# What have i missed about Greenbound Summoning?



## Voodoo

The feat Greenbound Summoning in Lost Empires of Fareun seems utterly broken and far too good to me, is there a restriction or limitation that i've missed?

The feat applies the greenbound template to any animal you summon with any Summon Natures Ally spell.

The greenbound template:-
Type becomes plant (so no crits, mind affecting, or polymorphing..)
NA improves by 6
Gains a slam attack
(Sp) at will - entangle, pass without trace, speak with plants. 1/day - wall of thorns
DR 10/magic and slashing
Fast healing 3
+4 grapple bonus
Resistance to electricity and cold 10
Tremorsense 60'
Str +6, Dex +2, Con +4, Cha+4
+16 to hide and move silently in forested areas  
(CR +2, LA+8)

The feat is on page 8, the Greenbound template on page 173-175


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## two

*all i can say it wow*



			
				Voodoo said:
			
		

> The feat Greenbound Summoning in Lost Empires of Fareun seems utterly broken and far too good to me, is there a restriction or limitation that i've missed?
> 
> The feat applies the greenbound template to any animal you summon with any Summon Natures Ally spell.
> 
> The greenbound template:-
> Type becomes plant (so no crits, mind affecting, or polymorphing..)
> NA improves by 6
> Gains a slam attack
> (Sp) at will - entangle, pass without trace, speak with plants. 1/day - wall of thorns
> DR 10/magic and slashing
> Fast healing 3
> +4 grapple bonus
> Resistance to electricity and cold 10
> Tremorsense 60'
> Str +6, Dex +2, Con +4, Cha+4
> +16 to hide and move silently in forested areas
> (CR +2, LA+8)
> 
> The feat is on page 8, the Greenbound template on page 173-175




Wow.

That's pretty crazy.  You could summon a level 1 nature's ally (at level 1), and have it cast a Wall of Thorns?  That's pretty much going to end any low-level combat.  Done.

Plus all that other stuff? Crazy talk.

How about summoning 1d4+1 low-level nature's allies by 5 or 6 and having all of them do the wall of thorns thing?

Plus all the other stuff?  

Crazy talk man, crazy.

You have to be able to speak with the summoned plants, of course-- but that's not too tough.


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## werk

Sorry, I don't have Lost Empires yet.  I'd look for something about movement.  Plants don't generally run around very well.  If there is nothing, that might be a good fix for the feat.


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## griff_goodbeard

Sounds in line with all the other broken crap that has come out of FR.


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## Voodoo

werk said:
			
		

> I'd look for something about movement.  Plants don't generally run around very well.  If there is nothing, that might be a good fix for the feat.




Unfortunatly nope, the example greenbound troll (obviously not being summoned) still has speed 30.


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## two

Voodoo said:
			
		

> Unfortunatly nope, the example greenbound troll (obviously not being summoned) still has speed 30.




Good lord, that's terrifying.  A greenbound troll... yikes.


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## werk

Yeah, I'm with you, can't find a reason it's not broken.


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## Ridley's Cohort

I would have to see the feat and read its prereqs carefully.

Keep in mind that SNA critters do not linger around long, and, depending how you read the rules, can be foiled by a cheap little Wand of Protection from Evil (with a few exceptions).  In a highly magical world that last bit may not be so minor a thing.

This certainly looks more potent than Augment Summoning (which is generally considered very good for Druids as PHB feats go.)


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## nak9788

The only thing that I could see that would limit this feat is the restictions of the summon spell itself.  Keep in mind it takes a full-round to cast the spell.  Even casting on the defensive, once you make you concentration check, when the next round starts, you are still casting, giving everyone around you the oportunity to take their action that round (or the previous round if you won intiative) to hit you (and therefore require a 2nd concentration check).

Also the spell only lasts 1 rnd/lvl so it doesn't last very long.  Granted whenever you do summon something it would be quite nasty.  If you compare it to the Augment Summoning feat, it is many times better, effectively making the Augment Summoning feat obsolete.  You might want to include the Augment Summoning feat as a prerequisite for it though.


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## Pielorinho

If I recall correctly, once a summoned critter goes away, so do all its spell effects--so the Walls of Thorns don't last for very long.  It still seems quite powerful to me, but at least that's some small comfort!

Daniel


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## Hannibal Barca

In our campaign we try to use rules as written with very few exceptions. This is one of them. We ended up making it a metamagic feat with one level of adjustment. Thus a 2nd level spell is required for a greenbound 1st level summoned creature. 

