# Kobold as Viable PC Race?



## DarkJester (Mar 8, 2007)

What do you think? Kobold as a player? I love these guys, can it work? -4 str and -2 con hurts, but I've really got the urge to play one.


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## charlesatan (Mar 8, 2007)

Races of the Dragon has some alternate class features which makes Kobolds a bit more viable (i.e. Fighter substitution levels giving it a bonus to Str). Still sub-optimal but by no means unplayable. Also a boost if you're going to play a kobold sorcerer (it gains the dragonblood subtype).


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## Bardsandsages (Mar 8, 2007)

DarkJester said:
			
		

> What do you think? Kobold as a player? I love these guys, can it work? -4 str and -2 con hurts, but I've really got the urge to play one.




Of course kobolds can be PCs.  I am still waiting on one of my friends to get up the guts to let me play a kobold sorcerer with the augment summoning feat!







Surely you have heard of our Koboldnomicon?  Where is Whizbang when I need him?

Oh, the little guy above was done by Herman Lau for the book.


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## Votan (Mar 8, 2007)

DarkJester said:
			
		

> What do you think? Kobold as a player? I love these guys, can it work? -4 str and -2 con hurts, but I've really got the urge to play one.




Small size and a 30 foot base move is a rather cool and unique combination.


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## The Levitator (Mar 8, 2007)

2 of my best friends are running a "kobolds only" campaign and their group is loving it so far.  I believe they are also using Races Of The Dragon for their game.  I was supposed to join their campaign, but I'm already running 2 groups and playing in a Rolemaster group.  Joining a 4th would just convince my wife that I need to be committed!


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## Darklone (Mar 8, 2007)

Kobolds rock. Even without many of the available third party supplements. 

Don't underestimate their combat prowess, the lack of str hurts but they can do fine due to their good AC and mobility.

The Scout class would make an astonishing kobold fighter.


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## Thanee (Mar 8, 2007)

Votan said:
			
		

> ...and unique combination.




Not as unique as you might think...

Bye
Thanee


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## Darklone (Mar 8, 2007)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Not as unique as you might think...



Right. Goblins.


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## Bardsandsages (Mar 8, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> Right. Goblins.




But goblins aren't nearly as loveable.


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## hong (Mar 8, 2007)

Die, Deekin, you damnable DMPC. Die. Die. Die.


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## Deset Gled (Mar 8, 2007)

Kobolds are perfectly balanced as a PC race if you remove the Con penalty, IMO.


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## Innocent Bystander (Mar 8, 2007)

I removed the CON penalty and actually gave them a CHA +2 bonus.  So they've got STR -4, DEX +2, CHA +2.  Hasn't thrown anything out of whack so far.


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## rowport (Mar 8, 2007)

There was a web enhancement on WOTC's site written by one of the authors of Races of the Dragon which has some optional boosts to kobolds to encourage their use as a PC race.  I do not have the link handy, but I am sure it is a quick search!


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## sukael (Mar 8, 2007)

Use the subsitution levels in Races of the Dragon and the Dragonwrought Kobold feat in there and things should work fine.


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## lukelightning (Mar 8, 2007)

As a recovering kobold fanboy I'm going to say: If you want to play a kobold, you play a kobold. Not a modified kobold. A Monster Manual kobold. Sure, they are wimpy, but thems the breaks.  The standard Players' Handbook races are meant to be balanced, but beyond that you gotta take what you're given.


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## szilard (Mar 8, 2007)

rowport said:
			
		

> There was a web enhancement on WOTC's site written by one of the authors of Races of the Dragon which has some optional boosts to kobolds to encourage their use as a PC race.  I do not have the link handy, but I am sure it is a quick search!




I'm playing in a game where one of the players is using those options. Personally, I think they might be a bit too good.

-Stuart


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## Dragon Snack (Mar 8, 2007)

rowport said:
			
		

> There was a web enhancement on WOTC's site written by one of the authors of Races of the Dragon which has some optional boosts to kobolds to encourage their use as a PC race.  I do not have the link handy, but I am sure it is a quick search!



http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a

I would probably allow everything except the auto proficiancy with picks.  But then, I'm a Kobold fanboy...


