# Elements of Magic errata and FAQ, 5-30-03



## RangerWickett (May 30, 2003)

Please tell me if there's anything missing that you'd like answered, or any answers that you think are unsatisfactory.  The full text is presented here, or if you like you can download the attachment.

*The Elements of Magic Frequently Asked Questions and Errata*
First, we’d like to make clear that this FAQ is only a temporary correction.  We recognize that there are several ways in which the Elements of Magic system could be improved, and we plan to release a sequel some time in early Autumn, and a full update some time this summer.  Some of the information in this document may be obsolete when the full changes are released, but we know many of you have been waiting for a few answers to your questions, and we admit these answers are overdue.  Trust us, though, the wait will be worth it once you see the revised edition.


*Frequently Asked Questions*
Q: Does The Elements of Magic present an entirely new magic system, or is it just optional rules to be tacked on to the existing D&D magic system?

A: The Elements of Magic is intended as a replacement for the standard Core rules magic system.  You take out the existing rules and plug tEoM in.  However, since the system is balanced with the Core rules, you can also use it with the standard magic system.  Several readers are planning on using it for exotic spellcasters to keep their players on their toes.


Q: If it does present an entirely new magic system, does it cover divine as well as arcane spellcasters? I didn't get that impression from the blurb, and I'd like to know that before I consider purchasing it.

A: There is no separation between types of magic in tEoM; all spellcasters use the same magic, whatever its source.  However, it is merely a matter of the game master’s decision to say that some magic might be available only to followers of specific magical traditions.  By the rules, though, there is nothing to stop a pious priest of peace from dabbling in the dark arts of demon summoning and animating the dead, except his own conscience.  Often in literature certain types of magic are forbidden to teach, but they still exist, the perfect temptation.


Q: I'm still puzzling what to do about the cleric.  I want a class like the cleric for my campaign.

A: You can do any of several things for a cleric-style roll in your campaign.  The white mage is intended to have the same roll as a cleric.  They do not have the same weapon and armor abilities, but they have stronger spellcasting abilities than a cleric.  You could also use a multiclass fighter/mage (with the armor casting boon) to simulate a cleric.  Another, perhaps better substitution, would be to use either the red mage (for a positive energy spellcaster) or the grey mage (for a negative energy spellcaster).  Compel Undead replicates most of the effects of turning undead, and the boons are a perfect way to make domain abilities available.

In the follow-up book to Elements of Magic, we will include a class that will more closely model the cleric, so that you can simply play a cleric with EoM spells.


Q: I have at least one misgiving: Magic Points. I think the mage has way too many: 310 at level 20, not counting Intelligence. This is around 17 or 18 9th level spells. I cannot imagine how this will affect an otherwise standard DnD scenario.

A: Every spell point system that has been introduced for D&D has faced this complaint.  Some gamemasters worry that their characters will cast only the highest level evocation spells available, laying waste to everything in sight.  However, a few playtests reveal that canny spellcasters won’t waste their power that quickly, and even if they do, the final result is little different from doling out destruction in smaller packages, except that there tends to be a bit more overkill.


Q: How do bonus magic points work?

A: On Table 1-3, read down the right side until you get to your Intelligence score.  Then read across the top until you get to the highest spell level you can cast.  Cross that row and column, and the box you arrive at has your bonus spell points.  Whenever your Intelligence or spellcasting level changes, you can check the chart again to find your new bonus spell points.  Your bonus spell points are added to the spell points you get for your caster level to get your total final amount of spell points.

Or, if you’re already comfortable with the rate of bonus spells from the core rules, figure out how many bonus spells you’d get for your high Intelligence.  Every 1st level spell equals 1 mp, every 2nd level spell is 3mp, 3rd level equals 5 mp, and so on.


Q: Biomatter evocations require some interpretation. Are they just wood? A big exploding lump of protoplasmic goo might appeal to some, but I find the idea more than a bit gruesome.

A: It can be any sort of inert natural material, such as wood, horn, bone, or even goo, if you wish. So an Evoke Biomatter missile could look like a sharpened horn thrown at the target. An Evoke Area Biomatter sphere could be an explosion of splinters.  You can use whatever suits your character best.  Additionally, the name of Biomatter will be changed to Nature, which doesn’t sound quite so obtuse.


Q: How do you deal with spell casting monsters? Do you just leave them as is or go through the work to convert them to the new system?

A: You can leave monsters as is, since tEoM is meant to balance with the Core spell rules.  After all, the lightning bolt spell is just a specific version of Evoke Lightning 3.

We may include more detailed rules in the follow-up book, but since most magical powers of creatures are usable at will, conversion to the Mage class and the magic point pool is unnecessary.  However, if you want a quick conversion for monsters with effective caster levels (like Dragons), you can convert levels of wizard or sorcerer to levels of Mage, and levels of cleric to White or Black Mage, levels of Druid to Green Mage, and levels of bard to . . . Bard.


