# Martial Power 2 - Comments, Reviews, Noteworthy Stuff?



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 18, 2010)

So, Martial Power 2 is out. What's the verdict? What kind of cool stuff did you find? What seems broken? What seems weak? What is just too awesome to not immediately create a new character for?

I was a little disappointed that I didn't find something particularly exciting for my Dragonborn Warlord. The Paragon Paths didn't seem much more interesting than before, but maybe I missed something? 

There are a few new at-wills I'd probably want to try out at some point.

I wished the "Flavor"/"Story" section of the book was a little longer. The Primal Power book seemed a lot more interesting in that regard. 

There is finally a Smart Rogue build! It focuses on Stealth and hiding! It doesn't adress its defense weakness - except indirectly, as if you pick that build, you are less likely to be attacked since you're often hidden anyway.


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## JPL (Feb 18, 2010)

Hey, somebody tell me about the jack of all trades paragon path.  I have a notion to combine it with that recent Dragon article about the versatile weapon master to make the ultimate adaptable fighter/rogue.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 18, 2010)

JPL said:


> Hey, somebody tell me about the jack of all trades paragon path.  I have a notion to combine it with that recent Dragon article about the versatile weapon master to make the ultimate adaptable fighter/rogue.



Jack of All Trades Paragon Path? WIthout the book, this is what I remember: 
+2 to all skill checks. (Not feat bonus, not merely for untrained skills. Just for every one of them). 3 extra trained skills at level 16.


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## DracoSuave (Feb 18, 2010)

Marauder Rangers just might be the first ranger that doesn't want Twin-Strike!

Throw and Stab and Marauder's Rush...

Thrown weapon damage, followed by main weapon + Strength + Wisdom damage...

...as your at-will!


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## Klaus (Feb 18, 2010)

I'd love to hear more of the Smart rogue build.

Any good things for a beastmaster?


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 18, 2010)

Klaus said:


> I'd love to hear more of the Smart rogue build.



He uses Intelligence as secondary ability score. Duh. 

He gets some stealth-related replacement/variant for Rogue Tactics. 

When I am home, I might be able to tell you more. My memory is more Mordekainen's Magnificent Sieve then Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer.



> Any good things for a beastmaster?



Lots of feat is what I definitely remember.


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## Klaus (Feb 18, 2010)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> He uses Intelligence as secondary ability score. Duh.
> 
> He gets some stealth-related replacement/variant for Rogue Tactics.
> 
> ...



Man, can't they update the Character Builder faster?


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## Nymrohd (Feb 18, 2010)

All beast types get a heroic level feat that allows them to act within 10 squares of the ranger when he is unconcious and augments some of their attacks (charge or melee basic, some interesting controllerish effects). And grouped in two they also gain paragon feats (for instance wolves and bears push 1 with all their melee basic attacks).


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## Nymrohd (Feb 18, 2010)

Btw something I consider extremely awesome: Epic rogue feat that allows you to pick a second Rogue Tactics option.


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## Mostlyjoe (Feb 18, 2010)

It's all looking good. I'm just worried that we won't see things like Arcane or Primal Power 2.


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## jbear (Feb 18, 2010)

Throw and Stab will be the first power to be errated, I'd bank money on that.

Charge as an effect??? Imagine what a Hybrid Barbarian ranger could do with that:

Thrown Weapon Damage + Prey Damage + Howling Strike (with a Bastard Sword)... add in a Horned Helm a Vanguard Weapon and....Broken...

A Hybrid Warlock can easily abuse it with Eldritch Strike as well (as it counts as a melee basic attack) and trigger both Prey Dmg and Curse Damage with one attack.

How do they miss things like this?


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## jbear (Feb 18, 2010)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> So, Martial Power 2 is out. What's the verdict? What kind of cool stuff did you find? What seems broken? What seems weak? What is just too awesome to not immediately create a new character for?
> 
> I was a little disappointed that I didn't find something particularly exciting for my Dragonborn Warlord. The Paragon Paths didn't seem much more interesting than before, but maybe I missed something?
> 
> ...



