# Dragonborn: Boobs or No Boobs?



## RPG_Tweaker

Because it had to be done...


I personally prefer no boobs. I think Dragonborn should be unique from the traditional male-female cliché.


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## KingCrab

Definitely no boobs.  It makes the race more distinct.


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## I'm A Banana

Why would reptiles need them?

Dragons don't have boobs, do they?

No, no, no....though I think the males and the females should be distinct, it should be either through more subtle distinctions than us humans (for instance, females slightly stockier and built with broader hips) or more obvious than us humans (males have horns, crests, something flashy).

Leave the mammaries to the mammalia.


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## Voss

Reptiles aren't mammals.
This isn't star trek.  The races don't need to be human with a prosthesis stuck on their heads.


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## Frostmarrow

I say yes to boobs and no to eggs. Dragonborn should give birth and not lay eggs.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey

I don't know something about Dragons as milk-producing really appeals* to me.  I think it makes the species more intriguing and unique.

Sort of like the nega-verse version of a platypus, a milk-producing lizard rather than an egg laying mammal.








* - and not in that way


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## Voss

Well, most Nega-verse creatures are disturbingly mammalian. Except the generals, of course, but even they tend to go bishonen after awhile.  Only Queen Beryl knows why.


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## Dausuul

Dragonborn went on my "house-rule this the hell out of my game" list the moment I saw them, so my opinion is perhaps not that relevant, but...

For dragonborn as they are, if I were in a game which had them, I'd say females should not have breasts.  Give them lighter, more graceful frames perhaps, but breasts are a mammalian thing and dragonborn are clearly not mammals.  They lay eggs, for God's sake.

In my first 4E game, since I'd like everyone to be able to try out all the new races stat-wise if not fluff-wise, I plan to lift the dragonborn stats, scrape off the fluff, and re-flavor them as demonspawn.  Since demonspawn will be mostly humanoid with a few demonic traits, the females will have breasts.  But I don't think that's quite what you're asking for.


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## kunadam

They can still technically give birth. There are a number of lizards (also fish) that "give birth" see the wikipedia entry on vivipary. So that would no be a problem.

Sexual dimorphism is rather subtle in humans, the only outside distinction is the boobs (generalisation, but try to imagine how an alien would see us). This is - among others    - that we are obsesses with boobs in every monster we create...
On the other hand just flip through some animal picture book and realize that there are numerous ways of expressing the difference between the sexes.

There is no need for boobs, to make them distinct. Actually female dragonborns can even be bigger! Now there is a race where it is biologically reasonable, and WotC did not ventured there.


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## Li Shenron

No.


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## Kobu

Voss said:
			
		

> Reptiles aren't mammals.




Dragons aren't reptiles.


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## Baumi

Where is the option for MORE boobs? Everything is better with more boobs...


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## Voss

Big giant lizards with wings on, that lay eggs.  
Not reptiles. Ok...

Are they birds?  Birds don't have mammaries either


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## Alikar

Baumi said:
			
		

> Where is the option for MORE boobs? Everything is better with more boobs...




Maybe we should give you some


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## Scholar & Brutalman

Voss said:
			
		

> Big giant lizards with wings on, that lay eggs.
> Not reptiles. Ok...
> 
> Are they birds?  Birds still don't have mammaries




Reptiles, birds and mammals are all tetrapods. Dragons aren't. They're a fantasy creature that have some reptilian features.


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## Voss

Ah.  I knew someone would pull the hexapod thing out.  How predictable.

But still, if they aren't tetrapods they *really* can't be mammals.  So still no mammaries.


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## UndeadScottsman

The never evolved; they were made by a god or gods.  Therefore it really doesn't matter if reptiles that evolved on earth don't have breasts IMO.

Give 'em breasts since they're a core-race and breasts are among the easiest identifiers of gender; especially on something so alien as they are.  Most people aren't herpetologists.


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## Angel Tarragon

How about a trio? Like that girl from Total Recall.


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## Scholar & Brutalman

Voss said:
			
		

> Ah.  I knew someone would pull the hexapod thing out.  How predictable.




If you were able to predict it, perhaps you should have addressed the argument.



> But still, if they aren't tetrapods they *really* can't be mammals.  So still no mammaries.




They aren't any sort of reality based creature at all. WotC can do whatever they like with them.


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## James Heard

Boobs are easier to read visually as female than having to turn to other visual cues like putting lipstick on the figure or making them adventure in dresses for the artwork. I don't care what's reasonable, but if it keeps a single cloaca visual off a page then I think the boobs are worth it. I mean it's not like Mialee looks like she belongs on a beer commercial most of the time, I think you can do "enough boobs to differentiate between male and female" without making a big deal about them.


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## Voss

But they are based very heavily and myth and legend.  There are limits to what is acceptable as a dragon.

And the hexapod thing didn't need addressing, as you'll note from the next line.  Taking them out of the Superclass takes them even further away from mammals.


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## xechnao

If they are mamals and milk then boobs. If not, then no boobs. The real question is about eggs or babies. I think I go with eggs because it's a bit strange to imagine and accept lizardmen as mamals.
Oh, and about dragons people keep mentioning about not being reptiles: yes, maybe so, but for the purpose of this forum I have to say that I have never seen a dragon depicted with boobs.


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## Scholar & Brutalman

Voss said:
			
		

> But they are based very heavily and myth and legend.  There are limits to what is acceptable as a dragon.




Even if I accepted that, dragonborn aren't dragons.



> And the hexapod thing didn't need addressing, as you'll note from the next line.  Taking them out of the Superclass takes them even further away from mammals.




And even further away from anything to do with reality. This is the hexapod argument: dragons have *nothing* to do with reality. Your argument is based on real world animals to which they bear a resemblance.


I actually voted "No boobs" in the poll - I think they look silly. I prefer a more reptilian look myself. But it's just aesthetic.


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## Dannyalcatraz

Dragonborn sound like they should be boobless...

But I'm otherwise pro-boob.


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## Lord Xtheth

Baumi said:
			
		

> Where is the option for MORE boobs? Everything is better with more boobs...



I'm going Pro-boobs 
I support breasts in any way I can!

Even with my hands, if the need arises

As far as more boobs go, 5 boobs should be good. See, its an odd number, so people who want them to be distinct can be happy, and we can have boobs.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey

Just to note:

There are mammals that lay eggs.  So that shouldn't disqualify a species from nursing outright.

Species don't nurse because they don't nurse, not because they lay eggs.


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## Voss

Scholar & Brutalman said:
			
		

> Even if I accepted that, dragonborn aren't dragons.




And not hexapods and we're back to reptiles.  Your side trip to dragonland was pretty meaningless, wasn't it?



> I actually voted "No boobs" in the poll - I think they look silly. I prefer a more reptilian look myself. But it's just aesthetic.




Ah.  I didn't realize you were arguing for the sake of being argumentative.  'WotC can do whatever they want because it isn't real' is a circular argument that doesn't lead anywhere. 
They could make all the monsters Neo-pets or Pokemon if they really wanted to.


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## bgaesop

Having male and female Dragonborn visually identical would make them too alien a race for me to consider including in my games. There's just no way you could work them into a shared society with the other races without distinct genders, and so until I see artwork that convinces me it can be done without boobs I'll have to vote boobs.


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## mhacdebhandia

bgaesop said:
			
		

> Having male and female Dragonborn visually identical would make them too alien a race for me to consider including in my games. There's just no way you could work them into a shared society with the other races without distinct genders, and so until I see artwork that convinces me it can be done without boobs I'll have to vote boobs.



Do you, like, have *no* imagination?

China Mieville has a fantasy species where the females look like human women from the neck down, but have large, red, scarab-like insect-heads. The males are head-sized scarab-like beetles and non-sentient . . . they run around communities built by the females as if they were dogs or other pets.

And you think dragonborn gender being visually unidentifiable is too much to take? Jeez, how did you ever handle the notion that dwarven women might have beards and deep voices . . . Discworld novels featuring dwarves must confuse the hell out of you.


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## mhacdebhandia

Whoa, hey, deja vu.


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## Scholar & Brutalman

Voss said:
			
		

> Ah.  I didn't realize you were arguing for the sake of being argumentative.  'WotC can do whatever they want because it isn't real' is a circular argument that doesn't lead anywhere.




No. What I am pointing out is that you do not have an argument here. Your opinion is that you don't like things that bear some resemblance to reptiles to have boobs. This is fine - I even agree with it. You can say that because they don't in myth and legend, they shouldn't have them. I don't agree, but that's fine too.

However, you keep pointing at reptiles and saying "No boobs". This is not an argument that proves that dragons shouldn't have them either.  Dragons aren't reptiles. No matter how many how many times you compare them, they aren't. They aren't mammals, they aren't birds, they aren't any kind of real animal. They are fictional. WotC can indeed describe dragons in their game however they like - because they aren't real, and because it's their game. 



> They could make all the monsters Neo-pets or Pokemon if they really wanted to




Absolutely correct. Since dragons are exactly as real as pokemon. D&D is not a zoological project.


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## Chris_Nightwing

Let's keep this up guys, with some more firepower we can get this debate to be the new Dwarven Women vs. Beards!

I'd go for no boobs, but I do want differentiation between the sexes. Making the males spikier or obviously bulkier might do, giving them crests, colourful patterns or such would be cooler.


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## Scholar & Brutalman

Chris_Nightwing said:
			
		

> Let's keep this up guys, with some more firepower we can get this debate to be the new Dwarven Women vs. Beards!




Good point, I'll shut up about this now.



> I'd go for no boobs, but I do want differentiation between the sexes. Making the males spikier or obviously bulkier might do, giving them crests, colourful patterns or such would be cooler.




That's a nice idea - very colourful males and drab females perhaps.


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## mhacdebhandia

There's no real reason why male dragonborn would be larger and bulkier than female dragonborn. I'd like to see a fantasy race where the reverse was true, as it is for many insects and arthropods.


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## Nifft

*Hexapodia as the Key Insight*



			
				Voss said:
			
		

> Ah.  I knew someone would pull the hexapod thing out.  How predictable.



I haven't had a chance to see the famous video from
Straumli Realm, except as an evocation. (My only
gateway onto the Net is very expensive.) Is it true
that humans have six legs? I wasn't sure from the
evocation. If these humans have three pairs of legs,
then I think there is an easy explanation for
-- END TRANSMISSION --


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## Wormwood

Yes to boobs.

Regardless of the question, actually.


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## Plane Sailing

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
			
		

> Just to note:
> 
> There are mammals that lay eggs.  So that shouldn't disqualify a species from nursing outright.
> 
> Species don't nurse because they don't nurse, not because they lay eggs.





the "egg-laying mammals" are properly called monotremes (platypus and echidna). Significantly they don't have boobs - milk leaks out onto their abdomen which the babies lap up.


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## Plane Sailing

I voted no boobs for the dragonborn. I've never seen boobs on a dragon (which they are evidently closely tied to) or any other reptilian D&D creature.

It just doesn't make sense.

What would make sense IMO might be to make

a) dragonborn females larger
b) dragonborn males more colourful.

Cheers


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## Zweischneid

Wormwood said:
			
		

> Yes to boobs.
> 
> Regardless of the question, actually.





QFT, also hot, sweaty sex between party members are a definite must have.. so reptilian, egg-laying player races are certainly non-functional for my D&D Game.


