# Does the shardmind seem overpowered?



## Zinovia (Mar 19, 2010)

They have:
• Telepathy so they can communicate with anything that has a language
• Three starting languages
• Encounter teleport that also gives them combat advantage against foes they were adjacent to
• +2 to three different skills
• No need to eat, breathe, sleep, drink, and resulting immunities from associated penalties
• A scaling resist vs. psychic damage, which is fairly common

Their teleport isn't as cool as the eladrin one because it requires an adjacent enemy to target and is half their speed, rather than 5.  It does give you CA vs that target, which is nice.  I rate it as comparable. 

I noticed that the immunities of other races also scale (by 1/2 level), which I didn't think was initially the case, but I don't have a copy of the PH here right now to check the pre-errataed version.  Comparable I guess.  

That still leaves skill bonuses to 3 skills, and an extra starting language over most races, along with the whole telepathy thing that renders language almost moot.  

Maybe shardminds are balanced with other races, but something about them puts me off.  My son's response when we were looking at the PH3 was "They're OP!"  I think it's the living construct immunities that make us feel that way.  My campaign uses nothing from Eberron, including warforged.  As it stands, I will not be incorporating shardminds into my game for now.  I can make room for the other races, but these things seem like a jarring discrepancy.  They don't fit.  

Perhaps we're in the minority here, but I really dislike the shardmind, much as I dislike warforged outside of Eberron.  We didn't need a version of the warforged that is smart rather than strong.


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## keterys (Mar 19, 2010)

In terms of combat statistics, they're nothing too extraordinary, but they have one of the strongest combined packages of non-combat abilities along with they're decent combat ones, yes.


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## Obryn (Mar 19, 2010)

Compared to what, though?  Telepathy is a very strong out-of-combat ability with some in-combat uses if your DM is a stickler about discussing tactics.  Extra languages are redundant with that telepathy, so I think they're irrelevant here.  The skill bonuses are nice, but they really get just one more +2 than most other races.  Psychic resistance is a middling-quality feature - it's better than Radiant resistance, but not as good as Necrotic or Fire.  (I'd rather have a Defense bonus, but YMMV.)  And having no need to eat or drink is of frankly limited in-game usefulness...  It's awesome in certain environments, but probably useless for 95%+ of 4e adventuring.

Compare them to Devas, Eladrin, Dwarves, Elves, Humans...  I think they're right about on-par.

I think they're probably the strongest race in PHB3, but I also think that, overall, the PHB3 races are weaker than the ones in PHB1+2, flexible ability scores or no.

-O


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## keterys (Mar 19, 2010)

I think Devas are stronger in combat and weaker out of combat.


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## Mengu (Mar 19, 2010)

keterys said:


> I think Devas are stronger in combat and weaker out of combat.




Intelligence and Wisdom covers a lot of non-combat skills, and MoTL can be used in skill challenges. In my game I find that the Deva Shaman is the skill monkey of the group. Nobody trained in Thievery? Not a problem, the Deva Shaman can handle it. Any time there is a critical skill check, the Deva seems to be volunteered for it, except when Charisma is needed.

I think Shardminds have a great combination of racial features. But they are no Dwarf, Dragonborn, or Drow. Certainly not overpowered.


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## Flipguarder (Mar 19, 2010)

If Minatours and Wilden were at all decent races. Like if they didn't completely suck at most things, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.


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## Piratecat (Mar 19, 2010)

Flipguarder said:


> If Minatours and Wilden were at all decent races. Like if they didn't completely suck at most things, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.



Dude, they're _cows _and _trees_. Go ask a cow and a tree to do something. They're almost certainly going to suck at it unless you order them to "chew cud!" or "be deciduous!" It's no surprise that the minotaur and wilden aren't good at everything.

Not like rocks. Rocks are _awesome_.


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## fba827 (Mar 19, 2010)

Piratecat said:


> Dude, they're _cows _and _trees_. Go ask a cow and a tree to do something. They're almost certainly going to suck at it unless you order them to "chew cud!" or "be deciduous!" It's no surprise that the minotaur and wilden aren't good at everything.
> 
> Not like rocks. Rocks are _awesome_.




But... paper beats rock... paper.

Anything defeated by paper can not be awesome!


