# (Spoilers) Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix



## thatdarncat (Jun 21, 2003)

Just finished. 766 pages in one sitting, with the occasional break to peek into the chat room.

Wow

ask me after a nap how I feel about that  I might have to talk to a few people about it once they've read it as well. I think I'll be sorting things out for a while. 

Things I liked:

- Harry teaching. 
- the stuff with Cho
- Dumbledores' ignoring harry all year and his explination.
- Percy
- FRED AND GEORGE!
- Neville
- The assault on the Ministry of Magic by the DA.
- Dumbledores' fight with Voldemort
- More people calling You-Know-Who Voldemort

I think I'm going to go sleep now  I'll expand on that when I wake up


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## Dinkeldog (Jun 21, 2003)

Must resist spoilers....


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## KenM (Jun 21, 2003)

I just want to know what major character died?


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## Bob Aberton (Jun 21, 2003)

HUGE SPOILER




















It was Sirius Black who kicked the bucket.  

Rather suddenly, too...though I guess maybe Rowling was trying to show how in a war people do die in random and senseless ways...


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## thatdarncat (Jun 21, 2003)

Yeah, there's a whole chapter or two of magical battle which feels like anyone can die. The DA almost loose a couple of members, but it's not until towards the end, after the calvary has arrived, that Sirius dies.


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## KenM (Jun 22, 2003)

Who is Sirius again? What is the DA? I never read the books, just saw the 2 movies.


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## thatdarncat (Jun 22, 2003)

KenM said:
			
		

> *Who is Sirius again? What is the DA? I never read the books, just saw the 2 movies. *




Stop reading this thread and go read the books 

Sirius is from the 3rd book, the DA is from the 5th


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## CrazyMage (Jun 22, 2003)

I was buying my copy at 7:10 this morning.  Finished a little bit ago (unlike thatdarncat, I took a nap in the middle).  Lots of interesting twists and developments.  Loved the way Fred and George left school--those guys have style.  I hope Rowling doesn't take three years for the next book (unless it's 1000+ pages)

Stop reading this, and go read the book for yourselves


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## Piratecat (Jun 22, 2003)

Just finished! We got our copy this afternoon, but I then spent three hours at a friend's bbq.  

SPOILERS, BUT YOU ALREADY KNEW THAT
----------------------------------------------------

I really enjoyed it. I was pretty sure that she was going to off Minerva when she got hit by the stun bolts; I'm really glads that isn't what happened.

I thought the book held together quite well. It was a superb illustration of what happens when normal people - not Good or Evil, just normal - are separated by fear, denial and politics. The situation at the Ministry of Magic is a delightful illustration of what can happen in a good D&D game.

Anyways, I'm going to go sleep and dream of small dusty glass balls.  I'm probably in good company.


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## Someone (Jun 22, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *The situation at the Ministry of Magic is a delightful illustration of what can happen in a good D&D game. *




Notice how Piratecat thinks on D&D at all times.


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## Piratecat (Jun 22, 2003)

Well, it _is_ a D&D board. On a politics board, I'd be stressing the nasty infighting and skillful media manipulation.  Honest.


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## Samnell (Jun 22, 2003)

Bob Aberton said:
			
		

> *HUGE SPOILER
> 
> 
> 
> ...




In retrospect, I think it was well-foreshadowed. Sirius was acting a bit off all book, more like Prisoner Sirius than Goblet Sirius. I'm glad Harry got over constantly raging at Ron and Hermione, though. For a while I thought after having Ron and Hermione alienated from the other two in the trio in successive books  we'd see Harry alienated from both of them and totally on his own. 

Best part for me, though: Dumbledore's conversation with Harry at the end where he tells all and we get the Albus-eye-view of the series.

Also, was MacGonagall on fire this book or what? She's always so controlled and we seldom get to see her really human side. Seeing angry, nasty, righteous Minerva tear into Umbridge was just precious. She was only referring to Harry's marks with the _competent_ Defense Against the Dark Arts teachers.


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## stevelabny (Jun 22, 2003)

i apparently read slower than the average geek, but i'm done.

THE TITLE OF THE POST SAYS SPOILERS SO I'M GETTING RIGHT INTO IT.

the first two chapters were great, first with dementors and then Petunia's lapse into commenting on the Wizarding World...
the next 600 pages or so had some of the fun little things of the other harry potter books and the occasional extra character bit, but there was no sense of danger or urgency.
 CoS had people being petrified. PoA had mysteries of Lupin and Sirius, both of were in Hogwart's while someone was up to no good. GoF had the TriWizard Tourney going on which brought with it the drama and tension of each challenge. OotP has Harry having nightmares and nobody telling him anything. I'm not exactly frightened. I figured with Voldy having a body, the danger factor would be turned up a notch, instead...BAD DREAMS. wtf?

The only really cool thing in this book was Gred and Forge's grand exit. Neville's spotlight looked promising, but he never took the fight to the woman who messed up his parents.  I was sure Cho HAD to be up to something, but instead she was apparently just acting like a stupid teenage girl. And the much hyped death happens in such a way that all of us who have trained at the school of "if there isn't a body, there isn't a death" didnt feel an instant emotional impact because why would i even think he's really dead???

The things that are really bothering me though are all the clips into the past. If that was really one of Snape's worst memories... I'm gonna lose all respect for the guy. I'm not incredibly surprised that James and Sirius were punks, but the way Lily was portrayed I just don't buy her changing her mind 2 years later.

And worst of all...the prophecy. First, it even repeats itself. Why does it say TWICE that the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord will be born as the secenth month dies. Is this a clue I'm not understanding? 

Most importantly...Voldy knows theres a prophecy, but he doesn't know all of it...this is why he attempts to kill Harry thus "marking" him and making Harry the subject of the prophecy rather than Neville. Fine. Now Voldy if figuring that he can get the prophecy and find out how to kill Harry. 

1> WHY is Voldy assuming that the prophecy will tell him how he can kill Harry? Seems like a big gamble to me. What am I missing?

The Order doesn't want Voldy to get this "weapon" so they spend so much time guarding it. Podmore is arrested, Arthur almost killed. But 

2> WHY are they bothering? the prophecy DOESN'T tell Voldy how to kill Harry. I dont see Voldy getting ANY benefit from hearing the prophecy. WHAT AM I MISSING?

these two questions are eating at my brain right now. I havent read anything on any other board or mailing list or talked in person with anyone, and it is 7am, so maybe i'm missing something. please help.


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## Crothian (Jun 22, 2003)

It was pretty good, darker then I expected and for a while it was really looking bad.  Luna's a great character and with luck we will be seeing more of her.  Ginney has really changed and given a bigger role as well that I liked.


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## Tsyr (Jun 22, 2003)

I don't need to say Spoilers Ahead, but I will anyhow...








That's good enough.


Getting this out of the way first, the bad, IMO:

Harry in the first 1/3 of his after-muggle scenes in the book. Too tempermental... It just really seemed out of character for him.

The thing with Cho... Ok, sure, you wanna give Harry a fleeting love interest. Fine. WHY CHO? She really doesn't seem like all that great of a prospect, constantly throwing little fits at Harry whenever he mentions Herm... I mean, anyone who had payed attention at Hogwards *knew* they were long-time friends, so why is it a surprise that he still is? (Of course, I have little luck on the romantic front myself, so this might be part of the problem... Expecting common sense and all.  )

The thing with Percy... Either that better get resolved before the end of the series, or we better get an explanation better than "Percy wants to get promoted" for Percy acting, like, well, to quote (or nearly so) Ron, "the biggest git in the world". 

Death of Sirrus. Bah. I liked Sirrus. Sirrus was cool. And his death didn't even have meaning.

The good:

The book in general read very well.

Is it just me, or did this one seem to be less regionalized than they have done with past books? There were a lot more british-isms I noticed in this one.

Developing Neville's character.

Luna (Even if they didn't do much with her)

The "Harry Potter Realed" interview, and the after effects of it.

