# Game of Thrones Season 8 Episode 4 "The Last of the Starks"



## jonesy (May 6, 2019)

Ambushed by Euron "I Am The Storm" Greyjoy:

- Balon (So sorry, but you are not the storm. Fly away now.)

- Yara at the Kingsmoot. (So sorry, but you are not the queen of the Ironborn. Run away now.)

- Yara and her fleet. (Say hello to The Storm, niece. RIP the Sandsnakes.)

- Theon with her fleet. (If Theon had been a full Ironborn he'd have worn full battle armor, and wouldn't have been able to swim away anyways, yes? Has the show even told the viewers yet why they are called the 'Ironborn', or why they are so feared in sea battles? No? It's the armor, people. They're supposed to be crazy enough to wear full battle armor into a sea battle. Funny thing to note here is that I looked at the wiki for the show and they don't even mention the armor. The very reason why they are the Ironborn doesn't even exist on the show. Go figure.)

- Unsullied (So sorry, but apparently Casterly Rock isn't worth anything anymore. Walk away now.)

- Jamie (So sorry about your relationship. How does she like it? No no, we'll talk later.)

- Cersei (Sorry about the elephants, but now we smash or I sail away, yes?)

- Dany and her fleet. (So sorry about your lack of strategy or tactics. RIP Rhaegal and Missandei. By the way, how was Rhaegal so stunningly slow to react? He wasn't slow at all in the fight against Viserion. Was he injured in his plot armor? And did Dany's fleet really have no scouts at all? Does she even know what a scout is? Back at Meereen she was doing the scouting by herself with her most valuable aides by her side so I guess she really doesn't. Also: man who fights for gold can't afford to get scouts of his own? The Second Sons could have killed their entire opposition leadership in one fell swoop if they'd had just one scout there to spot them.)

- The Viewers. (You think Euron is a thoraway character who is going to get killed quickly? Guess again. So sorry about our lack of character development screentime.)


So yeah. People complain about how Dorne was injured by the lack of character development on the show, and I just look at the poor Ironborn and shake my head.

- - -

Speaking of scouts, has ANYONE on the show heard about them? In the books, Robb beat Jamie at Whispering Wood because he shot down all of the Lannister ravens and killed his scouts before they could alert Jamie's main force about the outriders Robb led in to surprise him. The show makes it seem like Robb teleported 18000 men right into Jamie's formation without anyone spotting them. "By the time they knew what was happening it had already happened", indeed.

Then at Blackwater one single wildfire-ship manages to ambush Stannis and his fleet. That could have been stopped with just one scout ship. Just one. In the books the scale of that battle was so much more massive than the one shown on the show that the wildfire was just one part of the defensive tactics.

At the battle of Oxcross Robb seems to be doing the scouting by himself and a small force (and in a rare sighting, Ghost), which does sort of fit into his character since that's how he got Jamie. Robb is a master tactician (and bad at strategy).

Stannis taking out the wildlings gets a pass from me, since those were all mercenaries on horseback and the wildlings on the show don't seem to have any horses (and the wargs they have on lookout would all be looking at Castle Black. By the way, that one guy on the show who was going into birds is NOT a warg. The show doesn't even know what that word means. A warg skinchanges into wolves or dogs).

The battle at Meereen basically had two opposing forces advancing on it from two different directions, but the unsullied already there being completely surprised by the slavers still seems funny.

The fleet carrying the Unsullied to take Casterly Rock had no scouts at all, it seems.

And the Tyrell army that Jamie destroys is a total non-issue. Jamie claims to have used tactics he learned from Robb at Whispering Wood. Shame that he couldn't tell Dany about that when they finally go after King's Landing.

Jamie getting surprised by Dany is sort of understandable, since he already sent his main force up ahead to King's Landing with the gold and the remainder had just _walked across the whole damn continent_.


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## MarkB (May 6, 2019)

I only see one way for the rulership issue to be resolved peacefully, and it was hinted at during the farewell scenes at Winterfell. It would be a fitting full-circle resolution for Jon.

The anti-dragon ballistae function ridiculously well as anti-ship weapons. They're hand-cranked, so to deliver that much punch they'd need minutes of work by multiple men to re-arm, and yet seemingly they're instantly ready to fire upon the fleet after loosing a volley at Danaerys.