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## OhGodtheRats (Mar 19, 2010)

fba827 said:


> But... paper beats rock... paper.
> 
> Anything defeated by paper can not be awesome!




I don't know.  Paper can be pretty dangerous in D&D.


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## Aduro (Mar 19, 2010)

fba827 said:


> But... paper beats rock... paper.
> 
> Anything defeated by paper can not be awesome!




Never seen Read Or Die eh?


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## OhGodtheRats (Mar 19, 2010)

Aduro said:


> Never seen Read Or Die eh?



I thought the main point of Read or Die was that BREASTS are awesome?


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## fba827 (Mar 19, 2010)

OhGodtheRats said:


> I don't know.  Paper can be pretty dangerous in D&D.




Eh, that paper was made from the skin of wildens


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## Deverash (Mar 19, 2010)

So we can expect the Scissorlimb race for PHB4?


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## OhGodtheRats (Mar 19, 2010)

Deverash said:


> So we can expect the Scissorlimb race for PHB4?




Nah, this is Wizards of the Coast.  They'll go old school and bring back this bad boy:

Edit:  Oops.  I Hotlinked to myself and got COcky.  I was originally talking about the ScissorLizard, from MtG's Unbound set.  (It defeated the Paper Tiger but was vulnerable to the Rock Lobster. )


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## Turtlejay (Mar 19, 2010)

OhGodtheRats said:


> Nah, this is Wizards of the Coast. They'll go old school and bring back this bad boy:




Ouch, hotlink fail. . .


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## Baumi (Mar 19, 2010)

Flipguarder said:


> If Minatours and Wilden were at all decent races. Like if they didn't completely suck at most things, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.




What's so bad about these two?


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## Flipguarder (Mar 20, 2010)

They have very little going for them compared to say telepathy, closeburst CA powers, 3 skill bonuses, damage resist, synergistic Racial powers and Paragon paths.


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## Obryn (Mar 20, 2010)

Baumi said:


> What's so bad about these two?



The minotaur is fairly underpowered compared to every other Str/Con race.  They have basically one trick - the goring shove or whatever it's called.  And their other ability works only when they get knocked to 0.  Now, with some feats, they aren't bad - but they are pretty far short of most other classes.

Wilden... well...  hmmm...  Does "weird and kinda boring" count as a flaw? 

-O


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## Shroomy (Mar 20, 2010)

IMO, there's nothing wrong with the wilden (I quite like them actually), but the minotaur is one of the weaker, if not the weakest (in terms of racial features), of the Str/Con races.  Probably their biggest issue is that their racial abilities really pigeonhole you.  Now, I don't think you'll be totally screwed, or even really that disadvantaged, if you play a minotaur and I'm sure they'll get some nice things in the future.


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## OhGodtheRats (Mar 20, 2010)

Not that it matters much, but do note that the Minotaurs in the PHB3 are different from the Dragon ones...they're _not _a Str/Con Race.... they're a Str/Con or Wis race.    I'm pretty happy about the Change...the Minotaur makes in interesting choice when you're looking to make a Wisdom-based character.


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## Drevvin (Mar 20, 2010)

Actually if you look at the Shardmind I understand the Telepathy as from what I gathered from the artwork they don't have mouths so they would have to have telepathy to speak.  And yah eladrin teleport ability is nice got our cleric through a trap door without setting it off so the Shardmind version is nowhere near as good heh.  I am playing a Human/Shardmind hybrid race kinda strange but I'll let ya know how that works out.


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## Samurai (Mar 20, 2010)

If anything, it's the Wilden that is underpowered.  They get almost nothing... sure, they can choose between 3 powers each day, but that's it besides +1 to 1 defense!  I decided to give each Aspect a bonus of its own as well.


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## Kinneus (Mar 20, 2010)

OhGodtheRats said:


> Not that it matters much, but do note that the Minotaurs in the PHB3 are different from the Dragon ones...they're _not _a Str/Con Race.... they're a Str/Con or Wis race. I'm pretty happy about the Change...the Minotaur makes in interesting choice when you're looking to make a Wisdom-based character.



Yeah, I agree with. Minotaurs are not particularly powerful, but they're another option for a Str/Wis race. Which is nice, as I've never been big on Shifters.


