# Twilight, the Uncertain Knight, and the Distressed Damsel



## Jack7 (Dec 15, 2009)

Okay, in another thread Umbran suggested that I look into the series _*Twilight*_ (which my wife and daughters love), because apparently he and some others (assuming they were being serious, and I can't really know just from a sentence or two on the internet) think there is something wrong with it, or at disturbing about it, at least in part.

And I'm gonna be doing my own investigation into the matter, but from what I can tell, at least preliminarily, the most common objections seem to be centered around the fact that the relationship between the boy and girl is considered abusive or repressive. (Keep in mind folks that I know nothing about this series and have tried my dead-level best to avoid it, because it's a chick thing, and me and most chick things aren't usually all that simpatico. So I'm operating in the dark here.)

Still, I'd like to know what other people's opinions are around here on this matter because I'm assuming that quite a few folks on a  site like this will have opinions one way or another. So if you have an opinion on whether Twilight is good, bad, neutral, silly, corrupting, edifying, or whatever the case, then let me know. I'd appreciate a little detail in order to flesh out the context of what you're saying, but that's up to you.

I'm just soliciting opinions and ideas here. As well as getting some idea of what maybe I should be investigating and what that might mean.

Of course you don't have to limit your comments to those subjects specifically, but that's what I've run across thus far.

Through a slightly wider lens another thing it made me think about is the Romantic Ideal itself. (I got nothing against romance folks, I like some of the aspects of it a'lot, historical and current, and think it has done Western and other societies a lot of good, as well as some real harm.)


*But this whole range of subject matter has made me think about these things in regards to Romance:*

1. When and how is Romance too self-sacrificial?  

2. When and how is Romance too reckless?

3. When and how is Romance too self-absorbed and abusive?

4. When is Romance liberating (in a good sense), and in what ways?

5. How do you balance out Romance to make it both useful and advantageous to everyone involved?


So, if you got some opinions then have at it...
And you don't have to limit yourself to my exact lines of inquiry, but I am interested in your opinions about what I asked.


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## Umbran (Dec 15, 2009)

The National Domestic Violence Hotline has some thoughts on what makes an abusive relationship.  

Adults, with a well-developed and robust sense of self, can read about any relationships they like - sink into the fiction, revel in it, and come back up unscathed.  Kids, who are still developing their sense of self, ought to have some guidance.


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## Jack7 (Dec 15, 2009)

> Adults, with a well-developed and robust sense of self, can read about any relationships they like - sink into the fiction, revel in it, and come back up unscathed. Kids, who are still developing their sense of self, ought to have some guidance.




I couldn't and wouldn't argue against that.


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## Mistwell (Dec 15, 2009)

It's a very popular fantasy series primarily attractive to girls.  And boy geeks tend to bash it because of that fact (not saying Umbran is doing that - just in general).  At least, the extreme negative reaction of many boy geeks sure looks like a territorial geek thing to me.

There is nothing in the Twilight books worse than what young boys routinely read in fantasy and sci-fi.  In fact, there is probably worse in some books routinely read my male teens.  Heck, what was I doing reading Jack L. Chalker's weird sexually charged novels as a teen?  It was marketed to my age, but was not appropriate to my age, and nobody was throwing a fit over it like I see some throwing a fit over the relatively tame Twilight books.

In fact, IMHO, there is nothing worse in Twilight than what you would likely find in the Star Wars series, if you thought about it.  Boy with a crush on his sister hunted by their genocidal father while teaming up with a murderous space pirate and dragging some slave androids along, while shoved into danger by an old man with a death wish who has been spying on him his whole life?  Is that really "better" than the stuff you find in Twilight?


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Dec 15, 2009)

I haven't read them, nor has my wife, so I have no direct experience.  Best I've got is a female friend who described the movie version of the guy as "Creepier than Anakin in _Clones_."

That's pretty creepy.


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## UngainlyTitan (Dec 15, 2009)

Mistwell said:


> snip
> 
> There is nothing in the Twilight books worse than what young boys routinely read in fantasy and sci-fi.  In fact, there is probably worse in some books routinely read my male teens.  Heck, what was I doing reading Jack L. Chalker's weird sexually charged novels as a teen?  It was marketed to my age, but was not appropriate to my age, and nobody was throwing a fit over it like I see some throwing a fit over the relatively tame Twilight books.




I have not read or seen any of the Twilight stuff but I would be very surprised if the above was not true. It strikes me of another twist on books/games/tv etc causes x where x is mostly violence but could be a few other things. The books are a small part of the teenagers life (and if it not then what are the parents doing?) and most peoples preceptions of how relationships work come from seeing their parents relantionships and those of the parents of their friends.


