# Gygax Magazine? [UPDATE 3 - Electric Boogaloo]



## Morrus

Is this real? [UPDATE - it seems it's for real - we've dug around and uncovered more info since this item was posted and inserted it into this post]. At first there was very little information, other than a claim that "Gygax Magazine" is being produced by "TSR" in December - a company which hasn't existed since 1997 (there's a website for this new TSR here - it's called "TSR Games"). Plus there's no clear connection to Gail Gygax or anyone else in Gary Gygax's family. [Update below- the Gygax family is involved].

A "whois" search on the domain name reveals it's owned by a Jayson Elliot, who has a website, JaysonElliot.com and has links to something called "Permission Magazine" (a 'gothic lifestyle' magazine - website here). Anyone know who he is? It does seem like he's actually a magazine producer, so maybe there's something in this - but in that case why the references to "TSR", a long-extinct company? Additionally (thanks to @dreadgazebo , below) he's appeared in a celebrity D&D game, and has a D&D podcast.

I have contacted Jayson Elliot via Twitter - I'll let you know if I get a reply. Seems this thing is real, though.

Update - Jayson has posted below in this thread. It seems the Gygax family IS involved in this venture - which turns it into something awesome. 



	
		Hi guys, this is Jayson. I'm the editor for Gygax Magazine.

Gygax Magazine is myself, Ernie Gygax, Luke Gygax, Tim Kask, James Carpio, and Jim Wampler. Our first issue is out in December; since it's not finished yet, we've been pretty quiet about things until it's ready.

Just to address some of the questions, I thought it was best that I leave a reply. We do own the trademark for TSR, and have since December of 2011. We are a new company, not the old TSR, as they were purchased by Wizards in the '90s. The trademark was abandoned about nine years ago, and we registered it in 2011. 

We decided the best thing to release first as TSR was a gaming magazine, because we wanted a way to bridge the traditions of the old guard with the awesome new games that are out today. 
		
	


Another update! We've been contacted by Gail Gygax (Gary's widow) who has asked us to add this statement:



	
		Please respect my wished to change the caption of this thread to:

Gygax Magazine? {UPDATE -, does not have the support of the "Gygax Family Estate" }

I wish to clear up any confusion I am the proper owner of the use of the name of my late husband, E. Gary Gygax. And furthermore would ask respect from his public and children from his first marriage, who are fully aware I own all rights to the use of his name and likeness, and all intellectual properties.

We have previously informed Jason Elliot of my ownership rights.

I can understand the enthusiasm for this project and will remain neutral in regard to its merits however, not at the expense of the Gary Gygax Estate, which represents his wishes.
		
	


Two more updates:

The Gygax Memorial Fund had this to say in response to an email from David Flor:



	
		Thank you so much for bringing this project to our attention. We are aware of a group from NYC, which includes Jayson Elliot, that bought the TSR trademark. Not sure if they can legally use it in the way they want to.

In answer to your question, Gail Gygax, Gary's widow, represents Gary Gygax's estate, and is the sole owner of all trademark for the name and likeness of Gary Gygax.

With regard to this magazine, we were approached by Jayson Elliott's group about a year ago and were not interested in a business relationship with them, as they presented no specific business plan for this magazine, yet were requesting use of the trademark. Therefore, this magazine does not have any legitimate endorsement by the representative of the Gary Gygax estate or Gygax family.

Please feel free to share this information.
		
	


Of course, nobody has used "Gary Gygax" as a trademark here. Luke and Ernie have simply used their own surname, "Gygax". Luke Gygax has asked me to remove the reference to the Gygax Estate not supporting the project from the thread title (the one which Gail Gygax asked me to add), pointing out that he and Ernie are both involved and the use of the Gygax name - their name - is legit. So I've gone with "Electric Boogaloo" rather than keep switching it back and forth!

Luke has posted in this thread to clarify things a little with an elegant statement:



	
		At this time Gail is not a part of Gygax Magazine. Personally, I hope that she decides to come onboard in the future. All the posts from Gygax Magazine staff I've seen were clear that this project is something Ernie and I are involved in as part of a larger team including Tim Kask, Jayson Elliott, James Carpio and Jim Wampler. 

Gygax Magazine is supported by the Gygax family members who are actually gamers. Ernie (aka Ernest Gary Gygax Jr.) was the first person to playtest D&D, played numerous iconic characters in Greyhawk and worked for TSR through the 1980's. I cut my teeth on gaming and feel passionate about the positive aspects that gaming brings to people's lives. Gygax Magazine is a way for us to share our love of gaming both Old School and current systems with the gaming community. We are focused on producing a quality magazine and we hope that you will take the time to read the first issue in December.

Luke Gygax
		
	

​


----------



## Akodoken

*Gygax Magazine?*

One of the guys from OP shared this on FB and we are not sure how legit it is. Does anyone know about this Gygax Magazine which is supposed to launch in December? It says it is being published by TSR but I didn't think that was possible.

http://gygaxmagazine.com/


----------



## Morrus

Well, TSR does not exist, and hasn't since 1997.

Gygax is not a trademark. It's also the real name of Gary Gygax's family.

Smells fishy to me. I'd think carefully before entering your email address.


----------



## Henry

If it's a fraud (which I'm  inclined to think) it's definitely trying to evoke old-school Dragon Magazine and its trade dress. Whether Gail and her company are backing it, I have no clue, because I doubt WotC would be crass enough to try and cash in on Gary's name for something without her consent.

EDIT: Name registration reveals the following, so who is Jayson Elliott?
EDIT2: Jayson Elliott and Permission Magazine is a Goth/Lifestyle mag -- interesting. Never heard of them.
Permission Magazine




		Code:
	

Registration Service Provided By: Namecheap.com
Contact: 
Visit: http://namecheap.com
        
Domain name: gygaxmagazine.com

Registrant Contact:
   Permission Magazine
   Jayson Elliot ()
   
   Fax: 
   200 E. 10th Street #511
   New York, NY 10003
   US

Administrative Contact:
   Permission Magazine
   Jayson Elliot ()
   +1.3232845312
   Fax: +1.5555555555
   200 E. 10th Street #511
   New York, NY 10003
   US

Technical Contact:
   Permission Magazine
   Jayson Elliot ()
   +1.3232845312
   Fax: +1.5555555555
   200 E. 10th Street #511
   New York, NY 10003
   US

Status: Locked

Name Servers:
   ns1.jaysonelliot.com
   ns2.jaysonelliot.com
   
Creation date: 04 Apr 2012 20:59:00
Expiration date: 04 Apr 2013 12:59:00


----------



## Akodoken

Thanks for the update. Very fishy.


----------



## dreadgazebo

Actually,

This guy runs a D&D podcast according to his twitter bio, and he's played in "celeb" D&D games w/ Frank Metzer, Cam Banks, etc. (http://www.secretfiregames.com/2011/08/28/i-con-2011-celebrity-dnd-game/)

According to the NYS rolls TSR is still an active company (http://twitpic.com/bevxmx) and Lorraine is still running it.

This Jayson guy runs a magazine and seems to be legit, still a lot of questions but I don't think it is malicious, though I did at first.

Hope this helps!

Jerry LeNeave of Obsidian Portal / The Dread Gazebo


----------



## jonesy

This also points at ns1.jaysonelliot.com and ns2.jaysonelliot.com:

http://tsrgames.com/


----------



## dreadgazebo

Also, it could be that NYS just hasn't removed the records according to [MENTION=93931]TheAngryDM[/MENTION]


----------



## Morrus

Whatever the case, I find the use of "Gygax" and "TSR" to be kinda icky. If he thinks he's got a good magazine, it should stand on its own feet, not steal cache from the legacies of people and organizations which have passed away.

I've tweeted him; hopefully I'll get a reply:



			
				Tweet said:
			
		

> Hey. You're the guy behind "Gygax Magazine". What's up with that name, and "TSR Games"?


----------



## jonesy

dreadgazebo said:


> Good find.



Morrus already mentioned it in the first post. I just checked whether it had the same name server as the one Henry posted.


----------



## darjr

He posted a 'trippy' character sheet to his g+ page.

https://plus.google.com/104177045387090507216/posts


----------



## TheAngryDM

Angry here. As a small business accountant working in NYS, I can almost guarantee that TSR Hobbies, Inc. simply has not been removed from the state records. NYS Dept. of State is very, very bad about clearing defunct entities. I run into it ALL THE TIME. Especially with a corporation from another state.

This whole thing smacks of paranoia. There is no reason to suspect this is a scam. The guy publishes another magazine, his address is legitimate, and he has a background in gaming you can find on the internet fairly easily. Why entertain the possibility that he's not actually getting set to publish some sort of old-school tribute to D&D gaming? There's caution and skepticism, then there's witch hunting. This is the latter.

Now, you might feel it is disingenuous to use the TSR or Gygax name even if it is legal and legit. But knowing nothing about it, I think its a little early to make that call. I mean, we let whole game systems get away with basically republishing entire rule sets as retroclones.

Has anyone just signed up for the info? Has anyone e-mailed the guy and politely expressed an interest in his plans and asked for information? This is rapidly approaching torch-and-pitchfork here people. We're better than this.


----------



## mudbunny

I signed up with my email addy.


----------



## Morrus

TheAngryDM said:


> This whole thing smacks of paranoia. There is no reason to suspect this is a scam.




Not at all; that's not an accurate summary of this thread's tone at all. We've - in this very thread - completely revised our opinion, but _only_ because we had to dig and research. None of the information you cite is on that website - just Gygax's name and a reference to "TSR". Based solely on that info, it looked waay dodgy. This is what we had, in total:
Gygax Magazine from TSR. Your email addy, please!​Now we've spent a couple of hours digging into WHOIS records and finding out more info, I agree it doesn't seem to be a scam, no. I still find it a little distasteful, though.



> Has anyone just signed up for the info? Has anyone e-mailed the guy and politely expressed an interest in his plans and asked for information? This is rapidly approaching torch-and-pitchfork here people. We're better than this.




No it's not. This thread seems to me to be focused primarily on learning about this person and his plans. Yes, I have attempted to contact him.

Bear in mind none of this info is up-front. We had to dig for it. I really do not think it unreasonable to be suspicious based on the info he gave us. All the info you say alleviates that suspicion we had to find for ourselves. And we did and arrived at the conclusion it wasn't a scam. No pitchforks have been waved; skeptical research has been undertaken and information obtained.


----------



## technoextreme

Ehhh... I knew about this guy ages ago.  Its a classic trademark trick since they do expire you can in fact legally obtain the name from patent and trademark office.


----------



## darjr

Wait, the podcast is roll for initiative!

Ha! I'm way behind in listening but it's been in my list of favorites for quite a long time.

As far as the podcast goes it's legit. I think they've had Larry Elmore and Frank Mentzer and Margaret Weiss and Tracy Hickman and a few others on their podcast.

www.rfipodcast.com


----------



## I'm A Banana

TheAngryDM said:
			
		

> This whole thing smacks of paranoia. There is no reason to suspect this is a scam. The guy publishes another magazine, his address is legitimate, and he has a background in gaming you can find on the internet fairly easily. Why entertain the possibility that he's not actually getting set to publish some sort of old-school tribute to D&D gaming? There's caution and skepticism, then there's witch hunting. This is the latter.




Prolly because when you use the name of a fondly-regarded dead man to try and sell your magazine, you sort of lose the benefit of the doubt. 

Witch-hunting and paranoia? Man, when someone you don't know and haven't heard of uses an appeal to emotion to get your e-mail address on the internet, the only sane reaction is caution and verification. If you disagree, I've got some buddies in Lagos who need your help with an inheritance problem, if you aren't too paranoid...


----------



## darjr

Maybe he's got permission to use the name? Maybe the web site isn't supposed to be public, maybe it's a pie in the sky dream idea that somebody accidentally clicked the publish button on. It happens a lot.


----------



## Morrus

darjr said:


> Maybe he's got permission to use the name? Maybe the web site isn't supposed to be public, maybe it's a pie in the sky dream idea that somebody accidentally clicked the publish button on. It happens a lot.




Could be, could be.


----------



## technoextreme

darjr said:


> Maybe he's got permission to use the name? Maybe the web site isn't supposed to be public, maybe it's a pie in the sky dream idea that somebody accidentally clicked the publish button on. It happens a lot.