Seeing the reactions of the entire school to the new rules as they got introduced.

McGonagall. She kicked ass.

Umbridge. Evil as hell or not, she was a great character. Great character. I loved her slipping more and more from the "Hard-hearted semi-evil" Umbridge to the maniac, out-of-control, paranoid, semi-inane, pure evil Umbridge at the end. And I LOVED her fate, and I LOVE that Rowling left it very vauge what happened to her. My mind has invented a number of decidedly Un-Eric's Grandma Friendly (TM) ideas as to her fate... Considering her reaction to the sound of hooves...

Fred and George. Fred and George! Awsome characters! Just awsome. Their exit was amazing, and it showed so much character that they were willing to do what they did... Class clowns or no, they knew they were risking a lot doing that, not just being expelled (Which they didn't care about, of course).

Dumbledor's exit when DA is revealed. Like the painting said... "He has style.". 

Dumbledor at the end.

The D.A.

The portrait of Sirrus' mom. I have relatives that would do that if they could.

The scene where they tried to take Hagrid, and he went berzerk... Even if I most assuredly did not like what happend to McGonagall during that.

Things I'm still trying to figure out my feelings on:

The memory of James Potter as a student. Um... Not how I imagined him. Sirrus' explanation doesn't really mollify that, either.

Hagrid. He just seemed... Off his game this book. Even for him. 

Occlumency... It doesn't seem like a magical art so much as "Let me torture you mentaly and you develop a resistance to it.". But, then, we never really saw much of it, so...


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## drothgery (Jun 22, 2003)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> *I don't need to say Spoilers Ahead, but I will anyhow...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If I'm right, it wasn't revealed in this book, but...

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Arthur, Molly, and Percy faked the falling out between them, either so Percy could keep tabs on Fudge, or so they could nab whoever tries to bring him over to the Dark Side.


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## Piratecat (Jun 22, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> *i... but there was no sense of danger or urgency.
> CoS had people being petrified. PoA had mysteries of Lupin and Sirius, both of were in Hogwart's while someone was up to no good.... OotP has Harry having nightmares and nobody telling him anything. I'm not exactly frightened. I figured with Voldy having a body, the danger factor would be turned up a notch, instead...BAD DREAMS. wtf?*




Hmm. It must not have worked for you. The Big Danger (tm) was Dolores Umbridge (love that name!) and the clear demonstration of what regular people can do to one another when they get scared, petty and power-crazed. This book says that you don't need to be a terrible wizard to ruin peoples' lives. I thought the fact that most of the misery wasn't caused by Voldemort to be quite telling, actually. It echoes the refrain that Voldemort's biggest power is sowing dissent.

I think this was a good choice. Seven books of always focusing on Voldemort would get old, fast. This gives us another villain, and one I think I hate worse!

I too thought that Hagrid wasn't quite on his game in this book. He didn't get any really good scenes. Maybe the pain of the bruises was bothering him.  

It was a delight learning how Trelawny was hired.

I'll buy that Percy and Arthur are in cahoots together, but not Molly. If there is a plan, no one has told her.


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## thatdarncat (Jun 22, 2003)

drothgery said:
			
		

> *
> 
> If I'm right, it wasn't revealed in this book, but...
> 
> I wouldn't be at all surprised if Arthur, Molly, and Percy faked the falling out between them, either so Percy could keep tabs on Fudge, or so they could nab whoever tries to bring him over to the Dark Side. *




That'd be the easy out, the less emotionally charged way to go. What if Percy really is on the splits with his family? What if he really doesn't come back? He can't forgive them for being right while he was wrong. 

He doesn't need to go over to the death eaters to be a villian, as we've seen.


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## Bob Aberton (Jun 22, 2003)

On the subject of James P. & Snape:



> If that was really one of Snape's worst memories... I'm gonna lose all respect for the guy.




Well, I'm torn here...sure, as a one time incident, something like what happened to Snape shouldn't be incredibly bad.  However, it strikes me that what Rowling was trying to show was that Snape really didn't have any friends who actually cared about him, and if J &  S treated him like that every day, for 7 (seven) years, then yeah, I imagine that would make for some pretty bad memories.

Still, with the clips into Snape's memories, Rowling missed a golden opportunity; she could have showed some memories from Snape's time as a Death Eater; you know, show just how bad the Death Eaters can be (and let's face it, in both books the Death Eaters have appeared in, they've made a pretty poor showing of it.  I mean, some of the worst criminals in wizard-dom, and they get beaten first by Harry singlehanded, then by a handful of school children.  And these are some of the worst Dark wizards of their day?), maybe show just what Snape has to go through as a spy; create some more sympathy for the character.

Instead, what you got was pretty much a whiny teenage being picked on by some other teenage punks.  That's really not much of a bad memory, as stevelabny pointed out, or at least it doesn't seem like much of one on the surface...


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## thatdarncat (Jun 22, 2003)

Bob Aberton said:
			
		

> * I mean, some of the worst criminals in wizard-dom, and they get beaten first by Harry singlehanded, then by a handful of school children.  And these are some of the worst Dark wizards of their day?), maybe show just what Snape has to go through as a spy; create some more sympathy for the character.
> *




I wouldn't say Harry and his friends beat the death eaters this time. They stayed alive long enough for wizards from the order to save them, and those wizards took casualties. They were about to be killed, they survived longer than some, maybe most wizards might have, but they knew what they were getting into. They'd been training to fight Death Eaters for months remember. And they barely survived. Besides Harry, who was still active when the rescue came?


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## tleilaxu (Jun 23, 2003)

cross-posted from NKL minus swearwords

Well... finished it last night around 2am. 

Was it better than Potter 4? I'd say no, but it is close to that level. 

For me, HP1 was a funny and interesting story. HP2 was kinda more of the same kids detective stuff, and depended on the formula. It didn't really add much. HP3 was exponentially better than 2. It added all kinds of interesting things and was really interesting. HP4 was to 3 what 3 was to 2. It was a really, really good book, with an awesome ending. 

I'll have to give it a while to sink in, but Order of the Phoenix right now is better than Prisoner of Azkaban but not quite as good as Goblet of Fire. 



The big things in the story, the death of.... 











Sirius Black, and Dumbledore's "now i'm going to tell you everything" were a bit underwhelming for me. Rowling continues to rely on cardboard cutouts for some of the villians in the story. Draco and his stooges continue to be _edit: jerks_ with absolutely no character development over the entire 5 books. Umbridge, uber government _edit: bad woman_, is so evil as to be unbelievable (much like reeta skeeter in HP4). 

Rowling continues with the formula of a series of portants popping up throughout the schoolyear culminating in a big showdown where everything falls into place. 

A lot of the stuff in the first half of the book was kinda wrapping up the missions and other fallout from the end of HP4, with Hagrid only showing up 1/3 into the book. Other intriguing characters from HP4 are largely dropped (Krum gets mentioned, um, twice i believe). No romantic development between Hermione and Ron, and Harry manages to screw things up with _edit: Cho Chang_. 

On the positive side, there is some really excellent character development with Neville, Ginny, Ron, Hermione, Snape, McGonagall, and Sirius. We also get to see the cool Mod Squad wizards. 



your turn


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## Uzumaki (Jun 23, 2003)

I think I always agree with you, Tsyr. Anyway, my comments.



			
				Tsyr said:
			
		

> *Harry in the first 1/3 of his after-muggle scenes in the book. Too tempermental... It just really seemed out of character for him.
> *




No kidding. To me, this was the biggest disappointment of the book. Apparently, only a month has passed between the end of B4 and the beginning of B5 and Harry has had a radical personality change. He's had his blow-ups before, about his parents, the Malfoys, and the time he chucked an anti-Potter badge at Ron, but he was just inexplicably pricky for most of the book. 

I know people are just going to put the whole thing down as 'he's a teenager,' but having your loins awaken doesn't make you a completely different person. However, I did like that Hermione and often Ginny (yay, Ginny!) called him on his crap most of the time.



