# Ravnica Table of Contents & More



## Jester David (Oct 20, 2018)

Straight from Amazon are not only *Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica's* tablet of contents, but also a double page spread featuring the introduction of character creation!

View attachment 102521​

*Races: *Centaur, minotaur, simic hybrid, and vadalken races.
*Subclasses: *Clerics of order, druids of spores.

60-pages on the guild
24-pages on the city/world
10-pages of magic items
70-pages of NPCs and monsters. 

The focus is *really *on the Guilds as the defining feature, which makes some sense. But likely means that details of the setting unrelated to the Guild might be sparse, likely little more than has been seen in the various existing _Planeshift_ PDF products. It's almost a monster & Guild book more akin to _Volo's Guide to Monsters_ with a focus on Guild lore rather than monster lore.

The book also appears to be in the range of 256-pages, which is larger than the shipping weight previously implied. I had almost been expecting a svelte 160-page product.


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## Mercurius (Oct 20, 2018)

Looks great, although I wish there was more gazetteer-style setting info - seems rather sparse to run a full campaign.


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## Prakriti (Oct 20, 2018)

This just makes me wish we had gotten Planescape instead. 

Alas, what might have been...


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## pukunui (Oct 20, 2018)

Looks like the viashino got cut?


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## Josiah Stoll (Oct 20, 2018)

pukunui said:


> Looks like the viashino got cut?




Looks like it. 
I’m assuming that Weirds aren’t playable, either.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 20, 2018)

Prakriti said:


> This just makes me want Planescape all the more.
> 
> Alas, what could have been...




Yeah, this is just a book with factions in it. But they have no history in any DnD setting and the setting from which their come from isn't detailed. A Sigil supplement with its Factions would have made more sense.

I was excited when I first heard this book was coming out. It was a new(ish) setting to DnD and iconic MtG cards would have DnD stats! Win win. Now I'm finding out the book contains neither. 

Odd choices were made with this product. It reflects a lot of the supplements of 5e editions. Books that try to do a lot and end up doing not much.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 20, 2018)

I know what is bothering me so much with this campaign string book. It suffers from the gnome effect. What is missing isn't gnomes though. It's the campaign setting. And planewalking. And iconic MtG spells, artifacts and monsters. And colored magic. 

Guilds aren't what MtG is about. This is a MtG setting book in name only.


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## Josiah Stoll (Oct 20, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> I know what is bothering me so much with this campaign string book. It suffers from the gnome effect. What is missing isn't gnomes though.




The Gnome effect?


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## Alzrius (Oct 20, 2018)

Doggone it, I wanted it to list what monsters are in the book.


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## Jester David (Oct 20, 2018)

Mercurius said:


> Looks great, although I wish there was more gazetteer-style setting info - seems rather sparse to run a full campaign.





Kramodlog said:


> I know what is bothering me so much with this campaign string book. It suffers from the gnome effect. What is missing isn't gnomes though. It's the campaign setting. And planewalking. And iconic MtG spells, artifacts and monsters. And colored magic.



This concerns me as well. If the book doesn't contain enough information to run the campaign setting, then what's the point? Just make a setting neutral guild product that people can drop into their homebrew.

There is a pushback against expansive campaign settings of late. The idea that a big book of lore and knowledge and facts doesn't help your game. Which is somewhat true. There's a point where the lore becomes unwieldy and there's no room to make the world your own. But you do need a minimum amount of description to work with, or you're pretty much making up everything, which defeats the purpose of using a pre-published world. 



Prakriti said:


> This just makes me want Planescape all the more.





Kramodlog said:


> Yeah, this is just a book with factions in it. But they have no history in any DnD setting and the setting from which their come from isn't detailed. A Sigil supplement with its Factions would have made more sense.



The catch being, now they've done a city-focused campaign book that heavily focuses on and details factions. They're unlikely to do another. As that would be redundant. 
This pretty much kills any and all chance to a big _Guide to Sigil_ and Planescape.


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## Kite474 (Oct 20, 2018)

Looks pretty good. A little disappointed in the lack of subclasses and races, but I think the NPCs make up for it somewhat.

As for the rest its shaping up to ve what I wanted: more fluff outside the established stuff for Ravnica. Shaping up to be super useful for my MtG corssover game.


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## Paul Farquhar (Oct 20, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> I know what is bothering me so much with this campaign string book. It suffers from the gnome effect. What is missing isn't gnomes though. It's the campaign setting. And planewalking. And iconic MtG spells, artifacts and monsters. And colored magic.
> 
> Guilds aren't what MtG is about. This is a MtG setting book in name only.




I've pointed this out before, but it _isn't_ a MtG book. Not even in name.


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## Lord Mhoram (Oct 20, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> I know what is bothering me so much with this campaign string book. It suffers from the gnome effect. What is missing isn't gnomes though. It's the campaign setting. And planewalking. And iconic MtG spells, artifacts and monsters. And colored magic.
> 
> Guilds aren't what MtG is about. This is a MtG setting book in name only.




The way I look at it - this isn't the "Guide to MtG in D&D" it's about Ravnica - and that is all about the guilds. I didn't want to see any spells, or planeswalking in the book. I wanted the setting that informs those magic sets to be written for D&D. It looks like that was done. 

So I am happy for the way this looks.


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## Parmandur (Oct 20, 2018)

Jester David said:


> This concerns me as well. If the book doesn't contain enough information to run the campaign setting, then what's the point? Just make a setting neutral guild product that people can drop into their homebrew.
> 
> There is a pushback against expansive campaign settings of late. The idea that a big book of lore and knowledge and facts doesn't help your game. Which is somewhat true. There's a point where the lore becomes unwieldy and there's no room to make the world your own. But you do need a minimum amount of description to work with, or you're pretty much making up everything, which defeats the purpose of using a pre-published world.




There is a Gazeeter there for the area of the world that has been detailed in stories (The Tenth District). On the initial announcement interview for Dragon Talk, they discussed how the book is more going to supplement Chapter 3 of the DMG with oodles of tables for DIY adventure building in this Urban Fantasy genre (looks like most of Chapter 4 in this book, with the sample adventure following the Guild specific tables and guidelines for adventure generation), rather than detailed breakdowns of a planet-wide megacity. They also emphasized that they wanted these genre=specific tables to be useful to folks using other settings and homebrewing, so you can take the Cult of Radkos, file off the serial numbers,m and generate an adventure around a Cult of Orcus. This seems to match with what Mearls & Co. have been saying in recent years as to a new approach to settings as genre supplements to the base game. I can easily imagine a similar layout for Eberron and Dark Sun books.



Jester David said:


> The catch being, now they've done a city-focused campaign book that heavily focuses on and details factions. They're unlikely to do another. As that would be redundant.
> This pretty much kills any and all chance to a big _Guide to Sigil_ and Planescape.




But there is nothing Planar or Cosmic here, and Gonzo Cosmic oddity would be a very viable concept for a similar genre setting book as outlined here, which would be very different in content.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 20, 2018)

Lord Mhoram said:


> The way I look at it - this isn't the "Guide to MtG in D&D" it's about Ravnica.



Ravnica isn't even in this book.


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## Jester David (Oct 20, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> There is a Gazeeter there for the area of the world that has been detailed on stories (The Tenth District).



Yes. And it has a page count smaller than the description of Waterdeep at the end of _Dragon Heist_.



Parmandur said:


> On the initial announcement interview for Dragon Talk, they discussed how the book is more going to supplement Chapter 3 of the DMG with oodles of tables for DIY adventure building in this Urban Fantasy genre (looks like most of Chapter 5 in this book, with the sample adventure following the Guild specific tables). This seems to match with what Mearls & Co. have been saying in recent years as to a new approach to settings as genre supplements to the base game.



Supplementing the DMG is fine. But that's not the content you expect from a book dedicated to and focused on a campaign setting. That's generic information that could be in a DMG2 style book. 

There's no shortage of books that could have generic DIY urban fantasy support. But only this book can detail Ravnica. 
If you cannot run an extended Ravnica campaign without having to invent wide swaths of details or turn to the MtG Wiki, than this product has failed. 



Parmandur said:


> I can easily imagine a similar layou for Eberron and Dark Sun books.



Keep in mind that the _Wayfarer's Guide to Eberron_ has about as much world lore as this book will have, if not _more_. And if it had a similar number of monsters as Ravnica, it'd probably be larger. 
So look at WGtE and decide if you could run an entire campaign with just that product. 



Parmandur said:


> But there is nothing Planar or Cosmic here, and Gonzo Cosmic oddity would be a very viable concept for a similar genre setting book as outlined here.



A general guide to the planes is in the DMG. Perkins has already directed people to that in place of a revised _Manual of the Planes_. So they're unlikely to do a big dedicated planar book without something new to add. Sigil and the Planescape factions could have been that, but now that content overlaps too much Ravnica.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 20, 2018)

Josiah Stoll said:


> The Gnome effect?




A concept that comes from 4e's PHB excluding the gnome race and some classes. 

The effect is even bigger with this campaign book as Ravnica isn't in he Ravnica campaign guide. But also MtG elements aren't in the book either. And that is weird cause Ravnica is part of the MtG universe.


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## Lord Mhoram (Oct 20, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> Ravnica isn't even in this book.




I was speaking of the world, not character.  I don't have the book yet, but looking at the ToC - I see it all over - I'm sure the guild sections will be giving info on the world, Chapter 3 looks to be all about the world, and the adventures section looks to have lots of information on the world. Seems like it is.

I don't want a super detailed timeline, a huge gazetter - previous editions version of Forgetten Realms setting or Pathfinder's Guide to the Inner Sea books I've found pretty much useless in play - I want something that helps give me the tools to run games set in the setting - this seems to do that very well.

I guess what I am saying - I don't want a conversion book from another game - but a D&D book from the ground up that is a D&D take on the information (but not mechanics) of the setting.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 20, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I've pointed this out before, but it _isn't_ a MtG book. Not even in name.




That is like saying a Forgottem Realms book isn't a D&D book.


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## gyor (Oct 20, 2018)

pukunui said:


> Looks like the viashino got cut?




 The Viashino,  School of Invention,  and Brute. I blame blame School of Invention not being popular on misleading people to to it's true purpose,  they tried to sell it as a generalist wizard WTF? 

 Still disappointed Viashino,  Vampire,  and Reverent aren't in as playable races. Still at least got a few interesting races. 

 One thing I noticed is each guild has a guild spells list, I don't know if that is a list of preferred spells or some new spells. Also for some reason Chaos Bolt is has its own section. 

 I like that Keyrune's are in,  each can turn into a guild aligned artifact creature. Orzhov's Keyrune turns into a Thrull,  Rakdos turns into a devil,  Simic a Crab,  Selsynia a wolf,  Boros a Soldier,  Dimir a Horror,  Izzet an Elemental, Golgori Insect,  Gruul Beast,  and Azorous bird.


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## Parmandur (Oct 20, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Yes. And it has a page count smaller than the description of Waterdeep at the end of _Dragon Heist_.
> 
> 
> Supplementing the DMG is fine. But that's not the content you expect from a book dedicated to and focused on a campaign setting. That's generic information that could be in a DMG2 style book.
> ...




One important point on Ravnica, is that "small" Gazeeter (actually about the size of one of the old BECMI Gazeeter books, really) is all that has been detailed geographically for the setting, period. All of the stories take place in that section of the city, by and large.