I'm surprised you didn't like the Warlord's new at-wills.

is it Insightful Strike? Weapon Attack vs Will!!!! And a bonus 1 + Car or Wis on bonus for all allies attacks with CA... that is a Righteous Brand on Steroids! A tightly coordinated and synergised party would have afield day with that. Distant Advantage becomes a must have.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 18, 2010)

jbear said:


> I'm surprised you didn't like the Warlord's new at-wills.
> 
> is it Insightful Strike? Weapon Attack vs Will!!!! And a bonus 1 + Car or Wis on bonus for all allies attacks with CA... that is a Righteous Brand on Steroids! A tightly coordinated and synergised party would have afield day with that. Distant Advantage becomes a must have.



I... I...

Wait, what's that behind you? 
Look, a pink elephant!


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 18, 2010)

Klaus said:


> I'd love to hear more of the Smart rogue build.



The Smart Rogue build is supposed to use the new Rogue Tactics option, _Cunning Sneak_. Penalties to Stealth checks for movement are lessened, and you can use concealment and cover to hide if you move a certain minimum distance from your last position.

Also you replace Weapon Talent with Sharpshooter Talent, which grants you a bonus either with slings or crossbows. So it is a more guide toward ranged attacks from hiding.



> Any good things for a beastmaster?



There are a few new Beast powers, plus the aforementioned feats.


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## JPL (Feb 18, 2010)

Just read about the Prince of Knaves paragon path, for Warlords trained in Thievery.  Warlords and Rogues make a very fine combo . . . glad to see a paragon path along these lines.

There's a lot of unmined gold in combining different classes for paragon paths.  We have a storm-barbarian and a storm-sorcerer --- why not make a good paragon path combining the two?  I know we don't officially have the monk yet, but thematically, doesn't monk combine with just about ANYTHING?


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## DracoSuave (Feb 18, 2010)

jbear said:


> Throw and Stab will be the first power to be errated, I'd bank money on that.
> 
> Charge as an effect??? Imagine what a Hybrid Barbarian ranger could do with that:
> 
> ...




Marauding Ranger is a build based around throwing things and charging things.  Often in the same motion.  Horned Helms and Vanguard weapons will find their way in there.  As will Bastard Swords.  The big question is whether Marauder Fighting Style or Hunter Fighting Style is best to go with it... do you want the TWD and the extra movement, or do you want Quick-Draw, quick sheath of weapons, and the +4 to defenses against OAs from ranged attacks.

Cause then you're going Tratnyrs and Mordenkrads, my friend.

I don't think they missed it.  Why do you need 'barbarian' at all when the power above it is 1[W]+Strength+Wisdom damage and can be used instead of MBA on a charge.  If wisdom is 18, it's better than howling strike.

Miss it?  Dare I say that sort of thing is intentional.

The sky is not falling.

As for the second... again, you're saying that a power is broken because... let me get this straight, in heroic tier it does the same amount of damage as the single-class build provided you in the booK?

Seriously.  It's a ranger.  Heaven forbid they get a build where Twin-Strike isn't the weapon of choice.


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## renau1g (Feb 18, 2010)

It would certainly take a lot to try and unseat, or even challenge, Twin Strike as the premier at-will for every ranger build. At least now there's an option. Is Hurl Weapon only for barbarians? If not, take Hurl weapon so you can throw a bastard sword, then charge in with it (assuming a magical weapon that returns to your hand)


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## DracoSuave (Feb 18, 2010)

renau1g said:


> It would certainly take a lot to try and unseat, or even challenge, Twin Strike as the premier at-will for every ranger build. At least now there's an option. Is Hurl Weapon only for barbarians? If not, take Hurl weapon so you can throw a bastard sword, then charge in with it (assuming a magical weapon that returns to your hand)




Yes, it's barbarian only, and no, bastard swords do not have the off-hand trait so cannot be thrown with Hurl Weapon.


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## Kwalish Kid (Feb 18, 2010)

renau1g said:


> It would certainly take a lot to try and unseat, or even challenge, Twin Strike as the premier at-will for every ranger build. At least now there's an option. Is Hurl Weapon only for barbarians? If not, take Hurl weapon so you can throw a bastard sword, then charge in with it (assuming a magical weapon that returns to your hand)



Only actual thrown magic weapons return when thrown. One could have a bastard sword that is a farbond spellblade that acts as a thrown weapon.


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## DracoSuave (Feb 18, 2010)

Kwalish Kid said:


> Only actual thrown magic weapons return when thrown. One could have a bastard sword that is a farbond spellblade that acts as a thrown weapon.




