# Paladin and Lay on Hands.



## Wisdom Penalty (Jun 10, 2008)

I'm sure this has probably been asked, but I can't find the answer.

Can a paladin use his Lay on Hands ability on himself?

Wis


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## Surgoshan (Jun 10, 2008)

It says "one creature" rather than "one ally", so yes.


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## mattdm (Jun 10, 2008)

Wisdom Penalty said:
			
		

> I'm sure this has probably been asked, but I can't find the answer.
> 
> Can a paladin use his Lay on Hands ability on himself?




Says target is "one creature", not "one other creature", so it seems like it, yeah.


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## Iku Rex (Jun 10, 2008)

I'll copy my post from the Core Handbook Errors thread. It should help explain why it's a valid question.

***

I'm confused by the paladin's lay on hands ability. It may need errata.

_Target: One creature
Effect: You spend a healing surge but regain no hit points. Instead, the target regains hit points as if it had spent a healing surge. You must have at least one healing surge remaining to use this power._ (PHB 91)

What is a valid target for this power? 

_“Creature” or “creatures” means allies and enemies both, as well as you. _(PHB 57)

So far so good. The target is one creature, you are one creature, you can target yourself. Simple.

The intent is not so clear. You regain no hit points from spending a healing surge, and then you gain hit points as if you had spent a healing surge. Wait, what? 

The fluff description says that a paladin can _"grant their comrades additional resilience with a touch of their hands and a short prayer"_. No mention of using the ability on yourself.

The Healing Hands feat says that when you_ "use the lay on hands power, the affected ally regains additional hit points equal to your Charisma modifier"_. "Ally" doesn't include yourself in 4.0 so if you can target yourself with lay on hands this is an oddly worded feat.

And some powers, like the cleric's Cure Light Wounds or the wizard's Jump have_ "Target: You or one creature"_, which is unnecessary if "One creature" includes yourself.


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## Blackbrrd (Jun 10, 2008)

My logic is as that "Target: one creature" part of the power is quite clear while the rest is ambiguous. Fluff text never trumps anything, it is often a bit misleading. I will therefore allow a paladin to heal himself.

I bet there will be errata for either lay on hands or healing hands, because they contradict each other to a certain degree. (as it is now you don't get the benefit from healing hands if you use lay on hands on yourself)

That jump or cure light wounds says "Target you or one creature" is probably just bad editing.


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## Ander00 (Jun 10, 2008)

I'd say it works, but the bonus from Healing Hands only applies if he uses the ability on an ally.


cheers


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## Sitara (Jun 10, 2008)

Both would work. Its pretty obvious, the rest is probably just bad editing.

Speaking of which a Dragonborn Paladin (the race is built for this class, its soobvious) is hard as heck to take down dcompared to tehother party members. I mean, being a dragonborn his surges grant 1/4hp + con mod; add to that the healing hands feat for another con mod to healing and then give him decent wis for wis mod to healing.

Wcked!

Paladins got the most love in this edition I have to say. plus, the paladin art is just gorgeous. (like the samurai influence)


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## Blackbrrd (Jun 10, 2008)

I don't quite see how Dragonborn are "made" to be paladins. Half the powers are str based, the other half are cha based. You don't need both stats high. Keeping both cha and str high will make your other stats suffer, and you need wis for # lay on hands per day, con for hp and healing surges, dex or int for reflex defense.

Personally I think the the half-elf and halfling both make great paladins. (dump stating int/str).


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## Iku Rex (Jun 10, 2008)

Cha is really useful for some powers. Str is needed to wear plate and it also improves your pure damage powers. You want both. Then you need Con for plate armor and healing surges, and Wis for damage and lay on hands. 

(My first test character for 4.0 was a dwarven paladin with a focus on defense and self-healing.)


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## SweeneyTodd (Jun 10, 2008)

Iku Rex said:
			
		

> The intent is not so clear. You regain no hit points from spending a healing surge, and then you gain hit points as if you had spent a healing surge. Wait, what?




I believe it's worded that (kind awkward) way because you are regaining the HP from the *effect *of Lay on Hands, not from the *cost *of casting it. For example, the way it's worded, if you use Lay on Hands on yourself, you could still use Second Wind the next round. 

I absolutely agree it could have used rewording.


