# List of monsters confirmed in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes



## Elderbrain (Mar 21, 2018)

(Just skip to page 21 to see the actual listings from the books by Challenge rating, folks! The contents just got leaked...)

NOW EVEN FURTHER UPDATED! (12th Update, with Drow House Captain and our first Ruling Archdevil, Zariel, at a whopping CR 26!!! Also Amnizu , Narzugon, Elder Elementals, Alkilith, and Nabassu!)

This is a list of approximately seventy confirmed monsters in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes. Please report additional ones as they are announced, and I will add them to this OP!

Elder Elementals: Leviathan (yes, I know, already listed, but apparently only one member of a category...)
Gray Render
Corpse Flower
Drow: Matron Mother, Favored Consort, Arachnomancer, Inquisitor, Drow House Captain
Elder Oblex
Cambion: no new stat blocks per se, but adjustments you can make to the MM Cambion stats to create different types of Cambion; includes Abyssal and Infernal variants
Iron Cobra
Meazel
Gnomish Clockwork Constructs (number and names unknown; one believed to be a mechanical frog)
Archdevils: Bael, Geyron, Moloch, Zariel
Devils: Blue Abishai , Black Abishai, Red Abishai, Green Abishai, White Abishai, Amnizu, Narzugon
Demon Lords: Baphomet (Demogorgon, Orcus, Yeenoghu, Zugtomoy, Grat'tz, Jubliex, and Fraz-Ur'blu expected)
Demons: Sibriex, Bulezau, Retriever (technically may be a Construct, but Demon-related), Rutterkin, Alkilith, Nabassu
Shadar-Kai: Gloom Weaver, Shadow Dancer, Soul Monger
Gith: Githyanki Supreme Commander, Githzerai Anarch
Eladrin: Winter Eladrin (Autumn, Spring and Summer likely)
Trolls: Dire, Spirit
Yugoloths: Marraenoloth, Canoloth, Dergholoth
Elemental Mrymidons: Air, Earth, Fire, Water 
Undead: Nightwalker, Boneclaw, Allip, Vampiric Mist (Skull Lord likely based on picture on alternate cover)
Duergar: Soulblade, Xarrorn, Hammerer, Screamer, Stone Guard, Warlord
Ogre: Battering Ram, Bolt Thrower (yeah, I know, weird names)
Berbelang
Giff (the hippo people from Spelljammer)
Cadaver Collector
Marut
Phoenix
Nagpa
Astral Dreadnought
Bahalanoth
Skulk
Elder Tempest
Frost Salamander
Tortles: Tortle and Tortle Druid
Bronze Scout
Choker
Eidolon: Eidolon and Eidolon Sacred Statue
Star Spawn: Hulk, Seer, and Mangler
"The Wretched", "The Lonely" and "The Lost" - There's a reference to an "Abyssal Wretch" in the Sibirex stat block, but at least "The Lonely" and "The Wretched" are confirmed as Sorrowsworn - whatever that means in this edition.

I will edit this post periodically as I get more info!


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## MechaTarrasque (Mar 21, 2018)

The latest issue of Dragon had the marut (and name dropped the Inevitables).


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## Demetrios1453 (Mar 21, 2018)

Elderbrain said:


> This is a list of confirmed monsters in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes. Please add more as they are announced!
> 
> So far, we've seen or heard about (in no particular order): Moloch (Archdevil), Geyron (Archdevil), Sibriex (demon), the Wretched (demon), Astral Dreadnought, Leviatan, Eidolon, Giff, Drow Matron Mother, Drow Favored Consort, Drow Arachnomancer, new Cambions, Eladrin (but type not confirmed, i.e. 2e or 4e version), and allegedly all the Lords of the Nine (Archdevils).
> Might be more, but my memory's not that good... please help if I missed anything!



Drow inquisitors were in the list of drow types in the book that Mearls mentioned...


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## SuperTD (Mar 21, 2018)

Chris Perkins confirmed the Balhannoth on Dice, Camera Action! on Tuesday.


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## dave2008 (Mar 21, 2018)

Elderbrain said:


> T...and allegedly all the Lords of the Nine (Archdevils).




I've not seen all the nine confirmed.  I would be surprised if we got them all, but maybe I'm wrong.


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## gyor (Mar 21, 2018)

We also know we are getting Eldarin and Shadar Kai.  I don't know which ones,  but I'd be shocked if Ghaele aren't in for Eldarin,  same with Sorrowsworn for Shadar Kai.


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## Demetrios1453 (Mar 22, 2018)

gyor said:


> We also know we are getting Eldarin and Shadar Kai.  I don't know which ones,  but I'd be shocked if Ghaele aren't in for Eldarin,  same with Sorrowsworn for Shadar Kai.




I have a feeling we'll basically get the whole slate of 2e/3.x eladrin, so 6 - 7 depending on how they go (5 types were common to both editions, and each edition had one type not seen in the other). If we don't get the lot, I'm thinking we're most likely to see the coure eladrin, simply because, whether they classify the "greater" eladrin as fey or celestials in this edition, they would be a very useful choice for summon spells (which is also why I think we may very well see the lantern archon as well)...


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 22, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> I've not seen all the nine confirmed.  I would be surprised if we got them all, but maybe I'm wrong.




They were confirmed right off the bat.


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## Demetrios1453 (Mar 22, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> They were confirmed right off the bat.




While I'm not seeing anywhere that I've looked that all ten Lords of the Nine (remember, Phlegethos has co-rulers) are _confirmed_ to be given stat blocks in the book, it is heavily implied. We know we are getting Archdevils, but as far as I've seen, only Geryon and Moloch (who are the two big ex-lords) have thus far been confirmed. However, the list of tiefling subraces mentioned in the first post in the main MtoF thread ( http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?4908-Coming-in-May-Mordenkainen-s-Tome-of-Foes!&page=8 ) does list all nine current non-Asmodeus ruling lords as subrace progenitors, which does indicate they will all be fully detailed...

If I have missed something, though, please share any links. I'd be very happy knowing that they are all 100% confirmed.


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## gyor (Mar 22, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> I have a feeling we'll basically get the whole slate of 2e/3.x eladrin, so 6 - 7 depending on how they go (5 types were common to both editions, and each edition had one type not seen in the other). If we don't get the lot, I'm thinking we're most likely to see the coure eladrin, simply because, whether they classify the "greater" eladrin as fey or celestials in this edition, they would be a very useful choice for summon spells (which is also why I think we may very well see the lantern archon as well)...




 My guess is the list is Ghaele,  Bralani,  Coure,  Firre,  and Tulani.


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## dave2008 (Mar 22, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> They were confirmed right off the bat.




I must have missed that.  Do you have a link?


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 22, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> I must have missed that.  Do you have a link?




The very first anouncment stream for it. When they were talking about monsters in the book. They said the Archdevils would be in the book. No link cause I can't remember the exact timestamp.


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## phantomK9 (Mar 22, 2018)

SuperTD said:


> Chris Perkins confirmed the Balhannoth on Dice, Camera Action! on Tuesday.




Yeah, confirmed in a big way, nearly getting a TPK.....!!


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## dave2008 (Mar 22, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> The very first anouncment stream for it. When they were talking about monsters in the book. They said the Archdevils would be in the book. No link cause I can't remember the exact timestamp.




Thank you for the clarification!  Yes, I basically remember that.  I took that statement to mean that there will be Archdevils in it, not that there will be all of them in it.  Also, did they say Archdevils or Archdukes, I can't remember?  To me that was not confirmation that all of the nine / ten will be in it.

I think it is unlikely all of the nine will be in it for the simple reason it would tilt the balance of the book to much to a BoVD, instead of ToF


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## MechaTarrasque (Mar 22, 2018)

Got to save a few demon lords and archdevils for future AP's.  I enjoyed OotA, but I originally bought it for the demon lord stats.


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 22, 2018)

MechaTarrasque said:


> Got to save a few demon lords and archdevils for future AP's.  I enjoyed OotA, but I originally bought it for the demon lord stats.




I think the Demon Lords are being reprinted here. Comments about the book have hinted at it.


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## MechaTarrasque (Mar 22, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> I think the Demon Lords are being reprinted here. Comments about the book have hinted at it.




I know some people will complain about it, but I would welcome having all the AP's big bads in one place (easier than digging through the pile).


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 22, 2018)

The newest D&D Beyond Video just confirmed that the Demon Lords are being reprinted. Also when they bring up the archdevils they do indeed say a number of them. So all of them may indeed not be in. I guess I could do without Levitus if they drop a few.


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## gyor (Mar 22, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> The newest D&D Beyond Video just confirmed that the Demon Lords are being reprinted. Also when they bring up the archdevils they do indeed say a number of them. So all of them may indeed not be in. I guess I could do without Levitus if they drop a few.




 Asmodeaus is the one most likely not included as he is a God.


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## dave2008 (Mar 23, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> They were confirmed right off the bat.




In the new D&D Beyond video Crawford says:  "...so we have statistics _*for a number of *_arch devils"

Emphasis mine.  That seems to suggest that we are not getting them all.  Of course we could get all of the nine, and just not all of the arch devils.


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## Azzy (Mar 23, 2018)

gyor said:


> Asmodeaus is the one most likely not included as he is a God.




Technically, most of the Archdevils and Demon Lords have been considered deities since 1e's _Deities & Demigods_.


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## gyor (Mar 23, 2018)

Azzy said:


> Technically, most of the Archdevils and Demon Lords have been considered deities since 1e's _Deities & Demigods_.




 I mean Greater Gods, Asmodeaus isn't a demigod or quasigod,  but a full Greater God.


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## Demetrios1453 (Mar 23, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> In the new D&D Beyond video Crawford says:  "...so we have statistics _*for a number of *_arch devils"
> 
> Emphasis mine.  That seems to suggest that we are not getting them all.  Of course we could get all of the nine, and just not all of the arch devils.




Then he goes on to say that if you wanted to pit the demon princes and the archdevils against each other, you can have them "all in one book", which just muddies the waters further...

If they do exclude some of the archdevils, what criteria would they use to separate those who get in and those who are left out? The only obvious one is to leave out Asmodeus since he's now something more than an archdevil, but that sill leaves 9 more layer rulers plus the two non-rulers we already know are in the book (Geryon and Moloch). But if they are going to reprint the eight demon princes from OotA, then printing 11 - 12 archdevils really isn't that extravagant. I do worry about how much real estate all these will take out of the page total for the bestiary section though, since, if the OotA stat blocks are anything to go by, all the demon princes and archdevils will eat up two pages each. Unless they somehow shrink that package, we're talking about 40 pages or more (out of the 130 or so in the bestiary) dedicated solely to them. And that if they don't add in a further demon prince or two like Pazuzu or Kostchtchie...

EDIT. Thinking on it, they could skip Levistus as well, since he's pretty well inaccessible within his huge block of ice...


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 23, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> In the new D&D Beyond video Crawford says:  "...so we have statistics _*for a number of *_arch devils"
> 
> Emphasis mine.  That seems to suggest that we are not getting them all.  Of course we could get all of the nine, and just not all of the arch devils.




Yeah I just commented on that a short bit ago.

For fun I decided to look at all the Arch Devils in the first 2 monster manuals. As these are the ones with the best chance of making it in.

MM1
Asmodeus (King of Hell)
Baalzebul (Archduke)
Dispater (Archduke)
Geryon (Archduke)

MM2
Amon (Duke)
Bael (Duke)
Belial (Archduke)
Glasya (Princess of Hell)
Hutijin (Duke)
Mammon (Archduke)
Mephistopheles (Archduke)
Moloch (Quasi Archduke as he is a viceroy of Baalzebul ruling the 6th layer in Baalzebul's name.) 
Titivilus (Duke)


Over the editions there have been some changes. Geryon, Moloch and Amon are deposed now. Glasya having replaced Moloch as Archduke, with the new devil Levistus replacing Geryon. Zariel was introduced as the old ruler of the 1st layer in order to be replaced by the pit fiend Bel, but Bel himself was re replaced as Archduke by Zariel in 5e. Belial also gave co rulership to his daughter.

Anyway I would like all the Archdukes to make it in. We know the deposed archdukes are in so I hope we get all the current Archdukes.


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## dave2008 (Mar 23, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Then he goes on to say that if you wanted to pit the demon princes and the archdevils against each other, you can have them "all in one book", which just muddies the waters further...




Well, it is not like OotA provided stats for ALL of the demon lords.  They didn't even get all of the 1e MM1 & MM2 lords and princes.

But, since there will be at least 8 demon lords. It seems we might get most of the nine.


