# Another Year of EN World Demographics!



## schneeland (Jun 16, 2021)

Just of out curiosity: do you have a breakdown of clicks on D&D vs non-D&D articles in the news section?


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## Morrus (Jun 16, 2021)

schneeland said:


> Just of out curiosity: do you have a breakdown of clicks on D&D vs non-D&D articles in the news section?



No, but comment counts are usually a good guide. D&D is higher by an order of magnitude than anything else.


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## Imaculata (Jun 16, 2021)

Do you have any indication for the reason for this slight change in demographic, and is it a continuing trend?


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## Nikosandros (Jun 16, 2021)

Very interesting, as usual. Is there any data for forum users?


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## Morrus (Jun 16, 2021)

Nikosandros said:


> Very interesting, as usual. Is there any data for forum users?



It could probably be teased out, but it wouldn't be easy.


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## Morrus (Jun 16, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> Do you have any indication for the reason for this slight change in demographic, and is it a continuing trend?



I assume the readership follows the general hobby demographics. The reasons for _that_ change are multitudinous!


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## aco175 (Jun 16, 2021)

It is interesting to see.  Based on the posts I see, I would think that the age tends higher with most posts I see (mostly on the D&D page) tends towards 40s+ age


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## Sacrosanct (Jun 16, 2021)

Woot!  I finally reached the top 10% in something!

In all seriousness, I am really glad to see the % of  younger gamers go higher.  They are critical to keeping the hobby alive.  And as an old time gamer myself, I have zero issues whatsoever with the change in the game to better align with the current generations preferences.


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## Morrus (Jun 16, 2021)

I’m pretty sure gamers were mainly under 25 when I started too! I certainly was — I was 11!


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## lyle.spade (Jun 16, 2021)

Looking at the age breakdown, I now have to fully accept that I am an ancient grognard. This brings with it certain implied advantages and cachet, but it also makes clear my age. Oh boy.


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## Marc_C (Jun 16, 2021)

I'll continue posting my 2% contribution. 

It's very good that the demographics are getting younger (18-24). I was less active during that period. I became far more active *after* university.

Question: I'm guessing younger users (17 and less) visit EnWorld. Do you have data on this?


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## Paragon Lost (Jun 16, 2021)

Joy, I'm a 2 percenter. lol. Aging. Anyhow, interesting stats, I love to read stuff like this. Off to go for a ride on my motorcycle.


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## schneeland (Jun 16, 2021)

aco175 said:


> It is interesting to see.  Based on the posts I see, I would think that the age tends higher with most posts I see (mostly on the D&D page) tends towards 40s+ age



I believe forum regulars are significantly older than the general ENWorld "population" (I think there was a poll a while ago, but I don't recall specific details).


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## Nikosandros (Jun 16, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I’m pretty sure gamers were mainly under 25 when I started too! I certainly was — I was 11!



For sure!  My friends and I were all around 12 when we started playing and we certainly felt that we were of the right age!  

If I'm not mistaken, there has been a period in which the active player base has been older, but it was, correctly, seen as crisis for the sector...


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## darjr (Jun 16, 2021)

lyle.spade said:


> Looking at the age breakdown, I now have to fully accept that I am an ancient grognard. This brings with it certain implied advantages and cachet, but it also makes clear my age. Oh boy.



Even here!


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## Morrus (Jun 16, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> I'll continue posting my 2% contribution.
> 
> It's very good that the demographics are getting younger (18-24). I was less active during that period. I became far more active *after* university.
> 
> Question: I'm guessing younger users (17 and less) visit EnWorld. Do you have data on this?



No. GA doesn’t track under 18s.


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## Ghost2020 (Jun 16, 2021)

Oh goodness, I'm a seven-percenter!!

Very happy to see that the hobby is growing and has young blood to keep it alive!

I'd love to know the % of adults who got their kids into it, and they actually pick up the hobby versus just humoring us.


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## Marc_C (Jun 16, 2021)

Ghost2020 said:


> Oh goodness, I'm a seven-percenter!!
> 
> Very happy to see that the hobby is growing and has young blood to keep it alive!
> 
> I'd love to know the % of adults who got their kids into it, and they actually pick up the hobby versus just humoring us.



I would say 95% did a few RPG games with their kids. Did it stick? That is another question. Probably the same percentage as with a regular group of new players.


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## Marc_C (Jun 16, 2021)

To compare with 2019. Is EnWorld's readership shrinking or exploding?


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## Sacrosanct (Jun 16, 2021)

Ghost2020 said:


> Oh goodness, I'm a seven-percenter!!
> 
> Very happy to see that the hobby is growing and has young blood to keep it alive!
> 
> I'd love to know the % of adults who got their kids into it, and they actually pick up the hobby versus just humoring us.



My oldest son had no interest.  He's a console gamer and a huge sports guy.  My youngest son (now an adult himself) is a gamer and while doesn't do much ttrpging (his schedule), he is a fan, a critter, and plays lots of rpg video games.


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## Morrus (Jun 16, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> To compare with 2019. Is EnWorld's readership shrinking or exploding?



Neither of those two things.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 16, 2021)

My slice of the pie would be unacceptably small if it was, say, key lime or pecan.


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## Delazar (Jun 16, 2021)

Belgium represents!


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## Lanefan (Jun 16, 2021)

How is this data collected?  Country info is easy, via one's IP address; but age and gender?

Put another way, how does google know how old I am when nothing I generally use involves giving info to google?


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## Morrus (Jun 16, 2021)

Lanefan said:


> How is this data collected?  Country info is easy, via one's IP address; but age and gender?
> 
> Put another way, how does google know how old I am when nothing I generally use involves giving info to google?



You’d have to ask Google that!

I Googled “what does Google know about me?” and this was one of the many articles which came up:









						How to find out what Google knows about you and limit the data it collects
					

CNBC shows you how to discover the personal information Google knows about you, and how to limit that data if you don't want Google storing it.




					www.cnbc.com
				




Also I’m sure you and I have had this exact conversation before!


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## Kannik (Jun 16, 2021)

Wow, colour me surprised in seeing that age distribution.  I would not have guessed I'd be in such a small contingent.... though it bodes well for the continuation of the hobby!


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## ccs (Jun 16, 2021)

Lanefan said:


> How is this data collected?  Country info is easy, via one's IP address; but age and gender?
> 
> Put another way, how does google know how old I am when nothing I generally use involves giving info to google?



Are you online?  Then they've acquired your data....


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## aco175 (Jun 16, 2021)

I forgot what though.


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## Bagpuss (Jun 16, 2021)

Seems a lot of 7% and 2% folks are more talkative on the site...


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## Sacrosanct (Jun 16, 2021)

Bagpuss said:


> Seems a lot of 7% and 2% folks are more talkative on the site...