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## Umbran (Dec 15, 2009)

Mistwell said:


> And boy geeks tend to bash it because of that fact (not saying Umbran is doing that - just in general).  At least, the extreme negative reaction of many boy geeks sure looks like a territorial geek thing to me.




I bash it because the writing is sub-par (imho) and the relationships are abusive, but portrayed as positive. 



> It was marketed to my age, but was not appropriate to my age, and nobody was throwing a fit over it like I see some throwing a fit over the relatively tame Twilight books.




True, but Chalker didn't have anything like the popularity or marketing that Twilight does.  Perhaps the difference lies not in the content, but in the prevalence?



> In fact, IMHO, there is nothing worse in Twilight than what you would likely find in the Star Wars series, if you thought about it.




Well, let's think about if for a moment, then....



> Boy with a crush on his sister hunted by their genocidal father while teaming up with a murderous space pirate and dragging some slave androids along, while shoved into danger by an old man with a death wish who has been spying on him his whole life?  Is that really "better" than the stuff you find in Twilight?




Ah, but you see, you are casting the broad plotline into language that reads like these are negative themes.  But what about the specific events in the story?

For example, in the Twilight books...

Boy forces himself on girl (okay, it's YA, so he forces kisses on her).  She fights back, and breaks her hand in the process.  Boy drives girl home.  Girl explains to her Dad how her hand got broken.  Dad _congratulates_ boy, and makes point to girl that maybe this will teach her not to fight back in the future.  

Or maybe this...

Different boy is going away for a while.  Boy _locks girl in basement_ while he is gone, because she is so stupid and clumsy she might get killed while he's away, and he loves her so much he could not bear to lose her.  Girl takes this as a _good thing_, and spends time in basement musing on how much boy must really and truly love her to take care of her so...


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## Shalimar (Dec 16, 2009)

To put it in context since Umbran left the context out on purpouse.  The punch/kiss.  The boy had a crush on her and wanted her to realize that she loved him to and that she didn't need to be turned into a vampire to find someone to love her.  Her father was glad that Jake kissed her, since he really didn't like her boyfriend and Jake was close enough to be part of the family. 



> Dad _congratulates_ boy, and makes point to girl that maybe this will teach her not to fight back in the future.




, her dad apologized for not teaching her how to hit someone properly and told her that he wanted her to always be able to defend herself.



> Different boy is going away for a while. Boy _locks girl in basement_ while he is gone, because she is so stupid and clumsy she might get killed while he's away, and he loves her so much he could not bear to lose her. Girl takes this as a _good thing_, and spends time in basement musing on how much boy must really and truly love her to take care of her so...




Completely and utterly out of context.  He was trying to keep her away from a werewolf.  Werewolfs having incredible anger control problems, in fact the head werewolf had lost control for less than a second and darn near ripped of his fiance's face (the injuries were so bad people thought she was mauled by a bear).  The werewolf in question had been one for less than 3 months, and seemed to lose control of his anger and almost shift fairly often whenever he talked to Bella.

I would also say that calling a sleepover with one of your best-friends where you sleep in a bedroom (on the third floor) being locked in a basement is just a little bit off .  Geek rage for the win I suppouse.  There are legitimate gripes to be had, no need to make stuff up.


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## Dire Bare (Dec 16, 2009)

Shalimar said:


> Geek rage for the win I suppouse.  There are legitimate gripes to be had, no need to make stuff up.




I don't think he's making things up, but rather seeing them from a different perspective.

I haven't read the books myself, but many of my friends have, and more than a few of them have come to the same conclusions as Umbran and find the books distasteful as a result.

We could find plenty of other examples in more "male" oriented fantasy fiction as well, and I've read a lot of that . . . and I turned out okay . . . (I think) . . . so I don't worry about it much.

But it's good to be aware of what you're kids are reading, if possible, so you can discuss these types of things with them.


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## GSHamster (Dec 16, 2009)

I dunno if there's anything majorly wrong with it.

But it is fantasy that is popular with teen girls, and that's an audience which the mostly male scfi/fantasy crowd loves to denigrate (imo, they are still nursing grudges from high school).

The heroine is a little bit passive for my tastes, but other than that I don't think there's anything really negative there.

As far as romance goes, at least everyone in _Twilight_ is smarter than the people in _Romeo and Juliet_, and we force kids to read R+J in school.


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## Mistwell (Dec 16, 2009)

Umbran said:


> Ah, but you see, you are casting the broad plotline into language that reads like these are negative themes.  But what about the specific events in the story?




You mean, like this:



> For example, in the Twilight books...
> 
> Boy forces himself on girl (okay, it's YA, so he forces kisses on her).  She fights back, and breaks her hand in the process.  Boy drives girl home.  Girl explains to her Dad how her hand got broken.  Dad _congratulates_ boy, and makes point to girl that maybe this will teach her not to fight back in the future.
> 
> ...




