# News Reporting Poll, Take 2



## Morrus

OK, you've had a little time to get used to the new "style" of news reporting, so I thought I'd post another poll. Originally people voted about 55% in favour, 32% didn't like it and 13% didn't care one way or the other; however this was on the first day of the new style, and I'm wondering if opinions have changed since then. So, here's the new poll.


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## Kugar

I think the front page is MUCH more enjoyable to read now.

Thanks Morrus.


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## Wildcard

While I can definitely see the merits of both methods or reporting, I prefer the old method.  It made it a lot easier to quickly peruse the news to find items of interest.


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## Jhyrryl

*Difficult to Search*



> While I can definitely see the merits of both methods or reporting, I prefer the old method. It made it a lot easier to quickly peruse the news to find items of interest.




I have to agree with Wildcard.  The first time through it's okay to read, if I'm in the mood to read, but if I'm trying to find a particular link I saw the day before, it's a real pain.


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## derverdammte

I'm good with it.  Once you tweaked the basic organization and layout a little bit, I found it much better.  It's not as accesible as the old style, but there's more personality to it (which is good).


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## houlette

I like the new news style, but I agree that it *is* more difficult to scan.  How about putting key points in boldface (or something similar)?  Or, if you were willing to use some simple hidden markup codes in the text, you could have a simple script pull a digest version out that could go in the archives.

Ryan


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## Beazel

*Finding items of interest*

As I type this I am the 9th "bad" vote to 45 "good" so nothing is going to change.    However, I <u>will</u> state that my reason is the same as those above me -- I have trouble scanning for items of interest in the new format. It takes me longer to read the site, and makes me less likely to want to visit when I know how long it takes to read all this now.

--Bob


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## greymarch

Every time I try to vote, it gives me the following message:

"The action you have attempted could not be performed as your session appears to be invalid. Click the below link to attempt this action again with a new session."

I am logged in correctly when I try to vote.

Since I am having trouble voting, I will express my opinion here:

I do not like the new opinion related form of news on your website.  I get enough opinions each day from work, the news, my family, my friends, etc.  I just want the hard-core facts and news related to d20, and specifically D&D.

The free-form style also makes it more difficult to pick out the stuff I want to read versus the stuff I dont want to read.  I prefer listings of information, as you did previously.


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## JDRay

houlette said:
			
		

> *Or, if you were willing to use some simple hidden markup codes in the text, you could have a simple script pull a digest version out that could go in the archives.*




Hey, now there's an idea!

I, too, like the new style.  It's much more personable.  I tire quickly of information that's presented in "soundbytes," preferring to read complete sentances with something akin to punctuation used.  On the other hand, I seem to tire of subjects where the author drones on for pages about little or nothing of interest.  You seem to have found a decent middle ground.

It would be good, though, to have the ability to scan (do a search?) through the news history, only looking through topic phrases for paragraphs.  I wonder how hard that would be to implement...


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## Raelcreve

*New Format*

~M~

New is easier to read.

Old is easier to find stuff.

News site with archives:  should have both.

Suggestion:
Use a mix of new and old.  Use the old style of grouped by subject, as in a table with links on the main page.  In the linked pages use the new style for ease of reading.

It is html after all.

And it's your site, if you want to plaster your opinion on it, that is your business (and right).

I love you man.
~R~


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## Psion

Still don't like it. Old news much easier to digest.


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## poilbrun

I prefer this type of news everyday, but I'm afraid it's a lot more difficult to find something when you look for it some days after the reporting... Still, I answered Good because I believe it's better this way!


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## Kershek

I still prefer not to have opinion in the news.  I'd much rather see comment links to each news item where people can talk about them (like www.ve3d.com does it).


It's interesting that most all the comments posted so far are negative, even though most of the votes are positive.


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## Henry

Psion said:
			
		

> *Still don't like it. Old news much easier to digest. *




I hate to say it, but ditto with me.


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## CRGreathouse

I like it, but wish it was broken up more - with headings or the like.


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## EarthsShadow

*its cool*

I like it, you provide more information than before and I don't mind a little extra reading.  I am used to it based on how long some of the rpg books we read are.


