# DriveThruRPG.com to release 3.5 edition Dungeons & Dragons titles in eBook format



## Morrus (Jun 16, 2006)

DTRPG's WotC section is here.

Atlanta, GA, [Friday, June 16th, 2006] —DriveThruRPG announced today that Wizards would be making a huge selection of its Dungeons & Dragons® roleplaying game titles available as eBooks on www.DriveThruRPG.com.

“Based on the response to the eBook tests we have run with DriveThruRPG over the past year, we have decided to release almost the entire library of current Dungeons & Dragons titles, over 90 game titles, into the eBook format." said Scott Rouse, Brand Manager for Dungeons & Dragons at Wizards of the Coast.

“By providing current 3.5 edition material in eBook format, Wizards is allowing Dungeons & Dragons fans to easily and legally get official D&D products in digital format,” said Steve Wieck of DriveThruRPG.com. "We are pleased to take this big step toward our goal of having all roleplaying game titles: past, present and future, available digitally, 24/7, around the world."

Wizards has elected not to make the three core rulebooks for Dungeons & Dragons available as eBooks at this time, but almost every other current Dungeons & Dragons title will be available from DriveThruRPG. New titles are scheduled to release one each weekday on DriveThruRPG: Some of the titles to be released first include: Races of the WildTM, Book of Vile DarknessTM, Heroes of HorrorTM, Arms and Equipment GuideTM, d20 ApocalypseTM, Champions of RuinTM, Complete ArcaneTM, Unearthed ArcanaTM, Masters of the WildTM and Book of ChallengesTM.

With the ability to search for specific rule text, to cut and paste passages onto character sheets or adventure notes, or to take an entire RPG collection with you to the gaming table, the e-book format has become increasingly popular with gaming fans as an adjunct to the traditional printed format.

"Whether they want to copy a monster from Monster Manual II into their adventure notes, transfer a spell from a class guidebook like Defenders of the Faith on to a character sheet, or just read the latest Eberron title from a laptop during their next trip out of town, roleplaying game fans will finds lots of ways to use the wealth of digital content Wizards is releasing," added Steve Wieck. 

Launched in June, 2004, DriveThruRPG.com is the premier site for digital content from major roleplaying game publishers. The site features extensive catalogs from companies such as Wizards of the Coast (Dungeons & Dragons), White Wolf (World of Darkness, Exalted), Mongoose (Paranoia, Conan), Chaosium (Call of Cthulhu), Dream Pod 9 (Heavy Gear), Eden Studios (All Flesh Must Be Eaten, Buffy the Vampire Slayer), Fantasy Flight Games (Midnight), Fan Pro (Shadowrun, Classic Battletech), GDW (Traveller, Twilight 2000), Guardians of Order (Big Eyes Small Mouth, A Game of Thrones), Holistic Design (Fading Suns), Malhavoc Press (Ptolus, Monte Cook’s Arcana Evolved), Necromancer Games (Wilderlands of High Fantasy), Pinnacle Entertainment (Deadlands) and many more. DriveThruRPG.com offers both new titles and hard-to-find classics.

Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc. (NYSE:HAS), is a worldwide leader in the trading card game and tabletop roleplaying game categories, and a leading developer and publisher of game-based entertainment products. The company holds an exclusive patent on trading card games (TCGs) and their method of play and produces the premier trading card game, Magic: The Gathering®, among many others, such as the recently released Duel Masters® Trading Card Game, games and family card and board games. Wizards is also a leading publisher of roleplaying games, such as Dungeons & Dragons®, and publisher of fantasy series fiction with numerous New York Times best-sellers. For more information, visit the Wizards of the Coast website at wizards.com 

“Wizards of the Coast, Dungeons & Dragons, D&D, Races of the Wild, Book of Vile Darkness, Heroes of Horror,  Arms and Equipment Guide, d20 Apocalypse, Champions of Ruin, Complete Arcane, Unearthed Arcana, Masters of the Wild, Book of Challenges, Monster Manual II, and Defenders of the Faith are trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc. in the USA and other countries.”


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## Nightfall (Jun 16, 2006)

Darn you beat me to it Morrus!


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## Aus_Snow (Jun 16, 2006)

I would've thought that whoever makes these kinds of decisions for WotC might learn something since last go.

That is, eBooks are generally not sold at the full print price! Yeesh.

