# Melee Cleric Build



## Goodlad (Feb 9, 2010)

Hey everyone,

Im just givig a mate a hand building a cleric for 3.5
Although im not too familiar with cleric prestige classes, they are the only class i have never played so i need a bit of help to help him.

The game is going to be a plane scape campaign.

My mate likes the idea of being a hard hitter in melee but also with the funky abilities of a cleric. I think he might be asking too much?

Does anyone have any advice on cleric builds/prestige classes that are nice?

Our games are pretty much always a power gamers game so dont hold back wit any "broken" ideas.


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## Dandu (Feb 9, 2010)

The Cleric Handbook


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## Thanee (Feb 9, 2010)

Broken: Divine Metamagic + Persistent Spell and a wagonload of _Nightsticks_. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Goodlad (Feb 9, 2010)

Thanee said:


> Broken: Divine Metamagic + Persistent Spell and a wagonload of _Nightsticks_.
> 
> Bye
> Thanee





Hmmmm thats interesting.
On a side not for my own char, wizard + Sacred exorcist = Wizard with turning!  Then the wizard can take Divine Metamagic.....


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## Dandu (Feb 10, 2010)

Make sure to read DMM closely. It may only work for Divine spells.


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## Goodlad (Feb 17, 2010)

Hey guys, i just need to re-visit this thread because im getting a bit over whelmed with the options here.

What we are looking at now is the prestige class Ordained Champion.
Its pretty damn nice, the loss of caster levels isnt a preference but the melee abilitys from the class are great, especially sticking spells into your weapon.

As for the persist spell combo with night sticks: DM says no. Although i expected that.

So what im looking at now is the feats for a melee cleric, you guys any recommendations?

Im also looking at alternate class features, some are kinda nice but i just cant decide on them.

Also, the ordaned champion has to worship one of two gods.
The choice will be hextor which gives the following domains "Destruction, dominate, evil, law, war"

War is nice because it gives weapon focus for free which covers the feat req for ordanied champion. Both destruction and dominate are also nice.

The alternate feature from complete mage to drop a domain and essentially make your own from the wizard spell list is nice, even if the choice is only from certan schools.

Do you think its worth dropping either destruction or dominate to get that?

Also, any other ideas for melee cleric feats? My brain is ready to melt from researching it, lol

Edit: I just want to add that he will also be dual weilding flails, they are hextors favoured weapon. One can be light and just drop damage dice and with two weapon fighting the penalty is only -2/-2

The aim is also to have an animated shield to help bring AC up.


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## Dandu (Feb 17, 2010)

Do not dual wield. Your DPS will thank you.


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## Goodlad (Feb 17, 2010)

Dandu said:


> Do not dual wield. Your DPS will thank you.




Just to reply to what you said before the edit.
Smiting spell sucks compared to the ability the ordained champion gets.

If i can ask, how will the damage of the priest suck if he dual weilds?
I know with a 2 hander you will get more damage from your strength and odds are the weapon will have a better damage dice.

But with dual weilding and only having a minus 2 to hit, then if you factor in the reserve feat holy warrior, your getting a plus to damage on each hit equal to the highest war domain spell you have on memory. 

If im missing something please let me know though.

Since the persist spell and the rod combo is out, im going to use diving metamagic with extend spell, it will come in handy i think.

I was considering using quicken for divine metamagic but i dont think i could afford it with the lack of rods giving extra turning to burn.

EDit: The favoured weapon of hextor is the flail.. so im kinda stuck using that since the bonus feats from the war domain are in the favoured weapon. So its either a case of using a flail and a shield or dual weilding flails (one downsized to light) and just get the animated shield.


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## Dandu (Feb 18, 2010)

Duel Wielding means you have to put points into Dex, taking points away from Strength, Con, and Wis.

Tell you what. Calculate your stats, HP, AB and damage at a given level, and we'll match it up to a THFing melee character and a THFing cleric, and see how it compares.

In any case, spending a feat to do the same amount of damage/less damage than you would have normally done is probably not a very good idea.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Feb 18, 2010)

Dandu said:


> Duel Wielding means you have to put points into Dex, taking points away from Strength, Con, and Wis.




There's also the Agile Shield Fighter feat from PH2 and the Gloves of the Balanced Hand item from Magic Item Compendium.  So a high dex isn't necessarily required unless he wants to eventually get more than 1 extra off-hand attack.

EDIT: Of course the former would require dual wielding with a shield instead.  I don't get why using a shield is so awful, though.  At lower levels it's some nice, cheap AC.


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## Dandu (Feb 18, 2010)

Using a shield is bad because you don't get much AC at mid to high levels, you have to invest in at least one feat in order to to use it as a weapon, and by then you're two weapon fighting, a style that is inferior to two handed fighting unless you have a source of bonus damage such as sneak attack.


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## Goodlad (Feb 18, 2010)

The DM gave us our statsa for the chars.

We have 18,16,16,14,14,10

So the 18,16,16 will be distributed to strength,con and wisdom.
The 14 can go into dex and then at 4th level the +1 stat can be put into dex to bring that to 15 which is whats needed for two weapon fighting.

If we base things off say a level 9 cleric which will be cleric 4,ordained champion 5.

