# The length of a post should be open to criticism



## Doug McCrae (Jul 3, 2010)

Too long, didn't read

The length, or indeed any presentational aspect of a post, such as color, font size, writing style, structure, etc, should be something that's open to criticism. If a post is confusing, or uses obscure language that hampers understanding, can we not comment on that? It helps the writer to know what people think, even if he disagrees.

Length is just the same. Beyond a certain point, it becomes inappropriate for a discussion board, and more suited to other media.

If the presentational aspects are so bad that they stop the reader even being able to comment on the content, then isn't that, in itself, worth commenting upon, and helpful for the writer? The writer presumably wishes his text to be read by as many people as possible.

It seems little different than saying a hyperlink is broken. The broken link stops me viewing the desired content, just as the length of the text stops me from viewing the desired content. Or that a long, paragraph-less piece of text should be split into paragraphs. Or that text that uses a too small font size should be made larger.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jul 3, 2010)

If nobody at all was responding to the post and the OP was bumping the thread asking why nobody was posting, or if the OP was specifically looking for your thoughts, then I think it would be fine to post about your opinion about the length. 

On the other hand, if other people are not finding it too long to read and have engaged in discussion, then what value does it add by your dropping in and posting that the thread is too long for you to read?  Are you saying we should edit our posts so that we can gain your valuable insight?  

Personally, I think Hobo's post was a much better way to handle it.  By engaging in the discussion while acknowleging that he could not get through the entire thing, it at least indicates he had enough interest in the topic itself to take a look.  

You only had enough interest to click through and see that it was too long to even bother attempting to read it.  You add nothing to the conversation other than to let everyone else know that you don't like long posts.


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## Doug McCrae (Jul 3, 2010)

Thornir Alekeg said:


> Personally, I think Hobo's post was a much better way to handle it.  By engaging in the discussion while acknowleging that he could not get through the entire thing, it at least indicates he had enough interest in the topic itself to take a look.



 You're saying that in order for the presentational comment to be valid it should be placed in a post along with content comment, which is quite a strange thing to ask. If a comment is worthwhile, then it can stand alone.

Sure, it's just an opinion, but isn't most of what we say on this board opnion? And isn't opinion about presentation valuable? I think I would want to know if something about my writing style made my posts unreadable to some people.


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## Merkuri (Jul 3, 2010)

It's really a matter of timing, I think.  If a post goes without replies for some time and/or if the original poster is replying asking why where are no replies, then it's okay to pop in and say something like, "Your post is way too long for a message board."  In that case, you're offering suggestions on what the OP can do next time to get more responses.

But when a thread already has multiple replies, then a post like that comes across as rude.  Obviously there were other people who didn't think it was too long to reply to, so saying "Your post is too long to read" is no longer helpful.  At that point, if you think the original post is too long, just skip it and go on to the next thread.

The fact of the matter is, there's no character limit on discussion board posts (well, there is, but it's HUGE) and that doesn't physically prevent anyone from reading it.  Too small font or a bad color can make a post physically difficult to read, but the length of the post is only damaging to a person's attention span on a board like this.  If the post is engaging then you may want to read the whole thing.  So saying, "Your post is too long," is different than saying "That font is hard to read."


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## Doug McCrae (Jul 3, 2010)

Merkuri said:


> But when a thread already has multiple replies, then a post like that comes across as rude.  Obviously there were other people who didn't think it was too long to reply to, so saying "Your post is too long to read" is no longer helpful.



Maybe there would have been a lot more replies if the opening post had been shorter.


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## Merkuri (Jul 3, 2010)

Doug McCrae said:


> Maybe there would have been a lot more replies if the opening post had been shorter.




Perhaps, but that doesn't change the fact that it's rude.  It's like going over someone's house for dinner (someone you don't know well) and telling them they used too much salt so you didn't eat it when there were other guests that seemed happy with the meal.  It may be true, but it's still very very rude.


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## El Mahdi (Jul 3, 2010)

Doug McCrae said:


> ...




Sorry.  The post was too long so I didn't read it all... (just kidding).

I didn't read the post/thread that initiated this, but I think that as long as the person posting that they think a post is too long or inappropriate is not being mean, rude, or otherwise a jerk, I really don't see the problem with it.  If the poster or others reply that they don't agree, well then you've said your peice and that should be the end of it.  I don't think the poster or others have a right to tell the commentor that they had no place saying a post was too long or inappropriate though.  Just politely disagree and move on.  If everyone remains polite and courteous about it, I don't see any problem.




Merkuri said:


> Perhaps, but that doesn't change the fact that it's rude. It's like going over someone's house for dinner (someone you don't know well) and telling them they used too much salt so you didn't eat it when there were other guests that seemed happy with the meal. It may be true, but it's still very very rude.




I don't agree with this so much.  The forums are a common area, not owned by anyone here except Morrus.  I don't think it can be equated to going to someones house.  I don't think that someone simply stating that they think a post is too long or inappropriate is rude in and of itself.  If the way in which it's said is rude, then that's another story entirely.

This situation sounds more like telling someone in a public space (restaurant, food mall, park, etc.) that they are being too loud or disruptive.  I don't have a problem with that as long as it remains civil and respectful.

I've fallen prey to this myself, but perhaps there's too much of a sense of ownership at play here.  None of us are owners here.  Even community supporters.  We've paid for the privilege of some extra access, but we are all just visitors here, and should comport ourselves as such.  Trust me, I've learned this one the hard way.


Just my $0.02.