It's because the older we get, we think what we have to say is more and more important


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## darjr (Jun 16, 2021)

This site gets hit a TON for resources it has, like some of the “character creation guides”.

The cynical side of me thinks we should have a thread on each D&D rules topic, explaining it, the commentary that would follow in the thread would be cool too.


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## Morrus (Jun 16, 2021)

darjr said:


> The cynical side of me thinks we should have a thread on each D&D rules topic, explaining it, the commentary that would follow in the thread would be cool too.



We totally should. That's not cynical, that's super useful.


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## darjr (Jun 16, 2021)

Morrus said:


> We totally should. That's not cynical, that's super useful.



Cool. See the analytics page for the most hit pages and the rules ones already there show the way forward, I think, and what’s already been covered. I think they keep popping up because folks search google in the middle of their games, but that’s just a guess, it doesn’t matter why.


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## imagineGod (Jun 16, 2021)

Lanefan said:


> How is this data collected?  Country info is easy, via one's IP address; but age and gender?
> 
> Put another way, how does google know how old I am when nothing I generally use involves giving info to google?



Google spy on you with cookies. Each time you register on a website and add your age for legal reasons, that cookie is read by Google bots. Obviously, the legal cover are those cookie acceptance requests, most people just accept. 

To be truly stealthy, you need a paid VPN tunnel and clear cookies on each site you visit and ensure you never accept them in the first place.


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## Morrus (Jun 16, 2021)

Google _deduces_ a lot, too.


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## Gradine (Jun 16, 2021)

Morrus said:


> According to WotC, 40% of the player base is female and *just below 1% is non-binary.*







I'd be curious to see if WotC does demographics on players who identify as LGBTQ+. I have seen a lot of think pieces on how the queer folks are flocking to D&D in pretty large numbers. I imagine there's some co-variance there with the age demographics as well. It's weird, I remember joining back when I was in college and feeling very very young... now it appears I'm in the oldest 20%.


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## Tonguez (Jun 16, 2021)

Yeah definitely noticed that the board has gotten a lot younger this year than it felt like before - but then I’m in the 7% so the whole world feels that way these days 

[grognard]5e is more targeted to the kids rather than us serious grown ups though…[/grognard]


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## Morrus (Jun 16, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> Yeah definitely noticed that the board has gotten a lot younger this year than it felt like before - but then I’m in the 7% so the whole world feels that way these days
> 
> [grognard]5e is more targeted to the kids rather than us serious grown ups though…[/grognard]



1E was targeted at kids. D&D has always been targeted at kids. How old were you and your friends when you started gaming? I'll bet you weren't 46!


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## imagineGod (Jun 16, 2021)

Morrus said:


> 1E was targeted at kids. D&D has always been targeted at kids. How old were you and your friends when you started gaming? I'll bet you weren't 46!



I thought D&D was targeted at college aged adults based on reading the ruleset. 

3rd Edition is more technically complex, and 2nd even more so. Are kids getting dumber for the simplification of each new edition, I wonder.


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## Morrus (Jun 16, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> Are kids getting dumber for the simplification of each new edition, I wonder.



The suggestion that D&D is somehow making an entire generation of people less intelligent is ridiculous.


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## Gradine (Jun 16, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> I thought D&D was targeted at college aged adults based on reading the ruleset.
> 
> 3rd Edition is more technically complex, and 2nd even more so. Are kids getting dumber for the simplification of each new edition, I wonder.


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## Disgruntled Hobbit (Jun 16, 2021)

That just website visitors or forum vistors?
There a difference between the two?


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## Tonguez (Jun 16, 2021)

Morrus said:


> 1E was targeted at kids. D&D has always been targeted at kids. How old were you and your friends when you started gaming? I'll bet you weren't 46!



Yeah the grognard tags was to indicate it was a bit tongue-in-cheek

but yes I do acknowledge that I was 11 when the bullywugs caught my interest that said 3e always felt more grown up to me especially compared to 5e - _that probably personal bias and nostalgia rather than reality_


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## MGibster (Jun 16, 2021)

Morrus said:


> 1E was targeted at kids. D&D has always been targeted at kids. How old were you and your friends when you started gaming? I'll bet you weren't 46!




Come on, this guy is obviously a middle aged plumber and behind him I see a professional football player, an accountant, and a school teacher playing.  AD&D was marketed to a younger set but I don't think it was written for them.  But I don't like to think of more recent rules as being "dumbed down."  In my estimation, when you eschew obfuscation and make things easier to understand you're doing the world a favor.


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## MGibster (Jun 16, 2021)

I look at that chart and can't help but wonder.  Am I the creepy old guy hanging out at the game shop these days?


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## imagineGod (Jun 16, 2021)

Gradine said:


>



Is that your age in the meme? 

I always thought we are all younger and smarter than our parents, thus, play more complex games than them. But the trend these days is going downhill fast rules-wise 

And my apologies if you are one of those old people losing memory.


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## MGibster (Jun 16, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> I always thought we are all younger and smarter than our parents, thus, play more complex games than them. But the trend these days is going downhill fast rules-wise



I used to love playing games like Car Wars, Starfleet Battles, Battletech, etc., etc., etc. back in the 80s and 90s.  I had the opportunity to play some old school Battletech back in late 2019 and halfway through the game I was bored out of my mind.  It wasn't the complexity of the game that got me it was how slow it was.  These days I tend to prefer simple rules.  D&D is about as complex as I care to get now.


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## imagineGod (Jun 16, 2021)

I started collecting and playing older editions because I could not accept that my parents could do basic math better. No way.

So 2nd Edition had THAC0 (To Hit Armor Class Zero) that involved subtraction to determine attack success.

3rd Edition made it simpler with only additions used to beat Armor Class.

4th Edition, I am ashamed to admit I actually played and liked it.

Then with 5th Edition, we just roll Advantage since math is hard.

And 6th Edition is heading all digital assist with mobile computers to help do the math, because you, know, math is really hard.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 17, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> I thought D&D was targeted at college aged adults based on reading the ruleset.
> 
> 3rd Edition is more technically complex, and 2nd even more so. Are kids getting dumber for the simplification of each new edition, I wonder.



Academic standards have actually dramatically increased since D&D came out. Eighth graders in California are expected to be able to pass a standardized test in algebra nowadays, something I didn't learn until 10th grade.

My second grader spent part of the year learning coding at her very-much-not-fancy public school this year. (Virtually, of course.)


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 17, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> I always thought we are all younger and smarter than our parents, thus, play more complex games than them. But the trend these days is going downhill fast rules-wise



Don't confuse your tastes with the capabilities of the people who will be running the world when you're trying to remember where the bifocals on top of your head are. (They're on top of your head, I just told you.)


