# LOST: The Final Season (Spoilers)



## Demmero (Feb 2, 2010)

The beginning of the end is tonight. Anyone still interested? Last year, I believe one thread sufficed to cover the whole of Season 5, not individual episode threads, so I'm putting this up now.

For me...this is probably the least excited I've been for a season premiere. Not sure if I've mentioned this before, but I really hate time travel and its ilk, and last season's finale (Juliet banging on the bomb until she managed to white-screen us all) just left too many possibilities for me to get excited and try to guess where (when?) the Lostaways would turn up next. I bought the Season 5 DVD set when it first came out but didn't finish watching it until yesterday; usually I watch the whole package within the first week of getting it.

That having been said...it's great to have Lost back! For someone who really hates time travel (Have I mentioned that before?), I'll admit that the writers of Lost have handled the concept well enough for me to still be hooked. I miss not being able to watch the show each week and then come here and bounce crazy theories off other ENWorlders (Yeah, adding "When?" to "Who?" "What?" Where?" and "Why?" short-circuited something in my brain), but I'm still hooked on the show's mysteries and its characters. The producers have said the final season will hearken back to the first--my favorite season.

I'm not sure I'm going to love the final "payoff" at the end of the season, but it'll be fascinating to finally get some answers to the lingering mysteries. I'm personally waiting to find out why Libby was in the mental hospital watching Hurley.

Oh yeah--and what's the deal with Vincent the dog?  

Happy watching!


----------



## Fast Learner (Feb 3, 2010)

I certainly enjoyed the episode. Plenty of WTF, but with lots of interesting ideas, so I'm good.


----------



## RangerWickett (Feb 3, 2010)

Unimpressed here. I feel like they've abandoned the character-based storytelling that made the show good, and are focusing too much on plot momentum. It would be fine in some shows, but I like Lost for its characters.

Correction. I like Lost for some of its characters, who apparently aren't the ones the writers like, because the ones I like keep dying.


----------



## Fast Learner (Feb 3, 2010)

Whereas while I love the characters, I was desperate for some plot movement, so found it very satisfying.


----------



## EricNoah (Feb 3, 2010)

Loved it!


----------



## Jack7 (Feb 3, 2010)

Yes, I really like many of the characters in Lost. But to me Lost is like church for television. I don't get excited or even interested by much television, or film either for that matter. I'm not by nature of the modern entertainment culture, nor am I interested in media for the sake of media. (Media to me is simply a means to an ends, not a thing in itself.) But Lost to me not only has interesting characters, and a fascinating plot, but it implies so many things (both inside itself and outside itself) in a metaphysical fashion that's it's hard for me to not feel naturally akin to it.

So I'm gonna follow it with great interest.

I can honestly say it is the only show on television that I will actually interrupt my work for to sit down and watch. It's also one of the few shows I've ever seen on television that when an episode is over I will say to myself, "_Damn, I wish that had went on longer_."

It's kind like a sacrament to me, and I don't mean that to be disparaging to any sacrament or to the show itself. To me it's a sort of psychological sacrament and when it's over I almost always say to myself, "I'm glad I experienced that."

Even though it is not real, it leaves an impression on me almost as if it were real.


----------



## Quantum (Feb 3, 2010)

I really enjoyed it. Time travel is one of my favorite story styles.

Minor spoilers ahead.

But, the reason for the change of the focus to be plot more than character, is because they have made promises to explain things, what the island is all about, what the major players are, and why these characters are involved. I hope they follow through. I really really do.

And, they were able to use some sort of reset button. There were two stories going on simultaneously, one where they never crashed and how they got to that point. 

But I really hope things work out for Charlie and Kate. Charlie did sacrifice his life in the end and should get something in return for that.

I also feel kind of sorry for Ben. His entire world, as criminal as it may be, is about to be completely overturned. And it does seem that the smoke being does have a soft spot for him. I call it a smoke being because I'd always suspected that it was a fully sentient being early on in the show, tonight's episode fully supports that notion that it is a fully sentient being of some sort. I hope they explain its presence on the island as well.







MAJOR SPOILERS

~ if you are going to put major spoilers in an ongoing thread, it is a good idea to put them in an sblock tag like this. Thanks! ~ Plane Sailing.

[sblock]




A quick cut scene revealed the island is at the bottom of the ocean. So, of course this reveals that they did use the reset button.

I whole heartedly wait for the reveal on how they did this, and how doing it affects their lives. There does already seem to be an effect on Hurly, who no longer seems to have a curse on his life and is a successful fast food chain owner.

[/sblock]


----------



## Remus Lupin (Feb 3, 2010)

I've been looking forward to it. Missed last night though because of the game. I'll have to catch it online.


----------



## Man in the Funny Hat (Feb 3, 2010)

I've been looking forward to it and dreading it as well because it means the show is ending and its one of the few shows left on TV that I make any effort to watch.  I thought last nights episode was not quite as compelling as I'd hoped it would be but it was alright.  The editing seemed a bit off which was surprising for a big 2 hour season opener that they should have had tons of time to get just right.  I imagine that as the season picks up and heads toward the final conclusion that pacing will pick up and things will get tighter.


----------



## EricNoah (Feb 3, 2010)

I loved the ringing in Kate's ears ... that was quite effective.  I thought something had happened to me!


----------



## Fiery_Dragon (Feb 3, 2010)

I liked it a lot.  I've waited since last season to see if Jack's plan (Daniel's plan, really) would work and reset them back to flight 815 or would fail to work and leave them on the island, and I wasn't sure if I had a preference.

I'm so excited that the writers decided to go with both ideas.

The "Revised" 815 crew were thinking about firing the bomb and destroying the Swan and therefore saving their plane from the crash.  I love the fact that the bomb went off and didn't just reset their lives, but sent ripples out, changing things from the late '70s forward.  Desmond ended up on the flight; Boone couldn't retrieve his sister; Hurley is the luckiest guy; Oceanic has a terrible track record with cargo.  And, for some reason, the island has sunk to the bottom of the ocean.

In terms of characters, it's cool to see that, despite the fact they're not stranded on the island together, they are still drawn together.  Which means that we haven't been following random, arbitrary characters for the past 5 seasons, but people that are destined to intertwine in each other's lives.

Meanwhile, the Island crew leave the '70s and catch up with the rest of the show.  We get confirmation that Lock is the Smoke Monster (suspected after last season), we see inside the temple and find the missing tailies that were taken by the Others so long ago; we see the Others' "Lazarus Pit," and I think that may be a hint to how Richard stays so young.  Also, hints that Richard came as part of the Black Rock slave cargo.

Looking forward to Jin and Sun being reunited on the island; also, sad that the Revised versions may not find their love again.  It's a great way for the writers to give us opposing stories at the same time.

I'm most excited at the possibility that there's aren't alternate dimensions, but co-exist.  Reset Jack on the plane in 2004 could, eventually, hook up with Island Jack in 2007.  Or, what if they can start sharing thoughts and working together?

Anyway, great new possibilities and interesting story structure.  Fun times ahead, and the secret I've found to loving this show is enjoying the journey and not worrying about the destination.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Feb 3, 2010)

My theory is that the non-crash scenes are basically the denouement; what happens after they _do_ stop the crash.  However, having an episode that is basically following up on their normal lives is boring.  So the writers are giving us the end and the follow-up at the same time, through the idea that the bomb both worked and didn't work.

I guess it's Schrodinger's Bomb.


----------



## Richards (Feb 4, 2010)

Yeah, my son coined a new term for these alternate reality scenes.  In the first 4 seasons, we had the regular story and the flashbacks.  Then, last season, we had "flashforwards."  Now, this season, apparently we're getting "flashsideways."

Johnathan


----------



## Demmero (Feb 4, 2010)

Fiery_Dragon said:


> we see inside the temple and find the missing tailies that were taken by the Others so long ago;




I've been wondering myself if we'd see them again. It looked to me like Cindy (the stewardess) had perhaps risen a few rungs on the Others' power ladder; she certainly didn't look like she'd just popped back out of the late 70s. It seems that the island's "record skipping" time jumps didn't affect her, though she crashed on the island at the same time as Sawyer, Hurley, and the rest. Not touched by Jacob, perhaps?


----------



## Mark (Feb 4, 2010)

They have raised the stakes and I am glad for it.


----------



## Quantum (Feb 4, 2010)

Guys, here's an exclusive.








The second episode of the season is now up on Hulu.








MAJOR SPOILERS









Sayid dies.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Feb 4, 2010)

Quantum said:


> Guys, here's an exclusive.




You do know that's the same as the second hour that played last night, right?


----------



## Quantum (Feb 5, 2010)

LightPhoenix said:


> You do know that's the same as the second hour that played last night, right?





No, I went to bed right after the first episode.


----------



## Mark (Feb 5, 2010)

Quantum said:


> No, I went to bed right after the first episode.





If you could flashsideways* to that time you could both be sleeping and watching it.




*Thanks to Richards the Younger!


----------



## Man in the Funny Hat (Feb 5, 2010)

Quantum said:


> Guys, here's an exclusive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 He's only mostly dead.


----------



## Mark (Feb 5, 2010)

Man in the Funny Hat said:


> He's only mostly dead.





You've called his _blave_.


----------



## delericho (Feb 6, 2010)

About two seasons ago, I reached a point with Lost that I just _had_ to know how it ends, but I don't particularly enjoy watching it. (I call this the "Wheel of Time" effect.)

The first two episodes of this season matched this entirely - too many new characters, too much that wasn't explained, too much jumping around, and yet I'm left waiting eagerly for the next episode.

So, to be honest, I'm glad it's finally coming to an end, but at the same time hoping that the writers do, somehow, manage to pull it all together.


----------



## Quantum (Feb 6, 2010)

So you want everything to be explained in one episode instead of over a season?

There are about twenty episodes a season, so have some patience.


----------



## delericho (Feb 7, 2010)

Quantum said:


> So you want everything to be explained in one episode instead of over a season?




No, but if they want to get everything covered, they need to start explaining _some_ things, and they probably shouldn't be adding three or four new layers of mystery with so little time remaining.



> There are about twenty episodes a season, so have some patience.




There are sixteen episodes this season, of which fourteen now remain. And I've been having patience for four years now. If they're going to explain things, the time is _now_.


----------



## Shayuri (Feb 7, 2010)

I actually felt like these two episodes was where they were really starting to throw the final explanations together. I mean, we now know what "John Locke" is, in some measure. We have some idea of what his motivation is, assuming he's being truthful. 

It now seems likely that most of the paranormal events we saw on the island were the result of this shape-changing 'smoke monster.' All part of its scheme. That was by no means clear before. What the nature of this 'monster' is...as it's obviously NOT a security system...is yet to be explored, but at least we have it embodied in a character that doesn't seem to mind talking now. Which is a good start. 

I suppose my feeling is that we're being guided to ask the questions that really matter now. Now all they have to do is actually, y'know, _answer_ them, and we'll have a nice ending.


----------



## RigaMortus2 (Feb 8, 2010)

It's the Doc Brown alternate time line theory going on 

If Charlie doesn't play at the Enchantment Under the Sea dance, they will all be erased...

"You don't know who Doc Brown is? He invented the DeLorean." - Ben, Knocked Up


----------



## EricNoah (Feb 8, 2010)

I love the idea of the old losties and the new not losties running into each other.  

I knew in my head that one group was 2007 and another was alt-2004, but I didn't feel like I was hit over the head with it and I wonder if that was intentional - something to mislead us...


----------



## Quantum (Feb 9, 2010)

My feeling is that they're showing what their lives would be like if they had never crashed on the Island. But I think that is doesn't quite happen that way because of the scene that shows the island on the bottom of the ocean. Somebody had to cause that island to sink. And I think that is what the focus of the story will be about.

And I think it will involve the final confrontation with the smoke being somehow.

It also remains to be seen who are the good guys and the bad guys in the conflict as well, and who they actually are.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Feb 10, 2010)

Well, not much answered that episode. Are the writers aware this is the final season?


----------



## Fast Learner (Feb 10, 2010)

I get the feeling they're reframing the questions so they can be answered more satisfactorily.


----------



## Shayuri (Feb 10, 2010)

The alternate timeline where they didn't go to the island doesn't seem to me to be exactly 'what would have happened?' There are signs of meddling.

Desmon's temporary presence, for example. And Charlie's sense that he's 'supposed' to die.

My current, very loose, theory is that the splitting of timelines is perhaps something that Jacob sneakily arranged as a mechanism by which he could effect a resurrection of sorts. A kind of "backup reality" in which he was never killed by Ben. Of course, the island is sunken, and he may still be dead in that line...but there seemed to be something special in how Smokey fixed things for Ben to kill him. Some reason why it -had- to be done that way, or it wouldn't work.

The merging of the two lines to resolve back into an uninterrupted singular history would seem to be the direction of the plot, and ultimately the culmination of all the machinations of all the various entities throughout the show. I'm quite keen to see what is revealed in the process.


----------



## RangerWickett (Feb 10, 2010)

The island goes boom, which kills Charles Widmore before he can sire Penny. Thus Desmond's life takes a very different path.

The island went boom, so all the folks evacuated before the incident never went back. Hence Ethan Goodspeed, son of Horace, grows up in America.


----------



## Quantum (Feb 11, 2010)

Warning, minor spoilers.

Last night's new episode revealed that Jack had a sister.

This is news to me. I'm seen most episodes and at least for the ones I've seen they never said anything about him having a sister, at least to my recollection.

So was there an episode that showed Jack had a sister?

_If not_, then this is just a new piece of information with which they're going to have to show. And I wish they hadn't said anything about him having a sister. Because I'd like them to concentrate on what had already happened in the series prior to this and shouldn't have jsut magically added a sister at the last minute to create some other connection to the island.


----------



## RangerWickett (Feb 11, 2010)

We found out that Claire was Jack's (half-)sister something like 2 or 3 seasons ago. When Christian Shephard went to Australia, he was trying to go see his daughter. The mom rebuffed him, so he got drunk and died.

I don't recall if Jack knows that they're related.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Feb 11, 2010)

RangerWickett said:


> We found out that Claire was Jack's (half-)sister something like 2 or 3 seasons ago. When Christian Shephard went to Australia, he was trying to go see his daughter. The mom rebuffed him, so he got drunk and died.
> 
> I don't recall if Jack knows that they're related.




He does; I think it was last season when they were off the island, Claire's mom told him.


----------



## Fast Learner (Feb 11, 2010)

Yup, Claire being Jack's (half) sister is definitely old news.


----------



## Quantum (Feb 17, 2010)

Regarding the infection...

I wonder if the smoke being has anything to do with it. He might even be the reason why children can't really be born on the island.


----------



## RangerWickett (Feb 17, 2010)

Ha. Just when I'm sure the show is headed nowhere, they go and have a good episode centered on characters I like. And hurray, Kate isn't one of the numbers! This proves our assumption that she's unimportant and can die in a fire!


----------



## Mark (Feb 17, 2010)

We don't know that we saw all of the names and numbers, do we?  Are we of a mind that the only candidates are those who we saw Jacob touching in the specific montage, and that that was all of them entriely?  If so, it must be significant that Monster Locke doesn't know which Kwon is meant by the chalk writing.


----------



## Banshee16 (Feb 17, 2010)

So who is the kid in the jungle?  Is it possible Jacob has reincarnated?  He's a kid on the island, and will grow up and return to power?  He told Locke that Locke (or whatever he is) knows the rules, and "he" can't be killed.

What if the island is some kind of prison?  Obviously, given various signs, including the black and white rocks on the scale, and things in previous episodes, Jacob, and whatever the being is that inhabits Locke are opposites....good and evil.  Locke keeps talking about being trapped, and at the start of the episode ending last season, they had a discussion on the beach during which the guy in black told Jacob something about the world only needing to end once, or something along those lines...

Maybe the island is a prison for this evil being, and Jacob was his warden?  As long as Jacob's around, he can't leave.  Only with Jacob dead can he get off the island.  Maybe there's a balance, and Jacob actually can't die...which would force Locke to act quickly, while Jacob is down, in order to get off the island.

Richard Alpert obviously knows something.  Hopefully at some point he's going to have an opportunity to tell someone what's going on...at least before Locke kills him.

Banshee


----------



## Quantum (Feb 17, 2010)

I think that kid is Aaron who will replace Jacob. I think this was hinted at early on because of the insistence of Claire keeping him with her. I think that somehow he managed to make it to the island and because of his age did some time hopping himself. After all, he looks like he's roughly fifteen and he was born in the first season which makes him about five in linear time.

But I wonder if anybody noticed this, but in the alternate story line when Claire was giving birth to Aaron, I believe the doctor was the one who said his name before anybody else. 

And if you noticed, the smoke-Locke somehow managed to take on Locke's mannerisms to the tee. After all, he got really angry when he was told what he couldn't do and yelled "Don't you tell me what I can and can not do" So there is a lot more to that smoke-Locke that needs to be revealed.

But by my way of thinking I am beginning to think that the island is a prison of some sort. I think that the smoke being did some sort of crime and is possibly incapable of understanding what he did so is imprisoned here. However, this remains to be seen.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Feb 17, 2010)

I understand things are going to start dividing up into a "good guys" team and a "bad guys" team. Sawyer is obviously the first recruit to what (I assume) will be the bad guy team. It might be interesting to speculate on what the team line ups will end up being.

So far, bad guys have Flocke and Sawyer.

Good guys? Hm. Jack in all likelihood. Hurley, definitely.

Kate and Sayid are on the bubble, I'd say. Who else goes where? I'll bet after all is said and done, Ben winds up as a good guy.


----------



## Shayuri (Feb 19, 2010)

Ben strikes me as a Gollum. A completely selfish guy who is used as a tool by the bad guy, but who betrays the bad guy in the end for the same motivations that he was originally used for...selfishness. A tool, in other words, that turns in its master's hand.

But then again, his eulogy for Locke seemed repentant. We'll see.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Feb 19, 2010)

It's interesting to think about the other relationship Ben and Locke might have had, in that other reality. I wonder if Island Ben will discover that he was good friends with alternate reality Locke at some point.


----------



## Quantum (Feb 21, 2010)

Did anybody catch the mistake in "The Substitute?" 



Hurley parked so close to Locke's van that he couldn't have gotten out in the first place.


----------



## Mark (Feb 21, 2010)

Quantum said:


> Did anybody catch the mistake in "The Substitute?"
> 
> 
> 
> Hurley parked so close to Locke's van that he couldn't have gotten out in the first place.





I assumed Hurley arrived after Locke.


----------



## David Howery (Feb 21, 2010)

okay, for the big question:  Just what the heck are Jacob and Smokey?  Aliens?  Gods?  Alien gods?  Psychic masters of time, space, and dimension?


----------



## fba827 (Feb 21, 2010)

Quantum said:


> I think that kid is Aaron who will replace Jacob.




I like this theory.  (Note that Aaron as a baby has always had distinctly blond hair and blue eyes just like that kid did)



Quantum said:


> But I wonder if anybody noticed this, but in the alternate story line when Claire was giving birth to Aaron, I believe the doctor was the one who said his name before anybody else.




Well, Claire said it first.  When there was a problem with the vital signs, she screams out "What's wrong with Aaron?!" (or something like that).  It isn't mentioned again until the birth itself when the Doctor (who was "Ethan" from the Others in Season 1) says the name, and then later Claire and Kate talk about how it's a nice name and how it just came to her.



Quantum said:


> But by my way of thinking I am beginning to think that the island is a prison of some sort. I think that the smoke being did some sort of crime and is possibly incapable of understanding what he did so is imprisoned here. However, this remains to be seen.




That is my theory as well.  He's there, the island is a prison.  Jacob is there as a guardian to keep him there under control.  How the time travel, healing waters that generated the need for a temple, and electromaginetic fields play in to the island itself, I don't know.



David Howery said:


> okay, for the big question:  Just what the heck are Jacob and Smokey?  Aliens?  Gods?  Alien gods?  Psychic masters of time, space, and dimension?




Well Smoke-Locke alludes to the fact that he was once a man like Sawyer. And the fact that Jacob is recruiting for a replacement from people who are regular humans, suggests that Jacob was once a regular man too (how else could another human replace him?).

Thus, both Smoke and Jacob are most likely human in origin.  And it was the island that somehow made them something more...

Is it was just a smoke monster of natural instinct and chaos, it would not care about "the rules" yet it was distinctly annoyed when he was reminded that "you know the rules, you can't kill him..."   if he was just a natural beast he probably wouldn't be worried about rules.


----------



## Quantum (Feb 21, 2010)

A funny coincidence?

the Man In Black was also the nickname of a famous country singer.

His name was Johnny Cash.

One of his hit songs was called....

Ring Of Fire.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It7107ELQvY[/ame]


Hmmmmm....

Maybe the whole series is a disguised dedication to this man?


----------



## Jack7 (Feb 24, 2010)

I liked the Pharos.

I liked the fact that the machinery degrees matched the numbers and the names of the characters. I liked the fact that the reflecting mirror (the looking glass) truly "reflected."

I liked the story with Jack and his son.
This was a basically quiet but very good episode.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Feb 24, 2010)

Looks like Team Evil is busy recruiting. Right now, my head count is as follows:

Team Good: Jack, Hurley, Richard.
Team Evil: Flocke, Sawyer, Claire (soon, I suspect, to be joined by Sayid).
On the bubble: Sun, Jin, Kate, Lappidas, Ben, Miles.
X-Factors: The Others, Desmond, Dharma, Whidmore, Rose and Bernard.

I'm sure I'm leaving a lot out.

I've gotta think that Kate will end up on Team Good, as will Lappidas and Miles (though I have my doubts about him). While Sun and Jin should wind up on Team Good together, I can easily imagine their story being a tragic one where they're pitted against one another.


----------



## Angellis_ater (Feb 24, 2010)

Well, the Others seem to be going "out of the picture" with Claire and War-Locke getting into the Temple. By all signs, the Others seem to be very much the "followers" of Jacob, his personal retinue, or bodyguards. I think it was established in the Season 4 finale, with Jacob and Evil dude sitting on the beach as a ship was drawing closer, that Jacob hinted at him drawing his flock from the pure amongst them...


----------



## David Howery (Feb 24, 2010)

nice to see Claire back... even dirty and disheveled and generally beat up, she's still the cutest one on the island...


----------



## Mark (Feb 24, 2010)

Good times.


----------



## Demmero (Feb 24, 2010)

David Howery said:


> nice to see Claire back... even dirty and disheveled and generally beat up, she's still the cutest one on the island...




Well, if I can have Kate I'll give ya Claire   

I find it very interesting that Claire has seemingly stepped into Rousseau's old boots as the crazy survivalist lady trying to get her missing baby back from the Others.

Some points/questions/parallels I've got:

Rousseau's electric torturing of Sayid was similar to what Dojan did to the Iraqi in the temple. Was Rousseau simply torturing Sayid to tell her where Alex was or might she also have been testing him for "infection?"