Actually in the case of names you don't need to.


----------



## darjr

technoextreme said:


> Actually in the case of names you don't need to.




good point but I didn't mean to speak legally. For me it wouldn't be a legal question, that would be the least of it. Maybe I should have typed 'Blessing' instead of 'Permission'.


----------



## technoextreme

darjr said:


> good point but I didn't mean to speak legally. For me it wouldn't be a legal question, that would be the least of it. Maybe I should have typed 'Blessing' instead of 'Permission'.



Actually I missed the scummy part.  Apparently he is actually claiming a trademark for the name Gygax which I don't think is legal nor is even on the PTO website as being registered.


----------



## Morrus

technoextreme said:


> Actually I missed the scummy part. Apparently he is actually claiming a trademark for the name Gygax which I don't think is legal nor is even on the PTO website as being registered.




Well, for "Gygax Magazine", not "Gygax".  And it's a TM nor an (r), so it isn't a registered trademark.


----------



## Akodoken

I have sent him a tweet as well. At this point I am more curious than anything else.


----------



## dreadgazebo

I've had myself and several of my followers tweet him, zero response so far.

Honestly thought, the Gygax foundation is pretty public and enthusiastic about all of its ongoign projects and plans. To me this seems like a guy who's trying to capitalize on the name, and taking the opportunity of the news of KQ closing its press doors as further fuel for his business plans. Not saying it's malicious, but it does seem a bit dirty to me personally.

If he has/had the good graces of the Gygax family, where are they on this and why haven't we heard about it yet? My two cents.


----------



## dreadgazebo

Well hopefully, someone somewhere will make some kind of public statement soon and we can all stop speculating. I've gotta get back to work


----------



## bonchon

*Hi, it's Jayson*

Hi guys, this is Jayson. I'm the editor for Gygax Magazine.

Gygax Magazine is myself, Ernie Gygax, Luke Gygax, Tim Kask, James Carpio, and Jim Wampler. Our first issue is out in December; since it's not finished yet, we've been pretty quiet about things until it's ready.

Just to address some of the questions, I thought it was best that I leave a reply. We do own the trademark for TSR, and have since December of 2011. We are a new company, not the old TSR, as they were purchased by Wizards in the '90s. The trademark was abandoned about nine years ago, and we registered it in 2011. 

We decided the best thing to release first as TSR was a gaming magazine, because we wanted a way to bridge the traditions of the old guard with the awesome new games that are out today. 

Feel free to ask me anything you like, I'll do my best to answer!


----------



## Morrus

bonchon said:


> Gygax Magazine is myself, Ernie Gygax, Luke Gygax, Tim Kask, James Carpio, and Jim Wampler!




And with that sentence, the whole thing turns into AWESOMENESS!

I'm delighted to hear the Gygax family is involved.  Good luck with the magazine!


----------



## TheAngryDM

I have just finished speaking to Mr. Elliot via e-mail, raising the various concerns that have been brought up about the project. He provided me with a bit of information that he said I could reveal. 

The use of the TSR name is legitimate. However, it is a new company, not a continuation of the old company.

Ernie and Luke Gygax are partners in the project, hence their use of the name Gygax Magazine. They also have a number of other folks from the TSR era, including [FONT=Arial,sans-serif]Tim Kask, James M. Ward, Len Lakofka, and Phil Foglio.

All in all, this looks very exciting and it will be hard to wait until next December.

(EDIT: Damn, his response beat mine by two minutes. I wanted to look cool. ;-) )

[/FONT]


----------



## bonchon

dreadgazebo said:


> To me this seems like a guy who's trying to capitalize on the name, and taking the opportunity of the news of KQ closing its press doors as further fuel for his business plans. Not saying it's malicious, but it does seem a bit dirty to me personally.




Just for the record, we've been working on the magazine for months now, and I happen to be a fan of KQ, and I'm incredibly bummed that they're stopping publication. It hurts the whole industry when a great magazine like Kobold Quarterly goes away, and I hope they'll be able to start up again someday. They're still making the rest of their products, and I think they're going to continue to grow and get better in the future.


----------



## Akodoken

With that information I am now pretty excited.

I wish your project all the best.


----------



## Henry

bonchon said:


> Hi guys, this is Jayson. I'm the editor for Gygax Magazine.
> 
> Gygax Magazine is myself, Ernie Gygax, Luke Gygax, Tim Kask, James Carpio, and Jim Wampler. Our first issue is out in December; since it's not finished yet, we've been pretty quiet about things until it's ready.




First of all, Jayson, welcome to the forums! It's great to hear from you in person -- all us rabid fans love that kinda stuff. 

Second, glad to hear that Luke, Ernie, and so many of the old guard are with you on the project. Glad to hear about it, I'll be looking forward with interest, and good luck on the project for all of you!

-Henry


----------



## jonesy

bonchon said:


> Hi guys, this is Jayson. I'm the editor for Gygax Magazine.
> 
> Gygax Magazine is myself, Ernie Gygax, Luke Gygax, Tim Kask, James Carpio, and Jim Wampler. Our first issue is out in December; since it's not finished yet, we've been pretty quiet about things until it's ready.



Because being quiet always works so well on the Internet? 

The best of luck with the magazine to you all!


----------



## Falstaff

Jayson - will the new TSR produce other products? Maybe modules or campaign settings? If so, what system would be used?


----------



## bonchon

Falstaff said:


> Jayson - will the new TSR produce other products? Maybe modules or campaign settings? If so, what system would be used?




All our plans for other products will be later on. Right now, the important thing for us is to make the best magazine we can.


----------



## Falstaff

bonchon said:


> All our plans for other products will be later on. Right now, the important thing for us is to make the best magazine we can.




Any idea as to what game systems the new magazine will support?


----------



## Thulcondar

I'm also very intrigued by this. With all those members of the Old Guard involved, I am cautiously optimistic about what this magazine could produce. Very much looking forward to hearing more.

Joe


----------



## darjr

That is so freaking cool!


----------



## Mark CMG

bonchon said:


> Hi guys, this is Jayson. I'm the editor for Gygax Magazine.
> 
> Gygax Magazine is myself, Ernie Gygax, Luke Gygax, Tim Kask, James Carpio, and Jim Wampler. Our first issue is out in December; since it's not finished yet, we've been pretty quiet about things until it's ready.
> 
> Just to address some of the questions, I thought it was best that I leave a reply. We do own the trademark for TSR, and have since December of 2011. We are a new company, not the old TSR, as they were purchased by Wizards in the '90s. The trademark was abandoned about nine years ago, and we registered it in 2011.
> 
> We decided the best thing to release first as TSR was a gaming magazine, because we wanted a way to bridge the traditions of the old guard with the awesome new games that are out today.
> 
> Feel free to ask me anything you like, I'll do my best to answer!






Best of luck in your new venture.  I've been itching to promote this more vigorously for some time now and am glad the cat is finally out of the bag.  Huzzah!


----------



## Flexor the Mighty!

Wow.  This sounds really cool.  Hopefully this takes off and they are able to put out some quality stuff.  I'll be watching out for it.


----------



## Alzrius

I want to be cautiously optimistic about what Gygax Magazine will offer, but it's more honest to say that I'm nervous.

The ubiquity of the internet and the rise of the small-press publication (a la PDFs and print-on-demand) have allowed for a heretofore unprecedented level of "specialization" (for lack of a better term) in RPGs. Simply put, you can find plenty of products - and fan-based websites and forums - about almost any RPG now. Those that you can't tend to have their rules and intellectual property rigidly guarded.

Given that, I'm not sure what Gygax Magazine will offer, but I worry that I won't be the target audience. Simply put, a multi-RPG magazine seems destined to be looked down on because people know that they can get other products that focus exclusively on their RPG of choice. Likewise, if the magazine does focus on just one single RPG, then it severely cuts back on whom it appeals to.

It might just eschew mechanics altogether and focus on the history and state of the hobby, but I fear that that stance will only allow for so much to be written, and that interest might quickly wane.

Given that (based on the name alone) the magazine appears to be focused on "old-school" gaming, I suspect that it's most likely to focus on old-school RPGs under the OGL that use similar mechanics; most likely Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord, and OSRIC, but that's just my guess; even then though, this will be unfortunately limited to generic new material, as WotC owning the original TSR will prevent us from seeing anything like an update of Gary's original Castle Greyhawk - the old campaigns are WotC's provenance now, and theirs alone.

This isn't meant to be a downer; I'm very excited that Gygax Magazine is a reality and not a hoax, but when I think of what it could practically offer, I can't help but feel somewhat pessimistic.

With any luck, I'll be proven very wrong.


----------



## Scarbonac

I has the goosebumps.


----------



## darjr

I guess it's both, permission and blessing. And it sorta slipped out. HA! Cool.


----------



## meshwork

just from seeing all the preemptive "malicious intent" threads - barf.

Jayson is a great and classy person. 

he co-hosted a 1st edition AD&D podcast and has well thought insights, is _very_ sensitive to respecting "the game" and its history. he's smart, has a real level head, articulate and has a ton of passion for this. definitely excited when i read he was involved (along with the rest of the icons mentioned!)

i played in his 1st Edition Skype game and he ran it very well with a lot of class and patience. it was an awesome time as i was just dusting off the books to get back into the hobby. glad he stopped doing that and the podcast for this.

real solid person!
and an awesome idea. backed 100%.


----------



## jonesy

meshwork said:


> just from seeing all the preemptive "malicious intent" threads - barf.



To be entirely fair, you do realize what it looks like when a company name that has been gone for 15 years (12 if you count the products released under the TSR logo by WotC) reappears and starts advertising itself?


----------



## Mark CMG

jonesy said:


> To be entirely fair, you do realize what it looks like when a company name that has been gone for 15 years (12 if you count the products released under the TSR logo by WotC) reappears and starts advertising itself?






Like they're getting the band back together?


----------



## ColonelHardisson

Mark CMG said:


> Like they're getting the band back together?




If you know who "they" are, yeah.


----------



## jonesy

Mark CMG said:


> Like they're getting the band back together?



Fugees. That's all I'm saying.


----------



## Mark CMG

http://www.gamersandgrognards.blogspot.com/2012/11/tsr-gygax-magazine-update-from-tim-kask.html


----------



## darjr

Cory Doctorow and James Ward and Rich Burlew and and...

wow cool.


----------



## Alphastream

I'm generally wary of efforts by different entities to capitalize upon a defunct business or product name. On the other hand, the history of TSR and Gygax... geez, who knows what's right?

And, I'm always glad to see new companies and new ideas enter the gaming space. It will be cool to see how this new offering shapes up. There are so many ways to take a gaming magazine and so many pitfalls in the industry. One of the problems magazines face is the high amount of quality content available on the internet (for free). What's Upcoming? Covered by excellent bloggers. Product Reviews? Covered by tons of fans and sites like BoardGameGeek. Interviews with top talent? Covered by blogs and podcasts. Game content? Everywhere. 

Quality does matter, and there is a market. But it is a tough one. KQ did a really good job, and it even tried to appeal to two key demographics. 

In the end, I hope the best for this effort and look forward to what it can offer. As with anything new, I hope it furthers our hobby!


----------



## Agamon

Nerdgasm time.  I'm rereading the old Dragon mags right now (on ish #52) and have though much recently about a new OSR-type magazine.  Awesome news!


----------



## Treebore

I'm buying in.


----------



## Man in the Funny Hat

I, for one, welcome our new Overlords and wish to subscribe to their newsletter...


----------



## Knightfall

This makes my day. I was really bummed about the cancellation of Kobold Quarterly. It will be great to have a new RPG magazine to buy, and the fact that it is going to be filled with tons of old school goodness makes it even better.


----------



## Thulcondar

Seeing the additional information from Tim Kask makes my optimism somewhat less cautious. I do wonder at the economics of starting a print RPG magazine given the current state of the economy and the gaming hobby/industry as a whole, but there certainly are options that can be used to make it work, such as PoD. 

And, there will be a certain audience (which includes myself) that will subscribe to the print edition for the express purpose of supporting some of the Old Guard names and the projects with which they're associated. 

I'll buy in for a year just on spec, assuming they're not charging some ludicrous amount of money per issue. 

