# (OT) Hmmm Star Wars II Seen I Have!



## johncolossus (May 16, 2002)

Hooray 1st thread on Star WarsII !!!!
Just been to see it here in UK at least 5-6 hours before the USA can! Not to boast but we had an early Wed 15th late night showing of it. Cool! 

Overall 9/10
Cos it was first showing, atmosphere was great. Had manager of cinema come and introduce it, everybody clapped when it started and also when there was a ceratin Yoda scene! Lots of good characterisation for Anakin to show his slip towards the Dark Side.

Oh well it is now nearly 3 am UK time ...so time for bed. So definitely worth seeing (Natalie Portman.....lovely)

Everyone else enjoy the film.


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## UD (May 16, 2002)

Me to, just want to say i give it 8 /10.

OMG.

You must see this movie!


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## Mistwell (May 16, 2002)

1st thread on this? Don't you mean 8th?


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## Asmodeus (May 16, 2002)

I caught it aobut 10 hours ago. There was a special sneak preview on Wednesday midnight and considering that Asia timezone is ahead of most of you all, I caugh tit first.

Man the show rocks. I could almost compare it to Empire Strike Back and that Yoda scene was totally awesome. The villain was also pretty interesting but I wished they spent a bit more tiem developing his background.


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## Aaron L (May 16, 2002)

I'm going to see it in an hour!  (12:15 in PA)  At the Rowland, largest screen in central PA.  The place is HUGE, has a balcony (not open currently though), and not many people know it's playing there tonight!  Yip!


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## Rashak Mani (May 16, 2002)

So you guys didnt follow the First Week Boycott... bad boys...


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## Bugbear (May 16, 2002)

*I Saw it too!*

I just got back from a sneak preveiw of AOTC.  Great movie.  Definatly passed the Butt Test (where your'e more interested in whats hapining on screen than the fact your Butt's falling asleep).

In fact, It passed the Blader test too.


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## Wulf Ratbane (May 16, 2002)

Lookee! Bright lights and pretty colors!

I give this movie a 10!


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## Larry Fitz (May 16, 2002)

*Morpheus*

Just finished downloading AOTC off of Morpheus...  going to hook my PC up to my giant flat screen Plasma TV and show it to all the neighbors after dinner tomorrow...

Just kidding....


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## Dahak (May 16, 2002)

*Re: Morpheus*



			
				Larry Fitz said:
			
		

> *Just finished downloading AOTC off of Morpheus...  going to hook my PC up to my giant flat screen Plasma TV and show it to all the neighbors after dinner tomorrow...
> 
> Just kidding.... *





I'm not.  Well, I'm not going to give the neighbours a screening, and I certainly don't have a plasma flat tele, but I did grab the telesync that's floating about. It's not like it's going to prevent me from seeing it four or five times at the theatre anyway.

One thing of RPG note.... did anyone else think of Rifts during the mass battle?


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## Geo (May 16, 2002)

Yeah, I thought of rifts, very much so.  But I also liked other things too.  As someone else declared, first half, so-so, last half, definately worth the price.  Man, I can't wait to see it again.  Spider-man was good, but you could see it once and be satisfied, I really want to catch details about EPII that I might have missed the first time.  Well, at least I didn't cream my pants.


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## Corinth (May 16, 2002)

Lucas is GOD!

I just got back from the midnight screening at the AMC theater complex at the Har Mar Mall in Roseville about a half-hour ago.  I wasn't bored or annoyed.  I was thrilled, engaged and swept away emotionally and physically from the get-go.  The magic returned, and it felt like it did when I was a child.  Lucas got his groove back, and once again he's in contention to fill Kurosawa's vacant seat as the God of Filmmakers.


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## Aaron L (May 16, 2002)

Yoda is a demigod!


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## Dark Jezter (May 16, 2002)

It was everything I'd hoped for and more.  Everybody should go see this movie now.  It was just so incredible.  The final fourty minutes of this movie must be seen to be belived.  I didn't think a battle could possibly top the Battle of Hoth, but I was wrong.  I didn't think Yoda could out-badass Samuel L Jackson, but I was wrong.

Damn, now I can't wait until Episode III.


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## Imperialus (May 16, 2002)

I thought it was great.  Absolutly amazeing.  Definatly passed the bladder test.  Had to go as the opening text was scrolling up the screen and held it untill I got home.

BTW little tidbit.  Anyone recognize Senator Organa?  Or at least my guess as to who he was.

Also I loved the early prototypes of the AT-AT's and Star Destroyers.  You can definatly see how the movie gets to episode IV.

All things considered I'd give it a 9.5 out of 10.  Only thing it was missing was a fanboy dressed up like a wookie.  I felt like the biggest geek there wearing my starwars shirt (one where the picture is of the orriginal box cover for A New Hope).

*edit.  Recognize Organa, not Palpatine stupid Dave.


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## Thanee (May 16, 2002)

So it's not as bad as Episode I?
(For those who liked Episode I this question probably doesn't make sense.)

Cool! 

Bye
Thanee


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## RangerWickett (May 16, 2002)

As an action film goes, it is unmatched.  As for actual roleplaying . . . err, acting, there were a few bad scenes, but the ones that counted were great.  Much better than Phantom.


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## UD (May 16, 2002)

OMG. let me repeat that again OMG.

This first bit of the film is slow. but OMG.

One thing I have learn't from this film: 'Size matters not.'


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## Wulf Ratbane (May 16, 2002)

Here's how I see this playing out...

The folks who saw midnite shows of this are predisposed to love it, give it 9 or 10.

Then the second crowd of folks, the "non-boycott, just a movie crowd" will find it so-so-- 6 or 7.

The third crowd of folks, the boycotters, who nevertheless are SW fans, will like it just a bit more than the second crowd, 6.5-7.5.

For myself, and this is key, I find that once the elation of Yoda kicking ass wears off, it occurs to me just how much annoying Anakin/Padme crap I had to sit through to get any kind of action-movie payoff.

So, first reactions will continue to be good, it's definitely better than Ep1, but I certainly wouldn't say that "as an action film it is unmatched." (Preposterous claim, actually. Aliens. Die Hard. etc.) There are loooooong stretches of tedious poorly acted teen-filled angst cluttering up the movie to remind the audience that Lucas has all the subtelty of a sledgehammer to the forehead.


Wulf


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## Sulimo (May 16, 2002)

Well, overall I thought it was OK. A bit better than Episode I but not as good as Episodes 4-6.

Interestingly, I thought most of the really bits of dialog appear in the trailers.

I'm definitely not a fan of Yoda's fighting skills.

Sam Jackson got the one cool line.

Its definitely reinforced my view that Lucas should stick to being the story dude and get others to write the script and direct.

One strange thing was actually that blown away by the action stuff. Maybe I'm just too jaded these days. It was especially strange I was blown away by the Clone War trailer.


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## Wulf Ratbane (May 16, 2002)

Sulimo said:
			
		

> *I'm definitely not a fan of Yoda's fighting skills.*




Come on, now you're just talking crazy.

That was the most memorable part of the movie. This is the scene that has you walking out of the theatre on a high note, to head out and tell the world, "I just saw the movie and it is AWESOME!"

Of course that feeling fades upon reflection but, hey, give the fella his due.

Nimble little minx...


Wulf


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## Sulimo (May 16, 2002)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Come on, now you're just talking crazy.
> 
> ...




I guess I just thought the way he jumped around was a little silly.


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## Rashak Mani (May 16, 2002)

I want the opinion of someone who like me Didnt like Episode I !   Which was very boring... 

  Most of you seem would love anything made by George Lucas... I want a better founded opinion.... anyone in this thread didnt like Episode I ?


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## Wolfspider (May 16, 2002)

Yeah, I've heard several people negatively comment on the "silly bouncing green ball of Yoda," although most people seem to have enjoyed the scene.  Everyone seems to love the last half-hour or so, but the first hour and a half seem to be glossed over.  Hmmmm.

Anyway, the prognosis here seems to be overwhelmingly positive, with a couple exceptions (and an interesting theory by Wulf).

I'm off to read the Salon.com review right now.  It's called "In space, no one can hear you groan" with the subtitle "The soul-deadening string of clichés that is "Attack of the Clones" must immediately be shot beyond Pluto where it can do no harm."

Just for kicks, here's the first paragraph:



> "Star Wars: Episode II -- Attack of the Clones" could be the worst movie ever made and still it would have the faithful rallying around the Lucas franchise, brandishing their light sabers like bayonets. Against that army of formidable opponents, it seems like a waste of breath to point out the flaws in a movie that isn't really a movie at all: truncated sequences that don't string together into a coherent story, dialogue that may as well have been cobbled together out of pieces of wood instead of words, love scenes shot to look like douche commercials. At this point, George Lucas can put whatever he wants on-screen and get away with it. He has become the ruler of the universe, at least the one between his ears; his wish is our command.




Sounds like a fun read.


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## KDLadage (May 16, 2002)

Rating: 8/10 -- I place it right after EMPIRE for quality.


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## Rashak Mani (May 16, 2002)

Very good review Wolfspider... (i havent seen the movie yet thou) ... seems right on to what I expect to see...


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## Desdichado (May 16, 2002)

I didn't particularly like Episode I.  When I saw it in the theatres I thought it ROCKED, and the same thing when I saw it the second time, although I was impatient by this point with the Schmi/Annakin scenes and some of the stilted dialogue.   Now, I can hardly watch the whole thing all the way through.  I haven't picked it up on DVD yet, but I probably won't watch it again until I do, so I can skip past the scenes that are almost painful to watch for me now.

Then again, I haven't seen Episode II yet either!  I have tickets for two showings today, though!   I imagine I'll love it today.  After seeing it a few more times, who can say?


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## King_Stannis (May 16, 2002)

quote from salon.com:

Star Wars: Episode II -- Attack of the Clones" could be the worst movie ever made and still it would have the faithful rallying around the Lucas franchise, brandishing their light sabers like bayonets. ...At this point, George Lucas can put whatever he wants on-screen and get away with it. He has become the ruler of the universe, at least the one between his ears; his wish is our command. 
=============================================

man, elitists at salon.com? what's this world coming to? 

read the review, and the reviewer is - a) NOT a star wars fan; and b) a woman. sorry, but with those two items together this movie probably had no shot (with her).

and for anyone who is looking at these reviews and wavering, you should dig up the thread from last week (the title was akin to "something to keep in mind when reading reviews of episode II"). it was a NY Times review of "The Empire Strikes Back", and it gave the movie a terrible review. 

star wars is a phenomenon that transcends movie reviews by professionals. they are irrelevent. these movies go right to the fans, unfiltered. and it seems their opinions are worth much more than any reviewer's.


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## Joker (May 16, 2002)

I don't get it, now mind you I haven't seen it yet so I don't know what really happens and I'm probably going to get sniped by some SW-fan(atic), but as I've heard there is a large battle at the end.  Why?  Why would they have such close combat?  I mean, even in the present, most countries that can afford it just cruise-missile their "enemies" from afar.

So why do they put their troops at such risks.  Wouldn't it be more like:

Leuitenant:  "Emperor, there are four-hundred Jedi's waiting on the surface below calling us out to fight and saying that your mom is a yeti."

Chief guy:  "Nuke em."

Leuitenant:  "Done sir, shall we continue with the next planet."

Granted, I haven't seen the movie so I don't know jack.  Plus, no-one wants to see a war of attrition or inter-galactic missiles flying back and forth.  We wanna see killin!

Tata.


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## Desdichado (May 16, 2002)

Joker, I think the main reason that isn't done is because Star Wars isn't science fiction: it's pseudo-scientific fantasy with a heavy reliance on mythic archetypes.  Without the big land battles and all that, it just wouldn't be able to pull off it's genre effectively.


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## Joker (May 16, 2002)

I thought so, it's like Starship Troopers.  Not really adhering to the logic, but kick-ass action nonetheless.

Tata.


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## EricNoah (May 16, 2002)

I saw it last night, enjoyed it quite a bit.  I will be curious how a 2nd viewing holds up, but yes there will be a 2nd viewing.    The acting was mostly lusterless, and that's the director's fault.  And some of the writing was not so good.  But none of it was as horrible as I'd built it up in my mind, and the action payoffs were worth it.  As was the Anakin/Tusken scene, at least for me.


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## Sulimo (May 16, 2002)

and seeing Natalie looking her best


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## Desdichado (May 16, 2002)

Not having seen the movie, there may be logical reasons why the land battle is essential, though.  Sure, orbital bombing is great for the genocidal approach to warfare, but not for the "conquering the population" mindset.

And, in Starship Troopers, they needed the infantry because the insects lived below ground and were thus mostly immune to orbital bombing.


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## Joker (May 16, 2002)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> *Not having seen the movie, there may be logical reasons why the land battle is essential, though.  Sure, orbital bombing is great for the genocidal approach to warfare, but not for the "conquering the population" mindset.
> 
> And, in Starship Troopers, they needed the infantry because the insects lived below ground and were thus mostly immune to orbital bombing. *




You're right, and just to clarify I was talking about the movie, not the book.  Like apples and oranges.

I'm gonna leave now as I think it's bad for my health to take a SW-thread off topic.

Tata.


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## Sulimo (May 16, 2002)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> *Not having seen the movie, there may be logical reasons why the land battle is essential, though.  Sure, orbital bombing is great for the genocidal approach to warfare, but not for the "conquering the population" mindset. *




There is some logic behind the land battle I think. Now in Episode III it would be a little harder to justify.


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## King_Stannis (May 16, 2002)

Actually, reading that review at salon.com started to get me thinking. I think that many reviewers are angry that their quasi-influential status is voided for the star wars phenomenon. Many of the reviewers get downright nasty when describing the “mind numbed lucas-robots” that go to these movies, despite the reviewer’s finely crafted negative review (the gall!). I really think for a lot of the professional reviewers they purposely look for things to snipe at when going to see these movies (especially these last two), because they have nothing but contempt in their heart for the fans of the series. Almost every negative review of these last two movies has taken swipes at the fans and what sheep they are, while then going on to give an “objective” review. They probably have figured out that no one is really listening to them when it comes to these movies anyways, so they might as well write a nasty review – which is so much more fun for them. As I alluded to earlier, professional reviewers are superfluous when it comes to the star wars series, kind of like a third nipple. The fan opinion is what matters.


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## Rashak Mani (May 16, 2002)

What has been lacking in this debate is the primary Question of:

  Are the Episode I and II up to the same levels/style as the original Star Wars ?  In my opinion even before seeing Episode II I would give a resounding NO.  

   So maybe its not fair to compare... but even then it seems if it were a COMPLETELY NEW Sci-Fi series it wouldnt get half the positive reviews and packed theatres it gets now.  Without the Star Wars name on it do you think it would be getting this much attention ?  By themselves they are very very weak storywise and dont even get close to what made the original stuff so good.

    I loved Star Wars and I will see the movie because I want to know the Background and history of the OTHER Star Wars... if Anakin wasnt Darth Vader to be most "fans" wouldnt give a dam about him.... its not the story of Episode I or II most people yearn for... its the getting to know the past of Episodes 4 to 6.

   Lucas is getting old and should either retire or drop his CGI mania behind him and make real movies again.  Lousy acting in the movies is really spoiling it for mid way fanatics or normal people.

    (Yes some people do actually love it as is... but most who love it are doing it for reasons beyond the movie itself... )


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## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (May 16, 2002)

If someone wants more info on Dooku and doesn`t want to pick the book, here is a scene that was cut from the script:

"The bronze bust of an elderly bearded man stands among a line of other busts of Jedi in the Archive Room. Obi-Wan stops in front of it, studying the striking features of the chiseled face. On the walls, lighted computer panels seemed to stretch into infinity. Farther along the room in the background, five Jedi are seated at tables, studying archival material.

Obi-Wan studies the bust for a few moments before Madame JOCASTA NU, the Jedi Archivist, comes up and stands next to him. She is an elderly, frail-looking human Jedi dressed in a yellow and brown robe. She’s tough as old boots and smart as a whip. 

JOCASTA NU: Did you call for assistance? 
OBI-WAN: (slightly distracted) Yes…yes, I did. 

Jocasta Nu notices the bust Obi-Wan’s studying. 

JOCASTA NU: He has a powerful face, doesn’t he? He was one of the most brilliant Jedi I have had the privilege of knowing. 
OBI-WAN: I never understood why he quit. Only twenty Jedi have ever left the Order.
JOCASTA NU: (sigh) “The Lost Twenty”… Count Dooku was the most recent and the most painful. No one likes to talk about it. His leaving was a great loss to the order.
OBI-WAN: What happened? 
JOCASTA NU: Well…Count Dooku was always a bit out of step with the decisions of the Council. Much like your old Master, Qui-Gon Jinn. 
OBI-WAN: (surprised) Really? 
JOCASTA NU: Oh, yes. They were alike in many ways. Very individual thinkers, idealists… 

Jocasta Nu gazes at the bust as she speaks. 