I'd rather have a Farbond Fullblade for a Marauder Ranger.

If I'm spending a feat, I might as well spend it on something mighty.


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## renau1g (Feb 18, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> Yes, it's barbarian only, and no, bastard swords do not have the off-hand trait so cannot be thrown with Hurl Weapon.




You can hybrid with barbarian, take Whirling Slayer as Hybrid Talent and *bam* now you can treat one-handed weapons as off-hand weapons. Not sure if the Ranger Two-Weapon Fighting Style would qualify also, might depend on DM.


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## Dice4Hire (Feb 18, 2010)

> Steely Persuasion Fighter Utility 10
> _Your skill with the blade is enough to daunt even stalwart foes._
> Encounter. Martial Free Action Personal
> Trigger: You make an Intimidate check or a Streetwise check
> ...




I really like this fighter utility power. Yes, it is powerful, but the visual image is amazing. ALso good for non-combat uses, which is rare.


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## DracoSuave (Feb 18, 2010)

renau1g said:


> You can hybrid with barbarian, take Whirling Slayer as Hybrid Talent and *bam* now you can treat one-handed weapons as off-hand weapons. Not sure if the Ranger Two-Weapon Fighting Style would qualify also, might depend on DM.




Or I can use a farbond Fullblade and not hybrid and be able to toss-and-charge.

Three feats to do something less powerful than one is bad CharOp.


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## Insight (Feb 18, 2010)

The new Ranger class feature, Running Attack, appears to need errata or revision.  According to the feature, if you use a standard action that lets you move (and this right here is ambiguous -- "lets you move" or "forces you to charge/move"?), and you end that movement at least 2 squares away from where you began that move, you gain a bonus to attack rolls as part of that standard action.

I went through the PHB, MP1, and MP2 and found very few Ranger powers that "let you move" as part of a standard action.  A few force you to charge, so I suppose that should be included.  Now, if it's intended to include shifts, it opens up a lot more possibilities.  Unfortunately, the two examples given of qualifying powers/abilities (charging and the Skirmish Shot power) are moves and not shifts.

If this is pretty much meant only for charging, I suppose that's all right, although in that case, pairing it up with the new Hunter Fighting Style is a little odd, considering that appears to be targeted at ranged characters.


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## DracoSuave (Feb 18, 2010)

Insight said:


> Now, if it's intended to include shifts, it opens up a lot more possibilities.




That's a BINGO!

Shifting is still moving.

But, it's better than what melee rangers get which is... well... nothing at all.

As for Hunters.... they're ranged/melee hybrids.  They're designed to switch back and forth at will, hense the QuickDraw and QuickSheathe abilities.  Plus the handful of Dexterity melee attacks.


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## Insight (Feb 18, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> That's a BINGO!
> 
> Shifting is still moving.




Well, that's the part that's open for debate.  Shifting and moving are different things in the rules and the two examples given are moves and not shifts.  I can't imagine they meant move only because they are few Ranger powers that would fit this ability.  It certainly needs to be clarified.


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## DracoSuave (Feb 18, 2010)

Insight said:


> Well, that's the part that's open for debate.  Shifting and moving are different things in the rules.




No. Shifting is moving with special rules attached.  When you are shifting, you are moving.

SHIFT: MOVE ACTION
Movement: *Move 1 square.*


When said thing says 'Move' as part of its rules text, you are moving.

There is no debate on it that is open and rational.


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## oakbriar (Feb 19, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> But, it's better than what melee rangers get which is... well... nothing at all.




not entirely true. any of the "gain prime shot bonus with melee" feats + Called Shot (D368) still seems worth it for a constant +1 on attacks/+5 on damage, but then again, that doesn't happen until paragon.


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## oakbriar (Feb 19, 2010)

Oooh, I was just taking a gander through MP1 and remembered the Avalanche Hurler PP. With Marauder style, this PP looks a lot more appealing.

Increased thrown dmg dice, some decent damaging powers, and an even better version of the Hunter style's quick draw? Seems pretty win.


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## N0Man (Feb 19, 2010)

I kind of wish they had included the section, "What is a Martial Power", which gives a fluff explanation for the power source.  Another section describes in character ways that one might describe/explain regaining of your expended exploits.