Joe


----------



## trancejeremy

Thulcondar said:


> Seeing the additional information from Tim Kask makes my optimism somewhat less cautious. I do wonder at the economics of starting a print RPG magazine given the current state of the economy and the gaming hobby/industry as a whole, but there certainly are options that can be used to make it work, such as PoD.
> 
> And, there will be a certain audience (which includes myself) that will subscribe to the print edition for the express purpose of supporting some of the Old Guard names and the projects with which they're associated.
> 
> I'll buy in for a year just on spec, assuming they're not charging some ludicrous amount of money per issue.




From the blurb it really sounds like they will be supporting modern games, which personally, I have less than zero interest in.

I hate to say it, but I think game magazines work better when they only focus on 1 (or maybe 2 games).  White Dwarf/The Dragon was good when it focused on D&D and Traveller, Challenge when it focused on Traveller , etc.


----------



## mattcolville

This is a print magazine?


----------



## JohnRTroy

While I think a lot of folk understand this already, since there may be some confusion.

It should be made clear that Gygax magazine has no rights to any of Gary's non-WoTC owned IP, that is all still owned by Trigee/Gygax Games/Gail Gygax.  She is not involved or working with them in this endeavor at all.  Since the term "Gygax" and "Gygax family" can be confusing in this context, I just needed to clear that up.


If anybody has questions for Gail on this, you can reach her on her Facebook page).


----------



## darjr

mattcolville said:


> This is a print magazine?




Print was stated as a goal.



> Publishing quarterly in print as well as PDF and iPad
> editions, we hope each issue of Gygax will be an
> anticipated and treasured addition to any gamer’s
> library.




from the gamers and grognards blog link in the post above.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/news/3...date-gygax-family-involved-5.html#post6052064


----------



## Dragonhelm

It is entirely possible that this new TSR _may_ have rights to gain TSR.com. TSR.com currently points to WotC's D&D site. 

All of that being said, it would be an extremely grey area and I would not want to cross the WotC/Hasbro legal juggernaut.


----------



## mattcolville

darjr said:


> Print was stated as a goal.




Good lord. Why I wonder?


----------



## Mark CMG

mattcolville said:


> Good lord. Why I wonder?





I think they know that there will be a fair contingent of old schoolers who are likely to collect the issues aside from just being interested in the content.


----------



## Thulcondar

Mark CMG said:


> I think they know that there will be a fair contingent of old schoolers who are likely to collect the issues aside from just being interested in the content.




And thirty years from now, we can blog exhaustively about the content of the magazines. 

I KID! I KID!

Joe


----------



## Tinner

This is becoming a disturbing trend in gaming.
At GenCon this year, Red Brick announced that they were becoming FASA, reviving that old dead company name.
Now we see TSR getting the zombie treatment.
I have to say I'm not a fan of this trend. New FASA is not, and can not be old FASA. A FASA without Shadowrun and Battletech is ... well it feels like false advertising.
Same can be said about this new TSR imo. If TSR doesn't have D&D, then it's not really the TSR we knew and loved.
At which point it just feels like your'e preying on nostalgia.
In wrestling terms, it's a cheap pop.


----------



## Mark CMG

Thulcondar said:


> And thirty years from now, we can blog exhaustively about the content of the magazines.
> 
> I KID! I KID!
> 
> Joe





You might kid but we both know we will if we're still blogging.


----------



## Mark CMG

Tinner said:


> This is becoming a disturbing trend in gaming.
> At GenCon this year, Red Brick announced that they were becoming FASA, reviving that old dead company name.
> Now we see TSR getting the zombie treatment.
> I have to say I'm not a fan of this trend. New FASA is not, and can not be old FASA. A FASA without Shadowrun and Battletech is ... well it feels like false advertising.
> Same can be said about this new TSR imo. If TSR doesn't have D&D, then it's not really the TSR we knew and loved.
> At which point it just feels like your'e preying on nostalgia.
> In wrestling terms, it's a cheap pop.





Setting aside FASA and Shadowrun as unimportant to the discussion I will pursue regarding your contention . . .

That's an interesting take and brings up the philosophical debate about replacing every plank and nail in a ship, yet still calling it by its christened name.  Many of the games the magazine will seemingly support use most of those planks and nails in their design, and certainly if one looks toward the retroclones, one can see they are designed more closely to the D&D of TSR than the current D&D is.  Your contention therefore raises the question, "If WotC doesn't really have TSR's D&D as their flagship product (they seem to be selling a few of the old stuff in reprint but that's hardly a large portion of their business model), then is it really the company of D&D?"  (Let's leave aside opinions of which game or edition anyone might personally prefer.)


----------



## Morrus

We've been contacted by Gail Gygax who has asked us to amend the initial post with a statement of her own. The OP has been edited with that update. Gail's statement is as follows:
Please respect my wished to change the caption of this thread to:

Gygax Magazine? {UPDATE -, does not have the support of the "Gygax Family Estate" }

I wish to clear up any confusion I am the proper owner of the use of the name of my late husband, E. Gary Gygax. And furthermore would ask respect from his public and children from his first marriage, who are fully aware I own all rights to the use of his name and likeness, and all intellectual properties.

We have previously informed Jason Elliot of my ownership rights.

I can understand the enthusiasm for this project and will remain neutral in regard to its merits however, not at the expense of the Gary Gygax Estate, which represents his wishes.​


----------



## AlucardD20

Hi. I am the Host of the RFI Podcast (RFIPODCAST.COM), Jayson was a former host on this show, and he recently came back to the show for a guest hosting. I've been friends with him and spoke to him on a regular basis. This venture is 100% legit, he owns the TSR trademark and is going to be putting out a print magazine. I've seen the actual media kit for this that will go out for people who want to put ads in the magazine. 

Far as who supports it, he has support from Ernie and Luke Gygax. I am not aware if Gail supports this magazine or not.


----------



## Morrus

AlucardD20 said:


> I am not aware if Gail supports this magazine or not.




See the post right before yours.


----------



## Deuce Traveler

This is getting bizarre.


----------



## delericho

Deuce Traveler said:


> This is getting bizarre.




Sounds like it's a good old-fashioned family fued in the making - the magazine seems to have the support of Luke and Ernie Gygax (and can therefore use _their_ surname), but not Gail Gygax who holds the legal rights to Gary's legacy (presumably meaning that the magazine can't claim any connection to his works, except indirectly through E&L).

As with all matters of this sort, my inclination is to stand well clear, because it's liable to get messy.


----------



## AlucardD20

Morrus said:


> See the post right before yours.





Yeah I guess that posted while I was typing mine. 

I know Gail owns Gygax Games, and I've spoke to her a few times. I wasn't sure if she supported TSR and Gygax Magazine company, but I guess we know now.

Its sad there is a split in the family


----------



## Matt James

I trust Luke. I'm not sure what Gail Gygax is trying to accomplish.


----------



## avjax

I think she is just trying to protect the name she holds the rights too. I would expect no less as failing to do so makes it much harder for her to protect it at a later date. I wish the magazine well and the names on it suggest it will have good gaming content but I can understand the frustration of the Gygax Estate who are seeing their name diluted.


----------



## Matt James

avjax said:


> I think she is just trying to protect the name she holds the rights too. I would expect no less as failing to do so makes it much harder for her to protect it at a later date. I wish the magazine well and the names on it suggest it will have good gaming content but I can understand the frustration of the Gygax Estate who are seeing their name diluted.




Luke's and Ernie's last name is Gygax as well. Do you think they should never be able to participate in the gaming industry, from now on, using their name?


----------



## Morrus

Matt James said:


> Luke's and Ernie's last name is Gygax as well. Do you think they should never be able to participate in the gaming industry, from now on, using their name?




I didn't read that as her stopping them, but as her clarifying that the magazine had nothing to do with her or Gygax estate (which some might assume). That seems a reasonable thing to do. Up until that statement, I assumed it all had her support and the support of the estate, so it's not unreasonable to assume that others might also. This clears that up.

I think this is an example of where that "treat news about new RPG books like national security secrets" really shows its flaws.  You just end up with loads of people (including me) guessing and leaping to conclusions.


----------



## Matt James

Morrus said:


> I didn't read that as her stopping them, but as her clarifying that the magazine had nothing to do with her or Gygax estate (which some might assume). That seems a reasonable thing to do. Up until that statement, I assumed it all had her support and the support of the estate, so it's not unreasonable to assume that others might also. This clears that up.




Very true and a good point.


----------



## avjax

Not at all I said I wish the magazine well and will pick it up if I can. However I totally understand her clarifying it is not related to the E. Gary Gygax estate.


----------



## (un)reason

Deuce Traveler said:


> This is getting bizarre.




"Children from his first marriage." To anyone from an extended family with lots of people who've had kids, remarried, had more kids, with a side helping of various affairs in the middle, and then everyone has to try get along with one another at the big get-togethers, that simple phrase should say it all.


----------



## JediSoth

On the one hand, though, Luke and Ernie aren't going to do anything do damage their father's name and legacy. They both love D&D, heck, some of their early characters are in the AD&D Rogue's Gallery. They're part of AD&D history, too!


----------



## talien

My perspective (and involvement) here: http://www.examiner.com/article/tsr-returns-with-gygax-magazine


----------



## Melf

At this time Gail is not a part of Gygax Magazine. Personally, I hope that she decides to come onboard in the future. All the posts from Gygax Magazine staff I've seen were clear that this project is something Ernie and I are  involved in as part of a larger team including Tim Kask, Jayson Elliott, James Carpio and Jim Wampler.  

Gygax Magazine is supported by the Gygax family members who are actually gamers. Ernie (aka Ernest Gary Gygax Jr.) was the first person to playtest D&D, played numerous iconic characters in Greyhawk and worked for TSR through the 1980's. I cut my teeth on gaming and feel passionate about the positive aspects that gaming brings to people's lives.  Gygax Magazine is a way for us to share our love of gaming both Old School and current systems with the gaming community.  We are focused on producing a quality magazine and we hope that you will take the time to read the first issue in December.

Luke Gygax


----------



## FalconerGH

Gail fails again.

*Mod Note:* see my post below.  ~Umbran


----------



## PapersAndPaychecks

Of course Luke and Ernie are entitled to use their own surname.


----------



## ColonelHardisson

I would have hoped that Mrs. Gygax could have given us an update on the progress of the Castle Zagyg project while clarifying her position regarding this upcoming magazine.


----------



## Matt James

ColonelHardisson said:


> I would have hoped that Mrs. Gygax could have given us an update on the progress of the Castle Zagyg project while clarifying her position regarding this upcoming magazine.




I was thinking the same.


----------



## francisca

ColonelHardisson said:


> I would have hoped that Mrs. Gygax could have given us an update on the progress of the Castle Zagyg project while clarifying her position regarding this upcoming magazine.




Yup.  What about LA, and the other stuff that TLG had?


----------



## Umbran

ColonelHardisson said:


> I would have hoped that Mrs. Gygax could have given us an update on the progress of the Castle Zagyg project while clarifying her position regarding this upcoming magazine.




That'd send entirely the wrong message. "I totally don't support *their* work.  But *my* work is going like this..."  No, that's horrible PR.  

In general, a professional doesn't want to have to touch what will appear like a family matter in public.  To mix in project status reports would be... downright unseemly.  She should save such announcements for another time.


----------



## Alzrius

I just want to take a moment to say that, while I only met Gail Gygax once, for a very brief period of time, she struck me as being a very compassionate woman who loved Gary a great deal and has a lot of concern for his legacy - the time we met was when she was at Gen Con, in 2011, helping to sell copies of _Cheers Gary_ to help fund the Gygax Memorial and collecting testimonials about what Gary meant to us gamers.

She's not involved in Gygax Magazine right now, and she wants to make it clear that Gary's legal estate is not involved either - okay. Neither of those things should be cause to impugn her in any way, shape, or form.

Lighten up guys.


----------



## Umbran

Folks,

We expect the members of the Gygax family - _ALL of them_ - to be treated with the utmost respect on these boards.  This does not say you have to agree with what they do, but the moderation staff isn't going to give anyone much leeway into making things personal and insulting.

I hope that's abundantly clear.  Any questions, please take them to e-mail or PM with a moderator.  Thanks.