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## dave2008 (Mar 23, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> Anyway I would like all the Archdukes to make it in. We know the deposed archdukes are in so I hope we get all the current Archdukes.




Me too


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## Sword of Spirit (Mar 23, 2018)

It would be a really silly thing to not put all of the nine in. With as much as we already know or suspect is going in, that would mean intentionally holding back monsters to get you to buy a future product. So far 5e has done a pretty good job of *not* pulling nonsense like that. Take the MM entries for the demons and devils. They gave us a pretty complete picture of the classic hierarchies, the same as they did in 2e when the monster entry was "Baatezu", and then had a similarly complete list in a single product. Sure, they still publish obscure ones in later products, but nothing like the fail that was 3e, where they didn't even include manes. 

Now, they can still do better. Abishai should have been in, and they dropped the ball on the yugoloths. But my money is on all of the Lords of the Nine, plus a smattering of some other prominent ones.


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## Irennan (Mar 23, 2018)

gyor said:


> I mean Greater Gods, Asmodeaus isn't a demigod or quasigod,  but a full Greater God.




No longer. He kept his acquired divinity, but lost much power when Azuth broke free. The MM says that he's on par with a lesser god.


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## Demetrios1453 (Mar 23, 2018)

Sword of Spirit said:


> It would be a really silly thing to not put all of the nine in. With as much as we already know or suspect is going in, that would mean intentionally holding back monsters to get you to buy a future product. So far 5e has done a pretty good job of *not* pulling nonsense like that. Take the MM entries for the demons and devils. They gave us a pretty complete picture of the classic hierarchies, the same as they did in 2e when the monster entry was "Baatezu", and then had a similarly complete list in a single product. Sure, they still publish obscure ones in later products, but nothing like the fail that was 3e, where they didn't even include manes.
> 
> Now, they can still do better. Abishai should have been in, and they dropped the ball on the yugoloths. But my money is on all of the Lords of the Nine, plus a smattering of some other prominent ones.




Thinking more on it, I think you're probably right in your reasoning when it comes to the archdevils. Anyway, we know that the eight demon princes from OotA are going to be in, so if they wanted to put in at minimum a similar number of archdevils, well, they might as well go for all of the rulers and ex-rulers, as that is only a handful more.

On a slightly different subject, it's interesting that Crawford said we'd be seeing mid-to-high CR yugoloths. But, interestingly, the MM already has most of those in the nycoloth, arcanaloth, and ultroloth. So, presumably we'll see the baernoloths and a named yugoloth or two like the General of Gehenna...


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 23, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Thinking more on it, I think you're probably right in your reasoning when it comes to the archdevils. Anyway, we know that the eight demon princes from OotA are going to be in, so if they wanted to put in at minimum a similar number of archdevils, well, they might as well go for all of the rulers and ex-rulers, as that is only a handful more.
> 
> On a slightly different subject, it's interesting that Crawford said we'd be seeing mid-to-high CR yugoloths. But, interestingly, the MM already has most of those in the nycoloth, arcanaloth, and ultroloth. So, presumably we'll see the baernoloths and a named yugoloth or two like the General of Gehenna...




Maybe we will get an Elite Ultroloth. Also I assume stuff like the Piscoloth and the Yagnoloth. Also going to hope for the Oinoloth Anthraxus. Don't know if I want the General, guy is pretty much the most mysterious fiend I can think of. I don't think he has ever been depicted or stated.


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## Azzy (Mar 23, 2018)

Irennan said:


> No longer. He kept his acquired divinity, but lost much power when Azuth broke free. The MM says that he's on par with a lesser god.




Ah, so he's back to where he started, then?


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## Demetrios1453 (Mar 23, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> Maybe we will get an Elite Ultroloth. Also I assume stuff like the Piscoloth and the Yagnoloth. Also going to hope for the Oinoloth Anthraxus. Don't know if I want the General, guy is pretty much the most mysterious fiend I can think of. I don't think he has ever been depicted or stated.




Hmm, after checking out 3.x yugoloth CRs, it does seem that the piscoloths and yagnoloths are indeed more mid-tier. When I had made my previous post, I was thinking they were much lower in power level...


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 23, 2018)

Azzy said:


> Ah, so he's back to where he started, then?




No he is still more powerful then he used to be. As he is a god still.

It's mainly seems to be a side effect of how 5e wants to present the stages of Godhood.

Lesser God. Dwells in the Planes and can meet and be affected by mortals.
Greater god. Is out of Mortal Reach and can't directly effect or be affected by mortals except in the cases of manifested avatars around the power of lesser gods. (But whose destruction has no effect on the god itself.) 

They wanted to keep Asmodeus a lesser god so that people could interact with him.


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## Azzy (Mar 23, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> No he is still more powerful then he used to be. As he is a god still.
> 
> It's mainly seems to be a side effect of how 5e wants to present the stages of Godhood.
> 
> ...




Back in 1e AD&D, the _Deities & Demigods_ tome considered Demogorgon, Juiblex, Orcus, Lolth, Yeenoghu, Asmodeus, Baalzebul, Dispater, Geryon, Bahamut, Tiamat, the various Elemental Princes of Evil, Ssendam, & Ygorl to be lesser gods. (This was prior to the release of the _Monster Manual II_, so I'd assume the same would extend to the equivalent beings therein.)


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## Sword of Spirit (Mar 23, 2018)

5e divine rankings are an inconsistent mess.

The DMG is vague about the nature of greater deities (or apparently it's just beyond my comprehension!) So vague that I wondered which deities were even going to qualify. 

When it comes to lesser deities, they give examples of two deities that were previously lesser deities, and one that was a demigod.

They also don't address the "divine" demigods of previous editions, instead using "demigod" to refer to the literally correct half-gods, but saying they can't hear prayers and such. So maybe they are just consolidating previous edition demigods into lesser deities for simplicity? 

The MM gives us more information by calling out the rank of a few deities. Magubliyet is a Greater Deity--so they are (or at least include) previous edition greater deities. Kurtulmak is in as a lesser deity.

Okay, so it sounds like if something was a greater deity in the past, it is a greater deity in 5e, and everything else is a lesser deity, right?

Except - not.

Many of the arch-fiends were also considered deities, but they seem to have backed off of that, only attributing that to Asmodeus. Same thing with arch-fey. (Oh wait, forget about the fey. The MM unicorn entry speaks of fey deities. Titania, Oberon, the Queen of Air and Darkness, deities or not deities? Nobody knows.)

I can't remember where, but I know there is mention made of other previous demigods being downgraded to something completely non-divine.

Okay, I can live with that. Deities are one thing, but there are other powerful beings that can be super powerful without being deities, and they don't grant spells, they just make warlocks. Cool, that gives us some variety and distinction in the super beings. (Except, who are these fey gods???)

This Volo's Guide to Monsters book is cool. I can see why it's so popular. Wait a minute, Raxivort is a demigod _who can hear prayers_, but who is _less powerful than_ the demon prince Grazz't. So now we have real demigods again, and yet non-divine arch-fiends that are more powerful than them.

I've got my own working model, but I really don't know what's actually going on in the heads of our D&D pantheon of Mearls, Crawford, Perkins, and the rest. It sounds like it might be something awesome, but there are clearly discrepancies and they need to *explain how it's meant to be understood.* It doesn't do us any good if the assumptions behind it all only exist in their greater designer minds, incomprehensible to us mortals.


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## Elderbrain (Mar 23, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> I've not seen all the nine confirmed.  I would be surprised if we got them all, but maybe I'm wrong.




Sadly, in the D&D Beyond article/video "Infernal options in MTOF" it states that SOME of the Archdevils get stats, not ALL...


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## Elderbrain (Mar 23, 2018)

Sword of Spirit said:


> 5e divine rankings are an inconsistent mess.
> 
> The DMG is vague about the nature of greater deities (or apparently it's just beyond my comprehension!) So vague that I wondered which deities were even going to qualify.
> 
> ...




My understanding from reading the DMG text was this: Quasi-deities are semi-divine but not actual gods, like Hercules during his mortal life or like a Empyrean. These beings don't hear or answer prayers, grant Cleric spells, and are un-divine enough to be allowed to enter Sigil. Lesser deities are fully divine, grant Cleric spells and have realms, but have material bodies that can be "killed" anywhere, and if the death happens on the beings' home plane it's real. Tiamat is an example - she gets "killed" at the end of Rise of Tiamat, but since her death happens in Faerun, not the Nine Hells, she's effectively just banished. Greater gods don't have vunerable material bodies - they can form bodies equivalent to those of a Lesser god, but killing the body doesn't harm the deity, even on its home plane. Only another Greater god or perhaps a mortal armed with an Artifact could cause its death - or special circumstances, in the case of certain Greater gods like Odin. Example: Zeus, Odin, Re, and other pantheon leaders.

I will have to re-read the VGTM text about Raxivort - his ability to hear prayers may be an exception to the rule. Some beings who are not gods can hear mortal entreaties, too, such as the Demon lord Pazzuzu (known as Pazrael in Planescape), who to my knowledge has never been defined as a god.


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## Elderbrain (Mar 23, 2018)

Which Archdevils are you hoping for? I hope we get Mephistopeles, Dispater, Glasya, Zariel, and Asmodeus (yes, he's a god, but they stated up Tiamat, and he's in the same tier, Lesser god.) If we don't get Asmodeus I want Belial and his daughter Fierna, who are co-rulers of a layer.


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## Elderbrain (Mar 23, 2018)

Have Nagpa been mentioned yet? They're in but I forgot about them.


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 23, 2018)

Elderbrain said:


> Have Nagpa been mentioned yet? They're in but I forgot about them.



Yeah we even got a preview of their art.



Elderbrain said:


> Sadly, in the D&D Beyond article/video "Infernal options in MTOF" it states that SOME of the Archdevils get stats, not ALL...




Archdevils also include guys like Titivulus, Hutijin, Amon and Bael. 

If I were to lose any I think Levistus could be dropped with little problem. Guy is trapped in a glacier anyway


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## dave2008 (Mar 23, 2018)

Elderbrain said:


> Sadly, in the D&D Beyond article/video "Infernal options in MTOF" it states that SOME of the Archdevils get stats, not ALL...




However, there are more archdevils than the nine.  So you could have all of the nine, and only some of the archdevils.  Not likely, but possible.


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## Demetrios1453 (Mar 24, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> However, there are more archdevils than the nine.  So you could have all of the nine, and only some of the archdevils.  Not likely, but possible.




The more I think about it though, I'm thinking we're going to see all ten Lords of the Nine, plus our two former lords, with the possible exceptions of Asmodeus (now too powerful to be statted as a normal archdevil) and Levistus (being trapped in his block of ice). We're getting eight demon princes at least (and maybe more, as it's not been stated that we will get _only_ those that appeared in OotA), so 10 - 12 archdevils aren't an excessive amount in comparison. Plus, with archdevils, there's a reasonable cut-off point since there are only nine layers of Hell to have rulers compared to the much larger number of both layers and princes in the Abyss. As you said, since we are only getting "some" archdevils, the "some" we _aren't_ getting seems likely to me to refer to the various lower level Dukes and so on...


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## Elderbrain (Mar 25, 2018)

Add Shemeska the Marauder stat block as being in the book.


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 25, 2018)

Elderbrain said:


> Add Shemeska the Marauder stat block as being in the book.




Was this confirmed. I heard she was going to have notes in the book. But is she in it herself.


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## Parmandur (Mar 25, 2018)

One of the D&D Beyond videos they've done in the lead up to MToF was about Tiamat: I'll wager her statblock from Rise of Tiamat gets reprinted.


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## Sword of Spirit (Mar 26, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> One of the D&D Beyond videos they've done in the lead up to MToF was about Tiamat: I'll wager her statblock from Rise of Tiamat gets reprinted.




Didn't they say no gods in this book?

(I'd love it they do include her. I want the stats but don't plan on buying Rise of Tiamat.)


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## Demetrios1453 (Mar 27, 2018)

Today's Mordenkainen's Mayhem featured a Githzerai Anarch (CR 16) vs a Githyanki Supreme Commander (CR 14).


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## Elderbrain (Mar 29, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> Was this confirmed. I heard she was going to have notes in the book. But is she in it herself.




Fair point - I may have assumed too much. Hope not!


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## Elderbrain (Mar 29, 2018)

Sword of Spirit said:


> Didn't they say no gods in this book?
> 
> (I'd love it they do include her. I want the stats but don't plan on buying Rise of Tiamat.)