I didn't need such a thing, however maybe the existence of it could have cooled some really ridiculous edition war arguments and complaints about martial powers being "magic".

They seemed to have a greater amount of fluff and flavor text than most of the 4E books have, which also might appeal to some.  There's even a nice little section using your choice of weapon (flavor wise) be distinctive and expressive regarding your character, beyond the numbers, and a martial character's relationship with them (as an example).


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## DracoSuave (Feb 19, 2010)

N0Man said:


> I kind of wish they had included the section, "What is a Martial Power"




Batman uses Martial power.  Conan uses Martial power.  The Punisher uses Martial power.  Zhuge Liang uses Martial power.

It's rediculous superheroic levels of training or ability without involving magic.


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## Mengu (Feb 19, 2010)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I was a little disappointed that I didn't find something particularly exciting for my Dragonborn Warlord. The Paragon Paths didn't seem much more interesting than before, but maybe I missed something?




Inspiring Breath jumped out at me as a decent option, at least during heroic.


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## jbear (Feb 19, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> Marauding Ranger is a build based around throwing things and charging things.  Often in the same motion.  Horned Helms and Vanguard weapons will find their way in there.  As will Bastard Swords.  The big question is whether Marauder Fighting Style or Hunter Fighting Style is best to go with it... do you want the TWD and the extra movement, or do you want Quick-Draw, quick sheath of weapons, and the +4 to defenses against OAs from ranged attacks.
> 
> Cause then you're going Tratnyrs and Mordenkrads, my friend.
> 
> ...



Wow... 18 Wis... yes lethal. But your ac would be around 14 and your reflexes 11... your hp are going to be low with con 10... so, your probably going to die very fast.


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## davethegame (Feb 19, 2010)

N0Man said:


> I kind of wish they had included the section, "What is a Martial Power", which gives a fluff explanation for the power source.  Another section describes in character ways that one might describe/explain regaining of your expended exploits.
> 
> I didn't need such a thing, however maybe the existence of it could have cooled some really ridiculous edition war arguments and complaints about martial powers being "magic".
> 
> They seemed to have a greater amount of fluff and flavor text than most of the 4E books have, which also might appeal to some.  There's even a nice little section using your choice of weapon (flavor wise) be distinctive and expressive regarding your character, beyond the numbers, and a martial character's relationship with them (as an example).




I really liked that section on what martial characters do during a short rest- that seemed to seal the explanation to me.


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## Tav_Behemoth (Feb 19, 2010)

I can attest that online arguments about why martial powers are "magic" since they use the same limited-use mechanics as spells and prayers definitely inspired the writing of that section on regaining martial exploits.


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## Trainz (Feb 19, 2010)

As most power books, it's a lot of "meh" stuff with a few "OMG!!!" gems.

I play two characters (in two games), a bow ranger (18) and a warlord (14), so here are my must haves. Doesn't hurt that I'm currently level'ling up BOTH characters between game sessions!

Warlord: Direct The Strike (at will). Warlords are notoriously poor in AC, HP's and Surges, so it's nice to have the option to make your allies attack from afar.

Warlord: Fight On (feat). An extra Inspiring Word every fight? My Battle Captain will have one, yes please.

Ranger: Invigorating Stride (Utility 2/Encounter). Finally, a way for my ranger to use his second wind every encounter without having to sacrifice a standard action.

And for my particular builds... that's about it. Not much, but it did allow me to get rid of a few "meh..." things on my characters and replace them with "sweet!" things.


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## DracoSuave (Feb 19, 2010)

jbear said:


> Wow... 18 Wis... yes lethal. But your ac would be around 14 and your reflexes 11... your hp are going to be low with con 10... so, your probably going to die very fast.




Longtooth shifter can go 18/18, 13 Con, once bloodied get +2 to damage rolls, have regeneration which makes up for their slightly less constitution...


...and have Chainmail armor.


Not a bad little combo.


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## N0Man (Feb 20, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> Batman uses Martial power.  Conan uses Martial power.  The Punisher uses Martial power.  Zhuge Liang uses Martial power.
> 
> It's rediculous superheroic levels of training or ability without involving magic.