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## Li Shenron

James Heard said:
			
		

> Boobs are easier to read visually as female than having to turn to other visual cues like putting lipstick on the figure or making them adventure in dresses for the artwork. I don't care what's reasonable, but if it keeps a single cloaca visual off a page then I think the boobs are worth it. I mean it's not like Mialee looks like she belongs on a beer commercial most of the time, I think you can do "enough boobs to differentiate between male and female" without making a big deal about them.




What is the purpose of reading visually a monster's gender?


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## ThirdWizard

I vote no boobs. I think it would be interesting if other races couldn't tell what sex a dragonborn is. And, those dragon-ey names are all so crazy, you can't tell from that either. 



			
				Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> I've never seen boobs on a dragon




You're going to the wrong parts of the internet then.

</rimshot>


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## Firevalkyrie

Li Shenron said:
			
		

> What is the purpose of reading visually a monster's gender?




None, but there's a point in visually being able to read a _player character's_ gender...


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## Nifft

Li Shenron said:
			
		

> What is the purpose of reading visually a monster's gender?



 You know immediately if you should bribe it with tickets to the opera or the coliseum.

Also: helps when the DM starts using pronouns to describe NPC actions in a fight. Saves one of these 50% of the time: "She breathes fire at you!" -- "Who?" -- "The dragon." -- "It's a girl?!"

Cheers, -- N


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## Lurks-no-More

mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> There's no real reason why male dragonborn would be larger and bulkier than female dragonborn. I'd like to see a fantasy race where the reverse was true, as it is for many insects and arthropods.



Gnolls, in every campaign I've ever played in. Also, weren't drow women generally bigger than men?

Anyway, as a mammalian, I'll go with boobs for dragonborn. Let them lay eggs and nurse their young.


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## Vayden

Dausuul said:
			
		

> Dragonborn went on my "house-rule this the hell out of my game" list the moment I saw them, so my opinion is perhaps not that relevant, but...
> 
> For dragonborn as they are, if I were in a game which had them, I'd say females should not have breasts.  Give them lighter, more graceful frames perhaps, but breasts are a mammalian thing and dragonborn are clearly not mammals.  They lay eggs, for God's sake.
> 
> In my first 4E game, since I'd like everyone to be able to try out all the new races stat-wise if not fluff-wise, I plan to lift the dragonborn stats, scrape off the fluff, and re-flavor them as demonspawn.  Since demonspawn will be mostly humanoid with a few demonic traits, the females will have breasts.  But I don't think that's quite what you're asking for.




Hey Dausuul, say it ain't so - as one of your long-time players, the one thing I want to play in 4E is a Dragonborn Paladin (or Warlord, depending on the crunch), with that whole "honor-bound race of wandering mercenaries" flavor. Specifically, I want to look like that one Dragonborn in red full plate on the page where Rich Baker is talking about Race selection. Pleeease?


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## Plane Sailing

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> You're going to the wrong parts of the internet then.




If that is true, I rather think I'm going to the RIGHT parts of the internet!


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## Dr. Strangemonkey

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> the "egg-laying mammals" are properly called monotremes (platypus and echidna). Significantly they don't have boobs - milk leaks out onto their abdomen which the babies lap up.




I am aware, but thought I was being pedantic enough.

But to be fair to your second point:

Not much has boobs.  Nipples, mammary glands, and teats or udders sure, but not 'boobs' proper.  They're mostly a very weird human trait.

And Dwarf, Elf, Halfling, Tiefling, and, apparently, Dragonborn trait.


But we should know more about Dragon and Dragonborn family life pretty soon.  I believe that's the topic of an upcoming D&D insider article.


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## Wulf Ratbane

All I know is, if my dragonborn chick doesn't have boobs, she's saving her first adventure payday for big honkin' double-D implants.

The mithril chain shirt can wait.


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## Doug McCrae

Baumi said:
			
		

> Where is the option for MORE boobs? Everything is better with more boobs...



Thread winner.


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## heirodule

You could give the males um, large, packages.


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## Doug McCrae

Thank you for giving me this rare opportunity to vote yes to boobs.


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## Cadfan

I voted yes.

I'm usually very anti fan service, so voting "yes" to boobs makes me cringe a bit.

But my personal taste is to have them look more at least somewhat human, rather than like small bipedal dragons.  And I think that gender dimorphism that at least roughly maps onto human gender dimorphism helps make them feel more accessible.

Technically, there's nothing that says that they can't lay eggs AND nurse young.  Maybe they're monotremes.


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## Brown Jenkin

It has to be yes. Just as  WotC found that things with drow or dragons on the cover sell better, there is plenty of research showing that boobs also sell things better.


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## HeinorNY

I always vote Yes for boobs, always.

Now for an adult discussion. Dragons are not reptile, they are dragons, but that takes us nowhere, because we all know, that being hexapods or not, reptiles or not, female dragons have no boobs.
What are dragonborn? Where they come from? (races and classes anyone?)

If they are a mix of humans with dragonkin, they could have boobs. 
If they are "cousins" of dragons, thus being pure dragon that had a different natural evolution, they should not have boobs.
If they are pure dragonkin that artifically/magically evolved to become humanoids, they could have boobs.


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## Bluenose

I want something that distinguishes the genders. It doesn't have to be boobs, and in fact I'd prefer it if it wasn't, but some visual clue would be desirable even if it's something as simple as differently coloured crests.

Though now that I'm thinking about it, I could imagine a scene where the adventuring party is making a deal with a dragonborn leader, and makes an unfortunate error with identifying the gender because "they all look alike to you mammals".


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## Ahrimon

It's funny, I don't recall this coming up when Eberron came out.  Warforged have no visible cue as to thier gender, but I've never seen it be a problem.  And yes, I know warforged technically have no physical gender.  But they do have either a male or female personality.

I wonder if the dragonborn will face the same problems good ol' V does.


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## Fifth Element

In general, I am very pro-boob.

For dragonborn, not so much. Though I agree that it is simply an aesthetic choice.


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## Umbran

Firevalkyrie said:
			
		

> None, but there's a point in visually being able to read a _player character's_ gender...




There is?  In a tabletop game the words "my character is a female" are not enough?

I don't think there's much point to putting breasts on dragonborn unless you are trying to sexualize them for human viewing - making it basically a question of marketing, and the artwork you'll be using to help sell the game to real-world humans, rather than one of fantasy biology.

For me, putting breasts on something that is more reptilian than mammalian is likely to come across as jarring, and a deliberate attempt to use sex to sell me the book.  Vaguely insulting, even.


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## Jraynack

MMMMM.......Boobs   



			
				Frukathka said:
			
		

> How about a trio? Like that girl from Total Recall.




How 'bout dragonborn having six boobs, each a different color, and spouting a variety of dangerous "breath" weapons - now, that is something to take a character by surprise.

Of course, I am only kidding - I think my players would leave the table if they saw a dragonborn wench serving drinks.  In my book, they will have a place in my world and the Feudal Lords Campaign setting, but some GM, somewhere, will have a dragonborn wench serving drinks to players.  That just makes me shudder.

But then again, I don't understand why a non-heroic tier farmer will not run at the site of a dragonborn entering a village or gather together to try to slay it - now that's adventure!.

As for the reptile/boob thing is concerned - Synapsids (a class of mammals and reptile-mammals) did exist before dinosaurs.  Instead of being wiped out during the Great Dying (or Permian–Triassic extinction event), a few hardy synapsids survived to become the boobed dragonborn we see in 4th Edition.

To further this realistic twist of events - they are not really from dragons at all, but are simply called that way because their appearance are similar.

Now, with that said, I hate to see when a Draconian starts to mate with a Dragonborn and finds she is a small-breasted mammal.  That is a Jerry Springer episode I'd like to see:

Jerry - How do you feel?
Draconian - Betrayed, Jerry.  I thought she was a reptile.
Jerry - But surely, you noticed her boobs?
Draconian - I guess she taped them up and when we got intimate, she'd never let me kiss below her neck.
Jerry - Now, why did you lie to him if you loved him.
Dragonborn - I was afraid, Jerry.  I thought he would leave if I told him the truth.
[Fighting ensues, etc., etc.,]

Anyway, there is my 2 cents + a few extra dollars stuffed into the fantasy g-string of a dragonborn stripper.


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## Jraynack

Li Shenron said:
			
		

> What is the purpose of reading visually a monster's gender?




Evidently, you were never a very, very desperate 12 year old boy.


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## GameOgre

Boobs are never a bad thing and in D&D due to the youngish nature of many players boobs are already ignored as a valuable resource.

 Im all for Boobs on everything. The Boobdragon Attack on Waterdeep in 846 was one of the few exceptions.

 Im thinking even a monster or two. Something like a Boobholder"beholder".

 " My God man! Look at the size of that BOOB! I cant attack it! It's perfect!! NOOooooo!!"

 Also a few Feats wouldnt be too off the mark.

 Come on like there isnt a distraction feat calling out for boob inclusion?


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## Kahuna Burger

No boobs. It's just silly looking. 

This is an amusing thread. I had no idea that gender dimorphism was so important to some folks.

Dragonborn do present an oppertunity for a different family model than the mammalian standard. Do Dragonborn even raise their young, or do they lay a clutch in the hot sands and leave? Maybe the clutch hatches all together and survives (or not) together until they are  year old, at which point an existing warband will allow them to join. They reach full physical size by 5 years old but sexual maturity at 50, when they largely retire from adventuring and join hidden desert cities.


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## FreeXenon

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> a) dragonborn females larger
> b) dragonborn males more colourful.



There is something about this I really like. I have been doing some reading reading on mating and this makes some sense. Isn't his found amongst some species of birds? I might be way off with this...


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## Vael

No boobs. I like the idea that the females are bigger than the more colourful males.


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## Doug McCrae

The Monster Manual medusa has boobs despite being reptilian. Of course she needs em to make with the sexy and lure men to their doom.

But if you're looking at the issue from a real world biology perspective doesn't the same problem arise?

The mistake here is trying to apply realism to D&D. D&D's not realistic. At all. It's a big old mess of four-armed apes, exploding ice monsters, things that shouldn't be able to fly but can and plants that walk around.


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## HeavenShallBurn

I always vote yes to boobs but *Where is the option for More and Larger?*

1.)  Plane Sailing there are entire _regions_ of the net devoted to that sort of thing
2.)  Boobs=Good
3.)  Egg laying species haven't evolved that way here but nothing makes it impossible
4.)  This brings up an omission of the system where is the boob magic?


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## Gundark

hoo-ray for boobies


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## Driddle

Well, since there was already such a HUUUUUGE demand to have the dragonborn race included in 4th edition ( :\ ), I'd assume this issue would have already been decided by generally canonized house rules and fan art.


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## Kahuna Burger

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> The mistake here is trying to apply realism to D&D. D&D's not realistic. At all. It's a big old mess of four-armed apes, exploding ice monsters, things that shouldn't be able to fly but can and plants that walk around.



This argument always arises and almost never works for me. Logic doesn't have to go out the window when a single element of fantasy enters a work, or even a dozen elements. If egg laying reptiles with giant breasts are within your logic comfort zone, good on you. No one is making a "mistake" by placing it outside of theirs.


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## HeavenShallBurn

Where are these pictures anyway in _Races & Classes_?  Because I don't think I've seen any in the previews.


