# Why _DON'T_ You Buy Dragon Magazine?



## Erik Mona

I'm about half-way through a much needed vacation, so of course I'm sitting here thinking about work.

I know many of you _do_ buy Dragon regularly, and for that I send you a hearty holdiay cheer and a simple statement: thanks.

But I also know that many of you don't buy Dragon, and I'd like to know why. Over my 20+ years as a D&D player, I've had "on" periods and "off" periods with the magazine, so I know what sorts of things went into my personal decision not to buy Dragon, but I'd like to know yours.

If I can make some changes to the magazine to make it a more attractive purchase, there's a chance we all go away happy. 

So, if you're _not_ a regular customer of Dragon magazine (let's say you buy fewer than three issues annually), please take a minute or two to answer the following questions. 

1. Why don't you buy the magazine?

2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?

I very much appreciate your time and attention.

Thanks,

Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon Magazine (and Dungeon too!)
Still on vacation, still working


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## Ogrork the Mighty

I used to be a subscriber but I stopped years ago when too much non-D&D material seeped in; I hated it.

I've never resubscribed b/c I've found the stuff in Dragon magazine to be a little unbalanced at times and I've got so much crunchy stuff from other sources that I don't need more. I also have the perception that the magazine keeps doing the same themes over and over again, just with different rules.

Some things I liked about Dragon (don't know if the current incarnation has these or not) were the computer game reviews for fantasy games, the miniature reviews (not really appropriate anymore), and the DMing articles.

I'm a subscriber to Dungeon and I love it. It's a vast improvement over previous versions and, even though I don't get to run most of the adventures, I find them to be an enjoyable read and a great source of ideas (and maps! Gotta love the maps!).


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## shock the monkey

I like stuff on Greyhawk, but I haven't seen much of it in Dragon of late, so I let my subscription run out.

I've been hanging on to Dungeon, though, as that seems to be the place where Greyhawk shines.

Can't wait for that map.

*grins*


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## jmucchiello

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> But I also know that many of you don't buy Dragon, and I'd like to know why.



I hope this doesn't come off wrong but I think I stopped buying Dragon (and I stopped before 3E came out) because I think I outgrew it. There comes a time when you start seeing the same old articles in Dragon. Go into the archives and pull out an old issue at random. Nothing in your current issue is more innovative, nothing in the old issue is useless (with a little work). They are the same.

Dragon is for people new to the hobby. They want guidance and Dragon gives them that. It's a common point of reference when you want to talk about D&D with someone. But me? I don't need to have those conversations anymore. I've had them. I have my gaming group. I can disappear into my own D&D world and never look at another article or expansion again. This comes with familiarity.

And yet, I post on this website. So maybe I do want to with a community. Dragon is a monthly mag, websites are 24/7 whenever I feel the urge, any time of day, from home or from work. There is nothing in Dragon that I couldn't get from ENWorld by itself and there are dozens of other websites with even more material should I seek it.

Need a new prestige class or feat? I can go to house rules.
Got a rules question? I don't write the sage, I go to the rules forum and ask around.
Need DMing advice? Post on general.
Need plot help? NPCs? Inspiration? It's all here or elsewhere on the web.

I personally don't need those things. But if I did, they're here.

Dragon also has "official"ness. I haven't needed that since I wrote made up my first monsters in 80s.

All that's left I think is tie-ins with WotC properties: Forgotten Realms and Eberron, etc. Again, I don't need official FR or Eb stuff. I can make it up if I play in those worlds (and I do play in FR). And the web still gets me stuff for these places. SKR has "unofficial" Realms material on his website. I'm sure there are others if I cared to look.

For me, Dragon cannot compete with high traffic, low noise, dedicated websites about D&D.

What could draw me in? Open Content. But that's only because I publish. If I didn't publish that wouldn't affect my decision at all. But I'm putting it out there for you.

Hope that came off well. And Erik, I do buy Dungeon, so I am a customer. Just not a Dragon customer.


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## Trainz

I bought Dragon back in my 1st edition days because, frankly, that's all there was. The TSR rule books and Dragon.

Now that WotC releases a LOT of material, I have more than enough material for my games. If I bought Dragon, I would probably use one or two items in my games from each, and after a few years, my games would need the access of a good dozen hard covers and twenty or so Dragon mags. That would be too cluttered for my campaign.

So it's really not because of content (I haven't bought Dragon in a decade), because I frankly don't know what's in it currently.


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## Angcuru

Well, I've read through a few issues of Dragon.  I agree with Ogrork that the content is generally unbalanced.  Dungeon however, I do like.  A great source of inspiration and suchlike.  Lots of good content.

I don't subscribe to either because I don't do enough gaming to put that content to use.  In fact, I do almost NO gaming lately.  Oh, the tragedy.  When I do eventually get back into regular gaming, I think I will likely subscribe.  to Dungeon.


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## Crothian

It never got used in game.  Some nice ideas and neat articles but I just never have had anyone want to bother looking through them to use anything.  Also, its hard to find something in them.  I'll remember a feat or class but will have no idea which one its from and waste lots of time looking through them.


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## Thorin Stoutfoot

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> So, if you're _not_ a regular customer of Dragon magazine (let's say you buy fewer than three issues annually), please take a minute or two to answer the following questions.
> 
> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?



1. I can't buy it for crunch. Dragon magazine has a bad reputation for unbalanced prestige classes and other feats. But even if the crunchy material was balanced, it would still be difficult to introduce it into a group unless the all the players had a subscription, and that's just too much to ask.

2. Other material --- campaign material is iffy, since if you're already running a campaign, it's kind of hard to integrate new material unless the material fits what you're already doing. And that's going to happen less than one in 12 issues.

3. As reading material --- this will be more interesting to me, but so far as I can tell, items that are not (1) or (2) are just advertising pieces from WoTC, which I'm not interested in, since WoTC gets plenty of free, unbiased advertising from EnWorld and other such sites.

4. Advice. The DMing advice has moved to Dungeon (and I love it and am a loyal subscriber to Dungeon!).


			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?



1. Generic campaign material. The best stuff would be the kind of stuff that elaborates on what's already in the Core books? Seriously, who's Otiluke? Who was Bigby? How evil really was Vecna?

2. Plot ideas. I loved the plot ideas part of the DMG, and wouldn't mind more material along those lines.

3. Patches/additions to the Core books. For instance, the new NPC tables in the 3.5 DMG are a travesty and not nearly as useful as the NPC tables in the 3.0 DMG was. An article to fix them would get my attention.

4. Anything to flesh out a campaign. I also wouldn't mind tactical analysis of combat or the kind of stuff that's currently on the WoTC web-site running through the rules, etc.

5. A regular column titled "Behind the curtain..." that explained the design process behind certain rules and why they work that way. Heck, that could be applied to the various Campaign Settings that WOTC (and possibly 3rd party) produces. The idea here is that rather than provide me with fodder that I might or might not use, give me tools! "Give a man a fish and you'll feed him for a day..."

I guess my theme here is:

  - material that applies across all campaigns, rather than the specific theme campaign of the month
  - no crunch that's not well vetted, and even then, it'd better be crunch that can easily be added to a campaign by just one person and not require that multiple people have to have the subscription to use. (Prestige classes are right out for me)
  - fixes/patches/additional materials to 3.5's core
  - Why are things designed the way they are

Do any 3 of the above and you won't just get me as a regular reader, you'll get me as a subscriber as well.


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## GlassJaw

I already have enough crunch to choke a fiendish half-dragon druid/monk.  While I haven't bought Dragon in ages, I love Dungeon.  You can never have enough adventure ideas or cool maps IMO.  Campaign and adventure ideas are like gold.  Dragon just doesn't have those things.


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## Arcane Runes Press

Well... I buy it (to see what other writers are coming up with, and to keep up with the mag's style in case I want to submit articles again), but not with much enthusiasm.

Generally, there's not much passion in the magazine anymore. I see usable mechanics, sometimes innovative mechanics, but I don't see text with them that makes me want to use them.

The text is dry, in other words, and lacks the manic wonder that lots of the older issues had - the good natured humour and oddball enthusiasm isn't there as much, and the magazine reads more like a trade journal than a place where writers and fans come together to gush about their enthusiasms. 

I'd like to see the guidelines loosened up a bit, and see quality flavor text encouraged a little more. The monster ecologies articles are a perfect example of the leeching out of flavor. 

The ecology articles used to inspire, they told stories, they were funny or creepy or exciting. The stories that framed the stats brought me into the article, and got my mind to thinking about using the monsters in my own "stories" - on some occasions, the Ecology Of... articles turned a monster I thought was pure garbage into something I actually considered using. 

Now, to be honest, I've found myself skimming over Ecology articles entirely, because they're leached of flavor for me. This isn't a slam at the writers of those articles - the mechanics are fine, and I see kernels of good ideas in there, but I don't think they're allowed to develop the way they used to be. 

This applies to most everything in the magazine. The articles are too textbook dry, because I think Paizo has become too concerned with trying to please almost everyone with every article - and that leads to unfortunate blandness.


So what would make me happier, and encourage me to buy more? Cutting open the creative veins again. Getting a bit crazier with your articles, and a return of more pure flavor, flavor, flavor. 

Patrick Younts


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## Desdichado

Because my local public library, which is about half a mile from my house, subscribes and I can read the issues there.

Because much of what I really enjoyed about _Dragon_ in the early days of 3e (when I bought most issues that were coming out) has already been filled by some 3rd party source.  It used to fill a need in the market, but that need simply isn't there.  I sometimes wonder if it doesn't carry on out of habit and nothing else.

Too bland.  Even when I can get myself excited about the premise of many of the articles, the execution doesn't thrill me.  It's too dry.  And a related problem...

Too conservative.  Try stuff that's a little bit more out there; a little bit more daring.  Dragon material is usually so generic; so applicable across every setting.  That's probably on purpose, but I don't need to go to Dragon for that kind of stuff.  Sure, if you took chances, you wouldn't please everybody all the time, but I'd bet that you'd have more people excited to see what you'd tackled this time around.  And everything would please _somebody_.  I still don't know if I'd subscribe (see reason #1) if Dragon was more daring, but I sure as heck'd buy more issues than I do now.


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## jester47

I gave up my subscription because all the articles and kinds of articles that I bought it for got moved to dungeon.  I do subscribe to Dungeon.  Dragon, if it has somthing useful that I think I can really use, I will buy the issue.  More often than not I will read over the articles and see if anything is a must have.  If not I don't buy.  Dungeons on the other hand and DMing advice, I can always use and I am glad they are in the same mag now.  I would just like more John Four and Robin Laws articles in Dungeon. 

Aaron.


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## Erik Mona

This is good stuff. Keep it coming, folks. I really appreciate your time and feedback.

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon


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## Ry

Although I don't pick of Dragon very often, I still disagree about all the charges of its options being unbalanced.  You just can't expect to add 10 new things a month and expect them not to change the dynamics of the game.  We also shouldn't forget that D&D itself has plenty of exploits already; these just form the baseline, which is going to change if you add a lot of material.  This is especially true of Prestige Classes, which are typically specific enough that they practically _beg_ to shift the core campaign dynamics.

But I don't tend to do more than leaf through the issues; when they're good, they're typically concerning things that are very generic, (which I don't need), and occasionally they're bad, when I really, really want them to be good.  Like for Darksun - I've never used the setting, and I'm really not a fan, but I the Dragon version of Darksun was far less interesting than the original - and it could have just been a rules update to the original with some cool flavor text.  That disappointed me, because it ended up meaning I didn't even find something kind of different to export to my campaign.

I should mention, though, that I've often loved Dragon, and not to get too discouraged by the thread; it's only going to draw out negative comments, so don't think it's a general mood about the magazine.


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## jester47

Granted, a lot of the roleplay stuff like the ecologies and such might become more useful on the advent of C&C.  I know a lot of the earlier Dragon stuff will.  Looking at the current issue (327) and the last one (326) I think they have enough info in their major articles for me to pick them up.  Stuff that I can actually use in the creative process:

The Sewer article that covers real and fantastic sewers 
An article on Historical labyriths and how to use one in game
A guide to dungeon delving 
The article on Tomb design based on real world designs sounds promising
The loot Division article looks good
The article on characters that normally might not fit in a party is intrigueing

Issue 325 does not do it for me (maybe the hometown heros article) though and the one before that was neat (better zombies was good, and I liked the informative Cthulhu article), and the one before I found only marginally useful.

However if you keep up the caliber of what these last two hold, I might resubscribe.  

Aaron.


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## Jeff Wilder

Heya, Erik.

I'm probably not the demographic whose response you want, since not only _do_ I buy _Dragon_, but the recent reorganization has me buying _Dungeon_ again, too.  But I'll respond anyway, and pretend the question was, "Why could make you STOP buying _Dragon_?"

Fiction.

Nothing annoys me more than losing ten pages of gaming content in favor of ten pages of fiction.

I can -- and do -- get speculative fiction from other sources, and I would likewise be pissed off if those other sources spent ten pages of content on gaming.  If I buy a fiction magazine or anthology, I do it because I want fiction.  When I read _Dragon_, I do it because I want gaming content.

I firmly believe that the only reason _Dragon_ still publishes fiction is that y'all're afraid to ask the tough question.  Instead of asking, "Hey, do you like fiction?" or "do we have enough fiction in the magazine?" you should be asking, "Which would you rather have, fiction or more gaming content?"  I have yet to see a _Dragon_ survey ask that question, and I've been around long enough to see a _lot_ of surveys.

So, because I enjoy the rest of the magazine so much, currently the only way to drive me away from _Dragon_ would be to increase the fiction page-count.  But if my interest wanes, there will be a point at which I'll drop the magazine because of the fiction, whereas I otherwise would keep subscribing.

I want to stress that my dislike of fiction in _Dragon_ is not a comment on the _quality_ of the fiction in _Dragon_; for me, the quality is irrelevant.  I don't think it should be in the magazine at all.


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## Dave Turner

Joe Mucchiello summed it up nicely.  I've seen everything that Dragon has to offer.  The articles are all retreads in one form or another for those of us who have been around long enough.  New spells, new items, new feats, new classes, new monsters are what Dragon does, but that doesn't do it for me anymore.  Those things are arguably what D&D is and maybe my fatigue with D&D is bleeding over to Dragon.  But in a magazine devoted to D&D, I don't think that's too surprising.


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## Jeff Wilder

Crothian said:
			
		

> It never got used in game.  Some nice ideas and neat articles but I just never have had anyone want to bother looking through them to use anything.  Also, its hard to find something in them.  I'll remember a feat or class but will have no idea which one its from and waste lots of time looking through them.




This is a great point.  There would be few more useful pages in _Dragon_ every year than an update to a comprehensive index.  I'd be willing to bet that plenty of volunteers could be found for the hard work of compiling the initial index.


Jeff


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## Acid_crash

I stopped purchasing the magazine for many reasons.  

One is cost, I don't have the money to spend 7 bucks a month to get a magazine that seems to be filled with randomly put together articles that 'hopefully' make sense.  

Two is that some magazines have themes that just don't interest me (if it's about Planar travel, count me out).  

Three, sometimes the magazine is on a theme kick, but the articles in the magazine seem to harm the theme more than service it.  One example is issue 305 on Urban Adventuring.  First off, those feats in that article are crap.  Second, no article in that issue did any good for me in trying to establish an urban game.  Third, there was no How To guide in the magazine on how to create urban settings/towns/cities.  If there was, I missed it. Waste of 7 bucks.  

Many of your magazines are like this.  

The only things in your magazines I like and tend to use are the Class Act type articles towards the back.  Other types of articles include the Campaign Act articles similar in issues 299, 301, and 303.  (What happened to those?)  The best articles for me are those that best teach how to do something, and not those that just give me a city in the deep abyss, it's history, and hope that I use it.  

Crap like that will surely persuade me to keep my 7 bucks.


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## reanjr

I AM currently a subscriber, but that will probably end when my subscription runs out.  For me, most of what is entertaining to read has been done already.  And most of what's useful is impossible to find.  Having an online searchable index of all the articles would be VERY useful.

For instance, being able to browse prestige classes, spells, or feats, with a one or two sentence description and issue and page # would be a great asset and IMO, would make the magazine much more useful.

In addition, I know it's been said before, but I'm in the less rules, more ideas camp and the no fiction camp.


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## Acid_crash

wilder_jw said:
			
		

> Fiction.
> 
> Nothing annoys me more than losing ten pages of gaming content in favor of ten pages of fiction.
> 
> I can -- and do -- get speculative fiction from other sources, and I would likewise be pissed off if those other sources spent ten pages of content on gaming.  If I buy a fiction magazine or anthology, I do it because I want fiction.  When I read _Dragon_, I do it because I want gaming content.
> 
> I firmly believe that the only reason _Dragon_ still publishes fiction is that y'all're afraid to ask the tough question.  Instead of asking, "Hey, do you like fiction?" or "do we have enough fiction in the magazine?" you should be asking, "Which would you rather have, fiction or more gaming content?"  I have yet to see a _Dragon_ survey ask that question, and I've been around long enough to see a _lot_ of surveys.
> 
> So, because I enjoy the rest of the magazine so much, currently the only way to drive me away from _Dragon_ would be to increase the fiction page-count.  But if my interest wanes, there will be a point at which I'll drop the magazine because of the fiction, whereas I otherwise would keep subscribing.
> 
> I want to stress that my dislike of fiction in _Dragon_ is not a comment on the _quality_ of the fiction in _Dragon_; for me, the quality is irrelevant.  I don't think it should be in the magazine at all.




Because it needed to be said again.  And again.  And again.  

I forgot about this until I read this, but I can't stand fiction in a gaming magazine.  Oh I so hate it.  The only time I liked it was in the issue about Westeros.  But now that Guardians is releasing A Game of Thrones next year, your issue is pointless.


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## Sado

I'm surprise no one has mentioned price.  I have a subscription to Guns and Ammo for under $15 a year. Several computer game magazines I get cost the same as Dragon per issue but cost around $20 a year (without the bonus CD).  Last time I checked Dragon was almost $40.

Having said that, there just seems to be a lot of stuff that doesn't interest me (although a good bit of it does). The magazine tries to be all things to all gamers, so naturally there's stuff in there that not everyone's gonna like. Can't be helped. 

I have specific gripes, but I'm not at home where I can flip through some magazines for examples. I'll get back to you.


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## jester47

Yes, I agree, one of the reasons I don't buy it blind (that is your goal right) anymore is because I can never remember where anything is so to use feat/spell/PrC/Item articles it becomes a major task to use.  A comprehensive index is becoming a must.  Such a thing should state if the article in question was written for 3.0 or 3.5.  A comprehensive online or print index would definately boot sales of back issues also.  Also, since the website is password protected and you can differentiate subscribers from the non-subscribers, you could make the Index subscriber only.  But that might shoot you in the foot when it comes to back issue sales (I seem really convinced about the index will sell back issues thing... hrrm).

Aaron.


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## cybertalus

I subscribe, but I have whole issues I never read, and I swear to myself every year that I'm not gonna renew.

Arcane Runes Press nailed most of the reasons I've lost interest, but I'll add one more.  The cartoons aren't funny anymore.  Dragonmirth was often funny.  The caption contest usually produced at least one good laugh, even if it wasn't from the first place winner.  And April used to be the best issue of the year.

It also doesn't help that the articles are sometimes difficult to read because there isn't enough contrast between the text and the background or because of light text on a dark background.  That may sound like a petty thing, but if I have to strain my eyes to read an article, I'm gonna skip it, even if everyone on EN World posts to say that it's the best article in the history of D&D.

Oh, and I also miss Ed Greenwood.

And Erik, thanks for not only listenening to us, but asking our opinions in the first place.  You did that a lot at Polyhedron and Dungeon, and it did a lot to improve my view of the magazine, even when there were things I wasn't terribly fond of.


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## greymist

Well Erik, right now I _am_ a subscriber of Dragon, but I really doubt I will be renewing my subscription, so I figure I qualify to post here. 

 The oldest Dragon on my book shelf is around #58, and I have almost every magazine up to issue #200. I stopped buying when my gaming dropped off and I was tired or reading a WOTC catalogue. 

 I started up again a little while after 3E came out, and for the first time ever, decided to subscribe...and then 3.E appeared only a few months later! I was really put off, as I had no intention of converting to 3.5 (still haven't). 

 Thorin Stoutfoot and Arcane Runes Press pretty well cover my concerns: 

 I don't have a lot of use for pages and pages of unbalanced feats and prestige classes or articles on how to out-munchkin your fellow PCs. In other words, I miss the flavour stuff. I would renew if I saw more articles that provided me with generic-setting ideas for my game....how my rogue can use equipment in new ways beats the heck out of how to max out the damage that my rogue can inflict!

 Since Paizo just revamped both Dungeon and Dragon, I doubt that major changes will be made any time soon so as I said I expect to let my Dragon subscription lapse. I have not looked at a Dungeon in years, maybe it will prove more interesting to me.


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## Darren

I don't buy it because there simply isn't enough stuff that is useful, and the stuff that isn't useful rarely has the virtue of at least being entertaining to read.  I have little interest in new spells/feats/PrCs or reading about them.  I don't use miniatures, and if I want to read fiction I'll buy a book.  I rarely need sage advice - the FAQ, a quick search through a messageboard (like this one) or a houserule is generally sufficient.  Ecology is hit and miss.  Sometimes there is an ecology article that looks interesting, but a single article isn't enough to generate a purchase.  And so on.

I do look at Dragon each month in the store so see if there is something I really want, but the last issue I purchased was #314, and I was profoundly disappointed.  It looked promising on the shelf, but about halfway through I decided I simply wasn't part of Dragon's core market, and perhaps never would be.  I never realized that elemental magic could be so dry or afflicted with so many spells/feats/PrCs I would never use.

For improvements, I'll just point at Thorin's post.  I doubt that it would result in monthly purchases for me, just less infrequent purchases.  As a player, I'm quite happy with just core materials, with something from a none-core source occasionally thrown in for flavor.  As a DM, there is some interesting flavor in Dragon occasionally, but rarely worth wading through all the issues just to use it for a few NPCs.

(But I really like Dungeon.  Plots, maps, locations, NPCs, all just waiting to be used or be to mined for ideas for my own designs.  There is simply more pages of things I'm likely to use there, and even if I don't end up running an adventure with a character named 'Lumbie,' it was still a good read.  I suppose I'm just more interested in good adventures and running a good game than finding the latest and greatest PC race and the feats and PrCs with which to twink it out.)


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## Shade

I've been a subscriber since early 3E, so I will follow wilder_jw and tell you why I'd let my subscription lapse.

1.)  Knight vs. Samurai style articles.  That issue had me seriously pondering dropping the magazine the next time renewal was up.   In fact, most of the post-"Dragon Unleashed" issues have excited me about as much as junk mail.   About the only things I've really liked lately are the revised monsters from past editions in Winning Races (grippli, lupins), the occasional new monster, the comics, and Sage Advice.

2.)  I'm going to second wilder_jw on fiction.   I've never read a single fiction article in Dragon and never intend to (and I was a 1E subscriber for many years and purchased the archive on CD-ROM).  Those pages might as well be advertisements for their usefulness to me.

3.)  Maintaining that Dragon be "player-focused", at the expense of DMs.  I'll be honest with you, the first thing I look for in a new issue is new monsters, followed by planar material and anything that brings back something great from past editions of the game.

4.)  Increasing amounts of Eberron material.  I know it has every right and reason to be in there, but I have no interest in that setting and would much rather see space devoted to any of the settings of past editions.   I realize I'm probably in the minority on this one.

5.)  More and more focus on educating new players on the simplest of ideas of the game.   I don't need an article to tell me that I can deal more damage with a greataxe than a short sword, or that a party should have a cleric.

Thanks for listening and striving to improve the magazine!


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## Three_Haligonians

I have never bought an issue of Dragon.  I have friends who collect them, and I sometimes peruse them.  The only time I considered buying Dragon was back in the days when Knights of the Dinner Table was published.  I really liked that comic!   I know I could buy the comic book, but I felt it was a rip off that something that once came free in Dragon, was now published seperately under the same company.  And then Phil and Dixie went away.

Anyway, aside from my love of the funnies, the reason I would NEVER buy a Dragon now is the blatant recycling of artwork.  I mean, come on, give me a break, Dragon is an expensive magazine, and all I see in it anymore is reused pictures of Mailee.  I think you guys had some really good artwork on the go for awhile there.  I'm a girl, so I get tired of seeing chainmail bikinis, and their ilk, but it seemed Dragon was moving away from that.  But then the new design came out, and it looks to me as though you don't have any artists on the payroll anymore.

I just feel that with the new design came less artwork, less diversity of content (seeing as how some content seems to have shifted over to Dungeon), and that friggin' Class Acts article.  That article would be great if it had a theme each month.  And on top of all that, it seems (in Canada, anyway) that there's been a price increase.  The business of gearing Dungeon towards DMs and Dragon towards players just feels like a ploy to get subscribers to get both magazines, seeing as how Dm material is relavent to players and vice versa.

Anyway, sorry if I sound confrontational.  Dragon has only very recently made me angry, I think for the most part it's a great magazine.  And, if it's any consolation, I think I'm way out of your demographic, being both female and Canadian   .

R from Three Haligonians


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## zeo_evil

1. Why don't you buy the magazine?

Honestly? It has a lot to do with how much money I have to spare each month. Not only do I buy at least one new D&D book each month at about $30.00 a pop, but I am an avid wrestling fan so I often buy at least one new DVD each month as well, also at between $20.00 to $30.00 as well. Between the requirements of life (food, insurance, and rent) and some minor credit debt, unless an issue of Dragon has a direct impact on my campaign, I don't buy it. Plus, I live in Bonney Lake, Washington and have to drive to Tacoma or Federal Way to pick up the magazine. Would you drive 25 miles to buy a magazine? One thing I would suggest is increased circulation. Fred Meyer carries Star Wars Insider (Paizo) so why don't they carry Dragon? I have asked many times. If enough of us here in the NW ask, then they might.

2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?

Surprisingly, I differ from most gamers when I say I want more professional crunch. Strictly speaking, I have been playing for almost 16 years so I have plenty of fluff (looking at stacks of Dragon and old game books right now). I play Forgotten Realms. More of that would be nice. How about some more Initiate feats (Player's Guide to Faerun) from professional Realms authors like Sean K Reynolds? How many gods HAVEN'T been done yet? Otherwise, more magic items would be nice.

Edit: Yeah, no fiction.


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## Psimancer

wilder_jw said:
			
		

> Fiction. - Nothing annoys me more than losing ten pages of gaming content in favor of ten pages of fiction.



I couldn't agree more. I can honestly say I have NEVER read the fiction in Dragon. Sorry, no offence to the authors, but I don't buy Dragon for the fiction, I buy it for the RPG stuff...


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## Psimancer

jester47 said:
			
		

> A comprehensive online or print index would definately boot sales of back issues also.  Also, since the website is password protected and you can differentiate subscribers from the non-subscribers, you could make the Index subscriber only.  But that might shoot you in the foot when it comes to back issue sales (I seem really convinced about the index will sell back issues thing... hrrm).



Online Index - GREAT IDEA!
Subscriber Only - BAD IDEA!

If I lived in the US, I would subscribe, but I don't, so I don't... But I do have a standing order at my FLGS... And I really don't want to take it away from them...


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## Eremite

1. Dragon needs an index. Any time I see a thread like this I post this as a suggestion. Frankly, it has to be done if this magazine is to continue.

2. Rules material needs to be playtested. Heck, get the guys who post at the character optimisation board at WotC's website to tear any new rules content apart (just make sure you have an editor who can translate their work back into English... with spelling, grammar, syntax, punctuation etc...).

3. Fiction wastes paper.


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## Horishijin

I let my subscription lapse within the last year, and within the last week tossed out a huge stack of magazines which had collected since 3e came out.  I needed the space.

My chief complaint was that frequently the magazine was essentially an advertisement for the latest D&D hardcover to come out.  We usually got some monsters, spells, or prestige classes which didn't make it into the hardcover to act as a teaser-spoiler for the new product.  I did not like the feeling that I was paying for advertising.

Another reason is Eberron.  I have absolutely no intentions of collecting that campaign setting, and I let my subscription run when I sensed that more and more pages of the magazine where going to be spent supporting that line.


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## Angel Tarragon

I lost my subscription this year...thanks to my mom. She told me she would have sent in the check for me, but now I have to wait until at least January. I have bought too many issues of Dragon and Dungeon off the magazine shelves and have decided that I am better oof, that way I can get 12 issues of Dungeon at newstand price of about five. 

The only things that ticks me off are : 1) I just learned from Dragon 326 that Elminster's Guide to the Realms will no longer be a mothly feature. 2) Blasted fiction. 

Let me say that I have been a fan of the Forgotten Realms since 1st Edition. I will definetely miss the column.

Secondly, if I want to read fiction, I'll drudge out a dusty old book that deserves some face time.


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## Erik Mona

Again, this feedback is very helpful. I'll save up some of my responses until the thread grows a bit more, but I can't tell you how useful this thread will be to me. I really appreciate the feedback.

--Erik


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## Snotlord

I recently decided to stick to my local gamestore when my subscriptions expired. I eagerly await each new issue of Dungeon but today only buy Dragon every now and then.

I have all the crunch I need, unless I am looking for something every specific (very rarely), although new monsters is always nice. The only thing that interest me in Dragon these days is the comics (Zaragorn in great!) and FR material. I always look at the  magazine index to see is there is a cool FR article, if I find one, I buy the magazine.


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## Arkhandus

Aye, thanks for asking our opinions here.  I've enjoyed reading Dragon for the last five years, but there are certainly a few things about it that have changed over the last year or two that only seem to have diminished my interest in it, unfortunately, leaving me with less reading material some months since I don't subscribe and only buy issues that seem interesting.  You asked to hear what things cause folks to forgo buying Dragon, so my post may seem pessimistic, but I really do enjoy the mag usually. {:^D

I used to buy most new issues of Dragon after 3rd Edition came out, but couldn't afford a subscription.  Some issues just didn't seem worth getting either, as their theme was too focused on something I didn't care for (i.e. I apparently missed out on a few good articles in the Dragon and Dungeon/Polyhedron issues that advertised having Vile Content, as I didn't know they also had some good materials like Mecha Crusade, and the Vile Content label just turned me away upon seeing the issues in the bookstore).

The price is fine in my opinion, but not for issues that appear to only have two or so decent articles when I glance through them on the magazine rack, so I don't buy any issues that don't look like they'll give me a decent value for my dollars.  I've liked the themed issues generally, but some weren't worth my while because they devoted too much content to subjects I wasn't interested in, and the newest issues of Dragon have alleviated that somewhat with the lesser degree of content focused on their individual themes.

However, the newest issues also have much less content in most articles, and are less useful that way, especially since some of the interesting articles of yore have been removed or at least greatly reduced in frequency (Up On A Soapbox, the occasional short fiction, Dungeoncraft, The Play's The Thing, etc.).  And as others have mentioned, the comics are a bit more sparse and Dragonmirth is gone, which was always a funny little diversion.  The recent articles relating to novels and video/computer games have been rather uninteresting from my perspective, though I wouldn't mind so much if they were articles of fiction related to the games/novels.

This last year's focus on Eberron has also been a turn-off to me, that left me ignoring several issues, because I'm not willing to spend another $60-90 on the Revised core rules and then the other 3.5 supplements, at least not for a couple more years now, because I already spent enough on 3.0 material and enjoy it quite well enough.  Dragon issues since 3.5's release have been less useful to me as a result, especially the ones focusing too much on Eberron which I will not pick up or use for at least another year or two.  Until then, these issues with all the space wasted on Eberron and 3.5-only articles are not worth my money, and I won't spend money now just to get something I might, possibly, use a few years later.  I'll buy 3.5 materials when 3.5 has quality updates to the 3.0 materials I've bought, allowing me to use the books I already have for newer campaigns, and when 3.5 has more worthwhile content added; Complete Warrior and its ilk appear to have reprinted too much broken crud without even a passing attempt to make it useable, and I don't trust the other content of such a book in those circumstances.  The Frenzied Berserker, Wu Jen, Shugenja, and many other reprinted classes/prestige classes have been left more or less untouched and just as broken (FB) or crippled (Wuj/Shu) as they were in 3.0.  Without any real effort put into making much stuff from 3.0's better books (OA, T&B, S&F, for example) Revised for balance/playability in 3.5, I don't have much faith in this past year's 3.5 books right now, nor this coming year's books.  Anyway.....

I have to say, I rather dislike the new format for Dragon, and felt it was perfectly fine and appealing to see before this dratted new newspaper-like format.  It used to be varied in backgrounds and nicer on the eyes, never bland or eye-straining for me, and the art has always been good.  I liked the old logo, but the new one looks like it's supposed to appeal to kids who are still learning to read, whereas the old logo was stylish and cool. {:^D  Now I have to read through bland black-on-white text just like the college textbooks I must read each semester, with dull and minimal borders/variety/etc.

Lately, at least moreso than before the new format was introduced, the covers, tables of contents, and preview sidebars for the next issue have been rather meager and undescriptive, making it hard to decide if the current or next issue is worth getting.  Instead I have to go back to the bookstore a couple times a month to check if a new issue is out and see if I can discern it's value/usefulness by what little is mentioned on the cover and table of contents, and with a very brief flip through the pages.  This usually isn't worth it, so I often pass up issues that are too meager/vague about their content, either on the cover or in last month's preview.  Thus, for instance, another reason I didn't catch the Dungeon/Polyhedron issue with Mecha Crusade *weeping* because of similar problems with learning about that mag's current/upcoming content.  Likewise how I missed out on the issue of Dragon with Bahamut and Tiamat, and more recently the issue with the Synod race  that was part of the Expanded Psionics Handbook previews in Dragon....

Well, I hope the ENWorlders' feedback helps at least a bit in improving Dragon or Dungeon (( maybe bring back Polyhedron to some extent.....? as a quarterly even...?  {:^D )), I'll keep reading as long as I find a good issue every few months at least.


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## wingsandsword

Shade said:
			
		

> 4.)  Increasing amounts of Eberron material.  I know it has every right and reason to be in there, but I have no interest in that setting and would much rather see space devoted to any of the settings of past editions.   I realize I'm probably in the minority on this one.



Actually, I agree with you 100%, I don't like Eberron, don't read anything related to Eberron, and my eyes immediately slip past any article dealing with it (PC golems and shapeshifters, and a core class specialist wizard devoted to magic item creation?  No Thanks).

Now, on to my personal general complaints.  I started buying Dragon at issue #287 because it had translations of Planescape to 3e (timed to coincide with the Manual of the Planes).  I stopped buying it about three months ago because I just realized I was plunking down $7 a month for something I just wasn't getting any benefit from for my game and no real entertainment from.

My wish list for Dragon:
1. No fiction.  Sorry, I can pick up fantasy/D&D novels lots of places.  I want role playing games, not fiction.
2. Less "crunch".  Dragon material is famous for being broken or just poorly implemented, I understand you don't have as much a chance to playtest things, but some things look outrageous just on the surface.  That and there are enough templates, rules, spells and feats to do just about anything you could want with D&D.  
3. More DMing stuff.  I don't like how the DMing material got moved to Dungeon.  Dungeon should just be for adventures IMHO, I don't want prefab adventures but I'm not going to buy 2 magazines to get my D&D material.  
4. Historic stuff.  I remember fondly the few articles about doing Robin Hood, or Arthurian era, or any other historic/mythical genres with D&D.  We've seen all the high-fantasy stuff countless times, what about D&D in ancient Rome, or .  And a fistful of quickly bolted together PrC's and feats don't replace some honest advice and discussion about the setting and how to run it properly (see #2).
5. Old Setting stuff.  I personally like it when old settings are revisited (the Campaign Classics issue last year was one of my favorites ever, and despite the controversy, I loved the Dark Sun redux).  D&D has a deep well of settings and lore to delve into, please go back to it more often.
6. Other WotC d20 Support.  I know Dragon is right now only about D&D, but the occasional article for d20 Modern or (Lucasfilm willing) Star Wars RPG would certainly get my suppport (I've not bought an issue of Dungeon since Polyhedron left it).
7. Subscription Price.  Someone else mentioned this, that Dragon subscriptions cost an awful lot compared to other magazine subscriptions. I even had a non-gaming friend point that out to me last week when she was over at my apartment and saw a Dragon subscription card on the table (having fallen out of an issue) and marvelled at the cost compared to what she pays for magazine subscriptions.  If there is no real way to lower the cost, could you please enlighten us on the details of the Publishing industry about this?
8. Paying for advertising.  So many issues seemed like a big expensive promotional piece for the latest hardcover, and 90% of the time what was in there could easily be left out (how many ninja prestige classes do we really need?).  I don't really like paying a lot for a magazine that seems to just be promotional material for a book that I was either already going to get or had no interest in (never has Dragon tie-in material made any influence of my purchases).


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## billd91

I was a subscriber to Dragon for a LONG time and have pretty much every issue from the mid 40s to 170s. I let my subscription lapse about 10 years ago and haven't had an urge to resubscribe since. I pick up the occasional issue at my FLGS based on specific interests.

So why did I let my sub lapse? A few reasons. jmucchiello had a few good comments about outgrowing it that resonated with me. These days, I see so much stuff that's rehashing ideas I saw 15 years ago and I don't need it.

I think Horishijin also has a good point. I started really losing interest when Dragon became a marketing tool for the latest TSR product (and now WOTC). That was partly because so much of what TSR was producing was pretty lame, but it also meant that anything new I liked had one big burst of articles and then nothing. I would have gotten more use of out of some issues if the information on different settings or types of crunch were spaced out better. While the number of articles of use might not have changed, I would have built up less resentment at having completely useless issues from time to time.

I also started to lose interest when Dragon became a solely D&D magazine rather than a general gaming magazine. I picked up games because of reviews and articles in Dragon. They made a Traveller and Squad Leader player out of me. Now, there are very few good ways to get broad gaming content and I think it's encouraging too many players to overspecialize in one game rather than broaden their horizons with other games. Reversing the decision to be D&D only is probably the one necessary requirement to get me to resubscribe and I'm pretty certain it's a decision you guys won't be making.


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## Jaws

Here is how I look at it. Dungeon has everything that I want. D&D adventures at a great price. The return of the maps available for download is what got me to subscribe again. (Now if you could have the subscribers get their issues at the same time as my FLGS and you would have a super happy customer.)

Dragon on the other hand is the same old, same old. You got me to buy one issue recently. The one with Neil Gaiman (bland and short) and Cthulhu (nothing I didn't already know).

I don't need more feats, spells, and especially prestige classes. I don't play the miniatures game. The art has gotten worse (in Dungeon too).

If you had coverage of other D&D-like worlds like Dawnforge, Midnight, and Oathbound--and then it would have to be mostly flavor, little crunch.


Peace and smiles 

j.


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## Abisai

*Subscribed for one year*

After perusing my friends 2E issues for years, we got older and the game changed. I was excited and I subscribed for a year. I was disappointed in the exclusion of product reviews for things not produced by WOTC. I was also bored with the fictional stories that were printed, since those took up space that could have gone to more gaming information. I loved reading Gygax's articles and the more of that sort of meta-article stuff there is the more interesting a read it would be. 

I may be alone here, but the Prestige Classes were too much. I like working with the existing classes and breathing character into a PC. Basically, the stuff that was inspiring for personal gaming was more interesting to read. I'm not buying the magazine to rework my rules. I liked the maps and scenarions, but again the setting is more important that the DC of the traps, etc.


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## wingsandsword

Oh yes, two more things that I thought of.

Minis stuff: no thanks.  I hate seeing articles about the D&D minis game, it's as useless to me as the fiction is.

More comics.  At least Dragonmirth used to be the high point of even the worst issues of Dragon, now it seems to be an afterthought.  Make with the levity!


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## pogre

I bought the first four or so Dragons after 3.0 debuted. I was trying to learn the game after years of WFRP and it was really useful. My Dragon collection is really amusing - a lot of early issues with a huge gap to the aforementioned issues.

Reasons I do not buy the magazine:

1. I'm not the audience - I mostly DM and I homebrew. I had a subscription to Dungeon, but let it run out when the format radically changed. I now buy it on a monthly basis after looking it over. I have purchased the last three, so I'm almost confident enough to start another subscription.

2. New Feats, Careers, and other rules have no appeal to me.

3. I do not read fantasy fiction. I read history. Therefore, fiction does not appeal to me.

What I would like to see: 
(please note - I have not even glanced a Dragon in recent years and no one in my group buys it, therefore, you may say, "but we do that!" By all means say so  )
1. Inspiration articles - plot hooks, character background ideas, historical ideas for governments, organizations, guilds, villains. Ideas for props, handouts, and so on.

2. New ways of thinking about the rules - Offer new assumptions about the rules. 

Example: A common gripe RPGers have against D&D is the fire and forget spell method. However, a long time ago someone on here mentioned they refer to spell slots as valences. Sepulchrave adopted this terminology in his story hour, which turned me onto the idea. Merely explaining the spell system this way to one of my players sold him on playing D&D again. It did not change a thing mechanically - just gave a new perspective.

Example 2: Given the rapid level advancement and the power of magic why isn't every member of the Army 11th level?; or perhaps a better question is: Why isn't every army an epic level spell caster? That leads to a certain kind of game e.g. FR, but I enjoy clinging to the pseudo medieval mythos. 

I use the idea that the characters are fated by the gods for something special. That is why they increase in power so quickly and why they can be occasionally raised from the dead. The campaign is a sort of medieval super heroes versus super villains at the higher levels. This is just a change in mindset, we do not change a thing mechanically.

3. Talk about design considerations - I love under the hood talk.

4. Deeper philosophical consideration of what makes a "good" RPG campaign. Interview DungeonMasters who have been running long term campaigns that their players love. I often am inspired by stories of campaigns around here. 

5. Brutal, and I mean brutal, reviews of 3rd party products. Get someone who is not afraid of hate mail to really lay out what a book does and does not do. It would be particularly cool if a brutal review could be followed by a point-counter-point between the reviewer and the author.

6. Ideas for addressing complaints - like combat is too slow. Now, I personally have never understood this complaint. Our combats rarely take more than ten minutes and have only once taken an hour (epic game with multiple groups). Offer tips for speeding things up or other tips for dealing with common problems around the table.

Thanks Erik - I'm really enjoying Dungeon these days.


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## TheAuldGrump

I _occassionally_ purchase Dragon, but only when it is theme that interests me. (My tastes for D&D are fairly narrow, or in my own word - focused.   )

I bought it more when it had non-D&D content, back in the TSR days, and pretty much stopped when it went all D&D. (Yes, I'm Auld...) And I have just never picked up the habit since.

One other problem actually goes back about 10 years, when I had a player that would try to insist that if it was 'official' I had to allow it, whether it was from Dragon or from _The Complete Elf_. (I actually had to kick him out of the game for a while over his insistance that I allow the Complete Book of Elf Cheese.) So rather than have him paw through the magazine and try to grab the most munchkin thing he could find in each issue I stopped even allowing it at the table. (He also had difficulty figuring out, in a _Birthright_ game, why casting a fireball across the border, along a major trade route, would be considered an act of war...)

The fiction does not bother me at all, but having fiction that matches the theme/mood of an issue would be good - then it can be considered inspiration.

The Auld Grump


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## Angel Tarragon

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Minis stuff: no thanks.  I hate seeing articles about the D&D minis game, it's as useless to me as the fiction is.




I have have to agree with this, I have never been into wargaming, and I never will be. It is another portion of the magazine I skip over.


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## Acid_crash

Frukathka said:
			
		

> The only things that ticks me off are : 1) I just learned from Dragon 326 that Elminster's Guide to the Realms will no longer be a mothly feature.




I didn't know they were taking this out but I am actually glad that E's Guide to the Realms is gone.  Wasted space, as much as fiction.


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## EnglishScribe

*Uk*

I used to subscribe to Dragon, and I used to really enjoy receiving my monthly issue.

But, I live in the UK, and the UK got REALLY screwed when Dragon/Dungeon transfered from Wotc.

Now, I cannot subscribe to either magazine in a manner that makes it cost effective (having it shipped from over there every month for a large amount of money is not cost effective), and there is no-where I know of that stocks it over here.

I think that you lost a lot of UK customers with this debarcle (I know of at least 20).

And, to my knowledge, we still have not had an apology.

Antony


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## Creamsteak

I don't buy Dragon, but I buy Dungeon. Adventures just seem more ripe for the ripping apart and taking what I want, though there are a few small articles from Dragon that I'd like to rip out of any particular issue. I just can't afford it.

*Edit:* About Dungeon, I hate the wasted space on comics. Not my bag really, and for some reason I never get the jokes.


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## Sholari

Why don't you buy the magazine?

Because with D&D overall I'm really burnt out on new prestige classes, magic items, spells, etc. without need or context.   As a DM I have enough of these to fill my game and adding more is an annoyance more than anything else.  In fact when a player comes to me with something new I turn it down 95% of the time, because it usually disrupts game balance.  I see Dragon Magazine as a candy store for players trying to game the system.

BTW Dungeon magazine is great.  I am more than pleased with the recent changes there.  Let's hope you can work miracles with Dragon.

What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?

I am looking for a couple things that may not be provided by Dungeon.  First, I am looking for some form of inspiration... something to really get my creative juices flowing.  Second, I am looking for any resources that may aid in my game.  I want to feel that I've come away from a Dragon magazine feeling like I've learned something new and unique.

Here are are couple article ideas of what I might find interesting...

- Campaign world design priniciples based on the theories in the book "Guns, Germs, and Steel".
- Tips from a professional actor on how to better roleplay your character.
- Photo tour of the sewers and catacombs under Paris (apparently there is a huge network under there) and how these can be used to flesh out your fantasy dungeon design.
- Major trends in gaming as a whole and how they are changing the face of roleplaying.
- Some interesting demographic survey on who are roleplayers in this day and age.
- The ten most impressive live action roleplaying organizations in terms of production quality of adventures.
- Cardboard cutout dungeon floors for minature combat.
- 2005 outlook for the state of the roleplaying industry.
- Evaluation of D&D rules by sword fighting expert - perception of D&D sword combat vs. the reality of it
- Strategy primer on how to play a 1st level wizard and kick ass with plain 3.5 rules (beyond just common sense suggestions)
- Fantasy mood music CD
- Secrets of horror story tellers and what to incorporate their tricks into your campaign.


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## Blue Sky

I'm broke.  That's the only reason I don't buy it.  Make it free, and I'll have no problem getting it.  

Honestly?  I just don't buy very much material any more, and the material I do buy has earn it's worth.  Dragon just didn't get used much, especially as all the cool rules I saw always ended up in a hardcover, anyway.

Not to mention, as a man of wide hobbies, that seven bucks gets compared to everything else I want to buy.  I use a new pre-constructed M:tG deck a hundred times as much as any dragon, and spend more time playing a used PS2 or PC game than I ever would reading the magazine.

Unfortunately, I just don't think you'll ever be able to get me as a regular subscriber again, and can't think of anything that would change my mind.

I realize I probably didn't help much, but you did ask.


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## Creamsteak

Sholari said:
			
		

> - Cardboard cutout dungeon floors for minature combat.




GENIOUS!!!


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## Erik Mona

>>>
Campaign world design priniciples based on the theories in the book "Guns, Germs, and Steel".
>>>

Wonderful book. Good idea.

--Erik Mona


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## Jhamin

I buy books because they expand the rules.  They cost $30 a pop.  I can use them for years, but they don't tell me where to take my campaign.  They tell me what the main bad guy's BAB is.

I buy gaming periodicals because they give me ideas about what to *do* in _next weeks game_.  A periodical by it's nature isn't as permanent as a rulebook, but at $7 it costs about 1/4 as much.  If it's going to be worth it to me, each and every issue needs have 2-3 things in it that I can use in my game.  If it doesn't then it isn't worth the expense.  If everything is tied to a setting, I probably can't use it.  If everything is all about a book I am probably going to get anyway, why am I not just buying the book?


I actively collect old issues of Dungeon because no matter how out dated the mechanics may be, the stories, settings, and characters are inspirational.  I can read a Dungeon issue from 10 years ago and come away with an idea for _next weeks game._

I think what it really comes down to is a lack of creativity.  I want a magazine filled with articles that make me think about what I am doing in my game, or that inspires ideas that I can use in my game next week.

Dragon isn't doing that for me.
Lots of articles about translating video game equipment into D&D, lots of articles about how multiclassing into barbarian gets you lots of hit points.  This stuff I can do on my own. 

One prestige class dripping in background, atmosphere, or style is worth it's weight in gold.  15 Prestige classes that are all ways to give clerics a special god-related power at 7th level do nothing for me at all.

One new feat that exemplifies a new and creative way to fight, cast, or whatever, along with a discussion of what it says about a character that takes it is beautyfull.  10 new feats that all avoid an attack of oppertunity are a waste of space.

I want a magazine filled with articles that give me a great idea about what to do with my charcter, plot, or setting in _next weeks game_.


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## Acid_crash

Me again.  This time telling you what it would take to get me back to purchasing the magazine.

1) How to articles... something that teaches and explains to players and DM's to do different things.  The old Dungeoncraft articles of past issues is the best example I can think of for this.

2) Supplemental support for other campaign settings... toss in a few articles for Midnight, Conan, Dawnforge, Scarred Lands, etc.  Show how information in that article can then be utilized (via sidebars) in established WotC settings.  

3) No Fiction.  Repeat.  No Fiction.

4) Bring back the good comics.  I haven't laughed at a comic in Dragon since the new changeover.  

5) Keep Class Acts... the only current info that I can actually see myself using.


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## MerricB

Although I have every Dragon issue since 274, that's not actually saying I enjoy every issue. The actual bits of Dragon that I _use_ are pretty low. 

I want to strongly applaud the inclusion of the recent "Coup de Grace" columns. I find any glimpses behind the curtain to be fascinating - another reason I loved Gary's "On a Soapbox" column (a pity he's too busy and has basically run out of stories...)

If possible, I'd like this to be strengthened. Since 3.5e, Wizards have strengthened D&D design and development: seeing the _process_ they go through would be invaluable. Instead of just displaying the finished product ("here are your new feats!"), presenting the thoughts as to why the feats are good, balanced and interesting would be great.

Cheers!


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## iamrpgdm

*1. Why don't you buy the magazine?*

Of the few issues that I've purchased, I've purchased them based on interesting article titles or themes I saw on the cover. When I got home and read through them,  I was either disappointed or surprised.  There would be articles shown on the cover that would seem to be quick 10 minute write-ups after reading them or there would be articles not on the cover that I would have bought if they were sold by themselves. Unless I read through the magazine in the store, I couldn't be sure if I was buying a winner or not. If the magazine had some special "bonus"(map, tiles, cards(Deck of Many Things), etc.) with it, then I usually bought it just because of that.​
*2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?*

1. A PDF subscription version so I can assemble all the tidbits and articles that I plan to use into a form that is convenient for me to use.  I have a scanner and can do that now, but it's too time consuming to scan it in, OCR it, fix the OCR errors, format it, and then put it back together the way I like it. 

2. I don't know what the lead time is on preparing an issue, but with a whole community of D&D RPGers it seems there could be more polls or threads like this asking what they want to see in the upcoming issues. Gather a few ideas with abstracts and let the subscribers decide.

3. Provide more "bonuses" like maps, tiles, cards, dice, minatures, etc. Also, bonus downloads available on the web.

4. Character class progressions - I see this as a several issue series(per class) where a base class is taken and progressed up through the various prestige classes. This wouldn't just be some tables slapped together showing stats and equipment. It would be characters having backgrounds and motivations and enough character(pun intended) to make them believable. This can give a player a look at how certain class combinations can work out and possibly give them good ideas for their own characters. For the DM it provides readily available NPCs.

5. Monster class progressions - This is bascially the same as the character class progressions, except it's for those monsters that can gain class levels. It'd be more for the DM, but it could strike some fear into some players when they've read the article and the DM says their 15th level 5 PC party is being charged by 2 orcs who they've just finished watching take down a large dragon.

6. An article series on using spells creatively. 

7. An article series on using magic items creatively.

8. An article series on using the different knowledge and craft skills.

9. An article series on Guilds.

I guess all-in-all if Dragon is to be more for players and Dungeon to be more for DMs, then give to the players in Dragon what the DM gets in Dungeon. The DM gets material for campaign development, so give the characters options for character development. Take what's out there already and put it into use for players to see how useful it can be.​


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## Whisper72

Hmmm... after a long hiatus, I actually DID get a subscription again, to both dungeon AND dragon. I ordered mine on 9-9 of this year. It is now december, and I have yet to receive my first copy.... if this keeps up, this will definately be a very good reason to never buy again....


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## talinthas

the super easy answer?  I play Dragonlance.  Your crunch does nothing for me.
 The easy answer?  Too much crunch, not enough fluff.
 The expanded answer? My favorite part of Dragon was the ecology articles and the bazaar of the bizzare type things.  Stats and stuff are boring- the real joy of those articles was the flavor.  I could run entire campaigns based on small hooks planted through those articles.  Plus, reading their descriptions and such gave me ideas on items of my own that fit Dragonlance better and could borrow cool flavor.  It was more like reading a Volo's Guide, and less like reading an accounting text book the way Dragon is now.

 And let me be the voice of dissent.  I enjoy the short stories, as long as they are decently spread out.

 But really, over the past 8 or so issues (barring 315, which was outstanding), i'd briefly scan through the book, then flip to the comics before putting it away.  After a while, the only comic worth reading was Nodwick, and he posts those online anyway, along with Dork Tower.

 I realise that y'all can't get KoDT back, but can you at least try to make with the funny?  Getting Aaron Williams to do things like Dragons of Spring Cleaning was fantastic.  More of that is great =)  And dude, Order of the Stick is made for your fanbase.  Get it.

 Basically, i got dragon not because it was of any use to me in my game, but because it was a great read, and i could pull stuff from that.  Now, it's just charts and stats, and boring as chalk dust.  fix that, and i'll start buying again.


----------



## Erik Mona

>>>
Hmmm... after a long hiatus, I actually DID get a subscription again, to both dungeon AND dragon. I ordered mine on 9-9 of this year. It is now december, and I have yet to receive my first copy.... if this keeps up, this will definately be a very good reason to never buy again....
>>>

Yikes. No kidding. Have you contacted customer service?

--Erik


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## Creamsteak

> And dude, Order of the Stick is made for your fanbase. Get it.




Good call.


----------



## Hawklord

Like some of the other posters above, I've recently stoppped getting Dragon though I *love *the new Dungeon. 

What would get me to buy Dragon again?

Much of what has been said above...

Less "crunch" there's enough prestige classes, feats and whatever out there already
More "fluff" - general backgrounds, generic ideas etc
Campaign information for players either generic or setting specific esp for Greyhawk (or Default_D&D_World) but even the Realms or Eberron eg "where can you get a good meal in Sharn", or "where's the best place to buy potions in Waterdeep" or "where can you get a cheap bed for the night " or "just how easy is it to buy a +3 vorpal greataxe in in Verbobonc and where do I go to get one?"
"Classic" campaigns .. there's a wealth of stuff in the historic D&D campains, and I loved the recent(ish) pieces you've done on Dark Sun (although like many I didn't necessarily agree with some of the mechanics presented in that conversion) Mystrarra and the increased Greyhawk content in Dungeon. Paizo could exploit a real niche here for a lot of gamers WoTC have essentially abandoned. Lets see some articles on Birthright, Ravenloft and Planescape!
No fiction!
Dragon has also suffered a bit since you lost _Knights of the Dinner Table_.. like a couple of others have said get something like _Order of the Stick_ to replace it !


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## Malic

Hi
At the moment I still buy Dragon, but I've reluctantly decided to stop with the December edition. Reluctantly because I have nearly every one since 3E.
I haven't always loved everything in the mag, but there's always been enough that engaged the imagination, and the non ideal stuff didn't bother me. But since the recent revamp, it just doesn't inspire me at all anymore. 

The layout seems duller, somehow. The cover and header, the internal layout, even the colours. More importantly, suddenly the articles that don't interest me take up a much larger percentage of the magazine. Minatures gaming, book reviews, computer games, lots more ads (it feels like), fiction. 

The thing that disappoints me most is the 'Class Acts'. I haven't seen anything in any of these I can use. I think they're just too short and too unrelated to each other. They're either really basic and obvious or they introduce a whole new field - like the flaws - which is hard to use because it only applies to one character. The new crunch in these one page articles doesn't have enough 'fluff' explaining how it could relate to a world or game. So that's ten pages 'gone' for me.

The DM-related articles, especially the setting creation ones, really interested me, but I'm never going to get to use a module, so Dungeon just isn't value for me (though I did pick up a couple after the revamp before coming to this conclusion).

I do like the ecology articles. I also liked the themed issues, with several aspects covered to allow the theme to be adopted with some depth. I know many people didn't like them if the theme didn't appeal, but to me the much more restricted treatment even in the 'theme' issues (like horror) limits their usefulness.

I miss Phil&Dixie, and there seems to be far fewer cartoons now (though that may be because they are grouped together now) which also makes the mag seem less fun.

I don't mind feats and prestige classes as long as they have enough 'fluff' with them to show how they could fill a specific niche with some flavour. Even knowing I'll never use at least 99% of them, pointing out a new niche or a different take on an old one does get the imagination going.

Still, I know the changes have been made for a good reason, to make the magazine as general as possible and have something for as many different kinds of gamer as possible. Unfortunately that means there is much less stuff for me. (shrug) But you get that.


----------



## Echohawk

Whisper72 said:
			
		

> I ordered mine on 9-9 of this year. It is now december, and I have yet to receive my first copy.... if this keeps up, this will definately be a very good reason to never buy again....




Oh dear. So I shouldn't hold my breath waiting for my first magazine to arrive then? (I also subscribed to both magazines, but at the end of October.) Still, I know Erik is already aware of the horrendous delays experienced by international subscribers, so I don't want to belabour this point any further.

I agree with several of the posters above on the fiction (never read it), new monsters (always a must read, more please) and revivals of old campaigns worlds (always a great nostalgia trip), and an index seems like a potentially useful tool. More "Ecology of..." articles of the sort with lots of juicy footnotes, would also go down well, but that's just me punting for more monster material twice in the same paragraph .

Something that would be far more useful to me than an index though, would be speedy availability of E-Tools datasets for new issues of Dragon and Dungeon. My experience using the datasets for _Complete Arcane_ and _Complete Divine_ has been that once I had those datasets loaded into E-Tools, I used those two books much more often in my games. Actually scratch that. I really didn't use them at all until I had the datasets, now I use them all the time.

I think the same thing would be true for Dragon and Dungeon -- if I can easily add new material to my campaign via E-Tools updates, then I am going to refer back to those magazines far more frequently. I wouldn't even need an index then, since E-Tools kindly includes page references in the descriptions of most feats, spells, items, etc.


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## dpmcalister

I've never subscribed to Dragon (nor Dungeon for that matter) and haven't bought a copy of either since, well, I can't remember. I used to love it (bought the archive CD and still have the majority of issues up to around 300), but it's very bland and boring now. Just the same old things in each issue. It also doesn't help that, at least here in the UK, the issues are in sealed bags so you've got to guess, based on the cover text, whether something will appeal to you (and I've been burnt too many times that way).

What would bring me back to Dragon?

Open it back up to all d20 games. There are a wealth of other games out there (d20 Modern, Mutants and Masterminds, Spycraft, Star Wars, etc.) that are deserving of support in a print magazine but get none.

Less crunch. There are only so many power-gaming feats that can be used in a game.

More how-to articles. The Dungeoncraft articles by Ray Winninger (I think that was who wrote them anyway) were excellent and very useful.

Less fiction. Like the others I've never read it. Tell a lie... I once read a piece by R.A. Salvatore in an old Dragon which was about Bruenor as a young dwarf.

Make it easier for UK buyers to get hold of it!


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## Breakstone

As others have said (and I've vehemently agreed), the reason I stopped reading and, eventually, stopped subscribing to Dragon was because the articles just plum weren't inspiring.

My favorite articles have been the old Ecology Articles (the ones with tactics and strategies for the monsters imbedded in the stories, oh how I loved the Monster Hunters Guild...), the Bazaar of the Bizarre, and similar flavor-oriented articles that give the reader rules to use and inspiration to use them.

But in the recent Dragons before I dropped my subscription, the articles were describing how to take advantage of multiclassing between Cleric and Barbarian. Or a Presitige Class for Barbarian/Sorcerers. Or a bunch of feats for mages who travel with fighters.

None of this got my mind going. The recent articles that DID give me inspiration were "How to Create a Prestige Class," "How to Make a Monster," "Unusual Suspects" (which was about unusual race/class combinations). These articles either got me thinking, and made me feel creative.

I suppose if Dragon had more inspiring material, I would re-subscribe.


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## martynq

At the moment, I'm still buying Dragon magazine, but I'm seriously considering stopping.  The reason for this is that it seems to have completely in a rather dull "crunch" direction.  I now have more than enough prestige classes and feats to last me for a lifetime.  What I would prefer to see is more "fluff" particularly for my favoured setting, the Forgotten Realms.

In recent issues, the amount of FR material has clearly decreased.  Since this is really the only thing I'm actually seeking more of, and there seems to be a decision taken to avoid FR specific material, I see no other course than to abandon buying the magazine (or at least only buying it when there is some FR material).

Martyn


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## Li Shenron

I have never bought a single copy of Dragon or Dungeon, but I have more than once taken a look at the first from the gaming friends (at least 4-6 issues, all of which from 3ed years). I have never seen Dungeon instead. I hope I still qualify for the questions   




			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> So, if you're _not_ a regular customer of Dragon magazine (let's say you buy fewer than three issues annually), please take a minute or two to answer the following questions.
> 
> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?
> 
> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?




First of all, for there's a lot of difference between what I expect from a MAGAZINE and what I expect from a BOOK. In my own view, a book is here to stay with me forever, and as such it'd better be designed as good as possible (e.g. I get sometimes too easily irritated by errata); I prefer to spend my money on useful books for gaming, but I appreciate other books with little use but great to read. A magazine ends up for me to be something to browse, not necessarily read it all, pick what meets my eye favorably, use it in the game once, and then dispose the magazine.

Because of this, I would gladly buy a magazine which had lots of stuff for the DM (I both play and DM). Because the stuff I need as a DM is never enough, it costs a lot of time and fantasy to come up with new ideas, and everything lasts usually one evening only, mostly ending up blown up by the player characters...   
Now that I read these posts, I realized that I should have read Dungeon instead! Adventures, maps, encounters ideas, even some ready-made character are things which as a DM I always need, and they are disposable things which suit a magazine better than a book IMHO.

OTOH what I found in Dragon was too much player-oriented or otherwise it was long-term material, which suits much better a book than a magazine. Player stuff needs much more careful design, because once it's in your game it's going to stay there for a very long time! Furthermore, only a small fraction of player material can really be used, unless you're playing a game when the PC die every other evening...
Also, for some reason it's kind of assumed by everyone I played with that player stuff is to be trusted in this sort of descending rank: (1) stuff from core books [largely popular and playtested], (2) stuff in campaign-specific books [still reliable and consistent], (3) stuff in WotC generic supplements [which usually tend to focus on pleasing players more than being consistent], (4) non-WotC books, (5) RPG magazines of any sort, (6) web sites. As such, I've never played in a game where the DM allowed a player to use magazine material. 

On a completely different matter, I enjoy reading "flavor" material from magazines, and actually that fits a lot IMO with the magazine format. It has the potential to make something normally overlooked by me (as DM) to turn into an exciting option for the next adventure. I'm definitely thinking about articles on monsters ecology for example, ideas how to place a creature race in your world.


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## Aluvial

Arcane Runes Press said:
			
		

> Generally, there's not much passion in the magazine anymore. I see usable mechanics, sometimes innovative mechanics, but I don't see text with them that makes me want to use them.
> 
> 
> 
> The text is dry, in other words, and lacks the manic wonder that lots of the older issues had - the good natured humour and oddball enthusiasm isn't there as much, and the magazine reads more like a trade journal than a place where writers and fans come together to gush about their enthusiasms.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to see the guidelines loosened up a bit, and see quality flavor text encouraged a little more. The monster ecologies articles are a perfect example of the leeching out of flavor.
> 
> 
> 
> The ecology articles used to inspire, they told stories, they were funny or creepy or exciting. The stories that framed the stats brought me into the article, and got my mind to thinking about using the monsters in my own "stories" - on some occasions, the Ecology Of... articles turned a monster I thought was pure garbage into something I actually considered using.
> 
> ...
> 
> This applies to most everything in the magazine. The articles are too textbook dry, because I think Paizo has become too concerned with trying to please almost everyone with every article - and that leads to unfortunate blandness.
> 
> 
> 
> Patrick Younts







This sums it up for me too.  I am a LONG time subscriber to Dragon, but I think my run is quickly coming to an end.  



The problem is that we have a fantasy game and there isn't any fantasy about it.  "Crunch"ing numbers has become a real hassle and lends the new gamer to a host of min-max powergaming.  I believe that this is the current direction the magazine has taken.  



With the split of DM material filling in the back portions of Dungeon, Dragon must by default become the Player magazine.  Ok, no problem there for me IF Dungeon kept a lot of DM content.  But it doesn't seem that there is enough space for both three adventures AND the DM content.  Just put some back into Dragon, there’s plenty of space there.



Back to Dragon.  I believe that the theme issues are ok, but only if they give you the tools to create the theme.  All the material in Dragon obviously shouldn't rehash what you can find in the core books, but should give you the tools to flesh out the theme.  All of this needs the sense of fantasy reinstalled into it.  It feels as if the color commentary has been stripped away, if you catch my drift.  



I couldn't agree more about the ecology articles.  I was excited to see them make a comeback, but then, whoa...  where is the little story of adventurers facing off with the creature to make it "feel" more like a fantasy game.



This is my problem with the 3.0/3.5 rules overall.  I gladly switched over in favor for clearer, more concise rules, but the problem lies in the presentation.  I have played wargames for over 25 years, and the core philosophy of the game has become...  well it's become dry; it's lost its flair.  



Dragon has followed suit with articles that offer lots (and lots) of Player options.  There are in fact so many options that it becomes staggering.  If that is all that Dragon has to offer anymore, player options, then the problem should become self-evident.  Reminds me of the old Complete series in the brown faux-leather covers.  More and more and more d20 material floods the market (a good thing I might add, I praise the different publishers trying to make a buck, I find most of your products pretty good) and a lot of player feats and prestige classes have been created.  Sometimes it is overwhelming.



A side thought...  Dragon could really use a BONUS index issue.  A good index that listed the whereabouts of each feat, spell, prestige class, skill option, race, class, and monster that it has produced.  This index also NEEDS to contain all of the published Wizards books for the new rule system.  Each entry needs to be in clear alphabetical order (a green slime needs not be listed under ooze, it’s a pain to find a creature or whatever in the host of subcategories out there) with brief description, book or magazine issue, with a page number.  This thing would be the kind of real tool that both Players and DMs absolutely need to reference all of the material out there.  Hell, come to think of it, it would be handy to have one in hardback; I'd pay if it was done right.    



Anyway, back to the issue, Dragon and its lack of flavor.  I realize that I've been gaming for a long, long time, and it just might be that I've chewed the taste out of the gum, but I'm still chewing.  I think new players need that same feel whether it is constantly rehashed or not.  It just seems to me that the flavor is getting chewed out of the pages of Dragon.  No one likes chewing stale gum.  Let’s reinvigorate the game with some good, old fashioned fantasy, something that might reinstall the magic and the heart back into the game.



Long rant over,



Aluvial


----------



## Aluvial

Oh, and one more thing, MORE GREYHAWK.  

I never understood going away from the classic.  (Fine, label it the generic setting, we'll know if you're doing it right; so far so good!).

Aluvial


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## lior_shapira

[Edit] See remarks below

I live in Israel and its close to impossible to find it here. The FLGS don't bring it because (i asked) they'll have to charge about 13$ for it which is too high and nobody will buy it (me included). I thought about getting a subscription, but the price of international subscriptions is absurd (in my point of view) and not justifiable.

I do buy the magazine whenever I'm in the states or in europe, but even then its at a very high price.

What I would like and would be interested in is

a. Reduced international subscription fare, even for 2-3 years

b. Collected issues at almost subscription price, i.e. Buy all 2004 issues of Dragon magazine at the price of a US 1 year subscription + 10%, this way shipping and handling won't be so pricey

thanks for the attention. lior s.