The point of making it a GENRE setting book as much as anything, is to increase value for folks in general. Most people write their own adventures: providing them tools to do so, or convert official AP products, makes sense. They can't detail an entire planet, but they can provide tropes and tables for a genre that can generate content.

Just because they do ten Guilds here, doesn't mean they can't do nine Factions in a future Planescape book, should this model prove popular. Other than being factions, they don't seem to share much in common as regards narrative terms or story possiblities.

Of course the Wayfinder's Guide is sufficient to run a campaign...?


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## Kramodlog (Oct 20, 2018)

Lord Mhoram said:


> I don't want a super detailed timeline, a huge gazetter.



I do. It gives me tools to make campaigns and aventures. 

It is also fun to read. Since 4e WotC has forgotten that lore is also one of the reasons people bought D&D products.


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## Parmandur (Oct 20, 2018)

gyor said:


> The Viashino,  School of Invention,  and Brute. I blame blame School of Invention not being popular on misleading people to to it's true purpose,  they tried to sell it as a generalist wizard WTF?
> 
> Still disappointed Viashino,  Vampire,  and Reverent aren't in as playable races. Still at least got a few interesting races.
> 
> ...




The UA act as a sort of Populist veto, if enough people don't like an option, they cut it. Like Skill Feats.

Crawford has given a ~12 month timeframe for a UA test to make it into a product or it never will. The Revenant is dead and buried, I'm afraid.


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## gyor (Oct 20, 2018)

Lord Mhoram said:


> The way I look at it - this isn't the "Guide to MtG in D&D" it's about Ravnica - and that is all about the guilds. I didn't want to see any spells, or planeswalking in the book. I wanted the setting that informs those magic sets to be written for D&D. It looks like that was done.
> 
> So I am happy for the way this looks.




 Look under the guilds in the table of contents and it lists Guild Spells and there is a section for magic items.


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## gyor (Oct 20, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> I do. It gives me tools to make campaigns and aventures.
> 
> It is also fun to read. Since 4e WotC has forgotten that lore is also one of the reasons people bought D&D products.




 Exactly it's not just for function, reading it is supposed to be fun in its own right.


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## Jester David (Oct 20, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> One important point on Ravnica, is that "small" Gazeeter (actually about the size of one of the old BECMI Gazeeter books, really) is all that has been detailed geographically for the setting, period. All of the stories take place in that section of the city, by and large.
> 
> The point of making it a GENRE setting book as much as anything, is to increase value for folks in general. Most people write their own adventures: providing them tools to do so, or convert official AP products, makes sense. They can't detail an entire planet, but they can provide tropes and tables for a genre that can generate content.



They can't detail the entire planet, no. But that's no reason not to even try.

If people have to invent everything anyway... why even name it Ravnica? Just leave it setting neutral and let people use the book for Ravnica and Waterdeep and Palanthas and Sigil.



Parmandur said:


> Just because they do ten Guilds here, doesn't mean they can't do nine Factions in a future Planescape book, should this model prove popular. Other than being factions, they don't seem to share much in common as regards narrative terms or story possiblities.



I highly doubt that. They publish too few books each year to do anything with that much overlap. For the same reason I don't think we're going to ever see a Dragonlance storyline or product. It overlaps too much with _Tyranny of Dragons_. 

Really, I think the Ravnica book literally replaced a Sigil book that was loosely planned or outlined. They decided to go with something new rather than republish something that had already been done. 
After this fall, they've have "done" cities and "done" stories and expansion products that focus on factions. Boxes checked. 



Parmandur said:


> Of course the Wayfinder's Guide is sufficient to run a campaign...?



I disagree with that. 
It's a taste of the setting, but I don't think a new DM with just that and no other Eberron books will have enough to run a campaign in that setting without ending up inventing more content than they were supplied.


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## gyor (Oct 20, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Straight from Amazon are not only *Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica's* tablet of contents, but also a double page spread featuring the introduction of character creation!
> 
> View attachment 102521​
> 
> ...




 Comparing it to VGTM is the perfect comparesion yes. But with just a dash of SCAG and W: DH added to it (Welcome to Ravnica, Chapter 3, and the intro adventure),  but yeah otherwise it's the Guild version of VGTM and MTOFs. Actually it's like they threw in Volo's Encraditition (sorry about the misspelling) to Waterdeep into VGTMs. 

 But I didn't expect say a full FRCG style book,  it was never big enough to do such a task.


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## Parmandur (Oct 20, 2018)

Jester David said:


> They can't detail the entire planet, no. But that's no reason not to even try.




But why fail at an impossible task, when they can succeed at a useful task...?



Jester David said:


> If people have to invent everything anyway... why even name it Ravnica? Just leave it setting neutral and let people use the book for Ravnica and Waterdeep and Palanthas and Sigil.




Again, they do detail all of the story-related geography: six novels and various web short fiction are almost entirely Tenth Disctrict centric. The Millions of square miles of Megacity are not detailed, and billions of sentient beings not named in the fiction, why expect that here? The important elements are the Guilds and the Guildpact which binds the world.



Jester David said:


> I highly doubt that. They publish too few books each year to do anything with that much overlap. For the same reason I don't think we're going to ever see a Dragonlance storyline or product. It overlaps too much with _Tyranny of Dragons_.




In between Sky Kings Thunder and Tomb of Annihilation, they published a book that had Against the Giants and Tomb of Horrors to acclaim and financial success. I doubt they are that concerned with repeating a theme from 5+ years earlier (at the time of any potential DL book) as you suspect.

In terms of what they do plan for settings, we do have big clues. The DMsGuild used to have all of the D&D Settings listed, now they have a smaller list that is identical to the shortlist from the recent marketing survey: Ravenloft, Dark Sn, Eberron, Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Planescape, Dragonland, "Plane Shift" (M:tG material) and "Search Settings" (Which includes Mystarra, Spelljammer, Nentir Vale and Birthright material).

An argument can be made for all of the named settings they are mentioning on a frequent basis as being a unique genre style (Mearls intermittently tweets about how Greyhawk his favorite setting, has unique genre elements, like he is making a case to somebody).



Jester David said:


> Really, I think the Ravnica book literally replaced a Sigil book that was loosely planned or outlined. They decided to go with something new rather than republish something that had already been done.
> After this fall, they've have "done" cities and "done" stories and expansion products that focus on factions. Boxes checked.




I doubt it. They have probably been thinking about doing a M:tG crossover officially for a while, given the success of the free booklets.  Still plenty of room for Cosmic fantasy as a unique genre, with need for other Races, Subclasses, tables, monsters, etc.



Jester David said:


> I disagree with that.
> It's a taste of the setting, but I don't think a new DM with just that and no other Eberron books will have enough to run a campaign in that setting without ending up inventing more content than they were supplied.




I think Keith Baker has other ideas. I take it as a given that a DM will need to invent more content than supplied, for any setting.


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## gyor (Oct 20, 2018)

Jester David said:


> They can't detail the entire planet, no. But that's no reason not to even try.
> 
> If people have to invent everything anyway... why even name it Ravnica? Just leave it setting neutral and let people use the book for Ravnica and Waterdeep and Palanthas and Sigil.
> 
> ...




 That is true of every single setting in 5e, they've starved all of them. Compare what FR got in 1e,  2e,  3e,  4e,  to the crumbs it gets in 5e,  and it's the default setting! The SCAG is what passes for a setting guide for FR and it's smaller then GGR. They rely on DMSGUILD to fill the the gaps. Problem is is that DMSGUILD is unofficial. 

 I mean look at W: DH,  AL had to write up their own product,  Durnan's guide to Tavern Keeping to fix the glaring gaps in Chapter 2 because it's cool idea of Chapter 2 was so insanely unsupported by the book itself. 

 If other editions suffer from bloat 5e suffers from anorexia. Seriously I've seen regions in previous editions of FR with far more details and support then I think Ravnica will get.


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## gyor (Oct 20, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> But why fail at an impossible task, when they can succeed at a useful task...?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 Actually it's more like 1 trilogy of novels,  1 lone novel that isn't billed as a Ravnica novel,  but very much is,  and a trilogy of novellas. And a bunch of short stories on their website.


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## Parmandur (Oct 20, 2018)

gyor said:


> Actually it's more like 1 trilogy of novels,  1 lone novel that isn't billed as a Ravnica novel,  but very much is,  and a trilogy of novellas. And a bunch of short stories on their website.




I stand corrected, though the point stands: as far as I can tell (not having read the novels, looking around the Magic info out there), 99%+ of the stories are Tenth District centered, and the Tenth District is itself a huge city within a city. Is that correct?


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## Rossbert (Oct 20, 2018)

The whole place is urban sprawl, much of it abandoned and overgrown, with 10th being the capital and headquarters.


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## gyor (Oct 20, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> I stand corrected, though the point stands: as far as I can tell (not having read the novels, looking around the Magic info out there), 99%+ of the stories are Tenth District centered, and the Tenth District is itself a huge city within a city. Is that correct?




 Partly. Yes the 10th district would be like say Toronto surrounded by a planet sized Greater Toronto Area,  but the rubble belts would be a mix of Detroit and Flint Michigan. 

 It goes like this,  the Ecumenopolis of Ravnica,  City (Capital of Ravnica)  is also called Ravnica, and within that huge city is the 10 district and within the tenth district is 6 precincts. So yeah it's big. 

 But only part of the novels take place in the tenth,  it's one of the most important parts, but other districts do get mentions and visited. Utava is a condemned rubble belt area that is owned by the Orzhov with a small town in the centre, it's an important location as well,  and in fact Teysa is the Baroness of Utava. 

 There is also the Ghost District which acts kind of like Ravnica's Shadowfell and Ethereal Plane. 

 There is Old Ravnica,  basically Ravnica's underdark. 

 The World Soul sort of functions as maybe the Ravnica feywild sort of, maybe,  but more spiritual. 

 Then there are a whole bunch of Zonuts run by the Simic and even a District that is partial submerged. 

 Even the polar regions get mention which where a lot of the fresh water comes from. 

 So just doing the 10 District is like justing doing Waterdeep and saying here is the Forgotten Realms,  ignoring the existance dozen of cities,  nations,  cultures,  and so on. 

 Ravnica also has two moons. It will be interesting comparing fan made Ravnica Planeshift articles and Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica.


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## Parmandur (Oct 20, 2018)

gyor said:


> Partly. Yes the 10th district would be like say Toronto surrounded by a planet sized Greater Toronto Area,  but the rubble belts would be a mix of Detroit and Flint Michigan.
> 
> It goes like this,  the Ecumenopolis of Ravnica,  City (Capital of Ravnica)  is also called Ravnica, and within that huge city is the 10 district and within the tenth district is 6 precincts. So yeah it's big.
> 
> ...




Other than the Tenth District, proper, it seems most of that could be in the Guilds material (there is a sidebar about the Dark Elves of the Golgari, for instance).

There is also room, in terms of fluff, for much more material to be in the "Art of Magic the Gathering: Ravnica" book. Those books are fluff heavy campaign setting guides, huge art filled Gazeeters basically.


