# The "Price That Magic Item" Game!



## Mistwell (Apr 7, 2007)

The Magic Item Compendium radically changes the pricing on some old magic item, and introduces a lot (500) of new magic items that intentionally do not follow a fixed pricing formula.

So let's play a game.  I'm going to post some magic items from that book (in groups based on a theme, like "Items for your Feet"), and you tell me what you think the price for that item should be (as if a PC purchased them, not made them).

You cannot look up the item in the Magic Item Compendium.  No cheating.  And I'd ask that you follow the spirit of that rule as well as the letter.  You can use the pricing guidelines in the DMG, items in the DMG, or items in other books.  But you cannot check the actual price in the MIC.  That would spoil the fun.

After a few days, I will then close that group out, post the actual prices from the MIC, and we can all discuss if that is an outrageous price or not.  Then, assuming the thread continues, I'll post another group.

I won't be posting all the text for an item, or all the items, just a summary of some selected ones.  If I make a mistake in my summary by leaving something out, I apologize in advance.


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## Mistwell (Apr 7, 2007)

GROUP ONE "THINGS FOR YOUR FEET"

1. Sandals of Sprinting - 3xday swift action to gain +30 enhancement bonus to land speed (max double your speed) until start of your next turn.

2. Boots of Sidestepping - 3xday swift action extra 5-foot step.  Can use even if already moved, and doesn't prevent movement after use (even a regular 5' step).

3. Boots of Agile Leaping - Constant +Dex to Jump checks instead of Strength.  If you have at least 5 ranks in Balance, constant stand up from prone as swift action, and standing from prone doesn't provoke attack of opportunity.

4. Cloudwalker Anklets - Constant Air Walk (as spell), can benefit from effect even if wildshaped.

5. Acrobat Boots - Constant +2 tumble checks.  3 charges/day enhancement bonus to land speed for 1 rd.  Bonus depends on charges you expend: 1 charge = +10, 2 = +15, 3= +20.

6. Skirmisher Boots - 2xday make single extra melee or ranged attack using full BAB, after having moved at least 10 feet from space you started turn (mount movement doesn't count).  Also, if you have the skirmash special ability (scout), constant +2 damage when skirmishing.

7. Quicksilver Boots - 2xday swift action to move up to your land speed (as if using a move action, but not taking your move action), and gain concealment against Attacks of Opportunity caused by that movement, and can move over liquid without falling into it as long as you start and end the movement on solid ground.

8. Boots of the Battle Charger - 2xday make charge attack as a standard action instead of full-round action.  Can only move your speed, not double your speed.  Must make the attack in the round you activate the boots.  Also, if you have a magic item that grants enhancement bonus to Dex, you can move across terrain and through squares occupied by allies when making this standard action charge.

9. Boots of Swift Passage - 5 x day move action to teleport without error up to 20 feet in any direction (need line of sight and effect, can't be an object or creature in destination, cannot bring other creatures with you).

10. Steadfast Boots - Constant +4 bonus on checks to avoid bull rush, overrun, or trip.  Also, if carrying two-handed weapon, constant treatment as if readied weapon against a charge (double damage if you hit), even if weapon cannot normally be set against charges.


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## Slaved (Apr 7, 2007)

Just to make sure, is it ok if I give the maximum price I would be willing to spend for the item? Or is that not what you are going for?


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## Mistwell (Apr 7, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> Just to make sure, is it ok if I give the maximum price I would be willing to spend for the item? Or is that not what you are going for?




Sure.  Any level of discussion about the items is fine.


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## lottrbacchus (Apr 8, 2007)

great thread, i'm interested to see how it works.  

i'd like participants to also post their math if they used a formula.  'normal' magic items are hard  enough for me to figure out.  how much extra is it for swift?  

and teleport spell as a move action?  that has to be huge! a ring of invisibility is, what, almost twice the calculatable price?  i'd say this would have to be at least double.

[whine=i also want to point out how interesting it is #9 is teleport without error instead of dimension door.  why do they have to use a spell 3 levels higher when you are only going 20 feet and have to be able to see the area?  oh, that's right, because while everything else is getting ridiculously overpowered, dimension door remains stupidly broken.] WHERE IS MY PONY? [whine]


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## Slaved (Apr 8, 2007)

Ok, I wrote out long descriptions for each and gave reasonings for the prices but then the post went away.   

This will be much shorter unfortunately.



> 1. Sandals of Sprinting - 3xday swift action to gain +30 enhancement bonus to land speed (max double your speed) until start of your next turn.




Basically a first level spell. It is limited to making charges a little longer and maybe helping to flank now and then since the duration is so short.

The book says about 1kgp, I would likely not go above 300 or 350. They are nice early on but the boot slot has much better options than these.



> 2. Boots of Sidestepping - 3xday swift action extra 5-foot step. Can use even if already moved, and doesn't prevent movement after use (even a regular 5' step).




Since these allow a character to make a full attack and then move too far away for the other person to do the same I would not allow these.



> 3. Boots of Agile Leaping - Constant +Dex to Jump checks instead of Strength. If you have at least 5 ranks in Balance, constant stand up from prone as swift action, and standing from prone doesn't provoke attack of opportunity.




The first ability is almost a non-ability while the second is very nice. The are still taking up an important slot for melee characters though and tripping has not been very common by opponents in my experience.

My maximum, and only for a specific character type, would be 650gp. I still feel that +1 to all saves is stronger. If they were around 250gp or less they might be fun options to have for a good number of low level characters even if it did not come in handy.



> 4. Cloudwalker Anklets - Constant Air Walk (as spell), can benefit from effect even if wildshaped.




Now this is tough. The spell requires the dm to pay more attention to wind than may be normal, but that is a pretty minor factor and might enhance the game besides, but it is also not well defined for some situations such as tripping.

The book price would be about 84kgp I think, which is very hefty.

Being able to walk over embattlements and rain down death from above with ranged attacks more or less with impunity is a hefty benefit however.

It seems like an item that would not be too bad around level 8 - 12 though, depending on the game. So how about an even 32.5kgp? That way it is only really available awhile after all of the casters have some flying spells and a large number of creatures can fly besides.

At will flying like that is hard to judge though. In a campaign that is mostly outdoors and has enemies with poor ranged attacks they will ruin the game while in a dungeon crawl game they might not even be worth paying 5kgp for.



> 5. Acrobat Boots - Constant +2 tumble checks. 3 charges/day enhancement bonus to land speed for 1 rd. Bonus depends on charges you expend: 1 charge = +10, 2 = +15, 3= +20.




+2 tumble checks is nice but that is a pretty minor speed increase. Is this an unnamed bonus to tumble? If so then I'll go for the number as the other speed boosting boots and say 350gp. If it is named then that might go down depending on the type.



> 6. Skirmisher Boots - 2xday make single extra melee or ranged attack using full BAB, after having moved at least 10 feet from space you started turn (mount movement doesn't count). Also, if you have the skirmash special ability (scout), constant +2 damage when skirmishing.




So basically for a nonscout you can charge and make an extra attack twice a day, for maximal effect at least.

Every scout I have seen has been ranged but they could do that as well. +2 damage to all skirmish damage is nice though and it would be one of the few ways to get skirmish damage multiple times in a round. Move 10', shoot off 2 arrows at full attack with full skirmish damage +2, twice a day?

If I was a scout I think I'd be willing to pay 6kgp pretty easily. It would really depend on how much that +2 was increasing my damage though, the scouts I have seen generally had most of their damage coming from skirmish but choosing between the bow going from +1 to +2 or these boots the extra +1 wins out handily.



> 7. Quicksilver Boots - 2xday swift action to move up to your land speed (as if using a move action, but not taking your move action), and gain concealment against Attacks of Opportunity caused by that movement, and can move over liquid without falling into it as long as you start and end the movement on solid ground.




Two times per day move a little ways with a chance to avoid attacks of opportunity and to walk over liquid?

300gp, maybe.



> 8. Boots of the Battle Charger - 2xday make charge attack as a standard action instead of full-round action. Can only move your speed, not double your speed. Must make the attack in the round you activate the boots. Also, if you have a magic item that grants enhancement bonus to Dex, you can move across terrain and through squares occupied by allies when making this standard action charge.




I do not understand what some parts of this are doing, I am guessing that it was paraphrased and I am not getting it all. If you have a dexterity boosting item you can move across terrain? Difficult terrain perhaps?

Since all of characters I can think of that I have seen who had a dexterity boosting item would not want to charge most of the time this is an interesting problem.

Ignoring the rest being able to charge as a standard action basically opens up charging in the surprise round and allows a character with psionic meditation to regain focus before charging during a full round, in case that is helpful.

It looks like it would only be useful for one or two battles and only in very specific situations. Highly situational in fact, although the extra clause makes it better if you have a dexterity boosting item.

I would go for 3.5kgp I think. That way I could have 2 pairs so that I could actually rely on having the option available more than one battle a day since obviously I would be planning for it.



> 9. Boots of Swift Passage - 5 x day move action to teleport without error up to 20 feet in any direction (need line of sight and effect, can't be an object or creature in destination, cannot bring other creatures with you).




20' teleportation but need line of sight and effect, 5 times a day, move action needed.

500gp? Mostly just because it is a teleportation effect though. How often do you really need to get 20' from where you are but cannot just walk there? Basically only if you have a wall of opponents in the way I would imagine but then you are behind enemy lines. If you are a dexterity type guy you probably could just tumble, if you are a heavy hitter bull rush might carry you through. Those boots earlier that gave +30' enhancement to movement likely give you a +12 to your jump check anyway so with those instead you might have been able to simply jump over the people.

I like them though, but I cannot think of a situation I've seen in quite some time where they would have come in handy enough to have spent the money on them and carried them around instead of some other footwear.

Edited here..... I have to admit that I forgot about this being able to get a character out of a grapple. So that would actually give it a decent use 5 times a day. I would move this up to 8kgp with that in mind except that I would never pay that much for it. Once I could pay that much I would rather get some other option, such as a +10 to escape artist item, instead or be using spells to prevent the situation. So maybe 5kgp as an actual amount that I would be willing to pay.



> 10. Steadfast Boots - Constant +4 bonus on checks to avoid bull rush, overrun, or trip. Also, if carrying two-handed weapon, constant treatment as if readied weapon against a charge (double damage if you hit), even if weapon cannot normally be set against charges.




Banned. Not a chance. Ridiculous item.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 8, 2007)

Okay, I don't even own the book, so I don't even have any residual memories of pricing formulae, so let's see:

1) 1200 (I figure the Swift Expeditious Retreat is about the same level as normal Expeditious Retreat, so 2000 * 3/5)

2) 3000 (this is slightly more useful than +30 movement speeds in normal situations, so I priced it slightly higher)

3) 5000 (the Dex thing isn't major, but the kip up thing is enormous if you fight things that trip--it shuts tripping down completely.  Ring of Freedom of Movement shuts down even more things completely, so I figured I'd price this relatively to its comparison value to RoFoM)

4) 40000 (not quite as good as Wings of Flying, but better in some senses, manoeuvrability issues for instance)

5) 800 (400 for the +2 to Tumble, 400 for the other thing)

6) 10000 (the 2/day ability is better than Haste for getting extra attacks, but it is only for 2 rounds a day, rather than 10 like Boots of Speed.  However, the +2 damage while skirmishing is highly useful for Scouts.  So to anyone who would possibly buy this, making it cost just a bit less than Boots of Speed looks right)

7) 50000 (I may be underpricing this.  This is a gamebreaker in the hands of anyone who can use a full attack effectively because it can be used as a combination of Lion's Charge without needing to charge and concealment to make that even safer, plus it can be used for any other reason you need an extra Move Action, just like Hustle.  I used the price of a 2/day Hustle x10 for putting a personal-only power in an item, then rounded up 2000 for the concealment)

8) 5000 (This is *much* less useful for charging than the last item.  I don't really see much of a use for it except for sticking a +2 Dex onto it also and then giving them to your whole party to abuse the already abusive Warmaster's Charge with a White Raven initiator)

9) 30000 (This is basically the trump card you use to escape from being stuck in a Forcecage, a grapple, to cross a wall that your enemy conjured up, etc.  I charged for Dimension Door instead of Tw/oE because of the short range, then subtracted about half due to taste)

10) 12500 (this is killer against charges, zombies, etc, and it gives a good bonus vs most other manoeuvres)


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## brehobit (Apr 8, 2007)

Oohhhh, fun....


			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> GROUP ONE "THINGS FOR YOUR FEET"
> 
> 1. Sandals of Sprinting - 3xday swift action to gain +30 enhancement bonus to land speed (max double your speed) until start of your next turn.



Burns a slot and a swift action for a fairly minor ability (except when it isn't). I'll say 1,500GP.  



> 2. Boots of Sidestepping - 3xday swift action extra 5-foot step.  Can use even if already moved, and doesn't prevent movement after use (even a regular 5' step).



Basically the same as above, but VERY handy when it's handy (full attack followed by 10' step back so the dragon or whatever can't full attack you).  4,500GP.



> 3. Boots of Agile Leaping - Constant +Dex to Jump checks instead of Strength.  If you have at least 5 ranks in Balance, constant stand up from prone as swift action, and standing from prone doesn't provoke attack of opportunity.



Very similar again.  Useful when it is useful, and takes foot slot.  Hummm.... 1,500.



> 4. Cloudwalker Anklets - Constant Air Walk (as spell), can benefit from effect even if wildshaped.



35,000.  Always on fly is nice.



> 5. Acrobat Boots - Constant +2 tumble checks.  3 charges/day enhancement bonus to land speed for 1 rd.  Bonus depends on charges you expend: 1 charge = +10, 2 = +15, 3= +20.




Humm... 1,500.



> 6. Skirmisher Boots - 2xday make single extra melee or ranged attack using full BAB, after having moved at least 10 feet from space you started turn (mount movement doesn't count).  Also, if you have the skirmash special ability (scout), constant +2 damage when skirmishing.




Nice for a scout. 7,500?



> 7. Quicksilver Boots - 2xday swift action to move up to your land speed (as if using a move action, but not taking your move action), and gain concealment against Attacks of Opportunity caused by that movement, and can move over liquid without falling into it as long as you start and end the movement on solid ground.



I'm a bit clear on this.  Do all those bonuses only work if use the twice a day?



> 8. Boots of the Battle Charger - 2xday make charge attack as a standard action instead of full-round action.  Can only move your speed, not double your speed.  Must make the attack in the round you activate the boots.  Also, if you have a magic item that grants enhancement bonus to Dex, you can move across terrain and through squares occupied by allies when making this standard action charge.



Seems sorta weak actually.  What do you get, a move action left?  I guess it lets you set up a charge at a funny angle (move then charge) but only nice for a very limited set of characters. I'll go with 1,200GP



> 9. Boots of Swift Passage - 5 x day move action to teleport without error up to 20 feet in any direction (need line of sight and effect, can't be an object or creature in destination, cannot bring other creatures with you).



Does this provoke?  Can use use in a grapple?  If it doesn't provoke and you can use if "for free" in a grapple, I'd say something like 20,000, maybe 30,000.  It would be a must-take for an arcane caster.



> 10. Steadfast Boots - Constant +4 bonus on checks to avoid bull rush, overrun, or trip.  Also, if carrying two-handed weapon, constant treatment as if readied weapon against a charge (double damage if you hit), even if weapon cannot normally be set against charges.



No idea here.  3,000.
(Edit: reading everyone else's post, I'm not sure what this does. Do you get a bonus attack AS IF you'd readied an action and 2x damage on top of that?  Or do you only get the bonus if you've readied an action?  Or only if the charge provokes?)


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## Eloi (Apr 8, 2007)

GROUP ONE "THINGS FOR YOUR FEET"

1. Sandals of Sprinting - 3xday swift action to gain +30 enhancement bonus to land speed (max double your speed) until start of your next turn.

250 gold, worth perhaps as much as 400 to a Scout or some crazed Barbarian.

2. Boots of Sidestepping - 3xday swift action extra 5-foot step. Can use even if already moved, and doesn't prevent movement after use (even a regular 5' step).

Very nice. 3000 gold, worth a thousand gold for each Full Attack I deny my (fumingly-mad) enemy.

3. Boots of Agile Leaping - Constant +Dex to Jump checks instead of Strength. If you have at least 5 ranks in Balance, constant stand up from prone as swift action, and standing from prone doesn't provoke attack of opportunity.

Not common to run into a Tripping fiend, so 2200 gold to turn a Thief into a bounding madman seems about right.

4. Cloudwalker Anklets - Constant Air Walk (as spell), can benefit from effect even if wildshaped.

This makes a Druid horribly fearsome. 42500 gp.

5. Acrobat Boots - Constant +2 tumble checks. 3 charges/day enhancement bonus to land speed for 1 rd. Bonus depends on charges you expend: 1 charge = +10, 2 = +15, 3= +20.

Eh.. 500 gold? The Tumble is nice, but there are better boots competing for this space.

6. Skirmisher Boots - 2xday make single extra melee or ranged attack using full BAB, after having moved at least 10 feet from space you started turn (mount movement doesn't count). Also, if you have the skirmish special ability (scout), constant +2 damage when skirmishing.

To a Scout, these are pretty dandy. Worth twice what the Sidesteppers are, 6000.

7. Quicksilver Boots - 2xday swift action to move up to your land speed (as if using a move action, but not taking your move action), and gain concealment against Attacks of Opportunity caused by that movement, and can move over liquid without falling into it as long as you start and end the movement on solid ground.

Doesn't use a move action, and you "walk on water" as a freebie (provided you're careful) - 45000 gold.

8. Boots of the Battle Charger - 2xday make charge attack as a standard action instead of full-round action. Can only move your speed, not double your speed. Must make the attack in the round you activate the boots. Also, if you have a magic item that grants enhancement bonus to Dex, you can move across terrain and through squares occupied by allies when making this standard action charge.

Not as good as it sounds. Very situational, 3850 gold and it's out the door.

9. Boots of Swift Passage - 5 x day move action to teleport without error up to 20 feet in any direction (need line of sight and effect, can't be an object or creature in destination, cannot bring other creatures with you).

400 per weenie-port per day, so 2000 gp. If you live in a deathtrapped area, it might even be worth it. I'd hold out for the Steadfast Boots myself.

10. Steadfast Boots - Constant +4 bonus on checks to avoid bull rush, overrun, or trip. Also, if carrying two-handed weapon, constant treatment as if readied weapon against a charge (double damage if you hit), even if weapon cannot normally be set against charges.

Wow. Worth every penny of 30000 gp until the last foe learns not to charge. If you routinely get in over your head and provoke charges against you, this is your best friend.


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## ThirdWizard (Apr 8, 2007)

Before reading anyone else's:



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> 1. Sandals of Sprinting - 3xday swift action to gain +30 enhancement bonus to land speed (max double your speed) until start of your next turn.




I'd say that's about equal to a 1st level spell. By the formula itself, it looks like it would come out to 1,080 gp, so we'll go ahead and round it down to 1,000 gp to make it nice and even. That's the cost of a +1 enhancement bonus added to a piece of armor, and that sounds about right. I would buy that item.



> 2. Boots of Sidestepping - 3xday swift action extra 5-foot step.  Can use even if already moved, and doesn't prevent movement after use (even a regular 5' step).




The Spell Compendium has a very nice spell called _slide_ that is a 1st level spell that moves a character within Close range 5' (no AoO). It's a standard action, but it the boots can only be used on yourself. I'd say that makes it about a 2nd level spell equivalent. That brings it to 2,160 gp, dropped to 2,000 for a nice evening. That looks good to me.



> 3. Boots of Agile Leaping - Constant +Dex to Jump checks instead of Strength.  If you have at least 5 ranks in Balance, constant stand up from prone as swift action, and standing from prone doesn't provoke attack of opportunity.




Hmm... interesting. It's all situational. How much better is your Dex than Str? How likely is a PC to have 5 ranks in balance? To price it, though, we're going to have to assume that both of those are true, I think, so I'll price it the same as I would if both effects were constant, and I'll assume a +5 higher Dex than Str modifier.

Bonus squared x 5 x 100 is normal for a competence bonus, but this stacks with everything, since it isn't a bonus. I'll round it up to 3,000 gp for that. I know, though, that I would never pay that much for that. Jump just isn't that important. By the time your Dex outstrips your Str that much, well, jumping won't be much of a problem anyway. I'll halve it to 1,500 gp which still looks high to me, but I'll keep that.

Getting up as a swift action without an AoO... I don't know how to price exactly. It's definitely nice in certain situations. I don't see tripping done on PCs that often, though. I'm just going to make something up and say 3,000 gp for that ability.

So it comes out to 4,500 gp. Looks too high... who is going to use it unless they expect to be tripped? That could just be my game, though, so that's probably what I'd go for "officially." In my own game, it would probably be around 2,000 gp. Still don't know if anyone would buy it, though.



> 4. Cloudwalker Anklets - Constant Air Walk (as spell), can benefit from effect even if wildshaped.




Niiiiice. Fourth level continuous spell effects with 10 min/round durations come out to 56,000 gp. Wings of flying give 60' movement with good maneuverability, and these are obviously better. Add to that the wildshape feature. The Compendium question becomes "Would you buy it?" So, which is better, an item that lets you walk on air or a +5 weapon? I really can't decide. I'll just make them equivalent. I betcha the MiC is going to price it less than me, though. In the end: 50,000 gp.