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## Piratecat

The boards are fun to read now! I like it *much* better.


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## Suzerain

***


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## Kal Torak

*Good and Bad.*

I find that I miss the ability to quickly scan the news for things of interest but I also like the fact that there is more meat on the "news bone". I think that the suggestions of previus posters are very good, I think that with a simple bold headline-title to the news items the ease of finding thinks of interst would be greatly increased. 
I understand the wish to move away from the simple headline news that the site used to use and I fully agree with it but I do find that specially when I have missed a few days of news it becomes almost impossible to cach up with the current events. So a simple highlight of the gist of the news would be great.
I don't think I like the idea of a serch system. It's hard to know what news is of interst to you (if you already knew what it whas it would'nt be news!).


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## TheAuldGrump

I definitely prefer the older news page format. I like to get my info straight rather than conversationally. Seeking information on old post was easier than the new method, now you read less the first time through but finding an older announcement takes more work.

The Auld Grump


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## EricNoah

Definite thumbs up to me -- your personality is starting to shine through, and it seems less like a bunch of lists.  Still, there are somethings that deserve the list treatment and I'm sure when you get tired of trying to work Map a Week into a sentence you'll figure out a good compromise.  

I like the idea of highlighting key words to call attention to paragraphs -- or even mini "headlines".  Kinda like this old news:

*Master Tools Poll:* You can participate in three polls about Master Tools here. The first poll asks about your plans to purchase the initial Master Tools product; the second asks you to pick the most important unsupported MT feature; and the third ... (etc.)

This is a prose passage but the headline allows the reader to decide whether this paragraph is relevant to him/her before reading the whole thing.  

I don't think all news items need such treatment, however.

edit: Oops, I see you did this very thing for one article ("New D20 products available").  That's the idea, I think a little more of that would help guide folks.


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## HellHound

While the old method was MUCH easier to get information from and digest, the new version makes it a lot more personable.

I would actually go for a mix of the two.

I like the elaboration and "fluff" of the new style, but I think it should be used for one or two news items per day, and also include a news summary at the top for each day, in point form, like the old news.


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## WanderingMonster

I say scrap the whole text thing, and post an audio file, where you read it to me like a bed-time story.


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## Morrus

WanderingMonster said:
			
		

> *I say scrap the whole text thing, and post an audio file, where you read it to me like a bed-time story. *




Yeah, but then instead of getting people who email me to tell me I spelled "rumour" wrong, I'll end up with people who tell me I pronounced "address" wrong....


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## Agnostic Paladin

*Bad*

But not really bad...

While it is a more interesting read if I take the time to dig through it, I can no longer quickly skim it easily and read what looks interesting.


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## Dragongirl

Well it would not let me vote, gave me this error message :

The action you have attempted could not be performed as your session appears to be invalid. Click the below link to attempt this action again with a new session. 

And no I didn't vote and try to again.

I would have voted bad, the new reporting style seems to be too chatty and too self serving, which is fine if that is what you want.  I find I have to go through more filler stuff to find the things I am interested in so that is why I would have voted bad if it had let me.

About the site in general, wish you would get rid of column on the right, or at least put it in the left column.  The news gets too squeezed and it still look too crowded.


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## Altin

Well, I am quite a big fan of the new style because I find myself clicking the links more often than with the old style because of the bit of 'fluff' that goes with it. Also, I'd almost plain given up on reading the old style because it was too difficult for me (as a casual observerof the d20 thing) to tell what might be of interest to me and what might not. 

Additionally, writing is always more engaging when it contains character so it helps make the front page more enjoyable. 

Yours,
Altin


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## Olive

initially hated it, now i can't imagine going back...

but i do wish that the links would open in a new window like in the message boards. i spend more time on the boards than at the front page and always forget...


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## Morrus

Olive said:
			
		

> *
> but i do wish that the links would open in a new window like in the message boards. i spend more time on the boards than at the front page and always forget... *




Just right click and select "open in new browser".