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## Juomari Veren (Oct 20, 2018)

Darn, only two new subclasses is a bit of a letdown. I wasn't expecting one per guild or anything but the fact that one is just another cleric domain to add to the 11 we already have is a huge mark against it. Circle of Spores has been a hit and I'm glad it's finally getting out to players officially, but there's a few concepts I can rattle off the top of my head that could probably have made servicable subclasses (Orzhov Warlock patron, Simic Sorcerer origin, and Gruul ranger archetypes come to mind). This all makes me wonder if they're gonna try to eke out another book for more Ravnica content before they finish the sets (there's new Ravnica sets coming out through next winter so they could get one book out by the time they usually put their first/second book out in march of next year), but that'd be pretty bold - especially since the implication is that Nicol Bolas (MtG's current and most-central antagonist) is going to head there and wreak havok, so they'd be exploring a plane embattled between the guilds and this singular evil.

I'm not at all surprised there's no Viashino - the version they previewed in UA was super unfocused. They'd be better off making them lizardmen and reflavoring/swapping the amphibious and bone-crafting traits. There really isn't a race I'm clamoring to see out of this book, especially since minotaurs and centaurs are smaller on Ravnica than on other D&D worlds. But Ravnica isn't really cool for the races, it's cool for the guilds they work for.

It also looks like there's only a few actually new spells - the guilds have subsections denoting spells specific to them, so I wonder if the background choice gives you access to spells if you align yourself to a guild. That's something that I think could benefit from broad expansion - especially since there's a lot of iconic MtG spells that really deserve to transition into the game.

I think for what they're offering, it's gonna depend entirely on the DM to sell D&D to people who are coming over for the first time from MtG. But the book looks like it's gonna be decent at luring D&D players who've never touched a pack into the lore of Magic. I hope this venture is explored further, but I think this book is probably too safe for what it's trying to accomplish and puts a lot more work on the DM to make the setting compelling than it should've.


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## gyor (Oct 20, 2018)

Rossbert said:


> The whole place is urban sprawl, much of it abandoned and overgrown, with 10th being the capital and headquarters.




 I would have like at least a brief over view the other districts and regions like the Ghost District,  Utava,  and the Polar Regions and so on. In all Honesty this book to do things really right should have made three separate books,  a Ravnica Campaign Setting Guide for world lore,  A Ravnica Player's Guide,  and a Ravnica Monster & NPC book. 

 Still GGR will be fun,  just like the SCAG and Wayfarer's Guide to Eberron, too anorexic. 

 Every setting they touched so far,  Ravnica,  Eberron,  Forgotten Realms,  Ravenloft has well well done,  but only half done or less. It quality,  but unfinished to so someone else mentioned,  you have rely on Wikipedia and other sources to make up for it. That is shameful. Heck even Dragon Heist needed an outside suppliment.


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## Parmandur (Oct 20, 2018)

gyor said:


> I would have like at least a brief over view the other districts and regions like the Ghost District,  Utava,  and the Polar Regions and so on. In all Honesty this book to do things really right should have made three separate books,  a Ravnica Campaign Setting Guide for world lore,  A Ravnica Player's Guide,  and a Ravnica Monster & NPC book.
> 
> Still GGR will be fun,  just like the SCAG and Wayfarer's Guide to Eberron, too anorexic.
> 
> Every setting they touched so far,  Ravnica,  Eberron,  Forgotten Realms,  Ravenloft has well well done,  but only half done or less. It quality,  but unfinished to so someone else mentioned,  you have rely on Wikipedia and other sources to make up for it. That is shameful. Heck even Dragon Heist needed an outside suppliment.




We don't know what won't be in the book yet. We know there will be a Tenth District Gazeeter, and a bunch of procedural generation centered on the Guilds. What that last part may contain we will find out in the next few weeks.

They do, essentially, have another book coming, as mentioned earlier, with the Art book. You should check out the Magic Art books, I think you would like their style. Wyatt writes them as old school campaign guides, just without rules.


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## Remathilis (Oct 20, 2018)

I just want to remind you all I was right.


I pointed out multiple times, since SCAG and CoS, that the new norm was settings that lightly season the D&D game, not mega-guides that completely re-write the PHB and MM. People were still convinced that the old paradigm born of box sets and branded supplements would return. And now we're four settings in and that has yet to appear.

Ravnica was the Canary in the coal mine. It was a setting bereft of any D&D tropes from races to magic to monsters. In years past, it would have probably been a complete campaign setting, monster supplement, magic supplement, players guide, and an extensive re-write and ban list from the players handbook to capture the MTG feel and lore. But WotC isn't about that life anymore, so the guide instead assumes most, if not all, D&D tropes live alongside the Magic ones, and indeed take precedence over them when it comes to rules, which if why the color pie of MTG appears completely absent despite literally being the basis of the 10 guilds. 

So we had Forgotten Realms that just fleshes out the default assumptions without radical departure, Eberron that just reflavors and adds more options to the base game without removing any mechanics, Ravnica that does mostly the same, perhaps changing some race options. Ravenloft, as presented in Curse of Strahd, similarly strips the additional mechanics and laundry list of restrictions to focus on horror-themed D&D. Anyone harboring the belief that a Dark Sun or Dragonlance update will not allow paladins, monks or dragonborn is probably going to be disappointed.

Really though, it's for the best. One of the best products, I've been told, is a folio from 1983 with a lot of blank maps and a whiff of lore. Maybe we should look at this as the new Greyhawk folio?


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## Parmandur (Oct 20, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> I just want to remind you all I was right.
> 
> 
> I pointed out multiple times, since SCAG and CoS, that the new norm was settings that lightly season the D&D game, not mega-guides that completely re-write the PHB and MM. People were still convinced that the old paradigm born of box sets and branded supplements would return. And now we're four settings in and that has yet to appear.
> ...




Actually, Mearls did recently discuss what they would do with Dark Sun in these terms on the Happy Fun Hour, and it sounded like he had been giving it a lot of thought. He said they would basically give "restrictions" such as no Illusionists (he said he would limit the Wizard to the Defiler & Preserver Traditions, in a way that sounded like he has already sketched those out as options somewhere) or Sorcerers, but with the acknowledgement in the text that the DM and players can make exceptions. So, genre limits are something they are still going to recommend (notice that Halflings and Dwarves aren't a thing in this book), but WotC doesn't expect to micromanage every table.


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## epithet (Oct 20, 2018)

I have no interest in Ravnica or MtG whatsoever, but I am pleased to see a 5e hardcover that isn't set in the Forgotten Realms.


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## gyor (Oct 20, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> I just want to remind you all I was right.
> 
> 
> I pointed out multiple times, since SCAG and CoS, that the new norm was settings that lightly season the D&D game, not mega-guides that completely re-write the PHB and MM. People were still convinced that the old paradigm born of box sets and branded supplements would return. And now we're four settings in and that has yet to appear.
> ...




 Actually it has a soft ban list,  as I understand officially Ravnica doesn't have Dwarves,  Half Orcs,  Gnomes,  Halflings, Tieflings (that one was silly,  Ravnica has fiends), Dragonborn, not counting planeswalkers, but you can choose to add them. Centaurs,  Elves, Loxodon,  Vedelken, Simic Hybrid,  Humans, Minotaur,  Goblins,  Half Elves. If ones counts subraces,  that is less opinions then just the pure PHB. It less then one could expect from Darksun for a setting that bills itself as a diverse setting. 

 And I don't even consider Ravenloft it's own setting,  it's just a region of the Forgotten Realms Shadowfell now,  instead of a completely separate demiplane. It even uses FR Gods now,  like Lanthder the Morning Lord. Ravenloft is not the first setting to be fed to FR. Kara Tur was originally a completely separate setting,  that FR simply devoured. FR ate part of Spelljammer,  Realmspace. It ate Al Qadim and the Maztica from birth. The Cold Lands were originally part of a video game that later got added FR. The Moonshaes were not originally intended to be part of FR,  someone decided to get Niles to make it an FR novel. 

 But I too knew that Ravnica and no other Setting would get proper support. Every single book in 5e so far,  aside from the core 3 and some APs, is basically two or more books mashed together into one. The only thing that keeps this from being a disaster is the5e is such an effient,  elegant system whose mechanics don't take up a lot of space. If 3e and 4e did this it'd have been unplayable. 

 MTOF is several Races of... style books mashed together,  and then on top of it a MM style book, all mashed together. 

 VGTM is a player's option book mashed together with an MM. 

 XGTE is well named is a great Player's Options book, mashed with an Okay DMs book,  with Shared World Advise that would normally be reserved for a PDF or something,  and an aweful naming guide, which just pure filler. 

 SCAG is a FR Setting guide mixed with FR player's guide,  which is then insanely starved of space even by 5e standards. 

 WGE is one part basic campaign guide to Eberron,  a regional city guide for Sharn,  and a player options book. 

 From the table of contents we know from GGR is one part Campaign Setting Guide,  One Part Players Options, one part AP,  one part MM, one part DM book,  all mashed together and on top of that it should have been at least 100 pages larger. 

 Volo's Guide to Spirits and Specters will be the same way. My guess is it will be a VGTM style book that focuses more on undead and religion based monsters, like celestials,  like you merged Avatars & Pantheons with open grave: secrets of the undead,  a players option book,  and an MM. Maybe some more stuff too. 

 This doesn't mean I'm not looking forward to GGR,  I very much am and the only thing that surprised me was the loss of Vashino. I'm still buying it,  I'm not venting over what could have beens, missed opportunities and the fact that they keep making the same mistakes.


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## gyor (Oct 20, 2018)

epithet said:


> I have no interest in Ravnica or MtG whatsoever, but I am pleased to see a 5e hardcover that isn't set in the Forgotten Realms.




 If it sells well there will be more. So far it seems to be selling well in North America according to Amazon. Ravnica: Broken Pact is doing better then all but the most popular D&D shows on YouTube (it's beating clerical error,  girls, guts,  glory,  for example,  but not dice,  camera,  action.) So I think it has potential.


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## gyor (Oct 20, 2018)

Juomari Veren said:


> Darn, only two new subclasses is a bit of a letdown. I wasn't expecting one per guild or anything but the fact that one is just another cleric domain to add to the 11 we already have is a huge mark against it. Circle of Spores has been a hit and I'm glad it's finally getting out to players officially, but there's a few concepts I can rattle off the top of my head that could probably have made servicable subclasses (Orzhov Warlock patron, Simic Sorcerer origin, and Gruul ranger archetypes come to mind). This all makes me wonder if they're gonna try to eke out another book for more Ravnica content before they finish the sets (there's new Ravnica sets coming out through next winter so they could get one book out by the time they usually put their first/second book out in march of next year), but that'd be pretty bold - especially since the implication is that Nicol Bolas (MtG's current and most-central antagonist) is going to head there and wreak havok, so they'd be exploring a plane embattled between the guilds and this singular evil.
> 
> I'm not at all surprised there's no Viashino - the version they previewed in UA was super unfocused. They'd be better off making them lizardmen and reflavoring/swapping the amphibious and bone-crafting traits. There really isn't a race I'm clamoring to see out of this book, especially since minotaurs and centaurs are smaller on Ravnica than on other D&D worlds. But Ravnica isn't really cool for the races, it's cool for the guilds they work for.
> 
> ...




 For Orzhov Warlock I'd just use Celestial Patron or Undying Patron depending on what you made the Pact with. 

 An Orzhov Sorcerer on the other hand could be interesting. Teysa gets part of her magic from her Korlov bloodline, one of the ruling families of Orzhov,  which extends her lifespan,  allows her to command anything created by Orzhov Magic,  grants magic,  and gives her a disability. 

