# WotC Spring 2009 Catalog



## thalmin (Jul 28, 2008)

UPDATED
Just got my hands on the new WotC Spring 2009 Catalog, which covers January through April. It provides more info on some products we already know about, plus some new ones.

replaced by full report

RPGs

*Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead*
A *D&D* Supplement by Bruce R. Cordell, Eytan Bernstein, and Brian James
_Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead_ depicts a host of new undead, including new varieties of zombies, wraiths, skeletons, ghouls, and vampires. _Open Grave_ also introduces several completely new types of undead, such as moongaunts, forsaken shells, and death oozes, to name just a few.
The sourcebook also provides information about undead origins, tactics, myths, lairs, behaviors, and more. In addition, this book provides elaboratelair entries (including tactical encounters) for undead at each tier of play. Broad story and campaign elements in _Open Grave_ give DMs ready-to-play material that can be easily incorporated into a game, such as undead templates and power substitutions, adventure hooks and quests, and statistics for unique undead such as Acerak and Vecna.

Hardcover, 228 pages, $29.95 
January 20, 2009

*Player's Handbook Power Cards*
A *D&D* Accessory
Players using _*Player's Handbook*_ Power Cards don't need to crack open a rulebook every time they cast a spell - all the crucial informatoin is right in front of their eyes.
Each and every class power appearing in the *Player's Handbook* has its own card. Simply select the cards for your character's powers and you're ready to play!
Each deck of 100 cards includes all the powers from *Player's Handbook* for one of the eight classes featured in the book, plus a few blank cards for players to use for other powers.
The display box includes sixteen decks of power cards: two decks apiece for the cleric, fighter, paladin, ranger, rogue, warlock, warlord, and wizard.
*Key Selling Points*

Nonradomized: Each deck includes every power appearing in the Player's Handbook for its class
Each deck is designed for a specific class, making it an easy purchasing decision for players
Playtesting shows that combat cards are fun and easy to use and also speed up the game
Perfect companion product to the Player's Handbook
The only official power cards for *D&D*
$9.99
January 20,2009

*Martial Power Cards*
A *D&D* Accessory
Players using _Martial Power_ Cards don't need to crack open a rulebook every time they swing a sword - all the crucial informatoin is right in front of their eyes.
Each and every power appearing in the _Martial Power_ sourcebook has its own card. Simply select the cards for the powers your character is using and you're ready to play!
Each deck of 100 cards includes all the powers from _Martial Power_ for one of the four classes features in the book - fighter, ranger, rogue, and warlord - plus a few blank cards for players to use for other powers.
The display box includes eight decks of power cards: two apaiece for the fighter, ranger, rogue, and the warlord.

$9.99
January 20, 2009

*The Clone Wars Campaign Guide*
A *Star Wars* Roleplaying Game Supplement by Rodney Thompson, JD Wilker, Patrick Stutzman, Gary Astleford, and Rob Brown
_The Clone Wars Campaign Guide_ launches heroes into the middle of sweeping battles to determine the fate of the galaxy. This book provides everything you need to set your adventures during the conflict between the Galactic Republic and the Separatist forces under the command of Count Dooku.
This book includes new information for heroes on both sides of the war, including new talents, feats, prestige classes, and equipment designed to tailor characters to the unique feel of the Clone Wars conflict. More than just information for players, _The Clone Wars Campaign Guide_ provides Gamemasters with descriptions and statistics for starships, vehicles, allies, opponants, and planets and features in-depth information on material drawn from Lucasfilm's new CG animated series, _The Clone Wars._

Hardcover, 224 pages, $39.95
January 20, 2009

*Dungeon Delve*
A *D&D* Adventure by David Noonan and Bill Slavicsek
_Dungeon Delve_ provides the DM withan array of small, easy-to-run dungeons each especially designed for a night of gaming.
This book is designed for groups looking for an exciting night of monster-slay9ngwithout the prep time. It contains dozens of self-contained easy-to-run mini-dungeons, or "delves," each one crafted for a few hours of game-play.
The book includes delves for 1st- to 3oth-level characters, and features dozens of iconic monsters for the heroes to battle. Dungeon Masters can run these delves as one-shot adventures or weave them into their campaign.

*Key Selling Points*

This book has encounters for all levels of characters, from 1st to 30th. 
DMs can drop each of the mini-dungeons into their games at a moment's notice. 
Based on the extremely popular "Delve" events held at gaming conventions. 
Every delve is designed to use existing *D&D* Dungeon Tiles and *D&D* Miniatures.
Hardcover, 192 pages, $29.95
February 17, 2009

*DU3 Caves of Carnage Dungeon Tiles*
A *D&D* Accessory
This product gives Dungeon Masters an easy and inexpensive way to include great-looking terrain for their games. This set provides ready-to-use, configurable tiles with which to build exciting underground encounter scenes.
This accessory fo the *Dungeons & Dragons* Roleplaying Game contains six double-sided sheets of illustrated, die-cut terrain tiles printed on heavy cardstock. These tiles feature twisting caverns that include underground rivers, chasms, treacherous rope bridges, and the aftermath of bloody battles.
$9.95
February 17, 2009

*P3 Assault on Nightwyrm Fortress*
A *D&D*Adventure by Bruce R. Cordell and Shawn Merwin
_Assault on Nightwyrm Fortress_ is a *D&D* adventure designed to take characters from 17th to 21st level. In this adventure, the PCs discover that not all souls rest easy, particularly those spirited away to Nightwyrm Fortress. To learn the truth, players must pierce death's veil itself and enter Shadowfell, where sinister echoes of life wing through eternal gloom.
This adventure can be run as a stand-alone dventure or as Part Three of a three-part series of adventures (starting with _P1 King of the Trollhaunt Warrens,_ and continuing with _P2 Demon Queen's Enclave_ that spans the paragon tier of gameplay.
96 pages, $24.95
March 17, 2009

*Player's Handbook 2*
A *D&D* Supplement by Rob Heinsoo and Mike Mearls
*Player's Handbook 2* expands the range of options available to *D&D* players with new classes, races, powers, and other material.
This book builds on the array of classes and races presented in the first *Player's Handbook*, adding both old favorites and new, never-before-seen options to the game.
The book adds a new poer source for 4th Edition *D&D*: classes using the new primal power source include the barbarian and the druid.

*Key Selling Points*
This book is aimed directly at players, helping them build more exciting and interesting characters.
The new classes in this book include some long-time favorites of *D&D* players, such as the barbarian, druid, and sorcerer.
The book features several new races, including the gnome, the half-orc, and the goliath.
Hardcover, 224 pages, $34.95
March 17, 2009

*Legacy Era Campaign Guide* A *Star Wars* Roleplaying Game Supplement by Rodney Thompson, Sterling Hershey, and Gary Astleford
The Empire rules the galaxy once more, this time under the control of the vile Darth Krayt, and resistance is crushed under the heels of Sith overlords. The Jedi are scattered and devastated, with only a handful remaining to resist the tyranny of the Sith. The Galactic Alliance fleet is but a shadow of its former self, struggling to stay hidden while engaging in hit-and-run attacks against the Empire.
This is theLegacy Era, set 130 years after the Battle of Yavin. This campaign guide gives players and Gamemasters the freedom to shape the *Star Wars* galaxy during an exciting period when no one is safe from evil. Players can join the struggling Alliance fleet, or fight for Roan Fel's Empire-in-exile. This book contains everything players need to create heroes that fit perfectly into the Legacy Era, while Gamemasters will find the book filled with allies, antagonists, starships, and plot hooks to create exciting adventures against the backdrop of a galaxy ruled by the Sith.
Hardcover, 224 pages, $39.95
March 17, 2009

*E1 Death's Reach*
A *D&D* Adventure by Bruce R. Cordell and Chris Sims
_Death's Reach_ is a *D&D* adventure designed to take characters from 21st to 24th level. In this adventure, players learn the very foundation of reality is threatened by those seeking to usurp the powers of the gods of death. To prevent this cosmic coup, players must trace disruptions into the Shadowfell's timeless core, where all things find their end.
This adventure can be run as a stand-alone adventure or as Part One of a three-part series of adventures (beginning with this one) that spans the epic tier of gameplay.
96 pages, $24.95
April 21, 2009

*Arcane Power*
A *D&D* Supplement by Logan Bonner, Eytan Bernstein, and Peter Lee
_Arcane Power_ isthe latest in a line of player-friendly supplements offering hundreds of new options for *D&D* Characters. This tome focuses on the arcane heroes: characters who wield strange and mysterious spells and rely on thier mastery of magic for survival.
This book provides new archetypal builds for the wizard, warlock, sorcerer, bard, and swordmage classes, including new character powers, feats, paragon paths, and epic destinies.
Hardcover, 160 pages, $29.95
April 21, 2009

*Player's Handbook 2 Power Cards*
A *D&D* Accessory
Players using *Player's Handbook 2* Power Cards don't need to crack open a rulebook every time they cast a spell - all the crucial information is right in front of their eyes.
Each and every class power appearing in *Player's Handbook 2* has its own card. Simply select the cards for your character's powers and you're ready to play!
Each deck of 100 cards includes all the powers from *Player's Handbook 2* for one of the eight classes featured in the book, plus a few blank cards for players to use for other powers.
$9.95
April 21, 2009

Miniatures

Imperial Entanglements
A *Star Wars* Miniatures Game Booster Pack
_Imperial Entanglements_ focuses on the Rebellion Era and features characters from *Star Wars* Episode V: _The Empire Strikes Back_ and *Star Wars* Episode VI:_Return of the Jedi._ This set also includes important figures from the *Star Wars* Expanded Universe.
The new set size of 40 miniatures will make collecting favorite chacters easier. 7 miniatures plus cards per pack.
$14.99
February 24, 2009

*Feywild*
A *Dungeons & Dragons* Miniatures Game Expansion
Primal fury erupts in a battle between the guardians of nature and those who would corrupt it!
Eight figures plus cards per pack.
$14.99
March 17, 2009

*D&D Miniatures Game Starter Set*
A *Dungeons & Dragons* Miniatures Game Product
The *D&D* Miniatures Game rules have been updated to facilitate faster, exciting gameplay. In addition, this new starter features blister packaging that showcases all five miniatures in the set.

Each starter contains:

5 exclusive, non-random, pre-painted miniatures: Troll-King, Dragonborn Rogue, Gnoll Huntmaster, Halfling Cleric, and Woodland Defender.
5 stat cards
2 double-sided, illustrated battle grids
1 damage counter sheet
1 twenty-sided die (d20)
Rulebook
$14.99
March 17, 2009


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## Echohawk (Jul 28, 2008)

Thanks for posting this thalmin. I'm looking forward to any additional details when you have time to share them 

According to my notes, known D&D releases for 2009 now look like this (excluding novels):

January
Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead
Player's Handbook Power Cards
Martial Power Cards

February
Dungeon Delve		
Caves of Carnage: Dungeon Tiles	 (DU3)

March
Player's Handbook 2		
Assault on Nightwyrm Fortress (P3)
D&D Miniatures: Starter Set
D&D Miniatures: Feywild Booster Packs

April
Arcane Power		
Death's Reach (E1)
Player's Handbook 2 Power Cards		

May
Monster Manual 2


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## wayne62682 (Jul 28, 2008)

I like how they specifically mentions the power cards are *not* randomized, as though they were at one time considering them to *be* randomized.

Martial Powers should be interesting to see, given the "power creep" that was prevalent in 3.5.  Have they learned anything from that fiasco (probably not, since they might be going for the "Games Workshop Effect" in which each new thing is better than the last to persuade people to buy it)?  Only time will tell.


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## thalmin (Jul 28, 2008)

Echohawk said:


> Thanks for posting this thalmin. I'm looking forward to any additional details when you have time to share them
> 
> According to my notes, known D&D releases for 2009 now look like this (excluding novels):
> 
> ...




Correct. Only further catalog additions (catalog only covers Jan-April) exclusive of novels, are Star Wars or miniatures:
January
*The Clone Wars Campaign Guide (SW)*

February
*Imperial Entanglements Booster Pack (SWM)*

March
*Legacy Era Campaign Guide (SW)*
*Feywild Booster Pack (DDM)* 
*Dungeons & Dragons Miniatures Starter Game (DDM)*


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## Klaus (Jul 28, 2008)

thalmin said:


> Correct. Only further catalog additions (catalog only covers Jan-April) exclusive of novels, are Star Wars or miniatures:
> January
> *The Clone Wars Campaign Guide (SW)*
> 
> ...



LEGACY ERA!!!!!???!!!!!

:swoooooooon:


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## Klaus (Jul 28, 2008)

thalmin said:


> Correct. Only further catalog additions (catalog only covers Jan-April) exclusive of novels, are Star Wars or miniatures:
> January
> *The Clone Wars Campaign Guide (SW)*
> 
> ...



LEGACY ERA!!!!!???!!!!!

:swoooooooon:


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## Glyfair (Jul 28, 2008)

wayne62682 said:


> I like how they specifically mentions the power cards are *not* randomized, as though they were at one time considering them to *be* randomized.



Or they've learned that when WotC and cards are used in the same sentence people automatically assume that it will be random and wanted to cut that off from the beginning.