Unless this is some kind of bizarre symbolic act (or something), why on Earth are they bothering?


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## Jdvn1 (Jun 16, 2006)

got my threads mixed up

Man, those price suck.


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## resistor (Jun 16, 2006)

And here I got all excited... until I saw the pricing.  :-/


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## trancejeremy (Jun 16, 2006)

? I thought they already were selling them someplace?


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## amethal (Jun 16, 2006)

I suppose its a small step in the right direction.

A review of the Frostburn pdf said that it was a small file, the clarity was reasonable and it was searchable. Hopefully the others will be as well.

I wonder how many they will sell at full price. I don't even pay full price for the printed versions, except when I want to support my FLGS.

Once Fourth Edition comes out maybe they'll start selling the 3rd edition pdfs for 5 dollars each ....


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## Maggan (Jun 16, 2006)

Aus_Snow said:
			
		

> I would've thought that whoever makes these kinds of decisions for WotC might learn something since last go.




What were the results of the last try?

/M


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## Nebulous (Jun 16, 2006)

I'm really surprised they're selling for so much. I mean, that's nearly cover price for some of those, isn't it?


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## Nightfall (Jun 16, 2006)

Yeah well apparently they haven't figured out cheaper is better for PDFs.


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## sckeener (Jun 16, 2006)

I do not mind the prices.  

Admittedly it would cost me less to scan it myself legally.  As an example, buy FC1 at Buy.com for $17, scan it in 3 minutes, and ocr it in 15 minutes....still cheaper than buying at full price.  Remember to scan in the receipt (w/your name and the product on the receipt - basically watermark your pdf)  My scan though would not be as small nor as good a copy as drivethrurpg's though.

What does annoy me about drivethrurpg's offer of wotc books is the pdfs are still DRM.  I can't stand DRM.  I'd rather have watermarked.  I already write my name in my books so they don't get confused at the gaming table.  I do not have a problem with my name on every page.  I have already had to change computers twice...DRM does not make that easier. 

Still...they will have me as a customer.


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## Nebulous (Jun 16, 2006)

I should ask...what is DRM exactly?


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## Kestrel (Jun 16, 2006)

I like having pdf copies of the books I already own, but at these prices I would basically be buying the book twice.  No thanks.


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## Maggan (Jun 16, 2006)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Yeah well apparently they haven't figured out cheaper is better for PDFs.




Somehow I figure that WotC wouldn't do this if the trial run they did wasn't sucessful enough to support this strategy.

Unless someone else has any numbers to back it up, I'm taking this move as an indication that the initial trial release of WotC D&D books through Drivethru was successful. Even with DRM and the price level.

Otherwise I fail to see why WotC would do it again without changing the parameters.

But if anyone has any other figures, numbers, or results about the first trial run that indicates that is was a qualified failure, I'm willing to listen.

As I said in another thread, I'm not buying because of the DRM (I would consider it if the files were Watermarked), but the fact that they are releasing more books using the same strategy as before indicates to me that enough people did buy them to make it worthwhile for WotC.

/M


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## Aus_Snow (Jun 16, 2006)

Maggan, you may have caught me out there. 

In that, I heard about the history of this from someone on these boards, a while back. And that's what I was basing my comment on. My bad.

As I (or rather, as 'they') recall, WotC apparently tried the same thing at the same place, and it failed dismally. I think the first part is true.. I'm just not sure about the last.

I agree that logic would dictate not repeating an obvious error.. without a darn good reason. Therefore, as they are going over the same ground, it must've been at least partly successful. As you say.


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## Maggan (Jun 16, 2006)

Aus_Snow said:
			
		

> I agree that logic would dictate not repeating an obvious error.. without a darn good reason. Therefore, as they are going over the same ground, it must've been at least partly successful. As you say.




Well, it is conceviable that they are losing money on the venture, but are putting it down as advertising, or research or whatever.

/M


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## JustaPlayer (Jun 16, 2006)

There was a big stink about the pricing of the original books they placed on DT as well.  WotCs response was that they didn't want to undercut the book market and if you didn't like it don't buy.

I thought the resonse was funny being that I could get the books much cheaper on Amazon.

Are they still electing to use DRM on these?  I know the earlier ones are still only DRM.  Oh well..... Two reasons I won't be buying them.


