a play by mail campaign, a fully loaded graphics based game etc. 

I know this is a little off the original question, but I hope it is helpful.


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## BryonD (Jul 29, 2010)

I dropped within the past three months.

I signed up during the change over to the monthly system.
I was on the fence because of the overall split and the reduced value of the site.  But, I figured I could go ahead based on all the past value.

Then changes were implemented that I found (and still do) counter-productive to the usefulness of the site.  I was told the changes "brightened up the day".  Fair enough.

I didn't let the door hit me on the way out. But, the question is now asked and answered.


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## Markn (Jul 29, 2010)

Morrus said:


> You do? We haven't had serious financial problems for years, and we don't now (unless the same rate of cancellations over the last month or two continues for an entire year - but we'll have plenty of warning for that, and this thread serves to help catch something before it becomes a trend).
> 
> 
> 
> But that would be dishonest, surely?




Two points here.  First, right before the change to the monthly subscription, IIRC, it was stated that there was concern about the long term viability of the site (or maybe it was just that you wanted to turn it more into a business).  In addition, I remember multipe campaign drives for donations to keep the site running and out of the red.

Second, in response to the dishonesty comment, I'm surely not claiming that.  What I am saying though, is that if I were to commit to the site, I would like the feature I sign up for to be the same.  There has been talk about changes to signatures limiting length, trying out this feature and that feature, hell I have heard that there has been work on engine that provides the site.  Without stability, I am careful to invest for any length of time.

Hope that helps you.


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## catsclaw227 (Jul 29, 2010)

Festivus said:


> I think I am in the same boat as Ari.  I have been enduring an 8% pay cut at work, and we had just bought our house a year before... so almost everything that was luxury went out of the budget.  Thankfully I get most of my D&D books for free, but that involves a lot of extra work on my part at the FLGS to drum up business for them.
> 
> Pay wise, I would prefer a lump sum subscription like you can get with DDI, with discounts for longer term subscriptions.  e.g. $3 a month, or $30 for a year, or $45 for two years, etc... whatever it is but monthly is almost never an option I go for.  I bought DDI when it was cheap for as many years as they would let me, and I usually do the same with paper magazines that I really like.




This is me.

I have my account because I bought 2 yrs in advance, and I really don't like the $3/month model.  I want to buy for a year and not worry about small transactions hitting my paypal account.  I use my Paypal for a LOT of things and I don't like the small minitransactions.

Also, I received a 15% pay cut almost a year and a half ago, also just buying a house the year before the cut.  There is very little room for luxury right now, but it's much easier to do $30 at once than deal with something smaller.


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## catsclaw227 (Jul 29, 2010)

Kzach said:


> I noticed no bias one way or another. In fact, I feel the mods were way too lenient to BOTH sides. I was guilty of a few of those arguments myself but I quickly realised the futility and stupidity of getting worked up over what amounts to a personal choice.
> 
> If you saw a bias in moderation, I counter and put to you that it was your own personal bias that coloured your perception of the boards at the time, because I'm sure that anyone looking at the period through rational, objective eyes, would see that the only real bias was against people causing arguments left, right and centre, regardless of whose side those arguments represented.




I didn't see much bias either.  I think that the bias was felt most by the loud and those that took the introduction of 4e personally (both those who liked 4e and disliked 4e).

Otherwise, in my opinion, the moderation was tighter and bent on keeping the angry, fringe extreme posts in line.


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## ancientvaults (Jul 29, 2010)

JeffB said:


> This is me- I'm a 4E fan, but I just don't participate much any more.The general boards are more about theory and gripes disguised as theory, and usually devolves into the same old edition polarization. My elves are better than yours. I spend most of my time online at some of the smaller "old school D&D" forums & BLOGS where there's a bigger emphasis on the game, creating for it & playing it vs. the industry/WOTC sux/D&D "politics" and general internet 3.x vs 4E B&M'ing here.
> 
> And on the flip side, none of the subscriber content I've seen as of yet has interested me enough to pay a monthly fee. Among the "D&D BLOGOSPHERE" (both old & new school) there is a TON of incredibly well done free content out there. Not saying I'm not willing pay for something I want (I've paid a ton of money for some old gaming items) , but I can find alot of inspiration & good D&D material elsewhere without having to pay a monthly fee. Also having to pay for a search feature really irks the crap out of me- I am on few dozen different forums for several of my hobbies and this is the only site I have seen where you have to pay to use a search feature. I relaize the cost and work associated with keeping the site runnning- I've donated a couple times (way) in the past, but..well
> 
> ...