> *The thing with Cho... Ok, sure, you wanna give Harry a fleeting love interest. Fine. WHY CHO? She really doesn't seem like all that great of a prospect, constantly throwing little fits at Harry whenever he mentions Herm... I mean, anyone who had payed attention at Hogwarts *knew* they were long-time friends, so why is it a surprise that he still is? *




Bugged me, too. Cho has always seemed so nice and together. But she was just biznitchy and weepy here.



> *Death of Sirrus. Bah. I liked Sirrus. Sirrus was cool. And his death didn't even have meaning.*




If he'd had time to utter it, I'm sure his last wish would be that people spelled his name right.  I thought the death was going to be someone else, someone, well, more important. Don't get me wrong, Sirius does kick butt, but... he's never really done anything. He's only been in the third book and this one, and he wasn't in either of them that much. I understand his deep connection with Harry, but I seriously doubt readers are going to be little more than bummed by the loss. 



> *Developing Neville's character. *




Especially with what was revealed at the end. 



> *McGonagall. She kicked ass. *




Boo yah. The more I read, the more I realized how perfect Maggie Smith is for the role. She's gonna have a lot of fun with this installment, should they reach it on the bigscreen.



> *Umbridge. Evil as hell or not, she was a great character. Great character. I loved her slipping more and more from the "Hard-hearted semi-evil" Umbridge to the maniac, out-of-control, paranoid, semi-inane, pure evil Umbridge at the end. And I LOVED her fate, and I LOVE that Rowling left it very vauge what happened to her. My mind has invented a number of decidedly Un-Eric's Grandma Friendly (TM) ideas as to her fate... Considering her reaction to the sound of hooves...*




Eh, I could never really get a feel for her. I wonder who the next DADA teacher will be?



> *Fred and George. Fred and George! Aweome characters! Just awsome. Their exit was amazing, and it showed so much character that they were willing to do what they did... Class clowns or no, they knew they were risking a lot doing that, not just being expelled (Which they didn't care about, of course).*




I'm glad they got more page time. I only hope that they'll show up even though they're no longer Hogwarts students. Not that they would've been after this book. 



> *Dumbledore's exit when DA is revealed. Like the painting said... "He has style.".
> Dumbledore at the end.
> The D.A. *




Amen. Everything Dumbledore. So cool.



> *The scene where they tried to take Hagrid, and he went berzerk... Even if I most assuredly did not like what happend to McGonagall during that.*




Yeah. He may not like to hurt things, but that doesn't mean he won't. Very sweet.


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## WanderingMonster (Jun 23, 2003)

Okay...I _have_ to address the "sudden" temperment change of Harry.  Two months before the opening og OotP he saw YKW reutrn to life, and he saw a schoolmate die.  Now, I don't know how I'd react, but would people think I was overreacting if I got a little moody?

And remember that Harry's _*15*_.  Now, I'm looking way back at 15, so my memories might be foggy, but I do remember being moody, feeling alone, acting self-concious and defensive.  And my nemesis did not just kill a chum of mine (although I know you're out there _Von de Vaanderbaan_!)

Cut Harry some slack, and give JKR some credit.  She wrote her hero as a true teenage boy.

Now...here's what I liked:

1)  Ginny rocks.  She is more of a fireball than we knew!  Definitely Fred and George's sister.

2) Hermione just rules.  "I am feeling a little _rebellious_."  Awesome.

3) Dolores Umbridge is the most evil villain so far.  Hey, when your name means "Hurts" in spanish, you got a lot to overcome.

4) Raise your hand if thestrals are being added to your campaign.

5) McGonagall kicks butt.  How much more respect can I have for this character?

I guess this was the "I am woman..." book.  The heroines came away very strong, and the villainesses very evil.  The guys got their due, and Harry was cool and all,  but the female characters really came out much stronger.  It makes me think that Lilly Potter is going to have a HUGE(r) impact on the story than anyone could have guessed.

For the record, I was convinced Dumbledore was going to die.  I changed my mind many times while reading.


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## Uzumaki (Jun 23, 2003)

I've had friends die before. They weren't close, but probably as close as Harry and Cedric were. When I was 15, a car crash claimed the lives of two friends of mine, and nearly another. I'm best friends with the lone (mostly) unscathed survivor, and also with the older brother of the kid who was comatose for days afterward. (He's fine now.)

When you've come that close to dying yourself, you don't get all pissy and bite people's heads off. Given the circumstances, and also how Harry hasn't been acting like a typical pre-pubescent and pubescent child, it was merely disappointing that he would suffer the personality change, especially since it wasn't really explained. Maybe we're expected to chalk it up to being 15, or being stressed, or whatever other fanwanking, but it shouldn't be counted on.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jun 23, 2003)

I feel a need to step up and defend Harry and Cho.

Some seems to be forgetting that their behavior did not happen in a vacume. Harry was not popping just becuase Cedric died. He was popping becuase he had been cut off from his friends for a month and people - like Umbridge - kept emotionally kicking him in the face, calling him a liar and telling him his grief and pain were unimportant. Change any of those elements and it would be a different story.

Likewise, Cho is a teenage girl. While teenage girls are usually more mature than teenage boys, that is not saying much. They are still addled in the head and apt to be tempermental at the best of times.

And the Durlsey's...

...Is it just me or are they becoming more noxious. At this point, if given a choice between being locked in a room with Tom Riddle (aka Voldemort) or the Durlsey, I would choose Riddle. He at least would be an interesting conversationalist (all Machavalian and Neitchian power and what not, while the Dursley's would just talk about their yard or something).


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## blackshirt5 (Jun 23, 2003)

I have to agree with the Grumpy Celt.  I'd feel the urge to beat the Dursleys until they stopped moving.


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## stevelabny (Jun 23, 2003)

also in defense of Angry!Harry (uh oh, ive officially cross the line into loser-dom, is there any hope?) 

i dont know why people never have caught on to this BUT harry spends the first four books CONSTANTLY saying I HATE YOU, I HATE THIS , I HATE THAT, and wanting to kill things. he has ALWAYS been a very angry, and potentially dangerous.
his use of an unforgiveable at the end of the book is no accident.
this boy is either a> evil or b> will go to the dark side to get more power to defeat voldemort

and although i said i thought Cho was up to something and instead she was just being a dumb teenage girl... thats still perfectly in character...which is to say, we dont really know anything about her character before this book. 

none of the characters are acting out of character.
(althought two days later, i still havent gotten any good answers to my plot-hole question in numerous locations)


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## drothgery (Jun 23, 2003)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> *And the Durlsey's...
> 
> ...Is it just me or are they becoming more noxious. At this point, if given a choice between being locked in a room with Tom Riddle (aka Voldemort) or the Durlsey, I would choose Riddle. He at least would be an interesting conversationalist (all Machavalian and Neitchian power and what not, while the Dursley's would just talk about their yard or something). *




I don't know about that. Riddle has that whole 'guy who's quite likely to kill you for no apparent reason' thing going on. Given a choice between being bored and dead, well, bored has a lot going for it


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## CrazyMage (Jun 23, 2003)

WanderingMonster said:
			
		

> For the record, I was convinced Dumbledore was going to die.  I changed my mind many times while reading. [/B]




I thought perhaps all those warnings to Harry about his temper were leading up to Dumbledore dying because Harry let his anger get the better of him and acted rashly again.  Happy I was wrong because Dumbledore is a great character.


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## Piratecat (Jun 23, 2003)

I had originally expected Dumbledore to be killed - lord knows that there was enough foreshadowing about it. It's fun how Rowling yanked our chains, since we knew someone was going to die; first Arthur Weaselly, then Hagrid, then MaGonagall (sp).  Nicely done.

Did you folks notice the tribute to the DiscWorld books? There's an allusion to a wizard named Ponder Stibbons. Very fun.