I get it.  I never had a problem with the flavor of martial power flavors.  I was saying that it would have been nice to have it earlier to shut up the absurd "Everyone is a caster in 4E now!  This sucks!" nonsense that I kept seeing parroted on the boards.  People would give reasonable explanations for it (as WotC did in MP2), and those who already had a bias would just attack it anyway because it was non-official, or they had a preconceived bias so they didn't want to consider it as legitimate.  It was quite tiresome.


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## Benlo (Feb 20, 2010)

N0Man said:


> I get it.  I never had a problem with the flavor of martial power flavors.  I was saying that it would have been nice to have it earlier to shut up the absurd "Everyone is a caster in 4E now!  This sucks!" nonsense that I kept seeing parroted on the boards.  People would give reasonable explanations for it (as WotC did in MP2), and those who already had a bias would just attack it anyway because it was non-official, or they had a preconceived bias so they didn't want to consider it as legitimate.  It was quite tiresome.



I was just a lurker here at the time, but oy vey, you're right. Some very nasty bickering was to be had there


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 20, 2010)

Trainz said:


> As most power books, it's a lot of "meh" stuff with a few "OMG!!!" gems.
> 
> I play two characters (in two games), a bow ranger (18) and a warlord (14), so here are my must haves. Doesn't hurt that I'm currently level'ling up BOTH characters between game sessions!
> 
> Warlord: Direct The Strike (at will). Warlords are notoriously poor in AC, HP's and Surges, so it's nice to have the option to make your allies attack from afar.



They are? Not that I'd say the power is bad, but my Warlord is definitely not lacking in the AC department. Of course I spend feats to use all shields and armor and have shield specialisation.


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## Dice4Hire (Feb 20, 2010)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> They are? Not that I'd say the power is bad, but my Warlord is definitely not lacking in the AC department. Of course I spend feats to use all shields and armor and have shield specialisation.




Well the Armored Warlord Feat will be nice. Scale armor and a healing surge with no ability or previous armor requirements is pretty nice. Of course with a rogue or such multied to warlord it could be even nicer......

Warlord generally have little or no problem getting AC due to their Str, and the book also allows giving up the +2 initiative for a decent power and heavy hsields

Heavily armored Warlords are coming.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 20, 2010)

Dice4Hire said:


> Well the Armored Warlord Feat will be nice. Scale armor and a healing surge with no ability or previous armor requirements is pretty nice. Of course with a rogue or such multied to warlord it could be even nicer......




Retraining for the win!


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## tiornys (Feb 20, 2010)

Armored Warlord requires the Battlefront Leader class feature, so it's no help to multiclassers or to pre-MP2 Warlord builds.  Still a nice feat though.

t~


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 20, 2010)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Retraining for the win!



On second thought. I don't want _Battle Front Leader_.

Edit: Ninjaed by tiornys. Probably testing one of these new Shadowy Rogue builds...


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## Trainz (Feb 20, 2010)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> They are? Not that I'd say the power is bad, but my Warlord is definitely not lacking in the AC department. Of course I spend feats to use all shields and armor and have shield specialisation.




Well, my warlord is average in AC (not good, not bad), but in the other campaign my friend's warlord's AC sucks. He went the Eladrin Greatspear way.

And he goes down QUICK when the DM puts the pressure on him. So did I in the last game session.

If I had that at will back then, I would have moved back and used it. So it's nice.


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## DracoSuave (Feb 20, 2010)

tiornys said:


> Armored Warlord requires the Battlefront Leader class feature, so it's no help to multiclassers or to pre-MP2 Warlord builds.  Still a nice feat though.
> 
> t~




Multiclass + Warlord armor proficiencies = Having nothing to do with each other.


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## ToddBS (Feb 21, 2010)

My copy is still in transit so I've only seen what's on DDI, but I'm rather disappointed there was no sword-n-board fighting style (sword in name only, really any weapon + shield fighting style).


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## Dice4Hire (Feb 21, 2010)

ToddBS said:


> My copy is still in transit so I've only seen what's on DDI, but I'm rather disappointed there was no sword-n-board fighting style (sword in name only, really any weapon + shield fighting style).




Not true, check out the Ninth Legion Commander style. You need a shield for that, plus a one-handed pick or spear, granted notthe usual weapons for board guys.


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## Benlo (Feb 21, 2010)

Dice4Hire said:


> Not true, check out the Ninth Legion Commander style. You need a shield for that, plus a one-handed pick or spear, granted notthe usual weapons for board guys.



