# Wall of Force question



## ChromWolf (Apr 2, 2009)

We'd come across a red dragon (I can't be sure what age category, but it was size Huge), and I play the party wizard.  I'd had a Wall of Force prepared.  My thought was that if I cast the Wall of Force around the dragon, it would crash into the wall and fall to the ground since its flight maneuverability is "Poor", IIRC.  My caster level is 16, so I figured I could only encircle 4 of the 6 sides of the dragon (in other words, to form a giant cube around it, except the top and bottom sides would be open).  At best, it would only delay the dragon for a round, but I was hoping that would serve its purpose all the same.

However, the DM ruled that the spell did not have the "(S)" in its spell entry, and the only things it says is more or less "one 10-foot square of wall per caster level".  My DM ruled that I had to create an absolutely flat, vertical wall (i.e. no turns, just a flat plane).  Is he correct in this ruling, or can Wall of Force be created such that it would encircle a size-huge red dragon on all four sides, given 4 sides x 4 (10-foot) squares = 16 (10-foot) squares per level?

After having the "encircle the dragon" tactic shot down, I tried just placing the wall immediately in front of the dragon to result in the same effect:  Dragon (with its not-so-great Maneuverability) crashes into wall, and falls to the ground.  The DM felt he should get a reflex save just as with Wall of Stone, but of course Wall of Force has no Save and no SR--which is precisely the reason I selected it.  He gave up on that avenue and went with another....

He ruled that I could only create the wall so that it touched the ground, but the dragon was 30 feet up in the air.  ...The rules don't say anything at all about requiring the wall to be based on the ground (especially since it has no mass, and cannot be moved), one way or another.

At this point I was pretty frustrated; it felt like my creative tactics were getting shot down in favor of the dragon getting to fly around over us at the DM's will.  Since we'd already spent a half hour scouring books, and I could tell the rest of the players were about as annoyed as I was frustrated, I gave up and just switched to my handy-dandy Wand of Lesser Orb of Cold.....

How should this have gone down, from a "RAW" standpoint?  ...I suppose I can see the DM's side of things on the first point, since there's no "Shapable" denotation in the spell's description, but what about the rest?


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## Thatwackyned (Apr 2, 2009)

*Wall of Force*

Evocation [Force] 
*Level:* Sor/Wiz 5 
*Components:* V, S, M 
*Casting Time:* 1 standard action 
*Range:* Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) 
*Effect: *Wall whose area is up to one 10-ft. square/level 
*Duration:* 1 round /level (D) 
*Saving Throw:* None 
*Spell Resistance:* No 
A _wall of force _spell creates an invisible wall of force. The wall cannot move, it is immune to damage of all kinds, and it is unaffected by most spells, including _dispel magic_. However, _disintegrate _immediately destroys it, as does a _rod of cancellation_, a _sphere of annihilation, _or a _mage's disjunction _spell. Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through the wall in either direction, although _dimension door, teleport, _and similar effects can bypass the barrier. It blocks ethereal creatures as well as material ones (though ethereal creatures can usually get around the wall by floating under or over it through material floors and ceilings). Gaze attacks can operate through a _wall of force_. 
The caster can form the wall into a flat, vertical plane whose area is up to one 10- foot square per level. *The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed*. If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails. 
_Wall of force _can be made permanent with a _permanency _spell. _Material Component: _A pinch of powder made from a clear gem.


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## Theo R Cwithin (Apr 2, 2009)

Yeah, by RAW the Wall of Force must be flat and vertical... though it doesn't say anything about being supported by something (as a Wall of Stone must be merged with stone).  Though, if you're casting a spell of this level, you must be 9th or 10th level, at least - which means you could make a 10' wide x 90' high Wall (for example).  And the if the dragon's only 30' up....

Maybe the dragon should have been allowed a Spot check (DC 40 to spot an invisible inanimate object) to see the wall and avoid?  Not sure,


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## Abciximab (Apr 2, 2009)

the_orc_within said:


> Yeah, by RAW the Wall of Force must be flat and vertical... though it doesn't say anything about being supported by something (as a Wall of Stone must be merged with stone).  Though, if you're casting a spell of this level, you must be 9th or 10th level, at least - which means you could make a 10' wide x 90' high Wall (for example).  And the if the dragon's only 30' up....
> 
> Maybe the dragon should have been allowed a Spot check (DC 40 to spot an invisible inanimate object) to see the wall and avoid?  Not sure,




Yeah, wall of force and wall of fire don't say they need to be supported and they're both evocation (as opposed to conjuration which states it cannot appear floating in an empty space.) I have always ruled they need to be on the ground though. The DC 40 spot check seems reasonable.


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## billd91 (Apr 2, 2009)

the_orc_within said:


> Yeah, by RAW the Wall of Force must be flat and vertical... though it doesn't say anything about being supported by something (as a Wall of Stone must be merged with stone).  Though, if you're casting a spell of this level, you must be 9th or 10th level, at least - which means you could make a 10' wide x 90' high Wall (for example).  And the if the dragon's only 30' up....
> 
> Maybe the dragon should have been allowed a Spot check (DC 40 to spot an invisible inanimate object) to see the wall and avoid?  Not sure,




All seems pretty reasonable to me. For a typical huge red dragon, ranging from about 19 to 25 hit dice, the Spot check would range from fairly difficult to fairly easy. If he spots it, I'd look at his maneuverability, speed, and figure out if he could turn enough to avoid hitting it or not. Figure he may also have Wingover, which means, that if he spots the wall, it's actually easy to avoid.
Had the dragon missed the spot check, I'd have had him run smack into the wall and take some nominal damage (just a few d6s based on the collision and fall). It wouldn't be much, but it would be enough to get him out of the air for the time being.


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## ElectricDragon (Apr 2, 2009)

I agree with your DM on the first part as the spell has no (S) and it says:

The caster can form the wall into a flat, vertical plane...

Seemingly, this is your only option.

As to the second, the only thing I can find in the spell that even suggests that the spell has to be at ground level is this:

(though ethereal creatures can usually get around the wall by floating under or over it through material floors and ceilings)

It doesn't exactly say "must be created on the ground"; and even though this sentence suggests it, I would not make casters stretch the wall from floor to ceiling because it would stop non-ethereal creatures (without some other way than mundane movement).

I say, hovering invisible walls would be okay. Other than a little damage (comparatively) and an embarassing pratfall; the dragon should be fine. It had to be flying at least at half speed (75 ft.) and would have fallen 30 ft. for a total of 7d6 crashing damage and 3d6 falling damage, which is pretty skimpy for a 5th level spell until you factor in the "not flying anymore" thingy.

Ciao,
Dave


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## frankthedm (Apr 2, 2009)

You placed the wall of force on your own turn I'm guessing? IMHO it will take a readied action while the victim is running to get someone to slam into a barrier they can percieve.

Dragon has blindsense and thus when it takes its turn, it knows the wall is there.

If dragon has the Hover or Wingover feats, it can use one of those. Indeed I suspect dragons were given those insane fly speeds so they can hover as a default tactic. 

If the dragon did not have  Hover or Wingover then it would have to land at the end of it's turn or fall. If it was _really_ high up it would get a reflex save to stop the fall part way down

Wall of force does not need an anchor. 



> but of course Wall of Force has no Save and no SR--which is precisely the reason I selected it



Wall of force does not give a save because it can't be used to trap someone. If you try using it to have a victim slam into it, how that will work is up to the DM.


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## Abciximab (Apr 3, 2009)

frankthedm said:


> Wall of force does not need an anchor.




So you're saying wall of force and wall of fire (I add this can because the description is similar) can be cast in midair? Is this because it is not expressly stated in the spell description or is there some other source for this ruling?


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## Jack Simth (Apr 3, 2009)

Abciximab said:


> So you're saying wall of force and wall of fire (I add this can because the description is similar) can be cast in midair? Is this because it is not expressly stated in the spell description or is there some other source for this ruling?