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## thalmin (Jul 28, 2008)

Glyfair said:


> Or they've learned that when WotC and cards are used in the same sentence people automatically assume that it will be random and wanted to cut that off from the beginning.



That's why *I* mentioned it.


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## WhatGravitas (Jul 28, 2008)

wayne62682 said:


> I like how they specifically mentions the power cards are *not* randomized, as though they were at one time considering them to *be* randomized.



Just imagine what you would think now, if neither randomized nor non-randomized would be written out! 

Cheers, LT.


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## Plane Sailing (Jul 28, 2008)

Glyfair said:


> Or they've learned that when WotC and cards are used in the same sentence people automatically assume that it will be random and wanted to cut that off from the beginning.




I'm guessing that is the most likely reason.

Cheers


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## tomBitonti (Jul 28, 2008)

> Player's Handbook Power Cards
> Each non-randomized deck of 100 cards includes all the powers from Player's Handbook for one of the eight classes featured in the book, plus a few blank cards for players to use for other powers.
> Eight decks in all, 2 each per counter display.
> $9.99/deck releases January 20, 2009




Am I understanding this correctly ... to have cards for all of the classes (in just the PHB1) you would need to buy eight different decks?


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## Fifth Element (Jul 28, 2008)

wayne62682 said:


> I like how they specifically mentions the power cards are *not* randomized, as though they were at one time considering them to *be* randomized.



Can you provide a link for that? My recollection is that some people on internet messageboards either suggested or assumed they would be randomized, but that WotC never mentioned such a thing.


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## thalmin (Jul 28, 2008)

tomBitonti said:


> Am I understanding this correctly ... to have cards for all of the classes (in just the PHB1) you would need to buy eight different decks?



And if you only want the cards for the character you are currently playing, you would only need to buy one deck, or two if you are multiclassing.


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## GnomeWorks (Jul 28, 2008)

Fifth Element said:


> Can you provide a link for that? My recollection is that some people on internet messageboards either suggested or assumed they would be randomized, but that WotC never mentioned such a thing.




He is saying that the fact that they pointed out that they aren't random might be due to their possibly having considered to have them randomized at one point in the past.

He isn't saying WotC said that they would be random. He's saying that it's an idea they may have thrown around, since they're specifically calling out that they aren't random.


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## Deset Gled (Jul 28, 2008)

No monk in 2009 makes me a sad panda.


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## Fifth Element (Jul 28, 2008)

GnomeWorks said:


> He is saying that the fact that they pointed out that they aren't random might be due to their possibly having considered to have them randomized at one point in the past.
> 
> He isn't saying WotC said that they would be random. He's saying that it's an idea they may have thrown around, since they're specifically calling out that they aren't random.



Yes, you're right, I misread it.


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## wayne62682 (Jul 28, 2008)

Fifth Element said:


> Can you provide a link for that? My recollection is that some people on internet messageboards either suggested or assumed they would be randomized, but that WotC never mentioned such a thing.




EDIT: GnomeWorks explained it for me 

I don't know if it was, I meant the fact they specifically state it's NOT indicates that at one point it _might have been_.  Usually you don't indicate something is specifically not something... unless it was going to be exactly that at one point.


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## Cadfan (Jul 28, 2008)

...or, you might explicitly point it out because you're worried that someone on an internet forum, perhaps someone posting pseudonymously under a name like wayne62682, might start a furor by speculating wildly about randomized power cards.


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## thalmin (Jul 28, 2008)

Hey, folks. I just made a few notes from a half-page of info about each product. I mentioned non-randomized because I thought it was worth mentioning since WotC and randomized are almost synonymous for some people on these boards. I thought it would clarify the point, not start up some rumors that WotC must have planned to randomize.

I thought it was important that the card sets confirm the number of classes in PHB2, and the lack of new classes in *Martial Powers*. Also, the number of powers per class presented in *Martial Powers* will be similar will be similar to the number in the PHB.


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## Darkwolf71 (Jul 28, 2008)

thalmin said:


> And if you only want the cards for the character you are currently playing, you would only need to buy one deck, or two if you are multiclassing.




Great, if you only ever plan on playing one class. The price of diversity is only 80 fraking bucks per PHB, and $40 per power book.


My frickin eyes are bleeding.


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## Maggan (Jul 28, 2008)

wayne62682 said:


> I don't know if it was, I meant the fact they specifically state it's NOT indicates that at one point it _might have been_.




I would be shocked if I one day learned that WotC didn't at one time explore the idea of collectible power cards. That's what I expect them to do, explore all possible avenues of revenue, and go ahead with those they deem financially viable, while still legal. 

But I don't think the wording of the product description is any kind of evidence of that, if the text is in the product description, then it's just pre-emptive information, because we all know what would happen if they didn't put it in. 

/M


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## arscott (Jul 28, 2008)

Shocked?

Frankly, it's such an obviously dumb idea that I'd by shocked if anyone in WotC even considered it.


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## Ginnel (Jul 28, 2008)

thalmin said:


> Hey, folks. I just made a few notes from a half-page of info about each product. I mentioned non-randomized because I thought it was worth mentioning since WotC and randomized are almost synonymous for some people on these boards. I thought it would clarify the point, not start up some rumors that WotC must have planned to randomize.
> 
> I thought it was important that the card sets confirm the number of classes in PHB2, and the lack of new classes in *Martial Powers*. Also, the number of powers per class presented in *Martial Powers* will be similar will be similar to the number in the PHB.




Yup and its very nice to get a sneak peek like this, Thankies again Thalmin, I really enjoyed the thread where you got the Core rulebooks early as well, keep up the good work.

So thats 2 primal classes gone, 2 more and 2 divine and 2 arcane would be my guess for the line up with the arcane being the sorceror(as a wild mage variant) and hopefully the bard.

I'm unreasonably excited by what the new classes will be, but am also slightly apprehensive in case power creep appears or to a lesser extent if the classes aren't interesting/too samey.


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## Ginnel (Jul 28, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:


> Great, if you only ever plan on playing one class. The price of diversity is only 80 fraking bucks per PHB, and $40 per power book.
> 
> My frickin eyes are bleeding.



"if you are too lazy to make your own" I think you missed that line because getting an index card and writing on it is hardly rocket science or even printing out some of the wonderful ones produced by members of this site.

but for £5 a pop probably £5.99 I might splash out on a set, its only the price of 2 pints after all.


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## Darkwolf71 (Jul 28, 2008)

Ginnel said:


> "if you are too lazy to make your own" I think you missed that line because getting an index card and writing on it is hardly rocket science or even printing out some of the wonderful ones produced by members of this site.
> 
> but for £5 a pop probably £5.99 I might splash out on a set, its only the price of 2 pints after all.




No, I didn't 'miss that line'. In fact we do make our own, color printed and laminated. They are quite nice, actually. That doesn't mean I can't be disgusted about the product.


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## Maggan (Jul 28, 2008)

arscott said:


> Frankly, it's such an obviously dumb idea that I'd by shocked if anyone in WotC even considered it.




Well, I guess it comes down to design philosophies. I try to document each and every idea when it comes to developing a product, even the stupid ones. And then we can look at the stupid ones, and make sure everyone understands why they are stupid (if they indeed are stupid), and make sure that all involved makes an informed decision about developing the idea further or dropping it.

And sometimes, really dumb ideas are the best ideas. Just dismissing ideas out of hand seems a waste to me, and I hope WotC isn't making a habit of it (cue jokes about 4e being proof that they aren't making a habit of dismissing dumb ideas )

/M


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## the Jester (Jul 28, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:


> Great, if you only ever plan on playing one class. The price of diversity is only 80 fraking bucks per PHB, and $40 per power book.
> 
> My frickin eyes are bleeding.




Yeah... sucks that you can't play the game without them, or make your own, or find free ones if you want to.


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## Kobold Avenger (Jul 28, 2008)

So we still don't know when the Eberron Player's Guide comes out, which actually has the full Artificer class write-up in it.

I just have a slight issue with Arcane Power than, since it comes out before the EbPG so it likely won't cover all arcane classes.  Yes I know it's a problem with there going to be 6 arcane classes with Wizard and Warlock from PHB1, Swordmage from FRPG, Bard and Sorcerer from PHB2 and Artificer from EbPG.

Yes, I know the Wizard really does need a lot of help with new material, since it feels a little lacking in some areas with the PHB.  And with the much wanted new warlock pacts, there's enough powers to make it as big as the PHB warlock entry.

Really it would look better if they tried Divine Power first, since by then we'd have the Cleric and Paladin from PHB1, and the highly speculated Inquisitor and Theurge from PHB2 and have the divine power source "complete" with that book.

With Martial Power it's good that there's no new classes, since I can't see how they'd try to come up with more martial classes.  That power source is pretty complete, though I'd like to see some newer options like a ranged attack path for fighters (which could help with my homebrew ideas for a rifleman as a fighter).

I still don't like that I'll have to likely wait till 2010 till we have the monk or psionic classes (with the psion likely existing as a playtest class in late 2009).  Though maybe by then they'll have a book on Aberrant creatures much like Lords of Madness, to go with psionics.

Then again for late 2009, I wonder if they'll bother with a Primal Power book, since it seems that with PHB 2, the 4 proposed primal classes will likely cover all of the Primal power source (barbarian, druid, shaman, W?/witch?/wu jen?) that there needs to be.


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## Merlin the Tuna (Jul 28, 2008)

> Eight decks in all, 2 each per counter display.



What exactly does the "2 each per counter display" mean?  Is that strictly a packaging thing, or does that have some impact on the consumer?


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 28, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:


> No, I didn't 'miss that line'. In fact we do make our own, color printed and laminated. Thet are quite nice, actually. That doesn't mean I can't be disgusted about the product.



So, how much did they cost you? What kind of artwork did you use? 

It seems to me the price is pretty fair. There are approximately 80 powers per class, and if each class powers are included twice, that means 160 cards per deck. 

Of course, it's possible that the cards are actually not that useful. For example, if there isn't a spot where I can write attack and damage values in the card, they become far less useful to me - a player of mine did cards like that, and while they are beautiful and well done, their usability is just lower then the print-outs I made myself.
Or that the art-work sucks (or doesn't exist)


Oh, and what's with racial and feat powers (Channel Divinity feats)? Will they be included?


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## CharlesRyan (Jul 28, 2008)

tomBitonti said:


> Am I understanding this correctly ... to have cards for all of the classes (in just the PHB1) you would need to buy eight different decks?




Exactly how many cards do you want for ten bucks? A typical PHB class has, what, 80? 90 powers? That's half again as many cards as in a typical CCG deck. For a price that's maybe 25% higher than a typical CCG starter deck.

If you're _really_ going to play every class in the PHB, good on ya! But it seems kind of unreasonable to think that fully kitting out for such a broad undertaking wouldn't carry a price tag. $10 a deck is hardly a rip-off, assuming a halfway decent product, so $80 for 8 decks (600 to 700 cards!) doesn't really seem to merit your "disgust."


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 28, 2008)

CharlesRyan said:


> Exactly how many cards do you want for ten bucks? A typical PHB class has, what, 80? 90 powers? That's half again as many cards as in a typical CCG deck. For a price that's maybe 25% higher than a typical CCG starter deck.
> 
> If you're _really_ going to play every class in the PHB, good on ya! But it seems kind of unreasonable to think that fully kitting out for such a broad undertaking wouldn't carry a price tag. $10 a deck is hardly a rip-off, assuming a halfway decent product, so $80 for 8 decks (600 to 700 cards!) doesn't really seem to merit your "disgust."




And it's not like every player has to have all decks. Unless you play in 8 campaigns at the same time, and in each campaign, you all play just one class



			
				me said:
			
		

> It seems to me the price is pretty fair. There are approximately 80 powers per class, and if each class powers are included twice, that means 160 cards per deck



Thalmin thread-forked and noticed that the "2 per counter display" has nothing to do with the contents of the deck. So strike that.  (I assume the fork happened accidentally)


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## Brown Jenkin (Jul 28, 2008)

Of course randomization would be good because it would prevent stores from worrying about which classes are more popular than others and save them from being left with unpopular stock, plus they would only have one SKU to worry about and display space would be less [/sarcasm]


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## Imaro (Jul 28, 2008)

Ginnel said:


> "if you are too lazy to make your own" I think you missed that line because getting an index card and writing on it is hardly rocket science or even printing out some of the wonderful ones produced by members of this site.
> 
> but for £5 a pop probably £5.99 I might splash out on a set, its only the price of 2 pints after all.






the Jester said:


> Yeah... sucks that you can't play the game without them, or make your own, or find free ones if you want to.




Wow, so you can't have an opinion on whether something is worth the price or not... because you can "do it yourself"?  This is the same justification I saw people use to defend WotC producing those terrible character sheets, and it's a cop out.  I can make my own classes and powers... so does that mean if I am disappointed in how WotC designs the Martial Power book... I don't have a right to be since I could "do it myself"?  

Personally I won't be buying them because there are already great cards on the internet for free... however if they meet the requirements below I may purchase them...if not, I do not think they are a particularly good deal.



CharlesRyan said:


> Exactly how many cards do you want for ten bucks? A typical PHB class has, what, 80? 90 powers? That's half again as many cards as in a typical CCG deck. For a price that's maybe 25% higher than a typical CCG starter deck.
> 
> If you're _really_ going to play every class in the PHB, good on ya! But it seems kind of unreasonable to think that fully kitting out for such a broad undertaking wouldn't carry a price tag. $10 a deck is hardly a rip-off, assuming a halfway decent product, so $80 for 8 decks (600 to 700 cards!) doesn't really seem to merit your "disgust."