Yes, me too, with her alignment corrected - she is not Chaotic Evil! Be a good place to add Bahamat, her good counterpart. I also want Asmodeus, who is described as having "the power of a lesser god", however you want to interpret that.


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## Sword of Spirit (Mar 30, 2018)

Elderbrain said:


> Yes, me too, with her alignment corrected - she is not Chaotic Evil!




They made her CE in Rise of Tiamat? Surely that must have been a typo.


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 30, 2018)

Sword of Spirit said:


> They made her CE in Rise of Tiamat? Surely that must have been a typo.




It's a confirmed typo.


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## Quickleaf (Mar 30, 2018)

According to Jeremy Crawford's latest video, 1:05, the demon lords from _Out of the Abyss_ are being re-printed in _Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes_.


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## MonsterEnvy (Apr 2, 2018)

Drow Matron Mother is CR 20.

Also the Nightwalker is also confirmed and also CR 20.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Apr 3, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> Drow Matron Mother is CR 20.
> 
> Also the Nightwalker is also confirmed and also CR 20.




Wow on that Matron Mother CR. I had expected something around 15 or 16, not 20, especially after Volo's had the CRs for the Elder Brain and Yuan-ti Anathema somewhat lower than I expected...

Retrievers and Allips will be in as well, since they also made appearances in Mordenkainen's Mayhem...


----------



## Irennan (Apr 3, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> Drow Matron Mother is CR 20.
> 
> Also the Nightwalker is also confirmed and also CR 20.




Where did they confirm this?


----------



## dave2008 (Apr 3, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> Drow Matron Mother is CR 20.
> 
> Also the Nightwalker is also confirmed and also CR 20.




That is higher than I expected for both, but definitely the Matron Mother


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Apr 3, 2018)

Irennan said:


> Where did they confirm this?




In today's Mordenkainen's Mayhem.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Apr 3, 2018)

The Matron Mother being CR 20 might explain how the Drow can seemingly hold their own against Illithids, Beholders, Aboleths and other Underdark empires.  Even though I was sure it was also population numbers the Drow had over many of those others.


----------



## Sword of Spirit (Apr 3, 2018)

I really don’t like it when new monster power levels don’t make sense compared to already published monsters. CR 20? That beats liches, most of the Princes of Elemental Evil, and probably some arch-fiends. Will we get revised versions of previous monsters, or are we just going to be expected to try to make it fit in our own minds?

If they want to revise monster power levels, then they need to actually revise them, and not have all the iconic high level monsters that were published first be left as weaker than newer monsters that should be the weaker ones.


----------



## dave2008 (Apr 3, 2018)

Sword of Spirit said:


> I really don’t like it when new monster power levels don’t make sense compared to already published monsters. CR 20? That beats liches, most of the Princes of Elemental Evil, and probably some arch-fiends. Will we get revised versions of previous monsters, or are we just going to be expected to try to make it fit in our own minds?




I agree with your thought, but you have the details a bit off:

1) Liches are CR 21 to start (Acererak is CR 23)
2) Pit Fiends are CR 20, so any archfiends are likely to be higher.


----------



## gyor (Apr 3, 2018)

I think the Matron Mother is intended for Great houses and other powerful Priestesses for lesser/minor houses I'd use Drow Priestess from the MM. 

 Menzoberranzan has 8 Matron Mothers on it's ruling council alone,  and that isn't the only powerful house in the city. Still imagine 8 CR 20 Matron Mothers. 

 And that is one Drow city.


----------



## Irennan (Apr 3, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> In today's Mordenkainen's Mayhem.




Thank you


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Apr 4, 2018)

Today's Lore You Should Know confirms the Giff (definitively with a hard "g") are in, as are the Star Spawn.

And they definitely stated that _not_ all of the Archdevils (as in those Archdevils who rule or previously ruled layers) will be fully statted up. The only one they (re-) confirmed would be in is Moloch, although they did go on about Mephistopheles quite a bit...


----------



## Sword of Spirit (Apr 4, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> I agree with your thought, but you have the details a bit off:
> 
> 1) Liches are CR 21 to start (Acererak is CR 23)
> 2) Pit Fiends are CR 20, so any archfiends are likely to be higher.




Good catch. I was misremembering the CR 18 from the "devolved" type demilich. Not quite as bad with that example, but still concerned with the possible trend.


----------



## dave2008 (Apr 4, 2018)

Sword of Spirit said:


> Good catch. I was misremembering the CR 18 from the "devolved" type demilich. Not quite as bad with that example, but still concerned with the possible trend.




My concern is with the Matron Mother.  A 20th lvl PC doesn't get anywhere near that CR so I am very curious how they are getting her that high.


----------



## MechaTarrasque (Apr 4, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> My concern is with the Matron Mother.  A 20th lvl PC doesn't get anywhere near that CR so I am very curious how they are getting her that high.




I wonder if the MM will be some kind of demon-infused drow (kind of like a lich, but becoming part demon instead of undead).  Alternatively, I suppose it could involve some Lolth-specific epic boons that would be hard for even evil PC's to get.

Edit:  I got this idea from the Limitless Adventures monster book (from Kickstarter) that had a "lich" that was created when a wizard purposely turns him/herself into an aberration instead of an undead.  "Fiend" also seemed like a good plan if your goal (as a caster) was extended life and some in-built defensive abilities (so you can spend more of your magic on boosting your offensive CR).


----------



## Parmandur (Apr 4, 2018)

MechaTarrasque said:


> I wonder if the MM will be some kind of demon-infused drow (kind of like a lich, but becoming part demon instead of undead).  Alternatively, I suppose it could involve some Lolth-specific epic boons that would be hard for even evil PC's to get.



Or both. One of their prime design mandates for this book was to make high CR monsters: having some that can be negotiated with seems like a good decision.


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Apr 4, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> And they definitely stated that _not_ all of the Archdevils (as in those Archdevils who rule or previously ruled layers) will be fully statted up. The only one they (re-) confirmed would be in is Moloch, although they did go on about Mephistopheles quite a bit...




On the Archdevils that I would give up If I had a choice. This is order from most willing to least willing to drop. (Not counting Geryon and Moloch as they are confirmed to be in already.) 

Levitus, Fierna, Belial, Glasya, Dispater, Mammon, Asmodeus, Zariel, Mephstopheles, Baalzebul.  

But I would only really be willing to give up the first three or four if I had too, any more then that and I would just drop them all from the book.


----------



## gyor (Apr 5, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> On the Archdevils that I would give up If I had a choice. This is order from most willing to least willing to drop. (Not counting Geryon and Moloch as they are confirmed to be in already.)
> 
> Levitus, Fierna, Belial, Glasya, Dispater, Mammon, Asmodeus, Zariel, Mephstopheles, Baalzebul.
> 
> But I would only really be willing to give up the first three or four if I had too, any more then that and I would just drop them all from the book.




 I'd be fine with them dropping Asmodeus, Levitus, Belial, Mammon, Baalzebul, Dispater in that order, but I really want Fierna, Glaysa, Zariel, Mephstopheles in that order of priority.


----------



## GarrettKP (Apr 5, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> My concern is with the Matron Mother.  A 20th lvl PC doesn't get anywhere near that CR so I am very curious how they are getting her that high.




It should be noted we actually have some info on one Matron Mother in Out of the Abyss. Yes, it is Matron Baenre so she is probably a bit stronger than the MM presented in Tome of Foes, but in Out of the Abyss Baenre could cast ANY cleric spell at will. Including 9th level spells!


----------



## dave2008 (Apr 5, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> It should be noted we actually have some info on one Matron Mother in Out of the Abyss. Yes, it is Matron Baenre so she is probably a bit stronger than the MM presented in Tome of Foes, but in Out of the Abyss Baenre could cast ANY cleric spell at will. Including 9th level spells!




Yikes!  That is seriously powerful.


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Apr 5, 2018)

She was presented as a chosen there. And still used the normal Cleric of Lolth statblock with some boosts. The new Drow Matron Mother stats are likely how she would have actually been stated.


----------



## gyor (Apr 6, 2018)

If your talking about Yvonne I'd stat her out as a Divine Soul instead of a cleric after reading Hero.


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Apr 6, 2018)

gyor said:


> If your talking about Yvonne I'd stat her out as a Divine Soul instead of a cleric after reading Hero.




No Quenthal. I would say Out of the Abyss made Quenthal seem stronger then she actually is.


----------



## GarrettKP (Apr 6, 2018)

Slightly off topic but Kate Welch just confirmed on Nathan Stewarts Fireside Chat that there are 3 hardcovers coming out this fall instead of 2!


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Apr 6, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> Slightly off topic but Kate Welch just confirmed on Nathan Stewarts Fireside Chat that there are 3 hardcovers coming out this fall instead of 2!



Ah, our mysterious fourth 2018 book that Mearls (I think) mentioned a while back that they couldn't talk about...


----------



## Parmandur (Apr 6, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> Slightly off topic but Kate Welch just confirmed on Nathan Stewarts Fireside Chat that there are 3 hardcovers coming out this fall instead of 2!



My money is on something really wild, like "Star Frontiers" or "Magic: the Gathering," but that is genuinely exciting whatever it turns out to be.


----------



## GarrettKP (Apr 6, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> My money is on something really wild, like "Star Frontiers" or "Magic: the Gathering," but that is genuinely exciting whatever it turns out to be.




Without derailing the thread, I still think Broadway and Catacomb are Waterdeep and Undermountain, and this third book is likely a Planescape/Guide to the Planes book to go with Tome of Foes.


----------



## Ath-kethin (Apr 6, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> My money is on something really wild, like "Star Frontiers" or "Magic: the Gathering," but that is genuinely exciting whatever it turns out to be.




I see we use the term "genuinely exciting" for different purposes.

IMMEDIATE EDIT: That was a crap thing to say and I apologize. If those sound exciting to you, power to you. I'm hoping they're something different, but to each their own.


----------



## Parmandur (Apr 6, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> Without derailing the thread, I still think Broadway and Catacomb are Waterdeep and Undermountain, and this third book is likely a Planescape/Guide to the Planes book to go with Tome of Foes.



Whatever it is, they clearly have some surprises in store...


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Apr 10, 2018)

Astral Dreadnought vs Leviathan in today's Mordenkainen's Mayhem. We already knew about the Astral Dreadnought, and I believe I remember the Leviathan being mentioned before...


----------



## Parmandur (Apr 10, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Astral Dreadnought vs Leviathan in today's Mordenkainen's Mayhem. We already knew about the Astral Dreadnought, and I believe I remember the Leviathan being mentioned before...



I don't recall a "Levithian" in D&D before, and Google fails me: what's the skinny on that beastie?


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Apr 10, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> I don't recall a "Levithian" in D&D before, and Google fails me: what's the skinny on that beastie?




Massive water elemental.

I believe they mentioned it before when talking about powerful elemental foes in the book. Or am I thinking of another powerful elemental foe they mentioned?


----------



## Parmandur (Apr 10, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Massive water elemental.
> 
> I believe they mentioned it before when talking about powerful elemental foes in the book. Or am I thinking of another powerful elemental foe they mentioned?



Nah, I remember Mearls name-dropping it.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Apr 10, 2018)

There original AD&D Leviathan is in the Moonshae sourcebook (and the Moonshae novels). It is one of the three "children of the Goddess" and is a massive whale.

This might be a completely different creature if it is an elemental though.

For those who don't know, the original name is an Old Testament reference (Book of Job), thought to refer to a hippopotamus or crocodile.


----------



## QuietBrowser (Apr 14, 2018)

I don't know how relevant this is, or if it hasn't been covered already, but FantasyGrounds has some teaser images up that hint at new monsters we'll be getting: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/product.xcp?id=WOTC5EMTOF

Just noting what I could make out...

Dire Troll
Shadar-kai (Gloom Weaver, Shadow Dancer, Soul Monger)
Elemental Myrmidons (reprint from Princes of the Apocalypse)
Abishai
Archdevils (unspecified)
Demon Princes (Baphomet mentioned, Zuggtmoy and Jubilex hinted at)
Astral Dreadnought
Cadaver Collector
Bael
Balhannoth
Berbalang
Boneclaw
Bronze Scout
Bulezau
Choker
Vampiric Mist
"The Lost"
Frost Salamander
Winter Eladrin
Nightwalker
Elder Tempest
Tortle
Skulk
Canoloth
"The Lonely"
Spirit Troll

Confirmed as six chapters; The Blood War, Elves, Dwarves & Duergar, Gith And Their Endless War, Halflings And Gnomes, and Bestiary.