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 17, 2021)

MGibster said:


> I used to love playing games like Car Wars, Starfleet Battles, Battletech, etc., etc., etc. back in the 80s and 90s.  I had the opportunity to play some old school Battletech back in late 2019 and halfway through the game I was bored out of my mind.  It wasn't the complexity of the game that got me it was how slow it was.  These days I tend to prefer simple rules.  D&D is about as complex as I care to get now.



I loved Car Wars back in the day, but spending an hour moving little pieces of cardboard around on the sheet for a very simple battle was ridiculous. Computers and even phones can do it so much better and faster, allowing more actual play.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 17, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> Then with 5th Edition, we just roll Advantage since math is hard.



That's not why it was done. WotC was pretty clear on the reasoning for switching to Advantage/Disadvantage.


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## dragoner (Jun 17, 2021)

Grognards gonna grumble.

I have my Holmes basic on the shelf next to my 5e books, indeed the basic feels directed to more of younger set than 5e, nor does the math in it feel harder (then again I am a math person so it all feels easy to me). Nor do I feel people are getting dumber, people today don't need to churn butter, instead they can configure a device. Just my 7% worth.


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## cmad1977 (Jun 17, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> I started collecting and playing older editions because I could not accept that my parents could do basic math better. No way.
> 
> So 2nd Edition had THAC0 (To Hit Armor Class Zero) that involved subtraction to determine attack success.
> 
> ...




Imagine being so out of touch. 
Couldn’t be me.


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## Bagpuss (Jun 17, 2021)

Sacrosanct said:


> It's because the older we get, we think what we have to say is more and more important



Get off my lawn!


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## Bagpuss (Jun 17, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> 3rd Edition is more technically complex, and 2nd even more so. Are kids getting dumber for the simplification of each new edition, I wonder.




I thought they were making it easier for me, with less time on my hands, and ever increasing loss of brain cells as I creep into senility.


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## DrunkonDuty (Jun 17, 2021)

dragoner said:


> Grognards gonna grumble.




Damn right I am! 

What's with things nowadays? They aren't the same things that were things when I was young!  I demand all things be old things. Things that I don't understand are clearly indicative of the lower intelligence of young people!


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## dragoner (Jun 17, 2021)

DrunkonDuty said:


> Damn right I am!
> 
> What's with things nowadays? They aren't the same things that were things when I was young!  I demand all things be old things. Things that I don't understand are clearly indicative of the lower intelligence of young people!



We might be dinosaurs, but dinosaurs ruled the Earth until they went extinct, veritable legends in our own minds. Wait, is that an asteroid?


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## Tonguez (Jun 17, 2021)

MGibster said:


> Come on, this guy is obviously a middle aged plumber and behind him I see a professional football player, an accountant, and a school teacher playing.  AD&D was marketed to a younger set but I don't think it was written for them.  But I don't like to think of more recent rules as being "dumbed down."  In my estimation, when you eschew obfuscation and make things easier to understand you're doing the world a favor.



Yes but they also had this–


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 17, 2021)

TSR's marketing folks were only slightly better than their accountants.


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## MGibster (Jun 17, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> Yes but they also had this–



Sure.  I think we've had many, many heated <ahem> discussions around here regarding rules and art from the good old days that just wouldn't fly today though I don't believe advertisements are typically included.  In TSR's defense, they also feature women and girls in some of their print and television advertisements as players.  I mean women and girls who aren't wearing a cheetah print onesie or a tight silver futuristic outfit (see Elise Gygax's Gamma World photo).


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## Hurin88 (Jun 17, 2021)

Nearly 80% of the forumgoers are 34 or under.

Man these demographics make me feel old.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Jun 17, 2021)

I'm in the younger group of the two 39%s. Interesting that this site and the D&D community as a whole are getting younger and less and less male-dominant (in numbers, that is). All good changes, too (and no, I don't mean this offensively towards the Grognards on this site. It's just a matter of fact that hobbies need new players to continue on, and it's better for communities to not be so divided based on gender).


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## Eyes of Nine (Jun 17, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> 4th Edition, I am ashamed to admit I actually played and liked it.



Do not be ashamed! There are legions of us here on ENWorld and elsewhere. And 4th was a good game. Maybe not what people wanted or expected in their D&D; but it was a good game in and of itself.


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## MGibster (Jun 17, 2021)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> I'm in the younger group of the two 39%s. Interesting that this site and the D&D community as a whole are getting younger and less and less male-dominant (in numbers, that is). All good changes, too (and no, I don't mean this offensively towards the Grognards on this site. It's just a matter of life that hobbies need new players to continue on, and it's better for communities to not be so divided based on gender).



Back in 2013, Harley Davidson claims that the average age of their customer is 47 but others dispute that saying their average customer was over 50 at the time.  For more than a decade now, Harley Davidson has engaged in outreach to attract not only younger customers but also minorities and women as well but they're meeting with limited success.  Younger people tend to purchase motorcycles for more practical reasons including easy of transportation and cost whereas older customers purchase them for recreation and can afford the expense of a Harley.  So if Harley doesn't turn things around they're in for a world of hurt as their customers die off and aren't replaced by the next generation of riders.  

So I'm with you that it's a good thing younger people are the primary D&D customer.  I'm not the future of gaming, they are.  I don't always agree with the changes that cater to their preferences, but at the end of the day if you want to survive you've got to cater to your primary customer base.  No hard feelings from me.  And it's nice to see role playing games thrive again.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 17, 2021)

MGibster said:


> Back in 2013, Harley Davidson claims that the average age of their customer is 47 but others dispute that saying their average customer was over 50 at the time.  For more than a decade now, Harley Davidson has engaged in outreach to attract not only younger customers but also minorities and women as well but they're meeting with limited success.



Partnering with Aerosmith, of all acts, to promote the brand seems to be them doubling down on Baby Boomers and Gen X. Whoever is in charge of their outreach to younger consumers is getting paid to do very, very little real work.


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## Bolongo (Jun 17, 2021)

"the 18-24 group is the largest"
Really? Maybe by a fraction of a percent that the pie chart doesn't show?

"The EU in general is only about 5% of the user base."
Adding up just the EU countries in the table, I get 7.6%. Presumably there's some smaller countries that didn't get listed that would bump that total up a bit. (Considering that the whole chart only comes to 88.7%)


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## imagineGod (Jun 17, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Don't confuse your tastes with the capabilities of the people who will be running the world when you're trying to remember where the bifocals on top of your head are. (They're on top of your head, I just told you.)



We have to be hones,t, no need to be cute about the next generation that will lead the U. S A. Math allergy is an American problem. Probably, why each new edition of D&D targeted primarily at Americans is hiding away the math of the game.

Many a time, I met Asian kids more than happy to add numbers mentally, especially Chinese and Japanese youths  And many times, I have seen American teens pull out their mobile phone calculator to do something as simple as stacking bonuses in 4th edition.