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## Surgoshan (Jun 10, 2008)

Iku Rex said:
			
		

> Cha is really useful for some powers. Str is needed to wear plate and it also improves your pure damage powers. You want both. Then you need Con for plate armor and healing surges, and Wis for damage and lay on hands.




Paladins get proficiency in plate armor for free; they don't need to meet the str and con requirements for the armor proficiency feat.

They need them to fill their role as a defender, of course, just not to wear the armor.


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## baberg (Jun 11, 2008)

Iku Rex said:
			
		

> _Target: One creature
> Effect: You spend a healing surge but regain no hit points. Instead, the target regains hit points as if it had spent a healing surge. You must have at least one healing surge remaining to use this power._ (PHB 91)



I see no problem with how it's worded, personally.  But then again I'm used to reading things that are not very descriptive.  I look at it as being two effects with one conditional statement

You must have at least one healing surge to use this power (conditional)
You spend a healing surge but regain no hit points. (effect)
- Ok, as long as I have a surge left, I reduce my number of healing surges by one.

The target regains hit points as if it had spent a healing surge. (effect)
- Ok, I'm the target, so I therefore gain hit points as if I had spent a healing surge.

Fluff arguments don't sway me, so yes, you can use Lay on Hands on yourself.  And I'd allow the _Healing Hands_ feat to add +CHA even when used on themselves, mostly because I think it's just incorrectly worded in the PHB.  But as written, no, the +CHA wouldn't affect a LoH on yourself.


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## Iku Rex (Jun 11, 2008)

Surgoshan said:
			
		

> Paladins get proficiency in plate armor for free; they don't need to meet the str and con requirements for the armor proficiency feat.



(The FAQ agrees with you. I started a separate thread for the topic. http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=230433 )


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## Eldorian (Jul 3, 2008)

Hey, revisiting this thread because I saw something mentioned earlier in another thread.

Any official word on this?  The lay on hands power's range is melee touch, and I couldn't find anywhere on the melee touch range that includes self.  But now that I read the "creature" entry I'm beginning to change my mind.


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## Henry (Jul 3, 2008)

Eldorian said:


> Any official word on this?  The lay on hands power's range is melee touch, and I couldn't find anywhere on the melee touch range that includes self.  But now that I read the "creature" entry I'm beginning to change my mind.




To me, this is one of those "common sense" rulings. Even beyond the definition of "one creature", You can touch yourself with a lay on hands, because that's the way it's been ever since there WAS a lay on hands.


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## Eldorian (Jul 3, 2008)

Henry said:


> To me, this is one of those "common sense" rulings. Even beyond the definition of "one creature", You can touch yourself with a lay on hands, because that's the way it's been ever since there WAS a lay on hands.




Yeah, initially I thought, of course, you can target yourself.  But then I read the fluff text, the effect text, and the range, and the target, and thought.. hmm... maybe they changed things.  Previous editions explicitly stated that "touch" range spells work on the caster.  This edition includes "self" when the power is usable on the self, and has powers that only work on allies, which wasn't something I'm familiar with from previous editions.  Usable on self, this power rocks.


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## Switchback (Jul 3, 2008)

It's pretty clear under the Target rules on page 57, that 'One Creature' means "allies and enemies both as well as you" as stated. 

It makes a special note that "allies or ally" would not mean you, and as this was *not* the wording used for Lay on Hands, you can use it on yourself.


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## Lurker37 (Jul 3, 2008)

Eldorian said:


> Hey, revisiting this thread because I saw something mentioned earlier in another thread.
> 
> Any official word on this?  The lay on hands power's range is melee touch, and I couldn't find anywhere on the melee touch range that includes self.  But now that I read the "creature" entry I'm beginning to change my mind.




http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin...nNlYXJjaF9ubCZwX3BhZ2U9MQ**&p_li=&p_topview=1



> 9. Can a Paladin gain healing from his own lay on hands ability?
> 
> Yes he can.




That official enough?


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## Eldorian (Jul 3, 2008)

Lurker37 said:


> http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin...nNlYXJjaF9ubCZwX3BhZ2U9MQ**&p_li=&p_topview=1
> 
> 
> 
> That official enough?





Thanks much!  That document keeps changing and is hard to find on wizard's site.


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## Danceofmasks (Jul 3, 2008)

I just bookmark the main D&D updates page.
http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/updates


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