Q: What to do with spell-like abilities, spell-casting items, and such. Leave them as they are? That seems the easiest route.

A: As with monster abilities, spell-like abilities and items should be okay as is, if you’re running an existing campaign and are just converting.  But if you’re starting a new campaign, it would probably be best for compatibility if you converted spell-like abilities and handed out magic items that used the EOM rules.  


Q: How can I use the Elements of Magic in epic-level play?  And how do spell lists progress past 9th level?

A: Unfortunately, as the Epic Level Handbook is not open content, we can’t publish epic rules for the Elements of Magic.  The revised rules and the expansion book will contain rules that should lend themselves easily to scaling above 20th level.


Q: Can I use feats from other Wizards of the Coasts rulebooks with the Elements of Magic?

A: Certainly.  Most of them should be compatible with the EoM rules, though a few may be a little obsolete, especially when we release the expansion book.  You’ll see what we mean.


Q: Who can use scrolls? Are the limitations the same as in the core rules?

A: Scroll use is similar to the core rules.  Unless you use the Use Magic Device skill, you can only cast spells from spell lists that are available to your class.  If you use the optional color mages, for example, a white mage cannot use a scroll with a spell accessible only to black mages.  If you use the default Mage, he could use any scroll with an EOM spell on it.  He could not, however, use a standard arcane or divine spell scroll, if you are using EOM in conjunction with the standard rules. 


*Questions about skills and spell lists.*
Q: Are the applicable modifiers of the Scry skill all cumulative?

A: Yes.


Q: A 10th level caster could use alter reality 3 multiple times to get a +6 inherent bonus to some ability score, correct? (Assuming he has enough XP, of course).

A: That is correct. This should not be a game balance issue, however, since a 10th level character is unlikely to use that much experience  to boost one ability score.  If he was just using the XP to level up, he’d be 11th level instead, on his way to 12th, and even +6 to a key ability score like Charisma or Intelligence is just about evenly balanced with being entire level behind the rest of the party.


Q: Is there any penalty for an Outsider or Elemental besides not going home for the Bind spell lists? There are plenty of minor and major demons that would see the Prime Material Plane as a great place to live (and where they aren’t in fear for their very existence every moment of every day like they would be in the Abyss). It seems the Bind spell lists need a bigger stick to make the pact they agreed upon have force.

A: The Bind lists are a bit misnamed, due to a simple bit of confusion during editing.  The spells do not actually bind anything; they bring an Outsider or Elemental fully into the Material plane.  They are in no way controlled, although the caster can negotiate with them or fight them.  Nothing prevents them from staying on the Material plane, unless the game master wishes it.  (The game master can simply rule that they do not want to stay, for whatever reason, if he does not want them there.)


Q: Why were Outsiders exempted from being affected by the Enchantment lists like Charm [Creature] and Dominate [Creature]? I don't see any particular reason that you can't select an Outsider version of these spell lists, and it would cover PC Outsiders as well (tieflings and aasimar, half-fiends and half-celestials).

A: Due to space limitations, some ideas, such as this, were left out.  We will include them in the follow-up book.


Q: How do you cast a light spell? For the life of me I couldn't figure out a way to make it happen.

A: You can cast Create Light Object.  The object will radiate light as an elemental side effect (see page 10).  The intensity of the light will depend on the level that you cast the spell at.


Q: I asked a question that didn’t get answered here.  Why not?

A: Many of the questions and concerns that we have been asked are too long to go in to in a document like this.  Those more complicated questions we will address in revised book, or in the expansion book to come out later this year.


*Official Rules Change*
Page 74: Further playtesting by the general public has shown that the Evoke [Element] spells are too weak as presented.  They had both a touch attack (or ranged touch attack) as well as a saving throw, making the spell list too weak compared to the Evoke Area [Element] lists.

Thus, the saving throw for all of the Evoke [Element] lists should be removed.  Additionally, Evoke Force should simply use the Evoke Black [Element] table for damage, since there is no longer a difference between it and any other black Element.

*Errata.*
Page 26: The hit dice for the grey and red mages should be a d8.

Page 39: The Spellcraft skill was modified during the editing process so that it takes 8 hours, to coincide with the Core spell identify.  However, the author never intended to keep that restriction.  The game master can decide whether to keep this restriction, but it will not be present in the revised version.

Page 56: In the Abjure [Creature] list, under the Warding section: The area affected is a 5-ft. radius per spell level, so you can't do this option with a cantrip.  It is a 5-ft. radius at 1st level, and a 45-ft. radius at 9th level.  You can choose to ward a smaller area if you wish.

