# D&D has threatened my job!



## d20fool (Sep 10, 2004)

I'm a teacher, I teach fifth grade communication arts (English) and science in a small town here in Missouri.  In general, I've really liked living here.  

Recently I began to allow high school students at my gaming table.  It's been too hard to keep a group of 20+ year old players in such a small town.  Currently, about one-third of my players are in their late teens.

Today, my principal, who is a good guy, calls me in to tell me he has had three phone calls about me "luring high school boys" into Dungeons and Dragons, which the callers seemed to think was a bad thing.  (I think kids spending social time that does not include drinking, smoking, using drugs, car racing, burglary, shoplifting, vandalism, or unprotected sex is a good thing, but that's me.) 

He told that that he was not concerned, but to be careful about what I do.  In particular, he thought I should play the game someplace public like in a library.  Finally, he said if an accusation came up my job would be over, at least in this district.  As a teacher, I know this is true.  Simple accusations are devastating.

I responded that I wasn't doing anything wrong, I had considered exactly this scenario but thought that I should not live in fear.  Further, that high schoolers made up at most one-third of my group.  He simply cautioned me again to "be careful."

As for the source of this rumor recently I had a friend of one of my high school players turn up at my table (I did not "lure" him.)  He enjoyed the game throughly, but then had a row with his mother and she forbade him from playing further.  She said that it was "weird" that I would want to play with "kids" and that some of the other teachers had called me "weird" as well.  Well, I'll admit to being "weird" but being a nerd is not a crime. Regardless, this woman is probably the spearhead of the whisper campaign against me.  

Any help here folks?  What should my course of action be?  Any lawyers in the house have advice for me? 

Thank you,


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## Dark Jezter (Sep 10, 2004)

Just to be on the safe side, I wouldn't let any of your players name their rogue "Black Leaf."


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## Mark (Sep 10, 2004)

I'm no lawyer but I don't think it is wise, as an adult, to game with minors (who are not your own children) in anything other than a public setting.  Further, I would not do so without the knowledge and consent of the parents of those minors, and third party witnessing of that consent (others at the gamestore, library, etc. being around when you asked if it is all right for them to play).


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## Vrecknidj (Sep 10, 2004)

First, get a lawyer--I can't help in that department.  Second, I'm a teacher; and I've been a gamer since 1980.  Third, I've lived in a small town my whole life.

Okay, that said, I haven't done what you're doing--my groups are always private groups that play in someone's home (except for Cons).  But, I often game with a bunch of 15-year olds (I'm 36) and I suppose it could look pretty weird were it not for the fact that one of them is my son.  So, I cannot speak to your experiences directly, but at least mine are a little bit similar.

Hopefully a bit of research will, I suppose, generate some documentation of the academic and social benefits of gaming.  I think I've seen some floating around the 'net before.

When I was a kid, several of us played at a local church--a youth counselor was the DM, and he did a good job helping folks get beyond the "D&D is a bad influence" garbage.  So, you might want to see if there are any kids in your group that have church groups, and then see if you can talk sense with any of the leaders of that church.  In a political fight, it's good to have allies, and if you're going up against a public entity like a school, it's good to have a similarly large ally like a church.  As a matter of fact, if you could get permission to use a recreation room in a church to play, that would help.

I happen to work for a private military school, so the rules we follow are distinctly different from the rules that another school will follow.  But, this place happens to be a military school, and I know that there are many, many members of the military who play D&D and other RPGs.  (There's a letter to the editor in a recent Dragon magazine about this as well.)  If you could get some documentation of D&D as a positive influence in the military, that could go a long way toward easing the concerns of some of the folks in your town (especially if they tend toward the parochial in the secular sense).

In any case, I wouldn't confront the woman you suspect of being the leader of the rumors against you.  Maybe later, if things go well, it'll be okay, but I'd certainly leave that unexploded powder keg in its unexploded state.

Best of luck,

Dave


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## Tuzenbach (Sep 10, 2004)

I'm afraid the age-old "Business and Pleasure" adage must apply here. Mix the two, lose both.


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## Serps (Sep 10, 2004)

Sounds like your Principal, while not exactly backing you up, at least gave you the opportunity to CYA. You know how insular small towns are; you need to convince at least some of the parents of the kids you game with that it's an acceptable pastime. You won't be able to convince them all, but it's better to get it resolved now than to court suspicion among naturally-suspicious townsfolk.

I suggest having a private talk with the parents of each kid, explaining just what it is you do at a gaming session, and inviting them to ask questions. Start with the ones you think would be the most open-minded, to stop bad rumours being spread to the others. At the end of each talk, invite them to sit in on a game so they can see for themselves.

As I said, there will be some parents that will pull their kids out. That's their decision (well, at least until the kids are legally adults), so you'll have to abide by it. Hopefully, giving insight into what RPGing is about will diffuse the inevitable rumours. 

If not, screw it and move away. Life's too short to be surrounded by intolerant pricks.


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## dvvega (Sep 10, 2004)

I can give you the perspective from the Australian Education Department. My wife is a primary school teacher, and I teach at a technical college (caters for 16+). I've also tutored privately for finals (HSC here in New South Wales). As a teacher there are a lot more issues than just having "kids" at the gaming table. A games shop owner does not go under as much scrutiny as a teacher. This is of course stupid, but it is society's way. Especially with all these news items about teachers seducing young boys/girls etc. The teacher is in contact with the children 5 out of 7 days a week normally, and then the children want to spend MORE time with a teacher. It will come under scrutiny.

The laws here in Australia are extremely clear, strict, and open to abuse by people wanting to cause trouble. The safest things are as follows:

1) Actually ask the parents permission to allow their children to play. Until they are of legal age (age of consent is a valid mark here even though you're not up to anything) the parents are responsible, and hence you will become the scapegoat. Invite them to watch a session or two (not all at once, but one set of parents at a time). This will give them the feeling that they may monitor you and the game. You might even set up a "coffee room" for parents who wish to come and watch. That way they can talk to each other, spend social time together, and their children will be in the next room.

2) Disallow under aged people at your table. This is unfair of course, but as a teacher you need to ensure you do not cross any lines (imaginary or real). Here in Australia a comforting hug from a teacher could lead to accusations of attempted abuse and it has happened at my wife's school. Even though it was cleared up, the teacher in question has a permanent record entry indicated a case was brought against her. It's gotten so bad now that shouting is not allowed here in Australia.

3) Play in a public place as your headmaster suggested. Even better use the school's library, or school grounds. This gives the impression of legitimacy, support from your own school. Roleplaying is great to spark the imagination, learn more language concepts than a lot of English courses. Or in combination with (1) move the game from house to house on a regular schedule.

4) Start a gaming club in the community, and try to get the school to provide space. Charge a small fee which will go to the school or some charity. Participate in the community itself and show that the roleplaying is a valid activity for youths.

Hmmm I've waffled ... may have wandered - hope it helps.


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## Sado (Sep 10, 2004)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Just to be on the safe side, I wouldn't let any of your players name their rogue "Black Leaf."




  

Anyone know where I can find a copy of that old religious tract? Haven't seen it in years, should be good for a laugh.


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## Laelithar_Starbourne (Sep 10, 2004)

I kinde have a weird perspective on this because growing up I was the kid at the table of adults. That was because my father was the DM though. One thing he did when playing the game with minors was to make sure to discuss it with all of the parents of the children before hand. If you can get their consent then things should cool down. Also be very carefull about which minors you let into the game. You are in a unique position to possibly enlighten some skeptics about the concept of role playing, use it to show the them the true beauty and recreational enjoyment of the game.


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## Sketchpad (Sep 10, 2004)

The gaming club idea is a great thing ... run an after-school gaming club in your class   Just hand out permission slips and offer parents to stop by and see what it's all about ... never know, you may get a few more players that way.  Do any of the kids have their own books?  Have they discussed things with their parents?  I know when I was a kid (I'm in my mid-30s now), I sat down with my Mom and Dad and had them play a quick game because they were concearned on the impact that gaming had on me (They were afraid that I was going to go psycho on them).  After playing a short session, they said: "That's it?!  That's all you do?!" and it was never a problem after that.  In my senior year, I joined up in a group that was primarily people in their late 20s/early 30s ... one of which, the GM, was a teacher.  I found that my parents trusted my decisions, but they also felt comfortable when we gamed at my house for a bit ... it gave them a chance to know more about the older group and confirmed that they could trust me ... Maybe try something like that?  Hope it helps and good luck


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## KnowTheToe (Sep 10, 2004)

Speaking as an X teacher, I would say you are crossing into very dangerous territory, but not suicidal.  Be very careful, get written permission form the parents, on the permission form explain briefly what the game is about.  It would be best to meet with all of the parents in person and have them sign the form then.

Meet in a public place if possible, if not think hard about cancelling your game.

You know as well as I that if your principal knows so do many other people.  The students are HS and not your students, so the HS pricipal probably knows as well as some if not all of the school board.  People usually don't stop their complaining after one call, especially when they already know the chain of command.

I am sorry you are going through this, but as a male teacher you know how perilous this can be.


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## sawbones (Sep 10, 2004)

As a physician and previous game store owner, I generally stuck to having underage players play in my group only when in a public area (luckily my own game store suited that purpose admirably.)

I would suggest when gaming with schoolkids from the school at which you teach that you consider the same, use the library, ask the local game store, see if the local leisure centre/rec centre/pool/ice rink has a public room. Sometimes a local pizza joint will suffice.

Fair, maybe not. Safe, absolutely

Such is the life when employed by the public.

Grant


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## dren (Sep 10, 2004)

Another few options: 

All gaming sessions should be open. Invite the parents (and anyone else) to come and watch a session. Have them learn just what you do.

Don't be private; be direct. Say, this is our hobby and this is what we like to do. Answer questions about it. Go to things like public or county fairs and have a small booth with books. Hold fundraising for charities. Make yourself a known commodity in the community. People tend to distrust things they don't know...so make yourself known. Once they know you, you will ne regarded as a bunch of nerds and geeks, rather than dangerous cultists spreading an "occult" message with an evil game.

Have other gamers, especially professionals, speak up. Whenever anyone does make a discouraging remark, invite them over to a game. Have the pastor, priest, minister, rabbis, police (or their volunteers), members of the military, local media, any writers or artists in the area. Have this list ready anytime someone makes a bad comment. Do the leg-work up front.

And, most importantly, DON"T DM or play. 

You can't be apart of the action with kids, especially in school. You can watch and help organize the group and their activities, but the game, at least in school should be focused exclusively on the kids. Your fun and enjoyment should take a back-seat to your responsibility in making sure they have the freedom to have fun. 

Yeah, I know this is probably not the kind of advice you want to hear, but, people will talk about an adult "playing" a game with kids. Life sucks and is sometimes unfair. If there's a chance you could get the boys banned from playing the game, or if you could lose your job, well, swallow your pride and give up the game, at least with the kids.


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## pogre (Sep 10, 2004)

I have a unique perspective here - I am a lawyer and a high school history teacher. I gave up my law practice to go into teaching and coaching. Still have a couple of near and dear clients and maintain the ole' law license, because you never know.

There is no question your principal did you a huge favor. Frankly, the vast majority of administrators would say "get those kids out of your game now."

That is my advice BTW - get those kids out of your game now. You know as well as I do parent complaints are what *drive* administrators. The impression of others in your school system that you are weird may not bother you, but politically that is not a solid position. When RIFs come down administrators make an effort to lose troublesome teachers. They change job descriptions or slide positions and unless you have a lot of tenure in the district you're on the outs.

Missouri unions are not as powerful as ours in Illinois, but you need to make your rep aware of the meeting with your principal via written letter. Create a paper trail to save any possible recourse you may choose to take later.

Finally, sadly, I must advise you to drop the kids from your game. I know when I was hurting for players a few years ago I was sorely tempted to allow some seniors to play in my campaign. Politically though, I knew it put me in a bad position. Picture yourself defending yourself before the school board - would they agree there is nothing strange about a teacher playing D&D with high school students? You know the answer - sad as it is. Be smart.


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## Umbra (Sep 10, 2004)

Be very careful.  It sounds like the powder keg is just that. Something that could blow up bad.

Perhaps you could play at the house of one of your younger players so their parents are 'supervising'.  Which parents carry the most influence in the community or the church?  They would be the best choice.

I also second a public place, especially if it's connected to the church.  Or is there any other youth organisations with a lot of local support you could use.  Or perhaps any other community organisation (i'm down under so don't know the US groups but I'm thinking of the Lions, or Rotary, etc.)

Another idea (but a bit of work), you could also have a fundraising games day for some local cause that gets people playing all sorts of games and include some rpg introductory sessions for anyone interested.
(someone beat me to the punch.  problem of trying to sneak a post in at work and getting interrupted   )


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## Aristotle (Sep 10, 2004)

I'm neither a lawyer nor a parent, so you could probably get better advice. D&D doesn't have nearly the bad reputation it once had and your principal sounds like he's fairly understanding. I'd suggest proposing a gaming club. Write up a proposal indicating its benefits (socialization with peers, creativity building, basic math and reading comprehension, whatever) and have the parents sign consent forms. To them it should be proposed as an afterschool activity where there kids can interact socially with adult supervision.

It'd be neat to be in a position to help form the next generation of gamers, and who knows... maybe some of their older siblings or even parents will take an interest and ask to get in on your home game.


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## swrushing (Sep 10, 2004)

Ok, i am not a parent nor a teacher if you discount occasional tutoring of college kids.

be practical. teachers are already under the gun as for conduct with studnets and when you weigh the two items "gaming with minors" and "teaching kids" there is no comparison. Risking the latter to keep the former is what i would call irresponsible. 

is it fair? nope. But this is a fight you can only lose and lose big.

cut your losses.


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## d20Dwarf (Sep 10, 2004)

I would cut the kids out of the game until they get written permission to play with you. I would also start a campaign of information within your district and community about roleplaying games. GAMA, www.gama.org , will be your biggest friend and ally in this.


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## Celtavian (Sep 10, 2004)

*re*

Damn, this is kind of sad. Teachers are no longer trusted around the students they teach even in small towns.


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## sjmiller (Sep 10, 2004)

You know, it is a pretty sad and disturbed society we live in when even the most innocuous of activities are seen as "a threat upon 'our' children."  It makes me sick that this is even an issue, let alone one where people are saying that you need to consult a lawyer!

If a parent of a minor involved in a game has a problem with it, then a responsible member of the game group (usually the DM, but no always) should have a talk with the parent.  You can find out what their concern is, and work out a sane and logical conclusion.  If someone has a problem with the game who is not related to any member of the game, I would seriously question their motives for their opposition.  I would also be tempted to tell them to mind their own bloody business.

I play in an Original D&D every week.  This games has been going on for over 20 years.  There are some players who are original players, and others who are brand new.  We range in age from 50 (The DM) to somewhere in their high teens.  I am one of the older players at 39.  One of the players is a high school teacher, and I (among other things) do volunteer work with a youth theater company.  Nobody involved in this game, from the teenagers right through us "old folk" have ever thought that we need to be careful, or that some parent might try and get us fired.

This is about as civil as I can get on the subject, so I will stop commenting here.


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## sjmiller (Sep 10, 2004)

Repeat post, sorry about that.  Nothing to see here, carry on...


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## Dwarven Godfather (Sep 10, 2004)

*My experience when I was younger in Missouri!!!*

Hey D20fool,
  My recommendations from the same experience is if Clinton has a Gaming shop, I highly recommend moving there. It's really good about the environment and would possibly help promote the games as well for the gaming store.
  I was 14 years old when I first started gaming and my mom was really worried about the late hours I was out and what I was doing until I invited her to come into the store and see what was going on and started talking to the store owners and other adults and the different games going on especially when I was gone all day Saturday from 10 a.m. until 1 or 2 a.m. in the morning on Sunday. I also talked to her about what she felt about it and she was very proud that I choose gaming over being out with some of my age friends getting drunk and driving as well. In fact, one of the store owners taught me how to drive when I came home from the service and we went up to Gen Con as a group.
  So recommend to your younger group and have the parents come and check out the game and let the parents know that it's a good investment for the kids to be gaming. It promotes social skills and helps out in everyday life as well with all the figuring going on in the game.


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## tarchon (Sep 10, 2004)

I think it might work better if you framed it in terms of a "game club."  They must have all sorts of stupid little clubs anyway, right?  People understand "club" a lot better than "gaming group."  When I was in chess club in HS, that often bled over into various other games, though never quite RPGs.
I agree about the public place though.
Now if you go to tournaments every once in a while, that'll really make it sound scholastic.  Competition makes anything sound like a red-blooded American activity.


