# Coolest, most vile, and stupidest villians of all time.



## Cyberzombie (Feb 21, 2005)

I've asked this question on Nutkinland/Damnation Army before, but I figure some interesting answers can be found here, too.  

Who is the coolest villian you've ever seen in a movie/on TV?  The villian you want to be when you grow up?  For me, it's a tie.  First is Darth Vader from the original Star Wars movies.  You could tell he was a serious bad guy when he first stepped on stage.  He was seriously menacing and seriously cool.  He clinched it when he strangled the various upstart generals.  

Coming in just as strong is Hans Grueber from Die Hard.  Cool, suave, sophisticated, and with a brilliant plan that would have worked if it wasn't for those darn kids!  Er, Bruce Willis.  I've probably watched this movie more times than any other movie, and it's all for Alan Rictman's performance.

Who is the most vile villian you've ever seen in a movie/on TV?  The villian you want to personally shoot in the head for being so utterly horrid and evil.  For me, it's the Fairy Godmother from Shreck 2.  I have a 2 year old son, so I've seen the movie a lot.  I hate her more each and every time I watch it.  Horrid woman.  Honourable mention goes to Buffalo Bill from Silence of the Lambs.  Sure, he's worse, but I've seen Shreck 2 more.

Who is the stupidest villian you've ever seen in a movie/on TV?  Played by an actor you want to slap upside the head for doing such a horrid job.  My winner is Darth Maul from Star Wars I.  Gah!  Okay, so that one is really Lucas' fault: you don't give major villian roles to the stunt coordinator.  He wasn't an actor.  But he was just *pathetic*.  Gargamel from the Smurfs was more evil.  Dishonorable mention goes to Jeremy Irons.  You know why.  

So how 'bout y'all?  Who are your cool, vile, and stupid villians of all time?


----------



## devilish (Feb 21, 2005)

I had posed the vile villain question here.  

And I agree on Darth Maul -- such potential!


----------



## The Serge (Feb 21, 2005)

*Coolest villain:* Darth Vader at first, with Hannibal Lecter a close second.  Vader had everything, from a cool physical appearance to his voice to his breathing to a great background.  Also, there's not a single villain with a theme as memorable or as appropriate as Vader's; "The Imperial March" is a fantastic representation of the character.

Hannibal Lecter, whether from the novels or from the film adaptations, is another great villain with an interesting background; he also has this near supernatural aspect to his nature (the sixth finger elements in the books harken to that, although it's not captured at all in the movies).

Keyser Soze was another great villain.  The villain in the shadows that manipulated dozens of people around the world just so he could get in and kill the one man who could ID betray him just before disappearing into obscurity.

*Vilest Villain:*  The Joker.  Of all villains in comics, I don't think there's a single villain as reprehensible as The Joker.  Everything's a meaningless joke to him and he gets off by harming and killing people.  From his torture of Barbara and James Gordon to the murders of Robin II (Jason Todd) and Sarah Gordon to the multitudes of other calamities he's brought upon the world, The Joker does all of this with a smile on his face and often kills his victims with the very same smile.  And, like a ghoul, he seems immortal, often returning when least expected after is was clear that he fell or blew up to his well deserved end.  Sick.

Another vile villain is the guy from _Seven_ played with relish by Kevin Spacey.  All in the name of "righteousness," that nameless creep murdered seven people in some of the most gruesome ways.  Clearly brilliant, he had none of Lecter's charm in his mania, making him all the more repellent. 

The Emperor.  This sick bastard.  Aside from ruling the galaxy, all this disgusting jerk wants is to bring ruin to the lives and souls of the pure.  His pursuit of both Anakin and Luke Skywalker is nothing short of satanic and perverse.  And as soon as one became a liability or as soon as he saw something better, so long to the old, hello the new.  I hated The Emperor.

In many ways, the vilest villains tend to be the best...  Frankly, The Joker has a place with the coolest and vilest, so I think he's the all around best villain in popular culture.

Stupidest Villain...  Wow... That's a tough one.  I can't think of one off the top of my head.


----------



## Klaus (Feb 21, 2005)

I have to agree with The Serge there.

Coolest: Darth Vader

Vilest: Joker, John Doe (Se7en)

Stupidest: Scrappy Doo in the first Scooby Doo movie... I mean, really...


----------



## Cyberzombie (Feb 21, 2005)

Serge: hard to argue with your choices.  I always forget Keyser Soze.  Don't know why; that's one of my all-time favourite movies.


----------



## Brakkart (Feb 22, 2005)

Coolest Villain: Dracula (Christopher Lee or Gary Oldman, I don't rate Lugosi or Roxburgh)

Vilest Villain: King Edward the Longshanks [Braveheart] (Not only does he kill his sons lover, lust after his daughter in law, and have his archers open fire on his own troops. But from history this is the bastard who conquered Wales, my homeland, 900 years ago. It remains a subject state of the english crown to this day)

Stupidest Villain: President Scroob [Spaceballs]


----------



## Desdichado (Feb 23, 2005)

Wow, as soon as I pick someone, I'm sure someone better will come to mind.  Still, here goes:

Coolest:  I'll give a nod also to Darth Vader, but in the interest of adding something more to the thread, I'll shout out to The Lady from the _Black Company_ books.  Like Darth, she seemd pure evil until you got to know her, but knowing that she had still a spark of decency only made her more interesting.

Vilest:  I'm drawing a bit of a blank here.  I think the Joker is a good choice, especially when you factor in stuff like his _Dark Knight Returns_ performance as interpreted by Frank Miller.  The villain from _Saw_ was pretty perverse too.  Sad thing is, I can think of real life historical figures that blow them both away for vileness.