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## zen_hydra

Dragonborn should be one large, ambulatory mammary gland, which is constantly lactating.

End of discussion.


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## Midknightsun

I started to laugh, and then realized this wasn't a humor thread.

I started to cry when I saw three pages devoted to this already.

Horrible mammories will haunt me for the rest of the day now.

If this isn't a sign that WotC needs to give more info for us to chew on, I don't know what is, cause right now, I'm almost ashamed to be a gamer geek.

I think I'm gonna go now and kick some puppies . . . and weep some more.


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## RPG_Tweaker

GameOgre said:
			
		

> Im all for Boobs on everything.





Hey... how about a Warboob class?

Probably a defender or controller, with various distraction powers.


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## Meeki

Hmm... how about dragonborn udders instead?  That way it won't be provacative and you can have an extra source of income.


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## lukelightning

I say dragons and dragonborn are primarily reptilian, therefore no boobs. And for the males, two penises!




			
				mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> And you think dragonborn gender being visually unidentifiable is too much to take?




Obviously someone is afraid of hooking up with a dragonborn of ambiguous sex.


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## billd91

You know, I like bewbs as much as the next heterosexual male, but I'm all for being different with the dragonborn and any other non-mammalian species in D&D. If the concept of the species does not suggest lactation, then there should be no breasts or nipples of any sort. 

If you want to include some other outward signal of a creature's fitness/sexual maturity (male or female) then figure out the species's ecological niche, think about its evolution, and come up with something else that makes sense. Maybe a color change from better camouflaged adolescent to richer colored adult, different texture to the skin/scales, or a noticeable scent.


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## Voadam

I'm not really up on the descriptions of dragonborn, I'm not sure if they are supposed to be dragon men and have traits of both men and dragons or merely bipedal small dragons with articulated claws. I could be fine with images either way.

I like the yuan ti woman picture from the FR serpent book and a bunch of half dragon women who all do have breasts, but I don't think I've seen any distinguishable boobs on lizardfolk, troglodytes, or even 3e kobolds and I've been fine with that too.


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## Lord Fyre

billd91 said:
			
		

> You know, I like bewbs as much as the next heterosexual male, but I'm all for being different with the dragonborn and any other non-mammalian species in D&D. If the concept of the species does not suggest lactation, then there should be no breasts or nipples of any sort.




I am 110% behind the idea of including "cheesecake" in the art of D&D.  So yes:  Boobs = Good!     

But on something as "inhuman" as dragonborn?  They make no sense.  In that case: Boobs < Good!   :\


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## Aust Diamondew

I say we give male dragonborn colorful extending skin flaps under the neck and jaw, like what anoles have.

Not sure what those things are called but they look cool and I always wanted to have one.

Not sure about boobs for females, but proably no, instead they can lay eggs.


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## Sadrik

Naga, and Medusa have boobs.


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## Lonely Tylenol

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
			
		

> Just to note:
> 
> There are mammals that lay eggs.  So that shouldn't disqualify a species from nursing outright.
> 
> Species don't nurse because they don't nurse, not because they lay eggs.



Mammals that lay eggs don't have nipples.  They ooze nutrient from patches on their skin.


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## I'm A Banana

Potential Options:

Females are demonstrably larger than males
Females are drab, males are brightly colored (at least while looking for a mate)
Males have elaborate frills, horns, throat-sacks, etc. (at least while looking for a mate)
Males have a nub on their tails they uncontrollably beat the ground with (at least while looking for a mate)

I think I'm most happy with the idea of a Dr. Zoidberg-like frill just popping up when the season strikes.

And I think I'd still like them to give live birth. Bipdedalism like humans have isn't the most comfortable position for nesting, I'd expect them to look more avian if they did that. Though I guess reptilian nesting doesn't involve much sitting on the eggs to begin with....


----------



## Tewligan

GameOgre said:
			
		

> Im thinking even a monster or two. Something like a Boobholder"beholder".



Oh god. I so want to Photoshop up a giant levitating boob, with a gaping fanged mouth and covered with nipples shooting various magical effects. I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't be a grandma-friendly picture, though.


----------



## ruleslawyer

Sadrik said:
			
		

> Naga, and Medusa have boobs.



I'm willing to see medusae as more "mythological human-based creature" than reptile. The only thing that makes them snaky is their hair, which, along with their petrifying appearance, could as easily be the result of their divine curse. As for nagas: No, I don't think they do have breasts. None of the ones I've seen in D&D art do, anyway.

Anyway, point is that there are already *plenty* of human-like races with sufficiently plausible anatomies to get the cheesecake fans salivating. I'd rather see something like a dragonborn look demonstrably reptilian, maybe even more T-Rex like (minus the tiny arms).


----------



## kennew142

In real life, I am pro-boob. As for Dragonborn, I prefer no-boobs. I thought the female dragonborn in the book would have been distinguishably female without the boobs.


----------



## ehren37

No boobs.

No wangs for that matter.


----------



## Skade

oh, just dispense sex entirely and have them reproduce by cellular division at some point in their life.   Forget adolescence too because cr's are more of a pain for kids than it's worth.  Aging is silly also for a race based on dragons, they should just change categories at a point in the future, long outside the scope of the campaign.

So, ageless, genderless, divisioning non reptiles.  everyone wins.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Umbran said:
			
		

> There is?  In a tabletop game the words "my character is a female" are not enough?
> 
> I don't think there's much point to putting breasts on dragonborn unless you are trying to sexualize them for human viewing - making it basically a question of marketing, and the artwork you'll be using to help sell the game to real-world humans, rather than one of fantasy biology.
> 
> For me, putting breasts on something that is more reptilian than mammalian is likely to come across as jarring, and a deliberate attempt to use sex to sell me the book.  Vaguely insulting, even.



QFT


----------



## ehren37

Frukathka said:
			
		

> How about a trio? Like that girl from Total Recall.





The chick from Warrior and the Sorceress laughs at her lesser boobed cousin.

Given how real those things looked, and how shoddy everything else was in that movie, I'm not unconvinced thety managed to find some real four boobed mutie...


----------



## Brown Jenkin

RPG_Tweaker said:
			
		

> Hey... how about a Warboob class?
> 
> Probably a defender or controller, with various distraction powers.




It would work even better if I could take the Golden Boob Adept feat as well.


----------



## diaglo

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> I voted no boobs for the dragonborn. I've never seen boobs on a dragon (which they are evidently closely tied to) or any other reptilian D&D creature.
> 
> It just doesn't make sense.
> 
> What would make sense IMO might be to make
> 
> a) dragonborn females larger
> b) dragonborn males more colourful.
> 
> Cheers



i approve of this message.


----------



## Stormtalon

I, for one, welcome our new lacto-reptilian overlords!


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

FreeXenon said:
			
		

> There is something about this I really like. I have been doing some reading reading on mating and this makes some sense. Isn't his found amongst some species of birds? I might be way off with this...



Sexual size dimorphism is determined mostly by the mating system of the organism in question.  The more male-male competition there is, the more likely that the males will be larger than females.  If additional eggs will significantly increase a female's chances of reproductive success, she's more likely to be larger than the male, just so she can contain more eggs.  This is one of the reasons that female mammals are not usually larger than males: the requirement for post-natal care puts an upper limit on the number of offspring that is not present in most non-mammalian species, so they can't use the "make lots of low-quality babies, hope some survive" strategy that often occurs in species with no parental care.  Therefore, there's little advantage in being larger than males, since the energy spent growing bigger could be put into making higher-quality babies which are more likely to survive.

So yes, it's found in some birds and reptiles, but it's hard to generalize about things like mating systems and dimorphisms.  Quite often males are larger because being larger has advantages for males that aren't present for females.


----------



## Arcadio

Boobed dragonborn bring us that much closer to humans and dragonborn mating, which brings us that much closer to half-dragonborn.  And if a race can't produce offspring with humans, does it really belong in the PHB?


----------



## Piratecat

Voss said:
			
		

> And not hexapods and we're back to reptiles.  Your side trip to dragonland was pretty meaningless, wasn't it?
> ...
> Ah.  I didn't realize you were arguing for the sake of being argumentative.  'WotC can do whatever they want because it isn't real' is a circular argument that doesn't lead anywhere.
> They could make all the monsters Neo-pets or Pokemon if they really wanted to.



Voss, if you can't be polite, don't post. Hostility isn't appropriate.


----------



## Arnwyn

I have no idea how a question with the options of "Yes to boobs" and "No to boobs" could go in any way other than one direction.


----------



## Drowbane

Kobu said:
			
		

> Dragons aren't reptiles.



nor are they mammals.


----------



## Driddle

kennew142 said:
			
		

> In real life, I am pro-boob.




That should be put on a T-shirt.


----------



## Sadrik

ruleslawyer said:
			
		

> I'm willing to see medusae as more "mythological human-based creature" than reptile. The only thing that makes them snaky is their hair, which, along with their petrifying appearance, could as easily be the result of their divine curse. As for nagas: No, I don't think they do have breasts. None of the ones I've seen in D&D art do, anyway.
> 
> Anyway, point is that there are already *plenty* of human-like races with sufficiently plausible anatomies to get the cheesecake fans salivating. I'd rather see something like a dragonborn look demonstrably reptilian, maybe even more T-Rex like (minus the tiny arms).



Marilith.


----------



## James Heard

Li Shenron said:
			
		

> What is the purpose of reading visually a monster's gender?



Selling books, not having to send artwork back because artists like boobs and tend to draw them any chance they get? I'm just being practical, if they don't have boobs then you're making artwork more complex and unless you have some sort of other visual grab that gets firmly established so thoroughly that it's concrete in the minds of your artists "no boobs" will likely be forgotten anyways in favor of "garments that suggest boobs" and "plates that suggest cleavage" and the like. You could probably count on whatever you ask for lasting through a few books, and if the creatures don't have a lot of staying power then that's probably enough. If they're featured prominently in a book though, with lots of variations of the monster then you're going to eventually hit the point where sexual characteristics like boobs start popping up anyways. If you're going to use them heavily then why fight it? Better to try to downplay it and keep the boobs from looking like they belong on Wonder Woman.


----------



## ruleslawyer

Sadrik said:
			
		

> Marilith.



Mariliths aren't nagas; they're demons. Big difference. Demons don't need to reproduce biologically or have any evolutionary reason for their design; they're representations of ideological elements given flesh. Mariliths have breasts for the same reason succubi do; because they look right for the demon in mortal consciousness, or because the Abyss says so, or whatever.

Not that I think that anatomy for fantasy creatures needs to make sense; I'm just suggesting that there's no reason *not* to make dragonborn more distinctly reptilian. It's cooler.


----------



## Nahat Anoj

So this is the first time I saw this poll, and I see "no boobs" beating out "boobs."  How ... on ... EARTH could this be???  Boobs are wonderful!


----------



## Sadrik

ruleslawyer said:
			
		

> Mariliths aren't nagas; they're demons. Big difference. Demons don't need to reproduce biologically or have any evolutionary reason for their design; they're representations of ideological elements given flesh. Mariliths have breasts for the same reason succubi do; because they look right for the demon in mortal consciousness, or because the Abyss says so, or whatever.
> 
> Not that I think that anatomy for fantasy creatures needs to make sense; I'm just suggesting that there's no reason *not* to make dragonborn more distinctly reptilian. It's cooler.