Page 57: In column one, the second paragraph of the Elemental Absorption section is entirely incorrect.  The example used data from an earlier version of the spell list.

Page 59: A clarification on Alter Reality – the XP Cost column is the minimum cost for casting the spell.  Some versions cost more, as given in their description.

Change the next to last paragraph to:

“You wish for a staff of power.  Rather than getting the staff, the game master decides that you teleport into the presence of the current owner of such a staff.  Such a teleportation is at least a 5th level spell, so the spell fails outright if you used less than Alter Reality 6, the minimum level to duplicate a 5th level spell.  If you did use Alter Reality 6 or higher, the spell costs 3,000 XP, which is ten times the cost of duplicating a 5th level spell.”

Page 66: There should be an additional line on table 6-2, listing the penalties for the Dance version.

................Dance
Level........Penalties
0..............-1
1..............-1
2..............-2
3..............-2
4..............-3
5..............-3
6..............-4
7..............-4
8..............-5
9..............-5

Page 70: The Polymorph effect of the Cursecraft spell list should function like a Polymorph [Creature] spell of 2 spell levels lower.  Thus, a 7th level polymorph curse should act like a 5th level polymorph spell.

Page 78: The Fan version of Evoke Area [Element] should be clarified.  It is intended to be a half-circle, just like the burning hands spell of the Core rules.

Page 84: Under the Invisibility list, the duration of the 0 level version should be 2 rounds.

Page 86: The Paralysis & Petrification list has a prerequisite that was omitted:
Prerequisites: Infuse Creature with Crystal, Earth, Lava, Metal, or Mud.

Page 88: First paragraph in column 2: Polymorph [Creature] gives a Disguise bonus that varies by spell level, rather than a flat +10 bonus.

Page 90: Under Polymorph [Creature], the first line of the last paragraph should read: “Ethereal or incorporeal creatures can be targeted by this spell only if you are also ethereal or incorporeal.”

Page 92: Column one, in the first paragraph of Preserve: a small creature fits in 5 cu. ft.

Page 92: A clarification on Regeneration: it has the same duration and restores hit points at the same rate as Fast Healing, its prerequisite.

Page 95: Summon [Outsider] should use the same HD table as Summon [Element].  


*Quick Poll:*
Before we close here, we’d like to ask if those of you who use EOM or are interested in it would be willing to assist us once the revised rules come out.  The core D&D rules have thousands of spells available, created by the creative minds of many gamers.  These spells come from thousands of different game worlds, and represent numerous magical traditions, more than any single game designer could ever create.

Since the actual spells from Elements of Magic are fairly simple and generic, it’s up to players and game masters to add the flavor.  We’d like to ask your help to contribute flavor to these rules.  When the revised Elements of Magic comes out, we’re considering starting a new sub-forum on the ENWorld messageboards to showcase various spells.  You’ll be able to post threads with various spells, detailed with flavorful specifics, and if we ever compile a list of these spells, we’ll credit the appropriate authors.  Sure, a million mages might know Evoke Fire or Abjure Force, but how does your character cast the spell?  What types of unique spells have you created?

If you’d be interested in aiding us in this task, please tell us on the boards.

*Thanks to: *
All those who sent me emails or posted their questions and concerns.  A special thank-you goes to Johannes Luber, who sent me several very long emails with over a hundred errata and questions.  Other important contributors to the FAQ and errata include Gregg MacDonald, Ausderop, Cheiromancer, Great Cthulhu, Justice Beloved, Mortaneus, Tezrak, Urbanmech, Victim, and Volcivar.


_Errata and FAQ to The Elements of Magic, May 30, 2003._


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## Kahuna Burger (May 30, 2003)

One of my favorite parts of EoM was the skill/mp uses. Will the sequel or update include more examples of magically enhanced skills, and maybe a way of gaining them? (like instead of adding a spell list when you go up a level, you choose a skill you already have X ranks in and can now use it magically?) I've had an idea for an expert style skill based mage kicking around since I first read EoM.

Kahuna Burger


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## Dalamar (May 30, 2003)

A questions regarding skills:
Does the use of the Dispel Magic skill provoke an Attack of Opportunity?
What kind of action is it to use this skill?
Isn't it possibly overpowered to allow a mage to dispel at a potentially much higher dispel bonus (skill rank max is level +3, ability modifier applies) than a standard wizard?

What is the difference between the magical ability of Alchemy to identify potions compared to the normal possibility to do so?