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## Errantocracy (Mar 20, 2010)

Zinovia said:


> They have:
> • Telepathy so they can communicate with anything that has a language
> • Three starting languages
> 
> ...




Alright, I seem to be in the minority here, but my impression was that even if the Shardmind could start a telepathic conversation with anything that had a language, they would still need a shared language to get any messages across.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Mar 20, 2010)

Kinneus said:


> Yeah, I agree with. Minotaurs are not particularly powerful, but they're another option for a Str/Wis race. Which is nice, as I've never been big on Shifters.




Also, and this is vitally important, you get to mooooooo as you move around the board!

I find that more than offsets any other racial abilities.  Hell, I enjoyed mine before I got an extra healing surge and an extra language.

Brad


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## Shin Okada (Mar 20, 2010)

Kinneus said:


> Yeah, I agree with. Minotaurs are not particularly powerful, but they're another option for a Str/Wis race. Which is nice, as I've never been big on Shifters.




This!

I never ever liked shifters. Minotaur is far much cool-looking and distinctive race.


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## Mengu (Mar 20, 2010)

If I was going to play a Minotaur, it would be for Bloodied Ferocity. If I played a Wilden, it would be for Wrath of the Destroyer. Other than these two things, not much going on for these races yet. Time may change that.

I feel Wilden need an additional racial feature (just something, doesn't have to be spectacular), and a good feat. The latter will eventually come I'm sure. The former, not likely. Minotaurs need a different encounter power so their encounter power isn't worse than an at-will, and also to make ranged builds more viable. If only Goring Charge had been a move action...

As it is, I'd still be willing to try out a minotaur fighter or wilden avenger for a short term or one shot game.


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## Destil (Mar 20, 2010)

Cyfer said:


> Alright, I seem to be in the minority here, but my impression was that even if the Shardmind could start a telepathic conversation with anything that had a language, they would still need a shared language to get any messages across.






			
				Comprehendium said:
			
		

> Telepathy
> 
> A creature that has telepathy can communicate telepathically with any other creature that has a language. The other creature must be within line of effect and within a specified range. Telepathy allows for two-way communication.




Telepathy isn't amazingly powerful, there's plenty of downsides that were brought up when people thought it was amazing for the kalashatar. However, I personally think it's basicly an extra at-will utility power, and a flexible one at that. Shardmind have a big laundry list of other things, but they're not really overpowered. Having Con/Int as an option would have made them a lot more powerful and been a bit more flavorful than half the junk they did decide to tack on.

May be my first house ruled race...


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## DracoSuave (Mar 20, 2010)

Destil said:


> Telepathy isn't amazingly powerful, there's plenty of downsides that were brought up when people thought it was amazing for the kalashatar. However, I personally think it's basicly an extra at-will utility power, and a flexible one at that. Shardmind have a big laundry list of other things, but they're not really overpowered. Having Con/Int as an option would have made them a lot more powerful and been a bit more flavorful than half the junk they did decide to tack on.
> 
> May be my first house ruled race...




Con/Int would have kept them out of Ardent and made them inferior in Psion.  Given they're supposed to be the 'mental psion race' in the book, that's sort of shooting yourself in the foot.


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## Henry (Mar 20, 2010)

Turtlejay said:


> Ouch, hotlink fail. . .




No, he meant the squirrel -- you haven't experienced fear in Magic: the Gathering 'till you've seen twenty-five 7/7 squirrel tokens barrelling down on your front lines.


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## Squire James (Mar 20, 2010)

Heh, I remember a game where my opponent had a life-gain loop going that gained him over 100 life per turn, but because of my army of squirrels I still won the game!


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## Prestidigitalis (Mar 20, 2010)

Drevvin said:


> Actually if you look at the Shardmind I understand the Telepathy as from what I gathered from the artwork they don't have mouths so they would have to have telepathy to speak.




I have no mouth, and I must bluff?


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## lukelightning (Mar 20, 2010)

I think they are a bit overpowered for most of the reasons other people have mentioned. Plus I think their name is  just lazy. Remember in the Simpsons when they want to add a dog character to Itchy and Scratchy, and the executive basically says "name him something like 'Poochie', but not 'Poochie'" and when he leaves, all the writers say "Ok, Poochie it is!" — well anyways, that's what "Shardmind" feels like to me.