Stupidest:  Gargamel!  Hah!  I think a villain that is supposed to be cool and vile but is really just stupid (usually due to author incompetency) blows away anyone who's supposed to be silly to begin with.  What's his name from _The Sword of Truth_ comes to mind; whatever the BBEG in that book was named.  Of course, since that book's up there as a strong contender for "st00pidest book evar" it's not a surprise that the main antagonist is up there for the "st00pidest villain evar" prize as well.


----------



## Pants (Feb 23, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> What's his name from _The Sword of Truth_ comes to mind; whatever the BBEG in that book was named.  Of course, since that book's up there as a strong contender for "st00pidest book evar" it's not a surprise that the main antagonist is up there for the "st00pidest villain evar" prize as well.



Jagang or Darken Rahl... Why do I remember this?  It's been burned into my poor, poor brain...   

Coolest: Darth Vader, Agent Smith 
Vilest: Mr Croup and Mr Vandemar (from Neverwhere), the Crippled God (from the Malazan Series), John Doe (from Seven), Walder Frey (from aSoIaF)
Stupidest: Too many too name.  All the Forsaken (from WoT), all of David Edding's villains


----------



## Qlippoth (Feb 23, 2005)

Coolest: Magneto (_X-Men 2_). Scenery-chewing goodness from Ian McKellen;
Most vile: Hannibal Lecter (_The Silence of the Lambs_). Police-officer-skinningness from Anthony Hopkins; &
Stupidest: Lots of rivals for this one, but Newt Gunray of the _Star Wars_ prequel nonsense takes the cake. Costume from the 70's, accent from the 30's. George Lucas, I'm looking at you...


----------



## Dark Jezter (Feb 23, 2005)

*Coolest:*  Darth Vader from Star Wars.  Thulsa Doom from Conan the Barbarian.

*Most Vile:*  John Doe from Se7en.

*Stupidest:*  Ernst Blofeld from the old 007 movies.  This man _repeatedly_ put James Bond in easily-escapable, slow-moving death traps after capturing him.  If Blofeld knew how to just shoot Bond in the head, he would have taken over the world at least 3 or 4 times.


----------



## Starman (Feb 23, 2005)

I think Khan from Star Trek II definitely ranks as one of the coolest villains ever.

Starman


----------



## RangerWickett (Feb 23, 2005)

*raises fists, falls to knees, and looks to the sky with rage*

KHAN!!!


----------



## KenM (Feb 23, 2005)

Coolest and most vile IMO: Mr. Morden from Babylon 5.  He just sets things in motion, never dirting his hands himself.


----------



## MonsterMash (Feb 23, 2005)

*Coolest:* Actually tough - I thought of Darth Vader, Dracula, Fu Manchu, but I think Keyser Sose takes the crown for subtelty.

*Most Vile:* Tricky, but John Doe from se7en probably takes it.

*Stupidest:* Blofeld does seem to have a weakness for always giving Bond time to escape while coming out with endless exposition, so I think I can award this to him. Honourable mentions for all other Bond villans and


----------



## Wormwood (Feb 23, 2005)

_Cool: _*Thulsa Doom *is cooler than Darth Vader, because he's a half-snake, half-pimp love machine. Vader, for all his supposed power, is stuck with the ol' Force Grip, if you know what I mean.

_Vile: _*Blake, *Glengarry Glen Ross. "Put the coffee down! Coffee is for closers". I get shrinkage whenever he's on---flashbacks of a sales job I had in college. The horror. The horror. _

Stupid: _*The Architect, *The Matrix Retarded. Actually, I' like to renominate him as the _vilest_, because he sucked so hard that he not only made me hate Reloaded---but he was able to reach through time and space and make me retroactively hate the original Matrix. Nice work, jackass.


----------



## Jack Daniel (Feb 23, 2005)

Coolest: It's hard to decide between Darth Vader and Kahn. Darth has the mask and the scary breath, but now we know that he was once cute and precocious, which either makes him far less cool over all, or far more badass because he went from "hit the nose!" and "it's working, it's working!" to "Apology accepted, Captain Needa." So, yeah, Darth Vader.







Vilest: Whichever it is, it's got to come from _Farscape,_ because those bad guys just made you cringe whenever they were on the screen. It's hard to choose between Scorpius (killed 10,000 slaves on the off-chance that he might find the one he could use to ransom for Crichton's galaxy-destroying wormhole kowledge), Grayza (two words: heppel oil), or Furlow (apart from being just plain gross, she was willing to _sell_ galaxy-destroying wormhole tech to the highest bidders).












Stupidest: Just look to the Batman movies post-Keaton. Carrey's Riddler, Arney's Freeze, & Uma's Ivy were all just... stupid. But, obviously, Bane takes the taco.


----------



## DMH (Feb 23, 2005)

Coolest- The Drej from Titan AE and Tetsuo from Akira

Vilest- toss up between Linana (sp?) and Nirrti from SG-1. Both are willing to kill of whole populations to futher their genetics projects. This is also why I think the aboleth are the coolest D&D creature.

Dumbest- George Lucas? Seriously Captain Hook from Hook.


----------



## fett527 (Feb 23, 2005)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *raises fists, falls to knees, and looks to the sky with rage*
> 
> KHAN!!!





_KHAAAN!!!!_

It needs a couple more "A"s.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Feb 23, 2005)

Coolest: Ming the Merciless 
Vilest: The Joker but Dr. Phibes was bad
Stupidest: There are many


----------



## Desdichado (Feb 23, 2005)

I assume that when people refer to the Joker as the vilest villain, they're not meaning the Joker as played by Cesar Romero on the old 1969 Batman TV show...