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## jaerdaph (Jul 3, 2010)

*Here is the Perfect Sized Post*

Me too!


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## Merkuri (Jul 3, 2010)

El Mahdi said:


> I don't agree with this so much.  The forums are a common area, not owned by anyone here except Morrus.  I don't think it can be equated to going to someones house.




In a way, each thread is its own enclosed semiprivate space... maybe not a house but perhaps a table in a cafeteria.

Imagine if some stranger came over to your table where you were having a discussion with your friends and told you out of nowhere that the shirt you were wearing was too silly and that nobody would take you seriously in it.  That's the equivalent to popping into a thread with an active discussion and saying nothing other than, "Your post is too long."

Don't pop into a thread and give criticism related to the presentation but not the content of a post.  It's not helpful, and if that's all you have to say it comes across like you don't care about the poster or the thread and you were just trying to jab at someone.

If you toss that in along with other discussion (instead of just saying, "Your shirt is too silly," you can say, "That's a good/bad/neutral point you said, but it's hard to take you seriously with that shirt") then it softens the blow a little and shows that you care about what's being said.


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## Alzrius (Jul 3, 2010)

doug mccrae said:


> the length, or indeed any presentational aspect of a post, such as color, font size, writing style, structure, etc, should be something that's open to criticism.




o rly?


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## LightPhoenix (Jul 3, 2010)

Basically, I see it as akin to (and basically as) thread-crapping.  If you didn't read the post, why are you posting in the thread at all, let alone simply to say that you didn't read it?  That's exactly like the people who threadcrap in the 4E or DDI threads.

There would be a valid complaint if the original post was an _actual_ criticism about the length of the post, or if it contributed _anything_ to the discussion.  It didn't, and so this seems more like a case of sour grapes than anything.


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## Umbran (Jul 3, 2010)

Doug McCrae said:


> Length is just the same. Beyond a certain point, it becomes inappropriate for a discussion board, and more suited to other media.




Having some critique of presentation is not horrible. 

Having _only_ critique of presentation tends to come across as over-critical, dismissive, threadcrapping,or the like.  In this particular case, your point about "that's better for a blog post" reads quite a bit like, "that's a great house rule", which we also discourage as a response in the rules forums.

Is it best to have a huge wall of text?  Maybe not in many cases.  But it isn't a sin, either. While blogs are great for long pieces, blogs also require the reader to be looking directly at you, while a message board gets far more "passing through" traffic.  If you don't have a well-read blog to begin with, a message board isn't a bad place to put such a thing.

Ultimately, if you don't care enough to read at least some of what he's got to say, you probably should just leave it be.  Hobo, just below your post, is a good example.  He also had problems with the presentation, but took the time to at least read and talk a little about the topic of the thread.



> If the presentational aspects are so bad that they stop the reader even being able to comment on the content, then isn't that, in itself, worth commenting upon, and helpful for the writer?




Giving constructive criticism is an art, and requires a bit more finesse than just speaking your mind.  Perhaps ironically, presentation of criticism may well be more important than presentation of the original post.

For example, public criticism tends to engage the ego a lot more strongly than doing it privately.  So, next time, you might consider going through all the reading anyway, making a short on-topic post, and then follow that up with a PM: "I think you made some good points in that post, but next time, you might consider...."


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## Nifft (Jul 3, 2010)

Thornir Alekeg said:


> If nobody at all was responding to the post and the OP was bumping the thread asking why nobody was posting, or if the OP was specifically looking for your thoughts, then I think it would be fine to post about your opinion about the length.



 This.

It is not good etiquette to walk up to a stranger and tell him what you think of his taste in clothing.

If he asks, then one is free to offer one's opinion.

Cheers, -- N


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## Doug McCrae (Jul 4, 2010)

In order to be a better member of the community, I must try to be more like Hobo.

This is a new low.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jul 4, 2010)

Doug McCrae said:


> In order to be a better member of the community, I must try to be more like Hobo.
> 
> This is a new low.



Hopefully that was a kidding remark, rather than a cheap shot.  

I guess in this case the answer is, yes, try and be more like Hobo and at least have the courtesy to try and read it before posting a criticism of the post length.  If not, then you might be better off remembering what they say about when you can't say anything nice.


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## Abraxas (Jul 4, 2010)

I suggest that if a post appears too long, you either ignore it or, if the topic really does interest you, ask the OP to give you the condensed version

My own forum viewing habit is to ignore any post that includes elements that I find make it hard to read. If it is something a particular poster habitually does I put them on my ignore list.


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## Merkuri (Jul 4, 2010)

Abraxas said:


> I suggest that if a post appears too long, you either ignore it or, if the topic really does interest you, ask the OP to give you the condensed version




Asking for a condensed version or summary sounds like another good way to show that you're genuinely interested but turned away by the format.  It doesn't come across as mean criticism, it comes across as, "I want to read this, but I can't.  Help me?"


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## IronWolf (Jul 4, 2010)

Doug McCrae said:


> Length is just the same. Beyond a certain point, it becomes inappropriate for a discussion board, and more suited to other media.




This seems quite subjective.  For you a long opening post may be inappropriate, but it seems the OP is getting responses and some interaction.  

I don't see why discussing things at length on a *discussion* board is inappropriate.  Sure, not everyone will have the attention span to read the whole first post, but it does seem some folks did and commented.

If you see an opening post that exceeds your idea of how long an opening post should be, hit the back button and find another post to contribute to the discussion on.  Just as you would with a topic that was not particularly interesting to you.


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