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## RangerWickett (May 30, 2003)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> *One of my favorite parts of EoM was the skill/mp uses. Will the sequel or update include more examples of magically enhanced skills, and maybe a way of gaining them? (like instead of adding a spell list when you go up a level, you choose a skill you already have X ranks in and can now use it magically?) I've had an idea for an expert style skill based mage kicking around since I first read EoM.
> 
> Kahuna Burger *




In the sequel book, we were already planning to present mp-based usages for as many skills as we could.  Usually the mp would just provide a brief, magical bonus to your skill check, kind of like how the Jump spell gives you a bonus to your jump checks.  However, we plan to get rid of a few spell lists, like Sight, and replace them with magical usages of Spot and Search.




> _Originally posted by Dalamar_
> *A questions regarding skills:
> Does the use of the Dispel Magic skill provoke an Attack of Opportunity?
> What kind of action is it to use this skill?
> ...




Dispel Magic gave us some trouble in figuring out how to balance it.  To take a logical munchkin-ized extreme, imagine a 20th level Mage, +23 from skill ranks, +5 from an ability score, and +2 skill focus to boot.  With a +30 skill check, he could counter _anything_ for only a few mp.  Obviously not a good idea.

We're revising it, however, and this is a substantial revision, so we weren't originally going to post it here, but I can give you the overview.  And, as with everything else, this will probably get tweaked before we release the final revisions, so don't take this as gospel yet.


*Dispel Magic** (Cha, exclusive skill, trained only)*
Use this skill to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, end ongoing spell effects within an area, or counter another spellcaster’s spell.

A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired.  Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, cannot be defeated by Dispel Magic.  Dispel Magic can dispel (but not counter) the ongoing effects of supernatural abilities as well as spells.  Dispel Magic affects spell-like abilities just as it affects spells.  Spells with an instantaneous duration can be countered but not dispelled, since their ongoing effects are real and not magical.

Note that whenever the text refers to a spell, it can also apply to spell-like abilities and supernatural abilities, unless stated otherwise.

*Normal Check:*  There is no way to use this skill without expending MP.

*Magical Check:* You can choose to Dispel Magic in one of three ways - targeted dispel, area dispel, or counterspell.  The maximum range for any of these abilities is 100 ft. plus 10 ft. times your caster level.  You can counterspell a spell if either the caster or target is within range.  Generally the DC of a Dispel Magic check is 16 + the caster level of the spell being dispelled.  For spell-like abilities and supernatural abilities, use the creature's caster level if it has one, or its Challenge Rating.

Any of the three ways incurs an attack of opportunity.  You suffer a penalty to your Dispel Magic check equal to the amount of damage dealt to you while attempting to use this skill.  You can attempt to use Dispel Magic defensively, with a Concentration check (DC 15 + 1/2 the amount of mp spent on this skill [see below]).  This counts as spellcasting for the purposes of the Combat Casting feat and similar abilities.

Your ability to dispel is based both on your skill ranks and on your magic points.  Whenever you make a Dispel Magic check, you can choose to use some or all of your skill ranks.  Using this skill costs 1 MP, plus 2 additional MP for every 5 skill ranks you use (or fraction thereof).  You must choose how many ranks you are using when you declare your action, and even if you fail your attempt, or if your attempt is disrupted by damage, you still lose that MP.  You still add your Charisma modifier and any other bonuses even if you choose to use no ranks.

_For example, Leska is a skill Orcish Inquisitor, a 20th level Mage with 23 ranks of Dispel Magic, an 20 Charisma, and Skill Focus (Dispel Magic), for a total Dispel Magic check of +30.  Dueling against a rebel sorcerer, Leska uses Spellcraft to see that he is protected by several defensive spells to combat Leska's charm magic.  The wards are weak, but a nuisance, so Leska attempts to dispel them with a Targeted Dispel (see below).  Figuring the effort will be simple, she only devotes 5 ranks to countering the spell, costing 3 MP.  She still has a +12 Dispel Magic modifier from her ability scores and feats, so she easily dispels the defenses.

Later, Leska is confronted by a rival Inquisitor who attempts to dominate her with a powerful spell.  Not wanting to take any risks, Leska attempts to counterspell it, using her Reactive Counterspell feat.  She uses her full 23 ranks for the Dispel Magic check, spends 11 MP, and uses her full +30 Dispel Magic bonus._

_Targeted Dispel:_ As a standard action, you may attempt to dispel any of the magic on a creature or object, or to dispel a freestanding magical effect.  This usage of Dispel Magic can only affect one creature, object, or freestanding spell at a time.

You can make a Spellcraft check in advance to determine what spells are affecting a creature or object (see the Spellcraft skill, below), and if you succeed in identifying a spell, you may choose to ignore it.  Similarly, you can choose not to affect your own spells that are active on the target.  For each other spell active on the target, however, make one Dispel Magic check (DC 16 + that spell's caster level).  If you succeed, that spell ends as if it duration had run out.