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## Samnell (Jun 23, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> i dont know why people never have caught on to this BUT harry spends the first four books CONSTANTLY saying I HATE YOU, I HATE THIS , I HATE THAT, and wanting to kill things. he has ALWAYS been a very angry, and potentially dangerous.
> his use of an unforgiveable at the end of the book is no accident.
> this boy is either a> evil or b> will go to the dark side to get more power to defeat voldemort [/B]




I'm not so sure of that. Consider his failure to perform too. Lestrange was kind enough to even explain it to us. He wanted to stop her, he didn't really want to torture her. I think Harry's basically a good kid under extremely stressful circumstances trying to do the best he can. I would seem to agree with Dumbledore, so I guess I'm in good company there.


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## WanderingMonster (Jun 23, 2003)

I also appreciated how Harry is not "the best" at everything in this book.  He did not become prefect and he didn't win the Quidditch Cup.  Ron got some deserved praise.  Ron's always been kind of a Potsie, so it was nice to see him get some recognition beyond being Harry's best friend.

On that note, are we to believe that the Mirror of Erised's relection of Ron's desires are coming true?  He already won the Quidditch Cup...will he be Head Boy?


Nah...it'll be Malfoy.  Goodness.  And I thought I was a *D&D* nerd.  Yikes!


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## Sparrow (Jun 24, 2003)

I liked it--Harry seems to becoming a teenager, between his moodiness and crushes. I also liked that he wasn't winning everything and that he was less sympathetic in this book. 

Mostly, I'm curious about the backstory questions that Order of the Phoenix raised rather than answered. 
What happened to deflate James Potter's ego?
How did Lily Evans actually start to like J. Potter?
How/when did Snape join the death eaters, why and when did he leave? And doesn't Voldemort know that Snape has betrayed him?

I'm also really keen to know how Harry deals with Snape in the next two books. Snape seems to be right in Harry's blindspot, always perceived as evil because he looks so evil--even though he seems to tirelessly work for Harry's safety. With Dumbledore's exhortations for trust and friendship at the end of the fourth book, the fifth book being about politics and nasty infighting among the good guys, Harry's continuing hatred of Snape seems pretty significant.


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## kengar (Jun 24, 2003)

I liked it a lot. Better than 4 IMO, but then I had relatives in town all weekend and didn't get a chance to read it and finish until 5 AM (read thru all night  ). I may change my mind after digesting a bit.

I think JKR does a good job of showing teens and how they act. I've always been impressed at her ability to write "true to age." The characters change as they go through adolescence.

That said, things I liked:

Cho & Harry: He's had a crush for what? 2 years now? It's about time something happened. And I think Cho's emotional insecurities and outburst are very plausible for the situation: She liked Harry, but Cedric asked her out first. Cedric was a hunk and treated her nice. Cedric & Harry disappear, Cedric gets killed and Harry reappears in front of her (and everyone else) with Cedric's corpse. This is traumatic stuff for a teenage girl (or anyone for that matter). I also think a lot of the things that happened to Harry at the end of 4 explain his moodiness at the start of 5 quite well. I also like the idea that their relationship might be over. That's how school crushes go sometimes.

Ron & Hermione. Very believable, more mature but the same people. I wish a bit more of their relationship had been covered, but hey; maybe next book. Them being prefects, Ron on the team, etc. All good to me.

Umbridge. Man oh man! You just HAD to hate her!

Neville. I always like it when minor characters are fleshed out.

McGonagall was cool. She didn't leap off the page at me the way she did for some other people (by the looks of some posts above), but she was cool.

Fred & George. Not for their spectacular exit (& it was spectacular), but for the fact that they took control of their lives and made things happen.

Things I wasn't wowed by:

Dumbledore. I appreciated JKR's attempt to explain some of what he was thinking & doing during the past few years, but it didn't manage to ring true for me. I also have a pet peeve for _deus ex machina_ characters that seem to never lose. It's like the old cartoon "Voltron"; if the robot shows up, the good guys win: end of story. He's too powerful to be interesting to me.

Occlumency: was interesting to see Snape & Harry one on one like that, but the whole thing was poorly structured to me.

Where the heck was Malfoy!?! I mean, I know he shows up now & again and is snide, etc. But he should've been a major thorn in Harry, Ron & Hermione's side all year. He was a Death Eaters son and a prefect and he was hardly an issue (off the Quidditch field) until "Martial Law" was declared.

I think the sleep-dep is making me ramble worse than usual. I'll cut this off now but I repeat: Great Book! Enjoyed it a lot.


----------



## blackshirt5 (Jun 24, 2003)

One thing I was thinking on today was this:
Dumbledore didn't want to risk teaching Harry Occlumency himself in case You-Know-Who was watching.  What about Snape?  Presumably, they want YKW to think that Snape is still loyal to him; how would it look if he were to see through Harry's eyes and realize that Snape is teaching Harry to resist Voldemort's mind?


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## Sparrow (Jun 24, 2003)

blackshirt5, I was thinking the same thing. I think that's why Snape got so angry in the second lesson, when Harry started thinking about the Dept. of Mysteries--it possibly exposed Snape to Voldemort....


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## blackshirt5 (Jun 24, 2003)

A bit of an off topic, but for those who've seen both Dogma and the Harry Potter movies, does anyone else picture Snape spilling some potion on his robe, grabbing the edge of Hermione's robe, licking it and trying to wipe away the potion, muttering "It Never Ends!"?


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## kengar (Jun 24, 2003)

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> *A bit of an off topic, but for those who've seen both Dogma and the Harry Potter movies, does anyone else picture Snape spilling some potion on his robe, grabbing the edge of Hermione's robe, licking it and trying to wipe away the potion, muttering "It Never Ends!"? *





uhhhh....

...no


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## Look_a_Unicorn (Jun 25, 2003)

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> *A bit of an off topic, but for those who've seen both Dogma and the Harry Potter movies, does anyone else picture Snape spilling some potion on his robe, grabbing the edge of Hermione's robe, licking it and trying to wipe away the potion, muttering "It Never Ends!"? *




Could they have picked a cooler acter to play Snape? I think not 

Loved the 5th book- JK Rowling is definitely letting her "children's author" title slide though. I'm not complaining whatsoever- after all, most kids who wuuld read the series would have started already & are now thoroughly hooked on that perfect drug, literature.

I'm not sure what you guys think of Fan Fiction, but Cassandra Claire (talented lass who wrote the Very Secret Diaries) has done some brilliant Harry Potter fan fiction (written before book 5 came out, so some events couldn't have happened)- but VERY well written. I wonder if JK Rowling utilises C.C's "historical" references... check it out. (PS- it's about the size of a middling length trilogy, say Dragonlance)
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Cassandra_Claire/


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Jun 25, 2003)

I'm going to have to say I rather liked the angry, moody, outburst-prone Harry.  Honestly, I think he's been a bit blase about some of the stuff that's happened to him in the last four books.  Then Voldemort returns, kills Cedric, and nearly kills Harry, and then's he stuck with the relatives from hell for a month with no contact from his own friends...

I'm honestly surprised he hasn't started blowing up sooner.  The kid has successfully fought down Voldemort once, saving the sorcerer's stone, faced him down again in spirit form, killed a basilisk and rescued Ginny, fought over a hundred dementors, went through the many trials of the Triwizard Tournament, and all before unwillingly participating in the raising of Lord Voldemort and the death of one of his classmates.  And up until this book, he's been mostly in the dark about the meaning of it all.  He's not a child, yet people insist on treating him like one.  I'm glad Dumbledore told all; Harry deserved it a long time ago.


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## Crothian (Jun 25, 2003)

So, for over 4 years Snape has really wanted the Defensae of the Drak Arts job.  Book 5 comes along and Dumbledore can't find anyone to fill the posistion?  Shouldn't somebody have wondered whjy Snape didn't get or even seem to want the job all of a sudden?


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## drothgery (Jun 25, 2003)

If there isn't a very good reason for Dumbledore failing to give the Defense Against the Dark Arts job to Snape[1], whether he wants it or not, I'll be very disappointed with Rowling. The man's not very likeable, but he is on the right side, and he's more than competent.

