# Whats so special about the Far Realm?



## Vicar In A Tutu

I'm not thinking about the tentacled appearence and Lovecraftian background, but rather its _motivations_. Usually, these are described as being unfathomable. However, very often it just boils down to "destroy the universe". This is very boring, IMHO, and it makes the star-creatures a bit too similar to demons (who are the ultimate "destroy Creation" type of entities in D&D, whereas devils seek to enslave Creation). An alternative would be that the Far Realm seeks to _absorb_ Creation, and "devour" it, turning it into an extension of the Far Realm. (This reminds me of the Tyranids from Warhammer 40K.) BTW, I really like the idea that the stars in the default D&D world are actually malevolent, sentient entities.  

Any other suggestions as to what the Far Realm's motivations are?


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## Dice4Hire

I've never been a fan of Lovecraft, or horror generally, so the Far Realm plays little ot no part of my game. 

However, if it did, I would steer away from the destroy the universe ideal also, as that is primordial and demon territory. Instead, I would have them trying to explore this world with a view to learning and grabbing power. They have their own kind of magi and life, but they want ours too. They have probably destroyed/absorbed many worlds before and learned their secrets and this world is next. 

Their main probaem is that their very presence disrupts the experiment so learning how things work here is very very hard for them.


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## DMH

Vicar In A Tutu said:


> Any other suggestions as to what the Far Realm's motivations are?




I wouldn't apply a motivation to the entire population of a plane or the plane itself. Some want to eat and find humans tastey and some want to explore (too bad their existance is harmful to prime material plane inhabitants) and some just got lost and are looking for a way home.


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## Rechan

Vicar In A Tutu said:


> I'm not thinking about the tentacled appearence and Lovecraftian background, but rather its _motivations_. Usually, these are described as being unfathomable.



I hear 'unfathomable" or "so intelligent mortal minds can't conceptualize it" tossed around in fluff text for everything from Gods to Demons. And usually their plots are pretty easy to Fathom.  



> An alternative would be that the Far Realm seeks to _absorb_ Creation, and "devour" it, turning it into an extension of the Far Realm.



Well yes. I think that's the most common usage, rather than "DOOM". The Far Realms is like the Borg, but instead of just people, it's EVERYTHING. It could be that the Far Realms is to Unnatural what the Abyss is to Evil. Demons are basically just the Elements corrupted by pure evil and chaos. Well, the Far Realms could be the same thing, except that it's just Madness and Chaos. Physics on LSD. 



> Any other suggestions as to what the Far Realm's motivations are?



I've seen a lot of cool ideas on ENworld over the years, lemme sum up. Problem is, if you adopt one, it's a rather world-defining one.

1) As the above, as far as "assimilation", but it's a lot more intentional and insidious. The above makes it seem like the Far Realms is just Insanity Radiation that effects everything. But instead, think of the Far Realms as intelligent and deliberate. The Far Realms can't "breathe our atmosphere", in terms of reality, so it needs enough psychic pollution or enough unreal reality in order to be able to step into the Real World.

This is what aberrations are doing. Perhaps not even consciously aware of it, but an Aberration just doing its thing (and hell, possibly MERELY EXISTING here) is paving the way. If left to their devices, the Far Realms will soon be able to survive/enter and assimilate. 

This would then relate to psionics. Because Psionics could either be "pushing back" the psychic entropy, or psionics could unwittingly be doing the same thing! So a situation where all Psionics could be reality Defilers, or they could be the Purifiers, to put it in Dark Sun terminology. 

2) The Far Realms itself is a plane-sized organism. Its body is too big to comprehend. But it is in fact one entity. [i}Everything[/i] that lives in the Far Realms, therefore, is an organism of that immense body. They are the cells, the antibodies, the digestive bacteria, the enzymes, stomach acids, and parasites. They all have an instinctive role.

So the activity of the Far Realms and Aberrations isn't that there's an over-arching motivation, but it's biological. To the Far Realms, "Order" and the natural (as far as we're concerned) is a cancer. _We_ are the cancer. And where the Far Rralms bleeds over into us, that's actually where It has a tiny wound (so to speak), and our disease is getting into it. Therefore, the influence of the Far Realms isn't offensive, but defensive; its body responds by trying to stop the cancer (or turn it into itself, to neutralize the cancer).

This immense body is, for all intents and purposes, "asleep". It's not conscious because it's not awake. If it were woke up... This also opens the door for the Campaign's epic ending being about slaying the Far Realms. Because such a task would require 30th level PCs.

3) Using the above example of reality as cancer, but let's change the analogy. Imagine the Far Realms as a continent with lots of little countries. Now, imagine that in one country, the ruling authoirty went away. No one replaced him, and the country broke down. No authority, no one in charge, it's just unchecked.

Now, imagine that anarchy is Order. Logic. Physics. Our world, basically is a pocket of Law within a vast sea of Chaos. 

Finally, imagine two things. 1) The Authority (the one that left) is asleep. What happens if it starts to wake up? 2) What if the Far Realms (or other Authorities) become aware of this, and want to ride in and take over? Or even that the original Authority never left, it merely changed its dominion _into_ the world. What if someone wanted to change the Authority's mind?

4) This fits in with #1, but works fine on its own. The Far Realms could see the Real World as an untapped, natural resource. Of course, the resources they are looking for are dreams, thoughts, emotions.


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## Desdichado

Vicar In A Tutu said:


> This is very boring, IMHO, and it makes the star-creatures a bit too similar to demons (who are the ultimate "destroy Creation" type of entities in D&D, whereas devils seek to enslave Creation).



Of course, Lovecraft and Co. _did_ often call their monstrosities demons, and many of the D&D demons were heavily influenced by the Lovecraftian ouevre.  The fact that they resemble each other isn't necessarily bad nor even undesireable.

Personally, I think the D&D cosmology is too fragmented.  The Far Realms is more overtly Lovecraftian than any other place, but it still overlaps with the old Limbo and the Abyss a lot... which in turn overlap with each other and other nasty planes too much as well.


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## Rechan

Hobo said:


> Personally, I think the D&D cosmology is too fragmented.  The Far Realms is more overtly Lovecraftian than any other place, but it still overlaps with the old Limbo and the Abyss a lot... which in turn overlap with each other and other nasty planes too much as well.



D&D is very compartmentalized.

To give an example, think of "unnatural traits". Something weird or aberrant. Now, to the non-D&D player, you coud describe anything weird and say it's from beyond our reality. But if you put it in D&D, it very well might fall into the category of "ooze" or "Undead" or "Fey". So all that's left for Aberrations is tentacles and drippy slime to be recognizable. 

The Far Realms is also just a catch-all. Insanity, reality breaking, the really weird and odd and not-normal. If it doesn't fit into any of the other conceptual  D&D boxes, then it goes in the Far Realms, making the Far Realms the junk drawer of concepts.


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## Dausuul

I've always thought the Far Realm's sole purpose in 4E is to give aberrations a place to be from, which is a pretty poor justification for adding an entire plane to the cosmology - especially one that steps all over the toes of the Abyss and _its_ demented, be-tentacled denizens. My world doesn't have a Far Realm; aberrations are the native races of the Underdark (waging a constant struggle with interlopers from the surface such as drow and duergar).

To me, the Far Realm has a distinct science fiction vibe, so if I were going to use it, I'd tweak the rest of the cosmology to match. Emphasize the "pure mind" aspect of the Astral Sea over the "home of the gods" aspect. Get rid of the Elemental Chaos and the Abyss, and set the Far Realm on the other side of the Astral Sea.

Then play up what remains of Vancian casting and encourage psionic and martial classes, while discouraging or even eliminating primal and divine. Flavor arcane classes as alchemist/scientist types (which might mean getting rid of the sorceror). Maybe throw in some bits of advanced technology, Blackmoor-style.

In this cosmology, alien entities from the Far Realm seek to cross the Astral Sea and colonize, conquer, or otherwise exploit our reality. The really powerful ones plan on changing it to match their own eldritch universe. The PCs must track them down and stop their incursions.

(And I agree with Rechan that "unfathomable motivations" is usually a lot of bunk. Most of the time, when a creature is described as having unfathomable motivations, the motivation is quite straightforward once you get past the Lovecraftian fluff; self-defense, reproduction, or control of scarce resources. If you want a creature whose motivations are truly unfathomable, its goals need to be totally bizarre and random, like killing all blond-haired people who were born in the three days following a solar eclipse... just because. But I suspect most players would find that hard to accept.)


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## Desdichado

Rechan said:


> D&D is very compartmentalized.



Yes, I know, that's what I'm specifically complaining about.  I tend to simplify my cosmologies.  For one thing, most of the time, the details of the cosmology are just estoteric religious doctrine that has little impact on the game itself.  For another, I really like to keep things a bit simpler and easier to use if I actually want to, even in a game that features lots of outsiders.

So for my settings, I tend to have a transitory plane that's not unlike the Plane of Shadow.  This is the "porch"; the gateway that separates all the many hells from the mortal world.  From here, you can enter the various hellish planes, which have a more complicated geography of nesting and linkages.  Sometimes you have to travel through one (or more) to get to another, "deeper" one, while others are linked directly to the "porch."

But in terms of what those hells are, I use any hostile plane layer and any hostile outsider fairly indiscriminantly.  Demons, daemons, devils, oni, slaad, efreet, etc...  Conceptually they're all really the same thing, it's only their mechanical, gamist properties that are really different.


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## TerraDave

Of course, key elements of Lovecraftian horror include:

1) the monsters are _here_, in this universe/dimmension/earth, and this universe is far more monstrous then we understand. (note, this does not preclude other dimmensions). 

2) Its not so much about agenda's as our insignificance. Think of humans like ants, and their is this kid with a magnifying glass...

The best thing to do with the far realm might be to get rid of it...


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## Rechan

TerraDave said:


> Of course, key elements of Lovecraftian horror include:
> 
> 2) Its not so much about agenda's as our insignificance. Think of humans like ants, and their is this kid with a magnifying glass...



Of course, in a fantasy setting, where Gods can come down and poke you in the face, this does lose its edge.

