# Liefeld to draw issues of Teen Titans. Comics fans mourn.



## Klaus (Apr 28, 2005)

So Rob Liefeld, the worstest comics penciller this side of... Rob Liefeld, will be drawing two issues of DC's Teen Titans, written by Gail Simone. The issues feature the new Hawk & Dove, which harkens back to Liefeld's first pro work, in the Hawk & Dove miniseries that introduced Dawn Granger as Dove II.

Check out Robin's forearm!


----------



## Henry (Apr 28, 2005)

I don't consider Liefeld's work that bad, but then I'm not a connesieur of art, either. One thing I note - Raven seems rather... well-endowed, does she not? I always thought of her as a little more (putting this mildly) "A" sized than that.


----------



## Aulayan (Apr 28, 2005)

Liefeld isn't "bad" per se.  I've seen far worse in published products (RPG and comics and magazines and art museums).  But...he draws his men as overly muscular, and his women as overly busty.

In fact, were he to draw Power Girl, he'd probably end up giving her her own gravity well.


----------



## Klaus (Apr 28, 2005)

Power Girl has had her own gravity-defying powers since Bart Sears drew her in JLE.

Good times...


----------



## WayneLigon (Apr 28, 2005)

I mourn, indeed. Thank goodness it's only two issues.


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Apr 29, 2005)

Aulayan said:
			
		

> Liefeld isn't "bad" per se...



Yes he is.  His grasp of anatomy is so poor one would think he was himself, an ooze.  No one possessed of actual arms could draw Robin's arm like that and not laugh himself silly.

On the other hand, he's usually laughing all the way to the bank.

We are a doomed race.


----------



## The_lurkeR (Apr 29, 2005)

Ugh... I haven't been collecting comics for years.

I'm just shocked that this putz is still getting paid by someone as an "artist". It's laughable.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Apr 29, 2005)

Finding this out was almost enough to make me skip the two or three issues of Teen Titans. Add to that that Geoff Johns won't be writing them (he's taking a couple months off, working on Infinite Crisis).

I generally like Gail Simone's work, though, and since I'm collecting the title, I am just going to hope for the best.


----------



## ShrinkyLink (Apr 29, 2005)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Power Girl has had her own gravity-defying powers since Bart Sears drew her in JLE. Good times...




Aaaah, Power Girl. Sigh. 

Wait, what was this thread about again? Just got distracted, thinking about ....Power Girl....sigh again...


----------



## Truth Seeker (Apr 29, 2005)

Hey, is this a sign, of a book's cancellation. ???


----------



## ohGr (Apr 29, 2005)

I see he hasn't lost his aversion to drawing feet.  5 characters - 1 visible foot.  You'd think that after all this time the guy would actually learn how to draw feet.


----------



## Testament (Apr 29, 2005)

Just remember, it could be worse, he could be writing it too.  Shudder.

I don't mind his art that much, although the way he's drawn Raven and Cyborg concerns me.  Raven seems _way _ too well endowed, and Cyborg looks like Mr Olympia wrapped in tinfoil.


----------



## Captain Tagon (Apr 29, 2005)

Meh. It's just personal tastes to me but I don't think I've ever seen a DC book where I really enjoyed the art style at all. Even some of the big hitters that keep getting recommended to me like Dark Knight Returns and the Sandman books have just completely turned me off with their art style. And that one pic of this guy's didn't look nearly as bad _to me_ as the stuff in those. Maybe his interior work is that bad as well however.


----------



## Rhialto (Apr 29, 2005)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Power Girl has had her own gravity-defying powers since Bart Sears drew her in JLE.
> 
> Good times...




Oh, her Spheres of Drool-Inducing have existed ever since Wally Wood created her...


----------



## Cthulhu's Librarian (Apr 29, 2005)

I'm glad I'm only reading Teen Titans in trade, not buying individual issues. I can't stand anything I've ever seen of Liefeld's work. 




			
				Captain Tagon said:
			
		

> Even some of the big hitters that keep getting recommended to me like Dark Knight Returns and the Sandman books have just completely turned me off with their art style.




First off, DKR makes up for the art with the story. I'm not a fan of the art (but don't hate it either), but the story is excellent. 

As for Sandman, which artists don't you like? There were many different artists that worked on the series, some issues I like, some I don't, and one is my absolute favorite single issue comic art of all time (#50, P. Craig Russell). but Sandman goes far beyond the art, the story is why you should be reading it. Even the issues where you don't like the art.


----------



## Klaus (Apr 29, 2005)

Rhialto said:
			
		

> Oh, her Spheres of Drool-Inducing have existed ever since Wally Wood created her...



 True that!

I made constant comments about that when I played the Blue Beetle in a DC Heroes game, oh so many moons ago!


