# [Updated!]I think my life has decided to fall apart



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 21, 2004)

Alright, I need to vent. Just get things out. Advice is welcome, but before any advice, I need something to be understood:

Yes, I'm only 18 and I've made some serious choices that will effect the rest of my life very dramatically. Many people say I'm too young, but physical age is completely different than mental, and I can say without bragging that I'm probably well over 40 when it comes to mental age. I'm not too young...in fact, I think I'm too old too early. But that's not the point...now, I'll vent.

Some of you may know that I just recently moved to the UK from the USA. Some of you may also know that I did this to be with my girlfriend. I've known her for the last 8 years, and we've gone from mortal enemies, to best friends, to soul mates. It sounds so cheesy, but I can say without a doubt that I love her more than anything. Its not some teenage angst or such(I've dealt with that before, anyway...I know that). This is, whether I like it or not, the real thing for me.  Together, the two of us have worked as hard as we could to get money for this big move. We'd met a couple times before(whew, were those interesting), so it wasn't like moving in with a near stranger.

In May, she arrived in the USA to stay for 2 months. She met my family, I showed her around my old home town, etc etc. Did touristy things for her(first time) and as a parting thing for me. Then, in July...after years of working towards it, I held in my hands the plane ticket. Because of passport problems, I had to leave a week later than her, but she waited in London for me. We met up and explored for a few days before coming up here to the middle of no where(Wales).

Through all of this, though, I've felt something was off. I couldn't pinpoint it, but I knew there was something. She'd been almost pushing me away...I couldn't even put a hand on her shoulder without getting growled at. She would fawn over all her friends(and that's not really like her...she's not very touchy feely), but would barely even smile at me. Every time I asked her to be less cold towards me, she'd just pass it off as me being too clingy. Clingy? I've waited years to just be able to see her with my own eyes...let alone hold her hand, even if she doesn't want anyone else around.

Then, from her good friend(and mine now), I found out something that about killed me...and is still hurting very badly. She's pregnant. Five months along now. Not mine either...the good friend that told me. Its his. I should hate him...I should want to kill him, but I don't. I'm more angry that she tried to hide it from me, and made him(we'd only met twice before) tell me. Apparently(and I believe him for good reason), her being pregnant was that whole 1% chance thing. It shouldn't have happened...but it did. And to make things even worse, she's gone behind my back and the two of them were handfasted(Wiccan marriage...lasts year and a day then you figure out from there). The problem with this is...she and I were supposed to be under that.

I'm still living in her house(with mom and brother), but I'm slowly tearing myself apart. She told me she feels more like a sister to me than anything, and that's mostly my own fault. Things have changed between us...but she seems to want them to change more than they have. I will always love her as much as I do now. It can't be changed. I haven't thought of ANYONE for the last four years. I just...can't. She's all there is to me. The most beautiful and wonderful girl I've ever known, and no one can ever surpass her in my eyes. To her though...things have changed. She told me many times before that she needed me because I was her only equal. She's right...I was. But I became too childish and didn't grow up...That doesn't mean its completely my fault, but I'll gladly take a portion of the blame.

I don't know what to do anymore. Everytime I look at her, it hurts...but I can see in her eyes that she still loves me as before. She just won't let herself for...whatever reason. I know(and have been told by many of her friends/family) that this 'thing' with her friend won't last. They're right. It won't. The problem I have is, I don't know how long it will last. I used to think I could wait for her...but now I don't know. It hurts too much, and things really aren't getting any better.

I've applied at College here...hoping to just meet some new people. Friends of my own here. Just friends though...somehow, I have to find a way to wait for her. To stay here and grow up and do the things I need to do in life. I just don't know how. Distracting myself doesn't work...and every weekend she goes off with her friends(like this weekend). I came halfway across the world for her, giving up probably a very good life, and now I'm tossed to the side.

I can't go back. I won't. If only for sheer stubborness. I LIKE it here. The middle of no where feel is something I enjoy. And I know if I go back, things will become even worse for me. Gods, I've rambled more than I meant to...I just...argh. I know WHAT to do, but not how. I will stay here, try to live my life, and wait for her...but, the how is the problem.


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## ForceUser (Aug 21, 2004)

You are a strong and courageous person for making such a bold move at the age of eighteen. You sound like a survivor. Hang in there, it will get better.


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## Turanil (Aug 21, 2004)

Having gone to live in the middle of nowhere at age 18, you are a kind of modern adventurer. My advice would be to stay in UK for a while, and get something out of it. This is an excellent experience. It (maybe) will be time to go back home in a few years, but not right now. 

However, for the girl, I think it's hopeless. Definitively hopeless. You cannot forget her, you cannot but dream to get her back someday, but it's hopeless. Time will have to help you there. But you gonna have things to do: get a job, study something, or what not. You cannot stay at her house like that.

Well, just my 2 coppers...


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 22, 2004)

Turanil said:
			
		

> Having gone to live in the middle of nowhere at age 18, you are a kind of modern adventurer. My advice would be to stay in UK for a while, and get something out of it. This is an excellent experience. It (maybe) will be time to go back home in a few years, but not right now.




Truthfully, I would have left the US eventually. Probably would have come to this area, too. After living in fairly populated areas, its the kind of change of pace I've wanted. I can't say whether I'll go back or not, but I can say that I doubt I'll let myself just run off again. I came here for a reason...I can't just go back, even after time.



> However, for the girl, I think it's hopeless. Definitively hopeless. You cannot forget her, you cannot but dream to get her back someday, but it's hopeless. Time will have to help you there. But you gonna have things to do: get a job, study something, or what not. You cannot stay at her house like that.




Maybe my problem is that I don't think its hopeless. Or rather, I KNOW it isn't. I've known her long enough to know how she acts and what she does. She's had this habit of getting people attached to her. After a month or so, she realizes what she's done, and it ends up really hurting these people. Now, I guess you could say it just took me a few YEARS...but I'll be the stubborn egotist for the moment and say "Its different"...simply because it is. 

The reason I'm in this house is because he mother and I have actually become good friends(had to considering circumstances), she won't LET me leave here. Its a stable home, and at least that's something I've got. I won't give up though...I've just got to find a way to not think so much. Then I start dwelling on things and it all gets worse.

But I can't give up. To do that would be more of a failure than anything for me. I have to keep going...and I can see it in her eyes and the way she speaks, that no matter what she may act like on the outside, she's still the same person. Everything is still there...just...hidden. The last thing I'll do is give up though...especially after all this money and work that's gone into this. I've given up my entire family and any benefits that come with that for an unknown. Well....known, but not as well as I'd expected.

I've passed the point of no return years ago. I'm here. I can't go back. It seems like that should drive me on, but when I got here WITH someone...argh. Hopefully getting into College will help busy myself while things just...happen.


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## Hypersmurf (Aug 22, 2004)

Honestly?

Get out of that house.

Tell her you didn't move to the UK to be her buddy; that you're leaving a contact number with her mother, and if she decides she's screwed up and you were what she wanted after all, to give you a call and you'll see how you're feeling about her.

Tell her _not_ to call you just to see how you're doing, or to 'hang out', or whatever.  And tell her mother not to give her the number unless she's determined to give the-two-of-you another shot.

Yes, it could mean the end of the friendship as well as the relationship... but if the relationship is actually over permanently, then given the way you feel, trying to maintain that friendship dooms you to years of pain, and prevents you healing _at all_.

And the hollow AMG-shaped void your absence leaves in her life might be enough to make her sort out what's important to her.

I _know_ that 'see less of her' is the _last_ thing you feel like doing... but it's also the best thing for you, in my opinion and in my experience.  You say you need to 'not think so much'?  Trust me - you won't manage it in that house.

-Hyp.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 22, 2004)

Like I said, I can't leave here, if only because I've got no where else to go at this point. Sure, I could go and stay in the Halls of Residence at the College, but I don't have the money for that at this point.

However, she will be having to move soon. If only because there's not room here for ANOTHER person(especially an infant). As it stood, I wasn't going to go with her. Was going to stay here. I'm still sticking to that for now...its almost ironic, she even told me that being away from each other(even if just in different houses) for a while could do us both good.

Though I may not like hearing some of this...thanks for being honest about these things. I really don't WANT to fall apart, and I'm doing my best not to. Amazing how hard it can be. I guess I can say one thing about all of this though...a unique experience. And if the whole karma thing is right, I'm gathering enough bad experiences early on that I'm pretty much sure to have a great OTHER half of life.


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## BryonD (Aug 22, 2004)

Don't take anyone's advise.  Just bounce your own feelings off of it.



I'm 34.  I've been completely happily married 13 years to the woman I started dating over 19 years ago.  So I do understand that "young love" can be real.

BUT, nothing remotely like this ever happend with us.

Most people never start anything like a real life-relationship by 18.  So there is a nearly unlimited opportunity for you to move on to better things.  Things that start bad just do not tend at all to move toward better.  So get the hard leaving over with and get tomorrow started.

Anyway, when I comes to your life, I am a complete idiot.  Ignore what I said unless your own thoughts tell you otherwise.  But listen to your real thoughts, not just the ones you make yourself have.

Best of luck


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## Hypersmurf (Aug 22, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> As it stood, I wasn't going to go with her. Was going to stay here. I'm still sticking to that for now...its almost ironic, she even told me that being away from each other(even if just in different houses) for a while could do us both good.




I just mentioned something similar in Forceuser's thread, but even if she's in a different house, presumably she'll still be there a lot... it's her mother's house, after all.

I personally don't think that's enough separation... I think you need to completely break contact.

But hell, it's always taken me months to get around to finally doing that, even though I should know better, so I don't expect you to agree 

-Hyp.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 22, 2004)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> I just mentioned something similar in Forceuser's thread, but even if she's in a different house, presumably she'll still be there a lot... it's her mother's house, after all.




Actually, she and her mother don't get along all that well(especially recently...her mother happens to like me and doesn't exactly like seeing this happening), so no...she WON'T be around here a lot at all.

Completely breaking off contact is something I know I can't do...I can at least pull away. I know I need to. If I don't, I'll just sit here wallowing in my own sorrow and self pity. Yes, I am still only 18, and I've got my whole life ahead of me. I know things that I need for that life to happen, but I have to wait for a lot of them. I have to work for them, too. She's told me many times that I need to grow up. Not in an insulting "You're acting childish" way, but more of...hmm...I guess its just that I HAVE been sitting around and not changing.

Even if I could somehow allow myself to break contact, my conscience wouldn't let me. I owe her a lot at this point(hmm, over half the money for getting me here...keeping me sane for years...not letting me injure myself over the last couple of weeks), and I can't just disappear leaving debts like that unpaid. I'm just as bad with promises...I stick to them. And I've made her a few promises that I won't let go of because that's not right.

...heh, never realized I had my own code of honor. Always thought I was CG with Neutral tendencies. Maybe more LG...curses!


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## Hypersmurf (Aug 22, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Even if I could somehow allow myself to break contact, my conscience wouldn't let me. I owe her a lot at this point(hmm, over half the money for getting me here...keeping me sane for years...not letting me injure myself over the last couple of weeks), and I can't just disappear leaving debts like that unpaid. I'm just as bad with promises...I stick to them. And I've made her a few promises that I won't let go of because that's not right.




The money - absolutely.  (Although if she was in the States in May, and she's five months along now, I'm not certain why she actually let you put down money on a ticket...?)

Keeping you sane - she's reneged on that one.

Keeping you from injuring yourself - she's the _cause_ of that one.

Your debt is financial.  But it doesn't require personal contact to discharge that one.

As for promises... is your Wiccan handfast still under warranty?  If so, it sounds like promises are something of an abstract inconvenience to her, rather than a binding oath.  And depending on the promises in question, circumstances may render them impossible to keep...