----------



## BryonD (Feb 23, 2005)

Cyberzombie said:
			
		

> I always forget Keyser Soze.  Don't know why




The greatest trick the devil ever pulled.....


----------



## The Serge (Feb 23, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I assume that when people refer to the Joker as the vilest villain, they're not meaning the Joker as played by Cesar Romero on the old 1969 Batman TV show...



No, I mean The Joker from the animated series (particularly from _Batman Beyond: Return of The Joker_ and _World's Finest_) and from the comics (particularly _The Killing Joke, A Death in the Family,_ and _The Dark Knight Returns_).  The Joker from the campy show doesn't count (although he _did_ have a great laugh).  While The Joker from _Batman: The Movie_ was pretty interesting, he wasn't especially vile (although littering the city with cash just so he can get thousands of citizens all in one place to murder them is pretty sinister).


----------



## Darthjaye (Feb 23, 2005)

*Coolest Villian*   Hmm. I want to say that Vin Diesel's character from Pitch Black (and only Pitch Black) was a cool villian, but then he goes and redeems himself by trying to be a good guy.  I'm a comic book fan so maybe Mystique from X-Men for coolest.

*Vilest* I would have to vote for Gary Oldman in any number of performances he's given, but for example we'll lead with his character from The Professional who's a drug running/ using government agent who has Mathilda's faminly (including almost all the kids) whacked because the guy shorted him on his drugs)

*Stupedist* I would say there's way too many from any number of failed movies for me to really pick out one from any other.  Of course, you could mean stupid haha in which cause there's still quite a few but Dr. Evil kinda tops my list in this area.  Maybe Lo Pan from Big Trouble in Little China though.  Does Monarch from Venture Brothers count?  If so him for stupid/funniest.


----------



## Dagger75 (Feb 23, 2005)

Coolest: Vader,  He gets my vote

Vilest: Niska, the old guy from Firefly.  He seemed like and unpleasant person.

Stupidest: Everybody from WoT.  They are all stupid.  And thanks for dredging up the Sword of Truth. I hadn't thought of that garbage in years


----------



## Mercule (Feb 23, 2005)

_Cool_:  I'm going with Vader, for the reasons listed above.  I've got a tickle at the back of my brain that says I'm forgetting someone, though.

_Vile_:  Guess I've got to go with John Doe (Se7en), too.



			
				Wormwood said:
			
		

> _Stupid: _*The Architect, *The Matrix Retarded. Actually, I' like to renominate him as the _vilest_, because he sucked so hard that he not only made me hate Reloaded---but he was able to reach through time and space and make me retroactively hate the original Matrix. Nice work, jackass.




Amen!  I'm also in awe of how a sequel can suck so bad as to actually denigrate the original.


----------



## johnsemlak (Feb 23, 2005)

I'll throw in one more movie villian, though I don't necessarily rank it above previously mentioned ones like Darth Vader or Hannibal Lector.

Mola Ram, played by the Indian actor Amrish Puri, considered one of the best 'villain' actors ever.


----------



## Dagger75 (Feb 23, 2005)

Side note: Every time I see John Doe in this thread I think to the guy on the TV show of the same name.  I'm like how can a guy who knows everything and helps people be a bad guy?


----------



## Cyberzombie (Feb 23, 2005)

I think all the posts since I've last posted bring up good ones.  Ones that especially caught my eye:

Best: KHAAAAAAANNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Vilest: John Doe from Se7en.  I hadn't heard anything about the movie before I saw it; I just knew Brad Pitt and Morgan Freeman were playing cops, and that *seemed* to be enough info.  And I saw it on the first date with the lady who is now my wife.  BEFORE we went out to eat.  Big mistake!  We went out and had hamburgers, but only after about 5 hours, when hunger finally won out.  

Stupidest: Ahnold as "Mr. Freeze".  Gah.  And by stupid, I don't mean stupid funny.  I mean stupid stupid.


----------



## Wereserpent (Feb 23, 2005)

Coolest: Albert Wesker from Resident Evil Code Veronica
Vilest: His Divine Shadow from Lexx
Stupidest: Dont know


----------



## Ahnehnois (Feb 24, 2005)

Best: Darth Vader

Vilest: Gul Dukat from DS9. Every time you thought he might not be the vilest creature in the galaxy, he'd do something even worse...

Stupidest: "God" from ST V. Man that didn't work.


----------



## Particle_Man (Feb 24, 2005)

Coolest: Vader is up there, so is the Joker, and I will also add Bester from B-5.

I can't think of others for the others.


----------



## Tauric (Feb 24, 2005)

Coolest:  Lionel Luther, Gul Dukat, Scorpius, Keyzer Soze.  All suave and subtle.  You never know where you truly stand with these guys.

Vilest:  Pretty much the same guys.

Stupidest (as in I want to slap the actor):  The Batman villians post-Keaton, especially Two-face.


----------



## fett527 (Feb 24, 2005)

Cyberzombie said:
			
		

> I think all the posts since I've last posted bring up good ones.  Ones that especially caught my eye:
> 
> Best: KHAAAAAAANNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...




I was wondering if anyone actually clicked on the link.


----------



## Darthjaye (Feb 24, 2005)

Ahnehnois said:
			
		

> Best: Darth Vader
> 
> Vilest: Gul Dukat from DS9. Every time you thought he might not be the vilest creature in the galaxy, he'd do something even worse...
> 
> Stupidest: "God" from ST V. Man that didn't work.