----------



## Henry (Apr 29, 2005)

Canis said:
			
		

> Yes he is.  His grasp of anatomy is so poor one would think he was himself, an ooze.  No one possessed of actual arms could draw Robin's arm like that and not laugh himself silly.




Art can be horribly subjective. People used to say Walt Simonson was a good artist, yet I quit reading Thor about 3 issues after he took it over years ago. When he started doing Power Pack, I almost quit reading it - it was the story that kept me buying. The man can write but good GOD I hate his art.


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Apr 29, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> Art can be horribly subjective. People used to say Walt Simonson was a good artist, yet I quit reading Thor about 3 issues after he took it over years ago. When he started doing Power Pack, I almost quit reading it - it was the story that kept me buying. The man can write but good GOD I hate his art.




Fair point.  I just can't STAND Liefield's art, and the depth of my hatred overcomes my appreciation for variety in opinion.  And it doesn't help that the man himself is a giant, raging manifestation of the word "Ego."

One of the things that bugs me the most (and that I think IS objective) is that he can't stay on model with ANY character.  90% of the men end up looking like the Hulk, and the women all go out and get implants the moment he starts drawing a book.  Heck, guys who were DEFINED by their scrawniness in some of the X-books looked like He-man when he drew them.


----------



## Captain Tagon (Apr 29, 2005)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> First off, DKR makes up for the art with the story. I'm not a fan of the art (but don't hate it either), but the story is excellent.
> 
> As for Sandman, which artists don't you like? There were many different artists that worked on the series, some issues I like, some I don't, and one is my absolute favorite single issue comic art of all time (#50, P. Craig Russell). but Sandman goes far beyond the art, the story is why you should be reading it. Even the issues where you don't like the art.





If I just want to read a good story there are much cheaper ways to go bout it than buying graphic novels. The whole reason I buy comics in any form is for a synthesis of the two mediums. Good art and good story both. But that's me. I'm not sure what particular Sandman artists I disliked. I flipped through five different graphic novels at the local bookstore and it just hurt my eyes.


----------



## F5 (Apr 29, 2005)

The last book I picked up that Liefeld drew was, like, 10 years ago.  What has he been doing since then?  Has his style changed/improved at all?  Judging from the picture Klaus put up, I'm guessing no...


----------



## Klaus (Apr 29, 2005)

Treat yourselves to some more pain. Go on, you know you'll do it anyway...

http://www.newsarama.com/DC/liefeld/robtitans1.jpg

Has Kid Flash been shooting up Ben Johnson's private medication? And hey, Wonder Girl's been looking awfully like Starfire, eh? And poor Superboy, he must endure all kinds of jokes about his ballerina feet!

http://www.newsarama.com/DC/liefeld/robtitans4.jpg

Whoa! Wonder Girl and Kid Flash have been hitting the gym! Check out those six-pack abs! And why is Robin so p***d at Kid Flash? Is it because Bart traded Robin's bo staff for Nightwing's escrima sticks?

http://www.newsarama.com/DC/liefeld/robtitans5.jpg

And this is the one you saw, only larger. Raven seems startled by something (must be her new implants!).


----------



## Henry (Apr 29, 2005)

Perhaps someone forgot to tell him that as a woman develops muscle mass, their bosoms get smaller? Or maybe one has to have implants to be super?  

I've seen artists get this wrong before, but I've never seen an artist make a woman's chest LARGER as they get more muscular. Huh.


----------



## WayneLigon (Apr 29, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> Perhaps someone forgot to tell him that as a woman develops muscle mass, their bosoms get smaller? Or maybe one has to have implants to be super?
> 
> I've seen artists get this wrong before, but I've never seen an artist make a woman's chest LARGER as they get more muscular. Huh.




An interesting quote he makes on Newsarama goes something like 'Fans are telling me I make her breasts too big, so I'll have to watch that; I'll get it all right just before it's over.' So I try to take that as a good sign. Then... I.. well, I don't know anything about being a comics artist, but when he says things like 'First I drew Cyborg too big, then I drew him too small'... um, so don't they at least _practice_ for a few days before setting down to draw the first page? Isn't that what all those model sheets and size charts and comparison pics are for?

He just isn't that good an artist, and he even seems to recognize that at time... it was the tremendous hype that probably turned me against him, even more than his average-to-low-grade art. I've certainly seen _worse_ art; the Korean or Viet guy they had on Justice League for three or four issues... my God, I've never seen such bad art outside of a black-and-white self-published thing. I was astounded to see it inside a flagship title.


----------



## Felon (May 1, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> Art can be horribly subjective.




It can be, but there is an objective element as well (which is why art teachers get to grade their students  ). Liefeld simpllly can't draw a lot of things that a paid professional should be able to handle--the aforementioned feet being the most notable indicator of his poorly-refined talents.


