# Castles & Crusades vs. Old School Essentials vs. Low Fantasy Gaming



## daddystabz (Jun 22, 2021)

Which do you prefer between Castles & Crusades Old School Essentials, and Low Fantasy Gaming and why?


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## Libertad (Jun 22, 2021)

I own copies of C&C and OSE, but haven't read Low Fantasy Gaming, so my answer is rather incomplete.

Castles & Crusades is still going strong and it may have been errata'd, but during the time I read it the underlying math of the SIEGE engine was screwed up. As a "rules-lite/old-school D&D" system, other OSR games quickly occupied my interest, a lot of them broadly compatible with each other and official TSR modules. Although one of the newer retroclones, Old School Essentials continues on in the footsteps of games like Labyrinth Lord and Swords & Wizardry, but with stellar layout and reader-friendliness.

Castles & Crusades was meant to be a stripped-down version of the D20 system, and so has its inception lodged during the 3rd Edition era. I've long since moved on from 3.5 and Pathfinder, and find OSR and 5e games a lot more approachable. Thus OSE is the best choice of the 3 for me.


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## Malmuria (Jun 22, 2021)

Just got OSE advanced fantasy and it is great.  I like that you can run all the early modules with little problem, plus more modern modules.


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## Retreater (Jun 22, 2021)

Of the three, I've played only OSE and C&C. 

As mentioned before, C&C's SEIGE Engine is kind of wonky. It feels backwards compared to the rest of the d20-based mechanics. C&C was okay when we had only 3.x D&D in print, but now there are so many other rules options. In fact, I would prefer just to go with 5e D&D and try to run it a little more streamlined.

OSE, I didn't really like. My nostalgia isn't for BECMI D&D. There's not enough options (even in the advanced genre rules), and the options that they give are widely imbalanced (thieves and acrobats stink, for example). It tries to be too faithful for a system - while great in its time - most of us moved away from in the early 1980s.

Of all of the OSR systems, I probably prefer Swords & Wizardry. It's completely free in PDF, and while it has some of the same problems as OSE, it's at least a little more streamlined and simplified.


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## Marc_C (Jun 22, 2021)

Didn't like Castles & Crusades Siege Engine.

Low Fantasy Gaming is an hybrid d20 OGL game.

OSE, did quench my thirst for a revamped publication of the B/X books. I did a few solitary games with it. Fun to thread that path again for nostalgia purposes.

I would say *Advanced Labyrinth Lord* is the best book for Old School gaming. It contains the basic Labyrinth Lord book (B/X) and the advanced options you can turn on as needed. 272 pages of goodness between two covers.


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## Ralif Redhammer (Jun 22, 2021)

I played a ton of C&C back when it was new. It hit at the right time for me, just when I was getting worn out by 3e. But these days, I think I'd pick Old School Essentials over it. OSE hits the nostalgia buttons just right, and is an even more streamlined system. Can't speak to Low Fantasy Gaming, though.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 22, 2021)

We moved our 3E campaign to C&C when 4E came out, as I needed a break from the increasingly cumbersome 3E system as everyone leveled up. It hit the sweet spot for me, with its broad compatibility with everything from OD&D through 3E (and probably 5E), but I never stopped having to puzzle through the Siege Engine, which isn't nearly as clear as the Troll Lords think and is an obviously subpar resolution system. But I loved that we could grab monsters, spells or even whole character classes from other editions of the game and throw them into C&C without breaking stride.

Their class design is great and the class-and-a-half system lets groups create unique classes that feel like 1E classes should have included. A balanced, spell-less ranger and spell-less paladin by default (and a knight class, for folks who want their paladins to be entirely free of supernatural influence) are great, and you can then add back in spells through the class-and-a-half system. My campaign had a ranger with druid spells and one who had cleric spells through her worship of the goddess of home and hearth, and they both had a distinctive feel to them. Likewise, C&C gives you the 1E assassin, which you can turn into a 3E assassin by doing class-and-a-half with illusionist.