Might Rousseau have been infected herself? Claire is part of Team Man-in-Black; might Rousseau have held that position previously? I've got no solid evidence for this, just a few strange actions that Rousseau did that seem a bit off. She seemed to often lead or manipulate the Losties without getting fully involved (the mission to the communications Dharma station--the Flame--sticks out to me...Rousseau disappeared into the jungle and let the castaways do all the work). And when she captured Ben--the man who took her Alex at gunpoint--she doesn't torture him herself for answers but instead turns him over to Sayid and the Losties??!! That doesn't seem believable to me...unless she was under orders (MiB?) to do so. It almost seems like Rousseau (or perhaps whoever's pulling her strings) knows that many of the Losties are "Candidates" and can't get too directly involved in what they're doing.


----------



## RangerWickett (Feb 24, 2010)

So who do you think is Jack's son's mom? 

The kid looks like he's 10-14, so at latest he was born in 1994. I suppose he could be adopted, but that's less fun. What timeline alterations would lead to Jack marrying someone in the mid-90s (in the original timeline he got married in 2001).

My theory? Jack and Juliet hook up, have a kid, and then she leaves him for Sawyer. Without the influence of Jacob in the sideways timeline, James Ford is a nicer guy. Still doesn't explain why Juliet would meet up with Jack, though. Hm.


----------



## fba827 (Feb 24, 2010)

RangerWickett said:


> So who do you think is Jack's son's mom?
> 
> The kid looks like he's 10-14, so at latest he was born in 1994. I suppose he could be adopted, but that's less fun. What timeline alterations would lead to Jack marrying someone in the mid-90s (in the original timeline he got married in 2001).
> 
> My theory? Jack and Juliet hook up, have a kid, and then she leaves him for Sawyer. Without the influence of Jacob in the sideways timeline, James Ford is a nicer guy. Still doesn't explain why Juliet would meet up with Jack, though. Hm.




Disclaimer: I missed some of the middle seasons so I may just be way off base here

Having said, didn't we already know that Jack had a wife/stable marriage before?  I just assumed (because of his age) that the son was from his then-wife... any alt-timeline stories would have only progressed within the past 5 years since the plane would have landed so the son is way too old for that unless it's some past time travel event.


----------



## Man in the Funny Hat (Feb 25, 2010)

Jack was married briefly to Sarah, a woman paralyzed in a car accident whom Jack swore to "fix".  I assume in the alternate timeline she and Jack remained married long enough to have a son but that their marraige still fell apart.


----------



## Mark (Feb 25, 2010)

I got the impression that her accident, the operation, and their marriage happened not so long back that they could have had such an old son.  And I thought Jacob only came to Jack after the operation.  I think, though they have now added that Jack must have been watched since he lived in his childhood home, that he must have met someone else (or met Sarah much early) for what they are now claiming is Jack's alternate life.


*edit* The actress playing Kate is too young to have had a baby now the age of Jack's son, so I don't think the writers would try to push that agenda, but both Sarah and Juliet would be about right.  Thinking outside the box a little, Libby is also about the right age, as is Penny, and Cassidy Phillips (and interesting twist there).  But likely enough they'll go with Juliet as Jack's Baby Mommy.


----------



## RangerWickett (Feb 25, 2010)

Is it too much to ask to bring back Nikki and Paulo?

Oh, and I hope we get to see Danielle in the flash sideways, though they couldn't use the same actress for Alex, since she's got to be around 20 now.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Feb 25, 2010)

Mark said:


> But likely enough they'll go with Juliet as Jack's Baby Mommy.




I doubt this, but the irony would be grand -- Jack takes Sawyer's love from him on the Island by trying to blow it up, and then takes it from him in the alt-verse by falling in love with her himself.

And I do remember all the mooney looks that Jack was giving Juliet when she first arrived on the scene (is there a rule that Jack and Sawyer have to love the same women?), so it's possible.

Also, crazy idea -- the skeletons in the cave: Rose and Bernard?


----------



## RangerWickett (Feb 25, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> Also, crazy idea -- the skeletons in the cave: Rose and Bernard?





Crazier idea -- Amelia Earhart and her buddy.

Craziest idea -- Walt and an arctic druidess who had polar bear animal companions.

I really want the last episode of Lost, when they cut to the LOST logo, to instead say 


WALT​


----------



## Mark (Feb 25, 2010)

Craziesterest = Paternomytosis


----------



## RigaMortus2 (Feb 25, 2010)

What is the island?  Read article (no, it doesn't give you any spoilers or answers, just hints...)

Lost Redux: Want to Know What the Island Is? - E! Online

So, "what is the island?"  The hints are:


A four letter word describes it...
No "A" or "E" in the word...
Only one vowel...
The island has to exist...
The island is important to the outside world...


Is the island... LOST?  If so, what does that mean?


----------



## LightPhoenix (Feb 25, 2010)

Continuing with my theory (flash-sideways are actually the ending), I'd guess David is Jack's son with his ex (Sarah, I think).  The reset isn't enough to completely fix Jack's marriage (unlike Locke/Helen) but it's enough that they have a son.

Incidentally, if the Candidate does stay behind to become the new Jacob, chances are it's not Jack or Kate (whose name wasn't crossed out on the dial).  Assuming there's no other possibilities, that leaves Sayid (chances are no, if he's infected), Jin* (also not likely, given Sun), Hurley, and Sawyer.

* In Korea, women usually don't take the man's name.  Assuming the writers did basic research (ehhh) then Kwon refers to Jin, or possibly their daughter.


----------



## Mark (Feb 26, 2010)

LightPhoenix said:


> Incidentally, if the Candidate does stay behind to become the new Jacob, chances are it's (. . .) Hurley





It's kinda a DMing job, and who better than Hurley?


----------



## David Howery (Feb 28, 2010)

Demmero said:


> Well, if I can have Kate I'll give ya Claire
> .




Deal!  Okay, now who's going to give Lilly and Emily the bad news...


----------



## Jack7 (Mar 1, 2010)

> War-Locke




Did you come up with that?
_I like it_. It made me laugh.

I have my own theory on who David's mother is.


----------



## dravot (Mar 1, 2010)

LightPhoenix said:


> Continuing with my theory (flash-sideways are actually the ending), I'd guess David is Jack's son with his ex (Sarah, I think).  The reset isn't enough to completely fix Jack's marriage (unlike Locke/Helen) but it's enough that they have a son.




My impression is that Jack and Sarah's marriage would have been too recent to have a kid as old as David.  In the Sideways, they'd have to have been married further into the past.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Mar 3, 2010)

Well, team evil is shaping up nicely with the show's major bada**es. By the last scene, it was clear that Sayid had embraced his dark side completely, accepting that he is, in fact, pretty evil, despite all of his protestations to the contrary. It's interesting that he doesn't seem to escape that fate in the alt-verse either.

On the other hand, it was good to see Keemy get killed again.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Mar 3, 2010)

Sayid episodes are always good for some interesting moral questions (unlike Jack or Kate or Kwons).  This one did not disappoint.

You know you are evil when _Ben Linus_ looks at you and says "nope, he's gone."  I suspect this means we can also officially remove Sayid from the list of candidates.

Aside from Sayid, my favorite part was Alana's "strike team".  I wasn't expecting it at all, so when they showed up, it was pretty cool.


----------



## Mark (Mar 3, 2010)

Sadly, with the separation of Linus from the other survivors (Miles and company) it seems to set up a sort of redemption scenario, ALA Gollum.  We'll see how it shakes out but I'm getting a bad feeling about how they might bring things full circle to tie up the loose ends.


----------



## David Howery (Mar 3, 2010)

man, Claire has gone completely around the bend.  You'd think she'd be happy that her child was off the island, safe and secure.  You'd also think Kate would mention that the kid is with Claire's mom, too.... 
One of the most annoying things about this show is that the main characters never seem to ask the obvious questions when they have the chance.  I mean, they're stuck in that temple with the Others for hours and hours, and never once does anyone ask, "Okay, just who are you people?  Where did you come from?  Who are Jacob and Smokey?"  Only Sayid managed to ask 'Locke' "What are you?", and never really got an answer.  If it had been me, I'd have interrupted him and said "No, really, just what the hell are you?"


----------



## Remus Lupin (Mar 3, 2010)

Yes, Claire has gone the full evil.

Although, I was thinking about this earlier today. As I look at how the Locke/Jack teams are shaping up, it occurred to me, that if I knew in season 1 that there would be a show down in the end between "good" losties and "evil" losties, and was asked, about midway through the first season, to pick who would be on which team, I would have more or less gone with the way things are shaping up. Obviously, there are some wild cards. We don't yet know where Jin or Kate will wind up, though they're both with Flocke. And Ben is in the end likely to be out for himself, though it looks like he may not last till the very end anyway.

NB., Claire is a notable exception to my thesis.


----------



## Felon (Mar 4, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> Well, team evil is shaping up nicely with the show's major bada**es. By the last scene, it was clear that Sayid had embraced his dark side completely, accepting that he is, in fact, pretty evil, despite all of his protestations to the contrary. It's interesting that he doesn't seem to escape that fate in the alt-verse either.
> 
> On the other hand, it was good to see Keemy get killed again.





Remus Lupin said:


> Yes, Claire has gone the full evil.
> 
> Although, I was thinking about this earlier today. As I look at how the Locke/Jack teams are shaping up, it occurred to me, that if I knew in season 1 that there would be a show down in the end between "good" losties and "evil" losties, and was asked, about midway through the first season, to pick who would be on which team, I would have more or less gone with the way things are shaping up. Obviously, there are some wild cards. We don't yet know where Jin or Kate will wind up, though they're both with Flocke. And Ben is in the end likely to be out for himself, though it looks like he may not last till the very end anyway.
> 
> NB., Claire is a notable exception to my thesis.



OK, I'm callin' it now. Team Evil is actually Team Good. Jacob is the real bad guy and Smokey is the closest thing to a savior around. 

Note that when Dogen tells Sayid that the torture machine measured good and evil, he says that Sayid's "tipped the wrong way". We naturally assume that means evil, but have no real reason to do so. Dogen was perfectly content to give an order to kill Jack and company in cold blood when they initially came to the temple, and then did a few other sinister things afterwards, so why should we be so quick to paint him as a good guy?


----------



## Remus Lupin (Mar 4, 2010)

I'm open to that possibility, but I'm not yet convinced, for a few reasons:

1. It just smacks of cheap irony. It's just too easy to say, "see, we'll make it seem like they're evil, but they're REALLY GOOD!

2. Hurley.

3. Flocke's offer to Sayid was straight out of the New Testament: Fall down and worship me and all of these things will be yours."

4. While I'm not going to go so far as to say that Jacob was good or has acted good, and certainly I wouldn't say his followers have, there seems to be a clear moral distinction between Jacob and his behavior towards both his followers and his enemies, and Smokey. Jacob has never acted in a wrathful or violent way, has never sought revenge, and has put people into a position to make decisions (albeit often manipulated by Jacob) for themselves. Smokey has repeatedly killed, threatened, directly coerced, lied, etc.

5. Look who is now on Flocke's team: Con-artist-murderer Sawyer, torturer-murderer Sayid, thief-murderer Kate, crazy woman murderer Claire, mob go-between Jin.

6. Look who's on Jacob's team: Doctor Jack, all around decent guy Hurley, mother/nurturer Sun, unknown quantities Lapidas and Miles, and multiple murderer Ben. Plus the members of team jacob that came on the plane, plus, by all appearances, Richard. Now, I may be missing something. I didn't watch the show religiously for a good chunk of its run, by I don't recall any of these characters intentionally killing someone, except for Ben, maybe Richard, and the plane people. But of the core characters, the candidates, none have blood on their hands.

Now, the teams may change up over the course of the coming episodes, and I think it's highly likely that Kate and Jin will switch teams. But when you look at the moral quality of these two groups of people, is it really hard to pick which are the bad guys?


----------



## Fast Learner (Mar 4, 2010)

Smokey's behavior -- cruising around and killing people -- hardly seems like it could be considered good. Even if by some chance all the people we see him kill recently are long-time bad-guy islanders, how about the original pilot and other miscellaneous early survivors. 

I don't know that Jacob's good, but it'll be damned hard to convince me that Smokey is.


----------



## Demmero (Mar 4, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> 6. Look who's on Jacob's team: Doctor Jack, all around decent guy Hurley, mother/nurturer Sun, unknown quantities Lapidas and Miles, and multiple murderer Ben. Plus the members of team jacob that came on the plane, plus, by all appearances, Richard. Now, I may be missing something. I didn't watch the show religiously for a good chunk of its run, by I don't recall any of these characters intentionally killing someone, except for Ben, maybe Richard, and the plane people. But of the core characters, the candidates, none have blood on their hands.




Technically, Sun shot and killed that Other woman who tried to hijack Desmond's sailboat while she was hiding on it (Season...3?). And in Season 1, it was strongly implied that Jack finished the job after Sawyer's horrifically failed attempt to shoot the marshall and put him out of his misery. So those two have a bit of blood on their hands...they just haven't been shown to be cold-blooded murderers.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Mar 4, 2010)

Demmero said:


> Technically, Sun shot and killed that Other woman who tried to hijack Desmond's sailboat while she was hiding on it (Season...3?). And in Season 1, it was strongly implied that Jack finished the job after Sawyer's horrifically failed attempt to shoot the marshall and put him out of his misery. So those two have a bit of blood on their hands...they just haven't been shown to be cold-blooded murderers.




Ok, point taken, but I do think "cold blooded" enters into the equation here. There's a substantial moral difference between Jack at his worst, and Sayid.


----------



## Demmero (Mar 4, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> Ok, point taken, but I do think "cold blooded" enters into the equation here. There's a substantial moral difference between Jack at his worst, and Sayid.




Yes, absolutely. Just as there's a less substantial difference between killing in self-defense (Sun), a mercy killing (Jack), and feeling responsible for deaths that you may or may not have caused accidentally (Hurley's collapsed balcony incident that landed him in the loony bin). But there ARE subtle differences, and these may come into play in the weird little game that Jacob and the Man in Black seem to be playing in regards to which candidate will take over guardianship of the island.


----------



## RangerWickett (Mar 4, 2010)

At this point, I don't really care for either Jacob or Smokey. I'm actually slightly more fond of Smokey because he's got better style. Jacob's just boring as all get out. "I am yet another mysterious figure on this island who will not answer any of your questions."

I'm running a game inspired by Lost, with players who never saw the show, taking the roles of Kate, Jack, Sawyer, and Sayid. When they encounter Others, I assume they will ask questions. And I won't play to form and have the Others be evasive, because I still have no idea _why_ the Others are so stingy with information.

Seriously, what benefit did the Others gain by being deceptive for so long? It's becoming apparent that

a) the Others work for Jacob,
b) Jacob has some *plan* that involves candidates,
c) the Others weren't supposed to hurt the candidates.

But I just don't get the logic of these people. Did they want the crash survivors off the island? Why not just kill them with all those guns they have, and just be sure to spare the ones on Jacob's list?

Did they want the candidates to trust Jacob and help protect the island? Well then why didn't they go to Jack and explain the situation that this is a magical ****ing island, and that . . . I dunno, the world will end if bad guys get on it? They could make a big to-do of letting people who aren't on Jacob's list onto the submarine, and then just kill them all with some of the handy nerve gas they've got.

It doesn't hold together.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Mar 4, 2010)

RW, you're just no fun!


----------



## Felon (Mar 5, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> I'm open to that possibility, but I'm not yet convinced, for a few reasons:
> 
> 1. It just smacks of cheap irony. It's just too easy to say, "see, we'll make it seem like they're evil, but they're REALLY GOOD!
> 
> ...



We've seen cheap irony before.

The only survivors decidedly on Jacob's team are Hurley and Jack, both of whom are huge suckers easily manipulated by their good intentions and sloppy emotions (Hurley's meekness and Jack's tantrums). Then you have Sawyer, Kate, and Sayid, who see people for what they are, making them of no use to Jacob. 

Ben isn't on anyone's team right now. Killing Jacob kind of takes him off that team, and Smokey has washed his hands of him.

Claire I never got. Never understood how she can have fans. Someone once posted in this forum "I love Claire", and I remember shaking my head and furrowing my brow as I read it. She's always been a whiny, useless, selfish pig. She certainly took poor Charlie's devotion completely for granted. And now she's ticked off at Kate for spending all those years babysitting her kid while she was awol. Vintage Claire. Horrible, annoying person. 

Jacob and Richard were behind the Dharma poison-gas massacre. Dogen and those who came before him had no problems with killing in cold blood.


----------



## Felon (Mar 5, 2010)

RangerWickett said:


> But I just don't get the logic of these people. Did they want the crash survivors off the island? Why not just kill them with all those guns they have, and just be sure to spare the ones on Jacob's list?



The Otherse were in fact trying to abduct all of the people who were on the list, and kill the rest. Goodwin specifically indicated this to Anna Lucia before trying to murder her. Your suggestion that they simply storm the survivor camp and "just be sure" not to kill any candidates with all the bullets sprayed around during the massacre strikes me as a less-than-foolproof plan. It's not like they even had pictures to work with, just a list of names. I'm going to have to say that sending infiltrators in (Ethan and Goodwin) and then grabbing confirmed candidates with surgical strikes is about as good of a plan as that.

Now, perhaps a better plan for the Others would have been to just come forward and offer help. Maybe initially they just didn't know enough about what had happened to take the risk of exposure. Whidmore's been trying to kill them for a long time, after all.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Mar 5, 2010)

I think it's worth bearing in mind that a lot of the activities performed by the Others under Ben's watch can't reasonably be understood to come from Jacob, since Ben never had direct contact with Jacob, and we don't know everything yet about what kind of an intermediary Richard was, and to what degree Ben acted on his own.

That said, I'm happy to concede that the Others, at least as we've come to know them, can be ruthless and merciless and "protecting" the island. However, most of the others don't qualify as protagonists on this show. And when you look at the protagonists, the breakdown between "good guy" and "bad guy" is clear in many of the cases we've discussed, with a few marginal cases that remain to be resolved.

By the way, i'd say that in the case of Sawyer and Sayid, their stories are really tragedies: Men with the potential to be good, who became evil largely as a matter of circumstance, who then had a shot at redemption, which they blew, largely as a matter of circumstance.


----------



## RangerWickett (Mar 5, 2010)

Is the show trying to say Sayid and Sawyer are evil? I'm not buying it.

Sawyer definitely not. Ever since the middle of season 2 he's been pretty solidly a good guy, even though he hates himself and occasionally has vengeance issues. But he has never once since then tried to hurt others who hadn't already displayed themselves a threat. He has actively worked to protect people. 

Bear in mind, I reject a large majority of stuff that happened in season 5, which felt to me like it was shoddily composed.

In particular, I found Sawyer's actions in the season 5 finale, with the whole "Let's drive in and shoot all these people I'm friends with" to be a horrible cop out by the writing staff, because it flew in the face of how Sawyer had been characterized for the entire rest of the show. And let's not forget Juliet's laughable "I saw you glance at Kate and despite us having been in love for several years now, I'm going to throw it all away and try to alter reality instead of suggesting we see a relationship counselor."

Are they trying to say now that Sawyer is a villain, just because he decided to tag along with Smokey? Just because he decided that, for once, it would be nice to get at least _some_ answers about what this island is?


And Sayid? In what way is Sayid evil?

Sure, he has blood on his hands, but he always acted out of a desire to protect people. He was deceived by Ben, an issue he later tried to rectify by, quite reasonably in my opinion, shooting the hell out of Ben as a child. 

Since then, what has he done? He killed Dogen and Lennon, and let Smokey into the temple to kill more Others. These same Others attacked and murdered innocent people and never showed any remorse or tried to provide a justification for why they did all those things. From Sayid's perspective, the Others are outright dangerous, and he was protecting his friends.


----------



## Atavar (Mar 5, 2010)

Sawyer is on the Jacob team...he's just the only one who knows it so far.  He's pulling the ultimate Long Con on Smokey (or Un-Locke, or War-Locke, or the Locke-ness Monster, or whatever it is you choose to call him).

I didn't come up with this theory on my own, but I do find it quite interesting.

Later,

Atavar


----------



## Fast Learner (Mar 5, 2010)

Great thinking on someone's part, the long con makes perfect sense.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Mar 5, 2010)

Atavar said:


> Sawyer is on the Jacob team...he's just the only one who knows it so far.  He's pulling the ultimate Long Con on Smokey (or Un-Locke, or War-Locke, or the Locke-ness Monster, or whatever it is you choose to call him).
> 
> I didn't come up with this theory on my own, but I do find it quite interesting.
> 
> ...




This is a good thought, and I like it. It would certainly fit with Sawyer's character to attempt to deceive the deceiver.

But, in the case of both Sawyer and Sayid, I think they're acting from despair. They both had some hope of redemption, but it was lost when they lost those they loved.

As for "how was Sayid evil?" Well, he tortured people for the Iraqi government, which counts as evil in my book. And even if you grant that Sayid was justified in committing murder to protect his fellow islanders in his collusion with Ben (something about that still needs explaining; where's Whidmore this season, anyway?), it's still cold blooded murder. Finally, whatever Ben may have become as an adult, he was not that when Sayid shot him, and there's a very good argument to be made that Sayid's attempt to kill Ben is what made him into what he became.


----------



## Shayuri (Mar 6, 2010)

I just want to say too that 'good' and 'evil' are being thrown around in this discussion as if they're states of being. That is, you're good, or you're evil, in much the same way you're alive or dead.

But good and evil are really descriptions of decisions and actions. 

Sawyer, to my understanding, has thrown in with Flocke because he wants off this island...he wants to wash his hands of it. All it's given him, in the end, is misery. He doesn't know who or what Flocke is, or what the cost of his decision will be. But his choice was not evil...just self-serving. He doesn't want to hurt anyone, but it's unclear if he really -cares- if his decision will hurt anyone either.

Sayid's another matter. He took his time making up his mind, and showed the Others in the temple _extraordinary_ patience and gave them the benefit of the doubt...most likely because he's seen and experienced a lot of truly effed up stuff on that island, and their claims could not therefore be simply dismissed out of hand. In the end, Flocke's offer to restore to him the only thing he ever really loved was too much temptation. His choice was different than Sawyer's. His choice was, I believe demonstratably evil, including full foreknowledge of its consequences. Does that make Sayid evil? Of course not. The problem of course is that Sayid himself believes otherwise, and that belief is corrosive to one's conscience and sense of self-direction...things that encourage non-evil decisions. It's likely Sayid will get worse before he gets better...

As for the taciturnity of the Others, and Jacob, I can offer one possible explanation. Lost is a story that involves, among other things, time travel. Not only that, but it explores the idea of small perturbations in personal histories creating 'butterfly effects' that lead to certain, seemingly coincidental, but utterly critical events taking place. Jacob is tampering with the Losties pasts, and presents, to create a future. The trick is that a person who knows he's being manipulated will naturally try to resist it. Further, someone who has awareness of the future can easily change it by reacting to it in the present in ways that negate it. Witness The Lighthouse, where Jacob wanted Jack to smash the mirrors. He could have told Hurley, "Tell Jack to go up and smash the mirrors." Would that have worked? I don't think so. Jack's at a stage where he mistrusts things that friends hear disembodied spirits tell him.  He'd want to know WHY Jacob wants them smashed. His reaction to them would have been different. His attitude going forward would have been different.