I will say you could be right... if we get some good artwork on these cards (and no I'm not talking about reprinted artwork)... and the official errata for all the powers I would say they may be worth it.  But if it's just the exact layout of the powers from the books printed onto cardstock, with no errata...  yeah I'd be pretty disappointed at $9.99 per class.  It's not like there is rule design & development, playtesting or anything else involved with the cards...like there was with Inn-Fighting and Dragon Ante.  


SIDE NOTE: I think this it's also a case of WotC really waiting too long to get these out there, though this again causes me to consider these as firmly targeted at new players, just like the character sheets.


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## Echohawk (Jul 28, 2008)

Thalmin, when you have a chance, would you mind checking the novels in the catalog against this list?

January
Canticle (reissue) [Forgotten Realms, Cleric Quintet 1]
The Amber Enchantress (reissue) [Dark Sun, Prism Pentad 3]
The Elven Nations Trilogy Omnibus [Dragonlance]
The Fanged Crown [Forgotten Realms, The Wilds 1]
The Legend of Drizzt Collector's Edition, Book III [Forgotten Realms]
Brass Dragon Codex [Mirrorstone]
A Practical Guide to Faeries [Mirrorstone]

February
Agents of Artifice [Planeswalker -- is this Planescape?]
The Last Sacrifice: Sentinel Marshals [Eberron]
The Silent Blade (reissue) [Forgotten Realms, Legend of Drizzt 11]
The Sleep of Reason [Ravenloft?]
Unholy [Forgotten Realms, Haunted Lands 3]

March
Corsair [Forgotten Realms, Blades of Moonsea 2]
In Sylvan Shadows (reissue) [Forgotten Realms, Cleric Quintet 2]
Obsidian Oracle (reissue) [Dark Sun, Prism Pentad 4]
Renegade Wizards [Dragonlance, Tracy Hickman presents the Anvil of Time 3]

April
Downshadow [Forgotten Realms, Ed Greenwood Presents Waterdeep 3]
Madness in Harmony: A Novel of the Mists [Ravenloft?]
The Spine of the World (reissue) [Forgotten Realms, Legend of Drizzt 12]
The Threat from the Sea Omnibus [Forgotten Realms]

June
Dragon War (hardcover) [Eberron, The Draconic Prophecies 3]
Green Dragon Codex [Mirrorstone]

July
The Crystal Mountain [Forgotten Realms, Empyrean Odyssey 3]

August
Goblin Nation [Dragonlance, Stonetellers 3]
The Fate of Thorbardin [Dragonlance, Dwarf Home 3]

September
Silver Dragon Codex [Mirrorstone]

October
The Ghost King [Forgotten Realms, Transitions 3]


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## doctorhook (Jul 28, 2008)

It's worth mentioning, what of "powers" that aren't "powers" in the PH? For example, I've made cards for Second Wind, I've made cards for class features, (Sneak Attack, Arcane Implement Mastery, Warlock's Curse, Combat Challenge, and more). And of course, what about Magic Items?

When can we expect to see these things in card form?

I'm intrigued by these cards. If they cover all my bases, I'll likely buy them. However, until I'm certain they do cover all my bases, I'll be sticking with my own system, for consistency's sake.


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## Darkwolf71 (Jul 28, 2008)

CharlesRyan said:


> Exactly how many cards do you want for ten bucks? A typical PHB class has, what, 80? 90 powers? That's half again as many cards as in a typical CCG deck. For a price that's maybe 25% higher than a typical CCG starter deck.
> 
> If you're _really_ going to play every class in the PHB, good on ya! But it seems kind of unreasonable to think that fully kitting out for such a broad undertaking wouldn't carry a price tag. $10 a deck is hardly a rip-off, assuming a halfway decent product, so $80 for 8 decks (600 to 700 cards!) doesn't really seem to merit your "disgust."



To lessen confusion, It was I who claimed 'disgust', not tomBitonti.

Now technically, sure. I'll cede the point that, 10 bucks for 80 cards is not a horrible price. My disgust comes from the realization that the game was designed with this in mind. They have made D&D into a game that practically requires the use of minis and cards. Which convieniantly, oh look... they just happen to sell.

It's no longer D&D, it's fraking Magic: The Role Playing Game.


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## The Little Raven (Jul 28, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:


> My disgust comes from the realization that the game was designed with this in mind.




A game was designed with the ability to produce supplements in mind? HOLY SHADES OF EVERY EDITION OF THE GAME, BATMAN!


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## Darkwolf71 (Jul 28, 2008)

The Little Raven said:


> A game was designed with the ability to produce supplements in mind? HOLY SHADES OF EVERY EDITION OF THE GAME, BATMAN!




Is that the best you can do? Really, if you have a different opinion fine, please share it. If you're going to reply with flame bait, go do it at gleemax.


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## Imaro (Jul 28, 2008)

The Little Raven said:


> A game was designed with the ability to produce supplements in mind? HOLY SHADES OF EVERY EDITION OF THE GAME, BATMAN!




Yeah, but there is a line between the game being centered around these things (minis, dungeon tiles, power cards) and a game that uses them as enhancing elements.  IMHO, 4e falls into the category of being centered around these things.).  

4e was touted as playing faster... but if you don't have your powers on some type of card it plays way slower than previous editions.

People claim it is just as mini-centric as 3e... but IMHO, it is definitely more mini-centric and *requires* some sort of grid to track spatial relations.

There are numerous marks and conditions which continually change on a round per round basis and thus require various types of marker for each.  And I have no doubt WotC will sell official markers for these at some point.

In fact my opinion is that the game was designed to push people towards using the DDI... but still be just manageable enough that one can play it... with all these "optional" enhancements.  I also think WotC is banking on alot of people sooner or later coming to the realization that, "Wow! It would be cheaper and less space if I just use the DDI".  Too bad they haven't pulled it together yet.


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## Alaxk Knight of Galt (Jul 28, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:


> No, I didn't 'miss that line'. In fact we do make our own, color printed and laminated. They are quite nice, actually. That doesn't mean I can't be disgusted about the product.




Why would you be disgusted by the product.  This seems a perfect example of money versus time.  You can spend 10 bucks and have everything you need and more for a PC or spend your time creating nice looking cards yourself.  Is the time spent making the cards yourself worth the ten dollars you saved in not purchasing them?  Your call


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## The Little Raven (Jul 28, 2008)

Imaro said:


> Yeah, but there is a line between the game being centered around these things (minis, dungeon tiles, power cards) and a game that uses them as enhancing elements.  IMHO, 4e falls into the category of being centered around these things.).




Except people have expressed the ability to play without any of these things, thus they are not required. If they were, play would be completely impossible without them.



> 4e was touted as playing faster... but if you don't have your powers on some type of card it plays way slower than previous editions.




BS. I don't use power cards, as I haven't found a set I like enough to invest in printing them nicely and having them laminated, and things still run faster than they did in 3e.



> People claim it is just as mini-centric as 3e... but IMHO, it is definitely more mini-centric and *requires* some sort of grid to track spatial relations.




I'd say 3e is equally mini-centric, with things like having to measure line-of-effect from the corner of a square, as well as picking an origin point where 4 squares meet in order to create bursts.



> There are numerous marks and conditions which continually change on a round per round basis and thus require various types of marker for each.




And this is different from 3e, with it's round-based durations, how? In fact, 4e has less conditions (16; 17 with Bloodied) to track than 3e did (38).



> In fact my opinion is that the game was designed to push people towards using the DDI.




Well, if that's their intent, then they're doing a bad job by making the game easier than ever to manage at the table, and by not having the DDI available.


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## Fifth Element (Jul 28, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:


> It's no longer D&D, it's fraking Magic: The Role Playing Game.



Is that the best you can do? Really, if you have a different opinion fine, please share it. If you're going to reply with flame bait, go do it at gleemax.


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## Imaro (Jul 28, 2008)

The Little Raven said:


> Except people have expressed the ability to play without any of these things, thus they are not required. If they were, play would be completely impossible without them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Okay Mourn, whatever.  You have your *opinion*, I have mine and we rarely if ever find common ground or change each others minds.  All you have is anecdotal evidence and all I have is anecdotal evidence... so really, what's the point of us even debating?


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## Darkwolf71 (Jul 28, 2008)

Fifth Element said:


> Is that the best you can do? Really, if you have a different opinion fine, please share it. If you're going to reply with flame bait, go do it at gleemax.


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## Jhaelen (Jul 28, 2008)

I'm glad they're releasing power cards and I'm not at all sure, they've planned this all along.

While I am pretty sure the WotC cards won't be as good as some of the fan-made ones, I'll still prefer the WotC ones if they're sufficiently sturdy. My problem is not having access to a good printer. Printing them at a professional print-shop would _definitely_ be more expensive than 10$ per set.

I won't buy all of the sets though (at last initially), only the ones I actually require to play my character(s).


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## Imaro (Jul 28, 2008)

Another thing that worries me about WotC selling "official" power cards is what their stance will be regarding the distribution of the filled out power cards, especially since we still haven't heard a peep about their fansite policy.  If they were to pull something like this, it would again be another reason I would not purchase these cards... and probably would be through purchasing WotC stuff period.


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## Mercule (Jul 28, 2008)

arscott said:


> Frankly, it's such an obviously dumb idea that I'd by shocked if anyone in WotC even considered it.



It's also just plain obvious.  If it wasn't brought up, it'd be the elephant in the corner, so better to get it out and be officially done with it.

Plus, if you have ever attended brainstorming and idea generation training/workshops, there's a basic rule.  One of the first things they tell you and continue to drill into your head is that any idea can generate another idea.  Everything should be put on the whiteboard (or whatever) and reviewed later.  That one thing is probably what cripples more so-called "brainstorming sessions" than anything else.

If the idea was never put on the table, it would only be because the people at WotC were inept.  Not that its inclusion shows masterful planning.  I just think you're holding your shock and condemnation by the wrong end.



Darkwolf71 said:


> No, I didn't 'miss that line'. In fact we do make our own, color printed and laminated. They are quite nice, actually. That doesn't mean I can't be disgusted about the product.



Fair enough.  I have neither the artistic talent nor the time to make my own -- at least not having them look like anything more than scrawls on an index card.  Since I've come to a point where I appreciate presentation value in my gaming tools, I'd pay $10 for a deck.

I'll caveat that by saying that I wouldn't do it for a one-shot or buy all the cards at once.  But, definitely for a long-running character/campaign.  My current 3.5 game has been running for 4+ years and I don't think $10-20 for spell cards would have been considered unreasonable for either the wizard or the druid.


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## tomBitonti (Jul 28, 2008)

CharlesRyan said:


> Exactly how many cards do you want for ten bucks? A typical PHB class has, what, 80? 90 powers? That's half again as many cards as in a typical CCG deck. For a price that's maybe 25% higher than a typical CCG starter deck.
> 
> If you're _really_ going to play every class in the PHB, good on ya! But it seems kind of unreasonable to think that fully kitting out for such a broad undertaking wouldn't carry a price tag. $10 a deck is hardly a rip-off, assuming a halfway decent product, so $80 for 8 decks (600 to 700 cards!) doesn't really seem to merit your "disgust."




Ok, I'll take the requisite break before replying.  

I don't think that that is a fair reply.  I didn't say how many that I expected.  I was not comparing the price of a deck to the price of CCG cards.  I was also not conveying disgust.  (I do think that this term is inappropriately strong in regards to my question.)  However, the fact of my question, that I chose to ask about this total price, shows that I find the price significant, and in context I think that it is reasonable to infer that I do find the price to be high.

I am divided on whether having each class be encapsulated as a single deck is an overall plus or a minus.  The underfactoring of the power design allows each class to be self contained (that's good -- nice and simple and easy to use), but it seems to bloat the number of powers and make understanding them hard (that's bad).  Uncharitably, I wondered if having distinct power decks was a design point when the power lists were created.  I also did wonder how the game came to be designed such that the game utilities add up to $80, on top of the $25 - $40 ish price for the players handbook.  (I wonder, too, if there are alternatives: How many powers can fit on a single card?  Could the decks be split across tiers -- 1-10, 11-20, 21-30?)

Ultimately, is $10 a deck too high?  I haven't seen the ultimate product, so I can't really make a complete judgement on that.

To provide background on myself, to explain my outlook on the game: I am a longtime D&D player.  I purchased most of the 3.5E books (both from WoTC and from 3rd parties, and I do mean most of them.)  I purchased the 4.0E core books and initial modules (I'm a fiend for modules).  But, I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the new game, and don't think that I will continue purchasing the books or online products.


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## Remathilis (Jul 28, 2008)

Imaro said:


> Another thing that worries me about WotC selling "official" power cards is what their stance will be regarding the distribution of the filled out power cards, especially since we still haven't heard a peep about their fansite policy.  If they were to pull something like this, it would again be another reason I would not purchase these cards... and probably would be through purchasing WotC stuff period.




Probably the same as character sheets.

