# Jack Vance, Dying Earth, and the Primer of Practical Magic



## redkobold (Mar 18, 2004)

Any Jack Vance, Dying Earth Fans out there purchased the d20 Primer of Practical Magic by Pelgrane Press?

If anyone has purchased it or any other Dying Earth RPG stuff I would love to hear what they think.  

After downloading the DERPG quick rules I did not feel the I would like the DERPG system because I am not quick on my feet and my vocabulary would be woefully inadequate to do the game justice the way it needs to be played but I am a big Jack Vance fan and am interested in picking up some of the non d20 supplements just for ideas and flavor.

For those of who are interested here are some links:

Home
http://www.bloggs.net/index.htm

Primer of Practical Magic description
http://www.bloggs.net/article5.htm

Products
http://www.bloggs.net/products.htm


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## Krieg (Mar 18, 2004)

I started a thread on the D20 board to see if anyone had gotten it yet as well.

I ordered a copy from FRPGames & will let you know what I think once it gets here.

Hopefully it lives up to it's potential.


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## mmadsen (Mar 18, 2004)

lyonstudio said:
			
		

> Any Jack Vance, Dying Earth Fans out there purchased the d20 Primer of Practical Magic by Pelgrane Press?



I have not yet picked it up, but I suspect I will.

The product description:

Experience the wondours and subtle magic of the Dying Earth in your d20 game! Created by the estimable Jeanry Chandler, it is packed with spells, items and new classes, the Primer opens up new tactics for your magician. Use the Excellent Prismatic Spray, become a Diabolist, or manufacture creatures in your vats. Provides a subtle but distinct advantage to any magician in a 3rd or 3,5 Edition game. Requires the use of the Player's Handbook by Wizards of the Coast. 

Not long ago, in an interview in the Excellent Prismatic Spray magazine, Gary Gygax described the profound influence that the work of Jack Vance had upon the original design and overall feel of Dungeons and Dragons™. For perhaps the first time since the very early days of that game, a new d20 sourcebook is being introduced, which draws heavily upon the influence of the realm of the Dying Earth. 



The Primer of Practical Magic, represents a return to a darker, more eerie feel to role playing, to a time when the game wasn’t as polarized between pure good and pure evil, but had more moral gray areas. When a thief was a dubious individual who stole things for a living, not just a loner with an alternative lifestyle and a knack for picking locks. A time when a magician was someone you couldn’t always assume was a kindly old man or a stereotypical villain, but was likely to be something in between, yet always dangerous to annoy without good reason. 

The Primer of Practical Magic hearkens to a time when players didn’t know all the spells in the rulebook yet, or all the monsters one could possibly encounter; a time before players argued about every rule, because they were still caught up in the mystery of the game. Toward this noble end of casting a shadow of renewed mystery over the d20 gaming experience, The Primer includes many features which the discerning gamer will appreciate. 


Jack Vance’s Dying Earth novels such as The Eyes of the Overworld, Cugels Saga, The Dying Earth, and Rhialto The Marvelous. These spells are sometimes discreet in their effects, sometimes flashy and powerful, but always clever and amusing in their application. They range from the subtle, thinking magician’s cantrips and low-level charms, such as spells to calm a barking dog; put the smell of wine on a rivals breath; instantly clear the roadside dust from one’s garments; or cantrips to curdle a neighbors soup, or make a frog take on the temporary appearance of a beautiful maiden; through the unwholesome and dangerous summoning magic of the Diabolist, such as The Spell of the Ominous Enthusiast, which conjures forth a small blue demon which can perform any single task with the greatest of skill, but then demands and attempts to forcibly acquire the liver of its summoner as payment. 

Finally, the Primer includes a few of the truly mighty spells which made the Magicians of the Dying Earth individuals to be both feared and respected: Phandaal’s Gyrator, The Evocation of Blue Havoc, The Charm of Forlorn Encystment, The Charm of the Omnipotent Sphere and the original Excellent Prismatic Spray (not to be confused with another spell with a similar name) are all mighty new weapons suitable the magical arsenals of the powerful magicians. 

For those who always felt there should have been some element of danger and uncertainty to spellcasting, the Primer introduces an optional spell failure system, based on the system in the Dying Earth RPG ™. No longer is casting a spell automatic guarantee of its routine success. Rather, the outcome is a function of the power of the spell contrasted with the skill of the caster, and results can range from Dismal Failure to Illustrious Success. The latter may be an unexpected boon, while the former can cause dire consequences indeed, which is why inexperienced spell dabblers and hedge wizards should think twice before attempting to wield the more powerful arcane magical formulae found in this book. In addition to spells, there are numerous new magical items. Over 40 new Ioun Stones convey a variety of powers and skill effects, and dozens of other curious magic items fill the pages of the Primer. These again range from the very subtle, such as a sheath to wear over your tongue so that one can endure the most disgusting repasts without crying out or vomiting (and thus potentially offending the wrong person), or books containing insulting verses so scathing they can bring a strong man to his knees; through such powerful and useful artifacts as the ever lengthening rope; Laccodel’s Rune, which protects the wearer against nearly any form of caustic magic; Mieux’s Pantelloons which puff up to frustrate arrows or darts, and can allow the wearer to float away to safety; or the much feared Schiavona of Kavic which conveys superb fighting ability to even the most inept fencer. 

Those players not satisfied with the magical creations of others can dabble with the manufacture of their own Vat Creatures, and through the medium of magic and living flesh, create anything from a comely concubine with whom to while away the twilight hours, to a burly and hirsute guard – beast to chase away uninvited solicitors. 

Finally, The Primer includes three remarkable prestige classes for those interested in fully immersing themselves in the Dying Earth milieu. The Sharper is a con artist and a thief, whose natural abilities make it just as easy for her to earn a living taking down marks in any big city as creeping around in the wilderness on a foolhardy adventure. The Diabolist is that rather scary individual who specializes in the control, banishment, and / or binding of Demons and creatures from the outer planes. Thanks to the invaluable contributions of Ian Thompson, The Primer includes several of the unique spells and abilities from the DERPG Demons of the Dying Earth book, from which are formed a deadly arsenal of abilities and skills for the formidable Diabolist. Finally, the mighty Arch-Magician class allows players to flex true magical muscles, and become the kind of character you thought of the first time you ever heard Black Sabbath’s ‘The Wizard’. 

Not since Call of Cthulhu™ introduced the feel of Lovecraft to role playing games, has a genre as rich as the high fantasy world of Jack Vance’s Dying Earth been so accessible to d20 gamers. The Primer of Practical Magic, available soon from Pelgrane press, is sure to profoundly enrich the d20 experience, and hopefully it will be only the beginning.


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## Belegbeth (Mar 19, 2004)

This looks great!

But one thing is a bit unclear.  Is this book meant to help d20 players set their campaigns in the Dying Earth setting (and to translate existing DE material into d20 terms), or introduce "Vancian" elements into their d20 (DnD) campaign?  Or both?

And now if only Pelgrane Press turned their eyes towards Vance's Lyonesse novels...


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## Gutboy Barrelhouse (Mar 19, 2004)

I bought Pelgrane's Dying Earth RPG last year.
It is very well done, but is not a good fit for my group, so I have never run or played it - but I'd sure like to.
There is a mechanic in the game which on occasion requires players to speak in character, using their best approximation of Vance's flowery phrasing and immense vocabulary - the reward is XPs.
The sword-monkeys in my group said "no way, dude."

If your group has a majority of "master thespian" type players, then they ought to love the DE RPG. 

This is the first I've heard of the d20 supplement. Automatically cool because it's derived from Vance, but probably not my personal cup o' tea.


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## mmadsen (Mar 19, 2004)

Krieg said:
			
		

> I started a thread on the D20 board to see if anyone had gotten it yet as well.



For anyone interested, that thread is at http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=80672.


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## Gez (Mar 19, 2004)

Damn! I want it now! I just hope the editing is better than on that http://www.bloggs.net/article5.htm page.

"Jack Vance’s Dying Earth novels such as The Eyes of the Overworld, Cugels Saga, The Dying Earth, and Rhialto The Marvelous. These spells are sometimes discreet..."

Hello? Don't you think something's missing?


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## mmadsen (Mar 19, 2004)

As much as I enjoyed the Dying Earth core rulebook, it makes sense to put out d20 supplements; I think you could go a long way toward a Dying Earth feel with just a few simple changes to D&D: 
Remove all spellcasters except Wizards.
Allow Bluff and Diplomacy to achieve much more than in a typical D&D game -- and let them work on PCs.
Add Fumbles.  Lots of Fumbles.
Elicit erudite prose from your players.
Introduce elaborate costumes, gourmet delicacies, etc.


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## Voadam (Mar 19, 2004)

It looks very cool but $30.00 for 136 pages is pretty steep.

Here is the description from Amazon:

Book Description
The Primer is filled with extraordinary spells, items and new powers for the magicians in your campaign. Whether you wish to spin your enemies to death with Phandaal's Gyrator or control them like a puppet with Clambard's Rein of Long Nerves, the is the libram for your discerning wizard's library. 
The Primer contains: 

*Over 100 spells of all levels 

*22 magic items including the Cloud of Knives, 

*Rules for growing henchmen and creatures in magical vats 

*New character classes including the fearsome Diabolist 

*New magician feats 

All these new powers find there way to you from the Dying Earth RPG, but you don't need the Dying Earth RPG to use and appreciate the powerful sorcery within. The Primer has been carefully balanced and playtested to work with the latest rules and provides a subtle but distinct advantage to those who use it. 

The Primer requires the use of the Dungeons and Dragons Player's Handbook published by Wizards of the Coast. 



Growing henchman in vats is a pretty tempting reason to get it.


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## Gutboy Barrelhouse (Mar 19, 2004)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> As much as I enjoyed the Dying Earth core rulebook, it makes sense to put out d20 supplements; I think you could go a long way toward a Dying Earth feel with just a few simple changes to D&D:
> Remove all spellcasters except Wizards.
> Allow Bluff and Diplomacy to achieve much more than in a typical D&D game -- and let them work on PCs.
> Add Fumbles.  Lots of Fumbles.
> ...