Also: Boobs on a Rock?!?!?



Piratecat said:


> Not like rocks. Rocks are _awesome_.




So you are saying that rocks _rock_?


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## Obryn (Mar 20, 2010)

lukelightning said:


> Also: Boobs on a Rock?!?!?



That's actually explained in the fluff.   They take on humanoid forms, and decide to look male or female.

-O


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## Flipguarder (Mar 20, 2010)

If I ever play a shardmind, I'd choose to have the best of both worlds.


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## KarinsDad (Mar 20, 2010)

keterys said:


> In terms of combat statistics, they're nothing too extraordinary, but they have one of the strongest combined packages of non-combat abilities along with they're decent combat ones, yes.




+2 to any other skill is huge. Especially when added to background +2, trained, etc.

+2 to either Wisdom or Charisma opens up a lot of classes as well. Most races are somewhat limited to approximately 1/3rd of the classes, these are limited to approximately half.

Telepathy is always underated.

And I think that Shard Swarm kicks butt over Fey Step.


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## Rachel (Mar 21, 2010)

lukelightning said:


> Plus I think their name is just lazy. Remember in the Simpsons when they want to add a dog character to Itchy and Scratchy, and the executive basically says "name him something like 'Poochie', but not 'Poochie'" and when he leaves, all the writers say "Ok, Poochie it is!" — well anyways, that's what "Shardmind" feels like to me.




*Shifter*, anyone?


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## Demosthenes (Mar 21, 2010)

A Shardmind that's a Feytouched Warlock could be rather awesome. Especially since their Racial would deal Int mod damage to everyone that it granted CA to.


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## Colmarr (Mar 24, 2010)

Obryn said:


> Extra languages are redundant with that telepathy, so I think they're irrelevant here.




Does telepathy allow you to overhear the thoughts of a creature that isn't trying to communicate with you?

Eg. Could a shardmind translate the battle commands of the goblin warlord who is shouting in Goblin, even if Goblin isn't one of the shardmind's languages?

I haven't seen anything that indicates either way, but I'm inclined to rule that it couldn't.

Furthermore, telepathy won't help you read the BBEG's careless notes to his followers that are written in giant/abyssal/language of choice.

It's a small niche perhaps, but a niche nonetheless.


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## mkill (Mar 24, 2010)

Is it just me or did 4th edition ruin everyone's sense for what is overpowered? Just two years ago, we were talking about Anthropomorphic Baleen Whales at the same spot, and now people complain about a race with +2 to 3 skills.



And no, I don't want those days back, but let's keep a bit of perspective, shall we?


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## Jhaelen (Mar 24, 2010)

mkill said:


> Is it just me or did 4th edition ruin everyone's sense for what is overpowered?



Indeed 
I think it shows just how incredibly well balanced 4e actually is. 
And if something 'overpowered' does slip through, it gets errata fairly quickly.


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## Prestidigitalis (Mar 24, 2010)

mkill said:


> Anthropomorphic Baleen Whales




Uh.  Uh....  Uh???  Uh*****?!?#**#@WTF?

I have just experienced the kaleidoscopic thrill of wondering whether the Old Schoolers may have a point after all.


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## Herschel (Mar 24, 2010)

Flipguarder said:


> If I ever play a shardmind, I'd choose to have the best of both worlds.





Oooo, a character based on a Steven Lynch song/bit.


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## Flipguarder (Mar 24, 2010)

1st, Cool you know about steven lynch
2nd, its stephen lynch
3rd, what song of his says that. I know of "hermaphrodite" but I dont think it ever says "the best of both worlds"
4th I'm fairly certain stephen lynch didn't originate the concept of a hermaphrodite.
5th IF anything its a miley cyrus/hanna montana reference
6th It is both sad and creepy that I could make such a reference, let alone have the will to state in a post that I could make the reference.


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## Drevvin (Mar 25, 2010)

Colmarr said:


> Does telepathy allow you to overhear the thoughts of a creature that isn't trying to communicate with you?
> 
> Eg. Could a shardmind translate the battle commands of the goblin warlord who is shouting in Goblin, even if Goblin isn't one of the shardmind's languages?
> 
> ...