Well...

The description of the Conjuration school includes the line: 







			
				SRD said:
			
		

> A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range.




The entire description of Evocation in that same section of the SRD is:


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Evocation spells manipulate energy or tap an unseen source of power to produce a desired end. In effect, they create something out of nothing. Many of these spells produce spectacular effects, and evocation spells can deal large amounts of damage.



.

The school of Conjuration is specifically restricted to putting things where they are supported; Evocation isn't.  

If you get into individual spells, Wall of Iron and Wall of Stone obviously inherit from the school description; Wall of Ice specifies it must be "anchored", Wall of Fire doesn't specify, Wall of Force doesn't specify, and Prismatic Wall doesn't specify either (which is an Abjuration, but ignoring that...).

For the specific spell in question, it isn't specified; surrounding text suggests that Wall of Force doesn't have the same limitations as Wall of Iron or Wall of Stone, but that is far from explicit, so technically it's a DM call.  Of course, Fireball doesn't specify it can be placed in a 3-d location, completely unanchored, either.  Would you prevent someone from detonating one fifty feet in the air?


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## Abciximab (Apr 3, 2009)

Yeah, I looked at invocation vs conjuration and couldn't come up with a good answer. I would certainly allow a fireball to go off fifty feet up, but its instantaneous. 



> technically it's a DM call




This is what I was thinking but I was hoping for a clear indication one way or the other. I don't see any problems with a wall of fire/wall of force in mid air. Kind of a cool effect and only limited usefulness. 

As an aside, I wonder why I keep forgetting dragons have Blindsense. Everytime I read it/hear about it I smack my forehead. (At least 3 times so far). Perhaps it's because it's one of those generic dragon abilities at the beginning of the dragon descriptive text. Good thing my players never use invisibility (Oh, maybe that's why I never remember it).


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## Thatwackyned (Apr 3, 2009)

*Blindsense (Ex):* Using nonvisual senses, such as acute smell or hearing, a creature with blindsense notices things it cannot see. The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks *to pinpoint the location of a creature* within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature.
Any opponent the creature cannot see still has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks *from creatures it cannot see*

The Feat clearly states Creatures, not objects.  IMHO, a wall of force is not a creature.  Therefore the Dragon could not use Blindsense to discover the wall, and would need a spot check of 40+Hide check (but this is for creatures, according to RAW you can't detect invisible objects with a Spot check).  So all in all, the Dragon has no option other than smashing into the Wall of Force.  The only way the Dragon has to avoid the Wall of Force is Detect Magic.


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## Abciximab (Apr 3, 2009)

Blindsense (Ex): Using nonvisual senses, such as acute smell or hearing, *a creature with blindsense notices things it cannot see.* The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to pinpoint the location of a creature within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature.

It specifies things, not creatures, then goes on to explain detecting creatures.


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## Thatwackyned (Apr 3, 2009)

Blindsense (Ex): *Using nonvisual senses, such as acute smell or hearing*, a creature with blindsense notices things it cannot see. The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to pinpoint the location of a creature within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature.

But it states that the creature uses it's *acute smell or hearing *to detect the things it cannot see.  Can you smell a Wall of Force or hear it.  A wall of force by anyother name would smell as sweet?  So what sense are you using to detect an invisible wall?  Sight, no.  Smell, no.  Hearing, no.  Taste, maybe.  Touch, yes (by crashing into it).


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## Abciximab (Apr 3, 2009)

Thatwackyned said:


> Blindsense (Ex): *Using nonvisual senses, such as acute smell or hearing*, a creature with blindsense notices things it cannot see. The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to pinpoint the location of a creature within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature.
> 
> But it states that the creature uses it's *acute smell or hearing *to detect the things it cannot see.  Can you smell a Wall of Force or hear it.  A wall of force by anyother name would smell as sweet?  So what sense are you using to detect an invisible wall?  Sight, no.  Smell, no.  Hearing, no.  Taste, maybe.  Touch, yes (by crashing into it).




Hmmm... Let me see if I can come up with something... Uh... Radar?
All right, I'll have to give you that one. 
Though I do find that sometimes a wall of force in the wrong place can really stink.


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## SolitonMan (Apr 3, 2009)

Abciximab said:


> Hmmm... Let me see if I can come up with something... Uh... Radar?
> All right, I'll have to give you that one.
> Though I do find that sometimes a wall of force in the wrong place can really stink.




Actually the definition of blindsense references acute smell and hearing as examples of the types of nonvisual senses which make blindsense possible.  It doesn't say "only", it says "such as".  Bats using echolocation would avoid a wall of force, and I'd rule that dragons flying towards a wall of force in midair would automatically detect it once it was in range of their blindsense, and wouldn't worry about the semantics of how the blindsense worked.

That is, if the dragon was flying towards the area of the wall.  What do you think would happen if the wall was edgewise towards the dragon?  Could you just slice it right in half?


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## Abciximab (Apr 3, 2009)

SolitonMan said:


> Actually the definition of blindsense references acute smell and hearing as examples of the types of nonvisual senses which make blindsense possible.  It doesn't say "only", it says "such as".  Bats using echolocation would avoid a wall of force, and I'd rule that dragons flying towards a wall of force in midair would automatically detect it once it was in range of their blindsense, and wouldn't worry about the semantics of how the blindsense worked.




So, they're using the sixth sense! I knew it! 



> That is, if the dragon was flying towards the area of the wall.  What do you think would happen if the wall was edgewise towards the dragon?  Could you just slice it right in half?




Interesting question. So the mage readies an action to do this when the dragon moves, what happens?


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## Thatwackyned (Apr 3, 2009)

SolitonMan said:


> Bats using echolocation would avoid a wall of force, and I'd rule that dragons flying towards a wall of force in midair would automatically detect it once it was in range of their blindsense, and wouldn't worry about the semantics of how the blindsense worked.




I agree with you fully that echolocation would work fine.  Good call.  But Blindsense doesn't give echolocation, and so the Dragon is stuck with the 5 senses.  But as a DM, it's your call.  I'ld reward the players for coming up with such a good idea, if i was DMing.


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## ChromWolf (Apr 3, 2009)

Thatwackyned said:


> ..... *The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed.* If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails.




What exactly does that mean, though?  Apart from the lack of (S) in the spell description, couldn't just looking at this sentence alone imply there's no reason I couldn't make an entirely vertical wall surface---even if one part of the surface is perpendicular to another?  Again, this is a bit of a moot point sans (S), but still...

To me, it implies that---from a conceptual standpoint---I've got multiple (in my case, 16, having that caster level) 10x10 "pieces of wall" to place--the only restrictions on them are that they all have to connect to another piece of wall, that they must be vertical (as listed in another part of the spell's description), and that I can't have anything piercing through the area of the wall when it's cast.  I can live with that, and at least as I see it, I stuck to that in the original intent of stopping the dragon.



the_orc_within said:


> Maybe the dragon should have been allowed a Spot check (DC 40 to spot an invisible inanimate object) to see the wall and avoid?  Not sure,




I can live with that.



billd91 said:


> ...If he spots it, I'd look at his maneuverability, speed, and figure out if he could turn enough to avoid hitting it or not. Figure he may also have Wingover, which means, that if he spots the wall, it's actually easy to avoid.
> Had the dragon missed the spot check, I'd have had him run smack into the wall and take some nominal damage (just a few d6s based on the collision and fall). It wouldn't be much, but it would be enough to get him out of the air for the time being.




I'd certainly not have a problem with the dragon taking a minor amount of damage akin to fall damage, but see next quote...



frankthedm said:


> You placed the wall of force on your own turn I'm guessing? IMHO it will take a readied action while the victim is running to get someone to slam into a barrier they can percieve.




Therein lies the question as to whether the dragon can spot the wall.    If he fails the check, it's a barrier it *cannot* percieve, and would therefore slam into it.