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## Alzrius (Sep 10, 2004)

I'm no lawyer, nor parent, but I just wanted to echo what I thought was some good advice.

As a teacher in the high school, you should be able to sponsor after-school clubs, right? Just sponsor a Gaming Club at your school, and have it held after classes once a week or so. The fact that, as a club, it'd be announced daily with the other announcements might even draw in other students. The fact that its held in the school should (hopefully) be enough of a public place to dispel some of the suspicion parents may have about the game.


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## Herremann the Wise (Sep 10, 2004)

Hi d20fool,

Just a quick message to sympathise with your situation and wish you all the best, whatever the outcome.

I'm a Maths Tutor in my spare time and tutor in total 8 students of high school level currently. I insist on tutoring at their house at the dining table or somewhere equally "visible" and insist that a parent is somewhere around the house. I never tutor in their bedroom and never ever have tutored a student in my house although it would be far more convenient not driving all around a big city. The reason is very simple. I do not want there to ever be a time where my integrity could be questioned in this regard. People in our position simply cannot afford there to be even 99.99% surety. Only 100% will ever do.

This is unfair that I/We have to take such precautions but such is the world we live in. I think I would have to concur with most people here and suggest that you end the game sessions with these students. However, the damage may already be done if the parents still have a gripe.

Alternatively, you could keep going and just move the sessions to a public place. Maybe better could be playing at a student's house whose parents may be somewhat supportive of your gaming if possible. You will find that if you can have one set of parents stick up for you, it may go a long way.

Anyway, whatever happens best of luck.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise


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## herald (Sep 10, 2004)

Wasn't there a gamer's defence fund for legal issues and gaming? Perhaps these people might be able to advise.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 10, 2004)

My credentials:* I'm an attorney.  I used to live in Manhattan KS, so I understand the small-town mentality somewhat.  I have run RPGs with mixed age groups, including minors, and I used to run a game club at my private Catholic highschool.*

1)  From the CYA aspect, you cannot go wrong by kicking the kids out of the group.  It sucks, I know, but its true.  Small towns by their very natures tend to be more religious & more conservative than more metropolitan areas.  You may find yourself in a battle you can't win if the religious right think you're corrupting the youth.  You may find yourself the modern model of a Missourian Socrates.

That said, if you are willing to continue risking your job (I salute you if you do):

2)  You may try getting the group to run on school grounds immediately after school as an extracurricular event.  That MAY shield you somewhat.  To do so, you will either need permission slips or a student sponsor (to nominally head the group) depending on school rules.  Heck, getting permission slips is a good idea at any rate.

3)  Gaming in a public place will do much the same.  Pizza places are best- they tend to have good hours, lots of space, and don't mind rowdy groups.  Game stores are a good second place, but probably close pretty early, relative to a pizza parlor.

4)  See if one of your gamers' parents is willing to host the campaign.  When (on a Summer break from Law School) I taught some young teens (14 year olds) how to play D&D for the first time, I did it at my parents' house, and I had known one kid since birth.  But the fact that there were other adults around assuaged the concerns of the other parents.

5)  You may wish to alter your campaign somewhat.  I don't know how old your gamers are, but consider using your campaign as a teaching aid.  How?  Talk to your history colleages about famous battles (like Thermopylae, Agincourt or Gettysburgh) and important events, or even look at some of the great books of literature (like the _Illiad_) and alter them to fit your campaign.  When somebody asks you what you're doing, you'll be able to point out that you are putting those students into historical/literary immersive environments...especially if you include a reveal in your adventure wrap-ups.  By that I mean, you not only award XP, but tell your players what was behind the adventure, and how their actions compared to the real/literary events.

6)  Whatever you do, keep your campaign under tight control.  No evil PCs, not too racy, etc.  And I mean that even if you are forced to kick the kids out!  Since you teach 5th graders, anything in your campaign that smacks of the dark side may result in your getting canned as a bad influence.


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## hero4hire (Sep 10, 2004)

<sigh> Overall this saddens me. The current state of affairs in this country and the still bad rep D+D gets. 
I've been playing D+D since I was 7. My mom and her boyfriend bought those little pamphlets (Eldritch Wizardry, Blackmoor, etc.) They lost interest but I never did. My first actual gaming group and some of my fondest gaming memories was when I got to jr. high school. We had a D+D Club right in school ran by my English teacher Mr. Kirnie. We even had our picture in the yearbook. This was before the BIG D+D scare of course and such things got Universally banned.
D+D inspired me to read and look up words that I never would have seen or used otherwise. Introduced me to other religions, cultures, mythology. Got me interested in history, storytelling, performance arts, classical music. All of this might not be a big deal to some, but to a poor kid in a bad neighborhood. Well I may not have been exposed to those things otherwise. Also perhaps most important to me, it introduced me to concepts of honor, chivalry, and heroism. 28 years later I am a reasonably well adjusted guy, a father, the head of security of a 4 star hotel.

Now as a parent (of a now 7 year old) I had to take into consideration what level of exposure I gave my daughter to D+D. Gaming is fun and like all fun things can be highly addictive. D+D is also escapism. This combination can be dangerous to young minds. Addictive escapism...
Overall I didn't want D+D to be daddy's dirty little secret so I expose her and tell her about D+D and all things Fantasy. But I dont want her to play with me..."Why?" You might ask. "You played when you were 7." 
Yep I did..Those were different times gentle reader..As a 7 year old I could also walk around and play unsupervised. Something I would never let my daughter do.
D+D was also a different game back then. Almost comparable to how video games were much simpler back then. Overall she is also a much different kid then I was.

Now the kids you are playing with are local high school kids. Still minors but probably mature enough. Get parental permission, play in a public forum. That covers your @$$. As a teacher you do bear an added burden of being a role model to the community. You being the responsible supervising adult have to make sure your games are age appropriate and maybe even teach the kids a thing or two. 

The only way to stop D+D from being a weird, mysterious unknown, is to bring it back into the light of day!


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## Guilt Puppy (Sep 10, 2004)

I hate to say it, but if I were you, I'd ban minors from my gaming group as quickly and quietly as possible. If that meant I couldn't have a gaming group, so be it. There's always PbP, you know?

I know, it's not right or fair or anything like that, but sometimes pragmatism just has to prevail. If anyone files a formal complaint (and it sounds inevitable at this point, IMO), then you'll have a tough time keeping your career. _Very_ sad, but very true. I won't repeat what you already know and what people have already said about the ongoing witchhunt against teachers -- President Clinton had an easier time maintaining his privacy than most schoolteachers do.

Anyway, I'm all for taking a stand against injustice, but I wouldn't choose this one. People don't understand gaming well enough for it to be understood as a "stand," for one thing. For another, what's at stake (a hobby) versus what's at risk (a career) just isn't enough -- I've been without a RL gaming group for a while now (mainly because I can't hold down a job, place of residence, etc...  )... There are other options (I'm a massive fan of PbP myself, though it's hardly to everyone's taste), and even if none of them fit you, well... I'm assuming the being a teacher is far more important to you.

In short, let it go. It's not right, but it's not worth fighting over. Of course, that's just my opinion & judgment... If you choose to keep going, well, I respect your courage, and definitely wish you the best.


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## Host of Angels (Sep 10, 2004)

It saddens me to read this thread, for several ways. Firstly, that a society can live in such fear of itself that we are too scared to have fun. And secondly, while Britain (where I live) does suffer from the anti D&D lobby as the USA does, I can see things going this way here too. I am part of a gaming club in Leeds and as yet we have had no underage gamers join - but this thread has made me stop and think what we would do if a teenager wanted to join....

Anyhow - d20 Fool - good luck. I hope you manage to sort something out and do something positive for your community by making it work.


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## wedgeski (Sep 10, 2004)

I'm no expert either way but it seems to me you've been given the opportunity to save your career.  The best idea I've heard is to set up a gaming club, stand back as the secretary or admin of that club, and encourage the kids to play the game themselves. Even though your immediate problem (the size of your group) will then not be fixed, you'll still be able to vicariously play the game by organizing the kids to do so, which is better than nothing.

As I said, I don't really know what I'm talking about, but you asked.  Good luck!

(Oh, and this whole situation sucks.)


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## wedgeski (Sep 10, 2004)

Host of Angels said:
			
		

> It saddens me to read this thread, for several ways. Firstly, that a society can live in such fear of itself that we are too scared to have fun. And secondly, while Britain (where I live) does suffer from the anti D&D lobby as the USA does, I can see things going this way here too. I am part of a gaming club in Leeds and as yet we have had no underage gamers join - but this thread has made me stop and think what we would do if a teenager wanted to join....



As a fellow Brit I agree to a certain extent; the situation certainly is not as bad, and I also think there is the chance that D&D is becoming mainstream enough that it will never become endemic to the hobby over here. In any case, I think a lot of the advice given to d20 Fool applies to any club run by adults: for under-age members, seek parental consent and invite parental participation. It's the right thing to do for many reasons, not the least of which is simply running a responsible club.


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## Obfuscated (Sep 10, 2004)

In addition to all the other pointers given so far on this board (I won't recommend any one over the other, it's ultimately your decision to choose your fate)  I would recommend the news story found on this link*

D&D News Story

Be advised it's a huge 80+ MB zip file.  But it contains an awesome news clip about D&D and is in a totally positive light.  That might also alleviate some of the concerns people have over the 'wierdness' involved in gaming.  

-Me

*Please note this was first pointed out by Monte Cook on his website update for today.  Thanks Monte, you always find new things to make us gamers look good!


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## Magus Coeruleus (Sep 10, 2004)

Clearly the safest thing is to get rid of the kids in the game.  If you're willing to still accept some risk but want to minimize it, I agree with the others who have advocated a school club.  Also, a way to perhaps dilute the obsessive focus some paranoid parents may have on D&D, you can have the club be not a D&D club exclusively but a game club with board games, card games, RPGs, etc.  This way, D&D is just another game and not this cult...er club.  It might make it look less fishy to some.  If permission slips are normal for such extracurricular activities, by all means get them.  If not, it might seem a bit strange to request written permission for the kids to play D&D as part of a club that doesn't require it by school rules.  Still, in that case I would contact the parents of any kids with whom you want to play D&D by phone and discuss it to make sure they're okay with it.  I assume, by the way, that normally a teacher doesn't set up a club based on his/her interest, but rather sponsors one that a group of students wants.  So this school club idea is predicated on the assumption that there would be at least a small group of kids who actually want this, and not necessarily only kids who want to play D&D specifically and with you specifically.  I think a great situation would be one where you talk to some of your current student players, ask if they are interested in starting such a club with you as sponsor, and go from there.  Let them post flyers and have a meeting, and you just assist as teacher sponsors normally do.  They can get interested students to come and play all sorts of table-top games including but not limited to D&D.  Eventually, they can elect club officers and take care of business themselves.  Once it's a bit settled as a student-driven thing with you just being supportive, then you can go ahead and participate in some of the games.  Perhaps DM sometimes and play sometimes.  Play some of the other games, too, if you're so inclined.  Don't necessarily play every time the club meets.  Encourage the student members to also play at home or other places in games with other students but without you.  The point of all this is to show how benign this all is and, importantly, that *you are not the center of it all*. Not only is that good for not making parents suspicious, but frankly I think it's better for you and the students if you participate but are not indispensible to the group (except as the requisite teacher sponsor, although some other teacher could fill your shoes if necessary).  Again, if you want to be as safe as possible, nix gaming with the kids completely.  I think in your situation I'd go with the club, however, and take all steps to show how innocent it is and how much it has to do with the kids and not you per se.  One other thing--if you want to pursue an idea like this, I would run it by your principal first.  While he probably will want to cover his butt at all costs, including having to fire you, he's demonstrated that he is sympathetic and understanding.  I would trust him to give you a fair appraisal of how a school club for games would fare in this situation.


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## Magus Coeruleus (Sep 10, 2004)

One other thing:  if you dig the school club idea but not the all-sorts-of-games version, you could also go for a sci-fi/fantasy club to include books/stories, games, movies, etc.  It might give more reason for a paranoid parent to be concerned if they thing fantasy = Satanic, but it's another option.  Of course you could ask the students what they're more interested in!


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## FungiMuncher (Sep 10, 2004)

d20fool,

I sympathize for you.  I'm a teacher as well, and have had six different kids in my campaign at various times.  

Unfortunately, the worst part of the  experience you've described are the three phone calls your principal has already received.  If that had not have happened, my advice would be very different.  The rumor mill and politics surrounding a school can be vicious.

I suggest that you back away from the situation.  Close down the campaign, or at least the kids' participation in it, at least for now.  Ask around, and get some feedback from various community members.  Try to get yourself invested (even more so) into the community.  Try to get everyone to see that, while you may be a bit weird, you're still a good guy.  If that was the case originally, those phone calls wouldn't have happened.  

Once things settle a bit, you may be able to start something to include kids.  However, do it with some of the suggestions already offered - in a public space, with permission forms, etc.  Check out GAMA, too.

I could go on, but need to head off to work.  I'll check in later, and wish you the best.  

FM


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## Fester (Sep 10, 2004)

There's plenty of good advice here already.

I would certainly look to run it as an after school activity on the school premises and would almost certainly be looking to get another teacher on board, so that there were always two adults present.

Inviting children back to your home, no matter how innocent the intent, _is_ going to get you into trouble and once the whispers start, you need to do something quickly to make sure that they don't end up costing you your job.

Just my 2 cents worth.


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## kingpaul (Sep 10, 2004)

Sado said:
			
		

> Anyone know where I can find a copy of that old religious tract? Haven't seen it in years, should be good for a laugh.



http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp


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## kingpaul (Sep 10, 2004)

Another place for information would be The Escapist, a gaming advocacy site. The Committee For The Advancement Of RPG's is also a place for informaiton.


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## S'mon (Sep 10, 2004)

wedgeski said:
			
		

> I'm no expert either way but it seems to me you've been given the opportunity to save your career.  The best idea I've heard is to set up a gaming club, stand back as the secretary or admin of that club, and encourage the kids to play the game themselves. Even though your immediate problem (the size of your group) will then not be fixed, you'll still be able to vicariously play the game by organizing the kids to do so, which is better than nothing.




I agree that an official school games club played on school premises or another public space seems the way to go, if your Principal is happy with that.  There should probably be more than 1 game running at a time in the same room (maybe 1 board game & 1 RPG, or a couple different RPGs), preferably with 1 or more other teachers present, and with that proviso I don't necessarily see a problem with you running or playing in school games.  Or if you want to keep GMing for your adult non-teacher friends in a private game, it looks like the only solution, given that there's 'whispering' against you, is to boot the underage gamers.  Unfair, but that's life.


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## Hand of Evil (Sep 10, 2004)

A friend of mine does a release form.


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## Charles Dunwoody (Sep 10, 2004)

I'm actually surprised that you tried to do anything with minors without the knowledge of their parents. I have to back up the mom on this one. What you describe sounds creepy to me even though I love D&D.

I've been gaming for over twenty years. I've been a parent for two years. I don't leave my child with any adult, anywhere, unless I know about it and approve it. I don't care if it is to play D&D or to help out at a nursing home.

Frankly, I worry every day about whether my son is safe. That's my most important job and far outweighs the need of any DM for players.

As a teacher, you should set an example for kids. Children should always let their parents know where they are and who they are with, especially when with adults.

I love D&D but if I found out a teacher was DMing for my son without my knowledge I'd complain too. It is irresponsible.

I've volunteered for Junior Achievement, which is an organization that arranges for business people go into schools and present a business class to students. They have a strict policy: no instructor meets with any student outside of the class. Period. And I totally agree with that rule. Keeps the kids safe, and I'll always err on the side of the kids.

I think you need to go back to playing games with adults. Let kids play with other kids, their parents, or friends of their parents.


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## Host of Angels (Sep 10, 2004)

wedgeski said:
			
		

> As a fellow Brit I agree to a certain extent; the situation certainly is not as bad, and I also think there is the chance that D&D is becoming mainstream enough that it will never become endemic to the hobby over here. (clipped)




Let's just hope that it goes that way - I wish I shared your optimism...


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## Piratecat (Sep 10, 2004)

Yup, in your shoes I think I'd worry a lot less about what is fair in favor for making sure that all parents felt secure. To that end, I'd involve parents as much as possible and use both permission forms and public venues.


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## Psion (Sep 10, 2004)

Reminds me of high school...