You just did the exact thing you accused me of.  You could recast those same events as a positive light, or focus on more positive events, just like we could both do for Star Wars.

Which is my point.  There is nothing WORSE in Twilight than in things like Star Wars.  It's a matter of perspective.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Dec 16, 2009)

I did some research and talked to a few people since yesterday, and I'm increasingly of the opinion that the treatment of this subject by these books is bad news.

The comparison to Star Wars are, frankly, silly.  The potentially negative interactions in Star Wars that you describe center on mythic figures and bizarre corner cases.  I'm not going to claim they are totally benign, but the also don't correspond one-to-one with real world problems.  Additionally, the negative states described here don't last.  The characters step out of those negative roles almost immediately.  Luke and Leia drop their almost non-existent sexual tension before they even discover their parentage.  Han doesn't even make it a full movie before reforming from a pirate to a freedom fighter.  And so on.

Incidentally, Han was the most benign "pirate" ever.  He killed no one but bounty hunters and stormtroopers.  What he really is isn't a pirate at all but a whiskey runner, the old American precursor to NASCAR.  The Kessel Run is probably related more to the Cannon Ball Run (the real one) than anything remotely piratical.

Romanticizing a space version of the Duke Boys who only ever kills bounty hunters and stormtroopers is a little different than romanticizing the brooding, secretive loner in your high school who has a tendency towards controlling and abusive behaviors.

The negative interactions in Twilight are endemic in our culture and are being celebrated in the text.  The men are controlling and physically aggressive towards the women.  The romantic lead fits every descriptor of a man who will abuse his partner.  And he is celebrated and romanticized for these traits and actions which we have data showing are the exact traits of actions of men who will physically, emotionally, and sexually abuse women.

Ask yourself this: Would I want my daughter dating a guy who behaved this way?

We literally have epidemic levels of domestic abuse and sexual assault of young women.  Romanticizing the traits of abusive men isn't exactly going to turn those statistics around.  That kind of characterization of "love" is why I had female friends in high school who were desperately trying to marry guys who used them as punching bags.

Some of these are themes that can be explored with good intentions.  Mass marketing the rigorously confirmed traits of abusers as romantic to a population that is already at risk?  That's more than a little sketchy, wot?


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## Jack7 (Dec 17, 2009)

Thanks to everyone who has offered an opinion thus far.

I would have responded sooner but I got wrapped up in an old homicide cold case which it looks like I'll now be able to resolve.

Given the variety of the state of views about Twilight I'd say I'm gonna hav'ta watch the movie for myself (something I'm not looking forward to, but I reckon I oughtta to know for sure) and see the exact context, and what's going on.

For any of those who know or are fans, I guess my big question is, do the characters change over time? By that I mean do they improve in their behavior? 

Anyways, thanks for your comments.

For now I gotta go and put some last minute case file details to bed, but, I'm just wondering (being a dad of young girls and all), do you think modern, popular (pop culture) ideas about romance are very different from those of say 30 or so years ago (I already suspect I know the answer to that), and if so exactly how?

And whaddaya think about that? 

See ya.


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## Shalimar (Dec 17, 2009)

Yes, the characters do change over time.  The boyfriend gets called on his behavior by his family telling him he is way too overprotective and irrational, and he stops.  The werewolfs and vampires start off hating each other for what I suppouse people could boil down to racism (aside from the fact that werewolfs exist only to protect humans from vampires) and eventually over the 3rd and 4th books coming to standby and work wth the good vampires and a few of them become prettty good friends though there is natually some rivalry.

I think that honestly there are both good and bad things in the books, and that if you go in looking for things to hate you'll find them.  If you just want to be entertained, the books are fine.  I'd certainly never accuse them of being great literature, but I do think they are enjoyable.  I've read through them a number of times when I'm looking for something light to read.  I will say that Midnight Sun which is Twilight (the first book, or at least part of the first book) told through the point of view of the vampire boyfriend shows that he knows just how irrational he is, and shows how crazy the other vampires around him think he is.  No one really considers him to be well adjusted or a model boyfriend at least within the books.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Dec 17, 2009)

Jack7 said:


> For now I gotta go and put some last minute case file details to bed, but, I'm just wondering (being a dad of young girls and all), do you think modern, popular (pop culture) ideas about romance are very different from those of say 30 or so years ago (I already suspect I know the answer to that), and if so exactly how?
> 
> And whaddaya think about that?
> 
> See ya.