But agreed. The element is also simply "We just Don't KNOW what the hell this is". It takes the people out of their comfort zones. You get a little of that with say, series where mortals are introduced to magic or vampires or something. But Lovecraftian horrors break the foundation of Reality. It's like finding out you're really living in the Matrix. 

The other undercurrent is "Understanding it will break your mind because it's so awful/wrong".


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## Stoat

A year or so ago, somebody analogized the 4E abyss to water circling a drain.  

I tend to think of the Far Realm as the drain.  There's a whole in reality, the Far Realms are on the other side, and all existence is slowly being pulled in.  The Abyss and the demons are corrupted not just by evil, but by the alien madness of the Far Realms.  

But I don't spend a lot of time worrying about the cosmology.  I prefer to keep things as flexible and undefined as I can.


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## Ketjak

Those are beautiful summaries, Rechan. Thank you.


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## Shemeska

WotC's handling of the Far Realms has IMO suffered from severe overexposure over the past several years (I adore Cordell's late 2e work, and find it seriously inspiring, but I swear he hasn't written about anything without tentacles for years now).

That said, the material all too often seems to fail at being any different from the Abyss with slime and tentacles and Lovecraftian pastiche. You need to differentiate from what the Far Realms represents versus what the Abyss represents. The Abyss is the physical manifestation of Malignant Chaos. The Abyss is pointless carnage and destruction for its own sake. The Far Realms is none of that.

Possibly influenced by some of Rip van Wormer's thoughts on the topic here, but I prefer to think of the Far Realms as another multiverse entirely. It has its own physical laws, its own set of organizing principles, and they're largely incomprehensible to our own. It isn't organized by Good and Evil, Law and Chaos, nor Elements and Energies. It organizes along different ideas, some or all of which people from the 'normal' multiverse (normal from our perspective) are entirely incomprehensible.

And the reverse is true.

Entities from the Far Realms view our multiverse as being just as abhorrent and unfathomable as we do theirs. Different, mutually exclusive realities, and when they mix, horrible things happen for all involved.

One of Rip's ideas I liked, was that anytime we find a creature from the Far Realms within our own reality, too often they try to eat and kill not because that's their nature, but because they're in agony by exposure to our (in their view) horrific reality. They're confused, they're blind with physical pain, they're terrified but what they see and what it might be doing to them the longer they stay in our world.

In canon material even there's a touch of that notion, with the entity Bolothamogg of the Far Realms (worshipped by Aboleths) focused on preventing interaction between the Great Wheel and the Far Realms, because of the damage possible to both realities when such interactions occur.

And the Great Wheel and the Far Realms aren't the only mutually exclusive realities to have been mentioned in the material out there. The Keepers (2e and 3e versions anyway) were from another reality/multiverse of their own, trapped within the Great Wheel. And the ether gaps within the Deep Ethereal were strongly hinted at being doorways to similar such distinct realities (all of them being like self-contained bubbles of froth drifting on the surface of the Deep Ethereal). I think I'm responsible for either that froth imagery or perpetuating it in some stuff of mine in Dragon.


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## Dausuul

Shemeska said:


> WotC's handling of the Far Realms has IMO suffered from severe overexposure over the past several years (I adore Cordell's late 2e work, and find it seriously inspiring, but I swear he hasn't written about anything without tentacles for years now).
> 
> That said, the material all too often seems to fail at being any different from the Abyss with slime and tentacles and Lovecraftian pastiche. You need to differentiate from what the Far Realms represents versus what the Abyss represents.




I think the real problem here is that the Far Realm was tacked on after the fact. 3E had the "aberration" creature type, but it wasn't well defined and basically meant "weird stuff with tentacles or excessive numbers of eyes." It did, however, include several iconic D&D monsters such as the mind flayer, beholder, carrion crawler, and aboleth.

So the Far Realm was introduced as a kind of unifying back story for the aberrations, to provide a concrete meaning for the term. Unfortunately, many of those iconic monsters already had a well-established position in the cosmology. Mind flayers especially have an extensively developed culture and play a big role in the politics of the D&D world; they're the chief rivals of the drow for control of the Underdark, as well as being the ancestral nemesis of both the githyanki and the githzerai.

What that meant was that the Far Realm's ability to be unique and distinctive was limited by all this established aberration-lore. Far Realm creatures had to be able to set up comprehensible and functional civilizations in our reality, or mind flayers wouldn't fit. They couldn't be distinguished by their psionic powers, or beholders and carrion crawlers wouldn't fit. The Far Realm had to include some analog to water, or aboleths would make no sense. Et cetera, et cetera. Pretty soon all you could say about the Far Realm to distinguish it from our reality was, "It's really... uh... WEIRD."

This is one of the reasons I prefer to associate aberrations with the Underdark. It's a much better fit IMO, since the one unifying trait of the iconic aberrations is that they were invented back in the day for use in dungeon crawls, which means they're all subterranean. And the hallucinatory, Alice-in-Evil-Wonderland weirdness of the Underdark perfectly matches the nightmarish weirdness of aberrations. Moreover, everything else that lives in the Underdark can be explained as offshoots of surface-dwelling species (e.g., drow) or extraplanar beings (e.g., xorn).


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## Nahat Anoj

Creatures from the Far Realm have unfathomable motivations, but the results of those motivations usually are fathomable.  For example, an aberration's behavior might result in the destruction of things, but wordly creatures can't know exactly why the aberration did it.  Perhaps it's for reasons that can be understood, like revenge or hatred.  Or maybe it's for reasons that make no rational sense, like "red is not potato chip."  Whatever the underlying reasons, the bottom line is that the results - in this case, destruction - are bad, so worldly creatures should oppose this kind of behavior.


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## Nahat Anoj

Dausuul said:


> This is one of the reasons I prefer to associate aberrations with the Underdark. It's a much better fit IMO, since the one unifying trait of the iconic aberrations is that they were invented back in the day for use in dungeon crawls, which means they're all subterranean. And the hallucinatory, Alice-in-Evil-Wonderland weirdness of the Underdark perfectly matches the nightmarish weirdness of aberrations. Moreover, everything else that lives in the Underdark can be explained as offshoots of surface-dwelling species (e.g., drow) or extraplanar beings (e.g., xorn).



I like how, in 4e, the Underdark is an incomplete, flawed construction where the boundaries between planes are weak.  It's a neat explanation for why so many aberrant creatures can be found in the depths below - they managed to find their way there through all the cracks in reality.


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## Desdichado

Shemeska said:


> That said, the material all too often seems to fail at being any different from the Abyss with slime and tentacles and Lovecraftian pastiche. You need to differentiate from what the Far Realms represents versus what the Abyss represents. The Abyss is the physical manifestation of Malignant Chaos. The Abyss is pointless carnage and destruction for its own sake. The Far Realms is none of that.



I disagree; I think further differentiation and compartmentalization and speciation is exacty what _isn't_ needed, since we've got already got too many things that conceptually overlap and are only distinguished by increasingly esoteric minutia.

In addition, if the Abyss in general is already too Far Realms like in concept, the _historical_ Abyss, with the obyriths and whatnot, is even moreso.  (I don't know if 4e still has a place for obyriths or not; I'm not very familiar with the implied cosmology there.  I think the Primordials can kinda stand in for Obyrith Lords pretty well, though, right?)  One way to fold them together is to make the Far Realms aberrations be the spawn of the obyriths.  Or maybe "naturalized" obyriths on the material plane that are no longer outsiders after generations of living away from the Abyss.  That way they can still act pretty much as they do; like all Abyssal spawn, their motivation is destruction, entropy, violence, sadism, etc.  And you can add a plot point that a further motivation unique to "Far Realmsian" aberrations is a desire to preserve their independence from the "Johnny-Come-Lately" tanar'ri and the current crop of demon lords, who'd like nothing better than to repatriate them all.


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## pollochicken

Jonathan Moyer said:


> "red is not potato chip."




Wait, red is _not_ potato chip?  Great, now I'm feeling this unquenchable urge to go on killing spree.


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## Rechan

Another funny thing is that while their motivations may not be fathonable, a human came up with the idea and a human describes the idea, so it's fathomable for the DM.


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## Theo R Cwithin

Hobo said:


> Personally, I think the D&D cosmology is too fragmented.  The Far Realms is more overtly Lovecraftian than any other place, but it still overlaps with the old Limbo and the Abyss a lot... which in turn overlap with each other and other nasty planes too much as well.



I'm in this camp.

While I rather like the Far Realms notionally, I think tacking it onto another cosmology is just too cluttering.  If I choose to use the notion of Far Realms, I'll usually use _only_ the Far Realms (or something like it), and present pretty much everything supernatural as some aspect of it: demons & fey, necromancy & wild magic, aboleths & otyughs, animated plants, chaos beasts & oozes and all manner of other weird stuff might originate there-- types & subtypes notwithstanding.  It just depends on the campaign.

And while I do agree that the "unfathomableness" of the Far Realms is often poorly executed, I think it's possible to do... but not easily in a standard D&D campaign.  For obvious reasons, it fits better in a CoC-styled game, in which PCs are unlikely rush in and hack everything to bits at the first sign of "unfathomableness".


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## Mustrum_Ridcully

Vicar In A Tutu said:


> I'm not thinking about the tentacled appearence and Lovecraftian background, but rather its _motivations_. Usually, these are described as being unfathomable. However, very often it just boils down to "destroy the universe". This is very boring, IMHO, and it makes the star-creatures a bit too similar to demons (who are the ultimate "destroy Creation" type of entities in D&D, whereas devils seek to enslave Creation). An alternative would be that the Far Realm seeks to _absorb_ Creation, and "devour" it, turning it into an extension of the Far Realm. (This reminds me of the Tyranids from Warhammer 40K.) BTW, I really like the idea that the stars in the default D&D world are actually malevolent, sentient entities.
> 
> Any other suggestions as to what the Far Realm's motivations are?



I can't give you an unfathomable motivation.

Well, I could. Illithids want to kelvire the tridoxkuf and enjoy belsom kiffani turkas. Unfortunately, it's even unfathomable to me what this is. I just know it requires them to eat brains and conquer the world. 

A "unifying" theme of the Far Realms might be that there is no unified goal. The different aberrant creatures all act differently. We just "know" that they don't come from here, and that the laws of physics (including magic) don't work like ours. How they can even exist here? No real clue. It seems as if they are capable of adapting to our laws - but some are also capable of adapting our world to their laws.