> 5. Acrobat Boots - Constant +2 tumble checks.  3 charges/day enhancement bonus to land speed for 1 rd.  Bonus depends on charges you expend: 1 charge = +10, 2 = +15, 3= +20.




I don't like this item as much as the 1st item. Tumble isn't that great a skill to enhance since all the DCs are flat, and the movement bonuses aren't as good. 750 gp.



> 6. Skirmisher Boots - 2xday make single extra melee or ranged attack using full BAB, after having moved at least 10 feet from space you started turn (mount movement doesn't count).  Also, if you have the skirmash special ability (scout), constant +2 damage when skirmishing.




Good for more than a scout, because it will get you two attacks on a charge at your highest BAB twice a day. I can't think of a melee character I've seen played would wouldn't want these boots. After they're used up, you can switch to something else. The scout gets icing on the cake equivalent to weapon specialization. That ain't too shabby.

Boots of Speed give you 10 rounds of _haste_, which is the closest item I can think of to the extra attack this gives you, and those cost 12,000 gp. So instead of 10 rounds of haste, you get 2 rounds of 1 attack under certain circumstances. On one hand, you can't use haste on a charge, on the other, _haste_ has other benefits. I'll call it a wash. Divide by 5 and you get 2,400 gp. Round up because of the skirmish bonus to 3,000 gp. 



> 7. Quicksilver Boots - 2xday swift action to move up to your land speed (as if using a move action, but not taking your move action), and gain concealment against Attacks of Opportunity caused by that movement, and can move over liquid without falling into it as long as you start and end the movement on solid ground.




Oohhhhh! Okay... hmm.... Makes me think of _dimension door_, except quickened, shorter range, and personal only, but not quite because you are actually moving through threatened squares, albeit as if _blurred_. I'll say that's equivalent to a 6th level spell, two levels above _dimension door_.

2/day for a 6th level spell completion item is 47,520 gp. That's almost as much as a +5 weapon. The fact that you can use this to get a full attack off, even if its only 2/day, immediately, is huge. I'm going to round this one up to 50,000 gp even.



> 8. Boots of the Battle Charger - 2xday make charge attack as a standard action instead of full-round action.  Can only move your speed, not double your speed.  Must make the attack in the round you activate the boots.  Also, if you have a magic item that grants enhancement bonus to Dex, you can move across terrain and through squares occupied by allies when making this standard action charge.




I'm not seeing the real benefit of the Standard Action charge. I must be missing something. You can charge in and tumble away... but people with tumble generally aren't wanting to charge in the first place. You can move to a charging position and then charge, basically allowing a turning charge, but then still not _that_ great an ability. Nice, definitely. Not great. Same for charging through allies' spaces. Then it can only be used 2/day!

1,000 gp.



> 9. Boots of Swift Passage - 5 x day move action to teleport without error up to 20 feet in any direction (need line of sight and effect, can't be an object or creature in destination, cannot bring other creatures with you).




Remember where I mentioned _slide_ above? There's also _greater slide_ that is 2nd level that does this exact thing except on anyone in Medium range. That calculates to 10,800 gp. That's the cost of a cape of the mountebank. I'll call it fine, and round to 10,000 gp.



> 10. Steadfast Boots - Constant +4 bonus on checks to avoid bull rush, overrun, or trip.  Also, if carrying two-handed weapon, constant treatment as if readied weapon against a charge (double damage if you hit), even if weapon cannot normally be set against charges.




Anti-charge boots. Not bad, not bad. I don't see that many bull rushes, overruns, or trips, but the double damage on a charge can be downright devistating, and gets better and better as you go up in levels. If the DM has a lot of charging enemies, this might be the best item given so far. 80,000 gp. Maybe higher because I wouldn't want to see it in my game.


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## hong (Apr 8, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> 4. Cloudwalker Anklets - Constant Air Walk (as spell), can benefit from effect even if wildshaped.






			
				Eloi said:
			
		

> This makes a Druid horribly fearsome. 42500 gp.






			
				ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> Niiiiice. Fourth level continuous spell effects with 10 min/round durations come out to 56,000 gp. Wings of flying give 60' movement with good maneuverability, and these are obviously better. Add to that the wildshape feature. The Compendium question becomes "Would you buy it?" So, which is better, an item that lets you walk on air or a +5 weapon? I really can't decide. I'll just make them equivalent. I betcha the MiC is going to price it less than me, though. In the end: 50,000 gp.






			
				brehobit said:
			
		

> 35,000. Always on fly is nice.






			
				Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> 4) 40000 (not quite as good as Wings of Flying, but better in some senses, manoeuvrability issues for instance)




Bloody kids these days. I paid bloody 85000 gp for my pair 5 years ago! 

Well, that pair also had boots of striding & springing included, but still!


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 8, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Bloody kids these days. I paid bloody 85000 gp for my pair 5 years ago!
> 
> Well, that pair also had boots of striding & springing included, but still!



 Hey, at least I didn't charge only 300 GP for the Quicksilver Boots--seeing that was a bit eye-opening about the priorities in others' campaigns.


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## hong (Apr 8, 2007)

The steadfast boots is confusing. When exactly do you get the double damage with a 2-handed weapon?

1) The first attack you make on an enemy in the round after they charge you

2) All attacks you make on an enemy in the round after they charge you

3) All attacks you make on an enemy, for the rest of the fight, after they charge you.

The 3rd one can't be right. The first one seems the most reasonable interpretation. Assuming this, I'd put it at 10000 gp plus another 10000 for the +4 vs stuff, for a total of 20000 gp.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 8, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> The steadfast boots is confusing. When exactly do you get the double damage with a 2-handed weapon?
> 
> 1) The first attack you make on an enemy in the round after they charge you
> 
> ...



 I think its (1).  Based on some of the other prices, I think some of the others think that the boots also give you a readied action to attack the charger even if you never readied in the first place.


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## Gweldorf (Apr 8, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I think its (1).  Based on some of the other prices, I think some of the others think that the boots also give you a readied action to attack the charger even if you never readied in the first place.




Does the condition of charging last until your next round?

If not, then surely it has to give an extra readied action to attack the charger.  Otherwise, you won't get any bonus damage because the opponent is no longer charging.

If charging does last until the next round, then (2) would be more reasonable.

Alternatively, the boots could give no benefit to weapons that already can be set against charge, and provide that feature to other two-handed weapons.  I think that reading is a stretch from the text though.

Edit:  I realized that it could be for reach weapons, giving the bonus to the AoO that would normally occur when a charger moves into 5' range.  I think that's what I'll go with.  So that would be (4), only provides double damage during the charge on an AoO or with a ready action.


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## Mistwell (Apr 8, 2007)

I'll clarify a couple of items, since there seems to be a bit of confusion about them.

Boots of the Battle Charger - When activated (a swift action), these boots allow you to make a charge attack as a standard action (rather than a full-round action), though the charge only includes movement up to your speed (rather than double your speed).  You must make the charge attack in the round you activate the boots, or the effect is lost.
If you also wear a magic item that grants an enhancement bonus to your Dexterity score, you can move across difficult terrain and through squares occupied by allies when making a charge after activating the boots.  
You can use this ability two times per day (this ability being activating the boots).

Steadfast Boots - You can a +4 bonus on checks made to avoid being bull rushed, overrun, or tripped.  Furthermore, as long as you carry a two-handed weapon, you are treated as if you had readied that weapon against any creature that charges you (and thus it deals double damage if your attack is successful), even if the weapon can't normally be set against a charge.

Quicksilver Boots - When you activate these boots (a swift action), you can move a distance up to your land speed (as if using a move action to do so).  This extra movement follows all the normal rules for movement, except that you can move across water or other liquid without falling in (as long as you start and finish on solid ground).  You provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for movement, though the rapidity of your travel makes your form blurry, providing concealment against such attacks.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 8, 2007)

Gweldorf said:
			
		

> Does the condition of charging last until your next round?
> 
> If not, then surely it has to give an extra readied action to attack the charger.  Otherwise, you won't get any bonus damage because the opponent is no longer charging.
> 
> ...



 Oh, I admit that your reading is possible given the text, but I'd be tempted to price it like Slaved (that is "Banned" ) if so.


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## Mistwell (Apr 8, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Oh, I admit that your reading is possible given the text, but I'd be tempted to price it like Slaved (that is "Banned" ) if so.




It's an oddly written item.  My interpretation was that, if you ready an action, and someone charges you while you are readied, you have the option of taking your stated readied action or you can instead use the readied action to attack the person charging you, in which case you are considered readied against the charge (if you have a two handed weapon).

I can see the interpretation that it grants you an extra readied action any time you are charged.  In other words, that it would be an immediate extra standard action to attack anyone that charges you, and the attack is considered readied against that charge.


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## Destil (Apr 8, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> It's an oddly written item.  My interpretation was that, if you ready an action, and someone charges you while you are readied, you have the option of taking your stated readied action or you can instead use the readied action to attack the person charging you, in which case you are considered readied against the charge (if you have a two handed weapon).
> 
> I can see the interpretation that it grants you an extra readied action any time you are charged.  In other words, that it would be an immediate extra standard action to attack anyone that charges you, and the attack is considered readied against that charge.



This is how I'm reading it, and I'd have to agree with the banned price with that reading:

*Steadfast Boots ... Furthermore, as long as you carry a two-handed weapon, you are treated as if you had readied that weapon against any creature that charges you...*

Whenever you are charged you gain a standard readied action in response to attack the charge, as if you had readied an action to set a spear against a charge.

*(and thus it deals double damage if your attack is successful), even if the weapon can't normally be set against a charge.*

Again, like using a spear, your readied attack deals double damage.


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## Cheiromancer (Apr 9, 2007)

This talk of banning reminds me of when people first laid eyes on the Mystic Theurge.    Give it a chance: it might not be as bad as it seems.

In building characters I am finding it awfully difficult, even with the new prices, to tear myself away from the big six.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 9, 2007)

Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> This talk of banning reminds me of when people first laid eyes on the Mystic Theurge.    Give it a chance: it might not be as bad as it seems.
> 
> In building characters I am finding it awfully difficult, even with the new prices, to tear myself away from the big six.



 With those boots if they really give you infinite readied actions to set against the charge, all you need is faster movement than your opponent to ensure that they can never attack you in melee without getting hit by you for double damage first (and then you zonk them on your own turn).  Just attack and move away--since you have higher move, they have to charge.


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## Mistwell (Apr 9, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> With those boots if they really give you infinite readied actions to set against the charge, all you need is faster movement than your opponent to ensure that they can never attack you in melee without getting hit by you for double damage first (and then you zonk them on your own turn).  Just attack and move away--since you have higher move, they have to charge.




If you are always fleeing, then you are making a standard attack each round and then drawing an attack of opportunity as you flee (unless you have feats or skills to try and avoid it).  Which also means even your readied action is just making up for a lost attack you could have previously had, and you also just moved away from your party and gotten smacked by a charge, or else face a ranged attack.  That doesn't sound like a winning tactic to me.  Useful sometimes, but nothing something you are doing a whole lot.

Not to mention, there are boots that counter this in this same group (they give an extra move).  You attack as a standard action and flee to draw a charge, I move as a swift action and then move as a standard action and attack you without a charge, away from your group.

Even with the more powerful interpretation, I do not in any way see this as a bannable item.  Expensive, but not bannable.


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## Cheiromancer (Apr 9, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> With those boots if they really give you infinite readied actions to set against the charge, all you need is faster movement than your opponent to ensure that they can never attack you in melee without getting hit by you for double damage first (and then you zonk them on your own turn).  Just attack and move away--since you have higher move, they have to charge.




It's the Perfect Combo!


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## Destil (Apr 9, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Not to mention, there are boots that counter this in this same group (they give an extra move).  You attack as a standard action and flee to draw a charge, I move as a swift action and then move as a standard action and attack you without a charge, away from your group.
> 
> Even with the more powerful interpretation, I do not in any way see this as a bannable item.  Expensive, but not bannable.



My problem is they change the dynamics of combat far too much for my liking. 1/day I wouldn't have a problem with, but it's too easy as written.


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## Mistwell (Apr 10, 2007)

Okay, enough time has passed for the guessing and discussion on this group I think.  Here are the published prices:

GROUP ONE "THINGS FOR YOUR FEET"

1. Sandals of Sprinting - 3xday swift action to gain +30 enhancement bonus to land speed (max double your speed) until start of your next turn. 2,300 gp.

2. Boots of Sidestepping - 3xday swift action extra 5-foot step. Can use even if already moved, and doesn't prevent movement after use (even a regular 5' step).  6,000 gp.

3. Boots of Agile Leaping - Constant +Dex to Jump checks instead of Strength. If you have at least 5 ranks in Balance, constant stand up from prone as swift action, and standing from prone doesn't provoke attack of opportunity. 600 gp.

4. Cloudwalker Anklets - Constant Air Walk (as spell), can benefit from effect even if wildshaped.  50,000 gp

5. Acrobat Boots - Constant +2 tumble checks. 3 charges/day enhancement bonus to land speed for 1 rd. Bonus depends on charges you expend: 1 charge = +10, 2 = +15, 3= +20.  900 gp.

6. Skirmisher Boots - 2xday make single extra melee or ranged attack using full BAB, after having moved at least 10 feet from space you started turn (mount movement doesn't count). Also, if you have the skirmash special ability (scout), constant +2 damage when skirmishing.  3,200 gp.

7. Quicksilver Boots - 2xday swift action to move up to your land speed (as if using a move action, but not taking your move action), and gain concealment against Attacks of Opportunity caused by that movement, and can move over liquid without falling into it as long as you start and end the movement on solid ground.  3,500 gp.  

8. Boots of the Battle Charger - 2xday make charge attack as a standard action instead of full-round action. Can only move your speed, not double your speed. Must make the attack in the round you activate the boots. Also, if you have a magic item that grants enhancement bonus to Dex, you can move across terrain and through squares occupied by allies when making this standard action charge.  2,000 gp

9. Boots of Swift Passage - 5 x day move action to teleport without error up to 20 feet in any direction (need line of sight and effect, can't be an object or creature in destination, cannot bring other creatures with you).  5,000 gp

10. Steadfast Boots - Constant +4 bonus on checks to avoid bull rush, overrun, or trip. Also, if carrying two-handed weapon, constant treatment as if readied weapon against a charge (double damage if you hit), even if weapon cannot normally be set against charges.  1,400 gp.

By the way, on that last item, the caster level is 3rd, the appropriate character level is 5th, and the prerequisite is bull's strength.  These are some of the reasons I think it does not grant an actual extra readied action, just the option to use your weapon as readied against a charge if you actually readied an action as normal to begin with.  It just doesn't seem to involve anything along the power of things that benefit speed, or extra moves or actions, in the prerequisites or the pricing or the level.

Okay, so after some discussion about how outrageous or reasonable these prices are, the next group will be THINGS TO WEAR ON YOUR WAIST.  

I'd love it if someone could calculate who was overall closest in guessing, and who was closest on the most number of items.  I do not have the math patience for such a calculation.  It's not necessary, I just thought it might be fun.


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## Slaved (Apr 10, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> 1. Sandals of Sprinting - 3xday swift action to gain +30 enhancement bonus to land speed (max double your speed) until start of your next turn. 2,300 gp.




Very odd price. I thought they were trying to make less useful items on the cheap.

Expedius retreat boots, constantly active: 4kgp

Constant +30 enhancement bonus to movement without the double limitation.

I know that not all spells make a decent price using the guidelines but that one is probably more or less ok.

I might actually get the expedius boots, depending on the build, but not those sandals.


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## Mistwell (Apr 10, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> Very odd price. I thought they were trying to make less useful items on the cheap.
> 
> Expedius retreat boots, constantly active: 4kgp.  Constant +30 enhancement bonus to movement without the double limitation.




No sane DM would allow such an item at anywhere near that price, however.



> I know that not all spells make a decent price using the guidelines but that one is probably more or less ok.




In bizzaro world maybe.  You think a constant +30 move to speed for 4k is reasonable?!? It's three times the bonus of Boots of Striding and Springing, for a lower price than that item!


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## Slaved (Apr 10, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> You think a constant +30 move to speed for 4k is reasonable?!? It's three times the bonus of Boots of Striding and Springing, for a lower price than that item!




Boots of striding and springing give +10' and +5 to jump, plus they are overpriced. +5 to jump is 2500gp base, +10' is based off of longstrider and so it 2000gp, multiplying the smaller cost by 1.5 gives a total cost of 5500gp so the formula works out but they are certainly not worth that price tag. 

4kgp is kindof reasonable. A bit on the high side though.

The movement bonus is nice but not that great. It just does not do that much. It is also of the most common type for speed boosting.

Occasionally useful while normally not doing much of anything. Fits right in with the situational items that were getting reduced for this book.

2300 for +30 for up to 3 rounds in a single day and each use costing an action? Overpriced by an order of magnitude.


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## hong (Apr 10, 2007)

Always-on 60' movement is awesome for any skirmishing build, including those involving blast spells.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 10, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Always-on 60' movement is awesome for any skirmishing build, including those involving blast spells.



 Who needs  60' movement when you can have those ridiculous Quicksilver Boots for 3500?   That item is so terribly priced that I _must_ be reading it wrong somehow...Are they really trying to make it that easy to get extra actions and full attacks?  Have they not learned from 3.0 Haste   For that price, I'd buy 5, one for each battle with a spare pair left over.  You'll hardly need to use its abilities more than that, though it is nice for more than just dashing through everything to get to your target and then killing them with an opening full attack.

I agree with Mistwell on the Steadfast Boots--with the given prereqs and pricing, it would make no sense to grant infinite readied actions as well.


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## hong (Apr 10, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Who needs  60' movement when you can have those ridiculous Quicksilver Boots for 3500?   That item is so terribly priced that I _must_ be reading it wrong somehow...Are they really trying to make it that easy to get extra actions and full attacks?  Have they not learned from 3.0 Haste   For that price, I'd buy 5, one for each battle with a spare pair left over.  You'll hardly need to use its abilities more than that, though it is nice for more than just dashing through everything to get to your target and then killing them with an opening full attack.
> 
> I agree with Mistwell on the Steadfast Boots--with the given prereqs and pricing, it would make no sense to grant infinite readied actions as well.



 I think the idea is that people aren't going to go the route of circumventing use limits by getting lots of copies of the same item. If you're going to do that, you might as well make everything at-will, and bump up the price 100x. Would be slightly boring, though.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 10, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> I think the idea is that people aren't going to go the route of circumventing use limits by getting lots of copies of the same item. If you're going to do that, you might as well make everything at-will, and bump up the price 100x. Would be slightly boring, though.



 If 20x a day is not acceptable for 35000, I don't think 2x a day is at all acceptable for 3500 though.  It just makes the character more of a loaded gun, a nova waiting to go off when it counts and skew the party's capabilities.  If there's one great thing about the Bo9S classes, wrinkles and all, it's that they are much flatter in that regard, and I personally thought that was a wiser design direction.


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## Mistwell (Apr 10, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> Boots of striding and springing give +10' and +5 to jump, plus they are overpriced. +5 to jump is 2500gp base, +10' is based off of longstrider and so it 2000gp, multiplying the smaller cost by 1.5 gives a total cost of 5500gp so the formula works out but they are certainly not worth that price tag.




You really have not groked the fact that the guidelines are just guidelines, and the pricing of magic items is more often than not in no way based on those guidelines.

Speed bonuses do not follow the guidelines.  We do not have to guess at this, because we know if for sure.  WOTC has made it clear.  

That you think those striding and springing boots, which the MIC admits are ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR ITEMS IN THE ENTIRE GAME, are overpriced, shows that your game isn't typical.



> 4kgp is kind of reasonable. A bit on the high side though.
> 
> The movement bonus is nice but not that great. It just does not do that much. It is also of the most common type for speed boosting.
> 
> ...




Each use is a swift action, and I think those boots are cheap, and I think you are in the overwhelming minority in your opinion about speed bonuses in this game.


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## Mistwell (Apr 10, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Who needs  60' movement when you can have those ridiculous Quicksilver Boots for 3500?   That item is so terribly priced that I _must_ be reading it wrong somehow...Are they really trying to make it that easy to get extra actions and full attacks?  Have they not learned from 3.0 Haste   For that price, I'd buy 5, one for each battle with a spare pair left over.  You'll hardly need to use its abilities more than that, though it is nice for more than just dashing through everything to get to your target and then killing them with an opening full attack.




It's just replicating the Monte Cook Arcana Evolved feat I believe.  Having played with that feat, I do not find it overpowered, particularly if reduced to 2 x day.  An extra move action (used just to actually move) here and there is useful, but not game breaking.


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## hong (Apr 10, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> It's just replicating the Monte Cook Arcana Evolved feat I believe.  Having played with that feat, I do not find it overpowered, particularly if reduced to 2 x day.  An extra move action (used just to actually move) here and there is useful, but not game breaking.



 What Rystil Arden is complaining about is that an extra move action is equivalent to pounce, ie full attack after moving. For some classes (eg barbarians), it often comes down to who gets the first full attack off. There was a 1st level spell in Savage Species, pouncing charge, that gave the target the pounce ability for 10 mins/level and it became routine practice to put it on the tanks. It really is that good.

By comparison, quicksilver motion (move action as a swift action) is a 6th level diamond mind maneuver in ToB, and shadow blink (teleport 50' as a swift action, must have LOS and LOE to destination) is 7th level. OTOH sudden leap (make Jump check as a swift action) is 1st level.