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## Ketjak

*What's the point?*

Harder to read news and collect information, which is purportedly the main reason for the site. I like Morrus, and I like his (your) filtering of the crap from the good stuff, but I don't want to wade through prose about his (your) Creature Counter or how great it is to talk to someone from some company to get that news.  

Easy-to-find information with a link to an editorial or "gossip" column featuring his (your) views would be great. Frankly, I'd probably read it - but on nights when I have only a few minutes to scan and read one item of interest, those few minutes are spent reading the news page to find that information... which I no longer have time to read.

Yes, I'm about ready to find a new source for that information. No, I don't know what I'll do, but I have tested it and it's easier to scan the top pages of a few sites (Monte, Wizards, SKR's, a few RPG sites) and find one item of interest than it is to read the main news page at ENWorld now. 

- Ketjak


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## dema

*Mixed Messages*

When i first read things here, after the news reporting change, I was wondering what happened to Morrus.  He seems kinda mean, and rough ( I like that sometimes though.)  And I felt offended by some of the editorial style comments (actually I think I was just caught very off guard.)

The old news was easier to read, and scan through, but wasn't as fun.  I got used to the person Morrus is now, and find things less offensive.

If writing like this, and putting editorial style reports will keep "you" interested, then hell do it.  I'd rather have this site in its current form than not at all.

Some think it's cool that your personality shines through now, and it might take me some time to adjust. This is funny coming from me, who is a very vulgar, and cuss word person, who is blunt, evil, sadistic, but overall the nicest person you can find anywhere, with a heart of gold.  

But personality matters, and your personality does give this website character. Take it for what it's worth. And thank you for sticking it though.

good luck finding that balance, it might take a while.

-dem


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## jollyninja

whatever it takes to keep the site up man, i do not know what i'd do without it. i like it! it's less robotic. i have the time to wade through it and find what i'm looking for. And most of the time it's an enjoyable read. less like a CNN for DnD, more like a fan site done by a guy with personal rapor with the people who create the thing the site is dedicated to.


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## Morrus

*Re: Mixed Messages*



			
				dema said:
			
		

> *When i first read things here, after the news reporting change, I was wondering what happened to Morrus.  He seems kinda mean, and rough ( I like that sometimes though.)  And I felt offended by some of the editorial style comments (actually I think I was just caught very off guard.) *




Really?  Eeek!  I like to have a bit of fun, but I don't want to be mean to anybody.


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## Morrus

*Re: What's the point?*



			
				Ketjak said:
			
		

> *Harder to read news and collect information, which is purportedly the main reason for the site. I like Morrus, and I like his (your) filtering of the crap from the good stuff, but I don't want to wade through prose about his (your) Creature Counter or how great it is to talk to someone from some company to get that news.
> 
> Easy-to-find information with a link to an editorial or "gossip" column featuring his (your) views would be great. Frankly, I'd probably read it - but on nights when I have only a few minutes to scan and read one item of interest, those few minutes are spent reading the news page to find that information... which I no longer have time to read.
> 
> Yes, I'm about ready to find a new source for that information. No, I don't know what I'll do, but I have tested it and it's easier to scan the top pages of a few sites (Monte, Wizards, SKR's, a few RPG sites) and find one item of interest than it is to read the main news page at ENWorld now.
> 
> - Ketjak *




I think that the sort of site you're looking for is http://www.gamingreport.com - check it out, you'll probably find it to your liking.  They present headlines linked to news articles.

I'm not sure I want to have the sort of site that someone just glances at.  I'd prefer to have the sort of site that people spend some time at.


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## android

I think you've come up with a good median ground by adding in the horizontal rules and putting in some more bulleted lists.  Overall, i'd say you did a very good job listening to my suggestions from the first post.  I'm just glad I could have such an impact on ENWorld!!

All thank you notes can be addressed to me, all complaints still, of course, go to Morrus.


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## Ring Wraith

I still prefer the old page.  It seemed more organized and segmented for an easy find of the info you want.  Now I must say that this is still the best D20 page around.  Maybe some kind of compromise between old and new style?


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## Ketjak

*Re: Re: What's the point?*



			
				Morrus said:
			
		

> *
> I'm not sure I want to have the sort of site that someone just glances at.  I'd prefer to have the sort of site that people spend some time at. *




Thanks for the link.