One shot contains a Races bar featuring Dwarf, Elf, Gith, Gnome and Tiefling. It's implied we'll be getting reprints of the Duergar and Svirfneblin from SCAG, alongside the new Eladrin & Shadar-kai they've been promising, as well as the Gith and the Archdevil Tieflings.

Also, it seems like Gith will basially be a complete reprint of their UA material; the teaser shot of the Gith Characters page mentions both races get +1 Int and the snippet of Gith info features a Strength boost and the Decadent Mastery feature.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Apr 14, 2018)

Azer Duergar?


----------



## Parmandur (Apr 14, 2018)

Full background tables for Devils, and random encounter tables.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Apr 14, 2018)

Other monsters from those previews:

Duergar Soulblades and Xarrorn (both from OotA), as well as Duergar Hammerers and Screamers (which aren't from OotA, unless they are renamed variants).

Ogre Battering Rams and Ogre Bolt Launchers (which sound like ogre siege equipment, but they are listed under creatures, so, presumably, living ogre siege equipment)

"Merrenoloth", which I assume is either a misspelled, or a new spelling for, Marraenoloth, although its CR 3 is _much_ lower than the CR 10 it had in 3.x days.

Iron Cobra and Meazel are both mentioned in the Bestiary chapter introduction (as is one more creature who would appear after the "and..." but is cut off at the bottom of the screen).


I'm very happy to see more ogre and troll variants, which will spice up encounters with that type of creature.

The Winter Eladrin is interesting. We know that the playable eladrin will have seasonal variants (even within the same character), but we had assumed that the creature eladrin would revert to the pre-4e versions. I'm guessing that they've reskinned some of the pre-4e versions as eladrin with seasonal names (although they could have scrapped the old versions entirely and relaunched brand new types, but that seems to be against the MO of 5th Edition). So, if that's the case, which of the older types is our new CR 10 Winter Eladrin? The CR 10 eladrin back in 3.x was the Firre, but as it's fire based, it would be utterly inappropriate for a Winter Eladrin (and would easily be the Summer Eldadrin). My guess would be the Bralani (although CR 10 is a bit of an upgrade for them), as they traditionally inhabit Pelion (the desert and snow filled layer of Arborea), were able to turn into a snowstorm (among other forms), and have snow white or silver hair.

(Also, this preview has checked off even more from my "100 most wanted monsters" list. Between Volo's and this, I might see the huge majority of them updated for the current edition!)


----------



## Parmandur (Apr 14, 2018)

Of some interest is the Tortle entries: I wonder if they will include rules for playing them, as well, or for playing low CR Monster Manual entries in general...?

The Frost Salamander really caught my eye, as something bizarre and amazing sounding.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Apr 14, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Of some interest is the Tortle entries: I wonder if they will include rules for playing them, as well, or for playing low CR Monster Manual entries in general...?
> 
> The Frost Salamander really caught my eye, as something bizarre and amazing sounding.




Frost Salamanders have been around since 1e days, although with only a handful of mentions they've never gotten much attention compared to their fiery cousins!


----------



## gyor (Apr 14, 2018)

Bael is an Archdevil in service to Mammon.


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## gyor (Apr 14, 2018)

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Skulk

 This is what a Skulk is, they worship god Ibdrundel who got eaten by Shar, but who may have  returned with the Sundering.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulezau

 Demon soldiers.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Canoloth


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## Demetrios1453 (Apr 14, 2018)

gyor said:


> Bael is an Archdevil in service to Mammon.




Interesting - that's the third archdevil confirmed to get a stat block in the book, and so far _none_ of them are among the current roster of ruling Archdukes from the MM and DMG (and thus presumably the official roster for this edition). Moreover, with all the "B" monsters listed, including individuals such as Bael and Baphomet, that means Belial and Baalzebul _won't_ be given stat blocks in this book. The thought had occurred to me before, but I am beginning to seriously wonder if we will only get non-ruling archdevils in this book, and they are saving the ruling Archdukes for a later book...


----------



## gyor (Apr 14, 2018)

I'm glad Abasai are in, its weird they had a Tiamat adventure without them honestly.

 I can't help but think that if your going to be damned to help your better off being starting off as a Abasai then as a Lemure.


----------



## gyor (Apr 14, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Interesting - that's the third archdevil confirmed to get a stat block in the book, and so far _none_ of them are among the current roster of ruling Archdukes from the MM and DMG (and thus presumably the official roster for this edition). Moreover, with all the "B" monsters listed, including individuals such as Bael and Baphomet, that means Belial and Baalzebul _won't_ be given stat blocks in this book. The thought had occurred to me before, but I am beginning to seriously wonder if we will only get non-ruling archdevils in this book, and they are saving the ruling Archdukes for a later book...




 I am starting to Wonder that too.


----------



## Parmandur (Apr 14, 2018)

Lots of these are from the Fiend Folio, along with the Gith, or Basic D&D exclusive monsters. Deep cuts.


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## Demetrios1453 (Apr 14, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Lots of these are from the Fiend Folio, along with the Gith, or Basic D&D exclusive monsters. Deep cuts.




I was just thinking the same thing. In fact, given the monsters updated in ToA, they have been on a real _Fiend Folio_ kick recently. 

Not that that is a bad thing at all, of course...


----------



## Elderbrain (Apr 14, 2018)

Interesting side note by the Abishai entry; it states that Tiamat is a being of Chaos on a plane of Law, and questions whether the Abishais are her servants or jailers. Could WOTC have just gone with the typo in Tiamat's stat block and changed Tiamat from LE to CE???

Also, I suspect not everything In those screen shots is actually from MTOF, for instance the Tortule.


----------



## Parmandur (Apr 14, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> I was just thinking the same thing. In fact, given the monsters updated in ToA, they have been on a real _Fiend Folio_ kick recently.
> 
> Not that that is a bad thing at all, of course...



The Nightwalker seems to have originated in the Master Set box, seems C and M monsters from BECMI would be likely candidates for the design mandates of higher CR monsters.


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## MonsterEnvy (Apr 14, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Interesting - that's the third archdevil confirmed to get a stat block in the book, and so far _none_ of them are among the current roster of ruling Archdukes from the MM and DMG (and thus presumably the official roster for this edition). Moreover, with all the "B" monsters listed, including individuals such as Bael and Baphomet, that means Belial and Baalzebul _won't_ be given stat blocks in this book. The thought had occurred to me before, but I am beginning to seriously wonder if we will only get non-ruling archdevils in this book, and they are saving the ruling Archdukes for a later book...




Yeah I just realized that as well. Which is a shame as Baalzebul was the one I was most looking forward to.


----------



## QuietBrowser (Apr 14, 2018)

So, question; who is Bael anyway? I don't remember him every showing up before.


----------



## Parmandur (Apr 14, 2018)

QuietBrowser said:


> So, question; who is Bael anyway? I don't remember him every showing up before.



He's a vassal of Mammon in Minauros, the third Hell:


"Bael - Bael is served by 66 companies of barbed devils. Each company includes 333 soldiers. Bael was first detailed in Gary Gygax's article "From the Sorcerer's Scroll: New Denizens of Devildom," in Dragon #75 (TSR, 1983).[9] He also appeared in the original Monster Manual II (1983).[10] Bael was briefly detailed in Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells (2006).[11]Bael was detailed in the online version of Dragon, in issue #360 (October 2007) in the "Infernal Aristocracy" feature.[12] He also appears under the "devil" heading in the Tome of Horrors (2002) from Necromancer Games.[13]"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammon_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)


----------



## Parmandur (Apr 14, 2018)

Something that was pointed out on Reddit, all of the monsters revealed so far are generic (Greyhawk, Mystarra, Nentir Vale or Planescape), not much in the way of setting specific representation.


----------



## QuietBrowser (Apr 14, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Something that was pointed out on Reddit, all of the monsters revealed so far are generic (Greyhawk, Mystarra, Nentir Vale or Planescape), not much in the way of setting specific representation.




I believe further upthread it was mentioned we're getting the Giff? Those are fire-arm obsessed mercenary hippo-folk who originated from Spelljammer, so that's something.


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Apr 14, 2018)

1e Bael from the MM 2



3e Bael form Dragon


----------



## gyor (Apr 15, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> Yeah I just realized that as well. Which is a shame as Baalzebul was the one I was most looking forward to.




 For me I'm looking forward to Fierna and Glaysa in it or at least I hope they are.


----------



## gyor (Apr 15, 2018)

Elderbrain said:


> Interesting side note by the Abishai entry; it states that Tiamat is a being of Chaos on a plane of Law, and questions whether the Abishais are her servants or jailers. Could WOTC have just gone with the typo in Tiamat's stat block and changed Tiamat from LE to CE???
> 
> Also, I suspect not everything In those screen shots is actually from MTOF, for instance the Tortule.




 Actually it was hinted at in Erin M Evans novel The Devil You Know that Tiamat's true nature is Chsotic and that what we think of as Tiamat is a corruption.


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Apr 15, 2018)

gyor said:


> Actually it was hinted at in Erin M Evans novel The Devil You Know that Tiamat's true nature is Chsotic and that what we think of as Tiamat is a corruption.




Thats kind of strange given that she has been lawful evil in everything else.


----------



## Parmandur (Apr 15, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> Thats kind of strange given that she has been lawful evil in everything else.



Well, she might not be of one mind on the topic.


----------



## gyor (Apr 15, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> Thats kind of strange given that she has been lawful evil in everything else.




 I think the idea is the lawful aspect is a byproduct of being trapped in hell, its not a natural element to her nature, but rather the influence of hell seeping in.

 She never really acted Lawful to be honest, in FR she had a habit of trying to start rebellians against governments, something very Chaotic.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Apr 15, 2018)

Thinking over things concerning the Archdevils, as well as the _Fiend Folio_ comments earlier (in which we discussed how many creatures in MToF seem to be old school 1e or Basic D&D monsters), I'm wondering if the selection of Archdevils we'll be seeing will be the currently non-ruling Archdevils who originally appeared in 1e MM and MM2? Bael, Geryon, and Moloch all fit that description, so might we also be seeing Amon, Hutijin, and Titivilus as the other Archdevils in MToF?


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Apr 15, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Thinking over things concerning the Archdevils, as well as the _Fiend Folio_ comments earlier (in which we discussed how many creatures in MToF seem to be old school 1e or Basic D&D monsters), I'm wondering if the selection of Archdevils we'll be seeing will be the currently non-ruling Archdevils who originally appeared in 1e MM and MM2? Bael, Geryon, and Moloch all fit that description, so might we also be seeing Amon, Hutijin, and Titivilus as the other Archdevils in MToF?




It would be kind of strange. Normally when the devils are talked about it's the Lords of the Nine. Hopefully we eventually get them all. Though I wonder what was the reasoning for these choices.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Apr 15, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> It would be kind of strange. Normally when the devils are talked about it's the Lords of the Nine. Hopefully we eventually get them all. Though I wonder what was the reasoning for these choices.




My best guess would be that they are just holding the Lords of the Nine off for a later product. A bit disappointing, but it would make for a good selling point for said product, while freeing up a whole bunch of pages in MToF for other creatures in the bestiary.

Granted, they could split them, giving us some now and some later, but they would have to come up with some reason to not make it arbitrary. But Baalzebul would likely be part of the first group to be detailed, given his popularity and importance, so since he's not going to be in MToF, I'm beginning to lean towards the Nine being detailed in a later release.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Apr 15, 2018)

One of the entries screenshots implies that Blue Abishai are CR 17, which would be quite a power boost from before where Abishai were low-powered Devils.

There's Bulezau which makes sense if they're including Baphomet in the book.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Apr 15, 2018)

Kobold Avenger said:


> One of the entries screenshots implies that Blue Abishai are CR 17, which would be quite a power boost from before where Abishai were low-powered Devils.




It doesn't imply it, it outright says it!

That _is_ a change! I wonder if abishai are going to be all powered up, or whether we'll get a large CR range for the type based on the power of corresponding dragon type, with white and black around the previous low-to-mid CR range, and with a CR 20+ red abishai?


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Apr 15, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> It doesn't imply it, it outright says it!
> 
> That _is_ a change! I wonder if abishai are going to be all powered up, or whether we'll get a large CR range for the type based on the power of corresponding dragon type, with white and black around the previous low-to-mid CR range, and with a CR 20+ red abishai?




I doubt Red Abishai will be that strong. I am going to bet CR 18 for the Red.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Apr 15, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Frost Salamanders have been around since 1e days, although with only a handful of mentions they've never gotten much attention compared to their fiery cousins!




