# Final Fantasy Zero: Design Diary continued



## Mark Causey (Aug 13, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget asked, and now receives.

This thread is opened to discuss the ongoing creation of a variant ruleset designed to bring forth the flavor of the game series that some of us find very integral and inspirational to our roleplaying experiences, Final Fantasy.

I guess I'll start.

How have you gone about setting up rules that reinforce your premise of "saving of the world and the examination of the characters" versus the standard one of kill, loot, sell, equip, reset? 

Are there parts of the FF series that you don't think will work in to your system? Or have there been elements you've put on the back burner, to work on later?

What are you currently working on? Will you feel comfortable giving us your current alpha material for review or discussion? Can we help, or should it be more of a solo project?


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## NewLifeForm (Aug 13, 2005)

*I think I've been waiting for this all my life...*

Or at least since I read it!

 

And now, a happy rant (with some regular rant stuff thrown in)...

I must say that I am duely impressed by what I have seen so far. I have always been a big fan of the Final Fantasy series, though strangely, not the games themselves so much. I love the look, the feel and atmosphere and the storylines much more then the gameplay, mainly because I am less of a video/computer game lover and more drawn to Table-Top RPGs.

A lot of the components of D&D and similar role playing games could benefit from a more computer game approach. The skill trees in some of the FF games for example, which include powers and spell-like abilities, are a very interesting and flexible approach to making each character unique without loading them up with gear. You see some of this in the Exalted RPG by White Wolf.

One computer game I do play and love is World of Warcraft. While gear and magic items do play a part in your character's effectiveness (especially for the Warrior), each and every character can do something cool that is needed to handle the larger opponents.

I've been seeing more and more reference to the fact that 3E and 3.5 have made the PCs into piles of magic items with modifiers. I agree to some extent, but what bugs me most is that the innovation of feats is largely the cause. I imagined feats differently when they were first described and before the game came out. I pictured them more varied and giving players things that would really make them stand out and seem like gifted heroes. At first level 8 out of ten players take either power attack, the starting arrow feat or perhaps one other. Why is there only one starting arrow feat? Why not 3? Why not a few different feats that give abilities (absolute time sense, well connected/noble birth, expert caster/reduced casting time) instead of +1 this, +1 that. 

FFZ seems like a really good approach to solving many of these issues while at the same time tying the feats and abilities directly to the characters story and the world he/she/it is in. I can't wait to see more of this. I would especially like to see the FFZ magic system if it can handle the stylings of Red Mage, White Mage, Caller, etc., as the D&D magic system is my least favorite part of that game. I'd even like to help, though it seems KM is far more versed on the subject then I am. Need some anime style fan art?   

And now the biggest praise I can give any product...based on what I've seen so far, if it were a $40 hardcover RPG book, I'd buy two!*

Good luck and keep on going,
NewLifeForm

*As the GM of my group I tend to buy 2 copies of most games if I buy them at all. Why? Mainly it's one for me (which I hide away in the house somewhere and pull out when I'm working on my campaign) and another for the players to look at during play.


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## I'm A Banana (Aug 14, 2005)

Thanks a lot for the scads of praise. It really helps me when I'm staring lines of wealth by level charts in the face. 



> How have you gone about setting up rules that reinforce your premise of "saving of the world and the examination of the characters" versus the standard one of kill, loot, sell, equip, reset?




This is a question with a BIG answer. Let's say it starts with the DM structure of the game. Though I'm starting with player information, FFZ gives crazy love to DM's in setting up a unique kind of feel. And it does so in more detail than the core DMG. See, 3e was definately cautious about not telling particular DM's that they're "playing the game wrong" if they play it differently. FFZ, on the other hand, is not shy about telling DM's how to get what they want out of the game. And if they're playinng FFZ, there's a solid chance they want a table-top game that plays something like a Final Fantasy game. So advice includes story structure, villain design, monster placement, job and tribe choices...in effect, it helps you to make selections for your game that reinforce a particular theme, depending on the campaign you're going for. And how every encounter should reinforce the ideas that are central to your campaign. In FFZ, there are no truly "random" encounters. Every monster has a motive to exist, and a cause behind its violent attacks.  So that random ogre ambush on the side of the road doesn't just exist to roll some dice around -- it exists to show, for instance, how a typical giantish society operates. And later in the game, as you become diplomatic emmisarries to the giants, this ambush becomes important material for your characters to know.

Aside from solid and reliable DM advice (which I'm rediculously proud of -- making DM's think extensively about every die roll they ask the players to make), there is the fact that character choices come from the concepts. Mechanics are chosen to support these ideas. When you get a +1 to attack, the origin and development of your character and the world is expanded on. There is a reason you are better than you were beyond "I beat up more goblins." For some D&D games that would be too much micro-management, but FFZ liberates players and DM's to consider this kind of thing, because the measurable powers of the character are largely accounted for in the job. If you're not managing equipment and assigning various bonses, that's an extra few minutes in play that you have to build relationships and explore motives. This is especially important for the DM, who has to crunch the most numbers anyway. The mechanics of FFZ have been simplified as much as possible -- there's even an option for completely abstract combat (for the best videogame feel). When playing an FF game, number-crunching is something the computer does for you. In playing FFZ, number-crunching is what you do before you get to the table, more or less. 

Combine that with multiple characters, easy resurrection, and (from the DM's side) story structure, building alternate worlds, making the heroes heroic, "glossing over the boring parts," sidequest and main-quest structures, and you've got something that isn't about getting a huge bonus (or at least, a huge bonus is kind of pointless when a pretty big bonus gets the job done just as easily), and is more about the characters and the world, and not so much about the fights and the stuff.



> Are there parts of the FF series that you don't think will work in to your system? Or have there been elements you've put on the back burner, to work on later?




The biggest struggle is one between versimilitude and ease of play. Like, I referenced the abstract combat system above. This works great in a videogame, and makes table-top combats flow quickly and easily, but realistic, it ain't. Tactics are minimal. "Odd battlefields" are known in metagame to be special. And what this gains in ease, it surrenders by taking the players out of the world and into the knowledge that they're playing a game.

That's why abstract combat is optional, rather than core. It's an example of something that, to make it more like Final Fantasy, you would have to give up something that made it a table-top RPG (namely, tactical, battlefield fighting). 

Minigames have also been a bit odd. Button-mashing, timing games, and tetra master don't translate to tabletop too well. It's possible, but to accomplish it, you'd have to bring in other things. Want to stop in the middle of your game session and play a hand of poker? Or go outside and run a race? While this certainly captures a "final fantasy feel," it kind of compromises the "table-top RPG" feel. 

I'm sure there are others, but those two stand out at me. 



> What are you currently working on? Will you feel comfortable giving us your current alpha material for review or discussion? Can we help, or should it be more of a solo project?




I'm a notorious control freak about this project. Because it's really easy to get bogged down in discussions of how it should be done, and then nothing ends up actually getting done.  I'd rather make a choice and go back and correct it later than talk about what choice I should make in comitee for a week before going ahead with it. 

Currently I'm working out how I'm representing the bonuses that jobs gain instead of treasure, and how I want the gil/level chart to work. In D&D, characters gain about 30% more wealth at each level, which leaves the low levels too poor to afford any bells and whistles, but leaves the higher levels rediculously well-enhanced. I can't get fire damage at 4th level, but by 40th I'll be lucky if I can find enough powers to give 'em! The problem is that it increases exponentially in D&D, while in FF, it's a more linear progression of power to power. Paired with that is the desire to keep it balanced with the core system -- making sure they ARE weak at 1st level, and strong at 40th. And then there's the fact that the bonuses just look *ugly* right now. There's not a smooth progression of powers and abilities -- you get random bonuses to Strength and Resistance and Defense and Agility, and it's not spaced out well or increasing at a predictable rate. 

And to balance it out, I've had to re-examine treasure tables, think about how I'm going to balance the core classes, manipulate magic item types, and think about how treasure will work in FFZ. And then I separated Berserker and Beastmaster, and I unified the saves, and I did away with iterative attacks and figured out a multiple actions/round system.   



> I would especially like to see the FFZ magic system if it can handle the stylings of Red Mage, White Mage, Caller, etc., as the D&D magic system is my least favorite part of that game. I'd even like to help, though it seems KM is far more versed on the subject then I am. Need some anime style fan art?




To drop some hints, the magic system is point-based, and every character can make use of MP, from knights to magicians, to accomplish different things. There is only one "saving throw," and it's resolved more like an attack roll/AC set.


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## Mark Causey (Aug 17, 2005)

I think that if you can abstract the combat, a vital part of the game, that you could abstract wealth, too. FF was never about having enough Gil. Didn't have enough? Don't progress the story until you do. Thus, I'd make a point of checking out the Wealth system from d20 Modern.

Will races be predefined, or will you have something to create them as needed?

Ever since the warlock came out, showing how spell-like abilities work and can be balanced, I've always thought it a possible method of Blue magic. Have you been utilizing the new rules that WotC has been releasing, and have you incorporated any OGL material in your game?


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## I'm A Banana (Aug 17, 2005)

> I think that if you can abstract the combat, a vital part of the game, that you could abstract wealth, too. FF was never about having enough Gil. Didn't have enough? Don't progress the story until you do. Thus, I'd make a point of checking out the Wealth system from d20 Modern.




It sure is possible. However, I found in the playtests that I did that people really love the feel of massive piles of gil, and the system of adding and subtracting numbers made it feel something like a "high score," which helps encourage the video-game style. Finding a chest with 100,000 gil in it feels different then finding a chest with a +2 wealth bonus in it, after all.

I'm generally using the 1 gil = 1 gp standard, and everything that costs less is simply abstracted (infinite backpacks, no need for "pocket control" like there is in D&D, no encumbrance). 

The biggest difference is that whole "assumed wealth per level" chart. Because the things that most PC's spend wealth on (save bonuses, skill bonuses, ability bonuses, armor bonuses, weapon bonuses) are rolled into the job system in FFZ, this presents a few new issues. Namely, what do FFZ characters spend gil on? And how do these things make you more powerful, without being the things that give you simple bonuses?

In the games, wealth is spent on consumable items (potions, antidotes, phoenix downs), knowledge (teaching you abilities and magic), upgraded equipment (better armor and weapons in each town!), and accessories (which are basically bonuses that you can mix and match).

In FFZ, the last two are (generally speaking) part of your job. Your defense increases, your damage increases, your attack bonus increases, and your resistance increases as you gain levels. In standard d20, knowledge is part of normal advancement, too (while nothing else is, really) -- you don't need to spend gold to go from _Cure Light Wounds_ to _Cure Moderate Wounds_.

Effectively, it's reconciling two different measures of character power. In D&D, if you spend 100,000 GP, you may get a helmet that lets you read minds. In FFZ, if you spend 100,000 gil, you might learn how to Auto-Regen. In D&D, you get class powers and spend gold for magic on top of that. In FFZ, you spend gold to get class powers (which reflects the games, in which you must visit magic shops, and buy weapons and armor that teach powers). In D&D, treasure may be a legendary artifact. In FFZ, treasure comes in the form of a legendary character who joins your party.

How much is a character like Orlandou "worth" in D&D terms? What about the Mimic job? Or the HP-Stroll ability? A hidden summon? Can you translate FF AP into D&D GP?

Most of my work right now is figuring that out. I think I'm leaning towards a "DM fiat" kind of wealth system, where the PC's have options of getting these powers, these characters, these "ultimate weapons," and their cost in gil or otherwise is largely put in the DM's hand. The DM's guide gives these powers, and advice on what level to do it at, and it's up to the DMs to make sure their PC's can afford it (or not), since treasure is ultimately entirely in the DM's hand.



> Will races be predefined, or will you have something to create them as needed?




There will be PLENTY of predefined races, however, the things that go hand-in-hand with races are extremely easy to customize. 

In FFZ, one of your souces for Limit Breaks is your race. Races also give you ability and skill modifiers. There's some racial-specific treasure/powers. And that's about it. There's no size modifiers (at least, not in any core race). There's no "quadruped vs. biped" consideration. There's no creature type consideration (all races are considered to be "humanoid," even if they're half-esper or genetic mutant or robotic cat riding a giant moogle). There are optional rules for limiting classes by race, but the racial-specific treasure/powers really take care of most of that (so that a hume ninja and a moogle ninja and a robot ninja all feel like different kinds of ninja, despite having very similar skills).

The inspiration for this was definately the abstract FF system of combat, where the major difference between a yeti and a whatever-the-heck-Gogo-is and a moogle could be expressed in the jobs they had and a handful of ability scores. Where an Ancient played almost exactly like a robot cat on a giant stuffed moogle. 

So, as the preview shows, I go into nearly every FF race ever as examples. However, that's more to show off the diversity of the limit system and the remarkable similarity between the races. There's no "racial design system," but with only four or five things to decide on when you bring in the race, there doesn't really need to be. There's just a whole bunch of examples. 



> Ever since the warlock came out, showing how spell-like abilities work and can be balanced, I've always thought it a possible method of Blue magic. Have you been utilizing the new rules that WotC has been releasing, and have you incorporated any OGL material in your game?




I've been "borrowing liberally."  While the warlock never specifically influenced anything, I do owe a debt to Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed, and more than a little to Bruce Cordell and the Expanded Psionics Handbook, especially for showing me variant magical systems. I don't remember specifically where it was from, but one of the early super hero supplements (maybe Four Colors to Fantasy?) gave me the idea for translating GP into raw powers. I've also drawn some ideas from Unearthed Arcana (the WotC release) on how to keep the various goings-on balanced with core D&D. 

There's definately more third-party-thought than WotC-thought in FFZ. While not intentional, that just reflects that third parties like re-inventing the wheel, and ultimately, FFZ is a re-invention of the wheel itself.  

Surprisingly enough, Elements of Magic (which went so far as to refer to its mages with colors) specifically did not help me in this project at all.   Mostly that's because their magic system is based on flexibility and verstility, whereas FF magic pretty much only does one thing, typically only related to combat. 

As far as blue magic, specifically...well, in FFZ, the monsters obey the EXACT same rules as the PC's. Which means that a monster's "racial job" works just like a PC's job. What this means for blue magic is that they're basically learning another job's abilities (and they work very similar to a mimic in this fashion), specifically, they're learning the monster job's abilities. Because most job abilities in FFZ cost MP, translating them into blue magic is surprisingly simple. It merely becomes a matter of developing a "goblin job," complete with _goblin punch_.

In FFZ, there is no big difference between spells and spell-like abilities (specifically, all spells are pretty much spell-like abilities -- components are for suckas). Class abilities have descriptors and schools. But the magic system has been simplified, too, to less reflect "little old men who sit in towers and never leave and learn ancient secrets" and to more reflect "little old men who sit in towers and learn ancient secrets that they then use to blow stuff up" as it is shown in the games. 

Simplification has been huge in FFZ. Part of the feel I'm trying to achieve is to make the gameplay as easy as pushing buttons and getting results, freeing the players to think of story and character more than is usually even possible in normal D&D. If you have a four hour session, and the minis combat takes an hour, that's an hour not spent really developing story that much...and if your character could not be present for the three other hours because he died in the first, it steers the focus toward combat. Combat is an essential part of FFZ, but it is, at it's most abstract, a plot device. More commonly in FFZ, it will be a turning point, a bridge, an event of note...it is entirely possible to never have any campaign-reseting TPK's in FFZ. In fact, you'd have to try pretty hard (and reject optional rules like the Save Point) to make one. The game is in the shared crafting of the story and in the random chance of accomplishing goals. FFZ is designed to be a game where even failure adds to the fun, rather than bringing it to a screeching halt.

I switched into a bit of gushing, there, but I hope I answered the Q's. 

Any others?


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## The LMS (Aug 18, 2005)

have you been play testing this as you go.   If so have you been doing it with actual players, or just testing things by yourself.   Or, quite possibly..have you just been eyeballing everything till it looks right and expect to make some balance changes later?


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## I'm A Banana (Aug 18, 2005)

I test with my players where possible, but there's always instances where that's not possible, and so I self-playtest and I eyeball. That's part of why I'm encouraging everyone to send feedback.    There are things that I might not notice, or things that I might not expect, and that's why these documents are subject to change and revision, based on your feedback. It's a little less painful to revise an online document than it is to revise 3.5 (and it definately costs less  ), and once the entire initial system gets out there, it can be tweaked and changed as needed to make it the best it can be. 

Most of this stuff has been playtested with my own players, but that's by no means true of all of it, so I encourage criticism and opions, because it's only under pressure that things get better.


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## Mark Causey (Aug 18, 2005)

Are you open to playtesting requests?


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## Cynlas (Aug 19, 2005)

*Ditto That...*

I'd like to second AA's question: Are you open to others being your playtesters? 

My playing group is small, but diverse in its interests and individual playing styles. As my wife and I are both big FF fans, we both are looking forward to your game.


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## I'm A Banana (Aug 20, 2005)

> Are you open to playtesting requests?




MMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmaybe. 

My work on FFZ is kind of all over the place, and I fear that my style of design would, at the moment, be more aggrivating to playtesters than constructive.

That said, it is something I'm interested in pursuing in the near future, and something I'm going to keep my mind on while I'm plugging away. The main issue right now is that the rules at this stage are not complete enough to run an entire adventure (though they're dang close!). I'm working ahead of the releases, and all told I'm about 25% into the design of the DM's side of things (the final steps of an adventure). And I don't have everything completed leading up to that, either. Mostly, it's the process of turning the rules into crunch.

Fer'instance, you know the 50-level jobs? Well, just 15 minutes ago, I finished designing the first one, the Beastmaster (who is pretty much just a re-named and re-focused berserker). Using the rules I have, I could make a beastmaster character. However, giving him stuff to do -- a world to interact with -- is still in protean stages, without much written down in any kind of organized fashion. 

I'm focused on compiling THAT.  Once I have a tank, a healer, a blaster, a sneaker, a monster, and a treasure, I'll jump right into playtest mode, I think. That's still a few weeks away, at this point, though. Not long...but long enough that if I handed you some disorganized notes and a 50-level job table, it wouldn't be of much use.   

The hard stuff is done, which is why I'm doing the releases at this point. But now that I've built bones, I've gotta arranage them into some sort of skeleton. My own players have been subject to me throwing bones at them (aahh, back when I had 20-level classes and used the Black Mage with PHB spells and no MP system.....).

Anyway, there's a good chance that I'll be releasing the Character Concepts and Races documents by the end of this month. Somewhere I may fit in an explanation of the Limit system. I guess we'll find out.   

Anyway, back to work for me. And let's go with this: if you're interested on being in playtesting groups by the end of the year, send me your name, the names of your players, and some of the stuff you'd and they'd like to most see out of FFZ. The benefits of playtesting are that you'll see your favorite stuff ASAP.   I'll compile a list, and I'll check again when the bones make a skeleton. 

Thanks for the offers, though. Seriously. I'm flattered and excited. BACK TO WORK!


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## M.L. Martin (Aug 28, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> I'm a notorious control freak about this project. Because it's really easy to get bogged down in discussions of how it should be done, and then nothing ends up actually getting done.  I'd rather make a choice and go back and correct it later than talk about what choice I should make in comitee for a week before going ahead with it.




   Yes.  Oh most definitely, _*yes*_.

   I must say, what I've seen looks quite promising.  I agree with some commentors that you should consider changing the tribe names to something more generic--especially for those of us who are more 'old school' in our tastes.    (I haven't played anything postdating IX.)  So far, though, that's the only real complaint I have.  Will there be a gambler class for simulating folks like Setzer?

   Matthew L. Martin, founding member of the team that would produce what eventually would become the Returners FFRPG.  I make no claim to what was finally produced, though.


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## I'm A Banana (Sep 1, 2005)

> I must say, what I've seen looks quite promising. I agree with some commentors that you should consider changing the tribe names to something more generic--especially for those of us who are more 'old school' in our tastes.  (I haven't played anything postdating IX.) So far, though, that's the only real complaint I have. Will there be a gambler class for simulating folks like Setzer?
> 
> Matthew L. Martin, founding member of the team that would produce what eventually would become the Returners FFRPG. I make no claim to what was finally produced, though.




Hahaha, I was involved in the Returner's FFRPG for a minute before d20 came out. I did some work on Gau-style rages.  

And actually, as I've started to write the tribes, I have noticed that they do need some sort of organizational force. So I've added categories (something like Character Concepts for tribes) that they fit into. Each race more acts like a slight modification of the category than as their own unique type, now.


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## I'm A Banana (Sep 1, 2005)

Just submitted the newest article! Should be up sometime soon.


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## Lokishadow (Sep 7, 2005)

**drool...pant...slobber**

More!!!


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## Mark Causey (Sep 7, 2005)

I was thinking, will there be a mechanic for group transportation? I can understand if you expect that to be all story-based, but I'd think it'd be cool if, like Leadership, a group knew when they could expect to see transportation popping up or becoming available.


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## Lackhand (Sep 11, 2005)

Demand More Article!
Demand More Article!

Is there anything I can do to help? Other than offer moral and/or monetary support-- I'm already doing the first half, and unable to contribute the second (!).

The other question is one that is beginning to get really videogamey-- what about cutscenes and minigames?
In terms of advice for the DM, telling them that they could try running flashbacks/divinations as games-within-games would be kinda cute.
Other minigames are much harder and perhaps don't need to be imported.

On a related note: anybody here feeling the similarity vibe between Magic of Incarnum (at least in concept, not so much in previews) and FF magicite/materia?

Kamikaze Midget, do you think you'll get mitts on a copy of MoI before you get to that section of FFZ?

I'm actually interested, if you include something like this, how you balance item based abilities with class based ones-- what did Aeris do, other than enhance the spells everyone else could cast anyway?

As I say: Article article article!
Or better-- the next chapter!

Your adoring fan


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## Enchelion Derabdur (Sep 12, 2005)

I quite enjoy this project, I've seen many a FF pdf that completely misses the point, this is an incredible looking system, and I cant wait for more to come.


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## I'm A Banana (Sep 12, 2005)

> I was thinking, will there be a mechanic for group transportation? I can understand if you expect that to be all story-based, but I'd think it'd be cool if, like Leadership, a group knew when they could expect to see transportation popping up or becoming available.




This is pretty much in the DM's hands, but there is a lot of detail given on modes of transportation, and how they work in a story. Different DM's will do things differently, but some form of group transport is definately assumed by the upper-mid range of levels (about the equivalent to D&D 10th-12th). Typically, this will be an airship, but depending upon the story...and there may also be come earlier (such as for sailing ships), and may also come later (such as for space ships).



> The other question is one that is beginning to get really videogamey-- what about cutscenes and minigames?




They can be awkward in a table-top game. Cutscenes...what would you watch? There's exposition, but that gets old pretty quick. Minigames...no buttons to push....no timing mechanism....However, for minigames, at least, it's possible to do a few things to switch up the pace. Play a hand of poker? Rock-paper-scissors? Sure, run with it.  Not every group will like mixing it up like that, but minigames can be fun.



> On a related note: anybody here feeling the similarity vibe between Magic of Incarnum (at least in concept, not so much in previews) and FF magicite/materia?
> 
> Kamikaze Midget, do you think you'll get mitts on a copy of MoI before you get to that section of FFZ?
> 
> I'm actually interested, if you include something like this, how you balance item based abilities with class based ones-- what did Aeris do, other than enhance the spells everyone else could cast anyway?




I haven't seen much of MoI, but as far as Aeris goes...she's basically a white mage. And as the Magicite/Materia goes, the major way that is reflected is in the Treasure Abilities rules, which gives you powers, not simply trinkets....



> As I say: Article article article!
> Or better-- the next chapter!




I'm not sure what's holding up the site...the article is there, but it's been awaiting approval for a few weeks now....I'm not sure why it hasn't been approved, but it's just chillin' there...

The next release is posted in my signature, but you are missin' out on some insights.


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## Cynlas (Sep 13, 2005)

*Web-site?*

Since I seem to be a bit out of a loop somewhere, what website? I have downloaded from the links in your Sigg, Kamikaze, so have apparently missed out on whatever website they are also being posted on.  

Any chance of someone providing a link here for me (and any others who also may have missed out)?

Thanks.

And Chapter three looks great, will show to group next session.

B


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## Enchelion Derabdur (Sep 13, 2005)

How exactly will the base stats be used (Atk, def, resistance, and magic  (cant remember the exact terms, its late)), I assume that the Atk will be much as Bab, but will the def score apply as damage reduction or AC? (in the games it reduced the damge you took), and will you have the spells like in the games (mana used to pay for the abilities you know from you class) or a little more d20ish?


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## I'm A Banana (Sep 13, 2005)

> Any chance of someone providing a link here for me (and any others who also may have missed out)?




Check the main page; there's a design diary article up. There might be another...some day...if it's ever approved.   



> How exactly will the base stats be used (Atk, def, resistance, and magic (cant remember the exact terms, its late)), I assume that the Atk will be much as Bab, but will the def score apply as damage reduction or AC? (in the games it reduced the damge you took), and will you have the spells like in the games (mana used to pay for the abilities you know from you class) or a little more d20ish?




Attack Score = BAB for most purposes. You add it to a d20 roll, and if you exceed the enemy's AC, you damage them. 

Resistance = Saves for most purposes. The FF games have a unified saving throw against magical effects, so there is only one type of Resistance, which magical classes are better at than physical classes. You add your Wisdom bonus (so it works like a Will save) to rolls with it to beat your enemy's DC to lessen or entirely resist magical attacks. It also often works as sort of a magical DR.

Magic = "caster level" for most purposes. It's used to determine the power of spells you cast, as well as what level of spells you can cast. Magic helps solve the "multiclassing spellcasters" problem of d20, and gives knights and samurai a way to learn the occasional magic spell through a feat or treasure ability.

Defense = Two numbers: one adds to AC, one adds to DR. The DR you get from Defense applies against all physical attacks; the AC is an armor bonus that stacks with worn armor (which now just comes in four categories). Armor grants additional AC and DR. In general, this means FFZ characters and creatures will hit more often (reflecting the fact that you rarely miss in the games), but do less damage (reflecting the Armor-lessens-damage mechanic in the games). 

All of these stats increase by level. I wanted to use one progression chart, but if I was going to stay balanced with the core, I couldn't use the same progression for Resistance that I could with Attack (for instance). But all have *some* progression, and some variation...there's now a Medium-level Resistance bonus, for instance (instead of just "good" and "bad" saves). 

Right now in my writing, HP and MP are also set numbers, but I'm not sure if I want it that way in the end...


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## Xaos_Bob (Sep 16, 2005)

*Ten cents' worth*

Something to look at when the wealth-by-level tables try to stare you down may be Malhavoc Press' _Iron Heroes_. That's all about improving the character, though it is admittedly weighed in heavy favor of warrior types. Could be some good inspiration there, though.

And again, kudos to your talent and chutzpa. It's great to know FFZ is in such able hands.

(now I need to read the rest of the thread)


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## jeffh (Sep 16, 2005)

Hmm. Personally I've always thought a bell-curved roll mechanic or possibily a die pool would better reflect FF mechanics than a system like d20. Most abilities in the FF games I've played are VERY reliable, including regular attacks. You don't really get that feel with 1d20 + mods. (Have you seen the old, old document on how FF4's combat mechanics work? It's basically an opposed-roll die pool system using percentile dice. It would be a nightmare to try to do exactly in tabletop conditions, but a simplification of that would seem like the way to go to me.)

That's one thing I didn't like about the Returner RPG, too.  Mind you, I can see how a percentile mechanic would appeal to someone coming in from, say, FF Tactics, which I'm only starting to play now believe it or not. 

Having said that, what I've seen seems well put together for one guy working without so much as an editor, and I look forward to seeing more of it.

One thing I'm curious about - in most of the FFs I've played, random encounters take up a buttload of your time and are the main way you advance. There are tons of little wear-you-down fights, even more than in D&D. FFT is the main exception - that one fits most of your description, and most of the fights are RUGGED too - but even that has random encounters.

So I'm curious why you are taking, as far as I can see, exactly the opposite tack with FFZ. Have more recent FFs abandoned that model? Or is there some other reason behind that decision? I'm not saying it's a bad decision, I'm just curious as to the reasoning. (It may be relevant here that I play most of my FF through emulation so I'm a generation behind, technologically speaking.)


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## I'm A Banana (Sep 16, 2005)

> Hmm. Personally I've always thought a bell-curved roll mechanic or possibily a die pool would better reflect FF mechanics than a system like d20. Most abilities in the FF games I've played are VERY reliable, including regular attacks. You don't really get that feel with 1d20 + mods. (Have you seen the old, old document on how FF4's combat mechanics work? It's basically an opposed-roll die pool system using percentile dice. It would be a nightmare to try to do exactly in tabletop conditions, but a simplification of that would seem like the way to go to me.)
> 
> That's one thing I didn't like about the Returner RPG, too. Mind you, I can see how a percentile mechanic would appeal to someone coming in from, say, FF Tactics, which I'm only starting to play now believe it or not.




Indeed, an opposed bell curve mechanic would emulate the mechanics of the FF games pretty well. However, I saw that it was not really nessecary...an "FF Feel" comes from the story, the iconic creatures, and the jobs and abilities, and only in part from the mechanics.

The mechanics just didn't seem to be the core of the game, to me. They weren't as integral to the delight and joy derived from the game the first play through, because they were transparent. However, the d20 mechanic is integral to the feel of RPG's for me (and for most people who play a lot of D&D, I guess...). And it also allows for a more "heroic" feel, with extreme results being more common. Because thousands of points of damage was kind of out of the realm of possibility, there needed to be something that showed this complete mastery -- critical success.

So the d20 keeps the mechanics familiar, simple, and easy to use for anyone who has played D&D before. This favors simplicity and heroics, which are both things FFZ would like to encourage (going up against villains and impossible odds? Yup!). 

That said, it isn't too hard to turn a d20 into a 3d6 for a bell curve roll. UA gives some solid advice, and makes sure to note that skill ranks, ability scores, and bonuses have a much more powerful effect on a bell curve roll than on a d20 roll. I'll probably crib from UA notes when talking about how to modify FFZ for personal tastes.



> So I'm curious why you are taking, as far as I can see, exactly the opposite tack with FFZ. Have more recent FFs abandoned that model? Or is there some other reason behind that decision? I'm not saying it's a bad decision, I'm just curious as to the reasoning. (It may be relevant here that I play most of my FF through emulation so I'm a generation behind, technologically speaking.)




The reason for this is one of those things I decided to do in translating a videogame to a table top. In an FF game, each combat only takes a few minutes or a few seconds. Even boss battles don't last very long, and FFT (and FFT-A) are the exceptions to this point, but they don't last more than a few minutes themselves. 

Compare this to tabletop, where a combat can take fifteen minutes to an hour...and you've got a problem. If random encounters are as common as they are in most FF games, you're spending much more time at the table, and thus getting nowhere fast. Several months of real time can zoom by with nothing more than random encounters. While good in a game for building levels, this is a hassle at the table, where the meat of the game is in significant (boss-like) combat. 