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## Mistwell (Apr 10, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> What Rystil Arden is complaining about is that an extra move action is equivalent to pounce, ie full attack after moving. For some classes (eg barbarians), it often comes down to who gets the first full attack off. There was a 1st level spell in Savage Species, pouncing charge, that gave the target the pounce ability for 10 mins/level and it became routine practice to put it on the tanks. It really is that good.
> 
> By comparison, quicksilver motion (move action as a swift action) is a 6th level diamond mind maneuver in ToB, and shadow blink (teleport 50' as a swift action, must have LOS and LOE to destination) is 7th level. OTOH sudden leap (make Jump check as a swift action) is 1st level.




Ah, I gotcha.

I do think the flaw with many of these items is the lack of the 24 hour attuning clause.  If they had just included that clause by default, and then removed it when they thought it was not appropriate, most items would have worked out well.


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## hong (Apr 10, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> If 20x a day is not acceptable for 35000, I don't think 2x a day is at all acceptable for 3500 though.  It just makes the character more of a loaded gun, a nova waiting to go off when it counts and skew the party's capabilities.  If there's one great thing about the Bo9S classes, wrinkles and all, it's that they are much flatter in that regard, and I personally thought that was a wiser design direction.



 Would it be better then if instead of 2/day it was something like 1/encounter? That way you know the gun has to be used within a limited time. The price would go up, but predictability would be improved.


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## hong (Apr 10, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Ah, I gotcha.
> 
> I do think the flaw with many of these items is the lack of the 24 hour attuning clause.  If they had just included that clause by default, and then removed it when they thought it was not appropriate, most items would have worked out well.



 The attuning idea is a good one. Funny that they mention it for a few items, but neglect to make it a default rule.


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## Slaved (Apr 10, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> You really have not groked the fact that the guidelines are just guidelines, and the pricing of magic items is more often than not in no way based on those guidelines.




So my pricing for this whole thread, which only pays a passing glance to the pricing guidelines, has not shown that I am more than comfortable with dropping the guidelines when they seem out of line?

Odd. I would have thought my posts in this thread would point more towards ignoring them than stictly adhearing to them.

Generally I use them as a starting point though. See what the guidelines say, see if there are any comparable items, look at the prices and ask myself if I saw them on the shelf to buy as a character how much would I be willing to pay.

But the guidelines are still one of a couple good places to start. Looking at this spell and speed bonus in particular it is not incredibly out of line price wise and the closest item to compare it with shows 2kgp for +10' enhancement is acceptable so 4kgp for +30' enhancement is not out of line that way either.



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> Speed bonuses do not follow the guidelines.  We do not have to guess at this, because we know if for sure.  WOTC has made it clear.




Where did they make this clear? Plus, if speed bonuses do not follow the guidelines then why do the boots of striding and springing follow the guidelines *exactly*??




			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> That you think those striding and springing boots, which the MIC admits are ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR ITEMS IN THE ENTIRE GAME, are overpriced, shows that your game isn't typical.




I have never seen anyone buy them in 3.5. +10' enhancement to movement is nice but almost everything that boosts speed is an enhancement bonus. Plus that price tag is really high for it since the bonus to jump is a nice bit of flavor but typically not so hot.

Where did they determine this to be the most popular item? I would like to see their polling results.

For footwear I would say that boots of speed are much more popular. If the speed is the important part then the fact that boots of speed grant a larger bonus, which is again an enhancement bonus, should make them more popular by default especially once you toss on all of the other incredible boosts that they give.



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> Each use is a swift action, and I think those boots are cheap, and I think you are in the overwhelming minority in your opinion about speed bonuses in this game.




Yep, a swift action to activate. So, as I said before, they take an action to activate.

Some builds really like those swift actions. Such as the tome of battle characters for instance or many caster builds.

Then the bonus only lasts for a round of movement.

Way too expensive. They effectively give you a first level spell useable 3 times a day, although if I remember correctly the spell did not have the speed limitation.


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## Slaved (Apr 10, 2007)

While the discussion of the price of the boots is certainly on topic when will the next round be up?


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## Mistwell (Apr 10, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> The attuning idea is a good one. Funny that they mention it for a few items, but neglect to make it a default rule.




They tend to mention it when an item would otherwise be useful if you took it off and handed it to another character to use that day.


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## Mistwell (Apr 10, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> Where did they determine this to be the most popular item? I would like to see their polling results.




It's called out by name in the MIC as one of the most common items selected by PCs.

You can view part of that here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070302a



> Way too expensive. They effectively give you a first level spell useable 3 times a day, although if I remember correctly the spell did not have the speed limitation.




I think, if we took a poll, most people would say that item is too cheap, not too expensive.


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## Slaved (Apr 10, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> It's called out by name in the MIC as one of the most common items selected by PCs.




I do not have the book yet. 



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> You can view part of that here:
> 
> http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070302a




Kindof an offhand comment though. Who knows if it is true or not. Although it even mentions the jumping as being fairly useless just like I did, go me!

If someone wants speed that much there are other options which grant more speed. At a high enough level where 5500gp is easily affordable enough that you are into the 5th or 6th tier of item picking I would imagine that there are much better options for a particular build while at the times that it is a huge investment there are options which are cheaper and about as good overall. Such as a mount.



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> I think, if we took a poll, most people would say that item is too cheap, not too expensive.




Sounds like a good poll. Too bad we cannot ask every d&d player.


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## evilbob (Apr 10, 2007)

I didn't make it in time to guess the first time around, but here're my responses:

1. Sandals of Sprinting - 3xday swift action to gain +30 enhancement bonus to land speed (max double your speed) until start of your next turn. 2,300 gp.
*Seems slightly low.*  I'd have guessed closer to 3k.

2. Boots of Sidestepping - 3xday swift action extra 5-foot step. Can use even if already moved, and doesn't prevent movement after use (even a regular 5' step).  6,000 gp.
*Seems about right.*  Extremely good for cleavers and great-cleavers, even better for bowmen:  5' step from behind full cover, full attack, 5' step back behind full cover.

3. Boots of Agile Leaping - Constant +Dex to Jump checks instead of Strength. If you have at least 5 ranks in Balance, constant stand up from prone as swift action, and standing from prone doesn't provoke attack of opportunity. 600 gp.
*Seems outrageously low.*  Seriously:  every character I've ever played would gladly have paid more than 10x this amount for these boots.  I've seen _multiple feats_ do less than these boots.  No monk or fighter should exist without these boots.  Not just good for trip-monkeys:  _anyone who's ever been dropped in a combat_ - especially against reaching opponents - needs these boots!  PLEASE SELL ME THESE BOOTS!  

4. Cloudwalker Anklets - Constant Air Walk (as spell), can benefit from effect even if wildshaped.  50,000 gp
*Seems a bit high.*  But then again, a constant fly-like ability is going to be expensive.  It'd be much better as a charged item for 1/2 the cost.

5. Acrobat Boots - Constant +2 tumble checks. 3 charges/day enhancement bonus to land speed for 1 rd. Bonus depends on charges you expend: 1 charge = +10, 2 = +15, 3= +20.  900 gp.
*Seems a bit low.*  I'd have said about double that cost, or between 1.5k and 2k.

6. Skirmisher Boots - 2xday make single extra melee or ranged attack using full BAB, after having moved at least 10 feet from space you started turn (mount movement doesn't count). Also, if you have the skirmash special ability (scout), constant +2 damage when skirmishing.  3,200 gp.
*Seems about right.*  No obvious exploits come to mind, especially since it's just an attack and not a standard action.  3200g for the Weap. Specialization feat for scouts might be low, though.

7. Quicksilver Boots - 2xday swift action to move up to your land speed (as if using a move action, but not taking your move action), and gain concealment against Attacks of Opportunity caused by that movement, and can move over liquid without falling into it as long as you start and end the movement on solid ground.  3,500 gp.
*Seems very low.*  As others have mentioned:  pounce = you win.  If these boots specifically couldn't be used with a charge attack, then the price is about right.

8. Boots of the Battle Charger - 2xday make charge attack as a standard action instead of full-round action. Can only move your speed, not double your speed. Must make the attack in the round you activate the boots. Also, if you have a magic item that grants enhancement bonus to Dex, you can move across terrain and through squares occupied by allies when making this standard action charge.  2,000 gp
*Seems like a weird item.*  This might be about right, but the ability granted (and a synergy ability?) are just to strange to quantify.  Why is it useful?

9. Boots of Swift Passage - 5 x day move action to teleport without error up to 20 feet in any direction (need line of sight and effect, can't be an object or creature in destination, cannot bring other creatures with you).  5,000 gp
*Seems a bit low.*  Other dimension door items are much more expensive; however, the range is _extremely_ limited.

10. Steadfast Boots - Constant +4 bonus on checks to avoid bull rush, overrun, or trip. Also, if carrying two-handed weapon, constant treatment as if readied weapon against a charge (double damage if you hit), even if weapon cannot normally be set against charges.  1,400 gp.
*Seems slightly low.*  You get to be a dwarf and get some other ability no one understands?  A bit much for 1.4k.


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## starwed (Apr 10, 2007)

> No monk or fighter should exist without these boots. Not just good for trip-monkeys: anyone who's ever been dropped in a combat - especially against reaching opponents - needs these boots!



Well, anyone who has 5 ranks of balance.  Given that it's not even a class skill for fighters...  (And besides, what if you're Str is higher than your Dex?  Does this item then penalize you?)


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## Mistwell (Apr 10, 2007)

starwed said:
			
		

> Well, anyone who has 5 ranks of balance.  Given that it's not even a class skill for fighters...  (And besides, what if you're Str is higher than your Dex?  Does this item then penalize you?)




My recollection is that it says whichever is higher (str or dex bonus).

I know my Rogue is probably interested in this item.  His Dex is much higher than Str, 5 ranks in balance isn't hard to get for a rogue, and we are fighting in the city often with people hitting us with ranged attacks.  Dropping to prone intentionally (free action that does not provoke an AOO) for the better AC (+$ AC), and then standing back up as a swift action on my turn instead of a move action, attacking back, and dropping again, is a legit and useful tactic for such situations.

Of course, if someone closes to melee range with me, I will be harmed by that tactic (-4 AC).  Which is when I abandon it


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## evilbob (Apr 10, 2007)

Mostly, I'm still thinking of anyone who has, at any time, been dropped next to a monster, and then healed back above zero before the creature was dead (or far enough away not to reach you anymore).  Getting back up is a hard thing to do, because no matter what you do - unless you stick to fighting from the floor - you're gonna get whacked.  And odds are, if you just woke up from being put under 0 HP, you cannot afford to get whacked.  It's an extremely dangerous situation (low HP + prone) that happens often enough to warrant purchasing measures to protect against it.  Getting up as a swift action is nice, but getting up without an AoO is unbelievably good.  It's TOTALLY worth 10 skill points + 600g for _any_ class.

This kind of usefulness goes up exponentially for classes who already can afford to (and might anyway) put ranks in balance - like monks and rogues.  Monks in particular have great access to good tripping abilities, and if they are tripped in return, they get a free "nevermind - I get to continue my full attack action while standing!" once per round.  Same with spiked-chain fighters:  once per round, don't drop your weapon; just fall and stand up as a swift action!  No harm, no foul.

Who cares about the Dex->Jump thing - you could easily leave that out and the item is still worth over 6000g to me.  I'll take five and give four to my friends!  


That said, it seems from the Design and Development article linked to earlier in this thread that the entire point of the new MIC is basically:  to make items cheaper so that everyone will actually buy them.  This makes a lot of sense, actually, and its a concept that I can agree with, especially having read the arguments put forth in the article.  I still think this particular item is far too cheap for how amazing it is, but overall I'd say the direction they are going with magic items - i.e. what if we make it so that someone will actually consider purchasing them - is a good one.


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## Corsair (Apr 10, 2007)

evilbob said:
			
		

> That said, it seems from the Design and Development article linked to earlier in this thread that the entire point of the new MIC is basically:  to make items cheaper so that everyone will actually buy them.  This makes a lot of sense, actually, and its a concept that I can agree with, especially having read the arguments put forth in the article.  I still think this particular item is far too cheap for how amazing it is, but overall I'd say the direction they are going with magic items - i.e. what if we make it so that someone will actually consider purchasing them - is a good one.




I agree heartily with this part.  The DMG, and most splat books, are filled with neat items which no one ever uses unless they happen to find one...  and then they just sell them as soon as they get back to town because they are worth more as cash than as items.


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## Destil (Apr 10, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> 10. Steadfast Boots - Constant +4 bonus on checks to avoid bull rush, overrun, or trip. Also, if carrying two-handed weapon, constant treatment as if readied weapon against a charge (double damage if you hit), even if weapon cannot normally be set against charges.  1,400 gp.
> 
> By the way, on that last item, the caster level is 3rd, the appropriate character level is 5th, and the prerequisite is bull's strength.  These are some of the reasons I think it does not grant an actual extra readied action, just the option to use your weapon as readied against a charge if you actually readied an action as normal to begin with.  It just doesn't seem to involve anything along the power of things that benefit speed, or extra moves or actions, in the prerequisites or the pricing or the level.



Hey, mist, how's this reading sound: You can use any two-handed weapon to ready an action against a charge as if it were a spear, including dealing double damage if you hit?

That's about right as far as power level, and makes a good deal of sense, though the wording is a little twisted to read it that way.

At any rate that's how I'd allow it in my game.


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## Mistwell (Apr 10, 2007)

Destil said:
			
		

> Hey, mist, how's this reading sound: You can use any two-handed weapon to ready an action against a charge as if it were a spear, including dealing double damage if you hit?
> 
> That's about right as far as power level, and makes a good deal of sense, though the wording is a little twisted to read it that way.
> 
> At any rate that's how I'd allow it in my game.




Sure. Seems reasonable.  "As long as you carry a two-handed weapon, you _*can treat it as a weapon that can be*_ readied...against any creature that charges you (and thus it deals double damage if your attack is successful), even if the weapon can't normally be set against a charge."


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 10, 2007)

evilbob said:
			
		

> Mostly, I'm still thinking of anyone who has, at any time, been dropped next to a monster, and then healed back above zero before the creature was dead (or far enough away not to reach you anymore).  Getting back up is a hard thing to do, because no matter what you do - unless you stick to fighting from the floor - you're gonna get whacked.  And odds are, if you just woke up from being put under 0 HP, you cannot afford to get whacked.  It's an extremely dangerous situation (low HP + prone) that happens often enough to warrant purchasing measures to protect against it.  Getting up as a swift action is nice, but getting up without an AoO is unbelievably good.  It's TOTALLY worth 10 skill points + 600g for _any_ class.
> 
> This kind of usefulness goes up exponentially for classes who already can afford to (and might anyway) put ranks in balance - like monks and rogues.  Monks in particular have great access to good tripping abilities, and if they are tripped in return, they get a free "nevermind - I get to continue my full attack action while standing!" once per round.  Same with spiked-chain fighters:  once per round, don't drop your weapon; just fall and stand up as a swift action!  No harm, no foul.
> 
> ...



 Keep in mind also that in campaign where Rogues are common and the Rogues use tactics like Grease to get infinite free Sneak Attacks on everyone who doesn't have 5 ranks in Balance (if you don't have 5 ranks, you lose Dex bonus to AC while balancing, even if the DC is absurdly easy like Grease), people might be grabbing those ranks cross-class anyway to save themselves.


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## hong (Apr 11, 2007)

evilbob said:
			
		

> Getting up as a swift action is nice, but getting up without an AoO is unbelievably good.  It's TOTALLY worth 10 skill points + 600g for _any_ class.




Or it's worth nothing to me, because I house ruled that stupid rule back to 3.0.


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## Mistwell (Apr 11, 2007)

GROUP TWO "THINGS FOR YOUR WAIST"

1) Belt of Battle - Constant +2 competence bonus to initiative.  Also, 3 charges per day, renewed at dawn, expendable as swift action as follows: 1 charge = 1 extra move action, 2 charges = extra standard action, 3 charges = extra full round action.
2) Belt of Growth - 1 x day, standard (command) action to gain enlarge person on self for 10 minutes or until commanded to end by you.  Does not stack with any other effect that increases your size.
3) Desperation Chain - 1 x day activate chain as an immediate action as you are being rendered helpless (such as pinned, paralyzed, dropped to -1 of fewer hit points, etc..).  When activated, you can cast a single arcane spell of 3rd level or lower without spending an additional action to do so.  This expends the prepared spell or spell slot as if you had cast the spell.  The chosen spell must have a casting time no longer than 1 full round. Casting it requires no verbal or somatic components, and does not provoke an attack of opportunity, but it still requires material components or focus and XP costs.  The spell you cast takes effect after the effect that rendered you helpless, so it cannot prevent that effect, though it could neutralize or reverse it.  You must wear the chain for 24 hours before you can access it's abilities, and if removed it becomes inactive until worn again for an additional 24 hours.
4) Healing Belt - Constant +2 competence bonus to heal checks.  Also, 3 charges a day a standard (command) action, spendable to heal damage with a touch, or harm undead with a touch, as follows: 1 charge 2d8 damage, 2 charges 3d8 damage, 3 charges 4d8 damage.
5) Belt of One Mighty Blow - 1 x a day switft action, increases damage you do on next melee attack made before the end of your turn.  Light weapon does +1d8, one-handed does +2d6, and two-handed does +3d6.
6) Cord of Favor - Constant +5 competence bonus to sense motive.  Also, 3 x day standard (command) action to sacrifice a divine spell slot of 1st level or higher to use divine favor using your own caster level or that of the cord (6th level), whichever is higher.
7) Belt of Ultimate Athleticism - Swift action as often as you wish, can take 10 on Balance, Climb, Jump, and Swim checks made in that round, even under stress.  Also, 1 x day swift action to treat next balance, climb, jump or swim check attempt as if you had rolled a 20. 
8) Belt of the Wide Earth - Constant carrying capacity doubled.  Also 2 x day as standard (mental) action you can sacrifice a prepared spell or spell slot of 5th level or higher to use teleport (as the spell) using your own caster level or that of the belt (9th) whichever is higher.
9) Belt of Priestly Might -  Features a deity's holy symbol.  Followers of that deity, or anyone of that deity's alignment, can wear safely.  Others receive one negative level while wearing belt.  While wearing belt, gain +1 enhancement bonus to natural armor, and +2 enhancement bonus to strength.
10) Silkslick Belt - Constant ability to attempt escape artist check to escape from a grapple or pin as a move action instead of a standard action.  Also, 1 x day as swift (mental) action can activate and gain +10 competence bonus on next escape artist check you bgein before the end of your next turn.


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## hong (Apr 11, 2007)

1. Belt of battle: extra actions are always great. 20000 gp.

2. Belt of growth: enlarge self is also good. 5000 gp.

3. Desperation chain: I can't think of many 3rd level spells that would actually be that helpful if you're helpless or pinned. Maybe fireball on the guy pinning you might be a good way to take the both of you out. Depending on interpretation, a shield that blocks the attack that takes you to -1 could also be used, but I don't think it's kosher. 7000 gp.

4. Healing belt: kinda boring, but someone's gotta do it. 5000 gp.

5. Belt of one mighty blow: nice at low levels, eventually becomes insignificant. 5000 gp.

6. Cord of favor: the competence bonus sets a floor on the price. Div favor is okay, but the standard action makes it less attractive. 3000 gp.

7. Belt of ultimate athleticism: cool for stunting, but these types of checks eventually become obsolete as people start flying/teleporting everywhere. And you'll run out of swift actions eventually. 10000 gp.

8. Belt of the wide earth: who cares about the carrying capacity, it's the teleport. 25000 gp.

9. Belt of priestly might: the deity/alignment limitation is not important. +1 nat armor and +2 Str = 6000 gp.

10. Silkslick belt: nifty for escaping grapples, assuming you have Escape Artist ranks to start with. Which, IME, isn't a lot of people. 5000 gp.


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## ThirdWizard (Apr 11, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> 1) Belt of Battle - Constant +2 competence bonus to initiative.  Also, 3 charges per day, renewed at dawn, expendable as swift action as follows: 1 charge = 1 extra move action, 2 charges = extra standard action, 3 charges = extra full round action.




The +2 to initiative is probably worth about 1,000 gp.

The second ability is made of dreams. Dreams aren't quantifiable.



> 2) Belt of Growth - 1 x day, standard (command) action to gain enlarge person on self for 10 minutes or until commanded to end by you.  Does not stack with any other effect that increases your size.




By my calculations, a 1st level spell 1/day is worth 360 gp. I think enlarge person is really powerful, though, so I'll bump it to 500 gp.



> 3) Desperation Chain - 1 x day activate chain as an immediate action as you are being rendered helpless (such as pinned, paralyzed, dropped to -1 of fewer hit points, etc..).  When activated, you can cast a single arcane spell of 3rd level or lower without spending an additional action to do so.  This expends the prepared spell or spell slot as if you had cast the spell.  The chose spell must have a casting time no longer than 1 full round. Casting it requires no verbal or somatic components, and does not provoke an attack of opportunity, but it still requires material components or focus and XP costs.  The spell you cast takes effect after the effect that rendered you helpless, so it cannot prevent that effect, though it could neutralize or reverse it.  You must wear the chain for 24 hours before you can access it's abilities, and if removed it becomes active until worn again for an additional 24 hours.