*Attack:*

Base Attack: +8
Strength (16): +3
Weapon focus Flail from the war domain: +1
Two weapon fighting -2

Total attack bonus : +10


*Damage:*

Main hand:
D8 + 3 

Offhand:
D6 + 3

Now factor in the reserve feat:
At this stage i will have access to level 4th level spells because of the two caster level drops. So this will give me an additional +4 to damage on each attack.

So the damage from each attack will be +7 now.

Of couse i didnt factor in any stat items, magic weapons or anything.

Usine the same setup:

A greatsword for example:

*Attack:*

Base attack +8
Strength (16) +3

Total attack bonus : +11


*Damage:*

2D6 + 4

So it either 2D6+4 or D8+7, D6+7

While the top end damage comes off better with the 2 hander, you will do only slightly less damage with the dual weild but you will also get more swings which brings the damage above the 2 hander (provided you hit with the extra swings).

With spells like magic weapon/greater magic weapon. The difference between dual weild and a 2 hander will widen more since you can enchant both weapons with dual weild.


Sorry if that was all a bit long or over the top! lol

Im just posting it rather than working it out on paper so you can see it and agree/dis-agree or just give your thoughts in general on it.


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## Dandu (Feb 18, 2010)

Keep in mind there's a lot of good spells and enchantments for weapons, for which you will have to pay double for if you want to enchant a double weapon.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Feb 18, 2010)

Dandu said:


> Using a shield is bad because you don't get much AC at mid to high levels, you have to invest in at least one feat in order to to use it as a weapon, and by then you're two weapon fighting, a style that is inferior to two handed fighting unless you have a source of bonus damage such as sneak attack.




So don't use it as a weapon then.  A heavy shield adds +2 to +7 AC, I fail to see how that is a small amount.  Granted, later levels you can pay for a +5 animated shield.  But by then...nothing's stopping you from switching to 2H fighting anyway.  What kind of build did you have in mind where 2 handing a flail will make a much bigger difference over one hand?  Aside from Power Attack.


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## Dandu (Feb 18, 2010)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> So don't use it as a weapon then.  A heavy shield adds +2 to +7 AC, I fail to see how that is a small amount.



AB scales much more quickly than your ability to have AC, unless you focus heavily on it.

Then you find that your lack money for other things, and die anyways because high AC is meaningless against many opponents.



> What kind of build did you have in mind where 2 handing a flail will make a much bigger difference over one hand?  Aside from Power Attack.



Power Attack.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Feb 18, 2010)

Dandu said:


> AB scales much more quickly than your ability to have AC, unless you focus heavily on it.




At higher levels, good AC protects you from iterative attacks.  And prevents some crazy melee cleric or what have you from unloading on you with full power attack.



Dandu said:


> Then you find that your lack money for other things, and die anyways because high AC is meaningless against many opponents.




1.) Armor bonuses cost half as much as weapon bonuses.  For the price of upgrading a +2 weapon to a +3 weapon, you could enhance masterwork armor and shield from nonmagical to +2 each and still have 2000 gp left to spend.  After a certain point, it becomes very very feasible mathematically to hold off on +1 hit/damage versus gaining several points of AC.

2.) That's a gross overgeneralization and depends a lot on DM.  I've seen high AC matter in a lot of games, and most opponents in the campaigns I've played both attacked AC regularly and had an attack bonus neither too large or too small to marginalize the difference between a PC with mediocre AC and one with high AC.




Dandu said:


> Power Attack.




Cute.

Like I said, you can pick that up when you get the shield animated just as easily.  I thought you were actually using some sort of feat chain with it.  And Divine Power isn't even available until level 7.  Until then, you don't really have the BAB or attack bonus to get much benefit from power attack anyway.


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## Dandu (Feb 18, 2010)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> At higher levels, good AC protects you from iterative attacks.  And prevents some crazy melee cleric or what have you from unloading on you with full power attack.



Doesn't really protect you from the crazy melee cleric casting Blasphemy and making your wet your pants.

You also didn't address the statement I made, which was "AB scales much more quickly than your ability to have AC, unless you  focus heavily on it."




> 1.) Armor bonuses cost half as much as weapon bonuses.  For the price of upgrading a +2 weapon to a +3 weapon, you could enhance masterwork armor and shield from nonmagical to +2 each and still have 2000 gp left to spend.  After a certain point, it becomes very very feasible mathematically to hold off on +1 hit/damage versus gaining several points of AC.



And is it enough of a boost to justify the expense?




> 2.) That's a gross overgeneralization and depends a lot on DM.



What does high AC do against the following:
Dragons
Shadows
Solars
Balors 
Pit Fiends
Illithids
Liches
Hydras
Answer: It protects you from their melee attacks. Unfortunately, said monsters have means of attacking you that bypasses your AC.

That monsters will have ways of bypassing your AC is not an overgeneralization.


> Like I said, you can pick that up when you get the shield animated just as easily.



Not happening at the lower levels though.



> And Divine Power isn't even available until level 7.  Until then, you don't really have the BAB or attack bonus to get much benefit from power attack anyway.



Divine Favor, Prayer, and other spells I've probably forgotten will be able to boost your AB.


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