The crop up a quite major way in the Icewind Dale CRPG and in BG2 avenger druids can shapeshift into one.


----------



## QuietBrowser (Apr 15, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> The crop up a quite major way in the Icewind Dale CRPG and in BG2 avenger druids can shapeshift into one.




Except the videogame versions of Frost Salamanders actually have nothing in common with their TTRPG counterparts. The videogame frost salmanders are literally just salamanders palate-swapped to being blue with "coldfire" auras; the tabletop versions look like giant, six-legged lizards, have an intelligence level only slightly higher than animalistic, and have no culture beyond being just animalistic predators.


----------



## gyor (Apr 15, 2018)

Does anyone remember how powerful Abashai we're in previous editions?


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Apr 15, 2018)

gyor said:


> Does anyone remember how powerful Abashai we're in previous editions?




Not nearly that strong. They used to be fairly minor devils. In 3.5 they went from 4 to 9 if I remember correctly.

Edit Correction 4 to 8 is the answer.


----------



## Ath-kethin (Apr 15, 2018)

gyor said:


> Does anyone remember how powerful Abashai we're in previous editions?




In 2e, the black abishai was the greatest monster you could face. If it hit you just right you were dead, but it was overall really wimpy and still worth a ton of XP. 

Totally worth the risk to take one on.


----------



## gyor (Apr 15, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> Not nearly that strong. They used to be fairly minor devils. In 3.5 they went from 4 to 9 if I remember correctly.
> 
> Edit Correction 4 to 8 is the answer.




 So at least some of them more then doubled in CR, with Red Abashai possibly rivalling Pit Fiends.

 As it is Blue Abasai is equal CR to a Gorestro and for Devils only the Pit Fiend and Archdevils so far are more powerful then the Blue Abashai.


----------



## gyor (Apr 15, 2018)

By the way anyone else notice the strange art for Tiefling subraces? Interesting.


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Apr 15, 2018)

Ath-kethin said:


> In 2e, the black abishai was the greatest monster you could face. If it hit you just right you were dead, but it was overall really wimpy and still worth a ton of XP.
> 
> Totally worth the risk to take one on.




Black Abishai were the weakest of the 2e Abishai.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Apr 15, 2018)

gyor said:


> So at least some of them more then doubled in CR, with Red Abashai possibly rivalling Pit Fiends.
> 
> As it is Blue Abasai is equal CR to a Gorestro and for Devils only the Pit Fiend and Archdevils so far are more powerful then the Blue Abashai.




As I mentioned before - the question is, are they upgrading them all to high-level CRs, or are we going to get a spread where white abishai are going to be about where they were previously and red abishai are epic-level threats. I could see them doing a wider spread of CRs, since before they were all grouped in a pretty small CR range, so a wider spread would allow them to be a themed foe throughout a long campaign.


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Apr 15, 2018)

I don't imagine Reds will be stronger then Pit Fiends or Arch Devils


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Apr 15, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> I don't imagine Reds will be stronger then Pit Fiends or Arch Devils




If they keep the same traditional abishai hierarchy, they will almost certainly be on par (or nearly on par) with pit fiends at the very least. With blue being CR 17, for reds to be more powerful, they will need to be CR 18 at minimum; and to make them noticeably more powerful than the blues, that would imply something near pit fiend (CR 20) power levels...

But they wouldn't really rival pit fiends or archdevils in the hierarchy of the Nine Hells. They've always done their own thing in Tiamat's area of Avernus, kind of off to the side of the rest of the devilish hierarchy.

But in any case, it still is a pretty significant change, and I wonder how it will be explained in the book...


----------



## gyor (Apr 15, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> As I mentioned before - the question is, are they upgrading them all to high-level CRs, or are we going to get a spread where white abishai are going to be about where they were previously and red abishai are epic-level threats. I could see them doing a wider spread of CRs, since before they were all grouped in a pretty small CR range, so a wider spread would allow them to be a themed foe throughout a long campaign.




 It would also allow the lower CR ones to be summoned by Infernal Calling, while still having some at higher CR.


----------



## Ath-kethin (Apr 16, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> Black Abishai were the weakest of the 2e Abishai.




Exactly. And they were a super easy foe if you had magic weapons, but still worth a truckload of XP proportionally. Their poison was nasty, but not actually as nasty as Type E, and if you could make your save you were home free.


----------



## SkidAce (Apr 16, 2018)

Kobold Avenger said:


> One of the entries screenshots implies that Blue Abishai are CR 17, which would be quite a power boost from before where Abishai were low-powered Devils.
> 
> There's Bulezau which makes sense if they're including Baphomet in the book.




Man I hope not, I liked using the all the colors in one scenario, leaders/followers etc.


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## gyor (Apr 16, 2018)

SkidAce said:


> Man I hope not, I liked using the all the colors in one scenario, leaders/followers etc.




 You can still do that. At low level make the higher CR Abashai social encounters or have another creature on your side to even the odds, and the lower CR ones for fighting and/or summoning.

 At higher level use groups of the lower CR Abashai as minions of the higher Abashai who you use as Solo's. I use 4e terms for this, because 5e doesn't use these terms.


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## SkidAce (Apr 16, 2018)

gyor said:


> You can still do that. At low level make the higher CR Abashai social encounters or have another creature on your side to even the odds, and the lower CR ones for fighting and/or summoning.
> 
> At higher level use groups of the lower CR Abashai as minions of the higher Abashai who you use as Solo's. I use 4e terms for this, because 5e doesn't use these terms.




I hear yah.

I guess I'm just used to my 1st edition viewpoint where they were the bulk of fiendish draconic armies, and the leaders were fiendish wvyverns, dragons, or linnorms.


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## MechaTarrasque (Apr 16, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Other monsters from those previews:
> 
> Duergar Soulblades and Xarrorn (both from OotA), as well as Duergar Hammerers and Screamers (which aren't from OotA, unless they are renamed variants).
> 
> ...




For the seasonal eladrin, they might do like what they did with the genies, where they all have the same CR in 5e, whereas they had different power levels in previous editions.


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## QuietBrowser (Apr 16, 2018)

Can we get the opening post edited to gather up all the monsters listed in this thread? That'd be a nice easy reference to have.


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## Sword of Spirit (Apr 16, 2018)

gyor said:


> Does anyone remember how powerful Abashai we're in previous editions?




According to the Hierarchy of Baator chart in the 2e Planescape Planes of Law boxed set, they are right above spinagons (which are right above lemure) and right below barbazu and kocrachon. In other words, pretty low on the totempole!

I couldn't find a good link to post, but an image search for "Hierarchy of Baator" will turn up some charts with the correct relationships.



Demetrios1453 said:


> They've always done their own thing in Tiamat's area of Avernus, kind of off to the side of the rest of the devilish hierarchy.




Not according to that chart. I think the Tiamat thing was mostly a side element in AD&D days (at least in Planescape), since they were described as basically the most representative archetypal devil. They were extremely common and a fundamental part of the baatorian society.



> But in any case, it still is a pretty significant change, and I wonder how it will be explained in the book...




They sure as Baator better give a good explanation!


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## dave2008 (Apr 16, 2018)

Sword of Spirit said:


> They sure as Baator better give a good explanation!




There is no Baator, only the Nine Hells!


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## Elderbrain (Apr 16, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> There is no Baator, only the Nine Hells!




I think the Baatezu would beg to differ.  "Devils" is what Primes call them; "Baatezu" is what they call themselves... "The Nine Hells" is what we call their home; "Baator" is what they call it. They have their own language - why wouldn't their name for their home Plane be different than what others call it?


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## dave2008 (Apr 16, 2018)

Elderbrain said:


> I think the Baatezu would beg to differ.  "Devils" is what Primes call them; "Baatezu" is what they call themselves... "The Nine Hells" is what we call their home; "Baator" is what they call it. They have their own language - why wouldn't their name for their home Plane be different than what others call it?




I was just having a little fun.  I'm just old school.  I grew up reading the 1e MM and MM2 and 2e never caught on with me.  I could never get used to the Baatezu and Tanar'ri.


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## MonsterEnvy (Apr 16, 2018)

It appears we are going to get Molochs stats when Dragon + comes out for this month. Which can be any day now.


----------



## Remathilis (Apr 17, 2018)

It looks like we're getting some reprinted monsters from the AP line; EE, OOtA, and TotYP all have at least one reprinted monster or more.


----------



## Elderbrain (Apr 17, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> I was just having a little fun.  I'm just old school.  I grew up reading the 1e MM and MM2 and 2e never caught on with me.  I could never get used to the Baatezu and Tanar'ri.




Oh, sure. And I am aware that the name change was mostly due to the bad press D&D was getting at the time, with the idea that parents who read a D&D book wouldn't see the words "demon" and "devil", and thus wouldn't get upset, even though it's the same critters with new names. I wonder if the names "Baatezu" and "Tanar'ri" will occur in MTOF? Would also be nice if they mentioned "Daemons" as another name for Yugoloths...)


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Apr 17, 2018)

Elderbrain said:


> Oh, sure. And I am aware that the name change was mostly due to the bad press D&D was getting at the time, with the idea that parents who read a D&D book wouldn't see the words "demon" and "devil", and thus wouldn't get upset, even though it's the same critters with new names. I wonder if the names "Baatezu" and "Tanar'ri" will occur in MTOF? Would also be nice if they mentioned "Daemons" as another name for Yugoloths...)




Daemon and Demon are pronounced exactly the same, there's a reason why they avoid that.  And while technically the word Daemon from its original Greek meaning is the word for spirit and was a traditionally neutral term with the words Cacodaemon and Agathodaemon/Eudaemon to distinguish Evil Spirit and Good Spirit from each other.  Cacodaemon was tied to a particular spell older versions of D&D and not any sort of creature.  I don't think they're ready to call Angels or Celestials, Eudaemons either.


----------



## dave2008 (Apr 17, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> It looks like we're getting some reprinted monsters from the AP line; EE, OOtA, and TotYP all have at least one reprinted monster or more.




They have already said the are reprinting all the demon lords from OotA


----------



## dave2008 (Apr 17, 2018)

Elderbrain said:


> Oh, sure. And I am aware that the name change was mostly due to the bad press D&D was getting at the time, with the idea that parents who read a D&D book wouldn't see the words "demon" and "devil", and thus wouldn't get upset, even though it's the same critters with new names. I wonder if the names "Baatezu" and "Tanar'ri" will occur in MTOF? Would also be nice if they mentioned "Daemons" as another name for Yugoloths...)




4e called them demons and devils, but also mentioned they are also referred to as tanar'ri and baatezu.  I can't recall if this was in the 5e MM or not


----------



## Sword of Spirit (Apr 17, 2018)

Kobold Avenger said:


> Daemon and Demon are pronounced exactly the same, there's a reason why they avoid that.




The pronunciation depends on where you're at. I definitely pronounce those differently. But they are basically the same word, 'demon' just went through an extra step or two in its journey from Greek to English.

It still like having D&D sages use the terms to refer to different creatures though. It's just fun.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Apr 17, 2018)

Maybe it's simply because the "D" section of the Monster Manual was too stuffed?!

Yogoloths (as Daemons) originally appeared in the Fiend Folio, so the didn't have to share space with Demons and Devils. There where still up against dragons though - the Fiend Folio listed Oriental Dragons - whatever happened to them?


----------



## Li Shenron (Apr 17, 2018)

Kobold Avenger said:


> Daemon and Demon are pronounced exactly the same




Weird, I usually thought that "daemon" was a mix between the words "devil" and "demon", and its "dae-" was pronounced just like the "de-" in "devil".


----------



## dave2008 (Apr 17, 2018)

Li Shenron said:


> Weird, I usually thought that "daemon" was a mix between the words "devil" and "demon", and its "dae-" was pronounced just like the "de-" in "devil".




I remember reading somewhere (many years ago) that daemon was pronounced: "die" "moan."  But when I looked it up yesterday, pretty much every source agreed that they are pronounced the same.  Either times have changed or the internet has changed the times.


----------



## Elderbrain (Apr 17, 2018)

Mike Mearls stated in Sage Advice that there are no Archfey in the book - somebody asked him about it.


----------



## MechaTarrasque (Apr 17, 2018)

Elderbrain said:


> Mike Mearls stated in Sage Advice that there are no Archfey in the book - somebody asked him about it.



Bummer, but maybe a feywild-based AP would give a more thorough look into them.


----------



## QuietBrowser (Apr 17, 2018)

Elderbrain said:


> Mike Mearls stated in Sage Advice that there are no Archfey in the book - somebody asked him about it.