[Edit] Well it seems its been a while since I visited the Paizo site, actually its pretty reasonable now to do an international subscription. So I shut my trap and did a 2 year subscription. thanks Eric for this thread ;-)


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## cjdc1973

I am going to go out on a limb and disagree with almost everyone on most everything. I definitely agree that Dragon could use an digital Index, PDF versions of the magazine, as well as timely rule set support for E-Tools and PCGEN. That's where I'll stop agreeing.

Screw the Fluff. I don't need the help coming up with ideas. I never read a single Fluff based article. I never bother with Ecology, and ignore almost all of Class Acts. The Samurai versus Knight article made me want to burn my copy of Dragon.

Lots of Crunch. I want more Feats, Prestige Classes, Spells, Magic Items. There are only ~2000 published spells  by WOTC. I can never have enough. The magic item lists in the various books are woefully inadequate. I never get bored of new Feats to toss against my players. I eat Prestige Classes like candy. They are what makes my NPC's interesting for the 10 rounds and 3 hours of combat they are lucky to survive.

More Forgotten Realms. Fiction;Ed Greenwood;Sean Reynolds;Eric Boyd;Bruce Cordell;etc. More statistics for characters from FR based novels. The entire line of FR based Fiction that lines my shelves isn't enough. I need more.

I dislike the new black words on white paper layout. I relished the funky design with strange backgrounds and bright text. They made the magazine come alive. I could care less about the cover art. I don't by a magazine for its cover, I buy it for its content. Do whatever you want with the cover.

I've been a subscriber for almost 3 years and have personally purchased all Dragon/Dungeon issues since 3E was released. I also have digital copies of every almost single issue scanned in so that I can always browse an issue or look up a rule. I'd love to have real authorized, OCR, text searchable versions that are not huge 100MB file sizes. Until then, I'lll acquire my less then legal versions while still paying for subscriptions to allow me to stay in a murky grey Fair Use area of the copyright law.

*Energy Immunity Fire activated*


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## Eremite

Whisper72 said:
			
		

> Hmmm... after a long hiatus, I actually DID get a subscription again, to both dungeon AND dragon. I ordered mine on 9-9 of this year. It is now december, and I have yet to receive my first copy.... if this keeps up, this will definately be a very good reason to never buy again....




Whisper72,

As a fellow international subscriber, I have to tell you that this is pretty normal for us. You should expect not only delays but every second or third issue will go missing. That's the bad news.

The good news is that if you send an email to customer.service@paizo.com they will arrange replacement copies which only take about seven working days to arrive here in Oz and probably will take about the same length of time to reach you.

Edit: Actually, this rather poor situation reminds me that I would actually prefer to buy both Dungeon and Dragon electronically. It would save delays plus would make storage and retrieval of articles (particularly as there is no comprehensive index) that much easier.


----------



## the Jester

Another vote for no fiction.

Another vote for an index and datasets.

Dragon seems less flavorfull than it used to be- haven't bought one in a good year now, but I've quite a collection, going back to somewhere in the 50's.  (Lots of gaps, of course... )  I'd say try to bring some of that tasty old skool flavor back somehow.


----------



## Style

_What is bad about Dragon_: Splitting the "DM content" off into Dungeon magazine.  The DM/player split is a false division - most articles are inspirational for both.  Keep Dungeon for quality adventures for the audience that wants them and stop forcing other folks to buy 2 magazines!  Lose the fiction.  Lose the minis articles.

_What would be good in Dragon_: Crunch, fluff - bring 'em both on.  Games consist of both elements.  Design-philosophy articles like the "how to build a feat" or "how to build a monster" articles.  Campaign components to plug into your game.  Campaign classics (do more Dark Sun and get it right!).  And put the DM articles back into Dragon.  Yes, I really feel very strongly about this - it's a needless split that, in my case, made me drop Dungeon as I can only afford one subscription at a time.  I am a DM but have no lack of adventures or adventure ideas.  What I do need are inspirational and innovative articles and having them scattered over 2 separate magazines is just dumb.

Oh, and as an international subscriber, let me echo the voices that have already said that it is too expensive and too damn unreliable.  Customer service are great (they really, really are!) but it is a pain in the neck when you have to chase 50% of your magazines.  Bad!  Very bad!!


----------



## sotterraneo

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> So, if you're _not_ a regular customer of Dragon magazine (let's say you buy fewer than three issues annually), please take a minute or two to answer the following questions.
> 
> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?



Albeit I'm a big roleplay fan, I don't buy Dragon magazine because it simply bothers me. Another prestige class, another set of spells, another monster, another group of magical items... sigh... They are all the same. I have and satill enjoy reading the older Dragon Magazine issues (I'm taliking about the issues from 1980 to 1990) because they seem to me fresher and with a more varied content.



> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?



Nothing, I'm afraid. As another poster wrote, I simply outgrow it and I'm convinced that, commercially, the current articles lineup pays well in commercial terms. I'm too much a niche audience


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## magnuskn

Okay, first off, I *am* buying Dragon at the moment, but if it continues in the new look as it is, I´ll be jumping off after a few more issues.

So, with this in mind, here goes:

1. I won´t continue buying Dragon in the future, because the new sections doe nothing for me and have replaced better content. The miniatures stuff is completely uninteresting for me; Zogonia is a much worse comic than every other one which I saw before in Dragon, and instead of replacing it, its section has been enlarged ( bring back Phil and Dixie, I say! ); Winning Races just seems superfluous, aren´t there enough races already in D&D?; and last but not least, Class Acts is not a column which brings much interesting stuff at all to the classes, besides the flaws or once the new equipment for Rangers. At the moment, I´m just waiting for the flaws for the different classes to be completed, at which time I´ll drop the magazine.
Also, on a purely visual level, the new "white on black" approach doesn´t look as good as the old "mixed colors" approach. 

2. Well, first off, bring back Phil and Dixie. Really, please do. They rocked. 
Second, could you give some loving to the new core classes, which were in the Complete books? If there is a Class Acts section, go for those new core classes, too, they could need some new specials, the normal core classes already have tons of their own. Same goes for some of the PrC´s, which never get expanded upon in any venue. 

Change the layout back to the old multi-color style, please. The new black-on-white layout looks dreary and boring.

Things that I *loved* to death were the statistics for the "heroes" from the War of the Spider Queen series. Yay, finally some high-powered NPC´s to use against my own players! Does anybody realize how much time it takes to build a threatening NPC of high level, not to mention several of them? More than it takes to cook up the plot for the week, I can tell you that! More of those would make me want to buy every single issue, be sure of that.

Also, if WOTC doesn´t plan it by themselves, could you please make a new master table for random treasure, including all the stuff WOTC invented for the last years? Maybe after Complete Adventurer comes out? I know, not likely that you´ll be allowed to do it, but it would really be nice to be able to roll up random treasure, and to be able to roll anything of the current stuff, not have to include it by hand.

Well, that´s it, I´ll now read the thread to see if someone else already gave those suggestions I gave.   

Magnus


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## Hand of Evil

I am a selective buyer, picking up a Dragon every now and then.  My problem, my years of gaming, I have about 27 years of gaming behind me and my Dragon collecting starts at about issue 6.  Stopped reading them in the 2nd edition days and re-started for 3rd edtion.  After all my years a lot of stuff appears to be repeat, maybe it is for a different edtion, different name, or such but it just has that rerun feel to it, at least to me.


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## pjurgens

*Why _DON'T_ You Buy Dragon Magazine*

I am not sure if I am the type of person that you want a response from since I am a current subscriber to Dragon.  My first issue of Dragon was #39 – I guess that makes me an old timer.  I have had subscriptions on and off since.  My latest run of 10 years is definitely the longest, but I am pretty well decided that it is time to move back to the “off” column for a while.

Why would I let my subscription lapse?  There are a few things that have been bothering me lately.  One is the recent reformatting of the magazine.  I know that every new editor needs to leave his/her mark on the magazine, but the reformat seems to be repeating the same mistakes made by the previous reformat.  I feel like I could go back 4 or 5 years and dig up the criticisms of that change and they would be 90% relevant to the changes presented today.

Second, I am sick of new feats.  39 new feats.  37 new feats.  Blah, blah, blah.  I don’t really understand the excitement over new feats.  When I look at all of the new feats the only thing that comes to mind is a feeling that the feat mechanic is being diminished and abused.  I loved the concept of feats when it was originally presented in 3.0.  At first I thought the feats presents in the PHB were fantastic.  But what I can’t seem to understand is the attitude that we need dozens of new feats.  Most of the new feats presented in Dragon seem unbalancing or trite or are tailored to a specific home-campaign or they expose a flaw/limitation in the 3E/3.5E rules.  (I can give an example if needed).  I really feel like the pages dedicated to new feats could be much better spent.

Third, I think I could make the same comments about new spells and magic items, but not nearly as strongly.  I really enjoy new magic items when they are presented.  I like magic items with a little history as opposed to another +1 long sword.  The new spells are a little more dicey – sometimes I feel like the new spells are unbalanced or not well conceived or, like my comment about feats above, they expose flaws/limitations of the 3E spell system. 

Finally, though I do feel there are creative ideas that you can extract from articles on worlds/settings that are of otherwise no interest, it seems like the number of these articles is on the rise.  I know that a certain number of these articles is to be expected because WOTC needs to support their latest setting, but enough.  Issue #326 seems to be much better than other recent issues.  But I find myself not-reading about as much as I do read.  And that makes me wonder if it is money well spent.

Reading the other responses above I see some fantastic ideas.  These ideas from Thorin Stoutfoot would surely convince me to stay….



> 2. Plot ideas. I loved the plot ideas part of the DMG, and wouldn't mind more material along those lines.
> 
> 3. Patches/additions to the Core books. For instance, the new NPC tables in the 3.5 DMG are a travesty and not nearly as useful as the NPC tables in the 3.0 DMG was. An article to fix them would get my attention.
> 
> 5. A regular column titled "Behind the curtain..." that explained the design process behind certain rules and why they work that way. Heck, that could be applied to the various Campaign Settings that WOTC (and possibly 3rd party) produces. The idea here is that rather than provide me with fodder that I might or might not use, give me tools! "Give a man a fish and you'll feed him for a day..."


----------



## diaglo

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> So, if you're _not_ a regular customer of Dragon magazine (let's say you buy fewer than three issues annually), please take a minute or two to answer the following questions.
> 
> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?




doesn't cover the edition of D&D nor other rpgs i enjoy playing. if it contained articles and information for OD&D you'd have to have a restraining order placed around your premises to keep me out. i'd live at your house.




> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?





a centerfold. a pc or npc or monster of the month or even player handout map.  of course, you'd get the normal.. "I buy it for the articles" comments.


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## Charles Dunwoody

I recently extended my subscribtions to both Dragon and Dungeon. However, I want to comment on what I'd like to see and what wouldn't lose me as a subscriber.

If each issue of Dragon had one article on a specific world I would be okay with it. Greyhawk one month, Eberron the next, FR after that, then Planescape etc. A lot of gamers want this material and I think you could add it in without losing me as a subscriber. 

However, I'd recommend you expand the existing material and not recreate the old worlds. Maybe include a few new rules, some examples of how existing rules could fit in the world, and a new roleplaying piece (details on a kingdom not covered recently or recent events of interest to adventurers).

One thing the core rulebooks and supplements don't do for me is project a coherent picture of a base D&D world. I'd like to see some articles that recommend how to combine some of the existing rules together in the world of Greyhawk (which could represent any home brew world based on just the core rules and supplements). 

Discuss types of adventures that can be run for classes other than the big four (cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard). Explain how challenge ratings of certain monsters should be tweaked in a game without certain classes being played (maybe bump up CR for undead in a game without a cleric for instance).

If you want to create new rules, expand the core. I think fighters could benefit from high level feats with a lot of prerequisites. Higher level spells for the cleric would be good. More magic items that are specific rather than generic (specific armor and weapons and rings, rods, and wondrous items with a variety of unique abilities for instance).

Create a background for some NPCs and create the stats for them as various levels. Take a risk and occasionally include an NPC using a supplement class rather than a core.

Consider expanding the supplement rules a little at a time. New auras for the marshal, new invocations for the warlock etc. A one page article would be short enough to present some new options without taking up too much space. If you present half a page of new rules and use the other half for roleplaying tips (background ideas for the warlock, how to use tactics in battle) than the article is much more useful for more readers.

Discuss how the various cultures and monsters would interact. Just what do mind flayers do besides eat brains and wait for adventurers to come kill them? Actually develop a few cultures for monsters and races (a roving armada of halfling ships, a band of elves that travels in the treetops, a democracy of gnomes settled on an island and dealing with their fey neighbors to the north etc.).

Finally, I'm okay if non-paper RPG articles go away. I don't read the fiction or mini rules. I would think the fiction should go to Amazing Stories and the mini rules to Undefeated.

I'd like to see Dragon support existing worlds, expand not just the core rules but also the core roleplaying ideas, add some new material for supplements, introduce articles with a combination of new rules and new roleplaying ideas, and join the various books and campaigns out there into a loose community of sorts. Instead of just appealing to the core rulebook rules crowd, take a few risks and try to draw in a wider audience which includes home brewers, campaign users (existing or previous editions), and DMs as well as players.

As a subscriber, I'm willing to have a FR article in one issue and an expansion of the Book of Vile Darkness in another (don't use either myself) if I know I'll get an Eberron article and a few new invocations and background ideas for my warlock.


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## MrFilthyIke

diaglo said:
			
		

> a centerfold. a pc or npc or monster of the month or even player handout map.  of course, you'd get the normal.. "I buy it for the articles" comments.




 

All humor aside, handouts and maps and goodies are a big incentive for me to buy an issue of Dragon.


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## Seeker95

I am a subscriber.  I have subscribed off and on since 1984.  I own all but about 70 issues.  But none of the players in my group subscribe.  I've asked them why.  Here were their answers:

Three said: Dragon?  What's that?
One said: I don't need a magazine to play.
The fifth said: I'm not the DM.  Why do I need to learn about rules I can't use.

Now, I now Dragon is aimed at the general audience and Dungeon at the DM.  I wouldn't change that distinction.  But three of my players had never heard of Dragon Magazine.  The other two have their own reasons for not subscribing.

Don't change what's in the magazine.  All that does is switch subscribers -- not add to them.  Instead, find a way to increase your subscriber base through better marketing.  WotC has no solid mention of Dragon on its website.  I have never seen an ad for Dragon outside of Dungeon or Dragon Magazine.  

Convince WotC to put a subscription link on their site.
Do the same for ENWorld.
Find a way to give local gaming stores an incentive to offer subscriptions.  
Offer current subscribers incentive to "recruit a subscriber".

Dragon Magazine is a niche product.
But it doesn't advertise to that niche.


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## SamSpectre

First of all, I did not read all four pages of responses so I'm sorry if any of this is redundant.

Secondly, I _am_ a Dragon subscriber (have been for a few years, since 3.0 first debuted) but am considering dropping the subscription.

Why?  When 3.0 first came out, the idea of a vastly expandable D&D system was great.  I only wanted more.  I bought almost every D20 item that was published for the first year, and I can tell you that is a lot.  More than a lot, probably too much.  A lot of the material I will never, ever use.  If I had any hopes of unloading it for a decent price on eBay, I'd be there.

Dragon, at the time, was VERY useful to me because it gave me insight into the new system.  I would carry around a few extra copies to games to reference Sage Advice columns, or study SOME of the Prestige Class constructions to get inspiration or insight into creating my own for my home brew campaign.  You only need so much of that however before the you don't need anymore.  This is where I am now.  I have everything I need to run a 3.0/3.5 campaign from now until I'm old and grizzled (at least a few more years).

Now then, what do I think would help Dragon?  This might seem a bit radical, but I think Paizo/WotC should abandon the traditional magazine approach.  The glossy pages are too expensive to print.  I would be happier with a monthly packet of articles and goodies that were binder hole-punched so that I could remove them and set them into separate binders for easy accessibility (rather than needing to carry around a ton of magazine, or photocopy good articles) ala Monstrous Compendiums, HarnQuests, sort of.  Instead of creating useless Prestige Classes, monster ecologies, etc., publish useful stuff; meaning: material that was dropped from a publication due to page constraints, world-kingdom-town maps for published campaigns, rules that were dropped for page constraints of core books.  A few pages that add depth to Greyhawk (always good), or FR (rarely good), or Eb that could be stored elsewhere, would be nice.  The more open-source stuff, the better.  I don't know how you'd incorporate advertising into this model, but if you weren't doing full-color background splashes on glossy pages, I imagine your printing costs would plummet.

Another idea would be to publish primarily by .pdf, catered to keywords that the subscriber wants updates on.  Such as, I might check off [x] Sage Advice, [x] Greyhawk, [x] Open Source Content, [x] Cartoons; and then only be sent (by e-mail or available on a web server) those files, once a month.

Those are my ideas, today.


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## JamesM

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?




My primary reason for not purchasing _Dragon_ is its presentation. I don't like the way it looks and I don't like the way it reads. As so many others have said, it's bland and esthetically uninteresting. I'd like to see articles written with a lot more "flair" and a layout and graphic design that shows a little "verve" from time to time. So, punch it up all around.

That said, don't make the mistake (IMO) of the early 3E issues, which to my mind seemed to imitate CCG magazines in their presentation. I don't want over the top "Build a Killer Fighter!!!" articles (and I certainly don't want that written across the front cover -- I like the newer covers, FWIW) and I miss the days when not every article was game mechanics-related. There are just way too many feats, spells, and prestige classes in the magazine now.

I also find the tie-ins to WotC products tedious. Most of these articles amount to glorified web enhancements that I'd rather get from the website than in the pages of _Dragon_. If you're going to do a tie-in, it'd be nice if it'd fill in gaps in the products, namely how to use this new material in a fun way. More of what we already got is just utterly uninteresting to me.

Let me add my voice to the "drop the fiction" vote. I never read the fiction and never have. Its existence doesn't bother me immensely, but a few more pages of gaming material would be preferable. 



> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?




More "fluff," which is to say non-mechanical inspirational articles that aren't necessarily tied to a specific setting. Even when it is tied to a specific world, it'd be nice if that setting were used primarily as an example rather than as the sole reason for the article. Ed Greenwood's old Realms articles from the days before it became an official setting are a good example of this genre.

If you include more game mechanics, they should not simply reproduce stuff we could get elsewhere. One of the big problems is that, with the d20 STL, there is just an embarrassment of riches when it comes to mechanics. There are lots of things no one has covered yet, so go wild and do weird or exotic stuff no one has done. Likewise, it'd be nice if some of the mechanics were OGC. At present, very little is open content and that limits its utility to writers and designers.

Theme issues are fine occasionally, but don't overdo them. I'd prefer a general mix of content each issue. Columns and regular features are fine and often terrific if you get the right authors. But, to be honest, it's been a while since I found any of your recent columns inspiring or even interesting in an academic way. 

I hope this helps.


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## diaglo

Seeker95 said:
			
		

> WotC has no solid mention of Dragon on its website.  I have never seen an ad for Dragon outside of Dungeon or Dragon Magazine.
> 
> Convince WotC to put a subscription link on their site.
> Do the same for ENWorld.
> Find a way to give local gaming stores an incentive to offer subscriptions.
> Offer current subscribers incentive to "recruit a subscriber".





i know this is not news to you... but back before Paizo took over/ bought the magazines... the WotC site did have Dragon and Dungeon on the site.

WotC doesn't advertise other companies products. only Hasbro stuff.


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## Waylander the Slayer

*Very Simple*

The market is oversaturated with "splat" and as such there is no need for Dragon Magazine (time is usually better spent working on your character or the campaign and there are already a billion prestige classes, feats, equipment etc.).


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## National Acrobat

*I had been...*

I recently allowed my subscription to expire after being a subscriber for roughly fifteen years, and after buying it in single issues since the late seventies. My reason is quite simple. My gaming group, of which I am the DM and have been for near twenty years, decided last year to abandon 3rd Edition and to go back to 1E ADnD, and more recently, use Castles and Crusades.

As the magazine is pretty much a 3.5 DnD resource (even though it can be used for 3.0 as well) it really doesn't serve a purpose for me anymore. The things in the magazine aren't really backwards compatible, so it's just not something I felt that I needed anymore.


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## Belen

I am a subscriber of both Dragon and Dungeon magazine.  While Dungeon now rocks, I have not opened an issue of Dragon since the new rollout.  After a very bad experience with Dragon crunch, it has been banned from my game.  As someone said earlier, there are already hundreds of published feats, spells and classes.  A character is lucky to get 7 feats during their career, so most of the feats published by WOTC never gets used, so why would you ever want to use something from Dragon?

Personally, I feel that Dragon is just a playtest rag for WOTC.  They pull the crunch they want and republish it, so it seems that WOTC gets more use out of the magazine than I do.

I think that a lot of DMs have banned the use of Dragon crunch in their games.  And, if a player cannot use the material, then there is no reason to buy the magazine.  The magazine does not offer anything other than crunch to attract people to buy it.  As there is already a metric ton of crunch published by WOTC and third party, then Dragon becomes irrelevant, especially considering the third party material has a better balance and playtest record than Dragon.

If Dragon is to survive, then it needs something to attract people besides crunch.  Here are some suggestions:

1.) Instead of PrCs, have articles explaining how already published feats and classes can combine to form archetypes.

2.) Fluff, fluff, and more fluff: For instance, you could do a historical article on Roman Legionaires.  Explain how the fighter class can be fitted to different fighter types.  Combine fluff with the types of equipment and feats that a Roman would have and suddenly, you will have players that are effective with some personality.  You will get more GMs to allow Dragon in game if it shows EXISTING rules and how to work them rather than new, unplaytested, unbalanced rules.

3.) Monsters!  Instead of new monsters, have an article about how a monster fights!  Give a 5 round set of monster tactics.  Yes, it would be geared towards GMs, but players would enjoy it too.  That would be VERY useful.

4.) Tactical Studies: Have an article about player tactics.  Show them how to use existing rules and crunch in game.  Explain how and when to use a fireball.  Explain what spells, skills, feats would be useful in certain situations.

5.) Fluffer-size the rules: Have an article that explains the fluff of a skill, spell, feat or class.  Give players a sense of how to describe the use of their abilities.  Instead of someone saying "I use sleight of hand," have a short skit meant to show a player how to describe sleight of hand in game. "I trip and fall into the wealthy noble, moving lightly to the gold-filled purse by her side."

6.) TEACH!  Dragon should be a teaching tool.  It should be aimed at teaching players not just the crunch of the game, but the soul of the game.  Right now, Dragon has no soul and that is in desperate need.  There needs to be something other than crunch that makes people want to read Dragon.

I would read Dragon if more of the above could be expected from the magazine.  As of now, I bought a subscription to both magazines, but only Dungeon will be renewed.

Dave


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## Charles Dunwoody

One thing I thought about after posting my ideas for Dragon was the size of readership. Erik, I don't remember the exact figures but at Gen Con you said the number of subscribers to Dragon is small in comparision to the number of D&D players out there.

Maybe Dragon should try to market to a sophisticated market. By that I mean assuming your readers are skilled and experienced D&D players who want more. More roleplaying discussion, more how to articles, more coverage of favorite settings and how to make a home brew world really spectacular.

I guess I'd like to see Dragon experiment with articles aimed at the experienced reader with a degree in D&D. Instead of creating every article to match the core three rule set or simply add new rules to book x coming out this month.

Dragon Magazine readers are smart and knowledgeable about D&D. Start marketing to that intelligence and education.

I'd like Dragon Magazine to challenge me. Challenge my preconceived and perhaps entrenched notions about what D&D is and how we play the game. While at the same time having the magazine support and expand the core idea of D&D and why we play, which is to envision great stories and create them as a team alongside a great rules system. Get that paradox going and I'll resubscribe next year as well.


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## IronWolf

Well, I have a subscription to Dragon currently, but I will throw in my thoughts on how it could be better and how you can keep getting my renewals.

I read all 5 pages of posts and I must say I agree with the majority of them.  Less crunch and more fluff.  And not only more fluff, but good, thought out, in-depth fluff.  

As one person said, the average character probably picks up between 7 and 10 feats over the course of a campaign.  Why in the world do I need all of these feats?  If I *do* need these feats I will pick up an book that has more feats for me to use.  I cetainly do not need to see them every month in Dragon.

As another poster said, the magazine seems too simple now.  Your target audience is *experienced* D&D players, not newer ones.  Focus more content to those of us who are experienced by increasing their depth, etc.

I have the Dragon Archive CD and often times I browse through the older magazines and wish there were more articles of the same caliber in the new issues of Dragon. 

I have rambled enough, there are many good ideas in this thread and I would be re-hashing most of what the others have said.  Hopefully these ideas will be taken to heart and we will begin to see a shift in the contents of Dragon in the future.


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## Belen

Kravell said:
			
		

> I'd like Dragon Magazine to challenge me. Challenge my preconceived and perhaps entrenched notions about what D&D is and how we play the game. While at the same time having the magazine support and expand the core idea of D&D and why we play, which is to envision great stories and create them as a team alongside a great rules system. Get that paradox going and I'll resubscribe next year as well.




Exactly, it should challenge and teach!  Dragon should be a pioneer for the game.  It should expand the nature of the game, rather than the mechanics of the game.

Dragon should constantly remind us of why we play the game and challenge us to think about the game and the stories that can be told in a new way.  Mechanics do not really do anything for the game other than make combat run longer.


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## Jer

I feel the need to speak up here, even though I'm not quite sure that I'm in the target group that Erik was asking for.  I've been a subscriber to both Dungeon and Dragon on and off since the mid-80s.  I've seen the ups and the downs, and I currently subscribe to both.

However, that's mainly because I renewed my subscriptions right before the big change occurred that split the DM stuff to Dungeon and the Player stuff to Dragon.  If I were renewing now, I'd definitely renew Dungeon - one of the best values per dollar in the D&D/d20 marketplace.  But I'd REALLY have to think hard about re-upping my Dragon subscription.

The problems are the things that I foresaw back when the change was announced.  For D&D I'm a DM (mainly).  I'm a player in a few other games, but for D&D I run the show.  I have so many 3e, 3.5e and d20 supplements now that "player cookies" do NOTHING for my game.  I haven't seen a cookie in Dungeon in years that has been helpful for my campaign setting.  New prestige classes, new feats, new spells - I can get these things from WotC's Complete XXX series, various independent d20 companies, or many other places.  Heck, in my campaign only two of my players are using anything other than "core rules" from the Player's Handbook.  One is using a prestige class from Masters of the Wild, and the other is using a prestige class that the two of us came up with and balanced together.

None of my players are Dragon readers, because the only D&D that they play is my campaign and my game=my rules.  I have a good relationship with all of my players and if they want something for their character, we work together to get it for them (some of my best story ideas have come from player requests).  If there were games other than D&D in Dragon, some of them might read it, but since that seems to be SO unpopular with the most vocal of the letter-writers in Dragon, I doubt that will happen any time soon...

For me, the most useful columns in Dragon are the ones that "cross-over" between players and DM advice, but that's because I'm a DM.  If these columns were in Dungeon, Dragon would have no use for me at all (except for the comics - I do love Nodwick and Dork Tower).  Recent columns that have kept me interested were the Labyrinth and Sewer ones (Knight vs. Samurai didn't do it for me).  The Winning Races features have also been good (I've loved the lupins since Castle Amber, so that article warmed my heart), with both the lupins and the half-elemental articles standing out. These are less "player cookies" in my mind and more of a cross-over between DMs and Players (i.e. I'm much more likely to use the information in these articles for my NPCs than I am the ones mentioned above).

I also enjoy the one-page class articles that are in the back now - these are crunchy articles that actually get my thinking about my NPCs.  I think that it helps that these deal with "core" classes rather than trying to introduce something new - they're just giving me new ways of looking at core ideas and I like that.

Oh, and to reiterate what's been said before - fiction.  Its a waste of paper in the magazine for the me.  If I want to read fiction, I'll grab a book or a fiction magazine.

Finally, I think its been said by others above but I think it deserves repeating, the magazine is not as much "fun" as it was in the past.  I thought I was imagining it, but I broke out some of my old issues a few weeks back and realized that there was a lot more energy and a lot more general "fun" in those old issues.  At one point, Dragon was THE community for D&D.  I think since TSR ran the whole thing into the ground in the mid-90's, Dragon's status as the "community" for D&D has moved to the web.  Dragon is much more polished now, and much more professionally written than it was, but it seems to have lost some of the raw energy that it once had.  If you have the CDRom archive handy (or the actual issues), I'd point you to the issues of Dragon right around issue #100 to see what I mean.  I don't think this is a case of me being "curmudgeony" (maybe it is), but these issues STILL have articles with relevance and usefulness today - something that I'm not sure that last month's issue of Dragon will be able to say when the 5th edition of D&D hits the market.

Thanks for listening Erik.  One thing about this - PLEASE DON'T CHANGE DUNGEON BACK!  I think the shift in Dungeon to become a "DM-magazine" rather than just an adventure magazine is one of the BEST things that's happened to it.  I look forward to it now every month in the way that I used to look forward to Dragon every month - and that's after years of thinking that Dungeon was mostly worthless to my campaigns.  I still miss the non-D&D Polyhedron stuff from the magazine, but I love the new Dungeon.

Keep up the good work, and thanks.


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## kaiscomet

Wow, there are a lot of opinions out there and common themes. I agree with much of what has been said, but wanted to add my $.02 as well. 

I was never a subscriber, but I used to buy nearly every issue from my FLGS for several years. I loved the old ecology articles. Made you see common monsters in a different light, or excited you about monsters that you had never considered using before. 

Some of my favorite articles ever were the "101" articles. The 101 ghost stories has seen a lot of use. Even the 101 uses for a blanket. I also really enjoyed the article about the different types of swords you could add into your game, especially those with an asian feel. Why use a great sword when you could have a 'kulang?'

Most people have posted their distate for the fiction articles. I have enjoyed them, but would like to see more that are specific to a D&D world. Especially stories about Greyhawk, Planescape, and Dark Sun. That way they could introduce recurring themes, characters, and locations. 

Finally, have more inserts/goodies. The pull out maps, the music cd's, and especially cd's with old "classic" articles or old adventures on them. I have tried to buy nearly every Dragon that has come with some of these.


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## The_Universe

Ugh - articles about the D&D minis game!  Yuck yuck yuck!  

If you want to include suggestions for how to use them in interesting ways for a "real" D&D game, that's great - but the Minis game is just not the same.  

(On the other hand, I love it when there are maps/skirmish tiles - easily used for a real game, as well).


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## JoeGKushner

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Ugh - articles about the D&D minis game!  Yuck yuck yuck!
> 
> If you want to include suggestions for how to use them in interesting ways for a "real" D&D game, that's great - but the Minis game is just not the same.
> 
> (On the other hand, I love it when there are maps/skirmish tiles - easily used for a real game, as well).




I do supscribe and just renewed my subscription not too long ago but that (D&D minis support) almost made me drop it. Please keep the focus on the RPG, not the tabletop. If the D&D minis can't get their own magaizne, go with Undefeated.


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## antpasq

I have to agree with the statements that a lot of the material is unbalanced in Dragon. For the longest time there wasn't a blurb on the cover stating "official" and you could assume that the powers that be hadn't playtested the material. However, now it says "official" on the cover and one should assume that the material has been tested and found balancing. That is however not the case as also with the now too numerous splat books coming out at a clip of 2-3 a month from WotC. I have to add that the layout changes made recently would make me less likely to but Dragon. The layout in uninspired, you went from interesting background to plain vanilla white with less art per article. The art provided a suitable inspiration to the material being presented. Now I feel like I am reading a text book. The addition of one-page class articles is so-so. One month I get new rogue special abilities (good) the next month I get what equipment a druid should carry in his backpack (are you serious? is your demographic a 10 year old with no gaming experience?). I agree with the other posters that Dragon should provide flavor. There are enough feats and prestige classes out there. Give me more Ecologys, more background on Faerun, Greyhawk and Eberron, flesh out the Planes (the article on the Shadow City rocked and left me wanting more material).


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## Alnag

I don't buy Dragon magazine (and Dungeon) because I can not buy it here in Czech republic. It is hard enought to get the d20 books which are not published by WotC (and since Dragon is published by Paizo) our distributor did not sold it.


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## Wraith Form

Shade said:
			
		

> 1.) Knight vs. Samurai style articles. That issue had me seriously pondering dropping the magazine the next time renewal was up. In fact, most of the post-"Dragon Unleashed" issues have excited me about as much as junk mail. About the only things I've really liked lately are the revised monsters from past editions in Winning Races (grippli, lupins), the occasional new monster, the comics, and Sage Advice.
> 
> 2.) I'm going to second wilder_jw on fiction. I've never read a single fiction article in Dragon and never intend to (and I was a 1E subscriber for many years and purchased the archive on CD-ROM). Those pages might as well be advertisements for their usefulness to me.
> 
> 3.) Maintaining that Dragon be "player-focused", at the expense of DMs. I'll be honest with you, the first thing I look for in a new issue is new monsters, followed by planar material and anything that brings back something great from past editions of the game.
> 
> 4.) Increasing amounts of Eberron material. I know it has every right and reason to be in there, but I have no interest in that setting and would much rather see space devoted to any of the settings of past editions. I realize I'm probably in the minority on this one.
> 
> 5.) More and more focus on educating new players on the simplest of ideas of the game. I don't need an article to tell me that I can deal more damage with a greataxe than a short sword, or that a party should have a cleric.
> 
> Thanks for listening and striving to improve the magazine!



I quoted this simply because Shade's summed it up pretty well for me. 

Now first of all, please don't take it personally that we're not fond of Dragon these days, Erik. We still "LUUUUUUUUH" ya just as much as we always have.

Also, I devotedly buy/bought Dungeon (even when it was getting pretty awful, a few months ago), so I'm still supporting Paizo. Dungeon is useful to me becasue I can *YOINK* plot ideas, NPCs, maps, whatever. Dragon...well...for some reason it just doesn't do "it" for me.

I accidentally bought the most recent copy of Dragon because....well, quite frankly, because I thought it was a new copy of Dungeon--and that brings up a small issue/point, that the type used for the 2 magazines' titles are too similar. But I shrugged and leafed through it anyway.

I actually kinda liked the newest issue of Dragon (the one about dungeoneering), but (as Shade says) I felt it was geared towards 1) munchkins and/or 2) newbies. Much of the flavor text seems repetative, almost cookie-cutter nowadays. Not everybody is an Ed Greenwood or Wolfgang Bauer, but sheesh...it all seems so....so....bland, so "been there, done that".

I remember when TSR/WotC used to have 5 or 6 campaign settings going at once, and Dragon was supporting EACH of these settings with an article or two in Dragon.  (And Dungeon featured 4 - 6 adventures in each issue, some of them also supporting those CSes!)  There was variety.  There was choice.  Not everyone liked the CSes that were featured, but there seemed to be a little bit for everyone's tastes.

So, combined with what Shade indicated, those are the reasons why I've been feeling kinda tepid regarding Dragon. I still get it, but I find it's lost much of the spark that it once had.


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## jshelky

First, I'd like to chime in and agree with the many people mentioning the desperate need for a yearly index, be it online or in the mag.  Since the advent of 3.0 there have been so many crunchy bits published that it's almost imposible to sort out.  Add the fact that so many of them are feats that appear somewhere in the middle of an article makes it a huge hassle to find what you're looking for.  As a consequence even though I have subscribed since 274 the only issues my group and I use are the fighter and magic themed issues that came out for 3.5.  There's lots of other stuff I'd like but it's not readily available.  Currently the usefullness of an index would inspire me to re-up my sub just knowing I'd get better use from the magazine.

Second, I'll also say that although I understand that people may read the fiction is has always been a waste of space in my opinion.  I subscribed/purchased Dragon from issues 100 to 200 and 274 on and in all that time I've only ever read "The Test of the Twins" and ignored all the other fiction.  On the reverse end of that I always loved pages from the mages, not for the new spells but rather whatever story Elminster had to go with them this time.  I guess I just prefer the short stories that go with the actuall articles rather than just the stories themselves.

Last, and this is a little off topic.  I realize that a number of both prestige classes and feats have made it into "official" products over the years, but I and my group as a whole would love to see some compilation books that reprinted and update to 3.5 articles from dragon.  There's easily enough info out there to do a Dragon magazine Greyhawk special edition.  Or a book of feats and equipment, a book of prestige classes etc. It's a product we've hoped for since the 3.0 issues began and would happily gobble up.

Thanks for your time, I hope you continue to grow the fan base and keep Dragon going strong.


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## der_kluge

I skimmed a lot of the responses here, since I didn't want them to alter my opinions, or give me ideas to detract me from my response.

Having said that, I would echo the general theme of too much crunch as my biggest complaint.  I just don't need any more monk variants or samurais in my campaign.  I'm not 12 years old anymore.

What I would don't want to see in Dragon:

No fiction
No more prestige classes, or only very, very rarely.  
Less crunch.  I can see that you guys are awful proud of it, because issues lately boast it on a seal on the cover: "184 prestige classes, 1,246 new feats!" Bah.

What I do want to see in Dragon:

Writers who actually recognize that there is a popular 3rd party market out there.  The only reference to 3rd party products are in the advertisements that they buy.  It's like buying USA Today and seeing no mention of the Middle East.  I think the best "issue" you guys did was the special d20 issue where you actually reviewed AEG's modules, and talked candidly about the license and other publishers.  That was great!  More reviews of 3rd party products, more discussions of 3rd party products.  Use 3rd party OGC - that's what it's there for.

Echoed on here a lot already - more plot hooks, campaign ideas, world-building rules, etc.  DM's read Dragon more than players do, I suspect.

Lastly, - invite feedback!  I let my subscription expire several months ago.  Before that, the only "articles" I ever read were Gygax's column, the letters to the editor, and maybe the occasional article by Monte or Skip if I saw something that caught my eye.  That was pretty much it.  On feedback, I'd like to see a regular column where readers can contribute.  The thing I love about ENworld is that I can ask people about their campaign settings, their interesting games, or neat ideas that they've used.  I love this place for the ideas.  I don't get that from Dragon.  Feature a special segment where people can send in their failed Campaign setting submission.  I suspect many of them are really, really cool, even though they didn't win.  Eberron isn't everyone's cup of joe.  Most people I know don't follow the "corporate line" when it comes to their campaign setting.  Even people who run FR or Eberron are probably using at least 1 or 2 3rd party products, or homebrew modifications.  The game I'm currently playing in is set in Harn, using the d20 rules, for example.


Erik, I suspect you have a balancing act to perform.  On the one hand, you seek to give what the readers want - a noble goal.  On the other, I imagine that you have to tow the corporate line and have to maintain a certain image and responsibility to the magazine since it *is* a vehicle for advertising for WoTC and D&D.  You have to ask yourself which is more important - increasing the fan base, or pleasing your corporate masters?


----------



## Sholari

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> >>>
> Hmmm... after a long hiatus, I actually DID get a subscription again, to both dungeon AND dragon. I ordered mine on 9-9 of this year. It is now december, and I have yet to receive my first copy.... if this keeps up, this will definately be a very good reason to never buy again....
> >>>
> 
> Yikes. No kidding. Have you contacted customer service?
> 
> --Erik




I've had issues with delivery of Dungeon as well, but Jeremy in your customer service has been great.  I'm wondering if your IT system or fulfillment house may be having issues.


----------



## Voadam

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> So, if you're _not_ a regular customer of Dragon magazine (let's say you buy fewer than three issues annually), please take a minute or two to answer the following questions.
> 
> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?
> 
> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?
> 
> I very much appreciate your time and attention.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Erik Mona
> Editor-in-Chief
> Dragon Magazine (and Dungeon too!)
> Still on vacation, still working




I don't subscribe or buy regularly.

I have under 10 issues in print, none from the 3e era.

I have the 25 year CD compilation and think it is awesome.

I can sort of justify storing books, but magazines are thrown out regularly in my house (my wife subscribes to a dozen, me none) and I wouldn't want to throw them out or store them so I don't buy them.

If there was another CD compilation I would snatch it up in an instant. Or if it was available as pdfs (NON-DRM) on rpgnow.com.


----------



## TomCosta

As a sometimes contributor and current subscriber, I can only really respond to your second question Erik.

I find the recent change in Dragon less appealing.  I've been playing D&D for over 25 years and collecting Dragon for most of those years.  I liked the mix of player and DM oriented material. I like longer articles (and also well thought out themed-issues) that delve more deeply into a subject -- it  makes it easier to add that theme into your campaign.  I like the color text that often only comes from placing an article in a campaign setting (though the how-to-convert-to-other-campaigns sidebars are a necessary and great addition), but I wouldn't mind if Wizards didn't treat such "campaign"-oriented articles as canon (as long as that decision was clear from the outset).

I, unlike most of the contributors to this thread, like crunch.  I like monsters that my players have never seen, but I also like the color text and campaign text that often used to exist.  Having the campaign fluff helps figure out where the monster, class, or whatever might fit in my campaign and makes the article come more to life.  The old 1E NPC class articles used to be my favorite articles wehn I was younger.  I always wanted to play the latest class.  I still love that stuff.  Consequently, I love the prestige classes.  That said, 3E and 3.5E (not just Dragon) have cut back on the color text that provided more context and excitement to articles.  I like other crunch like feats and new items, but feel most of those (not all) fit better in the context of a bigger article such as monsters or prestige classes.  I like new magic items and spells and am less finicky about them having the color text and campaign text, though sometimes that can be the best part.

I've never been one for most of the advice articles, but I'd rather read 5 pages of Gygax's articles once every few months than one page a month.  It is too disjointed.  The fiction is often good, but I read so much I rarely read the stories appearing in the magazine, though I don't mind it being there.  I agree the quality of the comics has diminished overall, but its not a big selling point for me.  I agree on using less recycled artwork, but again not a big selling point for me.

An index would be phenomenal, but I think it should be for everyone online.  But also other user aids would be great.  Articles that occasionally index something or other could also be helpful or collect tables into easy pull-out sheets....

As for Dungeon I subscribe mostly out of a sense of completeness and to catch the occasional something or other that really catches my eye.  I usually craft my own adventures, so rarely use Dungeon for that, but sometimes use the maps and sometimes bits of the adventures for my own campaigns.

So with that said, please don't hold anything I've said here against any potential future submissions. ;-)

Good luck Erik and thanks for soliciting our opinions.


----------



## smetzger

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?




I haven't bought since 1e.  Art doesn't apeal to me.  Questionably balance issues.  Internet has replaced Dragon as a way to get ideas outside of my current gaming group.



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?




OGL content could bring me back.


----------



## Omote

I've only read like 5 or 6 issues of Dragon since the 3.0 games was released.  Overall, there is just too much not-so-good stuff in there.  I wish i could be more specific, but I get the sense that everybody else on these baords has covered what I could.  The only thing I could suggest is (as I would like to see) is that the content overall get better.  Maybe Dragon should be a bi-monthly zine, that way the not so good stuff can get weeded out, and make the good stuff a lot stronger.

It was said a lot on these boards, but FLUFF is important.  The "historical" articles that I read were always pretty good.  Really it seems that each issue is got a bit too much "crunch" to it.  It seems a bit overwhelming as there is too much "junk."  Overall quality seems pretty low.  Production values may be high, but content is the key.

Again, I'm not a subscriber, and havn't been since the 2nd ed days - so take my views with a grain of salt.

...............................Omote
FPQ


----------



## GlassJaw

Lots of great comments so far so I'll just repeat a few:

Dislikes:
Fiction and comics - never read
Crunch - never use
Mini stuff
Eberron or other campaign specific material

I'd almost like to see Dragon be the D&D National Geographic.  I'd like to see articles on historical settings, unique places, creatures and races, etc.  Ideas are what drives the game IMO, not new PrC's and feats.  

Erik, I love the new Dungeon and I really appreciate the concern for the fans.  The new format for Dungeon brought me back and I have the upmost confidence it could happen with Dragon too.


----------



## SandraWinters

There are a few reasons why I do not buy _Dragon_, but they are more personal reasons that the fault of the magazine.  One major reason is that I am having trouble finding any sort of job, and therefore cannot afford it.  Second, I don't know anyone around my area who is into gaming anymore, so I would never use it in a game.


----------



## diaglo

i miss Wormy


----------



## fredramsey

I DO subscribe to Dragon and Dungeon.

However, I have never read any fiction story in Dragon.

Fiction doesn't belong in Dragon. Period.

The only fiction people might EVEN begin to like would be D&D fiction. And then it should deal with some article in the magazine - sort of illustrating its use. That I might read, maybe. Or a small ongoing story about the same group of adventurers.

But the best bet would be no fiction at all.

I vote more fluff less crunch, too.


----------



## antpasq

diaglo said:
			
		

> i miss Wormy




I second that!!! Find wormy and bring him back.

Something I forgot in my post: no more fiction, I agree it's a waste of space. I read plenty enough on my own.


----------



## EricNoah

I've gotten to the point where I don't have a lot of use for more "tools" or "pieces" -- I like to see what already exists all put together.  That's where Dungeon shines in a lot of ways.  I also have been put off by the greater emphasis on the D&D minis.  And I've been buying less D&D stuff lately anyway.


----------



## Sundog

Arcane Runes Press said:
			
		

> Generally, there's not much passion in the magazine anymore. I see usable mechanics, sometimes innovative mechanics, but I don't see text with them that makes me want to use them.
> ....
> The ecology articles used to inspire, they told stories, they were funny or creepy or exciting.
> ...
> This applies to most everything in the magazine.
> ...
> So what would make me happier, and encourage me to buy more? Cutting open the creative veins again. Getting a bit crazier with your articles, and a return of more pure flavor, flavor, flavor.




This pretty much sums everything up for me. I still subscribe but I'm not sure I'm going to renew. I'll definitely keep my Dungeon subscription, though. Thanks Erik!


----------



## Dragonhelm

*My two steel.*

I'll offer some thoughts both on Dragon and Dungeon.

My favorite part of Dungeon was the mini-games in Polyhedron.  I'm sure they weren't always the easiest thing to put together, but the idea that I could get a mini-game every couple of months was fantastic.  The adventures don't always appeal to me.  As for the recent GM-centric articles, I haven't seen anything that grabs me.  Dungeon just doesn't seem to have anything that attracts me, so I hardly ever pick up a copy.

As for Dragon, I have picked it up a bit more recently, mainly due to the articles dealing with conversions of 2nd edition setting materials.  The issue you had a while back that was all about the D&D settings was my favorite in a long while.  Seeing articles like the recent one on the Lupin was good too.  

Setting updates are always welcome, although I would advise caution on how you approach things.  The Dark Sun update had some good points to it (i.e. LA for each race), but being that it was a PHB-centric approach and not true to the setting (i.e. half-giants and axis alignment, cannibalistic halflings), it just wasn't as good as it could have been.

The problem with Dragon at times is that it becomes just another splat book.  Yes, I like new rules, but the crunch has to be balanced with the fluff.  Just another Ultimate Warrior PrC (example) does nothing for me.  What I would like to see is something new and different.  The Bloodline feats, for example, are a good use of rules that can add a certain amount of fluff.  

Here are some things I would like to see:

1.  More mini-settings and updates to older settings.  Rules are the tools that one uses in order to adventure.  We need more places to have those adventures.  

Perhaps you could design your own setting and detail it bit by bit each issue.  That would be something new and exciting, plus it would keep readers hooked.

2.  Provide something new and different.  Whether rules or fluff, give me something new.  Articles on optimizing character classes or how to be a better GM hold little to no interest for me.  I've been playing/GMing for about 13 years now.  I think I can manage.

Instead, I'd like to see new ideas for games.  Bloodline feats are a way to do it in a crunchy fashion.  More fluff articles would be helpful too.  Maybe articles on how to play games with certain themes (i.e. swashbuckling, grim and gritty).  Perhaps some articles on running a world without magic, or one where there are psionics but no magic.

If you do provide new crunchy stuff, then please shy away from concepts that have been done over and over.  Swashbuckler type of characters have been done.  No need for any new PrCs there.  Doing a beast rider would be better.  Even though it has been done, the only examples I can think of are the 2e Complete Fighter's Handbook and the mounted warrior in Warcraft.

3.  Psionics.  They're finally getting some support after all these years, and I'd like to see more of it.  Get Mark Jindra and Scott Brocious (sp?) to write more articles on psionics, like what they did with the Mind's Eye articles.

4.  Bard on the Run - I loved those articles for the April issue.  Bring it back!

5.  More 3rd party material.  I don't know what your agreement is with WotC, but maybe more materials compatable with systems like Arcana Unearthed.  Maybe a few non-d20 products (Yes, they still exist!) could be looked at too.  

Anyway, those are a few thoughts from me.  Basically, I want to be able to open Dragon each month and say, "Wow, look at this!  Neat concept!  I'll have to try that out!".  

What I don't want is to pick up an issue, realize there's nothing inside that interests me, and question why I even bought it.  I know not every article will appeal to me, but I hope that at least one will per issue and that I will feel that the magazine was not only worth buying, but worth using.

Hope that helps.


----------



## kennew142

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I'm about half-way through a much needed vacation, so of course I'm sitting here thinking about work.
> 
> I know many of you _do_ buy Dragon regularly, and for that I send you a hearty holdiay cheer and a simple statement: thanks.
> 
> But I also know that many of you don't buy Dragon, and I'd like to know why. Over my 20+ years as a D&D player, I've had "on" periods and "off" periods with the magazine, so I know what sorts of things went into my personal decision not to buy Dragon, but I'd like to know yours.
> 
> If I can make some changes to the magazine to make it a more attractive purchase, there's a chance we all go away happy.
> 
> So, if you're _not_ a regular customer of Dragon magazine (let's say you buy fewer than three issues annually), please take a minute or two to answer the following questions.
> 
> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?
> 
> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?
> 
> I very much appreciate your time and attention.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Erik Mona
> Editor-in-Chief
> Dragon Magazine (and Dungeon too!)
> Still on vacation, still working




1. I do buy the magazine, but will likely stop after this subscription runs out. I don't like having so many feats and prestige classes in each issue. I do not use them, and I'm unlikely to allow them in any game I'm running.

2. I would like to see articles related to specific campaign worlds. This includes Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Eberron (yes, this one too). Let's not forget the classic D&D campaign worlds such as Dark Sun, Planescape, Birthright and Ravenloft. It would also be nice to see articles pertaining to the worlds of other publishers, especially Arcanis or Freeport.

Put all the articles about gaming back in Dragon. Over the last 25+ years, I've been mostly interested in the articles about campaign design, monsters, adaptations from history and fiction, and those that presented new cabals, organizations and enemies. I'm going to buy Dungeon for the adventures, no matter what. In which magazine would you publish an article that detailed a secret organization that could be used as an enemy or a patron to player characters?

No fiction. Since issue #39 I've read only two pieces of fiction that have appeared in the magazine.

Get rid of the D&D minis articles. What a waste of space. I think you will find that most RPGers have a very negative reaction to seeing this in the magazine. I would feel the same way if the magazine included a monthly article on card games. Slapping a D&D label on a miniatures (or card game) DOES NOT make it D&D.

Stop assuming that every reader is a newbie trying to learn "what a druid should carry in his backpack!"

More articles that include variations on the core rules, as opposed to new ways to munchkin out a character. I really liked the article that included a 3 ed look at defiler magic!

Articles that are useful for playing the game (as opposed to a monotonous list of new feats and prestige classes), such as a random treasure table that included all of the magic items from the core rules, the Complete Books, the Expanded Psionics Book, the Forgotten Realms books, etc.... Articles on naming characters and developing interesting background stories.

Oh well, I've ranted enough. I'll reiterate one point. Moving the GM articles to Dungeon has decreased the utility of the magazine (for me) to the point where I'll likely let my subscription lapse. As a GM, if I don't buy it, I won't be able to read it, none of the players in my game will be able to use it, so they will have no reason to buy it either.

Thanks,

Kenneth New


----------



## Harlock

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> So, if you're _not_ a regular customer of Dragon magazine (let's say you buy fewer than three issues annually), please take a minute or two to answer the following questions.
> 
> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?
> 
> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?




Well, I am one of your pains in the ass.  I subscribed for two years solid but let my subscription falter after the "format" change in issue 323.  The new format was not real pretty, maybe the kinks are worked out now, I dunno.  What don't I like about the changes?  Fair enough. I'm going through page by page and some of this is idicative of just this issue while other points are definitely a habit of Dragon in  general.

1. All the sidebars made it too busy and seemed to cut down on real content.  Knowledge check, question: Conan, what is best in life?  Answer: We all know, don't waste space in a magazine I paid for to rehash that!  on the same page we have a plug for a wbsite that sells gaming-related T-shirts.  Guess what?  Still not enthused.  If I want a t-shirt I'll google for it, thanks. Next page?  Plush microbes and of course, the link to buy them... no thanks.

2. The focus on D&D/WotC specific crap.  Yes, I know this is a WotC licensed product, but my hopes were high that when Paizo took the license we'd see some changes.  Looking through the magazine I see articles for the D&D Miniatures game.  Well, there's and article I won't bother with, I see som feats at the end... too little too late.  I don't play the minis game, I buy the minis and even own the minis Handbook, but I use them in tabletop D&D, not the CMG.  

Next Article: Stuff on a D&D Young Adult line from, you guessed it, WotC.  Great. I'm 31 and my oldest child is 5.  The cheesy attempt to give it some sort of value by including stat blocks of characters from the novel only served to take up even more space that could have been used for something cool.  And, if you have the issue out, Erik, please look into the wasted space on page 31, 34, 52, 66, 71, 78 - really terrible here, 80, 86 (using 24 pt type and leaving 2 standard columns of space on either side of the article title is a sophomorish attempt at best to cover up for lack of real content), 90, 92, 110, and a bit on 130 as well.  

Erik, this is unforgiveable.  As a journalism student in high School I was taught not to waste space as badly as this.  It's jarring to the reader to turn a page and see so much white space and you're not fooling anyone.  Add some art, even stock art, put a preface by the author covering intent or something, anything!

3. Articles that are not WotC specific are hit or miss at best.  An entire two pages dedicated to Chocobos from Final Fantasy?  An article comparing and contrasting Knights and Samurai asking who would win and then not answering the question?  Thanks for the 10 page history lesson but how does it help my _Dungeons and Dragons_ game?  Wanna see who wins?  Roll up two characters and have three battles.

4.  This is a personal thing, but I don't play video games, so huge articles dedicated to the next, new, hot D&D game only serves as eye candy as I look at the graphics as I flip to the next article.  



> What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?




Thanks for asking, all this negativity was getting to me!  You had some great things in this issue, don't get me wrong.  I loved the class specific articles at the back. Even if I don't use the ideas, it got me thinking.  The Seven Deadly Sins domains articles was spiffy.  May not ever use it either, but at least it's D&D.  The Ecology articles are _*ALWAYS*_ welcome.  I'm not a pure crunch person, though looking at this I sound like it.  Truly, I like fluff, but it needs to be specific: ideas for Campaign settings, 100 adventure hooks that don't suck, Ecology articles, stuff like that.  

Also, and very important to get me back as a subscriber, more OGL content and previews/reviews of d20 product that is not WotC.  Campaign settings, feat books, cool web sites that don't sell t-shirts or plushy microbes...

*My Main Point*: I buy Dragon for using at my table top D&D games as both a player and DM and as a consumer to see what else is coming down the pipe for use in my tabletop game.  If I want a Fantasy fiction magazine about literature, I'll buy one.  If I want a video game magazine, I'll google up articles that are all over the web or I'll buy one.  If I want a D&D magazine... to whom do I turn... now?


----------



## swrushing

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?



I was last subscribed during my dnd 3.0 game and that subscription came up for renewal as 3.5 came out. i let it lapse because i was not converting over to 3.5 and i figured the bulk of the material in dragon would be keeping up with the new edition. Matter of fact, the last couple issues i got were 3.5 previews or somesuch. they were mostly unread.

Nowadays, i may end up going a little into 3.5, as in i plan to run a Black Company game, once green Ronin's sourcebook comes out, which is based off 3.5's system. i pretty much plan to just use the SRD. The other game i am involved in using Midnight. I expect to see little support for these in dragon, so... not much draw there.



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?





All my current games-in-progress or "on the horizon" games are not DND but some are third party d20/OGL games, so unless dragon started really upping the amoutn of third party game lines support, there would not be much of a draw for me.

maybe its a mark of the success of the OGL notion, but the quality of third party products has gone up so much AND the variety of them (no longer are they just DnD clones) is now so far from DND that predominantly DnD based material is less and less of use or interest to me and those i know who are gaming.


----------



## Style

kennew142 said:
			
		

> I'll reiterate one point. Moving the GM articles to Dungeon has decreased the utility of the magazine (for me) to the point where I'll likely let my subscription lapse. As a GM, if I don't buy it, I won't be able to read it, none of the players in my game will be able to use it, so they will have no reason to buy it either.




Reiterating myself as well, but I do think that this a key issue.  The best stuff has been moved over to _Dungeon_, leaving precious little meat for _Dragon_, so no wonder that _Dragon_ suffers as a result and no wonder that folks like the new _Dungeon_ so much.  

For me the solution would be to reincorporate all gaming articles into _Dragon_ and make room for more or bigger adventures in _Dungeon_.  Maure Castle and the Isle of Dread were great.  Wouldn't it be wonderful to have room to do something like this on a regular basis?  A Return to the Barrier Peaks, Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, the Desert of Desolation or any of the classics (not to mention a truly meaty Adventure Path series) would be so much more feasible if the balance was restored to the winning approach of former years.  

Erik, if you are wondering why interest in _Dragon_ is flagging, it is because it has had half of its heart ripped out and left with fleshy pulp in its place.  Give the old girl her heart back and let _Dungeon_ develop into a top-notch source for the kinds of weighty adventures that folks are clamouring for - the kind that WotC no longer publishes at all.


----------



## ShadowDenizen

Interesting question, Erik, and something I think about from time to time.

I'll preface my comments by saying that I used to be an avid "Dragon" reader for many, many years: I never missed a month.  I still refer to many of the old articles, which we've updated to 3rd Edition.. (The two-part article on "The Nine Hells" published way-back-when, the "Witch" character class, the "Death Master". and lots of other stuff, which I won't enumerate here.)  But towards the end of 2nd Edition and into 3rd Edition, I've lost the love I used to have.

I guess the reason I don't read "Dragon" now is manyfold. (Some of which you have no control over, of course.): many of these were already listed by others, but I'm still including them in my list, simply as an FYI.

First, I'm an older gamer, so I already have tons and tons of stuff that I've purchased over the years that fits my  needs, or that I can adapt with some effort.

Second, I don't buy much WotC stuff in general.  My interest lies in "fluff" more than crunch. I buy stuff from Fantasy Flight (the "Midnight" setting, AEG, Mongoose (Conan, Lone Wolf, B5).  I bought and -loved- 
the "Draconomicon", but I was sorely disappointed by "Libris Mortis."

Third, (and this is just MHO), I'll agree with *Arcane Runes Press*:







> The text is dry, in other words, and lacks the manic wonder that lots of the older issues had - the good natured humour and oddball enthusiasm isn't there as much, and the magazine reads more like a trade journal than a place where writers and fans come together to gush about their enthusiasms.



  I'll go further and say that "Dragon" seems like it's currently geared towards the teenager set. ("Add gunpowder to your D+D game!", "How to play a Dragon PC", "13 new prestige classes", "27 new feats", etc.) 

Fourth, I used to also look forward to the campaign-specific info. (Again, I culled lots of great Dark-Sun, Ravenloft and Planescape info in years-gone-by.): since I don't play Eberron, Forgotten Realms, and there seems to be very little Greyhawk stuff, this is not a factor anymore.

Fifth, the "Dark-Sun" revision.  While I appreciate that you wanted to revive an older campaign-setting, but, IMHO, the revisions didn't live up to the original in any way, and more, (again, IMO), it disprespected the source material.  I understand, from reading the authors posts, why things happened the way they did, but the whole issue didn't sit well with me.

Sixth, the price to usefulness ratio. (Again, this is something you probably have no control over.): $7 a month is quite expensive for me to get some articles of dubious usefullness.  It seems like the page-count is low for the amount of actual infomration the reader gets, as the few issues I leafed through over the past year have more and more pages of ads.


----------



## Emirikol

Erik:

I've been a subscriber for maybe a dozen years.  I see the current lack of integration with actual campaign lines and the RPGA to be the main drawback.  Sure, this is an official D&D magazine, but it caters only to "home" gamers.

I don't have much home gaming time left anymore, so I rely on the RPGA and published campaigns to fill my time.  If an article appears in Dragon that doesn't 'fit,'[EDIT: specifically tailored to a world that I use or the RPGA] it becomes useless to me..really.  Well, look at where we are now.

Another thing I've noticed that even though I leave it on our gaming table when we game, none of the other players ever picks it up and reads it.  Perhaps it should say "share this with your players" right on the cover.  Maybe there's a 'don't touch my stuff' attitude in D&D too that could be overcome.  You know, the opposite of what is written on a bag of a certain brand of potato chips could be included.

The article quality is otherwise excellent and I'm very happy with the consistent new formatting (thank you, thank you thank you).  But, it's integration into the 'official' stuff is what's really lacking now.

You know, Dungeon has this thing called, "Adapting the adventure."  It shows how to adapt to different levels (the greatest thing ever for scenarios..makes them immensely more useful).  Why doesn't each Dragon (and DUNGEON) article have the same sidebar for adapation in each of the three major D&D worlds?

Lastly, I know the RPGA may be hard to work with, but continued integration with them may be a good draw too.

JayH


..


----------



## Eosin the Red

I only purchase sporadically now days and here is why:

1.	If you can say it in 2 pages I have already heard it. Get into the subject – especially in the meaty articles. If you do an article on sewers then show me examples – like the much touted Paris sewers, compare that with other sewers in Europe and or Asia.
2.	Bland writing. I just read another thread about great articles – it mentioned Saintly Standards an article I will still refer to on occasion. I still sometimes get out the article on the Red Sails Campaign but I did not finish any of the articles in the most recent magazine.
3.	Both of these are just ways of saying entertain me. I don’t buy the magazine for rules or to learn of the newest “heavenly, half a what-cha-ma-call-it, half-thingy-ma-bob, vampire, ascended, plane touched, fighter-sorcerer-halfling” I buy the magazine to be entertained and right now it ain’t doing that.
4.	I cannot say it enough or loud enough so I will say it again – The magazine should be fun to read all by itself. It should be entertaining. It should be relevant even if I play Hero System instead of d20 (I did not say it should have Hero articles BUT I did say that I should be able to use many of the articles for whatever game system I want). 
5.	The great advertisement! Dragon focuses overmuch on the most current WotC product especially hyped products like Draconomicon or Vile Darkness. There is nothing wrong with thematically supporting products but that is rarely what happens – instead we get “you can use product X like this” and “cool feat from product X.”  If you want to support Vile Darkness write an article on the use of horrific enemies in the RPGs. Give me a write-up on Saint Kargoth. Talk about Death-Knights in Greyhawk (PS – that was also a really good article even if it was in poly). 

In conclusion, purpose of the magazine is profit and the way to profit is to provide entertainment value to a broad range of people. Focusing on gizmos does not do that (but there is nothing wrong with a recurring article on gizmos like Bizarre of the Bizarre). Focusing on providing informative and compelling articles that are useful in ANY fantasy campaign is a must but it does not have to be generic. You could have an article called “Cities of Eberron” and make the article useful to any campaign and you can do it without the use of a sidebar. It takes more skillful writing but it is perfectly doable, in fact Dragon has done it before. Entertain. Enthrall. Write good fiction not technical fiction. 

Oh yeah, kudos on continuing to always strive to get better. Dragon and Dungeon have some really good things going for them but that is not what this thread is about – lest this post end on a bad note I will finish with this: The Dungeon magazine with the first of the Istivan series contained the single best written setting and intro module that I have read in a very long time. The villain and his methods are insanely well done. This adventure can be taken and played anywhere and in nearly any setting. The antagonist is someone/thing that can be easily morphed into just about any homebrew unlike your previous series which focused on a heavily monster infested world with everybody having at least one dose of what-ya-ma-gigging. I had nearly given up on Dungeon but my faith was renewed. Thank you.

With all that – you guys do a great job.

"Kewl are only cool for a moment, entertaining articles endure no matter what the edtion or system of the game."


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## HalWhitewyrm

There are two big reasons why I don't buy Dragon anymore (and pretty much haven't in the last two years, with a few exceptions, like the issue with articles for all the out-of-print campaigns):

1- WotC-only showcase: Since the release of 3e and the OGL, I would have thought that Dragon would emerge as a general RPG mag, with a preference for WotC material. But the magazine is all WotC stuff, without nods to the other good campaigns out there by 3rd party publishers. If I wanted to know more about FR, Eberron, Dragonlance, etc. I can just go and buy the respective books, just create it myself or go online and do a search to see what others have done. This WotC-only policy leads me to #2.

2- No OGC: All the material in Dragon is closed content, which means that if it's not for home use, then I can't touch it. As a freelancer, I prefer to stay away from closed content material so as to avoid any influence when I am writing my own products. The biggest thing about 3e for me was the OGL and the spirit of cooperation and openness it brought, and Dragon remaining closed content only goes against that spirit. That's why I loved Campaign magazine, crude as it was; I was sad to see it go.

I like the bew feature of having a one-page article with something for each core class, but due to #2 above I never do more than skim through the mag, read the titles and put it back on the rack.

What would get me buying again? Dragon opening up and becoming a OGC magazine, not just a WotC brochure. I realize I am probably in the minority, but I would like to see Dragon stop being just about official D&D and become THE D&D/d20 magazine for the industry.

Daniel M. Perez
halwhitewyrm@yahoo.com


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## alsih2o

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?
> 
> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?




 1. I am never anywhere where it is offered. It isn't at my grocery store  and I have been in a game shop maybe twice in two years.

 2. Get it out of the bookstores and game shops and into my PC. Make it all available online and I will subscribe and peruse. Perhaps a subscription service that lets me see this months and flip through some archives? I would pay through the nose for that.


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## jodyjohnson

One time subscriber to Dragon.  Current subscriber to Dungeon.

DM and sometime player, only magazine subscriber in my circle.

1.  Dragon is available at the library.  (Dungeon isn't and has more ownership value.)

2.  Getting burned out on crunch.  The WotC production schedule and 3rd party material is more than sufficient to meet my need for crunch.  Too much crunch in Dragon.

3.  All the good crunch ends up in the books anyway.  Seems like it's tossed out there for playtesting but then very few games allow Dragon crunch in to actually test before it hits the WotC book.

4.  Sage Advice was major motivator for purchase but hits the FAQ reasonably soon.  A big chunk of the role of Sage Advice for us has been met by EN World Rules forum and to a lesser degree the Wizard boards.

5.  Too many short articles and lack of depth.

6.  Too many campaign specific articles that are primarily crunch (prc, regional feats, spells tied to NPCs or deities).

7.  Magazine content is harder to pull cruch out of than web based content.  Magazines are less accessible to the DnD group as a whole.  At least the books stay in print longer if we suddenly find the urge to go on a targent.

----Some things that make me pick up an issue.
1.  A solid insert:  maps, battle maps, cardstock tiles, useful tokens

2.  Historical articles that are applied to gaming fluff.  Especially with photos, maps, and diagrams.  Real world castles, dungeons, temples, buildings, exotic terrain, medieval gear.

3.  When the theme happens to match my focus or current interest.

----Articles which I enjoy reading
1.  New edition teasers for upcoming changes (lead up to 3.0 especially).  Articles that help me plan for what's coming 6+ months down the road so our group can transition.  They need to contain enough crunch to start incorporating the upcoming changes.  (Although 4.0 might end our upgrading if it comes too soon.)

2.  New or old creatures given the Ecology treatment but heavy on the fluff.  Especially when the fluff involves narrative with character, mood, and setting.  A 3 page article with raw stat blocks doesn't do much for me.

3.  A new or old prestige class (or feat) appended to fictional narrative emphasizing the class's (or feat's) flavor and how it ties into the specific setting (maybe with a sidebar on other settings).  Include NPC stat blocks and descriptions.

4.  Giants of the Earth - updated for 3.5, heavy on the historical fluff.  Triple statted for low magic/historical, standard campaign, and epic.

5.  Alternative (non-canonical) stats for campaign specific NPCs heavy on the fluff.  New NPCs with campaign specific fluff.  Targetted at alternate epic or low magic settings.  (e.g.  an Epic Lord of the Blades, or a low level Robilar or Mordenkainen).

6.  Character maximizing articles disguised in narrative.  The optimizations can be subscripted.


Primarily articles that are interesting to read and generate character or campaign ideas even if I don't use the crunch.


----------



## Album Cover X

I agree with many of the common ideas here on how Dragon can be improved...