I think I didn't make my point clearly enough, since we agree but it doesn't feel that way; I used this site to find all the information I want to read about, then participate in the polls and participate in the message board. It's called, in short, my "community."

By changing the way the news is presented, I - and some of the people posting in this thread - find it harder to collect that information. Now instead of having the main ENWorld page open as my first browser window, I have several... which reduces the time I spend and the likelihood I will spend time reading and, admittedly occasionally, posting to the message boards.

In short I'm drifting away from the community I've found comfortable for the past two years or so.

Do I like that? No.

Do you have to change to suit my needs? No.

Do I think there's a way to present your _content_ in a _format_ that meets both of our needs? Yes.

I'm not alone, Morrus - other people are making the same points I am, albeit a minority of us. What's frustrating to me is that you can satisfy the people who like the new content _and_ the people who want the old format, or you can leave the site more difficult for the "newsies" to use and enjoy. In the end, that's your choice, right?

- Ketjak


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## Ketjak

*Re: Re: Re: What's the point?*



			
				Ketjak said:
			
		

> *Discussion about news format snipped.
> 
> - Ketjak *




I haven't even touched upon the "WotC product schedule" and "upcoming D20 products" lists, each of which leads to a _reviews_ page. The old site format had the upcoming products in a sidebar; the new site has links to your product catalog and the other information - the stuff that those links are supposed to lead to - is lost.

Oi, that's annoying. I expect it from the WotC or Monte's site, not a community site. It's like Dragon doing a Forgotten Realms special when the FRCS came out. 

To be honest I was going to get a membership, but I knew this change was bad for me. I figure within months I'd have paid a membership to a site I no longer visit, a lot like my subscription to Dragon pa_id_ for issues I got little to no value from.

- Ketjak


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## Cardinal Aidan

I much prefer the new style. Much more of a D20 blog now. I was tempted to start one recently, but I much prefer the way Morrus did it.


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## Blacksway

I prefer the new format I think, feels more like you're talking to us than just listing stuff...

... but can you bring the old icons back so we can tell which section is which perhaps?


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## MonkeyBoy

*Re: Re: Re: Re: What's the point?*



			
				Ketjak said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I haven't even touched upon the "WotC product schedule" and "upcoming D20 products" lists, each of which leads to a reviews page. The old site format had the upcoming products in a sidebar; the new site has links to your product catalog and the other information - the stuff that those links are supposed to lead to - is lost.
> 
> Oi, that's annoying. I expect it from the WotC or Monte's site, not a community site. It's like Dragon doing a Forgotten Realms special when the FRCS came out. *




Aye; the site is _just starting_ to turn into "My best mate has just released XYZ, please buy it...from me." There used to be a veneer of objectivity, but its wearing off, sadly.

I mean to say that the feel of the site has changed from a news site towards (not yet fully to) an advertisement.


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## The_Old_one

I don't think that is true, or fair MonkeyBoy- Morrus is one man doing an excellent job with little in return save ad revenue, shop profit and our kudos. Nobody I know can live on appreciation, and the man needs to make a living doesn't he? The objectivity is still there, but we've all gotten so used to Morrus' style and personal likes that we can see it in his reports...my tuppence for waht it's worth- not intended to be a flame or whatnot


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## evildmguy

*Several days missed*

I don't mind the new style but I still voted against it.  

I did so because if I miss several days, as I did due to a business trip, then reading through that much is very tough, compared to the summarized version.  

Yes, if I see it every day, it isn't bad and it quite nice to read.  Even trying to read two days worth, though, gets to be tough.  

(I personally find myself skimming it and looking at the links at times instead of reading everything.)

Just my 2 coppers.

edg


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## Furn_Darkside

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What's the point?*



			
				MonkeyBoy said:
			
		

> *
> I mean to say that the feel of the site has changed from a news site towards (not yet fully to) an advertisement. *




The problem with this conclusion is that if you look at the forums and the reviews- you will see unfavorable comments of Natural d20 products are not censored.

