# Thrown Weapon Seeker with nothing to throw...



## mysticknight232 (Apr 12, 2010)

Does it seem strange to others that the only weapons a Thrown Weapon Seeker build can throw are Daggers and Javelins?  Not to mention all the pretty pictures they give us of Elf Seekers dual-wielding throwing axes and tossing them at enemies.  I find it really hard to justify forcing a class to take a feat just to get a particular thrown weapon.  Thrown weapons don't deal a ton of dmg anyway, so limiting what you can throw just seems very poorly through out by WotC imo.  And i love how the powers allow you to use them in melee or ranged...but you must have a light or heavy thrown weapon.  Seems to me that i'd rather use a better weapon and just go melee with the class in that case.  

I was very excited to build a Thrown Weapon Seeker, but the range and dmg just don't do it any justice.  you'd be stupid to build anything but a traditional longbow/greatbow seeker.  

Anybody have any thoughts on this?  Am i missing something in the CB under thrown weapons or does this build really seem way outclassed by the Vengeful Seeker build?

Thanks and happy hunting!


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## DracoSuave (Apr 12, 2010)

Farbond Spellblade.

And thrown weapon seekers aren't supposed to be long range.  They get IN THERE.

Hense why some of their attacks are melee as well.


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## Obryn (Apr 12, 2010)

Yeah, the Thrown seeker seems a bit less intriguing to me than the Bow seeker.  However, I have noticed that a quick Superior Weapon Proficiency for something like Drow Long Knife means it's a +4 proficiency weapon.

Still, Greatbow vs. Drow Long Knife or Tratnyr...  Not much of a contest, IMO.

-O


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## DracoSuave (Apr 12, 2010)

Greatbow vs Farbond Spellblade Fullblade tho IS a contest.

But really, it's a controller, the closer range build is the -control- build, why would it be the damage king?

If you wanted to do massive damage with a bow, you'd be a Ranger.  This is a different country.


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## Obryn (Apr 12, 2010)

I dunno, I see great value in controlling the battlefield from 20+ squares back. 

And yes, there are specific magic weapons that can do very well for a Thrown Weapon character.  (Hungry Greatspear is my personal favorite here, fwiw.)  But then you're locked into that specific weapon enchantment - not a negligible downside, IMO.

-O


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## DracoSuave (Apr 12, 2010)

Yes, but 'upgrade your weapon two dice levels and give it high crit' isn't exactly a bad property to have on a weapon.


But, regardless, the seeker's a different animal-- weapons that give honest control in the same order that orbs or staffs do are what you want, and those are not so common in bows; generally you're looking at stuff that requires axes, light blades, heavy blades, hammers, spears...

...which is where a bowseeker loses out greatly.

Just cause it has [W] in the power doesn't mean you want to fill it with the highest die you can.  Controllers should be looking at the powers of weapons and how they maximize his role, not at how much DPR they can squeeze out of it.


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## Mr. Teapot (Apr 12, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> Just cause it has [W] in the power doesn't mean you want to fill it with the highest die you can.  Controllers should be looking at the powers of weapons and how they maximize his role, not at how much DPR they can squeeze out of it.




This is true in general, but especially true for seekers, as their powers are typically 1[w] + extra damage + effect, as opposed to other classes that get 2[w] or 3[w] or more.


+4 proficiency bonus from a feat or weapon enchantment seems pretty nice.  Better than a few more points of damage, if you're interested in control.


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## Obryn (Apr 12, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> But, regardless, the seeker's a different animal-- weapons that give honest control in the same order that orbs or staffs do are what you want, and those are not so common in bows; generally you're looking at stuff that requires axes, light blades, heavy blades, hammers, spears...
> 
> ...which is where a bowseeker loses out greatly.



Such as?  Honestly, I'm not seeing where those weapons win out over a bow, particularly if you need to take the Farbond Spellblade or Hungry enchantments to use them as a thrown weapon.  (And remember, really you're limited to daggers and javelins without spending a feat, so I don't know why axes, heavy blades, and hammers are on that list.)

Sky's the limit with bows and crossbows, though.  Any enchantment works equally well for them.  Spending a feat, you have +2/1d12 and +3/1d10 options, too.



> Just cause it has [W] in the power doesn't mean you want to fill it with the highest die you can.