True, true, but hey, picks needed a little love, so I don't mind. My Eladrin that I wanted to play would be using a trident probably, anyhow, so that's peachy for me.


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## tiornys (Feb 21, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> Multiclass + Warlord armor proficiencies = Having nothing to do with each other.



While you are correct, I don't understand what you're trying to say here.  All I was doing was correcting the bolded misapprehension in this previous post:


Dice4Hire said:


> Well the Armored Warlord Feat will be nice. Scale armor and a healing surge with no ability or previous armor requirements is pretty nice. *Of course with a rogue or such multied to warlord it could be even nicer......*
> 
> Warlord generally have little or no problem getting AC due to their Str, and the book also allows giving up the +2 initiative for a decent power and heavy hsields
> 
> Heavily armored Warlords are coming.




On another note, am I the only one who's excited by some of the new invigorating powers?

t~


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## DracoSuave (Feb 21, 2010)

tiornys said:


> While you are correct, I don't understand what you're trying to say here.  All I was doing was correcting the bolded misapprehension in this previous post:
> 
> 
> On another note, am I the only one who's excited by some of the new invigorating powers?
> ...




Quoted the wrong dude, I did.


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## Istar (Feb 22, 2010)

Nothing for dagger Rogues.

Whole Rogue emphathis for MP2 was to bring other options to the table like sling and ranged rogues, and stealth rogues, like they did with rapiers in the dragon article.

All they did that a dagger rogue can use is Expert Sneak, a way in my view stay out of flanking unless you want to.

Even all the special stye feats did well to offer anything up for daggers.

So not so bad for Rogue balance I guess.

Not much for a twin striking daggermaster though.


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## DracoSuave (Feb 22, 2010)

Istar said:


> Not much for a twin striking daggermaster though.




I rather LIKE Opportunity Knocks for any rogue.


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## Istar (Feb 22, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> I rather LIKE Opportunity Knocks for any rogue.




Yeah I saw that.

Along with Expert Sneak, you should really have CA most rounds without having to really work it or put yourself in compromising positions through flanking, and good for a ranged rogue.

But you know DM's they never like giving away OA's.

Of course having a Warden in your team at-will slowiing enemies should probably be enough combined with Expert Sneak.

Anyone know of a great magic hand-crossbow for 2F shooter rogues, now that Swiftshot is nerfed ?


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## DracoSuave (Feb 22, 2010)

Istar said:


> But you know DM's they never like giving away OA's.




That's the beauty of it... there's TWO triggers!

One of which is a harder thing for DMs to pass up... cause if they do... you get away with shinanegans scott free.


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## Benlo (Feb 22, 2010)

Besides, some DM's *cough-Me-cough* do give some OA's up when it's called for. Rats, for instance, are rather stupid like this. I think I also had it be an issue with drunk goblins.

Just depends on the circumstances.

Not having MP2 yet, do any of the combat styles utilize light blades? I remember one used the rapier, but other than that? I'll pick up the book sometime soon, just sort of curious as to what I have to look forward to in that regard.


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## Dice4Hire (Feb 22, 2010)

At least one style uses Light Blades.


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## Saeviomagy (Feb 22, 2010)

Istar said:


> Nothing for dagger Rogues.
> 
> Whole Rogue emphathis for MP2 was to bring other options to the table like sling and ranged rogues, and stealth rogues, like they did with rapiers in the dragon article.
> 
> ...




It seems like, as with MP, the focus for rogues was on taking things that are rogue specialities and giving them to other classes.

And what the hell is with the ranger-only feat that grants low-light??


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## DracoSuave (Feb 23, 2010)

Saeviomagy said:


> It seems like, as with MP, the focus for rogues was on taking things that are rogue specialities and giving them to other classes.
> 
> And what the hell is with the ranger-only feat that grants low-light??




To be fair, when I see 'Twin-Striking Daggermaster' that screams 'Ranger' to me, and not 'Rogue.'

So... actually, did they give dagger wielding rangers anything good?

Human TSDMs can take Twin-Strike, Chuck-and-Charge, and Marauder's STABSTABSTAB...

There's support.


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## Istar (Feb 23, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> To be fair, when I see 'Twin-Striking Daggermaster' that screams 'Ranger' to me, and not 'Rogue.'
> 
> So... actually, did they give dagger wielding rangers anything good?
> 
> ...