Some seem to have the goal of getting more inside our world. Some seem to have the goal to get out. Some seem to desire conquest. Some seem to desire destruction. 

Maybe they all actually follow the same goals (but why do they fight each other occassionally?). Maybe they all have different goals. Maybe even those that seem to cooperate? Who knows? Pi is probably 3_i_ in their world, at least on sundays if they fall on a wednesday after yotz.


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## Theo R Cwithin

Rechan said:


> Another funny thing is that while their motivations may not be fathonable, a human came up with the idea and a human describes the idea, so it's fathomable for the DM.



I think a DM can easily come up with a bizarre scene and have no rationale in his head why the bizarre scene is occurring.  (Heck, any run of the mill random encounter generator can do this!)

All you need is a "what", no "why" is required.


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## Kannon

I used the far plane analog as a great big eldritch abomination that spanned universes and really liked eating multiverses with a high level of magical (or life) energy. Abberations were either the mad fever dreams of the universe eating monstrosity or things it deliberately created to destabilize other universes, I left it vague as to how exactly they came into being.

Either way, it worked. Fun universe hopping campaign. (From the typical D&D universe, to Dark Sun by way of getting knocked off-course into Ebberon)


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## Ahnehnois

The value of the Far Realm is that it is far. Which is to say, it doesn't interact with the Material Plane or have any close relationship with humans or other mortal beings. The creatures there have no identifiable connection with the other creatures and ideas with D&D. Conversely, demons have an interest in corrupting the Material Plane, fighting angels, fighting devils, etc. Your character (or a player) can pick up a book and read the histories of demon lords or demon races and understand them. There's very little information on the Far Realm, as it should be.

The point of using the Far Realm and what makes it Lovecraftian is that it establishes that the universe does not revolve around human interests. In the Great Wheel, outer planes exist based to human morals; adding the Far Realm is a statement that human morality doesn't define the universe.

You might not use it all the time, but intellectually, the idea of the Far Realm is a very good thing.


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## Dannyalcatraz

> Well, I could. Illithids want to kelvire the tridoxkuf and enjoy belsom kiffani turkas. Unfortunately, it's even unfathomable to me what this is. I just know it requires them to eat brains and conquer the world.




Belsom kiffani turkas taste great and accelerate surprisingly well!





As for the Far Realms, I see them not only as Lovecraftian, but also Moorcockian.  The demons & princes of Chaos may have forms they adopt for interacting with mortals, but in the rare occasion MM describes Chaos, it has a similarly mind-bending quality as HPL's creatures from beyond.

The main difference is that the royalty of Chaos actively engages with mortals to achieve their goals, whereas the HPL aliens don't really care about us one way or another.


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## Hussar

DannyA, I can get behind that.

I'd look at it like this.  Demons are the other side in a war for creation.  They want to actively destroy creation and return the Primordials back to power.  Spin back the dial to when everything was just big C Chaos.  Everything they do should be directed at that specific goal.

Far Realms creatures are more like parasites, or, as was mentioned, a sort of reality cancer.  They don't really have the goal of Destroy Everything the same way that a parasite has no real goal of killing its host.  However, just like a parasite or cancer, destroying everything around them is generally the end result.

The more intelligent Far Realms beasties actually recognize that their presence is inimical to reality, but, likely, don't care.  They want to turn their new home into a more comfortable place for them.  They get to spread out, colonize, take over and become top dog in a new place, just like a parasite invading a new host.  When the host dies, the parasite doesn't (usually), it just moves on to a new host.

Just like the Far Realms critter moves on to a new area once it exhausts the current one.  It's not so much malevolent as malignant.  The goal isn't "Take over the world" or "Destroy everything and eat their souls", it's "Make this place just like home".

Sort of combining the Borg (or Alien) concept with the cancer or parasite model.

Actually, thinking about it, Alien makes a really good analogy in my mind.  The Aliens invade a new space, begin breeding, change the climate of the planet to match what they want and so on.  They aren't out to destroy, necessarily, but, the processes they follow will inevitably destroy the present ecosystem.


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## WayneLigon

Vicar In A Tutu said:


> An alternative would be that the Far Realm seeks to _absorb_ Creation, and "devour" it, turning it into an extension of the Far Realm. (This reminds me of the Tyranids from Warhammer 40K.) BTW, I really like the idea that the stars in the default D&D world are actually malevolent, sentient entities.




I like the idea of it being more like a poison. The play 'The King in Yellow' acts as a psychological poison on it's victims, and the mere presence of the Far Realms could do the same. Gradually changing, leeching vitality, building up the Realms at the same time, etc.


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## Scott DeWar

Ok, it is now time for me to hit the sack and i saw this thread. unfortunately I won't be able to sleep until i post this. If it is incoherrent, i appologize afrehand and will fix it later.

Which brings me to content. If this has been mentioned already, i am sorry to wasted your reading time.

What if psionics is the 'magic of the far realm' where magic is what is the 'proper bending of reality' si supposed to bed. What if the dream realm is  the far realm- a quasi eatherial realm that is like wht is, but slightly different, and can only reach people throught dreams , typically. What if the far realm of the old ones is an area that is the crossing of the dreams of those who are and the dreans of the old ones, and that the scienceo of the psi is the effect of mental touching between the old ones and those who are and the 'those who are' that have the skills of psi ared those who have survived the touchinng?

Hope this was coherent, cause it really is quite a bunch of vague ramblings, it seems.


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## On Puget Sound

One way to play up the weirdness of aberrations is in their tactics.  Most monsters react somewhat predictably to stimuli.  They approach food, treasure or easy prey, and react to a hard hit with either fear or ferocity.  But maybe aberrations don't do that, or at least not always.  

One creature might always attack the character that did the most damage to it last round, because it is a white corpuscle in the body of the Far Realm and that's its job. Another creature might use area effects indiscriminately, incidentally hitting its allies, because it's contemptuous of any ally that would be so weak or stupid as to get hit.  One might always move at least 3 squares between attacks, because if you don't the grumions will bite your knees, everyone knows that!  (And an invisible grumion might bite the knees of anyone who doesn't move at least 3 squares every round, because it loves tasty knees but it's too slow to catch fast-moving targets).  

Marking might have different effects (use this with caution; constantly nerfing defenders is bad, m'kay?) - some far realm creatures react differently than others to perceived threats.  One might respect the first to mark it, and pursue only that character for the rest of the combat, because it has been challenged and must answer.  If it kills that character, it might leave, feeling it's done with the fight -  anything that didn't mark it is not a true enemy.  Another might not notice the mark at all.  Creatures might choose targets based on height, race, gender, charisma, metal content, or who is carrying the light source.

If the tactical decision tree you've chosen for your aberrations is likely to make it easier to fight, add a few more monsters.  Ideally, characters should be able to gain some advantage from figuring out the creatures' motivations... sometimes.  "The gray ones seem to fear trees, and the purple ones really hate halflings; they ignored everyone else to attack Frito.  I have a plan..."


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## Dannyalcatraz

> One way to play up the weirdness of aberrations is in their tactics. Most monsters react somewhat predictably to stimuli. They approach food, treasure or easy prey, and react to a hard hit with either fear or ferocity. But maybe aberrations don't do that, or at least not always.




Anyone else ever see _From Beyond_?

At first, the only "aberration" attacks occur when humans pierce the veil into their dimension, and then only when certain other things happen, like when humans react to their presence.  Eventually, though, more powerful sentient beings begin to take notice, and they begin to seep into our reality.  They pick targets a little more intelligently.

This could work well in a game...

Other, very powerful aberrations might attack anything in their path, but because we are "beneath their notice", might not deviate from that path unless an attack does it great harm...


----------



## Hussar

> Marking might have different effects (use this with caution; constantly nerfing defenders is bad, m'kay?) - some far realm creatures react differently than others to perceived threats. One might respect the first to mark it, and pursue only that character for the rest of the combat, because it has been challenged and must answer. If it kills that character, it might leave, feeling it's done with the fight - anything that didn't mark it is not a true enemy. Another might not notice the mark at all. Creatures might choose targets based on height, race, gender, charisma, metal content, or who is carrying the light source.




Ooo, I like this one.  A spice best used sparingly, but, still really, really cool.

And, different marks might affect the creatures differently too.  A Starlock's curse should have a different reaction from a Paladin's challenge.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

> And, different marks might affect the creatures differently too. A Starlock's curse should have a different reaction from a Paladin's challenge.




Not that I want D&D to continue down the 4Ed path, but if it does, I think that THAT is a capital idea!

Each class' mark _should_ have at least some kind of minor but measurable mechanical effect the round it is laid down.  Flavor and mechanics working in harmony to amplify and reinforce each other.

Although in order to keep the game from bogging down, it would only happen the first time the mark is delivered in a given encounter...and never to the same foe twice.  (IOW, if Baron Von Badenstein escapes to fight another day, the next time you encounter him, he will be unaffected by the "rider" effects of your party's marks.)


----------



## I'm A Banana

> Whats so special about the Far Realm?




IT'S WHERE BABIES COME FROM​





(apologies to Davd Lynch)​


----------



## Hussar

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Not that I want D&D to continue down the 4Ed path, but if it does, I think that THAT is a capital idea!
> 
> Each class' mark _should_ have at least some kind of minor but measurable mechanical effect the round it is laid down.  Flavor and mechanics working in harmony to amplify and reinforce each other.
> 
> Although in order to keep the game from bogging down, it would only happen the first time the mark is delivered in a given encounter...and never to the same foe twice.  (IOW, if Baron Von Badenstein escapes to fight another day, the next time you encounter him, he will be unaffected by the "rider" effects of your party's marks.)




Well, to be fair, you don't really need rider effects to make each type of marking have the baddy react differently.  For example, a warlocks curse doesn't actually force the target to do anything, but, it grants the warlock extra bennies when the victim dies.  OTOH, a paladin's mark actually hurts you if you don't attack the paladin, so, that's going to have a pretty serious effect on the target's behaviour.

I was more thinking that the marks could have something of an unpredictable effect on Far Realms beasties, in keeping with the nature of the baddy.  