   The above hits it on the head for me...

I support ENWorld because of nostalgia. I was a scooper for Eric Noah ages ago in the 3.0 days, before there was ENWorld. Then my interest waned with 3.5. I don't mind Paypal, the $3 is no problem, but there is such a plethora of material out there, I am feeling more and more tempted to drop not only my subscription, but to just stop coming here. There are dozens upon dozens of blogs, for all sorts of games out there, and it is just gathering steam. I don't use many of the features here and don't play 4E. There are other forums which are easier to get what you want from. 

While I haven't cancelled, I am a "tetherer", not because of Paypal, money isn't tight, I just am losing all interest in something that doesn't do anything for my game.


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## Morrus (Jul 29, 2010)

catsclaw227 said:


> I didn't see much bias either. I think that the bias was felt most by the loud and those that took the introduction of 4e personally.




It was generally claimed by those who were at the receiving end of moderation, unsurprisingly. 

But there was no bias or opinion from our end. Just little patience for bad behaviour. And, as we've pointed out before, the percentage of rude posts is higher amongst those expressing a negative opinion about something (_anything_, not just D&D) than someone expressing a positive opinion - it's hard to be rude and complimentary at the same time! Coupled with the fact it's a lot easier to blame someone else for being moderated (the mods, conspiracy theories, secret allegiances with WotC or the Illuminati) than to reflect on one's own behaviour and acknowledge that one might have been acting in a less than perfect manner.

But that's all by-the-by; perceived moderation policies from three years ago are not going to be a reason for someone signing up for a $3 subscription in the last 9 months and cancelling it in the last two.


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## PaulofCthulhu (Jul 29, 2010)

Morrus said:


> It was generally claimed by those who were at the receiving end of moderation, unsurprisingly.




Speaking of moderation, it looks like my post on this page has been deleted. So I can only guess that what I said wasn't somehow liked. A pity I thought it was constructive as to how get the the responses Morrus was after.

I'll refrain from posting further.

All the best.


Mod Edit: One of the Rules of EN World is that you don't discuss moderation in-thread.  If you have a question about moderation, we ask you to e-mail or PM a mod.


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## Lord Xtheth (Jul 29, 2010)

Well, I'm glad I could help. When my subscription dropped I didn't realize until your site said I wasn't a subscriber any longer. I re-subscribed because I love this place. 

What I think might help is a schedule for what free stuff is going to be released. One thing I look forward to is the war of the burning sky I'm getting for my subscription, I wish it would come faster so my players can play it all in one big row.

I know this doesn't answer your question, and I'm sorry


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## Kobold Boots (Jul 29, 2010)

Hey Morrus - 

Honest question.  Are you getting any replies other than the standard:

1. Times are tight
2. Paypal/Monthly only isn't for me.
3. No worthwhile content by the subscribers opinion.
4. Why subscribe to a place that doesnt' do what I do.

Cause really.. we handled all that in the first three pages at most, and I'm learning all about the hundred years mod war that I should have no knowledge of and makes me want to subscribe less. 

Still, our critics are our friends and all that, but I can watch shark week on discovery.


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## amerigoV (Jul 29, 2010)

Kobold Boots said:


> Cause really.. we handled all that in the first three pages at most,




In my too many years on the internet I have learned that any postings after the second page has a HUGE diminishing return on value to a topic. I only read after 2 pages to watch the train wreck unfold  (nitpicking, open up old wounds, parsing of words, mod shuts it down, etc).


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## Haffrung Helleyes (Jul 29, 2010)

OK, what I see here is

1) you ask why I don't subscribe
2) I answer you, critically, but politely.
3) you  dismiss my answer and imply that my past behavior has been bad.
4) Another moderator calls out a whole class of reasons someone might not want to subscribe to EnWorld as not germane to this discussion.

This, in a nutshell, is a perfect example of why I spend my time on the Paizo boards these days.