Didn't say they were its just another example.


----------



## Lord Fyre

Jonathan Moyer said:
			
		

> So this is the first time I saw this poll, and I see "no boobs" beating out "boobs."  How ... on ... EARTH could this be???  Boobs are wonderful!




Yes, on a HUMAN female "Boobs are wonderful!"

On a near human female (elf, tiefling, even dwarf, halfling or gnome, etc.) Boobs can be good.

As I said earlier in this thread,  I am all for "cheesecake" and "beefcake" in D&D's (and in their published world setting's) art.  Even for just marketing purposes.  

But there is no need to sexualize a mamilian species.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Sadrik said:
			
		

> Marilith.



A marilith is a human's torso (plus extra arms) stuck onto a snake.  It has boobs because of the "human torso" part.  I'm just going to say here that this objection applies to all monsters that are chimeras of human women plus something else.  A mermaid is a human torso plus a fish.  A sphinx is a human torso plus a lion.  A centaur is a human torso plus a horse, etc.  If you start with a human torso, you've got boobs because you imported them.  The dragonborn aren't chimeras.  They aren't a human torso on a dragon's legs, or anything like that, so there's no reason why they need boobs except, as Umbran pointed out, to titillate in a really disturbing fashion.


----------



## Nahat Anoj

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> Thank you for giving me this rare opportunity to vote yes to boobs.



I think this is the threadwinner so far.  Followed closely by Wulf's "mithril chain shirt can wait."  All IMO, natch.


----------



## Nahat Anoj

Midknightsun said:
			
		

> I started to laugh, and then realized this wasn't a humor thread.
> 
> I started to cry when I saw three pages devoted to this already.
> 
> Horrible mammories will haunt me for the rest of the day now.
> 
> If this isn't a sign that WotC needs to give more info for us to chew on, I don't know what is, cause right now, I'm almost ashamed to be a gamer geek.
> 
> I think I'm gonna go now and kick some puppies . . . and weep some more.



I hear ya man, I hear ya.


----------



## GreatLemur

bgaesop said:
			
		

> Having male and female Dragonborn visually identical would make them too alien a race for me to consider including in my games. There's just no way you could work them into a shared society with the other races without distinct genders, and so until I see artwork that convinces me it can be done without boobs I'll have to vote boobs.



That really sounds pretty insane to me.  I take it you can't play with warforged either, then?


----------



## Scribble

UndeadScottsman said:
			
		

> The never evolved; they were made by a god or gods.  Therefore it really doesn't matter if reptiles that evolved on earth don't have breasts IMO.
> 
> Give 'em breasts since they're a core-race and breasts are among the easiest identifiers of gender; especially on something so alien as they are.  Most people aren't herpetologists.




Yes! Exactly. And were I a god (and I'm not saying I'm not) the first thing I would do would be to MAKE MORE BOOBS!


----------



## Wulfram

I suspect that if female dragonborn are too unfeminine they'll get ignored by many players, as well as the artists, so it's probably a good idea to give them breasts even if it doesn't make a huge amount of sense.  They'll be of more use that way


----------



## Aeolius

They aren't boobs, they are vestigial flight glands....errr.. underdeveloped balance bladders....errr... nevermind.


----------



## Thunderfoot

I like boobs, they are fun, they are wonderfully made,....they are mammalian and therefore no boobies for dragonborn.  Not that they stand a chance of being allowed in my games anyway.  Much like the tiefling, they have no place.


----------



## Zamkaizer

Guys, it doesn't matter if official art of Dragonborn includes breasts. The upstanding members of the furry fandom will put them on them regardless. Depending on the delicateness of your sensibilities, I'd avoid DeviantArt around July if I were you.


----------



## Nightmare Toilet

Well, female draconians and other dragon types and saurians don't have them, do they?

I am all for them wherever possible but something really draconic just doesn't fit (maybe that's why I have no interest in this race and prefer half-dragon nymphs....)

I thought it was already canon that female dragons are larger? Of course this follows in with bugs and things where the male tends to get killed during or after ....

New Spell: Creeping Ghoul Boobs: All these boobs swarm across the floor and walls, shooting at their target, attacking with fanged mouths.

New Spell Bigby's ... : ) HAHAHA.

New Item: Implants of Charisma: Press these to your chest and the painlessly merge with you. If you are a male, you become female and lose 4 pts of charisma and die because your wisdom already hit 0. If you are a female, you gain 4 pts Charisma and lose 2 pts intelligence if you fail a saving throw.

New Item: Breast of Vecna's Sister: (Do we want to know?)

New Class: Boob Master! : )


----------



## Aeolius

Nightmare Toilet said:
			
		

> New Class: Boob Master!




Boobarians?  

This whole thread has me pining for reruns of Match Game.


----------



## Scribble

Nightmare Toilet said:
			
		

> New Item: Implants of Charisma: Press these to your chest and the painlessly merge with you. If you are a male, you become female and lose 4 pts of charisma and die because your wisdom already hit 0. If you are a female, you gain 4 pts Charisma and lose 2 pts intelligence if you fail a saving throw.




Don't forget the bonuses to perform (dancing) and acrobatics...


----------



## Thunderfoot

Nightmare Toilet said:
			
		

> <SNIP>
> 
> New Item: Breast of Vecna's Sister: (Do we want to know?)<SNIP>



BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




I just changed my undies....now I have to again, thanks a lot!


----------



## Badkarmaboy

Silliest thread evar.  That's right, evar.


----------



## HeinorNY

Badkarmaboy said:
			
		

> Silliest thread evar.  That's right, evar.



So just let it for those who really care about... boobs.


----------



## RigaMortus2

Lord Xtheth said:
			
		

> I support breasts in any way I can!




Perhaps you were a bra in a former life?


----------



## Dausuul

Wulfram said:
			
		

> I suspect that if female dragonborn are too unfeminine they'll get ignored by many players, as well as the artists, so it's probably a good idea to give them breasts even if it doesn't make a huge amount of sense.  They'll be of more use that way




I don't think the "female dwarf" issue really applies here.  Nobody wanted to play bearded dwarven women because they looked like really ugly human women.  Dragonborn don't look like human anything, and nobody who wants a human-looking character is going to play one whether they have breasts or not.


----------



## Kunimatyu

Not a fan of non-human-female breasts. Breasts aren't always good -- but I'm sure many ENWorlders can look down for a second and realize that.   

I'd prefer male crests or bulkier females, if there has to be a sexual dimorphism at all.


----------



## BigFreekinGoblinoid

I can't believe I have witnessed a poll on ENWorld where "No boobs" is the leading reply!

I have two words for you people: 

Dejah Thoris


Happy Holidays to those of you using Google (Images).


----------



## Cadfan

Do we have any pictures of dragonborn available online that we could use as a reference?

For me it really depends on how saurian we're talking.  They're human/dragon hybrids in terms of design.  If they're awfully human looking, they need to look human enough to register as scaly people.  If they're just flat out saurian, its less of a concern.

If you're going to give them human-style gender dimorphic facial features, I think you need to do the rest of the body as well.  It might not be realistic in a strict sense, but it fits the traditional way that animal/people get drawn.  Nobody insisted that Shifters have their mammaries located somewhere around their beltline.


----------



## IanB

Umbran said:
			
		

> There is?  In a tabletop game the words "my character is a female" are not enough?
> 
> I don't think there's much point to putting breasts on dragonborn unless you are trying to sexualize them for human viewing - making it basically a question of marketing, and the artwork you'll be using to help sell the game to real-world humans, rather than one of fantasy biology.
> 
> For me, putting breasts on something that is more reptilian than mammalian is likely to come across as jarring, and a deliberate attempt to use sex to sell me the book.  Vaguely insulting, even.




I hesitate to make a post that is just "me too" but... me too.


----------



## Lord Fyre

BigFreekinGoblinoid said:
			
		

> I can't believe I have witnessed a poll on ENWorld where "No boobs" is the leading reply!
> 
> I have two words for you people:
> 
> Dejah Thoris




Not as clear as it sounds.

Burroughs wanted to make the "humans" of Barsoom strange and alien, so he made them "egg laying."

But for story reasons, he needed *Dejah Thoris * to be sexually attractive to human John Carter, so she had to look very much like human female (and a beautiful one at that).  So the story needs trumped any boilogical logic.

A D&D world does not have this problem.  There are lots of human (and near human) women arround (many of them also quite beautiful).  So there is no pressing story reason why a Earthman hero has to fall in love with a Dragonborn heroine.


----------



## Nightmare Toilet

Then again, I just remembered that I once drew a very draconic female with quite nice (huge) proportions, even thought the neck and head were totally dragon and she had dragon wings and scales and tail and spikes. Yup, she had quite big breasts and rear, so it does work visually after all. : )


----------



## Lord Fyre

Nightmare Toilet said:
			
		

> Then again, I just remembered that I once drew a very draconic female with quite nice (huge) proportions, even thought the neck and head were totally dragon and she had dragon wings and scales and tail and spikes. Yup, she had quite big breasts and rear, so it does work visually after all.




Okay, but bizzare cheesecake art aside, is it necessary (or even desirable) for a clearly inhuman race like Dragonborn?

I support Dragonborn having some for of sexual dimorphism.  But they are not mammals.


----------



## Nightmare Toilet

Maybe the female breasts in the dragonborn have a different function, like where the babies get their dragon-magic from. Dragons are magical. The Female's breasts could be not for physical nutrition but for magical nutrition!


----------



## Nightmare Toilet

New item: Boob of World Rending : )

New item: Boob of Endless Milk (and apparently a new plane, the Plane of Milk)

New Monster: Were-boob! When there is a full moon, watch out!

New Monster: Milk Elemental (eats children and wears their faces, asks people if they have seen them. It can take on the appearance of any child it has devoured.)


----------



## Lord Fyre

*Okay, let's try from a different direction.*

Here is another reason not to give Dragonborn female mammary glands.

In fantasy gaming settings, human women (not girls) are *not* getting the respect that they deserve!

Human women are beautiful.
Human women have boobs.  (I don't mean human men/boys in this instance)    
So, we don't need female dragonborn to provide sufficient "cheesecake" for Dungeons & Dragons.


----------



## JohnSnow

Voss said:
			
		

> Ah.  I knew someone would pull the hexapod thing out.  How predictable.
> 
> But still, if they aren't tetrapods they *really* can't be mammals.  So still no mammaries.




Are you suggesting that Centaurs (also hexapods) should also lack boobs? Blasphemy! 

It's fantasy. I don't care really. But just to be contrary, I voted *for* dragonborn boobs.

More seriously, I'd like to see their backstory make sense with their appearance. If they're a naturally-evolved race, then the boobs should go. However, if the backstory of Dragonborn origins is that they are a truebreeding race descended from ancient humans who made a pact with dragons (just as the tieflings are descended from humans who made a pact with devils), then it would stand to reason that the dragonborn would more closely resemble their ages-past human forebears. Which would mean breasts for females.

So, in other words, let's see the art match the flavor text.

My two cents.


----------



## cignus_pfaccari

Since they're fairly obviously meant to be reptilian, obvious mammary glands are probably not called for, as they bend the sense of disbelief too far.  Heck, dragons have never been mentioned in existing fluff nursing their young, why should dragonborn?  For that matter, do lizardmen or troglodytes nurse?  No?  Okay, then.