That said, I was indeed casting the spell on my own turn (specifically, I'd held my action until after the dragon had gone), so I'm cool with him not necessarily crashing into the wall and taking any damage.  The intent was therefore to create the wall pretty much directly in front of the dragon, making it difficult to avoid the surface; not necessarily to cause it harm, but to impede it from carrying out its minimum movement to continue to fly based on maneuverability.



frankthedm said:


> Dragon has blindsense and thus when it takes its turn, it knows the wall is there......




I go along with that.  Again, knowing the wall is there only really matters if the dragon can avoid it....



frankthedm said:


> ..... If dragon has the Hover or Wingover feats, it can use one of those. Indeed I suspect dragons were given those insane fly speeds so they can hover as a default tactic.
> 
> If the dragon did not have  Hover or Wingover then it would have to land at the end of it's turn or fall. If it was _really_ high up it would get a reflex save to stop the fall part way down
> 
> ...




A dragon of Huge size has Poor Maneuverability, and that means a minumum of half movement speed during flight to stay aloft. It has to move in a 45 degree angle to go up or down, and turning a 45 degree angle requires 5 feet of movement. As the wall was to be directly in front of the dragon, it's not inherently the wall that stops the dragon; it's the dragon's maneuverability rating. A beholder of will-o-wisp, the two example creatures for Good and Perfect maneuverability, would simply need to expend more movement to go around the wall, or a Gargoyle with Average manueverability could just turn in place at a loss of 5 or 10 feet of movement, no biggie. Flight feats such as Wingover and Hover could indeed change this, but it was a chance I wanted to take.

To boil it all down:  It sounds as though the Dragon would have done one of two things:

(A)  Used Hover and/or Wingover, not crashed into the wall because it would have likely detected it, and just had to fly around/over/under it, or....

(B) Cursed its feat list, crashed (I'd say lightly, you might almost say "bumped into" instead) into the wall, counted all the rules dealing with falling 30 feet, and have been brought to the ground, even for a short time (which, in effect, was really all I was shooting for in the first place once I'd determined that I couldn't shape the effect).

Is that more or less correct?


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## Thatwackyned (Apr 3, 2009)

ChromWolf said:


> What exactly does that mean, though? Apart from the lack of (S) in the spell description, couldn't just looking at this sentence alone imply there's no reason I couldn't make an entirely vertical wall surface---even if one part of the surface is perpendicular to another? Again, this is a bit of a moot point sans (S), but still...
> 
> To me, it implies that---from a conceptual standpoint---I've got multiple (in my case, 16, having that caster level) 10x10 "pieces of wall" to place--the only restrictions on them are that they all have to connect to another piece of wall, that they must be vertical (as listed in another part of the spell's description), and that I can't have anything piercing through the area of the wall when it's cast. I can live with that, and at least as I see it, I stuck to that in the original intent of stopping the dragon.




The caster can form the wall into a flat, *vertical plane* whose area is up to one 10- foot square per level. The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed. If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails. 

In mathematics, a *plane* is a flat surface. Planes can arise as subspaces of some higher dimensional space, as with the walls of a room, or they may enjoy an independent existence in their own right, as in the setting of Euclidean geometry.


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## ElectricDragon (Apr 4, 2009)

Wingover does require 10 feet of space to perform. If the wall was within 5 ft. only Hover could allow it to not crash into it. And I say crash, minimum movement of 75 ft. and only 5 ft. to move means crash. I would rule that equivalent to falling for 70 ft. (the minimum it needs to stay aloft) or 7d6 and then falling for another 3d6. It would need to be more than 150 ft. high to recover from a fall in mid-air.

So, Frank, someone running past you (and through your threatened area) could not be tripped as an attack of opportunity? You would have to ready an action to do it? Even though their AC is penalized for running?

Ciao,
Dave


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## ElectricDragon (Apr 4, 2009)

Without Wingover or Hover, the dragon could only turn 45 degrees after 5 ft. of movement (his only allowed turn that round at poor maneuverability), then slam into the fixed wall. I would allow him to lessen the crash damage by half with this turn. Spot, Listen, Blindsense, even Blindsight won't help, not enough space to make them useful. SR is also useless against this spell, but I would allow a Ref save against the DC of the spell to turn and reduce crash damage by half (or probably just give that to him, his Intelligence should be high enough to want to avoid crashing headlong into a wall).

Under Hover, there is an entry called: Normal, wherein it says: Without this feat, a creature *must keep moving while flying* unless it has perfect maneuverability.

Ciao,
Dave


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## Jack Simth (Apr 4, 2009)

ElectricDragon said:


> Under Hover, there is an entry called: Normal, wherein it says: Without this feat, a creature *must keep moving while flying* unless it has perfect maneuverability.
> 
> Ciao,
> Dave



Yeah, the Normal line of Hover isn't quite the primary for maneuvering while flying.  For that, you want to go Here, where it's quite clear that someone with merely Good maneuverability can also hover.


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## Nail (Apr 4, 2009)

#1) Wall of Force can't be used to make a cube; that's clear enough.  So no "trapping" the dragon.

#2) The Wall of Force doesn't need to be supported.  It's an evocation spell, and the wall "cannot move", meaning it stays were put - even up in the air.

#3) The dragon can notice invisible objects without a check: that's what blind sense is for.  So no need for a Spot check.

#4) The dragon (might-hover feat?) need to move a minimum distance to stay in the air, and if the wall is right in front of him, he (probably-impr. flight feat?) can't turn, and so the dragon falls.  Much depends on what Red Dragon was used, and how the dragon was stated.  I know that often there are mistakes in published monster stat blocks, and dragons are some of the toughest monsters in 3.5e to stat up.


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## Thatwackyned (Apr 6, 2009)

> #3) The dragon can notice invisible objects without a check: that's what blind sense is for. So no need for a Spot check




Blindsense requires the user to still use a sense, and no one has stated what sense the Dragon is using to detect the wall. 
So again, 


> what sense are you using to detect an invisible wall? Sight, no. Smell, no. Hearing, no. Taste, maybe. Touch, yes (by crashing into it).




Detect Invisiblity will allow you to detect invisible objects.


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## Jhaelen (Apr 6, 2009)

Thatwackyned said:


> Blindsense requires the user to still use a sense, and no one has stated what sense the Dragon is using to detect the wall.



Well, it could basically be *any* sense and will probably be the sum of clues gained by applying all senses. Here's some examples:

It could be sight: the dragon beats its wings and causes dust to stir, making a faint outline visible.

It could be sound: the dragon notices that the acustic properties of the space have changed, e.g. echoes are less (or more) pronounced.

It could be smell: closing off part of the area might change or stop an air current carrying a particular fragrance.

Etc.

Have you ever asked a blind person how they manage to avoid obstacles? 
You don't need to be a bat to detect a wall by sound.


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## ElectricDragon (Apr 9, 2009)

Jack Simth said:
			
		

> someone with merely Good maneuverability can also hover.




What core dragon has Good maneuverability? For dragons, it takes a feat to hover.

Blindsense has nothing to do with it. There is no space for the dragon to do anything but hover. It needs to move 5 feet before it can turn 45 degrees and that is the only turn it can make in one round with a maneuverability of poor. Wingover lets it turn 180 degrees but only with 10 feet of space. The wall was immediately in front of the dragon. No space to turn, no space to wingover, no space to do anything. Even if it sees or senses the wall, it can do nothing about it, 5 feet of space when you are moving 75 feet every 6 seconds or 12.5 feet per second is not enough space for reaction time.

Frank: if a dragon is running and the mage on his turn fireballs him; does the mage have to ready an action to fireball the dragon? Running is not a reason for readying an action.

Ciao,
Dave


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## dingle (Apr 9, 2009)

I agree with Thatwackyned.
I don't think the dragon could use Blindsence to see the wall of force. The wall will not be making any noise, or smell for the dragon to detect. I think I would have the dragon hit the wall of Force unless it had a detect magic running. I'ts also quite funny.