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## jonesy (May 6, 2019)

MarkB said:


> The anti-dragon ballistae function ridiculously well as anti-ship weapons. They're hand-cranked, so to deliver that much punch they'd need minutes of work by multiple men to re-arm, and yet seemingly they're instantly ready to fire upon the fleet after loosing a volley at Danaerys.



Bronn did use one all by himself, and re-armed it rather quickly. The ones used against Dany's fleet do have whole teams using them.


I just realized that I accidentally said that Ghost was with Robb. Shame.


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## Zardnaar (May 6, 2019)

They are bigger than IRL. Beats me if you could make them that size but probably not.


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## MarkB (May 6, 2019)

jonesy said:


> Bronn did use one all by himself, and re-armed it rather quickly. The ones used against Dany's fleet do have whole teams using them.
> 
> 
> I just realized that I accidentally said that Ghost was with Robb. Shame.




Yeah, but think about it. They strike with enough force to blast through one side of a ship and out the other, taking a large chunk of the hull with them. That means that you have to pump all the kinetic energy it would require to do that into the mechanism by turning a handle. Doing that should take two people the same amount of effort as it would require for them to hack their way through those hulls with axes.


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## pukunui (May 6, 2019)

This says it all really ...


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## Zardnaar (May 6, 2019)

Beats me why Cersei didn't shoot Dany and/or the dragon. 

 I don't mind idiotic characters but some of them were presented as intelligent in earlier seasons ( Varys, Tyrion, Cersei is cunning, Little finger etc).


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## jonesy (May 6, 2019)

pukunui said:


> This says it all really ...
> 
> View attachment 106250



That scene made the least sense of everything this season. After all that Jon and Ghost went through _that_ is what the show leaves us with?


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## Maxperson (May 6, 2019)

jonesy said:


> - Dany and her fleet. (So sorry about your lack of strategy or tactics. RIP Rhaegal and Missandei. By the way, how was Rhaegal so stunningly slow to react? He wasn't slow at all in the fight against Viserion. Was he injured in his plot armor? And did Dany's fleet really have no scouts at all? Does she even know what a scout is? Back at Meereen she was doing the scouting by herself with her most valuable aides by her side so I guess she really doesn't. Also: man who fights for gold can't afford to get scouts of his own? The Second Sons could have killed their entire opposition leadership in one fell swoop if they'd had just one scout there to spot them.)




Ballistae simply are not that accurate at that distance, especially against moving targets, and even more especially when fired from a moving boat that is going over waves.  That scene was almost as bad as the Charge of the Night Brigade from last episode.

There's also no way those ships could round the island and get into position to spot and then fire upon the flying dragons without being spotted from the air.  It's a frigging fleet!

There was quite a bit more magic travel, too.


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## jonesy (May 6, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> jonesy said:
> 
> 
> > - Dany and her fleet. (So sorry about your lack of strategy or tactics. RIP Rhaegal and Missandei. By the way, how was Rhaegal so stunningly slow to react? He wasn't slow at all in the fight against Viserion. Was he injured in his plot armor? And did Dany's fleet really have no scouts at all? Does she even know what a scout is? Back at Meereen she was doing the scouting by herself with her most valuable aides by her side so I guess she really doesn't. Also: man who fights for gold can't afford to get scouts of his own? The Second Sons could have killed their entire opposition leadership in one fell swoop if they'd had just one scout there to spot them.)
> ...



There's a general problem on the show with the incredible accuracy of bows overall. Last episode we got a scene where Arya shooting a wight threatening Sandor was treated as an amazing shot. But was it really?

Jamie's archers were able to hit a flying dragon. Theon was shooting ravens out of the air at the Twins. Ramsay just generally. All of those are elite archers, but have we actually seen anyone doing badly with a bow? Aside from Edmure, which was played for laughs.


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## MarkB (May 6, 2019)

jonesy said:


> There's a general problem on the show with the incredible accuracy of bows overall. Last episode we got a scene where Arya shooting a wight threatening Sandor was treated as an amazing shot. But was it really?
> 
> Jamie's archers were able to hit a flying dragon. Theon was shooting ravens out of the air at the Twins. Ramsay just generally. All of those are elite archers, but have we actually seen anyone doing badly with a bow? Aside from Edmure, which was played for laughs.