Math allergies in the U.S A. are just another reason the world now looks to China. Over 1.6 billion people, that is the future, not the U.S.A

And, Whizbang, be grateful that there are  many Indian migrants in the medical profession to take care of you. Yes, the world's future heads East. The West is an Empire in decline.. Just India and China alone, two nations with a third of all the world's teenagers. That is the future D&D market. 

I mentioned several times on these forums, the next  D&D fantasy setting should by about mythic India. Kids in America need to look Eastwards.


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## imagineGod (Jun 17, 2021)

To ensure the next D&D is not dumbed down further mathematically, we need to introduce katas to American children.

My Indian teacher ensured I practiced both math kata and code kata.. That ensures you react almost instinctively, when you see numbers, you automatically know the totals. It is not magic, just a learned technique.

As simple as it sounds, _Kata_ involves deliberate, repetitive practice to master. In martial arts, _kata_ is choreographed patterns of movement that are practiced.


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## Imaculata (Jun 17, 2021)

I think the goal of D&D is to have fun roleplaying with your friends, not teaching math.


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## Bagpuss (Jun 17, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> I think the goal of D&D is to have fun roleplaying with your friends, not teaching math.



I liked it when the goal of D&D was to introduce the names of medieval polearms into the vocabulary of teenagers.


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## imagineGod (Jun 17, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> I think the goal of D&D is to have fun roleplaying with your friends, not teaching math.



We are talking basic addition and subtraction, not abstract algebra. Though I would love a revival of Al-Qadim, but with more authentic representation of the mathematically beautiful architecture from The Golden Age of Islam and less racist stereotypes of Middle Eastern culture. 

D&(D really needs to look East. The real world's youth demographics are learning heavily in that direction. 

One reason I love the Coriolis RPG ftom Free League for its Golden Age of Islam inspired Futurism. Prayers and science work well in that region of the world and the RPG brings that cultural harmony into space opera. With an aesthetics homage too.


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## Yora (Jun 17, 2021)

Hurin88 said:


> Nearly 80% of the forumgoers are 34 or under.
> 
> Man these demographics make me feel old.



Yet at Dragonsfoot, 37 makes me feel like a young newcommer.


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## Imaculata (Jun 17, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> D&D really needs to look East. The real world's youth demographics are learning heavily in that direction.




I don't know if that is true. That seems like a bold claim. But I myself would welcome more eastern influences in addition to the default pseudo-lord of the rings and Western fairytales that D&D mostly leans to. There is a treasure trove of myths and legends out there that would enrich D&D greatly. I own the complete illustrated Tales of 1001 Nights (one of many versions that exist) and it is truly wonderful. Since Wizards of the Coast is fully committed to wide representation, I'd love to see more eastern material.


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## BigZebra (Jun 17, 2021)

> [...]. Last year, 14% were female, so that's an increase of 3%.



A bit pedantic, but that isn't entirely correct. It's an increase of 3 percentile points, or 21%.


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## Mercador (Jun 17, 2021)

I feel old


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## Grendel_Khan (Jun 17, 2021)

I know it's virtually impossible to get this kind of data, but it would be amazing to get a breakdown of what people in different age groups are playing. D&D will always get the lion's share, but are younger players playing narrative games at a higher rate than older gamers? Or is it the opposite, since people sometimes need time in the trad/F20 trenches before they start pining for fewer rules?

I feel like we can all speculate in every direction, but it'd just be speculation.


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## Morrus (Jun 17, 2021)

Grendel_Khan said:


> I know it's virtually impossible to get this kind of data, but it would be amazing to get a breakdown of what people in different age groups are playing. D&D will always get the lion's share, but are younger players playing narrative games at a higher rate than older gamers? Or is it the opposite, since people sometimes need time in the trad/F20 trenches before they start pining for fewer rules?
> 
> I feel like we can all speculate in every direction, but it'd just be speculation.



It's not impossible, it's just expensive. If you have the budget you can survey anything. But reach doesn't come cheap.


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## Grendel_Khan (Jun 17, 2021)

MGibster said:


> Sure.  I think we've had many, many heated <ahem> discussions around here regarding rules and art from the good old days that just wouldn't fly today though I don't believe advertisements are typically included.  In TSR's defense, they also feature women and girls in some of their print and television advertisements as players.  I mean women and girls who aren't wearing a cheetah print onesie or a tight silver futuristic outfit (see Elise Gygax's Gamma World photo).




Can you imagine a TV commercial for a TTRPG now? Madness! Though I'm actually a tiny bit surprised that WotC isn't doing YouTube (etc.) ads.


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## MGibster (Jun 17, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Partnering with Aerosmith, of all acts, to promote the brand seems to be them doubling down on Baby Boomers and Gen X. Whoever is in charge of their outreach to younger consumers is getting paid to do very, very little real work.



Over the last few decades Harley Davidson has kind of painted themself into a corner.  As a brand, they are heavily based on identity as their bikes are highly customizable to individual preferences, they still have a reputation as the bike of choice for rebels, and they pride themselves on being made in America.  Seriously, if you want to show a character is a badass biker you usually put him or her on a Harley not a Honda.  (Honda had an advertising campaign with the tagline "You meet the nicest people on a Honda.)  But things change and who rides Harleys now?  Mostly old white men with a household income of $90,000 a year.  So HD is in a precarious position as they try to figure out how to attract a younger more diverse demographic without alienating what is currently their bread & butter which is old white dudes.  It's a difficult situation to be in.  

Games Workshop found themselves in a similar situation with Warhammer Fantasy Battles a few years back.  The player base was a bit older than it was for Warhammer40k and a lot of those players just weren't buying new models very often.  GW made the radical and somewhat risky decision of destroying the Warhammer Fantasy setting and staring with something entirely new.  They alienated a lot of their older players.  I loved the old setting but I realized something.  I didn't actually play Warhammer Fantasy and I never bought their models and was unlikely to do so in the future.  They replaced it with Age of Sigmar in 2015 which had a somewhat rocky start but has improved since then.  And it might have been a great decision.  I never bought Warhammer Fantasy models but I bought an Age of Sigmar starting army.  

I don't think WotC is too worried about what grognards think of the game and that's a good thing because I don't think we're their primary customers.  They're better served by focusing on providing the type of experience and rules that most of their customers actually want.  In twenty years I look forward to hearing the current crop of players complain about the changes that are made in 2041.


----------



## Blue (Jun 17, 2021)

Ghost2020 said:


> Oh goodness, I'm a seven-percenter!!
> 
> Very happy to see that the hobby is growing and has young blood to keep it alive!
> 
> I'd love to know the % of adults who got their kids into it, and they actually pick up the hobby versus just humoring us.



