# Dromus Prep Thread



## Kelleris (Aug 31, 2004)

Hey guys.      Welcome to the Dromus planning thread!

     This thread is where I'll post all of my house rules, and where you guys will post your characters once they are completed.  Still working on the fluff to go with all this crunch, and I'll post that in a new thread in the "Talking the Talk" forum when it's ready (based on a vague notion that setting information is the DM's contribution to OOC stuff).  Once the final(ish) version of the house rules and characters are ready, I'll move them to a new Rogue's Gallery thread and ask you to post your final character sheet there.

     For now, though, I don't want full character sheets.  Instead, I need two things from each of you - a character concept, with brief background and any requests you have for more detail in the house rules document.

     The concept should not include much game rule information at this point, just some idea of what kinds of abilities you're looking at and what kind of person your character will be.  Obviously, I don't want full histories until I've posted more of the world you'll be playing in.

     As for the second thing, you'll notice that there are many holes in the house rules document.  It's still a work in progress, and I need to know what to prioritize.  If the Alienist looks interesting to you, post here and I'll get more information up ASAP.  If you think the new parrying rule or the changes to the Sorcerer will horribly unbalance the game, post here (or PM me) and we'll talk it over.

     That's all for now!  Hope you guys have fun sorting out your characters.  I know we're doing this in a somewhat drawn-out way, but I want to finally have something resembling a finished setting ready to go.

EDIT:  This thing won't let me upload the whole House Rules document.  That's a sign, I'm sure of it.  Anyway, I copy/pasted the entire Classes section into a different document to make it fit.


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## Tux the Penguin (Aug 31, 2004)

Well, I'm here.

As for a character concept, I'm leaning to the fighter/mage (or psion) type of character, although I might change it depending on the history and fluff, as well as what everyone else is going to be playing.


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## Zeltrachaon (Aug 31, 2004)

Hey

  I am not sure what I'm going to play yet, I need to review some of the new class information when I have more time.  I wanted to post as soon as I got the chance though.  I was thinking about making an Alchemist, but I'm not sure if it would work out well...


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## Kelleris (Aug 31, 2004)

Zeltrachaon (you know, I've been misspelling that name for years now), are you leaning more toward a wizardly or a tech-using alchemist?  The basic alchemy rules are identical for each of them, but they bring different things to the table in terms of additional abilities: a wizard has item creation feats (especially Brew Potion and Craft Wondrous Item), while a technologist has several skill-based abilities that can augment the creation of specifically alchemical items and is in the best position to take advantage of the fact that alchemical items work without magic.

I think you'll be able to manage an alchemist either way, but I'll need to work up a few things.  Alchemy is unfortunately not designed to be a centerpiece ability for 8th level characters, and you have to go a bit off the beaten path to manage it.  I've done it before with bard characters, though, and with a few new things to play with, especially the new masterwork rules, which would work well in this context, it would be even more viable.  Fortunately for you, I already have a thing for nifty nonmagical equipment.


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## Zeltrachaon (Aug 31, 2004)

hmmm...  A tech Alchemist...  I could see it working.  I was hoping there was a prestige class around for it, since it is one of the common character concepts.  I thought a character who benefited the party with the use of consumable items would be interesting to try.  I need to review the Technologist a little more.  Are mercenaries going to be allowed?  I like the idea of making a shrewd, crafty -- and maybe a bit crotchedy or cranky -- character who is searching for Panacea -- the ultimate elixer.  I was thinking that the character would likely have hired a merc or two, since he could probably afford to after selling some of what he produces.  I need to mull it over a bit more.


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## DemonWolfZero (Sep 1, 2004)

So I'll be playing Adinal in some way shape or form.  Most likely in Psion form, rather than Psychic.  For those of you who don't know, Adinal is a Telepath/Thrallherd.  He is exceptionally good at talking and is well known around some parts of Dromus.  I say "some" because necessity keeps him at the seedier levels for the most part.

Adinal is your go-to guy.  You want something, go to him.  You want someone taken care of, go to him.  He's a good friend to have.


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## Conundrum (Sep 1, 2004)

First, for all who are in our group, may I take this time to say...

DANNY!

And on with things.  I'll be playing Vayshor, my Aasimarian (?) Sentinel.  I'm still working out bugs like deities and things (still need to check out Book of Exalted Deeds), but overall Vayshor's the quiet type.  She's devoutly against devils, demons, and any constructs.  She's willing to go along with any rational plan, and because of earlier events, she will be atoning to Adinal for while.  Oh, and don't mind my little companion, he's really mostly harmless.


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## Kelleris (Sep 1, 2004)

I added a few new things to the house rules - listed above under "Dromus Setting House Rules v2.

- exhausting psionics to the psionic classes' individual descriptions
- changes to Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Power Focus, Greater Power Focus, Psychic Focus, and Greater Psychic Focus feats
- added rules for reserve points under "Adventuring"
- added slower magical healing rules under "Magic"

The changes to psionics were made to better reflect the way psionics works in the setting, and the reserve points and magical healing rules (combined with the death and dying and resurrection magic rules already in the file) will hopefully make the tempo of the game somewhat closer to what I prefer.  The idea is that your characters will be able to take quite a beating over time as long as they pace themselves.  I have a tendency to either dole out hideous punishment and be disappointed when everyone wants to stop and rest or to want to slowly drain your resources when said resources are a bottomless pit of abundance.  Hopefully these will help.

The only major change left that I plan to make is the addition of a modified version of the _Call of Cthulhu_ and _Unearthed Arcana_ sanity rules.  I would like to occasionally unhinge your characters if the situation calls for it, but I only plan on dealing sanity damage in unusually traumatic situations and situations dealing with Far Realms creatures.  Unless you really go out looking for trouble, neither of these elements will be particularly prevalent as regards cosmopolitan 8th-level characters.

I am also considering adding craft point rules (allowing for accelerated item creation and mundane equipment manufacturing) and contact rules (allowing for, well, contacts), depending on how significant a role I expect them to play.  With DemonWolfZero's fixer and Zeltrachaon's alchemist, it looks like I'll have some typing to do.


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## Tux the Penguin (Sep 1, 2004)

Hey Matt, let me make sure I understand this right... as psion with 100 power points goes down to 49 he becomes fatigued.  Yet, when he rests for an hour, he gets 16 power points back?

Can this be done multiple times a day?


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## Kelleris (Sep 1, 2004)

Once you hit 50 you would be fatigued, and once you hit 25 you would be exhausted.  An hour of rest would put you at 33 power points and fatigued, and one more hour of rest would put you at 66 power points and remove the fatigue.  An additional 6 hours of rest would put you back up to 100 power points.  It can be done multiple times per day - it's just natural resting, for the most part.


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## Tux the Penguin (Sep 1, 2004)

Okay, after talking at length with Matt, I'm leaning very heavily to playing an Alienist.

I need to see the class to figure out more of the details, but that's what it'll be.


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## Kelleris (Sep 1, 2004)

I refuse to take the blame for that!


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## Kelleris (Sep 3, 2004)

Yes, I know you hate me by now for making you re-download this thing, but here's version 3 of the ever-growing house rules.  I've added:

- Contact rules for, you know, contacts.  Also a new feat, Outgoing, for you really well-connected people.
- Craft points rules for "overnight" creation of items both mundane and magical - including a special feat for when tomorrow morning just isn't fast enough.
- The Technologist has been revamped, including the long-awaited class ability progression; I suggest everyone reread the whole thing if they care about the class at all, as some of the changes are rather easy to overlook.  It has charts now!
- I added a small pile of new feats related to parrying, and changed the parrying rules so that parry rolls are always modified by Dexterity instead of Strength and the effects of various feats on parrying are slightly different.

Any additional changes to these rules will be to the Alienist and Ascetic classes or not something you will need to make your character.  I promise!  This weekend I will try to reorganize the document so it is less cumbersome - using the miracle of Word document hyperlinking - and will post the final version before Monday.  Or maybe on Monday.

In any case, my plan is to have the basics of the campaign setting (that would be information on the seven planes, a cosmology overview, and an idea of setting tone) and then flesh it out a bit over the next week.  This will entail some stat-blocks (cities and planes) and more esoteric knowledge that will be in 



Spoiler



spoiler tags


 and only available to players of characters with a sufficient number of ranks in the Knowledge skill in question.

So far I only have 4 people who have posted to this thread, and 2 more expressing interest who haven't had the time/inclination to register and post (please do, by the way).  That means I'll most likely be recruiting a few people from the general populace to make two groups, since 5 is the upper limit of what I want to try to wrangle.  Besides, I think it'd be nice for us to get acquainted with some of the people whose board's we're using.


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## Kelleris (Sep 3, 2004)

Oh, and one more thing!    

Zeltrachaon and that other one (you know who you are), the Technologist is done as a class, except that, well, there are no devices to choose from.  That's because I pretty much just pulled the Technologist out of my DM's hat, so making devices will be what I politely call a "player-directed activity."

That means I let you make them, and then approve them and add them to my ever-growing list of devices to choose from.  I'll be available for contact here and via e-mail if you need any help, and if you're truly pressed for time I can do this part for you if you can give me a general idea of what you want each device to do.

The rules are pretty simple.  I'm attaching a rough spell effects classification chart - it lists various basic spell effects, and rates them according to the Wizard's, the Cleric's, and the Technologist's ability to manifest that particular effect.  For instance, if an effect has a 2 for Technologists, a 1 for Clerics, and a 3 for Wizards and you have a Wizard spell in mind you want to use as the base of the device's effect, you would increase the "spell level" by 1 to make up for a technologist's slightly-reduced ability in that area.  If it had been a cleric spell, you would have instead reduced the spell level by 1 for this purpose.  Zeroes are a special case: they represent _minus 3_ levels, basically things that that character class just can't do (Wizards and healing spells, for instance).

Once you have a phantom spell level, price it as below, and see what type of device selection will be required:

1st level - 5 (gadget)
2nd level - 10 (gadget)
3rd level - 15 (gadget)

4th level - 15 (technology)
5th level - 30 (technology)
6th level - 45 (technology)

7th level - 45 (artifact)
8th level - 90 (artifact)
9th level - 135 (artifact)

The numbers up there, from 5 to 135, are the costs for activating an instantaneous effect at that level.  If it instead has a duration, divide that number by 5 to find the per-time unit cost.  Technologist devices do not have per-level durations - they have a time unit (1 round, 1 minute, 10 minutes, 1 hour) and must be paid for as a swift action to keep them going.

Upgrades are like metamagic feats from the PHB/SRD - artificer upgrades are +1 levels, technologist upgrades +2 levels, and technomancy upgrades +3 levels.

Whew.  That's the, uh, short version.


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## Mad Hatter (Sep 3, 2004)

Hey, guys.  Sorry about being late in my reply.  I have been very busy.  Anywho, I'll be playing Feiran except she won't have any of the critters.  Actually the living critters will now be mechanoids.  She'll be specializing in mechanical things instead of living.  Not one word, Errol, about Digimon for I will pour out my undying wrath upon you.


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## Tux the Penguin (Sep 3, 2004)

So, let me see...

We have a god-lackey... that'll be interesting when dealing with someone who likes robotics (for lack of a better word).

And then there is me, who is a Alienist who's magic is even more unpredictable than normal.  Oh, and he thinks that all that the other types of magic are simply limited versions of Chaos Magic.  This'll be fun.


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## Chassama (Sep 4, 2004)

Finally...  I'm now registered.  I'll be playing Meridonelathis, a cleric devoted to Kord.  I prefer the use of strength first, then anything else goes.  Not really much more to say.


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## Tux the Penguin (Sep 4, 2004)

Robert, I've got something to tell you man.

*Today, 03:34 AM *

*WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU BOY?*

Now back to your regularly scheduled campaign planning...


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## Kelleris (Sep 7, 2004)

So I promised to have setting info and a finished Alienist up by now.  Sorry.  A couple of guys by the name of Joseph Campbell and Søren Kierkegaard have been working me over pretty bad these last couple of days.

Instead, I have a consolation prize!  I need help deciding on a name for one of the planes connecting to Dromus.

The plane in question is the cultural baseline for Dromus in many ways, and is very similar to the northern parts of Faerun in that respect.  Think a combination of rugged nordic guy traits and sophisticated swashbuckler traits for the "average" native.  The plane would be a pretty hospitable place, except that it's very cold (cold in the make-a-Fort-save-or-take-cold-damage-every-minute sense), forcing visitors to bundle up in heavy clothing to travel though.  Natives are attuned to the plane, via the Planar Touchstone feat, and have cold resistance 5.  That means they can get around in breeches and tunic during most of the year, despite the alarming chill.  The peoples of this yet-to-be-named plane survive through intensive farming in natural and magically-created warm spots and the hardy local plants and animals, many of which are also adapted to local conditions.  An honored local custom also involves hunting big game in the warmer parts of the world; in a few places where the plane is fire-dominant instead of water-dominant, a plethora of dangerous creatures that can't survive the cold take refuge.

Right, those are the basics.  Now, I have a few names I came up with with the help of DemonWolfZero, so just pick one of the following and tell me about it:

Wintercealde
Caeldwyste
Morgencaeld

I'm sure you can tell what naming conventions I'm using here.


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## Tux the Penguin (Sep 7, 2004)

Hey everyone, I've basically locked in into the idea of playing an Alienist, and I've made a few feats that he will have (one is a feat chain, the other special) that fit the way he casts magic.

The first is called "Faux Spells" which is basically a feat that allows Alienists to cast a limited number of normal spells (or powers), although they are cast using the same mechanics as normal chaos spells.  This feat is here since the use of chaos magic is punishable by death.  Therefore, Alienists would learn how to try to get around that fact.

The second is a feat tree based on a more chaotic version of chaos magic (yes, more random).  Instead of tapping into the Far Realms, those who have these feats (the first must be taken at first level) tap into the chaotic energies that form the foundations of the multiverse (as well as the Far Realms).  This allows for more poweful spells, but at a greater risk.  Mechanically, these feats are balanced (each has a bonus and a penalty, as well as loss of a class feature or Wisdom), but I cannot tell if they would be balanced unless I play test them (so lets go for it Matt!).

I've basically got my character's history written and I made these feats to fit better the history that he has and the method he uses to cast chaos spells.

Hope you like them!


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## TrevWar (Sep 7, 2004)

Ok, I'm here, I live...    

And I claim page 2 for...  ...Zzzz...  

I've been busy... ...  ...with nothing really, so that'sd just not much of an excuse, oh well, I'll do better one of these days...  ...maybe.  

Any way, Errol and I have been looking at making a Soul Knife for me to play, we've been tossing some ideas around and I believe there are few things that are set in stone with him.  We're still figuring out a few things. :\


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## DemonWolfZero (Sep 8, 2004)

Speaking of, hey MK.  If I find a decent setup for "Levels in this Prestige Class count as Soulknife levels for purposes of *insert SK ability here*", can Trev and I come up with SK PrCs?  Or how about feats/weapon substitutions?  Trev mentioned something about mind-daggers or shuriken.

Maybe I can find something sane on the forums...


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## Mad Hatter (Sep 8, 2004)

Hey Kell, I was wondering if I could play Juda.  his new world of yours sound cool and interesting.  I realize that I said that I'd be playing Feiran, however, since we haven't played we can still toy with ideas right?  

For those of you who don't know, Juda is the weather cleric I made.  I'm still trying to get a solid build for her.  Either the Stormchild build or the Storm Rider.


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## Kelleris (Sep 8, 2004)

@ DemonWolfZero - I'll look at whatever you've got, but be warned that I'm going to be less willing to go along with new stuff than usual.  I'm introducing a pile of new house rules and the like, and I'd rather not have to pay attention to potentially unbalancing PrCs too.  I've already got the whole XPH to worry about, you know?    

@ Mad Hatter - I assume you mean Wintercealde/Caeldwyste/Morgencaeld?  (Which reminds me, can I get some feedback on the names there?)  I don't have a problem with you playing Juda beyond some minor continuity problems.  I would prefer the Storm Rider version, for the same reasons I cited for DemonWolfZero.


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## Tux the Penguin (Sep 9, 2004)

Kelsey, what about the feats that I created?  As bad as it sounds, my playing an Alienist is dependant on the Winds of Magic feat tree (I like the randomness).

The Faux Spells is mainly for backstory reasons, but also for in game when I need a little magical umph and there's too many people around.


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## Mad Hatter (Sep 9, 2004)

Kell, I like Caeldwyste.


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## Thunderbird459 (Sep 9, 2004)

Never fear, Lord Kelleris; I am here as promised. I'm kicking around a couple ideas, though I think I will wait to craft my perfect generalist wizard until I get my hands on Complete Arcane.

I'm tempted build a wizard entirely around crafting items and asking Zeltrachaon to go in with me on a joint business venture called Crazy Z's Magic Shop and Tavern. The name is negotiable, of course.

I'm also considering a mystic theurge or a straight up cleric since we don't have a healing bag. I'll need to get my hands on a Complete Divine to do it effectively, though.

Edit: I said Complete Divine, I meant Defenders of the Faith


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## DemonWolfZero (Sep 9, 2004)

Hey Matt, whenever you check these forums, please check out this link.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=296800

I'm not sure since I haven't checked with Trev yet, but I think he might like something along those lines...only without the "Evil" restriction, of course.


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## Tux the Penguin (Sep 9, 2004)

Eroll, in my opinion its pretty good, although I think the mind blade advancement is a little quick.  But talk to Kelsey.


Richard: if you're looking for a crafting PrC, there is a dwarven one, although I don't think its wizardly (check Races of Stone).

Also, you mentioned the MT... in the XPH there is a wizard/psion MT-like class.  Take a look.  It would fit very well with your crafter, because then you could make both magic and psionic items.  Matt might actually let you use Wondrous Items to make Universal items, since they are the same, technically.


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## Kelleris (Sep 9, 2004)

@ Tux - I don't think I'm going to allow those feats you made, Matt.  I want to try the class out with just the modifications I made, without worrying about balancing some pretty hard-to-balance random roll charts on top of all the other things to worry about.  I'm also pretty lukewarm on the Alienist as a PC class anyway, so I'm not as willing to deal with the extra hassle as I otherwise would be.  Also, please use screen names when posting.  It's just proper netiquette.    

@ T-Bird - That sounds good, actually.  I'm vetoing the Cerebremancer, though (the PrC that Tux mentioned).  It's clearly better than the Mystic Theurge (Psionic spells are better than Clerical spells) and I'm not terribly keen on the balance of psionics as a whole.  See this post and this thread for some idea as to why.  Or just ask Errol.

In any case, for a crafter type, you're better off with Mystic Theurge.  The list of psionic items is pretty piddly, and a good number of them are repeats of one magical item or another.  The cleric mixed with wizard via Mystic Theurge actually gives you entirely new categories of spells and item access (healing, divining the future, planar allies, and so forth), while a Psion's schtick is largely redundant with the wizard's.