Some of their supplements, which have gone through multiple systems and have been converted by people without real system mastery (Book of Familiars, I'm looking at you) are kind of a mess, but it's the excited puppy enthusiasm of early Dragon magazine articles, rather than a cavalier attitude about putting out good products.

They've also put out a really solid line of various cultural takes on C&C (for the most part -- the Germanic and Norse books have a large overlap with each other and probably should have been one book, rather than asking people to buy the same material twice), something I'm surprised other companies haven't emulated in the same way.

The whole line could use a serious edit (at one point, their two main monster books had competing versions of Zork's grue, which no one at Troll Lords headquarters seemed to have realized) and I could not care less about their official setting that they increasingly focus on. But the Troll Lords themselves seem to be just about the nicest guys in the roleplaying business and their love of early to mid 1E radiates through the whole line (as opposed to Goodman's focus on early 1E flavor).

I would love to see someone come in with a ton of money and help them upgrade their line to more professional polish and maybe pry the Siege Engine from their fingers in favor of a more standard D20 resolution system, which I think would make their game instantly more accessible.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 22, 2021)

I haven't played OSE, but it has a great reputation. When I looked at the Kickstarter earlier this year, I think I bounced off not having racial classes (which I've come back around to liking as an option) and I think it uses decreasing AC, doesn't it? That's also a dealbreaker for me nowadays -- once I got a unified resolution system with 3E, I am never going back in D&D games.


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## Retreater (Jun 22, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> I haven't played OSE, but it has a great reputation. When I looked at the Kickstarter earlier this year, I think I bounced off not having racial classes (which I've come back around to liking as an option) and I think it uses decreasing AC, doesn't it? That's also a dealbreaker for me nowadays -- once I got a unified resolution system with 3E, I am never going back in D&D games.



In OSE there are options for ascending AC and the advanced genre rules lets you separate race and class.


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## TwoSix (Jun 22, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> I haven't played OSE, but it has a great reputation. When I looked at the Kickstarter earlier this year, I think I bounced off not having racial classes (which I've come back around to liking as an option) and I think it uses decreasing AC, doesn't it? That's also a dealbreaker for me nowadays -- once I got a unified resolution system with 3E, I am never going back in D&D games.



OSE uses racial classes (the core game is a faithful recreation of the B/X rules with a very nice layout); I think the Kickstarter was for the Advanced Fantasy genre rules, which convert a lot of 1E stuff into the B/X rules, but also has an optional race&class section in the book for those who want more of a 1E feel.


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## GMMichael (Jun 22, 2021)

Libertad said:


> I own copies of C&C and OSE, but haven't read Low Fantasy Gaming, so my answer is rather incomplete.



Mine will be incomplete too; I own none of the above.

Microlite20 is my first choice for old school style - free to use, lots of mods/expansions, simple class & race choices, and the rules, though D&D-like, are just archaic enough to give the first-time-meeting-RPGs feel.

But given the non-stop discussion about OSR on the boards, I'm overdue to write an OSR module for Modos RPG (which would probably be a quick write-up and an interesting conflict of OGL interests...).

I'll have to peruse these other comparisons to see what I'm missing!


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 22, 2021)

I run OSE now and love it.  The base game is pretty much a re-organized clone of B/X, but with the Advanced rules it mixes in enough AD&D to be nearly perfect for me.  Just got my Kickstarter stuff, Advanced Monsters and Advanced Treasure which pretty much makes the game exactly what I want.  And its easy enough to fit in stuff from any of the other B/X clones.   And as for layout and use at the table its wonderfully done. 

I ran C&C back in the first printing days of it and I did like it as I was burned out on running 3.x and looking for something a bit more simple.  But it wasn't enough to hold me and I'm not the biggest fan of the siege system though I could defiantly play or run it again.  

Never heard of Low Fantasy Gaming.  