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## Jack Simth (Apr 9, 2009)

ElectricDragon said:


> What core dragon has Good maneuverability? For dragons, it takes a feat to hover.



The one that cast Fly prior to taking flight?


ElectricDragon said:


> Blindsense has nothing to do with it. There is no space for the dragon to do anything but hover. It needs to move 5 feet before it can turn 45 degrees and that is the only turn it can make in one round with a maneuverability of poor. Wingover lets it turn 180 degrees but only with 10 feet of space.



Correction: Wingover "Consumes ten feet of flying movement" - it does not require ten feet of space.


ElectricDragon said:


> The wall was immediately in front of the dragon. No space to turn, no space to wingover, no space to do anything. Even if it sees or senses the wall, it can do nothing about it, 5 feet of space when you are moving 75 feet every 6 seconds or 12.5 feet per second is not enough space for reaction time.



That depends on your reaction time, now doesn't it?  5 feet of space at a rate of 12.5 feet per second works out to 0.4 seconds warning.  There are humans who can react in that window.  Why not a dragon?


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## Jhaelen (Apr 9, 2009)

dingle said:


> The wall will not be making any noise, or smell for the dragon to detect.



It doesn't have to. 

It will reflect sounds made by the dragon, the party, and anything else near it that DOES make any noise, thus it's perfectly detectable using hearing.


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## Kask (Apr 9, 2009)

Thatwackyned said:


> Detect Invisiblity will allow you to detect invisible objects.




That would help except, a wall of force isn't an object, no more than X-rays are an object.  Therefore, dragon doesn't know it's there until he smacks into it.  Roll damage as per rules and dragon falls...


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## dingle (Apr 12, 2009)

Jhaelen said:


> It doesn't have to.
> 
> It will reflect sounds made by the dragon, the party, and anything else near it that DOES make any noise, thus it's perfectly detectable using hearing.



 I think the question is Does a dragon have Sonar hearing like a bat. I would say not otherwise it would be probably be blind.
I doubt that the wall of force would give off that much of an echo as it is relativly small and only one plane. Its not like being in a tunnel where the sound has no where else to go.


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## Kask (Apr 12, 2009)

dingle said:


> I think the question is Does a dragon have Sonar hearing like a bat. I would say not otherwise it would be probably be blind.
> I doubt that the wall of force would give off that much of an echo as it is relativly small and only one plane. Its not like being in a tunnel where the sound has no where else to go.





And, where does it say that a wall of force reflects sound vibrations from the air?  That would mean it would have to vibrate as a result of the air vibrating.  Doubtful at best.


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## Jack Simth (Apr 12, 2009)

Kask said:


> And, where does it say that a wall of force reflects sound vibrations from the air?  That would mean it would have to vibrate as a result of the air vibrating.  Doubtful at best.




Thing is, though, it's not actually specified - anywhere - exactly how a dragon's blindsense works.  There is, however, a generic entry on Blindsense:



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Blindsense: Other creatures have blindsense, a lesser ability that lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.



 (Emphasis added)

Basically, the Dragon can tell there's a wall there, even if he can't see it.  Why?  Not specified.  Of course, the Wall of Force spell doesn't specify it's interactions with sound, or scent.  It's just called out as "invisible".  Unfortunately, almost all the arguments anyone has been making regarding a Dragon's Blindsense and a Wall of Force rely on things not specified in one or the other - how exactly a dragon's blindsense works, and how exactly a wall of force interacts with sound, scent, and such.


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## Thatwackyned (Apr 12, 2009)

Jack Simth said:


> Thing is, though, it's not actually specified - anywhere - exactly how a dragon's blindsense works. There is, however, a generic entry on Blindsense:
> 
> (Emphasis added)
> 
> Basically, the Dragon can tell there's a wall there, even if he can't see it. Why? Not specified. Of course, the Wall of Force spell doesn't specify it's interactions with sound, or scent. It's just called out as "invisible". Unfortunately, almost all the arguments anyone has been making regarding a Dragon's Blindsense and a Wall of Force rely on things not specified in one or the other - how exactly a dragon's blindsense works, and how exactly a wall of force interacts with sound, scent, and such.




But your reference refers to "The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature."  The opening of "lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight" means that it should not be able to know exactly where the wall is, general area, but not exactly.


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## Jack Simth (Apr 13, 2009)

Thatwackyned said:


> But your reference refers to "The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature."  The opening of "lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight" means that it should not be able to know exactly where the wall is, general area, but not exactly.




It still lets the Dragon know it needs to turn around suddenly because there's something in the way.  Maybe not well enough to target the Wall of Force with a Disintegrate, but well enough to know that it needs to turn.


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## Jhaelen (Apr 13, 2009)

dingle said:


> I think the question is Does a dragon have Sonar hearing like a bat. I would say not otherwise it would be probably be blind.
> I doubt that the wall of force would give off that much of an echo as it is relativly small and only one plane. Its not like being in a tunnel where the sound has no where else to go.



Actually that's not the question. As I mentioned above you don't need to be a bat to detect walls using sound. It's just a matter of training. It's how blind persons navigate around obstacles (to give a real world example).

Dragons having Blindsense represents extremely accurate senses, i.e. exactly like the (other) senses of a blind persons (or even better). I'm not sure the dragon should be able to detect it automatically, but a high enough spot/listen role should do the trick.


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## Kask (Apr 13, 2009)

Jack Simth said:


> Basically, the Dragon can tell there's a wall there, even if he can't see it.




A wall of force isn't a creature.  Try again.

Less snark, please. ~ PCat


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## Piratecat (Apr 13, 2009)

When the rules aren't exactly clear, I generally go with "what will be the most fun for the players?" I played in a game where we tricked a dragon into running into a wall of force, and we still talk about it years later. Even if it isn't optimal for the dragon, it seems like a heck of a lot of fun...

...but I'm not your GM. I can see it either way.

You can put a wall of force in the air, though.  It doesn't need to be supported. It does need to be flat.


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## hong (Apr 13, 2009)

The best experience I had with wall of force was in my Brit3E campaign some years back.

The PCs are at one end of a long hallway, with a group of fire giants at the other. The fire giant king bellows his war cry and charges, hefting his axe...

... and smacks head-first into the wall of force that the sorcerer put up.

So he gets up and yells at his shaman to bring the wall down. The shaman obliges, casting dispel magic. The giant king bellows his war cry and charges again...

... and smacks into the wall of force, because dispel magic doesn't work on WoF.

So he get up and screams even more at his hapless shaman to use the right bleepin' spell. The shaman pulls out a disintegrate scroll and zaps the wall. The giant king yells his war cry and charges for the third time, into the midst of the PCs. The other giants follow him...

... and smack into the wall of force that the sorc cast again.

The PCs proceeded to turn the king into chowder, then brought the wall down, and did the same to the other giants. It was the BEST FIGHT EVER.


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## dingle (Apr 13, 2009)

Jhaelen;4752297 It's just a matter of training. It's how blind persons navigate around obstacles (to give a real world example).
 
Dragons having Blindsense represents extremely accurate senses said:
			
		

> You are right that a blind person can detect odjects by sound (a clicking sound, a bit like a dolphin I suppose) and detecting the echo. If a dragon would know about this and be making any sound at the time, I don't know. So I suppose a high listen check would be OK. He could have spent 100 years in his cave perfecting it they live long enough after all.
> I still would have would have had him fly into the wall though, much more fun.


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## concerro (Apr 14, 2009)

dingle said:


> You are right that a blind person can detect odjects by sound (a clicking sound, a bit like a dolphin I suppose) and detecting the echo. If a dragon would know about this and be making any sound at the time, I don't know. So I suppose a high listen check would be OK. He could have spent 100 years in his cave perfecting it they live long enough after all.
> I still would have would have had him fly into the wall though, much more fun.