Yes, you do, so long as your feat isn't better spent elsewhere.  And that's part of the problem - a thrown weapon seeker doesn't have much of a choice in whether or not to spend that feat up-front.  +3/1d4 and +2/1d6 aren't great, even when compared to other Controllers.

You might not be a striker, and you certainly don't want to compare DPR with them, but by doing more damage you are still contributing to combat in a meaningful way.  Just because you're a controller doesn't make the damage you do less useful than that of a striker.

-O


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## Herschel (Apr 12, 2010)

I was toying with the up-close Seeker a bit too and I was thinking Dwarf was the way to go with Wisdom boost and Dwarven Weapon Training for hand axes as well as the Second Wind as a minor since it wouldn't have defender HP/defenses.


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## DracoSuave (Apr 12, 2010)

I had this long diatribe all planned out on how close ranged seekers are just fine, control options, blah blah blah...


Then I realized trident is +3/1d8 damage military vs a long bow's +2/1d10 and I realized that, damage-wise, +3/1d8 is better, and control-wise, +3 is better, and I stopped worrying about their damage because they have great OAs and an encounter power that throws in an extra hit.

And then I realized the only advantage of the bow-seeker is range, and that they're probably better off using crossbows than bows, and then I went to bed.

Long story short:  Every argument about bow/crossbow seekers that ignores the fact that throwseekers get +1 to hit with their weapons is an incomplete argument and should relook at the numbers.

You're not comparing +2/1d4 to +2/1d10.  You're comparing +4/1d6 to +2/1d12 (in superior), or +3/1d8 to +2/1d10 (without a feat).

Or in the case of dwarves, +3/1d6+2 vs +2/1d12.

Or in the case of eladrin, +3/1d8+2 vs +2/1d12.

And most seeker powers at early levels anyways, are 1[W]+stuff, so the fact it's +2 -actually doesn't get washed out-.


Also, with a 16/16/12/11/10/9 array, an elf can go Heavy Blade Opportunity with that drow long knife...

....

.....

...

Grappling Spirits or Biting Swarm would be -very- good options to take with that, by the way.


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## Obryn (Apr 12, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> Then I realized trident is +3/1d8 damage military vs a long bow's +2/1d10 and I realized that, damage-wise, +3/1d8 is better, and control-wise, +3 is better,



Trident's +2/1d8, not +3.  Since you have to spend a feat already to get a military thrown weapon, you're better off with the +2/1d8 Tratnyr.  And a better comparison is a +3/1d10 Superior Crossbow or a +2/1d12 Greatbow.

If there were any +3/1d8 Thrown weapons without a specific enchantment, we wouldn't be having this conversation.



> and I stopped worrying about their damage because they have great OAs and an encounter power that throws in an extra hit.
> 
> And then I realized the only advantage of the bow-seeker is range, and that they're probably better off using crossbows than bows, and then I went to bed.



The calculation, though, is more like...

Thrown Seeker: Lower damage die, sometimes better accuracy with daggers, or drow knives.  Encounter power to do damage to someone who misses you.  Class ability which basically says, "We won't screw you on your AC."

Ranged Seeker: Higher damage die, usually equal accuracy, kobold shift, encounter power to move everyone away.  Can't make OAs well, but won't get OA'd, either.

Apart from, "My low-AC, low-HP, low-surge Controller can get into melee and make OA's," I'm not really seeing it as equal... 

EDIT: I do like Dwarves for thrown Seekers, though.

-O


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## DracoSuave (Apr 12, 2010)

Obryn said:


> Trident's +2/1d8, not +3.




I'm going to stop you right here, and I'm really happy for you, bow seekers, but thrown seekers have the best to-hit bonus of all time.  Of all time!

It has the Heavy Thrown property.

Throwing Seekers get +1 to hit with throwing weapons; bow seekers do not get +1 to hit with bows.

Therefore the comparision *is* +3/1d8 vs +2/1d10.

On a -ranger- you'd be correct.  On a -seeker- you need to actually include the numbers seekers use.


But you -are- right about the feat thing.  So, if you're spending a feat, it's for drow longknife, which IS +4 to hit.

Controller.  +4 weapon.

Here's a question for you.

If you're playing a psion, wizard, invoker, or druid.  Let's say you have a feat, and it's called 'Inverse Power Attack.'  It says, essentially 'Will you take -3 damage to get +2 to hit.'