This problem can be mitigated by things like abstracted combat, but you're still having everyone's turn last a minute or more. It gets dull not getting anyplace (for most groups, anyway...I'm sure some have NO problem just slugging it out. ). So FFZ cuts out the boring parts. There are "random encounters" in the way that the DM rolls on a table for a monster, but this is before the session starts, usually, and the DM thinks about how the monster will encounter the PC's, and why such a monster would exist, and what kind of seeds for story and character development the monster has. It's also not entirely common...directly related to "travel distance," actually in that the farther you go, the more encounters of this type you will have, and the more treasure abilities you have a chance to get...

Anyway, the basic crux is that tabletop combat can be long and complex, and FFZ definately strives to be simpler and faster paced than normal D&D. So while there are random encounters, these are often well-planned in advance. FFZ pays attention to the real-world schedule that many gaming groups are on, and asks that the DM pay attention to it, too, in order to make the game the most effective. FFZ wants you to know approximately how many sessions you want your adventure to take, what kind of players you have, where you will time events, if holidays will interefere, where and when you play...mostly from the DM's side, but from the player's as well. And only having a few combats in each game session (3-5, normally, slightly less if there is a boss battle) helps that pacing go smoothly.


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## Mark Causey (Sep 20, 2005)

FFZ Chapter 3 said:
			
		

> Generally speaking, character concepts exist to anchor your choices in character generation to a personality for your character. Character concepts are broad archetypes, even clichés, which represent sweeping generalizations about certain types of characters often found in the Final Fantasy games. They are guidelines, advice, and prepackaged motive for a character.




Wonderful. The only thing I see missing (which may be later on in the chapter) is making sure that characters aren't created in a vacuum. Characters should be made with the help and consent of the DM AND gaming group. But really, thanks for addressing the character concept with rules other than class and race.



			
				FFZ Chapter 3 said:
			
		

> They are, rather purposefully, simplistic. This serves several purposes, the most obvious of which is to allow each player to develop a unique character out of the concept’s rough design. Two characters who share the Knight in Shining Armor concept may be very different depending upon the motives, adventures, experiences, and even setting they exist in. Part of the fun of FFZ is in uncovering and unearthing deep, meaningful experiences for these fictitious beings in these fantastic settings that nonetheless may echo some of the feeling and meaning the players can have. --snip-- A simple over-eager Child Savant in the opening scenes should become a complex individual by the time they’re facing down the major villain.




Is there some way of extending the character concept down the levels to add more mechanics that reinforce character concept or character evolution? Maybe you could get something small every level or every few levels (like a UA Bloodline) that reinforced the character concept, or had a feat tree that only your concept could advance on easily (by ignoring the prereqs)? Maybe you could, if you used them, allow the action dice to be d8s, d10s, or even d12s, if the scene was important to your character or her concept? Or, you could give extra action dice for scenes that applied? If you wanted to extend the idea that the Character Concept helped give frame to and guidance for your character, maybe you could give examples of feats and class choices in a more rigid form that could be taken to get some bonuses (like the UA Monk schools). Also, the guilds and traditions provide both GP, level, and roleplaying requirements for their benefits.

Just some thoughts.


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## I'm A Banana (Sep 21, 2005)

> Characters should be made with the help and consent of the DM AND gaming group. But really, thanks for addressing the character concept with rules other than class and race.




True enough, they should. However, that's more of a group style and DM descision more than anything, which is more covered from the DM's side than the informative player's side that Ch3 approaches the mechanic from. To play any character, one must always consider the group's needs, after all.  It isn't expressly mentioned here, thuogh it will be mentioned on the DM's side.



> Is there some way of extending the character concept down the levels to add more mechanics that reinforce character concept or character evolution? Maybe you could get something small every level or every few levels (like a UA Bloodline) that reinforced the character concept, or had a feat tree that only your concept could advance on easily (by ignoring the prereqs)? Maybe you could, if you used them, allow the action dice to be d8s, d10s, or even d12s, if the scene was important to your character or her concept? Or, you could give extra action dice for scenes that applied? If you wanted to extend the idea that the Character Concept helped give frame to and guidance for your character, maybe you could give examples of feats and class choices in a more rigid form that could be taken to get some bonuses (like the UA Monk schools). Also, the guilds and traditions provide both GP, level, and roleplaying requirements for their benefits.




All these thoughts are quite golden, but I've decided to go the simple approach: the best way you can build on a character concept is by getting feats that use your bonus feat as a prerequisite, or that are otherwise related to your character concept. A coward, for instance, would take feats like Improved Initiative, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Skill Focus (sneak), and Mobility (but probably not Spring Attack...unless he had become bolder in the time it took for him to get it), and might take a feat like Desperate Attack which requires Fast Escape, and grants bonuses when the withdrawl action cannot be used. They can also choose powers and seek treasure that emphasises these traits -- the coward may take the Theif job (or as a sub-job) which allows him to better remain unseen, and may get the HP Stroll treasure ability that allows him to regain life while scampering away from foes. 

Someone who liked the coward but found that cowardice challenged and accepted a new bravery may not focus as much on those. They may be quick to escape, maybe with a few feats dedicated to it, but they have learned to stand their ground, too...perhaps even serving as bait, using his powers of escape to lure monsters back to a well-fortified position.

So, in the end, it's up to the player how much they want to invest in the concept. It isn't designed to dominate a character's advancement in the way that a level or an organization might. Just to guide it (and you can bet that NPC's that have these concepts will make good use of them to influence their options). So there aren't a lot of ways to make specific use of it in later levels. This is intentional -- ideally, your concept becomes less key to understanding your character as you advance. Percentage wise, a character has 100% of their feat options dedicated to their concept at level 1. At level 30, they may have six feats -- they could still have 100% of them dedicated to their concept, or maybe they have only that one, a measly 17% of their adventuring careers revolving around it, the rest going to tribes, jobs, party role, new events, and general awesomeness.


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## Narkaious (Oct 13, 2005)

Is this dead I was really hoping to see this thing come through to the end?


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## Tensaiga (Oct 13, 2005)

I was always kind of partial to http://www.returnergames.com/ for my Final Fantasy table-top gaming needs.  Sure, it isn't D20 but it perhaps captures the spirit and essence of the game better than any other attempts I have seen, and it is very much a table-top RPG still.


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## evolved (Oct 15, 2005)

Can I help

I have a knack for finding abuseable loopholes


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 20, 2005)

It's not dead, but I've started some classes that are eating up my time. Rest assured, I'm still hard at work on the Tribes chapter, and this in general. 


The Returner's RPG I actually worked on for a while, and I can't say anything too bad against it. FFZ is merely philosophically divergent at a really basic level -- it embraces the d20 system, it concentrates less on direct class emulation, and more on overall feel and style, and it builds on what already exists rather than creating a new system from the ground up. The Returners like to get things "how they worked in the games," where I'm much more concerned with "how it felt to do this in the game," and "how that feeling can be achieved with dice." 

And the best help is just giving me your gamer expertise at this point. Sometime eventually I'll have the structure set up enough for playtesting; until then, just tell me what you think! Heck, write a review if you feel inspired!   

Yeah, the project ain't dead yet. Just at a mild lull while I work on the Tribes.


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## Cynlas (Oct 20, 2005)

Well, I have integrated the "Character Concepts" chapter into my existing D&D campaign without incident, but a whole lot of additional backstory for one of the PCs (whose player is semi new to RP, and so is a little on the shy side of things) to which I have been able to add a bit of additional depth to the campaign (she chose the Repentant Sinner), along with a Free Spirit. Obviously not everyone has chosen one yet, but I also didn't make it mandatory (though the free feats make it desireable).

As I am not a "D20 or Die" type of gamer (having been around far too long for that), I too have looked at the returner system. While I do have a preference to true percentile systems, Returner's FFRPG requires far too much spontaneous and complicated number-crunching to resolve anything in a timely fasion, making it, ultimately, unsuitable for my gaming table, and that is when you are using the pre-calculated setups. Were I one who could produce the mathematical answers "instantly" like some sort of Savant, then maybe it would be playable for me.

While I love complex systems, and would (and _have_) gladly spend hours creating (and even helping others create) characters and whatnot using complex algebraic formulas; once you hit the Tables, it must be able to function quickly and efficiently. This is where, IMHO, the Returner system falls short, as does other systems I like. For instance, the Phoenix Command system utilized in Living Steel was great, in theory; but in actual play it was too labor intensive to be playable, particularly the combat system where speed and efficiency was needed most. It is also here, in the combat phase, that Returner, again IMHO, falls down. 

Anyway, back to FFZ. I certainly like what you have so far, and like everyone else I am anxiously awaiting more crunchies. As you are currently working on the Tribes section, I'd like to ask you for more detail as to why you chose to blur the distinction between social groups and biological races and incorporate them into a single concept of "Tribe"? For instance, an Al Bhed really isn't distinct from a Human other than as a cultural thing (which the idea in D20 is that such distinctions relate to available bonus feats and skills), but a Lupine is certainly distinct in all basic capabilities from a Tarutaru. Further, are you going to include in some future chapter a breakdown of the tribes and jobs available by FF "world" for those who'd like to re-create a particular setting?


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 21, 2005)

> Well, I have integrated the "Character Concepts" chapter into my existing D&D campaign without incident, but a whole lot of additional backstory for one of the PCs (whose player is semi new to RP, and so is a little on the shy side of things) to which I have been able to add a bit of additional depth to the campaign (she chose the Repentant Sinner), along with a Free Spirit. Obviously not everyone has chosen one yet, but I also didn't make it mandatory (though the free feats make it desireable).




I'm really glad it's been force for good. You have no idea. It excites me that you find it useful. 

Of course, keep in mind that in FFZ, that "bonus feat" is effectively replacing the feat that every character gets at 1st level. But heck, if it's helping people to get more into their characters, an extra feat prolly won't hurt much. 




> While I love complex systems, and would (and have) gladly spend hours creating (and even helping others create) characters and whatnot using complex algebraic formulas; once you hit the Tables, it must be able to function quickly and efficiently. This is where, IMHO, the Returner system falls short, as does other systems I like. For instance, the Phoenix Command system utilized in Living Steel was great, in theory; but in actual play it was too labor intensive to be playable, particularly the combat system where speed and efficiency was needed most. It is also here, in the combat phase, that Returner, again IMHO, falls down.




I absolutely agree with this, and that is why I made a descision, early on, to focus on simplicity.

Because while knowing the underlying system that the FF game used to arrive at a given conclusion is interesting, I don't want to stop playing why I do that same calculation with my merely human brain, which is going to be much less quick than the computer. So with FFZ, I have attempted to replicate the simplicity of pushing buttons and getting effects. And I've noticed it's actually more simple than D&D is, at the core. I mean, using abstract combat over environmental combat already removes 1/4th of the complexity from D&D, ne? 



> As you are currently working on the Tribes section, I'd like to ask you for more detail as to why you chose to blur the distinction between social groups and biological races and incorporate them into a single concept of "Tribe"? For instance, an Al Bhed really isn't distinct from a Human other than as a cultural thing (which the idea in D20 is that such distinctions relate to available bonus feats and skills), but a Lupine is certainly distinct in all basic capabilities from a Tarutaru. Further, are you going to include in some future chapter a breakdown of the tribes and jobs available by FF "world" for those who'd like to re-create a particular setting?




To a certain degree, this was chosen by the games themselves, where the Hypello and the Ronso and the Al Bhed were all different "tribes." Not species. Not races. Just different societies in the same world.

Also, the games dealt with the morphological difference quite simply. Cait Sith was a remote controlled robotic cat riding a moogle doll. And yet he was still subject to crits, he still had all the scores, he still had limit breaks, he still played, in the same way, as Cloud or Tifa or Barrett (who may have had a gun for an arm, but who could still climb ladders and swing on ropes). 

So I've taken a similar approach myself: it doesn't matter if you're a wolf-person or a childlike sprite, you're still following the same basic rules as everyone else. Where tribe matters is in defining what you're good at (and, in some campaigns, what jobs you can be). In D&D terms, this is mostly ability score adjustments. In effect, whether construct of stuffing and circiutry, a half-spirit-being from the world beyond, a moogle, a child, or a wolf-person, you're not going to be that dramatically different from the rest of the party in basic capabilities. 

It's not harshly realistic, but FFZ is taking a step in many ways away from "realism" in favor of simple believability and playability. You can expect that the wolf-person will be better at living in the wild than a magical child, and that the magical child will be better at using magic to defend themselves than the wolf-person. But the wolf person doesn't get a benefit from having, say, a fuzzy head, anymore than Mog gained a benefit for having bat wings in FF6 (didn't stop him from potentially falling off a cliff, that's for sure!).


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## Cynlas (Oct 21, 2005)

> Of course, keep in mind that in FFZ, that "bonus feat" is effectively replacing the feat that every character gets at 1st level.




Ah. I missed that somewhere. Good to know for when we start a dedicated FFZ campaign.  

At any rate, the extra feat hasn't pushed the _Player's Edge_ too far, so I don't anticipate any problems with giving it to them at this point. Well just have to see if they survive the Brainstealers (from DM #337) this week...


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## I'm A Banana (Nov 15, 2005)

I hope they survived. 

If you're still paying attention to this thread, this is for you: a hastily cobbled together stat block for a first-level Knight job hume!

KNIGHT EXAMPLE (LV1 Hume)
Medium Humanoid (Hume)
Level: 1
HP: 7
MP: 1
Agility: -6
Defense: AC 17/DR 5 (0 active)
Resistance: -1
Magic: +1
Weapon: Knightsword +4 (1d10+3/19-20)
Abilities: Str 16 (+3), Dex 10 (0), Con 14 (+2), Int 12 (+1), Wis 8 (-1), Cha 13 (+1)
Skills: Craft +2, Endurance +3, Diplomacy +2
Feats: Hardiness (B), Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Knightsword)
Break Techniques:
	Improved Sunder: +4 bonus to sunder attempts; you provoke no attack
	(Next Level, @ 250 XP) Defensive: When taking a full defense action, your Defense score is AC 21/DR 9 (0 active)


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## Cynlas (Nov 15, 2005)

Yeah, they survived, mostly...   

I've subscribed to all three running threads (that I know of anyway), so I get notified when they are updated. 

Cool Knight. As it has been a while (and for the audience), why does his DR go up when acting defensively? I vaguely recall it being part of how you implemented the AC as DR rules, though I could be mistaken. 

At any rate, looks cool, and will be interesting to see how it all comes together when other chapters are "published", and certain stats are defined. Even "as is", I can drop it into the current game and see how it works out (though obviously not to its _full_ potential). It will be very interesting (for me anyway) to see how some of those stats were calculated (some are quite simple, like the AB for the sword appears to follow standard 3E BAB+STR MOD, but others a little mysterious, like HP (which under 3e would have to be a D5!) and Agility (Affected by Wisdom, or is it an armor mod?))

Anyway, thanks for the update, and I look forward for more. Sounds like you have far more of the "system" created than has been revealed thus far.


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## Mark Causey (Nov 15, 2005)

Mmm, break techniques. Keep it coming, KM!


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## I'm A Banana (Nov 15, 2005)

*Q*



> As it has been a while (and for the audience), why does his DR go up when acting defensively? I vaguely recall it being part of how you implemented the AC as DR rules, though I could be mistaken.




Well, FFZ basically splits every AC bonus into AC and DR a la _Unearthed Arcana's_ rules. Which means that, normally, when taking Full Defense, FFZ characters gain +2 AC/+2 DR. Knights gain some extra special things they can do with Full Defense -- like gaining a bigger bonus, and covering others, and attracting magic....



> It will be very interesting (for me anyway) to see how some of those stats were calculated (some are quite simple, like the AB for the sword appears to follow standard 3E BAB+STR MOD, but others a little mysterious, like HP (which under 3e would have to be a D5!) and Agility (Affected by Wisdom, or is it an armor mod?))




You forgot Weapon Focus!  It's safe to say that, at first level, this martial class has equivalent to +0 BAB. The plan right now for HP is to be awarded as a bonus rather than rolled, which means Knights actually have the highest HP in the game (along with some other classes). Agility is affected by an Armor mod, but it's basically Initiative. That -6 is a problem because someone with a high enough Agility actually gets multiple actions in a round.

This guy will get a single attack. He'll hit the vulnerable (and potentially break their stuff) and deal a significant amount of damage. And few creatures will touch him. 

Remember, 2 FFZ levels is roughly equal to 1 D&D level, so this guy is technically Level 1/2, or about in line with a Warrior/Aristocrat/Expert kind.



> Anyway, thanks for the update, and I look forward for more. Sounds like you have far more of the "system" created than has been revealed thus far.




Mmm-hmm! I'm still hard at work on the Tribes, but the years of work I've invested in this definately haven't gone to waste.  I have the system okay, now it's just plugging in the peices and testing it out.


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## Cynlas (Nov 17, 2005)

Yeah, I forgot the WF feat until after posting... I hate it when I do that.  :\ 

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how it all works. Am I reading it right that this char only needs 250 XP to hit level 2? Or do the Breaks have an XP cost to learn in addition to level minimums?

BTW, what armor is this char wearing?

fun fun fun..


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## I'm A Banana (Nov 18, 2005)

All that is a feature of the FFZ XP system, which gives you twice the total levels when compared to standard d20. Which means that 1,000 XP doesn't give you level 2: It gives you level 4.

And he's wearing the heaviest armor in the game, plus a shield. Knights are a defensive class, after all.


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## Cynlas (Nov 19, 2005)

Kewl Beans.

I also like the ability for this class to attact magic away from other targets that you mentioned, really makes it the defender class it is in the vgs. Sounds like this class will actually pull off what certian 3e PrCs were trying to accomplish.

Also, the "reduced" HP isn't really so bad when you consider its the equivalent of a 1/2 level figther. in the long run, the "converted" hp will end up being a lot higher than a rolled HP of a 3e fighter, assuming that the Knight will earn 5 HP per level...

Are you using a similar mechanic for all the classes, so that, for example, a Black Mage would earn 2 HP per level (1/2 static down of D4), or is it less strictly based on 3E than a true cross corelation? Given the sheer number of classes, and your "heavy HP" class is set at "5", then there doesn't seem to be much "room" for a wide variety of HP. Is this one of the class features, then, that will not be earned at each level-up? 

Another "side" question regarding thoughts on BAB; in the FF VGs, White Mages fought (pysically) about as well as their Black counterparts, which is quite unlike the DnD assumption of warrior-preists who are better than scholastics (mages), but not quite up to par with warriors, giving them a mid-range attack ability. Are you going to follow the D20 assumption, or stick to the more appropriate (imho anyway) "poor" bab system for the White Mages (or like UA's variant cloistered cleric)?

Well, thats all for the moment, have other stuff to accomplish before wife gets home.


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## Enchelion Derabdur (Nov 22, 2005)

I'm glad to see this is still going, I cant wait to see the other jobs.


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## Mark Causey (Nov 22, 2005)

KM,

Will you be including methodologies for tweaking/dialing your system? Like a 'how to make a new job' or a 'appropriate new concepts' section?


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## I'm A Banana (Nov 24, 2005)

> Are you using a similar mechanic for all the classes, so that, for example, a Black Mage would earn 2 HP per level (1/2 static down of D4), or is it less strictly based on 3E than a true cross corelation? Given the sheer number of classes, and your "heavy HP" class is set at "5", then there doesn't seem to be much "room" for a wide variety of HP. Is this one of the class features, then, that will not be earned at each level-up?




The plan right now is for there to be five tiers for HP and MP, from 1/level to 5/level. However, some classes get bonus CON points, increasing their overall hp.

There isn't a great vareity in HP. Enough to make a difference, when taken with other factors, but still on an even enough keel that a party can face a challenge of an equal level and come out using only a certain fraction of their rescources.



> Another "side" question regarding thoughts on BAB; in the FF VGs, White Mages fought (pysically) about as well as their Black counterparts, which is quite unlike the DnD assumption of warrior-preists who are better than scholastics (mages), but not quite up to par with warriors, giving them a mid-range attack ability. Are you going to follow the D20 assumption, or stick to the more appropriate (imho anyway) "poor" bab system for the White Mages (or like UA's variant cloistered cleric)?




White mages are firmly in the "spellcaster" BAB, though they have slightly better damage from weapons, usually. The job list has gone through some changes, however, and now there exists a "Bishop" job for those warrior-spellcaster hybrids.



> Will you be including methodologies for tweaking/dialing your system? Like a 'how to make a new job' or a 'appropriate new concepts' section?




Modularity is HUGE in FFZ. It has to be -- you should be able to pick and choose and add and subtract enough to get a good feel for any of the FF worlds that we've seen. There's no real specific plans, but each section is full of general advice, and the simplicity makes everything pretty transparent, so it's definately not an arduous process.


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## I'm A Banana (Nov 30, 2005)

Okay, something I'm kind of excited about that I can't wait until the Tribes chapter is done to release (honestly, I've only got about 1/4 more to go!):

The FFZ Initiative system.

Initiative score is 1d20 + Dexterity + Agility - Weight. (Dex + Agi - Wt gives you your Initiative Modifier). If this results in an initiative less than 1, you concede your turn, taking the "wait" action. One cycle of initiative (from highest to 0) is a round. Each initiative score during that round is a single creature's turn.

A character can have more than one initiative score (e.g.: more than one turn in a round). If the result of his initiative -20 is still more than 1, he gets a second initiative turn on that score. If he can subtract 20 again and still be over 1, he gets a third initiative turn. This continues until he can no longer subtract 20 and be more than one.

Initiative counts down from highest to lowest. Performing actions has an effect on your initiative score from round to round as follows. These affect *every* intitiative you have, even if you have more than one, and the moment your initiative drops below 1, you cannot perform any more actions in that round.
	-- A full-round action gives you a -10 penalty to your initiative score.
	-- A standard action gives you a -5 penalty to your initiative score.
	-- A partial action gives you a -5 penalty to your initiative score.
        -- Most spells have a casting time that serves as a penalty to your initiative score.
	-- A free action gives you no penalty to your initiative score.
	-- The "wait" partial action gives you a +5 bonus to your initiative score.
	-- The "wait" full-round action gives you a +10 bonus to your initiative score.

On rounds following the first, this process is repeated, but the adjustments from round-to-round do not change. Thus, if you had an initiative score in one round of 16, and you took a full-round action, your initiative score in the next round is 6. If you take another full-round action, you will spend the third round "waiting" as a full-round action, since your initiative will be -6. After this wait, your initative will be at 4 the next round, because the wait gives you a +10. Skilled warriors make the most of every round without running into negative Initiative, knowing when to delay and when to act. Losing an entire round will almost always hurt you more than simply waiting for a partial or full-round action.

Let's do an example of someone with more than one turn in a round -- say a speedy guy rolled high and his first initiative turn is at 42. Quite possible at high levels with certain character builds.  He gets a turn at 42, a turn at 22, and a turn at 2. If he takes a full-round action at 42 (reducing his score to 32), he gets a turn at 12, and no third turn. If, on the count of 12, he then performs a standard action and a wait, his turns for the second round will be at 32 and 12 again. If he performs a full-round wait at the count of 12, he'll get his turn at 2 back on the next round. 

A slow person who takes his time can also get more than one turn in a round. Say, the knight above did poorly and got a 7 for his initiative score. If he tells his party to hang back behind him, he can wait for 3 rounds (gaining +10 each round) and have an initiative of 37 during the 4th round. Then he can charge forward and level the opposition in one desperate crusade. He can charge as a full round (-10 init, he's now at 27 and 7), and then perform some devestating full-round attack on 27 (another -10 init, he's now at 17), and get to act fairly early in the next round (at count 17). True, for those 3 rounds, he may be vulnerable, but that's where grey magic and curses come into play -- even if they can be healed, they eat up actions and reduce their overall effectiveness.

That probably needs some clarifying, but I like the way it clicks overall.


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## Mark Causey (Nov 30, 2005)

Indeed, it does seem to form a nice, circular initiative system. I'd suggest having players keep out 2d10 as their 'initiative dice' so that they can keep up with their next initiative, and the GM might keep multiple sets on index cards or such, and combat would always be 'Who has the next highest number?' It seems pretty inspired. Good job!


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## Cynlas (Dec 1, 2005)

Interesting. 

It makes sense, though I am a little confused in your example where the char took a standard action, and then _also_ took a "wait" 







> If, on the count of 12, he then performs a standard action and a wait...



 Though if the "and" should be "as", it would follow with what I understand of the rest of the intent of the system. 'Course, I may have just missed something somewhere.   

Don't know if any of you played Spacemaster, but in Star Strike (the space ship-to-ship sub-system) there was a sheet that tracked your ships' various statuses from round to round, such as momentum/drift, attitude, altitude, ect. Anyway, I'm already re-invisioning a part of that sheet into an initiative tracking sheet, where the players would track their overall initiative with some sort of tokens, which they would shift up and down as they perform actions. This way, they can keep it live (and not have to re-write their init every action, just slide a token to the appropriate slot..), and still be simple (and fast) enough for play. 

Any idea where you anticipate or designed a top limit on possible initiative ranges? Is a 100 or higher possible even at the highest levels? 

Can't wait for more...


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## Cynlas (Dec 1, 2005)

Another quick question for you;

If the additional actions are based on a -20 modifier, why did you designate the "Full Round Action" as being only a -10 initiative modifier?

(Yes, "Flavor" is an acceptible answer   ), though from a purely mechanical pov, having the multiple action modifier being exactly twice the modifier for the "largest" action makes a bit of sense too.

Also (as in "New Question"); if someone with a negative init is forced to perform a wait action, _when_ do they actually do it? For example, they start with a -6 init, they cannot act this round, so do they effectively "wait" on the first round, or are they spending the second round actually "waiting", and can perform an action on the third round (when they have enough positive init to act). Also, in this case of a "forced" wait, does the character/player get to choose what kind of wait (partial or full), or is it likewise a pre-determined option (like always a partial, necessitating several rounds of waits if their negative init is sufficient enough)?

I guess the issue is, especially for the waits, when does the init modifier take effect (beginning of round, end of round, at the modified init rank)? In most cases, an init expenditure obviously takes effect instantaneoulsy/simultaneously at the action; but in the case of the forced waits it seems a bit less cut and dry to me.

Thanks for the update.


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## Cynlas (Dec 1, 2005)

Ok, another question;

Is it through this initiative system that you intend to implement certain grey magic effects? Haste and Slow seem pretty obvious, but how about "Stop" (assuming that you will have that spell)? If so, _how_ will it manipulate the system? Will it be a base -100 (or whatever) mod to init, forcing the char to wait until they are back to a positive init; or simply disallow any actions (including and _especially_ "wait") until the duration of the spell is over?

Sorry, I'll stop the questions for now so you can get back to finishing the Tribes...


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## I'm A Banana (Dec 3, 2005)

First, catpeople:

Linkie

Next, answers!



> It makes sense, though I am a little confused in your example where the char took a standard action, and then also took a "wait"




Not entirely. Like in the FFTactics games, you can wait for a full round, or just part of one (still moving or spellcasting, for instance). So if someone executed an attack, and then "waited" instead of moved, that nets out at a 0 modifier. Or if someone moved and then waited, that would net a 0, too. So "waiting" is actually an action you can take, either as a full-round, standard, or partial action. I think a good high-level feat would let you "wait" as a free action, giving you a bit of a bonus to Init without spending time on it.



> Anyway, I'm already re-invisioning a part of that sheet into an initiative tracking sheet, where the players would track their overall initiative with some sort of tokens, which they would shift up and down as they perform actions. This way, they can keep it live (and not have to re-write their init every action, just slide a token to the appropriate slot..), and still be simple (and fast) enough for play.




Not a bad plan. Tokens, dice-counters, all work fine. If I were to make sheets for my campaign (and I probably will), I'd just have a table, with the columns being rounds and the names being rows, since it's pretty easy to figure out when you go next from your highest intiative score.



> Any idea where you anticipate or designed a top limit on possible initiative ranges? Is a 100 or higher possible even at the highest levels?




There's no built-in upper limit like there's no built-in upper limit to total attack roll bonus. But there is a range that can be kind of expected at every level. The quickest characters probably won't be gaining more than 3 turns in a round, not including powers like X-Fight, Doublecast, etc. You could probably engineer a melee-damage-centered thief or ninja, who pumps out more damage per round by virtue of having more actions in which to do it. Such keeps quite in line with the series.

That said, the knight will hit more reliably, more often, and for more damage when he does hit. 

Most of the time, you won't have to deal with more than one turn in around, except possibly for the lucky rollers or the characters built from the ground up for lickety speed. Chronists, thieves, ninjas, maybe idols...



> If the additional actions are based on a -20 modifier, why did you designate the "Full Round Action" as being only a -10 initiative modifier?




The two modifiers are kind of unrelated.

Basically, a "normal round" takes place on counts 20-1. The usual range of a d20 roll, without modifiers. Especially fast characters can go before the round actually begins (on counts greater than 20), and then still get to go during the round (on counts less than 20). Effectively, fast characters can get 2 or 3 extra 1-20 ranges in which to act.

Taking any action, as normal in the series, causes a delay. In a system with ATB, this is easy to do, but it's hard to track combat with a stopwatch around a table, ya? So in FFZ, it's represented with those modifiers (which I'll probably call Delay Penalties or somesuch). 

So if you don't take any action, you get to act sooner next round. And if you only take a bit of an action, you can get away without a delay. But if you spend all your energy in your turn, you're going to have to wait longer to be able to recover that.



> I guess the issue is, especially for the waits, when does the init modifier take effect (beginning of round, end of round, at the modified init rank)? In most cases, an init expenditure obviously takes effect instantaneoulsy/simultaneously at the action; but in the case of the forced waits it seems a bit less cut and dry to me.




This is part of it that might need the most clarifying. Think of it as a character's number of turns/round...this score is slightly randomized each round, and can be raised or lowered with certain actions in the round. They have a first turn, sometimes a second turn, rarely a third (and a fourth only for the GODS!)

The init modifier takes effect more or less instantly. A character with a 16 initiative who takes a full-round wait on his first turn will now have a 26 initiative, giving him a second turn on 6. Not next round -- this round. So when 6 rolls around, he can take his second turn. If his second turn is an attack and a wait, his score remains 26, giving him two turns on his next round, too. If his second turn is a full-round spell, his score drops to 16 again, giving him only one turn on the next round. He's already taken his first turn this round, and his score isn't high enough to grant him another. If his second turn is a full-round wait, his score increases to 36. This isn't enough for a third turn, and he's already had the two that an init of 36 gives him, but he gets two turns in the next round (at 36 and 16). If his first turn the next round is a full-round wait, he gets two more turns in the same round (at 26 and 6, now that his total initiative is 46). 

Normally, this won't happen. Can you imagine a D&D character doing nothing but chilling there for three actions? And FFZ's abstract combat makes everyone much more vulnerable to potential attack, making it even less likely. Some of the tough characters with high HP might be able to get away with it, but the weight of their armor and their lack of Agility and their generally low Dex will mean that this is more compensating than actually getting high numbers. Some spellcasters might also risk it (especially with knights and paladins and white magicians guarding them), but the delay on their spells is almost as bad as the combined problem the tanks face, putting them in the same boat. High Dex characters can continue to delay, but then they're robbing the party of their most valuable asset (multiple actions) by just standing there. Sure, they could get 5 turns in a round, but generally a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush -- a turn now is worth two turns in three rounds. Especially when the front row is being hard-hit and the white mage is having trouble keeping up. 