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## JustaPlayer (Jun 16, 2006)

Maggan said:
			
		

> Somehow I figure that WotC wouldn't do this if the trial run they did wasn't sucessful enough to support this strategy.
> 
> Unless someone else has any numbers to back it up, I'm taking this move as an indication that the initial trial release of WotC D&D books through Drivethru was successful. Even with DRM and the price level.
> 
> ...



Well, I don't think there is much chance of losing money on a venture like this.  All we are really talking about is storage space on a hard drive.  Heck I got my 500GB hard drive for $200.  No, even at those prices it can only be a win/win situation for both companies.


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## Aus_Snow (Jun 16, 2006)

JustaPlayer said:
			
		

> Well, I don't think there is much chance of losing money on a venture like this.  All we are really talking about is storage space on a hard drive.  Heck I got my 500GB hard drive for $200.  No, even at those prices it can only be a win/win situation for both companies.



Well... except if it costs WotC any substantial amount of money just to have their PDFs hosted there. I think that might be so. Therefore, there's still a _possibility_ - as far as I'm aware - that they could lose money this way.

I'm unsure as to whether they made money, lost money, or broke even in the past. I have no idea what will happen this time, either.




			
				Maggan said:
			
		

> Well, it is conceviable that they are losing money on the venture, but are putting it down as advertising, or research or whatever.



And yeah.. true. Always a possibility when you're talking about a large company.


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## sckeener (Jun 16, 2006)

Nebulous said:
			
		

> I should ask...what is DRM exactly?




DRM is Digital Rights Management. In the case of Adobe's method of DRMing PDFs, you register your PDF.  The first time you open the PDF it registers on the Internet.  This usually is not a problem since you just downloaded it.  It links the PDF to your accout [passport] and that PC.  If you take the PDF to another pc, you will need access to the internet and have to register that computer to open the pdf.  I can't remember what the max number of pcs is..... I know I use 3 computers myself,  my work, my home and my pda.  Their is no problem opening the PDF offline as long as you registered the file once and are on the computer you registered it on.

The problem comes in if you ever lose your account information and change pcs.  You can not then register the PDF.  The big question for me is will I be able to open these files in 15 years.  I can still open my books in hard copy in 15 years, but there are very few files I access easily from 15 years ago or 1991.  I was still using DOS 3.3 in 1991.


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## JustaPlayer (Jun 16, 2006)

Aus_Snow said:
			
		

> Well... except if it costs WotC any substantial amount of money just to have their PDFs hosted there. I think that might be so. Therefore, there's still a _possibility_ - as far as I'm aware - that they could lose money this way.



Does it cost to host them there, or does DT just take a cut of each PDF sold?


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## sckeener (Jun 16, 2006)

Maggan said:
			
		

> Somehow I figure that WotC wouldn't do this if the trial run they did wasn't sucessful enough to support this strategy.
> 
> Unless someone else has any numbers to back it up, I'm taking this move as an indication that the initial trial release of WotC D&D books through Drivethru was successful. Even with DRM and the price level.
> 
> Otherwise I fail to see why WotC would do it again without changing the parameters.




Who is to say they won't have a sale in a month or two  (probably 6 months)?  Right now it is new and no reason to change the price unless people are not buying.  I bet we'll see the price drop in 10% increments until they hit the sweet spot of good return on pdfs without affecting their hard copy sales.


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## JustaPlayer (Jun 16, 2006)

sckeener said:
			
		

> Who is to say they won't have a sale in a month or two  (probably 6 months)?  Right now it is new and no reason to change the price unless people are not buying.  I bet we'll see the price drop in 10% increments until they hit the sweet spot of good return on pdfs without affecting their hard copy sales.



I don't know.  The original 7 are still at full price.


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## Voadam (Jun 16, 2006)

With DRM I won't even consider picking them up.


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## Voadam (Jun 16, 2006)

It's too bad, I buy pdfs every month and I would like to buy these if they were not DRM and were at a more competitive price point.

Oh well, plenty for my pdf buying dollar to keep me going on stuff I do want for years at my monthly rpg budget.


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## jaerdaph (Jun 16, 2006)

I encourage all traditional print publishers moving into the PDF market to take a look at Green Ronin's PDF pricing vs. that of Green Ronin's print product pricing as a guideline.