Now, a war wizard'd not take that.  But if your business is control, and you're concerned about secondary attributes of damage, *you take that feat.*.

+2 to hit is NOT TRIVIAL for any class, but especially not for a seeker, whose job as thrown, again, isn't 'deal tons of damage', but 'foil the enemy's plans.' 

Hell, +2 to hit for -3 damage might even be a viable option for a striker....

Of course, a thrown seeker is kinda funny, they can take Power Throw which puts them back where they started more or less... but eh.

The main point is, you're *too caught up on damage* when you're comparing a non-high-damage build to a damaging build.  Bonus to hit is vastly more important for a controller than what amounts to a -small- amount of damage overall; crossbows are better for seekers than bows.

And yes, bow-seekers are good too, but for a different reason.


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## mneme (Apr 12, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> You're not comparing +2/1d4 to +2/1d10.  You're comparing +4/1d6 to +2/1d12 (in superior), or +3/1d8 to +2/1d10 (without a feat).



Was this last a typo?   Without messing with hungry or farbond, I see (for the "without a feat" options):

+4 1d4 or +3 1d6 to +2 1d10

That said, I do think there's an issue with the build in that it leaves a hand free.  Unless you're messing with superior hungry/farbond two handed throwing weapons, a thrown weapon seeker has a hand they can't use with a shield (not proficient with shields), can't usefully use for a second weapon (without taking feats, anyway), etc.  I suppose she can carry a torch, for groups that don't like the "stick the everburning torch in your belt" solution.


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## DracoSuave (Apr 12, 2010)

Having a free hand is an advantage, not a disadvantage.

I dunno, give your foes the middle finger?


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## Obryn (Apr 12, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> I'm going to stop you right here, and I'm really happy for you, bow seekers, but thrown seekers have the best to-hit bonus of all time.  Of all time!
> 
> It has the Heavy Thrown property.
> 
> ...



I'm aware that thrown weapon seekers get +1 to-hit.   I still think they get the short end of the stick here.

A great deal of that is because of their proficiencies.  If they simply got free proficiency in something other than daggers and javelins, I'd have no real beef with them.  I'd still think they were sub-par in comparison, but as it stands they're pretty well feat-taxed.  (Whereas a Crossbow or Longbow seeker can very easily do without.)  The fact that thrown weapons have such shorter ranges is, in my book, an automatic handicap for a Controller that isn't even figured in.

-O


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## UngeheuerLich (Apr 12, 2010)

It is just that thrown seekers don´t have martial throwing weapons and shields from the go. Otherwise they are fine:

You are comparing a twohanded weapon vs a onehanded weapon.
As a thrown weapon seeker, you can take a shield proficiency feat... even the heavy one AND actually use it in their off hand.

When you have a closer look at simple and martial throwing weapons, you will notice that damage wise they are about equal (Exception is the range 3/6 trident). Javelin and dagger are both very good weapons (actually the best martial or simple throwing weapons).

Also Damage dies on 1W powers are indeed neglectible. Who cares if you do 1d8+4 or 1d6+4 damage? The Damage increase i consider worthwile is a bonus that increases damage by more than 25%. With an average of 7.5 it is a +2 bonus. Notice that a ranger with twin strike will profit greatly from a +1 bonus.


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## Victim (Apr 12, 2010)

Thrown weapon seekers want to stick with spears anyway.



> Polearm Momentum
> Prerequisites: Dex 15, Wis 15, fighter
> Benefit: Whenever you use a polearm or a* spear*
> attack to push or slide a target 2 or more squares,
> ...




Thrown weapon seekers have a ton of push or slide powers.  If they multiclass and then pick up Polearm Momentum (possibly at paragon to make the dex requirement easier to swallow), then they're knocking enemies down and moving them.  So they can make it MUCH harder for the targets to get back into position.


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## Obryn (Apr 12, 2010)

UngeheuerLich said:


> You are comparing a twohanded weapon vs a onehanded weapon.
> As a thrown weapon seeker, you can take a shield proficiency feat... even the heavy one AND actually use it in their off hand.



Again, this is _costly._  For them to do anything with that off-hand, it's costing at least a feat that maybe could be spent elsewhere.  And we're maybe up to 3 feats now - SWP, Light Shield, and Heavy Shield.