Furthermore, this kind of complex initiative is only possible because of the abstract combat system. Without having to worry about minis placement and mapping, you can worry about timing and flow, giving things a much more rhythmic, musical feel to it. It's not so much where you strike from as when you decide to strike. You may not get to attack every turn. That's fine. Time your attacks to have the most effect. *use* that initiative!



> Is it through this initiative system that you intend to implement certain grey magic effects? Haste and Slow seem pretty obvious, but how about "Stop" (assuming that you will have that spell)? If so, how will it manipulate the system? Will it be a base -100 (or whatever) mod to init, forcing the char to wait until they are back to a positive init; or simply disallow any actions (including and especially "wait") until the duration of the spell is over?




You got it. Since "waiting" counts as an action, disallowing actions as Stop and Sleep would do, disallows "waiting." Your initiative is locked in place, since you can't take any actions.

Though the idea of granting massive negative initiative is interesting, and might at least give the player something to do while he waits for the effects to wear off.

Haste = +20 Init.; Slow = -20 Init. 

As usual, the critters that gain the most benefit are those that are already the best. Haste your Ninja and watch him pump out 8 attacks in a round. Slow the caller and you can sit secure knowing they won't get their big spells off. Of course, haste the caller and they're going to be protected from the slow. Slow the ninja and they won't be able to benefit from haste. For every rock, there's a paper, and for every paper, a scissor. Gray magic, of course, negates these, and white magic (like Esuna) can overcome that, too. But you're using rescources. That Esuna is one less Cura spell the white mage can cast, one step closer to weakening the enemy Samurai, a shift of the battle in your favor. 

Gray magic (and effects like it) are key in FFZ in a way they aren't often in the games. Who wastes time with status magic? Those who don't want to be shredded by the first uber-buffed monster ninja/black mage that crosses their path, that's who.


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## Cynlas (Dec 3, 2005)

Hiya



> The two modifiers are kind of unrelated.



 True enough. My question was aimed at the very loose relationship caused by the basic relationship of definitions. Typically (from what has been defined so far), a full round is, effectively, a 20 point initiative time-frame (abstractly, not looking at literal time correlation) which can be expanded due to modifiers, but still have a "natural" state of 1-20. As such, my first impulse would be to consider a "full round" action to take up (as it were) a full initiative round, ie 20 points. It was not as though the concepts were analogous, but somantically linked by the terminology used. However, I later saw that the 10-point "cost" for a "full round" action made more sense (though I can't recall exactly why at this point.. I really should write this stuff down) both thematically _and_ mechanically. I would have dropped it, but I don't really like to go back and edit posts (habit formed on other boards where you have a short time limit to edit, and can't if the post was responeded to). The second assumption spawning the question was the 3E "refocus" action, which grants a +20 to initiative due to the character taking the time to "wait" one round to re-establish their init.



> Though the idea of granting massive negative initiative is interesting, and might at least give the player something to do while he waits for the effects to wear off.



 Was just a thought. The only reason for it would be to simulate the ability of certain characters being able to resist those types of effects more; but such is not really (that I could ever tell) an accurate reflection of the spirit of magical effects in FF. Basically, if you wanted your fast character types to be able to shrug off time effects better than your slower characters, the massive modifier system would be useful (if not simpler), especially if they rolled init every round (getting both the "wait" benes and their init mods to "shake it off"). 

Speaking of which, to clarify what I am reading; how often does init get rolled? Once per "combat" as in 3E; or once each round? I had assumed once a combat, but not so sure now.



> A character with a 16 initiative who takes a full-round wait on his first turn will now have a 26 initiative, giving him a second turn on 6. Not next round -- this round.



 Right, got that... 







> So when 6 rolls around, he can take his second turn. If his second turn is an attack and a wait, his score remains 26



 Ok, I got the idea that if he then waits with his second action, he restores/maintains a base init of 26; where I am getting lost is in the "attack and wait" part. Assuming he attacks on "6", would not this immediately reduce his init, thereby ending his actions this round, or is it because he still has an effective init of "1" (6-5=1) that allows the "wait" action to occur now, and wash the attack's init mod?

Thanks for the info. Like the mithra too.


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## I'm A Banana (Dec 6, 2005)

> Speaking of which, to clarify what I am reading; how often does init get rolled? Once per "combat" as in 3E; or once each round? I had assumed once a combat, but not so sure now.




It's once per combat. That sets the initiative of your first turn.



> Ok, I got the idea that if he then waits with his second action, he restores/maintains a base init of 26; where I am getting lost is in the "attack and wait" part. Assuming he attacks on "6", would not this immediately reduce his init, thereby ending his actions this round, or is it because he still has an effective init of "1" (6-5=1) that allows the "wait" action to occur now, and wash the attack's init mod?




Aaah, I see. The modifiers apply after you take your turn. So, on 6, he gets a turn, and afterwards, his total modifiers are applied to his initiative. If an attack is -5 and a partial wait is +5, it nets out to a 0 modifier, keeping his initiative the same.

As another example, someone with a 13 Init could, in theory, cast a spell with a delay time of 20. He'd cast the spell at 13, but his init the next round would be -7, forcing him to wait for a full round (raising it up to 3). He wouldn't loose the casting of the spell, but he might loose future actions.

So, yeah, don't apply the modifiers until after you take your turn.


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## Mark Causey (Dec 6, 2005)

Will you mitigate ultra powerful spells or metamagic with Initiative modifiers?


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## Cynlas (Dec 6, 2005)

> If an attack is -5 and a partial wait is +5, it nets out to a 0 modifier, keeping his initiative the same.



 Right, but aren't those two different "actions"? 

On an init of 6, how is he getting to perform _two_ distinct actions at this initiative turn (an attack (partial action) followed by a wait (partial action))? Yes, a partial wait action performed on their _next_ available turn would "wash" the previous attack, but how is this happening _this_ turn? 

Is the "partial wait" being used as "free action"?

As I understand what has happened, the sample char started with an init of 16. On their turn (at 16), they did a full action wait, changing their init to 26/6, creating a second action for them this round. When turn "6" comes around, they then perform a partial attack, reducing their init to 21/1.

Now where the confusion is:

Option A) According to my understanding, they would not get to do a follow-up partial wait until next round, at turn 21, thereby restoring their init to 26/6 at that time.

Option B) From what I am reading you to say is, on this _same_ round, where the char already did a full wait and a partial attack, that they are _also_ able to perform a partial wait; allowing them to begin the next round with their 26/6 initiative. 

My question, if "B" is correct, is "Why does the char get to perform a _third_ action on the same beginning round?"

New theory; are you veiwing 1 Full Action = 2 Partial Actions; and each initiative turn (such as 26 and 6) grants a character a "Full Action", therefore at any initiative turn a character can perform two "Partial Actions" or one "Full Action"? If so, where do "Standard Actions" fit in (as Partials?)?

Just trying to get it straight in my noggin..


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## Enchelion Derabdur (Dec 6, 2005)

Each "slot" in the initiative order counts as a full round in normal D&D terms (if I am reading this right), so on 6 he used a standard action to attack, and then waited as a move-equivalent action... am I right?


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## Cynlas (Dec 7, 2005)

Yeah, that is what I am starting to think. Not sure why it didn't "click" earlier. Still, will see if that is what KM is intending.


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## Ulden Throatbane (Dec 9, 2005)

I'm very impressed with the work you've done so far.  I can't wait to see the next installment.

/thumbs up


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## Mark Causey (Dec 9, 2005)

I can't wait to see your experience system, Kamikaze Midget. I'm going to compare it to this:

http://www.lawfulneutral.com/sweet20/xp.html


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## I'm A Banana (Dec 12, 2005)

> Each "slot" in the initiative order counts as a full round in normal D&D terms (if I am reading this right), so on 6 he used a standard action to attack, and then waited as a move-equivalent action... am I right?




You got it. Each turn that a character gets in FFZ is the equivalent of a D&D character's "round of actions," in which a character can perform a move-equivalent and a standard action (or some kind of combination thereof). FFZ labels them "partial" and "standard" actions, largely because moving is a lot less important in abstract combat, but they're the same thing. Whenever your turn comes up in initiative, you get those actions.

After you take your turn and use up your actions, the initiative modifiers apply. And if your initiative is high enough to grant you a second turn, and you've only taken one, you get that second turn, too. And after that second turn, the initiative modifiers apply for the actions you took on your second turn.

Each turn grants you a window to do a "set of actions." And when that window is over, the actions you performed will dictate how soon you get to go again, based on how much they delay.



> Will you mitigate ultra powerful spells or metamagic with Initiative modifiers?




FFZ Epic Magic may take millennia to cast....just think of how long it was taking Sephiroth to summon Meteo for those kinds of effects. 

But epic magic in FFZ is something like an artifact in a standard D&D game -- you're going to want to think long and hard about what it does to the story before you have people going around using it. 



> I can't wait to see your experience system, Kamikaze Midget. I'm going to compare it to this:
> 
> http://www.lawfulneutral.com/sweet20/xp.html




....I think you'll like what FFZ has in store for you, then.


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## Ulden Throatbane (Dec 16, 2005)

Hmm...I just got an insane idea-using the FFZero system in the Planescape setting.  However, the plot I have in mind violates a huge amount of the setting's "canon" so I don't want to talk too much about it.


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## Cynlas (Dec 17, 2005)

> Each turn that a character gets in FFZ is the equivalent of a D&D character's "round of actions," in which a character can perform a move-equivalent and a standard action (or some kind of combination thereof).



 Cool. Thanks for the clarification KM. 



> Hmm...I just got an insane idea-using the FFZero system in the Planescape setting. However, the plot I have in mind violates a huge amount of the setting's "canon" so I don't want to talk too much about it.



 Violates which cannon? Either way, I'd not worry too much about it; I have been integrating FFZ into my current D&D campaign as the "crunchy" bits are released without detriment. When the whole is released, I will start anew with a fresh world for running FFZ; but until then, it works out pretty good so far. Though I suppose leaping Dragoons running amok in Sigil may present a clash in _style_...like Pipi Longstocking at a Goth convention   

As our group is taking a short D&D break to let one of our players try his hand at GMing (playing SPAM-2E), I haven't had a chance to introduce the new init system yet (and it will have to be (minimally) modified somewhat due to no current Agility scores or the intended equipment modifiers). Depending on how long he wishes to take with SPAM, we will either resume the campaign, or start the FFZ campaign (depending on the level of completeness by then). No rush KM, just looking forward to launch date (I preferr qual to quant anyday)


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## Ulden Throatbane (Dec 17, 2005)

Cynlas said:
			
		

> Violates which cannon? Either way, I'd not worry too much about it; I have been integrating FFZ into my current D&D campaign as the "crunchy" bits are released without detriment. When the whole is released, I will start anew with a fresh world for running FFZ; but until then, it works out pretty good so far. Though I suppose leaping Dragoons running amok in Sigil may present a clash in _style_...like Pipi Longstocking at a Goth convention





Actually, I think the style of Planescape would mesh very well with FFZ: the planes and factions are perfect vessels for giving form to common Final Fantasy themes, and Sigil's atmosphere is not all that different from Midgard's; I do suppose that mechanics would have to be tweaked so Callers in Sigil aren't useless   

What I meant by "violate the cannon" was that the _plot_ I had in mind tosses several premises about the setting out the window.  But then, it shouldn't matter what others think about my alterations if it makes for a good story     I'm just a bit concerned about being ripped a new one while I'm still new to this forum.


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## Mark Causey (Jun 6, 2006)

Kamikaze Midget,

Are you still subscribed to this message? Is there a status update?


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 2, 2006)

Vilcomen to Chapter Seven!

The article is going to be about re-inventing and simplifying the character classes and advancement in D&D, but I also want to talk a little bit about how story defines a character in FFZ.

In D&D, measured awards come in the form of XP and GP, both of which you get for beating up something and taking it's stuff.

FFZ has XP and Gil, but neither is where this shines. Gil, for one, is mostly awarded to cover the cost of buying new equipment and training, staying at the inn, and buying expendible magic items (potions and grenades and the like). XP is kind of to be expected at a regular rate, and is fully in the hands of the individual player, rather than the GM (who shouldn't usuall tell you which job you have to be). 

The story, however, awards AP. Which, in this terminology, is called Ability Points.

AP is in the hands of the GM, in the hands of the storyteller, and can have deep effects on your character. The menu of available awards that you can buy with AP is in the hands of the GM. The monsters he has you face can give you certain abilities -- if you face off against a lot of demons, you will have a lot of abilities related to and derived from demons. You will wield blessed weapons (spending AP on the "Blessed Equipment" ability), you may be resistant to fire (spending AP on the "Fire Resistance" ability), and you will probably have a very aware mind (spending AP on the "Muddle Resistance" ability). If you explore the demons for long enough, you may find a long-lost hero of your people (spending AP on the "Heroic Ally" ability), or may find some ancient treasure of great power (spending AP on the "Legendary Equipment" ability). 

In effect, this works like placed treasure. Dragons will have different treasure than humanoids who will have different treasure than fungus-monsters. Except whereas these are loose items in D&D, they are inherent abilities in FFZ, that become part of the characters as they face off against these threats.

This helps emphasize a theme for the game, and as a game gets a theme, and things start reinforcing that theme, it seems more and more like a story. For instance, if you were facing off against a lot of demons, you could be crafting a theme of "Fallen Lights," where the main villain is a once-great retainer to the noble king, but who has betrayed him in the midst of some powerful war for the benefits the demons could offer. Thus, as the party faces off against the villain's minions, they gain abilities related to the theme, abilities about darkness and sin and the choice whether or not to fall deeper into it (abilities like the Dark Equipment ability, or the Penitentce ability or the Conversion ability).

Just as the world is changed by the character's stories, so the characters are changed by what happens in the world. 

It's something you could even adopt for a D&D game without too much effort. Just take care to tailor the treasure to reflect the challenges you plan on having them face. FFZ's system of Award Menus makes this easier for a GM, but a little browsing (and creative use of occasional intelligent or cursed items) can tell you which items will reflect the kind of theme you're trying to build. 

Oy, this was a lot of work. I'm off to post an article about it, but download, enjoy, and ask away! Tell me what you think about the Black Mage, ask about the spells and stuff (I've got a few written up, not a whole list, but I've got a good idea of how I want them to look), I'll be happy to answer.


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## Cynlas (Jul 2, 2006)

It Lives! IT LIVES!!!

Yea!!!


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## Cynlas (Jul 2, 2006)

Wow. Are you going to be writing up all the classes..er, Jobs, like this? I can see why it took so long. It is nice to be able to put things into context.

Great work, KM.   

Just a further question, do you plan on including the string of quick casting abilities with the RDM too (as this seems to be a classic feature of the more recent versions of the job)? 

I like that the once bland class..er, job of spellcaster now has its own abilities in addition to the spellcasting (granted, they augment the spellcasting, but if they are not universal to all the spellcasters, then it still adds more flavor and whatnot to the class, other than the WIZ I/II/III/ect which seem to just be the spell-level markers). For the first time in my gaming career, I actually want to play a single-classed, non-cleric, spellcaster.

Two D20 issues: First, is there no "Spellcraft" skill in FFZ? Second, do the quicken spell or double spell feats not exist in FFZ, and if they do, how do they interact with the BLM's quickcasting abilities?

Anyway, and again; Great Work!!

This much effort and work for a "simple" class, I can only imagine the herculean efforts required of the more complex ones     Still, can't wait for more...


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## Cynlas (Jul 2, 2006)

BTW, I really like the tribe-based effects for the jobs. It really helps provide a better reason for the preference of the job with some races/culture rather than others, and without creating the artificial barier of completely excluding those that don't preferr the class (like in 1e or 2e). Just more RP bits to help flesh out a character...gotta love it! Not only does it help flesh out the class/job, but also the various tribes. 

Also, if this feature continues with all the jobs, then I think that it will help those new to the game/setting will have a much greater knowledge of where they fit into the world, and about their characters than currently exists in most systems (well, without having to purchase and read three or four 200+ pg books of "background" and "society" for their choses race and class...), thereby allowing them to "hit the ground running" with more confidence and enjoyment than usual.

And all this without really "constraining" them with artificial meta-game mechanics (ie, Dwarves cannot be Wizards). Sure those Elvaan Heretics and Dwarven Occultists are going to be rare, but they do/can exist...


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 3, 2006)

> Wow. Are you going to be writing up all the classes..er, Jobs, like this? I can see why it took so long. It is nice to be able to put things into context.




Hehehe, thanks. I do plan on investing this much into every future job. However, now that I have some of the advancement complexities hammered out, I think it'll go a lot smoother. It wasn't the writing that took the time, it was the math! 



> Just a further question, do you plan on including the string of quick casting abilities with the RDM too (as this seems to be a classic feature of the more recent versions of the job)?




Yep, the Red Mage will get some very similar powers. He'll also be getting some powers like a white mage's. And some like a bard's. Because he is the bannana split of jobs, a little bit of everything. 



> Two D20 issues: First, is there no "Spellcraft" skill in FFZ? Second, do the quicken spell or double spell feats not exist in FFZ, and if they do, how do they interact with the BLM's quickcasting abilities?




Spellcraft is just a sub-genre of "Craft". Craft works off of the material you're working in FFZ, so there's Craft (stone), Craft (wood), Craft (ice), Craft (magic). With that last you can do things like create magic items and golems and other wonder-works. So BLMs get it, after a fashion.  Depending on what role Craft (magic) will have further in the game, I may end up separating it out, but at the moment it's another way to make stuff.

Metamagic feats like that do exist, but they don't work when a black mage uses their quick-casting abilities. Specifically, they can't be used if you're already taking a full-round or fast action that round. So they're available when a black mage wants to use any spell (not just black magic), but doesn't want to hassle with spending the whole round doing it. And their requirements are high enough that a black mage will already have Doublecast by the time he gets to Quicken. 



> This much effort and work for a "simple" class, I can only imagine the herculean efforts required of the more complex ones Still, can't wait for more...




Designing the caller is actually like designing one different class for every possible summon. It might be a while before I get to that one. 



> BTW, I really like the tribe-based effects for the jobs. It really helps provide a better reason for the preference of the job with some races/culture rather than others, and without creating the artificial barier of completely excluding those that don't preferr the class (like in 1e or 2e). Just more RP bits to help flesh out a character...gotta love it! Not only does it help flesh out the class/job, but also the various tribes.
> 
> Also, if this feature continues with all the jobs, then I think that it will help those new to the game/setting will have a much greater knowledge of where they fit into the world, and about their characters than currently exists in most systems (well, without having to purchase and read three or four 200+ pg books of "background" and "society" for their choses race and class...), thereby allowing them to "hit the ground running" with more confidence and enjoyment than usual.
> 
> And all this without really "constraining" them with artificial meta-game mechanics (ie, Dwarves cannot be Wizards). Sure those Elvaan Heretics and Dwarven Occultists are going to be rare, but they do/can exist...




I'm determined to have the tribe not be as minor a choice as race is in D&D.


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## Mark Causey (Jul 3, 2006)

Is there a pdf link for more material as there was in previous chapters?


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 3, 2006)

Yeah, it's in my sig....though you may need to bounce around a bit to see my sig, since it's set to only appear 1/page.


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## magic_gathering2001 (Jul 3, 2006)

The work you've done is really nice KM, I can't wait to see how it'll turn out.

About the initiative system, why don't you simply have it so that the person with the highest initiative acts and have initiative penalties for each action (like you have but without the inclusion of rounds) and then make characters wait if they have negative initiative.  It might work if wait let X other characters go before your initiative was counted.


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 3, 2006)

> About the initiative system, why don't you simply have it so that the person with the highest initiative acts and have initiative penalties for each action (like you have but without the inclusion of rounds) and then make characters wait if they have negative initiative. It might work if wait let X other characters go before your initiative was counted.




Not sure I can wrap my head around what you're saying. Not to have rounds, just to have whoever at the moment has the highest Init go next? Could work, but rounds are useful for more than tracking Init, too. Things like durations of spells and effects.

Though to be honest, the real wall to that development is more how hard it is to explain the new Initiative system by itself.  If I toy with the d20 standard too much, I risk addiing complexity for no real benefit. Cyclical rounds have been with RPing since it's inception, and if it ain't broke....


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## Mark Causey (Jul 3, 2006)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Yeah, it's in my sig....though you may need to bounce around a bit to see my sig, since it's set to only appear 1/page.




Heh. I looked at your sig, but the bottom was Chapter 4, and didn't think to look above it


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 3, 2006)

Ha! My clever tricks were too much for you!


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## Mark Causey (Jul 3, 2006)

I don't envy the work ahead of you, KM ... add any one class or tribe and you've got a cascading amount of work. Still, it's the most flavorful FF translation I've seen. Again, keep it up!

I can't remember ... is level 50 the cap on classes or also the character cap as well? If you made the cap for characters 99, you could guarantee that a dual classed character didn't get their secondary class's ultimate ability ... I don't know if that's a design concern or not, though!


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 4, 2006)

> I don't envy the work ahead of you, KM ... add any one class or tribe and you've got a cascading amount of work. Still, it's the most flavorful FF translation I've seen. Again, keep it up!




Aye, but it's probably worth it. To make each tribe unique, to give each job it's place....gotta give the labor of love some love. 



> I can't remember ... is level 50 the cap on classes or also the character cap as well? If you made the cap for characters 99, you could guarantee that a dual classed character didn't get their secondary class's ultimate ability ... I don't know if that's a design concern or not, though!




Depends kind of on how you look at it. Level 50 is going to be considered the cap for power, so you won't have anything above and beyond that. However, adding sub-job levels effectively raises the max to 75 (even though sub-jobs don't grant you much more than access to some powers). I like the sounds of a 99 level system, so I'll have to keep that in mind when pounding out the sub-job system in a bit more detail.


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## librarius_arcana (Jul 4, 2006)

adamantineangel said:
			
		

> Kamikaze Midget asked, and now receives.
> 
> This thread is opened to discuss the ongoing creation of a variant ruleset designed to bring forth the flavor of the game series that some of us find very integral and inspirational to our roleplaying experiences, Final Fantasy.




I've only just seen Final Fantasy: Advent Children, and if this is what you are aiming for then I'm in   

(I've played a few FF video games, and if that is the sole aim, I'm not that interested, you know there is a site that is already covering this right?, 

http://www.returnergames.com/    )


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## Land Outcast (Jul 4, 2006)

*WOW*

Haven't read through all of it... but.. still, WOW.

are there chapters 5,6 ? or did I miss something explaining that on my "not reading everything"?


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 5, 2006)

> I've only just seen Final Fantasy: Advent Children, and if this is what you are aiming for then I'm in




Well, AC has a lot of the qualities that make FF a fun genre in general, and the FFZ battle system definately represents the Advent Children combats pretty well. 



> (I've played a few FF video games, and if that is the sole aim, I'm not that interested, you know there is a site that is already covering this right?,
> 
> http://www.returnergames.com/ )




Yeah, I'm well aware of the Returners, even worked for them for a while. But I wanted to work off of the d20 system and keep the game focused on something simple and story-focued, making a whole system, opposed to the Returner's attempts to faithfully translate the mechanics of the games onto pen-and-paper bit by bitty bit. 

FFZ is a similar beast, picks a different focus, and runs in a different direction. You'll get a different kind of experience playing FFZ than playing the Returner's system. One that, I'd hope, is closer to something cinematic and dramatic than mechanic.



> Haven't read through all of it... but.. still, WOW.




Hehehe, thanks a lot.  



> are there chapters 5,6 ? or did I miss something explaining that on my "not reading everything"?




Chapter 5 is the Beastmaster. Chapter 6 is the Bishop. Chapter 7 is the Black Mage.

Chapters 5 - 22 are the Jobs (might have to add in a Job Overview chapter at the beginning or end). These I'm open to doing in almost any order.

Next on the list is going to be either the White Mage, the Knight, the Thief, or the Samurai. A preliminary list of spells might pop in there before too long.  I'm open to suggestions and to answering questions about what I have planned now, too. I've got the system largely designed, just gotta fill in some details.


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## Land Outcast (Jul 5, 2006)

> Chapter 5 is the Beastmaster. Chapter 6 is the Bishop.




and those are available as independant finished chapters?... where?


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## librarius_arcana (Jul 5, 2006)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Well, AC has a lot of the qualities that make FF a fun genre in general, and the FFZ battle system definately represents the Advent Children combats pretty well.
> 
> FFZ is a similar beast, picks a different focus, and runs in a different direction. You'll get a different kind of experience playing FFZ than playing the Returner's system. One that, I'd hope, is closer to something cinematic and dramatic than mechanic.




Cool


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 5, 2006)

> and those are available as independant finished chapters?... where?




Not available yet because the Black Mage was the first job I did, thanks to the requests on this thread (before the crash). So I haven't written them as of now.


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## Land Outcast (Jul 5, 2006)

> Not available yet because the Black Mage was the first job I did, thanks to the requests on this thread (before the crash). So I haven't written them as of now.




Good to know I'm not missing anything


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## Cynlas (Jul 6, 2006)

> I'm open to suggestions and to answering questions about what I have planned now, too.



Well, since you left the door open on that one, and since you have it on the current list, what are your intentions with the theif job? D20 has their primary abilities as simple skills, so are you going to follow that line as well, or make things like "Steal GP" a class ability outside of the Sleight of Hands/Pick Pocket skill, like the FF games tend to? If the latter, how are you distinguishing them so that a non-theif with the appropriate skill cannot simply duplicate the job-ability? 

Also, how are the Bishop and White mage different? I haven't gotten around to playing TA yet, so I am not familliar with the bishop job. 

And finally, are the Samurai's abilities going to be internal or sword-dependant like in FFT? I'd go for the former myself, but thats just me (though perhaps requiring a katana to activate any/all draw ability would be acceptable, with the different swords perhaps modifying a particular samurai ability).


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 6, 2006)

> Well, since you left the door open on that one, and since you have it on the current list, what are your intentions with the theif job? D20 has their primary abilities as simple skills, so are you going to follow that line as well, or make things like "Steal GP" a class ability outside of the Sleight of Hands/Pick Pocket skill, like the FF games tend to? If the latter, how are you distinguishing them so that a non-theif with the appropriate skill cannot simply duplicate the job-ability?




The "Steal X" line of abilties are going to be granted thief abilities that will mostly work off of an Agility check. The "Fingers" skill allows anyone to grab a few coins or hide a dagger. The Steal abilities are basically walking up to a target in combat and just grabbing what you want. Steal GP, Steal Heart, Steal Weapon, Steal Clothes, Steal Abilities....lots of cool potential. 



> Also, how are the Bishop and White mage different? I haven't gotten around to playing TA yet, so I am not familliar with the bishop job.




White mages are healers/defenders/buffers that work largely as spellcasters. Bishops have a limited selection of powerful attack and condition spells (petrification, judgement bolts, the whole OT thing), good armor, and mid-range weapons...they're more military, white mages are more focused. 



> And finally, are the Samurai's abilities going to be internal or sword-dependant like in FFT? I'd go for the former myself, but thats just me (though perhaps requiring a katana to activate any/all draw ability would be acceptable, with the different swords perhaps modifying a particular samurai ability).




The idea right now is to go with a slightly more Cyan/Cloud/Squall kind of Samurai. Powerful mystical sword techniques. So the draw-out abilities will be more internal. 

Though with the way equipment is abstracted, you could easily make it part of the equipment in flavor.


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## Cynlas (Jul 6, 2006)

Sounds great all the way around.


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## GnomeWorks (Jul 6, 2006)

I've been watching this project for awhile now, and I have to say, KM - you're doing one heck of a job. 

One thing I am rather interested in is how you handled the blue mage. I have been a fan of blue magic since I played V maybe four years ago...

Regardless. I have one question regarding blue magic for you.

Do you plan on _Aero_ being a blue spell? And, if you are following the convention of most FF's with the progression of the base black elemental spells, will there exist the same for _Aero_?


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 6, 2006)

> Do you plan on Aero being a blue spell? And, if you are following the convention of most FF's with the progression of the base black elemental spells, will there exist the same for Aero?




Aero will be both a black and a blue spell (hehehe, a bruised spell!) It'll have the same progression of the other elemental spells (spell, spell-a, spell-ra, spell-aga, spell-agara, ultimate element). Of course whether or not the blue mage gets to access those largely depends on what monsters the GM is using, but you wouldn't be playing a blue mage if you didn't accept that little caveat. 

I like the blue mage. I love the caller. I like the complex classes a lot. That's part of why I'm saving them for once I've done the more basic jobs. SAVE THE DESSERT FOR LAST!


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## GnomeWorks (Jul 6, 2006)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Aero will be both a black and a blue spell (hehehe, a bruised spell!) It'll have the same progression of the other elemental spells (spell, spell-a, spell-ra, spell-aga, spell-agara, ultimate element). Of course whether or not the blue mage gets to access those largely depends on what monsters the GM is using, but you wouldn't be playing a blue mage if you didn't accept that little caveat.




Out of curiosity, for the fourth one, why aren't you using spell-aja? That precedent was set by the GBA port of IV, in case you're wondering. 

The reason I ask is because it was the only numbered set of elemental spells the blue mage had access to, and it has irked me since then that aero was either removed or given to a different color.

I would hope that the blue mage wouldn't have the ability to learn white or black (or gray or green, or whatever) spells from monsters, since that wasn't how it worked in the series. Of course, you've said several times that you're trying to get the feel of the story and avoid emulating the mechanics completely, but I think the blue mage would lose a bit of flavor if they could learn white and black spells using their method.



> I like the blue mage. I love the caller. I like the complex classes a lot. That's part of why I'm saving them for once I've done the more basic jobs. SAVE THE DESSERT FOR LAST!




Hmm, fair enough. 

I look forward to seeing the finished blue mage, whenever you get around to it.


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 6, 2006)

> Out of curiosity, for the fourth one, why aren't you using spell-aja? That precedent was set by the GBA port of IV, in case you're wondering.




Ah, probably because I haven't been able to afford that purchase yet.  What's the qualities of -aja? -ra affects a group, -a is second tier power, -aga is third tier power....what's -aja do? Inquiring minds!



> I would hope that the blue mage wouldn't have the ability to learn white or black (or gray or green, or whatever) spells from monsters, since that wasn't how it worked in the series. Of course, you've said several times that you're trying to get the feel of the story and avoid emulating the mechanics completely, but I think the blue mage would lose a bit of flavor if they could learn white and black spells using their method.




No, I agree completely. Aero is just one of those spells that appears on both the black and blue mage spell list (like how some cure spells appear both on the white and red spell lists). And it needs to be used as blue magic to be learned as blue magic, so the blue mage won't be learning Aero from goblin black mages who may happen to have it. However, he may be learning it from fan-style monster constructs at about the same time that the black mage is discovering it through research. 