I am pretty sure based on what I have read that you can only communicate one way so you can telepathically talk to someone but they can't reply back in your mind it would have to be verbal unless said target of the link could also use telepathy.  Just my .002 cents *verizon joke*


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## DracoSuave (Mar 25, 2010)

Drevvin said:


> I am pretty sure based on what I have read that you can only communicate one way so you can telepathically talk to someone but they can't reply back in your mind it would have to be verbal unless said target of the link could also use telepathy.  Just my .002 cents *verizon joke*




telepathy: A creature that has telepathy can communicate telepathically with any other creature that has a language. The other creature must be within line of effect and within a specified range. *Telepathy allows for two-way communication.
*

When in doubt, look the damn thing up.


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## Jhaelen (Mar 25, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> When in doubt, look the damn thing up.



I'll wager most people posting here are away from their books


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## Plane Sailing (Mar 25, 2010)

cignus_pfaccari said:


> Also, and this is vitally important, you get to mooooooo as you move around the board!




All of a sudden I want to play a Minotaur!


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## Plane Sailing (Mar 25, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> telepathy: A creature that has telepathy can communicate telepathically with any other creature that has a language. The other creature must be within line of effect and within a specified range. *Telepathy allows for two-way communication.
> *




Does it state whether it has to be willing two-way communication? I presume that it allows the creature with telepathy to communicate to another creature and hear its responses, but not to eavesdrop on its thoughts?

n.b. the definition introduces a little bit of conceptual weirdness, in that telepathy doesn't work through a glass window. Personally I would have thought that it makes more sense for it to work within line of sight rather than line of effect, from a traditional perspective.

Regards,


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## DracoSuave (Mar 25, 2010)

Plane Sailing said:


> Does it state whether it has to be willing two-way communication? I presume that it allows the creature with telepathy to communicate to another creature and hear its responses, but not to eavesdrop on its thoughts?
> 
> n.b. the definition introduces a little bit of conceptual weirdness, in that telepathy doesn't work through a glass window. Personally I would have thought that it makes more sense for it to work within line of sight rather than line of effect, from a traditional perspective.
> 
> Regards,




It's two-way communication, not one-way mindraping.

if the power allowed you to read their thoughts unwillingly, then it would allow them to do exactly the same to you.


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## KarinsDad (Mar 25, 2010)

Plane Sailing said:


> Does it state whether it has to be willing two-way communication? I presume that it allows the creature with telepathy to communicate to another creature and hear its responses, but not to eavesdrop on its thoughts?




I personally think that Telepathy is powerful enough without it being ESP or having additional benefits. And yes, it has to be willing conversation.

I read it as:

telepathy: *A creature that has telepathy* can communicate telepathically with any other creature that has a language. The other creature must be within line of effect and within a specified range. Telepathy allows for two-way communication.

I emphasize the first part here. The creature that has telepathy can communicate telepathically. Nobody else can.

The "allows for two-way communication" clause is for once telepathy is initiated. Other creatures who do not have telepathy cannot start a conversation with a telepath, the telepath has to initiate it.

It's like cell phones where the telepath has everyone's number, but nobody else does. Once he calls you, you can chat on the phone until either side hangs up. You cannot call anyone else, even the Telepath. You don't have his number. You don't have the power.

Otherwise, it has too great of utility in combat for PCs who do not possess the power if they were allowed to initiate Telepathy with the PC who does have the power.


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## Mistwell (Mar 29, 2010)

I am happy that telepathy as a racial power is back. I missed the ghostwise halfling ability.  And I think it would be fairly easy to convert this into a ghostwise, with some tweaks here and there for the construct parts.


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## Andrew D. Gable (Mar 31, 2010)

Flipguarder said:


> 5th IF anything its a miley cyrus/hanna montana reference




I took it as a fake porno title in_ Clerks _reference upon reading the initial post.


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## sorren24 (Apr 8, 2010)

If you look on the wording of the card in the target block verbatim it reads,

One creature that shares a language with you. 

To clarify, unless your character knows the language of the target for which he/she is attempting to communicate with, the power doesn't work.