JOCASTA NU: He was always striving to become a more powerful Jedi. He wanted to be the best. With a lightsaber, in the old style of fencing, he had no match. His knowledge of the Force was…unique. (beat) In the end, I think he left because he lost faith in the Republic. He believed that politics were corrupt, and he felt the Jedi betrayed themselves by serving the politicians. He always had very high expectations of government. He disappeared for nine or ten years, then just showed up recently as the head of the separatist movement.
OBI-WAN: It’s very interesting. I’m not sure I completely understand.
JOCASTA NU: Well, I’m sure you didn’t call me over here for a history lesson. Are you having a problem, Master Kenobi?"


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## King_Stannis (May 16, 2002)

Rashak Mani said:
			
		

> *
> 
> ....Lucas is getting old and should either retire or drop his CGI mania behind him and make real movies again.  Lousy acting in the movies is really spoiling it for mid way fanatics or normal people...*




you know, you can't blame everything on the director. is he supposed to fire natalie portman in the middle of a shoot because he can't coax an academy award winning performance? besides, ewan mcgregor is getting good marks for his obi-wan portrayal. i suppose that had nothing to do with lucas, though. just the bad stuff, right? 

man, i never knew we had so many acting coaches going to the movie these days?


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## Bonedagger (May 16, 2002)

Ok... Here we go.

I haven't seen the 2nd episode yet but I have a suspection about how it's going to be. A lot of beautiful special effects but the storie will probably just be old stories retold with a science fiction touch and most of the time the computeranimated characters will be better actors than the real persons (I am saying "most of the time" 'cause I still have hopes that Samuel will pull it up a bit). I don't really blame the actors but Lucas. Hey. The guy is one of the best to special effects and making beautiful computergenerated scenes but beyond that I can't really remember anything noteworthy in a positive sense. The scenes will be enough for me to go and see the movie though but I don't regard Lucas as a great moviemaker. I regard him as a great special effects maker. Otherwise a waste of good resources. 

(Note: As for first episode. If the scene when Anakins mother tells how Anakin was born in a virginebirth hadn't been followed up by a cool podrace scene or something similar I would have feelt a fool for wasting time watching the movie. )

I can't keep wonder.. Did Lucas grow up with old religious texts as his main inspiration. 

....The only thing in the commercials that didn't look like a copy of another movie or just bad acting in cool costumes was the scene with Feet and the warscene (Didn't get a good look at that spaceship chase through the astroids). Please tell me there are many more like these.

Sorry if I have offended anybodys feeelings, know there are many who adore Lucas on this board, but I just felt like getting it out.


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## R.X.DIEM (May 16, 2002)

*Rashak Mani?*

I suppose you thought the Brittney Spears movie "Cross roads" was great.  Please go see EP2 before you judge it.            "Hesitancy in judgment is the only true mark of the thinker."......Dagobert D. Runes


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## Dr Midnight (May 16, 2002)

I'm moving my review over here as the other thread is getting buried. 

I will not spoil. 

Just got back, too jazzed to sleep. Can't deny the acting is poor almost without exception, but as joshua said- the last half hour is worth the $9. 

Now that the fans' standards are lowered (or at least repositioned) after Ep I, I think we'll hear far less complaining. People now know what to BEGIN to expect. Moreover, we'll hear far less complaining because this film is much better. I had a good crowd... yelling, whooping, cheering, laughing together. We all roared when the Matrix trailer came on. When the 20th Century Fox logo came on, we roared like morons. We silenced for the "A long time ago...", then exploded when the logo blasted us back to where we wanted to be. 

George had us slogging through some long-winded political poop, and the love story drew more groans than even Jar Jar's screen time. However, I was entertained beyond what I expect of movies these days. I was grinning most of the time... and when (you'll know it when you see it) happens during the last 20 minutes, I shrieked and clapped with CHILDLIKE GLEE, along with the audience. You will too, I swear it. Say what you will about Senior Lucas and his toy-hawking habits, but I loved it. I just loved it.


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## Rashak Mani (May 16, 2002)

I´m with Bonedagger on this... 

   King Stannis so it might be unfair to Lucas... but beyond bad acting... there are many other Weak parts in the new episodes:

   Lousy Story
   Bad Plot
   Jar Jar Binks
   Silly Ideas like Force being genetic and the virgin birth thing... 
   Over use of Computer Graphics 
   Jar Jar Binks
   Music wasnt up to standard...

   Did I mention Jar Jar Binks ?

   When somebody says So and So movie sequel number 2 and 3 was lousy nobody complains... but if its Star Wars its untouchable ?   It seems its merits are more of being an action movie... not good scifi.  Eye catcher and so. 

   Treat Attack of the Clones (ironic title in my view) as a stand by itself movie and it wont stand by itself...


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## Wulf Ratbane (May 16, 2002)

King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *besides, ewan mcgregor is getting good marks for his obi-wan portrayal. i suppose that had nothing to do with lucas, though. just the bad stuff, right? *




Well, to be blunt, that's it exactly. Ewan McGregor is widely lauded for his skill. He's extremely talented and versatile and he pretty much shines in anything he does.

I just saw a buddy of mine this morning, a super fan. His advance screening wasn't enough, apparently, and he still went to see it again last night. I asked him how it was, expecting him to gush again..


I was surprised (surprise turning to smugness, now) to hear him say it was much worse the second time through-- he found it difficult for him to sit through the bad parts (bad acting, bad story) to get to the payoff of the action scenes.

I definitely don't think it is as bad as the "bad reviews" are claiming, but it isn't great; it is a redemption of sorts from Ep1 for Lucas, but it still falls short of IV/V/VI. I would place it just behind ROTJ-- actually a close tie, but ROTJ still has nostalgia behind it.

I think if Lucas had come at me with Ep2 after 20 years-- instead of the assault on the mythology he struck us with in Ep1-- I would still be a very happy fan.


Wulf


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## EricNoah (May 16, 2002)

King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> you know, you can't blame everything on the director. is he supposed to fire natalie portman in the middle of a shoot because he can't coax an academy award winning performance? besides, ewan mcgregor is getting good marks for his obi-wan portrayal. i suppose that had nothing to do with lucas, though. just the bad stuff, right?
> 
> man, i never knew we had so many acting coaches going to the movie these days? *




Ok, well look at it this way.  By all accounts both Portman and Christiansen (sp?) are fine actors and have delivered solid performances in other films.  When they don't do so here -- again and again and again throughout the film -- there's only one place (in my mind) to place the blame -- with the guy who is saying "OK, that's good enough" when in fact it isn't.  

When a guy spares no expense in technology and creativity, but skimps on a basic thing like acting, you get a look at his priorities.  

And btw I did enjoy the film, but it was despite the writing and acting.  Whereas in LotR, for instance, the writing and acting were near cream-of-the-crop quality -- I think Lucas can set his sight higher next time.


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## R.X.DIEM (May 16, 2002)

Bonedagger said:
			
		

> *Did Lucas grow up with old religious texts as his main inspiration.  *



I believe he is a very spiritual person and a good friend of the late Joseph Campbell.


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## Wolfspider (May 16, 2002)

King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *Actually, reading that review at salon.com started to get me thinking. I think that many reviewers are angry that their quasi-influential status is voided for the star wars phenomenon. Many of the reviewers get downright nasty when describing the “mind numbed lucas-robots” that go to these movies, despite the reviewer’s finely crafted negative review (the gall!). I really think for a lot of the professional reviewers they purposely look for things to snipe at when going to see these movies (especially these last two), because they have nothing but contempt in their heart for the fans of the series. Almost every negative review of these last two movies has taken swipes at the fans and what sheep they are, while then going on to give an “objective” review. They probably have figured out that no one is really listening to them when it comes to these movies anyways, so they might as well write a nasty review – which is so much more fun for them. As I alluded to earlier, professional reviewers are superfluous when it comes to the star wars series, kind of like a third nipple. The fan opinion is what matters. *




Or maybe these critics are really making a valid point?


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## Black Omega (May 16, 2002)

King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *Actually, reading that review at salon.com started to get me thinking. I think that many reviewers are angry that their quasi-influential status is voided for the star wars phenomenon. Many of the reviewers get downright nasty when describing the “mind numbed lucas-robotsEthat go to these movies, despite the reviewer’s finely crafted negative review (the gall!). I really think for a lot of the professional reviewers they purposely look for things to snipe at when going to see these movies (especially these last two), because they have nothing but contempt in their heart for the fans of the series. Almost every negative review of these last two movies has taken swipes at the fans and what sheep they are, while then going on to give an “objectiveEreview. They probably have figured out that no one is really listening to them when it comes to these movies anyways, so they might as well write a nasty review Ewhich is so much more fun for them. As I alluded to earlier, professional reviewers are superfluous when it comes to the star wars series, kind of like a third nipple. The fan opinion is what matters. *




Just curious, but aside from salon.com (I presume) what reviews have you found that dissed SW fans?  I've been reading reviews while trying to decide if I want to see Ep II or not and so far I've not found a review that says anything bad about the fans of the series.


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## Wolfspider (May 16, 2002)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Ok, well look at it this way.  By all accounts both Portman and Christiansen (sp?) are fine actors and have delivered solid performances in other films.  When they don't do so here -- again and again and again throughout the film -- there's only one place (in my mind) to place the blame -- with the guy who is saying "OK, that's good enough" when in fact it isn't.
> 
> ...




I agree with Mr. Noah here.  The buck stops at the director.  It's his responsibility to ensure the quality of the acting.  Many critics have pointed out that it's downright difficult to act when you're surrounded by so many blue screens to allow for the massive special effects surrounding the actors.


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## Rashak Mani (May 16, 2002)

Eric Noah very well said... those arent first time freshmen... but experienced actors most.  Only Ewan shines thru thou...  

At least I know episode II will be better than episode I ... that much is predictable... cant get worse than the first one...


   Before attacking Lucas anymore I do wonder how much of this lousy film aspects are due to Lucas helpers/aides... commercial intrests and Studio demands... or is Lucas tightly in control of everything and therefore the only one responsible for staining his own movie series ?


As for other sites:  www.imdb.com site    Rated the original Star Wars series  8.8 / 8.7 / 8.1    Episode I got 6.9 (too high I think) and Ep. II hasnt yet gotten enough votes...


----------



## Wolfspider (May 16, 2002)

Black Omega said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Just curious, but aside from salon.com (I presume) what reviews have you found that dissed SW fans?  I've been reading reviews while trying to decide if I want to see Ep II or not and so far I've not found a review that says anything bad about the fans of the series. *




I just want to point out that the Salon.com article does NOT diss Star Wars fans.  It just points out that they are such devout fans of the series that they will ignore many flaws of the films--an observation I think it right on target.  Isn't that true of any group of fans?

Anyway, the "mind-numbed lucas robots" comment that King Stannis quotes is nowhere to be found in the Salon review, so it is probably an overgeneralization of his own creation (and thus somewhat misleading when it's quoted in the context of his post).


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## King_Stannis (May 16, 2002)

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I just want to point out that the Salon.com article does NOT diss Star Wars fans.  It just points out that they are such devout fans of the serious that they will ignore many flaws of the films--an observation I think it right on target.  Isn't that true of any group of fans?
> 
> Anyway, the "mind-numbed lucas robots" comment that King Stannis quotes is nowhere to be found in the Salon review, so it must be of his own creation (and thus somewhat misleading when it's quoted in the context of his post). *




no, the reviewer did not say "mind numbed robots", but in my opinion with reviews such as that, the implication is there. in essence, the reviewers are saying that lucas' SW fans are too stupid to heed the advice of an enlightened viewer and will go to the movie despite the warning given. 

but hey, you know what, go and see it yourself. or don't. as of 10:30 tonight, i don't give a damn what you lucas haters think, especially when that logo pops up. 

or wait, maybe i'll just scalp my ticket because some wanker over at salon.com said it's a bad movie.


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## R.X.DIEM (May 16, 2002)

*Sad but true*



			
				King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *
> but hey, you know what, go and see it yourself. or don't. as of 10:30 tonight, i don't give a damn what you lucas haters think, especially when that logo pops up.
> 
> or wait, maybe i'll just scalp my ticket because some wanker over at salon.com said it's a bad movie. *



The Haters will hate and the wankers will wank. I can wait to see it, but as a protest, just to show Lucas that I am serious about the movies I watch . I think I'll poke out one of my eyes right before the movie! Yea, That will show him! He owes me the thrill of a lifetime! Yea! After hearing about me he'll make sure that he never Lets me down! Yea! and he'll probably want to give me one of his own eyes, Because he obviously doesn't use both of his! Yea! and then he'll make a movie about how I showed him that he owes Me the best movie experience in the known universe!!!! Boy I can't wait! but I do need SOME INPUT, which EYE should I loose?  Please let me known you Hummble opinions ........Eeny Meeny Miney moe


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## Wolfspider (May 16, 2002)

King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> no, the reviewer did not say "mind numbed robots", but in my opinion with reviews such as that, the implication is there. in essence, the reviewers are saying that lucas' SW fans are too stupid to heed the advice of an enlightened viewer and will go to the movie despite the warning given. *




I think you're still putting words in the reviewer's mouth.

*



			but hey, you know what, go and see it yourself. or don't. as of 10:30 tonight, i don't give a damn what you lucas haters think, especially when that logo pops up.
		
Click to expand...


*
As I've said many times before, I don't hate George Lucas or Star Wars.  My life would be much diminished if there were no Star Wars.  One of my earliest true memories is of going to see Star Wars in Chicago with my best friend Stavaros when I was six years old--the same age my daughter is now.  

Can't a person be a fan AND a critic?  I love poetry, but I still know when a poem has a flaw or isn't as tightly constructed as it could be.  Does that mean I'm a poem-hater?  I love a lot of things, but I love them with both my eyes wide open and searching.


----------



## KDLadage (May 16, 2002)

> I´m with Bonedagger on this...
> 
> King Stannis so it might be unfair to Lucas... but beyond bad acting... there are many other Weak parts in the new episodes:




OK... lets look at it:



> Lousy Story



How so? The stories presented in Eps I and II are no less plausable, manipulated, coerced or forced onto the screen in all of thier gaudy-glory than the stories presented in Eps IV, V and VI. As a Star Wars fan (not a fanatic, but I like the movies) I am no so fan-boyed out that I fail to realize that Eps IV, V and VI were just as childish, niave, campy and 2-dimentional (in a HERCULES meets FLASH GORDON sort of way).

But in Star Wars, that would be half of the appeal.



> Bad Plot



Again, see my retort tot he above point. Same thing applies. The plot in Eps I and IOI is no worse than the plots in Eps IV, V and VI. Most people have a higher regard for the plots in the original movies becuase they were barely out of diapers when they saw them. Look at them as stand-alone movies -- on their own merits -- devoid of childhood inocent memories and you will see that thety are all just B-Movies with large budgets.



> Jar Jar Binks



Man, does this guy get shafted at every turn. I thought the character was annoying. Then again, I thought the character of C3PO was annoying in every film too. But they both serve thier purposes. Jar Jar was a clown in Ep. I, in Ep. II, he is a tragic and pitiable character that unknowingly hammers the final nail in the coffin of the Republic...



> Silly Ideas like Force being genetic and the virgin birth thing...



Keep in mind that Lucas uses many epic, legendary themes in all of his story-telling. According to legend, one prominant religious leader was born of an Elephant impergnated by a Lotus Flower... this was/is believed as dogmatic truth by millions. The virgin birth, I give you, was odd; and I would have prefered to have left the Force as a mystical and magical (instead of a scientific) thing. But it all fits in witht eh same campy feel of the entire series.



> Over use of Computer Graphics



Six of one, half dozen fo the the other. I could care less what tool is used to get the look and feel that are desired. If you want to hammer in your nails with a pipe-wrench, as long as they are all in place and look decent, I don't care. I fail to see how the man's choice of tool has anything at all to do with the final product. I all looked very good to me.



> Jar Jar Binks



This again!?



> Music wasnt up to standard...



In Ep. I, I will grant you that I felt the music was a bit sub-par (at least as far as Star Wars music goes). But it was not too distracting. Ep. II, however, I thought was excellent. The hint of the Imperial Theme was about perfect.



> Did I mention Jar Jar Binks ?



Too many times, yes.



> When somebody says So and So movie sequel number 2 and 3 was lousy nobody complains... but if its Star Wars its untouchable ?



Not at all. You don;t have to like it. But I think most people that are going to lambast something had better be able to back it up. 



> It seems its merits are more of being an action movie... not good scifi.  Eye catcher and so.



its merits are being a good Star Wars film. Star Wars is not even really Sci-Fi. It is Space-Fantasy. It is a Fantasy film set tot he backdrop of Science Fiction. It is a B-Movie with a big budget.



> Treat Attack of the Clones (ironic title in my view) as a stand by itself movie and it wont stand by itself...



In my opinion, none of the Star Wars films do. But they are all fun. ANd that is all I ask of my ticket price -- entertain me. I was entertained. Well more than my ticket price even. With all 5 of the current installments.


----------



## EricNoah (May 16, 2002)

There's a big difference between "hating Lucas" and not liking one of his films.  I think I liked Lucas better, though, when he put someone else in charge of the writing and directing.