As far as the statement below goes blindsight lets you know exactly where someone or something is in a within a 5 foot-square as if you could see it. Blindsense lets you know what square(s) it is in, but not where the object/creature is within the square which is why if a creature with blindsense attacks an invisible creature it still has a miss chance. All the dragon has to know is which squares to avoid so it can turn around, assuming it has the ability to do so.



> The opening of "lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight" means that it should not be able to know exactly where the wall is, general area, but not exactly.


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## Deset Gled (Apr 14, 2009)

Thatwackyned said:


> Blindsense requires the user to still use a sense, and no one has stated what sense the Dragon is using to detect the wall.




Actually, (the_orc_within touched on this earlier) regular vision can detect an invisible object.  It's in the SRD in the epic section: Spot  So even if you're going to say that Blindsense can only act as a magnification of other senses, spotting something invisible is still possible using only vision.  Another fun tidbit of WoF fun is that you can actually pass through one with an Escape Artist DC of 120.

Now, I imagine the next thing you're going to point out is that WoF isn't an object.  It's an effect.  However, the spell descrition specifically states that it is an invisible wall, so I would treat it the same way that I would a regular, invisible wall.  YMMV.


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## aboyd (Apr 14, 2009)

I think there is a lot of work happening in this thread to try to find ways to foil the players.  Why?  Why so driven to have the dragon on rails?  Maybe the DM forgot that letting the players have a hilarious, awesome moment is more important?

A very good moment in a game I participated in came when we had been dungeon-crawling for too long, and we were out of spells.  Well, except one.  I had a Stone Shape spell.  But I couldn't think of any combat use for it, so I was just using a crossbow to plink at a flying enemy.  None of us could fly, so the bad guy just hovered out of melee range and walloped us with spells.

Then I thought, maybe I can make a shape like a bent stop sign.  You know?  So I touched the wall, and shaped a line up toward the ceiling, then across the ceiling, ending in a big block about 5' square and 1' thick.  It immediately fell.  My DM ruled that the enemy got a Reflex save, which he made, but still took half damage.  Bad guy lived, but was grounded and with a lot fewer hit points.

Every player was elated.  We had gone something like 10 rounds in near-futility.  We had no spells, and our tanks were ineffectual.  Seeing that slab of stone hit the guy, there was _actual cheering_ at the table.  It was a great moment.

Why not let these players have a great moment?


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## concerro (Apr 14, 2009)

aboyd said:


> I think there is a lot of work happening in this thread to try to find ways to foil the players.  Why?  Why so driven to have the dragon on rails?  Maybe the DM forgot that letting the players have a hilarious, awesome moment is more important?
> 
> A very good moment in a game I participated in came when we had been dungeon-crawling for too long, and we were out of spells.  Well, except one.  I had a Stone Shape spell.  But I couldn't think of any combat use for it, so I was just using a crossbow to plink at a flying enemy.  None of us could fly, so the bad guy just hovered out of melee range and walloped us with spells.
> 
> ...



If the OP said should he let his players do it. I might have given a different answer, but he wanted a rules-answer, and by the rules the dragon might, depending on feats, be able to avoid the wall of force, and it definitly isn't shapeable.  

If you ask me a rules question I give you a rules answer because I would expect the same in return. If I say "should I allow _____" then I may not be so interested in the rules, and I may be more willing to accept the fun answer.


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## Jhaelen (Apr 14, 2009)

aboyd said:


> I think there is a lot of work happening in this thread to try to find ways to foil the players.  Why?  Why so driven to have the dragon on rails?  Maybe the DM forgot that letting the players have a hilarious, awesome moment is more important?



Well, I wasn't disagreeing about the DM's decision, I was disagreeing about the interpretation what Blindsense allows a creature to detect and what not.

I'm fine with ignoring the rules in the interest of fun (from time to time).


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## aboyd (Apr 15, 2009)

concerro said:


> If you ask me a rules question I give you a rules answer because I would expect the same in return.



That's fine.  No need to defend your answer -- I wasn't attacking you, nor did I even have you specifically in mind.  I was just making a general comment "to the room" so to speak.



Jhaelen said:


> I'm fine with ignoring the rules in the interest of fun (from time to time).



Ah.  I'm kinda not OK with ignoring the rules, even though I'm the one that you're replying to.  I guess my post was worded poorly.

I think if there is a clear & obvious rule that prohibits what the player wanted to do, then to me, there's a rule.  Sorry, player.  So I wasn't quite advocating ignoring rules in the name of fun.  I'm just not that free-spirited, even though it's probably a good idea.

Instead, I intended to imply that the level of _work_ being put into finding a way to foil the player's intentions is too much for a lame payoff (that is, the player sits down, disappointed).  If the rule exists but is so obscure that we have to get into a 3-page thread to find it and hash it out, maybe that rule ain't good enough and an on-the-fly ruling in the favor of the player would make sense.

On top of that, even in all the effort in this thread, I'm still not convinced.  There are too many people making good counterpoints.  So even if we do have a rule, it's too much in dispute or it's too murky.  So I might rule in the player's favor again.

So... have a clear rule that stops the player?  Player is stopped.  But have a rule somewhere in one of many books and maybe if you look really hard for a while you might have something to stop the player?  Too much effort, player wins.  Have a rule at your fingertips, but it's ambiguous?  Nah, side with the player.

I hope that makes sense.  And also, that's just me putting my thoughts out there.  I'm not intending to tell anyone that they are "having fun wrong."  If some DM loves rule-hunting and rule-debating, and all the players are gung-ho to do that too, then by all means, have fun!


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## concerro (Apr 15, 2009)

I did not feel attacked. I was just making a point for the others even though I used the word "I".


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## aboyd (Apr 15, 2009)

Great!  Thanks.


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## Jason O. Ross (Nov 24, 2017)

*moving flying creature vs wall of force*

I had this come up as well in one of my games. 
- Wall needs to be flat ie no turns 
- DC 40 spot check to notice it
- doesn't need to be anchored 
Where it got tricky was the damage. 
The speed of the dragon was 240 ft per round. doing some math that came out to ~30 mph
I rulled that this was fall damage.

"Creatures that fall take 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6. Creatures that take lethal damage from a fall land in a prone position."

So that is max fall damage from the initial crash then ADDITIONAL fall damage from hitting the ground. It was 60 feet up at the time (ie max range for its breath weapon to effect the PCs) so it took an additional 6d6 pts. 

Additionally for those of you who say the dragon would get a perception check I say nay.

 "Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to *observable* stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action."

So first the wall is Invisible (not generally "observable")
Second the dragon in question is flying = move action in preparation for a strafing breath weapon attack
so unless you have true seeing or see invisibility up no way the dragon just notices it in time.

In summation:
A spot check is not a reflex save.
and 26d6 from a 6th level spell is incredible
Players also wanted the Dragon to have (at least) the dazed condition and having been in a 30mph crash myself I logically agreed.

Also because it was brought up in earlier posts the question of Blind Sense needs to be addressed.

"Blindsense lets a creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Perception  checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense  ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any  opponent that cannot be seen has total concealment  (50% miss chance) against a creature with blindsense, and the  blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking  foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see."

Blindsense is not blindsight and as such does not allow seeing of invisible inanimate non-moving objects like a rock, piece of equipment. The key here is the part "Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense" why is this the case?  Because it can not "see" where its going. 

Could the dragon notice a wall of force if it was looking for one? Yes absolutly as DM I would even give it a bonus to do so. 
Looking at it from a RAW perspective I can't see giving it a free perception check for invisible non creature objects in its flight path in the middle of combat unless it could be reasonably assumed it was looking for said objects.


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## Greenfield (Nov 24, 2017)

First, I applaud your Thread-Necromancy skills.  Halloween would have been a more fitting occasion than Thanksgiving, and it isn't yet the Full Moon, so...

But I digress.

First, by RAW there's no way to shape the Wall of Force into a Cube.  1st Edition allowed a caster to encircle a point, and said that it would then include a dome-like cover, but that's a long time ago.  So the DM was correct on that.