And all publishers are welcome to plug their products on the forums.

I have not noticed any shift in attitude of the site since the formation of Natural d20.

FD


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## JeffB

Henry said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I hate to say it, but ditto with me. *




Me Three


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## collin

*Convinced*

I must admit I was not enthused about the new format, but having gotten used to it over the past several days, I'd say it's fine.  I haven't really missed the bulleted items like I thought I would.

Keep up the great work,

Collin


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## Jhyrryl

*Community*

Ketjak's points about community are actually important to the success of your site.  You've taken what used to be a news page, and turned it into a personal blog.  Blogs don't build communities - at best they generate a collection of groupies.

You've got about 20% of your respondants saying that they can no longer use your site effectively.  Chances are, that's 20% of your current community that will start to disappear.  Now look at comments to the effect of "I liked it, after I got used to it."  For new users of your site, the "wall of text" is a barrier - the first impression is "this isn't useful to me."

Current "customers" will go away, and you've added a barrier to attracting new customers.  It's up to you to decide whether you want this to be your personal site, or to be a tool for the d20 community.  If it's for the community, that front page needs to be useful.  Put the banter in the boards or a seperate "editorial" section.


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## Ketjak

*Good step!*



			
				Blacksway said:
			
		

> *I prefer the new format I think, feels more like you're talking to us than just listing stuff...
> 
> ... but can you bring the old icons back so we can tell which section is which perhaps? *




Even that minor blend of the old and new formats would make the new format much more useful. Right now if I want WotC news I have to skim until I find it, rather than look for the WotC logo... Where's the d20 publisher news? I have no idea unless I skim and find a name I recognize among the several hyperlinks in the text.

I *like* the news, and I even like most of your exposition, Morrus - but there's certainly a more convenient and efficient way of presenting that information. I'm not arguing against _content_, just the _format_.

- Ketjak


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## Morrus

*Re: Re: Re: Re: What's the point?*



			
				Ketjak said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I haven't even touched upon the "WotC product schedule" and "upcoming D20 products" lists, each of which leads to a reviews page. The old site format had the upcoming products in a sidebar; the new site has links to your product catalog and the other information - the stuff that those links are supposed to lead to - is lost.
> 
> Oi, that's annoying. I expect it from the WotC or Monte's site, not a community site. It's like Dragon doing a Forgotten Realms special when the FRCS came out.
> 
> To be honest I was going to get a membership, but I knew this change was bad for me. I figure within months I'd have paid a membership to a site I no longer visit, a lot like my subscription to Dragon paid for issues I got little to no value from.
> 
> - Ketjak *




Unfortunately, your utopian view of a website's content doesn't match with economic reality.  Y'see, websites cost money.  This website, in particular, costs an awful lot of money with its high traffic - we're talking over $1000 per month.  If that $1000 is not paid one month, then *poof!*, goodbye website!  The hosting companies will turn the servers off without a second thought.

So those who complain about any of the vaguely commercial elements - I have to say that that complaint is just uninformed.  I'll make you a deal - I WILL remove those commercial elements IF you can give me an alternative method of funding the site.

I'm sorry, much as I like you, I can't afford to pay $1000 out of my own pocket just for the privilage of providing you with a service.  This is what many people seem to expect from me.


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## Morrus

*Re: Good step!*



			
				Ketjak said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Even that minor blend of the old and new formats would make the new format much more useful. Right now if I want WotC news I have to skim until I find it, rather than look for the WotC logo... Where's the d20 publisher news? I have no idea unless I skim and find a name I recognize among the several hyperlinks in the text.
> *




There is a d20 logo.  Just like there always was.


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## Morrus

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What's the point?*



			
				MonkeyBoy said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Aye; the site is _just starting_ to turn into "My best mate has just released XYZ, please buy it...from me." There used to be a veneer of objectivity, but its wearing off, sadly.
> 
> I mean to say that the feel of the site has changed from a news site towards (not yet fully to) an advertisement. *




I resent that accusation.


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## Morrus

*Re: Re: Re: What's the point?*



			
				Ketjak said:
			
		

> *Do I think there's a way to present your content in a format that meets both of our needs? Yes.*




Well, I hate to say it, but there's not much point repeating that it can be done without explaining how.  