[1] Potions experts being difficult to find is not good enough. A poor potions teacher hurts the students a lot less than a poor Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher.


----------



## Viking Bastard (Jun 25, 2003)

Maybe potion-making gets a lot more practical use than the DAtDA courses?


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## kkoie (Jun 25, 2003)

Wow what a great book! I couldn't put it down... how I wish the next one takes only a year to write, but I'm betting it will be about as long a wait as this last one.  Who knows...


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## blackshirt5 (Jun 25, 2003)

Actually, IIRC it took so long to bring this book out because somebody slapped her with a lawsuit claiming that they created the HP characters and story, and that she just ripped off it.


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## kengar (Jun 25, 2003)

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> *Actually, IIRC it took so long to bring this book out because somebody slapped her with a lawsuit claiming that they created the HP characters and story, and that she just ripped off it. *




I thought it was because of her time-commitment to the films.


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## drothgery (Jun 25, 2003)

kengar said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I thought it was because of her time-commitment to the films. *




That, and that Order of the Phoenix is 870 pages long (at least in the US hardcover).

I'd feel really guilty about giving a ten-year-old a copy of Sorcerer's Stone; a pre-teen can probably handle the first three books, but I can't imagine there are many people who would finish a book the size of Goblet of Fire or Order of the Phoenix before high school.


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## kengar (Jun 25, 2003)

drothgery said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That, and that Order of the Phoenix is 870 pages long (at least in the US hardcover).
> 
> I'd feel really guilty about giving a ten-year-old a copy of Sorcerer's Stone; a pre-teen can probably handle the first three books, but I can't imagine there are many people who would finish a book the size of Goblet of Fire or Order of the Phoenix before high school. *




Just because a high proportion of the people on this thread are nutty enough to stay up all night reading to finish it in a sitting doesn't mean one HAS to.  I think a chapter or two per night of OoPh is quite do-able by an 11-12 year old. It may take them a couple weeks to finish, but there's nothing wrong with that.


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## Tsyr (Jun 25, 2003)

I was assigned The Hobbit for a book report in 4th grade, and read LotR of my own volition in 6th...

There are a lot of kids out there that read a lot better than a lot of people give them credit for.

Of course, granted, I also knew plenty of people who, in highschool, still had to sound out very simple words.

*shrug*


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## drothgery (Jun 25, 2003)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> *I was assigned The Hobbit for a book report in 4th grade, and read LotR of my own volition in 6th...
> 
> There are a lot of kids out there that read a lot better than a lot of people give them credit for.*




I'm just thinking that anyone who starts the series after Rowling finishes it would try to read all seven in the same year, and that lots of kids who'd have no trouble with Sorcerer's Stone would never get through Order of the Phoenix. While each book is presumably targetted at someone Harry's age in that book, there's a huge jump in length and complexity between Prisoner of Azkhban and Goblet of Fire.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jun 26, 2003)

"Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix"?

Blink. Blink.

I read "Harry Potter Goes to Phoenix."

"...the desert sun shone like a golden snitch..."

(Giggles)

But seriosuly, folks, I read where the next DAtDA teacher is going to be the most violent, rude, mercurial, vindictive, useless and hated teacher to date. Yes, a teacher worse than Umbridge.

Apparently, Rowling is having an American teach the course in the next book and he invades Harry's room looking for Spells of Mass Destruction.

(Giggles and bounces away making “woo-woohoo-woo” noises.)


----------



## Tsyr (Jun 26, 2003)

Thank you for turning a discussion of a children's book into a political one...


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## Piratecat (Jun 26, 2003)

No politics here, please. Thanks!


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## Uzumaki (Jun 27, 2003)

kengar said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I thought it was because of her time-commitment to the films. *




No, she was too busy getting pregnant.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Jun 27, 2003)

Uzumaki said:
			
		

> *
> 
> No, she was too busy getting pregnant. *




Busy?!?!?

Then they weren't doing something right.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Jun 27, 2003)

So, I just finished the book about a half-hour ago.  Some thoughts, curiously fragmented (possible spoilers, but it says so in the thread title, so no lame spaces):

The "OK Corral Gunfight" at the Ministry was just wicked cool.  I swear on a stack of bibles, I actually yelled, "YES!" and made the devil-horn hand salute in the middle of the breakroom at work when I got to the part where Dumbledore made his entrance, blowing away Death Eaters left and right.  Was anyone else thinking "This is gonna look bitchin' in the movie version".

Umbridge may have been a walking cliche, but she was still nasty.  I had a teacher like this once in sixth grade; he just seemed to get off on humiliating children.  I think if he'd been allowed to hit us, he probably would have.  So I guess that made her a little more believable to me than some of you found her.

Harry was sure sullen, wasn't he?  Still though, I know lots of teenagers who are less well-adjusted than him who don't also bear the burden of Savior of the World.

The Cho romance angle left me a little cold, I wish more would have happened in the end.  I guess it points up what happens when boys don't have strong father figures growing up.  Harry really didn't seem to know his you-know-what from a hole in the ground, did he?  Hell, I needed a father AND a stepfather to make sense out of women for me when I was growing up, and I've totally got that down now  

Hermione was great, Ginny was even moreso.  Love how these characters are developing.

Fred and George, and especially their escape from Hogwarts, were the best thing about this book.  I hope they stay close to the story, they just have a neat attitude and reaction to all the grimness in their lives.

If I've gotta wait 3 years for the next book, I ... I don't know what I'll do.  Something awful, like an Unforgivable Curse.


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## jasper (Jun 27, 2003)

870 pages please! I tick off a librarian when I was 12.
She didn't believe I went thru 9 Alfred Hichcock and Three investigators books and Hardy Boys. They average 170+ pages.  Pick them up at the Gunter library just after 9 a.m.  Monday and return Wednesday just after 1300.  
She didn't believe and gave that adult look to my dad. They gave another adult look when I starte rattling off the high pts of each book. 
Of course it was Summer and no friends lived nearby.


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## Samnell (Jun 27, 2003)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> The Cho romance angle left me a little cold, I wish more would have happened in the end.  I guess it points up what happens when boys don't have strong father figures growing up.  Harry really didn't seem to know his you-know-what from a hole in the ground, did he?[/B]




I always thought Harry's attraction to Cho was purely physical (like most first crushes are) so I wasn't surprised when it fell apart.


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## Pylar (Jun 28, 2003)

> Mostly, I'm curious about the backstory questions that Order of the Phoenix raised rather than answered.
> 
> What happened to deflate James Potter's ego?





I think we've already been given the awnser to that question.  Remember in PoA we find out that Snape was following James and his friends, and James tricks snape into following them on a night when Lupus is changing into a werewolf.  That course of action almost gets Snape killed. I think James relized what he almost happened and caused him to grow up.


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## Dinkeldog (Jun 29, 2003)

Dolores Umbridge:

dolorous umbrage

offense or resentment marked by or exhibiting sorrow, grief, or pain.

Seemed like a great name to me.


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## Dinkeldog (Jun 29, 2003)

I kind of expect the 7th book to end in a Harry and Neville combined effort that destroys Voldemort in a Thomas Covenant sort of way.


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## thatdarncat (Jun 29, 2003)

Pylar said:
			
		

> *
> James tricks snape into following them on a night when Lupus is changing into a werewolf.  *




I thought James saved Snape, and Sirius was responsible for tricking him.

oh, and Dinkledog, I've blocked all memories of the Thomas Covenant books. *shudder*


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jun 29, 2003)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> *...Harry and Neville combined effort that destroys Voldemort... *




I don't know that Neville will have much of a helping hand in undoing Moldymort (pppbbbttt) as I suspect that must come down to just Harry and Lord Grumpypants.

However, I do really hope Neville is able to dissassemble the woman (I forget her nameand do not have the book handy) who broke his parents and illledkay Irussay. That would be very fitting.