One of our GMs... and a frequent host for Friday night games... was a library assistant in the high school I went to (she also let us use the library copier to copy Star Fleet Battles SSD  )

One time she related how she had been approached by someone in her family who advised her it was not a good idea to have sex with young boys. 

I guess someone had been leaping to conclusions about all the male visitors who visited her house every weekend.


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## Steel_Wind (Sep 10, 2004)

pogre said:
			
		

> I have a unique perspective here - I am a lawyer and a high school history teacher. I gave up my law practice to go into teaching and coaching. Still have a couple of near and dear clients and maintain the ole' law license, because you never know.
> 
> There is no question your principal did you a huge favor. Frankly, the vast majority of administrators would say "get those kids out of your game now."
> 
> ...




I'm not a teacher - but I am a lawyer, and the above was _excellent_ advice. Send him a cheque.

I know you did not want to hear that advice - but you should follow it.  Get the kids out of your game.  Or get out of your small town to a place where you can find more players so you don't have to do this.

He's right. Be smart.


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## WizarDru (Sep 10, 2004)

I'm not a lawyer, but I am a parent.  Take my ideas with a grain of salt.

 1.) _A Sanctioned Group_ - Establish a wider interest group, such as a Board Game Club or Tactics and Studies group, and fold D&D into it.  Putting D&D as just one game among many, and playing other games such as 'Ticket to Ride', for example, is a good way to contextualize the game.  Have the parents sign permission forms for membership.

 2.) _A Public Place_ - Limited hours are better than no hours at all.  In this age of sexual predators and drug dealers, parents are going to be reasonably suspicious of a teacher who meets his students out of school at his home.  You have to remember, you're not playing a game of all minors:  you're running a game with several other adults present.  It doesn't matter if you were playing D&D or teaching them to juggle: a parent who is concerned about their children's activities will be uncomfortable with that situation, if they don't personally know you.  I have three words for you that are certainly fresh in some parents' minds: _Mary Kay Letourneau_.


 3.) _Parental Involvement_ - Send information packets home to parents.  Invite them to attend and witness games.  Offer to hold a 'parent' information night.  Make the parents comfortable with you and the game in general.

 Personally, I think you need to segregate your games into two groups...minors and adults.  You need to approach them differently, and move forward differently.  Those parents may not be small-minded...they may just be cautious parents.  Either way, your situation make this a matter you should approach with some delicacy, IMHO.


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## diaglo (Sep 10, 2004)

i'm not a lawyer or parent. i'm a lab rat. i'll give you some advice my grandmother gave me.

don't s**t where you eat.

right or wrong. fraternization is a no no in some fields. the military still doesn't allow it.


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## Faerl'Elghinn (Sep 10, 2004)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Just to be on the safe side, I wouldn't let any of your players name their rogue "Black Leaf."


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## DungeonmasterCal (Sep 10, 2004)

I live in a small town compared to many, but here in Arkansas, it's a fairly decently sized city.  Recently I spoke to a teacher from one of the high schools who plays D&D (never caught his name, but we were standing in a bookstore discussing Eberron), and he was put on probation for running an after school D&D game.  He's even had to stop discussing his hobby with fellow teachers, because twice he's been called to his principal's office to explain his "obsession".

sigh......


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## vulcan_idic (Sep 10, 2004)

diaglo said:
			
		

> i'm not a lawyer or parent. i'm a lab rat. i'll give you some advice my grandmother gave me.
> 
> don't s**t where you eat.
> 
> right or wrong. fraternization is a no no in some fields. the military still doesn't allow it.




Diaglo is right on.  And as the military explains its strigency on this and many other rules - it's not just doing the wrong thing, but insuring, as much as possible, that there is no appearance or perception of something bad happening.  Be paranoid - just in case people *are* out to get you...  because soon or later someone probably will be.  (At least in these sorts of cases...  the whole "conspiracy theorists" take the idea well beyond rational if you ask me...  but that's a whole other kettle of fish)


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## scourger (Sep 10, 2004)

I'm an attorney, and I'll echo some of the advice given by other lawyers (and non-lawyers).  Quit gaming with these kids.  Period.  

If you feel you MUST do so, do it in a public place.  Find a game store or something as suggested.  But, be prepared for possible negative consequences in the community.

That's just the way it is.


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## Xath (Sep 10, 2004)

When I was in high school, I gamed at my Biology teacher's house quite a bit.  I think the main difference was, I gamed with his son, not with him.  I started gaming with a group of people who were 4 years older than I, so I was the only minor of the group.  I actually think my parents were more comfortable with me playing there than at any of the other houses, because they new my teacher through Back to School nights and the like.  

I have to agree though.  One of the things my parents did before I went anywhere new to game was to call the parents and talk to them for a bit, making sure they weren't crazy and ensuring that there would be adult supervision.  

I think it would be helpful just to talk to the parents, explain what you do, and invite them over for a session.


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## Alnag (Sep 10, 2004)

Oh my godness! I think, that although it is really a nice thing to invite students to gaming, it might be a problem in US. Here, in my country everybody would be more than pleased, especially parents, but that is a different culture.

Whatever you do, you should (may be) invite principal and or parents of theese kids to try the game (and probably not play something too dark/hack-and-slashing/etc.) to show them what is it about. A clever people will accept it, stupid one will burn you like a witch whatever you do. That is life!


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## sjmiller (Sep 10, 2004)

diaglo said:
			
		

> right or wrong. fraternization is a no no in some fields. the military still doesn't allow it.



 Just to clarify this a little, the military does not allow fraternization between a superior and a subordinent within a chain of command.  So, fraternization between you and your supervisor is a no-no.  Fraternization between you and someone in a different unit, not a problem.


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## Buttercup (Sep 10, 2004)

d20fool said:
			
		

> Any help here folks? What should my course of action be? Any lawyers in the house have advice for me?



My first piece of advice would be to stop gaming with minors that aren't the child of an adult already in the gaming group.  However, I suspect you don't want to do that, so the next best thing would be to play at the local public library.


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## Host of Angels (Sep 10, 2004)

I hear what is being said - and I fully understand the legal advice - but I do hope that this does not just end up with these kids being ejected from the group. I realise that we live in a litigious society, and the States more so than others, but surely if steps are taken to make the game public, open and responsible then everyone benefits. 

I'm no lawyer, neither a teacher, nor do I live in the States and my kids are both under 2 years of age - But I would see this rather than being a threat to be feared and run away from - but as a fantastic opportunity to set up a games club and encourage more people to participate in our hobby, even though they may be under the age of consent. I may take a pile of extra effort, but the community ends up with a fantastic resource - take Morrus and this site as an inspiration...


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## diaglo (Sep 10, 2004)

sjmiller said:
			
		

> Just to clarify this a little, the military does not allow fraternization between a superior and a subordinent within a chain of command.  So, fraternization between you and your supervisor is a no-no.  Fraternization between you and someone in a different unit, not a problem.





sorry if it wasn't too clear. the whole grandmotherly advice was part of the statement.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Sep 10, 2004)

Kravell said:
			
		

> I'm actually surprised that you tried to do anything with minors without the knowledge of their parents. I have to back up the mom on this one. What you describe sounds creepy to me even though I love D&D.
> 
> I've been gaming for over twenty years. I've been a parent for two years. I don't leave my child with any adult, anywhere, unless I know about it and approve it. I don't care if it is to play D&D or to help out at a nursing home.
> 
> ...




I'm in total agreement with this, as a parent and husband of a teacher.  

It is sad that teachers sometimes face unfair scrutiny, but unfortunately they are in a position to strongly influence children.  The facts of a small, but significant number of incidents around the country have created an awareness that parents cannot be as trusting as they used to be.  It is the parents responsibility to know what their children are doing and their right to decide if it is ok for their child.  It is your responsibility to help the parents do this if you wish to continue gaming with them.  A lot of good advice here.

Make sure you know the parents and they are ok with it.


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## billd91 (Sep 10, 2004)

Kravell said:
			
		

> I'm actually surprised that you tried to do anything with minors without the knowledge of their parents. I have to back up the mom on this one. What you describe sounds creepy to me even though I love D&D.
> 
> <snip>
> As a teacher, you should set an example for kids. Children should always let their parents know where they are and who they are with, especially when with adults.
> ...




Now, just a minute here. Who is at fault for the parent not knowing what the kids are doing? Is it the teacher's fault or the kids'? If the kids were being evasive about what they were doing at the teacher's place, they shouldn't have been evasive. That's not the teacher's fault. However, I can see it being a good idea in general to contact the parents DIRECTLY for permission for the kids to play rather than rely on notoriously irresponsible teenagers. That doesn't make it the teacher's fault or irresponsibility that the parents didn't know in the first place.

There should be no problem of an adult playing with minors or participating in any hobby from scouting to gaming to book clubs (with the obvious exception of illegal hobbies like pederasty, but you get the picture). But someone has to get the permission of the custodial parents whether it's the adult in the game or the kids. And to CYA, it had better be the adult being super-responsible by taking the responsibility for the kids.

For what it's worth, I have 2 kids and I am not a lawyer nor a teacher.


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## JesterPoet (Sep 10, 2004)

My response comes from experience.  Not as a teacher or parent, but as an adult who, as a kid, had a D&D group disbanded by an overprotective parent (and God knows, there's more of them now than there were in the 1980's... same number of psychos, just more overprotective parents) who didn't understand what was going on.

I'd kick the kids out of the group.  But I wouldn't end it there.  Don't just tell the kids, "You can't play any more, we have to put an age restriction on the group."  Instead, tell them *why* they can't play anymore.  Explain to them that there have been complaints from parents that the game is a bad influence, and that some parents don't trust that there isn't anything subversive going on.  Don't accuse anyone specifically, and, most importantly, no matter what, *refuse* to tell them whose parents complained... don't even tell them that the person isn't in the group anymore.  Make sure they leave wondering.  They will.  And they'll confront their parents.  

That's exactly what happened to my group when I was a kid.  We all went back and confronted our parents.  Nobody could figure out who did it, but we were all mad as hell.  None of us gave up gaming.  We're all still gamers, and we just found another way to participate in the hobby.  A lot of parents had their eyes opened by that.  Even my mother, who, I found out years later, was the one who complained.  She now totally supports not only this hobby, but everything I do, and has for years.  

It's true, this won't help you outside of covering your butt.  It'll still mean you lose your players.  But you'll help those kids.  I assure you.  Kids aren't stupid, and they don't like being told they can't do something "just because."  Especially when they know it's irrational.  Plus, it gives you a little stab back at the community, and helps bring overprotective parents down a notch, which, arguably, many of them need.

Good luck.



_Disclaimer: My mother is an awesome person.  Always has been.  Unfortunately I was born with OCS (only-child syndrome) so we suffered occasional incidents of overprotectiveness like the one mentioned above.  Everyone makes mistakes.  It was just nice to be able to point one out. _


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 10, 2004)

An ammendment to my (and others') advice about the school-ground game club:

Don't make it D&D specific, but DO ensure the kids aren't just goofing off.  Make sure the games have some kind of track record or other merit.  If you do try to go the "educational" route, you also have a unique opportunity to work with your math colleague to generate a new game system to teach statistics & game theory.  In fact, the club could be called the "Game Theory Club."

Two final things from me:

#1)  Absolutely let us know what your decision was and what happened.  Periodic updates might also be informative.

#2)  This thread needs to be archived or stickied.  Too much good advice to let slip away.


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## Greatwyrm (Sep 10, 2004)

I'm not a lawyer.  However, I grew up in a small town and I've got enough teachers in my family to start my own school.

If you value your job, cut the kids.  Small town politics is brutal and a mother like the one here, she has clones everywhere, can be a thorn in your side your entire career.  Every time you're up for a promotion, want an extra coaching job, or something like that, she'll make sure that these "suspicious" rumors pop back up.  If you haven't gotten tenure yet, it'll be even worse.

I know it stinks and I know it's stupid, but sometimes you have to be a closet gamer.


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## Varianor Abroad (Sep 10, 2004)

Not a lawyer. I am an insurance adjuster. I handle litigation against schools, among other policyholders. Both my parents are teachers and I almost got a teaching cert myself. There, credentials over.

If the principal told you not on school grounds or you lose your job, that's it. Period. You can't hold the game there. You are on legal notice that he's told you it's against school policy. Their policy carrier is now  potentially able to deny you a defense because your actions from this point forward are "intentional." Not to mention which, most of the allegations arising from this sort of circumstance are usually not covered by the educator's policy and you do not qualify as an additional insured. Unless you're individual educator's policy is paid up with Horace Mann, you're at risk to expose personal assets if there's a lawsuit over this. Because a civil suit can happen. Unlikely if you're in the Midwest, but not unheard of.

Sorry. It sucks.

Get a club started out of the school in a public place. Best you can do. And I'd write out a nice note to your underage players expressing your regret and telling them why they have to leave. Then stick to it. You may be able to salvage a little bit as club advisor to the underage kids, but they have to take over the DMs role. Then maybe they can rejoin your over 18 game in a few years if this turns out well.

Much as this pains me to write it, I see that this is a bad situation brewing. The sad part is that this is just another example of how teachers are held to higher, more stringent standards than parents to blame the teachers for the fears and shortcomings of their upbringing. 

Good luck to you.


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## Hunter Simon (Sep 10, 2004)

d20fool said:
			
		

> Any help here folks?  What should my course of action be?  Any lawyers in the house have advice for me?




I've been a high school teacher for 12 years.  I have to tell you that for any teacher to ask high school students over to his house is both extremely unwise and, frankly, unprofessional.

Playing D&D is not the issue here.  A teacher entertaining minors at home is the problem.


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## Macbeth (Sep 10, 2004)

I think there's so much good advice here that there's nothing more to say, and I really want to just say "that sucks" and wish you well.

But, Since I'm responding anyway, here's my advice.

I'd say go for making it a public club. Failing that, get complete parental consent and play at a public place, never at your house. Failing that, I think you have no choice but to drop the minors from your game. But if you do HAVE to drop them, make sure to send them off with some dice and continue to offer advice and support to them so they can run the game for themselves.


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## Xath (Sep 10, 2004)

Hunter Simon said:
			
		

> I've been a high school teacher for 12 years.  I have to tell you that for any teacher to ask high school students over to his house is both extremely unwise and, frankly, unprofessional.
> 
> Playing D&D is not the issue here.  A teacher entertaining minors at home is the problem.




Why?  It's one thing if these are his students, it's another thing if they are friends with a disparity in age.  Teachers are people too, they have as much right to have friends over as anyone else.  In small town communities especially, it can be difficult to find a group of gamers within your immediate age range.    I think what we have here is a case of OPS (overprotective parent syndrome).  Having grown up in an ops environment, I can tell you that alot of advice in this thread is applicabe.  Have the parents over.  Explain to them what is going on.  You may even want to rotate the gaming venue.  If everyone takes turns hosting sessions, you give the parents an opportunity to witness, not only what goes on in a game, but how their children are interacting with their peers and other age groups.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Sep 10, 2004)

I know a guy who is a teacher in a Missouri grade school.   He has said that on no occasion will he, or the other male teachers, touch the children.  No pats on the back, no hug if the kid scrapes the hell out of his knee or needs some kind of comfort, nothing at all.  He says there have been too many accusations against other male teachers to even risk the chance some parent will decide that a pat on the shoulder is bad touching.  That kind of sucks but I can't blame him.  

I'd stop gaming with students if I was you.  It's asking for trouble IMO.


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## Woas (Sep 10, 2004)

Maybe you could try making a gaming club at the school that is sanctioned by the school as an actual club or whatever. Clubs like that are always looking for a teacher to head it.


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## Hunter Simon (Sep 10, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> Why?




Because of problems like that one we're discussing in this thread.

And if the only friends you can find are teenagers, there's something wrong.


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## Hunter Simon (Sep 10, 2004)

Xath said:
			
		

> Why? Teachers are people too, they have as much right to have friends over as anyone else




Because of problems like that one we're discussing in this thread. It's the world we live in.  You can pontificate all you want about the way things *should* be, but that doesn't help people like the original poster.

And if the only friends you can find are teenagers, there's something seriously wrong that has nothing to do with gaming.

I'm 33 years old, and believe it or not, I don't *need* to game with teens.  I have friends my own age. So it doesn't need to be an issue anyway.


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## smetzger (Sep 10, 2004)

1) If you are not good friends with all of the parents I would definantly play in a public place.  If you don't its way to easy to set yourself up for a nasty acusation that will not just ruin your job but your whole life.

2) Given that you will most likely be playing in a public place, why don't you make it an after school club?  This gives it legitimacy, a set of rules to follow, and a bit more protection for you if you follow those rules.