I'd run S&W though if I dropped OSE.  OSE has just enough extra meat on the bone though to put it over.


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## Sithlord (Jun 22, 2021)

I respect castles and crusades. But I vastly prefer old school essentials. They place alot of thought into aiding game masters to craft encounters and adventures. Great rules for wilderness exploration and exploration in general. Old school essentials is built to aid the GM.


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## Parmandur (Jun 22, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> We moved our 3E campaign to C&C when 4E came out, as I needed a break from the increasingly cumbersome 3E system as everyone leveled up. It hit the sweet spot for me, with its broad compatibility with everything from OD&D through 3E (and probably 5E), but I never stopped having to puzzle through the Siege Engine, which isn't nearly as clear as the Troll Lords think and is an obviously subpar resolution system. But I loved that we could grab monsters, spells or even whole character classes from other editions of the game and throw them into C&C without breaking stride.
> 
> Their class design is great and the class-and-a-half system lets groups create unique classes that feel like 1E classes should have included. A balanced, spell-less ranger and spell-less paladin by default (and a knight class, for folks who want their paladins to be entirely free of supernatural influence) are great, and you can then add back in spells through the class-and-a-half system. My campaign had a ranger with druid spells and one who had cleric spells through her worship of the goddess of home and hearth, and they both had a distinctive feel to them. Likewise, C&C gives you the 1E assassin, which you can turn into a 3E assassin by doing class-and-a-half with illusionist.
> 
> ...



I'm not directly familiar with Castles & Crusades, can you explain how the SIEGE Engine works? I recall hearing people say that one of the 5E DMG optional replacements for the Skills system was pretty similar.

I haven't played any of the 3 systems in question,  but I'm going to put a rec for Dungeon Crawl Classics out there. A very different game that reexamine the assumptions of the genre from the ground up.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 22, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> I'm not directly familiar with Castles & Crusades, can you explain how the SIEGE Engine works? I recall hearing people say that one of the 5E DMG optional replacements for the Skills system was pretty similar.
> 
> I haven't played any of the 3 systems in question,  but I'm going to put a rec for Dungeon Crawl Classics out there. A very different game that reexamine the assumptions of the genre from the ground up.




Basically in your prime attributes you need a 12 on your check, on the rest its an 18.  Then there are stat mods of course and difficulty modifiers and you add your level as well.  So D20+stat mod+level > 12/18 + difficulty


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## Parmandur (Jun 22, 2021)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> Basically in your prime attributes you need a 12 on your check, on the rest its an 18.  Then there are stat mods of course and difficulty modifiers and you add your level as well.  So D20+stat mod+level > 12/18 + difficulty



That certainly sounds less fiddley than 3E: kludge Advantage/Disadvantage  on there and we'd be cooking with oil.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 22, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> I'm not directly familiar with Castles & Crusades, can you explain how the SIEGE Engine works?



The Siege Engine has two set difficulties for difficulty rolls, one for if you're proficient (you pick two ability scores to be proficient in, based on your class, and all abilities that would come under that*, you're proficient in) and one if you're not proficient. Then you kind of back into rolling against that number -- I have flushed some of the complications out of my brain, because they were always kind of goofy -- and see how you did.

But the numbers don't change as you level, since your stats don't improve, so your ability to do class-related abilities never gets better. And since there's only two set numbers, it gets unnecessarily fiddly to change difficulties.


Parmandur said:


> I recall hearing people say that one of the 5E DMG optional replacements for the Skills system was pretty similar.



A _lot_ of 5E looks like Castles & Crusades. Some of it is no doubt parallel evolution, as both games had similar goals, but it would be a shock if the 5E team hadn't closely examined C&C when they were preparing for D&D Next.

* C&C also doesn't spell out which skills go with which ability scores, leading to a lot of debate in my experience. We eventually just went off the 3E skills and which stats they were associated with. A lot of C&C relies on the Troll Lords unspoken and unpublished house rules.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 22, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> That certainly sounds less fiddley than 3E: kludge Advantage/Disadvantage  on there and we'd be cooking with oil.