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## Herschel (Apr 8, 2010)

Flipguarder said:


> I know of "hermaphrodite" but I dont think it ever says "the best of both worlds"
> 4th I'm fairly certain stephen lynch didn't originate the concept of a hermaphrodite.




He didn't originate it, but he wrote the song that popped in to my head.


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## knifie_sp00nie (Apr 8, 2010)

I'm kinda annoyed that the shardmind gets real telepathy while the psion class gets a really gimped version. Easy to houserule, but the cantrip-like abilities for the psion could have been better. Or at least made equal with a feat.


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## Zinovia (Apr 9, 2010)

sorren24 said:


> If you look on the wording of the card in the target block verbatim it reads,
> 
> One creature that shares a language with you.
> 
> To clarify, unless your character knows the language of the target for which he/she is attempting to communicate with, the power doesn't work.




Welcome to ENWorld!

I haven't used the Character Builder to make a Shardmind, so I haven't seen the power card text that it generates.  What PH3 and the Compendium state is:


			
				D&D Compendium said:
			
		

> Telepathy: You can communicate telepathically with any creature within 5 squares of you that has a language.



Needless to say that has a different meaning - you can't telepathically communicate with something that doesn't speak at all, but can with anything that has a language; any language.  

I find it interesting that the ability was altered in the Character Builder with the target line.  That limitation doesn't occur anywhere else, and is fairly significant as it expressly contradicts what is stated in the book.  Given that not all players use the CB to make their characters, it's a poor place to put errata or clarifications of the published rules.  Perhaps this heralds a change coming in a future posted update.


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## Mort_Q (Apr 9, 2010)

Zinovia said:


> I find it interesting that the ability was altered in the Character Builder with the target line.




I can't find it anywhere... perhaps *sorren24* was making a Psion and mistook the *Send Thought* power for the racial ability?


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## Zinovia (Apr 9, 2010)

Mort_Q said:


> perhaps *sorren24* was making a Psion and mistook the *Send Thought* power for the racial ability?



Ah, that seems likely.  That exact wording is on the Target line of the _Send Thoughts_ power for the psion.  Mystery solved, thanks.


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## doctorhook (May 24, 2010)

Sorry 'bout the necrothread, but I just finally got around to reading the Shardmind entry. Aside from thinking them to be very silly, my reaction is, "Say what?! They're the unholy offspring of Warforged and Kalashtars, but superior to Kalashtars in essentially every way."

(The only thing Kalashtars seem to have on Shardminds is the Dual Soul feature, which only allows saves against "dazed" and "dominated" at the beginning of your turn, instead of -- *not* in addition to -- and the end of your turn.)

Since Shardminds are alleged not to be overpowered (according to this thread), does that mean that Kalashtars are desperately underpowered?

Suggestions?


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## keterys (May 24, 2010)

Shardminds can't be +Wis and Cha, don't give you a save vs daze/stun at start of turn, and are less party friendly than Bastion. I'd certainly give them the nod over Kalashtars, but I hardly think Kalashtar got left in the dust, especially for certain character types like Chaladins and Laser Clerics who likely prefer Kalashtar over Shardminds.


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## Bold or Stupid (May 24, 2010)

I also love Kalashtar's ability to create a within party telepathy network with a feat.


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## Otterscrubber (May 24, 2010)

Yes, far to usefull.  You are going to most likely play a psionic class, and they have a feat option that gives them +2 damage that scales with tier with all psioinic abilities.  I can't think of another feat that allows you basically bonus damage to all your abilities.  And it's only for them.  Along with their other stuff.  Frankly I find all the PHB3 races unacceptable for any campaign we typically run.  

But to answer the main questions yes, far too many options to increase their damage, mobility and environmental survivability.  OP dude, OP


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## keterys (May 25, 2010)

Otterscrubber said:


> I can't think of another feat that allows you basically bonus damage to all your abilities.




For clarification:
Dwarven Weapon Training
Goliath Greatweapon Prowess
Hellfire Blood
Draconic Spellcaster

and basically every other 'this race is good with these types of attacks' feat there is, does that


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## doctorhook (May 25, 2010)

keterys said:


> Shardminds can't be +Wis and Cha, don't give you a save vs daze/stun at start of turn, and are less party friendly than Bastion. I'd certainly give them the nod over Kalashtars, but I hardly think Kalashtar got left in the dust, especially for certain character types like Chaladins and Laser Clerics who likely prefer Kalashtar over Shardminds.