Second, unlike Iron, Stone or Ice, this Wall is immovable.  There's no chance of it falling, and nothing in the rules that says it has to be anchored to the ground. (or anything else).

Third, the only collision rules there are in D&D are from falling.  Since the question specified R.A.W., the Dragon takes no damage from flying into it.  Falling to the ground once it loses flight speed?  Sure, that will happen.

Fourth, does it get a Save?  The spell doesn't call for one, but some kind of check is appropriate to avoid the collision, _if the Dragon can Spot it. _  Blind Sense specifies "creatures", so by R.A.W. it won't get it automatically.  Still, they have one hell of a Spot check, and even at the -5 for "distracted" Spot, he might make it.  Applying some common sense, most flying creatures are sensitive to changes in wind and air movement.  Your Wall will definitely affect those, and that sort of subtle awareness of surroundings is exactly what Blind Sense is talking about, so I'd be temped to give him that one.  Considering his Poor maneuverability it probably won't make any difference.

Depending on the Dragon's skills at Spell Craft, even if it's ruled that he can't automatically know that the Wall is there, he can definitely Spot the caster, and with the right Spell Craft check he can know what spell was cast.  (One of the reasons I'd give it to him.)

Depending on how far the drop is from the Wall, the Dragon might well have time to recover.

I hate applying Physics to D&D, but...

1st second of falling, 32 feet per second, 32 feet fallen.
2nd second of falling, 64 feet per second, 96 feet fallen.
3rd second of falling, 96 feet per second, 192 feet fallen.
4th second of falling, 128 feet per second. 310 feet fallen.
5th second of falling, 160 feet per second, 470 feet fallen.
6th second of falling, 192 feet per second, 662 feet fallen.  (With the caveat that these speeds ignore wind resistance and terminal velocity.)

If the Dragon still has any kind of action left (i.e. he was still in his first Move, and hasn't attacked yet), and hasn't yet made a turn this round, then he should be able to get some flight control after 3 seconds,  And since his speed at that point is well below his flight speed, he should at a minimum be able to make a controlled landing.

So any height of 200 feet or higher he could save himself from falling damage.  He'd still be on the ground, but he'd probably be pissed.   Block him higher up and he may well  be able to pull out of that dive.

Now, want the ugly, R.A.W. solution?  If the Dragon Spots the wall (which I've said I'd give him straight up), his best bet is to _try_ and run into it.  At that point, it being an Invisible obstacle, he has a 50% chance of missing entirely.


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## Dandu (Nov 25, 2017)

And if he fails and hits the Wall, he could try to dive bomb the ground. If he misses his attack roll, he'll be back in the air.


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## Jason O. Ross (Nov 25, 2017)

Sounds like we agree on quit a bit except damage on the impact and your argument about a spot check due to air currents so here is a hypothetical question dealing with falling: According to RAW If said dragon starting at 240 ft up dove at 240ft move rate nose first into the ground how much damage would it take. Takes max fall damage of 20d6, correct? I'm just changing the axis 90° with the same RAW variables. As for feeling air currents to notice a wall of force it is my opinion that the wall wouldn't affect them. _Resilient Sphere_ spell:

           " The sphere functions as a wall of force...A subject inside the sphere can breathe normally...".

 This would seam to indicate that *normal* air flow is not effected by a wall of force, so there would nothing out of the ordinary to detect the wall from that point of view. Would the dragon still get a save? DM option I guess. I chose to give it a reflex save for half with a -2 a circumstance penalty (*spoiler* it failed) though I could have been pushed into not giving it one as I did rule it as fall damage and that doesn't get a save, so if the situation came up again I probably wouldn't. In hind sight though my dragon did have see invisibility as a spell but had not cast it. I had combat buffs up instead, in my defense it did have a cursed item that lowered it's int and wis to make it more controllable by the BBEG so super strategizing was not its strong suit at this point. 
Side note: If you want to know what you can do while falling and how far you have to fall before you can do it I use casting while falling rules as a good rule of thumb. 
By the way the bit about trying to hit the barrier with a 50% miss chance if noticed, true & hilarious!
I guess it come down to letting players come up with out of the box non traditional solutions and do your best with what the rules give you to work with to figure out the outcome and in this case the outcome was pretty cool!


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## Greenfield (Nov 25, 2017)

The Sphere spell is quite different from the Wall in many ways.  One of them being that the Sphere isn't air tight.  Or is it?  Does it act as a filter, so poison gasses are kept out but breathing isn't impaired?  Does it offer some sort of life support instead?  

We know that a "targeted Dispel Magic" can take down the Sphere, but not the Wall.  But the Wall never says, or even suggests that it it won't stop a Gust of Wind.  Quite the opposite.  And a window screen allows normal breathing, but definitely changes the air flow.

So, meaning no offense, I think your analogy is flawed.

The Save v the Wall isn't like a fall:  There's no outside force driving the Dragon into the wall, just inertia which can be reversed or redirected.  There is an outside force not simply driving a falling creature into the ground, it's accelerating the creature towards the ground.   

Also, the ground is a lot larger than the Wall spell.  Much harder to miss.  

Now, as I've mentioned a few times, the original question specifically mentioned RAW.  That's not the same as RAI, or how any particular table plays the game.  My answers were specific to RAW.  I wasn't trying to tell anyone how to run their game, and strict RAW isn't how I run mine.  

One problem I've found with trying to convert speed into falling distance is that D&D falling rules are linear:  Fixed increases in damage based on distance.  But falling speed is non-linear, in terms of distance.  It's linear relative to time, but as falling speed increases it takes less and less time to cover a given distance (such as 10 feet).  Turning game movement into falling distance gives very unsatisfying, uneven results.  You double the damage at less than double the speed.

Add in the in-game time spent doing the Trig' involved will tend to kill the adrenaline of the moment.  A serious action sequence, with a three minute interlude for calculating the acceleration curve and plotting it against a distance, will kill the fun far faster than it can kill any Dragon ever hatched.


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## Dandu (Nov 25, 2017)

> The Sphere spell is quite different from the Wall in many ways. One of them being that the Sphere isn't air tight. Or is it? Does it act as a filter, so poison gasses are kept out but breathing isn't impaired? Does it offer some sort of life support instead?




Likely the designers didn't want a spell that could both trap and suffocate an enemy.


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## Greenfield (Nov 25, 2017)

Oh I agree, though the duration, which is measured in minutes, is borderline too short to really do that.  

And it's funny because, as written, it would allow someone to breath "normally" in places where they normally couldn't.  We don't see much D&D in the vacuum of space, but under water?  In toxic gas clouds?  The summary description in the spell index says it "protects but traps" a creature.

Ironically I'd considered it as part of a death trap, popping one on a foe who was already inside a Cloud Kill, trapping them inside with it for what would probably be the rest of their life..  But, as written, the Sphere would save them from it instead.

In theory, a Force Cage _could_ be used to suffocate someone.

Question about the Sphere:  The duration is one minute per caster level.  The size is one foot diameter per caster level.  You can willingly cast a spell at a lower caster level than your character actually is, but if you reduce the size to fit the environment, are you also reducing the duration?

Other differences that make it clear the Sphere and the Wall aren't really comparable:  The Wall is Invisible, the Sphere isn't.  The Wall can't be taken down by Dispel, but the Sphere can.

Both say that nothing can pass through it, with the sphere adding the phrase "in or out" since there isn't an "in" or "out" of a Wall of Force.  The Wall specifies that it blocks all spells, other than Gaze effects.  The Sphere implies that, but never mentions spells passing through, nor Gaze effects.  So, accepted as written, Gaze effects are blocked by the Sphere.  Either that or it becomes a caster's best friend, protecting them from all physical harm (as opposed to magical harm) yet allowing them to cast with impunity.

I don't think it was intended to be a tank.