----------



## King_Stannis (May 16, 2002)

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> ..Can't a person be a fan AND a critic?  I love poetry, but I still know when a poem has a flaw or isn't as tightly constructed as it could be.  Does that mean I'm a poem-hater?  I love a lot of things, but I love them with both my eyes wide open and searching. *




of course you can, but you've been beating this drum for months now - before you've actually seen the movie! if you're any fan at all, don't you think lucas deserves the benefit of the doubt to walk in with at the very least a blank slate? even if you hated episode I, that's still 3 good movies vs 1 bad one - in your opinion. after all, he's not forcing you to see this movie at gunpoint! if his creation has brought you so much joy over the years, why are you attacking his creation before seeing it? why are you lending credence to reviewers who could care less about the series and probably secretly despise it's fans over the opinions of those very same fans? and yes, i believe what i said earlier - a lot of professional reviewers look down on star wars and it's fans because they've made their opionions irrelevent when it comes to this movie series.

as i said, do what you will. if you don't go, i have a suspicion you're going to miss a pretty good film.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (May 16, 2002)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *There's a big difference between "hating Lucas" and not liking one of his films.  I think I liked Lucas better, though, when he put someone else in charge of the writing and directing. *




Heh... I'm of a similar mind, but almost from the opposite side. 

I dislike Lucas but I am predisposed to liking his movies-- despite the mammoth marketing juggernaut I despise. I'm a little to close to the fire in my professional life, I guess, to have much respect for Lucas(film).


Wulf


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## Wild Karrde (May 16, 2002)

*It rocks*

Let me start by saying that yes I am a StarWars fan which means anyone who doens't like the series or enjoys tearing things down can go ahead and disregard this review.

I keep hearing people complain about the acting.  I guess I would like someone to find me an outstanding performance in any of the Star Wars movies.  Let's face it, the Star Wars films are a story driven movie and acting has always come third to the story and effects.  It's not the Godfather.  Never has been, never will be.

With that said I think it's fantastic.  I went in with high expectations due to the trailers I have seen. and I came out of thier blown away.  And not just because of the last half of the movie as I hear so many people saying.  I thought all of the new eye candy was great throughout the whole movie.  The scenes and story I found great...yes even the first half of the movie.

As far as I'm concerened Lucas was kinda hosed from the get-go.  If he focues on the love story too intensely everyone would have thrown a fit.  So I think he touched on it in away that kept action fans into the movie yet didn't go the route of Titanic.

I'm really not sure what my favorite part of the movie was.  I was thrilled by the whole thing.  But I did enjoy the way it has these subtle nods to westerns.

I'm a big john Wayne and western movie fan in general (that should tell you what I know about acting...next to nothing, lol).  And I loved the way they did things like focus on Mace's boots as he walks towards the arena.  And they way they throw there cloaks over there sides like they're clearing thier drawing hands (similar to what Qui-Gon and Obi do when they first start to battle with Darth Maul).  I like that gunslinger type of mentality.

I did enjoy EP1 but this one actually felt like Star Wars.  It captured the flavor of the original trilogy better.  When I came out of that theatre I felt like I had seen a Star Wars movie and not a fantasy flick using Star wars characters...the tone was just right to me.  Do yourself a favor and go see it.  I think you'll be surprised.  See it yourslef and then judge.


----------



## Wolfspider (May 16, 2002)

King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> of course you can, but you've been beating this drum for months now - before you've actually seen the movie! if you're any fan at all, don't you think lucas deserves the benefit of the doubt to walk in with at the very least a blank slate? even if you hated episode I, that's still 3 good movies vs 1 bad one - in your opinion. after all, he's not forcing you to see this movie at gunpoint! if his creation has brought you so much joy over the years, why are you attacking his creation before seeing it? why are you lending credence to reviewers who could care less about the series and probably secretly despise it's fans over the opinions of those very same fans? and yes, i believe what i said earlier - a lot of professional reviewers look down on star wars and it's fans because they've made their opionions irrelevent when it comes to this movie series.
> 
> as i said, do what you will. if you don't go, i have a suspicion you're going to miss a pretty good film. *




I don't recall attacking Episode II.  Please point out a post where I've said that Episode II is a bad film.  I haven't even seen it yet--to say it was bad would be silly.  I'm merely said that, because of the poor quality of Episode I, I was a bit leery of seeing Episode II and wanted to make sure that I read a lot of reviews about it before making my decision whether or not to see it.

William Wordsworth wrote some of the greatest poetry in the English language during the first part of his life.  During the latter half, he wrote some of the worst.  Past artistic performance is no guarantee of the quality of the work you do later on--although many people do rest on their laurels.


----------



## King_Stannis (May 16, 2002)

*Re: It rocks*



			
				Wild Karrde said:
			
		

> *Let me start by saying that yes I am a StarWars fan which means anyone who doens't like the series or enjoys tearing things down can go ahead and disregard this review.
> 
> I keep hearing people complain about the acting.  I guess I would like someone to find me an outstanding performance in any of the Star Wars movies.  Let's face it, the Star Wars films are a story driven movie and acting has always come third to the story and effects.  It's not the Godfather.  Never has been, never will be...
> 
> *




thank you. i wanted to make this point, but you've done so more eloquently than i.


----------



## Wolfspider (May 16, 2002)

Well, I'm of the opinion that acting and character and plot are important parts of any film, and I agree with one reviewer that these elements are now seen as "antique" by many film makers.  While I agree that the acting in the first Star Wars trilogy wasn't great, it was adequate.  Some performances were good, others poor, but in general everyone seemed competent.  Not so with Episode I and--if some reviews are to be believed--Episode II.

I've come to the point in my life where eye candy just doesn't satisfy me much any more if there isn't something more to back it up.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (May 16, 2002)

*Re: It rocks*



			
				Wild Karrde said:
			
		

> *Let me start by saying that yes I am a StarWars fan which means anyone who doens't like the series or enjoys tearing things down can go ahead and disregard this review.
> 
> I did enjoy EP1... *




Ok, NOW we can go ahead and disregard this review.


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 16, 2002)

George Lucas is to SW what Brannon Braga is to Star Trek. Good ideas, bad writing.

That said, the writing is just as lousy in the old movies. I say those as someone who didn't saw his first Star Wars movie until I was 12 and I had just seen Jurassic Park then.

I simply didn't like it. I didn't hate it, but it just didn't have the things that I wanted in a movie (a good story (the weirder the better) and some 'kewl' factor (I was twelve, although I don't turn it down now any less )). I saw ESB and RotJ later and liked them much better, ESB being one of my fav movies ever, but if it wasn't for the talent of Alec Guinness and the charisma of Harrison Ford, it would be just BAD.

Now Ep1 had some problems (and is currently my least fav SW movie) and so did Ep2 (which I saw a week ago), but the actual plot of the new movies is much thicker than of the originals. The biggest 'twist' in the OT is Han's freezing.

I rewatched ANH with my dad about an year ago. He saw it during the original release of it here in Iceland back in 78 (he was in late 20s then) and loved it, but he never saw any of the other movies until ep1. All he said was that he'd remembered it as better.


----------



## Wolfspider (May 16, 2002)

mastermind said:
			
		

> *The biggest 'twist' in the OT is Han's freezing.*




Uhhh.... "Luke, I AM your father."


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## Holy Bovine (May 16, 2002)

Joker said:
			
		

> *I don't get it, now mind you I haven't seen it yet so I don't know what really happens and I'm probably going to get sniped by some SW-fan(atic), but as I've heard there is a large battle at the end.  Why?  Why would they have such close combat?  I mean, even in the present, most countries that can afford it just cruise-missile their "enemies" from afar.
> 
> So why do they put their troops at such risks.  Wouldn't it be more like:
> 
> ...




Because battles are won by men fighting hand to hand with personal weapons.  Launching nuclear missles and such at each other is fine but if you actually _ want to occupy and use the areas your enemy holds_ then you must eliminate the enemy while keeping the infrastructure intact.

That's actually a paraphrased quote from an old sci-fi writer. He wrote that in 1955 but it is still relevant today.


Anyway as to the movie I haven't seen it yet but some friends of mine won tickets to the first screening here in London and were very pleased with the film.   Some groaner lines (like all the rest of the movies haven't had those) but watching Anakin fall so steadily towards the dark side is very well handled (in their opinion - which I would value far and above any critic trying to be 'edgy' and get more visits to their website  )

Also they felt that the chemisrty between Portman and Haydensen was very good and the interaction between ObiWan and Anakin was the strongest point of the movie.

They rated it just below Empire in ranking (basically tied with New Hope).  They are both big Star Wars fans but were a little dissapointed with Phantom Menace.  Myself, i won't be seeing it unless I get free tickets or when it comes to the $4.00 theater.


----------



## Ristamar (May 16, 2002)

I saw a midnight showing, and I thought the movie was absolutely wonderful.  I paid to see a _Star Wars_ movie, and I definitely saw a _Star Wars_ movie. 

I'll post a few comments now (some SPOILERS, obviously), and perhaps add a few things to it later: 

- Temuera Morrison delivered a solid performance as Jango Fett, making the character more than just a faceless bounty hunter with kick-ass body armor. 

- Though his role was small, Jack Thompson (as Cliegg Lars) was cool and, IMO, very believable. 

- I liked McGregor's portrayal of Obi-Wan.  The older, wiser Kenobi is better in this film (not that he was bad in Episode I).  I'm interested to see how he evolves in Episode III and eventually becomes the old hermit 'Ben Kenobi,' carefully watching over young Luke from afar.  I know what happens, in general, in regard to the story...  I simply think it'll be interesting to see the final stage of the "young" pre-Episode IV Obi-Wan. 

- While the acting and dialogue may not be Oscar caliber, I didn't find it to be as stilted and cheesy as some reviewers claim.  Of course, most Star Wars fans are more forgiving than casual viewers, though this holds true with any franchise -- for example, I thought some of the lines in _Fellowship of the Ring_ were a bit awkward, particularly from Legolas and Gimli or during the infamous Galadriel scene, though I have friends who found no fault with said performances. 

NOTE:  I'm not trying to start a Star Wars vs. LotR discussion, as I immensely enjoy them both.  The prequels and the 'Rings simply have a certain commonality (very large fan base, highly anticipated, high expectations, etc.), which is why I used it as an example. 

- The romance is awkward, as many people have pointed out.  The doesn't mean it's awful.  Realistically, it should be awkward.  It involves two young people who had to grow up too much, too fast, and apparently, this is the first REAL relationship either has fallen into.  In fact, it seems painfully obvious in many ways that Anakin still hasn't grown up, which undoubtedly contributes to his decent to the Dark Side. 

- Romance aside, I thought Christensen did a good job portraying Anakin's arrogance, restlessness, anger, and confusion.  Could it have been better?  Perhaps.  But it was far from terrible. 

- Everyone catch Qui-Gon's "No, Anakin, No!" when he started slaughtering the Tusken raiders?  A nice touch. 

- Jar Jar's screen time was minimal, and the brief time he was given really didn't bother me.  It was almost pitiful seeing how easily Palpatine played off his slow wit and need for approval. 

- 3PO had some lines which could definitely be chalked up as serious groaners.  However, I still found myself genuinely laughing.  I'm not sure how well his hijinks will hold up in repeat viewings (or if they would've worked in any other setting besides Star Wars), but for the initial screening, IMO, they did work. 

- Artoo still rules the school behind the scenes, mostly unbeknownst to the frontline players.  Assuming his unrecognized heroics continue in Episode III, IMO, he is the glue of the entire Star Wars saga.  I love it. 

- Though Christopher Lee's role wasn't quite as large as I had hoped, at least it appears he will be returning in Episode III.  Sounds good to me.  Oh, and I liked the curved saber handle. 

- Mace Windu's flip off the ledge to avoid Fett's flamethrower was totally money.  While decending, he still had time to discard his singed robes and deflect a few blaster bolts.  Too sweet. 

- I can't say much about Yoda that hasn't been said already.  Wow.  Despite what people think of this film, that fight sequence will easily become one of the all-time greatest Star Wars moments.  It was also interesting to see him take up the role of battlefield general. 

This weekend, I'll be watching it again, but this time through digital projection.  I'm anxious to see how it looks.


----------



## Holy Bovine (May 16, 2002)

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Uhhh.... "Luke, I AM your father."
> 
> *




Actually it was 

"No, Luke *I* am your father."

Emphasis on 'I' not on 'am'.

There take _that_


----------



## Paragon (May 16, 2002)

I thought it was simply amazing.  If you don't like it.  well that is your right.


Paragon


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## Wolfspider (May 16, 2002)

Holy Bovine said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Actually it was
> 
> ...




No contest.  You win.


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 16, 2002)

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> *
> Uhhh.... "Luke, I AM your father."
> 
> *



Oh right. That too. 

It's just so imbedded in my consciousness that I didn't really think of it.

But apart from those two, it's all the standard stuff: Kill the bad guy, rescue the princess, etc.

The new ones have politics!


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## Victim (May 16, 2002)

I like the Star Wars movies, but the original movies weren't especially amazing as far as acting, plausibility, and annoying characters.

At least the ones seem to be consistent with the old ones as far as the above elements are concerned.


----------



## RangerWickett (May 16, 2002)

As one who fairly loathed Episode I, but who has seen Ep II and loves it, let me weigh in here.  Sitting in the theater, watching The Phantom Menace, I enjoyed it, and even though I cringed repeatedly any time kid Ani was on screen, I felt everything with Ewan MacGregor and Liam Neeson made up for it.  Natalie Portman did a fine job too, taking into consideration that she was _supposed_ to be very serious and stilted.  There were enough battles, enough ooh-ahh action scenes, and all signs would show that with all those good things, it should've obviously been a great movie.  It fit the formula fine, and had all the things a good movie is supposed to.

But it just didn't work.  

Maybe the pieces were assembled wrong, or maybe it had a sturdy foundation and just some of the excess materials ruined it (like a perfectly fine house being painted in polka dots and swear words), but somehow, the pieces didn't work right.  It wasn't fun.

Now, I was going to skip the first weekend of EpII, and even then I wasn't planning to go unless I heard incredible things.  One of my friends heard this and bought a ticket for me, dragging me to go with him.  I figured that since the ticket was already bought, I might as well see it, so at least the crowds might make it worthwhile.  We were forced to sit in the top right corner of the theatre, about as far from the screen as possible, and as we waited the hour and a half for the movie to start, I had to continually remind them that if they got thirsty in the middle of the movie and wanted me to get them drinks, I'd be cool with that, because I was confident I wouldn't be enjoying it anyway.

Movie begins.  Open scrawl is okay, a little better than Ep I's "Trade is in dispute."  Plane flies into Coruscant, and I consciously realize that at this point, if you want to do something with computer graphics, you can.  No ifs ands or buts.  So the eyecandy is impressive, but so far nothing is dazzling me.

Anakin Skywalker is creepy, nearly a sukebe.  I mean honestly, he's like a stalker.  I was surprised Amidala didn't have him arrested at first.  But then my mind gets taken off that when we have a cool car chase through the skies of Coruscant.  I actually began smiling here, because it was well done.  Things slowly get better, especially whenever Obi-Wan tells off Anakin (I heard someone crack a joke, "Who's yo' daddy?  Oh yeah, you ain't got a daddy.").

From there, the only bad parts were Amidala and Anakin's romance, which was a little rough to watch.  Now, most of the group of people I was with probably wouldn't appreciate it, but when you finally get to the end of the movie, you realize that it works, that it's believable that those two fall in love.  Because of the mixture of pity, fear, and that overwhelming intimidation Anakin carries, I can actually believe Amidala begins to fall under his spell, and eventually comes to care for him.  It doesn't mean that they could've delivered some of their lines a little better, but I actually want to watch the movie again, not for the lightsaber duels or Yoda (well, okay, for those too), but because I want to watch those scenes with the future Mr. and Mrs. Skywalker in the right frame of mind.  I was too busy cringing the first time through to realize that it was done really well.  The reason I didn't like Anakin's portrayal at parts was not because it was done poorly, but because he portrays teen angst so well, and I really hate teen angst.  But out of that loathful angst, we see him pull off a brilliant performance as he lets his anger control him.

Attack of the Clones is a cunningly-designed movie.  It persuades you to love it with brilliant action scenes and heaps of cool Jedi showing how bad-ass they are, so that you forget your initial hesitancy.  When you watch it again, expecting to love the action scenes again, you'll be less inclined to hate the core of the movie--Anakin and Amidala.  It's parodixcally mind-boggling that Lucas is able to use the peripherals of the movie to draw you into the core, but it was vital, because so many fans would be uncomfortable with the love story (a lot SW fans are unattached guys, so what can you expect) and because we were disappointed with Episode I.  He had to bait and switch us, showing us a spectacular action sequence so we wouldn't realize that we're actually starting to like the plot of the damned movie.  I'm sure that a lot of people think the movie will be boring and bland.  I personally thought Attack of the Clones (*mimes a clawing motion*)  would be wretched.

I've never been so pleased to be wrong.  My congrats to Lucas and crew.