----------



## Mark CMG

JohnRTroy said:


> While I think a lot of folk understand this already, since there may be some confusion.
> 
> It should be made clear that Gygax magazine has no rights to any of Gary's non-WoTC owned IP, that is all still owned by Trigee/Gygax Games/Gail Gygax.  She is not involved or working with them in this endeavor at all.  Since the term "Gygax" and "Gygax family" can be confusing in this context, I just needed to clear that up.
> 
> 
> If anybody has questions for Gail on this, you can reach her on her Facebook page).







Morrus said:


> I didn't read that as her stopping them, but as her clarifying that the magazine had nothing to do with her or Gygax estate (which some might assume).





Folks might want to clarify that Gail means the E. Gary Gygax *SENIOR* Estate since whatever Erinie has counts as an estate too.    My best to Gail and Luke and Ernie and all on this and any gaming ventures including this new magazine and the memorial project and the Gary Con events and the Castle Zagyg project and many, many more.  We need more of this stuff, not less, and all of it will be better received in an atmosphere of peaceful cross-supported cooperation.  Life's too short for it to be otherwise.


----------



## francisca

Man, I sure miss Tower of Gygax.  That was the best gencon event ever.  What happened to it?


----------



## ColonelHardisson

Umbran said:


> That'd send entirely the wrong message. "I totally don't support *their* work.  But *my* work is going like this..."  No, that's horrible PR.
> 
> In general, a professional doesn't want to have to touch what will appear like a family matter in public.  To mix in project status reports would be... downright unseemly.  She should save such announcements for another time.




I'm sorry; I will bow to your expertise as a professional PR person. All I can say as a potential customer wanting to spend my money, is that any update at all would be welcome. Given that this is the first statement I've seen from Mrs. Gygax in while, I didn't think it unreasonable to ask about that project.


----------



## Gryph

Tinner said:


> This is becoming a disturbing trend in gaming.
> At GenCon this year, Red Brick announced that they were becoming FASA, reviving that old dead company name.
> Now we see TSR getting the zombie treatment.
> I have to say I'm not a fan of this trend. New FASA is not, and can not be old FASA. A FASA without Shadowrun and Battletech is ... well it feels like false advertising.
> Same can be said about this new TSR imo. If TSR doesn't have D&D, then it's not really the TSR we knew and loved.
> At which point it just feels like your'e preying on nostalgia.
> In wrestling terms, it's a cheap pop.




In general I agree with this sentiment. Luke and Ernie Gygax being involved makes me inclined to think otherwise in this case.

I have hopes that with Tim Kask's involvement this venture will have a lot of the broad gaming market vibe that the original The Dragon had when he was the editor. I'd like to see them look at the board games/war games and miniatures game markets as well as rpgs, like The Dragon used to. Heck they even ran some video game reviews back in the day, why not now?

I really miss magazines like the old Dragon and White Dwarf that were gamer inclusive rather than house organs and silos of gaming specialization. I'd even put up with articles on d20 if the magazine is eclectic enough in its content.


----------



## lordmhor

*Harmonious Outcomes*

It is my hope that all members of the Gygax family and their supporters can find a place of agreement such that the RPG populace can find renewed hope in the hobby, for future generations, led by the name Gygax.

I was in contact with Gary shortly before his demise, back in the Castles & Crusades days during the compilation of "Castle Zagyg". There may be _Unfinished Business_, but it is best to begin anew. Perhaps this is what the recent activity might accomplish, if it is not thwarted by silly conflicts.

I have great respect for what has been accomplished in the past and look forward to that which will be accomplished in the future. It would be particularly gratifying to see an excellent new game come forth from this that bears the Gygax name, something that is not "retro" and relegated to ancient dusty shelves in the back of history-minded gaming stores.

Were all energy to be focused on such an outcome, life would be richer for all of us.


----------



## mach1.9pants

Wow join Apr 04, one post! Welcome from the lurking shadows lordmhor 

I think it is cool to have another mag out there, esp with the demise of KQ, I hope it goes well.


----------



## lordmhor

*Sincere Lurking*



mach1.9pants said:


> Wow join Apr 04, one post! Welcome from the lurking shadows lordmhor
> 
> I think it is cool to have another mag out there, esp with the demise of KQ, I hope it goes well.




My vow of silence here has finally been broken because this news is, in my mind, that significant. Now that the dam has been released, more posts are likely to follow.

I could only manage silence here for eight years. I've been making lots of noise everywhere else...


----------



## Flexor the Mighty!

I sure hope there are no legal issues to mess this up.  Really looking forward to it.  A general RPG magazine is somethign I've been looking forward to for a long time.


----------



## nedjer

'Read Dragon magazine four hundred times thread' is round about the most repeatedly read content on EN. So I'm not getting the Fugees - more Pink Floyd


----------



## (un)reason

nedjer said:


> 'Read Dragon magazine four hundred times thread' is round about the most repeatedly read content on EN. So I'm not getting the Fugees - more Pink Floyd




Hey! I'm up to 2002 now, and the last fugees album was in 1996.  Maybe Rush would be a better analogy, since they released their first album in 1974, and are still going today.


----------



## level1gamer

PapersAndPaychecks said:


> Of course Luke and Ernie are entitled to use their own surname.




From what I understand about trademarks (admittedly, I'm no expert), this is not necessarily true. There could be a case if it can be shown that consumer's would be confused.  For instance, if my last name is McDonald, I can't open restaurant called McDonald's. I'd probably even have a hard time publishing a cookbook called "McDonald's Recipes" because it can be confused. Trademark law is weird.


----------



## Morrus

level1gamer said:


> From what I understand about trademarks (admittedly, I'm no expert), this is not necessarily true. There could be a case if it can be shown that consumer's would be confused. For instance, if my last name is McDonald, I can't open restaurant called McDonald's. I'd probably even have a hard time publishing a cookbook called "McDonald's Recipes" because it can be confused. Trademark law is weird.




This is my understanding, too. Perhaps an IP lawyer could weigh in, but my low-level knowledge of IP law suggests to me that combining "Gygax" and "TSR" without any context might ["might?" clearly it did, as this very thread shows!] create customer confusion.

But I'm not a lawyer. I _know_ it confused me, and I'm fairly knowledgeable about the RPG industry. I thought it was a scam. I saw "Gygax Magazine from TSR" (and let's think about that - that, without context, makes no sense!), not "Gary Gygax's kids and some ex-TSR employees have got together to make a new magazine, but his widow has nothing to do with it".. I don't know what someone whose job _isn't_ to follow these things who just sees this on a shop shelf would think.

That's why - despite some vocal criticism from the morally superior protectors of the innocent - I feel this thread has value. Without it, the customer would remain uninformed and possibly have the *wrong* impression. Transparency is a_ marvellous_ result which enables things to progress on their own merits.

I think there's a lesson to be learned here: if you don't want people to question you, don't be cryptic. That was _one hella-cryptic_ marketing strategy - and let's be clear here: a website which says nothing but "GYGAX MAGAZINE FROM TSR: GIMME YOUR EMAIL ADDY" is a helluva risky tactic, but it's a chosen, deliberate one designed to attract attention - and such a  tactic will, should, and did cause people to question it.  

Those advocating "do not question, blindly follow along, submit your email address as ordered by the invisible anonymous person using a company name last used in 1997" are entitled to their opinion; I do not share it.  I checked it out first, like a responsible net citizen, and kept people apprised of my progress lest it turn out to be dodgy.  If the folks in question hadn't wanted this very thing to happen, they wouldn't have chosen a tactic which guaranteed it.  

In the end, I guess it worked - is there any RPG-gamer on the web who isn't aware of this now? Luke, Ernie, etc. are going to do just fine with this.


----------



## darjr

I wonder if a better name would be 'The Gygaxian' or just 'Gygaxian'

Though, for example, couldn't anyone put out a magazine about the life and times of Gary Gygax and call it Gygax Magazine?


----------



## Morrus

darjr said:


> I wonder if a better name would be 'The Gygaxian' or just 'Gygaxian'
> 
> Though, for example, couldn't anyone put out a magazine about the life and times of Gary Gygax and call it Gygax Magazine?




I dunno. Gail Gygax says "Gary Gygax" is a trademark. So's "Morrus", if I decide it is. Whether it's _registered_ or not is just protection. I don't know whether "Gary Gygax" is registered, but nobody's actually used it so that's kinda moot.

But they have used "TSR" (indeed, not "TSR Games", their new company, but "TSR") right next to "Gygax" which did create an impression with me. Well, with me it set off alarm bells, because I'm knowledgeable, and I wanted to know what was going on (and I was delighted to find it was all above board) but with some guy wandering into a game store and seeing it on a shelf? Who knows. That's why we have lawyers, I guess.

I'm very pleased to hear that the Gygax family (if not the Gygax Estate) is involved.  But _damn_.  They did the online equivalent of going into a bank dressed in a striped shirt and a mask and a bag labelled "swag" and then just meekly asking to open an account. That website looked as suspicious as it's possible to make a website. Why the _heck_ didn't they just put a note at the bottom saying "Luke and Ernie Gygax have bought the TSR trademark"?

Well, the alternative is that it was very clever!


----------



## PapersAndPaychecks

Well, I'm neither a lawyer nor an American, so I know you'll all be waiting with bated breath to know what I think about a theoretical matter of US law...

I suspect that before you could show that customers might be confused, you'd have to show that there's some trading entity that TSR's Gygax magazine might be confused _with_.  As far as I know, nobody has been publishing material using the TSR name or the Gygax name for quite some years.


----------



## Thulcondar

Morrus said:


> I dunno. Gail Gygax says "Gary Gygax" is a trademark. So's "Morrus", if I decide it is. Whether it's _registered_ or not is just protection. I don't know whether "Gary Gygax" is registered, but nobody's actually used it so that's kinda moot.




According to the TESS search on the USPTO website, "Gary Gygax" is not a registered trademark, nor is "Gygax". That doesn't mean it can't be used as a trademark, just that it's not officially registered with the USPTO. However, in order to do that, it must be used *in commerce*, and as far as I know, Gail hasn't actually *sold *anything under the Gary Gygax moniker. So that would be tough to make stick in court. (Note that I am not a lawyer, but I've dealt with these sorts of issues in regards to my own IP.)

"TSR", on the other hand, is a registered trademark (filed on May 25, 2011) belonging to something called Hexagonist Publishing. The website belonging to Hexagonist Publishing (hexagonist.com) is in turn registered to... Jayson Elliot.

So that part makes perfect sense and squares with what we've been told. 

Joe


----------



## Morrus

Thulcondar said:


> as far as I know, Gail hasn't actually *sold *anything under the Gary Gygax moniker




_"Cheers, Gary!"_ in 2011.



PapersAndPaychecks said:


> I suspect that before you could show that customers might be confused, you'd have to show that there's some trading entity that TSR's Gygax magazine might be confused _with_. As far as I know, nobody has been publishing material using the TSR name or the Gygax name for quite some years.




See above.


----------



## darjr

I didn't think they meant for this to go live just yet.


----------



## Piratecat

Morrus said:


> Well, the alternative is that it was very clever!



 We're certainly talking about it, and I'm thinking about it. I hope Gail, Ernie and Luke work things out between themselves. They're all good people.


----------



## Melf

darjr said:


> I didn't think they meant for this to go live just yet.




Boy did you get that right! This information leaked out and has caused some unwanted confusion. I personally wish this had gone as planned with the release of the first issue. All publicity is good I suppose, but I would have preferred rolling out the project without the confusion. I hope people will read Gygax Magazine and judge it by its merits.


----------



## Thulcondar

Morrus said:


> _"Cheers, Gary!"_ in 2011.




I don't have a copy, so I don't know the answer to this, but by whom was it published? Is there a trademark statement somewhere on the inside of the book? I know that the proceeds went to the "Gygax Memorial Fund", and such was stated prominently on the cover, but that's very different from actually saying that "Gygax" was a brand under which the book was sold (i.e., "used in commerce"). I also don't see a ™ on the cover next to the name, so that makes it even more dicey.

Gail would be infinitely better off actually registering the trademark with the USPTO, in my opinion. It would clear up a lot of issues and give her firmer ground on which to stand, but even then wouldn't absolutely ban everyone from using Gary's name without permission. There's "fair use" in relation to trademarks as well. (Again, I'm not a lawyer, and this is just a layman's opinion.)

Apologies for the mini threadjack into the realms of IP law. I'm done now, pending more news on the magazine and company. I remain cautiously optimistic, but less cautious than I was yesterday. 