Now the Wall says it can't be cast where it passes through any object.  The Sphere, being, well, a sphere, will have only one point touching the ground, so if someone is standing on two or more feet then, by the strictest interpretation it couldn't be cast around them.  It would have to pass through at least one of their feet.  We tend to play that it can pass through the ground harmlessly, to allow standing space inside.  It doesn't "cut" the ground or damage it, it just permeates.


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## Cleon (Nov 25, 2017)

Greenfield said:


> I hate applying Physics to D&D, but...




Well I love applying Physics to D&D. It can produce some hilarious results.



Greenfield said:


> 1st second of falling, 32 feet per second, 32 feet fallen.
> 2nd second of falling, 64 feet per second, 96 feet fallen.
> 3rd second of falling, 96 feet per second, 192 feet fallen.
> 4th second of falling, 128 feet per second. 310 feet fallen.
> ...




The fall distances above are twice too large. The formula's distance = ½ × acceleration × time². It isn't acceleration × time².

Incidentally, a dragon travelling at 240 feet per round (or 40 feet per second) is moving at 27.8 mph, a speed equivalent to a fall of about 25 feet.

That's really neither here nor there. Gravity in 3E D&D-land clearly works in some bizarre fashion unrelated to our universe - the rules for Damage from Falling Objects make that quite clear.


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## Dandu (Nov 26, 2017)

Greenfield said:


> Oh I agree, though the duration, which is measured in minutes, is borderline too short to really do that.
> 
> And it's funny because, as written, it would allow someone to breath "normally" in places where they normally couldn't.  We don't see much D&D in the vacuum of space, but under water?  In toxic gas clouds?  The summary description in the spell index says it "protects but traps" a creature.
> 
> Ironically I'd considered it as part of a death trap, popping one on a foe who was already inside a Cloud Kill, trapping them inside with it for what would probably be the rest of their life..  But, as written, the Sphere would save them from it instead.




I don't know what you're talking about. It's perfectly normal to die from lack of air or poison gas.


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## Greenfield (Nov 26, 2017)

And it's perfectly natural to die if stabbed 27 times with a dagger, yet they don't refer to such a death a s"Natural".  It would be pretty unnatural _not_ to die from such serious wounds in fact.

So support your local medical examiner:  Die strangely!


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## Dandu (Nov 26, 2017)

Greenfield said:


> And it's perfectly natural to die if stabbed 27 times with a dagger, yet they don't refer to such a death a s"Natural".  It would be pretty unnatural _not_ to die from such serious wounds in fact.
> 
> So support your local medical examiner:  Die strangely!




There's an old joke.

_An old man, returning to his old neighborhood after some time away, saw a solemn funeral  procession winding its way down the street. He stopped and waved down a friend.

"Who died?" he asked.

"Baby Face Anglo's girlfriend," his friend responded.

"But she was so young! What did she die of?"

"Gonorrhea."

"But that's impossible! No one dies of gonorrhea."

"You do when you give it to Anglo."_

You see, death of blood loss is perfectly normal; for that matter, so is dying violently. Human history will tell you that much.

More seriously, "Breathe normally" likely means "breath as if unimpeded by the sphere". One could interpret it otherwise. One could also interpret the rules to allow a man at negative HP to be drowned and returned to zero. And, one might note, there's no rule on how to _stop_ drowning.

So how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Because I've adventured in Wonderland, gone through the looking glass, and sailed a boat beneath a sunny sky.


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## Greenfield (Nov 26, 2017)

Well, I prefer to read the entire sentence that applies here, instead of just one half.



			
				PHB said:
			
		

> Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere
> Evocation [Force]
> Level: Sor/Wiz 4
> Components: V, S, M
> ...




It says, very clearly, that nothing can pass through the sphere.  I take that at face value.  That same sentence also says that the subject can breathe normally.  I take that literally as well, and the only way that both can be true is if the Sphere provides either some form of adaptation or the spell includes life support in some form.

Choose your poison, but don't pretend that you can choose to accept half of a sentence in a spell description.  

As for the "Drowned and returned to zero" idea, we've played with a version of that.  It's actually a classic: Throw a bucket of water on someone who's been knocked out to wake them up.


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## Dandu (Nov 26, 2017)

> Nothing can pass through the sphere, inside or out, though the subject can breathe normally.




So let's see.

1. Nothing can pass in or out. 

Gas vapors on the outside remain out. Gas vapors inside remain in. The vacuum of space (if, indeed, outer space exists and operates according to such principals) is blocked so you won't decompress explosively, but you better have a bottle of air inside if you want air, as the sphere doesn't generate atmosphere. 

While you could interpret the protection clause to mean that, I think that is an example of false equivocation. You wouldn't argue that Exodus 19:13 shows that Moses owns a truck, would you? After all, does Scripture not say_'Beware that you do not go up on the mountain or touch the border of it; whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death. No hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned or shot through; whether beast or man, he shall not live.' *When the ram's horn sounds a long blast, they shall come up to the mountain.*_




2. The subject can breathe normally.

What's wrong with your breathing if you're surrounded by poison gas? Your lungs are working fine. You _are _breathing normally. Unfortunately, the gasses you are breathing in are no longer of benign composition.

QED.

Now, shall we have a tea party? I'd like to offer you half a cup of tea.


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## Greenfield (Nov 28, 2017)

Well, we could agree that "Breathe normally" means "Don't breathe at all", because it's perfectly "normal" to suffocate when locked in a hermetically sealed bubble.

That is, after all, the logical extension of your argument.  Except that we both know that that's now what it says or means at all.

Or, we could take the RAW at face value and stop trying to make it say something it doesn't.  By whatever means, a person inside the bubble can breathe normally.  The exact mechanism isn't really important, or worth arguing over.


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## Dandu (Nov 29, 2017)

Greenfield said:


> Well, we could agree that "Breathe normally" means "Don't breathe at all", because it's perfectly "normal" to suffocate when locked in a hermetically sealed bubble.




If we glance at the Suffocation rules, we see that:



> A Medium character can breathe easily for 6 hours in a sealed chamber measuring 10 feet on a side. After that time, the character takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage every 15 minutes. Each additional Medium character or significant fire source (a torch, for example) proportionally reduces the time the air will last. When a character falls unconscious from this nonlethal damage, she drops to -1 hit points and is dying. In the next round, she suffocates.
> 
> Small characters consume half as much air as Medium characters. A larger volume of air, of course, lasts for a longer time.




A Resilient Sphere has a diameter of 1ft per caster level. This is 7 feet at minimum. 

A chamber 10 feet long on each side has a volume of 1000 cubic feet. A Resilient Sphere with a diameter of 7 feet has a volume which follows the formula (4/3)*3.1415*(7/2)^3. This is roughly 180 cubic feet. (179.589083, 3 repeating to be precise.) 

The sphere has a volume that is 18% that of the cubic chamber, which we know provides a person with enough air for 6 hours. Thus, the Resilient Sphere, at the first level you can cast it, provides enough air for 6* 0.18 hours. That would be 1.08 hours, or 64.8 minutes. The duration of a CL 7 Resilient Sphere is 7 rounds. Each round is about 6 seconds, so the sphere lasts for 42 seconds. 

Thus, there is 93 times enough air to breath the sphere, assuming minimum caster level. You can extend it, but there'd still be enough air. You could double the occupant's size, and there'd still be enough air. 

So it would appear that there is no danger of suffocation if we take RAW at face value. Which, I am lead to believe, is your preferred approach?


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## Greenfield (Nov 29, 2017)

Sounds good to me.

By the way, the spell duration is one minute per level, not a round per level.  

Now, what if you enclose more than one person?


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## Dandu (Nov 29, 2017)

Greenfield said:


> Sounds good to me.
> 
> By the way, the spell duration is one minute per level, not a round per level.




Thank you for pointing that out.

With a duration of 7 minutes, a Resilient Sphere at Caster Level 7 lasts for 7 minutes. Which is a little less than 1/9th of 64.8 minutes.