Ah, like I say - I know how you feel.  And this is the sort of advice I wouldn't have listened to at the time too 

-Hyp.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 22, 2004)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> The money - absolutely.  (Although if she was in the States in May, and she's five months along now, I'm not certain why she actually let you put down money on a ticket...?)




She didn't actually KNOW until we got back here...



> Keeping you sane - she's reneged on that one.




...point.



> Keeping you from injuring yourself - she's the _cause_ of that one.




I was actually referring to more than one incident. Only one happened to be recent...its actually been a year or so since anything got that badly(before it was things to do with my own mother)



> As for promises... is your Wiccan handfast still under warranty?  If so, it sounds like promises are something of an abstract inconvenience to her, rather than a binding oath.  And depending on the promises in question, circumstances may render them impossible to keep...




Technically, it still is 'under warranty'. I think what surprises me(and hurts) so much is that she's always been the same as I have been with promises. Only makes ones that can and WILL be kept. They aren't things to be taken lightly. Everytime I think about it, I start to wonder if its not me who needs to grow up or if its her...



> Ah, like I say - I know how you feel.  And this is the sort of advice I wouldn't have listened to at the time too




Well, think of it this way, I got here to the UK on stubborness. I've got NO family here(well, her mom's pretty much family now), and my entire family back in the States was very...against this. If only because everyone has always stayed close.

I definitely understand the advice you're giving, but like ByronD said, I have to listen to my real thoughts. A few times I have managed to clear my mind of panic and such and just think on things. Everytime, it comes down to me waiting on her. What I do with my life until that point gets to be a surprise to me, but there's a goal of sorts at the 'end' of it. I've spent too much of my life to let it die like this.

Hmm...I never seemed to believe that writing things down helps think them out, but I've gone from depression to determination in a matter of hours. Some things between she and I are of the such that I can't discuss with others. It means that I have to tell people "Trust me on this" and that's what had my family so worried. I can honestly say that if I wait for her, she will eventually realize I'm still there. I'll have changed, of course, but...I'll still be me. The love I have for her is something that can't change. It really IS a part of who I am by now. 

Maybe things aren't as hopeless as I try to make myself think. I picked this path for my life not because it was easy, but because I KNEW it was right. All of it, not just parts of it. Its not something that I could just pick and choose from, and that's not changing. So now I'm here, and I've realized this path is a lot harder than I expected...no turning back anymore, though. I guess all I can do is hold onto the fact that I know its right. Hold onto that and keep moving. 

Life's too complicated sometimes.


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## Treebore (Aug 22, 2004)

Real love is a two way street. If she doesn't have it for you then it won't happen. Are you sure you see something hidden or are you just lying to yourself to avoid the pain?

Give yourself time and distance, when your mind clears of the confusion then you will be able to make real choices. It took me about two years. Then another two to find my wife. We have been married for 14 years and I had no idea I/we could be this happy after 14 years of being together. We are happier now than ever before.

My first love? A sick and twisted memory that doesn't hold a candle to the real thing. She is not the end all, be all of your life. Some day you will find out what that really is. First you have to learn better.

Who knows? Maybe she is just as torn up and twisted inside as you are and has convinced herself that you and her can't happen. Maybe.

More likely she comes first in her mind. That is not real love of another, that is love of herself and what she wants.

If you and her are really meant to be give yourself that separation and time to clear your head. If your meant to be she will wait for you because she will come to realize that there is no one else for her but you. If she doesn't come to realize this, on her own, then it isn't for real. When you have the distance and clarity to look at this situation without so much emotional turmoil, maybe then you will realize the truth of things for yourself.

Either way, your in for a lot of pain. Just remember there is a life after her. Don't give up on yourself. Everything else will fall into place when it is time.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 22, 2004)

Treebore said:
			
		

> Real love is a two way street. If she doesn't have it for you then it won't happen. Are you sure you see something hidden or are you just lying to yourself to avoid the pain?




I can honestly say I'm not lying to myself. Lots of reasons, but part of it being I've given up on avoiding the pain anymore.

The hardest part for me explaining things to anyone is that I may be young, but I have a lot of experience I shouldn't have at this point. I've grown up too fast because of situations with my parents, but I've come out stronger from it. It also makes me sound arrogant, and honestly I'm not, I just can truly say that I KNOW certain things to be true. Finally learning to trust my instincts more(something she taught me to do, ironically enough), and believe myself when I really do know something.

Sometimes it really annoys me how things come back to bite me in the butt so quickly. Seems like these last couple of months have been the perfect times for a lot of old sayings(that I've always agreed were true) to come back at me. The current one seems to be:

"If true love it is, then set it free...if it comes back to you, then it was meant to be."

Note to self: Take. Own. Advice.


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## Hypersmurf (Aug 22, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> She didn't actually KNOW until we got back here...




She didn't know she was pregnant; she knew she was sleeping with her friend while handfast to you!

-Hyp.


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## dream66_ (Aug 22, 2004)

Girls don't get 5 months pregnant without noticing.   She knew


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 22, 2004)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> She didn't know she was pregnant; she knew she was sleeping with her friend while handfast to you!
> 
> -Hyp.



 True. She shouldn't have gotten pregnant...but that's just another proof of how good birth control is these days. I dunno, that doesn't both me as much as being lied to.

Thinking about it, that guy's going to end up a lot more messed up than anyone in all of this. He thought I was going to rip him apart when he told me. The two of us stayed up all night just talking about all of this, and seeing him since he's got a very...confused air to him now. He knows that there are things she and I have to do on our own, and everytime I've talked with her about what she's going to do about all of this...he never gets mentioned.

She just used him as a doormat or sorts while I wasn't around. She did it to many people...it started to happen that way with me, and then that's when all of this started. She's told me a hundred times she doesn't want that...she needs an equal, but he can't be that, nor can any of the other people she's walked over without meaning to.

As arrogant, stupid, and stubborn it may sound, I know that I can be. It will take time, work, and probably a lot more pain...but the end point is well worth it. I wouldn't here, let alone still alive, if it wasn't. And until I can make it to that point, I'll fall back on my art. I let it slip anyway...something to focus on and put all my emotion into.

Most people would be angry in this situation, but then again, its not something that HAPPENS much. In fact, this is a very unique situation. Trust me, I'm listening to what EVERYONE has said. But I'm having to put that together with what I already know...and I know I'm not angry. Sad is almost right, but its one of those things where words just don't work right. Love never worked right either. Not a strong enough word for the connection between the two of us. 

Gods, its already 2AM...I think I'm going to go get some sleep. The cat that has followed me around all week looks tired too. Heh, there's another reason I can't leave. The two cats here(her's and her brother's) have become like shadows to me. If I left, they'd die from lack of attention.


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## Hypersmurf (Aug 22, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> She shouldn't have gotten pregnant...but that's just another proof of how good birth control is these days.




The advantages of monogamy...

-Hyp.


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## Baron Opal (Aug 22, 2004)

When I was in emotional turmoil over someone I thought was to be my lifemate, I found two things of great help: a) distance, and b) a time limit. The distance allowed me time for the confusion to settle down and figure out what she and I needed and wanted. The time limit was a time frame for me to figure out if she was really the one and to see if she / we were really able to get our situation sorted.

I think you need a good two months away from her. Your studying at the university will help you occupy your mind. Once you have sorted out your feelings for her and how the situation has impacted them (and it wounds like your getting close on this) then you can figure out how long you can wait for her. 

Don't wait forever. Trust me on this. Don't waste your life waiting for your dreams. It just makes you bitter.


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## Treebore (Aug 22, 2004)

Sorry but you don't walk all over people without meaning to, you do it because you don't care enough about doing it to stop.

I used to be the big jack-*ss bully type who's behind didn't stink. I was very strong, very smart, and very good at hurting people. My wife has shown me the better way. One of the first things she taught me was that I hurt people because I didn't care enough not to. 

Your GF doesn't care enough about others. She can change, and maybe your the one to help her, but you sure won't be able to make her do it. She is going to have to want to.

Maybe you two are meant for each other, God knows everyone thought my wife and I were making a big mistake. It would have been too, but I was willing to change. So was my wife. 

You and your GF are going to have to do a lot of changing and you both have to be willing, otherwise it will NEVER work.

Good luck, I hope you two prove everyone (naysayers) wrong.


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## Angcuru (Aug 22, 2004)

Baron Opal said:
			
		

> Don't wait forever. Trust me on this. Don't waste your life waiting for your dreams. It just makes you bitter.



This is so very true.  For the past two years (until about a month ago), I'd been in love with a friend from high school, and circumstance and my own cowardice kept me from telling her.  So about a month ago a get a chance to talk to her between classes at college. That, and no more.  Whether she hasn't been getting my messages or is simply ignoring me, I don't know.  But what I DO know, is that pining after her for another year will do me no good and more than enough harm.  Love IS a two-way street, and I was truly in love with her, but I will likely never find out if she could feel the same way towards me.  So, instead of wallowing in lonely self-pity and bitterness (see:  the past two years), I acknowledge that there's nothing for me there, and move on like I should have before.  My false hope of being with her has kept me from pursuing any other possible relationships, and I regret that very, very much.  I'll still have feelings towards her for a time, but there's nothing I can do about that.  The only good that came of this was that I now know what it's like to be in love, and while I don't know how it feels to BE loved,  that it can HURT when your love is not reciprocated.  

I guess my whole point is that I can even BEGIN to imagine how you must be feeling right now.  But stay strong.


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## janta (Aug 22, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> She just used him as a doormat or sorts while I wasn't around. She did it to many people...it started to happen that way with me, and then that's when all of this started. She's told me a hundred times she doesn't want that...she needs an equal, but he can't be that, nor can any of the other people she's walked over without meaning to.




She says she wants an equal, but her actions clearly show that's not true.  Further, I doubt she really considers anyone her "equal".  I'd be willing to bet that the people who don't let her walk all over them are the ones she rejects as hating her, or being out to get her or similar.  </armchair psychologist>

  I must add my voice to the chorus of those urging you to cut off contact with this girl, at least until you get your life sorted out.  Continuing to hash this out will only lead to more confusion and pain. (I speak from experience.)  She'll be around; once you've gotten yourself into school, and have an emotional support network separate from her family and friends, then perhaps you can re-establish contact.  In fact if nothing else, do whatever you can to find your own friends in the area, people who have nothing to do with her -- at the moment it sounds like the only people you've got to talk to about this are the same ones she's got, and they're certainly going to have some conflicts of interest.  I would also suggest that you consider what other resources you have stateside; if it comes down to it, do you have friends or family in the US who would be willing to loan you the money to return here?

AMG, please go back and re-read what you've written.  If all this had happened to a stranger, what would you tell that person to do?


--Janta

p.s. -- remember, ultimately the only person you can change is yourself.  She can't and won't change until _she_  wants to -- please don't fall into the trap of thinking that if you only try a little harder,  love her a little more, help her with everything, that she'll become the person who know she could be.  (I know how terribly cliche that sounds, but it's a cliche for a reason.)


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Aug 22, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> She's told me a hundred times she doesn't want that...she needs an equal



 So what she's looking for in a soulmate is a lying betrayer who completely misrepresents themselves to people they claim to love, sleeps around WITHOUT PROTECTION, is too gutless to tell their partner that they got knocked up, and then have the audacity to tell _them_ to grow up.  Sure you fit the bill?

  Go knock up somebody that you don't even respect behind her back.  Then you'll be equals.


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## Pielorinho (Aug 22, 2004)

*Ankh*, I'm not gonna call her names or condemn her: she's in the same boat you're in.  That is, she's trying to figure out the nature of love and relationships.  And while I in no way belittle the love that teenagers feel, there's one aspect that it simply can't contain:

Experience, and the wisdom that attains thereby.