----------



## EricNoah (May 16, 2002)

*Re: It rocks*



			
				Wild Karrde said:
			
		

> *I keep hearing people complain about the acting.  I guess I would like someone to find me an outstanding performance in any of the Star Wars movies.  Let's face it, the Star Wars films are a story driven movie and acting has always come third to the story and effects.  It's not the Godfather.  Never has been, never will be.
> *




Harrison Ford.  Attack of the Clones could have used more performances of at least that quality.  But then they didn't really have a character who was so down-to-earth as Han in Ep II either...


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (May 16, 2002)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *When you watch it again...*




Well written and reasoned... please get back to me AFTER you actually watch it again.


Wulf


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## Desdichado (May 16, 2002)

_



Just got back, too jazzed to sleep. Can't deny the acting is poor almost without exception, but as joshua said- the last half hour is worth the $9. 

Click to expand...


_
I didn't say that.  I will, though!    Even though I only paid $5.75 for my ticket.  Luckily the rest of the movie is worth it as well.  

I'm a bit confused about the occasional complaints about the acting, however.  The acting was actually quite good.  The dialogue: now most of that could have been better, but Christiansen, MacGregor, Portman: all do a good job.


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## Rashak Mani (May 16, 2002)

Thanks Ranger Wickett...

   That was the kind of review I was waiting for... balanced and from a initial skeptic and Episode I hater.  Now I can hope to see Episode II and not feel robbed... not on the first week thou.  

   I had more fun in Episode I with the costumes and friends in the crowd than the film itself... hopefully this time its a little bit better.

   The difference between Sublime and Mediocre is a very thin one sometimes...


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## Ristamar (May 16, 2002)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Well written and reasoned... please get back to me AFTER you actually watch it again.
> 
> ...





Agreed, a very nice post.  Not that most really care, but I'll be posting my second viewing reactions, as well, along with my impressions of the digital experience.

My biggest complaint about my first viewing stems from the soulless hag that reviews films for the local paper sitting behind me who simply could not keep her snide comments to herself during the movie.  She seemed to have come in with an agenda, and she certainly was vocal about it.  I almost wanted to grab her by her ugly, gaping maw, drag her out of the theater, curb check her, and then tell her to go eat a bag of hell....  *cough*  ....'cause some people really don't know when to serve themselves a cold, tall glass of 'Shut The F*** Up.'


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## Holy Bovine (May 16, 2002)

Ristamar said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> I almost wanted to grab her by her ugly, gaping maw, drag her out of the theater, curb check her, and then tell her to go eat a bag of hell....  *cough*  ....'cause some people really don't know when to serve themselves a cold, tall glass of 'Shut The F*** Up.' *




Man, I think I have found my new sig quote 

Like the eat a bag od hell part and the 'tall cool glass' part was the icing on the cake


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## Tyler Do'Urden (May 16, 2002)

*Star Wars: Attack of the Clones Review*

This seems like a good thread to post my review in, so here it goes:

Score: 5 out of 5

First off, I'm a geek.  I probably wouldn't be posting to these boards if I wasn't.  I also love archetypal, heroic stories, big explosions, cool graphics, and love stories involving pretty young women.  

Attack of the Clones is, to say the least, the best Star Wars movie since 1982.  But then again, that's not saying much... so instead, I'll say this- Episode II is easily as good as Episode IV, if not as good as V and VI (the jury is still out on whether it matches these giants- I'll wait for the afterglow to wear off).  Lucas has got his groove back- big time.

There is more amazing eye candy in this movie than I've ever seen in any other movie- coming off a year that featured such effects-laden movies as "Lord of the Rings" and "Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within".  The amount of detail put into the visuals is nothing short of astounding.  From the amazing chase through Coruscant City, to the cloning chambers, to the massive battle near the end of the movie, there is no shortage of beautiful video footage.  Although it lacks the "every shot is a beauty shot" quality of LotR, that's not to say it doesn't have flare.

The acting isn't oscar quality, but it's not bad, either.  Hayden Christiansen pulls off the role of Anakin, portraying the angst and uncertain character of the role.  Anakin isn't Luke Skywalker- he's a cocky jerk, a first-rate antihero on par with Elric of Melnibone or Squall Leonhart.  He loves and he kills- and the scene with his mother broke my heart.  Natalie Portman's role as Senator Amidala was just icing on the cake- the love affair between the two leads was not just "filler between the action scenes", it was one of the highlights of the movie.  Ewan McGregor probably delivers the overall best performance of the movie, however, giving an excellent foil to Christiansen's rebellious padawan. Samuel L. Jackson and Christopher Lee delivered solid performances as well, and many other more minor characters also shined- just like the CG characters.

And speaking of CG characters, what of Jar-Jar Binks?  Well, I can't believe Lucas did this- as it turns out, Jar-Jar isn't only annoying, he's to blame for the fall of the republic.  When I saw him deliver his speech before the Republic Senate, I slapped a hand over my mouth in shock.

There's just too much in this movie to mention, so I'll quit giving away spoilers now.  However, one thing that also caught me when I was thinking about the film afterwards, is how many loose plot threads seem to have been tied or at least guided in a new direction by this film.  The Star Wars epic is truly coming together- and, in this light, Episode I no longer looks like an anticlimactic disappointment, but like a lighthearted first 2 1/2 hours to a 15-hour long saga.  The story of Anakin Skywalker is not yet complete, however... and this time, the three year wait for the next installment will be agonizing indeed.


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## King_Stannis (May 17, 2002)

Ristamar said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> My biggest complaint about my first viewing stems from the soulless hag that reviews films for the local paper sitting behind me who simply could not keep her snide comments to herself during the movie.  She seemed to have come in with an agenda, and she certainly was vocal about it.  I almost wanted to grab her by her ugly, gaping maw, drag her out of the theater, curb check her, and then tell her to go eat a bag of hell....  *cough*  ....'cause some people really don't know when to serve themselves a cold, tall glass of 'Shut The F*** Up.' *




great post. it is also proving out my theory (see earlier post) on what many critics think of SW and their fans. to them it's an excuse to snipe and take unwarrented swipes at the whole SW thing. movie reviewers are scum, pure and simple.


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## Wolfspider (May 17, 2002)

For the sake of civility I deleted a post I made in the other Star Wars thread regarding people's bad attitudes.  I just can't keep quiet when faced with even more hateful speech.  Like I said before, this message board is becoming an unpleasant place.  It really saddens me, this lack of even the most basic respect.


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## Ristamar (May 17, 2002)

Hey, don't get me wrong.  If she doesn't like Star Wars, that's fine.  I just don't want to hear her bitching and moaning about it while I'm trying to enjoy the movie.


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## Gizzard (May 17, 2002)

> movie reviewers are scum, pure and simple.

Well, someone is a tad testy today.   

Actually, when I read the salon.com review I wrote it off pretty quickly as the kind of hatchet job people the fan-faithful have been complaining about.  OTOH, there have been plenty of other reviews (professional and not) which have taken an evenhanded look at EP 2 and found it wanting in terms of dialogue and direction.  I just got an e-mail from a friend called "George Lucas should stop smoking crack!" where he went on to say he thought some parts of the movie were great (the light sabre duel, the aircar chase) and some parts were horrible (the love story, the writing) - but insisted that the best thing for the franchise would be if George had someone sitting beside him to tell him when his ideas suck.  A strong script editor.  

Anyway, these opinions arent out of line with the more reasonable reviews; calling all reviewers scum because some percentage of them are bashing your favorite movie is pretty narrowminded.


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## Some guy from Ohio (May 17, 2002)

"Quote" Actually it was "No, Luke I am your father."  Emphasis on 'I' not on 'am'.  There take that "Quote"

    Actually, it was "No, I am your father."  Vader does not say Luke's name in the sentence.  Check your tapes.  My 8 week old son's name is Luke and this is a line I have heard about a million times in the last two months!


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## Furtive Noise (May 17, 2002)

I thought that the movie was great, it actually felt like I was watching a Star Wars film unlike when viewing phantom menace.  I really liked the alien cloner race, a species that seemed very technologically advanced and not just a slavering monster type enemy.

   One thing that I would like before the prequels are finished is a good surprise, though.  I don't expect anything as shocking or profound as "..I am your father.", but I do have to say that I really haven't been taken by surprise in the new films.  Not that I knew everything that was going to happen, but most things did seem kind of predictable.  I suppose that knowing what will happen to the main characters of the films (what?! Anakin turns into Vader?  Yoda retires to a swampy backwater?) kind of makes it hard to shock people, but I do hold out hope for some "I can't believe it" moment or twist in the third movie.


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## Dr Midnight (May 17, 2002)

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> *For the sake of civility I deleted a post I made in the other Star Wars thread regarding people's bad attitudes.  I just can't keep quiet when faced with even more hateful speech.  Like I said before, this message board is becoming an unpleasant place.  It really saddens me, this lack of even the most basic respect.  *




Respectfully, let's not pretend you don't egg people on... If anyone here on the boards seems to go out of their way to fan flames and incite disturbances from time to time, it's you, Mr. Spider (IMO).


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## Rashak Mani (May 17, 2002)

Dont take it too personally Wolfspider... threads can get out of hand and anyway you know I agree fully with you... you´re not alone.

    Spoilers Guys !! Careful... I saw a lot of stuff that might spoil it for those where the film hasnt yet arrived or are in the first week boycott...  

    Guys there is a difference between a "Professional" Critic who doesnt necessarily wants or likes Sci-Fi or Star Wars and attacks the Ep II.  He prefers artsy movies and thats final.  Another is guys like me and Wolfspider who like Star Wars but feel it could have been much better or at least Episode I didnt have to be so bad.  Lucas could have contracted a real director, etc...  Its not a question of liking or not Star Wars... its what Star Wars is NOW vs what it COULD/SHOULD have been.

    Overall I liked reading so many opinions and overall I feel Episode II is much better and solid than the disastrous Episode I.  I will wait more hopefully now for the film to arrive in the theatres.


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## Simon Magalis (May 17, 2002)

Holy Bovine said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Actually it was
> 
> ...




Well.... ACTUALLY it was just "NO... I am your father!" I know because I am James Earl Jones.


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## Simon Magalis (May 17, 2002)

Hey, how's this for a change. I didn't really LOVE Episode I, but I would watch it over Jedi  ANY day of the week. After Jabba and with the exception of the last 20 minutes, Jedi has to be one of the most boring movies I have ever seen. Yes I am a Star Wars fan and I think Empire is the best of them all by a very long distance.


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## Psion (May 17, 2002)

Okay, I'm back from watching it. My turn. Warning. I have a lot of gripes. Keep in mind this is star wars, so I am starting from the pinnacle and working down.

In my mind, there are three (major) things that killed Ep I.

The pacing
Anikan Crusher
Jar Jar

While 2 and 3 are not so much an issue now, I think AotC still suffers from #1. Though the dips into mediocrity are not so deep, they seem pretty noticable.

Jar Jar is there, but not so in-your-face annoying. And in a move of poetic justice, we can now think of Jar Jar whenever anyone asks the question "whose stupid idea was it to hand power to the chancellor anyways?"

Anikan still annoys you, but it's a "Charlie X" sort of annoyance vice a "Wesley Crusher" sort.

The other factor that stunted my enjoyment was the acting. I actually think the acting was better in Ep I. Liam Neeson is a much better jedi master than McEwan. It just doesn't suit him as well. Likewise, I never felt the sort of emotion from Anikan that they were obviously trying to suggest he had.

There was not enough of a group dynamic and not enough focus on the core characters. Part of this links back to the acting and chemistry... it just wasn't there like it was with ep 4-6. But part of it is plotting. It felt a little more like a documentary.

I really think I might have enjoyed the movie a bit better if the Count Douku/Trade Federation thing hadn't have been spoiled for me. Ah well.

Good things: yoda. It is as good as you have heard.

Storm... ahem, CLONEtroopers being the calvary and sympathetic? That came off very well, I think.

Another thing that came off well. I pretty much agree with what everyone else has said about the Ani/Padme scenes being a big stumbling block for the movie... heck, I was expecting them to start strolling down the beach and have an announcer chime in and try to sell you a collection of favorite love songs. However, I don't think it is that bad... with a culling of a few scenes, it could have been tolerable. The biggest problem was that it ran across the grain with the rest of the movie. While they are slowly trying to build up a romance on site A, over at location B Obi-Wan is tracking down a threat to the empire. However, like I said, I thought it came off fairly well in the end. The clincher scene before they get chained up took me off guard... even though I knew it had to happen.

Jedi fights were cool. But as much as I hate to say it, they were better in Ep I. There, I said it. Flame me! I expected more of these scenes to make my heart jump into my throat. Only one did: Yoda.

"Agressive Negotiation" was funny. It needed a bit more humor to fit the SW feel, I think.

Lee was good.

That's it. No big uniting thesis. Better than AotC overall, but worse in some ways. Worse than the original trilogy. 4/5

In other news, I did like a few additional glimpses into the SW universe, especially the diner. It made the universe seem more gamable.

In still other news, I also have the revised SW RPG. Very nice brush ups... just wish they had done it right in the first place.

In still other news... the Minority Report movie looked like a great spycraft setting.


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## KChagga (May 17, 2002)

Saw "Clones" and liked it a whole helluva bunch.
I give it 8/10
No movie is perfect so it doesn't get a 10 and then I thought the flow of the movie was sort of off so it loses another point.  Overall I enjoyed it.  I hope we don't have to wait 3 years for the next one.


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## Sir Osis of Liver (May 17, 2002)

>"In still other news... the Minority Report movie looked like a great spycraft setting."<

Wow i was think the same exact thing.


Anyway, i liked this one far better than Phantom menace, i also have to say that in addition to the big Y Sam had some kick moves during the fight and i liked when anakin faced off against Douku. Over all the original Star wars is still my favorite, i never did like empire and attack o the clones rocked. I can't wait to see EP3.


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## Harlequin (May 17, 2002)

*...*

[Don't try and get round the profanity filter by using alternate characters.  You just end up losing your entire post. - Morrus]


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## RiggsWolfe (May 17, 2002)

I saw Ep2 today. Before I continue, I should say I like Ep1, and will go to my grave believing alot of the backlash against it has very little to do with the movie itself, and more to do with changing times and well....bandwagonitis.

Anyway, on to Ep2:

It rocked. It was Awesome. If i had to rank my SW movies, the ranking would be like so:

ANH/ESB
AOTC
TPM
ROTJ

and if I watch AOTC more it might knock one of those top two out of their spots.

Little things I liked:

Yoda kicking arse
Mace kicking butt and looking good while doing it

Little shades of things to come, MAJOR foreshadowing.

The darker feel, very ESBish.

Anyway I'll stop now before I accidentally let slip with a spoiler.


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## Imperialus (May 17, 2002)

hrm... looks like Harlequin needs to listen to his own signature.


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## Omegium (May 17, 2002)

I really loved the movie. There were a few things that could be better, but overal: a great movie. Especially the last half hour. Great!
9/10


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## Turlogh (May 17, 2002)

Saw the movie tonight... was surprised the theater wasn't sold out!

Movie was pretty good 8 out of 10
The love story thing was way too drawn out.
Yoda's fight was not very good in my opinion... he comes hobbling in on a frikkin' cane and then he's suddenly bouncing around like a pin ball... okay what ever. Yoda's use of the force on the other hand was top notch.
Why do the Jedi still have Anakin as a padwan??
The child actor for Bobba Fett was way worse the Anakin in the first movie.

But the rest of the movie and the action was great. Obi Wan was the best character and Padme was really good eye candy.


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## Drakmar (May 17, 2002)

I really enjoyed it..

Personally... I took EP1 for what it was.. the building blocks for EP2...Much of the plot devices for EP2 were started in EP1...and EP3 will build on that which is done in EP2.

Where as the 4,5,and 6 can almost all stand alone.

I love the way I can watch how Darth Sidious is playing two hands in each films so that no matter what happens, he will win in the end.

And...just to mention.. unlike us.. .the characters in the movie have not seem what has gone in the past.. or are privy to all the information.. and because they don't have Character Knowledge (oddly apt that this is on a RP'ing page) nobody suspects who Darth Sidious really is.

but...Yay Yoda.. you da man...or short green thing...
I so wanted him to say "On bring it..mmmm"


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## Sepulchrave II (May 17, 2002)

Utterl, utterly dismal.
What can I say?

This may be one of the worst movies EVER.

Will I go and see Episode 3?

Yes, I am an incorrigible optimist.


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## Arcane Runes Press (May 17, 2002)

Sepulchrave II said:
			
		

> *Utterl, utterly dismal.
> What can I say?
> 
> This may be one of the worst movies EVER.
> ...




If you honestly, TRULY believe that..........

well, words fail before the colossal wall of hyperbole.

Patrick Y.


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## hong (May 17, 2002)

Sepulchrave II said:
			
		

> *Utterl, utterly dismal.
> What can I say?
> 
> This may be one of the worst movies EVER.
> ...




Worst. Haiku. Evar.


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## hong (May 17, 2002)

Arcane Runes Press said:
			
		

> *
> 
> If you honestly, TRULY believe that..........
> 
> ...




Worst. Limerick. Evar.


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## Bagpuss (May 17, 2002)

Have to agree with Psion I thought the Jedi lightsabre duels in Episode I have yet to be bettered.