Sigh... and we're back to pre-4e's rules of anything Fey related getting the shaft. I'm surprised they didn't just rip the damn Feywild out of the PHB.


----------



## Remathilis (Apr 17, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> They have already said the are reprinting all the demon lords from OotA




Yup, I was counting them. I was wondering what else from the APs are going in. Looking at the list of non-NPC monsters not already in the MM or Volo, I see

HotDR/RoT: Ice Toad, Ice Troll, Scrag
EE: Elemental Myrmidons
OOtA: Derro (sevant), Steeders (m/f), Ixitachitl (vamp), Duergar variants
CoS: Broom of Animated Attack, Mongrelfolk, Phantom Warrior, Tree Blight, Strahd Zombie, Wereraven
SKT: Crag Cat, Hulking Crab, Purple Worming, Tressym, Yakfolk
TotYP: Animated Table, Choker, Deathlock Wright, Dread Warrior, Duergar Spy, Giant Crayfish, Giant Ice Toad, Giant Lightning Eel, Giant Skeleton, Giant Subterrainean Lizard, Greater Zombie, Kelpie, Neried, Sea Lion, Siren, Thorn Slinger, Vampiric Mist
ToA: Albino Dwarf, Aldani, Almiraj, Assassin Vine, Atropal, Chwinga, Eblis, Flying Monkey, Giant Snapping Turtle, Giant Strider, Jaculi, Kamadan, Mantrap, Pterafolk, Stone Juggernaut, Su-Monster, Tabaxi, Thorny, Tri-Flower Frond, Yellow Musk Creeper Zorbo

...and I'm sure I missed some.

Not sure all of those are going to make it in, but I'd love to see as many as possible reprinted in some updated MM tome like this so I don't need to buy PotA just to have elemental Myrmidon stats.


----------



## gyor (Apr 18, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> Yup, I was counting them. I was wondering what else from the APs are going in. Looking at the list of non-NPC monsters not already in the MM or Volo, I see
> 
> HotDR/RoT: Ice Toad, Ice Troll, Scrag
> EE: Elemental Myrmidons
> ...




 Mtrmidon is confirmed to be in.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Apr 18, 2018)

QuietBrowser said:


> Sigh... and we're back to pre-4e's rules of anything Fey related getting the shaft. I'm surprised they didn't just rip the damn Feywild out of the PHB.




Oh, it's not that bad - celestials have had it worse this edition compared to fey. Currently there have only been 9 celestial stat blocks printed in total for all books so far for the edition, compared to 19 for fey creatures. And we know that MToF will give us some good stuff for fey on the eladrin front at least. As for archfey, well, outside of the Princes of Elemental Evil, some Demon Princes, and (in MToF) some Archdevils, we really haven't detailed much in the way of named paragons for this edition yet. Now, if we had the General of Gehenna, Primus, the slaad lords, the Celestial Hebdomad, and the guardianal paragons already detailed and we were still lacking the archfey, that would be reason to complain. But right now the archfey are in a very crowded waiting room along with a huge number of other paragons...


----------



## Connorsrpg (Apr 19, 2018)

(Side track: but those looking for fey, I know they are not official, but there was a recent fey 5E Kickstarter that looked great & Tome of Beasts 5E (Kobold Press) has a heap of fey, inc archfey, in it and well worth it). I mean how often do you encounter them anyway, but they are there


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## Paul Farquhar (Apr 19, 2018)

It's interesting how fae have become far more popular since the early days of D&D (it seems to start around 3.5). I tend to think of it as pre-Tolkienism.

My interpretation of the comment is that fae are being deliberately held back from MTOF because they are going to get their own book.


----------



## QuietBrowser (Apr 20, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> It's interesting how fae have become far more popular since the early days of D&D (it seems to start around 3.5). I tend to think of it as pre-Tolkienism.
> 
> My interpretation of the comment is that fae are being deliberately held back from MTOF because they are going to get their own book.




Technically, fey have been a large part of the game since the beginning - I think "Creature Crucible: Tall Tales of the Wee Folk", which introduced a huge array of playable fey races for Basic D&D ranging from sprites and pixies to leprechauns, pookas, centaurs and treants, was the first ever "racial supplement". The problem is that, prior to 4e giving us the Feywild, they were always a very haphazard race, with no clear position in the cosmology - the most iconic "Fairyland" name, Arcadia, was given to the plane that straddles the Neutral Good and Chaotic Good divide, whilst aspects of Fairyland can be seen in both Arvandor (Chaotic Good) and in Ysgard (Chaotic Good-Neutral).

Once we had the Feywild, though, fey had a clear place and position in the world, so they fitted the game better, which naturally made people pay more attention to them.


----------



## Parmandur (Apr 20, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> It's interesting how fae have become far more popular since the early days of D&D (it seems to start around 3.5). I tend to think of it as pre-Tolkienism.
> 
> My interpretation of the comment is that fae are being deliberately held back from MTOF because they are going to get their own book.



I think it is very notable what isn't in the book, at least in significant numbers:

Fey
Celestials
Genie
Dragons

More than enough material for multiple future books...


----------



## gyor (Apr 20, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Oh, it's not that bad - celestials have had it worse this edition compared to fey. Currently there have only been 9 celestial stat blocks printed in total for all books so far for the edition, compared to 19 for fey creatures. And we know that MToF will give us some good stuff for fey on the eladrin front at least. As for archfey, well, outside of the Princes of Elemental Evil, some Demon Princes, and (in MToF) some Archdevils, we really haven't detailed much in the way of named paragons for this edition yet. Now, if we had the General of Gehenna, Primus, the slaad lords, the Celestial Hebdomad, and the guardianal paragons already detailed and we were still lacking the archfey, that would be reason to complain. But right now the archfey are in a very crowded waiting room along with a huge number of other paragons...




 I count 8 celestial stat blocks.

 1 Devas
 2 Planatar
 3 Solar
 4 Pegasus
 5 Unicorn
 6 Couatl
 7 Empyrean
 8 Kirin.

 What is the ninth one?


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Apr 20, 2018)

gyor said:


> I count 8 celestial stat blocks.
> 
> 1 Devas
> 2 Planatar
> ...



There's a celestial in CoS whose name eludes me at the moment.


----------



## Remathilis (Apr 20, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> There's a celestial in CoS whose name eludes me at the moment.



There is a Deva who is a fallen Angel in Strahd, but he's not a unique creature.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Apr 20, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> There is a Deva who is a fallen Angel in Strahd, but he's not a unique creature.



The unique celestial in CoS is The Abbot, at CR 10.


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Apr 20, 2018)

He is unique in that he is named. But he is just a Deva.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Apr 20, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> He is unique in that he is named. But he is just a Deva.



Oh ok, odd that he gets a stat block listed on his own in DDB then...


----------



## gyor (Apr 21, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Oh ok, odd that he gets a stat block listed on his own in DDB then...




 Probably because he's different from other Devas; tainted.


----------



## Elderbrain (Apr 22, 2018)

UPDATE! I have updated the OP to list all the monsters known at this time - and will add more as they are mentioned in the thread or elsewhere. No more hunting!


----------



## gyor (Apr 22, 2018)

Elderbrain said:


> NOW UPDATED!!!
> 
> This is a list of confirmed monsters in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes. Please add more as they are announced!
> 
> ...




 The Wretches I think were little demons, but I guess they could be creatures of the Shadowfell, I don't know.


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## Elderbrain (Apr 22, 2018)

Yeah, I know they were allies of the Sibirex in the fight vs. Moloch - does anybody know if they were summoned creatures? If so, probably demons. Still, unusual name tags for demons...


----------



## Saint_Ridley (Apr 22, 2018)

I'm going to be so happy when I get this book. The Sibriex gives 5e an Obyrith presence (and the Obyrith element of Abyssal history was easily the best part of the first Fiendish Codex), getting some demon lords and archdevils put in one central place is always nice, I'll always take any new Gith stuff I can get, and the Cadaver Collector is my favorite construct. This might be my favorite supplement overall for the edition.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Apr 22, 2018)

Saint_Ridley said:


> I'm going to be so happy when I get this book. The Sibriex gives 5e an Obyrith presence (and the Obyrith element of Abyssal history was easily the best part of the first Fiendish Codex), getting some demon lords and archdevils put in one central place is always nice, I'll always take any new Gith stuff I can get, and the Cadaver Collector is my favorite construct. This might be my favorite supplement overall for the edition.




I imagine we're going to get more Obyriths besides the Sibirex, since, going by the pages we've seen in the previews already, we're very likely to get _lots_ of devils and demons. I'll repost something I said in the "Mordenkainen's starting to show up in the wild" thread concerning the pages and why we'll see lots of fiends in it:

"Moloch is in the "D" section (for "Devil" obviously, and the "D" is helpfully shown on each page), and is on pages 176 - 177. I hadn't looked previously for some reason (which is odd, since I always check for page numbers in previews so I can get as much info as possible on what an upcoming book contains), but the Astral Dreadnought is on page 117. So, given that we'll likely have a few "A" creatures before the Astral Dreadnought, the Bestiary is going to start somewhere around page 105 - 110 or so. As we know the book is 256 pages long, and the Bestiary is the last chapter of the book, that will give us ~155 - 160 pages or so of monsters, which is pretty impressive (barring a surprise appendix or something similar). Also, that means it's going to take a full 60 pages or so to get just from towards the end of "A" to the middle of "D". As we already know from the Fantasy Grounds preview that there are not that many "B" monsters (and even most of those there will actually be in the Demon and Devil sections in MToF), either we have a lot of stuff for "C" (while we know some clockwork stuff is going to be in there, it's probably not going to be dozens of pages worth!), or we're getting a heck of a lot of demons and devils (duergar will be after Moloch, and drow will be too, although they will probably be in the "E" section anyway like they were in the MM). Even the reprinted demon princes from OotA only take up 18 pages. Besides demons and devils, the only "theme" creatures that fit in that range would be derro, and I can't see them taking up more than a few pages. And of course, we'll still have other random creatures in that section as well. But still, that's a lot of page acreage to fill in such a small part of the alphabet! (And, we'll still have ~90 pages of monsters left for the post-Moloch section as well!)"


----------



## Saint_Ridley (Apr 22, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> I imagine we're going to get more Obyriths besides the Sibirex, since, going by the pages we've seen in the previews already, we're very likely to get _lots_ of devils and demons. I'll repost something I said in the "Mordenkainen's starting to show up in the wild" thread concerning the pages and why we'll see lots of fiends in it:
> 
> "Moloch is in the "D" section (for "Devil" obviously, and the "D" is helpfully shown on each page), and is on pages 176 - 177. I hadn't looked previously for some reason (which is odd, since I always check for page numbers in previews so I can get as much info as possible on what an upcoming book contains), but the Astral Dreadnought is on page 117. So, given that we'll likely have a few "A" creatures before the Astral Dreadnought, the Bestiary is going to start somewhere around page 105 - 110 or so. As we know the book is 256 pages long, and the Bestiary is the last chapter of the book, that will give us ~155 - 160 pages or so of monsters, which is pretty impressive (barring a surprise appendix or something similar). Also, that means it's going to take a full 60 pages or so to get just from towards the end of "A" to the middle of "D". As we already know from the Fantasy Grounds preview that there are not that many "B" monsters (and even most of those there will actually be in the Demon and Devil sections in MToF), either we have a lot of stuff for "C" (while we know some clockwork stuff is going to be in there, it's probably not going to be dozens of pages worth!), or we're getting a heck of a lot of demons and devils (duergar will be after Moloch, and drow will be too, although they will probably be in the "E" section anyway like they were in the MM). Even the reprinted demon princes from OotA only take up 18 pages. Besides demons and devils, the only "theme" creatures that fit in that range would be derro, and I can't see them taking up more than a few pages. And of course, we'll still have other random creatures in that section as well. But still, that's a lot of page acreage to fill in such a small part of the alphabet! (And, we'll still have ~90 pages of monsters left for the post-Moloch section as well!)"




This is very good to hear. About half of the reason I continue to buy D&D books relates to keeping up to date on two metaplots: the Blood War and everything Illithids do.

And we're getting more daemons/yugoloths, so even more of that itch is being scratched.


----------



## CapnZapp (Apr 22, 2018)

gyor said:


> Probably because he's different from other Devas; tainted.



Which means he is unique and not a Deva?


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Apr 22, 2018)

CapnZapp said:


> Which means he is unique and not a Deva?




No he is still a Deva. He is just Lawful Evil instead.