That's a neat item. A nice revenge _fireball_ for a BBEG or a _dispel magic_ at an opportune time to get rid of a paralysis effect. A bard can _cure_ himself to get back up again, I guess, as well. I'm not sure. Buying this is basically saying "I'm going down soon" and nobody wants to say that. 1000 gp?



> 4) Healing Belt - Constant +2 competence bonus to heal checks.  Also, 3 charges a day a standard (command) action, spendable to heal damage with a touch, or harm undead with a touch, as follows: 1 charge 2d8 damage, 2 charges 3d8 damage, 3 charges 4d8 damage.




Not too shabby. 1,500 gp is about the cost of a 1/day _cure_ spell that is whatever that 4d8 one is. It has added flexibility as it can heal more if you just use one charge at a time, but that's a luxury I can't see happening too often, however it doesn't gain the + caster level of the actual spell. I'll drop it down to 1,200 gp.



> 5) Belt of One Mighty Blow - 1x switft action, increases damage you do on next melee attack made before the end of your turn.  Light weapon does +1d8, one-handed does +2d6, and two-handed does +3d6.




At will? +3d6 untyped damage to your best attack every round? Untyped damage is king of high level games where everybody and his brother has 10 resistance to every energy type (or is just flat out immune). 6,000 gp 40,000 gp. I know it sucks that the lightweights have to pay for the big 2H bonus, but thems the breaks.





> 6) Cord of Favor - Constant +5 competence bonus to sense motive.  Also, 3 x day standard (command) action to sacrifice a divine spell slot of 1st level or higher to use divine favor using your own caster level or that of the cord (6th level), whichever is higher.




Not too bad for low level clerics, and even the bonus to sense motive isn't bad, since its an opposed roll. Good to wear around town. Being able to drop spells for _divine favor_ is pretty neat, too. The sense motive comes out to 2,500 gp, and I'd probably price the drop spell thingy at about 3,000 gp. Seems too steep, though, added together. 4,000 gp. Still looks high, but I'd have to see it in play.




> 7) Belt of Ultimate Athleticism - Swift action as often as you wish, can take 10 on Balance, Climb, Jump, and Swim checks made in that round, even under stress.  Also, 1 x day swift action to treat next balance, climb, jump or swim check attempt as if you had rolled a 20.




I'm actually more impressed by the first ability than the second. Yeah a 20 once a day is flashy, but the ability to always know you'll make the check or not is better. 8,000 gp.



> 8) Belt of the Wide Earth - Constant carrying capacity doubled.  Also 2 x day as standard (mental) action you can sacrifice a prepared spell or spell slot of 5th level or higher to use teleport (as the spell) using your own caster level or that of the belt (9th) whichever is higher.




The first ability is decent. The second is also decent. You won't have to prepare teleport just in case. It's also very nice for sorcerers. Still, overall, there are better items to wear. Like that healing belt up there. I'll give it a 1,000 gp cost.



> 9) Belt of Priestly Might -  Features a deity's holy symbol.  Followers of that deity, or anyone of that deity's alignment, can wear safely.  Others receive one negative level while wearing belt.  While wearing belt, gain +1 enhancement bonus to natural armor, and +2 enhancement bonus to strength.




2,000 gp for the natural armor, and 4,000 gp for the strength bonus. I don't like math, so I'll just add them together for 6,000 gp.



> 10) Silkslick Belt - Constant ability to attempt escape artist check to escape from a grapple or pin as a move action instead of a standard action.  Also, 1 x day as swift (mental) action can activate and gain +10 competence bonus on next escape artist check you bgein before the end of your next turn.




Darn grappling monsters! 5,000 gp.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 11, 2007)

1) 100,000 gold.  This is underpricing the ridiculous ability granted by this belt, but based on the crazy Boots that were similar, the book is probably going to charge like 5000 for this .  Oh Wizards, why do you keep giving back 3.0 Haste when you know it breaks the game.  For the likely MIC price, this item is not only banned in my game, it is double-banned, whatever that means!  For my price, I would allow it.

2) 2k 1/day 10th-level Enlarge Person, reduced a bit for taste

3) 5k, highly useful if it comes up--would be more without the attuning, but attuning to this means you give up that slot on the assumption that you're going down.

4) 4500--a bit better than +5 to heal coupled with CLW 4/day due to the ability to put out lots of healing at once, if not as much overall by 4.

5) 4000--even once a day, this adds a fairly massive (at low levels) +3d6 damage to your 2-handed attack, so more than 10 on average.  It is a bit annoying that the damage is so much higher for a two-hander, since it absolutely must be priced based on that.

6) 4000--2500 for Sense Motive, 1500 for the ability to swap out for Divine Favour thrice a day

7) 15000--This is pretty darn good for someone who can use it--it's like the Swashbuckler's Acrobatic Skill Mastery ability ,which is fairly high level + the 20 once a day

8) 25000--The price would go down by a massive amount if they had been smarter, like the writer of the Cord of Favour and required the sacrifice of an arcane spell to prevent the divines from abusing this to obviate the need for Travel domain.  As is, you usually don't need Teleport too much more than twice a day, and this lets Druids, Clerics, etc (plus Sorcerers who didn't take Teleport) cast the spell too. 

9) 6000 gp--the price of the two benefits.  If they give a discount for the restriction, they are being the stupidest I have seen them in this entire book, and that includes underpricing the Quicksilver Boots by over 10x.  Giving a discount for crafting an item for a restriction is moronic--it actually makes the item better because your enemies can't use it, and it doesn't hurt you at all, so why not just put on twenty useless restrictions so only you can use it?  If they add price for the restriction, that is acceptable.

10) 4000--1/10th of a Ring of Freedom of Movement.


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## Mistwell (Apr 11, 2007)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> At will? +3d6 untyped damage to your best attack every round? Untyped damage is king of high level games where everybody and his brother has 10 resistance to every energy type (or is just flat out immune). 40,000 gp. I know it sucks that the lightweights have to pay for the big 2H bonus, but thems the breaks.




Not at will, 1 x a day.


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## ThirdWizard (Apr 11, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Not at will, 1 x a day.




Phew! I even re-read it three times! I'll change my pricing.


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## Mistwell (Apr 11, 2007)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> Phew! I even re-read it three times! I'll change my pricing.





I figured


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## Wolfwood2 (Apr 11, 2007)

1) Belt of Battle - Extra actions?  Oh yeah.  And it's not like this slot is vital for spellcasters.  This is going to be a must-have for high level spellcasters unless we price it high enough.  50,000 gp, which is a fair chunk of even high level change.

2) Belt of Growth - Nice, but you could just buy a lot of potions of Enlarge Person and be able to use more than one a day.  Keeping in mind we're deliberately pricing a bit low so people will actually buy this stuff, let's call it 1250 gp.

3) Desperation Chain - This is a cut-rate contingency, and the 3rd level imitation helps mitigate potential abuse.  Call it a nice 1500 gp.  (Same price as a Contingency focus.)

4) Healing Belt - 4d8+0 is only and average of 18 points of healing.  Would you rather have this, or a +3 shield?  The shield.  Would you rather have this, or a +2 shield?  Likely the shield.  A +1 shield?  This is more useful.  So, 3500 gp.

5) Belt of One Mighty Blow - Okay, optimal usage scenario.  You're spiritied charging with a lance and multiplying your bonus damage by x3.  Let's call this one a cool 10,000.  As pointed out, you can't multiply these bonus dice.  I'm going to drop this to 3500 gp.

6) Cord of Favor - As was pointed out, Sense Motive is an opposed roll (sometimes), making the skill bonus pretty handy.  Also, you don't have to memorize Divine Favor.  This seems like a nice paladin item.  I'll call this one 3500, same as the Healing belt.

7) Belt of Ultimate Athleticism - Those are some checks that when you need them, you really need them.  And the option to 'Take 20' when you really have to is pretty cool.  Let's call it 4500 gp.

8) Belt of the Wide Earth - What an odd combination of abilties.  10,000 gp for giving clerics access to two teleports a day, better than even a domain can do for them.

9) Belt of Priestly Might -  This seems pretty straight-forward.  Call it a 7000 gp, paying a little extra for doubling two abilities in one slot.

10) Silkslick Belt - People serious about escaping buy teleportation items, not items to boost escape artist checks.  I dunno.  2000 gp?


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## Storm Raven (Apr 11, 2007)

It seems to me that a lot of posters in this thread should simply say "I don't like players to be able to have useful magic items" and be done with it. Some of the prices people have been tagging these items with are ridiculous. Even more ridiculous are the assertions that some of the items should be banned at any price.


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## Storm Raven (Apr 11, 2007)

Wolfwood2 said:
			
		

> 5) Belt of One Mighty Blow - Okay, optimal usage scenario.  You're spiritied charging with a lance and multiplying your bonus damage by x3.  Let's call this one a cool 10,000.?




Bonus dice of damage are not multiplied.


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## Wolfwood2 (Apr 11, 2007)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Bonus dice of damage are not multiplied.




Good point.  In that case, I am going to edit the price down.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 11, 2007)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> It seems to me that a lot of posters in this thread should simply say "I don't like players to be able to have useful magic items" and be done with it. Some of the prices people have been tagging these items with are ridiculous. Even more ridiculous are the assertions that some of the items should be banned at any price.



 I disagree on both counts.  There are certainly items that should be banned at any price.  Continuous Wraithstrike item (or even use-activated Wraithstrike as a Swift Action item) is a good example.  As to the pricing, I think that it is both disingenuous and insulting to claim that others who price items higher than you would "don't like players to have useful magic items".  For people like me who basically ignore the magic item guidelines when I give out treasure (though I look occasionally at that baseline to see what standard items my PCs should be able to afford) because I know I can handle it by playtesting my characters, the main use for these prices is to decide when a player with the appropriate craft feat will be able to craft it and what it would cost them--since the player is going out of their way to craft this item, I have to look at the maximum abusiveness possible.  What's more, with MIC's new rule that slotted affinity abilities can be added onto items without extra cost, it no longer flies to say "Well if she's wearing this new MIC Belt, she can't have a Belt of Strength" since she can just add Strength onto it.  

Do I want players to have their characters get useful magic items?  Absolutely.  Specifically, I want them to be able to get magic items that make the game more fun.  Belt of Tactical Nuke 1/day (the first one on this list) makes the game _less_ fun because it contributes to novaing and makes the party's capabilities more drastically vary between the fight where they use the belt and the fight where they don't.  What's more, when Mistwell comes back to us with the MIC's real price and it turns out to be 8000 gold or something (a guess based on the Boots), that means a decently leveled character can buy more of them.


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## Slaved (Apr 11, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Do I want players to have their characters get useful magic items?  Absolutely.  Specifically, I want them to be able to get magic items that make the game more fun.  Belt of Tactical Nuke 1/day (the first one on this list) makes the game _less_ fun because it contributes to novaing and makes the party's capabilities more drastically vary between the fight where they use the belt and the fight where they don't.  What's more, when Mistwell comes back to us with the MIC's real price and it turns out to be 8000 gold or something (a guess based on the Boots), that means a decently leveled character can buy more of them.




Definately. I do not like items that are only 1/day or something similar. The ability to use an item several times a day makes it more reliable and it can actually be counted on. Plus people are less likely to have their one big trick and then basically be much less effective for the rest of the day because they are missing a large portion of the wealth that they should have.

Attunement really helps fix some items as well and it would be nice if they used that option more often.


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## evilbob (Apr 11, 2007)

Made it this time!  Not looking at others' answers...  Also, I've posted my guess for what it is listed in the book, and for what I would probably charge for it, as per the rules of this game.

1) Belt of Battle - book guess:  1000g 2500g.  My price for +2 init, 1/day 3/day pounce:  3000g 6000g

2) Belt of Growth - book guess:  400g.  My price for 1/day _enlarge person_ belt:  1000g

3) Desperation Chain - book guess:  3000g.  My price for a better-than-auto-quickened 3rd lvl spell when you need one:  9000g (still less than 1/3 of the price of a quicken rod, since uses slotted space and only works on low-level spells, but it does give you an immediate action...)

4) Healing Belt - book guess:  400g.  My price for a couple of decent spells:  1000g

5) Belt of One Mighty Blow - book guess:  400g.  My price for a 1/day +tiny damage:  750g

6) Cord of Favor - book guess:  400g.  My price for +crappy skill and 1/day sub spell:  750g

7) Belt of Ultimate Athleticism - book guess:  4000g.  My price for duplicating rogue special ability for multiple crappy skills:  6500g

8) Belt of the Wide Earth - book guess:  1500g.  My price for ok ability + sub teleport:  3000g

9) Belt of Priestly Might -  book guess:  4000g.  My price for +2 str belt and +1 nat armor ammy (wrong slot) for very few folks only:  5000g

10) Silkslick Belt - book guess:  1500g.  My price for rare-use ability + 1/day boost:  3000g


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## Mistwell (Apr 11, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> Attunement really helps fix some items as well and it would be nice if they used that option more often.




Agreed.  I might even suggest a house rule to my DMs that all items require attunement unless specifically listed as otherwise by the DM.  Carrying around a bunch of duplicates of a piece of clothing that is intended to stay on you all the time is silly.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 11, 2007)

evilbob said:
			
		

> Made it this time!  Not looking at others' answers...  Also, I've posted my guess for what it is listed in the book, and for what I would probably charge for it, as per the rules of this game.
> 
> 1) Belt of Battle - book guess:  1000g.  My price for +2 init, 1/day pounce:  3000g
> 
> ...



 evilbob, you do realise that the Belt is actually a Belt of 3/day "Pounce" (really Hustle, but they both allow a move and then full attack) or 1/day 3.0 Haste + 1/day Hustle or 1/day the 9th-level manoeuvre in ToB that gives you two full round actions.


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## Mistwell (Apr 12, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> evilbob, you do realise that the Belt is actually a Belt of 3/day "Pounce" (really Hustle, but they both allow a move and then full attack) or 1/day 3.0 Haste + 1/day Hustle or 1/day the 9th-level manoeuvre in ToB that gives you two full round actions.




And you do realize that not everyone is as all hyped up about that issue as you?  That nobody picked on you for your outrageous pricing, so you shouldn't pick on others for theirs?


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## ThirdWizard (Apr 12, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> And you do realize that not everyone is as all hyped up about that issue as you?  That nobody picked on you for your outrageous pricing, so you shouldn't pick on others for theirs?




But, you can take your two full attacks, then pass it to the wizard who does two spells in the next encounter, then the cleric who... heals twice? I don't know! But, its stroooooong! *pick pick pick*


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## PallidPatience (Apr 12, 2007)

It only has 3 charges per day. How is everyone getting to use it?


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## Mistwell (Apr 12, 2007)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> But, you can take your two full attacks, then pass it to the wizard who does two spells in the next encounter, then the cleric who... heals twice? I don't know! But, its stroooooong! *pick pick pick*




No you can't.  It has three charges a day, renewable at dawn.  You cannot pass it to anyone!
 Well okay you could pass it to them, if they need to hold their pants up or something with a belt.


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## hong (Apr 12, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> No you can't.  It has three charges a day, renewable at dawn.  You cannot pass it to anyone!
> Well okay you could pass it to them, if they need to hold their pants up or something with a belt.



 See, I get around this problem by not wearing pants.


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## ThirdWizard (Apr 12, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> No you can't.  It has three charges a day, renewable at dawn.  You cannot pass it to anyone!
> Well okay you could pass it to them, if they need to hold their pants up or something with a belt.




My attempts to be humorous are failing recently due to not thinking about what I'm saying.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 12, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> And you do realize that not everyone is as all hyped up about that issue as you?  That nobody picked on you for your outrageous pricing, so you shouldn't pick on others for theirs?



 I didn't even mention the pricing.  I was pointing out that his explanation for the pricing was wrong.  It would be like if I made the Desperation Chain cost 100000 and explained "Meteor Swarm when you drop?  Or a Teleport Without Error to safety?  Inconceivable!" when the item actually doesn't allow spells over level 3.  It's the same as when you corrected ThirdWizard on the other belt.  Maybe he would increase the price by x3 if he knew, I don't know? (it would still be way too low at that point in my opinion, but that's his prerogative.)  I dunno, I think 200,000 is fairly reasonable.  I would rather have that belt than a +5 Vorpal Sword (or other +10 equivalent weapon) by a longshot with any of my characters in any game where I'm a player because the belt is devastating and throws off the character's power by huge amounts.


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## Mistwell (Apr 12, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I didn't even mention the pricing.  I was pointing out that his explanation for the pricing was wrong.  It would be like if I made the Desperation Chain cost 100000 and explained "Meteor Swarm when you drop?  Or a Teleport Without Error to safety?  Inconceivable!" when the item actually doesn't allow spells over level 3.  It's the same as when you corrected ThirdWizard on the other belt.  Maybe he would increase the price by x3 if he knew, I don't know? (it would still be way too low at that point in my opinion, but that's his prerogative.)  I dunno, I think 200,000 is fairly reasonable.  I would rather have that belt than a +5 Vorpal Sword (or other +10 equivalent weapon) by a longshot with any of my characters in any game where I'm a player because the belt is devastating and throws off the character's power by huge amounts.




Between your guess of 200K and his guess of 3k, he is much closer   In my opinion, your guess is far more of a reach and exaggeration of the usefulness of this item, than his guess is an exaggeration of the uselessness of this item.  1 x day 3.0 haste is not a near-epic item in my opinion


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 12, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Between your guess of 200K and his guess of 3k, he is much closer   In my opinion, your guess is far more of a reach and exaggeration of the usefulness of this item, than his guess is an exaggeration of the uselessness of this item.  1 x day 3.0 haste is not a near-epic item in my opinion



 Don't forget that it is 3/day Hustle if you want it to be, or 1/day 3.0 Haste & 1/day Hustle, or 1/day Time Stands Still (is that the one that gives a full-round extra?).  I think that it is comparable to a Ring of Spell Storing, Major (stronger, in fact, if admittedly less versatile), so I picked the same price.


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## evilbob (Apr 12, 2007)

Well, I guess I should probably chime in here...  

Rystil Arden:  You're right; I did not think the item through, in that you could get 3/day "half pounces" if you moved only your normal movement.  I was still thinking about full-on charges, but this is effectively the same for most battles.

That said, I don't think I will move my price up much.  Maybe 6000g instead of 3000, with a "book guess" of about 2500.  The bonus to init is undervalued but actually quite good (as a DM I think players underestimate how good just a couple extra points of init really are), and the extra pouncing is amazing, but it is still limited to a very few uses.  And it's good for casters, too (possible 3 spells per round, finally!), but only once a day for most spells (standard action).  So the question remains:  is this item worth +1 HP/level and +1 Fort - because really, that's what we are going to replace (+2 con belt) if we get it.  I'd say yes, but probably not a whole heck of a lot more.  Probably not +2 HP/level and +2 Fort.  The difference is that the Fort and HP are always-on, vs. a very limited use otherwise (well, and the init).

I'm sorry, but I just can't justify 200k, or really even 20.  No one is going to buy the thing for a one-shot big hit (or even three "really good shots") and give up that much HP.  The only time it'd be that useful is for a high-level wizard who's planning a "scry-and-fry" and doesn't think there will be any retaliation whatsoever; then it's great for a 3rd spell in your opening round (and I'm still not 100% sure it can even be used this way).


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 12, 2007)

evilbob said:
			
		

> Well, I guess I should probably chime in here...
> 
> Rystil Arden:  You're right; I did not think the item through, in that you could get 3/day "half pounces" if you moved only your normal movement.  I was still thinking about full-on charges, but this is effectively the same for most battles.
> 
> ...



 Isn't Con usually an Amulet?  Also, the MIC lets you add slot-appropriate abilities onto the same item for no price increase, so they could have this belt AND the Con if they pay for both.


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## hong (Apr 12, 2007)

evilbob said:
			
		

> That said, I don't think I will move my price up much.  Maybe 6000g instead of 3000, with a "book guess" of about 2500.  The bonus to init is undervalued but actually quite good (as a DM I think players underestimate how good just a couple extra points of init really are), and the extra pouncing is amazing, but it is still limited to a very few uses.  And it's good for casters, too (possible 3 spells per round, finally!), but only once a day for most spells (standard action).




No 3 spells/round. The belt takes a swift action to activate, so no quickened spells until next round.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 12, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> No 3 spells/round. The belt takes a swift action to activate, so no quickened spells until next round.



 Yup.  Actually considering that, I might lower the price to 100k, compared to the Greater Metamagic Rod rather than the Ring of Spell Storing Major, though the belt is far more useful for noncasters than the Rod.


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## Mistwell (Apr 13, 2007)

No further guessing?  I can post the prices and next group if y'all are done.  Any requests for the next group?


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## hong (Apr 13, 2007)

Neck: ways to hang yourself!


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## Goolpsy (Apr 13, 2007)

A minor comment first:  How about posting less items... i was kind of overwhelmed.


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## glass (Apr 13, 2007)

I started this before work, and had to wait till lunchtime to finish and post it. So, if the answers have been posted in the meantime I haven't seen them. _EDIT: Oh, they weren't._



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> 1) Belt of Battle - Constant +2 competence bonus to initiative.  Also, 3 charges per day, renewed at dawn, expendable as swift action as follows: 1 charge = 1 extra move action, 2 charges = extra standard action, 3 charges = extra full round action.



Not sure. On the one hand, extra actions are very good. OTOH, it is only 3/day at most, and using up a swift action is becoming more of a real cost all the time. 