 But yeah I'm disappointed about so few subclasses too,  but I knew it was possible. Hopefully the backgrounds and guild magic and items will be interesting enough to make up for it. It seems like they made the guild background important enough to almost be subclasses in their own right. Items,  allies,  enemies,  guild spells,  background features,  a boosted renown system tied to guilds.


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## Parmandur (Oct 20, 2018)

gyor said:


> For Orzhov Warlock I'd just use Celestial Patron or Undying Patron depending on what you made the Pact with.
> 
> An Orzhov Sorcerer on the other hand could be interesting. Teysa gets part of her magic from her Korlov bloodline, one of the ruling families of Orzhov,  which extends her lifespan,  allows her to command anything created by Orzhov Magic,  grants magic,  and gives her a disability.
> 
> But yeah I'm disappointed about so few subclasses too,  but I knew it was possible. Hopefully the backgrounds and guild magic and items will be interesting enough to make up for it. It seems like they made the guild background important enough to almost be subclasses in their own right. Items,  allies,  enemies,  guild spells,  background features,  a boosted renown system tied to guilds.




The fact that nearly 19% of the book is taken up by "Guild spells" yet the contents suggest that there are two spells printed (for Dimir and Izzet), makes me very curious. Maybe some heavy reflavoring of existing spells (very, very heavy)...?


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## Mercador (Oct 21, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> I do. It gives me tools to make campaigns and aventures.
> 
> It is also fun to read. Since 4e WotC has forgotten that lore is also one of the reasons people bought D&D products.




So if I was expecting a lore book, I'll be dissappointed? I'm not MtG connoisseur.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 21, 2018)

Mercador said:


> So if I was expecting a lore book, I'll be dissappointed? I'm not MtG connoisseur.




Magic the Gathering lore? Yeah. You'll be disappointed. There is a rich history on Dominaria and many other planes that compose the MtG universe. There are many story arcs often linked to cards blocks. Just trying to explain how the Phyrixians tried to invade Dominaria and the aftermath would take days.  

From MtG's history you could make a dozen monster manuels. Saprolings, thrulls, slivers, ball lightning, Serra Angels, Sengir Vampires, stats for the three Eldrazi, stats for Yagmoth as a demi-god, stats for Nicol Bolas... Just those would be awesome. 

Planewalking explained, would be great. Every MtG players are supposed to be a planewalker and there are plenty of planewalkers who are important NPCs. Urza comes to mind.

Then there are the magical items and artifacts. Dakkon's Black Blade, the Weatherlight, the Mirari, icy manipulators, sol rings, irory towers, Zuran orbs...

There are special places like Ith's Maze, Vesuva, the Diamond Valley...

And there's the spells. Tonnes of spells. 

But we will get 10 guilds with this book. Its... disappointing.


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## gyor (Oct 21, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> The fact that nearly 19% of the book is taken up by "Guild spells" yet the contents suggest that there are two spells printed (for Dimir and Izzet), makes me very curious. Maybe some heavy reflavoring of existing spells (very, very heavy)...?




 Reflavoring,  alterations to spells and changes to spell lists. Like maybe all Guild spells count as class spells for you no matter what your class is. 

 And some spell change in fluff and some change in the new mechanics. Like maybe animate undead and create undead also creates none undead Thrulls for Orzhov and Rakdos. Maybe maybe Animal Shapes for Simic include hybrid creatures. Maybe Izzet's fireball can change damage type or becomes separate Lighteningball,  Thunderball,  Acidball, Poisonball,  Coldball spells. Maybe Conjure Celestial,  becomes conjure fiend for Rakdos and Dimir. Maybe Planar Ally becomes Guild Ally and instead of summoning creates of particular types it summons creatures allied with your guild. Maybe for Boros and Orzhov Conjure Celestial becomes create Angel (of different types) because Ravnica doesn't normally have Couatls. Maybe Spirit Guardians end up reflecting Guild affiliation instead of alignment. Actually Spirit Guardians as an Izzet Spell that looks like Weirds and Elementals and deals energy damage instead of Radiant or Necromantic would be cool. And maybe some are reflavored to act more like MtG sorcery, enchantment and Instant Spells.


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## R_Chance (Oct 21, 2018)

I'm glad they are expanding 5E's available settings. On the other hand I have no interest in Ravnica and only limited interest in Eberron. I'll probably pick up the Eberron book. The Ravnica book will be the first WotC 5E book I haven't bought. Which is, I guess, the problem with setting books in general. I don't run FR btw. I have my own home brew setting and have picked up every book so far to glean useful bits from (and just for reading). Now, I would have picked up a Planescape product even though I never thought about running it. A lot of the material in it was useful back in the day. And would be now. An updated setting would have interested me. A new setting probably would have. MtG doesn't interest me, I haven't played it since it first came out and have only a casual knowledge of the game now. *sigh* I was looking forward to the new books... oh well, time to quit whining. And get back to work. Grading never ends...


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## Parmandur (Oct 21, 2018)

gyor said:


> Reflavoring,  alterations to spells and changes to spell lists. Like maybe all Guild spells count as class spells for you no matter what your class is.
> 
> And some spell change in fluff and some change in the new mechanics. Like maybe animate undead and create undead also creates none undead Thrulls for Orzhov and Rakdos. Maybe maybe Animal Shapes for Simic include hybrid creatures. Maybe Izzet's fireball can change damage type or becomes separate Lighteningball,  Thunderball,  Acidball, Poisonball,  Coldball spells. Maybe Conjure Celestial,  becomes conjure fiend for Rakdos and Dimir. Maybe Planar Ally becomes Guild Ally and instead of summoning creates of particular types it summons creatures allied with your guild. Maybe for Boros and Orzhov Conjure Celestial becomes create Angel (of different types) because Ravnica doesn't normally have Couatls. Maybe Spirit Guardians end up reflecting Guild affiliation instead of alignment. Actually Spirit Guardians as an Izzet Spell that looks like Weirds and Elementals and deals energy damage instead of Radiant or Necromantic would be cool. And maybe some are reflavored to act more like MtG sorcery, enchantment and Instant Spells.




All very possible: whatever it is it is 40 pages of material.


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## epithet (Oct 21, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> ...
> But we will get 10 guilds with this book. Its... disappointing.




It's an interesting choice that WotC made. It seems that people who are interested in Ravnica are feeling "meh" about the book because it is limited in its detail on the setting, and those of us who don't care about Ravnica at all are feeling "meh" about it because all the guild stuff is probably wasted space and a fair number of the monsters and NPCs will need significant revision to be useful in ongoing D&D campaigns. All of us are likely to buy it, though, because it's a starting point for y'all to build on and it has some interesting stat blocks and toys for the rest of us to play with.


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## gyor (Oct 21, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> Magic the Gathering lore? Yeah. You'll be disappointed. There is a rich history on Dominaria and many other planes that compose the MtG universe. There are many story arcs often linked to cards blocks. Just trying to explain how the Phyrixians tried to invade Dominaria and the aftermath would take days.
> 
> From MtG's history you could make a dozen monster manuels. Saprolings, thrulls, slivers, ball lightning, Serra Angels, Sengir Vampires, stats for the three Eldrazi, stats for Yagmoth as a demi-god, stats for Nicol Bolas... Just those would be awesome.
> 
> ...




 Too be fair it's 10 massive global,  multipurpose guilds,  with internal organizations biggered then a regular cities guilds. But also five new races,  two new subclasses, and a bunch of knew monsters including Felidar (winged Felidar), Archons,  Battle Angels,  Orzhov Angels (maybe called Fallen Angels?), Psyshic Vampires,  Thrulls, Undead, ect... powerful Guildmasters like Niv-Mizzet,  Rakdos,  Aurelia,  Isperia,  Jarad, ect..., important NPCs like Teysa,  Izoni Thousand Eyes,  act..., a new spell Encoded Thoughts,  some new magic items like Guild Signets,  Guild Keyrunes,  Mizzarium gizmos,  Illusionist Braces,  and so on. And hopefully important and interesting locations within the 10th district. I figure we will get around 40 to 60 completely new creatures,  and dozens more reflavoured from the MM. Plus a bunch of NPCs and NPC templates.


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## pukunui (Oct 21, 2018)

[MENTION=6670153]gyor[/MENTION]: I don’t know what game you’ve been playing, but it’s been obvious to me ever since the play test period that 5e was the “DIY Edition” of D&D. We’re never going to get more than bare bones minimal coverage of anything because they want us to do it all ourselves.


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## gyor (Oct 21, 2018)

R_Chance said:


> I'm glad they are expanding 5E's available settings. On the other hand I have no interest in Ravnica and only limited interest in Eberron. I'll probably pick up the Eberron book. The Ravnica book will be the first WotC 5E book I haven't bought. Which is, I guess, the problem with setting books in general. I don't run FR btw. I have my own home brew setting and have picked up every book so far to glean useful bits from (and just for reading). Now, I would have picked up a Planescape product even though I never thought about running it. A lot of the material in it was useful back in the day. And would be now. An updated setting would have interested me. A new setting probably would have. MtG doesn't interest me, I haven't played it since it first came out and have only a casual knowledge of the game now. *sigh* I was looking forward to the new books... oh well, time to quit whining. And get back to work. Grading never ends...




 From recycling parts of it for home brew perspective,  many of the monsters in Ravnica and even some NPCs should be of value,  the subclasses and PC races might be as well for your players. There is supposed to be a ton of maps,  many of which should be repurposable for other settings,  some of the spell stuff might be useful,  and the rejigged way they use backgrounds and renown might make for good inspiration. In fact the Guilds themselves could be repurposed. Orzhov turns into a corrupt Kingdom or Theocracy that used to be good,  Simic becomes a Eco friendly Magocracy,  Selysnia becomes a Theocratic Communist stat,  Boros becomes a fantasy Roman Empire or Knights Templar style Knight Order/Nation, Izzet Magitech University, Dimir the Kingdom of a Skull Lord in the Shadowfell or a Thieves Guild.  

 So I can see it as being very useful for people who want to poach elements and inspiration from it.


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## Lord Mhoram (Oct 21, 2018)

gyor said:


> Look under the guilds in the table of contents and it lists Guild Spells and there is a section for magic items.




Which is exactly what I would expect from this kind of D&D book, with no ties to M:tG


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## gyor (Oct 21, 2018)

epithet said:


> It's an interesting choice that WotC made. It seems that people who are interested in Ravnica are feeling "meh" about the book because it is limited in its detail on the setting, and those of us who don't care about Ravnica at all are feeling "meh" about it because all the guild stuff is probably wasted space and a fair number of the monsters and NPCs will need significant revision to be useful in ongoing D&D campaigns. All of us are likely to buy it, though, because it's a starting point for y'all to build on and it has some interesting stat blocks and toys for the rest of us to play with.




 Yeah that sums it up well. It should offer a lot more then it does. But it offers enough to make it worth it. Plus Ravnica will become DMSGUILD legal,  maybe even part or all of MtG's universe beyond that (although I think they can will keep it to Ravnica and generic MtG stuff,  like none setting linked cards from core sets and the like).

 It's also possible that MtG monsters,  spells,  and artifacts,  and races will end up in regular D&D products,  like playable Vampires and Reverants might be be in Volo's Guide to Specters,  maybe some none Ravnica MtG undead and Serra Angels. 