We can discuss the morality of what Jacob's doing...he's most definitely using people to accomplish ends that we know nothing about. At best he can be said to have a sort of 'big picture' view, where deaths and personal tragedies are regrettable, but unavoidable, and that he weaves them into the tapestry of the future he's trying to create with no actual malice but rather a pragmatic understanding of human nature. Or, his facade of calm could hide an alien, amoral being with no regard for human life or dignity as he dances them like puppets to achieve his ends. Either way strikes me as a legitimate viewpoint at this stage of the show's narrative. But either way, Jacob has substantial reason not to tell anyone "too much." 

As for the Others, I think they're tight lipped for several reasons. One, I think in many cases _they don't know._ I doubt Jacob's anymore forthcoming with them than he is with anyone else. They may know SOME about what Locke is...enough to recognize him and to try to protect themselves, but I doubt they really understand his true nature. The leader may be an exception to that, but... Two, they try to emulate Jacob. That is, he's enigmatic, so they try to be too. I also think the Others, being human, probably have succumbed to human weaknesses like pride and vanity, and they don't want to share what they know with people who haven't _earned_ it like they have. They'd resent "candidates" like Hurley that just declare themselves out of the blue. Who does he think he is? And of course, the Others never really trusted any of the Losties...who knew if they were part of some scheme from Flocke? 

And that's just the Temple Others. The "other" Others, the ones outside that Ben used to lead...they're even farther removed, and have in fact been under the sway of Smokey for the duration of the show. It's no shock to me that they're just as paranoid and unforthcoming. 

But yeah, the Others, all of them, seem to see themselves as special, as a chosen people who are guarding something that everyone will want if they ever find it. They have that kind of siege mentality, where everyone's viewed as an enemy.

And since Jacob let it go on, even while he was alive, it's probably part of his plan...or at least not destructive to his plan. Smokey did warn him, after all, that bringing humans to the island would result in bloodshed. Smart man.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Mar 6, 2010)

Well, I certainly didn't mean to imply that I understood good and evil to be immutable states of being. Quite the contrary, I'm arguing that it is the actions of the characters that define their status.

However, I do think it's important to qualify that I"m talking here about the protagonists: Locke (or now, Flocke or whatever you want to call him), Sawyer, Sayid, Claire quite clearly, based on their actions, fall into a different moral category than Jack, Hurley, Miles, and Sun.

As I say, there's still room for movement, and I certainly hope that some, if not all, of those on Flocke's side move back over to Jacob's side before the end.

However, it's certainly true that Jacob and the Others can't be understood to be "good" in any plain vanilla sense of the word. At best, their actions and motivations are complex. Ben and Richard are the two most fully developed characters in this regard, with Ben being clearly (again, based on his actions) evil and Richard being, at best, ambiguous.

So, while we can't conclude that Jacob's "side" is, per se, good, I think it's clear that the "good" characters are lining up with Jacob, and the "evil" characters are lining up with Smokey. Smokey is clearly being set up to be the Satan/tempter figure in all of this, and Jacob is being set up to be, if not the "God" figure, than certainly the puppet master.

One might think that the book of Job would have something to say about all of this.


----------



## Shayuri (Mar 7, 2010)

Oh, I agree with that analysis, and I was talking in a more general sense, not replying to you specifically. 

My personal opinion right now is that Jacob is a "good guy" in a difficult position, balancing the consequences of failure against the moral quandries required to succeed as best he can. As such, the characters who are more likely to be swayed by moral/ethical arguments (the 'good' ones) seem more likely to align to Jacob's cause. The characters who are more inclined to be self serving, or self-interested appear to be hooking up to Smokey...in no small part due to Smokey's skill as a tempter.

What that all MEANS is yet to be determined. Why Smokey needs or wants Losties on his 'team' is hard to say as, unlike Jacob, he appears to have a significant amount of personal power that he uses fairly freely.

It makes for entertaining viewing though, which is really the most important thing.


----------



## Felon (Mar 7, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> And when you look at the protagonists, the breakdown between "good guy" and "bad guy" is clear in many of the cases we've discussed, with a few marginal cases that remain to be resolved.



It's only clear if you apply the rather jejune notions of "good guy" and "bad guy" that tend to get applied to characters in jejune fiction, and I don't think of Lost as such. Sayid and Sawyer are not evil in my opinion. They both are capable of ruthlessness, so put them in a situation with no good options, and they'll do something we'll call evil. In that same situation, Jack or Hurley would refuse to do something "wrong" even if they and other people they care about would suffer as a result. Jack rolling on his father, for instance. 

Hollywood teaches that exemplars of uncompromising righteousness are to be admired, but I'm old enough to know that's pretty much bullcrap. When I watch Gladiator, I don't think Maximus should be admired for adopting an inflexible attitude that cost him, his family, and his friends their lives. All he had to do was hug Claudius, ask for a raise, and then go rally his forces. But nooo.......

I think J.J. Abrahms wrote Jack and Sawyer as two daamged men who try to better themselves. When the people they care about are in danger, they put their lives on the line, even though they don't have any rosy notions about morality. That's a kind of heroism that I can admire.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Mar 8, 2010)

Well, look. I think I've laid out my case for what's going on in detail. I don't feel the need to justify it to you any further. I agree that all the characters are morally compromised to one degree or another, but I do think that there is a clear moral difference between "guilt-wracked pill-popping doctor with daddy issues" and "Iraqi torturer who shoots children." If you view that as jejune, so be it. In the end, it's a story someone is telling us. We're just trying to guess the ending and its meaning.


----------



## catsclaw227 (Mar 9, 2010)

I am starting to believe that Jacob and Flocke are acutally two guys playing Sims.   And the people and the island are the Sims.  Maybe they have been playing a long time, over eons, but the sims are self-aware, but not of their ultimate nature, that of being Sims.

They have been working to "do stuff", but Jacob and Flocke can manifest themselves as "commands" that the sims have a % chance of resisting or not.  All throughout the series, the main characters have been dragged along a winding course of action through circumstances that are sometimes absurd, but connected.   

Lost = Sims.  You heard it here.


----------



## Megaton (Mar 9, 2010)

catsclaw227 said:


> I am starting to believe that Jacob and Flocke are acutally two guys playing Sims.   And the people and the island are the Sims.  Maybe they have been playing a long time, over eons, but the sims are self-aware, but not of their ultimate nature, that of being Sims.
> 
> They have been working to "do stuff", but Jacob and Flocke can manifest themselves as "commands" that the sims have a % chance of resisting or not.  All throughout the series, the main characters have been dragged along a winding course of action through circumstances that are sometimes absurd, but connected.
> 
> Lost = Sims.  You heard it here.



I've been getting that impression too. Sort of seems like Flocke and Jacob and just gods who have taken over bodies ala The Iliad and are just kind of playing around for fun on earth. 

Or this is going to be a fate vs. choice thing with each of them picking a side, or perhaps a science vs. faith.


----------



## catsclaw227 (Mar 10, 2010)

The thing is, now I recall somewhere that the writers have said that the island is "something" it is a four letter word and it doesn't have an "a" or "e".

It is Sims Island.


----------



## Mark (Mar 10, 2010)

Cheese Curds!


----------



## Jack7 (Mar 10, 2010)

Does anybody rebroadcast _Lost_, and if so who, and when?

I remember  a couple of years back G4 and the Sci-Fi channel both rebroadcast Lost episodes. Anyone do that now.

Been real busy lately and I've just found out my squadron has to undergo training every Tuesday evening for about two months starting in April.

Meaning I'll miss Lost as I got rid of my VCR a coupla years back cause it's outdated technology. And since I watch so little TV I don't have a recording device built into my satellite receiver. I've been thinking about getting a new satellite receiver with TIVO or some such thing but since I watch so little TV I haven't felt really compelled to do it yet. I will to avoid missing Lost, but if someone else rebroadcasts it then I won't bother unless my wife and kids want me to, though they'll be able to see it.

I can wait till it comes out on DVD and buy it, but I'd rather see it sooner than later.

I know I could get the new receiver, but to tell you the truth TV is so low on my list of priorities, and so few shows really interest me, and I have so many other things to concentrate upon, that I'd rather not bother if there's is an effective work-around that doesn't require much effort on my part.


----------



## fba827 (Mar 10, 2010)

Jack7 said:


> Does anybody rebroadcast _Lost_, and if so who, and when?
> 
> I remember  a couple of years back G4 and the Sci-Fi channel both rebroadcast Lost episodes. Anyone do that now.
> 
> ...




I don't know about tv schedules, but if you're willing to watch it online

Lost - Full Episodes and Clips streaming online for free - Hulu

It has all the old season episodes available for another few months.
And from the current season, it keeps the most recent 5 episodes available.

Hulu is legal and free (they show 30 second commercials in the normal commercial breaks).  Though there is talk that eventually hulu will charge a subscription, at least for now, as said, it is free.


----------



## Jack7 (Mar 10, 2010)

> I don't know about tv schedules, but if you're willing to watch it online
> 
> Lost - Full Episodes and Clips streaming online for free - Hulu
> 
> ...




That's a good idea, and I remembered somebody mentioning it to me before (mighta been you), but I couldn't recall the details. Unfortunately we live too far out in the country to get high-speed internet (maybe Hughesnet but I've seen it in operation and wasn't much impressed) but now Verizon is offering me a card and router set up to my three home computers that may let me run through their system. If that works out then I may go your route. I appreciate the idea and am gonna keep it in the back of my mind.


----------



## fba827 (Mar 10, 2010)

Jack7 said:


> That's a good idea, and I remembered somebody mentioning it to me before (mighta been you), but I couldn't recall the details. Unfortunately we live too far out in the country to get high-speed internet (maybe Hughesnet but I've seen it in operation and wasn't much impressed) but now Verizon is offering me a card and router set up to my three home computers that may let me run through their system. If that works out then I may go your route. I appreciate the idea and am gonna keep it in the back of my mind.




Yahoo's TV shows all upcoming episodes of a given show.
Lost Television show - Lost TV Show - Yahoo! TV   (that should show you upcoming episodes for Lost - though, it's not the easiest list to understand in terms of what's a recent episode and what's an older episode unless you know the episode titles or are willing to click on titles to get the info as to whether it's recent or a previous season)

Mind you, at some point on that website, it should ask you what location you're in / what TV provider you have to know what your channels and time zone are if it doesn't already know (else it defaults to some LA/California availability listing)

A quick glance does show some local channels (here in DC, channel 68 and 50, in addition to channel 7 (ABC)) that shows repeats of previous season episodes.

Also it shows some ABC-affiliate that shows the current Tuesday's episode on the Wednesday midnight timeslot (i.e. tuesday night but technically falls on wednesday since it's midnight).  Though I don't know if they have local equivalents where ever you live.  

Though I do recall in the past (as you've mentioned) they've shown Lost on the SciFi channel ... but I don't see any sci-fi channel listings at least not within the coming couple weeks.

(note, i personally find yahoo tv listing it a little too unfriendly to navigate, so I don't use that, then again, I don't get to watch much regular tv on schedule and have to either tivo or watch online, so I haven't really taken the time to learn/understand that website much either)

anyway, someone else may know better/more specifically than i do!


----------



## Felon (Mar 10, 2010)

catsclaw227 said:


> I am starting to believe that Jacob and Flocke are acutally two guys playing Sims.



Last night, I was starting to think that after Jacob was killed Smokey started playing the part of Jacob to Hugo and Jack.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Mar 10, 2010)

Man, I thought that was the crappiest episode thus far this season.  Oof.

I suppose the thing we're supposed to take from the episode is that Michael was also touched by Jacob at some point, and that's why he couldn't kill himself.  It was also Jacob that appeared to him at the end.



Felon said:


> Last night, I was starting to think that after Jacob was killed Smokey started playing the part of Jacob to Hugo and Jack.




My thought was that Richard said that in case Jacob tried to get Hurley to stop him from killing himself.


----------



## Felon (Mar 11, 2010)

LightPhoenix said:


> Man, I thought that was the crappiest episode thus far this season.  Oof.



My gripe is that the ads stated that Ben was going to meet his demise. Nobody died in either universe.

Also, the whole blackmailing bit didn't make much sense. Does the principal really think writing a bad recommnendation for one student for one university is really anything to weigh against what Linus had on him? Even if it was a bluff, it's not a believable one.


----------



## Shayuri (Mar 11, 2010)

The impression I had was that the principal was aware of Ben's devotion to Alex's potential as a student, and as a person. Obviously if he'd believed Ben was REALLY after his position, he'd have tried something stronger. But I think he knew that the only reason Ben wanted power was to protect students. So he figured that he wouldn't sacrifice a student to obtain power.

More importantly, from a narrative perspective, this event is the photonegative of the choice Island Ben made...to preserve his power and let Alex die.


----------



## fba827 (Mar 11, 2010)

Shayuri said:


> More importantly, from a narrative perspective, this event is the photonegative of the choice Island Ben made...to preserve his power and let Alex die.




Yeah, in an isolated view it did not come across (as presented) as a strong motivation for Ben to give in.  BUT, a) you have to take in the fact that Ben was devoted to the students and just assume that the principal knew of this strong motivation and b) as the audience it's important to recognize that this is the opposite of his choice -- power vs. alex's life/well-being -- that he made on the island.  And I think this later point ("b") is the main point the writers/show was trying to get across but did not necessarily succeed in demonstrating that the principal knew item "a."

just my take on it anyway.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Mar 11, 2010)

Shayuri said:


> More importantly, from a narrative perspective, this event is the photonegative of the choice Island Ben made...to preserve his power and let Alex die.




Actually, that was the part I didn't mind.  As you said, it makes sense, especially given Miles' comment that Jacob thought/hoped Ben was better.  It was the Island stuff that I was cool on.  Except for Richard, of course... I love how he just appears out of nowhere.  If there's on answer I hope we get, it's how the Others can do that.


----------



## Felon (Mar 11, 2010)

LightPhoenix said:


> Actually, that was the part I didn't mind.  As you said, it makes sense, especially given Miles' comment that Jacob thought/hoped Ben was better.



Actually, Miles' comment was that Jacob hoped he was wrong about Ben, not that Ben was a better man. That's very much akin to the previous episode's comment made by Dogen that Sayid "tipped the wrong way" on the moralityometer. We are drawn to infer something benign, when that's not necessarily the case.


----------



## Banshee16 (Mar 12, 2010)

Felon said:


> Hollywood teaches that exemplars of uncompromising righteousness are to be admired, but I'm old enough to know that's pretty much bullcrap. When I watch Gladiator, I don't think Maximus should be admired for adopting an inflexible attitude that cost him, his family, and his friends their lives. All he had to do was hug Claudius, ask for a raise, and then go rally his forces. But nooo.......
> 
> I think J.J. Abrahms wrote Jack and Sawyer as two daamged men who try to better themselves. When the people they care about are in danger, they put their lives on the line, even though they don't have any rosy notions about morality. That's a kind of heroism that I can admire.




Those are interesting points...but to be fair, and look at your Gladiator example from another angle....

What if Maximus *did* pretend to like Claudius and serve him, then go rally his forces?  How many people would have died then?  Claudius wouldn't have been likely to just give up, and I'm sure he would have had a legion serving his ends.  How much death and destruction would have been wrought at Maximus and Claudius battled for control of the empire?

More people might have died than did when Maximus stood up for his principles.  Obviously he lost his wife and son, and people who were involved in the plotting with him......but that was still probably a lower number than if civil war had erupted.

As to the Losties....do we *know* that Locke and his minions are evil, and those in the temple are good?  I think it's a decent assumption....but do we know?  If the inhabitants of the temple were evil, and Locke killed them, does that mean he's good?

Maybe it's going to be a twist at the very end.  I mean, Locke is sure not acting very nice.  But what did Jacob do that was good?  I mean, if Richard's been on the island for 500 years, and nobody else was told what was going on, how good is that?  Seems that Jacob spent a lot of time using people.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16 (Mar 12, 2010)

Felon said:


> Claire I never got. Never understood how she can have fans. Someone once posted in this forum "I love Claire", and I remember shaking my head and furrowing my brow as I read it. She's always been a whiny, useless, selfish pig. She certainly took poor Charlie's devotion completely for granted. And now she's ticked off at Kate for spending all those years babysitting her kid while she was awol. Vintage Claire. Horrible, annoying person.




I won't defend Claire's earlier behaviour....but her current behaviour?  Getting mad at Claire?  She's been living in the jungle on her own for how many years?  Being hunted by Others, and, to the best of her knowledge, having been abandoned by her so called friends?

She's cracked.  That's why she's not behaving rationally with Kate.  That doesn't make her evil....it makes her insane.  Of course, that doesn't make her behaviour any less dangerous to those around her.

I'm disappointed about Sayid.  Frankly, he seemed like someone trying to seek redemption, and put his past behind him.  I always thought he was one of the more interesting characters.

I missed the end of the episode wherein Smokey destroyed the temple.  Did Kate and Jin *willingly* join Smokey?  Or did they only join because they know that if they say "no" to Locke and try to leave, he'll just kill them?

Banshee


----------



## fba827 (Mar 12, 2010)

Banshee16 said:


> I missed the end of the episode wherein Smokey destroyed the temple.  Did Kate and Jin *willingly* join Smokey?  Or did they only join because they know that if they say "no" to Locke and try to leave, he'll just kill them?




Spoiler tags (though I doubt it's needed, just in case ...)

[sblock]
Kate had gone to try and get Claire out.  Claire (with a crazy look/laugh) said that her prison hole was the safest place.  As smokey came around the corner, Kate jumped down the hole to avoid it.  Smokey went elsewhere but avoided he hole since Claire was there (hence leaving Kate unaffected).  Once everything went silent, Kate and Claire emerged and found everyone dead.  Kate essentially followed Claire out the door, not really knowing what was going on.  She seemed surprised when she saw Locke and his followers waiting at the door.  So it wasn't so much an enthusiastic "I'll follow you" but rather "I am walking out, don't know what's going on, and you seem to be the only living people here so I'm following you but not necessarily 'joining' you" -- at least that is how I took it based on her nonverbal expressions.

Jin, I don't recall seeing in the temple attack.  I think he was still with Locke because he is too injured to leave on his own, he can't actually go anywhere.  So not a prisoner but not necessarily happy to be there either because he can sense the crazy.  I know at one point he was trying to trick Claire basically to ensure that he would be kept alive.  I think he is just in that mode right now (do what i can to stay alive until i figure a way out of this mess).

[/sblock]

anyway, that's just my recollection of it, of course, it's been a couple weeks now so i may be remembering something a little off...


----------



## Mark (Mar 12, 2010)

Banshee16 said:


> I missed the end of the episode (. . .)





Any summary is going to be laced with interpretations (no offense, fba827).  The last five episodes are currently on hulu.  You might want to watch and draw your own conclusions -

Lost - Full Episodes and Clips streaming online for free - Hulu


----------



## fba827 (Mar 12, 2010)

Mark said:


> Any summary is going to be laced with interpretations (no offense, fba827).




No offense taken at all -- as I was typing it I knew I was getting in to "personal interpretation" territory mixed with "this is how I remember it though it's been several weeks"


----------



## Felon (Mar 12, 2010)

Banshee16 said:


> I won't defend Claire's earlier behaviour....but her current behaviour?  Getting mad at Claire?  She's been living in the jungle on her own for how many years?  Being hunted by Others, and, to the best of her knowledge, having been abandoned by her so called friends?
> 
> She's cracked.  That's why she's not behaving rationally with Kate.  That doesn't make her evil....it makes her insane.  Of course, that doesn't make her behaviour any less dangerous to those around her.
> 
> ...



The end of the episode is wordless. Kate sees Locke (remember, as far as she knew he's dead) and all the people who left the temple rallying with him. She goes off with them without saying anything. Jin, I didn't see. 

Claire's current behavior wouldn't bother if it wasn't just the natural outgrowth of her previous behavior.

I think Sayid has long considered himself undeserving of redemption. I'm not sure if his true motive is really to get Nadia back, but I believe he shares my suspicion of Dogen and his crew being wolves in wolves' clothing (which is to say, viewers made them out to be sheep based on Dogen being some "wise, laconic Asian guru" archetype).


----------



## Felon (Mar 12, 2010)

Banshee16 said:


> Those are interesting points...but to be fair, and look at your Gladiator example from another angle....
> 
> What if Maximus *did* pretend to like Claudius and serve him, then go rally his forces?  How many people would have died then?  Claudius wouldn't have been likely to just give up, and I'm sure he would have had a legion serving his ends.  How much death and destruction would have been wrought at Maximus and Claudius battled for control of the empire?
> 
> More people might have died than did when Maximus stood up for his principles.  Obviously he lost his wife and son, and people who were involved in the plotting with him......but that was still probably a lower number than if civil war had erupted.



Good analysis. I was thinking more along the lines of Maximus hitting Claudius up for some compensation for his complicity, then rallies his forces for a midnight coup. Claudius was not really portrayed as a brilliant, perceptive mastermind, but rather a self-deluding opportunist. And Maximus would be a stand-up guy and take the heat for treason while the senate took over running Rome. However, you are correct in that heroic behavior is often as destructive as virtuous behavior. Is it hubris to chuck lives away in a righteous cause? Is it better just to roll over and accept a tyrant for fear of the cost of opposing him?

I'm just thinking that ultimately, Maximus's move to unilaterally reject Claudius with a thrown gauntlet was just a damned foolish one. As you point out, his lieutenant's betrayal prevented a civil war. Of course, this is all tied into the decision to to characterize the Roman six-star super-general as some kind of simple man oblivious to politics.



> As to the Losties....do we *know* that Locke and his minions are evil, and those in the temple are good?  I think it's a decent assumption....but do we know?  If the inhabitants of the temple were evil, and Locke killed them, does that mean he's good?
> 
> Maybe it's going to be a twist at the very end.  I mean, Locke is sure not acting very nice.  But what did Jacob do that was good?  I mean, if Richard's been on the island for 500 years, and nobody else was told what was going on, how good is that?  Seems that Jacob spent a lot of time using people.



Exactly. Like I said, wolves in wolves' clothing. Because Jacob isn't twirling his moustache, he must be a good guy, right? He can't just be a smarmy little smooth-talker who passively manipulates people into doing bad things, right? 

My guess is that without knowing what the objectives at hand are for Jacob and Smokey, we'll see a lof of viewers falling back on the tropes of beatific benevolence and selfish malevolence. I tend to assume a self-serving agenda on everyone's part, even the well-intended.


----------



## Mark (Mar 12, 2010)

fba827 said:


> No offense taken at all -- as I was typing it I knew I was getting in to "personal interpretation" territory mixed with "this is how I remember it though it's been several weeks"





It matches mine, too.  It's weird, though, how I'll speak with someone else sometimes and they catch something totally different from what I recall seeing.