Ken






Morrus said:


> It was generally claimed by those who were at the receiving end of moderation, unsurprisingly.
> 
> But there was no bias or opinion from our end. Just little patience for bad behaviour. And, as we've pointed out before, the percentage of rude posts is higher amongst those expressing a negative opinion about something (_anything_, not just D&D) than someone expressing a positive opinion - it's hard to be rude and complimentary at the same time! Coupled with the fact it's a lot easier to blame someone else for being moderated (the mods, conspiracy theories, secret allegiances with WotC or the Illuminati) than to reflect on one's own behaviour and acknowledge that one might have been acting in a less than perfect manner.
> 
> But that's all by-the-by; perceived moderation policies from three years ago are not going to be a reason for someone signing up for a $3 subscription in the last 9 months and cancelling it in the last two.


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## Primitive Screwhead (Jul 29, 2010)

I am a current long term subscriber and have another year or so left before I make a choice. On the cons side for me boils down to running 4e with the DDI. House rules aren't what they used to be...and those are why I came here.

What I need now are encounters. I can make monsters.. but building an exciting encounter, village, or other set piece is hard for me to do.

The new city based AP is a definate draw

I suggest more dm freindly mini contents. Perhap a 'design an encounter' challenges?

Sent from my SPH-M900 using Tapatalk


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## coyote6 (Jul 29, 2010)

Haffrung Helleyes said:


> OK, what I see here is
> 
> 1) you ask why I don't subscribe




I think he asked specifically why people who had subscribed recently (in the last 9 months) had stopped subscribing even more recently (in the last couple of months), which isn't the same as "why don't you subscribe". Your first post in this thread said you let your subscription lapse during the 4e switchover, which was two years ago, wasn't it?


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## Imhotepthewise (Jul 30, 2010)

3 bucks! Only 3! Stay with us!


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## Chainsaw (Jul 30, 2010)

Imhotepthewise said:


> 3 bucks! Only 3! Stay with us!




I cancelled within the last three months because I just don't play 4E anymore and this site doesn't support what I do play (O/AD&D). I'm not going to pay even 1c for the general discussion forum here - I can get general discussion lots of places for free. Plus, for O/AD&D, there are other, *dedicated* sites that are much better, where newer edition discussion is forbidden. This has eliminated edition wars and fostered more constructive discussion, in my opinion. I'd rather send my dollars to those places. Pretty simple for me.


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## Morrus (Jul 30, 2010)

Haffrung Helleyes said:


> 1) you ask why I don't subscribe




Actually, I asked why some people had recently simultaneously cancelled. The timing makes the probability that it was something specific very recently very high indeed.  I'm trying to identify what that thing is.



> 2) I answer you, critically, but politely.




You were certainly polite.



> 3) you dismiss my answer and imply that my past behavior has been bad.




I did nothing of the sort. I made a general observation to catsclaw; I'm neither aware of your past behaviour, nor would I mention it in a thread like this if I _were_ aware of it.



> 4) Another moderator calls out a whole class of reasons someone might not want to subscribe to EnWorld as not germane to this discussion.




Umbran pointed out what specific information I was after in the hope that it would help me gather that information. The other information is certainly interesting, but right at the moment I'm trying to focus on one thing. It's too easy to derail the thread in other directions, and I'd like to stay focussed.


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## Shazman (Jul 30, 2010)

Morrus said:


> It was generally claimed by those who were at the receiving end of moderation, unsurprisingly.
> 
> But there was no bias or opinion from our end. Just little patience for bad behaviour. And, as we've pointed out before, the percentage of rude posts is higher amongst those expressing a negative opinion about something (_anything_, not just D&D) than someone expressing a positive opinion - it's hard to be rude and complimentary at the same time! Coupled with the fact it's a lot easier to blame someone else for being moderated (the mods, conspiracy theories, secret allegiances with WotC or the Illuminati) than to reflect on one's own behaviour and acknowledge that one might have been acting in a less than perfect manner.
> 
> But that's all by-the-by; perceived moderation policies from three years ago are not going to be a reason for someone signing up for a $3 subscription in the last 9 months and cancelling it in the last two.