So, what you're saying is that Kalashtars are a niche race, meant for filling in a couple of pigeonholes that Shardminds can't?

EDIT: Also, what do mean, "(Shardminds are) less party friendly than Bastion?" Who's Bastion? Right now, I can only think of that sentinel-guy from X-Men, or possibly the kid from Neverending Story -- and neither one looks like they'd be much fun at parties...


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## bganon (May 25, 2010)

Bastion... of Mental Clarity.  Which I really think is a better racial power than Shard Swarm, which is kind of crap.  Teleport 3 and CA for the shardmind only?  Meh.

And Dual Soul is really very good.  It's basically -1 round to all "save ends" daze/dominate durations.  Considering that in practice "save ends" usually means something lasts at least 1 turn but rarely more than 2 (only about 20% of the time with zero bonus to saves), chopping a turn off that means daze/dominate effects often don't do a thing to Kalashtar, and rarely last more than a turn.  The average decrease in effect duration is larger than *any* amount of bonus to saving throws (because even infinite bonus still doesn't change that you normally save at the end of your turn).


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## keterys (May 25, 2010)

doctorhook said:


> So, what you're saying is that Kalashtars are a niche race, meant for filling in a couple of pigeonholes that Shardminds can't?




Exactly - just like Halflings with Trickster Rogues and Wild/Storm Sorcerers, or Elves with Archer Rangers, Feral Druids, or Centered Monks, or... 



> EDIT: Also, what do mean, "(Shardminds are) less party friendly than Bastion?" Who's Bastion? Right now, I can only think of that sentinel-guy from X-Men, or possibly the kid from Neverending Story -- and neither one looks like they'd be much fun at parties...




You really might want to know the races being compared. It's a notable ability on Kalashtars - the Kalashtar I adventured with last week used it to make at least four attacks miss the party, all of which dazed or dominated. Very helpful.


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## doctorhook (May 25, 2010)

bganon said:


> Bastion... of Mental Clarity.  Which I really think is a better racial power than Shard Swarm, which is kind of crap.  Teleport 3 and CA for the shardmind only?  Meh.



Hahaha oops. Natural 1 on my Intelligence check, there. Thanks for sorting me out. 



bganon said:


> And Dual Soul is really very good.  It's basically -1 round to all "save ends" daze/dominate durations.  Considering that in practice "save ends" usually means something lasts at least 1 turn but rarely more than 2 (only about 20% of the time with zero bonus to saves), chopping a turn off that means daze/dominate effects often don't do a thing to Kalashtar, and rarely last more than a turn.  The average decrease in effect duration is larger than *any* amount of bonus to saving throws (because even infinite bonus still doesn't change that you normally save at the end of your turn).



Hmm... that does sound pretty handy, now that it's explained to me. Thanks again!



keterys said:


> Exactly - just like Halflings with Trickster Rogues and Wild/Storm Sorcerers, or Elves with Archer Rangers, Feral Druids, or Centered Monks, or...



Go on... Are you saying that it's okay for a race to only excel in one or two builds, while some other races excel in many builds?



keterys said:


> You really might want to know the races being compared. It's a notable ability on Kalashtars - the Kalashtar I adventured with last week used it to make at least four attacks miss the party, all of which dazed or dominated. Very helpful.



I see what you're saying, keterys. FWIW, I'm pretty familiar with Kalashtar, but when you said, "_and are less party friendly than Bastion_," it didn't even occur to me that you were talking about the Kalashtar racial power (Bastion of Mental Clarity). No harm done. 

To be fair though, you're not always very clear in your posts. For example, in the sentence I mentioned above, you didn't change the referent of the sentence ("Shardminds") when you switched the topic to "Shardminds' racial power", so it became understood as, "Shardminds... are less party friendly than Bastion." Since there wasn't a cue that we were switching topics to racial powers, standard English LC subconsciously led me to assume you were talking about someone named "Bastion".

Regardless, like I said above, there's no harm done. Thanks for the reply!