But my reason for not buying Dragon is simple:

Bad customer service experience. Its something a company literally cannot afford to have happen. I was a subscriber of 3 years or so and then I moved cross-country at about the same time my subscripition was ending. I renewed it, sent in my new info/address. And nothing. You guys have my money but I don't have any issues to show for it.

I did contact customer service... exchanged a few emails... people were "looking into the matter" and then nothing. And all this is now well over a year ago so it comes to a point where its not worth; I have plenty of other stuff to worry about.

I enjoyed getting the mag and was more than willing to renew. But its hard to get excited about it now after my experience. And since you asked the question, I thought relaying my experience here is justified.


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## Gez

Because it's too expensive. Because it's only in hobby stores (and then again, not always), not in the local newspaper shop. (See location.) 

Still, I bought one. #285.


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## McBard

_Dungeon_ and _Dragon_ magazines must find niches not already well-filled by two other prolific sources:  1) WoTC's monthly product releases and 2) the Internet (e.g. EN World, message boards, fan sites).

The new _Dungeon_ clearly has found its well-defined niche: high-quality (certainly in production value, mostly in content) adventures.  Regarding the above two other sources of D&D material, WoTC no longer really provides published adventure modules (certainly not three every month like _Dungeon_) and the Internet (fan-generated adventure material) comes nowhere close in quality.  Kudos to _Dungeon_ and keep 'em coming!

As far as _Dragon_ goes, contrastingly, *both* sources outshine it: WoTC's releases cover the crunch (MM II, Frostburn, Races of fill-in-the-blank, et al); and the Internet (message boards) cover the hashing out of rules. The Internet obviously produces a lot of crunch--and some of it is often of good quality (e.g. the Sorcerer fixes).

What does that leave for _Dragon_to fill?  I'm not sure.  But not fantasy fiction (that niche is much better provided for by...well, fantasy fiction book and comic publishing).

Perhaps _Dragon_ should throw itself into the actual worlds of D&D:  geography, flora, flauna, history, people of Eberron, Faerun, Oerth, and all the rest.


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## Wraith Form

die_kluge said:
			
		

> What I do want to see in Dragon:
> 
> Writers who actually recognize that there is a popular 3rd party market out there. The only reference to 3rd party products are in the advertisements that they buy. It's like buying USA Today and seeing no mention of the Middle East. I think the best "issue" you guys did was the special d20 issue where you actually reviewed AEG's modules, and talked candidly about the license and other publishers. That was great! More reviews of 3rd party products, more discussions of 3rd party products. Use 3rd party OGC - that's what it's there for.
> 
> Echoed on here a lot already - more plot hooks, campaign ideas, world-building rules, etc. DM's read Dragon more than players do, I suspect.
> 
> Lastly, - invite feedback! I let my subscription expire several months ago. Before that, the only "articles" I ever read were Gygax's column, the letters to the editor, and maybe the occasional article by Monte or Skip if I saw something that caught my eye. That was pretty much it. On feedback, I'd like to see a regular column where readers can contribute. The thing I love about ENworld is that I can ask people about their campaign settings, their interesting games, or neat ideas that they've used. I love this place for the ideas. I don't get that from Dragon. Feature a special segment where people can send in their failed Campaign setting submission. I suspect many of them are really, really cool, even though they didn't win. Eberron isn't everyone's cup of joe. Most people I know don't follow the "corporate line" when it comes to their campaign setting. Even people who run FR or Eberron are probably using at least 1 or 2 3rd party products, or homebrew modifications. The game I'm currently playing in is set in Harn, using the d20 rules, for example.



Damn. Yeah, that too, what he said. (_points to Die Kluge_) 

Well spoken. Err, typed.

Please, no more Minitures junk.  I didn't buy the game and I'm not going to.  It's wasted paper in a magazine that is already of limited use to me.

Let me also echo the request for Dragon CD-ROMs of the issues from where the previous CD-ROM set left off. (Dungeon really, _really_ needs the CD-ROM treatment, too, by the way!)


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## Wombat

Well, I used to subscribe (got myself a 3 year subscription after I was given the 3e books), but overall I found myself reading the comics and little else.

What problems did I have?  

Well, there was very little of interest for me.  

I do not play any of the core campaigns, so any articles related to that had no interest for me.  I tend to run lower level campaigns and many of the additions felt more appropriate for higher levels.  Most of the monsters felt incredibly inappropriate for my campaigns and of little general interest for the types of games I fun.  I loath planar adventuring and found far too much material on that for my tastes.  The fiction ran from mediocre to bad.  And the pushing of Chainmail and other points of increased miniature-izing of D&D was anathema to my needs or desires.

I liked the cartoons at least...


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## fredramsey

Actually, if WOTC wants to come out with THE killer magazine, they should just do one called d20 Fantasy (excuse me if there is one already).

All d20 Fantasy publishers would be invited to advertise, and provide material. Now, granted, the odds are better for Bastion Press or Necromancer or someone to get in rather than a small PDF shop, but if the magazine covered all the stuff being released, gamers would snap that bad boy up!

I think this could work. Hell, I'd buy it!


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## duclair

I've never subscribed to Dragon, mostly because the price difference for Canadian subscriptions has always been high enough that it made more sense for me to just buy it off the rack. Lately, though, I confess that I've been buying less issues that way, and I think there are two factors behind this.

First, I worry that Dragon is leaning a little too much towards being a WotC product-delivery shill. Yes, I know that Wizards pays advertising dollar for their supplements, but look at the editorial in any recent issue.  'Previews, Notes, Etc.' is 80% WotC content that I can get in any number of other places (primarily ENWorld). 'Under Command' seems a thinly disguised photo-press release for whatever new D&D Miniatures expansion pack is being unleashed on the world. 'Coup de Grace' is insider stuff that's interesting but would have worked just as well as an article on the Wizards web site. 'Sage Advice' is (still) three pages wasted on information that I'll get in the next FAQ update anyway. And features seem more and more content-slanted towards whatever new product WotC is selling (read: Eberron) at the expense of existing product that more people are probably actually playing (read: Greyhawk and the Realms).

Personally, I like Eberron, but here's a rhetorical question — if the setting had tanked completely (slagged by the reviewers, ignored by the players, MIA in the marketplace), would Dragon have had the free ability to choose to ignore it? Or on some level, does the question of what setting-support material goes into the mag depend less on the sense of who's going to want to read it than it does on royal assent from Renton?

(Having said that, the recent redesign seems to lend itself towards more setting-neutral material, but that ties to the following point.)

Second, for the past several years (long before Mr. Mona's tenure), the editorial philosophy of Dragon seems to have become built around the idea of the magazine being all things for all people. And while this is great in a warm-and-fuzzy egalitarian sense, it's important to remember that a common denominator always becomes a lowest common denominator in the end. Do a poll on these boards asking members to list the beverages they drink most regularly, and water will likely be the only response they all share. (Mountain Dew doesn't make the cut in Canada; no caffeine up here.) Likewise, when articles are reworked to make them as generic as possible, they inevitably get less interesting, I think. Consider the Dark Sun controversy from earlier this year, where the idea seems to have been to willingly sacrifice flavor (the original context and philosophy of the setting) in favor of homogeneity (the idea that a player who really likes his paladin shouldn't be forced to think about what a world without paladins might look like).

A writer I know had a piece in Dragon last year that was also rewritten fairly extensively in order to make it more generic, and while he wasn't displeased with the result, his words to me at the time were 'D&D is a game built around imagination, but Dragon seems to want to assume that its audience has no imagination.'

If you look for homogenous, it's almost inevitable that you find tedious. The Dragon of the past few years seems to want to inspire every reader to be able to say 'Yeah, I can use that in my game.' When I first started reading it back in the 1980s, Dragon seemed to want to inspire every reader to be able to say 'Wow, I didn't know I could use that in my game.'

More 'Wow', less 'Yeah' is what I'd need to get me back on board.


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## The Lost Muse

I don't subscribe to Dragon or Dungeon; however, the reason for this is that I cannot go to a storre and buy either magazine.  I would be much more likely to subscribe to Dungeon because I mostly DM, but the features I like in magazines include:

1) Comics - Especially a satire about gaming would be hilarious!  Get Order of the Stick!!!

2) Articles on different aspects of the game that are interesting to read, and not dry.  A written debate with multiple viewpoints would also be interesting.

3) Reviews of d20 products, and not just WotC stuff.

4) A balance between flavor and crunch.  Things that are modular and can be dropped into my campaign.

Cheers,
Tim


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## DM_Jeff

*Dragon*

>>1. Why don't you buy the magazine?

First, thanks for even asking, Erik!

I currently subscribe. It's important to point out why, however. 

* Collecting. I started subscribing with issue #78. I collected back issues into the teens. I never let my subscription run out because I always found it _just _ useful enough. Wow, I guess I'm your favorite type of customer.

* For the past 7 years my wife has been an avid contributor to Dragon. Apart from that we've heavily questioned renewing our subscription each year because our eyes pass over stuff too typical, dull, or not of interest to our game right now. And now, her recent articles (for DM's) have moved to Dungeon, which we love to no end and have no beef with whatsoever! 

We've ID'd why we don't read it or use it as much anymore:

>>2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?

We never read the fiction. Fiction schmiction, gotta go.

Nodwick is a good comic, and the only one that we really enjoy.

Dragon needs to be more modular, or it needs a comphrehensive, constantly updated index of stuff. Modular in that I skim Dragon every month. I need stuff for use in my game right now. By the end of the week, not to mention the end of the month, that issue is out of my head and on the shelf. It would stay at my table for the month and see much more use if there were:

1) Monster article every issue with three beasties. One with stats, fluff, and ecology all rolled into one. And of three different CR's, low, medium and high. How useful would it be to read a cool, short description of an adventuring party with the creature, the creature's stats for the DM, and then a short treatment of the ecology of the creature. I'm sure to use at least ONE of the monsters at CR 3, 9 or 16 (for example) in my campaign that very month. Even if just as a random encounter. How is this useful to players too? Make notes on how they can be replaced in a summon monster spell or used as an ally.

2) Magic items. Not 50, about 5 or 6. With a price guide to quickly tell which one I can use in my campaign right now. 1 or 2 worth less than 2,000 gp, 1 or 2 worth 3-5,000 and a couple worth 10,000 or more. With good histories/stories behind them to make them interesting to read or inspire adventure hooks. I can then immediately realise what level of item I can use at my table that very month and make use of the article. They're not just for the DM. If a player wants his PC to create one, there's the idea and numbers to use.

3) NPC's. Just like monsters. Three, at low, medium and high level. Friends and villains alike. With a little intro story, crunch stats, then fluff on its purpose, profession, role, whatever, in a game.

In each of the cases above, note hardly any space would be wasted giving a little sentence such as "In Greyhawk..." "In the Realms..." "In Eberron..." to satisfy all fans or ignore as they please. 

4) "PC Projects". Like "How can I start a guild in the game." "How can I start a mercenary company." "How can I start and run a tavern." "How can my PC rebuild a damaged reputation." If the magazine is really supposedly aimed at players give them something to read based on stuff many of them want to do in a game but don't know how to approach. A complete article, not a bunch of half-baked ideas, but a beginning to end piece.

5) Fun stuff. Not fun-ny, just fun. Articles by known names on topics typical to D&D players. Opinion-based articles with fun and lively discussion ideas. That infamous whacky article by Sean K. Reynolds on his site lambasting everyone for saying "enchant a magic item" is incorrect in 3.0 terms was hilarious and just what I'm talking about. Over-the-top, opinionated, get-your blood flowing topics covered with wit, humor and purpose.

6) Toys. A while back either Dungeon or Dragon would each have poster-sized maps with grids for miniatures use. The one for town streets STILL see use at my table to this day, more locations as such would be excellent.

Speaking of minitaures, we use them constantly. My wife paints and collects lead and I collect and adore the WotC plastic minis. But we use them in our RPG only, never the skirmish game. So while I would enjoy articles on their use, I would for the RPG only.

In general, I like the magazing, but can't use much of it at any given time. And by the time I think I can use an article in question it is lost among hundreds backlogged on my shelf with no easy way to find them. 

Feats, Classes, Prestige Classes, these hardly come up needing each week, they go in and out of my head just as quickly. Monsters, magic items, equipment, NPC's: these are useful to players and DMs right away. And that's what I need out of my Dragon, stuff I can read which is fun and entertaining and applicable to my game right now, not in a month or a year.

Last but not least, folks have been saying the biggest competitor for Dragon's space is the internet nowadays, and while I somewhat agree, I must point out that many good immediate-use articles show up in one form or another on the WotC website, of all places.

But, for the record, the recent changes have been for the better and have shown good work.

-DM Jeff


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## francisca

I'm a subscriber, 3 issues left, and I am going to let it lapse.  Here is why:

1) Miniature Game.  I don't play it.  No interest here.  I understand there is a market for Dragon to support with mini coverage, but I'm just not part of that crowd.
2) I don't want fiction in a gaming mag.
3) I already think there is enough Prestige Classes, races, spells, etc..  I just really don't need any more.
4) I'm really put off by the min/max articles.  I don't care about the latest kewl build.
5) Ebberon.  Don't play it.  I'm sure there are lots of people out there who do, but again, for me, there is no point.


And now for the biggest reason:  Except for the cover art on my last issue, I cannot tell you anything about it.  Nothing.  Not a single thing stuck in my head as useful or interesting, and I read it cover to cover.  On the flipside, I can rememember several issues from the early 80s as if I read them this morning at breakfast.

Now, I did subscribe to Dungeon.  The changes you have made there are great, Erik!  I'll monitor Dragon for a couple of months, and if it morphs into something interesting, I'll probably re-sub.


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## vrykyl

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?
> 
> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?




Erik,

I'll take a stab at answering the question, then give you an idea of where I'm coming from.

1. Right now DRAGON focuses on bringing new D&D material every month, and frankly I've got more than enough on my own game shelf. (Also, I'm one Google away from almost anything I would need.) After a few hundred prestige classes, feats, spells, magic items, there's just more than any one gamer could possibly use--or at least THIS gamer. None of the other articles are a big enough draw to make me igore the fact that most of the magazine has "crunchy" material that I don't need.

2. Give me material I CAN'T easily get from the web. Entertain me.

I was a subscriber to DRAGON for many years, during the Roger Moore years and after. The magazine was the best place to get certain kinds of news and insight. The problem is that we live in a different era now, and every game designer I respect has his own website or blog.

It's a formula hard to define, but if DRAGON were to make me smile like it did in the old days, I'd have a paid subscription again in a heartbeat. I guess I'd like the magazine to be "fun" again.

This is definitely not a slam at the current incarnation of DRAGON. I think the Paizo team does a great job in making the best DRAGON with its current focus. Unfortunately the focus just doesn't do much for me anymore.

Jamie Chambers


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## Rumplestiltskin

I've been subscribed to Dragon for many many years.  I had a bit of a bad feeling when there were problems a few years ago and I ended up missing out on a good few months worth of deliveries.  After that, I never resubscribed but I do still get the magazine from the store.

However, I find that I spend less time reading each issue than I used to.  As said by other posts in this thread.... its just too "crunchy" lately.  I just skip over the articles which cover prestige classes and stats, stats, stats.   I prefer articles which add flavor to the game.  How about creative articles, like bardic ballads etc?   I'm a big Realms fan and was very disappointed to see that the Elminster articles had ended.  I'd like to see more of the Realms covered in Dragon.  All active campaigns should be given at least an article in the publication.  

What I do like, is the coverage of new releases and also the catalog which was included in a recent issue   

Also, there is very little coverage of novels.  Considering that WotC have a huge Forgotten Realms, Eberron and Dragonlance novel line, they should get a lot of preview space and articles based on these novels.

Bring back campaign specific columns, cut down on the crunch and provide more flavor and it will be perfect.


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## jasper

Erick you can see my other comments on Wizards board.

Fiction. I don’t mind fiction as long it stays under 4 pages and prefer 2 since it was generally only suitable for bathroom reading
.
Rehashing I mentioned this over at wizards but others have said clearer. Except for new worlds most articles are rehashed for years ago. While this is not a bad thing always (and great for new players), but for us old farts it was not new when we went to second edition.

I agree with Auld Grump about OFFICIAL (instead divine music here) standard goes way back. How about the only official thing in the Dragon be Saga advice (and make sure you cover yourself) and nothing else. The Complete Elf book was one reason I create a house rule where the person had to buy me the book. Now as old fart it is core or the door as I am no longer addicted to D&D or other role playing games.

The backgrounds please keep with clearer backgrounds. Even my wife’s high brow magazines didn’t use as much ink as you use to. Some times it took me a few days to read an article because of bad contrast. (Great picture wish the words weren’t in the way). A good middle road approach would be either a half or full paper in the fancy background then back to normal after 
that. 

Include a small section (10%) on other role playing games. some the gama world and other articles back in day did get us to one shot a few games.


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## The Shaman

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?



*The death of *_Polyhedron_*:* I would often buy _Dragon_ at the same time that I bought _Dungeon/Polyhedron_, otherwise I had no reason to walk past the newsrack in the gaming store. Even if it was the same issue of _Dungeon/Polyhedron_ on the rack, I'd usually grab a new _Dragon_ if it was there. Now I have no reason to even look at the covers.

Nuking _Polyhedron_ was unconscionable to me. Bad call. Very bad call.

*See the movie? No, I'll wait for the book:* When so much of what gets published in _Dragon_ will end up in a WotC supplement or accessory somewhere down the line, there's very little incentive to pay for something twice.

It's even more of a disincentive to buy _Dragon_ when I pass on so many WotC books as it is, thanks to...

*Rule overload:* Every new feat, every new PrC, every new mechanic is just another rule added to the game. The longer I play d20 3._x_, the more I find myself stripping the game down to basics: core rules, a couple of core classes from the _Complete_... books - that's all I really need anymore.

About the only thing that I would like to see more of are spells - it always stretches my credulity that a world in which magic has been in existence for thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of years has so few spells, relatively speaking. I can usually cover for this in my world-creation background, but still, more magic certainly makes sense. However, I would still be reluctant to use spells published in _Dragon_ as...

*So much of what's in *_Dragon_* is pure crap:* Unbalanced. Unplaytested. Published campaign-specific. Crap.

I recently started pouring through old issues of the magazine, as I'm cleaning out boxes from the garage (to make space for baby stuff that will be going into storage...one of the many joys of parenthood is the accelerated accumulation of "stuff"). I flipped through about thirty or so backissues, and decided to save five. That means that about two issues a year are keepers to me. And generally speaking that works about to about six articles a year.

Because this material often gets recycled as a WotC supplement, you can probably understand why I don't buy many of their books anymore, either.

And while this doesn't pertain to _Dragon_ specifically, I would also like to chirp about...

*Poor customer service:* I purchased three or four _Dungeon/Polyhedron_ backissues last month, and Paizo sent me unsaleable defectives - the covers were on wrong, pages were out of order, and so on. A warning that backissues paid for at well over the cover price may be newsstand rejects would have been appreciated.


			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?



I've wracked my brain and I can't think of any.

For me, the bottom line is that I picked up _Dragon_ ultimately to support the publication of _Polyhedron_. With _Polyhedron_ gone, I have no use for _Dragon_, or _Dungeon_ either for that matter.


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## theprofessor

*Too Much Crunch!!*

First, I DO subscribe to Dragon (and Dungeon) and really like the new formats.  However, to echo innumerable prior posts, Dungeon is the more useful of the two.  

The problem I have with Dragon, again to echo innumerable prior posts, is too much crunch.  I cannot possibly use 10 billion prestige classes, my players have zero interest in learning a gazillion new spells.  The official WotC products provide more than enough new crunch to surprise my players.  

What I do like is the flavour stuff.  I passed issue 326 around a group of new players and they loved the Dungeon Delving Guide.  That issue also had great articles on sewers and labyrinths.  325's War Magic article was good too.

I'd like to see more articles directed at helping players and dms do a better job (like the dungeon delving piece), more on monster tactics, more details on settings (places, people, organizations), rule clarifications and expansions (like WotC's Rules of the Game articles), and npcs (developing and developed).

That said, the new formats are great - keep up the good work!


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## Jdvn1

What's been repeated and needs to be emphasized, I think:

No stories.  While neat, I'm not looking for a fantasy version of Analog.

More creativity.  New uses for spells, feats, et cetera.

Or even monsters.  There's a thread on here about making Goblins scarier.  I've heard of a scenario where Kobolds overran a Wizard's tower and drank all of his potions.  Kobolds with Bear's Endurance is a neat twist.  Or breath weapons.  New twists on old monsters are welcome.

And, yeah, support Psionics!  A little crunch, a little fluff.  And maybe even Epic stuff.

Also:

I really liked ... what was it called from Dungeon 100?  Friends and Foes?  I saw that Dire Lion Monk 12 and was like, "... Whoa, that's a really cool idea."  I want stuff like that, stuff that makes me go, "Wow, I never thought of that before."

Some where on the Wizards site, they have Wild Life articles which gives a twist on the animal companion idea.  That's creative.  It also gives an option for multiclassed Druids who want a stronger animal following them around.  Maybe a fighter article that specializes with a lesser used weapon like the Whip would be nice?  Or a Wizard article that focuses on Abjuration?  Or Divination?  Or an article detailing the flexibility of Paladins?  Assuming Dragon is supposed to be for players, give some character ideas.  Anyone can roll up a Bard, but a lot of people think it's too weak.  How about a neat Bard variant with sneak attack or evasion?  Or tips on making a Bluff-based character?  How about some feats that make my Dwarven Fighter into an Axe Specialist?

And to highlight what someone said before: One quality PrC with color is worth tons more than a bunch of weaker, generic PrC's.  I'm not going to say 'worth its weight in gold' that's not saying much.  It's paper.

As far as campaign setting support, I'd actually go for generic stuff that can be added to any campaign setting.  Maybe something like a "How do adapt to FR" bit tagged to the end.

And I like Gamers-taking-about-gaming articles, like the "Why 1st level character suck" article recently.

When I stop by my gaming store, I pick up the latest Dungeon and the latest Dragon and flip through it.  If there's something I like in it, I buy it.  My Dungeons outnumber my Dragons roughly 4-1.


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## Charles Dunwoody

I just caught up on the posting so far. Except for wanting to see more Eberron not less I agree with much that has been said.

One thing I would like to see is a group of four or five characters with a short history. Statted once as PCs and once as NPCs. And the right levels to be used in one of that month's Dungeon adventures.

The days of buying a module, handing out the pregenerated PCs, and playing are mostly gone. If Dragon had stats for a group of PCs that matched up with an adventure in Dungeon, that would be great. And if the stats also included NPCs stats, then home brewers could use the roleplaying and statted rules as well.


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## Stockdale

Erik:

I am not now nor have ever been a subscriber to Dragon (although I just renewed my subscription to Dungeon). I do however pick up the occasional copy on the newstand. That said, I have not picked up a copy since its reformat. 

My purchases are driven by the theme of the issue. I picked up the Gladitors issue, the Knights issue, the Campaign Classics issue and the Pirates-Ninjas-Dinosaurs issue. The issues I have picked up are well used. What I like about the issues I picked up were the flavor of the articles, the new feats, new spells, and new monsters. I don't like the PrCs (Never used one and never been asked to allow one regardless of its source). My purchase decisions were driven by the topic as opposed to anything else. I don't subscribe because more often than not the topics just don't appeal to me. Additioanlly, one article on any topic that may appeal to me is not enough for me to open my wallet. A whole issue on one (or three) appealling theme(s) is.

I am going to have to chime in with the masses here and say: DUMP THE FICTION. I have not read nor plan to read any of it. If it had some game-related aspect to it, then maybe. but as it stands - I don't read it.

I do love Dungeon. Its a great value to me, and the crunchy bits that are found within its pages get used more frequently than those in the Dragon issues have. Keep up the good work with Dungeon, but drop Downer and Wheaton. Yuk!

Stockdale


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## rowport

wilder_jw said:
			
		

> This is a great point.  There would be few more useful pages in _Dragon_ every year than an update to a comprehensive index.  I'd be willing to bet that plenty of volunteers could be found for the hard work of compiling the initial index.



I agree with Jeff.  I love Dragon (and Dungeon), but do find it *very* hard to keep track of where the cool race, class, etc. was a few months after reading it.  I use some in-game (Wererat class and Exoticist Fighter variant) and still have a tough time remembering!  An index on the paizo website would be wonderful, maybe just starting with the last year, and eventually covering all of the 3E issues.  If a fan-based effort, I would volunteer to help create it for paizo to host.


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## Emiricol

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I'm about half-way through a much needed vacation, so of course I'm sitting here thinking about work.
> 
> I know many of you _do_ buy Dragon regularly, and for that I send you a hearty holdiay cheer and a simple statement: thanks.
> 
> But I also know that many of you don't buy Dragon, and I'd like to know why. Over my 20+ years as a D&D player, I've had "on" periods and "off" periods with the magazine, so I know what sorts of things went into my personal decision not to buy Dragon, but I'd like to know yours.
> 
> If I can make some changes to the magazine to make it a more attractive purchase, there's a chance we all go away happy.
> 
> So, if you're _not_ a regular customer of Dragon magazine (let's say you buy fewer than three issues annually), please take a minute or two to answer the following questions.
> 
> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?
> 
> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?
> 
> I very much appreciate your time and attention.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Erik Mona
> Editor-in-Chief
> Dragon Magazine (and Dungeon too!)
> Still on vacation, still working




 1) I decided not to renew my subscription because I wasn't using any of the material.  From the editorial notes I understand the decision making process that went into the decisions, but that didn't make it any more useful to me.  Having a large segment of the magazine devoted to advertorials in the form of half-complete short stories was a big turn-off.  Too much stuff was setting specific.  These are the reasons.

  2) Stop making it a vehicle to market new WotC products.  If I played in Eberron, half a magazine full of Eberron-specific information is great.  Since I don't, it made the magazine worth half as much.   Exaggerating the percentage, but still.  Also, stop wasting 10 pages on "fiction" that is really just a teaser to go buy some book.  That trashed the value in my opinion.  Make that stuff a web enhancement or something, or an extra segment - don't eat into the magazine I pay for with that stuff.

  My opinions, mind you.


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## GuardianLurker

*Why I'm not, and what it would take to get me back*

I'll try to give a slightly different take on a lot of stuff that's already been said, many many times.

I've been gaming since '81, and my first Dragon was #72 (which still makes me laugh after all these years). I was an avid reader/subscriber up to #140. I still have the old collection.

I stopped subscribing for a number of reasons. One was I just had too many issues to find what I wanted (though #112 helped lots). But the bigger reason was a conscious attempt on my part to avoid new toy syndrome. Dragon back then (and still) produces a lot of really cool, wanna-use-it-now, crunch. Sometimes it was because the crunch was obviously just too overpowered (the Cavalier from #72). Other times because it was just tool cool ("A rock that acts like a calculator - both punnish and useful.") I didn't have my filters built, and I couldn't stay afloat. And when I finally developed the filters, towards the end of my subscription run, 80-90% of the new cool stuff was being filtered out.

Honestly, I think this is what the "too much crunch" crowd is complaining about. New crunch is cool - is just that Dragon produces so much of it that sifting through the sand to get the nuggets is hardly worth it.

I didn't touch Dragon again until just after 3e - when I picked up the issue with "How to Build a Monster". It was obvious that Dragon hadn't changed, content-wise, since I let my subscription lapse. And the article that got me to buy the magazine was essentially worthless to me, as it didn't say substantially more than what was already in the Monster Manual. I really haven't touched the magazine since.

What would it take to get me back? More than you are probably willing to (or even can) do; but here it goes...

1) Reduce the publishing interval. I game twice monthly, and there's going to be at least a 3-5 session delay before I can use any new material. If the magazine is monthly, I'm going to be so far behind the curve that subscribing is pointless. I'd suggest bi-monthly (alternating with Dungeon), or even quarterly. That sounds bad, but I'd also expect you to increase the page count to cover all the in-depth articles I want. Assuming a 100-page magazine/month (and I have no idea if that's accurate), I'd rather have 150 pages I *will* use than 200 pages that will get recycled.

2) In-depth - and I *mean* in-depth - articles on what ever aspect things are exploring. 5 pages of "take the monster's HD, divide by 3, and guess at the adjustment" just doesn't cut it. One of the things Dragon is (or should be) is a learning/teaching tool. And newbies to a subject need a different level of advice than experienced veterans. In the case of "fluff" articles, that would be general broad-strokes that reveal sound principles. In the case of "crunch" articles, that would be specific cookbook-style instructions.

3) Advanced theory articles - articles not just about new monsters, feats, et cetera, but articles that expose exactly why this or that was chosen, or what the affects of a proposed rule change would be. Articles that advance the state-of-the-game-art. Unearthed Arcana and Arcana Unearthed would be example material here. Again, in-depth, not just a few pages.

4) Player/GM Aid - articles that help me be a better player/GM. Not just with guidelines, but with concrete examples. As an example, there's a thread (very politics-heavy) over on RPG.net (http://www.rpg.net/forums/phorum/pf/read.php?f=97&i=1214&t=1198) that has a fairly decent scenario description for building a theme-based adventure. It's crude and simplified, but more detailed than most theme-is-good pieces I've read. Then there's the whole G/N/S argument that I sure we're all tired of; but how many newbies are even aware of it?

5) Other system/OGL content - WotC doesn't own Dragon anymore, so it shouldn't be the house-organ that it started as either.

In short, I'd change the focus from trying to satisfy the *current* crop of gamers to building the *next* crop of game designers. I believe you'll find it will solve the other problem as well.

Oh, and lest I forget :
6) Advertise - fantasy fiction magazines, gaming websites, webcomics, anywhere. Get Dragon and Dungeon back into the bookstores, not just the hobbystores.


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## Black Spiral Dancer

Like a few that have replied to this thread, I *am* a subscriber. Like the few subscribers who have replied, I have a few beefs with the Dragon magazine. On the re-tooling of the magazine, I'm luke warm. There are a few things I like, and a few others that I find uninteresting.

1) Lose the fiction. I never read it anyway.
2) I don't need to know about movies in a magazine about role-playing games.
3) The First Watch, Player Initiative and Under Command article don't really do anything for the magazine.
4) Class Acts. Good idea, poor in execution. Perhaps you can narrow it down to four arch-types, like WotC did for their "Complete" Series. That would give you two pages for each focus (warrior, divine, arcane, and adventurer) and three pages for a new 20 level class. With more space, you can get a little more depth on a subject.
4) Crunch. I think it's a great idea to include a little bit of everything, but I feel that the magazine would do well to give them all a common theme. Why not put similar-themed spells, feats, and magic items all in the same issue? If a DM can use one, he could find a use for all of them without having to look through 10 issues.
5) There should be more then just crunch... there should be tips on how to utilize these bits and pieces to either enhance current gaming worlds or create unique gaming worlds. Give us ideas on how to utilize different mechanics to create new feats, prestige classes, races and spells. Give us alternate rules and the tools to we need to flesh out our own ideas!
6) Give us a corner to locate players and DMs in our area. There is a vast number of people out there who want to play, but don't know where to begin in finding a group.

While Dungeon is a DM's one stop shop for adventures and tips, Dragon should be the DM's one stop shop for world building. Lets face it; DMs subscribe to these magazines, not players.


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## fafhrd

I really hate to say it but it seems like Paizo robbed Peter to pay Paul, and now Peter is starving.  Dungeon has the bulk of material I want from a periodical.  I _really_ like Dungeon now, and I feel bad that making it a better magazine has hurt its producers.  

I don't know what would make me buy Dragon but it has to be very different.  I agree with the bulk of the comments here.  1001 pieces of crunch scattered across dozens of magazines, lacking an index, with spotty coverage doesn't appeal.  Add in uneven mechanics and I just can't find a reason to buy.  3rd party entities do Dragon better than Dragon does.  If I want a nugget of material on a particular subject, I look to the Phil Reeds.  If I want a new setting, I can choose from dozens of HC sourcebooks that have really been thought out and labored over.  The appeal of not carrying around easily lost or damaged magazines seems small but can't be understated IMO.  

Adding more online support and a really good index is a good start but its not enough on its own.  I doubt your model will allow for PDF publishing but it would be a huge boon to be able to sort through the irrelevant chaff and collate the pieces I want to use into something approaching portable. 

I want to give you my dollars.  I really do.  I like supporting the game.  I'm an easy sell, but I just can't justify it as is.  I have faith though.  You've done wonders with Dungeon and I'm going to cross my fingers and hope you suprise us with another essential tool.


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## der_kluge

I had an idea this morning thinking some more on this topic, and Kravell had a similar idea, it sounds like.

If Dungeon is supposed to be *the* place to get modules, what is Dragon supposed to be?  

Fill in the blank: 
Dungeon is a repository of modules.
Dragon is a repository of ________.

I think it's a difficult thing to do currently.  

The other thought I had, along my earlier comments has to do with player-driven feedback.  

Erik - invite the readers to send you 1 page 12 pt. font typed letters describing their homebrew setting.  Take them, fix grammatical/typing mistakes, and then publish them.  Devote the _entire_ magazine to it.

Not only will I buy it, but I probably won't be able to put it down.  I'll read it from cover to cover.  It will be the first, and only issue I will have ever read cover to cover.

The best part is that you don't even have to pay for the content.  People will willingly tell you about their homebrew setting.  And you know what, I'm willing to pay to be able to read about those settings.  Because, I just love reading that kind of stuff.

Next issue, devote it to campaigns.  I want to know who the villains are, and what the plot was, and any interesting turns of events.  I'll pay for, and read that issue cover to cover as well.  Two or three issues like that, and I'll probably re-subscribe.

Alternatively, just have everyone at WoTC write up a couple of pages on what the game means to them, or a memorable session they ran, or a good D&D related story they have to share.  I'd read that entire issue as well.

Be sure to include letters to the editor, and Gygax's column, and Will Wheatons (even though I've never read it, I'm sure it's good).  And leave the comics in the back.  Some don't like them, but they don't really take up much space.  And I like them.


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## IronGolem

*Why I don't buy Dragon*

I used to buy Dragon when I first started playing AD&D back in the early 80's, mainly because it was the only magazine that I knew about with D&D content, and it seemed fairly Greyhawkcentric (also the main campaign around at the time).  I stopped picking it up once FR came onto the scene, because the content seemed to be more FR-oriented.

Then, when 3rd Ed. came around, I picked it up again for a year or two, to help me get a feel for the breadth of the new edition, and because I'd heard Greyhawk was the default world of the new edition, AND especially for the Living Greyhawk journal.  After a while, it seemed that each issue focussed on WotC's latest release book, and since I wasn't going to purchase every new product (I like just the core books, and maybe a few additional books on topics of interest (planes, psionics, etc.)), these issues had less appeal to me.  Plus, the Living Greyhawk journal had been moved to Dungeon.  So, I dropped Dragon and picked up Dungeon.  Then, news came out that Dungeon would be the magazine for DM's, and Dragon for players.  It made sense just to stick to Dungeon, since I mainly DM.

Occasionally, if I pass by a Dragon magazine on the stand at the local hobby store that seems to focus on something I am interested in, I'll pick it up, but I have no interest in a subscription.  Mainly, I am just not interested in many of the monthly foci of the magazine, so it makes no sense to buy all of those issues, when only one or two a year are of interest.


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## philreed

fafhrd said:
			
		

> 3rd party entities do Dragon better than Dragon does.  If I want a nugget of material on a particular subject, I look to the Phil Reeds.




Thanks! One of the things I always keep in mind when writing short PDFs are old issues of Dragon. I just wish more people understood the balance of fluff/crunch that went into releases from Ronin Arts (especially our "A Dozens . . . " series).


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## Andre

Like others, I currently subscribe but I decided a year ago not to renew. Doubt I'll change my mind, but we'll see. Reasons:

1. Value. Dragon is expensive. I just don't use much of the material in Dragon. I don't remember the last time I used anything from an issue *as a player*. 

In fact, (going off on a tangent here) I think the idea that Dragon should be a "players" magazine is unworkable. First, most gamers are not playing in more than one or two campaigns at a time. Assuming we're not creating new characters every session, there's just no way for even a fraction of the material in Dragon to see use in any particular player's game. Second, it doesn't matter how much a player likes something in the magazine - it has to fit the GM's campaign. That means the GM will have to vette the material. Trying to shoehorn Dragon into the concept of a "players" magazine may blind you to the opportunities to provide material for people who spend the most (time and money) on gaming: GM's.

2. Related to 1. above: too many new rules, classes, etc. Instead, as others have suggested, solicit articles that make the most of the existing rules, feats, spells, items, etc. Not every idea needs a prestige class. Not every idea needs new feats. I want the ideas, with only the minimum of crunch needed and no more. I'm overloaded with crunch, but never have enough good ideas.

3. It's boring. In a recent issue, the editor responded to reader letters concerning some of the recent changes. One stuck in my head, because it summed up this problem. He said that Bazaar of the Bizarre would be called Magic Shop because Magic Shop "is self explanatory". Excuse me? Give your readers credit for some intelligence. This shows just how much flavor has been (apparently deliberately) taken out of the magazine. Rules are boring - flavor is fun. Too often, Dragon reads like a software manual, not a magazine.

In the same issue, we learned that the old "monster hunter" Ecology articles would not be used. Now they would be very crunchy because that would "give more useful information" and "inspire plots and roleplaying". I can't speak for others, but rules make for bland, boring articles that don't inspire a fraction of the plots and roleplaying the old-style articles did. And even the ones I didn't use in a game were enjoyable to read. 

4. My understanding is that WOTC owns the magazines, Paizo has a license to publish them, but WOTC has final authority on what goes in them. That being the case, I cut you guys a lot of slack. Even so, there have been too many issues that were a little too obviously designed as advertising for WOTC. As long as most of the material is useful, I can live with it - but see my other points to see why it's not (at least, not enough of it is).

Suggestions:

1. No fiction. Wasted space. Let's put it this way: if a buyer wants fantasy fiction, they'll welcome it in Dragon, but that's not why they buy the magazine. They can get fantasy fiction in so many other ways. IMO, losing the fiction won't lose you more than half a dozen subscribers, if that many.

2. Instead of focusing on rules crunch with Class Acts, try something more imaginative. How about a sample character of each class, complete with background and personality. Use the sample characters to highlight different builds (the charismatic rogue, the swashbuckling fighter, a jungle barbarian). Make them something I can modify slightly and drop into a campaign, or something that will inspire me with a new character concept.

3. Take a look at some of the smaller pdf's selling at RPGNow, especially Phil Reed's. I purchased a couple and loved them. Why? Because the ideas were so interesting. Crunch is limited to the minimum necessary, but the articles are steeped in flavor. Rather than give us a list of magic items with mechanical descriptions, try to emulate these.

4. You don't have to have an article every single issue for new spells, new prestige classes, new feats, new races, etc. If it's interesting and useful, go right ahead. But, to be honest, too many of the monthly columns read as someone's homework assignment - something that had to be done, not something inspired. Besides, as I've said repeatedly, I don't want you to focus on including crunch for its own sake, but only when it's necessary.

Sorry this is a bit stream-of-consciousness, but I hope it helps. Thanks for asking our opinions!


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## Purple Dragon Knight

*No more Realms...*

I don't buy Dragon anymore for two reasons:

1. poor handling of my subscription that led me to request my money back (I had not received any issues after 6 months of subscription); and

2. there is no more Forgotten Realms content within Dragon (this was the only reason why I still picked it up at the store after I cancelled my subscription).

Things to change so I buy Dragon again:

a. More FR stuff.  Not only a two-page article from Greenwood, but short stories, PrCs, Feats that would be specific to the Realms.

b. Give a chance to new writers.  It seems that now, Dragon is "closed for business" from a writer's standpoint...  it used to be a vehicle for discovering new authors/game designers.  Now it seems that unless you have friends in very high places, you stand no chance.

c. Gimmicks and toys.  Don't be scared to shrink-wrap your babies and include maps, dice, toys, figs, spell templates, etc.  Man! since its reformat, I haven't bought one issue... it's so dull now!


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## ivocaliban

I buy about 3 or 4 issues of Dragon magazine every year. The problem is, the nearest place that offers Dragon is about an hour from my house. Many times I've considered getting a subscription, but two things keep me from it: 

1) I have post office box. A tiny, cramped post office box to be exact. The one time I ordered a subscription to a magazine every issue ended up trashed by the time I received it. 

2) There's generally not enough of interest in each issue to warrant the cover price. Sure, every issue has something I'd like to have, but I won't buy a magazine for a single article unless it takes up some serious space. My favourite issue of Dragon (and one I've used more than most WotC books) is #294 (Deities, Relics, & Vehicles). I've used at least 75% of the material in that issue alone. While I like that Dragon has become more diverse, it's often so diverse that much of it is of little use to me. 

As someone who runs a (heavily-modified) Greyhawk campaign, has no interest in Eberron and only a little interest in Forgotten Realms, both Dragon and Dungeon magazines have become less than ideal as of late. Still, I depend on them for filling in the Greyhawk gaps and offering more generalized D&D information. 

And so, I still buy Dragon magazine, but I'm very selective regarding which issues I pick up. Since Paizo took command I would have to say the issue that most attracted my attention was #315 (Classic Campaigns). Since the recent shift in format I haven't bought any Dragon magazines, however. I look at them every month and often find one or two things I could use, but only one or two. I'll keep looking, however.

Oh, and as a final note, I'm a sucker for inserts. I snapped up the Dragon magazine with the DM's screen and I'll likely be picking up all four issues of Dungeon that contain the Greyhawk maps.


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## Flexor the Mighty!

No fluff, all crunch mostly.   My AD&D game is over, my C&C game will start before the new year.  Since I don't need feats or PRCs what good would dragon be to me?  With such dry mechanical articles or stuff on game worlds I don't use, there is no inspiration to make me want to adapt 3.5 stuff to C&C.  People have brought up the Ecology articles.  Look at some of Greenwood's old articles.  That is how you should write an ecology article.  

Oh Mutants & Masterinds stuff would help.


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## Breakdaddy

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> 1.) Instead of PrCs, have articles explaining how already published feats and classes can combine to form archetypes.
> 
> 2.) Fluff, fluff, and more fluff: For instance, you could do a historical article on Roman Legionaires.  Explain how the fighter class can be fitted to different fighter types.  Combine fluff with the types of equipment and feats that a Roman would have and suddenly, you will have players that are effective with some personality.  You will get more GMs to allow Dragon in game if it shows EXISTING rules and how to work them rather than new, unplaytested, unbalanced rules.
> 
> 3.) Monsters!  Instead of new monsters, have an article about how a monster fights!  Give a 5 round set of monster tactics.  Yes, it would be geared towards GMs, but players would enjoy it too.  That would be VERY useful.
> 
> 4.) Tactical Studies: Have an article about player tactics.  Show them how to use existing rules and crunch in game.  Explain how and when to use a fireball.  Explain what spells, skills, feats would be useful in certain situations.
> 
> 5.) Fluffer-size the rules: Have an article that explains the fluff of a skill, spell, feat or class.  Give players a sense of how to describe the use of their abilities.  Instead of someone saying "I use sleight of hand," have a short skit meant to show a player how to describe sleight of hand in game. "I trip and fall into the wealthy noble, moving lightly to the gold-filled purse by her side."
> 
> 6.) TEACH!  Dragon should be a teaching tool.  It should be aimed at teaching players not just the crunch of the game, but the soul of the game.  Right now, Dragon has no soul and that is in desperate need.  There needs to be something other than crunch that makes people want to read Dragon.




AMEN! Every suggestion you made was 100 percent spot-on afaiac. Add my voice also to those who would see fiction removed  from dragon and follow the above advice and I would subscribe right now! As an aside, I am a current subscriber of Dungeon, and it rules with a firm yet benevolent hand. Thanks for listening, Erik!


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## Andre

Purple Dragon Knight said:
			
		

> b. Give a chance to new writers.  It seems that now, Dragon is "closed for business" from a writer's standpoint...  it used to be a vehicle for discovering new authors/game designers.  Now it seems that unless you have friends in very high places, you stand no chance.




I see things a bit differently. 

I agree that the quality of writing seems to have declined, but I don't blame Dragon or Paizo for this. I've seen first-hand and on these boards that a lot of very intelligent, creative, capable authors are chosing to self-publish (mainly pdf's) rather than submit articles to Dragon. I don't know what Paizo can do about this, but it seems clear to me that there is a lot more competition for good material than there was 10 or 20 years ago.


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## Amaroq

> Fill in the blank:
> Dungeon is a repository of modules.
> Dragon is a repository of ________.




Great point: As a reader, I don't feel a 'mission statement' from Dragon: the content is fairly widely scattered, trying to appeal to too many people, and thus not appealing to any specific individual as much.

If I were to answer the question, I'd say 
'Dragon is a repository of unbalanced feats, spells, and prestige classes'.

Which is particularly sad when I hear people saying 


> I don't need more feats, spells, and especially prestige classes.




I definitely agree!

I was (like many of your responders) a Dragon subscriber back in the two-digit era, and I let my subscription run out because I felt it had gotten to the following crux:
Too many non-core variations which weren't game-balanced and didn't fit into my campaign setting.

Frankly, this is my biggest problem with the glut of d20 source material which the OGL has engendered: there is so much out there that I have a very difficult time determining what's 'level' between different systems, and especially at the crucial 'Before time of purchase' moment.

The biggest challenge I face as a DM is determining what rules to 'allow' and what rules to 'disallow' in my campaign setting.

What do I really want?

1. Reviews of other OGL content, specifically with an eye to a 'quick description' of what new systems they might have added, and then a detailed discussion of how balanced or unbalanced that is relative to some baseline (core?)

2. 'Behind the Curtain' articles, perhaps interviews with publishers and producers, describing how they decided on the mechanics they chose, what alternate mechanics they discarded, and why.

3. 'Power Evaluator' articles, describing ways of evaluating the balance of entirely new material, e.g., something which I could apply both to anything which my creativity can devise, or to a third-party supplement which I am considering. Specifically, I want to hear:
 a.) How to judge the relative power of different feats
 b.) How to find the appropriate level for a spell
 c.) How to evaluate the relative power of a class or prestige class
 d.) How to evaluate the relative power of a magic item
 e.) Which creature CR's are broken and why; a better system for deciding on a CR for your home-brew monster
 f.) Some non-lethal counters for over-optimized characters
 g.) How to judge experience awards for non-combat game sessions.

4. House rules and how to judge/evaluate them

5. Random DM'img aids, such as Creature Collection-style counters, etc.

What I've been hoping for for a while are things like Dr_Spunge's 'character point' system, things which 'open the hood' of this rules system we play by, and let us get our hands greasy tinkering with the engine.

But somehow, I think that's a different magazine. Or even a core rulebook.


----------



## philreed

Andre said:
			
		

> 3. Take a look at some of the smaller pdf's selling at RPGNow, especially Phil Reed's. I purchased a couple and loved them. Why? Because the ideas were so interesting. Crunch is limited to the minimum necessary, but the articles are steeped in flavor. Rather than give us a list of magic items with mechanical descriptions, try to emulate these.




Thanks! Can I ask which ones you purchased?


----------



## Marius Delphus

I've decided to let my subscription lapse, after some soul-searching (I was a regular buyer for a long time before I was a subscriber -- my collection is fairly complete back to issue 80), for one fairly simple reason: I'm sick to death of new classes, new races, new feats, and new spells. And I don't play much at the moment. Two reasons. And the first few issues of the re-format went too far in the "crunch" direction for me and turned me right off. Three reasons. And I have no interest whatsoever in Eberron or the miniatures game. Four reasons. I'll come in again.

 Seriously, though, I don't have an axe to grind over it. Dragon needs to focus on where the customers are, and I respect that without qualification. I even believe the re-format was a very good move for the magazine (though I'm not, of course, privy to sales figures). It's just that I've known for a while that I'm not part of Dragon's core audience* at the moment, and so for me, personally, it's not worth renewing. For now, I'll consider picking up an individual issue or two per year if it looks really engaging.

 Dungeon, on the other hand, is a must have for me right now. The DMing articles are great, and the adventures, even if I can't use them right away, are always top-notch.

 * Players who participate in more than one game session a month, have more than an itty bitty amount of time to spend on the game outside game sessions, and who generate new characters frequently, it would seem; though I could be mistaken.


----------



## philreed

Andre said:
			
		

> I see things a bit differently.
> 
> I agree that the quality of writing seems to have declined, but I don't blame Dragon or Paizo for this. I've seen first-hand and on these boards that a lot of very intelligent, creative, capable authors are chosing to self-publish (mainly pdf's) rather than submit articles to Dragon. I don't know what Paizo can do about this, but it seems clear to me that there is a lot more competition for good material than there was 10 or 20 years ago.




I only recently sent a query to Dragon. Hopefully they'll take me up on some of my article ideas. (And, if they don't, I'll go ahead and put them together as PDFs.)


----------



## AlecAustin

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?
> 
> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?




As many people have noted, Dragon lacks sufficient flavor and interesting writing/ideas in most of its articles for me to want to pick it up.  Instead, it has eight tons of crunch, some of which is useful, but most of which I'll never use.

Let me pick apart issue 324 (one which I actually bought, btw) as an example.  Ignoring the pro-D&D movie screed (ack), First Watch, Under Command, and Silicon Sorcery (none of which I'm impressed by), I genuinely liked:

* The HP Lovecraft article.  Much more interesting than the Knight vs. Samurai one in the previous issue.

* The Quori article.  Why I bought the issue (I'm running an Eberron game).

* The monsters in "Chilled to the Bone", though they were a bit too specific in application (Frostfell-type areas only) to be optimally useful.

* Coup de Grace.  I like these a lot; as Merric Blackman noted, one of the best parts about the new edition and designer's websites are discussions of *why* certain design choices were made.

More or less everything else, I was either indifferent to (Exorcising Equipment, the Sworn Slayer, Ecology of the Grippli) or actively annoyed by.  Some of the Class Acts were decent, but the rest were dragged down by being too short, focused on rules I would never allow (flaws), or just useless (feat and prestige class advice for a sorcerer?).

Based on your comments on the Dungeon Board, Dragon was never supposed to be just "the player's magazine", and so I propose the following changes:

1) More DM advice articles.  Dungeon doesn't seem to have a place for these unless they're written by Monte Cook, and It'd be nice to have a forum for discussions of running large parties, gauging challenge levels (ELs & CRs), and suchlike.

2) More flavor and personality in the writing.  Not every article will be useful to everyone, so there's no excuse for completely leeching a writer's individual voice out of his work in the editing process.

3) More monsters.  (I believe you have this one in hand already.)  More specifically, though, I'd like to see advanced versions of monsters, too, possibly with suggested encounters or minimaps.  This is spilling over into Dungeon territory, but Dungeon is rather popular because of this kind of thing...

4) More capsystem rules options.  Obviously these aren't going to be complete capsystems, like the Epic or Psionics rules, but mini-subsystems that can be integrated into a game without much work would be much cooler and more flexible than a handful of feats or a new prestige class.  OTOH, they'd probably need some testing before publication.

5) More "behind the curtain" material, to help players and DMs get a sense for how the rules work with each other, why certain design choices were made, and what effects certain kinds of house rules or customizations would have on the game.

Obviously, a lot of these would be quite a bit of work, while others might shift the magazine's focus a bit.  But if Dragon is meant to be the magazine for D&D enthusiasts, shouldn't it provide some meat for those enthusiasts to chew on?  After a certain point, loose collections of new feats and spells and prestige classes become even more insubstantial than the 'fluff' they're supposedly supplanting.


----------



## Swiftbrook

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I'm about half-way through a much needed vacation, so of course I'm sitting here thinking about work.




Mine comes in 2 weeks 



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?






			
				shock the monkey said:
			
		

> I like stuff on Greyhawk, but I haven't seen much of it in Dragon of late (..snip..)
> 
> I've been hanging on to Dungeon, though, as that seems to be the place where Greyhawk shines.
> 
> Can't wait for that map.




This is *exactly* why I have subscribed _for the first time_ to Dungeon magazine.  The *only* times in the past few years that I have purchased a Dragon magazine was for Greyhawk spacific material.

Mainly, the material in Dragon is very hit or miss.  Usally, for me, big misses and the hits are rarely bulleyes.  Articles about psionics, monsters, settings I don't use, ... these are the things that are a waste of space ($) for me.

Bascially, the good material in Dragon ends up in a WotC book, usally cleaned up and ballanced.  Also, material that might have gone to Dragon, usally ends up in a WotC book instead these days.  The new races in the "Races of" books should have been in Dragon first, got the bugs out, and then placed in a book if they worked out.

*"100% Official"* I've heard this many times, but it's not really 100%.  You wrote a great pair of articles on Greyhawk Feats (I bought those issues just for these articles), but the feats are not usable in the Living Greyhawk campaign.  An article on Paladin in Living Greyhawk isn't even usable in LG.



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?






			
				Thorin Stoutfoot said:
			
		

> 1. Generic campaign material. The best stuff would be the kind of stuff that elaborates on what's already in the Core books? Seriously, who's Otiluke? Who was Bigby? How evil really was Vecna?
> 
> 5. A regular column titled "Behind the curtain..." that explained the design process behind certain rules and why they work that way.




Honestly, even with these changes I'm not going to subscribe.  I'll cherry pick the ones that look good.

= = = = = = = = = = = 
Conclusion:
Dungeon Masters run thier campaign.  They decide what's in it and what's not.  Dungeon magazine is aimed at DMs and DMs use it's material.  Dragon magazine seems to be aimed at players.  A player may see something in Dragon that they want to use and bring it to their DM.  Then the hastle begins:
 1) The DM may have read it and is OK with it. (Player , DM  )
 2) The DM may have read it and doesn't want it (Player   , DM    )
 3) The DM has not read it, has to take game time to read it (Player :\ , DM :\ )
 4) The DM doesn't want to wast time reading it. (Player , DM :\)

It's just not worth the effort, even if there is an occasional, ballanced, good, usable idea.

-Swiftbrook


----------



## Andre

philreed said:
			
		

> Thanks! Can I ask which ones you purchased?




/Sidetrack on/

A Dozen Unusual Armors and A Dozen Demonic Items. A long-term project I'm working on is modifying RttToEE with new temples and such. Your Demonic Items pdf inspired me to include a temple of demon-worshippers. (The players will hate you...  )

/Sidetrack off/


----------



## philreed

Andre said:
			
		

> /Sidetrack on/
> 
> A Dozen Unusual Armors and A Dozen Demonic Items. A long-term project I'm working on is modifying RttToEE with new temples and such. Your Demonic Items pdf inspired me to include a temple of demon-worshippers. (The players will hate you...  )
> 
> /Sidetrack off/




So you know, I wrote A Dozen Unusual Armors while Michael Hammes wrote A Dozen Demonic Items.

A lot of the "A Dozen" PDFs are really just adventure seeds hidden inside treasure/equipment items. Sometimes we get a bit more blatant (A Dozen Troubling Rumors, for example) but we usually just mix in adventure ideas with the rules and descriptions.

It's good to hear you're getting use out of those two, though. Good luck with terrorizing your players!


----------



## The_Universe

> 4) Class Acts. Good idea, poor in execution. Perhaps you can narrow it down to four arch-types, like WotC did for their "Complete" Series. That would give you two pages for each focus (warrior, divine, arcane, and adventurer) and three pages for a new 20 level class. With more space, you can get a little more depth on a subject.



 Love this idea!


----------



## Andre

philreed said:
			
		

> So you know, I wrote A Dozen Unusual Armors while Michael Hammes wrote A Dozen Demonic Items.




Oops. Oh well, I also have A Dozen Dungeon Hazards. You do realize that Arcane Slime is the single deadliest trap you can spring on a high-level party don't you? Drop a load on the party right before battle starts and none of their arcane items work for 2d6 rounds - but the bad guys are unaffected. TPK in the making...




			
				philreed said:
			
		

> [A lot of the "A Dozen" PDFs are really just adventure seeds hidden inside treasure/equipment items. Sometimes we get a bit more blatant (A Dozen Troubling Rumors, for example) but we usually just mix in adventure ideas with the rules and descriptions.




This is the point I was trying (verbosely) to make for Erik. Dragon should have lots of seeds, with only enough crunch to make them usable.


----------



## johnnype

I don't envy you Erik. I've read only parts of this thread and it's evident that everyone wants something different. Here are my two cents:

- There is a glut of material in the market. Anything one could want is available for purchase. It's difficult, if not impossible, to set any particular supplement apart from everything else that's out there. In this environment the prospective buyer often limits his purchases and a $7 magazine ($3.00 if subscribing) is probably the first item to be dropped. 

- Many clamor for non-setting specific material. They bitch and moan about how much they HATE this setting or that setting. Whatever. How much effort does it take to change the name of a person or place? I'll never understand it. Articles without setting make for dry reading.

- No fiction please. The only piece I've ever enjoyed was the recent GRRM fiction and that only because I'm a GoT fanatic.

- I could say the same of most full-page comics. I'm ok with the occasional strip or single frame but anything else is really just not that good. 

- The recent 12 page add by WotC was terrible. I know they help pay the bills and without advertising you would have to close your doors but that was excessive. I'd feel better if at least they sprinkled the adds throughout the mag instead of bunching it all together at the beginning. Yuk!

- The articles that try to adapt computer games to D&D are the worst. I don't like my pen and paper RPG's mixed in with my computer game RPG's. Half the time not enough background is provided to make the prestige class playable. The articles come off as filler material.

- Speaking of filler material, the one page class specific articles at the back of every issue are worthless. Get rid of them. I’d rather have one well developed article than six throw-aways. 

Some suggestions:

- Since Dragon is all about the PC's how about a series of articles about battle tactics. One month it's all about two-weapon fighting, what feats, classes, prestige classes are best suited for it and why. What weapons are best. Advantages and disadvantages but most importantly how to best take advantage of the benefits in actual combat with illustrations perhaps simulating a typical fight. 
The following month it can be all about archery focusing on the composite long bow (you can do another month on the crossbow or other types of bows). After that you have and article on reach weapons, backstabbing, flanking, spring attacks, blasters (as in wizards who use fireball type spells), etc, etc, etc. Make it at least a two or three page article. Give it enough space to develop the idea to it's fullest. Take a peak at the Character Optimization boards for ideas. Before I frequented the place I had no idea that Clerics made for the best archers. Who would have thought!

I’ll end it there but just remember it’s quality that we’re after not quantity.

Then again, I like the magazine enough to subscribe. I don’t see myself dropping the subscription any time soon.


----------



## Erik Mona

>>>
3. It's boring. In a recent issue, the editor responded to reader letters concerning some of the recent changes. One stuck in my head, because it summed up this problem. He said that Bazaar of the Bizarre would be called Magic Shop because Magic Shop "is self explanatory". Excuse me? Give your readers credit for some intelligence. This shows just how much flavor has been (apparently deliberately) taken out of the magazine. Rules are boring - flavor is fun. Too often, Dragon reads like a software manual, not a magazine.
>>>

I'm doing my best not to reply to this thread, as I want you guys to provide as much "raw" feedback as possible without me or my staff getting in the way. I'll reply to the thread as a whole once everyone has had a chance to contribute.

But I did want to say that reversing this change was the first thing I did as Editor-in-Chief of Dragon. Look for the "Bazaar of the Bizarre" title to return within the next two issues.

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon


----------



## Lost and Damned 2

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> But I also know that many of you don't buy Dragon, and I'd like to know why. Over my 20+ years as a D&D player, I've had "on" periods and "off" periods with the magazine, so I know what sorts of things went into my personal decision not to buy Dragon, but I'd like to know yours....
> 
> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?




Hello Erik, here's why I don't get Dragon....

Firstly, I don't get the Mag since I'm currently Unemployed and can just spare the money each month for Dungeon or Dragon, and I get Dungeon because it's much harder getting good adventures then new Prestige classes/spells/items, etc, etc. 

Much of the later you can get free of websites and can just adapt to fit your game with minimum effort, adventures though are much harder to get free.

Secondly, Getting Dragon here in East London, England, is neigh on impossible! I only have found one place in the whole of East London which does it each month, and that was after I became unemployed and found that out when I went for an interview with them (which I didn't get the job).

Luckly for me me a shop I know does Dunegon every month, since the change to 3rd ed i've only missed issue 104 and that was because they were having a refit.

So Erik, when I Get a job, I'll be able to get both  

PS please change the logo on Dungeon back to how it was before, this new logo is far too bland, I keep having to take my time in finding it amongst all the trash that gets printed, where with the old logo I spotted it straight away!


----------



## tassander

Hi Erik!

First of all, I want to say that I'm really happy that you're in charge of Dragon now. You turned Dungeon into an awesome magazine, if there's someone who can do the same for Dragon, that's you.

Like many others I hate the minis-articles... and I'd be ecstatic if you'd manage to give Dragon more "soul", more fluff and creativity.

Something else I like about Dragon is that whenever I read it I feel connected to the gaming community. I love all those little tidbits about conventions and stuff that's spread all over the magazine. First Watch is wonderful stuff.


----------



## Myconid Sage

Well first off I am a current subscriber, but I'm thinking of dropping next renewal time. However Dungeon Rocks! It is at it's best, imho. 

A lot of people have all ready touched on these points, but I'll give my dislikes anyway.

1. Dragon is boring. Most of the theme articles are just retreads of the same old idea, but with different mechanics. Most of the articles read like a dry high school text book. Dragon was always a fun read back in the 1e/early 2e days. I don't know what happend, but the writing style is just not the same. Now the old Dragon had cool concepts like the Witch or the Deathmaster, not only did they provide new mechanics, they also gave seed ideas for adventuers. Another great series was Greenwood's "Lords of Hell" articles. mmm lots of crunch and fluff! The Dragon articles just don't seem to capture the old flavor.

2. To many frickin' boring generic Prestige Classes. Nobody I game with or known has ever used one of these generic classes since the debut of 3e. Please kill them off.

3.  The Class Acts articles are also pretty lame. You can find plenty of spots on the net to find out how to trick out your PC into  |_|83|2 1337 |)|_||)35. 

4. Feats, a generic article of feats in ever issue, just continues to deluge me with more feats, that nobody else will ever use. 3e/3.5 has way to many feats in rulebooks to make use of in one person's lifetime as it is. Honestly, 90% of all feats that I have seen that people use are in the good old Player's Handbook. 

5. Fiction, I'm kinda on the fence about. I don't read any of the generic fiction, but I do read them if they are FR or any other WOTC world. Dump the generic, keep the WOTC related.

The Postives.

1. Editorial. Yep always read that.
2. Frist Watch. Always informative. 
3. Under Command. Play the minis game, so I like it.
4. A Novel Approach. Just for example, 326's article caused me to go out and by the "The Rage". Plus it always nice to have stats for more NPC's. 
5. Ecology. Mostly pretty good, but lacks the flair of the earlier days.
6. Winning Races. Usualy pretty good, it's sometimes fun to play a monster race that Savage Species didn't cover. Plus it brings back older critters such as the grippli.
7. Sage Advice. You can usualy find a good nugget of info every month.
8. Coup De Grace. Nice to the see the inner workings of Wotc.

The Neutral Stuff.
1. Silicon Sorcery. Don't really use any of the rules, but sometimes it gets me to buy the game.
2. Spellcraft. New spells are allways fun, but don't ever seem to make it into the game.
3. The Magic Shop. As above.

To improve the game.



1. I would take a small region (say a small town or a village) in Eberron, FR and Greyhawk and develop that region, make the NPC's, Shops, small adventure areas, rumors, prestige classes (that make sense), etc. Make it only 2-3 pages every month. Maybe even rotate a fourth articale for the dead worlds; Birthright, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, etc. Think Adventure Path, but only detailing a region.  I would buy Dragon every month just for those alone. 

2. Publish of the above articles in a perfect bound book after the first regions are complete, to make them portable to the gaming table. Also you could do this with spells and magic items too. I wish you could do this for the first Adventure Path from Dungeon as well.

3. Make Dragon less busy artworkwise. I miss the old clean layout of the old Dragon.

4. An online Index.   

Well that's it, Good Luck! I really want to see Dragon stick around!


----------



## Guillaume

I have not read through the whole thread, but a lot of what I feel about Dragon has been summed up.  I have always been a reader of Dungeon Magazine.  It always answered my need in a gaming magazine : it provided for cheap and well written adventures.  Dragon on the other hand, every time I have bought a copy, it has remained unused.  No matter what edition of D&D I play, the content stays mostly unread and untouched.

 You see, I have a tendancy of playing a barebone game.  My games have generally been defined by the core books and a few rules added here and there.  In the recent edition the _ad nauseum_ inclusion of new feats, new skills, new prestige classes and more recently new base classes, just don't interest me.

 The few copies that I have bought usually touched upon very restritive subjects that intrigued me : Orders of Knighthood, the Shanara campaign setting, articles on medieval Paris and Bagdhad, etc.  Mostly those articles were thing I could add to my homebrewed campaign setting.  In other words, they delt more with details, background and information than with new rule sets.

 What would get me to buy Dragon, less of the new rules content and more of the context of the game, background ideas, adaptations work, etc.  Unfortunately, I have a feeling that this would not please your main readership.

 Good luck.

 P.S.: Demographic information if you need it : Male, Ph.D. student, 33 years old, played BD&D, AD&D 2nd and D&D 3.0/3.5.  Been playing since 1980-1981.  Living in Canada.

 P.P.S. : By the way, the prices for Dragon are brutal here in Quebec ! That's no help in selling it to the student crowd.


----------



## solkan_uk

I just lost interest, Dragon stopped containing anything I hadn't read before.

Dungeon I only bought for the D20 mini games, without those, it's not worth it.

Actually I'd buy a seperate mag for non D&D D20 stuff, a mix of Star Wars, Modern and mini-games.


----------



## philreed

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I'm doing my best not to reply to this thread, as I want you guys to provide as much "raw" feedback as possible without me or my staff getting in the way. I'll reply to the thread as a whole once everyone has had a chance to contribute.




I look forward to your reply. And, it must be said, I have to respect your self-control. I don't think I could take this much feedback without responding to 90%+ of the posts.


----------



## Arnwyn

An interesting (and timely) question, considering I just let my subscription lapse this month after more than 10+ years.


			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?



I no longer buy Dragon as it doesn't seem to meet my needs as a DM anymore. The _last_ thing I want are more feats, prestige classes, spells, or magic items (or races). Any book (regardless of publisher) that focuses on these things automatically garners a "no sale" from me.

Further, the lack of FR material (read: Ed Greenwood articles) also doesn't help. While I certainly understand that campaign settings don't appeal to a large segment, it _does_ appeal to _me_, and thus I must make a purchasing decision based on what I want/need for my game.

The lack of flavor and inspiration is also a detriment, in my eyes. As others have noted (and you have responded to), "The Magic Shop" vs. "Bazaar of the Bizarre" is exactly the symptom of certain attitudes/directions that bother me (a semi-recent editorial re: the planes didn't help either). I just don't see eye to eye with the (previous?) Dragon staff.

Finally, I have no interest whatsoever in Eberron, and find such materials valueless (and a cost/benefit analysis quickly tells me that they're not worth it to adapt).

In the end, I'm a DM who is far more interested in _location_ specific material, and not at all interested (anymore) in _character_ specific material. All the character specific material in the world is worth nothing without locations to play them in.

P.S.
I agree with everything Thorin Stoutfoot (Post #8) said, as well as BelenUmeria in Post #88.


> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?



To be honest, I don't think anything would do it for me. Dungeon (with it's location specific material) is what I need. I'm not sure what Dungeon could provide on top of that.

But, I'll be honest. The reason why I subscribed all those years ago was specifically for FR material.


----------



## Treebore

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?
> 
> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?
> 
> I




1. I echo the prevailing sentiment that Dragon just doesn't have anything I want. I don't want more PrC's, I don't want more magic items, I don't want a new PC race. I also don't want any more advice on how to powergame or munchkinize characters. I do that well enough on my own and so does everyone I play with, that is interested in doing it to begin with.


2.Changes? More Ecology articles on monsters that already exist in the MM's.

Ideas on how to make magic items, meaning systems or roleplaying elements. Such as what materials would be used to give what properties to an item.

Ideas on how to run economies, trading companies, etc... with helpful tables to streamline the process.

Systems for generating weather and integrate the effects into the campaign events.

Fleshed out guilds, societies, organizations that I can adapt to my use.

Advice columns on how to use/implement the less commonly used rules in the DMG.

Yeah, I know this is all touched on in the DMG, but I want fleshed out ways to actually use these rules.

I also like gaming in the modern and future era's, so an occasional coverage (perhaps every 2 or 3 issues) of these settings would be useful to me.