It is with the acme of acuity and blandishment that you postulate such illuminative precepts; perforce: your post is a veritable nonpareil!


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## Gez (Mar 19, 2004)

Voadam said:
			
		

> Growing henchman in vats is a pretty tempting reason to get it.




Agreed.


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## Olive (Mar 21, 2004)

Voadam said:
			
		

> Growing henchman in vats is a pretty tempting reason to get it.




Indeed it is.

So anyone actually got this yet?


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## mmadsen (Mar 21, 2004)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> As much as I enjoyed the Dying Earth core rulebook, it makes sense to put out d20 supplements; I think you could go a long way toward a Dying Earth feel with just a few simple changes to D&D:
> Remove all spellcasters except Wizards.
> Allow Bluff and Diplomacy to achieve much more than in a typical D&D game -- and let them work on PCs.
> Add Fumbles.  Lots of Fumbles.
> ...



Anyone have any other suggestions?

(Oh, and growing henchman in vats is a _very_ tempting reason to get _The Primer_.)


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## drnuncheon (Mar 21, 2004)

One of the things I loved about the Dying Earth RPG was that the social mechanics were as detailed as the combat ones. If I were going to try for a DE feel in D&D, I'd definitely want to have 'social combat' rules.  The debate rules in *Dynasties and Demagogues* might be a start.  Social combat feats are a must.  ("I'll distract him with my 'Obfuscatory Reference' feat.")

More things to do:
- Remove paladins. In fact, remove alignments totally - everyone is morally bankrupt anyway, so why bother?
- Heavily encourage use of the Rogue class.  In fact, pretty much everyone should be a rogue, unless they're a wizard. And even if they're a wizard they're probably a rogue.
- Remove standard magical items and spells.  Everything Has A Name.  If a spell doesn't have a wizard's name attached to it - or at least a few good adjectives - then how are you going to know it's good enough to use?

In fact, that would be a great way to get some lesser-used spells in there.  Forget _magic missile_ and _fireball_ - Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter is far more Vancian-sounding than those, and far more in theme with the books for that matter.  (You might want to have a large number of spell sources to choose from before you take this step.)  If you absolutely have to add in some of the old spells, rename them - but your playes will invariably still call 'Saandoval's Evocation of Bursting Flame' _fireball_, so it's best to just leave them out.


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## Drifter Bob (Mar 24, 2004)

*The Primer of Practical Magic*

Greetings spell dabblers and merlmelants,

I am Jeanry Chandler, the author of The Primer of Practical Magic.  I'd be glad to answer any questions any of you might have about it.  Just reviewing this thread, I can make a couple of points.

1 As one of y'all noticed, there is an error on the Pelgrane page describing the Primer which should be fixed in a day or two.  They did all the promotional stuff very last minute, about four months after the actual book was finished (except for the binding, which took forever) so it ws a bit rushed.  The book itself, however, was quite carefully edited.

2 There is another mistake in the promotional material which actually made it to the cover of the book, there are actually over 50 magic items, considerably more than it lists.

3 Other than this, it's a great book!

4 The speculations I have read in this thread match pretty closely the way we tried to do the book.  To answer another query, it was deisgned BOTH for people who want to run a Dying Earth campaign in D20 as well as people who simply wish to indtoduce some Dying Earth elements into their campaign, whatever flavor it may currently have.  There are suggestions on how to implement both approaches, and the material is sufficiently flexible for either use.

5 I do, by the way, highly reccomend the other Pelgrane Press products for D20 use, especially The Excellent Prismatic Spray magazine (notably issues 2, 3, and 4/5) and Cugel's Saga.  I haven't yet myself seen the finished product of Turjan's Tome or Demon Realms (though elements of both were included in the Primer)

All those tomes have great flavor text (Cugel's Compendium is a gem for anyone interested in the Rogue class) and The Excellent Prismatic spray has these wonderful little "Cozerners Expedients" which make great adventure seeds.  I used two of them in my own fairly traditional D20 campaign last year with great success.

6 As for implementation, we did include that spell failure and success system.  I was going to do rules for enhanced persuasion / rebuff etc., based on the personality archetype system in DERPG, but Pelgrane wanted keep that card in their deck, maybe for a followup.  However, there are several spells which enhance the ability to coerce, lie, confuse, misdirect, and in other ways mentally befuddle, control, or rebuff friends and enemies alike.  I think in all there are at least 8 spells of this type in the Primer.  I also included personality archetype spell feats.

The spell failure / success system relies on Spellcraft checks.  (If one prefers, one could substitute concentration, but I liked the idea of actual arcane knowledge being necessary.)  I imagined that Cugel could concentrate and focus his attention if necessary, but faltered at the level of intellectual virtuosity and precision required to actually cast such powerful spells as the forlorn encystment.  Every spell has a potential "Dismal Failure" (backfire) result ranging from inconvenient to life threatening, (which are again optional), as well as the potential for "Illustrious Success", which is usually a minor enhancement on the level of some Metamagic feats.  Advanced consideration of the potential consequences of casting a spell are reccomended for the tyro!  The more academically "complete" spells may not be as efficacious, but are far less dangerous to cast.

The Vat Creature system is quite functional but of intentionally of byzantine complexity.  DM's can feel free to eliminate a step or die roll or two from the process, and / or tinker with the costs, to make it more practical, especially for the less powerful magician.  It was made complex, expensive and difficult because it is considered in the world of the Dying Earth RPG to be the penultimate measure of a magicians skill.

As the Primer points out, it is far cheaper to aquire servants in the ordinary way, but then of course, one cannot tinker with their basic design features.

For example, a Kobold could be made for 1080 gp, (including a 500 gp aquamarine) and the cost of 240 experience points, with three skill rolls (Sculpting DC 14, Craft Wondrous Item DC 24, Craft Alchemy DC 25) and the casting of the spells Simulacrum, Prying eyes, Transmute Rock to mud, Stone to Flesh, and Polymorph any object.  And even then it's still not certain how it's animation will go or what it's personality will turn out to be.  

On the other hand, for the cost of an extra 1,000 Gp, 50 more xp and slightly higher skill checks, you could add wings to your kobold to considerably enhance it's usefuleness as a scout and a soldier.  As the primer points out, Kobolds eat literally anything organic, thrive in a wide range of environmental conditions, and breed prodigously.  If you created two winged Kobolds, in no time you could have an army of creatures similar to the flying monkeys from the Wizard of Oz. 

There is also a Vat Creature Feat which makes success far more likely and is basically necessary to ensure successful vat creature manufacture.

I included a fair amount of background flavor text describing the Dying Earth milieux, and pointing out many of the same things you did in this thread about alignment, classes, races, and etc.  I didn't ban anything though, (other than simply pointing out that Paladins didn't fit in well at all!)  I just pointed out what fit and what didn't, generally.  I also didn't ban alignment, I just pointed out there were a lot more neutrals (the law of equivalency is almost the prefect neutral's credo) some lawful (those various little villiages with strict laws and customs) more chaotic.  Finally, though neither sorcerers nor druids nor bards really fit in the dying Earth milieux, some of the spells, could be adapted for them in another campaign.  The various persuasion spells for example are a natural for Bards.

It's up to the DM and the players to decide just how they want to mix everything in.

Anyway, a few thoughts.  Please do not hesitate to ask me questions.  I may be able to even post some tidbits from the book to whet your appetite (or nauseate, depending on your personal tastes... application of Colinquace's Tonguesheath is always a reccomended precaution)

J

P.S. Please forgive me in advance for my atrocious spelling, and be assured, Pelgranes editors are more than competent to fix it!


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## Olive (Mar 24, 2004)

Thanks for posting Bob!

The book does sound really cool. I'll have to keep an eye out for it at my FLGS. I think you should get the publisher to send review copies about the place. The places I most often read reviews are here on ENWorld and when Erik Mona does a write up in _Polyhedron_. I tend not to buy stuff from publisher's I don't know until I've read reviews.

So, has anyone actually bought a copy yet?


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## redkobold (Mar 24, 2004)

Thanks for joining in Bob!

Tell us/me about the gazeteer type DERGP materials.  Are they mostly fluff (general setting) that would be universally applicable or more crunchy (mostly DERPG rules).

If more fluff, I will seriously think about ordering one.

Which would be the best to get first to just use as a campaign setting?
Anyone else who has these please chime in.

The Scaum Valley Gazetteer 

The Player's Guide to Kaiin

Ascolais and the Land of the Falling Wall (Available now)


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## redkobold (Mar 24, 2004)

Thanks for joining in Bob!

Tell us/me about the gazeteer type DERGP materials.  Are they mostly fluff (general setting) that would be universally applicable or more crunchy (mostly DERPG rules).

If more fluff, I will seriously think about ordering one.

Which would be the best to get first to just use as a campaign setting?
Anyone else who has these please chime in.

The Scaum Valley Gazetteer 

The Player's Guide to Kaiin

Ascolais and the Land of the Falling Wall


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## Drifter Bob (Mar 24, 2004)

*The Primer*



			
				Olive said:
			
		

> Thanks for posting Bob!
> 
> The book does sound really cool. I'll have to keep an eye out for it at my FLGS. I think you should get the publisher to send review copies about the place. The places I most often read reviews are here on ENWorld and when Erik Mona does a write up in _Polyhedron_. I tend not to buy stuff from publisher's I don't know until I've read reviews.
> 
> So, has anyone actually bought a copy yet?




We sent out two review copies like a week ago, but haven't heard back from the reviewers yet.  I hope thats not bad news!  I was actually googling for reviews or even just brief first impressions or other reactions when I found this thread.  I haven't heard anything yet except from friends, who all love it but they all like Jack Vance a lot.  My girlfriend likes it!  I think it's cool as hell myself.  But we are biased.  Is there a regular reviewer here on EN who you think gets the whole Vance thing?  My greatest fear is that someone who hates Jack Vance (or thinks only THEY know how to write in the genre) will write a bad review for that reason.  Some people on some other forums I visted were kind of hostile about that.  Complaining that it reminds them of EGG's writing, that sort of thing.