I wasn't on the receiving end of the moderation, but I saw at least one of example of someone making a slight dig at 4E, which was definitely not extreme enough to warrant and moderator stepping in, yet the poster received a temporary ban without warning.  It was to the point that  ENWorld had a reputation for one-sided moderation and being a WotC mouthpiece on other foums.  If there is enough smoke, there must be a fire behind it.  I don't have a problem with moderation that is evenly applied to keep forums a friendly place to visit, but when it gets to the point where it feels like the mods are choosing sides and one side of a dicussion is being shut down more than the other side, I simply cannot rationalize financially supporting that site even if that support gets me perks I really want.  I'm sure others feel the same way.


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## Waylander the Slayer (Jul 30, 2010)

Perhaps it has to do with the overall trend with site visits and where 4e is in its product lifecycle.


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## Sammael (Jul 30, 2010)

I cancelled my subscription(s) to resolve the double subscription issue and then re-subscribed - maybe some other people had similar problems?


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## Wicht (Jul 30, 2010)

Waylander the Slayer said:


> Perhaps it has to do with the overall trend with site visits and where 4e is in its product lifecycle.




As I actually answered the question (had three subs, dropped 2) I'll venture forth a single off topic post: 

As interest in 4e seems to be slightly dropping, I find ENWorld more relevant to my posting habits once again. ENWorld was always, to me, a place where I could read what was going on in the broader DnD world, apart from WotC. Third party publishers made a point of dropping by and many, I think, were in fact partly inspired to get into the business through this site. WotC dropping the OGL actually pushed ENWorld further off my radar and as Paizo picked up the ball, I found myself more and more on their site, as theirs was the place to go to find out what 3pp were doing. While it is still that way, its getting better and I now check out the publishers forum here 2-3 times a week. 

For me, the more Morrus can do to get publishers to be involved in the site, the better for the site. One thing I would like to see is moving the publishers forum back into the general area. Those threads don't get that much response there.


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## Vyvyan Basterd (Jul 30, 2010)

Shazman said:


> I wasn't on the receiving end of the moderation, but I saw at least one of example of someone making a slight dig at 4E, which was definitely not extreme enough to warrant and moderator stepping in, yet the poster received a temporary ban without warning.




I *was* on the receiving end of moderation and I am a supporter of 4E. People tend to see their own bias in these issues. You can't possibly know every single instance of who's been moderated and which side of the fence they stood on. And if you truly believed that it was a "slight dig," the moderators here are friendly enough that if you PM them about it and don't discuss moderation in-thread they will reconsider. I've seen that happen. They are human and like the rest of us can over-react, have a bad day, or maybe just get sick and tired of a response that might as well be copy-pasted from that poster's last 20 posts.


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## crazy_cat (Jul 30, 2010)

I wont be renewing my subscription - it will expire at the end of this month.

Basically, I just don't find ENWorld offers anything of value any more that I'm actually prepared to pay for. I don't need more PMs, or a bigger signature, or mighty XP powers, or 4e materials in PDF - and I don't need to pay for a forum that I don't find as interesting or relevant to me as it used to be. The fragmentation of the D&D marketplace and move by some players (myself included) away from WOTC D&D to other games (OGL or otherwise) has to my mind seriously diminished the quality and breadth of discussions on ENWorld.

I spend more time now on Paizo and other forums than here as there are few threads here these days that I actually want to follow that don't end up getting mangled and derailed by edition wars. 

I also perceive the whole tone and moderation of the board to be more pro WOTC and 4e than neutral when it comes to the whole 'Paizo vs WOTC, I'm right you're wrong, your game is badwrongfun' internet argument. My opinion only obviously - but you did ask.


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## hewligan (Jul 30, 2010)

I cancelled my subscription for 2 reasons:

1) I was hosting a game here, but the game has finished and I visit and post here much less often. When I was hosting the game I wanted to contribute for the effort you put into the site
2) I am a Pathfinder player with no interest in 4e. This site, to me, felt like it moved to much towards 4e, and now I find I scan the General Forum on occasion but rarely find much to read or post on any more.


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## IronWolf (Jul 30, 2010)

hewligan said:


> 2) I am a Pathfinder player with no interest in 4e. This site, to me, felt like it moved to much towards 4e, and now I find I scan the General Forum on occasion but rarely find much to read or post on any more.




For the Pathfinder players, don't forget there is a Pathfinder forum at EN World that always welcomes new Pathfinder fans/posters:

Pathfinder RPG Discussion - EN World D&D / RPG News


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## pawsplay (Jul 30, 2010)

Morrus said:


> But there was no bias or opinion from our end. Just little patience for bad behaviour.