I'm not sure if I'd want to apply it to all encounters.  Bit too much work.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

> Well, to be fair, you don't really need rider effects to make each type of marking have the baddy react differently.




Currently playing a Starlock...my mark doesn't affect the target except by making it hurt.  Some- not all- other classes' marks actually change target behavior.  Hussar, your idea opens the door to ALL marks having an immediate- if temporary- effect on target behavior.

I think that's a good thing.


----------



## garrowolf

The way I do horror type things like Cthulhu Mythos and Far Realms is that they are very destructive to their own environment that they tend to use up resources so they need to move on. Once they get to a new place they need to convert the environment to something more chaos based because our reality as it normally is is painful to them. They start adding anchors and stuff and changing the world around them until they feel comfortable and then they use up those resources. 

One other thing I do is have a set of demons that used to work for them that are refugees that are fleeing from their old masters. Unfortunately they can only go in places that have some connection to chaos as well. So they end up on the front lines running from realm to realm just ahead of the main force of demons with only months to a year in each place.


----------



## Leatherhead

Nope, I don't have any motivations for them. In fact, I prefer it that way. 

The appeal of Lovecraftian far realm beings is in no small part due to the fact that they haven't been popularly humanized, unlike nearly every other malevolent entity in fiction. You know; Vampires, werecreatures, fey, devils and even demons have been given "motivations" and "tragic backstories" which has caused them to largely became less and less monsters, and more and more super powered humans. About the only other monster that still remains monstrous are zombies, and those are just mindless eating machines.

Every degree of separation is imperative to maintain the distance between humanity and monstrosity. Simply going with "You can't understand their motivations" may seem a cheap way out, but any explanation would deaden the unnaturalness and alien feel of them.


----------



## knightofround

Personally I like to play up the "absorbtion" aspect of the far realm. Its inhabitants are collectors; be it of flesh, of magics, of emotions, of faiths, of memories, of sensations, of technology, of diseases, of souls, of virgin blonde princesses, of square-shaped-rocks...the list can go on depending upon how alien you want it to be.

That abberant isnt trying to eat you. Hes mearly trying to speak with you via his digestive organs.


----------



## Hungry Like The Wolf

I haven't read the thread so this might have come up already...

I tend to think of the far realm as something that feeds off of life to survive. Some mindflayers might be totally reliant on thralls as they their hedonistic lifestyle has erased all independence from their culture. Some might need minds, creativity or emotions to feed off of etc

It seems to me most far realm powers need one planet or another's life to sustain their own. They don't really destroy life like demons but more suck it dry and move on.


----------



## Ultimatecalibur

I think two ideas have gotten crossed over the years.

Far Realms - These are places with completely different rules for physics, chemistry and geometry. The "normal" rules are different here. Some examples of what you can do to get the feel of this:

Movement works differently - In a 4e game use 3.X distance measurements (horizontal movement 1 square and diagonal movement is 1.5 squares), in 3.X use 4e's (1 square is 1 square). You can do other things as well, such as having horizontal movement count as 1.5 squares and diagonal movement count as 1, or every 3rd square counts double.
Ranges work differently - They could follow the same rules as movement or use a different set.
Perspective works differently - A creatures effective size category and reach could be determined by how far apart 2 creatures are or based on the perspective of a 3rd party.
Area of Effects work differently - Use different rules for deciding with is in the AoE. Bursts use 3.X rules in 4e and 4e rules in 3rd. Cones(3.X) are Blasts(4e) and Blasts(4e) are Cones(3.X). Lines(3.X) shift left or right 45 degrees every X number of squares and effectively become circles. 
Use creatures that don't follow the normal movement or positioning "rules" - The Displacer Beast is a perfect example of a "Far Realms" creature; it may look like its in one place but it is actually somewhere else. Blink dogs are another good creature for this if you have their "blinking" be a funky way of moving, possibly like how a knight does in chess.

Aberrations - Aberrations are biology gone wild and/or different. They are animals that grow, develop and act like plants. They are insects with endoskeletons. Mindflayers are humanoids with a parasite that turns their heads in to a squid. Aboleths are highly evolved fish with tentacles instead of fins. When you describe an aberration you so get quizzical looks that ask, "How did that thing even evolve?"


----------



## Hussar

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Currently playing a Starlock...my mark doesn't affect the target except by making it hurt.  Some- not all- other classes' marks actually change target behavior.  Hussar, your idea opens the door to ALL marks having an immediate- if temporary- effect on target behavior.
> 
> I think that's a good thing.




I can see where you're going with this.  I wouldn't want it to get too out of hand, because marking isn't supposed to be a power per se, more of an addendum.  

Maybe Starlock curses could give bonuses to things like intimidate.  Or, maybe you could make an Intimidate check against a cursed target as a minor action.  Success=target cowers.  Probably have to wait until the baddy is bloodied first, or it would be too powerful, but, I could see the cursed guy getting really scared after being bloodied and give the Starlock a better chance of just ending the fight with an intimidate check.


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## Dannyalcatraz

> That abberant isnt trying to eat you. Hes mearly trying to speak with you via his digestive organs.



Almost: that abberant isnt trying to eat you. He's mearly trying to speak with you via his preferred communication organs...too bad they happen to be harmful to you.


----------



## amerigoV

An idea from Mass Effect - their motivation is very fathomable - every 50K years or so they come here and HARVEST everything. In ME, the critters are intelligent machines and that is how they proprogate - they let the technology level of the galaxy grow to a certain level and then harvest it to create more of the creatures (and these are huge, battle cruiser sized creatures with a distinct lovecraftian look). They ensure the cycle by planting certain technologies that allow races to jump ahead to the proper level (sorta like fertilizer).

So you can place the timeline near one of these harvests. Individual aberrations have specific functions in the harvest. Mindflayers are likely the generals/coordinators on the ground. Perhaps discoveries in magic and psionics are really developments planted by the Far Realm to enhance the creatures brains to their maximum tastiness.

Plus it explains why you cannot sling a dead cat without hitting a ruin in most fantasy worlds - there have been a number of harvests leaving the world in ruin.


----------



## NoWayJose

Ultimatecalibur said:


> Far Realms - These are places with completely different rules for physics, chemistry and geometry. The "normal" rules are different here. Some examples of what you can do to get the feel of this:



I was thinking along the same lines.

If the Far Realms is truly an aberration of physics, then let's walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

Use completely different game rules every time the Far Realms intersects with the D&D game.

And randomly change the rules each time, just to screw with the players' heads.


----------



## amerigoV

NoWayJose said:


> I was thinking along the same lines.
> 
> If the Far Realms is truly an aberration of physics, then let's walk the walk, not just talk the talk.
> 
> Use completely different game rules every time the Far Realms intersects with the D&D game.
> 
> And randomly change the rules each time, just to screw with the players' heads.





Great idea! And perhaps this is the true origin of F.A.T.A.L.


----------



## Essenti

"Aboleths, Illithids, and other aberrations are not true denizens of the Far Realms... 

This is yet more faulty thinking perpetrated by those of us safely situated on this side of the veil. So many of us easily and incorrectly assume the squirming wriggling mass of flesh screaming in yonder smoking quivering heap was once a dweller from the depths of the Far Realm--yet even that thing could never survive on the other side. 

This sadly twisted aberration *poke* is made of the stuff of our world.

Warped by the influence of the Far Realms? For certain! Actual entities birthed in the otherness? Indeed not!

These sad perversions of life are merely scars in the fabric or our reality, tears in the veil, hastily re-stitched by nature herself using whatever was on hand, or tentacle, as it were.

These poor creatures react with minds and bodies made of similar muck to our own, though they are not but a fleshy cloak, mask, or glove for whatever might've penetrated the veil. A true denizen of the Far Realm is something else entirely; completely foreign and alien... we can only ever see the tools and machinations of their will."

--Essenti De'Soles, to the students of the Seventh Circle.


----------



## Crazy Jerome

I've got a more plebian take on the Far Realms: They are the underlying explanation for anything you want to do that invokes ones of those B movie treatments of twisted sci/fi, or occasionally strange "horror", mainly from the 60s and 70s. 

This makes unfathomable motivations easy, too.   Remember when you were, say, about six?  And you had that sister/brother/cousin/school acquaintance that had "cooties," because certainly their behavior followed no discernable pattern?  Aboleths are unfathomable and just as nasty as your younger sister when you are that age. 

Of course, this is easier to pull of if you were six in the early 70s. It naturally mixes the two thoughts.


----------



## Scott DeWar

Are you saying that this is where those cooties are form?


----------



## Viking Bastard

I'm particular to cosmologies inspired by oWoD, Planescape, Discworld and Neil Gaiman's works, where the universe is ultimately defined by belief and/or will.

It works as it does because it has been willed to do so. Sometimes by great powers (divine or primordial or whatever) and sometimes, but to a lesser extent, by the beliefs of mortals. Sure, once the universe was the Great Wheel, but something catastrophic shifted reality and now it is the Great Tree and has _always_ been the Great Tree (the shift may be so "new" that not everything has really gelled yet, resulting in minor inconsistencies, perceived by the locals as cosmic quirks).

The Far Realm(s) are other universes. They are universes whose core beliefs are different. Sometimes, they are _kind of_ similar but still alien and foreign (giving us Mind Flayers etc.), but often they are near-incomprehensible to us. When a being from one universe enters another, it gets rewritten according to the rules and concepts of the local universe, but it may not _fit_; the further they are removed from our concept of reality, the more  damaging they are to our universe (and by extension, we to theirs).

You cannot traverse universes without ripping reality. And where there's a rip, there is a bleed -- not only of monsters and critters, but of concepts and ideas.


----------



## Crazy Jerome

Scott DeWar said:


> Are you saying that this is where those cooties are from?




Of course!  Where else would they be from? Just put yourself in a 1972 B-movie, and it makes perfect sense.


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## Dannyalcatraz

Scott DeWar said:


> Are you saying that this where those cooties are form?




But D&Dized: Kuo-ties.


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## Scott DeWar

DA, i would give you an E for effort, but i need to give out more rep points.


----------



## Joshua Randall

I don't know precisely what the Far Realms are, but I've always found the *Orz* from Star Control 2 to be highly inspirational.