I mean, you've explained _your_ needs quite clearly.  Unfortunately, your ideal site would fold within a month. 

So, let's make a list.  Here are my needs:

*The site must raise a significant amount each month just to support itself.
*If I'm reduced to just posting lists, the site will be closed with in a month.  Same with just reproducing press releases.  You can get a bit of code to do that - you don't need a human being.

I probably have other needs, but they don't occur to me right now.

The two complaints I see are about precisely those two issues -- commerciality and personality.  I consider both to be a necessity; you guys consider both to be abhorrent in some way.


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## Morrus

*Re: Community*



			
				Jhyrryl said:
			
		

> You've got about 20% of your respondants saying that they can no longer use your site effectively.  Chances are, that's 20% of your current community that will start to disappear.  Now look at comments to the effect of "I liked it, after I got used to it."  For new users of your site, the "wall of text" is a barrier - the first impression is "this isn't useful to me."
> 
> Current "customers" will go away, and you've added a barrier to attracting new customers.  It's up to you to decide whether you want this to be your personal site, or to be a tool for the d20 community.  If it's for the community, that front page needs to be useful.




I diagree with your statistical analyisis - the number of people who responded are not even close to a representative sample, and the subject is skewed to attract those who dislike the status quo.  

Traffic has been going _up_, not down; so I'm afraid that poeple aren't leaving in droves.  You're very much presenting your personal opinion as statistical fact here.



> Put the banter in the boards or a seperate "editorial" section.




Splitting up the news would double the time it takes me each day. Already it's a couple of hours daily just for the news; I can't increase that to 4 hours.


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## Dragongirl

Eric had his site up for who knows how long, you had yours up a year before you changed it.  Was there a problem with it paying for itself before you changed it?  Just asking.  But if it lasted so long before you changed it, your statement about it folding in a month if you just did news doesn't make sense to me.

The end line is, it is your time and your site and you can do whatever you want.  However you did ask for our opinions so I hope you won't get upset with us for saying them.

Personally I come here because it is advertised as a "news and reviews site", not as a chat site.


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## Morrus

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *Eric had his site up for who knows how long, you had yours up a year before you changed it.  Was there a problem with it paying for itself before you changed it?  Just asking.  But if it lasted so long before you changed it, your statement about it folding in a month if you just did news doesn't make sense to me. *




There's a vast difference.

Eric had a deal with Gamespy.  They paid him a monthly stipend to run the site.

Traffic is much, much higher than it was before.

Even then, Gamespy had developed a habit of switching off things like the messageboards when traffic got too high.  Today, the messageboards would be up about 5% of the time if the site were at Gamespy.

Gamespy had a whole bunch of rules which Eric didn't agree with and which contributed to his closing his site.  I certainly don't agree with them either.

Thus, the site has to make its way on its own.  And therefore costs money.


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## Morrus

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *
> 
> The end line is, it is your time and your site and you can do whatever you want.  However you did ask for our opinions so I hope you won't get upset with us for saying them.
> *




I don't mind opinions, but some of them are just completely uninformed.  That's OK, but I have to correct people when they make incorrect assumptions.  

People seem to be asking for some ideal utopian free site.  My question is: OK, that's cool.  I like that idea.  Where's the money going to come from?  Are these the sorts of people who expect all services to come free - roads and public services without taxes, for example?  There are real economic considerations that they just don't seem to want to acknowledge.


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## dema

Morrus I was just caught off guard.  I got used to "you" Thing s feel different because this site used to be just a reporter, and not a person.

Advertise what you have too, if that gets you a click and some cash great.  I would have plastered this page with click here to win that and click here to buy this awesome thing (like the DragonBone dice roller, can you find it? anyway)


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## Morrus

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *Eric had his site up for who knows how long, you had yours up a year before you changed it.  Was there a problem with it paying for itself before you changed it?  Just asking.  But if it lasted so long before you changed it, your statement about it folding in a month if you just did news doesn't make sense to me. *




Are we talking about the style or the commercial aspects now?  The two a separate issues.  The commercial aspects have been there since I took over - they didn't suddenly arrive last week.