-O


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## blargney the second (Apr 12, 2010)

To be fair, almost ANY weapon user is going to take SWP.  So it's really a difference of 2 feats if you want to use a heavy shield.  Crossbowers will need Rapid Reload, so that's down to 1 different.


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## UngeheuerLich (Apr 12, 2010)

Victim said:


> Thrown weapon seekers want to stick with spears anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Thrown weapon seekers have a ton of push or slide powers.  If they multiclass and then pick up Polearm Momentum (possibly at paragon to make the dex requirement easier to swallow), then they're knocking enemies down and moving them.  So they can make it MUCH harder for the targets to get back into position.



this is nice, actually 

If you think you can get away with 16 wis it could be funny. You could also use dex secondary instead of strength (18/13/13 build with a race like half orc so)

A human with 16/15/14 will also do very fine as does a 16/14/14/13 build for extra durability.
As always: if you accept a lower secondary or primary you can get into some really fun builds that should still work well enough.


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## DracoSuave (Apr 12, 2010)

Obryn said:


> I'm aware that thrown weapon seekers get +1 to-hit.   I still think they get the short end of the stick here.
> 
> A great deal of that is because of their proficiencies.  If they simply got free proficiency in something other than daggers and javelins, I'd have no real beef with them.  I'd still think they were sub-par in comparison, but as it stands they're pretty well feat-taxed.  (Whereas a Crossbow or Longbow seeker can very easily do without.)  The fact that thrown weapons have such shorter ranges is, in my book, an automatic handicap for a Controller that isn't even figured in.
> 
> -O




In the end tho, the comparison is accuracy vs range.  The damage is an afterthought for the controller, who needs that extra point less than anyone save for a specific build of cleric.

To be, it's like comparing an orblocking control wizard to a staff of power war wizard and saying that the war wizard is better because of the damage and defense. I don't think the comparison is apt in this case.  Seekers have no area or close burst at-wills, so the standard controller damage mechanic isn't even in their hands.  If I'm control-heavy, the extra accuracy is more important than damage, which to be honest, is the lowest on the list of priorities.  I want -effects- not -DPR-.

As for the range issue, ask a Beast Form Druid if range is a problem.  Controllers can work at close range *if they are designed for it.*  And in this case, the thrown seeker is.


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## sev (Apr 13, 2010)

Herschel said:


> I was toying with the up-close Seeker a bit too and I was thinking Dwarf was the way to go with Wisdom boost and Dwarven Weapon Training for hand axes as well as the Second Wind as a minor since it wouldn't have defender HP/defenses.




or just make do with Dwarven Weapon Proficiency, which comes with the race choice, and use throwing hammers, and use the feat for something else.  To DracoSuave's earlier point, things like Lullabye Weapon are restricted to things that go thud (flail, hammer, mace, staff).


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## Saeviomagy (Apr 13, 2010)

As a dagger-wielding rogue, it's a pretty rare event for me to have to suck back long range penalties to target a foe. 4e combat rarely occurs at ranges outside of 10 squares, let alone 10 squares + a move. And the thrown weapon seeker can still wield a bow/crossbow, yes? So he could have a backup?


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## sev (Apr 13, 2010)

Saeviomagy said:


> As a dagger-wielding rogue, it's a pretty rare event for me to have to suck back long range penalties to target a foe. 4e combat rarely occurs at ranges outside of 10 squares, let alone 10 squares + a move. And the thrown weapon seeker can still wield a bow/crossbow, yes? So he could have a backup?




Wait, aren't daggers 5/10?  My (oversized) party regularly gets into combat with those at the back of the party more than 5 squares away from the front.  So I wouldn't be surprised to find a throwing seeker in between 5 and 10 squares away from a target, getting a range penalty.

Also, extra range = more flexibility when it comes to finding cover -- sometimes there's good reason to spread that combat out.


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## Saeviomagy (Apr 13, 2010)

sev said:


> Wait, aren't daggers 5/10?  My (oversized) party regularly gets into combat with those at the back of the party more than 5 squares away from the front.  So I wouldn't be surprised to find a throwing seeker in between 5 and 10 squares away from a target, getting a range penalty.




Is your oversized party fighting in corridors all the time?