Another thing I can say is that the focus is low to mid-level, so people who play those 38th level god-characters may not like it as much.

If there is any specific kind of thing people would like to see an example of I could post a few pieces, as I suggested before.

DB


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## Olive (Mar 24, 2004)

Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> We sent out two review copies like a week ago, but haven't heard back from the reviewers yet.  I hope thats not bad news!  I was actually googling for reviews or even just brief first impressions or other reactions when I found this thread.  I haven't heard anything yet except from friends, who all love it but they all like Jack Vance a lot.  My girlfriend likes it!  I think it's cool as hell myself.  But we are biased.  Is there a regular reviewer here on EN who you think gets the whole Vance thing?  My greatest fear is that someone who hates Jack Vance (or thinks only THEY know how to write in the genre) will write a bad review for that reason.  Some people on some other forums I visted were kind of hostile about that.  Complaining that it reminds them of EGG's writing, that sort of thing.




Hey, I hate Vance's writing (and EEG's) but like alot of the ideas and love the idea of wierd wizards. Mostly I'm concerned (no offence!) about the mechanics of it, so that's what I'll be looking for in a review. I don't want a book that will give me ideas that I then have to work through myself. I want a book with cool ideas (like yours certainly will have) and the mechanics for me to bring it into play.

The staff reviewers here at ENWorld are pretty open-minded and even handed in my experience, so I think either Psion of JoeGKushner would be great people to have a look at it for you. I have no idea what those two think of the whole Vancian thing, but you could always ask them i guess?

In terms of a preview, that's another thing that goes a long way to making me interested in a book! I guess a smatering of the spells (say three or four) and the magic items (one or two?) would be fantastic! Just to get an idea of how the design philosophy behind the book works.


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## Drifter Bob (Mar 24, 2004)

*DERPG Gazetters*



			
				lyonstudio said:
			
		

> Thanks for joining in Bob!
> 
> Tell us/me about the gazeteer type DERGP materials.  Are they mostly fluff (general setting) that would be universally applicable or more crunchy (mostly DERPG rules).
> 
> ...




The thing about the DERPG stuff, as you probably know, is that it's quite rules-lite.  The same goes for all their suppliments, they do not mess about constantly with crunchy bits, (thats what I get to do later when I'm converting things to D20) they concentrate more on characters, plots, mood, and humor.  Oh, and recipes.  They really like recipes... and food.  And drinks.  And funny hats.

That makes it adaptable pretty readily.  As for the three you mentioned, I don't have Acolais and the Land of the Falling Wall yet, but I have Kaiin and Scaum valley.  Both are very richly detailed, full of NPC's and sub plots and adventure hooks.  It would boil down to whether you want a city, or a swath of countryside.  I personally found Scaum valley a bit darker and Kaiin a bit more humorous.  As I said before I also highly reccomend the XPS issues, because they have such a variety of material in there, most of it again, readily adaptable to any other rules system.  There aren't a lot of charts or numbers to get in the way.

DB


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## Drifter Bob (Mar 25, 2004)

*Primer Excerptus*



			
				Olive said:
			
		

> In terms of a preview, that's another thing that goes a long way to making me interested in a book! I guess a smatering of the spells (say three or four) and the magic items (one or two?) would be fantastic! Just to get an idea of how the design philosophy behind the book works.




Ok, here is a link to a word doc with a smattering of items, Some cantrips, a few spells, a few magic items.  Please be kind!  Also keep in mind, this is from before the final edits, so there were some changes.  I know they took the rulebook page references out, there were some mods for 3.5, and etc.

It's also hard to get a general sampling, as all the spells and items are so different.  And don't forget the spell failure / success rules are optional.

http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/e/deodand23/Primer-Sample.doc

J


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## Olive (Mar 25, 2004)

Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> Ok, here is a link to a word doc with a smattering of items, Some cantrips, a few spells, a few magic items.  Please be kind!  Also keep in mind, this is from before the final edits, so there were some changes.  I know they took the rulebook page references out, there were some mods for 3.5, and etc.




Oooh, thanks for that! The spells are cool. What sort of levels of the spells cover? It's nice to see spells and magic itmes given a back story etc. I also really like Baron Kalofoi’s Jewels.

A question: does the final book have pre-reqs for the magic items? or just the market price?


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## Drifter Bob (Mar 25, 2004)

*Primer*



			
				Olive said:
			
		

> Oooh, thanks for that! The spells are cool. What sort of levels of the spells cover? It's nice to see spells and magic itmes given a back story etc. I also really like Baron Kalofoi’s Jewels.
> 
> A question: does the final book have pre-reqs for the magic items? or just the market price?




A quick count shows the spell breakdown as follows: 

cantrips: 34
Level 1  16 
Level 2  17 
Level 3  19 
Level 4  23
Level 5  13
Level 6  9
Level 7  4  
LEvel 8  2
Level 9  3 

So the concentration is in the middle, around 3-5th level.  There are also many spells in the existing D20 repetoire which have D20 equivalents, some likely borrowed direct from Vance.  An example of the latter would be the _Charm of the Forlorn Encystment_, which is equivalent to the 9th level Arcane spell Imprisonment, or the _Seventh Set's Web of Hiding_, which is the equivalent of the 8th level Arcane spell *Screen*.  These are rarely used outside the Dying Earth milieux, IMHO, and fit well here.  Other spells such as _Clambard's Rein of Long Nerves_, (Dominate Person) _Felojun's First Hypnotic Spell _ (*Hold Person*) and _Phandaal's Mantle of Stealth _ (*Improved invisibility*) help flesh out the repetoire of Dying Earth spells for those wishing to conduct a campaign completely within the milieux.  A complete list of these spells is also included in the book (Appendix V)

As for the items, we make the assumption that they are generally of such rare vintage, that it is no longer possible to make most of the items in the book.  These are usually rare, often unique artifacts, and there aren't meant to be dozens of them for sale in every store front.  Other more mundane items such as Live boots, could be made, but they have their D20 equivalents (boots of striding and springing).  

However I would be willing to help provide some assitance to any mage seeking to redo the work of the ancients.... I have speculated along these lines myself...

J


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## Drifter Bob (Mar 25, 2004)

lyonstudio said:
			
		

> Thanks for joining in Bob!




I notice that you, like me, appear to reside in New Orleans.  I don't often run into Orleanians in cyberspace, if you don't mind my asking, do you live in the city proper or in one of the outlying parishes?

J


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## redkobold (Mar 25, 2004)

Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> I notice that you, like me, appear to reside in New Orleans.  I don't often run into Orleanians in cyberspace, if you don't mind my asking, do you live in the city proper or in one of the outlying parishes?
> 
> J




I was born here.  I lived uptown for a couple of years recently but with the birth of our two kids and good real estate prices uptown we sold and moved to Destrehan.

Where y'at?

Are you officially working on other d20 supplements for DERPG?


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## Belegbeth (Mar 25, 2004)

Drifter Bob,

I am *very* excited about your book.  I love Jack Vance, and look forward to giving my d20 game a special Vancian injection!

But out of curiousity: is there any plan at Pelgrane to make use of Vance's Lyonesse novels?  IMO, those books are actually superior to his Dying Earth novels -- at least in terms of coherence and "mystical feel."  They are also closer in spirit to RPGs.  A Lyonesse source book would be amazing.

Of course, I likely ask in vain, as Vance's Lyonesse novels have been sadly neglected over the years.


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## Drifter Bob (Mar 25, 2004)

*jewels*



			
				Olive said:
			
		

> I also really like Baron Kalofoi’s Jewels.




I used this item in my last campaign, and I was amazed by the myriad uses that the party put it to.  It turns out to be an extremely effective magic item!

DB


----------



## Drifter Bob (Mar 25, 2004)

*Lyonesse*



			
				Belegbeth said:
			
		

> Drifter Bob,
> 
> I am *very* excited about your book.  I love Jack Vance, and look forward to giving my d20 game a special Vancian injection!
> 
> ...




I do not know for sure, as I am only a lowly freelancer and have never actually visited Pelgrane HQ in England, but I believe they only own the rights to the Dying Earth stuff.  They do, however have a good relationship with Jack Vance and his family so who knows.  I like the Lyonesse novels as well, actually.  You might be able to mix the two systems somehow, there is already a considerable difference between the Turjan level material and the Cugel level stuff, the latter being darker and more "high fantasy", perhaps you could tailor some of the material to a Lyonesse campaign.  It's been a while since I read any of those books and I don't remember too many spells and monsters specific to the Lyonesse milieux... was there anything specific you were hoping to see?

DB


----------



## Gez (Mar 25, 2004)

If you can read French, there's a Swiss company that published an adaptation of Lyonesse. -->

Sadly, I think said company has gone bankrupt since...


----------



## Drifter Bob (Mar 25, 2004)

Gez said:
			
		

> If you can read French, there's a Swiss company that published an adaptation of Lyonesse. -->
> 
> Sadly, I think said company has gone bankrupt since...




Vance is very popular in France.. in general more so in Europe (Holland as well) than in the US.  Most of the DERPG material has been translated into French and I'm hoping they will make a French language version of the Primer as well, if only so my grandmother can read it!

J


----------



## Drifter Bob (Mar 25, 2004)

lyonstudio said:
			
		

> I was born here.  I lived uptown for a couple of years recently but with the birth of our two kids and good real estate prices uptown we sold and moved to Destrehan.
> 
> Where y'at?
> 
> Are you officially working on other d20 supplements for DERPG?




I live in Mid-City, where alas, the real estate prices remain low 

I am not working on anything for Pelgrane at the moment, right now I'm working on something for The Riddle of Steel.  I know Pelgrane has a database of a lot of other material though, for example, all the wonderful Dying Earth Monsters (gotta love that Deodand).  If the Primer does well they may ask me to work on one or more follow-up books.  Whether I actually do it or not will depend how much they want to pay me!