The GSL doesn't allow you to republish the actual info on a given class/power, just its name and relative calculations (in the form of npc stat blocks, for example). Since reprinting info on powers is taboo, no company can create power cards for profit.

HOWEVER

Much like how WotC sells a character sheet pack (abit a poor one) but allows modders to make their own PDF sheets for download (but not for profit) I'm sure PDFs of power cards made for download and profit will not be taken as an affront to WotC's power cards. Assuming their cards are decent (M:TG level) cardstock and nicely done, more than a few people will drop the cash on a deck or two. WotC has no real fear from people making these puppies on their PCs and printing them on cardstock with their inkjets. In fact, I'd wager a complete set of card would run about $10 per class if you printed your own on an inkjet anyway. 

So, making a PDF of all wizard powers? Probably not going to bother WotC. Making your own decks and selling them? Trouble. Same as character sheets.


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## Kunimatyu (Jul 28, 2008)

Very cool!

Assuming I get to be a player instead of just the DM for 4e, I'm totally picking up warlord and warlock cards.


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## Darkwolf71 (Jul 28, 2008)

Mercule said:


> Fair enough.  I have neither the artistic talent nor the time to make my own -- at least not having them look like anything more than scrawls on an index card.  Since I've come to a point where I appreciate presentation value in my gaming tools, I'd pay $10 for a deck.
> 
> I'll caveat that by saying that I wouldn't do it for a one-shot or buy all the cards at once.  But, definitely for a long-running character/campaign.  My current 3.5 game has been running for 4+ years and I don't think $10-20 for spell cards would have been considered unreasonable for either the wizard or the druid.



I'm just glad I'm DMing at this point. It's too obvious that this was part of the marketing scheme from the get go. Cards are too perfect a solution to tracking encounter/daily powers. When we made our first batch and players started 'tapping' them, I nearly puked. It was quite obvious that all the 'video gamey' complaints were way off base. 4e is not a computer game, it is Magic. 

They created a game that would naturally lend itself to card use, then a few months later, after allowing demand to build, convieniantly come out with decks of 'official' power cards. Don't get me wrong, it's marketing genious. It will likely make them boatloads of cash. But, if they had announced these cards prior to release... oh man it would not have been recieved well. By waiting, they can now be seen as fulfilling a 'need'. No one even consideres that it is a manufactured need.


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## Echohawk (Jul 28, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:


> It's too obvious that this was part of the marketing scheme from the get go.



I'm not entirely convinced that this is the case. If WotC had planned up front to have the power cards be a major part of the marketing strategy, I think the PH sets would be releasing later this year, instead of January 2009.

Judging from the simultaneous release of the PH and Martial Power decks in January, compared to the April release of the PH2 decks the month after the release of the PH2, my suspicion is that these cards are a relatively late addition to the planned product line. Supporting this is the fact that the cards do not yet appear in the product section of the WotC web site, nor on Amazon. (I'm also guessing that there is no picture of the cards in the Spring 2009 catalog, and I'd be interested if thalmin could confirm or deny that guess.)

So my theory is that while the idea of power cards was probably floating around all along, they weren't part of the initial release schedule and have now been added (or brought forward) based on demand.


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## Cadfan (Jul 28, 2008)

Who cares when it was planned?  They're gaming accessories.  Its like whining that they wrote a game that works well with a DM screen, then tried to sell you one.


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## Darkwolf71 (Jul 28, 2008)

I don't know, I could probably come up with several reasons whay the first set might be delayed. You would be hard pressed to convince me that these haven't been in development for some time.


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## Alaxk Knight of Galt (Jul 28, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:


> I'm just glad I'm DMing at this point. It's too obvious that this was part of the marketing scheme from the get go. Cards are too perfect a solution to tracking encounter/daily powers. When we made our first batch and players started 'tapping' them, I nearly puked. It was quite obvious that all the 'video gamey' complaints were way off base. 4e is not a computer game, it is Magic.
> 
> They created a game that would naturally lend itself to card use, then a few months later, after allowing demand to build, convieniantly come out with decks of 'official' power cards. Don't get me wrong, it's marketing genious. It will likely make them boatloads of cash. But, if they had announced these cards prior to release... oh man it would not have been recieved well. By waiting, they can now be seen as fulfilling a 'need'. No one even consideres that it is a manufactured need.




From reading your posts in this thread, you seem to be upset that WotC wishes to make money selling DnD related products (Minis, power cards, DDI accounts, etc) to those who wish to purchase them.

Personally, I wish them all the luck.  The products they do produce that I think are neat/fun/worth purchasing, I will buy.  Those that do not meet my needs, I will pass on.  That's the great thing about capitalism, many companies produce products that they want me to purchase and I (and my fellow consumers) select the products that we like the best to become successful.

As with any DnD, gaming product, or general item; I will determine if I like it, if I think it is worth them money to purchase it, and if I need such a product.  I do not begrudge the company for making a product to sell me, I vote whether I like it or not with my dollar.


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## Adrift (Jul 28, 2008)

I like that they are non-random and that they are organized in a fashion wherein I wouldn't be collecting cards for classes I have no intention of playing.  Some classes just don't appeal to me.  There are some fan-created, high quality cards already in existence however, so I may just use those if I decide to play a class I don't normally play.  I'm sure the WotC cards will be high quality and I'll get a couple sets for my favorite classes however.

WotC seems to have neglected Magic Item cards, or did I miss something?


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## Mercule (Jul 28, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:


> It was quite obvious that all the 'video gamey' complaints were way off base. 4e is not a computer game, it is Magic.



Now, this is a legitimate concern.  In fact, it's one I share.  Based on the reports so far, I'm willing to give the game a shot before condemning it.  But, as I really, really hate CCGs, I'll be drop-kicking it if it actually does feel like a CCG.

I've played games before that could or did use cards and didn't feel like a CCG, so the power cards alone don't condemn 4e for me.



> They created a game that would naturally lend itself to card use, then a few months later, after allowing demand to build, convieniantly come out with decks of 'official' power cards. Don't get me wrong, it's marketing genious. It will likely make them boatloads of cash. But, if they had announced these cards prior to release... oh man it would not have been recieved well. By waiting, they can now be seen as fulfilling a 'need'. No one even consideres that it is a manufactured need.



Good aids can really speed up play.  They can also help bolster the weaker players (social gamers, semi-interested spouses, newbies, just plain busy, etc.), too.  

If WotC has an otherwise solid system (that's key) that they designed with an eye toward making play aids available, that's actually a plus for me.  I certainly don't want the cards to be nearly indispensable, but I don't think these are.  I'm betting that I could run a 4e wizard without power cards just as well as I could run a 3e sorcerer without spell cards -- which is to say any weakness stems from my ability rather than a systemic requirement for an accessory.  

I'm actually betting that 4e cards are, at worst, as necessary as monster stat cards are for a 3e conjurer or druid -- more likely, the 3e character has more need for the cards.  Since I'm starting a 6th level master conjurer tomorrow night, I'll have personal experience there soon enough.


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## Mouseferatu (Jul 28, 2008)

Echohawk said:


> February
> Agents of Artifice [Planeswalker -- is this Planescape?]




I can answer this one.

Nope, it's not Planescape; it's not, in fact, a D&D novel. It's the first of a new line of Magic novels, focused on planeswalker characters. (It's also, for the record, a novel that more or less stands alone, and was written to be accessible to people new to Magic: the Gathering, so while it makes a lot of use of Magic's history, it doesn't require much in the way of prior knowledge.)


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## Mouseferatu (Jul 28, 2008)

I cannot begin to state how fully I disagree with the people claiming that D&D plays like a CCG.

In my own group, only half of us are using home-made power cards. Some of us feel they speed things up, some of us don't. Me, I don't think it makes a huge difference, as long as you have your powers summarized on _something_--a sheet of paper works just fine. Frankly, I find it no more complex than keeping track of which spells I'd cast as a wizard or druid in 3E.


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## Echohawk (Jul 28, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> I can answer this one. Nope, it's not Planescape; it's not, in fact, a D&D novel.



Thanks for clearing that up.

(And also "bother", I was hoping for a Planescape novel. I don't suppose you'd like to pitch a Planescape novel to WotC, Mouse? )


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## Maggan (Jul 28, 2008)

The fact that there was lots and lots of different cards created by fans for 3e obviously played a part in WotC deeming this to be a good idea.

We've made our own Feat, Spell and whatnot cards for 3.5 forever and ever. We're making cards for 4e as well, and for WotC to come out with this is one of the most obvious ideas I've ever seen.

Unless I'm mistaken, there was players hoping for this even before 4th edition was released, so I think WotC is filling a very real and tangible need for some gamers out there.

EDIT: also, creating something that the players will buy, in addition to the PH, is probably a very good thing when it comes to the economy of the new edition. More things players can buy (instead of just the DM), equals more money for WotC, which equals a more healthy D&D, for good and for worse.

/M


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## Mouseferatu (Jul 28, 2008)

Echohawk said:


> Thanks for clearing that up.
> 
> (And also "bother", I was hoping for a Planescape novel. I don't suppose you'd like to pitch a Planescape novel to WotC, Mouse? )




Heh. Given the recent refocus in their fiction department, I'm not sure it'd do much good.

(Yes, Planescape is technically a D&D property, but--especially with the new 4E cosmology--I doubt it's a core _enough_ property to qualify.)


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## Mercule (Jul 28, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> I cannot begin to state how fully I disagree with the people claiming that D&D plays like a CCG.
> 
> In my own group, only half of us are using home-made power cards. Some of us feel they speed things up, some of us don't. Me, I don't think it makes a huge difference, as long as you have your powers summarized on _something_--a sheet of paper works just fine. Frankly, I find it no more complex than keeping track of which spells I'd cast as a wizard or druid in 3E.



Hey, don't take my statements the wrong way.

I haven't played enough to actually have an opinion.  I'm just saying that I can at least see where that argument comes from, since you've got a card-oriented mechanic where you discard most powers after use.  It's what I got on my read-through, but I'm mostly trusting people like you who have played it, when you say it ain't.  I don't understand the WoW arguments.


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## Mouseferatu (Jul 28, 2008)

Mercule said:


> Hey, don't take my statements the wrong way.




Oh, I'm not. My comment wasn't directed specifically at you. 

I'm just stunned it's even an issue for some people, when it really is no different than people using cards or checklists for spells in prior editions. (And in fact, TSR sold spell cards for 2E.)


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## Eridanis (Jul 28, 2008)

Please keep the discussion polite and on-topic. In fact, I'd suggest forking a new thread to discuss the card decks, and keep this thread for general discussion of the catalog.

Thanks, again, thalmin!


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## Darkwolf71 (Jul 28, 2008)

Ok, let me clarify my statment. I for one have never played Magic, I do have lots of friends who do and I have watched many games/tournaments.

At the same time I am not 'playing' 4e, I am DMing it. So, again I am watching others play it.

Once we had cards it quickly became the norm to 'tap'  or turn sideways a power card when the associated power had been used. After a Short Rest eligable powers were returned to play position. So, yes from an observational point of view, it plays very much like Magic with Minis. Hence my earlier comment about Magic: The Roleplaying Game.

So, it may or may not 'feel' like playing Magic, I honestly have no idea but it certainly 'looks' like playing Magic.



Edit:
Sorry, Erindanis. I was finishing my reply when you posted. If someone else wants to fork it, I'll repost there. As it is, I've had my say.


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## mach1.9pants (Jul 28, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> I cannot begin to state how fully I disagree with the people claiming that D&D plays like a CCG.
> 
> In my own group, only half of us are using home-made power cards. Some of us feel they speed things up, some of us don't. Me, I don't think it makes a huge difference, as long as you have your powers summarized on _something_--a sheet of paper works just fine. Frankly, I find it no more complex than keeping track of which spells I'd cast as a wizard or druid in 3E.



THIS. My players (and my DM NPC) all _have_ cards but one of the players just normally refers to his char sheet. The cards don't come out. It is just like the DM screen or any other extra. You don't in anyway need it but, for some, it is nice to have. And if there is a market then WotC should exploit it! If you don't like it don't buy it.
I like the cards, but think there maybe too many when we get to higher levels to easily fit around the table so they might eventually fall by the wayside. But I won't be buying them when the fan made ones are excellent in themselves, they are fine printed on cheap cardstock in B&W
Anders00 set are awesome! http://www.enworld.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4274554&postcount=568

Edit: Sorry, Thalmin, I was searching for Ander00 MSE post


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## SteveC (Jul 29, 2008)

As someone who has been a bit of a critic of WotC recently, could I just step in and ask our community to give them a bit of a break here? When the new power structure (at-wills, encounters, dailys) came out, the idea of cards was a very popular one, and many people _asked_ WotC to make the product. You may argue that 4E was designed with this in mind, but the idea of these cards is something that many EnWorlders have been talking about for months.

Yes, there are free versions of these cards, and if you want to put in the time, energy and money to print them out, more power to you! Our current group does not use cards, but there are several members who would benefit greatly from having them. And others who have said "great idea, where can I get 'em?"

But to criticize WotC for giving people so much of what they were asking for? It smacks of a "darned if you do, darned if you don't" mentality.

It's just my $.02, as someone who might likely buy one or two packs of these things period, and certainly won't get the whole set, but nonetheless thinks it's a great idea.