If all of this has been going on in Dragon I'm sorry I let my subscription lapse a couple of years ago. I do subscribe to Dungeon and love its new format. I haven't bought a single Dragon since my sub ended, but I was tempted with the Duergar Ecology article.

Also, with regards to Dungeon, I do not care about it having to be "in Greyhawk" or "in the Forgotten Realms"; I'm competent enough to alter as needed. I was irritated about Eberron, but then I read them and found out I could still alter them for use in my D&D games, so I got over it. So Dungeon has me very satisfied, now. Before the recent format change I was going to quit buying it too. I held on and am now a happy Dungeon subscriber.


----------



## dargoth3

Why dont I buy Dragon?

Well I only buy Dragon (and Dungeon for that matter) when theres Forgotten realms content and its been fairly lacking in both magazines of late.

So the way to get me to buy more issues is to increase the amount of FR content in the magazines.

There are 2 articles that Dragon does do that I do particularly like 

1) Stats for characters in the novels ie the WOSQ character articles

2) Faithes of Faerun Id like to see alot more of these (im particularly keen to see more of the Deity specfic spells in F&A, P&P and DhD converted to 3ed and published here)

When pazio publish new monsters in Dragon I suggest they take a leaf out of Monster manaul 3 and include a "Where this monster is found" paragraph for some of the published settings ie The FR, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Eberron etc


----------



## 13garth13

First off, I have been reading Dragon since my grandmother bought me the issue with the first part of the Nine Hells article (somewhere in the early #70s...can't recall offhand).  Secondly, it might be worth mentioning that I am a DM and my biases for articles will follow accordingly.  
  Allow me to echo some of the respondents to your query with the reply that Dragon just seems to have lost flavour and imagination...in many ways there is just something ineffable that has vanished over the last few months (much more noticeably {sp?} since the format change, but my sense of dissatisfaction had been growing for a few months prior).  As such I allowed my subscription to lapse and will now see on a case-by-case basis from here on in.
  I love monster articles, although I must go against what seems to be the popular grain and note that I have never found "Ecology" articles terribly useful to me (even back in the day...although both the Ecology of the Mind Flayer and the Ecology of the Doppleganger were total classics!)  Unless there's something like adventure hooks or some interesting ideas on species variations, etc., then there's just nothing that will honestly be quite useful for the few rounds that the creature will be "on screen".  
  I don't mind magic item articles as long as they are interesting and useful in an average campaign.
  I LOVE the idea of a Creature Catalogue!!  That would certainly get my interest piqued, because monsters are something that I can actually USE in my game.
  Perhaps that is the key...I just haven't found much that was useful in recent issues...
  Articles about locations (complete with maps) whether on the Prime or the planes would be useful, as would be new monsters and magic items.  Give me things that spark the imagination, rather than dull it with pedestrian writing and dull, ordinary topics.  I used to read Dragon to be inspired...and that hasn't happened in awhile...
  I don't mind the computer game articles if they actually converted monsters rather than a seemingly endless supply of spells and feats.... .... Allow me to reiterate what many are saying; there is not really much need (IMO of course) for new feats and spells.  The core manuals have a great deal of them (although I will also reveal my campaign world bias and state that I looooved the Greyhawk regional feats; thanks for those, Erik) and of course there are more spells than you can shake a stick at, most of which are simple variations on a theme.
  Perhaps within the parentheses of my last comment lies the key; feats and such are much more useful when they are immediately applicable and particularly if they are aimed at a particular campaign niche.  I think that the move towards the generic in an attempt to make articles more palatable to homebrewers has crippled the degree of flavour that should be present.
  I would relish a return to articles devoted to particular campaign worlds (especially more Greyhawk...although everyone else should have their day too of course   
  The things I don't find useful in the slightest are the Class Acts (boring, flavourless, and for the most part containing information that most of your readership could come up with on their own) and fiction (don't mind it, but never read it or use it so it does tend to amount to wasted space).  In addition, the seemingly endless stream of prestige classes leaves me cold (does there really have to be some every issue?!) 
  In terms of ways to improve and to summarize, I will just say that more Greyhawk (in case I haven't mentioned it previously  would be wonderful, as would more articles such as locations and monsters that are both flavourful and immediately usefull.

  Cheers,
  Colin


----------



## Emirikol

EriK:

One thing I forgot to mention.  I dislike that magic items are grouped by theme.  44 Banjo's of Brendigund don't turn me on.  I'd rather see them grouped by level.  I detest searching through lists of 'themed' items to try to find one that might be something I could give to the PC's.  It would be one thing if it was part of a larger article, but I'd still rather see it still broken down by levels.  

LOW 
MED
HIGH
VERY HIGH

We do this for DUNGEON adventures, why not for magical items?

Another thing:  I'd like to see EBERRON/FR/GREYHAWK articles.  As I noted earlier, a side-bar helping guys (like the one that posted above) NOT have to 'adapt' something, all the better.

Jay H


----------



## Sledge

1. I don't buy it because it is a nuisance to read.  If I can't sit down and read it through and enjoy, why would I want to pay for it.
Also I have found very little actually balanced and with some real flavour.
Annoying items like fiction that is just long enough to be annoying and has no D&D interpretation makes me want to gag.  Anything on non RPG games is not D&D.  An occasional sidebar (i.e. 1 column in an issue, not on each page) is okay, but articles on the CMG do not belong.

2. To get me to buy I would need some good readable articles.  Also get OOTS and I will find it hard to refuse.  Finally make it OGC so I can actually get some use out of it over the internet.
If these 3 things happen I know the magazine will get my money.


----------



## kigmatzomat

I think I'm like most gamers in that I read Dragon for a year or two after a new edition and then taper off.  I haven't picked up an issue of Dragon in months.  Why?  In the early days we want to hear what other people have come up with and can expand our understanding of the game's strengths and weaknesses faster than by gaming.  But now it's been several years since a new edition's come out (3.5 is a revision, not a new edition) and we understand what it is.  We've got all the mechanics we need and anything more tends to contradict canon. 

So the real question is: What does Dragon do for gamers in a mature edition?  You can't generate rules; I have a shelf full of WotC materials and could easily fill bookcases with 3rd party materials.  I'll never use it all.  You have to go for flavor and industry.

I haven't picked up a Dragon since the redesign so I might be speaking to the choir on these:

*Serious, critical reviews of OGL/d20 products and not just WotC stuff.  Not everyone has access to ENWorld.  You want to do an issue on Dwarves?  Include reviews and comparisons of Complete/Slayers Guide/etc on Dwarves.  Don't just hit the major publishers, go ahead and review PDFs or small market products.  And I want to know what sucks about the book.  How does the price hold up against the rest of the market?  What other books are out there that compete with it?  

*Wide ranging setting support.  Take Ecology and show how common, OGL creatures would behave in different settings.  FR vs Eberron vs. oriental vs greek vs celtic.  Show me how goblins can be everything from sniveling toadies to an angry hoard that only attacks in thousand-goblin strong tribes.  How will goblins fight peasants & samurai vs how they fight centurions in phalanxes or mounted cavalry?  

*When focusing on a setting (cold, space, planar, etc) be sure to explain how it interacts with different levels.  A 2nd level party is terrified of snowstorms; most 15th level ones don't even blink.  Give ideas on what kind of rolls go with the terrain, how to make it acceptably complicated, what kinds of information the characters will have, and how the native widlife uses the environment.  

*Try to minimize product-line specific theme issues and if you have them, explain how this or that would work in a different kind of campaign or if it is appropriate.  

*Don't make a Dragon-exclusive the theme of an issue; they rarely fit in most people's game.  I seem to recall a couple of novel-specific issues of Dragon that had no support outside of Dragon (Shanarra?).  But just because I don't want an entire issue focused on one setting doesn't mean I don't want anything new; I just don't want the new thing to dominate the issue.  You want to do Shanarra, you make it tie into the rest of the issue's theme and possibly take more of the tack of how to convert the Shanarra books to D&D.  

Ahhh, my spleen feels vented.


----------



## Emirikol

How about sample adventuring parties in stat form with some light personalities.

Another gripe:  why don't your prestige classes ever come with SAMPLE characters?  There should be a set-up just like in the DMG.  One at first, one at 5th and one at 8th (or so).  Now, that would be REALLY helpful.

Controversial stuff is always nice too.  Like the stats for various characters from books or movies.  People still love to argue why Raistlin-DL has such a statistically high Con...



jh


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## Emirikol

How about sample adventuring parties in stat form with some light personalities.

Another gripe:  why don't your prestige classes ever come with SAMPLE characters?  There should be a set-up just like the NPC's in the DMG.  One at first, one at 5th and one at 8th (or so).  Now, that would be REALLY helpful.

Controversial stuff is always nice too.  Like the stats for various characters from books or movies.  People still love to argue why Raistlin-DL has such a statistically high Con...



jh


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## DaffCon1

I actually do buy Dragon, and I have for years -- since like '90 or so.

Having said that, I can say I've not been nearly as enthused over the magazine as I used to be. It's getting to be too crunch-heavy. New PrCs, new feats, variant rules for this and that...

I want my Ecology articles back. The new version of D&D tells us nothing more about a critter than how to slay it -- we get nothing of its ecology or anything like that, important details that added flavor and gave us real, non-CR reasons for including monsters. By knowing a bit on how a critter lives, we can use it far more effectively.

I want my fiction back. There's been some utter crap as far as fiction is concerned, but there's also been some true gems in there. I used to always look forward to reading the fiction... And while we're at it, go back to accepting submissions from unpublished writers! What's wrong with giving a new writer a chance?

I want more campaign-specific articles, particularly for the Realms. Campaign-specific articles are often very flavorful, and I draw more inspiration from that flavor than I do from yet another dry "Here's a prestige class for left-handed, near-sighted, red-headed paladins named Fred." If I need a rule, I can make it up or wing it, or both. Give me flavor -- that inspires me. Crunch bores me.

Lose the Gary Gygax column. My personal feelings about the man aside, I have drawn little pleasure and zero usefulness from reading those. (Please, no one attack me on this one. I'll not reply.)

I want it to return to being a magazine that I can't wait to read, instead of one I leave sitting around for weeks before I ever flip thru it. I want it to be entertaining, again.


----------



## Christopher Lambert

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I'm about half-way through a much needed vacation, so of course I'm sitting here thinking about work.
> 
> I know many of you _do_ buy Dragon regularly, and for that I send you a hearty holdiay cheer and a simple statement: thanks.
> 
> But I also know that many of you don't buy Dragon, and I'd like to know why. Over my 20+ years as a D&D player, I've had "on" periods and "off" periods with the magazine, so I know what sorts of things went into my personal decision not to buy Dragon, but I'd like to know yours.
> 
> If I can make some changes to the magazine to make it a more attractive purchase, there's a chance we all go away happy.
> 
> So, if you're _not_ a regular customer of Dragon magazine (let's say you buy fewer than three issues annually), please take a minute or two to answer the following questions.
> 
> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?




Too expensive, and rarely is there enough useful material, for reasons generally stated above.

I'm also very tired of prestige classes. You used to have Class Acts for clerics of FR deities, for instance, where you suggested ways of multiclassing the characters so they could replicate their 2e abilities. The articles suggested _not_ using prestige classes.

Sure enough, WotC later starts turning these concepts into prestige classes. It's probably more WotC's fault than Paizo's fault but it's very irritating. It's also too difficult to find specific Class Acts because of the lack of that index.

Only a small amount of material should be campaign-specific. It's pretty easy to generate material that pertains to a terrain type, character class, or what not without stepping on the toes of a campaign setting. (Say "desert" not "Athas" or "Anauroch".)



> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?




I'd like to see themed articles, such as a "high-level fighter feats" article (well, more an entire issue based on that, really  ) or "character concept of [insert Campaign Setting here]". I'm more interested in things that work within the core rules than new rules (such as new uses for skills), although in a few areas (like high-level fighters) more feats are needed.

Any new crunch needs playtesting. A lot of it has clearly not been playtested, or it wasn't tested enough, or perhaps no munchkins got to look at it. You should visit the WotC boards, find out who the best munchkins are, and have them playtest your material. They will find every loophole and point them out to you. You could use an MSN or Yahoo group for this. If you're doing psionics stuff, I can recommend ... err... myself 

There should be standards _ahead of time_ for how powerful new crunch should be so you don't end up with a lame feat on page 8 and a super-powerful feat on page 10. (I saw stuff like this in the Book of Iron Might... that wasn't exactly a joyous occassion.) These standards should reflect the power level of the core rules to prevent a general powering-up of the options.

I'm not averse to psionics, D20 Modern or even fiction, but such stuff should be used sparingly to avoid alienating the fan base.


----------



## Zaukrie

Erik, thanks for asking. I am a subscriber, and have many of the magazines since the the issues were in the 50 range. I've let the subscription go a few times, and I think I'm about to let it go again.

I'll actually take time if you want to go through the last couple years and let you know what worked and didn't, but the fact I can remember articles from the 80's and 90's better than I can almost any since 3rd edition should be a warning sign.

Like many here, I miss the fluff. I remember someone mentioning that the minis handbook should have explained what a shambling mound really was. Someone pointed them to the MM (or whichever book has it in this version). I'm still not sure that person would understand what a mound was, as WoTC has removed most of the interesting stuff from their monster books, a trend that has been echoed in Dragon.

If you want to know what would keep me subscribing, go back and find that thread where you asked us what our favorite articles were. They were all fluff, with crunch in there as notes.

I think your job is hard. Most of us older gamers have seen a million books and articles on elves and dwarves, but newer players haven't. You need to reach both groups. Good luck, and I mean that because I love this hobby.

I thought this idea was interesting:

"I'd almost like to see Dragon be the D&D National Geographic. I'd like to see articles on historical settings, unique places, creatures and races, etc. Ideas are what drives the game IMO, not new PrC's and feats. "

Think about articles on magical, mystical places, the people that live there and how they are affected by what is going on around them. There are a million rules books, we need ideas (or at least I do) that can be used in many ways. I think back to articles on fantasy castles, the Nine Hells, AKA, Ecology, Sheens, you get the idea.

Increasing comics and fiction won't bring me back. Depth of articles is your only chance to compete against Phil Reed (great work there) and free content on web sites. I think I rambled here, sorry for that. Good luck finding Dragon's soul again. It seems sterile and rather boring (thanks for bringing back Bizarre of the Bizarre - if I could have, I would have cancelled my subscription the moment I saw that letter to the editor). Where's the fantasy in my fantasy?


----------



## quindia

*Ditto... for the most part*

I agree with a lot of points made here, but many of the things people wish for are more DM material which now belongs in _Dungeon_ - and the reason almost everyone is saying "...but I do buy _Dungeon_!"

I still do buy _Dragon_ but like many of the other posts I read (I stopped after three or four pages) I just don't need anymore prestige classes, feats, or spells and have been considering not getting it any more.

What would make me more interested in _Dragon_? Hard to say actually. I am a DM 90% of the time and most of the articles that I am drawn to are in that category. Unlike most of the posts here, I also don't mind non-D&D articles. I miss the Ares section from the old days. I guess I would like to see full articles along the line of Robin Laws' "The Play's the Thing" column (while I'm on the subject of columns I'd like to see Dungeoncraft grouped together under one cover... maybe the kind of thing we're going to get with the DMG II?). 

Anyway, good luck, Erik. I sincerely hope you'll be able to revitalize _Dragon_, but without the DM articles, you've got a tough job!


----------



## Erik Mona

The desire to tell you guys about changes I've _already made_ to the magazine is overwhelming, but I'm going to hold off for another day or so.

This feedback is enormously helpful, and I really appreciate everyone's time. Keep it coming.

--Erik Mona
Still on Vacation, Still Working


----------



## fafhrd

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> This feedback is enormously helpful, and I really appreciate everyone's time. Keep it coming.
> 
> --Erik Mona
> Still on Vacation, Still Working




Erik, really, go have a margarita and turn off the computer.  It's well earned.   You couldn't stop us from giving you an earful at this point, and we'll be here when you've rested.


----------



## Erik Mona

Nah. Listening to all of you agree with me is too fun. 

--Erik


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## MerricB

Which is the first issue we'll see your changes in effect, Erik?

Cheers!


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## jokamachi

I let my subscription run out a month ago.

In my opinion, there's not enough 'fluff.' If we could see more setting specific information, especially for the World of Greyhawk, then I would be persuaded to come back into the subscriber fold. A classic setting like that deserves attention, and I think Dragon and Dunegon are its only hope right now.

Also, maps would be really cool. I subscribed to Dungeon when I heard about the huge Flanaess map which is on the way, and I think a lot of others did, too, so why not try that for a while. Something like that for Dragon would recapture a lot of subscribers, I think.

Lastly, lose the crunch. We're up to our eyeballs in feats and prestige classes. I already have hundreds that I will never use, so why continue to beat us over the head with such stuff? 

Here's hoping for a rebirth of an excellent magazine,


Jokamachi


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## Breakdaddy

Yeah, let us know when the changes you are implementing take effect, Erik. I eagerly await details!


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## Napftor

Well, I do subscribe to Dragon, but I'm going to respond anyway.  Not to beat the horse, but there really is too much crunch and ejecting the fiction would ensure my dollars continue to flow to Paizo.

Although the changeover now has Dragon as player-only oriented, why not bridge the gap between it and Dungeon by having a monthly feature about "First Time DMs."  Show those players who haven't stepped behind the screen how they can try their hand at it.  I think the most simple and rudimentary advice would be refreshing even to experienced DMs.


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## gigz

*My take*

I guess it's time for me to chime in. I currently susbscribe, and don't have any plans to let it lapse in the near future. Not that I am completely happy with the magazine, but I fully believe that it will get better and better as it begins to find a solid direction. Already I have seen articles (both Fluffy and Crunchy) that were well worth the time it took to read. The most recent example was the article on the 7 deadly sin domains. That type of material is what I think is most needed. Crunchy, with a very flavorful Fluff to make it interesting. Same goes with the Ecology of (insert monster here). 

To agree with some others: 
Fiction (plain fiction with no game relevence) is fairly usless to me (both as a player and as a DM). 
Fewer PrC and Races: While the occasional one is a fine idea, I only make a few characters a year so giving me 12 when I only have time for 2 is overkill.

To disagree with some:
Comics - I miss some of the earlier ones (KotDT, DragonMirth) and wouldn't mind a few more thrown in.
Class Acts - I love these. These are one of my favorite parts, when they're done well. I think they work best when some of them are crunchy, and others are background and fluff (in the same issue)

My $0.02

/gigz


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## Geoffrey

I used to buy several Dragons a year. I haven't bought any since it became 3rd edition stuff. Beyond that, it all seems so crunchy and rules-lawyery. There is very little magic and wonder left in it. It also seems too video gamey.

I know there's no way you'd ever start supporting OD&D or AD&D, but perhaps if you started running a lot of Castles & Crusades articles, I might be enticed to buy some issues.


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## scourger

I've got the last 70 issues of Dungeon, but only about 10 or fewer total issues of Dragon.  Here's why, by way of answers to your question.



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?
> 
> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?




1.  I don't buy Dragon because it has too much crunch.  I see many other posters share this same basic view, but I repeat it nonetheless.  I think it's because Dragon is styled as the player's magazine.  Players seem to love new crunch.  I like some, but it gets overwhelming.  I really don't need or want any new feats or prestige classes--even when I play but especially when I DM.  I purchased and subscribe to Dungeon to get adventures.  Fitting, since it is a DM's magazine.  

Of the Dragon issues I have for d20, here were my reasons for buying:

#310 - DM's screen.

#309 - 15 tips to speed up combat (also intirgued by Sun Tzu's D&D startegies)

#298 - I have no idea.  Probably the battlemat.  

#297 - DITTO.

#296 - It must have bee the Greyhawk gazetteer index.

#295 - Likely the tower dungeon tiles.

#294 - For the write-up of Greyhawk gods, particularly Rao.

#285 - RTTTOEE tie-in information (but I never ran the module).

Unfortunately, I used none of this information to any appreciable extent in my D&D game except the DM screen.  The screen was not particualrly well-done, but I have used it.  I recently borrowed a deluxe DM screen and may very well upgrade to it (it had better information and the landscape layout is preferable to me).

2.  I would give Dragon another look if it had more DM-friendly content.  After all, the DM is a player, too.  I don't suppose Dragon could run adventures, but even an annual Dragon adventure issue would probably get my attention.  Dragon could offer mini-campaign settings or revisions of old settings.  Birthright would get a look from me.  It doesn't have to be complicated.  In fact, it shouldn't be.  It should build on the core game in new & creative ways.  I don't need a dozen new feats and prestige classes for a mini-campaign setting; I need the flavor text (the fluff) to make the setting compelling.  

Perhaps some ideas for running a core D&D game with low magic and high adventure in the vein of authors like Robert E. Howard (without stepping on any licenses) with ideas on how to limit spellcasters and a simple presentation of two oppposing deities in the setting (like a good, healing god and a bad, corrupting snake god).  Standard D&D foes are presented in gritty fashion, but the emphasis is on human, non-magic heroes (especially barbarians) battling strange mystics and their monstrous servants.  Now, you have my attention.  

Or a mini-campaign setting describing how to run a more modern D&D game set shortly after the turn of the 20th century in which the player characters are all associated with a university that has a group that investigates paranormal incidents remniscent of the writings of Howard Lovecraft (here again being careful not to step on any licensing toes).  Maybe the PCs are restricted to the NPC classes in the DMG (but can't just can't advance as adepts without studying dangerous tomes of ancient or alien lore) but can have guns per the rules described in the DMG.  Maybe you throw some modern craft, knowledge and prefession skills in the mix and a pilot skill.  The monsters of the MM take on a more horrific element when encountered in the non-fantasy setting with character f weaker classes.  Now, my interest in that issue is piqued. 

The early d20 mini-games in Polyhedron based on the D&D rules were great (especially Omega World) and similar articles would be worthwhile for Dragon (although I suspect many readers don't want non-sword-&-sorcery content in their magazine).  Simialrly Star Wars RPG content, especially adventures, could get me to look at Dragon.  (Same concern, though.)  

Tie the Dragon content to Dungeon adventures.  If there is a new Adventure Path in Dungeon, put some setting information in Dragon.  NOT new feats, etc. that make the Dungeon adventure useless (or less useful) without the Dragon information; but maybe an area map or a secret set of runes in which messages may be written in that setting.  The article on dwarven dethek runes from an old Best of Dragon (# IV, I think--the only one I've got) is one of my favorites.  Articles on subjects like runes add a lot of flavor to many games.  

Whatever you do with Dragon, you've got to promote it.  Here and Dungeon are good ways to reach consumers like me.  Otherwise, I don't give the magazine much of a look.  I haven't this calendar year.  

So, that's my advice for Dragon.


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## CronoDekar

The big thing for me is the $40 price tag for the year's subscription -- if it were $20 I'd most likely subscribe (maaaaybe $25 -- what can I say, I'm a pennypusher).  Other than that, it's that I rarely see something that stands out to me.  Certain articles just have that _something_ which makes me really enjoy reading them.  I'll think about it though, look at the issue, and ask myself "do I really want to pay $7 just for this one or two articles?"  The answer has never been "yes."

Thinking about what have had that "something" for me: the bard prestige classes back in 270-something, the ninja core class, the article with that system from Oathbound (where you pay XP and get abilities -- that was neat), those old "road to Eberron" or whatever articles, and the article on the Quori (the last one gets me close to buying it).

It's not really a crunch/fluff thing-- there's some of each I like and some I don't like.  Sometimes there's crunch that's completely not something I need (the article involving the seven sins come to mind).  The only "theme" I can really think of is Eberron -- I love the setting and would like to see more on it, though too much would certainly be overkill.  Sooooo, I really can't anticipate any additions you can do besides the price change that'd make me want to buy them -- there'd just have to be stuff I happen to find interesting that's consistently in the issues.

Things that come to mind that I almost never read when I flip through it at a newsstand: fiction, Sage Advice, letters (why read opinions in a magazine when I can go online to read them?), those "articles-by-class" articles whenever they mention flaws or unoriginal character concepts (you can be a fighter WITH HEAVY ARMOR AND A SHIELD  ), anything dealing with minis, anything dealing with "this video game/movie/novel is so cool so let's write some stuff on it!" (though I was humored by the chocobo stats), and fiction again.  I don't mind the prestige classes, magic items, and spells so much, but I wish they'd be kept to ones that are particularly interesting, useful, unique, and (in the case of prestiges) adaptable.

Oh, and do continue doing that thing where you give suggestions for using material in the various settings -- such little info can make a big difference.  In fact, I'd like to see more of stuff like this in various articles.


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## Faraer

So Erik has to find out what current readers want, what potential readers want, then please people who want (to be dualistic for the sake of argument) more roolz and less; more named-setting support and less; a more traditional tone and a 'cooler' one; short stories and no short stories; articles with context/depth and stand-alone 'tools philosophy' pieces. And shift more of the cultural locus of D&D away from ENWorld and other online forums.

Some task, and some good suggestions above on how to do this impossible-sounding thing. Just now the two that come to mind are 

-- Get writing that sounds as if the author cares, that is not written according to a rigid style guide like a GURPS book. I would say about a half-dozen consistently first-rate authors have appeared in the magazine in the last few years; you can't afford to let them go, or to make potentially good new authors think they have to regulate themselves. I wouldn't choose which campaign to play in according to what ruleset it used, and (here's another dualism) you have to keep the D&D focus but, in most cases, an article that's only interesting if you use the D&D rules is not a good article.

-- Make people understand that an article in an existing setting is not less transportable than one in an unnamed, unknown 'generic' setting.

I certainly side with "Bazaar of the Bizarre" against "Magic Shop", good gods. And girdle against belt, phaerimm against phaerimms. It does no good if everyone understands if nobody cares.

Re "Faiths of Faerûn", the original idea was to have multiclass paths and only occasional prestige classes, but it switched to prestige classes only because they're supposed to be popular.


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## OregonGM

*Done with Dragon*

Add my voice to the list of people dropping Dragon for Dungeon.

Everything I read Dragon for is now in Dungeon.  I don't need 15 more PrCs or Magic Items or whathaveyou.   Don't change Dragon on _my_ account, there is a need for these things for a lot of players.   I, however, am not one of them.  I started with Dragon #63 and I'm utterly burned out on that kind of thing.
   The niche left unfilled for me is the REAL practical stuff.  Where is the best place to buy graph paper?  "How to organize your campaign"  "who makes the most reliable mechanical pencils".


----------



## francisca

Some more thoughts:

I'd like to see monthly coverage for Greyhawk, which is probably asking too much.  How about a tri-monthly rotation where month 1 is a Greyhawk article, month 2 is Forgotten Realms, and month 3 is something else, either an old setting (Mystara, Lankhmar, Planescape, etc..) or a new setting, such as Midnight or even the Scarred Lands.  Then rinse and repeat.

Also, I know his health isn't what it used to be, but I for one would like to see Gygax in Dragon again.

So yeah, more Greyhawk, more Gygax.  less fiction.

Oh, and hand Rich Burlew a check and put Order of the Stick in Dragon.

and less fiction.


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## Erik Mona

>>>
Which is the first issue we'll see your changes in effect, Erik?
>>>

327, but full-tilt by #330.

--Erik


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## Faraer

What about Greyhawk fiction by Gygax?


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## Erik Mona

Wouldn't that be fun?

--Erik


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## Andre

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> The desire to tell you guys about changes I've _already made_ to the magazine is overwhelming, but I'm going to hold off for another day or so.




Fair enough. 

BTW - what is the current readership of Dragon? I was trying to convince a friend to submit an article idea and one of my arguments is that far more people will see it in Dragon vs. a pdf on RPGNow.

Thanks!


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## Erik Mona

We're currently quoting a paid circulation of 65,000. If there are PDFs that get that kind of audience, I'm in the wrong business. 

--Erik


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## fafhrd

Just for reference could you provide the numbers for Dungeon?


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## francisca

Faraer said:
			
		

> What about Greyhawk fiction by Gygax?



Um.  OK.  I've firmly been in the no fiction camp, however, I think perhaps D&D setting related fiction, bundled with an introduction to a class, spells, or fleshed out town and/or NPCs might be a good fit.

(especially it is Greyhawk penned by Gygax)


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## francisca

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> We're currently quoting a paid circulation of 65,000. If there are PDFs that get that kind of audience, I'm in the wrong business.
> 
> --Erik



Forgive my ignorance, but is that subscriptions, or subs + regular distribution to game and book stores?

And thanks for asking for our opinions.  We all needed to have our egos pumped up a little more.    

and stop teasing us, what changes are you making?


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## Ariddrake

Since we have this forum I would like to contribute. I have been a subscriber for a while but am thinking of letting it lapse.

Please get rid of the fiction (It's like beating a dead horse, sorry)
I use stuff like the name generation tables (Inns, Taverns, etc.)
The Creature Catalog idea is great
I like the the ecology articles, they are a little bland though
I did not like the Samuri vs. Ninja article at all (whoever is the better fighter wins, duh)
The how to create a campaign series was great (Maybe next time a City)
I really dislike the article series about kicking out a disruptive player, using a quater as a token, or finding a quiet place to play like the local library (those were bad)
I like stuff like 101 plot hooks, rumours, hauntings, etc.

Thanks for listening


----------



## ColonelHardisson

Hey Erik, on a tangent, is it possible we'll ever see the d20 minigames from Polyhedron collected together into a single source, maybe with a few new minigames?

I'd buy such a book in a second.


----------



## Dragonhelm

Andre said:
			
		

> He said that Bazaar of the Bizarre would be called Magic Shop because Magic Shop "is self explanatory".




 

Not only did Bazaar have flavor, it was traditional.  Anybody who had read more than one issue of Dragon knew what it was.  

I remember picking up some old Dragon magazines, and when I saw Bazaar of the Bizarre in an issue, I would get excited.

I also remember when Tasha's Hideous Laughter was uncontrollable...  

EDIT:  Just saw that Bazaar is coming back.  One suggestion - more bizarre in the Bazaar.    Those oddball magic items were some of my favorites.


Perhaps re-reading some of the old issues of Dragon, resurrecting some old articles, and getting back to the very heart of the magazine is in order.



			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Hey Erik, on a tangent, is it possible we'll ever see the d20 minigames from Polyhedron collected together into a single source, maybe with a few new minigames?
> 
> I'd buy such a book in a second.




I second this motion!


----------



## PJ-Mason

Great thread. Thanks for asking, Erik. 
My last Dragon issue was the first with the price hike, so i've been out of it for a little while.

I have a hundred ideas milling about in my head, but i'll stick to a handful of things.

1)I've only ever read one story arc that i particularly liked (the Fool Wolf stories). By and large they left me cold, or i just didn't read them. Chalk up another anti-fiction vote. I'm surprised at the majority of that sentiment. Pleasantly so.

2)I like the idea of a revolving setting specific article. One month Greyhawk, one FR, one (*gulp*) Eberron, etc. Everyone just has to wait their turn. I'd be much happier with a "every setting gets shot" set-up. Thats fair. Especially fan-based or 3rd party material, if its possible money/legal wise. Although i understand if that seems a little too....Reality TV meets RPGs.  This will also make sure that when that Greyhawk (or whichever) article comes around, you'll had enough time to make sure it is quality. That being said, i'd like to see Dragon keep things as generic as possible when it comes to the majority of the articles in any one issue. When you spotlight one setting, you are alienating a majority of the fans regardless of that setting. Why knee-cap yourself like that before the reader even reads the article? Especially in this age of setting-partianship that we are in!    One setting article an issue can't hurt anybody, but more than one or two gives rise to the voice of the Cranky Ones.

3)Like so many others, i think the ratio of mechanics to "fluff" is unbalanced. As of my last issue it seems like the ratio was 70/30 (in favor of mechanics). I'd like to see it at least 50/50, if not leaning in the opposite direction. I also agree with the poster that said 10 casual feats do not equal one carefully crafted feat....nailed it on the head!! In interest of public safety, i'll say nothing of prestige classes.....Quality beats quantity every day of the week and twice on Sunday!!

4) Minature rules should have its own rag. Get out of Dragon!! Okay, so that was more emotional than logical. Sue me. 

5)I like the historic articles like the ones for the historic cities and the ones for castles, etc. Those are fun reads! I can see where some think they are boring, but they are often the first ones i'll go for.

Well, if i think of more ideas, i'll post them. Don't know if it was helpful, but there it is!


----------



## Ghostwind

Erik-


First off, I applaud your efforts to solicit the opinions of gamers who may or may not be readers. You've got your work cut out for you. Now onto your questions...

*1. Why don't you buy Dragon?*
Like what someone else said, I'm not your target market. I buy maybe 4 issues a year because most of what is there doesn't really interest me. I used to subscribe or buy every month for years during the 1E/2E times. But I quit about 2 or 3 years before 3.0 was launched. Why? Because I outgrew it and had more information in those 250-300 issues or so than I would ever be able to use. So, I decided to quit buying, period.

*2. What would it take to bring you back?*
For starters, more value for the price. Give me a reason to pay that hefty subscription price. How?

1. Offer pdf copies of the issues for download in a password-protected subscriber only section of the website. I use a laptop extensively at the gaming table and having the ability to cut/paste information from an issue would make me more inclined to use the material in the magazine for my game.

2. As others have said, have the E-Tools datasets available as soon as the issue is available. If I can use it in E-Tools, I will be more receptive to it. 

3. Themed issues are okay, but it needs to be broader in scope. Make an effort to make _Dragon_ more than a Wotc-only club. Instead of an article that talks about using _Complete Arcane_ in Eberron, why not have an article that focuses on using material from say, _Spells & Magic_ from Bastion Press or _Occult Lore_ from Atlas Games? Show players how they can enrich their game with material other than just Wotc's. 

4. Use _Dragon_ as a teaching tool. Every issue doesn't need to be packed with tons of new game mechanics. There is more out there than anyone can ever use. Instead, give me articles that I can use to not only grow the hobby but also show other players why they would want to buy the magazine on a regular basis. Article ideas along this line of thought would be: using skills in new and interesting ways, how to understand and play each alignment with lots of examples, practical uses for zero level spells, how to easily track and maintain spell components without bogging down gameplay, understanding when a character should go with a ranged weapon and then choosing the right one, and so forth.

5. Give me the tools to create things. If, as a player, I want to build a keep, show me how. Don't give me 10 different castles already made up. Take me through step by step on the construction, the costs, and suggested modes of offense/defense (complete with costs). Then once the basics are covered, refer me to other good sources, such as _Stronghold Builder's Guide_ and _Fields of Blood_. Don't be afraid to make recommendations beyond the scope of Wotc books.

6. Give me fiction, but temper it with good game mechanics. Having the fiction is fine if I have a point of reference. The main character uses a new spell? Include it. An interesting NPC or two is presented? Fully stat 'em out so they are ready to be used in my game. Make the game material relevant to the fiction (and vice versa). Want to introduce new crunch? Give us some solid fiction that we can wrap the game concepts around. For example, in Mongoose's _Slayer's Guide to Trolls_ there was a small fiction sidebar that illustrated using trolls as PCs. A troll was nursing a broken nose while it healed and the party druid was translating a discussion between it and the barbarian (who had broke its nose). End result, the troll joined the party because she found the barbarian to be cute. The fiction set the example on using the troll as a PC.

7. More open content. I'm not saying the entire magazine needs to be open content, but having at least an article or two in every issue (with a proper OGC/section 15 designation) would go a long way for me. Get other publishers on board. Have members of their prospective design teams write an article in return for a discounted rate on an ad. For example, have Tom Knauss (Bastion) contribute an article on a locale in Wildwood or Henry Lopez do something on an organization in Arcanis.

8. Bring back the product reviews. One of the things I enjoyed about _Dragon_ when I collected it years ago was that they would do reviews of products and those reviews were fair, honest, and weren't afraid to speak ill of a product. Review not only Wotc products, but also other d20/OGL company works. But instead of writing reviews like what you read on the web, get people who work in the industry to write the reviews. Have people who understand the design philosophies and reasons why products are put together in a certain way. For example, ask Jamie Chambers to write a review of _Torn Asunder_ or Andy Collins to review _Advanced Bestiary_. Not only do you get a review from a person who likely understands what the author(s) were trying to achieve, but also they can point out where the book succeeds and where it breaks down and, more importantly, why.

9. Playtesting. To be honest, you need this badly. Others here have gone into better detail about the reasons why and I will only echo their sentiments. Work harder to make things more balanced. Get a good group of playtesters and make sure the submitted articles have been gone through thoroughly before one last final edit.

10. Attitude. If there is one thing that is missing from _Dragon_ for me, it's the attitude of being the best. At one time, _Dragon_ could be relied upon to be totally kick butt with every issue because it had an in-your-face attitude. A lot of that was due to the high quality art and the even higher quality articles. Up the ante a bit. Make your articles more original, more daring, more innovative. I don't want to read about another sub-race of elf that has an incredible prestige class and is so powerful that no one will ever want to play anything but it again. I want an article that illustrates the tactical strategies of kobolds against a party of low, mid and high level characters. Show me how to not only kill the party, but make the players absolutely fear the word 'kobold' when I speak it. Likewise, show me how I can play my elf so he becomes feared by orcs by using just the core rules and maybe one or two new tricks.

11. Include more articles from established professionals. Certain authors develop 'sub-cult' followings among gamers. Why not develop a feature article series that spotlights these folks? Have Wil Upchurch go into the hows and whys of designing NPCs. Does he tend to use common feats or templates? If so, why? What is his thought process when he has to create a certain level villain? Let the gamers get closer to the designers. By giving designers a bit of the spotlight, you open the doors for increased sales down the road. If Wil's first article is a hit and generates buzz, then you can use that to your advantage 8 months down the road when he does a follow-up. This point can even be tied into point number 7 above.

12. Give me more world neutral articles. Show me how to use this stuff from Eberron in a non-Eberron setting. The Ecology of ... articles are great in this aspect because I can use them in virtually any campaign world that I am currently running. Give me articles that easily transcend the borders of different settings with little or no work. For example, show me how to fight a dragon and live without coming up with a new PrC or feats. Show me how brains can be better than steel. Then, in a followup article in that issue or next's, detail how a dragon performs best in combat.

13. More flavor with that crunch. Presenting new and interesting game mechanics is always fun. But go the extra mile and wrap a lot of flavor around that crunchy mechanic. Got a new feat? Why does it exist? How can it be used? What would inspire a player to select it and use it in a game? Give me scenarios and situations that I can point to and say, "Oh, now I understand why he gets that special ability."

Lastly, I know that _Dungeon_ is meant for GMs while _Dragon_ is a player's magazine, but a lot of players are DMs and vice versa. With the bulk of _Dungeon_ dedicated to adventures, it becomes quite difficult to include the number of DM related articles that I would like to see. So bring _Dragon_ back into the realm of being a magazine for everyone and not just one party.

Regardless how this all turns out, I wish you all of the luck in the world concerning the future of Paizo and its magazines.


----------



## velm

1. Why don't you buy the magazine?

2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?

I actually had a subscription for a while.  Think it was for about 3 years or so, been a while.  I think it started with issue 167, might have been a little over, not sure, I remember a few after the issue with the holographic cover, 200.

I dont play as regular as I would like to now, back then, I think i was also in a lapse for players.  I was still into it, but hard to do with not as many players.  

I really love some of the articles, they can really throw alot of good ideas into the mix.  Some of the ones that I like are:

the various ecologies, they give a 'feel' for the monster
new magic items, always a welcome thing
new monsters, again, interesting challenges
variations on something standard, like the witch, and various paladins (from 1st ed, obviously) but the effect is still the same.  They can add to gameplay.
I miss the various reviews of computer games and other role playing games.

why do i NOT get it anymore?  tough one there.  Very hard to answer, I used to look forward to seeing them at the Waldens, and flip thru them, now I just give it cursory glance if any.  Not sure why.  I think the current 3E system is a great thing but hard to place why the magazine does not spark anything in me anymore.  I have not seen any current artwork, but back in the day it had a had a great feel to it.  Still not in any regular group, i have a few dry spells whenever i move.  I am in the military, and sometimes when I go on deployments it can be difficult to get mail, and storing in on a ship when underway for 6 months can be rough.  kinda bad excuse, but that is one minor reason.  

One of the best things ever done was that DRAGON on disk setup.  It is a great reference tool.  It is a shame another cannot be done to update it.  I would gladly shell out $30 for a current listing of dragons on cd.  it is also a great space saver as well.

(WOW, I started this BEFORE GHOSTWIND did his post.  Strange on how close they are.  So you can tack this onto Ghostwinds   )


----------



## Olive

Like many others, I do buy dragon but I'm not sure I'll keep buying Dragon. I mostly buy it now to collect.

And like others, I'm pretty sure one reason is that Dungeon is now the killer mag. All the good stuff from Dragon is in Dungeon now, and given that I DM primarily, all the useful stuff is there. 

I have liked some recent articles: the darkness stuff, the home town stuff was all interesting. But my campaign is pretty much set and my players are fairly well along.

Like others, I also hate the fiction, but unlike most fo the others I have an idea about how to fix it! I'm not sure if you've ever read Sep's Story Hour but he writes what is essentially fan fiction in a very interesting way, making a fair amount of in story and footnote reference to game concepts. Far too often the fiction bears no resemblence to the game that I play. With Sep's SH, there is never any doubt how that worked in game terms. Like someone said, I can get normal fiction anywhere, but a quality, game referencing on going serial would really hold my attention.

But the best point is that Dragon alcks direction. I know it's the players magazine, but what does that mean? Dungeon isn't the DMs mag, it's the agazine for time-strapped DMs (and to a lesser extent Greyhawk fans). And that's a very clear focus that the magazine is currently filling extraordinarily well.


----------



## Arbiter of Wyrms

*Disregard this post*

My opinion differs from the majority here.
I subscribe.  I love the magazine.  It gets better all the time.

Stop including fiction.  Ecologies are fine, and when they included fictional accounts from adventurers, that was okay for illustrative purposes, but I don't buy Dragon for the fiction and I never will.  That's what I buy novels and anthologies for.

I like crunch.  That IS what I buy Dragon for, in large part.  Flavorful, theme-driven spells, prestige classes, items, and so forth are great.  Keep them coming.

I don't think that everyhing I read in Dragon is unbalanced, and I do believe that I can judge or house-rule what I want.  I doubt you have the resources to playtest everything thoroughly.

Leave Gygax alone.  He's done his time, and now has other priorities.

Please, please, please, don't squander pages on example NPC's for every presitge class published.  When the NPC is the point of the article, fine, but WotC's books shouldn't waste pages, and neither should Paizo.

Thanks Erik.  I love Dragon and have faith in you.


----------



## Turjan

Hi Erik,

I'm in the crowd with those people who still have a subscription, but are not really convinced whether that's a good expenditure. A few things can't be helped: Dragon is a magazine directed to players, and I'm more on the DM side of the table. That's why I love my Dungeon magazine . On the other hand, with Dragon I often find me just flipping through the magazine when it arrives and put it away afterwards. Maybe, I read "Elminster's Guide" and Nodwick, and that's about it.

I won't repeat all of the reasons other people have aired so far, just stress a few things that are most important in my book.

1) After several years of 3E, I'm just fed up with prestige classes and feats. The days when every new prestige class was something innovative are long gone. I just don't look at them anymore if they don't have a very good reason. A very good reason, I said !

2) In my case, the words half-dragon and half-troll result in immediate reading abort. I like the suggestion from further above to bring more articles of how to play the core material intelligently. This helps the players - and also the not so versed DMs .

3) On first glance, this point concerns Dungeon: I'm one of those people who liked to see Polyhedron go. However, Dragon made a change I did not appreciate at all by becoming a WotC/core D&D only magazine. These pages over pages of advertising material disguised as magazine content rubbed me the wrong way. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against WotC; I like my D&D. But somehow this change devaluated the magazine. Usually you get your ad magazines for free in your mailbox. A magazine with the claim to further gaming should have a broader perspective. It should deliver honest reviews. The narrow focus on WotC material leads to this same old same old feeling. This does not mean that I do not like my campaign flavour stuff .

4) Too much about miniatures. I don't like them and I don't use them. More important, I don't play the miniatures game.

Well, I'm not very fond of Eberron, either, but that's a different cup of tea. I see that many people love that setting, and with a little effort, that stuff can still be useful for me. Maybe, a few conversion notes would be fine .


----------



## Swordsage

Hey Erik

I'll be brutally honest - and I'm way, way in the minority here and I know that: I buy DRAGON for FR content. No FR article and the magazine is usually pretty unnattractive to me. But I've realised that this is the case not because of lack of FR content necessarily, it's lack of flavor content as a whole

I do think that a regular FR presence (other than Ed's infrequent articles - when was the last time Ed got to write an article that was longer than 2 pages sans pictures?) in DRAGON would be a positive selling point for readers, especially if we got coverage on all the other campaign settings as well. I don't mind Greyhawk material (I just re-read one of my old Gord the Rogue novels) and I haven't seen enough of Eberron to make a judgement, but I think campaign flavour is what the magazine needs - whatever the setting.

Big FR articles that weren't 90% crunch such as the Cult of the Dragon article back in #110 and the Wyrms of the North columns were great (and used by many DMs - not just FR ones). Similarly, I fondly recall the great Dragotha article for Greyhawk and other such articles over the many years.  The taleteller in me would rather see a write-up of a +2 sword with a great story and history behind it, than a +5 undead bane, disrupting, thermonuclear, world-destroying blade with no sense of "self" or how to use it in your game. And if we do have to have a +5 undead bane, disrupting, thermonuclear, world-destroying blade, isn't it better if it has that story and background attached to it?

Oh, and again on an FR front, I am absolutely gobsmacked that a much-published author like Eric Boyd has had one, single article printed in DRAGON over the last 6+ years. And I know that hasn't been through lack of trying. Let's crank up the lore - whatever the setting and leave the plusses to their own devices!

Thanks for listening.

-- George Krashos


----------



## Sholari

kennew142 said:
			
		

> Thanks,
> 
> Kenneth New




Hey Ken,

How are the Knights of the Blue Flame doing these days?


----------



## countgray

What inspires me to buy Dragon Magazine?

Sense of wonder. Articles that capture my imagination with the possibilities I can use in my game. Tips on DM'ing, puzzles & riddles to use in my game, interesting characters, cool campaign ideas.

I really love *Forgotten Realms* lore & history & details about unexplored places.

I love stuff about the *planes* and if I hear of articles dealing with the planes or oustiders I will go chasing around to find particular Dragon issues.

I love the articles on Monster Ecologies -- how they fit into the world, secrets you didn't know about the monsters, odd little tidbits about anatomy, what they eat, their origins, history, psychology, relations with other races. If you can supplement such articles with maps of their lairs or graphics illustrating their biology you can really capture my attention.

I do like the Sage advice with helpful advice on using and interpreting rules.

I like tips on painting minis, or on making scenery or battlemaps to use.  I love the battlemap inserts that Dragon sometimes has, I can't get enough of those!

I really do not like new prestige classes & new mechanics. I much prefer *ideas* to rules & mechanics.

Sorry, but I do not care for fiction in Dragon. While I have enjoyed the odd fiction piece or two in Dragon, for the most part I skip them and kind of resent them taking up space that could be better used.

I really enjoyed some of the material supporting older editions.  I got a big kick out of the issue that had articles revisiting all the old campaign settings. I loved the Dark Sun updates you did.  I would love to see more of that in the future.

If you could do a Planescape Setting issue sometime, or even just an occasional planescape article I would jump for joy.

I love the Ed Greenwood Forgotten Realms articles. If you could have an Ed Greenwood article in every issue I would be thrilled.

Languages also thrill me.  You did some articles on Elven & Draconic & other languages awhile back.  I would love to see articles on Orcish language, Celestial, Abyssal, Infernal, Aquan, Sylvan, and other fantasy languages, complete with glossaries and interesting grammar.  If you could commission alphabets/scripts/runes to go with the articles those would be must buys for me.


----------



## philreed

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> We're currently quoting a paid circulation of 65,000. If there are PDFs that get that kind of audience, I'm in the wrong business.




Not yet, give me time. 

From what I can tell, Erik, Dragon's on the right track. The only thing I don't like these days deals with graphics -- and that doesn't affect my enjoyment of any of the articles.


----------



## philreed

One suggestion to get people to try Dragon (and Dungeon) is to drop free, 3-month subscription cards in the DMG and PH.

In the Player's Handbook, include a card that gets the customer a free, 3-month subscription to Dragon. It gets the magazine into more, new hands on a regular basis and helps build your mailing list. Do the same thing (for Dungeon) with the DMG.


----------



## dagger

Crothian sums up my reasons as well in his post. 



			
				Crothian said:
			
		

> It never got used in game.  Some nice ideas and neat articles but I just never have had anyone want to bother looking through them to use anything.  Also, its hard to find something in them.  I'll remember a feat or class but will have no idea which one its from and waste lots of time looking through them.


----------



## Janx

Joe pretty much hit it on the head.

Personally, I quit buying Dragon after issue 300.  I have #179-300 in orig copy AND the Dragon Archive (#1-250).

I quit because after buying for 10 years, I found I had never actually used anything from the magazine.  I read them.  But that was it.

And after 3E came out, Dragon did a reset.  They basically went back and revisited lots of topics that had been done in 2e (when I started, which no doubt had re-invented 1E stuff).

And I never buy Dungeon magazine (ok, I bought one, ten years ago to check it out).

When it comes to game content and adventures, I can write my own. Or in the past, we'd simply buy a WotC book which was the "most official" source of new material.

Janx


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## uraniumdragon

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?




(Caveat: I only read the first page of this 12 page thread.)

1. As to why am allowing my subscription to run out? Two words: d20 Modern. (Okay, maybe that's three words, but there's only one space between them.)

Since d20 Modern has come out, I have all but abandoned *Fantasy* role-playing for the Modern setting. When my Cauldron Adventure Path series runs out, it will be the last D&D setting I DM. 

To me, playing in a Fantasy setting is now boring. Yet another kingdom needing another dragon slayed, yada yada yada. Just another reason to break out my Scrabble tiles to create another character name. Perhaps a Modern setting is just a modernized version of that same fantasy campaign, but I can add more flair to it. I have computers to use, space flight and time-travel to employ. I don't have to design and describe my latest world setting, I have the world as it exists today to work with.

And since PAIZO has decided there is no other game setting in existence other than Dungeons and Dragons 3.5, there is no reason for me to read the magazine. I do not play in any convention gaming anymore. When WotC shafted the Living Verge campaign group by dropping support for Alternity in order to create D&D3.0, the whole organized gaming thing no longer held an appeal. And of course, the only modernized gaming at conventions are card games, and the only card games I enjoy are with a deck of 52, or 54 if I add the Jokers. (Sad day for me when I found out AEC was dropping their Spycraft RPG line for a Spycraft CCG line.)

[to be continued]


----------



## uraniumdragon

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?




(Caveat: I only read the first page of this 12 page thread.)

2. As to what changes to make - that would be to expand out to ALL of WotC's role-playing games. You'll have lots of new material to print when Star Wars Ep3 comes out next year. "XXX" and the two Bourne movies offer lots of ideas.

d20 Modern may not have much of a base (as I am told by the visitors to these boards), but it won't have until an established publisher starts exposing it to the players by offering articles about d20 Modern. _Dungeon Adventures_ did for a while within their _Polyhedron_ section, until the masses complained enough and the magazine is now also "D&D3.5 only". But then it added a backpage column by that grand name in the gaming industry - Wil Wheaton! 

(Yes, that was meant to be sarcastic. Would someone please tell that bad child actor to go back to the Star Trek convention route and get out of D&D. I'd rather see an advertisement for an XBox fantasy game than see his drivel. Which is bad coming from someone who has owned Macs since 1984, played D&D since 1981, and watched Star Trek since its first episode in 1966.) 

Want new customers? Expand your horizons. Offer new content. Limit it to WotC products if you must, but give us something new to read than "50 New things ways to kill with a Longsword".


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## edbonny

Quote:
4) Class Acts. Good idea, poor in execution. Perhaps you can narrow it down to four arch-types, like WotC did for their "Complete" Series. That would give you two pages for each focus (warrior, divine, arcane, and adventurer) and three pages for a new 20 level class. With more space, you can get a little more depth on a subject. 



			
				The_Universe said:
			
		

> Love this idea!



As do I... How about calling it "The More Complete Warrior," "The More Complete Adventurer," etc?

-Ed


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## kigmatzomat

I've posted before but I want to agree with the folks who want to see articles on non-WotC/non-fantasy settings.  d20 requires the PHB/DMG so why not hit all those games that use the PHB and DMG?  And what about Modern?  There are lots of other stuff out there that players would like to encounter.


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## frog

I quit buying Dragon regularly about the time that 2E came out. Quit gaming at that time too. I started back up with 3.0 and have purchased 3 Dragon mags since then. The only one I was happy with was the issue that had updates to some of the old settings (Mystara and Birthright in particular). 

Why don't I buy it? For a lot of the same reasons mentioned here on this thread. I have stopped buying most ANY new "crunch" stuff for my game. Don't need/want it. I have too much as it is. What would I like?

Fiction? - Only if it is like the Voyage of the Princess Ark articles that had a clear tie in to the game.

Prestige Classes? - No new ones, let's try fleshing out the "basic" ones that were given in the DMG. Interesting ideas on how to make the ones I already have something more than just a "power up".

Give the magazine a direction. Someone said that Dungeon => Adventures/Location Specific. Fine, make Dragon => Character/Campaign Specific items. Players AND DM's can use this kind of "imagination spark".

And another thing. Looking back at my old issues (started collecting at #69), I loved stuff on other genres (superhero, spy, sci fi), game systems, game and miniature reviews (real reviews, not adverts disguised as reviews), and articles that I could use to add depth of character to my campaign rather than depth of rules (9 Hells articles come to mind as an example of depth of character...loved that article). 

Oh yeah...the covers were better back then too.


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## DaveMage

I disagree with those who want to see non-fantasy games mentioned.  I prefer to see it stay D&D focused.


----------



## Christopher Lambert

> Re "Faiths of Faerûn", the original idea was to have multiclass paths and only occasional prestige classes, but it switched to prestige classes only because they're supposed to be popular.




Judging from the amount of PrC-bashing going on, it was a bad idea.


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## Arcane Runes Press

Christopher Lambert said:
			
		

> Judging from the amount of PrC-bashing going on, it was a bad idea.




On the other hand, the effects of PrC oversaturation are more likely to be felt here than they are elsewhere. 

ENWorlders are far more supportive of 3rd party product than many people on WotC's own board are, for example. So while people here have seen 830 different PrCs, many others will have only seen what WotC themselves provide.


----------



## IronWolf

DaveMage said:
			
		

> I disagree with those who want to see non-fantasy games mentioned.  I prefer to see it stay D&D focused.




I have to agree with DaveMage on this one.


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## Amy Kou'ai

Okay, here're my somewhat jumbled and incoherent thoughts.  The only two Dragons I own were for the DM Screen, and also the Campaign Settings one.  I have to admit that I've never found Dragon all that interesting, and find Dungeon much more useful -- too much crunch, as a lot of people have noted.

That said, I don't read the fiction, to be honest, but I would if every piece of fiction had some relevance to _my_ game -- as in, if it were the fluff that gave me a cool new NPC or magic item or feat or whatever.  Otherwise, it's not very useful, since it's not really applicable to anything I'm doing.

A lot of people have been talking about battle tactics and so on, and I think that something about brilliant and creative uses for spells, both in and out of battle, would make me very enthused.  Or things like the "Knight's Walk" tactic of using Spring Attack, and that sort of thing.

Oh, yes, and I'm going to buck the trend and say that I love Eberron, and I find Eberron adventures in Dungeon useful and good, but these interviews on creating Eberron and so on -- no.  Give me useful fluff that's helpful for entwining a character within the setting.  I also think that it would be nice if Dragon acted as the vanguard for some of the old settings that people are still interested in.  An article a month, perhaps?

$40 is too much for a magazine, I agree; if it were something like $20 or $25, however, I'd certainly obtain a subscription.

Finally, I think that the litmus test for a good issue of Dragon would go something like: "In ten years, when everyone is playing D&D v5.4123, _will this still be useful_?"  I've heard a lot of people talking about how their old issues of Dragon are still chockful of ideas, and I think that the current nature of Dragon is a bit, well, ephemeral; fluff goes a much longer way toward mitigating this than any amount of crunch does.


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## tassander

Articles in the vein of the guides to survive anything would be great to see in Dragon. Articles that tell you how to include a specific location in your game, not in terms of NPCs and layouts, but in terms of other factors, like, in a theater, how could I use that giant chandelier or the revolving stage in a fight? DCs for skill-checks, appropriate conditions and so on...


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## Dark Psion

I do subscribe to Dragon, but did let my Dungeon subscription run out. Will I let my Dragon run out too??

*Why should a person subscribe?* A very good question, but here is another, what Value is there in subscribing?

There used to be the Dragon annual, for a while there was a free gaming book, but now a subscriber get none of these. In fact a subscriber does not even get the magazine first! The next issue shipped on Nov 30th, but you watch, it will be on shelves Mon or Tues, while us subscribers won't see it for another week. All of my other magazines for this month are already here, for what I pay for Dragon, it should be as well.

How do you add value to a subscription? Aside from bringing back the annual, using the campaign classics issue as a guide, what about making each issue available in a secure pdf format to subscribers the day it is mailed? When we start talking about it on the message boards, it would be free publicity.

*Dragon Content*
I agree with a lot of what was said by others. The current Ecology articles are like reading a high school textbook. The last one was Rakshasa, the most manipulative, deceptive and Machiavellian creature in the game, but this article made them seem _boring_!! "You need a Good and Piercing weapon to hurt them"? No, you need a crossbow, armed with a bolt blessed by a priest true of heart. 

The fiction should be blended into articles like these. Look back at the Van Richten Guides from 2e Ravenloft. The main text was written for the "Character", the side bars were for the "Player".

The Class Acts articles are a good idea, they just need to be expanded beyond the core classes. I have been playing a Fighter, Magic-User, Cleric or Thief for years, give me a reason to play an Artificer, Healer, Wilder or Warlock. There has been an explosion of "new" core classes lately, but they have no support! Here is where we NEED those feats & PrCs.
Show me how to USE all those Prestige Classes! How would a Cleric become an Assassin? What would a Psionic Loremaster look like?  Make me look at a class in a new way.

Here is a good example, there is a new pdf that adapts the Expanded Psionics rules to D20 Modern. Now with d20 Modern rules, the Soul Knife becomes an Advanced class and I would need to to use the core classes first.
But think about that a moment; A Strong Soul Knife, A Fast Soul Knife, A Tough Soul Knife, A Smart Soul Knife, A Dedicated Soul Knife or a Charismatic Soul Knife. It made me rethink what a Soul Knife was AS a class.

Dragon used to support other games in its Ares Section. I discovered Gamma World in an issue of Dragon magazine. How many people have yet to discover half of the games out there?

I also have to agree that Dragon feels "Dumbed Down", there is so much focus on new gamers, but many of us "old timers" have been there, done that, got it enblazoned on a shield a long time ago. How do you reach both? I like the idea of a campaign setting unique to Dragon magazine.

I also have to say that Dragon *NEEDS* to be in Wal Mart! It needs to be on news stands. If I left an issue on the counter at work, how many new gamers would that one issue create? I have had people ask me "What is that magazine?" while reading it. If it was on news stands, they could answer their own questions.


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## Stone Dog

Well, I DO buy Dragon and occasionally Dungeon as well, but there is one thing that I just flip right the hell over.

Add my voice in with the anti fiction crowd.  I have two shelves full of used paperbacks of all manner of genres.  

Other than that I find Dragon to be a useful resource.  Last issue with the sewers and what not was particularly good and if this month keeps up the trend I just might break down and get me a subscription.


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## Mark Oliva

My answers probably won't help much because they probably go against the tide of the majority's wishes, but here goes.

I was a Dragon subscriber for many years and a Dungeon subscriber for a few.

I quit buying Dungeon because I write my own adventures, and I never got anything from Dungeon that I needed or used, although I thought the content was of very good quality.  You probably can't win me for Dungeon, no matter how good you make it.

Dragon is another matter.  I certainly would buy it again, it it had any substantial amount of material that interested me.  The crunchy stuff does not interest me at all.  If I need monsters, spells, prestige classes, etc., I make my own.  When I look at Dungeon, I skip such material, which doesn't leave my a lot to read.

On the other hand, artticles that deal with campaign meta-issues, running and building campaigns, historical lore in campaigns, etc., could draw me back to Dragon, while probably driving hordes of other readers away.

I do look at Dragon now and then (Dungeon never), but I cen't remember the last time I saw a Dragon with something in it that I read rather than looked at.

Mark Oliva in Bavaria
Editor & Webmaster, the Vintyri Project (TM)
[ mailto:info@vintyri.com ]
Internet: [ http://www.vintyri.com/]


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## Brown Jenkin

I don't know whether I am part of your demographic or not. I have been playing D&D since about 1980. I played OD&D and 1e but gave up with 2e. At that time I subscribed to Dragon and loved it. I even kept subscribing for awhile after I stoped playing. When 3e came out I started playing again and loved it. I bought both Dragon and Dungeon. When 3.5 came out I felt betrayed and haven't bought anything 3.5 from anyone and gave up Dragon at the same time. This is not to say that I couldn't be pursuaded to buy again but it will never happen if the magazine remains 3.5 crunch only and a marketing gimik for each new WotC release. Now if I haven't lost you yet I am not asking for droping 3.5 crunch and paying atention to what is new. As other have pointed out many old issues are still usable today because of fluf. So to get me to subscribe I would like to see:

Articles with more fluf, less crunch. I have no need for 10,000+ feats and PrCs.
Articles about how to play, not just how to exploit the rules.
Old ecology articles that described the ecology, with the crunch in sidebars.
Less fiction, few better stoiries that relate to something else in the issue.
Better balance between the WotC settings (Just because Eb is the new thing WotC is pushing doesn't mean you should drop FR and GH).
Critical reviews of new WotC books, not just theme issues pushing them.
Articles and reviews about 3rd party d20/OGL material.

Now I understand you are trying to keep with the current system but as many others have pointed out even those playing 3.5 are fed up with the crunch. I certainly wouldn't ask you to not support the current rules, but there are ways to do it that can attract even those who don't need/want crunch. There is more to D&D than just rules. I would love to have a players magazine that is about the genre in general.


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## barsoomcore

Erik, thanks for as ever including the fans in your process. You made _Dungeon_ into the most valuable resource I have for my games, and I don't know, maybe you can do something with _Dragon_.

jmucchellio summed it up, though. Every time I look at an issue of Dragon, I'm reminded of some article back in issue 87. That's not a BAD thing, in and of itself. I learned how to run this game from Dragon back in the day, and the new DMs coming up could probably use the same advice I got. But I don't need to read it again.

Dragon just doesn't offer me any value. The only issue I've purchased since the 80's is 310 -- so I could get the DM's screens.

I don't NEED the advice Dragon has to offer, I have no interest in proliferating PrC's or feats or spells, I run homebrew campaigns exclusively so every page on a WotC setting is pretty much wasted, and if I want to read fiction I'll get a book.

I will be quite surprised if your revisions to Dragon make me want to purchase it. But I'm probably a long way from your target market...


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## Virel

I say this as a gamer that still plays and DM's 1st ed AD&D and as player of 3E.

Back in the early 80's, Dragon Magazine still had something to offer. The best issues are ~30 to ~80 and some are still decent into the low 100's. Friend of mine has every issue some ~35 to ~240 something or when ever 3e came out. 

I've seen many many Dragon Mag's.

However, as others have said, it's just a rehash of the same old thing. The newer mag's 300+ are sort of like a collection of the worst of the worst from the old mag's. 

Fiction that no one wants, except maybe the editor because that's a few less pages to have to fill. Unbalanced, untested classes etc. 

I've looked a probably 1/2 dozen issues of Dragon since the reformat and getting back into gaming, I've not seen an issue worth the paper it's printed on much less $7.

I don't there is any reason for the magazine to exist in it's current form.


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## Nellisir

I've let my subscription lapse, but I'm still buying Dragon off the newstand.  Not quite the target audience, but what the heck.

I just skimmed the submission guidelines for Dragon and Dungeon (looking for the Creature Catalog info), and it struck me that the Creature Catalog, Backdrops, and Cities of Adventure features in Dungeon just sound so much more interesting than the features in Dragon.

I'll be honest, I loathe advice articles.  The only one I ever liked was that old "high fantasy vs low fantasy" article with the cool illustrations -- you know the one.

What's interesting are articles that add something new to my imagination, and not just a new feat.  I want new places to visit.  Too much of Dragon has fallen into the rut of what has gone before -- I'd like to see the mold broken a little further and the traditions of D&D questioned a bit.  Monte Cook's recent collaborative hardcover, Beyond Countless Doorways, had a new outlook on the planes that I'd love to have seen in Dragon.

OGC.  I suspect this is a corporate policy that you can't do much about, but the day you announce at least one OGC article every two issues, I'll resubscribe.

Urgh.  1:30 AM tooo late for this.  Too many thoughts percolate in my head.  I'll have to sleep on it.

Cheers,
Nell.


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## siege72

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?




I used to, back in my 2nd Edition days. I stopped for a few reasons:

1. Price. Money is tight, and spending even $40 for a year's subscription is hard to justify. Why? Because for the same price, I could purchase a WotC hardcover -- after reading reviews online, so I know exactly what I'm getting. 

2. Technology. Back in the old days, the magazine was the only way to find out about rules, new products, conventions, etc. I've been online a long time, and found that it's faster and easier to post something to a message board (here, WotC's site, LJ communities, etc) than actually look it up in the "dead tree" version. 

3. Coverage. I'm not using Eberron or 3.5 -- I'm happy with 3E and the Realms. I'm not sure how much use I'd get at this point.

4. Balance. The material in Dragon is notorious for being... *ahem* untested.



> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?




1. Drop the fiction. I've read some of it.. when I was young and bored. Now I'm neither, so the fiction goes unread. (I know, beating a dead horse) 

2. Keep the comics limited in size. No more than two pages total, please!

3. Consider the historical perspective. Dragon and Dungeon are unlike most other magazines, in that their owners keep them and use them as a resource. In all likelihood, the articles you publish now will be re-read for many years (and possibly many _editions_!)

Several types of articles don't age well. Product previews, computer game reviews (and conversions), and convention schedules all become wasted space in a few months. 

4. OCR'd PDF files would be a godsend. I do a lot of my campaign/adventure planning on my PC, and desk space is very limited. Being able to search, cut and paste, and not have to leave my desk to find a missing issue would be a major timesaver. I wouldn't even mind if the PDFs came out several months after the magazine. (Also, it would need to be DRM-free. I'm not running Windows on my computer.)

5. If a PDF is outside the scope of things, what about a digest format? A semiannual "best of" issue with the content playtested and revised would be very useful. I'm not even concerned with the format; something similar to Palladium's "Rifter" supplement (perfect bound, non-glossy pages) would be useful.

6. An index. Between the dead tree issues I own, and the PDFs from the CD-Rom archive, there's too much material to sort through. At this point, it's faster and more convenient to use Google and search through a hundred possible matches than it is to sort through even two dozen magazines. There was a fan-made index years ago, but I can't find an updated copy.

Thanks for listening!!


----------



## The Other Librarian

I've read Dragon on and off since the days of Wormy.  After a long lapse I started buying on a per issue basis when 3ed hit.  I have bought neither Dragon nor Dungeon since Polyhedron went awol.  

 I think people drop the magazine after the rush of the new 3e for much the same reason that 3rd party publishers died out:  A glut of the same old same old.  You can only get so much crunch before you realize you will never use much of it in game.  the problem is compounded when you've read Dragon for so long - things inevitably move in cycles and you see the same kinds of things rehashed.

 The things I tend to like are regular columns, like Monte Cook's or Gary Gygax's columns.  Guys like that will always have something interesting to say, and can change things up, address topics as the mood strikes them, while still having the familiarity factor that a good regular column has.

 Monsters and magic items are a staple and should be, but I prefer fluffier to crunchier.  I liked the city series that Dragon did detailing historical snapshots of places that get me thinking of new ways to imagine a campaign.  It's still D&D, but it takes us out of those old western European medieval tropes.  Ditto with the Red Sails/Dark Ages spread in 290.

 Frankly, if either Dungeon or Dragon picked up Polyhedron again, or at least started doing mini-games and covering other d20 games, iI'd subscribe in a hasted free action.  But I think I'm probably in the minority here.