I learned a lot from my first relationship, to a great woman that I dated for two years, for whom I put off college for a couple of years so she could join me, whom I was certain I would marry, who ended up leaving me for an older woman after semicheating on me several times.  

It took us a little over five years to get to the point where we're email friends, and I still think she's a great person, but looking back on that relationship through the lens of years, I shudder at how awful we were for one another.  We were both trying to figure out relationships, and we were both, necessarily, experimenting on one another (because how else to learn?), and we both hurt each other terribly, almost always without meaning to.

So you're learning some lessons here.  One lesson to learn is--well, have you ever had a cut in a prominent place, and you couldn't stop yourself from picking at the scab?  The more you pick, the more infected that wound gets.  Though the temptation to tear the scab away, to worry it, to examine it is overwhelming, *you gotta leave it be*.  

That doesn't mean don't think about it:  I may as well tell you not to blink.  That _does_ mean trying to remove yourself from the situation, so that the wound isn't constantly reopened, so that your psyche has time to heal.

Moving out is gonna be difficult.  Please, do it as soon as you can manage it.  You'll find yourself breathing fresh air that you'd forgotten existed.

You don't need to write her off forever (though you may eventually decide to do that).  You really should consider at least a two-month period of silence, however.  Be aware that she may want it to be longer; she may need it to be years.  Respect that, much as it may hurt.

I was convinced, when my first girlfriend broke up with me, that I would never love anyone else.  I thought it all through very carefully, and knew that that was the case, that it was darn near a mathematical impossibility for me to love anyone else.

I was, thankfully, inexperienced in the ways of adult love.  I was wrong.  And my vast wrongness is the closest I can come to offering you comfort.

Daniel


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Aug 22, 2004)

You're 18. You're in a tough bind.

My suggestion, contact your family stateside, let them know that you need to come home but are totally unable to afford such an expense.  If your family is as really close knit as you say, they would likely chip in for air fare to the states.  I would consider asking any of them to help put you up until you can get back on your feet.

I'm 31. I am married and have a son (he'll turn 4 in september). I was laid off from a very well paying job shortly after Sept. 11th, and remained unemployed far too long. Not long ago, my wife and I sold our house because we couldn't afford payments and our savings were depleted, and she begged me to ask my parents to let us move in with them.  My parents accepted joyfully. Right now, I have returned to college to finish a degree, I should be completed in about a year and a half.

You have family. Don't forget them when your life is upturned. Don't let your own pride hold you back.


Regards,
Eric Anondson


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## Hypersmurf (Aug 22, 2004)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> One lesson to learn is--well, have you ever had a cut in a prominent place, and you couldn't stop yourself from picking at the scab?  The more you pick, the more infected that wound gets.  Though the temptation to tear the scab away, to worry it, to examine it is overwhelming, *you gotta leave it be*.




Heh.  I am absolutely _incapable_ of leaving a scab alone.

That's one area I have zero willpower.  



> That _does_ mean trying to remove yourself from the situation, so that the wound isn't constantly reopened, so that your psyche has time to heal.




Yeah.  I tried the friend thing for a year, and it didn't work.  Then I moved on to ignoring her for six months, even though we still ended up in the same place a couple of times a week.  Which I hated, and it still didn't work.

It's only since I shuffled things around so that I never see her that I've actually started to recover.

-Hyp.


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## Glak (Aug 22, 2004)

I am not in any way advocating that you commit a crime.  Personally I would kill her, the other guy, and then myself.  That's just me though.  Don't do it, as it is illegal.


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## Krieg (Aug 22, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Yes, I'm only 18 and I've made some serious choices that will effect the rest of my life very dramatically. Many people say I'm too young, but physical age is completely different than mental, and I can say without bragging that I'm probably well over 40 when it comes to mental age. I'm not too young...in fact, I think I'm too old too early. But that's not the point...now, I'll vent.



Don't kid yourself. You are not the same emotionally as the average 40 year old. True emotional maturity comes with life experience, something you are lacking at this point in your life. A difficult childhood is not a substitute for that.



> I've passed the point of no return years ago. I'm here. I can't go back.



Bull. There is no point of no-return. That is a rationalization that you are using to justify your actions.



			
				Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> I can honestly say I'm not lying to myself.



No. You can't. 



			
				Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Most people would be angry in this situation, but then again, its not something that HAPPENS much. In fact, this is a very unique situation.



Don't kid yourself. It happens all the time.

Trust me when I tell you that at least some of the folks who have answered you in this thread have been in similar situations to yours (emotionally at least). They are advocating distance for a reason...personal experience.

Everything you have said so far belies your claims of maturity and being on top of the situation. Your words parrot those of every other 18 y/o who has ever lived. You haven't seen more, you haven't experienced more, you aren't any wiser than anyone else and your situation is in no way special or unique. You are a teenager letting his emotions and pride rule his decisions.

Seperation is exactly what you need right now. You don't have to return to the US, but you need to put space between yourself and this girl. If you really want the relationship to EVER have a chance, that seperation is _absolutely_ necessary. If there is any chance for the two of you, you have to get away. Your staying will only drive her further away. If you push now, she will only flee farther. You run a very real risk of driving her away forever.


Am I being harsh?

Yes, but you need to hear it. You aren't listening to those who are trying to say it more tactfully (will except for TW anyways lol). The only real chance you have of salvaging yourself and any chance of this relationship ever working out is to achieve emotional seperation. Immediately if not sooner. End of story.


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## Maerdwyn (Aug 22, 2004)

You can truly love her, and she can truly love you, and it can still truly be the best thing for you to break off all contact with her.

Since you are talking about love that is for the rest of your life, you have to take into consideration what the rest of your life would be like with this person. Not an idealized vision of what it would be like, butan honest appraisal of it which accepts that 1) you don't know her as well as you thought you did, or you would have seen this coming   2) Though she may love you, she is willing to do things that hurt you  3)She is willing to lie to you when convenient for her. Would have kept on lying to you had not the friend filled you in. 4) Does not honor comitments She was willing to do this at the very beginning of your committed relationship, when one might expect the passion and commitment to the relationship to be at a high point.

None of that necessarily makes her "bad,"  but she may be a bad match for you as a life partner.  Both of you have free will.  If you wait, she may indeed take you back.  But her character will not have changed.  By choosing to remain with her, you actively choose a life with a woman who will continue to hurt and lie to you, and for whom comitment is something less than eternal.  Who is willing to make you feel as you feel right now.   It is entirely up to you wheher you want to sign up for a life of that.

You have made a mistake.  Not necessarily by deciding to be with her for the rest of your life - that's completely up to you.  Rather, by moving in with her and her mother, you have made yourself completely dependent on the relationship.  If you lived alone and had a job, you could make you decisions about her without the knowledge that deciding to leave her would result in financial ruin and social isolation.  You _need_ her, and not in the sense of overpowering love.  That must change if you are going to rationally evaluate the state of your relationship and the love on both sides of it.

You need to get out of that house.  Even if you eventually decide you go back to her, you need to make that decision from a position of strength, or at least equality.  If you won't go home to you parents for a while, ask for a loan to help out with expenses until you can get a job that will cover you expenses until you can pay them back.  I would suggest that you give it about six months of living successfully on you own before speaking to her at all.  If after supporting yourself, making new friends, etc. for six months you still want her, then give her a call.

There is a very good chance that she will want you back much sooner than that after you leave.  I would till wait the six months (longer, actually, but if you won't set a longer period six month will do).  If she calls before that, don't speak with her except to say you need some more time to figure things out.  It may not be the idea of losing "you" that makes her want you back, but rather the ego hit delivered when someone who has been pining after her no longer wants her.  In any case, you need those six months (or longer) to get to know yourself as a healthy adult.  

If afterwards you still decide that your love for her is for life, then six months is a short and excellent investment, and you will go to the relationship able to support yourself, financially and socially, rather than being dependent on her and her mom for those things.  You want an adult relationship, not a parent-child relationship.


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## Krieg (Aug 22, 2004)

Very well said Maerdwyn.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 22, 2004)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> sleeps around WITHOUT PROTECTION.




See, here's the thing...she USED PROTECTION. I can't stop defending her from certain things, mainly because she doesn' 'sleep around' as has been suggested. Its become a very awkward situation, and I do agree that getting out is what I have to do.

I just can't get out physically. I'm stuck HERE for now. If I try to get out of here, I'll have a hundred more problems piled on that I can't deal with right now. But since SHE will be moving out, and won't be contacting her mother(she's lived on her own before...never once thought about 'home'). She'll be too busy dealing with things on her end to have time to even try staying in contact. So I'll get that seperation, whether I like it or not.

I'll admit now that I've probably painte her out to be a lot worse than she really is. No, I'm not trying to take back the things I've said, but the blame for many things is just as much my own as it is hers. There ARE ways to 'fix' this situation, and everyone that's said 'get out' is pretty much right. I'm going to seperate myself as best as I can, and getting into College is really the first step.

I DO need friends of my own. I WANT friends of my own, and currently, that'll be the only way to get that. Once I have that, I'll transfer to a Student Visa and then I can get a job...so there's income and a slightly more stable life for me to focus on until...whatever. I'm not going to pretend to know what will happen, but I can say that I'm one stubborn jerk, and while I will back off, I'm not giving up. I'm not giving up because I know that's NOT the thing to do. 



> You want an adult relationship, not a parent-child relationship.




Exactly! The relationship really BECAME a parent-child one earlier this year due to my own...problems. I stopped doing a lot of things I should have, and focussed far too much on my own probems at the time. This left her stuck in a relationship SHE didn't want either. So, she found one she did want. Thing is, she got more out of it than she'd planned, and it looks to me like this current 'relationship', which barely qualifies as that anymore, is only going to last a few months. That doesn't mean I'm going to jump in the second its over. Far from that...but its something everyone else has seen.

From people here, most of the advice has been similar. Get my own friends being the key to it all. No one says 'get out' because they know I can't, but they DO say to go off an have my own life. I never really wanted that before, but now I think I do. I would LIKE her to be a part of it, but right now that's not going to happen...so I'll just have to deal with that. 

Funny, I don't mind you guys being blunt and 'cruel' about this. I DO need to at least hear it. And it proves once more that ENWorld is really a great place. People here care, and that sure seems to be a rare thing on the net these days. I'l say that no matter WHAT ends up happening with all of this...thanks. Even if  I don't agree with you, thanks.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Aug 22, 2004)

OK, buddy....

I'M going to blunt and cruel. First, I'll tell you where I'm coming from, so you don't think I'm some 13 year old reading a Dr. Ruth magazine...

I'm 34 years old. Divorced at 19, widowered at 21, and now married for 11 years. I've got 4 kids (2 mothers), and started sleeping around at 13 (Ahhh, the 80's...). I've lived in Europe and the US, and prefer (now) Central Germany over most places in the United States.

  I've started over a few times. House burned down once. Lost everything I owned when a Texas Twister threw a trailer home into my house. Lost everything again duing a flood. Lost everything I owned when I went to Desert Storm and some low-life stripped my house.

  So, I'm not exactly blowing sunshine up your butt with the following:

  You're 18. You have a full life, and lots of women ahead of you.
  You also have an option that you don't see, that most people would never have the guts to take. You seem like you do.

  WALK OFF!

  Pack your stuff into a napsack, as "Mom" if you can put the other stuff in the attic, get a handful of Euro's and start walking around. Do odd jobs here and there, sleep in hostels, work taking out trash for a bistro for breakfast. Sit beside the road and compose poetry.

  DO SOMETHING!

  You have the opportunity of a lifetime. Forget her. She's gone. Let her have her handfasting and her lover. You can take your life and do something you'll remember forever.

  Make your way across Europe, promising "Mom" you'll come home in a year or two, settle down, get a job, and be productive. Take the time to get your head straight, move on with your life, let "cheating girl" move on with hers.