--Steve


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## Fifth Element (Jul 29, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:


> So, it may or may not 'feel' like playing Magic, I honestly have no idea but it certainly 'looks' like playing Magic.



This is quite a leap. Does Magic often have long stretches of people doing nothing but talking? Does it involve a lot of die-rolling? Does it often involve moving minis around a battlemat?

This is like that Diablo 2 thread. You see one small, specific aspect of the game that reminds you of some other game, and use that to assert that 4E is no longer D&D but that other game.

Edit: Yes, this should probably be forked. Or stopped entirely.


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## doctorhook (Jul 29, 2008)

No one commented on the question I asked earlier. Since it appears there will be cards for every class power...- Will there be power cards for basic attacks and utilities, such as Melee Basic, Ranged Basic, Second Wind, First Aid, Intimidate?
- Will there be cards for class features that operate like powers but are not presented as such? For example, Arcane Implement Mastery, Sneak Attack, or Combat Challenge? (Some might debate the usefulness/"powerness" of these abilities, but I have cards of them for the same reason I have cards of attack powers: to keep me out of the PH when I'm at the table.)
- Will there be cards for magic items and their powers?​Since, at this moment, the answer to all of the above is probably, "I don't know," does anyone else think there should be?

I'm interested in cards that cover the above. How about everyone else?


----------



## HDTVDinner (Jul 29, 2008)

Echohawk said:


> February
> Dungeon Delve




Any clues as to what this is?


----------



## Henry (Jul 29, 2008)

Write me down as "confused by the mandatory cards" thing, too. If people haven't required cards to keep track of their wizard/cleric/druid spells over the past eight years, they sure aren't going to need cards for 4e - in fact, less so because high-level PCs carry fewer available resources at any one time than in previous editions.  The minis complaint, I can see, because people kind of wrote those out of existance with their own house rules in editions prior to 3e, and you have to "guesstimate" or modify a whole lot of powers in 4e that deal with squares of movement.


----------



## Echohawk (Jul 29, 2008)

HDTVDinner said:


> Any clues as to what this is?



Nope, there isn't even a description on the WotC product page yet.


----------



## Merlin the Tuna (Jul 29, 2008)

To echo doctorhook's questions, it'd also be nice to know whether a class deck includes powers from the class's paragon paths.


----------



## thalmin (Jul 29, 2008)

*Dungeon Delve*



HDTVDinner said:


> Any clues as to what this is?




From the catalog:

*Dungeon Delve*
 A *D&D* Adventure by David Noonan and Bill Slavicsek
_Dungeon Delve_ provides the DM withan array of small, easy-to-run dungeons each especially designed for a night of gaming.
This book is designed for groups looking for an exciting night of monster-slay9ngwithout the prep time. It contains dozens of self-contained easy-to-run mini-dungeons, or "delves," each one crafted for a few hours of game-play.
The book includes delves for 1st- to 3oth-level characters, and features dozens of iconic monsters for the heroes to battle. Dungeon Masters can run these delves as one-shot adventures or weave them into their campaign.
*Key Selling Points*

This book has encounters for all levels of characters, from 1st to 30th.
DMs can drop each of the mini-dungeons into their games at a moment's notice.
Based on the extremely popular "Delve" events held at gaming conventions.
Every delve is designed to use existing *D&D* Dungeon Tiles and *D&D* Miniatures.
Hardcover, 192 pages, $29.95, February 17, 2009


----------



## HDTVDinner (Jul 29, 2008)

thalmin said:


> From the catalog:
> 
> *Dungeon Delve*
> A *D&D* Adventure by David Noonan and Bill Slavicsek
> ...




Wow! Thats pretty sweet! Thanks for the info!


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 29, 2008)

Henry said:


> Write me down as "confused by the mandatory cards" thing, too. If people haven't required cards to keep track of their wizard/cleric/druid spells over the past eight years, they sure aren't going to need cards for 4e - in fact, less so because high-level PCs carry fewer available resources at any one time than in previous editions.  The minis complaint, I can see, because people kind of wrote those out of existance with their own house rules in editions prior to 3e, and you have to "guesstimate" or modify a whole lot of powers in 4e that deal with squares of movement.



My real question is - why didn't we think of spell cards as a prop earlier? (I mean it is not a new idea, but it wasn't widely used or suggested). What is different between earlier editions and 4E that makes people suddenly interested in it.

My guess would be:
- This is the first time every class benefits from cards.
- Compared to a 3E Wizard spellbook, the number of powers/spells that you need per game session is manageable. While you might have ~80 powers per class, you only need 8-24 per character. 
- The way the powers are written down is a lot more manageable. Some earlier edition spells had widely different amounts of text describing the text, and a lot of information was 'hidden' in that text. Fitting this on a card can sometimes be difficult, and parsing the information out of the card is not really easier then from the book.


----------



## Dinkeldog (Jul 29, 2008)

I don't know, Mustrum.  I was using them in 2nd Edition.


----------



## Mercule (Jul 29, 2008)

thalmin said:


> From the catalog:
> 
> *Dungeon Delve*
> Stuff



Sold!


----------



## Glyfair (Jul 30, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> My real question is - why didn't we think of spell cards as a prop earlier? (I mean it is not a new idea, but it wasn't widely used or suggested). What is different between earlier editions and 4E that makes people suddenly interested in it.



Indeed, it's not even a new product idea.

Wizard Spell Cards
Deck of Priest Spells
Deck of Magical Items
Deck of Psionic Powers

True, they didn't sell very well (I've rarely seen them, and mostly in backrooms at gaming stores).


----------



## CharlesRyan (Jul 30, 2008)

doctorhook said:


> No one commented on the question I asked earlier. Since it appears there will be cards for every class power...- Will there be power cards for basic attacks and utilities, such as Melee Basic, Ranged Basic, Second Wind, First Aid, Intimidate?
> - Will there be cards for class features that operate like powers but are not presented as such? For example, Arcane Implement Mastery, Sneak Attack, or Combat Challenge? (Some might debate the usefulness/"powerness" of these abilities, but I have cards of them for the same reason I have cards of attack powers: to keep me out of the PH when I'm at the table.)
> - Will there be cards for magic items and their powers?​Since, at this moment, the answer to all of the above is probably, "I don't know," does anyone else think there should be?
> 
> I'm interested in cards that cover the above. How about everyone else?




I am. I've been using homemade cards since playtest. I make cards for every power my character has, including racial powers, second wind, powers that come from magic items, and so on. It just makes it easier to manage every option from the same pool of information.

Unfortunately, I've seen no indication one way or the other concerning these non-class-related powers, so I'm guessing they won't be in the class decks. Could be wrong, of course. And if they aren't, maybe the class decks will come with some blank or customizable cards.


----------



## Echohawk (Jul 30, 2008)

CharlesRyan said:


> And if they aren't, maybe the class decks will come with some blank or customizable cards.




Indeedy... 



thalmin said:


> *Player's Handbook Power Cards*
> Each non-randomized deck of 100 cards includes all the powers from Player's Handbook for one of the eight classes featured in the book, plus *a few blank cards for players to use for other powers*.


----------



## CharlesRyan (Jul 30, 2008)

Excellent! (Not that I couldn't have made my own for the "missing" powers, but it will be nice for them to match.)


----------



## Schmoe (Jul 30, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> I cannot begin to state how fully I disagree with the people claiming that D&D plays like a CCG.




Thanks Mouse.  I'm having a very hard time understanding why people feel like this is being forced upon them.  It seems to me the cards are like any other game accessory.  You don't need them to play.  At all.  If you think they might be nice to have, they're available.

BTW, does anyone remember the spell cards from 3rd edition?  Do you really think 3rd edition was designed to force you to use spell cards?  How is this different?


----------



## Schmoe (Jul 30, 2008)

thalmin said:


> *Player's Handbook 2*
> The book adds a new power source for 4th Edition D&D: classes using the new primal power source include the barbarian and the druid (no other classes named).  (The cover lists Arcane, Divine and Primal Heroes.)
> Hardcover, 224 pages, $34.95 releases March 17, 2009




Back on topic, I'm really excited to see this!  I'm beginning to like how 4e expands with new classes.  I just hope I manage to find time for a game before this is out.


----------



## thalmin (Jul 30, 2008)

Now that things are returning to normal for me, here is beginning of the usual catalog write-up:
note: this has beenupdated into the original post

RPGs

*Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead*
A *D&D* Supplement by Bruce R. Cordell, Eytan Bernstein, and Brian James
_Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead_ depicts a host of new undead, including new varieties of zombies, wraiths, skeletons, ghouls, and vampires. _Open Grave_ also introduces several completely new types of undead, such as moongaunts, forsaken shells, and death oozes, to name just a few.
The sourcebook also provides information about undead origins, tactics, myths, lairs, behaviors, and more. In addition, this book provides elaboratelair entries (including tactical encounters) for undead at each tier of play. Broad story and campaign elements in _Open Grave_ give DMs ready-to-play material that can be easily incorporated into a game, such as undead templates and power substitutions, adventure hooks and quests, and statistics for unique undead such as Acerak and Vecna.

Hardcover, 228 pages, $29.95 
January 20, 2009

*Player's Handbook Power Cards*
A *D&D* Accessory
Players using _*Player's Handbook*_ Power Cards don't need to crack open a rulebook every time they cast a spell - all the crucial informatoin is right in front of their eyes.
Each and every class power appearing in the *Player's Handbook* has its own card. Simply select the cards for your character's powers and you're ready to play!
Each deck of 100 cards includes all the powers from *Player's Handbook* for one of the eight classes featured in the book, plus a few blank cards for players to use for other powers.
The display box includes sixteen decks of power cards: two decks apiece for the cleric, fighter, paladin, ranger, rogue, warlock, warlord, and wizard.
*Key Selling Points*

Nonradomized: Each deck includes every power appearing in the Player's Handbook for its class
Each deck is designed for a specific class, making it an easy purchasing decision for players
Playtesting shows that combat cards are fun and easy to use and also speed up the game
Perfect companion product to the Player's Handbook
The only official power cards for *D&D*
$9.99
January 20,2009

*Martial Power Cards*
A *D&D* Accessory
Players using _Martial Power_ Cards don't need to crack open a rulebook every time they swing a sword - all the crucial informatoin is right in front of their eyes.
Each and every power appearing in the _Martial Power_ sourcebook has its own card. Simply select the cards for the powers your character is using and you're ready to play!
Each deck of 100 cards includes all the powers from _Martial Power_ for one of the four classes features in the book - fighter, ranger, rogue, and warlord - plus a few blank cards for players to use for other powers.
The display box includes eight decks of power cards: two apaiece for the fighter, ranger, rogue, and the warlord.

$9.99
January 20, 2009

*The Clone Wars Campaign Guide*
A *Star Wars* Roleplaying Game Supplement by Rodney Thompson, JD Wilker, Patrick Stutzman, Gary Astleford, and Rob Brown
_The Clone Wars Campaign Guide_ launches heroes into the middle of sweeping battles to determine the fate of the galaxy. This book provides everything you need to set your adventures during the conflict between the Galactic Republic and the Separatist forces under the command of Count Dooku.
This book includes new information for heroes on both sides of the war, including new talents, feats, prestige classes, and equipment designed to tailor characters to the unique feel of the Clone Wars conflict. More than just information for players, _The Clone Wars Campaign Guide_ provides Gamemasters with descriptions and statistics for starships, vehicles, allies, opponants, and planets and features in-depth information on material drawn from Lucasfilm's new CG animated series, _The Clone Wars._

Hardcover, 224 pages, $39.95
January 20, 2009


----------



## Caliber (Jul 30, 2008)

Wait a minute. Does this mean Martial Power is coming with 100 powers for each of the four Martial classes?


----------



## Insight (Jul 30, 2008)

Deset Gled said:


> No monk in 2009 makes me a sad panda.




Dragon maybe?


----------



## SteveC (Jul 30, 2008)

As far as Martial Power: wow! If the power cards are to be believed, that's 100 powers per class, which is more than what we've seen for them in the PHB. Hopefully that will not be too much feature creep ... I certainly hope there has been some SERIOUS playtesting, or we may find the original PHB much less useful for Martial characters.

For the rest: I'm surprised at the lack of products. I've been looking at the release schedule for the rest of this year and now into the next, and there's not a lot of products that I'm very interested in. The martial and arcane books are a given, as is the equipment guide, but the rest ... color me underwhelmed. I have to seriously question this new release strategy...does WotC not want to sell as many products for 4E?

Still, I'll take quality over quantity, so hopefully these new releases will avoid the "Sword and Fist" splat effect...

--Steve


----------



## thalmin (Jul 30, 2008)

*Continuing the catalog*

This information is being added to the original post

*Dungeon Delve*
A *D&D* Adventure by David Noonan and Bill Slavicsek
_Dungeon Delve_ provides the DM withan array of small, easy-to-run dungeons each especially designed for a night of gaming.
This book is designed for groups looking for an exciting night of monster-slay9ngwithout the prep time. It contains dozens of self-contained easy-to-run mini-dungeons, or "delves," each one crafted for a few hours of game-play.
The book includes delves for 1st- to 3oth-level characters, and features dozens of iconic monsters for the heroes to battle. Dungeon Masters can run these delves as one-shot adventures or weave them into their campaign.