My experience is that indie stuff is more likely to be fairly egalitarian nowadays, but the mass market stuff is, at best, filled with extremely mixed messages.  I think old Rock Hudson romantic comedies from the 50s and 60s are more progressive in their treatment of relationships than most modern movies, for example.

I think it's better than it was when I was a kid in the early 80s but somehow worse than it was 2 decades before that.  Or maybe that perception is colored by what survived from the 50s and 60s.  Hard to say.  I definitely don't have rose-colored glasses about my youth, though.  Gender roles in mass media in the 80s were pretty over the top.  It got better in the 90s and then worse again in the aughts.  Way worse, IMO.

Maybe it's just a cycle.


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## Mark (Dec 17, 2009)

I'm not obsessed or embarrassed but I usually wear a sweater over my Team Esme shirt.


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## dogoftheunderworld (Dec 17, 2009)

Dire Bare said:


> But it's good to be aware of what you're kids are reading, if possible, so you can discuss these types of things with them.



Most importantly.  

I read them because the tweens in my youth group were reading them.  Too much angst for me, and yes, I would say a little over the top with bad relationship modeling.  

Again, know what your children (and children you feel responsible for) are reading, watching, doing; so you can bring to light the good, the bad, and the ugly.


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## hexgrid (Dec 18, 2009)

I think Twilight is about as likely to create abusive relationships as D&D is to create murderous devil worshipers.


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Dec 18, 2009)

I agree with hexgrid in that the villainization of the Twilight series is very much like the demonization of D&D in the 80s, or the Doom video game in the 90s.

I've read the first three books and enjoy them, though the teen angst gets a little heavy at times.  There's nothing there that suggests abusive relationship to me.  The personality traits of Edward are those of a vampire resisting his nature.  You can attempt to assign metaphors if you like, but the main reading audience of this series, in general, doesn't.

As others have said, it is the responsibility of parents to pay attention to what their kids are reading, watching on TV, listening to, etc.  I have four kids, the oldest of which just hit teenager-hood.  We won't be letting him, or any of the kids, read Twilight until they are 16.

Just as we don't let them watch PG-13 movies until we've screened them first.  Or play rated T games until we've played them first.

Twilight is a fun little vampire romance, nothing more.


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## Mistwell (Dec 18, 2009)

Canis said:


> I did some research and talked to a few people since yesterday, and I'm increasingly of the opinion that the treatment of this subject by these books is bad news.




Did you read the books? If no, then you "doing some research and talking to people" seems woefully inadequate given you can actually judge it for yourself.  



> The comparison to Star Wars are, frankly, silly.




No sillier than what I think people are warping out of the Twilight books without reading them.



> The negative interactions in Twilight are endemic in our culture and are being celebrated in the text.  The men are controlling and physically aggressive towards the women.




They are controlling and physically aggressive, in general, not just to women.  Same as in Star Wars.  Same as in most adventure material.  Male hero characters tend to be physically aggressive and controlling in adventure tales.  It's just that, usually, that material is aimed at a young male audience.



> The romantic lead fits every descriptor of a man who will abuse his partner.




No, he does not.  Again, you clearly have never read the material you're making MASSIVE assumptions about.



> And he is celebrated and romanticized for these traits and actions which we have data showing are the exact traits of actions of men who will physically, emotionally, and sexually abuse women.
> 
> Ask yourself this: Would I want my daughter dating a guy who behaved this way?
> 
> ...




The problem is you've made these assumptions based on essentially the same sort of stuff people made assumptions about D&D, back in the 70s.  You've taken small things out of context and blown it up to be a big conclusion about the entire theme.  Ask yourself if a game about killing things and taking stuff off their corpses so you can get rich is a fair characterization of D&D and if you could spin that to being a negative stereotype for young men.  That's about the equivalent to what I think you're doing.

Read the books first.  Don't go in LOOKING for the conclusion you've already drawn, just read them like you would read any old fantasy novel.  I bet you do not come away with the conclusion you've already drawn, IF you can try and eliminate your bias going in.


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## Mark (Dec 19, 2009)

crazy_monkey1956 said:


> I agree with hexgrid in that the villainization of the Twilight series is very much like the demonization of D&D in the 80s (. . .)





You believe that there is a religious right movement to suppress the spread of Twilight popularity rather than simply some concern by parents to be sure to educate their youngsters regarding the poor emotional choices and self-esteem issues displayed by the supposed protagonist?  Seems very different to me.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Dec 19, 2009)

Mistwell said:


> Read the books first.  Don't go in LOOKING for the conclusion you've already drawn, just read them like you would read any old fantasy novel.  I bet you do not come away with the conclusion you've already drawn, IF you can try and eliminate your bias going in.