I had the same issue with the Hobbit movies. In Lord of the Rings Legolas's accuracy is at least played as being exceptional, but during the scenes like the barrel-run battle, both elves and dwarves manage ridiculous shots and moves routinely enough that they coordinate them with each other in the full expectation of being able to pull them off 100% reliably, and Bard is considered a failure by the folks of Laketown for having been unable to hit a fast-moving dragon in a firestorm using a fixed-emplacement ballista.


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## jonesy (May 6, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Beats me why Cersei didn't shoot Dany and/or the dragon.



Divide and conquer? If either Jon or Dany dies, the other becomes stronger as most of the disputes between their sides evaporate.


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## Ralif Redhammer (May 6, 2019)

My wife and I were shouting at Jon for just walking away from Ghost. But I imagine that it probably would’ve been more expensive to have a real person interact with a CGI wolf, so they did it that way to cut costs.

I actually liked this episode quite a bit. To me, it got back to the feel of the earlier seasons, with Daenerys having been moving towards a more morally questionable stance, and terrible things happening with a strong emotional impact.

Also, I can’t help but feel that the scene of Varys coughing on the beach, his legs clearly visible, was a direct jibe at the whole hilarious-and-ridiculous “Varys is a Merman” fan theory.

With Rhaegal dead and Ghost staying far to the north, I suspect the series is slowly moving towards the death of magic in Westeros. The White Walkers are gone. Both red priests are dead. I’m betting on Jon dying for good by the end, along with Drogon. Qyburn and The Mountain, too.


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## MarkB (May 6, 2019)

I'm betting on Jon re-taking his oath to the Night Watch, renouncing all claim to the throne, and heading back to his true home to become King in the North.

The _real_ North, beyond the Wall, outside the Seven Kingdoms, beyond Danaerys's realm. And probably half the people of the northern kingdoms will follow him.


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## jonesy (May 6, 2019)

In the words of my father:

"You know the real reason why Arya said no to Gendry is because she's all about the reality of the situation. Dany can't make him a lord. She's always assuming things are true before they are. She's not the queen, and it's possible she never will be."


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## Gladius Legis (May 6, 2019)

jonesy said:


> Divide and conquer? If either Jon or Dany dies, the other becomes stronger as most of the disputes between their sides evaporate.




I doubt Cersei knows who Jon really is at this point.


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## Gladius Legis (May 6, 2019)

Apparently Winterfell has a Starbucks.

... and this is honestly the least stupid thing about the whole episode.


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## MarkB (May 6, 2019)

jonesy said:


> In the words of my father:
> 
> "You know the real reason why Arya said no to Gendry is because she's all about the reality of the situation. Dany can't make him a lord. She's always assuming things are true before they are. She's not the queen, and it's possible she never will be."




That's assuming that Arya gives a damn whether he's a lord or not. That aside, I appreciate the sentiment - lots of titles being handed out as prizes before the contest is won.


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## jonesy (May 6, 2019)

Gladius Legis said:


> jonesy said:
> 
> 
> > Divide and conquer? If either Jon or Dany dies, the other becomes stronger as most of the disputes between their sides evaporate.
> ...



She knows he is the nominal leader of the North. And she should know from rumours and spies that there are divided loyalties among their people as to who's really in charge?

We know that they have spies in the north as Qyburn knew really fast about the army of the dead heading towards Winterfell.


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## Maxperson (May 7, 2019)

MarkB said:


> I'm betting on Jon re-taking his oath to the Night Watch, renouncing all claim to the throne, and heading back to his true home to become King in the North.
> 
> The _real_ North, beyond the Wall, outside the Seven Kingdoms, beyond Danaerys's realm. And probably half the people of the northern kingdoms will follow him.




I can see them splitting the North and South, but not his re-taking of the oath.  There's no wall and no White Walkers, so no need for the watch, and a king needs heirs.


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## pukunui (May 7, 2019)

Bran really needs to *do* something already! What’s the point of him having all those magic powers if he isn’t going to use them?


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## Zardnaar (May 7, 2019)

pukunui said:


> Bran really needs to *do* something already! What’s the point of him having all those magic powers if he isn’t going to use them?




 I think that is kind of the point. Brans story arch is really done though.