That's 5 squares of range plus 6 squares of movement: if the thrown seeker starts at 10 squares, he can close that to short range fairly easily unless the battlefield is incredibly congested.


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## sev (Apr 13, 2010)

Saeviomagy said:


> Is your oversized party fighting in corridors all the time?




short answer: Yes.

We've been spending a lot of time in twisty little passages, except when  we're inside the hallways of houses, so, yes, we're fighting our way  out of corridors a lot. When all the players show up, the back 1 or 2  characters are more than 5 squares away from the action during the first round of combat.  Not a party-breaker, certainly.  Just annoying for the cleric in the back with a Ranged 5 Sacred Flame, who spends a lot of first-rounds delaying.

Regarding the original topic, if I were playing a thrown-weapon seeker the shorter range would *absolutely* change my tactics as compared to a bow-wielding seeker.  Short range is not a deal-breaker, but it does reduce flexibility (finding cover being my favorite example) and I'd expect something for that trade-off.  And, as DracoSuave points out, that something is accuracy; I hadn't previously noticed the +1 bonus to accuracy with Spiritbond (making that dwarven seeker with throwing hammers even more attractive for me).


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## DracoSuave (Apr 13, 2010)

The other thing to note, spiritbond actually -wants- a monster to swing at it... a free 1[W]+Strength damage roll that doesn't require an attack roll just for swing-and-a-miss is nothing to sneeze at.

They also have Hunter's Instinct as a level 2 utility, giving them crit range of 19-20 vs enemies within 2 squares, which happens all the time for these guys.

At level 6, they can use a minor action to negate long range penalties until EoNT...

Getting close isn't as much of a problem for these guys as you'd think at first glance.


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## UngeheuerLich (Apr 13, 2010)

It is really funyy sometimes to read what are dealbreakers. Clerics also have no shield proficiency and lousy weapons. The have to pay the same feat tax to get to the point where the throwing weapon seeker should be.

3 feats sounds like a lot, but you will have it latest at level 4 and you can live with a light shield at first level easily. (I wouldn´t recommend the heavy shield actually.)


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## Herschel (Apr 13, 2010)

The thing that bugs me a bit is it's another Str/Wis optimal class choice. I'd rather it be Str/Int for "variety".


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## Deverash (Apr 13, 2010)

For the thrown weapon seeker I'm working on, I think i'm going to go Bolo Training.  +4 bonus to hit, and the ability to not deal damage and immobilize?  And still get all the other effects of the power?  Sounds good to me.


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## mysticknight232 (Apr 15, 2010)

You guys have all posted some great points of discussion.  i apprecaite the way this thread really took off.  i guess my problem still lays in the fact that in order to use the thrown weapon powers as melee powers, you have to use a light or heavy thrown weapon of which there are only 2 base options.  

All other things aside, if you want to melee with this class, which i would argue would be pretty cool, you still only get to choose from 2 weapon with which to use your powers unless you choose a certain race (Dwarf) or feat out a weapon proficiency right off the bat.  i'm just estimating here, but i would think that a typical melee class gets 8 - 12 melee weapons to choose from.  This is mostly why i think that the thrown weapon build isn't very good, there is no versatility to the weapon choice.  +1 TH is great, there's no doubt about that, but i just feel cheated when i see a bunch of dual axe wielding seeker drawings, yet i can't use a throwing axe without spending a feat on it.  I just feel like the "archer" build is far superior to the thrown weapon build and this is the first time i've felt that one build was this superior than the other


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## Herschel (Apr 15, 2010)

The vast majority of weapon users feat out a superior weapon at first level anyway, not just the seeker. The only reason my swordmage still uses a longsword is because of a feat shortage.


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## bganon (Apr 16, 2010)

Melee rogues really only have two choices for a weapon, too (dagger, shortsword), and people didn't complain too much about that.  Yeah, there were a few that bemoaned the loss of mace/sap or whatever, but MP fixed that anyway.  Even so, most melee rogue builds seem to stick to dagger or feat up to rapier.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 19, 2010)

This looks as good a place to post this as any other...

I don't have my books with me at the moment, but as I recall, there is a Seeker power that makes a ranged attack into a burst.

Does that mean that the ranged weapon is consumed by the power?  If so, that would clearly be one for the projectile Seekers as opposed to thrown weapon guys.