The fight in the hanger was too fast and poorly lite to get any apprication of the moves, and bit with two lightsabres was over as soon as it began.

If Yoda can move like that how come he hobbles with a cane and uses a floating wheel-chair?

Maybe seeing it on DVD at (1/2 speed) will improve the fights.

Over all I liked the movie however.


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## WizarDru (May 17, 2002)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> *Have to agree with Psion I thought the Jedi lightsabre duels in Episode I have yet to be bettered.
> 
> The fight in the hanger was too fast and poorly lite to get any apprication of the moves, and bit with two lightsabres was over as soon as it began.
> 
> If Yoda can move like that how come he hobbles with a cane and uses a floating wheel-chair? *




Two words: Force Powers.  I mean, give the guy a break, he's, what, 800 years old almost?  Criminey. 

I think part of the issue with that fight is that Lee is too old to be doing it, so they were using a double, and couldn't afford to get too close to the action, or it would have been too obvious, methinks.


I still think Empire is the best film, but think that Episode II was much, much better than Episode I, which I didn't dislike.  But ultimately, I'll never enjoy the film in the same way that I enjoyed the originals....times have changed, I've changed.

But the ten-year old boy who was in the theatre with me yesterday with his family...the one who shouted out "Oh yeah, It's starting! It's starting! Finally!!!" with barely contained anticipation: he's the one who will.  And I'm glad.  Lost in this great spanning discussion of the new Star Wars films (and by discussion, I mean everywhere, not the ENBoards) is the fact that this is not just mythology...it's pure entertainment.  It's transportation to another universe so powerful, that we're captivated by it.  The scope of Star Wars has always been one of it's greatest assets.  The story itself is a classic, well-used one...but before Star Wars, no one had attempted something on the scale of an actual Universe, not just three or four starship sets and a planet set or two.  Star Wars, as a series, spends virtually no time explaining its aliens, its technology or its politics.  Instead, it delivers more information about it's universe OUTSIDE the actual motion picture, for good or ill.  For those so interested, it's endlessly fascinating.  For the rest of us, it's just nice not to have all that extra baggage....lord knows we get enough exposition as it is. 

Episode II fulfills its promise to entertain, even if it does so unevenly.  I'll be interested in how it appears to us in a few more years, with the benefit of time.


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## Welverin (May 17, 2002)

Drakmar said:
			
		

> * And...just to mention.. unlike us.. .the characters in the movie have not seem what has gone in the past.. or are privy to all the information.. and because they don't have Character Knowledge (oddly apt that this is on a RP'ing page) nobody suspects who Darth Sidious really is.*




Actually I think Yoda suspects something is up with Palpatine. He gives a little scowl at one point when Palpatine is talking that gave me the impression he realizes Palpy is two faced.

Also Bail Organa gives a look at the end that shows his feelings on where the Republic is.


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## Tom Cashel (May 17, 2002)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> *
> If Yoda can move like that how come he hobbles with a cane and uses a floating wheel-chair?
> *




"Judge _me_ by my size, do you?  Hmmph.  And well you should not, for my ally is the Force.  And a powerful ally it is."

Although you can rationalize it just fine by saying, Yoda does what he's gotta do despite being 760 years old......I think that was also meant to be a bit of a joke.  You know: funny?

Anyway, I don't have much to add in the way of details (except the fact that Dooku heisting the Death Star plans was just brilliant)...I liked it a lot.  Much of the theater was laughing out loud during the "love scenes," so that helped to put things in perspective.  Good movie.


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## King_Stannis (May 17, 2002)

The movie is freaking awesome. I must admit that the nattering nabobs of negativism (ie the Critics) had me a tad worried, but as I watched the film all of that disappeared. A few points that I would like to address…

Hayden Christianson ends up looking like a whiny, confused and love-struck character. He needed  to be…uhhh….well, whiny, confused and love-struck! All of that crap about the acting in the movie was wrong. As I said, Christianson was playing a FREAKING teenager! He’s supposed to look awkward! Natalie Portman delivers a pretty solid performance. Their love story was not too bad. It certainly wasn’t as bad as some of you have made it out to be. As far as it being clichéd, well, okay. That is just terrible, considering it is FREAKING FAIRY TALE! Would you have preferred they bust out in some sort of “Moulin Rouge” moment just to be different? No thank you, I’ll take my fairy tale love predictable and clichéd. And while we’re at it, is there anything more clichéd than a “good girl” (i.e. Leia) falling for a “bad boy” (i.e. Solo)? People just seem to casually forget that one. 

Perhaps Anakin should have just given her the Slam! Bamm! Thank you Senator!? I think some of you need to learn how to immerse yourself in a movie. If you found fault in the acting, you were looking for fault to begin with – which is crazy, seeing as nobody is paying you for you opinion on the acting! I’ll say it again, the acting in this movie was universally solid. End Of Story!

The parts on Khimino were just great. It really gave to me a sense of vastness to the SW universe. I really felt those cloners were fantastic aliens, and creepy!

Jango and Boba rocked. Everything that has been said about the fight is true at the end. I was in a full theater at 10:30 last night and almost everyone was clapping and saying “Yeah!” with Yoda at the end. Also, the bygone tradition of clapping at the end of a good movie was brought back in force – pun intended, as the theater gave a great ovation at the end credits.

So that’s my capsule review. I am now firmly convinced that critics are unloading on this movie because they don’t understand and hate the SW phenomenon. No big deal, though. Film critics are the scum of the earth, right up there next to used car salesmen. 

All told, a really, really good movie. If you are a Lucas hater and go in looking for stuff to hate, no doubt you’ll find it. But after seeing it, I only have pity on your miserable, wretched lives. I was seriously pumped up when I got home – at 1:00am. I could barely fall asleep. And I can’t wait to go with my wife and 3 year old.

p.s. I thought it was very interesting the way that yoda uses a cane, though clearly he doesn't need. So does the emperor in Return of the Jedi! Both want to appear frail and old, and both are frightfully powerful.


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## Radiating Gnome (May 17, 2002)

*JUst chiming in (spoilers)*

I have to say that I was very plesantly surprised.  I'm in the large camp of those who loved 4-6 and were deeply disappointed with 1.  But I think we can at the very least talk about 2 in the same class as 4-6, although I don't know where among those it would fall on my personal list.  

I miss good dialog -- a combination of good writing and good directing that brings out the power of a bit of banter. 4-6 had it.  It's still missing from 1 and 2, although 2 is closer.

But the grand plot is there.  The Death star plans, the genesis of Boba Fett and the clone army of stormtroopers -- and the irony that the storm troopers are fighting on the side of the Jedi in this one.  And the fact that this entire battle - including the death of several Jedi, was all orchestrated by the Sith, putting two sides of the same unwitting republic against each other to put the republic in a position where they would be willing to vote Palpatine into dicatorial power.  Yoda, of course, is right again, at the end, when he questions the idea that they have won a victory.  

The return of irony to the Star Wars movies helps a lot.  I wish there were more human banter, but Yoda makes up for a lot.   Macgregor's Obiwan is just around the corner from being a great character in the way that Ford's Han Solo was.  And the casting of Christiensen as Anakin is a good choice too -- he's not quite likeable, but does angry and sinister very well.  Just that casting choice alone was a good move -- it sells the turn that Anakin must make in the next movie, and there will be some GREAT lightsaber fights in that one, I'm sure.  Anakin will kill Dooku to take his place at Sideous's side.  Then Obiwan, trying to protect Amidala, will duel Anakin and nearly kill him.  Perhaps with the help of Yoda -- I'm guessing that Windu will be dead by then, killed by Boba Fettt, who is hunting down the Jedi.  I don't know if we'll see anything quite so acrobatic as the duels with Darth Maul -- the one bright spot in SW1, but it would be nice to see it happen.

Now I'm trying to figure out when I can go and see it again.

-rg


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## King_Stannis (May 17, 2002)

hong said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Worst. Limerick. Evar. *




your spell check is broken.


----------



## EricNoah (May 17, 2002)

King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *
> So that’s my capsule review. I am now firmly convinced that critics are unloading on this movie because they don’t understand and hate the SW phenomenon. No big deal, though. Film critics are the scum of the earth, right up there next to used car salesmen.
> 
> All told, a really, really good movie. If you are a Lucas hater and go in looking for stuff to hate, no doubt you’ll find it. But after seeing it, I only have pity on your miserable, wretched lives. *




So there really is no middle ground for you -- if we love it, we're right, and if we found faults in it, we're miserable and wretched.  Man, you're not going to have much fun hanging out on a message board with such miserable and wretched people.  

I mean, please -- people have different opinions.  Speak them, hear them, disagree with them, but making judgements about a person as a whole just because of the way they feel about a *movie* is just foolish!


----------



## King_Stannis (May 17, 2002)

Sepulchrave II said:
			
		

> *Utterl, utterly dismal.
> What can I say?
> 
> This may be one of the worst movies EVER.
> ...




I have a suggestion. Go to the movie again, remove the cloth that you were obviously wearing around your eyes the first time as well as the ear plugs. You are allowed to use those senses when you watch a movie, you know.


----------



## King_Stannis (May 17, 2002)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *
> 
> So there really is no middle ground for you -- if we love it, we're right, and if we found faults in it, we're miserable and wretched.  Man, you're not going to have much fun hanging out on a message board with such miserable and wretched people.
> 
> I mean, please -- people have different opinions.  Speak them, hear them, disagree with them, but making judgements about a person as a whole just because of the way they feel about a *movie* is just foolish! *




just as foolish as people making a judgement about a movie based on the way they feel about a person?

some people have UNREASONABE opinions based on their personal dislike for the creator of the project. sorry, eric, but to me that needs to be called what it is - juvenile and idiotic. those are the people i was really referring to. 

didn't know you were in with the lucas-vendetta-hater crowd, eric. thought you had better judgement than that. to each their own, though.


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## Simon Magalis (May 17, 2002)

King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *. Film critics are the scum of the earth, right up there next to used car salesmen.
> 
> *




Please stop writing things like this. I used to review films for a newspaper and I don't consider myself the "scum of the earth".


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## EricNoah (May 17, 2002)

King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *
> to each their own, though. *




You don't actually seem to believe that, though.


----------



## King_Stannis (May 17, 2002)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *
> 
> ....I mean, please -- people have different opinions.  Speak them, hear them, disagree with them....*




just as you don't believe this (as least for me), either.


----------



## King_Stannis (May 17, 2002)

Simon Magalis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Please stop writing things like this. I used to review films for a newspaper and I don't consider myself the "scum of the earth". *




all right, maybe not the scum of the earth. my apologies. still, i think alot of them are trying to make a name for themselves by piling on this movie.


----------



## Black Omega (May 17, 2002)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *
> 
> You don't actually seem to believe that, though. *



Ironically, he's been insulting people for not liking a movie he himself had apparently not seen yet.  Talk about making up your mind before ever seeing the movie.

I'm still waiting for links to those reviews calling lucas fans idiots.


----------



## EricNoah (May 17, 2002)

King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> just as you don't believe this (as least for me), either. *




Can you really not see a difference between:

"I hated Episode II." 

and 

"If you hated Episode II you're miserable and wretched, and you must have had your eyes and ears closed."

You essentially blame a person's opposing opinions on flaws in character.  And that's simply no way to have any kind of civilized debate.  But if your intent is to *hurt* or make people defensive, then you're succeeding.  And just because others might be doing it (i.e. Rinndillar suggesting that if you don't boycott you lack integrity) doesn't mean that your similar behavior goes unnoticed.  What it does for me is make me less likely to want to get into *any* kind of discussion with you in the future -- I see your tactics and a repeated pattern of personal attacks and it just makes me want to stay away.  Which is a shame because I'm sure you have lots of good stuff to share.


----------



## King_Stannis (May 17, 2002)

Black Omega said:
			
		

> *
> Ironically, he's been insulting people for not liking a movie he himself had apparently not seen yet.  Talk about making up your mind before ever seeing the movie.
> 
> I'm still waiting for links to those reviews calling lucas fans idiots. *




take a look earlier in the thread. someone on these boards went to the movie and the local reviewer was sitting behind him. apparently, she couldn't keep her trap shut about how stupid the movie was.

you won't find any links to reviews where a reviewer calls a fan an idiot. but i'm sure you can find loads that probably start by saying...."This movie's going to make a zillion dollars because of the rabid SW fans BUT.......". anytime i read that, i pretty much know where it's heading. 

as for your first part, that is complete nonsense. i've argued with the lucas haters that they should not be judging this movie based on their hatred of lucas and on their hatred of episode !. i was certainly predisposed to liking this movie, but that still doesn't take away the fact that it was a good movie.


----------



## King_Stannis (May 17, 2002)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Can you really not see a difference between:
> 
> ...




look eric, maybe i need to clarify. if someone has legitimate beefs with the movie, i'll be glad to discuss them. i am talking about a select few here who will probably not give this movie a fair shake because of their personal hatred for the movie's creator. to me, those people are in a sense miserable because it is so juvenile for 30+ year olds to have that level of hatred for someone they've never met. for someone who didn't create his imaginary world JUST the way they wanted him to. so yes, the lucas haters of the world are miserable, they are wretched, and i will not let their B.S. go unchallenged.

if you have no beef with lucas, but don't like some stuff, fine. i may disagree, i may make points in my favor, but i'll have more respect for you than i ever would for the L-H's.


----------



## Henry (May 17, 2002)

King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *didn't know you were in with the lucas-vendetta-hater crowd, eric. thought you had better judgement than that. to each their own, though. *




Dude, this ain't a "fer me or agin' me" issue - there's room for criticism, while still enjoying it. That's an awful harsh stance to take. By the way, are the critics who enjoyed it "scum" also. It seems that the constant Lucas-bashing in the "kewl" crowd has soured you to actual, honest criticism.

Whatever happened to "agree to disagree?"

However, I don't have any sympathy for those who actively ruin a movie for another, like the one poster with the "movie critic who wouldn't shut up." That critic should have had the same basic courtesy that is requested by the staff of the theater. Basic rule: if you're there in the theater to bash a movie out loud, you don't belong there. Get the **** out and let everybody else do what they are supposed to be there for!

SPOILERS AHEAD, READ AT YOUR OWN RISK!





I saw it at a 7:00 PM showing on the 16th - and I had two feelings. One was "that was it????" - I honestly have no clue where the 2 1/2 hours I spent on that film went! This actually disappointed me, to an extent, because of the unfinished feeling it had. I usually like a movie to "wrap itself up" in a way, and this one felt very, very unfinished.

I definitely enjoyed it, though. Every minute was fun, from the street chase to the last scene. For the spectacle of a mass Jedi battle, it was worth every dollar. For the Yoda fight at the end, it was worth twice that, to see that little green Tasmanian Devil kick major butt. My absolute favorite was the moment you know he's faking - he simply picks up his staff, assumes his crouch, and hobbles along to check on the wounded.

Jar Jar - what can I say about the floppy-eared goof? He stole the screen like last time, and I laughed out loud at the moment he makes the senate proposal. My only thought was, "if the Ep1 haters hated him then, they've got a WHOLE NEW BAG OF AMMUNITION NOW."  I gotta hand it to the gungan. He surprised me.

Anakin's Palpatine instruction- It was a nice touch the way they gave insinuations that Palpy had been winning over and teaching Anakin over the years. However, the part that felt force was that we unfortunately could not see that period of time in this movie. By the time the movie opens, we can see that Anakin has a great deal of trust and respect in Palpatine, but we do not get tosee how this comes to be.

Anakin's loss - I was actually shocked at this, though I suppose I shouldn't have been. It is his rashness that gets him and Obi-wan in trouble, and he pays the price, though he will undoubtedly refuse to see it later. In his mind, it will likely be Obi-wan's fault that he suffered his loss, and this will drive him deeper into darkness.

This episode leaves many, many questions unanswered, and with the amount of time left only down to one movie, it will be fascinating how it all fits together.


----------



## EricNoah (May 17, 2002)

King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> look eric, maybe i need to clarify. *




Ok, well that helps.  Thanks.


----------



## Black Omega (May 17, 2002)

King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *Almost every negative review of these last two movies has taken swipes at the fans and what sheep they are, while then going on to give an gobjectiveh review.*





And then later from King when I asked about these reviews.



> *
> you won't find any links to reviews where a reviewer calls a fan an idiot.*





I'll just leave this discussion at this and move on to more interesting things.

I'll probably end up seeing the movie.  The cool scenes I've heard about sound well worth the slower moments.  I've been through about 15 reviews now and thumbs up or down, they all seem to agree the movie is excellent eyecandy with good action.  I wish there was no Jar Jar, but he's worth seeing Yoda laying the smackdown.


----------



## King_Stannis (May 17, 2002)

Henry said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Dude, this ain't a "fer me or agin' me" issue - there's room for criticism, while still enjoying it. That's an awful harsh stance to take. By the way, are the critics who enjoyed it "scum" also. It seems that the constant Lucas-bashing in the "kewl" crowd has soured you to actual, honest criticism.
> 
> Whatever happened to "agree to disagree?"...*




that wasn't my stance, henry! read my above post to eric. i was talking about a certain few. i'll gladly debate and RESPECT honest criticism of the movie. 

and to answer your question, yes, i most likely have been soured to honest criticism because the kewlness of bashing the whole SW phenomenon and Lucas in particular.