Yeah, what was it with the odd numbered Star Trek movies?  Why did they all suck worse than the even numbered ones?  I realized that trend a few years ago and it keeps seeming to be so.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Feb 24, 2005)

Coolest: Vader, though General Grievous is defeintely up there(and that's only from reading the pre-Episode III novel)

Vilest: Joker. But then again, he's cool, too.

Stupidest: Another vote for God in Star Trek V.


----------



## Testament (Feb 24, 2005)

Coolest:  Hannibal Lecter.  Such a likeable, sophisticated and intelligent monster.  Anthiny Hopkins was on camera for a mere 20 minutes in Silence.  Feels like a lot more, doesn't it?

Honourable mention to Griffith from the anime series Beserk.  If you haven't seen it, then do so; the White Hawk has such incredible charisma, such noble dreams and ideas.  Watching these dreams turn to a cold lust for power and his nobility turn to callousness is soooo hypnotic.

Vilest:  The Joker.  No matter how many times I read "Dark Knight Returns", "The Killing Joke", "Hush", "A Death In The Family" or "No Man's Land", he always makes my skin crawl, something almost no other villain can do.  A sociopath taken to sickening extremes, mass murder and torture are just jokes to him.  Honestly, can anyone ever forget what he's done to the Gordons?

Honourable mentions to John Doe from Se7en and Dino Velvet from 8MM (that film left me physically ill).  Velvet is even more horrific, since he has no delusions to hide behind, he does it because he gets rich, and gets his rocks off at the same time.

Stupidest:  Any Joel Schumacer Bat-Villain.  I hate him like poison for what he did to my favourite comic franchise.


----------



## Endur (Feb 24, 2005)

Coolest: I agree with the list up above.  I might toss up someone from Game of Thrones, but I can't figure out who's a villain and who's not in that series ... ok Petyr is a villain.

Vilest: ditto.

Stupidest: What the Batman movies did to Bane was sad.  errr, how about the Stormtroopers?  I mean these guys have to know the rebels are going to blast them to smithereens.  And if they don't get blasted, they'll likely be killed by Vader & co.


----------



## Wormwood (Feb 24, 2005)

Testament said:
			
		

> Stupidest: Any Joel Schumacer Bat-Villain. I hate him like poison for what he did to my favourite comic franchise.




Joel [size=-1]Schumacher hurt Batman more than any villain could. Proving that incompetence trumps evil.
[/size]


----------



## Klaus (Feb 24, 2005)

New Stupidest Villain: Joel Schumacher!


----------



## Aesmael (Feb 24, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Coolest: Vader,  He gets my vote



I loved Niska! He reminds me of my course coordinator.

And who is this Keysor Soze I hear so much about? (I.e. from what, don't want any further description of what he does/did)

*Coolest:* Roose Bolton is just about my favourite villain ever. Honourable mention to the usual suspects; Darth Vader, Khan, Magneto.

*Vilest:* The only one springing to mind is actually a character in a sketch show, Andy of Little Britain. Ask later if you want reasons in spoiler tags, my first attempt just got et.

*Stupidest:* Any who fail to kill or otherwise neutralise their enemies without a _very_ good reason. Any who act in a way counterproductive to their own interests or otherwise rely on authority when it would be ludicrous to expect obedience - Randyll Tarly & Cersei Lannister, for example.

Would like to try adding a new category, before I visit the linked villain thread (Looking for that was on tonight's agenda, thanks!): Most sympathetic villain. The villain you just felt sorry for or wished it could have turned out differently.

My nomination would be Griffith from Berserk, I guess.

Just realised that many of my nominations are from books (the same books, even). Oh well, it was hard enough to come up with some of those. I won't change it unless inspiration strikes.


----------



## Psychic Warrior (Feb 24, 2005)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> Stupid: [/i]*The Architect, *The Matrix Retarded. Actually, I' like to renominate him as the _vilest_, because he sucked so hard that he not only made me hate Reloaded---but he was able to reach through time and space and make me retroactively hate the original Matrix. Nice work, jackass.




 

_Coolest_ - Hans Grueber.  The man oozes charm and evil in equal quantities. 

_Vilest_ - Mr Morden from Babylon 5.  I hated this guy sooo much.  I danced for joy when Vir got his fondest desire 

_Stupidest_ - while the Architect is pretty stupid he would actually be the laziest villian (at least lazy from a writing stand point) .  Stupid would probably go to Sybok, Spock's brother (?!) from Star Trek V.  This guy had people come over to his side after they 'promised' they believed him.  Then everyone broke from his control spontaneously.  That and I don't believe he and Spock were related.


----------



## mojo1701 (Feb 24, 2005)

Aesmael said:
			
		

> And who is this Keysor Soze I hear so much about? (I.e. from what, don't want any further description of what he does/did)




It's funny that you should say this:



> Honourable mention to the usual suspects




Since that's the movie which Keyser Soze is in: "The Usual Suspects."


----------



## Aesmael (Feb 24, 2005)

Oh, that's beautiful. And I don't have to add anything to my to-see list, "The Usual Suspects" being on it already.


----------



## Desdichado (Feb 24, 2005)

Psychic Warrior said:
			
		

> _Coolest_ - Hans Grubber.  The man oozes charm and evil in equal quantities.



Evil man; nemesis of garden pest control specialists all over the world.  But cool?!   :\ 

Or did you mean Hans Grueber?