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## Seeten (Mar 8, 2007)

lukelightning said:
			
		

> As a recovering kobold fanboy I'm going to say: If you want to play a kobold, you play a kobold. Not a modified kobold. A Monster Manual kobold. Sure, they are wimpy, but thems the breaks.  The standard Players' Handbook races are meant to be balanced, but beyond that you gotta take what you're given.




I appreciate you helping me find the light, to stop doing things my way, and do them only your way!


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## ThirdWizard (Mar 8, 2007)

There's a kobold spirit shaman 5 in a game I play in who uses the Races of the Dragon and web enhancement for the little guy, and he does fine.


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## Heckler (Mar 8, 2007)

I played a kobold rogue with the kobold sub levels, draconic feats and Hand of the Winged Master PrC (Races of Dragon and Dragon Magic).  Good times  .


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## Darklone (Mar 8, 2007)

Play a kobold warrior


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## lukelightning (Mar 8, 2007)

Seeten said:
			
		

> I appreciate you helping me find the light, to stop doing things my way, and do them only your way!




You're welcome!  

Ok, I should have been clearer in my post...I don't mean _you_ specifically should play a kobold as written, I just mean the abstract "you" of people.  We've already got kobold stats. Sure, they're not balanced as a PC race; _they weren't meant to be_.  Should kobolds for some mysterious reason have two sets of stats, on for PC kobolds and one for NPCs? Do kobolds suddenly get a stat boost just because of their popularity?


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## Kafkonia (Mar 8, 2007)

lukelightning said:
			
		

> You're welcome!
> 
> Ok, I should have been clearer in my post...I don't mean _you_ specifically should play a kobold as written, I just mean the abstract "you" of people.  We've already got kobold stats. Sure, they're not balanced as a PC race; _they weren't meant to be_.  Should kobolds for some mysterious reason have two sets of stats, on for PC kobolds and one for NPCs? Do kobolds suddenly get a stat boost just because of their popularity?




Personally, I use the same resources for kobold NPCs as I do for PCs (Races of the Dragon, etc.) If I want cannon fodder, I use goblins.


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## Darklone (Mar 8, 2007)

I have at least three kobold supplement books... there are sooo many nice extra feats and other things that help you play kobolds if you think they are too weak.

Others simply give them CHA +2. (Yay, kobold paladins!)


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## szilard (Mar 8, 2007)

Personally, I think that the slight build feature is a little too good.

-Stuart


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## Aust Diamondew (Mar 8, 2007)

Deset Gled said:
			
		

> Kobolds are perfectly balanced as a PC race if you remove the Con penalty, IMO.



 Exactly what my group did.  
Didn't help the fact that most people treat kobolds worse than a three legged dog though.


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## SorvahrSpahr (Mar 8, 2007)

i think i'm starting to get the kobold-loving sickness. what makes them so great?


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## Jack Simth (Mar 8, 2007)

SorvahrSpahr said:
			
		

> i think i'm starting to get the kobold-loving sickness. what makes them so great?



Suppliments, because lots of people root for the little guy (and Kobolds are the little guy, usually).

For example, if you take, say, the XPH (Magic-Psionics Transparency and a few key powers), Dragon Magazine (Bloodlines), Races of the Dragon and the Web Enhancement (for the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage), Complete Arcane (for the Mage of the Arcane Order PrC), the DMG (for the Archmage), and Unearthed Arcana (Desert Kobold and Flaws), and you can really build something insane:

Take a Desert Kobold (racial variant, Unearthed arcana; basically trades the Con penalty for a Wis penalty, loses the mining bonus and the light sensitivity) Sorcerer. Tack on two flaws, and he's got three feats available at 1st. So he takes a metamagic feat, Arcane Preparation (Complete Arcane), and the Draconic Bloodline feat (Dragon Magazine; other bloodline feats are perfectly fine, but the Draconic Bloodline is less likely to make the DM go "huh?" later down the line when you go on the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage to help release your "inner dragon"). At 3rd, this kobold takea Cooperative Metamagic (complete Arcane), somwhere along the line he completes the Draconic Rite of Passage (Races of the Dragon), and for his 6th level he goes into the Mage of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane), takes Draconic Reserve (Races of the Dragon web enhancement) and completes the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (Races of the Dragon Web Enhancement; makes him cast as a Sorcerer one level higher, costs 3 max HP). He sticks with Mage of the Arcane Order to the end, using the bonus feats from the class as he chooses, but taking Spell Focus (something), Spell Focus (Something else) and Skill Focus(Spellcraft) at 9th, 12th, and 15th. He then joins the Archmage's for 16th+ (Dungeon Master's Guide). Of course, he picks up Limited Wish (Player's Handbook) somewhere along the way, so he can duplicate Psychic Reformation (Expanded Psionic Handbook) to change out spells or feats as needed (you have to invoke transparency twice to get Limited Wish to change your spells known out this way, though).