 Something dawned on me. When Ari get referring to Boros style Angels as Battles Angels,  that might be the D&D name for White and Red Mana MtG Angels from now on,  not just Boros  Angels.  Example Angelic Skirmisher,  Besandra,  and others. Maybe pure white Angels will have their own name,  and Black White Mana Angels will be say Fallen or Dark Angels, Green and White Angels,  Angels of Nature,  and so on. 

 One thing I am curious about is how Ravnica style celestial Archons are going to relate to more traditional D&D celestial archons. Both seem very Lawful Good inclined,  both Celestial,  so in say FR it might make sense for the regular D&D Archons to just absorb MtG Archons,  as subtypes of Archon. So say Lantern Archon, Hound Archon,  Trumpet Archon,  Blazing Archon,  Triumvete Archon,  Throne Archon,  Tome Archon. 

 I feel like with the one multiverse thing with D&D settings and with MtG multiverse and D&D merged,  we really need a cosmology book on how all the Setting Elements fit together and interact.


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## neobolts (Oct 21, 2018)

Jester David said:


> This concerns me as well. If the book doesn't contain enough information to run the campaign setting, then what's the point? Just make a setting neutral guild product that people can drop into their homebrew.
> .




Hopefully this is enough in the guilds section to run the setting. i mean the entire sitting is one mega metropolis. Like the 3e Sharn book vs the 3e Eberron book.


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## gyor (Oct 21, 2018)

neobolts said:


> Hopefully this is enough in the guilds section to run the setting. i mean the entire sitting is one mega metropolis. Like the 3e Sharn book vs the 3e Eberron book.




 Between the Guild Section,  MtG Wikis,  and DMGUILD,  it should be fine,  but Art of Ravnica and the novels and short stories and the 10th district chapter,  and the creatures of course,  it should be have enough to run campaigns for the Setting. AL will like release AL Iegal Adventures for Ravnica,  the way it has for Eberron. Who knows if the demand is there,  perhaps they will release more Ravnica and MtG official hardcover products in the future.


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## cbwjm (Oct 21, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> I know what is bothering me so much with this campaign string book. It suffers from the gnome effect. What is missing isn't gnomes though. It's the campaign setting. And planewalking. And iconic MtG spells, artifacts and monsters. And colored magic.
> 
> Guilds aren't what MtG is about. This is a MtG setting book in name only.



For which I'm grateful. This is a MtG setting converted to the DnD multiverse where MtG concepts do not exist. Forcing in MtG concepts like the colour system and planeswalkers would be a mistake in my opinion. As is, it looks like each guild had some of their own unique spells unless those sections in each guild are just talking about the spells they commonly use.


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## Parmandur (Oct 21, 2018)

pukunui said:


> [MENTION=6670153]gyor[/MENTION]: I don’t know what game you’ve been playing, but it’s been obvious to me ever since the play test period that 5e was the “DIY Edition” of D&D. We’re never going to get more than bare bones minimal coverage of anything because they want us to do it all ourselves.




If it works, it works.


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## Parmandur (Oct 21, 2018)

neobolts said:


> Hopefully this is enough in the guilds section to run the setting. i mean the entire sitting is one mega metropolis. Like the 3e Sharn book vs the 3e Eberron book.




Given the nature of the setting, covering the Guilds is pretty much everything. There is no government outside the Megacor...Guilds, nor any religion.


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## gyor (Oct 21, 2018)

Below I list what mobsters I think will be in. 

I think they will want to merge some types of elementals that share a theme,  as Ravnica has a ton of different elemental themed cards. So a Plant Elemental,  Building Elemental,  Energy Elemental, Spark Trooper,  World Soul Colossus (maybe that should be a fey in D&D), for example. 

 Demons that are likely are Woebringer,  Avatar of Discord,  Lord of the Void,  Master of Cruelties (by the way some of these will hopefully get proper names and not just card discriptions), Desecration Demon,  Sire of Insanity,  Rakdos. 

 A variety of giant Wurms,  like Seige Wurm,  Armada Wurm,  and even undead Wurms. 

 Charnal Troll,  maybe some other kinds of Trolls. 

 Moloch

 Dromads

 Slaughterhorn

 Drooling Goodion

 We know Krual are in. (winged krual too). 

 Various Krasis,  like Battering Krasis. 

 D&D Specters and MtG specters are similar,  but Nightviel Specter would be cool. 

 Sphinxes will likely use regular Sphinx type stats,  but Ravnica specific fluff. 

 Omniphibian (a giant frog that makes it's environment look more like it,  instead of looking more like it's environment).

 Virusiods (they were in the books, but not the cards).

 A bunch of Thrill types,  Absolver Thrulls that cast divine magic,  flying Thrills,  Acid Spitting Thrulls, giant beast like Thrulls, Thrull Parasite, Maw Thrulls that eat the dead to make new Thrulls. 

 Orzhov Alms Beast. 

 Indrik. 

 Various giant Golgori Insects like Mortipede and 

 Hypersonic and Pit Dragons and Niv-Mizzet for Dragons. 

 Zeppilid

 Silkwings

 Sporeback Troll

 Mossdog

 Stinkweed Imp

 Simic Skyswallower

 Skeletal Vampire

 Moroii Vampires

 Battle Angels (Boros Style, mostly Red White Angels, and maybe a few white mana angs like light of the legion). Firemane and Warleader types. 

 Dark Angels (just a guess at the group name,  Orzhov style White Black Angels). Despair and Death Pact types. 

 Angels of Serenity (pure white Angels,  no guild affiliation) 

 A host of undead creatures,  although some might just use existing MM creature stats  example Orzhov Vampires will likely use regular Vampire Stats. 

 Nivix Cyclop. 

 Torch, crackling, and tower drakes.

 Various Dimir Horrors I think will translate into Aberrations in D&D. 

 Saproling

 Shamble Shark

 Eelhawks,  Squid Flies,  Waspcrabs. 

 Sabretooth Alley Cat

 Aquastrand Spider

 Weirds like Blistercoil Weird, Frostburner, Fluxcharger, Gelectrode, Petrohydrox

 Bronze Beak Moa. 

 Archons. 

 Felidar,  including winged Felidar. Archons riding winged Felidar.

 Trygon Predator

 It's from the new cards,  but Dream Eater Nightmare Sphinx would be awesome. 

 Likely some more monsters that I haven't mentioned yet. Smog Elemental maybe.

 Nightwings. Looks like across between a Spider and a Bat.


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## gyor (Oct 21, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Given the nature of the setting, covering the Guilds is pretty much everything. There is no government outside the Megacor...Guilds, nor any religion.





 There are some things outside of the guilds,  Goblin gangs,  various racial deities,  Cult of Yore,  Haazda,  maybe more.


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## epithet (Oct 21, 2018)

gyor said:


> ... Plus Ravnica will become DMSGUILD legal,  maybe even part or all of MtG's universe beyond that ...




Oh... oh, oh oh...

Look, I know this is just a game, and I shouldn't take things too seriously. I am, on some level, aware of the futility of nerd rage. But...

I gotta tell you, the idea that Magic settings would be open for 3rd party development on the Dungeon Master's Guild before Dark Sun or Greyhawk makes me actually furious. I've been able to take it pretty much in stride when they poach Greyhawk elements and stick them the matron fornicating Forgotten Realms to be submerged in the murky dishwater of their kitchen sink setting, because to be honest I don't really want the D&D team to start looking for new ways to make Oerth or Athas wonderful. What I do want is to be able to throw money at people who are passionate about those settings in exchange for a quality product consistent with what makes those settings awesome. I want a quality Dark Sun conversion guide and some adventure content. I want to buy the gazetteers that I suspect GreyhawkGrognard has been polishing for a couple of years. I am delighted for OBS and Wizards of the Coast to get their cut. 

But so far, some Hasbro bean counter has decided that that can't happen. I get it--the value of those IPs to Hasbro is in their ability to be monetized, not in the place they hold in the hearts and minds of the people who have campaigned across their fictional expanses. Even understanding all that as I do, it is a slap in the face for some trading card game backstory realm to be opened up on the DM's Guild before The World of Greyhawk, Planescape, or Dark Sun. It's a giant middle finger to those of us who saved up our lunch money in the 1980s to buy TSR products, and maybe set aside some of the beer money in the 90s to get the WotC splatbooks.

Anyway, sorry for ranting, and for the "get off my lawn" screed.

I meant it, though. Sure as hell.


----------



## Kramodlog (Oct 21, 2018)

gyor said:


> Too be fair it's 10 massive global,  multipurpose guilds,  with internal organizations biggered then a regular cities guilds.



Guilds, factions, clans, groups, whatever, rarely work for PCs. They often do not mess well when members of different groups are together. Like member of the Boros Legion working with a member of the the Cult of Radkos? At least Sigil is an interesting location and connects all the planes. 



> But also five new races



Who cares? Who really wanted to play a Loxodon? Races are the least interesting part of D&D. The archetypes of fantasy have been done and now it is just about doing weird stuff. What archetype Dragonborn are filling? Big lizard guy that always is in every fantasy novel? The tiefling has been the real last racial innovation and that dates back to the 90s. 



> two new subclasses,



Meh. New classes would be more interesting.  



> and a bunch of knew monsters including Felidar (winged Felidar), Archons,  Battle Angels,  Orzhov Angels (maybe called Fallen Angels?), Psyshic Vampires,  Thrulls, Undead, ect...



What a new setting needs is a whole manual. And there are more iconic MtG monsters than psychic vampires or Orzhov angels. 



> powerful Guildmasters like Niv-Mizzet,  Rakdos,  Aurelia,  Isperia,  Jarad, ect..., important NPCs like Teysa,  Izoni Thousand Eyes



Not the most iconic MtG NPCs. Urza, Nicol Bolas, Jace, Gerrard on the other hand...



> a new spell Encoded Thoughts,



Yeah, not the list of iconic MtG spells that could have filled a whole book by it self.  



> some new magic items like Guild Signets,  Guild Keyrunes,  Mizzarium gizmos,  Illusionist Braces,  and so on.



Again, not the MtG we are looking for.  



> And hopefully important and interesting locations within the 10th district.



Those are the least interesting locations MtG has to offer. 

Colored magic could have gone beyond vancian spellcasting and expends 5e magic system. Something a long the line of power points.

This whole thing is a wasted opportunity and will be forgotten rapidly. Like 5e's APs.


----------



## Kramodlog (Oct 21, 2018)

cbwjm said:


> For which I'm grateful. This is a MtG setting converted to the DnD multiverse where MtG concepts do not exist. Forcing in MtG concepts like the colour system and planeswalkers would be a mistake in my opinion. As is, it looks like each guild had some of their own unique spells unless those sections in each guild are just talking about the spells they commonly use.




Without the MtG elements, it is just a vanilla setting not much different from the FR. It is a bit pointless.


----------



## Parmandur (Oct 21, 2018)

gyor said:


> Yeah that sums it up well. It should offer a lot more then it does. But it offers enough to make it worth it. Plus Ravnica will become DMSGUILD legal,  maybe even part or all of MtG's universe beyond that (although I think they can will keep it to Ravnica and generic MtG stuff,  like none setting linked cards from core sets and the like).




My wager, based on the way all of the previous Plane Shift booklets are on DMs Guild under the setting of "Plane Shift," is that WotC will open the Guildmaster's Guide and all of those at once to fan use. There could be some wild stuff up there if they do.


----------



## Parmandur (Oct 21, 2018)

epithet said:


> Oh... oh, oh oh...
> 
> Look, I know this is just a game, and I shouldn't take things too seriously. I am, on some level, aware of the futility of nerd rage. But...
> 
> ...