----------



## fba827 (Mar 13, 2010)

A somewhat random thought --

So in the Lighthouse episode, we learn that Jacob is aware of others coming to the island and even when the lighthouse is destroyed, Jacob says to Hurley that it doesn't matter since they will still find it.  And then at the end of the most recent episode 



Spoiler



Widmore


 is seen coming to the island.

I am asking this because I admit to have missed several of the 'middle' seasons... but what do we know (if anything) about the relationship between the person on that boat and Jacob ?  I'm just wondering if that is the boat Jacob was expecting and the implications might be if Jacob and that person play for the same team (i.e. to keep Smokey at bay ...)

(yes, this question is more on heavy speculation and less on hard facts)


----------



## dravot (Mar 13, 2010)

fba827 said:


> A somewhat random thought --
> 
> So in the Lighthouse episode, we learn that Jacob is aware of others coming to the island and even when the lighthouse is destroyed, Jacob says to Hurley that it doesn't matter since they will still find it.  And then at the end of the most recent episode Widmore is seen coming to the island.
> 
> ...




We don't know anything about Widmore's relationship with Jacob, if they even had one.  We know he was an Other, and he was eventually banished from the island, and wants to go back.  We don't really know his motives for returning, either.


----------



## Mark (Mar 16, 2010)

Interesting choice of words on the Yahoo television site -


----------



## Asmo (Mar 16, 2010)

Mark said:


> Interesting choice of words on the Yahoo television site -




Hmmm? 

Asmo


----------



## fba827 (Mar 16, 2010)

Mark said:


> Interesting choice of words on the Yahoo television site -




I've seen that term ("flash sideways") used a couple times in publicity this season.  Based on context at that time, I presumed it was referring to the alt-timeline where the plane didn't crash and watching how the characters evolved in that timeline (i.e. not a flash-back or a flash-forward in time...)


----------



## Asmo (Mar 16, 2010)

fba827 said:


> I've seen that term ("flash sideways") used a couple times in publicity this season.  Based on context at that time, I presumed it was referring to the alt-timeline where the plane didn't crash and watching how the characters evolved in that timeline (i.e. not a flash-back or a flash-forward in time...)




A couple of times.. I thought it was common knowledge, more or less 

Asmo


----------



## Mark (Mar 17, 2010)

Allow me to flash sideways in this thread.


----------



## David Howery (Mar 17, 2010)

ya know, I suspect that the Others aren't "protecting the island" from Smokey... I bet they were supposed to keep him entrapped there... I bet the island is a prison, and Jacob was his 'jailer', as it were...


----------



## Jack7 (Mar 17, 2010)

I really enjoyed last night's episode.

Now that I know where Kate is in geographical relationship to Ford/Sawyer, I suspect I'm right about who Jack's wife actually is. Now I just need to know exactly why Kate was running, and from whom, and to where.

I also thought it was a good way to go to make James a detective. He always struck me as having the makings of an excellent undercover vice Dick.

But one thing struck me as odd about where Widmore landed. I think I know why and it's only partially related to the pylons. I think he's looking for something Ben  mentioned once, if I remember correctly.

I hope though that somebody goes back to the lighthouse. There's a lot more potentially there than we got to see earlier.

If the island is what I think it may be, then it will be really interesting to see the background on Richard/Ricardo. Because he's been off the island too, like Jacob.


----------



## fba827 (Mar 17, 2010)

this will spoil some of last night's episode so putting it in spoiler block just in case.

I fully admit that i missed some of the middle seasons, so this may already have been answered which is why I'm asking ...
[sblock]
As far as I knew, Sawyer was always a con man on the bad side of the law.  If, given this flash sideways, has him as a cop, does that mean the flashsideways is a reset of more than just _after_ the island and instead could have reset some situations prior to the plane as well (i.e. sawyer becoming a cop)... OR has it not been ruled out that Sawyer may have been a cop prior to going to australia ?

Because if the flashsideways is resetting stuff from before the flight as well, that might explain Jack's wife/child in an entirely different perspective.
[/sblock]

Anyway, just a random thought/question.


----------



## RangerWickett (Mar 17, 2010)

I believe the prevailing theory is that the flash sidewayses are the result of the island being nuked in 1977. This would have been before Jacob had a chance to visit any of the candidates. Thus Sawyer would not have had a pen to write a vengeful letter to Mr. Sawyer, which could have been just enough to nudge him away from crime.

Now, Kate's still a criminal, so I don't know if anything changed there. And at the end of last season we saw Jacob touch Jack "around 2001" (according to Lostpedia), which would be too late to be directly responsible for him having a kid some time in the mid-90s. However, other island inhabitants might have left the island and settled in L.A. in the alternative timeline, so they could be responsible for some changes as well.


----------



## Richards (Mar 18, 2010)

In the first episode of this season, in the "flash-sideways" universe, Kate escaped from her captor and was in an airport elevator, still in handcuffs.  Sawyer/Ford was on the elevator, saw her in handcuffs, and helped her escape the notice of the airport security personnel, who were also on the same elevator.  Kind of odd behavior for a detective - leading me to wonder whether the writers had decided yet that Sawyer/Ford was a detective in this reality.

Johnathan


----------



## Banshee16 (Mar 18, 2010)

Mark said:


> Any summary is going to be laced with interpretations (no offense, fba827).  The last five episodes are currently on hulu.  You might want to watch and draw your own conclusions -
> 
> Lost - Full Episodes and Clips streaming online for free - Hulu




Which looks really cool....but is useless to me, since I live in Canada, and Hulu (and most American sites) block streaming of their TV shows etc. to Canada 

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16 (Mar 18, 2010)

Felon said:


> The end of the episode is wordless. Kate sees Locke (remember, as far as she knew he's dead) and all the people who left the temple rallying with him. She goes off with them without saying anything. Jin, I didn't see.
> 
> Claire's current behavior wouldn't bother if it wasn't just the natural outgrowth of her previous behavior.
> 
> I think Sayid has long considered himself undeserving of redemption. I'm not sure if his true motive is really to get Nadia back, but I believe he shares my suspicion of Dogen and his crew being wolves in wolves' clothing (which is to say, viewers made them out to be sheep based on Dogen being some "wise, laconic Asian guru" archetype).




I got that about Sayid.  I guess I've always just sympathized.  He knows what he did is wrong, and he's tried desperately throughout the series to make choices to change from the man he was....but in many circumstances, ends up getting pushed to do things he knows are wrong.  What he's done is absolutely bad.  Maybe he's the bad guy who knows he's bad, and wants to be good, but being bad is so much easier?  I don't know..

Claire, after last night's episode......eech.  If I was Kate, I'd be carrying a big stick, and sleeping with my back against a wall, and one eye open.  When Claire hugged her I kept thinking "here comes the knife, here's the end of Kate"...but it didn't happen.

I'm surprised that Sawyer doesn't care more about the fact that Locke is Smokey...he didn't even react to his former companion saying "he, you know that supernatural demonic black cloud that has slaughtered many of your fellow survivors indiscriminately, and shouldn't exist according to everything you know?  Well, that's me."

Of course, Sawyer is a survivor, so maybe he cares, but won't make a deal of it, because he knows he can't afford to anger Locke.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16 (Mar 18, 2010)

Felon said:


> Good analysis. I was thinking more along the lines of Maximus hitting Claudius up for some compensation for his complicity, then rallies his forces for a midnight coup. Claudius was not really portrayed as a brilliant, perceptive mastermind, but rather a self-deluding opportunist. And Maximus would be a stand-up guy and take the heat for treason while the senate took over running Rome. However, you are correct in that heroic behavior is often as destructive as virtuous behavior. Is it hubris to chuck lives away in a righteous cause? Is it better just to roll over and accept a tyrant for fear of the cost of opposing him?




Those are some thorny questions, and ones which obviously have been considered and discussed for centuries.  I don't claim to have an answer...I'm not a big supporter of tyrants.  But I'm also not a fan of innocent people getting killed...the regular civilians tend to bear a heavy part of the suffering during many conflicts.



Felon said:


> I'm just thinking that ultimately, Maximus's move to unilaterally reject Claudius with a thrown gauntlet was just a damned foolish one. As you point out, his lieutenant's betrayal prevented a civil war. Of course, this is all tied into the decision to to characterize the Roman six-star super-general as some kind of simple man oblivious to politics.




There is that.....of course, whether a super general in Rome was as politically oriented as one might be nowadays is a good question.  Were Roman generals that political?  Obviously many of them started civil wars by bringing their legions across the Rubicon......but were they politically trained and capable etc.?  Or were they just the equivalent of a military coup nowadays?  In many cases the military in these instances is capable of taking their country by force...but administering it effectively?



Felon said:


> Exactly. Like I said, wolves in wolves' clothing. Because Jacob isn't twirling his moustache, he must be a good guy, right? He can't just be a smarmy little smooth-talker who passively manipulates people into doing bad things, right?
> 
> My guess is that without knowing what the objectives at hand are for Jacob and Smokey, we'll see a lof of viewers falling back on the tropes of beatific benevolence and selfish malevolence. I tend to assume a self-serving agenda on everyone's part, even the well-intended.




After this week's episode, I still don't trust Locke.  I'm trying to look at him as maybe the hero, but I just can't trust him.  This Locke creeps me out.  Maybe that's the writer's intent......but I just can't help thinking that it's very important that he does *not* get off the island.  As the smoke monster, how much damage could he do off the island?  He's immortal or very long lived, pretty much unkillable, and doesn't seem to have an compunctions against killing people.

The aggravating thing about the show is how nobody will explain what's going on.  The Losties still don't know after all this time, Jacob can't really do anything, etc.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16 (Mar 18, 2010)

David Howery said:


> ya know, I suspect that the Others aren't "protecting the island" from Smokey... I bet they were supposed to keep him entrapped there... I bet the island is a prison, and Jacob was his 'jailer', as it were...




That's what I'm thinking.  I don't understand why Locke, or whatever he is, is still referred to as a man.  I mean, he's either not human, or is a man who's gained phenomenal supernatural power.

If he gets off the island, it could be a mess.

I noticed a few things this week.  According to the Flash Sideways, Sawyer and Miles already know each other.  Given that very little time has gone by since 815 landed in Los Angeles, it's not like Sawyer had time to go from being a conman to doing police training, getting a job, and being partnered with Miles...

Of course, that would imply that Sawyer is actually a cop on the island.  And he hasn't told anyone.  Why?  Of course, Locke never told any of the Losties that he'd been paralyzed, either.

Unless I've missed something (missed first 5 minutes of episode).

Banshee


----------



## dravot (Mar 18, 2010)

fba827 said:


> this will spoil some of last night's episode so putting it in spoiler block just in case.
> 
> I fully admit that i missed some of the middle seasons, so this may already have been answered which is why I'm asking ...
> [sblock]
> ...




Jacob "touched" Sawyer the day of Sawyer's funeral.  In this reality, it would seem that Jacob never had that chance, and thus Sawyer's future was changed.  In one reality Sawyer turns to the law do deal with his grief (and possible revenge), in the other he turns to crime.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Mar 24, 2010)

Hey, some answers about Ricardo tonight. I have to admit I was in and out of this one, but a bit surprised that they broke from the usual flash forward/flash back/flash sideways technique for most of the episode.

So, is the four-letter word "cork"?


----------



## David Howery (Mar 24, 2010)

David Howery said:


> ya know, I suspect that the Others aren't "protecting the island" from Smokey... I bet they were supposed to keep him entrapped there... I bet the island is a prison, and Jacob was his 'jailer', as it were...




Ha!  I sure called this one right!

Not that it was really all that difficult to see...


----------



## Demmero (Mar 24, 2010)

Eh...not sure I'm liking (or getting) this Island = Cork thing. Just how effective was the "cork" when Ben moved the island through time and/or space? And how effective is it sitting at the bottom of the ocean in "flash sideways" time?


----------



## Fast Learner (Mar 24, 2010)

Demmero said:


> And how effective is it sitting at the bottom of the ocean in "flash sideways" time?




I think we'll find out about that. I suspect it's not good for the world.


----------



## fba827 (Mar 24, 2010)

Demmero said:


> Eh...not sure I'm liking (or getting) this Island = Cork thing. Just how effective was the "cork" when Ben moved the island through time and/or space? And how effective is it sitting at the bottom of the ocean in "flash sideways" time?




I saw it as a metaphor that was convenient at the moment.  I don't believe (or at least he has given no indication as such) that Jacob (at that time with Richard) would have knowledge of those particular future events.


----------



## Mark (Mar 24, 2010)

Hurley being bilingual worked out nicely this episode.  I wonder if the part he added at the end (one more thing) is true and from the talk on the beach interupted by Jack.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Mar 25, 2010)

I saw a quote that summed up my feelings on this episode perfectly: "This was a great 42 minutes of television, and a great 5 minutes of Lost."


----------



## Remus Lupin (Mar 31, 2010)

Interesting episode last night. Again, any time you get to see Keemy die, it's good. Also, Sun is now officially in my "sexiest woman on 'Lost'" category.

On the downside -- it's a bit lame at this point in the series to deprive her of her ability to speak English. What purpose does that serve? Also interesting to see Desmond make a reappearance.

You know, I'd be in favor of a spin off series, where every week, somebody kills Keemy. He just so deserves it.


----------



## Demmero (Mar 31, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> You know, I'd be in favor of a spin off series, where every week, somebody kills Keemy. He just so deserves it.




"Oh my God--they killed Keamy!!  You bastards!"

And to quote the little guy from my avatar: "Do it again! Do it again! Do it again!"

Seriously, though...the actor who plays Keamy is so easily hateable. Just that smarmy smile and the evil Vinny Barbarino voice.

It was also nice to see Mikhail again, even though he was so cleaned-up that he was almost unrecognizeable. While watching, I managed to comment to my sister that he had his missing eye back...right before it got shot out. Talk about "course correction"....


----------



## Mark (Apr 1, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> On the downside -- it's a bit lame at this point in the series to deprive her of her ability to speak English. What purpose does that serve?





Two levels of irony: when the series began she pretended she couldn't speak English though she could and what brough Richard back and put him back in play was Hurley's bilingual ability while what Sun would have done was potentially thwart what Richard, Hurley and (apparently Jacob) want to do.  It keeps Sun's objections between her and Jack for the time being so that Richard, Hurley and whoever is on board with their plan isn't handled before it gets off the ground.  It's a hidden complication just as the "good guys" were close to consensus on a plan.


----------



## Jack7 (Apr 1, 2010)

> Two levels of irony: when the series began she pretended she couldn't speak English though she could and what brough Richard back and put him back in play was Hurley's bilingual ability while what Sun would have done was potentially thwart what Richard, Hurley and (apparently Jacob) want to do. It keeps Sun's objections between her and Jack for the time being so that Richard, Hurley and whoever is on board with their plan isn't handled before it gets off the ground. It's a hidden complication just as the "good guys" were close to consensus on a plan.




An interesting and nice set of observations.

I'll expand a bit on one of your implications. You don't really know who to trust. When you wake up you want to be able to operate by knowing what is going on around you, but not disclose what you know to anyone you're not absolutely sure you can trust. (Or don't yet know who you can trust.)

Assuming she finds Jin, and I suspect she thinks she will indeed find Jin, what better way to operate than to be able to converse with Jin in Korean (telling him to say something other than what they are really discussing) to express among themselves exactly what is meant, while telling others whatever you want them to hear. (Sun has already done this with Keamy in the side-ways world.)

This occurred to me as a trick worth using when I first learned that some characters were speaking Latin. However enough people on the island are scientists or doctors that Latin posed a security risk if overheard by the right people. On the island Korean is practically a "closed-circuit language." (Only one other character that I remember spoke Korean.)

_*It occurred to me long ago that Sun and Jin had an enormous tactical communications advantage anytime they choose to exercise it.*_ I cannot help but wonder now if Sun has finally figured this out as well, and is deliberately playing to effect. She has a good excuse, or at least a seemingly good excuse. 

It's what I would have done. 
Subterfuge is always best expressed in an unknown language.


----------



## Quantum (Apr 1, 2010)

Well I for one hope Sun and Jin find happiness away from her father. But in the end they may have to fake their deaths in order to get away from him.

I think I might possibly know how the island sinks.

If you paid attention, the map Widmore showed Jin had the locations of other pocxkets of energy like at the hatch. In the final episodes of the fifth season, they exploded a nuclear  bomb to dissipate that energy. I believe that that is what she meant by "it worked" and was not referring to any changes of the timeline, although the dissipation of that energy could alter their timelines which might result in the flash sideways stories.

So I think that's how they're going to sink the island. Once all that energy is exploded, the water will rush in and bye bye island.

I also think that's how they'll finally destroy the smoke monster.

This is just speculation, however. We'll have to wait and see.


----------



## Mark (Apr 1, 2010)

I wonder at the fact of more than just the one island.


----------



## David Howery (Apr 7, 2010)

nice to see Desmond back.  Okay, getting some hints that the 'sideways no island' timeline is a fake, judging from Eloise (?) comments...


----------



## Remus Lupin (Apr 7, 2010)

Also, Desmond says to Charlie "none of this is real."

Also, it now looks like Desmond is a man on a mission, in two universes.

It occurred to me, that if Daniel knew how easy it was to get Charlotte into bed, he might have introduced himself to her at the museum.


----------



## fba827 (Apr 8, 2010)

David Howery said:


> nice to see Desmond back.  Okay, getting some hints that the 'sideways no island' timeline is a fake, judging from Eloise (?) comments...




Yeah, judging from those comments is almost as if the flashsideways (at least for desmond, but maybe for all the candidates as well?) are what they desire...
i.e. desmond wanted charles approval, so this was an extension of desmond in a situation where he had gained approval in some form.

looking at the others, sun and jin always hoped for a stronger relationship, and it appears that in their flashsideways they had one.  jack was often talking about father-son relationships and in his flashsideways when trying to bond with his son made several comments about how his father would always do it some other way but he's trying to do it right with his son, etc.

though, i'm not sure this theory holds up for all the others (locke seemed to just be as frustrated in his flashsideways, though i suppose if all he wanted was to actually be accepted then he got that by virtue of the fact that his fiance was still willing to marry him -- at least from what i remember that episode weeks ago...)


----------



## Remus Lupin (Apr 12, 2010)

I'm surprised last week's episode didn't get more commentary, given how awsome and pivotal it was to the overall plot. Oh well. New episode tomorrow.


----------



## Asmo (Apr 12, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> I'm surprised last week's episode didn't get more commentary, given how awsome and pivotal it was to the overall plot. Oh well. New episode tomorrow.




Oh yes, Enworld is a strange place in that regard 

I concur; that was a most excellent episode - I wonder what I will watch and enjoy as much after Lost is done? Perhaps Dexter, but other than that it looks bleak indeed.

Asmo


----------



## Fast Learner (Apr 13, 2010)

Not that it should make that much of a difference, but there are a bunch of places to discuss Lost, people talk about it everywhere. Not so much for other scifi shows.


----------



## Asmo (Apr 13, 2010)

Fast Learner said:


> Not that it should make that much of a difference, but there are a bunch of places to discuss Lost, people talk about it everywhere. Not so much for other scifi shows.




But it´s the Enworlders thoughts and opinions that matters - there´s a lot of Lost forums out there, no doubt about that, but not many forums has the collected wisdom of Enworld!


Asmo


----------



## Mark (Apr 14, 2010)

Hit & Run.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Apr 14, 2010)

Talk creepy...Ben doing Wonka's boat trip poem at the end of last night's show.  Nightmares!


----------



## Remus Lupin (Apr 14, 2010)

Well, that ending was ... unexpected. I was actually feeling good for Alt-world Locke.

My question: I think that Desmond is simultaneously conscious of events in both realities, or at least has intermitant knowledge of what's going on in both of them. So was his car ride last night the result of his trip down the well? Or was that always in his plan?

And, speaking of plans, running someone down in front of a school in broad daylight in a silver BMW with a distinct license plate, after having been rousted by a member of the faculty, seems like a very good way to get arrested very quickly, so I can only hope that Desmond will have time to make contact with whoever else from Oceanic 815 he still needs to talk to.


----------



## Asmo (Apr 14, 2010)

They did it - the cardinal sin; they split the party.  I really don´t want to lose Miles and Ben on a stupid party-split.

Asmo


----------



## David Howery (Apr 15, 2010)

but aren't all the original Losties together now?  Or did Jin wander off somewhere...


----------



## dravot (Apr 15, 2010)

David Howery said:


> but aren't all the original Losties together now?  Or did Jin wander off somewhere...




All of the Al-Ajira losties are together.  Jin is on Hydra island, but wasn't on the 2nd plane.


----------



## FoxWander (Apr 15, 2010)

Hand of Evil said:


> Talk creepy...Ben doing Wonka's boat trip poem at the end of last night's show.  Nightmares!




Huh? When was this?


----------



## Asmo (Apr 15, 2010)

FoxWander said:


> Huh? When was this?




I think it was in the preview for the next episode?

Asmo


----------



## Mistwell (Apr 15, 2010)

Hand of Evil said:


> Talk creepy...Ben doing Wonka's boat trip poem at the end of last night's show.  Nightmares!




That's not Ben.  That's the actual Wonka speech from the movie, not a Ben voice-over of it.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld5yp3osCKI]YouTube - LOST 6.13 The Last Recruit/Wonka Video[/ame]


----------



## Hand of Evil (Apr 16, 2010)

Yep, Wonka --- Have spread some exp around


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Apr 21, 2010)

So the smoke monster can only take the forms of dead people.  Is it only a coincidence that that was also the schtick of Buffy's incorporeal foe The First?


----------



## Sir Brennen (Apr 21, 2010)

GrayLinnorm said:


> So the smoke monster can only take the forms of dead people.  Is it only a coincidence that that was also the schtick of Buffy's incorporeal foe The First?



Not at all. The Island is the ultimate Hellmouth.


----------



## coyote6 (Apr 21, 2010)

If Sarah Michelle Gellar jumps off a helicopter and takes the Locke Monster's head off with that Scythe axe-thing, then Abrams, Lindelof, & co. will have the most amusing finale ever. EVAR, even.


----------



## Richards (Apr 22, 2010)

I assume that Smokey's confession that he was the image of Jack's dead father, who led Jack to fresh water in the first season, also means that he was the horse that Kate saw?

Johnathan


----------



## Hand of Evil (Apr 22, 2010)

Is there a show next week?


----------



## Richards (Apr 22, 2010)

Should be -- they were going to have an unbroken string of weekly shows leading up to the series finale (which, I believe, will be broadcast on a Sunday instead of the normal Tuesday).

Johnathan


----------



## fba827 (Apr 22, 2010)

Hand of Evil said:


> Is there a show next week?






Richards said:


> Should be -- they were going to have an unbroken string of weekly shows leading up to the series finale (which, I believe, will be broadcast on a Sunday instead of the normal Tuesday).




I thought so to, Richards, but I just looked at the schedule ...
April 20
May 4
May 11
May 18
May 23 (2 hour finale; sunday night)

So it appears that it does indeed skip next week (which would be april 27)...
(unless the schedule on yahoo tv is wrong).