----------



## Edgewood (Feb 24, 2005)

*Coolest:* Vader in ESB. He was at his best in that movie.
*Vilest:*  The Borg (ST:FC)
*Most Frightening:* Ringwraiths (LOTR)
*Honorable Mention:* Dr Evil (Austin Powers), The One Ring (LOTR), Sauron (LOTR), Lex Luthor (Superman I & II), General Zod (Superman II), Aliens (Aliens)
*Most Stupid:* Jason (Friday XIII part 1 to 2,356)

I have others but I think these are the ones that I wanted to get out there. I could have put the shark from Jaws, but it wasn't evil...it was just a shark.


----------



## kirinke (Feb 24, 2005)

Freddy Krueger: 
I'd have to say vile on this, I mean the guy concentrates on killing kids in very violent and unpleasant ways and he himself can't be killed.

Jabberwocky from American Mcgee's Alice (video game): 
vile, simply from the way he taunts Alice.

The cigerete smoking man from X-files.
Vile/Evil. Simply because he sold out humanity to save his own skin and for tormenting Mulder.


----------



## mojo1701 (Feb 24, 2005)

kirinke said:
			
		

> The cigerete smoking man from X-files.
> Vile/Evil. Simply because he sold out humanity to save his own skin and for tormenting Mulder.




And for smoking so many cigarettes.


----------



## Starman (Feb 25, 2005)

Psychic Warrior said:
			
		

> _Stupidest_ - while the Architect is pretty stupid he would actually be the laziest villian (at least lazy from a writing stand point) .  Stupid would probably go to Savok, Spock's brother (?!) from Star Trek V.  This guy had people come over to his side after they 'promised' they believed him.  Then everyone broke from his control spontaneously.  That and I don't believe he and Spock were related.




*Geek hat on*

Savaak was the half-Romulan, half-Vulcan played by Kirstie Alley and Robin Curtis in Star Trek II and III. 

_Sybok_ was Spock's half-brother. And, yes, he was stupid. Very.

Starman (geek hat always on)


----------



## Psychic Warrior (Feb 25, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> *Geek hat on*
> 
> Savaak was the half-Romulan, half-Vulcan played by Kirstie Alley and Robin Curtis in Star Trek II and III.
> 
> ...




Savaak, Sybok, Spoculot, whatever.   They were all stupid.

What is with Star Trek and Vulcan names beginning with 'S' or ending in 'ok'?  See there's the next Vulcan character - Sok.


----------



## Desdichado (Feb 25, 2005)

Psychic Warrior said:
			
		

> get two stinking typos and everyone's a critic



Ah, PW, you take all the fun out of a good joke.

Of course, most likely, that wasn't a good joke.  It seemed funny at the time, though.


----------



## mojo1701 (Feb 25, 2005)

Psychic Warrior said:
			
		

> What is with Star Trek and Vulcan names beginning with 'S' or ending in 'ok'?  See there's the next Vulcan character - Sok.




That was the original idea for name schemes among Vulcans, that usually the male starts with an 'S' and ends with a 'k' (Spock, Sarek, Sybok, Surak, etc.)  and a female would always start with a 'T'', such as T'Pol, T'Pau, T'Pring, T'Les, etc. Of course, this isn't as much in practice (but the T' is quite popular, seeing as it's only females that utilize it).


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 25, 2005)

The coolest and also most sympathic for me is Thrawn, from Timothy Zahn's Star Wars books. 



Spoiler



I really hated seeing (or: reading) him die...



For the other categories (or honorable mentions) I have nothing to add, except maybe Sheriff Buck in American Gothic for vilest ... Though I am not really sure that he can beat someone like Hannibal.


----------



## PhoenixDarkDirk (Feb 25, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Side note: Every time I see John Doe in this thread I think to the guy on the TV show of the same name.  I'm like how can a guy who knows everything and helps people be a bad guy?




I briefly had a similar problem until I saw the source.  I rather liked that show.

I thought of some good candidates for these positions.

A cool villain is Harrison from Orson Scott Card's _Tales of Alvin Maker_ series.  This guy gets a curse requiring him to tell a new person every day about his instigation of a massacre, and then he manages to get elected president.  That takes some people skills.

One who's quite vile is Volrath from _Magic: The Gathering_.  He took as a prisoner a pacifist named Karn who is roughly an animated statue.  Karn is then placed in a room crowded with several of Volrath's lackeys, and the floor shifts wildly to the effect that Karn's weight crushes some of them.

I can't think of a good stupid villain.


----------



## Rackhir (Feb 25, 2005)

Coolest - Londo Mollari. Best actor/character in B5, does everything out of the best of intentions, with the most horrifying of results. Knows and understands the horror of what he has brought about, but still can't change the outcome. Finally surrenders himself to become a monster in order to save his people, knowing it means ruling as a merciless despot and his death, but that it is the only hope for his people. 

"I see millions of people crying out your name" - Elric the Technomage.
"My followers?" - Londo
"No, your victims" - Elric the Technomage.

Vader is of course a classic. Any villian who can make you say, "Man I kinda want to be him even though he's a badguy." is a classic. 

Stupidest - The Ferengi. They were the first "villians" introduced in TNG and were supposed to be all evil and dangerous etc... I think it says a lot about the mentality of the TNG people that their first BBEGs were essentially merchants/capitalists. 

             - The Borg. They reminded me of refugees from the old live action SF kids show "Captain Power and the Soldiers of the Future". All these wires and tubes and such poking out of them. You should have been able to cripple them with a set of wire cutters. They were slow stupid and illogical. They managed to create a high tech zombie basically that lacked any sense of menace. 

Have to think for a while on vilest. Nobody truly vile springs immediately to mind.