Actually, I went in with very little bias, evidenced by the entire joke-y first post I made here.  After that, the internet hoopla about this seemed hyperbolic, so I talked to two women I know who had tried to read the books.  Neither were able to finish them, specifically because both of them were reminded by the books of their past abusive boyfriends, and it made them uncomfortable.

Perhaps I chose a biased population to sample.  It happens.  But I'll take the word of two people I trust over internet vitriol on either side, thanks.


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Dec 19, 2009)

I would still follow Mistwell's advice and read the books for your self and form your own opinion.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Dec 20, 2009)

If the stack of books I _want_ to read ever shrinks to the point that books I've been warned not to read by friends actually make it into the stack, I'll take it under advisement.


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## Mark Chance (Dec 21, 2009)

crazy_monkey1956 said:


> I would still follow Mistwell's advice and read the books for your self and form your own opinion.




I wouldn't. There are too many good books out there to be wasting precious time on drek like the Twilight series.


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## hexgrid (Dec 21, 2009)

Mark said:


> You believe that there is a religious right movement to suppress the spread of Twilight popularity rather than simply some concern by parents to be sure to educate their youngsters regarding the poor emotional choices and self-esteem issues displayed by the supposed protagonist?  Seems very different to me.




"Very much like" does not mean "identical."

Of course the two situations are very different in some ways. I think they're similar in that the concern is unwarranted.


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## Mark (Dec 21, 2009)

hexgrid said:


> "Very much like" does not mean "identical."





Glad no one used the word "identical" despite the implication by your quotation marks.




hexgrid said:


> Of course the two situations are very different in some ways. I think they're similar in that the concern is unwarranted.





I think the concern of institutional entities in the 80s over D&D was unwarranted while the concern for any parent over what their children (as minors) are reading is obligatory.  In what significant ways do you feel they are similar?


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Dec 21, 2009)

The similarities primarily exist in that the material is being villainized, so to speak, by those unwilling to actually experience it for themselves (whether playing D&D or reading Twilight).  Both sources are or were being blamed for causing problems or issues that existed long prior to the source material itself.

Just as D&D does not cause people to go on psychotic rampages, Twilight does not cause people to get in to abusive relationships.

On the topic of parental guidance, it applies equally to D&D.  Just as I won't let my kids read the Twilight books until they are about 16 or so, I didn't let them start playing D&D until they were 10, and then only with me DMing so I could control the content that entered the game.


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## Mark (Dec 21, 2009)

crazy_monkey1956 said:


> The similarities primarily exist in that the material is being villainized, so to speak, by those unwilling to actually experience it for themselves (whether playing D&D or reading Twilight).





The objections I am hearing and reading to Twilight are from people who are actually familiar with the content.  It happens to be preceisely why they object to it since if they were not familiar, if they didn't know about the problematic nature of the protagonist, (her poor choices, low self-esteem issues, etc.) they would have a hard time objecting to those specific aspects.


Are you finding that there are people who are objecting to the series on other grounds that are not actually part of the series and thus showing those who object as not being familiar with the material?


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Dec 21, 2009)

The primary objection appears to be the abusive relationship angle.  We have seen in this very thread that that particular argument is being accepted by those unwilling to actually read the book.  Where-as, if one reads the book, one may come away from it with that opinion, or that that opinion is unfounded based on unintended metaphors based on the vampire element of the main male protagonist, or that the book is harmless drivel, or some other opinion.


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## Mark (Dec 22, 2009)

I think that's just shorthand people are using to lump all of the Belle problems together.  She's got a lot of them but the end result seems to be bad relationships and those seem to be getting the focus rather than her choices and low self-esteem issues which are the real concerns to warn young impressionable minds against.


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## hexgrid (Dec 22, 2009)

Mark said:


> I think that's just shorthand people are using to lump all of the Belle problems together.  She's got a lot of them but the end result seems to be bad relationships and those seem to be getting the focus rather than her choices and low self-esteem issues which are the real concerns to warn young impressionable minds against.




In my case, I'm assuming that every thing said about the dysfunctional nature of the relationships in Twilight is true (I have no interest in reading it myself.)

I just don't think that people -including young girls- are so fragile that fictional dysfunctional relationships will cause them harm.


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## Mark (Dec 22, 2009)

hexgrid said:


> In my case, I'm assuming that every thing said about the dysfunctional nature of the relationships in Twilight is true (I have no interest in reading it myself.)
> 
> I just don't think that people -including young girls- are so fragile that fictional dysfunctional relationships will cause them harm.