Actually, I'd probably be willing to make a class that combines any two of the seven traditions, but they wouldn't all get full advancement in both.  For item creation, you'd be best off with either Divine/Arcana or Tech/Arcana.  Obviously, if you're worried about the cleric role, the Divine/Arcana version is best.  Technologists get more healing ability than wizards, but not by much.

@ DemonWolfZero (and presumably TrevWar) - So you're saying that you want to play a soulknife that's as little like the XPH one and as much like the old one as possible?  Don't know if I like the Psychic Assassin, but I will let Trev swap out class skills on a 1-for-1 basis if he really wants a rogue-y Soulknife.

EDIT: As for the knives/shuriken thing, the class already has the mechanics for that.  It doesn't matter to me how they're described.  Is there any special ability of the shuriken or dagger that he wants?

EDIT: Well, I'm finally through the nastiness of this last week (taught a seminar, edited a pile of papers, a quiz and a test in German, came down with a cold), so look for the basic setting information later on tonight.  _If you have any opinion at all about the names I mentioned earlier, post soon or Mad Hatter's gonna get to pick it._


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## Tux the Penguin (Sep 9, 2004)

Okay Kelleris (note that DWZ mentioned you by MK, btw)... I'm not going to play an Alienist, especially if you're lukewarm to it.  Same here, mostly.

Would you let me play a rogue/(shade or shadow creature)?  The template progressions for them are in Dragon #322.  I'm leaning more to the Shade than the Shadow, although the Shadow creature would give me more levels.  But the shade sounds so much cooler.

Any thoughts?


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## Thunderbird459 (Sep 10, 2004)

Hmm...a dwarven MT...I like it. Does anyone have a pdf of Races of Stone? Or Defenders of the Faith, for that matter?

I might actually get to use the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook to make my storefront/home. Bwahahaha! Hey Kell, could you find a nice little city that is comparatively low on the insanity scale that I could set up shop in?


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## Kelleris (Sep 10, 2004)

@ Tux - The shade looks mostly okay, except for two things: I don't want anyone to have fast healing and the shade abilities bonus is too massive for my tastes.  Come up with a suitable ability other than fast healing and drop the iteration of shade abilities at either 2nd or 3rd level and it looks okay.  Shadow blend might be a suitable replacement.  Oh, and have the stat boosts be permanent even in bright light.  Recalculating stats is annoying.

The shadow template looks good except that I will remove fast healing from the 2nd-level ability list.  They aren't terribly well balanced with each other, either, but whatever.

@ Thunderbird - Would you be okay with a quiet corner of Dromus?  That's at least where you'll be at the start, and it's the trading mecca for this setting.  You could go with a shop hidden away anywhere in the city, really, or a licensed place in the Market Sorceire (or Khorvaire's Square if you have a high tolerance for haggling and chaotic marketplaces).


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## Kelleris (Sep 10, 2004)

*whew*

Writing this crazy "flavor text" is harder than I thought.      I have part of Dromus done: you'll find it below.

EDIT: Removed document to move to a central location.


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## Mad Hatter (Sep 10, 2004)

Hey ThunderBird and DemonWolfZero, can I join this store front operation?  I realize that I'll be playing a technologist, but it might prove interesting.  So what do ya say?  I decided on not playing Juda, Kell.


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## Tux the Penguin (Sep 10, 2004)

Kell, I've been thinking about a few of your house rules, and I've got some things to say.

First, and probably the one that I'm sure others have noticed, is the Exhausting Psionics.

The first thing that jumps into my head when I start really thinking about this is the following:  manifesting powers is more exhausting than dodging and taking hits (which represents HP loss)?

If manifesting powers will result in fatigue, then loss of HP should also... it only follows that way.

Second, I noticed that the exhausting effect has no effect if you have a Con of 200 or Endurance.  If you reach 1/2, you become fatigued.  So a human psion with an 8 Con gets fatigued at the same rate as a gnomish psion with a 20 con, both of whom are the same level?  That really doesn't make sense, since Con represents your endurance, partially.

Lastly, if psions get tired when manifesting powers, shouldn't wizards run the risk of forgetting a spell they memorized, or a sorcerer accidentally casting the spell wrong?  You are tinkering with the base ability of the class.  Now, if all the spellcasting classes used spell points (instead of number of level per day) and that exhausting ability was applied to everyone, that would be fine.  But as it stands, the wizard is clearly more powerful than the psion, especially with the ability to spend money to make a really kick butt spell.

But, I learned not to complain unless you offer solutions.

The first, and most obvious, would to make everyone use spell points and apply the Exhausting thingy to every spell casting class.  But this would only make the world a little less magic-friendly, since your classes who are normally more feeble would be even more so if they got into a sticky situation.  However, it would also allow for the spellcaster to cast more than normal in a day (by resting).

Second, change the fatigued/exhausted thing to a possible thing if they don't pass a Fort Save.  That way you at least let the tougher psions have a chance at delaying it.  Maybe do something like DC 15+max level of power they can manifest.  It being a Fort save means most psions won't have that high of one so the chance of failure is higher.  Then make the Exhausting save be 20+.   If they pass it, for every 5% more they drop, they have to do it agian.

Then agian, the first is probably the best solution, other than going through and actually removing some of the powers and/or abilities you don't like.


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## Kelleris (Sep 10, 2004)

*sigh*

You know, I could be working on something rather than explaining myself, but here goes; I have said repeatedly in the past that I'm always willing to explain why I do or change something.

First off, the Psionc gets exhausting magic when nobody else does because _he casts his spells in a different way_.  From my own house rules:



> Psionics, while powerful, require a great deal of effort on the part of the Psion to use, as they represent a direct generation of the planar discontinuities necessary for magic use through pure force of will.




That is to say, they make their own magic rather than using what's already there.  It's a heck of a lot more exhausting than what any of the other classes do.  I used the rules I did because they were what is presented in _Unearthed Arcana_ and I don't like reinventing the wheel if I don't have to.  I briefly considering working up some rules involving temporary negative levels (sprained life-force), but that would really screw over psionic characters and it would be an unholy pain to balance.  As it is, psions have lost the ability to blow through their whole power point reserve in a half-hour without penalty, which I like, and gained the ability to cast all day if they pace themselves, which makes them somewhat more unique and interesting than overpowered sorcerers with spell points.

I also briefly considered having Con determine bonus power points, but decided against it.  This was partly because of mechanical reasons - the old psionics had way too much MAD and nobody wants to see that again - and partly because of flavor reasons - the fatigue in this case is mostly mental, which is why only rest heals it and your mental power (Wis or possibly Int, I went with Int for simplicity's sake) determines how long you can muck with reality without fatiguing yourself.

I also talked it over with DemonWolfZero, the only player of a psionic character at the time, and made some changes based on his recommendations.  Even when offered the chance to play an Ascetic (from the _Psychic's Handbook_), he elected to play Adinal as a psion.  I think, and he presumably agrees, that the change in question is pretty much a wash in terms of power level.  If it weakens psions, it isn't like they can't afford it anyway.  If I was making a change to the Cleric or Druid I would also err on the side of underpowered for the same reasons.

I'm not altering hp to cause fatigue because that would cause nightmarish balance issues and I have no official sources even advising how to handle it.  It would be way too much work to apply a false standard of realism to hit points, which are already one of the most abstract numbers on a character sheet.

And I will change powers and spells I don't like if someone takes them.  The energy powers and _mind thrust_ are pretty much the whole list at the moment.  Well, that and that psionic power that lets you totally reselect all of your feats, skills, and powers.  But it's way down on my list of things to do since nobody's tried to make an artillery psion yet, and if Adinal has _mind thrust_ he's never used it.


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## Tux the Penguin (Sep 10, 2004)

Figured it was something liket that.  Still don't like the idea, but its not going to be effecting me, so doesn't really matter.

Matt, I'm going to be playing a fighter/mage/runesmith... dwarf of course.  Gotta love the dwarf wizard.


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## Thunderbird459 (Sep 10, 2004)

Hatter - I didn't think DWZ was a potential business partner, but I'll certainly consider anyone who wants to join me. Just afford me enough time to get my part of the deal ironed out before I start adding people. What would you be marketing?

Kell - That works for me. Assuming this town is an open town and not a walled fortress like Waterdeep, I'll set up in the outskirts. I intend the place to be my home as well as my storefront.


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## Chassama (Sep 10, 2004)

Actually, You guys don't need to worry about the healing part.  My cleric is a spontaneous divine caster.  And any cleric that prefers the use of strength first quickly finds out that he needs have quite a bit of healing power.  Thus I have all the cure spells I can have at the moment.  It could be better to have another healer, but not needed.


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## Tux the Penguin (Sep 10, 2004)

Actually guys, I believe Kell is going to split us into two groups of four, so don't go making your plans too much into stone (ironic, because my character does use stone... lol).

Edit:  Page 3 claimed!


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## Chassama (Sep 10, 2004)

One more thing (thus far)...  Kelleris, I'm thinking of changing my character's race to Half-Orc.  That okay?


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## TrevWar (Sep 11, 2004)

the DM said:
			
		

> and I'd rather not have to pay attention to potentially unbalancing PrCs
> without worrying about balancing some pretty hard-to-balance random roll charts on top of all the other things to worry about
> aren't terribly well balanced with each other
> that would really screw over psionic characters and it would be an unholy pain to balance
> ...



I'm going to remain silent here...  


I still find the Psionic Fatigue item to be... off.  Now since I'm not playing any thing with Psi or casting I would hope that my post would be seen as less bias.


			
				the DM said:
			
		

> I used the rules I did because they were what is presented in Unearthed Arcana and I don't like reinventing the wheel if I don't have to.



I can see your interests to "balance" things, and you used the Unearthed Arcana to do it, but I'm still confussed.  Why didn't you use the rule on all casters?  If there are the far realms, and other events and planar settings that effect the world and magic, why not apply this to caster as well?  I'm just missing the reasoning here, it looks to me more like your picking on psionics as a whole and trying to allow it but deter people from playing it.  If some one were to play one now, the odds run high of the party being hindered more then helpful by just one of these characters in the party.  




			
				the DM said:
			
		

> As it is, psions have lost the ability to blow through their whole power point reserve in a half-hour without penalty.



I wasn't aware they had a penalty before, other then running out of Psi, which is about as bad as it gets.  What penalty are you refering to?




the DM said:


> If it weakens psions, it isn't like they can't afford it anyway.



So you still don't think that the new 3.5 Psionics is balanced?  I can see how every book that comes out does have a errata follow it shortly.  Now I haven't looked at the Energy Powers yet so I'm not sure how there over powered, but usually when more then one person says there overpowered, then they tend to be.  And I haven't looked at the ability to augment save DCs either, so I can't speak there.  But those being the main thing here, I would see you redoing the powers, or just having us select from the sorc list.  But to just blanket the entire class with fatigue or worse seems to say "I'll allow psionics, but only if they take a huge penalty because I don't like them and my setting allows me to make them."

The Technologist looks like a cool class, I've usually liked its flavor, but its information is sketchy and it seems to be a full caster class with 8 for skills, d6 HD, 1/2 attack progression, Will as its good save, and it has the ability to ignore the planar discontinuities necessary for magic use in dromus.  That seems rather "unbalanced" to me.  I could see you basing it off the rogue, and taking away the "rogue" abilities and replacing them with casting and downing the BAB, but the fact that there devices work every were with out being effected by out side interference would be a balancing issue to me.

The ideas I’ve had on m character are still somewhat limited.  The basics are he’s an Elven Soul Knife with a high dex, I’m thinking of makeing him young (42 years), and I’m still running though some ideas about his history.
Be sent here for some odd reason, but he’s to young.
Think that he was sent here, but over heard some one else’s assignment and is here out of confussion but thinks he’s on some type of quest.
Or for what ever reason have his parents leave him with some one to look atfer him until they return.
Any one have any ideas, or would any one like to adopt a young sneaky elven soul knife???

I like the look of the Psychic Assassin, and I like the idea of swaping out skills to better tweek the character, but I’ll take what ever skill list is allowed.  The only reason I would see for making a sneaky Soul Knife is if Rich and them adopt me for there shop and use me to run errands and gather intel for them, which I’m not opposed to at all.  If I went with that, then I would make my character more of a info gatherer, talker, sneaking kind of guy.  On that note, what are the odds that we could add Merciful to the Soul Knifes enchancments?  And if so, would that allow me to use Psychic Strike, and/or the other assissin abilities to deal subdual as well?  I’d like to tweek the PrC a bit, nothing big, but DemonWolf pointed out the having to be evil thing, and I’d prefer not to have killed some one just to kill them as I’m not joining any assassin guild, I’d prefer my character know what he does through experimentation, observing others, and natural cunning.


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## DemonWolfZero (Sep 11, 2004)

TrevWar...Psionics *is* overpowered now.  Or if not ALL of it, some very specific iterations are much more powerful than they should be.  Mind Thrust?  D10s of damage up to TWENTY?!  Twenty three if you're willing to Overchannel and take 5d8 pts of damage...Hell, burn another feat and you don't have to take that either.

Then you get to the Energy powers.  Kineticists get Fireball, Scorching Ray, Lightning Bolt, Cone of Cold, Lesser Energy Spheres and THEN they get the Energy Push and Stun powers.  Additionally they get to choose energy types, which Arcane and Divine casters have to take a feat for.  Additionally they get boosts based on which energy type they choose!

Just looking at those, Psionics is overpowered.  Then you get to looking at things like the Cerebremancer and the Illithid Slayer and it's seriously FUBARd.

I don't find Exhausting Psionics to be an issue except when it comes to Psychic Warriors.  When you look at the fact that now you get to recover a third of your Psi with an hour of rest?  Or the two hours for two-thirds?  I think that balances out the Exhausting Psionics VERY well.  Also, I helped figure out the basics of magic in this system, or atleast I remember discussing it with Kelleris.  Arcane casters use Planar static to cause magical effects.  Divine casters ask their Gods for effects and the Gods cause the necessary static.  Ki users generate effects similar to magical ones through their own bodies.  But Psions use their minds to generate static on a planar level.  I believe that would be incredibly taxing, don't you?  I prefer the Fort save idea, but I'm just fine with Exhausting Psionics as is.

Well I'm done for now.  I'ma watch a movie.  Later.


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## Tux the Penguin (Sep 11, 2004)

DWZ:  Psionics as a whole are not overpowered.  The problem is really not with the powers themselves, but rather the augmentations.  Mind Thrust and the Energy spells are bad because of the cheap augmentations.  If you even bumped it up to 2 pp for each extra dice, then suddenly its not so bad (10d10 mind thurst is only 55 damage, for a 20th level caster).

The other problem is augmentation for save DCs, which is sick.  I believe there are actually powers that say "and for every 2 pp spent in "x" way, the DC increases by one".  Those are the problems.

But outside of those few, choice, powers, psionics, as a casting system, is much more balanced than it was before.  If they would erase all the augmentations and only do them as mentioned for spell points in Unearthed Arcana, it would fix a lot of problems.

Chassama:  I think Kell already said half-orcs were cleared for play.


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## DemonWolfZero (Sep 11, 2004)

Most of the powers are "For every extra pp spent, you deal an extra d6 of damage.  For every 2 dice of damage, the save DC goes up by 1."

The best comparison, I feel is in Cone of Cold.

10th level Wizard with 20 Int casts Cone of Cold, no metamagic.  He deals 10d6 cold damage and his Reflex save DC is 10 + 5(spell level) + 5(Int mod) = 20.  A respectable DC.

10th level Psion with 20 Int casts Energy Cone (Cold), no metapsionics.  He deals 10d6+10 cold damage and his FORTITUDE save DC is 10 + 3(power level) + 3(augmentation) + 5(Int mod) = 21.  A slightly more than respectable DC, but if said Psion had chosen to do Electricity damage instead, the damage would have gone back down to 10d6, but the save would go up to a 23.  Oh, and it would be Reflex again.

DC scaling by pp spent isn't the worst issue.  Some of the powers are much bigger issues.  Such as Energy Missile.  Effectively Magic missile with an energy type.  Its save DC goes up per pp spent.  That means that a 20th level Kineticist with Energy Missile can make you dance with his missiles that do 20d6 to each of 5 separate targets that will either do +20 points of additional damage, ignore hardness or have a DC 2 higher than base, which btw is 10 + 2(power level) + 17(augmentation) + 11(conservative Int mod) = 40.  Then there's the additional stuff you can do with that.  Say you're Overchanneling that MoFo.  Add 3 Manifester levels.  Burn two of those on Empower Power and the other on an extra die of damage.  You just dealt 25d6 to 5 separate targets with a save DC of 41, Fort or Ref, depending.  Oh, and you still have 400 power points left.

There's a problem here somewhere.


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## Tux the Penguin (Sep 11, 2004)

DWZ, that's exactly what I said. The problem of the augmentations isn't so much the ability to make it scale, but rather when you get two effects for a single augmentation.

If you made it read "for each 1 pp spent the damage increases by 1d6, or for each 2 pp spent, the DC increases by one" then you wouldn't have the bad problems. Your energy stuff would realistically be capped at 20 + score modifier (since each two would basically be heightening the spell a level). It would also make the psion choose between nuking and making sure it stuck.

In Unearthed Arcana, when a wizard is using spell points, the DCs don't scale as he puts more into it to get more damage (and it also has a cap). Those two things should have been added.

But other than Mind Thurst and Energy spells, what else is broken? Those two things get thrown around by people who think they are broken, but never go anywhere else. I agree with you that they need fixing, but those two are easy to fix.

1) When you pick "Energy X", you pick a single energy type. You don't get to switch between them as you wish. You pick "Cold Missile" and you only get cold. If you want fire, you have to pick it agian. That makes it the equivalent of the wizard type spells.

2) Damage dice cannot exceed your manifester level. Wizards and Sorcerers have the problem, so psionics should also. Overchannel can increase this, but then agian, you're taking damage. Also, make Overchannel expend your Psionic Focus. Now you can't overchannel and metapsionic something.

3) Save DCs cannot be increased by augmentation, period. Add in a Heighten Power metapsionic feat that works the same as everyone else.  If you don't increase the save DCs, your mindthurst gets locked in around DC 21 or so (assuming you started with a 18, +5 for levels, +6 item, +1 from somewhere).  Now making a DC 21 to avoid ALL the 20d10 damage isn't that bad.  Hell, a fighter with a Cloak of Resistance +6 have a +12 BASE.  That means 9 or better.  Start adding things (Iron Will, etc) and its getting lower.  Then agian, I also think Mind Thrust should be capped at some point, but I'm not getting into that now, first the energy stuff adjustments...

Edit: Actually listing ways to fix some powers. All these assume that the augmentations have be changed as mention above.

Energy Ball: Nothing really, just a big fireball. WIthout the saves increasing, its not really overpowered.

Energy Bolt: same as Energy Ball. Its Lightning Bolt, but psionic.

Energy Burst: A zero-range Energy Ball. No changes needed.