At 19th, you've got a dirty little desert rat that casts as a Sorcerer-20 with nine extra spells known, has the ability to have nearly any PHB Sor/Wiz spell available on a round's notice, has three arbitrary metamagic feats (one of which can be a useable Quicken, thanks to Arcane Preparation), one arbitary feat (18th level), and four Archmage specials, who can change his last six levels worth of feat and spell choices for 300 xp, a 7th level spell slot, and a standard action.  At 20th, you've got Sor-21 caster with 5 Archmage specials.  And no Con penalty.

This can, of course, be optimized even more by replacing a few Mage of the Arcane Order and/or Archmage levels with some other PrC that's fairly easy to qualify for (as in, requires feats/spells/skills he'll already have or can easily afford, such as the Mindbender PrC).

Drips cheese, mind.  Not quite as much as a certain Kobold Egoist.... but it drips cheese.  All WotC, though.


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## SorvahrSpahr (Mar 8, 2007)

we'd have a little guy kicking ass Raistlin Majere style...me like


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## Felon (Mar 8, 2007)

The MM version is not bad at all.

+2 Dex
+1 Natural armor
+1 AC and +1 to hit from small size 
(for those counting, that's +3 AC right there)

Throw in:
No movement penalty from small size
Darkvision
Favored Class: Sorcerer

As-is, with no house rules or extra stuff from Races of the Dragon, let's take a close look. As a class geared towards arcane casting, how does this suck worse than an elf? The elf also loses Con, and casters are all too happy to dump-stat Str. Most of the other elven racial traits don't augment a spellcaster as well as the kobold's size bonuses, natural armor, and darkvision. 

With +2 on Search and Trapmaking, and +4 size mod on Hide checks, you have a decent rogue or scout. 

Help me out here. Why does this little guy need house-ruling to be mechaincally balanced? Do you guys who strip the Con penalty off of kobolds do the same thing for elves?


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## sukael (Mar 9, 2007)

SorvahrSpahr said:
			
		

> i think i'm starting to get the kobold-loving sickness. what makes them so great?




One word: Deekin.


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## Darklone (Mar 9, 2007)

Deekin is just a Meepo clone. Meepo is mucho more fun. Used him several time to scare/annoy/flatter my PCs and other DMs I play with used him too.

Meepo rules!


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## lukelightning (Mar 9, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> The MM version is not bad at all.




One thing you left out was the "light sensitivity" which could be problematic. Of course most people just ignore that, DMs and players alike. Same thing with orcs; I've never had a DM remember that the orcs should get penalties for attacking us in broad daylight.


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## SorvahrSpahr (Mar 9, 2007)

I just read about the little guy, and I already love him lol


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## Klaus (Mar 9, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> The MM version is not bad at all.
> 
> +2 Dex
> +1 Natural armor
> ...




Throw in:
-4 Strength (-2 to melee attacks and to damage, plus reduced carrying capacity, beyond the Small-size reduction)
-2 Con (-1 hp/level)
Light Sensitivity.


All in all, the kobold is cool (I'm dying to play a dragonwrought one) if you keep in mind its strngths and weaknesses. A kobold will never be a damage-dealing monster. The best you can hope is to not have a damage penalty (putting a 14 to Str and get a 10 out of it) and focus either on ranged attacks of Weapon Finesse. Rogues, Scouts, Dread Commandos, Ninja, Highland Stalkers and other classes that add to damage are a boon to them.


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## Felon (Mar 10, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Throw in:
> -4 Strength (-2 to melee attacks and to damage, plus reduced carrying capacity, beyond the Small-size reduction)
> -2 Con (-1 hp/level)
> Light Sensitivity.




Well, I did actually address the Str and Con penalties. Even throwing in the light sensitivity, I don't see a kobold being a worse sorcerer than any race out of the PHB, and he's a decent for "expert" classes as well. 

Heck, given the choice, I'd take darkvision + light sensitivity over either normal vision or low-light vision for a rogue/scout type.