I guess the idea is that educating young people as to what is harmful when they encounter questionable behavior in their entertainment material is worth trying if it reduces the number of persons who wind up involved in harmful relationships when they mature.  I'm sure there is no cure-all but I suppose the thinking it that just leaving things to chance is less likely to steer a young person toward a happy adulthood.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Dec 23, 2009)

crazy_monkey1956 said:


> The primary objection appears to be the abusive relationship angle.  We have seen in this very thread that that particular argument is being accepted by those unwilling to actually read the book.  Where-as, if one reads the book, one may come away from it with that opinion, or that that opinion is unfounded based on unintended metaphors based on the vampire element of the main male protagonist, or that the book is harmless drivel, or some other opinion.



I think you are severely conflating my reaction to my friends' experiences of this book with the "movement" to talk about this book.  My reaction is very emotional, grounded in personal relationships with people who have been abused in relationships, one of whom was so affected by trying to read the book that she threw it against the wall and left it there for days, unable to make herself pick it up.  As her friend, I became emotionally involved when she shared that story.

That is my prerogative as a human being who is a rational, careful scientist, but also a friend to people who have been through awful things.  In this case, human pain trumps geek pluralism.

But there are a lot of people who simply have legitimate, analytical concerns about the content and are approaching it in a very measured way.

Look around, there are behavioral correlations drawn up by learned men and women in the fields of clinical psychology, gender studies, and half a dozen others.  They are not pulling a witch-hunt.  They are not advocating book burning.  They are saying, (and I paraphrase) "This book showcases characters who would be very worrying in the real world.  We think parents should take an interest and could use it as a teachable moment with their children to talk about the problem of abusive relationships that is unfortunately endemic to our society."

That is not, as the D&D witch-hunt was, blaming the books for abuse.  Actually, some have put it the other way around, that emotionally and physically abusive relationships are so prevalent in our culture that the books are more a product than a cause.  The books are not a problem, per se, and can actually be a help.  Since the single most at-risk population for emotional, sexual, and physical abuse is reading these books like they are the Gospels of Romance, they are probably a good way to start a discussion.  The discussion could conclude that Vampire boy is OK and the girl just needs to grow up a bit.  That conclusion would be just as acceptable to me as "These books are an example of what not to do."  I just think the discussion should take place.

If that discussion took place more often, I wouldn't see so many girls come to campus with no understanding of the warning signs of an abusive guy.  Maybe I could go a semester without having a girl show up to a class desperately trying to cover up bruises.

Obviously, I have a personal stake in this that may be clouding _my_ judgment.  But don't use my quick judgment as a way to dismiss the legitimate concerns of others.  Educate yourself on the issues before throwing out the reasoned conclusions of experts in the field of human relationships and gender issues.


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## Mistwell (Dec 26, 2009)

Canis said:


> Educate yourself on the issues before throwing out the reasoned conclusions




If you honestly have an issue with the books without reading them, and you believe the advice you gave, I suggest your read the friggen books.  In fact, it's such a fast read, you would have been done with the first book already had you foregone reading this thread and writing all those replies.

It's really sound advice to say read the book and then draw a conclusion, rather than listening to others (ANY others) and drawing a conclusion.

There is really no good excuse for not educating yourself and actually reading the first book, if you care about the issue.  There isn't a whole lot to say beyond that.  It's the kind of advice that holds for not just this topic by many others.  To really understand an issue, reading the thing the issue is about is the first place to start.


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## catsclaw227 (Dec 27, 2009)

Mistwell said:


> If you honestly have an issue with the books without reading them, and you believe the advice you gave, I suggest your read the friggen books.  In fact, it's such a fast read, you would have been done with the first book already had you foregone reading this thread and writing all those replies.
> 
> It's really sound advice to say read the book and then draw a conclusion, rather than listening to others (ANY others) and drawing a conclusion.



FQFT, with some XP.

I did read the first 2 books. Wait, check that, I trudged through the first three books. 

*trudge:*  To move with purpose.

You know, I don't have a terribly negative view, but if my daughter acted like Bella, I would be upset with her... check that... disappointed in her.  I asked myself "why would she agree to do that" or "what is it about him that makes her think this is OK" once or twice, but I imagine that's pretty consistent with typical teenage girl decision-making.  

Ladies, please, chime in here.... if I am wrong, I will stand corrected.

And, BTW, teenage boy thinkin' too.   

Who doesn't make bone-headed decisions, almost wholly based upon emotion, when they are that age?  

Girls fall for the "wrong guy" (usually labeled as such by the slightly jealous guy-friend who secretly wants to be her BF -- guys, come one have you ever been one?  I have. Once.)  

Guys say yes to stupid stuff like drugs or doing a prank that gets them in trouble, his friends doing the ol' "come on dude, go for it!" (in some other language or differently phrased, but basically the same thing), or makes an ass out of himself trying to be cool.

Bella has strong emotions for Edward and makes some bad decisions because of it, but she is a teenage girl.  They're not always good, and it shouldn't glorify or paint these as right, but from what I read, the books don't do that.