Energy Cone: No changes, Cone of Cold.

Energy Current: This is one that bugs me. First, 9d6 to one and half to another is really nasty. For a 5th level power this is pretty over the top. I say start it at 6d6 for primary, 3d6 for secondary, and its more in tune with what it should be. Then the inceasing in dice would make it more in line (at 20th it would be 16d6 primary, 8d6 secondary). Well, limit it to that, since 17d6 would be the highest it could go.

Energy Missile: Wow, where to start. First, make it start a 1d6 to five targets, since 3d6 to 5 is nowhere close to what a Wizard/Sorcerer can do. Second, make the damage max out at 7d6 (6d6 is the average of 5d4+5, but this is second level, so eh, give a little bigger cap). Then its not so sick.

Energy Push: This one is actually okay, since each additional die is costing 2 pp. But no save increases.

Energy Retort: This is too long of a power (duration), but its not that bad.

Energy Stun: This isnt that bad, except the double save. Make additional dice cost 2 instead of one. Increasing the save is insane on this one.

Energy Wall: Eh, in line with nother changes.

Energy Wave: Same as Energy Wall.
------
But another change is the energy bonuses

Cold: Fort only. No damage bonus.
Electricity: +2 to penetrate power resistance. No save bonus.
Fire: Okay, why not give +1 to damage. A lot of things have fire resistance.
Sonic: ACTUALLY BALANCED!

Those are my suggestions, and how I'm going to implement them in my games. Mind Thurst is another issue, but I've got crap to do, so I'll mention how I changed it later.


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## DemonWolfZero (Sep 11, 2004)

When I next run someone using Psionics, I'm gonna allow built in DC scaling, but nerf individual powers.  Oh, and let me get the book real quick and show you a few more things I find overpowered.

Elan Resistance ability, if abused is over-the-top.  One way to do it is to be an Elan Psion/Illithid slayer.  That way you become a Psion that lost one manifester level, gains full BAB for 10 levels and has a permanent Mind-blank on them, who can also ignore 622 points of damage a day base.

The ridiculously high pp total that a Psion gets, that translates into SEVENTEEN effectively 10th level spell slots if you burn them all on your 6 9th level powers known.

The combination of Overchannel and Talented.  While costing you two feats, it allows you to expend focus to negate the 5d8 you would take from adding 3 manifester levels to a power.  This is limited to only 3rd level powers or below, but this is made extremely ignore-worthy given the fact that Mind thrust is 1st level, but can effectively be 12th level by your 20th Psion level.

Various uses of Expanded Knowledge which can be negated by an intelligent DM that take advantage of the fact that there are worthwhile powers on the PsiWar list, that while high-level for a PsiWar, are piddly-leveled for a Psion.  Force those using Expanded Knowledge to take it from the list in which it appears at highest level.

Animal Affinity as a buff power, balanced out by the fact that the Psychic Warrior and then the Egoist (in that order) are supposed to be Kings of Auto-Buffs, but unbalanced by the fact that a Psion or Wilder can get access to them and become a Wizard with all 6 stat-boosters in one slot.

Assimilate - 9th level power that does 20d6 to a touched living target.  If you don't die, you give the manifester temporary hp equal to half damage done for an hour.  If you DO die, you give the manifester temp hp equal to total damage dealt AND a +4 bonus to each ability score for an hour.  There's a couple other things, but the stat boost is the big one.  There's nothing about this power that doesn't let you do the classic, "My character has a Psicrystal, a staff, and a bag full of rats!" trick.

Astral Construct - customizable "summoned" monsters that can't be Dismissed, which is the only anti-"summoned creature" spell that Arcane and Divine casters have?  Yeah.  Look into the Constructor PrC while you're at it 

I'd mention the Psionic versions of Charm and Dominate, but Psions are supposed to be Gods of Mind-control anyways, so I find it fine that they have Charm Person and Charm Monster in the same power.  Oh, and the ability to keep someone charmed for days at a time...  Dominate is the same way, only I think there's also an "affect a second target" augmentation, so it effectively also has "Mass" rolled into it.

I'd go on, but I have that much to point out from A-C.  I haven't even gotten to my new favorite example of broken Psionics, the Illithid Slayer, though I did mention it.

Cheers all.


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## Tux the Penguin (Sep 11, 2004)

Elan are trumpeted around as this broken class, but rather it is simply a class that will allow you to stop damage once a round... from one source.  I know, because Trevor and I went around on this last time I saw him.  Yes, you could prevent 622 points, but its on the _next successful attack_.  So you simply hit the Elan with multiple attacks in a round.  They can only do it once in a round.

The PP isn't that bad when you look at the wizard gets.  If you were to break them down into individual levels, the wizard actually gets more spells per day.  Now, the psion wins since he can bash them all into high level powers, but I'll get to that later.

Overchannel, as I said before, should require you to expend your psionic focus.  The mixture of it with Talented was a bad combination, but one that's easy to change.  Instead of "third level or lower" change it to "when you use less than five power points."  On top of that, I don't really like the feat, especially since most psionic attacks are low level.

Okay, since you brought up Mind Thurst, I'll mention my changes to it.  First, the DC doesn't increase beyond 11+Int.  Its permanently a 1st level power.  Sorry, but psionics are going to abide by the same rules that wizards and the others abide by.  Your 1st level powers become less effecient at higher levels.  Second, Mind Thurst, as well as other powers, get capped depending on their level.  1st: 5 dice.  2nd: 7 dice.  3rd: 9 dice.  Etc, etc.  Still, Mind Thurst is nice (5d10 is nothing to sneeze at) but its not that good either.  Especially being a Will Negates power.  That effectively puts Mind Thurst into a good 1st level power without being too bad.

Expanded Knowledge is a BAD feat.  I limited it to "any power you could normally learn."  No psion learning pychic warrior feats, or a Kinetist learning Telepath Discipline powers.  That feat is a glaring example of the fact that they didn't play test.

Animal Affinity has always been a problem, but to give yourself a +4 to all abilities, you're spending 23 PP, only possible if you overchannel at 20th level.  Plus, you're blowing nearly 5% of your total power points, especially for a power that only lasts for 20 minutes (23 if overpowered).  That's not that long.

Even Assimiliate isn't that bad.  It only lasts for one hour.  Its also a 9th level power.  Remember, at this point the Wizard has Meteor Swarm.  20d6 to one target (which gets a save for half damage) is still less than the 24d6 that Meteor Swarm can do.  Actually, you could have all four spheres at a single creature, forcing them to take 8d6 physical damage, and then has no chance to avoid the 24d6 of damage.

Astral Constructs have always been better, which annoys me, but I can deal with that easily.  They are good, but they aren't the end-all be-all power.  At each level a similiarly powerful nuke spell can destroy them in a round.  Especially a wizard who is ticked (or another psion).

Charm isn't as nasty of a spell if you don't increase the save DC.  So you can charm dragons for days at a time?  Its still a save DC of 11+Int/Cha.

The biggest key to balancing psinoics is to remove the DC scaling, or at least slow it down by *a lot*.


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## Thunderbird459 (Sep 12, 2004)

Noooooooo! Not another thread-hijacking debate over psionics! Make it stop!

Since I don't feel like reading it all; was there anything relevant to the campaign in the last 6 posts?


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## Tux the Penguin (Sep 12, 2004)

nope


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## Mad Hatter (Sep 12, 2004)

Interesting psionics debate.  However, since the only person playing a psionic character doesn't give a flying polyp, it really doesn't matter.  But thatnks, Kell, for clarifying your position and everyone else who took part of the never-ending debate on the topic of "Is Psionics Blanced and How Can we Beat" debate.

Bird o' Thunder aka T-Bird, I'll be peddling technology stuff.  However, since Kell, is splitting us, we should prolly wait.

After much discussion and haggling with Kell, I have narrowed my character down even further.  Feiran will have cybernetic animals, trying for construtct, and generally haveing mechanoids.  I don't know if I'll be able to do all of that, but I am trying.


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## Kelleris (Sep 12, 2004)

Yeesh, I go away for one weekend and you guys go nuts on me.  If you feel the need to continue this discussion, you all have each others' e-mail addresses.  Knock it off here, though, eh?      Or better, yet, go join Thanee and Psion over in the thread I linked to.   

@ Mad Hatter - Your sig is voluminously large.  Make sure you shorten it when we play, or leave it off your PbP posts, k?

@ TrevWar - I think I covered everything you asked about, except the Technologist.  Balance-wise, think of the technologist as the opposite of the Wilder - they get lots of powerful toys, but they can't access their best ones very often.  The class can use its low-level devices with abandon, but the high-level devices are meant to be seldom-used.  I think DemonWolf mentioned something about 17 maxed-out powers at 20th level for Psions.  A Technologist's best devices cost 135 stabilization points to use.  They only get 800 base at 20th level.  6 shots from the ol' _null-space cannon _and they're 10 points into their fairly meager bonus points, which they have to suffer a bit of MAD for to begin with.  The Psion still has 11 20d10 _mind thrusts_ with which to core out his enemies' brains.

The Technologist actually has cleric BAB, by the way - a pretty good number of technologist devices will require attack rolls.  And I wasn't clear enough on the magic-disrupting thing.  The whole reason a technologist's devices are limited use is because they have to antimagic them every time they want to use them.  It's not a good thing - it's the reason all of a technologist's devices aren't at-will.  The only upshot is that they get a few antimagic abilities out of the deal.


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## Tux the Penguin (Sep 14, 2004)

Kell: would I be able to "buy" an upgraded spell before the game starts, provided I paid for the effect by that formula you found?

By the way, depending on how you split us, I'll be playing either a dwarf fighter/mage or a dwarf fighter.

Guess what race I like...


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## Kelleris (Sep 14, 2004)

Uhm, right.  Yeah, you can go ahead and do that, but don't spend more than 20-25% of your gold on it.

@ Chassama - Sorry, I missed your request in all the hubbub.  Sure, you can make him a half-orc


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## Chassama (Sep 14, 2004)

Cool Thanks.  I'll go ahead and make the change.  If you want to see the new workup on him, just let me know.  I have it in TXT format.


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## Tux the Penguin (Sep 15, 2004)

Speaking of workups, when is the character sheet board going to be started?

Or better yet, when can we start submitting the character sheets for you to look at?


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## Kelleris (Sep 17, 2004)

Okay, I know I've made myself scarce the last few days.  All for a good cause, I assure you.  I've got capsule descriptions of all seven planes you can elect to hail from here, for your perusal.  Now that you've got this, I'll be looking over people's characters whenever they feel ready to post them.  I'll keep adding to this over time, but I figure that just diving right in once we have the basics down is the more entertaining thing to do.

Anyway, without further ado:



> *City of Dromus**
> Dromus is a planar crossroads rivaled by nothing else in this part of the multiverse; only the stories of far-ranging planeswalkers even hint at anything like it.  Poised at the intersection of seven planes, Dromus does a brisk business with each while trying to establish its independence from its nominal founders.  Said nominal founders will have none of this, and are forever scheming to take control of what is probably the most important mercantile and strategic center of all the seven planes.
> 
> This “city” is only a city in name.  It sprawls over miles of countryside around the former technologist enclave of Dromus, resembling nothing so much as an entire country trying to squeeze itself into as small a place as possible.  Most people who live on the edge of the city have never seen the other side, and many have never even been to the great markets of Khorvaire’s Square.  It’s just too long a trip.
> ...






> *The Imperium Mechanus**
> The Imperium Mechanus is a mighty steam-driven empire forged out of many smaller kingdoms, republics, and principalities.  This makes for complicated government, though, since each of the formerly independent nations brought their own cluster of laws and regulations to the table that they simply could not live without.  Newcomers to the Imperium find that they’re usually breaking a half-dozen minor laws at any given time, and acquire either a total disrespect for law and order or a justifiable paranoia for same.
> 
> The Imperium is located on a magic-poor plane, insulated by the elemental planes from the edge of the multiverse and the Astral Plane.  When the plane began to move into its current alignment over a thousand years ago, the inhabitants were forced to develop a new kind of magic reliant on the incipient planar stability they were experiencing.  Over time, this new force became the sole power source for great and wondrous works, demanding the sort of bureaucratic infrastructure that can provide the enormous natural resources required.
> ...






> *Kelluna**
> Wise travelers know that there’s always a bigger fish, no matter how capable you are.  Kelluna is a sea of bigger fish.  On first arriving on the plane, any newcomer is immediately struck by the sheer exaggerations of the place: the mountains are more mountainous, the swamps swampier, and the plains astoundingly featureless on Kelluna.  Scattered through the plane in places where magic is strong are the Kellunan city-states, the seats of the Proxies, powerful sorcerous creatures (usually outsiders or dragons) who use the power of soul collectors to rule with the might of their patron deities.
> 
> The Outer Planes, home to gods great and small, are so distant as to be almost forgotten, but Kelluna is the next best thing.  Any deceased soul leaving, or newly-created outsider arriving, must pass through Kelluna to reach the Droman planes, and the soul collectors, powerful artifacts built on key clusters of ley lines, direct the traffic.  The Proxies who control these devices are granted the ability to shape their lands almost as a god might, and titanic forces are daily put into play in the struggle for the power of belief, both of the living and the dead, both for their far-away masters and for their own reasons.  Virtually all religious sects in Dromus can be traced to one or another of the Proxies, and no two agree, even if they ultimately worship the same deity.
> ...






> *Caeldwyste**
> Caeldwyste is a thriving kingdom, a stable and prosperous land coincidentally located entirely within an arctic wasteland.  Proximity to the Elemental Plane of Water ensures constant snowfall and freezing temperatures over most of the plane, but the Caelder are adapted to the extreme conditions and have developed a culture that now forms the baseline for the City of Dromus.  A racially-diverse population is spread through the towns and cities of the countryside, and the people live more-or-less in peace, only occasionally threatened in any serious way by the beasts and monsters of the wilderness.
> 
> Caelder culture is a mix of the barbaric and the civilized.  Since normal crops cannot grow in the biting cold the Caelders combine many of the traditions of a hunter-gatherer society with the sophistication that bustling urban areas and a thriving culture bring.  A revered tradition among the Caelder is the Odensjakt, the great hunt of remorhaz and frost worm that can provide food for a large town from the carcasses of just a few beasts.  On the other hand, Caeldwyste produces some of the best merchants and artisans of the seven planes, and has a codified and well-respected code of laws.  Most of the time, traditional Caelders and those who prefer a more urbane lifestyle coexist peacefully, but as Dromus has grown in importance, reactionary factions have sprung up demanding a return to the old ways.  Sensible people on both sides of the issue have no desire for conflict, but that is no guarantee of peace in the future.
> ...






> *The Tangle**
> Part transitive plane, part maze of portals, and part unexplored jungle, the Tangle is an enigma to all who visit.  The Tangle is place of fragments, bits of Prime matter jumbled together in ways that make no sense to the untrained observer.  Taking the left-hand path around a bush may merely lead deeper into the grove while the right-hand path leads to a part of the omnipresent jungle hundreds of miles away.
> 
> Tangler villages are confusing places for non-natives, laid out around easy-to-follow planar minglings.  Natives see nothing unusual about the village square leading to huts leagues apart, but visitors must remember to touch the red-striped rock when leaving the clearing or there’s no telling where they might end up.  The Tangle can be used to reach many of the other planes, but only the most foolish traveler would neglect to hire one of the often-fickle natives before undertaking the journey.
> ...






> *Tila'kun**
> Tila’kun is a paradise: sunny beaches, clear blue skies, and endless waves lapping at the shores of a thousand islands.  So infused is the plane with positive energy that mortal creatures are hard-pressed not to relax and enjoy the abundance of life here.  Unfortunately, it is possible to get too much of a good thing – this excess of life-energy causes cancerous growth and eventually fatal mutations in those who are exposed to it for too long without some measure pf protection.
> 
> The people of Tila’kun consist of two groups that have essentially no direct interactions – the monasteries and the island tribes.  The monasteries possess the power of ki, mighty fortress-abbeys made of rare and precious stone, and a disciplined, self-sufficient lifestyle.  They monopolize the magical, herbal, and alchemical resources of the plane, and leave the rest to the island tribes, who get along as best they can in the shadow of the unassailable monasteries.  Their only contributions to the scheme, as far as the monks and ascetics are concerned, are any children who show sufficient promise to be adopted by a monastery.
> ...






> *Yesheveran**
> Yesheveran is a study in contrasts.  Most of the plane is underground, but light exists even in the deepest reaches, allowing for fecund plant growth even deep in the Underdark.  Life is abundant throughout, but the plane is vulnerable to plagues that can obliterate the ecosystems of whole caverns in a matter of days.  The elder race of Yesheveran, the dark elves, are ancient beyond the reckoning of most races and mastered wizardry long ago.  They have since redirected their energies to the subtleties of economics, a new battlefield where wealth provides the only score card.
> 
> Yesheveran’s surface is all rocky crags and verdant valleys, rugged terrain that makes for rugged people.  There is no sun; instead, light waxes and wanes regularly with no visible source.  As one descends below the surface into the deeps, which are lit with a glow as strong as moonlight in most places, the surface-dwelling races become less common.  The depths are ruled by the drow elves, beings of urbane and sophisticated narcissism that see themselves as the bearers of civilization.  The noble houses of the drow are essentially trading consortiums, elaborately Byzantine in structure and controlled at the top by a select few noble-born drow who manifest superior magical and mental aptitude at an early age.
> ...




So what do you think?  I'd love to hear your opinions, especially since this stuff is hardly set in stone at this point.


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## Chassama (Sep 20, 2004)

I think the basis of the planes is a good idea.  There's enough there to give a good base to any character.  

As it applies to my character, I think I would have hailed from Kelluna.  It's a place where, basically, strength rules (there's my preoccupation with strength), and religious freaks abound.  Obviously, worshiping a god other than one of the proxies would not be good, thus why I'm no longer on that plane (with my worshiping Kord and all).

The other planes sound interesting, and I'd like to see what kinda people come from each...


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## Kelleris (Sep 20, 2004)

Chassama, the Proxies technically worship the usual gods, including Kord.  The situation is analogous to multiple Protestant sects springing up from different readings of the same Bible.  Since Kord personally isn't around to settle the issue, his proxies are the authorities on religious matters, and they're notorious for disagreeing even when they're working from the same canon.


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## Thunderbird459 (Sep 20, 2004)

Honestly, Kell, do you really have that many spare MHz of brain time to come up with all this stuff _and_ still get your BA in A Little Bit of Everything? Such barely contained creativity confounds the mind of this one who gets a headache trying to create a name for his characters.

Anyway, I'm considering Caeldwyste or Dromus. Perhaps there is a nice mountain conveniently located near a trade route or town in Caeldwyste that I can tunnel my store/workshop/home out of?

Edit: PAGE!!!!!


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## Kelleris (Sep 20, 2004)

Chassama said:
			
		

> I think the basis of the planes is a good idea. There's enough there to give a good base to any character.