I see where you are coming from here, but OI don't feel the same way about the topic. I see this succeeding as making a Dark Sun or Greyhawk revival more likely in the long run. I expect we will see an Eberron book next year along the lines of the Guildmaster's Guide, if it is successful, and Dark Sun the year after if that is successful. Greyhawk will have it's day if Mearls gets his way, that is for sure.


----------



## dave2008 (Oct 21, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> And iconic MtG spells, artifacts and monsters. And colored magic.




I don't know enough about the setting to say what is missing, but there is whole chapter on treasures and another on NPCs and Monsters.  That would seem to cover 2 of the 4 issues you have, but perhaps I misunderstand the issue.

Though I am not surprise colored magic is out, I never expected that to be ported to a D&D setting.


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## dave2008 (Oct 21, 2018)

epithet said:


> Oh... oh, oh oh...
> 
> Look, I know this is just a game, and I shouldn't take things too seriously. I am, on some level, aware of the futility of nerd rage. But...
> 
> ...




This post has made me happy that in my 30yrs of D&D we never got attached to a setting and only used official material to enhance our own homebrew campaigns.


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## gyor (Oct 21, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> Guilds, factions, clans, groups, whatever, rarely work for PCs. They often do not mess well when members of different groups are together. Like member of the Boros Legion working with a member of the the Cult of Radkos? At least Sigil is an interesting location and connects all the planes.
> 
> Who cares? Who really wanted to play a Loxodon? Races are the least interesting part of D&D. The archetypes of fantasy have been done and now it is just about doing weird stuff. What archetype Dragonborn are filling? Big lizard guy that always is in every fantasy novel? The tiefling has been the real last racial innovation and that dates back to the 90s.
> 
> ...




 Honestly I agree with almost nothing you wrote. Races are far from the least interesting part of D&D,  and I'm not a fan of reducing races too 2 dimensional archetypes. Dragonborn aren't Lizardfolk who aren't Vashino who aren't Purebloods just because  they all have scales and reptilian blood. Each comes with a culture and a history and unique quirks. 

 And Tieflings aren't the last interesting race released. Shadar Kai are/were cool for one example, Purebloods Shades,  Shifters, Goliaths, Changelings,  Loxo (FR Loxodons), Wemics,  and many more. Simic Hybrids and Vedelken are cool as well. 

 The NPCs were are getting are far more interesting to me because they AREN'T Planeswalkers. They actual fit the setting and more important to the function of the Setting. The only Planeswalker who is important within the time period GGR is set in is Jace Beleren and only because he is the living Guildpact. Even Ravnican Planeswalkers like intruders. The Planeswalkers are the biggest reason why the original trilogy (Ravnica Cycle) 
 was 1000 time s better the stories and Novella that came after it. In the original books,  the city itself was a character,  it was gritty,  and immersive,  and Agrus Kos was more interesting then any of the Planeswalkers, none of which showed up in the original novels. 

 Once the Planeswalkers showed up they hijacked the setting and made everything about their Drama,  and they were glorified tourists. The immersive setting faded away into a backdrop,  a simple location where the Planeswalkers happened to be. They where not a positive addition to Ravnica. 

 Don't get me wrong,  I enjoy crossovers,  and plane hopping characters,  like say Elminister,  it's just I adored the original novels, and some of short stories,  but anything with a Planeswalkers just seems to be more about the Planeswalker Metaplot,  the plane it was on was just a tourist destination. 

 I'm really more  of a Ravnica fan then an MtG fan (although I like a couple of their other setting somewhat,  Dominara okay, Therose is cool,  Innistrad I actually like better then Barovia, I'm not a fan of Strahd, ironically Rabia I like, maybe Alara, and Ixalan, not interested at all in the rest, and only Dominara has any real meat to it beside Ravnica and maybe Therose). In fact I had little interest in MtG until reading the Ravnica Cycle,  even the Planeshift articals didn't hold my interest for more then a day. 

 I'm okay with color magic being in the book,  but again I have very little attachment to it emotionally. 

 As for Sigil,  I love Planescape, it's just a matter of time before it returns in some form. But I love Ravnica because it feels like real city,  a metropolis,  bigger even,  where even cities like Waterdeep,  even Sigil itself feel like large towns in compareson. They are vary different.


----------



## dave2008 (Oct 21, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> Guilds, factions, clans, groups, whatever, rarely work for PCs. They often do not mess well when members of different groups are together. Like member of the Boros Legion working with a member of the the Cult of Radkos? At least Sigil is an interesting location and connects all the planes.
> 
> Who cares? Who really wanted to play a Loxodon? Races are the least interesting part of D&D. The archetypes of fantasy have been done and now it is just about doing weird stuff. What archetype Dragonborn are filling? Big lizard guy that always is in every fantasy novel? The tiefling has been the real last racial innovation and that dates back to the 90s.
> 
> ...




You seem to be confusing this for a MtG book.  It is not.  It is a D&D book, it just so happens to be about a MtG setting.  It is trying to let you_* play D&D*_ in a MtG setting, not create a MtG version of D&D.

PS I am not sure what you mean by 5e APs as they have all been a part of FR, so that would be hard to forget (despite the settings name).  If you mean the adventures themselves, well they still sell well and outsell about all other RPG APs including PF.  Will they be remembered 30 yrs down the road?  You knows, but that seems like an odd standard for a game where over 50% of the players don't even play the APs anyway.


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## gyor (Oct 21, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> Without the MtG elements, it is just a vanilla setting not much different from the FR. It is a bit pointless.




 It's massively different from FR,  all the Planeswalkers do is distract from the setting. Ravnica hasn't had a full fledged war in over 10,000 years,  FR has a bunch of wars going on at any given time,  making of them civilization ending. FR has tons of nature,  Ravnica has no completely wild areas,  only condemned urban areas,  Ravnica is less diverse,  but more broadly tolerant then most places in FR. People in Ravnica don't know about other planes,  FR the way existence of Planes well known. Religion is super different on Ravnica and FR and an FR deities' most powerful servants could wipe out what passes for deities on Ravnica. Rakdos might,  just might be more powerful then a Solar, but I'm betting not an Empyrean. Just a guess. The rest won't even be close. Again,  I could be wrong. Only old school Planeswalkers came close to FR demigods. An FR Greater God would normally be way beyond anything in an MtG setting.


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## guachi (Oct 21, 2018)

Since I know so little about Ravnica the high possibility that the setting will officially be left high and dry after one release means I have little incentive to buy this product. At least the 5e Eberron release can be paired with older products if I needed them.


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## cbwjm (Oct 21, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> Without the MtG elements, it is just a vanilla setting not much different from the FR. It is a bit pointless.



Not really, it's a great setting that doesn't need the MtG metasetting elements to be great. Ravnica is very different from FR, I think it is going to work well within the DnD system.


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## Paul Farquhar (Oct 21, 2018)

Settings an rules are too different things. For example, MERP was a Rolemaster based version of Middle Earth. There is also a 5e version. They use the same setting for very different games. The Star Wars setting has had three very different RPGs based on it.

Ravnica is now both a D&D setting and a MtG setting. That doesn't mean MtG rules apply in D&D, any more than D&D rules apply in MtG.


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## Dualazi (Oct 21, 2018)

This one looks to be a hard pass for me, as I have no interest in running a game in Ravnica since it's basically a poor-man's Sigil, but I held out hope that it would be something akin to Mordenkainen's where the crunch (specifically for monsters) would be worth the purchase. As it stands 38 pages worth doesn't cut the mustard, and many of the other aspects (races/classes) were awful based on their previews. Oh well, I hope their next offering is more worthwhile.


----------



## gyor (Oct 21, 2018)

BTW it says I has a three capitals side bar,  but I think it was supposed to be three columns.


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## gyor (Oct 21, 2018)

Dualazi said:


> This one looks to be a hard pass for me, as I have no interest in running a game in Ravnica since it's basically a poor-man's Sigil, but I held out hope that it would be something akin to Mordenkainen's where the crunch (specifically for monsters) would be worth the purchase. As it stands 38 pages worth doesn't cut the mustard, and many of the other aspects (races/classes) were awful based on their previews. Oh well, I hope their next offering is more worthwhile.




 I think the NPC section will have value as well. Maybe templates and stuff. Refluff some of the Guildmasters for homebrew settings.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 21, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> I don't know enough about the setting to say what is missing, but there is whole chapter on treasures and another on NPCs and Monsters. That would seem to cover 2 of the 4 issues you have, but perhaps I misunderstand the issue.



Yes, there is a misunderstanding. The items, spells, monsters, NPCs present in the book aren't the iconic ones associated with MtG. What is present in this book is uninteresting and not what MtG fans want to see in D&D. 

There are far more monsters, items, spells and NPCs from MtG's lore that should come before Jarad. Like Nicol Bolas. He is a ancient (25,000 years), evil and very powerful dragon and planewalker. He also wants to conquer Ravnica. He'll soon invade it and Ravnica will probably have a "Realms Shaking Event" pretty soon. The big bad of the setting isn't present. 



> Though I am not surprise colored magic is out, I never expected that to be ported to a D&D setting.



I'm not surprised, but at the same time it is why designers are paid for and why those books are sold 50$ a pop. So that creative solutions are brought to problems. 

Bringing MtG to D&D made this book interesting. Unfortunately, MtG isn't in this book. It is just a generic book about guilds. And that novelty act wares out pretty fast.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 21, 2018)

gyor said:


> It's massively different from FR,  all the Planeswalkers do is distract from the setting. Ravnica hasn't had a full fledged war in over 10,000 years,  FR has a bunch of wars going on at any given time, making of them civilization ending.



And than the Guildpact was broken. And now Nicol Bolas is gonna invade and Ravnica will get the Yagmoth treatment and that is pretty close to Infinite Avatar Crisis on Toril. 

Ravnica is just Bigger Waterdeep. With guilds! The comparaison to Sigil is misleading as without the guilds Ravnica is just the FR. Without the factions Sigil still has a lot going for it. 



> FR has tons of nature,  Ravnica has no completely wild areas,  only condemned urban areas,



That just means more urban adventures and dozens after dozens of hidden/forgotten pockets of nature for the DMs convinience.  



> Ravnica is less diverse,  but more broadly tolerant then most places in FR.



Meh. Racism only goes so far in a game. 



> People in Ravnica don't know about other planes,  FR the way existence of Planes well known.



Yet, the PCs will still manage a way to go to the planes and there will still be threats from the planes.



> Religion is super different on Ravnica and FR and an FR deities' most powerful servants could wipe out what passes for deities on Ravnica.



Everyone tries to be different from FR's pantheon. 



> Rakdos might,  just might be more powerful then a Solar, but I'm betting not an Empyrean. Just a guess. The rest won't even be close. Again,  I could be wrong. Only old school Planeswalkers came close to FR demigods. An FR Greater God would normally be way beyond anything in an MtG setting.



And those Planewalkers are the interesting part I want to see in a MtG book.


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## SkidAce (Oct 21, 2018)

They are creating just enough framework with these style books for me.

Moneywise a complete conversion from them is impractical, and since different DMs value different things anyway...

this lets me build and add the parts I want.