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## Imaculata (May 7, 2019)

A ballista can have a huge range, but there's no way they would be that accurate against a moving target at that distance, and that you'd be able to fire them before Dany spotting that entire fleet. Euron's fleet basically materialized out of nowhere. That's not how that works. Plus you need time to get into the right position with the ship, and aim that thing. But he basically shot the dragon before coming into view. That is plot convenience at its worst.

And its not like there aren't easy ways to write around that. I had a big surprise attack in my pirate campaign, that came from a dense fog bank. A small enemy fleet waited on the foggy side of an island, to surprise the players. But even then it took time to get into firing range. So the enemy ships used the wind direction to get the advantage on the players.

It also feels like we've reached the point in this series where everything has become very predictable. I'm still hoping they'll pull a big twist from their hat, but so far the plot has been very by the numbers.


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## Zardnaar (May 7, 2019)

Imaculata said:


> A ballista can have a huge range, but there's no way they would be that accurate against a moving target at that distance, and that you'd be able to fire them before Dany spotting that entire fleet. Euron's fleet basically materialized out of nowhere. That's not how that works. Plus you need time to get into the right position with the ship, and aim that thing. But he basically shot the dragon before coming into view. That is plot convenience at its worst.
> 
> And its not like there aren't easy ways to write around that. I had a big surprise attack in my pirate campaign, that came from a dense fog bank. A small enemy fleet waited on the foggy side of an island, to surprise the players. But even then it took time to get into firing range. So the enemy ships used the wind direction to get the advantage on the players.
> 
> It also feels like we've reached the point in this series where everything has become very predictable. I'm still hoping they'll pull a big twist from their hat, but so far the plot has been very by the numbers.




 Well apparently there is a twist but its terrible. Last 3 basic plot points have been leaked, I've avoided reading about it but have heard bits and pieces. The show started going down hill season 5, picked up a bit with 6 and then fell off a cliff with the pacing and stuff being a mess. THis episode loved the 1st half or 2/3rds felt like an older season, then it kind of got silly.


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## Maxperson (May 7, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> I think that is kind of the point. Brans story arch is really done though.




In the show, sure.  In the books(if anymore ever get written) I'm convinced it will be bigger.  His abilities ruin stories.  If he actually used them, Cersei would never stand a chance, because he would know where her forces are and what she is planning at all times, and then convey that info to his side.  They have to make him a lump in order to create any suspense in the story. 

A simple, "Hey Jaime, Bron is coming up the North Road in 2 hours and 12 minutes with a crossbow to kill you and Tyrion" would have been useful, but destroyed any suspense regarding what will Bron do.  The same with the ambush at the island.


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## Maxperson (May 7, 2019)

Imaculata said:


> It also feels like we've reached the point in this series where everything has become very predictable. I'm still hoping they'll pull a big twist from their hat, but so far the plot has been very by the numbers.




I'm also tired of all the main cast death fake-outs.  It's basically, fake, fake, fake, fake, death of minor character, fake, fake, fake, death of another minor character.  They've taking the Martin's willingness to kill major character off and are using it as a weapon against viewers.


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## Ralif Redhammer (May 7, 2019)

“Hey Jaime, Bron is coming up the North Road in 2 hours and 12 minutes with a crossbow to…actually, I’ve no idea what he’s coming up here to do or why. I don't think he does, either.”

But seriously, my take on Bran’s powers is that with the ability to see all of time, it’s like trying to sift through sand to see something specific. Also, maybe since there’s some sort of tie to the weirwoods, it gets harder to see stuff when you go further south? Or you know, he didn't see it because it's what the writers needed to happen.




Maxperson said:


> A simple, "Hey Jaime, Bron is coming up the North Road in 2 hours and 12 minutes with a crossbow to kill you and Tyrion" would have been useful, but destroyed any suspense regarding what will Bron do.  The same with the ambush at the island.


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## jonesy (May 7, 2019)

[video=youtube;ahoHDU0T44I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahoHDU0T44I[/video]

Ouch.


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## jonesy (May 7, 2019)

The new scorpions are far more powerful than I initially thought. Having watched the sea scene again it looks like Tyrion's ship wasn't even being targeted. It was anchored behind the ship with Grey Worm, and it looks to be getting hit _through_ the other ship. That's a railgun.


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## Istbor (May 7, 2019)

Yeah. Even I feel they are slipping. Those scorpions are as strong as the writer's needed them to be, and I guess they need to try to push Danny to the edge to do something for some sort of suspense and confrontational drama llama. 