3) You could also make it a father-son excercise.  Kids can't play unless their father (or mom) comes along to play.

Take it from the parents perspective.  As a father I would definantly look into any activity my teenage kids were participating in; especially if they were doing something with an adult in a private residence.

Xath, its not being overprotective.  It can only take one encounter with drugs or a pedophile to ruin a persons life.


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## Mallus (Sep 10, 2004)

Hunter Simon said:
			
		

> And if the only friends you can find are teenagers, there's something wrong.



First off, I agree w/the prevailing wisdom expressed here. Fraternizing w/students off school grounds isn't worth it in the current climate here...

Maybe the guy just likes sharing his entheusiasm for the hobby. Maybe he's doing a bit of mentoring as well as just throwing dice --I'm sure everyone on these boards can atest to how D&D stimulates a wide array of academic interests. Seems teacherly...

Suggesting the guy is some kind of social maladjust is mean.


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## Hunter Simon (Sep 10, 2004)

Mallus said:
			
		

> Suggesting the guy is some kind of social maladjust is mean.




I wasn't trying to imply that (although I realize that it came across that way   ).  

What I *was* saying is that if a person in his 30s cannot make friends his own age and thus has to hang out with teens, then something *is* wrong. I was not, however, saying that this is the case with the original poster; in fact, the original poster made it clear that he has many friends his own age he games with.


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## Mallus (Sep 10, 2004)

Hunter Simon said:
			
		

> I wasn't trying to imply that (although I realize that it came across that way   ).



No worries. I took it more than a little personally. 

I was introduced to D&D --a long time ago-- by a friend whose father was also my calculus/philosphy/and intro poly-sci teacher in high school [don't ask, it was a tiny private school in NJ]. The dad woound up taking over the game and became our DM for years. Not the same situation, I became friends with a teacher through his son, but still...

I know good advice was given here, but it infuriates me that it looks like what we've got is the end of mentoring. The end of one generation helping another outisde of strictly institutional environments, or familial lines. I learned a great deal from my friends dad, his interests were outside the scope of my family's, and the unproffesional, and personal, space he provided at his home --hell, his friend's homes; we used to join his adult circle of friends for dinner and board games on Sat. evening-- was just nice. No predation, no illicit drugs. For those I could thank some of my other, age-equilavent high-school friends....

Wow, I can't imagine who'd put their head on block and volunteer for Big Brothers/Big Sisters any more... 

Am I making too much of this? It seems we're all so interested in being _professional_ and more importantly _safe from litigation_ that there's less room just to be people...

Well, wistful, angry semi-rant mode off. Back to coding...


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## tarchon (Sep 10, 2004)

Mallus said:
			
		

> Wow, I can't imagine who'd put their head on block and volunteer for Big Brothers/Big Sisters any more...



I have a friend who does that - getting qualified was comparable to getting a low-grade US security clearance.


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## Taluron (Sep 10, 2004)

http://www.rpg.net/sites/252/quellen/sources.html 
lists quite a few references on gaming education/infomation.

As to advice I leave that to everyone else.


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## tonym (Sep 10, 2004)

Recruit at least ONE girl into the game, if not more.  A girl at the table changes EVERYTHING in many parent's eyes, I think. 

PARENT: He's a pervert!  He plays with boys!
CHILD: There's a GIRL there, too!
PARENT: Oh.  Pick you up t 6:30.

I hope you stick it out.  Maybe change the name of the gathering to CHESS CLUB or something, meet at school, recruit a girl, and everything should be fine, I think.



Tony


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## Greatwyrm (Sep 10, 2004)

Hunter Simon said:
			
		

> What I *was* saying is that if a person in his 30s cannot make friends his own age and thus has to hang out with teens, then something *is* wrong.




But look at it from the kids' point of view.  When I was in high school, I always got along better witht the teachers and adults than the other kids I went to school with.  It wouldn't surprise me if there were other kids in the same situation.


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## Mallus (Sep 10, 2004)

tarchon said:
			
		

> I have a friend who does that - getting qualified was comparable to getting a low-grade US security clearance.



Yeah, my ex tried to volunteer... got so angry/frustrated w/the application process she decided to become more involved with her church instead.


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## d20Dwarf (Sep 10, 2004)

Greatwyrm said:
			
		

> But look at it from the kids' point of view. When I was in high school, I always got along better witht the teachers and adults than the other kids I went to school with. It wouldn't surprise me if there were other kids in the same situation.



Yes, but teachers shouldn't have students over to *their* house alone, it's simply not a good policy. I liked my teachers, would hang in their rooms after school sometimes, and did a lot of extracurriculars just because I liked the sponsors. But *anytime* we had an out-of-school function, it was always held at one of the students' houses, not the teacher's. That's one alternative solution for the original poster is to try to play at the house of one of the players. That would be much better, especially if the student's parents were going to be home during game time.


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## Hunter Simon (Sep 10, 2004)

tonym said:
			
		

> Recruit at least ONE girl into the game, if not more.  A girl at the table changes EVERYTHING in many parent's eyes, I think.
> 
> PARENT: He's a pervert!  He plays with boys!
> CHILD: There's a GIRL there, too!
> PARENT: Oh.  Pick you up t 6:30.




Yep, that's solid advice.  Ask teenage *girls* over to your house, and no one will be bothered.


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## Carpe DM (Sep 10, 2004)

Bad situation.

Don't game with the kids.  Tell them why.  You can't afford to have your job and your reputation threatened over something like this.  Your principal won't back you up -- he as much as told you so.  So you have to make the hard, practical decision.  Kick all the kids out of the campaign, period, and tell them whose fault it is.

Carpe


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## RSKennan (Sep 10, 2004)

All things being neutral, I'd probably have a *big* propblem with my son gaming with a much older person as a minor. Unless I knew the person like a brother/sister, I'd have to wonder why they wanted to play with a kid. no matter what they said, it would still be in the back of my mind, and I'd dissallow my son from taking part without me or another adult I seriously trusted.  I don't see any other way to be a good parent in this situation. 

The trouble is, there really are bad people out there (maybe not in the numbers many would have us believe), and the ones who have a thing for kids _*go where the kids are * _. I'd have no malice for the person who invited my son to play, but I wouldn't invite the possibility of trouble. Strangers are strangers, even if they share the same hobby as me. 

To the original poster, I say divorce yourself from this situation. Educate them afterwards, so you don't have to deal with rumors 10 years from now about how you "used to do evil rituals with kids until you got caught". The appearance of impropriety can devastate your career and life in that town just as easily as actual impropriety could.


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## Hunter Simon (Sep 10, 2004)

RSKennan said:
			
		

> All things being neutral, I'd probably have a *big* propblem with my son gaming with a much older person as a minor. Unless I knew the person like a brother/sister, I'd have to wonder why they wanted to play with a kid. no matter what they said, it would still be in the back of my mind, and I'd dissallow my son from taking part without me or another adult I seriously trusted.  I don't see any other way to be a good parent in this situation.
> 
> The trouble is, there really are bad people out there (maybe not in the numbers many would have us believe), and the ones who have a thing for kids _*go where the kids are * _. I'd have no malice for the person who invited my son to play, but I wouldn't invite the possibility of trouble. Strangers are strangers, even if they share the same hobby as me.




As a fellow parent, I salute you for stating things so eloquently.  

I suspect that the people in this thread who have said, "What's the big friggin' deal? Stupid over-protective parents!" are probably university students who have no idea what it is like to actually *be* a parent.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Sep 10, 2004)

I’m not a teacher but I am a professional journalist who covers schools – elementary, middle and high school – as part of my regular beat.

d20fool, you dancing of think ice and are hearing cracking sounds – avoid this before it becomes a problem that could kill your career. Far too many people are reactionary in general and seem to enjoy becoming volatile over minor issues. This is even truer for parents about their children.

Stop inviting *any* students to your house or you will be targeted by people who, through ignorance or design, will misrepresent you, what you are doing and the D&D game.

This has nothing to do with true or lies. This has nothing to do with right and wrong. This has everything to do with people – who are too easily led by their emotions – reacting to children playing a game with a dubious reputation with a much older man in an apparently unsupervised environment. Off hand, I can not think of a more effective way to push the buttons of a community.

Further, as a journalist I can tell you this is the kind of thing all too many reporters pray to fall into their laps. It’s what I call a “mayhem” story – something is happening that will offend people and will therefore sell papers. If reporters show up, it will *not* be to make you, or what you have been doing, look good.

Stop inviting *any* kids to your house and keep quite about this in your school environment. If asked, tell them you changed your mind and the kids need to do something like try out for the basketball team or work harder to join the BETA club. Then change the subject.


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## RSKennan (Sep 10, 2004)

Hunter Simon said:
			
		

> As a fellow parent, I salute you for stating things so eloquently.
> 
> I suspect that the people in this thread who have said, "What's the big friggin' deal? Stupid over-protective parents!" are probably university students who have no idea what it is like to actually *be* a parent.




I hear you.  I'd probably have been in their camp about 6 years ago. The world can be a dangerous place, and it's not being overprotective to cover the bases.


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## Buttercup (Sep 10, 2004)

RSKennan said:
			
		

> All things being neutral, I'd probably have a *big* propblem with my son gaming with a much older person as a minor. Unless I knew the person like a brother/sister, I'd have to wonder why they wanted to play with a kid. no matter what they said, it would still be in the back of my mind, and I'd dissallow my son from taking part without me or another adult I seriously trusted. I don't see any other way to be a good parent in this situation.



I'd feel the same way.



> The trouble is, there really are bad people out there (maybe not in the numbers many would have us believe), and the ones who have a thing for kids _*go where the kids are *_. I'd have no malice for the person who invited my son to play, but I wouldn't invite the possibility of trouble. Strangers are strangers, even if they share the same hobby as me.



This is so true. As a public librarian, I've seen pedophiles hanging around the kiddie section of the library on more than one occasion. And that's a public place. 

So as a parent, my take on this situation would be that even if the DM is fine, some of the other players are adults, and who knows if they're all on the up-and-up.  It's just too dangerous.


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## Mark Chance (Sep 10, 2004)

Just to throw my pennies in: I'm a teacher and a parent. One thing I strive to get my students to understand is this: "I am friendly. I can be trusted. I am knowledgeable and devoted. *But*, I am not going to be any child's bestest friend. We're not hanging out at the mall together. We're not going to birthday parties together. I am an adult, and you are not. There are boundaries that *must* be respected."

My students have no business in my home or in my gaming group. If they want to game, they can game with their own friends away from me and mine.


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## CrusadeDave (Sep 10, 2004)

*My .02$*

I am a volunteer at a local Youth Group. A gaming group somehow formed out a chunk of the volunteers, that I DM.  One of the Youth's dad actually worked as a Manager at the FLGS in town, and eventually, asked me if I wanted to join his new group. I declined, explaining that I already have a group I plan in, and a group that I run.

Eventually, The son of the FLGS employee blabbed to other members of the youth group. A couple of people asked if they could join our group.

Even though I trust the parents and youth completely, my answer was this: 
Not until you turn 18. Not until you graduate from High School. And if it ever becomes a problem or issue with your parents or anyone at the Church, it's over. So I made them wait 10 months. Just to be safe.  

Forget gaming in public places. If they're under 18 and their parents aren't in the group, boot them. You can encourage them to start their own game, or even join the RPGA, and point them towards all the local Game Days and Conventions in the area, if you really don't want to leave the members out to dry when you boot them.

But you have to boot them.


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## Harlock (Sep 11, 2004)

My wife is a High School teacher as well as a gamer.  She has had students interested in joining our group in the past, but the rule was always not until they graduated to avoid just such complicated issues as accusation of impropriety in our choice of game, favoritism, or any number of the crackpot mom's that live here in the Bible Belt.  Such is life.  No sense risking too much over a game, in my opinion.


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## Hunter Simon (Sep 11, 2004)

Harlock said:
			
		

> or any number of the crackpot mom's that live here in the Bible Belt.




Well, they're either crackpots, or they're people who have different beliefs from you.  Remember that thing called "tolerance"? If we only tolerate people who happen to be like us, we aren't being tolerant.  Everyone deserves respect and dignity--even "crackpots" from the Bible belt.   

[Steps down off soap box.]


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## Alan Shutko (Sep 11, 2004)

I find it sad that society has become so paranoid (or perhaps just so sensationalistic) that the best advice for a teacher is to have as little contact with his students as possible.  And that the few problems are publicized so much that anyone who wants to spend any time with children (who often make the best teachers) are immediately under suspicion.  The history of education shows that the various fads that keep cycling (phonics vs. whole word, open plan, charter schools) have essentially the same chances of success, and the only way to truly improve schools is to find teachers who can engage and excite their pupils.  But if one does so, he or she is more likely to be doubted.

At least those people who fall into teaching because they have control complexes or are unsuitable for any other career are safe.  

It's true, there are dangers... but I can't help feeling that the cost is too high.

(Disclaimer: I don't have children.)


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## Steel_Wind (Sep 11, 2004)

Hunter Simon said:
			
		

> Well, they're either crackpots, or they're people who have different beliefs from you.  Remember that thing called "tolerance"? If we only tolerate people who happen to be like us, we aren't being tolerant.  Everyone deserves respect and dignity--even "crackpots" from the Bible belt.
> 
> [Steps down off soap box.]




Those who espouse intolerance in the guise of religion (or even genuinely in pursuit of same) are not deserving of my respect - and will not get it.


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## Wikid Klown (Sep 11, 2004)

Ok, I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet (I haven't read every post), but one of my players, his mom and older brother are gamers, and they fought the school corporation on the matter. They had a list of about 2 pages of things that RPG's like DnD had to do with academics (math, cartography, ect...). I'm not sure if it would work, but it's worth a shot? Even still, you should get the parents concent, meet with the parents, become "friends" if you will, gain their trust (but that depends on how big 1/3 of the group is, my groups are me and 3 other people at most). I doubt the libraries will allow it (they won't here, and I'm in a small town in Indiana), but anything's worth a shot. I also agree with the main post, keeping teens (I'm one by the way) away from the crap like that, the stuff our parents don't want us doin....I mean, come on. If I were a parent, I'd be happy somebody would be keepin my kid outta trouble,    hell    I'd encourage it. I think it's fun, so do a lot of other people...(that and my math grades have gone up since I've started playing). I've spoke what I will, I'm out.


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## d20fool (Sep 11, 2004)

*Thank you for your support!*

What a wealth of responses!  I thank the gaming community for their support in this matter, five pages is quite a bit.  There are no new developments, which is good.  No news is good news, so the saying goes.

There has been A LOT of talk about doing some sort of gaming group.  I have to nix that one.  If I'm being accused of "luring" students into D&D, I don't think starting a gaming club will help.  In fact I think it would hurt

Moreover, I ruled out that idea a long time ago.  I play D&D to get away, playing it in my classroom or the school library would definately not be getting away. 

There seems to be some confusion, I am not inviting "my students" to play.  I teach elementary, these are high school kids.  Also, the games don't actually happen at my house, but in a converted second garage at my mother's house (formerly a poker room.)  This is probably worse than playing at my house, as it is so very secluded.  It is also PERFECT for gaming and I refuse to give it up.  I've played in public places and except for conventions I hate it, .

I agree that not discussing matters directly with parents may have been bad policy and may have avoided this mess.  An oversight on my part and irresponsible, yes.

I also agree that the smartest thing is to disallow any minors from my game.  It is the simplest move that solves all problems.  In fact, since the other kid's mom (the lead whisperer in the whisper campaign) has gone pyscho, there is one regular player who is a minor.

But I have to look at that kid and ask, "Does he or does he not deserve to play?"  My gut says yes.  I'm not doing anything wrong, I'm providing a social, intellectually stimulating and creative activity.  I have as much right to teach the game to a younger generation as anyone, and he has the right to play it.  Mostly, I'm Irish and refuse to give up or live in fear of yet another group of parents who think they can run the town with a few phone calls.  So this is my plan:

Permission slips with long exposition about what D&D is and what we are doing, along with a copy of my rules (which were already in place.)   This is crafted to show that D&D is a valuable pasttime and that I have a structured environment.  I've included the text below, and would appreciate some pointers and feedback.

I will contact my union rep, GAMA, the Escapist and CAR-PGA for advice and to feel out my support level.  I thank the legal contributors to this thread for their contributions (even if I am not taking their advice.)

Here is the permission form

What is this permission slip about?