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## Azul

I used to buy Dragon religiously back in the early-mid 80s until I moved away from 1e to other rpgs.  3e brought me back but I've been mostly dissappointed with what Dragon has become.  Why?

Fundamentally, the current magazine bores me.  As several people have mentioned, the writing seems forced into a cookie-cutter dry as a bone template.  It reads like a grab-bag of uninspiring, crunch-heavy material.

To be fair, I think it is simply emulating the "appeal to the widest possible audience" approach that WotC has adopted in their rulebooks.  The catch is that Dragon *isn't a rulebook* and it shouldn't read like one.  It shouldn't be a grabbag of underdevelopped and uninspiring crunch.

Dragon should be a magazine that makes gamers want to game.  What would make me want to buy Dragon again?

First and foremost, make Dragon about ideas and inspiration.  Flavour material should equal or outweigh any new mechanics.  I would much rather read five pages of fluff about single mechanical concept (e.g. a prestige class, a monster, an artifact, whatever), perhaps even including a page or two of flavour fiction that gives me an "in game" feel for how this would fit in to my games, than read 5 pages of back to back crunch with flimsy flavour.  Even if I never use the item in question, all that flavour material will get my creative juices flowing and help inspire me.  In the worst case, it will be a far more enjoyable read than yet-more-bland-crunch.

I already have several thousand pages of dry crunch-heavy, relatively well-organized rulebooks.  I barely manage to use most of the crunch I get from WotC.  Why in the world would I want to buy a monthly, dry, crunch-heavy, helter-skelter collection of material?  All I get in the end is a big, disorganized mess of drab crunch.  Even when some mechanical element interests me, I can't find a bloody thing because magazines make lousy reference material.

I want Dragon to give me a collection of cool gaming ideas along with the necessary crunch to support these ideas.  The crunch must serve the fluff because RPGs are all about the fluff.  The rules serve the story, not vice-versa.  While WotC's rulebooks have to be rule-centric by their very nature, any additional material beyond rulebooks (like Dragon) should be inspirational and informative in nature, not mechanics-heavy.

I do NOT want to read articles that have nothing to do with playing the RPG in some way.  That means I have zero interest in anything relating to the miniatures games, to computer RPGs, or to anything that is not roleplaying.  I can find better fiction elsewhere.  I can find magazines dedicated to computer games elsewhere.  I can find book and film reviews elsewhere.

I do NOT want to read a giant ad for WotC's next product.  I refuse to spend my money buying ads trying to sell me products.  I don't mind seeing ads in Dragon.  I absolute hate seeing "articles" that are nothing more than marketing for upcoming or current products.  Previews of future material and enhancements to WotC products belong on WotC's web site, not in any magazine I'm willing to pay for.  In fact, their web site includes the "In the Works" preview section which does a fine job of informing their customers about future products.  I want to be able to open a Dragon magazine a year later and still find all the articles in there to be useful, not find articles that talk about books that I bought (or did not buy) months ago.

Supplemental material that enriches existing WotC material is fine in moderation, but I as a customer always want to feel that I got something worthwhile for my money.  An article that adds richness to the Realms or Eberron is cool and will still be useful when I open that Dragon a year later.  A 3 page preview or a ADHD-inspired collection of random crunchy bits that feel like scraps that were editted out of the final document is not worth paying for.

Anything relating to the miniatures game or D&D themed computer games feels like an ad because frankly, the vast majority of your readers buy the D&D minis to use in their D&D games and those who play the computer games do it as a seperate hobby.  Yes, there is a community of mini game players and computer players but they are not the main audience of the magazine (and perhaps they should have their own magazine in the case of mini gamers - PC gamers definitely have plenty of other magazines).  To the majority of your readers, those are wasted pages and thus another reason not to buy Dragon.  Stay on topic - RPGs.  Roleplayers who play D&D buy Dragon.  Cater to them and always focus on enhancing their gaming experience.

Also, if you touch on WotC's stuff, then an occasional article touching on other d20 fantasy settings might be nice once in a while (e.g. Scarred Lands, Kalamar, Iron Kingdoms).  Paizo isn't WotC, even if they do have a close relationship.  Dragon should reflect the interests of D&D players, not just WotC's marketing department.  D&D players use the products of other d20 publishers too.  A nod to that fact in Dragon would be nice once in a while.

The issue of fiction was brought up.  I think independent fiction (i.e. short stories) don't belong in Dragon because it isn't related to roleplaying.  I can buy fantasy fiction if I want fantasy fiction.  I buy Dragon for my roleplaying hobby so I want articles related to roleplaying.  However, I think chunks of fiction should be interspersed into articles (or perhaps be used to lead into an article or finish an article) to help illustrate and enrich the descriptive text and crunch.  Flavour is always good.  Use fiction as a tool to help make your articles come to life instead of presenting fiction as a stand-alone segment.

Theme issues are fine if they are done right.  A random collection of articles on a general topic is very hit or miss.  Either the reader already likes the topic and thus likes the issue or he doesn't and feels the issue is a waste of his time.  On the other hand, a theme issue where the articles are geared around inspiring the reader to want to use this theme in his campaign... now that is interesting.  Don't just give me a bunch of articles about demon-related stuff.  Give me a tour of the Abyss and a feel for its inhabitants and then present me with some cool ideas relating to demons, and maybe so demonic lairs or mini-adventures involving demonic themes.

Including an occasional adventure (say one every other issue) could be cool, especially if it fit with the theme of the issue.  Here is a cool theme, here are some cool ideas about that theme and here is an adventure showing you how it all comes together when you use this theme in your game.  Linking it all together would make such adventures different from the ones in Dungeon.  They wouldn't just be adventures but would also be a way of illustrating the ideas presented in the rest of the issue.  Dungeon should remain the primary "adventure-filled" magazine but it should not be taboo to have one in Dragon once in a while when it makes sense.

Take chances.  Dare to have personality and flavour.  For every person who is turned off by an article with personality, odds are several others read it and thought it was cool.  Even if an article bombs, at least people remember it and reacted to it because it wasn't bland and forgettable.

Issues of Dragon prior to issue 100 had plenty of memorable articles on a wide variety of topics.  Often you could read 10 pages of really cool gaming stuff and barely see any stats.  The current magazine rarely has memorable articles... instead it has inoffensive articles.  Templates are for monsters, not Dragon magazine articles.  I don't want to read yet another variation on the same old thing with a mild twist.  For example - Yet another prestige class... sigh... ok, make me care about it and want to use it!  I dare you.  Make it exciting.  Not just mechanically powerful, but make me want to roleplay one.  Do that in the space you would would otherwise use to present 3 other bland prestige classes and I will be much more interested in buying Dragon.

I suppose in the end, I want Dragon to grab me, make me pay attention and most of all make me think about my game in new ways.  No forumlaic crunch, nothing unrelated to roleplaying D&D and no marketing material masquerading as genuine articles (ads are ads, articles are articles, preview articles are just ads).

That's it in a nutshell - Dragon should make me want to roleplay D&D and should be about roleplaying D&D.  Nothing more and nothing less.


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## Glyfair

PJ-Mason said:
			
		

> 1)I've only ever read one story arc that i particularly liked (the Fool Wolf stories). By and large they left me cold, or i just didn't read them. Chalk up another anti-fiction vote. I'm surprised at the majority of that sentiment. Pleasantly so.




Odd, I'd have to say Niall of the Far Travels was the only fiction I read on a regular basis.  I would probably read the fiction if it helped flesh out a setting and was tied into a theme issue, or if it was from a popular fantasy writer (for example, George R.R. Martin's preview), as long as there was some D&D tie-in to the story.


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## Swiftbrook

*What to Change/Add*

From someone who *doesn't* subscribe and cherrypicks issues:

Have Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Eberron as regular features.  1 every 3 months would be great, 1 every 4 months, with the 4th being 'other' settings would be ok as well.  1-3 is best -- 4 per year, but *in addition* have an 'other' setting article every other month -- 6 per year.  That should hit most settings every few years.
Detail a small local that everyone has.  A gatehouse, pub, herb shop, farm house, etc.  Detail 3 or 4 NPCs, include a small map and a visual of the place and people.  3-4 pages tops including art/maps.  Something that can be dropped into any setting.
When including options for Greyhawk or Eberron's Living campaigns, get the RPGA's approval before publishing so that the material really can be used in the campaigns.
Include a fan speaks back page.  Fans can talk about what they're doing in their setting.  How they pull this from the Realms and that from Ravenloft and make it all work.
an *Online Index*
Subscribers receive theirs before the newstands

-Swiftbrook


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## Dragonhelm

Several good ideas, Azul!



			
				Azul said:
			
		

> To be fair, I think it is simply emulating the "appeal to the widest possible audience" approach that WotC has adopted in their rulebooks.




Which seems to water down that material at times.  Take the shugenja, for example.  What they did with it in Complete Divine was okay, but doesn't compare to the L5R version, just because of feel.




> First and foremost, make Dragon about ideas and inspiration.  Flavour material should equal or outweigh any new mechanics.  I would much rather read five pages of fluff about single mechanical concept (e.g. a prestige class, a monster, an artifact, whatever), perhaps even including a page or two of flavour fiction that gives me an "in game" feel for how this would fit in to my games, than read 5 pages of back to back crunch with flimsy flavour.  Even if I never use the item in question, all that flavour material will get my creative juices flowing and help inspire me.  In the worst case, it will be a far more enjoyable read than yet-more-bland-crunch.




Agreed and agreed!

And, if you want to appeal to a broader audience, you can follow the Monster Manual IIIs example and show how various rules bits work in Greyhawk, the Forgotten Realms, and Eberron - plus have notes for developing it in your own campaign.





> I want Dragon to give me a collection of cool gaming ideas along with the necessary crunch to support these ideas.  The crunch must serve the fluff because RPGs are all about the fluff.  The rules serve the story, not vice-versa.  While WotC's rulebooks have to be rule-centric by their very nature, any additional material beyond rulebooks (like Dragon) should be inspirational and informative in nature, not mechanics-heavy.




Agreed!

I often think that story and adventure comes second to mechanics these days.  I see more posts about balance issues than I do about adventure, and what everyone's group did last game session.  It's time for a change.



> I do NOT want to read articles that have nothing to do with playing the RPG in some way.  That means I have zero interest in anything relating to the miniatures games, to computer RPGs, or to anything that is not roleplaying.  I can find better fiction elsewhere.  I can find magazines dedicated to computer games elsewhere.  I can find book and film reviews elsewhere.




Agreed.  I know that these types of articles are included at times to appeal to a broader audience, but it seems to me that the greatest RPG magazine out there should focus on RPGs.  




> However, I think chunks of fiction should be interspersed into articles (or perhaps be used to lead into an article or finish an article) to help illustrate and enrich the descriptive text and crunch.  Flavour is always good.  Use fiction as a tool to help make your articles come to life instead of presenting fiction as a stand-alone segment.




You might want to consider a bit of a reverse approach to this as well, where you have fiction, but end it in a section on game stats to support the fiction.




> Take chances.  Dare to have personality and flavour.  For every person who is turned off by an article with personality, odds are several others read it and thought it was cool.  Even if an article bombs, at least people remember it and reacted to it because it wasn't bland and forgettable.




Agreed!  I think you can mix it up some, too, by having a few flavor articles interspersed with more generic articles.  



> For example - Yet another prestige class... sigh... ok, make me care about it and want to use it!  I dare you.  Make it exciting.  Not just mechanically powerful, but make me want to roleplay one.  Do that in the space you would would otherwise use to present 3 other bland prestige classes and I will be much more interested in buying Dragon.




One example fairly recently that I thought was good was the article on the Cormyr prestige classes.  It's been years since I've played in the Realms, but that article made me want to again, and in an area I've never played in before.



> I suppose in the end, I want Dragon to grab me, make me pay attention and most of all make me think about my game in new ways.




Amen.

It should also focus not only on newer gamers, but also provide something for established gamers as well.  After years of roleplaying, it's hard to find something that just grabs you.


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## dpmcalister

uraniumdragon said:
			
		

> (Sad day for me when I found out AEC was dropping their Spycraft RPG line for a Spycraft CCG line.)



Although I'm not part of the Spycraft RPG Design Team, I can say with certainty that this isn't happening. The Spycraft CCG is out and Spycraft v2 (the RPG) is being released next year. So, it (and by default, Living Spycraft) will be around for a long time yet.


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## Psychic Warrior

Azul said:
			
		

> I used to buy Dragon religiously back in the early-mid 80s until I moved away from 1e to other rpgs.  3e brought me back but I've been mostly dissappointed with what Dragon has become.  Why?
> 
> _snip excellent points they are all correct and I agreed with every single one of them_
> 
> I suppose in the end, I want Dragon to grab me, make me pay attention and most of all make me think about my game in new ways.  No forumlaic crunch, nothing unrelated to roleplaying D&D and no marketing material masquerading as genuine articles (ads are ads, articles are articles, preview articles are just ads).
> 
> That's it in a nutshell - Dragon should make me want to roleplay D&D and should be about roleplaying D&D.  Nothing more and nothing less.




Azul - you have stated my feelings exactly.  Dragon, back in the day, had some outstanding articles (anyone remember A History of a Game that Failed?) that were focused on role playing, so-called 'fluff' with little game mechanics.  Read issues 30 to about 99, they have some of the best rpg ariticles that are still relevant today.  Best of Dragon 1-3 still get pulled out by me on occasion to re-read an article on a paladin's faith, the cultures of the demi-humans and a host of other topics.  That is a stunning display of longevity.  

I don't want ot see the elimination of all rules-heavy articles but it seemed, when I stopped buying Dragon around issue 300, that I would scream if I saw another prestige class or feat heavy article.  If you really want to do stuff like previews (again Azul hits it bang on - previews are bloated ads and nothing more) give us ecology articles for monsters in the new book.  Or detail a place setting in it.  Something other than 'omg- this roxxors!' which is all preview articles are nowadays.


----------



## PJ-Mason

Glyfair said:
			
		

> Odd, I'd have to say Niall of the Far Travels was the only fiction I read on a regular basis.  I would probably read the fiction if it helped flesh out a setting and was tied into a theme issue, or if it was from a popular fantasy writer (for example, George R.R. Martin's preview), as long as there was some D&D tie-in to the story.




Well i guess i'd prefer no fiction but, if it MUST be there, i agree that it should tie into an article. Not just fiction pertaining to a specific setting, but something tied into a specific article, not just the theme of the issue. 


Topic Change: One theme books generally don't appeal to me because they are largely hit and miss. I'm not going to spend money on a subscription for a year (or more) if there is a good chance that several issues will be wasted money. Thats irratating. Its far more responsiblle of me to get a subscription to a comic shop for 20% off and only buy the 3 or 4 issues that appeal to me, rather than buy 12 "in-the-dark" issues for 50% off.

Variety is the key for me. An issue with many themes and different articles can only mean good things and can't really piss off anyone that is fair-minded. An issue all about one thing will automatically alienate a whole slew of people that will invariably dislike the theme. Another thing about themes...if you HAVE to create an entire issue with, say, undead...alright. But let that be it for undead that year! I don't want to see undead articles in next months issue or the one after that. 

I guess when it boils down to it...its all about balance to me. Dragon Mag needs better balance. I don't mean balanced game mechanics (though thats always good!), but a balance between mechanics/fluff, balance between specific settings and generic material, and......no fiction.


----------



## Creamsteak

For the fiction/not fiction argument: I kinda of liked the small booklet that came with Eberron: Shadows of the Last War. Little inserts like that might be a better solution than spending 8 pages full of stories.


----------



## Eremite

Dragonhelm said:
			
		

> (snip) And, if you want to appeal to a broader audience, you can follow the Monster Manual IIIs example and show how various rules bits work in Greyhawk, the Forgotten Realms, and Eberron - plus have notes for developing it in your own campaign. (snip)




I think that there is a real opportunity for Dragon to give examples of how to use old and new material in the D&D campaign worlds as Dragonhelm has suggested.

Of course, can I make a strong recommendation that such articles aren't handed out to people who aren't particularly fond of the setting or who have no knowledge of it (eg: the recent Sharn web enhancement was very well written and a good piece of design work... but it lacked a great deal of consistency with already published Eberron/Sharn material).

Old material can also get this treatment. What about an article on the Blood War? Why are tanar'ri immune to electricity (surely there is some reason other than just lazy design... nahhh, it was probably just lazy design)? What about revisiting the old connections between night hags, larvae and liches? Hmmm, fiendish amulets again perhaps?

Then again, there is no point having good content if there is still no index. I think this has been a general theme of many of the posts to this thread so I'm sure the message is getting through.


----------



## jshelky

Almost Forgot, I don't know about everyone else, but as much as I enjoyed being able to read the catalog section about upcoming products a few months back I didn't appreciate loosing a huge chunk of the magazine to it.  Exspecially since 75% was for products that were already out.  If I didn't currently have a sub or once my sub expires I would never again waste the money on an issue that said it had the WOTC product catalog in it.


----------



## thundershot

Wow... I can't believe how much feedback this thread has received in such a short time.. 

I AM a Dragon subscriber, and I freely admit that I do NOT read the fiction. I never have read the fiction. And I likely won't ever read the fiction. To me (and apparently others), the fiction is a waste of space for a gaming magazine.

The only other thing that hasn't been said several times, is that you should try to get the Order of the Stick as a monthly comic. The comics are good, but haven't been the same since KODT. 



Chris


----------



## Amy Kou'ai

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> For the fiction/not fiction argument: I kinda of liked the small booklet that came with Eberron: Shadows of the Last War. Little inserts like that might be a better solution than spending 8 pages full of stories.




Actually, that was kinda cool, but for me, only so because it actually had to do with the adventure.

...hmmmmmmm.  Maybe if the fiction in Dragon were tied up with the adventures in Dungeon?  It would be really nifty if I could hand out something to my players as the "prologue" to the adventure, or something, before their characters factor into it.


----------



## Jeff Wilder

jshelky said:
			
		

> Almost Forgot, I don't know about everyone else, but as much as I enjoyed being able to read the catalog section about upcoming products a few months back I didn't appreciate loosing a huge chunk of the magazine to it.  Exspecially since 75% was for products that were already out.  If I didn't currently have a sub or once my sub expires I would never again waste the money on an issue that said it had the WOTC product catalog in it.




The catalog section is in addition to the regular magazine content, not instead of.  There's no loss of content in those issues with catalogs.


Jeff


----------



## Muad'dib Pendragon

*Delivery time*

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet (no patience to read through 10+ pages)... As an active subscriber of both Dungeon and Dragon, one thing that will affect my decision to  re-up is delivery time.  I live in Europe, but I'm military with an APO address.  It kills me that I can go to the base bookstore and see the latest mags a full 7-10 days before I actually receive mine in the mail.  I've broached this with Paizo, but no resolution.

And to second others' requests: 

annual index in December issue
1-page world specific stuff, a la the monthly class breakouts
more ecology
theme/world-related fiction, or no fiction at all
more consistent comics
objective d20 product reviews


----------



## Azul

Amy Kou'ai said:
			
		

> Actually, that was kinda cool, but for me, only so because it actually had to do with the adventure.
> 
> ...hmmmmmmm.  Maybe if the fiction in Dragon were tied up with the adventures in Dungeon?  It would be really nifty if I could hand out something to my players as the "prologue" to the adventure, or something, before their characters factor into it.




The idea of tying fiction to an adventure is kind of cool.  The idea of tying fiction in Dragon to an adventure in Dungeon... ehh... that I'm not keen on.  Keep both items in a single magazine or you are essentially just arm-twisting people to buy additional product to fully enjoy their original purchase.  Not cool.  It smacks of cross-marketing rather than focussing on maximizing the audience's benefit.

Now putting together a magazine with a theme, some flavour material about the theme, a moderate amount of relevant and related crunch, an adventure that uses all these new ideas and some fiction that ties into the adventure (e.g. adventurers in the adventure or perhaps some backstory material)...  that's interesting.

Might be too focussed though, but then some of the best Dragon magazines of the past were that focussed.  Anyone remember issues 75-76?  The two issue long theme describing the Nine Hells and devils in great detail? Awesome issues that saw use in my campaigns for years.


----------



## Azul

Zaukrie said:
			
		

> I thought this idea was interesting:
> 
> "I'd almost like to see Dragon be the D&D National Geographic. I'd like to see articles on historical settings, unique places, creatures and races, etc. Ideas are what drives the game IMO, not new PrC's and feats. "
> 
> Think about articles on magical, mystical places, the people that live there and how they are affected by what is going on around them. There are a million rules books, we need ideas (or at least I do) that can be used in many ways. I think back to articles on fantasy castles, the Nine Hells, AKA, Ecology, Sheens, you get the idea.




That is a *very* cool idea on how to present Dragon.  Assuming it was done even half-way decently, I would buy that magazine.  I would subscribe that magazine.


----------



## mhacdebhandia

A few thoughts, though I do buy the magazine from my FLGS:

*1.* Articles about the various D&D settings - _Planescape_ in particular - need not be so tied to that setting as to be useless. For example, one of the best ways I can think of to get the attention of _Planescape_ fans would be to publish articles on planar sites with the coolness and flavour of the places detailed in the old products. They can be completely original locations - but if they're flavourful like Balefire, the City of Lanterns (#322), and if they took some of the material in both core and supplemental products and used the site as a way to demonstrate how to use that material in your game, perhaps by quickly sketching the relations between two or three site-appropriate recently-published races, or by presenting an organisation which makes good and significant use of a recent prestige class or two, then _Dragon_ is both promoting recent releases, integrating "crunch" and "fluff", and satisfying those who need ideas of either the mechanical or flavour kinds.

Little asides like mentioning one or two factions which might have a presence in the location would bring a smile to the face of fans of _Planescape_ without detracting from its usefulness to Third Edition games. The same principles can be applied to other locations - an article about an interesting location with sidebars or boxes explaining how to adapt it to a Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, or Eberron campaign (which power groups in the setting might be interested in it, for example) would be good

(I realise that some of these things are already done; I suppose my point is that I'd like to see it continue.)

*2.* Articles about, for example, monster class progressions for several related creatures could probably have the number of monsters covered cut in half, and fill up the rest of the space with a short discussion of what it would be like to roleplay such a being alongside (relatively) normal PCs - how they would be received by regular people, why they might be adventuring, and (again) how they might fit into the various campaign settings. If at all possible I think that shying away from definite statements and instead presenting various options or possibilities for such things might be better - perhaps that ogre adventuring with the paladin might be the object of intense curiosity, rather than of fear or distrust; he is with a paladin, after all.

*3.* In general I think sidebars or notes adapting generic articles to the various campaign settings both old and new is very important. Even when you don't play in those settings, advice on how to place various things into your game can give homebrewers ideas for how they could do the same.

*4.* Winning Races is an interesting feature, but it could end up very stale if too many of the races covered end up as anthropomorphised animals. As cool as it is to bring the grippli and lupins back, I'd also like to see more creatures based on myth and folklore like the cyclopeans, or relatively distinctive and original like the illumians. One thing Winning Races should never be is a simple repository of subraces of core races - no elves, no dwarves, no halflings, no gnomes. Finally, and yet again, sidebars on adapting these new creatures to published settings is important.

*5.* Much as it makes the lists in my signature a little dull, I approve of restricting the number of prestige classes in each issue. I wouldn't, however, be draconian about it - an article on a complete organisation like an evil cult or a knightly order or a magical guild which could be supported by a worthwhile prestige class with flavour and utility shouldn't fall victim to the fact that Gaining Prestige already has an entry lined up for it.

On that note, an extra page added to any Gaining Prestige article that fleshes out the flavour of the prestige class presented would be greatly appreciated. Aside from the inevitable request for setting adaption advice, it would also be nice to have a description of one or more organisations (or whatever is appropriate), roleplaying advice, and so on. Prestige classes need more depth, I think, than simply a description of what the class is about, who is likely to take it, and what place they have in an adventuring party. The bowman charger in issue #325 has a little of such information, but the feature could definitely use more.

*6.* I remember that you said the Class Acts features had something of a dearth of submissions in the beginning, leading to something of a limited range of subjects, but I'll add my voice to those saying that what a druid carries in her backpack is nothing I want to see in the magazine. I really like the idea of the feature, though, and the variety of entries each month is much better than one issue with magic items for each class, the next with flaws for each class, the next with advice on feat and spell selection over 20 levels for each class, and so on. Mixing it up is excellent, but each class should have something genuinely worth reading each month.


----------



## kauchakwa

1. Why don't you buy the magazine?

I did have a subscription to Dragon (and Dungeon) a couple years ago, and a recent subscriber. I had to make a choice of where I was going to spend my money as I couldn't maintain both subscriptions. I chose Dungeon because I enjoy the modules, maps, and other useful information to being a DM, though I DM a home game rarely, about once a month, but DM Living Greyhawk games regularly. Dragon is for the player and I am a player, but I've barely used the feats, classes, and spells in 3.5, plus all the Complete Books, so I'm just not interested in any more of the crunchy stuff; and, besides, it's not useable in LG, which is the campaign that I play the most, or all since I don't play in any home campaigns.

2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?

I don't know. It's a choice between $40 a year on a magazine or 1-2 additional hardbound books for a campaign setting. Maybe, and it's a big maybe, if you printed player-based campaign setting info without all the crunchy bits, more story, then I might show interest. But, really, you're doing a great job with Dungeon and that fits my main interests.


----------



## Ace

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I'm about half-way through a much needed vacation, so of course I'm sitting here thinking about work.
> 
> I know many of you _do_ buy Dragon regularly, and for that I send you a hearty holdiay cheer and a simple statement: thanks.
> 
> But I also know that many of you don't buy Dragon, and I'd like to know why. Over my 20+ years as a D&D player, I've had "on" periods and "off" periods with the magazine, so I know what sorts of things went into my personal decision not to buy Dragon, but I'd like to know yours.
> 
> Why no Dragon ?
> 
> Well for me its two things
> 
> The group of players I prefer to game with has a very conservative DM -- he uses the three core book and thats about it. No MM2 NO FF -- absolutely no 3rd party stuff except for 1 Avalanche supplement I know he read for his Arabian Knights/Babalyonian game (but didn't actually use any of this mind) and I think maybe Swashbuckling adventures -- He owns maybe 5 or 7 D&D books in total. While I am allowed to bring in .alt stuff (even 3rd party) I haven't seen the need to other than a feat or two -- Oh yeah I think he will buy Black Company D20 too
> 
> I don't DM D&D at all -- I sold most all of my books back when 3.5 was released -- While I may run again I have enough free and legal web material to run dozens of games -- In fact I have 3 or so disks of crunch previews, web books, SRD's, web board posts, my D20 weekly and Pyramid Archive copies, homebrew -- this is quite enough for my needs
> 
> If I end up running D&D again I may end up buying Dragon just to have fun reading it
> 
> My group plays several systems (Buffy when I run it, Streetfighter and L5R roll n keep) sticking to one game for a year until the campaign is done -- we aren't really a D&D group and don't need an infusion of stuff every month
> 
> Also on a personal note -- gaming is a budgeted item for me -- I have (X) USD per month to spend -- If I buy something I either collect that line (Eden currently -- GURPS at one time) or really  expect to use it - Dragon is a decent enough  value at $7 it is NOT overpriced  but I could also buy 2 reaper figs for the same sum and I would really rather have the figs
> 
> If I get back into D&D full time I probably will take Dragon -- its a good read


----------



## Erik Mona

jshelky said:
			
		

> Almost Forgot, I don't know about everyone else, but as much as I enjoyed being able to read the catalog section about upcoming products a few months back I didn't appreciate loosing a huge chunk of the magazine to it.  Exspecially since 75% was for products that were already out.  If I didn't currently have a sub or once my sub expires I would never again waste the money on an issue that said it had the WOTC product catalog in it.




To be clear, that catalogue did not come at the expense of other content, but rather was added to the magazine independent of the other content. I don't think that fact was as clearly stated as it could have been, but it is critically important. Paizo will not swap editorial pages for these catalogues.

--Erik


----------



## Algolei

I let my subscription lapse because the magazine no longer applies to me.  I play AD&D.


----------



## Ogrork the Mighty

I agree with some of the other posters re: the issue of fluff vs. crunch. I'd much rather see some well-written fluff than some silly "creature-with-wings" template. My perception is that the older Dragon issues had more fluff and were better written whereas the current magazine are all about feats, classes, and statted-out NPCs. I dunno if it's true or not, but that's my perception. When I see a Dragon mag on the shelf at the FLGS, I take a look at the cover and I'm not at all interested in the "NEW feats! NEW classes! NEW blah blah blah." I'd rather see the history of X, or the Order of X, or Legends of the X.

But maybe that's just me.


----------



## jeff37923

1. Why don't you buy the magazine?

I don't buy the magazine because it no longer provides support for games that are not published by WotC. Dragon used to be a general-purpose support magazine for gamers. You could find articles covering not only D&D, but Traveller, Call of Cthulhu, and Runequest. When I do buy the magazine, it is only from my local used book store or at a two for a dollar sale at my local game store. One of the reasons why I subscribe to Pyramid Magazine (Steve Jackson Games), is that they do support other games than those produced by their parent company (I got some great magic items for DnD3.5 from an article in Pyramid).

2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?

Start supporting games other than ones created by WotC. As a suggestion, include an article for T20 Traveller, its a d20 system game and wouldn't stray too far from the products that WotC is producing (Hell, one of the best articles for Traveller, IMHO, came from issue #51 of Dragon called "The Miller Milk Bottle" by Marc Miller). 

As an aside, the problems that I find with Dragon magazine are the same ones that I find with the current incarnation of White Dwarf magazine. Both magazines used to be for industry support of a hobby when now they seem to be published for individual corporate support.


----------



## Teflon Billy

I am going to sound _really_ petty here...

I don't buy Dragon because that *Westeros* iassue was so incredibly bad that it mde me swear off the whole magazine.

I love _A Song of Ice and Fire_, and Dragon's treatment of it was as terrible an effort. It was almost literally nothing more than descriptions of ASoIaF characters and situations, coupled with nonsensicle stock D&D shoehorned in there.

So despite having never exhibited _any_ spellcasting ability, Danaerys can now cast _Flaming Sphere_.

And despite showing _no_ Paladinlike qualities whatsoever, Stannis Baratheon is a Paladin (Capable of healing the sick and curing disease no less)!


----------



## ashockney

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> So, if you're _not_ a regular customer of Dragon magazine (let's say you buy fewer than three issues annually), please take a minute or two to answer the following questions.
> 
> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?
> 
> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?




First, thank you for being actively involved in your work, and the gaming community.  

I'm a long time subscriber, but have off-on periods.  

Crothian said it best, it's not in the game.  Lots of pages, interesting stuff to read, but it hasn't been getting into my game.  Dungeon consistently gets into my game.  In it's heyday, I would read Dragon and want to immediately put something from it into the next adventure.  I don't think the themes do any favors.  The prevalance of info available through other sources is also a challenge.  At the end of the day, however, a compelling article, with game-related content, will immediately be taken for use.


----------



## Olive

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> I am going to sound _really_ petty here...
> 
> I don't buy Dragon because that *Westeros* iassue was so incredibly bad that it mde me swear off the whole magazine.




While I agree that the issue was pretty bad, I just don't get this sort of thing.


----------



## Umbra

I'm not interested in new feats.
I'm not interested in new PRC's.
I have enough crunch.

I am interested in fluff supported with minimum (low admin) crunch.

One of my favorite books purchased in the last few years is A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe

To quote from RPGNow, "It contains a massive amount of game-usable information about the medieval period and focuses on how D20 magic could change a traditional medieval setting."

It is brimming with stuff I can use in my game e.g. some guild memberships may not be gained except by marriage to a member's child or being a member's child.  How many adventures/problems can be generated for a party from that simple fact which I hadn't known?  _Dremk the fighter is the fourth son of member of the merchant guild and has three families trying to foist their daughters onto him so they can gain membership to the guild._

I would buy Dragon if it had more articles examining historical or contemporay cultures, social structures and institutions and how they may be interpreted in various game worlds (high, low, pulp, etc).  I would also like articles on how different aspects of the rules can interact with each other to create different types of fluff (high, low, political, etc).

My favorite articles from earlier Dragon's (which I used to buy religiously) were discussions about the alignment system, or how war affects the country-side, or how an Order of knights would operate, or what's happening at a monastery over the course of a day/year.  I suppose I don't want to read historical texts but like potted versions with lots of hooks.


----------



## humble minion

Not a subscriber and never have been, although I do pick up occasional issues.

 Reasons I don't subscribe:
 - I'm running Star Wars at the moment, so it's not much use to me right now.  Having said that, I do think that non-fantasy material in Dragon should be kept to an absolute minimum.
 - Cost and price, especially given the lousy reputation for reliability for non-US subscriptions
 - A perception that it's just a shill for WotC.  I _know_ about WotC stuff.  They've got a comprehensive website, and there's people all over boards like this that I can ask about it.  But if I'm going to shell-out my hard-earned for Dragon, I'd need it to be something more.  Something that covers non-WotC publications would be welcome, as would objective reviews of WotC books.  Many long years ago, I stopped buying White Dwarf when it became more an advertising vehicle than a useful resource.  Dragon threatens to go the same way.  If you're publishing articles (as opposed to clearly differentiated ads) talking about Complete Divine, for instance, without mentioning the lousy editing and poor level of playtesting, then I'm never going to take you seriously.
 - Pages spent on the D&D miniatures game, and other matters of absolute irrelevance to roleplaying.  Again, you're coming across as nothing more than an ad with this sort of thing.
 - Unadventurousness.  A magazine is inherently more disposable than a book, and less of an investment.  That makes it a good place to put the wild, wacked-out ideas that aren't really viable anywhere else.  That means occasionally pushing the boundaries of what constitutes 'D&D'.  So yes, include wild optional modifications to the rules, deeply unusual non-medieval settings, massively variant magic systems and so on.  It does not mean hammering Song of Ice and Fire, Dark Sun, or other established settings into the bland, pre-existing catch-all D&D mould that is completely thematically unsuited for them.  Paladins in Westeros and spellcasting bards in Athas don't add anything to either the game or the setting that it's supposedly meant to represent.  They look just as fanboyishly amateurish as the 12-year-old who wants to play a Pokemon trainer in Ravenloft.
 - Yes, once more, less crunch.  I deeply distrust any cruch I find in Dragon, simply because it's often unbalanced or poorly thought-out.  The edition-independent inspiration material, however, is often absolutely brilliant.  And it can be useful far into the future, once D&D3.5 is only a memory.
 - Not everything has to be in a monthly column.  If there's no worthwhile PrC, or Ecology, or new magic items this month - include something else rather than printing disposable junk.
 - Fiction is good, but remember Dragon is a magazine about roleplaying.  If you're going to include fiction, relate it directly and immediately to roleplaying.  Include a couple of pages on the setting of the story, or a monster or two, or a discussion of using similar themes in-game.  Make the fiction _useful_.


----------



## billd91

Interesting to see the pushes for broader focus and narrower focus at the same time. I still miss Dragon being a general gaming magazine that just happened to be D&D-heavy. Ah, well...

Whatever changes you make, Erik, keep Dungeon as it currently is. I'm really enjoying it. I didn't mind the Polyhedron content (as long as it wasn't a big old minigame every other month), but I'm not really missing it much either (well, except the Star Wars stuff).


----------



## jester47

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> >>>
> 3. It's boring. In a recent issue, the editor responded to reader letters concerning some of the recent changes. One stuck in my head, because it summed up this problem. He said that Bazaar of the Bizarre would be called Magic Shop because Magic Shop "is self explanatory". Excuse me? Give your readers credit for some intelligence. This shows just how much flavor has been (apparently deliberately) taken out of the magazine. Rules are boring - flavor is fun. Too often, Dragon reads like a software manual, not a magazine.
> >>>
> 
> I'm doing my best not to reply to this thread, as I want you guys to provide as much "raw" feedback as possible without me or my staff getting in the way. I'll reply to the thread as a whole once everyone has had a chance to contribute.
> 
> But I did want to say that reversing this change was the first thing I did as Editor-in-Chief of Dragon. Look for the "Bazaar of the Bizarre" title to return within the next two issues.
> 
> --Erik Mona
> Editor-in-Chief
> Dragon & Dungeon




Awesome!

All hail the Great Mona!

A.


----------



## Erik Mona

billd91 said:
			
		

> Whatever changes you make, Erik, keep Dungeon as it currently is.




Oh, you can count on it. I absolutely adore Dungeon now. The trick is to get Dragon in the same category. 

And it's a trickier trick.

--Erik Mona
Wizard of Some Repute


----------



## Eosin the Red

Well, spill your guts already!


----------



## Mighty Halfling

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> Articles about how to play, not just how to exploit the rules.



Seconded.


----------



## jasper

philreed said:
			
		

> One suggestion to get people to try Dragon (and Dungeon) is to drop free, 3-month subscription cards in the DMG and PH.
> 
> ....



Good Idea but how about 1 free issue from placed purchased. Or just 1 free dragon issue mailed to you. The cost to Dragon will have to be calculated due to variable natural of purchases of books. Or have a check box where you can send a free issue to friend for when you already have a subscription.


----------



## JoeGKushner

I wonder if the people who want more detail and less mechanics are in the minority.

I understand Erik wanting to make some changes based on feedback and even with the incredible amount of feedback this topic has gathered, it's still not in the thousands that Dragon probably has as a fan base.

Still, thanks for brining back the Bizzare of the Bazzar. Now all we need are Pages from the Mages, the Dragon's Bestiary, the Wizard's Three, the Creature Catalog (although I hear that's going to Dungeon), Legends & Lore (I can't be the only one who remembers the old heroes of myth in D&D terms...) and we'll be all set!


----------



## Brown Jenkin

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I wonder if the people who want more detail and less mechanics are in the minority.
> 
> I understand Erik wanting to make some changes based on feedback and even with the incredible amount of feedback this topic has gathered, it's still not in the thousands that Dragon probably has as a fan base.




I'm sure Erik knows that we are not a representative sample. It does seem however that we are not always completely off base. All the old threads about Dungeon did result in changes for the better. I'm fairly confident that if sales had been going well for Dungeon we wouldn't have seen any changes made. While a true marketing survey would be better, they are expensive and we are cheap. Erik also posted on the WotC boards so he is not entirely relying on us.


----------



## The Shaman

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I absolutely adore Dungeon now.



And thank you for waving a big middle-finger at all of use who bought _Dungeon/Polyhedron_. You've reinforced why I do not, and will not, buy your products.

I've rarely used anything from _Dungeon_, but I use material from _Polyhedron_ all the time, in both my fantasy and Modern games - I've created whole campaign-settings off _Polyhedron_ mini-games.

There was more creativity and spirit in those handful of pages six times a year than in any dozen issues of _Dragon_. I'm sorry that you don't get that.


----------



## devilish

Hi Erik,

Loyal subscriber now but not enthused -- here's what I miss and what I've
loved about Dragon in the past:

What I love, from the crunch side, is raw mechanics - useful and useless:

--remember the stuff in the Dragon Annuals -- rules and formula for the damage  a character takes from being picked up by an ogre , thrown 30 feet in the air, over a cliff; his velocity, d6 damage, etc.
-- How to tell, through stats, whether your dice are flawed
--Size, weight and damage for 100's of golems (and their formula) -- like a wax golem.  All in one article instead of monster supplements
-- Ecologies for their 2e-version of Monster Advancement
--Right before 3E, Dragon had an issue on how to rewrite/customize spells: "Change a spell from Target -> AreaOfEffect = 1 Spell Level"

On the fluff side:

-- Random Elf Name/Tavern Name/etc. generators
-- The whole Devil/Satan/Nine Hells articles
-- Ecologies for their flavor, alterations, and different ways to look at creatures (like a mini Libris Mortis/Draconomicon, but for Otyughs!)

And, though some may disagree, the *whole* "Book Of Vile Darkness" issue .... some
of the spells in there gave me nightmares and would love to see grittier issues.
Sure, it was a product tie-in -- but it had good stuff, moreso than other product tie-ins.

Oh, forgot -- I *hated* the "Samurai v." article in the first "New and Improved" issues that
came out this year.  Lots of pomp and circumstance and no conclusion -- that
almost made me cancel my 10 year+ record of subscribing.  Hate Hate hate !!!!

Thanks for listening to all of us,

-D

PS And to repeat everyone else, Kudos on what you've done
to Dungeon -- no comments necessary.


----------



## RodneyThompson

Black Spiral Dancer said:
			
		

> 4) Class Acts. Good idea, poor in execution. Perhaps you can narrow it down to four arch-types, like WotC did for their "Complete" Series. That would give you two pages for each focus (warrior, divine, arcane, and adventurer) and three pages for a new 20 level class. With more space, you can get a little more depth on a subject.



I'm a little late jumping in on this one, but wouldn't you get tired of a new "core" class every issue just like everyone's getting tired of new prestige classes? Besides, a core class is supposed to be relatively generic, with the prestige classes being more specific. Can you come up with 12 new core classes that are really distinct from one another? How about 24? 36? The idea is to create columns that will last for years without the need for drastic format changes. Such changes are one of the reasons why I suspect some readers claim they feel Dragon has no mission statement, as it were.

That said, I am intrigued by reducing Class Acts down to the four archetypes, though if that were to happen I would suggest doubling the page/word count for each archetype. Class Acts seems to go on forever when I'm flipping through the pages, but I wouldn't mind as much if they were longer articles.



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Look for the "Bazaar of the Bizarre" title to return within the next two issues.



Simply excellent. We're kickin' it old school.


----------



## PJ-Mason

Olive said:
			
		

> While I agree that the issue was pretty bad, I just don't get this sort of thing.




No, i can see where Teflon Billy is coming from. The Dark Sun issue was an absolute joke for Dark Sun fans. It was also an insult to those who were supposedly the "official" source for Dark Sun material. Those Dark Sun articles in Dragon showed a lack of repsect and/or knowledge for the setting. 

Now that Erik is in charge, i expect him to make sure that setting specific articles that are written in Dragon from now on, are given the care and passion he would expect for a Greyhawk article!


----------



## Belen

The Shaman said:
			
		

> And thank you for waving a big middle-finger at all of use who bought _Dungeon/Polyhedron_. You've reinforced why I do not, and will not, buy your products.
> 
> I've rarely used anything from _Dungeon_, but I use material from _Polyhedron_ all the time, in both my fantasy and Modern games - I've created whole campaign-settings off _Polyhedron_ mini-games.
> 
> There was more creativity and spirit in those handful of pages six times a year than in any dozen issues of _Dragon_. I'm sorry that you don't get that.




Dude, Eric was the editor of Poly, was responsible for the Dungeon/Poly merger, and was the person foremost behind the mini-games.

Now, Eric and I had our differences about Poly and whether it should have been included in Dungeon, but I'll bet it is safe to say that discountuing Poly was probably something that ripped a big hole in his heart.

As your pretty new here, I felt that you should know that.  Poly would still be around if it had not cheesed off the Dungeon base.  Eric did everything he could to save it except letting both mags die.


----------



## Veander

I used to subscribe, but I stopped a couple years ago because I was nearly a year behind on reading and the subscription cost was just $30 I couple use on something else.  However, about 6 months after, I wanted to rejoin, but I couldn't get a discount to save my life.  It's now been too long and the price is even gone UP!  Heh, give me a discount and I am one of those folks who even if he isn't getting a deal, will feel great if it appears like one.  I am the kind of buyer who picks up a majority of his d20 products second-hand on ebay, so maybe that's the root of all this - I'm cheap.  I am constantly looking for one of those magazine sites to offer Dragon at a discount, but to no avail.


----------



## The Shaman

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> Dude, Eric was the editor of Poly, was responsible for the Dungeon/Poly merger, and was the person foremost behind the mini-games.
> 
> Now, Eric and I had our differences about Poly and whether it should have been included in Dungeon, but I'll bet it is safe to say that discountuing Poly was probably something that ripped a big hole in his heart.
> 
> As your pretty new here, I felt that you should know that.  Poly would still be around if it had not cheesed off the Dungeon base.  Eric did everything he could to save it except letting both mags die.



I really do appreciate that information - please pardon my ignorant noobness. Erik's comment about "adoring" the new _Dungeon_ format certainly doesn't reflect that bit of history.

I was thinking about this more after I posted earlier. One of the complaints that keeps coming up over and over again is the emphasis on crunch and the lack of fluff in _Dragon_ - the irony to me is that's exactly what _Polyhedron_ offered in spades. The city setting for _Pulp Heroes_, the article on crafting races for _Iron Lords of Jupiter_, the Department-7 "field manual" for d20 _Modern_, much of the "Living Greyhawk" material, and a couple of _Star Wars_ articles whose specifics escape me all spring to mind - they were exactly the sort of campaign-building and -inspiring material that page after page of posts on this thread say is missing in _Dragon_.

_Poly_ material crossed over into virtually any genre:
I'm using material from _Spelljammer_, _Pulp Heroes_, and _Iron Lords of Jupiter_ mini-games for my retro-Future space opera campaign
_Pulp Heroes_ material is also inspiring a new Modern/Past campaign setting I'm working on
_GeneTech_ is a huge part of my present Modern campaign
_Spelljammer_ and _Iron Lords..._ each inspired adventures for my last D&D game
I used weapons and equipment from _V for Victory_ for yet another Modern campaign, and may use some of it again for a new one
I created a couple of Scooby-Doo-like adventures using the much-maligned and reviled _HiJinx_ for my nieces, and it inspired both a PC and NPCs for my Modern game
_Poly_ was not just a tool box for me - it was the entire Snap-On tool set in the big red rolling cabinets. While whiny D&D players complained that there weren't enough adventures - since two full-length adventures and assorted side quests and venues every two months just isn't enough apparently for GMs unwilling or unable to homebrew - they were completely missing all the things they could do with what was in those pages they ignored.

Please forgive my heat over this subject - _Poly_ renewed my love of gaming after WotC and 3._x_ nearly killed it, and in my opinion some of the best, leanest, and most consistenly inspired work in RPGs appeared in those pages. If _Dragon_ was half as good, it might just become worth looking at again.


----------



## francisca

Hey Erik-

Another idea occured to me.  I'd like to see a monthly spotlight on a gaming group.  I'd like to see what other groups running established campaigns are doing and how they do it.  Specifically, I'd like to hear about:
 - non-core material they use, how it is working out for them, how they integrated it into their game, and if they had to to tweak any of it.
 - interesting houserules including how/why they came up with them and their  relative satisfaction with them.
 - what game aids are they using?  What minis?  What battlemats?  What software, if any?  What terrain?  Props?  Do people use Worldworks or Dwarven Forge stuff?  What about stuff that they created for their own use?
 - What do DMs do outside of the game to move it along? Messageboards?  E-mail?  Websites?
 - etc...  I just want to hear what other groups are doing, what works, what doesn't work for them, and why.

I think a 2/3 to 1 page spotlight like this would be neat.  I think it would be handy resource for new DMs especially, and us old graybeards might actually pick up a good idea as well.

Now, lots of you are reading this and saying, dude, I just check ENWorld for that stuff.  Good.  So do I.  Dragon in a 65K+ circulation magazine, however.  I'm sure there are lots of people who don't frequent boards such as this that could benefit from it.


----------



## Azul

devilish said:
			
		

> And, though some may disagree, the *whole* "Book Of Vile Darkness" issue .... some
> of the spells in there gave me nightmares and would love to see grittier issues.
> Sure, it was a product tie-in -- but it had good stuff, moreso than other product tie-ins.




You know, the "Book of Vile Darkness" issue was the only product tie-in that I have ever liked.  Some bits were good and others great (esp. the spells).  Unlike the other tie-ins, that one took chances and had some distinct flavour.  Most of all, it was material strong enough to stand on its own merit.  I was actually a bit dissappointed that the actual book was far more bland than the Dragon magazine material.  A book of "vile darkness" should be vile.  Ultimate evil isn't pretty.  It should make your skin crawl.


----------



## mmadsen

Umbra said:
			
		

> I would buy Dragon if it had more articles examining historical or contemporay cultures, social structures and institutions and how they may be interpreted in various game worlds (high, low, pulp, etc).  I would also like articles on how different aspects of the rules can interact with each other to create different types of fluff (high, low, political, etc).



I would buy _that_ magazine in a heartbeat.


			
				Umbra said:
			
		

> My favorite articles from earlier Dragon's (which I used to buy religiously) were discussions about the alignment system, or how war affects the country-side, or how an Order of knights would operate, or what's happening at a monastery over the course of a day/year.  I suppose I don't want to read historical texts but like potted versions with lots of hooks.



I never collected _Dragon_, but it sounds like I would've enjoyed some of those old articles.


----------



## mmadsen

humble minion said:
			
		

> I'm running Star Wars at the moment, so it's not much use to me right now.  Having said that, I do think that non-fantasy material in Dragon should be kept to an absolute minimum.



A lot of people have suggested including notes for adapting each article to a variety of settings -- Eberron, Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, etc.  I wouldn't mind seeing this taken to the next step -- Star Wars, d20 Modern, d20 Apocalypse, etc.  As long as they're brief notes.


----------



## mmadsen

The Shaman said:
			
		

> _Poly_ renewed my love of gaming after WotC and 3._x_ nearly killed it, and in my opinion some of the best, leanest, and most consistenly inspired work in RPGs appeared in those pages. If _Dragon_ was half as good, it might just become worth looking at again.



So...how do we get the _Poly_ mini-games into _Dragon_?


----------



## Andre

mmadsen said:
			
		

> So...how do we get the _Poly_ mini-games into _Dragon_?




Not that it would ever happen, but how many folks would be in favor of losing the Miniatures section and replacing those pages with Polyhedron? (WOTC would never allow it, but we can dream...) Or alternate Class Acts with Poly. Or Silicon Sorcery. 

I'm one of those who objected strongly to losing entire adventures from Dungeon to make room for Poly. Dragon, on the other hand, has so many different sections I don't think it would bother me at all. Adding Poly is something worth considering, IMO.


----------



## Swiftbrook

Andre said:
			
		

> Not that it would ever happen, but how many folks would be in favor of losing the Miniatures section and replacing those pages with Polyhedron?
> 
> *Or alternate Class Acts with Poly.*




I think this is the best option.  Alternate sections that don't appeal to almost everyone.  If someone knew they were going to get Polyhedron every other month, or every third month, that might be what gets them to subscribe.  I and others have suggested rotating setting articles every 3rd or 4th issue (GH, FR, Eb, etc).  IMO Dragon should seriously consider these options.  But I'm not in the magazine biz either.  

-Swiftbrook


----------



## JVisgaitis

I'm coming late to this party, but at least I got my comments in before Erik let loose with the changes. I stopped my subscription a couple years ago because if the article didn't really tickle my interest, I would rarely go back and visit it again. Even if I did come across something that I did think was really cool, the odds of me remembering it and finding it are pretty slim. Some stuff I have used, but most of the content is very situational.

In the waning days of my Dragon buying, the articles have been a real mixed bag. Mostly I found myself scanning the issue and just stacking them on the shelf. To me, Dragon seems to seriously lack any creative drive that made the older issues so much fun to read. Dungeon OTOH is bursting with coolness nowadays, and its content is always something I can use. If I need NPCs, adventure ideas, or the like Dungeon fits the bill perfectly. Its also very easy to find what I need at a glance.

If anything comes of this thread, PLEASE leave Dungeon as is and don't shuffle any of its content over to Dragon.


----------



## Chant in the Box

Why I don't buy Dragon magazine??
What about why I will not buy Dragon magazine in the future?

To be specific I used to buy the magazine almost every month until the new dragon magazine format came out.

To make it short, it's boring.  The inside look is quite awful compared to the previous format.  Else, the last three issues failed to spark any interest in me.

Like most people on this tread, I think Dungeon is a far better product than Dragon.  You can credit it for the modules in the Greyhawk setting in particular.  A follow up to the Maure Castle will be very nice indeed.  Some of the other reasons that will rules me out forever as a Dragon buyer has been summerized by previous contributors of this tread so I will go strait to what I will like to see in Dragon.

First, I second the suggestion that a colloboration with the RPGA to make sure that the Greyhawk material published in Dragon is available to the Living Greyhawk players.

Second, this colloboration could be used to publish articles related to each country of the Greyhawk setting in a similar format to what I have seen in the regions description in Unaproachable East or Shining South.  It will be an opportunity to bring the setting upto date with the current campaign year without subcribing to the RPGA as well as giving a flavorlike idea of each region without delving too much in detail.  I remember an early issue of the Living Greyhawk Journal about the Kingdom of Keoland that could be a good starting point to assessing the space that should be given to such an article.

Like many people on this tread, I'm more interested in campaign flavor than rules as far as it goes with the existing campaign settings and more so with the old favorites.  For me that means Darksun and Greyhawk.  And, please, no more author alienation and article tweeking without respect to either the setting or the author like what was done with the darksun issue.  That was unwise to say the least.
<<<<<
For those who needs a concrete show of what is unbalancing material in Dragon magazine, check the Mighty Contender of Kord in the smite evil issue that were published in the same year as Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.  The starting concept was great, but the author did not search hard enough how the class could be abused in its mechanics.  As I write this post, I have revised the class twice and it's still very powerful but less frightening.
>>>>>

That's all the feedback I have to give to this discussion....for now.


----------



## King Berserker

*Why don't I subscribe?*

#1. $40/yr is simply too high for content I'll use once if I'm lucky. You can get plenty of other full-color mags for half that.

#2. Fiction that doesn't follow D&D rules.

#3. Stuffy "official content" writing style.

What would I change?

Do whatever's necessary to lower the price. I can read black-and-white just fine.

Love the National Graphic of D&D idea!

Short monster ecologies

I'll jump on the "lose the PrC" bandwagon

Support a variety of settings

That's it for now.

Peter

BTW, you really are to be commended for Dungeon.


----------



## scourger

The Shaman said:
			
		

> And thank you for waving a big middle-finger at all of use who bought _Dungeon/Polyhedron_. You've reinforced why I do not, and will not, buy your products.
> 
> I've rarely used anything from _Dungeon_, but I use material from _Polyhedron_ all the time, in both my fantasy and Modern games - I've created whole campaign-settings off _Polyhedron_ mini-games.
> 
> There was more creativity and spirit in those handful of pages six times a year than in any dozen issues of _Dragon_. I'm sorry that you don't get that.




That first line is a little too harsh.  I miss Polyhedron, too; especially mini-games like Omega World.  But the core of Dungeon has always been about publishing D&D adventures (at least for the approximately 70 issues I have).  The magazine and the game are better served by focusing on that core mission.  In short, it's better to do one thing well than many things poorly (or even adequately).


----------



## JVisgaitis

After thinking about this a bit more, and reading the newest EGM "in the office," I think Dragon is a lot like a video game magazine. There might be something in there at the moment that piques your interest, but once you read through it, it just ends up stuck on the shelf. This is a lot like White Dwarf nowadays.


----------



## Greylock

I buy the magazine regularly, and wish I'd managed to keep track of my old issues over the years, but alas, I did not.

And I agree so much with almost everything that has been noted in the previous pages, more fluff, less crunch, kill the PrCs, more comics, that I am embarrassed to say this....

But....

Ackkk, I can't bring myself to make it plain for everyone to see, so a 'spoiler' follows...

I like the fiction.

There, I got that off my chest finally, and I've been reading this thread since it was a wee little thing.


----------



## iamrpgdm

I already posted my thoughts back on page 3 or 4, but thought I'd post something I found. I have the following issues of Dragon

#148
#224
#293
#294

Impressive collection, huh? Anyway, the Editorial in issue #224(12/95) was called "Building a Better Dragon". It had to do with Dragon going through changes then. Here's the overview of the changes the article described as _"Something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue."_

 - Something blue - Price going from $3.95 to $4.95

 - Something borrowed - The readers - they let Dragon know what they wanted and Dragon responded.

 - Something new - "1. More color-Full four-color capability, will give you a new livelier Dragon without sacrificing readability. 2. More articles-We're tightening our articles, removing fluff and leaving the meat, thus room for more information. 3. New features-Features intended to be more directly useful at the gaming table. 4. New attitude-Definately a dragon's attitude. Feisty and opinionated."

 - Something old - "Dragonmirth, Forums, Letters and popular features will remain."

Interesting to see what the RPG community wanted almost tens years ago.


----------



## ecliptic

I want crunch that goes with the fluff printed. I don't want just plain old crunch with no fluff to it. I want to see more Greyhawk content.


----------



## TDRandall

Looks like Erik still hasn't filled the readers in here, so although I agree with so much of what has been said I'll throw my voice in too.  And there are some discrepancies, just to keep things interesting......

First, I AM a subscriber to both magazines.  Just subscribed to Dungeon again, after I found myself buying more issues off the shelf than a year's sub would cost me.  Dragon I almost let lapse, but in the clinch decided to give it another year to see the changes (and to keep the collection going).

Second, I make sure to read every issue cover to cover, although I am now three issues back since one came in yesterday (other demands of life and other great things to read including other RPG material).  I don't enjoy it all equally, however.

Of the existing items:
- I have yet to find any real nugget of use in the miniatures articles
- I enjoy fiction.  As long as it was replaced with something useful I could let it go, but definitely drop miniatures first!  (On the other hand, having four issues with a multi-part story by the same author was too much.)
- The recent ecologies are not as entertaining as the prior "story" ones.
- The class articles seem to pass on the buck and rehash items in another shape.  I've seen at least two if not three "flaws" articles.  The fact that it's moved to another class does little.
- There is less overall "fun", meaning a decline in comics and I miss the zany April issues.
- I like the new races, but like the prestige classes I can see where it's going to get old after a while.

Things gone:
- I didn't mind the few pages of "future WOTC offerings" add a while back, but please do NOT go back to having the bulk of whole issues, each issue devoted to a book that will come out two months in the future.  I let my subscription lapse when it became the "product of next month" mouthpiece.
- Gygax is gone, and I probably wouldn't care to see him come back.  But I did enjoy "our old game" recollections, so maybe stories by other "pros" with their memories would be good.  Sort of like the editorial, but another one that swaps people each month.
- I enjoyed the Three Mages stories.  Fiction-like yes, but if it was given some underpinnings on new spells or magic items, then it might squeeze in under the "no fiction" radar that I'm seeing is prevelent here.
- I enjoyed the few medieval cities we saw in the past.  I remember London and (I think) Vienna.  Bring them or something similar back please!  Expand them even more if possible, to the point where I can see/smell/explain/present it to the players.  (I'm looking foward to the sewer article as I catch up on reading the mags.)
- I didn't really enjoy "Knight vs. Samurai", but can't put a definite finger on what it was.  It seemed to circle on minutiae so much that it ended up losing my attention and any definite thesis/point by the end, but perhaps I was in the wrong mood.

Suggestions for future:
- Yes please, and Index/database!  (available online so I can download and search)
- Yes please, the availability to pull them off in PDF format!  If you could find a way to meld them in with my Dragon archives CD and have the whole bulk searchable then I will nominate you for sainthood.  (But note - I don't want to have to go to PDF-only format.)
- Price creep needs to slow if not stop and reverse.  I can get huge discounts on almost anything else through Publishers, wholesalemags, etc. why not Dragon?  (OK, it's the size of the distribution I'm sure, 65000 sounds like a lot but is most assuredly a drop compared to Newsweek, Entertainment Weekly, etc.)
- I would be open to a small section of non-fantasy.  I enjoyed the Polyhedron stuff, and would be willing to see Star Wars, Modern, Future, (and eventually Past or Apocalyptic) material show up inside a few pages each issue.

What could I REALLY use?  Unfortunately, I think the answers to this are supposed to go in Dungeon as defined.  But I don't think they (currently) give enough space to do any of the ideas justice so I'll post them here for consideration:
- NPC groups/organizations.  There were some of these in previous Dragons, but I don't just want people and stats, I want how they really interact with their environment, the plots they are/could be up to.
- Similarly, I want material that I can use to give depth to the world.  Ways of intrigue/politicking, the perils and benefits of nobility, governments in action, guilds and their caravans, how a church hierarchy actually works (or doesn't) ... as defined mostly by how they interact with the rest of the world.
- Mini settings.  I liked how Shanarra, Robin Hood, and Westeros were presented.  I am not an expert on the underlying materials; rather, I like the fact they were presented as a cohesive package.  I would really enjoy authors, maybe again some of those RPG "pros" out there that could convincingly present a mini setting by culling out pertinent pieces of the already EXISTING material (especially from previous Dragon issues).  Sort of "look, if we pull these (few) prestige classes and these feats, and flavor things slightly 'so' then we have a very good approximation of an XYZ setting" (and if you could actually tack a name on it that might flag the readers even further, like "Lankhmar", "Dune", "Song of Roland", "Beowulf", "Harold the Saxon", "Midkemia" etc. it would be even better.)

Finally, to get more subscribers there really should be a subscriber benefit.  Used to be the annuals fit that bill and I'd love a 13th issue again each year, but inserts into subscriber polybags that wouldn't show up on a store shelf (maybe something along the line of the things DMs and/or players can get from the RPGA) or access to web extras might fit that bill too.

Well, there you go!  My long shopping list, of which the return of even a part would brighten my day.


----------



## The Shaman

scourger said:
			
		

> That first line is a little too harsh.



You're right, of course - it is harsh.

That rant has been inside me for a long time now, and I needed to let it go. I'm not proud of it, but there it is.


----------



## Yeoman

For me the presence of fiction is a real turn off to the magazine. If I wanted short stories I'd read a literary magazine or an anthology. I'd rather see more gaming content in it's place. I like the more generic style of content that Dragon is currently running, but I wouldn't mind the occasional, out of left field type of article. One thing I would definitely like to see is more psionics support. Also I've seen it mentioned that some people don't like the trade magazine type of feel, but for me and my wife it works, because we want the information, and we will put our own spin on it.


----------



## qstor

Shade said:
			
		

> I've been a subscriber since early 3E, so I will follow wilder_jw and tell you why I'd let my subscription lapse.
> 
> 1.)  Knight vs. Samurai style articles.  That issue had me seriously pondering dropping the magazine the next time renewal was up.   In fact, most of the post-"Dragon Unleashed" issues have excited me about as much as junk mail.   About the only things I've really liked lately are the revised monsters from past editions in Winning Races (grippli, lupins), the occasional new monster, the comics, and Sage Advice.
> 
> 2.)  I'm going to second wilder_jw on fiction.   I've never read a single fiction article in Dragon and never intend to (and I was a 1E subscriber for many years and purchased the archive on CD-ROM).  Those pages might as well be advertisements for their usefulness to me.
> 
> 3.)  Maintaining that Dragon be "player-focused", at the expense of DMs.  I'll be honest with you, the first thing I look for in a new issue is new monsters, followed by planar material and anything that brings back something great from past editions of the game.




I don't like the class articles at the back of the magazine. I think those are pretty much useless and filler space. I'm not too thrilled with the new format either. 

Once I got used to the older format you guys go and change it again 

Like another poster I'm interested in Greyhawk material particularly the LGG and if it comes back to Dragon, I'll renew my subscription but most likley I'll keep my Dungeon subscription and let the Dragon one lapse.

I also like Ed Greenwood Realms articles and I haven't seen much of those in the past. I don't mind the ficition. I think its always been there so why CHANGE it. I've been reading Dragon since issue #54, I missed most of the 2e era but have very 3e/3.5 issue.

Mike


----------



## jasper

People been complaining the price per issue and per year of dragon magazine. Think people. D&D is a very niche hobby with added problem of the products are not high volume turn over or low volume high price turn over. 
I and my wife play with trains. An O gauge(think Lionel set) beginner set will cost around $180, for an HO gauge(think matchbox or the race car track you played with as a kid) set start around $70. Individual pieces can start from around $1 for a piece or two of track, to $500 for a engine.
OGR (O gauge railroading magazine) last year monthly numbers were 33,189 copies with one year (7 issues) being $31.95, 2 years $59.95, 3 years  $84.95
Classic toy trains (covers all gauges but generally smaller than O gauge) last year monthly number were 60,130 copies. 1 year (9 issues) $39.95, 2 years $74.95, 3 years $106.95. 
Pick up a  flip through a copy of one of those and compare the ad space to the Dragon. More ads with few colors. Less articles.


----------



## Brown Jenkin

Ok Erik,  things have settled down, and it has been a couple days since you said you would post what you have planned already. I can't wait to hear what you already have in store and are teasing us with.


----------



## Erik Mona

The Shaman said:
			
		

> And thank you for waving a big middle-finger at all of use who bought _Dungeon/Polyhedron_. You've reinforced why I do not, and will not, buy your products.
> 
> I've rarely used anything from _Dungeon_, but I use material from _Polyhedron_ all the time, in both my fantasy and Modern games - I've created whole campaign-settings off _Polyhedron_ mini-games.
> 
> There was more creativity and spirit in those handful of pages six times a year than in any dozen issues of _Dragon_. I'm sorry that you don't get that.




Ahem.

Not only _do_ I get that, but I was almost wholly responsible for it. I loved the Polyhedron section of Dungeon, which I created out of nothing. But it wasn't economically viable, and so I reshaped Dungeon into something that could be more commercially successful. 

Further, I only just took over the helm of Dragon, so aside from a couple of articles I wrote and the Living Greyhawk Journal section of old (which I also edited), none of the negative feedback on this thread offends me in the least. In fact, I agree with a lot of it.

I'm sorry that Polyhedron didn't work out. Probably moreso than anyone.

--Erik Mona
Editor, Polyhedron
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon


----------



## jester47

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> Ok Erik,  things have settled down, and it has been a couple days since you said you would post what you have planned already. I can't wait to hear what you already have in store and are teasing us with.




Yeah!

A.


----------



## Darren

Hmm...

I replied on page 2 already, but I thought I'd add something, for what it's worth.

After reading several people comment positively on issue #326, I went and got a copy for myself.  I had not purchased Dragon since the recent format change. It looked promising on the magazine rack.  I like the cleaner layout at least.

Unfortunately nothing in Table Talk really grabbed my attention (well, ok, I liked Nodwick).  Under Command, Silicon Sorcery, and the two-page ad for the latest Realms novel were skipped entirely after a couple of paragraphs.

Next came the Features articles.  The Dungeon Delver's Guide might be useful to new players just getting ready for their first delve, but most of the content seemed painfully obvious.  (On carrying supplies: "... dispensing equipment throughout the party provides the easiest way of dealing with such problems, with strong characters carrying more but weaker characters still taking on some of the load.")  Down the Drain suffered similar problems.  ("Unless the entire party has darkvision, you will need a light source of some kind.")  The Get Lost! article was better, though I think it could have benefitted significantly by including a few diagrams of the actual historical labyrinths that were discussed.

Some of the stuff in Familiars caught my attention, but not for very good reasons.  The Shaper of Form prestige class was an interesting idea, but anything that grants the ability to _Disjunction_ an item with no save is right out in my game, even if it doesn't come with full spell progression.  More of the obvious in class acts (Barbarians: "When focusing on power, make Strength your highest ability score."), as well as the obscure (I'm still trying to figure out why a Ranger with the Throwing Style combat option would want Quick Draw at 2nd level but wait until 6th to get Point Blank Shot.).

It seems even more apparent after reading this issue that Dragon simply isn't written for me.  I think part of this is due to the length of the articles: they're just too short to get into a good, meaty topic.  For example, we got one page about the Historical Holy Knight.  We're told that these prototypical paladins "performed countless impossibly heroic feats," but if we want to know anything more apparently we will need to read _The Song of Roland_ or Dante's _Inferno_.  The level of writing seems wrong too.  I've been playing D&D for only a few years, but I've figured out the importance of marching order, the utility of 10-foot poles, and the need for a light source in dark, creepy places.  I'm ready for more, to advance to 8th level and get some real power, so to speak.

So what would get me more interested in Dragon?  Well, Dragon's biggest competitors for my seven gaming dollars right now are the PDFs on RPGnow and old AD&D supplements for sale on ebay that I can mine for ideas and fluff.  Recent PDF purchases include some of the more popular Ronin Arts PDFs like the 101 Collection and also a neat little document called Tournaments, Fairs, and Taverns that several people from ENworld are well acquainted with.  A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe is probably also something I will pick up eventually.  If Dragon can somehow compare favorably with these and similar products, then I'll start making regular purchases.

Perhaps a section just for new gamers would be nice, rather than having so many articles telling experienced gamers things they already know.  Sort of a Sage Advice Lite or something like that.  I'm not sure about this.  Balancing coverage for old and new gamers looks to be tough.  Good, useful content, exclusive to Dragon would be helpful.  It's a bit of a disincentive to buy when I know that the very best new rules are likely to end up in a Wizards hardback.  Also, bump up the entertainment value a bit.  For example, I was never a great Polyhedron fan when it and Dungeon were bundled together, but it did have a great article from time to time.  My very favorite happens to be Beasts of the Scarlet Brotherhood from Poly #165.  Why?  The neat little sketches of the beasts with the ghoulishly fun little commentary about each from the Fiend-Sage.  It's difficult to explain, but it just seemed like that was the perfect way for a magazine article to write up some new creatures.  It exactly nailed the style/substance ratio.  Or maybe I'm just a little strange that way.