----------



## mojo1701 (Feb 25, 2005)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> All these wires and tubes and such poking out of them. You should have been able to cripple them with a set of wire cutters. They were slow stupid and illogical. They managed to create a high tech zombie basically that lacked any sense of menace.




It never was that they're so slow that they can't get you, but they're so strong that they don't need to chase you (you can't run, you can't hide). Also, the tube thing was removed later.


----------



## Rackhir (Feb 25, 2005)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> It never was that they're so slow that they can't get you, but they're so strong that they don't need to chase you (you can't run, you can't hide). Also, the tube thing was removed later.




In one of the later "Hu" episodes where some borg were afflicted with individuality, they were moving and acting at normal human speed. How ever strong you may be it is still stupid to lumber about like an elderly arthritic man, if you can act faster.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Feb 25, 2005)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> They reminded me of refugees from the old live action SF kids show "Captain Power and the Soldiers of the Future".




Someone else remembers this! I used to love that show...had a couple old VHS tapes. Wonder where they went.


----------



## Evilhalfling (Feb 25, 2005)

Coolest : the mayor. "I just want to be a big snake'" 

Vile:  john doe is hard to beat, the most horri-fyin/ble movie.  and one I will never see again. 

Stupied:  Skeltor? MumRah ? - Scrappy doo. definatly scrappy.


----------



## Mallus (Feb 25, 2005)

Rackhir, I beg to differ...



			
				Rackhir said:
			
		

> Coolest - Londo Mollari.



No argument that Londo/Peter Jurasik is the best character/actor on the show. But is he really accurately described as a _villian_? I think of him as a protagonist, not antagonist.


> Stupidest - The Ferengi.



They don't work as villians. But once the writers found a way to utilize them, they're a great addition to the canon. Of course, it took the writers until DS9, when they began looking for other things to do with non-Federation cultures aside from demonizing/patronizing them 
(TNG was great at that, "Oh look, the Klingons need help governing themselves again. What bother!").


> - The Borg...snip...They managed to create a high tech zombie basically that lacked any sense of menace.



I think the Borg had plenty of menace up through "Best of Both Worlds". You didn't find the soulless machine voice issuing out of a viewscreen full of infinite-seeming girders menacing? Or first time a Borg drone manifested a force shield; the mindless inevitability of their non-tactics was a sight to behold ... for awhile (at least the Borg didn't look like rabid Erector sets like SG1's Replicators...)

The problem is the Borg became as ubiquitous as a Paris Hilton sex tape. And nowhere near as scary.


----------



## Rackhir (Feb 25, 2005)

Mallus said:
			
		

> Rackhir, I beg to differ...
> 
> 
> No argument that Londo/Peter Jurasik is the best character/actor on the show. But is he really accurately described as a _villian_? I think of him as a protagonist, not antagonist.




Well I know from past threads that you and I simply don't see eye to eye on these sort of things. Being a protagonist or antagonist is fairly meaninless in a show like B5 with the same characters serving primary, secondary and supporting roles and completely irrelevant to if Londo is a villian or not. Since terms those simply refer to a story's focus on a character. Generally the hero is the protagonist and the villian the antagonist, but there is nothing about the definitions of the words that mandates it be that way.

He is not a traditional villian in the Darth Vader sense certainly. He is not doing evil simply because it IS evil like so many villians seem to. None of the "Bad Guys" in B5 really were, except perhaps the Drahk, but they were more for Crusade. B5 made you understand Londo, you knew he wasn't innately a bad person. However that didn't stop him from doing things with quite evil outcomes.

As to why he was a villian, well lets see, he made a deal with the shadows, knowing full well and was warned that someone offering what they were, couldn't be up to anything good. He used that bargain to enable the Centari to destroy and invade the Narn homeworld, reducing them ONCE MORE to  slaves of the Centari. He clearly didn't like many of the policies that were being carried out, but he not only went along with them, he supported them to the best of his ability in most situations.

He was essentially someone who had joined the Nazi Party, who perhaps wasn't fond of Hitler and his racisim, but none the less carried out his orders. Someone who believed in Germany and wanted it to be great again and saw Hitler and the Nazis as the best way to accomplish that. You can be a nice guy who loves his family, children and puppies yet who perpetrates the most monsterous acts concievable. 




			
				Mallus said:
			
		

> I think the Borg had plenty of menace up through "Best of Both Worlds". You didn't find the soulless machine voice issuing out of a viewscreen full of infinite-seeming girders menacing? Or first time a Borg drone manifested a force shield; the mindless inevitability of their non-tactics was a sight to behold ... for awhile (at least the Borg didn't look like rabid Erector sets like SG1's Replicators...)
> 
> The problem is the Borg became as ubiquitous as a Paris Hilton sex tape. And nowhere near as scary.




No I never found the borg menacing, scary or intimidating. Their idiotic appearence, sluggish response and essential invulnerability, put me more in mind of Jason in Friday the 13th CCXXII(an exercise in killing teenagers/redshirts by an invincible character), than anything to be afraid of. Rather than think of some way to actually make them scary or intimidating, like a poor DM with a favored NPC, they simply made the borg essentially invulnerable, railroading them to the pre-plotted conclusion where the Plot-tium bombs would finally defeat them. 

Basically if the Borg were ever used with a sensible approach to how much power they were shown to have, they would have vaporized the enterprise in a second and simply brushed aside anything else thrown at them. Like the aformentioned NPC shrugging off attacks from the PCs. So the Borg were made stupid. That's not scary.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Feb 25, 2005)

Psychic Warrior said:
			
		

> Savaak, Sybok, Spoculot, whatever.   They were all stupid.
> 
> What is with Star Trek and Vulcan names beginning with 'S' or ending in 'ok'?  See there's the next Vulcan character - Sok.