Thanks, that's the biggest thing I was worried about.



			
				Thunderbird459 said:
			
		

> Honestly, Kell, do you really have that many spare MHz of brain time to come up with all this stuff and still get your BA in A Little Bit of Everything? Such barely contained creativity confounds the mind of this one who gets a headache trying to create a name for his characters.




That sounds suspiciously like a compliment.      Actually, I hate coming up with names too, you can blame DemonWolfZero for most of these.

I haven't decided yet on specific geographical features of Caeldwyste, so if you want a mountain, lo there shall be one.  Caeldwyste has its own trade routes, of course, but if you want to do business with the traffic going through Dromus you'll need to set up shop near the gate town of Whispermere.

Why a tunnel in a mountain, though?  Sticking with your dwarven heritage to the bitter end?


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## Mad Hatter (Sep 20, 2004)

Hey Kell, Feiran is almost finished.  I'm just putting finishing touches on her and voila! she'll be done.

Also. I think that I will be setting a Holyfire Seat of governement on Kelluna.  If you agree, then Feiran will be doing something like a learning exhacnge thing.  So, she'll be from the Imperium and vacationing in Dromus.  Sound good?

One more thing, can I place the Teravians somewhere?  Maybe you can use 'em or something.


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## Thunderbird459 (Sep 21, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> That sounds suspiciously like a compliment.



What good is a complement if it's not a backhanded one?

"And so it was that at the prayer of the dwarf, a mountain sprung from the land on the outskirts of Whispermere. And it was good." - Hitchhiker's Guide to the Multiverse

The reason for wanting an excavated lair is partially because it is heritage and comfort, but also to show those damned snobby relatives that just because he spent as much time in the library with a spellbook as he did in the forge with a hammer doesn't mean he can't still tunnel with the best of 'em.


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## Mad Hatter (Sep 21, 2004)

Keep tellin' yourself that, Wee One.  Just keep on tellin' yourself that  

EDIT:  Kell, wizards.com has new ice stuff.  You might want to check it out.  They have a new substance.  It's called blue ice, it's really cool.  LOL, look at me I made a funny.  Sorry about that, caffeine+studying=makes everything funny.


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## Chassama (Sep 21, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> Chassama, the Proxies technically worship the usual gods, including Kord.  The situation is analogous to multiple Protestant sects springing up from different readings of the same Bible.  Since Kord personally isn't around to settle the issue, his proxies are the authorities on religious matters, and they're notorious for disagreeing even when they're working from the same canon.




Still, it could be said that I'm on the bad side of most of them and had to run because I don't worship through one of them.  Basically, it still  comes out the same.  And that's the basic idea I had as to why I'm in Dromus in the first place.  A 'disagreement' with the proxies.


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## Kelleris (Sep 21, 2004)

> I think that I will be setting a Holyfire Seat of governement on Kelluna. If you agree, then Feiran will be doing something like a learning exhacnge thing. So, she'll be from the Imperium and vacationing in Dromus.




So where are you from, Kelluna or the Imperium?  Or neither?  You have to live in one or the other, unless you're wealthy enough to shell out 250 gp and a day's meditation every time you move.  You have avery confusing way of phrasing things.

I like the image of your mystic theurge pounding away at the rock muttering about his parents, Thunderbird.  Heehee.  Anyway, feel free to get your stronghold-building on.

Chassama, the background's just fine, except that you have to at least pay lip service to one of the Proxies.  I just wanted to make sure there was no confusion heading into this, especially since clerics have a great deal of built-in baggage.  You may not be orthodox enough to stick around comfortably, but all the divine energy around here comes through a _soul collector_.

Instead of doctrinal conflict, why don't you have some sort of shame on the field of contest that has you seeking atonement to overcome your shame?  Half-orcs aren't really known for their sophisticated theology anyway.


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## Chassama (Sep 22, 2004)

You're probably right about the half-orc theology.  Except I have a wisdom of 17.  Even a half-orc with that kind of wisdom could be dangerous to the normal theological leaders.  Perhaps moreso with the way you described Kelluna.  Or at least how I perceived your description of Kelluna.  

On the other hand, I'll see what I can come up with about the "shame on the field of contest" idea.  My original thought was that I'm in Dromus because I didn't even bother to "pay lip service" to any of proxies. But, *shrug* who knows what'll come of this.


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## Conundrum (Sep 23, 2004)

We could start our own fan club with all these praises going around.


Anyway, I'm just waiting on you shmucks to get done.  Vayshor's ready to go.  Let me know more as the time approaches.


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## Kelleris (Sep 23, 2004)

Well, we'll start as soon as I have everyone's characters posted and reviewed.  The idea is kinda that you post them as you finish them.    

Well, I can understand being a little lazy about it, I guess.   :\   Anxious to get started, though, so I'll have more of a reason to check these threads compulsively.


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## Mad Hatter (Sep 23, 2004)

Feiran is from the Imperium.


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## DemonWolfZero (Sep 23, 2004)

Alrighty then...Kelleris, you got a format for me to post in?  NPC block?  Lemme know and I'll put up Adinal and Mathilde.


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## Kelleris (Sep 23, 2004)

Well then.  For now you can post in whatever format you like, since I'll only be reviewing the characters in this thread, but if you'd like a guideline, here's Loopy's character sheet.  It's quite long, but this is what I'm looking for:

*Loopmotten Scheppen the First*

*Male Human (mirrorcursed)
Barbarian 1/Battle Sorcerer 5
Chaotic Good*

*Size:* M (6'2", 194 lb.)
*HD:* 1d12+4 plus 5d8+20
*HP:* 58/76 raging
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* 40 ft.
*AC:* 6 (-2 Dex, -1 Vulnerable, -1 Aggressive)
*BAB:* +4
*XP: *15,000 / 21,000 for level 7


*Attributes:*

*Str:* 16 (+3) [10 pts]
*Dex:* 6 (-2) [-2 pts]
*Con:* 18 (+4) [8 pts + 4th level + _+2 item_]
*Int:* 16 (+3) [10 pts]
*Wis:* 8 (-1) [0 pts]
*Cha:* 14 (+2) [6 pts]


*Attacks:*

_Baatorian green steel falchion_ +8/+11 raging (2d4+5/+10 raging, 18-20/x2)


*Saves:*

*Fort:* +6/+9 raging (+3 base)
*Ref:* +3 (+1 base)
*Will:* +5/+7 raging (+4 base)


*Skills:*

Bluff: +7 (5 C)
Climb: +7 (4 C)
Diplomacy: +6.5 (2 cc + 2.5 cc)
Intimidate: +11 (4 C + 5 C)
Jump: +11 (4 C)
Knowledge(the Planes): +7.5 (2 cc + 2.5 cc)
Perform(oratory): +6.5 (2 cc + 2.5 cc)
Spellcraft: +8 (5 C)
Swim: +7 (4 C)
Survival: +3/+5 other planes (4 C)


*Feats:*

Lightning Reflexes (for Meager Fortitude)
Cleave (for Vulnerable)
Power Attack (Human Bonus)
Reckless Offensive (1st Level)
Reckless Rage (3rd Level)
Arcane Strike (6th Level)


*Class Abilities:*

Fast Movement
Rage (1/day +6 Str, +6 Con, +2 Will save, -4 AC, 10 rounds)
Spells
Summon Familiar

Spells (5/6/4 per day; 5/3/1 known): 0-level - _dancing lights, flare, ghost sound, glittering razors, thunderhead_; 1st-level - _enlarge person, magic missile, true strike_; 2nd-level - _pyrotechnics_


*Racial Abilities:*

Bonus feat at 1st level
4 extra skill points at 1st level
1 extra skill point every level after 1st


*Languages:*

Common
Giant
Dwarven
Orc


*Equipment:*

_Baatorian green steel falchion_ (2400 gp) [8 lbs.]

_Bracers of the Rhino _(2000 gp) [2 lbs.]
_Vest of Resistance +2_ (4000 gp) [3 lbs.]
_Amulet of Health +2_ (4000 gp) [1 lb.]

_4 Potions of Cure Light Wounds_ (200 gp) [0.5 lbs.]
_Scroll of Bear's Endurance_ (150 gp) (0.5 lbs.)
_Scroll of Grease_ (0.25 lbs.)
_Scroll of Obscuring Mist _(2) (0.5 lbs.)

razorwire vest (3 lbs.)
sleeveless cream-colored robe, matching loose-fitting pantaloons (6 lbs.)
spell component pouch (2 lbs.)
3 flasks alchemist's fire (3)
2 tanglefoot bags (8 lbs.)
3 sunrods (3 lbs.)
3 bags of caltrops (6 lbs.)

27 gp, 17 sp, 34 cp

46.75 lbs. carried / 76 lbs. light load

*Description:*

Loopy is a tall man of wiry strength, somewhat incongruously because he's very strong and not very dexterous.  His usual costume is a cream-colored sleeveless robe worn open at the waist and matching pantaloons, baggy enough for hot weather.  He wears his blonde hair tied back out of his way, and varies between clean-shaven and full-bearded on some bizarre schedule of his own.  He would also tend to stand out in crowd, a tendency which he exacerbates by being both friendly and loud at most times.  When he is expecting combat, he dons a specially-made razorwire vest (he hates being grappled) made of black silk shot through with silvery strands of very sharp-edged filament.  It does tend to tear up his clothes after a while, but Loopy considers this a decent trade-off for such an efficient fashion accessory.  He always carries with him his distinctive green-hued weapon, "Cleavastator", so named because he felt that "Cleaver" lacked the proper number of syllables for a gladiator's weapon.  He carries no sheath for the weapon, instead lodging it in whatever inanimate object comes to hand.  This makes him unpopular at upscale shindigs.

*History:*

Loopy's history actually goes back farther than he knows.  An archmage of superlative power, Kelleris Fortunesbane, was captured in his own weapon and cast into the void millennia ago by some rather upset deities, and has been looking for a way out ever since.  One of his primary tools in this endless but as-yet-unsuccessful quest are the mirrorcursed, souls magically claimed by Kelleris before they are born.  He does not control these mortals, however, far from it; he is merely able to imbue them with an enviable sense of purpose.

Loopmotten Scheppen's purpose is simple; to become the leader of a school of combat.  This is easier said than done, however, when you refuse to wear armor for any reason and consider lodging your opponent's weapons in your body to be a useful way to get through their defenses.  Loopy has been saddled with this purpose in life as the result of a wager between Kelleris and his only companion, a slightly-unstable demigod known as the Jabberwocky.

Despite this ill-starred goal in life, Loopy has developed a surprising dedication to his task, and seems likely to continue to seek his dreams unless some dire fate befalls him first.  He has wandered for many years seeking willing apprentices, but has had little luck up to this point.  His only notable success has in fact not been (demi)human at all, but the rabid dire badger familiar of a warrior-arcanist Loopy encountered many years ago.  The mage was so pleased with the results that he renamed his familiar "Loopmotten Scheppen the Second", retroactively making Loopy the first of the line despite the fact that he has no children of his own.

Now he has come to the mighty city of gladiators to prove the worth of his style.  If he can succeed here, he's sure that he will be able to win converts to his banner and fulfill his life-long ambition.  To that end, Loopy has spent the last several weeks practicing at the stable he has joined, designing flashy signature moves to get the crowd riled up properly, and practicing his spellcasting so he can provide his own special effects.

*Personality:*

Loopy is almost annoyingly upbeat, although his charm prevents anyone from getting too upset with this trait.  Always ready to charge headlong into a situation, he relies on quick-thinking more than any innate intuitive abilities to get him out.  He becomes grimmer and serious as he suffers the injuries of close battle, however, as the technique that he has perfected to rapidly heal wounds (see Tactics, below) causes great mental strain.

While not a natural leader, Loopy has a tendency to order people around when he feels he knows what's best for them, though only if he thinks he can get away with it without offending anyone too much.  The fact is that the blonde barbarian-sorcerer is surprisingly intelligent though, so this advice is good more often than not.

As far as moral and ethical outlook, Loopmotten is chaotic good not due to a systematic philosophy but because he has always been that way - as a wanderer with a generally optimistic personality, life tends to _be_ both ever-changing and good at heart for Loopy.  He has a hard time understanding people who are unable to let go of some slight or wrong done to them.  Although he gets very worked up in combat, it isn't a bloodlust, more of an exuberance that comes from knowing that you are fulfilling your purpose in life right at that moment.

*Tactics:*

Loopy is a man of many moods as regards his tactics, but he usually plays combats in one of two ways, the cunning sorcerer or the screaming barbarian, with relatively little interaction between the sides.  His choice rarely seems applicable to the battle hand, and tuned more to some internal rhythm.  Oddly, the better mood that Loopy is in, the more likely he is to rage and go in for the kill.

A raging Loopy is a sight to behold.  He generally tends to lunge into the middle of a group of enemies and try to cut down an important figure there with one mighty blow, and spends the next round promising more of the same to anyone who doesn't break ranks.  After a lifetime spent intimidating people into avoiding any falchion-related unpleasantness, Loopy has gotten quite good at scaring off the now-leaderless opponents.

As a more cunning opponent, Loopy tends to favor the flanker role, hanging back with spells until he can pick off a single foe with one mighty lunge, often unexpected coming as it does from someone wearing no armor and playing the part of the mage.  Most enemies overlook the falchion, assuming Loopy carries it for show or as a ritualistic athame, or at least thinking that he won’t be able to deal more damage with it than with his sorcery.  This is a deadly mistake to make, and Loopy especially enjoys preying on outsiders in this way, proud beings that they are.  For some reason he has never fully understood, he has always viewed these beings as enemies unless proven otherwise, but does not enjoy fighting them enough to work himself into a rage.

*Commentary:*

Loopy's stats take a bit of explaining.  Although he has a 6 Dexterity, this is more reflective of his combat approach than his natural agility.  Loopy isn't used to dodging weapons in combat and doesn't have the careful attention to detail required of rogues, but his reflexes are about average (hence Lightning Reflexes).  He's also suprisingly susceptible to diseases and poisons (Meager Fortitude), although you wouldn't know it to look at him,  Most of his tireless fortitude in combat is a result of his regenerative technique rather than natural toughness.

One other notable aspect of Loopy that is immediately noticed in combat   (usually immediately after the opponent notices that his enemy doesn't bother to defend himself in any way) is the technique of instant regeneration he has perfected, the pinnacle of his self-taught style.  Though he generally suffers mortal wounds on a daily basis, he has learned the art of diffusing his life force throughout his body, meaning that opponents must do quite a bit of damage to slow him down.  This in itself is often unnerving to opponents.


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## Chassama (Sep 25, 2004)

Well... Here's the workup on my character.  I haven't finished the history part of the character yet, but this is the numbers.


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## Kelleris (Sep 27, 2004)

Where're everyone's characters?  I've just been idling away the time making technologist devices, but don't get the impression that this is a one-at-a-time thing.  I'd like to get this going relatively soon, you know.  

Don't be intimidated by the Loopy post, by the way.  Aside from being an example of what I have in mind, it's also a convenient way to save the character sheet as the game I made it for plummets ever further down the message boards.  Just FYI.

Okay, Chassama, I've looked over your character, and there are some issues:


Might want to include some clothes in your equipment list.  
As you have the character set up, you are not proficient with the greatsword, and therefore have a -4 attack penalty with it.  Neither of your domains grant it, and clerics have only simple weapons as a base.  A greatsword is martial.
We are using 38 point buy for these characters.  Assuming I'm reading your notes correctly, you have spent 42 points and therefore need to reduce your stats accordingly.
You spent too much gold.  All magical items must be masterwork, and the masterwork bonus is _not_ included in the items price.  A masterwork greatsword is 350 gold, a masterwork heavy steel shield is 320 gold, and a suit of masterwork chainmail is 450 gold.  Ergo, you are over by 1120 gold pieces.  Note also that you must specify which masterwork component you have on these items.  Refer to my house rules for the specifics.
I have no earthly clue how to read your saving throw entries.  They should be Fort +12, Ref +4, and Will +7, but I have no idea what you have listed here.
Is _audience_ meant to be _guidance_?  Otherwise, you are short an orison and have one too many of something else.
You can't wield a greatsword one-handed without the Monkey Grip feat, which you don't have listed.  That means you can either use your shield or fight with your greatsword, but not both.
Meridonelathis is the least orc-like name I have ever seen.      If you were raised so far outside of orc culture that you got named that, you should probably change your racial bonus language to that of whomever you were raised by (Elven, Celestial, or whatever).


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## Chassama (Sep 28, 2004)

First off, I figured regular clothing would be assumed to be on all characters, but that was easy to fix.
  As a cleric of Kord, I am automatically given the proficiency with his chosen weapon, the greatsword.
  As for the stats, I ROLLED the stats right in front of you and you okayed them.
  The saving throws read:  Class+Stat+Magic+Misc(feats, etc..).  And yes, I am aware that I included the magic in with the misc area.  That was an error on my part.  It has been fixed.
  Yes, the greatsword is two-handed.  That means I'll either use the sword or the sheild.  I understood that when I made the character.
  As far as the name is concerned, that is just another of the oddities about this character.
  And for the gold and masterwork problem,  my ability to transfer info was the error.  The shield is only a +1.  Though thanks for calling that to my attention.  I have 2180 gp spare.  The belt is 16000, the cloak is 1000, the armor is 4300, the shield is 1170, and the sword is 2350.
  I don't have the chart here to tell me how many spells I know of each level.  I count 7 orisons in total, but don't know if that's what I'm supposed to be at.

Ok.  So here is the sheet revised.


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## Kelleris (Sep 28, 2004)

Simply being a cleric of a given deity isn't enough to give you their favored weapon:



> Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, with all types of armor (light, medium, and heavy), and with shields (except tower shields).
> 
> _A cleric who chooses the War domain receives the Weapon Focus feat related to his deity’s weapon as a bonus feat. He also receives the appropriate Martial Weapon Proficiency feat as a bonus feat, if the weapon falls into that category_.




Only a cleric with the war domain is granted additional weapon proficiencies, since some deities have weapons that are clearly superior to others.  Vecna's dagger < Kord's greatsword.

The stats were fine when we were just playing a quick pick-up game, but since you're using the same character for what should be a much longer game, you have to use the same rules as everyone else.

Masterwork chainmail costs 450 gold, not 300, since I changed the masterworking rules.  You do get more bang for your buck now, though, and the option of selecting a different component than the default bonus.


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## Chassama (Sep 28, 2004)

You know what... nevermind.  I refuse to play D&D under "point buy" systems.  I do not see enough of a variation in stats for the difference in characters to matter.  I'm out of the game.


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## Kelleris (Sep 28, 2004)

I'm sorry to hear that Chassama, but please reconsider.



			
				Chassama said:
			
		

> I refuse to play D&D under "point buy" systems. I do not see enough of a variation in stats for the difference in characters to matter.