For creatures and items that have magical abilities with a permanent duration (such as a flaming sword's flame, or the fire resistance of a Mage who has chosen certain boons), that effect is suppressed for 1d4 rounds.  If you succeed a Dispel Magic check against a summoned creature, that summon spell ends, and the creature vanishes.

If you attempt to dispel one of your own spells, you do not need to make a check.  Thus, if you aren't trying to dispel any other effects, this usage only costs 1 MP.


_Area Dispel:_ You affect everything within a 30 ft. radius burst.  For each creature or object that is the target of one or more spells, you make a Dispel Magic check (DC 16 + caster level) against the spell with the highest caster level.  If that fails, you make Dispel Magic checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell or fail all your checks.  Only one spell can be dispelled per creature or object.  Magic items are not affected by area dispels.

Any and all area effect spell within the area dispel can be affected, but only the part of the spell that is within the 30 ft. radius burst.  Thus, part of an area effect spell may still be in effect even with a successful Dispel Magic check.

As with a targeted dispel, you can automatically dispel your own spells.

An area dispel usage of Dispel Magic costs an additional 2 MP.


_Counterspell:_ Normally, you can counterspell if you know the same spell that another spellcaster is casting.  However, if you don't know the spell, don't have enough MP to cast it, or failed your Spellcraft check to identify the spell, you can attempt to make a Dispel Magic check to counter the spell.  You must use a readied action to counterspell, unless you have the Reactive Counterspell feat.

Make a Dispel Magic check (DC 16 + opposed caster's caster level).  If the opposed caster has 5 or more ranks of Dispel Magic, increase the DC by +2.  If you succeed, the spell is countered, the opposing spellcaster's MP or spell slot being wasted with no effect.


*Feat: Reactive Counterspell*
You can counterspell even if you haven't readied an action.
*Prerequisite:* Dispel Magic 8+ ranks.
*Benefit:* As long as you are not flat-footed, you may attempt to counter a spell as a reaction, without having to ready an action.  If you do so, on your next action you are treated as if you have already taken an attack action, leaving you with just a move action in normal cases (you could still cast a quickened spell that turn, however).

You decide whether you want to use this feat after you make a Spellcraft check to try to identify the spell being cast.  However, if you do use this feat, you lose your action next turn even if your counterspell attempt fails.  You can only use this ability once per turn.


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## RangerWickett (May 30, 2003)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> *What is the difference between the magical ability of Alchemy to identify potions compared to the normal possibility to do so? *




And I managed to forget to answer this question.  A magical alchemy check can reveal the formula for creating the potion.  If you don't use potion formulae as an integral part of your game, you could probably go without this magical skill usage.  I haven't asked Cyberzombie about this one yet, but maybe he intended to let you make a magical Alchemy check without needing a lab?


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## BryonD (May 31, 2003)

> Q: I have at least one misgiving: Magic Points. I think the mage has way too many: 310 at level 20, not counting Intelligence. This is around 17 or 18 9th level spells. I cannot imagine how this will affect an otherwise standard DnD scenario.
> 
> A: Every spell point system that has been introduced for D&D has faced this complaint. Some gamemasters worry that their characters will cast only the highest level evocation spells available, laying waste to everything in sight. However, a few playtests reveal that canny spellcasters won’t waste their power that quickly, and even if they do, the final result is little different from doling out destruction in smaller packages, except that there tends to be a bit more overkill.




Any chance this question will get a bit more response?

I mean, even assuming that a caster will spread out, the comparison does not stack up.

Compare a L14 Sor to L14 EOM mage.  (ignoring any ability bonuses)
Sorc L7 spells per day castable:  3

EOM L7 spell points:  142.  Max L7 spells per day = 142/13 = 10+.
So he CAN cast 3 times as many of his most powerful spells. 
Just saying he won't doesn't resolve the wide discrepancy.  The EOM buy can easily burn 5 level 7s and still have 1/2 his power left to spread around on mop up.  

And how many different L7 spells can he choose from?  Sorcerer: 1  EOM Mage:  a meager 56.

L6 spells?  Sor 2 known;  EOM 56.
L5: S3  EOM 56.
L4: S4  EOM 56.
You get the idea.

How many L14 Wizards know 56 different spells?    Much less 56 of EVERY level, including their highest?

Why can the EOM mage outblast the sorcerer and be more flexible than a wizard?

Seriously, what am I missing?  How is this remotely balanced?