Your child has asked to play Dungeons and Dragons with my gaming group.  Whenever a minor asks to play, I require a permission slip from his or her parents so that parents are aware and give consent to their children’s activities.  
	My gaming group is completely transparent, if you wish to observe us play at any time, or arrange to record a session via audio or videotape, you are most welcome to do so.  I have been playing Dungeons and Dragons for over 20 years and it is definitely my hobby.  Players range in age from 10 to over 50, but my group varies from high school upperclassmen to early thirties.  Many may consider this age spread odd, but it is very common for many hobbies, such as watching NASCAR, playing golf, or playing fantasy football.  Many of my game seesions are also sanctioned by the RPGA, the Role Playing Gamers Association.
	I hold games in a converted garage room that used to be used as a poker room by it’s former owner.  This is at my mother’s house at 555 5th St and the phone number is 885-5555 there.  My phone number is 890-5555 and my e-mail is jmccarty@clinton.k12.mo.us if you have any questions.

About Dungeons and Dragons

Dungeons and Dragons is an exciting, intellectually stimulating game that has been in constant print for 30 years now.  The game evolved out of historical wargames, a pursuit begun by writer H.G.Wells.  It has a lot of influence from Oxford professor J.R.R. Tolkien of Lord of the Rings fame and world-famous Christian C. S. Lewis, writer of the Chronicles of Narnia.  
The game consists of a cooperative storytelling between the players and the Dungeon Master, who serves as the game’s referee.  At no time do players physically try to accomplish what their characters or doing, they simply roll dice to determine results of their efforts.  It is a social, creative activity that players enjoy.  The atmosphere around a gaming table is very much like a game of poker but without the gambling.
Sadly, there is a considerable amount of misinformation about Dungeons and Dragons out there.  Like most bad rumors and urban legends, these have waned without any proof to back them up.  If you have individual concerns please feel free to contact me.  Also, a FAQ can be found online here: http://members.aol.com/waltonwj/faq_myths.htm
I will say that the game is very academic and intellectual as well as creative.  The rule books are written on a high reading level, there is a considerable amount of mathematics to master and sessions allows a supportive environment for even the meekest individual to express themselves freely.  Research has shown gaming to help people work through emotional issues, prevent suicidal behavior (contrary to myth) and that gamers are less likely than their peers to commit crimes and are more likely to get a college education.  I have personally played with a doctorate working on cancer research, many teachers and graduate students, and even a retired Baptist minister.  As a parent, I hope that my children take an interest in Dungeons and Dragons when they are older.  I would rather see them playing D&D than any of the five dozen ways minors can get into trouble these days.

Permission

I __________________________(print name) give my permission to my child/ward __________________ (print child’s name) to play Dungeons and Dragons.

Signed________________________________________Date:___________________________

My rules for my gaming group are on the reverse side.
Rules for the Room 
Ø		Ø	Please moderate your language.  An occasional colorful metaphor is one thing, but I do not tolerate any name calling, racist or bigoted language.
Ø		Ø	You can use the microwave and refrigerator as you wish, just clean up your mess.  No food is provided, you must bring your own. 
Ø		Ø	No drugs, alcohol, tobacco, or weapons are allowed, if that wasn’t obvious already.
Rules for Playing 
	Ø	The object is to have fun.  Make sure you are playing in a style and manner that is fun for you and for others. 
	Ø	Keep the letter and the spirit of the rules.  No rules lawyers, no game weasels, and no min/maxing munchkins!  I’ve booted them before and I’ll boot them again. 
	Ø	Role-playing is expected.  Be sure to talk in character, refer to characters instead of players, and describe your actions above “I make a roll.”  This is not a video game. 
	Ø	Character conflict is OK, character combat is not.  Settle character disputes without sword or spell. 
	Ø	Play seriously, have fun.  Do both at the same time. 
Rules for Entering the House  
	Ø	This is my MOTHER’S house, please act accordingly.  You can use the potty or get a drink of water.
	Ø	Be sure to look presentable.  Would you want a dirty stranger entering your home and using the bathroom? 
	Ø	Be polite, make eye contact and don’t mumble
	Ø	Seat down, wash your hands, no pee on the seat, you know the drill.

_This version has phone numbers and addresses altered_


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## Edgewood (Sep 11, 2004)

I'm a parent of a 3 year old and I'm in training to become a police officer.

I know that some people may think that this is an issue of "playing D&D with minors" but it goes beyond that. I peronally think that if you're inviting students over to play chess you would be plagued with the same suspicion. It boils down to perception, and in this case, it's what the community perceives that matters here.

Drop the kids out of your game and stick with those of closer to your own age. You have a responsibility to your job which, although may be a burden at times, cannot be mixed with your hobby.

The best way not to drown is to not be in the water to begin with.

Good luck, I hope this works out for you in the end.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 11, 2004)

Some more spare change from the legal community...

1)  If you look back at the past couple of years, you'll see that even college professors and coaches have lost or nearly lost their jobs because of fraternizing with students.  You are, economically speaking, more fungible than a college level teacher or coach.  And remember, rationality is in short ration these days when it comes to kids & teachers.  In the past couple of years, we have even had a teacher forced to resign *because she gave an "F" to students she caught cheating* because "concerned parents" felt she had irreperably damaged their kids' self-esteem.

2)  I *STRONGLY* reiterate my urging you game in a public place.  I know-there are plenty of hobbies out there in which the very young and adults (even teachers) freely intermingle- radio control vehicles & robots, model trains, martial arts classes, target shooting, etc.- all without major parental concern.  But most of them do not have a past history of religious based/parental villification, unjust though it is.  Other hobbies that had that kind of parental attack took years to recover, like the comic book industry in the 1950's-several companies went bankrupt.  RPGs/Wargames have not fully recovered from the "Mazes & Monsters" mentality & misperceptions of the late 1970's to the late 1980's.  We are still considered a fringe hobby.  Combine that history with the current fears about pedophiles, the secluded location, a small town, possible religious backlash (Missouri has a large population of Mormons and conservative Christians for a state outside of the Bible Belt)- and your private gaming getaway may wind up getting raided if there is even a WHIFF of immorality, real or imagined.

3) I like your permission slip.  However, given your environment, I would say that you should see if your fellow gamers might not mind being included by name on it.  If they are pillars of the community in any way, that will alleviate the concerns of some parents.

I would seperate the permission slip and the "about D&D" sections into 2 seperate documents.  Combining the permission slip with a "political tract" might turn people off, if only because of the clutter.  If you do seperate the two, the D&D info sheet is where you would include the list of other group members.

Drop the "Rules for Playing" from the reverse and just distribute or post them at your game.  It contains too many gaming terms that may confuse a concerned parent, and a confused, concerned parent can quickly become a complaining concerned parent.  The "Rules of the Room/Rules for entering the house" are fine, but just combine them into one list.

Best of luck, and keep us informed!


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## Saqhara (Sep 11, 2004)

Buttercup said:
			
		

> <Snip>
> As a public librarian, I've seen pedophiles hanging around the kiddie section of the library on more than one occasion. And that's a public place.
> <Snip>




How did you know they were pedophiles, were they holding signs? I am not making light of this at all but your statement seems to be as judgemental as the parent who complained to d20 fool's principal. As a person that has written an as yet unpublished children's book I spent time at my local library and book stores doing research on just what I would be competing against. Does that make me a pedophile as well?

Although I feel terribly for d20 fool due to what's happened to him for just wanting to play a game with like minded individuals, not to mention being a positive role-model for those kids I would advise him (strongly) to not have minors at his games anymore. Perhaps that child's mother started causing trouble just to show her kid what she could do, that she has real power to ruin someone else's live and she should therefore be obeyed. It would seem that d20 fool has already had a taste of what an ill-informed person with a grudge can do. If you want to game with minors do it in a public place, in a public club open to full scrutiny, and with games as benign as chess and monopoly. There are lots of lunatic zealots like Jack Chick in the world and they have lots of followers. Be very careful and very transparent.

I grew up, along with my brother, in a single parent home. If it weren't for some of my teachers that were there for me as mentors, who went far beyond the other teachers, I could very well be like some of the burn-outs I went to school with. I know of several of my teachers that played D&D and I really wanted to play with them but all they could do was sponsor the school clubs. It's a shame really, but I do understand why. I just feel so badly for the kids like me who will get left behind because a simple pat on the back could mean the wrong thing to some misguided parent, or colleague, or grudge bearing individual. For all that teachers do for our society we sure treat them like crap....


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## d20Dwarf (Sep 11, 2004)

I just thought I'd point out that your permission form will in no way indemnify you from prosecution for crimes, real or imagined.

I must admit, your complete unwillingness to change your habits is a little disturbing.


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## Sparky (Sep 11, 2004)

I would also add that the tone of the slip, while well-intentioned, seems a bit defensive and soap-boxy. Consider that some of the parents who see these slips may not know of any controversy - so there's no need to defend anything. Simply, and unemotionally, state what you provide (creative social environment that promotes collaborative storytelling and quick, creative problem solving), what environment it is provided in (a drug, tobacco and alcohol free one) and that the most important thing that you want is for the parents of minors to feel comfortable with their children's activities. Offer your number for further contact. Offer to let them see the gaming space. Offer to let them sit in on a session.

There isn't any reason for a concerned parent to believe any of the claims you make about the merits of RPGs.

If I were trying to reassure parents I wouldn't mention these things (even in contrast): Suicide... Poker... Urban Legends (tantamount to calling them dupes)... an even indirect mention of the other things kids can do to get into trouble.

Parents have a legitimate stake in questioning their children's hobbies and the tone of some of the latter sentences is close to calling them dumb for not identifying RPGs as a safe and healthy. Or could be taken as such by an uninitiated, uninformed or simply concerned parent.

Be unemotional.

As many have said, you're not defending yourself or D&D, but offering to open the mysterious game up to parents so that they can choose, based on their own judgement, if it is something they think their children should participate in. Don't tell them how safe and healthy and cool and un-suicidifying and doctorate-making D&D is - of course you would say that 'luring' Dungeon Master that you are (facetious).  It is unlikely they will believe you. It think the first offer to let them sit in a session is the best one.

The RPGA is unlikely to register as anything important, noteworthy or reassuring to folks who do not know the hobby or take a dim view of the hobby.

There's so much positive in D&D. Focus on that - collaborative, creative and analytical storytelling in a safe, drug-free social setting.

But, really, you would be best off to not have minors in your group. Especially if you refuse to have your sessions in any place except this Poker room (another thing I would skip mentioning. Call it a Game Room, Rec Room... all better and less... seedy).

I also agree that the Rules of Conduct should stay... the language, demeanor, no-illicit-substances... etc. And that the GAME RULES should go. They're confusing and I think potentially freaky to non-gamers. I would also say 'please' on the latter Rules of the House... Please make eye contact and don't mumble. Please leave the bathroom neat and wash your hands before returning to the table. Please just seems... polite. I mean, maybe older teenage boys respond better to being told what to do, but I can see parents liking a more formal code of conduct. I also don't really want to think too much about men and toilet seats. Ick.

This is all over the place, I hope that you take it in the constructive way that I mean it and apologize if any of it comes across as harsh or overly critical. Good luck to you and best wishes for your GMing.

(Note: I am not a parent.)


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 11, 2004)

I have personally known 2 pedophiles in Boardgame/RPG hobby groups since I was a college age young adult to my current life as an attorney.

Sharing that experience (plus some additional exposure due to on the job experience) is a buddy of mine who is currently a high-level psychiatric care professional.

NEITHER of us figured out these guys were sickos until they got caught.

Many pedophiles, like any other predator, are very good at not being detected by their prey, as well as those whose job it is to detect them.

Some, however, do tip their hands- hanging out at playgrounds, in the children's book section of the local library or bookstore, etc., and a lot of municipalities give classes to make people like teachers and librarians more aware of the subtle cues and tells that may be present in a pedophile's behavior.


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## Razz0putin (Sep 11, 2004)

some things to consider.  Although these people are directly or indirectly causing you a lot of trouble they do mean well.  Often people have one of two types of arguments logical and emotional.  Logical is usually just missing some peice of information to make everything work.  Emotional comes from some place entirely different and if it starts there it must be met with a proper emotional response.  All of the facts in the world will not make a bit of differnce if they don't trust the source of those facts.

just my thoughts 

although I'd really, REALLY lose the minors


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## Saqhara (Sep 11, 2004)

One of the drawbacks to communicating via text only is that some of a person's intent can be misconstrued and therefore having meaning that it was not intended to have. Perhaps it is better for the general public to not know what behaviour would be deemed as 'tipping their hand' in order to catch predators. However I do take umbrage at potentially being thought of as pervert for doing research on just how many books about orphaned black kittens (my own) finding a home there are in the marketplace. If I would have penned a novel on the subtle nuances of limburger what would those in the know be thinking of me then?

Heck, I once spent three hours standing on a corner waiting for my girlfriend to pick me up (in my own car mind you) but did that mean I was selling 'something'?

Perhaps it's my revulsion at the thought of someone (not necessarily on this board mind you) thinking I was/am a one of the lowest forms of human life really bothers me. Before I broke my back I was working on some d20 projects and I researched the market then too. What warning flags did I raise then? I just felt really... eeew... to be thought of like that for just looking at books. 

But then all RPG players are deviants anyway right?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 11, 2004)

My post about tips was just to put someone else's post in perspective.  That person claimed to have spotted a couple of pedophiles in the library, and someone else basically asked if they had a special ability to spot pedophiles...

One thing I have learned in my time on this planet is that we have very little control over what people think of us.

I'm a 5'7" 230# black guy.  I have a reversible silk vest done by the Austin artist Cosette.  It is white on one side, and bubblegum pink on the other.  Each side is covered by a fabric painting technique called marbelizing.  Its fairly electric.

I wore it in one place, and everyone thought I was gay.

I wore it in another place, and was mistaken for a legbreaker come to work someone over.

Overall, its better that the public knows the potential warning signs of a pedophile...AS LONG AS they don't start any vigilantism/mob garbage.

I'm sorry that you may have been ID'd as a potential pedophile, but as long as you aren't, you shouldn't have too many problems.

As for a potential profile mixup, its not like you're black (gangster), hispanic (illegal alien), or anybody from the Middle East (terrorist)...or are you?

Don't get me wrong- I'm not anti-profiling.  I'm anti-MINDLESS profiling.  Profiling is a useful tool, but it loses its usefulness if used like an on/off switch for law-enforcement officials' brains.


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## Saqhara (Sep 11, 2004)

Actually, I was never ID'd (that sounds bad in and of itself) as a potential threat, it is just the thought of someone thinking I was being nefarious as opposed to blissfully ignorant. In the future I think I'll just sign out any children's books should I pursue that avenue again. 

While I'm on the subject of blissful ignorance I once remarked to a friend how I thought I might pick up one of those funky holographic full spectrum rainbow decal thingies for my car as I thought the one on my his car looked rather cool. My friend nearly died laughing and then explained to me through sobs and tears of humour at my expense that said decals are symbols of gay pride, at which point I joined him in laughing at myself.

As far as appearances go, while I was serving in the army I routinely had very short which was sometimes mistaken by people as a sign of me being a white supremacist which I did not find the least bit amusing at all.

I know we've sort of gotten of topic here that few posts but here I am having a hard time wrapping my head around that fact that for doing something that I never would have thought twice about, or even considered for a moment as being potentially alarming, I could have been seriously (or maliciously for that matter) considered a threat. I can only imagine what a teacher would feel like in a similar circumstance especially with his professional reputation on the line... Right now I'm pretty glad that I work in IT. Even the merest rumours could be damning I am beginning to think. Very scary.


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## Bagpuss (Sep 11, 2004)

Buttercup said:
			
		

> This is so true. As a public librarian, I've seen pedophiles hanging around the kiddie section of the library on more than one occasion. And that's a public place.




Just out of interest how do you tell the difference between a pedophile, a parent looking for a book suitable for his kid, an adult with a low reading age, or a children's author doing research?


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## Buttercup (Sep 11, 2004)

Saqhara said:
			
		

> How did you know they were pedophiles, were they holding signs? I am not making light of this at all but your statement seems to be as judgemental as the parent who complained to d20 fool's principal.



Because they were on the sex offender list.


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## Bagpuss (Sep 11, 2004)

Buttercup said:
			
		

> Because they were on the sex offender list.




Then arn't they violating the terms of their release?

But basically what you are saying is Saqhara shouldn't worry you wouldn't assume he's a pedophile, just because he happened to be an adult (without a child) in the children's book section.


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## Buttercup (Sep 11, 2004)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> Just out of interest how do you tell the difference between a pedophile, a parent looking for a book suitable for his kid, an adult with a low reading age, or a children's author doing research?