Ugh.


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## lowkey13 (May 7, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Zardnaar (May 8, 2019)

Whelp
https://www.washingtonpost.com/arts...ame-thrones-right-now/?utm_term=.b4e9db46e275


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## Maxperson (May 8, 2019)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> “Hey Jaime, Bron is coming up the North Road in 2 hours and 12 minutes with a crossbow to…actually, I’ve no idea what he’s coming up here to do or why. I don't think he does, either.”
> 
> But seriously, my take on Bran’s powers is that with the ability to see all of time, it’s like trying to sift through sand to see something specific. Also, maybe since there’s some sort of tie to the weirwoods, it gets harder to see stuff when you go further south? Or you know, he didn't see it because it's what the writers needed to happen.




He didn't have any difficulty at all when looking in on his aunt giving birth to Jon and other things.  Looking in on what his enemies are doing is something he would be doing.........a lot.  He'd have seen both events.


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## Maxperson (May 8, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> So, my workplace (where I am, by a small margin, but still the nerdiest) is definitely all-in on Game of Thrones.
> 
> The kind of place where we all got together for a massive party for the premiere.
> 
> ...




I'm where you are I think.  I'm pretty irritated at the really stupid scenes like the dragon death and night charge of the Dothraki, but I'm not hating the shows or anything.  Nor am I loving them.  

Most of the hate that I've seen comes from changing Daenerys' character and sliding her into the Mad Queen seat.  Her basically saying that she will sacrifice 10,000 innocent people in order to get what she wants is a pretty big slide from where she was in Meereen.


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## Zardnaar (May 8, 2019)

Days always had an element of mad queen the people she was killing were the bad guys so it's alright.

 Main problem is the pacing though.


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## pukunui (May 8, 2019)

Looks to me like GoT is going to go the way of the X-Files and Lost and have a crappy ending. So disappointing.


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## Imaculata (May 8, 2019)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> But seriously, my take on Bran’s powers is that with the ability to see all of time, it’s like trying to sift through sand to see something specific. Also, maybe since there’s some sort of tie to the weirwoods, it gets harder to see stuff when you go further south? Or you know, he didn't see it because it's what the writers needed to happen.




Originally in the books, Bran was able to see through the faces of the weirdwood trees. That was how he was able to see his father during the events of the first book. I don't think there is a weirwood at King's Landing, thus explaining the limits to his sight. But it has not been established well in the show. I think after episode 3 we won't see Bran do anything useful any more in the show.

The show seems to struggle with bending the plot and its characters towards the place where they want it to end, which explains why a lot of viewers seem annoyed with how some of the characters are behaving. It feels all rather forced. I wonder if this is where George RR Martin actually intends to take his story, or if this ending is show only. Heck, maybe George has no idea how he wants it to end, and gave the show runners card blanche to do whatever.

*My predictions:*

-A happy ending doesn't seem likely at this point. The show will probably end with the death of Jon, Dany or both.
-Dany's vision showed a destroyed throne room, and Bran's vision showed a shadow of a dragon over King's Landing. These things will probably come to pass in these last two episodes.
-Clegane Bowl has to happen, that's a given. But I'll take it a step further. I predict that we'll see the Hound perform some kind of miracle tied to the Lord of Light. Maybe he will conjure up a burning sword of his own, or maybe he'll bring someone back from the dead.
-Jamie is going to die, as is Cersei. I feel the story should end with Jamie's hands around Cersei's neck, but it is also likely they will die in each other's arms. 
-I think Jamie may have a personal confrontation/fight with Euron. They've already set up their rivalry in the show.
-I wonder if there is going to be some kind of pay off regarding some of the characters that Cersei has locked up in the black cells underneath King's Landing.
-I wonder if the secret passage that Tyrion used to escape the Red Keep (after killing his father) will come into play to break into the Red Keep.


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## jonesy (May 8, 2019)

Imaculata said:


> Originally in the books, Bran was able to see through the faces of the weirdwood trees. That was how he was able to see his father during the events of the first book. I don't think there is a weirwood at King's Landing, thus explaining the limits to his sight. But it has not been established well in the show. I think after episode 3 we won't see Bran do anything useful any more in the show.