As a side note I am baffled by what the feat designers were thinking. This is definitely one of the most powerful feats I have seen.


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## nak9788

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> If I recall correctly, once a summoned critter goes away, so do all its spell effects--so the Walls of Thorns don't last for very long. It still seems quite powerful to me, but at least that's some small comfort!
> 
> Daniel





_De minimis non curat Lex Luthor: _let's see if my Latin is up to par.

That means: Lex Luthor does not care in the slightest 
Correct?


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## nak9788

Hannibal Barca said:
			
		

> In our campaign we try to use rules as written with very few exceptions. This is one of them. We ended up making it a metamagic feat with one level of adjustment. Thus a 2nd level spell is required for a greenbound 1st level summoned creature.
> 
> As a side note I am baffled by what the feat designers were thinking. This is definitely one of the most powerful feats I have seen.




There are some pretty powerful feats, some perhaps more amazing than this one.  The thing that sets them apart from this is that they usually have some nasty prerequisites for them.  So far I haven't heard any for this one, but I would imagine they are small to none.


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## Pielorinho

nak9788 said:
			
		

> _De minimis non curat Lex Luthor: _let's see if my Latin is up to par.
> 
> That means: Lex Luthor does not care in the slightest
> Correct?




Heh--very close!

There's a Latin expression, _De minimis non curat lex,_ which means, "The law doesn't care about trivialities."  In lay terms, it means, "What, your friend punched your arm when you made a dumb joke and you expect him to be prosecuted for assault?  Getouttamycourtroom!"

Lex Luthor also does not care about trivialities.  He's got his eye on the big picture.  And I bet he likes Latin.

Daniel


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## nak9788

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> Heh--very close!
> 
> There's a Latin expression, _De minimis non curat lex,_ which means, "The law doesn't care about trivialities." In lay terms, it means, "What, your friend punched your arm when you made a dumb joke and you expect him to be prosecuted for assault? Getouttamycourtroom!"
> 
> Lex Luthor also does not care about trivialities. He's got his eye on the big picture. And I bet he likes Latin.
> 
> Daniel




_edit:  political content removed.  Sorry!_


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## Stalker0

this template is crazy broken...just for the spells. The fact I could get 5 mini casters to keep entangling enemies is crazy.


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## Pielorinho

nak9788 said:
			
		

> [political content removed]




See, now I gotta go all moderatory on you: this is verging into the political, and ain't appropriate for these boards. Sorry! 

Others, please let this drop, and go back to talking about this feat. Thanks!

Daniel


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## Fieari

I stopped reading at the word "Faerun".  Yes, it's broken.


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## werk

nak9788 said:
			
		

> [quoted political commentary removed]




WAY OFF TOPIC NOW>>>

whoops (edit)


2nd edit: thank hyp


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## nak9788

My apologies.



			
				Pielorinho said:
			
		

> See, now I gotta go all moderatory on you: this is verging into the political, and ain't appropriate for these boards. Sorry!
> 
> Others, please let this drop, and go back to talking about this feat. Thanks!
> 
> Daniel


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## Pielorinho

nak9788 said:
			
		

> My apologies.



Hey, no harm, no foul.  I went ahead and edited the stuff out of both your post and my response to it.

Back to the greenbond!

Daniel


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## Voodoo

nak9788 said:
			
		

> The thing that sets them apart from this is that they usually have some nasty prerequisites for them.  So far I haven't heard any for this one, but I would imagine they are small to none.




The prerequisite for this feat is the ability to cast any summon natures ally spell. Thats it.


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## two

*If it's true spell effects go away after the summons disappear*

That helps a little.

I mean. 

Kinda.

Still, it makes an extended Summon Nature's Ally at low levels very nice.  

By level 4 you can get a Wall of Thorns that lasts 8 rounds.  Maybe 2 or 3 of them even!

By level 6 you don't really have to extend them anymore.  Most battles will be over in 6 rounds, particularly after the enemy is struggling with walls of thorns left, right, and center.

A greenbound troll hunting a PC party in the forest would be a horrific thing to have to face.  Predator, anyone?  Battle of attrition all the way...  just scary.  You should throw one of those guy up against a high level party sometime, play the troll to the max... see what the party comes up with. Might be fun.  +16 to hide is, well...VERY nice.  So it pass without trace.  So is entangle at will.