----------



## TracerBullet42 (Apr 22, 2010)

fba827 said:


> I thought so to, Richards, but I just looked at the schedule ...
> April 20
> May 4
> May 11
> ...




That is correct.  Next week will be a repeat of the episode "Ab Aeterno"  (or however it was spelled...)


----------



## coyote6 (Apr 22, 2010)

I've been trying to figure out why they're throwing in a repeat now. Did they just not count the number of weeks and episodes right? Was the 2 hour finale originally just two episodes they're putting together? I don't think there's anything else major on another channel on the 27th, either.


----------



## Quantum (Apr 22, 2010)

Richards said:


> I assume that Smokey's confession that he was the image of Jack's dead father, who led Jack to fresh water in the first season, also means that he was the horse that Kate saw?
> 
> Johnathan





No, he can't leave the island.

But I for one would like to see them explain the Horse.

I'm not sure if Sayid actually killed Desmond. I hope not.


----------



## Sir Brennen (Apr 22, 2010)

Quantum said:


> But I for one would like to see them explain the Horse.



Not only the horse, but mirage Walt, who's alive and well. So, couldn't have been Smokie at those times, right?



> I'm not sure if Sayid actually killed Desmond. I hope not.



No, Sayid didn't kill Desmond. I believe Des was able to work his parallel universe love-connection on him, but from the Island side instead of Sideways world this time. Island Sayid might be the first Oceanic survivor whose aware of both worlds from the Island perspective.

Of course, Sawyer, Kate and Sayid are all going to be at the police station together, and Sideways Des hasn't contacted any of them yet.


----------



## coyote6 (Apr 22, 2010)

In addition to Walt, the horse, & the polar bear, there's also the kid that Locke Monster himself has been seeing. Any one with him can see the kid, but he refuses to talk about it.

Clearly, Smokey is not behind every apparition.


----------



## fba827 (Apr 22, 2010)

coyote6 said:


> there's also the kid that Locke Monster himself has been seeing. Any one with him can see the kid, but he refuses to talk about it.




Small correction: Not everyone with Locke-Monster could see the kid.  For instance, Sawyer could see the kid, but Richard could not.  It may be a candidate/noncandidate thing.


----------



## Fast Learner (Apr 22, 2010)

coyote6 said:


> I've been trying to figure out why they're throwing in a repeat now. Did they just not count the number of weeks and episodes right? Was the 2 hour finale originally just two episodes they're putting together? I don't think there's anything else major on another channel on the 27th, either.



Looks like better alignment with May sweeps, to me.


----------



## coyote6 (Apr 23, 2010)

fba827 said:


> Small correction: Not everyone with Locke-Monster could see the kid.  For instance, Sawyer could see the kid, but Richard could not.  It may be a candidate/noncandidate thing.




Whoops, that's right. 



Fast Learner said:


> Looks like better alignment with May sweeps, to me.




Probably. I'm just puzzled that they couldn't have figured that out way back when, and started on Feb. 9th rather than 2nd? 

Or, maybe they added a cushion week, in case they had to postpone an episode for a presidential speech or other breaking news? No such thing happened, so they replay an episode?

Were they really clever, or kind of dumb? Hmm . . .


----------



## Fast Learner (Apr 23, 2010)

Wikipedia says the 2010 sweeps in question are:

February 4 - March 3, 2010
April 29 – May 26, 2010

So yeah, seems like it would have been safe to restart on Feb 9. Flexibility may well have been it, you likely have that right.


----------



## RichCsigs (Apr 24, 2010)

coyote6 said:


> In addition to Walt, the horse, & the polar bear, there's also the kid that Locke Monster himself has been seeing. Any one with him can see the kid, but he refuses to talk about it.
> 
> Clearly, Smokey is not behind every apparition.




The polar bears were in the Hydra island zoo.  It's never specifically said but the Others did say they were keeping Sawyer & Kate in the polar bear cages, so you can make the logical jump there.  Theoretically you could say the same for all the other animals seen too, though you'd have to explain how they got from Hydra island to the main island (the bears could swim it, but the boars?).

Walt was just "special" so that's why we've seen him all over the place.  I'm assuming his story will go unresolved (much like Libby's).  You know, after the show is done, I'd love to see Darlton do a series of comics or something to answer any unanswered questions.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Apr 24, 2010)

RichCsigs said:


> (the bears could swim it, but the boars?).




The boars have been there from before the Black Roc as they came in to eat the bodies in the Richard backstory.  Odds are, they have been there from day one.


----------



## David Howery (May 5, 2010)

damn it... the local broadcasters were having problems with their signal during Lost tonight (something to do with the gale force winds blowing here in Cheyenne, I would guess)... what was Claire yelling at Locke about in the last scene?


----------



## coyote6 (May 5, 2010)

So, who's going to be the final candidate -- Jack, Sawyer, or Hugo? 

They're clearly setting it up to be Jack, and he's basically volunteering for the job -- so that makes me think it'll be Hugo or Sawyer. 

Sawyer would make sense, as a final act of redemption, going from self-serving (and -loathing) grifter to volunteering to keep a monster caged up for centuries. When Kate dies, that'll be just about the last straw for him, so I could also see him reversing his decision to leave. Especially if it means he gets to stick it to Locke Monster.

Hugo would be awesome, because he's not The Hero. He also has all sorts of supernatural stuff going on already -- he was seeing dead people when he was off the island, was tied up with the numbers (which led him to ludicrous extremes of luck, good and bad), etc. He would also get to stay where Libby was buried.

Or will they flip it, and somehow get rid of the whole candidate thing?


----------



## fba827 (May 5, 2010)

David Howery said:


> damn it... the local broadcasters were having problems with their signal during Lost tonight (something to do with the gale force winds blowing here in Cheyenne, I would guess)... what was Claire yelling at Locke about in the last scene?




It wasn't yelling so much as frantic questioning.  The gist of it was

[sblock]
Locke: The sub just sunk
Claire: But they were all on it. they're all dead?
Locke: Not all of them
(Locke starts grabbing his gun and gear)
Claire: Where you going?
Locke: To finish what I started.
[/sblock]


----------



## Mark (May 5, 2010)

coyote6 said:


> So, who's going to be the final candidate -- Jack, Sawyer, or Hugo?





I think it will be 



Spoiler



the littlest Kwon.


----------



## Diamond Cross (May 5, 2010)

Claire wasn't yelling at Locke she was upset because Sawyer made the decision to leave without her.

I noticed Ben and Richard are missing from this episode. What happened to them?


----------



## Remus Lupin (May 5, 2010)

Ben, Richard, and Miles struck out on their own rather than go with Hurley to Locke. I suspect they'll turn up before all is said and done.


----------



## LightPhoenix (May 5, 2010)

I thought (or was led to believe) that the candidates were protected from harm, much like Richard.  Perhaps that was a little too hasty.  Given the title of the episode though, my suspicion is the reason Sayid and Jin could die was because the candidate was already chosen.  Since Jack decided to stay on the island, my supposition is that it has to be him.  Everyone else was no longer needed, and so they could die.

EDIT: Of course, if that's the case, why exactly aren't Bernard and Rose candidates?


----------



## Fast Learner (May 6, 2010)

Diamond Cross said:


> Claire wasn't yelling at Locke she was upset because Sawyer made the decision to leave without her.



It depends on which Claire yelling he's talking about. She was definitely yelling in horror/frustration in response to Locke/Smokey reporting that the sub had sunk and implying that indeed some of them were dead.



LightPhoenix said:


> I thought (or was led to believe) that the candidates were protected from harm, much like Richard.  Perhaps that was a little too hasty.  Given the title of the episode though, my suspicion is the reason Sayid and Jin could die was because the candidate was already chosen.



Here's my understanding: Smokey can't kill candidates, but candidates can certainly be killed by others. That's Jack's idea behind the bomb: if Sawyer had left it alone then it couldn't have killed any of them, but if it was messed with then it would be Sawyer killing them, which is exactly what happened.

They're not the same as Richard, but they are protected from Smokey.


----------



## Diamond Cross (May 6, 2010)

Yeah in Ab Aeterno (I think) Richard was trying to kill himself and Jack sat with him in front of a stick of dynamite. It went out without exploding.


----------



## fba827 (May 6, 2010)

did we ever learn how/why Kate was taken off the candidate list? Or we only really know this as a result of her name having been crossed off in the cave of lists?


----------



## fba827 (May 6, 2010)

Fast Learner said:


> Here's my understanding: Smokey can't kill candidates, but candidates can certainly be killed by others. That's Jack's idea behind the bomb: if Sawyer had left it alone then it couldn't have killed any of them, but if it was messed with then it would be Sawyer killing them, which is exactly what happened.
> 
> They're not the same as Richard, but they are protected from Smokey.




That's my understanding as well.
Richard=unique situation and can't be killed
Candidates=can't be killed by smokey per 'the rules' but can die by other causes


----------



## Fast Learner (May 6, 2010)

It's quite possible that Richard can't kill candidates either.


----------



## David Howery (May 6, 2010)

so... basically, Smokey has to kill off all the candidates to leave the island because then there will be no Jacob left to keep him there?

Man, three main character deaths in one episode...

and what is Desmond's role in all this?


----------



## Fast Learner (May 6, 2010)

David Howery said:


> so... basically, Smokey has to kill off all the candidates to leave the island because then there will be no Jacob left to keep him there?



That's my understanding. Jacob and his replacement candidates are the stopper in the bottle that keeps Smokey on the island.



> and what is Desmond's role in all this?



Wish I knew. He seems to be the guy who can see both timelines, but beyond that I dunno.


----------



## Blastin (May 6, 2010)

I'm just glad Sayid got to go out doing something heroic and not as some "tool of evil" zombie.
 As for the Kwons: I was waiting for Sun to pull out the "You have to leave me so that our daughter is not alone." But she never did. Which is kinda strange and out of character.


----------



## Mark (May 6, 2010)

Blastin said:


> As for the Kwons: I was waiting for Sun to pull out the "You have to leave me so that our daughter is not alone." But she never did. Which is kinda strange and out of character.





That and the whole avoidance of saying which Kwon is the candidate 



Spoiler



led me to thinking that the littlest Kwon is the one.


----------



## Diamond Cross (May 7, 2010)

Just remember, in the premier episode of this season they showed the island on the bottom of the ocean.


----------



## Diamond Cross (May 12, 2010)

Well Jack took the black and white stones so it's confirmed he's going to replace Jacob.

But something's going to happen to sink the island.


----------



## Mark (May 12, 2010)

Diamond Cross said:


> Well Jack took the black and white stones so it's confirmed he's going to replace Jacob.





Do you have confirmation that is a certainty?  I figured it was a ruse to throw people off the final scent.


----------



## Diamond Cross (May 12, 2010)

I believe it to be a certainty because they're been throwing out the black and white theme throughout the entire series, with Jacob being white and his brother being black. Throughout history, white has stood for good and black has stood for evil.

And it was a symbolic act, when Jack took those two stones, it was a confirmation. 

As for who's going to be the next smokey (not necessarily a monster) I wonder if it will be Hurley. The reason why I think this is because Jacob's brother could see the dead and Hurley can see the dead.


----------



## coyote6 (May 12, 2010)

Diamond Cross said:


> I believe it to be a certainty because they're been throwing out the black and white theme throughout the entire series, with Jacob being white and his brother being black. Throughout history, white has stood for good and black has stood for evil.




In certain cultures, anyways. It's not universal, AFAIK.

Also, last night, it was Jacob-the-white that murdered his brother, and sent him into the cave where no one should ever go. Jacob turned his brother into the smoke monster. Jacob's nameless brother killed his adoptive mother, but only after he thought she had murdered his friends (and possibly family) of 30 years, and after he had learned that mom was apparently insane in the membrane (what with murdering their real mother, and then lying her ass off about the nature of the world). 

So, who was really the good guy? The color-coding is convenient, but is it accurate? 

Me, I don't think either of them really qualifies as pure, unvarnished good, after last night. Both of 'em were wrong to kill who they did. Maybe that's really why they're both stuck on the island.

Now, from what we know, Jacob has been less evil subsequently, while Brother Smokey has murdered his way through the centuries.


----------



## Remus Lupin (May 12, 2010)

Here is going to be the final scene of Lost:

SCENE: Jack and Locke sitting on the beach, staring out at the sea.

Locke: Do you know how much I want to kill you?

Jack: Yes, I do.


----------



## stonegod (May 13, 2010)

Its going to end with an eye closing. Bookends and all that.


----------



## Diamond Cross (May 13, 2010)

We do know the island will sink.

And that will probably lead to the flash sideways timeline.


----------



## Mark (May 13, 2010)

stonegod said:


> Its going to end with an eye closing. Bookends and all that.





Picard's eye?


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 13, 2010)

Diamond Cross said:


> We do know the island will sink.
> 
> And that will probably lead to the flash sideways timeline.




We just know that the island sank in the flash sideway timeline. Presumably because they blew it up with.


----------



## David Howery (May 13, 2010)

a pretty good episode overall... except...
what the heck is that mystical light stuff?


----------



## Banshee16 (May 14, 2010)

Diamond Cross said:


> Just remember, in the premier episode of this season they showed the island on the bottom of the ocean.




I don't think that means anything to the Losties.  In the Flash-Sideways universe, the nuke *was* detonated in the past....the island ended up on the bottom of the ocean, and their lives were changed.

In the "normal" timeline they stayed in, the nuke didn't go off, so the island didn't sink.  But that doesn't mean that it *will* sink now.

Banshee


----------



## Remus Lupin (May 14, 2010)

Here's a question: From what point in history was Jacob's and his brother's mother (their real one?). She briefly spoke what might have been latin (but it also might have been Spanish? Her dress looked vaguely Roman, but there was little else (except maybe the dagger?) to give us an historical clue.

Also, the statue had not been built yet, and the statue was Egyptian, but I don't know if that can tell us a lot about the historical timeline either.


----------



## RangerWickett (May 14, 2010)

It was Latin. I was amused by the American accents of all the natives, though.

At this point, I don't think the history matters. They spent a whole episode basically showing us a glowing cave, and that Jacob is even more of an *ss than I though (and Smokey more a sympathetic victim). It revealed almost nothing we had not already been told, and would have worked _much_ better, I feel, if it had been spliced into the episode as a flashback, from Smokey's perspective. 

That would have stayed much more true to the nature of the series, and let us have actual plot advancement, without wasting time on fluff. The events of this episode did not warrant 43 minutes of screen time. (I felt the same with the Ricardo episode.)


----------



## Starman (May 19, 2010)

Thoughts on the penultimate episode?


I'm not convinced that Jack truly is the protector. I picture Sawyer arguing with him that his life is with Kate raising kids. I think Sawyer will be the protector.

I love Desmond's calm, assured demeanor. 

Was Evil Locke telling the truth or whole truth about what Widmore said? I'm not sure.

Overall, I liked it. It wasn't great as it seemed to be just the calm before the big events, but it was still good. I can't wait for Sunday.


----------



## Jack7 (May 19, 2010)

I'm not convinced yet that Jack will end up being the only protector. And I suspect that Desmond is somehow gonna be bringing in a second team to raid the game.

I'm very much looking forwards to the last night, especially since Un-Locke is shooting to destroy the Island. I think that means something other than what _he thinks it does_.

And something other than what Ben thinks it does.

I'm gonna miss this show.
In my opinion the greatest television show of all time. (So far.)


----------



## Starman (May 19, 2010)

Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out how the alt-reality is going to end up playing out. Will they be able to choose which reality they want to continue living in? Will the alt-reality just go away?


----------



## Jack7 (May 19, 2010)

I'd be shocked if Locke and Un-Locke don't have a confrontation.

By the way, my kid was jumping all around me this evening when I got in from training. Did anybody see the pic of Jack, his kid, and someone else? I just glanced it. 

Was the someone else a female, as in his wife? 
If so who did it look like?

You know what though. I hope Mr. Eko makes a last appearance on Sunday. 
I kinda miss him.


----------



## Remus Lupin (May 19, 2010)

Man, they weren't shy about starting to shed supporting characters tonight, were they? Richard, BANG! Zoe, BANG! Whidmore, BANG! Smokey was tying up loose ends faster than you could say "Dharma Initiative"!


----------



## Remus Lupin (May 19, 2010)

Jack7 said:


> I'd be shocked if Locke and Un-Locke don't have a confrontation.
> 
> By the way, my kid was jumping all around me this evening when I got in from training. Did anybody see the pic of Jack, his kid, and someone else? I just glanced it.
> 
> ...




It was Jack, his kid, and Christian.


----------



## John Crichton (May 19, 2010)

There is only one way this will end:  Jack vs. Locke.

It will be epic.


----------



## stonegod (May 19, 2010)

Ben double-cross in 3, 2, 1...


----------



## Starman (May 19, 2010)

I just had a thought. Jacob didn't tell Jack to not go into the Glowing Cave of Wonders, did he? Significant? Or just something the writers didn't feel a need to spell out?


----------



## Fast Learner (May 19, 2010)

Starman said:


> I just had a thought. Jacob didn't tell Jack to not go into the Glowing Cave of Wonders, did he? Significant? Or just something the writers didn't feel a need to spell out?




They spent a fair bit of time off in the distance, so it's likely safe to assume he was informed. If they'd shown that then it would be like putting a gun in act 1: we'd expect going in there to come to something new when in fact the "don't go in there" bit has already been used in the last episode.


----------



## Hand of Evil (May 19, 2010)

My thoughts...

Jack saves Flocke from death at Ben's hands.  Ben kills everyone else, with his C4, which sends them to the happy world.  

Everyone seems to have found love in the happy world but Jack, now I just have to see how he dies in that happy world that lets him stay on the island.  Jack will see them in the happy world and will be content.  

Who will be left with him...the man in black as Locke will be gone, no; it will just be Jack, there should only be one. 

Then again...it may just end up being Kate, to restart the cycle.


----------



## Elodan (May 19, 2010)

Enjoyed the episode but I would have appreciated it if someone asked what was so special about the light that needs protecting.


----------



## Diamond Cross (May 19, 2010)

Quite simply, it's the Fountain of Youth.


----------



## Hand of Evil (May 20, 2010)

Elodan said:


> Enjoyed the episode but I would have appreciated it if someone asked what was so special about the light that needs protecting.




It is the Grail, the Arc...it does not really matter, just that it is special, like what was in the case in Pulp fiction.    I don't think we will ever really know, just that it was wonderful, and meaningful.


----------



## Richards (May 20, 2010)

So in other words, it's the "MacGuffin."  

Kind of cool seeing Danielle Rousseau in last night's episode.  Ditto with Ana-Lucia.

Johnathan


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 20, 2010)

A lot of the details have been left vague, but I think we can surmise some things (off the top of my mind):

* The island has a huge pocket of electromagnetism at it's core, stronger that anywhere else (that we know of).

* Electromagnetism can be used to heal people, as claimed by the australian healer (played by Farscape's Scorpius) who Rose went to see. He said he protected/used a (much, much smaller) pocket of electromagnetic energy somewhere in australia's outback. This is how the island heals people.

* The electromagnetism seems to be strong enough to bend time and space as evidenced by the Dharma experiments. Explains the time travel and donkey wheel shenanigans.

* When people interact directly with the electromagnetism we see the light (like when Ben used the frozen donkey wheel or when Desmond didn't put in the numbers). So the light is the energy or is a byproduct of the energy.

* The temple had a healing pool. The waters from the light caves make you immortal. Maybe the light cave stream is the source of the pool's waters or maybe they come into contact to the energy from a less concentrated place.

* The australian healer claimed he controlled/channelled his pocket's energy. Maybe Jacob can do the same, which might explain how he brings people to the island.

* Some people are special in different ways. Like Walt with his Omen thing, how Hurley and the Man in Black could see dead people, Miles can speak to the recently dead and Desmond has a resistance to the energy. This may or may not be connected to the energy. Desmond at least probably is, Hurley didn't see dead people before he came to the island.

* The incredible series of coincidences that connect all the Losties together could be, like claimed by many (Locke, Eko, Jack in later seasons), fate or it could be Jacob's machinations.


As for the alternate timeline, the numbers or whatever happened to create the Smoke Monster, I have no idea.


----------



## FoxWander (May 20, 2010)

Viking Bastard said:


> As for the alternate timeline...




This isn't a specific reply to you VB, you just happened to close with a bit about the alternate timeline and I've had something to post about that since about episode 3 this season. Excellent observations btw. Probably about as good an explanation as we're likely to get.

About that alternate timeline- there's nothing "alternate" about it. It's what's going to happen whenever the losties on the island do whatever they do that sinks the island. Somehow that event will actually occur in the past (probably more flashes through time as whatever happens actually starts happening) and far enough back that Jacob never has a chance to interfere with the losties lives resulting in the "alternate" timeline we've been watching in the flash sideways.

Essentially it's their way of showing us what happened to all the characters after the island gets destroyed rather than just running the whole season, culminating with destroying the island and ending it there with no follow on- which would outrage a lot of people. Or showing all the "flash sideways" stuff as the second half of the season  which would resolve everything but inevitably feel like it was dragging on too long. By showing the "ending" concurrent with the actions that cause it, they avoid both problems AND get everybody wondering "what the heck is going on" all over again.

As for what Desmond is doing in the sideways-verse, his unique ability allows him to know/see the other timeline. He's acting as an agent of fate, or something, and giving everyone that final "course correction" so they end up where they should be. Kate will go to the concert and meet Jack (and somehow be proven innocent so she won't be a fugitive). Charlotte will be there also (according to Miles) so Faraday will probably wind up there as well and get to meet her. Hurley is taking Sayid to somewhere he'll be able to escape with Nadia. And somehow Sawyer will meet up with Juliet- probably because she's Jack's ex so she'll be at the concert and Sawyer will decide to accept Miles' invitation and go there too.

And btw, if I'm right about this (and I think I am) the entire show will turn out to have never actually happened in the first place, leaving us with the ultimate "it was all a dream" ending!


----------



## John Crichton (May 20, 2010)

FoxWander said:


> And btw, if I'm right about this (and I think I am) the entire show will turn out to have never actually happened in the first place, leaving us with the ultimate "it was all a dream" ending!



I don't think anything you just described is where they are heading at all.  These writers aren't the type to have a cop out ending like that.


----------



## Starman (May 20, 2010)

John Crichton said:


> I don't think anything you just described is where they are heading at all.  These writers aren't the type to have a cop out ending like that.




I agree. Lots of people (including me) would be very upset if that is what happened.


----------



## FoxWander (May 20, 2010)

But you see- it's not a cop-out ending at all. It's not a "crap where do we go from here... err- Bobby dreamed it all" like Dallas. All the events in the show would have actually happened it's just that, because of the time travel, those events will result, effectively, in none of them having happened in the first place. The end result of the actions in the show will wipe out the timeline they occurred in. It's not a cop-out, just a paradox. But thematically, it's equivalent to an "all just a dream" ending.