Uh, spoilers. For a game that's like 20 years old. *shrug*
[sblock]So, the orz themselves somewhat defy description: are they a race of individual beings, or just different parts of the same being? 

The best way to understand the orz (or not!) is by reading their dialogue... which is delightfully vague, thanks to your translation computer fritzing out whenver you talk to them.

Selected excerpts (source) (emphasis added)...[sblock]







> Orz: Hello extremely! I hope you like to *play*. Some *campers* are not so good for *games*. Is it time for *playing* yet?
> 
> Captain: Who are you? What can you tell us about yourselves?
> 
> O: Who are you? You are not Orz! *We are Orz! Orz are happy *people energy* from the outside.* Inside is good. So much good that Orz will always *germinate*. Can you come together with Orz for *parties*?






> C: I'm afraid I'm still not exactly clear on who you are and where you're from.
> 
> O: You are a *silly* camper*.* I am always Orz. If I was not Orz, then I would not be, but of course I am Orz. We are from the *outside*. Also the Arilou *quick babies* are from *outside*. It is the same, but not. Orz are from *below*, Arilou are from *above*. Orz does not like Arilou. Arilou are too much trouble. We can not have *parties* when Arilou always *jumping in front*.* It makes Orz *frumple* so much. These are *fat* words. Do you want to play this some more?






> C: Uh...Hi there. It's good to see you again...I think.
> 
> O: That is *funny*. *You think you *see* Orz but Orz are not *light reflections*. Maybe you think Orz are *many bubbles* too. It is such a joke. Orz are not *many bubbles* like *campers*. Orz are just Orz. I am Orz. I am one with many *fingers*. My *fingers* reach through into *heavy space* and you *see* *Orz bubbles* but it is really *fingers*.* Maybe you do not even *smell*? That is sad. *Smelling* *pretty colors* is the best *game*.



[/sblock]Pretty cool, right? You can kind of understand the orz, but not really. That's what the Far Realms should be like.

(And to me, it seems like the orz are suggesting that when you "see" them, rather than seeing "light reflections" off of whatever substance the orz are made out of, you are instead... uh... experiencing? simultaneously existing with?... the orz. You don't _see_ an orz; you _co-exist_ with it. Creepy!)[/sblock]


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## Dannyalcatraz

When I read that post, I was reminded of a line from a being Dr. Strange was fighting..."I'm not even _finite!_"

(right before Strange whupped his non-finite ass)

I was also reminded of Xathros (from Bab5) and a lot of the Japanese-English translations I've seen...


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## Locien

I thibk the far realm should be thought of as something extra-cosmic-outside of the heavens, hells and other planes that make up the normal cosmos. It is inherently alien in the strongest sense of the term; it has no proper relation to the normal great wheel or astral sea nor does it even fit the normal cosmic structure of any other reality. It is more of an anti-reality than a true one, even being caustic and damaging to normal realities. The aberrations that come from the far realm emerge from multiple processes; a natural creature could be warped, or a far realm thing could translate or transfer itself(note there's a difference there) into the cosmos. The abyss, hell, elemental chaos or whatever system you use are all part of the universal cosmos that forms that particular universe, but the far real is outside of that, breaking form and meaning into the indecipherable and nonsensical alienness.


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## Dannyalcatraz

Aparently, some spammers are from the Far Realms!




> * xiangxing*
> Swiss psychologist RongShi brought human heart to explore and discover
> 
> called the process of personal growth. However all tangible or
> 
> intangible achievements, they must first by the inner intention and
> 
> organization started. If a person is heart is barren, no clue, natural
> 
> cannot accomplish themselves. Toynbee once said: 'individual inner
> 
> development, via a stranger's action, just caused the growth of human
> 
> society. "That's true.


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## Scott DeWar

as I read that I thought you were giving an example of quasi cathuluhu-esc discussions of the far realms.


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## Dice4Hire

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Aparently, some spammers are from the Far Realms!




That would explain a lot.


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## Locien

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Aparently, some spammers are from the Far Realms!



Now if only the eldrich abominations would eat the people that buy from spammers so that the spammers would stop sending out spam because of there being no one stupid enough to buy from.
...
But if they really do eat people who buy from spammers, that would explain why I've never heard of a person buying anything from spam...


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## Hexmage-EN

D&D4 also features the Living Gate, a portal to the Far Realm connected to the Astral Sea, which is the realm of the gods (creatures from the Far Realm once invaded through it; just imagine the Norse gods having to drive Cthulhu out of Valhalla). Why is a portal to the Far Realm located in the Astral Sea? Why wasn't there a corresponding gate in the Elemental Chaos? Why doesn't the Abyss deepening at the bottom of the Elemental Chaos open a hole to the Far Realm?

My main problem with the Far Realm was that it seemed to overshadow the chaotic beings of D&D. Chaos is supposed to be about unlimited possibilities, yet the Far Realm has entities and concepts that chaotic beings apparently cannot comprehend. The fact that these possibilities are alien and "should not be" limits the possibilities that Chaos has available.

So here's the idea for the Far Realm I've come-up with: 

Though some sorts of beings may have truly originated in the Far Realm, the majority of the aberrants were once inhabitants of a normal reality. The Far Realm is the Outside that surrounds all realities much as the seas surround the continents of the world. Just as the civilizations of our Earth unfortunately use the seas as a dumping ground for waste, the gods and other beings that seek to carve Law out of Chaos may use the Far Realm as a receptacle for the waste resulting from such endeavors.

Whereas Chaos is about possibilities, Law is about order. For their to be order, some possibilities must be denied. The most ancient gods of the Points of Light setting denied many of the possibilities that could have existed in their creation, including Allabar. The Living Gate might have been created as a garbage chute that reached into the emptiness beyond reality, allowing denied possibilities to be disposed of. The gods and other Lawful beings of other realities may have disposed of scrapped possibilities in the same manner.

This idea was inspired by a creature from the Monster Manual 3 for D&D4, Allabar. Basically, it was a living planet created by the gods that grew too dangerous and was exiled from the multiverse to the Far Realm. It now appears among the stars and incites those stars that are conduits to the Far Realm to attack the world.

The primordials and other agents of Chaos throughout the multiverse did not want to limit the possibilities and creative choices available to them. This is why aberrant creatures typically attack the Astral Sea and the world, ignoring the Elemental Chaos. The aberrants have no quarrel with the beings of Chaos because Chaos did not want to eliminate possibilities. The aberrants want revenge on the gods that denied their existence in reality. These creatures aren't all beings of Chaos (though some may be): just as the gods refined the primordial's creation and created the world through the possibilities they allowed to remain in the multiverse, the gods of all multiverses unknowingly created the Far Realm's denizens by discarding the possibilities they rejected for their own realities. The Far Realm and its inhabitants make up an anti-world of denied possibilities.

Of course, not all the aberrants entering the reality of the Points of Light setting may have originated in that reality. They look so alien because they are alien; aliens from other multiverses that were exiled into a dumping ground of other aliens from other multiverses. The Far Realm is a place of madness because it is a place where denied possibilities end up, and some of these aberrants may be as inimical to each other as they are to the world. The aberrants want to escape from each other, so they seek refuge in the worlds.

The types of aberrants that may have once been inhabitants of normal multiverses include creatures such as neogi, illithids, beholders, aboleths, kaorti, and the stars called-upon by Star Pact Warlocks. One background for the illithids mentions them being from the future; though in many worlds they are known as Far Realm invaders, perhaps their former backstory holds true in their original home?

Now, as I said earlier, some of aberrants may truly be Elder Evils that have always existed. They might be creatures with utterly alien mindsets that could never fully enter a bounded reality without either ceasing to exist or causing their would-be destination to pop like a bubble. Some of these creatures might exhibit levels of Evil, Law, Chaos, or even Good that are completely incomprehensible. In fact, they might BE the alignments personified. One Elder Evil of absolute Law may want to destroy all the multiverses and all the inhabitants of the Far Realm, denying any and all possibilities for infinity.


----------



## Krensky

Make all their rolls using non-euclidean dice.


----------



## wingsandsword

For Lovecraftian/Far Realm entities, here is a good way to see how they can be omnicidal and destructive, but be distinctly different from demons and other "destroy everything" creatures.

Demons want to destroy things for Evil's sake, cause mayhem to cause mayhem, corrupt souls, drag everything into the pit with them.  They just want to watch the world burn, to quote The Dark Knight.  They want to see individuals suffer and harvest the souls of the corrupted.

Lovecraftian abominations don't even see what they are doing as wrong, they just don't care.  They are powerful enough to cause massive devastation, but due to differences in perspective in reality they don't understand what they do is "wrong", they just do it.

Look at it this way: 

You find an annoying anthill in your backyard.  You may ignore it as not worth your time or effort, but you find it full of insignificant, unintelligent beings you see as vermin, certainly nothing you can negotiate or deal with.  You ignore it for a long time, but one day you may just decide to deal with the nuisance and decide to destroy it.  You could dump some poison on it, just to end the vermin nuisance. . .or you could pour gasoline on it and burn it all down and end the annoyance.  To the ants, you are a merciless, destructive, genocidal/omnicidal maniac that can't be reasoned with or dealt with, you have vast destructive power that might be able to kill most/all of their entire people.  They hope you'll never come around, they hope it will be generation away, if ever, before you destroy their world.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

> My main problem with the Far Realm was that it seemed to overshadow the chaotic beings of D&D. Chaos is supposed to be about unlimited possibilities, yet the Far Realm has entities and concepts that chaotic beings apparently cannot comprehend. The fact that these possibilities are alien and "should not be" limits the possibilities that Chaos has available.




And



> Whereas Chaos is about possibilities, Law is about order. For their to be order, some possibilities must be denied.




When I look at Chaos & Law in a fantasy setting, my primary inspiration for what that _really_ means comes from the work of Michael Moorcock, and secondarily from HPL.

Most living creatures have a bit of law and a bit of order within them, how much being a sliding scale.  The more chaotic a creature, the more bizarre and unpredictable we'd probably find it to be.  Ultimately, chaos is about change, and those creatures that most fully embody chaos may be completely protean in form...and seemingly unstable in psychology as well.