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## beaver1024

Why are you guys acting so surprised? This is a druid feat. Everyone knows the clercis and druids are the designers' pet classes.  This is the equivalent of Divine Metamagic but for druids.


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## Voadam

Voodoo said:
			
		

> The feat Greenbound Summoning in Lost Empires of Fareun seems utterly broken and far too good to me, is there a restriction or limitation that i've missed?
> 
> The feat applies the greenbound template to any animal you summon with any Summon Natures Ally spell.
> 
> The greenbound template:-
> Type becomes plant (so no crits, mind affecting, or polymorphing..)
> NA improves by 6
> Gains a slam attack
> (Sp) at will - entangle, pass without trace, speak with plants. 1/day - wall of thorns
> DR 10/magic and slashing
> Fast healing 3
> +4 grapple bonus
> Resistance to electricity and cold 10
> Tremorsense 60'
> Str +6, Dex +2, Con +4, Cha+4
> +16 to hide and move silently in forested areas
> (CR +2, LA+8)
> 
> The feat is on page 8, the Greenbound template on page 173-175




Is there any spell level adjustment for the feat? Is it a metamagic that increases the casting time (which would push it to two rounds of casting)?


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## Ero Gaki

Sigh... more nonsense about things being "broken." That word is very annoying. 

The feat makes sense to me, mainly because it's in the "Lost Empires" of Faerun. Stuff is lost for a reason. It's an ancient form of magic, therefore its going to be powerful. I believe the intended purpose of the feat is to give druids something to quest for. I firmly believe that if, over time, the druid works hard to locate the secrets of the spell, he should get it.


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## Mortarion

Don't forget that the summoned animal becomes a plant wich means that some of the druids spells for example enlarge animal (not sure of the name) will not work.


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## two

Ero Gaki said:
			
		

> Sigh... more nonsense about things being "broken." That word is very annoying.
> 
> The feat makes sense to me, mainly because it's in the "Lost Empires" of Faerun. Stuff is lost for a reason. It's an ancient form of magic, therefore its going to be powerful. I believe the intended purpose of the feat is to give druids something to quest for. I firmly believe that if, over time, the druid works hard to locate the secrets of the spell, he should get it.




Granted, "broken" is annoying.  Just replace it with "powerful enough to make things not fun."  Does that help you at all?

If you balance the feat with a long arduous quest full of sacrifice and etc. then I suppose it might be balanced.  It's little different from a quest to gain a powerful artifact, after all.  That's cool.

I don't think the original poster is in this situation.  The original poster was looking around for a feat to take, came across this one, and thought it looked very powerful.  It is.  Or perhaps the original poster is a GM and is wondering if he/she should allow a player to take it.

Whichever -- WOTC could have done the reasonable thing and added a single line of text which (as you suggested) indicated the power level of the feat, something like:

"This is a very powerful feat and should only be taken with GM guidance and approval" something like that.

To simply list it as a feat a player can take, with no prerequisites (for a druid, at least), is daffy at best.

Believe it or not, some things DO make the game less fun (for everyone) because they are overwhelmingly powerful.  A dedicated Greenbound Summoning druid can, at the cost of a feat, summon creatures many times more powerful than is normal at whatever druid level the druid happens to be at.  This could make encounters trivially easy, annoy the GM, and equally importantly make the other PC's in the party feel like a 3rd wheel.

It's not fun when it's always the Druid, all the time.

To Sum:  if the "intended purpose of the feat is to give druids something to quest for",  they should do the obvious thing and, well, state that.  

Possible scenario, feat taken without quest:

Party:  Oh boy we levelled up!
Rogue:  I'm taking "dodge."
Fighter:  I'm taking "cleave."
Barbarian:  I'm taking weapon focus.
Druid:  I'm taking Greenbound Summoning.

Rest of party:  huh?

GM:  [hold head in hands...] good lord, what is THAT?

[... three combat sessions later]

Rogue:  Hey, your summoned creatures done yet?
Fighter:  Are they STILL stuck in them thorns?
Barbarian:  Want me to hack away at them some?
Druid:  [nonchalant] No, My guys got it covered.  Or I'll blow another 2nd level spell and really wipe the floor with them.

GM:  [holds head in hands]... good lord, how do I make it end?  [plots nerfing of Greenbound Summoning]


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## Ero Gaki

You have some good points, Two. I suppose modifying the feat would be appropiate. Change it to something like "can only be used x amount of times in a day." I am generally against "nerfing," so I try to modify things without utterly screwing them.