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## scholz (May 31, 2003)

I have playtested the EoM a bit and have decided to drop it from my games. 
The main reasons are:
1. Unbalanced... Mages are like super Sorcerers with more spells, more flexibility, and more powerful spells. Ranged Healing for everyone!
2. Spells too ambitious.... Spells like infuse with element too useful, a single spell can duplicate a half dozen other spells. 
3. To Generic (the spells have very little character and the system seems to discourage colorful spell).... The option to 'personalize' spells is interesting but entirely left to house rules, well you could do that with the core rules. Since the EoM give no advice except a couple of examples. 
4. Easy to Abuse... Take Armor Casting Boon, then multiclass as fighter. Get the power of Arcane spells with no real limitations. This is not a huge problem (equivalent to 1st edition multiclasses) but not balanced with other classes, no reason not to multiclass as a mage really. 
5. Some minor annoyances:
(a) detect magic should not also require intuit direction to find existing magic.
(b) missing some key spell-lists (a useful low level armor spell, or reasonably long term light for example)
(c) the elements and their side effects are still unclear, especially shadow, life, crystal, biomatter.

So... in the final analysis. I dropped it. 
This was a good experiment. I am not sorry I played around with it. It really underscores the difficulty coming up with a system that is flexible but not too powerful. I think the spell list idea is interesting, and there is something be done there. Maybe Sorcerers could get something like that (maybe higher level spells of like kinds earlier). I am also optimistic that a MP system of some form could be developed. But I think basing the points on the sorcerer rather than the wisard would make more sense. Lastly, I do like the various spell-skill conversions. But, I think that there ought to be some features that do not cost MP.

If there were more support and any feedback early on I might have tried to stick with it. But I have little confidence that EN Publishing is really behind this product.


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## RangerWickett (May 31, 2003)

There are two issues, one more serious than the other.

Regarding the spell point vs. spell slot division, have you tried playing 3e psionics?  A similar 'problem' happens, where a 14th level psion can use a 7th level power 6 times per day.  If a psion tries to play like that, what happens is that he uses up his good powers quickly, perhaps kicking butt for a few rounds, but leaving him with little to fall back on if the party has multiple encounters in one day.  The effect is that the character uses up his resources overly quickly, and it is quite noticeable if the party has multiple encounters in the same day (which seems to generally be encouraged by the 3e rules).

It's a slightly different dynamic from what most D&D-ers are used to, but it still works, especially with one other change we'll be making in the full revised rules.  Damaging effects will no longer scale by caster level, but by MP.  Thus, a 1 MP Evoke Fire spell will deal the same damage when cast by a low-level or a high-level casters.  If you want to deal 10d6 points of damage with an Evoke spell, you're going to need to spend (I think) 9 or 10 MP.  This will effectively negate any problem you might have with being able to cast multiple high-level spells per day.  If you think about it, a Lightning Bolt cast by a 10th level wizard is more like a 5th level spell than a 3rd level spell.


Now, to the second issue - the access to more spells than an equivalent caster from the existing Wizard or Sorcerer classes.  

There are several factors to consider in regard to this topic.  First, both Cyberzombie and I agree that the original system was broken in some places, being both overly complex and having certain areas where the power level was not conducive to a balanced game.  That's why we're giving them a fair overhaul for the revised version.

Second, most of the spell lists cover a narrower area than current spells.  Charm Humanoid is much the same as Charm Person, but you need more than 10 different spells to equal Charm Monster.  When you see the other changes we're making, particularly to the Illusion spells, you'll see that EOM spells mix versatility and limitation in odd ways.  Again, it's a new paradigm of spellcasting, and so some of your expectations from D&D will have to be changed.

Third, in both core D&D and EOM, a lot of the spells are there for flavor, rather than necessity.  I'm sure you've seen threads where people have figured out the optimal sorcerer spell load so that the character can cast a little of everything.  Charm person, mage armor, magic missile, shield, glitterdust, invisibility, resist elements, fly, tongues, fireball, stoneskin, polymorph other, scrying, cone of cold, teleport, greater dispelling, etc.  Pick these staple spells, maybe grab the Energy Substitution feat, and you have all the power that a character really needs.  The rest of the spells are just there for you to establish your schtick.

In EOM, we just make it clearer what core spells you need if you want a little bit of everything, and then we encourage you to create a unique character.  In the revised rules, there are only going to be 12 primary spell lists:  Abjure, Charm, Create, Evoke, Heal, Illusion, Infuse, Move, Summon, Telepathy, Transform, and Ward.  Each has several different version, depending on what element, alignment, or creature type you pick.

Fourth, remember about the scaling spells effect I mentioned above.  Think of the spells as being 56 1st level spells that just scale nicely as you gain levels, instead of being 56 7th level spells.

Overall, I'm fairly confident that the system will work perfectly; we both plan to do some playtesting with our groups to make sure we don't make any completely moronic mistakes, and indeed, we may reduce the number of spell lists you learn slightly.  But the key thing to remember is that EOM magic doesn't work exactly the same as D&D magic.  They're like automatic vs. standard transmission, or between learning French or Japanese as a foreign language.  They accomplish much the same thing, but the specifics are a little different, and there are some things you can do with one that you can't do with the other.