Demons- whether D&D, Moorcockian or what have you- are about as chaotic as beings get that we as inhabitants of the normal world can truly comprehend in any meaningful sense.  But beings of nearly or truly pure chaos are in some way incomprehensible to us.  Therin lie some of Moorcock's creations, but moreso the HPL-inspired Far Realms critters.

Law in Moorcock's view, OTOH, ultimately is about the triumph of order.  And the ultimate triumph of order is stasis.  As in an unending sameness of being without alteration.

The reason the Far Realms critters seem so...other...to even the demons and other more traditional powers of chaos is that they don't even bother trying to be something we can understand.  They are beyond a need for us to relate to them.

Who knows, perhaps they even have an opposite within the cosmology...but since that would be some kind of unchanging and unchangeable piece of undifferentiated, non-sentient matter, its not exactly worth statting up.


----------



## DragonLancer

Krensky said:


> Make all their rolls using non-euclidean dice.


----------



## Aberzanzorax

I didn't read the whole thread (sorry, I'm tired, and I probably will later).



BUT, here's a twist.


The pcs have to stop some far realm entites from _DOING GOOD_.

They don't know why, they don't want the actions to stop, per se, and are likely actually in line with the actions of the dastardly, face eating, tentacled things from beyond who are mind controlling or soul stealing people to do good.

But, they're not doing good nicely. They're hurting people to help others. WHY THE HELL WOULD THEY TRY TO SAVE ALL THE ORPHANS? WHY ARE THEY ERRADICATING DISEASE?

It's as though they're taking every dastardly or good measure to save everyone in this one specific town for no particular reason. Everyone will live, whether they want to or not (sorry old man dying of a painful disease, you get a cure light wounds every single darn day, whether you want it or not).


The "unfathomable" part is not actually having a reason yourself. In this case, good DMing is utilizing the arts of "poor DMing". Usually you should have npcs have motivations and reasons. In this case, good dming means they have no knowable motivations and reasons....no knowable motivations or reasons (knowable to us mortals like human DMs) means that they have no motivations or reasons. They just act. 

The DM just does interesting stuff to increase horror, which can be to help one pc in a battle while trying to tpk everyone else. 




Another, somewhat debatable hint.... Let the player's conspiracy theories drive what they're actually doing. Either decide, or if you can't decide, flip a coin. Heads the players are right, tails the players are only partly right. Or, just assume that whatever the players figure out (this is sorta cheating, but might be ok depending on the genre and buy in of the players) is always partly right, but also always partly wrong. Unknowable reasons, well...they're unknowable. That's sorta the damn deal.



EDIT: to be a bit more clear. Sometimes it's good to break every rule of gaming. Establish, recognize, and respect those rules on a regular basis. Then, with some very specific circumstances, break them. Break em hard and with some regularity. Every expectation is likely to be wrong. Every assumption is way off. But it doesn't always hurt/screw with the players. Sometimes it is to their benefit. 

I'm not advocating being a rat bastard dm. I'm advocating being an overly kind and also overly harsh, and very confusing dm who hurts the understanding of  players and their character's of the game, the rules, the adventure, the mystery, etc. but doesn't hurt the actual characters that much.

Hell, in a good far realm adventure, the characters might end up broken and insane, and might never ever have taken a point of damage, seen a villain, killed or looted anything, or even really understood what was actually happening....but they should have a solid understanding of what they THOUGHT was happening...and that thing, well, that thing was wrong.


----------



## AngryMojo

Strange aeons ago, Pelor glimpsed far into the sky above his domain, far above creation itself and saw the vast darkness for what it was.  Fearful for what would come, he quickly willed a barrier against the stark nothingness into existence, hoping it would stem the tide.  Far down on the newly created natural world, life continued as normal for centuries.  The barrier set up by the god held, and kept the blackness from creation.

However, cracks were found.  Several races of creatures bearing the unnatural mark of the dark spaces between the stars emerged, and began interfering with the gods creation.  Illithids manipulated the biology and psychology of cultures both above and beneath the ground while aboleths enslaved and mutated mortals.  Beholders gibbered across the land, never speaking coherently enough for the mortals, or even the gods to understand.  The gods fought against these slavers and corrupters, never realizing the aberrations loved their home.  They sought to strenghten it in the only ways they knew, to fully comprehend it and make it able to stand against the endless expanse of the far realm.  The illithids, the beholders, the aboleths have been touched by the far realm, and understand the horrible implications of that unknowable expanse.  When the time has come and the stars are right, the barrier will collapse and the far will come into creation.  A day that even the gods fear, for compared to the endless expanse they are as ants to the highest of divinity.

The far realm does not concern itself with that day.  To them, it has already happened.

That's the appeal behind the far realm.  Lovecraftian horror, from the cosmic aspect at least, isn't about tentacled beasts or dripping ooze, it's about nihilism.  Not only is the constant struggle against the unknowable unwinnable, doom is coming.  When the stars are right, Cthulhu will rise from R'yleh and lay waste to the earth as he awakens/resurrects.  Humanity will be eradicated, and Cthulhu won't even notice.  The fine folks at Chaosium do a better job of explaining it than I, or probably anyone on this board, can.  Read through the Call of Cthulhu rulebook, and you'll at least see what the unknowable can appear to be, and how the term is not a cop-out but a narrative challenge.


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## Hactarcomp

So I actually just registered my account to comment in this thread.  

My view of contact between the Far Realm and the everyday world is that it is similar to the Torque in China Mieville's Perdido Street Station.  One of the characters is showing pictures of torque damage to another- they look at a picture of a think that was once a goat, but had a carapace and even after being dead, the horns in its stomach attacked the biologist dissecting it.  When the team that had taken the pictures returns from the torque damaged area, one of the men has barbed tentacles where his eyes should have been and pieces of the scientist have just started disappearing.  No blood, no mess, not fuss, just a hole through her the next day, a chunk of her arm the day after.

It is mutations gone mad.  The aberrations are not from the Far Realm, as the Far Realm is too alien.  Instead, they are what has survived contact with the Far Realm, the shape that normal, everyday things have been twisted into.  The gibbering beast is the easiest example of this, but I apply it to aboleths as well.  

Mieville also gives a decent view of a alien viewpoint that is just slightly incomprehensible to humans- the Weaver.  It views everything simply in terms of aesthetics.  Beauty is truth is goodness.  Of course, what is beautiful changes depending on your point of view.  Wars could be fought over whether to plant one type or another flower in a garden, while the decision to remove the left pinky finger from every other person in a room could be made in an eyeblink if it improved the aesthetics of the situation.  Beauty is subjective, and what would beauty look like to an Aboleth?

(TVTropes has a page on this: Blue and Orange Morality.  Warning, it is TVTropes, don't go in unless you have time to kill.)

I'm currently running a 4e game and assuming that I can get my players to stick with me until the paragon tier, I plan on throwing them into some Far Realm influenced dungeons.  Non-Euclidean spaces, where the rooms appear normal, but when they walk along the corridors, it takes five 90 degree turns for them to come back to the same room.  A dungeon on a mobius strip (this one I am definitely going to do, with the rooms reversed but filled with new monsters but also the corpses they left behind when they complete their loop).  Gravity changing as they enter a room.  Aberrations don't just have to happen to organic creatures, they can happen to inorganic stuff as well.  A room in which the only non-slick surface is the ice, where the only surface that doesn't suck the PCs slowly in is the rock-solid surface of the pool of water that still ripples with the movement of the fish within it.

I'm not sure how I see psionics, as none of my players currently has a character playing one, but perhaps they could be seen as the ripples coming out of these unexpected reality excursions caused by the Far Realm.

I see the Far Realm as an opportunity to truly mess with the laws of reality within the system.  Stuff that could be achieved through magic, sure, but that would not occur to any normal magic user and even would be considered an odd idea from the insane ones.  Cosmologically, I view it as another universe with natural laws and morality completely alien to ours.


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## Krensky

Hactarcomp said:


> I'm currently running a 4e game and assuming that I can get my players to stick with me until the paragon tier, I plan on throwing them into some Far Realm influenced dungeons.  Non-Euclidean spaces, where the rooms appear normal, but when they walk along the corridors, it takes five 90 degree turns for them to come back to the same room.  A dungeon on a mobius strip (this one I am definitely going to do, with the rooms reversed but filled with new monsters but also the corpses they left behind when they complete their loop).  Gravity changing as they enter a room.  Aberrations don't just have to happen to organic creatures, they can happen to inorganic stuff as well.  A room in which the only non-slick surface is the ice, where the only surface that doesn't suck the PCs slowly in is the rock-solid surface of the pool of water that still ripples with the movement of the fish within it.




Just as a point of order, technically if your campaign world is set on a planet (the spherical kind, anyway) all dungeons are non-euclidean. Euclidean geometry on the surface of a (spherical) planet is just an local approximation of spherical geometry.

Sorry, carry on.


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## Infernal Teddy

Every organism has it's own parasite. We have viruses. Bacteria. Fleas. Mosquitos. Every organism has parasites. Thei Multivers, this "Great Wheel" is so vast, so unfathomnable, who are we to say it's not a living organism, with everything inside, even the Gods, being nothing more than cells or minor organs. Maybe with the Lady of Pain, the Dark Lords and even the Tarrasque as vital parts of it's "immune system".

If this is the case...

...the the Far realm is a parasite that lives off Multiverses. And we have become the most recent host. And the worst is yet to come - as time goes by we have seen more and more "creatures" of the Far realm invading, more... "toxins" that the parasite injets into the host so as to be able to continue to feed. The immune system of the Multiverse is fighting back, but it is loosing the war. The Tarrasque was once maybe not alone, or slept less. The Dark Powers are hiding in Raveloft. The Lady of Pain holds Sigil as a last hold-out.

The multiverse is dying, the Far realm is killing it. There is no hope.


- Found amonst the writings of the Sage Menethenos of Alexandria, just after his suicide and mere hours before the burning of the Great Library


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## Zhaleskra

Having been a Planescape fan, and using some of the Planescape ideas, I have an idea of why the Far Realm exists at all. When a mortal dies and becomes a petitioner, his or her memories of that mortal life are erased by the gods in order to preserve that soul's sanity. Now let's add reincarnation, and remembering past lives: after so many cycles, the gods can't fix you anymore, and are starting to worry about their own sanity. They can't exactly destroy you since there's no nowhere for you to go to. So they dump you in the far realm to be alone with your own insanity. And then your insanity becomes reality.