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## jaerdaph (Jun 16, 2006)

DRM is also a guaranteed NO SALE for me.


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## DonTadow (Jun 16, 2006)

Eh, DRM isn't bad if you have a full copy of adobe acrobat. I'm glad they are moving in the right direction. I do hate that they havn't realized that people aren't going to buy something in soft cover when they could buy it in hard cover for the same price. My idea would be the green ronin system with a twist. Perhaps provide some kind of proof of purchase of the hardcover book and you get a discount off the electronic book. That would be a way of detering file sharing, far more effective than DRM and sill ysecurity measures. Even gaming companies are moving away from trying to "lock up" material opting to instead listen to what their customers want.


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## JustaPlayer (Jun 16, 2006)

There's no question in my eyes that they will make sales.  At least one of their previoously released DRM products at full price was in the top 20 on DT for a while.  If they were user friendly with a good price point even at less margin they would blow the PDF market away.  Until then, Monte will pretty much reign as king when his releases come out.


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## Nellisir (Jun 16, 2006)

The price is less offputting to me than DRM.  I'd consider buying a pdf version of the Spell Compendium at full (print) price just for the cut-n-paste ability, but not with DRM.  So, no sale.


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## TheAuldGrump (Jun 16, 2006)

Let us do the math now...
Stupidly bad pricing + DRM = NO SALE

Yep, the  equation works out. 

The Auld Grump, who refused to buy from DTRPG while they were selling only DRM protected PDFs... I am glad that _they_ at least learned from their mistakes.


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## Nightfall (Jun 16, 2006)

Well I think that DTRRPG.com figured that at least for some of its customers, watermarking was/is fine.


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## tylerthehobo (Jun 16, 2006)

JustaPlayer said:
			
		

> Does it cost to host them there, or does DT just take a cut of each PDF sold?




I'm pretty sure that DT just gets a percentage, but the arrangement varies based on volume.  You can bet your bottom dollar that DT would do anything to house these rather than lose out to rpgnow or somebody, though.


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## dren (Jun 16, 2006)

jaerdaph said:
			
		

> I encourage all traditional print publishers moving into the PDF market to take a look at Green Ronin's PDF pricing vs. that of Green Ronin's print product pricing as a guideline.




I agree wholeheartedly.


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## Vigilance (Jun 17, 2006)

I still think it's good that WOTC has the PDFs there. For those that don't have a FLGS and for books that are out of print, it's a good option.

Chuck


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## Yair (Jun 17, 2006)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> I still think it's good that WOTC has the PDFs there. For those that don't have a FLGS and for books that are out of print, it's a good option.



I don't have a FLGS. Still not good for me, and I'm living pretty far from anywhere.

But yeah, this is better than nothing. A small step in the right direction. Someday, we'll see no DRM reasonably-priced pdfs as a result of this. I hope.

Yair


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## Kunimatyu (Jun 18, 2006)

Maybe this is just a way for Wizards to set the stage for a service where you buy the "real" book, then pay a nominal fee to get the PDF as well.


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## grot (Jun 18, 2006)

SO, not that I'm advocating piracy, but WoTC has to know that all of these books are widely available, most OCRd, to any geek with the will to find them.  That's what they are really competing against.  What they should realize is what apple and a few folks in the music industry have realized: If you make it easy and cheap, consumers will in fact pay for the things they need.  The only real reason I ever want eCopies is usually for modules, so I can avoid retyping piles of stuff into online games.  I always already own the physical module.  There's zero reason I am not going to buy the eCopy when i can just scan and OCR what I need myself, or get it from a friend who already has an OCR'd version.


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## Cyberhawk (Jun 18, 2006)

This would be a great idea for those books I was on the fence over (such as Heroes of Horror).  A pdf version at a small discount really would have sold me.

Alas the prices are still very high and they're DRM pdfs, so I won't be purchasing any of them. 

Oh well...


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## Man-thing (Jun 18, 2006)

I have to admit that the DRM is  typically a non-sale for me. However the price is making me take them into some consideration. 

I prefer my game books in PDF format and while they are at full american cover price they are technical on sale as Canadian as my credit uses a better exchange rate. 

At book stores and my FLGS, WOTC books are sold at RSRP and in Canada that is a 30% exchange rate.

Complete Psionic was $29.95 US but sold at the MSRP for Canada which was $42.00.
Even though our dollar is hovering at .90 US. It should have been about $35. 
At DTRPG, I will save $7 and pay no taxes.