(I mean the big art books were enough for me, this is gravy)


----------



## Remathilis (Oct 21, 2018)

gyor said:


> Actually it has a soft ban list,  as I understand officially Ravnica doesn't have Dwarves,  Half Orcs,  Gnomes,  Halflings, Tieflings (that one was silly,  Ravnica has fiends), Dragonborn, not counting planeswalkers, but you can choose to add them. Centaurs,  Elves, Loxodon,  Vedelken, Simic Hybrid,  Humans, Minotaur,  Goblins,  Half Elves. If ones counts subraces,  that is less opinions then just the pure PHB. It less then one could expect from Darksun for a setting that bills itself as a diverse setting.




I await the official text of the book to see how the race-thing shakes out. Canonically, the MTG universe has had dwarves (as recently as Kaladesh), orcs (Ixalan), and even fiend-blooded races (Tibalt counts as one, as well as Azra, which are tieflings in all but name from Battlebond), even if Ravnica has lacked them. Either way, this is D&D's Ravnica, so I also don't see any hard-locks on races anymore. I wager a future Dark Sun book might look like human (DS variant), Dwarf (DS subrace), Elf (DS subrace), Halfling (DS subrace), Half-elf, Mul, Half-giant, Aarakroka, Dragoborn  (Dray), Tiefling, and a few other options. 

Moreover, Ravnica literally puts no restriction on class (or subclass for that matter) and I expect that will be a tradition going forward. Races are easy to mix and remix, classes are a different story (based on how WotC has given us dozens of them, but yet to give us an official 13th class). 



gyor said:


> And I don't even consider Ravenloft it's own setting,  it's just a region of the Forgotten Realms Shadowfell now,  instead of a completely separate demiplane. It even uses FR Gods now,  like Lanthder the Morning Lord. Ravenloft is not the first setting to be fed to FR. Kara Tur was originally a completely separate setting,  that FR simply devoured. FR ate part of Spelljammer,  Realmspace. It ate Al Qadim and the Maztica from birth. The Cold Lands were originally part of a video game that later got added FR. The Moonshaes were not originally intended to be part of FR,  someone decided to get Niles to make it an FR novel.




You're completely off on Ravenloft. Ravenloft (as I6) was setting neutral and didn't imply a demi-plane at all; that came with the 2e campaign setting. WotC backtracked on that in Expedition, then soft-embraced the demi-plane idea (devoid of the larger Demiplane of Dread) in 4e before splitting the difference in 5e. The Morninglord IS Lathandar, but he's been a fixture of Barovia since Vampires in the Mist back in the 2e era (Thanks to Jandar Sunstar bringing the faith over). In fact, Ravenloft was devoid of any official religions (outside a few domain specific ones like G'Henna) for most of its 2e run. CoS implies the Morninglord may actually NOT be Lathandar though thanks to CoS's retcon of the faith being older than the demiplane and coming from Strahd's "unnamed prime world" of origin.

So Ravenloft is still fairly independent from Faerun (except for nosy adventurers from there who end up in Barovia) but its far less independent than it was during the late 2e run.




gyor said:


> Volo's Guide to Spirits and Specters will be the same way. My guess is it will be a VGTM style book that focuses more on undead and religion based monsters, like celestials,  like you merged Avatars & Pantheons with open grave: secrets of the undead,  a players option book,  and an MM. Maybe some more stuff too.




Where is this coming from? Is there another announced book or some form of speculation?



gyor said:


> This doesn't mean I'm not looking forward to GGR,  I very much am and the only thing that surprised me was the loss of Vashino. I'm still buying it,  I'm not venting over what could have beens, missed opportunities and the fact that they keep making the same mistakes.




I was hoping it'd be a touch crunchier, but I'm probably still picking it up. I like MTG and D&D, and the idea of a setting that straddles both games is appealing, even if I don't intend to run it any time soon.


----------



## gyor (Oct 21, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> And than the Guildpact was broken. And now Nicol Bolas is gonna invade and Ravnica will get the Yagmoth treatment and that is pretty close to Infinite Avatar Crisis on Toril.
> 
> Ravnica is just Bigger Waterdeep. With guilds! The comparaison to Sigil is misleading as without the guilds Ravnica is just the FR. Without the factions Sigil still has a lot going for it.
> 
> ...




 I can play this game too. 

 Athas,  just FR but with more sand! 

 Eberron, exactly like FR,  but with more Dragonshards and Warforged! 

 Planescape exactly like FR. It actually is closet to FR IMO, because it's basically the entire D&D Multuverse,  but centred on Sigil.  In fact even in Sigil Planescape is more like FR then Ravnica is, Planescape and FR share a lot of cultures,  races,  gods,  and characters,  and so on. There has even book Planescape FR crossover books. Greyhawk is the only still separate setting from FR that is more similar to it. Greyhawk is closer and that is only because FR ate most of it's best NPCs. 

 Ravenloft is just like the Forgotten Realms,  because FR straight up ate it.


----------



## Parmandur (Oct 21, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> I await the official text of the book to see how the race-thing shakes out. Canonically, the MTG universe has had dwarves (as recently as Kaladesh), orcs (Ixalan), and even fiend-blooded races (Tibalt counts as one, as well as Azra, which are tieflings in all but name from Battlebond), even if Ravnica has lacked them. Either way, this is D&D's Ravnica, so I also don't see any hard-locks on races anymore. I wager a future Dark Sun book might look like human (DS variant), Dwarf (DS subrace), Elf (DS subrace), Halfling (DS subrace), Half-elf, Mul, Half-giant, Aarakroka, Dragoborn  (Dray), Tiefling, and a few other options.
> 
> Moreover, Ravnica literally puts no restriction on class (or subclass for that matter) and I expect that will be a tradition going forward. Races are easy to mix and remix, classes are a different story (based on how WotC has given us dozens of them, but yet to give us an official 13th class).
> 
> ...



Volo's Guide to Spirits & Spectres is an off-hand joke in Waterdeep Dragon Heist, when Volo as NPC is discussing his future plans. It's an alcohol pun.


----------



## Parmandur (Oct 21, 2018)

Dualazi said:


> This one looks to be a hard pass for me, as I have no interest in running a game in Ravnica since it's basically a poor-man's Sigil, but I held out hope that it would be something akin to Mordenkainen's where the crunch (specifically for monsters) would be worth the purchase. As it stands 38 pages worth doesn't cut the mustard, and many of the other aspects (races/classes) were awful based on their previews. Oh well, I hope their next offering is more worthwhile.



I count ~80 pages in the beastiary...?


----------



## Remathilis (Oct 21, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> Guilds, factions, clans, groups, whatever, rarely work for PCs. They often do not mess well when members of different groups are together. Like member of the Boros Legion working with a member of the the Cult of Radkos? At least Sigil is an interesting location and connects all the planes.




And yet I can shuffle a Vraska, Golgari Queen in with Trolstani Discordant in an Abzan deck and the two play nice together. In fact, my EDH deck has cards from Radkos, Boros, and Orhzov all in it. I don't see their being any more issue with mixing guilds than there would be with a Harper and a Zhent in AL or a Mercykiller and a Xaostict in Planescape. 



Kramodlog said:


> Who cares? Who really wanted to play a Loxodon? Races are the least interesting part of D&D. The archetypes of fantasy have been done and now it is just about doing weird stuff. What archetype Dragonborn are filling? Big lizard guy that always is in every fantasy novel? The tiefling has been the real last racial innovation and that dates back to the 90s.




So you think that the seven races in the AD&D PHB should be the only races ever in fantasy, got it.



Kramodlog said:


> Meh. New classes would be more interesting.




WotC is allergic to new classes, as evidenced by the 35th redrafts of Mystic/Psion, Artificer, and the abandonment of the revised ranger concept. 



Kramodlog said:


> What a new setting needs is a whole manual. And there are more iconic MtG monsters than psychic vampires or Orzhov angels.




It sounds less like you want D&D supplement for a MTG setting and more like you want an MTG RPG that is cross-compatible with D&D.



Kramodlog said:


> Not the most iconic MtG NPCs. Urza, Nicol Bolas, Jace, Gerrard on the other hand...




None of which have origin on Ravnica. In fact, only two even have ties to the plane (Jace became the Guildpact, Bolas is coming to tear things up). The others you mentioned have been dead for a thousand years in the timeframe. 



Kramodlog said:


> Yeah, not the list of iconic MtG spells that could have filled a whole book by it self.




Yeah, spells like Lightning Bolt, Counterspell, Fireball, and... uh, well look at that...



Kramodlog said:


> Again, not the MtG we are looking for.




Not the MtG YOU'RE looking for!



Kramodlog said:


> Those are the least interesting locations MtG has to offer.




The Planechase series covered some of the biggest names in MtG (Dominaria, Innistrad, Zendikar) as well as some newer ones (Amonket, Kaladesh, Ixalan). Ravnica, the setting with soon to be NINE card-sets set in it, is getting a hardback rather than a PDF. Aside from Pharexia, where do you think they should have covered? 



Kramodlog said:


> Colored magic could have gone beyond vancian spellcasting and expends 5e magic system. Something a long the line of power points.




Back to the "separate RPG with all new rules that is compatible with D&D" magical Christmasland thinking...



Kramodlog said:


> This whole thing is a wasted opportunity and will be forgotten rapidly. Like 5e's APs.




Aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?


----------



## gyor (Oct 21, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Volo's Guide to Spirits & Spectres is an off-hand joke in Waterdeep Dragon Heist, when Volo as NPC is discussing his future plans. It's an alcohol pun.




 The first instance of VGTSS mentioned in W: DH it was as an alcohol pun.  The second time it was mentioned it wasn't. If the joke had been the only mention I'd have written it off as a joke,  but twice and the second mention more serious, I feel positive it's an Easter Egg, Volo's Guide to Spirits and Specters is coming,  likely late Winter/Early Spring is my guess.


----------



## Kramodlog (Oct 21, 2018)

cbwjm said:


> Not really, it's a great setting that doesn't need the MtG metasetting elements to be great. Ravnica is very different from FR, I think it is going to work well within the DnD system.




Let's flip this a second and see if the logic still applies. Say WotC used D&D to make some MtG cards. I would expect to see stuff like Bigby's hand spells, Magic Missile, Vorpal sword, the Eye of Vecna, Drizzt, Elminster, Raistlin, etc, cards. Not _all_ of them and maybe not them specifically, but some similarly iconic elements tied to the D&D brand. If those wouldn't be turned into cards, what would be the point of doing a D&D MtG block?


----------



## gyor (Oct 21, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> I count ~80 pages in the beastiary...?




 I don't think he is willing to count the NPCs as part of the Beastiary.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 21, 2018)

gyor said:


> I can play this game too.
> 
> Athas,  just FR but with more sand!
> 
> Eberron, exactly like FR,  but with more Dragonshards and Warforged!



Indeed. This is why ultimately at our home game we abandonned settings and started games in Sigil and visited different worlds during a campaign. It boiled down to this week we'll do D&D with sand and psionics or D&D gothic horror or D&D steam-ish punk. It is something the folks at Paizo understood when making Golarion (they benefited from 30 years insight and none of the restraints) with all sort of zones with different vibes on the same planet. 

Buying campaign guides gives DMs a premade worlds, NPCs, items, history, etc, but they need to add something new to D&D to be worthwhile. Brightright was never interesting cause it didn't do much different and now it is forgotten. Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Mystara were forgotten cause the FR just ate them up by doing the same thing, but better. Right now Ravnica doesn't stand appart. It had a chance with the MtG angle, but that was dropped.