It's more fiddly than it appears and it's not clear why the Siege Engine (TM, everywhere it appears) is better than a standard D20 resolution mechanic.


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## Retreater (Jun 22, 2021)

The Siege Engine is basically the equivalent of THAC0 for skill checks.


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## Von Ether (Dec 19, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> But the numbers don't change as you level, since your stats don't improve, so your ability to do class-related abilities never gets better. And since there's only two set numbers, it gets unnecessarily fiddly to change difficulties.




I remembering  that PCs got a level bonus for skills relating to their class, which made thieves with their lower XP levels keep pace with the other classes.

For the Siege Engine, my crew simply did a +6 bonus for Prime skills. The math seemed a little wonky at first or second level (so was 3e where I saw lucky rolls turn a wizard into a killing machine for session), but as characters go up, it all sorted out.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 19, 2021)

C&C might need to fudge the numbers eg not tying attack numbers for monsters to HD. Dragons are wonky. 

 C&C is definitely one of the easier to run not D&D's. 

OSE might be to simple but I like it but haven't played it. I would play it but I have several B/X clones already don't need another. 

 Not familiar with last one. 

 C&C wins based on what I'm familiar with/own.


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## cbwjm (Dec 19, 2021)

I'd say CnC, but that's mostly due to my familiarity with it. I think I've read through old school essentials but dismissed it, possibly because I could just use my old school books. No idea what low fantasy gaming is though.


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## Mordhau (Dec 19, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> But the numbers don't change as you level, since your stats don't improve, so your ability to do class-related abilities never gets better.



Don't you add your class level to all class based skill checks?



Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> And since there's only two set numbers, it gets unnecessarily fiddly to change difficulties.




The seige engine could easily be replaced with a flat bonus (and often is).

Although you could also use 5e proficiency bonus if you like.


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## Gnosistika (Dec 19, 2021)

My preference lies with C&C, warts and all. It is just easy to run. My group actually like the SIEGE engine, it is not perfect but it is simple enough for just pick up and go when we feal like doing some D&D.  Hacked on Kits and spells from ad&d 2e and it runs great. We did move to Monsters & Magic eventually (there is no support for the system sadly).

OSE is a great game but I just can't seem to find joy running it.


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## jdrakeh (Dec 19, 2021)

Castles & Crusades for me. It's not perfect, but it _is_ simple and has an absolute _ton_ of support in the form of adventures, bestiaries, and other supplements. Plus, the editing has improved considerably in the recent past. I own the sixth and seventh printings of the PHB, the fifth printing of M&T, and the second printing of the CKG. All are reasonably free of serious errors.

Old School Essentials is something that I own - in some form - but haven't yet played. I say "in some form" because there have been a lot of "core" OSE rulebooks competing for the same game space. It's kind of confusing for me, to be honest. That said, the system has a good reputation and has a fair library of support for a game that isn't that old.

Finally, Low Fantasy Gaming was, frankly, a mess. I owned the first edition (there's a second "Deluxe" edition now). The first edition had all the bad editing of early Castles & Crusades, exacerbated by a bunch of half-baked rules (I've heard a fellow designer refer to them as "incomplete"). I was put off enough by the first edition that I didn't give the Deluxe edition a chance.


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## Mordhau (Dec 19, 2021)

I'd say if you want a solid game system to play OSR modules with choose Old School Essentials.

If you want to recapture the feel of AD&D with a better system go with Castles and Crusades.


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## GreyLord (Dec 19, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> I'm not directly familiar with Castles & Crusades, can you explain how the SIEGE Engine works? I recall hearing people say that one of the 5E DMG optional replacements for the Skills system was pretty similar.
> 
> I haven't played any of the 3 systems in question,  but I'm going to put a rec for Dungeon Crawl Classics out there. A very different game that reexamine the assumptions of the genre from the ground up.