J


----------



## Maelstrom (Mar 25, 2004)

*review*

Hello all,

I'm currently reading the Primer of Practical Magic and hope to post a review this weekend here or on RPG.net.  I don't know Vance so I can't judge it from that aspect.  I will be reviewing it from how I and my players use and are, hopefully, inspired by the ideas within.

Eddy


----------



## Olive (Mar 26, 2004)

Could you confirm soem thing for me DB? This book as aimed at playing ance in a d20 campaign right? Hence the lack of pre-reqs for magic item crafting? And the preponderence of low level spells?

Also welcome to the boards Maelstrom, and I'd love to read your review!


----------



## Drifter Bob (Mar 26, 2004)

Olive said:
			
		

> This book as aimed at playing ance in a d20 campaign right? Hence the lack of pre-reqs for magic item crafting? And the preponderence of low level spells?




I'm afraid I failed at my decifer attempt ... could you reiterate that please?

J


----------



## Olive (Mar 26, 2004)

Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> I'm afraid I failed at my decifer attempt ... could you reiterate that please?




Sorry. The sentence should have been: 
This book as aimed at playing a Vance-style game in a d20 system right? Hence the lack of pre-reqs for magic item crafting? And the preponderence of low level spells?

A further question is how did you work out the market prices for the items if you didn't do pre-reqs?


----------



## Drifter Bob (Mar 26, 2004)

*Primer rationalle*



			
				Olive said:
			
		

> Sorry. The sentence should have been:
> This book as aimed at playing a Vance-style game in a d20 system right? Hence the lack of pre-reqs for magic item crafting? And the preponderence of low level spells?
> 
> A further question is how did you work out the market prices for the items if you didn't do pre-reqs?




I think I understand better where you are coming from now.  

First off, the book is designed to be a resource for D20 players.  We tried to make it useful for people who just want a few new spells (and items) like from any other D20 sourcebook, and we also put some extra flavor material in there so that people who wanted to try to run a Dying Earth type of campaign, or just move their D20 campiagn a bit in that direction, could try to do so.  

For example, just like people did in this thread, we did discuss the role of alignment, various classes and races and etc. in the dying earth.  Another thing we touched upon was the different attitude toward magic.  Magic spells and artifacts are the most sought after commodities in the dying earth.  Magic is frequent, but not commonplace.  It is not mundane, nor are spellcasters a dime a dozen.

That said, this is not an all -encompasing Dying Earth sourcebook for D20.  There are no monsters, no campaign background, no maps or cities or NPC's in there.  Just spells, magic items, prestige classes, feats, and a few other useful tables and special rules.

The basic philosophy we took toward magic though hearkens back to early D&D.  The idea of mages scouring through old libraries, and searching all over the countryside for elusive manuscripts, was originally part of D&D.  Now the atitude is different, every spell in existance is available in the Players Handbook and in most campaigns, at least 2 per level can be selected automatically by the spellcaster.  We wanted to make spells more mysterious again.  In the Primer, I suggested that when making these Dying Earth spells available in a "normal" D20 campaign, it might be a good idea to make them special in some way, from another plane or a far gone era.  This way they are truly special and mysterious.  

I also suggested that if you use the spells as ranger or druid or bard spells, say, that they not be available in some general repetoire that any caster can choose from, but instead must be taught or learned in some special way.

Of course that is just a suggestion, you can use the manual any way you want to.  It's just within the context of the "flavor" of the Dying Earth to make magic rare and enigmatic.

Similarly, with the magic items, we did not want them to be mundane.  If you are running a Dying Earth milieux, the items within that context are not being made any more... generally speaking, they all come from the distant past (like the vast majority of the spells).  In a 'normal' D20 campaign with just a few of these elements added in, we reccomended making these items again come from another plane, or some remote period in antiquity.  It was just the approach Pelgrane wanted to take and I agreed.  It just didn't seem right for any average magician to be cranking out Baron Kalofi's jewels or the Schiavona of Kavic at will.

I guess, in this sense you could consider them not regular magic items at all but very minor artifacts like in the 1E DMG.

Naturally, as with the spells, that can be changed at the whim of the user, we just didn't provide the prerequisites.  Feel free to do so if you want to!



As for the spells being low level, that was just how I interpreted them.  Those are the spells from the Dying Earth stories and novels, which as you know, are mostly not very high level.  There are not a lot of meteor swarms or the like being bandied about in most Dying Earth stories, most of the spells are hold and charm type spells, illusions, summoning spells, spells to bind and entrap, to manipulate people, to investigate mysteries or to foil investigation.  There are a few truly deadly high level combat spells such as the Excellent Prismatic Spray, the Forlorn encystment, Phandaals Gyrator and etc., and these seem to suffice for the purposes of powerful wizards.

Most of the spells fall really in the middle range, 4th level or so, which matches the level of spells found in the Cugel and Turjan of Miur level stories (the first two levels of play as established in the Dying Earth RPG) 

As another feature for mid -high level play you have the Diabolists, who have an impressive arsenal of abilities and spells for coping with and controlling demons and other outsiders, as well as acquiring very useful permanent outsider companions.

Finally, for very high-level (Rhialto the Marvelous) play,  Arch Magician prestige class, which relies more on these creatures called Sandestin, which are kind of like indentured Djinn, to work all their magic for them with Limited Wish and Wish spells (and other very powerful abilities)

Controlling the Sandestin requires excellent persuasion, bluff, and intimidate skills, as well as a superb lawyers attention to detail, (because they love nothing better than to accidentally-on-purpose misinterpret orders) but if you can get them to do your will, as the Great Arch Magicians can, you can literally move mountains.  

Hope that helps.

DB


----------



## Drifter Bob (Mar 26, 2004)

Olive said:
			
		

> A further question is how did you work out the market prices for the items if you didn't do pre-reqs?




I tried to estimate the value of the raw materials, if any, based on the tables of jewels and gems in the DMG, then I added the value of what seemed to be magic items of equivalent value from the DMG.  In some cases the prices were increased a bit further, this to reflect the rarity of these items in a D20 setting (each one in many cases being unique) and / or the elevated value of magic items in the Dying Earth, where even the most non-functional / unpractical magic artifact is appreciated and valued for it's intrinsic value, like a faberge egg.

DB


----------



## Belegbeth (Mar 26, 2004)

Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> You might be able to mix the two systems somehow, there is already a considerable difference between the Turjan level material and the Cugel level stuff, the latter being darker and more "high fantasy", perhaps you could tailor some of the material to a Lyonesse campaign.  It's been a while since I read any of those books and I don't remember too many spells and monsters specific to the Lyonesse milieux... was there anything specific you were hoping to see?
> DB




Well, since you asked, I would be thrilled to see a "campaign book" of some kind for Lyonesse (perhaps something for both d20 and the DERPG).  

It has always struck me that Lyonesse would make a great FRP setting -- it is closer to "high fantasy" than Vance's Dying Earth novels, but still has a distinctly sardonic 'Vancian' character to it.  

There are many great locations in Lyonesse.  The Ulflands, Tantrevalles Forest, and Ys would all be interesting places for players to visit.  Twittens Corner in the Tantrevalles Forest in particular would be great fun: an interesting "Faerie" and magic bazaar. 

There are also many interesting peoples in Lyonesse: Vance's version of Faeries, the changelings, the ancient militaristic Ska, the ancient people of Ys, and so forth.

The magic system in the novels, if I remember correctly, is quite similar to the one found in the Dying Earth books (sandestin magic, etc.).  But there are some interesting magic items that could be translated into game terms.

I guess a campaign book that described some of these things -- either for use in a Lyonesse campaign or as ideas that DMs could integrate into their own campaigns -- would be a great resource.  Though this is probably just wishful thinking, as I am not sure how much demand there is out there for such a product.


----------



## Olive (Mar 27, 2004)

Thanks Drifter Bob,

great insights! I have a much better idea what the book is about now.

Do the publishers ahve a proper distribution deal, or is mail order the way to go?


----------



## Drifter Bob (Mar 27, 2004)

*Primer avaialbility*



			
				Olive said:
			
		

> Thanks Drifter Bob,
> 
> great insights! I have a much better idea what the book is about now.
> 
> Do the publishers ahve a proper distribution deal, or is mail order the way to go?




Simon Rogers of Pelgrane sent me a list of like 20 distributors in the US, so I assume they do have a proper distribution deal.  (Marketing is another matter ) I'd say check your local store, if it's not there you should throw an hysterical tantrum and demand that they stock it!  Just kidding.  If it's not there you can always order direct from Pelgrane, or from amazon.com or any number of online mail order outfits.  

JR


----------



## Drifter Bob (Mar 27, 2004)

Belegbeth said:
			
		

> Well, since you asked, I would be thrilled to see a "campaign book" of some kind for Lyonesse (perhaps something for both d20 and the DERPG).




Yes, that would be lovely.  Lyonesse had such a languid feel to it.  Mr Vance definately captured something subtle there.  Those are familiar aspects of the Vance landscape, even in his science fiction books, there are these archetypal features, the gloomy forboding forests, the wild ancient glades, the ferocious barbarian cultures with their incomprehensible motivations...

Who knows though, there may yet be a market for some of this kind of stuff.  There are an increasing number of us DnD players from the old old days who every so often get a hankering for something a little more sophisticated or nuanced than say, the rpg equivalent of Xena (not that Xena can't be fun)  

That is certainly what Pelgrane is counting on.  There has been the revival of Call of Cthulhu in d20 (somewhat controversial I know), and I noticed that this new Conan game has come out as well, and seems to have been well recieved.  In fact maybe it's just my own tastes changing but there do seem to be a few new things like this on the horison.  If the Primer is successful Pelgrane could and probably will do campaign books for D20 on any number of Dying Earth themes, and perhaps Lyonesse could be the next logical step.  I would personally also love to see something done with Clarke Ashton Smiths Zothique, as well as Vance imitator Michael Shea, and maybe even Gene Wolfe, as well as more historical period based stuff in the manner of some of the better efforts of Avalanche Press, like their superb Celtic World suppliment.