Joe


----------



## Man in the Funny Hat

darjr said:


> I didn't think they meant for this to go live just yet.



Except that if one does not mean for it to go live one does not put up a website that is, in fact, live.  Even if all it does is add your email to a list to notify when the magazine is selling, even if you're not telling anyone it's there, by uploading to your webserver anything more visible to the public than a blank page you're letting the cat out of the bag.  Rather than have someone stumble onto it and immediately ask the inevitable questions of, "What's this?  Who's behind this?  I haven't heard about this... what's going on here?" it should have been accompanied by a general press release and notifications to whatever gaming websites/news sources you want to inform.

If they honestly hadn't meant for it to be seen they definitely under-thought their sequence of activites for this.


----------



## Morrus

Thulcondar said:


> I don't have a copy, so I don't know the answer to this, but by whom was it published? Is there a trademark statement somewhere on the inside of the book? I know that the proceeds went to the "Gygax Memorial Fund", and such was stated prominently on the cover, but that's very different from actually saying that "Gygax" was a brand under which the book was sold (i.e., "used in commerce"). I also don't see a ™ on the cover next to the name, so that makes it even more dicey.
> 
> Gail would be infinitely better off actually registering the trademark with the USPTO, in my opinion. It would clear up a lot of issues and give her firmer ground on which to stand, but even then wouldn't absolutely ban everyone from using Gary's name without permission. There's "fair use" in relation to trademarks as well. (Again, I'm not a lawyer, and this is just a layman's opinion.)
> 
> Apologies for the mini threadjack into the realms of IP law. I'm done now, pending more news on the magazine and company. I remain cautiously optimistic, but less cautious than I was yesterday.




FIrst - fake .sig to circumvent our sig rules?  Not cool, dude, and not clever.  Please stop doing that.

Secondly - your question is easily answered.  In terms of IP law, all that matters is: were you under the impression that the book in question referred to Gary Gygax?  Of course you were. And if you had a copy of the book, you'd see that his name is used in full frequently.

Obviously people would always benefit from an (r) rather than a TM.  Everyone would, always, by definition.  Stating this isn't really additional information for anybody; it's like saying "oxygen is nice".  They simply determine whether the additional protection is worth it to them in a cost-benefit way.


----------



## jonesy

Man in the Funny Hat said:


> If they honestly hadn't meant for it to be seen they definitely under-thought their sequence of activites for this.



Unintentional or not, it's certainly one way to generate traffic.


----------



## Thulcondar

Morrus said:


> FIrst - fake .sig to circumvent our sig rules?  Not cool, dude, and not clever.  Please stop doing that.




Apologies! Not trying to circumvent anything; it was just easier to copy it in from other places I've used it. Won't happen again, and I'll go through and edit it out upthread.



Morrus said:


> Secondly - your question is easily answered.  In terms of IP law, all that matters is: were you under the impression that the book in question referred to Gary Gygax?  Of course you were. And if you had a copy of the book, you'd see that his name is used in full frequently.




Of course, but just because a book is about someone doesn't mean that their name is used throughout constitutes a trademark. That's how people can write "unauthorized biographies" without establishing a trademark. Use of the ™ is one way to do so, and so is a notice at the front of the book. The best way would be to have it present in the work as an obvious brand or company name. You obviously have a copy of the book. Is it indicated to be a trademark anywhere in there? (I'm honestly trying to figure out the status of whether or not "Gary Gygax" or "Gygax" are unregistered trademarks, not trying to be  argumentative.)

Joe


----------



## JohnRTroy

It's not just Trademark Law that applies here.  As the legal heir to EGG, she not just owns intellectual property rights to his post-TSR work, but right of personality.  Since Gary Gygax is a person, you can't use his name, his likeness, etc, without the permission of the estate (Gail).  The problem with personality rights is they vary from state to state.

The term "Gygax" when it comes to gaming has a very specific meaning.  Put it this way, you wouldn't know Luke and Ernie (or Gail) without Gary.  When people aware of the D&D game see the term "Gygax" you think of Gary or "the guy who created D&D".  That leaves a term like "Gygax Magazine" a bit misleading.  If they had used a different term like "Gygax Bros. Magazine", that would be more clear.  There's a clear establishment of a "common law" trademark when it comes to Gary's own name being used, especially since terms like Gary Gygax's Dangerous Journeys and other books that have his name as part of the title.  

I have a feeling if a battle to trademark his name happened between Gail and Luke/Ernie, it would fall under Gail's umbrella.

ETA--By "without permission", I mean in terms of commerce or anything that implies endorsement.  You could write an unauthorized biography, for instance.  But sticking the name "Gygax" or even "Gygaxian" on a gaming product in the title is just asking for trouble.


----------



## Morrus

Thulcondar said:


> Of course, but just because a book is about someone doesn't mean that their name is used throughout constitutes a trademark. That's how people can write "unauthorized biographies" without establishing a trademark. Use of the ™ is one way to do so, and so is a notice at the front of the book. The best way would be to have it present in the work as an obvious brand or company name. You obviously have a copy of the book. Is it indicated to be a trademark anywhere in there? (I'm honestly trying to figure out the status of whether or not "Gary Gygax" or "Gygax" are unregistered trademarks, not trying to be argumentative.)




I don't have it close to hand, unfortunately.  But Gail Gygax saying "Gary Gygax is a trademark" (as she has done) is exactly the same as putting the shorthand (tm) after his name.  IP law isn't dependent on correct application of shorthand notation; those are merely easy and commonly used ways to inform the reader.  They aren't legal constructs in themselves.


----------



## Mark CMG

Melf said:


> Boy did you get that right! This information leaked out and has caused some unwanted confusion. I personally wish this had gone as planned with the release of the first issue. All publicity is good I suppose, but I would have preferred rolling out the project without the confusion. I hope people will read Gygax Magazine and judge it by its merits.





Thanks!  Good of you to clear that up.  Hopefully folks will take you at your word and not make more of it than that, now that you are on the record.  I look forward to what comes out in December! 



.


----------



## Nellisir

Morrus said:


> I don't have it close to hand, unfortunately.  But Gail Gygax saying "Gary Gygax is a trademark" (as she has done) is exactly the same as putting the shorthand (tm) after his name.  IP law isn't dependent on correct application of shorthand notation; those are merely easy and commonly used ways to inform the reader.  They aren't legal constructs in themselves.




No, but trademarks aren't copyright either.  They need to be defended (which she is apparently doing) and maintained in use (whether or not this is occuring is apparently less clear).  It looks to me (from skimming through wikipedia, yay me) that she can't just sit on the name, registered or not, forever.

That said, I'd put my money on the Estate right now for control of the name "Gygax".


----------



## joethelawyer

JohnRTroy said:


> .....  But sticking the name "Gygax" or even "Gygaxian" on a gaming product in the title is just asking for trouble.





agreed


----------



## Blacky the Blackball

Well, whatever the end result, I predict that Thanksgiving dinner in the Gygax household tonight will have some _interesting_ conversation...


----------



## delericho

You know, there would be something deliciously ironic if the representatives of Gary Gygax were to sue _TSR_ in order to stop publication of game-related material...


----------



## Knight Templar

Gail Gygax is such a horrible person.


I'm sure you are aware how inappropriate a comment this is. Removed from thread. - Lwaxy


----------



## czak

Morrus said:


> _"Cheers, Gary!"_ in 2011.
> 
> 
> 
> See above.




 Hmm are single book titles entitled to trademark protection? I was under the impression it had to be a series.


----------



## S'mon

avjax said:


> I think she is just trying to protect the name she holds the rights too.




If she wanted a monopoly on 'Gygax' for games she should have trademarked it and put out a product, eg Castle Greyhawk. Although that would not stop Luke & Ernie making good faith use of their own name.
As for copyright in EGG's work at TSR, that is owned by WoTC.
In terms of any moral, extra-legal right to the Gygax name, I'd think Gygaxes by blood have at least as strong a claim as Gygaxes by marriage. 

-S'mon the IP lawyer.


----------



## Matt James

I recently interviewed Luke Gygax about Gygax Magazine. He answered some questions for Loremaster.org

You can find it here: http://loremaster.org/content.php?282-Loremaster-Interview-with-Luke-Gygax


----------



## Mark CMG

Some details from Tim Kask here -

http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/v...sid=5987d1d1fcd3f15c043c3e4dad739f56#p1301751


----------



## Keefe the Thief

_"Gygax is a gaming magazine for new and old
players alike.

We are looking forward to the games of tomorrow
and today, while preserving the traditions and history
that got us where we are now.

Our articles and features cover current independent
and major publisher games such as Pathfinder,
Savage Worlds, The One Ring, Shadowrun,
Godlike, Labyrinth Lord, Marvel Heroic Roleplaying,
Warhammer 40k Roleplay, Traveller, and others,
as well as classic out-of-print games with a modern
following, like AD&D, Top Secret, and Gamma
World."_

Could it be that one gaming system is missing from that list?


----------



## Agamon

Keefe the Thief said:


> _Could it be that one gaming system is missing from that list?_



_

Are we talking about a game that hasn't been published yet?  I'm sure it will be included when it has...._


----------



## billd91

Keefe the Thief said:


> Could it be that one gaming system is missing from that list?




Yeah, I don't see Toon on that list. What a terrible oversight...


----------



## Mark CMG

Boot Hill?  Tunnels & Trolls?  Bunnies & Burrows?


----------



## Agamon

F.A.T.A.L. perhaps?


----------



## Nellisir

Comments from both Luke & Tim make me a little less skeptical of their success.
1- I like that they're positioning themselves as a "gaming" magazine, not just an OSR magazine.  Will it work?  I don't know, but it seems smart to cast as wide a net as possible.

2 - They're making their distance from original TSR very clear.  I'm sure this is for legal reasons, and it's smart.

3 - I'm still dubious about the Gygax name.  Its only strength is its relationship to Gary Gygax.  Otherwise they might as well call it Kask Magazine.

4 - Personally, if they're going to dance on the line, I'd call it EGG - The Essential Gamer's Guide (Monthly)

5 - They're not looking to do actual games, it seems, which makes this a lot of quasi-big names on a rather small project.


----------



## Aaron L

I dunno, among old-school gamers I'd say the Gygax boys have their own share of personal cred, even if they aren't their dad, don't they?  I mean, Melf himself... what D&D player hasn't heard of Melf?  And Erac's Cousin?    They certainly have a right to be proud of D&D, a game they had their own hands in helping to form - and the gaming culture that it spawned, and want to see it prosper and have their and their dad's name continue to be actively involved in the gaming culture that is part of his legacy.  And be involved in it themselves. 

(And I don't mean "Gygax boys" in any kind of demeaning way, just in the fact that they are Gary's boys.  Gary's kids helping him test and form and even name the game has entered into the legendry of gaming.)

I've gone from initially being afraid that this was some kind of tasteless scam, to being pleasantly surprised, and now hopefully optimistic about it and looking forward to it.  If I can get some new 1E AD&D material, then this is just going to be rad and I'll start up a new campaign if I can scrounge up players besides my brother.  Just imagine articles with continued development of 1E!  The Mountebank and Mystic and Jester classes Gary used to talk about! (Wishful Thinking )


----------



## pedr

S'mon said:


> If she wanted a monopoly on 'Gygax' for games she should have trademarked it and put out a product, eg Castle Greyhawk. Although that would not stop Luke & Ernie making good faith use of their own name.
> As for copyright in EGG's work at TSR, that is owned by WoTC.
> In terms of any moral, extra-legal right to the Gygax name, I'd think Gygaxes by blood have at least as strong a claim as Gygaxes by marriage.
> 
> -S'mon the IP lawyer.



The one legal right S'mon doesn't mention is 'right of personality'. I hadn't heard of it until the Law of the Geek podcast had an episode on it. Its protection is based in state law in the US, so it is hard to predict how it would apply here, but while I like the idea of the magazine, it is, arguably, making use of Gary's reputation which may be something that the law allows the estate to control. It would be a question of fact whether Gygax Magazine is passing itself off as endorsed or produced by the Gygax estate. If it is, there may be state laws which make the name problematic even without a trademark claim, and even though Gygax is also the name of two proprietors. I agree with S'mon about the strength of Luke and Ernie's moral claims to the name, but that doesn't necessarily give them legal rights to publish a gaming magazine using it.