Some form of dimorphism is called for, like the aforementioned size difference, crests, coloration, etc.

Brad


----------



## Midknightsun

> obvious mammary glands are probably not called for,




Obvious mammary glands are _always_ called for. . . . _always_.


----------



## James Heard

All I'm sayin' is that you guys can say "No boobs" all you like, but once artists get a hold on them they're going to be green, scaly, and they're probably going to have boobs anyway (even if they're just "suspiciously large chest plates with rounded shapes that conveniently form cleavage") Either that, or you're going to end up with lizards in lipstick and frankly if there's lipstick involve I'd rather have the boobs to go along with it just so other associations don't get made.


----------



## Imp

Great, so when do we get to the thri-kreen jubblies?


----------



## Nifft

Imp said:
			
		

> Great, so when do we get to the thri-kreen jubblies?



 And remember, they're hexapods, so they get EXTRA jubblies.

 -- N


----------



## mara

James Heard said:
			
		

> All I'm sayin' is that you guys can say "No boobs" all you like, but once artists get a hold on them they're going to be green, scaly, and they're probably going to have boobs anyway (even if they're just "suspiciously large chest plates with rounded shapes that conveniently form cleavage") Either that, or you're going to end up with lizards in lipstick and frankly if there's lipstick involve I'd rather have the boobs to go along with it just so other associations don't get made.




What other associations?


----------



## Cadfan

I have to ask again.

Do we have any pictures here?

Because my opinion changes depending on the overall appearance of the dragonborn.  If we're talking "people with scales," then they need breasts on the women or else they'll just look weird.  If we're talking "lizards that walk upright," then breasts WILL look weird.

And for what its worth, giving the dragonborn breasts isn't automatically fan service.  I'm usually the fan service police, and even I understand the difference between a woman having breasts (most do), and a woman being fan service.


----------



## Stormtalon

Cadfan said:
			
		

> I have to ask again.
> 
> Do we have any pictures here?
> 
> Because my opinion changes depending on the overall appearance of the dragonborn.  If we're talking "people with scales," then they need breasts on the women or else they'll just look weird.  If we're talking "lizards that walk upright," then breasts WILL look weird.
> 
> And for what its worth, giving the dragonborn breasts isn't automatically fan service.  I'm usually the fan service police, and even I understand the difference between a woman having breasts (most do), and a woman being fan service.




As I have the book, here's a description that should help:

They're heavily scaled (scales seem thick and distinct), muscular humanoids: digitigrade legs, heads and facial features quite draconic (sorta remind me of 3.x copper dragons as far as faces go), arms and torsos perhaps a bit more humanlike than lizardmen, stance is decidedly more upright for sure despite the legs, and they've got a heavy, muscular tail.  

That enough info to go on sans picture?


----------



## Shortman McLeod

kunadam said:
			
		

> They can still technically give birth. There are a number of lizards (also fish) that "give birth" see the wikipedia entry on vivipary. So that would no be a problem.




Dude, who can trust wikipedia? Anyone could have written that article!


----------



## Rykion

The female Dragonborn from R&C has a feminine outline and boobs.  She is still very reptilian.  The females have cheek frills like the males, but the one pictured doesn't have the beard-like chin frill the males have.  



			
				Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> Dragonborn do present an oppertunity for a different family model than the mammalian standard. Do Dragonborn even raise their young, or do they lay a clutch in the hot sands and leave? Maybe the clutch hatches all together and survives (or not) together until they are  year old, at which point an existing warband will allow them to join. They reach full physical size by 5 years old but sexual maturity at 50, when they largely retire from adventuring and join hidden desert cities.



They appear to only lay one egg on average, as R&C talks about child in the singular.  The parents stay together until the child is 3, and then go their own ways as Dragonborn are usually solitary.  One parent raises the child alone after that.  At 12 the child is full sized, but isn't considered adult until 15.  The parent is expected to teach the child their  ancestral history and stories of past heroes.  They have a Klingon death before dishonor vibe.  They can live to be 70, but usually choose death in battle over growing old and infirm.  

They are not half-dragons.  They're an ancient race by R&C that once served dragons in an ancient empire.


----------



## kunadam

Shortman McLeod said:
			
		

> Dude, who can trust wikipedia? Anyone could have written that article!



At least I know of lizards and sharks being viviparous (giving birth to live offspring).

Check _Lacerta vivipara_ it is a quite common lizard.

The phenomenon exist.

*As for pictures of dragonborn here is one*:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4spot/20071218a


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

While I am definitely pro-boobs for mammalian species, the reptiles should be flat chested.


If they insist on having mammary glands, they should have six or eight, just to be different.


----------



## ehren37

Oh the hawtness.


----------



## Lord Fyre

ehren37 said:
			
		

> Oh the hawtness.




Aside from the corporate logo . . . what image would that be?


----------



## pawsplay

lukelightning said:
			
		

> I say dragons and dragonborn are primarily reptilian, therefore no boobs. And for the males, two penises!




Two _forked_ penises! Penes? Penii?



> Obviously someone is afraid of hooking up with a dragonborn of ambiguous sex.




Viva la Internet!


----------



## pawsplay

Jraynack said:
			
		

> Evidently, you were never a very, very desperate 12 year old boy.




Hey, if you were that desperate, does it matter?


----------



## HeavenShallBurn

As a furry I could easily dump 50+ images of "dragon-people" with boobs into the discussion.
But that would just clutter up the thread.  Instead I'll ask one simple question.

Why not boobs, don't you like them?


----------



## Lurker37

I'd like to thank you all for the insightful and philosophical discussion on the grave and serious matter of boobs.

IMO, we are left with three points to consider:

1) Are Dragonborn young hatched ready for solids, or do they require milk? ( Secreting from skin patches really doesn't work well with wearing clothing, let alone armour. Besides, breastfeeding is an iconic image of motherhood, whereas licking stuff off skin is kinda icky - and in a desert, sandy.)

2) What is the origin of the Dragonborn race? Are Dragonborn evolved reptiles, a variant draconic species, or transformed humans? The latter would entail vestigial traits that may not serve a practical purpose.

3) Which option is going to appeal to a larger segment of the market , and cause less arguments with artists and recalls of artwork? 

I believe WoTC was mainly looking at 3.


----------



## pawsplay

Cadfan said:
			
		

> I voted yes.
> 
> I'm usually very anti fan service, so voting "yes" to boobs makes me cringe a bit.
> 
> But my personal taste is to have them look more at least somewhat human, rather than like small bipedal dragons.  And I think that gender dimorphism that at least roughly maps onto human gender dimorphism helps make them feel more accessible.
> 
> Technically, there's nothing that says that they can't lay eggs AND nurse young.  Maybe they're monotremes.




Oh, that's what D&D needs... anthropomorphic duck-billed platypi that look like dragons. That way, we can combine the Talislantan Aeriad boob controversy with the Gloranthan duck controversy. Shortly thereafter, civilization will collapse, and we'll all have front row seats.


----------



## Imp

Well you know what they say, you can't make a points-of-light omelette without breaking a few eggs.


----------



## I'm A Banana

Uhm...I just paged through R&C today.....

.....there's a female dragonborn rogue.

She's wearing something over her chest.

So either female dragonborn DO have bewbs.....or that rogue is just *weird*.


----------



## Lurks-no-More

Badkarmaboy said:
			
		

> Silliest thread evar.  That's right, evar.



It certainly wins the booby prize. 



			
				Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> So either female dragonborn DO have bewbs.....or that rogue is just *weird*.



Male DB: "I have got to ask: why the sash across the chest? I thought it might be a sign of identification with your companions in the adventuring party, but since you've changed it several time, that cannot be it."

Female DB: "Oh, that. I just wear it to preserve the human sensibilities; once they realized I was a woman walking around bare-chested, they became very agitated. This was the easiest way to placate them. Mammals..." *eyeroll*



Anyhow, as for the warforged and their lack of (metallic) boobs, the race's meta-purpose is to be a sort-of enigma, blurring the lines between living things and machines, exploring issues of identity and purpose, and so forth. Thus, having their bodies be asexual and unconnected with their mental gender (if any; I could certainly see there being a whole bunch of asexual WF, or ones coming up with entirely new ideas of gender) is perfectly fitting.


----------



## kunadam

Lurker37 said:
			
		

> 1) Are Dragonborn young hatched ready for solids, or do they require milk? ( Secreting from skin patches really doesn't work well with wearing clothing, let alone armour. Besides, breastfeeding is an iconic image of motherhood, whereas licking stuff off skin is kinda icky - and in a desert, sandy.)



They are ready for solids. Come on, reptiles are ready for life after they hatch (birds too, but they are technically reptiles anyway).



			
				Lurker37 said:
			
		

> 2) What is the origin of the Dragonborn race? Are Dragonborn evolved reptiles, a variant draconic species, or transformed humans? The latter would entail vestigial traits that may not serve a practical purpose.



They are a draconic species. They have nothing to do with humans (not transformed, no half-breeds).


----------



## HeavenShallBurn

1.)  Dragons=Good
2.)  Boobs=Good
3.)  Dragons+Boobs>Dragons /=Boobs

Therefore bring on the dragon boobs


----------



## Zweischneid

kunadam said:
			
		

> They are ready for solids. Come on, reptiles are ready for life after they hatch (birds too, but they are technically reptiles anyway).




Birds are warmblooded, reptiles are not. Thats one big difference, likely more than that between Birds and Mammals.



			
				kunadam said:
			
		

> They are a draconic species. They have nothing to do with humans (not transformed, no half-breeds).




You sure? Wouldn't want to miss the 4e version of the seedy tavern, where beguiling thiefling and dragonborn maids tempt the young Paladins with their exotic bosom...


----------



## Doug McCrae

In Eberron I believe all warforged have male-shaped bodies (though they can have male or female personalities strangely) which makes sense as they are built for war.

Ofc people being people, once the war was over the first thing they'd use living constructs for would be sex.

Loveforged - attractive female-shaped living constructs. +2 cha instead of +2 con.


----------



## Eldragon

Some warforged are crafted to appear and sound feminine. And in those cases they are given armor plates that give the viewer the idea of breasts, but they are quite flat by human standards (And practically non-existent by Fantasy art standards).


I'm against Dragonborn women having breasts. There is enough anthropomorphism in Sci-fi/Fantasy media as it is.


----------



## Sara_G

I'm playing a female Dragonborn Paladin right now. She's not voluptuous. She's badass.


----------



## HeapThaumaturgist

Probably I'll tweak in my own games.  If I allow Dragonborn in at all it'll probably be with the males being smaller and possessing obvious colored display organs like articulated crests.  The females will be significantly larger and physically more powerful while visually uninteresting and rather hard to see against the backdrop of their traditional swampland homes.

And then I'll call them Lizardfolk.

--fje


----------



## I'm A Banana

> She's not voluptuous. She's badass.




What, voluptuous dragonborn can't be badass, too? 

I guess if the R&C illo is anything to go by, they won't be especially, how shall I say, Vajello-worthy glands typically. A little less Pam Anderson, a little more Kiera Knightly...


----------



## Stormtalon

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> I guess if the R&C illo is anything to go by, they won't be especially, how shall I say, Vajello-worthy glands typically. A little less Pam Anderson, a little more Kiera Knightly...