> Now, what if you enclose more than one person?




As we agreed upon, a 7ft diameter sphere lasts for 7 minutes and has enough air for one person to survive for 64.8 minutes. You would have to pack in 9 people in total and you'd still have enough air: 64.8 minutes divided by 9 people = 7.2 minutes of air per person

Now, a Resilient Sphere may not manifest under ideal conditions. Perhaps there is a floor underneath the creature the Sphere is centered around. This wouldn't exactly result in a hemisphere if we take things literally, but let us assume so for the sake of my sanity. This would mean we'd be able to accommodate 4.5 people. So 4 humans and a halfling, then.

Well, what if it was Extended? We'd only be able to accommodate 2.25 people, or two humans and a pixie. 

In conclusion:

1. Breathe normally likely means "breathe as if in spherical room with no way in or out."

2. There's suffocation rules if you feel there is a risk for suffocation.

3. Suffocation is unlikely to come up unless you really enjoy math.


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## Greenfield (Nov 29, 2017)

I was joking.

With the duration in minutes, the sphere has "only" 9.3 times more air than needed, instead of 93.  And, since D&D rules don't allow more than one person in a square, except in he case of Grapples, there's no way to get the 9.3 people in that sphere.

The only reason Resilient Sphere came up was because someone equated it to Wall of Force, implying that the Wall wouldn't disturb air flow, since the Sphere allows the occupant to "breathe normally".

So, the occupant can breathe normally, which means it can in fact be sealed air tight, which means that even though it was a bad comparison in the first place the Wall will still disturb air flow, which suggests that it might be spotted by Blind Sense, which means it weighs the same as a duck or something.


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## Dandu (Nov 29, 2017)

> And, since D&D rules don't allow more than one person in a square, except in he case of Grapples, there's no way to get the 9.3 people in that sphere.




INCORRECT!

Epic Escape Artist



> The character can pass through spaces smaller than his or her head, or even through a wall of force.
> 
> DC	Task
> 80	Extremely tight space
> ...


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## Greenfield (Nov 29, 2017)

Are we really going to keep doing this, correcting each other?

Okay, I'll play.

Epic Escape artist may be able to find a way through a brick wall, or a Wall of Force.

According to the PHB, page 148, under "Ending your movement", you can't end your movement in the square of another creature unless they're helpless.

The only other exception is in the case of a Grapple:  PHB Page 156, Stage 4 under starting a Grapple says, "Step 4: Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.) 
Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.
If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1."

So you might be able to slide between air molecules but you still can't finish the slide in the same square as someone else.


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## Deset Gled (Nov 29, 2017)

Greenfield said:


> Are we really going to keep doing this, correcting each other?



  Isn't that why we're all here?  



> Okay, I'll play.
> ...
> So you might be able to slide between air molecules but you still can't finish the slide in the same square as someone else.




You're forgetting about rules for squeezing (remember, the sphere is more than one square in size), rules for creatures that are smaller than "small" and take up less than a square, cases where the sphere is larger (size is based on caster level), and the presence of other things that may consume oxygen (i.e. fire).

The bottom line is that if you're going to try and be pedantic you can't hand-wave the "breathe normally" clause away by just saying "the sphere is big enough".


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## Greenfield (Nov 30, 2017)

I'm not the one who argued the size of the sphere or the volume of air consumed.

I said that creatures inside one could breathe normally, by whatever mechanism, despite the fact that neither air nor anything else can pass through.  How?  It's magic.

And generally this isn't a competitive forum for the self-aggrandizement of posters.  There are plenty of shouting matches out there.  As a rule, we don't come here for that.  In fact, it can get people banned.


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## Dandu (Nov 30, 2017)

> I said that creatures inside one could breathe normally, by whatever mechanism, despite the fact that neither air nor anything else can pass through. How? It's magic.




I think the chief contention is that interpreting "normally" to mean "generates air in a vacuum" and "dispels the Cloudkill that was surrounding you" is unwarranted. Especially not for Cloudkill, which doesn't rely on inhalation.



> A living creature with 6 or more HD takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage on your turn each round while in the cloud (a successful Fortitude save halves this damage). *Holding one’s breath doesn’t help*, but creatures immune to poison are unaffected by the spell.


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## Greenfield (Nov 30, 2017)

I interpret "Normally" to mean, well, normally.  As in the way one usually breathes.  Not just the mechanics of working the lungs, which you can do in a vacuum or under water, but normally, like we do all day, every day, supporting life.

That means that there's somehow air to breathe, and it's breathable.

How?  It's magic.  The exact mechanism doesn't matter, it's "Special Effect" as they say in the super-hero games.  

Now, all the math you threw at this proves that, for the most part, we don't have to worry about it.  The spell says we don't have to worry about it.

So why are we worrying about it?


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## Deset Gled (Nov 30, 2017)

Greenfield said:


> I interpret "Normally" to mean, well, normally.  As in the way one usually breathes.  Not just the mechanics of working the lungs, which you can do in a vacuum or under water, but normally, like we do all day, every day, supporting life.
> 
> That means that there's somehow air to breathe, and it's breathable.
> 
> How?  It's magic.  The exact mechanism doesn't matter, it's "Special Effect" as they say in the super-hero games.




You are interpreting normal to mean "under ideal circumstances" or "under average circumstance".  Normal could also mean "normal for the conditions before the spell was cast; there are no added effects resulting from this spell".  The simple text "the subject can breathe normally" is ambiguous.  But there's other information in the spell description that explains "how" the magic works.

Note that the spell is an Evocation.  If the magic worked like Water Breathing to convert other material to breathable air, it would be a Transmutation spell.  If it created air, it would be a Conjuration.  If it was a protection spell it would be an Abjuration.  It's none of these, implying that all it does is evoke a gas-permeable field of force and nothing else.

Furthermore, Resilient Sphere has an effect, not a target.  Consider the case where two subjects are caught in the Sphere, one which breathes air and one which breathes water.  Under your interpretation, the spell has a different effect on both subjects (one is supplied air, the other supplied water).  This is not in line with a spell that has single Evocation effect.

Your interpretation also has other ambiguities that require further interpretation.  For example, if the Sphere is cast in an area filled with poison gas, what happens to the poison gas?  Is it suppressed/removed inside the sphere, or merely ignored by the subject?  If cast in a vacuum, can a subject in the sphere subsequently light a candle?  Can a subject in a vacuum use their breath to blow a leaf across the sphere?  If a character has a permanent malady (birth defect, alternate biology, etc) that causes them to suffer a penalty for normally breathing air, does the sphere remove that penalty even though it is "normal" for them to experience that penalty?


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## Dandu (Nov 30, 2017)

Greenfield said:


> I interpret "Normally" to mean, well, normally.  As in the way one usually breathes.  Not just the mechanics of working the lungs, which you can do in a vacuum or under water, but normally, like we do all day, every day, supporting life.
> 
> That means that there's somehow air to breathe, and it's breathable.
> 
> How?  It's magic.  The exact mechanism doesn't matter, it's "Special Effect" as they say in the super-hero games.




If an indevidual with tuburulosis were to be subject to a Resilient Sphere, would he be temporarily cured?

To put it simply, you are attempting to apply exploitative Iron Heart Surge logic to the Resilient Sphere.



> Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.




One could interpret "effect" and "condition" to refer to status effects such as nausea, shaken, level drain, etc. 

One could also interpret it as refering to dermatitis, sunburn, and gravity. How? It's magic!


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## Greenfield (Nov 30, 2017)

"Normally" doesn't mean "like the average person under common circumstances", and I never suggested that it did.

It means "like you, under common circumstances".  I would have used the word "normal" in place of "common", but using a word to define itself is bad form.

Not clear on why this is so hard.  You keep trying to read the spell, and my statements, to say the exact opposite of what the words mean.  

Are you arguing just to argue?

Here's a new phrase to consider and debate the meaning of:  "In good faith".


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