I really liked the way he was handled in this book. I had to admire that fighting spirit that he showed. I hope his grandmother appreciated what he did.

And Umbridge struck close to home for me. In my fourth grade, my teacher was always promising the entire class things and then taking them away from the class and telling the class she thought we were all stupid and must want to fail. There were otehr terrible teachers I had but this is not the forum to get into that.


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## WanderingMonster (Jun 29, 2003)

*



			However, I do really hope Neville is able to dissassemble the woman (I forget her nameand do not have the book handy) who broke his parents and illledkay Irussay. That would be very fitting.
		
Click to expand...


*
That would be Bellatrix Lestrange, Sirius' cousin.  Yeah, Neville deserves a shot at her.  

*



			I thought James saved Snape, and Sirius was responsible for tricking him.
		
Click to expand...


*
This is correct.  Sirius really thought it'd be funny if Snape walked in on Lupin on a changing night.  Ha ha.  James, however, thought better of it.  This may be the point where James Potter goes from arrogant teen to not-so-arrogant-teen.

On a tangent, I'm betting we find out that Sirius was a Slytherin.  It just fits.  There's the whole Legacy thing (did you catch that Phineas Nigellus (Sirius' great-great-grandfather) was wearing silver and green?  And besides, Sirius really seems to approach things from a very self-centered point fo view.  This will be important when the houses have to unite to save the school. (Harry: "How can we cooperate with Slytherin? They're all evil!"  Lupin:  "Harry, your father's best friend was a Slytherin."  Mark my words.)   I'm guessing that each of the Marauders was from a different house.

Enough crackpot theories for now.


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## Dinkeldog (Jun 29, 2003)

WanderingMonster said:
			
		

> *
> 
> On a tangent, I'm betting we find out that Sirius was a Slytherin.  It just fits.  There's the whole Legacy thing (did you catch that Phineas Nigellus (Sirius' great-great-grandfather) was wearing silver and green?  And besides, Sirius really seems to approach things from a very self-centered point fo view.  This will be important when the houses have to unite to save the school. (Harry: "How can we cooperate with Slytherin? They're all evil!"  Lupin:  "Harry, your father's best friend was a Slytherin."  Mark my words.)   I'm guessing that each of the Marauders was from a different house.
> 
> Enough crackpot theories for now.  *




I don't think so.  I think they were all Gryffindor.  Lupin was chosen out of the group to be the prefect because Dumbledore thought he could exert a calming influence on James and Sirius.  Phineas (the Slytherin former Headmaster) thought Sirius was a waste, and Sirius wanted nothing to do with his family's legacy, remember.

I'll be interested to see if Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle are at school for Year 6.  

So what's up with the O.W.L.s?  Didn't the D.A. leave before Harry and crew even finished them all?


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## Mathew_Freeman (Jun 29, 2003)

Loved the book, really thoroughly enjoyed it.

Maggie Smith must be rubbing her hands together and wondering about Best Supporter Actress nominations...


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## WanderingMonster (Jun 29, 2003)

Tallarn said:
			
		

> *Loved the book, really thoroughly enjoyed it.
> 
> Maggie Smith must be rubbing her hands together and wondering about Best Supporter Actress nominations... *




I'm sure she'll give a stunning performance


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## KidCthulhu (Jun 30, 2003)

Personally, I always thought Cho was kind of a waste of space, and wasn't surprised the whole thing fell apart.  It was a early adolescent crush, and Harry's attraction to her had nothing to do with who she is or who he is.  Clearly he wasn't mature enough to understand her, and she wasn't mature enough to understand him.  It seem to me like she was expecting Harry to be both her sounding board for her grief about Cedric and the guy who would make it all better.  Not to many 15 year old boys who can handle that, especially from a girl that they haven't really gotten to know.

I loved the way the adults in the world suddenly came into their own.  When you're 10, adults are all just cyphers.  Nice and not-nice, fun and grumpy.  But by the time you're 15, you can understand that adults have their own motivations and their own sorrows.  Two people you love can dislike each other, and both still be there for you (Mrs. Weasly and Sirius).

This book was better written than any of the others I thought.  I've always found Rowling to be a great storyteller and a not very good writer.  I'm beginning to think that her poor sentence structure and akward phrasing may have been due to her writing down to the 10 and 11 year old age group, and that now that she's writing for a more mature audience, her style is less crimped.


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## Shadoe's Lady (Jul 1, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> And worst of all...the prophecy. First, it even repeats itself. Why does it say TWICE that the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord will be born as the secenth month dies. Is this a clue I'm not understanding?
> 
> Most importantly...Voldy knows theres a prophecy, but he doesn't know all of it...this is why he attempts to kill Harry thus "marking" him and making Harry the subject of the prophecy rather than Neville. Fine. Now Voldy if figuring that he can get the prophecy and find out how to kill Harry.
> 
> ...




Well, it's a prophecy, it's not exactly supposed to make sense 

In answer to first question: I think he's just looking for any info he can get his hands on.  He's already marginally unhinged, so not being able to get his hands on the prophecy probably drove him over the edge.  Sometimes the thing you can't have becomes more attractive simply because of its unavailability.

Answer to second: To make it look more important than it is in the hopes of attracting LV so they can give him the smackdown.  Or, basically, they weren't so much guarding the thing as setting up watch hoping to catch him.

Those are my guesses.  The "weapon" was never a sure thing, it was a supposition.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Jul 1, 2003)

Originally posted by stevelabny 
*1> WHY is Voldy assuming that the prophecy will tell him how he can kill Harry? Seems like a big gamble to me. What am I missing?

The Order doesn't want Voldy to get this "weapon" so they spend so much time guarding it. Podmore is arrested, Arthur almost killed. But 

2> WHY are they bothering? the prophecy DOESN'T tell Voldy how to kill Harry. I dont see Voldy getting ANY benefit from hearing the prophecy. WHAT AM I MISSING?

these two questions are eating at my brain right now. I havent read anything on any other board or mailing list or talked in person with anyone, and it is 7am, so maybe i'm missing something. please help. *

As far as I can ascertain, it tells Voldemort exactly what it tells Harry: That they are the only ones who can destroy the other one.


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## Shadoe's Lady (Jul 2, 2003)

drothgery said:
			
		

> *If there isn't a very good reason for Dumbledore failing to give the Defense Against the Dark Arts job to Snape[1], whether he wants it or not, I'll be very disappointed with Rowling. The man's not very likeable, but he is on the right side, and he's more than competent.
> 
> [1] Potions experts being difficult to find is not good enough. A poor potions teacher hurts the students a lot less than a poor Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher. *




Not giving Snape the job again (and again and again) might help Snape's cover.  If he looks like he's on Dumbledore's good side then it makes him look...well...good.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 2, 2003)

Overall, I really enjoyed this book.  The final battle kicks!  Fred & George kick!  Professor McGonagall kicks!  Bellatrix Lestrange kicks (even if I pictured her as a lame goth wanna-be)!  Hermione kicks--leading Umbridge to her death!  (Didn't know you had it in you, Granger [Barendd Nobeard wipes a tear of joy from his eye])  Ron kicks! _Weasley is our King..._  And I can't wait to see Neville kill Bellatrix in the final book.  Oh yes, our boy will do us proud; I'm sure of it!

But I have to ask myself:  Has Harry learned *nothing* since starting at Hogwarts?  Every novel has him deliberately decided not to tell Dumbledore about something, which everyone can plainly see has significance.  For example, Harry doesn't tell him about the diary (or being a parsel-tongue) in *CoS*.  Then, in this book, he doesn't tell him that Umbridge is torturing him during detention.  I don't think Dumbledore would stand for the physical torture of the students, and Harry is an idiot for not reporting Umbridge when it happens.  I don't buy Rowlings "he's too stubborn to give Umbridge the satisfaction of complaining" reasoning.

I think I have just switched sides and I am now rooting for Voldemort.  Harry's too stupid to live.