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## Harlequin (May 17, 2002)

*What happened to Freedom of Speech???*

Is Ass Kisser a rude word?

If it is this post will get censored also :rollseyes:

You know i used to like coming here to express opinions and get intelligent debate but if you cant express yourself without getting your WHOLE post deleted , well something smells in the state of Texas...

Who cares anyway...It wasnt like the fan boys wanted to hear a negative comment about Lord Holy Lucas...

I do expect some almighty forum watcher to slap my hand and say im a bad boy for typing the word ass (twice) in a post but what peeves me off is not that the post would of been altered, but the whole thing was deleted, thats just out and out utter sad...

Never thought that would happen here...

Just goes to say that what i think about people these days is pretty true, everyone is so politically correct humans are turning into CLONES...there is the Star Wars Ep II tie in, just to keep on topic...:rollseyes:

Learn something new every day...


Harlequin


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## King_Stannis (May 17, 2002)

Black Omega said:
			
		

> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Originally posted by King_Stannis
> Almost every negative review of these last two movies has taken swipes at the fans and what sheep they are, while then going on to give an gobjectiveh review.
> ...




i dont' understand? what's the correlation?

when a reviewer says, in so many words, that fans will go to a movie regardless of the critics' negative reviews', he in essence is calling them a sheep, no? how else do you explain that behavior?

you are the one who (mistakenly, i believe) said that i said reviewers were calling people idiots. (phew!)

but don't worry, i forgive you for taking me out of context. i've had a lot of practice with that this morning.


----------



## King_Stannis (May 17, 2002)

*Re: What happened to Freedom of Speech???*



			
				Harlequin said:
			
		

> *
> Who cares anyway...It wasnt like the fan boys wanted to hear a negative comment about Lord Holy Lucas...
> 
> *




thank you for redeeming my earlier and controversial comments on lucas haters and their maturity level.


----------



## Bonedagger (May 17, 2002)

*Re: What happened to Freedom of Speech???*



			
				Harlequin said:
			
		

> *Is Ass Kisser a rude word?
> 
> If it is this post will get censored also :rollseyes:
> 
> ...




Ass. Kisser? (Ass. = Assassin)  ..ok. that one sucked.

Never saw the post but maybe it was because you flamed  someone?


----------



## Morrus (May 17, 2002)

*Re: What happened to Freedom of Speech???*



			
				Harlequin said:
			
		

> *Is Ass Kisser a rude word?
> 
> If it is this post will get censored also :rollseyes:
> 
> ...




1) That wasn't the word in question, as I'm sure you know.  And you are free to express yourself, as long as you don't use profanity.  If you don't like those rules, there are probably boards elsewhere with rules that suit you better.

2) If, for whatever strange reason, you actually believed that that was the word referred to, why did you type it again after you perceived that you had been asked not to?  That indicates to me that you have no repect for the rules of this messageboard.  Your permission to post here is contingent upon those rules.

3) "Freedom of speech"?  What does that have to do with my messageboard?  You can think what you like, but I'm afraid I have no obligation to broadcast or distribute those words.



> what peeves me off is not that the post would of been altered, but the whole thing was deleted, thats just out and out utter sad...




As sad as being aware of the rules (otherwise why would you have felt the need to try and circumvent the profanity censors) and going out of your way to deliberately break them?  If it had been an accident and you had used a word which I had, for some reaosn, missed in the filter, I would have just edited the word.  Since it was deliberate, I didn't bother wasting the time.


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## King_Stannis (May 17, 2002)

getting back to more pleasant business, i have a (slight) spoiler question
\
\
\
\
\
\
\
\
\
\
\
\
\
\
\
\

In SW:ANH, how is it that C-3PO didn't remember that he had worked for Own and Barue before? you figure that when owen was grilling him about his ability C-3PO would have said "look, idiot - i've done this crap before! FOR YOU!"

oh well, a slight continuity error (unless someone can tell me if i'm mistaken)


----------



## Dr Midnight (May 17, 2002)

> In SW:ANH, how is it that C-3PO didn't remember that he had worked for Own and Barue before? you figure that when owen was grilling him about his ability C-3PO would have said "look, idiot - i've done this crap before! FOR YOU!"
> 
> oh well, a slight continuity error (unless someone can tell me if i'm mistaken) [/B]




Memory wipe. They're common for droids. Also explains why he doesn't recognize the name Obi-Wan Kenobi or even the planet Tatooine in EpIV... I'm guessing. It'd be pretty odd if Lucas just missed that one.


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## King_Stannis (May 17, 2002)

Dr Midnight said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Memory wipe. They're common for droids. Also explains why he doesn't recognize the name Obi-Wan Kenobi or even the planet Tatooine in EpIV... I'm guessing. It'd be pretty odd if Lucas just missed that one. *




yep, that's probably the only logical explanation. i'm sure the more practical matter for lucas was how to get them all together without wasting some scenes. having 3PO at the farm was probably the easiest and most efficient way to do that.


----------



## Desdichado (May 17, 2002)

It may even have actually happened.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
At the end, remember when 3PO was re-put back together by R2?  And he goes "What a strange dream I've had..." or something like that.  It's certainly possible that 3PO is already on his way to losing his memory of "the Maker," Tatooine, etc.


----------



## Macbrea (May 17, 2002)

Ok, have just seen it myself. On a whole I say the movie is worth seeing.  Here is somethings that I noted from the movie.


First: I find it perfectly fine that Jar-Jar would be dupped into giving over the republics freedoms to Palpatine. 

Second: As many people have pointed out Anakin's acting could be termed as poor.  Though, I have to admit if they were trying to show that Luke was cut from the same cloth as Anakim Skywalker then they managed to do that. God can the both of them whine and cry like babies.  Both actors where given a character that has to whine when it doesn't get its own way. We seem to accept it when luke does it but have a problem when his father does the exact same thing? 

Probably my favorite scene is Yoda commanding the Startroopers to wipe out the Starships. Something seemed just off about that scene.


As to Yoda's fighting style. It isn't particularly hard to do those manuevers when you weigh about 50 lbs add can lift a concrete ceiling with your mind.  And if your looking for that exact set of manuevers in another movie. You will see that exact fighting style done by the female in "Crouching tiger, hidden dragon".


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## King_Stannis (May 17, 2002)

Macbrea said:
			
		

> *
> Second: As many people have pointed out Anakin's acting could be termed as poor.  Though, I have to admit if they were trying to show that Luke was cut from the same cloth as Anakim Skywalker then they managed to do that. God can the both of them whine and cry like babies.  Both actors where given a character that has to whine when it doesn't get its own way. We seem to accept it when luke does it but have a problem when his father does the exact same thing? ....*




a good point about the whining. i myself thought that christianson acquitted himself just fine. there were moments when i thought "man, that sounded awkward" and then i had to nudge myself and remember that this kid is just a teenager. teenagers are not supposed to be polished or smooth. even jedi's!


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## el-remmen (May 17, 2002)

> First: I find it perfectly fine that Jar-Jar would be dupped into giving over the republics freedoms to Palpatine.




Okay?

It was friggin' brilliant.  Jar-Jar went from a totally stupid comic character to a tragic comic character!  I love him now!


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## Sepulchrave II (May 17, 2002)

King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I have a suggestion. Go to the movie again, remove the cloth that you were obviously wearing around your eyes the first time as well as the ear plugs. *





I actually had high expectations about this movie. I felt that Ep 1 was mediocre, not bad. I felt that the 'boycott' movement was childish and prejudiced. Nonetheless, I still thought it was a very, very bad movie. Obviously, you didn't.


Is that really so hard to accept?


----------



## Dr Midnight (May 17, 2002)

nemmerle said:
			
		

> *It was friggin' brilliant.  Jar-Jar went from a totally stupid comic character to a tragic comic character!  I love him now! *




I know! I marvel at that Uncle George pulled this one off... I really felt for Jar Jar. Poor lonely senator from Otoh Gunga, pawn of Palpatine. 

I felt sympathy for Jar Jar when he said "Meesa bustin' with happiness seein' you, Ani!" and Anakin ignored the sentiment, mumbling something about Padme. I thought- Jar Jar's an annoying EpI wrecker, but he never meant anyone any harm. Why can't you return his earnest greeting, you moody little Dawson's Creek cast-off?

I hate to say it, but I just wanted to give Jar Jar a hug.


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## Desdichado (May 17, 2002)

Wow, Doc Midnight.  I didn't even come close to noticing that.  You've really reached new heights of gunganophilia...


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## Zappo (May 17, 2002)

I found everything Yoda did surprising. In the classic movies he looked a bit like some sort of Ghandi, and now we find out that he is a master general and a devil with the lightsaber, too. I guess you learn a lot of things in 800 years.

I wonder if the kids in the scene where he is teaching ever accidentally lop off another kid's head.

I've noticed that droid heads are plug'n'play


----------



## Psion (May 17, 2002)

King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *a good point about the whining. i myself thought that christianson acquitted himself just fine. there were moments when i thought "man, that sounded awkward" and then i had to nudge myself and remember that this kid is just a teenager. teenagers are not supposed to be polished or smooth. even jedi's! *




That's really not the issue. Sure, he's a teenagers. But teenagers have emotions. When Luke despondant when his family was wiped out, when vader was taunting him, and so on, I actually believed the emotion.

But when Ani was filled with rage over the loss of his mother, or buckling against the control of the council, or yearning for Padme's affection, I just didn't see the supposed emotion being portrayed in his face or in his voice. I wasn't convinced. It's like I knew that they were in a studio somewhere.

Awkwardness had little to do with it. You don't have to be suave to have emotions.


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## Arcane Runes Press (May 17, 2002)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> *
> 
> If Yoda can move like that how come he hobbles with a cane and uses a floating wheel-chair?
> *




Yeah, I know this quote is from 4 pages back......

Anyway, Yoda fights-like-a-demon-but-walks-like-a-grandpa-with-bunions because that's a long established shtick of the "old master" archetype. There are variations of it in countless martial arts legends and movies. I thought that was just THE crowning touch of an already excellent movie. 

Patrick Y.


----------



## fenzer (May 17, 2002)

*MINOR SPOILERS*



			
				Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> *Here's how I see this playing out...
> 
> The folks who saw midnite shows of this are predisposed to love it, give it 9 or 10.
> 
> ...




I agree. 

I saw it last Wednesday at a sneak preview and I came away sad.  I liked the show for all the reasons I thought I wouldn't and hated it for all the things I thought would and should work.  The love scene, I didn't mind it.  The dialog, I didn't mind it.  Jar Jar, I didn't mind him.  The CGI, it looked great.  It was the pacing, the flow, the lack of Star Wars feel.  This show had not depth.  It was hollow.  George would spend only a few minutes on one theme and then hurry to the next.  It was further flawed by leaving out the scenes with Padme's family.  Not showing what happened to Shmi was a mistake.  And most of all, the treatment of the most pivital scene of the whole movie, the tuskin camp, was given a lack-luster pass over that left the whole thing feeling insignificant.

I am a die-hard Star Wars fan.  One who saw it early and one who is dissapointed.  I give it a 6/10.


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## Desdichado (May 17, 2002)

You thought _that_ pacing was bad?!  How about _The Phantom Menace_?  How about _The Empire Strikes Back_ with all that Yoda philosophizing?  How about _Return of the Jedi_ with all that picnic in the woods crap in the middle of the movie?  This movie was the best-paced Star Wars movie since the original _Star Wars_ movie!

Sure, that doesn't mean it was perfect.  I agree that the Tuskan Raider scene, which should have been so pivotal, was underplayed.  But, if you complain about not adding in the Padme family stuff and then call the pacing bad, I don't really know what your complaint is.  It almost sounds as if you hoped the pacing would be _worse._  Padme's family couldn't possibly have added anything other than a slowing down of the movie.


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## fenzer (May 17, 2002)

*Nope.*



> Padme's family couldn't possibly have added anything other than a slowing down of the movie. [/B]




I couldn't dissagree more.  These scenes helped define Padme's struggle between here duty and the feelings in her heart.  Instead of rushing through scenes that take her from being uncomfortable to kissing to marriage, what, in about a weeks time, we would have greater insight into her feelings for Anakin.  She sees, through her family, that she wants and in fact longs for a life with a family of her own.  So, instead of thinking that Padme's reaction to Anakins confession of murder is off, we understand that she looks beyond this realizing that Anakin, despite his own torement, is who she wants to be with.  Despite his horrible acts, she loves him and we have the insight as to why she does.

If you have not read the novelization, I recommend it.  It clears up alot of these issues and besides, it's a good read.


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## Tsyr (May 17, 2002)

I'm a bit late posting, I was one of the midnight watchers though, stood in line for 14 bloody hours to get a ticket... (no advance sales here).

Overall, a very good movie. I groaned at a few parts (Some of C3PO's one-liners, and the some of the awkard love scenes, but overall, very good.

And for the whole "How can yoda move like that and still hobble on a cane", there are two answers (I loved the Yoda scene, btw).

1) He just pretends most of the time to be a cripple. If your oponents don't consider you a threat, you have an advantage. He certainly pretended to be very helpless at first to Luke in Empire.

or, 2, and this is the one I take...

When yoda was fighting, it was sorta like he was a mage with Bull's Strength, True Strike, Haste, Cat's Grace, etc cast on him. He can be a monster in combat, but it's probably very draining on him, as he has to tap the force heavily. He seemed to be very exausted afterwords, you'll note.


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## EricNoah (May 17, 2002)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> *He can be a monster in combat, but it's probably very draining on him, as he has to tap the force heavily. He seemed to be very exausted afterwords, you'll note. *




Ah, so Yoda is a Barbarian!


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## Mistwell (May 17, 2002)

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I just want to point out that the Salon.com article does NOT diss Star Wars fans.  It just points out that they are such devout fans of the series that they will ignore many flaws of the films--an observation I think it right on target.  Isn't that true of any group of fans?
> 
> Anyway, the "mind-numbed lucas robots" comment that King Stannis quotes is nowhere to be found in the Salon review, so it is probably an overgeneralization of his own creation (and thus somewhat misleading when it's quoted in the context of his post). *




Wold, what she says is "It's an event, a juggernaut, with a preprogrammed audience ready to like it whether it's any good or not." "Attack of the Clones" could be the worst movie ever made and still it would have the faithful rallying around the Lucas franchise, brandishing their light sabers like bayonets."  Preprogrammed audience = mind-numbed robots.  Her whole perspective is that Lucas fans are robots.

Mind you, look who we are talking about.  Here are all her reviews, review the reviewer, and you decide for yourself if her tastes are similar to yours: http://ofcs.rottentomatoes.com/author-228/


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## King_Stannis (May 17, 2002)

Sepulchrave II said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> I actually had high expectations about this movie. I felt that Ep 1 was mediocre, not bad. I felt that the 'boycott' movement was childish and prejudiced. Nonetheless, I still thought it was a very, very bad movie. Obviously, you didn't.
> ...




fine, it's your opinion and your entitled to it. glad you felt the same way i did about the boycott, too.

but worst movie ever? come on. that doesn't lend much credence to your argument. give a few reasons why it was the worst movie ever, then i'll listen.


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## Rashak Mani (May 17, 2002)

I think the "worst movie" tag comes easily once you imagine how good it could have been instead... its just exagerration not fact no matter how bad Ep I or II are.

   Especially because I firmly beleive the number one bad movies are Highlander Sequels... nothing Lucas might do will change my greiving for the Highlanders II and III... number 3 I didnt have the courage to see... not even on video...


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 17, 2002)

I gotta say, Jar Jar was handled a lot better this time. However, I detested Threepio. I liked him ok in the other movies, but it seems in AOTC, he just picked up where Jar Jar left off in E1.

Luckily, just when I was about to start really getting ticked, he was toned down a bit. All those lame puns where a bit much.

Loved the movie though. It was worth the price of the ticket for Yoda alone.

I'm seriously considering playing a halfling psion in my next game.


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## Rashak Mani (May 17, 2002)

MY YOU GUYS BLAB so much about Yoda  !!  I really want to see his fight scene now !!       Love that little critter... cant wait to see him sabre in hand ... cute and deadly... go figure.


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## Dr Midnight (May 17, 2002)

Y'know, I'm spending lunch here reading reviews and fan opinions and CNN articles on the Star Wars franchise, and I'm realizing that I enjoyed this latest film as much more than what I'm presented with from opening crawl to credits. It's the watercooler discussion here on the boards, it's how Yoda's fight scene just makes me giggle every time I think about it, it's the speculation on how III will link I,II, and IV. My two nine dollar tickets bought me a world of entertainment that's infected my imagination like a virus. Since Wednesday night, I've been thinking/eating/talking/living Star Wars, and I'm enjoying every moment. 

Just a "smell the roses" moment from a Star Wars fan.