To continue on this line of thought:
In the books the trees were supposed to be windows that the Old Gods looked through to see what was happening in the world. That's why marriage ceremonies in the North took place beside them. Greenseers like Bran used that same method to see things. I don't remember exactly, but I think it wasn't like a exact window analogy, but more like they could see the surrounding "land" in a dreamlike way. Like, not just what was in the line of sight of the eyes in the tree. But I do remember that they said something like 'the trees have no understanding of time so through them you can see the past and the present'.

Then the Andals came and cut down the trees in the south, so the connection there was lost. No service providers for the greenseers.

Edit: since the show seems to have had this idea in the beginning that there weren't going to be any flashbacks, this whole thing present a problem in that Bran shouldn't have been able to see what happened in the past of the south? But since none of this has been said on the show, Bran's powers have really escalated beyond what they should have been, and no explanations given since Bran is a robot now I guess.

Edit: the only person on the show who actually knew what the hell he was talking about and who could have explained everything ended up dying right there on the Three Eyed Raven's doorstep. Jojen isn't even supposed to be dead yet (he had this whole prophecy about going home).


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## Mercurius (May 8, 2019)

My sense is that they've already laid the table for what will happen:

*Varis will betray Dany and suffer for it, probably eaten by Drogon.
*Jamie will confront, possibly kill, Cersei. Both will die. In flagrante delicto?
*Dany is becoming more villainous--they've made her less likeable for a couple seasons now, preparing us for her death. Anyhow, she isn't really "meant" to rule Westeros. She is a change agent, not a monarch in a time of peace.
*Jon will become ruler of the Seven Kingdoms. Tyrion will be his Hand.
*Sansa will become "Lady Stark," ruler of Winterfell and the North.
*The Hound will kill his brother and then sneak off and retire in a hut somewhere. Arya will visit him.
*Samwell will not die. Unfortunately (he's lost his novelty, imo).
*Arya will remain free and wild, going where she wills. There will be a spin-off series that chronicles her adventures.
*Tormund and Brienne will end up together, but she'll get sucked into a worm-hole and end up in a galaxy far, far away.
*After Dany dies, Drogon flies off back to Valyria. The season will end with him/her watching a clutch of dragon eggs hatch.


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## Joker (May 8, 2019)

From what I gather the twist coming is that Mengsk from Starcraft has been supplying Cersei's forces with cloaking tech found in Banshee craft and Ghost units.
He's also upgraded their ballista bolts with kevlar coated, tungsten wire-guided arrows. Magnetically accelerated, of course.

A bit fan-servicy but I'm looking forward to the Zerg descending en masse with the Protoss in tow.


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## Morrus (May 8, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> *Dany is becoming more villainous--they've made her less likeable for a couple seasons now, preparing us for her death.




She's always come across like that to me. She does not like it when people disagree with her, and is very happy to coldly mete out extreme punishments and executions.


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## Zardnaar (May 8, 2019)

I thought it was Yuri from Red Alert.


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## Maxperson (May 8, 2019)

Morrus said:


> She's always come across like that to me. She does not like it when people disagree with her, and is very happy to coldly mete out extreme punishments and executions.




That has been a change over time.  Initially she was fairly kind, burning the witch only after she murdered her unborn child and turning Drago into a vegetable.  Then she tried to avoid just killing the Masters as examples like her advisers suggested, even though they were behind the deaths of many of her people and more coming each day.  Later she started punishing people who stood against her with more and more easy.  This leap from punishing enemies into it's okay to murder 10,000 innocents in order to get what I want, is a rather large and sudden jump, though.


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## Istbor (May 8, 2019)

While I agree with Morus that there has always be a cold ruthlessness to Danny, we are just seeing it expressed more often. They are certainly setting her up to become more villainous or to lose her $**! and have to be dealt with. 

I don't know that Varys will feel any burn. That guy is good at getting out ahead of a bad time. I don't really blame him for not knowing about that Iron fleet ambush. I do blame the army in general for having not scouted at all and wonder how Danny didn't see a fleet of ships on such a nice clear day.


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## MarkB (May 8, 2019)

Istbor said:


> I don't know that Varys will feel any burn. That guy is good at getting out ahead of a bad time. I don't really blame him for not knowing about that Iron fleet ambush. I do blame the army in general for having not scouted at all and wonder how Danny didn't see a fleet of ships on such a nice clear day.




They were tucked round the side of the island. Which is no excuse - Dany's forces should have sent at least a fast ship or two to scout the place for occupying forces before the entire fleet dropped anchor.