Both my kids play, one is venturing into DMing as well.  But alas, anything as old-fashioned as internet forums like ENworld does not catch their interest.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 17, 2021)

MGibster said:


> Over the last few decades Harley Davidson has kind of painted themself into a corner.  As a brand, they are heavily based on identity as their bikes are highly customizable to individual preferences, they still have a reputation as the bike of choice for rebels, and they pride themselves on being made in America.  Seriously, if you want to show a character is a badass biker you usually put him or her on a Harley not a Honda.  (Honda had an advertising campaign with the tagline "You meet the nicest people on a Honda.)  But things change and who rides Harleys now?  Mostly old white men with a household income of $90,000 a year.  So HD is in a precarious position as they try to figure out how to attract a younger more diverse demographic without alienating what is currently their bread & butter which is old white dudes.  It's a difficult situation to be in.



They should be chasing movies and television productions down the street, offering Harleys to anyone with the right demo.

And -- _shudder _-- they should be doing the same thing with social media influencers, too. My kids know more YouTubers than they do film or television actors.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 17, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> We have to be hones,t, no need to be cute about the next generation that will lead the U. S A. Math allergy is an American problem. Probably, why each new edition of D&D targeted primarily at Americans is hiding away the math of the game.



I think you need to broaden your pool of acquaintances.

Post-Common Core, nearly every school kid in America (most states use the Common Core State Standards, which were designed jointly by state level committees) learns Singaporean math educational techniques (usually referred to as "Singapore math").

I'm not allergic to math by any means and my rising ninth grader can do stuff in his head, on the fly, that I have to sit down and puzzle out with pen and paper before I can actually figure out the answer.


imagineGod said:


> Many a time, I met Asian kids more than happy to add numbers mentally, especially Chinese and Japanese youths  And many times, I have seen American teens pull out their mobile phone calculator to do something as simple as stacking bonuses in 4th edition.
> 
> Math allergies in the U.S A. are just another reason the world now looks to China. Over 1.6 billion people, that is the future, not the U.S.A
> 
> ...



This is a very weird tangent. No one is attacking immigrants or anyone of Asian descent. I resent your baseless implication that I have some sort of issue with either.


----------



## dragoner (Jun 17, 2021)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> I'm in the younger group of the two 39%s. Interesting that this site and the D&D community as a whole are getting younger and less and less male-dominant (in numbers, that is). All good changes, too (and no, I don't mean this offensively towards the Grognards on this site. It's just a matter of fact that hobbies need new players to continue on, and it's better for communities to not be so divided based on gender).



All true, and about the grognard grumbling, it is us more than anything else, time takes its toll, so do not worry. I saw a meme of the perfect example: Terminator 1984 "I'll Be Back." 2019 "Ow My Back."


----------



## J.Quondam (Jun 17, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> We have to be hones,t, no need to be cute about the next generation that will lead the U. S A. Math allergy is an American problem. Probably, why each new edition of D&D targeted primarily at Americans is hiding away the math of the game.




Meh, I doubt it. While innumeracy is certainly a problem in the modern US, linking it to the D&D math is a stretch. I could be wrong, but I honestly doubt there's a whole lot of overlap between people drawn to D&D and those exhibiting legitimate math deficiencies.

The problem with D&D math is not that it's "hard." The problem with D&D math is that it's basically _pointless_. Why waste time fiddling with lots of little bonuses and penalties (which don't even model anything especially well), when we already know that end result is going to be a smallish numerical offset? Just make a Dis/Advantage roll and be done with it. Seriously, if one is smart enough to do a a few steps of basic arithmetic, one is smart enough to intuit one's way past that arithmetic, and just skip straight to the answer. (Estimation, after all, is a useful mathematical skill, too!)

It's got little to do with innumeracy, and everything to do with the simple fact that, over the decades, experienced designers have determined that most players are interested in the _game_ part of the game, not a bunch of fiddly, pointless arithmetic.


----------



## dragoner (Jun 17, 2021)

J.Quondam said:


> Meh, I doubt it.



Same here, and I am education adjacent. It is not math per se, it is the lack of investment in education. America does a feel good about stem advert, while other countries subsidize stem education, and education in general; which America abandoned in the Reagan 80's. So you meet kids that can't reduce a fraction, except they have fundamental literacy problems as well, which makes it unlikely they are reading D&D books.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 17, 2021)

Woah, why is this now a thread about the American education system? There are plenty of websites where you can discuss politics. This is not one of them. Drop it, please.


----------



## Umbran (Jun 17, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> Many a time, I met Asian kids more than happy to add numbers mentally...




*Mod Note:*
"Asian people are good at math," is just one more stereotype.  That it seems "positive" does not mean it isn't putting people in a box based on their ethnicity.  Please don't do this on this site.


----------



## DrunkonDuty (Jun 17, 2021)

J.Quondam said:


> It's got little to do with innumeracy, and everything to do with the simple fact that, over the decades, experienced designers have determined that most players are interested in the _game_ part of the game, not a bunch of fiddly, pointless arithmetic.



But I like the fiddly, pointless, arithmetic. I play HERO! Or as Carl Carlson might put it:









						the dank - Oh, but the dank, Moe! The dank!
					

Oh, but the dank, Moe! The dank! - the dank




					memegenerator.net


----------



## J.Quondam (Jun 17, 2021)

DrunkonDuty said:


> But I like the fiddly, pointless, arithmetic. I play HERO! Or as Carl Carlson might put it:




Yeah... To be honest, I used to, as well! 
But then I started getting old, and my brain started shrinking.


----------



## DrunkonDuty (Jun 18, 2021)

Dude, I hear you. Getting old is balls.


----------



## darjr (Jun 18, 2021)

Same


----------



## Fandabidozi (Jun 18, 2021)

Yay, I’m in the top 7% for something. Or is that bottom 7%. Oh, well it’s 7% and I’ll take it!

Right, I’m off to watch Val Doonican videos on YouTube while sucking my Fishermans Friends.


----------



## aramis erak (Jun 18, 2021)

Grendel_Khan said:


> Can you imagine a TV commercial for a TTRPG now? Madness! Though I'm actually a tiny bit surprised that WotC isn't doing YouTube (etc.) ads.



I saw an advert for the sspherical dice KS on youtube within the last week. Not the same content as the KS video, either.

Not an RPG proper, but definitely aimed at RPGers.


----------



## MGibster (Jun 18, 2021)

DrunkonDuty said:


> Dude, I hear you. Getting old is balls.



It beats the alternative.


----------



## DrunkonDuty (Jun 18, 2021)

MGibster said:


> It beats the alternative.



Good point.


----------



## Yora (Jun 18, 2021)

Now I am curious about the age distribution of people on the forum. I am getting the impression that it's very different.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Jun 18, 2021)

Man. I am getting old


----------



## darjr (Jun 18, 2021)

DrunkonDuty said:


> Good point.