Chuck and charge are you crazy, what self respecting rogue needs to stand in the mist of battle anymore ?


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## DracoSuave (Feb 23, 2010)

Istar said:


> Chuck and charge are you crazy, what self respecting rogue needs to stand in the mist of battle anymore ?




The sort that abuses Twin-Strike.

I.E., Ranger multi-classed into Rogue for Daggermaster, which implies Iron Gauntlets.

A Hybrid can't use Sneak Attack with Twin-Strike, so that's out... and the only other way of getting Twin-Strike is to paragon multiclass, which rules out Daggermaster.


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## Istar (Feb 23, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> The sort that abuses Twin-Strike.
> 
> I.E., Ranger multi-classed into Rogue for Daggermaster, which implies Iron Gauntlets.
> 
> A Hybrid can't use Sneak Attack with Twin-Strike, so that's out... and the only other way of getting Twin-Strike is to paragon multiclass, which rules out Daggermaster.




This smacks of Racism, are you trying to say the Half-Elf does not deserve his racial feat of an extra at-will at L11.

How can you say that using your race feature is abuse ?

Half Elf Rogue that at L11 picks up Twin Strike and also takes Daggermaster PP.
Brutal Scoundrel dual stat so could use Str melee Twin Strike is need be.

Is their a race relations conciliator my character can take this to ?

p.s. what are "Iron Gauntlets" by the way ?


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## DracoSuave (Feb 23, 2010)

Istar said:


> This smacks of Racism, are you trying to say the Half-Elf does not deserve his racial feat of an extra at-will at L11.
> 
> How can you say that using your race feature is abuse ?
> 
> ...




Half-elf rogue picking up twin strike to abuse brutal scoundrel and daggermaster?

I'm unsure whether that is mad genius or pure folly.


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## andarilhor (Feb 23, 2010)

I don't know if anyone has adressed that question (I'm too lazy to read the entire thread), but are Archer Warlord and Battlefront Leader incompatible? Or If I take both gives me the Archer Warlord benefit, tha Battlefront Leader power and allow me to keep light shield proficiency?

Edit: Have read the entire thread and noone addessed my question


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## Dice4Hire (Feb 23, 2010)

andarilhor said:


> I don't know if anyone has adressed that question (I'm too lazy to read the entire thread), but are Archer Warlord and Battlefront Leader incompatible? Or If I take both gives me the Archer Warlord benefit, tha Battlefront Leader power and allow me to keep light shield proficiency?
> 
> Edit: Have read the entire thread and noone addessed my question




Battlefront leader replaces the Combat leader class feature, so no problem taking that and the archer warlord. 

I think you would have heavy shield, and not light shield. Take Armored Warlord feat for no chainmail, but scale proficiency for more fun.


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## Njall (Feb 23, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> I rather LIKE Opportunity Knocks for any rogue.




Well, considering that it's basically Artful Provocation ( an epic level feat first printed in MP1) on steroids, turned into a heroic feat and without the steep requirements, I can see why you like it


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## Mengu (Feb 23, 2010)

Istar said:


> This smacks of Racism, are you trying to say the Half-Elf does not deserve his racial feat of an extra at-will at L11.




Maybe half-elf does. Revenant certainly does not.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Feb 24, 2010)

andarilhor said:


> I don't know if anyone has adressed that question (I'm too lazy to read the entire thread), but are Archer Warlord and Battlefront Leader incompatible? Or If I take both gives me the Archer Warlord benefit, tha Battlefront Leader power and allow me to keep light shield proficiency?
> 
> Edit: Have read the entire thread and noone addessed my question




As far as I can tell, nothing prevents you from taking both archer warlord and battlefrond leader features. If you did so, you would end up with no chainmail proficiency (but access to a feat that gives you scale proficiency +1 healing surge) and no light shield proficiency but heavy shield proficiency. You would also have proficiency in military ranged weapons. Now, if that starts to sound like you're giving up nothing for something, it's a little more complex than that.

If you are an Int based archer warlord, you probably don't really want scale armor proficiency. You can get the same AC with hide. And you are passing up the ability to get combat commander (+Int to init for you and your party) by going with battlefront leader.

If you plan to use the archer warlord feature (bow, etc), then you probably can't take advantage of your heavy shield proficiency since bows and crossbows are both two handed weapons. 