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## Hexmage-EN

I'd rather the Far Realm be a place that seems chaotic, but isn't really, to keep it conceptually separate from other planes. In fact, I don't understand where the idea that the Far Realm is a place of chaos came from; a place of madness that can't be comprehended by mortal man, sure, but a region of pure chaos?

Another way to make the Far Realm conceptually distinct is to liken its effects to glitches seen in video games. Demons destroy the land, and slaadi transform it according to their whims. When the Far Realm intrudes, though, the metaphysical planar fabric of the world just sort of shatters without being destroyed (and there might be some sort of strange order to the transformed landscape).


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## Hexmage-EN




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## Dannyalcatraz

What is _THAT?_

(I mean, besides the obvious- a stretchy character in a video game.)

Specifics, son!  *SPILL!*


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## Goblyn

Dannyalcatraz said:


> What is _THAT?_
> 
> (I mean, besides the obvious- a stretchy character in a video game.)
> 
> Specifics, son!  *SPILL!*




What do you mean? What game? That's Fallout 3. Maybe New Vegas. PC is holding a rail gun.
Stretchy character looks caught in a graphics glitch ... The question is so vague. I can't tell what answer would be useful to you. 0.o


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## Leatherhead

Goblyn said:


> What do you mean? What game? That's Fallout 3. Maybe New Vegas. PC is holding a rail gun.
> Stretchy character looks caught in a graphics glitch ... The question is so vague. I can't tell what answer would be useful to you. 0.o




That's Fallout 3, in Rivet City labs. The character is holding a portable nuke launcher (the Fat Man) and looking at Anna Holt who is distorted due to a glitch.


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## Dannyalcatraz

Goblyn said:


> What do you mean? What game? That's Fallout 3. Maybe New Vegas. PC is holding a rail gun.
> Stretchy character looks caught in a graphics glitch ... The question is so vague. I can't tell what answer would be useful to you. 0.o






Leatherhead said:


> That's Fallout 3, in Rivet City labs. The character is holding a portable nuke launcher (the Fat Man) and looking at Anna Holt who is distorted due to a glitch.




My question is answered.  Thanks!


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## Hexmage-EN

I posted that picture to illustrate how the effects of glitches in video games could be likened to the effects of the Far Realm. That human character wasn't stretched into a freakish form by random chance: instead, the rules governing the character's form produced a result freakish to the observer but still in keeping with the coding of the game.

If the Far Realm is a dimension that appears chaotic, I would rather that chaos be unintended to distance it from planes whose denizens actively pursue chaotic goals. Instead of actively trying to spread chaos, the creatures of the Far Realm try to establish their own form of order. Unfortunately, each type of aberrant has its own definition of order that the others find repellant. 

If the factions of the mortal world compete for control over territory and resources, the factions of the Far Realm compete for control over the laws of reality. Whereas mortal kingdoms can eventually succeed in shaping order from chaos, the eternal war over the nature of reality seen in the Far Realm causes attempts to create order ending in greater chaos.

To summarize, I'd paint the Far Realm as a bizarre twin to the world. The aberrants do not entertain such lofty goals as trying to further the cause of law or chaos for their own sakes. Instead, they just struggle to survive in the same way that mortals do. The primary difference is that mortals try to survive day to day in a reality governed by set physical laws, whereas the aberrants must eke a living in a dimension where the nature of reality can suddenly be altered by their enemies in ways antithetical to their own nature. Invading more stable planes, such as the mortal world, is an attractive option for aberrants as those dimensions are easier to reshape into new forms hospitable for them.

On a separate tangent, am I the only one who thinks that tentacles have become exceedingly cliched for Lovecraftian monsters? Sure, tentacles look kind of weird, but not _that_ weird.


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## Aloïsius

> Also, agreed on the overuse of tentacles. I long for a new appendage type.




Well, there is not much choice...
legs, arms, wings, fins, tail... And tentacles. Everything not articulated is a kind of tentacle anyway, including tongues or some part of the male anatomy. 
An appendage is a thing used by a body to interact with its surroundings. In order to have the "strange alien" factor, you need somewhat to not use vertebrates animals parts ("you see a Zwglyuks ! The horrific creatures has a few hundred kitty pawns waving in your direction" or "the Ghald'hurgul fly toward you at great speed, thanks to it twelve eagle wings"). So, you have arthropods legs (think Quori in Eberron) and the whole world of tentacles, from the classic squid tentacles to the delicate jellyfish filaments and the amoeba pseudopod.


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## Hexmage-EN

Aloïsius said:


> Well, there is not much choice...
> In order to have the "strange alien" factor, you need somewhat to not use vertebrates animals parts ("you see a Zwglyuks ! The horrific creatures has a few hundred kitty pawns waving in your direction" or "the Ghald'hurgul fly toward you at great speed, thanks to it twelve eagle wings").




Call me unorthodox, but I think a fleshy "tree" with human arms for branches hopping around on huge, hairless horse's leg is freakier sounding than a tentacle monster.


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## Ketjak

Hexmage-EN said:


> Call me unorthodox, but I think a fleshy "tree" with human arms for branches hopping around on huge, hairless horse's leg is freakier sounding than a tentacle monster.




Reminds me of my Shadowfell: trees with arms and hands instead of branches and leaves, grass of short, thin fingers (children implied).

Perhaps I am reflecting a Shadowfell corrupted by the Far Realm?


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## Theo R Cwithin

Hexmage-EN said:


> Call me unorthodox, but I think a fleshy  "tree" with human arms for branches hopping around on huge, hairless  horse's leg is freakier sounding than a tentacle monster.



This reminds me of this freaky picture, based on perfectly normal appendages:
[sblock]






_ (Artist is Tim Hawkinson)
_[/sblock]Also, if ayone here reads the webcomic "Goblins", recall *Mr.Fingers* (last panel)!   I guess the moral is that perfectly ordinary appendages can be pretty creepy and weird.  It's all in how you assemble them.  
So, @Aloïsius, I stand corrected.


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## Hussar

Anyone looking for some Far Realmsy sort of stuff should check out China Mieville's Unlundon.  Some really weird stuff there that's loads of fun.


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## Hexmage-EN

Theo R Cwithin said:


> This reminds me of this freaky picture, based on perfectly normal appendages:
> [sblock]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _ (Artist is Tim Hawkinson)
> _[/sblock]




That's what I'm talking about! Bugs and squids can be creepy; human-like beings whose bodies have been contorted into bugs and squids are creepier (just imagine a "human squid": a huge head with ten extremely long arms terminating in human hands surrounding a jawless mouth).

The Far Realm, moreso than the Abyss and Limbo/The Elemental Chaos, seems primarily biological in nature. I've got some ideas centered around that feature of the Far Realm that I'll post next time I get a chance.


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## Hactarcomp

Beyond tentacles, there's a phrase that stuck in my mind that I'm still trying to work out a good representation for "the many angled ones."  It shows up in some Cthulhu mythos writing and I kind of think of it as beings that shift unsettlingly as they move, with bits of the flickering in and out of perception as they move either towards or away from the PCs.  Or best of all, both at the same time.

Also, I don't think you should discount the unsettling appearance of multiple mouths in random places or clusters of normal (not compound) eyes.  I went on google for an example and found this as a decent example.  I don't think tentacles are a necessity, although they help.  I have in my campaign notes for the players brushes against the far realm "the many angled ones, v. lovecraftian, but go easy on the tentacles and protoplasm."  I'm still working on how to go easy on the protoplasm and tentacles, but I think random sharp angles that are there one moment and gone the next that the players can cut themselves on accidentally, perhaps branching spikes that grow and disappear instead of moving normally.  

Anyway, while I fully acknowledge that tentacles are and will ever be a part of the far realm (after all, how do you have mind flayers without them), I don't think they need to be the end all, be all.  Some weird crystalline structures like the spike idea above might not be uncalled for also.


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## Crazy Jerome

Given some of the discussions we have around here, maybe if the goal is "unfathomable," we should simply invite select others to our games to play the Far Realms creatures.

DM:  "Today we have Crazy Jerome from ENWorld to play the mind flayers."
Players:  "Hi, CJ."
CJ:  "Glibagagy adat kjinrb, on frepot."
Players:  ?  ?!    
DM:  "CJ and I don't understand each other.  I figured you guys woudn't either.  Next week, I'm playing an aboleth in his campaign."


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## Saeviomagy

Hussar said:


> Anyone looking for some Far Realmsy sort of stuff should check out China Mieville's Unlundon.  Some really weird stuff there that's loads of fun.




Better off reading about the Cacotopic Stain from the Bas-Lag stuff. Handlingers (detached living hands), 

Actually by far the BEST far-realmsian thing in that series is the weaver, from perdido st station. A creature which, on any given day, may demand a tribute of scissors, blades open, lying on their side. Or left ears (forcibly). Or chess sets without their queens. It might kill you because it makes you prettier. It might let you kill it because it seems that would be prettier.


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## Dannyalcatraz

Ever read Stephen Donaldson's Gap series of novels?  The alien race, The Amnion, are as close to a Far Realmsian species as I've seen in sci-fi, at least in form.  They capture people and alter them at a genetic level in order to communicate with humanity.


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## Hexmage-EN

In further developing a role for the Far Realm, I feel there are two unique features of that dimension that need to be considered.

First, much of it appears to be biological in nature (whether it actually is or not is up for debate, although I prefer to think that the forest of giant hairs should actually be a forest of giant hairs). 

Second, it has a clear connection to psionics, as much of its inhabitants use psionic powers. Furthermore, in 4E, one of the several possible explanations for psionic power is that it originates in the Far Realm.

To address the first point, take the phenomena of mutation into account. Mutations related to exposure to the forces of chaos are manifestations of creative forces that seek to create new entities. Mutations related to exposure to the Far Realm, however, seek to impose another set of physical laws upon the world, transforming one kind of natural creature into a being from another universe. Creatures subjected to this type of mutation usually die, as their bodies become unsuited for continued existence in the universe. 