Do you mean that all character in point buy come out with the same stats?  Because that's patently untrue.  I have been using point buy for well over a year now and the only thing i've noticed is that there are more even-numbered stats.  Or do you mean something else?

Well, Chassama, your current stats are like so, before racial adjustments and other stuff:

16 (10 points), 13 (5 points), 15 (8 points), 12 (4 points), 16 (10 points), 13 (5 points)

If you wanted to minimize the changes to your character, you could simply drop one 13 by 3 points and the other by 1 point.  You'll lose a point of modifier on either Desterity or Charisma, but neither of those are any great loss.  You're still significantly better than the average half-orc across the board.

I also forgot to mention earlier that you have only spent 21 of your 22 skill points.  Sorry about that.


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## Chassama (Sep 28, 2004)

Actually, what I meant is that there is not enough variation in the different characters' stats.  If I were to walk out into the street, I would find people that are better than me in EVERY way, and people that are worse in EVERY way.  Granted the average will be about on par, but not everyone has stats that balance with everyone else.  I hate the mechanic of "point buy" and refuse to use it.  As far as the skill thing is concerned, I have one rank in Listen, which is cross-class.  That accounts for the last skill point.

Edit:  Now that I think about it, I've actually met people on both sides of that statement.  I will not name them, but know that they do exist.


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## Kelleris (Sep 28, 2004)

> If I were to walk out into the street, I would find people that are better than me in EVERY way, and people that are worse in EVERY way.




And how is that different than real life?  I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure there are people out there who just blow me out of the water.  Like say Viggo Mortenson, who besides being a charismatic guy and probably quite fit also happens to be a published poet.  And then there's Jo-jo the man-ape, who's pretty much worse than me in every way.

Even rolling dice means that there will be some who "rolled" really well and outclass you across the board and some who did just the opposite.  All point buy means is that we have a system that makes sure all of the PCs are on par, which is no more of a stretch than saying that you all happen to be the same level.

I guess I just don't get your complaint, but point-buy is how I run my games.  If there's some accommodation that you'd like I'll be willing to consider it but I reserve the right to determine stat-generation methods in my games.


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## Kelleris (Sep 28, 2004)

And now an aside:

For anyone looking at/worried about the Technologist I have here a small sampling of about 20 gadgets for your perusal.  There's also one ridiculously powerful greater artifact for you to drool over.   

EDIT: Removed the document to move it to a central location.


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## Chassama (Sep 28, 2004)

Actually, you were just arguing my point.  When I made that statement, I was talking about me in real life.

Rolling the stats gives you a perfect variation.  That's why it's the STANDARD method.  "Point buy" is AN ALTERNATIVE method.  It gives you neither the randomness of what you may have been born, nor unbalances the population of the peoples.  A character created with a low wisdom and a high intellegence may still want to be a cleric.  It helps that he has a high charisma, and a decent constitution, but that's not needed.  With "point buy" you can't get stats like that.  At least not with the point allotment you're allowing.

Sorry about the rant that seems to have a heavily offensive tone.  I didn't mean it to be an attack.  I was just trying make my feelings on the matter clear and couldn't find a better way to phrase it.  Anyways...  I don't really see any way around this little conundrum, so I'm afraid my last decision stands.  I'd rather pull out than obscure my beleifs.


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## Tux the Penguin (Sep 28, 2004)

Technically, Robert, you still can have a low Wisdom cleric and all since you have full control over the scores (well, up to a limit).

But I tend to agree with you that Point Buy seems a little agianst the grain, especially when you add in average HP.  But the real reason that Kelsey uses Point Buy is that HE rolls very poorly.  Trevor usually rolls fairly well.  Then agian, Trevor usually plays a much more simple character than Kelsey, so having one or two bad stats doesn't hurt him as much.

As for my character... I'm working on it (sorta).  I'll finish it eventually.


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## Kelleris (Sep 28, 2004)

> Rolling the stats gives you a perfect variation. That's why it's the STANDARD method. "Point buy" is AN ALTERNATIVE method.




An alternative which I am using, yes.  And I still don't see why you can't just make exactly the same character stat block you had before, minus a few points.  But whatever.  Or if you like, just roll a block and then buy it with points.  Adjust a bit to bring yourself in line with the power level of the rest of the party, and you're set.



> But the real reason that Kelsey uses Point Buy is that HE rolls very poorly. Trevor usually rolls fairly well.




Ah, I see.  I'm out to aggrandize the character I'm not playing and screw over you and Trevor.  Right.  I do like to use point buy when I play, because I can't roll a decent stat block to save my life.  But I never force other people to do likewise.  I'm DMing this, though, so my character isn't really an issue, now is it?  Here are the _real_ real reasons why I'm using point buy:


It makes the players even across their characters.  You, Trevor, and Brittany never seem to roll low on stats, while Richard and a few others never roll particularly well.
It means that if I recruit players from the web at large to fill out this game (which I'm probably going to have to do, now) I don't have to either use dfferent rules for them and the "real players" or have to trust them to roll their stats.
It lets me set the power level of the campaign much more easily than assigning a dice range, and by average probabilities (which, strangely, you guys never seem to obey) 38 points is quite a bit higher than 4d6 take the 3 highest.  I want a pretty wahoo game, so that's the number I picked.  According to the DMG, that's 6 points better than a "high-powered campaign" and _13 points_ over the NPC elite array.  If you're having problems making a character with that many points, I suggest you go play a supers game.  Or possibly BESM.


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## Tux the Penguin (Sep 28, 2004)

Kelsey, you always ask to use point buy in a game you're playing in, so that is partially the issue.

Personally, I like the Stat Block for pick-up games since it allows everyone to generally be on the same teir power-wise.  But in long term games, I think the random nature of the game tends to even out over the course of thousands of rolls.

Trevor and Brittany rolls even better than I do, but part of the reason that there characters seem to be more powerful is two fold: one, they take a single idea and push it to the limit (Trevor especially) and second, both are good at finding dump stats and the ilk.

Here's the problem with point-buy: a monk or paladin need better stats than a wizard does.  Wizards need Intelligence and maybe some Dexterity thrown in.  But in whole, their abilities come from their Intelligence.

Paladins, on the other hand, need a Con for the fighting, a Strength for the attacks, Charisma for their Divine Grace, and Wisdom for their casting.  And that's just to cover their class abilities.  Whereas a wizard can have an 18 in Intelligence and do fairly well, a Paladin is at a loss comparitively.  Then agian, the class "supposedly" adjusts for this, but I don't really buy it, especially with the strict code of conduct.

I don't care if we're using Point Buy or rolling, but don't betray part of your bias Matt.  You like Point Buy because it allows you to stay even when you are playing.

BTW, Robert, here's a revision that brings it down to 38 points:

Str: 18
Dex: 12 (down from 13, so no loss in the modifier)
Con: 14 (down from 15, agian no loss in modifier)
Int: 10
Wis: 15 (down from 16)*
Cha: 10 (down from 11)

*the loss of the modifier here is reduced since you cannot cast 5th level spells yet (although next level you would be able to) and you have a good will save.  Go and buy a Periapt of Wisdom +2 and you'd be set.


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## Kelleris (Sep 28, 2004)

Tux said:
			
		

> I don't care if we're using Point Buy or rolling, but don't betray part of your bias *Kelleris*. You like Point Buy because it allows you to stay even _when you are playing_.






			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> I do like to use point buy _when I play_, because I can't roll a decent stat block to save my life. But I never force other people to do likewise.




Does that sound like betraying my bias to you?  I do like point buy when I'm playing, obviously, but the fact that I can't roll high stats has very little to do with it _when I'm Dming_.



			
				Tux said:
			
		

> But in long term games, I think the random nature of the game tends to even out over the course of thousands of rolls.




Except that your base stats never change.  Lucky rolls come and lucky rolls go, but (un)lucky rolls for stats are with you forever.



			
				Tux said:
			
		

> Here's the problem with point-buy: a monk or paladin need better stats than a wizard does. Wizards need Intelligence and maybe some Dexterity thrown in. But in whole, their abilities come from their Intelligence.




That's a problem with multiple-ability dependancy.  It has nothing to do with point buy and everything to do with the specific class.  In fact, using point buy for these characters is a _good _thing because you can make sure you have the minimum acceptable stats you need, whereas if you rolled the stats you have to take what you can get and minimize the damage.  In fact, the point buy rules make it easier to buy lots of good stats than one high stat for just this reason.  You can buy two 14s and a 12 for the price of one 18.

In any case, it's probably not worth hashing out any more unless someone has a substantial objection they haven't voiced yet.


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## Chassama (Sep 28, 2004)

I can see Kelleris' point.  Doing the game online, he can't really trust people to roll the stats.  I just have an objection to using point buy.  I was under the impression the stats I rolled there would be good for this too when I made the character.  I can make out the character the way you want and post it, but I won't play it.  The loss of stat points isn't really what irks me either.  I've played at least one character with poor stats.  I had a -3 mod, two -1's, a 0, a +1, and a +4.  Yes, a -3!  I had a strength of 5.  On the other hand I've had a character with a total +19, and it still sucked.

Oh, and Tux, that gives me 2 points to play with...


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## Kelleris (Sep 28, 2004)

Well, I haven't much use for your character except as played by you, so I guess that isn't really necessary.  Is there another character you'd like to play that would work with my rules?

EDIT: Alternatively, would you be willing to take a minor penalty of some sort and keep your current stats, Chassama?  Half-orcs already get something of a raw deal as it is, and point-buy probably makes it slightly worse.  Making up for 2-3 points of stats wouldn't require much in this case.


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## Chassama (Sep 29, 2004)

That's not really the point.  If you look at the last update, my modifiers are the same as the original.  Well... Except my constitution.  I'll need one more stat point to put it at original.  On the first run, my 4th level point pushed it up.  With this one it didn't.  That's the only difference.  

My objection is with the very basis of "point buy."  I severely dislike it.


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## Kelleris (Sep 29, 2004)

To the point where you aren't even willing to compromise a bit and not even change your stats?

Uhm...  Okay then.  Not much I can do with that.

Well, er...  See you around then.   :\


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## DemonWolfZero (Sep 29, 2004)

I'd just like to pop in to point out that I think this whole thing is just silly.  But whatever.  If one person can't compromise, the group shouldn't suffer.  See ya 'round Chassama.

I'll have my char sheet ready for you as soon as I have that damned power worked out Kelleris.


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## Mad Hatter (Sep 30, 2004)

Feiran will be up really soon, Kell.  Probably by this Fri or Sat.  Sorry, I'm taking so long.


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## TrevWar (Sep 30, 2004)

*Please excuse the misspellings, I know there here...  ...FOUND ONE!*



			
				Kell said:
			
		

> Lucky rolls come and lucky rolls go, but (un)lucky rolls for stats are with you forever.



The cows may come and the cows may go, but the bull in this house goes on forever...  ROFLMAO     




			
				Kell said:
			
		

> It has nothing to do with point buy and everything to do with the specific class.



Actually, that's not true.  The point but was the reason I decided not to play a paladin this go around.  I was considering playing one.  Remember when I asked you if I could have a Chocobo as a mount and you said no, it was then that I also remembered that we'd be using point buy and I wouldn't be able to make a paladin that would be able to survive in your games, let alone do well, that's why I didn't ask any thing further on being a paladin... :\   Why do you think I picked Soul Knife, or a fighter type in general?  I have 3 stats to consern my self with and I'm good past that.  You always complain about how our characters are incompitant and can never perform to what they sould so I stoped caring and trying a good while back.  Now I just power construct a character that can survive so I can play and have fun with other things, like bar fights and tackling the mage in his tower...  right out the window and to the ground...  floor...




			
				Kell said:
			
		

> In fact, using point buy for these characters is a good thing because you can make sure you have the minimum acceptable stats you need.



True, true... as long as your just going *for* the minimum...




			
				Kell said:
			
		

> You can buy two 14s and a 12 for the price of one 18.



I rest mine and Soy's case...  If we went through one of your games with 14s and 12s, we'd die in the first 2 sessions *if* you didn't give heavy DM intervension constantly... And that shows through after a while.  Or you could slow down the story and plot, but that's just never a good idea...


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## Lazlow (Sep 30, 2004)

Ola!  Are you still taking players?  (I scanned the thread a bit to see if you've closed the game, but I didn't see anything...)  Your game world looks quite intriguing.


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## Kelleris (Sep 30, 2004)

Oh, that's okay, I guess.  Everyone else is taking just as long, so you aren't holding anything up, really.  You might want to e-mail me any device write-ups you have first, though, since those will likely take the most time and effort to hammer out.


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## Kelleris (Oct 1, 2004)

Er, sorry, I didn't notice Lazlow and Trevor while typing my last post.

@ Lazlow - Sure, we, ah, just developed an opening.      I was actually planning on asking for more recruits pretty soon, once I know how many I'll need, but I can appreciate your forward-thinking, go-getter attitude!     Just post a character concept of some sort (or better yet, a character _sheet_) and we'll go from there.  You'll have 8 levels to work with; everything else should be in the house rules document.

@ TrevWar - Probably best anyway, man.  Paladins just don't last long in these parts, and it's not even (entirely) my fault.  I have no idea where you coming from with the MAD thing, since almost all of my characters suffer horribly from it and I prefer point buy:

Arion Kietsudoku - High Dexterity, Intelligence, Charisma, and Constitution.
Loopmotten Scheppen the Third - High Strength, Constitution, Intelligence, and Charisma.
Adauth Mirorwyn - High Intelligence, Charisma, Dexterity, middling Strength and Wisdom.

Heck, even Kelleris was a pain to make because I wanted good stats in everything and a phenomenal Charisma and Intelligence.  Who knew a 40 in two stats would be so hard to manage?


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## Kelleris (Oct 1, 2004)

Right.  Well, I have a special bonus post for you today: a regional history of Dromus.  Some fun facts - the current campaign begins in 198 CP (no, I haven't gotten there yet) and the old, sadly lamented Dromus game started in Astrulayr (spring) of -8 CP.  I'll let you guys try to figure out which of the events of that time period were your fault.      For now, anyway...

NOTE: Dates are in *bold*, to give you a rough timeline.



> *Dromus Regional History*
> _     The entire regional history of Dromus spans only some 460 years since the creation of the plane of Khatheram, as reckoned by the universal calendar adopted by the seven planes following the Crossroads War.  Therefore, all dates are given from the Treaty of Capitulation, signed on year 1 of the CP (cessenti pactum) calendar.
> 
> According to the best guesses of arcane scholars and historians, Khatheram began to form in the year *-362 CP*, but was uninhabitable for more than a century and a half after this time; the primordial landscape was too malleable and twisted to support anything like demihuman life.  The first recognizably humanoid peoples to arrive on the plane were small groups of Tangler elves, which had arrived and colonized the verdant and newly-created forests by *-207 CP*.  More organized settlement began shortly thereafter, as surface-dwelling Yesheveran paid for the use of drow-created portals and settled in the flatlands of the new world.
> ...


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## DemonWolfZero (Oct 1, 2004)

I wanna be a heroic adventurer!  Wait...Agni was a crazy, pyrokinetic wolf...that's not very heroic now, is it?


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## Kelleris (Oct 1, 2004)

*laughs nefariously*


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## TrevWar (Oct 2, 2004)

Hey, are you allowing flaws?

Page 6 is mine!!!


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## Mad Hatter (Oct 2, 2004)

Finally!  Up and ready for your perusal is Feiran.


*EDIT:* I figured you guys might be interested in the Holyfire history I have.  As I type this, I have this funny feeling that you actually aren't interested  .  But here it is anyways.  If you have comments, suggestions, or anything else by all means let me know.

*EDIT*: I forgot to add miscellaneous stuff about Feiran.  Feiran is a  Proxy Candidate for House Randis.  Kell, the Proxy, House, and Marking systems that I devised are in the history of the Holyfires as well as information about the role of a Holyfire Royal.  The jcandidate part just means she's still training abroad to prove her worth and to she if she can survive long enough.  I also forgot to write what each mark looks like.  The tattoos look like what was discussed over at the group message boards.  If you or anyone else needs a refresher on the desription just let me know.


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## Kelleris (Oct 4, 2004)

@ TrevWar - Yes, they're okay as long that aren't *too* transparent as power grabs.  And I'll expect you to RP them, of course.

Now where did that Lazlow character run off to?


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## Lazlow (Oct 4, 2004)

Sorry for the delay, Kelleris - as it turns out, I got in another game that I was waiting for, which puts me at my personal limit (unfortunately).  Good luck, perhaps I'll be able to join another game at a later date.  Thanks for the opportunity.


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## TrevWar (Oct 5, 2004)

Well I'm going over a couple of character ideas, 3 actually, and I'm thinking only 1 of the characters may have a flaw or two... But I usually love feats to death any way so...

Any way, the character ideas I've gone running though my head are:
A Human Soul Knife(8)
A Human Ranger(4) / Fighter(4)
A Human Sorc (Necromancer)(5) / Human Paragon(3)

Any input on which one might be better to play?

Oh, and has any one seen my Unearthed Arcana???


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## Mad Hatter (Oct 5, 2004)

They all sound good, but what specifically is it that you want to do?


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## Kelleris (Oct 5, 2004)

The sorcerer would certainly be a change of pace for you.  What bloodline were you thinking about?  Know how you feel about the feats, too...


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## TrevWar (Oct 5, 2004)

Mad Hatter said:
			
		

> They all sound good, but what specifically is it that you want to do?



Well I haven't thought much about the Soul Knife...  Errol and I have been toying around with it, but I've only had the basic fighter thoughts of using the Sould Knife combinations in tactical combat.  Run in and hit the first guy with a bastard sword sould knife, then "drop" it and Free Action Form Mind Blade (long sword) and free action activate my glove of storing dagger mind blade (if even possible) and use two weapon defense, but at the begining of each round throw the mind dagger and free action re-from it to keep going.  That's the extent of the thoughts on that character.

The Ranger (4) / Fighter (4) is an idea Soy and I are tossing around.  We've only talked about it a couple of times, and we were thinking of being the last 2 remaining members of some clan some where.  We're scout, and we were on patrol one day, we returned home for sleep and the entire village was in ruins.  So we salvaged what we could and ventured some were safe or able to continue living.  He would be a dual wielder and I'd be an archer.  That's about the sum of that one...