----------



## Villano (May 1, 2005)

I have to admit, I do get some strange enjoyment out of Liefeld's art.  It's like watching a "so bad it's good" movie.  

I love seeing his version of "normal" people who are all as hideously huge as his superheroes.  I remember his drawing of this old guy with grey hair and a mustache, a small head, a huge, barrel chest, and tiny, little feet peeking out from beneath his painted on suit.   

The thing I don't like about him is that he has a rep as a rip-off artist.  

Now, I'm not talking about drawing a certain character in a pose like another artist has done.  Stuff like that is inevitable.  There are only a certain amount of ways you can draw Spider-Man swinging or Wolverine attacking before you end up copying what someone else has done.  

Also, I'm willing to cut slack on accusations against artists of duplicating panels on a page layout.  No one holds a copyright on, say, two small panels on the top, a big panel in the middle, and a long one on the bottom.  Again, there are only so many ways to break up a page.

The problem with Liefeld is that he's been known to copy a page from layout to placement of characters.  I remember Peter David had a thing in Comic Buyers Guide (?) in which he did some comparisons of Liefeld's art to others.  One was a page from Frank Miller's Ronin, the other from Liefeld (X-Force?).  Everything was identical.  Of course, you couldn't miss it since the centerpiece was a close-up of Miller's hero stabbing someone behind him by shoving his sword under his arm, and Rob's was an exact duplicate with Shatterstar doing the same.  It looked like Rob tossed Ronin on a light table and traced it.


----------



## Klaus (May 1, 2005)

I remember that. And yes, that was a bit more tnan just a "homage" to a favorite artist. There were quite a few example pages.


----------



## Felon (May 1, 2005)

Villano said:
			
		

> The problem with Liefeld is that he's been known to copy a page from layout to placement of characters.  I remember Peter David had a thing in Comic Buyers Guide (?) in which he did some comparisons of Liefeld's art to others.  One was a page from Frank Miller's Ronin, the other from Liefeld (X-Force?).  Everything was identical.  Of course, you couldn't miss it since the centerpiece was a close-up of Miller's hero stabbing someone behind him by shoving his sword under his arm, and Rob's was an exact duplicate with Shatterstar doing the same.  It looked like Rob tossed Ronin on a light table and traced it.




Not shoving the sword under the arm, but rather _through_ himself. It was X-Force's ShatterStar ripping off the scene from Ronin where he ibasically hari-karis himself to slay his foe Agat. 

Of course, that mortally wounds the ronin, but ShatterStart is only momentarily phased.

Yeah, Rob was pretty blatant with the rip-offs. I remember he had some charactr from back in his Youngblood days whose mask looked exactly like Wolverine's. And that's a pretty unique mask. Then there was "Bloodwulf", a copyright-infringing Lobo-lookalike. 

Damn, what a hack. Glad to see that Johns "decided to take a couple months off" while Liefeld's on-board. I don't think that dynamic would work out real well.


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 2, 2005)

I don't think he's taking time off _because_ of Liefeld, though, as much 
as that Simone/Liefeld are just his replacement team while he's too busy 
writing the whole Crisis sequal and it's multiple off-shots/tie-ins.


----------



## Truth Seeker (May 2, 2005)

Between CBR, Newsarama, and the PULSE...the threads are large. And Captain Jim at CBR, just closed one, with me as the last poster. VB, you can see what I said last. And it was to the point of the entire thread.:\ 

The funny thing is...RL's art never was a hit with me, it was just there, and there...it was. Gail is writing it, and I hope, do hope that the story is translated well, in the panels. That is my concern, and nothing more.


----------



## Psychic Warrior (May 3, 2005)

http://www.robliefeld.net/shrink.htm

Oh. My.  God.

This is Rob Liefield's webcomic 'Shrink!' about superheroes going to see shrinks.  The 'humour' in it is about the same as my 6 year old nephew comes up with.  Has to be seen to be believed.

I never cared much for Rob Liefield but after seeing this I wouldn't go near his stuff on a bet.


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 3, 2005)

Funnily, those strips feature some of his least distorted art I've seen.

It's pretty representable, really.


----------



## sniffles (May 10, 2005)

Bleargh!  I've never seen a single character drawing by Leifeld that I thought was in any way appealing.  I can't understand why he was such a hot artist.  

It's a good thing I can't afford to pick up my comics anyway.  I won't have to be blinded by the hideousness.


----------



## Klaus (May 11, 2005)

Well, for every Rob Liefeld-tainted debacle, there's a José Luis Garcia-Lopez drawn, George Pérez inked "Return of Donna Troy"... So it all evens out, I guess...


----------