Kind of like how a blue mage can learn Explode from a bomb. However, if a caller can summon Bombos (the spirit of bomb monsters), the caller could learn Explode too. 

There are some overlap in spell lists, just as there are in some FF games. Still, like in D&D, there's diminishing returns when you have two people who do the same thing. 



> I look forward to seeing the finished blue mage, whenever you get around to it.




Expect it to appear some time around when the monsters start cropping up, so definately you'll see something before the system is a complete game. It'll probably be one of the first non-essential jobs I do.


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## GnomeWorks (Jul 6, 2006)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Ah, probably because I haven't been able to afford that purchase yet.  What's the qualities of -aja? -ra affects a group, -a is second tier power, -aga is third tier power....what's -aja do? Inquiring minds!




Hmm... difficult to say, really. Spells in IV could be split to affect a group no matter what tier. -aja is above -aga in terms of power. Beyond that, there's really no difference.

It could be comparable to Fire 4 and such from Tactics, I imagine.



> No, I agree completely. Aero is just one of those spells that appears on both the black and blue mage spell list (like how some cure spells appear both on the white and red spell lists). And it needs to be used as blue magic to be learned as blue magic, so the blue mage won't be learning Aero from goblin black mages who may happen to have it. However, he may be learning it from fan-style monster constructs at about the same time that the black mage is discovering it through research.




Good to hear.



> Kind of like how a blue mage can learn Explode from a bomb. However, if a caller can summon Bombos (the spirit of bomb monsters), the caller could learn Explode too.




I am rather intrigued by this concept...



> There are some overlap in spell lists, just as there are in some FF games. Still, like in D&D, there's diminishing returns when you have two people who do the same thing.




I don't disagree with overlap in spell lists. Though I imagine that the base list of blue spells should be relatively distinct from the other lists... _white wind_ and _mighty guard_ are almost solely within the realm of blue magic, and I wouldn't want to see them in the other colors.



> Expect it to appear some time around when the monsters start cropping up, so definately you'll see something before the system is a complete game. It'll probably be one of the first non-essential jobs I do.




I wouldn't call it non-essential, it's almost as quintessential in FFs as the black mage, at this point.  But I'll look for it when you start working on the monsters.


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## Cynlas (Jul 6, 2006)

> SAVE THE DESSERT FOR LAST!



 Ahh... but as a wise sage named Dave used to say:







> Life is Uncertain; eat Dessert first!



 

So, where then does the RDM and DRG/LCR fit in this scheme of yours?


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 6, 2006)

> Hmm... difficult to say, really. Spells in IV could be split to affect a group no matter what tier. -aja is above -aga in terms of power. Beyond that, there's really no difference.
> 
> It could be comparable to Fire 4 and such from Tactics, I imagine.




Oh-ho! Good to know...I'll see what I can do about messin' with that high tier of spells.



> I am rather intrigued by this concept...




One of the (IMHO) awesome things about callers is that they will learn a small, customized spell list based on what orisha they can summon. Those who summon ifrit and shiva will learn fire and ice spells, those who summon Boko will learn speed and air spells, those who summon Anima will learn some dark and water magic, etc. This will slightly reflect the mechanic from FF6 where the summon taught you magic, and help give those who love the materia system something of a fix.  A caller can summon about 15 total orisha, so he'll have about 15 themed lists of spells he can use.



> I don't disagree with overlap in spell lists. Though I imagine that the base list of blue spells should be relatively distinct from the other lists... white wind and mighty guard are almost solely within the realm of blue magic, and I wouldn't want to see them in the other colors.




Right, each magic will be MOSTLY distinct from the other (with the obvious exception of Red). Aero just happens to be one of those situations where they overlap. 



> I wouldn't call it non-essential, it's almost as quintessential in FFs as the black mage, at this point. But I'll look for it when you start working on the monsters.




Hehehe, "non-essential" in terms of a balanced party. Now that I have the base system pretty well complete, I want to be sure to add the typical four classes (tank, healer, blaster, and scout), monsters, awards, all the things that make a game playable. 

There's no denying that the blue mage is pretty key for some distinct FF flava.


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## GnomeWorks (Jul 6, 2006)

Hmm... and speaking of _mighty guard_, I'm curious as to how you're handling technology.

I noticed (or, I think I noticed) that you listed an Engineer class. I'm curious as to how you're going to handle technology, as the only FF to have actual technology was VI, and Edgar's tools were rather limited in scope. The other FF to come close was X, with the Mix and Use abilities, but again, those were rather limited in scope.

The Returners have a rather interesting system, but I am uncertain of how well it would port to d20.

Have you put any thought into this yet?


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## GnomeWorks (Jul 6, 2006)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Oh-ho! Good to know...I'll see what I can do about messin' with that high tier of spells.




If you're interested in other tid-bits of FF lore, I'd be willing to help out. I've played every FF in existence (even the XII demo - I look forward to that one ), and am only three away from finishing all of them.

Of course, since you're undertaking this project, I imagine your track record with the series is probably comparable. 



> One of the (IMHO) awesome things about callers is that they will learn a small, customized spell list based on what orisha they can summon. Those who summon ifrit and shiva will learn fire and ice spells, those who summon Boko will learn speed and air spells, those who summon Anima will learn some dark and water magic, etc. This will slightly reflect the mechanic from FF6 where the summon taught you magic, and help give those who love the materia system something of a fix.  A caller can summon about 15 total orisha, so he'll have about 15 themed lists of spells he can use.




That sounds pretty good.



> Right, each magic will be MOSTLY distinct from the other (with the obvious exception of Red). Aero just happens to be one of those situations where they overlap.




Fair enough. Just glad to see that Aero is in the blue mage's possible repertoire.



> Hehehe, "non-essential" in terms of a balanced party. Now that I have the base system pretty well complete, I want to be sure to add the typical four classes (tank, healer, blaster, and scout), monsters, awards, all the things that make a game playable.
> 
> There's no denying that the blue mage is pretty key for some distinct FF flava.




Hmm, fair enough. In that sense, then I'd agree that the blue mage can be considered not essential.


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## Cynlas (Jul 6, 2006)

> I wouldn't call it non-essential, it's almost as quintessential in FFs as the black mage, at this point.



 I don't know. Like the Dragoon, the blue mage is certainly one of the distinctive (if you can't really say "unique" anymore) FF jobs, but it does not occur with a frequency to say it is really "essential". Obviously, though, it is these classes that help maintain a level of continuity/flavor that scream to the players "This _is_ FF!", so I am very glad KM is including them. As to the blue mage, I am more interested in it as a GM than as a player, though I think I do have one player at my current table that would jump on the blue mage in less than a heartbeat were it available


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## Kavon (Jul 6, 2006)

Hey there, KM 

Your work looks excellent so for, so keep up the good work 

Just had a few questions/comments that popped into my head while looking through your documents.

I was under the impression while playing FFX, that the Ronso people were pretty much *soaked* (maybe a bit exaggerated there  ) in Blue Magic - The party Blue Mage was a ronso, those two ronso's that Kimahri has to fight to reclaim his honor (or whatever, lol) had several blue magic spells that you could Lancet off of them, etc...
So, I was rather surprised to find no mention at all of Blue Magic in your Ronso Tribe description (other than some vague spiritual things, which can mean anything).
Was this a conscious decision? If so, what was the reason to divert them from Blue Magic?


Second thing.. What would Nanaki/RedXIII and Seto (FFVII) be in your system? They're some of the coolest beings in FFVII, I'd say (and just as rare as the cetra, for that matter).

Hmm.. Now that I'm writing this, I reminded myself of some other beings. What about those two sort of beings from FFVIII? Can't really remember the names of them, but I'm talking about those red little beings that like Laguna (and lick blood, was it? hmm), and those artisan people that live in that town underneath the ground.

Just curious how those those three would be handle, and such, as I was seeing more FFX/FFXI/FFTA/maybe FFCC? (haven't played that one) stuff than anything else - bit off balanced in that regard.

Anyway, looking forward to seeing some more stuff! :B


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 7, 2006)

> I noticed (or, I think I noticed) that you listed an Engineer class. I'm curious as to how you're going to handle technology, as the only FF to have actual technology was VI, and Edgar's tools were rather limited in scope. The other FF to come close was X, with the Mix and Use abilities, but again, those were rather limited in scope.




In the "implied setting," I'm trying to take an Eberron-style "A place for everything" kind of philosophy. Thus, there are areas (like where the lufenish live, in the big cities, where the moogles tinker, where the genomes are made) where technology is at a near-sci-fi level, something out of VII or VIII or even, by the looks of the trailer, XIII. To have FF without hints of technology is nearly an anathema to the series....IV had robots and space ships, even the first one had space-time warps. Blending a bit of steampunk/techpunk with the fantasy has been pretty essential to a lot of the series.

That said, there are less civilized areas, areas more reminiscent of the more medieval flavor or even "isolated continent" flavor of some of the games. Technology is part and parcel of the setting, but it doesn't need to be in your face all the time, it can work subtly behind the scenes...you don't need cell phones like VII, but you probably have indoor plumbing and something like electricity.



> The Returners have a rather interesting system, but I am uncertain of how well it would port to d20.




It's a pretty cool system, but it's not used in the most beneficial of ways, and the 'culture' over at Returners hurts them much more than the system does. I'm referencing them for many ideas, and they're a great first run, but I'm trying to steer away from it to ensure FFZ is it's own monster. And it is. It has it's own quirks and gaps and holes, which, I hope, will be less crippling than the ones the FFRPG has. 



> If you're interested in other tid-bits of FF lore, I'd be willing to help out. I've played every FF in existence (even the XII demo - I look forward to that one ), and am only three away from finishing all of them.
> 
> Of course, since you're undertaking this project, I imagine your track record with the series is probably comparable.




I've done my homework, but some of the more recent ones or re-makes I have some trouble getting my facts straight on. I didn't know there was a XIII or a III US release in the works already 'till just yesterday, for instance. 

I do appreciate someone to help me get 'em straight when I drop the gap. 



> I don't know. Like the Dragoon, the blue mage is certainly one of the distinctive (if you can't really say "unique" anymore) FF jobs, but it does not occur with a frequency to say it is really "essential". Obviously, though, it is these classes that help maintain a level of continuity/flavor that scream to the players "This is FF!", so I am very glad KM is including them. As to the blue mage, I am more interested in it as a GM than as a player, though I think I do have one player at my current table that would jump on the blue mage in less than a heartbeat were it available




Right, it's a very iconic FF class, like the caller, the dragoon, the two-weapon-wielding ninja...



> I was under the impression while playing FFX, that the Ronso people were pretty much *soaked* (maybe a bit exaggerated there  ) in Blue Magic - The party Blue Mage was a ronso, those two ronso's that Kimahri has to fight to reclaim his honor (or whatever, lol) had several blue magic spells that you could Lancet off of them, etc...
> So, I was rather surprised to find no mention at all of Blue Magic in your Ronso Tribe description (other than some vague spiritual things, which can mean anything).
> Was this a conscious decision? If so, what was the reason to divert them from Blue Magic?




Not concious. Mostly I just saw no real plot reason why the ronso had so much blue magic, so I didn't bother creating one.  I think it has to do with their bestial, near-monstrous nature in FFX and X-2. Kimahri is tough to center a tribe's mechanics around because he was such a flexible character that really had only a few unique powers to himself (in his section of the sphere grid).

Still, you raise a good point, and it probably bears mentioning a bit more. Expect the tribal adjustments section for the blue mage to have some nice words about it. 



> Second thing.. What would Nanaki/RedXIII and Seto (FFVII) be in your system? They're some of the coolest beings in FFVII, I'd say (and just as rare as the cetra, for that matter).
> 
> Hmm.. Now that I'm writing this, I reminded myself of some other beings. What about those two sort of beings from FFVIII? Can't really remember the names of them, but I'm talking about those red little beings that like Laguna (and lick blood, was it? hmm), and those artisan people that live in that town underneath the ground.
> 
> Just curious how those those three would be handle, and such, as I was seeing more FFX/FFXI/FFTA/maybe FFCC? (haven't played that one) stuff than anything else - bit off balanced in that regard.




Narrowing down the list of tribes was hard, and ultimately was partially arbitrary. I tried to focus on what characters could be, rather than NPC's (I dropped the Hypello tribe that I was really looking forward to!) which kind of forces me to focus more on the latter FF's, with their distinct tribes, and which meant none of those critters from VIII. As for VII's critters, that was part of my reason to make the tribe mechanics so abstract -- so things like quadrupedal races and robot-cats-riding-stuffed-moogle races and potentially-undead-mutant races could be played right alongside each other without forcing you to re-think the whole system.

Though I didn't include Nanaki's tribe, they're definately one of those I'd like to see done, and one that definately wouldn't be too hard to do. Show me what you've got!


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## Exen Trik (Jul 7, 2006)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> The "Steal X" line of abilties are going to be granted thief abilities that will mostly work off of an Agility check. The "Fingers" skill allows anyone to grab a few coins or hide a dagger. The Steal abilities are basically walking up to a target in combat and just grabbing what you want. Steal GP, Steal Heart, Steal Weapon, Steal Clothes, Steal Abilities....lots of cool potential.




So, where does slight of hand fit into all of this, if at all? Or bluff, for that matter?


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 7, 2006)

> So, where does slight of hand fit into all of this, if at all? Or bluff, for that matter?




As of the plans right now, they don't. 

All the uses of "Slieght of Hand" are intact, which means you can still grab an item off of a person with a DC 20 check, which they can notice with an opposed Perception check. However, the Steal abilities don't try to hide what they're doing -- the target knows they've been stolen from, and usually what was stolen the moment you do it. 

In addition, job abilities that are based off of skills suffer the problem, in FFZ, of being useless (or near-useless) to those jobs who don't get the skill. Because you can take Thief as a sub-job to gain the Steal abilities, but you don't usually get the Sleight of Hand skill with that, it makes the job rather useless as a sub-job unless you already have something similar. Basing it off of Agility means that it's based off of something everyone gets at least a little of. 

Of course, since sub-jobs and the Thief are still being developed, this could change, As of now, I'm steering away from basing job abilities on skills very much.


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## GnomeWorks (Jul 7, 2006)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> In the "implied setting," I'm trying to take an Eberron-style "A place for everything" kind of philosophy. Thus, there are areas (like where the lufenish live, in the big cities, where the moogles tinker, where the genomes are made) where technology is at a near-sci-fi level, something out of VII or VIII or even, by the looks of the trailer, XIII. To have FF without hints of technology is nearly an anathema to the series....IV had robots and space ships, even the first one had space-time warps. Blending a bit of steampunk/techpunk with the fantasy has been pretty essential to a lot of the series.




All well and good, but I was trying to get more of a feel for technology from a mechanics standpoint rather than a fluff standpoint.

As I mentioned, you have an engineer class, which almost guarantees that you have some sort of class abilities for them. I'm curious where you went with that, if you've gone there or even thought about it yet.


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 7, 2006)

> All well and good, but I was trying to get more of a feel for technology from a mechanics standpoint rather than a fluff standpoint.
> 
> As I mentioned, you have an engineer class, which almost guarantees that you have some sort of class abilities for them. I'm curious where you went with that, if you've gone there or even thought about it yet.




AAaah. My apologies. 

Anyone can craft most of the items in FFZ with the right combo of feats and skills, of course. Machinists are simply the BEST at crafting. And because of the "KISS" mantra I've adopted, I wanted to make sure that crafting was not an excersize in accounting and bookeeping based on prerequisites, skill ranks, time, and gil. Instead, the inventions "just happen."

To clarify it slightly, it works more like the Craft Points mechanic in UA than anything else. You have a finite number of things you can craft, and a limit on the power of those items based on your level (no 1st-level sub-oribital death-beams, no effectively infinite supplies of low-powered items, either). These items are crafted more-or-less automatically. Mechanists get bonus items in a way very similar to how spellcasters learn spells -- they're simply awarded based on levels. 

What power they have, then, is defined by the type of items available in the campaign. By default, there are things for high-level mechanists to craft that do resemble stuff out of sci-fi (space ships, teleport pads, time loop paradoxes, etc.), but that's at the pinnacle of a long line of items from potions to airships, to constructs and even monsters. Edgar's tools make appearances at relatively low levels (the chainsaw isn't even really that powerful of an item, though it rocked in the game). These are limited in much the same way as spells are -- by a "Tech Rank" rather than a Spell Rank (Tech I, Tech II, Tech III; rather than Wizardry I, Wizardry II, Wizardry II). This also helps define what a Mechanist can actually control in abscence of skill rank -- Int of 10 + the level of the tech. 

Now, because I've wanted to avoid introducing a mechanic that is always better to use than a standard attack (I know this goes against FF canon, but I think there should always be a place for a standard attack), these items do have to use fuel of a sort, if they can be used in combat. Firing an airship canon or powering the chainsaw can use up MP (though generally substantially less than a similar spell) in addition to delays or other limits.

As for abilties other than invention (which covers the tools and Use pretty well), the Mix ability will appear in some form, as will Rikku's famous ability to disable constructs in combat nearly instantly. There's going to be a nice handful of abilities from FFX-2 and FFT's alchemists, too. Mix is going to be tough because of the impossibility of documenting all possible item combos, so will likely focus on the results of the Mix ability, and become something of a random rod-of-wonder style table. There's also item synthesis (a popular staple of the genre by now) to be included, where you'd combine some things to make others, though this will probably fit more in the realm of AP than anything else.


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## librarius_arcana (Jul 9, 2006)

I think D20 Modern (+my BAB to skill thing) May be a better fit for this (at least in the Final Fantasy: Advent Children movie sense)

Just something in the film about Cloud being a Jack-of-trades, 
yet being the best fighter as well


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## Arkhandus (Jul 9, 2006)

Well, y'know, Cloud Stryfe was a failure as a SOLDIER, only managed to become a grunt in the army.  He was mediocre at best.  After the incident in Nibelheim, he managed to get medical attention and recover, then wander around for several years and survive by doing odd jobs and learning miscellaneous skills, in addition to the mercenary work he was best suited for.  Only his unnaturally-enhanced abilities allowed him to become so diverse and also a good swordsman.

He only became a powerful fighter with almost-universally-good physical and mental capabilities after Hojo experimented on him, and did all kinds of intrusive and inhumane things to Cloud's body using Jenova cells, Mako Radiation Therapy, and probably all kinds of genetic mangling with chemicals and drugs and brain-pattern interference.  Hojo tried and partially succeeded in making Cloud a Sephiroth clone, but since Cloud was such a horribly mediocre or sub-par human specimen in the first place, he was on the verge of dying from all the experiments.  If Zack hadn't broken them both out at feeding time when he did, Cloud would have likely died after the next experiment or two.  Zack didn't respond to the treatments so he was going to be disposed of as useless, while Cloud responded significantly to the treatments but was on the verge of death from them anyway.  If Cloud hadn't escaped and been left for dead by the Shinras who thought he was dying already, he wouldn't have gotten the chance to recover and develop his newly-Mako-and-Jenova-cell-enhanced abilities.

So, uh, yeah, Cloud isn't a good example of a typical Final Fantasy character I think, statistically, since he was a mutant-alien freak of nature only barely still human by the time Hojo was done with him.    I don't think Squall, Zidane, or Tidus were quite so universally superior to their comrades, in the later Final Fantasy games.....

I've been playing FF7 again lately, yeah.   

At some point soon I'll probably get around to reading the Final Fantasy Zero stuff in KM's sig, but I know I had at least tried to read some of it many many months ago......


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## librarius_arcana (Jul 9, 2006)

Arkhandus said:
			
		

> Well, y'know, Cloud Stryfe was a failure as a SOLDIER, only managed to become a grunt in the army.  He was mediocre at best.  After the incident in Nibelheim, he managed to get medical attention and recover, then wander around for several years and survive by doing odd jobs and learning miscellaneous skills, in addition to the mercenary work he was best suited for.  Only his unnaturally-enhanced abilities allowed him to become so diverse and also a good swordsman.
> 
> He only became a powerful fighter with almost-universally-good physical and mental capabilities after Hojo experimented on him, and did all kinds of intrusive and inhumane things to Cloud's body using Jenova cells, Mako Radiation Therapy, and probably all kinds of genetic mangling with chemicals and drugs and brain-pattern interference.  Hojo tried and partially succeeded in making Cloud a Sephiroth clone, but since Cloud was such a horribly mediocre or sub-par human specimen in the first place, he was on the verge of dying from all the experiments.  If Zack hadn't broken them both out at feeding time when he did, Cloud would have likely died after the next experiment or two.  Zack didn't respond to the treatments so he was going to be disposed of as useless, while Cloud responded significantly to the treatments but was on the verge of death from them anyway.  If Cloud hadn't escaped and been left for dead by the Shinras who thought he was dying already, he wouldn't have gotten the chance to recover and develop his newly-Mako-and-Jenova-cell-enhanced abilities.
> 
> ...





I've played this game more times than I can keep track of, so I do know the story really well
(And I don't agree with... 



			
				Arkhandus said:
			
		

> So, uh, yeah, Cloud isn't a good example of a typical Final Fantasy character I think, statistically, since he was a mutant-alien freak of nature only barely still human by the time Hojo was done with him.




Most of the team was "not normal" 
Lets just look at this for a mo
You've got...(not counting Cloud)

A talking animal with a firey tail (Red XIII)
Another intelligent talking animal (Cait Sith)
A Cetra, aka an Ancient, and just happens to be the last Cetra (Aerith Gainsborough)
A guy with a gun for an arm (Barret Wallace)
And the rest even though human, are superhuman, ( Tifa Lockhart, Yuffie Kisaragi, Cid Highwind, and even Reno, Rude, and Rufus Shinra (in game, but not in movie) 
and lets not forget Vincent Valentine

That group is not to normal   

And Mojo messed with lots of people (ie Vincent etc, and any and everyone in SOLDIER never mind Kadaj, Loz, Yazoo, and the other remnants etc, 

And btw it's "Cloud Strife" not "Stryfe"   )


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 9, 2006)

"Not Normal" is pretty normal for an FF character, in general. Even in FF6, you have horribly mutated heroes and villains both (a YETI?!). 



> Just something in the film about Cloud being a Jack-of-trades,
> yet being the best fighter as well




In FFZ, this would probably best be represented with his "Samurai" job, and perhaps investing a feat or two in unusual skill choices (skill focus: tinkering comes to mind). He doesn't go around inventing airships like Cid, but he knows his way around the machines.


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## Arkhandus (Jul 10, 2006)

I think part of my point was missed, but meh.  Main point though was that, while all of Cloud's team were talented to some extent, Cloud was still overall superior in abilities, not the most typical member of the party.

One of my friends always names his PCs in tabletop RPGs 'Stryfe' so I'm just much more used to seeing that abnormal spelling, and thought I remembered it starting after he got Final Fantasy VII.


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## GnomeWorks (Jul 16, 2006)

> Anyone can craft most of the items in FFZ with the right combo of feats and skills, of course. Machinists are simply the BEST at crafting. And because of the "KISS" mantra I've adopted, I wanted to make sure that crafting was not an excersize in accounting and bookeeping based on prerequisites, skill ranks, time, and gil. Instead, the inventions "just happen."




That sounds good.



> Now, because I've wanted to avoid introducing a mechanic that is always better to use than a standard attack (I know this goes against FF canon, but I think there should always be a place for a standard attack), these items do have to use fuel of a sort, if they can be used in combat. Firing an airship canon or powering the chainsaw can use up MP (though generally substantially less than a similar spell) in addition to delays or other limits.




Everything up to this point sounds neat.

However, spending MP to fuel technology? I can understand why that would seem like a good idea (and it's more than likely balanced), but - from a flavor perspective - how do you make sense of that?


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 16, 2006)

> However, spending MP to fuel technology? I can understand why that would seem like a good idea (and it's more than likely balanced), but - from a flavor perspective - how do you make sense of that?




MP isn't, of course, the ONLY way to fuel technology. Other ways (steam power, man power, clockwork, chemical power, electricity, whatever) still work. However, the fantastic technologies (airships, teleporters, laser cannons) are the things the PC's are going to have the most exposure to, and those tend to use MP.

I'll go over both flavor and mechanics, but since you asked about flavor first, I'll hit that. The major idea is that the old ancient empires used magical technology -- MagiTek. This fits with the idea that the old ancient imperial forces were great magicians -- dwarves trucked with dark forces, and lufenish are renowned for being sages and spellcasters. Even moogles are deeply in touch with both magic and technology (and, in their case, it doesn't involve being seperate from the natural world). The PC's, in most of their careers, will be making and using MagiTek. One could say that it would be impractical for a Mechanist to make an internal combustion engine -- why bother mining for oil and refining it into gasoline with dangerous explosions when he can take the same basic principle of "spinning an axle" and use MagiTech to accomplish the same thing? 

Now, because the common folk don't generally have access to a lot of this stuff, other technologies are pursued, too. So you get a lot of "background tech": steam power, electricity, etc. This is stuff PC's generally don't get involved in (though, of course, mechanists know about and can tinker with). Thus, you can get situations like in FF6, where magic was forgotten (no MagiTek), but science and technology moved forward (mundane tech). When the Empire re-discovered magic and used it to power walkers and war machines, they were capable of things normal technology wasn't -- elemental beams, TekMissiles, opening rifts in time and space, etc. You can also get situations like in most FF's, where a once-great ancient kingdom had powers that even the present day can't realize (even if the present-day is as advanced enough to have TV's and live feed and people going into space!). 

So, flavor-wise, MP works like a very efficient, easily available, constant fuel source. Like someone could use a windmill to tap brain radiation. It's the source that was tapped for ancient, powerful, fantastic technologies, and it's the source that Mechanists use to power most of their stuff. It's not the source that everyone uses, but it's by far the easiest and most efficient source.

Some tech also uses HP to fuel it, leading to things like Mako energy (Shinra using the planet's HP to fuel technology), which is given a pretty necromantic cast.

You get some very interesting in-character conflicts about Mechanists who carry around things like Magicite (dead gods?) and Materia (crystalized souls?) to power their things, and, of course, those wonderfully wicked empires and corporations that misuse them.  

Mechanically, you get that ever-present ability and you give people stuff to spend it on. First, there's the idea that everyone in FFZ gains some MP at some point, so it's a universal power source -- nearly every person has some to give. Knights can take feats to let them cast spells, frex, so there's no reason they can't hop in a suit of MagiTek armor and ride around town, either.  

You also get the whole "regular attacks aren't meaningless" effect. In this way, once you get a powerful technological item, you still have a reason to drop it and draw your sword, an interesting choice about whether or not you can afford to unleash it.


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 16, 2006)

Also: We Have White Mage.  He's in the sig. And he rocks your face off (can we say free LIFE spells? Yes, I believe we can....).

Knight and then Thief and then Monsters and then Awards and we have a complete game, more or less.


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## Arkhandus (Jul 16, 2006)

Yeah, I'd consider MP to represent the character's available, useable supply of energy from Mako, the Lifestream, or Ether (like in Xenogears; a mysterious energy that's nonetheless useable by machines).  Any device incorporating a bit of MagiTek, or Materia, or crystallized Ether or whatnot could use such energy as a power source, as channeled into it by the wielder.


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 17, 2006)

I'm a bit surprised it's been so quiet, what with the release of the White Mage and all.


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## Mark Causey (Jul 17, 2006)

Silly question, KM, as it might change without notice: Is it Chapter 25 or 26? Sig says one, file says the other.


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## Cynlas (Jul 17, 2006)

> I'm a bit surprised it's been so quiet, what with the release of the White Mage and all.



 That's only 'cause I just got to that part! Off to download...


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## Cynlas (Jul 17, 2006)

Cool. I like the Dwarf ability, and it is even consistent with the animistic premise/philosophy that you took the Wht into. Cool.

Question: For Benediction and Healing Wind; is it current mp, full mp, or did I mis-read (possible considering the speed) simply the amount of mp invested into the use of the ability? 

Also, for benediction, is it the intent to heal HP = 1d4/mp + Cha mod per team member? How many times per day can this be used? Even if only once, it is a cool ability, and something any preistly character should have in some way. But I guess that issue is for another thread...   

Again, great work. Now I gotsa read it more thouroughly..


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## Cynlas (Jul 17, 2006)

Minute eratta: Page counts note "Page Black Mage _x_" on footer.


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## Cynlas (Jul 17, 2006)

Q: Can a Moogle Protector select a new "charge" if the previous one permanently dies? Or, is it simply that because a permanent character death is so rare and monumentous that they never really recover from their bond?


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 17, 2006)

> Silly question, KM, as it might change without notice: Is it Chapter 25 or 26? Sig says one, file says the other.




D*oh. I keep getting different counts. Let's try this:

Chapter 5: The Beastmaster
Chapter 6: The Bishop
Chapter 7: The Black Magician (check)
Chapter 8: The Blue Magician
Chapter 9: The Caller
Chapter 10: The Chronist
Chapter 11: The Dragoon
Chapter 12: The Gambler
Chapter 13: The Geomancer
Chapter 14: The Gray Magician
Chapter 15: The Knight
Chapter 16: The Master
Chapter 17: The Mechanist
Chapter 18: The Mimic
Chapter 19: The Ninja
Chapter 20: The Paladin
Chapter 21: The Reaper
Chapter 22: The Red Magician
Chapter 23: The Samurai
Chapter 24: The Star
Chapter 25: The Thief
Chapter 26: The White Magician

So the file is right, my sig is off. 



> For Benediction and Healing Wind; is it current mp, full mp, or did I mis-read (possible considering the speed) simply the amount of mp invested into the use of the ability?




Healing Wind, as a Limit, doesn't consume MP. Benediction doesn't either. Think of Benediction like the "Health" ability from Bannon in FF6 or the "Pray" ability from Rosa in FF4 -- free healing! Of course, in FFZ, it's not that GREAT of a heal, but still....totally free. 



> Also, for benediction, is it the intent to heal HP = 1d4/mp + Cha mod per team member? How many times per day can this be used? Even if only once, it is a cool ability, and something any preistly character should have in some way. But I guess that issue is for another thread...




They can do it all day long as much as they want. The formula is slightly off in that it's 1d4 per point of Magic score, not mp. So a typical 24th level white mage, with a Magic of 12 (but 96 mp). And it's good you called that out, because that similar terminology could lead to some things being VERY wonky! I'll have to make sure to call that out more clearly in the future, too. So, for instance, when they get the ability, they're healing 12d4 + Cha mod (give or take a d4 or two). Minor (but important!) difference. But, yes, at level 24, white mages can sit around all day and heal. Think of them something like clerics with a bunch of wands of Cure Wounds. 

And regarding the Moogle Protector question. Character death is rare and momentous, but it would be totally fair to allow the moogle to choose a new charge if their old one dies through some fluke of story or fate. Of course, I'd expect there to be a good in-character justification for whoever they chose (or I'd run a little sidequest where the moogle gets a new friend. ).


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## Cynlas (Jul 17, 2006)

> Healing Wind, as a Limit, doesn't consume MP. Benediction doesn't either.