Oh, okay.



> Coupled with the fact it's a lot easier to blame someone else ... than to reflect on one's own behaviour and acknowledge that one might have been acting in a less than perfect manner.




Hmm...


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## Zaran (Jul 30, 2010)

Maybe you could host a DnD podcast like Critical Hits or Penny Arcade for subscribers only.


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## Morrus (Jul 30, 2010)

Zaran said:


> Maybe you could host a DnD podcast like Critical Hits or Penny Arcade for subscribers only.




That's actually part of a long-term plan.  Expensive to do well, though!


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## Morrus (Jul 30, 2010)

hewligan said:


> 2) I am a Pathfinder player with no interest in 4e. This site, to me, felt like it moved to much towards 4e, and now I find I scan the General Forum on occasion but rarely find much to read or post on any more.




Have you tried the Pathfinder forum here?  There is little Pathfinder discussion in General RPG, but there's plenty in the Pathfinder forum!


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## Stalker0 (Jul 30, 2010)

I will probably renew my subscription at some point to help the site, but I will admit I am in no rush to do so.

Here are my thoughts:

1) Subscriber only stuff: I have taken a look at it from time to time but I have never seen anything I was particularly excited about. I mean the amount of content is well worth the small price, but there's nothing there I'm that into.

Part of that my also be that I honestly couldn't tell you what content I have as a subscriber. Is there a singular place somewhere that has a list of all the good stuff I get? Is there a place for a non-subscriber to see the list of goodies he would get by subscribing?

Lastly I had though that the search function would be the number 1 thing I would like being a subscriber. I did use the search function from time to time but not nearly as much as I thought I would have.


2) Changes in the forum as a whole. It may be the forum reorganization as Morrus said, but to me the perception is the site has slowed down quite a bit the last few years. There are three forums I visit religiously...General, 4e, House Rules. I browse pathfinder once in a while.

I never really look at the other forums and personally don't like a lot of different forums. I like a general forum that is hopping with new content all the time, it lets me get a peak into threads I might never have noticed because they were in a smaller forum.


3) What I want. Right now, what do I want out of being a member? My main answer is speed. Features are nice, but at the end of the day I don't have a lot of free time anymore. I want to go to my 3 forums, see new content, write some posts, and be done.

The boards performance has been good ever since the last big sql cleaning, but if membership gave me preferred speed rates, extra features that made my browsing quicker, etc then I'd pay you more than $3 a month. Time is money afterall.


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## Morrus (Jul 30, 2010)

Stalker0 said:


> Part of that my also be that I honestly couldn't tell you what content I have as a subscriber. Is there a singular place somewhere that has a list of all the good stuff I get? Is there a place for a non-subscriber to see the list of goodies he would get by subscribing?




Yes: the subscription page.

Click on the big green subscribe banner to the right ----->, or the subscribe button at the top of every page ^^^^, or the subscribe option in the main page main menu.

Or simple click here:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/payments.php

I promise I'm not trying to hide it! I've plastered it everywhere!



> 2) Changes in the forum as a whole. It may be the forum reorganization as Morrus said, but to me the perception is the site has slowed down quite a bit the last few years. There are three forums I visit religiously...General, 4e, House Rules. I browse pathfinder once in a while.




Sounds to me like a financial resolution would be to recombine the various forums we've split. We deliberately split TONS of stuff from General RPG into their own forums. 

I could move all the stuff back into one big fat forum and it would speed by faster than you could keep track of. 

We split stuff because we thought it made it easier for people to find the stuff they were interested in. Like 4e? Look at the 4E forum. Like Pathfinder? Look at the Pathfinder forum. Like 3.5? Look at the Legacy forum. 




> I never really look at the other forums




That would contribute to the perception. You don't see the increasing traffic because you don't look at it. 



> Time is money afterall.




Well, if you're a multi-billionaire stockbroking genius. 

And in that case, you shouldn't be browsing EN World at work!


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## Stalker0 (Jul 30, 2010)

Morrus said:


> I promise I'm not trying to hide it! I've plastered it everywhere!
> 
> I could move all the stuff back into one big fat forum and it would speed by faster than you could keep track of.
> 
> We split stuff because we thought it made it easier for people to find the stuff they were interested in. Like 4e? Look at the 4E forum. Like Pathfinder? Look at the Pathfinder forum. Like 3.5? Look at the Legacy forum.