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## Istbor (May 8, 2019)

MarkB said:


> They were tucked round the side of the island. Which is no excuse - Dany's forces should have sent at least a fast ship or two to scout the place for occupying forces before the entire fleet dropped anchor.




I recall the rock jutting up, and yeah, that is hardly an excuse. 

What is more, Danny then does a straight dive into these boats instead of winging around that rock to their rears and burning them out. What, are they going to aim through their own sails and rigging? They certainly aren't going to turn all of those ships around before that dragon could fly around behind them. 

Sigh...


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## pukunui (May 9, 2019)

Istbor said:


> I don't know that Varys will feel any burn. That guy is good at getting out ahead of a bad time.



But remember that Melisandre told him they would both die in Westeros.



Istbor said:


> What is more, Danny then does a straight dive into these boats instead of winging around that rock to their rears and burning them out. What, are they going to aim through their own sails and rigging? They certainly aren't going to turn all of those ships around before that dragon could fly around behind them.



She'd just witnessed Rhaegal die. I don't think she'd have been in the right frame of mind to think that tactically.


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## Maxperson (May 9, 2019)

pukunui said:


> But remember that Melisandre told him they would both die in Westeros.




Yep.  I feel like after the exchange between Tyrion and Varys, that Tyrion may be the one to kill Varys.  Varys will likely try to kill Daenerys and Tyrion definitely wants to keep her alive.


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## Istbor (May 9, 2019)

pukunui said:


> But remember that Melisandre told him they would both die in Westeros.
> 
> She'd just witnessed Rhaegal die. I don't think she'd have been in the right frame of mind to think that tactically.




That is an age old trope is all. Hero or villain too emotional to think clearly. That's not necessarily how humans work. Your body pumping you full of chemicals in a fight or flight situation doesn't make you an idiot.


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## lowkey13 (May 9, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## variant (May 9, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> That has been a change over time.  Initially she was fairly kind, burning the witch only after she murdered her unborn child and turning Drago into a vegetable.  Then she tried to avoid just killing the Masters as examples like her advisers suggested, even though they were behind the deaths of many of her people and more coming each day.  Later she started punishing people who stood against her with more and more easy.  This leap from punishing enemies into it's okay to murder 10,000 innocents in order to get what I want, is a rather large and sudden jump, though.




Burning someone alive is pretty terrible way to execute someone. I know most people just brushed it aside because it feels justified, but seriously. Jon Snow put an arrow in Mance Rayder to prevent his burning. Also, remember she didn't just do this as a form of execution either, she dreamed that walking into the fire while burning her would hatch dragon eggs. So blood magic.

Is season 2 she locked the two people in a vault to either suffocate or dehydrate to death. That's just torturing someone to death. Again, it was brushed aside by viewers because they betrayed a protagonist. If they deserved execution, she could have done it cleanly. 

In season 4 she crucified the masters which is definitely torturing someone to death, and she did it indiscriminately without finding out their guilt or innocence. For one, you don't commit an act of atrocity to punish an act of atrocity, and you don't punish people without finding out their guilt in the crime you punish them for. Once again, ignored by people because they were "evil slavers, and deserved whatever was coming to them" as I often heard.

In season 5 she fed random nobles to her dragons as a means to scare them in not being in the sons of the Harpy. She didn't even know if the person she fed to the dragons were apart of them or not, she just did it. She was even going to feed her allies to them. Again, people justified it because they were "evil former slavers and deserved whatever came to them".

In season 6 she killed two emissaries under parley for their crime of demanding her surrender in a war, which is what emissaries are there for. The book Fire & Blood tells us that not even Aegon the Conqueror would do something like this, and actively avoided it even when Dorne committed really atrocious things during wartime. This is again justified for the same reasons above.

In season 7 she burned two prisoners of war. When Robert rebelled, he took prisoners, and _after_ he was crowned, he gave them an option to kneel. The first instance of Daenerys applying her ruthlessness on Westerosi soil.

In the books, she's even worse. As you see in her mind she's very uncontrollably irrational in these moments, and often _regrets _her actions once she sees the consequences, but keeps doing them, and slowly as the books go on, she questions her actions less and less. I think the last atrocity we see her commit in the last book, she showed no remorse and that was when she ordered the torture of the innocent wineseller daughters in front of their father.