Siege engine works that you have primes and normal ability scores.  With a Prime ability score you get a +8 +level to roll over (so, in general it is a 12 that you need to roll over, though you reduce that by 1 point per level, so 11 at 1st level, 10 at 2nd leve, 9 at third level) when you are trying something (for example, trying to break down a door).  

[NOTE:  Some would call it a +6 bonus, and say the base difficulty roll is actually an 18 rather than 20.  This is actually more in line with the more recent releases of the 5e proficiency bonus if you will, putting the base DC as 18, and those with the primary ability score bonus as getting a +6 to that roll]

This can be opposed by other checks.  These are also adjudicated or adjusted by level.  For example, if that door you were trying to break down was being supported and refreshed by another the difficulty would go up by +1 per level.

An example of this would be if you were trying to sneak past an Guard.  If you were level 5, your base difficulty to roll over would be a 7 (12 - 5).  If the guard was a level 4 guard, or 4 HD guard, this would add 4 points to that 7 (7+4) which would mean you would need to roll a 4 or greater to succeed as long as Dexterity was your primary ability score.

Any ability score which is NOT your primary ability score gives you a +2 (so you would need to roll an 18 or greater as a base).  So, in the example above, if dexterity was NOT your primary ability score you would need to roll a 13 at level 5 (18-5).  The Guard being a 4th level guard would mean you need to roll over a 17 (13+4) to succeed.

[NOTE: In reference above, if you say 18 is the Base difficulty DC, than you don't get a bonus, so much as roll based off the DC without the proficiency bonus, only adding your level bonus instead]

Demi-humans get 2 primary ability scores, Humans get 3.  Half Elves get and additional half primary ability score as one would put it, that gives them a halfway bonus between the two.

In many ways, 4e's and 5e's proficiency systems were taken from Castles and Crusades and as such are very adaptable to it (though 4e was a mere +4, and 5e adapated from that is a more gradual elevation of +2 to +6).

Similarly, they work very closely (opposed checks use proficiency bonus...etc) in how they operate.

I find Castles and Crusades actually melds even better with 5e than it did with 3e (didn't meld to well with 4e despite the proficiency system similarities though, mostly due to the extra powers each class got in 4e).

I use it in a mix and match with 5e rather often today, using more of a 5e system, but with C&C bonuses and classes as well as adventures.


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## JEB (Dec 19, 2021)

Gnosistika said:


> We did move to Monsters & Magic eventually (there is no support for the system sadly).



Off-topic, but it's a damn shame Monsters & Magic didn't get more traction. I feel like their system had a lot of potential (and not just for D&D emulation).


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## Weiley31 (Dec 19, 2021)

I've yet to dip my feet in the OSR, but I lean more towards OSE since I've been wanting to play/try out BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia, even though OSE is basically B/X. But then, this is coming from a guy who wants to play BECMI using a combination of Rules Cyclopedia and modding in stuff in the way Lamentations of the Flame Princess does things, such as using its Specialist in place of the normal thief/swapping the thief table with the Specialist table mechanics.

Then again, this is also coming from the guy who wants to play Lamentations of the Flame Princess using various rules from Rules Cyclopedia and a Sphynx pc from one of the older Creature Crucible books. _Why be afraid of the monsters when you are the monster_ in sheep's clothing.

I will give points to Castle and Crusades for coming out with those sweet looking homage covers of the PHB, MM, and DMG. I'll probably get those books just because of the homages.


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## Mezuka (Dec 19, 2021)

None. AD&D2 is my preferred 'old school' edition.


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## Jahydin (Dec 19, 2021)

I own pretty much all the major OSR systems, but C&C is what I find myself constantly going back to. The "Trolls" took AD&D, chiseled and polished all the odd and clunky rules till they sparkled, then supplemented it with their SIEGE Engine. The 7th edition Player's Handbook is free on their website; I highly encourage everyone to grab it and take a look through it.