I think the first line just goes to show how direct I am in my viewing

As for the second one, I completely understand why you split things into different forums. I get it, it makes sense. I'm just tell you my browsing behavior. Maybe its me being lazy or just stuck in my ways, but I look at 3 forums for the most part.


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## Morrus (Jul 30, 2010)

I apologise for using red mod text - this isn't a mod post, but it is an important one.

I've started a poll in Meta about the structure of the forums.  Because we've moved almost everything out of General, a common theme in this thread is that "because General is quiet, I assume EN World is quiet".

Given that traffic is UP, not down, this is clearly an optical illusion caused by the forums splits.  There's _craploads_ of traffic - we've just moved it out of General and split it into bite-sized chunks.

The poll in Meta is about recombining stuff into General, or keeping it split out into a number of manageable forums.  

I don't promise to do what the poll says (I'll be discussing it with the mods as well), but I will definitely take it into account.  You'll find it here:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/meta/286346-recombining-forums.html


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## Mark CMG (Jul 30, 2010)

Morrus said:


> http://www.enworld.org/forum/payments.php





Before I click on a link I always check my status bar and if it reads something other than what I am expecting, I often skip clicking through.  Maybe you could change that page name to benefits.php or subscriber_benefits.php or something more promising, even if the dual pupose is to include payments.


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## Morrus (Jul 30, 2010)

Mark CMG said:


> Before I click on a link I always check my status bar and if it reads something other than what I am expecting, I often skip clicking through. Maybe you could change that page name to benefits.php or subscriber_benefits.php or something more promising, even if the dual pupose is to include payments.




Pardon?


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## Mark CMG (Jul 30, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Pardon?





The button says "subscribe" and the page (which people will see in the status bar) says "payments.php" and I am suggesting you change them to say "benefits" or something in that vein.


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## Storminator (Jul 31, 2010)

I canceled a couple months back, purely for financial reasons. I dropped the DDI, the cable and changed my phone options as well. None of those is large, but I'm in a mode where I'm adding them all up.

Sorry things are tough, man.

PS


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## Morrus (Jul 31, 2010)

Mark CMG said:


> The button says "subscribe" and the page (which people will see in the status bar) says "payments.php" and I am suggesting you change them to say "benefits" or something in that vein.





Oh, I see!

I don't think I can; it's a core vBulletin file and called from many other files.  Changing its name would break lots of things, I think.


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## Mark CMG (Jul 31, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Oh, I see!
> 
> I don't think I can; it's a core vBulletin file and called from many other files.  Changing its name would break lots of things, I think.





Bummer there.  Maybe Weem could adjust the button, though, I suppose.  Might make it a touch more inviting.


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## TheAuldGrump (Jul 31, 2010)

Morrus said:


> I apologise for using red mod text - this isn't a mod post, but it is an important one.
> 
> I've started a poll in Meta about the structure of the forums.  Because we've moved almost everything out of General, a common theme in this thread is that "because General is quiet, I assume EN World is quiet".
> 
> ...



Hmmm, I seem to recall being one of the voices protesting when the Pathfinder content got spun off into its own area, so I suppose that I ought to visit the poll....

The Auld Grump


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## Herobizkit (Jul 31, 2010)

I generally run my bank account at or near a zero-balance.  When my automatic sub fee comes out, I have usually forgotten about it, and the bank charges me 20 bucks for a NSF, putting me in negative balance.  Then, my PayPal gets tied up as it then has a negative balance which I normally pay... yep... through my bank, which dings me another 20 bucks NSF.  I gave up trying to keep up with it as your sub fee costs me 43 bucks a month because I suck at finances.


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## renau1g (Jul 31, 2010)

HB have you looked at overdraft protection? It'll help with those NSF fees, and generally costs only a few dollars a month. I got it when I bought the house, what with all those lovely automatic monthly withdrawals (esp. when car payment, daycare ($1700/month), and mortgage hit on the 1st of the month) and its worked out really well for me.


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## Herobizkit (Aug 1, 2010)

@renau1g: I have, but due to past financial transgressions, my current bank won't allow me to have it and new banks require a certain time of proven transactions before they'll allow me to have it.


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