# Let's build an imbalanced rogue



## Systole

Here's my first pass:

Scout/Swashbuckler.  Max out strength, take Lucerne Hammer for the Swashbuckler bonus.  Assuming 10th level human, the character would have a base Str of 22 and 8 feats (given that a Swashbuckler can take Combat Trick 2x).

For the feats, I'm looking at: Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack for sure.  The next ones would probably be Furious Focus, Nimble Moves, Weapon Focus.  Vital Strike wouldn't hurt, for those situations where he doesn't need to Spring Attack.

Assuming a Spring Attack, he gets 5d6 (sneak attack) + 2d6 (weapon) = 7d6 for base.  If he can move normally, this goes up to 9d6 from Vital Strike.


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## Bacris

Human Rogue (Scout, Thug)

Feats:
1st: Weapon Finesse
Human Bonus: Sap Adept
3rd: Knockout Artist
5th: Sap Mastery

Rogue Talents:
2nd: Ninja Trick (Unarmed Combat Training)
4th: Combat Trick (Enforcer)

So at 5th level, whenever you charge someone, they are flatfooted (thanks to scout). Since they are flat footed, you deal double nonlethal sneak attack damage (6d6, thanks to sap mastery).

Since you were using your pimp-hand to deal the damage, you deal 1.5 times your level in extra damage due to sap adept and knockout artist. (In this case at level 5, 9 extra damage)

Now Enforcer comes into play, you can intimidate your foe as a free action, because you dealth nonlethal damage (Hope you didn't dump cha). If you succeed, they are shaken for a number of rounds based on the damage you just did (6d6 + 9 minimum), so lets say, forever, basically.
Thats -2 to attacks, skills, saves.

...Or you could switch all those rounds of shaken for one round of frightend (via the thug archetype) where:

Quote:
A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.

Frightened is like shaken, except that the creature must flee if possible. Panicked is a more extreme state of fear.

Which is basically taking any enemy out of the fight for one round, guarunteed and best part is, no save. And since the target for intimidate is static (10 + HD + wis mod), boost it enough (I recommend a cane that gives you an enhancement bonus to intimidate) and you don't have to worry about the enemy making a lucky roll.

That's at 5th level, will expand to 10th.


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## StreamOfTheSky

Don't bother with Swashbuckler.  If you're using the UC, rogue can take Ninja Trick (Combat Trick) to gain Combat Trick twice.  Yeah, you could still take swashbuckler for a bonus feat THREE times.  But you only really need the ability to wholesale your godawful rogue talents 4 times (2, 4, 6, 8) before you get a bunch of godawful Advanced Talents instead.  With specific feat talents like Weapon Training and Finesse Fighter, getting Combat Trick twice should be sufficient.


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## Systole

Swashbuckler gives the bonus Combat Trick and the Martial Weapon training at the cost of Trapfinding and Trap Sense. NOT spending a feat on the MWP was the bigger draw, to be honest. Since this guy is probably not going to be the party skillmonkey, it seemed a good trade.

EDIT: Haven't they errata'ed the Ninja Combat trick + Rogue Combat Trick yet?


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## StreamOfTheSky

Rogue already gets proficiency with rapier, sap, and shortbow.  Others would be nice, but are not worth sacrificing the ability to take another archetype over.

Do these builds have to be rogue only?  The only truly viable rogue build using PF only rules I can think of requires dipping Oracle 1 in order to work.

If it does have to be rogue 20...I can try to submit a Thug or Rake ranged Rogue based around Shatter Defenses later tonight, but it will not be very good...


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## Systole

The reason I wanted the MWP is to have a good reach weapon. Makes moving around in combat slightly easier ... as opposed to making lots and lots of Acrobatics checks, which I know you love. Since this guy is also going to be moving lots, it makes Vital Strike more viable, if it comes to that.

I don't know if there are rules in this thread. The spirit of the original challenge was rogue-only, but it's not like I'm going to pick a winner and mail them some cookies, so if you want to make your pillbox-sniper rogue/mist oracle, have at it.


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## Bacris

The goal here is simply show that ANY pathfinder class, if built intentionally, can introduce game imbalance that will require GM intervention, and it is not an issue that only affects a single class.  The challenge was to show that even a rogue can do that.


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## StreamOfTheSky

I thought the goal of this is to show that even the most min-maxed optimized rogue possible is in the end no more imbalanced than a wizard who picked his spell selection by randomly throwing darts at a board while blindfolded.


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## tylermalan

I, too, thought that the idea was to show that Rogues can't break the game, even when they try.  Of course, in the context of the other thread, wouldn't it be better to give builds (for any class) that are unbelievably, extremely overpowered?


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## Bacris

tylermalan said:


> I, too, thought that the idea was to show that Rogues can't break the game, even when they try.  Of course, in the context of the other thread, wouldn't it be better to give builds (for any class) that are unbelievably, extremely overpowered?