Anyway, good luck with Dragon.  I suspect that changes that would make me happy would upset quite a number of the people who enjoy the magazine now, but I'll keep checking it out from time to time.


----------



## Ogrork the Mighty

Polyhedron is dead; at least in terms of being included in Dungeon or Dragon. Let it stay that way. Yes, it has its diehard fans. But those diehard fans are dwarfed by the number of people who DON'T want to see it in the D&D mags. Go create a standalone Poly if it's so important; you'll quickly discover that there aren't enough people willing to buy it to make it viable. Why do you think it was tacked on to other mags? It certainly can't stand on its own.

To me, IMO, Poly has always been garbage. Back when it came with membership in the RPGA and then when it was in Dragon. I didn't like it and I resented having it take up space in D&D mags. Getting rid of Poly was one of the prime reasons I resubscribed to Dungeon.

Poly is dead. Let's move on...


----------



## Erik Mona

Ogrork the Mighty said:
			
		

> To me, IMO, Poly has always been garbage. Back when it came with membership in the RPGA and then when it was in Dragon. I didn't like it and I resented having it take up space in D&D mags. Getting rid of Poly was one of the prime reasons I resubscribed to Dungeon.
> 
> Poly is dead. Let's move on...




Right back atcha, pal. 

It's not coming back. Don't sweat it.

--Erik


----------



## Andrew D. Gable

First and foremost is the fact that (most of) it isn't Open Content.  I don't know why this is really an issue with me, as I don't really have any plans to publish anything, but I just find it kinda... I don't use a lot of WOTCs books for the same reason.


----------



## thundershot

See, in my home, EVERYTHING is open content. I have no aspirations about publishing, so every book on my shelf is considered to be open content for our own purposes. Funny thing is, even most books that ARE open content never get used by anyone else anyway. We still have several steam books, several whatever books... You still have to play pick and choose..


Chris


----------



## Mystery Man

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> It's not coming back. Don't sweat it.
> 
> --Erik



 Praise the Lord.


----------



## Larcen

Disclaimer: I have not read all 16 pages (!) of this so if the following suggestions have already been made, simply add my voice to theirs.

I no longer subscribe. Instead if I see an interesting Dragon magazine in a magazine rack, I buy it. But I don’t necessarily seek it out because I have many other D&D things to read already. Ever hear of the song "Video Killed the Radio Star"? This is a case of "Internet and OGC Killed the Magazine Star". With so much material to be found online and in all the published OGC stuff, there is already too much information for me to absorb from one month to the next.

But, there is an opportunity here. I say embrace the OGC stuff. Don't fight or compete with it. Here's how... 

You want to help me enough to want to subscribe? Then help me filter all the good OGC stuff from the bad. Have much more reviews of all the latest 3rd party stuff out there, both books and software. Real, good, in depth reviews. Help me (and especially newbies) to choose and use the massive amounts of crunch already available. Keep a Hall of Fame page for capsulized "must have" stuff. Give me that and less crunch. 

I know that there are plenty of review websites out there, this one included, but you guys are in a much more elevated and visible position. Heck, why don’t you review the review sites!  Make it a new department called “D20 Online Connection” or something.  You guys should be poised to be The place to go for reviewing, categorizing, and using all things D20.

Example:

Player1: "Hey, Bob, what do you think of this new D20 product that is coming out this month? It looks good, but I wonder what's really in it, how can we use it, and will it fit into our campaign theme?"

Player2: "I got my eye on that too, dude. Can't wait until the next Dragon comes out to see what they say about it. I really liked their article last month on how to incorporate, expand upon, and balance out this other stuff over here."

You guys should really be shaking hands with and talking to all the D20 publishers out there. If anyone should have there finger on the D20 community’s pulse, it should be Dragon magazine.  I would even go so far as to say make your magazine 80% reviews, how-tos, and designer interviews… and 20% new rules content.  I would be happy.  

Keep Dungeon mostly for WOTC’s new ideas and make Dragon a repository of mostly everyone else’s.  Ok, maybe I am exaggerating here but you get the idea.  Make the magazine more of a “D20 News” source.  When you wake up on some mornings don’t think “what new and exciting article can we come up with this month?”, instead think “what new and exciting ideas has the D20 community come up with?”

Oh yeah, one more thing along these lines. Take a tip from Video game review magazines and rate each product by categories. Instead of Gameplay, Graphics, Sound, etc, categorize all the D20 products on such things as Target Audience, Setting Style, Crunch level, Writing, Layout, Artwork, etc.

Thanks for listening and good luck.


----------



## The Sigil

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> But I also know that many of you don't buy Dragon, and I'd like to know why. Over my 20+ years as a D&D player, I've had "on" periods and "off" periods with the magazine, so I know what sorts of things went into my personal decision not to buy Dragon, but I'd like to know yours.
> 
> If I can make some changes to the magazine to make it a more attractive purchase, there's a chance we all go away happy.
> 
> So, if you're _not_ a regular customer of Dragon magazine (let's say you buy fewer than three issues annually), please take a minute or two to answer the following questions.
> 
> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?



You're probably not going to like to hear this, and I hope it doesn't make me sound like I hold grudges, but...

1 - The appearance of the words "s---" and "f---" in Dragon Magazine (the Martin excerpt and the issue before it, IIRC) was the proximate cause of the decision to terminate my subscription.  When I invite you into my home - including via the printed magazine medium, I expect a certain decorum... while you're going to be accessible to my kids and I don't want THEM reading those kinds of words, more importantly, *I* don't want to read those words.  They have no place in my home, regardless of the circumstance.

2 - This was exacerbated by the attitude of the Dragon staff towards criticism sent their way over the decision to include those words in their publication.  The attitude I got was, "if you don't like it, you're a prude and we know better and are more enlightened anyways."  In other words, the staff did not apologize and in fact seemed to want an apology from me for being offended by their decision to use words (some of the "seven words you can't say on TV," by the way) that are commonly known to be offensive.  That took my attitude from, "well, I'm annoyed, but I'm also forgiving so I'll give them a second chance" to "well, I'm annoyed and it's clear they not only don't WANT a second chance, they intend to do it again so there's no point in giving them a second chance."

Again, call me grudge-holding and prudish if you must, but you DID ask.

3 - While this was not the proximate cause of my allowing my subscription to lapse, the "Dragon issue themed so as to plug the latest WotC offering" had gotten so blatant as to cause me irritation.



> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?



Again, you're not going to like this, but you asked...

If Dragon loudly and publicly apologizes for using some of the "seven words," displays a contrite attitude about it ("we apologize to those we have offended and are sorry for our poor reaction to the criticism when it was first raised") AND makes it clear that editorial policy from this time forth will be to edit them from its publications, I'll give you another look.  Until I have your collective assurance that those words will not be used in my home, however, I see no reason to give you another look.

If you don't like it, that's fine.  I respect your decision to do that.  I'm just being blunt and to-the-point here in what I want before I re-subscribe so that there is no misunderstanding.  If you decide you can't do that, and/or it's not worth the bother just for one subscriber, that is your decision.

BTW, I dropped Dungeon on the grounds that I shouldn't support a company that does business in a way I disapprove of - and because I had no guarantee that those offensive words wouldn't wind up in Dungeon as well.  So you can get a "double whammy" if you get me back. 


> I very much appreciate your time and attention.



And I appreciate that you've got a listening ear. 

Seriously, I'm not trying to be mean.  I'm just trying to make my cause for disenchantment crystal clear.

Thanks,

Spencer "The Sigil" Cooley
Ex-Dungeon Subscriber
Ex-Dragon Subscriber


----------



## Demonix

I used to buy Dragon magazine each month but all the shops in my area do not get the magazine any longer... a pity as I liked the magazine. 

I tried to subscribe to Dungeon magazine but ive been waiting months for an issue - it looks like Paizo's distribution network is either very poor or they dont give a stuff about their customers, either way I'm annoyed about it!

Thats my 2p's worth.


----------



## Son_of_Thunder

The Sigil said:
			
		

> You're probably not going to like to hear this, and I hope it doesn't make me sound like I hold grudges, but...
> 
> 1 - The appearance of the words "s---" and "f---" in Dragon Magazine (the Martin excerpt and the issue before it, IIRC) was the proximate cause of the decision to terminate my subscription.  When I invite you into my home - including via the printed magazine medium, I expect a certain decorum... while you're going to be accessible to my kids and I don't want THEM reading those kinds of words, more importantly, *I* don't want to read those words.  They have no place in my home, regardless of the circumstance.
> 
> 2 - This was exacerbated by the attitude of the Dragon staff towards criticism sent their way over the decision to include those words in their publication.  The attitude I got was, "if you don't like it, you're a prude and we know better and are more enlightened anyways."  In other words, the staff did not apologize and in fact seemed to want an apology from me for being offended by their decision to use words (some of the "seven words you can't say on TV," by the way) that are commonly known to be offensive.  That took my attitude from, "well, I'm annoyed, but I'm also forgiving so I'll give them a second chance" to "well, I'm annoyed and it's clear they not only don't WANT a second chance, they intend to do it again so there's no point in giving them a second chance."
> 
> Again, call me grudge-holding and prudish if you must, but you DID ask.
> 
> 3 - While this was not the proximate cause of my allowing my subscription to lapse, the "Dragon issue themed so as to plug the latest WotC offering" had gotten so blatant as to cause me irritation.
> 
> 
> Again, you're not going to like this, but you asked...
> 
> If Dragon loudly and publicly apologizes for using some of the "seven words," displays a contrite attitude about it ("we apologize to those we have offended and are sorry for our poor reaction to the criticism when it was first raised") AND makes it clear that editorial policy from this time forth will be to edit them from its publications, I'll give you another look.  Until I have your collective assurance that those words will not be used in my home, however, I see no reason to give you another look.
> 
> If you don't like it, that's fine.  I respect your decision to do that.  I'm just being blunt and to-the-point here in what I want before I re-subscribe so that there is no misunderstanding.  If you decide you can't do that, and/or it's not worth the bother just for one subscriber, that is your decision.
> 
> BTW, I dropped Dungeon on the grounds that I shouldn't support a company that does business in a way I disapprove of - and because I had no guarantee that those offensive words wouldn't wind up in Dungeon as well.  So you can get a "double whammy" if you get me back.
> 
> And I appreciate that you've got a listening ear.
> 
> Seriously, I'm not trying to be mean.  I'm just trying to make my cause for disenchantment crystal clear.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Spencer "The Sigil" Cooley
> Ex-Dungeon Subscriber
> Ex-Dragon Subscriber





I just wanted to give a big AMEN to what The Sigil said. He wrote more succinctly than I would have.

I just wanted to add that the sealed section issues also were a deal breaker with me. As a subscriber I had no choice in whether or not I received it.

I have had to physically cut pages from my Dragon and Dungeon magazines to the point where I don't know why they're on my shelf anymore.

Thanks for listening Erik.

For the record I don't think I'd ever resubscribe as I think I've just outgrown both magazines.


----------



## Erik Mona

TheSigil,

It's not really my place to apologize for something I wasn't involved with in the first place, but I can assure you that I've no intention to print "dirty" words in the magazine during my tenure. I started reading Dragon when I was a wee lad, and see no reason to upset people with this kind of thing. Besides, there are plenty of game-related ways to upset the readers, so I don't really understand the point of gunning for controversy.

Since all the fiction we will be printing in the foreseeable future is tied to the Forgotten Realms or Eberron, the standards shown in those stories will match those of the books published under the same brands--which I'm going to assume means no potty mouth.

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon


----------



## RFisher

I've offered my suggestions as to how to improve _Dragon_ over the years numerous times. This time, rather than try to analyze things, I'll just say that:

I got much, much, much more use & inspiration out of the magazine in the 1980s than I did after 2000. (I didn't subscribe in the 1990s.)

& I will continue to agree & repeat that there are plenty of better avenues for fiction to be published through. I have indeed enjoyed some of the fiction in _Dragon_ a lot, but I still don't think it belongs there.


----------



## jester47

Its 5 or 6 days and 300 posts later.  We can't take it any more!  Whats going to happen to the mag?!!!

A.


----------



## Eosin the Red

jester47 said:
			
		

> Its 5 or 6 days and 300 posts later.  We can't take it any more!  Whats going to happen to the mag?!!!
> 
> A.





What he said!


----------



## Brown Jenkin

Hopefully Erik will reply soon. I am almost getting to the point of wondering whether this went heavily in areas that wern't expected and a response is therefore taking longer.


----------



## Nellisir

Larcen said:
			
		

> I would even go so far as to say make your magazine 80% reviews, how-tos, and designer interviews… and 20% new rules content.




Oooo, two thumbs down, down, down.

As you said, there are a ton of review sites online.  There is no void to be filled here.  Many of the online reviews are amateur, true, but it's usually not that hard to find two or three or four reviews of the same product and look for the common points.  Do 3 out of 4 reviews call it bad?  Then it's probably bad.  And you didn't have to wait a month to find out.

No reviews.

(I'm "eh" on fiction, though.  Mostly it's uninteresting, but some of it is really great.  I'd love to see Fool Wolf again.)

Cheers
Nell.


----------



## coyote6

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Since all the fiction we will be printing in the foreseeable future is tied to the Forgotten Realms or Eberron




In that case, I'll add my vote to the "drop the fiction" pile. 

Martin's piece was far, far better than any of the FR fiction I've read. Much the same holds for the Fool Wolf stories (they weren't part of any game setting, IIRC). If the fiction's not going to be really good, I'd rather have more articles.

(I hope a couple of cuss words aren't why we won't be seeing anything but WotC-property-based fiction. I imagine it isn't, but just in case, for the record: I disagree with TheSigil.)

PS: For the record, I do buy Dragon. My subscription runs out in 10 months; I plan on renewing (at least right now; no plan survives contact with reality, right?).


----------



## Jeff Wilder

The Sigil said:
			
		

> If Dragon loudly and publicly apologizes for using some of the "seven words," displays a contrite attitude about it ("we apologize to those we have offended and are sorry for our poor reaction to the criticism when it was first raised") AND makes it clear that editorial policy from this time forth will be to edit them from its publications, I'll give you another look.




And I, at that point, will unsubscribe out of sheer disgust.

Gaming is a hobby for mature people, even if they may be young.  If people are incapable of handling vulgarity -- and God forbid they recognize those times when its use is valid and even necessary -- then they should probably take up something like doily-making.

D&D is a game about -- among other things -- violence and killing.  I find it completely _bizarre_ that the same people who have no problems with extreme violence have problems with a few words, all of which can be heard 2000 times a day at any middle school in the country.

These are the people who forced the removal of "demon" and "devil" from D&D.  Cater to them, and you'll lose my business and a significant chunk of my not-inconsiderable disposable income.  And I know plenty of gamers who feel the same.


----------



## Teflon Billy

The Sigil said:
			
		

> If Dragon loudly and publicly apologizes for using some of the "seven words," displays a contrite attitude about it ("we apologize to those we have offended and are sorry for our poor reaction to the criticism when it was first raised") AND makes it clear that editorial policy from this time forth will be to edit them from its publications, I'll give you another look. Until I have your collective assurance that those words will not be used in my home, however, I see no reason to give you another look.




Wow.

You cancelled (and refuse to reconsider cancelling) your subscription because they used _naughty language_?

:\

You play a game that involves killing for treasure.

It doesn't get much naughtier than that.

Edit: looks like Jeff Wilder already addressed this.


----------



## Warp Demon

wilder_jw said:
			
		

> .
> 
> These are the people who forced the removal of "demon" and "devil" from D&D.  Cater to them, and you'll lose my business and a significant chunk of my not-inconsiderable disposable income.  And I know plenty of gamers who feel the same.




 I agree with you 100 percent!


----------



## Olive

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> You cancelled (and refuse to reconsider cancelling) your subscription because they used _naughty language_?




How different is that from stopping buying a magazine cos it handled a setting (Dark Sun or Westeros) in a way you didn't approve of? I mean at least you're  _aware_ that it's petty, but still.



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> It's not really my place to apologize for something I wasn't involved with in the first place, but I can assure you that I've no intention to print "dirty" words in the magazine during my tenure. I started reading Dragon when I was a wee lad, and see no reason to upset people with this kind of thing. Besides, there are plenty of game-related ways to upset the readers, so I don't really understand the point of gunning for controversy.
> 
> Since all the fiction we will be printing in the foreseeable future is tied to the Forgotten Realms or Eberron, the standards shown in those stories will match those of the books published under the same brands--which I'm going to assume means no potty mouth.




Sure, but if you got a chance to publish some genuinely good fiction, such as George R. R. Martin, would you refuse it because it contains perfectly standard adult language?


----------



## Erik Mona

coyote6 said:
			
		

> Martin's piece was far, far better than any of the FR fiction I've read. Much the same holds for the Fool Wolf stories (they weren't part of any game setting, IIRC). If the fiction's not going to be really good, I'd rather have more articles.




I sympathize with this position. I'm not certain that I share it, however. On the one hand, I would very much enjoy editing a magazine that periodically offered a vibrant, even cutting-edge fantasy yarn. In the 1970s, when Dragon was born, its editors went to lengths to discuss and (in some cases) introduce the audience to seminal fantasists like Fritz Leiber (especially), Robert E. Howard, H.P. Lovecraft, and Jack Vance. An issue of The Strategic Review (Dragon's older brother) included a short article on IOUN stones, with a note that their creator (Vance) had approved of their inclusion in the game. Early Dragons featured a short piece on Fafhrd and Grey Mouser's reaction to modern roleplaying gamers (hilarious, by Leiber himself), a lengthy, serialized piece by Harry O. Fischer on the development of Lankhmar, and of course Niall of the Far Travels, star of several fantasy adventure stories penned by Gardner Fox (creator of the Justice Society of America, among countless other classic works). 

I would have been honored and humbled to work with the luminaries listed above, and will always respect the pioneers of this hobby (Gary Gygax, Tim Kask, etc.) for including the living fathers of fantasy and for basing so much of what is _still_ Dungeons & Dragons upon their visionary ideas. The "spirit" of these early stories matches closely my personal D&D campaigns. Mine is a Dungeons & Dragons of Conan and Cugel, of Lankhmar and Ascolais. 

But the Dragon of Fox, Leiber, and Fischer came well before the publishers of Dungeons & Dragons began to create multi-novel lines of books aimed squarely at the interests of D&D's players, using the company's beloved campaign settings as backdrops. Wizards of the Coast publishes scores of fantasy books every year. Some of them reach the New York Times best-seller list. Many of them are branded "Dungeons & Dragons" and hew to the conventions of the game. 

If Dragon is to have fiction at all, doesn't it make sense to tie that fiction to the fiction-publishing branch of the Dungeons & Dragons business? There are several other magazines on the market (none of which existed in 1976) poised to publish fantasy by up-and-coming or already popular fantasy authors. But none of those magazines can publish a short story set in Eberron. None of them can run a yarn based on the Red Wizards of Thay. But I can. 

If I only publish three or four short stories a year, does it make sense to publish any that aren't in some way tied to Dungeons & Dragons?

Isn't Dragon the Dungeons & Dragons magazine?

Like I said, Dragon is a trickier trick than Dungeon. Not everything is so easy to figure out. I honestly haven't decided which way to go, and probably won't make a final decision right away. A part of me would love to publish innovative non-gaming fantasy. I tried to get China Mieville to send us a story when I met him a couple years back, and oh, boy would it excite me to give people like him an audience for their absolutely brilliant work. I just read "Black Brillion," by Matthew Hodges, and would love to work with him on something for the magazine, too. I'd adore editing that magazine.

But I'm not yet sure that that magazine is Dragon.

Honestly, I'm very divided about including fiction at all. It's very tempting to just write it off as "not Dragon's problem," leaving fiction to the fiction magazines. The feedback on this thread suggests that that would be the most popular thing to do. I may do it still.

But another part of me remembers the 7-year-old who pretty much discovered fantasy through the lens of Dungeons & Dragons. The first edition Dungeon Master's Guide features a reading list that points to Lovecraft, Moorcock, Vance, and Leiber, who still rank as some of my favorite fantasy authors. 

I sometimes wonder if D&D, and hence Dragon magazine, has a sort of responsibility to keep the flame of fantasy fiction alive. That publishing short fantasy fiction in Dragon is a legacy. A responsibility, if you will. If something I put in a magazine can lead a young reader to discover fantasy fiction. . . I dunno. I get sappy sometimes. 

In the immediate future, we've got two or three short stories on the docket. One is a really fun Forgotten Realms murder mystery featuring a couple of characters from "The Rite," by Richard Lee Byers. Another is our first Eberron short story, which ought to be interesting. Beyond that is undiscovered country. 

I don't anticipate publishing swear words, either way. If some greatly respected author wants to drop the F-bomb, we'll see what happens. But most of the fiction authors I greatly respect are dead, so it's not likely. I'm not worried about it, and TheSigil shouldn't worry about it either. And neither should you. 

No matter what happens, I don't want to do more than a few stories every year. The focus on the magazine is on the game, after all.

By the way, Coyote, I really appreciate the fact that you subscribe. Thanks for posting your feedback.

I also sympathize with those of you eager to see my response post. I wrote it today, in a fashion, in the form of the editorial for #328. I'll post it here in full, as it serves as a general summary of where I want to take things. But that's tomorrow. Tonight, I sleep. 

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon


----------



## Erik Mona

Olive said:
			
		

> Sure, but if you got a chance to publish some genuinely good fiction, such as George R. R. Martin, would you refuse it because it contains perfectly standard adult language?




Some of you are about to slap your foreheads and really think I'm a fool for this, but I've never read _anything_ by George R.R. Martin, including the short piece he published in Dragon a few years back. I'm aware that this marks me as an ignoramus, and all I can say is that my current staff and the past four editors of Dragon already hold me in contempt for this fact, so the shame of all EN World is only adding insult to injury.

In any event, I'm told that Martin can get a bit "adult" at times, and that words like, oh, let's call it "Mr. F" (to honor Brigitte Nielsen) actually fit perfectly within the world he creates with his words. 

Ok. I'll buy it. Martin gets to be crude because he is almost universally loved. Quite honestly, and I hate to be this crass myself, but I'd probably publish unfinished story fragments from George R.R. Martin, because the guy is so popular and Dragon could use the money. Let's not kid ourselves. The hoard isn't as big as it was in the 1980s, and our boy needs a little respect--in the form of gold pieces. It would be economically unwise to reject a George R.R. Martin story because it would turn off a handful of readers. I probably wouldn't do it. 

I suppose it's possible that some gobsmackingly brilliant writer would send in a short story with a swear word in it. And then I'd have to think long and hard. But I'm frankly shocked it even happened once, and I don't anticipate it happening again. Until then, most of the authors we publish aren't going to go for vulgarity. I'm not worried about it, and TheSigil shouldn't worry about it either.

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Still Not Sleeping


----------



## Greylock

I like your take on this, Erik, and appreciate as well as you the need for an outlet for good fantasy fiction outside the usual mags [which I don't buy].

I said it a page back, but was a'feared to go against the grain, but I will say it now, once more, but in plain view...

I like the fiction. 

Every third or fourth issue is not exactly something that steals major page counts from the other content. Pretty much everyone agrees more fluff, less crunch, so what is fiction, other than well thought out fluff?


----------



## Sholari

Not exactly on topic... but since it seems, Erik, like you have been looking into some revenue generating ideas lately, here are a couple thoughts.

1) You might want to consider renting out your subscriber lists for Dungeon and Dragon magazine.  (If the subscriber base is uncomfortable with that provide them with an opt-in option on their subscription card btw).  You guys could probably get $50/M for the a single rental use and incrementally more depending on how frequently they use the list.  That is for each advertiser that rents the list multiplied by however many times per year they might rent it.  I can't think of a better way to target DMs with some new campaign world or product.  The way you prevent unauthorized usage or someone from spamming the list is to is a trick known as list seeding.  Basically, seed your list with several made-up names going to your own addresses.  If one of those fake names shows up with a direct mail to your address that you did not authorize then you will know about it.  A company called US Monitor provides this service for a relatively low cost.  That way you could keep the list usage to only things that roleplayers would find very useful.

2) For your new catalog section it looks a bit cramped.  You might want to use A/B testing to compare different formats and placements within the magazine and figure out what works the best.  With A/B testing you create two versions of the magazine and then use offer codes that potential buyers can use to quickly pull up the product on your website.  Not all print shops have this capability, however, there are definitely those that do.  

3) If you get into a full-fledged catalog business, here is an article on how to do RFM analysis, which is used by a lot of catalog companies.

http://www.dbmarketing.com/articles/Art149.htm

Hope it helps.


----------



## RPG_Smithy

I would like to buy Dungeon (and maybe Dragon) but the main reason for me not to buy it is... I can not buy it here in switzerland.
I was searching for a while now but it seems as if there isn't one single shop that would sell it.

And as I do not own a credit-card,... 
I can not buy it online!
Well, I have PayPal but I did not found an online store that ships to switzerland and let you pay with PayPal.
If you know one... send me the link! It would be highly appreciated!


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## ShorelisNailo

*Dragon*

For the fact G.Martin for me is just next to the Great Father J.R.R.Tolkien....
As for the dragon,living in a country like Greece is really difficult to find dragon regulary...
I like many parts from the few issues i've read but many times i find some broken rules 
I just want to CONGRATULATE Erik for this thread and for his opinion for fiction books ....I really might be looking with a different eye the Dragon magazine from now on...


----------



## Mouseferatu

Don't worry about not having read Martin, Erik. I haven't either. I started the first book, got a few chapters in, and put it down. It's not that it was bad; it wasn't. Quite well written, in fact. It just wasn't what I was in the mood for at the time, and I haven't gotten back to it as of yet.

Also, I hadn't realized at the time that the series wasn't complete. I won't usually read books that are part of an ongoing series (assuming a single long-running story, as opposed to more episodic stuff) until the series is complete.


----------



## arche

If you're still interested in opinions, here's mine:

Why don't I buy Dragon? It's easy, I don't need it. I've only bought one magazine ever. I was tempted to buy one other, but held off. I just don't have the money to spend on a game accessory that I'm not even motivated to incorporate. I've got a player who subscribes and if he shows me something that's really good that he wants to incorporate for his character, then I'll look it over and possibly do it. That's happened once also. I know others find it a good resource, but when I got back into D&D with 3e after a few years off, I decided to not fall into every suppliment out there. It's costly and time consuming.

Now, I do subscribe to Dungeon. That's a magazine that's well worth the money as it has given ideas for adventures and simply got me through a bunch of tough DM times. I don't use ever issue, but I feel that it's my security blanket. I can't say the same for Dragon. Dragon is not for me and I can't justify subscribing to it/buying it to my wife  .


----------



## Ghostwind

RPG_Smithy said:
			
		

> Well, I have PayPal but I did not found an online store that ships to switzerland and let you pay with PayPal.
> If you know one... send me the link! It would be highly appreciated!



Try FRP Games. I believe they can handle your needs and they do use Paypal.


----------



## Andre

wilder_jw said:
			
		

> Gaming is a hobby for mature people, even if they may be young.  If people are incapable of handling vulgarity -- and God forbid they recognize those times when its use is valid and even necessary -- then they should probably take up something like doily-making.
> 
> D&D is a game about -- among other things -- violence and killing.  I find it completely _bizarre_ that the same people who have no problems with extreme violence have problems with a few words, all of which can be heard 2000 times a day at any middle school in the country.




Sorry to hijack the thread, but I feel this needs to be responded to. I was taught at a very young age that using vulgarity is not a sign of maturity - being able to express oneself without using vulgarity is. It's not a case of being "incapable of handling vulgarity". As Wilder points out, it's commonplace. We deal with it every day. It's a case of *choosing* not to use it. 

I haven't read the passage in question, so I can't speak as to that specific example. I can say that 99 times out of hundred, when someone uses vulgarity, it's not really necessary - it's just lazy, or a habit, or immaturity. Erik seems to present a reasonable approach vis-a-vis Dragon: don't use it, but if you do, he'll consider carefully whether or not including it is appropriate. 





			
				wilder_jw said:
			
		

> These are the people who forced the removal of "demon" and "devil" from D&D.




No we're not. The people who forced D&D in that direction never bothered to read a Dragon magazine, nor play the game, nor understand what they were talking about. Please don't equate us with closed-minded fools who reacted out ignorance and fear.


----------



## Brown Jenkin

On the fiction point. I have no problems sticking with FR/Eb fiction in general. Although certainly if you can get a Major author like Martin you should do so.  What I don't want to see however is using the fiction as a WotC marketing tool. What I am talking about is running excerpts from new books that leave the reader hanging and requiring him to buy the book to learn the conclusion. Stick to short stories that have an end. While I may or may not like the fiction I will definately come away with a bad taste in my mouth if I feel the only reason it is in there is to sell yet another WotC product.


----------



## wizardoftheplains

I was a heavy buyer, but I stopped because it didn't offer me anything anymore. All the writing was similar, the diversity within each issue wasn't there. It also used to fill in the gaps within DnD that is now filled by all the books being published by other publishers. It's no longer unique. And when Dungeon came out you split your buyers. In the beginning, Dragon did it all, the more you define your content into smaller segments the more defined your magazine will become, but you're narrowing down what your mag has to offer.

The last few issues have interested me a bit more, but still, all the other d20 product out there has worn away at it's IP.

Changes:

Richer writing. A good short stories can give a player or gm as many/more ideas as a article on "wands" or "ogres".

Different artwork, change it up. Much of the fantasy art starts to look the same after a while. If it looks the same as what was released last month there is a problem. Keep your identity but keep refreshing your content, and your artists.

Try different features. Like a one-page quick adventure complete with small map that I can pull out. Call them One Knight Stands or some such thing. Collect them over a year. Maybe link them together. Or by themes. Texas monthly used to do a great thing each month. They'd hire an artist to interpret a concept each month with their artwork. Do this for dragon. How would someone illustrate the "concept" of backstabbing...or greed...or evil, etc. This starts to make you magazine something I treasure, rather than something I throw out.

Ads keep your magazine afloat, but try to not let articles become too "ad-like" in their approach. They become fake and consumers can see that.

Good luck.


----------



## Larcen

Nellisir said:
			
		

> ...As you said, there are a ton of review sites online.  There is no void to be filled here. ...




Well, for me, the void that would be filled is knowing that the Dragon review I was reading has a sort of official stamp of approval to it.  I would like to think, hopefully correctly, that when an article in Dragon tells me that a certain reviewed PrC or feat is well balanced, that it truly deserves consideration into my campaign.  

We all know the problems some of the 3rd party material is causing the game system(s), especially in the areas of balance.  I was kind of hoping Dragon could help rein in some of these problems with suggestions on how to avoid them.

Look, this is coming from someone who has been playing the game for over 20 years now.  And Frankly, I am getting old, lazy, and a bit tired of getting buried in rules bloat.  Simply ignoring all the material out there is not that easy.  Especially when I do want to incorporate new and innovative ideas.  But,  where are they?  Do I really need to invest a lot of time and money to find out what's worthwhile and well though out?

[tangent]How did Nintendo revive the home video game console?  By learning what went wrong with the prior ones.  They learned that a glut of poorly made video games started to burn out buyers.  Too much low quality stuff started to make it into the consumers hands until people got to the point that they simply moved on to something else.  So Nintendo said, fine, with OUR game system we will have a Seal of Approval on game cartidges.  That way, the consumers can be assured that they are getting a high quality game for their money.  It worked.  People were even willing to pay more, a LOT more, for game cartidges that they were assured was high quality.
[/tangent]

Is it too much to ask that SOMEONE step up (hopefuly someone with an “official” standing) and start filering all this D20 stuff before this industry relives the past mistakes of another one?

(An acknowleding smile goes out to all the people hard at work in preventing this sort of thing already.  Like this site’s Ennies for instance.)


----------



## Arnwyn

Larcen said:
			
		

> Well, for me, the void that would be filled is knowing that the Dragon review I was reading has a sort of official stamp of approval to it.  I would like to think, hopefully correctly, that when an article in Dragon tells me that a certain reviewed PrC or feat is well balanced, that it truly deserves consideration into my campaign.



Oy. Which Dragon are you reading? When many have said that the feats and PrCs Dragon _itself_ has published are often questionable, I have a hard time believing that some nonsensical "official stamp of approval" will have much of an effect...


			
				Darren said:
			
		

> The Dungeon Delver's Guide might be useful to new players just getting ready for their first delve, but most of the content seemed painfully obvious.
> - On carrying supplies: "... dispensing equipment throughout the party provides the easiest way of dealing with such problems, with strong characters carrying more but weaker characters still taking on some of the load."
> - "Unless the entire party has darkvision, you will need a light source of some kind."
> - Barbarians: "When focusing on power, make Strength your highest ability score."
> I've been playing D&D for only a few years, but I've figured out the importance of marching order, the utility of 10-foot poles, and the need for a light source in dark, creepy places.



That's beautiful, man. I think that might also be one of the major reasons I've recently faded away from Dragon Magazine. The articles really do seem to lack inspiration, and truly do contain _painfully_ obvious material. No wonder I faded to only skimming articles...

If someone who's only been playing for a few years finds that kind of stuff obvious, imagine how someone who's been playing for more than a decade feels. The editors of Dragon have a choice to make, here.


----------



## RFisher

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> An issue of The Strategic Review (Dragon's older brother) included a short article on IOUN stones, with a note that their creator (Vance) had approved of their inclusion in the game. Early Dragons featured a short piece on Fafhrd and Grey Mouser's reaction to modern roleplaying gamers (hilarious, by Leiber himself), a lengthy, serialized piece by Harry O. Fischer on the development of Lankhmar, [...]




Articles about fiction & its relation to the game are a completely different matter than _Dragon_ publishing fiction.



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> If Dragon is to have fiction at all, doesn't it make sense to tie that fiction to the fiction-publishing branch of the Dungeons & Dragons business? There are several other magazines on the market (none of which existed in 1976) poised to publish fantasy by up-and-coming or already popular fantasy authors. But none of those magazines can publish a short story set in Eberron. None of them can run a yarn based on the Red Wizards of Thay. But I can.




Well, that makes sense to WotC. It doesn't necessarily make sense to a _Dragon_ reader, IMHO.

In my experience, the overlap between WotC's RPG customers & their novel customers is pretty small. & the overlap between _Dragon_ subscribers & WotC novel customers is even smaller. (Though, I certainly recognize that you probably have marketing data that is more accurate than my experience.)

I'm sure any magazine publishing fantasy fiction would judge a story set in Eberron the same way they judge any other submission. If the Eberron story isn't getting published outside of _Dragon_, it isn't because it is set in Eberron.



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> But another part of me remembers the 7-year-old who pretty much discovered fantasy through the lens of Dungeons & Dragons. The first edition Dungeon Master's Guide features a reading list that points to Lovecraft, Moorcock, Vance, and Leiber, who still rank as some of my favorite fantasy authors.
> 
> I sometimes wonder if D&D, and hence Dragon magazine, has a sort of responsibility to keep the flame of fantasy fiction alive. That publishing short fantasy fiction in Dragon is a legacy. A responsibility, if you will. If something I put in a magazine can lead a young reader to discover fantasy fiction. . . I dunno. I get sappy sometimes.




I don't think publishing D&D specific fiction is the way to do that. I think the hobby needs to look for inspiration in fiction that is as little inspired by the hobby as possible. Otherwise, it becomes this closed, incentuous loop & the hobby becomes increasingly isolated from the larger genre.

Granted, the issue is larger than _Dragon_, but the magazine can have a strong influence.

Although, I think _Dragon_ would serve its readership better by publishing articles that connect the game & fantasy literature. Rather than publish fiction in the magazine, publish articles that reference & build interest in fiction published elsewhere.

The _Dragon_ articles about adventuring in G.R.R. Martin's world got me interested in his novels much more than a short story in the magazine ever would have. Likewise in the old days with Vance & Lieber.


----------



## Larcen

arnwyn said:
			
		

> Oy. Which Dragon are you reading? When many have said that the feats and PrCs Dragon _itself_ has published are often questionable, I have a hard time believing that some nonsensical "official stamp of approval" will have much of an effect...




So where does that leave me?  Right.  Back to not subscribing again. 

I'm saying I _want_ to trust Dragon and turn to them.  Your saying don't bother.

I thought we were looking for ways to improve the magazine here.


----------



## Buldan

I have to agree with RFisher on his views regarding short stories and Dragon.  So count this as another vote for no fiction.

However, the idea of a Dragon that has similar format to National Geographic in regards to articles really piques my interest.  Minor crunch, much fluff.  Of course, I would prefer the articles not relate particularly to any one world.  Not a big fan of Forgotten Realms or Eberron.

And since I'm posting: Good job on Dungeon, I can't wait to see what you do with Dragon.

edit: so as not to add another post to this already huge thread: Thanks Larcen (see below), hello all! (first post), and I've been lurking longer, got tired of not being able to vote on the polls.


----------



## Larcen

Buldan said:
			
		

> ... However, the idea of a Dragon that has similar format to National Geographic in regards to articles really piques my interest.  Minor crunch, much fluff...




Welcome to the boards, Buldan.  And thanks for saying so succinctly what took me a couple of long posts to do.

(Edit:  I just noticed that you are not exactly new to the boards, you just chose to wait until now to make your first post!  Congrats.)


----------



## mhensley

Here's yet another vote for dropping the fiction.  In the past 25 years, I've had to have read at least a hundred issues of Dragon and I doubt that I've read more than a handful of the short stories in them.  I read novels for fiction and Dragon for info on D&D.  

On the other hand, probably the last issues of Dragon that I bought were the issues dealing the George Martin books.  So it definitively worth it to have fiction on the rare occasion that you can get a well known author to submit a story.


----------



## humble minion

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> But the Dragon of Fox, Leiber, and Fischer came well before the publishers of Dungeons & Dragons began to create multi-novel lines of books aimed squarely at the interests of D&D's players, using the company's beloved campaign settings as backdrops. Wizards of the Coast publishes scores of fantasy books every year. Some of them reach the New York Times best-seller list. Many of them are branded "Dungeons & Dragons" and hew to the conventions of the game.
> 
> If Dragon is to have fiction at all, doesn't it make sense to tie that fiction to the fiction-publishing branch of the Dungeons & Dragons business? There are several other magazines on the market (none of which existed in 1976) poised to publish fantasy by up-and-coming or already popular fantasy authors. But none of those magazines can publish a short story set in Eberron. None of them can run a yarn based on the Red Wizards of Thay. But I can.



 This way lieth madness, I think.

 Dragon should be about expanding people's horizons of what D&D can be.  That's the impression I'm getting from reading all the responses to this thread.  People want articles covering overlooked facets of campaign-building, advice on non-standard settings, etc, etc.

 Restricting Dragon's fiction to FR and Eberron runs the risk of ghettoising the hobby.  You're saying (or at least implying) 'D&D is FR and Eberron'.  What you should be doing, in my opinion, is running a piece of good fiction (from whatever source, based in whatever world or milieu), attaching an article on adapting it to D&D rules, and saying "D&D can be this, too."   

 Fantasy is big, right now.  You've got Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings firmly in the mainstream spotlight, plus Narnia and Dark Materials movies coming up.  None of these can be comfortably shoehorned into base D&D rules.  I want to see D&D (and Dragon) prosper out of this era, not devolve into an insular spell-slots-are-the-only-magic-system, everyone-has-boots-of-speed, every-world-has-paladins-and-beholders backwater.


----------



## Acid_crash

The Martin short story was the only short story I've read in a Dragon Magazine, and when I saw the evil-words-that-are-four-letters-long, I was shocked, amazed, and thought to myself....  Now that's just cool.  Why?  Because Dragon published a short story written by an author who writes the way he does and didn't censor it.  It made it similar to his book series and it fit with the feel of the story he wrote.

To any who had a problem with a couple words, oh well.  

As for the magazine itself...if the fiction was reduced to three to four times per year and it was related to existing worlds (FR, Eberron, DL, Dark Sun, etc)... I would have no problem with that.  

In the end, the reason why Dragon is selling and Dungeon is not is because the primary purchasers of these magazines are Dungeon Masters and you moved all of the good articules to help with DMs becoming better DMs into Dungeon and left Dragon with useless, mindless, and boring articles with lame fiction and bland writing.  It's like, you took the life out of the magazine and put it all in Dungeon... and it seems like you are trying to make up for a couple years of Polyhedron in Dungeon by making Dungeon so great all of a sudden.  

So, what are ya gonna do with Dragon?  

My suggestion... 

put Polyhedron type stuff in with Dragon.  Take out the articles on crap that has nothing to do with gaming...we all know what those are, and put in articles that pertains to d20 in general.  Paizo owns Dragon, not WotC, so WotC (unless I'm wrong) should have no say as to what gets put into the magazine.  

Dungeon should be the DM's magazine, Dragon needs to be the d20 magazine (and also primarily aimed at DM's because they are the ones that say yes or no if something in Dragon is allowed in their games... PLAYERS have NO say in this so don't cater to them).

Repeat:

PLAYERS have NO say in what goes in the game, so DON'T cater to them as much.  DM's are the USUAL buyers of your magazines, so cater to them instead.


----------



## Turjan

humble minion said:
			
		

> This way lieth madness, I think.
> 
> Restricting Dragon's fiction to FR and Eberron runs the risk of ghettoising the hobby.  You're saying (or at least implying) 'D&D is FR and Eberron'.  What you should be doing, in my opinion, is running a piece of good fiction (from whatever source, based in whatever world or milieu), attaching an article on adapting it to D&D rules, and saying "D&D can be this, too."




I agree. I can see the reasoning behind the urge to bring some FR or Greyhawk fiction into Dragon: it's the wish to find a niche in the market for Dragon. Dragon cannot compete on fields where other media are better. Printing fiction in D&D worlds is something that is only possible for an official D&D magazine. Then again, I never read any D&D fiction in my whole life, at least not further than a few paragraphs. I don't want to insult anyone, but IMHO most of it is pretty bland. YMMV, as usual. I'm not sure whether I'm a typical Dragon reader in this regard, either. Anyway, my inspiration comes from SF, historical fiction, history sourcebooks, foreign fairy tales, mythology and stuff like that. The fun is to translate these inspirational pieces into my game. I doubt that FR fiction is able to be similarly inspirational, even though I really like the setting.


----------



## Jeff Wilder

Andre said:
			
		

> Sorry to hijack the thread, but I feel this needs to be responded to. I was taught at a very young age that using vulgarity is not a sign of maturity - being able to express oneself without using vulgarity is.




See, here's the thing ... I didn't say _using_ vulgarity was a sign of maturity.  I said _handling_ the use of vulgarity is a sign of maturity.

Feel free to revise your response to address what I actually said, of course.


----------



## Jeff Wilder

Andre said:
			
		

> Please don't equate us with closed-minded fools who reacted out ignorance and fear.




I honestly can't imagine what other reason you'd have to react in the way TheSigil did.

Personal preference?  That's fine.  Say so and move on, rather than making ultimatums to the editorial staff.

I agree with you that Erik's approach is the right one ... don't _look_ to include vulgarity, but don't automatically turn away from it, either.  Vulgar people behave in vulgar way, and fiction has many and varied reasons to portray vulgar people realistically.  Creating a vulgar character who uses curse words is not lazy, habitual, or immature, and assuming it is any of those things -- even allowing for one exception out of a hundred -- _is_ lazy, immature, and probably habitual.

The irony, of course, is that I _hate_ fiction in _Dragon_, and without fiction, I can't imagine any real reason to include vulgar language.


----------



## humble minion

As an aside on the D&D fiction issue - when has FR or Eberron fiction ever reflected the reality of how the game is played? When was the last time you saw an entire group of fictional characters heading into battle flying, hasted, and invisible? When was the last time a fictional cleric agonised over what spells to prepare, or was left with useless ones at the end of the day? Or when was the last time you saw a character in D&D fiction bedecked with the sort of magic gear (what 10th-level PC mage doesn't own a Headband of Intellect?) that you (and the DMG) would expect a character of his level to own?

 D&D fiction can only really be called that if it follows how D&D works. Most 'D&D fiction' as it exists now is just generic swords and sorcery with Faerunian names stuck on with Clag.


----------



## Ogrork the Mighty

I was going to question how someone could have a problem with vulgarity in fiction when they're playing a game that focuses a heck of a lot of attention on killing and looting but, heh, a lot of others have already made the point rather well. We're not living in the 50s anymore. I don't like anyone telling me what I should and shouldn't read; if you don't like it don't read it.

Regarding the inclusion/exclusion of fiction, why not compromise and include it periodically? That would allow the really good stories to continue to be published while not having to put one in every issue. I think fantasy fiction has a place in Dragon, albeit not a primary one. Remember, Dragon magazine can serve as a good jumping off point for authors who might someday become module writers...


----------



## IronWolf

Ogrork the Mighty said:
			
		

> Regarding the inclusion/exclusion of fiction, why not compromise and include it periodically? That would allow the really good stories to continue to be published while not having to put one in every issue. I think fantasy fiction has a place in Dragon, albeit not a primary one.




I agree with Ogrork here.  Occasionally including fiction is not that big of deal to me.  I enjoy the fiction when it is in there in most cases...


----------



## CarlZog

I'm obscenely late to this party, and my wishes probably contradict most of Dragon's core market, but for whatever it's worth...

I've never been a regular subscriber, but I've read it off and on for many years. I think the first issue I ever bought was somewhere in the 30s. These days, I'll glance at it every now and then on the shelf, but I very rarely buy it. Why?

As others indicated, Dragon has more competition these days, particularly from websites and forums like EnWorld. The "fix" I used to get from Dragon, I get online these days. Likewise, the web offers up endless reams of free material that rivals or bests what Dragon offers.

I'll echo comments that today's Dragon is too dry. This is a hobby, meant to be fun. Dragon doesn't seem to reflect that very well anymore -- either in its editorial mix or in its writing style. Lighten up! This is a problem plaguing D&D in general.

As for the fiction debate, I'd love to see occasional good fiction in Dragon, if it served the purpose of inspiring campaign ideas. Amazing Stories under Kim Mohan fed me with lots of game ideas -- though not much for D&D. I despaired when A.S. folded, and I have little use for its latest incarnation.

I'd prefer Dragon wasn't just D&D. I know the vast majority of folks feel quite the opposite, but I agree with the poster who missed reading about new games in the pages in Dragon, or even discovering new games published in Dragon. (I still have a copy of Orcwars somewhere!) I'd love to see a good, broad-based gaming mag. Or at least a broad-based RPG mag. Tim Kask's Adventure Gaming was my favorite magazine of all time.

I'm also one of the few who thinks Dungeon was awesome when Polyhedron was tagged to it. What a great combo with the d20 mini-games.

These days, I really look forward to the Enworld Player's Journal (now Enworld Gamer). The latest issue (the first under the Gamer title) was a great mix of fun ideas for a variety of rpg genres that kept me glued cover to cover. And the promise of more mini-games has me ready to subscribe. I wish they'd do it more than quarterly.


Carl


----------



## Turjan

I was just reading Dragon 327, which for whatever reason reached me yesterday together with Dungeon 118, and just like to ask whether it is supposed to contain already some of the changes we have to expect?


----------



## Nellisir

CarlZog said:
			
		

> I'll echo comments that today's Dragon is too dry. This is a hobby, meant to be fun. Dragon doesn't seem to reflect that very well anymore -- either in its editorial mix or in its writing style. Lighten up! This is a problem plaguing D&D in general.




I would love, absolutely love, to see a return to a really funny April issue.  Probably half of my "Top 10 Most Thought About Articles" were April's Fools articles, like "1/2 Level Spells" (Detect Traps - Material Component: Fighter of Int 6 or less), "Not Quite the Monstrous Compendium" (Blink Mammoth, and the, ah, duck that changed into a person, but kept the same Intelligence score), and "Bard on the Run".

And those letters.  Those letters were awesome.

I'd also like Dragonmirth back on the back page.

Cheers
Nell.


----------



## RFisher

Acid_crash said:
			
		

> Dungeon should be the DM's magazine, Dragon needs to be the d20 magazine




I repeated that mantra many times during the mutant Dungeon/Polyhedral days. I was told that the readership didn't want non-D&D content at all & would take up torches & pitchforks if it appeared. ))

I wonder, though, if this impression was based on sales or on the feedback of a vocal minority.


----------



## RFisher

CarlZog said:
			
		

> As others indicated, Dragon has more competition these days, particularly from websites and forums like EnWorld. The "fix" I used to get from Dragon, I get online these days. Likewise, the web offers up endless reams of free material that rivals or bests what Dragon offers.




This is a really good point. I've said before that Dragon & Dungeon both need to take some risks & break more out of the just-a-paper-magazine mold if they want to survive.

For instance, allowing subscribers to read the magazine online, read back-issues online, & have a really good search engine for finding articles. Look at SJGames _Pyramid_ as a starting point for how to do this. (Although, they've gone completely electronic now.)


----------



## Narfellus

I don't get Dungeon or Dragon anymore. I got Dragon in the 90's when TSR was around, and picked up the occasional Dungeon. With 3rd edition, Dragon seemed to be nothing but advertisements and prestige classes and monsters and feats and...and...well, stuff i've seen before and elsewhere. Plus, a lot of the stuff was unbalanced. Lastly, i didn't like the Humor anymore. Dragonmirth was a HUGE selling point for me liking the old Dragon, and i also liked the book reviews and the expanded slant on genres and games and companies other than DnD.

Now Dungeon i like, i only wish Polyhedron was still bundled with it. Some of those d20 games were brilliant one-shots. Dungeon is top-notch qualilty, and the maps and art are really truly great, i just don't need that many adventures. I usually write my own, and having 6 new ones a month that wouldn't get used is sort of a waste. If i really want one i'll pick up a single issue after browsing through it.


----------



## Narfellus

RFisher said:
			
		

> This is a really good point. I've said before that Dragon & Dungeon both need to take some risks & break more out of the just-a-paper-magazine mold if they want to survive.
> 
> For instance, allowing subscribers to read the magazine online, read back-issues online, & have a really good search engine for finding articles. Look at SJGames _Pyramid_ as a starting point for how to do this. (Although, they've gone completely electronic now.)




I agree. Enworld is competition, and is indeed a "fix" of gaming that is not dependent on arriving in your mailbox. I recall many times in the past where i got a "lame" issue of Dragon, browsed through it in 5 minutes and had to wait a month for a hopefully better issue. 

I bought the Dragon Archives CD set and really liked it, despite some scanning issues. It was fully searchable and indexed, which was great. I REALLY think that would be a great function to have online, given the capabilities of the internet now. Paizo would have a gazillion hits a day if they offered back issues to browse, even if just selected parts.


----------



## JoeGKushner

RFisher said:
			
		

> For instance, allowing subscribers to read the magazine online, read back-issues online, & have a really good search engine for finding articles. Look at SJGames _Pyramid_ as a starting point for how to do this. (Although, they've gone completely electronic now.)




Yeah, but don't forget that SJG did d20 Weekly too and that tanked. The d20 market is a different animal. Pyramid maintains it's base by being the semi-house organ for GURPS and draws a wide crowd due to the quality of many of it's writers.


----------



## jester47

We waits me precious, we waits!

A.


----------



## velm

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> I'm sure Erik knows that we are not a representative sample. It does seem however that we are not always completely off base. All the old threads about Dungeon did result in changes for the better. I'm fairly confident that if sales had been going well for Dungeon we wouldn't have seen any changes made. While a true marketing survey would be better, they are expensive and we are cheap. Erik also posted on the WotC boards so he is not entirely relying on us.




I would have to say ENWORLD has a sizable community.  It would seem that the level of experience ranges from Publishers to people who have been playing for 20+ years to someone who started two weeks ago.  I am sure people scan some of these posts without joining or providing their two cents.  
Even though I am not in a game now, have a nice selection of 2nd ed stuff, lots of FR stuff, Core 3E, I come here to see what is going on.  I have gone to WOTC site on a few occasions, but I would rather go here.  Why would I rather go here?  I really like DND, it is a fun game.  The streamlining of 3E was just a stroke of genius.  Turning all the saving throws into 3 categories, CR for the monsters are the two biggest things.  They also got rid of alot of little things like, different dam vs creature size, and other annoying things.  Now, time for why I do not go to WOTC all that often.  I was a little upset with 3.5 coming out so soon.  It might be greatest thing since sliced bread, but that soon?  That just irked me.  WOTC just seems so 'corporate.'  Just a little hard to explain.
But, in the end, I think here and at the 'offical' forums, you could probably get the best responses from people.
I put my .2 in earlier over here.  I have not seen a Dragon in years, other than when I look through my Dragon CD archive (great thing btw).  But one thing I hear alot about are how there is the obligatory:  new skills/feats/prestige classes in each and every supplement now.  It sounds like it is happening to Dragon as well.  Now, I love the Bizaar of the Bizare (did i spell that right?) and the ecologies.  Eric made a post about ioun stones.  I remember that article or a smiliar one when i was doing some research on them.  I find those articles to be great.  I am not sure if I am in the minority or majority of people who like the ecologies and where certain certain magic item legacies, ala ioun stones.  Take the Deck of Many things, it would be nice to read an article about the history of that as well.  I like the ecologies because it can give flavor to something that has been reduced to numbers in the MM.  Maybe not all DMs care to know that Bugbears like to roast their captives vice eat them raw, but it can be interesting to provide a mental picture to the players.  Still realizing, that Dragon is mostly for the players, but still had some great stuff in it for everybody.
(I guess you could call this my .4)


----------



## WCrawford

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Since all the fiction we will be printing in the foreseeable future is tied to the Forgotten Realms or Eberron, the standards shown in those stories will match those of the books published under the same brands--which I'm going to assume means no potty mouth.




You know this is the biggest reason I don't read Dragon, the 'flavor of the month/quarter/year/whatever' campaign focus.

I don't mind the fiction as much as some of the others, but if there is going to be fiction, something general and not campaign focused is in order. If I want to read FR fiction, and I do, I'll purchase a novel. I have zero intrest in Eberron.

The next issue I have with Dragon stems from my RPGA activities. About the only D&D I get to play in my busy schedule is the Living Greyhawk campaign (with occasional Living Arcanis supplements). There is absolutely nothing in Dragon that I can use with the Living Greyhawk campaign.

I will leaf throug a mag if I see one and occasionally pick one up if I get intrigued, but I tend to buy less than 1 issue a year.


----------



## Kalothagh

To be honest, I don't know why I don't. I guess it's never really interested me that much. Also, there isn't a lot of roleplay shops where I live and the ones there are are quite limited in their choice.
Having said that, a new shop has opened recently, which might stock the mag, but that would mean looking for it.
I'd rather spend the energy on looking at REAL books on roleplaying, ie. the roleplaying books themselves.


----------



## Umbra

In regards to being able to read Dragon online...

I think having the current editions online could result in the death of the paper version and the people who don't use the web lose out.

However, I would think that people would be more likely to subscribe to Dragon if their subscription allowed them to browse old mags online (from 12 months ago and back perhaps).  You could also get valuable data on what the browsers like or dislike or would like updated to 3.5 or want more of by having a voting system in place for individual articles.

Having forums to discuss particular articles may also generate interest, especially if authors could be involved. (One of the great things about ENWorld is having the authors/designers etc put their 2c in).

Perhaps you can get commentaries from authors of classic articles to revisit them in light of the new edition.

Quality web enhancements only available to subscribers may also help boost numbers.  (I have no idea what the subscriber/shop purchaser numbers are like  but I would assume that converting shop purchasers to subscribers would boost numbers somewhat as they would be buying every issue instead of any that catches there attention).


----------



## Ogrork the Mighty

RFisher said:
			
		

> I repeated that mantra many times during the mutant Dungeon/Polyhedral days. I was told that the readership didn't want non-D&D content at all & would take up torches & pitchforks if it appeared. ))
> 
> I wonder, though, if this impression was based on sales or on the feedback of a vocal minority.




Based on declining subscriptions and the vocal *majority*.


----------



## greymist

My original post is a bunch of pages back, but I wanted to respond to Erik's post about fiction. 

 I don't mind reading the fiction in Dragon, frankly with some issues, it is a way to get away from the articles that I don't like. However, sticking to WOTC-themed fiction will be another nail in the coffin. As you said, WOTC publishes a dozen or two novels each year...if I want to read them I will. The fact of the matter is that I find the majority of the novels to be garbage. If you add it to Dungeon on a regular basis you will be driving me away faster. 

  In regards to your comment about being introduced to many authors by Dragon: so was I...but that was then. 

 IMO you are dealing with a much better educated buyer now. Not in terms of schooling, but in terms of knowing about all of the available products and all of the tie-ins, etc. Marketing in 2004 using 1974 as a model is simply a bad business decision. 

 I expect that the readers of EN World make a pretty good sample for the Dragon market, and from what I can see you should not even be thinking about it...drop the fiction (even though I will miss some of it) and provide more fluff. And if you think that this thread is not representative of your readers, then you sure as heck better be polling your subscribers directly to make sure. 

 I am looking forward to reading your editorial response, I hope you will post a lengthier version here, where your word count is not constrained.

 And finally, I would like to add my voice to those who do not want to see any articles on D&D Miniatures, or computer games....stick to the knitting and write articles on roleplaying games.


----------



## Snapdragyn

The main reason that I shall _soon_ not be buying Dragon magazine, is that Paizo seems unable to provide consistent delivery of it. I have been a subscriber for just over a year, & almost every month I have read the contents here (often for a week or more) before my issue arrives. I still have not received issue 326 & now I see that people are posting about 327!

I contacted customer service about this. Their response? It must be my post office. My reply to THAT comment I include here:



> Greetings,
> 
> This is regarding a Dragon magazine subscription to:
> 
> <name & address>
> 
> I wrote recently that I have had a problem with issues being severely delayed. I still have not received issue 326; at this point I must conclude that it has been missed completely.
> 
> The answer to the previous correspondence was that I should check with my post office. I find it interesting that my post office can deliver my bills on time every month. My post office can deliver junk mail on time every month. My post office can deliver other magazine subscriptions on time every month. Somehow, though, they always manage to be late with my Dragon magazine. I never knew there were so many postal workers who played D&D & were hard up for reading material -- nor so good at rewrapping magazines after apparently holding on to them for a few weeks.
> 
> I regularly post at EN World, & I see other people posting about similar issues with their Dragon magazine accounts. I also regularly post on birdwatching related message boards; interestingly I have never seen a post about someone's issue of Birding, or Audubon, or any other birding-interest magazine being late.
> 
> It is said that only the truth is consistent. I think the consistent factor makes the truth here obvious -- Dragon magazine has poor standards of delivery. I am now on the verge of canceling my subscription; should it reach that point, I would not be so foolish as to buy shelf copies at higher price to continue supporting a business that proved unable to properly provide basic service to its dedicated customers.
> 
> Please let me know what steps are being taken to remedy this, or I shall cancel my subscription.






Content-wise, I've not been pleased with the change -- & I was in the 'wait & see' crowd who thought it sounded reasonable, not one who was already against it before it even happened. The single-page articles are too short to do enough, but one for each class eats up a sizable chunk of an issue. I miss the themed issues; I know that there were complaints about those (oh, nothing in this issue for me!) but I was fine with them because every 'eh' issue seemed to be balanced by an 'omg, EVERY article!' issue during the time I was regularly buying & then subscribing.

But just getting the magazine that I've already paid for -- yeah, that would be sort of nice.


----------



## underthumb

*More historical perspectives and information* 

I loved the information in #326 about sewers and labyrinths. I want to see the hazy intersection between fantasy and real life. I want to see how things are (or were) done in the "real world" to understand how they might be done in fantasy. A recurring section with historical perspectives on just about any subject would make me a subscriber.


----------



## Erik Mona

Snapdragyn,

I am truly sorry to hear about your subscription delays. You have no idea how much it pains me to hear about stuff like that. As you might imagine, as an editor of two magazines I am an absolute control freak, and when things go wrong with an aspect of the business over which I have no control it just drives me through the roof. 

However, as I mentioned in the post above, Paizo has recently taken steps to wrestle this delivery problem to the ground (all previous attempts having failed), and there are signs that the last issues of Dungeon and Dragon have arrived somewhat more swiftly than normal. I know of several posters who have received Dungeon #118, for instance, and I am pretty sure it is not yet available in the stores. Ditto #327, which wasn't on the local newsstands here in Seattle as late as yesterday.

The way the whole thing works is that the magazines are shipped directly from our printer to subscribers immediately after the magazines have been printed. A couple of days later, it goes to the game distributors. A couple of days later, it goes to Curtis Circulation, which handles magazine distribution for thousands of magazines (including, probably, most of the ones you read regularly). These are the people who fulfill newsstand orders. So all of this stuff is in the mail pretty much over the course of the same couple of weeks. Ideally first to subscribers and then to stores shortly thereafter. 

But it's more complicated than that. The magazines are printed in the midwest, so subscribers from Wisconsin, Illinois, and thereabouts are most likely first to receive their magazines. Very possibly within 2-5 days of that magazine being created. 

Often, a poster here on EN World shares the table of contents from his new Dragon a week or so before the office "test" subscription copies arrive in Seattle. 

It takes the magazine a great deal less time to reach someone in the next county than it does to reach someone on the other side of the US. Or (as our beleagured foreign subscribers know) someone in another country altogether. Because some of us (myself included) are so addicted not only to D&D but to posting on Internet message boards, a few gamers love to be the first to post the table of contents or whatever for their new Dragon. These are often among the first people outside the printers to have ever seen the finished magazines, and the minute someone sees that post, their "why don't I have my issue yet" clock starts ticking. We get dozens of letters every month from people complaining that they don't have their issues yet before we get ours in the office. A couple days later, most of these people write us back and let us know that their magazines arrived "after all." Sometimes we in the office still haven't received our own copies yet.

None of that is meant to excuse poor or late delivery of the magazines. I just wanted to give you an idea of how the distribution of the magazines works (or, in some cases, doesn't work). Obviously, if people are writing in and complaining that the magazine is available in stores before they get their subscriber copy that's a problem. It's the kind of problem we always try hard to fix and avoid, and I'm thinking we're well on the way to getting it licked.

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon


----------



## scourger

*late delivery of subscriptions*

Erik,

On the issue of late delivery of subscription magazines, I have only had one recent problem.  I waited a couple of weeks after I saw my magazine (Dungeon) on the shelf at my FLGS.  I called Paizo customer service and promptly received an issue in the mail.  Unfortunately (for Paizo but fortunately for me), I then also received my subscription copy.  I feel guilty about having two copies (even though I will probably use the extra copy when I (hopefully) run the finale of the Shackled City), but it is a testament to your customer service department.  What can I do to even it up with your company?

I also commend you for taking an active role in the evolution of these magazines.  The online community is a small but vocal segment of the gaming community.  If my circle of players is the barometer that I think it is, then the online presence is 20% or less of the gaming demographic.  But, it is almost 100% of your committed customer base.  I think it's awesome that you're getting feedback here, and thanks for letting me sound off about it.


----------



## Theron

The biggest single reason is that I don't have a D&D/D20 game going at present.

 However, beyond that, things just went too far in the direction of crunch for my tastes.  Patrick Y. put it very well back on the first page of the thread.  It's too dry and the inspiration and fun just feels sucked out of it.  Honestly, I doubt I'm Dragon's target audience: I'm not interested in scads of new prestige classes, I'm at least a year behind on new WoTC purchases, and I have yet to actually play 3.5.  Ultimately, I missed an issue or two and realized I really hadn't missed out on anything I needed.


----------



## The_Universe

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Snapdragyn,
> 
> I am truly sorry to hear about your subscription delays. You have no idea how much it pains me to hear about stuff like that. As you might imagine, as an editor of two magazines I am an absolute control freak, and when things go wrong with an aspect of the business over which I have no control it just drives me through the roof.
> 
> However, as I mentioned in the post above, Paizo has recently taken steps to wrestle this delivery problem to the ground (all previous attempts having failed), and there are signs that the last issues of Dungeon and Dragon have arrived somewhat more swiftly than normal. I know of several posters who have received Dungeon #118, for instance, and I am pretty sure it is not yet available in the stores. Ditto #327, which wasn't on the local newsstands here in Seattle as late as yesterday.
> 
> The way the whole thing works is that the magazines are shipped directly from our printer to subscribers immediately after the magazines have been printed. A couple of days later, it goes to the game distributors. A couple of days later, it goes to Curtis Circulation, which handles magazine distribution for thousands of magazines (including, probably, most of the ones you read regularly). These are the people who fulfill newsstand orders. So all of this stuff is in the mail pretty much over the course of the same couple of weeks. Ideally first to subscribers and then to stores shortly thereafter.
> 
> But it's more complicated than that. The magazines are printed in the midwest, so subscribers from Wisconsin, Illinois, and thereabouts are most likely first to receive their magazines. Very possibly within 2-5 days of that magazine being created.
> 
> Often, a poster here on EN World shares the table of contents from his new Dragon a week or so before the office "test" subscription copies arrive in Seattle.
> 
> It takes the magazine a great deal less time to reach someone in the next county than it does to reach someone on the other side of the US. Or (as our beleagured foreign subscribers know) someone in another country altogether. Because some of us (myself included) are so addicted not only to D&D but to posting on Internet message boards, a few gamers love to be the first to post the table of contents or whatever for their new Dragon. These are often among the first people outside the printers to have ever seen the finished magazines, and the minute someone sees that post, their "why don't I have my issue yet" clock starts ticking. We get dozens of letters every month from people complaining that they don't have their issues yet before we get ours in the office. A couple days later, most of these people write us back and let us know that their magazines arrived "after all." Sometimes we in the office still haven't received our own copies yet.
> 
> None of that is meant to excuse poor or late delivery of the magazines. I just wanted to give you an idea of how the distribution of the magazines works (or, in some cases, doesn't work). Obviously, if people are writing in and complaining that the magazine is available in stores before they get their subscriber copy that's a problem. It's the kind of problem we always try hard to fix and avoid, and I'm thinking we're well on the way to getting it licked.
> 
> --Erik Mona
> Editor-in-Chief
> Dragon & Dungeon



 Erik, 

I've had a few odd problems with late (or non-) arrivals, but in those few events, your customer service staff has always taken care of them quickly, and with the attitude one would expect.  

In my VERY limited interactions with the people at Dragon and Dungeon, I have nothing but positive things to say, and though I miss certain things about past formats that have already been lamented here, I wish you guys the absolute best for both magazines!  

Now if only I could hear back about my article submissions...


----------



## Brown Jenkin

I guess I need yet more understanding of subscription deliveries. I subscribe to several weekly magazines and recieve them no more than 2 days after press (content covering current events shows when it had to be printed). Obviously they are using a different distribution method since anything more than 2-3 days on delivery would put them out of buisness. This also shows that you can't place the blame on the US Postal system.


----------



## Turjan

Snapdragyn said:
			
		

> I contacted customer service about this. Their response? It must be my post office.



I would not dismiss this comment as completely unfounded. I live in the Phoenix metropolitan area, so mail delivery should not be a problem. Anyway, for more than half a year, I never got the account balances from my bank, although I got every other junk imaginable; it was always returned. The bad thing about this is that my bank took a fee of $10 each time, because my address was "invalid". I had numerous talks with the bank, checked the address countless times, all to no avail.

Then I called my post office and complained to the supervisor for mail delivery. From this day on, everything went fine .


----------



## underthumb

Brown Jenkin-



> I guess I need yet more understanding of subscription deliveries. I subscribe to several weekly magazines and recieve them no more than 2 days after press (content covering current events shows when it had to be printed).




Erik stated that those who get their magazines first are usually very close to the printers. Isn't it possible that this is the case for your weekly magazines?

Granted, it may not be true, but it's one thing to consider.


----------



## cyferwolf

mostly play as a PC and the looks have never been what drew me to the magazine. Im purely looking for things to use. anything that gives me an idea, something new for my characters, something that i know a friend can use, or soemthing i want to use in a future character. not necessarily crunchy bits either, stories, roleplaying tips, anything that new and interesting. I don't buy it when I can't find anyhting I can use or would want to use. the style of th magazine doesn't really bare on what i get, its whether or not thew content is interesting. What I really like is when you guys go back into some of the older 1e and 2e stuff and update it, and when you just go way out into left field and try and create something new and weird. 

hopefully some of this makes some sense.