In the book _The Making of Star Trek_ the first and last letter was for family names, I don't think they kept to that, this caused a lot of rumors in the first movie that the female vulcan was Spock's .


----------



## Cyberzombie (Feb 25, 2005)

Lando is a great villian.  My gaming group is forcing me to watch Babylon 5 all the way through (I say forcing because Season 1, while important to the story, is utter garbage for the most part).  We're about halfway into Season 3.  He is a wonderful, wonderful villian.

And I'll second the call of the Ferengi and Borg (I always think Swedish Chef when I see that name!) as stupid villians.  And especially Seven of Wet Dreams...


----------



## Mallus (Feb 26, 2005)

Londo Mollari isn't a villian. He's the very definition of a tragic hero. He tries to revive his --waning-- civilization, his hubris blinds him to the obvious wrongness of the path he follows, yet by the end he makes a grand sacrifice... and does what he can to make amends for his races most obvious sin, the mistreatment of the Narn.

Doing bad things doesn't make a character the villian. Look at Oedipus...


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Feb 26, 2005)

Cyberzombie said:
			
		

> Lando is a great villian.




Lando a villain?! Didn't you listen to what he said? He had no choice! And there was still a chance to save Han!


----------



## Eosin the Red (Feb 26, 2005)

I think Londo was a great tragic villain.  He did try to redeem himself but managed to only lessen depths of his folly. 

Coolest: There are some darn fine ones listed so I will add Miracleman (maybe Mr Miracle) (comics).  Basically a Shazam clone - the scene that cements him into villain infamy occurs when he is fighting his nemisis and is getting beat silly - he picks up a bus and smashes it into the villain. Internal monologe was something like "The bus is empty. I keep telling myself the bus was empty."

Vilest: Hard to beat John Doe. Maybe Cerci Lannister.

Stupid: I have children, that means the Disney Channel. Need I say more?


----------



## Plane Sailing (Feb 26, 2005)

For the moment I'll just go with the vilest villain.

Judge Frollo, from Disney's "Hunchback of Notre Dame". This murderous, self-righteous tyrant rides down a young gypsy woman, killing her on the steps of Notre Dame, finds that the "parcel" she was carrying was the infant quasimodo and is going to drop the baby in the well and kill it just because it is ugly...

stopped from that by the only moral imperative he ever suffered from, he raises quasimodo to despise himself, he lusts after esmerelda and if she won't bed him he'll burn her as a witch.

I was surprised to see such a monster of depravity portrayed in a disney film of all places, but he gets my vote as vilest villain I've seen.


----------



## Villano (Feb 27, 2005)

-Coolest-

Darth Vader, of course.  I'll add Boba Fett.  You have to be pretty cool to build up such a following with so little screen time.

Scaramanga from The Man With The Golden Gun.  I can't explain it, I just love the guy.  Maybe it's Christopher Lee. 

Ghidrah, the Three-Headed Monster (aka King Ghidorah).  That's the classic version, not the wimpy ones from the remakes.  Ghidrah is the biggest, baddest monster in the universe.  Even Godzilla needs help to take him down.

Jason from the Friday The 13th films.  Yeah, technically he's stupid.  But I've got to give him credit on behalf off all the unstoppable monsters out there.   

-Most Vile-

I agree with John Doe from Seven.  

Leatherface from Texas Chainsaw Massacre.  The guy's a cannibal, wears human skin, and sits on furniture made of their bones!  

Tanakura, the ronin from Zatoichi, The Fugitive.  I'm a big fan of the blind swordsman movies, and Tanakura is the best villain in the series.  He's a scruffy pig who beats his wife and drinks too much, but is great with a sword.  As it turns out, better than Zatoichi.

Why is he so vile?  First, it turns out he's now married to, Tane, the woman Zatoichi loves (from the first movie).  He kills her when she touches his sword and, as he lay dying from his fight with Zatoichi, he lies and tells Ichi that Tane is the one who set up the ambush.  He had no redeeming qualities whatsoever.    

-Stupidest-

Tuco (Eli Wallach) from The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly.  If he had any brains, he's be dangerous.   

Any number of henchmen in stealth action games.  Take the guys from Metal Gear Solid 2.  You knock them unconscious and stuff them in a locker and, when they wake up, the go back to their patrols like nothing happened.  

I'm playing Manhunt right now, and these guys are morons.  As long as you are in the shadows, they can't see you.    It doesn't matter that you may be standing in a tiny shadow in the middle of an open area, you're invisible to them.   And none of them will ever go into the shadows.  They'll stand right at the edge, two inches in front of you, and they can't see you.

And I'll second the Ferengi.  How could anyone have thought that they'd be the next Klingons?  They did become great characters when DS9 rolled around.


----------



## wiseone (Mar 2, 2005)

Coolest Villan has to be Gogo Yubari from Kill Bill Vol 1. she's a crazy hot japanese chick! what isn't there to love?

Vilest Villan is deffinatley Dawn Summers from Buffy! Whenever i see her i have this urge to throw the T.V. out of the Window, granted she's not a villan, but any moralistic person can see that she has to die!


----------



## Felix (Mar 2, 2005)

Coolest:

*Villano*, I'm going to have to disagree with you about Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan-Maria Ramirez. 

First, with a name like that, you're automatically cool.

Second, "whoever double-crosses Tuco and leaves him alive, heh heh, he knows nothing of Tuco."