Perhaps a "star" from the Far Realm falls to the mortal world one night, bathing a town in its glow, before zooming back up into the sky come morning. The light carried with it a bizarre radiation that eventually caused horrific mutations upon the living and inflicted severe, fatal birth defects upon the unborn. However, this light did not wreak random chaos upon the morphic structure; instead, it attempted to selectively alter those who were exposed to it in an effort to transform them into the creatures of a reality that never fully came into existence. The only reason these mutations were fatal was because they are not suited for the physical laws of this reality.

These mutants may have fared slightly better in the Far Realm, but they still would not be safe. The physical laws of that dimension are localized and inconstant. At any given moment a god-like invader from another sector of the Far Realm could appear and rewrite the laws of unreality, making the local inhabitants suddenly unable to exist. Those creatures who somehow avoid death are transformed (take the kaorti for example).

To address the second point I mentioned earlier, take the difference between arcane magic and psionic "magic". Arcane magic functions by manipulating the physical laws of the universe. Psionics, on the other hand, might possibly violate reality. If the wizard is learning how reality works and takes steps to manipulate, the psion may view the world as nothing more than a dream that can be altered as if by a lucid dreamer.

The Far Realm, which is a place beyond known reality, does not have consistent physical laws that the wizard can manipulate; neither does it have gods or divine power. Instead, it has alien beings that manipulate their dimension in the same way that a lucid dreamer manipulates their dreams. The nature of reality is not determined by physical laws or the decree of deities, but by those beings whose will is powerful enough to override the will of others. The Far Realm might thus be a place where there is no distinction between the physical and the phrenic.

So far I've assumed that the Far Realm appears to be composed of biological matter, but what if the nature of the Far Realm actually depends upon the observer? Perhaps the god-like entities of the Far Realm seek to shatter the will of those who dwell in it so that no one can contest their dominion (other entities may dominate creatures, perhaps by causing them to perceive the world in ways that insure they act as required). They might do this by willing the substance of the Far Realm to take the form most terrifying to a viewer. A person terrified of parasites might see a massive worm penetrate their skin and crawl inside him, somehow leaving him visibly unaltered even as he feels the thing completely filling-up his insides. Another person terrified of spiders might see a giant eye open in the "sky" before growing spider legs and clambering towards him. These are not mere illusions; even if each person sees something different, each perception of the Far Realm is equally real, even if they contradict each other. These altered forms of perception might persist even if the characters escape: the character afraid of parasites, for example, may be able to see the parasites in the natural world around him as if they were the size of dogs. 

Gibbering mouthers might be born from creatures who succumb to their greatest fears within the Far Realm. A random farmer might somehow be drawn into this dimension of madness and see nothing but that which incites the greatest terror within him for an infinite distance in all directions. Somehow, perhaps by the will of the entity inflicting this universe of terror upon him, the farmer does not die. Instead, his form and identity begin to dissolve in unreality. His body becomes formless goo, and he loses all memory of his life. The only act of will he is able to express is the formation of new mouths through which he can let loose howls of terror. Finally, and most terribly of all, the creature that was once the farmer forgets what incited this fear in the first place without the terror fading away, for all it now knows is unending, sanity-pulping fear.

Even if a person can somehow survive entering the Far Realm, they should not want to stay. If you really want to impress this horror upon your players, find out in advance what their greatest fears are and, once their PCs enter the Far Realm, describe an entire universe where their most irrational, primal fears are horrific reality. Of course, such an approach could easily backfire and make your players hate you, so you might not want to attempt this (heck, I myself can't help but think momentarily about what kinds of microscopic bacteria are swimming around in the tea I'd drinking right now). If someone DID do this without an incident, though, I imagine it would be fairly satisfying to have your players say "We are NEVER going back there again. EVER."


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## Dannyalcatraz

That last post reminded me of my Dwarven Starlock's background: I was inspired by many sources, one of which was Pallasite.  To me- and thus, to my PC- Pallasite was evidence of a failed incursion of the Far Realm into the Prime Material.  An "unfertilized egg" of Far Realms material that crystallized when it manifested here.

The_ fertilized_ ones created the aberrations, either directly or via contagion.


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## Hexmage-EN

I'm trying to compile all the different powerful beings and "deities" of the Far Realm. Here's what I've got so far; please tell me if I'm missing any:

_Acamar_*
_Allabar_
_Bolothamogg_
_Caiphon*_
_Delban*_
_Draeden_†
_Father Llymic_
_Gibbeth*_
_Great Mother_
_Hadar*_
_Holashner_
_Ihbar*_
_Khirad*_
_Mak Thuum Ngatha_
_Nihal*_
_Pandorym_
_Piscaethces_
_Ragnorra_
_Shothotugg_
_Shothragot_
_Thoon_
_Ulban*_
_Y'chak_
_Zhudun*_

* Stars in the Points of Light setting that might be individual Far Realm entities.
† Species; might not be true Far Realm natives.


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## Stoat

I'd add Tharizdun to the list.  But I'm of the opinion that the shard of evil he cast into the Abyss actually tore a hole between Reality and the Far Realm.


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## Hactarcomp

I took out the star names, Allabar, and Mak Thuum Ngatha, as I recognize those, but where did you get the others from?



Hexmage-EN said:


> _Bolothamogg_
> _Draeden_†
> _Father Llymic_
> _Great Mother_
> _Holashner_
> _Pandorym_
> _Piscaethces_
> _Ragnorra_
> _Shothotugg_
> _Shothragot_
> _Thoon_
> _Y'chak_
> 
> † Species; might not be true Far Realm natives.


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## Hexmage-EN

Hactarcomp said:


> I took out the star names, Allabar, and Mak Thuum Ngatha, as I recognize those, but where did you get the others from?




Bolothamogg, Holashner, Piscaethces, Shothotugg, and Y'Chak were mentioned in 3E's _Lords of Madness_ as "Elder Evils" that the aboleths recognize as deities. 

The Great Mother is mentioned in 4E's _Underdark_ as the force behind the creation of beholders (before 4E, the Great Mother was an entire layer of the Abyss). 

Shothragot is an aspect of Tharizdun that has some sort of connection to the Far Realm (I honestly don't much about it, though).

Thoon is an entity that some illithids revere (its only mention in 4E, that I'm aware of, is in the Thoon Hulk entry of _Monster Manual 3_). 

Father Llymic, Pandorym, and Ragnorra are all detailed in 3E's _Elder Evils_ (Pandorym is the subject of a Forgotten Realms novel that I haven't read, too).

Finally the draeden were strange monsters that were mentioned to predate existence prior to 4E. As far as I know there are no references to them in 4E, and they were not stated to originate from the Far Realm, either (the Far Realm might not have been introduced into D&D yet).


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## Corathon

Draeden are from the old D&D Immortals set - gargantuan creatures, miles across, that roamed outer space and the Planes, and were capable of taking on a deity (or more than one).


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## Hexmage-EN

I found a reference to another possible Far Realms deity-like entity in a Paizo-era issue of Dragon's "Ecology of the Kopru". It's called Prukal, the Dark Globe, and is referred to as one of the mothers of the kopru (the other is Shothotugg; "Kopru has two mommies!").

Until a better title for these beings is coined, I'm referring to the deity-level creatures of the Far Realm as Elder Evils (although only those entities worshiped by the aboleths have so far been officially referred to as Elder Evils).


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## Krensky

Whjatever is wrong with the classic 'Great Old Ones'? It's what Paizo, last I looked, used for entities from beyond time and space.


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## Hussar

Krensky said:


> Whjatever is wrong with the classic 'Great Old Ones'? It's what Paizo, last I looked, used for entities from beyond time and space.




While classic, it is a bit cliche.  And, it makes the Far Realms a Lovecraft pastiche at best and knock-off at worst.  While the Far Realms certainly takes a page from Lovecraft, you don't have to make it quite so "Lovecraftian" as to name it for the Mythos.


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## Krensky

One of the later Journals refers to the Dark Tapestry and the Dominion of the Black, with no real name for the entities that dwell in the spaces between the stars.


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## SkidAce

Hussar said:


> While classic, it is a bit cliche.  And, it makes the Far Realms a Lovecraft pastiche at best and knock-off at worst.  While the Far Realms certainly takes a page from Lovecraft, you don't have to make it quite so "Lovecraftian" as to name it for the Mythos.




Heresy!


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## Rechan

You know, one thing I want to see would be something similar to Invasion of the Body Snatcher. The way the Pod People just take over. And it's a plot of pod people by pod people (and the thing making them). But part of the horror is the assimilation aspect, and the ever-expanding conspiracy.

The same with movies where you have one monster that has spread parasites that it controls (Slither, The Faculty, etc).


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## Tenebrae Aeterna

Well, It's possible that the Far Realms are a product of sentient life within the physical world. The first seed of madness within reality may have given birth to the Far Reams by placing a sort of corruption into the dreamscape. Additional cases of insanity would have then furthered this corruption while it may have, _simultaneously_, started infecting others through night terrors. Eventually, it may have then became so prominent that it's power permitted true manifestation...thus the Far Reams was born.

The unfathomable aspect associated to the Far Realms and its inhabitants can then easily be explained by the fact that it's completely composed of the coalesced madness from countless different races. This would then mean that it's in a state of constant fluctuation dependent upon which species makes up the majority of the insane. With this in mind, we can look towards the demons of the Abyss as the main contributors to the Far Realms existence...immortal beings who are, _in a sense_, very insane by our terminology. This explains why the majority of the Far Realms inhabitants could be considered malevolent and why those who invade have such a similar methodology to the demons of the Abyss themselves. The vast intelligence of the higher beings within the Far Reams is explained because they are formed from the very minds of intelligent beings...countless intelligent beings.

Throw that all together and you have an existence that's explainable, but impossible to understand because it's constantly changing and composed of an unfathomable amount of different mental variations mashed together and tethered only by madness. Think of the Far Realms as the collective consciousness of every insane sentient being in existence...and every entity spawned by it a product of that maelstrom of thought.

To understand them, not only do you have to understand the psyche of every sentient being within existence...but you have to understand every variation of madness that can arise from these vastly different psyches and every variation that can arise from every potential combination of these various psyches...thus making it impossible.

Granted, someone may have said similar previously.


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