My favorites bits:

1. Power Level:
Characters are more powerful and capable then their OSE (B/X) counterparts, but the world is still dangerous, allowing for plenty of heroic moments. Lower monster HP also makes battles faster, tense, and easier to narrate as well.

2. Treasure Tables:
The random treasure tables in the Monsters and Treasure book are by far my favorite. Find the monster's listed treasure level and roll to get appropriately leveled treasure. Makes stocking dungeons incredibly easy. Oh, and there is an Exp and gold value for each item too!

3. SIEGE:
The SIEGE Engine, once groked, is an incredibly useful tool that allows you to resolve any task on the fly. It also makes rolling high stats much less important than other versions (since you get to choose which stats your character excels at).

Also, Rogues are much more successful at doing their jobs at low level.

4. Easy to Modify:
Because the main driving force of the system (SIEGE) is just layered on top the pre-existing AD&D game, modifying the game to your particular taste is incredibly easy. For instance, in my game, I have a single target number for all skill checks and use 5E's Advantage/Disadvantage!


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## deganawida (Jun 1, 2022)

I recently got the 8th printing of the Castles & Crusades Players Handbook, and love it.  I still need to do some more reading, but I'll try to sum up my thoughts thus far, below.

I like OSE, having bought the books for Classic Fantasy, Advanced Fantasy, and the really well done DM screen.  However, what I found when I tried running a session is that my appreciation for it is less for how it plays and its default assumptions, but more in how the rules (remember, this is B/X) reinforce and encourage that play style.  It's like appreciating the design behind a race car while still preferring horse races and finding car races boring (guilty).

What I have found with Castles & Crusades, is that, while I like the rules, the _feel_ is what I really appreciate. I started with AD&D Second Edition, and that type of fantasy where it's on the border of heroic and high fantasy was what the game system seemed aimed at, whether it captured that or not. C&C does feel that it captures that type of fantasy. The classes aren't designed to be killing machines; each class has major abilities that don't play in combat. Instead, they seem to capture the archetypes that I love in fantasy fiction, and give you abilities that mimic them. I mean, I can think of a mechanical benefit for the Knight class to be able to knight NPCs and thus give them the class, but the real benefit that I glean from this is that is something knights do in the fiction, when they find someone worthy. The mechanical benefit would only be reinforcing the fiction. Deer Stalker allows Barbarians to be superior athletes. Rangers are your expert trackers. The Bard is like that one dude from _The Black Cauldron _with the brooch whose name I can never remember, instead of being straight Fflewdyr Fflamm, what with the emphasis on persuasion and legend lore and combat and no magic.  These elements are most important to me, because they help me to feel that I am like these characters from fantasy fiction and movies that I wanted to be when a young child. 

Essentially, it boils down to this for me:  For a straight up game, where you just want to play as a fun pastime, OSE is great.  I'm sure there's lots of emergent gameplay from it that's not expected, similar to what will happen in a Risk or Monopoly session.  However, if you want to emulate the literature and movies and cartoons that may have inspired your preference for fantasy (assuming you started as I did), then C&C all the way.


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## Von Ether (Jun 1, 2022)

deganawida said:


> The Bard is like that one dude from _The Black Cauldron _with the brooch whose name I can never remember, instead of being straight Fflewdyr Fflamm, what with the emphasis on persuasion and legend lore and combat and no magic.  These elements are most important to me, because they help me to feel that I am like these characters from fantasy fiction and movies that I wanted to be when a young child.



I felt like the Bard was the "smart fighter," the fellow who could swing a sword one moment and then in the next could tell you the history of the land and perhaps the best customs to practice to keep the locals happy. The folk hero sort who is between the cleric and knight. 

It's an option that rarely offered right out of the box and I didn't really consider it before seeing it in C&C.