My most recent idea has been a Lawful/Evil Sorc who specializes in Necromancy (forsaking Enchantment and Illusion).  And I had all week end to think about him and I've gotten several ideas on him, you know how I'll hit those character brain storm ideas, though I'm still not sure how I would play him socially.  
I was thinking of taking Human Paragon so I could get the "Talker" skills, since I'll already have the high Charisma, plus an addisional +2 to Cha would be nice.  
I was thinking of him having the Vampire Blood line, but I don't want to lose the caster levels...  But I may still reconsider.  I was thinking of making him a Half-Vampire, but again I don't want to lose the caster levels, and I only want it for the longevity and need to take others blood to survive (even with a ring of Sustinence).
I was thinking of makeing him a slaver in the past, or a slaver's cohort or helper due to his need for blood or something, still thinking about what he may have done there, but I was planning on taking the Leadership feat and still have a slave that takes care of him & that he draws from.  She would be a level 1 expert, so she'd be a follower of sorts not a cohort.  I was thinking the guy he'd helped before had a program for special slaves for certain people, people taught from birth to be slaves (The anime DearS has given me this twisted idea by the way).  Such as merchants, diplomates and all other kinds of officials, and with that I was wondering if you'd allow me to give her a flaw to have a spell as spell like ability, I was wanting to give her Light, Mending, and Prestiditation/Cantrip.  Str8 Dex10 Con14 Int10 Wis8 Cha16 (20 on Point Buy).  
I was wanting to take the Improved Familiar feat and talk to you about making a special familiar.  But I'd have to talk to you about that more.  
Oh, sorry Errol.  I was thinking of this guy having a staff and having a ball of water at the top of it with a skeletal fish in it, which would be his first familiar.  I have no idea why he has a fish or what benefit a fish would give, but as Errol knows, I just found the idea entertaining...


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## Kelleris (Oct 5, 2004)

Just a few things on the Sorcerer, TrevWar:

Droman Sorcerers don't receive familiars automatically; you would have to spend a feat for the ability to summon a familiar.
Slavery is illegal in Dromus, although that doesn't keep you from having the "follower" you mentioned and treating her as a slave - she's just not legally considered chattel.
I'm not so sure about the LE alignment, since it's so different from what everyone else has.  Maybe you could do N instead?  It would fit with a character who fell into bad company because of his, er, "dietary needs" but wasn't himself completely amoral.  Just having slaves isn't necessarily evil by itself, either, depending on where you are from.  An Underdark-dweller in Yesheveran could very well believe that surface-dwellers are subhuman and fit only for servitude and still be a basically nice person otherwise, since that's what he was taught all his life.  Likewise for a monastery-dweller with tribal slaves, although the monasteries typically don't have slaves due to their level of self-sufficiency.
And now the good news.    You won't pay any levels for the major vampire bloodline - it's a package deal with the Sorcerer class in Dromus.  You don't get bloodline benefits for the Human Paragon levels, though.
 Additionally, you don't need to spend a whole feat to get a permanent servant.  Just pay that servant's "wages" for a certain period of time (say, a year) and you've "bought" that slave.


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## TrevWar (Oct 6, 2004)

Kell said:
			
		

> Droman Sorcerers don't receive familiars automatically; you would have to spend a feat for the ability to summon a familiar.



That's interesting...  You know I have to ask why?  I'm not really choked up about it, I'm just curious on your reasoning with it...



			
				Kell said:
			
		

> Maybe you could do N instead? It would fit with a character who fell into bad company because of his, er, "dietary needs" but wasn't himself completely amoral. An Underdark-dweller in Yesheveran could very well believe that surface-dwellers are subhuman and fit only for servitude and still be a basically nice person otherwise, since that's what he was taught all his life.



I'm like'in the sound of this idea...



			
				Kell said:
			
		

> You won't pay any levels for the major vampire bloodline - it's a package deal with the Sorcerer class in Dromus.



I'm liking the sound of this as well...



			
				Kell said:
			
		

> Additionally, you don't need to spend a whole feat to get a permanent servant. Just pay that servant's "wages" for a certain period of time (say, a year) and you've "bought" that slave.



Well, I thought of having a slave first, then I figured I'd need Leadership to get it, and after a while I figured I'd just make it easy and take the feat and attract the cohort later like you had described way back when.  



			
				Kell said:
			
		

> Slavery is illegal in Dromus...  ...she's just not legally considered chattel.



I figured as much...  And I'm not sure how to deal with her shackles.  The idea I had in my head at the start was that she had two cursed ornate mithril bracers with a thick 3' chain running between them, and I have no idea what curse to put on them.  She has almost no will of her own, slavery is all she's known all her life, so I'm not sure what she'd say if a guard asked her any thing...  And I mean any thing, "Hello young lady, what do you think of our fine city?"  I have no idea of the responce she would give if any...

Oh, forgot to ask something.  I found my Unearthed Arcana.  And I was looking though it, and I noticed there were Wizard Variants.  First off the book kept saying "Wizard class", so I'm not sure if they even apply to Sorc, but I'll make the mistake of assuming they do.  And I was already looking at the first variant, and I was going to ask you if you'd allow it.  
You forfiet the ability to summon a familiar (ever as far as I know, even if you take the feats), and in exchange you get an undead warrior cohort (I can't remember what level though).  
I take it this isn't an option with the statment above (Sorcerers don't receive familiars automatically)?


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## Kelleris (Oct 6, 2004)

I dropped the familiar mainly as a balance issue.  I was trying to give Sorcerers an automatic major bloodline, and they don't have a whole lot to give up for it.  I'll still let you take it as a feat, though.

The chains are serious overkill, though.  Historically, what you do is make it easy to recognize the person as a slave, without impeding their movement.  A simple mithral wristband with a sigil scribed into it, possibly magical, is plenty.  You won't get much use out of her if she's chained up 24/7.

If you took the Summon Familiar feat, you could probably use it to get the undead servitor as well.  I've used the variant myself, and it's pretty useful.  It scales in its own way, though, it isn't an ECL you can pick from an available selection for.


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## DemonWolfZero (Oct 6, 2004)

The Sorceror in Dromus has recieved a power boost.  Read the doc file at the start of this thread titled "Droman Classes".  It explains what's going on.

I like the idea of you playing a Yesheveran Underdark-dweller.  That would almost certainly make you a Drow btw


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## Mad Hatter (Oct 6, 2004)

Somehow, I can feel it, this slave thing will end not well.


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## DemonWolfZero (Oct 6, 2004)

Ok, so here it is finally.  I think I wrote him up right.  We'll see, I guess.

Edit:  Mathilde (my thrall) added.


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## Kelleris (Oct 6, 2004)

@ Mad Hatter: Issues I see, in no particular order and without regard to whether I mentioned them already or not:


Where is this armor you speak of?  I see no armor.
Base Attack Bonus should be +6/+1 - Technologist's get Cleric (really, Expert) attack bonus.
Recalculate weapon attack bonuses accordingly.
Jovar damage should be 1 less than it is due to alchemical silver's damage penalty, or because D&D rounds down.  Take your pick.    
Saves should be Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +8.
The _Fundamentals of Null Magic_ class ability requires you to take Technologist abilities marked as antimagic, so Dynamic Linguist and Instinctual Teaching are right out.
Under your devices, you have 14 gadgets listed, 5 non-free upgrades to existing devices, and two lesser technologist abilities.  Tech Adept twice adds two more gadgets.  That's a surplus of a whopping 6 gadgets.
Contrarily, you only have one of 4 technologies listed.  However, it is marked as freely upgraded, although the _Master of Gadgetry_ class ability only applies to gadgets and not technologies.
You don't need to pay for the first version of a device.  The listed cost applies only to replacing lost or broken devices.
You have some errors in the classification of these devices, but since I'm planning on doing a write-up of them to add to the pile anyhow, I'll sort these out later.
You don't have it listed how you assigned stats for the animals.  I could figure it out, but judging from the size of this list, I think I'll let you do it.
We already talked about the alarmingly large ferret, so that's already being considered.
You don't have your total number of stabilization points listed anywhere.  You should have 160 (base) + 35 (high Cha) + 15 (Tech Adept 1) + 15 (Tech Adept 2) = 225 stabilization points per day.


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## Kelleris (Oct 6, 2004)

I posted a recruiting thread here if you want to see who your other partners will be.  I'm looking for 3 people.

And Mad Hatter?  RE the slavery issue, I refer you to DemonWolfZero's character sheet, like so:



			
				Adinal said:
			
		

> Male Human Psion 5/*Thrallherder * 3 Chaotic Good


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## DemonWolfZero (Oct 6, 2004)

Mathilde is NOT a slave.  She just likes me a lot and does whatever I tell her to and I HAVE NO IDEA WHY!


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## Mad Hatter (Oct 6, 2004)

Yeah, Kell I noticed the stabilization point error after I posted.  I just plum forgot to list the armor.  As for BAB and saves, I used the old version of the technologist, which is apparently different.  I will get on the changes and have the new version soon.


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## TrevWar (Oct 7, 2004)

Classes Document said:
			
		

> They do not gain a familiar at first level, and they have two fewer spell slots available per day at every spell level they can cast.



Ooouuuchies...  I take if I can't play a normal Sorc can I?  Taking the Vamp blood line (Major) for free is great and all, but with the vision I have about the character I really don't get any thing out of it of until level 9 (+1 to Charisma), and the Improved initiative is great at level 14, but DR 5/Silver at level 20 is just not buying it for me...  But Vamp is the only thing that would make any lick of sense for him to have.  I can't play a Human with the Fey bloodline that will live forever and drinks blood, its just wrong...


After looking at the races and classes a Grey Elf Wizard with 3 levels in Elf Paragon sounds good since I don't have to worry about Spells Known.  I just read the "Arcane Research" ability and I'm liking that a lot more then the Sorc's current set up, now I can have a familiar, the same # of spells per day and as many spells as I can find, plus the Arcane Research ability, I'm sold, I see no need to be a Sorc at this point.  

Are you allowing us to play with the Wizard Variants on a character-by-character level?  I still like the idea of the Skeleton warrior in place of obtaining a familiar; I mean come on, who wouldn't.  But I'm still thinking about the Enhanced Undead ability, Its nice, but I'd be taking my spells per day down and be down a level in gaining spells per day already.    Hmmmm…  Ideas, counter ideas, any thing???




			
				The Wolf that’s of the Demon persuasion said:
			
		

> Mathilde is NOT a slave. She just likes me a lot and does whatever I tell her to and I HAVE NO IDEA WHY!



I had written it in Exar's history that Cytra was a gift as he was exiled from his home plan.  She's much like an indentured servant of sorts, but the guy she was serving passed her on to me as a way to say he was sorry he had to exile me (he needed a scapegoat and fast).



			
				Kell said:
			
		

> You won't get much use out of her if she's chained up 24/7.



That's why there Mirthril and the chain is 4 feet long.  I would imagine it wouldn't weigh that much.


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## Kelleris (Oct 7, 2004)

Hmm, you're probably right.  I'm going to boost their BAB to Cleric and HD to d8s.  Kinda like an arcane Cleric.  Most bloodlines are combat-heavy for their abilities, so that'll let you use some of them without making you a fighter to be reckoned with right off the bat.

Down with Grey Elves!      Er, I'd rather you go with base races here, since I'm mucking with the classes so much.


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## TrevWar (Oct 7, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> Most bloodlines are combat-heavy for their abilities, so that'll let you use some of them without making you a fighter to be reckoned with right off the bat.



Oddly enough, that wasn't was I was trying to go for.  I was planning on making him the stereotypical mage that doesn’t get into combat and is always on the side as support.  Usually when I play a spell caster its to enhance their combat ability and all, but this go around I was thinking and I'm ok with being the guy that's in the side of the fight...  ...while my undead minions do my fighting for me... 
Yeah, I have minions.... 
By the by, how many do I get to start out with...  if any???:\...  The oven!!!

So the d8s are freaken awesome, but the BAB wasn't really what I was looking for, and your right, most of the bloodlines are geared towards combat, that's why I don't really get much of what I want from the Vamp bloodline (+1 Charisma at level 9)...

Wait...  I still have spell that will require touch attacks and all...  Hmmm, maybe the higher BAB is what I'd need instead...  Well crap, now I have to think more...  That hurts...

Page 7 be claimed and over run by idiots...


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## Tux the Penguin (Oct 8, 2004)

Well, right now an idea I have is a wizard/psion who is a Summoner/Constructor with the Cerebemancer PrC.

Not sure exactly what I'm going to do, since certain feats (Augment Summoning and its Psionic counterpart) are helpful, and I won't get that many.  I was thinking of an Elan Psion who is a Constructor.

Basically, the character concept I've got is someone like Rydia or Yuna in the FF series: physically weak and not that good in combat, but when she/he (not sure yet) is able to summon some friends... ouchie.

But DnD really isn't set up for that kind of character.  I was thinking of this elemental PrC from the Mini Handbook that gives you an elemental as a familiar (which is kinda what I'm looking for), but that's too permanent.  If it was a sort of "summon up to CR X, x/day", that'd work.  The Constructor allows me to specialize a little more than a summoner, so that's where I'm leaning.

ANy ideas Kell or DMZ?


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## Mad Hatter (Oct 8, 2004)

Tux, you could be a technologist and base your spells on summon monster.  After that, simply upgrade the heck out of them.  That would get you a few strong monsters.  You could equip them if so choose as well.


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## Tux the Penguin (Oct 8, 2004)

Well, I was thinking of basically doing this:

Summoner with Augment Summoning, and then making out a list of specific creatures I summon and their equipment.  I was thinking of a feat called "Summoner's Contract" in which for me to gain another creature to summon, I have to meet and "defeat" it through force or diplomacy.  Sort of how you do it in the Final Fantasy MMORPG.

Also looking at the Unearthed Arcana summoning variants... especially the one that lets you summon as normal actions instead of full-round actions.


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## DemonWolfZero (Oct 8, 2004)

The Constructor used to be overpowered, now it's just powerful.  Of course, its most powerful ability comes at Level 9, so I don't have anything against you taking it (as a member of the "Please don't use broken Psionic combos, you're hurting the name of good Psionicists everywhere" camp).

I DO however, stand firmly against anything involving the Cerebremancer.  The synergy is TOO good.  I can stand the Fist of Zuoken with Monk/PsiWar synergy.  Stuff like that is fine.  But full synergy between two full casters is painful to think of, even if you're giving up your higher level slots for more spells/power per day.

That's my take.

And the name is D *W* Z


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## Kelleris (Oct 8, 2004)

I nixed the Cerebremancer several pages ago, actually, when it was suggested for Thunderbird.

Anyway, I just wanted to tell everyone to drop by the other thread sometime.  You'll be playing with at least one or two of them, so I'd love to see some cross-pollination here.


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## Mad Hatter (Oct 8, 2004)

You make it sound so...dirty.


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## TrevWar (Oct 9, 2004)

Hey Kell, I was just looking at the Libris Mortis new feats preview on the Wizard web site, and I was looking at Corpsecrafter and I was wondering what would happen with the Enchance Undead variant Necromancer ability?  I would assume that Corpsecrafter feat would just give my undead an additional +2 HP/HD and that's it...  I'm thinking I'm stuck with this huh?

I'll be going Wizard Necromancer, its just better.  I want to look at Libris Mortis to see what PrCs there are that might be good to go in.


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## Mad Hatter (Oct 9, 2004)

Here is revised Feiran.


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## TrevWar (Oct 9, 2004)

Hey Kell,
Are you allowing Tieflings as a race?
Are you allowing the Reducing Level Adjustment rules?
With the Skeletal Minion as a Familiar, do I use the stats in the MM, or do I use point buy since its some what a cohort?
Are we able to start with any Arcane Resreach already finished?


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## Kelleris (Oct 9, 2004)

Yeah, and I'd actually prefer you use the Reducing Level Adjustment thing.

You can start with Arcane Research done, but be reasonable about it.  Also remember that every single one has to be cleared with me, per the rules, and I get to decide the level adjustment of whatever you want to add in.

The skeletal cohort has follower point buy, so 16 points.  I don't think I want you to start with any other undead created, though.  There're quite enough cohorts and thralls and trained animals and celestial companions popping around as it is.


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## TrevWar (Oct 9, 2004)

Kell said:
			
		

> Yeah, and I'd actually prefer you use the Reducing Level Adjustment thing.



Sweet.  So...  what?  Do I just start at 3,000 XP short of level 8, or does every one start at level 8 +3,000 XP or do we all just start at level 8???  




			
				Kell said:
			
		

> There're quite enough cohorts and thralls and trained animals and celestial companions popping around as it is.



Hmmmm...  True, very true.  

Ok, with the Skeleton Cohort's 16 points, do I start at base 8s and use the 16 points and gain bonus points for its Charisma going to 1 and its Con and Int becoming non-existant or what?  I'm not really sure what to do with that...




			
				Kell said:
			
		

> You can start with Arcane Research done...  ...remember that every single one has to be cleared with me, per the rules, and I get to decide the level adjustment of whatever you want to add in.



Oh I know, I just wanted to know if I needed to start thinking of a spell to do right now to be ready.


Oh yeah, there was a spell in 2nd edition that I wanted to find out if it has been brought to 3rd edition and if not can we remake it for 3.5?
The spell is Transmute Bone to Steel.



			
				I have no idea what book said:
			
		

> 6th Level Spell
> Transmute Bone to Steel (Alteration, Necromancy) Reversible
> 
> Range: 30 yards
> ...


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## Mad Hatter (Oct 9, 2004)

Ok, here's the modified everything, Kell.  Hopefully this is the last time


----------



## DemonWolfZero (Oct 9, 2004)

And since I just redid a bit of Adinal (3 skill-booster 1st level powers) and spent his miscellaneous gold finally, here's his repost.


----------



## Kelleris (Oct 10, 2004)

I'm going to work with people via IM to make sure their sheets check out, but in the meantime...

@ TrevWar - You'll start 7th level, 3000 shy of your next level.

When you go to spend the cohort's points, you have to but a score of 10 in anything that goes away or gets set automatically to a certain number.  That means you're spending 2 points each on Con, Int, Wis, and Cha automatically.  That leaves you 8 points to spend on Str and Dex.  Don't forget that you're buying base stats with these points, though, so the skeleton template grants a +2 Dex after all is said and done.

As for the _transmute bone to steel_ spell, the real problem is that it grants a substantial benefit with a permanent duration and no expensive components.  There's a spell in _Magic of Faerun_ that does something like this, but it as a pretty short duration.  I don't have the book with me, however.  You could probably use a _permanency_ spell to make the spell permanent, though.  Otherwise, it'll be either a limited duration, a really expensive material component, or an XP cost.


----------



## Mad Hatter (Oct 10, 2004)

Revised copy.  *please be the final... please be the final*


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## Kelleris (Oct 10, 2004)

Inspired by a conversation I'm having with Mad Hatter, I'd like to propose a little contest:

I'm sure at least some of you are curious about what happened to your old characters, and wonder whether or not they are the heroes I mention in the Dromus regional history.  If anyone cares to post what they think happened after the game ended, I'll tell you how close you are.  Keep at it long enough, and you might even get me to tell you how it went!


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## TrevWar (Oct 10, 2004)

Kell said:
			
		

> you have to but a score of 10 in anything that goes away or gets set automatically to a certain number. That means you're spending 2 points each on Con, Int, Wis, and Cha automatically. That leaves you 8 points to spend on Str and Dex



Ehh?