I also don't think the parents of Hogwarts' students would put up with whippings being allowed, though they may not have been informed of that yet.  Sounds like the kind of thing Umbridge would just declare on the spot, to get Fred and George.

And Rowling cried when she wrote the death of S.B.?  Why?  It was a total waste and not very meaningful.  J.K., get some happy pills from the local shrink, you need 'em, honey!  I was pissed (mentaly Raging, actually) when I thought Arthur Weasley was gonna die, and even more angry (Frenzied Berserker angry) when I thought it would be McGonagall.  And after all that, we get Sirius falling through an arch?  Yawn.  Good riddance to a "great wizard" who couldn't see the danger his own house elf provided.


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## drothgery (Jul 2, 2003)

Shadoe's Lady said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Not giving Snape the job again (and again and again) might help Snape's cover.  If he looks like he's on Dumbledore's good side then it makes him look...well...good. *




What's more important, Snape's cover or a generation of British wizards finishing school with about one good year of defensive magic training?


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## KidCthulhu (Jul 2, 2003)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> *But I have to ask myself:  Has Harry learned nothing since starting at Hogwarts?  *




I gotta agree with you on that.  I don't mind Harry being stupid occasionally, but he's now been stupid in the same way for five books.  In every book, something happens, and everyone around him says "Go tell Dumbledore", and Harry says "No" and he suffers as a result.  You'd think he'd learn by now.


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## Shadoe's Lady (Jul 2, 2003)

drothgery said:
			
		

> *
> 
> What's more important, Snape's cover or a generation of British wizards finishing school with about one good year of defensive magic training? *




But would they actually get good training from him?  His private lessons with Harry didn't go well.


----------



## Samnell (Jul 2, 2003)

KidCthulhu said:
			
		

> *I gotta agree with you on that.  I don't mind Harry being stupid occasionally, but he's now been stupid in the same way for five books.  In every book, something happens, and everyone around him says "Go tell Dumbledore", and Harry says "No" and he suffers as a result.  You'd think he'd learn by now. *




I think Harry has issues about being perceived as weak. He usually thinks about telling Dumbledore, but seems to have some feeling that he'd lose face if he did. Living a life where he's been treated as brutally inadequate in all things with the Durseleys could bring on something like that. 

For ten years all Harry heard is that he was worthless and useless and a burden. Then enter the wizarding world and he's a hero. I don't think Harry's actively egotistical about it, but the sudden, precious news that he had worth is something he's not willing to part with and he perceives immediately going to Dumbledore to solve his problems as a sign of unworthiness. He feels he has to live up to his fame in order to have value as a person.


----------



## Samnell (Jul 2, 2003)

Shadoe's Lady said:
			
		

> *
> 
> But would they actually get good training from him?  His private lessons with Harry didn't go well. *




I've generally gotten the impression Snape isn't a very great teacher period. Except for villain of the book teachers, Hogwarts instructors seem to be very involved in lab like environments and generally relatively supportive of their students' efforts. They might still be strict like MacGonagall, but I can't see Snape being supportive of anyone. His favoritism for Slitherin is more petty adolescent grudges made manifest than any genuine feelings of good will. 

I'm sure he's very competent at making potions (and probably Dark Arts too) but he seems to view the job as mostly a chance to heap abuse on less favored students to gratify his own ego. You're probably right that DADA lessons from Snape would go just like Occlumency did.


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## Storminator (Jul 2, 2003)

I thought it was a very satisfying book, too bad I got in late on the discussion.

I LOVED Harry's portayal in OotP. My son is 15, and it read so true. The poorly handled frustration, which goes wrong wether bottled up or released, the fundamental incompetence with girls, the shock of a heavy course load, the bitching at friends, the irrational outbursts... I've seen it all this year. Rowling really writes to the age of Harry brilliantly.

Umbridge was classic. Slowly insinuating her way in to Hogwarts, thoroughly hateable, not a Death Eater, she's a great change-up villian.

After Sirius died in the big battle, I was still trying to figure out which character was going to die. LOL! I thought it was cleverly done. The repercussions of his death seemed to stretch out a long time, and I thought that added depth to the grief scenes. 

I thought Dumbledore's explanation was a great way to cover the fact that you can't say your main character has to kill or be killed in a kids story. It's only once the readers grow up that the characters become old enough to learn the truth. 

PS


----------



## Caliban (Jul 3, 2003)

I'm sure a good bit of Harry's temper can be attributed to puberty, but I think something more might be at work as well. 

On page 383 of the book, harry is studying Potions, and reads this passage: 







> "_These plantes are moste efficious in the inflaming of the braine, and are therefore much used in Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts, where the wizard is desirous of producing hot-headedness and recklessness..._"




He reads the passage a couple of times.   I think it might be a bit of foreshadowing that will be explained in a later book: someone has been slipping Harry a potion to make him more volatile and reckless.


----------



## WanderingMonster (Jul 3, 2003)

I read on the Chamber of Secrets Forums, a theory that add fuel to the _"inflaming of the braine"_ passage that Caliban mentions: Luna Lovegood.

If I'm not mistaken, the passage related to the uses of moonstone as a calmative in poitons.  Monnstone...Luna...Moon...Harry needs calming...eh? Eh?


----------



## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 3, 2003)

KidCthulhu said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I gotta agree with you on that.  I don't mind Harry being stupid occasionally, but he's now been stupid in the same way for five books.  In every book, something happens, and everyone around him says "Go tell Dumbledore", and Harry says "No" and he suffers as a result.  You'd think he'd learn by now. *



Of course, this probably means that in book 6 Harry *will* go to Dumbledore, with tragic results.  

Which lets him *not* go to Dumbledore again in book 7, with even worse results.  Like Snape is appointed new Headmaster of Hogwarts.


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## Caliban (Jul 3, 2003)

I found this horribly amusing for some reason:

http://forums.keenspace.com/viewtopic.php?t=52086



> "Hi. My name is Harry Potter. I'm only 16 years old, but I'm being hunted by the most evil person ever known, who's been trying to kill me since I was a baby. He's made an attempt on my life each year since I was 11, not counting the attempt to kill me in my crib.
> 
> "When I'm not defending my life against assasination attempts, I try to learn magic at Hogwarts Academy. My instructors range from Quirky to grossly incompitant. In my spare time, I like to play a game where the equipment has been known to maim and kill against teams who are encouraged to commit fouls, especially fatal ones. I have an uncanny knack for creating enemies at school, despite being dreadfully famous.
> 
> ...


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## Mistwell (Jul 4, 2003)

Caliban said:
			
		

> *I'm sure a good bit of Harry's temper can be attributed to puberty, but I think something more might be at work as well.
> 
> On page 383 of the book, harry is studying Potions, and reads this passage:
> 
> He reads the passage a couple of times.   I think it might be a bit of foreshadowing that will be explained in a later book: someone has been slipping Harry a potion to make him more volatile and reckless. *




I came to the exact same conclusion when reading the book, and was waiting and waiting for them to discover that he had been slowly drugged.  In fact, I thought that would happen in a scene with Snape - another thing I was waiting for (Harry and Snape finally calling a truce and making up).  Maybe it is waiting for the next book - and maybe not.

I really loved this one.  My favorite new character was Luna.  I suspect Harry will end up with her (crazy as that sounds).


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 4, 2003)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> *My favorite new character was Luna.  I suspect Harry will end up with her (crazy as that sounds). *



I liked Luna, too.  And while I think Harry may date her, in the end I fear that Rowling will put him with someone else.  Or he'll be dead.


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## jaldaen (Jul 4, 2003)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> *I liked Luna, too.  And while I think Harry may date her, in the end I fear that Rowling will put him with someone else.  Or he'll be dead. *




All I have to say on this is... It has got to be Ginny! She's perfect for Harry!

That is all... move along...


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## Shadoe's Lady (Jul 4, 2003)

I think Luna was interested in Ron.

Weasley is her king, baby!