I'll say 50000gp.

I'd like to go lower, but honestly I'd consider buying one at that price for just about any character who could afford it, but it wouldn't be automatic, which is as it should be.



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> 2) Belt of Growth - 1 x day, standard (command) action to gain enlarge person on self for 10 minutes or until commanded to end by you.  Does not stack with any other effect that increases your size.



Low level only. 1000 gp.



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> 3) Desperation Chain - 1 x day activate chain as an immediate action as you are being rendered helpless (such as pinned, paralyzed, dropped to -1 of fewer hit points, etc..).  When activated, you can cast a single arcane spell of 3rd level or lower without spending an additional action to do so.  This expends the prepared spell or spell slot as if you had cast the spell.  The chosen spell must have a casting time no longer than 1 full round. Casting it requires no verbal or somatic components, and does not provoke an attack of opportunity, but it still requires material components or focus and XP costs.  The spell you cast takes effect after the effect that rendered you helpless, so it cannot prevent that effect, though it could neutralize or reverse it.  You must wear the chain for 24 hours before you can access it's abilities, and if removed it becomes inactive until worn again for an additional 24 hours.



Maybe 2500 gp? Divine would be much better (and more expensive).



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> 4) Healing Belt - Constant +2 competence bonus to heal checks.  Also, 3 charges a day a standard (command) action, spendable to heal damage with a touch, or harm undead with a touch, as follows: 1 charge 2d8 damage, 2 charges 3d8 damage, 3 charges 4d8 damage.



Handy, but not earth-shattering. 2500 gp.



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> 5) Belt of One Mighty Blow - 1 x a day switft action, increases damage you do on next melee attack made before the end of your turn.  Light weapon does +1d8, one-handed does +2d6, and two-handed does +3d6.



Low level only. 1000 gp.



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> 6) Cord of Favor - Constant +5 competence bonus to sense motive.  Also, 3 x day standard (command) action to sacrifice a divine spell slot of 1st level or higher to use divine favor using your own caster level or that of the cord (6th level), whichever is higher.



Upto +3 hit an damage. Divine caster only, but do they need any more perks? 10000 gp.



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> 7) Belt of Ultimate Athleticism - Swift action as often as you wish, can take 10 on Balance, Climb, Jump, and Swim checks made in that round, even under stress.  Also, 1 x day swift action to treat next balance, climb, jump or swim check attempt as if you had rolled a 20.



Depends on how often those check come into play. Be very handy in Savage Tide, I'd imagine. 2500 gp.



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> 8) Belt of the Wide Earth - Constant carrying capacity doubled.  Also 2 x day as standard (mental) action you can sacrifice a prepared spell or spell slot of 5th level or
> higher to use teleport (as the spell) using your own caster level or that of the belt (9th) whichever is higher.



Should be 18k for the teleport, IIRC. Lets round it up to 20000 gp for the other abilities.



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> 9) Belt of Priestly Might -  Features a deity's holy symbol.  Followers of that deity, or anyone of that deity's alignment, can wear safely.  Others receive one negative level while wearing belt.  While wearing belt, gain +1 enhancement bonus to natural armor, and +2 enhancement bonus to strength.



Works out to 7000 gp if I am remembering the formulea right. Seems about right.



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> 10) Silkslick Belt - Constant ability to attempt escape artist check to escape from a grapple or pin as a move action instead of a standard action.  Also, 1 x day as swift (mental) action can activate and gain +10 competence bonus on next escape artist check you bgein before the end of your next turn.



Very nice, but not as good as freedom of movement. Lets say half the price, 20000 gp.


glass.


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## Wolfwood2 (Apr 16, 2007)

Hey Mistwell, how about giving out the answers for the belt prices?


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## moritheil (Apr 16, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> GROUP ONE "THINGS FOR YOUR FEET"
> 
> 1. Sandals of Sprinting - 3xday swift action to gain +30 enhancement bonus to land speed (max double your speed) until start of your next turn.




Equivalent to swift exp. retreat.  ~1000 gp.



> 2. Boots of Sidestepping - 3xday swift action extra 5-foot step.  Can use even if already moved, and doesn't prevent movement after use (even a regular 5' step).




Similar to Mountebank class feature.  Abusable due to bypassing key tactical restrictions.  500,000 gp.



> 3. Boots of Agile Leaping - Constant +Dex to Jump checks instead of Strength.  If you have at least 5 ranks in Balance, constant stand up from prone as swift action, and standing from prone doesn't provoke attack of opportunity.




Equivalent to two feats, or a feat and a skill trick.  25,000 gp.



> 4. Cloudwalker Anklets - Constant Air Walk (as spell), can benefit from effect even if wildshaped.




Equivalent to wild clasp (4k) + wings of solar (around 100-125k).  Around 125,000 gp.



> 5. Acrobat Boots - Constant +2 tumble checks.  3 charges/day enhancement bonus to land speed for 1 rd.  Bonus depends on charges you expend: 1 charge = +10, 2 = +15, 3= +20.




Similar to No. 1.  Less speed, but +2 to a skill.  Maybe 1200 gp.



> 6. Skirmisher Boots - 2xday make single extra melee or ranged attack using full BAB, after having moved at least 10 feet from space you started turn (mount movement doesn't count).  Also, if you have the skirmash special ability (scout), constant +2 damage when skirmishing.




Comparable to haste boots.  Maybe a little more useful.  15,000 gp.



> 7. Quicksilver Boots - 2xday swift action to move up to your land speed (as if using a move action, but not taking your move action), and gain concealment against Attacks of Opportunity caused by that movement, and can move over liquid without falling into it as long as you start and end the movement on solid ground.




Vastly more powerful than haste boots.  Arguably more poweful than teleport boots.  150,000 gp.



> 8. Boots of the Battle Charger - 2xday make charge attack as a standard action instead of full-round action.  Can only move your speed, not double your speed.  Must make the attack in the round you activate the boots.  Also, if you have a magic item that grants enhancement bonus to Dex, you can move across terrain and through squares occupied by allies when making this standard action charge.




Wow, this is strange.  What's the point of granting an additional move action that can't be combined with this attack?  The synergy with a +dex item is inexplicable.  I can't price this until I figure out what loophole it's intended to create.  At a guess, 250,000 gp, on the assumption that it creates some exploit.



> 9. Boots of Swift Passage - 5 x day move action to teleport without error up to 20 feet in any direction (need line of sight and effect, can't be an object or creature in destination, cannot bring other creatures with you).




Okay, this is like the Mountebank class ability (see my comments on No. 2.)  But the move action means that its brokenness is greatly reduced.  I can't remember if the real teleport boots require a move action or a standard action.  75,000 gp if they require standard; 40,000 gp if they require move.



> 10. Steadfast Boots - Constant +4 bonus on checks to avoid bull rush, overrun, or trip.  Also, if carrying two-handed weapon, constant treatment as if readied weapon against a charge (double damage if you hit), even if weapon cannot normally be set against charges.




So, like a belt of dwarvenkind, but with super charge nerfing abilities.  960,000 gp for altering the tactical rules.


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## Mistwell (Apr 16, 2007)

Sorry I have not gotten back to this thread yet.  We had some power outtages, and I was out of power at home for 2 days straight.  Prices, and next set forthcoming.

Next set will be things for your neck.  I appreciate the comment about the overwhelming number.  I will try to keep that in mind, however there are SO many neck items that keeping it to just 10 will be a challenge in itself.


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## moritheil (Apr 16, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> GROUP TWO "THINGS FOR YOUR WAIST"
> 1) Belt of Battle - Constant +2 competence bonus to initiative.  Also, 3 charges per day, renewed at dawn, expendable as swift action as follows: 1 charge = 1 extra move action, 2 charges = extra standard action, 3 charges = extra full round action.




Gee, let's take out 3.0 haste and then put it back in!  Given that haste boots are 12k, and this is half a feat and cost-free celerity on top of that . . . 300,000 gp.



> 2) Belt of Growth - 1 x day, standard (command) action to gain enlarge person on self for 10 minutes or until commanded to end by you.  Does not stack with any other effect that increases your size.




1st level spell.  About 1000 gp.



> 3) Desperation Chain - 1 x day activate chain as an immediate action as you are being rendered helpless (such as pinned, paralyzed, dropped to -1 of fewer hit points, etc..).  When activated, you can cast a single arcane spell of 3rd level or lower without spending an additional action to do so.  This expends the prepared spell or spell slot as if you had cast the spell.  The chosen spell must have a casting time no longer than 1 full round. Casting it requires no verbal or somatic components, and does not provoke an attack of opportunity, but it still requires material components or focus and XP costs.  The spell you cast takes effect after the effect that rendered you helpless, so it cannot prevent that effect, though it could neutralize or reverse it.  You must wear the chain for 24 hours before you can access it's abilities, and if removed it becomes inactive until worn again for an additional 24 hours.




So this is like a contingency for low level spells.  I'm having a hard time figuring out what 3rd level spell is going to save your bacon, though at least it allows you to choose at activation, not beforehand.  50,000 gp.




> 4) Healing Belt - Constant +2 competence bonus to heal checks.  Also, 3 charges a day a standard (command) action, spendable to heal damage with a touch, or harm undead with a touch, as follows: 1 charge 2d8 damage, 2 charges 3d8 damage, 3 charges 4d8 damage.




Oh look, it's a My First Cleric!  It's comparable to an eternal wand of CSW.  Off the top of my head, 3 x 5 x 2000 = 30,000 gp.  I'm sure it's cheaper than that, though.  After all, they want to sell these books.



> 5) Belt of One Mighty Blow - 1 x a day switft action, increases damage you do on next melee attack made before the end of your turn.  Light weapon does +1d8, one-handed does +2d6, and two-handed does +3d6.




A total waste of a belt slot except at very low levels.  For that reason, no more than 2k - I bet they'll cost it at under 1000 gp.



> 6) Cord of Favor - Constant +5 competence bonus to sense motive.  Also, 3 x day standard (command) action to sacrifice a divine spell slot of 1st level or higher to use divine favor using your own caster level or that of the cord (6th level), whichever is higher.




Well, that's pretty wild.  I have no idea what sense motive, which priests use when dealing with shopkeepers, witnesses, and converts, has to do with divine favor, which IIRC improves your attack bonus.  It could just be to reduce the odds of being feinted, but they should restrict it to combat if so.  3,000 gp.



> 7) Belt of Ultimate Athleticism - Swift action as often as you wish, can take 10 on Balance, Climb, Jump, and Swim checks made in that round, even under stress.  Also, 1 x day swift action to treat next balance, climb, jump or swim check attempt as if you had rolled a 20.




I'm not a big fan of instant 20s.  Also, normally one has to play a +LA race in order to get the ability to take 10 on such checks.  50,000 gp.  (I bet they priced it at less than half that, though.)



> 8) Belt of the Wide Earth - Constant carrying capacity doubled.  Also 2 x day as standard (mental) action you can sacrifice a prepared spell or spell slot of 5th level or higher to use teleport (as the spell) using your own caster level or that of the belt (9th) whichever is higher.




Very strange; this adds teleport to all casters.  It's not as good as boots of teleport, though.  40,000 gp.



> 9) Belt of Priestly Might -  Features a deity's holy symbol.  Followers of that deity, or anyone of that deity's alignment, can wear safely.  Others receive one negative level while wearing belt.  While wearing belt, gain +1 enhancement bonus to natural armor, and +2 enhancement bonus to strength.




Redundant for priests.  I can only figure that this is useful at very low levels.  Accordingly, 3500 gp.  Though if it IS really cheap, the best use of it will turn out to be the creation of wights.  Hm, I'd better make a note of that for my next low-level campaign.



> 10) Silkslick Belt - Constant ability to attempt escape artist check to escape from a grapple or pin as a move action instead of a standard action.  Also, 1 x day as swift (mental) action can activate and gain +10 competence bonus on next escape artist check you bgein before the end of your next turn.




It's a feeble version of the "get out of jail" cards that people like to use.  Given that FoM rings are only 40k, this can't be more than 8,000 gp.


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## Wolfwood2 (Apr 16, 2007)

moritheil said:
			
		

> Gee, let's take out 3.0 haste and then put it back in!  Given that haste boots are 12k, and this is half a feat and cost-free celerity on top of that . . . 300,000 gp.




(regarding Belt of Battle)

That's nearly twice the cost of a Mirror of Mental Prowess.  Do you really think it's worth two near-artifact items?

I agree it's nice, but you only get an extra action once per day.  Since extra actions are most questionable in terms of spells, I agree with an earlier poster who compared this to a Greater Metamagic Quicken rod, and one of those only costs 170,000 for three extra spells per day, rather than just one.  I stand by my earlier assessment of around 50,000.




> 1st level spell.  About 1000 gp.




(regarding Belt of Growth)

Agreed that's the right general range.




> So this is like a contingency for low level spells.  I'm having a hard time figuring out what 3rd level spell is going to save your bacon, though at least it allows you to choose at activation, not beforehand.  50,000 gp.




(regarding Desperation Chain)

For only third level spells, and limited to arcane spells at that?  50,000 seems steep.  That's more than the cost of a Lesser Metamagic Quicken rod.  You could get an Amulet of Natural Armor +5 for that kind of money.

Remember too the idea is to underprice these items a little so that people will actually buy and use something besides the boring old standbys.




> Oh look, it's a My First Cleric!  It's comparable to an eternal wand of CSW.  Off the top of my head, 3 x 5 x 2000 = 30,000 gp.  I'm sure it's cheaper than that, though.  After all, they want to sell these books.




(regarding healing Belt)

30,000 for an average of 27 points of healing per day?  (Assuming you use the three charges separately.)  Geeze, for that amount of money you could hire a 2nd level cleric to follow you around at 50 gp a day for an entire campaign and get more utility.  You could buy 40 wands of cure light wounds.

Who would ever pay 30,000 for that minor amount of healing?  This is a nice low level item and should be priced as such.




> A total waste of a belt slot except at very low levels.  For that reason, no more than 2k - I bet they'll cost it at under 1000 gp.




(regarding Belt of One Mighty Blow)

Sometimes you want one big hit, so I think you're underpricing a little but not by much.



> Well, that's pretty wild.  I have no idea what sense motive, which priests use when dealing with shopkeepers, witnesses, and converts, has to do with divine favor, which IIRC improves your attack bonus.  It could just be to reduce the odds of being feinted, but they should restrict it to combat if so.  3,000 gp.




(regarding Cord of Favor)

This would actually be pretty handy for druids, who like to engage in melee but can't otherwise cast divine favor.  Still, your price doesn't seem terribly off.




> I'm not a big fan of instant 20s.  Also, normally one has to play a +LA race in order to get the ability to take 10 on such checks.  50,000 gp.  (I bet they priced it at less than half that, though.)




(regarding Belt of Ultimate Athleticism)

Do you really think that a player would pay 50,000 for the privilege?  50,000 is some serious change.  It's going to be a big chunk of character wealth for a long time.  You can get a +7 armor equivalent for 50,000.

I think you're right that they priced it less, because the Compendium is looking at it from the perspective of, "What is the price at which players will pay to buy this thing reasonably often?"  The goal isn't to price it so high that only one character in a hundred would pay that much for it.



> Very strange; this adds teleport to all casters.  It's not as good as boots of teleport, though.  40,000 gp.




(regarding Belt of the Wide Earth)

Still a little high, I think, though you're right about the utility.  It should probably be priced so that a 12th level character or so might reasonably buy it.



> Redundant for priests.  I can only figure that this is useful at very low levels.  Accordingly, 3500 gp.  Though if it IS really cheap, the best use of it will turn out to be the creation of wights.  Hm, I'd better make a note of that for my next low-level campaign.




(regarding Belt of Priestly Might)

It's a combo of Gauntlets of Ogre Power and an Amulet of Natural Armor +1.  Logically, the price should be equal to those two items added together.



> It's a feeble version of the "get out of jail" cards that people like to use.  Given that FoM rings are only 40k, this can't be more than 8,000 gp.




(regarding Silkslick Belt)

Pretty much agreed.


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## brehobit (Apr 16, 2007)

> 1) Belt of Battle - Constant +2 competence bonus to initiative.  Also, 3 charges per day, renewed at dawn, expendable as swift action as follows: 1 charge = 1 extra moveaction, 2 charges = extra standard action, 3 charges = extra full round action.



65,000.  Just seems about right. Becomes much more powerful as you level up.  20th level characters would really want one (or five)



> 2) Belt of Growth - 1 x day, standard (command) action to gain enlarge person on self for 10 minutes or until commanded to end by you.  Does not stack with any other effect that increases your size.



4,000.  10th level caster 1/day of a first level spell.


> 3) Desperation Chain - 1 x day activate chain as an immediate action as you are being rendered helpless (such as pinned, paralyzed, dropped to -1 of fewer hit points, etc..).  When activated, you can cast a single arcane spell of 3rd level or lower without spending an additional action to do so.  This expends the prepared spell or spell slot as if you had cast the spell.  The chosen spell must have a casting time no longer than 1 full round. Casting it requires no verbal or somatic components, and does not provoke an attack of opportunity, but it still requires material components or focus and XP costs.  The spell you cast takes effect after the effect that rendered you helpless, so it cannot prevent that effect, though it could neutralize or reverse it.  You must wear the chain for 24 hours before you can access it's abilities, and if removed it becomes inactive until worn again for an additional 24 hours.



Dude, that's weird.  I like it mind you.  I guess I'd go with a limited form of #2 (with some advantages, like it's an immediate action).  So 20,000.


> 4) Healing Belt - Constant +2 competence bonus to heal checks.  Also, 3 charges a day a standard (command) action, spendable to heal damage with a touch, or harm undead with a touch, as follows: 1 charge 2d8 damage, 2 charges 3d8 damage, 3 charges 4d8 damage.



7x4x500, minus a bit for not doing 4d8+7.  Plus a bit for the charge option thingy.  I guess 12,000



> 5) Belt of One Mighty Blow - 1 x a day switft action, increases damage you do on next melee attack made before the end of your turn.  Light weapon does +1d8, one-handed does +2d6, and two-handed does +3d6.



1,250.  No good reason.



> 6) Cord of Favor - Constant +5 competence bonus to sense motive.  Also, 3 x day standard (command) action to sacrifice a divine spell slot of 1st level or higher to use divine favor using your own caster level or that of the cord (6th level), whichever is higher.



Really handy for druids.  Nice for everyone else.  Great at low levels (6th level caster).  I'll say 2500 for the sense motive, 2,500 for the swap ability and 2,500 for the caster level.  So 7,500.


> 7) Belt of Ultimate Athleticism - Swift action as often as you wish, can take 10 on Balance, Climb, Jump, and Swim checks made in that round, even under stress.  Also, 1 x day swift action to treat next balance, climb, jump or swim check attempt as if you had rolled a 20.



Nice, but I'll say 4,500.  Frankly flying solves most most of these problems.... 



> 8) Belt of the Wide Earth - Constant carrying capacity doubled.  Also 2 x day as standard (mental) action you can sacrifice a prepared spell or spell slot of 5th level or higher to use teleport (as the spell) using your own caster level or that of the belt (9th) whichever is higher.



No idea.  20,000.



> 9) Belt of Priestly Might -  Features a deity's holy symbol.  Followers of that deity, or anyone of that deity's alignment, can wear safely.  Others receive one negative level while wearing belt.  While wearing belt, gain +1 enhancement bonus to natural armor, and +2 enhancement bonus to strength.



 6,000


> 10) Silkslick Belt - Constant ability to attempt escape artist check to escape from a grapple or pin as a move action instead of a standard action.  Also, 1 x day as swift (mental) action can activate and gain +10 competence bonus on next escape artist check you bgein before the end of your next turn.




Humm... 15,000.  But we use grapples a fair bit.  So perhaps 10,000 for most games...


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## Mistwell (Apr 17, 2007)

Okay, the official pricing on Group 2, THINGS FOR YOUR WAIST:

1) Belt of Battle - Constant +2 competence bonus to initiative. Also, 3 charges per day, renewed at dawn, expendable as swift action as follows: 1 charge = 1 extra move action, 2 charges = extra standard action, 3 charges = extra full round action. 12,000 gp.
2) Belt of Growth - 1 x day, standard (command) action to gain enlarge person on self for 10 minutes or until commanded to end by you. Does not stack with any other effect that increases your size. 3,000 gp.
3) Desperation Chain - 1 x day activate chain as an immediate action as you are being rendered helpless (such as pinned, paralyzed, dropped to -1 of fewer hit points, etc..). When activated, you can cast a single arcane spell of 3rd level or lower without spending an additional action to do so. This expends the prepared spell or spell slot as if you had cast the spell. The chosen spell must have a casting time no longer than 1 full round. Casting it requires no verbal or somatic components, and does not provoke an attack of opportunity, but it still requires material components or focus and XP costs. The spell you cast takes effect after the effect that rendered you helpless, so it cannot prevent that effect, though it could neutralize or reverse it. You must wear the chain for 24 hours before you can access it's abilities, and if removed it becomes inactive until worn again for an additional 24 hours. 15,000gp.
4) Healing Belt - Constant +2 competence bonus to heal checks. Also, 3 charges a day a standard (command) action, spendable to heal damage with a touch, or harm undead with a touch, as follows: 1 charge 2d8 damage, 2 charges 3d8 damage, 3 charges 4d8 damage. 750 gp.
5) Belt of One Mighty Blow - 1 x a day switft action, increases damage you do on next melee attack made before the end of your turn. Light weapon does +1d8, one-handed does +2d6, and two-handed does +3d6. 1,500 gp.
6) Cord of Favor - Constant +5 competence bonus to sense motive. Also, 3 x day standard (command) action to sacrifice a divine spell slot of 1st level or higher to use divine favor using your own caster level or that of the cord (6th level), whichever is higher. 3,000 gp.
7) Belt of Ultimate Athleticism - Swift action as often as you wish, can take 10 on Balance, Climb, Jump, and Swim checks made in that round, even under stress. Also, 1 x day swift action to treat next balance, climb, jump or swim check attempt as if you had rolled a 20. 3,600 gp.
8) Belt of the Wide Earth - Constant carrying capacity doubled. Also 2 x day as standard (mental) action you can sacrifice a prepared spell or spell slot of 5th level or higher to use teleport (as the spell) using your own caster level or that of the belt (9th) whichever is higher. 8,000 gp.
9) Belt of Priestly Might - Features a deity's holy symbol. Followers of that deity, or anyone of that deity's alignment, can wear safely. Others receive one negative level while wearing belt. While wearing belt, gain +1 enhancement bonus to natural armor, and +2 enhancement bonus to strength. 6,000 gp.
10) Silkslick Belt - Constant ability to attempt escape artist check to escape from a grapple or pin as a move action instead of a standard action. Also, 1 x day as swift (mental) action can activate and gain +10 competence bonus on next escape artist check you bgein before the end of your next turn. 2,000 gp.