My problem with "broken" is that too many DM's these days glance at something, say "oh look, that gives an advantage, it therefore must be broken." Granted, the greenbound summoning feat gives a huge advantage, but that doesn't mean it is broken, it simply means that the DM should use caution with it.

Normally, I wouldn't agree with there being a line saying "this feat should only be used with GM guidance and approval;" that just seems like common sense. But, seeing as many a GM that I've met lacks common sense and the ability to adjust things, it does seem like a good addition.


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## Ridley's Cohort

Ero Gaki said:
			
		

> Normally, I wouldn't agree with there being a line saying "this feat should only be used with GM guidance and approval;" that just seems like common sense. But, seeing as many a GM that I've met lacks common sense and the ability to adjust things, it does seem like a good addition.




*Why am I paying the game designer?*

I do not need to pay good money for a game designer to spew out half-baked interesting ideas.  I can easily do that myself or find those on the web for free on a lunch break.  I am perfectly capable of analyzing the power level a feat and tuning it.  And I am perfectly capable of coming up with cool powerful feat ideas that need tuning during my morning commute.

I am paying the game designer so _I may choose the luxury of being lazy_ when and if I want to.  The game designer should do the hard work, so I can do the fun stuff because I do not have the time to do everything right myself.

If a designer tosses a feat like Greenbound Summoning into a book with bothering to put its power level in context, be it through hard prerequisites or just flavor text, he is doing the easy & fun stuff and leaving the drudgery to me.

A feat that leaves me to do the heavy lifting is "broken".  Broken because I cannot use it as is without doing the real work.  That seems like common sense to me.


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## Voadam

Voodoo said:
			
		

> The feat Greenbound Summoning in Lost Empires of Fareun seems utterly broken and far too good to me, is there a restriction or limitation that i've missed?
> 
> The feat applies the greenbound template to any animal you summon with any Summon Natures Ally spell.
> 
> The greenbound template:-
> Type becomes plant (so no crits, mind affecting, or polymorphing..)
> NA improves by 6
> Gains a slam attack
> (Sp) at will - entangle, pass without trace, speak with plants. 1/day - wall of thorns
> DR 10/magic and slashing
> Fast healing 3
> +4 grapple bonus
> Resistance to electricity and cold 10
> Tremorsense 60'
> Str +6, Dex +2, Con +4, Cha+4
> +16 to hide and move silently in forested areas
> (CR +2, LA+8)
> 
> The feat is on page 8, the Greenbound template on page 173-175




For comparison

AUGMENT SUMMONING [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Spell Focus (conjuration).
Benefit: Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it.


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## Voadam

So is there a missing (EPIC) designation?


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## Ridley's Cohort

I think the telling thing here is:



> (CR +2, LA+8)




That is about right.  It is a metamagic feat that allows you to increase the CR by +2.  In the case of SNA, that means you SNA _n_ spell becomes approximately as good as SNA _n+2_.  Obviously that is not true all the time, frex when you want a Unicorn to heal your party.  But in raw fighting power, yes.  

I salivate at the thought of casting SNA III to bring 2-5 Greenbound Wolves, each which can lay down a Wall of Thorns, even if the WoT only lasts a few rounds.  That is a astounding AoE for a low level spell.

Compare with Augment Summoning.  Two feats to boost the summoned creature by roughly CR +0.5.

I think Voadam is on the right track.  This would make a reasonable Epic feat.  At that level the DR, energy resistances, and even the Wall of Thorns are somewhat minor boosts.  It is a frighteningly powerful feat as is when you are <15th level.


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## two

I think it would be a great epic feat!  Good idea.

Lots of flavor, and you can imagine the party going against an epic Druid with this feat -- slogging through a primordial forest, getting hit by these sorts of summons once in a while -- plus all the other nasty stuff Druids can do.  Perhaps the end of the adventure would take place in the Greenbound dimension -- everything is all planty and all the plants are living (and can speak etc.) and they LOVE their druid pal.  And would not like the party, naturally.  "Naturally".

As a completely over-the-top build, as stated, a human Druid3 could have both augment summoning and Greenbound Summoning.  If the stat bonus on Greenbound isn't listed as enhancement (rather, results from being transformed into a plant) then you have a nifty +10 to strength, +8 to constitution summons -- plus other greenbound benefits.  Silly, I know.


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## Pielorinho

two said:
			
		

> As a completely over-the-top build, as stated, a human Druid3 could have both augment summoning and Greenbound Summoning.