*Key Selling Points*

This book has encounters for all levels of characters, from 1st to 30th. 
DMs can drop each of the mini-dungeons into their games at a moment's notice. 
Based on the extremely popular "Delve" events held at gaming conventions. 
Every delve is designed to use existing *D&D* Dungeon Tiles and *D&D* Miniatures.
Hardcover, 192 pages, $29.95
February 17, 2009

*DU3 Caves of Carnage Dungeon Tiles*
A *D&D* Accessory
This product gives Dungeon Masters an easy and inexpensive way to include great-looking terrain for their games. This set provides ready-to-use, configurable tiles with which to build exciting underground encounter scenes.
This accessory fo the *Dungeons & Dragons* Roleplaying Game contains six double-sided sheets of illustrated, die-cut terrain tiles printed on heavy cardstock. These tiles feature twisting caverns that include underground rivers, chasms, treacherous rope bridges, and the aftermath of bloody battles.
$9.95
February 17, 2009

*P3 Assault on Nightwyrm Fortress*
A *D&D*Adventure by Bruce R. Cordell and Shawn Merwin
_Assault on Nightwyrm Fortress_ is a *D&D* adventure designed to take characters from 17th to 21st level. In this adventure, the PCs discover that not all souls rest easy, particularly those spirited away to Nightwyrm Fortress. To learn the truth, players must pierce death's veil itself and enter Shadowfell, where sinister echoes of life wing through eternal gloom.
This adventure can be run as a stand-alone dventure or as Part Three of a three-part series of adventures (starting with _P1 King of the Trollhaunt Warrens,_ and continuing with _P2 Demon Queen's Enclave_ that spans the paragon tier of gameplay.
96 pages, $24.95
March 17, 2009

*Player's Handbook 2*
A *D&D* Supplement by Rob Heinsoo and Mike Mearls
*Player's Handbook 2* expands the range of options available to *D&D* players with new classes, races, powers, and other material.
This book builds on the array of classes and races presented in the first *Player's Handbook*, adding both old favorites and new, never-before-seen options to the game.
The book adds a new poer source for 4th Edition *D&D*: classes using the new primal power source include the barbarian and the druid.

*Key Selling Points*
This book is aimed directly at players, helping them build more exciting and interesting characters.
The new classes in this book include some long-time favorites of *D&D* players, such as the barbarian, druid, and sorcerer.
The book features several new races, including the gnome, the half-orc, and the goliath.
Hardcover, 224 pages, $34.95
March 17, 2009

*Legacy Era Campaign Guide* A *Star Wars* Roleplaying Game Supplement by Rodney Thompson, Sterling Hershey, and Gary Astleford
The Empire rules the galaxy once more, this time under the control of the vile Darth Krayt, and resistance is crushed under the heels of Sith overlords. The Jedi are scattered and devastated, with only a handful remaining to resist the tyranny of the Sith. The Galactic Alliance fleet is but a shadow of its former self, struggling to stay hidden while engaging in hit-and-run attacks against the Empire.
This is theLegacy Era, set 130 years after the Battle of Yavin. This campaign guide gives players and Gamemasters the freedom to shape the *Star Wars* galaxy during an exciting period when no one is safe from evil. Players can join the struggling Alliance fleet, or fight for Roan Fel's Empire-in-exile. This book contains everything players need to create heroes that fit perfectly into the Legacy Era, while Gamemasters will find the book filled with allies, antagonists, starships, and plot hooks to create exciting adventures against the backdrop of a galaxy ruled by the Sith.
Hardcover, 224 pages, $39.95
March 17, 2009

*E1 Death's Reach*
A *D&D* Adventure by Bruce R. Cordell and Chris Sims
_Death's Reach_ is a *D&D* adventure designed to take characters from 21st to 24th level. In this adventure, players learn the very foundation of reality is threatened by those seeking to usurp the powers of the gods of death. To prevent this cosmic coup, players must trace disruptions into the Shadowfell's timeless core, where all things find their end.
This adventure can be run as a stand-alone adventure or as Part One of a three-part series of adventures (beginning with this one) that spans the epic tier of gameplay.
96 pages, $24.95
April 21, 2009

*Arcane Power*
A *D&D* Supplement by Logan Bonner, Eytan Bernstein, and Peter Lee
_Arcane Power_ isthe latest in a line of player-friendly supplements offering hundreds of new options for *D&D* Characters. This tome focuses on the arcane heroes: characters who wield strange and mysterious spells and rely on thier mastery of magic for survival.
This book provides new archetypal builds for the wizard, warlock, sorcerer, bard, and swordmage classes, including new character powers, feats, paragon paths, and epic destinies.
Hardcover, 160 pages, $29.95
April 21, 2009

*Player's Handbook 2 Power Cards*
A *D&D* Accessory
Players using *Player's Handbook 2* Power Cards don't need to crack open a rulebook every time they cast a spell - all the crucial information is right in front of their eyes.
Each and every class power appearing in *Player's Handbook 2* has its own card. Simply select the cards for your character's powers and you're ready to play!
Each deck of 100 cards includes all the powers from *Player's Handbook 2* for one of the eight classes featured in the book, plus a few blank cards for players to use for other powers.
$9.95
April 21, 2009

Miniatures

Imperial Entanglements
A *Star Wars* Miniatures Game Booster Pack
_Imperial Entanglements_ focuses on the Rebellion Era and features characters from *Star Wars* Episode V: _The Empire Strikes Back_ and *Star Wars* Episode VI:_Return of the Jedi._ This set also includes important figures from the *Star Wars* Expanded Universe.
The new set size of 40 miniatures will make collecting favorite chacters easier. 7 miniatures plus cards per pack.
$14.99
February 24, 2009

*Feywild*
A *Dungeons & Dragons* Miniatures Game Expansion
Primal fury erupts in a battle between the guardians of nature and those who would corrupt it!
Eight figures plus cards per pack.
$14.99
March 17, 2009

*D&D Miniatures Game Starter Set*
A *Dungeons & Dragons* Miniatures Game Product
The *D&D* Miniatures Game rules have been updated to facilitate faster, exciting gameplay. In addition, this new starter features blister packaging that showcases all five miniatures in the set.

Each starter contains:

5 exclusive, non-random, pre-painted miniatures: Troll-King, Dragonborn Rogue, Gnoll Huntmaster, Halfling Cleric, and Woodland Defender.
5 stat cards
2 double-sided, illustrated battle grids
1 damage counter sheet
1 twenty-sided die (d20)
Rulebook
$14.99
March 17, 2009


----------



## lkj (Jul 30, 2008)

So the Arcane power book then pretty much confirms that the Bard is in the Players Handbok II (or some other supplement that occurs before it).

Maybe you super savvy folks already had confirmation from somewhere else, but that's new for me. It's also new that the sorcerer is a definite for the book (though I'd heard it rumored).

Cool. Just sad there's no monk or psionics for awhile.

AD


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 30, 2008)

Thalmin, thanks for the news! 

Interesting information. 

I read the part on the PHB 2 and thought: "Oh, no Bard..." 
Then I read the part on Arcane Power and thought "Ah, Bard!" 

The story for the adventures so far seems interesting. E1 particulary appears to me as if the story fits the "Epic" Title: _To prevent this cosmic coup, players must trace disruptions into the Shadowfell's timeless core, where all things find their end._

Hey, and that's just the start!


----------



## w_earle_wheeler (Jul 30, 2008)

Dungeon Delve sounds like a great product. I was actually putting together something like that myself. I'm glad to see that WotC is putting one out!

PHB 2 and the Dungeon Tiles will also be must-buys for me. As for the adventures, it depends on the print quality and battle map contents/quality.


----------



## thalmin (Jul 30, 2008)

I was disappointed that no mention was made about quantity of maps in the adventures this time around.


----------



## Aristotle (Jul 30, 2008)

The cards will have to be pretty good for that product to spark any interest in me. I make mine on the cheap. Mine are pretty basic, but they don't use a ton of ink and they print directly to blank index cards that I get for a couple of cents each. Others have managed some pretty professional looking cards, though more expensive than mine to reproduce. (see my blog entry for mine)

Pretty much all of the rest of the D&D stuff is on my list, other than the adventures.


----------



## orangefruitbat (Jul 30, 2008)

I seem to recall Spell Decks being sold for 2nd edition ADnD.

Does this make 2nd edition Magic as well?




Darkwolf71 said:


> To lessen confusion, It was I who claimed 'disgust', not tomBitonti.
> 
> Now technically, sure. I'll cede the point that, 10 bucks for 80 cards is not a horrible price. My disgust comes from the realization that the game was designed with this in mind. They have made D&D into a game that practically requires the use of minis and cards. Which convieniantly, oh look... they just happen to sell.
> 
> It's no longer D&D, it's fraking Magic: The Role Playing Game.


----------



## Mercule (Jul 30, 2008)

lkj said:


> So the Arcane power book then pretty much confirms that the Bard is in the Players Handbok II (or some other supplement that occurs before it).



Not necessarily.  It could be "official" DDI-only.  Which probably ticks some folks off like the Arcane book supporting an FR-only (book-wise).

Don't get me wrong.  I like the look of Swordmage.  I'm just a bit ticked that I'd have to drop $30 on a setting book (for a setting I seriously dislike) to make use of roughly 1/5 of the arcane book.  Semi-requiring PHB2 is fair game, IMO.  Doing the same with a setting book is a really crappy move -- one I'll forgive if the full version of the Swordmage is published on the DDI, though.


----------



## Agamon (Jul 30, 2008)

Does no one else think that power cards is a bit much?  Who has room for that on the table?  I've got a big-ass table, and no available real estate.  Powers printed out on paper to go aloong with the character sheet, put in sheet protectors and marked as used or not in water-soluable ink is the way to go...a lot less expensive, too.  And not very MtG like either, I guess .


----------



## mhacdebhandia (Jul 31, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> In my own group, only half of us are using home-made power cards. Some of us feel they speed things up, some of us don't. Me, I don't think it makes a huge difference, as long as you have your powers summarized on _something_--a sheet of paper works just fine.



I agree. In fact, the only reason I'm considering using power cards in the game I play in is that our DM doesn't have a large table for us to sit at, so we're a bit cramped with five PCs - it's purely to save space. With power cards, I can have the major details on the character sheet visible and not have to constantly shuffle paper to get to the information on my character's powers.

In the game *I* run, though, we're all spread out over my living room and as the DM I have the whole kitchen table to use as a "workspace", so it's not a problem. Everyone else has plenty of room and table surfaces, though one of my players uses her laptop rather than a printed sheet.


----------



## Shemeska (Jul 31, 2008)

Yikes. Virtually everything on that release schedule is crunch or prepackaged modules or books of prepackaged modules. 

It's like late 3.x's run of the "Complete X, Y, Z and the kitchen sink" redone with a different ruleset. They've read my mind, seen what things and playstyles I don't care for, and published it all. Yikes indeed from my perspective.


----------



## lkj (Jul 31, 2008)

Mercule said:


> Not necessarily.  It could be "official" DDI-only.  Which probably ticks some folks off like the Arcane book supporting an FR-only (book-wise).




I suppose it might be. Or it might be released in the printed dragon compilation they mentioned. But given that they seem to be keeping the limited DDI material free for now and that they appear to be well behind schedule, if it's a DDI exclusive, maybe the Bard will be free!

Still guessing it's in PHII, but I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong.

AD


----------



## lkj (Jul 31, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> Yikes. Virtually everything on that release schedule is crunch or prepackaged modules or books of prepackaged modules.
> 
> It's like late 3.x's run of the "Complete X, Y, Z and the kitchen sink" redone with a different ruleset. They've read my mind, seen what things and playstyles I don't care for, and published it all. Yikes indeed from my perspective.




You know, it's funny. I completely understand your aversion to the heavy loading of crunch and modules. I'll likely be skipping on most if not all of the modules myself (as well as the cards). However, I'm kind of glad that they are frontloading a lot of 'complete' type books-- meaning books filled with powers for existing classes. One of the concerns some of the folks at my table had when trying out 4th was the lack of options for character builds available in the PH. Putting out books with 100 extra powers for each class-- while not 'sexy'-- could go a long way to solving that concern.

Now, if they end up releasing a million books per power source, then I'll not be so happy.  

Out of curiousity-- is it more fluff type stuff that you are interested in? Fiendish Codex type stuff? I like that as well.

AD


----------



## ProfessorCirno (Jul 31, 2008)

I withhold judgement on the cards until after we see them.

The fact that we're _already_ being hit with the "Complete _X_" books does not bode well.  At all.


----------



## Shemeska (Jul 31, 2008)

lkj said:


> Out of curiousity-- is it more fluff type stuff that you are interested in? Fiendish Codex type stuff? I like that as well.




Flavor text heavy books that are inspirational and can be pillaged for campaign elements. Monster books with more flavor text and ecology (and a knowledge check chart with one line per range of numbers is not a good ecology section, it's a cheap way out of writing one). Setting books and supplements with lots of world elements, history, etc.

Anything but more classes, feats, powers, PrCs, etc etc


----------



## lkj (Jul 31, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> Flavor text heavy books that are inspirational and can be pillaged for campaign elements. Monster books with more flavor text and ecology (and a knowledge check chart with one line per range of numbers is not a good ecology section, it's a cheap way out of writing one). Setting books and supplements with lots of world elements, history, etc.
> 
> Anything but more classes, feats, powers, PrCs, etc etc




Fair enough. I'm quite fond of that material as well. I just don't have the same aversion to the 'crunch' books.