----------



## Nellisir

underthumb said:
			
		

> Brown Jenkin-
> Erik stated that those who get their magazines first are usually very close to the printers. Isn't it possible that this is the case for your weekly magazines?
> 
> Granted, it may not be true, but it's one thing to consider.




Option 1: The weekly mags may ship under a higher priority (read: faster) stamp than the general printed literature that most mags go under.

Option 2: The weekly mags may ship (overnight) to regional distribution centers, and then to customers, rather than from a single point in the nation, so they can speed up delivery. 

Cheers
Nell.


----------



## Greylock

Turjan said:
			
		

> I would not dismiss this comment as completely unfounded. I live in the Phoenix metropolitan area, so mail delivery should not be a problem..




FWIW, received a card in the mail the other day, last week. It was mailed on and postmarked November 8th. From Raleigh, NC to Memphis. No marks or anything on the card to suggest where it had been waylaid. Don't want to make too much of it, 'cause when all is said and done I think our Postal service/system is one heck of a deal. But then...


----------



## coyote6

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I know of several posters who have received Dungeon #118, for instance, and I am pretty sure it is not yet available in the stores.




FWIW, the FLGS in Monterey has copies. Someone in my group picked up a copy yesterday, and brought it to the game.

(The map rocks.)


----------



## RFisher

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Yeah, but don't forget that SJG did d20 Weekly too and that tanked. The d20 market is a different animal. Pyramid maintains it's base by being the semi-house organ for GURPS and draws a wide crowd due to the quality of many of it's writers.




I believe the biggest problem _d20 Weekly_ had finding an audience was that it was published by SJGames. I love SJGames, but they aren't the top of people's go-to list for d20 content.

Paizo, however, is publishing the official magazines of the most important d20 game published. A game published not only by the biggest d20 publisher, but by the biggest roleplaying game publisher. _Dragon_ has access to (at least) an order of magnitude more eyes than those who probably ever even knew _d20 Weekly_ existed.

And while a subscription-based online magazine might be a really tough business model right now, a traditional print magazine is becoming increasingly a tough business model. Combining a print magazine with a online subscriber-only archive might be a winning combination at the moment.

It would be interesting, however, to then give subscribers the option to not get the print mag & see how many just read it online. (Or download it & print it.)

The online edition could indeed endanger the print edition, but any print magazine is endangered these days. Of the few of my favorites from days gone by that have managed to survive, many have been reduced to mere pamphlets. Shadows of their former glory. If the print edition dies, the real culprit will be that there aren't enough people willing to pay for it to support it.

That being said, I would--if I were in charge--consider delaying online content a month or two or _not_ giving the option to only subscribe online in order to give the paper edition a +1 bonus.


----------



## Acid_crash

IF they ever put in subscription ONLY stuff that the paying customer would not get at the counter than I will never buy the magazine.  Why should the people who are paying MORE get LESS stuff?


----------



## DragonLancer

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?
> 
> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?
> 
> I very much appreciate your time and attention.




1. Because its too much new/optional rules based than helpful articles.

2. Drop the number of new rules/spells/feats/PrC's...etc, and go more helpful articles.


----------



## JVisgaitis

So Erik, we ever going to get a response to the changes your planning, or do I need to keep checking this thread every few days for nothing? Come on man, you said tomorrow like 5 days ago. What's the scoop?


----------



## Erik Mona

We had a meeting to discuss this thread on Friday, and I've been putting Dragon to bed since then. Expect something shortly.

--Erik


----------



## jester47

Acid_crash said:
			
		

> IF they ever put in subscription ONLY stuff that the paying customer would not get at the counter than I will never buy the magazine.  Why should the people who are paying MORE get LESS stuff?




Because a subscription is garunteed money in the bank.  A news stand purchase is not.  Thus they make a subscription a better deal as more subscribers gives a more predictable stream of income...

A.


----------



## Muad'dib Pendragon

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> We had a meeting to discuss this thread on Friday, and I've been putting Dragon to bed since then. Expect something shortly.
> 
> --Erik




*bump*


----------



## Hjorimir

*What keeps me coming back...*

Well, I was nearing the end of my current subscription and considered just letting it run out as the magazine was getting more and more useless to me. Then I saw a post here at ENWorld about how both Dragon and Dungeon were getting few formats.

Reading about those formats made one thing clear to me: I must have Dungeon (which I now have a subscription to that magazine). Dragon, on the other hand, still seemed to be dying. I did renew my subscription, because one of the last issues I received fell apart on me and after I sent an e-mail to customer service I had a new issue in my mailbox within the week. That tells me you guys care. Because you care, I'm holding on hoping the magazine will improve. This thread confirms your efforts in this.

What I personally want out of your magazines (both Dungeon and Dragon), are things that save me time. I'm a working professional and have a limited amount of time I can (or am willing) put towards this hobby that I love so very much. I will list some points I hope you consider.

1) I have a three-foot stack of hardback rule books for the game. I need more crunch like a need a hole in my head. What I DO need is for somebody to take that pile of crunch and produce some things for me to save me some preparation time. How about NPCs that make up adventure groups? They would be very useful to just drop into a campaign for the PCs to meet. It is a major hassle to write up a bunch of detailed NPCs, but there are other adventurers out there. As an added bonus, players could use these characters if needed. Or a DM could prepare an adventure around the group in the article and run a one-shot.

2) Please bring back Knights of the Dinner Table! That is the only cartoon I ever laughed at on a constant manner. I can recall friends coming over to my house and asking me if the new magazine was there just so they could read that one comic strip. It is that good.

3) Miniature articles need to go away. I don't think I've read through an entire one yet (and I've tried).

4) Open up the guidelines to the writers so they can wrap a little fiction and fluff into their submissions. I'm not interested in a text book. I look to these magazines for flavor (Dungeon, by the way, is quite favorable).

5) I'd like to see articles that are more easily dropped into an existing campaign setting. Things that come to mind are guilds, monsters (and I don't just want a stat block), mysterious locations (i.e. The Wailing Caves of Ip-Tho), treasure hoards (by EL and with a few items that are a bit different), and magic items (you have this some already, but I'd like to encourage more of it).

6) Resist the temptation of new feats. They just increase the problem of power creep in the game and are rarely balanced. I have books and books with feats in them.

7) Look at areas of the game that are not covered well. Some rules that could use some love (off the top of my head): Fleeing (chase scenes), Ship-to-Ship encounters on the open waters, and Underwater encounters and adventuring.

8) There are rules that could really benefit from having some life breathed into them such as summoning/binding outsiders and planar travel.

9) Dungeons and Dragons has evolved a great deal and players are craving more and more high-level content. It is very easy for a DM to whip up a group of humanoids for the lower levels. How about some articles on planar NPCs or locations? For example, maybe one article that looked a floating crystal castle on the Plane of Air and a follow-up with some NPCs that dwell there. Djinns, mephits, elementals, dragons! All great stuff we see too little of.

Anyway, enough of my ramblings. I'm really looking forward to what you come up with.


----------



## The_Universe

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> We had a meeting to discuss this thread on Friday, and I've been putting Dragon to bed since then. Expect something shortly.
> 
> --Erik



 I'd still really like to see this.


----------



## TerraDave

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> We had a meeting to discuss this thread on Friday, and I've been putting Dragon to bed since then. Expect something shortly.
> 
> --Erik



 We are never going to see this, right?


----------



## Erik Mona

I wrote about three pages worth of my "final" response to this thread on Saturday, but my computer locked up and I lost it all. I'm hoping to carve out some time this afternoon.

--Erik


----------



## The_Universe

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I wrote about three pages worth of my "final" response to this thread on Saturday, but my computer locked up and I lost it all. I'm hoping to carve out some time this afternoon.
> 
> --Erik



 Thanks for the time.  Looking forward to seeing it.


----------



## TerraDave

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I wrote about three pages worth of my "final" response to this thread on Saturday, but my computer locked up and I lost it all. I'm hoping to carve out some time this afternoon.
> 
> --Erik



 I feel your pain.

And, like so many, I really appreciate this thread and your other posts and am full of anticipation for that reply. Thanks


----------



## Breakdaddy

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I wrote about three pages worth of my "final" response to this thread on Saturday, but my computer locked up and I lost it all. I'm hoping to carve out some time this afternoon.
> 
> --Erik




How about a brief synopsis?


----------



## sjmiller

Mr. Mona,
I realize that I am a bit late on responding to the questions you asked, but I have not been reading this thread until recently.  That being said, and realizing that my comments may be similar to a tale told by an idiot* I will answer your two questions.

Why don't I subscribe to Dragon?  There have been a number of reasons.  I subscribed twice in the past.  Once, back in the 1980s, I subscribed for about six years.  When 3rd Edition came out I again subscribed, but this time for just a year.  I don't subscribe now partially because the format of the magazine got to be hard to read.  Poor color choices of backgrounds and fonts made some text nearly impossible for me to read.  If large chunks of the magazine are illegible, why would I pay for it?

I also stopped subscribing because I frankly had more than enough prestige classes, uber-feats, and over-powered spells.  Since my players do not seem to care for prestige classes I stopped reading them.  Besides, many of them seemed to be designed as an excuse to circumvent one rule or another.  This is even more evident in the feats that appeared in the magazine.  They seem to be designed to allow more and faster monster killing.  Not every campaign is designed around the wholesale slaughter of creatures.  Few of the feats seem to be designed for non-genocidal games.  This can also be said quite easily for all the spells I have seen.  I don't need more rules to circumvent the existing rules.  Heck, I don't even need a bunch of the existing rules, but that is just a personal belief.

What can be done to make me buy the magazine again?  Well, that's tough.  More articles on playing the game instead of adding feats, spells, classes, adn the like.  I would be happy to see articles on topics like: unusual weapons from history; using the real world as your fantasy base; cities from history (bring back Ken Hite!); and anything that adds depth and character to the game.  

Another thing that can be done is a little harder to explain.  I feel that the last year or so I subscribed the magazine seemed to think I was 12 years old with a poor education.  It just felt like I was being talked down to, treated as if I couldn't grasp complex writing or speech.  I play in two D&D groups, both of which have an average age well above 21.  Only one player actually subscribes to Dragon anymore.  The rest consider it a kids magazine now.

To help in flogging the expired equine, I rather enjoy some of the fiction in the magazine.  Those times are when well established authors write stories that have nothing to do with published campaign worlds.  Quite a number of fiction pieces I have seen are of marginal quality, to be generous.

I am sure I could come up with a host of semi-helpful suggestions, but the best one I can tell you is this: Treat your readers like adults with a desire to see quality material and you can't go too far wrong.


----------



## Erik Mona

Ok. Here we go. 

First off, I want to thank everyone who has participated in this discussion. One of my favorite parts of this job is that so many of our readers (and even those who have given up on the magazine for one reason or another) are so very passionate about Dragon. Like many of you, I grew up with Dragon, and as a reader I have seen it through periods of glory and slumber. During those times, the game itself has seen periods of creative renaissance and creative torpor, but Dragon has always remained. Now that I'm at the helm, it's my job to ensure that it not only remains but thrives for as long as I'm associated with it (which I hope to be a very long time).

When I inherited the magazine, I did so with an appreciation for the hard work that went into the #323 relaunch, but with a strong conviction that something essential was missing, and in fact had been missing from the magazine for a good long while.

One of the strengths of the robust 3.0 and 3.5 D&D rules system is that, for really the first time ever, the rules have been built upon a coherent foundation with obvious elements left for further expansion. In the earliest days of Dragon, what many readers and posters to this thread consider the magazine's "golden" era, a great deal of space in the magazine was dedicated to simply fixing or explaining a fairly complex, not altogether unified game filled with countless sub-systems and a fair amount of arbitrary architecture. The new game requires less of that, which removes or at least heavily modifies a whole subset of articles, which I call "How The Heck Does it Work" articles.

But the strength of the system can sometimes be a creative crutch, as well. My sense is that _because_ the rules system is so strong, many publishers tend to focus on the rules nearly exclusively, to the point at which a "big picture" is lost.

Dungeons & Dragons, in my view, is a game about thrilling fantasy adventure. The rules are the means to the end of thrilling fantasy adventure, but they cannot be an end unto themselves. Dragon's biggest hurdle is that, for a good long while, I think it has been far too focused on the "solid rules" part of the equation and not nearly focused enough on the "thrilling fantasy adventure" part of the equation.

This problem is not unique to Dragon magazine. Even Wizards of the Coast has made some subtle changes to recent products, adding more descriptive elements to monster books, adding ties to supported campaign settings in things like Monster Manual III, and expanding the standard prestige class format to add additional emphasis on cultural and roleplaying details. Many d20 publishers, looking for a niche in a very crowded marketplace, took this step a good while back, and I contend that the more popular d20 publishers are those that publish books that offer inspiration over reams and reams of new rules material. Now that we're all mired in countless feats and prestige classes, the pendulum is starting to swing in the opposite direction.

That the rules are solid must be assumed. That is, after all, what you put your money down for. My contention is that Dragon must provide more than just solid rules. Solid rules are a given. Dragon must provide compelling context for those rules that practically demands that you use them in your campaigns.

Solid rules are the means to the end of thrilling fantasy adventure. Dragon must be about thrilling fantasy adventure.

So, to those of you who say "Dragon has too much crunch and not enough fluff," I offer my whole-hearted agreement. Give me a couple months, and take another look.

Does this mean a full retreat from the recent relaunch? By all means no. What it does mean is a refinement in the balance of rules versus inspirational material. The "Dragon Unleashed" relaunch gave us solid formats to introduce a new PC race in the form of "Winning Races," for example, but six issues later I am left with the conviction that we simply don't need to be running "Winning Races" every single issue. Very few D&D players realistically create 12 new characters a year, so we'll be easing off this feature a little. Ditto "Gaining Prestige," but perhaps even moreso. We will of course continue to publish prestige classes, but we'll try to do so only when there's a really good reason, surrounded by all sorts of compelling cultural and roleplaying information.

Here's what's basically staying every issue: Ecology, Spellcraft, Bazaar of the Bizarre, Sage Advice, Class Acts. Everything else, including "Silicon Sorcery" and "Novel Approach," will pop in and out as necessary. We'll probably be adding a review section to the magazine to spotlight useful sourcebooks and nonfiction volumes that can help you craft a better campaign or a better character, but I want to get the format right before I take that plunge. We're currently retooling "Under Command" in a way that I think will make the column much more palatable to readers who aren't interested in the miniatures game, but who are looking for excellent articles for the RPG.

We'll probably reshuffle the cartoons a little. I think the magazine needs some new blood on that score.

Here's an idea of a few of the things I've already slated:

329: My favorite article in this issue is "Demonomicon of Iggwilv: Pazuzu," an 8,000-word overview of the demonic Prince of the Lower Aerial Kingdoms, his cult, and his thralls, by Dungeon Managing Editor James Jacobs. The first in an irregular series on the demon lords and princes of Dungeons & Dragons.

330: Into the Far Realm, a 10,000-word overview on how to add Far Realm "bleed" into your material world, by Bruce R. Cordell, creator of the Far Realm and one hell of a creative genius. Contains new monsters, new spells, and a whole lot of disturbing imagery. Anyone wanting to add an element of cosmic horror to their games would do well to check out this primer.

Later: Articles on cities of the Forgotten Realms by Ed Greenwood. Look for 4-6 of these annually for as long as we can get away with it. Probably about 5000 words each. Meaty. I'm basically just letting Ed go wild with these, and we'll be sure to illustrate them lavishly with "National Geographic"-style fold-out maps and maybe some posters. I'll do what I can afford to do.

Also: Speaking of the Forgotten Realms, I've also got Eric L. Boyd working on a short series of articles on lost empires of the Realms and the items and cultural legacies that remain to this day. Although Eric is weaving these tightly into the Realms continuity, we're trying to make them easily adaptable to just about any campaign.

But I Like Eberron!: So do we, which is why I've commissioned Keith Baker to write about a half-dozen articles on various Eberron topics including the Cult of the Dragon Below and other exciting setting elements. The first of these will cover the Umbragen, the Shadow Elves of Eberron, and ought to appear by #333.

Thanks to the OGL, anyone on Earth can publish endless lists of feats and prestige classes. But only Dragon and Wizards of the Coast can show off great elements from the official campaign settings, and I'd be a fool to pass up that opportunity. 

But we'll also include plenty of non-setting support. Some of my favorite articles from the recent years have been "Campaign Components," like the Swashbuckler and Spies issues. Look for more of this in the coming months.

To be clear, while Dungeon is the magazine for DMs, Dragon is the magazine for D&D enthusiasts of all stripes, so look for material that speaks to both players and DMs. Class Acts really speaks directly to the casual player--those guys in every campaign who only own the Player's Handbook, or maybe not even that. It's a monthly place for them to turn for easy-to-digest articles about their favorite class, meant to be read at the game table during a break. The continued success of the hobby revolves around converting these folks into more active players, so in my view Class Acts is absolutely critical and is staying. We'll do what we can to make each installment as inspiring and exciting as possible, for novices as well as old hands.

I don't have much to say about fiction that I haven't said already. I'm aware that most posters here don't like it. I have yet to make any critical decisions on what must be done. In the mean time, we're printing something like three or four stories a year, so those of you who hate the fiction won't have to suffer much.

As to the general comment that the magazine is "too boring," well, it's my hope that cutting down the repetitive "familiars" (or at least the frequency with which they appear) will allow for more room for dynamic features. Also, see my comments above vis a vis the crunch/fluff ratio.

Just in case I haven't been clear: Dragon as I see it still contains plenty of rules and rules advice. It just does so within a larger (and I hope) more interesting context.

"Heroic Feats," as a section, will not appear again for precisely this reason. We will publish additional feats, but probably only three or four in a given article to illustrate some theme of the article in question. Instead of 12 sea-related feats, we'll more likely publish an article on sea adventuring, with a small handful of feats within.

I'm sure I'm forgetting something. If you've been waiting for a specific issue to be addressed and I've missed it, let me know and I'll do my best to respond.

I want to make one thing clear. As long as I am associated with Dragon magazine, I will ALWAYS strive to make it a more compelling, more successful magazine. I'll do that by trusting the feedback provided by our readers in threads like this, by listening to trusted peers, and by listening to my trusted (and ever-expanding) gut. The work is never finished, and the magazine can always get better.

My hope is that by the time I move on, a great deal more of you will be happier with the magazine than you were when I arrived.

I thank you for your time, your comments, and your enthusiasm for our favorite magazine.

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon Magazines


----------



## Emiricol

Nicely written, and thank you for taking time to address all the people who care enough about Dragon to have posted here.  I know I'd love to see "that spark" come back that made me a fan of the magazine so many years ago.

 Oh, and also - some real world information encapsulated and wrapped into gaming related information would be most welcome.  Historical nobility systems, for example (which don't follow the King/Duke/Count/Baron ranking model much).  Or a real-world castle done in D&D terms with additions for use in a magical system like D&D.

 Just a thought.

 In any case, I'll be keeping an eye out on the direction of Dragon, as I am sure a lot of us will, and hope to see some inspiration coming my way once again!


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## ecliptic

Greyhawk, Greyhawk, and more Greyhawk! 

Eberron and Forgotten Realms fans have constant supply of new books coming out. Greyhawk gets nothing but a bunch of loosely tied and poorly connected generic stuff found in D&D. What have Greyhawk fans gotten in Wizards sourcebooks lately? Initiate feats to a few of the Greyhawk gods in the PHB. Yet those gods are as flavourless as most of the generic D&D stuff and are practically no longer Greyhawk gods.

Theres all kinds of stuff that can be explored and written about in Greyhawk. 

Iuz
Vecna including his Eye and Hand
Scarlet Brotherhood
Axe of the Dwarvish Lords
Circle of Eight
Ring of Five
Greyhawk itself
Furyondy
Blackmoor
Detailed descriptions of the PHB gods
All the gods not yet printed
and countless more.

How about doing an entire article on a region and putting a newer formatted Regional feat with the article?

How about detailed information on the Scarlet Brotherhood and an Assassin class or a Prestige Class added with it?

How about an entire article on the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords with the artifact fully statted?


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## Eosin the Red

Sounds interesting. Can't wait to read Pazuzu.


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## reanjr

I just want to say FANTASTIC!

It looks like I will be renewing after all.  I agree with every single one of the changes you have mentioned.  On a more specific note, some of my favorite articles have been the Campaign Components ones.  I am very happy to see more of them coming.


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## Allanon

This actually makes me want to find a way to subscribe to it here in the Netherlands (anyone have experience with this?)... or otherwise find a shop which actually sells it within a reasonable time after release.

Keep up the good work Erik


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## Impeesa

I know this is going back a ways, but I wanted to add something to this..



			
				Umbra said:
			
		

> However, I would think that people would be more likely to subscribe to Dragon if their subscription allowed them to browse old mags online (from 12 months ago and back perhaps).  You could also get valuable data on what the browsers like or dislike or would like updated to 3.5 or want more of by having a voting system in place for individual articles.




Discover magazine has article summaries online, from 1992 up to the current issue, and subscribers can search and read full articles (including diagrams, etc). It's pretty cool. I've used it before, and that's not even the sort of magazine that I regularly go searching through back issues of. Dragon, on the other hand, is. 

Obligatory on-topic response: I don't buy Dragon because I barely have the budget to keep up on the odd book that interests me, and I don't often get to play consistantly enough to make use of it properly. 

--Impeesa--


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## Acid_crash

You want to know something else you can bring back...something we haven't seen in a long time...

Bring back the DRAGON annual magazines, the once a year special that has something of really everything.  

Why was it gotten rid of in the first place???


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## Malic

Wow. I'm sold.
Thanks very much Eric for this thread - for asking, for listening, and for replying so well.
I was negative about Class Acts when I posted earlier, but after your explanation I appreciate why they'll be staying. It sounds like there will be enough else in there for me   
Reading what's coming up over the longer term, I'm even considering subscribing for the first time, if I'll get my copy the same week it appears in stores. Any Aussies out there have advice about that?
Cheers!


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## GreyShadow

Thanks for the responce Erik.

Any thought on the Ecology articles returning to their older format?


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## JoeGKushner

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Here's what's basically staying every issue: Ecology, Spellcraft, Bazaar of the Bizarre, Sage Advice, Class Acts. Everything else, including "Silicon Sorcery" and "Novel Approach," will pop in and out as necessary. We'll probably be adding a review section to the magazine to spotlight useful sourcebooks and nonfiction volumes that can help you craft a better campaign or a better character, but I want to get the format right before I take that plunge. We're currently retooling "Under Command" in a way that I think will make the column much more palatable to readers who aren't interested in the miniatures game, but who are looking for excellent articles for the RPG.




Where's the Dragon's Bestiary? And for Under Command, it would have to be retooled so massively that it in essence goes to the magazine that should handle it, Undefeated.



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 329: My favorite article in this issue is "Demonomicon of Iggwilv: Pazuzu," an 8,000-word overview of the demonic Prince of the Lower Aerial Kingdoms, his cult, and his thralls, by Dungeon Managing Editor James Jacobs. The first in an irregular series on the demon lords and princes of Dungeons & Dragons.




Fantastic. Hopefully it has some sidebars on other deities and demons that fit like the Ebon Maw. Maybe we'll see some of the Devils covered this way too? Some descriptions about the actual game differences between lord and prince?



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 330: Into the Far Realm, a 10,000-word overview on how to add Far Realm "bleed" into your material world, by Bruce R. Cordell, creator of the Far Realm and one hell of a creative genius. Contains new monsters, new spells, and a whole lot of disturbing imagery. Anyone wanting to add an element of cosmic horror to their games would do well to check out this primer.



 Once again, fantastic. Bruce R. Cordell is one of my favorite authors. My only request woudl be revisiting the Sheens after this and updating both articles and expanding them. But the Far Realm will hold me over for quite a while... yes indeed. Will there be any sidebars about WoTC Call of Cthulhu game or updates to it for 3.5 fixes?



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Later: Articles on cities of the Forgotten Realms by Ed Greenwood. Look for 4-6 of these annually for as long as we can get away with it. Probably about 5000 words each. Meaty. I'm basically just letting Ed go wild with these, and we'll be sure to illustrate them lavishly with "National Geographic"-style fold-out maps and maybe some posters. I'll do what I can afford to do.



 Maybe I'm alone, but Ed's game writing tends to be solid. His Wyrms of the North campaign provided me with literally years of gaming material. I hate his fiction and I can say that about both his FR fiction and his Band of Four stuff but his gaming material has always had a certain flavor to it that  fits my campaign well.



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Also: Speaking of the Forgotten Realms, I've also got Eric L. Boyd working on a short series of articles on lost empires of the Realms and the items and cultural legacies that remain to this day. Although Eric is weaving these tightly into the Realms continuity, we're trying to make them easily adaptable to just about any campaign.



 In that weaving, will there be sidebars for certain campaigns like Eberron and Greyhawk, or will it be more along the lines of general notes?



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> But I Like Eberron!: So do we, which is why I've commissioned Keith Baker to write about a half-dozen articles on various Eberron topics including the Cult of the Dragon Below and other exciting setting elements. The first of these will cover the Umbragen, the Shadow Elves of Eberron, and ought to appear by #333.



 Hopefully, we'll see some more articles about psionics and Eberron. Some more racial material for the warforged and other new races, at least until Races of Sharn comes out.



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> --Erik Mona
> Editor-in-Chief
> Dragon & Dungeon Magazines




One thing I'd like to see added, is something for existing PrCs, say starting with those from the DMG, that breaks down the PrC like Races of Destiny did. Only seven PrCs and lots of details for use, organizations, etc... in the game world.


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## Belen

Great stuff, Eric.  That is exactly the types of articles that would get me reading the magazine cover to cover again.  These changes looks to make everyone happier and if it continues, then I will be re-subscribing when my current subscription ends.


----------



## schporto

Erik, one minor tweak I'd love to see is with Class Acts.  I like them, but they always seem short.  I wonder if they could be two pages instead of one.  And have alternate what classes appear when.  That may be a tall order, or it may not be well recieved, but it is one more opinion. 
In a similar vein Ecology and Winning Races articles seemed to fill similar niches.  But if Winning Races is going away that's all good then.
Fiction four times a year is, I think, a great balance.
And Erik, thanks.  I do look forward to Dragon every month.  And I think you're doing a great job.
-cpd


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## francisca

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> So, to those of you who say "Dragon has too much crunch and not enough fluff," I offer my whole-hearted agreement. Give me a couple months, and take another look.



 

let me repeat that:

 

Thanks for listening to the fans, Erik.  I wish you the best of luck.  3 issues left on my sub, and I just may yet re-up.


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## DungeonmasterCal

While I really don't give a fig about the Forgotten Realms or Eberron and am a big proponent of crunch over fluff, I look forward to the revamping.  I love Dragon mag, and have been reading it without missing an issue since issue #117, as well as managing to find nearly 2/3 of the issues prior to that in the intervening years.  I've been a fan through all the good and bad "phases" of the magazine, and will continue to be a faithful reader.  

Thanks, Erik, for taking the time and effort to really pay attention to what your readers think.  This sort of "hands on" approach to anything these days is a rare gem, indeed. 

Happy Holidays, and keep up the good work!


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## Swiftbrook

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I'm sure I'm forgetting something. If you've been waiting for a specific issue to be addressed and I've missed it, let me know and I'll do my best to respond.
> 
> --Erik Mona
> Editor-in-Chief
> Dragon & Dungeon Magazines






			
				ecliptic said:
			
		

> Greyhawk, Greyhawk, and more Greyhawk!



 *YES!* 




			
				ecliptic said:
			
		

> What have Greyhawk fans gotten in Wizards sourcebooks lately?



I think *someone*   wrote a couple nice of articles in Dragon about regional feats in Greyhawk.




			
				ecliptic said:
			
		

> Theres all kinds of stuff that can be explored and written about in Greyhawk.
> 
> *Color comments are mine, -Swiftbrook*
> 
> Iuz *(up-to-date would be nice)*
> Vecna including his Eye and Hand *(brought back to Greyhawk - cool)*
> Scarlet Brotherhood (been there - done that)
> Axe of the Dwarvish Lords (been there - done that)
> Circle of Eight (been there - done that)
> Ring of Five
> Greyhawk itself (been there - done that)
> Furyondy (been there - done that)
> Blackmoor *(YES!)*
> Detailed descriptions of the PHB gods (see LGG)
> All the gods not yet printed
> and countless more.
> 
> How about doing an entire article on a region and putting a newer formatted Regional feat with the article? *(YES! - A MUST HAVE!)*
> 
> How about detailed information on the Scarlet Brotherhood and an Assassin class or a Prestige Class added with it?(been there - done that)




New Greyhawk material, new Greyhawk material and how about some new Greyhawk material.  Knights of the _________, with background information, one prestige class, and maybe a few related feats.  Info on countries that have not seen print with background information, important NPCs and a few regional feats.

Don't revisit what has already been done unless you have a very specific reason (like everyone is asking for it   ).  There is just so much of Greyhawk that hasn't been looked at.

-Swiftbrook


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## Zaukrie

I'm going to keep this simple, because I'm willing to bet you'll get plenty of lengthy replies. 

Thanks for taking the time to listen to us. I said in my earlier posting I was considering not re-upping this year. Given your comments and the Far Realms and Demon information coming, I will re-subscribe.

I believe that you will make Dragon more fun again.


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## Banshee16

Personally I do buy Dragon magazine.  Not every issue, but about 75% of them, I'd estimate.

I used to hate the April Fool's issues, because none of it was actual content I could use in game....but lately that's been changing as it hasn't been a "throw away" issue.

I find the content has been pretty good for stretches, and then out comes an issue that just doesn't do it.  #326, which I'm currently reading, is like that.  I'm not a big dungeon crawl fan, and it just doesn't do anything for me.

More articles about the planes, and planar cities would be appreciated.  But they're not for everyone.  There was an interesting series of articles about planar cities that was coming out for a while that was pretty cool.  More details like that would be appreciated.

Overall, the content's been getting better and better over the last 5-6 months, I feel.

Something that would be really useful would be some form of index to articles in all the mags..whether online, on CD, or whatever.  That would make it easier to find great old articles once an older mag has ben read.

Banshee


----------



## Dragonhelm

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Solid rules are the means to the end of thrilling fantasy adventure. Dragon must be about thrilling fantasy adventure.




Excellent assessment, and I'm glad to see things going this direction.



> Thanks to the OGL, anyone on Earth can publish endless lists of feats and prestige classes. But only Dragon and Wizards of the Coast can show off great elements from the official campaign settings, and I'd be a fool to pass up that opportunity.




Lately, Dragon has had some articles that touch upon some of the older campaign settings.  I've really enjoyed these features, and I hope we can see more of them.

I would second (or third, or fourth...) the request for more Greyhawk, but I think there's also room for other settings such as Mystara, Planescape, Birthright, etc.  Heck, surprise everyone and show how to do Star Frontiers using d20 Modern.  

One thing I would like to see would be a regular feature on world-building where you actually build a world with the articles, having them all fit together.  A Dragon-specific setting would be awesome.


Also, I'm glad to hear that there will be some new blood in regards to comics.  I used to at least get something out of Knights of the Dinner Table.  Now there's so much of that, being its own comic book, that it is hard to follow.  I don't find tons of the same cartoon in a book to be as entertaining.  Likewise, I know that some comics seen in Dragon and Dungeon have had a bit of exposure throughout an issue (Nodwick, anyone?), and it gets to be a bit much.  Heck, Nodwick even comes across as a promotional tool at times, as the comic sometimes reflects the contents of the issue, rather than being a fun distraction.

Erik, thanks for listening to the fans.  I think Dragon will be stronger and more enjoyable for it.


----------



## Ghostwind

Erik, very thoughtful and well-written. Your ideas show me why I haven't completely given up on Dragon (although I am at a crossroads on renewing my Dungeon subscription now that the 3 year deal I got is running out). I look forward to taking a good look at the changes you are making to see if Dragon is right for my needs once again. Thank you for not only asking for but also listening to our views and opinions.


----------



## Richards

Sounds like you've got some excellent ideas, there, Erik, and it's great to see you at the helm.  I look forward to seeing your changes to the magazine.

Any thoughts about the format of the "Ecology" articles, though?  Will they be staying the same, or would you be interested in going back to the "fiction and footnotes" format?  Whichever way you decide (fiction and footnotes), I'm glad (fiction and footnotes) to see (fiction and footnotes) that the "Ecology" articles are going to be staying (fiction and footnotes), because they're easily one of my favorite (fiction and footnotes) articles in _Dragon_ (fiction and footnotes). 

Subliminal messages?  What subliminal mesages?  

Johnathan


----------



## Arnwyn

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 329: My favorite article in this issue is "Demonomicon of Iggwilv: Pazuzu," an 8,000-word overview of the demonic Prince of the Lower Aerial Kingdoms, his cult, and his thralls, by Dungeon Managing Editor James Jacobs. The first in an irregular series on the demon lords and princes of Dungeons & Dragons.
> 
> 330: Into the Far Realm, a 10,000-word overview on how to add Far Realm "bleed" into your material world, by Bruce R. Cordell, creator of the Far Realm and one hell of a creative genius. Contains new monsters, new spells, and a whole lot of disturbing imagery. Anyone wanting to add an element of cosmic horror to their games would do well to check out this primer.
> 
> Later: Articles on cities of the Forgotten Realms by Ed Greenwood. Look for 4-6 of these annually for as long as we can get away with it. Probably about 5000 words each. Meaty. I'm basically just letting Ed go wild with these, and we'll be sure to illustrate them lavishly with "National Geographic"-style fold-out maps and maybe some posters. I'll do what I can afford to do.
> 
> Also: Speaking of the Forgotten Realms, I've also got Eric L. Boyd working on a short series of articles on lost empires of the Realms and the items and cultural legacies that remain to this day. Although Eric is weaving these tightly into the Realms continuity, we're trying to make them easily adaptable to just about any campaign.



You suck (read: rock!), Erik. Here I was, all satisfied and content with my decision to let my Dragon subscription lapse and ignore it forevermore, perfectly happy with my Dungeon sub... and then you go and do this. Now I'm incredibly interested again.

Bloody hell. (Read: Cool!)


----------



## Ghostwind

Edit: Double Post for some weird reason.


----------



## Richards

Hmm, time-delayed double post.  Very weird.

Johnathan


----------



## thundershot

> Here's what's basically staying every issue: Ecology, Spellcraft, Bazaar of the Bizarre, Sage Advice, Class Acts.




Excellent choices. One request for Class Acts though... Since Dragon is the ONLY magazine that can support them, how about doing Class Acts now and then for the new classes in the Complete books like Warmage, Swashbuckler, etc.? Ditto for the Psionic classes. Those, I think, are the ones people need the most advice on. Ones that haven't been touched much (or at all) by WOTC or 3rd party publishers.



> We'll probably reshuffle the cartoons a little. I think the magazine needs some new blood on that score.




ORDER OF THE STICK! I'm serious! If you haven't read it, you've got to!

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript



> 329: My favorite article in this issue is "Demonomicon of Iggwilv: Pazuzu," an 8,000-word overview of the demonic Prince of the Lower Aerial Kingdoms, his cult, and his thralls, by Dungeon Managing Editor James Jacobs. The first in an irregular series on the demon lords and princes of Dungeons & Dragons.




Excellent. Usable material for many people. Harkens back to the old days...



> 330: Into the Far Realm, a 10,000-word overview on how to add Far Realm "bleed" into your material world, by Bruce R. Cordell, creator of the Far Realm and one hell of a creative genius. Contains new monsters, new spells, and a whole lot of disturbing imagery. Anyone wanting to add an element of cosmic horror to their games would do well to check out this primer.




REALLY good idea, because I was going to use it in my cosmology after getting MotP, but I still can't wrap my head around it.



> Later: Articles on cities of the Forgotten Realms by Ed Greenwood. Look for 4-6 of these annually for as long as we can get away with it. Probably about 5000 words each. Meaty. I'm basically just letting Ed go wild with these, and we'll be sure to illustrate them lavishly with "National Geographic"-style fold-out maps and maybe some posters. I'll do what I can afford to do.
> 
> Also: Speaking of the Forgotten Realms, I've also got Eric L. Boyd working on a short series of articles on lost empires of the Realms and the items and cultural legacies that remain to this day. Although Eric is weaving these tightly into the Realms continuity, we're trying to make them easily adaptable to just about any campaign.
> 
> But I Like Eberron!: So do we, which is why I've commissioned Keith Baker to write about a half-dozen articles on various Eberron topics including the Cult of the Dragon Below and other exciting setting elements. The first of these will cover the Umbragen, the Shadow Elves of Eberron, and ought to appear by #333.




I don't delve into the campaign settings so much (unless Spelljammer came back, or Dark Sun in some official capacity, or Planescape), but hopefully the casual gamer will be able to extract some information from these articles.



> But we'll also include plenty of non-setting support. Some of my favorite articles from the recent years have been "Campaign Components," like the Swashbuckler and Spies issues. Look for more of this in the coming months.




Campaign Components, along with Class Acts, has been my favorite addition to Dragon in the recent past. I love those articles as well, and I hope to see more.



> I don't have much to say about fiction that I haven't said already. I'm aware that most posters here don't like it. I have yet to make any critical decisions on what must be done. In the mean time, we're printing something like three or four stories a year, so those of you who hate the fiction won't have to suffer much.




Four a year... it's only a handful of pages that I have to ignore. The fiction could be more interesting if you had.. I dunno... D&D stats for the characters at the end, or new magic items or feats they could have used... Just an idea.



> "Heroic Feats," as a section, will not appear again for precisely this reason. We will publish additional feats, but probably only three or four in a given article to illustrate some theme of the article in question. Instead of 12 sea-related feats, we'll more likely publish an article on sea adventuring, with a small handful of feats within.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another excellent idea. Give those feats some meaning. Toss in some aquatic gear and weapons, and maybe some NPCs and you've got a winner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thank you for your time, your comments, and your enthusiasm for our favorite magazine.
> 
> --Erik Mona
> Editor-in-Chief
> Dragon & Dungeon Magazines
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, thank YOU for YOUR time....
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Chris
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Plane Sailing

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Ok. Here we go.




Great response, Erik. It sounds like I'll be coming back to Dragon again.

Cheers


----------



## Sonofapreacherman

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> We'll probably reshuffle the cartoons a little. I think the magazine needs some new blood on that score.



I hope you don't mean Zogonia, because that's the only cartoon I look forward to reading in Dragon right now. As for new cartoons... Order of the Stick should be given a full page every month. The link I've included starts you off at #1, but there are currently 130 panels to read (131 by tomorrow). The creator of this comic strip also freelances for Wizards of the Coast.

Order of the Stick is pure D&D joy.


----------



## dpmcalister

So you're not covering non-fantasy d20 products then? Ah, well, didn't expect you would really so, sorry, no sale here.


----------



## kmdietri

Same reason I don't buy/subscribe-to any magazines.  The first one gets read, the rest accumulate, unread, on a pile...


----------



## Veander

"Suzie has an octopus on her head and she keeps it there all day."

Drop the price in some discount situation and I'll rejoin.  At least compared to other magazine subscriptions, this one is pricey.


----------



## qstor

I still think the Class Acts has got to go. Its the most USELESS section of the magazine. It reads like a rehash of the 3.0 splatbooks and the Hero Builders Guide. The majority of which was in Dragon Magazine before you became editor Erik.

Mike


----------



## TerraDave

Erik,

Just to join the chorus, this looks great, I truly look forward to the new Dragon, and hope it gives me the excuse to subscribe again after many years of buying very few issues.


----------



## Lost and Damned 2

I managed to get Novembers and Decembers issues and I do like some of it, the bit on Spice from Dune into d20 format was good, if too short, I would like to see some follow ups for that, and reading your response gives me good hope for the future, save for one thing....

you make no mention on the crap new logo, please, please DO NOT KEEP IT, change it back to the old one, it stands out more and makes the magazine feel special, not just another "Bland Mag"



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Ok. Here we go..... My hope is that by the time I move on, a great deal more of you will be happier with the magazine than you were when I arrived.....


----------



## Myconid Sage

Thanks, Erik. Now I'm going to have to resubscribe


----------



## MoogleEmpMog

Didn't respond to the initial question because, well...

A. I didn't see it until it was too late.
B. I'm certain my problems with _Dragon_ are beyond Paizo's power to solve.
C. I have a subscription and won't let it lapse as long as _Dragon_ remains a possible market for my work.  

Nonetheless, I'm glad to see campaign-specific material coming back in a big way and some upcoming content on the Far Realms (the only outer plane I've used in a campaign in over a decade).  I'll lament the irregularity of Silicon Sorcery and, to a lesser extent, A Novel Approach.

Sounds as interesting and valuable as "The Magazine of Dungeons and Dragons" can be.


----------



## Zudrak

> I want to make one thing clear. As long as I am associated with Dragon magazine, *I will ALWAYS strive to make it a more compelling, more successful magazine.* I'll do that by trusting the feedback provided by our readers in threads like this, by listening to trusted peers, and by listening to my trusted (and ever-expanding) gut. The work is never finished, and the magazine can always get better.




Erik,

It is good to hear what is on the horizon for Dragon.  While I cannot answer why I don't buy Dragon (I am thankfully signed up for 31 more issues!), I do like to keep my finger on the pulse, so to speak.  Per my previous posts here and on paizo.com, I am really looking forward to more inspiring and "thrilling fantasy adventure" articles.  That's the Dragon I recall.  I remember the first issue I ever read (#74, I believe -- it had the Nine Hells, Part 2) and I still have the copy in poor condition in my collection.  I want to be able to remember articles from today's Dragon the way I recollect the "golden" era.  I think you have more potential authors, more gamers, more ideas, etc. to tap in order to refine Dragon into a new golden age.

I have to say I am even more excited about the future of Dragon now than when I wrote the letter that you printed in issue 327.  Thanks for having a vision and a purpose (bolded in your quote above).  I will await the future and be glad.

Zudrak


----------



## Teflon Billy

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> ...something essential was missing, and in fact had been missing from the magazine for a good long while...
> 
> ...My sense is that _because_ the rules system is so strong, many publishers tend to focus on the rules nearly exclusively, to the point at which a "big picture" is lost....
> 
> ...Dragon's biggest hurdle is that, for a good long while, I think it has been far too focused on the "solid rules" part of the equation and not nearly focused enough on the "thrilling fantasy adventure" part of the equation...
> 
> ...Now that we're all mired in countless feats and prestige classes, the pendulum is starting to swing in the opposite direction...
> 
> ...So, to those of you who say "Dragon has too much crunch and not enough fluff," I offer my whole-hearted agreement. Give me a couple months, and take another look....
> 
> ...Just in case I haven't been clear: Dragon as I see it still contains plenty of rules and rules advice. It just does so within a larger (and I hope) more interesting context...
> 
> ...Instead of 12 sea-related feats, we'll more likely publish an article on sea adventuring, with a small handful of feats within...




OK, you have convinced me. 

I will start buying Dragon again in March 2005 (givng you the "Couple of months" mentioned above to get the ball rolling), and will do so at least until June 2005 (so that one bad issue won't be the sole sample size).

Your success with *Dungeon* and your comments that I have quoted above have given *Dragon* another chance with me Erik. 

It sounds like it will be good.


----------



## Erik Mona

Thanks for the positive responses, folks. 

I wanted to hop online again and add a few more points, as I inevitably forgot to mention a few things and some folks have asked some good questions. 

GREYHAWK: Anyone who has followed my career knows that I love the Greyhawk setting and will do everything I can to ensure that it is supported. Unfortunately, Wizards of the Coast has a very, very, very complex strategy related to this setting which sometimes makes it difficult to know what will and what won't be approved. I have received the go-ahead for a series of articles on the core pantheon gods, and I'm currently working up an appropriate outline for these articles to send off to trusted freelancers. It'll probably be a few months before something happens. Beyond that, I'd like to do some article tie-ins to the Living Greyhawk campaign, but again, I have multiple masters to serve on this issue, and will do what I can.

ECOLOGY FORMAT: For right now, we're going to stick with a slightly expanded version of the "no fiction or footnotes" version that we have now. I'm afraid that my "jokey" impulse is relatively low, so while I appreciate the work Johnathan Richards put into his Ecology articles and I always enjoy his "Challenge of Champions" adventures in Dungeon, the Monster Hunter Society plays fantasy a little goofier than I tend to prefer. Whether that makes me visionary or a big bore is for time (and, of course, Mr. Richards) to decide. 

ONLINE ARCHIVE: We're working with Wizards of the Coast to figure out a way to sell PDF back issues on our website. I know this isn't quite what a lot of people have in mind (preferring something free), but we're running very, very slim margins as it is, and cannot provide material for free when the same material could be released at a nominal cost that would cover the effort required to put the whole thing together. No one is getting rich producing Dragon and Dungeon. In fact, quite the opposite.

DRAGON ANNUAL: There's virtually no chance that these will return in the short term. Adding a 13th issue is absolute murder on the staff, and we have ZERO capacity for extra work as it is. For me personally, 24 issues a year will have to suffice. We are looking at doing stand-alone products similar to the old "Best of Dragon," however, so the idea isn't completely dead.

HISTORICAL ARTICLES: I like 'em. #329's got an article on the historical and mythological origins of popular D&D monsters as well as a Mesopotamian pantheon for your campaigns. More stuff along these lines will appear in the following months.

DRAGON'S BESTIARY: Monster articles will definitely be a part of my tenure on the magazine. Look for bestiary articles as well as irregular "Creature Catalogs" like the dozen-page monsters they used to do back in the day.

CAMPAIGN CLASSICS: I loved issue #315, and would like to find a way to do something along those lines annually. Ideally, the articles would be a little less tangential than the ones in #315. This is something that will be better with more planning, so I intend to start thinking seriously about it after I return from the holiday break in early January.

ZOGONIA: I love Zogonia, and it isn't going anywhere.

ORDER OF THE STICK: Fans of this strip have very definitely been heard. It is indeed hilarious.

That's it for now.

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon


----------



## shady

Coming late to this thread ... end of year RL pressures have taken me away from ENWorld and at the moment am barely reading past the front page. However I've bookmarked the thread and will try and read through it - I apologise if anything below has been brought up already.

 When Dungeon and Dragon were revised I expected to stop buying both. Admittedly I was most upset about the death of Polyhedron, though it was dying a slow death anyhow. I actually think, on a general note, that although I'm not exactly doing cartwheels over everything in the magazines, I think they've both been significantly improved by the revision, and despite patchy distribution I'm picking up both.

 I still, and have posted this elsewhere, heartily dislike Silicon Sorcery, and given the choice would can it immediately. A while back there was a thread where Psion expressed a (perfectly legitimate) contrary view - that Silicon Sorcery acted as a conduit for interesting rules twists, given that CRPGs typically implement non-Vance magic systems, for example, and in general implement non-D20 systems more often than not.

 I still think such a statement is a stretch, but it subsequently hit me that Wizards has a huge non-d20 seam of material it never mines at all for the purpose of d20 adaptation, specifically MtG. Given that Wizards/Paizo seem perfectly happy to adapt material from properties they don't own (Dungeon Siege, for example), why aren't we seeing adaptations of Mirrodin and Kamagawa? Cross brand contamination issues?

 On a similar vein, it would be far more useful to me if, given a choice of stuff to steal/adapt, instead of picking up CRPG stuff, there were monster listings for my considerable collection of Mage Knight minis, or for competing miniature lines like Rackham and Aegyptus. Campaign Magazine (barely) started adapting Mage Knight monsters for d20, with wizkids cooperation so maybe they would be open also.

 Anyhow, just a thought/suggestion.


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer

I don't know if you missed it, but...



			
				Swiftbrook said:
			
		

> Iuz (up-to-date would be nice)




Been there, done that. One of the Dragon Magazine issues around the time D&DG was released. It had Iuz, Pholtus, and Rao in it in 3e stats.


----------



## Vocenoctum

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> ZOGONIA: I love Zogonia, and it isn't going anywhere.
> 
> ORDER OF THE STICK: Fans of this strip have very definitely been heard. It is indeed hilarious.



I enjoy Zogonia, and Mount Zogon. Order of the Stick was funny for a while, but the current stuff has been boring as sin. I don't think the comic is sustainable in a monthly format.

Just IMO. I'm already a subscriber.


----------



## shady

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I enjoy Zogonia, and Mount Zogon. Order of the Stick was funny for a while, but the current stuff has been boring as sin. I don't think the comic is sustainable in a monthly format.
> 
> Just IMO. I'm already a subscriber.



 I actually think Dragon has a tradition, right back to the old days, of too-many-not-very-good comics, to the extent most of us are used to it. I don't have high expectations on the comics and by and large they're met. As long as the page number is manageable then fine. Order of the Stick would be great, in terms of maybe getting that strip a wider audience, but to be frank I prefer to read it on the web anyway.

 And having read some of the earlier thread ...

 Please please no fiction. I'd prefer fluffier crunch (if that makes sense - an example would be the monster write ups in monsternomicon, or interesting campaign settings). 

 I think small crunch items don't work particularly when oriented to players (feats, PrCs, etc) - they're difficult to include in sessions/campaigns ("I'm allowing the feats published in Dragon 412, page 13, I'm sure that's been on everyone's mind") and to my mind they're only interesting when playtesting/previewing forthcoming releases of bigger books. for DMs it's different - I don't need to prebrief the players in order to include a new monster, or campaign idea, for example.


----------



## Acid_crash

Erik...

What about the possibility, even once or twice a year, of getting articles in Dragon about other d20 fantasy worlds that are not WotC specific, like Midnight, or Black Company, or Blue Rose, or Dawnforge, or Mutants & Masterminds   , etc?  (had to throw in M&M, such an awesome game)...

If you could do this, even once a year, or even a Star Wars article since us Star Wars gamer fans have been rather shafted since the Star Wars magazine went away... I think that would be really great of your company.


----------



## shadowlight

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> But I Like Eberron!: So do we, which is why I've commissioned Keith Baker to write about a half-dozen articles on various Eberron topics including the Cult of the Dragon Below and other exciting setting elements. The first of these will cover the Umbragen, the Shadow Elves of Eberron, and ought to appear by #333.
> 
> Thanks to the OGL, anyone on Earth can publish endless lists of feats and prestige classes. But only Dragon and Wizards of the Coast can show off great elements from the official campaign settings, and I'd be a fool to pass up that opportunity.



Wow.  I may just have to pick up Dragon again after cancelling my subscription a year ago.

I think you're on the right track Erik.  Fewer extra rules to keep track of and more support for the official campaign settings.  It's almost like Dragon will contain the "Driector's Cut" or "Deleted Scenes" for the official campaign settings


----------



## dargoth3

"Later: Articles on cities of the Forgotten Realms by Ed Greenwood. Look for 4-6 of these annually for as long as we can get away with it. Probably about 5000 words each. Meaty. I'm basically just letting Ed go wild with these, and we'll be sure to illustrate them lavishly with "National Geographic"-style fold-out maps and maybe some posters. I'll do what I can afford to do.

Also: Speaking of the Forgotten Realms, I've also got Eric L. Boyd working on a short series of articles on lost empires of the Realms and the items and cultural legacies that remain to this day. Although Eric is weaving these tightly into the Realms continuity, we're trying to make them easily adaptable to just about any campaign."

Ok your on the right track (For me anyway) and if you keep up the regular FR articles I may consider a subscription or at least buy the magazine regularly from a FLGS.

A quck question though, you havent mentioned the Faithes of Faeruns articles  are they staying or going? (If there staying when will we see the next one?)


----------



## IronWolf

Erik,

Thanks for taking the time from your busy schedule to first, inquire about what people did and didn't like about Dragon and two, for letting us know what direction the magazine is heading in.

I am a current subscriber and am anxiously looking forward to the new changes as they start to take place.  I also want to say that the FR articles will go far in getting me to re-subscribe when my time comes.

Thanks again!


----------



## GlassJaw

> I'd almost like to see Dragon be the D&D National Geographic






> we'll be sure to illustrate them lavishly with "National Geographic"-style fold-out maps and maybe some posters




Do I get any royalties?    

This is great stuff.  I'll definitely be keeping a close eye on the upcoming Dragons.  



> 330: Into the Far Realm, a 10,000-word overview on how to add Far Realm "bleed" into your material world, by Bruce R. Cordell, creator of the Far Realm and one hell of a creative genius. Contains new monsters, new spells, and a whole lot of disturbing imagery. Anyone wanting to add an element of cosmic horror to their games would do well to check out this primer.




This sounds awesome.  I'll definitely be getting this.  

The recent changes to Dungeon _forced_ me to subscribe.  Don't tell me this trend will continue with Dragon!!


----------



## MoogleEmpMog

Oooo... Order of the Stick AND the Far Realm?  Now I'm getting interested.  

I hope OotS in _Dragon_, if it does get in, isn't just reprints of the twice-weekly online continuity.  One-off strips would probably work better on a monthly basis.  I don't know about anyone else, but I've enjoyed the funny magic items and spells you get for Buzzcomics voting on OotS.  Small, stand-alone and very amusing to any D&D player, they'd be a great fit, possibly better than the full strip.


----------



## antpasq

*renewal problem*

Erik,
What is this bullsh*t with renewal of current subscriptions? My first indication of my subscription running out was an email stating that my subscription had already expired!!! No warnings, no postcards in the previous few issues. According to an email I rec'd from David Neri, even if I renew today I will miss an issue. What is that?! Through no fault of my own and following the info I receive from Paizo I will still miss an issue of a magazine I want. This might explain loss of readership.


----------



## shadowlight

antpasq said:
			
		

> Erik,
> What is this bullsh*t with renewal of current subscriptions? My first indication of my subscription running out was an email stating that my subscription had already expired!!! No warnings, no postcards in the previous few issues. According to an email I rec'd from David Neri, even if I renew today I will miss an issue. What is that?! Through no fault of my own and following the info I receive from Paizo I will still miss an issue of a magazine I want. This might explain loss of readership.



 I had the same thing happen to me (I was just complaining about it to my wife).  I've already renewed (Dungeon), but now I'm afraid I'm going to miss an issue.


----------



## BobROE

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> ONLINE ARCHIVE: We're working with Wizards of the Coast to figure out a way to sell PDF back issues on our website. I know this isn't quite what a lot of people have in mind (preferring something free), but we're running very, very slim margins as it is, and cannot provide material for free when the same material could be released at a nominal cost that would cover the effort required to put the whole thing together. No one is getting rich producing Dragon and Dungeon. In fact, quite the opposite.
> 
> --Erik Mona
> Editor-in-Chief
> Dragon & Dungeon




If you do find some way to do this (Dungeon would be nice too), could it done be on a per article basis perhaps?  So that those of us that are interested in the Forgotten Realms but not Eberron (or vice versa) could just get those articles.


----------



## Erik Mona

Unfortunately, I cannot speak to the renewal problem posted above. I strongly suggest a post to the following forum:

http://www.paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/general/customerService

Someone should be able to help you out promptly. I should note, however, that the office closes at the end of the day tomorrow and will not reopen until January 3rd, so tonight and tomorrow are good days to raise this issue there.

Again, sorry I can't personally be more helpful, but we've got folks who know exactly how to deal with this, and they'll be able to help you out ASAP.

Thanks,

Erik Mona


----------



## greymist

Erik, 

 I am astonished that you are willing to put so many changes into effect so quickly. I tip my hat to you. 

 I am looking forward to reading the upcoming issues, and if the changes are as good as they sound, I will keep my subscription alive. 

 Good work.


----------



## Drachenherz

*What about more reader input?*

If I remember correctly, wasn't there a policy in effect for the reading public to submit ideas back in the days before TSR canned Dragon? I think it would be a good idea to reinstitute this, in effect giving the readers a voice, more than just a Q&A session from the Sage. 

I really like the Ecology and Class Act features, as well as Zogonia (it kicks major buttocks). Nodwick is OK, but Dork Tower honestly is boring. 

As another suggestion, how about having a "Painter's Corner" type of feature, where the miniature painting readers can show off their works, and the pro-painters among us can give advice to those who want help? 
*Jumps up and down, waving hands wildly, yelling "Volunteer!!!!!" *


----------



## Steverooo

*HHH: Hopefully-Helpful Hints...*

Ugh!  Meum no read twenty-three pages of stuff!  Me read TWO, but here some ideas!

*1). All Content MUST Pass The USABILITY TEST!*

The main objection to fiction in Dragon (it seems to me) is that it fails the "Usefulness Test".  Likewise, an article on Hammered Dulcimers would be of interest to SOME readers, and could easily ties in to Bards, made game-related... but how much USE would the average player (or GM) get out of it?

If your answer is "About zero!", then articles on Hammered Dulcimers have no business being in Dragon.  Save it for The Antiques Corner, or some magazine focused towards Renaissance Musicians.  It will better serve its readership, there.

Likewise, ALL Dragon articles should be subjected to the same test.  Those that fail should be removed, and replaced with more USEFUL content.

*2). What's useful to me may be trash to you... and vice-versa!*

Forgotten Realms?  What are those (apparently, I've forgotten)!  Eberron?  No thanks!  Greyhawk, even?  No, thank you... not anymore!  None of these are of interest, to me.  THEY ALL fail the Usability Test!

Now, what I loathe, others may love... BUT NOT ALL OF THEM!  The key, here, is Focus vs. Variety.  In an issue focused on Eberron, I will not be interested...  ALL articles will fail the Usability Test, for me.  Therefore, Dragon needs MORE Variety, and LESS Focus!

Say you have an Eberron issue, a FR issue, and a GH issue, a Halloween and April Fools isue...  That's about half the year that I probably won't be buying your mag!  I bet I'm not the only one, either!

Perhaps you could have one big Eberron-themed issue a year... but it would be a mistake!  Better to have one much smaller piece an issue, an occasional FR, GH, DS, etc., piece in an occasional issue, and a bunch of crunchy bits, and them some stuff of interest to some, but not all, on a VARIETY of topics.  That way, you might have some people who skip the one Eberron (or FR, or GH, or DS, or...) article, but still get hooked by one or more of the others!

*3). Variety, not Focus! (Or, No Theme Issues!)*

I don't care if it's April Fools' month!  Does everything in the mag hafta be foolishness?  If so, there's no reason for me to subscribe (or buy the April issue)!  Halloween is much the same.  Pretty much every theme you can name works the same way.  Go back to #2, now...

*4). Dungeon notwithstanding, bring back DMing material!*

There is no reason for DMs to buy Dragon, apparently...  None, whatsoever (unless they're also players).  CHANGE THAT!  (Please).

Now apply the Usability Test to this suggestion...  See how that works?

*5). More non-D&D (even non-D20) material.*

Variety vs. Focus.  Sure, some people will object, but as long as it's an occasional piece, it'll fly.  Just don't make a theme out of it!  This will fail the Usability Test for some readers (especially those used to a steady diet of D&D, alone), but older readers will appreciate it (remembering the older Dragon), and most will enjoy more Variety!

*6). Content, Content, Content!*

If the content isn't to my taste, I won't buy.  It's as simple as that...  Now, you don't know my tastes, and you can't please me all the time...  And even if you could, that shouldn't be your goal!  You have a lot of other customers, besides me!  

But obviously, you are going to have to have interesting content, or no one will be buying!  Instead of trying to please everyone with every article (and failing), try to please everyone with at least one major, and several minor, articles in every issue!  Much easier to do, and not fore-doomed to failure!

Now if this means changing editorial policy to get new writers, then DO IT!  Why do you need Word for Windows format when most word processors, these days, can take in ASCII text and/or HTML, anyway?  Why do you have to buy ALL rights to articles?  (I won't be submitting, under those terms!)

Content should always be heavily slanted towards usability, as well.  Now here's a piece I did, on wilderness survival, geared towards players.  It was the second-to-the-last post to A Voice from the Wilderness thread.  Kindly take a look at it, and see if it passes the Usability Test, for your magazine...  THIS is the kind of articles I'd be interested in!  Lots of ideas to use (or not), variety, general applicability to any setting, and any class could benefit.  YMMV.  Here's another one, on "Quick Adventure Ideas".  All useful stuff, IMHO.

*7). Subscription/Delivery Problems*

Overseas subscribers have often complained of poor service.  Have those issues been resolved?  (If so, then good job!)  American subscribers have complained about getting their subscriptions AFTER their FLGS do.  (Bad job!  But I understand that that has been/is being fixed!)

Also, any magazine which is not mailed sealed inside a Tyvek envelope will never get my business...  I am tired of ripped, crushed mags, with coffee stains on pages 119-20, and arrive without their covers!  Fuhgeddaboudit!

*8). Customer Service*

You can see complaints as complaints, or as opportunities to improve your products and ingratiate yourself to your customers...  I assume you're a businessman, and realize that only one of these is acceptable.  I leave it as an exercize for the interested to determine which is which.

When 3.5e was announced, I wrote and asked WotC Customer Service how we could give input to the new edition.  I was told that all design decisions had already been made, and it was "too late".  After 3.5e's debut, questions about this-and-that were asked, and the WotC folks told us "Well, that was back in the days when..., and we've since changed that!"  Obviously, things were changed since the Update Conversion Guide was published (magical armour only adding to maximum Enc., not weight, for instance), so it shouldn't have been too late.

Anyway, I did a looooooonnnggg piece on what was wrong with the 3e Ranger, and how to fix it, right here on these boards... even though it was "too late".  99% of those suggestions seem to have been incorporated into 3.5e, oddly enough...

Anyway, WotC (and Dragon) need to do better in opening channels for feedback, and making them known.  Not just to subscribers, either!


----------



## Scribe Ineti

I haven't read the entire thread, so I bet my answers are echoed elsewhere.



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?
> 
> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?



1.  Any news the magazine contains almost certainly is available online earlier than when the magazine is printed and delivered.

There is more content online than could possibly be contained in one issue of Dragon.

Having gamed for 20+ years, there are probably no new topics for articles that haven't already been done. Further, all the good advice online would fill several issues alone.

2.  I can't think of any changes that would make me go back to Dragon. No print game magazine is going to be able to compete with the immediacy of the internet.


----------



## thundershot

If it's even possible to have Order of the Stick in Dragon, (if the creator would even want to do more) I would hope it'd be like KODT. The strips in Dragon would be exclusive to Dragon, or eventually collected into a TPB like KODT did.



Chris


----------



## martynq

Just a quick message to say thank you for listening to us, Erik.  I'm very pleased to hear there are FR articles by Ed Greenwood and Eric L. Boyd on the way.  The numbers you suggest (4-6 a year of Ed) seem enough to encourage me to continue buying on a regular basis.  This seems enough to keep me happy at least (and hopefully won't annoy non-FR readers).

Thanks!!!

Martyn


----------



## Wraith Form

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Ok. Here we go. ** SNIP **
> 
> I want to make one thing clear. As long as I am associated with Dragon magazine, I will ALWAYS strive to make it a more compelling, more successful magazine. I'll do that by trusting the feedback provided by our readers in threads like this, by listening to trusted peers, and by listening to my trusted (and ever-expanding) gut. The work is never finished, and the magazine can always get better.



As long as you're associated with Dragon (and actually implement the changes you've proposed), I'll go back to picking up the magazine. It's heartening to read that you've picked up the essence of what we're asking for and want to strive to include it.

Thank you. No, really--thank you.

You're a good man, Charlie Brown. Now excuse me--I have some Dragon to read.


----------



## Richards

Originally posted by Erik Mona:







> ECOLOGY FORMAT: For right now, we're going to stick with a slightly expanded version of the "no fiction or footnotes" version that we have now. I'm afraid that my "jokey" impulse is relatively low, so while I appreciate the work Johnathan Richards put into his Ecology articles and I always enjoy his "Challenge of Champions" adventures in Dungeon, the Monster Hunter Society plays fantasy a little goofier than I tend to prefer. Whether that makes me visionary or a big bore is for time (and, of course, Mr. Richards) to decide.



Okay, fair enough.  I will point out, though, that not all of my "Ecology" articles in the past involved the Monster Hunters Association.  Obviously, I can't argue that the MHA weren't "goofy" - they definitely were, but then they were intended to be - but a "fiction and footnote" format for the "Ecology" articles does not have to involve goofiness.  Can I ask you to expand a bit upon the "expanded version of the 'no fiction or footnotes' version" you mentioned above?  Expanded how?

And no, you're definitely not "a big bore."  You're definitely one of the most _interesting_ things to have happened to _Dragon_ in a long time (and I mean that in a good way).

Johnathan


----------



## dream66_

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> DRAGON ANNUAL: There's virtually no chance that these will return in the short term. Adding a 13th issue is absolute murder on the staff, and we have ZERO capacity for extra work as it is. For me personally, 24 issues a year will have to suffice. We are looking at doing stand-alone products similar to the old "Best of Dragon," however, so the idea isn't completely dead.





So is this the real reason why the annual was dropped?   Lack of time and money.    Why didn't they just say so at the time?      I really do believe that fans would have understood, but lying to us just makes bad feelings.

They produced the d20 Annual, it was horrible.   People commented on this, said it was horrible and so the editors at the time decided never to do an annual again?!   That logic doesn't even make sence.       

If it's money I understand, if it was always money, I understand.   But you should at least offer everyone an appology for your predicessors lying to us.


----------



## antpasq

*renewal problem solved*

Erik,
Thanks for your response. I spoke with David this morning and came to a satisfactory solution to my renewal concern.


----------



## siege72

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> ONLINE ARCHIVE: We're working with Wizards of the Coast to figure out a way to sell PDF back issues on our website. I know this isn't quite what a lot of people have in mind (preferring something free), but we're running very, very slim margins as it is, and cannot provide material for free when the same material could be released at a nominal cost that would cover the effort required to put the whole thing together. No one is getting rich producing Dragon and Dungeon. In fact, quite the opposite.



Erik,

I understand the PDFs can't be done for free... I still refer back to my Dragon Magazine CDs purchased so many years ago.  

I would ask that you consider two small things:

1. Keep the price low. Wizards has been putting out the latest releases in PDF format... for full price. Paying "full cover price" for an electronic file is going to be hard for a lot of people to swallow, despite the convenience. The option to purchase in bulk for a discount would be nice too. 

2. Aim for cross-platform compatibility. Not everyone is stuck using Microsoft Windows. And by being cross-platform, there's no chance of files not working because of future software or computer upgrades.

Thanks!!


----------



## Calico_Jack73

I currently have a subscription but most likely I'll let it run out.  I'm probably just speaking for myself but it seems like the majority of material in the magazine of late has been geared to this or that campaign setting.  To tell the truth I'd be interested in a more Unearthed Arcana type of magazine that offered alternate rules along with playtested comentary on the pros and cons to those rules as opposed to more feats and PRCs.  Keep it generic and it is something that I can use since I use non-WOTC settings.  I also tend to skip over the fiction part of the magazine... it's a waste of space in the magazine if you ask me.  No offense intended and I am sure there are quite a few people who look forward to reading the monthly short story.

Another thing, bring back WORMY and you'll have a subscriber for life.


----------



## rickajr

*Just some thoughts...*

My first thoughts on Dragon isn't a real reason not to buy it, but please change the logo - the current logo looks like crap - give us something that looks fantastic and exciting.

The contents of the magazine have a whole heck of alot of crunchy bits that quite honestly isn't necessary.  The market is filled with so much crunch - do we really need hundreds of more spells, feats, and PrC's?  The campaigns I've been involved with say no - typically DM's have a tendency to say no to these bits as they haven't been through the game testing phases and tend to be broken.  Please add more fluff - give us more backgrounds, bring a historical perspective to the game (the past article on history of warfare I found to be excellent), research and present historical castles, cave systems, weapons, etc.  How about creating a new campaign world within the SRD where every month you add some more to it with explanations from the writer on their directions and thoughts?

Finally, release what crunch you present as OGL.  I think all DM's have this ego while designing their gaming world that says this is the ultimate world because I'm the one building it - therefore it's the best and someday I'm going to sell it to a publisher and be published.  Therefore, when designing the world I'm only going to use OGL items.  If there is a cool crunchy bit in Dragon, it's of no use to DM's who have this I'm going to get published someday attitude (and don't they all!), therefore I'm better off purchasing an OGL source book instead of purchasing Dragon magazine.  I just theorizing here, but my bet is if Dragon was to make it's crunchy bits OGL and advertise that it's doing so, then your sales volume will increase.

I think my overall point is to look at why people would purchase a magazine such as Dragon - it's to get something out of it - educational articles of historical interest you can bring to your game, adventure and intrigue is fluff you can modify or generate ideas from which can help expand your game, crunchy stuff that is OGL you can utilize in your game (and retain your I'm getting published ego).  If you can't bring a good portion of the content into your game, then it's just another article in just another magazine that will sit on the retailers shelf.  I rather spend the $$$ (what its like $7 every month now?) on an OGL pdf from sites like rpgnow or save up my $$$ for an OGL sourcebook (or two).