			
				Kell said:
			
		

> As for the transmute bone to steel spell, the real problem is that it grants a substantial benefit with a permanent duration and no expensive components



Its the same with the other Trasmute spells (Metal to wood, mud to rock, & rock to mud).  The main problem with it right now is that its still 2nd edition...  What would it be 3.5?

Hey Kell, when you have a minute of more, could you take a look at this and see what you'd allow in your game?


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## Mad Hatter (Oct 11, 2004)

TrevWar- What Kell means is that since the undead have no CON, INT, WIS, or CHA when their score adjustments are factored in, you have to put a ten in each.  Their score is effectively zero, which is ten lower than the norm. 

Thus, 10-10=0.  As a consequence you have to place a 10 in those scores to get a zero.  Because 10 cost 2 pts in point buy and you need four that leaves you with 8 points to spend on STR and DEX.

Hope that's clearer now.


----------



## Kelleris (Oct 11, 2004)

Jeebus.  TrevWar, you have far, far too much time on your hands.      I'll check all that stuff out on a day where I'm not running on 2.5 hours of sleep, but I'd like your sources for these things before I do.

Mad Hatter pretty much explained the skeleton thing.


----------



## TrevWar (Oct 12, 2004)

I pulled all that info from several books: 
Encyclopedia Arcane - Necromancy, Beyond the Grave (most came from here)
Skill
 - Knowledge Necrology
Spells
 - Animate Animal, Skeleton, Zombie, Wound, Bleeding Wound, Detect Dead, Identify Undead, Invigoration of Undeath, Protection from Undead, Sensory Link, Shadow Horror, Skull Snare, Undead Conduit, Voice of Deathly Whispers, Visage of the Dead, Wall of Bone, 
Feats
 - Augment Undead, Empower Undead
Item
 - Bloodied Onyx

Secret College of Necromancy (Several spells)
Spells
 - Ancient Wisdom, Bllod Golem (which I'm not to hot on, but it looked cool), Cannibalize, Homunculus, Mend Corpse

Undead by AEG (Mostly Spells)
Spells
 - Feign Life, Havrokr's Minor Blessing, Heal Undead, Minor Heal Undead, Mask Undead, Strengthen Bone
Item
 - Amulet of Bone

Complete Guide to Drow (the feat Dual Spell)
Diablo II - Diablerie (a spell)
Forgotten Realms (a few things)

And I found a few more things.  I'm currently reading through "Hollowfaust - City of the Necromancers" for character backround and origins.

And page 8 is mine as well!


----------



## Tux the Penguin (Oct 12, 2004)

Here is Stephen Coldshadow, Kell.

Wizard 5 / Bonded Summoner 3

Hey Trev, get online!


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## Argent Silvermage (Oct 12, 2004)

Work is killing me. I should have Dashan up and ready by noon tomorrow.


----------



## TrevWar (Oct 12, 2004)

Can we take more then 2 flaws???  Please dear God tell me we can take more then 2 flaws!


----------



## Kelleris (Oct 12, 2004)

Thanks for the info Trev.  I see you've been assaulting the peer-to-peer networks.

Sorry to hear you're having such a bad time of it, Argent.  I know the feeling, after this weekend.  Sorry to rush you like this, but I feel like the natives are getting restless.    



> Can we take more then 2 flaws??? Please dear God tell me we can take more then 2 flaws!




HAHAHAHA!!!

*wipes tear from eye*

No.       Seriously, though, 2 is 2 more than anyone else is using anyway.  Dem's dah rules.


----------



## Kelleris (Oct 12, 2004)

Okay, I've done my business with the Rogue's Gallery thread. As for characters... Post 'em if you got 'em! I'll be looking over everyone's character bckgrounds once they're in that thread where I can find them more easily. I think you guys expect me to have more detail at ground-level than I have, though, so I don't know how forceful my suggestions will be there.


----------



## Kelleris (Oct 12, 2004)

Consarnit, Tux!  First I check to make sure your character is okay*, and _then_ you post in the Rogue's Gallery thread.  It's for completed characters only at this point.

Naughty!    

* - I'll look it over later on tonight and post my concerns.


----------



## TrevWar (Oct 12, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> Naughty!



Dirty boy!!!  Dirty, dirty, dirty!


----------



## Kelleris (Oct 13, 2004)

TUX!

Why did you post another time in the RG thread?  Geez!  Now I'm going to have your pointless post cluttering up the Rogue's Gallery Thread _which is supposed to be for finished characters only_.  If you feel the need to tell everyone, put it here or in the other thread.

*That is not what the RG thread is for.*

EDIT:  Hmm... That's odd...  I asked a mod to remove the egregious post, and s/he did, but seems to have gotten a little overzealous.  I can't find your character.      On the plus side, I checked out the Bonded Summoner PrC (turns out I had it from DemonWolfZero), and it looks good.  One thing I did notice earlier, though, was that you had Planar Touchstone set to Elemental Plane of Air.  I was wondering what that did, since I haven't written one up and there isn't one in the _Planar Handbook_ that I'm aware of.  Is it just a note to fill it in with something specific later?


----------



## Tux the Penguin (Oct 13, 2004)

Basically, yes.  I changed it to be tied to "Airhome" which is basically a plane of continents that "float" on the boundry of the elemental plane of air.  My character doens't know, but it is part of the Elemental Plane of Air that was fashion to support mortal life.

What it does... eh, don't really care.  I couldn't think of what else to have it be from.  That, and it helps my summons and my companion by giving him a bonus through stalwart planar companion.

Reposted my character too.


----------



## Kelleris (Oct 13, 2004)

Okay.  Lookin' over your character (just the stats for now):


You seem to be 2 hp over: (4 (1st level) + 10 (4 wizard levels) + 7.5 (3 bonded summoner levels) + 32 (8 levels of +4 Con)) = 54 hp total.
Your BAB should technically be +3 (+2 wizard, +1 bonded summoner).  I'll let you use fractional BAB for the +4 if you care.
Your base Will save should be +7 (+4 Wizard, +3 bonded summoner).
You've spent 26,800 gold on magical items.  You forgot to include the base price of a crossbow in your weapon, and I'm positive that you're over with adding spells to your spellbook.
EDIT: Almost forgot to check skills...      You don't get the skill points for a headband of intellect, so you should only have 77 skill points (7 maxed out skills; 2 wizard/bonded summoner, 4 Int, 1 human).  You have 88 in actual skills, plus 6 in languages, for a total of 94.

Well, that's it so far.


----------



## TrevWar (Oct 13, 2004)

Kell, have you looked over either of the Necromany txt to see what you'd allow?  Ask questions if you have any, you know I'm up for explaining and all.
That and I have another txt for you to look at...


----------



## Kelleris (Oct 13, 2004)

*sigh*

Makin' me work hard, man.  Hard!

How long will you be on?  I'll read it over and post a modified document here later on tonight if you'll be around for a couple of hours.  Otherwise I'll just do it tomorrow afternoon.

And go ahead and post the new one.  I might as well have it.


----------



## Kelleris (Oct 13, 2004)

Bloodied Onyx - No go.  Fast healing scares me.
Just pay normal price for your spellbook, and call it a gem instead.  It doesn't really matter a whole lot what specific form it is along as it quacks like a spellbook.
Amulet of Bone - This is obviously a 3.0 item, considering the lack of 3.5 DR references.  Why don't you dig up something that grants DR and I'll give you a minor price break for only working on undead instead?
Knowledge (necrology) is covered by Knowledge (religion) and the Heal skill, so you don't need it.
Corpsecrafter is from Libris Mortis?  I'd like to add Spell Focus (necromancy) to the prereqs to make it more analogous to Augment Summoning, which does basically the same thing.
No Shadow Weave Magic.  I've already got a complicated enough cosmology and magic system.  I don't really have room for a shadow weave, especially since I'm not even using the weave concept.
Stick with Corpsecrafter instead of Augment Undead.
Undead Mastery is good in concept, but x2 --> x4 is too much.  I would make it x2 --> x3, and maybe not let it stack.  It's pretty powerful.  You can't take it yet, though, so we'll burn that bridge when we come to it.
No Dual Spell.  There are enough spells that don't really care about caster level (enervation springs to mind) to make it broken.
Destruction Retribution, Fell Animate, Bonus Spell, and Twin Spell are all good.
I'm not sure about Transmute Bone to Metal, but I'll think it over and decide sometime before you hit 11th level.
What's with these spells that permanently buff an undead at no cost?  Not gonna happen, unless you give up as much as you gain, or nearly so.  Invigoration of Undead is right out, unless you want to make it a durational spell.  Still pretty powerful in that case, as the major reason for zombies being iffy as undead is the one action per round thing.
Havrokr's Minor Blessing is too weak for the stated level.  Make it 2nd level instead.  Also, why is it granting a sacred bonus, of all things?  That should say profane.
Strengthen Bone is okay, but those should all be enhancement bonuses.
Animate Animal, Animate Skeleton, Animate Zombie, and Skull Snare are all unnecessary, as you will have access to animate dead at this level.  Therefore, I would rather not deal with them.
Ancient Wisdom looks like a Trap the Soul spell at 7 levels lower with no save, range limit, or time limit.  That means no dice.
No blood golem that I'm aware of means no Blood Golem spell.
I would prefer you not use the Homonculus spell, for much the same reason I didn't want to bother with the Animate X spells.
Resist Turning, Bleeding Wound, and Wound are all okay.
Sensory Link is okay, except that you need to add a line stating specifically that you cannot yourself see or hear while using the undead's senses.
I would rather you simply used Nondetection instead of Mask Undead.
Chnage the AC bonus from Bone Armor to an armor bonus, so it doesn't stack with every other spell in existence, and it's okay.
I don't like Call Undead because the monstrous Area of Effect bothers me.  If you really want it, we'll talk, though.
Undead Conduit, Voice of Deathly Whispers, Feigh Life, Visage of the Dead, Absorb Dead Flesh, Shadow Aura, Shadow Horror, Sudden Grave, and Wall of Bone are all okay.
No need for Mend Flesh.  At the very least you can use Negative Energy Ray (from T&B).
I don't like Cannibalize.  Negative energy cannot be used to heal people, it's pure death (literally).  That's just not what it does.
No Infuse Dead Flesh either, for the same reason.  Also, this is another one of those "something for nothing" spells, since your hp total only very rarely matters on the days you animate new corpses.
You can take Boiling Blood if you like, but it sucks.  3 points/caster is less than a fireball on average and you have to touch them.  Plus, it's a Will negates spell.
Touch of the Wraith is way too powerful.  That's an obscene amount of Con damage, and helpless is as good as dead in 95% of battles.  At 8th level, even 2d6+2 is going to drop some foes right out and cripple the rest.  And that's if the make their saves.
You can get the duration boosts you want through arcane research, yes.
Any undead you control from any source count towards the HD limit.  It's not tied to the spell, it's more of a meta-limit.
You can't take Heal Undead and Minor Heal Undead, but I will let you take the Inflict X Wounds spells at the level clerics get them.
I don't think I'm going to let you have Persistent Spell unless you had something particular and important in mind.  Nobody ever lets me take it...
Black Lightning and Greater Chill Touch are okay, though I'd usually use Vampiric Touch over Greater Chill Touch myself.

*yawn*


----------



## DemonWolfZero (Oct 13, 2004)

I was surprised by the sheer amount of positive replies in that post personally.


----------



## Tux the Penguin (Oct 13, 2004)

New and updated... for some reason I thought we were using better averages (rounding up each .5) but I fixed that.

I didn't mean to use fractional BAB, but it really doesn't matter what my BAB is in most cases... that's what Gale and the "Deliver Touch Spells" is for.

I also fixed the gold item issue... I dropped 6k from the Ring of Pro 2 into a Ring of Pro 1.

As for my spells, those were the spells I went through the books and found I wanted... I didn't mean to assume I was taking them all.  I went through and dumped the ones that I really don't want.

I should have 2+4 free spells from first, then 2 for every caster level above that, so 16 free spells (4 third/4 second/8 first).  I have 7 first, 8 second, and 5 third.  Doing the math real quick, I need about 6000 gold to cover all those scrolls, which is fine considering I downgraded the Ring.

Oh, and Matt, I have a "custom" spell I wanted to use, basically for flavor.  I haven't written it out much at all, but here's the gist.

Stephen Sluboreous Slumber
Target: One Willing Creature
Duration: Special
Save: No
SR: No

SSS puts a target creature into a deep slumber in which their bodily functions slow to near nothing and they also stop aging.  This slumber ends when a predetermined event occurs (such as after thirteen days or when there is first snow) or when the character is attacked.

Basically its a 1st level spell that makes hibernation for travel.  It's not exactly a spell that is powerful or does much, other than allow Stephen to travel great distances without having to worry about aging (let Gale grapple him after he is sleeping and then let Gale start trekin' across planes while he sleeps).

What do you think?


----------



## Kelleris (Oct 13, 2004)

*@ Tux - *All of that sounds good so far.  



			
				Tux the Penguin said:
			
		

> Oh, and Kelleris, I have a "custom" spell I wanted to use...




This spell feels like 2nd level though; don't ask me why.  In any case, it shouldn't matter.  Oh, and I assumed it's self only?  Otherwise it's be somewhat higher level, since it does become useful enough to be more than just a flavor thing.

Also, here's a template to use for characters, so we can all have uniform sheets. Just paste the follwoing into a Word document, and do two case-sensitive find and replace operations, one for the letter Z --> B and another for Q --> I:

[Z]Character Name[/Z]

[Q]Gender Race
Class # [of levels]
Alignment[/Q]

[Z]Size:[/Z] M (#', #"; # lbs.)
[Z]HD:[/Z] #d#+#
[Z]HP:[/Z] #
[Z]Initiative:[/Z] +# (# Dex, +# Other)
[Z]Speed:[/Z] # ft. / # ft. (Conditional)
[Z]AC:[/Z] # (+# Dex, +# [Class feature], +# [Item], +# [Item])
[Z]BAB:[/Z] +#/+#
[Z]XP:[/Z] 28,000 / 36,000 for level 9


[Z]Attributes:[/Z]

[Z]Str:[/Z] # (+#) [# pts]
[Z]Dex:[/Z] # (+#) [# pts, +# Levels, +# [Item or Other]]
[Z]Con:[/Z] # (+#) [# pts]
[Z]Int:[/Z] # (+#) [# pts]
[Z]Wis:[/Z] # (+#) [# pts]
[Z]Cha:[/Z] # (+#) [# pts]


[Z]Attacks:[/Z]
[Q]Weapon name[/Q] +#/+# (#d#+#, #-20/x#) (conditional bonuses)

[Q]Attack modifier:[/Q] +# (# BAB, +# [Ability], +# [Other])
[Q]Parry:[/Q] +# (# BAB, +# [Ability], +# [Other])


[Z]Saves:[/Z]

[Z]Fort:[/Z] +[Total bonus] (# base, +# Con, +# [Other Bonuses])
[Z]Ref:[/Z] +[Total bonus] (# base, +# Dex, +# [Other Bonuses])
[Z]Will:[/Z] +[Total bonus] (# base, +# Wis, +# [Other Bonuses])


[Z]Skills:[/Z]

[Q]Skill Name:[/Q] +[total bonus] ([Ranks] C/cc, +# [Ability Mod], +# [Other bonuses])
[Q]Skill Name:[/Q] +[total bonus] ([Ranks] C/cc, +# [Ability Mod], +# [Other bonuses])
[Q]Skill Name:[/Q] +[total bonus] ([Ranks] C/cc, +# [Ability Mod], +# [Other bonuses])


[Z]Feats:[/Z]

Planar Touchstone (campaign bonus)
[Feat] (lvl1)
[Feat] (reason)
[Feat] (reason)
[Feat] (lvl3)
[Feat] (reason)
[Feat] (Lvl6)


[Z]Class Abilities:[/Z]

[Class Ability]
[Class Ability]
[Class Ability]


[Z]Racial Abilities:[/Z]

[Racial Ability]
Planar Touchstone:
- Base Ability
- Higher-order Ability (effect summary) # times/[recharge condition]


[Z]Languages:[/Z]

[Language 1]
[Language 2]
[Language 3]


[Z]Equipment:[/Z]

Weapon #1 (# gp) [# lbs.]
Weapon #2 (# gp) [# lb.]
Armor (# gp) [# lb.]
Shield #2 (# gp) [# lb.]

[Q]Magical Item[/Q] (# gp) [# lb.]
[Q]Magical Item[/Q] (# gp) [# lb.]
[Q]Magical Item[/Q] (# gp) [# lb.]
Mundane Item (# gp) [# lb.]
- Stored Mundane Item (# gp) [# lb.]
- Stored Mundane Item (# gp) [# lb.]
Mundane Item (# gp) [# lb.]

[money remaining]

Carrying # lbs.

[Z]Load:[/Z] light #, medium #, heavy #, lift #, drag #

[Q]Special Item Description:[/Q]



[Z]Description:[/Z]



[Z]Background:[/Z]



[Z]Personality:[/Z]



[Z]Contacts:[/Z] # Information, # Influence, # Skill


----------



## Tux the Penguin (Oct 13, 2004)

Nevermind


----------



## TrevWar (Oct 14, 2004)

Stupid Double Posting!!!  Fine, just fine...

Ok, what could I do to make this post worth while right now...

Uhh, Prince Albert's in the fridge!


----------



## TrevWar (Oct 14, 2004)

I'm still thinking of going straight wizard, I can't find any PrCs that I would consider advantagious to the character design I have in mind, not even in the Libris Mortus.  
I havn't looked throught the minitures handbook yet, Errol said there was a class of some kind in there that dealt or directed units/armies and gave buffs or what not, so that may be a good one.  

The main focus of my character is going to be the summoning of skeletons and enchancing the heaven out of them as much as possible since I suck because I'm so focued on spell casting.   :\ 

I'm not to borken up about what was crossed out, *most* of them were "kind of wants" and "some what useful" things any way.  



			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> Bloodied Onyx - No go. Fast healing scares me



Hmmm, I was planning on useing that for my cohort and maybe one other high HD undead I create later and keeping the price (1,000 gp) on my magic items list, I didn't think it was "that" bad...  




			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> Amulet of Bone - This is obviously a 3.0 item, considering the lack of 3.5 DR references. Why don't you dig up something that grants DR and I'll give you a minor price break for only working on undead instead?



Like what, they already have DR 5/Blugeoning?  I was planning on getting 1, maaaybe 2, of these for my cohort and one other high HD undead.  




			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> Knowledge (necrology) is covered by Knowledge (religion) and the Heal skill



I figured that Knowledge (necrology) was something like that, but with it specifying a Necromancy topic I figured it would be more specific and limited to undead, I don't see this character being a religious man, or even caring much abour religion.  I figured he'd pick up a few things here and there just with the "trade" that he's in, but I saw Knowledge (necrology) as a more focused and charactier specific skill.  That and I just liked the flavor.  




			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> Stick with Corpsecrafter instead of Augment Undead



Is it at all possible for me to take both???