Ah we can dream.  Then one also has to wonder if Mr Vance has anything else yet to write.  He is still alive, though getting on in years and having trouble with his vision.  I hope I haven't seen the last of what he has to offer....

J


----------



## Gez (Mar 27, 2004)

He's writing a scifi cycle now.


----------



## Drifter Bob (Mar 27, 2004)

Krieg said:
			
		

> I ordered a copy from FRPGames & will let you know what I think once it gets here.
> 
> Hopefully it lives up to it's potential.




Have you gotten your copy yet?  I'm very interested to hear your reaction.

DB


----------



## Krieg (Mar 27, 2004)

Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> Have you gotten your copy yet?  I'm very interested to hear your reaction.
> 
> DB




Not yet. I had it sent to work rather than the house...so of course when I checked the tracking number it was delivered today (Sat)! lol

I will have it in my hands on Monday. 

FWIW while I do like the Dying Earth books, I don't _love_ them (if you know what I mean). I'm not really looking for something to re-create the adventures of Cugel in D20, rather I am more interested in a product that tries to return to the 1E "mysterious" feel of magic. So while I am biased, my bias isn't going to be exactly the same as a Cugel fan boys'.


----------



## Drifter Bob (Mar 27, 2004)

Maelstrom said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> I'm currently reading the Primer of Practical Magic and hope to post a review this weekend here or on RPG.net.  I don't know Vance so I can't judge it from that aspect.  I will be reviewing it from how I and my players use and are, hopefully, inspired by the ideas within.
> 
> Eddy




Thanks Eddy, I can't wait to read the review.  Please remember to post a link on this forum if you do it on RPG.net.

DB


----------



## redkobold (Mar 29, 2004)

Belegbeth said:
			
		

> The magic system in the novels, if I remember correctly, is quite similar to the one found in the Dying Earth books (sandestin magic, etc.).  But there are some interesting magic items that could be translated into game terms.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Does the Primer cover Sandestin Magic in detail?  That is what I always loved in the Lyonesse novels.


----------



## Drifter Bob (Mar 30, 2004)

*Sandestin Magic*



			
				lyonstudio said:
			
		

> Does the Primer cover Sandestin Magic in detail?  That is what I always loved in the Lyonesse novels.




Yes it does, though I have already recieved complaints from friends of mine who are hard core DnD rules lawyer / min maxer types who have read the Primer.  Having never read the Dying Earth or Lyonaise novels, they demanded more details about the Sandestins (such as what they look like, which I mistakenly assumed was obviously variable by their ability to shape change at will and other various inherent illusory abilities) and the quest Arch Mages have to go on to get one (which is abstracted into an experience point cost and time out of the game).

There are however detailed rules on what the Sandestins can and will do, how to (attempt to) convince them to do it, how indenture points work, and etc.  Sandestins are only available to the Arch Mage prestige class.

We are probably going to do a web page with additional information for those who demand more.  A lot of D20 people don't get the way Jack Vance insinuates so much and leaves so much to the imagination, and they want to know every detail of everything that is hinted at.  I'm apparently going to be forced to go into a huge flavor piece about the 19th Aeon, for example.  Lol 

DB


----------



## Olive (Mar 30, 2004)

Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> A lot of D20 people don't get the way Jack Vance insinuates so much and leaves so much to the imagination, and they want to know every detail of everything that is hinted at.




There is a difference between don't get and don't like.


----------



## Drifter Bob (Mar 30, 2004)

Olive said:
			
		

> There is a difference between don't get and don't like.




I have found that it starts out a mix, and ends up more and more of the former.  At first, when you read the Dying Earth, you feel a bit cheated.  What exactly IS a deodand?  Why is the sun blinking out?  Who was the great Phandaal?  What did he mean by that cynical sounding reference to the "laws of equivalency" when they were making that deal?  After a while though, it grows on you.  I rmember explaining scenes in Jack Vance to people at great length, and realising when I went to look it up to refresh my memory, that I had filled in all kinds of detail tha wasn't there.  That, I finally realised, is what makes Vance so unique as an author (and so eminently suited for RPG's, IMHO) he stimulates your imagination in such a wonderful way, with all those new ways of using words, and all those made up terms and / or obscure ones you have to crack the dictionary to understand....  you bring an enormous amount into it.  That is what I hope the Primer will do as well (though it does have plenty of crunchy detail!!!)

J


----------



## Belegbeth (Mar 31, 2004)

Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> Lyonesse had such a languid feel to it.  Mr Vance definately captured something subtle there.   ...
> 
> Who knows though, there may yet be a market for some of this kind of stuff.   ...
> 
> ...




I just picked up SS's "Excalibur" sourcebook.  It looks like it has some very interesting ideas for running a campaign with a strong "Arthurian" feel.

Maybe once I get my hands on the Primer (my FLGS still does not have it; I might have to resort to an online purchase), I might be able to cobble together something for a Lyonesse campaign -- or, more likely, a campaign with a strong "Lyonesse feel."

Noble knights, legendary magic, flighty Faerie, and Sandestin Magic.  It might work...


----------



## Drifter Bob (Apr 2, 2004)

*Primer review*

The first review is out...

http://www.gamewyrd.com/review/434

Not bad overall, if not as nice as I would have been!

DB


----------



## Drifter Bob (Apr 2, 2004)

Belegbeth said:
			
		

> I just picked up SS's "Excalibur" sourcebook.  It looks like it has some very interesting ideas for running a campaign with a strong "Arthurian" feel.




I hope people don't get mad at me for saying this, but though for a long time a big fan of both Monty Python's Holy Grail and the Excalibur movie of early 1980s vintage (at that time, one of a precious few fantasy themed movies of any remote quality ever made) I lost interest in the Camelot tales after reading that they were almost entirely invented from the 12th century (or therabouts) onward by nobles attempting to create Monarchist propaganda. 

It just never seemed as cool after that, and all the wierd inconsistencies that I used to assume just didn't make sense due to my ignorance, suddenly seemed self serving...

I did like Avalance Press's take on it, an interesting spin where Arthur is the villain and mordred the hero.



> Maybe once I get my hands on the Primer (my FLGS still does not have it; I might have to resort to an online purchase), I might be able to cobble together something for a Lyonesse campaign -- or, more likely, a campaign with a strong "Lyonesse feel."
> 
> Noble knights, legendary magic, flighty Faerie, and Sandestin Magic.  It might work...




That would be really, really nice.  A great world to adventure in.  I wonder what the legal status of the Lyoneaise stuff is?  I think I'll pose a question to Simon at Pelgrane.

DB


----------



## Olive (Apr 2, 2004)

Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> Not bad overall, if not as nice as I would have been!




Thanks for the link. I reckon that this reviewer is coming at the whole thing in a similar way to me. And it sounds good enough for me to be interested in! I'll ask the FLGS to order a copy for me...


----------



## redkobold (Apr 2, 2004)

Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> The first review is out...
> 
> http://www.gamewyrd.com/review/434
> 
> ...




It has not diminished my interest.  I just placed my order and now eagerly await its delivery!


----------



## Drifter Bob (Apr 2, 2004)

I'm glad to hear that, please let me know what you think of it.  

I know there is at least one other review coming out on rpg.net which is more negative, it should be out soon.  I'm very nervous about that!  You never know what somebody is going to think.  

Wasn't there somebody else on this thread who had ordered the book?  Any feedback?

DB


----------



## Drifter Bob (Apr 2, 2004)

*Krieg's Primer*



			
				Krieg said:
			
		

> Not yet. I had it sent to work rather than the house...so of course when I checked the tracking number it was delivered today (Sat)! lol
> 
> I will have it in my hands on Monday.




Krieg, have you had a chance to look at the book yet?  Did you like it or hate it?

DB


----------



## Olive (Apr 3, 2004)

Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> I know there is at least one other review coming out on rpg.net which is more negative, it should be out soon.  I'm very nervous about that!  You never know what somebody is going to think.




I wouldn't worry too much: it's one of those things that happens, and no one ever likes everything! Take the over all feedback as a guide, not the occasional bad review.


----------



## Drifter Bob (Apr 4, 2004)

*Reviews and fear*



			
				Olive said:
			
		

> I wouldn't worry too much: it's one of those things that happens, and no one ever likes everything! Take the over all feedback as a guide, not the occasional bad review.




Thanks for the words of encouragement... I need 'em!

Here is the much more negative review from RPG.net

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/10/10216.phtml

JR


----------



## Krieg (Apr 4, 2004)

Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> Krieg, have you had a chance to look at the book yet?  Did you like it or hate it?
> 
> DB




I only had a chance to look at it briefly as I am in the middle of moving (in fact if you asked me where exactly my copy was right now I couldn't tell you...lol).

The short of it is that I liked it a lot. From a flavor stand point it was great. The spell failure rules are a major case of "why didn't I think of that!", and the vat creature mechanics are going to replace the current rules for acquiring familiars in my games ASAP.

On the negative side from my cursory look I think there may be balance issues with some of the spells & feats, but I'll have to have some time to study them more in-depth to be absolutely certain.

Oh yeah, count me among the "more info on the Sandistans would have been nice!" group. 

All in all it was a great book to steal ideas from. It wasn't perfect but was definitely worth buying (BTW the lack of editing errors was a pleasant surprise as well!!).

Whenever I get settled in & I'll take a longer look at it & give you my impressions.


----------



## Drifter Bob (Apr 5, 2004)

*Primer mini- EN review*



			
				Krieg said:
			
		

> (snip)
> All in all it was a great book to steal ideas from. It wasn't perfect but was definitely worth buying (BTW the lack of editing errors was a pleasant surprise as well!!).
> 
> Whenever I get settled in & I'll take a longer look at it & give you my impressions.