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## MarkB (Mar 10, 2007)

lukelightning said:
			
		

> One thing you left out was the "light sensitivity" which could be problematic. Of course most people just ignore that, DMs and players alike. Same thing with orcs; I've never had a DM remember that the orcs should get penalties for attacking us in broad daylight.



The Dazzled condition is hardly a massive impediment to combat ability, and there's a ridiculously cheap item in _Races of the Dragon_ - sundark goggles - that eliminates the problem at the cost of minor penalties to a couple of skill checks.

I've had great fun playing a kobold dragon shaman in an unfortunately short-lived online campaign. His natural draconic heritage gave him access to some neat feats from _Races of the Dragon_, with breath-weapon channeling feats being particularly nice, and arming him with a longspear gave him the extra reach to participate in melee combat from behind the front line, backing up the melee specialists with his auras.


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## satori01 (Mar 10, 2007)

A -4 Str Penalty on top of a low Str score can easily spell the doom of a character.  In my own campaign a player had a Faen Sprite Magister from AE.  For the sake of brevity the race allowed him to fly, and be tiny sized.  He had a Str of 4.

Now as a spellcaster he figured his Str score would never come into play.... of course when around 8th level the Inn the party was staying at was attacked by Shadows and Shadow Dancers  he was regretting his decision.

Shadows are not that uncommon of a monster, and a Kobold's natural armor is not going to mean jack against them.  Likewise anything that does Str damage, be it poison, spell etc is going to more than likely incapacitate them.

On the melee side it is even worse.  The net is full of stories of small rogues eaten in grapple checks with large monsters...a Kobold Rogue is even at a worse advantage than a Halfling or Gnome.  Light Sensitivity might not be the most egregious penalty..but it is still something you have to spend resources to correct, and there are plenty of spells out there that effect creatures w/ Light Sensitivity.

I would much rather play a Dwarven Rogue to get Darkvision than a Kobold.


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## Machiavelli (Mar 10, 2007)

I'm liking the Venerable Dragonwrought kobold with epic feats.
Smells like bleu, only a bit stronger.


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## Darklone (Mar 10, 2007)

satori01: A similar faen was grappled IMC by a human fighter... with one hand


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## MarkB (Mar 10, 2007)

satori01 said:
			
		

> A -4 Str Penalty on top of a low Str score can easily spell the doom of a character.  In my own campaign a player had a Faen Sprite Magister from AE.  For the sake of brevity the race allowed him to fly, and be tiny sized.  He had a Str of 4.
> 
> Now as a spellcaster he figured his Str score would never come into play.... of course when around 8th level the Inn the party was staying at was attacked by Shadows and Shadow Dancers  he was regretting his decision.
> 
> ...



This is true, but it's only marginally worse for kobolds than for any Small creature. Almost all Small playable races get at least a -2 Strength penalty, so kobolds are only 2 points worse off than them, and their size penalty to Grapple checks is the same.

If you're going to play a Rogue, then Escape Artist becomes a good investment for any Small character, as it can be used to escape from grapples and the check isn't modified by size or strength.


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## Herobizkit (Mar 10, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> Deekin is just a Meepo clone. Meepo is mucho more fun. Used him several time to scare/annoy/flatter my PCs and other DMs I play with used him too.
> 
> Meepo rules!



Meepo FTW!

I ran The Sunless Citadel for a one-time group, and Meepo became a power player.  They cowed him into submission, armed him, and he became the party's move-and-snipe archer.  It was hilarious!

Personally, I prefer the old 2e kobold to the 3e lizard-men kobolds; I prefer Goblins to the 3e kobold overall.


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## pallandrome (Mar 10, 2007)

Heh, I was recently in an All Kobold Campaign. We had a druid, a dragon shaman, a fighter, a barbarian, and a rogue. There was ass, and we kicked it.


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## Darklone (Mar 10, 2007)

Someone here proposed a houserule once that kobold sorcerers get +1 to casterlevel... 

And yeah, kobold barbarians work. They are not as strong as kobold fighters though... The big amount of feats and WS can make a kobold fighter be a strong damage dealer with enough flexibility to keep the enemies from taking advantage of his small size.