Right, I caught that, but my question was related more to my mistake betwixt "Magic Score" and "Magic Points" as handled below (as if it were based on MP, then the question is "what _MP total_ do you use (max or current) when calculating the effect of these abilities", but since this is not the case...).   



> The formula is slightly off in that it's 1d4 per point of *Magic score*, not *mp*.



Ahh! that _does_ make a difference   My bad, now that I re-read it, it makes more sense, and I suppose that the distinction will become more clear when we have the full production available which explains the Magic score/stat in context and whatnot.



> Character death is rare and momentous, but it would be totally fair to allow the moogle to choose a new charge if their old one dies through some fluke of story or fate.



 Good to know.


> Of course, I'd expect there to be a good in-character justification for whoever they chose (or I'd run a little sidequest where the moogle gets a new friend. ).



 Naturally   

Keep up the great work.

B


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 19, 2006)

The Thief will be next, but I'm in the midst of a move, so it might take a while to get here.


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## Cynlas (Jul 19, 2006)

Well, Life does have to come in somewhere   

One of my players loves theif-types, so it will actually be of use to see and test out the Steal abilities. 

BTW; is the Star Job the bard/dancer for FFZ?


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 22, 2006)

You got that right, Cynlas! Bard (from Edward's HIDE the songstress of FFX-2) and Dancer (from FF5's !Flirt to FFT's potent boogies) combine into one pop-a-rific class....though I'll probably be making it more "classic bard, student of the magic of music" rather than the very Jap-apt but totally wierd pop star of FFX-2....which was hilarious, but come on...


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## Cynlas (Jul 22, 2006)

> ...though I'll probably be making it more "classic bard, student of the magic of music" rather than the very Jap-apt but totally wierd pop star of FFX-2....which was hilarious, but come on...



 Thank you!!! The "X" series was not one of my (or my wife's) favorite additions to the FF universe... (lets just say we are very glad we _rented_ X-2 before/instead-of buying.)

Just thought of something; it isn't really part of the FF series (as far as I can tell), but are you going to be working in any kind of "job" mentality into the jobs? For example, when one plays a "samurai", one typically envisions a warrior following a particular code (Bushido) and thereby acting in a distinct manner; yet in FF, the "Samurai" job comes across as a simple warrior variant. Is there going to be a noticable difference in the play of say, a Knight and a Samurai, in FFZ (that is not based on tactics/mechanical distinctions)? Yes, they are both "honorable" jobs, but the codes/philosophies typically are distinct enough that the "flavor" of the classes is not necessarily reliant upon the class features. Given the social-transparency of most FF games, a samurai and knight operate together without any seeming difference or rationale expected in more "traditional" fantasy settings (which try to feature strong distinctions in cultures)


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 26, 2006)

I've been very careful to make sure that the role of the class in the world is reflected in their abilities. So the knights fullfill a very "defensive military" role in many of the worlds. Thier honor and nobility comes from their close connection to the important figures -- they are the king's guards, they are the palace troops, they are the defenders of the vault, because no one does it better.

The samurai, however, are the ones you send off to battle. Their concept is one of "sword-fu" sort of the idea that using a weapon is an esoteric, magical art rather than a simple tool. They are perhaps the leaders of the military forces, able to understand the subtle magic of conflict and steel in a way that no other troop really can. Not only that, but they are some of the most effective warriors in the game, with their broad selection of heavily damaging bushido techniques and their ability to incapacitate many troops. Their code is one that is representative of your nation to a foriegn land. They are the best of the best, and so are held to a higher standard in combat and in war than most others.

The knights defend the nation at home. The samurai represent the nation's military strength abroad. Which means that they can certainly have some similarities, but that they aren't really the same role at all. They also have distinctly different abilities, from the knight's defensive talents and ability to break the body and mind of an attacker to the samurai's offensive talents and ability to use their sword to call down meteors.


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## Cynlas (Jul 26, 2006)

That works.



> ...use their sword to call down meteors.



Heh!


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 30, 2006)

Yeah, give me a few weeks to get my new computer, and the Thief will be up shortly thereafter.


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## Cynlas (Aug 1, 2006)

Kewl...


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## I'm A Banana (Aug 28, 2006)

I've somewhat shifted gears in the interest of pumping out as much content as possible -- I've dropped the fluff/advice sections of the job descriptions.

They WILL be there, in full glorious form, but I want to worry first and foremost about working them as game elements, and then as pretty pdfs. 

So here's the promised theif.

And, a little bonus, here is the crusader for your viewing pleasure.

I'm going to put up the Dragoon and the Red Mage next. 

I've also managed to change some wording ("attributes" instead of "ability scores") and change the limit system slightly (limits will, from now on, be awarded by Orisha rather than by your job -- I wanted Orisha to play a larger role than they had to this point). I'm also changing around some of the skills, and Each of the drafts also includes a preview "stat block." Which means that, with the thief, crusader, white mage, and black mage, you could officially run a 1st level adventure!

You know what that means, right?

That I am INCHES away from having a complete sytstem. I need to get the skills and feats and awards and items polished up in a codified format, and finish a monster or three, but this bad boy is very close to being ready to playtest. 

In fact, if someone wanted to generate some 1st level characters and post their stat blocks to the thread, it would be possible. Even _recommended_....


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## Cynlas (Aug 31, 2006)

SWEEEEEEEET....

I just noticed your update. I'll see what I can do as soon as I clear my current plate of job apps and stuff .

If I kill off the PCs quick enough next week, I could even get them started on the ffz camp...   (JK)

B


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## Cake Mage (Aug 31, 2006)

*initiative*

I've been following this off and on for a while now and am very interested in seeing its completion.  I have a quick question, not sure if its been answered or not though.  

I'm still not sure how the initiative system works (so far since I know its still work in progress).  Its not the same as 3.5 D&D becuase there are delays and what not.  Is it like White Wolf's Exhalted Join battle system where there are speeds and delays on a "tick" system?


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## Cynlas (Sep 2, 2006)

> In fact, if someone wanted to generate some 1st level characters and post their stat blocks to the thread, it would be possible. Even recommended....



Ok, how 'bout an odd-ball: Durloch, the Dwarf Occultist (I did do an elvann crusader, then noticed you already had a sample crusader, so ...)

Name: Durloch the Old
Concept: Expert Elder
Quote: "Ha! Foolish Chit. This mountain is no pile of inert rubbish, it is a towering inferno of power! Here, let me show you..."
Stat block:
LV1 Dwarf Black Mage
Medium Humanoid (Dwarf)
Agi +1; Senses Perception +0
Languages Common and Dwarven
Defense 11, flat-footed 10, touch 11; Armor 0
Hp 5
Limits Adamant Guard
Resistance +0
Special Defense None
Melee Staff -1 (1d4-1)
Ranged As Spell
Atk -1
Atk Options None
Special Actions Wizardry
Mag +4
Mp 3
Spells level 0*
Attributes Str 8(-1), Dex 12 (+1), Con 14 (+2), Int 16 (+3), Wis 10 (+0), Cha 13 (+1)
SQ Adaptable (Hume racial trait)
Feats Tactical Strike
Skills (Rank 3) Craft (Stone) +7, Endurance +6, Scribe +7, Use Magic Device +5, Knowledge (Magic) +7
Posessions Staff, Robes
Habitat Temperate Mountain
Elemental Attunement The dwarf gains +1 to damage caused by all Earth spells.

****
I tried to follow the block used in you samples, though cut a few things that I couldn't create, such as the "awards" for defeating poor old Durloch. Also, do you have a spell list for the Whm and Blm like the Crusader has? Anyway, check over the stats, as I wasn't entirely sure which stats actually got modified by ability scores, and went off the racial conversion rules you had posted earlier for the most part. Also, rather than roll the abilities, I broke my preference and used the standard array you provided in an earlier chapter to be more useful for illistrative purposes.


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## I'm A Banana (Sep 3, 2006)

> I'm still not sure how the initiative system works (so far since I know its still work in progress). Its not the same as 3.5 D&D becuase there are delays and what not. Is it like White Wolf's Exhalted Join battle system where there are speeds and delays on a "tick" system?




I'm not too familiar with Exalted, unfortunately, so I can't compare.

I will clarify, however, with the way I'm explaining it to my own players:

Step 1: Roll initiative. Roll 1d20, add your Agility and your Dexterity, subtract your Weight.
Step 2: Determine Initiative Scores. The number you rolled is the first one. Subtract 20 from this number to determine your second one. Continue in this fashion until you can no longer subtract 20 and have a positive number. These are your Initiative Scores. A cycle of these, from the highest to the lowest, is a round.
---(a): If your highest Initiative Score is a negative number, you will not have any turns this round. 
Step 3: Take your turns. Turns count down from highest initiative in the round. If you have more than one Initiative Score, you can take more than one turn. 
Step 4: Keep track of the delay associated with your actions in your turn, but in a seperate column. The most common actions are a standard or partial action, followed by a wait. These will affect your Initiative Scores in the next round. Below, the most common delays are listed:
---(1) For a full-turn action, the delay is -10.
---(2) For a standard or partial action, the delay is -5.
---(3) If you wait as a full-turn action, the delay is +10.
---(4) If you wait as a partial or standard action, the delay is +5.
---(5) If you take a standard action and a partial wait, your total delay is 0.
Step 5: Those with negative initiative scores gain a delay of +10.
Step 6: When the round is over, apply the effects of your delays to your Initiative Scores. This may change the amount of turns you have, granting you more or less depending on what you did in the previous round.

EXAMPLE:
Thief, Fighter, and Red Mage begin combat with a troupe of 3 goblins. They roll initiative, and determine their initiative scores. Thief has initiative scores of 45, 25, and 5. Fighter has an initiative score of 7. Red Mage has an iniative score of 12. The goblins have initiave scores of 23 and 3. The GM (or a volunteer player) writes these down, and then calls for Thief to go. Theif tries to flee, which is a full-round action. He fails, so he doesn't leave combat, and takes a -10 delay. The GM calls the next initiative score, which is 25 -- Thief again. Figuring he may as well escape with some goods, Thief attempts to steal as a standard action. First, he has to move into the front row (a partial action), and then he attempts to steal (a standard action). He succeeds, but his two actions give him another -10 delay (for a total of -20 so far). 

The goblins go next, and they attack Thief with a fury. They need to move into the front row (a partial action) and attack (a standard action), so their delay is -10. And they attack well, meaning Thief is in trouble.

The next highest initiative is Red Mage with a 12. Seeing Thief in some trouble, he casts a healing spell. He doesn't need to move into the front row to do so, but the spell is a standard action. With the partial action he has left, Red Mage waits, meaning his total delay for his turn is 0. 

Fighter's next with his 7. He charges into one of the goblins mobbing Thief, which is a full-turn action. He kills it, and his delay for this turn is -10 for his full-turn action. Thief gets to go again at 5, and he attacks one of the other goblins as a standard action, killing it. He chooses to drink a potion as his partial action, adding to his defense. He has taken both a standard and a partial action, meaning he has another -10 for this turn (bringing his total to -30). The goblins go again at 3, and the one left calls for backup as a full-round action. Another goblin arrives, and the goblins have a total delay of -20.

With that, the round is over, and the GM (or the volunteer) applies the results of the delays. For the second round, Thief has -30 to all his Initiative Scores, meaning he really only has one Initiative Score at 15 (45-30 being the only one that remains a positive number). Fighter's -10 reduces his Initiative Score to -3, meaning he cannot take any turns this round. Red Mage had a delay of 0, so his Initiative Score remains 12. The goblins, with their -20, now have an Initiative Score of 3. 

Thief still has the highest, and he moves into the back row (a partial action) and changes his weapon to a boomerang (also a partial action), giving him a -10 total for this turn. The next is Red Mage, who chooses to blast one of the goblins with a magic spell. The goblin dies, but the spell was powerful, and casing it was a full-turn action, giving him a -10 for his turn. The goblin gets to go now, at 3, and (seeing Fighter right there) decides to try to flee. He can't flee from the Front Row, however, so he moves into the back row (a partial action) and waits (as a standard action), giving him a 0 delay for his turn.

In Round Three, the scores are 5 for Thief, 2 for Red Mage, 3 for the Goblins, and 7 for Fighter. Slower, but persistant, Fighter performs a Forced Row Change on the goblin, effectively chasing him. With a good roll, he succeeds, and forces the goblin into the front row as a partial action. In his standard action, he attacks, killing the goblin. 

The goblins are defeated, and Red Mage calls Thief an idiot for jumping into the Front Row so soon.


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## Gallow (Sep 12, 2006)

First off, I'd like to say that I'm brand new to this site (just joined today), and I've been lead here in my thus far fruitless search for a decent FFRPG system.  I've checked out Returner's game (though not in-depth, I've given up on printing it out, but it seems extremely complex, almost to the point of Rifts if anyone remembers that game), and the ZODIAC FF system (it's ok, but far too simple), and so far I like FFZ the best.   

The group I usually run with is extremely hardcore D20, in fact, just about everything we play, with the exception of Shadowrun (my all-time favorite game) and Deadlands, uses the D20 system.  My wife and I have been wanting to run a FF game of some type for quite some time, and I think this system might be the way to go with my group.

Just a quick question though; do you have any other chapters completed?  I've downloaded all the chapters I could find, but is there more?


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## I'm A Banana (Sep 29, 2006)

It's taken me a little bit longer, but the dragoon is now up and ready to rumble!

I don't have an example character, and I realized that I'm missing some key information needed for example characters, such as armor/weapons/AP/feats. So I'm also working on some of those documents alongside the jobs. Those should come along pretty quick.

I'ma try to put together a Red Mage next. And since you're seeing a few monsters, that means the Blue Mage, the Beastmaster, and even (!) the Caler are not that far off.


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## magic_gathering2001 (Sep 29, 2006)

How are you calculating hp? I added it up ang dot 6 not 9.  Did I miss something?


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 1, 2006)

It should just be a flat award at every level. Then you add your CON modifier at every odd level (1st, 3rd, 5th, etc.). And some will have an extra feat (the Hardiness feat gives you 2 hp + 1 hp/level, for instance). I don't know which hp calculation you're looking at, so I can't say if it's right or wrong officially, but I believe the difference is probably due to the Hardiness feat offhand.


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## magic_gathering2001 (Oct 2, 2006)

OK that fixes it.


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## Kularian (Oct 5, 2006)

I've just sat down and read all that this thread includes in the past four hours, hehehe.  

First, let me say this:  I am extremely impressed with the time and effort that you're putting into this, and especially the versatility that it commands.  I am not familliar with the Returner's System, but as a fellow system creator, I know the benefits that come with simplicity.  (Most of my campaigns are either story boarded, or have very light systems that are there more for feel than anything else.)

Second:  I'm already chomping at the bit for more information.  I've done a few Final Fantasy type games in the past, but it was the system used, more than the plot and characterization, that threw me off.  But you've outdone yourself in creating a system that is designed for heavy plot games.  Heartily, I congratulate your efforts.

And to be honest, reading this has given me insight on a possible new system that I will probably begin using until this one is completed.  All of my fellow players are hardcore Final Fantasy players, and this sort of idea will truly get them excited.  

I'll say this, and I mean it to the fullest:  If there is anything that you need help with for this to near completion, anything at all, I'll do what I can to assist you.  Never before have I seen a system that has excited me as much as this, and I will do what I can to aid you, should you need it.

Kularian


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## Cynlas (Oct 11, 2006)

YEeaaaa!!! Sorry to take so long, apparently I'm not getting email-updates to this thread.

Cewl Beanz.


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## Cynlas (Oct 12, 2006)

*Dragoon & stuff*

Ok, here's some quesitons/observations:

First, erratta: The class table for the Dragoon is titled "Table: The Crusader". Nothing major. 

Second, Questions:

1.) What is the "Ft" stat?
2.) What is the "Spell" stat? I am thinking it lists when the character learns a new spell...
3.) What exactly does the "Dmg" stat do? 
and
4.) Why are the stat bonuses listed separately under the "bonus" column, rather than being reflected in the class's relevant stat directly. For example, the Dragoon gets a +2 AGI at 5th level, yet the class's AGI stat does not change from 4th to 5th level. Is this separation a function seen more explicitly in multi-classing (or multi-jobbing I guess is more accurate)? Basically, as I am anticipating, the "bonus" column affects the character directly and permanently in their basic non-class dependant abilities, whereas the job bonuses only function when the character is participating in the class directly and goes up/down based on primary or sub-job status. (Otherwise I cannot see the reason for the separation...but I  don't know everything, and my psychic abilities don't seem to work in any of the FF worlds  ) Of course, this may ead into a later question regarding multi/sub-jobbing mechanics...


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 13, 2006)

"Ft" is "Feats." That's how many feats a character of that level has. It's pretty much the same as the core, but it helps keep track of it.

"Spell" is, indeed, when a character learns a spell.

"Dmg" is the dice you roll for damage when attacking. This is the "normal damage".

You're right in thinking that the "bonus" column applies to sub-jobs. Right now, you only recieve the "bonus" column of your main job. So if you're taking Dragoon as a sub-job you don't get the power and agility of a typical Dragoon, but you will get it from your main job (which, for instance, could be thief, making you a VERY agile dragoon indeed!) They're seperated out because you will still recieve the normal advancement from the sub-job if it's better than your own.


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## Cynlas (Oct 13, 2006)

Thanks for the clarification KM. I will work on producing a 4th or 5th level "sample" dragoon here in the short run (ie today or tomorrow depending on available time).

Naturally I have another quesiton though, if the class itself provides the damage rating of the character's attacks, what do weapons do? I am thinking they just modify the base attributes (like Att or maybe a damage modifier or _multiplier_), but thought I'd ask...

BTW, my wife was so eager to play a Whm, I retrofitted yours into its D20 form, and she has been having a blast with it (especially Benediction now that she is high enough level to use it). Granted, she is using the standard Cleric spell list but that is an easy "fix" for later. I'll either npc a sample dragoon, or let one of my players run it to see how it works as opposed to the PrC version I have been using so far (and since no one has run or encountered one in this campaign/world, no continuity errors! Woo Hoo!). 

Keep up the good work!


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## Cynlas (Oct 13, 2006)

....

Nevermind. Re-reading the Whm page answered the spells Q.


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## Cynlas (Oct 14, 2006)

*Sample Dragoon*

Well, here goes...

*Al'whinnis the Spearfisher*
LV4 Selkie Dragoon
Medium Humanoid (Human)
*Agi*: +3 *Senses*: Perception +0
*Languages*: Common, Selkie, and Draconic
*Defense*: 13, flat-footed: 11, touch: 13; *Armor*: +0
*hp*: 18
*Limits*: Quicksilver
*Resistance*: +1
*Special Defense*: None
*Melee*: Spear +5 (1d6+3)
*Ranged*: None
*Atk*: +3
*Atk Options*: Jump Attack, Lancet
*Special Actions*: Dragon Magic (0)
*Mag*: +2
*mp*: 12
*Spells*: Glory (3mp)
*Attributes*: Str 15(+2), Dex 14 (+2), Con 13 (+1), Int 12 (+1), Wis 10 (+0), Cha 12 (+1)
*SQ*: Draconic Legacy
*Feats*: Jaded
*Skills (Rank 6)*: Craft (weaponsmithing) +7, Jump +8, Tumble +8
*Posessions*: Spear, Clothing
*Habitat*: Temperate Plains
_Draconic Legacy_: The selkie gains +1 to damage delivered to animals.

____________________

As before, I used KM's pre-crash racial conversion notes to extrapolate which stats are modified by what ability scores. I kept the possessions light, as I do not as yet know how they affect things (like armour or damage). I did roll the stats rather than using the standard array. Otherwise, I believe I got all the racial and other modifiers computed into the base class/level correctly. Still not sure on the correct number of skill ranks a character should have at a given level, so those may be off. Also, the MP are unmodified, as I am not sure if they get adjusted for ability scores (and if so, how).  Enjoy and scrutinize plz. Corrections welcome!


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 22, 2006)

VERY NICE! 

I like what you've got there, and it's solid even without the mechanics descriptions that are lacking (but coming next!)



> Naturally I have another quesiton though, if the class itself provides the damage rating of the character's attacks, what do weapons do? I am thinking they just modify the base attributes (like Att or maybe a damage modifier or multiplier), but thought I'd ask...




Think about how FF10 put "attributes" on different weapons -- katanas could hurt armored creatures better, while the thrown weapons were effective against fliers, and certain stat-modification abilities would only be put on certain weapons. 

Now think about how this is applied to d20 -- some weapons (like spears) can have Reach. Some weapons can have Impressive Critical (x3) or Superior Critical(x4). Some can have a Frequent Critical (19-20). Some can grant you a bonus to trip or disarm checks, some can be set against a charge, some are masterwork, or made of silver...these are actually what characters get to spend AP on. AP (along with GP and XP) *is* the major award category in FFZ, and you can cash it in on things from weapon and armor modifications to special character abilities (auto-potion and the like) to super-secret-special characters and ultimate limit moves. 

Your job will give you how much damage you can deal. Your weapon proficiencies will help you modify how you can deal that damage with AP...which means that Knights, for instance, will have more ways to change their attacks around than black mages, and thus will be more likely to have the right weapon for the job (or a few very POWERFUL weapons).



> BTW, my wife was so eager to play a Whm, I retrofitted yours into its D20 form, and she has been having a blast with it (especially Benediction now that she is high enough level to use it). Granted, she is using the standard Cleric spell list but that is an easy "fix" for later. I'll either npc a sample dragoon, or let one of my players run it to see how it works as opposed to the PrC version I have been using so far (and since no one has run or encountered one in this campaign/world, no continuity errors! Woo Hoo!).




I'm working on a spell list, I promise.  It's just a (relatively) low priority when considering that I neglected to give enough info to truly make a character.


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## Cynlas (Oct 22, 2006)

> Your job will give you how much damage you can deal. Your weapon proficiencies will help you modify _how_ you can deal that damage...



 That works. It even makes sense, once we pull out of the D&D mentality that the weapon itself should be the basis of damage delt. 



> I'm working on a spell list, I promise.



 No problem, I just thought you might already have one for the Whm or Blm like you did for the other spellcasters presented. But then, the Dragoon and Crusader spell lists are probably a lot shorter than a true mage's list!

As to the D20 re-conversions, I have actually been working on two "levels" of conversions. The first that I started with was a pretty transparent, template-like, overlay to the standard D20 classes. Thus my wife's White mage cast spells at the same rate and level as the Cleric, but without armor and at a reduced BAB, and the special Whm abilities are reappointed to levels based on where they fall in relation to spell levels (and a little arbitrary placement). The second conversions I have begun working on are a more faithful adaptation ot the FFZ versions, to include MP and other issues. In this version, however, I had to stray from the 1 D20 level = 2 FFZ levels somewhat, as there are still more FFZ levels after such than exist in standard D20. Thus I when with a 2/3 alternating conversion to make it all fit. Basically, the level conversions in this case looks like the following:
 D20 ---------- FFZ
Level --------- Levels
  1 -------------1-2
  2 -------------3-5
  3 -------------6-7
  4 -------------8-10
  5 ------------11-12
ect.......

The main reason for this is preserving the respective power levels for spellcasters, thus assuring that the D20 version is truly capable of casting the equivalent number of spells as their FFZ counterpart. I suppose I could have been more arbitrary in just assigning MP for each level, but thats no fun  In retrospect, it gives a slight conditional boost to the D20 caster, as a 4th level D20 Blm has more MP than an 8th or 9th level FFZ counterpart, but equal MP to a 10th level FFZ caster.


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 23, 2006)

> In this version, however, I had to stray from the 1 D20 level = 2 FFZ levels somewhat, as there are still more FFZ levels after such than exist in standard D20. Thus I when with a 2/3 alternating conversion to make it all fit. Basically, the level conversions in this case looks like the following:




You may find the upper levels (if you get that far) a bit more powerful than normal. Because FFZ level 50 is realy d20 level 25 (e.g.: +5 more BAB for fighters, +2-3 levels of spells for casters, +2 feats, etc). It might not be that GREAT of a difference, but it probably will be noticable. 



> The main reason for this is preserving the respective power levels for spellcasters, thus assuring that the D20 version is truly capable of casting the equivalent number of spells as their FFZ counterpart.




Believe it or not, the current MP calculation is based on that -- to ensure that primary spellcasters could cast as many spells per day as a normal D&D character. The difference is that an FFZ character can choose to sacrifice lower levels of spells to channel a higher levle of spells, in effect.


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## Cynlas (Oct 23, 2006)

> You may find the upper levels (if you get that far) a bit more powerful than normal.



Yup, I noticed. But for things like BAB, feats, and even HP, the closer conversions were still going to follow the basic conventions (like only a +20 fighter bab at 20th level), as some things need to conform to the system being converted to. MP and spells/level and spell power levels are the main difference in progressive power between the two, along with the extra class/job special abilities. 

While UA contains a spell point system, it is rather different from the FFZ one, and as I noticed from the few spells already made available, even spells of the same level have distinct MP costs, making the use of the UA spell-point system an inadequate substitution. This also required a more direct porting of the FFZ system than necessary for other items, like BAB, to ensure that the mages didn't get unintentially shafted of the ability to cast their spells, or fuel their class abilities at a given level.

In all actuality, it was the Blm abilities that made me re-think the way I was originally converting things via the "template" route. The only way to mechanically "fit" the Black mage's specials into the standard spell-slot casting system was to either make them usable a certain number of times a day, or have them spontaneously "burn" a spell slot from the caster's daily alottment of a level commensurate with the level of power they are using. Either way works, but neither really captures the feel of the FFZ versions.

In the long run, though, I think the Whm abilities _might_ need re-tweaking. While our party WHm can cast things like Heal or Cure Serious Wounds, she instead spends round after round "casting" Benediction for much greater effect, overall, than any given spell. Keep in mind that the D20 Benediction is inherently slightly weaker than the FFZ version, as I changed "per point of Magic" to D20 "caster level", and when gained only provides 8 dice of healing (as opposed to the 12 or more of the FFZ version, as it is gained at 8th D20 level). Currently, this is being balanced somewhat by the non-mechanical issue that also occurs in FFTA (I am told) when these abilities are used: the White Mage becomes a primary target for intelligent opponents. OF course, even though it heals less itself than its FFZ version, it tends to have a greater impact as D20 characters have less HP than their FFZ counterparts thanks to the stable & maximized HP progression of FFZ over the randomized D20 characters. So, in the end, it may not be an issue in the FFZ version of play. Spending three rounds to cast Cure 3 might be more efficient or necessary to heal three party members than spending three rounds of Benediction. Especially if there are attacks which do insane damage like in the vgs. Can't wait to find out...


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## Cynlas (Oct 24, 2006)

Now for a Dragoon question:

In the VGs, the Dragoon's Jump ability had a side effect of protecting the Lancer/Dragoon from getting hit with attacks or effects/spells while "off screen" during the lengthy jump itself. Given your free-flowing initiative system, it would have been easy to include this "feature" into the jump ability. What was your reasoning for dropping this (granted, "side-") effect?

Oh yeah, another question, how does the max-skill ranks work in FFZ? 

Thanks.


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 25, 2006)

> In the long run, though, I think the Whm abilities might need re-tweaking. While our party WHm can cast things like Heal or Cure Serious Wounds, she instead spends round after round "casting" Benediction for much greater effect, overall, than any given spell. Keep in mind that the D20 Benediction is inherently slightly weaker than the FFZ version, as I changed "per point of Magic" to D20 "caster level", and when gained only provides 8 dice of healing (as opposed to the 12 or more of the FFZ version, as it is gained at 8th D20 level). Currently, this is being balanced somewhat by the non-mechanical issue that also occurs in FFTA (I am told) when these abilities are used: the White Mage becomes a primary target for intelligent opponents. OF course, even though it heals less itself than its FFZ version, it tends to have a greater impact as D20 characters have less HP than their FFZ counterparts thanks to the stable & maximized HP progression of FFZ over the randomized D20 characters. So, in the end, it may not be an issue in the FFZ version of play. Spending three rounds to cast Cure 3 might be more efficient or necessary to heal three party members than spending three rounds of Benediction. Especially if there are attacks which do insane damage like in the vgs. Can't wait to find out...




The idea is that white magic can heal about as much as a black magic spell of the same level can deal in damage. Which, in general, is more than a Cure Blank Wounds spell can heal. This is, in part, because white mages don't get some of the cool stuff clerics get for combat and damaging magic. In comparison to these, Benediction, by the time you have 6th level magic, isn't that potent. Earlier in the process and still using the Cure Wounds spells, Benediction is pretty overpowered. You might want to make it a full-round action, or keep an X/dy limit on it, or make it cost a 0-level spell slot, or something else minor like that. 



> In the VGs, the Dragoon's Jump ability had a side effect of protecting the Lancer/Dragoon from getting hit with attacks or effects/spells while "off screen" during the lengthy jump itself. Given your free-flowing initiative system, it would have been easy to include this "feature" into the jump ability. What was your reasoning for dropping this (granted, "side-") effect?




Binary abilities are VERY powerful. The Dragoon while jumping is basically immune to any damage, and that's something that shouldn't be easily doled out, certainly not at an early level when the dragoon first gets Jump. 

Still, that is preserved. It is far too classic to deny.  It's going into the limits you can learn from Palidoor, though, meaning it fits in with other very powerful abilities and has some severe restrictions on it.


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 27, 2006)

Rules and Rolls 

This is the document so you can see the calculations I've been doing myself up to this point. The formulas may be changed, but this is what I'm going with for now. 

Equipment coming soon. The weapons are requiring a LOT Of game research.

And....GO #12!


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## Cynlas (Oct 30, 2006)

Perfect; just what I've been needing. I'll look it through directly...


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## Solarious (Oct 30, 2006)

I've been wanting to know: which system does FFZ work off? Some of the references are unfamiliar to me... most importantly, the feats. I don't recognize them.

Can I get a link?


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 30, 2006)

It largely works under it's own system, which is d20-derived (and still comprable). The specific feats mentioned are originally in the "Character Concepts" document (you'll find it in my .sig), but they have already changed from that early format. 

Most of the references make the most sense in relation to each other, they're just easier to understand with a d20 background. 


AND, I will be trying to pick up Final Fantasy 12 tomorrow after my midnight work shift. Wish me luck!


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## Cynlas (Oct 31, 2006)

Ok, new questions.

*First*, a general one about the class formats; while the stat columns, I am assuming, are meant to reflect that stats' current rating, like in standard D20. Is this also true for the "Bonus" column, or are those enhancements meant to be cumulative? For example, does a Whm get a total bonus to WIS of +6 (at 48th level), or +18 (the cumulative enhancement)? I ask because the Crusader table has some of its higher level bonuses actually going down, then up higher again (such as its "armor" bonus). Or, is it dependant upon the type of score the bonus applies to? (IE, attribute enhancements are linear (WIS +6), but other stats are cumulative (Armor +18 ).

Second, is it you're intent that spells cast by high level casters are unavoidable even by other high level (even higher level) characters? For example, assuming even pathetically average ability scores, a spell cast by a 50th level Blm (or Whm) cannot be avoided even with a Resistance roll of 20 (assuming we are ignoring the "automatic" success of a "natural 20") by any of the classes published so far. Crusaders seem to be the only ones capable of avoiding their own magic on a 50% margin; everyone else is doomed to failure.