No it’s not! Vampirism would be great!


----------



## J.Quondam (Jun 18, 2021)

darjr said:


> No it’s not! Vampirism would be great!




D&D, you see, is just an elaborate ploy to entice newbs into the hobby so grognards can drain them of their precious bodily fluids.

Who knew that "Reality" was actually a Domain of Dread??


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 18, 2021)

J.Quondam said:


> D&D, you see, is just an elaborate ploy to entice newbs into the hobby so grognards can drain them of their precious bodily fluids.



Bleah. Too much congealed Mountain Dew in the system.


J.Quondam said:


> Who knew that "Reality" was actually a Domain of Dread??



Anyone who was around for 2020.


----------



## Umbran (Jun 18, 2021)

darjr said:


> No it’s not! Vampirism would be great!




Dude, you _know_ the adventures are balanced so the PCs will have to work at it, but will in the end they will force you into gaseous form and then fill your coffin with holy water.  It won't be a pretty end.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Jun 18, 2021)

darjr said:


> No it’s not! Vampirism would be great!



not for anyone else other than the vampire...


----------



## imagineGod (Jun 19, 2021)

Speaking of demographics, there are people here who are very experienced. here who may offer insights.

Which demographics are the best target for Third Party Kickstarters? There are too many Kickstarters I backed that I ended up selling because nobody in my circle seems interested in playing those games.

5th Edition is usually a sure winner on Kickstarter, but not always. *Connor Alexander's Coyote and Crow Kickstarter *is the best case study about a first time creator, using an unknown d12 game system, telling rarely told stories of Native American Futurism and able rake in over a million Dollars.

On the other hand, we have a very well known company, *Green Ronin*, who launched a popular romantic fantasy line, first seen in the True20 era of the d20 OGL, followed by a successful AGE system and most recently a 5e conversion, but they struggled to even cross $40,000.



Most recently, yet another 5e project was launched, by an unknown creator, the product being some variant *Wizard of Oz RPG,* and already crossed $40,000 in three days (still slow compared to Free League games that fund in hours or minutes).


THE CONNUNDRUM
Speaking of a funded but 5 years late Kickstarter, that I backed but will never play its unique system now, so am advising the creator to try a popular conversion to either 5e or the Free League d6 for a re-launch.

Does anyone have any idea, why 5e is not a sure winner for Third Party Publishers anymore?

Are buyers avoiding spending on Third Parties to focus on purchasing more official 5e books from WoTC?


----------



## Zardnaar (Jun 19, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> Speaking of demographics, there are people here who are very experienced. here who may offer insights.
> 
> Which demographics are the best target for Third Party Kickstarters? There are too many Kickstarters I backed that I ended up selling because nobody in my circle seems interested in playing those games.
> 
> ...




 Probably to many jumping on the bandwagon. 

 Also glut. How much RPG material do you need? I think I have 30 odd 5E books most barely used or even read.


----------



## imagineGod (Jun 19, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> Probably to many jumping on the bandwagon.
> 
> Also glut. How much RPG material do you need? I think I have 30 odd 5E books most barely used or even read.



Thanks for the response. I am thinking along similar lines. I think many of the 24 to 44 combined demographic groups have too much 5e already. 

Then the over 45s probably even still have that early d20 glut from the DnD3e era. 

So the primary market could be the 18s. And likely they never heard of Green Ronin, so without that brand recognition, Green Ronin is now just any other TPP. That is as big fall for them. 

I am impressed with the Free League (Fria Ligan) publisher , coming from an unknown Swedish brand to a big player on Kickstarter.  And now they are doing 5e too, with a successful half million Dollars Symbaroum 5e Kickstarter.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 19, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> Which demographics are the best target for Third Party Kickstarters? There are too many Kickstarters I backed that I ended up selling because nobody in my circle seems interested in playing those games.
> 
> 5th Edition is usually a sure winner on Kickstarter, but not always. *Connor Alexander's Coyote and Crow Kickstarter *is the best case study about a first time creator, using an unknown d12 game system, telling rarely told stories of Native American Futurism and able rake in over a million Dollars.
> 
> ...



You're harping on about this is a lot of different threads right now. I think maybe you should start your own thread about why games should all be 5E.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 19, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> On the other hand, we have a very well known company, *Green Ronin*, who launched a popular romantic fantasy line, first seen in the True20 era of the d20 OGL, followed by a successful AGE system and most recently a 5e conversion, but they struggled to even cross $40,000.



Why did they need to cross $40k? That more than covered their printing costs and they don't have anything special they were unlocking beyond that.

Blue Rose 5E has been available as a PDF from Drive Thru RPG for months and it's a Silver seller there. The new version has been dissected and praised by folks over at RPG.net, where there's more of an audience for the game than here at ENWorld. (Green Ronin in general has diminished in prominence here, since it went all-in on Pathfinder and AGE.)

More importantly, most fans of Blue Rose are playing the two previous versions (True20 and AGE), both of which continue to chug along just fine. Blue Rose 5E is a niche product, although a well-respected one with some additions to the game, like narrative wealth, that lots of groups might find worth incorporating. (As many 5E groups agree, wealth in 5E is kind of pointless. Blue Rose 5E stops screwing around and says "yeah, break your characters into wealth bands and just let them have anything in their economic tier without counting copper pieces.")

While I'm sure Green Ronin would have been fine with a million-dollar campaign, it's not at all necessary and raising $40k for a product that has been out, in various versions, for months or years, is only a "failure" in a very weird, specific sense.


imagineGod said:


> Most recently, yet another 5e project was launched, by an unknown creator, the product being some variant *Wizard of Oz RPG,* and already crossed $40,000 in three days (still slow compared to Free League games that fund in hours or minutes).
> View attachment 138493



If you look at the comments from supporters, both on Kickstarter and on message boards (we have to different threads on this campaign here at ENWorld), you'll see this is a product that appeals to old-school Oz fans. It's a small but passionate fanbase and many of us -- I'm part of the fanbase -- have been waiting for public domain content vultures to knock it off with the "it's Oz, but _edgy_" nonsense of the past few years. A pure, Baum-only take on the setting is very, very exciting for a very specific group of nerds, many of whom are happy to drop money on Oz stuff. (My biggest Oz expense is a complete run of the Books of Wonder recreations of the first runs of the series from a few decades ago, and I love 'em.)


imagineGod said:


> Does anyone have any idea, why 5e is not a sure winner for Third Party Publishers anymore?



Why is soda not a sure fire winner? Why are action movies not a sure fire winner? Why are pizza places not a sure fire winner?

There's a bunch of reasons, and cherry-picking two campaigns to create a trend doesn't really work. 