See my response above. Then too, do you typically go up to children you don't know and offer them candy if they'll go in the men's bathroom with you?


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## Buttercup (Sep 11, 2004)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> Then arn't they violating the terms of their release?
> 
> But basically what you are saying is Saqhara shouldn't worry you wouldn't assume he's a pedophile, just because he happened to be an adult (without a child) in the children's book section.



They might well be violating the terms of their release.  That's for the police to decide however, not me.  And you're correct.  Lots of adults sit in the children's area and read.  But they don't typically stare at, follow, or bribe strange children.  Also, they don't say things like "Do you like ponies?  I have a pony right here.  Would you like to ride my pony?"  (I actually witnessed a guy say this.  Right before I called the cops.)


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## Buttercup (Sep 11, 2004)

Saqhara said:
			
		

> Actually, I was never ID'd (that sounds bad in and of itself) as a potential threat, it is just the thought of someone thinking I was being nefarious as opposed to blissfully ignorant. In the future I think I'll just sign out any children's books should I pursue that avenue again.



As long as you are minding your own business, I seriously doubt anyone will assume anything untoward about you.  As I said in my repsonse to Bagpuss, plenty of adults enjoy children's books, and peruse the children's section.  That in itself doesn't raise eyebrows--at least not in anyplace I've ever worked.


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## durin (Sep 11, 2004)

I am a teacher also. While I live in a larger community, Austin TX, I teach in a small-town-feel suburb. I have introduced many of my students, and other children at my school, to RPG's through a school club. We play on Friday afternoons right there in my classroom in front of plenty of other students. I set ground rules, forbid them to take game issues away from the table, and generally try to stamp out all the things other adults have knee-jerk reactions to. You might ask your principal if such a club would be welcome at your school.

In the four or five years this club has been meeting (I call it Game Club and any thinking, strategic game is welcome -- most kids play Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh, some play chess and Risk, etc.) I have only ever had one set of parents voice even the glimmer of a concern. Their son was a sixth-grader and it was his first time to ever role-play. The father was a minister. The mom called me up and wanted to know more and voice some concerns. Mainly, she wanted to make sure I wasn't leading their son away from God. When I explained <everything from the last paragraph> and that in addition to teaching middle school I also teach Sunday school for two-year-olds, she was cool with it all and he turned out to be one of my more enthusatic players.

If you can be cool-headed about it (your post inferred you might not be) you might try calling the mom and asking about her concerns. By showing you value her concerns, you give her a feeling of worth and make a personal connection to her. Even if you don't change her mind, this may still take care of the problem before anyone has need for a lawyer.


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## Hunter Simon (Sep 11, 2004)

d20fool said:
			
		

> I also agree that the smartest thing is to disallow any minors from my game.  It is the simplest move that solves all problems.  In fact, since the other kid's mom (the lead whisperer in the whisper campaign) has gone pyscho, there is one regular player who is a minor.
> 
> But I have to look at that kid and ask, "Does he or does he not deserve to play?"  My gut says yes.  I'm not doing anything wrong, I'm providing a social, intellectually stimulating and creative activity.  I have as much right to teach the game to a younger generation as anyone, and he has the right to play it.




Your lack of wisdom is going to lead to trouble, I fear.  But I wish you the best.   :\


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## Dinkeldog (Sep 11, 2004)

Just as a reminder, please leave real-world religion at the door.  This is not about modern day religions vs. D&D.  Most especially, refrain from negative comments related to a specific religion and/or its adherents.

Thanks.

--Dinkeldog
Moderator


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## Celtavian (Sep 11, 2004)

*re*



			
				Buttercup said:
			
		

> They might well be violating the terms of their release.  That's for the police to decide however, not me.  And you're correct.  Lots of adults sit in the children's area and read.  But they don't typically stare at, follow, or bribe strange children.  Also, they don't say things like "Do you like ponies?  I have a pony right here.  Would you like to ride my pony?"  (I actually witnessed a guy say this.  Right before I called the cops.)




I'm so happy I don't work around this. I would have lost my mind if I saw this. I cannot bear a child being harmed. Worst crime on this earth.


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## JDJarvis (Sep 11, 2004)

Teachers and students mingling with each other can be a scoailly awkward thing and can endanger a teachers job.   One of my best friends has a crush on one of her proffesors this year (already) , she is an adult (28) but any relationship between her and her teacher may be viewed as a matter to have her proffesor removed from the college.

Years back at the near the end of Sr Year one of my circle of high school chums was joining the Coast Guard and his parents threw a Keg party for him and anyone he wanted to invite (illegal then but not considered socially evil by many) and the guests included one of our shop teachers and a science teacher, both of whom did show up and sociallized with us for some time that day, both men still would have been in career jeopardy if that information got back to the shcool because of fratrenizing with minors while illegal activities were going on (under age drinking). One of them played D&D with us every now and again aftershool on school grounds but he never hought it was a good idea to come by one of our houses to play because that may have been  looked on poorly. That was about 20 years ago, those two men were certainly in our circle of friends and lines were certainly crossed every now and then but they (and we) still had to be careful.

My regualr D&D group has one minor in it but he is the stepson of one of the players. I also DM a game every now and again for a group of boys ages 7 to 10, one is my son and two of the others are sons of friends. I wouldn't have a minor in my game who wasn't either there with a parent or delivered to my house by a parent.


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## Psionicist (Sep 11, 2004)

If you decide to let the parents monitor the game, hide the Book of Erotic Fantasy. Trust me.


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## Aeolius (Sep 11, 2004)

Psionicist said:
			
		

> If you decide to let the parents monitor the game, hide the Book of Erotic Fantasy. Trust me.




as well as the BoVD, and the revised MM (succubus, nymph, etc)


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## Brennin Magalus (Sep 11, 2004)

I agree with those who think your principal did you a favor. I wonder if recording your game time with a camcorder would help indemnify you.


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## Varianor Abroad (Sep 11, 2004)

No. It might exonerate you from criminal culpability, but chances are it would just serve to mitigate the damages in a civil lawsuit. Videos cut the arguments away from he said, she said to a great degree, but the plaintiffs lawyer who took the case could still make a great deal of hay off of what was *not * on the video and took place around the session.

(Indemnify, by the way, is typically used to mean "making a payment" on behalf of someone. An insurance policy indemnifies an insured by taking on the role of making payments.)


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## d20fool (Sep 11, 2004)

*Take two*

It's amazing how clear everything becomes after a good night's rest.  

A.) I've been arrogent and naive.  Of course a parent could be upset by this.  I know I'm not doing anything wrong, but they don't know that.  Since this woman has little understanding of what is going on, she has imagined the worst.  I've been teaching too long not to know how people work and that not everyone will be sensible, in fact they will often be fearful.  A permission slip helps dissapate this somewhat, but is not a cure.  It won't protect me from an allegation.  My original instinct was correct, no students at my table.

B.) I will ask students to leave the game, telling them why.  Like I said, this is mainly one kid right now, although there is another who plays occasionally.  I regret losing gaming population, but I do not lose the right to teach the game to other or to be a role model for them (I know that sounds strange, but when you work with kids you become aware of it.)

C.) I had already planned on making some of my games Living Greyhawk games.  I will instead run these games at a seperate time in a public location.  The details I have to figure out, and I will probably have to do it in the Warrensburg, a slightly larger city with a college.  My church is there and so is a comic book store and a large student union, so I feel I can find a venue to play.  Thus my younger players have somewhere to go, I can teach the game (something I like to do) and the little ladies don't get to run the town with a phone call.  I win.

What do you think folks?  Is this a good course of action?


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## Mark (Sep 11, 2004)

d20fool said:
			
		

> What do you think folks?  Is this a good course of action?




Looks good.  See if pogre has any caveats, though.  He seems to have all of the bases covered on this one (gamer, lawyer, teacher, coach, smallish town, etc.)


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## johnsemlak (Sep 11, 2004)

d20fool said:
			
		

> It's amazing how clear everything becomes after a good night's rest.
> 
> A.) I've been arrogent and naive.




I think you're being hard on yourself.  It's a lot to think about, and like you said, a good night's rest helps make things clearer.



> B.) I will ask students to leave the game, telling them why.



  I've been lurking on this thread and not responding, as others have offered far more pertinent advice than I can.  I'll just say based on what I've read in this thread, that sounds like an excellent decision.  Yes, it's too bad to lose a player, but the potential consequences are serious.



> C.) I had already planned on making some of my games Living Greyhawk games.  I will instead run these games at a seperate time in a public location.  The details I have to figure out, and I will probably have to do it in the Warrensburg, a slightly larger city with a college.  My church is there and so is a comic book store and a large student union, so I feel I can find a venue to play.  Thus my younger players have somewhere to go, I can teach the game (something I like to do) and the little ladies don't get to run the town with a phone call.  I win.



  That sounds like an excellent idea.  

Good luck!


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 11, 2004)

It was my experience in Manhattan, KS that most teens 15+ had access to some kind of transportation (a car or a buddy with a car) and could visit ajacent towns for fun as long as their parents didn't mind, knew who the were going to visit, and who with, etc.

I say that to set this up:

When you tell your players why they have to be dropped, also let them know your plans to game in that other city.  Of course, I don't know long a drive you're talking about, but if its short enough for YOU, it may be short enough for them.

*Note:  I am not advocating that you essentially tell these kids to game with you there- that only compounds the problem because it looks like you're sneaking around and avoiding the parents' scrutiny.*

What I AM saying is that by telling them about the options in Warrensburg, you will allow these kids to continue being involved in the hobby by networking with the game shop or the student union at the college in that other city.

YOU might not be able to game with them until they hit 18, but THEY might be able to continue gaming with people approximately their own age, +/- a couple of years.


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## Saqhara (Sep 11, 2004)

I think you are right about the good night's sleep doing wonders for clarity of thought. I would most likely not have gotten as emotional had I not been awake for nearly thirty hours. 

I think your best best would be with the college town, it certainly sounds like a safer venue. It really makes me sad that we would even have to worry about stuff like this...

Best of luck to you my friend. I hope everything works out for you and this just becomes a dim memory.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Sep 11, 2004)

d20fool said:
			
		

> Is this a good course of action?




This is the best thing I have heard from you. That said, be aware of "stamp collecting" e.g. the offended mother will not forget this and may try to use it in the future. Try not to offend her.


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## Dextra (Sep 12, 2004)

Mark said:
			
		

> I'm no lawyer but I don't think it is wise, as an adult, to game with minors (who are not your own children) in anything other than a public setting.  Further, I would not do so without the knowledge and consent of the parents of those minors, and third party witnessing of that consent (others at the gamestore, library, etc. being around when you asked if it is all right for them to play).




It's a shame, but I have to agree.
When we started up a gaming group of Gelfling #1's friends (then ages 12-13) to play BESMd20, I sent home a letter to their parents explaining the concept of the genre, role-playing, and the benefits thereof.  Not a single complaint.  One of them sent her daughter along to GenCon Indy with us.

A teacher gets held under such a public lens and must be beyond reproach.  Playing D&D in itself is not wrong, however being alone with a bunch of school kids could be perceived as trying to lead them into something else.  Just as if you were inviting a bunch of teens to your house to listen to Bach and to play Monopoly, some might wonder at your motivation for "luring" them to your home.

I know that there are a few education professionals on the boards, including a principal, hopefully they, and some legal-types, will chime in.


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## pogre (Sep 12, 2004)

d20fool said:
			
		

> It's amazing how clear everything becomes after a good night's rest.
> 
> A.) I've been arrogent and naive.  Of course a parent could be upset by this.  I know I'm not doing anything wrong, but they don't know that.  Since this woman has little understanding of what is going on, she has imagined the worst.  I've been teaching too long not to know how people work and that not everyone will be sensible, in fact they will often be fearful.  A permission slip helps dissapate this somewhat, but is not a cure.  It won't protect me from an allegation.  My original instinct was correct, no students at my table.
> 
> ...




I'm honestly relieved. I just caught up with the thread and on page 5, all I could say was, "The guy asked for legal advice, THREE attorneys answered and he has ignored us all." Thus, I was relieved to see the post quoted above.

Naturally, publicly played and advertized RPGA games are an appropriate place to play with folks of all ages. Plus you might get a few new folks to play in your RPGA games that might come over to your regular game - especially in a college town.

Final piece of advice - thank your principal and explain to her/him that you will not play games with students in the future at your place. Tell her you realize that appearances are very important and you will be more conscious of this in the future. Yes, it's a$$-kissing, but it's also good politics at this point 

Take care and good luck.


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## JoeBlank (Sep 12, 2004)

I've resisted commented so far, although I am also an attorney and from what used to be a small town. However, I practice almost exclusively workers' compensation law, so my legal experience is not particularly on point here. 

Glad to see things are fitting into place. I'm sorry that teachers are treated this way in this day and age, but that is just life. As a father of three sons, I fully expect to running games for them and others their age in the future. If any kids whose parents I do not already know get involved I will be sure to talk with the parents personally before allowing the kids in the group. 

Best of luck, and I hope you are still able to contribute to the next generation of gamers.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 12, 2004)

I said it before, I'll say it again- this thread needs to be stickied or archived.

Anyone have any special pull with the mods?


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## mythusmage (Sep 12, 2004)

1. The kids stay. 

2. Get the parents involved. Invite them to a game. Hold games at their houses. Introduce them to the other adult players. Stay in touch and widen your circle of friends.

People, we're not talking about infants here, we're talking about adolescents. Teens are supposed to be widening their world. No, they're not competent adults. But neither are they helpless babes. They make mistakes and, one hopes, learn from those mistakes.

In case you hadn't noticed, teens are not rational creatures. An adolescent gets kicked out of a group it's angst city time. A kid with a complex is not a pretty thing.

Another thing, would you please stop infantalizing adolescents? While not the most responsible critters in the world, they aint hopeless. Lay down some rules and insist junior abides by them. Expect responsibility of your teen, and your teen will do his best to live up to your expectation. Won't always succeed, but at least he'll try.

BTW, has anybody ever wondered how old those teens are?

One more thing, what say we stop letting the bigots and bozos have the initiative? By booting the adolescents from a group you are saying the anti D&D crowd's accusations have a foundation in fact. You are saying, for all intents and purposes, that D&D is bad for kids, and kids shouldn't play it.

Folks, what say we stop acting like twitter pated fuss budgets and start acting like adults?

(One last thing. I am very disappointed to see so many people who hate teenagers.)


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## LiKral (Sep 12, 2004)

When I was in Secondary School (which I think is equivalent to High School) one of the teachers ran a D&D club in lunchtimes. I regret not joining it now, as I always wanted to, but I was too shy at that age. Anyway, that teacher disappeared one day, and there were rumours that he had been fired for something. I never found out the details. I was upset because he was a great teacher. It was probably nothing to do with D&D but still... You can never be too careful when your livelihood is involved. 

In your case it is made worse because you are having kids to your (mother's) home. That would look really suspicious to anyone, even if it was a completely different hobby, like karate or comic collecting.


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## Citizen Mane (Sep 12, 2004)

mythusmage said:
			
		

> One more thing, what say we stop letting the bigots and bozos have the initiative? By booting the adolescents from a group you are saying the anti D&D crowd's accusations have a foundation in fact. You are saying, for all intents and purposes, that D&D is bad for kids, and kids shouldn't play it.
> 
> Folks, what say we stop acting like twitter pated fuss budgets and start acting like adults?
> 
> (One last thing. I am very disappointed to see so many people who hate teenagers.)




I don't know, mythusmage.  He's made it pretty clear that his job's on the line -- I'd say it's a little late to worry about him letting the bigots and bozos have the initiative, as it seems they have already got it.  I think what people are saying is not that D&D is bad for kids, but that it's probably not worth him losing his job over (which I would agree with).  As for the kids, they have the bad luck to be caught in the middle, I'll agree -- I'm not sure that I think they should have been in the group in the first place, but that's a moot point.

Point is, this just isn't worth him losing his job over.  He can get the kids involved in RPGA games in public places, which they'll do if they want to keep gaming.  This isn't about hating teenagers; this is about him keeping his job.

Nick


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## Jonny Nexus (Sep 12, 2004)

mythusmage said:
			
		

> One more thing, what say we stop letting the bigots and bozos have the initiative? By booting the adolescents from a group you are saying the anti D&D crowd's accusations have a foundation in fact. You are saying, for all intents and purposes, that D&D is bad for kids, and kids shouldn't play it.




But this has nothing to do with D&D. People would have been giving him the exact same advice if he'd been hosting Opera appreciation evenings, in his mum's garage, with teenagers attending, and someone had complained.