Here's my summary:

* The logo is crap
* Needs more fluff
* Crunch needs to be OGL
* Design a how to do it campaign world (Dragon would be the background-macro and Dungeon the adventure-micro) within the SRD / OGL boundaries with the author's inside the design thoughts.

Rick Anderson


----------



## Nellisir

rickajr said:
			
		

> Finally, release what crunch you present as OGL.  I think all DM's have this ego while designing their gaming world that says this is the ultimate world because I'm the one building it - therefore it's the best and someday I'm going to sell it to a publisher and be published.  Therefore, when designing the world I'm only going to use OGL items.  If there is a cool crunchy bit in Dragon, it's of no use to DM's who have this I'm going to get published someday attitude (and don't they all!), therefore I'm better off purchasing an OGL source book instead of purchasing Dragon magazine.  I just theorizing here, but my bet is if Dragon was to make it's crunchy bits OGL and advertise that it's doing so, then your sales volume will increase.




I'm with you 110%, but to be fair, I think WotC calls the shots on this.  Dragon is the "Official Magazine" of Dungeons & Dragons, so rather than viewing the lack of OGC as a bad thing, WotC can play it up as a good thing -- Dragon is the ONLY place to get "official content" every month.

Since they purchase all rights, going non-OGL also allows them to reuse Dragon content elsewhere without legal bother, though I think that's less of an issue than one might suspect.

If Dragon did guarantee at least OGC article a month, though...man.  THAT would be Christmas.

Cheers
Nell.


----------



## rickajr

Nellisir said:
			
		

> I'm with you 110%, but to be fair, I think WotC calls the shots on this.  Dragon is the "Official Magazine" of Dungeons & Dragons, so rather than viewing the lack of OGC as a bad thing, WotC can play it up as a good thing -- Dragon is the ONLY place to get "official content" every month.




I hear you playing the devil's advocate from WOTC - but it's NOT a good thing - the SRD/OGL is brilliant and in my opinion making the crunchy bits of Dragon OGL would increase readership and make the content truly useful.  I'm not saying if they do an article to expand Greyhawk, Realms, or Eberron that those bits should be OGL, what I'm saying is make the generic content truly useful by making those bits OGL.  They're crafty folks and I'm sure they could designate a clear way to show what's OGL within each issue.

How hard would it be to try it for three months and see what happens?

Rick Anderson

PS - I think WOTC should have made Chapter 1 of Frostburn OGL as well since it's derived off of what's in the SRD - in fact lifting several paragraphs here and there.  That's a real shame as well.


----------



## barsoomcore

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> It's a monthly place for them to turn for easy-to-digest articles about their favorite class, meant to be read at the game table during a break. The continued success of the hobby revolves around converting these folks into more active players, so in my view Class Acts is absolutely critical and is staying. We'll do what we can to make each installment as inspiring and exciting as possible, for novices as well as old hands.



Hey, that's really weird.

You just came up with a reason for me to buy _Dragon_. I've bought exactly ONE copy of this magazine in, like, FIFTEEN years.

Erik, all I can say is, I believe you when you tell me. And I'll be looking at the upcoming issues and if they live up to your previews, I'll be buying them. You've done an AWESOME job with Dungeon and if you can do the same with Dragon (and it sounds to me like you can), you'll have done the gaming world a doubly-great service.


----------



## Arnwyn

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> I'm probably just speaking for myself but it seems like the majority of material in the magazine of late has been geared to this or that campaign setting.



I cannot possibly fathom how you came to this conclusion.


----------



## pogre

Erik,

Thanks - I appreciate your efforts.

Keith (aka pogre)


----------



## JoeGKushner

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> GREYHAWK: Anyone who has followed my career knows that I love the Greyhawk setting and will do everything I can to ensure that it is supported. Unfortunately, Wizards of the Coast has a very, very, very complex strategy related to this setting which sometimes makes it difficult to know what will and what won't be approved. I have received the go-ahead for a series of articles on the core pantheon gods, and I'm currently working up an appropriate outline for these articles to send off to trusted freelancers. It'll probably be a few months before something happens. Beyond that, I'd like to do some article tie-ins to the Living Greyhawk campaign, but again, I have multiple masters to serve on this issue, and will do what I can.




Greyhawk is awesome. Will these include Initiate Feats like those found in Races of Stone? Will they be somewhat like the old Gods of the Suel Pantheon from way back in the day?




			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> ONLINE ARCHIVE: We're working with Wizards of the Coast to figure out a way to sell PDF back issues on our website. I know this isn't quite what a lot of people have in mind (preferring something free), but we're running very, very slim margins as it is, and cannot provide material for free when the same material could be released at a nominal cost that would cover the effort required to put the whole thing together. No one is getting rich producing Dragon and Dungeon. In fact, quite the opposite.




Cool. That's about all I can say at this point until we see or know more about it.



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> DRAGON ANNUAL: There's virtually no chance that these will return in the short term. Adding a 13th issue is absolute murder on the staff, and we have ZERO capacity for extra work as it is. For me personally, 24 issues a year will have to suffice. We are looking at doing stand-alone products similar to the old "Best of Dragon," however, so the idea isn't completely dead.




A Best of Dragon would be completely fantastic. If it started when 3.0 hit and updated some of those mechanics to 3.5 for example, that would be a good start. Heck, take some of the 2nd edition stuff and update it to 3.5.



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> HISTORICAL ARTICLES: I like 'em. #329's got an article on the historical and mythological origins of popular D&D monsters as well as a Mesopotamian pantheon for your campaigns. More stuff along these lines will appear in the following months.




Meh. D&D isn't historical and isn't really based on it except in the most losest sense of the fashion so if it's great, I'll use it.




			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> DRAGON'S BESTIARY: Monster articles will definitely be a part of my tenure on the magazine. Look for bestiary articles as well as irregular "Creature Catalogs" like the dozen-page monsters they used to do back in the day.




Excellent. that's about all I can say about this. I hope that we see some of the older stuff updated. Some may note that I've mentioned older material a few times and the way I see it, Dragon is one of the few monthly or regular sources, that could do this in any type of fashion that meets it's old standards.




			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> CAMPAIGN CLASSICS: I loved issue #315, and would like to find a way to do something along those lines annually. Ideally, the articles would be a little less tangential than the ones in #315. This is something that will be better with more planning, so I intend to start thinking seriously about it after I return from the holiday break in early January.




I still use some of that Greyhawk material. The regional feats for it were great. If doing stuff like that in the future, more ideas on how to place those reigions in a generic setting would be great. And of course, we still miss Spelljammer.



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> ORDER OF THE STICK: Fans of this strip have very definitely been heard. It is indeed hilarious.
> 
> That's it for now.
> 
> --Erik Mona
> Editor-in-Chief
> Dragon & Dungeon




Good stuff overall Erik. Here's hoping that the 2005 run down is a list of the accomplishments of your reign.


----------



## Erik Mona

dream66_ said:
			
		

> So is this the real reason why the annual was dropped?   Lack of time and money.    Why didn't they just say so at the time?      I really do believe that fans would have understood, but lying to us just makes bad feelings.
> 
> They produced the d20 Annual, it was horrible.   People commented on this, said it was horrible and so the editors at the time decided never to do an annual again?!   That logic doesn't even make sence.
> 
> If it's money I understand, if it was always money, I understand.   But you should at least offer everyone an appology for your predicessors lying to us.




It was always a time and money issue. Our previous publisher, Johnny Wilson, flipped out due to the negative reaction of the fans to the d20 Annual, and made a petulant post that suggested that the negative reaction was the reason we stopped doing it. I couldn't account for that decision then, and I certainly can't now. 

I don't think it was a lie as much as a "these things kill my staff and my budget, and no one likes it, so screw it." I can't apologize for something I didn't do or say, but I can say that I strive to be honest and professional in all of my posts, and don't anticipate using these types of tactics in the future.

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon


----------



## Nellisir

rickajr said:
			
		

> I hear you playing the devil's advocate from WOTC
> - but it's NOT a good thing - the SRD/OGL is brilliant and in my opinion making the crunchy bits of Dragon OGL would increase readership and make the content truly useful.




I want OGC.  I DON'T buy a good amount of WotC stuff, or ANY Kalamar, Ravenloft, or Dragonlance material, because it's not OGC.  I suspect, though I don't know, that Erik (who's done some 3rd party work himself) would like OGC in Dragon.

I'm just saying, if it ain't happening, don't assume it's his decision.

Cheers
Nell.


----------



## velm

I would LOVE to get them online.  When I read about some of the current issues, I was really interested in them.  I like the Outer Planes and Demons/Devils, and when I read that one of current issues had some info on one of the major demons, it got me interested.  
Selling them PDF would be a good thing, either as an issue per issue basis or maybe do another (mini) dragon archive, or sell them in blocks of 10 issues or what not.


----------



## The Gryphon

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> The "Dragon Unleashed" relaunch gave us solid formats to introduce a new PC race in the form of "Winning Races," for example, but six issues later I am left with the conviction that we simply don't need to be running "Winning Races" every single issue. Very few D&D players realistically create 12 new characters a year, so we'll be easing off this feature a little. Ditto "Gaining Prestige," but perhaps even moreso. We will of course continue to publish prestige classes, but we'll try to do so only when there's a really good reason, surrounded by all sorts of compelling cultural and roleplaying information.




I think dropping Winning Races to an occasional feature is a mistake. Sure most people aren't going to create 12 new characters per year, but just like the other articles which are staying in every issue not every article will be useful to every person each month.

Also the races are not just a player resource, they are an aid DMs when creating new areas of the campaign world or adding a twist to an adventure. I'm sure a few DMs could use more than 3-4 new races a year.

Dropping the frequency of Gaining Prestige is also an error in my opinion. There has only been a single prestige class every month since the change, from this column I might add (this is already a large reduction compared to dragon most of the time before the change of format). Contrary to popular opinion not all prestige classes need compelling cultural and roleplaying information, as some are just a widely held archetype which has previously been unexplored. Often making a prestige class too specific is the problem.

This again is also a DMs resource. Whether the class is exactly what you're looking for or not it gives you ideas and a basis for a class you might want to create for your game.




			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Here's what's basically staying every issue: Ecology, Spellcraft, Bazaar of the Bizarre, Sage Advice, Class Acts.




I think you mean Magic Shop not Bazaar of the Bizarre 




			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> To be clear, while Dungeon is the magazine for DMs, Dragon is the magazine for D&D enthusiasts of all stripes, so look for material that speaks to both players and DMs. Class Acts really speaks directly to the casual player--those guys in every campaign who only own the Player's Handbook, or maybe not even that. It's a monthly place for them to turn for easy-to-digest articles about their favorite class, meant to be read at the game table during a break. The continued success of the hobby revolves around converting these folks into more active players, so in my view Class Acts is absolutely critical and is staying. We'll do what we can to make each installment as inspiring and exciting as possible, for novices as well as old hands.




Since you are insistent on continuing this column could you please format it like the rest of the magazine, 3 columns per page and continue the articles on one after another instead of starting each class on a separate page. As at 11 pages per issue this column seems excessive, as it occupies around 10% of the magazine's total page count (and around 14% of the total gaming content).




			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> As to the general comment that the magazine is "too boring," well, it's my hope that cutting down the repetitive "familiars" (or at least the frequency with which they appear) will allow for more room for dynamic features. Also, see my comments above vis a vis the crunch/fluff ratio.




Of the repetitive familiars which are being cut back and were specifically mentioned, such as Winning Races and Gaining Prestige, these are often more fluff than crunch (especially in the case of Winning Races) in the first place so it makes little sense to cut them in preference to more dynamic features. While cutting back the page count for Class Acts will get more room without cutting content that I like 


Thank you for listening.


----------



## qstor

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> GREYHAWK: Anyone who has followed my career knows that I love the Greyhawk setting and will do everything I can to ensure that it is supported. Unfortunately, Wizards of the Coast has a very, very, very complex strategy related to this setting which sometimes makes it difficult to know what will and what won't be approved. I have received the go-ahead for a series of articles on the core pantheon gods, and I'm currently working up an appropriate outline for these articles to send off to trusted freelancers. It'll probably be a few months before something happens. Beyond that, I'd like to do some article tie-ins to the Living Greyhawk campaign, but again, I have multiple masters to serve on this issue, and will do what I can.
> 
> ECOLOGY FORMAT: For right now, we're going to stick with a slightly expanded version of the "no fiction or footnotes" version that we have now. I'm afraid that my "jokey" impulse is relatively low, so while I appreciate the work Johnathan Richards put into his Ecology articles and I always enjoy his "Challenge of Champions" adventures in Dungeon, the Monster Hunter Society plays fantasy a little goofier than I tend to prefer. Whether that makes me visionary or a big bore is for time (and, of course, Mr. Richards) to decide.
> 
> HISTORICAL ARTICLES: I like 'em. #329's got an article on the historical and mythological origins of popular D&D monsters as well as a Mesopotamian pantheon for your campaigns. More stuff along these lines will appear in the following months.
> 
> DRAGON'S BESTIARY: Monster articles will definitely be a part of my tenure on the magazine. Look for bestiary articles as well as irregular "Creature Catalogs" like the dozen-page monsters they used to do back in the day.
> 
> CAMPAIGN CLASSICS: I loved issue #315, and would like to find a way to do something along those lines annually. Ideally, the articles would be a little less tangential than the ones in #315. This is something that will be better with more planning, so I intend to start thinking seriously about it after I return from the holiday break in early January.
> 
> ZOGONIA: I love Zogonia, and it isn't going anywhere.
> 
> ORDER OF THE STICK: Fans of this strip have very definitely been heard. It is indeed hilarious.
> 
> That's it for now.
> 
> --Erik Mona
> Editor-in-Chief
> Dragon & Dungeon




Well these are all good reasons for me to renew. I still dont care for the Class Acts articles. I think the 6 pages they take up is better used for other stuff. I'm glad you're keeping the comics. I hope the fiction stays too. I'm looking forward to the article series on the Core gods.

Mike


----------



## shady

So ... ummm ... didn't see an answer (maybe I should have made my question more obvious). Can Paizo not do adaptations of MtG material for d20, or is it just a bad idea?


----------



## Ranger REG

shady said:
			
		

> Can Paizo not do adaptations of MtG material for d20, or is it just a bad idea?



Bad idea, at least for anti-TCG guys like me.

If you're going to feature _Greyhawk,_ you might as well transfer the LGJ back to _Dragon._

Like you, *Erik Mona,* I like the old-style _Dragon_ that promote in-house products like _Top Secret._ Bring back the ARES section, and I will look forward to the next issue with great anticipation.

But for now, you'll have to settle with my "meh" reaction. Trust me, if a gamer geek is more excited about the next issue of _Playboy_ than he is about _Dragon,_ you better take drastic measure.


----------



## khyron1144

One reason I don't buy Dragon as often as I used to:
$6.99 is a bit more than $4.99


Also, there used to be a Media Play within pretty close distance of my dad's apartment that carried Dragon.  It closed about a year or two ago.  Since then a new giant book store, second location of a local independent store, has opened up fairly close by but they do not carry Dragon.  So, add at least a half hour walk to closest place to buy Dragon to my reasons.



Third reason: the themes and articles of specific issues.  Some things just don't appeal to me, April issues whose only nod to the Holy Day of Fools is longer comics being one.  


Things that *will get me to shell out $6.99:*
I like gameable April Fools' content like the *"Crazed Book of Mog"* from Dragon #204, so jokes with stats.


Things that show a respect for or at least an acknowledgment of the long history of our game, specifically 3e conversions of older races and classes.


Barbarian-friendly prestige-classes.


----------



## Erik Mona

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Like you, *Erik Mona,* I like the old-style _Dragon_ that promote in-house products like _Top Secret._ Bring back the ARES section, and I will look forward to the next issue with great anticipation.




Nothing about my experience with adding Polyhedron to Dungeon suggests to me that this would be a smart business move. I know you love nonstandard D&D, Reg. I like it, too. But we tried it, and while it worked brilliantly from a creative perspective, it wasn't good for business. I'd be a fool to repeat that experiment in Dragon.



			
				Ranger REG said:
			
		

> But for now, you'll have to settle with my "meh" reaction. Trust me, if a gamer geek is more excited about the next issue of _Playboy_ than he is about _Dragon,_ you better take drastic measure.




A drastic measure like printing pictures of hot naked chicks? Something tells me TheSigil (and about 99% of our readers) wouldn't approve. I've got to compete with the Internet, with d20 products, and to some extent even with WotC releases. Please don't also make me compete with porn. I don't think that's a battle I can win. 

Merry Christmas!

--Erik


----------



## Ranger REG

I was referring to the articles, not the pictorials. You can do better.

But if you bring back that Elmore's Hafling rogue...


----------



## thundershot

Oh yeah.. I forgot about the April Fools articles.. Usable humorous content. Like... the Portable Hole full of Beer series (that fizzled out... sigh..)


Chris


----------



## shady

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Bad idea, at least for anti-TCG guys like me.



 My point was that there are tons of interesting monsters and setting background sitting in the MtG backlot, not that there should be MtG/CCG articles in Dragon. 

 OK. I'll ask again ... Erik, are you prevented or deterred from using MtG stuff as background


----------



## Erik Mona

shady said:
			
		

> My point was that there are tons of interesting monsters and setting background sitting in the MtG backlot, not that there should be MtG/CCG articles in Dragon.
> 
> OK. I'll ask again ... Erik, are you prevented or deterred from using MtG stuff as background




My understanding is that the Magic brand team doesn't want its creatures used for D&D.

--Erik


----------



## wingsandsword

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Nothing about my experience with adding Polyhedron to Dungeon suggests to me that this would be a smart business move. I know you love nonstandard D&D, Reg. I like it, too. But we tried it, and while it worked brilliantly from a creative perspective, it wasn't good for business. I'd be a fool to repeat that experiment in Dragon.



Well, I see it as being different because of one significant feature about the history of those magazines.  Dungeon (unless I am greatly mistaken) was always a magazine of D&D adventures, and adding general d20 materials to it was a significant diversion from it's core.  While I for one loved Polyhedron, it appealed to a somewhat different audience than Dungeon (DM's wanting dedicated D&D adventures as opposed to fans of the d20 System in general).

Dragon was always until only a few years ago a general gaming magazine that focused on D&D as it was a TSR (and later WotC) house organ.  It would at least acknowledge games by other makers, and would give an occasional article to TSR/WotC games other than D&D.  Dragon was the magazine of Role Playing Games, now it's just the magazine of D&D.  I remember reading voraciously the articles about Marvel Super Heroes and Alternity.  Longtime (relatively, meaning 5+ years) Dragon fans will remember this, and an occasional short article about d20 Star Wars, or d20 Modern, or generally a new rules idea for the d20 System in general besides D&D (Like an article giving alternate Hit Point/Damage systems and examples of how they would be used in D&D and d20 Modern) would not be as opposed to the general direction of the magazine in Dragon (with its prior heritage as a D&D oriented general gaming magazine) as opposed to Dungeon (with its prior heritage as an outlet for D&D adventures).


----------



## dargoth3

Eric

You seemed to have missed my question about the Faithes of Faerun articles (Apologies if you did and I missed it)

Will the Faithes of Faerun articles continue to appear in revised Dragon and if so which issue will have the next one?


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## Darrin Drader

Erik,

I just wanted to comment that I still purchase Dragon and Dungeon on a monthly basis. I'll be re-upping my subscription as soon as it is convenient for me to do so.

Not every Dragon magazine is useful to me when I purchase it, but I often go back through and find worthwhile gems that I either missed before or had no use for at the time. That's one of the strengths of both of these magazines - every issue is a keeper. The material can always be incorporated later. If the edition changes, you can keep the flavor but change the mechanics of a piece. Now at this point in time, I have no need to introduce the flumph into my game, but it was pretty cool to see the article on exalted heroes and anti-heroes.

If there is one thing I would like to see, its more interesting covers. I understand the reason that character study covers are being done now instead of the classic scene style covers, but I want to see more covers that appear similar to the ones from the first couple hundred issues of the magazine.

By the way, keep printing the Wil Wheaton columns in Dungeon. They rock! And best of luck in 2005. I'll keep buying them as long as you keep printing them.


----------



## SJE

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> So, if you're _not_ a regular customer of Dragon magazine (let's say you buy fewer than three issues annually), please take a minute or two to answer the following questions.
> 
> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?
> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?
> 
> I very much appreciate your time and attention.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Erik Mona





I dont buy it because Dragon has marginalised itself into a D&D only house organ. Now I used to have a regular subscription for it with my newsagent back in 1990-96. I also sought out a great many issues from the late 80's. The reason was that Dragon covered the whole gaming spectrum. Sure there were AD&D only articles, but there were also articles on other games that gave me fascinating insights- the Top Secret disaster table, the Dragon of other RPG articles and more. It also had reviews which opened my eyes up to whole branches of gaming undreamt of by TSR- Dragon was were I learnt of TORG, of Cthulhu, of Star Wars (WEG). 
It also had wonderful, scholarly articles on Greek Gods, Mediavael society, and weapons technology that inspired game ideas and established authenticity.  
You know what else I miss? The Forum column. Before the Internet, it was where we could debate great ideas amongst each other- tell heart warming stories of gaming experiences, and occasionally erupt into safe flame wars. Since people actually wrote letters back then, considered, revised works of writing than the instant response online messages of today, plus only the best replies were selected by the editor,  it had a lot more depth and usefulness than we see today on the Internet forums.

So I stopped buying Dragon when it became a boring D&D-only zone filled with pointless Prestige classes and feats. Its still that way today- I looked at recent issues and there was a bit more on running your fantasy D&D campaign, but it was still horribly restricted to that single, rather boring topic.

The changes I'd like to see:

-Coverage of the entire gaming industry
-a reviews column
-a computer gaming column for RPG's/wargames
-Forum pages
-non-D&D articles
-possibly a minatures or mini painting column.
-Get the KoDT strip back- that was great.

Now as it happens, one magazine has recently made it back to my subscription list, as it fulfills all these criteria and most resembles the Roger Moore Dragon Magazine of the early 90's. It is of course Knights of the Dinner Table, which to my mind has become the natural successor to Dragon, while Dragon has fenced itself off into the cul-de-sac of D&D only players. 

SJE


----------



## Yair

Alright, so I'm late in posting this. But here's my take.

I live in a foreign country, so can't purchase Dragon off the shelf. My only option is to buy it via a subscription. Out of nostalgia for the old days I did subscribe for a time, but not long. Why?

- Long delivery time. It's just irritating when the magazine reaches you two months after everyone is talking about it. It's downright annoying when it never does (that happened too).
- Lack of meaty content. I'm sorry, but for the most part the articles were immature and seemed to be nothing short of commercials. I blame the short format, an over-emphasis of mechanics via flavor, and some unknown Hasbaro executive deciding to self-pollinate D&D and Dragon. 

It seems Erik may very well be correcting a large part of #2, but I doubt if he can fix my local mail service. I also think I've just outgrown Dragon - it was great when I was a child, but now...   

Anyways, here's for a better, more successfull magazine! *raises toast*


----------



## Ranger REG

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> My understanding is that the Magic brand team doesn't want its creatures used for D&D.



I cannot believe WotC's R&D Group (aka the _D&D_ brand team) are playing second fiddle to those guys. Stop playing nice to them folks and do it to spite them. What are they gonna do? Smite ya with cards?

Although I for one would never buy a _M:tG_ RPG product.


----------



## John Morrow

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> ONLINE ARCHIVE: We're working with Wizards of the Coast to figure out a way to sell PDF back issues on our website. I know this isn't quite what a lot of people have in mind (preferring something free), but we're running very, very slim margins as it is, and cannot provide material for free when the same material could be released at a nominal cost that would cover the effort required to put the whole thing together. No one is getting rich producing Dragon and Dungeon. In fact, quite the opposite.




In my opinion, I would be happy if you simply kept the old Dragon archives available and then sold update CD-ROMs for issues after 200 in 25, 50, or 100 issue packages for something like $20 to $30.  Since I'm a Mac user, I need something that works with a Mac and while I can't use the index feature in the Dragon archive CD set that is available, the PDF format works for me.

To answer the original question, I stopped buying Dragon at issue 200 (after buying almost every issue starting at 47), because I couldn't find a copy -- that special edition sold out and since I wasn't playing D&D at the time, I simply gave up buying it.  What made me start buying Dragon again very recently (and also Dungeon)?  I started running a D&D 3.5 game so it became interesting to me again.  Having recently gone through those older issues of Dragon to mine them for material (via the CD-ROM archive), I still get the impression that there are a few places where the old (pre-120s) Dragon may have been better.  If I have more time, I'll try to quantify why I feel that way and I'm aware that a certain amount of nostalgia might be in play.


----------



## John Morrow

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> In the earliest days of Dragon, what many readers and posters to this thread consider the magazine's "golden" era, a great deal of space in the magazine was dedicated to simply fixing or explaining a fairly complex, not altogether unified game filled with countless sub-systems and a fair amount of arbitrary architecture.




One of the other things that the old issues of Dragon had were articles that detailed specific elements of the game by adding new rules and providing lists and tables.  While I don't think you should emulate the uneven and ad hoc nature of those "golden era" articles, I'm thinking about articles along the lines of either the city building web enhancement for the DMG (11 pages) or the sanity rules in Unearthed Arcana.



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> So, to those of you who say "Dragon has too much crunch and not enough fluff," I offer my whole-hearted agreement. Give me a couple months, and take another look.




I'm not sure that the problem is so much "crunch" vs. "fluff" but the sorts of crunch that are being offered.  I think that a certain amount of applied crunch can have a place.  For example (and Dragon may have already covered some of these issues during the years when I wasn't buying it so take these as examples), crunchy or semi-crunchy articles on movement and combat in zero-G, infected wounds, a more detailed treatment of poison and poisoning, a detailed treatment of tracking, rules for handling barter economies, random tables for deciding what a building is and what's in it, etc.  All of those things could get fairly crunchy but also provide inspiration.



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> We'll probably be adding a review section to the magazine to spotlight useful sourcebooks and nonfiction volumes that can help you craft a better campaign or a better character, but I want to get the format right before I take that plunge.




Personally, I have more use for long reviews than short reviews.  It's easy enough to find a short review or some opinions about a book on the web.  What I want are longer and more detailed reviews.



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 330: Into the Far Realm, a 10,000-word overview on how to add Far Realm "bleed" into your material world, by Bruce R. Cordell, creator of the Far Realm and one hell of a creative genius. Contains new monsters, new spells, and a whole lot of disturbing imagery. Anyone wanting to add an element of cosmic horror to their games would do well to check out this primer.




This is yet another good way to write articles that add things, and it should be fairly drop-in.  Great!



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Later: Articles on cities of the Forgotten Realms by Ed Greenwood. Look for 4-6 of these annually for as long as we can get away with it. Probably about 5000 words each. Meaty. I'm basically just letting Ed go wild with these, and we'll be sure to illustrate them lavishly with "National Geographic"-style fold-out maps and maybe some posters. I'll do what I can afford to do.




Also good.  Articles that detail places, including cities, villages, or even individual buildings are good, especially if they have elements that are generic enough to be adaptable to any setting.  Articles detailing natural places, a desert, woods, a swamp, etc. with a broader ecosystem and things like detailed encounter tables could also be helpful.  "If I wanted into the Orange Woods, what will I run into?"  If you keep the regions fairly small, or at least self-contained, they could have a lot of drop-in utility for me as a GM.

Concerning maps, I purchased the 300th issue of White Dwarf pretty much simply for the map that was included.  Good maps (and I don't think the Eberron map that was recently included was good--see that White Dwarf map) can sell a magazine.



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> But we'll also include plenty of non-setting support. Some of my favorite articles from the recent years have been "Campaign Components," like the Swashbuckler and Spies issues. Look for more of this in the coming months.




I think that's good, but as a GM or player, I'm more interested in rules for detailing those elements of the game than prestige classes or more feats (e.g., lists of DCs and details that can affect skill use that either a player or GM can use).  Tell me how to detail a swashbuckling fight or espionage mission with the existing rules and classes rather than adding new prestige classes and feats.  Overall, I think you are on the right track thinking about providing inspiration.



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I don't have much to say about fiction that I haven't said already. I'm aware that most posters here don't like it. I have yet to make any critical decisions on what must be done. In the mean time, we're printing something like three or four stories a year, so those of you who hate the fiction won't have to suffer much.




The only pure fiction that I've ever found really enjoyable in Dragon was the story about an online role-playing game that appeared years ago that did a pretty good job of anticipating, in the early 1980s I think, the online games that would appear years later.

Articles on dealing with the social aspect of role-playing, play styles, finding time to role-play, and resolving particular sorts of in-game problems and conflicts could also be useful.  Judging by the online discussions that I see, this is a major problem that saps a lot of enjoyment out of the hobby and drives people away.  

A final bit of advice that I'll give is to find some copies of Different Worlds, The Space Gamer, Arcane, Interactive Fantasy, and other gaming magazines during their golden eras and see if there was anything they were doing that Dragon should have been doing and could do.  You can always learn something from the competition.


----------



## RFisher

John Morrow said:
			
		

> I'm not sure that the problem is so much "crunch" vs. "fluff" but the sorts of crunch that are being offered.




Ah!

When people complain about too much crunch they often specifically cite feats, prestige classes, &c.

Look at something like the 3e vehicle rules that _Dragon_ published. A whole new subsystem like that is the kind of crunch I would prefer to more feats or prestige classes. While the current system does cover a lot of ground in a cohesive fashion, certainly there are still new arenas to be explored.

Variants on existing systems would be good too, like the stuff that ended up in _Unearthed Arcana_.

In fact, d20 publishers should be encouraged to submit articles about variant rules to _Dragon_ in order to get some feedback from the readers before including it in a full product.


----------



## Mouseferatu

RFisher said:
			
		

> In fact, d20 publishers should be encouraged to submit articles about variant rules to _Dragon_ in order to get some feedback from the readers before including it in a full product.




That's problematic, given Dragon's OGC status--specifically, it's not OGC. If a publisher prints something in Dragon without special dispensation ahead of time, they _can't_ later use it in their own product.


----------



## Ghostwind

Well Erik, I went ahead and did it. Based upon what you have said about the changes and new directions of things to come, I've renewed my Dungeon subscription for one year and signed up for a year of Dragon. So, you have a loyal subscriber for the next year. Give me your best with every issue and I'll likely keep going beyond that one year period. But leave me dissatisfied as I have been in the past and one year is all you will get. Here's hoping that the promised improvements live up to their hype.


----------



## Ranger REG

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> That's problematic, given Dragon's OGC status--specifically, it's not OGC. If a publisher prints something in Dragon without special dispensation ahead of time, they _can't_ later use it in their own product.



Perhaps it should be a case-by-case basis, between Paizo and the individual professional authors.

I just hope they factor in reprinting issue, including digital/electronic reprints ... should Paizo decided to produce and sell a second _Dragon Magazine Archive_ software.


----------



## Mouseferatu

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Perhaps it should be a case-by-case basis, between Paizo and the individual professional authors.
> 
> I just hope they factor in reprinting issue, including digital/electronic reprints ... should Paizo decided to produce and sell a second _Dragon Magazine Archive_ software.




I'd love for that to be the case. I've both read and written material for Dragon that I dearly wished could be OGC. At least for the time being, however, I know that's not likely to happen often.


----------



## RFisher

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> That's problematic, given Dragon's OGC status--specifically, it's not OGC. If a publisher prints something in Dragon without special dispensation ahead of time, they _can't_ later use it in their own product.




1. Obviously both sides would want to get the legal situation straight up front.

2. OGC isn't a requirement for republication. If the author retains the copyright, they can do whatever they want with it. If the copyright gets assigned to Paizo, they can permit the material to be reprinted completely outside the OGL.

(OK, there's a million different possibilities. While the author might retain the copyright, he might have a legal agreement with Paizo that gives them some exclusive rights. The point is that--whatever the situation--the two parties can make anything they can come to consensus on happen. The OGL is just one way--albeit a very liberal way--of doing things. Indeed, a d20 publisher doing this, however, might _not_ want to make the content OGC until the later appearance in a stand-alone product.)

It does seem to me, however, that--at the moment--there are many obstacles to d20 publishers using _Dragon_ to preview material the way EGG did in the old days. WotC R&D could, I suppose. & the obstacles for other d20 publishers aren't insurmountable if Paizo & a publisher cared to do so.

Edit: Still, it seemed worth throwing the idea out there. Couldn't hurt.


----------



## Mouseferatu

Oh, sure, anything's possible if the two parties come to the right agreement. And I know from personal experience Erik and the Paizo staff are friendly, reasonable people.

But the standard contract for almost all RPG companies is work for hire. That means the publisher retains all right to everything not specifically licensed elsewhere (such as in the SRD, or for licensed products like Black Company or Star Wars). And since WotC draws some of their new material from Dragon, I don't see them letting Paizo alter that arrangement except on a _very_ occasional basis.

Don't mean to sound glum, or shoot down the idea. As I said, I'd love to see it happen. I'm just also aware of the standards in this industry, and doing such things isn't as easy--or as straightforward--as many people believe.


----------



## shady

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> I cannot believe WotC's R&D Group (aka the _D&D_ brand team) are playing second fiddle to those guys. Stop playing nice to them folks and do it to spite them. What are they gonna do? Smite ya with cards?
> 
> Although I for one would never buy a _M:tG_ RPG product.



 This is maybe a different thread, but I find it difficult to believe that WotC's cards group thinks MtG is a bigger brand than Everquest, Warcraft or Buffy. Or that (since it would be done by sub-brand) Mirrodin is a bigger brand than (see previous list). OK not difficult to believe (and I'd suspected as much), but difficult to believe that WotC management lets them think it.

 In general, a few points (and again, maybe this should be a different thread, as it's not so related to Dragon):
 - many of the best RPG products and product lines of recent years, have used or introduced specific settings - Eberron, Arcana Unearthed, Iron Kingdoms, Midnight, etc. Some of the stuff from those settings is more widely usable in homebrew, and of course the designers have an eye on that anyhow, but within the new setting context you can bring together a number of new ideas, rules and concepts and play with them in a convincing manner.
 - MtG has a number of interesting settings, mechanisms, creatures etc which could be mapped in interesting ways to D20, at no harm to the MtG brand. In fact MtG retires settings even more ruthlessly than D&D does. I can understand those who dislike the game ... personally I'm a fan, I play casually online, and buy a few theme decks to play with the kids, and enjoy it, and I'm impressed by the thought and imagination that goes into the settings.
 - I'd personally prefer more well thought out setting books (like Ghostwalk) to half empty irrelevancies like Races of Destiny and the Arms & Equipment Guide.
 - And also, I would have thought that as a company they'd be interested in feeding their pre-painted miniatures cash cow with interesting new creatures (which is why I'm skeptical about seeing painting & conversion articles in Dragon).


----------



## scourger

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> My understanding is that the Magic brand team doesn't want its creatures used for D&D.
> 
> --Erik




Too Bad!  That could be two great tastes that taste great together.  Hey, you got MTG in my D&D!  Hey, you got D&D on my MTG!


----------



## Perun

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?




Being from Europe, the subscription would cost me 71.95 US$, according to the Paizo site. A bit too much, considering that the National Geographic subscription comes out to less than 50 US$. I know we're almost talking apples and oranges here, but still 70+ $ is way more than I'm willing to spend on a gaming magazine.



> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?




See above


----------



## JoeGKushner

Looking forward to seeing thos changes!


----------



## Ranger REG

shady said:
			
		

> This is maybe a different thread, but I find it difficult to believe that WotC's cards group thinks MtG is a bigger brand than Everquest, Warcraft or Buffy. Or that (since it would be done by sub-brand) Mirrodin is a bigger brand than (see previous list). OK not difficult to believe (and I'd suspected as much), but difficult to believe that WotC management lets them think it.



Well, it's not a bigger brand outside the "unplugged game" market. (The other brands you mentioned span over other mediums). But it is dominating the TCG market as much as _D&D_ dominate the RPG market. And when it comes to unplugged games, TCG ranks right up there with boardgames while RPG is struggling to climb up in a distant third place.

And no, I don't like mixing up TCG with RPG. I want RPG to rival over TCG despite being the underdog.


----------



## velm

Eric mentioned on how the MTG did not want the critters in DND.  I played MTG for a while, from Revised, Antiquities, Legends, Dark, Ice Age.  I think the critters would be a worthy addition to the game.  Take out the MTG name, leave the setting.  A wealth of ideas.  The Elder Dragons would be Awe inspiring.  Many, many possibilies, if done right.


----------



## Dark Psion

I would love to see some Magic:TG conversions myself.

Back during the TSR/WoTC hiatus, I turned to Magic for inspiration to spice up my D&D game. I would love to see many of the older creatures adapted to D&D.

Oh and one of the reasons Magic out does D&D? You can buy it at Wal Mart and other stores. It gets more exposure that way, people who have never set foot in a gaming shop are playing Magic, but not D&D.

As to the Ecology articles, my bigest problem is that the current version sounds like the Players talking and not their Characters speaking. When you refer to a Rakasha's Damage Resistance / Piercing, you destroy the illusion of the fanatsy.

As to Class Acts, please expand them beyond the core classes. One thing 2004 has left us is a lot of unsuported new core classes. Give me a reason to play a Healer, what about a variant "Good" version of the Warlock, the Saint and why not include other "official" D&D classes from Rokugan and Kalamar?


----------



## Treebore

Eric,

I have bought the first two issues of ENWorlds magazine. Their production looks rough but I really like the ideas and variety they are putting out. Heck, I was reading stuff on Cyberware and diseases and not only were they telling me how they would fit into a modern or future d20 game they were telling me how I could use/introduce it into a D&D game. After some thought I realized it would definitely work!  

ITs been years since I saw anything in Dragon to get me juiced about DMing AND playing ideas! Let alone about multiple genre's at the same time!

If they keep it up and improve like they were with their last try they will soon be giving Dragon a run for its money.

As for the MtG hi-jack, they can keep their monsters. Besides, if you look carefully you can see a LOT of similarities that they already have to D&D monsters. I wonder if that would be because the original owners of MtG were all avid D&D players. Avid enough to buy D&D from TSR, avid enough to be inspired by D&D. The connection seemed obvious to me.


----------



## Ranger REG

Dark Psion said:
			
		

> As to Class Acts, please expand them beyond the core classes. One thing 2004 has left us is a lot of unsuported new core classes. Give me a reason to play a Healer, what about a variant "Good" version of the Warlock, the Saint and why not include other "official" D&D classes from Rokugan and Kalamar?



With all due respect, let AEG do _Rokugan,_ and let Kenzer do _Kalamar._ I'm more interested in more WotC's _Oriental Adventures_ material that steer clear of _Rokugan._


----------



## Richards

Originally posted by Dark Psion:







> As to the Ecology articles, my bigest problem is that the current version sounds like the Players talking and not their Characters speaking. When you refer to a Rakasha's Damage Resistance / Piercing, you destroy the illusion of the fanatsy.



That was one of the advantages of putting that sort of information in the footnotes, under the old format.

Johnathan


----------



## Stegger

completely wrong thread!
Sorry.....


----------



## TGryph

*Why I no longer Buy Dragon*

Hello Eric!

     To answer your initial question, after 24 years of steady purchase ( I still have all of them, starting with  #32), I stopped buying Dragon for one primary reason. The magazine has become far too "out there", much as D&D itself has. I no longer want to read about new unbalenced Prestige Classes and Feats, nor does or ever has my world been populated with the innumerable strange, half-breed combos, and bordering on Sci-fi races I have seen lately. I prefer my fantasy to be more traditional and less a  "Gee Whiz Video Game" feel, and stopped buying the magazine when it no longer gave me the solid historical information and practical application it used to in the 1st edition "Glory Days". That is also the time I swtiched to HARP instead of D&D. More rules and rules options do not necessarily make a better game IMHO.

     That being said I DO miss the magazine. It was a monthly staple in my house for all those years - heck, I even had four articles published in it's pages, which thrilled me to no end. But, unless there are major changes that make it once again as useful to non-D&D players as it was, I will not bother to pick it up again.

     TGryph


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Howdy, Eric!

Much like TGryph, I have every issue of Dragon back to #44, and have subscribed since about #100.  I have a couple of issues of Dungeon as well.

I always liked the minis stuff.  I also liked the reviews of 3rd party products- given the nature of the magazine, reviews of TSR/WoTC stuff was always taken with a grain of salt.

The "ecologies" articles always added depth into how certain creatures could be used- they made you think, and often resulted in better play all around.  DMs got a better understanding of how to fit a creature within a setting, while players gained insight into how to play against creatures "realistically."

I miss the high-quality serial strips like "Wormy" and "Fineous Fingers"- few since then have had the consistency that those strips did.

I also miss those mini-games you used to publish...I loved those old Tom Wham games like "Flight of the Boodles" and that "fantasy" football game.

While I don't always need them, I find the rules illustrations/clarifications are invaluable resources in the long run...they tend to be better done than the ones in the game books themselves.

I was dissapointed when (for reasons I understand) Polyhedron was dropped from Dungeon- there simply isn't enough support for Non-D&D D20 campaigning.

One thing I think many people would appreciate would be something that appears on these (and other) boards all of the time- character builds.  With all of the settings, feats & prestige classes (PrCls) out there, it can be bewildering for players to construct their "perfect" swashbuckler or what have you, and misconceptions abound.  I have had to allow some of my players to "edit" their PCs because they chose their initial feats poorly.  In the space devoted to adding several new PrCls, a good writer could present the advantages and disadvantages of various builds for a particular archetype.


----------



## Nellisir

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> With all due respect, let AEG do _Rokugan,_ and let Kenzer do _Kalamar._ I'm more interested in more WotC's _Oriental Adventures_ material that steer clear of _Rokugan._



The more hengayokai, the better the tea party.  

Seriously, some Kara-Tur support (anything involving sohei, wu-jen, korobokuru, spirit folk, and hengayokai) would be great.

I'll have to think about this.
Cheers
Nell.


----------



## The Hollow Eyes

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?
> 
> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?



Not being a magazine reader in general ranks right up there for why I don't buy it. But the rare times I do buy Dragon, I am also reminded why that is. I'm also not a short story reader, and I don't read poetry for the same reason: The content is always too short for my tastes. By the time I finally find the "groove," and really get interested, I've reached the end of that article/poem/story and have to move on to something new, unconnected from the rest. 

So when considering that, and that the price of a Dragon is one-third that of a full book, the magazine just doesn't interest me. I'd rather buy a book, even though I know that I'll get as much or even less use out of it than I would those issues of Dragon. I do think this position of mine is a little weird considering that, for example an article full of feats in Dragon will contain just as many as most books that contain feats.

Maybe it's just the eclectic nature of the articles in a magazine that stops me from buying . . . and so there's really nothing that I could suggest that would make me buy.

The adventure path in Dungeon works for me, though, so perhaps there's something similar you could invent for Dragon.


----------



## Cob #37

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I'm about half-way through a much needed vacation, so of course I'm sitting here thinking about work.
> 
> I know many of you _do_ buy Dragon regularly, and for that I send you a hearty holdiay cheer and a simple statement: thanks.
> 
> But I also know that many of you don't buy Dragon, and I'd like to know why. Over my 20+ years as a D&D player, I've had "on" periods and "off" periods with the magazine, so I know what sorts of things went into my personal decision not to buy Dragon, but I'd like to know yours.
> 
> If I can make some changes to the magazine to make it a more attractive purchase, there's a chance we all go away happy.
> 
> So, if you're _not_ a regular customer of Dragon magazine (let's say you buy fewer than three issues annually), please take a minute or two to answer the following questions.
> 
> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?
> 
> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?
> 
> I very much appreciate your time and attention.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Erik Mona
> Editor-in-Chief
> Dragon Magazine (and Dungeon too!)
> Still on vacation, still working




*No support for OOP editions, simple as that.  I was a subscriber since issue 100, then gave up around 310.

Art was fine, stories were fine, but I bought the magazine for new kits, classes, and rules for 2E.  Since I'm happy with 2E and not planning on siwtching to 3 or 3.5 or whatever will come next, I found the magazine's usefulness not worth the subscription price.*


----------



## Swordsage

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Ok. Here we go.
> 
> Also: Speaking of the Forgotten Realms, I've also got Eric L. Boyd working on a short series of articles on lost empires of the Realms and the items and cultural legacies that remain to this day. Although Eric is weaving these tightly into the Realms continuity, we're trying to make them easily adaptable to just about any campaign.
> 
> --Erik Mona
> Editor-in-Chief
> Dragon & Dungeon Magazines




Whatever happened to this series of planned articles?

The Swordsage


----------



## Aus_Snow

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Why don't you buy the magazine?



Too much advertising. Too little crunch I (or others I know) can use. I always *used* to buy it for the excellent rules options, variants etc.

The former is the major reason I don't buy any magazine these days. The latter is specific to Dragon magazine.



> What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?



See above. Replace "more likely" with "certain", though.


----------



## Christoph the Magus

It got to the point that I was only buying Dragon for the cartoons and the Gary Gygax column.  I realized that without KODT, the toons weren't to my liking and the Gygax column wasn't worth it alone, so I stopped.  Honestly, I don't think that you could lure me back, at least not without some KODT material that wasn't going to appear anywhere else.  I don't know if I outgrew Dragon or what, but it just doesn't appeal to me anymore.


----------



## Silver Moon

I was a subscriber to Dragon from 1982 until 2004.   I didn't renew after my last three-year subscription ended large due to the fact that I was angry with Paizo Publishing.   This was because I had also been a long-time subscriber to Dungeon and had just sent in my three-year renewal a few weeks before you announced a special subscription discount offer.   I asked you if I would be included in that since I had just renewed and hadn't even received my first issue of the renewal but was given an abrupt "No" by you Eric.   It didn't seem like a very fair way to treat long-time loyal fans so I opted to not support your other publication when that renewal arrived.


----------



## jaerdaph

Simply put, I'm not your target audience. I don't play D&D or fantasy RPGs anymore. I play d20 Modern/Past/Future almost exclusively. 

You do put out a heck of a beautiful (and I'm told, more importantly, useful) magazine, though.


----------



## jodyjohnson

Swordsage said:
			
		

> Whatever happened to this series of planned articles?
> 
> The Swordsage




Well Travis Stout is listed as the author of Lost Empires which released two months after this comment from Eric.  Eric Boyd's book (Waterdeep, Champions of Ruin)  released that summer so probably got dropped for two much overlap with the LEoF and Eric was busy with other projects (Dragons of Faerun and Power of Faerun).


----------



## jodyjohnson

Well in the 18 months since this thread died I have once again become a subsriber.


2 Reasons:

1.  Demonomicon articles 3 times a year.

2.  $1 increase in the cover price without a similar change to the subscription price.  Just over 4 issues a year is enough to cover the subscription.


----------



## DethStryke

I'm not really part of the target audience either... I don't play Eberron at all and as a DM I dislike feats/PrCs that are not from the core books on principle.

Dungeon, like everyone else says, is awesome.

Dragon strikes me like a piecemeal "Complete Book of..." from 2E days, which lights the burning hatred in my soul once again. This is probably not fair, and quite possibly not accurate, so I don't recommend anyone listening to it.  That is just my guy feeling on it, and the (baseless?) reasons why I don't subscribe.

For reference, these are/were the subscriptions I have/had and enjoyed immensely!

Johnn Four's Roleplaying Tips Weekly (http://www.roleplayingtips.com)
Polyhedron (Back when it was a separate mag for RPGA members)

Yes, I know I am contradictory and arbitrary in my views, which makes me difficult or impossible to please on this topic.  The way I look at it, this is like TV shows. I'm a minority in my tastes for entertainment. So anything that I enjoy, it is probably not liked by the majority at all and will be cancelled or changed/basterdized until I don't like it any more. The problem is that those changes will make ALOT more people like it instead... so it's considered a "good" change. *shrug* This is why I don't watch TV anymore and didn't own one for seven years before I got married (the wife demanded one. heh). But that's just how life works, and the cost of being eccentric.

Until I'm poor. Then I'll be crazy.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty!

Silver Moon said:
			
		

> I was a subscriber to Dragon from 1982 until 2004.   I didn't renew after my last three-year subscription ended large due to the fact that I was angry with Paizo Publishing.   This was because I had also been a long-time subscriber to Dungeon and had just sent in my three-year renewal a few weeks before you announced a special subscription discount offer.   I asked you if I would be included in that since I had just renewed and hadn't even received my first issue of the renewal but was given an abrupt "No" by you Eric.   It didn't seem like a very fair way to treat long-time loyal fans so I opted to not support your other publication when that renewal arrived.




Something like that happened to me with my ISP.  I was quite annoyed and dropped them since apparently new customers were more important than keeping old ones.

I have no idea if I replied to the topic before but I quit reading Dragon when it really became an house magazine.  I bought a few issues when I was running 3.0, but beyond a couple Greyhawk Journal articles I found the content to be lacking.  Same with White Dwarf.  I used to read that then it went GW only and it became useless to me.  I wish there was a good RPG magazine these days.


----------



## Emirikol

I still subscribe to Dungeon, however I let my 20-year Dragon subscription finally lapse last year.  I still purchase the occasional issue in store.

Here are a few reasons:
1.  I DM and allow everything from Dragon (nowadays) but my players (98% of them) were never subscribers so no one ever used anything.
2.  The "extra work" involved in putting this stuff in our campaigns simply wasn't going to happen, so none of it ever got used. - see my solutions below
3.  There is less 'virginity' in Dragon, since I've been subscribed over many years 
4.  I DM, therefore I Dungeon

How would I change it:
*  Make the presentation more "drop-in house rule" friendly.  The articles are written as if they're being presented to someone who just likes 'pretty things.'  Think about what a "drop-in house rule" friendly format would look like. 

*  I'd put in more arguments and controversy (that's not me talking is it Erik?  that is game-related.   You want more readership?  Give them something to talk about at the gaming table and at ENWorld.  Great articles won't cut it.  Hey look!  It's pretty.  It has a nice layout.  So? 

*  You can only gear this to players if DM's are willing to allow players to use it.  DM's will only allow it if it follows two rules:
**  Easy-to-assess "impacts on your campaign" notes.  Dm's don't have all day to read up on every article.  They just want to see IF it works first.  
**  Side-bar that says that it's been playtested and found to be pretty balanced  

*  Remember "tidbits" of Greyhawk?  There need to be something like this for DM's to use in every article for the big three worlds.  Obviously an Eberron article is not something that's readily crossover, but other articles (for example:  Ecology articles).  

*  A note on Ecology articles:  I think they're dry, even with fluff.  The more fluff there is, the more trouble there is on utility.  As a DM, I want the Ecology articles with the "actual map" and "actual encounter."  I can drop that into my campaign.  I can't drop in some old-geezer telling a story about an encounter with a Stroper-smurf.  If it's going to be geared towards players, have some tactics or play-by-play..SOMETHING useful for players rather than "just another story about just another guy's character."   Really?  When I go to a game store and some guy starts telling me about his character, I glaze over pretty fast 

*  You need to have something on your website called "How to put together your own House Rulebook from Dragon articles."  Have a format, some print-outs and all the pictures of ones that have been created and some sample artwork (maybe?).  I can't tell you how much USE something like this would get and how much more utility you would get out of EVERY Dragon magazine.    Just give DM's that extra help so they can more easily use the magazine.

*  Dragon is the sister/brother magazine to Dungeon.  You have the opportunity to get players to say to their DM's "Holy cow, I want to play that scenario I heard about in Dragon. ."  I'm sorry, but a one-sentence question-blurb on a side-bar isn't enough.  Be an opportunist.  Make it happen.   Think of the kind of text or pictures it would take and make it happen.  You guys are great at finding a format and once you've got that, it's easy to plug in details.  TELL players they NEED to ask their DM to play that scenario based on THEIR WANTS AND NEEDS   Are you familiar with NLP?  http://www.nlp.com/ http://www.nlpu.com/whatnlp.htm 

*  Gamers are aging and have less time to prepare scenarios and campaigns right?  We should see that in any mission statement or promotion for DUNGEON or DRAGON.  "A must for time-crunched DM's."  

Thanks for the great job on Dungeon and Dragon BTW.  This is surely the golden age.

Anyways, I gotta get back to work 

Jay Hafner
Lakewood, CO









..


----------



## JustaPlayer

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I have no idea if I replied to the topic before but I quit reading Dragon when it really became an house magazine.  Same with White Dwarf.  I used to read that then it went GW only and it became useless to me.  I wish there was a good RPG magazine these days.



That's why I liked Campaign.  Then Fast Forward got their hands on it.  It was more a d20 Mag but still it covered lot's of people's stuff.


----------



## smcrey

*Not enough Greyhawk and Dungeon Master articles.*

i am a current subscriber to the magazine and felt like i had a stake in the opinions expressed in this thread.  there are some things about dragon magazine that i like and some things that i do not. i have played the game since the mid 80's and i love most everything that has been made for dungeons and dragons. 

My first complaint is that I dislike the artwork currently in the magazine. I miss artists like Larry Elmore.  The magazine at times appears to come across as juvenile and not appealing to veteran players. I do not disagree with the philosophy of writing Dragon magazine for newcomers, but you should try to maintain interest in the demographic that has played and spent tons of money on Dungeon and Dragons products in general for years. I am dissapointed also with the lack of Greyhawk coverage. Eberron may be the new kid on the block and should be given some coverage but not at the expense of settings that have an established fan base. No setting should be allowed to whither away. This applies to Dark Sun, Planescape, Ravenloft, etc not only Greyhawk.
 I stopped my subscription to Dungeon magazine because of its excessive overrelliance on adventures. i wanted to see an increase in the amount of Dungeon Master content. i do not need an excess of additional prestige classes and rules tweeks, but i would like an article on how to inspire you players to become better players without resorting to power gaming. the characters in my opinion are not just numbers on a sheet of paper but are an opportunity to bring life to a chracter through role playing.

thanks for your time.

Greyhawk lives!!!

Scott McReynolds


----------



## Erik Mona

smcrey said:
			
		

> I am dissapointed also with the lack of Greyhawk coverage.




::boggle::


----------



## Mouseferatu

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> ::boggle::




It's now official, Erik. You cannot win. Ever.


----------



## Piratecat

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> ::boggle::



I am disappointed by your lack of coverage for the game "Boggle."


----------



## Hussar

Ok, this I am curious about.  Too much Eberron content?  THere's been what, 4 articles for Eberron in the last year?  Compared to about twice that for Greyhawk?


----------



## Arashi Ravenblade

Well a number of reasons.

1. It always took too long for my issues to arrive
2. The increase in price.
3. Not enough Forgotten Realms info!
4. Also got sick of the every few issues there being fiction! I want Crunch and Fluff not stories.
5. The Ecologies are boring, even for the monsters i give a crap about. Spellweaver ecology was an example of a good one while the one about Will-o-wisps was a bad one.


Personally the magazine should go something like this

30% for players
30% for DMs
10% Eberron
10% Greyhawk
10% Forgotten


----------



## Arashi Ravenblade

Well a number of reasons.

1. It always took too long for my issues to arrive
2. The increase in price.
3. Not enough Forgotten Realms info!
4. Also got sick of the every few issues there being fiction! I want Crunch and Fluff not stories.
5. The Ecologies are boring, even for the monsters i give a crap about. Spellweaver ecology was an example of a good one while the one about Will-o-wisps was a bad one.


Personally the magazine should go something like this

30% for players
30% for DMs
10% Eberron
10% Greyhawk
10% Forgotten 
and the remaining % for miscellaneous


----------



## babomb

I used to subscribe to Dragon. When a new Dragon came, I'd see all the stuff listed on the cover/ToC, and think "That sounds awesome!". Then I'd read the articles, and they were seldom half as cool as they sounded. Even when they did meet my expectations, they were rarely such that I could easily drop them into my game. I just didn't feel the amount of use I was getting out of them justified the cost. About the only thing I got a significant amount of use from was Dungeoncraft.


----------



## Jdvn1

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> ::boggle::



 I was just as surprised, but because this thread came back from the grave.



I don't remember why I said I don't buy Dragon Magazine before, but it's a money issue. I'd love to be getting it, but I don't have much of an income.


----------



## Buttercup

*1. Why don't you buy the magazine?* I let my subscription run out last year.  (I still subscrbe to Dungeon) I realized that I just wasn't finding enough that interested me anymore.  I have zero interest in FR and Eberron, so most of the articles that tie into those settings don't interest me.  Also, (and I mean no offense by this) I had been feeling like the articles were aimed at 14 year old boys.  Warduke?  Super high powered magic items?  Min-maxing advice?  None of these are of interest to me.  I'm not complaining.  Heck, if you aimed the magazine at me, you'd probably kill it because I'm a demographically unusual gamer.  But you did ask.   

*2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?* Like I said above, don't aim it at me, or you'll kill it!  Low magic campaigns, esoteric discussions of D&D economics and similar kooky topics, chatty articles written by developers of assorted OGL products, and in general the stuff one finds here on EN World would be the kind of stuff I would enjoy.  Don't do it, Eric.


----------



## Greylock

I still buy every issue at the newstand. Why? I feel it's important to support the shops that carry Dragon. It is my favorite magazine, and I want to continue seeing on every stand that carries it. Subscriptions guarantee ad sales, but they do nothing to bring in new readers.

That, and the fact that I lead a very temproary lifestyle. I subscribe to little, beyond basic beliefs.


----------



## Emirikol

Oh, I have to comment on the artwork for issue #345.  It is probably the sweetest cover I've seen in ages (would be even better without the person running in front..cute, but not necessary).



Jay


----------



## ThirdWizard

I don't buy Dragon because I can't imagine ever wanting that much gaming stuff. I don't buy a book unless I know I'm going to use it in my current campaign, and I've already got more than enough to sate me for a very long time through future campaigns. I don't buy them individually because of the price.


----------



## Grymar

For me it is just a question of the amount of content I want to add to my game.  To keep my prep time down, I try and keep the "extra rules" to a minimum unless it is going to add something really fun to the game.  So I use the Core Books, the Complete Series, and a few others, but not much more.

Secondly, I run Eberron and an article every month or so just isn't worth it.  I'll borrow a copy to read the article through to get an idea, then I'll give it back.  If it is really great (the Lords of Dust article, for example) I'll buy that issue on the newstand.

So while I think the mag is well done, there just isn't that much material for me to get out of it.


----------



## jcfiala

I'm finding myself getting more issues of Dragon recently, but part of my problem in the past has been not being in enough 3.5 campaigns as a player.  I'm in a 3.0 campaign as a player, so new rules crunch isn't as useful there, and I'm not as able to use the fluff because I'm not in charge of the world.  I'm now in a 3.5 game with fairly permissive inclusions, so now I'm finding myself looking through Dragon and picking it up when something appeals to me.


----------



## Faraer

DethStryke said:
			
		

> So anything that I enjoy, it is probably not liked by the majority at all and will be cancelled or changed/basterdized until I don't like it any more. The problem is that those changes will make ALOT more people like it instead... so it's considered a "good" change.



That's what the studios and networks want you to think, but I don't see any evidence for it. Remember, "Nobody knows anything."


----------



## werk

Why don't _I_ buy Dragon Magazine?

Two words:  "buy" and "magazine"


----------



## Infernal Teddy

For me, it's a matter of availablity. My FLGS just recieved issue 344, which means it's a god month - I actually was able to see if it interests me.


----------



## Son_of_Thunder

I don't buy it because most of the content is of no use for me. Sure, there's likely to be 3 out of 12 issues that I use something but it doesn't justify me buying the magazine. It's the same reason when Thalmin posts the new catalog listings I don't get enthused about it. It's just more stuff I won't use in my campaign. I've got a campaign I and my players like and don't like more feats, spells, PrC etc. 

Also I lost an incredible amount of confidence when the sealed content issues came out for both Dragon and Dungeon. I was a subscriber at the time and I didn't want the sealed content, didn't have a choice whether I received it or not, it just showed up in my mailbox. Yes, I know it's under new management, but I've gamed fine since then without Dragon and Dungeon and I'll continue fine without them. Will I miss some great content? Yup, but I don't really care because I make up some pretty great content as well.


----------



## Agamon

I subscribed for 4 years, and bought every issue from my FLGS for about 8 years prior to that.  So I have a lot of Dragon mags, but I stopped a little over a year ago.  One reason was the new content change.  I loved the new Dungeon (and still do), but the new Dragon didn't float my boat.  Even before that I was going to stop getting it, because the mags are chalk full of crunch.  I don't especially like reading crunch as much as I used to, and I find the rules in the mags hard to use.  It's difficult to remember them.  And when I do think to use them, they're hard to find.  So they tend to sit on the shelf unused for the most part.

That said, I kinda wish I'd bought it over the past year.  I'm starting my Age of Worms campaign on Sunday, and the Wormfood articles would have been nice to have access to.  Too big of a chunk of change to pick up the 12 back issues just to assist my game....


----------



## Thandren

I have been playing AD&D for a long time and have been playing 3.5 for a while now.  I wanted a magazine to read for D&D to give me ideas for my adventure plot storys and found Dragon was not that, once it was a good D&D magazine, now it is a waste of money for me.  I then bought dungeon and like the fact that each copy has 3 adventures in it.


----------



## philreed

Emirikol said:
			
		

> *  Dragon is the sister/brother magazine to Dungeon.  You have the opportunity to get players to say to their DM's "Holy cow, I want to play that scenario I heard about in Dragon. ."  I'm sorry, but a one-sentence question-blurb on a side-bar isn't enough.  Be an opportunist.  Make it happen.   Think of the kind of text or pictures it would take and make it happen.  You guys are great at finding a format and once you've got that, it's easy to plug in details.




You know, a one-page "player's hook" for each adventure in that month's issue of _Dungeon_ would be a pretty neat feature.


----------



## Driddle

I don't buy it because I can read the issue at Borders book store.


----------



## Nuclear Platypus

Hopefully I didn't skip past this in the umpteen pages but...

I tend to buy Dragon more often, especially if something in the mag interests me. Ditto for Dungeon, which could be tweaked to fit into almost any setting. I tend to skim through everything and anything that catches my attention gets a more thorough look like while I might skip past The Wizards Three, I'll read the new crunch at the end or read the (old school) footnotes for an Ecology article.

This might ruffle some feathers but would it be viable to combine the two magazines into one for a reduced cost like $9.50 or whatever? 

To make stuff spiffier, every 3 months have an issue devoted to a dead world (WotC or 3rd party) or the dead world's hook such as March 2007 will have Birthright / "It's Good to be King!" ruling rules while June 2007 has Princess Ark / airship stuff, etc. Maybe even go so far as to suggest how to do stuff in movies ingame like the Teahouse fight in Kill Bill (low MDTs or a mook rule for example) or virtually any Jackie Chan action sequence instead of the rather dry RAW unarmed combat.

To save the DM the trouble, maybe an extra big issue full of linked Dungeon adventures like a spaghetti Western trilogy (A Fistful of Dice, For a Few Dice More and The Good, the Bad and the DM) for a short campaign arc.

How about giving Tito Jacksons of d20 (d20 Modern or Star Wars) some airtime? Instead of a "Best of 20xx" issue at the end, have it as a pdf download, with subscribers getting a discount, eventually leading to a Dragon Magazine vol 2 cd (Dungeon too!).


----------



## frankthedm

Borrowing heavy from J-Dawg

Because my local public library, where i work, subscribes and I can read the issues there. If an article really grabs me, i can photocopy or snag the issue at the FLGS

Too much wotc oversight.  Dragon seems to have their hands tied by Wotc. The Darksun article was the last straw. The wotc overlords, afraid of anything that might be 'unfun' for players and might cost them even one PHB sale, Pulled the Teeth of the setting.


----------



## Glyfair

Nuclear Platypus said:
			
		

> This might ruffle some feathers but would it be viable to combine the two magazines into one for a reduced cost like $9.50 or whatever?



Yeah, nothing I like more as a DM is for one of my players who subscribes to _Dragon_ be forced to get adventures I might run sent to them


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots

In the very near future, Erik's question will just have a single answer.


----------



## Crothian

No, it will just be "Why don't you buy Pathfinder?"


----------



## rgard

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> In the very near future, Erik's question will just have a single answer.




Nice and timely thread resurrection.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Go back and read the thread, and see how the feedback influenced the magazines.  Thanks, Paizo, for listening.  You could have just blown it off as the rantings of a whiny fanbase, but you didn't.  Companies ask for feedback all the time -- it's a rare pleasure to see people who were sincere about it.


----------



## Cameron

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I'm about half-way through a much needed vacation, so of course I'm sitting here thinking about work.
> 
> I know many of you _do_ buy Dragon regularly, and for that I send you a hearty holdiay cheer and a simple statement: thanks.
> 
> But I also know that many of you don't buy Dragon, and I'd like to know why. Over my 20+ years as a D&D player, I've had "on" periods and "off" periods with the magazine, so I know what sorts of things went into my personal decision not to buy Dragon, but I'd like to know yours.
> 
> If I can make some changes to the magazine to make it a more attractive purchase, there's a chance we all go away happy.
> 
> So, if you're _not_ a regular customer of Dragon magazine (let's say you buy fewer than three issues annually), please take a minute or two to answer the following questions.
> 
> 1. Why don't you buy the magazine?
> 
> 2. What sort of changes would make you more likely to give it another look?
> 
> I very much appreciate your time and attention.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Erik Mona
> Editor-in-Chief
> Dragon Magazine (and Dungeon too!)
> Still on vacation, still working



I don't buy either magazine.

It is a WotC product (if it is not, I do apologise). WotC products are on my list of "banned items wrt purchasing".


----------



## rgard

Cameron said:
			
		

> I don't buy either magazine.
> 
> It is a WotC product (if it is not, I do apologise). WotC products are on my list of "banned items wrt purchasing".




Not being funny, but what does "wrt" mean?

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots

"With regard to."


----------



## Richards

"With regard to" is generally what "wrt" stands for.

Johnathan


----------



## Cameron

rgard said:
			
		

> Not being funny, but what does "wrt" mean?
> 
> Thanks,
> Rich



"with regards to"
"with respect to"

Same thing, really.


----------



## MrFilthyIke

Cameron said:
			
		

> I don't buy either magazine.
> 
> It is a WotC product (if it is not, I do apologise). WotC products are on my list of "banned items wrt purchasing".




Threadcrap.


----------



## Cameron

MrFilthyIke said:
			
		

> Threadcrap.



Can you explain that please? I have no idea what it means...


----------



## Olaf the Stout

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> In the very near future, Erik's question will just have a single answer.




That was my first thought when I saw that this thread had popped up again.    

Olaf the Stout


----------



## rgard

My thanks to everyone for the definition of 'wrt'!


----------



## rgard

Cameron said:
			
		

> Can you explain that please? I have no idea what it means...




I understand it to mean that what was posted was negative and did not contribute to the discussion.  

I did it in a Palladium thread once.  It takes some will power to resist the urge.

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## Cameron

rgard said:
			
		

> I understand it to mean that what was posted was negative and did not contribute to the discussion.
> 
> I did it in a Palladium thread once.  It takes some will power to resist the urge.
> 
> Thanks,
> Rich



OK... That was weird since the OP asked why people don't buy it. I gave my reason.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Well, first of all it was a question posed 2 1/2 years ago.  Second, it was about a magazine that has just recently ceased publication to the dismay of its many admirers.  Third, it hasn't been published by WotC for 5 years, but you were more interested in bashing them then in posting something relevant.


----------



## rgard

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> Well, first of all it was a question posed 2 1/2 years ago.  Second, it was about a magazine that has just recently ceased publication to the dismay of its many admirers.  Third, it hasn't been published by WotC for 5 years, but you were more interested in bashing them then in posting something relevant.




Additionally, the OP wanted to know how to change the magazine so that people would be interested in buying.  

Nothing constructive was offered by you, Cameron.  Hence your post descended to the level of threadcap.

Thanks,
rich


----------



## Cameron

rgard said:
			
		

> Additionally, the OP wanted to know how to change the magazine so that people would be interested in buying.
> 
> Nothing constructive was offered by you, Cameron.  Hence your post descended to the level of threadcap.
> 
> Thanks,
> rich



I answered the title, not the first post.


----------



## +5 Keyboard!

What does it matter?
Threadcrap? More like "thread dead". Though, for future posting, Cameron, reading the entire original post which explains the thread title will help you write better posts "wrt" the subject.


----------



## Eridanis

I think the point is made. Please, let's leave the rest of this thread in peace.


----------