And if all you are interested in is a more efficient way to improve your AC (scale mail, heavy shield, and a surge for the cost of one feat), then, while archer warlord costs you nothing you care about, it also doesn't benefit you because you're not going to spend the standard action to get rid of your shield in combat to actually use that bow proficiency.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Feb 24, 2010)

Elder-Basilisk said:


> If you plan to use the archer warlord feature (bow, etc), then you probably can't take advantage of your heavy shield proficiency since bows and crossbows are both two handed weapons.
> 
> And if all you are interested in is a more efficient way to improve your AC (scale mail, heavy shield, and a surge for the cost of one feat), then, while archer warlord costs you nothing you care about, it also doesn't benefit you because you're not going to spend the standard action to get rid of your shield in combat to actually use that bow proficiency.




Three words: Heavy Thrown Weapon


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## DracoSuave (Feb 24, 2010)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> Three words: Heavy Thrown Weapon




Then why would you take Archer Warlord in the first place?

Replacing Str for Dex with bows doesn't affect Heavy Thrown Weapons.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 24, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> Then why would you take Archer Warlord in the first place?
> 
> Replacing Str for Dex with bows doesn't affect Heavy Thrown Weapons.



To have powers that have: _*Ranged *Weapon. _

Basic ranged attacks using strength don't cut it.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Feb 24, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> Then why would you take Archer Warlord in the first place?
> 
> Replacing Str for Dex with bows doesn't affect Heavy Thrown Weapons.




Eh, you're right really. There's not much point in taking the Archer Warlord class feature in that case. Still, heavy thrown with warlord powers in general? Nice. Battlefront Leader? Yeah, its a nice combo. Tratnyr warlord


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## Dice4Hire (Feb 25, 2010)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> Eh, you're right really. There's not much point in taking the Archer Warlord class feature in that case. Still, heavy thrown with warlord powers in general? Nice. Battlefront Leader? Yeah, its a nice combo. Tratnyr warlord




A hungry Greatspear is better. Reach and thrown gives tons of options in combat. 

Hungry is from one of the Item sets in AVII. The property gives a spear range 10/20.


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## DracoSuave (Feb 25, 2010)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> To have powers that have: _*Ranged *Weapon. _
> 
> Basic ranged attacks using strength don't cut it.




Powers that have Ranged weapon are also not affected by Archer Warlord, if those powers are not 'Ranged Basic Attack' and the weapon is not a bow.

Warlord powers do not have Archer Warlord as a prerequisite in any way, shape, or form.  And other classes' powers are not affected by this class feature.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 25, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> Powers that have Ranged weapon are also not affected by Archer Warlord, if those powers are not 'Ranged Basic Attack' and the weapon is not a bow.
> 
> Warlord powers do not have Archer Warlord as a prerequisite in any way, shape, or form.  And other classes' powers are not affected by this class feature.



You are correct. It seems I either didn't read well enough or didn't think it through.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Feb 25, 2010)

Dice4Hire said:


> A hungry Greatspear is better. Reach and thrown gives tons of options in combat.
> 
> Hungry is from one of the Item sets in AVII. The property gives a spear range 10/20.




But if you are going to use a 2-handed weapon you are better off using a bow. A greatspear then becomes a good backup weapon since you won't want a shield in that case. However if you want to be able to operate at both range and melee its probably just as well to take javelin or tratnyr and Battlefront Leader and go with the heavy shield. No doubt there are plenty of good ways to build a new style warlord though. It'll take some experimentation to come up with the most ideal builds and I'm sure there will be a lot of good ones.


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## ToddBS (Feb 28, 2010)

Dice4Hire said:


> Not true, check out the Ninth Legion Commander style. You need a shield for that, plus a one-handed pick or spear, granted notthe usual weapons for board guys.




Finally got my book in the mail yesterday.  I'm actually quite pleased with the treatment given shield users in combat styles now that I have the complete picture.  

Not only is there the Ninth Legion style, but also the Kulkor Battlearm style.  While not requiring a shield per se, the associated Fighter skill is Tide of Iron.  Nerathan High Blade style also has some nice synergy with tanky types, though nothing relating specifically to the shield.

There are several nice new exploits relating to shield use as well.  Overall, my sword-n-board sensibilities have been assuaged.


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