For instance, a 50th Hume Blm with a 10 (now 16) Int has a Magic score of 30, making for a Magic Class of 43 (10+MAG+INT Mod). However, his evil twin genome only has a RES score of 16, meaning his resistance roll will be made at a D20 +16. At the best of times, he can only muster a RES result of 36, still significantly below his opponenet's 43 MC. 

Only the theif has a higher RES than MAG, but even still, its RES is not enough to effectively resist a true spellcaster.

Is this imbalance intentional? Or, do you intend to "fix" it by making more defensive, RES boosting, magic gear available than ofensive, MAGIC boosting, gear?


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 31, 2006)

> First, a general one about the class formats; while the stat columns, I am assuming, are meant to reflect that stats' current rating, like in standard D20. Is this also true for the "Bonus" column, or are those enhancements meant to be cumulative? For example, does a Whm get a total bonus to WIS of +6 (at 48th level), or +18 (the cumulative enhancement)? I ask because the Crusader table has some of its higher level bonuses actually going down, then up higher again (such as its "armor" bonus). Or, is it dependant upon the type of score the bonus applies to? (IE, attribute enhancements are linear (WIS +6), but other stats are cumulative (Armor +18 ).




The "bonus" colum lists the current rating, still. And I must have made a mistake with the Crusader table, because all the classes use the same basic formula of increasing stats/scores. 



> Second, is it you're intent that spells cast by high level casters are unavoidable even by other high level (even higher level) characters? For example, assuming even pathetically average ability scores, a spell cast by a 50th level Blm (or Whm) cannot be avoided even with a Resistance roll of 20 (assuming we are ignoring the "automatic" success of a "natural 20") by any of the classes published so far. Crusaders seem to be the only ones capable of avoiding their own magic on a 50% margin; everyone else is doomed to failure.




That "10 + Magic + Attribute Modifier" should probably just read "Magic + Attribute Modifier."


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## Cynlas (Oct 31, 2006)

> The "bonus" colum lists the current rating



 Ok.



> That "10 + Magic + Attribute Modifier" should probably just read "Magic + Attribute Modifier."



 Ok, but then won't that imbalance things unduly at the lower-level end of things, with just about every spell being avoided by even lower than average D20 rolls? For example, our struggling 10th level Blm (yeah, I know, not _that_ low level, but bear with me) now has a MAGIC of 6, granting an MC of 6 (remember, he's none too bright for a Blm   ), which is resisted by his evil twin Genome Blm-10 who has a RES of 3, meaning he only has to get a 3 on the D20 roll to resist our Hume's spells (DC 6 vs. D20+3). 

I think that the "10+" formula works best; it just seems that the RES scores for characters don't keep up with their MAG scores, which, depending on the job, is more or less ok, so long as there is even a point of picking up the die. Which classes have the best RES to magic will have to rely upon your game theory and interpretation of the source material, but if there is the chance to resist, mechanically, then there needs to be the possibility for success, _especially_ in those Jobs that you deem to be capable of successfully being able to resist magic. For example, it may be decided that Jobs with low magic use are just incapable of resisting any but the most elementary spells, so some might possess this gradual degeneration of resistance, and have to suffice with other means of survival, like lots of HP or HP recovery methods. This certainly seems to be present in some of the FF incarnations, wherein you just have to have a ready supply of X-Potions available for use. Powerful magic just might not be capable of real resistance; but I think, for the D20 system, such might be better relfected in the results of successful resistance (ie Save for 1/2 rather than the Save to avoid or "negates" of less "powerful" spells), rather than the eventual impossibility of even a partial success, as this seems to be how the (d20) system is "balanced". But, thats just my half-mill on it. 

Another aspect for D20 that is different than FFZ is that the spell save is based on the level of the spell, rather than "Caster Level", which given that spells capp at "9th" level, that means the save DCs are much lower than FFZ's potential, which has the corresponding difference in effect of the (essentially) same mechanical ability to resist, as reflected by class/job based save/RES modifiers. A +12 Save bonus means a lot more in D20 than a +12 RES stat because of the lower basis of spell/effect DCs for D20 spells than FFZ. [OTOH, I often find the spell dcs in D&D to be _too_ low for the challenge ratings they should represent]

I guess the solution will have to rely upon your vision as to how able you want characters to be able to resist magic. I like how you've got things set up (caster-level based DCs, single saves, ect), and think the present system you've created will work, just need some minor tweaking to the "hard numbers" for some fine tuning (which is what testing and drafts are for, Neh?)

BTW, so far, FF12 is _Kewl_.....


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## I'm A Banana (Nov 3, 2006)

Upon further (and not drunk) analysis, Cynlas, you've a good point. The RES scores are not quite working as they should.

I think it has to do with how they were derived. I wanted the RES scores to reflect the continuum from high to low saves in d20. Part of the problem is that RES is your ONLY saving throw, though, effectively making all of a black mage's saves fairly low, for instance. 

Expect the jobs to get a universal RES bump. It's easy enough to do, but it's definately something I wouldn't have noticed without some help.  

Still, you'll find the Thief saving against spells about 1/2 the time, Crusaders (and White Mages) maybe more like 3/4ths....Black mages maybe closer to 1/4....

The RES checks are not entirely off. A lot of the jobs released so far have had pretty low RES scores rather intentionally. Still, most are going to need a better chance than they  have.


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## Cynlas (Nov 3, 2006)

> Expect the jobs to get a universal RES bump. It's easy enough to do, but it's definately something I wouldn't have noticed without some help.



 Glad I could help.



> Still, you'll find the Thief saving against spells about 1/2 the time, Crusaders (and White Mages) maybe more like 3/4ths....Black mages maybe closer to 1/4....



 Which is entirely appropriate. Each class should have some level of variance in how it can resist magical effects. Remember though, as I am sure you will, that the WIS based casters (like *Whm*s) will have an inherently higher RES than the job tables will overtly indicate thanks to job-based stat increases. Too bad about those poor black mages though... 

Keep up the good work, and we'll even make allowances for the extra time your um, "research" will take in reveiwing the new FF12 material.


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## I'm A Banana (Nov 4, 2006)

> Keep up the good work, and we'll even make allowances for the extra time your um, "research" will take in reveiwing the new FF12 material.




I'm also economically pinched since my move, so I've been putting in extra hours at the job. Real Life Attacks!

Still, there is steady progress being made. I'm too stubborn to let this project go.


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## I'm A Banana (Nov 4, 2006)

> Which is entirely appropriate. Each class should have some level of variance in how it can resist magical effects. Remember though, as I am sure you will, that the WIS based casters (like Whms) will have an inherently higher RES than the job tables will overtly indicate thanks to job-based stat increases. Too bad about those poor black mages though...




Yeah, that's accounted for. What I didn't really account for was the problem of most jobs having effectively "no good saves" or "all poor saves". Thankfully, it's easy enough to mend, and shall appear in Version 1.


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## Land Outcast (Nov 9, 2006)

Just passing by and wanted my love for this project to be known


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## I'm A Banana (Jan 8, 2007)

HEY!

I know it's been a while, but things have been a little crazy. I've got the equipment notes just about ready to go up, and I'm going to toy with the Resistance values for the jobs I've already released as well.


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## I'm A Banana (Jan 11, 2007)

This post has an attatchment that is the stat-blocks of four characters and the explanation of their abilities. 

I've run into an issue with my hosting service ('cuz I'm no longer at the university where it was free. ), so I'm not sure where these files are going to find a home, but I'll be working on it.

In the meanwhile, enjoy this tidbit. I hope to get a monster up and running soon, and then I can work some sort of test adventure for the post.


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## Cynlas (Jan 16, 2007)

YAY! Updates


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## BRP2 (Jan 16, 2007)

Would you like assistance with FFXI related material? No offense, but it doesn't seem you know awhole lot about it. I know a lot about the game, including its story/lore, maybe too much.


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## I'm A Banana (Jan 18, 2007)

Yeah, I don't know much about 11 (or 8 for that matter. ). While FFZ is very much a hodge-podge, I would welcome any words of lore from the games while developing this, especially if you see an opportunity I missed. This goes for all the games, though -- if I've overlooked something you think is cool in FF4 or FF10 or whatever, feel free to let me know, and I'll see what I can do to work it into the editing. 

I've attatched a revision of the Characters and Extras, and a copy of two monsters, and the "Combat Example" document. I've also attatched the equipment notes; though they're disorganized, they're what I'm going from.  And the skill notes, though they're kind of vague (just relating them to D&D skills).

I'm already noticing a few errors here and there in the docs, but they're a good overview.

Here, I'll post how to read the stat blocks:

Character Information
All the information you need to tell what it is at a glance.
*Name and Level*: Analogous to the monster name and CR from D&D.
*Gender, Tribe, Jobs, Levels*: This line is for characters, telling you quickly what their basic building blocks are. Monsters, lacking tribes or jobs, usually lack this line, unless they're also antagonists.
*Size, Type, Subtype*: FFZ heavily uses the subtype mechanic for things, so almost everything will have some subtype. For instance, all things that are bat-like creatures will have the Chieoptera subtype, be they Animals, Magical Beasts, Humanoids, etc.

Monstrous Information
Provided for beasties so that you can determine if the beastie is right for your encounters and party.
*Award Factor*: This * the number of party members = award for the encounter. Yay!
*Loot*: If the creature doesn't carry the gil award, instead he will drop loot that you can sell at the market. This loot is also used in manufacturing items using the Craft skill and Synthesis (though I've yet to work out the exact system for this). 
*Habitat*: As per the DMG, where these critters tend to live.

Pre-Encounter Information
Stuff you'll need before the encounter begins.
*SPD*: "Speed." = DEX bonus + AGI score - Weight. Roll this at the start of the encounter to determine order of combat.
*Senses*: As per D&D; usually only the Perception skill is listed, but scent or blindsense, etc., should be here, too.
*Languages*: What the creature can speak and understand. Animals can still understand their own "tongue."

Defensive Information
What happens when someone hits you.
*Defense*: Basically, AC. 10 + Dex bonus + Armor bonus. Passive Defense is 10 + Armor Bonus - Weight (no Dex; it's basically flat-footed). Note that there's no such thing as a "touch AC" in FFZ: Your Defense *is* your touch AC.
*hp*: Hit points. Includes any bonuses from armor or CON.
*VIT*: Vitality. I'm choosing to go with this term instead of AMR. It's just a re-naming, though, it does the same thing: negates damage.
*WND*: "Wounded." = your CON bonus. This is the point at which you become wounded, gaining 1 LP, only able to make a single action, and taking damage when you do (unless that action heals you above the WND threshold). This is the point your pixelated character begins to kneel to the ground.
*SWN*: "Swoon" = negative (10 + your CON bonus). This is the point at which you swoon, being unable to take any more actions. 
*Limits*: These are those super-abilities creatures can unleash. NPC's gain LP by the same methods PC's do, and also by simply being slain: every 6 encounters, the DM gets a chance to unleash a monster limit on the PC's! This is partially why minions are useful for big bosses: they allow the boss to use most powerful attacks.

Magical Status
Magic abilities.
*MND*: "Mind." This is a re-named and re-worked RES score for those who have been following along. MND works more like Defense and AC does: it's a score the caster needs to beat. It's done the same way though: 10 + MND score + WIS bonus, plus any bonus from equipment.
*MDF*: "Magic Defense." MND score + Wis Bonus. This usually subtracts from the MAG of the creature casting at you.
*MP*: Magic points. This includes the bonus from armor.
*MAG*: Your MAGIC score. MAG core + Ability Bonus (defaults to Charisma), plus any equipment bonuses. This roughly equates to caster level, but MDF will resist it.
*MAT*: "Magic Attack" The same as your MAG, except that it uses 1/2 your MAG score + Ability Bonus. This is roughly like the DC to overcome a spell, and represents how well you hit with magic. When rolling, you must overcome their MND score.

Combat Information
All the metal that's fit to swing.
*Melee*: Like D&D: attack, bonus, damage, and "special functions." 
*Special Actions/Magic*: As D&D; what nifty stuff they can do. Magic includes the type of magic, what spells they can cast, how much MP it takes, and if they get any side-benefits from it (like Elize's tribal ability).
*ATK*: Raw ATK score, as D&D's BAB.
*GRP*: Grapple check score; as D&D's GRP.

Miscellaneous Stats
The stuff that usually isn't as directly relevant in combat.
*Attributes*: AKA Ability Scores
*Feats*: Characters have only their Concept feat so far; monsters only have one.
*Skills*: FFZ characters just have a certain number of skills at a given rank (all skills are class skills). There are feats allowed to add more skills. 
*SQ*: Special Qualities that don't fit anywhere else, such as the tribe/job combo abilities.
*Orisha*: Orisha give characters their limits; monsters usually lack Orisha, but some have them.
*Equipment*: If the creature or character has anything other than their naked flesh, it's listed here.

_Possible Kinks To Work Out_: The spells. Specifically, I'm not sure if the healing spells are going to give "too much healing." I'm enamored of having them scale at the same rate as damage spells, but being able to ignore MDF of their recipients makes them cure a heck of a lot more than enemies can usually deal. Still, this might not actually be a problem -- healing spells could be spread out among more recpients, making them effective mass-healing spells (at 1/2 magic for the second target, 1/4 for the third, 1/8 for the fourth, etc).


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## I'm A Banana (Jan 26, 2007)

What, no response?


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## Daisuke (Jan 26, 2007)

I've been lurking around here for a while now and I have to say that I like what I see.  I've personally been waiting to see what you do with the Samurai.  Love the Tinkering skill you came up with.  Characters will be able to cause all kinds of meyhem with that one.


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## Harm (Jan 26, 2007)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> What, no response?




  I was going to take over a fairly high level party as GM and take them into the FFXI world and have them do some of the quests and city missions from there, and add in the hunt missions from FFXII.  Part of the reason to do this was so that I could ditch the ludicrous DnD spell system, but keep the majority of the rest of the game which works fairly well, and use the great FFXI background and world.  It would have involved the party taking some time off initially to retrain some things like learn the different spell system cleric > white mage magic, druid > red or blue mage magic, sorcerer > blue or black mage magic, wizard > black mage magic, paladin > paladin magic, bard > support white mage magic + bard song, hex blade > dark knight magic etc.  Regardless for the most part the characters would have remained as they were in DnD.  They wouldn't have had the option to pick up a support job, but at the same time native characters using the FFXI version of paladin, warrior etc. jobs who could support job had more restricted access to feats and can't multi-class, so effectivly equivalent.

  There were three main things that weren't either identical in DnD or could be trivially fixed like changing how paralyze works to more reflect how it does in FFXI.  First, metamagic feats needed to be changed because of the spell system change, although mapping something like maximize spell to +10 magic attack with no spell level increase like BLM get works for wizards, it simply doesn't work well for clerics who also take maximize spell but won't be casting much damage from the white magic list.  Second, resistances and saves were a bit odd as almost everything magic is a will save and almost everything physical is a reflex save, with little to no fort save use in FFXI.  Third, weaponskills from FFXI/FFXII don't map to DnD at all, but in Book of Nine Swords I found a lot of mechanics in there with their ki weapon powers that do fit very well.  Although there wasn't much in BoNS I was going to take directly, a lot of the mechanics for how the weapon powers are used could be used easily to make the equivalent of FFXI weaponskills in DnD.

  Those problems were relativly minor however and for the most part it was a drop-in replacement that would give a very FFXI feel, but stick closely to the DnD rules.  The 75 level + merits system in FFXI was converted transparantly by dividing FFXI levels by 4 and having the merit abilities and spells available at level 20+ as epic.

  Anyway, it seems that from the posts of yours I've read here theres 3 things I'd suggest.  First is that by going after several games at once you're making a very large task for yourself that would be more difficult than breaking it up into several smaller tasks.  Second, it looks like you're overcomplicating things and adding in a lot more new mechanics and rules than you have to which has a few effects, among them is that it's more unweildy and dificult to balance, and it'll be frustrating for DnD players to use because of all the differences.  Third it doesn't sound like it will play like either DnD or FF.  For instance your "abstracting out equipment and putting them in as class features" is neither DnD nor FF both of which rely heavily on higher level characters having access too higher power equipment.  In fact it's a cornerstone of both games where many FF players spend ages doing the quests or finding the materials or unlocking the hidden dungeon to get the ultima weapon for each of their characters.  Likewise in DnD the monster's CR is tied to it's AC and DC on saves for it's spells which are tied to the expected attack bonus and saveing throws of players which is tied to them having a certain level of magic items at certain levels.


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## BRP2 (Jan 26, 2007)

I too am making a setting for FFXI. I'm using Iron Heroes instead of DnD though, but I once I work out work out a magic system, it can work with either probably.

[sblock]
For weapon skills, I'm adding a secondary token pool(er the concept is from Iron Heroes) based on BAB progress. Its basically Tactical Points. The longer you fight, you store it up.  You can use it to unleash an elemental bonus(think 1d6 or 2d6 or ect as you level higher; the type on element is based on weapon type) with a powered attack. It also gives a bonus when used with things like "Aim" token abilities. The Weapon Master class will receive a small bonus here in terms of how quickly they gain these "Tactical Tokens".

For unique class concepts that don't fit in IH's classes, like Dragoon's jumps, wyvern pet, Monk's chi/martial arts, Beastmaster's charm, Dark Knight's Soul Eater, and spells ect, I'm using the Feat Mastery system(must read IH to understand this too). Basically they are limited feat concepts that cost a feat or beginning trait to get access to. Say if you grabbed the "Dark Knight" trait/feat: you can progress in the "Curse magic"(black magic enfeebling / dark magic), "Soul Eater", and "Blood Weapon"(I'm going to expand this into a whole constant ability).

Magic I also want to be feat based. Another thing I want magic to feel like is powerful, but limited... like a weapon. Spells like Wish won't exist. Spells while be balanced between the 6 main elements(with Dark and Light being very limited), so no dominance of fire magic like DnD. Also evocation spells will work like ranged weapons. While Charisma will be changed to effect "Will", Wisdom(name changed to Mind) will support a DR that effects elemental/magical effects(and will replace SR entirely, creatures with SR will just have very large Magic DR). This magic DR can be lowered based on whole well the spell-caster casts his spell(and his INT score).

Magic will be broken up into "Black Magic" feat masteries(Elemental, Curse), "White Magic" feat masteries(Cure, Divine/Protection), "Red Magic/Mixed" feat mastery, "Summoning" feat masteries, "Bardic" feat masteries(er, a bunch of song choices), "Ninjetsu" feat masteries(Elemental Wheel and Shadow/Enfeebling), and  "Fate" feat mastery(Corsair rolls).

For magical classes, they will be much more specific compared to other IH classes. Black Mage, White Mage, Red Mage, Summoner, and Bard. Each class will focus on their related feat mastery, Bard will be especially different than DnD Bard. Songs will be more like spells that a Bard can know.

I'll probably make Skillchains and Magic Bursts possible.

Blue Mage(and Blue Magic) and Puppetmaster will be the hardest to add to the system because their concepts are so unique. I'm thinking of giving almost every non-humanoid a weapon skill or two, so Blue Mages can mimic them.

And that was just some random notes ;p.

[/sblock]

After I'm finish with my system, I'll probably make a system using KM's FF concept and DnD. Yeah, so the day after forever.


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## I'm A Banana (Jan 27, 2007)

I've attatched a document with another example 1st level character (a Dragoon), and two more monsters (a zombie, and a crab). I've run a few playtest battles, and everything functions pretty much as its supposed to: the thief was a soft target who had multiple actions, the crusader was standing strong, the white mage used whole-party healing to help everyone, the black mage managed to blow away a monster or two.

Next step is probably to give some sort of introductory adventure using the characters, to codify the new limit system (e.g.: come up with a few orisha and what limits they give) and to keep pumping out job rough drafts (red mage, reaper, and samurai are now on the most immediate to-do lists). 



			
				Harm said:
			
		

> Anyway, it seems that from the posts of yours I've read here theres 3 things I'd suggest. First is that by going after several games at once you're making a very large task for yourself that would be more difficult than breaking it up into several smaller tasks.




Actually, I think it's easier going from "all of FF" rather than a particular game. This allows me to pick and choose aspects from different FF games, to get a lock on the things that stuck in the series (and why they did so), and to ditch the stuff that didn't quite work, or won't work for a PnP game. I'm not beholden to, say FFXI's way of doing weaponskills -- I can use some of them, and I can use some of FF8's limit system or FF6's abilities for Cyan. I can take some of the most emblematic and dramatic abilities and turn them into FFZ abilities pretty easily....a "best of the best" approach, kind of.



> Second, it looks like you're overcomplicating things and adding in a lot more new mechanics and rules than you have to which has a few effects, among them is that it's more unweildy and dificult to balance, and it'll be frustrating for DnD players to use because of all the differences.




I've actually made an effort to simplify a lot of things. Some of the rules are different, but whenever this happens, it's always more transparent than it is in D&D. This makes it pretty easy to balance, actually -- you can forecast the abilities of a character or creature of X level much more easily in FFZ than you can in D&D. The way that damage, stat bonuses, etc. map directly to level means that you're well aware of what a character of X level can do, and thus can more accurately challenge them as a DM. And between characters, it makes sure that each character fullfills a dramatically different role. Even in a party of "all fighters" or "all casters," there's enough variety so that characters don't often tread on each others' toes, and no one hogs the spotlight (there will be more evidence of this simplicity when I get to releasing the DM stuff). 



> Third it doesn't sound like it will play like either DnD or FF.




Well, try a combat for yourself. If it doesn't feel much like FF combat, tell me how, and I can improve it. It feels like FF combat to *me*, but I'm probably biased. 



> For instance your "abstracting out equipment and putting them in as class features" is neither DnD nor FF both of which rely heavily on higher level characters having access too higher power equipment. In fact it's a cornerstone of both games where many FF players spend ages doing the quests or finding the materials or unlocking the hidden dungeon to get the ultima weapon for each of their characters.




This actually maps to FF pretty directly, though in a different way than expected. In FF, you continually imrpove in weapons and armor as your character gains levels and finds new towns -- each new location has an upgrade of weapons and armor. FFZ ties it to level, which suggests when your characters should be finding new rescources and improving their equipment in other ways (such as with AP or gil). 

"Spending ages doing quests or finding materials or unlocking hidden dungeons" doesn't map well to PnP at all, where spending ages donig anything is just onerous. Instead (and, again, this is more evident in the DM documents), FFZ nurtures the idea of hidden treasures that are meant to be discovered -- it is assumed that you will be hunting for the ultima weapons, so the ability (and expectation) of the ultima weapons are ingrained in character advancement, much as treasure is for D&D characters.



> Likewise in DnD the monster's CR is tied to it's AC and DC on saves for it's spells which are tied to the expected attack bonus and saveing throws of players which is tied to them having a certain level of magic items at certain levels.




This is true for FFZ, too, just using different terms: a monster's Level is tied to its Defense and Magic score for its spells which are tied to the expected Attack score and Mind scores of the players which is tied to them gaining certain rewards at certain levels. 

FFZ expedites the process of awards, which makes determining which monsters are good choices much easier, thus allowing the DM to focus more on character and story development than on challenge selection.


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## BRP2 (Jan 27, 2007)

I eagerly await more details.

I wonder how you did Elvaans.
Statwise, in FFXI they have high MND/WIS(and religious faith), high STR, low INT, and low DEX.


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## I'm A Banana (Jan 28, 2007)

You can see FFZ's elvaans (as they exist for now) in the Tribes document in my sig (the link should still work). I disposed of the STR/DEX dichotomy, but gave them a high MAG (powerful spells) and a penalty to MP (low staying power).

Their cultural info is probably ajar of FFXI's, though the fluff ain't to hard to re-write. And if you'd like to keep the STR+/DEX- adjustments, you could give them +1 DMG/-1 DEF, or +1 ATK/-1 AGI, or something similar.

The Dragoon in the example document is an Elvaan, too.


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## cavaleiromorto (Jan 29, 2007)

Hello Kamikaze, I have a question:

1) What is the formula to calculate the HP/MP progression? In the 1º level, and in the subsequent levels?

Is the basic Class HP + Con Mod/ Class MP + XXX Mod or another formula?


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## I'm A Banana (Jan 29, 2007)

> 1) What is the formula to calculate the HP/MP progression? In the 1º level, and in the subsequent levels?
> 
> Is the basic Class HP + Con Mod/ Class MP + XXX Mod or another formula?




The Rules document should have the specifics, but it's:

HP: Class HP + Con Mod at every Odd-numbered level (plus anything from equipment)
MP: Class MP + Cha Mod at every Even-numbered level (plus anything from equipment). This modifier can change if you cast magic, to Int or Wis, but it defaults to Cha.


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## cavaleiromorto (Jan 30, 2007)

Thanks by the reply 

I have read all the documents you post and i not find these rules.

Another question, the level up is determinate by the amount of total AP or XP.


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## I'm A Banana (Jan 31, 2007)

Not in there? Awww, man!

XP. The exact system is one of the missing components, but D&D's system works okay, too.

AP is just another way to gain abilities that treasure alone won't give you.


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## cavaleiromorto (Feb 3, 2007)

Another question:

1) The HP/MP bonus give by the Armor/Hemet/Shield is add to:

Total HP/MP

or

Is a bonus like the Con bonus give to HP, and Char bonus give to MP?


2) Exist any type of equivalence from FFZero AP and the D&D XP ?


3)  What is the cost, in LP (Limit Points), of the Limit Breaks (LB)? Exist a diference in the cost of the racial LB and class LB?


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## I'm A Banana (Feb 4, 2007)

> Total HP/MP
> 
> or
> 
> Is a bonus like the Con bonus give to HP, and Char bonus give to MP?




If I understand you right, I think you should think of the equipment as a bonus to total hit points. The hp and mp bonus from equipment is added to your maximum hp/mp, but only once (so that you don't get it over and over again as you level up). The Con and Cha bonuses are added at every other level, so they increase as your level increases, with the equipment bonus on top of it.



> 2) Exist any type of equivalence from FFZero AP and the D&D XP ?




AP is more similar to GP than it is to XP. It's used to buy "awards" (you can see a few of them in the equipment notes document), one of the main ways of powering up your character in FFZ.



> 3) What is the cost, in LP (Limit Points), of the Limit Breaks (LB)? Exist a diference in the cost of the racial LB and class LB?




At the moment, limits cost LP equal to the level  you recieve them at, except racial limits (or level 1 limits), which cost 3 LP.


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## Cynlas (Feb 5, 2007)

Hi KM.

Sorry, been off-line for a bit (new job and all...). Look forward to play testing the new stuff. Will try and stop in more frequently.

Keep up the good work.

B


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## I'm A Banana (Feb 5, 2007)

More about the Elvaan:

I deliberately linked them to the "Saint Ajora" myth of the FFT/TA/XII saga rather than to their own god, because the Ajora myth has a deeper penetration in the series, and it adds an interesting dichotomy between their goddess and the other spiritual beings of great power (the Orisha).


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## I'm A Banana (Feb 8, 2007)

I've attached an update of the characters/extras and monsters/combat documents here. The characters have been edited for consistency, and now include a Dragoon and a Red Mage along with the Crusader, Black Mage, White Mage, and Thief. The monsters now include a Crab, a Wolf, and a Zombie, in addition to the Goblin and Bat. 

I'm still hacking away at the Orisha, to finalize what they can offer, and at the way the Loot system is working, but it's coming together pretty nicely.


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## Malhost Zormaeril (Feb 10, 2007)

Very cool.  Question, though:  This "Chronist" job, is it like the Time Mage from V? It's described as a "knight", so I assume not, but then where is it from?  Inquiring minds must know, and all that jazz, although I'm probably just coming off as ignorant... ;-)

Really, I just dug the hats...


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## I'm A Banana (Feb 10, 2007)

> This "Chronist" job, is it like the Time Mage from V? It's described as a "knight", so I assume not, but then where is it from? Inquiring minds must know, and all that jazz, although I'm probably just coming off as ignorant... ;-)




A chronist is to time magic what a paladin is to white magic and a reaper is to black magic, e.g.: someone who uses it for a specific end.

Think something like Tidus in FFX: time magic spells that haste and slow and stop and go, and combine them with decent sword skills and a focus on speed. 

FFV's time mage is basically the Gray Mage, so you'll find those hats here, too.


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## I'm A Banana (Feb 21, 2007)

*Tantative White Magic Spell List*

I'm starting to pull together some spell lists, now, to get a sense of how the FFZ's characters magic abilities rate next to d20's. They're significantly different, but I see that the individual spells are more limited (nothing will allow you to raise a target without a body, for instance), and more flexible (low-level spells can be fairly cheaply turned into multi-target spells: no extra MP is spent, the spell is just weaker). I'm torn often between simplifying the spell list (each spell should be useful at all levels, unless it's part of a chain that levels up...no spell should duplicate what another does with a minor variation) and keeping FF flavor (if Fire, Blizzard, and Thunder were all the same spell, it wouldn't feel right...)

So here's an early version of the White Magic spell list (note that it's even different from the sample characters in the Intro Adventure...remember what I warned you guys about having half-ideas of semi-put-together things. )

White Magic
Rank 0
Curet: Heals 1d4 hp/MAG
Comfort: Can Take 10 on Endurnace checks vs. the environment
Mend: Heals an object’s hp
Resist Ailment: Bonus to checks vs. certain ailments
Defensive Ability Knowledge: Reduces MND, MDF, DEF, max hp, or VIT penalties for 1 rd

Rank I
Elemental Force Field: Gives a “buffer” with its own hp against a specific element
Sanctuary: Creatures can’t attack target without a MND check; target can’t attack them
Magic Parry: Target can negate an attack with an ATK check
Unspell: One Boon on the target has its MAG value reduced.
Repose: Preserves a body so that it can be raised later.

Rank II
Cure: Heals 1d6 hp/MAG (From Curet)
Make Whole: Repairs an object fully (from Mend)
Overcome Ailment: Enables another save against certain ailments
Defensive Ability Surge: Gives MND, MDF, DEF, max hp, or VIT bonus for 1 rd
Shield Other: You take ½ of the damage dealt to another
Safe: +50% DEF and VIT. 
Shell: +50% MND.
Spikes: Target is deals physical damage to their attackers

Rank III
Bar Element: Grants Elemental Resistance (From Elemental Force Field)
Dispel: Strips one Boon from the target
Barricade: A target is surrounded on all sides by a wall of material (From Sanctuary)
Prolong Life: Target can remain at Wounded status for 10 + Con Mod. more hp.
Wall of Blades: Obstruction deals damage to those passing through
Vanish: Target gains Vanish boon; cannot be targeted.