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## Morrus

Incidentally - we have digressed completely from the subject of the thread, which was about the news style, not about commerciall stuff.  The latter has been covered time and time again, and I really don't feel like getting into it once more.  One day I'll post a FAQ, but for now, you'll just have to believe me when I say it is necessary.  Or not believe me, as you choose.

But it's irrelevant.  We're talking about the news reporting style. I'll be commenting no more on financial stuff in this thread!


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## Galfridus

*I like the new style much, much better!*

There, that should stand out. 

I found the personality of the new style to be exactly what I was looking for. Reading bulleted lists may be more efficient, but it gets dry very, very quickly. 

I notice that 70% of respondents have responded that the new format is "Good". I doubt you'd get a much higher percentage if Gygax was doing the news.


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## EricNoah

I would wager there's no one out there willing to give Russ the deal I had at Gamespy.  I believe this because after a while even Gamespy was not willing to give me the deal they had originally agreed to.  In order for me to maintain my stipend, I was asked to plaster the site with more ads -- more kinds of ads, specifically "boxillas" (which look like kind of a text box which my articles would wrap around) and pop ups.  

I chose not to do that.  The money started to dry up big-time.  And that, along with other factors I had been weighing for months, led me to leave the site in Russ' capable hands.  

Russ has been doing the thing I never had the guts to do -- make the site work like a business.  He's done it in three ways:

1) an affiliation with an online RPG store.  I did the same thing with Amazon.com, until Gamespy told me I couldn't any more.  

2) banner ads.  I love the fact that the banners here are all for products I could potentially be interested in.  No more "Love Pheromones" or "Girls in Bikinis Talking About Sports."  So the situation here is better.

3) Natural 20 Press.  This is the best thing that's happened to the site, in my opinion.  Russ has provided many of our community members the opportunity to get published.  He himself is learning what it takes to be "in the business."  You benefit, then, because Russ can comment with authority on issues related to the d20 publishing business.  Natural 20 Press products are a great synergy between fan and publisher, in my opinion.  

I think Russ has done a great job of maintaining the site's integrity while generating the needed revenue.


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## Furn_Darkside

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *
> 2) banner ads.  I love the fact that the banners here are all for products I could potentially be interested in.  No more "Love Pheromones" or "Girls in Bikinis Talking About Sports."  So the situation here is better. *




Or the one that suggested women should get a credict check on a man they were involved in- or something along those lines. Heh.

FD


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## Orcus

Morrus-

I know I am in the minority, but I have to say that to me it is MUCH easier to scan the news when it is in bullet point format. I didnt realize how much easier until you changed the page back to that format today. It really is MUCH easier.

Clark


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## The It's Man

Well, I prefer the more personal touch of the news. Then again I like to read . The 'new way' had me clicking on a couple of links, I'm almost sure i hadn't clicked on if it was bulleted.

If the need for the bulleted style is so high, how about this:

One of the posters make a bulleted piece of html of the news Morrus posts and send that to him so he can upload it as an alternative.


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## Skarp Hedin

Hey Morrus, I really like the new style.  It's far more entertaining to read, etc.  I agree with Orcus that it's easier to find things in the older style, but I prefer the new way anyhow.  It's less important to me to find all manner of specific things than to have a good time reading the front page, and I don't mind if I have to go hunting around to find older stuff.


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## Kershek

How about making the commentary colored slightly differently so it's easy to skip over for the ones that don't like to skim?  That way, both types of people could be happy.


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## Morrus

Kershek said:
			
		

> *How about making the commentary colored slightly differently so it's easy to skip over for the ones that don't like to skim?  That way, both types of people could be happy. *




I'm trying to think of how I can combine the old layout with the new content.  The two don't _quite_ mesh, but suggestions (and examples!) are welcome.


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## Suzerain

***


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## Ketjak

*Re: Re: Re: Re: What's the point?*



			
				Morrus said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Well, I hate to say it, but there's not much point repeating that it can be done without explaining how.  *




Morrus, this is my error. I thought I explained it well enough in the first thread on this subject. I'll dig it up if you care, but I don't: I can share it again, only more clearly and in a more refined manner than my original clumsy post. 