			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> Undead Mastery is good in concept, but x2 --> x4 is too much. I would make it x2 --> x3, and maybe not let it stack. It's pretty powerful. You can't take it yet, though, so we'll burn that bridge when we come to it.



Wait, what?  x2 --> x4 what, undead I can control?  I can already control 4 times my HD, its in the spell.  I can summon 2 times my HD per casting, I can constrol 4 times my HD at one time.  And not stack with what?  What do you mean?  
I know I can't take it yet, but it was one of the feats I looked over and immediatly thought "Oh, well that's a feat I should take."
I was thinking of taking it at 10th, I'm hoping and don't think there will be a reason to get it as soon as possible.




			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> No Dual Spell, enervation springs to mind...



Could we come up with a list and only use the spells on the list?  Honestly, I hadn't even looked at Enervation yet, but I'm some what interested in it now that you mention it...




			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> Animate Animal, Animate Skeleton, Animate Zombie, and Skull Snare are all unnecessary



Can I at least keep Skull Snare for entertainments sake, Animate Animal for tactical and misc. tasks, and Animate Skeleton for reviving a skeleton for a Ancient Wisdom Skull?  
These are mostly here so I don't have to use a 4th level slot to animate 2 skeletons on the floor.  It can be more efficient with these.  Then again if I have a place to hold them I could just carry all the bodies we kill in a day and Animate Dead them at night before I go to sleep, but still, I liked the additional options.  And I was plaing on useing Animate Zombie and just have one zombie at a time to stand by me as guard all the time, but I can always get some one/thing else to do that I guess.  




			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> Invigoration of Undead is right out, unless you want to make it a durational spell. Still pretty powerful in that case



Could make it a 1 round/level thing, but I'm not sure how many zombies I'm going to be useing any way, if any at all.  Could just change it to giving them +10 to there base speed of something.  




			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> Ancient Wisdom looks like a Trap the Soul spell



What if we changed it to "the soul must be willing to return"




			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> Sensory Link is okay, except that you need to add a line stating specifically that you cannot yourself see or hear while using the undead's senses.



I'm not sure what to do with that.  It would be great if I could see from both, right eye view from undead controlled, left eye my view, or something like that.  What about the ability to switch between the two views for the spells duration?




			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> I would rather you simply used Nondetection instead of Mask Undead.



Nondetection is for protection vs. Scrying, which I don't care about.  Mask Undead is protection vs. Detect Undead, Detect Dead, and any other thing that spicifically "looks" at undead.  If some one were to scry on me they would still see my undead cohort.




			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> I don't like Call Undead because the monstrous Area of Effect bothers me. If you really want it, we'll talk, though.



I really want it.  I didn't think there would be that much undead in a 1 mile area.  What if we changed the range of it to something like 250 ft./level or so?  That way it reaches near 1 mile at caster level 21.  




			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> I don't like Cannibalize. Negative energy cannot be used to heal people, it's pure death (literally). That's just not what it does.



Hmmmm, very true...  Crap, I wanted/needed that spell...  Could we change its effect?  Instead of healing me it heals another undead with in 30 ft. of the target undead?  The main reason I liked this spell was it gave me the ability to "sacrifice" (as in Magic the Gathering) my undead to use Destruction Retribution more tactfully.  




			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> Touch of the Wraith is way too powerful. That's an obscene amount of Con damage



Oh wow, "for every two caster levels"...  I missed that part...




			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> I don't think I'm going to let you have Persistent Spell unless you had something particular and important in mind. Nobody ever lets me take it...



I thought I did when you were palying that one Bard character?  Well any way, I mostly want Persistent Spell for the Undead Conduit, Sensory Link, Voice of Deathly Whispers, Feigh Life, Visage of the Dead, Mask Undead, and a couple of other spells for me posing as an undead and my cohort posing as a living person that's in charge (So people will think to attack him first and leave me [the caster] the hell alone cause I can't take any kind of damage [19 HP at level 7, leave me alone...]).




			
				Wolfy said:
			
		

> I was surprised by the sheer amount of positive replies in that post personally.



So was I...  ???     I think he's setting me up for a bigger fall...  Like tossing my character in a prison in the beginning and the arm band they throw on my wrist is permanent and I can no longer use magic...  Yeah, that's what he's doing, well you won't get a way with it you hear, I'm quick to your tricks Mr., and I won't have any of this mamby pamby no casting arm band from the far reaches of your twisted dirty, dirty, dirty mind...  Ok, I'm done...




			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> Z --> B and another for Q --> I



Neat and clever if I do say so...


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## TrevWar (Oct 14, 2004)

Wait, question!


			
				PHB said:
			
		

> Animate Dead
> Necromancy [Evil]
> Level: Clr 3, Death 3, Sor/Wiz 4
> Components: V, S, M
> ...



"25 gp per Hit Die of the undead you intend to animate"
Does that mean *if* I have a gem worth 125 gp I can animate a body that will have 5 HD?
Or does it mean I *have* to have a gem worth 125 gp to get *upto* 5 of the bodies possible HD?

The first one makes more sence to me.

And now I add page 9 to my ever growing army of the undead...
Let me see, 9, that's 25 times 9... is...  5, carry the 4...  plus 18...  22...  and the 5...  This page owes me an Onxy gem worth 225 gp!


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## Argent Silvermage (Oct 14, 2004)

I'm going to have to bow out. The character I want to play is too involved for he to flesh out in a short amount of time. Thanks anyway.


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## Kelleris (Oct 14, 2004)

I will be having two threads going in this setting, Argent.  The next one won't start until the rest of the yahoos in this thread get finished, so you still have a couple of weeks to finish up your character if you would like to play.


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## Argent Silvermage (Oct 14, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> I will be having two threads going in this setting, Argent.  The next one won't start until the rest of the yahoos in this thread get finished, so you still have a couple of weeks to finish up your character if you would like to play.



That's Great. I was bummed about missing out on this wonderful game.


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## DemonWolfZero (Oct 14, 2004)

Good to hear Kelleris, I'm still trying to convince Conundrum that she has the time to post once or twice a day.  She claims she does not.


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## Kelleris (Oct 14, 2004)

Bah!  *shakes fist angrily*

She can manage it!  Or, at least, so I claim...    

Thanks for keeping up with her, though, Demon.


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## TrevWar (Oct 15, 2004)

I still need to look at the Miniatures Handbook


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## TrevWar (Oct 16, 2004)

Hey MK, are you allowing Gestalt Characters from the Unearthed Arcana (page 72-76)?


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## Tux the Penguin (Oct 16, 2004)

Trev, I can answer that one: No.  That variant makes REALLY powerful characters.  Did you even read that section?


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## TrevWar (Oct 16, 2004)

Yeah I read it, and I figured I could at least ask...  Couldn't hurt to ask, that and odds are high I could bring happyness to someones day by getting another funny out burst from MK...   

Oh, what do you think of this, sorry but I can't remember where I found it:

*Zombie Master*
The paths of the necromancer are many, but few are as singlemindedly devoted as that of the Zombie Master. While the true necromancer and many other lords of the dead work with the many varieties of animated corpses and life-beyond-death, the Zombie Master focuses on the simpler-to-control animated corpses of his namesake.
Many arcane necromancers have come to this path, while it remains significantly less common among divine spellcasters who gain access to more powerful undead creations at higher levels.  Some Zombie Masters become so familiar with the undead that they seek the transformation themselves...
*Hit Dice*: d6
*Requirements*
To qualify to become a Zombie Master (ZmbM), a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
*Alignment*: non good
*Spellcasting*: Ability to cast Animate Dead
*Knowledge (undead)*: 8 Ranks
*Heal*: 5 Ranks
*Special*: Must surround self with animated dead for at least one month, never separated from them for the duration.
Class Skills
The Zombie Master’s skills are:
Alchemy (int), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int). 
See Chapter 4: Skills in Core Rulebook I for skill descriptions. 
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.
*Class Features*
All of the following are features of the Zombie Master prestige class.
*Weapon and Armour Proficiency*: The Zombie Master receives no additional training in armour or weapon use.
*Spell Advancement*: Each time the character gains a level of Zombie Master, she gains additional spell slots and casting ability as if going up a level in her original or favoured spell-casting class that meets the class prerequisites.

*Horde (Su)*: The Zombie Master has the ability to control three times his spellcaster level in Hit Dice of undead (instead of the usual limit of twice his spellcaster level).
*Bolster Undead (Su)*: The Zombie Master can bolster undead to prevent turning / rebuking or to cancel a successful turning / rebuking as a negative-energy-channelling cleric of three times his Zombie Master level. This power can be used (three plus charisma modifier) times per day, and is in addition to any other bolstering / rebuking abilities the Zombie Master may have from other classes. These bolstering uses CANNOT be used to control undead or for any other use that requires negative energy channelling.
*Returning Dead (Su)*: Zombies animated by the Zombie Master which later fall in combat can be re-animated with another application of the Animate Dead spell (normally slain undead creatures cannot be re-animated).
*Zombie Doctor (Su)*: Zombie Masters can cast Inflict Wounds spells upon zombies under their control within close range.
*Empower Zombies (Su)*: Zombies created by the Zombie Master can (at the Zombie Master’s choice) be animated with 50% more hit dice than a normal zombie of it’s size, and with a +4 Strength bonus.
*Spontaneous Animation (Su)*: The Zombie Master always has access to the tricks of his trade, being able to spontaneously convert any spell slot or memorized / prepared spell of the same level or higher into an Animate Dead spell.
*Army of Darkness (Su)*: The Zombie Master has the ability at level 5 to control four times his spellcaster level in Hit Dice of undead (superseding the Horde ability).

*Table 1-1: Zombie Master*
Level   BAB   Saves     Special 	Spells/Day
1st        0          2 0 2      Horde, Bolster Undead 		+1 level of existing class
2nd       1          3 0 3      Returning Dead, Zombie Doctor 	+1 level of existing class
3rd        1         3 1 3      Empower Zombies 			+1 level of existing class
4th        2          4 1 4      Spontaneous Animation 		+1 level of existing class
5th        2          4 1 4      Army of Darkness 			+1 level of existing class

This was the type of PrC I've been looking for mostly.  

But I figure we'll need to change this one up just a bit, like its d6 HD to d4s.

I was thinking of moving the "Returning Dead" ability to the 3rd level of the PrC, replacing "Empower Zombie", and change it to a "Revive Undead" (6th level Libris Mortus spell) spell like ability usable a number of time per day equal to my Intelligence modifier.  Revive Undead is more practical and fair (with them losing a HD and all like raise dead for PCs) I think this would be better since "Returning Dead" has no downs sides to the undead coming back again and again as there appears to be no limit to the number of times you can use it on a single undead.  

Looking at Horde and Army of Darkness, the PrC is useing 3rd edition rules, with that in mind, Animate Dead in 3.5 already allows you to control 4 times your HD in undead, so do we change Horde to 5 times HD controlled, and Army of Darkness to 6 times HD controlled?

I'd like to change the name of Zombie Doctor to something "like" Undead Corpsemen.  Get it? 
Corpsman - an enlisted man trained to give first aid and minor medical treatment to the injured
Corpsemen - a Necromantic man trained to give negative energy and minor medical treatment to corpses
Seriously though, I'd prefer to change it to Undead Healer.  

I'd also like to change the name to Undead Master, or even Undead Arbiter, as my main focus in not Zombies, as the only thing in the PrC that did any thing for Zombies specifically was "Empower Zombie" which is now gone.



			
				Libris Mortus said:
			
		

> Revive Undead
> Necromancy [Evil]
> Level: Sor/Wiz 6
> Components: V, S, M
> ...




MK, what do you think of this?  If its ok then I'd like to take my next level in it...


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## Kelleris (Oct 21, 2004)

TrevWar - I've kinda lost track of everything I need to look at for you, between server outages and trying to get this game started.  Please just send me an e-mail at jaberwocky_slayer (at) hotmail (dot) com with everything you want me to look at.

Oh, and, uh...  Tux's right about gestalt characters.  I don't even want to hazard an LA for that one, and more narrowly-focused abilities work better in large games anyway.


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## TrevWar (Oct 23, 2004)

Just to make sure, does my cohort have any money alotted to him to purchase items, or do I have to buy all his stuff with my money???


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## Kelleris (Oct 25, 2004)

They have NPC gear for their level, if they're from the Leadership feat.  Otherwise, it comes out of your pocket.  However, I get to make cohorts, even if you start with them.  How do you think DemonWolfZero wound up with a Loxo Bard, of all things?


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## TrevWar (Oct 25, 2004)

Kell said:
			
		

> How do you think DemonWolfZero wound up with a Loxo Bard, of all things?



I did find that some what funny, especially with his tactics in mind

OMG!  You read and posted within a week of the question!  Are you feeling alright???  

I'm refering to my Skeletal "Cohort" for giving up my familiar ability.  The Unearthed Arcana calls him a cohort so I figured I'd just keep calling him that.  
I take it since I only got
16 points of point buy (animal companions, familiars, followers)
for him instead of
24 points (cohorts and elite NPCS)
that he isn't a true cohort in the sence of game mechanics, but I'm not sure what else to call him other then something like "my skeletal familiar", cause I can't say "my familiar", that just gives rise to constant confusion.  
If he's getting familiar point but stats then I presume he's considered a familiar and I can use spells and the wizard's familiar table on him?

I know you'll be making the cohorts, that balanceing issue of yours has always been like that with cohorts, but I can't really think of to many diffrent ways you can make a humanoid skeleton.


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## Kelleris (Oct 25, 2004)

Punk!  *shakes fist*

It's not terribly clear.  Anyway, I think that it should work as a familiar gold-wise (you pay for everything), since that's the ability that it's replacing.  _Replacing entirely_, so you don't get anything other than what's specifically listed there, so no abilities off the Wizard familiar chart either.

Sorry for the slow replies, people.  A combination of classwork and dealing with the other thread is slowing my down.  Fortunately, once we actually start I'll just have to do my DM thing, and it's a lot easier to find time to do that than to find the energy to reply to Trev's constant questioning and 25-page documents.


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## TrevWar (Oct 25, 2004)

> I think that it should work as a familiar gold-wise, since that's the ability that it's replacing. Replacing entirely, so you don't get anything other than what's specifically listed there



That doesn't make any sense.  If its "Replacing entirely" my familiar ability then he sould get cohort gold and point buy.  I would think it would fall as either:
Cohort gold and point buy with no familiar ability (which seems to be more in the spirit of the game and book), or
No gold with Familiar Point Buy and abilities
But I'm getting none of them...  I feel i'm getting the **** end of the stick here...

P.S. - I'm actually really sorry about that word document.  But I found all that stuff and more and I liked the flavor it could give my character, and I liked some of that stuff in general.  I turned out to be 25 pages before I knoew what happened.  You could look on the bright side and know that it took me a while to get all that into together...  ...and there is still a little more...  ...but I'm nearly done "finding things" I swear!


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## Kelleris (Oct 25, 2004)

Actually, what you're getting is a familiar that's a heck of a lot more powerful in combat and less useful out of it.  Plus, it does kick you in the XP jewels when it dies.  I believe it costs a whopping 100 gold to replace, in fact.  The _Unearthed Arcana_ listing says nothing whatsoever about getting familiar abilities added on top of what's listed, and it explicitly says that you do not gain the ability to summon a familiar when using that variant.  Ergo, replaces completely.

Likewise, it isn't a cohort.  It's pretty obviously modeled on the familiar ability of most wizards, but rejiggered to be substantially more useful in the ways that having a powerful skeleton warrior around can be useful.  It also isn't an independent NPC like a cohort - it has no Int, no will of its own, and you can replace it with a quick ritual at the drop of a hat.  Ergo, no cohort point buy and no cohort gold, since it could hardly have been off adventuring without you before it became attracted to your banner.

I've used the ability variant myself, in exactly the way that I'm having you do it (save that I rolled 3d6 for the stats), and had quite satisfactory results.  That skeleton is a pretty tough customer, believe it or not.

It's not a big deal with the document.  But you have to expect me to take a while to get around to finishing it.  If I have the choice of reading 25 pages of stuff you've dug up or 25 pages of reading that I'll be expected to know tomorrow, you can't expect to win.  It keeps getting pushed down on my "things to do" list, but I'll work my way through it eventually.


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## TrevWar (Oct 25, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> no cohort point buy and no cohort gold, since it could hardly have been off adventuring without you before it became attracted to your banner.



I knew that part, actually I was wondering if later I could construct a cohort in conjunction with the Ancient Wisom spell, but that's one of many questions for another time.
I just feel that I'm being jipped with him as he'll be my only attacking ability.  I don't go into combat at all, I have spells to help him and stay away from enemies.  I don't have any physical stats to hold up in combat any way, that how I wanted to make the character, especially after I thought my cohort would be getting cohort stats.  The basic build of my character is that he sucks on his own, he's weak and slow and just sucks.  That's where his minions come in, and that's all he's got going for him (minions and spells).


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## Mad Hatter (Oct 26, 2004)

Trev, the character is a necromancer wizard.  I'm using 16 pts for my animal companion and it's just fine.  Besides you are focusing on summoning and wizards get good spells.  You aren't for combat.  It'll work out just fine.


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## TrevWar (Oct 26, 2004)

I know, after Errol and I talked for a short while I'm ok with what's what...
I think it will be ok...


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## DemonWolfZero (Oct 26, 2004)

Yarr!  So where be the rest of the crew?  We're missing Zoltrachaon (sp?), Conundrum, Tux, Silvermage, Furryfoot and...erm...I can't remember Richard's screen-name.  Curses!

...

Matey!

Edit:  I claim this page's booty in the name of mine own booty!  Yarr!


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## Mad Hatter (Oct 26, 2004)

Well I want your bootay!  Sorry, DWZ, I had too...


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## Uwohali (Nov 5, 2004)

Ok, so I phase in and phase out.  But now that things have settled down somewhat, I should be able to be here regularly.  So of us, Group 2 is Matt S, Trev, and me.  And of course some other people we don't know.

Tyndra will be up shortly.  Just finishing history.


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## Kelleris (Nov 6, 2004)

Alrighty. I think I'm going to start game 2 on next Thursday. Anybody who has characters in by then is in, and everybody else is... not in.  

That shouldn't be more than 7 people, and will very likely be fewer. We shall see.


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## Thunderbird459 (Nov 7, 2004)

I had two midterms last week, so my workload at the moment is comparatively light. I should have a character ready for Thursday. I won't promise he will have a name but I'll do my best.


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## Kelleris (Nov 7, 2004)

Ah, the eternal hurdle...


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## Kelleris (Nov 10, 2004)

Trevor, I sent you an e-mail about the stuff you sent me a while ago.  Sorry for the delay...

Be you were wondering if I was even still paying attention, huh?


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## Kelleris (Nov 11, 2004)

EDIT:  You know what?  No need to post here for this...


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## Kelleris (Nov 16, 2004)

The second game thread is up, here.


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