Rank IV
Cura: Heals 1d8 hp/MAG (From Cure)
Prevent Ailment: Prevents one occurrence of certain ailments
Defensive Ability Boost: Gives MND, MDF, DEF, max hp, or VIT bonus for 1 rd/MAG
Repel: Target keeps its distance
Barrier: ×2 DEF, VIT, and MND 
Element Spikes: Target is deals elemental damage to their attackers

Rank V
Block Element: Element’s damage is halved (From Bar Element)
Nullspel: Strips all Boons from the target
Raise: Target is healed of Swoon status, and healed of 1 hp.
Spell Resistance: Target gains SR 12 + MAG
Wall of Element: Wall deals elemental damage to those passing through
Bubble: Target’s maximum hp doubles

Rank VI
Curaga: Heals 1d10 hp/MAG (From Cura)
Heal Ailment: Completely heals certain ailments
Defensive Ability Up: Gives MND, MDF, DEF, max hp, or VIT bonus for 1 day
Isolation: Target cannot enter the Front Row, or be forced to.
Peerless: Target becomes invulnerable to damage 
Launched Spikes: Target deals damage even to ranged attackers 

Rank VII
Null Element: Element’s damage is entirely negated (From Block Element)
Reraise: Target automatically is raised when they swoon. 
Reflect: Reflects spells back to caster 
Wall of Colors: Nested Wall of Element effects in one spell
Decoy: Willing target becomes the focus of enemy’s attentions 

Rank VIII
Curaja: Heals 1d12 hp/MAG (From Curaga)
Astra: Blocks the next ailment you are struck with
Ability Preservation: Target becomes immune to ability damage
Attack Warp: Attacker is damaged instead of the target 

Rank IX
Element Eater: Element is absorbed as healing (From Null Element)
Full Life: Target is healed of Swoon status, and healed to maximum hp
Adaptation: Target becomes immune to the next effect that damages it
Reverse: Damage heals a target; healing damages it.

Rank X
Full Cure: Heals all hit points (From Curaja)
Esuna: Completely heals all ailments
Defensive Ability Perfection: Gives MND, MDF, DEF, max hp, and VIT bonus for 1 day


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## Exen Trik (Feb 21, 2007)

Good to see you're still chugging along with this little project. Keep up the good work. 

By the way, I see you are taking some elements from Ivalice settings, but are you specifically going to place Ivalice into the game, centrally or otherwise? Between FFT, FFXI and FFXII, there is a lot of setting-specific material to work with there. I don't know how much it fits with the mythos you're creating for your setting though... could just complicate things for you. But maybe you'd enjoy that.


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## I'm A Banana (Feb 21, 2007)

Ivalice will definitely be the name for the "default setting."

Of course, I plan on using it like D&D uses Greyhawk: something to use to drop names and to suggest specific examples, but something that the DM ultimately will make their own.

Like, there's no Lufenish in FFT, FFT-A, or FFXII, but, heck, they're gonna be in FFZ, so they'll be in FFZ's "Ivalice." 

So, yeah, expect to see the name dropped.


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## I'm A Banana (Feb 25, 2007)

Now, the Black Magic spell list.

You'll see that in Rank 0, I also put how I plan on making all the elemental spells different from each other. Tentatively, the Fire/a/aga/aja spell suite will be quicker to cast, with a shorter SPD penalty than the others, making it useful when you are considering low SPD counts or extra turns. The Blizzard suite will have less of a MAG penalty for multiple targets, making it the perfect spell when going up against a group of creatures, sweeping a large, icy area. The Thunder suite won't allow the target to save against it (no MND check), making it great when you're looking to ensure you deal your damage. The Water suite costs slightly less mp than the rest, meaning it's essential for low-mp casters, or those who need a lot of staying power. 

After that, it's pretty obvious: quake deals more damage vs. burrowing, and flying creatures are immune. Aero is the opposite of this coin, dealing more damage vs. flying, and burrowing creatures are immune. Bio is your basic "rider" spell that has a status effect tacked onto the end.

At the peak, most spells gain a "rider" and a more balanced curve.

And yes, this signifies a lot of potential dice rolling for damage at high levels. That's part of why the Average Damage will be a highly encouraged rule. 

Rank 0
Firet: Deals 1d4 fire damage/MAG [is fast to cast]
Blizzet: Deals 1d4 cold damage/MAG [less penalty for multiple targets]
Thundet: Deals 1d4 electricity damage/MAG [no MND check]
Wateret: Deals 1d4 water damage/MAG [less mp]

Rank I
Quaket: Deals 1d6 earth damage/MAG, flying immune, burrowing 1d8/MAG
Aeret: Deals 1d6 wind damage/MAG, burrowing immune, flying 1d8/MAG
Bioet: Deals 1d4 shadow damage/MAG, chance of venom

Rank II
Fire: Deals 1d6 fire damage/MAG
Blizzard: Deals 1d6 cold damage/MAG
Thunder: Deals 1d6 electricity damage/MAG
Water: Deals 1d6 water damage/MAG

Rank III
Quake: Deals 1d8 earth damage/MAG, flying immune, burrowing 1d10/MAG
Aero: Deals 1d8 wind damage/MAG, burrowing immune, flying 1d10/MAG
Bio: Deals 1d6 shadow damage/MAG, chance of venom

Rank IV
Fira: Deals 1d8 fire damage/MAG
Blizzara: Deals 1d8 cold damage/MAG
Thundera: Deals 1d8 electricity damage/MAG
Watera: Deals 1d8 water damage/MAG

Rank V
Quakera: Deals 1d10 earth damage/MAG, flying immune, burrowing 1d12/MAG
Aera: Deals 1d10 wind damage/MAG, burrowing immune, flying 1d12/MAG
Biora: Deals 1d8 shadow damage/MAG, chance of venom

Rank VI
Firaga: Deals 1d10 fire damage/MAG
Blizzaga: Deals 1d10 fire damage/MAG
Thundaga: Deals 1d10 electricity damage/MAG
Waterga: Deals 1d10 water damage/MAG

Rank VII
Quakega: Deals 1d12 earth damage/MAG, flying immune, burrowing 2d8/MAG
Aeraga: Deals 1d12 wind damage/MAG, burrowing immune, flying 2d8/MAG
Bioga: Deals 1d10 shadow damage/MAG, chance of venom

Rank VIII
Firaja: Deals 1d12 fire damage/MAG
Blizzaja: Deals 1d12 cold damage/MAG
Thundaja: Deals 1d12 electricity damage/MAG
Waterja: Deals 1d12 water damage/MAG

Rank IX
Flare: Deals 2d8 fire damage/MAG
Freeze: Deals 2d6 cold damage/MAG, chance of paralysis
Storm: Deals 2d6 electricity damage/MAG, chance of muddle
Tsunami: Deals 2d6 water damage/MAG, chance of seal
Quakeja: Deals 2d8 earth damage/MAG, flying immune, burrowing 2d10/MAG
Aeraja: Deals 2d8 wind damage/MAG, burrowing immune, flying 2d10/MAG
Bioja: Deals 2d6 shadow damage/MAG, chance of venom

Rank X
Tornado: Deals 2d8 wind damage/MAG, chance of ejection
Entomb: Deals 2d8 earth damage/MAG, chance of petrify
Disease: Deals 2d8 shadow damage/MAG, chance of instant death
Doomsday: Deals 2d10 shadow damage/MAG
Ultima: Deals 2d8 non-elemental damage/MAG; no reduction for multiple targets


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## Malhost Zormaeril (Feb 27, 2007)

> Blizzaga: Deals 1d10 fire damage/MAG



Whoops.

Besides that, it has a good jive.  It's an alternating set of spells which improve every other rank, just flattened at the top because we don't have a Rank XI.  It's easy to remember.  I tried to figure out if there was a like pattern on the White list, but I wasn't able to see it.  Is there?

Also, I haven't played much in the way of later FFs.  That set of seven elements are from where?  I don't think I've seen them in I-VII or X, which are the ones I've played.  Tactics and XII, perhaps?


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## Exen Trik (Feb 27, 2007)

Malhost Zormaeril said:
			
		

> Also, I haven't played much in the way of later FFs.  That set of seven elements are from where?  I don't think I've seen them in I-VII or X, which are the ones I've played.  Tactics and XII, perhaps?



The Tactics games do have a couple of shadow (or dark) element effects, and some of the others have shadow themed stuff, but FFXI and FFXII are the only ones where the element is commonly used. This set of seven (or eight with holy/light element) is what is used in those games. Also, only in FFXI is there an association between it and the bio series of spells. 

The one thing here that is, so far as I know, completely new is the -et series of spells, the plainly named ones are usually the lowest tier available. It works here though, so I'm all for it.


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## I'm A Banana (Feb 28, 2007)

> Whoops.




Good catch! 



> Besides that, it has a good jive. It's an alternating set of spells which improve every other rank, just flattened at the top because we don't have a Rank XI. It's easy to remember. I tried to figure out if there was a like pattern on the White list, but I wasn't able to see it. Is there?




The white list has a few spells that are like that -- the Raise series, the Cure series, the "status recovery" series (I notice I didn't call out all of the spells that come from earlier spells  in that list, but that's a good identifier of a series). The Cure spells, specifically, should follow *nearly* the same arc as the elemental spells.



> Also, I haven't played much in the way of later FFs. That set of seven elements are from where? I don't think I've seen them in I-VII or X, which are the ones I've played. Tactics and XII, perhaps?




You got it. When more variety was present, I sided with that, because the spell list is *still* very anemic compared to, say, the core Wizard. But that's part of the balancing, factor, too.  Black mages aren't the Swiss Army Knives of the party the way D&D wizards are.



> The Tactics games do have a couple of shadow (or dark) element effects, and some of the others have shadow themed stuff, but FFXI and FFXII are the only ones where the element is commonly used. This set of seven (or eight with holy/light element) is what is used in those games. Also, only in FFXI is there an association between it and the bio series of spells.




Yup! I wanted the black mage to have basic access to a shadow-element spell, and I thought Bio as non-elemental would be a bit too potent, so I made it shadow, following 10. This also makes black mages serve as useful allies for undead -- Bio is a more potent undead-healing spell than Cure is a live-healing spell. 



> The one thing here that is, so far as I know, completely new is the -et series of spells, the plainly named ones are usually the lowest tier available. It works here though, so I'm all for it.




Glad you like it!


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## Exen Trik (Feb 28, 2007)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Yup! I wanted the black mage to have basic access to a shadow-element spell, and I thought Bio as non-elemental would be a bit too potent, so I made it shadow, following 10. This also makes black mages serve as useful allies for undead -- Bio is a more potent undead-healing spell than Cure is a live-healing spell.



You could also use Dark/Darkra/Darkga from FFXII for that purpose and keep bio firmly in it's "rider" niche but with non-elemental damage. Poison resistance/immunity could prevent damage from the bio series, as a balancing factor along with low damage.


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## I'm A Banana (Mar 1, 2007)

> You could also use Dark/Darkra/Darkga from FFXII for that purpose and keep bio firmly in it's "rider" niche but with non-elemental damage. Poison resistance/immunity could prevent damage from the bio series, as a balancing factor along with low damage.




That may end up happening eventually. As it is, the Dark series appears in the "occult" spell list, rather than the "black" spell list, meaning that Reapers access it, too (though they don't gain access to the basic elemental spells). I've done something similar with White Magic and the Banish series of spells from XI so that Crusaders can access curing magic (they gain White Magic), but not the holy-damage magic that white mages get.

I'm not sure how set in stone those lists are, though.

In part, I'm still wary of giving black mages a reliable non-elemental spell at low level. I like them having to choose until they get to the higher levels with spells like Ultima. Keeping non-elemental attacks firmly high-level and/or purely physical in nature is a division that the games have that I'd like to keep. If I do change Bio to non-elemental, I'd probably want to reduce it to a short, high-level-only chain.


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## Malhost Zormaeril (Mar 1, 2007)

Re. Bio:  My guess is that it's fine either way, but if I were designing it, I'd skip the straight damage altogether and just leave it up to the poison.  I assume you've already considered this option and discarded it; care to comment on any obvious (or non-obvious) impediments to that?


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## I'm A Banana (Mar 1, 2007)

> Re. Bio: My guess is that it's fine either way, but if I were designing it, I'd skip the straight damage altogether and just leave it up to the poison. I assume you've already considered this option and discarded it; care to comment on any obvious (or non-obvious) impediments to that?




Tracking statuses can get obnoxious.  

The Bio series (and spells like Scourge from FFXII) also have a history of dealing pretty good initial damage, too. I remember the spell in VI being a reliable group-extermination device right up to Kefka's Tower.


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## I'm A Banana (Mar 8, 2007)

Hey! Here comes the first Orisha! You should recognize him from a few games. 

This means that I've basically got all the necessary elements to make a game. Now I just need to put 'em together and expand 'em a little, and it's all down hill from here!


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## Arkhandus (Mar 8, 2007)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> .........and more flexible (low-level spells can be fairly cheaply turned into multi-target spells: no extra MP is spent, the spell is just weaker).



Y'know, I'm kinda leery of that.  Shouldn't multiple targets at least cost a bit more MP?  Like +50% or so, maybe?



> I'm torn often between simplifying the spell list (each spell should be useful at all levels, unless it's part of a chain that levels up...no spell should duplicate what another does with a minor variation) and keeping FF flavor (if Fire, Blizzard, and Thunder were all the same spell, it wouldn't feel right...)



I think I prefer the style of spells you've got going right now, rather than a super-simplified spell list that would kinda detract from the game's flavor.  The spell lists are reasonably sized as-is, so there's really no need to super-compact them.  I'd actually like to see a few more spells added (just a few, mind you; 1-2 per spell level, depending on what's added).



> White Magic
> Rank 0
> Comfort: Can Take 10 on *Endurnace* checks vs. the environment



Spell check: Endurance.



> Rank I
> Elemental Force Field: Gives a “buffer” with its own hp against a specific element
> Sanctuary: Creatures can’t attack target without a MND check; target can’t attack them
> Magic Parry: Target can negate an attack with an ATK check
> ...



What, no 1st-rank/1st-level healing spells?  From White Magic???  No way....  I think ya should add a *Regenet* to the Rank 1 White Magic spells.  Would grant fast healing, like fast healing 1, for a short duration (probably healing an amount moderately better than Curet?).



> Rank II
> Safe: +50% DEF and VIT.
> Shell: +50% MND.
> Spikes: Target is deals physical damage to their attackers



I reject the name Safe and compel you to rename it Protect!!     Also, Spikes' blurb is mixed up.  Guess it's supposed to say 'Target deals physical damage to their attackers.'



> Rank III
> Prolong Life: Target can remain at Wounded status for 10 + Con Mod. more hp.



I insist that *Regen* be added to Rank III; probably fast healing 2 or 3, otherwise like Regenet, but max healing would be somewhat beyond Cure.



> Rank V
> Nullspel: Strips all Boons from the target



Should probably/maybe be spelled as Nullspell......?  Also, I insist that *Regena*, *Regenra*, or *Regenera* be added to Rank V; likely to be fast healing 3 or 4, max healing a moderate amount above Cura.



> Rank VI
> Peerless: Target becomes invulnerable to damage
> 
> Rank VII
> Decoy: Willing target becomes the focus of enemy’s attentions



I would suggest swapping the levels these are at, or something similar; I think Peerless should be a higher-level effect, while Decoy really ought to be a bit lower, IMHO.  Also, again: I would add *Regenga*, *Regenega*, or *Regenerga* to Rank VII, giving fast healing 4 or 5 with a maximum amount of healing similar to, or a bit above, Curaga; and maybe the added effect of allowing severed limbs to be reattached during the spell's duration, as long as they haven't decomposed yet.



> Rank IX
> Full Life: Target is healed of Swoon status, and healed to maximum hp
> 
> Rank X
> ...



Question: why is Full Life a rank-9 spell while Full Cure is a rank-10 spell?  Full Life provides greater benefit.  Perhaps Full Cure should at least have some added advantage in that it can affect multiple targets with little or no penalties/extra costs/whatever?  And maybe a quicker casting time?

Additionally: Think there needs to be another 1-2 spells of Rank VIII, Rank IX, and Rank X.  Among them, *Regenja*, *Regeneja*, or *Regenerja* at Rank IX, giving fast healing of 5 or 6 (maybe 7 or 8?, even?) and a maximum healing value moderately greater than Curaja (maybe a shorter duration than earlier Regens though, if giving the boost of FH 7 or 8 instead of 5 or 6), and the added benefits of limb reattachment and limb regeneration (probably within 3d4 rounds for each severed limb?  Or maybe just at the end of the spell's duration?).


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## Arkhandus (Mar 8, 2007)

Also, a few brief thoughts on the Black Magic spell list:
I think the Thunder line might be too potent if it can't be resisted/saved against or whatever.  Maybe instead it should just incur a penalty on the foes' saves or whatever?

Also, I think there needs to be an Acid line of spells (maybe call 'em Melt?).


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## I'm A Banana (Mar 8, 2007)

I'll preface this by saying that it's all in the early phases, so it can change if there's definite problems noticed. 



> Y'know, I'm kinda leery of that. Shouldn't multiple targets at least cost a bit more MP? Like +50% or so, maybe?




It's a good fear. I debated between adding more MP, but found that it was pretty unnecessary since I'm also using the CRPG's method of simply reducing the effectiveness of spells. The PsiHB would be the model I would normally follow, and it costs more points to affect more targets, but the target is affected at "full strength," basically making it a higher-level power. Kind of like AE's idea of powering up a spell by spending a higher-level slot. Instead, I reduce the strength of the spell against multiple targets, basically making it a lower-level power. Kind of like AE's idea of powering-down a spell by spending a lower-level slot. So multiple targets are affected significantly less than a single target. Adding a higher mp cost would kind of be a double-whammy against spellcasters: They'd do less, and do it less often.



> I think I prefer the style of spells you've got going right now, rather than a super-simplified spell list that would kinda detract from the game's flavor. The spell lists are reasonably sized as-is, so there's really no need to super-compact them. I'd actually like to see a few more spells added (just a few, mind you; 1-2 per spell level, depending on what's added).




I think I've found the happy medium. Further boinking around might reveal a need for a few more spells per level, and there's always room to add cool new stuff.  New spells are going to be one of the easiest ways to expand the game for specific settings or styles.



> What, no 1st-rank/1st-level healing spells? From White Magic??? No way.... I think ya should add a Regenet to the Rank 1 White Magic spells. Would grant fast healing, like fast healing 1, for a short duration (probably healing an amount moderately better than Curet?).




Check Rank 0: Curet. The Cure series (like the Fire, Thunder, and Blizzard series) advances on even levels.

The regenet spell definately isn't a bad idea, though, and, yeah, like you said, a white magic level without healing is MADNESS.  Currently, I've just got "regen" as a Gray-magic spell that works like the opposite of venom, and I like the sound of the "regen" series you've got going on....it'll probably be YOINKED. 



> I would suggest swapping the levels these are at, or something similar; I think Peerless should be a higher-level effect, while Decoy really ought to be a bit lower, IMHO.




Good idea...having Peerless early allows people to do add Peerless to a target, then use Decoy, to basically make the party immune to damage for a few turns. That's a bit too simple for my tastes, so you'll probably see those swapped (at least...Peerless might end up quite high-level). 



> why is Full Life a rank-9 spell while Full Cure is a rank-10 spell? Full Life provides greater benefit. Perhaps Full Cure should at least have some added advantage in that it can affect multiple targets with little or no penalties/extra costs/whatever? And maybe a quicker casting time?




Another good catch! I like the idea of making Full Cure have less reduction against multiple targets, so that'll probably find it's way in, too. 



> Think there needs to be another 1-2 spells of Rank VIII, Rank IX, and Rank X. Among them, Regenja, Regeneja, or Regenerja at Rank IX, giving fast healing of 5 or 6 (maybe 7 or 8?, even?) and a maximum healing value moderately greater than Curaja (maybe a shorter duration than earlier Regens though, if giving the boost of FH 7 or 8 instead of 5 or 6), and the added benefits of limb reattachment and limb regeneration (probably within 3d4 rounds for each severed limb? Or maybe just at the end of the spell's duration?).




Pretty brilliant, man. I'll probably be taking that suggestion. Consider it added.


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## I'm A Banana (Mar 8, 2007)

> Also, a few brief thoughts on the Black Magic spell list:
> I think the Thunder line might be too potent if it can't be resisted/saved against or whatever. Maybe instead it should just incur a penalty on the foes' saves or whatever?
> 
> Also, I think there needs to be an Acid line of spells (maybe call 'em Melt?).




I'm a little worried about the Thunder series, too, so I like that suggestion. 

As far as an Acid line of spells goes, though there's no real precedent in the CRPG's, there's definitely nothing wrong with an acid series. I probably won't add it for the core, but it's a peachy-keen idea.


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## Malhost Zormaeril (Mar 11, 2007)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> I'm a little worried about the Thunder series, too, so I like that suggestion.
> 
> As far as an Acid line of spells goes, though there's no real precedent in the CRPG's, there's definitely nothing wrong with an acid series. I probably won't add it for the core, but it's a peachy-keen idea.




If there were an Acid line, Bio'd be it.  But it's already Shadow, so we'd be better off leaving it as is.  There could be an optional (house) rule making Dark Shadow and Bio Acid.

About the Regen series, we have to remember that _x_ hitpoints this round is better than _x + 1_ next round, so it should probably be balanced against the elemental attacks in the same level.  Perhaps heal half of an average elemental attack every round for four rounds, or something like it, otherwise it's too easy to kill a character off before the spell heals everything it could.


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## Arkhandus (Mar 11, 2007)

Malhost Zormaeril said:
			
		

> If there were an Acid line, Bio'd be it.  But it's already Shadow, so we'd be better off leaving it as is.  There could be an optional (house) rule making Dark Shadow and Bio Acid.




Naaah, I don't think Bio really fits as an acidic spell....it's more like toxins, diseases, cancers, rot, radiation poisoning, or flesh-destroying.  Of course, I really don't think it fits as a Shadow/Dark elemental spell, either.....Bio is called Bio because it attacks the living body, really.

I'd rather the Bio line just be separate poison/disease combination spells that afflict living bodies and have no elemental association, while some other Shadow/Dark spell replaces Bio as the life-force-destroying and undead-healing magic.  IIRC, the Drain spell in some Final Fantasies is Shadow/Dark elemental, and when it targets an undead, it has a reverse effect and drains the caster's HP to heal the undead target.  Maybe another line of spells is needed for Black Magic to have Shadow attack spells.....  Defilet, Defile, Defila, Defilega, and Defileja?  A life-attacking spell that has the reverse effect on undead, and causes gradual damage/healing?

The Bio line would, if I tinkered with it, probably do something like this: duration line would be "1 round per caster level", saving throw line would be "Fortitude partial or Fortitude negates (see text)", description would include "The target must succeed at a Fortitude save or be afflicted with a flesh-killing poison, and he or she must succeed at a second Fortitude save or be afflicted with a crippling disease.  If both saving throws succeed, this spell is negated.  If the first save fails, the subject takes X damage from poison, and then suffers an additional Y poison damage each round afterwards.  If the second saving throw fails, the subject is nauseated and sickened by disease for 1 round, then is sickened by disease for the rest of Bio's duration.  A sickened creature takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.  The poison and disease generated by this spell fades away at the end of the spell's duration, but this does not remove any damage dealt."  Dunno what the X and Y damage would be.  Likely depends on what spell levels Bio is put at (something like 2d4 damage at 1st or 2nd-level, and 1 damage per round afterward, while later versions would go up to 4d4 and 2/round, etc., or whatever).



			
				Malhost Zormaeril said:
			
		

> About the Regen series, we have to remember that _x_ hitpoints this round is better than _x + 1_ next round, so it should probably be balanced against the elemental attacks in the same level.  Perhaps heal half of an average elemental attack every round for four rounds, or something like it, otherwise it's too easy to kill a character off before the spell heals everything it could.




Hrmmm.  Maybe it should be: Regenet gives Fast Healing 3 for something like 5 or 10 rounds (dunno how much Curet would typically heal, so I dunno how much total healing Regenet should do), Regen gives FH 6, Regenera gives FH 9, Regeneraga gives FH 12, and Regeneraja gives FH 15....  Some of them may have shorter or longer durations than Regenet, depending on their level and how much damage/healing other spells of similar levels do.  The total healing of each Regen spell would be something around 130-180% of the previous level's Cure spells, though.


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## I'm A Banana (Mar 11, 2007)

P.S.:

Here's the Caller rough draft, the orisha Diagoro, and the example character caller.

...and to put the Bio convo in some perspective, here's a spell list that black mages ALSO gain access too (along with Reapers): the Occult Spell List

Occult Magic
Rank 0
Corruptet: Deals 1d4 shadow damage/MAG

Rank I
Sap: Deals 1d4 damage/MAG to target’s mp.

Rank II
Corrupt: Deals 1d6 shadow damage/MAG

Rank III
Swap: Exchange hp and mp with the target
Consume Life: Target in Wounded status becomes Swoon.

Rank IV
Corruptra: Deals 1d8 shadow damage/MAG

Rank V
Drain: Deals 1d6 damage/MAG; caster gains it
Osmose: Deals 1d6 damage/MAG to target’s mp; caster gains it
Bane: Target is instantly reduced to Wounded status

Rank VI
Corruptga: Deals 1d10 shadow damage/MAG (From Banishra)
Spirit Destroyer: Deals 1d4 damage/MAG to target’s LP

Rank VII
Death: Target is instantly killed

Rank VIII
Corruptja: Deals 1d12 shadow damage/MAG (From Banishaga)
Skeptic: Target’s rolls for their spells are minimized for MAG rounds
Chicken: Target’s rolls for their attacks are minimized for MAG rounds
Spirit Slayer: Target is forbidden from using Limits for a time

Rank IX
Zombie Servant: Target Swooned character rises as Zombie Servant under your command

Rank X
Doomsday: Deals 2d8 shadow damage/MAG (From Banishaja)
Spirit Stealer: Target is dealt 1d6 damage/MAG to their LP; caster gains it


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## Malhost Zormaeril (Mar 15, 2007)

Hmm, I've been analysing it, but don't have much to say... It seems pretty straightforward.  The only class powers are Summon -- and spells from the Orixá-specific list.  Is there a list of Orixás elsewhere I may have missed?  The Level 0 one on the example does not seem to confer any spells... is that right?


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## I'm A Banana (Mar 15, 2007)

> Hmm, I've been analysing it, but don't have much to say... It seems pretty straightforward. The only class powers are Summon -- and spells from the Orixá-specific list. Is there a list of Orixás elsewhere I may have missed? The Level 0 one on the example does not seem to confer any spells... is that right?




Yeah, this is one class that will get a LOT cooler as more stuff comes out for it.  Blue Mages will be similar. But since filling out extensive databases of information is kind of the tedious part, it might be a while...

And actually, Diagoro confers _Detect Magic_ at LV1 (and others as he levels up, of course). So that's why Deionera and Diagoro both know it.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Mar 25, 2007)

*Big Changes Coming...*

When puttering around with the Epic Advancement, I realized that a divided job and character level system would work much, MUCH better, and give that distinct FF feel. Since I'm already doing "two XPs" with XP and AP, my original argument of not wanting to do that is kind of moot. Plus, allowing "job changes" will allow more flexibility in playing the same characters, which something as story-focused as FFZ wants to be would be key. 

So characters will have a "bare" baseline, and the job will add mad bonuses.

It won't upset much other than the numbers that have come before. This is a fine-tuning more than a total overhaul.  

So the next things I'll be posting are the bits and pieces I'm using to make the jobs and everything hang together, and my thoughts on why I've chosen those particular mechanical crazinesses.


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## Cynlas (Mar 27, 2007)

Yeah!!


----------



## I'm A Banana (Apr 10, 2007)

PS: Also pay attention to Saga Edition Star Wars. It looks like it's gonna have plenty of good ideas for me to abscond with...


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 12, 2007)

...and I already am. 

Below is my current "Tables Document," the document that I'm using as a baseline to help me build the different jobs. Basically, I select a few choice advancements from these tables, slap them into a class, and add some abilities, and call it a night. 

I've got a few thoughts on each table along with the table...think of this something like my design bible. I've got a few middling things that I might want to sort out (like, I'm not sure that the mp cost for spells is where I want it to be), but this is what I'm using going forward.

Enjoy.

Now, to add the job-change information to a few documents...


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 29, 2007)

Here's a bit of something fun. I'm going to have some characters made, so I made up a questionnaire that relates to Character Concepts, and I'm having them take it. Check it out!

http://quizilla.com/users/daedaluswing/quizzes/Which Character Are You?/


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## I'm A Banana (May 6, 2007)

*The Soldier*

I don't have the racial traits here, and I'll be tinkering with the abilities a bit (12 attack rolls = NO!), but I'm going to be posting a full release-level .pdf of the Soldier job pretty soon.

The Soldier is a job I split off. The Chronist no longer exists (the Soldier is about the equivalent), but now we also have a Fencer. This was because there were WAY TOO MANY abilities to give them all their due as a Samurai. So I'm spreading it out a little bit and filling a few niches that weren't really encouraged earlier. 

For the Soldier, imagine it something like the FFT squire: a basic-level fighting class. BUT, it goes up to 50 like all the other jobs, and as it goes up it gets abilities like Braver and Omnislash and Lionheart and Quadra Slice....

It's a bit of a Frankenstien, but it's FFZ's "basic fighting-man." It'll be up pretty soon, here.


----------



## GnomeWorks (May 6, 2007)

Quick question - why can't blue mages use flails?


----------



## I'm A Banana (May 7, 2007)

There's no balance reason for it at all, I just don't remember them using flail-like weapons.  If you'd like to add 'em, go ahead. I'd keep their weapon list a bit limited, so they're not exceptionally versatile, but there'd be no significant harm in letting 'em use flails. 

The same is generally true of any of the weapons: the choice should be more about quantity and flavor, since the quality of many of the weapon types should be roughly equal.


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## GnomeWorks (May 7, 2007)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> There's no balance reason for it at all, I just don't remember them using flail-like weapons.




Quistis, from VIII. She definitely used whips.  

Also, I keep looking for how subclassing works in FFZ, but I haven't come across anything. Are you still working that out, or is it just not released yet (or did I manage to miss it)?


----------



## I'm A Banana (May 7, 2007)

Ah! You're right! How could I forget about hot for teacher? 

There's nothing released about multiclassing yet, because it's currently going through some revision in light of the recent decision to make job-changing on the fly possible. Tentatively, it's this:

[sblock]
==============
SWITCHING JOBS
==============
Job advancement and character advancement are seperate forces. A character advances according to the "BASE" class, and can have a number of job levels equal to their "BASE" level, assigned in whatever jobs they choose to assign their levels to. 

For instane, a character of level 5 ("BASE 5") can have 5 levels split between as many jobs as he has access to. In all situations, however, only the current highest statistic applies -- they do not add together. This means that if they split those 5 levels between 5 different jobs, it is entirely likely that they have may not have an ATK score greater than 1. Thus, there is a rule of diminishing returns on taking multiple jobs -- you gain more abilities, and more versatility, but you will loose on raw power. 

It is also impossible to increase a job level beyond the job level you have access to. That level 5 character above may not have any one job pushed beyond level 3, meaning even if he selects his level 3 job, he could select up to two others at level 1 (or one other at level 2). At all times, a character can only have one Primary Job, a job that they apply JP to increasing the job level of. All others are considered sub-jobs.