----------



## Fast Learner (May 20, 2010)

I agree that it's not a cop-out. It all did happen, but time travel effectively reverted everything. I wouldn't mind that at all.

However, despite it being an excellent theory (and I like it), I don't think that's how it's going to come together. I think sideways-Desmond is up to something that will make things turn out differently, with it all having happened. But that's just a guess.


----------



## John Crichton (May 21, 2010)

FoxWander said:


> But you see- it's not a cop-out ending at all. It's not a "crap where do we go from here... err- Bobby dreamed it all" like Dallas. All the events in the show would have actually happened it's just that, because of the time travel, those events will result, effectively, in none of them having happened in the first place. The end result of the actions in the show will wipe out the timeline they occurred in. It's not a cop-out, just a paradox. But thematically, it's equivalent to an "all just a dream" ending.



And ya know what kinda ending that is?  A cop out and really lame.

And the writers know that, thankfully.


----------



## Janx (May 21, 2010)

FoxWander said:


> But you see- it's not a cop-out ending at all. It's not a "crap where do we go from here... err- Bobby dreamed it all" like Dallas. All the events in the show would have actually happened it's just that, because of the time travel, those events will result, effectively, in none of them having happened in the first place. The end result of the actions in the show will wipe out the timeline they occurred in. It's not a cop-out, just a paradox. But thematically, it's equivalent to an "all just a dream" ending.




In the "it was all just a dream" we end up right where we started.

I suspect that's not going to be the case.

Pre-crash, the lives of all the charcters did suck.  Jacob said as much.

This alternate reality shows their lives to be better, for the most part.

Additionally, it looks like Desmond is working to reconnect people to the relationships that had Love.  Even Charlie will no doubt meet Claire at the concert if this holds true.

Odds are good, the events of the final episode on the island will culminate in the alternate reality becoming the new real reality.

What will remain to be seen is of course, what is the plot twist that generates this final reality shift.

Since the survivors don't really have any new resources (Jack being the new Protector doesn't give him any more than Jacob had and failed with). 

Possible twists:
Locke is actually successful in leaving the island, and that causes the alternate reality to become actual.

Locke WAS successful and formed the new reality, and Desmond is getting the survivors back together (with the memories returning) and they will then do something to defeat Locke.

Locke is somehow killed by Jack and friends, and that causes the alternate reality to become actual


----------



## coyote6 (May 21, 2010)

Janx said:


> Pre-crash, the lives of all the charcters did suck.  Jacob said as much.
> 
> This alternate reality shows their lives to be better, for the most part.




Only for a few, IMO. Jack's life seems to be better -- he has a son, whom he has (re-)connected with. Miles' life seems better, certainly; Hurley's, definitely. Sun & Jin -- maybe; they aren't married, but they are together. Claire's life seems slightly better, in that she's met her father's family.

But Kate? Still a murderer, still wanted. I'd say Sayid's life is worse than it was before Oceanic 815 -- without Oceanic 815, he wouldn't have become Ben's assassin, then Locke Monster's, or felt it necessary to blow himself up. Sideways, he's a murderer anyways, and still doesn't get Nadia.

Sawyer's life -- well, he's a cop rather than a crook, but he's still haunted by what happened to his parents. He's a better person, I'd say, but he doesn't seem any happier.

Locke's life -- seems like a wash; he seems to have gotten along with his father in the sideways-verse, rather than being used and abused by him. But he's also responsible for said father's current state, which has clearly tormented him.

(Oh, and since Locke's dad was the original Sawyer, his condition means that Det. Ford will never get the closure he wants. There's no likely way he'll ever even find out who Sawyer was, barring Desmond ex machina.)

Daniel isn't a scientist, and didn't seem really happy about his life in the brief bit we saw of him. 

Charlie's life wasn't better before his near-death experience showed him the "other side", and I'm not sure he's better post-OD.

Ana Lucia is a cop on the take. Libby's in a home. Ben is a wimpy teacher. 

Alex & Danielle do seem better.

Most of the other Others & Widmore's crew seem to have ended up as gangsters.

Desmond, pre-near-death-revelation from Charlie, was employed, but I'm not sure how happy he really was. While he wasn't stuck in the hatch hitting buttons, he also had never met Penny.

Juliet is an FBI agent, but her son is mixed up with the aliens invading her planet and she's secretly a member of a "terrorist" group, so who knows how long she'll stay a Fed. Oh, wait, wrong show. 

I don't know that I'd say they are all better off in the sideways-verse than they were before they got on Oceanic 815. Some yes, some no, some eh.


----------



## stonegod (May 21, 2010)

From the Internet: "Last scene of Lost: A snow globe containing Smokey in a shower on top of sled near the ruins of the Statue of Liberty that was a cross-dressing male ghost all along."


----------



## GrayLinnorm (May 22, 2010)

stonegod said:


> From the Internet: "Last scene of Lost: A snow globe containing Smokey in a shower on top of sled near the ruins of the Statue of Liberty that was a cross-dressing male ghost all along."



 In Bob Newhart's bedroom.


----------



## coyote6 (May 22, 2010)

Dammit, people, haven't you heard of spoiler tags?!?!111!!

But really, if they had Bob Newhart in the finale, or better, Newhart & Ed Begley Jr (from St. Elsewhere), that could be kind of awesome.


----------



## FoxWander (May 22, 2010)

Janx said:


> In the "it was all just a dream" we end up right where we started.
> 
> I suspect that's not going to be the case.
> 
> ...




How are any of these endings different from what I'm proposing will happen? Cause what I'm basically saying is that the resolution of what is happening on the island will cause the "alternate" reality we've been watching this whole season to be what _actually_ happened... so it's not alternate at all. Which is really the only ending that makes any sense and kind of the only way they can go with all of this. Somehow the flash-sideways-verse has to actually come about. It's the only way the show can actually get a "happy ending."

My observation (which seems to be pissing off/annoying some people) is pointing out that such an ending effectively makes the entire show "all a dream" in that it will have never actually happened because the action at the end of the show will reset reality, making the "alternate" reality the only thing that really happened. 

Or it'll be that snowglobe thing and all of this will turn out to be part of the Tommy Westphall-verse!


----------



## coyote6 (May 22, 2010)

Maybe they'll start their own crossover-verse. So Sydney Bristow shows up at the last minute to kill Smokey and rescue them, then drops them off in Los Angeles, where they are met by Michael Abaddon, who not only survived but reveals himself to have been undercover FBI Special Agent Broyles all along. Walter Bishop, it seems, did some work for the Dharma Initiative, deciphering notes left by Milo Rambaldi, when he was younger. 

The island's true nature is that it's a nexus of realities, and the castaways have been bouncing from parallel universe to parallel universe. The Man in Black was transformed into Smokey by exposure to magnetically polarized red mercury. Now they need to take that red mercury into the future, so Starfleet can try to use it to save Vulcan.

Unfortunately, they red mercury was at Massive Dynamics in NYC, and a giant monster crawled out of the ocean and ate it.

Now the fate of the world rests on one woman's shoulders: Felicity Porter.


----------



## Asmo (May 22, 2010)

coyote6 said:


> Now the fate of the world rests on one woman's shoulders: Felicity Porter.




What? The only possible person that could handle this situation is a certain FBI agent - Dana Scully (with a little help from her parter, Fox Mulder).

Asmo


----------



## coyote6 (May 22, 2010)

Asmo said:


> What? The only possible person that could handle this situation is a certain FBI agent - Dana Scully (with a little help from her parter, Fox Mulder).




I think that's the Fox-verse crossover, not the Abrams-verse crossover.

But if Agents Scully & Mulder need help, they can always call CTU and get Bauer to come help -- that'll guarantee everything will be wrapped up in a day!

Granted, some cities may need to be nuked, and it might cost a president or two, but hey!


----------



## RangerWickett (May 22, 2010)

Man, I'm imagining the 21st century version of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen now. 

Jack Bauer
James Bond
Hugo "Hurley" Reyes
Harry Potter
Bella

This is harder because I'm trying to only go for folks who were prominent after the millennium (so Mulder & Scully is a stretch, and no Rambo), and that aren't already part of a super group (so no Avengers or members of the Justice League).


----------



## Janx (May 22, 2010)

FoxWander said:


> How are any of these endings different from what I'm proposing will happen? Cause what I'm basically saying is that the resolution of what is happening on the island will cause the "alternate" reality we've been watching this whole season to be what _actually_ happened... so it's not alternate at all. Which is really the only ending that makes any sense and kind of the only way they can go with all of this. Somehow the flash-sideways-verse has to actually come about. It's the only way the show can actually get a "happy ending."
> 
> My observation (which seems to be pissing off/annoying some people) is pointing out that such an ending effectively makes the entire show "all a dream" in that it will have never actually happened because the action at the end of the show will reset reality, making the "alternate" reality the only thing that really happened.
> 
> Or it'll be that snowglobe thing and all of this will turn out to be part of the Tommy Westphall-verse!




My points support your idea.

In Dallas, the Just a dream ending leaves at exactly wher eyou started at the beginning of the season.

An alternate reality shift doesn't do that.

Which is why I pointed out that pre-island the surviviors lives sucked.  alternate reality with no island, their lives are better.  Thus, when it happens, it is NOT the same as being just a dream.  An actual change has occurred.  It's simply not a change the characters may be aware of.


----------



## coyote6 (May 22, 2010)

RangerWickett said:


> Man, I'm imagining the 21st century version of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen now.
> 
> Jack Bauer
> James Bond
> ...




Ooh, neat idea, though it's a huge thread drift. 

I dunno if you could/should count Bond; sure, there've been some great Bond movies this century, but he's got such strong 20th century roots. Maybe the Matt Damon/film version of Jason Bourne, since the movies were all 2002 & later (and, frankly, a good chunk of the style of the Craig Bond movies can be traced to Bourne).

I've not read or seen the Twilight movies, but if Bella gets reinterpreted a la Mina, that might be neat. Bella, post-Slayer training. 

Edit: I think I'd still prefer Selene (from Underworld) or Alice (from Resident Evil), though.

Coming back to Lost, while Hurley would be amusing, there are a bunch of Losties that could work. Sawyer's pretty competent in a number of areas, and is amoral enough to be interesting. Sayid would be fun, but with Bauer around, it would probably degenerate into torture porn pretty quick.


----------



## John Crichton (May 22, 2010)

FoxWander said:


> How are any of these endings different from what I'm proposing will happen? Cause what I'm basically saying is that the resolution of what is happening on the island will cause the "alternate" reality we've been watching this whole season to be what _actually_ happened... so it's not alternate at all. Which is really the only ending that makes any sense and kind of the only way they can go with all of this.  Somehow the flash-sideways-verse has to actually come about. It's the only way the show can actually get a "happy ending."



Who says it has to have a happy ending?  That would invalidate all the actions that we've seen.  The characters in the sideways flashes are not the same characters we've been following since S1.  Lost has always been a show about consequences and choices.  Having none of those events take place in the end doesn't go with what the show has been about.

Your proposed ending offers no satisfaction, closure or a resolution to the story being told.



FoxWander said:


> (which seems to be pissing off/annoying some people)



Perhaps you are seeing things that aren't there.  



FoxWander said:


> My observation (which seems to be pissing off/annoying some people) is pointing out that such an ending effectively makes the entire show "all a dream" in that it will have never actually happened because the action at the end of the show will reset reality, making the "alternate" reality the only thing that really happened.



And I'll say again that such an ending would be a cop out.  You brought up what happened with Bobby in Dallas.  That was lame.  Historically so that it will be mocked for all time.

Folks can justify it all they want but having a WHATEVER wipe out all that's happened over the course of the entire show is lame.  Also, it would be pointless.  The show is over so there is no need to wipe things clean, read: reboot.  Besides the main character's fates the sideways flash reveal is the only thing left to resolve besides stopping Smokey at this point.  It's all but guaranteed that the two resolutions will have a strong connection.


----------



## RichCsigs (May 22, 2010)

Since near the beginning of this season (maybe around episode 3), I've been stating that the flash-sideways are actually flashbacks.

* Juliette sets off the nuke, sinking the island and giving us the sideways time line (think "Biff gives the almanac to his younger self" in Back To The Future II).
* Everybody's lives take different directions.
* Eventually something will happen to get them all to realize that the universe is "wrong".
* They will do something to "correct" things, leading to the beginning of the season with them in the present at the blown up hatch, and not remembering the sideways time line, since it "never happened".

Is that what's going to happen?  I don't know for sure.  But I still think I'm right.  We'll see tomorrow night.


----------



## Diamond Cross (May 24, 2010)

Gilligan's Island was the first Lost.


----------



## Hand of Evil (May 24, 2010)

There were no surviors of Oceanic 815.


----------



## LightPhoenix (May 24, 2010)

It very much reminded me of a book, "The Years of Rice and Salt," by Kim Stanley Robinson.


----------



## stonegod (May 24, 2010)

stonegod said:


> Its going to end with an eye closing. Bookends and all that.



Yup. Called it.


----------



## Jack7 (May 24, 2010)

*Like Church for television.*
Even my wife got it this time.

Damn, but I'm gonna miss that show.

_Requiem in Prodigious, Lost._


----------



## RangerWickett (May 24, 2010)

I enjoyed it.

I will begin my LOST game* soon. It amuses me that the plot basically comes down to: "An immortal bad guy wants to get off the island. For him to do that, he has to climb down a hole and unplug a drain. That will cause the island to sink, but renders him mortal. You can keep the island from sinking if you put the plug back in the drain within a few hours. He doesn't know where the hole is, and the guy who does know is a secretive douche who refuses to explain things to people. Hope you can get out alive."


(After an evening of friends complaining about how the characters would have fared better if they'd acted like RPG characters instead of folks in a drama, those of us in my social group who watch the show found 4 folks who haven't seen much of it. They'll play Jack, Sawyer, Sayid, and Charlie, and we'll let them sandbox the island to see if they figure things out and save the day.)


----------



## Remus Lupin (May 24, 2010)

So, was that worth six years of my life? Yeah, I think so. Not perfect, but satisfying.


----------



## David Howery (May 24, 2010)

well, that was an unexpected explanation of the sideways timeline... touching, but unexpected...


----------



## dravot (May 24, 2010)

David Howery said:


> well, that was an unexpected explanation of the sideways timeline... touching, but unexpected...




Pocket heaven


----------



## Fast Learner (May 24, 2010)

Truly excellent ending. Stunningly, it left me not caring what exactly the light is and who built the plug and why the time jumping and who built the giant statue and... I don't actually mind not knowing. Lovely, beautiful ending that left me completely satisfied.


----------



## Wycen (May 24, 2010)

I don't care about the characters, did they explain anything about the island?


----------



## Fast Learner (May 24, 2010)

Definitely not a show for you.


----------



## Mistwell (May 24, 2010)

I enjoyed it, but not nearly enough answers.

And they KNEW fans wanted answers, and advertised this season as one giving answers.  This idea that it isn't the show for you if you want answers? Yeah, did yah SEE the ads for this season? All focused on answers.  They use that word...this season, we get all the answers. 

What is the island? What is the light? The numbers? Why did some people heal? Why did some people get the power to speak with the dead? What evil entered Sayid in the pool?  What did smokey become smokey from the light? Why didn't kids live on the island, and why was aaron originally so special? What was the sickness? What was up with Walt's powers? What was the deal with the four toed statue and all the hieroglyphs? The time travel? And on and on.


----------



## weem (May 24, 2010)

Wycen said:


> I don't care about the characters, did they explain anything about the island?




Yea, the show IS the characters. If you don't care about them, the rest doesn't matter.

I liked the ending - it may not have been entirely unpredictable, but I enjoyed it.  

It's been an amazing show.


----------



## Mistwell (May 24, 2010)

weem said:


> Yea, the show IS the characters. If you don't care about them, the rest doesn't matter.
> 
> I liked the ending - it may not have been entirely unpredictable, but I enjoyed it.
> 
> It's been an amazing show.




This "the show is the characters" theme feels made up after the fact to adapt to what happened, rather than what actually happened with this show.

Again, the entire ad campaign for the final season was focused on answers, not characters.  Most of the fan base was built on mystery, not characters.  

Plus, the show was often NOT about putting characters first.  They routinely kill characters.  They lose other characters every season based on real world things like two actors getting arrested in a drunk driving incident, another wanting to leave the show (Eko), another growing too fast (Walt)...don't tell me this whole show was about characters when characters took second place to larger mysteries and plot often.

Ask any random person on the street what Lost was about, and they will likely mention numbers, and a hatch, and experiments, and a ton of non-character-related themes.  They will probably mention any of a number of season finales, which were mostly plot related, not character related.

Yeah, the "it's all about the characters" is an excuse.  It was sometimes about the characters, but often about plot.  And they didn't answer a lot of major questions they asked.  Entire themes set up from the beginning of the show were just entirely dropped unanswered.

Again, I liked the ending, but it was not enough.  They needed to answer at least a handfull of questions.


----------



## John Crichton (May 24, 2010)

Mistwell said:


> This "the show is the characters" theme feels made up after the fact to adapt to what happened, rather than what actually happened with this show.



I've always thought it was about the characters.


----------



## Fast Learner (May 24, 2010)

Yup, I've always felt it was a character-driven show with some fun mysteries around them to keep it interesting. They answered questions about the characters very much to my satisfaction.


----------



## John Crichton (May 24, 2010)

Fast Learner said:


> Yup, I've always felt it was a character-driven show with some fun mysteries around them to keep it interesting. They answered questions about the characters very much to my satisfaction.



Absolutely.  Without the characters the rest of it is meaningless.

That's why I really don't at all mind the loose ends and even completely ignoring some of the stuff they left on the floor a log time ago.


----------



## Hand of Evil (May 24, 2010)

It was a good ending, reminded me a lot of Magnum, P.I., before they brought it back for a another season.  

Yes, I want to see something on Hugo's island with Ben as number 2 but as endings go, this was good.


----------



## Frostmarrow (May 24, 2010)

Why couldn't just Cthulhu have risen from the ocean floor and killed 1d6 survivors per scene? That would have explained everything in an insane and incomprehensible way and everybody would have died.


----------



## Janx (May 24, 2010)

RangerWickett said:


> I enjoyed it.
> 
> I will begin my LOST game* soon. It amuses me that the plot basically comes down to: "An immortal bad guy wants to get off the island. For him to do that, he has to climb down a hole and unplug a drain. That will cause the island to sink, but renders him mortal. You can keep the island from sinking if you put the plug back in the drain within a few hours. He doesn't know where the hole is, and the guy who does know is a secretive douche who refuses to explain things to people. Hope you can get out alive."
> QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## weem (May 24, 2010)

-- Something weird happening - my quotes being duplicated etc - see next page for reply --


----------



## weem (May 24, 2010)

Mistwell said:


> This "the show is the characters" theme feels made up after the fact to adapt to what happened, rather than what actually happened with this show.




/shrug

I have been telling that to my brother (that this is about the characters) since Season 2. It's a character show. the things I have enjoyed the most were the changes in people from beginning to end. It was gradual and made sense based on what was happening.

The writers said it is about the characters, and their changing over the course of the show was obviously important to the story. You may disagree, and that's your right - but I think many would disagree.



Mistwell said:


> Again, the entire ad campaign for the final season was focused on answers, not characters.  Most of the fan base was built on mystery, not characters.




I can see that - Locke saying he was going to tell them (you) everything etc. But, I feel like it answered what mattered, at least to me.



Mistwell said:


> Ask any random person on the street what Lost was about, and they will likely mention numbers, and a hatch, and experiments, and a ton of non-character-related themes.  They will probably mention any of a number of season finales, which were mostly plot related, not character related.




Most random people off the street didn't see very episode I would imagine. Not that seeing every episode will do it for everyone, but most people who say, "uhh, I think it's about numbers? and a hatch?" probably didn't see much of the show - that's the kind of stuff you get from commercials.



Mistwell said:


> Again, I liked the ending, but it was not enough.  They needed to answer at least a handfull of questions.




I feel ya. If they made a website and said, "this site answers every question you could have", I would be right there reading it like most people. I would rush to. But, I don't NEED that. Some people do, and some don't. I'm not saying you do, I'm just speaking generally, since we're talking about people in general.


----------



## Sir Brennen (May 24, 2010)

Janx said:


> The island is a sort of purgatory, where souls get sorted out and then head for where they're heading (presumably the light).
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...



Nope. The island was real, those that left on the plane left very much alive, Hugo and Ben live out the rest of their days on the Island. Things really happened. They really mattered.

The Sideways world was the self-created Purgatory of the Losties, where they were able to re-connect by recalling their *real* experiences on the Island.

The conversation between Jack and Des before Des went down into the light brought up the question very clearly as to whether their actions mattered. Jack insisted they did. His father's explanation in Sideways world confirmed this (along with the long sought "Attaboy" Jack was seeking from Dad.)


----------



## John Crichton (May 24, 2010)

Sir Brennen said:


> Nope. The island was real, those that left on the plane left very much alive, Hugo and Ben live out the rest of their days on the Island. Things really happened. They really mattered.



I'll just quote this cuz it's really important for anyone trying to put a finger on exactly what happened and where they all were the entire time.

It wasn't hell like Ricard said.  Or an alternate reality like it seemed like where it was going all season.  It happened.  All of it.  And it mattered.


----------



## David Howery (May 24, 2010)

Lost reminds me a lot of The X Files... a long series of weird events, a back story that we get in bits and pieces, and an ending that doesn't explain all the mystery... but it's still a hell of a ride...


----------



## coyote6 (May 24, 2010)

Yup. The sideways-verse was all a collective dream of the individuals as they died, despite the fact that they died over a range of years (Hurley and Ben might not have died for centuries, if they followed in Jacob & Richard's footsteps). In it, they found their lost loved ones, and together prepared to let go and move on. 

Meanwhile, on the island, Jack sacrificed himself, Hurley & Ben got to run the island (will Ben say, "da plane! Da plane!" if another plane lands nearby?), and Frank, Richard, Miles, James, Kate, and Claire escaped on the jet. Kate probably gets to be super-celebrity, having survived two plane crashes at sea. 

Rose and Bernard (and Vincent!) live happily ever after on the island, presumably.

My one question: what happened to Desmond? He was on the island with Ben & Hurley. He didn't get on the plane, and they didn't say what happened to him.

I think that, with Hurley running the show, Desmond was able to get on the sailboat and sail back to Penny and his kid. 

Kate shooting the Locke Monster was awesome. "I saved a bullet for you."


----------



## Diamond Cross (May 24, 2010)

It was the flash-sideways that was the alternate universe.

But as for myself I'm somewhat disappointed in the ending.

First of all, Jack shouldn't have died. He was given the power of immortality by Jacob through spring waters. Now, I can see how removing the cork can temporary disrupt that, but he was point blank when it reset. And unless you have to drink from the waters again to restart the immortality, being there point blank should have been enough.

This same disruption allowed Kate to shoot smokey and kill him. 

So I guess the rules were just  things that Jacob made up. After all, when they were kids his brother said "when it's your game you can make up the rules". So I guess that's how Kate was able to kill smokey and smokey was able to kill Jack. Prior to this, smokey could not directly kill Jacob because that was the rule.