			
				Morrus said:
			
		

> *
> I mean, you've explained your needs quite clearly.
> *




Er, perhaps. I'll explain them again and try to show how a blend of the two formats will work for us all. The old-style news format with the new editorial format should be able to fit together.



			
				Morrus said:
			
		

> *
> Unfortunately, your ideal site would fold within a month.
> *




I'm not so sure. My ideal site was in operation for over a year and a half... unless the money's dried up.

For what it's worth, I went ahead and paid $25 for a "membership" which will be worth it even if I only get a new title (that's a community-building tool, by the way - ensures a unique ID and displays status) and can use the search functionality (that's a community-building tool, too, since searching/archiving allows the community to reference past events ("history"), which is critical in an online context; online communities _almost entirely_ exist in written form).



			
				Morrus said:
			
		

> *
> So, let's make a list.  Here are my needs:
> 
> 1. The site must raise a significant amount each month just to support itself.
> 2. If I'm reduced to just posting lists, the site will be closed with in a month.  Same with just reproducing press releases.  You can get a bit of code to do that - you don't need a human being.
> 
> I probably have other needs, but they don't occur to me right now.
> *




I replaced your asterisks with numbers.

Your #1 is clearly a need.

Your #2 is not a need, it's an argument supporting #1, it seems.

I don't see the need to support a community - I see only the need to support the site, which I suppose implies the need to support the community (one can infer it from that, at least).

If #1 were your sole need, the site would truly become crappy because there are more effective ways to generate cash - at least in the short term. I argue, therefore, that one of your unknown other needs is "to foster a community based on the d20 system - its players, publishers, and developers - with a focus on Dungeons & Dragons."

Fair enough?

I'm looking for the same thing. I'm not looking to tear you or the site down. I need:

Ket01 - fast and easy access to news about d20 products.
Ket02 - fast and easy access to news about d20 publishers.
Ket03 - fast and easy access to news about d20 events.
Ket04 - a forum in which I can discuss or observe discussions about d20-related rules, news, or events.
Ket05 - recognized status of myself and others within the community (this is a basic need of any community, I'll argue whenever I get the chance).
Ket06 - a feeling of ownership of part of the community (again, another basic need of an online community - reference any online MMORPG (guilds, the corrupted "It's OUR World Now" slogan from EQ's early days), or even the "clans" from the FPS community).

One can argue that the site provides all of these things, and I would not argue against that. My main point is that the new format _inhibits_ access to these things (though I noticed the links to the upcoming products now link to upcoming products, no longer to reviews of released products).

Ket01-04 are stated to be specific to this site's community formation, but _any_ online community needs those same traits as they apply to the subject that interests them. An online dog show community will find news about dog shows more useful than, say, news about the next round of WotC layoffs). 

So, I've put my money where my mouth is - I registered a few minutes ago. Next, I'll try to pull the news from a few days ago out of the archives and doctor it up so it's easier to extract the information, like I've been arguing could be done. Please keep in mind that since I don't regularly mess with HTML my effort will be sloppy and poorly done compared to what an expert can do.

When? Um, heh. I'm already late to something else, so perhaps tonight. Yes, I suck. My whole argument is based on the new format taking too much time to read, so I'll trade some d20 surfing for a chance to illustrate what I'm talking about. 

(It's ironic, by the way, that you didn't have time for the new-style news and so resorted to the old-style... if time is a concern of yours, too, we should be working toward the same solution, not opposing each other.) 



			
				Morrus said:
			
		

> *
> The two complaints I see are about precisely those two issues -- commerciality and personality.  I consider both to be a necessity; you guys consider both to be abhorrent in some way. *




One last thing - don't take this argument personally after you've literally opened the issue up for discussion. You need to be prepared for criticism in a medium in which you ask for criticism, or don't open it up. If anything, you should be proud that the community cares so much it's willing to argue for what it thinks is best. 

- Ketjak
A Monkey God


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