# Evasion / Improved Evasion Question



## FuzzyWookie (Mar 30, 2005)

At first glance this question seemed silly, and it still may be.  But sometimes the rules we assume are correct and the actual rules are very different.  

I've searched the PHB, DMG and FAQ for this and found nothing (might be looking in the wrong spot).

Question:  Does Evasion gained from one class (say a 2nd level Monk) and Evasion gained from a second class (say a 2nd level Rogue) "stack" to become Improved Evasion?

My first reaction was "Yes, of course it does!" But, upon reading any occurance of Evasion in the book I could find, there was no mention that they stack like Uncanny Dodge from a Barbarian and Rogue do to become Imp. Uncanny Dodge.  The section of Multiclass Characters in the PHB only gives the example of Uncanny Dodge and makes no mention of Evasion.

Answers with Page numbers would be most helpful.

Thanks
Fuzzy (Lurker Extraordinaire)


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Mar 30, 2005)

Nope.  They don't stack in such a way.


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## Deset Gled (Mar 30, 2005)

I agree with Patryn, as written they don't stack.  Allowing them to stack would be a pretty logical and balanced house rule, though.  The only arguement that I can see against allowing it (besides the rules) is that it encourages multiclassing, which some people might not like.


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## Ceska (Mar 30, 2005)

I dunno if I got the question right, but some PrC´s allow the Evasion ability from a core class and the PrC to stack. A quick example is the Halfling Outrider (p.39) and the master Thrower (p.58) in CW /first book at hand...   )


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## FuzzyWookie (Mar 30, 2005)

Thanks for your quick responses.   That makes sense.  Allowing them to stack, a 2nd level Monk/2nd level Rogue to receive Imp. Evasion much sooner than a 9th level Monk or 10th level Rogue could.  Makse all the sense in the world.  

I knew my brain wasn't working.  

Thanks again.


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## Plane Sailing (Mar 30, 2005)

Uncanny dodge from different classes will stack (see Shadowdancer prestige class for an illustration of this), but I've not read anything that enables evasion to stack.

If you think about it, Uncanny dodge stacking isn't too bad because it is difficult to multiclass to get Improved Uncanny dodge more quickly than sticking within your class.

Improved Evasion isn't normally granted until 9th+ level, and allowing stacking would allow a 5th level character to get it. 

Cheers


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Mar 30, 2005)

Deset Gled said:
			
		

> I agree with Patryn, as written they don't stack.  Allowing them to stack would be a pretty logical and balanced house rule, though.  The only arguement that I can see against allowing it (besides the rules) is that it encourages multiclassing, which some people might not like.




The only problem I see with this is that Improved Evasion is usually a pretty high-level ability.  Rogues can get it at 10th level, and Monks at 9th.

A Rogue / Monk can get it at 4th.


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## Lasher Dragon (Mar 30, 2005)

What would be your opinions on the cost of a ring that if someone already has evasion, would grant improved evasion?


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## FuzzyWookie (Mar 30, 2005)

Ceska said:
			
		

> I dunno if I got the question right, but some PrC´s allow the Evasion ability from a core class and the PrC to stack. A quick example is the Halfling Outrider (p.39) and the master Thrower (p.58) in CW /first book at hand...   )





Thanks for your reply, but I was only thinking of core classes not PrCs.  PrCs allowing Evasion to stack makes sense as you would not receive the Imp. Evasion until, usually, 7th level.  But to get Imp. Evasion at 4th is just WAY to early. 

Thanks again.


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## Nifelhein (Mar 30, 2005)

I think you could rule that a multiclass combination would grant the improved evasion ability at the lowest level one of the classes gets it, still makes them stack but would not make them get t that soon.

Still a house rule though.


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## sullivan (Mar 30, 2005)

Nifelhein said:
			
		

> I think you could rule that a multiclass combination would grant the improved evasion ability at the lowest level one of the classes gets it, still makes them stack but would not make them get t that soon.
> 
> Still a house rule though.




Ya, effectively stacking class levels (like Uncanny Dodge levels do for PrCs) instead of just converting the second Evasion to Improved Evasion. That isn't a huge benefit, given the general slight multiclass downsides, and might be the only viable way 3+ class PC would get Improved Evasion. However there is still a bit of an issue early in that Rogue makes you choose it from a list of specials at a given level. I'd make the Improve Evasion optional to the PC, and if they took it take away that choice of that class special at the prescribed Rogue level if they didn't make it to Monk 9th first.

Complicated, yes. But if you are going to house rule sometimes things get a bit awkward.


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## Ridley's Cohort (Mar 31, 2005)

*I hate to play the Grinch but this is a very, very bad idea.*

If you are stacking up multiple classes/PrCs with Evasion, your Refl save is likely to be astronomical.

You are failing far fewer Refl saves than the straight Rogue, so balancewise I do not see you should get Improved Evasion at all.  Most likely your measly Evasion is good enough that you are taking less damage on average from Fireballs than a comparable Rogue who actually has Improved Evasion.

There is a price to be paid for a lack of focus.  Those special bonus Rogue feats are not a small thing.

If you remove the save stacking incentive to multiclassing I might be inclined to show some mercy.  Otherwise...suck it up.


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## UltimaGabe (Mar 31, 2005)

Lasher Dragon said:
			
		

> What would be your opinions on the cost of a ring that if someone already has evasion, would grant improved evasion?




If I remember correctly, there's a magic item in Relics & Rituals called the Circlet of Warning that grants such an ability. I can't remember the cost (since, if I recall correctly, the prices weren't even listed in the book), but you could probably do a search online to find it.


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## Arkhandus (Mar 31, 2005)

Lasher Dragon said:
			
		

> What would be your opinions on the cost of a ring that if someone already has evasion, would grant improved evasion?




Double or triple the cost of a common Ring of Evasion.


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## Gaiden (Mar 31, 2005)

I allow the second evasion to stack and become improved evasion.  The only problem at all balance wise is a monk/rogue.  I consider mettle to be about as powerful as improved evasion and with that available at 6th (where as improved evasion following my house rule is available at 4th) I am not too concerned.

As far as I know, it is definitely a house rule that allows 2 incidences of evasion to stack.  But seriously - if you want to to take 2 levels of rogue, and 2 levels of monk - have 1d6 S.A. dmg, a +2 BAB, fewer skills than a straight rogue, and less combat abilities than a straight monk - go right ahead.


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## Stalker0 (Mar 31, 2005)

I would say mettle is a lot weaker than improved evasion....there's are far fewer fort/will for half than reflex half spells.


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## Gaiden (Mar 31, 2005)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> I would say mettle is a lot weaker than improved evasion....there's are far fewer fort/will for half than reflex half spells.




You might be surprised.  It is not necessarily how many spells there are but how often those spells are used.  Even if there was just one spell, if every opponent used it, it would warrant mettle as a powerful ability.  In my experience, many outsiders of unholy blight, many mages use phantasmal killer, disintegrate and destruction are used by high level mages/clerics often, etc.  Moreover, evasion is fairly common meaning that if there is a non-reflex based damaging spell, it will usually be used more often than a comparable reflex save spell.

I played RttToEE and took over a friend's character who had Mettle.  The ability was invaluable.  I can't count the number of times it wound up saving his life.  In fact, what I noticed was that in that setting there were few encounters where evasion would have been useful.  Of course this is biased considering we were fighting priests and not mages, but never the less.

I am not saying mettle is more powerful than improved evasion but based on number of times used, mettle has to be up there near improved evasion in usefulness.


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