(By the way, in my opinion, D&D 3e right now is sort of like pidgin English being spoken in a colony in the 1500s. )




On a half-related note, have you ever played Talislanta?  It's a great system, with a magic system somewhat similar to EOM (it's skill-based instead of level-based, but it's still close).  In that system, spellcasters have access to even more versatility than EOM mages do, but they don't overshadow the non-magic-using characters.  That's because magic has its drawbacks, and because a well-made warrior should be able to do more damage in combat than a wizard.  The wizard just gets the flashy, useful abilities, the real _magic_ of things like flight, shapeshifting, and seeing the future.


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## RangerWickett (May 31, 2003)

scholz said:
			
		

> *If there were more support and any feedback early on I might have tried to stick with it. But I have little confidence that EN Publishing is really behind this product. *




Well, I understand your problems with the system as it was; that's why I was hoping to get it revised since about February this year.  Unfortunately, Cyberzombie had gone AWOL for a while with children, and I didn't want to meddle in his creation.  Then, just as I was starting to meddle and propose my ideas for a revision, he shows up and we start working on the revised version.  

I am definitely devoted to keeping this product updated and supported.  I mean, we won't be releasing adventures for it (they sell like ice cubes in antarctica), but as the revised system starts to shape up, I'm becoming more and more enthusiastic.  Of course, it depends on a positive reaction from the users of the system; that was part of the reason FCTF has taken so long to get updated too.  When we asked for fan submissions for the Big Book of Super Powers, we only got about 10.

Plus, God, it's hard to keep a steady writing schedule while at college.

Anyway, over the next couple of weeks, we'll be dropping a few teasers of the revised rules as we start to get things pinned down clearly.  I hope you keep coming back to see what we post.


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## scholz (May 31, 2003)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *There are two issues, one more serious than the other.
> 
> Regarding the spell point vs. spell slot division, have you tried playing 3e psionics?  *



*

My limited experience with it showed me it was really broken. The Psionic Warrior in the party basically had super powers that gave him super strength, speed, and stoneskin 24 hours a day. It was really annoying. Actually my experience with EoM was somewhat similar, though I experienced it as a DM instead of as a player.

I think the idea of the scaling by MP is a good change.  I think the main power problem I had was not the access to many high level spells. In fact the high level spells seemed kind of lame and uninteresting compared to Core rules higher level spells. (maybe this is prejudice from 1st edition I have). I guess that would reduce the problem of the power gaming somewhat. That and scaling back the number of spell lists per level. 

My main concern about power was the versatility. If that too is being reduced I think that is a good thing. 

Then the only real problem would be covering the minutae of spells. I think you need to be able to create and use simple spells like "darkvision" or "water breathing" that might not scale appropriately. The MP cost instead of level difference is a start. But why would l use a spell-slot for "water breathing" with only one or two variations, when I could spend the same spell slot on "evoke lightning" with dozens of variations (damage, area, etc..)?

Any fix looks like to me like it would go the path of point based gaming "Hero System, GURPS" or the like. [Maybe using different costs for differently versatile spells). That is fine, but I don't think it fits the genre very well. Of course, I would be happy to be wrong. 

Am I to take from your comments that the revised EoM will over ride the (ahem) FAQ-Errata that was just published. 

One last question. Any discount for previous buyers of EoM on the revision? 

I appreciate the fact you guys can take some constructive criticism. That is very cool.*


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## BryonD (May 31, 2003)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *Regarding the spell point vs. spell slot division, have you tried playing 3e psionics?  A similar 'problem' happens, where a 14th level psion can use a 7th level power 6 times per day.  If a psion tries to play like that, what happens is that he uses up his good powers quickly, perhaps kicking butt for a few rounds, but leaving him with little to fall back on if the party has multiple encounters in one day.  The effect is that the character uses up his resources overly quickly, and it is quite noticeable if the party has multiple encounters in the same day (which seems to generally be encouraged by the 3e rules).
> *





L14 Psion 87 points per day  (124 if you use ITCK)
L14 EOM 142 points per day

And psions have far less flexibility.  They, again, have FAR fewer powers (addressed further below).  Their powers are constrained by multiple abilities.  They have far fewer powers to choose from.  And their powers are weaker.  

L6 Sor casts L3 Spell Fireball:  6d6 damage  (avg 21)
L6 Psion manifests L3 power whitefire 5d4 damage (avg 12.5)
L6 EOM cast L3 Evoke Area Fire: 5d6+6 damage (avg 23.5)
The EOM mage gets nearly two times to effect as the psion you are holding up for contrast.  