Hey thanks a lot Krieg!  I really appreciate your taking the time to have a look over of the book and post your initial reaction here.  I know what a drag moving is, they say it's one of the 3 most stressfull things in life, next to a close relative dying.  I hate it!  I'm glad I haven't had to in 5 years (knock on wood)

Keep in mind I'll be available on this here list to answer any specific questions you might have on any particular balance issues or anything else you might want to know about the Primer or the Dying Earth world, and we'll soon be posting a web page to support it with eratta and some extra information (like on the Sandestins) on the Dying Earth Role Playing Game wesbsite, hopefully within the week.  

Anything you have a question about I'll will be glad to put up there, plus we'll be making a few extra goodies available as well.

Jr


----------



## redkobold (Apr 8, 2004)

I got my copy yesterday and skimmed through it.  

I like it a lot and for me it gets high marks.  

Off of the top of my head, here are my thoughts:

First the cons:

I did not care for the cover and the title together.  It looks like something from an occult shop.  I would have rather had a painted cover like other DERPG products.

The graphic design and layout left a bit to be desired.  Primarily I am talking about the text boxes like page 30 and 51.

For the price, I was a little surprised that it was not bigger or hard bound.  No biggie however because the content is great.


Now the pros:
The artwork was good.  I especially liked Ralph Horsley's illustrations.  I also like the ink line "comic book" type illustrations but felt they did not go as well with the grayscale illustrations.  That is a minor thing however.

Who did the illustrations on 119 and 124.  Those are my favorite.

The spells and magic items are great!  Some may be a bit overpowered but that is fine.  I will be digging into these more deeply soon.  They have inspired me to have a more magic infused campaign.

A question on one spell: Call to the Ominous Enthusiast.  Duration is 1 minute per level.  That seems like an extremely short time to have the demon do anything productive.  Should that perhaps be an hour?

I really liked the spell failure.  I wish however that Appendix V (d20 spell equivalents) would have been included with the spell descriptions and/or  given the description for the Dismal Failures and Illustrious Success.
That would be a great web enhancement.  Hint Hint!

I like the vat creature concept.  A review said that the mechanics do not work well but that can be tweaked.  A good basis is provided to develop.

I agree with Krieg about more info on Sandestins.  Some adventure hooks and ideas on where to find them, trap them, etc.  Web Enhancement also?

As a final recap:
Artwork 8 to 10
Layout 8
Content 10
Originality 10
Inspirational 10
Size to Cost Value 7

One question, what is a tyro?  Novice, initiate?  Is that a made up Vancian word?

I also had a thought if someone wanted to have a Vancian flavored game.  Some expressed doubt that players would use the more fanciful spell names.  Use the spell check and give the player a -2 if he uses the common name, even if accidentally like "I cast my web, er uh, Grannagin's Sticky Entanglement".  Hit em with the -2 or if you prefer the carrot to the stick approach perhaps give them a +2 if they use the proper name.  Players will learn quickly because they love any advantage they can get.


----------



## mmadsen (Apr 8, 2004)

lyonstudio said:
			
		

> One question, what is a tyro?  Novice, initiate?  Is that a made up Vancian word?



From Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: ty·ro
Pronunciation: 'tI-(")rO
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural tyros
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Medieval Latin, from Latin tiro young soldier, tyro
: a beginner in learning : NOVICE
synonym see AMATEUR


----------



## Drifter Bob (Apr 9, 2004)

lyonstudio said:
			
		

> I did not care for the cover and the title together.  It looks like something from an occult shop.  I would have rather had a painted cover like other DERPG products.




I didn't like the title much at first either, I was hoping for something really cool like the cover for Cugel's Compendium.  My girlfriend liked it though and over time it kind of grew on me.  I know what you mean about the occult shop look though, that threw me off a little at first too. 



> Who did the illustrations on 119 and 124.  Those are my favorite.




I don't know but I'll ask Simon at Pelgrane and get back to you



> A question on one spell: Call to the Ominous Enthusiast.  Duration is 1 minute per level.  That seems like an extremely short time to have the demon do anything productive.  Should that perhaps be an hour?




Maybe you are right.  I would say, it would depend on the nature of the task, how specialised it was, up to the DM's discretion.  To remove a trap on a chest, one minute per level.  To carve a statue or bake a perfect souflee, one hour per level.  To build a brick wall or a small bridge, one day per level.  I'll add this to the errata doc we're doing.



> I really liked the spell failure.  I wish however that Appendix V (d20 spell equivalents) would have been included with the spell descriptions and/or  given the description for the Dismal Failures and Illustrious Success.
> That would be a great web enhancement.  Hint Hint!




We'll put it in there. If Anybody has any specific suggestions for dismal failures or illustrious successes, I'd be glad to take them under consideration and list the name of whoever came up with the idea if we use them...



> I like the vat creature concept.  A review said that the mechanics do not work well but that can be tweaked.  A good basis is provided to develop.
> 
> I agree with Krieg about more info on Sandestins.  Some adventure hooks and ideas on where to find them, trap them, etc.  Web Enhancement also?




Those issues are addressed in the eratta which should be out this weekend.



> As a final recap:
> Artwork 8 to 10
> Layout 8
> Content 10
> ...




Thanks a lot lyonstudio.  If you are ever in my neigborhood (mid- city) drop me a line and we can get together for a beer or something and I'll sign your book for you.  I only wish your review was on RPG.net with those others!

I'll take all your advice and try to address everything in the errata doc.  It's so nice to hear some positive feedback!  I've mostly been getting assaulted in the none too friendly environs of usenet...

DB


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## redkobold (Apr 15, 2004)

Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> I'll take all your advice and try to address everything in the errata doc.  It's so nice to hear some positive feedback!  I've mostly been getting assaulted in the none too friendly environs of usenet...
> 
> DB




Gamers, especially those online do tend to get snippy.  I guess those who take the time to write a review online have strong opinions.  I really liked the new Gamma World by Bruce Baugh but obviously many folks (or perhaps a vocal minority) ripped it to shreds.  I know (from his online comments) that it bugged Bruce.  I guess you need a thick skin.  I have written a few articles and a lot of time and love goes into the work.  It is rough to have someone thrash it.  I tend to look at products with an eye for good stuff I will use rather than focusing solely on the parts I dislike.  If it has good illustrations to inspire me and a majority of good thoughful and useful content I am happy.

If I only focused on things I dislike, I could thrash the core D&D products easily for things like how heavy armor makes you harder to hit, how the monster manual gives next to no flavor for creatures other than their combat tactics, and so forth.

I would like to get together some time.  I am helping out with a local miniature wargaming con in June (website, t-shirt design, and sculpting a commemorative miniature).  Come check it out.  Here is the site:

www.BayouWars.org


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## redkobold (Apr 20, 2004)

lyonstudio said:
			
		

> I also had a thought if someone wanted to have a Vancian flavored game.  Some expressed doubt that players would use the more fanciful spell names.  Use the spell check and give the player a -2 if he uses the common name, even if accidentally like "I cast my web, er uh, Grannagin's Sticky Entanglement".  Hit em with the -2 or if you prefer the carrot to the stick approach perhaps give them a +2 if they use the proper name.  Players will learn quickly because they love any advantage they can get.




Sorry for quoting myself, maybe we can start a new topic.

Along the lines of having a high magic Vancian type game...

All characters can learn and cast cantrips.  They can know an amount equal to their level + Int modifier.  They can cast a number of cantrips daily equal to 1/2 their level + int modifier.

The Use Magic Device is not a "trained only" skill.

Anyone else have some good ideas for rules for a Vance flavored campaign?


Also, it would be fun to go through the whole SRD spell list for Wizards and come up with more flavorful names.  How about it?


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## mmadsen (Apr 20, 2004)

lyonstudio said:
			
		

> All characters can learn and cast cantrips.  They can know an amount equal to their level + Int modifier.  They can cast a number of cantrips daily equal to 1/2 their level + int modifier.



Or allow a non-spellcaster to cast (as a 0-level spellcaster) from a spellbook as if it were a scroll.


			
				lyonstudio said:
			
		

> The Use Magic Device is not a "trained only" skill.



Naturally.


			
				lyonstudio said:
			
		

> Also, it would be fun to go through the whole SRD spell list for Wizards and come up with more flavorful names.  How about it?



Good idea -- although that might be good enough for its own thread.


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## Drifter Bob (Apr 23, 2004)

We are going to have a contest along these lines.  People can submit Dying Earth names for D20 spells and their ideas for Dismal Failure and Illustrious Success results.  The winners will recieve outstanding prizes!  

The Codicilliary (web enhancement) documents are now all but complete.  There are several new magic items, greatly expanded sections on Vat creatures and Sandestins, and a complete 21 page mini-adventure for low level characters.

If this is all well recieved, more might be on the way....

I'll be posting links to the web enhancement or PDF (I'm not sure which it's going to be at this point) as soon as they are up, possibly as soon as this weekend.

DB


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## Maelstrom (Apr 27, 2004)

I reviewed the Primer of Practical Magic at Gaming Report and at RPGnet.

I couldn't find my 1st ed AD&D Player's Handbook but I did find the Greyhawk Adventures from 1988.  It has a listing of named spells by that campaign's famous magicians and quite a few have floral Dying Earth style titles like Bigby's Dextrous Digits, Drawmij's Marvelous Shield, Mordenkainen's Faithful Phantom Shield Maidens, Nystul's Enveloping Darkness, Otiluke's Orb of Containment, Rary's Apptitude Appropriator and Tenser's Fortunes of War.

Some ideas:
Alocrel's Comprehensive Understanding of Linguistics = Comprehend Languages
The Holdfast Guardian = Arcane Lock
Hyapatia's Hypnotic Dance = Hypnotic Pattern
Haadral's Runic Ward of Searing = Explosive runes
Fell Servitor of the First Calling = Summon Monster I (2d Calling = II and so on)
The Berzerk Madness of the Bear = Rage
Phandaal's Scenic Phantasm = Hallucinatory Terrain
Phandaal's Phantasmal Force (ok, I just had to get it out of my system!)
The Crimson Bands of Cytorrak = Hold person (ok, I stole that from Marvel)
The Obfuscatory Mists of Xagyg the Mad = Mind Fog (I am having way too much fun reminiscing here)

  If I find a thesaurus you guys are in trouble!