Sometimes campaigns are run by people who clearly will not be able to deliver what they're saying. Sometimes their ideas are terrible. Sometimes the people involved are toxic pieces of crap and word has gotten around. Sometimes their ideas are great and their implementation is crap. Sometimes people are running wildly unrealistic campaigns (I have a friend who's trying to charge $45+ for a book of photos of a niche celebrity without any communication with backers or explanations of why he needs to collect $50k to start production). Sometimes the campaigns are for things that are basically duplicates of what's already out there (a whole lot of dice makers, this means you).


imagineGod said:


> Are buyers avoiding spending on Third Parties to focus on purchasing more official 5e books from WoTC?



This is a hell of a leap, man. I've Kickstarted more game stuff than I care to think about, am nowhere near the most prolific backer even in my personal gaming circles, and all gaming spending is in the same bucket for me. WotC has three whole books I'm buying this fall, the most I've ever purchased in a row other than the core books from them, but that in no way impacts what I Kickstart or don't. I've got four Kickstarted books coming between now and next March.

If there _is_ a downturn in overall Kickstarter numbers, it would likely be due to larger economic factors relating to the pandemic or a general maturing of the 5E market and folks looking at their straining book shelves and saying "yeah, this is probably enough for now, unless something amazing comes along." But that latter factor would impact WotC, too, and from what we in the public can see, it certainly doesn't look like sales are slowing down.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 19, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> Also glut. How much RPG material do you need? I think I have 30 odd 5E books most barely used or even read.



I purge about once a year, sending stuff off to Noble Knight. I'm trying to keep my shelf to stuff I will use, except for a few exceptional cases, like the 1E commemorative books or stuff like the upcoming Oz 5E stuff (I don't expect to use it, but I literally became an Oz fan the same month I started playing D&D, and I can't pass this one up).


----------



## Bagpuss (Jun 21, 2021)

DrunkonDuty said:


> But I like the fiddly, pointless, arithmetic. I play HERO! Or as Carl Carlson might put it:



I learned more Excel making my Champions character than at any other time.


----------



## DrunkonDuty (Jun 22, 2021)

Bagpuss said:


> I learned more Excel making my Champions character than at any other time.




Me too! I've recently been working on a HERO character sheet but I've hit a point (I think) where I'll have to learn how to program for Excel to get it to do what I want.


----------



## Misterque (Jun 24, 2021)

Finally, I am in the 2% woot!


----------



## Eyes of Nine (Jun 25, 2021)

Misterque said:


> Finally, I am in the 2% woot!



And you didn't need to earn a nickel more than you are now


----------



## Wraethrax (Nov 12, 2021)

Late to this party, but I don't buy WOTC demographics that we have a 40% female player base.  I'm pretty embedded in the community and I just don't see it.  I think it's certainly better than it ever has been, but I'm feeling closer to 25-30% at best.


----------



## Morrus (Nov 12, 2021)

Wraethrax said:


> Late to this party, but I don't buy WOTC demographics that we have a 40% female player base.  I'm pretty embedded in the community and I just don't see it.  I think it's certainly better than it ever has been, but I'm feeling closer to 25-30% at best.



I mean, clearly no Americans play D&D. I’ve not seen a single one here in decades.


----------



## MGibster (Nov 12, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I mean, clearly no Americans play D&D. I’ve not seen a single one here in decades.



We're a pretty loud people.  You must have heard us at least.


----------



## MGibster (Nov 12, 2021)

Wraethrax said:


> Late to this party, but I don't buy WOTC demographics that we have a 40% female player base. I'm pretty embedded in the community and I just don't see it. I think it's certainly better than it ever has been, but I'm feeling closer to 25-30% at best.



In truth, 25-30% would have been my guess as well but I'm not exactly shocked that WotC had 40% of their respondents asay they were women.  I learned a long time ago that I shouldn't make assumptions about the big picture based on my own experiences.


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 12, 2021)

Wraethrax said:


> Late to this party, but I don't buy WOTC demographics that we have a 40% female player base.  I'm pretty embedded in the community and I just don't see it.  I think it's certainly better than it ever has been, but I'm feeling closer to 25-30% at best.




 A few don't play in public. Private Facebook groups and home games.


----------



## Fenris-77 (Nov 12, 2021)

I'd be really curious to see what post total by age bracket looks like.


----------



## Tun Kai Poh (Nov 12, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I mean, clearly no Americans play D&D. I’ve not seen a single one here in decades.



Only one white guy plays RPGs!

This is based on my observation of roleplayers...here in Malaysia.


----------



## Mercurius (Nov 15, 2021)

@Morrus , forgive me for not reading seven pages to see if the question has been answered, but how much has the site increased in readership? Specifically, I'm wondering if, say, that 7% of 45-54 year olds represents a small number than in years past. Meaning, are the overall numbers just going up enough to make the percentages shift, or are the older players fazing out?


----------



## Ancalagon (Mar 16, 2022)

I'm responding to this now because you referred this thread in another thread...

I think that the slightly younger age is a good thing,  but the gender ratios are... not so great.  Clearly it's not _terrible_ (because if it was, the number would be closer to zero), but is there something we aren't doing right as a community that is keeping women at bay?


----------



## Morrus (Mar 16, 2022)

Ancalagon said:


> I'm responding to this now because you referred this thread in another thread...
> 
> I think that the slightly younger age is a good thing,  but the gender ratios are... not so great.  Clearly it's not _terrible_ (because if it was, the number would be closer to zero), but is there something we aren't doing right as a community that is keeping women at bay?



Yeah like I said in the OP, still work to be done. As you know, we work really hard to make this place inclusive.

The good news is it was 13% three years ago, 17% two years ago, and 19% last year, so it is slowly increasing.

Here's 2021.


----------



## South by Southwest (Mar 16, 2022)

This fascinates me. Please forgive me if this is too too tangential (and I won't whine if the post gets deleted), but I wonder how these numbers compare to other RPG forums. The most recent data I readily could find on D&D growth has 40% of players (including DMs) female.

Oh, goody! A GameRant link.

What it _doesn't_ say, though, is what percent of RPG _forum_ _users_ are female. Playing the game is one thing; getting so into it that you start posting on forums is another. Have you any data on what the numbers are like in other forums? Intuitively, I'd be surprised if EN World actually lags behind others: you've focused so hard on it.

Another thing I ran into is the difficulty in finding any racial demographics. To my untrained and unobservant eye, it seems less popular among minorities in the U.S., but I have no data to support or undercut that. I'd hope there's been at least some meaningful progress on this, but who knows?? When I try Googling for it, all I find are analyses of racial demographics _within the imaginary worlds of the game_, but nothing recent about racial demographics of the players. Have studies been done on this? Anyone got a link?


----------



## aramis erak (Mar 16, 2022)

Marc_C said:


> I would say 95% did a few RPG games with their kids. Did it stick? That is another question. Probably the same percentage as with a regular group of new players.