----------



## ScaleyBob (Apr 22, 2018)

I am so stoked about this book. I've been hoping for 5E Starspawn since they weren't in the MM, and just as I was about to homebrew Marut for my current campaign, they're in the book about to be released. WotC must have read my mind.


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## Shroomy (Apr 22, 2018)

On a recent podcast/twitch stream, Claudio Pozas said he did artwork for the dergholoth for MToF.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Apr 22, 2018)

Shroomy said:


> On a recent podcast/twitch stream, Claudio Pozas said he did artwork for the dergholoth for MToF.




Nice! Looks like we're getting a pretty full slate of yugoloth updates.

Except for some reasons the baernaloth, if we go by the Fantasy Grounds preview. But could they be altering that to keep some secrets? The lack of "B" archdevils seems a bit odd, as is that CR 17 for the blue abashai. I'm not saying that they definitely played around with it, but there are some oddities about that preview...


----------



## Elderbrain (Apr 22, 2018)

Dergholoth, Iron Cobra, Meazel, Duergar Soulblade, Xarrorn, Hammerer and Screamer added. I have labeled this the 2nd edit; if you see a higher number, new stuff has been added! Single monsters will be placed up front on the list, additions to group entries (i.e. Devils, Yugoloths, Duergar, etc.) will be added to their already-existing lists.


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## Elderbrain (Apr 23, 2018)

Are we SURE there's only six chapters? I know only six are PICTURED in the Fantasy Grounds preview, but there was supposed to be a DM's guide to the Planes and a description of a "certain extraplanar city"... Maybe these are in a seventh chapter after the Bestiary... or have they been dropped to go in another book?
If there IS another chapter, the Bestiary might not be as long as people think... and the text in the Bestiary section pictured in the Fantasy Grounds preview says "over 100" new monsters, which fits better with 130+, not 200+...


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## Parmandur (Apr 23, 2018)

Elderbrain said:


> Are we SURE there's only six chapters? I know only six are PICTURED in the Fantasy Grounds preview, but there was supposed to be a DM's guide to the Planes and a description of a "certain extraplanar city"... Maybe these are in a seventh chapter after the Bestiary... or have they been dropped to go in another book?
> If there IS another chapter, the Bestiary might not be as long as people think... and the text in the Bestiary section pictured in the Fantasy Grounds preview says "over 100" new monsters, which fits better with 130+, not 200+...



We had speculated that there might be such a section, but it seems not to be related to anything mentioned so far. The Roll20 preview specifically says that there are over 230 new monsters for Roll20 purposes, which might be somewhat inflated by templates or something. Seems we are looking at a metric ton of monsters, over half of whom will be CR 10+, but who knows what surprises remain?


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## Demetrios1453 (Apr 23, 2018)

Elderbrain said:


> Are we SURE there's only six chapters? I know only six are PICTURED in the Fantasy Grounds preview, but there was supposed to be a DM's guide to the Planes and a description of a "certain extraplanar city"... Maybe these are in a seventh chapter after the Bestiary... or have they been dropped to go in another book?
> If there IS another chapter, the Bestiary might not be as long as people think... and the text in the Bestiary section pictured in the Fantasy Grounds preview says "over 100" new monsters, which fits better with 130+, not 200+...




I believe that "a certain extraplanar city" was coming up in an unspecified future product, and not to MToF specfically.

The description on the Roll20 page for the book states "over 230 new monsters": https://marketplace.roll20.net/browse/compendiumexpansion/4/mordenkainens-tome-of-foes. Granted, they do tend to have more monsters than the actual stat blocks due to variants, but it shouldn't be excessively lower than that.

Also, as I mentioned in a few posts up, the book is only in the "D" section when it gets to Moloch on pages 176 - 177 (and the "D" is visible towards the bottom of the pages). If it's taken the book 60 pages to just go from "A" to "D" (as the Astral Dreadnought is on page 117), then filling up the remaining 90 pages or so going from "D" to "Z" doesn't seem unreasonable; actually it makes it somewhat unlikely, in my opinion, that there will be significantly fewer pages in the bestiary. Remember that a lot of the monsters that are the focus of the book, such as duergar, drow, both races of gith, and the yugoloths, will be in that section, and all likely taking up some significant page count...


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## Demetrios1453 (Apr 24, 2018)

Sibriex preview released:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?634806-Sibriex-stats-and-art!&p=7403229#post7403229

Note that it's on page 137, which is 20 pages after the Astral Dreadnought and 39 before Moloch. So the Demon Princes will be appearing after the run-of-the-mill demons (as there's basically no room for them before in the 20 open pages), so presumably the Archdevils will similarly appear after the basic devils. With only 20 pages to spare for the monsters in the "B", "C" and pre-Sibriex "D" sections, this implies that we won't being a huge number of normal demons, as they would start crowding out the "B" and "C" creatures we already know are in the book. Granted, in my opinion, they would only need the Molydeus, Nabassu, and Rutterkin as the minimum necessary to update, but I would expect to see other demon types as well. This also makes the demodands slightly less likely, as they would need to be squeezed into that fairly restrictive 20 pages. Conversely, the 39 pagers from the Sibriex to Moloch gives us plenty of room for post-Sibriex demons (such as the Wastrilith), the Demon Princes, any creatures that fit between "Demon" and "Devil" (Derro are about the only likely results there), garden-variety Devils (the five types of Abishai for certain, presumably Amnizu and Nupperibo, and likely others), and then any Archdevils before Moloch...


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## Elderbrain (Apr 25, 2018)

O.K. More monsters is good!


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## gyor (Apr 25, 2018)

Elderbrain said:


> Are we SURE there's only six chapters? I know only six are PICTURED in the Fantasy Grounds preview, but there was supposed to be a DM's guide to the Planes and a description of a "certain extraplanar city"... Maybe these are in a seventh chapter after the Bestiary... or have they been dropped to go in another book?
> If there IS another chapter, the Bestiary might not be as long as people think... and the text in the Bestiary section pictured in the Fantasy Grounds preview says "over 100" new monsters, which fits better with 130+, not 200+...




 It might be an Appendix along with an Appendix on NPC templates.


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## Demetrios1453 (May 1, 2018)

Someone over on Reddit posted the MToF monsters that appear on the new AL adventure:

Allip (CR 5)

Duergar Stone Guard (CR 2)

Duergar Warlord (CR 6)

Eidolon (CR 12) & Eidolon- Sacred Statue

Elder Oblex (CR 10)

Star Spawn Hulk (CR 10)

Star Spawn Mangler (CR 5)

Star Spawn Seer (CR 13)


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## gyor (May 1, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Someone over on Reddit posted the MToF monsters that appear on the new AL adventure:
> 
> Allip (CR 5)
> 
> ...




 I'm curious as to what a Elder Oblex is.


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## MonsterEnvy (May 2, 2018)

gyor said:


> I'm curious as to what a Elder Oblex is.




It appears to be an intelligent spellcasting Ooze that eats memories.


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## gyor (May 2, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> It appears to be an intelligent spellcasting Ooze that eats memories.




 Okay that's pretty cool, I could see it as a worshipper of Ghaunder.


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## ScaleyBob (May 2, 2018)

Those Star Spawn names make me think that they're new versions of the Foulspawn instead of the 4E Star Spawn, unless there's several others in the book.
I'll be happy to see 5E versions of the Foulspawn, but I was really hoping for 5E versions of the 4E Star Spawn as well. Those monsters were awesome in concept, and in play.


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## Elderbrain (May 2, 2018)

New monsters added to OP


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## Demetrios1453 (May 6, 2018)

Fireside Chat with Nathan & Kate previewed bits of MToF. They showed part of the page a new monster, the Corpse Flower (sadly not far enough down to show the page number), as well as some tiefling variants (in the Blood War chapter, on page 22, so technically not new monsters, but interesting nonetheless).


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## Elderbrain (May 6, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Fireside Chat with Nathan & Kate previewed bits of MToF. They showed part of the page a new monster, the Corpse Flower (sadly not far enough down to show the page number), as well as some tiefling variants (in the Blood War chapter, on page 22, so technically not new monsters, but interesting nonetheless).




Got a link?

EDIT: Never mind, I found the Chat - but when do they show the Corpse Flower? I missed it (long video, skipped thru a bunch). However, I found a (ta-DAH!) Gray Render when Kate showed two pages of the book (couldn't tell what the page numbers were, other page seemed to have some kind of humanoids but couldn't make out any details). It's a Chaotic Neutral Monstrosity, with quirks!


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## Demetrios1453 (May 6, 2018)

Elderbrain said:


> Got a link?
> 
> EDIT: Never mind, I found the Chat - but when do they show the Corpse Flower? I missed it (long video, skipped thru a bunch). However, I found a (ta-DAH!) Gray Render when Kate showed two pages of the book (couldn't tell what the page numbers were, other page seemed to have some kind of humanoids but couldn't make out any details). It's a Chaotic Neutral Monstrosity, with quirks!




Corpse Flower is at 13:45; they were joking about flowers for Mother's Day. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/257662586

Better pictures at: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/05/0...new-alternate-tiefling-with-different-traits/


Around what point is the Gray Render?


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## Enevhar Aldarion (May 8, 2018)

The Podcast of Foes series started today with the first two. Did anyone watch them to check for the new monsters?


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## Elderbrain (May 8, 2018)

Demetrious, the Gray Render is at 1:05 (same video as Corpse Flower). Haven't seen the new vids yet.


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## Enkhidu (May 8, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> It appears to be an intelligent spellcasting Ooze that eats memories.




I wonder if they mean “obliviax.”


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## Klaus (May 10, 2018)

Shroomy said:


> On a recent podcast/twitch stream, Claudio Pozas said he did artwork for the dergholoth for MToF.




I listed my whole Lower Planes plate: Alkilith demon, Nabassu demon, Geryon, dergholoth. I'm serving all sides of the Blood War.


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## dave2008 (May 10, 2018)

Elder elementals are confirmed in the video linked in another thread:  http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?638506-12-new-monster-images-revealed-from-Mordenkainen%92s-Tome-of-Foes!

He is the video on youtube (elder elemental at the 53:54 mark):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2029&v=QFF2cby0OYU


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## Kobold Avenger (May 11, 2018)

https://io9.gizmodo.com/get-a-downright-demonic-look-at-the-devils-and-cults-yo-1825959601 has the diabolical cults already featured in the UA article.  It also has a picture of the Amnizu and an entry of the Narzugon in Devils that's included.


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## MechaTarrasque (May 11, 2018)

Kobold Avenger said:


> https://io9.gizmodo.com/get-a-downright-demonic-look-at-the-devils-and-cults-yo-1825959601 has the diabolical cults already featured in the UA article.  It also has a picture of the Amnizu and an entry of the Narzugon in Devils that's included.




Nice upgrade for the Narzugon, but Gandolf is only a level 5 wizard ....


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## Elderbrain (May 11, 2018)

Klaus said:


> I listed my whole Lower Planes plate: Alkilith demon, Nabassu demon, Geryon, dergholoth. I'm serving all sides of the Blood War.




Just to be clear, you're saying that Alkilith and Nabassu are confirmed to be in the book? Because I'll add them to the list if so.


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## Klaus (May 11, 2018)

Elderbrain said:


> Just to be clear, you're saying that Alkilith and Nabassu are confirmed to be in the book? Because I'll add them to the list if so.




Yep.


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## Elderbrain (May 11, 2018)

Klaus said:


> Yep.




YES! Adding them to the list right now!!!


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## Demetrios1453 (May 11, 2018)

Kobold Avenger said:


> https://io9.gizmodo.com/get-a-downright-demonic-look-at-the-devils-and-cults-yo-1825959601 has the diabolical cults already featured in the UA article.  It also has a picture of the Amnizu and an entry of the Narzugon in Devils that's included.



Very happy the Amnizu made the cut!


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## MonsterEnvy (May 12, 2018)

Via Twitter we now have the Monsters by challenge rating. And also the answer to which Lords of the Nine are in this book. Heavy spoilers.




So the answer to how many lords of the Nine is one. Only Zariel is in the book.

Also a few strange things like one of the monsters being an Oinoloth.

Edit Source: https://twitter.com/fistfullofdice/status/995054993328820224


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## Irennan (May 12, 2018)

Who previewed that? Also, that's quite a disappointment.


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## MonsterEnvy (May 12, 2018)

Irennan said:


> Who previewed that? Also, that's quite a disappointment.




Edited the Source in.