  You have a major opportunity that someone needs to kick you in the ass and get you started on. See the culture, and immerse yourself in it. Only arrogant F**ktards think that America is the end all be all. You have an opportunity to do things you'll eventually be able to tell your grandkids about.

  Stop moping about, stop pining over her.

  It's over. She's gone. Move on.

  "But I don't want to!" "But it can be saved!" "But I can fix this!"

  Hey, go into her purse, get your testicles, and hook them back on.

  Pack a change of clothing into a napsack, get a map and "Europe on $5 a day" book, and start walking. Rent a bicycle. GO see Europe.

  You have no attatchments. If worse comes to worse, you can come back to "mom" in defeat if it gets too much for you.

  Take a chance.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 22, 2004)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> WALK OFF!
> 
> Pack your stuff into a napsack, as "Mom" if you can put the other stuff in the attic, get a handful of Euro's and start walking around. Do odd jobs here and there, sleep in hostels, work taking out trash for a bistro for breakfast. Sit beside the road and compose poetry.
> 
> DO SOMETHING!




This I can say that I WON'T do. I'm going to go to school. I WANT to go to school. And while I nearly DID just walk off without a work last week, I decided against it because I don't even have enough money to survive that way. 

Right now, going to College is more important to me. I've got the chance to do it, and I'm taking it.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Aug 22, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> This I can say that I WON'T do. I'm going to go to school. I WANT to go to school. And while I nearly DID just walk off without a work last week, I decided against it because I don't even have enough money to survive that way.
> 
> Right now, going to College is more important to me. I've got the chance to do it, and I'm taking it.




College is different. Good thing to do.

Honestly, though, I met a lot of people who did the "backpacking through Europe" thing during a summer break, and it really gave them an unusual outlook on life that I appreciated.

I guess my post boils down to: Live your own life, and move in with it.

Besides, you say you don't have enough money to survive that way? What about the people that drift from town to town in Europe, working here and there, surviving off of basically nothing and talking weird subjects at the hostels? Or is that not done any more?

Like I said, I guess I'm just suggesting you set her to the side, chalk her up as a lesson in life, and move on.


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## Maerdwyn (Aug 22, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> See, here's the thing...she USED PROTECTION. I can't stop defending her from certain things, mainly because she doesn' 'sleep around' as has been suggested. Its become a very awkward situation, and I do agree that getting out is what I have to do.
> 
> I just can't get out physically. I'm stuck HERE for now. If I try to get out of here, I'll have a hundred more problems piled on that I can't deal with right now. But since SHE will be moving out, and won't be contacting her mother(she's lived on her own before...never once thought about 'home'). She'll be too busy dealing with things on her end to have time to even try staying in contact. So I'll get that seperation, whether I like it or not.
> <snip>
> From people here, most of the advice has been similar. Get my own friends being the key to it all. No one says 'get out' because they know I can't, but they DO say to go off an have my own life. I never really wanted that before, but now I think I do. I would LIKE her to be a part of it, but right now that's not going to happen...so I'll just have to deal with that.



(A little blunter, this time, but not out of unkindness.  I won't write more after this unless you'd like me to, and you can take this or leave it, as you choose.)

Just to be clear, I think several of us here _are_ saying 'get out'.  While you live with her mother, regardless of her daughter's presence, you are not your own man, and can't know the pride of being your own man that your word show you crave. If you are in a situation you cannot support on your own, you need to get into one you can.  

That is, you need to if you want to be thought of, by yourself or anyone else, as an adult.   If you want to have a permanent, adult relationship with this girl, both you and she must relate to each other as adults, without her mother supporting *either* of you.  Your part is to be a man - at which point you can honestly evaluate whether this girl is acting like the woman you want to spend your life with.

At 18, I still had several years of growing up left to do.  That may or may not be the case for you.  But If you are a fully formed adult, there is no reason you cannot find yourself some other living situation, even if it one less desirable, comfortable, or emotionally charged as your current one.  If you are not,  admitting it, and doing something about it would be a big step in maturity.  Children hide mistakes and deny failures.  Mature people recognize and rectify them.

College sounds like a good step - it's where I, and a lot of other people in the past few generations have done a lot of their growing up - as long as it's living on campus, and as long as you, like her, have no contact with the mother.  Otherwise college, right there, continuing to live with her mom, is just an expression of the fear that if you leave (the house, Britain, whatever), that you will never get back together with her.  It would be just an attempt to hang on, desperately trying to avoid admitting to yourself that you may have made a mistake, or failed.  Failure is not the worst thing that can happen to a person - perpetuating failure when there are ways to end it, is much worse.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 22, 2004)

Maerdwyn...

Another thanks to you. I've got a few people here that I'm trying to get in contact with, and its possible that we could move in together for College. I doubt it will happen anytime soon, but it IS something I've been looking at. I guess when I say I can't get out, I mean I can't do it NOW. I have to work towards it, and College and a job are two ways to aim towards that.

Warlord Ralts...

The backpacking across Europe is another thing I'd thought about for a while. I know right now it isn't something for me to do, but everytime I think about it I kind of grin and wonder what it would be like. Its something I'll probably try to do eventually, but College is priority for me at this point.


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## Maerdwyn (Aug 22, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Maerdwyn...
> 
> Another thanks to you. I've got a few people here that I'm trying to get in contact with, and its possible that we could move in together for College. I doubt it will happen anytime soon, but it IS something I've been looking at. I guess when I say I can't get out, I mean I can't do it NOW. I have to work towards it, and College and a job are two ways to aim towards that.



Glad to hear it, AMG.  Good luck to you;  it sounds like the thing you're planning will get things going in the right direction.


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## dream66_ (Aug 22, 2004)

Let me tell you a little story of my own life.    

I had a boyfreind who cared about greatly I loved him.  After just a few months of us dating,  He wanted me to move a great many miles with him half way across the country, he told me he would support me there, I didn't need to worry about my family or money or job or anything he'd take care of me when we got there.

I looked inside myself, I wanted to go, I badely wanted to go, but I couldn't make myself fall into that dependancy.     Turns out his reason for moving was to be closer to  a girl that lived there he had never really gotten over.      And when she didn't want him and he couldn't find a job and ran out of money, he came home.   


Until you take that step away, get that seperation you'll never be able to see what's really going on.    You can't see the forest for the trees, so climb the mountain and get the big picture.     It's hard, but life is hard.      We're only trying to help you here.


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## Banshee16 (Aug 22, 2004)

Treebore said:
			
		

> Real love is a two way street. If she doesn't have it for you then it won't happen. Are you sure you see something hidden or are you just lying to yourself to avoid the pain?
> 
> Give yourself time and distance, when your mind clears of the confusion then you will be able to make real choices. It took me about two years. Then another two to find my wife. We have been married for 14 years and I had no idea I/we could be this happy after 14 years of being together. We are happier now than ever before.
> 
> ...




I would tend to agree with you here.  I may not have as much experience, but my "first love" is somebody I'd known for years.  I thought for sure that was going to be it.  Until I was cheated on.  We ended up breaking up, even though I didn't want to.  And we tried to stay friends, which was a mistake.  The problem is that it makes it very difficult to heal....almost impossible, really.

The fact that Ankh-Morpark is staying in her mother's house, in a country so distant from his own, won't make things easier.  I think a clean break, and time away is important.  Ankh needs time to clear his head, and meet other people, and perhaps realize that this woman *isn't* his soulmate.  Or to realize that she is, and no amount of time away will make things better.  At least in the short-term though, staying in that situation is very unhealthy, IMO.

Not that I went in order to meet women, but I did find that University was an excellent opportunity to build new friendships with bright people that shared similar interests.

Banshee


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Aug 22, 2004)

Krieg said:
			
		

> You aren't listening to those who are trying to say it more tactfully (will except for TW anyways lol).



  The internet is no place for tact.  I stand by that . But since my message may have gotten lost in my love of soundbites, here's the touchy-feely Oprah version of what I said before:

 Ideally, we want to choose life partners who share our interests, passions, intellectual bent, favorite sports team, etc. I can tell you that all of these things are negotiable. I've dated people who were TW Dittoheads and people who argued constantly with me on everything from politics to favorite bagel topping. The only thing that isn't negotiable is morals. If you are someone who values personal morals and ethics, if you're the kind of person who would never cheat on or lie to someone you love, then you must have a 100% zero tolerance policy for anyone who doesn't hold those values.



			
				Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Hey, go into her purse, get your testicles, and hook them back on.



  I love this guy!  Someone buy him a beer on me.


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## Superunknown_GP (Aug 22, 2004)

*Ouch.*

AMG, I haven't been logged in here in forever, but I just did after reading this thread.

This is the first time I've ever read a thread and felt worse about someone else's love life than my own.

Kudos.

Now, on to the advice:
RUN. Run as fast you can. Yeah, maybe it's true love, and maybe it's not. On your part. But she cheated on you, got handfasted to someone else, and has left you behind with her mother. So she obviously doesn't love you. Or at least, not enough.

Get the hell out of the situation. Go back to the US, or wander around Europe, or even just find a job wherein you can work under the table, but you have to get away from her for a while. 6 months is probably the LOW end of the amount of time you need. I'm 24, I've been through some awful  in my love life, and let me tell you, the perspective you'll gain by being away for a little while is astounding.

Honestly, I'd tell you to go find another girl, even in a not-very-serious relationship, if I thought you'd listen to the advice. You've chased this one across an ocean, and all it's gotten you is hurt.

And I know this is going to sound awful and condescending, but every time I've fallen in love (thrice, for those counting at home), I've felt like it was the big one, the real thing, eternal, conquering all. And the last two times? I felt like the previous time was just a joke in comparison. What I'm saying here is, maybe when you fall in love next time, you'll feel really foolish about this one. 'Cause she doesn't deserve you, if she's treating you like that. I can tell, because about six months ago, I would've written much the same post.

Go. Live your life. Be someone. If you meet again on the path, then consider it. But give it a few miles first.


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## Hypersmurf (Aug 22, 2004)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> And we tried to stay friends, which was a mistake.  The problem is that it makes it very difficult to heal....almost impossible, really.




Amen.

-Hyp.


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## dreaded_beast (Aug 22, 2004)

I may have missed it in the thread, but how did you meet this girl anyway?


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 22, 2004)

dreaded_beast said:
			
		

> I may have missed it in the thread, but how did you meet this girl anyway?



 Met her online in an old clan for playing X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter.


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## Radiating Gnome (Aug 22, 2004)

Here's an important question . . . but first . . . 

There are a lot of people in the world, and a lot of different ways to lead your life.  Some people let themselves get caught in emotional eddies and live their lives in a sort of tragic, self-destructive, self-perpetuating tragedy.  And you're lining yourself up to be one of those people.  

Do you want to be a 30 year old who is still broken up over a woman who disappeared from his life, long ago, and when she left you gave her so much of your self worth you don't have enough left to care about someone else? Because that's where you're heading.  

You'll falling for the traps that used to catch me -- a feeling that you're needed, that you're special, that even if you're not dating your more important in her life that other people, other friends, even her dates.  And what makes it so convincing is that it's really true.  She means it, every word of it -- while she's in the room with you.  

It's an important distinction.  She's not lying, but the truth changes when someone else is in the room -- not because she's a bad person, but because she's a needy mess, and will cling to the nearest source of emotional support she can find.  

That's not love, no matter how heady it is.  It's a sort of vampirism.  

And, the bottom line is, she'll never want you.  She's never going to turn around and set her sights on you BECAUSE SHE ALREADY HAS YOU.  You gave her your heart and soul already, and in the end that just makes you too easy, to safe, and not interesting enough.  