I almost forgot!  Otto's Gong of Isolation from the Greyhawk Adventures book.


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## RangerWickett (Apr 27, 2004)

*makes mental note to read this entire thread and see how Elements of Magic could help*

*grin*  I've always been a fan of Talislanta, which had Jack Vance-esque magic.  Heck, the Tal magic system helped inspire EOM-Revised.  Hmmm.


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## Drifter Bob (May 10, 2004)

Krieg said:
			
		

> I only had a chance to look at it briefly as I am in the middle of moving (in fact if you asked me where exactly my copy was right now I couldn't tell you...lol).
> 
> The short of it is that I liked it a lot. From a flavor stand point it was great. The spell failure rules are a major case of "why didn't I think of that!", and the vat creature mechanics are going to replace the current rules for acquiring familiars in my games ASAP.
> 
> ...





Krieg, did you ever have a chance to look over the book in more detail?  I'd like to hear from anybody who has read it by now, what your likes and dislikes were.  

The web enhancement (including a lot more about vat creatures and sandestins) is finished now and should be avalailable online as a pdf this week.  As y'all probably know there is also a contest going on for naming spells, and we also finished a mini-adventure which will also be available for download this week.

JR


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## Ikdyby hobily (May 12, 2004)

From the description on Amazon, it seems like they're 136 interesting pages





			
				Voadam said:
			
		

> It looks very cool but $30.00 for 136 pages is pretty steep.
> 
> Here is the description from Amazon:
> 
> ...


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## Psion (May 12, 2004)

Voadam said:
			
		

> Growing henchman in vats is a pretty tempting reason to get it.




They have that? Cool! I wish the guy at Pelgrane I was talking to would have spelled that out. That's probably one of my favorite aspects of Dying Earth. And the main reason I love Mongoose's EA: Constructs.

_Please arrive... please arrive..._

FWIW, I have always thought the exotic wizards in Sepulchrave's story hour had a bit of Vancian feel to them.

For those who have not read Vance out there, there's a lot more to Vance than "you forget spells when you cast them." Dying Earth was an imaginative peice (er, collection) of fantasy fiction. I mean what other setting has demons harvesting magic gems (to be precise, IOUN stones, there origin was DE) from stars being swallowed up in oblivion?


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## Psion (May 12, 2004)

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> More things to do:
> - Heavily encourage use of the Rogue class.  In fact, pretty much everyone should be a rogue, unless they're a wizard. And even if they're a wizard they're probably a rogue.




Hey, another use for the Gestalt rules! Everyone's a rogue.

Actually, I often think these little variant campaign ideas sound interesting, but usually dismiss them. That one sounds like a LOT of fun.


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## blackshirt5 (May 12, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> They have that? Cool! I wish the guy at Pelgrane I was talking to would have spelled that out. That's probably one of my favorite aspects of Dying Earth. And the main reason I love Mongoose's EA: Constructs.
> 
> _Please arrive... please arrive..._
> 
> ...



 Um, what's "seph"'s full username?  I wanna read that Story Hour.


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## Psion (May 12, 2004)

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> Um, what's "seph"'s full username?  I wanna read that Story Hour.




Whoops. Slight miskey/brain fart. I mean Sepulchrave II, esp. Lady Despina's virtue.

Of course, much of his setting is deeply entrenched and detailed European-flavored, with a church that strongly resembles the Catholic church and whatnot... I am specifically speaking of how he treats wizards as distinct, cloistered, and aloof, and often with bizarre, outlandish magical contraptions and unique spell research.


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## Olive (May 13, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> Whoops. Slight miskey/brain fart. I mean Sepulchrave II, esp. Lady Despina's virtue.
> 
> Of course, much of his setting is deeply entrenched and detailed European-flavored, with a church that strongly resembles the Catholic church and whatnot... I am specifically speaking of how he treats wizards as distinct, cloistered, and aloof, and often with bizarre, outlandish magical contraptions and unique spell research.




Sep has said several times that his wizard's are strongly influenced by Vance, and that the player of Mostin is a huge Vance nut, this isn't surprising.


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## Ikdyby hobily (May 13, 2004)

Thought I was the only one farting from my brain...








			
				Psion said:
			
		

> Whoops. Slight miskey/brain fart. I mean Sepulchrave II, esp. Lady Despina's virtue.


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## Drifter Bob (May 15, 2004)

*Primer Errata*

The Primer codicilliary document (eratta and bonus material) is up now, according to Simon at pelgrane press:

http://www.dyingearth.com/downloads/Codicillary.pdf

For some reason my browser is unable to get to the dying earth website right now so I can't verify this.  If somebody could tell me if it is showing up or not I'd appreciate it (as well as any feedback on the content, particulalry from those of you who had asked for specific things, we tried to answer every issue that was raised)

The maps for the mini adventure are being converted with mapping software, and it should be up shortly after that.

JR


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## Olive (May 16, 2004)

Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> For some reason my browser is unable to get to the dying earth website right now so I can't verify this.




I can't get there either...


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## Ikdyby hobily (May 17, 2004)

Will there be a sequel soon, and will it include spells from the contest that's going on now?


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## tleilaxu (May 17, 2004)

drifter bob- i hope that your endevour is successful, as i am a great fan of vance and can only conclude that the inclusion of vancian elements into DND can do naught but enhance the enjoyment of its benefactors. 

also, someone tell sepulchrave about this!

also also, i recommend to PELGRANE PRESS to send this shtuff into ENworld for consideration for ENNIES. i guarantee if this is nominated for an ENNIE or wins one your sales will multiply like sexually depraved rats


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## Drifter Bob (May 18, 2004)

OK you guys, please try this URL for now.  Those of you who asked for specific things especially, please hit me back with your impressions, likes and dislikes, etc.

http://www.pelgranepress.com/downloads/Codicillary.pdf

JR


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## Ikdyby hobily (May 19, 2004)

Perfect, thanks


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## Drifter Bob (May 23, 2004)

tleilaxu said:
			
		

> drifter bob- i hope that your endevour is successful, as i am a great fan of vance and can only conclude that the inclusion of vancian elements into DND can do naught but enhance the enjoyment of its benefactors.




Thanks a lot!  I hope you get a chance to check it out, I think we did the material justice, and I'd like to see this expand somewhat.  There is a lot more material which could be brought into D&D, ranging from concrete things like monsters and more magic items through some interesting rules variations and tons of campaign material.



> also, someone tell sepulchrave about this!
> 
> also also, i recommend to PELGRANE PRESS to send this shtuff into ENworld for consideration for ENNIES. i guarantee if this is nominated for an ENNIE or wins one your sales will multiply like sexually depraved rats




I arranged to send a copy of the Primer to Psion for review.  He should be recieving it soon.  Assuming he doesn't tear it apart with his teeth, mayb it will have some chance of being considered....  (with my luck though I'm sure they will annonuce EN worlds first ever book burning instead!)

JR


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 23, 2004)

New Orlenian by birth, army brat by upbringing (so don't ask where I lived)-current resident of TX.

I'm not a huge Jack Vance fan, but when I heard (years ago) about the "Vancian" influence on D&D, I got curious.  Finally, late last year, I tracked down a massive book that collected all of the "Dying Earth" novels.

It is worth the read for any D&D player.

And now I hear about THIS new product?  I'm going to have to track it down!

Thanks, at the very least, for the attempt at capturing that world in an RPG, Drifter Bob!


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## Drifter Bob (May 30, 2004)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> New Orlenian by birth, army brat by upbringing (so don't ask where I lived)-current resident of TX.
> 
> I'm not a huge Jack Vance fan, but when I heard (years ago) about the "Vancian" influence on D&D, I got curious.  Finally, late last year, I tracked down a massive book that collected all of the "Dying Earth" novels.
> 
> ...




Ah, mr Alcatraz, so good to hear from a native son!  You should enter the contest we are holding, come up with a handful of sepll names and you could win a free copy of the Primer....

you can read about it in this thread here:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=87069

Whenever you do get your hands on the book, I'd really like to hear your impressions of it.  How is life in Texas?  Good gaming group out there?

JR


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## Drifter Bob (Jun 12, 2004)

Has anyone else seen the primer yet?

would love to hear from adoring fans or embittered critics alike....

JR


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## Drifter Bob (Jun 19, 2004)

*Web Enhancement*

Anyone who has the primer should check out the Codicilliary doc

http://www.pelgranepress.com/downloads/Codicillary.pdf

The mini adventure "Wormwater" will be up Monday evening.  I'll post a link here....

DB


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## Omro Gamer (Jun 19, 2004)

Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> Has anyone else seen the primer yet?
> 
> would love to hear from adoring fans or embittered critics alike....
> 
> JR




I've got it. I'm quite impressed by it.


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## Drifter Bob (Jun 19, 2004)

Omro Gamer said:
			
		

> I've got it. I'm quite impressed by it.




Ah, do tell!  I don't suppose you care to expand on your impressions?  

DB


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## Starglim (Jun 20, 2004)

Passing over the cover image, which I found fairly pointless and generic, I was impressed by the contents of the _Primer of Practical Magic_ . The d20 rules design is nicely done, and the range of spells and items chosen to convert gives a strong sense of the Dying Earth as well as rich flavour for any campaign. May I say that I'm constantly impressed by the faithfulness and detail of the Dying Earth RPG in bringing Jack Vance's setting to life? The _Primer_ is a worthy addition to this body of work.

The Codicilliary is an important fix and expansion to two of the neatest and most flavourful parts of the _Primer_, vat creatures and Arch-Magicians, that raises this work from merely a good-quality spells and magic items book to a strong sourcebook leading into this remarkable setting. They're also two important topics for anyone campaigning in Jack Vance's Lyonesse, which is a setting that I'd really like to see.

edit: I had a chuckle at the requirement for the would-be Arch-Magician to _gate_ in to the plane of the chugs (Lawful Neutral) and then the plane of sandestins (Chaotic Neutral).