Daenerys also isn't the most honorable person either. She did trick the slave master to giving her the Unsullied while burning him alive, and stole the emissaries gold who brought gold as an offer for her to sail to Westeros and leave them alone.


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## variant (May 9, 2019)

The big difference with Daenerys now is that she's losing both the war and the people around, and we haven't seen how she reacts to such a situation. Her first inclination when anything has ever gone wrong has always been to burn cities and melt castles, only now there's no good voice of reason to tell her don't do that. Her advisors are now Tyrion whom she doesn't really trust, and Varys. If Varys is caught in treason, she won't trust anyone.


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## Ovinomancer (May 9, 2019)

A timely cartoon.


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## variant (May 10, 2019)

Yeah, the writing is terrible. Go back and look at the dialogue. In seasons 1-4, you have a much better dialogue closer to the books with idioms and phrases of Westeros. This was all replaced with modern dialogue and idioms that should never be uttered by anyone in the show. You also have modern morals being injected into it, the best recent example is how Brienne is embarrassed to be a virgin. She's an unmarried noble lady, she would pride herself on her maiden status.


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## jonesy (May 10, 2019)

Oh boy..

Kit Harington was doing an interview on PopBuzz when he was asked to describe the season finale with one word and he blurts out "disappointing". He then quickly tried to take it back by saying epic instead, but his tone of voice didn't change.

Then Entertainment Tonight tried asking Emilia Clarke if she was happy with how things ended. She chuckles in a very uncomfortable and embarrassed way. She then goes and says "Best season ever", but again with the same akward tone.


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## Morrus (May 10, 2019)

variant said:


> You also have modern morals being injected into it, the best recent example is how Brienne is embarrassed to be a virgin. She's an unmarried noble lady, she would pride herself on her maiden status.




It’s Westeros. It’s not medieval England. She would pride herself on whatever the writers say she prides herself on in that fictional culture.


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## Zardnaar (May 10, 2019)

jonesy said:


> Oh boy..
> 
> Kit Harington was doing an interview on PopBuzz when he was asked to describe the season finale with one word and he blurts out "disappointing". He then quickly tried to take it back by saying epic instead, but his tone of voice didn't change.
> 
> Then Entertainment Tonight tried asking Emilia Clarke if she was happy with how things ended. She chuckles in a very uncomfortable and embarrassed way. She then goes and says "Best season ever", but again with the same akward tone.




 I saw those clips and her tone of voice when she said best season ever was mocking. 

 Leaked spoilers are also out on of them was accurate apparently for episode 4 so if the other 2 are accurate apparently its terrible. 

 Season 5 is now no longer the worst season.


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## variant (May 11, 2019)

Morrus said:


> It’s Westeros. It’s not medieval England. She would pride herself on whatever the writers say she prides herself on in that fictional culture.




Yes, it's Westeros which is _heavily_ grounded in Medieval England. She is not embarrassed to be a maiden in the books. The writers have gone completely against the books in most regards to culture and language since they left the books behind at season 5. There's a reason the show writers left out the "In the name of of the Maid I charge you to protect all women" part of the knighting ceremony.


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## TarionzCousin (May 11, 2019)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> With Rhaegal dead and Ghost staying far to the north, I suspect the series is slowly moving towards the death of magic in Westeros. The White Walkers are gone. Both red priests are dead. I’m betting on Jon dying for good by the end, along with Drogon. Qyburn and The Mountain, too.



That's quite a few characters dying in only two episodes. 

Oh, wait: what show is this again?


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## Morrus (May 11, 2019)

*Game of Thrones Season 8 Episode 4 &quot;The Last of the Starks&quot;*



variant said:


> Yes, it's Westeros which is _heavily_ grounded in Medieval England.




Westeros is not even vaguely like medieval England.

If also has a very rough 1000-year band tech level which ranges from pre-Roman Britons to the Renaissance, as do it’s many varied social/political themes. 

So I’m not really on board with an argument which requires me to pick one specific aspect of “medieval England” and claim that Westeros not adopting that is a failure of the show. I’d pick dragons first.


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## Zardnaar (May 11, 2019)

George based Westeros on England.  War of the Roses, House Lannister/House Lancaster.

 I don't think her reaction us the biggest problem this season though. Pacing, storytelling, execution.


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