I don't think anyone's contesting that other classes can do it.

The argument was that rogues can't.

I think I could pretty quickly find barbarian, druid, and other class builds that are overpowered.  I know that the fighter in the DPR olympics stood out as one of the top overall damage dealers.  I'd think a zen archery monk could be shown to be a nasty build.

My statement was "virtually any class" can introduce imbalance if done intentionally.  The challenge was to show a rogue could do it.


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## StreamOfTheSky

Since Bacris did intimidation based melee w/ sap master, I'll try a dagger thrower just to not be too similar.  Note: I'm using a shaky reading where Enforcer's "Whenever you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon" takes into account that dagger is classified as a melee weapon even if using it for a ranged _attack_.  Build literally falls apart w/o that RAW reading.

Human Thug Rogue
Traits: Blade of Mercy (can do nonlethal w/ any slashing weapon; +1 damage when doing so)

Feats:
1 TWF
1 Enforcer [Human]
2 Weapon Finesse [Finesse Rogue talent]
3 Quickdraw
4 Weapon Focus (Dagger) [Weapon Training Rogue talent]
5 PBS
6 Precise Shot [Ninja Trick (Combat Trick) Rogue talent]
7 Dazzling Display
8 Shatter Defenses [Combat Trick Rogue talent]
9 Rapid Shot
10 Improved Critical (Dagger) ["Feat" Rogue advanced talent]
11 Clustered Shots
12 (not sure we can throw away unique yet worthless class features for bonus feats anymore)
13 ITWF
14 (as with 12)
15 Improved Precise Shot


...yeah, that's pretty godawful and feat starved.  I didn't even want to make it human, but the feats were just too numerous.


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## StreamOfTheSky

In reponse to Systole:



Systole said:


> EDIT: Haven't they errata'ed the Ninja Combat trick + Rogue Combat Trick yet?




Rogue

"Ninja Trick (Ex): A rogue with this talent can choose a trick from the ninja trick list. The rogue can choose but cannot use talents that require ki points, unless she has a ki pool. A rogue can pick this talent more than once."

Ninja Trick (Ex) - Pathfinder_OGC

"Ninja Trick (Ex)

Benefit: A rogue with this talent can choose a trick from the ninja trick list. The rogue can choose but cannot use talents that require ki points, unless she has a ki pool. 

Special: A rogue can pick this talent more than once."

So...it appears that's a no.  I wouldn't be surprised if it happens soon, though.  Paizo has shown themselves to be pretty quick to act when the martials "need" a good nerfin'.


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## SteelDraco

Interesting. The ninja trick Rogue Talent says you can't take a talent with the same name as a ninja trick, but Ninja Trick for the rogue doesn't have equivalent text. I didn't notice that before.


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## StreamOfTheSky

It's one of the few advantages Rogue has over Ninja. 

And now...I'll attempt an archer utilizing Oracle dip.

Half-Elf Rake Rogue (no archetype really helps...Sniper would if DM houseruled their extended range to synergize w/ Sniper's Goggles).  Takes Dual-Cursed Oracle dip at 3, though it doesn't really matter when as long as it comes early on.  Curses are tongues and lame.  Used Ancestral Arms to trade skill focus for MWP (longbow).

Feats, talents, and revelations
1 Point Blank Shot
2 Rapid Shot [Combat Trick Rogue talent]
3 Water Sight Revelation [Oracle]
5 Extra Revelation (Misfortune)
5 Weapon Focus (longbow) [Weapon Training Rogue talent]
7 Deadly Aim
7 Dazzling Display
9 Clustered Shots
9 Shatter Defenses [Ninja Trick (Combat Trick) Rogue talent]

Sniper's Goggles ASAP is build critical so you're not limited to 30 ft for sneak attacking, as you'll be sitting tight in a cloud.  You use oracle slots and a wand to put up an obscuring mist.  Anyone not adjacent to you cannot see you and thus SA applies.  A seeking bow is also very important, since any miss chance at all screws a rogue over hard core.  The D-C oracle and misfortune is just cause it's a nice buff and debuff ability, if you don't want it, there is no reason at all to be dual-cursed.

A means of flight to hover in the air would be ideal.  This build was intended for a Vivv. alchemist w/ the Wings discovery, honestly.  Deadly Aim exists only to help against SA-immune foes; NEVER use it when you can sneak attack!  This build also ends up with Shatter Defenses (with Rake's intimidation option used on round 1 to set up a never-ending fountain of flatfooted-ness) as an alternate means of sneak attacking; there really isn't much in the way of feats needed beyond the big 3.

Obscuring Mist is vulnerable to fire attacks and winds, and Shatter Defenses fails against feat immune, but otherwise a pretty effective build.


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## Systole

tylermalan said:


> I, too, thought that the idea was to show that Rogues can't break the game, even when they try. Of course, in the context of the other thread, wouldn't it be better to give builds (for any class) that are unbelievably, extremely overpowered?