> Melee rogues really only have two choices for a weapon, too (dagger, shortsword), and people didn't complain too much about that.




As I recall, though, there aren't cool illustrations of a character wielding 2 axes in the rogue section.  Kind of a bait-and-switch.


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## Obryn (Apr 19, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Does that mean that the ranged weapon is consumed by the power?  If so, that would clearly be one for the projectile Seekers as opposed to thrown weapon guys.



Thrown Weapon seekers get their weapons back after each attack, even if they are nonmagical.  This'd include when they do burst damage.

The burst is primal in nature, according to the class's flavor text; it's not the weapon itself exploding, it's the spirits of nature tearing into your enemies.

-O


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 19, 2010)

That'll do then- I can keep Tommy Bahamut as an Axe & Javelin guy.


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## mysticknight232 (Apr 20, 2010)

It has come to my attention that new Marauder Ranger build from MP2 seems to be everything i had expected the Thrown Weapon Seeker build to be.  Pair the Marauder Ranger build with a Minotaur class and you have a throwing and charging menace.  Not to mention that shear amount of weapons available to the ranger class make this everything i had hoped the Thrown Weapon Seeker would be and more.  

Granted, there is a singular glaring difference...i realize the Ranger is a Striker and the Seeker is a Controller.  Still, i feel the flavor of the Marauder build is head and shoulders better than Thrown Weapon build.  

I just wanted to throw that out there in case anybody was still dissapointed at the Thrown Weapon build.


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## Herschel (Apr 20, 2010)

So you wanted to be a damage monkey instead of a controller. That's fine, but the Seeker was never going to be able to do what you wanted it to.


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## mysticknight232 (Apr 20, 2010)

Herschel said:


> So you wanted to be a damage monkey instead of a controller. That's fine, but the Seeker was never going to be able to do what you wanted it to.




the post was originally about the thrown weapon selection for the seeker class beeing poor.  the Marauder Ranger build has more thrown weapon options and is more of what i expected the thrown weapon seeker build to be, namely a class the melee'd well but had a good ranged power base as well.   based on artwork that was presented in the PHB3 (a seeker DW a handaxe), i expected more out of the thrown weapon build.  as far as the roles, i was merely identifying the difference between the two classes.


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## UngeheuerLich (Apr 22, 2010)

Throwing weapon seeker does its job quite good, but the picture is a bit off. The rest seems very fine to me...

+1 to hit on powers that mainly not rely on damage die is huge...


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## Herschel (May 1, 2010)

My only issue now is the Githzerai throwing Seeker I am trying to build doesn't get any use out of his racial heavy blade feat outside of a melee basic with an off-hand weapon.


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## Lord Ernie (May 1, 2010)

Herschel said:


> My only issue now is the Githzerai throwing Seeker I am trying to build doesn't get any use out of his racial heavy blade feat outside of a melee basic with an off-hand weapon.



How about a Farbond Spellblade? You're forced to use a specific weapon enhancement, true, but that way you can throw a fullblade at people. Which, let's be honest, is awesome.


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## Herschel (May 1, 2010)

Yeah, not going to work. The DM for that campaign (as well as when I DM) don't just hand out cheese at every turn. It would be a long time until I could go that route and I don't want to be dependent on getting a single item.


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## Grimgrin (May 2, 2010)

I'm not aware of any erratta to this effect, but I think that in the case of the seeker all military thrown weapons should be included in the seeker's weapon proficiencies. This makes sense to me both logically, mechanically, and based the artistic depictions of the class in PH3.


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## Herschel (May 3, 2010)

Military yes, but the only throwing blade is the dagger, which is light. The Drow Long Knife is a heavy thrown blade but is Superior, not standard military, and not covered by the Githzerai Racial Feat. Conversely, Dwarves get Axes with their racial boost, including the throwing axe, and do get the boost to a thrown weapon. If the Gith Racial Feat worked with even the Long Knife feat it would be fine (because there is a +1 proficiency bonus with teh knife vs. the hand axe), but it doesn't.


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## Grimgrin (May 3, 2010)

Herschel said:


> Military yes, but the only throwing blade is the dagger, which is light. The Drow Long Knife is a heavy thrown blade but is Superior, not standard military, and not covered by the Githzerai Racial Feat. Conversely, Dwarves get Axes with their racial boost, including the throwing axe, and do get the boost to a thrown weapon. If the Gith Racial Feat worked with even the Long Knife feat it would be fine (because there is a +1 proficiency bonus with teh knife vs. the hand axe), but it doesn't.