Some brief discussion on how folks feel about these prices, and then on to GROUP THREE: THINGS FOR YOUR NECK.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 17, 2007)

> 4) Healing Belt - Constant +2 competence bonus to heal checks. Also, 3 charges a day a standard (command) action, spendable to heal damage with a touch, or harm undead with a touch, as follows: 1 charge 2d8 damage, 2 charges 3d8 damage, 3 charges 4d8 damage. 750 gp.




This is ridiculous compared to the eternal wand of CLW (and I'm of the opinion, based on seeing groups buy and use them, that eternal wands are correctly priced, if not underpriced for their utility).



> 1) Belt of Battle - Constant +2 competence bonus to initiative. Also, 3 charges per day, renewed at dawn, expendable as swift action as follows: 1 charge = 1 extra move action, 2 charges = extra standard action, 3 charges = extra full round action. 12,000 gp.




Balderdash!  Give me 10!   The fact that they gave this price with such an obvious comparison to the Rod of Greater Quicken (which has heated debates in this forum as to whether it can really even be used in the way the Belt lets you do it) indicates that they thought the Rod of Greater Quicken is underpowered for its price.  Are they *MAD*?  I can buy this belt 14 times for the price of the Rod of Greater Quicken (and 3 of the belt is universally better than the Rod unless you need to use it more than once consecutively because it gives two full-round actions rather than an instant Quicken (or not an instant Quicken if some on this forum are to be believed) ), and whatever they say about "The Big 6" and people not buying "cool" items, I know for a fact that Wizard PCs salivate over Rod of Greater Quicken as if it were the Holy Grail.


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## Wolfwood2 (Apr 17, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Okay, the official pricing on Group 2, THINGS FOR YOUR WAIST:
> 
> 1) Belt of Battle - Constant +2 competence bonus to initiative. Also, 3 charges per day, renewed at dawn, expendable as swift action as follows: 1 charge = 1 extra move action, 2 charges = extra standard action, 3 charges = extra full round action. 12,000 gp.




Hoo-boy.  I thought some of the guesses were too high, but this is just too low.  It's less than the Desperation Chain!  A real "What were they thinking?"



> 2) Belt of Growth - 1 x day, standard (command) action to gain enlarge person on self for 10 minutes or until commanded to end by you. Does not stack with any other effect that increases your size. 3,000 gp.




Meh.  I could see that cost if Enlarge Person were normally caster only, but 3000 seems a little steep for something the party wizard can already do for you with a first level slot.



> 3) Desperation Chain - 1 x day activate chain as an immediate action as you are being rendered helpless (such as pinned, paralyzed, dropped to -1 of fewer hit points, etc..). When activated, you can cast a single arcane spell of 3rd level or lower without spending an additional action to do so. This expends the prepared spell or spell slot as if you had cast the spell. The chosen spell must have a casting time no longer than 1 full round. Casting it requires no verbal or somatic components, and does not provoke an attack of opportunity, but it still requires material components or focus and XP costs. The spell you cast takes effect after the effect that rendered you helpless, so it cannot prevent that effect, though it could neutralize or reverse it. You must wear the chain for 24 hours before you can access it's abilities, and if removed it becomes inactive until worn again for an additional 24 hours. 15,000gp.




Bah, too high.  Especially for something taking up a valuable amulet slot.



> 4) Healing Belt - Constant +2 competence bonus to heal checks. Also, 3 charges a day a standard (command) action, spendable to heal damage with a touch, or harm undead with a touch, as follows: 1 charge 2d8 damage, 2 charges 3d8 damage, 3 charges 4d8 damage. 750 gp.




Too low, but at least in the right general area.



> 5) Belt of One Mighty Blow - 1 x a day switft action, increases damage you do on next melee attack made before the end of your turn. Light weapon does +1d8, one-handed does +2d6, and two-handed does +3d6. 1,500 gp.




About right.



> 6) Cord of Favor - Constant +5 competence bonus to sense motive. Also, 3 x day standard (command) action to sacrifice a divine spell slot of 1st level or higher to use divine favor using your own caster level or that of the cord (6th level), whichever is higher. 3,000 gp.
> 
> 
> 7) Belt of Ultimate Athleticism - Swift action as often as you wish, can take 10 on Balance, Climb, Jump, and Swim checks made in that round, even under stress. Also, 1 x day swift action to treat next balance, climb, jump or swim check attempt as if you had rolled a 20. 3,600 gp.




Both of these seem about right.



> 8) Belt of the Wide Earth - Constant carrying capacity doubled. Also 2 x day as standard (mental) action you can sacrifice a prepared spell or spell slot of 5th level or higher to use teleport (as the spell) using your own caster level or that of the belt (9th) whichever is higher. 8,000 gp.




I guess you gots to let your cleric/druid get his teleport on, but I wouldn't have gone less than 10,000.



> 9) Belt of Priestly Might - Features a deity's holy symbol. Followers of that deity, or anyone of that deity's alignment, can wear safely. Others receive one negative level while wearing belt. While wearing belt, gain +1 enhancement bonus to natural armor, and +2 enhancement bonus to strength. 6,000 gp.




On the nose.



> 10) Silkslick Belt - Constant ability to attempt escape artist check to escape from a grapple or pin as a move action instead of a standard action. Also, 1 x day as swift (mental) action can activate and gain +10 competence bonus on next escape artist check you bgein before the end of your next turn. 2,000 gp.




Hah, I knew it couldn't be worth that much!  Not for a lame skill like Escape Artist.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 17, 2007)

> Meh. I could see that cost if Enlarge Person were normally caster only, but 3000 seems a little steep for something the party wizard can already do for you with a first level slot.




It normally takes a full round, like a summoning, but the item does not



> Bah, too high. Especially for something taking up a valuable amulet slot.




Despite the chain name, it is a waist item.


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## brehobit (Apr 17, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Okay, the official pricing on Group 2, THINGS FOR YOUR WAIST:
> 
> 1) Belt of Battle - Constant +2 competence bonus to initiative. Also, 3 charges per day, renewed at dawn, expendable as swift action as follows: 1 charge = 1 extra move action, 2 charges = extra standard action, 3 charges = extra full round action. 12,000 gp.



Silly broken.



> 2) Belt of Growth - 1 x day, standard (command) action to gain enlarge person on self for 10 minutes or until commanded to end by you. Does not stack with any other effect that increases your size. 3,000 gp.
> 3) Desperation Chain - 1 x day activate chain as an immediate action as you are being rendered helpless (such as pinned, paralyzed, dropped to -1 of fewer hit points, etc..). When activated, you can cast a single arcane spell of 3rd level or lower without spending an additional action to do so. This expends the prepared spell or spell slot as if you had cast the spell. The chosen spell must have a casting time no longer than 1 full round. Casting it requires no verbal or somatic components, and does not provoke an attack of opportunity, but it still requires material components or focus and XP costs. The spell you cast takes effect after the effect that rendered you helpless, so it cannot prevent that effect, though it could neutralize or reverse it. You must wear the chain for 24 hours before you can access it's abilities, and if removed it becomes inactive until worn again for an additional 24 hours. 15,000gp.



Sounds fine.



> 4) Healing Belt - Constant +2 competence bonus to heal checks. Also, 3 charges a day a standard (command) action, spendable to heal damage with a touch, or harm undead with a touch, as follows: 1 charge 2d8 damage, 2 charges 3d8 damage, 3 charges 4d8 damage. 750 gp.



Silly cheap.  As someone else noted, this is the same as an eternal wand of CLW.  I'll take a bunch.


> 5) Belt of One Mighty Blow - 1 x a day switft action, increases damage you do on next melee attack made before the end of your turn. Light weapon does +1d8, one-handed does +2d6, and two-handed does +3d6. 1,500 gp.
> 6) Cord of Favor - Constant +5 competence bonus to sense motive. Also, 3 x day standard (command) action to sacrifice a divine spell slot of 1st level or higher to use divine favor using your own caster level or that of the cord (6th level), whichever is higher. 3,000 gp.



 I'd say underpriced on the cord, but I don't mind.  The belt is just fine.




> 7) Belt of Ultimate Athleticism - Swift action as often as you wish, can take 10 on Balance, Climb, Jump, and Swim checks made in that round, even under stress. Also, 1 x day swift action to treat next balance, climb, jump or swim check attempt as if you had rolled a 20. 3,600 gp.



I think this is fine.  It works better than more skilled you are so doesn't override the skills.  Sounds good.


> 8) Belt of the Wide Earth - Constant carrying capacity doubled. Also 2 x day as standard (mental) action you can sacrifice a prepared spell or spell slot of 5th level or higher to use teleport (as the spell) using your own caster level or that of the belt (9th) whichever is higher. 8,000 gp.



Nice, but okay.



> 9) Belt of Priestly Might - Features a deity's holy symbol. Followers of that deity, or anyone of that deity's alignment, can wear safely. Others receive one negative level while wearing belt. While wearing belt, gain +1 enhancement bonus to natural armor, and +2 enhancement bonus to strength. 6,000 gp.
> 
> 10) Silkslick Belt - Constant ability to attempt escape artist check to escape from a grapple or pin as a move action instead of a standard action. Also, 1 x day as swift (mental) action can activate and gain +10 competence bonus on next escape artist check you bgein before the end of your next turn. 2,000 gp.



9 is fine.  10 is probably underpriced, but it makes escape artist better, which is good.  I guess I'm fine with both.


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## Wolfwood2 (Apr 17, 2007)

I flipped through the Magic Item Compendium casually the other day, and saw that there was a whole category of items that are part of a set of items built along a theme and meant to work together.

It occurs to me that some of these seemingly underpriced items might make more sense if they were created as part of a set.  That is to say, you can't create or commission them individually, but if you create/commission one you have to make all the others at the same time.

Is the Belt of Battle from such a set?


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## evilbob (Apr 17, 2007)

1) Belt of Battle - 12,000 gp.  My guess:  6000g.  (Opps!  Underbid by half!)  Difference:  -6000g.
2) Belt of Growth - 3,000 gp.  My guess:  1000g.  (Opps!  A bit underbid...)  Difference:  -2000g.
3) Desperation Chain - 15,000gp.  My guess:  9000g.  (Opps!  Underbid!)  Difference:  -6000g.
4) Healing Belt - 750 gp.  My guess:  1000g.  (Ha HA!  Damn close!)  Difference:  250g.
5) Belt of One Mighty Blow - 1,500 gp.  My guess:  750g.  (Pretty close...)  Difference:  -750g.
6) Cord of Favor - 3,000 gp.  My guess:  7500g.  (Opps!  More than doubled!)  Difference:  3500g.
7) Belt of Ultimate Athleticism - 3,600 gp.  My guess:  6500g.  (Eh, a bit over...)  Difference:  2900g.
8) Belt of the Wide Earth - 8,000 gp.  My guess:  3000g.  (Underbid again.)  Difference:  -5000g.
9) Belt of Priestly Might - 6,000 gp.  My guess:  5000g.  (Woot!  Damn close.)  Difference:  -1000g.
10) Silkslick Belt - 2,000 gp.  My guess:  3000g.  (Damn close again!)  Difference:  1000g.

Hey, I think I'm doing pretty good!  I wasn't off by more than 6000g, and those were drastic underbids.  I guess these prices weren't as bad as I had thought.  And I got as close as 250g!  (Of course, that was still 133% of the actual cost...)


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## Mistwell (Apr 17, 2007)

Wolfwood2 said:
			
		

> I flipped through the Magic Item Compendium casually the other day, and saw that there was a whole category of items that are part of a set of items built along a theme and meant to work together.
> 
> It occurs to me that some of these seemingly underpriced items might make more sense if they were created as part of a set.  That is to say, you can't create or commission them individually, but if you create/commission one you have to make all the others at the same time.
> 
> Is the Belt of Battle from such a set?




That is not quite how sets work, actually.  You don't have to make the entire set all at once, and you can buy individual items from a set separate from the whole (and it's expected that you do so, since the powers of a set increase as you obtain/create more items from the same set at a later date).

The only restriction is, to make an item from a set, you must have access to one other item from that set.

They also say in the MIC that they specifically did not alter pricing in any way because it is part of a set.  WOTC felt that the items were fine as individual items, and should not have prices increased (or decreased) because it has extra powers as you obtain more items.  WOTC also placed set items in the general list of items by location, and random item list, to again emphasize that these items should be treated as normal items.

I'd say whether or not an item is part of a set isn't particularly relevant for the item's price.  It's relevant to a character, so they know if they can get more items from that set they will get more abilities.  But for pricing?  I'd say not important.


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## Quidam (Apr 18, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> It's just replicating the Monte Cook Arcana Evolved feat I believe.  Having played with that feat, I do not find it overpowered, particularly if reduced to 2 x day.  An extra move action (used just to actually move) here and there is useful, but not game breaking.




During this intermission between sets, I just have to add a comment that I was the DM of the game (currently on hiatus) that Mistwell is referring to here.  I disagree with his asessment of that feat in the game and when that campaign is revived it will be removed.

Once one member of the party took it and the others saw the effect, everyone else started lining up to get that extra move action.  It also started showing up on a lot of my NPCs- it's just that good.  Pounce FTW.  Or flyby attack.  Or spring attack (barring the AoO protection).

The same logic applies to that Chain of Free Actions.  

Time is the only true coin of the realm.


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## moritheil (Apr 18, 2007)

brehobit said:
			
		

> Silly cheap.  As someone else noted, this is the same as an eternal wand of CLW.  I'll take a bunch.
> I'd say underpriced on the cord, but I don't mind.  The belt is just fine.




Yeah, that was me.  Wow.  Under 1k?  Way too low.  I agree that the price per rules (wherein I forgot to divide, so it really ought to be 12k or so) might be a bit steep in terms of its utility, but this is a steal.


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## Mistwell (Apr 20, 2007)

Sorry for the delay.  I have the 10 items for neck picked out, just need to post them.  Life has been silly busy lately.  I will post tonight.


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## two (Apr 21, 2007)

*actions*

I think in general people underestimate the power of additional actions.  Either free movement, extra movement, extra attacks, extra spells, extra teleportations... etc.

Free movement setting up a full attack or a charge...

Etc.

Extra actions are golden.  As seen by the nerf of haste 3.0.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 21, 2007)

two said:
			
		

> I think in general people underestimate the power of additional actions.  Either free movement, extra movement, extra attacks, extra spells, extra teleportations... etc.
> 
> Free movement setting up a full attack or a charge...
> 
> ...



 I think in general many of us were fairly reasonable in not underestimating.  The people who are whacked out of their minds are those who actually put those prices in the book.  12k for the "Belt of I Win" is insane--I admit that not every single character in the game will buy this item first before anything else, but after a certain level, it becomes a no-brainer for everyone (and before people say it takes the Belt slot, remember the new pricing formula in MIC--you can add back your +2 Strength or what-have-you at no extra cost (except the opportunity cost of not buying 10 of these things and switching them because only one of them has +2 Strength on it too) )


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## Mistwell (Apr 21, 2007)

GROUP THREE "THINGS FOR YOUR NECK"

1. Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker: Swift command action 1/day move up to half your speed as part of the same swift action used to activate the charm; this movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity; round down to the nearest 5-foot increment when relevant.

2. Scarab of Invulnerability: Swift command action 1/day gives 1 round of total immunity to all forms of damage (including ability damage), from all things including weapons, spells, psionics, poison, environment, or anything else causing damage.  Must wear fro 24 hours before it attunes to you and can function.

3. Brooch of Stability: 1/day when your HPs drop to -1 or lower, automatically stabilize (assuming damage was not enough to kill you).

4. Amber Amulet of Vermin, Giant Bee: Standard command action 1/day summons a giant bee, as summon natures ally spell, for 1 minute.

5. Amulet of Retributive Healing: Swift command action 3/day, next effect you use before end of your turn that heals another creature's damage also heals you the same amount (as long as you could be healed by that same effect).  If effect heals multiple creatures, you still only get healed one time.

6. Amulet of Second Chances: Swift command action 1/day to undo all events of your current turn and begin the turn again.  Includes moving self and creatures back to positions of start of turn, removing damage and conditions, and in all other ways resetting the turn.  Affected creatures remain aware of the now non-existent turn, but free to make new choices in new turn.

7. Torc of Displacement: Immediate mental action grants concealment for 1 round of a percentage based on charges you use.  3 charges/day, renews at dawn, spendable as follows: 1 charge 20% miss chance, 2 30%, 3 40%.

8. Scarab of Stabilization: Constant if drop below 0 hp but still alive, auto stabilize.  One time use secondary power, if drop below -10 hp become -1 hp instead and stabilize (scarab crumbles to dust if secondary ability used).

9. Heartseeking Amulet: Swift command action 3/day to make next single melee attack made within that turn a melee touch attack.

10. Amulet of Emergency Healing: Immediate command action 3/day to provide instant healing of 1d4+5 points of damage to self or creature in 30 feet of you.  Can even be used to prevent death of creature reduced to below -9 hit points, ans long as healing returns target to -9 or higher.


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## Mistwell (Apr 21, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I think in general many of us were fairly reasonable in not underestimating.  The people who are whacked out of their minds are those who actually put those prices in the book.  12k for the "Belt of I Win" is insane--I admit that not every single character in the game will buy this item first before anything else, but after a certain level, it becomes a no-brainer for everyone (and before people say it takes the Belt slot, remember the new pricing formula in MIC--you can add back your +2 Strength or what-have-you at no extra cost (except the opportunity cost of not buying 10 of these things and switching them because only one of them has +2 Strength on it too) )




I think your perception of how valuable this item is, is not the same as everyone else's.  Yes, many agree with you.  But many do not.  I don't think you can objectively say everyone thinks like you do on that issue.  I for one do not.  I do not think 1/day items that grant extra turns are nearly as powerful as you do.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 21, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> I think your perception of how valuable this item is, is not the same as everyone else's.  Yes, many agree with you.  But many do not.  I don't think you can objectively say everyone thinks like you do on that issue.  I for one do not.  I do not think 1/day items that grant extra turns are nearly as powerful as you do.



 I can certainly respect pricing it lower than what I listed.  However, I cannot respect pricing it anywhere near the MIC price.  Compare to Rod of Greater Quicken, which many people say is broken.  Do you think Rod of Greater Quicken is overpriced?


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## Mistwell (Apr 21, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I can certainly respect pricing it lower than what I listed.  However, I cannot respect pricing it anywhere near the MIC price.  Compare to Rod of Greater Quicken, which many people say is broken.  Do you think Rod of Greater Quicken is overpriced?




Yes, I do.  But regardless, I think we should move on to the new set of items.  There are some in there that are plenty powerful as well.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 21, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Yes, I do.  But regardless, I think we should move on to the new set of items.  There are some in there that are plenty powerful as well.



 I agree, but most of them seem more powerful-useful than ruin-your-game powerful.  The 1st one is a lot more reasonable than the very very similar but better quicksilver boots in the first set.  The only thing in this set that's insane are the reboot amulet and the Wraithstrike amulet.  Rebooting a turn is the same as taking two turns for certain gambling builds and can be annoying, tedious, and less than fun for other players (this from experience of Psions who have a 9th-level Nomad-only power that does this and costs lots of XP)


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## evilbob (Apr 21, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> GROUP THREE "THINGS FOR YOUR NECK"



At this point, I've been sufficiently convinced and picked up the book, so I'll abstain from now on - but I'll just say if this whole excersize was a trick to get folks to purchase something, it totally worked!


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## gnfnrf (Apr 21, 2007)

A caveat.  I own MIC.  I don't specifically remember how much any of this stuff costs, and I'm not looking it up, but I think I have a feel for pricing.  We'll find out, I suppose.

GROUP THREE "THINGS FOR YOUR NECK"

1. Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker

Single daily usage of OK battlefield movement.  Now divide by 4 cuz it's MIC.  1250 gp.

2. Scarab of Invulnerability

Mind-boggling.  Must call price from the wind. 35,000 gp.