AD


----------



## Baumi (Jul 31, 2008)

About Arcane Power: It seems there will be more Arcane Classes than Martial ones (no problem with that), I'm just surprised that Sorcerer is Arcane and not Primal.

Also what is with the Artificer, isn't he an arcane Class too?


----------



## CharlesRyan (Jul 31, 2008)

Schmoe said:


> BTW, does anyone remember the spell cards from 3rd edition? Do you really think 3rd edition was designed to force you to use spell cards? How is this different?




It's different because people have noticed that these cards are actually useful. Which means people feel more compelled to get them. And somehow that makes them more offensive . . . .


----------



## Draksila (Jul 31, 2008)

Re: the powers added by the 'Power' line of books, I honestly don't see the new abilities being a huge imposition.  After all, the classes as they are in the PH, paragon paths and all, have around 90 powers apiece.  They're basically doubling the options.  In fact, depending on the basic powers to paragon paths ratio, it's quite possible that the better chunk of the new power cards will only apply to a percentage of the purchasing players; we'll just have to see how that turns out.


----------



## Ginnel (Jul 31, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:


> I withhold judgement on the cards until after we see them.
> 
> The fact that we're _already_ being hit with the "Complete _X_" books does not bode well. At all.



I'm thinking the opposite, but then again you are a critic/cynic of 4th edition and I am a fan/optimist of it.

the PHB is fuller than ever with powers this time as all class get these neat things to do, now in the PHB there are 4/3 options at each level including paragon paths, while this is playable, I as well as many others would like even more options, which is what these complete power books will hopefully provide I imagine an extra 3-4 powers per level + 4-5 paragon paths and 4-8 epic destinies.

It seems also they are only releasing them when the Power Source has reached its full complement of classes, 4 from what I can see. This would leave me to believe the Divine Power coming out in autumm(fall)/Winter next year and the Primal Power coming out in spring next year, with the PHB 3 which will contain the Shadow and Psionic and hmm another source, with 4 of one source and 2 each of the other two leading to a Power book of one of those sources in autumn that year. 

So I see the release list a bit like this (in terms of PHB's and Power books):

2008 Summer: PHB
2008 Autumn/winter: Martial Power
2009 Spring: PHB 2 
2009 Summer:Arcane Power
2009 Autumn/winter: Divine Power
2010 Spring: PHB 3 [for Psionic, Shadow and Ki? heroes]
2010 Summer: Primal Power
2011 Autumn/winter: [Something Power] the source which has 4 classes from PHB 3
2012 Spring: PHB4
2013 Summer: [Something Power] one of the 2 sources which has 2 classes from PHB 3 and 4
2014 Autumn: [Something Power] the remaining of the 2 sources which has 2 classes from PHB 3 and 4


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 31, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> Flavor text heavy books that are inspirational and can be pillaged for campaign elements. Monster books with more flavor text and ecology (and a knowledge check chart with one line per range of numbers is not a good ecology section, it's a cheap way out of writing one). Setting books and supplements with lots of world elements, history, etc.
> 
> Anything but more classes, feats, powers, PrCs, etc etc




I like the knowledge check parts mostly because they are directly usable in game. If I want to know what the PCs should know and what not I just consult the chart and let them roll. At the same time, they don't "over define" a monster for me. 
For now, I am planning to use the H1 to E3 series of adventure books, but eventually I _will_ homebrew, and more monster fluff is no longer inspirational to me, but limiting. I feel like I am throwing away way too much information.


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## Jhaelen (Jul 31, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> Anything but more classes, feats, powers, PrCs, etc etc



Well, I'd like to eventually see supplements with more fluff, too.

However, at this point, they're really better off to first publish more crunch. Many if not most of those still on the fence about switching to 4E are holding off because 4E doesn't yet have support for their favorite race/class/character concept.

Myself, I'll be ready to make the switch after the release of the psionic classes and a good setting (either Eberron, or a non-WotC setting like Age of Legend (Earthdawn)).


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## ProfessorCirno (Jul 31, 2008)

Jhaelen said:


> Well, I'd like to eventually see supplements with more fluff, too.
> 
> However, at this point, they're really better off to first publish more crunch. Many if not most of those still on the fence about switching to 4E are holding off because 4E doesn't yet have support for their favorite race/class/character concept.
> 
> Myself, I'll be ready to make the switch after the release of the psionic classes and a good setting (either Eberron, or a non-WotC setting like Age of Legend (Earthdawn)).




I think another setting is what 4e really needs right now.  The complaints about 4e range in two parts - the lack of peoples' favorite concepts, and that they dislike the imposed 4e setting.  Bringing in Eberron to kind of say "Guys, look, I've still got the old stuff, just how you like it" would, in my opinion, do a lot to help bring more players in.

Unfortunately, they really shot themselves in the foot with Forgotten Realms.


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## daddystabz (Jul 31, 2008)

How can I go about getting a catalog myself? I have no idea how you get WotC catalogs.

Thanks in advance!


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## thalmin (Jul 31, 2008)

The catalogs are sent out to retailers.


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## Ander00 (Jul 31, 2008)

> The only official power cards for D&D



Of course, the DDI character genererator may never be released, but what happened to the cards you were supposed to be able to print out through it?


cheers


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## Steely Dan (Jul 31, 2008)

lkj said:


> Maybe you super savvy folks already had confirmation from somewhere else, but that's new for me. It's also new that the sorcerer is a definite for the book (though I'd heard it rumored).




Yeah, it's all but confirmed that the Bard is an Arcane Leader and the Sorcerer an Arcane Controller (wild magic action).


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## Steely Dan (Jul 31, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:


> -Bringing in Eberron to kind of say "Guys, look, I've still got the old stuff, just how you like it" would, in my opinion, do a lot to help bring more players in.
> 
> 
> -Unfortunately, they really shot themselves in the foot with Forgotten Realms.





-_Eberron_ will be released next year, I believe.


-Why do you feel this way? I think _FR _needed a face-lift.


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## Glyfair (Jul 31, 2008)

Baumi said:


> Also what is with the Artificer, isn't he an arcane Class too?



An arcane class that doesn't officially appear until after Arcana Power.  What we have is only the playtest version of half of the class.


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## doctorhook (Jul 31, 2008)

Glyfair said:


> An arcane class that doesn't officially appear until after Arcana Power.  What we have is only the playtest version of half of the class.



Yes, but we received said "half-a-class" some nine or ten months before Arcane Power gets released. It would be silly if its final version wasn't complete long before then.

I *really, really* want Arcane Power to support the Artificer, and I don't give a damn if it comes out before the class itself.


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## evilref (Jul 31, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:


> The fact that we're _already_ being hit with the "Complete _X_" books does not bode well.  At all.




Complete X books were among the highest selling supplements of 2nd, 3rd, 3.5 and OGL products.

Not to do them is financially stupid and would be counter to what the majority of customers want (as evidenced by how well they sell).


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## Kobold Avenger (Jul 31, 2008)

"Complete" books are fine, but they definitely need more books with fluff.  Interesting concepts and ideas to use, and currently that's lacking.


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## Imaro (Jul 31, 2008)

You know the one thing I'm kind of lost on is the Basic Set... why are they waiting until November to release this.  I mean if the point of 4e was to attract a new market, you'd think this would have been a priority to at least be released before or with the actual core rulebooks.  In fact I would argue they should have made one big boxed set that included the basic rules/the KotS adventure/counters (or even better, minis) and maps as a first release... and it would have sold like hot cakes.  I think this would have even made the reprint maps in KotS more understandable.

Instead KotS released to pretty "meh" reviews, and pretty poor reviews as quality goes, and now that the basic set won't even have minis in it like the 3.5 set (which actually got me too buy it for that and the tiles), I wonder how this item is really going to do as far as sales.  IMHO, this is one of those things that could really help WotC generate more revenue, by bringing in more gamers, yet they continuously treat this product (throughout all the editions under their watch) as a second rate release.

SIDE NOTE: My fiancee's sister and her boyfriend came by our apartment and saw some of my gaming stuff on a table.  Both her and her boyfriend asked me about it... After a conversation both asked me if I would run a game that included them and they're son.  Now I would have loved to have been able to point them to a good introductory product for their son who they would love to see "Do something besides playing video games" but instead I'm going to start running a game for them (not sure if it will be Castles & Crusades or D&D). .  So by the time November comes out the usability of this product will be nill for them.  Wasted opportunity WotC


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## Caliber (Jul 31, 2008)

Baumi said:


> About Arcane Power: It seems there will be more Arcane Classes than Martial ones (no problem with that), I'm just surprised that Sorcerer is Arcane and not Primal.
> 
> Also what is with the Artificer, isn't he an arcane Class too?




Indeed, good question. Will the Eberron books be out by the time Arcane Power is released? If not, then I don't think we'd have the full version of the class yet. 

Maybe at some point we'll get extra powers for the Artificer in a supplment on the DDI.


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## Logan_Bonner (Jul 31, 2008)

A few comments on Arcane Power:

The artificer won't be supported in that book, because the artificer won't be fully developed until the _Eberron Player's Guide_ goes through dev. It just didn't make sense to support an unfinished class in a book that already had more classes covered than _Martial Power_ needed to. We were already designing powers for _PH2_ classes that weren't finished!

Shemeska and lkj: There are several books coming up that provide what you're looking for (like _Draconomicon_ and _Open Grave_). We're supporting that content on D&D Insider, too.

Mercule: Do you hate the 4th Edition Realms specifically, or the previous versions. If it's the previous versions, you might like some of the new trappings and the new approach to it. Of course, you might not. But we have tried to make it more accessible and to add new things both to get people who disliked the Realms interested in it and to give old-timers something to make the Realms seem fresh again.


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## Pazu (Jul 31, 2008)

Just a moment here.

The news page lists the swordmage as one of the PHB2 classes, but I don't see that mentioned in the catalog description.  Do we know for a fact that the swordmage is going to be in the PHB2, or will it only be found in the FR Player's Guide?


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## Darkwolf71 (Jul 31, 2008)

I'm glad to see Half-Orcs will be back. 
I am curious as to how they reconciled their 'troubling' back story. 



Also glad that there won't be any more 'Bard chanting'. Not that I care for the class itself, but it's cult following has been... vocal.


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## lkj (Jul 31, 2008)

WotC_Logan said:


> A few comments on Arcane Power:
> 
> 
> 
> Shemeska and lkj: There are several books coming up that provide what you're looking for (like _Draconomicon_ and _Open Grave_). We're supporting that content on D&D Insider, too.




Thanks for dropping in with the info. So when do we see the other power sources? (Just kidding, I know you can't tell me)

Cheers,
AD


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## lkj (Jul 31, 2008)

Pazu said:


> Just a moment here.
> 
> The news page lists the swordmage as one of the PHB2 classes, but I don't see that mentioned in the catalog description.  Do we know for a fact that the swordmage is going to be in the PHB2, or will it only be found in the FR Player's Guide?





I'm pretty sure that's an error on the news page. Swordmage is showing up in the Forgotten Realms book, and they appear to be supporting 'setting classes' in their power books.

AD


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## Mercule (Jul 31, 2008)

WotC_Logan said:


> Mercule: Do you hate the 4th Edition Realms specifically, or the previous versions. If it's the previous versions, you might like some of the new trappings and the new approach to it. Of course, you might not. But we have tried to make it more accessible and to add new things both to get people who disliked the Realms interested in it and to give old-timers something to make the Realms seem fresh again.



First, thank you very much for offering input to this discussion.  I think it's very cool that some WotC folks do that.  And I always appreciate it.

Full disclosure of bias, please don't stop with this paragraph:  The Realms have never resonated with me since it was released.  The short form is that the Realms have come to represent, to me, much of what caused me to bail on D&D in the early 1990s.  Rightly or wrongly, I doubt I'll ever be able to look at it completely objectively.  Ironically, the more of an uproar the 4e changes cause among old fans, the more likely I'll be to check it out.  I will, though, check out the 4e version with as much objectivity as I can -- seriously.

What I'm concerned about, though, is that this is an indicator of Player's Guides to come.  The Eberron PG will have the artificer.  The Ravenloft PG will have the necromancer.  The Dark Sun PG will have the psion.  It may not be those specific classes, but I'm sure you understand what I'm saying.  There are roughly 10 pages in the book that lots of people will want, even if they have no interest in the remainder.

I've bought my fair share of campaign settings over the last 25+ years.  But, I generally bought them either because I was curious or because they sounded cool in their own right.  The idea of buying a setting because I want a single, specific piece of crunch just doesn't sit right.

On a related note, I do like the three-then-done model for settings.  It makes me much more likely to buy a variety of settings.


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## Dinkeldog (Jul 31, 2008)

Let me make this clear.  The 4E = MtG discussion is over.


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## Mokona (Jul 31, 2008)

thalmin said:


> wizard, warlock, sorcerer, bard, and swordmage



By the time _Arcane Power_ comes out we'll have a full set of arcane classes + 1: arcane defender (swordmage), arcane leader (bard), arcane striker (warlock), and TWO arcane controllers (wizards + sorcerer).