It's a fact of life that teachers can't really be seen to socialise with the children they teach. Boundaries have to be kept. Teachers should be fair and impartial adult figures of authority, and not friends. I think it's unfortunate that in the modern world, these basic principles have been taken up to somewhat hysterical extremes, but there are still some basic principles there.

Now admittedly this isn't the case here, because he teaches a completely different (younger) age group. So in principle, he should be able to carry on having teenagers in his game without weakening his "status" as a teacher with *his* pupils. But unfortunately many people will fail to see that distinction (that he teaches a different age group).

But my point is this: this isn't about D&D.


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## d20fool (Sep 12, 2004)

pogre said:
			
		

> I'm honestly relieved. I just caught up with the thread and on page 5, all I could say was, "The guy asked for legal advice, THREE attorneys answered and he has ignored us all." Thus, I was relieved to see the post quoted above.
> 
> Naturally, publicly played and advertized RPGA games are an appropriate place to play with folks of all ages. Plus you might get a few new folks to play in your RPGA games that might come over to your regular game - especially in a college town.
> 
> ...




Thank you for your advice.  I don't think I would have considered it soon at all without it.  Yes, it punishes a couple of players, one regular player and an infrequent player (whose parents I did talk to and played D&D at one time themselves).  The mom of the regular player said "They hardly have to be lured" and was quite supportive.  Her son is best friends with the kid whose mom is the problem.  If I know my locals, mom number one has given mom number two an earful.  

I'm hoping the RPGA/Living Greyhawk thing will work out.  Any Dyver's region folks in and around Warrensburg care to comment?

I've already thanked my principal, I almost did the second sentence you spoke of but stopped short. I will do so verbally at next opportunity.

I still haven't had a chance to give my union rep a written notice, but I shall do so.

Thank you for all your input pogre.


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## d20fool (Sep 12, 2004)

mythusmage said:
			
		

> 1. The kids stay.
> 
> 2. Get the parents involved. Invite them to a game. Hold games at their houses. Introduce them to the other adult players. Stay in touch and widen your circle of friends.
> 
> ...




1. This was my initial reaction too.  However, considering professional ethics, I feel I had a lapse of wisdom in having them there in the first place.  

Let's say one of these kids commit suicide (which is a very rare event here, BTW.)  People look for a reason, and oh, six months ago he played D&D twice with that teacher.  That's all it takes for me to lose my job. Further, chances are I can't get hired anywhere else. 

I knew a teacher once who taught English in a high school.  One of his students accused him of saying her hair was "sexy."  She even claimed he did it in front of the class.  Some students seemed to back up her story.  He was immediately put on adminstrative leave, this means he loses his job and cannot come back to that school ever.  The union descended like locusts on that school and found out the truth.  The girl had entered the room tardy with a new hair-do.  Several boys in class showed their appreciation with wolf-whistles and other remarks.  The teacher, angered at the disruption, told her to sit down.  She said, "But my hair's sexy, Mr. U" and he said, "Yeah, yeah, whatever."

Although completely innocent, he was not re-hired by the district.  When he found a job in a neighboring district, they refused tenure when they got wind of the incident.  His guilt or innocence was irrelevant,  it was his reputation that was the problem.  That sir, is what I am dealing with.

My gut said, after looking at my triple digit bank balance right after pay day, "if they want my job they can have it."  I'm a smart guy.  I would make a decent lawyer or management somewhere.  But that might consist of moving, which would mean my wife would have to stop her program.  She has engineered and run a drop-out retention program for the last two years.  She came up with it, she runs it, she writes here own grant, she is practically her own counselor, she fends off problems with some of her adminstration who take out their frustrations with her students on her, and she is very successful.  Last year she graduated 19 kids, just her and an aide.  She actually makes money for the district with retentions and students sent from other school districts.  My mother and stepfather moved here to be near us.  Our entire lives and any good we've done over the last five years would be derailed.  I'm just not willing to do that so that some high school kids can come to my game.  I'm sorry, but I have to acknowledge the facts.

2. Further, I have plans to provide venue for these kids.  I don't want to go trapsing around to different homes.  Some of these kids don't have great homes to begin with.  Not everybody has a dining room set you know.  I've got a great space and I'm keeping it.

The students in question are all 16 and older.  Part of the reason I thought it was OK was that they were so much older.  But they are still someone's child and someone could still get upset.  

One of the players I've had in the past, for example, died of a strange blod clot while jogging (I had a memorial on my site for some time.)  I know it sounds strange, but what if someone says the devil took her becuase she played D&D at my table once.  I live in the sort of town where some would be OK with that.  Incredible but true.  We've had sniping in my grade level about Harry Potter (someone actually posted the joke story from The Onion about it as if it were fact, they bought into it completely. If someone could post it please, it's hysterical) and we had a battle royale with one church about using "A Wrinkle in Time" in the classroom (it mentions a "mystic adventure" on the jacket blurb, mystic means satan, doncha' know.)  I had one colleague want to take the Giver off our shelf just because it's controversial (I won that fight.)  That stuff does happen here. 

I have to concede the point to the "bigots and bozos" (nice phraseology, BTW) but by expanding my activities (something I will now be very motivated to do) I get to win.  I get to bring more players into the game than ever before.  I get to "legitimize" D&D to some small degree.  A pyrric victory, a victory not yet realized, but a victory.  That's the way to fight the bigots and the bozos, you give in (nothing to argue about now) and then come back with something they can't argue with (or would look like fools for doing so.)  My wife and I have done that fight before, and we are pretty good at it now.

Finally, I do NOT hate teenagers.  I told the kid whose mom is exploding on him (and me) that he should not feel responsible.  He is in no way expected to control the actions of his mother.  I would prefer people to call me with concerns, but many here would rather call my principal or a school board member rather than me.  It's not very adult in my opinion, but it is predictable and I should have seen it coming.

Hmm, way too many paranthesis in that post, couple of spelling errors, I give myself a C-.


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## pogre (Sep 12, 2004)

d20fool said:
			
		

> Thank you for all your input pogre.




You're welcome.


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## D+1 (Sep 12, 2004)

EDIT- My response pretty much just repeats what others have said (I jumped in before I looked at the post date and saw that the responses already ran to 7 pages).


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## Lonely Tylenol (Sep 12, 2004)

Say, I'm sure that a lot of people on here are parents with kids in school.  And we know that school boards tend to be populated (for some crazy reason) with the most spineless and lunatic people available, who tend to listen to the paranoid caterwaulings of blue-hairs and busybodies.  So let's do something about it.

In most places, school boards are voted on.  Why not find out who's going to be running for administrator positions in your area, and have a chat with them.  Even if you can't change the outcome by voting, you can at least give your administrators an idea of how you feel about things.  If anything like d20fool's situation has come up in the past, tell them how you feel about the way they dealt with it.  If they were reasonable, let them know you are pleased with their decision.  If they were unreasonable, tell them you think so.  You're the public they must please.

Secondly, don't let the "bigots and bozos" be the ones to go to the board or the principal with complaints.  Certainly it's reasonable for parents to be concerned about their kids hanging out with adults.  But do we trust the character judgement of those bigots and bozos?  Why not get someone whose judgement you trust to check out the activities and the adults involved.  Like, for example, yourself.  If you hear of something like this, be the one to talk to the students and the adults involved to see what's up.  You're less likely to be unreasonable than a bozo picked at random, and the bozos are more likely to listen to another parent than they are to listen to the adults in question.

So rather than let fear and loathing win the day every time, why not be part of a constructive and proactive approach in your own locality?  It's your right to be involved, after all.


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## FungiMuncher (Sep 12, 2004)

d20fool said:
			
		

> What do you think folks?  Is this a good course of action?




It's sensitive to the complaining parent's concerns, it addresses the realities of the career, and opens up a reasonably good option for your younger players.  Your plan sounds very good.  






			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> (snip)
> 
> One more thing, what say we stop letting the bigots and bozos have the initiative?
> 
> ...



I seriously doubt it's hate for anyone who has chimed in here.  However, I bet we can agree that there's a dynamic tension going on with the topic at hand (to put it mildly).






			
				d20fool said:
			
		

> (snip)
> 
> ...  by expanding my activities (something I will now be very motivated to do) I get to win.


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## ForceUser (Sep 12, 2004)

d20fool said:
			
		

> It's amazing how clear everything becomes after a good night's rest.
> 
> A.) I've been arrogent and naive.  Of course a parent could be upset by this.  I know I'm not doing anything wrong, but they don't know that.  Since this woman has little understanding of what is going on, she has imagined the worst.  I've been teaching too long not to know how people work and that not everyone will be sensible, in fact they will often be fearful.  A permission slip helps dissapate this somewhat, but is not a cure.  It won't protect me from an allegation.  My original instinct was correct, no students at my table.
> 
> ...



I think dropping the kids from your private game is a good idea. 

That said, wow, Warrensburg. From 1980 - 85 I lived in a sleepy town called Leeton, MO, which was about thirty miles from both Warrensburg and Clinton. Is it still there? There were only 690 people living there when I was a child.


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## KnowTheToe (Sep 12, 2004)

Excellent plan.


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## Hunter Simon (Sep 12, 2004)

mythusmage said:
			
		

> 1. The kids stay.
> 
> 2. Get the parents involved. Invite them to a game. Hold games at their houses. Introduce them to the other adult players. Stay in touch and widen your circle of friends.
> 
> ...




You're not a parent, are you?


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## Buttercup (Sep 13, 2004)

d20fool said:
			
		

> What do you think folks? Is this a good course of action?



It sounds like one to me.  I think you've covered all the bases, and you still get to do what's important to you.


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## Buttercup (Sep 13, 2004)

mythusmage said:
			
		

> (One last thing. I am very disappointed to see so many people who hate teenagers.)



I didn't see any comments in this thread that suggested a hatred of (or even mild dislike of) teenagers.  What I did see was a wide-spread awareness an ugly reality.  Since you evidently aren't aware of same, I'll be as blunt as Eric's Grandma will allow.

Society as a whole is quite suspicious of adults who spend leisure time with children who are not related to them.  Men in particular are looked askance at when they hang out with minors.  People fear the man is going to do what so many catholic priests have done, kapiche?  Teachers have even less leaway because, while society trusts them with our most precious resource all day, every day, the consequences if this trust is misplaced could be tragic.

Actually, none of this has anything to do with teens, and everything to do with the fear of adult males.


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## Corinth (Sep 13, 2004)

Hunter Simon said:
			
		

> You're not a parent, are you?



Irrelevant.  It's the principle that matters, and a man that will not stand on principle isn't a man at all.  Nothing else in life matters than to stand for principle.


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## Serps (Sep 13, 2004)

Corinth said:
			
		

> Irrelevant.  It's the principle that matters, and a man that will not stand on principle isn't a man at all.  Nothing else in life matters than to stand for principle.




That's up to every individual to decide, don't you think? Not everyone's cut out to water the tree of Liberty with their blood, never mind the tree of Roleplaying Freedom.

Besides, d20fool has already indicated that it's not just him that will be affected; it's his wife and her work that would be impacted, not to mention the people she helps, the students he teaches and so forth.


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## d20fool (Sep 13, 2004)

Corinth said:
			
		

> Irrelevant.  It's the principle that matters, and a man that will not stand on principle isn't a man at all.  Nothing else in life matters than to stand for principle.




Forgive me Corinth, but standing for a principle doesn't mean I have to do it in the stupiest way possible.  I plan to provide a venue for these students to play, one that doesn't involve me being vulnerable to any attack.  

If it means I'm not a man to be sensible about whom I play with, so be it.


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## Christian (Sep 13, 2004)

d20fool said:
			
		

> We've had sniping in my grade level about Harry Potter (someone actually posted the joke story from The Onion about it as if it were fact, they bought into it completely. If someone could post it please, it's hysterical) ...




Harry Potter Books Spark Rise In Satanism Among Children 

Absolutely astonishing how many people in the world think in terms such that stuff like this seems genuine and serious ...


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## Vraille Darkfang (Sep 13, 2004)

d20 fool,

I live in Columbia. but did my internship at KBRPC (I hate route-13) in Clinton & went to High School in Warrensburg & later to college at CMSU.  Having lived for over 10 years (age 15-27) in your region (and having many friends who have lived their ENTIRE life in small town MO (smaller than Clinton even) I have this to say.

ARE YOU CRAZY!!!!

You're lucky.  I grew up around small town education boards.  You tick off the wrong parent & you are gone.  If you are local (lived there most your life) you might be OK as you are considered a member of the community, not some stranger bringing weird ideas (like D&D, tolerance, NOT drinking beer while hunting deer).  That last one is very, very real people.  I know at least three farmers that paint "COW" on their cattle every year during deer season.  They still lose a few every now & again.  I'm NOT kidding.

Back to topic.  I've not lived in Clinton but commuted there for over a year & knew a lot of people at CMSU from Clinton.  D&D is still on the level of sacrificing house pets to Satan for some people around there.  I don't want to stereotype them as inbred, intolerant, ignorant hicks. They aren't inbred, most aren't intolerant, and many are not ignorant.  But some are.

I've BEEN a student in the situation you are describing.  Don't throw your career away.  I KNOW Clinton.  It is more open minded than many small towns in MO, but that isn't saying a lot.

Now my advice.  Not as a lawyer.  Not as a Teacher.  Not as a Roleplayer.  But as someone who grew up in the Clinton-Warrensburg Area & my view as a teenager there.

I would have loved to know about D&D & roleplaying in general.  (I never learned about it until my freshman year at Rolla).  There were many things I never learned about in Warrensburg High School (anime, philosophy, art, etc).  Prevailing religious & political views limited my development as a human being, but also made me the person I am today.  Don't let everyone else prevent my growth.  But, don't risk your own neck so I know what a d20 is.

There's my view.

Here's the real advice (from somebody who KNOWS the town).

1.  Playing in a Public place.  In Clinton MO.  I think I know every public place in Clinton & I doubt any of them would take politely to a D&D game.  (you'd get an old lady calling the cop.  OK, they do have more than one).  You might find someplace downtown that wouldn't mind.  Some kind of new-age shop, but I don't remember any.  Don't play in public in Clinton.

2. Permission slips.  I know about teenage rebellion in small town MO.  You know about it too.  You know the high school kids in your game, you know how they feel about their parents.  You know how the mother & her son react to each other.  From what you said, I doubt permission slips really are what you need.  A family counsellor is more likely to make headway.

3. Kids got to fly on their own.  All the high school kids need to form a group of their own and play at one of their parents' houses.  Let them & their parents compromise amongst themselves.  If they want to role-play they can do it by themselves, play videogames, read novels, or even play by e-mail.  Or they can wait till they go to CMSU & find all the gamers & student lounges they want.

4. If you need more players, try to find them at CMSU.  Used to be an official RPG club on campus till it got disbanded (long story, but it involves trying to put on a Con on campus & money).  Big mess, but as far as I know there no longer is one source for finding players at CMSU.  But they are there.  I know several that are still there.  The drive from Clinton to Warrensburg isn't too bad.  You could easily make a Sat or Sun game at CMSU.  You might even find players willing to drive down to Clinton.

There, advice from someone who's been there (by there I mean Clinton MO).
Vraille Darkfang
Yes, CMSU has a giant red ass as its mascot.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 13, 2004)

Mythusmage, if you've ever lived in a small town, you would understand just how conservative those places can be.

I no longer live in a small town, but when I did, I was thought (by some) to be a satanist because of my RPG hobby.  As a student, I couldn't get fired.  Since the gaming wasn't illegal and wasn't on campus, I couldn't get expelled.

D20fool is a TEACHER, and serves only at the whims of those B&Bs.  If he were in the same situation in a larger town, my advice would be different.  Finding alternate employment would be easier.  His wife's job wouldn't be in jeopardy.  Besides which, the voices of just a couple of people would not carry as much weight.  Heck, he might even find a principle willing to have an RPG club on his school campus in a larger city- after all, I managed to have one at a Catholic private school in Dallas.

But in a small town, once you're ostracised, you might as well move away if you can.

By asking him to stand up to the B&B for D&D in a small town, you're asking D20fool to be the equivalent of the next black man to move to Vidor, Texas.   His job could dissapear, along with his wife's.  He probably wouldn't get killed, but he could get assaulted or his property vandalized.

I'm not about to suggest THAT possible fate over a game.

Freedom is worth fighting for, and bigotry and ignorance are worth fighting.  However, a wise warrior knows when he's outnumbered or outgunned, and chooses his battles accordingly.