Heh--I'm thinking that the best thing to stack with this feat would be Extend Spell, or maybe even Persistent Spell.

Daniel


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## moritheil

Although . . . at around 3rd level, I don't expect most things to survive long enough for it to make a difference.  



			
				Pielorinho said:
			
		

> Heh--I'm thinking that the best thing to stack with this feat would be Extend Spell, or maybe even Persistent Spell.
> 
> Daniel


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## youspoonybard

Um, I don't think you can Persist a Summon Nature's Ally spell.


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## moritheil

Now I'm curious.  Does this mean that you have to use a higher level SNA spell to summon a Greenbound, perhaps?  That would make it slightly less broken.



			
				Voodoo said:
			
		

> (CR +2, LA+8)
> 
> The feat is on page 8, the Greenbound template on page 173-175


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## Ero Gaki

As an alternative to making the feat epic, which would mean that most groups would never get to take it, why not take a look at the Savage Speices book and divide the benefits of the greenbound template into levels, like a class. As a character gains in level, he slowly gets more benefits out of the feat. That way, the feat could still be used, and game balance wouldn't be disrupted.


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## DM_Matt

Unapproachable east has a couple of similar feats that let you put templates on your summonses.  Rashemi Elemental Summoning (iirc) grants, among other things, Cone of Cold 3/day at caster level = hit dice. The cleric of Wind and Water IMC quested for that one.


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## Mr_GrinReaper

This feat reminds me of our parties former rogue/fighter with manyshot. Gads- he did 88 damage in a round once at 4th level... No fun to play when he was around, and I imagine that its no fun to play with this feat as a PC feat, unless It had augment summoning as a prereq. and stated that it increased the casting time, and diddn't stack with augment summoning. Then I'd viably accept it.


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## Lonely Tylenol

The caster level for those spell-like abilities is equal to the character level of the creature summoned.  Assuming that monster HD count for character level, can a summoned 3 HD animal (or whatever you summon) actually use Wall of Thorns as a spell-like ability, considering that normally the minimum caster level for the spell Wall of Thorns is 9th?

But yeah, this thing seems to have BBEG Druid written all over it, with a side order of "yes, your druid can learn this feat, but only after defeating the enemy druid and learning where he had unearthed this forgotten knowledge, then going there and making an adventure out of learning it yourself."


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## Ridley's Cohort

moritheil said:
			
		

> Now I'm curious.  Does this mean that you have to use a higher level SNA spell to summon a Greenbound, perhaps?  That would make it slightly less broken.




Not as written.  The SNA spell makes no explicit reference to CR.  We just mention CR because it is approximately correct than SNA _n_ summons a CR _n_ critter.  There are obvious variances but it is a decent starting point for discussions of relative power level of summoned creatures.


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## moritheil

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> Not as written. The SNA spell makes no explicit reference to CR. We just mention CR because it is approximately correct than SNA _n_ summons a CR _n_ critter. There are obvious variances but it is a decent starting point for discussions of relative power level of summoned creatures.




I was afraid of that.  Still, that provides handy material for a houserule.  Although the man issue seems to be the wall of thorns at low levels rather than any other aspect of it.


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## green slime

Taking the feat, The monster's should be added to the list of summonable monsters at the appropriate CR level. This then turns the overpowered feat to one that is underpowered, and mostly for favour. (IMNSHO).

To do otherwise is rather strange. As a flavour feat, it is more interesting for DM's to use, for a special villian or organisation.


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## edbonny

*Omission?*

The Greenbound Summoning was written by yours truly as a metamagic feat with the Summon Nature's Ally spell using a spell slot 2 levels higher. That fact appears to have been omitted from the print version.

- Ed Bonny


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## moritheil

edbonny said:
			
		

> The Greenbound Summoning was written by yours truly as a metamagic feat with the Summon Nature's Ally spell using a spell slot 2 levels higher. That fact appears to have been omitted from the print version.
> 
> - Ed Bonny




Aha, a higher level SNA is needed after all.  That was the interpretation I was hoping was correct.  Neat, thanks!


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## Hypersmurf

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> The caster level for those spell-like abilities is equal to the character level of the creature summoned.  Assuming that monster HD count for character level, can a summoned 3 HD animal (or whatever you summon) actually use Wall of Thorns as a spell-like ability, considering that normally the minimum caster level for the spell Wall of Thorns is 9th?




Yes, it can.

From the Monster Manual: 
_For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. *The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name.* If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Cha modifier._

-Hyp.


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