AND we still won't have a Martial Controller.  The all martial game needs a controller long before arcane needs another controller besides the wizard.


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## Darkwolf71 (Jul 31, 2008)

Mokona said:


> By the time _Arcane Power_ comes out we'll have a full set of arcane classes + 1: arcane defender (swordmage), arcane leader (bard), arcane striker (warlock), and TWO arcane controllers (wizards + sorcerer).
> 
> AND we still won't have a Martial Controller.  The all martial game needs a controller long before arcane needs another controller besides the wizard.




You can not fill the role of a Controller with a Martial Character. They just don't work. Every example I have seen suggested either 1) was not truely a Martial character or 2) was not really a Controller.


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## Ginnel (Jul 31, 2008)

Pazu said:


> Just a moment here.
> 
> The news page lists the swordmage as one of the PHB2 classes, but I don't see that mentioned in the catalog description. Do we know for a fact that the swordmage is going to be in the PHB2, or will it only be found in the FR Player's Guide?



Yup seems to me they got this wrong on the news item, as there doesn't seem to be any confirmation of it appearing in the PHB 2.

On the question about other power sources I lept to a conclusion on page 4 of this discussion which I've copied to below
[sblock=post from page 4]
It seems also they are only releasing them when the Power Source has reached its full complement of classes, 4 from what I can see. This would leave me to believe the Divine Power coming out in autumm(fall)/Winter next year and the Primal Power coming out in spring next year, with the PHB 3 which will contain the Shadow and Psionic and hmm another source, with 4 of one source and 2 each of the other two leading to a Power book of one of those sources in autumn that year. 

So I see the release list a bit like this (in terms of PHB's and Power books):

2008 Summer: PHB
2008 Autumn/winter: Martial Power
2009 Spring: PHB 2 
2009 Summer:Arcane Power
2009 Autumn/winter: Divine Power
2010 Spring: PHB 3 [for Psionic, Shadow and Ki? heroes]
2010 Summer: Primal Power
2011 Autumn/winter: [Something Power] the source which has 4 classes from PHB 3
2012 Spring: PHB4
2013 Summer: [Something Power] one of the 2 sources which has 2 classes from PHB 3 and 4
2014 Autumn: [Something Power] the remaining of the 2 sources which has 2 classes from PHB 3 and 4
[/sblock]

regarding the martial controller class, hmm if they can do one coolio but I'd rather they not force it.


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## beepeearr (Jul 31, 2008)

Why can't you build a martial controller, I can think of a couple of routes.

Sniper = use ranged attacks, ranged interrupts and reactions, and fear to create zones.

Pole Arm Wielder = same as above only centered on the controller

Harrier = uses speed to create zones and area effect attacks, interrupts and reactions that allow him to move and attack when certain actions occur with a certain range.  Basically character makes a close blast attack, which really consists of him flitting about smacking multiple foes, most powers should have an effect that requires him to end turn next to last opponent attacked

Saboteur = sets improvised traps to create zones, uses things like greek fire, thunderstones and the like but with bigger effects, create some martial rituals that allows the saboteur to create more complex traps (also think crafting in general should find a home as martial rituals) 

To build an actual class you could even combine these concepts.  Make two roles range and quick.  The ranged role generally have powers that focus on creating fear in the opponent through sniping, while other powers revolve around trick shots and "trick arrows"

The quick role has powers that use speed of foot to create zones and effects to pull off the harrier route and general quickness to grant a pseudo reach by darting forth and springing back (basically spring attack) to do what the the polearm route would do.  

Give the traps as rituals.  

Just because or only current example of a controller relies on big flashy magical effects, does it mean they all will.  Instead of a fireball the character just fires a ton of arrows, or one really good shot which frightens any allies nearby.  Instead of a lighting bolt, the controller lines up a shot that either penetrates through multiple opponents or grazes several before finally hitting his true target.  Remember hit points are just as much about morale as actual damage a martial controller should be all about creating fear in his opponents.   
In this case it's not the arrow that does the damage it's the fact that the guy you were just talking to now has an arrow through his throat.


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## Grimstaff (Jul 31, 2008)

Imaro said:


> You know the one thing I'm kind of lost on is the Basic Set... why are they waiting until November to release this.




Seriously? I would have thought that'd be obvious: Best Christmas Prestent Ever!


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## Grimstaff (Jul 31, 2008)

Martial Controller? How about Monk?

Jackie Chan would approve (as he decimates a horde of ninjas with a refridgerator door)...


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## drothgery (Jul 31, 2008)

Mokona said:


> By the time _Arcane Power_ comes out we'll have a full set of arcane classes + 1: arcane defender (swordmage), arcane leader (bard), arcane striker (warlock), and TWO arcane controllers (wizards + sorcerer).
> 
> AND we still won't have a Martial Controller.  The all martial game needs a controller long before arcane needs another controller besides the wizard.




A divine controller is somewhat more plausible, and though there's a decent chance there is one in PHB2, I have no idea what it is; no existing 3.5 class really qualifies (though some cleric and druid builds did).

Really, if you go through the power sources listed in the PH1

martial - most likely will never get a controller
divine - could easily have no striker or no controller
arcane - only power source known to have a 'full set'
primal - probably gets a 'full set'
elemental - probably doesn't have a leader
psionic - probably doesn't have a leader (the Complete Psi Ardent was very forced)
_ki_ - again, probably doesn't have a leader, and might not have a controller (even Street Fighter II/Tome of Battle desert wind style ki powers seem more single-target than area of effect)
shadow - might have a complete set, but could easily be missing a defender (hexblade works, but is a bit redundant)

And monk is almost certainly a ki striker, which was obvious the day ki showed up on the official list of upcoming power sources.


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## Kobold Avenger (Aug 1, 2008)

drothgery said:


> A divine controller is somewhat more plausible, and though there's a decent chance there is one in PHB2, I have no idea what it is; no existing 3.5 class really qualifies (though some cleric and druid builds did).
> 
> Really, if you go through the power sources listed in the PH1
> 
> martial - most likely will never get a controller



Probably right, I can't think of one...



> divine - could easily have no striker or no controller



Most likely there will be, since there's 8 classes in the PHB and 2 of them are arcane, the other 6 can't all be primal.  And there's certainly room for concepts such as Inquisitor (striker) and Theurge (controller).  Besides who's going to get powers like Destruction or Slay Living?



> arcane - only power source known to have a 'full set'
> primal - probably gets a 'full set'
> elemental - probably doesn't have a leader



Elemental hasn't really been defined, or even distinguished from primal.  But I could easily see there being some class that calls out/enhances the elemental nature of their allies.



> psionic - probably doesn't have a leader (the Complete Psi Ardent was very forced)



There's quite a lot of room and concept for a psionic leader.  The ardent wasn't good since they took away half of it's abilities and made it the Divine Mind.  Also you could so easily throw some telepathic powers, and ever fan-made 'hivemind' concept on to the ardent and you'll have your psionic leader.



> _ki_ - again, probably doesn't have a leader, and might not have a controller (even Street Fighter II/Tome of Battle desert wind style ki powers seem more single-target than area of effect)



I'm really at a loss at what the other classes would be, other than monk.  They could reinstate the ToB classes, and controller would be the most difficult to come up with.  

Making the Wu Jen part of that power source would be really forced and too much about the wrong type of cultural pidgeon-holing, as Wu Jen (Chinese for 'Witch Person') is clearly a class that should be elemental or primal.

Unless there's the plan on bringing back some of the Incarnum classes.  In which case the Incarnate could be a ki controller.



> shadow - might have a complete set, but could easily be missing a defender (hexblade works, but is a bit redundant)



I have a harder time envisioning a Shadow-leader.  

Sure Hexblade might be redundant in that it could overlap with the Warlock (since it would be all about cursing) and Swordmage, but I think there's plenty of ways to make a class around using curses to be a defender.  

As for the other shadow classes, I suspect it would be Shadowcaster (controller) as a necromancer/illusionist and Ninja (striker).


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## thalmin (Aug 1, 2008)

Did WotC ever say there would be at least one of role for each power source? I do remember them stating that they were avoiding unnecessary symmetry.


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## Glyfair (Aug 1, 2008)

thalmin said:


> Did WotC ever say there would be at least one of role for each power source? I do remember them stating that they were avoiding unnecessary symmetry.



There have been comments from designers that some combinations were pretty close to impossible (no, I can't point to one).  The general feeling is that the comments were directed at the martial controller role.


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## doctorhook (Aug 1, 2008)

Just so we're clear...

*The "PH2 has swordmage" scoop on the News page is an error, right?*

Nowhere in this thread, the apparent source for said scoop, seems to suggest otherwise. Or did I misread something?


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## doctorhook (Aug 1, 2008)

Glyfair said:


> There have been comments from designers that some combinations were pretty close to impossible (no, I can't point to one).  The general feeling is that the comments were directed at the martial controller role.





			
				Darkwolf71 said:
			
		

> You can not fill the role of a Controller with a Martial Character. They just don't work. Every example I have seen suggested either 1) was not truely a Martial character or 2) was not really a Controller.



These.


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## Steely Dan (Aug 1, 2008)

drothgery said:


> divine - could easily have no striker or no controller





I'm thinking/hoping the "I" class in the PHB II will be an Invoker (divine striker) and the "T" class a Theurge (divine controller).

I agree this Martial Controller some people are clamouring for will never come to fruition, not only have the designers stated they are_ not_ obsessing about filling out the power source/role grid, but every idea I have seen for one has been very contrived.

This Engineer/Alchemist/Harrier/Dragoon etc business is doing me old noggin in.


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## Steely Dan (Aug 1, 2008)

Grimstaff said:


> Martial Controller? How about Monk?





The Monk is all but confirmed as a Ki Striker.


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## thalmin (Aug 1, 2008)

doctorhook said:


> Just so we're clear...
> 
> *The "PH2 has swordmage" scoop on the News page is an error, right?*
> 
> Nowhere in this thread, the apparent source for said scoop, seems to suggest otherwise. Or did I misread something?



The scoop is an error. I inadvertently combined 2 lists. Sorry.


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## drothgery (Aug 1, 2008)

(the ki power source)



Kobold Avenger said:


> I'm really at a loss at what the other classes would be, other than monk.  They could reinstate the ToB classes, and controller would be the most difficult to come up with.




Probably the non-caster-analog 'oriental' classes. So two strikers (monk and ninja), and samurai as a defender.

(shadow)


Kobold Avenger said:


> I have a harder time envisioning a Shadow-leader.
> 
> Sure Hexblade might be redundant in that it could overlap with the Warlock (since it would be all about cursing) and Swordmage, but I think there's plenty of ways to make a class around using curses to be a defender.
> 
> As for the other shadow classes, I suspect it would be Shadowcaster (controller) as a necromancer/illusionist and Ninja (striker).




I was thinking the Shadow set would be
striker - Assassin and/or Shadowdancer
defender - hexblade
leader - necromancer
controller - illusionist

and that the hexblade is a bit redundant because it will play a lot like a swordmage or paladin.


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## Cadfan (Aug 1, 2008)

The hexblade is problematic in 4e because the thing that made it good in 3e is out- stacking magical offensive and defensive modifiers like crazy until you have a halfway decent character.  But I did love it in spite of (because of?) its underpowered nature, and I'd like to see it redone in 4e.


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## doctorhook (Aug 1, 2008)

drothgery said:


> I was thinking the Shadow set would be
> striker - Assassin and/or Shadowdancer
> defender - hexblade
> leader - necromancer
> ...



Perhaps Shadow won't have a defender.

I could handle that; we're all looking forward to Shadow for illusion and necromancy anyway.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Aug 2, 2008)

Imaro said:


> You know the one thing I'm kind of lost on is the Basic Set... why are they waiting until November to release this.  I mean if the point of 4e was to attract a new market, you'd think this would have been a priority to at least be released before or with the actual core rulebooks.



I asked James Wyatt this exact thing last November. I asked why there wouldn't be a Basic Set at the same time, or even before, the primary set of books. James replied that it was WotC's goal to win over the hard core existing gamers first, then months later an intro set would be considered.


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## Darkwolf71 (Aug 5, 2008)

drothgery said:


> (the ki power source)
> 
> Probably the non-caster-analog 'oriental' classes. So two strikers (monk and ninja), and samurai as a defender.




I could see the break down going:
Ninja: Striker
Monk: Defender
Samurai: Leader


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## doctorhook (Aug 8, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:


> I could see the break down going:
> Ninja: Striker
> Monk: Defender
> Samurai: Leader



Could be, could be.

OTOH, it might be Defender (Samurai), Striker (Ninja), and Striker (Monk). Or Leader (Samurai), Striker (Ninja), Controller (Monk). Or it could be still something else.

Each of these classes has numerous separate "mythologies" built around them, each one rooted in a different fictional source, and all of them with only the loosest connection to these classes' bases in reality. Altogether, it makes the role breakdown of the Ki power source possibly very difficult to predict.


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## daddystabz (Sep 17, 2008)

Is there a way someone like me could get a catalog and if so, how do I go about doing this?

Thanks in advance!


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## thalmin (Sep 17, 2008)

daddystabz said:


> Is there a way someone like me could get a catalog and if so, how do I go about doing this?
> 
> Thanks in advance!



Only way I know of is ask your FLGS if they have any extras.


----------