 I hope that the magazine team is obtaining legal advice. I hope they can go ahead with the precise plans, but if there are legal problems, now is the time to discover them and decide how to respond.


----------



## JohnRTroy

> I'm still dubious about the Gygax name. Its only strength is its relationship to Gary Gygax. Otherwise they might as well call it Kask Magazine.




This is a key problem for me.

The big thing is, while people are arguing for the "moral rights" to the name, we need to think about it for a minute.  People are probably basing this on what they personally want for Gary's IP treatment or thinking of Luke and Ernie as the campaigners who gamed with their famous dad, etc, and that they are heirs to a dynasty.

Luke and Ernie had plenty of opportunities to get involved with their Dad's business, post TSR, both before (at Gary's invite) and after (at Gail's invite) he died.  They refused all the time.   Gary, for instance, asked both of them to be involved in Castle Zagyg, but they refused.  And they have not written a lot in the industry, outside from a few things in the early days of TSR, and that one module from Troll Lord Games.   It's only a few years after Gary died that they started in the industry.

Meantime, in terms of moral rights--Gail married Gary, as a spouse she comes first in inheritance than the kids (and Alex would probably be the heir if she died, if there's not a trust setup).  I can appreciate the other part of the family's possible frustration that they don't have the rights to do stuff with their Dad's work or reputation, but, hey, that's what happens when somebody gets divorced and remarries.  And I think if either they contributed to a lot of Gary's post-TSR work or there wasn't a family disagreement, this wouldn't be a issue.

But it's not just marriage.  Trigee was registered in Gail's name.  Gail may not be the "creative force", but she has done plenty of things for Gary--accounting, legal, keeping the business aspects afloat--she was definately a true partner in the endeavor.  If Gary wanted things to be different, he could have established a will or trust that made things different.  But, at least from my interpretation, it's clear that the person who probably did the most work for Gary's legacy gets control of it, both from a legal and a moral perspective.

The big problem I see with the term "Gygax Magazine" is that, since the kids aren't famous on their own yet for their writing, the use of just their family surname is confusing enough--it implies endorsement from the estate, and/or a implicent endorsement from Gary, as in "Gary passed on the torch to us".  This is especially problematic if the magazine ends up having the bulk of the writing by others.

If the kids want to establish their own name--from what I've seen based on other creative types in the industry, usually you try to distance yourself from the parent.  Jakob Dylan, for instance, works hard to keep people from bringing up Bob Dylan as his dad--he even has things in his rider expressly forbidding show venues from ever using that term.   I would think because of this--if they wanted to establish their own name, they would not just use the surname--I can think of several ways to make it creative.  "Sons of Gygax", "Luke and Ernie Gygax", or have the magazine not mention Gygax by name.  Because, no matter what, any gamer is gonna look at the name Gygax and think of their Dad.  Usually, when people are trying to establish a name for themselves, they try to distance themselves from the legacy.  

There is a clear case for "consumer confusion", because this has actually happened before.  The kids established their own "Gygax Family Memorial", and a lot of people who went to GaryCon confused that with the Gygax Memorial Fund.  A lot of people thought these efforts were united, but they weren't.  Based on that I can understand Gail's objection to the title of the magazine.  

Finally, I think too many people are making their judgement based on their own personal likes rather than what is right.  To me, what Gail is doing or not doing with Castle Zagyg, Lejendary Adventure, or whether or not she makes her plans transparent to the gaming community or whether she is a "gamer" is not an issue.  It's the rights she inherited that I think is important.  She's the sole person who can authorize Gary's name and likeness for us in any endeavor that is not covered by Fair Use.  I suspect she could even object to GaryCon's name because it uses Gary's name and likeness, if she chose to.  

Whether you agree or disagree with her plans or treatment, that really shouldn't influence a judgement of what's right or not.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

Meh.

As an outside observer and potential consumer, I find the attempt to grab customers by playing on an inferred relationship using the names "Gygax" and "TSR" to be misleading and offensive.  I'll pass, thanks.

They did get me to post, though, so score one for publicity.


----------



## GMforPowergamers

JohnRTroy said:
			
		

> Finally, I think too many people are making their judgement based on their own personal likes rather than what is right.  To me, what Gail is doing or not doing with Castle Zagyg, Lejendary Adventure, or whether or not she makes her plans transparent to the gaming community or whether she is a "gamer" is not an issue.  It's the rights she inherited that I think is important.  She's the sole person who can authorize Gary's name and likeness for us in any endeavor that is not covered by Fair Use.  I suspect she could even object to GaryCon's name because it uses Gary's name and likeness, if she chose to.
> 
> Whether you agree or disagree with her plans or treatment, that really shouldn't influence a judgement of what's right or not.




I wonder how people would feel if WotC had kept the TSR name, hired luke as a consultant and put out the exact same mag.... money grab would be the nicest thing anyone would say.

I feel like this is still a scam, and hope they change the name...


----------



## Morrus

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> As an outside observer and potential consumer, I find the attempt to grab customers by playing on an inferred relationship using the names "Gygax" and "TSR" to be misleading and offensive.




While I agree that the combination of "Gygax" and "TSR" is certainly designed to evoke something specific, I wouldn't call it "offensive".  But it's marketing, certainly (well, hopefully - one would hope that a cryptic website like that leading to mass speculation wasn't just an accident!)


----------



## S'mon

pedr said:


> The one legal right S'mon doesn't mention is 'right of personality'. I hadn't heard of it until the Law of the Geek podcast had an episode on it. Its protection is based in state law in the US, so it is hard to predict how it would apply here




There is no 'Personality Right' in UK law. It can be said that the UK courts may take an expansive approach to the law of Passing Off (requiring Business Goodwill, Misrepresentation, and Damage per _Jif Lemon_) where there appears to be a misappropriation of a celebrity image - see _Irvine_ vs _Talksport_; in that case Talksport used an unauthorised photo of Eddie Irvine the racecar driver to advertise their talk radio station. This was based on Irvine having an endorsement business.

Conversely in _Stringfellow vs McCains_ the strip club owner Peter Stringfellow was unsuccessful in suing the food producer McCains for their "Stringfellows" long & thin chips, Stringfellow had no endorsement business to harm.

In this Gygax Magazine situation, I don't see any Misrepresentation given Luke & Ernie's use of their own name. I'm not sure whether the Gygax Estate has Business Goodwill in the Gygax name, it's not currently used but has been used in the past (to a limited extent) - a UK court could go either way, but I'd suspect they would say it does have Goodwill.


----------



## JohnRTroy

But the key thing is that Personality rights are a concept in US Law, and the UK has different IP laws than the US, and both parties are in the US.


----------



## S'mon

pedr said:


> TI agree with S'mon about the strength of Luke and Ernie's moral claims to the name, but that doesn't necessarily give them legal rights to publish a gaming magazine using it.




I would actually think it a lot more likely that the "TSR" Trade Mark could be struck off due to making use of a famous brand which still has residual business goodwill, than that they could get into trouble for using their own "Gygax" name, which has only ever had limited business use. But that's in UK law; US law varies by State.


----------



## S'mon

JohnRTroy said:


> But the key thing is that Personality rights are a concept in US Law, and the UK has different IP laws than the US, and both parties are in the US.




What actually counts as an infringement does not seem to vary all that much, though - the law has been developing along similar lines.


----------



## Mark CMG

JohnRTroy said:


> This is a key problem for me.





What is your position/connection to Gygax Games and/or Gail Gygax?  You seem to have been informally representing Gygax Games's and/or Gail Gygax's interests online for a few years or more but I was never sure if there is an official connection.  Do you represent either in a legal capacity?  You seem to have some understanding of the law.  Are you perhaps just a friend who also happens to be a lawyer?

My own involvement here is just as a fan who is also a regular Gary Con attendee who wants to see MORE celebration of Gary's legacy, not less, and who wishes all parties to be more active in bringing that end about.


----------



## trancejeremy

S'mon said:


> I would actually think it a lot more likely that the "TSR" Trade Mark could be struck off due to making use of a famous brand which still has residual business goodwill, than that they could get into trouble for using their own "Gygax" name, which has only ever had limited business use. But that's in UK law; US law varies by State.




A quick google search brings up the case of White Cloud toilet paper, a brand by Proctor & Gamble which was dropped (to try to push sales of their more expensive brand, Charmin), then some other company picked up the trademark and sold it to Walmart, which used it for their line of toilet paper.


----------



## Leif

S'mon said:


> ... But that's in UK law; US law varies by State.



This is true, but it is also worth considering that oftentimes, when a state finds a statutory scheme that works for an area of law, then that state's statutes in that field of law are subject to being copied by other states.  To say nothing of the National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws.  http://uniformlaws.org/

Admittedly, it is quite rare to find a statute that has been enacted precisely verbatim by a number of states.  However, if there is a general consensus among the states on how best to handle a given situation, which happens more often than you might think, then the differences between the laws of those states concerning that matter will probably be largely superficial.  It is also worth noting that the procedures and precedents concerning those laws can vary significantly from state to state.   I strongly suspect that this holds true in any common law jurisdiction, American, English, or what-have-you.

Take legal drinking age for example:  in the vast majority of states it is legal to buy spiritous liquors at age 21.  However, by a judge's ruling, *South Carolina* appears to allow the possession and consumption of alcohol by those 18 to 20 years of age.  [Article 17, Section 14 of the state constitution conditionally gives those 18 and over the "full legal rights and responsibilities" of all other adults, with one exception -- the General Assembly can restrict the *sale* of alcohol.  But that section of the Constitution of S.C. does not specifically address consumption or possession, which leads to the conclusion that an 18-year-old can possess and consume alcoholic beverages, he/she just can't buy them.]  And, the State of *Wisconsin* allows the consumption of alcohol by minors in the presence of parents.  Otherwise, it now appears to be the law in practically every state that the legal drinking age is 21 years.

It hasn't been all that long, though, since the patchwork of legal drinking age(s) across the United States was considerably more variegated.  If memory serves, which it may not, Florida and Louisiana both had drinking ages lower than 21.  Someone correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## JohnRTroy

Mark CMG said:


> What is your position/connection to Gygax Games and/or Gail Gygax?  You seem to have been informally representing Gygax Games's and/or Gail Gygax's interests online for a few years or more but I was never sure if there is an official connection.  Do you represent either in a legal capacity?  You seem to have some understanding of the law.  Are you perhaps just a friend who also happens to be a lawyer?




There's no official connection.  I was friends with Gary for over 15 years.  While I guess you could count the stuff I contributed as "pro bono freelance", I not either an employee or freelancer of Gygax Games, nor do I plan on it in the forseeable future.   In fact, I'm one of the few people who worked with Gary who doesn't really want a career in the publishing or game industry.  

I've simply maintained a friendship with Gail since Gary died.  On occasion, she will ask me to clarify things online as a favor, like I did in the thread before Morrus was contacted, but other than that, my opinions are my own.  Admittedly, this gives me a bias of my own, as I have not had the opportunity to befriend Gary's kids, so in the case of family disagreements I'm only hearing one side, and my level of friendship (IMO) is just minor.  And that's why I'm treading carefully.

I chime in on threads like this for two reasons.  There's a tendency for people to jump in and see things without doing a lot of research, and I feel obligated to be truthful and try to correct misconceptions about Gary's past and his feelings--a lot of people just look to the "old days" and don't pay attention to other things Gary did, for instance.  Also, I see Gail taking a beating for taking an unpopular stance with Gary's works, and while I think there is room for respectful disagreements, people need to remember that she's the spouse Gary was married to for almost 25 years, and games weren't the most important thing in his life.

As far as law goes--I just find creative rights and IP law fascinating, and have been involved in researching cases and helping other people out as a layman.



Mark CMG said:


> My own involvement here is just as a fan who is also a regular Gary Con attendee who wants to see MORE celebration of Gary's legacy, not less, and who wishes all parties to be more active in bringing that end about.




I have no objection to the Gygax sons publishing their own magazine, nor to GaryCon itself.  I sincerely believe they want to just have some fun with gamers and work on their own creative endeavors, and I'm sure Gary would be proud of them for finally getting involved in a major way with game development.  Heck, I'll pick up a few issues and see what it's like.  