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## deganawida (Jun 1, 2022)

Von Ether said:


> I felt like the Bard was the "smart fighter," the fellow who could swing a sword one moment and then in the next could tell you the history of the land and perhaps the best customs to practice to keep the locals happy. The folk hero sort who is between the cleric and knight.
> 
> It's an option that rarely offered right out of the box and I didn't really consider it before seeing it in C&C.




I would concur.  I think it also maps rather well to your typical bumpkin-turned-hero protagonist of fantasy fiction.

EDIT:  It's also cool that you could make an historical Pericles using the C&C Bard.  Heck, could probably even do Plato, given his history and his writings.


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## Jahydin (Jun 2, 2022)

deganawida said:


> I recently got the 8th printing of the Castles & Crusades Players Handbook, and love it.  I still need to do some more reading, but I'll try to sum up my thoughts thus far, below.
> 
> I like OSE, having bought the books for Classic Fantasy, Advanced Fantasy, and the really well done DM screen.  However, what I found when I tried running a session is that my appreciation for it is less for how it plays and its default assumptions, but more in how the rules (remember, this is B/X) reinforce and encourage that play style.  It's like appreciating the design behind a race car while still preferring horse races and finding car races boring (guilty).
> 
> ...



Perfectly said!

C&C just feels right. I think because it plays the same way I *ran *my AD&D games as a kid and not what was *RAW*, haha. 

Also, I'm not quite sure how to say it... it just has an integrity about it. I own many OSR products that are great in their own right, but many rely on artistic gimmicks and/or shock value to stand out and be interesting. C&C has stayed true to just being traditional D&D when it still pulled from ancient stories rather than being self-referencing.

I was just reading a low-level OSE adventure and there's a creature that you have to Save vs. Breath Weapon or suffer a permanent mutation like growing a third eye on your forehead. While great for "one-shots", that sort of disregard for PC worth just isn't my thing.


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## BenTheFerg (Jun 4, 2022)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> I haven't played OSE, but it has a great reputation. When I looked at the Kickstarter earlier this year, I think I bounced off not having racial classes (which I've come back around to liking as an option) and I think it uses decreasing AC, doesn't it? That's also a dealbreaker for me nowadays -- once I got a unified resolution system with 3E, I am never going back in D&D games.



It has racial classes. In the basic game, elf, dwarf & halfling.
Plus you can use increasing or decreasing AC.


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## Yora (Jun 4, 2022)

OSE Advanced has both options.


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## Von Ether (Jun 4, 2022)

As a side note: Since levels get added to class-related siege checks and the Thief has the quickest skill progression, I feel like C&C is one of the D&D variants that give rogues some respect. 

It doesn't hurt that you can try things related to your PCs history, motivating players to create backstories.


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## Zardnaar (Jun 4, 2022)

Von Ether said:


> As a side note: Since levels get added to class-related siege checks and the Thief has the quickest skill progression, I feel like C&C is one of the D&D variants that give rogues some respect.
> 
> It doesn't hurt that you can try things related to your PCs history, motivating players to create backstories.




 That and the DC 12/18 system. A rogue in effect gets +6 on all trained skills at gamestart.


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## teitan (Jun 5, 2022)

Of the options OSE if you like B/X. It’s simple and easy. It gets out of the way. C&C I found to be a valiant attempt at a more AD&D style game but wasn’t a strong system and it’s early success was probably on the back of Castle Zagyg.  It’s a viable game but OSE is just better. Buutttt…

If you want a more advanced option then Swords & Wizardry Core is good for BX style with race decoupled from class and Complete is good with the expanded class lists and you won’t need to spend 100+ to get the set of rules. 

Then if you want more modern mechanics, while it seems more daunting than it is, Dungeon Crawl Classics is a great option for old school gaming. Some people mistakenly think it’s 3.x but it’s about as 3.x as Mutants & Masterminds is 3.x. It’s founded in the OGL but is it’s own game with very classic takes more akin to early D&D and smooth to run even with the various charts for spells. Importing the thief skills to OSE/S&W or OSR game of choice would also be an easy way to bring in a unified mechanic.


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