But.  If you leave.  If you get the hell out of her mother's house and get your own life going, you own friends, your own feet back on the ground, where they belong -- then maybe you'll be ready to be won again -- and who knows, it might be her, coming back to see what she lost, or maybe it'll be someone better, someone who is looking for someone she can give back to as much as she takes.  

I spent years -- too many to count (I'm almost 37, started dating at 17, you do the math, it ain't hard)  and I've spent years and years orbiting a few women very much like the one you've described.  When you in the room with them it's like the whole world is on fire.  It's amazing.  And while you're not together, you're still thinking about her -- probably having imaginary conversations with her in the shower, writing pages and pages in your journal about her. But all that time you're thinking about her, she isn't thinking about you.  She's thinking about whomever else is in the room with her, and how she can get the attention she craves out of the person she's with.  

The longer you sit around, mooning over her, especially in her mother's house, the less likely you make it that any sort of relationship will ever really happen between you too.  Break out.  Get some loans and get a crappy apartment above a pub.  Or live in the dorms. 

The question I started off trying to get around to asking is this:  Do you want to turn into a 40 year old sad sack who spent his whole life loving a woman he could never have.  Life isn't a movie.  The ones we love don't come back if you wait long enough.  That's the exception, not the rule.  More often than not they never come back.

Start over, dude.  Get out and live your own life, and see what else is out there. 

-rg


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 23, 2004)

Radiating Gnome said:
			
		

> You'll falling for the traps that used to catch me -- a feeling that you're needed, that you're special, that even if you're not dating your more important in her life that other people, other friends, even her dates.  And what makes it so convincing is that it's really true.  She means it, every word of it -- while she's in the room with you.
> 
> It's an important distinction.  She's not lying, but the truth changes when someone else is in the room -- not because she's a bad person, but because she's a needy mess, and will cling to the nearest source of emotional support she can find.
> 
> That's not love, no matter how heady it is.  It's a sort of vampirism.




While I understand what you're saying, this just proves to me that I've misrepresented her because people here are getting the wrong impression. True, I've left out a lot of very major details, but a lot of them are not things that have a place on ENWorld, or with anyone else for that matter. They're thing between only she and I(and possibly a couple other people we're both very close with).

True, I've got to move on with my life. I plan to. I'm doing my best to do that with the resources I have at the moment. But the one thing I absolutly refuse to do is turn back. I will NOT run. I got here because I wasn't afraid to take the hard road. I didn't expect it to get any easier. I KNOW this path I've chosen is the right one. I KNOW that running is the worst thing I could do. I don't know HOW this path is going to work out. I know where its going, and I know the end result...but the direction is what I'm finding out. For me, this chaos currently occuring doesn't change the destination, it just changes how I get there.

Its amazing how determined this thread has made me. I've got a lot of good ideas on what to do now, and I have a lot of ideas on what NOT to do. Maybe her part in my life is over...maybe not. I doubt its over, but I won't say that I'm right on this one. Not just yet at least.

...well, at least I know I've got a hell of an adventure ahead of me, one way or another.


----------



## Radiating Gnome (Aug 23, 2004)

Well, good luck, with whatever you do.  It's your life, and even if you do the exact right thing this time -- whatever that is -- you're still going to screw up plenty before it's all over.  

My grandfther said only two profound things in his entire life.  One of them was this: You'll be a grownup the day you figure out you're just as big an  as everyone else. 

There are mistakes and screwups and lifechanging botches galore ahead of you -- this is just the first act of a very long play.  So, good luck.  

-rg, who wouldn't be 18 again if you paid him.  A lot.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Aug 23, 2004)

Radiating Gnome said:
			
		

> -rg, who wouldn't be 18 again if you paid him.  A lot.




I have to say, AMG's handling this way better than I would.  I'd be curled up into a ball and whimper for the next three months.  

Brad


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## Numion (Aug 23, 2004)

I'm sure you feel very mature, and you _might_ as well be. So did I when I was that age. But lets face the facts here:

- You moved into another country with no means of support
- With no solid plans for future
- With no exit plan or possibility
- For a girl you've met only a couple of times
- You met playing X-wing online
- Who's already cheated on you
- Pregnant with another mans (boys) child

Thats the gist of it, no? Just saying that after that sequence of events took place you have hard time of assuring people of you maturity. Face the facts, realize that the situation is ed up and admit 'defeat'. Knowing when to quit and cutting your losses in a realistic fashion is something I consider mature. I'm not dissing you - we all do stupid things when we're young. Thats ok, you're allowed to make mistakes young. But realizing mistakes and correcting them is an important part of growing up, and being mature. Start now.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 23, 2004)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> I have to say, AMG's handling this way better than I would.  I'd be curled up into a ball and whimper for the next three months.





Truthfully, I tried this for a day or two...didn't work. Just made things worse. I think I was trying it again when I first posted this thread. In fact, I tried AGAIN earlier today. Its really not worth it...hard to fight off when it hits, but I've managed it a few times so far so I think I can keep doing it.



> You moved into another country with no means of support
> - With no solid plans for future
> - With no exit plan or possibility
> - For a girl you've met only a couple of times
> ...




1. Do have means of support. I've got a good amount of friends here willing to help(if I can contact them), and this family is doing their best for me whether I want the help or not. At the same time, once I get my Student Visa I can work, so I planned(and still plan to) work to supporting myself.

2. Solid plans are pointless, they always get ruined. I had vague plans, and actually...most of them are still there. While coming here for HER was very important(and still is to me), College is ALSO a big thing. I want to develop my skills as an artist and hopefully(eventually at least) teach others.

3. Alright, truthfully that's probably the dumbest thing of all. I could ask my family back in the States and I COULD get back(hell, I bought round trip tickets since they were cheaper...I could go back December 2nd if I really wanted to).

4. I know it sounds childish, but those few times we met were enough to know I wasn't crazy. I still know that I've done this for the right reasons, and that I'll just have to adapt to things whether I want to or not.

5. Met her 8 years ago through playing XvT...started really talking to her about 5 years ago. For those five years, we talked on the phone for hours nearly every night. She gave up nearly all of her friends outside the internet just to speak with me. I'm not the only one who's had to make a lot of changes.

6. I didn't know she'd cheated on me until after I'd gotten here.

7. This should bother me more than it does. Young or not, this is the perfect thing to happen to her. She needs something stable in her life, and currently, I can't be that. Neither can the person she's 'with'. A child can, and will do that. It'll be very hard on her, but she'll have to deal with it.


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## billd91 (Aug 23, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> 1. Do have means of support. I've got a good amount of friends here willing to help(if I can contact them), and this family is doing their best for me whether I want the help or not. At the same time, once I get my Student Visa I can work, so I planned(and still plan to) work to supporting myself.




Good plan. Get a job that'll help pay your room and board and move out of her mother's place. Even if it's just down the street or off in the dorms. Set up boundaries and enforce them. That doesn't mean you can't go over to "Mom's" for Sunday dinner or high tea every week. It sounds like she's a nice woman even if her daughter is a bit on the blatantly careless side. Having that contact isn't a bad thing.



			
				Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> 2. Solid plans are pointless, they always get ruined. I had vague plans, and actually...most of them are still there. While coming here for HER was very important(and still is to me), College is ALSO a big thing. I want to develop my skills as an artist and hopefully(eventually at least) teach others.




College is good but solid plans are not pointless. Get rid of that notion. That's part of being an adult, especially if you eventually do settle down with this woman and her kid.



			
				Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> 3. <snip>(hell, I bought round trip tickets since they were cheaper...I could go back December 2nd if I really wanted to).




Keep that ticket as long as you can. If no job prospects arise and college isn't going that well, it's your exit out of there. I'm not saying you should definitely bolt, but reassess in November how college there is going (it's quite different from here), how things are going picking up a new social network, and job life.



			
				Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> 4. I know it sounds childish, but those few times we met were enough to know I wasn't crazy. I still know that I've done this for the right reasons, and that I'll just have to adapt to things whether I want to or not.
> 
> 5. Met her 8 years ago through playing XvT...started really talking to her about 5 years ago. For those five years, we talked on the phone for hours nearly every night. She gave up nearly all of her friends outside the internet just to speak with me. I'm not the only one who's had to make a lot of changes.




You know what? Since she's used you as a doormat and gotten hitched up with some other joker, all bets are off. She should start over, with competition from whatever other social group you get into, to try to gain your trust and affection. Set up boundaries, emotional and physical, that she has to overcome to get to you. Set up your own personal space and start over.



			
				Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> 6. I didn't know she'd cheated on me until after I'd gotten here.




That's irrelevant. She knew and hid it from you. She might have been ashamed, sure, but who's she with now? It's not you. How ashamed can she be of that relationship? How serious can she be about you?



			
				Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> 7. This should bother me more than it does. Young or not, this is the perfect thing to happen to her. She needs something stable in her life, and currently, I can't be that. Neither can the person she's 'with'. A child can, and will do that. It'll be very hard on her, but she'll have to deal with it.




Oh no. No no no. This works for some people but don't bet on it. As a single father friend of mine says, after a WHOOPS incident in college that left him with a son, his son was the best thing that ever happened to him, and the worst. If she changes because of the kid, exactly how she turns out won't be easily predictable. She might want to stick with the kid's father out of some sense of responsibility to keep the two of them together. She might go back to you, but still have this guy around as the natural father (nothing like reopening that wound constantly, right?). Or she might not change much at all, meaning that kid will probably grow up as a messed up soccer hooligan or worse because of having a messed up parent. 
Do not rely on that child to be the stable thing in her life. It's absolutely helpless for many years and can't do anything to keep her stable. Depending on her, it could well do the opposite. That's one reason you're well off getting out of her mother's house. She might have to rely on mom, or maybe if she's not coping, you should push the mother to take a more active roll as best she can for the baby's sake.
It's also another reason for you to keep up some emotional boundaries around her. She may need friends and it may be a chance for you to repay some of the friendship she offered you when you were down. Keep it at that level as long as you can, as best you can assuming you stay in the area. And keep in mind that you've got your own life, not hers and not the life you thought you had ahead of you when you moved to Wales.


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## Pielorinho (Aug 23, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> 7. This should bother me more than it does. Young or not, this is the perfect thing to happen to her. She needs something stable in her life, and currently, I can't be that. Neither can the person she's 'with'. A child can, and will do that. It'll be very hard on her, but she'll have to deal with it.



 A child is not a self-help mechanism.  That kid is likely to have an extremely rough time of it:  its conception was an act of betrayal by a young woman who doesn't have her head screwed on straight, and who has all sorts of conflicting emotions surrounding the kid.

I suspect that the kid's gonna be far from the perfect thing to happen to her.  I really doubt that she's gonna be the best thing to happen to the kid.

If ever there were a candidate for adoption, this kid has _got_ to be it.

Daniel


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 23, 2004)

Grrr...just lost this post...I'll try again.

The last thing I mentioned wasn't exactly stated right. Yes, the child is going to change her. She needs that. The father won't stay around...either she'll get rid of him(from the way she's talked with me, she never really thinks about him when she talks of the child), or he'll disappear on his own. He may care about her, but he's horrible when it comes to stress and such, and this situation has thrown him into things he never knew were coming...or rather, he didn't EXPECT were. He knew.

But the thing is, she's in a lot deeper that she seems to think. I've tried warning her, but she won't listen. Its going to be a hell of a wake up call for her when she has this child, and she needs that. I know that she won't let this child get messed up. She can be very protective of things like that, and this child is something that she's come to want now. However, that doesn't mean its going to be easy on her. I hope its hard. Spiteful, yes, but not very. If she asks me for help, I'll provide it. The thing is, if she ASKS that means she really needs it. She's not the kind to every ask for help, mainly because of an old knee injury and hating feeling helpless because of it. 