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## Elemental (Jul 5, 2003)

WanderingMonster said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That would be Bellatrix Lestrange, Sirius' cousin.  Yeah, Neville deserves a shot at her.
> *



*

For some reason, this brings the end of "Dune" to mind. "Mi'lord, you promised me a Death Eater."*


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## Gez (Jul 9, 2003)

The most "kid's book-esque" thing in HP is the name of second-role characters, names that tell what these characters are. Sometimes it requires to be a little learned in other languages (Luna: moon in Latin and Spanish; Lestrange: "theweird" in old French...).


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## Shadoe's Lady (Jul 9, 2003)

Gez said:
			
		

> *The most "kid's book-esque" thing in HP is the name of second-role characters, names that tell what these characters are. Sometimes it requires to be a little learned in other languages (Luna: moon in Latin and Spanish; Lestrange: "theweird" in old French...). *




That's the thing I love, though.  Like being in on the joke.


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## WizarDru (Aug 12, 2003)

Well, a month after the last post, here I am.  I actually finished the book a couple of weeks ago, but hadn't thought to post here until then.

My trauma, of course, was that my wife had this thread up on the screen one evening, just before I started the book, with the Sirius spoiler up on the screen.  Ah, well.

General Review: possibly the best book in the series, easily one of the best of an excellent series.  A real page-turner that was hard to put down, and too easy to pick back up.


Specific Thoughts:  Rowlings writes for her audience, and writes for them well.  She portrays them very accurately (if perhaps they curse a little less) and I found them all *very* believable.  

We get excellent new characters, a fine returning cast, and characters that we hadn't seen for a while coming back.  Secondary characters get much more attention, and the cohesive whole is cemented together well.

Cho and Harry may get back together...or they may not.  Personally, I think Harry will eventually end up with Ginny.  No one else can understand Harry's situation as much as she can (quick show of hands...who here has been dominated by Voldemort?).  She's coming into her own as both an independent character, a Weasley and a Gryffindor.  She's also more self-confident, and no longer afraid to speak her mind.  The ability to see Harry as an equal, and have Harry do the same is important.

JKR plays her audience like a fiddle in some points...such as Ron's apparent death at the House of Black.    I liked how she modifies her formula by little bits each time out, but still manages a pattern.  Some see this as a hack, I see it as consistency.  YMMV.

We now have 3 characters who are intimately related to Harry in interesting ways.  Ginny, Neville and Snape all are tied to Harry in different ways that parallel him.  The revelation that Neville is so closely tied to Harry's future and past was welcome...as was Neville's growing resolve.   Sooner or later, you stop being scared and start being angry, and that's where he is, now.  Ginny is the only person who can understand some of Harry's worries/feelings, as she's the only one who can truly understand what it is to be used directly by Voldemort.  

And then there's Snape.  

Severus is quite an interesting character.  All at once a foil for our hero and unliked ally, he is, in many ways, the closest to Harry's situation.  Let's look at some comparisons:

Unhappy childhood: We see a flash of the unhappy Snape home.  Shouting and abuse.  Parents who probably have little love for their son.
An outcast: Obviously not popular or rich, young Snape is target for bullies, and has no friends.  Clearly torn between wanting to be accepted and being his own person, young Snape is labelled and trapped.  Awkward, not handsome and alone.
Expectations: Everyone thinks they know or understand Snape, even after they're proven wrong.  They are willing to believe what they want to believe, regardless of the truth.
Marked by Voldemort: Bearing a symbol he cannot remove, that everyone immediately recognizes.  While not exposed like Harry's symbol, his causes him pain and is a tragic reminder of an unpleasant past.

I suspect we'll find out more about Snape that will continue to reveal things about him.  It's interesting to note that among the death eaters mentioned, we never hear about Snapes parents.  I suspect he may have watched them die at Voldemort's hand, or perhaps he killed them himself (though I strongly suspect the former).  In many ways, Snape represents the 'road-less-travelled' that Harry could have taken.  He's an object lesson to what happens when you let your emotions rule you, the way Harry has been letting himself do too much lately.

Biggest thing that I was waiting for that didn't happen: Ron and Hermione doing more than scowling at each other.  Shouldn't there have been another formal dance this year?  I was suprised at it's absence.

The grudging revelation that Harry's aunt insisted they take him in was intriguing, even as it was odd.  Very believable, but complicated.  And that was one of the things I most liked in this book...the adults become much more defined, as Harry becomes more able to understand them.  

And let's be honest, the showdown in the Ministry rocked on toast.  Especially to see Dumbledore open up a can.  

And if you think I accept that Sirius is dead AND gone, you'd best think again.  I don't buy it, not for a second.  Either he gets rescued or he becomes a ghost.  Dead?  I'll wait and see.  Of course, I'm interested in what that thing was?  Execution device or way to investigate the afterlife?  VERY odd that no one wanted to really discuss it.

All in all, the worst thing about the book is that it ended, and we have to wait for a long time for the next one.


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## Storm Raven (Aug 12, 2003)

Shadoe's Lady said:
			
		

> *But would they actually get good training from him?  His private lessons with Harry didn't go well.*




I think that is probably true. Snape seems to be a skilled wizard, but a mediocre teacher.


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## thatdarncat (Aug 12, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *Biggest thing that I was waiting for that didn't happen: Ron and Hermione doing more than scowling at each other.  Shouldn't there have been another formal dance this year?  I was suprised at it's absence.
> *




That would have happened over Christmas while they were visiting Mr Weasly in the hospital. Lucky Harry missed out on it this year!


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## Barendd Nobeard (Aug 14, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *And if you think I accept that Sirius is dead AND gone, you'd best think again.  I don't buy it, not for a second.  Either he gets rescued or he becomes a ghost.  Dead?  I'll wait and see.  Of course, I'm interested in what that thing was?  Execution device or way to investigate the afterlife?  VERY odd that no one wanted to really discuss it.*



I don't think Sirius will become a ghost.  I only read the book once (before my daughter absconded with it for her five-week trip to another time zone), but doesn't Harry talk to Nearly Headless Nick about the possibility of Sirius coming back as a ghost?  And the way Nick explained it, it seemed *very* unlikely that it could happen for Sirius.

Of course, I may have imagined that scene....


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## WizarDru (Aug 14, 2003)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> *I don't think Sirius will become a ghost.  I only read the book once (before my daughter absconded with it for her five-week trip to another time zone), but doesn't Harry talk to Nearly Headless Nick about the possibility of Sirius coming back as a ghost?  And the way Nick explained it, it seemed very unlikely that it could happen for Sirius.
> 
> Of course, I may have imagined that scene.... *




Ah yes, you're right.  I forget exactly why, but apparently only wizards can come back as ghosts, it's not really a very satisfactory experience...and I think some specific reason was given why Sirius probably wouldn't become a ghost.  I had forgotten that.


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## Sirius_Black (Aug 14, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Ah yes, you're right.  I forget exactly why, but apparently only wizards can come back as ghosts, it's not really a very satisfactory experience...and I think some specific reason was given why Sirius probably wouldn't become a ghost.  I had forgotten that. *




**
Page 861 when Harry talks to Nearly Headless Nick

"Wizards can leve an imprint of themselves upon the earth, to walk palely where their living selves once tred," said Nick miserably.  "But very few wizards choose that path."

Nick goes on to explain that he was afraid of death and the reader gets the impression that is why he stayed behind.  As for Sirius, Nick sums it up with,

"He will not come back," repeated Nick quietly.  "He will have...gone on."

**
Personally, although I obviously loved the character, I don't want Sirius back in any shape or form.  To me, his death is Harry's first time dealing with a death that hits home with such force.

Yes, I know he lost his parents.  But, he was a baby then and I feel the loss there is more of what might have been than what he had.  Moreover, Cedric's death in Book 4 was traumatic, but he was not a close friend or family to Harry.  Sirius was both.  To me, if the books are getting darker and more mature, than Sirius' death is a fine example of a young teen dealing with an immediate loss for the first time.


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