3. Brooch of Stability

750 gp.

4. Amber Amulet of Vermin, Giant Bee: Standard command action 1/day summons a giant bee, as summon natures ally spell, for 1 minute.

This is the giant bee that dies after a single attack, right?  Can I ask to be paid for the item?
I wouldn't buy at any price, but the MIC probably charges 600 gp.

5. Amulet of Retributive Healing

Oops.  Abstain, as I have a character who owns this one.

6. Amulet of Second Chances

I refuse to use this in a game.  Not because it is necessarily too powerful, but because it would take the rest of the session to resolve, potentially.  But it must be expensive, so we'll say 45,000 gp.

7. Torc of Displacement

2500 gp.

8. Scarab of Stabilization

4000 gp. (I'm bored of justifying myself)

9. Heartseeking Amulet

5000 gp.

10. Amulet of Emergency Healing

1500 gp.


--
gnfnrf


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## two (Apr 22, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I think in general many of us were fairly reasonable in not underestimating.  The people who are whacked out of their minds are those who actually put those prices in the book.  12k for the "Belt of I Win" is insane--I admit that not every single character in the game will buy this item first before anything else, but after a certain level, it becomes a no-brainer for everyone (and before people say it takes the Belt slot, remember the new pricing formula in MIC--you can add back your +2 Strength or what-have-you at no extra cost (except the opportunity cost of not buying 10 of these things and switching them because only one of them has +2 Strength on it too) )




I was referring to the original prices in the book, not the mostly sensible commentary from EnWorld.


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## starwed (Apr 22, 2007)

> > 4) Healing Belt - Constant +2 competence bonus to heal checks. Also, 3 charges a day a standard (command) action, spendable to heal damage with a touch, or harm undead with a touch, as follows: 1 charge 2d8 damage, 2 charges 3d8 damage, 3 charges 4d8 damage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Two things:

The number of dice rolled is irrelevant.  4d8 is average healing of 18hp, and you could get that with Cure Mod at 9th level, or (out of combat) vigor at 5th level.  (Wands of vigor are literally twice as good as wands of CLW for out of combat healing.))  So you're overestimating the cost even by the DMG formula.  I'd say the pricing is _meant_ to replace the wand of CLW for low level parties.  (And at higher levels, the healing is pretty much gone in one encounter.)  Also, unlike the wand of CLW, you're less likely to get the entire party to chip in on one of these, since it's more of an individual item.
 One thing that I'm not sure was intended; it works _really_ well in melee against undead, because unlike the _Cure_ spells there's no save against the damage, and you can activate it w/o drawing an attack.  I think that makes it a little too good for the price.



> 10. Amulet of Emergency Healing: Immediate command action 3/day to provide instant healing of 1d4+5 points of damage to self or creature in 30 feet of you. Can even be used to prevent death of creature reduced to below -9 hit points, ans long as healing returns target to -9 or higher.



Since this exactly replicates a 2nd level spell at CL 5, the standard pricing formula indicates something like 10k.  But I'm not sure the item is as useful by the time you get to that level, so lets call it 6k.


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## hong (Apr 22, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> GROUP THREE "THINGS FOR YOUR NECK"
> 
> 1. Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker: Swift command action 1/day move up to half your speed as part of the same swift action used to activate the charm; this movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity; round down to the nearest 5-foot increment when relevant.




10,000 gp



> 2. Scarab of Invulnerability: Swift command action 1/day gives 1 round of total immunity to all forms of damage (including ability damage), from all things including weapons, spells, psionics, poison, environment, or anything else causing damage.  Must wear fro 24 hours before it attunes to you and can function.




40,000 gp (80,000 gp if it was an immediate action)



> 3. Brooch of Stability: 1/day when your HPs drop to -1 or lower, automatically stabilize (assuming damage was not enough to kill you).




1000 gp (60,000 gp if it also worked if damage would have killed you)



> 4. Amber Amulet of Vermin, Giant Bee: Standard command action 1/day summons a giant bee, as summon natures ally spell, for 1 minute.




Can't remember how tough a giant bee is. I guess 4000 gp, since it can't be that tough.



> 5. Amulet of Retributive Healing: Swift command action 3/day, next effect you use before end of your turn that heals another creature's damage also heals you the same amount (as long as you could be healed by that same effect).  If effect heals multiple creatures, you still only get healed one time.




30,000 gp. Great for tank clerics who have heal.



> 6. Amulet of Second Chances: Swift command action 1/day to undo all events of your current turn and begin the turn again.  Includes moving self and creatures back to positions of start of turn, removing damage and conditions, and in all other ways resetting the turn.  Affected creatures remain aware of the now non-existent turn, but free to make new choices in new turn.




200,000 gp, possibly banned. Effectively a save-and-reload item.



> 7. Torc of Displacement: Immediate mental action grants concealment for 1 round of a percentage based on charges you use.  3 charges/day, renews at dawn, spendable as follows: 1 charge 20% miss chance, 2 30%, 3 40%.




5000 gp. Nifty but not overpowered.



> 8. Scarab of Stabilization: Constant if drop below 0 hp but still alive, auto stabilize.  One time use secondary power, if drop below -10 hp become -1 hp instead and stabilize (scarab crumbles to dust if secondary ability used).




10,000 gp, just for the secondary effect. Or maybe 1,000 gp if I'm running a tough game and don't want lots of deaths.



> 9. Heartseeking Amulet: Swift command action 3/day to make next single melee attack made within that turn a melee touch attack.




100,000 gp. Stupidly broken with ToB maneuvers and anything that stacks damage multipliers on a single attack (eg charging Power Attack smite).



> 10. Amulet of Emergency Healing: Immediate command action 3/day to provide instant healing of 1d4+5 points of damage to self or creature in 30 feet of you.  Can even be used to prevent death of creature reduced to below -9 hit points, ans long as healing returns target to -9 or higher.




5000 gp. Nice early on, but eventually you'll be fighting stuff that can take you to -30 in one hit.


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## Wolfwood2 (Apr 22, 2007)

Before estimating prices, let me first note that the amulet necklace slot is a pretty valuable one.  You could have an amulet of natural armor or an amulet of health in there, both of which increase survivability.  Divine casters will want to use the necklace slot for a periapt of wisdom.  Most of the items below are useful only in the middle of the battle, so it's not like you can put them on out of combat to use only when you need them.

Sure you could have the effects you want enchanted for other slots, but as far as 'found' items go, it's still a safe bet the necklace slot will have a lot of competition.


1. Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker: Let's say 1500 gp.  It's useful, but only functioning 1/day is a heavy limitation.

2. Scarab of Invulnerability: Pretty nice.  Still, only once a day and you have to wear it all the time to get it to work.  Call it 12,000 gp.

3. Brooch of Stability: Cute very low level item.  400 gp.

4. Amber Amulet of Vermin, Giant Bee: Call it about the same as a gray bag of tricks.  900 gp.


5. Amulet of Retributive Healing: Hmm, difficult to price.  Call it... 2000 gp?  Sure you've got the, "You could use this with Heal" at higher levels, but you've also got, "I want a periapt of wisdom" at higher levels.

6. Amulet of Second Chances: I'm not sure what "your current turn" means.  Does it shift everything back by one round, or (as I suspect) does it only undo the results of your standard + move action that you took that round?  So like if you fireball a devil and it laughs because it's immune to fire, you use your swift action to go back and choose to cast another spell instead?

Assuming you can only undo your own move + standard action, it's not so bad.  You're not actually getting any extra actions and it doesn't allow you to reroll a saving throw or anything like that.  In fact, the reroll ability of a luckblade is probably a good point of comparison.  Call it 16,000 gp.

7. Torc of Displacement: Displacement for only 1 round?  Call it 2,000 gp.

8. Scarab of Stabilization: One time lifesaver?  Call it 6000 gp.

9. Heartseeking Amulet: Ah, power attack fodder!  Let's say 8000 gp, it's it's probably not as consistently useful as a belt of strength +4 but mildly better than gauntlets of strength +2.

10. Amulet of Emergency Healing: Immediate healing, but not a lot of healing.  Call it 4000 gp.


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## Mistwell (Apr 23, 2007)

Wolfwood2 said:
			
		

> Before estimating prices, let me first note that the amulet necklace slot is a pretty valuable one.  You could have an amulet of natural armor or an amulet of health in there, both of which increase survivability.  Divine casters will want to use the necklace slot for a periapt of wisdom.  Most of the items below are useful only in the middle of the battle, so it's not like you can put them on out of combat to use only when you need them.




Fortunately the rules for adding those common types of bonuses to an existing item have changed, making it less expensive to do so.

Because this is an issue likely to come up for a lot of items, I'll give a brief run-down on those rules.



> Adding Common Item Effects to Existing Items
> 
> One of the most frustrating roadblocks to using interesting, unusual magic items is that they take up body slots that you need for an ability-boosting item (such as gauntlets of ogre power), a ring or protection, or another must-have item. To address this issue, Magic Item Compendium presents official rules for adding common item effects to existing magic items.
> 
> ...


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 23, 2007)

Does the Amulet of Second Chances have wording to cater for the fact that the swift action to use the Amulet is an 'event of your current turn', and therefore after the charge is spent, the spending of the charge is undone and you're left with an Amulet that still has one charge left for the day?

-Hyp.


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## Mistwell (Apr 23, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Does the Amulet of Second Chances have wording to cater for the fact that the swift action to use the Amulet is an 'event of your current turn', and therefore after the charge is spent, the spending of the charge is undone and you're left with an Amulet that still has one charge left for the day?
> 
> -Hyp.




No.  But, I think that's pretty darn obvious.  It functions once a day, not an infinite number of times a day.


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## Cheiromancer (Apr 23, 2007)

I'm too lazy to check, but are any of the participants in this contest really, really good at guessing the MIC prices?  Or any group of them? 

If so, it would be awesome if they would start to MICify some of the items in the DMG. Drop the prices of items that are too expensive, raise the prices on the ones that are too cheap, and so on.


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## Mistwell (Apr 23, 2007)

Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> I'm too lazy to check, but are any of the participants in this contest really, really good at guessing the MIC prices?  Or any group of them?
> 
> If so, it would be awesome if they would start to MICify some of the items in the DMG. Drop the prices of items that are too expensive, raise the prices on the ones that are too cheap, and so on.




Once this game peters out (and it seems to be starting to do that with this group), I plan on tallying up some scores and seeing who were particularly good at guessing.


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 23, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> No.  But, I think that's pretty darn obvious.  It functions once a day, not an infinite number of times a day.




I have a Wand of Magic Missile with 20 charges, and I use it to shoot the evil wizard... but the missiles bounce of his Shield spell.  So I use the Amulet of Second Chances, and then shoot his henchman with the Wand of Magic Missile instead.

How many times has the Wand functioned today?  How many charges does it have left?

-Hyp.


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## hong (Apr 23, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Does the Amulet of Second Chances have wording to cater for the fact that the swift action to use the Amulet is an 'event of your current turn', and therefore after the charge is spent, the spending of the charge is undone and you're left with an Amulet that still has one charge left for the day?
> 
> -Hyp.



 /beats Hypersmurf with a stick


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2007)

1) 12500.  This should pretty clearly be 1/4 the price of the Quicksilve Boots.  1/day half move is about 1/4 as useful as 2/day full move.  Given the insane pricing in MIC, I expect to see 1000 instead.

2) 50000 Better than the 9th-level Psion power that makes you immune to everything because that Power is a standard action that can't be Quickened no matter what.  However, it is still only 1/day.  However, thanks to attunement requirements, I'll call it only 50000 (less than the 9th-level power 1/day would cost) assuming that it is reasonably discernable to enemies that you are immune to damage and to do something else.  Multiply it by 1.5 if it completely blindsides them

3) 400 Cute, but not a big deal.  A cure minor once a day is 200 x4 for contigencied effect with no action but /2 for not actually healing you.

4) 2000--the list price would be 4000 for a 1st-level spell once a day at 10th caster level, but I halved it.

5) 40000.  This is effectively a Rod of Greater Twinning with several stricter requirements on what sort of spells will be twinned and who the second target will be.  Also it uses a Swift action, so more like a Rod of Greater Quickening, I guess.  I'm marking it down by a factor of 4 due to constraints, so 42,500, round down to 40000.

6) 350,000.  I'm charging for the 9th-level Nomad-only Psionic power Time Regression.  Note that it is a 9th-level discipline power, which tend to be extremely powerful because only members of that discipline can _ever_ learn them, and even then it costs XP.  That price is 311200 (most of it is the 250000 GP from paying the cost of the XP price in gold 50 times).  I then round up to 350000 because this item is a pain in the ass to GMs and fellow players alike and makes the game a chore of bookkeeping exactly what happened during the last round at all times (since you never know when Mr. Reload Amulet is going to strike and slow your game to a halt).  This is banned in my games for the annoyance reason more than anything else. 

7) 3000 GP.  Useful, particularly since unlike Cloak of Displacement Major, you can use this only when you know you need it thanks to the Immediate action.  Priced comparatively based on that factor.

8) 17000.  2000 for always stabilising (5x the other amulet), 15000 for saving you the price of a True Res (discounted for having the foresight to buy this first, then discounted again because you're totally screwed if you add other abilities to this item and it crumbles).

9) I'd price this at around 120k.  Wizards can pay 170k to do stupid-insane metamagic combos three times a day with the strongest greater rods, right?  Well now so can warrior-sorts (or more dangerously, Bo9S classes with Strikes), but they get a 2/3 discount because they have to wear it instead of having a slotless item.

10) 6000 GP.  Better healing than a CLW with CL1.  Immediate action.  Works at range (like the metamagic feat that gives touch stuff 30 foot range).  Can save lives.  I'll round the base price for the healing up to 600 gold (400 for 5.5, but this gives 7.5), then apply a x10 modifier.


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## Mistwell (Apr 23, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> I have a Wand of Magic Missile with 20 charges, and I use it to shoot the evil wizard... but the missiles bounce of his Shield spell.  So I use the Amulet of Second Chances, and then shoot his henchman with the Wand of Magic Missile instead.
> 
> How many times has the Wand functioned today?  How many charges does it have left?
> 
> -Hyp.




Hyp, this is a perfect example of what I sometimes complain about with your opinions on the rules, despite your obvious deep knowledge of the rules.  You know it's incredibly illogical to read this rule that way.  You know it doesn't work that way, is not intended to work that way, and there is no actual doubt on the subject.  And yet, you will pursue that line of thinking anyway.

So okay Hyp, in your game you can reset an infinite number of turns using this item.  In every other person on the planet's games, it will work one time a day.  Have fun!


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Hyp, this is a perfect example of what I sometimes complain about with your opinions on the rules, despite your obvious deep knowledge of the rules.  You know it's incredibly illogical to read this rule that way.  You know it doesn't work that way, is not intended to work that way, and there is no actual doubt on the subject.  And yet, you will pursue that line of thinking anyway.
> 
> So okay Hyp, in your game you can reset an infinite number of turns using this item.  In every other person on the planet's games, it will work one time a day.  Have fun!



 No, he's saying that the designers were being careless not to include a clause to that effect.  They even had precedent--Look at Time Regression


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## Mistwell (Apr 23, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> No, he's saying that the designers were being careless not to include a clause to that effect.  They even had precedent--Look at Time Regression




Things which are blatantly obvious SHOULD be left out.  Creating additional redundant text is a bad thing, not a good thing.  As long as everyone understands the meaning, it should end there.  And in this case, the meaning is clear and obvious.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Things which are blatantly obvious SHOULD be left out.  Creating additional redundant text is a bad thing, not a good thing.  As long as everyone understands the meaning, it should end there.  And in this case, the meaning is clear and obvious.



 It isn't clear, though.  It is fairly obvious that this should be the case in a balanced game, and I'd immediately houserule it, but by virtue of not spelling out why, it sets a precedent to question what doesn't get rolled back and why.  Do Magic Missile wand charges, as Hyp asked?  More importantly, since some things are preserved in the new timeline, and specifically people all remember what happened, does that mean that if I make a Diplomacy check as a full-round action (taking the penalty) to increase someone's attitude to Helpful that they remain Helpful?  After all, they still remember everything I said and did to convince them of this.


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## Mistwell (Apr 23, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> It isn't clear, though.





It is to anyone who can see the forest for the trees.



> It is fairly obvious that this should be the case in a balanced game, and I'd immediately houserule it, but by virtue of not spelling out why, it sets a precedent to question what doesn't get rolled back and why.




No it doesn't.  The item itself does not roll itself back.  It's right there in the text of this item, and it modifies the entire item. It comes as the last statement in the items description, in it's own paragraph, that it functions one time a day.  It's clear.



> Do Magic Missile wand charges, as Hyp asked?




Yes, which is also obvious.



> More importantly, since some things are preserved in the new timeline, and specifically people all remember what happened, does that mean that if I make a Diplomacy check as a full-round action (taking the penalty) to increase someone's attitude to Helpful that they remain Helpful?  After all, they still remember everything I said and did to convince them of this.




That is indeed a DM judgement call.  How would you normally modify the check if the person knew your motives?  I don't think it makes it any more or less a vague rule that this is up to the DM.  That sort of question was always up to the DM to modify.

I'm sorry guys, but I really think this is the perfect microcosm of a great deal of the flaws in your rules analysis, across many threads.  I can only hope that both of you see that your strict constructionist literalism is not beneficial when it gets to this kind of level, at least in this instance.  If the rules were written to eliminate even this level of doubt, the rule books would be thousands of pages long, and read like the text of the US Federal Income Tax laws.  Because it would always be "just one more sentence of explanatory text" followed by "just one more" to explain the explanatory text.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2007)

> Yes, which is also obvious.




Would your opinion change if the wand said "1 time per day" like the amulet did?



> That is indeed a DM judgement call. How would you normally modify the check if the person knew your motives? I don't think it makes it any more or less a vague rule that this is up to the DM. That sort of question was always up to the DM to modify.




No, I'm not asking whether they would get a bonus if I tried to convince them again.  I'm asking whether I even have to try--it seems plausible that they are already convinced from the phantom round before I used the amulet.



> I'm sorry guys, but I really think this is the perfect microcosm of a great deal of the flaws in your rules analysis, across many threads. I can only hope that both of you see that your strict constructionist literalism is not beneficial when it gets to this kind of level, at least in this instance. If the rules were written to eliminate even this level of doubt, the rule books would be thousands of pages long, and read like the text of the US Federal Income Tax laws. Because it would always be "just one more sentence of explanatory text" followed by "just one more" to explain the explanatory text.




I disagree--preciseness is incredibly crucial in the writing of the rules.  Anything else is careless.  As it comes to my game, as I said, the unfairness of the exploit that they left into the rules is so obvious that I would immediately houserule it.  My game is built upon minor houserules here and there to increase playability, so really, this strict constructionism is only useful as a common parlance when speaking across games, such as on an online forum.  Using anything else in such a situation is meaningless.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2007)

Mistwell--here's another thought that might help you see why having clear rules here is a good idea:  As you stated, if somebody uses another 1/day item and then I use my amulet, they get back their charge.  What if somebody uses this amulet to go back a round and then (since MIC will probably price it as 1000 GP or something) earlier in the last round's initiative, somebody else uses theirs to go back a round so that we never actually even got to the replaced time where the first amulet would have been used but wasn't.  Does anyone get their 1/day usage back?  What if one person with an amulet readies an action to use their amulet as someone else was activating theirs?


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## Mistwell (Apr 23, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Would your opinion change if the wand said "1 time per day" like the amulet did?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I don't see any benefit to engaging this further.  We all know what the item means.  In my opinion, any time we all know what is meant, it wasn't careless writing.  That's the only point of communication really, is to convey your meaning to someone else.  They did that job.  You can call it a houserule or RAW.  In this case, the distinction between the two seems moot.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> I don't see any benefit to engaging this further.  We all know what the item means.  In my opinion, any time we all know what is meant, it wasn't careless writing.  That's the only point of communication really, is to convey your meaning to someone else.  They did that job.  You can call it a houserule or RAW.  In this case, the distinction between the two seems moot.



 It won't be moot when another rule interacts with it though, which seems increasingly likely with some of the interesting combo abilities WotC is brewing up.  Imagine a feat 

Charge-Happy: You love items with a limited number of charges per day.  Whenever you use them, you get a +1 morale bonus to attack rolls for the next X time.

Would activating the amulet activate this feat?


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## John Q. Mayhem (Apr 23, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> It isn't clear, though.  It is fairly obvious that this should be the case in a balanced game




As an aside, anyone else find this funny?


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2007)

John Q. Mayhem said:
			
		

> As an aside, anyone else find this funny?



 Nope--I don't.  It is fairly obvious that Orbs should allow SR and not pierce AMF in a balanced game and that Wraithstrike has no place in a balanced game in its current incarnation, but look how long those thread go   You can find someone to argue against fairly obvious balance positions easily.  Heck, I bet there's someone out there who thinks Divine Metamagic or the Dweomercheater of Mystra are fair, or that Pun-Pun is underpowered 

Just becaise one interpretation is obviously more balanced doesn't mean it is any more clear.  In fact, WotC, particularly in the FAQ or RotG, have come down on the unbalanced or unreasonable side of an ambiguity more than once.


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## Wolfwood2 (Apr 23, 2007)

Could we get some clarification on the Amulet of Second Chances?  It seems like some people are assuming this sets things back an entire round, which means that everybody else's actions get undone as well as your own.