Of course, this doesn't mean I'll not think about it if she DOES ask. Who knows where I'll be at that point...maybe I'll meet someone new. I hope I do...even if just a good friend. I need some form of emotional support. She was always that, and now I've got nothing...its bottling all this up that's getting to me and making it worse.


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## Treebore (Aug 24, 2004)

Like i mentioned earlier, I had a two year hiatus after "the love of my life". the most important thing I learned at that time was to rely on myself. Of course my version of it at that time was to be a big jerk off who didn't care who he insulted or hurt. Then I met the real love of my life and realized how messed up my false love of my life was and how messed up I was as a human being. I'm about as good as it gets now, considering thats about a 1,000 times better than I ever thought it could be, I'm one darn lucky guy.

I have read every post you have made, most of them several times. I know what you should do, but I don't think your going to do it. I do wish you the best, though.

Let me tell you one "truth" about the real love of my life. She doesn't cause me pain. She bends over backwards to avoid it. I do the same for her. We don't hurt each other, we protect and support one another. We have from the beginning and have just gotten better at it over the years. That is my "love of my life". The real one that has lasted for 14 years and that I know will last until the day one or both of us dies, and then beyond.

Again, I wish you the best.


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## Snoweel (Aug 24, 2004)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Honestly?
> 
> Get out of that house.
> 
> ...




Abso-smurfly *perfect* advice, Hyp.

Typical Kiwi pragmatic level-headedness. They must stick something in the water over there.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 24, 2004)

Treebore said:
			
		

> I have read every post you have made, most of them several times. I know what you should do, but I don't think your going to do it. I do wish you the best, though.
> <snip>
> Again, I wish you the best.




At least you're honest with me. Though I may not agree with what you've said, I've read pretty much every post in this thread multiple times, and have thought on each of them. I'm STILL thinking on them. Its hard to make the right 'choice' because there are a large number of things I didn't mention in this thread. Like I said, they aren't things to be discussed with others(especially on ENWorld), but they're important enough that I can't just disappear. Sure, I can back off and live my own life(which I plan on doing my absolute best to do), but I have to stay close enough to her and a couple others that I'm within contact when its needed.


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## Bagpuss (Aug 24, 2004)

Which part of Wales are you in North or South? And are you going to GenCon UK (in Minehead) this year?


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 24, 2004)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> Which part of Wales are you in North or South? And are you going to GenCon UK (in Minehead) this year?



 Up in North Wales...VERY North Wales. And no, I'm not going to GenCon UK, but I am going to the Game Con Thingy in London next week...for some reason, the name eludes me.


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## Bagpuss (Aug 24, 2004)

Flint? (I think that's about as North as North Wales gets.) Should be lots of castles in your area. I live on the Wirral myself.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 24, 2004)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> Flint? (I think that's about as North as North Wales gets.) Should be lots of castles in your area. I live on the Wirral myself.



 Holyhead, actually. I guess its more Northwest than North...but that isn't the point.


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## Bagpuss (Aug 24, 2004)

If you don't want to go too far get in Uni at Bangor or Liverpool JMU (they take anyone I should know they took me). Move into digs or halls, you ain't more than an hours travel away and it gives you the space you need. Plus you should be able to find a RPG group to take your mind off her.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 24, 2004)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> If you don't want to go too far get in Uni at Bangor or Liverpool JMU (they take anyone I should know they took me). Move into digs or halls, you ain't more than an hours travel away and it gives you the space you need. Plus you should be able to find a RPG group to take your mind off her.



 Actually, Bangor's just near here. That's where I'm planning on going. Because of strange school differences and such, I'm going to be going to Coleg Menai over in Bangor for a foundations course in art...or something similar.


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## Bagpuss (Aug 24, 2004)

Art College, cool choice the boy to girl ratio in them means there are usually plenty of cute single sexually active young women available that will take your mind off her pretty quick.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 24, 2004)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> Art College, cool choice the boy to girl ratio in them means there are usually plenty of cute single sexually active young women available that will take your mind off her pretty quick.



 Except I AM going there for the actual school.  Sure, those other things are something to look at, but right now my focus is on finishing up my portfolio...tough work because I'm such a strong critic of my own work.


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## TiQuinn (Aug 24, 2004)

My advice is find a night job and a roommate at your college, and get out of that house.  Regardless of how much the mother likes you, she's her daughter and she's carrying her grandchild.  If they don't have enough room, and your "GF" needs help, you will be the one who's gone.

From what you've told me, this girl finds you convenient.  You fill a certain need for her.  When you aren't convenient or what she needs, she'll push you away (as she's done).  She will do it time and again, and the onus is on you to get out of the situation.

Basically, nothing good will come of being anywhere near her or her family.  You need to leave, and do so ASAP.  If you can't because of a financial situation, then you need to find a way to change your financial situation until you CAN leave.

Good luck.


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## Obryn (Aug 24, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> While I understand what you're saying, this just proves to me that I've misrepresented her because people here are getting the wrong impression. True, I've left out a lot of very major details, but a lot of them are not things that have a place on ENWorld, or with anyone else for that matter. They're thing between only she and I(and possibly a couple other people we're both very close with).



Hi, I don't really know you at all, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents here.

I don't think you're misrepresenting her to us.  You're presenting her just fine; you're just rationalizing the very real things she's done to you.

The simple, basic fact is that she betrayed you, totally and completely.  There might not have been any malice in it, but no matter what the age, there's no excuse.

Everyone in this thread knows the basic facts - she cheated on you with someone else before she visited you in the USA and got pregnant.  She knew she was pregnant probably during her stay in the States when she missed her period.  She didn't bother mentioning to you the fact that she was pregnant for several months, and she didn't even tell you herself - you had to find out from _the guy who got her pregnant_.  She got handfasted to this other guy, and handfasted to you.

And she knew _all of this_ before you hopped on that plane.  She _could have_ told you all of it before you left the USA.  She didn't let you make a decision of how you wanted your life to go for yourself; instead she pulled the rug out from under you when you were basically defenseless against it.

Unless these details are false, that's enough to know that _she is probably not a good person for you to be around_.  And if she is saying she loves you, the cold, hard fact is that she's mistaken.  You can't call something with so many levels of betrayal "love."  She's probably young, confused, misled, and deeply sorry for all of this.  I have no doubt she cares for you in some selfish way, too.  But it doesn't matter; until she grows up, she'll do it again and she'll keep playing you for the fool, maliciously or not.

You keep insisting that the folks giving you advice here don't know all the details of this relationship.  They don't need to, because the skeletal details are enough.

You're talking a lot about not admitting defeat, facing hardship, and being where you wanted to be anyway.  Like I said, I don't know you, but this sounds an awful lot like rationalization to me.  Parts of you still need her around, so you're coming up with excuses to stay close just in case she should come to her senses.  I know this feeling - I've been there.

Be coldly, brutally honest with yourself.  I don't think you are right now.  Admit that you've made a mistake, that she's not who you thought she was, and that life without her (while tough for a while) will be better for you in the long run.

-O


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## Trainz (Aug 24, 2004)

Hey Ankh !

 Listen man... why did you post this thread ? I assume it was to receive some advice on your f'ed up situation. About everyone told you the same thing: GTFO. Yet, you keep defending her, you keep saying we're wrong.

 Then what ? Did you post this thread to get justification ? You won't find it here. What you'll find here is the brutal honest truth. And emotional support. But man, you have to wisen up.

 I have met a girl when I was about 20. Your friend sounds a lot like her. That girl always kept me at bay, and yet always clinged to me as an emotional crutch, until 5 years had passed and I realised I was used by someone who will forever live in the dark. I then shaped-up, said "You know what, if you won't come around, I won't waste the rest of my life for you" and almost never saw her again.

 5 years man. 5 friggin' years. It wasn't fun at all. You can either:

 A- Ignore all the experienced advice you got from this thread and shoot yourself in the foot, bracing yourself for a hellish not-so-merry-go-'round or;

 B- Wake-up and make a man of yourself. You dubbed yourself mature ? Act like it.

 I'm coming out strong at you. Brutally so. I'm sorry. I just don't want you to go through what I had to if I can help it.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 24, 2004)

Trainz said:
			
		

> Listen man... why did you post this thread ?




Honestly, it was to vent. I was keeping too much inside and I really just needed to get it out. I knew ENWorld was a good place, and I'd get good advice here, even though I knew it probably wouldn't be completely to my liking.



> I'm coming out strong at you. Brutally so. I'm sorry. I just don't want you to go through what I had to if I can help it.




Don't be sorry. I'm glad everyone is willing to BE strong and honest with me. I need it, whether I really like it or not. And though it may not sound like it, trust me on this one...I AM taking a lot of the advice in this thread, its just that some of it will take more TIME than others.

I still think ByronD had the best post. I have to take all of this and weigh it to ALL the variables, and only I can truly do that. Then again, that ALSO takes time.


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## Mister Mojo (Aug 24, 2004)

I am, as you can see, almost purely a lurker here. So take what I say with that in mind, if you like. But I am speaking from experience.

I had a friend once named Mark. Mark was one of the funniest, wittiest, most intelligent and ascerbic people I ever knew. At 18, I surely would have said he was "18 going on 40." 

I was wrong, of course. Such people generally do not exist.

In our senior year, Mark was hanging out with some friends of his from the high school he had attended for his freshman and sophomore year before transferring to my school. While there, he met a girl named Beth. Beth had met one of Mark's friends during a debate competition in DC. Beth lived in Nebraska; Mark's friend lived here in NYC. A long distance relationship was born. But after Beth met Mark, she dumped Mark's friend and embarked on a relationship with him.

Fast forward seven months to graduation. Mark takes me and a couple of our other friends aside, smiling happily at Beth ten feet over, and tells us that he's been accepted at one of Nebraska's state universities -- the same one Beth will be attending. My friends and I were apprehensive ... but they seemed to love each other, and if it made him happy, what the heck?

Fast forward to September. I'm in my dorm room way upstate, adjusting to classes at college, having been there less than a week. The phone rings. It's my best friend JP, who dishes the gossip that -- *gasp* -- Beth has dumped Mark.

Over the next few months the following came out:

- Beth broke up with Mark after someone at the girls' side of the dorm took one look at him and said in the most sneering tone imaginable, "THAT's your boyfriend?"
- Beth almost immediately took up with another lover -- a woman -- after arriving at the university.
- Beth took pictures of herself with this new lover and mailed them to Mark.

Mark subsequently found himself halfway across the country, with no friends, no family, and no support network. He nearly committed suicide, and with all the problems he had brought down on himself over this girl, it took him eight years to get a Bachelor's Degree.

Your situation is not unique. You do not have any great insight into the world or the human condition. You are a very young man -- practically a boy -- who has gotten in terribly over his head, manipulated and having had your goodwill and charitable nature taken advantage of by a selfish, dishonest young woman who is practically a girl. 

You have advantages over Mark -- Mark had a horrible relationship with his divorced parents, which is the main reason he did not come back to NYC -- and Mark had one big one over you -- no other man's baby in the picture.

You need to go back home, AMG. You are right -- no one here knows this girl, or you, or the sweet nothings you've whispered to each other. But Mark told me something once after he had recovered from HIS disaster when I was having woman problems that I found quite profound:

"No, I don't know her, I don't know how she really feels about you, or how you really feel about her. But what I DO know is the effect she's having on you."

We see the effect she's having on you. We see it wearing down and doing horrible things to a nice guy who apparently thinks "maturity" means shouldering a thousand times more weight than he needs to.

Go back home, AMD. It's not admitting failure to jump out of a house that's burning down around your ears.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Aug 25, 2004)

Let me start this with a simply statement: I believe in young love.  My husband and I met when I was 17... we were married when I was 19. The beginning of your story was so romantic... but, at the risk of sounding like a huge bitch... Ankh-Morpork Guard, you seem to be a prime example of a co-dependent... I know because I was one for years and years-- I had all the excuses for all my mother's problems.  But, eventually, you come to the realization, whether by your own will or the will of others, that it is not your place to make those sorts of excuses anymore.