Any chance of a dual-stat release of _Ascolais and the Land of the Falling Wall_ ? The adventures and material in this sourcebook are well suited to the More Blood Less Drollery campaign model and thus to d20, and Ed Greenwood's article was an eye-opener for me to how the fickle and murderous folk of the Dying Earth could interact with other campaign worlds.


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## Drifter Bob (Jun 21, 2004)

Starglim said:
			
		

> Passing over the cover image, which I found fairly pointless and generic, I was impressed by the contents of the _Primer of Practical Magic_ . The d20 rules design is nicely done, and the range of spells and items chosen to convert gives a strong sense of the Dying Earth as well as rich flavour for any campaign. May I say that I'm constantly impressed by the faithfulness and detail of the Dying Earth RPG in bringing Jack Vance's setting to life? The _Primer_ is a worthy addition to this body of work.
> 
> The Codicilliary is an important fix and expansion to two of the neatest and most flavourful parts of the _Primer_, vat creatures and Arch-Magicians, that raises this work from merely a good-quality spells and magic items book to a strong sourcebook leading into this remarkable setting. They're also two important topics for anyone campaigning in Jack Vance's Lyonesse, which is a setting that I'd really like to see.
> 
> ...





Wow!  I wish you would write a review on Enworld or RPG.net!

DB


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## Drifter Bob (Jun 21, 2004)

Starglim,

Regarding the point you raised about the Gate spell.  You may be more conversant with the subtleties of Arcane magic than I, so bear with me.  I realise that casting the spell to summon a Lawful Neutral creature makes it in theory a Lawful Neutral spell, and using it to summon a Chaotic Neutral creature makes it a Chaotic Neutral spell, but is there any reason why, say, a (true) Neutral Wizard couldn't cast the spell both ways?  For that matter, can't an Evil cleric cast cure spells?  Perhaps you could elaborate on the nature of spellcasting and alignment for Wizards in particular.  If we have made an error with regard to this in the Codicilliary I'll be quick to correct it.

DB


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## Drifter Bob (Jun 21, 2004)

Starglim said:
			
		

> Any chance of a dual-stat release of _Ascolais and the Land of the Falling Wall_ ? The adventures and material in this sourcebook are well suited to the More Blood Less Drollery campaign model and thus to d20, and Ed Greenwood's article was an eye-opener for me to how the fickle and murderous folk of the Dying Earth could interact with other campaign worlds.




I have forwarded your query to the Arch-Publishers at Pelgrane Press.  I know they are working on some other projects which will have dual stats, though I am not directly involved in them so I can't give you any more details.  I think Ian Thompson, who wrote the Demon Realms DERPG suppliment, is working on something, but I believe a lot hinges on how well the Primer is ultimately recieved by the D20 community.

DB


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## Starglim (Jun 21, 2004)

Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> Starglim,
> 
> Regarding the point you raised about the Gate spell.  You may be more conversant with the subtleties of Arcane magic than I, so bear with me.  I realise that casting the spell to summon a Lawful Neutral creature makes it in theory a Lawful Neutral spell, and using it to summon a Chaotic Neutral creature makes it a Chaotic Neutral spell, but is there any reason why, say, a (true) Neutral Wizard couldn't cast the spell both ways?  For that matter, can't an Evil cleric cast cure spells?  Perhaps you could elaborate on the nature of spellcasting and alignment for Wizards in particular.  If we have made an error with regard to this in the Codicilliary I'll be quick to correct it.




(checks behind him for the person knowledgeable about the rules who might have spoken up earlier)
I certainly didn't mean to imply that you'd made any error, just that the alignments that were assigned to chugs and sandestins struck me as singularly appropriate.

I'll have a try at it. A _gate_ spell cast to summon a lawful outsider is a Lawful spell, and likewise for a chaotic outsider is a Chaotic spell, as you said.

A wizard is not restricted by his alignment in casting spells. A wizard of any alignment could summon both a lawful and a chaotic creature without penalty. There could be special effects of casting spells of certain descriptors, such as a lingering aura of law or chaos, and a wizard's alignment might well shift over time if he favours spells of a certain alignment, but the text under _gate_ regarding alignment is mostly for the benefit of clerics.

A cure spell doesn't have an alignment descriptor, so an evil cleric can cast it. For that matter, an _undead_ cleric can cast a cure spell, even though it would harm him if cast on himself. However, clerics (not wizards) can't cast spells with an actual alignment descriptor stated in the spell's stat block or description that is opposite to their own or to their deity's.


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## Drifter Bob (Jun 21, 2004)

*DnD rules*

Ah, all is as I suspected then, a temporary relief!  
When discussing rules technicalities I always get this feeling like Cugel waking up mornings on the Aventura, wondering why the worms are tired and the sea looks so familiar...  writing a D20 suppliment is something akin to playing DnD before a tv audience, with a party consisting of the worlds most insidious rules lawyers and min-maxers.  Nay, the best min-maxers from the Abyss and the worst rules lawyers from the nine hells!  You  have to check, double check, and check again every single possible detail or you are sunk.  It really helps you appreciate how complex DnD really is now!

DB


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## Drifter Bob (Jun 23, 2004)

Starglim said:
			
		

> Passing over the cover image, which I found fairly pointless and generic, I was impressed by the contents of the _Primer of Practical Magic_ . The d20 rules design is nicely done, and the range of spells and items chosen to convert gives a strong sense of the Dying Earth as well as rich flavour for any campaign. May I say that I'm constantly impressed by the faithfulness and detail of the Dying Earth RPG in bringing Jack Vance's setting to life? The _Primer_ is a worthy addition to this body of work.
> 
> The Codicilliary is an important fix and expansion to two of the neatest and most flavourful parts of the _Primer_, vat creatures and Arch-Magicians, that raises this work from merely a good-quality spells and magic items book to a strong sourcebook leading into this remarkable setting. They're also two important topics for anyone campaigning in Jack Vance's Lyonesse, which is a setting that I'd really like to see.
> 
> ...





Is there anything else you would like to see us do in terms of Web enhancement?


DB


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## Drifter Bob (Jun 25, 2004)

*There is a new review of the primer up*

There is a New review of the Primer up

http://www.AtFantasy.com/view/435


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## Ikdyby hobily (Jun 25, 2004)

Cool, let me check it out.


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## Drifter Bob (Jul 25, 2004)

*New Primer review, spell failure rule adjustment*

New review of the primer up, by ENworlds own Psion

http://www.enworld.org/reviews/index.php?sub=yes&where=active&reviewer=Psion&product=PtPM

In answer to a query he had about the spell failure system:

I agree with the suggestion that the DC for casting be 10 +(spell level x2). One problem we had with the Primer was that for whatever reason all the playtesting ended up being done at pretty low level, partially due to being caught in the middle of the 3.5 update.  So a couple of things like this did not become apparent until too late!  For that, I apologize.  This issue with the skills surpassing the spellcasting DC actually came up in my own campaign when the wizard players started maxing out their spellcraft skills.  We actually made exactly the same modification that Psion suggested.  The above rule for the higher DC makes it work much better.

To clarify: casting a spell requires a spellcraft skill check.  The DC is 10+ spell level x2, (11 for level zero).  Failure by 8 or more points, or by rolling a natural one followed by a second failure, means a Dismal failure. 

I.e. to cast a fireball requires a spellcraft check with a DC of 16.  If you roll an 8 or less, you have a Dismal Failure,  if you roll 12 or more over the DC, (a 28) you have an illustrious success.  If you roll a 16 or higher, the spell works normally.  

Overall the spell failure rules have really enhanced the game in my experience, I love 'em!

I really appreciated Psions review though, thanks   You seemed to really get the point of the book.  I hope you get a chance to use it in a game.

For those of you who have the Primer, don't forget to check out the errata on the Codicillairy page at Pelgrane

http://www.pelgranepress.com/downloads/Codicillary.pdf

DB


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## Drifter Bob (May 6, 2005)

Well, here is like a year or some odd months after the release of the Primer of Practical Magic.  It pretty much got tanked in most reviews  though a few people really liked it.  I'm proud to say that I had the honor of being excoriated by some of the most brilliant minds in the RPG industry  As a result of the bad reviews and some balance problems with the rules, the Primer disappeared into the rising flood of D20 products like a stone and left nary a ripple on the surface.

Now that the excitement of writing my first rpg book has passed, I'm just wondering if there is anyone out there other than myself who ever got much use out of the book?  We actually used it a lot in our campaign here and expanded on several of the themes therin.  I would very much like to hear any anecdotes of using spells like 'The vulgar interruption' or 'gochnours bootlip' in game.  Did anyone use the Codicilliary we put out on Pelgranes website?  I would especially love to hear from any of the people who had bought the book who posted in this thread way back when, and hear how you are doing with your gaming and anything else.

Meanwhile I'm still writing, I wrote a third part of another book for "The Riddle of Steel" RPG which has been much more well recieved  and I'm working on another RPG book on Vikings right now.

DB


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## RealAlHazred (Sep 1, 2017)

Drifter Bob, not sure if you're still checking on this. I dug out my copy of the _Primer_ a couple of weeks ago. I never got to use it much in 3.0/3.5, due to a number of factors, the most pressing being a total lack of free time to run a homebrew campaign back then. Nowadays, I find I have more free time; and with the release of 5E, and the ease with which you can convert 3.0/3.5 material to the new system, I've got a yen to run a more Vancian game. I thought I'd download the Codicilliary, but I'm getting an error downloading it from Pelgrane. Is this still available?


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## dbm (Sep 3, 2017)

Doesn't look like Drifter Bob has been active on the site since 2005. You might strike lucky if you PM him and he has notifications turned on.

Looking at this on DriveThru (as it sounds interesting) the PDF includes the Codicilliary now.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 4, 2017)

Inactive since 2005 + New Orleans = ominous combination.


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