And that is not a bad thing at all, really.  I'm just glad you didn't bring up references to Grace Jones in "Conan the Destroyer" which....  I....  just....  did.  Gah.

Off to scrub my brain with a brillo pad again....


----------



## I'm A Banana

> that is not a bad thing at all, really.




Well, for my milage...





Beats




Any day of the week.

But I'm a man of iconoclastic taste in women. And I still don't like either o' them with scales, a tail, and spikey faceparts.


----------



## Lord Fyre

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> What, voluptuous dragonborn can't be badass, too?




I don't thinks so.  

For "cheesecake" art . . . 

Voluptuous Human Woman - probable.
Voluptious Tiefling woman - probable (being based on humans)
Voluptious Elvan/Eladrin woman - possible (but elves/eladrin are rarely so "voluptuous")
. . . would work well.  So, the artists for 4th Edition have plenty of material (and I even hope they avail themselves of the opportunity).  

What do we gain from giving such an inhuman creature as a dragonborn "boobs"?


----------



## Eldragon

For the Next Race, The Illithid (Mind Flayer) will breed with humans, and we will have...

The Decapodians! 

... which as we all know, have boobs.


----------



## JoeGKushner

They need giant breasts.

This will enable them to take certain racial feats.

Scaled breast: Your breast are heavily armored providing you with extra protection.

Lure the Mammal: Silly Creatures...

Piercing Breast: The tips of your breasts are razor sharp and ready for weapon use!


----------



## Shortman McLeod

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Well, for my milage...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beats
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any day of the week.




Hardly.  That skinny little anorexic boygirl is NOTHING compared to voluptuous Pam.  Move on.


----------



## GreatLemur

Sweet Jesus, people.  Are we _still_ talking about lizard boobs?


----------



## James Heard

Lord Fyre said:
			
		

> What do we gain from giving such an inhuman creature as a dragonborn "boobs"?



The inability to bitch when some artist draws them on anyway.


----------



## Lord Fyre

James Heard said:
			
		

> The inability to bitch when some artist draws them on anyway.




What makes you think that we would stop "bitching"?


----------



## Shortman McLeod

GreatLemur said:
			
		

> Sweet Jesus, people.  Are we _still_ talking about lizard boobs?




Doode, the PHB isn't coming out for awhile yet . . .


----------



## Lord Fyre

Shortman McLeod said:
			
		

> Doode, the PHB isn't coming out for awhile yet . . .




Yeah, we have to do something to keep ourselves occupied until then.


----------



## Rel

I think that ALL dragonborn, both male and female, should have boobs.  Big ones.

You can't go wrong with more boobs.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Rel said:
			
		

> I think that ALL dragonborn, both male and female, should have boobs.  Big ones.
> 
> You can't go wrong with more boobs.



Why stop there?  Imagine how proud a male dwarf would be if he had a rack to display his beard on.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

I'd just like to point out that Googling "dragonborn boobs" yields five pages of hits, only the first two of which are this thread.

I'm afraid to do an image search with the same string, though.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Well, for my milage...
> [snip]
> 
> Any day of the week.
> 
> But I'm a man of iconoclastic taste in women. And I still don't like either o' them with scales, a tail, and spikey faceparts.




Well, yes ... classy beats skank any day of the week and twice on Sunday.  But curves pwns flat, whether we're talking roads or women.


----------



## James Heard

Lord Fyre said:
			
		

> What makes you think that we would stop "bitching"?



The fact that once someone starts knocking out "hawt dragonborn barbarian chicks" as cover art a lot of people will be converted to simply bitching about how all fantasy artists were bottle fed, and take it as a classy versus hoochie issue.


----------



## James Heard

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Why stop there?  Imagine how proud a male dwarf would be if he had a rack to display his beard on.



He'd certainly be more fun to get drunk.


----------



## Lord Fyre

James Heard said:
			
		

> The fact that once someone starts knocking out "hawt dragonborn barbarian chicks" as cover art a lot of people will be converted to simply bitching about how all fantasy artists were bottle fed, and take it as a classy versus hoochie issue.




You scare me.


----------



## HeavenShallBurn

Lord Fyre said:
			
		

> You scare me.



Really, it's that easy?  Then I guess I shouldn't post 250 pictures of dragons with boobs it could give you a coronary


----------



## Scarbonac

Nightmare Toilet said:
			
		

> [snip]
> New Monster: Milk Elemental (eats children and wears their faces, asks people if they have seen them. It can take on the appearance of any child it has devoured.)





Sick and wrong. I approve.

Oh, and no to boobs on Dragonborn.


----------



## Lord Fyre

HeavenShallBurn said:
			
		

> Really, it's that easy?  Then I guess I shouldn't post 250 pictures of dragons with boobs it could give you a coronary




Promises, Promises!


----------



## mara

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> What, voluptuous dragonborn can't be badass, too?




She can, but she'd spend so much time fighting off Gamers Who Can't Get Laid that her talents would go to waste.


----------



## Alzrius

Baumi said:
			
		

> Where is the option for MORE boobs? Everything is better with more boobs...




Quoted for truth.


----------



## Rel

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Why stop there?  Imagine how proud a male dwarf would be if he had a rack to display his beard on.




No dude.  That would be wrong.


----------



## Angel Tarragon

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Piercing Breast: The tips of your breasts are razor sharp and ready for weapon use!



ROFL!!!!


----------



## pawsplay

My opinion on dragon boobs is that there are some fans who should not be serviced in the D&D core rulebooks.


----------



## Abisashi

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> I'd just like to point out that Googling "dragonborn boobs" yields five pages of hits, only the first two of which are this thread.
> 
> I'm afraid to do an image search with the same string, though.




I'm not. It was quite disapointing; no dragonborn and no boobs.


----------



## Dr. Strangemonkey

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Why stop there?  Imagine how proud a male dwarf would be if he had a rack to display his beard on.




I sense a motivational poster...


----------



## JoeGKushner

pawsplay said:
			
		

> My opinion on dragon boobs is that there are some fans who should not be serviced in the D&D core rulebooks.




Like Fans of the Great Wheel and Racial Pantheons. To heck with those bastiches!


----------



## Nellisir

Aeolius said:
			
		

> They aren't boobs, they are vestigial flight glands....errr.. underdeveloped balance bladders....errr... nevermind.



Maybe the breath weapon isn't a....ah...."breath" weapon?


----------



## Lord Fyre

Nellisir said:
			
		

> Maybe the breath weapon isn't a....ah...."breath" weapon?




That would depend on what your definition of "is" is.   

(And sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.)


----------



## I'm A Banana

mara said:
			
		

> She can, but she'd spend so much time fighting off Gamers Who Can't Get Laid that her talents would go to waste.




Yeah, who wants to fight off sticky-handed goblinoids when there are attractive Dark Lords to slay?

Psh. Your paladin is so superficial in the villains she associates with.


----------



## mara

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Yeah, who wants to fight off sticky-handed goblinoids when there are attractive Dark Lords to slay?
> 
> Psh. Your paladin is so superficial in the villains she associates with.




Hey, this is D&D.  The size of the villian's XP counts.


----------



## Kmart Kommando

Like the underwire, I support boobs.


----------



## I'm A Banana

> Hey, this is D&D. The size of the villian's XP counts.




Is your adventurer one of those gals who wears the "I like good boys/I LOVE bad boys" T-Shirts I have heard so much about, traveling as I do in circles of high fashion?


----------



## mara

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Is your adventurer one of those gals who wears the "I like good boys/I LOVE bad boys" T-Shirts I have heard so much about, traveling as I do in circles of high fashion?




Er, no.  That kind of stuff needlessly confuses Nice Guys (TM), making them even more annoying.  My paladin prefers full plate.


----------



## thundershot

In my campaigns, all female humanoids have boobs. They always have. They always will. I'm a big fan of boobs. Ask my wife.  

You never see animalistic humanoids with 8 boobs. They only have two. Realism has already been tossed out the door. Let the Dragonborn enjoy their boobs. 




Chris


----------



## HeinorNY

I hope the designer don't let their imagination be limited by our planet's singular evolutionary proccess.
Life forms here evolved the way they did not because that was the only way to evolve, but because that was the best way to evolve, here.
Reptiles can have boobs, hair, 3 eyes or get pregnant. They don't have in our planet because it was not needed.
It's a simple aesthetical matter, and for that I think it would be better for dragonborn to have boobs.


----------



## Mad Mac

After having a chance to look at Races and Classes, I'll have to vote in favor of boobs, for mostly aesthetic reasons. 

  Simply put, the 4th Edition Dragonborn have been designed with a humanlike bodyshape, unlike Lizardfolk, Kobolds, or Trogs, which all have much more reptile-like bodies. Erasing boobs on the female Dragonborn while keeping them remotely the way they are now would just look bad. 

  It's not like they're going to completely redo the art direction at this point anyway, so we're pretty much stuck with boobs, like them or not.


----------



## I'm A Banana

> Er, no. That kind of stuff needlessly confuses Nice Guys (TM), making them even more annoying. My paladin prefers full plate.




Whose your designer? I think Marc Jacobs has a line of full plate, right?

And of course, one must always have a Coach Bag of Holding.

...fashion jokes on an internet D&D message board....methinks perhaps I have aimed too high.


----------



## ZappoHisbane

thundershot said:
			
		

> You never see animalistic humanoids with 8 boobs. They only have two. Realism has already been tossed out the door. Let the Dragonborn enjoy their boobs.




Apparently you haven't visited the furry sections of various art gallery sites.  

Oh, and a no boobs vote from me.  I'm leaning my hopes towards a heavily matriarchal society in fact, where the females are more 'masculine' than the males.  If the fluff doesn't support me on that, it's easy enough to make a quick swap on the height/weight tables.


----------



## Zweischneid

You knew it couldn't have been any other way


----------



## Aloïsius

This is ridiculous.


----------



## Wyrmshadows

If I may add to this melange of opinion.

If dragonborn females suckle their young after their born, or hatch or whatever, then they should have boobs. I don't care if they are repitilian, mammalian or whatnot, the only question is "Do they suckle their young?"

If they suckle their young, then boobs are fine and I think it an interesting twist to have such a sauroid looking race be divergent enough to suckle its young.

If the dragonborn female doesn't suckle her young and they hatch, like young dragons, fully capable of tearing the throat out of the closest pey animal offered to them, then boobs are nothing more than a bizarre add on that is serving what is IMO a juvenile aesthetic.

Yes, I did call it juvenile and along with that, its an unsophisticated view of things that would demand that a creature that is so divergent from human (unlike elves, halflings, dwarves or even orcs and goblins) must be portrayed with human secondary sexual characteristics for the sake of "accessibility" or some other such nonsense. RPing gamers are by and large intelligent and hopefully mature enough to accept a more realistic appearing sauroid female creature.

The only gamer I could imagine saying, "That's a girl, where are the boobs?" in regards to a dragonborn are under the age of 14 to be sure. I could easily explain to my 9yr old son the following:

Son: "She's not a girl, she doesn't have boobs."

Me: "Well, you've seen dragons in paintings and in movies and you saw that they, like other creatures that at least appear reptilian like alligators, lizards or dinosaurs, don't have boobs. Dragonborn are related to dragons and don't have boobs either."

Son: "Oh, ok."

That is as complex as the conversation would need to get. If someone above the age of 11 cannot grasp this simple argument, then they have more issues than whether or not dragonborn have boobs.