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## Graf (Jun 19, 2006)

Good for them. White Wolf doing it probably encouraged a lot of people but this is fundimentally good for the hobby.

The price is their business (litterally). Unless people stop buying tabletop books (and there are no FLGSs anymore) don’t expect them to undercut the print market.


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## Urza (Jun 19, 2006)

I'm sorry, but a PDF is NOT an eBook. WotC just annoys the hell out of me sometimes. Yes PDFs are awefully handy.


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## Aus_Snow (Jun 19, 2006)

Graf said:
			
		

> The price is their business (litterally). Unless people stop buying tabletop books (and there are no FLGSs anymore) don’t expect them to undercut the print market.



Of course it's their business, literally.

However, those prices have (literally) prevented a number of sales already. And it's only just been announced, basically.

Those are not sales that would've undercut _anything_. Nope, just sales. So they have *lost* money, already, by virtue of pricing their PDFs at a ridiculous level.

Someone at WotC has absolutely no idea what they are doing. Perhaps they could indeed take a look at any market they're trying to get into, before um.. getting into it. Just an idea.


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## JustaPlayer (Jun 19, 2006)

Graf said:
			
		

> Good The price is their business (litterally). Unless people stop buying tabletop books (and there are no FLGSs anymore) don’t expect them to undercut the print market.



How would say a 25% price cut undercut the print market when Amazon already gives %37 off and buy.com gives about 43% off.  Yeah, the fact that they have full price makes a lot on sense.


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## francisca (Jun 19, 2006)

sckeener said:
			
		

> What does annoy me about drivethrurpg's offer of wotc books is the pdfs are still DRM.  I can't stand DRM.  I'd rather have watermarked.



That's a show stopper for me as well.

I refuse to buy any DRM stuff from DTR.  I have no problems with watermarking, however.  Once Necromancer products went to watermarked, I bought about $150 worth of stuff, so I have put my money where my mouth is.


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## sckeener (Jun 19, 2006)

JustaPlayer said:
			
		

> The original 7 are still at full price.




true.  I can hope.  Can't I?


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## sckeener (Jun 19, 2006)

Nellisir said:
			
		

> The price is less offputting to me than DRM.  I'd consider buying a pdf version of the Spell Compendium at full (print) price just for the cut-n-paste ability, but not with DRM.  So, no sale.




I'm not sure about all the PDFs, but I know that Fiend Folio does not allow copy&paste.  It is very annoying.


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## sckeener (Jun 19, 2006)

Cyberhawk said:
			
		

> This would be a great idea for those books I was on the fence over (such as Heroes of Horror).




I that from your phrasing that you were on the fence and finally decided to get Heroes of Horror.  It really is a great book.  I highly recommend it in either PDF or hard copy.


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## sckeener (Jun 19, 2006)

Man-thing said:
			
		

> Even though our dollar is hovering at .90 US. It should have been about $35. At DTRPG, I will save $7 and pay no taxes.




Yet another reason for me to move to Calgary....
thx


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## Bobitron (Jun 19, 2006)

TheAuldGrump said:
			
		

> Stupidly bad pricing + DRM = NO SALE




Same thing here. The pricing has to be maybe 50% of print retail and the book very useful for me to buy, but with DRM I'd even stay away then.

I love having stuff in print and pdf, so I'm the perfect customer for this. But I'll spend my money elsewhere until the WOTC pdf policies change.


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## Anurien (Jun 19, 2006)

I think this is a fantastic idea, well done to WoTC and Scott Rouse. Outstanding and perfect timing as we are about to put a PDF capability into RPGXplorer.

It seems like we're moving in the right direction now, I thought it was beyond fantastic that I could download PDF's for the Age Of Worms campaign from Paizo, but if I can have the Forgotten Realms books on my laptop as well I will just be in hog heaven.

p.s. Don't forget to include hi-res scans of the map inserts!


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## Arnwyn (Jun 19, 2006)

Man-thing said:
			
		

> I prefer my game books in PDF format and while they are at full american cover price they are technical on sale as Canadian as my credit uses a better exchange rate.
> 
> At book stores and my FLGS, WOTC books are sold at RSRP and in Canada that is a 30% exchange rate.
> 
> ...