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## Klaus (Mar 10, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> Someone here proposed a houserule once that kobold sorcerers get +1 to casterlevel...
> 
> And yeah, kobold barbarians work. They are not as strong as kobold fighters though... The big amount of feats and WS can make a kobold fighter be a strong damage dealer with enough flexibility to keep the enemies from taking advantage of his small size.



 The Fightyer bonus feats free up the regular feats for a kobold to go Dragonwrought -> Dragon Wings -> Improved Dragon Wings. Couple that with archery and the little creeper will be doing great damage. Add in a few Scout levels to take advantage of the fact that you have to move every round while flying. And then go into Stormtalon (RoW).

A Barbarian's d12 HD offsets a kobold's Con penalty, and the rage bonus to Str cancels the penalty. The natural armor and Small size help AC, and the movement increase compounds on the already fast kobold. Damage won't be much, though.


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## Darklone (Mar 10, 2007)

In cruel minutes I love to remember the face our half-orc player (yeah, player, not PC) made when his half-orc PC (his PC) struck a puny little kobold with shortsword and shield for 29 points of damage... I interrupted his Cleave attempt and described how the kobold fighter looked surprised/annoyed about the little gash on his shoulder, then he struck back... slicing the barbarian for good with his TWF shieldbash combo


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## Seeten (Mar 10, 2007)

You have a half-orc player??


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## Darklone (Mar 10, 2007)

Seeten said:
			
		

> You have a half-orc player??



If you'd knew him, you'd understand.

He may look better, but he definitely has Int and Cha penalties 

And the proof that he's a half-orc: He's proud about it.


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## Felon (Mar 11, 2007)

satori01 said:
			
		

> A -4 Str Penalty on top of a low Str score can easily spell the doom of a character.  In my own campaign a player had a Faen Sprite Magister from AE.  For the sake of brevity the race allowed him to fly, and be tiny sized.  He had a Str of 4.



If you dump-stat an ability score, you are vulnerable to ability damage/drain against that ability score. If you have a racial penalty, it gets even worse. Unless you happen to be a warforged, that's tautological.



> I would much rather play a Dwarven Rogue to get Darkvision than a Kobold.



Sure, dwarves are teh borken. Measure any PHB race against them and they will all pretty much come out needing a boost.

Of course, once you bump into a monster that drains Charisma, then your own arguement comes back to haunt you.


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## mgratton (Mar 11, 2007)

btw, with sundark goggles you only incur penalties on spot  and search if you don't have either lowlight or dark vision.  So there's no real penalty for wearing them.  The only problem is if you lose or break them.

mikeg


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## Klaus (Mar 11, 2007)

mgratton said:
			
		

> btw, with sundark goggles you only incur penalties on spot  and search if you don't have either lowlight or dark vision.  So there's no real penalty for wearing them.  The only problem is if you lose or break them.
> 
> mikeg



 Eberron (more specifically, Races of Eberron) has Shaders. You incur a -1 penalty to Spot checks, but the shaders (similar to snow goggles) negate light blindness and light sensitivity.


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## Nazhkandrias (Mar 11, 2007)

You know, everyone's been talking about the Dragonwrought Feats. I'm wondering... can anyone give me the details on the Dragonwrought Feat and the related feats? I'm designing a Kobold Sorcerer, and I was thinking of sticking with Draconic Heritage feats, but I'm hearing a lot about Dragonwrought. Sooo... any details on the feat? Prerequisites, benefits, etc.?


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## Particle_Man (Mar 11, 2007)

If you want to emphasize the "screw with you" aspect of kobolds, a kobold beguiler would be fun.  Illusionist and Rogue abilities!


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## Klaus (Mar 11, 2007)

Dragonwrought: must be kobold, 1st level only
Your type is Dragon. You're immune to paralysis and sleep. You have darkvision 60' and low-light vision. You gain a +2 racial bonus on a skill (as determined by your dragon ancestors). You also don't suffer the ability score reductions from aging (but you still accrue the bonuses) -- this isn't in the feat description, but rather in the age table for kobolds.

Dragon Wings -- dragonblooded, 1st level (a Dragonwrought kobold can take it at 3rd).
You gain the glide ability, like raptorans and dragonborn have.

Improved Dragon Wings -- dragonblooded, dragon wings, 6HD.
You gain an increasing ability to fly, like a raptoran, with a speed of 30 feet (average maneuverability).