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## Irennan (May 12, 2018)

Thank you


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## Parmandur (May 12, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> Via Twitter we now have the Monsters by challenge rating. And also the answer to which Lords of the Nine are in this book. Heavy spoilers.
> 
> View attachment 97430
> 
> ...



Are we certainly that there isn't anything on the following page...?


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## Demetrios1453 (May 12, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> Via Twitter we now have the Monsters by challenge rating. And also the answer to which Lords of the Nine are in this book. Heavy spoilers.
> 
> View attachment 97430
> 
> ...




Very interesting! Definitely leaked far before we had surmised - usually we would have a few more days yet!

Besides that surprising news on the lack of Lords of the Nine (which indicates they are holding most of them back for a later book - unless @_*Parmandur*_ is right, and there are some at the top of the next page), some other observations:

White and black abishai have maintained their previous power level, but green, blue, and red are much higher. We had a hint of this from the Roll 20 preview showing the blue abishai CR, but we didn't know they would split them this way.

Derro made it in, like I assumed they would.

There's a nice range of duergar, and even more drow variants than we knew about. Really, running a drow-centric campaign from 1 - 20 would easily be possible with little in the way of any CR gaps.

I, too, wonder what an "oinoloth" is. If it were the traditional Oinoloth, it should have a much higher CR, as being lord of the Wasting Tower traditionally gave one almost god-like powers. Beyond that, pretty much all the yugoloths I assumed would appear do show up, other than, oddly, the piscoloth.

Same with the demons and devils, those I felt were missing from the MM have pretty much all made appearances here.

Sadly, other than the expected devils, demons, and yugoloths, there isn't much in the way of other outer planar creatures, not even the demodands.

And there isn't any surprise appendices or later chapters - the Bestiary goes all the way to page 252 with the yagnoloths...


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## MonsterEnvy (May 12, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Are we certainly that there isn't anything on the following page...?




Yes actually. The guy has the two pages after it also previewed. The Monsters by environment tables.


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## Parmandur (May 12, 2018)

So, the Yagnoloth is on page 252, so there will not be significant appendix material, just the lists.


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## Demetrios1453 (May 12, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Are we certainly that there isn't anything on the following page...?




Going by the pages we have:

Bael - 170
Geryon - 173
Hutijin - 175
Moloch - 177
Titivilus - 179
Zariel - 180

Not much room there for any extras, other than between Bael and Geryon. Dispater is the only one who would fit there, and if there is only one higher than CR 26, they would have been able to fit it on this page. It seems more likely that Bael takes up 2 pages and we'll have some Hell artwork on page 172.


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## Parmandur (May 12, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> Yes actually. The guy has the two pages after it also previewed. The Monsters by environment tables.



Gotcha, the math works out.


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## MonsterEnvy (May 13, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> I, too, wonder what an "oinoloth" is. If it were the traditional Oinoloth, it should have a much higher CR, as being lord of the Wasting Tower traditionally gave one almost god-like powers. Beyond that, pretty much all the yugoloths I assumed would appear do show up, other than, oddly, the piscoloth.




Yeah. The Oinoloth is supposed to be a unique being. Yet for some reason the CR ratings put it below an Ultroloth. And your right strangely the Piscoloth is missing, which is odd cause they are one of the more iconic Yugoloth's from what I know. Maybe the Monsters by CR table made a mistake and called the Piscoloth the Oinoloth by mistake.


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## Demetrios1453 (May 13, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> Yeah. The Oinoloth is supposed to be a unique being. Yet for some reason the CR ratings put it below an Ultroloth. And your right strangely the Piscoloth is missing, which is odd cause they are one of the more iconic Yugoloth's from what I know. Maybe the Monsters by CR table made a mistake and called the Piscoloth the Oinoloth by mistake.





Maybe they someone got the numbers reversed when entering it, and it's actually CR 21 (which would be reasonable)? 

I can't see it being a mistake for piscoloth, as they are definitely mid-tier yugoloths, and would be around CR 9 or so, not nearer arcanaloths and utroloths. Granted, they have switched CR levels around before (see the abishai right in this list, for example!), and that would make far more sense than it being *the* Oinoloth. Or perhaps they've created a new yugoloth, based out of the Wasting Tower, with powers of waste and decay? In the end, however, this leaves piscoloths as the only yugoloth type that originated in 1e that hasn't gotten an update (other than the guardian daemons, who are at best forgettable), which is a pity, since if you want to update an aquatic based yugoloths, the crustacean piscoloths are far more unique than the hezru-like hydroloths, who did get an update...


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## gyor (May 13, 2018)

I noticed that some non traditional races of demons and devils are in,  like the Dybbuks. 

 Looking at what falls into what sections I'm fairly certain that Elder Tempest,  Phoenix,  Leviathan,  Zaratan are the Elder Elementals. 

 Molydeus are CR 21 Demons who used to be Angels,  is it by accident that they are CR 21 like Solars?  The Solar now have none Archfiend equals. 

 I believe The Lonely,  The Angry,  The Hungry,  The Lost are all Sorrowsworn,  but 4e had no Sorrowsworn like these. In 4e Sorrowsorn we're ascended Shadar Kai and in 5e Shadar Kai are elves descended from the fey/celestials,  so could the Sorrowsworn be Shadar Kai Fey?  Do Sorrowsorn still count as elves. 

 I noticed that Eldarin are all CR 10 and called Winter/Autumn/Summer/Spring Eldarin,  but the more traditional celestial Eldarin aren't mentioned. Given that all the seasonal eldarin are CR 10, I think they might make the celestial versions a templates for regular Eldarin. Maybe recycle the name Celdarin which we're half elf and half celestial Eldarin in 3e,  just make them full Celestial Elves now


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## Demetrios1453 (May 13, 2018)

Video review of the book from Bell of Lost Souls. Basically a page by page look at the book:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bXPWbYAX4Q


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## Chaosmancer (May 13, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Are we certainly that there isn't anything on the following page...?




Well, we only get Zariel as a Archduchess, but I saw Titivillus who I believe was a Duke of Hell. So, we're getting a few of the Dukes and maybe a duchess or two. Which is at least something.


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## MonsterEnvy (May 13, 2018)

Chaosmancer said:


> Well, we only get Zariel as a Archduchess, but I saw Titivillus who I believe was a Duke of Hell. So, we're getting a few of the Dukes and maybe a duchess or two. Which is at least something.




We get all the Dukes in the MM2 other then Amon.


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## Kobold Avenger (May 13, 2018)

I like they were getting the Demon types associated with certain Demon Lords.  Such as:
Armanite = Grazz't
Alkilith = Jubilex
Maurezhi = Orcus
Bulezau = Baphomet


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## gyor (May 13, 2018)

Watching video of the book, one of my favourite parts was the Elder Evils section right after the Star Spawn, with templates for various cults like Haask of Hargut and Atropus, both personal favourites of mine. Haask was a Doppelganger Batchari Lord who later ruled over a Minatuar Kingdom when during a war he summoned Hargut from the Grey Wastes.

 Bane, Bhaal, and Mykul got ahold of him and Hargut and fused Haask to Hargut. 

 Atropus was an undead world that preyed upon other worlds. Last time I looked at Atropus it was trying to eat Gylph, a world in Realm space ruled by Mindflayets with jelly like oceans.


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## gyor (May 13, 2018)

Kobold Avenger said:


> I like they were getting the Demon types associated with certain Demon Lords.  Such as:
> Armanite = Grazz't
> Alkilith = Jubilex
> Maurezhi = Orcus
> Bulezau = Baphomet




 I don't think those races are exclusive to any demon lord, I know of one Maurezhi that served Grazzt.


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## MonsterEnvy (May 13, 2018)

gyor said:


> I don't think those races are exclusive to any demon lord, I know of one Maurezhi that served Grazzt.




They are not exclusive. But they were created by those Demon Lords. 

Anyway we seem to get a power balance among the Demon Lords and Devils. Dukes are weaker then Demon Lords on average, while Archdukes are stronger on average.


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## GarrettKP (May 15, 2018)

So I didn’t immediately recognize some of the Archdevils, but I found them now. 

Bael is the first Archdevil. He is a chief Lieutenant of Mammon and detailed in the original Monster Manual 2. 

Titivilus is also in it, and he is Dispaters nuncio. Also from the Monster Manual 2. 

Finally Hutijin is an Archdevil in service to Mephistopheles. He also is from the Monster Manual 2. (I sense a pattern). 

Then we have the 3 we know, Moloch, Geryon, and Zariel.


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## MonsterEnvy (May 15, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> So I didn’t immediately recognize some of the Archdevils, but I found them now.
> 
> Bael is the first Archdevil. He is a chief Lieutenant of Mammon and detailed in the original Monster Manual 2.
> 
> ...




Moloch is also from the Monster Manual 2. I think Geryon is the only Archdevil from the MM 1.


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## Li Shenron (May 15, 2018)

Sounds strange to feature the Blood War as a main chapter, but only the leaders of one side of it. It's like "Mordenkainen's Incomplete Tome of Foes". I know design work is expensive, but in terms of space the Lot9 could have fitted in place of the gnomes and halflings fluff, two races who aren't even much foes of anyone.


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## MonsterEnvy (May 15, 2018)

Li Shenron said:


> Sounds strange to feature the Blood War as a main chapter, but only the leaders of one side of it. It's like "Mordenkainen's Incomplete Tome of Foes". I know design work is expensive, but in terms of space the Lot9 could have fitted in place of the gnomes and halflings fluff, two races who aren't even much foes of anyone.




What do you mean we get both Archdevils and Demon Lords in this book.


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## Morrus (May 15, 2018)

Li Shenron said:


> Sounds strange to feature the Blood War as a main chapter, but only the leaders of one side of it. It's like "Mordenkainen's Incomplete Tome of Foes". I know design work is expensive, but in terms of space the Lot9 could have fitted in place of the gnomes and halflings fluff, two races who aren't even much foes of anyone.




There are both devil and demon archfiends in the book.


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## Sword of Spirit (May 15, 2018)

Morrus said:


> There are both devil and demon archfiends in the book.




Yes, but we've got the top leaders of the demons, and only the second tier leaders of the devils. There is a lack of equivalency.

I'm sure there is a devil themed adventure coming up at some point--they gave them just as much attention in the MM and the DMG as they did the demons. They may have given us lesser archdevils in this book because the Lords of the Nine are slated for the adventure.


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## MonsterEnvy (May 15, 2018)

Well the one Lord of the Nine they did give us is the leader of the Blood War battlefront for the devils.


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## Chaosmancer (May 16, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> Well the one Lord of the Nine they did give us is the leader of the Blood War battlefront for the devils.




Also, and I hate trying to call up Lore that I'm not terribly familiar with, but aren't most versions of the Nine Hells set up so that you *must* pass through Avernus to reach the Second layer and so on?

If that is the case Zariel would be the only Lord of the Nine to directly interact with the Blood War, while the others are off dealing with other problems and concerns. 


Not saying this is a good excuse, I wanted all the Lords of the Nine in this book. The Hells have been playing a big part in my most recent campaigns and I was hoping for some additional inspiration getting handed to me. But, I wouldn't say it doesn't make sense if the lens is the Blood War.


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## MonsterEnvy (May 16, 2018)

Chaosmancer said:


> Also, and I hate trying to call up Lore that I'm not terribly familiar with, but aren't most versions of the Nine Hells set up so that you *must* pass through Avernus to reach the Second layer and so on?
> 
> If that is the case Zariel would be the only Lord of the Nine to directly interact with the Blood War, while the others are off dealing with other problems and concerns.
> 
> ...




This is correct. There are no portals to any other layer of Hell other then Avernus as decreed by Asmodeus who destoryed them all. (Except for what is possibly a portal that leads anywhere at the bottom of Nessus.)


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## Demetrios1453 (May 16, 2018)

Sword of Spirit said:


> Yes, but we've got the top leaders of the demons, and only the second tier leaders of the devils. There is a lack of equivalency.
> 
> I'm sure there is a devil themed adventure coming up at some point--they gave them just as much attention in the MM and the DMG as they did the demons. They may have given us lesser archdevils in this book because the Lords of the Nine are slated for the adventure.




I'm beginning to that as well, and maybe not just a generic "planar" book or adventure. An all-out devil-themed adventure that will in some way feature the Nine Hells, and serve both as adventure and setting guide to the Hells like ToA was for Chult. Since they've left out the vast majority of the Lords of the Nine from this book, they must be saving them for something special that features them somehow...

Perhaps they could update and expand "A Paladin in Hell"? Not only was it a module, but a piece of art that appeared (with variations) in 1e, 2e, and 3e! Time for its 5e version?


----------