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## Dr Midnight (May 17, 2002)

Rashak Mani said:
			
		

> *MY YOU GUYS BLAB so much about Yoda  !!  I really want to see his fight scene now !!       Love that little critter... cant wait to see him sabre in hand ... cute and deadly... go figure. *




Oh, man, you've got no idea. I mean, we rave about the scene, but the hype just doesn't do it justice. Yoda's fight scene is better than you can be led to believe by mere words from the mouths of those who've seen it.


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## Zappo (May 17, 2002)

I sorta disliked 3PO's lines in the arena, you know, all those "I'm losing my head" and such. Cheap puns.

BTW, whenever I feel like saying "worst movie ever" I just think about Highlander 2, The Cube and Pi, then I think "worst ever = worse than that", and then I invariably change my mind.

Rashak, Highlander 3 is not that bad. The director basically ignored that Highlander 2 ever existed, and picked up from Highlander 1. Maybe you won't really like it, but you won't die, trust me (which is a relevant risk, instead, when viewing any of the three movies I mentioned before). 

Oh, and to picture the way Yoda fights, think about a Haste spell from 2e.

edit: better... think about the best lightsaber fighter you remember - say, Darth Maul. Now think about him, with a 2e Haste spell on.


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## Rashak Mani (May 17, 2002)

Zappo... following the "There can only be One"... I abstained from watching Highlander III.

   Highlander ONE is my favorite movie.... Highlander 2 is the worst movie for me... so why risk number 3 ? 

( My friends told me about the silly stuff in number 3 so I didnt bother and never will.)

   This kind of anticipation was what made Episode I that much more insulting...


----------



## Wolfspider (May 17, 2002)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Wold, what she says is "It's an event, a juggernaut, with a preprogrammed audience ready to like it whether it's any good or not." "Attack of the Clones" could be the worst movie ever made and still it would have the faithful rallying around the Lucas franchise, brandishing their light sabers like bayonets."  Preprogrammed audience = mind-numbed robots.  Her whole perspective is that Lucas fans are robots.
> 
> Mind you, look who we are talking about.  Here are all her reviews, review the reviewer, and you decide for yourself if her tastes are similar to yours: http://ofcs.rottentomatoes.com/author-228/ *




I read the "preprogrammed audience" comment to mean that there is already a huge group of Star Wars fans who will go see the movie no matter what, just as a there are many Harry Potter fans who will automatically see the next Potter film and many Tolkien fans who will go see the next LotR film (and so on for Star Trek, Spiderman, and The Matrix).  These are the faithful she is talking about.  I know I'm "preprogrammed" in that way regarding the Two Towers and The Matrix....

By the way, do I really egg people on that badly?  I thought I had finally found my middle ground.  I may have to give up posting to message boards altogether....


----------



## Ristamar (May 17, 2002)

Dr Midnight said:
			
		

> *Y'know, I'm spending lunch here reading reviews and fan opinions and CNN articles on the Star Wars franchise, and I'm realizing that I enjoyed this latest film as much more than what I'm presented with from opening crawl to credits. It's the watercooler discussion here on the boards, it's how Yoda's fight scene just makes me giggle every time I think about it, it's the speculation on how III will link I,II, and IV. My two nine dollar tickets bought me a world of entertainment that's infected my imagination like a virus. Since Wednesday night, I've been thinking/eating/talking/living Star Wars, and I'm enjoying every moment.
> 
> Just a "smell the roses" moment from a Star Wars fan. *




Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.  Ever since I saw the movie, I can't stop thinking about it, and I've wanted to discuss Star Wars non-stop with anyone that has also seen the movie.  And now I want to go see it again to pick up on what I may have missed the first time, and once again soak up all the goodness that most definitely did not escape my eyes and ears.  If that's not a good indication of success, I don't know what is... 

Reflecting back, I didn't quite get that feeling from Episode I (even though I did watch it multiple times), though I have to admit that it did what it was supposed to do (lay the groundwork for the future installments).


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## DwarvenBrew (May 17, 2002)

*Just saw it last night*

Just saw it last night! I would rate it as a "good" movie. The action and effects were specatacular, and the story itself was well done and will lead nicely into the final movie. Lucas definitely did a good job of setting the stage for the last movie.

IMHO, the acting was also pretty good, however the dialogue itself was somewhat weak. I thought that the actors' expressions, body language, tone, etc... was right on. However, the written dialogue was somewhat overdone and melodramatic at times. 

Many of the love scenes should have been shortened, they would have had the same effect without overdoing it (quite a few people were actually laughing out loud during some of the scenes that were suppose to be serious).

All in all, it's a good movie, but nothing exceptional. The reality is that Lucas is no longer a revolutionary mind in the movie business. He writes good stories with VERY average dialogue, and the special effects are no longer years ahead of the industry as a whole.

It is worth seeing, just don't expect the Matrix, Gladiator, Braveheart or LoTR.

The fight between the Jedi masters makes the movie.


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## Desdichado (May 17, 2002)

_



*fenzer:*
I couldn't dissagree more. These scenes helped define Padme's struggle between here duty and the feelings in her heart. Instead of rushing through scenes that take her from being uncomfortable to kissing to marriage, what, in about a weeks time, we would have greater insight into her feelings for Anakin. She sees, through her family, that she wants and in fact longs for a life with a family of her own. So, instead of thinking that Padme's reaction to Anakins confession of murder is off, we understand that she looks beyond this realizing that Anakin, despite his own torement, is who she wants to be with. Despite his horrible acts, she loves him and we have the insight as to why she does. 

If you have not read the novelization, I recommend it. It clears up alot of these issues and besides, it's a good read.

Click to expand...


_
I have not read the novelization.  However, I don't think those things need to be added into the movie to make Padme's falling for Annakin make sense.  The scenes they did have established that very well.  Adding more scenes would have only slowed the pacing more (which you already complained about) and not really added anything essential.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (May 17, 2002)

Interesting:

http://bressler.org/response.asp?mid=2257


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## Rashak Mani (May 17, 2002)

Reading that review it hit me that Goerge Lucas always puts CUTE characters in his films:

  r2d2  - Ewoks -  little hooded sandmen - Yoda - jar jar (tried too at least) - Anakin Kid


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## King_Stannis (May 17, 2002)

just saw it again. a few more observations:

* The acting still held up well, IMHO. in fact, i think i ended up having an even  better opinion of portman and christianson the second time around.

* the speeder chase scene at the beginning dragged a bit. could have been shortened a tad.

* the yoda scene at the end was kind of a letdown the second time around. just not the same as the first time, not the same energy. i still thought it was cool, but just not the same. 

* kimino was still great, still so "alien".

* all in all, a great movie even after one viewing. can't wait to get the dvd and watch it in digital glory.


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## spacecrime.com (May 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tsyr _*
> [Yoda] can be a monster in combat, but it's probably very draining on him, as he has to tap the force heavily. He seemed to be very exausted afterwords, you'll note. *




Another way to look at it is that Yoda doesn't use the Force unless he has to. Contrast this with Anakin, who thinks using the Force is fun and does so whenever possible.

yours,


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## Holy Bovine (May 18, 2002)

Rashak Mani said:
			
		

> *Reading that review it hit me that Goerge Lucas always puts CUTE characters in his films:
> 
> r2d2  - Ewoks -  little hooded sandmen - Yoda - jar jar (tried too at least) - Anakin Kid *





  You're just realizing that now??!!?


----------



## hong (May 18, 2002)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> *And for the whole "How can yoda move like that and still hobble on a cane", there are two answers (I loved the Yoda scene, btw).
> 
> 1) He just pretends most of the time to be a cripple. If your oponents don't consider you a threat, you have an advantage. He certainly pretended to be very helpless at first to Luke in Empire.
> 
> ...




The problem seems to be that Eps 1-3 take place a short time ago (relative to Ep 4) in a galaxy far, far away, but the thrust of the storyline and the character archetypes need it to take place a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.

Speaking of which, is it really true that Ep 3 will take place 20 years before Ep 4? An Evil Empire that lasts 20 years is pretty pathetic, if you ask me. The Qing dynasty lasted three centuries, and even the USSR lasted close to a century!


----------



## Rashak Mani (May 18, 2002)

Holy Bovine said:
			
		

> *
> 
> You're just realizing that now??!!?  *




   Darn cute things.... princesses... hairy creatures... Sword wielding men... Order of "Knights" (Jedi)... evil empires... magic like powers... the only thing lacking are Dragons.

   This is too much fairy tale for me... give me "real" sci fi please


----------



## Ristamar (May 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rashak Mani _*Darn cute things.... princesses... hairy creatures... Sword wielding men... Order of "Knights" (Jedi)... evil empires... magic like powers... the only thing lacking are Dragons.*




Actually, there are dragons.  Krayt Dragons....  on Tatooine.  They haven't appeared in any of the movies yet, unfortunately, though there's still Episode III.


----------



## Mistwell (May 18, 2002)

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I read the "preprogrammed audience" comment to mean that there is already a huge group of Star Wars fans who will go see the movie no matter what, just as a there are many Harry Potter fans who will automatically see the next Potter film and many Tolkien fans who will go see the next LotR film (and so on for Star Trek, Spiderman, and The Matrix).  These are the faithful she is talking about.  I know I'm "preprogrammed" in that way regarding the Two Towers and The Matrix....
> 
> By the way, do I really egg people on that badly?  I thought I had finally found my middle ground.  I may have to give up posting to message boards altogether.... *




Wolf, if all she had said was "a preprogrammed audience ready to go see the movie", you would be right.  But that isn't what she said.  What she said was "ready to like it whether it's any good or not."  That is another way of saying mind-numbed robot.  People who have been programmed to like a film even if it is bad.  That's fan-bashing, pure and simple.  I can't see any other reasonable way of interpreting her comment. 

Look, all you have to know about STEPHANIE ZACHAREK is that she bags on top grossing movies as a way to attract attention.  She bashed Titanic, right as it came out.  Now, I'm no huge Titanic fan, but for a critic to bash it at that time was just baiting people to talk about her review.  She's doing the same thing with AOTCs. 

BTW, she was a big fan of Shallow Hal and Josie and the Pussycats.


----------



## Wolfspider (May 18, 2002)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> *
> BTW, she was a big fan of Shallow Hal*




Shallow Hal?  Blech!


----------



## Droogie (May 18, 2002)

hong said:
			
		

> *
> 
> The problem seems to be that Eps 1-3 take place a short time ago (relative to Ep 4) in a galaxy far, far away, but the thrust of the storyline and the character archetypes need it to take place a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.
> 
> Speaking of which, is it really true that Ep 3 will take place 20 years before Ep 4? An Evil Empire that lasts 20 years is pretty pathetic, if you ask me. The Qing dynasty lasted three centuries, and even the USSR lasted close to a century! *




Well, the napoleonic "empire" lasted only 15 years, and the "third reich" lasted only 5. 

In fact, I think Hitler's Germany is a perfect analogy for the Galactic Empire, moreso than say, ancient Rome. It was an empire by grand design, but never got completely off the ground thanks to the free peoples of the galaxy who would oppose it.


----------



## Droogie (May 18, 2002)

Oh, and here is MY opinion of Ep II, in case anyone is still reading this thread. For all of you troopers who've gotten to page 12, THANK YOU!


I will be concise....

Breathtaking, enjoyable, over-the-top, epileptic-seizure-causing visuals. Someone might need to tell Lucas that less is more, but I guess if he had 21st century technology in 1977,  ep 4 to 6 would have the same sensory overload.



Main beef: Poor acting and script. Abyssmal direction. I can't believe this is the same guy who directed American Graffiti. And the excuse that "ep 4-6 didn't have stellar acting either" doesn't hold up with me. The acting and directing in those films were far superior than ep II, IMO. Especially ESB. Lucas' rustiness behind the camera truly detracts from ep 2. I have to agree with some professional critics and say that Lucas has truly lost the human touch. Before, it was all about the characters, having an adventure through this fantastic setting. Now the fantastic setting is the main character. 

But despite this, I still feel that the movie delivers. As previously mentioned, I can't stop thinking about this movie, and I wanna see it again. Kinda like pizza. Its terrible. But ohhhh so good. 

Comments:
Chris Lee Rulz. At one point during the saber battle, I swear I thought I saw him do his classic Dracula Sneer. It was creepy. Loved it.

The jedi battle in the arena was swell....even tho 75% of that scene was hijacked by Threepio's stupid antics. Excuse me, WHY is he in this film again?


----------



## EricNoah (May 18, 2002)

spacecrime.com said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Another way to look at it is that Yoda doesn't use the Force unless he has to. Contrast this with Anakin, who thinks using the Force is fun and does so whenever possible. *




I recall this very issue being raised in one of the New Order novels.  Mara Jade and Anakin Solo are on some planet somewhere, and Anakin's natural instinct is to use the force to do everything -- lift stuff, etc., when he's perfectly capable of doing it himself.  Mara instructs him to not use the force, and so he does some sort of manual labor without it.  He draws this conclusion:  over-reliance on the force causes you to underestimate those who don't use the force, because even "normal" people are capable of remarkable things.  When you live as "normal" as possible, you both appreciate your fellow man (woman/rodian/etc.) more, and you are better equipped to deal with foes as well.


----------



## hong (May 18, 2002)

Droogie said:
			
		

> *
> Well, the napoleonic "empire" lasted only 15 years, and the "third reich" lasted only 5. *




The Third Reich actually lasted closer to 10 years, if you start from Hitler's election as Chancellor. But who's counting? 



> *In fact, I think Hitler's Germany is a perfect analogy for the Galactic Empire, moreso than say, ancient Rome. It was an empire by grand design, but never got completely off the ground thanks to the free peoples of the galaxy who would oppose it. *




That's one way of looking at it, but given the well-known parallels between SW and eastern religion and spiritualism, it still feels a bit odd to me. Asian (and especially Chinese) history is filled with empires that lasted centuries, usually becoming old, corrupt and decrepit before being swept from power. I'd have thought these would be better analogies to the Galactic Empire than Nazi Germany.


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (May 18, 2002)

*Ok, time to vent some wrath!    *

Edena_of_Neith here.

  And I say ...

  Anakin Skywalker is great, and it stinks he dies at the end of Episode 6.

  Why is Anakin Skywalker cool, neat, great, a real hero, and likeable?
  Because I say so, that's why!
  My opinion is that he is all of these things!

  And so, there is only one thing to do, folks ...

  Return of the Jedi must be remade, so that Anakin Skywalker LIVES.
  And, if the Rebel Alliance doesn't like the fact Anakin lives, then they have to deal with him, Luke, Leia (who would stand by her father), Han Solo (who is in love with Leia), Chewbacca, and all of their allies.
  Methinks I know who'd win that battle, and it ain't the Rebel Alliance!

  I think Anakin deserves to live, at the end of Episode 6.

  That business about Palpatine's lightning killing him - Luke withstood it for 30 seconds or more, and 7 seconds of it kills Anakin ... very fault machinery for Anakin?  More likely very hard to believe.)

  Now, everyone is perfectly able, and in their right, to disagree with me.

  Who deserves to live?

  A Jedi Council so ingrained in their ways they cannot imagine someone stealing a star chart from their own library?
  Of course they could not possibly conceive of such simple things.
  For that matter, they cannot perceive Palpatine's darkness when confronting him, face to face.
  For THAT matter, they cannot spend the money (and don't tell me they didn't have enough money!) to free the mother of one of their own from slavery.
  For THAT MATTER, they could not be bothered to even ALLOW a poor child to visit his enslaved mother for ten years.

  FOR THAT MATTER, they state:  Thou shalt not hate, fear, or love.

  Hate and fear are the Dark Side, yes.
  Doesn't that make love the Light Side?
  However, we mustn't have emotions.  We mustn't feel like human beings.  We must be psychopaths.
  We mustn't own anything.  We musn't fulfill our own human (or inhuman) needs. 
  We gotta do exactly what we are told, and know Our Place (as Obi-Wan put it.)

  Nevermind that Anakin has a metaclorine count higher than Yoda's.
  Nevermind that he is extremely important, and even they - in their idiocy - know that.
  Nevermind that they could have done things to help his mother, and not sat in their lofty tower in Coruscant until their brains rotted.
  Nevermind that they could have cared.

  But, of course, these are the Good Guys.
  Anakin becomes the Bad Guy.
  He must die for it.

  I say, rewrite some parts of Episodes 4, 5, and 6.

  Either that, or give me a VERY GOOD REASON, in Episode 3, for believing Anakin deserves to die at the end of Episode 6.

  Because right now, I am thinking Anakin got the raw deal, all the way around, from a bunch of idiots and incompetents (no offense, Yoda, but you expressed the very fear, in Episode 1, that you preach against so much.)

  I'm rooting for Anakin.  Go Anakin!

  Now here is a REAL rebel, not a pretender, like some of those in the Rebel Alliance.

  These are my feelings.  
  And they won't change.

  However, this is not a troll.
  If you believe differently than I do, that's great.
  Say so, and you will receive no flames from me.

  I shall reserve my flames for those idiot Jedi, and the idiot Senate, and that idiot Jar Jar whose vote - singlehandedly - played the key role in creating the Empire.