_Logically, if a race has a preference for heavy blades and wishes to use a heavy blade as a thrown weapon they would develop such a weapon._

There are two "real world" thrown weapons that I can think of that fit within the heavy blade group, but are not yet described in any 4E book I have seen; The mambele (African throwing iron) and the chakram (razor edged iron or bronze discus). 

As military weapons: Prof: +2, Dam: 1d6, Rng: 6/12, Price: 10gp, W: 3lbs, Group: Heavy Blade, Prop: Heavy Thrown. (similar to the Xen'drik boomerang but no automatic return with proficiency)
As superior weapons: Ditto except Prof: +3.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 3, 2010)

Grimgrin said:


> Logically, if a race has a preference for heavy blades and wishes to use a heavy blade as a thrown weapon, they would develop such a weapon.
> 
> There are two "real world" thrown weapons that I can think of that fit within the heavy blade group and are not yet described in any 4E book I have seen.
> 
> The mambele (African throwing knife) and the chakram (razor edged discus). If you were to allow either of these two weapons as "military" (I.E.: Prof: +2, 1d6, Rng 6/12, Wt: 2 lbs, Off hand, Heavy Thrown).




To be fair, the chakram varies in size from something you could palm to something you can wear as a necklace...as was seen on [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDNw2slOK3Y"]Weapon Masters.[/ame]


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## renau1g (May 3, 2010)

Herschel said:


> Yeah, not going to work. The DM for that campaign (as well as when I DM) don't just hand out cheese at every turn. It would be a long time until I could go that route and I don't want to be dependent on getting a single item.




Just curious, but why do you feel it's cheese? You're forced to give up your weapon enhancement for it. There are tons of awesome weapons out there, but you *have* to use this enchantment. Seems exactly the basis for it.


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## Herschel (May 3, 2010)

Because any build that relies on one certain, specific enchantment is cheese. A good build works with most enchantments and isn't reliant on them but can be enhanced by them.


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## chorolus (May 3, 2010)

I know most of this thread has been discussion over the limited weapon selection throwing seekers have, but as for giving your seeker a bit of a damage boost, what about a Hybrid Ranger/Seeker that's using two thrown weapons with Twin Strike? Granted you would be giving up the chance to use one of your controller-type At-Will attacks to use Twin Strike, but for me it would be a fair compromise for the dps versus controller argument.


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## AbdulAlhazred (May 3, 2010)

Grimgrin said:


> _Logically, if a race has a preference for heavy blades and wishes to use a heavy blade as a thrown weapon they would develop such a weapon._
> 
> There are two "real world" thrown weapons that I can think of that fit within the heavy blade group, but are not yet described in any 4E book I have seen; The mambele (African throwing iron) and the chakram (razor edged iron or bronze discus).
> 
> ...




In all fairness, if a membele isn't an axe, what is? It may be a single piece of metal but you're going to use it like an axe and it really should be in the axe group (and in fact really might as well be statted up as a hand axe).

I'd be somewhat skeptical of calling a chakram a HEAVY blade either. Doesn't really seem at all close functionally to other blades and is more of a specialist unique weapon.

I think the whole point with heavy blades is their design is rather mutually exclusive with being effective throwing weapons since their advantages are speed and reach more than anything. Long thin relatively straight blades of a heft beyond comfortable throwing weight just don't ever make good ranged weapons.


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## Grimgrin (May 3, 2010)

chorolus said:


> What about a Hybrid Ranger/Seeker that's using two thrown weapons with Twin Strike? Granted you would be giving up the chance to use one of your controller-type At-Will attacks to use Twin Strike, but for me it would be a fair compromise for the dps versus controller argument.




If I read it right, you gain only the associated power, _Spirit's Rebuke_, of the Spiritbond and not the other abilities, so your thrown weapons would not return after each throw which is the main advantage of taking a thrown weapon seeker rather than a bow/sling seeker.


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## chorolus (May 3, 2010)

Grimgrin said:


> If I am read it right, you gain only the associated power, _Spirit's Rebuke_, of the Spiritbond and not the other abilities, so your thrown weapons would not return after each throw which is the main advantage of taking a thrown weapon seeker rather than a bow/sling seeker.