Holy crap, man - what book stores are ripping you off?

Around here, at book stores we're only paying a premium of $3 over the U.S. cover price for d20 books (ie. US$29.95, so the books have been priced at $32.95 Cdn - and it's not really a "premium" because we're actually getting it slightly _cheaper_ than Americans in $US. Yay virtual exchange rate!). The book stores have (mostly) been ignoring the printed MSRP on all types of books (which is a complete crock, anyways). There was an interesting article printed about this very issue just a couple of days ago in the local paper...


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## Man-thing (Jun 19, 2006)

My FLGS is good for all d20 products. Very far about the exchange and good for preordering.

The however have a terrible deal with distributors for WOTC books, and get gouged by the distribution cycle and need to pass the damage on.

Coincidentally, most of my print product buying goes to Green Ronin and Mongoose.


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## imagineGod (Jul 4, 2021)

About damn time too. I got a lot of 4th Edition Dungeons and Dragons. 

There are many 3rd I never played outside Eberron, do this is d good time to get those when DriveThruRPG does the next sale, maybe Christmas.


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## imagineGod (Jul 4, 2021)

I am hoping there will be print on demand options for this 3rd Edition stuff like some of the 4th have?


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## PsyzhranV2 (Jul 4, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> About damn time too. I got a lot of 4th Edition Dungeons and Dragons.
> 
> There are many 3rd I never played outside Eberron, do this is d good time to get those when DriveThruRPG does the next sale, maybe Christmas.



Please, read the date the thread was posted, and the date of the last post before your's.


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## J.Quondam (Jul 4, 2021)

Welp, this is a bizarre necro.


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## aramis erak (Jul 6, 2021)

jaerdaph said:


> DRM is also a guaranteed NO SALE for me.



Same.
Note that most of the DRM methods have workarounds by the pirates anyway.


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## PsyzhranV2 (Jul 6, 2021)

aramis erak said:


> Same.
> Note that most of the DRM methods have workarounds by the pirates anyway.



_sceams_

You too, please check when the thread was posted! The post you're replying to is 15 years old, WotC has had digital versions of the 3.5e books available since forever ago.


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## imagineGod (Jul 6, 2021)

PsyzhranV2 said:


> _sceams_
> 
> You too, please check when the thread was posted! The post you're replying to is 15 years old, WotC has had digital versions of the 3.5e books available since forever ago.



Till today, not all those 3e books have print-on-demand. I just checked and posted a link that Heroes of Horror still lacks that, over a decade on. And the after market prices on that book are crazy high.


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## TwoSix (Jul 6, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> About damn time too. I got a lot of 4th Edition Dungeons and Dragons.
> 
> There are many 3rd I never played outside Eberron, do this is d good time to get those when DriveThruRPG does the next sale, maybe Christmas.



Saying "about damn time" in a necro of a 2006 thread lifts this into the upper echelon of unintentional comedy.


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## imagineGod (Jul 6, 2021)

TwoSix said:


> Saying "about damn time" in a necro of a 2006 thread lifts this into the upper echelon of unintentional comedy.



But nobody was hurt reading that, not the many who came visiting, like you, now.


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## PsyzhranV2 (Jul 6, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> Till today, not all those 3e books have print-on-demand. I just checked and posted a link that Heroes of Horror still lacks that, over a decade on. And the after market prices on that book are crazy high.



Well, the thread was about digital books, not print-on-demand books. So I'm not sure what your point is.

And how did you even find this thread in the first place??? Do necroposters intentionally go trawling through the darkest recesses of the history of message boards, to find the most random threads to resurrect? Why? You could have just left it dead. A lot of boards consider necroposting rude, or even a rules violation.


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## Morrus (Jul 6, 2021)

PsyzhranV2 said:


> And how did you even find this thread in the first place??? Do necroposters intentionally go trawling through the darkest recesses of the history of message boards, to find the most random threads to resurrect? Why? You could have just left it dead. A lot of boards consider necroposting rude, or even a rules violation.



Well we don't. But this post is pretty rude. Knock it off, please.


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## jaerdaph (Jul 7, 2021)

aramis erak said:


> Same.
> Note that most of the DRM methods have workarounds by the pirates anyway.



Thanks! I was just saying to someone the other day, "when did I become old man yells at cloud?" and now I see it goes back at least 15 years!


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