Whatever... I was neutral going in and neutral coming out.  I won't read the rest of the series, I have a stack of much better books (IMHO) to read instead.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Dec 27, 2009)

Mistwell said:


> If you honestly have an issue with the books without reading them, and you believe the advice you gave, I suggest your read the friggen books.  In fact, it's such a fast read, you would have been done with the first book already had you foregone reading this thread and writing all those replies.
> 
> It's really sound advice to say read the book and then draw a conclusion, rather than listening to others (ANY others) and drawing a conclusion.
> 
> There is really no good excuse for not educating yourself and actually reading the first book, if you care about the issue.  There isn't a whole lot to say beyond that.  It's the kind of advice that holds for not just this topic by many others.  To really understand an issue, reading the thing the issue is about is the first place to start.



I tried to make this clear in the last post and leave off of this, but I'll try again... For me, the issue isn't just about these particular books.

I have several friends who have been abused, one for a very long relationship before she finally came to her senses.  And that's just the ones who will admit to it, which is a small percentage by most estimates.  This is not an issue where I can remain cool, rational, and unaffected.  Sitting idly by and watching the beginnings of what has all the characteristics of an abusive relationship again is not likely to be relaxing for me, even through the lens of a book.  A little too close to real life for me.

Leaving aside the fact that the first Twilight book traumatized a friend by spawning a nasty walk through her own memories (which is enough evidence for me all by itself that there might be a problem there), I also read a few passages quoted in the context of comparisons to domestic abuse literature.  I needed to take a walk to calm down.  Reading the whole book would probably give me an ulcer.  The passages in question read like narration of watching one of my old friends with the guy who used her as a punching bag for 2 years.  Even if we could categorize reading the whole book as a growth experience for me (doubtful), why put my wife through me being that miserable to live with for an indeterminate period?

You seem like a good guy, but I'm going to take the advice of a good RL friend who _also_ has actual RL experience with the issue at hand before the advice of someone on a messageboard, sorry.

I will, however, leave off talking about it.  You are correct insofar as I don't need to be on a soapbox about it.  Mainly because it's upsetting me further just typing about it.


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Dec 28, 2009)

I would humbly submit, then, that your issues and those of your real life friend have little to do with the book itself.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Dec 28, 2009)

You guys just don't quit.  I was trying to bow out.

The book basically gave her a flashback but you think the book has no similarity or relationship to her experience?

Are you being deliberately obtuse?  Or is this standard kneejerk geek defensiveness of all things vaguely geeky, regardless of their merit or lack thereof?


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## Mark Chance (Dec 28, 2009)

Canis said:


> Are you being deliberately obtuse?  Or is this standard kneejerk geek defensiveness of all things vaguely geeky, regardless of their merit or lack thereof?




Quite obviously, your contributions to this thread have been reviewed by the Committee Regarding Acceptable Posts and found wanting. I'm sure once you've actually read the books and changed your opinion to match those of the committee members that all will be well.


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Dec 29, 2009)

Sorry about that.  I couldn't think of an effective way to get across my point.  I'm not trying to be confrontational.  

Let me try that again.  I think, maybe, that Twilight hits the bad mojo button for you (or your friend) in the same way that, say, watching a war movie might for a person with combat related PTSD.  It serves as a trigger for an underlying issue but isn't the root cause of the issue.

Rather like playing RPGs is a bad idea for someone who already has issues seperating fantasy from reality.  It isn't the root of the problem, but it can exacerbate the issue.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Dec 29, 2009)

crazy_monkey1956 said:


> Let me try that again.  I think, maybe, that Twilight hits the bad mojo button for you (or your friend) in the same way that, say, watching a war movie might for a person with combat related PTSD.  It serves as a trigger for an underlying issue but isn't the root cause of the issue.
> 
> Rather like playing RPGs is a bad idea for someone who already has issues seperating fantasy from reality.  It isn't the root of the problem, but it can exacerbate the issue.




I think you nailed it with this post.


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## Jack7 (Jan 2, 2010)

I got the first film (which, thankfully only my wife has read all of the books, so my kids have only seen the films) and I intend to watch it to get an idea for myself of what the thing is like.

Anywho I'm gonna watch it. Pray for me people, for I suspect that to me it'll be a'lot like going to a Miley Cyrus concert, regardless of what I think of the subject matter. And I've already had to do that. The things we do for our kids...


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## shilsen (Jan 3, 2010)

Jack7 said:


> I got the first film (which, thankfully only my wife has read all of the books, so my kids have only seen the films) and I intend to watch it to get an idea for myself of what the thing is like.
> 
> Anywho I'm gonna watch it. Pray for me people, for I suspect that to me it'll be a'lot like going to a Miley Cyrus concert, regardless of what I think of the subject matter. And I've already had to do that. The things we do for our kids...