My only objection is the confusing name--I believe they need to respect how their Dad left things and don't make it look like they have "inherited the throne", nor attempt to try to trademark the term "Gygax" by itself (which is how the logo looks), which I think is what Gail meant by respect.  I'm sure Gary would object to the use of the surname by itself on a magazine if he was not involved in it at all.  If they were actually more involved in Gary's creative efforts, were being groomed as the heirs both legal and creative (with Gary making specific statements to that regard), etc., and then suddenly they were cut out by Gail, I could see my opinion being different, but that doesn't appear to be the case here.

Speaking of Law, I believe S'Mon is right about the TSR thing.  Abandonment of the Trademark rather than never having it in the first place, _An abandoned mark is not irrevocably in the public domain, but may instead be re-registered by any party which has re-established exclusive and active use, and must be associated or linked with the original mark owner._  That's a pretty grey area to deal with.  I know of at least one lawsuit where a music group's members got control of their trademark based on the goodwill (they being the original members, having a stable line-up) in a case the original production company was dissolved via bankruptcy and there was no legal transfer or assets from the owner's old company to new company, so there was no history of a registered mark.  If, however, he could have proved abandonment of the mark, the group might have actually lost the case.

Anyway, I think Right of Publicity, even if it conflicts with Trademark law, could come into play.  There's a good web site dealing with case precedent in the US.  

http://rightofpublicity.com/notable-cases


----------



## Mark CMG

Thanks for the response, JohnRTroy.  I'm sure the legal situations will all be resolved in due course and I won't pretend to know what either side is thinking or doing to make that happen, so I won't comment on that aspect.  As to getting to know what joy Gary's legacy brings to the folks who congregate at Gary Con every year, you should certainly not be a stranger and make your plans to come to the convention this year.  Gary's games from all of his decades publishing are in abundance and folks have a great time playing and running them.  Bring your dice!


----------



## Leif

JohnRTroy said:


> Speaking of Law, I believe S'Mon is right about the TSR thing.  Abandonment of the Trademark rather than never having it in the first place, _An abandoned mark is not irrevocably in the public domain, but may instead be re-registered by any party which has re-established exclusive and active use, and must be associated or linked with the original mark owner._



This sounds reasonably accurate, in general terms, if not specific ones.  We do, however, have at least one IP lawyer on this site!    [MENTION=51567]Lou[/MENTION] care to comment?  Or is that conditioned upon an assurance of payment?


JohnRTroy said:


> That's a pretty grey area to deal with.  I know of at least one lawsuit where a music group's members got control of their trademark based on the goodwill (they being the original members, having a stable line-up) in a case the original production company was dissolved via bankruptcy and there was no legal transfer or assets from the owner's old company to new company, so there was no history of a registered mark.  If, however, he could have proved abandonment of the mark, the group might have actually lost the case.



The problem with the above analysis is that it involves a bankruptcy.  There are many legal rules, statutes, and precedents that 'control' very many aspects of life in these United States.  One of the fastest ways to get any particular one of them totally chucked out the window is to try to enforce it against a Debtor in Bankruptcy, a known creditor of such a person, or -God Forbid- a Bankruptcy Trustee.  That being said, the case may well be as claimed, but the precedential value of the case itself would possibly be stronger if there was no bakruptcy involved.  Possibly, mind you, just possibly.


----------



## Henry

JohnRTroy said:


> Also, I see Gail taking a beating for taking an unpopular stance with Gary's works, and while I think there is room for respectful disagreements, people need to remember that she's the spouse Gary was married to for almost 25 years, and games weren't the most important thing in his life.




Quick reminder about Gail: This is the lady who gave Gary her blessing to game with a bunch of fanboys (namely, a bunch of ENWorld Mods) on their wedding anniversary, because it made him (and us as a by-product!) happy. She's always had ENWorld Staff praise for being a super awesome lady who loved Gary very much.

By a similar token, I love seeing Ernie and Luke's contributions here, and hope the best for their magazine. I wanna see more, and see them contribute to the gamer community all the more, be it here, Dragonsfoot, Knights and Knaves, or wherever there's people pretending to be elves and kicking orcs in the junk and taking their stuff.


----------



## Lou

*My four cents*



JohnRTroy said:


> My only objection is the confusing name--I believe they need to respect how their Dad left things and don't make it look like they have "inherited the throne", nor attempt to try to trademark the term "Gygax" by itself (which is how the logo looks), which I think is what Gail meant by respect.  I'm sure Gary would object to the use of the surname by itself on a magazine if he was not involved in it at all.  If they were actually more involved in Gary's creative efforts, were being groomed as the heirs both legal and creative (with Gary making specific statements to that regard), etc., and then suddenly they were cut out by Gail, I could see my opinion being different, but that doesn't appear to be the case here.
> 
> Speaking of Law, I believe S'Mon is right about the TSR thing.  Abandonment of the Trademark rather than never having it in the first place, _An abandoned mark is not irrevocably in the public domain, but may instead be re-registered by any party which has re-established exclusive and active use, and must be associated or linked with the original mark owner._




Four things jump out here: 

1. A trademark is an indication of source of goods or services. A surname can become a trademark through use in commerce, if it is used as an indication of source. Busch(R) and Coors(R) are examples for beer.

2. There are different types of trademark rights in the US: common law rights, state law rights, and federal rights). The most important facts are start date, continuous use in commerce, and the extent of the use. There are also related rights under, mostly, state law in the US. A US federal trademark registration would be a superior right in the US, especially if it withstood attacks for 5 years of continuous use and a renewal.

3. Confusion is a tricky issue in trademark law. It will be even more difficult in this case, where Ernie Gygax and others with the Gygax name are involved. This would be very fact intensive and could go either way. My money is on whoever hires the better lawyers.

4. I don't believe that your last requirement for using an abandoned trade mark, namely "must be associated or linked with the original mark owner" is a real requirement. In the US, unless the mark has become generic, anyone can start using an abandoned mark and start creating trademark rights.


----------



## Leif

Lou said:


> Four things jump out here:
> 
> 1. A trademark is an indication of source of goods or services. A surname can become a trademark through use in commerce, if it is used as an indication of source. Busch(R) and Coors(R) are examples for beer.
> 
> 2. There are different types of trademark rights in the US: common law rights, state law rights, and federal rights). The most important facts are start date, continuous use in commerce, and the extent of the use. There are also related rights under, mostly, state law in the US. A US federal trademark registration would be a superior right in the US, especially if it withstood attacks for 5 years of continuous use and a renewal.
> 
> 3. Confusion is a tricky issue in trademark law. It will be even more difficult in this case, where Ernie Gygax and others with the Gygax name are involved. This would be very fact intensive and could go either way. My money is on whoever hires the better lawyers.
> 
> 4. I don't believe that your last requirement for using an abandoned trade mark, namely "must be associated or linked with the original mark owner" is a real requirement. In the US, unless the mark has become generic, anyone can start using an abandoned mark and start creating trademark rights.



Thanks, Bro, I knew you could give us the lowdown!


----------



## Lou

S'mon said:


> I would actually think it a lot more likely that the "TSR" Trade Mark could be struck off due to making use of a famous brand which still has residual business goodwill, than that they could get into trouble for using their own "Gygax" name, which has only ever had limited business use. But that's in UK law; US law varies by State.




US trademark law is layered--federal, state, and common law. A US federal registration has superior rights in most cases to any state law trademark. But the primary issues are always the same: date of first use in commerce, continuous use in commerce, and the extent of the use. The US federal registration for TSR(R) is currently good for use for gaming. Interesting to note that there are now 11 active US registered trademarks of "TSR" in various industries.

Your analysis on goodwill has a hole: goodwill for whom? The "famous brand" you describe was abandoned by that mark holder.

The Gygax name is a different can of worms with a different fact pattern.

[edit]For the sake of full disclosure, as I have mentioned elsewhere on EnWorld, I am a US Patent Attorney and a licensed Attorney in the state of Texas. In the US, any licensed attorney of any state may practice trademark law before the USPTO.[/edit]


----------



## S'mon

Lou said:


> 4. I don't believe that your last requirement for using an abandoned trade mark, namely "must be associated or linked with the original mark owner" is a real requirement. In the US, unless the mark has become generic, anyone can start using an abandoned mark and start creating trademark rights.




I agree; assignment of rights on bankruptcy is a special case, and different from abandonment.

From what I can see:

1) Currently nobody has a registered mark in Gygax, and nobody has been using it in commerce in many years (and even then to a very limited extent), so AFAICS no trade mark rights vest in the word. 

2) The Gygax brothers and the estate of Gary Gygax both have some personality-right claim to the word, personality rights being a fuzzy area that varies by State.


----------



## S'mon

Lou said:


> Your analysis on goodwill has a hole: goodwill for whom? The "famous brand" you describe was abandoned by that mark holder.




In English law it appears that a business may retain residual business goodwill in a brand even if it has not been used in commerce for some years.

However a passing off claim also requires a Misrepresentation - eg the infringer is using the brand to misrepresent the source of the new goods/services as coming from the old TM owner. It sounds as if the US systems work similarly in practice.


----------



## DMofDoom

This thread was a bit of a rollercoaster, but in the end I have to say it leaves me with a lot of disgust, however, none of it directed towards *any* of the *Gygaxi *(plural of Gygax), nor towards *Gygax magazine*.  And not at _everyone_ who posted in this thread.  

The term disgust feels a tad mild in fact, but it will do.

*I can't wait to check it out (Gygax Magazine).*

(I feel I should say I am not privy to any details of EGG's family history, save that he was married more than once, and had several children)

For all the many trolls, and yes you _are_ trolls, who will troll (aptly so) all they can about this: I couldn't give a cup of piss about your opinions, so have at it.

When someone, your father perhaps, dies - he can't _"pass on the torch"_ - cause he's dead.

_Sometimes_ the feelings someone might have, towards a father that started a new family, change over time.  Especially after their passing. 

_You can't change what you did (or didn't)_, or how your relationship played out, with someone who is deceased. * No matter how much* you might want to.  

You _can_ change how you remember them.  You can yell into the darkness "Yes I want to spend time with you father!"  And pick up his torch, light your brother's from it.  And try to carry that torch somewhere that would make him proud, or maybe just make him smile.

*You* can be* your father's so*n.
Anyone can.  Try and stop them.  
And you *don't* have to compromise* your* other feelings to do it. (or bend the knee)  You will *never* know what they would think of it, but you will learn more about them, their friends, and yourself.

Wheedle and whine and chip your two cents at whoever will listen.  See how far it that goes, surely nations must be trembling from the shock and audacity of a dormant, unsolicited, email newsletter.  

"I have been deceived!" you wail, "This would have me think it was _related_ to _*gaming*_ and _*Gygax*_!   This magazine_ about gaming_ from the _sons of *Gygax*_." you howl,  "Tricked! Fooled! Foul!  I was made to think he lived!   That it was related to his _legacy_!  Not his kids!  His legacy!  *Something CREATED and SHAPED by him!*" (something must have failed here to click)
_*Take your morals from law and see where that leads you.*_

Let your jowls flap as you shake your head at the disgusting brazenness of these sons using their _own_ name, their_ father's_ name, in an endeavor following, however tentatively, _alongside_ their father's footsteps.


----------



## qstor

Lou said:


> 3. Confusion is a tricky issue in trademark law. It will be even more difficult in this case, where Ernie Gygax and others with the Gygax name are involved. This would be very fact intensive and could go either way. My money is on whoever hires the better lawyers.




Lawyer here but don't know IP stuff. Didnt all the rights etc owned by TSR get sold to WotC. so I don't understand how someone can claim to copyright the words TSR and link them to OSR stuff?