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## keterys (May 25, 2010)

In all fairness, I should have been clear I also didn't mean Bastian from Neverending Story 

Kalashtar is a very good race. Shardmind is a slightly better race. Personally, I'd have made it worse than it is. 

They both blow, say, Razorclaw Shifter, out of the water


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## firesnakearies (May 25, 2010)

I don't find them overpowered.

They'd be really good in a Dark Sun game, though.


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## mneme (May 25, 2010)

Shardminds are not overpowered.  They're the striker/controller psychic race, whereas Kalishtar are the defender/leader one.

Dwarves, however (particularly given melee classes based on Wis and Con)...


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## doctorhook (May 28, 2010)

mneme said:


> Shardminds are not overpowered.  They're the striker/controller psychic race, whereas Kalishtar are the defender/leader one.
> 
> Dwarves, however (particularly given melee classes based on Wis and Con)...



I don't buy that. I'm supposed to believe that races were designed for specific roles? (I can see  how that's true indirectly: races were designed for specific classes -- or vice versa -- and those classes have roles, but that's not the same as above.) And if that's true, it's stupid. Why should Kalashtar characters, for example, be unable to succeed in an entire *role*? 

Incidentally, Shardminds seem to make pretty good Leaders too, both as Bards and as Artificers.


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## mneme (May 28, 2010)

doctorhook said:


> I don't buy that. I'm supposed to believe that races were designed for specific roles?




Designed?  Maybe.

But different races have different powers/features/racial feats (above and beyond their stat pairings -- which tend to suit them to specific classes).  These powers and features will tend to give the race a tendency towards specific roles, as a +striker feature is better for strikers, a +leader feature is better for leaders, etc.  This doesn't mean that a bit of some feature isn't useful out of role -- of course it is.  But it's even -more- useful in-role.

Take, for instance, the Halfling Second Chance feature.  This is a +defender power, at heart.  Yes, it's useful for everyone -- it really is.  But it's even -more- useful if you're receiving enough attacks every encounter to use it every encounter, and you've got sky-high defenses and will go 1/3 of the fight before you first get hit -and- have a very good chance of nullifying an attack with it.  Characters with very low defenses don't benefit much from a "second chance" -- they're much better off with features that let  them stay out of harm's way entirely.  But defenders?  Oh, yeah.

So look at the shardmind's major features:

Int & Cha: +Bard, +Warlock, +Wizard, +Psion
Int & Wis: +Wizard, +Invoker, Artificer, Shaman, Avenger

Shard Swarm: Mobility and combat advantage.  +striker (movement is a striker thing, so is combat advantage); +controller (getting out of dodge)

Telepathy: +leader (more or less)

Crystaline Mind: more or less +defender, but psychic damage isn't that common.

Liberating Shard Swarm: +defender

Psychic Focus +striker (more damage), +controller (more damage to lots of people, controllers have the most psychic damage)

Warding Shard Swarm: +everyone (AC is good for everyone, though it's -better- for defenders).

The biggest features here are pretty clearly Psychic Focus and Shard Swarm -- so I'd peg them as striker/controller major, with a minor in defending, but I don't think even with flexible stats that there's a defender that fits them perfectly.  Swordmage or Paladin could work, but they've got few features that are useful for leaders (telepathy, ok, what else?) aside from their stats, and their stats are bad for defenders.

Of course, in paragon and epic, most of their feats are +Defender or +Leader.  Can't have everything.

Now, lets look at Kalishtar:

Wis+Cha: +Bard, +Cleric, +Ardent, +Paladin

Bastion of Mental Clarity: +Defender, +Leader

Telepathy: +Leader

Dual Soul: +Defender

Feats:

Clarity of Spirit: +Leader, +Defender

Dual Mind Strength: +Striker, +Controller (but really good with any psionic class)

Group Mindlink: +Leader

Quori Shield: +Defender (same issues as the shardmind resist, though

And they've got some good feats for nearly every class--many of which don't suit their stat pairs.  Go fig.

And in epic: Quori Desperation: +Defender


A quick perusal implies that while either can really do any role (Kalishtar monks look lovely aside from that minor lack of a Dex bonus), that Kalishtar are best suited as defenders and leaders, whereas shardminds are best suited as strikers and controllers.


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