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## Nazhkandrias (Mar 11, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Dragonwrought: must be kobold, 1st level only
> Your type is Dragon. You're immune to paralysis and sleep. You have darkvision 60' and low-light vision. You gain a +2 racial bonus on a skill (as determined by your dragon ancestors). You also don't suffer the ability score reductions from aging (but you still accrue the bonuses) -- this isn't in the feat description, but rather in the age table for kobolds.
> 
> Dragon Wings -- dragonblooded, 1st level (a Dragonwrought kobold can take it at 3rd).
> ...



So, would you reccommend Dragonwrought (Red) over Draconic Heritage (Red) for a Kobold Sorcerer? And after that, would you reccommend taking Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings? Also, is the skill determined by dragon ancestors the same as it is for Draconic Heritage (red is Intimidate)? And finally, does that immunity to sleep work like the Elven immunity and require "trance" each night, as opposed to sleep?

I'm just not sure if it's worth burning the first 6 levels worth of feats for this... So, Draconic Heritage or Dragonwrought for a pure Kobold Sorcerer specializing in Fire Evocations?


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## Klaus (Mar 12, 2007)

Go Draconic Heritage. You'll be flying faster by level 6 anyway.


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## Nazhkandrias (Mar 12, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Go Draconic Heritage. You'll be flying faster by level 6 anyway.



That's what I thought. Flight is a little overrated, and if I take Draconic Heritage, it opens up a lot of more useful feats, along with making Intimidate a class skill.


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## Klaus (Mar 12, 2007)

The Dragonwrought -> Dragon Wings -> Improved Dragon Wings is very feat-intensive, so it works better with classes that grant bonus feats, like Fighter or Swashbuckler, plus those that require constant movement (like Scout).

That is, unless WotC answers my question positively. Then you could advance by racial HD. Being a dragon, you'd get d12 HD, 6 skill points per level and all good saves. Couple that with some Draconomicon feats like Awaken Spell Resistance and Awaken Frightful Presence, which are based on racial HD.


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## Seeten (Mar 12, 2007)

My next D&D PC is gonna be a Kobold.


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## mgratton (Mar 12, 2007)

Not having my ROD in front of me, isn't there a variant class in it for sorcerer that gives you draconic heritage as a bonus feat?

mikeg


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## charlesatan (Mar 12, 2007)

mgratton said:
			
		

> Not having my ROD in front of me, isn't there a variant class in it for sorcerer that gives you draconic heritage as a bonus feat?
> 
> mikeg




Yes. You ditch the familiar.


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## Nazhkandrias (Mar 12, 2007)

charlesatan said:
			
		

> Yes. You ditch the familiar.



Wait, you ditch the familiar for just one bonus feat?!? Seems like a bit of a rip-off to me. A familiar can be of MAJOR help, and I think that I'd rather burn a feat than waste +3 to a skill, a useful spy, a minor combatant, and making ALL of my touch spells ranged touch spells.

Speaking of familiars... can anyone tell me if it would be a good idea to take Improved Familiar at level 6 and get a Pseudodragon familiar at level 7? I know I lose a feat, but a Pseudodragon seems like it would be well worth it (telekinesis, good poison, flight, etc.). If I don't do that, I'm probably just going to stick with a Snake familiar.

Also... for a Kobold specializing in Fire Evocations, would anyone recommend devoting myself to the Fire Sphere (enhancement to Fire CLs, reduction to Cold CLs)? My Draconic Heritage feats already make fire a natural choice (Red Draconic Heritage), and plenty of the best Evocation damage-dealers are fire-based.

As for variant classes... I think that the classic sorcerer will work for me, unless there's been a groundbreaking new variant class I'm not aware of... KOBOLDS FTW!!!


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## Felon (Mar 12, 2007)

Nazhkandrias said:
			
		

> Wait, you ditch the familiar for just one bonus feat?!? Seems like a bit of a rip-off to me. A familiar can be of MAJOR help, and I think that I'd rather burn a feat than waste +3 to a skill, a useful spy, a minor combatant, and making ALL of my touch spells ranged touch spells.




A feat won't have single-digit HP, cost you XP when it dies, and make you wait a year to replace it (just so you can go through it getting popped like a zit all over again).

For this reason, many players pass on their familiar altogether.