Mike


----------



## Morrus

DMofDoom said:


> This thread was a bit of a rollercoaster, but in the end I have to say it leaves me with a lot of disgust, however, none of it directed towards *any* of the *Gygaxi *(plural of Gygax), nor towards *Gygax magazine*. And not at _everyone_ who posted in this thread.
> 
> The term disgust feels a tad mild in fact, but it will do.
> 
> *I can't wait to check it out (Gygax Magazine).*
> 
> (I feel I should say I am not privy to any details of EGG's family history, save that he was married more than once, and had several children)
> 
> For all the many trolls, and yes you _are_ trolls, who will troll (aptly so) all they can about this: I couldn't give a cup of piss about your opinions, so have at it.
> 
> When someone, your father perhaps, dies - he can't _"pass on the torch"_ - cause he's dead.
> 
> _Sometimes_ the feelings someone might have, towards a father that started a new family, change over time. Especially after their passing.
> 
> _You can't change what you did (or didn't)_, or how your relationship played out, with someone who is deceased. *No matter how much* you might want to.
> 
> You _can_ change how you remember them. You can yell into the darkness "Yes I want to spend time with you father!" And pick up his torch, light your brother's from it. And try to carry that torch somewhere that would make him proud, or maybe just make him smile.
> 
> *You* can be* your father's so*n.
> Anyone can. Try and stop them.
> And you *don't* have to compromise* your* other feelings to do it. (or bend the knee) You will *never* know what they would think of it, but you will learn more about them, their friends, and yourself.
> 
> Wheedle and whine and chip your two cents at whoever will listen. See how far it that goes, surely nations must be trembling from the shock and audacity of a dormant, unsolicited, email newsletter.
> 
> "I have been deceived!" you wail, "This would have me think it was _related_ to _*gaming*_ and _*Gygax*_! This magazine_ about gaming_ from the _sons of *Gygax*_." you howl, "Tricked! Fooled! Foul! I was made to think he lived! That it was related to his _legacy_! Not his kids! His legacy! *Something CREATED and SHAPED by him!*" (something must have failed here to click)
> _*Take your morals from law and see where that leads you.*_
> 
> Let your jowls flap as you shake your head at the disgusting brazenness of these sons using their _own_ name, their_ father's_ name, in an endeavor following, however tentatively, _alongside_ their father's footsteps.




Well, you're certainly _angrier_ than any participant in this thread, or any of the involved parties, I'll give you that much. More so than the issue might warrant, IMO, but your emotions are your emotions, I guess. And you _certainly_ *have more* _of_ *a* _handle_ _on_ *the* _italic_ and* bold*_ and underline tags_ than anyone else, so I'll congratulate you on that (slacking a little on the CAPS though). 

However - and this is your first post, I see - please refrain from insulting other EN World members. If you're unclear as to the rules of the site, you can find them here. This includes calling other members "trolls" and phrases like "I couldn't give a cup of piss about your opinions". Any questions abut that, feel free to email me.


----------



## jonesy

DMofDoom said:


> Let your jowls flap as you shake your head at the disgusting brazenness of these sons using their own name, their father's name, in an endeavor following, however tentatively, alongside their father's footsteps.



Gail also has rights here. WotC might have something to say. And in the initial confusion nobody even knew that the Gygax guys had anything to do with it. The situation wasn't and isn't as simple as you seem to assume.


----------



## Morrus

jonesy said:


> And in the initial confusion nobody even knew that the Gygax guys had anything to do with it.




That's something a lot of people seem to be losing sight of - applying restrospective knowledge in hindsight. All we had at first was "Gygax Magazine from TSR - Give Us Your Email Addy!" and scepticism was sensible position to take. Most everybody was pleased to find out the Gygaxes were involved.

Those who are suggesting someone accused the Gygax boys of a scam are not paying attention.  The most common consensus is "I'm glad to hear it wasn't somebody abusing the Gygax's good name as it looked at first that it might be; I'll wait see what this magazine is like".


----------



## DMofDoom

Comment about trolls was not directed at all posters, though could have been worded better, was/is aimed at then-future replies.  And maybe towards snarky redirective arguments, especially citing things like the meta layout of a post (1/2 j/k).  


Morrus said:


> Well, you're certainly _angrier_  than any participant in this thread, or any of the involved parties,  I'll give you that much. More so than the issue might warrant, IMO, but  your emotions are your emotions, I guess. And you _certainly_ *have more* _of_ *a* _handle_ _on_ *the* _italic_ and* bold*_ and underline tags_ than anyone else, so I'll congratulate you on that (slacking a little on the CAPS though).
> 
> However - and this is your first post, I see - please  refrain from insulting other EN World members. If you're unclear as to  the rules of the site, you can find them here.  This includes calling other members "trolls" and phrases like "I  couldn't give a cup of piss about your opinions". Any questions abut  that, feel free to email me.



Use of mod voice to belittle my opinion is fair, as you are the owner, (cred given for not auto-deleting thing you dislike though)
My anger was not directed (though may have spilled over a bit) at you or those skeptical of a strange email notification website.


 What I found angering was things like this: (emphasis added)


Olgar Shiverstone said:


> Meh.
> 
> As an outside observer and potential consumer, I find the attempt to grab customers by *playing on an inferred relationship* using the names "Gygax" and "TSR" *to be misleading and offensive*.  I'll pass, thanks.
> 
> They did get me to post, though, so score one for publicity.






GMforPowergamers said:


> I wonder how people would feel if WotC had kept the TSR name, hired luke as a consultant and put out the exact same mag.... money grab would be the nicest thing anyone would say.
> 
> I feel like* this is still a scam*, and hope they change the name...



And to a_ much lesser_ extent those that seem to think those assertions do not exist, and assume everything is in response to their own posts like: (again emphasis added)


Morrus said:


> That's something a lot of people seem to be losing  sight of - applying restrospective knowledge in hindsight. All we had  at first was "Gygax Magazine from TSR - Give Us Your Email Addy!" and  scepticism was sensible position to take. Most everybody was pleased to  find out the *Gygaxes* were involved.
> 
> *Those who are suggesting someone accused the Gygax boys of a scam are  not paying attention.*  The most common consensus is "I'm glad to hear it  wasn't somebody abusing the Gygax's good name as it looked at first  that it might be; I'll wait see what this magazine is like".




In way of a communications disconnect *on my part* I suppose for not quoting these (2nd and 3rd) to begin with.

I feel it is very important also to point out that the plural form of Gygax, is _Gygaxi.

_


jonesy said:


> Gail also has rights here. WotC might have  something to say. And in the initial confusion nobody even knew that the  Gygax guys had anything to do with it. The situation wasn't and isn't  as simple as you seem to assume.




Yes she has rights, thats between them though isn't it?  I suppose idle speculation is harmless though perhaps pointless IMHO.  As to the initial confusion: the 2nd and 3rd quotes are from 15 pages into the thread.  Well after their participation was established.


----------



## Lanefan

qstor said:


> Lawyer here but don't know IP stuff. Didnt all the rights etc owned by TSR get sold to WotC. so I don't understand how someone can claim to copyright the words TSR and link them to OSR stuff?



Didn't someone up-thread note that (for whatever reason) WotC has in effect abandoned the TSR trademark, or something like that?

'Cause if they have abandoned it, it sounds like anyone who wants it can step in and take it; and in this instance someone has.

Lan-"for it is the stuff of lawyers, and thus confusing"-efan


----------



## DMofDoom

my bad, 14 pages in, not 15


----------



## jonesy

DMofDoom said:


> Yes she has rights, thats between them though isn't it?



Really. Then perhaps you might wish to review the manner in which you entered this discussion, because you seem to not have read it yourself.


----------



## DMofDoom

Jonesy can you elaborate/explain?  Your statement confuses me.


----------



## Nellisir

DMofDoom said:


> my bad, 14 pages in, not 15




Dude, trust me, you're really going to need to chill out a bit.  Take a deep breath, relax, and read a different thread for awhile or something.  Watch something soothing. And then give people the benefit of the doubt.

Having your first post be an angry one, and calling out Morrus on your second post...it's not a good way to win friends and impress people.  

I'm not a moderator, just some friendly advice.


----------



## Nellisir

DMofDoom said:


> I feel it is very important also to point out that the plural form of Gygax, is Gygaxi.




I think you really need to cite an authority beyond your own here.  Everything I've found indicates that by default, in the English language, words ending in -x are made plural with -es.

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/plurals.htm


----------



## DMofDoom

That bit was humour.  I do think it sounds cooler though.  Just try using it more.  English is a living language after all... but ok, I'll go chill. or actually go do homework due tonight.


----------



## Nellisir

DMofDoom said:


> That bit was humour.  I do think it sounds cooler though.  Just try using it more.  English is a living language after all... but ok, I'll go chill. or actually go do homework due tonight.




That...totally did not read as humor.  Glad to hear it, though!  

And yeah, go do your homework and I'll do mine.  (Caernarfon Castle as a sustainable structure. Upside: Caernarfon Castle and King Edward "Longshanks" I.  Downside: due midday tomorrow.)


----------



## Leif

qstor said:


> Lawyer here but don't know IP stuff. Didnt all the rights etc owned by TSR get sold to WotC. so I don't understand how someone can claim to copyright the words TSR and link them to OSR stuff?
> 
> Mike



Lawyer here, too, but no IP specialist.  Still, let me take a stab at it:

The mark/name "TSR" was abandoned by Wizards of the Coast, UNLESS they took steps to maintain their legal ownership of the mark before they chose not to use it.  When WotC made the active business decision to no longer use that mark in their business, if it was abandoned and not maintained by them, then the clock began to tick until the time when it could again be used in the RPG field without doing damage to the IP purchased by WotC.  I'm not sure what the specific period is here, or even if there is a certain period under the applicable copyright law, but my sense is that the more time has passed since the abandonment of the mark, the less damage can be claimed, let alone proved, because of any supposed infringement.  I do know that a third party would be in a better position to revive the TSR mark than would someone who had some interest in the company from before, because that person's claimed rights to the mark were specifically subject to the sale to WotC.


----------



## Knightfall

Just as an aside, WotC didn't just abandon the TSR Trademark. As noted on the TSR Games and Gygax Magazine thread on The Piazza, WotC has also let the Mystara Trademark lapse.

Now, I'm not sure what another RPG company (that chose to claim it) could do with the Mystara Trademark (I'm not even sure if it could be claimed), but I find it fascinating that WotC didn't renew it.


----------



## falcarrion

To me it doesn't matter what the name is. what matters to me is who is behind it. and they have my confidence. I just hope the Name problem is resolve peacfully. The gaming industry doesn't need a legal battle but a joining of forces to stregthen the industry.


----------



## Leif

falcarrion said:


> To me it doesn't matter what the name is. what matters to me is who is behind it. and they have my confidence. I just hope the Name problem is resolve peacfully. The gaming industry doesn't need a legal battle but a joining of forces to stregthen the industry.



Agreed!


----------



## darjr

Leif said:


> ...UNLESS they took steps to maintain their legal ownership of the mark before they chose not to use it.




would the continued use of the www.tsr.com domain count here?


----------



## Lou

darjr said:


> would the continued use of the www.tsr.com domain count here?




Under other circumstances, the answer would clearly be YES.

Here, I would argue that with 11 different registered marks for "TSR", no one company has a clear claim to the TSR.com domain that would outweigh the continued use by WotC. At the same time, WotC gave up the use of the TSR mark while continuing to use the TSR.com domain as a redirect only.


----------



## darjr

From over on Board Game Geek I hear of Jayson on the RFI podcast and he adds a bit of news about content.
http://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/14960/tsr-games-announces-gygax-magazine-coming-in-decem

http://rfipodcast.com/show/2012/11/25/volume-3-issue-102-gygax-magazine/


----------



## Leif

Lou said:


> Under other circumstances, the answer would clearly be YES.
> 
> Here, I would argue that with 11 different registered marks for "TSR", no one company has a clear claim to the TSR.com domain that would outweigh the continued use by WotC. At the same time, WotC gave up the use of the TSR mark while continuing to use the TSR.com domain as a redirect only.



But, Bro, continued use of the mark is not the same as continuing legal protection of the mark, except in the most general, common law fashion, which in this case would probably be adequate.  I mean, who in his right mind would start an rpg company with the name TSR and think that he was writing upon a clean slate?


----------



## talien

Hi All,

Got to the bottom of the speculation by just talking directly to Jayson: http://www.examiner.com/article/interview-with-jayson-elliott-founder-of-the-new-tsr

Hopefully this clears some things up.


----------



## darjr

Great interview! Lots to think about and digest. I hope it works out for them. I know I can't wait to read the magazine.


----------



## wicked.fable

talien: Thanks for the link. Good bunch of info in there.

I wonder what the subscription model will be like for the digital version (e.g. cheaper?). I know that the focus is on getting the print magazine out first, but I personally don't subscribe to that kind of thing anymore - though this, of course, could be a good exception to that.


----------



## talien

It's a good question.  My guess is that the Kickstarter will divulge more of that info next year, and I could easily see the digital subscription being one of the tiers (pure speculation on my part).


----------