Your post implies that there's a desired outcome.  I don't think that's the case, at least for me.  I'm here because I'd like to give this an honest try, whichever way it turns out.  That said, I'm pretty sure that even the most broken rogue build is going to struggle in the DPR Olympics ... but I'm perfectly fine being wrong.

I'll download some DPR spreadsheets later tonight and give my Scout/Swashbuckler a try.  I think I'll name him Pokey McRunsalot.


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## Bacris

Systole said:


> Your post implies that there's a desired outcome.  I don't think that's the case, at least for me.  I'm here because I'd like to give this an honest try, whichever way it turns out.  That said, I'm pretty sure that even the most broken rogue build is going to struggle in the DPR Olympics ... but I'm perfectly fine being wrong.
> 
> I'll download some DPR spreadsheets later tonight and give my Scout/Swashbuckler a try.  I think I'll name him Pokey McRunsalot.




Well, now, we have some level-setting to do here.

I never said "broken DPR" - I said imbalance.  Imbalance doesn't mean high damage throughput.


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## Systole

Bacris said:


> Well, now, we have some level-setting to do here.
> 
> I never said "broken DPR" - I said imbalance. Imbalance doesn't mean high damage throughput.




Well, it _can_, but your point is taken.  Broken to me usually means extra high DPR, but it can also mean ridiculous, unbeatable lockdowns.  Or one-hit kills with unreachable saving throws.


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## Bacris

Exactly.

Unavoidable combinations / ridiculous DCs / etc...


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## joah_from_Alberta

I wish the rogue hadn't inherited the title of walking corpse in 3.5  

I wish the rogue was more bouncy like spider-man or upbeat like deadpool.  

We play with a sophisticated level of organizations using genetic algorithms to determine the sandbox developments of our campaign societies (and modules).  The program uses rogues extensively as a network agent to determine the best pathways to subjugate other organizations.  They are also employed by the party as agents to scout target organizations prior to setting out.  Depending on the amount of gold given and organizational factors between involved factions, the amount of reconnaissance can mean life or death to the adventurer.  

On certain adventures it is necessary to set up a perimeter of rogues around the module to create a buffer against other organizational incursion.  Nothing like trying to raid a manor and having another party stomping in after you (how embarrassing).  Also, paying an organization to have a rogue stand-by (fingers crossed) is crucial for requesting outside assistance should a door need opening or a character need cure whatever.  

In our game we have determined the rogue to be more beneficial as a passive character.

Cheers,


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## prototype00

Bacris said:


> Human Rogue (Scout, Thug)
> 
> Feats:
> 1st: Weapon Finesse
> Human Bonus: Sap Adept
> 3rd: Knockout Artist
> 5th: Sap Mastery
> 
> Rogue Talents:
> 2nd: Ninja Trick (Unarmed Combat Training)
> 4th: Combat Trick (Enforcer)
> 
> So at 5th level, whenever you charge someone, they are flatfooted (thanks to scout). Since they are flat footed, you deal double nonlethal sneak attack damage (6d6, thanks to sap mastery).
> 
> Since you were using your pimp-hand to deal the damage, you deal 1.5 times your level in extra damage due to sap adept and knockout artist. (In this case at level 5, 9 extra damage)
> 
> Now Enforcer comes into play, you can intimidate your foe as a free action, because you dealth nonlethal damage (Hope you didn't dump cha). If you succeed, they are shaken for a number of rounds based on the damage you just did (6d6 + 9 minimum), so lets say, forever, basically.
> Thats -2 to attacks, skills, saves.
> 
> ...Or you could switch all those rounds of shaken for one round of frightend (via the thug archetype) where:
> 
> Quote:
> A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.
> 
> Frightened is like shaken, except that the creature must flee if possible. Panicked is a more extreme state of fear.
> 
> Which is basically taking any enemy out of the fight for one round, guarunteed and best part is, no save. And since the target for intimidate is static (10 + HD + wis mod), boost it enough (I recommend a cane that gives you an enhancement bonus to intimidate) and you don't have to worry about the enemy making a lucky roll.
> 
> That's at 5th level, will expand to 10th.




Oh, hey, it's my Da Pimp Sap Mastery build! Nice to see that it's being put forth as an example rogue build. 

prototype00

Edit: Just re-read the thread title, is the consensus that this build is imbalanced? (Sad face.)


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## joah_from_Alberta

Nah, people where just trying to prove a point about that which cannot be named (for a week right 

Cheers,


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## StreamOfTheSky

No, nothing that has been posted so far is imbalanced at all.  Which proves a point itself...


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## Bacris

To be perfectly honest, I haven't put any time in it since the initial post, as I've been working on psionic projects.  That being said, if the rogue is the ONLY class that can't introduce game imbalance, then I stand by my statement that VIRTUALLY any class can do it.    I didn't say EVERY class.


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