The smoke monster will never be fully explained. I halfway expected Jack and anybody else down there to be transformed as well. Or to see more smoke monsters come out of the hole after the cork was removed. So I guess there was only the one. Maybe you have to be killed, like Jacob killed his brother, in order to transform?

The sinking of the island will never be fully showed. I fully expected to see it sink in this episode.

If the springs give true immortality, Hugo and Jack shouldn't have been in the Church at all at the end. True immortality means you simply don't die and you'll even outlive the universe. So I guess longevity is the operating word. But this is also a matter of semantics. 

I can see all others being in the church because I think that when the cork was removed it would've disrupted their immortality. But the difference is the distance. Remember, JAck was point blank when he restarted the well.

And the final kicker is....


The flash sideways was actually the afterlife. I tell ya, if my afterlife is no different than my life, then I will be really disappointed. I really wanted it to be a true sci-fi style alternate universe rather than an afterlife situation. But I guess technically the afterlife is some sort of alternate dimension. But that's a matter of semantics.

And of course, Kate's horse will never be explained.

Still, overall I liked the episode. So I give it a B.


----------



## weem (May 24, 2010)

Diamond Cross said:


> If the springs give true immortality, Hugo and Jack shouldn't have been in the Church at all at the end. True immortality means you simply don't die and you'll even outlive the universe. So I guess longevity is the operating word. But this is also a matter of semantics.




I kind of took the drinking from the spring thing as more a faith thing then a magical thing.

Jack was asked by Sawyer something to the effect of, "do you feel anything" (after drinking the water given by Jacob) and Jack said he didn't feel any different. And when Jack had Hurley drink, it was out of any old thing (the bottle) with no words chanted or anything. Hurley was not suddenly enlightened, and in fact he was more scared than ever.

If it were truly magical itself, anyone could have simply drank some up. I think it was more a show of faith, to drink from the cup - but that's just my initial thought.


----------



## John Crichton (May 24, 2010)

Diamond Cross said:


> If the springs give true immortality, Hugo and Jack shouldn't have been in the Church at all at the end. True immortality means you simply don't die and you'll even outlive the universe. So I guess longevity is the operating word. But this is also a matter of semantics.



It shouldn't be at all assumed that Ben or Hurley were immortal.  They do the job as long as they can and nothing more.  All the protectors eventually die and move on.  Even Richard.


----------



## Fast Learner (May 24, 2010)

It's quite possible that the immortality is passed on. "Mom" passes it to Jacob, who passes it to Jack, who passes it to Hurley, who passed it on to someone years/centuries/millennia later.

I don't see the flash-sideways as _the_ afterlife, but rather as either a sort of temporary construct within an afterlife or, more likely in my mind, an opportunity for reflection before moving into a full-on afterlife (which could be a heaven-like thing, or reincarnation, or whatever). Remember that Christian Shepherd said it was an opportunity for remembering.


----------



## stonegod (May 24, 2010)

coyote6 said:


> My one question: what happened to Desmond? He was on the island with Ben & Hurley. He didn't get on the plane, and they didn't say what happened to him.
> 
> I think that, with Hurley running the show, Desmond was able to get on the sailboat and sail back to Penny and his kid.



Very, very likely. Another bookend (leaving the same way on the same boat he arrived on).


Diamond Cross said:


> The flash sideways was actually the afterlife. I tell ya, if my afterlife is no different than my life, then I will be really disappointed.



Its not "the" afterlife but a "stage" in the afterlife. A Purgatory. Or Gehenna. Or the Shadowfell. Likely a few other religious (or RPG) analogs that escape me. Its an intermediary stage between death and the final beyond.


----------



## John Crichton (May 24, 2010)

Fast Learner said:


> It's quite possible that the immortality is passed on. "Mom" passes it to Jacob, who passes it to Jack, who passes it to Hurley, who passed it on to someone years/centuries/millennia later.
> 
> I don't see the flash-sideways as _the_ afterlife, but rather as either a sort of temporary construct within an afterlife or, more likely in my mind, an opportunity for reflection before moving into a full-on afterlife (which could be a heaven-like thing, or reincarnation, or whatever). Remember that Christian Shepherd said it was an opportunity for remembering.



Yup.  He said that it was something they made together.

That means it's different for everyone.

It also means it's possible Ben is roasting in hell somewhere.

It's all open to interpretation which is totally fine by me as the show has always been about that.


----------



## Sir Brennen (May 24, 2010)

stonegod said:


> Its not "the" afterlife but a "stage" in the afterlife. A Purgatory. Or Gehenna. Or the Shadowfell. Likely a few other religious (or RPG) analogs that escape me. Its an intermediary stage between death and the final beyond.



I think the phrase you're looking for is "The Lobby"


----------



## Remus Lupin (May 24, 2010)

I agree that it's supposed to be a construct, a realm of reflection. Not, NB, purgatory in any traditional sense, but LIKE purgatory in that people move on when they're ready. That's why Ben stayed. Of all of them, he still had a lot more to work out (perhaps more even than Syaid), particularly with Danielle and Alex.

It does raise a question though -- what happens to all of those left behind, like not only Ben, but also Faraday, Eloise, Charlotte, the rest of the members of Driveshaft, etc. If this world is simply a reflection of the collective will of the castaways, does it disappear with them? What happens to Jack's son? It's implied by Locke's comment that Jack's son exists only insofar as he's necessary in this world -- "You don't have a son."

So, when the last Islander moves on, will this pocket universe cease to exist?

As for the nature of the afterlife, it's pretty clearly some version of the Christian heaven, to which they have been guided, in the end, by Christian Shepherd (the obviousness of which even Kate comments on!), but I liked the line: "Let's go find out," thus leaving the whole thing up in the air to some degree.

Despite all of the claims along the way that this was science fiction, in the end it was pretty clearly a straight up Christian allegory.


----------



## coyote6 (May 24, 2010)

Kate's horse must've been Smokey, messing with people (like Christian's initial appearances on the island, and some of the bear appearances, and so many other things). 

For me, here's the thing: it (the show) was both a kind of spiritual allegory (Christian, yes, but there was enough dharma being tossed around that calling it solely Christian seems wrong), and a sci-fi tale. Yes, there was the afterlife, and redemption, and good & evil, and choices, and the meaning of actions & those choices. There were also electromagnetic phenomenon, psychic powers (at least three -- Hurley, Miles, and Walt were all psychic in some way), time travel, teleportation, and who knows what. 

The island's light was somehow tied into both the spacetime continuum and the EM spectrum (get your Grand Unified Theory, right here), _and_ -- if Jacob is to be believed -- something of the (metaphysical) source of life itself. 

That mystery -- what it was, exactly -- was left unexplained. Indeed, I don't think anyone on the show ever knew what it was; it was supposed to be ineffable, and thus would never be explained.


----------



## Mistwell (May 24, 2010)

Janx said:


> RangerWickett said:
> 
> 
> > I enjoyed it.
> ...


----------



## coyote6 (May 24, 2010)

BTW, did anyone else see the "alternate endings" on Jimmy Kimmel Live?


----------



## Diamond Cross (May 24, 2010)

John Crichton said:


> It shouldn't be at all assumed that Ben or Hurley were immortal.  They do the job as long as they can and nothing more.  All the protectors eventually die and move on.  Even Richard.




The reason why I presume immortality is because Richard didn't age because he was touched by Jacob and Jacob was presumably centuries old.


----------



## RangerWickett (May 24, 2010)

Yes, there was reality and it mattered, so 5.5 seasons of the show were important to the plot. That still leaves half this last season which was presented as being important somehow, when all it was was an extended, interwoven denouement. 

Seeing it with hindsight, I still feel like they chose this ending very late in the show's run. Like middle-of-this-season late. The resolution doesn't seem to match with other things they hinted at throughout season 6.

Sure, maybe Juliet, dying in the hole, somehow saw into this pocket heaven and decided to quote it to Sawyer before she died, but then why did she say, "It worked," as if in reference to their desired goal of creating an alternate timeline?

Sure, maybe Smokey was just blowing smoke up Sayid's ass when he said that he could give Sayid exactly what he desired, but it sure sounded like Smokey thought there was some way to create an alternate reality.

And I suppose Desmond, when zapped with electromagnetism by Widmore, had a near-death experience and somehow managed to share his consciousness between reality and the timeless pocket heaven, but in the flash sideways Faraday makes it sound like setting off the nuke actually did something. If we accept that the flash sidewayses were just glimpses of the pocket heaven, then the entire nuke thing was kinda pointless.


The rewrites and continual changes to the 'truth' behind the show are egregious enough that they keep me from enjoying it without reservation.  Like I said, I enjoyed it, and as a character drama it was really good. But as a sci-fi/fantasy show with a consistent world, it disappoints me.


----------



## stonegod (May 24, 2010)

coyote6 said:


> BTW, did anyone else see the "alternate endings" on Jimmy Kimmel Live?



I did. The first was a groaner, the second a nice send up, the last meh.


----------



## weem (May 24, 2010)

coyote6 said:


> BTW, did anyone else see the "alternate endings" on Jimmy Kimmel Live?




I did. They were okay (imo).


----------



## coyote6 (May 24, 2010)

Jacob clearly wasn't immortal; he didn't age, but he got stabbed to death, though that required some particular (vaguely defined) circumstances for it to happen. 

So, actual "never ever die" immortality didn't seem to be involved. 

Turning off the lights seemed to nullify the "can't be killed" clause for everyone; Jack got mortally wounded, and Smokey got shot dead. Turning the lights back on was said to be fatal for anyone except maybe Desmond (though who knows if he was right about that), so Jack died anyways (either because the lights were just that dangerous, or because his immortality didn't come back with the lights, or because by choosing to sacrifice himself, he gave up the nigh-immortality). 

I would guess that Hurley and Ben got the Jacob-and-Richard abilities after the lights came back on. Eventually, they either got tired of doing the job(s), and stepped down, and then died; or, some other thing happened that bypassed their nigh-immortality, and they were killed. We don't know; that wasn't part of the Lost story. 

Though if ABC treats LOST the way most companies treat properties, in a couple of years there will be plenty of books, comics, and other spinoffs that will explain what happened to everyone at all times of their lives, in excruciating detail.


----------



## John Crichton (May 24, 2010)

Diamond Cross said:


> The reason why I presume immortality is because Richard didn't age because he was touched by Jacob and Jacob was presumably centuries old.



Did you catch the part where he started to age again?


----------



## Wycen (May 24, 2010)

Frostmarrow said:


> Why couldn't just Cthulhu have risen from the ocean floor and killed 1d6 survivors per scene? That would have explained everything in an insane and incomprehensible way and everybody would have died.




Ding ding ding!  We have a winner!


----------



## Starman (May 24, 2010)

I'm still undecided on the finale. True to the series it has given me a lot to think about including whether or not I really liked how it all wrapped up. Still there were a few things I really liked.


Jack's death scene - Vincent lying beside him, the Ajira plane flying overhead, his eye closing.
Sawyer and Juliet's reunification.
Chesty's back!
The fact that they couldn't go on to heaven (or whatever) until they all came together.
The music!
Hurley getting the Island Protector job. He always felt like the right choice.


----------



## FoxWander (May 24, 2010)

Just got thru watching the end and I think I agree with RangerWickett- the ending didn't quite match or explain all the events of the show, which is disappointing, but it was still enjoyable. 

And I think I was kind of right about what I thought the flash-sideways were about- it _was_ their way of showing us the happy ending for all the characters. A way to give some kind of resolution to the characters after the events on the island. 

It wasn't the actual alternate reality/timeline I thought it was going to be though. But I wish it had been- not just because I would have been "right" though, but I think an ending that reset the timeline and made the flash-sideways alternate reality the actual reality would have felt like a more complete resolution of the show. Not only for the characters but for the plot. At the very least it would have given some meaning to what Juliet said before she died in the hole- and probably several other plot bits. It would have been a classic sci-fi ending that would have altered only the final 10 minutes of what we saw in the actual ending. 

I guess I would have preferred an actual happy ending rather than the we're-all-dead-so-now-we-can-pass-on-to-our happy ending. Oh well.


----------



## Diamond Cross (May 24, 2010)

John Crichton said:


> Did you catch the part where he started to age again?




No I didn't, actually.


----------



## weem (May 24, 2010)

Diamond Cross said:


> No I didn't, actually.




Miles noticed that Richard had a grey hair, and plucked it out for him.

Richard was surprised - when Miles asked him what was up, he said something to the effect of 'I realize I want to live' (I'm not sure it was exactly that, but close).


----------



## Sir Brennen (May 24, 2010)

weem said:


> Miles noticed that Richard had a grey hair, and plucked it out for him.
> 
> Richard was surprised - when Miles asked him what was up, he said something to the effect of 'I realize I want to live' (I'm not sure it was exactly that, but close).




Not just surprised, but pleased. I think there's a theme there - only the possibility of death gives life meaning.


----------



## coyote6 (May 24, 2010)

RangerWickett said:


> Sure, maybe Juliet, dying in the hole, somehow saw into this pocket heaven and decided to quote it to Sawyer before she died, but then why did she say, "It worked," as if in reference to their desired goal of creating an alternate timeline?




Well, she could have been wrong. That's one thing about Lost: the characters were _wrong_, a lot. How old are those bodies? Who should we trust? Should we keep pressing the button? We have to blow up the plane!

Even down to the final big play -- taking Desmond to the light -- Jack and Smokey thought they knew what the result would be, and that the other would be wrong. In fact, they were both kind of wrong, and kind of right; the island would've been destroyed (but it wasn't instant), and Smokey could then be killed (but it wasn't guaranteed -- good thing Kate saved a bullet). 

So, no reason to think Juliet was immune to being wrong.

On the other hand, setting off the nuke did reset the timeline, and put everyone back in the right temporal place. So it did "work", in that it fixed a problem, but Daniel & Jack were just wrong about what exactly it would do.


----------



## Sir Brennen (May 24, 2010)

Another random thought:

I like how the Island made sure that Jack didn't die alone (calling back to his dire warning in Season 1.)


----------



## Fast Learner (May 24, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> Despite all of the claims along the way that this was science fiction, in the end it was pretty clearly a straight up Christian allegory.




I would hardly call it Christian: the church in the end was very carefully shown to be multiply-denominational, and the spirituality shown could be a wide variety of religions. If I had to pick just one I'd call it New Thought, though it could easily fit within some versions of Buddhism or Hinduism.

And there was plenty of sci-fi, IMO.


----------



## Diamond Cross (May 24, 2010)

weem said:


> Miles noticed that Richard had a grey hair, and plucked it out for him.
> 
> Richard was surprised - when Miles asked him what was up, he said something to the effect of 'I realize I want to live' (I'm not sure it was exactly that, but close).





I thought you were referring to Jacob, not Richard.


----------



## weem (May 24, 2010)

Diamond Cross said:


> I thought you were referring to Jacob, not Richard.




It wasn't my reference - it was John Crichton's - I was just mentioning the scene


----------



## John Crichton (May 24, 2010)

Diamond Cross said:


> No I didn't, actually.



Ah, well that explains it!


----------



## LightPhoenix (May 24, 2010)

Fast Learner said:


> I would hardly call it Christian: the church in the end was very carefully shown to be multiply-denominational, and the spirituality shown could be a wide variety of religions. If I had to pick just one I'd call it New Thought, though it could easily fit within some versions of Buddhism or Hinduism.




I concur.  The ending was definitely more on the side of Buddhism or Hinduism.  Very specifically, the idea of a group of souls finding each other in the afterlife is very similar to Buddhist and Hindu beliefs about the afterlife.  A very reasonable interpretation of the ending would be that they all reincarnated together.


----------



## Remus Lupin (May 24, 2010)

Well, obviously YMMV. I don't deny there was a Hindu dimension to a lot of the material (not so much Buddhist, at least not obviously), but I think that the explicit direction of the plot, and a great deal of the symbolism, was emphatically accessing Christian tropes: Battle of good vs. evil, redemption, guilt, sin, saviors, etc. Plus, again, I think that when you're being ushered into the afterlife (from a putative purgatorial state) by a guy named "Christian Shepherd" it's hard to ignore the Chrisitan subtext to the whole thing.

That said, I can see you taking an alternative, less obvious reading, where the Island represents the wheel of Samsara, and the goal of the islanders is to earn enough good karma to escape the cycle of suffering. Thus leaving the Island represents the state of Moksha, which is attained by recognizing and living according to your proper Dharma.

I'm not saying that interpretation isn't there, but recognizing it requires a lot more effort than the much more overtly Christian themes.

Also, not trying to get into Eric's Grandma territory here, so mods please let me know if this is encroaching too much on real world religions here. I'm just trying to interpret the text.


----------



## Fast Learner (May 24, 2010)

It may be that we're talking past each other here: I'm talking about the island being a very real, physical place on the incarnated planet Earth that has some weird properties. While characters absolutely found redemption, purpose, etc. there, only the flash-sideways part was "unreal" and purely spiritual. As such, the fact that Jack's father's name is Christian Shepherd is amusing but not indicative of anything spiritual: he was a real dude with a real body living on the real Earth whose parents had a bad sense of humor.


----------



## Plane Sailing (May 24, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> Also, not trying to get into Eric's Grandma territory here, so mods please let me know if this is encroaching too much on real world religions here. I'm just trying to interpret the text.




All OK at the moment, it is a level of discussion appropriate to the conclusion of LOST.

Thanks everyone.


----------



## jaerdaph (May 24, 2010)

I really liked the ending and thought it was fitting for such an epic show. I was a little sad to learn that "flash sideways" time was what it was and Flight 815 from Sydney never did land at LAX and that all those who were killed over the years up to the end were truly dead, but enjoyed it nevertheless. 

It was a great, epic and groundbreaking show, and I will miss it.


----------



## Diamond Cross (May 25, 2010)

Another thought, if Michael is stuck on the island as is all the other souls who died there, how does Jack get to go to the afterlife?


----------



## stonegod (May 25, 2010)

Diamond Cross said:


> Another thought, if Michael is stuck on the island as is all the other souls who died there, how does Jack get to go to the afterlife?



I don't think its "all" folks, only some are doomed to that existence.


----------



## jaerdaph (May 25, 2010)

stonegod said:


> I don't think its "all" folks, only some are doomed to that existence.




That's the impression I got as well. Something similar was mentioned on Jimmy Kimmel afterwords too when the actor who played Michael was interviewed.  

I also think it was interesting that the last scene was the plane wreckage washing up on the beach and no survivors. Maybe the whole show took place in some sort of Limbo, and all the passengers had to come together and resolve their former lives while in that state to "move on". 

So many interpretations...


----------



## Starman (May 25, 2010)

Diamond Cross said:


> Another thought, if Michael is stuck on the island as is all the other souls who died there, how does Jack get to go to the afterlife?




Michael was stuck there because of his "sins." See his Lostpedia entry for more info.


----------



## John Crichton (May 25, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> Well, obviously YMMV. I don't deny there was a Hindu dimension to a lot of the material (not so much Buddhist, at least not obviously), but I think that the explicit direction of the plot, and a great deal of the symbolism, was emphatically accessing Christian tropes: Battle of good vs. evil, redemption, guilt, sin, saviors, etc. Plus, again, I think that when you're being ushered into the afterlife (from a putative purgatorial state) by a guy named "Christian Shepherd" it's hard to ignore the Chrisitan subtext to the whole thing.



From my limited understanding, those themes are in no way unique to Christianity.  In short, I disagree and very much think that the ending in the church wasn't representative of any religion but possibly all of them.


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 25, 2010)

I really liked the finale right up to the revelation of the sideway-verse. But I'm warming up to it.

I really liked the little touch of Ben staying behind in the "purgatory/pocket heaven" when the others left. He had some more soul searching to do—he wasn't ready to move on.


----------



## weem (May 25, 2010)

Viking Bastard said:


> I really liked the little touch of Ben staying behind in the "purgatory/pocket heaven" when the others left. He had some more soul searching to do—he wasn't ready to move on.




Yes!

He was by far my favorite character on the show, and that was a great moment as well as Hurley telling him he was a great #2, and the "you were a great #1" response.

When Hurley asked for his help earlier (when jack went down the hole) I said outloud to my wife, "what an odd pairing... I like it"... so when they said that and you realized they could have been paired up for a long time, that was REALLY cool.

They were polar opposites - it was so fitting.


----------



## Fast Learner (May 25, 2010)

My projected hope is that Hurley learned bravery from from Ben, but that more than anything Ben learned love from Hurley.


----------



## John Crichton (May 25, 2010)

I think it's going to take me a while longer to decide how I really feel about the last 15 minutes.  The rest of it was damn good with a few little glitches here and there.  As a finale it succeeded.


----------



## stonegod (May 25, 2010)

weem said:


> They were polar opposites - it was so fitting.



Ben is my favorite (as my status shows). We also wanted Ben as protector, but also knew Hurley would be involved (telegraphed last ep). Works well. 

I think Ben, like Eloise, did not want to leave the sideways because they had what they didn't in life. Alex or Faraday.


----------



## Mallus (May 25, 2010)

For most of the finale was a briskly-paced combination of grace notes and fan service which kept me thoroughly entertained, even though I'm hardly the biggest Lost fan. Then there's the end (of The End)... where Theme, and his sidekick Tone, finally ganged up on Plot, beat the living Hell out of him, and left him for dead (in a bamboo field).

Having nowhere else to go, I can't really blame them for ending up there. It was sweet, and more importantly, sorta _right_, given the overall trajectory of the show, but inevitably a bit disappointing.


----------



## Plane Sailing (May 25, 2010)

The last episode I saw was the one with Hurley's numbers. Yeah, I know it was a long time ago 

Was anything ever explained about them?

Cheers


----------



## coyote6 (May 25, 2010)

They were kind of explained a couple of ways. I had to look it up to confirm the details (see here), but the short version:

First, a Dharma Initiative training video said the numbers were the "core environmental and human factors of the Valenzetti Equation"; said equation was one that supposedly predicted when humanity would die off.

Second, the numbers each corresponded to one of the candidates to replace Jacob -- one of the main cast members. The lighthouse had a mirror, that when turned to the appropriate number (not sure if the numbers corresponded to degrees -- I don't remember if the circle had 360 spaces on it or not), the mirror showed the home of that particular candidate.

The Lostpedia link lists which number corresponded to which Oceanic survivor/candidate.

Note that no explanation as to why the numbers were being transmitted, or showed up so much. Call it coincidence or fate or the power of the island.


----------



## Merkuri (May 26, 2010)

I watched all of LOST (yes, all six seasons) in about a month and a half since they made it all available on Hulu, and I've been avoiding this thread because I didn't want any spoilers.  Now I come back to it and see that it's 22 pages long and waaay to much for me to read it all.  

Did anyone else expect Jack to turn into a new smoke monster when he started to climb down into the cave with the light?  I thought it would be poetic if they kept the balance somehow, though I really could not see Jack ending up as a force of evil without some major badness happening to him.