I'm reading straight from the Character Builder, so the book answer may be slightly different, but the wording of the Spirit Bond weapon-returning quality states that it works on ANY weapon you are proficient with, and doesn't mention anything along the lines of only working with Seeker Powers only, or anything along those lines...


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## Herschel (May 4, 2010)

It's not necessarily about a big damage boost. Lets face it, a throwing seeker's damage will be about like a ranged seeker with permanent weakened but a bit better accuracy while needing to be closer to the fray, but having more viable options would be better, in my mind. In most cases, it would appear a Dwarf is just a better option that a Githzerai (and Dwarves are simply a great race for a melee character). I'm not even saying it's necessarily a problem, just an issue.


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## mneme (May 4, 2010)

Herschel said:


> Lets face it, a throwing seeker's damage will be about like a ranged seeker with permanent weakened but a bit better accuracy while needing to be closer to the fray,




Eh -- not really.  The fact that a seeker's damage scales with extra dice, not extra W's (eg, 1W + 3d8 and so on) means that a throwing seeker's damage isn't going to be that much worse than a ranged  seeker (and will scale upwards in comparison, as the extra dice drown out the W damage).


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## Herschel (May 4, 2010)

Yeah, the damage difference does, more or less, 'go away' after some levels (which is good) but early heroic can be tough as that's where PCs already feel most vulnerable. That said, generally a Dwarf is just an awesome option.


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## mysticknight232 (May 4, 2010)

Not everybody starts a character at lvl 5 or 11 or beyond.  I think the decrease in dmg dice from d10 (minimum w/ a longbow or d12 w/ a greatbow) down to a d6 will be significant during the entire heroic tier.  with the lack of weapons available, i'd rather just play a psion or another controller the will do more dmg and have less restrictions when it comes to weapon choices or powers.  as it stands now, if you want to be a thrown weapon seeker and plan on using powers for melee attacks, you're pretty limited to what you can choose.


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## chorolus (May 4, 2010)

Well, I guess I forgot to state it above, but one solution to the limited Thrown Weapon selection that Seekers start with is to simply hybrid-class with something else that comes with more Weapon Proficiencies... 

I listed Ranger as an example because it could help with some of the damage-dealing complaints in this thread as well. You could just as easily Hybridize with a Rogue or any other melee class, and basically come trained in every throwing weapon available. You could pick up pretty much all non-superior weapons that way too, and  gain a bit more utility as a hybrid class character. 

Stat-wise, those throwing weapons aren't exactly golden...but if you want more flexibility, just skin an existing weapon, and use its stats...but then call the weapon something else as 'fluff'. You could use the stats for a Drow Long Dagger, but have a character portrait of you flinging Dwarven Handaxes around then explain in your character bio that your daggers are viciously curved, and resemble axes more then anything else... Or like was said above, you could  negotiate with your GM, perhaps perform/pay someone to perform an enchantment-swap ritual, and  pick up any Heavy Blade weapon you're proficient with that has the Farbond  enchantment and fling that around instead.


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## bganon (May 6, 2010)

Twin Strike with thrown weapons would be Dex-based, which doesn't really mesh well with the Spiritbond Seeker build.  Throwing-based Seekers are probably better off with Throw and Stab.  In general the Marauder style Ranger options synergize better.

But really, I think the issue with Seekers is that IMO despite what you might think looking at the class, it's the Dex-secondary build that leans striker, while the Str-secondary build is if anything more pure "controller", but with some weird melee-range options (that are all about moving enemies around).

In the end, though, I'd probably give a Spiritbond Seeker free handaxe/throwing hammer proficiencies anyway, and probably trident too.  The first two have hardly any advantage over javelin anyway (and shorter range), so it's mostly fluff.


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## chorolus (May 6, 2010)

...nevermind...


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## mneme (May 6, 2010)

Chorolus: that just isnt true.  Try actually using charbuilder, not that it's a rules reference, but still -- ranged attacks with Twin Strike always use dex, and melee attacks always use str.

It's only with ranged basic attacks that you get to use Str with heavy thrown weapons (and str-based ranged powers, of course, but you could use light thrown weapons with those for the same benefit).


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