L10 Sor casts L3 Spell Fireball:  10d6 damage  (avg 35)
L10 Psion manifests L3 power whitefire 5d4 damage (avg 12.5)
L10 EOM cast L3 Evoke Area Fire: 5d6+10 damage (avg 27.5)
So now the EOM is more than 2X over the psion.  The sorc is now about 20% ahead, but his advancement stops, he still knows WAY less spells and can produce significantly fewer of his highest level spells per day.  (He also has 20 less skill points and has one moderate boon that is fixed to being a familiar, compared to two moderate and one minor boons that can be selected from a list.)

So, yes, I have played psionics.  They work well.  
Compared to an EOM mage they have FAR fewer powers, less flexibility, less power (points) and FAR less bang for their points.

Now, as to EOM mages not having 56 L7 spells a L14; I see your points, but they only go a very short way towards fixing the problem.  For the sake of argurment, lets assume that only 10% of the spells are "good" and useful.  I think the truth is closer to 75%, but I can make my case with 10%.  OK, so you have  5 "real" L7 spells at L17.  This compares to the sorcerers 1?  5 "real" L6 spells compared to the sorc's 2?  You have to go down to L1 and L2 where The sorc has topped out at 5 to even be equal.  So assuming 10%, the EOM mage has far to many spells avialabel to be considered balanced.  Add in that 10% is a vast underestimation, and that the sorcerer is done getting spells below 4 and the comparison goes from worse to beyond.


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## netnomad (May 31, 2003)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *
> On a half-related note, have you ever played Talislanta?  It's a great system, with a magic system somewhat similar to EOM (it's skill-based instead of level-based, but it's still close).  In that system, spellcasters have access to even more versatility than EOM mages do, but they don't overshadow the non-magic-using characters.  That's because magic has its drawbacks, and because a well-made warrior should be able to do more damage in combat than a wizard.  The wizard just gets the flashy, useful abilities, the real magic of things like flight, shapeshifting, and seeing the future. *




Oh yea, I really like that system and wish there was something like it for d20.  I really like the idea that you use a skill check to cast spells and when you fail things go wrong. You can power up a spell but there is also a chance for failure and the more power you use the bigger the chance for failure.

The closest things that I have seem like this for d20 is Chaos Magic from Mongoose but it’s to complex to use “on the fly” and they don’t get you prepackaged spells like Talislanta.

Another thing I really like about the system is that magic has consequences.  The more magic you used the more things go wrong... that type of thing.

Now, RW if you combine Wild Spellcraft, EoM and a Skill system I would buy one for everyone in my group and me! 

I tinkered with this idea before but just could not get the mechanics “just” right.  It was fun though.  If anyone is interested in what I have done I can did it up and post the file.

-NetNomad


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## Phaedrus (Jun 2, 2003)

I just wanted to say I'm glad you guys are back and are working on this.  I really like EoM and look forward to the revisions and new version.


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## Moonsword (Jun 4, 2003)

I'm also glad you guys are working on the revision.  I run as a GM rather than as a player, and I've found EoM useful for throwing a monkey wrench at players.  Give them a very exotic spellcaster, but make them NPC assistant, don't let 'em see the stats.  That way, they don't know what they can and cannot do, but be consistentet.  I ran a sorcerer-equivalent like this for a while.  She was pretty useful, filled in for the AWOL arcane spellcasters and the missing cleric for spell versatility.  No healing, but they had a druid.  While the rules are occasionally a little... odd, they can make some incredible NPCs with some really strange powers, and flavor is something that can be played around with nearly endlessly.


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## r-kelleg (Jun 11, 2003)

I'm in complete argeement with scholz's comments.
Moreover, as I already noticed in a previous thread, some spells are even stronger than original ones. For exemple, Fly can now be cast at the 2nd level. Zone effect spells can now be cast at the 1st one. This make the magic user too powerfull in comparison with other classes.
Unfortunately, nor the FAQ nor this looooooooooooooooong waited  errata handled those problems.


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## Cyberzombie (Jun 12, 2003)

r-kelleg said:
			
		

> *Unfortunately, nor the FAQ nor this looooooooooooooooong waited  errata handled those problems. *




I'm sorry about the delay on things, but my now 10 month old baby came before the Elements of Magic.    He's old enough now to not need quite such constant care, so I'm back on the case.

The changes we're making cover several areas, and are extensive enough that we just can't cover them in an FAQ/Errata format.  We need to make things compatible with 3.5, which necessitates some major changes on a number of spells.  We also need to reduce the power level of certain spells.  As many of you have pointed out, some things ended up more powerful than they were intended to be.

I'm sorry for the delays, but I believe that the 3.5 update will be well worth it.  I also believe that the sequel we're working on will also be well worth the wait.


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