  Funny thing - I LIKED Jar Jar Binks in Episode I.
  I must be the ONLY one who did.

  But not now.
  Silliness and stupidity are one thing - casting the vote that killed billions of people and brought about the Empire, and gave victory into the hands of Palpatine - that is not funny, humorous, or likable.

  It is sickening, horrifying, and Jar Jar utterly betrayed Amidala, who never would have voted that way, made it clear she would not have - and I hope the Emperor personally roasts Jar Jar to a fine well done state with his lightning bolts.

  Edena_of_Neith

  P:S  

  And no, I do not sympathize with the Sand People.  If they must create a society that abducts, tortures, multilates, and thus kills innocent women (and, by implication, children), without cause, reason, or anything other than pure savagery, then they should expect retaliation in kind.


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (May 18, 2002)

*Comparisons*

And yes, the comparison between the Galactic Republic and Weimar Germany is overwhelming and obvious.

  It was obvious about 10 minutes into Episode I, and In Your Face obvious halfway through Episode I.

  And it is sad.
  It is devastatingly sad.
  Some of us remember Real World History, and obviously George Lucas remembers.

  Amidala said, to paraphrase, in Episode II:  If people stop believing in democracy, the institutions of democracy will fail.

  People did stop believing in democracy, IRL, in a most horrifying and ghastly way, in 1932, in Germany.

  That collapse, that failure of belief in the tenets of democracy, the institutions of democracy, would go on to kill 80 million people, reduce large parts of the real world to ruin and ash, produce the largest massacres of innocent people ever in world history, and ultimately produce the weapon that might very well destroy the Earth one day.


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (May 18, 2002)

*A respectful disagreement*

Posted by Eric Noah:

  I recall this very issue being raised in one of the New Order novels. Mara Jade and Anakin Solo are on some planet somewhere, and Anakin's natural instinct is to use the force to do everything -- lift stuff, etc., when he's perfectly capable of doing it himself. Mara instructs him to not use the force, and so he does some sort of manual labor without it. 

  He draws this conclusion: over-reliance on the force causes you to underestimate those who don't use the force, because even "normal" people are capable of remarkable things. When you live as "normal" as possible, you both appreciate your fellow man (woman/rodian/etc.) more, and you are better equipped to deal with foes as well.

  Comment:

  I do not disagree with the second paragraph.
  I am not sure that Anakin did draw this conclusion, but since I am not sure, I have no opinion.

  However, I believe Mara was in the wrong, IF the implication is that the Force can be overused, in the sense of Anakin overusing it to telekinesis things around.

  I say that, if you have legs, you use them.
  You walk.  You run.  You kick the soccer ball.

  I say that, if you have the Force, you use it.
  Telekinesis all you want.  
  Anyone who ever had to carry a piano up a flight of steps could tell you the Force would have come in handy here!
  And don't spare the lightsabre.  Use it, or lose it - practice, practice, and then practice some more.
  Feel the Force, and use it - all the time, altogether.

  I never saw Yoda doing much physically - he could not be bothered to walk around, when technology could conveniently carry him!!
  And yet Yoda proved, in the end, to be the greatest Force-fencer of all.

  In a society of such advanced science, give me the pills (they are inventing such pills IRL, by the way - check the news) that bring strength and energy.
  Give me the discipline to use that strength and energy from using the Force - THAT takes strength and discipline all of it's own (it is not a lazy act to telekinesis things like fruit!).

  And so, if the point is that Anakin overused the Force (and this is implied, when Anakin states Obi-Wan would have chastised him for levitating said fruit) is nonsense.

  Then again, Obi-Wan would later admit (in Episode 6) that he was quite the incompetent teacher.
  I must respectfully AGREE with Obi-Wan Kenobi, on his self-assessment.


----------



## Mouseferatu (May 18, 2002)

In case anyone's still reading, my review, as posted in my Livejournal...


So the lights went down, the previews rolled, and the 20th Century Fox logo came on...

Drum roll...  And the music starts.

And despite the relative disappointment of Phantom Menace, despite my attempts not to get my hopes up, I found the goofy grin creeping over my face again.  I couldn't help it.  At least for a few minutes, for the duration of the opening crawl if nothing else, it was Star Wars again.

And now that it's over?

I couldn't shake that grin; for most of the movie, I was smiling like an idiot.  Lucas has absolutely redeemed himself.

It's not a perfect movie, and if you go in expecting a perfect movie, you're doomed to disappointment.  Some of the dialogue, particularly when Anakin is trying to be romantic, is still painfully--well, Lucas.  Some of 3PO's comic relief got to be too much and annoying; it's like he picked up the slack from Jar-Jar.  (Yes, that means JJ has very little screen time, and what time he has isn't nearly as annoying as he was.  In fact, he's almost a tragic character now...)  And portions of the movie--from, say, 20% in to about 50% in--are a little slow in places.  (Not that it's slow throughout that time, just that certain scenes are slow.)

But you know what?  It's still absolutely Star Wars.  It's still worth watching.  And it's still got numerous action scenes that will, even if you think you're jaded to today's special effects, make your jaw drop.  While none of the fights are as acrobatically impressive as Darth Maul from Phantom Menace, they're just as good--or better--in other ways.

Those scenes we've seen in the trailers and commercials, where Anakin is whining and being petulent.  They _work_.  Forget the commercials and watch them _in context_, with other things going on around them, and they make absolute sense.  I thought the actor (name escapes me at the moment) did an excellent job.

Jango Fett kicks ass.  Obi-wan kicks ass.  Mace Windu kicks mega-ass.

But rule number one: never, _ever_ piss off the little green guy.  And I don't mean Kermit.

There are three true compliments I could give a movie like this.

I could say I'm going to see it again.

I could say that I'm actually upset that I have to wait three years for the next one.

I could say that we have Star Wars back.

I went into this movie hoping I'd be able to say at least one of those.  But you know what?  They're all three true.

Oh, and John Williams is still God.


----------



## Lichtenhart (May 18, 2002)

I just came to add my reviews, but Dr Midnight before has already explained perfectly how I feel. Thank you, Doc. 

Instead, I'll answer to Edena. IMHO, The Force is not something you own. It's something that flows in every living being, so when you use it, you draw it from them. You have to use it only if it's necessary, because it's not yours. That's why the jedi teach compassion over all things, and that's why the whole balance issue is so important. And that's why The Dark Side is so evil, because it steals the force of life from every living being.


----------



## Chairman_Kaga (May 18, 2002)

*Theory that fits...*

Palaptine is a clone...Darth Sidious is manipulating him.  Hence why the Council cannot detect the Drak Side when it is 3 feet from them.

Darth Sidious is Jedi Master Sipherdias (sp?), the one who supposedly died years and years ago but yet ordered the clone army from Kamino...

After watching this three times already and waiting for show number 4, I've got the feeling that I am on to something here.


----------



## Dr Midnight (May 18, 2002)

Crap, Kaga... The first part was my theory, but that second part I'd never given thought to. Sidious, Sipherdious (sp?). Wow. Makes too much sense, and adds a whole new tasty mouthful to chew on for a while. I wonder...


----------



## Psion (May 18, 2002)

hong said:
			
		

> *That's one way of looking at it, but given the well-known parallels between SW and eastern religion and spiritualism, it still feels a bit odd to me. Asian (and especially Chinese) history is filled with empires that lasted centuries, usually becoming old, corrupt and decrepit before being swept from power. I'd have thought these would be better analogies to the Galactic Empire than Nazi Germany. *




Saying it should be like China because the Jedi resemble eastern mysticism is a bit of the tail wagging the dog if you ask me. China has been a monolithic empire from before Christ, with only a few short breaks. China continues as a empire because it has historically been one for a long time and the big, bureacratic empire has always been regarded as the desirable stat of being by its populace, not because of the presence of Taoism and Buddhism.


----------



## Psion (May 18, 2002)

*Re: Ok, time to vent some wrath!    *



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> *Edena_of_Neith here.
> 
> And I say ...
> 
> ...




Okay Bugaboo, how did you get Edena's password?




> *That business about Palpatine's lightning killing him - Luke withstood it for 30 seconds or more, and 7 seconds of it kills Anakin ... very fault machinery for Anakin?  More likely very hard to believe.)*




He rolled a crit against Darth Vader and it bypassed his VP. DUH!


----------



## Psion (May 18, 2002)

Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> *IMHO, The Force is not something you own. It's something that flows in every living being, so when you use it, you draw it from them. You have to use it only if it's necessary, because it's not yours. That's why the jedi teach compassion over all things, and that's why the whole balance issue is so important. And that's why The Dark Side is so evil, because it steals the force of life from every living being. *




So dark side = defiling, light side = preserving. Interesting.


----------



## Zhure (May 18, 2002)

*Re: Theory that fits...*



			
				Chairman_Kaga said:
			
		

> *Palaptine is a clone...Darth Sidious is manipulating him.  Hence why the Council cannot detect the Drak Side when it is 3 feet from them.
> 
> Darth Sidious is Jedi Master Sipherdias (sp?), the one who supposedly died years and years ago but yet ordered the clone army from Kamino... *




This goes well with my theory that Anakin is also a clone of Darth Sidious, implanted in Shmi with her mind "Dark Force cleansed" of the event. 

Thus, Anakin is a clone of the Emperor and Luke is the son of the Emperor. Worst case, Palpatine is the actual father of Anakin and the grandfather of Luke.

(My theory goes that the clones are slowly losing their efficacy due to continued replication and he needs new genetic material. He plans on using the body of Anakin as the new host of his evil soul when Anakin reaches maturity [no sense in going through puberty again], but then Anakin gets Jedi training and later on gets badly mutilated in the lava accident after his battle with Obi-Wan Kenobi. Rather than transplant his essence into the mauled Darth Vader, the Emperor continues with a new clone....)

Greg


----------



## Psion (May 18, 2002)

*Re: Re: Theory that fits...*



			
				Zhure said:
			
		

> *This goes well with my theory that Anakin is also a clone of Darth Sidious, implanted in Shmi with her mind "Dark Force cleansed" of the event.
> 
> Thus, Anakin is a clone of the Emperor and Luke is the son of the Emperor. Worst case, Palpatine is the actual father of Anakin and the grandfather of Luke.
> 
> (My theory goes that the clones are slowly losing their efficacy due to continued replication and he needs new genetic material. He plans on using the body of Anakin as the new host of his evil soul when Anakin reaches maturity [no sense in going through puberty again], but then Anakin gets Jedi training and later on gets badly mutilated in the lava accident after his battle with Obi-Wan Kenobi. Rather than transplant his essence into the mauled Darth Vader, the Emperor continues with a new clone....)*




That's an interesting and oddly compelling theory, Ahure.


----------



## Wicht (May 18, 2002)

*Re: Ok, time to vent some wrath!    *



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> *Edena_of_Neith here.
> 
> And I say ...
> 
> ...




From a Christian perspective this would be true.  Love is the ultimate and ideal goal of Christian relationships.

However the spiritual doctrines of Star Wars have far more to do with Buddhism in which detachment, not love, is the ultimate spiritual goal (or one of them).  

The following story illustrates this ideal


> _The Buddha's teaching on rejection of desire and suppression of emotional attachment is seen perhaps best in the story of a monk named Sangamaji.  Like Siddhartha [aka. Buddha], Sangamaji had left his wife and family to search for truth as a homeless wanderer.  While sitting in meditation beneath a tree, his wife approached him and lay their child before him.  She asked her husband to nourish her and their child.  Sangamaji remained silent until finally the woman took the child and left.
> 
> Siddhartha, after observing the incident, reportedly commented, "He [Sangamaji] feels no pleasure when she comes, no sorrow when she goes: a true Brahman released from passion." _


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## wolff96 (May 18, 2002)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> *When yoda was fighting, it was sorta like he was a mage with Bull's Strength, True Strike, Haste, Cat's Grace, etc cast on him. He can be a monster in combat, but it's probably very draining on him, as he has to tap the force heavily. He seemed to be very exausted afterwords, you'll note. *




Funny you should mention that...  My first thought on seeing the movie was: "WOW! Yoda just cast Tenser's Transformation!" 

GREAT scene. That whole movie was very well done. I've got to agree that C-3PO was a tad annoying during the Jedi/Robot battle -- Lucas using an established character that no one will complain about to fill in for Jar Jar as comic relief -- but I was astonished at how good the rest of the movie was.

I especially liked the clone army and the "prototype" versions of the Empire's battle gear -- the AT-AT like walkers, the ships that were reminiscent of the Star Destroyers...

Well, I'm off -- I have to go see it a few more times.


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## Trevalon Moonleirion (May 18, 2002)

I really didn't like Hayden Christiansen very much...not sure if it was his acting or the lines...but he just didn't...didn't .... I'm not sure, but it didn't please me.  

As for the rest of the movie, Amidala certainly isn't hard on the eyes, the action scenes were good, Jar-Jar was nearly completely gone, and Yoda.  My GOD!  Taht was the best fight scene I have seen in a LONG, LONG time.

Now it's question time...i'm not anywhere near a die-hard Star Wars fan so I need some clarification...
Is Senator Palpatine the Emperor from V and VI?  Is Senator Palpatine Darth Sidious?


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## Lizard (May 18, 2002)

hong said:
			
		

> *
> 
> The problem seems to be that Eps 1-3 take place a short time ago (relative to Ep 4) in a galaxy far, far away, but the thrust of the storyline and the character archetypes need it to take place a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.
> 
> Speaking of which, is it really true that Ep 3 will take place 20 years before Ep 4? An Evil Empire that lasts 20 years is pretty pathetic, if you ask me. The Qing dynasty lasted three centuries, and even the USSR lasted close to a century! *




The short life of the Empire was established back in the first movie...Obi Wan made it clear the whle thing occured only a generation ago. Even the Star Wars novelization, where Palpatine was named, made that clear. The Empire was short-lived.


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## Trevalon Moonleirion (May 18, 2002)

_originally posted by Edena_of_Neith_


> And yes, the comparison between the Galactic Republic and Weimar Germany is overwhelming and obvious.



If you're going to compare the republic to Hitler's Germany then you shouldn't call it the Weimar Republic...  Hitler's spectacular rise to power in Germany was greatly due to the disasterous economic state OF the Weimar Republic.

So basically what I'm saying is, Weimar was weak and REPLACED BY Hitler...easy misnaming i suppose.

Sorry... total history nerd, right here!


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## Derulbaskul (May 18, 2002)

I was rather disappointed with AOTC, although I really enjoyed the novel even though I'm not normally a fan of R A Salvatore.

Thinking back, though, I think part of the problem for me was that I left the cinema feeling like I needed to know more. I think I would have been better off waiting for Episode III before I saw AOTC, just like I didn't see Empire Strikes Back until The Return of the Jedi was released.


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## Derulbaskul (May 18, 2002)

Trevalon Moonleirion said:
			
		

> *originally posted by Edena_of_Neith
> 
> If you're going to compare the republic to Hitler's Germany then you shouldn't call it the Weimar Republic...  Hitler's spectacular rise to power in Germany was greatly due to the disasterous economic state OF the Weimar Republic.
> So basically what I'm saying is, Weimar was weak and REPLACED BY Hitler...easy misnaming i suppose.
> Sorry... total history nerd, right here!  *




Similarly, much of the philosophy of the Empire is exactly the same as the theory of government espoused in Singapore. The Singapore government gets away with it because people are afraid of the chaos and disorder of the 1960s being repeated, plus it's hard to compete with the government in a single party state.

The only difference is that Yoda (or is that anti-Yoda?) is our Emperor!


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## Simon Magalis (May 18, 2002)

hong said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Asian (and especially Chinese) history is filled with empires that lasted centuries, usually becoming old, corrupt and decrepit before being swept from power. I'd have thought these would be better analogies to the Galactic Empire than Nazi Germany. *




Actually, Nazi Germany is probably THE source of inspiration for the Empire. A Chancellor who uses political conflicts to cause himself to be give supreme authority, quickly builds a powerful army and secret police (and Hitler did indeed have Stormtroopers) and is quickly overthrown because it is simply too aggressive and evil to be allowed to exist. Compare the Emperor's arrival in Jedi to a Nazi rally in Nuremberg and you will see what I mean. Of course, there are other sources, Asian culture being one, but I think the Nazi regime is the primary inspiration for the Galatic Empire. Both are notoriously racist as well... I forgot that one.


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## Simon Magalis (May 18, 2002)

*Re: Theory that fits...*



			
				Chairman_Kaga said:
			
		

> *Palaptine is a clone...Darth Sidious is manipulating him.  Hence why the Council cannot detect the Drak Side when it is 3 feet from them.
> 
> Darth Sidious is Jedi Master Sipherdias (sp?), the one who supposedly died years and years ago but yet ordered the clone army from Kamino...
> 
> After watching this three times already and waiting for show number 4, I've got the feeling that I am on to something here. *




You may have a very good theory here! I have heard that Lucas is laughing at how everyone thinks its so obvious that Palpatine and Sidious are the same. Obviously the same actor plays them, but the clone thing.... hmmmm. I like it.


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## Piratecat (May 18, 2002)

Thread closed due to length - please contine the discussion here!

http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13113


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