Actually, the first movie is a brilliant comedy. Yes, I know it's not intended to be, but I don't think it could have been funnier if it had tried to be. And the fact that the really horrible stuff they do is serious and intended to be taken seriously is what makes it even more hilarious. At least to me.


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## LightPhoenix (Jan 3, 2010)

I'm going to preface this post with the fact that I have not read the books.  However, I'm also not going to speak to the content of the books, but rather of the debate surrounding them.

I suspect the furor over the books stems from several different issues that people are having.

I suspect the most dominant cause of rage against Twilight stems from the inherent insecurities that people, and specifically young men, have.  The societal issues in the United States surrounding young women is well documented; the same issues applied to young men less so.  It's my belief that all people suffer from insecurities, especially during their more formative years.  Leaving aside all other issues, we have a story that has captivated many women and provided an outlet for fantasy.  The males are portrayed as, essentially, supermen who are worshiped by women in fiction and in fact.  That has triggered a fair degree of insecurity among men, as they are compared to these supermen and in their minds found lacking.

In fact, this is the male version of one of the biggest problems facing women in the United States* society today.

It is also, of course, a simplification of the issue.  It ignores the issues surrounding the female image of a perfect male.  It ignores the cultural restrictions on the expression of male insecurity.  It ignores the question of physical versus emotional versus mental maturity (ie, older women obsessing over Edward).

A second issue is the sensitivity of the issue of abuse, physical or otherwise.  As has been mentioned above, it is a very big problem here in the US.  I would bet that everyone in the country either has been the victim of such behavior, or knows someone who has.  Whether the books do or do not discuss such a topic I don't know; I suspect that with such mass appeal, they likely do not.  Regardless of the author's intention, that will be something that will be discussed, and should be.  Just because a book may not have been written with inherent meaning** does not make it immune to literary analysis and criticism.  That the series is so popular only makes it more of a target for these analyses; just look at any popular fiction over the decades, from _The Odyssey_ to _Lord of the Rings_ and _Harry Potter._  Given the subject matter of the book - the trials and tribulations of love - an analysis is bound to look at such things as victimization and abuse, especially with scenes in the book as described in this thread***.  

This is amplified by the intensely personal feelings involved in the matter.  Perhaps it was an ex that was abusive.  Perhaps it was a crush that dated a guy that abused her emotionally.  Perhaps it was a friend, or a relative, who was stalked and harassed by someone.  There is no possible way to separate the subjective viewpoint from the debate, nor should it be removed.  However, with something so emotionally charged, there is going to be more heated response.

A third, less subtle issue, seems to me to be the issue of American culture on the self-esteem of young women.  It is no secret that our culture is especially damaging to them, nor that there is a large counter culture**** that believes young women should be secure in who they are, and not the unrealistic superwomen^ of our culture.  Anything that is fashionable amongst young women, whether deliberate or not, is subject to scrutiny with those criteria in mind.  I suspect this fuels a part of the debate as well.

* I won't speak for other cultures, since I do not know them as well.

** I don't know if it has, and this seems to be a large point of contention regarding the analysis of the book, specifically regarding the Mormon undertones present in the work.

*** For better or worse, either way.

**** I deliberately avoid using the term "feminism" here, as I believe it carries several negative connotations due to the actions of some, but not all self-described feminists.  I've found mentioning feminism is a sure-fire way to get some people to roll their eyes and stop listening.  Nonetheless, I suppose it would be the proper term.

^ Much as in the first paragraph.  Also, I got sick of typing asterisks.


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## Jack7 (Jan 4, 2010)

> I suspect the furor over the books stems from several different issues that people are having.




That's an interesting sociological analysis LP, which I'm gonna ruminate on awhile. Hadn't really thought of it in that way.




> Actually, the first movie is a brilliant comedy. Yes, I know it's not intended to be,_ but I don't think it could have been funnier if it had tried to be._ And the fact that the really horrible stuff they do is serious and intended to be taken seriously is what makes it even more hilarious. At least to me.




Well, at least I got something to look forwards to. And a perspective that might help me stomach it.


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## RigaMortus2 (Jan 7, 2010)

I must have poor comprehension skills or just oblivious, but I saw nothing in the first movie that seemed out of the ordinary in terms of relationship abuse.  Even in the second movie, although there were the werewolves and their rage, and house that affected the one werewolf dude's girlfriend (and her face!).

I haven't read the books, don't plan to.  But the movies thus far seem harmless.  They certainly don't promote or glorify abusive relationships.

The books could be a different story, and apparently are for some people.


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