Jobs can be easily switched at any Camp location, simply by choosing to do so. You can also willfully reduce your level in a job. After conducting a job change, you will be handicapped for a time, spending 1 day with negative levels equal to your base level. 

In all cases, you do gain access to the job abilities of the job levels you possess (and you loose access if you reduce those job levels below the minimum level the job gains those abilities at). 


EXAMPLE:

Erika is a 10th-level character with access to the Soldier, Black Mage, White Mage, and Thief jobs. She has 10 job levels in Thief, 5 in Black Mage, 1 in Soldier, and 3 in White Mage. She can mix and match her 10 levels between any of these, gaining the appropriate powers for her total job levels. If she has puts 9 job levels in Thief and 1 job level in Soldier, she has access to all Thievery and Technique abilities of a 9th-level thief and a 1st-level Soldier. She also gains the higher of the jobs' hit points, magic points, ATK score, DEF score, VIT score, etc, depending upon which is higher. In this instance, she would have the thief's base HP (27), MP (23), ATK score (3), DEF score (2), VIT score (0), MAG score (2), MND score (2) and AGI score (4), and the soldier's base DMG rating (1d10). She would have access to 9th level Thievery abilities (Steal Gil, Escape, Unlock, Secret Passages, and Steal Item) and 1st level Technique abilities (Advance). She will suffer 10 Negative Levels for 1 day as she gets used to her new job.

Erika also needs to choose a primary job, a job that her earned JP will go to increasing. She selects Soldier. This gives her the Bonuses for the job levels she has in soldier (none, yet). She would get Bonuses if she selected Thief as her main job, but she cannot raise the level of her Thief job anymore until she gains more Base levels. She also gains the skill training and proficiencies of her new job. As it sits, Erika is basically a thief, but she deals more damage with a wider variety of weapons. She isn't quite as skilled as most theives, but that's probably because she's now training in heavier armor. She also can perofrm the Advance technique, gaining an edge to damage at the expense of her safety.  
[/sblock]

Also, here's the Soldier!


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## GnomeWorks (May 7, 2007)

Hmm... a very Tactics-like system. I enjoy it immensely. 

So you would have to track your base level, your max job level in all jobs you have access to, and how you've allocated your available levels into your jobs.

Would it be possible to have a higher max job level in a class than your base level?

Also, how do you plan on handing out JP? I think it would be interesting if you made XP the general combat benefit, but made JP job-specific. I'm not exactly certain how well that would work (and it would probably work better for some jobs than others), but it would allow you to make a bigger distinction between the two (unless you don't want that much of a distinction).


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## I'm A Banana (May 7, 2007)

> So you would have to track your base level, your max job level in all jobs you have access to, and how you've allocated your available levels into your jobs.




Yup. That *can* get complex, but I don't see people often gaining levels in more than 2-3 different jobs, due to the fact that there are diminishing returns on it that are fairly brutal. Multiclassing makes you weaker, and if you do it a lot, you might not be able to handle the challenge that faces you. Of course, you can change back into single-class pretty easily, so sometimes it might be smarter to go with breadth over depth. 



> Would it be possible to have a higher max job level in a class than your base level?




Nope. Your base level tracks your overall character power, the "absolute depth" you can reach. If you want a higher job level, you need a higher base level. Base level increases with XP, job level with JP.



> Also, how do you plan on handing out JP? I think it would be interesting if you made XP the general combat benefit, but made JP job-specific. I'm not exactly certain how well that would work (and it would probably work better for some jobs than others), but it would allow you to make a bigger distinction between the two (unless you don't want that much of a distinction).




Read my mind, actually. XP comes from character/story goals (protect your loved one, reveal your dark past, convince Cid to loan you the airship), JP comes from job-related goals (steal the gem, learn the spell, banish the undead, march on Provoka), and AP comes from encounters (beat up the goblin, sneak past the Soldiers, fight the Boss). Most of the time, these should come hand-in-hand, but it allows a DM to add some complexity (and some extended time between levels) if he desires. 

What I really wanted to accomplish was to allow both vertical and horizontal character advancement: you can go deep, gaining more power, or you can go broad, gaining more powers.  This means that a GM who finds a "sweet spot" can make it last virtually indefinitely while still rewarding characters significantly.


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## I'm A Banana (May 12, 2007)

Here, have some monsters...


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## GnomeWorks (May 12, 2007)

I am excited by blue magic!

Though I'm curious as to why you point out the family of monster the spell is learned from. Is that significant to the blue mage class, or simply for organizational purposes?


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## I'm A Banana (May 13, 2007)

> I am excited by blue magic!
> 
> Though I'm curious as to why you point out the family of monster the spell is learned from. Is that significant to the blue mage class, or simply for organizational purposes?




Largely organizational, so that a look at the Blue Magic spell list also kind of serves as a list of critters to hunt.


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## GnomeWorks (May 13, 2007)

Ah, fair enough.


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## I'm A Banana (May 25, 2007)

BUMP.

And stories of these guys in play? Anyone made some characters with the avialable classes yet?


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## I'm A Banana (Jun 9, 2007)

All right, then, here's the Geomancy spell list. Geomancers don't use MP (usually), they roll randomly for the Rank they can access depending on the terrain. High-level geomancers can choose from different terrains and gain a whole lot of movement abilities. 

Rock it.

Geomancy
Aquatic/Under Water/Beach
This environment specializes in cold and water damage, and has a few Instant Death abilities.
Habitat Aspect:+5 Swim, Underwater Breathing, deal Water damage with attacks
	Underwater Breathing: Can breathe normally in liquids
Rank I: Wild Bear: Heals 1d4 hp/MAG, grants a +5 bonus to Swim checks for 1 rd.
Rank II: Waterspout: Deals 1d6 water damage/MAG to one target 
Rank III: Ice Pillar: Deals 1d6 damage/MAG to one target. Damage is ½ Cold, ½ Physical
Rank IV: Sliprain: Deals 1d6 water damage/MAG plus Slow rider
Rank V: Rapids: Ejects target from battle
Rank VI: Freezeblink: Deals 1d8/MAG cold damage to all enemies 
Rank VII: Frog Song: As toad spell on all enemies.
Rank VIII: Water Ball: Deals 1d10 water damage/MAG plus Toad rider
Rank IX: El Niño: Deals 2d6 water damage/MAG to all enemies
Rank X: Whirlpool: Inflicts Instant Death on all enemies 

Desert
This environment is sacred to many and time appears to flow differently.
Habitat Aspect: +5 Endurance, Heatproof, deal Fire damage with attacks
	Heatproof: Immune to nonlethal damage due to extreme environmental heat
Rank I: Lagomorph: Heals 1d4 hp/MAG, grants a +5 bonus to Survival (desert) checks for 1 rd.
Rank II: Sand Storm: Deals 1d4 wind damage/MAG, burrowing immune, flying 1d6/MAG to all enemies plus Obscure rider
Rank III: Mongoose: Target looses their next turn
Rank IV: Kitty: As haste on entire party
Rank V: Fire Whip: Deals 1d8/MAG fire damage plus Disable rider
Rank VI: Quicksand: Deals 1d8/MAG water damage plus Doom rider 
Rank VII: Soil Evidence: Deals 1d10 earth damage/MAG to all enemies 
Rank VIII: Chocobo Rush: Deals 1d12 physical damage/MAG
Rank IX: Unicorn: Heals 2d6 hp/MAG to entire party
Rank X: Star Cross: Deals 2d6 holy damage/MAG to all enemies

Forest/Swamp/Jungle
This environment specializes in air damage and has a large amount of ailment-inducing powers.
Habitat Aspect: +5 Sneak, Sustained, deal Wind damage with attacks
	Sustained: No need to eat or drink
Rank I: Squirrel: Deals your damage to any creature in the encounter. Flying creatures are immune.
Rank II: Wind Slash: Deals 1d6 wind damage/MAG, burrowing immune, flying 1d8/MAG to all enemies
Rank III: Catnip: Inflicts Berserk on target; +4 MAG if creature is [feline] subtype.
Rank IV: Elf Fire: Deals 1d6 fire damage/MAG plus Sleep rider
Rank V: Kamaitachi: Deals 1d8/MAG air damage plus Disable rider,  burrowing immune, flying 1d10/MAG damage
Rank VI: Hell Ivy: Deals 1d8/MAG physical damage plus Immobilize rider 
Rank VII: Rage: Deals 1d12 wind damage/MAG, burrowing immune, flying 2d8/MAG to all enemies.
Rank VIII: Falcon: Deals damage equal to ¾ the target’s current hp.
Rank IX: Friend: Calls a random summoned beast to attack
Rank X: Harvester: As esuna on entire party. 

Mountain/Canyon
This environment specializes in damaging others, mostly through Earth-based attacks.
Habitat Aspect: +5 Climb, Catfall, deal Earth damage with attacks
	Catfall: ½ falling damage
Rank I: Wild Boar: Deals your damage to any creature in the encounter. Flying creatures are immune.
Rank II: Earth Heal: Heals 1d6 hp/MAG as earth elemental
Rank III: Local Quake: Deals 1d6/MAG earth damage plus Muddle rider, flying immune, burrowing 1d8/MAG damage
Rank IV: Gusty Wind: Deals 1d6/MAG wind damage plus Slow rider
Rank V: Sonic Boom: Reduces one target’s current hp by ½ plus Knocked Down rider 
Rank VI: Heavy Dust: Deals 1d8/MAG earth damage plus Immobilize rider 
Rank VII: Prominence: Deals 1d10/MAG fire damage to all enemies
Rank VIII: Land Slide: Deals 2d6/MAG earth damage to a single target.
Rank IX: Ice Storm: Deals 1d12/MAG cold damage to all enemies
Rank X: Earthquake: Deals 2d8/MAG earth damage to all enemies, flying immune, burrowing 2d10/MAG damage

Plains/Sky/Savannah
This environment specializes in damaging others, mostly through Air-based attacks.
Habitat Aspect: +5 Perception, Stormproof, deal Electricity damage with attacks
	Stormproof: Immune to nonlethal damage due to environmental precipitation. 
Rank I: Air Blade: Deals 1d6 wind damage/MAG, burrowing immune, flying 1d8/MAG
Rank II: Shining Air: Deals 1d4/MAG air damage plus Obscure rider
Rank III: 100% Wool: +MAG bonus to MND and VIT for caster
Rank IV: Bees: Deals 1d6/MAG physical damage to all enemies
Rank V: Sun Bath: Heals 1d6 hp/MAG for the entire party 
Rank VI: Plasma: Deals 1d10/MAG electricity damage to a single target
Rank VII: Tempest: Deals 1d10/MAG electricity damage to all enemies
Rank VIII: Wild Tornado: Deals 2d6/MAG air damage to all enemies, burrowing immune, flying 2d8/MAG damage
Rank IX: Shadow Flare: Deals 2d8/MAG shadow damage to one target
Rank X: Earthquake: Deals 2d8/MAG non-elemental damage to all enemies. 

Tundra/Glacier
This environment is good at healing and has a few all-or-nothing style attacks
Habitat Aspect: +5 Tumble, Freezeproof, deal Cold damage with attacks.
	Freezeproof: Immune to nonlethal damage due to environmental cold. 
Rank I: White Flame: Heals 1d4/MAG damage, grants +5 bonus to Endurance checks
Rank II: Sheep Count: Afflicts all enemies with Sleep status
Rank III: Snowball: Reduces target’s current hp by ¼ 
Rank IV: Blizzard: Deals 1d6/MAG cold damage plus Seal rider
Rank V: Evil Gaze: Deals 1d6 hp/MAG shadow damage plus Muddle rider 
Rank VI: Ice Rabbit: Heals 1d8 hp/MAG for the entire party
Rank VII: Deluge: Deals 1d10/MAG water damage to all enemies
Rank VIII: Snare: Instant Death to one target
Rank IX: Surge: Deals 2d6/MAG cold damage to all enemies
Rank X: Cuisine: Heals all hit point damage for one target 

Urban/Artificial/Cave
This environment is heavy in status-altering effects and many Instant Death effects
Habitat Aspect: +5 Diplomacy, Night Vision, deal Shadow damage with attacks
	Night Vision: Can see normally in environmental darkness. 
Rank I: Poison Frog: Deals 1d4/MAG damage plus Venom rider
Rank II: Flame Burst: Deals 1d6/MAG fire damage to one enemy
Rank III: Specter: Afflicts all enemies with Muddle ailment 
Rank IV: Pitfall: Deals 1d6/MAG earth damage plus Immobilize rider
Rank V: Cave In: Reduces target’s current hp by ¼  
Rank VI: Carve Model: Heals 1d8 hp/MAG plus Petrify rider
Rank VII: Magma: Deals 1d10/MAG fire damage to all enemies
Rank VIII: Black Hole: Causes Instant Death to one target 
Rank IX: Lava Ball: Deals 1d12/MAG fire damage with Instant Death rider
Rank X: Tapir: As esuna on entire party


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 18, 2007)

For any who are still paying attention...

The Skills! I've largely finalized them, and you'll see a lot of similarities to SAGA edition Star Wars.


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## Slife (Jul 18, 2007)

Arkhandus said:
			
		

> Naaah, I don't think Bio really fits as an acidic spell....it's more like toxins, diseases, cancers, rot, radiation poisoning, or flesh-destroying.  Of course, I really don't think it fits as a Shadow/Dark elemental spell, either.....Bio is called Bio because it attacks the living body, really.
> 
> I'd rather the Bio line just be separate poison/disease combination spells that afflict living bodies and have no elemental association, while some other Shadow/Dark spell replaces Bio as the life-force-destroying and undead-healing magic.  IIRC, the Drain spell in some Final Fantasies is Shadow/Dark elemental, and when it targets an undead, it has a reverse effect and drains the caster's HP to heal the undead target.  Maybe another line of spells is needed for Black Magic to have Shadow attack spells.....  Defilet, Defile, Defila, Defilega, and Defileja?  A life-attacking spell that has the reverse effect on undead, and causes gradual damage/healing?



In FF5, at least, Bio heals the undead.


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## HeinorNY (Jul 18, 2007)

http://bluwiki.com/go/Finalfantasysaga
http://bluwiki.com/go/Ivalice


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 19, 2007)

Neat, aintan. A little to heavily SAGA and not enough Final Fantasy for my tastes, but definitely something to learn from...


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## Cynlas (Aug 25, 2007)

*cool*

I'm still here!


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## I'm A Banana (Nov 1, 2007)

Me too....


....just looking forward to killing 4e and taking it's stuff.


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## GnomeWorks (Feb 29, 2008)

Any updates, KM?


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## Arkhandus (Mar 1, 2008)

Slife said:
			
		

> In FF5, at least, Bio heals the undead.



Responding to something rather old (dunno why I didn't notice it months ago), but....that was before the Dark/Shadow element was introduced formally as an opposite to Healing/Holy effects.  With a Dark or Shadow element, it'd be best for that to heal undead and harm the living, but Bio really seems more oriented towards just being a poison-and-slowly-kill-the-living spell line.



			
				Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Me too....
> 
> ....just looking forward to killing 4e and taking it's stuff.



I'd rather you didn't, heh, not that my opinion matters.    I'd rather see the stuff be 3E-compatible.  Too bad I don't have a proper group to try this stuff out with right now.


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## Stomphoof (Mar 3, 2008)

Does anyone have a full list of the all the PDF's so far released for this system?  I am curious about it.


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## Arkhandus (Mar 4, 2008)

Just scroll up to the first post on this page, and click the spoiler button in Kamikaze Midget's signature.  He has the links for his FFZ PDFs in there, aside from the few more recent PDFs that he put in posts on this page (and maybe the previous page).


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## Exen Trik (Mar 14, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> looking forward to killing 4e and taking it's stuff.



We have quite of bit of 4e stuff to work with now, how goes the killing and looting thereof?


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 4, 2008)

_The Moogles have been tinkering..._

_Gilgamesh has been searching..._

_The Crystal was shedding it's light silently..._​
Super-secret members-only preview behind the spoiler bar...website coming in the fall...the world hasn't seen the last of Final Fantasy Zero...

[sblock]

Cloud is a level 1 genome samurai.

Combat Stats 
HP: 34, MP 22 

Attacks: Katana +2 (1d10, For 5)

    BUSHIDO:

    ~ Sparkler +0 Ranged Magick Single (5 mp, 1d6, Sor -2)

Defenses: Weapon 12 (Vit 3), Magick 10 (Spr -3)

Luk +2, Agi +0

Stats: Str 18 (+4), Dex 11 (+0), Con 14 (+2), Int 7 (-2), Wis 5 (-3), Cha 12 (+1)

Limit: Monstrosity (Four melee attacks at 4x damage each attack).

Limit Modes: Stioc, Warrior

Passive Stats

    Equipment: Buster Sword, Bronze Plate

    Totema: None

    Tribal Trait: Inhuman Strength (+1 dmg with physical attacks)

    Job Traits: Plate Armor (Bronze Plate: +1 Vit), Katana (Buster Sword: +1 Luk); Doublehand (+2 Force when not using an accessory)

    Tribal Art (Genome Soldier): Quick Katana: 1 less delay on Bushido abilities




[/sblock]


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## Alzrius (Apr 4, 2008)

So...is it staying 3.5-based, or going 4E, or what?


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 4, 2008)

> So...is it staying 3.5-based, or going 4E, or what?




As always: Cherry-picking from everything. 

To add a little more detail with the edit: Ideally, like your AE Greenbond, you'll be able to run your FFZ moogle right beside your 3.5 Tatooed Monk, and like your Eberron gnome artificer, also right beside your 4.0 Warlord, and possibly right beside your SWSE Jedi.

I'm not sure how achievable that is entirely, but that's what between now and the fall is for.  I've got a game here, I just need to see how it runs alongside the other games. Like "Compared to 3rd edition characters, FFZ characters will be more robust at first level, but with a few less strategic options" and "Compared to 4th edition characters, FFZ characters won't be able to freely modify their attacks as often, but they will have more variety in their per-encounter powers."

Full adventure coming with the website....


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## Exen Trik (Apr 4, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Super-secret members-only preview behind the spoiler bar...website coming in the fall...the world hasn't seen the last of Final Fantasy Zero...
> [snip stats]



As always, an interesting blend of D&D and videogame elements, and now 4e makes it even more interesting. Some questions (which you don't have to answer ):

-Are Vitality, Luck and Spirit just renamed Fortitude, Reflex and Will?

-Still using an incremental initiative, instead of round based?

-Not taking advantage of healing surge mechanics? How about encounter/daily powers?

-Are limits/totema necessarily parts of the system, or can a game or just individual characters be balanced without them?

-Why wait until fall? I'd make an alpha preview game for level 1 adventuring sooner than that, if I were making such a game.


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 5, 2008)

> -Are Vitality, Luck and Spirit just renamed Fortitude, Reflex and Will?




Not exactly. Vitality is more like DR, Luck is kind of new, and Spirit is kind of like DR for spells.



> -Still using an incremental initiative, instead of round based?




I've smoothed out some of the earlier notes so that it is round-based, but it changes from round to round. 



> -Not taking advantage of healing surge mechanics? How about encounter/daily powers?




Limits are now like daily powers. Most MP-based effects are like encounter powers. Most Delay-based effects are like at-will powers. FFZ characters should be at nearly full power at the start of every encounter, and every encounter should be kind of dangerous.



> -Are limits/totema necessarily parts of the system, or can a game or just individual characters be balanced without them?




You could go without them, if you want. Just means the DM drops the boss's hp. They follow an expected formula, so it's pretty easy to just remove that formula. 



> -Why wait until fall? I'd make an alpha preview game for level 1 adventuring sooner than that, if I were making such a game




I want to kind of have a "release" with the website. I also want to give me time to work in any 4e aspects we're still missing, and to hone the adventure to a fine point. A preview game is a definite possibility before then, though, especially if the June release won't reveal too many more big ideas.


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## Exen Trik (Apr 5, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Not exactly. Vitality is more like DR, Luck is kind of new, and Spirit is kind of like DR for spells.



Interesting. I wonder how that will compare to 4e resistances. Are you still using the F/R/W defenses, though?



> I've smoothed out some of the earlier notes so that it is round-based, but it changes from round to round.



A little more rolling, but no additional bookkeeping. Just enough to allow for the delay mechanic, yes?



> Limits are now like daily powers. Most MP-based effects are like encounter powers. Most Delay-based effects are like at-will powers. FFZ characters should be at nearly full power at the start of every encounter, and every encounter should be kind of dangerous.



Is this only in reference to strength, or frequency? 

I can see limits as simply per day, or being a little more common like action points. Your reference to limit modes indicate some way of earning them, possibly using a 4e monster styled recharge mechanic, that triggers under certain conditions?

MP using powers like spells are, if styled after the games, usable round after round like an at will power, but limited by MP so it they should be around the power of a per encounter ability. Depending how easily and often MP is regained and what the costs look like, they might be either stronger or weaker. Probably either, depending on power.

Delay based powers sound interesting. Assuming it is some kind of one round initiative modifying effect, you would have strong moves landing more likely after enemies, and faster ones earlier. I can already see using fast powers followed by slow ones to try and double up your actions before the enemy can react. I think was doing the same thing in FFT actually.



> You could go without them, if you want. Just means the DM drops the boss's hp. They follow an expected formula, so it's pretty easy to just remove that formula.



Ah, so I take it a FF7 themed character with limits wouldn't be balanced if paired with a FF4 themed character without them? Not really a problem I guess, so long as limits cover all the themes you're aiming to use.



> I want to kind of have a "release" with the website. I also want to give me time to work in any 4e aspects we're still missing, and to hone the adventure to a fine point. A preview game is a definite possibility before then, though, especially if the June release won't reveal too many more big ideas.



An early open playtest of the basic mechanics and ideas was my notion, with the disclaimer that some or all of it may be altered or scrapped before actual release. It would be useful feedback methinks.


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 6, 2008)

> Interesting. I wonder how that will compare to 4e resistances. Are you still using the F/R/W defenses, though?




I'm rolling all the defenses into one over-arching magical defense and one over-arching physical defense. Similar to how 4e is combining Reflex defense with AC, I just go a few steps further, since it is more true-to-the-game.



> A little more rolling, but no additional bookkeeping. Just enough to allow for the delay mechanic, yes?




No more than I need, I'm not a fan of much added rolling or bookkeeping.  It's kind of a "phase" of your combat round, a la 4e. You first account for any ongoing effects, you then take your actions, and you finally resolve any ongoing effects and apply our delay. 



> Is this only in reference to strength, or frequency?




Limits will describe about how many encounters you'll have in a day (which is very flexible), though you could always push a bit harder and have more limits or not push to that point and not use limits at all. HP and MP are, as in 3e and 4e, basically per-encounter resources (HP a little less so).



> Your reference to limit modes indicate some way of earning them, possibly using a 4e monster styled recharge mechanic, that triggers under certain conditions?




More similar to Action Points than recharge mechanics. It's measured in how many encounters you have. Limit Modes just allow you to gain limits for doing things other than being beaten up in an encounter. 



> MP using powers like spells are, if styled after the games, usable round after round like an at will power, but limited by MP so it they should be around the power of a per encounter ability. Depending how easily and often MP is regained and what the costs look like, they might be either stronger or weaker. Probably either, depending on power.




You got it. I think that's a key aspect of the games' resource management. But I'll be taking a page from FFT/TA/11/12 and having MP regenerate, so you're not tempted to save it all for a big blast and then spend the rest of the combats just attacking. Use your powers! They're there for that!



> Delay based powers sound interesting. Assuming it is some kind of one round initiative modifying effect, you would have strong moves landing more likely after enemies, and faster ones earlier. I can already see using fast powers followed by slow ones to try and double up your actions before the enemy can react. I think was doing the same thing in FFT actually.




That's exactly what I'm trying to replicate, kind of a middle ground between ATB (pretty impossible on the table top) and round-based (makes speed a bit too useless). I also think FF13's round system is going to be interesting (you input a chain of attacks?), so I might end up stealing from that after it's out. For now, the key is to juggle actions so that you release big enough attacks, without loosing turns. If you do loose a turn, it's always your choice (reflecting the 4e idea that losing turns is bad juju). 



> Ah, so I take it a FF7 themed character with limits wouldn't be balanced if paired with a FF4 themed character without them? Not really a problem I guess, so long as limits cover all the themes you're aiming to use.




Not really -- limits are a blatant power up. That's kind of the fun of 'em, after all. I don't think a diversity of limits will be a problem. A character should have a few different limits at their disposal over the course of their careers, with effects from damage to healing to protection to instant-enemy KO...

You could still play a more "old school" game without them, but you'll need to adhere to the other "old school" considerations, too, in that case. Or just give Cecil and Rydia and Edge limit breaks (come on, you know it'd be cool...)



> An early open playtest of the basic mechanics and ideas was my notion, with the disclaimer that some or all of it may be altered or scrapped before actual release. It would be useful feedback methinks.




Well, that's kind of always going to be true.  There's definite possibility for this, after 4e comes out, but I want to make sure to loot 4e for all the good ideas it has, and to ensure a sort of compatibility, before I tell everyone to have fun with it.


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## Exen Trik (Apr 6, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> I'm rolling all the defenses into one over-arching magical defense and one over-arching physical defense. Similar to how 4e is combining Reflex defense with AC, I just go a few steps further, since it is more true-to-the-game.



Hmm, I don't really consider the details of the mechanics like that important to port over, but Final Fantasy powers are a fair bit simpler than D&D so it does fit. The only other option is to make powers more complicated than they need to be.

And a little known fact: FF6 has some magical effects that use a different hit rate that is based on stamina. In other words, just like a Fortitude defense!



> No more than I need, I'm not a fan of much added rolling or bookkeeping.  It's kind of a "phase" of your combat round, a la 4e. You first account for any ongoing effects, you then take your actions, and you finally resolve any ongoing effects and apply our delay.
> ...
> That's exactly what I'm trying to replicate, kind of a middle ground between ATB (pretty impossible on the table top) and round-based (makes speed a bit too useless).



You could keep the same idea and negate the need for rolling every round, just have a single initiative but split it into Normal Fast and Delayed rounds, depending what action you take, or if you are hasted/slowed. Or even split it into five if you want more granularity. Just a thought.



> More similar to Action Points than recharge mechanics. It's measured in how many encounters you have. Limit Modes just allow you to gain limits for doing things other than being beaten up in an encounter.



It can't really judge without seeing the specifics, but this sounds like at least a small pain to keep track of, if you need to both remember what conditions apply to it and how often it does. At least it is measured in encounters, and not necessarily a round by round consideration.



> You got it. I think that's a key aspect of the games' resource management. But I'll be taking a page from FFT/TA/11/12 and having MP regenerate, so you're not tempted to save it all for a big blast and then spend the rest of the combats just attacking. Use your powers! They're there for that!



If MP regenerates, between battles, so does HP if you have any kind of cure magic about. Might as well just say "restore all HP and MP between encounters". It is simple and effective if you build everything around that, but it does negate the tropes of finding that healing pool or crystal or needing to rest at an inn.



> You could still play a more "old school" game without them, but you'll need to adhere to the other "old school" considerations, too, in that case. Or just give Cecil and Rydia and Edge limit breaks (come on, you know it'd be cool...)



Oh yeah it can certainly work well enough, just trying to see how flexible your system is looking. I'm all about games being adaptable and modular, but you know that already. 



> Well, that's kind of always going to be true. There's definite possibility for this, after 4e comes out, but I want to make sure to loot 4e for all the good ideas it has, and to ensure a sort of compatibility, before I tell everyone to have fun with it.



Well then, I have yet another reason to be exited about the release of 4e.


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 7, 2008)

> Hmm, I don't really consider the details of the mechanics like that important to port over, but Final Fantasy powers are a fair bit simpler than D&D so it does fit. The only other option is to make powers more complicated than they need to be.
> 
> And a little known fact: FF6 has some magical effects that use a different hit rate that is based on stamina. In other words, just like a Fortitude defense!




Simplicity has always been gospel for this game, moreso than I think standard D&D could get away with.  

The idea of "all defenses are one defense" is more about compatibility, though. If your rulebook says "Intelligence vs. Fortitude"  you're going to want to know how that hits an FFZ character, who doesn't have anything called "Fortitude." 

Without bringing in other games, it makes a ridiculous amount of sense -- if you're whacked by a sword, use one defense. If you're doomed by a spell, use another. Most things in the world will be one or the other (even if the spell makes a weapon or if the weapon casts a spell). 



> You could keep the same idea and negate the need for rolling every round, just have a single initiative but split it into Normal Fast and Delayed rounds, depending what action you take, or if you are hasted/slowed. Or even split it into five if you want more granularity. Just a thought.




Though initiative changes round to round, you won't have to reroll it. But good ideas, I'll be considering them...streamlining the init system while still retaining some idea of delay, casting time, and weapon speed, is going to be a neat balancing act. 



> It can't really judge without seeing the specifics, but this sounds like at least a small pain to keep track of, if you need to both remember what conditions apply to it and how often it does. At least it is measured in encounters, and not necessarily a round by round consideration.




It's slightly easier to keep track of than action points, and has a bigger effect. It's more like you're charging up your big daily attack, and less like you're fiddling with bonii. And by about the time you have it charged, there will probably be a boss around to unleash it on (bosses are kind of like the monsters' own limit breaks. )

The conditions are under the players' control, each person will know when they start to build their limit break, and because they are so powerful (something like 8 times the power of a normal attack), people will want to light them off as much as possible, right? 

Limit Modes are just different ways to charge it up other than the default (which is, basically, when you're bloodied, you start to charge up your limit).

It's partially a pacing consideration, too, coming from a very narrative place. Each day has it's own action arc: it begins, there's rising action that builds to a climax and then ends (basically). As the action rises, you will be approaching your big daily ability, and then, right at the climax, you get to use it.



> If MP regenerates, between battles, so does HP if you have any kind of cure magic about. Might as well just say "restore all HP and MP between encounters". It is simple and effective if you build everything around that, but it does negate the tropes of finding that healing pool or crystal or needing to rest at an inn.




Yeah, that's pretty much what the draft document in front of me says.  HP and MP as a per-encounter resource. 4e goes in a similar direction, the use of healing surges just makes sure you DO have a finite pool of hp in a day (even if it's full at every encounter). I'm not worried about that in default FFZ, though they're easy enough to add in when you're mixing and matching games.



> Well then, I have yet another reason to be exited about the release of 4e.




I'm thinking it'll be the most poachable edition yet for Final Fantasy style adventure.


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## tyciol (May 8, 2008)

The way many of the items worked in FF6 was definately pretty cool, I liked how some like the dragon boots actually imparted abilities you used to need a class to get.


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## I'm A Banana (Dec 10, 2008)

So as a sort of general update for this thread (so subscribers will know): most of the development work now goes on in my ENWorld blog (link is, as usual, in the sig). I've incorporated a lot of lessons from 4e and from other games, and it is at a point where it can even be playtested (at least, combat-playtested) if you'd like to give it a whirl.

Pop on over and let me know you're there.


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