Third, "When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk."

Fourth, that walk through the desert with Clint is one of the meanest ways of killing someone I've seen on the screen. Sure, it didn't work out, but that was one mean hombre to do that to ol Blonde.

Vilest:

Bernardo Gui and Venerable Jorge de Burgos from The Name of the Rose. 

Especially Gui... he knew that he could do anything he wanted, and that anyone who questioned him was to be punished. A wonderful example of how power corrupts people. 

And Venerable Jorge... to think that he would kill his brothers because of his hatred of laughter; "Laughter kills fear, and without fear there can be no faith, because without fear of the Devil there is no more need of God." That's awesome villany!

Stoopidest:

Any villan from a Wesley Snipes movie. Ugh, they are all terrible. With a special nod to the chump from Passenger 57.


----------



## Logan (Mar 2, 2005)

Coolest: Darth Vader.  No need to explian.

Vilest: Sabretooth.  My fondness for Wolverine comics aside,  the man has done things that made my skin crawl.  No redemtion, no remorse, just doing evil, not for evil's sake, but just beacuase he wants to. (And his parent beat him up, chained in the basement like a dog as a child)

Stupidest: Those trade federation guys from the Phantom Menace.  Ugg, they were lame.


----------



## Storm Raven (Mar 2, 2005)

Cyberzombie said:
			
		

> Lando is a great villian.  My gaming group is forcing me to watch Babylon 5 all the way through (I say forcing because Season 1, while important to the story, is utter garbage for the most part).




Season 1 becomes even more vital (and better) in retrospect as you move further on in the series.


----------



## Cyberzombie (Mar 2, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Season 1 becomes even more vital (and better) in retrospect as you move further on in the series.



 No.    I can believe it becomes more vital, but NEVER will I believe it becomes better.  I would dearly love to track down the guy who played the original commander and beat on him for a while.


----------



## Rackhir (Mar 2, 2005)

Cyberzombie said:
			
		

> No.    I can believe it becomes more vital, but NEVER will I believe it becomes better.  I would dearly love to track down the guy who played the original commander and beat on him for a while.




I used to refer to him as "Captain Whitebread", because he was so dull.


----------



## Villano (Mar 2, 2005)

Felix said:
			
		

> Coolest:
> 
> *Villano*, I'm going to have to disagree with you about Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan-Maria Ramirez.




LOL.  I think Tuco's cool.  He's just not the brightest guy.  

EDIT:  I forgot to include Connor from Angel as one of the stupidest.  God, I hate him.  I've never wanted to see a supporting character be killed so badly.  And slowly and horribly, too.


----------



## mojo1701 (Mar 2, 2005)

Logan said:
			
		

> Stupidest: Those trade federation guys from the Phantom Menace.  Ugg, they were lame.




True, but they weren't supposed to be villains; they were weak-willed pawns that were pressured, and folded easily.


----------



## Testament (Mar 3, 2005)

Aesmael said:
			
		

> Would like to try adding a new category, before I visit the linked villain thread (Looking for that was on tonight's agenda, thanks!): Most sympathetic villain. The villain you just felt sorry for or wished it could have turned out differently.
> 
> My nomination would be Griffith from Berserk, I guess.




Ohhh yeah.  Easily the most sympathetic villain I've ever seen.


----------



## Felix (Mar 3, 2005)

Most Sympathetic Villan:

Creon from Sophicles' Antigone. That guy was so sympathetic, there's a fairly good argument that he's actually the hero of the play. Heh.



			
				Villano said:
			
		

> He's just not the brightest guy.



Oh, I thought you were saying "that character was terrible" when you said stupidest. Yeah, nobody ever accused Tuco of being too clever for his own good.


----------



## Jhamin (Mar 4, 2005)

Stupidest: Lord Zedd from Early Seasons of Power Rangers.  Ok, Ok, it was a kids show....but this guy spent many seasons trying to defeat the power rangers.  Then he finally got a bunch of Giant Robots that were more powerful than the Ranger Robots.  So what does he do?  He kidnapps the Ranger's friends & _blackmails the Power Rangers into piloting the more powerful Robots!_

So what did they do?  They used the uber-robots to rescue the hostages.


----------



## Testament (Mar 4, 2005)

Felix said:
			
		

> Most Sympathetic Villan:
> 
> Creon from Sophicles' Antigone. That guy was so sympathetic, there's a fairly good argument that he's actually the hero of the play. Heh.




And it became even more true when Jean Anouilh rewrote the play.


----------



## Tangent Loki (Mar 4, 2005)

I'm not going to bother with the 'colest' villain because I have nothing to add there yet;

the vilest?  The Count of Monte-Christo, should be added, he is the main charcter but he does not behave in a heroic fashion, it's all about vengeance.  he does the worst things he can imagine, now, if he were a 'hero' and held heroic ideals then there are lines that he would not cross, but he does.  

stupid; since we have mention Magic; the gathering books, everyone after yawgmoth qualifies as a 'stupid villain'.  I also agree with the nominations for the brain dead villains who cannot follow the evil overlord list.


----------



## Raloc (Mar 10, 2005)

Well I have one for the "Stupidest" villain:  The devil from the Constantine movie.  Man that character was lame.


----------



## Storm Raven (Mar 10, 2005)

Cyberzombie said:
			
		

> No.    I can believe it becomes more vital, but NEVER will I believe it becomes better.




Once you get through "War Without End" and beyond, Season 1 becomes much better in retrospect, because much of the set-up that was put into that season begins to seriously pay off.


----------