And honestly, the only argument in favor of boobs on the dragonborn, if they don't suckle their young, is "Its D&D man, it doesn't have to make sense." Of course this is the worst kind of argument because it implies that fantasy equal absurdity when in fact it does not by necessity have to and that the individual making this argument doesn't really have one.



Wyrmshadows


----------



## dravot

Even the male dragonborn should have boobs.


----------



## Nightmare Toilet

Well, people can always houserule whichever way they want, but I think the basics is that  dragons are cool, beauty (breasts done properly) is good, so put them together or it just misses it. 

But then we do have half-dragonesses, which I think should just be the race used as "dragonborn", like if a society purposefully used magic or some pacts with dragons to make themselves a society of half dragons.

And now onto female illthids. Yes I know, but... Illithids are cool. Beauty = Breasts is good, so naturaly, illithid women get breasts, or at least half-illithids do, and I say make them a core race! : ) Nymph-illithid-dragonborn gestalt with breasts as a core race = yes! : )


----------



## Imp

That thing is pretty ridiculous.

They don't even have tails?


----------



## Zweischneid

Imp said:
			
		

> That thing is pretty ridiculous.
> 
> They don't even have tails?





Of course... tails obviously went to Tieflings. Got to respect the niches lest the Rangers will seek to tank, the Rogues to lead and the world come crashing to its bitter end...


----------



## Lurks-no-More

Aloïsius said:
			
		

> This is ridiculous.



If you mean this thread _still_ going on, I agree.


----------



## HeavenShallBurn

They really should have given them tails, Dragonmen just don't look right without tails.


----------



## Steely Dan

As I detest dragonborn, slaadi and most frog/toad-like races I went for the thigh man response.

Dragonborn and Tolkien's little people will not be in my campaigns.


----------



## Phasics

*Was Io a horney ole bastard or do Breasts have a purpose on Female Dargonborn ???*

Dont get me wrong I'm sure trying to differntiate male/female between 2 non huan races isnt the easiest thing but I'm curious to understand the rational behind it.

Now I'm going for at least a semi serious discussion *fingers crossed*

Now assuming that dragonborn were created when dragons were and were created by the same god, and that they both hatched from an egg why the breasts.

Do Female Dragonborn Rear thier young after they hatch. A reptillian sterotype would suggest this dosent happen and giving the fast growth of dragonborn its unlikely that a baby dragonborn wouldn't be like most reptiles and start life as a carnivor. Thus Breasts are probably not there to feed the young. Besides based on the pictures the mouth looks more like a hard beak with a long lip line good for taking big bytes but not so good for creating an airtight seal for suction

Ok so why else are they there ? Did Io look as other exiting races and simply decide he needed a nice obvious way of telling male/female apart ? This also seems unlikely as male/female true dragons dont have this difference, somehow a female Red dragon with breasts would look odd and a more relaistic cow like udder would make it lose some of its terror no ? So perhaps not a God's descision

Evolution ? Did a mutation arise in the population that male dragonborn found appealing ? Pure an astheitc desire ? again unlikely , besides this would lead to male dragonborn being just as interested in other races full figured females. again unlikely.

Was Io just a dirty ole bastard god who simply got his jollies off that way. Possibly, God are fickle somtimes but it really wouldt cut it for me as a valid explanation.

Perhaps there's somthing I've missed feel free to enlighten me why you think they should or should have a nice rack. (Yes I think we can agree that a portion of the population would just say they look better that way which is fine, I'm interested in an valid RP reason.) 
e.g. why do dragons have big teeth? for show ? hell no! all the better to BITE YOU WITH !



On a side note I wonder if the dev team considered using a real world exmaple of seperating male/female. In the animal world its quite common for males to be brightly coloured with crests and the like while the females are foten brown and pale. The males attrativeness is dependant on how magnificant he looks to the females.

Why could we not have something similar for Dragonborn, it could work for either males or females. The Physical shapes would be the same between male and female , with one potenitally larger on average than the other. Thus the only real way to tell them appart would be one of them to have plumage or flahses or colour , more refelective scales a head with much larger prominant and more intimdating horns, perhaps females have no major head horns. flpas of brightly coloured skin in the males tails they could flare out and display in a similar way a male peakcock can , but in a more cool dragon type way. So just curious why it was decided that a simple pair of Breasts was going to tell them apart ?


----------



## Rechan

There's all ready a multi-page thread on this.


----------



## Phasics

Just goes to show how rarely people look past page one  

Although I must say that thread is a simple personal opinion boobs/no boobs ? This thread is more ok they're there , now what's a valid RP reason I can run with ? (well its what I intended the thread to be anyway)


----------



## Xethreau

For someone hoping for a serious discussion, your thread name could be a bit more tone appropriate....


From a game's point of view, I think dragonborn females with breasts is fine.  We don't know that they have nipples though; for all we know it could be a culture thing for women to cover their chest (which is all it ever was, wasn't it?)

From the "Io as creator" point of view... I really can't be sure what he was thinking.  Perhaps other races were already created (unlikely) and he modeled his creation after them.  Or conversely, the other race's design might be based on the Dragonborn, but made to fit the needs and wants of the other gods. What a twist!


----------



## Phasics

RyukenAngel said:
			
		

> For someone hoping for a serious discussion, your thread name could be a bit more tone appropriate....




I'm pretty sure I said semi-serious   ,hence the not completly serious tone of heading.

Amusing reasons are no less valid than completly seriou ones and I choose not to exclude them from this thread. hell somone might come up with somthing of a cosmic joke amoung gods as to why they are there which is acutally well though out enough to be a reasonable RP reason.


----------



## Phasics

On a semi amusing note

Who to say the breasts are not a recent additon (by recent still before modern recorded history unknown to 99.99% of the population) and somewhat of a sore point amoung the dragonborn. The current dragonborn gods fear that their race could die out and thus altered females slightly to enable crossbreeding with other mamallian species to ensure they would always have followers even if they are not longer 100% dragonborn. The Some dragonborn of course would see this as an abombination and although they cant kill all thier females as that really would end them they dont look to kindly on weak man mammals eyeing off thier females


----------



## Drevan

Right, so first off to just get on the right page...they lay eggs...the eggs hatch...Dragonborn chicks got melons.

Okay, hows this..

Yes, post hatching, they do breast-feed their young.  The kids DO mature much faster, but they also likely require a LOT more calories and nutrients due to the rapid development.  Whats a year or two in normal children they accomplish in 3 months or so.  All the fuel for that development has to come from somewhere, and while starting junior out with half a cow to chew on when he gets hungry may work for true dragons, Dragonborn are somewhat humanoid as well, and humans require alot of nutrients and the like for the best development.  Things that maybe other sources cant give them.  THUS, dragonborn women have breasts for breast feeding their youngsters because the milk is likely a far better source of nutrition for them than an entire bucket of cow or goats milk every few hours.  Its also likely the consistency of mud...but thats just me thinking this out just a bit TOO far...

The trick isnt to look at them as lizard people, but rather to look at them as People with reptilian qualities. Conception is likely mammalian cause everyone knows hot kinky lizard person sex is all the rage these days.  The birthing is reptilian, cause the dagonborn women have to watch their girlish figure.  Nutrition is mammalian cause hot kinky lizard person sex just isnt the same without boobs, and growth and instincts are somewhat reptilian, because they develop so quickly.

So yeah, im a sad sad person for thinking that all the way out.  Im even more ashamed that I went and joined the forum purely so I could throw this out there to be read.  Ill just go back to lurking now.


----------



## (Psi)SeveredHead

It's humanoid but not human.

It doesn't have breasts.

It's obviously female.

http://eu.starcraft2.com/art.xml?s=52

I might have used different color scales, but maybe that's *too* obvious. Maybe humans should have trouble telling the genders apart.


----------



## Rechan

Drevan said:
			
		

> So yeah, im a sad sad person for thinking that all the way out.  Im even more ashamed that I went and joined the forum purely so I could throw this out there to be read.  Ill just go back to lurking now.



You are now a furry.


----------



## Drevan

Rechan said:
			
		

> You are now a furry.




<vader>NOOOOOOOOoooooooooo</vader>

Seriously though, I read the thread, and all the why's just seemed to click...I mean, it makes sense at least doesnt it?


----------



## Phasics

Drevan said:
			
		

> So yeah, im a sad sad person for thinking that all the way out.  Im even more ashamed that I went and joined the forum purely so I could throw this out there to be read.  Ill just go back to lurking now.




And to think I might have written serious instead of semi-serious and missed out on this one


----------



## Lurks-no-More

Based on my extensive research (looking at the discussion here and on RPG.net), the purpose of breasts on female dragonborn is to occupy the time of the gamers in extensive arguments about the purpose and appropriateness of breasts on female dragonborn. 

More seriously, Drevan's explanation is as good as any I've seen, if you feel you need an explanation.


----------



## HeavenShallBurn

Drevan said:
			
		

> <vader>NOOOOOOOOoooooooooo</vader>
> 
> Seriously though, I read the thread, and all the why's just seemed to click...I mean, it makes sense at least doesnt it?



Join me on the Darkside Furryside, we have cookies


----------



## Rechan

HeavenShallBurn said:
			
		

> Join me on the Darkside Furryside, we have cookies



And rootbeer!


----------



## FadedC

Keep in mind that plenty of species (including humans) have parts of their body that do not serve a purpose. Nipples on men are an obvious example.


----------



## Plane Sailing

Rechan said:
			
		

> There's all ready a multi-page thread on this.




I've merged the new thread with the old one

Cheers


----------



## Nightmare Toilet

Tiefling copromancers need something to aim their "Vorpal Cleaveland Steamer" spells at! Breasts!


----------



## Plane Sailing

Nightmare Toilet said:
			
		

> Tiefling copromancers need something to aim their "Vorpal Cleaveland Steamer" spells at! Breasts!




Your scatalogical humour is unwelcome, especially since you are spamming it across multiple posts.

If it appears any more you will be banned.


----------



## Raduin711

I say, no boobs, so long as we give a sufficiently feminine aesthetic to the female dragonborn.   A frill, a crest, a different color of scale all around... Even a pronounced female figure will work.

I have always been annoyed at the troll females in WoW for this reason.  If you look at the Male, he has a permanent hunch.  Longer fingers, nose, chin... And ugly.  The female troll looks just like a human only with tusks and blue skin.  This is in order to give the female sex appeal, which I find to be dishonest.  It's a reminder that sex sells and these companies only care about the almighty dollar.  I really don't want to be reminded of this fact whenever I see a female dragonborn.


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## Desdichado

Boobs are unique to humanoid mammals.  Are dragonborn mammals?  Do they lactate to feed their young?

I'd say probably not.

In terms of being a thigh person, dragonborn probably lay eggs too, right?  In which case, the classic feminine figure of wide "child-bearing" hips doesn't make any biological sense either.

Suck it, dragonborn lovers.  You can't tell guys from gals.


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## Rel

Hobo said:
			
		

> Suck it, dragonborn lovers.  You can't tell guys from gals.




Alas, Hobo, they've already published a picture of a dragonborn female with both boobs and pleasant curve of hips.  So I'm afraid it will be you applying the suction this time.


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## Desdichado

Rel said:
			
		

> Alas, Hobo, they've already published a picture of a dragonborn female with both boobs and pleasant curve of hips.  So I'm afraid it will be you applying the suction this time.