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## Darklone (Mar 12, 2007)

Nazhkandrias said:
			
		

> Wait, you ditch the familiar for just one bonus feat?!? Seems like a bit of a rip-off to me. A familiar can be of MAJOR help, and I think that I'd rather burn a feat than waste +3 to a skill, a useful spy, a minor combatant, and making ALL of my touch spells ranged touch spells.



It's a bonus feat that allows you to get into a big feat chain faster... a feat chain which feats IIRC get stronger, the more you have.


> Also... for a Kobold specializing in Fire Evocations, would anyone recommend devoting myself to the Fire Sphere (enhancement to Fire CLs, reduction to Cold CLs)? My Draconic Heritage feats already make fire a natural choice (Red Draconic Heritage), and plenty of the best Evocation damage-dealers are fire-based.



Which book is that from? I use something similar right now and don't remember where I had it from.


> As for variant classes... I think that the classic sorcerer will work for me, unless there's been a groundbreaking new variant class I'm not aware of... KOBOLDS FTW!!!



I like kobold warlocks.


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## Nazhkandrias (Mar 12, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> It's a bonus feat that allows you to get into a big feat chain faster... a feat chain which feats IIRC get stronger, the more you have.
> 
> Which book is that from? I use something similar right now and don't remember where I had it from.
> 
> I like kobold warlocks.



I think that the spheres were in Dragon magazine at one point... but I saw it here (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php), under Basic Classes, and under Sorcerers, there's a section called Spheres For Sorcerers.

As for Kobold Warlocks... ehhhh... not for me. Too much Demonic influence, not enough Draconic (important for my character and my DMs campaign). The whole Invocation thing is a little strange to me, I'll stick with a Sorcerer. So, what's this free Draconic Heritage Sorcerer called? Is the only difference subbing the familiar for a free Draconic Heritage?

If you can't think of it or I don't think it's for me (unlikely), then I might take the Draconic Ray Sorcerer (same link as above).


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## Klaus (Mar 12, 2007)

Nazhkandrias said:
			
		

> I think that the spheres were in Dragon magazine at one point... but I saw it here (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php), under Basic Classes, and under Sorcerers, there's a section called Spheres For Sorcerers.
> 
> As for Kobold Warlocks... ehhhh... not for me. Too much Demonic influence, not enough Draconic (important for my character and my DMs campaign). The whole Invocation thing is a little strange to me, I'll stick with a Sorcerer. So, what's this free Draconic Heritage Sorcerer called? Is the only difference subbing the familiar for a free Draconic Heritage?
> 
> If you can't think of it or I don't think it's for me (unlikely), then I might take the Draconic Ray Sorcerer (same link as above).



 The Sorcerer variant is from Races of the Dragon. It's the first Dragonblooded Sorcerer substitution levels (there are two more).

At all substitution levels, you lose Craft and Profession, but gain Use Magic Device as a class skill (for those levels only).

At 1st level, you gain +2 bonus on Knowledge (arcana) checks, plus a free Draconic Heritage feat.

At 4th level, you choose one of your known spells to become a spell-like ability you can use three times per day. Once you choose, you remove that spell from your Spells Known list and you lose a spell slot of the appropriate level. Whenever you gain a new spell level, you can choose a new spell to become a spell-like ability. If you do so, the previous spell returns to your Spells Known list and you get the appropriate spell slot back.

At 4th level your bonus to Knowledge (arcana) increases to +4.

At 7th level, you do not gain the usual new Known Spells for levels 1, 2 and 3. Instead, you gain new spells known based on the alignment of your Draconic Heritage:
Evil: 1st - charm person; 2nd - darkness, resist energy; 3rd - suggestion
Good: 1st - bless; 2nd - fog cloud, resist energy; 3rd - fly

At 7th level, your bonus to Knowledge (arcana) rises to +6.


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## Darklone (Mar 12, 2007)

Ah thanks, Klaus!


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## Nazhkandrias (Mar 12, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> The Sorcerer variant is from Races of the Dragon. It's the first Dragonblooded Sorcerer substitution levels (there are two more).
> 
> At all substitution levels, you lose Craft and Profession, but gain Use Magic Device as a class skill (for those levels only).
> 
> ...



Ah, perfection! You get all of that just for dumping the familiar? It's almost too awesome! Yeah, I'll take a pass on a cat; give me spell-like abilities, new spells, bonuses to skills, and Draconic Heritage anyday! I was never going to use Craft or Profession (seriously, who puts ranks in Profession) anyway. And when you say Use Magic Device is a class skill only for those levels, you mean I can only take it with 1 point for 1 rank at levels 1, 4, and 7, right? And I only lose Craft and Profession at those levels too? Wow, that's weird.