True, she has issues... but, in a situation like this, you need to think about yourself for a while.  Your entire life revolves around HER problems.  YOUR life isn't falling apart, HERS is.

_You two may be in love_... Love with a big L, even.  You may be mature... However, she is not.  Give her time to grow up and stop making excuses for her immature behavior.

It'll make you a better, happier person.


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## Archon (Aug 25, 2004)

*find someone else to make you happy.*

dude. you don't need her. period.


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## The_Universe (Aug 25, 2004)

I'm just catching up with this one - all I can think of to say is *Oh. My. God*.  You, my friend, appear to have stepped out of reality into the strange shadow dimension where old Jerry Springer episodes go to die. 

I admire you for wanting to stick it out.  I once felt the same in a similar (but _far _less extreme) instance in my own life.  As soon as you get a chance, sit back and think - _really think - _about what's going on, here.  The woman who brought you across the Atlantic has, in the interim, been joined to another man both figuratively and literally.  _Why are you still there?  _

You don't have to answer these questions for us.  But you do have to answer them for yourself...hopefully, the answers you come up with will not only make sense to you, but also be comprehensible to others.  It's not perfect, but its a good way to get a sanity check sometimes.  

Nonetheless, what I _really _think will happen is that if you ask yourself those questions seriously, with the maturity you profess to have, you'll find that you've stepped into a situation you _don't need.  _

In the words of wise Arthur, often thought to have been born and raised in the very Wales in which you find yourself:  

"Run away!  Run away!"


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## coyote6 (Aug 25, 2004)

Mister Mojo said:
			
		

> - Beth took pictures of herself with this new lover and mailed them to Mark.




How . . . bold. Didn't they invent scanners and certain Usenet groups in response to silly things like that?   

AMG -- what most everyone else said. I think getting outside of the current situation will let you get another perspective on things, and figure out how you feel.


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## Trainz (Aug 25, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Don't be sorry. I'm glad everyone is willing to BE strong and honest with me. I need it, whether I really like it or not. And though it may not sound like it, trust me on this one...I AM taking a lot of the advice in this thread, its just that some of it will take more TIME than others.



 Hey man, you do what you must. Since you've been nice and entertaining to me in the past, and since I have lived something "similar", I owed it to you to give you my two cents.

 Good luck living this through, and I dearly hope the best for you. Stay strong, and when it hurts too much, BACK OFF and take a deep breath.


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## Mister Mojo (Aug 25, 2004)

coyote6 said:
			
		

> How . . . bold. Didn't they invent scanners and certain Usenet groups in response to silly things like that?




They sure did, but this was back in 1994, and Mark was not the most computer-savvy person in the world (he refused to buy a sound card as he thought it was a pointless accessory "and they'll never make PC games with decent sound anyway").

Look, no one said these were the brightest people in the world. It was just easy to think that when you were 18.


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## Andrew D. Gable (Aug 25, 2004)

Mister Mojo said:
			
		

> - Beth took pictures of herself with this new lover and mailed them to Mark.



If I was he, I would've taken pictures of myself and my current girlfriend and sent 'em to _her_.  Right back at ya, El Chica Psycho!


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## Snoweel (Aug 25, 2004)

One more thing, AMG - people aren't what they *say*; people are what they *do*.

No matter what comes out of her mouth (especially in those tender moments after you've thrown a length up her), you should be judging this girl (and her feelings for you) by her *actions*.

Which seem pretty clear in this thread.

Your 'girlfriend' is selfish and irresponsible. She doesn't care one iota about you, though she *appears* to care because you make her feel intensely guilty.

And that really annoys her.


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## Old One (Aug 25, 2004)

*Interesting Thread...*

AMG -

It seems like there are 2 issues here...

(1) Your Grand Adventure (tm): I envy you this...striking out on your own across the pond, attending University in the UK and experiencing a different place is awesome, IMO.  Plus, you have picked one of my favorite areas...North Wales...fell in love with it after spending some time there a few years ago and can't wait to go back.  I strongly encourage you to continue to pursue your adventure there...live, explore, travel, make life-long friends...it really is the chance of a lifetime.

*BUT*

(2) The Betrayal (tm): I understand you need to vent and seek other perspectives.  You have gotten a lot of advice in this area...some of which I agree with and some of which I don't, so I will throw my 2 coppers into the pot .  

First, although you feel that you are 18 going on 40, you are still only 18.  I guarantee you that when you are 40, you will look back on this and shake your head, hopefully with a smile on your face.  This is coming from someone who is 41 and who, at 18, thought he was 18 going on 40.  I too struck out from kith and kin at 18 on a grand adventure that led me all over the world.

Second, You need some time and distance from the 'girlfriend' and her family.  Although it is safe and convenient to stay with her mother...and they don't get along terribly well right now...blood is thicker than water.  Once that baby arrives, things may change considerably.  Start saving now, look for employment/housing opportunities closer to school...make plans to strike out on your own.  Continuing to provide emotional support for her at the 'Love" level, when she doesn't reciprocate, isn't fair to you and - to put it in game terms - is like willingingly offering up your neck vein to a friendly vampire everytime she needs a little sustanance.

Third, don't waste your life waiting for her to 'come around', 'realize the error of her ways', 'see the truth' or any of these other cliches.  My first marriage (too young, for the wrong reasons) was to a woman who didn't return my level of commitment.  I wasted 7 years of my life - from age 27 to age 34 - 'waiting for her to come around'.  What I got instead was several betrayals, several separations and her pregnant with another man's child while we were still technically married.  I see many of the thoughts and feeling I went through reflected in your writings in this post.  Is it possible that things might eventually work out?  Anything is possible, but - and I think you already know this deep down inside and just won't admit it - it is highly unlikely.

One thing I know for certain is that unless you walk away, get some time, space and perspective and stop being her emotional crutch, you will never find out.  If you don't walk away, you miss the chance to find someone who truly is your soulmate and will return your love and commitment in equal measure...she is probably out there now...signed up for the same graphic design class or waiting in the cafe across the street, but you will never know if you don't let go.

~ Old One


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 25, 2004)

Old One said:
			
		

> One thing I know for certain is that unless you walk away, get some time, space and perspective and stop being her emotional crutch, you will never find out.  If you don't walk away, you miss the chance to find someone who truly is your soulmate and will return your love and commitment in equal measure...she is probably out there now...signed up for the same graphic design class or waiting in the cafe across the street, but you will never know if you don't let go.




Agreed. She and I had a fairly long talk last night about things...and though I can't just give her my number, walk out and tell her to call if she ever means what she said before, I did what for me was about equal at this point.

Three pictures of her that I've had for different lengths of time have become very important to me. One is the first one she ever sent me...about, oooh, 5 or so years ago. The other was two years ago, and the third was from my graduation just this past May. They used to be kept with an e-mail I had from her. It was something that helped me through a lot of tough times...pretty much telling me that I couldn't go off and kill myself because that would hurt other people(especially her) far more than it would me. I was her only equal, and she couldn't survive without that. So I kept that e-mail in my wallet for a good long time...last night, I gave her the printed e-mail(which is in fairly bad shape at this point), and the three pictures. I told her that if she ever feels that way again, that I won't make any promises, but I'll still be around. 

We are still going to do our best to stay friends, and though a lot of you have advised against it...we both decided that its something each of us need. Besides, I've said before there are a few things I can't mention here that require us to keep in contact, so that's another thing. Hopefully, things will at least stop hurting so much. Its gotten better, though today has been a bit tough for some reason, I actually think I'll be alright.

Actually, I just got a response from the College this morning. Apparently, I have an interview with them next Thursday...which, of course, I have to reschedule because we're heading down to London for a Game Con of sorts...but its not hard to reschedule it, and its just one step closer to getting out and at least figuring a few more things about myself out.

Yet again, I've got to say thanks to everyone here. I don't agree with all of the advice given, and I probably won't follow a good amount of it, but its here to read, and to think on and weigh with the rest of my options, which is really an invaluable thing at this point.


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## Obryn (Aug 25, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> We are still going to do our best to stay friends, and though a lot of you have advised against it...we both decided that its something each of us need. Besides, I've said before there are a few things I can't mention here that require us to keep in contact, so that's another thing. Hopefully, things will at least stop hurting so much. Its gotten better, though today has been a bit tough for some reason, I actually think I'll be alright.



Just so I feel like I'm doing my job here...  She may very well need you in some way, but man - you do not need her.  She has played you for a fool for at least 6 months, if not longer.  Look at the situation honestly - do you _really need_ to see her?  Or are you just retreating to a place where you feel comfortable with a thought in the back of your head that things may work out?  If it's the latter, stay away from her until you have a life established that doesn't involve her in any way.

Things won't stop hurting so much until you find a life of your own, without her (or a need for her) involved in it.  Don't look towards any hypothetical futures where the two of you could be happy because that'll just perpetuate the rut you've found yourself in.

It sounds to me like you're seriously lacking in the self-confidence department.  Carrying a torch for her after she's done all these horrible things to you (and _never forget_ that what she's done is _inexcusable_) will just erode at your self-esteem even more.



> Actually, I just got a response from the College this morning. Apparently, I have an interview with them next Thursday...which, of course, I have to reschedule because we're heading down to London for a Game Con of sorts...but its not hard to reschedule it, and its just one step closer to getting out and at least figuring a few more things about myself out.



Erm, I hate to say this - but since this is a generalized "give advice to AMG thread" I'll just point out that your priorities might be a little skewed here.  I'd say an interview at a college far outweighs any gaming convention I can think of.  If it's not a big deal to move it, it's not a big deal - but you're basically on your own now and you need to start prioritizing like an adult instead of like a kid.



> Yet again, I've got to say thanks to everyone here. I don't agree with all of the advice given, and I probably won't follow a good amount of it, but its here to read, and to think on and weigh with the rest of my options, which is really an invaluable thing at this point.



Well, in hope you'll drag this thread out in 6 months' time and look back at it, and have a whole fresh perspective.  Your situation isn't unique; many of us who are older have had similar, and the advice we're giving comes from learning things the hard way.

-O


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 25, 2004)

Obryn said:
			
		

> Erm, I hate to say this - but since this is a generalized "give advice to AMG thread" I'll just point out that your priorities might be a little skewed here.  I'd say an interview at a college far outweighs any gaming convention I can think of.  If it's not a big deal to move it, it's not a big deal - but you're basically on your own now and you need to start prioritizing like an adult instead of like a kid.




Its not a priority...but I don't have much of a choice at this point. The tickets were paid for a while back, and can't really be changed anymore. It'll just insult her mother to not go(since she paid for ALL of it). The interview was rescheduled just one day later(when I'll be back) and it wasn't any real trouble.

As for the self esteem thing...well, I would have agreed with you on that one about two hours ago. The biggest key, I noticed, to seeing how bad my self esteem is usually involves if I can draw anything or not. Its been about...hmm...six or seven months since I've really been able to put anything on paper that's worth anything at all.

I just finished up one of the bset portraits I've ever done, and man it feels good to be able to draw again. I was worried for a while that I'd screw up this whole Art thing because I can't seem to focus or do anything right...but I've managed it, so I think I'll be alright now. Finally.


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## Obryn (Aug 25, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Its not a priority...but I don't have much of a choice at this point. The tickets were paid for a while back, and can't really be changed anymore. It'll just insult her mother to not go(since she paid for ALL of it). The interview was rescheduled just one day later(when I'll be back) and it wasn't any real trouble.



Oh, in that case never mind. 