I actually watched the last episode in two parts.  I missed the "live" showing on Sunday and Hulu didn't make it available until Monday night, but Monday night is my game night, and between the game, work, and other basic necessities I could only watch an hour of the last episode on Monday.  I watched the rest early this morning before work.

I think the fact that I watched it so early in the morning when my brain was still half asleep made me a bit more susceptible, but I cried during the second half.  Several times.  Just about every time a character in the pocket-afterlife had an epiphany of their life on the island I started choking up, especially the Kwons and Claire/Charlie.  I don't know why those scenes touched me so much.  I blame sleep deprivation.


----------



## RangerWickett (May 26, 2010)

Hehe. Well, there are still a _few_ loose ends: Unanswered Lost Questions - CollegeHumor video


----------



## Jack7 (May 26, 2010)

> but I cried during the second half. Several times. Just about every time a character in the pocket-afterlife had an epiphany of their life on the island I started choking up, especially the Kwons and Claire/Charlie. I don't know why those scenes touched me so much. I blame sleep deprivation.




I didn't cry, but at the end I had to really fight against it, and I did lose my voice. (Not that I was saying anything, but if I had to, I probably couldn't have.) And I'm not a guy who cries about much even in real life, though sometimes I feel like it, so it's very rare for me to cry about something fictional.

However _Lost_ was one of those very rare fictional efforts that seemed worth crying over. I see no shame in it.

I can honestly say say it's one of the few shows in my entire life that I feel came close to the wonderfulness and meaning of a real life experience, and I'm probably better off for having seen it.

I hope that this means that in the future television will only get better and better. Though now the bar is pretty darn high.


----------



## Banshee16 (May 26, 2010)

Diamond Cross said:


> It was the flash-sideways that was the alternate universe.
> 
> But as for myself I'm somewhat disappointed in the ending.
> 
> ...




I've been thinking, and am wondering...

We've assumed all season that the island on the bottom of the ocean showed in the Flash Sideways was a sign of the nuke or whatever......but maybe that's not what it is.

At one point this season, Jacob said that the light in the island had to be protected, and if it ever went out, everything would end.

If the Flash Sideways was actually the afterlife, or this purgatory or whatever, what if the island on the bottom was basically an indicator that sometime in the future the light *was* extinguished, and the world was destroyed.

At that point, the Losties were released from their "purgatory" or whatever, to be able to move on.....which is what the process of the Flash Sideways depicted, culminating in the finale.....with Christian Shepherd being analagous to a a supreme being leading them to the next phase of their existences.

Banshee


----------



## John Crichton (May 26, 2010)

Banshee16 said:


> I've been thinking, and am wondering...
> 
> We've assumed all season that the island on the bottom of the ocean showed in the Flash Sideways was a sign of the nuke or whatever......but maybe that's not what it is.
> 
> ...



While I don't really agree with you I love that the show sparks thoughts like your post. That really speaks to its greatness.


----------



## Merkuri (May 26, 2010)

Diamond Cross said:


> First of all, Jack shouldn't have died. He was given the power of immortality by Jacob through spring waters. Now, I can see how removing the cork can temporary disrupt that, but he was point blank when it reset. And unless you have to drink from the waters again to restart the immortality, being there point blank should have been enough.




He gave those powers to Hurley before he went into the well, though.  At least, that's how I interpreted it.  And I don't think they ever implied that Jacob was truly immortal.  He seemed like he would have lived forever if he wasn't killed, but he obliviously could be killed (since Linus killed him).



Diamond Cross said:


> So I guess the rules were just  things that Jacob made up. After all, when they were kids his brother said "when it's your game you can make up the rules". So I guess that's how Kate was able to kill smokey and smokey was able to kill Jack. Prior to this, smokey could not directly kill Jacob because that was the rule.




Some of the rules Jacob made up (like, perhaps, the difficulty of finding and leaving the island), but I think that particular one keeping Jacob and Smokey from killing each other was made up by their mother, who was the guardian before Jacob.



Diamond Cross said:


> The smoke monster will never be fully explained. I halfway expected Jack and anybody else down there to be transformed as well. Or to see more smoke monsters come out of the hole after the cork was removed. So I guess there was only the one. Maybe you have to be killed, like Jacob killed his brother, in order to transform?




You can't expect everything to be fully explained in a show like this, simply because if you explain magic it becomes less magical.  We never found out exactly what that light was in the middle of the island, other than something pretty that'll kill you (or worse).  

My guess is that the creation of the smoke monster had to do with the fact that Jacob was not allowed to kill his brother per his mother's rules.  Either that, or it was a personification of all the hate both brothers had when the nameless brother died in the light.



Diamond Cross said:


> If the springs give true immortality, Hugo and Jack shouldn't have been in the Church at all at the end. True immortality means you simply don't die and you'll even outlive the universe. So I guess longevity is the operating word. But this is also a matter of semantics.




Yeah, I never interpreted it as true immortality.  The wording was always "as long as you can," not, "forever."  I imagined that some time down the road, perhaps hundreds of years, Hurley got tired of protecting the island and found a replacement so that he could quietly live out the rest of his (already extended) life on the island and eventually die.



Diamond Cross said:


> The flash sideways was actually the afterlife. I tell ya, if my afterlife is no different than my life, then I will be really disappointed. I really wanted it to be a true sci-fi style alternate universe rather than an afterlife situation. But I guess technically the afterlife is some sort of alternate dimension. But that's a matter of semantics.




I think it was more interpreted to be a pre-afterlife.  I've seen a lot of movies and read a lot of books where they suggest that the very "early" afterlife is just like your real life to sort of ease you into being dead.  They obviously moved onto something different at the end.



Diamond Cross said:


> And of course, Kate's horse will never be explained.




Wasn't the horse one that had died?  If so, I think that horse was Smokey, trying to unsettle them.


----------



## Diamond Cross (May 26, 2010)

> You can't expect everything to be fully explained in a show like this, simply because if you explain magic it becomes less magical. We never found out exactly what that light was in the middle of the island, other than something pretty that'll kill you (or worse).




No, not everything, but definitely the major things.


> Wasn't the horse one that had died?  If so, I think that horse was Smokey, trying to unsettle them.




There's no on screen explanation of the horse. But why would smokey just visit Kate in this form to unsettle her? Why would he visit any of them at all? It seems to me that if he could visit any of them he would in order to make their lives even more miserable and maybe even get them to kill each other or get them killed long before they even got on the Oceanic Flight rather than wait for the island?


----------



## John Crichton (May 26, 2010)

Diamond Cross said:


> There's no on screen explanation of the horse. But why would smokey just visit Kate in this form to unsettle her? Why would he visit any of them at all? It seems to me that if he could visit any of them he would in order to make their lives even more miserable and maybe even get them to kill each other or get them killed long before they even got on the Oceanic Flight rather than wait for the island?



Seriously?  People still care about the frickin' horse thing?

Really?


----------



## Diamond Cross (May 26, 2010)

It's called paying attention to detail.

And people will be discussing these things for years to come.

Much like fans of Star Trek do.


----------



## coyote6 (May 26, 2010)

I think the horse she met while running away from the law was just a horse. 

The horse she saw on the island was either just an escapee from the Russian guy's station that coincidentally looked like the earlier horse (and was thus the show's creators messing with fans), or it was Smokey trying to get into her head somehow. I don't believe the horse ever did anything significant on the island, so I kind of lean towards the first interpretation.

I don't think the horse needs a canonical explanation; I don't know how you would fit it in the show without it being hamhanded.


----------



## dravot (May 26, 2010)

This guy does a pretty good job of answering the remaining questions.

Attempt to answer all of the remaining questions

It's based on the remaining questions video put out by College Humor.


----------



## stonegod (May 26, 2010)

Two random sillinesses regarding the final. For the animal lovers.

First, all of LOST in 1 minute as told by cats.[sblock=Spoiler? Not Really][ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-DShnvNNv0]YouTube - LOST re-enacted by Cats in 1 minute.[/ame][/sblock]Second, another ending, this one involving dogs.[sblock=Spoiler if you haven't seen it. Sorta]
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





[/sblock]


----------



## Felon (May 26, 2010)

John Crichton said:


> Seriously?  People still care about the frickin' horse thing?
> 
> Really?



I don't recal off the top of my head what the "horse thing" being referred to is, but even so I don't understand your incredulity. Abrahms asserted often that this show wasn't like the X-Files, that they weren't just scrambling to make things up as they went along, and that the island wasn't merely some magical fantasy island. In other words, you can't just say "a wizard did it". 

So yeah, people want to know what all the random out-of-place stuff appearing was about. It's not totally unsreasonable.


----------



## Fast Learner (May 26, 2010)

I remember Abrams saying that they weren't just making it up as they went along, but I don't remember him saying anything along the lines of "the island wasn't merely some magical fantasy island." Any idea where I might find something like it?


----------



## Felon (May 27, 2010)

The Wikipedia references are what I used to use when I was initially considering watching the show. I wanted to make sure I wasn't about to start watching some lazy, stream-of-consciousness fantasy island that's all meaningless imagery with no substance or direction. They may have changed over time (or even recently, now that conjecture about forthcoming answers is sort of moot).


----------



## Janx (May 27, 2010)

Sir Brennen said:


> Nope. The island was real, those that left on the plane left very much alive, Hugo and Ben live out the rest of their days on the Island. Things really happened. They really mattered.
> 
> The Sideways world was the self-created Purgatory of the Losties, where they were able to re-connect by recalling their *real* experiences on the Island.
> 
> The conversation between Jack and Des before Des went down into the light brought up the question very clearly as to whether their actions mattered. Jack insisted they did. His father's explanation in Sideways world confirmed this (along with the long sought "Attaboy" Jack was seeking from Dad.)




by what proof from the contents of the show do you have that the plane crashed and there were survivors and stuff happened?

Did it matter, sure.  Just as if you have a dream epiphany that changes your life, the events of the dream matter.

Given that neither you nor I are idiots, I either missed a detail, or the writers were unclear, given that I have a different interpretation of what I saw.

in my interpretation, it was implied that Hurley's new way was to discover how to end the purgatory cycle and move everybody out of purgatory.

The ending scene with the plane quietly sitting on the beach enforced that view.

So, by what do you discern that they were not all dead?  Bearing in mind that I don't dispute that the events mattered.  They were a journey for the characters, regardless of their reality.


----------



## fba827 (May 27, 2010)

i'm a firm believer in "the ending is how you interpret it yourself, so the ending may be different for different people..."  Having said that ...



Janx said:


> The ending scene with the plane quietly sitting on the beach enforced that view.




Not that you would have any way of knowing it from the context of the episode, ABC released a statement that the end scene of the plane sitting there was not part of the episode narrative, but rather something ABC/network had put in order to allow viewers to 'decompress' from the events that just unfolded before jumping to the next show/news/late show/etc.

Link to story here:
ABC clarifies that everyone on LOST was NOT dead the whole show | SCI FI Wire


----------



## Fast Learner (May 27, 2010)

Christian tells Jack, "The most important part of your life was the time you spent with these people." Pretty sure he didn't mean a few hours sitting on an airplane.


----------



## Janx (May 27, 2010)

fba827 said:


> i'm a firm believer in "the ending is how you interpret it yourself, so the ending may be different for different people..."  Having said that ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...





That helps.  Given how many people came to similar conclusions,  the episode could have been more clear on that.

This summary from the replies on the article was pretty succinct:

"Jack's conversation with his dad at the end pretty much explained the whole "dead" thing. Everyone dies. They just don't die at the same time. Hurley and Ben may have been guardians of the island for a 1,000 years. Kate, Sawyer, Richard, Claire, etc. may have led full, rich lives after escaping the island. The church was just the focal point for drawing all of their spirits back to the same place and time so they could move on together."


Since there was a lot of wierd stuff happening, Christian's quote didn't have to mean that he was referring to actual life, so much as "existing in any plane".

The real problem was that unlike the first escape from the island, the show ended before it locked in the reality.  Seeing the plane land with Richard on it, or similar Oceanic 6 reaction would have helped lock that in that it really happened.


----------



## jaerdaph (May 27, 2010)

fba827 said:


> Link to story here:
> ABC clarifies that everyone on LOST was NOT dead the whole show | SCI FI Wire




Oh for Pete's sake, ABC. 

Why in the world would they choose to show plane wreckage washed up on the shore and no survivors as transition to evening news, when they could have just FADED TO BLACK like television over the years has always done? I'm not even convinced that's what it really was either. 

I love when network executives think they're writers....

So Lost ends with the equivalent of a "wardrobe malfunction". Great.


----------



## stonegod (May 27, 2010)

Janx said:
			
		

> The real problem was that unlike the first escape from the island, the show ended before it locked in the reality.  Seeing the plane land with Richard on it, or similar Oceanic 6 reaction would have helped lock that in that it really happened.



True, but the last bit was Jack's story and showing that at the time would have broken up that dramatic moment. Maybe a mention in the sideways (like they did with Hurley/Ben's afterstory) would have worked.


----------



## John Crichton (May 27, 2010)

Diamond Cross said:


> It's called paying attention to detail.
> 
> And people will be discussing these things for years to come.
> 
> Much like fans of Star Trek do.



Doesn't make it any less nit picky.  And I'd say the same thing about folks who bring up ultra minor stuff from any medium.  



Felon said:


> I don't recal off the top of my head what the "horse thing" being referred to is, but even so I don't understand your incredulity. Abrahms asserted often that this show wasn't like the X-Files, that they weren't just scrambling to make things up as they went along, and that the island wasn't merely some magical fantasy island. In other words, you can't just say "a wizard did it".
> 
> So yeah, people want to know what all the random out-of-place stuff appearing was about. It's not totally unsreasonable.



Not saying it's unreasonable.  I'm surprised that will all the things that were actually addressed or even partially addressed and given real screen time that anyone would care about the horse thing.


----------



## John Crichton (May 27, 2010)

jaerdaph said:


> Oh for Pete's sake, ABC.
> 
> Why in the world would they choose to show plane wreckage washed up on the shore and no survivors as transition to evening news, when they could have just FADED TO BLACK like television over the years has always done? I'm not even convinced that's what it really was either.
> 
> ...



I just thought the crash scenes were shots of set pieces to wrap things up over the credits.  I could see how it could have been confusing to some folks.


----------



## Janx (May 27, 2010)

John Crichton said:


> I just thought the crash scenes were shots of set pieces to wrap things up over the credits.  I could see how it could have been confusing to some folks.




I think a better term is misleading.  I wasn't confused, I was mislead into thinking they all died on impact.

confusion is a state where the confused doesn't understand and knows it.

thats a whole different animal than presenting something in such a way that I come away with a different interpretation than intended.


----------



## John Crichton (May 27, 2010)

Janx said:


> I think a better term is misleading.  I wasn't confused, I was mislead into thinking they all died on impact.
> 
> confusion is a state where the confused doesn't understand and knows it.
> 
> thats a whole different animal than presenting something in such a way that I come away with a different interpretation than intended.



I'm gonna stick with what I said.


----------



## jaerdaph (May 27, 2010)

John Crichton said:


> I just thought the crash scenes were shots of set pieces to wrap things up over the credits.  I could see how it could have been confusing to some folks.




Definitely - considering the sheer chaos on the beach in the first episode after Flight 815 crashed. Showing a wrecked plane and luggage washing up on shore but no survivors is a powerful contrasting image. 

Maybe somebody did screw up with that choice of final imagery, maybe they're backpedaling. Who knows.


----------



## coyote6 (May 27, 2010)

John Crichton said:


> I just thought the crash scenes were shots of set pieces to wrap things up over the credits.  I could see how it could have been confusing to some folks.




See, I thought the shots were just showing all the wreckage slowly washing away, now that all the plane's survivors (that wanted to leave) are gone or not-so-surviving. 

People come, people die, people live, people go; the island and the sea go on regardless. Footprints in the sand, and all that.

That, or it was showing the actual beach after they wrapped production, and the props were getting washed away. Litterbugs, the lot of 'em -- Bad Robot!


----------



## Starman (May 27, 2010)

Interesting. Supposedly a Bad Robot employee has come out with some answers/explanations.



> Good stuff on here! I can finally throw in my two cents! I've had to bite my tongue for far too long. Also, hopefully I can answer some of John's questions about Dharma and the "pointless breadcrumbs" that really, weren't so pointless ...
> 
> First ...
> The Island:
> ...


----------



## Diamond Cross (May 27, 2010)

If Hurley won't be the last protector, then what the heck is the point of the island being sunken on the ocean floor?

That line about Hurley not being the last protector seems to insinuate that the island will go on forever. So there was no real point to showing the sunken island.

I think I'm liking the final episode less and less now.


----------



## John Crichton (May 27, 2010)

Diamond Cross said:


> If Hurley won't be the last protector, then what the heck is the point of the island being sunken on the ocean floor?
> 
> That line about Hurley not being the last protector seems to insinuate that the island will go on forever. So there was no real point to showing the sunken island.
> 
> I think I'm liking the final episode less and less now.



The sunken island was from the sideways flash.

Or at least that's what I always thought it was.


----------



## coyote6 (May 27, 2010)

The island being sunk was part of the sideways world. In the real world, the island apparently has important reasons for being (the quoted text said it keeps the balance between good and evil [not sure that makes sense, if there's usually no MiB on it; where's the balance? but I digress]; whether it's the light or the EM force or whatever, the island is Important To The World). 

However, in the afterlife, no island was needed; whatever it's purpose was, it didn't exist in that quasi-afterlife. Thus, the island doesn't exist. Why did they show it at the bottom of the ocean? To mess with heads, mainly; but you can rationalize it as the island no longer being important to them, as they'd moved beyond its concerns. Thus, they show it as sunken, so we know it's not a factor here.


----------



## stonegod (May 27, 2010)

Interesting post. Sounds of Babylon5 where the finale was planned for some time (with little adjustments due to casting changes). Of course, if the church scene is only S1, then (1) Desmond was planned ahead of time or (2) they fibbed a bit.


----------



## John Crichton (May 27, 2010)

stonegod said:


> Interesting post. Sounds of Babylon5 where the finale was planned for some time (with little adjustments due to casting changes). Of course, if the church scene is only S1, then (1) Desmond was planned ahead of time or (2) they fibbed a bit.



Hmm.

Lost never felt at all like B5.  B5 always had my trust that just about every little thing would have consequence and would be resolved later.  Lost wasn't that kinda show as I watched week to week for the characters and their plights.


----------



## stonegod (May 27, 2010)

John Crichton said:


> Hmm.
> 
> Lost never felt at all like B5.  B5 always had my trust that just about every little thing would have consequence and would be resolved later.  Lost wasn't that kinda show as I watched week to week for the characters and their plights.



True, though the characters in B5 played an important role. I was mostly commenting on the fact that both had their last scene established at the beginning (and both had the arc plotted, though LOST's wasn't until midway through S3).


----------



## John Crichton (May 27, 2010)

stonegod said:


> True, though the characters in B5 played an important role. I was mostly commenting on the fact that both had their last scene established at the beginning (and both had the arc plotted, though LOST's wasn't until midway through S3).



I didn't mean the downplay the characters in B5.  They were just different stories.  Lost was very personal and more of a character piece and B5 was a saga beyond the characters.

Anywho, to your point ... I get it now.


----------



## Diamond Cross (May 28, 2010)

No, in Babylon 5 there were no real ambiguous or unexplained things happeneing. One reason is because JMS planned and wrote it all before filming began.


----------



## John Crichton (May 28, 2010)

Diamond Cross said:


> No, in Babylon 5 there were no real ambiguous or unexplained things happeneing. One reason is because JMS planned and wrote it all before filming began.



No one said that B5 had any of the things you mentioned.


----------



## dravot (May 28, 2010)

For all of the promises, the final episode of B5 was lame.  It was 20 years later and the main characters got together for dinner.

On that basis, I could write the final episode of any series.


----------



## Starman (May 28, 2010)

I find myself agreeing with much of what James Poniewozik had to say here on his blog at Time.


> What I do want to look at is: does the finale, especially the Flash Sideways resolution, change my view of season 6 as a season? Short answer: Somewhat. Not for the better.
> 
> As I've written often, I began the season believing it was, in one sense, one big episode that we couldn't wholly evaluate until it was done. It was structured around an unknown: the Flash Sideways universe, what it was, how "real" it was, and how it related to the larger narrative.
> 
> ...


----------



## Fast Learner (May 28, 2010)

The sunken island was indeed intended to be a sideways flash, in the afterworld where the island itself is no longer important, just the people you shared time on the island with.


----------



## John Crichton (May 28, 2010)

dravot said:


> For all of the promises, the final episode of B5 was lame.  It was 20 years later and the main characters got together for dinner.



I had no problem with the final ep of B5.  

The real reason the whole of S5 was kinda funky was due to JMS thinking the show was being cancelled in S4.  The real payoff finale was the end of S4.  Considering the story was essentially done he did a good job expanding the rest of the universe and giving us more character stuffs.


----------



## dravot (May 28, 2010)

John Crichton said:


> I had no problem with the final ep of B5.
> 
> The real reason the whole of S5 was kinda funky was due to JMS thinking the show was being cancelled in S4.  The real payoff finale was the end of S4.  Considering the story was essentially done he did a good job expanding the rest of the universe and giving us more character stuffs.




The episode in itself was ok, but it was portrayed as something special because he had it written before he started writing the series.


----------



## Diamond Cross (May 28, 2010)

Except for one thing. 

It was Sheridan's final dinner with his friends. He was saying goodbye to them because his twenty year run was up. It wasn't about having dinner. It was about Sheridan's death and trying to have that perfect image you want to take with you when you die.

There's nothing lame about that.


----------



## stonegod (May 29, 2010)

dravot said:


> The episode in itself was ok, but it was portrayed as something special because he had it written before he started writing the series.



The major scene he knew (the shutting down of B5) was made such a big deal of mainly because such scripting of a series had not really been done in US TV before. That was why it was a big deal at the time.

The episode itself did its job and was touching in parts.


----------



## John Crichton (Jun 1, 2010)

dravot said:


> The episode in itself was ok, but it was portrayed as something special because he had it written before he started writing the series.



At the time I had no idea it was supposed to be a big deal.  Could be another case of knowing too much and changing expectations.  I hate it when that happens to me!


----------



## dravot (Jun 1, 2010)

John Crichton said:


> At the time I had no idea it was supposed to be a big deal.  Could be another case of knowing too much and changing expectations.  I hate it when that happens to me!




That would have been much better for me too.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Jun 11, 2010)

jaerdaph said:


> I really liked the ending and thought it was fitting for such an epic show. I was a little sad to learn that "flash sideways" time was what it was and Flight 815 from Sydney never did land at LAX and that all those who were killed over the years up to the end were truly dead, but enjoyed it nevertheless.
> 
> It was a great, epic and groundbreaking show, and I will miss it.




What you said made me thing about what Boone said to Hurley as they watched Sayid and Shannon reunite. It was something to the effect of took you long enough to get here. It was definitely referencing the fight, but also could imply that since he dies early on he has waited a while for Hurley.


----------