I already can't tell the difference.  That's why I flirt with everyone indiscriminantly.

It does lead to an abnormal amount of Crying Game situations though.


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## allenw

I voted "something boob-like."
Egg production requires concentrated stores of energy, i.e. fat.  The fat could have gone on the thighs or abdomen, but natural selection favored those female Dragonborn whose "evidence of reproductive fitness" was closer to eye-level, and thus more noticeable.  The same logic doesn't apply to Dragons, since they fly and aren't bipeds.


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## Rel

allenw said:
			
		

> I voted "something boob-like."
> Egg production requires concentrated stores of energy, i.e. fat.  The fat could have gone on the thighs or abdomen, but natural selection favored those female Dragonborn whose "evidence of reproductive fitness" was closer to eye-level, and thus more noticeable.  The same logic doesn't apply to Dragons, since they fly and aren't bipeds.




Giving rise to the saying, "Check out the evidence of reproductive fitness on her!" by teenaged dragonborn everywhere.


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## Raduin711

Rel said:
			
		

> Alas, Hobo, they've already published a picture of a dragonborn female with both boobs and pleasant curve of hips.  So I'm afraid it will be you applying the suction this time.




Ah, I hadn't really looked.  Oh well.


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## HeinorNY

Dragonborn were created by a god, and not evolved by natural selection.
They can have boobs if their creator so decided.


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## Achan hiArusa

SEXUAL DIMORPHISM IN LIZARD BODY SHAPE: THE ROLES OF SEXUAL SELECTION AND FECUNDITY SELECTION

Mats Olsson (A, B, C), Richard Shine (A), Erik Wapstra (D), Beata Ujvari (B, E), and Thomas Madsen (A, E)

A. The University of Sydney, School of Biological Sciences, Heydon-Laurence Building AO8, Sydney, New South Wales, 2006 Australia, B. The University of Gothenburg, Department of Zoology, Division of Animal Ecology, Medicinaregatan 18, SE 413 90 Gothenburg, Sweden, C. E-mail: mats.olsson@zool.gu.se, D. School of Biological Sciences, Macquarie University, Sydney, New South Wales, 2109 Australia, E. Molecular Population Biology Laboratory, Department of Animal Ecology, Lund University, S-223 62 Lund, Sweden

Abstract

Sexual dimorphism is widespread in lizards, with the most consistently dimorphic traits being head size (males have larger heads) and trunk length (the distance between the front and hind legs is greater in females). These dimorphisms have generally been interpreted as follows: (1) large heads in males evolve through male-male rivalry (sexual selection); and (2) larger interlimb lengths in females provide space for more eggs (fecundity selection). In an Australian lizard (the snow skink, Niveoscincus microlepidotus), we found no evidence for ongoing selection on head size. Trunk length, however, was under positive fecundity selection in females and under negative sexual selection in males. Thus, fecundity selection and sexual selection work in concert to drive the evolution of sexual dimorphism in trunk length in snow skinks.

Keywords: Fecundity selection, lizards, sexual dimorphism, sexual selection

Received: December 13, 2001; Accepted: April 10, 2002

DOI: 10.1554/0014-3820(2002)056[1538:SDILBS]2.0.CO;2

Section Editor: Pitnick


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## Achan hiArusa

*Double Post*

So females would be taller and broader and males would have larger heads.  Still I say no to mammaries unless dragons have them also.


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## Draxo

They really REALLy dont look right without tails.

I would so sign a petition to give dragonborn tails.. they just look -wrong- without them.


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## Lord Fyre

I am glad that we are staying abreast of this thread!


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## John Q. Mayhem

Boobs are awesome.


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## Imp

Achan hiArusa said:
			
		

> So females would be taller and broader and males would have larger heads.  Still I say no to mammaries unless dragons have them also.



Can't wait to see an adult red with a rack of udders on the next book cover they show us!


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## Incenjucar

Imp said:
			
		

> Can't wait to see an adult red with a rack of udders on the next book cover they show us!




Dragon fans are waaaaaaay ahead of you.


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## Imp

Upon further consideration the viewing of udder-endowed dragons can wait for many, many age categories.  


And keep your 2 Dragonborn 1 Cup video entertainments to your own hard drives pls thx v. much. :\


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## Goose

Never in my life did i think i would ever click a button that says "no to boobs"  but today that changed.......


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## Lurks-no-More

The thing to keep in mind, of course, is that dragons are neither lizards nor reptiles; they're dragons. And dragonborn aren't dragons; they're creatures with both human and draconic features. 

So, as usual, despite the amusement it may give, it's ultimately _utterly pointless_ to argue about these things. If you don't want female DBs to have breasts, say so to your players; if you don't mind, you don't have to do anything.


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## Piratecat

From Full Frontal Nerdity:


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## Wolfspider

Lurks-no-More said:
			
		

> The thing to keep in mind, of course, is that dragons are neither lizards nor reptiles; they're dragons. And dragonborn aren't dragons; they're creatures with both human and draconic features.




Unfortunately, Races & Classes points out that dragons and dragonborn are greater and lesser versions of the same race, respectively.

So dragonborn ARE dragons...just of lesser power.


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## Doug McCrae

Piratecat said:
			
		

> From Full Frontal Nerdity



The background for each panel looks like boobs.


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## HeinorNY

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> So dragonborn ARE dragons...just of lesser power.



And that's why dragonborn have breasts, because they suck.


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## hong

Posting in this thread is so beneath my dignity.


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## Wolfspider

I want to play a dragonborn wizard with a brassiere of commanding fire elementals.


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## Rel

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> The background for each panel looks like boobs.




Why must you assume that?  It could be an ass!


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## The Little Raven

ainatan said:
			
		

> And that's why dragonborn have breasts, because they suck.




Or because they're cooler than dragons. If I can breathe fire and have wings AND boobs, then I fail to see any drawbacks.


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## HeinorNY

Mourn said:
			
		

> Or because they're cooler than dragons. If I can breathe fire and have wings AND boobs, then I fail to see any drawbacks.



I also think the dragonborn are cool, but I couldn't lose the joke


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## Doug McCrae

ainatan said:
			
		

> And that's why dragonborn have breasts, because they suck.



You've got it backwards, you noob. Breasts don't suck, they are sucked.


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## Silvergriffon

"Something boob-like" is clearly splitting the Pro-Boob vote, and should suspend its candidacy immediately! I have a sneaking suspicion that something boob-like is actually in cahoots with old no boobs and is only staying in the race to guarantee no boobs the win. Probably in exchange for possible consideration as a variant racial off-shoot. For shame.


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## Doug McCrae

I finally had a look at the original picture. The dragon-y head and human breasts do look wrong together. It would be fine if the head was less dragon-y.

But all these arguments about it being unrealistic are dumb cause dragon-people aren't real.


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## Lord Fyre

Will this thread never die?!


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## Wolfspider

Lord Fyre said:
			
		

> Will this thread never die?!




NEVAH!

Boobies are eternal!


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## lutecius

Draxo said:
			
		

> They really REALLy dont look right without tails.
> 
> I would so sign a petition to give dragonborn tails.. they just look -wrong- without them.




wow   I hadn't realized. I really don't care about boobed dragonborns, it's not like I am ever going to date or play one. but no tail with such a draconic head? especially next to the tiefling, what were they thinking about?


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## Talislan

I would like to second the motion of Dragonborn get the dragon tale. That way boobies or not they remian dragon born and not scaly girlies with something missing.

(or maybe I should refrain from visting the pub on a friday lunch time).


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## Lord Fyre

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> NEVAH!
> 
> Boobies are eternal!




Actually, Boobies are not eternal enough.  

And, as for the artwork.  Believe me, I am 100% for boobies are human, human-like, or even mammalian females.

For something as inhuman as a Dragonborn, not so much.


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## MisterWhodat

I like the idea of six boobs as opposed to just two.


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## HeavenShallBurn

Once more!
Boobs=Good
More Boobs>Less Boobs

I vote more and bigger.  Also they should put the tail back on the dragonborn, they just don't look right without the tail.


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## Rel

I saw a "Save the Ta-Ta's" bumper sticker today and thought of this thread.

Dammit.


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## HeavenShallBurn

New 4e Dragonborn Art
Dragonborn Dominatrix(warlock paragon path)










*This post was made under the influence of sick humor, bet I still fooled you for a few seconds though anyway.


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## Wolfspider

HeavenShallBurn said:
			
		

> New 4e Dragonborn Art
> Dragonborn Dominatrix(warlock paragon path)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This post was made under the influence of sick humor, bet I still fooled you for a few seconds though anyway.




Try putting this url inside the img tags:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3231/2284525937_e0b34b9afa_o.jpg


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## HeavenShallBurn

Wolfspider said:
			
		

> Try putting this url inside the img tags:
> 
> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3231/2284525937_e0b34b9afa_o.jpg



Thanks I was fiddling with the URL trying to make it work while you were posting.  Now it does


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## Doug McCrae

HeavenShallBurn said:
			
		

> New 4e Dragonborn Art



Not bad at all. I wouldn't mind if that was 4e art.

Also, I'd do her. She is female, right?


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## HeavenShallBurn

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> Not bad at all. I wouldn't mind if that was 4e art.
> 
> Also, I'd do her. She is female, right?



judging by the puppies I'd say yes, but it is furry art so you never know what lurks outside the edges of the jpeg..  mwahahaha


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## Doug McCrae

More dragons should have lilac hair. Smaug would've looked a lot better. He'd have been all like, "You can't kill me, I'm too sexy!"


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## Lord Fyre

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> Not bad at all. I wouldn't mind if that was 4e art.
> 
> Also, I'd do her. She is female, right?




You scare me.


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## HeavenShallBurn

Lord Fyre said:
			
		

> You scare me.



I have 13gb of similar art I should scare you far more.  FEAR THE JPGs OF DOOM


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## Fallen Seraph

Actually with her skin tone, atmosphere of the pics, etc. She looks like what a Aberrative-Dragonborn be like.


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## Incenjucar

HeavenShallBurn said:
			
		

> New 4e Dragonborn Art
> Dragonborn Dominatrix(warlock paragon path)
> 
> This post was made under the influence of sick humor, bet I still fooled you for a few seconds though anyway.




That reminds me of the character who caused me to stop playing my speed-rhyming mercury dragon online.  And any other dragon or dragon-like character.  Ever.


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## hong

HeavenShallBurn said:
			
		

> I have 13gb of similar art I should scare you far more.  FEAR THE JPGs OF DOOM



 It's your reputation at stake!


----------



## HeavenShallBurn

hong said:
			
		

> It's your reputation at stake!



And your poor squicked mind.


----------



## Zelc

> Audience Member: “Do dragonborn have breasts?”, illicits “ooooo”
> 
> Chris Perkins: “Yes, and they’re scaly. Any more questions about dragonborn breasts?”



Boobs wins!   

(linky)


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## D.Shaffer

The continued arguments over dragonboobs amuses me.  Considering 3rd ed dragons can apparently crossbreed with everything under the sun to begin with, I dont think applying genetics and real life science is going to work really well anyways.  Personally, I'm going to go with the Half-Dragons' approach, they might have boobs as a result of human legacy, and they might not because of the dragon legacy, but ultimately it'll be up the player whether their dragonborn has boobs or not.


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