> As for the self esteem thing...well, I would have agreed with you on that one about two hours ago. The biggest key, I noticed, to seeing how bad my self esteem is usually involves if I can draw anything or not. Its been about...hmm...six or seven months since I've really been able to put anything on paper that's worth anything at all.



Good!  Stay on that!  Anything that builds up your confidence and distracts you from thinking about her in anything other than a negative light is GOOD.  Best of luck, AMG!

-O

-O


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Sep 8, 2004)

Alright, thought I'd give everyone an update since some big things have been worked out.

I'm going back to the USA in the next week or so. This isn't because of people telling me to do that here and in other places, but because its what I feel I NEED to do. I won't stay forever, in fact, I'll come back here to Wales in a few years. But I've found that I won't come back to be with people...I'll come back because I love this place. Wales is a place I CAN spend the rest of my life, and would love to...but not just yet. There's too much pain here that I need to back away from for a while, and then I can come back and truly enjoy this place for what it is.

And as before, I can't just stop thinking about her. Its not going to happen...but I'm doing my best to let go as much as I can. An old saying I used to here a lot was something along the lines of "If love it is, then set it free. If it returns, then its meant to be". Sure, that's wishful thinking, but right now hope is all I've got. Maybe I'll grow past it, I'm not sure if that would be good or bad, but I'm not leaving it out as an option.

So...for the second time this year, I'm moving back to my home town of Gainesville, Florida. I love it there just as much as I love it here in Wales. Its where my dad is. He and I had a lot of problems earlier on because of how my parent's divorce worked out, but now we're doing great...and this will give both he and I a lot of time to be closer again. Hell, he was the first person of my family I was able to tell about all of this...which surprised me.

But, again I'll say to everyone, THANK YOU ENWORLD! You have helped me so much, and though I may not agree with a lot of things said, they're good to hear. Sooo...anyone looking for a player in the Gainesville area?


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## Maerdwyn (Sep 8, 2004)

That's great to hear! 

I'm glad you and your dad will have some time together, and that you were able to talk to him about all of this. 

Gainesville is a bit far to commute for a game, but if you're ever in the DC/Baltimore/Philadelphia area, let me know, and we'll have a few pints. 

Ian


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## nerfherder (Sep 8, 2004)

I've just spotted this thread, and just want to make a couple of points.

Firstly, I'm impressed with all the advice.  I found myself nodding along to most of it.  I met the love of my life when I was 21 and spent the next 12 years in a blissfully happy relationship with my soul-mate.  Then things went wrong (I won't go into it, but it made me realise that you can never 100% know someone) and I now find myself a single man again.  All the stuff about getting away and not trying to stay friends is spot on, even though it is really tough to do at first.  I had to turn my back on the person I loved for 12 years.  It wasn't easy, but it was definitely the best decision for me.

Which leads to my second point, which is that I think you're doing the right thing.  It is absolutely not defeat, it is moving on and taking positive control of your situation.

Good luck with everything.  If you do ever make it back over to our shores, there are a lot of other lovely parts of the UK - Scotland (lots of different parts) and Northumberland to name just two.

Cheers,
Liam


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Sep 8, 2004)

nerfherder said:
			
		

> Good luck with everything.  If you do ever make it back over to our shores, there are a lot of other lovely parts of the UK - Scotland (lots of different parts) and Northumberland to name just two.




Oh, I'll be back to the UK. It may be years, but I'll be back. I just need to get to the USA and spend some time on my own(I can't really do that here, people[i.e. her mother] would worry too much). But when I'm ready, I'll be coming back for a longer stay. This place is really wonderful, and I ENJOY the feeling of being in the middle of no where.

...besides, people get such a kick out of hearing that an American wants to move here to WALES of all places.


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## nerfherder (Sep 9, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> ...besides, people get such a kick out of hearing that an American wants to move here to WALES of all places.



Must... resist... making... sheep... joke...   

Cheers,
Liam


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## Pielorinho (Sep 9, 2004)

So glad to hear it, *Ankh*!  I think that's going to help, in the long run.

There's another saying that helped me get over a difficult relationship, although you'd kinda think it wouldn't help:  _A thing's not done till you can leave it be._

That doesn't mean that you ought to be working to revive the dead; it's not a call for necromancy.  Instead, it's just saying that, if you find yourself worrying at it like a dog at a Kong toy, that's okay:  your brain and your heart still have a lot of work left to do on this, I wager, and there's no special call for you to act otherwise.

Best of luck with everything!

Daniel


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## haiiro (Sep 9, 2004)

I just found this thread, read through it all, and am very glad you're making the right decision, AMG.

I don't know you from Adam, apart from our mutual good taste in authors and your posts here on EN World (which I tend to enjoy), but there are a lot of things going on in your life that come very close to things that went on in my life when I was 18. From what I can tell, you seem like a good guy. 

When you get a chance to look back on this sometime down the road, I am confident you'll be glad you left. Dead-on ing right choice, no question about it.


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## francisca (Sep 9, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> "If love it is, then set it free. If it returns, then its meant to be".



No.  Get it right.

If you love something, set it free.
If it comes back, shoot it.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Sep 9, 2004)

francisca said:
			
		

> No.  Get it right.
> 
> If you love something, set it free.
> If it comes back, shoot it.



 Hehehe. 

Oh, and go ahead making sheep jokes. I've been making them for the last 3 months so now its other people's turn! I already know this is a good choice...in fact, it looks like I'll be going back this weekend(Sunday probably) then spending a week or so in Atlanta with my mother and such...then, down to Florida and I'll figure out where to go with things from there.

Just need to find me a good d20 group of one form or another. I've DMed so long I REALLY need to start playing again...


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## Bagpuss (Sep 9, 2004)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> This place is really wonderful, and I ENJOY the feeling of being in the middle of no where.




Wales is hardly the middle of no where, you could easily walk to civilization from pretty much any point in Wales in about half a day. American has way more places where you won't see a soul if you walked for a week.



> ...besides, people get such a kick out of hearing that an American wants to move here to WALES of all places.




So you have a thing for sheep...


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Sep 9, 2004)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> Wales is hardly the middle of no where, you could easily walk to civilization from pretty much any point in Wales in about half a day. American has way more places where you won't see a soul if you walked for a week.




True, but I just plain like it here. So nyah. 



> So you have a thing for sheep...




You people are plotting something with those sheep! I know it! They outnumber the people so much that they're planning an invasion! Someone must stop you...and your sheep!


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## ironmani (Sep 9, 2004)

francisca said:
			
		

> No.  Get it right.
> 
> If you love something, set it free.
> If it comes back, shoot it.



I thought it was 
If you love something set it free.
If it doesnt come back, hunt it down and kill it.


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## randomling (Sep 9, 2004)

Wales, huh?

Sheep jokes aside, it *is* one of the most beautiful parts of the UK. Of course, I'm a city gal as anyone will tell you...

Good luck with everything, AMG.


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## Elrik_DarkFury (Sep 9, 2004)

I don't even have the courage to read this.Things like this can tear you apart and destroy you permanently,
OR make you find yourself and give the strength to become change your life, leave the  and all those that hurt you back and become the thing you wanrt to be.
You are a good guy that had the unluckiness to mess with someone that is u don't deserve to him.
It like an addiction with that person and when u are addicted your perception of reality is not ok.Try to see things clear.
What would she do if you had a relation with a friend of hers after so many years u know each other?
Find a job to get indipendent.
Go to school to become something usefull.
And lift yourself from the crap.
-Also find new friends and relate with other girls.
(sorry about that friend,i really sympathise and like u damn it, but your x-girlfriend does not worth a cent.)
u deserve a better girl than one that after 8 years sleeps with another person and acts that irresponsibly.
- i know i write crap but  try to better your life by leaving the bad things behind.

______________
The Wizard


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## Elrik_DarkFury (Sep 9, 2004)

huppy to see u leave the s@@@t behind! GOOD LUCK!!!  

-as always  my words come a bit late but as long as u are allright and huppy that is ok to me. see you
_____________
The Wizard


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## francisca (Sep 9, 2004)

ironmani said:
			
		

> I thought it was
> If you love something set it free.
> If it doesnt come back, hunt it down and kill it.



You could be right.  Either way works for me!


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## Paladin (Sep 9, 2004)

I heard somewhere once that love truely is...the laundry, dishes, the orthadontist, cooking, cleaning, doctor's visits, soccer, football, cheerleading, ballet, tap, orchastra, planning, re-planning, living on a shoestring budget, laughing at yourself, and, occasionally, looking at the one you love across the room full of trash and toys and crap everywhere while the kids are running around, slapping each other and screaming their holy heads off, and thinking "At some point tonight I'll be able to hold hands with this person and we can lay down in a semi-quite room...and go to sleep!"  
Now, if you find this kind of love, then you've got the real thing! I'm sorry you went through all that stuff, but i'm glad you've found a sound answer also. You've survived something that sounds like an awful experience. Finish college and find your "someone you can fall asleep with"!...P-wife


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Sep 11, 2004)

Well, she and I had a very long talk yesterday...and a lot of good came out of it. I think I've finally got a sense of closure, which I really did need. Leaving tommorrow morning around 3AM for the drive down to London(her mother is taking me). Then, flight leaves that afternoon.

Strange, I think I'm almost afraid to leave...Not that I won't go through with it, but its almost like coming here. Its something I've never done before, and I'm just plain terrified. I'm ready to see my faimly...to grow up in a sense, and then come back when its time to...but now...heh, its amazing how hard it is to go through with some things. Just like I knew coming here was the right thing to do, going back for now is the right thing. I wish I could sleep right now(will need it) but I'm all...nervous? I dunno. Just rambling now...

Yet again, a big thank you to everyone here. I know I've made the right choice, and EVERYONE here has helped in some way. I think I can actually say I'll be alright. This has been the best and worst experience of my life...and for once, I honestly don't know where my life will go from here.

I think I like that.


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## Faerl'Elghinn (Sep 12, 2004)

Hi, A.M.G. (Love Pratchett, btw):

Very difficult situation in which you've found yourself there.  I never found myself quite as helpless, but I have had my heart completely shattered by women/girls a time or two.  

I always seemed to find myself scrambling to pick up the pieces, just as you're doing, but eventually, I came to realize that I was only prolonging the inevitable.  Even if you do manage to get things back into semi-working order, you'll be starting out with a heavy strain on your relationship, which can make things extremely difficult.  You can hope that something like this won't happen again, but there will always be that shadow of doubt settled in the bottom of your belly.  

Of course, the situation would be entirely different, as you'd actually be a physical presence in her life, which can have a dramatic impact on immediate feelings and desires.  In her defense, it's very hard to maintain a long-distance relationship, and at your age, that kind of commitment across a rift of several thousand miles can't really be considered entirely binding for either party.  The fact that she slept with this other guy doesn't really convince me that this girl is necessarily a lost cause, although it is certainly disappointing.  Women have physical and emotional desires as well, and the need for human contact is a universal motivator which often overrides distant previous commitments temporarily.

I would say that the time and energy you've put into this relationship thus far would merit at least one more shot, whether as adults on your own, or as dependants under the care of someone else.  She may very well rediscover her attraction to you if given the opportunity to really experience you as a physical entity in her life on a regular basis.  

I'm speaking from the perspective of a 25-year-old man who who has been married since 19 and is now the father of 3.  I have had a couple of serious long-term relationships which resulted in devastating heartbreaks due to various circumstances (none of which involved infidelity).  One of these resulted in my expulsion from my parents' home at the age of 18.  I have also had numerous close female friends, and several flings and one-night stands.

Anyway, regardless of how your situation turns out and what you choose to do, I wish you only the best.  You seem to be doing a very good job of maintaining your composure, which is very important for you to make the decision which you feel is the most responsible.

Edit: Sorry to chime in so late- should have read the last page.


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