To me it just looks like an instant do-over device.  You try something, it doesn't work (or doesn't work the way you hope) so you activate the amulet, scoot your miniature back, and say, "Oh wait, I try this instead."

That's not going to require a lot of book-keeping or disrupt the game for a long time while everybody remembers where they were a round ago, like I think Rystil is assuming.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2007)

Wolfwood2 said:
			
		

> Could we get some clarification on the Amulet of Second Chances?  It seems like some people are assuming this sets things back an entire round, which means that everybody else's actions get undone as well as your own.
> 
> To me it just looks like an instant do-over device.  You try something, it doesn't work (or doesn't work the way you hope) so you activate the amulet, scoot your miniature back, and say, "Oh wait, I try this instead."
> 
> That's not going to require a lot of book-keeping or disrupt the game for a long time while everybody remembers where they were a round ago, like I think Rystil is assuming.



 You could definitely be right, but note that Mistwell said: "Affected creatures remain aware of the now non-existent turn, but free to make new choices in new turn."  This makes no sense unless it sets you back the whole turn


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## hong (Apr 23, 2007)

The amulet of second chances resets everyone's turn. It's like instant rewind to the top of the initiative order.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> The amulet of second chances resets everyone's turn. It's like instant rewind to the top of the initiative order.



 Right, that's what I thought.  It's exactly the same as the Nomad-only 9th-level Psion power, without the XP cost and creatures other than you remember the last round.


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## Wolfwood2 (Apr 23, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> 1) 12500.  This should pretty clearly be 1/4 the price of the Quicksilve Boots.  1/day half move is about 1/4 as useful as 2/day full move.  Given the insane pricing in MIC, I expect to see 1000 instead.




But it's just not worth 12,500 in the eyes of your average player.  What player would seriously pay that much for a little free movement once per day when they could buy some Boots of Speed instead?  Nobody, that's who.  At least, nobody who doesn't have some uber-combo of doom rules exploit built around the item, and the item should not be priced to accommodate those people.



> 2) 50000 Better than the 9th-level Psion power that makes you immune to everything because that Power is a standard action that can't be Quickened no matter what.  However, it is still only 1/day.  However, thanks to attunement requirements, I'll call it only 50000 (less than the 9th-level power 1/day would cost) assuming that it is reasonably discernable to enemies that you are immune to damage and to do something else.  Multiply it by 1.5 if it completely blindsides them




I could have an Amulet of Natural Armor +5 for 50,000.  I think for most characters I would rather have the amulet of natural armor.



> 5) 40000.  This is effectively a Rod of Greater Twinning with several stricter requirements on what sort of spells will be twinned and who the second target will be.  Also it uses a Swift action, so more like a Rod of Greater Quickening, I guess.  I'm marking it down by a factor of 4 due to constraints, so 42,500, round down to 40000.




(whistles)  Who would buy it at that price?  I mean, I'd rather have the periapt of wisdom +6, you know?  It doesn't seem like the actual good that would come from it is worth 40,000.



> 6) 350,000.  I'm charging for the 9th-level Nomad-only Psionic power Time Regression.  Note that it is a 9th-level discipline power, which tend to be extremely powerful because only members of that discipline can _ever_ learn them, and even then it costs XP.  That price is 311200 (most of it is the 250000 GP from paying the cost of the XP price in gold 50 times).  I then round up to 350000 because this item is a pain in the ass to GMs and fellow players alike and makes the game a chore of bookkeeping exactly what happened during the last round at all times (since you never know when Mr. Reload Amulet is going to strike and slow your game to a halt).  This is banned in my games for the annoyance reason more than anything else.




If hong is correct, you might well be right.  I'd say the real solution would be to change it so it works like I thought at first.  You could price it considerably lower then too.



> 9) I'd price this at around 170k.  Wizards can pay 170k to do stupid-insane metamagic combos three times a day with the strongest greater rods, right?  Well now so can warrior-sorts (or more dangerously, Bo9S classes with Strikes).




But shouldn't items be priced for your regular Fighter with Power Attack?


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2007)

Wolfwood2 said:
			
		

> But it's just not worth 12,500 in the eyes of your average player.  What player would seriously pay that much for a little free movement once per day when they could buy some Boots of Speed instead?  Nobody, that's who.  At least, nobody who doesn't have some uber-combo of doom rules exploit built around the item, and the item should not be priced to accommodate those people.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 I think your disconnect with me is that you price these for people who don't really want them instead of for people who want them--for instance, gloves that make every attack add your Sneak Attack damage are not as useful for the Rogue1/Fighter10 as for the Rogue11.  Also, do recall that you can put the Natural Armour or Wisdom bonus onto the same amulet and have both.  As to comparisons to Metamagic Rods--those Metamagic Rods are worth every penny, if not overpowered.  Mistwell has said he doesn't agree on the Metamagic Rods, which is interesting.  I'm willing to ask about them in another thread (I won't bring up the MIC items, just the Metamagic Rods).


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## hong (Apr 23, 2007)

Wolfwood2 said:
			
		

> But it's just not worth 12,500 in the eyes of your average player.  What player would seriously pay that much for a little free movement once per day when they could buy some Boots of Speed instead?




The barbarian who wants to move and full attack in the same round, which is a very, very powerful ability.


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## Wolfwood2 (Apr 23, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I think your disconnect with me is that you price these for people who don't really want them instead of for people who want them--for instance, gloves that make every attack add your Sneak Attack damage are not as useful for the Rogue1/Fighter10 as for the Rogue11.  Also, do recall that you can put the Natural Armour or Wisdom bonus onto the same amulet and have both.  As to comparisons to Metamagic Rods--those Metamagic Rods are worth every penny, if not overpowered.  Mistwell has said he doesn't agree on the Metamagic Rods, which is interesting.  I'm willing to ask about them in another thread (I won't bring up the MIC items, just the Metamagic Rods).




I think items should be priced for people who want them, but not necessarily for a person who wants them the absolute most.  If your character is such that a particular item is absolutely perfect for you, it's okay that you get it a little underpriced so that it'll still be competitive for people for whom the item is not absolutely perfect.  If this threatens to somehow break the game then it's better addressed by arbitrary DM ruling "sorry, but the magical enchancement doesn't seem to work will with these feats/maneuvers" than by pricing restrictions.

And sure you can get other enchantments put on the same item, but you're still under the same total gold piece value limitations by level.  40,000 or 50,000 gp is a significant chunk of character wealth until all but the highest levels.  It's a serious investment for something that only works once or a few times per day.  That's why people pick the big six, because while something might be a really neat trick they can just plain get more value by investing in a magic weapon or a stat booster that will work reliably every single round.


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## gnfnrf (Apr 23, 2007)

Wolfwood2 said:
			
		

> Could we get some clarification on the Amulet of Second Chances?  It seems like some people are assuming this sets things back an entire round, which means that everybody else's actions get undone as well as your own.




"You undo all the events of your current turn and begin the turn again" as a swift action.  It only resets events that occurred during your action.

As for the question of whether it resets its own daily use counter, this is silly.  Charges/uses are reset as a consequence of the effect having never actually occurred.  Since the effect of the amulet has occurred (things have been reset), the daily usage counts.

Otherwise, it would reset events to the beginning of your turn, but in resetting ever using the amulet, you wouldn't in fact be at the beginning of your turn, since you didn't use the amulet.

--
gnfnrf


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## hong (Apr 23, 2007)

gnfnrf said:
			
		

> "You undo all the events of your current turn and begin the turn again" as a swift action.  It only resets events that occurred during your action.
> 
> As for the question of whether it resets its own daily use counter, this is silly.  Charges/uses are reset as a consequence of the effect having never actually occurred.  Since the effect of the amulet has occurred (things have been reset), the daily usage counts.
> 
> ...



 Hm, you may be right. It only resets to the start of your own turn, as opposed to the top of the initiative order.

Still damn-near broken, though. Call it 100,000 gp and on probation.


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## moritheil (Apr 23, 2007)

Ah, it's not a real new book discussion thread until a heated debate pops up.


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## Deset Gled (Apr 23, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Fortunately the rules for adding those common types of bonuses to an existing item have changed, making it less expensive to do so.
> 
> Because this is an issue likely to come up for a lot of items, I'll give a brief run-down on those rules.





Before anything else, I would like to voice my opinion that this is one of the stupidest item-related rules I can imagine.  If you're going to do this, you might as well throw the entire concept of item slots out the window.  I would never, under any circumstances, allow this option in a game I ran.

/rant

1. Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker: Swift command action 1/day move up to half your speed as part of the same swift action used to activate the charm; this movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity; round down to the nearest 5-foot increment when relevant.

-My biggest concer here is that the movement does not provoke AoOs.  Essentially, this could let a monk 5' step a 40' distance.  I probably wouldn't allow it on principal (it kinda kills the tumble skill).  If allowed, I would probably price this item around 10-15k.  I give the writer's credit for trying to reference the Horizon Walker.

2. Scarab of Invulnerability: Swift command action 1/day gives 1 round of total immunity to all forms of damage (including ability damage), from all things including weapons, spells, psionics, poison, environment, or anything else causing damage. Must wear fro 24 hours before it attunes to you and can function.

-Pretty nice, but you'll probably end up wasting the charge a significant amount of the time.  The "affinity" time is critical to it being balanced.  30k.

3. Brooch of Stability: 1/day when your HPs drop to -1 or lower, automatically stabilize (assuming damage was not enough to kill you).

-Only usefull at low levels.  100gp.

4. Amber Amulet of Vermin, Giant Bee: Standard command action 1/day summons a giant bee, as summon natures ally spell, for 1 minute.

-A slotted Figurine of Wondrous Power, usable more often but for less time.  As a nitpick, I would say that it should require a 1 full round action if it's going to reference SNA.  I'll say 5k or so.

5. Amulet of Retributive Healing: Swift command action 3/day, next effect you use before end of your turn that heals another creature's damage also heals you the same amount (as long as you could be healed by that same effect). If effect heals multiple creatures, you still only get healed one time.

-Nice for melee clerics.  Otherwise, basically a limited version of a Chain Spell metamagic rod.  4k.

6. Amulet of Second Chances: Swift command action 1/day to undo all events of your current turn and begin the turn again. Includes moving self and creatures back to positions of start of turn, removing damage and conditions, and in all other ways resetting the turn. Affected creatures remain aware of the now non-existent turn, but free to make new choices in new turn.

-One hundred billion dollars.

7. Torc of Displacement: Immediate mental action grants concealment for 1 round of a percentage based on charges you use. 3 charges/day, renews at dawn, spendable as follows: 1 charge 20% miss chance, 2 30%, 3 40%.

-I like this one a lot.  Probably needs a "must wear for 24 hrs" clause to prevent abuse.  The 1 round/use is limiting.  3k if you add in the "24 hr affinity" clause, 13k without it.

8. Scarab of Stabilization: Constant if drop below 0 hp but still alive, auto stabilize. One time use secondary power, if drop below -10 hp become -1 hp instead and stabilize (scarab crumbles to dust if secondary ability used).

-Every bit as good as a Contingent Cure (moreso, if you face attacks that can leave you at negative hundreds of hit points).  Pricing should be similar to that of a one time use Major Ring of Spell Storing, as that's the only other way to mimc the ability for non-casters.  I'll say 50k.

9. Heartseeking Amulet: Swift command action 3/day to make next single melee attack made within that turn a melee touch attack.

-More room for abuse than I can shake a stick at.  75k.

10. Amulet of Emergency Healing: Immediate command action 3/day to provide instant healing of 1d4+5 points of damage to self or creature in 30 feet of you. Can even be used to prevent death of creature reduced to below -9 hit points, ans long as healing returns target to -9 or higher.

-Immediate action + ranged heal + ability to undo death = very powerful.  Pretty much impossible to balance, as it requires a very high price for the utility but by the time you can afford it the limited healing ability won't make enough of a difference.   I probably wouldn't allow it, but if I had to I'd say 60k.


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## Slaved (Apr 23, 2007)

Deset Gled said:
			
		

> 4. Amber Amulet of Vermin, Giant Bee: Standard command action 1/day summons a giant bee, as summon natures ally spell, for 1 minute.
> 
> -A slotted Figurine of Wondrous Power, usable more often but for less time.  As a nitpick, I would say that it should require a 1 full round action if it's going to reference SNA.  I'll say 5k or so.




I was wondering, since this is a giant bee and those basically hit once and then die because they hit does that change anyones pricing for this item?

Since I quoted Deset Gled for him it would be a 5kgp item to use a standard action once per day to make a creature that probably hits once and then dies.

Does it work like normal summonings and goes away when it dies? If so its poison may or may not work initially and will never work for after 1 minute because the creature only sticks around for 1 minute at the most anyway.


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## Deset Gled (Apr 23, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> Since I quoted Deset Gled for him it would be a 5kgp item to use a standard action once per day to make a creature that probably hits once and then dies.




The attack is pretty weak, but I think that there's also a nice utility aspect to the item.  You can have the bee fly with items or small people, or just generally act as a distraction.  My point of comparison was the Ebony Fly figurine, which is usable 3/week, but stays around for 12 hours and cannot attack.  The Fly costs 10k.  The limited time span for the bee limits its utility, but 1/day usage means you worry less about wasting it.  The fact that it can attack also makes it a better distraction device.

I believe that the poison should stay after the duration expires, but I don't have a rules quote for it.


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## Mistwell (Apr 23, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> I was wondering, since this is a giant bee and those basically hit once and then die because they hit does that change anyones pricing for this item?
> 
> Since I quoted Deset Gled for him it would be a 5kgp item to use a standard action once per day to make a creature that probably hits once and then dies.
> 
> Does it work like normal summonings and goes away when it dies? If so its poison may or may not work initially and will never work for after 1 minute because the creature only sticks around for 1 minute at the most anyway.




There is a long list of different Amber Amulets of Summoning in the book.  For what it is worth, this is the least costly one, probably because of the reasons you mention.  Yes, it goes away when it dies (but can be re-summoned the next day).  

To me, it would be worth it for the flanking you can get from the bee.  Or, if you have a divination spell that can follow along with a creature, or see through it's eyes (which happen to have darkvision and a good spot check), the bee could be useful for a minute of flying scouting.  And since it is a 5 foot long bee, it could even be useful for triggering traps.

Fropm the SRD:



> Although many times larger, growing to a length of about 5 feet, giant bees behave generally the same as their smaller cousins. Giant bees are usually not aggressive except when defending themselves or their hive.
> Poison (Ex)
> 
> Injury, Fortitude DC 11, initial and secondary damage 1d4 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based. A giant bee that successfully stings another creature pulls away, leaving its stinger in the creature. The bee then dies.
> ...


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## Slaved (Apr 23, 2007)

Deset Gled said:
			
		

> The attack is pretty weak, but I think that there's also a nice utility aspect to the item.  You can have the bee fly with items or small people, or just generally act as a distraction.  My point of comparison was the Ebony Fly figurine, which is usable 3/week, but stays around for 12 hours and cannot attack.  The Fly costs 10k.  The limited time span for the bee limits its utility, but 1/day usage means you worry less about wasting it.  The fact that it can attack also makes it a better distraction device.




That makes sense. I guess I was thinking more about a bag of tricks and which I would rather have.

The gray bag of tricks is 900gp, is useable 10 times a week, and the creature sticks around for 10 minutes. The randomness makes it a little less useful for planning around it but the other two factors make it to me a lot more useful in general. I would rather have the bag of tricks, sadly.



			
				Deset Gled said:
			
		

> I believe that the poison should stay after the duration expires, but I don't have a rules quote for it.




That might make a difference for pricing   Get a few of these and milk them for poison every day!


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## Mistwell (Apr 23, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> That makes sense. I guess I was thinking more about a bag of tricks and which I would rather have.
> 
> The gray bag of tricks is 900gp, is useable 10 times a week, and the creature sticks around for 10 minutes. The randomness makes it a little less useful for planning around it but the other two factors make it to me a lot more useful in general. I would rather have the bag of tricks, sadly.
> 
> ...




Except it's Fortitude DC 11.  That's not really high enough to be effective at anything beyond low levels.


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## Slaved (Apr 23, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Except it's Fortitude DC 11.  That's not really high enough to be effective at anything beyond low levels.




That is true. Although I assume that with craft(poison) a character could distill it or something.


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## Deset Gled (Apr 23, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> That makes sense. I guess I was thinking more about a bag of tricks and which I would rather have.
> 
> ...
> 
> That might make a difference for pricing   Get a few of these and milk them for poison every day!




I would say the fighting abilities of the be are probably closest to the rust colored bag, which sells for 3k.  Of course, none of those animals can fly, so a price of 4k or 5k seems justified to me.

Yeah, if you could harves the poison it might be nice.  But I would expect most poison crafters to already be raising a hive of bees for poison for much bigger quantities.  This item would probably make a nice "portable hive" for them.  Of cource, I've never actually seen someone take Craft(poison) before.


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## Slaved (Apr 23, 2007)

Deset Gled said:
			
		

> I would say the fighting abilities of the be are probably closest to the rust colored bag, which sells for 3k.  Of course, none of those animals can fly, so a price of 4k or 5k seems justified to me.




Well, I was thinking that the bee only gets one hit in or can only take one hit. Whichever comes first pretty much ends the fight for it.

Does anyone know if you can take a 5' step into someones square and avoid that attack of opportunity?


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## Mistwell (Apr 23, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> Well, I was thinking that the bee only gets one hit in or can only take one hit. Whichever comes first pretty much ends the fight for it.




I agree.  If the bee is in combat, it will die very quick.  It either hits something, or gets hit, and in each case almost every time it's going away.  Pretty weak, as far as actual combat goes (again, except for flanking).



> Does anyone know if you can take a 5' step into someones square and avoid that attack of opportunity?




I don't know.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I can certainly respect pricing it lower than what I listed.  However, I cannot respect pricing it anywhere near the MIC price.  Compare to Rod of Greater Quicken, which many people say is broken.  Do you think Rod of Greater Quicken is overpriced?



 Just in reference to this point, 46/50 people rated Metamagic Rods as correctly priced or lower.  The plurality think it is correctly priced, though the bloc of slightly underpiced / vastly underpriced / broken at any price constitutes over half of all respondents.


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## two (Apr 24, 2007)

*I can't help feel...*

With a lot of these items, that 3.5 is becoming some sort of escalating game of "one upmanship."

A savvy player can trivially create pretty powerful and sometimes overwhelming characters by crafting or buying various powerful and generally underpriced items.

Really, it is taking a lot of the joy out of min/max.  When it is so easy to generate powerful results... why bother?


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## hong (Apr 24, 2007)

two said:
			
		

> With a lot of these items, that 3.5 is becoming some sort of escalating game of "one upmanship."
> 
> A savvy player can trivially create pretty powerful and sometimes overwhelming characters by crafting or buying various powerful and generally underpriced items.
> 
> Really, it is taking a lot of the joy out of min/max.  When it is so easy to generate powerful results... why bother?



 That might well be their cunning plan.


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## hong (Apr 24, 2007)

Deset Gled said:
			
		

> Before anything else, I would like to voice my opinion that this is one of the stupidest item-related rules I can imagine.  If you're going to do this, you might as well throw the entire concept of item slots out the window.  I would never, under any circumstances, allow this option in a game I ran.




Slots are not entirely obsolete, because any enchantment that ISN'T one of the big six still gets the +50%.

Besides, if what you want is just to limit how many plusses people can get, the fact that bonuses are typed already does that pretty well. There's no point getting a +4 Str belt and +4 Str gloves, for example. IME, if you allowed free crafting of items, it wasn't too hard to spread out the plusses across different slots so you never had to double up. The only effect was to have people with lots of minor items as opposed to a few really potent ones.


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## Deset Gled (Apr 26, 2007)

*bump*

Is this going to continue?  I'm enjoying this game.


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## Shadowknight (Apr 27, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> See, I get around this problem by not wearing pants.





Sigged!


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## Mistwell (Apr 27, 2007)

Deset Gled said:
			
		

> *bump*
> 
> Is this going to continue?  I'm enjoying this game.




Yes, going to continue.

However, the game is starting to slow down with guesses, which is fine because you can only do this for so long.  So I am thinking of samplying like 5 items from each of the major remaining categories instead of 10.  Thoughts?

Also, guesses on the last group are still open!


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## Creamsteak (Nov 14, 2007)

*Boots of the Marshes:* This footgear allows the wearer to move more freely in the marshes. The wearer is able to travel across marshes (including bogs, hedgerows, and undergrowth) at his normal speed, leaving no tracks. In addition, these boots grant the wearer a +5 bonus to swim checks made to move through a bog or escape from quicksand.
Faint abjuration and transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, cat's grace, pass without trace, creator must have 5 ranks in the swim skill; Price xxxx gp; Weight 1 lb.

What do you think?


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## Thurbane (Nov 14, 2007)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> *Boots of the Marshes:* This footgear allows the wearer to move more freely in the marshes. The wearer is able to travel across marshes (including bogs, hedgerows, and undergrowth) at his normal speed, leaving no tracks. In addition, these boots grant the wearer a +5 bonus to swim checks made to move through a bog or escape from quicksand.
> Faint abjuration and transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, cat's grace, pass without trace, creator must have 5 ranks in the swim skill; Price xxxx gp; Weight 1 lb.
> 
> What do you think?



Sounds roughly equivalent to Boots of the North. Nice item, BTW.


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