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## Host of Angels (Sep 13, 2004)

It would seem that you have taken a sage course of action. I find the tales of small town life chilling - but dropping the kids seems wise. However, I take heart that you have the courage of your conviction (and principles) to try and set up a games group that the kids can participate in. I hope it works out.

On another note - why not keep their characters lurking in the wings as NPCs until the kids come of age... 

Good luck


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## WizarDru (Sep 13, 2004)

Corinth said:
			
		

> Irrelevant. It's the principle that matters, and a man that will not stand on principle isn't a man at all. Nothing else in life matters than to stand for principle.



 I don't think principles were being called into question, merely your perspectives about child-rearing.  Personally, I consider my children's lives to matter more than pure academic principle, but that's a decision each person has to make on their own.

 d20fool, I think you're taking the correct approach.


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## mmu1 (Sep 13, 2004)

Corinth said:
			
		

> Irrelevant.  It's the principle that matters, and a man that will not stand on principle isn't a man at all.  Nothing else in life matters than to stand for principle.




One of the principles I stand by is not letting idiots on the internet guide my actions.


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## Pielorinho (Sep 13, 2004)

An interesting story, and I'm glad things are working out.  I will remind folks that, especially on hot-button issues like this, it's imperative to avoid calling other people names because they feel differently than you do about the issue.

Personally, in this case, while principles are important, I think it's the *principal* that matters.

Daniel


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## billd91 (Sep 13, 2004)

d20fool said:
			
		

> Thank you for your advice.  I don't think I would have considered it soon at all without it.  Yes, it punishes a couple of players, one regular player and an infrequent player (whose parents I did talk to and played D&D at one time themselves).  The mom of the regular player said "They hardly have to be lured" and was quite supportive.  Her son is best friends with the kid whose mom is the problem.  If I know my locals, mom number one has given mom number two an earful.




Now this is especially sad. Because of worries about one busybody, you have to cut out two kids whose parents know what you're doing and actively approve of it. I'd still try to keep these kids in the game somehow, even if that means getting our of your mother's poker room and into a public locale. Playing at the local student union was one place teens without a lot of gaming classmates could rub elbows with more experienced adult players and learn a whole heck of a lot.


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## LiKral (Sep 13, 2004)

Those two kids that lost out can still set up their own game with their friends. That will introduce more people to the hobby and possibly give them more satisfaction than simply being players.


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## Kanegrundar (Sep 13, 2004)

I went to college at CMSU in Warrensburg for 3.5 years, my little sister is there now, and I still spend a lot of time there.  It does have much of the small town mentalities, but thanks to the university, it isn't nearly as bad as other small towns (of which I've lived most of my life).  That said, I do find it surprising that such attitude was taken.  Granted, I'm sure the mother was thinking more about her son spending so much time with an older man rather than the gaming aspect.  

All in all, I think D20fool is taking the right course of action here.  I game with my old High School science teacher.  While we would discuss games and comics before and after class, he never invited me over until I had graduated.  Sure, there were a few people that found it wierd, but nothing ever came of it.  (My home town has only 290 people in it...a LOT smaller than Warrensburg.)  Wait until the kids are out of their parents' homes and then invite them to game when they are back on college break or something.  Heck, you could even start a PBEM game with them when they're at school.  

As for all the small-town bashing, it sounds like the exact reverse of small town folk bashing those from large cities.  Most of it is either blown out of proportion or is formed from little to no actual knowledge of such places.  Sure, small towns can be very conservative and closed off, but not all of them are that way, and certainly not all the people are that way either.  I moved back to my small town (the Marshall, Malta Bend area about an hour northeast of Warrensburg) after college.  I still game, listen to music other than country, and watch gross amounts of sci-fi.  I openly discuss such things to those that ask or show and interest.  Sure, I've met a couple people that don't like my interests, but I've never once been blackballed for it.  I guess I'm lucky in that regard.  I'm also not in a position that can get me fired by scaring the wrong person either.  I just wanted those that are getting a misrepresented view of small town mentalities to see the other side of the story.

Oh yeah, the big RPG group that was around at CMSU is still dead, but there are several smaller groups around.  Gaming is very much alive in Warrensburg.

Adios,
Kane


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## Serps (Sep 14, 2004)

Oh, and thank you d20fool for this topic. It has been quite enlightening, especially for someone who doesn't live in the USA. I was raised in a small town, but evidently not as conservative as the one in which you are living.


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## d20fool (Sep 14, 2004)

Buttercup said:
			
		

> Society as a whole is quite suspicious of adults who spend leisure time with children who are not related to them.  Men in particular are looked askance at when they hang out with minors.  People fear the man is going to do what so many catholic priests have done, kapiche?  Teachers have even less leaway because, while society trusts them with our most precious resource all day, every day, the consequences if this trust is misplaced could be tragic.
> 
> Actually, none of this has anything to do with teens, and everything to do with the fear of adult males.




BINGO! Granted, most child molesters are male.  However, the only child molestor that we have (that we have had one is especially rare anyway) was a woman, a paraprofessional/cheerleading coach whose victims where her son's friends (yeesh!)  Just because she is a woman, many in town have refused to believe it happend, EVEN THOUGH she plead guilty.  Can you believe it? 

But as a man who works with pre-pubescent children, I have to be constantly mindful of how I appear.  Today I had a female student have to wait 1/2 an hour for her mom to show up after a practice for an academic competition I coach.  I kept thinking "There's no one else around buy my own two children."  I actually managed to keep distance from her of at least 10' the whole time.  That's my reality in a nutshell.  Just becuase I'm male, I'm a suspect.  I understand the attitude, I don't always agree with it, but I understand.  

At nearby CMSU, male teacher candidates are told directly not to enter elementary education, becuase they won't be hired.  At my school, 3 out of the 33 teachers are male.  I must be constantly mindful of how I appear.  Further, many of these kids don't have regular father figures.  I frequently have kids want to hug me, hang on me, or just have some sort of contact.  I should be flattered, but it's always a little unnerving.

Anyway, some homophobia/fear of child molestation is clearly an issue here.  I was told the mom thought it was "weird" for a man my age (33) to play with 16 year olds.  This wouldn't be an issue if, for example, I wanted to take them fishing or deer hunting though, a common occurance here.  So D&D is still a factor.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Sep 14, 2004)

I really appreciate the insight that I've gotten, as well.  As an individual studying to be a high school teacher, I had always thought that I would game with my students... 

Maybe that will not be a reality.

I wish you all the best d20fool-- keep us updated!!


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## d20fool (Sep 14, 2004)

Kanegrundar said:
			
		

> As for all the small-town bashing, it sounds like the exact reverse of small town folk bashing those from large cities.  Most of it is either blown out of proportion or is formed from little to no actual knowledge of such places.  Sure, small towns can be very conservative and closed off, but not all of them are that way, and certainly not all the people are that way either.  I moved back to my small town (the Marshall, Malta Bend area about an hour northeast of Warrensburg) after college.  I still game, listen to music other than country, and watch gross amounts of sci-fi.  I openly discuss such things to those that ask or show and interest.  Sure, I've met a couple people that don't like my interests, but I've never once been blackballed for it.  I guess I'm lucky in that regard.  I'm also not in a position that can get me fired by scaring the wrong person either.  I just wanted those that are getting a misrepresented view of small town mentalities to see the other side of the story.




True, although this thread started from the closed minded aspect of small town life, I really do like living here.  Here are some reasons why:

1.) When you hire a kid to water your plants and feed the cat, her mom discreetly does it instead.
2.) The kids wait until they get into their cars to smoke.  They never do it on busy roads.
3.) People stop and wave for you to go first even when they have the right of way.
4.) Once, I got stopped twice in front of the stop light by the post office. That's it for traffic jams.
5.) People always smile and wave, even if they don't know you.
6.) The kids are polite, even the stinkers.  Most are very, very nice and they always smile and wave even if you gave them all F's and took away a 100 recesses from them.
7.) People will hunt you down like a dog to tell you that you left your lights on.
8.) People actually slow down for the blinking school zone light.
9.) You can see everybody you know at Wal-Mart.
10.) If you drop something, someone will run after you to give it back.
11.) If you call a wrong number, you might end up talking to someone for 10 minutes anyway.
12.) Political candidates almost never identify their party on their ads, you actually have to find out about the guy. Often, they come to your door.
13.) The mayor doesn't have an ounce of charisma, but he's good at his job and people elect him anyway.
14.) If me or my wife have a problem, we can often have an hour long discussion with the superintendent the very same day.  Try that city folk!
15.) The football coach is harder on his team than anybody and doesn't expect any slack cut for them.  

Sure, they fear change here.  The town motto should be "We fear change." People are often ignorant, racist, or homophobic to some degree. I've learned to live with it and treat myself as a "college liberal missionary." I would not trade living here easily, and I certainly would not return to a city (I've lived in Denver and Ft. Worth)  Nice cities both, but they're not home.  Not anymore.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 14, 2004)

I won't ask why, but I must say that I'm surprised at your feelings about Denver and Ft. Worth.  I guess you've been bewitched by that small town charm.

On the flip side, I must confess I like city life.  I don't miss having to drive 2 hours to find a restaraunt with a dress code stronger than "No shirt, no shoes, no service," or being able to go to a museum to see a Ming Vase that wasn't done by Mrs. Johnson as a tribute to her beloved Chow-Chow.

And I definitely don't miss going out to the hill to watch the new farm equipment roll in on a Friday or Saturday night...

Green Acres wasn't the life for me!


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## Kanegrundar (Sep 14, 2004)

D20Fool, you hit the nail on the head for me as well.  Those are all great reasons for living in a smaller town.  I'm actually facing the prospect of moving to Independence early next year.  My girlfriend and I are talking marriage and she's adamant about staying in the city for the time being while she finishes her masters.  I'm not so sure how I'll like it.  There's something greatly unnerving to me to hear so many sirens in a night...

As for Dannyalcatraz, well, Warrensburg isn't Green Acres.  Sure, it's still a town of under 100K, but there are several nice restaurants and things to do other than "watching farm equipment roll by on Saturday night."  Just because a town is small doesn't mean it have nothing to offer.

Back to the issue at hand, though, I hear you (D20fool) on the insularness of small towns.  People here are wary of newcomers, racist, and homophobic.  However, I have seen many of the same attitudes in neighborhoods in the city.  The fact is while such attitudes may be more noticable in smaller towns, it's by no means a small town only issue.  

Kane


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 18, 2004)

Well, Warrensburgh might not have been, but Manhattan KS was...close.

Pop: 30-40K when K State was in session.

Pop:13-20 when it wasn't.

And we were all thankful we didn't live in Ogden, next to Ft. Riley (home of the "Big Red 1").  They only had one traffic signal- a flashing red light.


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## d20fool (Sep 18, 2004)

*Thank you all again*

My wife just talked with her principal (the high school principal) about the situation.  He would be the other one concerned.  He had heard it mentioned briefly (it took him a moment to recall) but it was not a concern for him at all.

Thank you all for your support.  What a sad world when teaching children to use guns to kill animals (i.e. hunting) is acceptable but a creativity, imagination, being social and reading hard books and doing math (i.e. D&D) is not.

BTW, to the poster about Leeton, it is still there, such as it is.

Thank you!


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## Paul Cardwell (Sep 21, 2004)

*D&D has threatened my job*

Regarding the discussion on September 10 about the teacher getting adverse feedback over having kids in a D&D game:

First, thanks for the case.  We will be metaphorically throwing it in the face of the next person who says there is no need for CAR-PGa because no one is attacking games any more (CAR-PGa always dealt with far more than game defense).

Second, with the exception of leaving the place, all the suggestions were valid (leaving won't help, the case will follow forever).

I would suggest two things to be done immediately.  First, separate the adults and kids gaming for the time being, and suspending the kids' operation temporarily.  Let's hope their parents will organize in your defense as a result.  Meet with them to explain.

Second, get copies of the brochure series Games In Education, by David Millians, from GAMA; and Role Playing Games and the Gifted Student, by Paul Cardwell, Gifted Education International, Vol. 11, No. 1, 1995, pp 39-46.  Failing to find this scholarly journal, a slightly updated form can be had from CAR-PGa for $1.50. 

Millians is a 5-6 grade teacher in Atlanta, GA, who has been using RPG in his classes well over a decade, while Cardwell is Chair of CAR-PGa, an international network of researchers into all aspects of role-playing games, including curriculum and therapy as well as recreation.

Take these to your principal and urge approval of a game group as part of the official extracurricular activities program of your school, and be prepared to demonstrate how the games can be used to supplement the classroom curriculum.  (Millians' is primarily in-class use, while Cardwell's is aimed at demonstrating RPG as an education tool regardless of where used.)

The public venue for youth gaming is essential.  Failing getting it to be an official school function, a church being best - if they totally support the activity as opposed to merely providing space.  Otherwise they will be the target of a divisive campaign against the church.  Small towns rarely have recreation centers nor libraries with enough space.

This is still no sure defense.  I heard rumors of such attacks when I had a book and hobby store in a small town, but no one had to courage to give me any details so I could take legal action for defamation.  The ludoteque (game room) was in the same space as the used book department and as a result had shoppers there most of the time.  Still, the game-bashers apparently were at work, although without success. 

If you need to go the lawyer route, have him contact CAR-PGa immediately when when case is filed and we will attempt an amicus curiae brief.  Although the court must grant permission for the brief to be accepted, it could help.  For that, we would need the details of the case and the format for such a brief in your state (they vary a bit from one jurisdiction to another).

GAMA's address is Box 1210, Scottsdale, AZ 85252, 480-675-0205, www.gama.org.  As the name (GAme Manufacturers' Association) implies, GAMA is overwhelmingly game manufacturers.

CAR-PGa is at 1127 Cedar, Bonham, TX 75418, 903 583-9296, carpgachair@yahoo.com.  CAR-PGa is open to any, with nonmonetary dues (documented work for the cause) and information can be found at www.theescapist.com/car-pga.  They also have a discussion group on yahoogroups.com/car-pga (which is where I found this case.).

Get in touch offline in any case.

Paul Cardwell


Having finally had a chance to wade through all the replies (I only have Internet access at the public library and the hour is usually up just checking my e-mail), I find a sympathy with Dr. Awkward, Mythusmage, and Corinth.

Like Jefferson, I fear for my country when I reflect that God is just.  A building in Oklahoma City is blown up and people are outraged, but get over it.  After all, it was a US Government  building and the demolisher was a home-grown terrorist.  An office building in New York gets blown up and people forget it was owned by a governmental agency (the Port of New York Authority) but most in it were multinational corporations and the demolishers were from outside the country.  Therefore we not only nulify most of the Bill of Rights and a substantial part of the rest of the Constitution, but have the gall to call it Patriot!

Yes, fighting for freedom, due process, and innocense until proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt is dangerous.  It is true that the family suffers along with the patriot.  I know I spent six years in exile (merci, Canada) because I needed to feed my family and the blacklists wouldn't let me in my own country.

Yes, small towns can be a pill, although I hardly think D20 is in a small town.  It seems to have a university (mine doesn't) and a community center (mine doesn't), and at least a five-digit population figure (mine missed it by ten in the last census).  Indeed, until the state mandated it, my ludoteque was the nearest thing to a recreation program other than athletics in town.  As the saying developed, "If the teen hang-out is a book store, you know you have problems."

Nonetheless, freedom is like fitness, use it or lose it.


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## Klaus (Feb 15, 2005)

Just a little *bump* to know how things are going for d20Fool.

[casts Ressurrect Thread]


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## francisca (Feb 15, 2005)

d20fool said:
			
		

> Thank you all for your support.  What a sad world when teaching children to use guns to kill animals (i.e. hunting) is acceptable but a creativity, imagination, being social and reading hard books and doing math (i.e. D&D) is not.



That's awefully political.


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## Jdvn1 (Feb 15, 2005)

pogre said:
			
		

> Missouri unions are not as powerful as ours in Illinois, but you need to make your rep aware of the meeting with your principal via written letter. Create a paper trail to save any possible recourse you may choose to take later.



I second getting the union involved.  If you're part of a national union, that's a better option.


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## Farland (Feb 15, 2005)

As a teacher myself, my best advice to you is not to play with anyone who is still in school or anyone who is a minor.


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## guyjin (Feb 15, 2005)

*Radical Idea...*

If you're so scared of the board, run for a seat.


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## el-remmen (Feb 16, 2005)

Hi all. . .

It looks like this thread has run its course and has no where else to go but political ground, which we all know if not allowed here. 

So, I am going to close the thread and wish good luck to d20fool and anyone else dealing with gaming misconceptions.


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