I know both my kids have GM'd for groups I've not been a part of... including teaching newbs. Both before they hit 18...


----------



## Morrus (Mar 16, 2022)

South by Southwest said:


> Have you any data on what the numbers are like in other forums?



None whatsoever. Sorry!


----------



## aramis erak (Mar 16, 2022)

imagineGod said:


> I thought D&D was targeted at college aged adults based on reading the ruleset.
> 
> 3rd Edition is more technically complex, and 2nd even more so. Are kids getting dumber for the simplification of each new edition, I wonder.



Maximum readability in the population is to write to an 8th grade level. Adults below that reading level are unlikely to be reading for non-work/non-school purposes, and of the literate population in the US, most have 8th grade or higher reading levels.



MGibster said:


> Back in 2013, Harley Davidson claims that the average age of their customer is 47 but others dispute that saying their average customer was over 50 at the time.



Probably arithmetic mean vs mode...


Grendel_Khan said:


> Can you imagine a TV commercial for a TTRPG now? Madness! Though I'm actually a tiny bit surprised that WotC isn't doing YouTube (etc.) ads.



I've seen MTG ads galore on YouTube, and a couple for D&D. About a 20:1 ratio. Wrath of (something)... I tend to ignore commercials.


----------



## S'mon (Mar 16, 2022)

Not enough old Brits.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Mar 17, 2022)

I hate seeing my age group getting smaller as I get older.  Old farts role-play too, they are just grumpy about it.   _S_


----------



## Eyes of Nine (Mar 17, 2022)

Hand of Evil said:


> I hate seeing my age group getting smaller as I get older.  Old farts role-play too, they are just grumpy about it.   _S_



I hate seeing people in the Remembrance thread who die who are near my age or younger...


----------



## TerraDave (Mar 17, 2022)

_Having read through the thread again..._

The target audience for D&D--except for a brief period in the mid 1980s--has always been young adults. 

In practice, the audience tended to age with the game, paralleling comic books, and collectable toys and games. 

5e finally reversed this trend, hence all the huge success. That doesn't mean that they didn't need us oldsters to DM and generally spread the good word. 

Look at the forums. 88% of views of these mostly younger readers. In the millions. So they must be getting something out of us grognards arguing.


----------



## J.Quondam (Mar 17, 2022)

TerraDave said:


> _Having read through the thread again..._
> 
> The target audience for D&D--except for a brief period in the mid 1980s--has always been young adults.
> 
> ...



I wonder, though... Do most of those visitors really read all the arguing in the forum itself? If i had to guess, I'd thin that most of the traffic sticks to reading the news.

_"No, really! I only read EN World for the articles!"_​​_._​


----------



## Bagpuss (Mar 17, 2022)

J.Quondam said:


> most of the traffic sticks to reading the news
> _._​




This website has news articles?


----------



## MGibster (Mar 17, 2022)

Bagpuss said:


> This website has news articles?



More people get their news from ENWorld than probably should.


----------



## Eyes of Nine (Mar 18, 2022)

MGibster said:


> More people get their news from ENWorld than probably should.



I definitely get 99% of my D&D news from this site.


----------



## aramis erak (Mar 18, 2022)

Eyes of Nine said:


> I definitely get 99% of my D&D news from this site.



about 40% for me; another 40% from RPGG, and 10% from COTI... with the other 10% being via various other sources. Including Youtube and Google News on my Android phone.


----------



## Eyes of Nine (Mar 18, 2022)

aramis erak said:


> about 40% for me; another 40% from RPGG, and 10% from COTI... with the other 10% being via various other sources. Including Youtube and Google News on my Android phone.



I'll tell you where I don't get my D&D news from - my FLGS. I went in to order Netherdeep, and they were like - oh no, the next book is Monsters of the Multiverse in May. And then he looked up Netherdeep and was like... "oh"


----------



## aramis erak (Mar 18, 2022)

Eyes of Nine said:


> I'll tell you where I don't get my D&D news from - my FLGS. I went in to order Netherdeep, and they were like - oh no, the next book is Monsters of the Multiverse in May. And then he looked up Netherdeep and was like... "oh"



My FLGS tells me nothing about D&D... because they know I'm not a D&D guy. 
And I'm usually better informed than they about the games I do care about.


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## MGibster (Mar 18, 2022)

Eyes of Nine said:


> I'll tell you where I don't get my D&D news from - my FLGS. I went in to order Netherdeep, and they were like - oh no, the next book is Monsters of the Multiverse in May. And then he looked up Netherdeep and was like... "oh"



To be fair, if your FLGS is anything like mine, D&D isn't exactly their bread and butter.  They make most of their money moving other products.


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## Eyes of Nine (Mar 19, 2022)

REPEAT


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## Eyes of Nine (Mar 19, 2022)

MGibster said:


> To be fair, if your FLGS is anything like mine, D&D isn't exactly their bread and butter.  They make most of their money moving other products.



Well, that's fair. They are really all about Magic, Board Games, and Comic books. 

But D&D is the clear leader in their RPG category (at least based on the amount of shelf space it gets compared to other games). And I was talking to their GAMES BUYER. Not sure what would have happened if I hadn't gone in - maybe they wouldn't have gotten any Netherdeep at all?!?


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## darkwillow (Mar 26, 2022)

I trust this a lot more than google









						How long have you been gaming?
					

A quick, informal poll. A little different to those age polls in that it’s just asking how long you have been playing tabletop role playing games (specifically TRPGs - not boardgames, wargames, video games, live action, etc).  If you feel inclined, explain below what your first game  was (if you...




					www.enworld.org


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## darkwillow (Mar 26, 2022)

The other thing I find interest is you have 5M per year on your website.  According to alexa enworld is 
#79,365 in global internet engagement with 1:46 daily time on the site.

But take a niche DnD website Foundry (which is not a web product, its client installed), they are
#41,255 in global internet engagement with 3:55 daily time on the site.

I think you must be counting a lot of bots, teenage bots at that


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## J.Quondam (Mar 26, 2022)

darkwillow said:


> The other thing I find interest is you have 5M per year on your website.  According to alexa enworld is
> #79,365 in global internet engagement with 1:46 daily time on the site.
> 
> But take a niche DnD website Foundry (which is not a web product, its client installed), they are
> ...



Not sure of your point? ENWorld is fundamentally a news site. If you feel some burning need to compare site traffic, at least compare sites that have similar usage models.

Also protip: provide links to your sources.


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## Waller (Mar 26, 2022)

darkwillow said:


> I trust this a lot more than google
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're confused. You're comparing forum posters with news page readers. Measuring two different things.

(And Alexa data is notoriously nonsense. You can triple it by just adding one person with an Alexa toolbar.)


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