And, since my heritage will be Red Dragon, that gives me Charm Person, Darkness, Resist Energy, AND Suggestion at seventh level, right? Wow, perfect for a Charisma-monkey like me. I'll bet I can put those ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) to good use, huh? Oh, and for the record, since it's a class feature, it goes under Miscellaneous Bonuses (as opposed to ranks), correct? Just want to be sure, so I can max it out from level to level in addition to those bonuses.

So, that's the complete Dragonblooded Sorcerer, I suppose. Sounds great, I'll put it to excellent use! Fire evocations and enchantments, here I come... KOBOLD DRAGONBLOODED SORCERERS FTW!!!


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## QuaziquestGM (Mar 13, 2007)

The reason that kobolds are fun to play is that it is a test of player skill.

Use MM for base adjustments, roll up a character, and ignore all of the newer alterations designed to make them "playable".

Removing the con penelty or adding a cha bonus means that it isn't a kobold anymore. It becomes something that merely looks like a koblod. I mean, do you want to represent kobolds in the olympics as a kobold, or do you want to be on the Chinese swim team?

It would be the same as giving a human darkvision, or making perfrom (dance [ballet]) a dwarven racial skill.


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## Kurotowa (Mar 13, 2007)

Nazhkandrias said:
			
		

> As for Kobold Warlocks... ehhhh... not for me. Too much Demonic influence, not enough Draconic (important for my character and my DMs campaign).




Thus the joy of the Dragonfire Adept (Dragon Magic).  All the fun of a Warlock, but with loads of draconic flavor.  True, the kobold Con penalty is a bit painful for your breath weapon's DC, but who plays a kobold and worries about that sort of thing.


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## Darklone (Mar 13, 2007)

Kurotowa said:
			
		

> Thus the joy of the Dragonfire Adept (Dragon Magic).  All the fun of a Warlock, but with loads of draconic flavor.  True, the kobold Con penalty is a bit painful for your breath weapon's DC, but who plays a kobold and worries about that sort of thing.



Or Dragon shaman plus Draconic Heritage feats. Somewhat redundant but nicer than playing a full score dragon.


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## Klaus (Mar 13, 2007)

Nazhkandrias said:
			
		

> Ah, perfection! You get all of that just for dumping the familiar? It's almost too awesome! Yeah, I'll take a pass on a cat; give me spell-like abilities, new spells, bonuses to skills, and Draconic Heritage anyday! I was never going to use Craft or Profession (seriously, who puts ranks in Profession) anyway. And when you say Use Magic Device is a class skill only for those levels, you mean I can only take it with 1 point for 1 rank at levels 1, 4, and 7, right? And I only lose Craft and Profession at those levels too? Wow, that's weird.
> 
> And, since my heritage will be Red Dragon, that gives me Charm Person, Darkness, Resist Energy, AND Suggestion at seventh level, right? Wow, perfect for a Charisma-monkey like me. I'll bet I can put those ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) to good use, huh? Oh, and for the record, since it's a class feature, it goes under Miscellaneous Bonuses (as opposed to ranks), correct? Just want to be sure, so I can max it out from level to level in addition to those bonuses.
> 
> So, that's the complete Dragonblooded Sorcerer, I suppose. Sounds great, I'll put it to excellent use! Fire evocations and enchantments, here I come... KOBOLD DRAGONBLOODED SORCERERS FTW!!!



 Read my description again. You give up the familiar at 1st level, you have to give up a spell known and a spell slot at 4th level and you don't get to choose your spells known at 7th level. For the familiar alone, you get +2 to Know (arcana) and a Draconic Heritage feat.


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## Nazhkandrias (Mar 13, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Read my description again. You give up the familiar at 1st level, you have to give up a spell known and a spell slot at 4th level and you don't get to choose your spells known at 7th level. For the familiar alone, you get +2 to Know (arcana) and a Draconic Heritage feat.



Yeah, I'm definitely going with Kobold Dragonblooded Sorcerer. One final question - in the description of the Draconic Heritage (Red) feat at Crystalkeep, it lists the class skill for Reds as Intimidate, wheras in RotD, it says Appraise. Which is right?


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