----------



## Parmandur (Oct 21, 2018)

gyor said:


> The first instance of VGTSS mentioned in W: DH it was as an alcohol pun.  The second time it was mentioned it wasn't. If the joke had been the only mention I'd have written it off as a joke,  but twice and the second mention more serious, I feel positive it's an Easter Egg, Volo's Guide to Spirits and Specters is coming,  likely late Winter/Early Spring is my guess.




I don't think it will happen, but you know what, you get mad bragging rights if it does.



gyor said:


> I don't think he is willing to count the NPCs as part of the Beastiary.




The NPC stat blocks seem more useful than the straight monsters, honestly. Having a new crazed cultist or mad wizard stat block is just as useful for the Realms as for Ravnica.


----------



## gyor (Oct 21, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> Let's flip this a second and see if the logic still applies. Say WotC used D&D to make some MtG cards. I would expect to see stuff like Bigby's hand spells, Magic Missile, Vorpal sword, the Eye of Vecna, Drizzt, Elminster, Raistlin, etc, cards. Not _all_ of them and maybe not them specifically, but some similarly iconic elements tied to the D&D brand. If those wouldn't be turned into cards, what would be the point of doing a D&D MtG block?




 The equivilant of Elminister,  Drizzt, Volo, Farideh,  Minsc, Szazz Tam, ect..., is Teysa,  Jarad,  Feather,  Aurelia, Izoni,  Emarra, Livonia, Agrus Kos, and so on,  not Ajani Goldman's,  Chandra Naalar,  Dack Feyden,  Kaya,  Nahari,  Karn, Sorin Markov,  act... 

 So yeah I'd expect an Elminister card if they were doing a Forgotten Realms MtG deck,  but not if they were doing Darksun deck or Dragonlance. 

 There is only a few characters in D&D outside plan escape for whom plane hopping is important. Mordikien, Nezram World walker,  and a couple of others. I would not expect to see any of them except Elminister in an FR deck,  maybe Nezram. That is it. 

 Still I think they specifically avoided stating Planeswalkers,  not even Jace,  because I don't think they know how they are going to handle MtG style Planeswalkers in D&D,  because it asks too many questions they don't want to answer,  it highlights the differences in the MtG and D&D cosmologies. 

 Example,  Elminister could Planeshift a whole bunch of people between planes with simple spells without breaking a sweat. Nicol Bolas post mending could not do that no matter how hard he tried. No MtG planeswalkers could. Even the Planar Bridge can't take living matter across it. 

 How do Planeswalkers interact with Sigil? 

 I mean can you imagine Nicol Bolas discovering Sigil, with portals to everywhere his head would explode. Sigilian would look at Nicol Bolas as pretentious country bumpkin. 

 Oh and Ravnica isn't called a Plane in D&D at all,  it gets referee to as a world,  because Ravnica is just another part of the Material Plane now,  another crystal sphere. In MtG it was seen as an actual Plane of its own. 

 Which makes most of the Planeswalkers,  world walkers.


----------



## gyor (Oct 21, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> Let's flip this a second and see if the logic still applies. Say WotC used D&D to make some MtG cards. I would expect to see stuff like Bigby's hand spells, Magic Missile, Vorpal sword, the Eye of Vecna, Drizzt, Elminster, Raistlin, etc, cards. Not _all_ of them and maybe not them specifically, but some similarly iconic elements tied to the D&D brand. If those wouldn't be turned into cards, what would be the point of doing a D&D MtG block?




 The equivilant of Elminister,  Drizzt, Volo, Farideh,  Minsc, Szazz Tam, ect..., is Teysa,  Jarad,  Feather,  Aurelia, Izoni,  Emarra, Livonia, Agrus Kos, and so on,  not Ajani Goldman's,  Chandra Naalar,  Dack Feyden,  Kaya,  Nahari,  Karn, Sorin Markov,  act... 

 So yeah I'd expect an Elminister card if they were doing a Forgotten Realms MtG deck,  but not if they were doing Darksun deck or Dragonlance. 

 There is only a few characters in D&D outside plan escape for whom plane hopping is important. Mordikien, Nezram World walker,  and a couple of others. I would not expect to see any of them except Elminister in an FR deck,  maybe Nezram. That is it. 

 Still I think they specifically avoided stating Planeswalkers,  not even Jace,  because I don't think they know how they are going to handle MtG style Planeswalkers in D&D,  because it asks too many questions they don't want to answer,  it highlights the differences in the MtG and D&D cosmologies. 

 Example,  Elminister could Planeshift a whole bunch of people between planes with simple spells without breaking a sweat. Nicol Bolas post mending could not do that no matter how hard he tried. No MtG planeswalkers could. Even the Planar Bridge can't take living matter across it. 

 How do Planeswalkers interact with Sigil? 

 I mean can you imagine Nicol Bolas discovering Sigil, with portals to everywhere his head would explode. Sigilian would look at Nicol Bolas as pretentious country bumpkin. 

 Oh and Ravnica isn't called a Plane in D&D at all,  it gets referee to as a world,  because Ravnica is just another part of the Material Plane now,  another crystal sphere. In MtG it was seen as an actual Plane of its own. 

 Which makes most of the Planeswalkers,  world walkers.


----------



## Kramodlog (Oct 21, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> And yet I can shuffle a Vraska, Golgari Queen in with Trolstani Discordant in an Abzan deck and the two play nice together.



Yeah, when playing MtG roleplay is thrown out the window. You can have Jace and Bolas in the same deck. It doesn't mean anything. That is a pretty silly argument, you tried to make.

Of course maybe you play D&D with no roleplay, no lore, no background... Just a competition between players. 



> So you think that the seven races in the AD&D PHB should be the only races ever in fantasy, got it.



Hello strawman my old friend, you've come to talk again. 



> WotC is allergic to new classes



And that is terrible. A great loss for players and DMs. 



> It sounds less like you want D&D supplement for a MTG setting and more like you want an MTG RPG that is cross-compatible with D&D.



Nope. I want what is advertized. MtG in D&D. Not a new generic setting like what is being produced. 



> None of which have origin on Ravnica.



Indeed. Ravnica is a bad setting for this. Dominaria would have made more sense for this product to be interesting and in brand.  



> Yeah, spells like Lightning Bolt, Counterspell, Fireball, and... uh, well look at that...



Those are the only MtG iconic spells? Wow. 



> Not the MtG YOU'RE looking for!



Indeed. WotC won't get my money and still stays irrelevant when it comes to RPG innovation. Its been what, a decade now that they haven't produced anything of note? Good thing for them the brand is strong. In fact it is surprising it stays so strong. 



> The Planechase series covered some of the biggest names in MtG (Dominaria, Innistrad, Zendikar) as well as some newer ones (Amonket, Kaladesh, Ixalan). Ravnica, the setting with soon to be NINE card-sets set in it, is getting a hardback rather than a PDF. Aside from Pharexia, where do you think they should have covered?



For a the first MtG D&D official product? Dominaria. Start with the basic and iconic stuff. Brand identity.



> Back to the "separate RPG with all new rules that is compatible with D&D" magical Christmasland thinking...



Another strawman. Anyway, a power point system to represent mana is pretty easy to make and compatible with the core books for pros like the ones that work at WotC and the subcontracters they hire.


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## gyor (Oct 21, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> Yeah, when playing MtG roleplay is thrown out the window. You can have Jace and Bolas in the same deck. It doesn't mean anything. That is a pretty silly argument, you tried to make.
> 
> Of course maybe you play D&D with no roleplay, no lore, no background... Just a competition between players.
> 
> ...




 Ironically Dominaria is the single MtG setting most like the Forgotten Realms by a country mile. Both are archeology worlds. Dominaria is MtG's "kitchen sink setting" with deep lore and a long history,  like FR. I can't believe you complain that Ravnica is just like FR and then say you would have preferred Dominaria be the first MtG,  when Dominaria occupies the exact same thematic space with FR!


----------



## Kramodlog (Oct 21, 2018)

gyor said:


> The equivilant of Elminister,  Drizzt, Volo, Farideh,  Minsc, Szazz Tam, ect..., is Teysa,  Jarad,  Feather,  Aurelia, Izoni,  Emarra, Livonia, Agrus Kos, and so on,  not Ajani Goldman's,  Chandra Naalar,  Dack Feyden,  Kaya,  Nahari,  Karn, Sorin Markov,  act...
> 
> So yeah I'd expect an Elminister card if they were doing a Forgotten Realms MtG deck,  but not if they were doing Darksun deck or Dragonlance.



And then there are the Vorpal swords and Magic Missiles that are part of all settings and would indeed by in a D&D MtG cross-over no matter the setting. 

But your missing the point by focusing on the tree rather than the forest. With this product they aren't on brand and produced something that misses the point when incorporating the MtG setting in the D&D one. 



> Still I think they specifically avoided stating Planeswalkers,  not even Jace,  because I don't think they know how they are going to handle MtG style Planeswalkers in D&D,  because it asks too many questions they don't want to answer,  it highlights the differences in the MtG and D&D cosmologies.
> 
> Example,  Elminister could Planeshift a whole bunch of people between planes with simple spells without breaking a sweat. Nicol Bolas post mending could not do that no matter how hard he tried. No MtG planeswalkers could. Even the Planar Bridge can't take living matter across it.



And yet you'll get lots of planar interaction.

 How do Planeswalkers interact with Sigil? 

 I mean can you imagine Nicol Bolas discovering Sigil, with portals to everywhere his head would explode. Sigilian would look at Nicol Bolas as pretentious country bumpkin. 

 Oh and Ravnica isn't called a Plane in D&D at all,  it gets referee to as a world,  because Ravnica is just another part of the Material Plane now,  another crystal sphere. In MtG it was seen as an actual Plane of its own. 

 Which makes most of the Planeswalkers,  world walkers.[/QUOTE]
Designers get paid to solve these issues and people pay 50$ for those solutions. Now it seems people will still pay 50$, but won't get much in return for it. Well guilds. 50$ worth of guilds...

I don't know. I'm making a bigger case out of this because I'm disappointed. We started playing MtG in the 90s when it was young and fresh. We already has been playing D&D for a couple of years. We spend hours talking about how a card or a D&D elements would be stated in the other game. 20 years later they finally do a cross-over and this is the best they can do? I'm not whelmed and I do not see why it should be incorporated into a D&D game as the guild angle will only draw comparaisons to Sigil.


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## Satyrn (Oct 21, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Given the nature of the setting, covering the Guilds is pretty much everything. There is no government outside the Megacor...Guilds, nor any religion.




Oh . . . Now I'm curious to see how easily I could convert these guilds for my own use as Hyperion, Torgue and all the rest.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 21, 2018)

gyor said:


> Ironically Dominaria is the single MtG setting most like the Forgotten Realms by a country mile. Both are archeology worlds. Dominaria is MtG's "kitchen sink setting" with deep lore and a long history,  like FR. I can't believe you complain that Ravnica is just like FR and then say you would have preferred Dominaria be the first MtG,  when Dominaria occupies the exact same thematic space with FR!



Remember, I aready agreed with you the D&D settings were similar and it was just a tweek of flavor.

Both are like the FR, but at least with one of them you can add "on brand" MtG stuff and not just guilds. As I said before, settings are just the flavor of the week. Sand and psionics D&D, gothic horror D&D, steampunk-ish D&D, and we could have had MtG D&D. Instead we get guilds D&D. But we already had that with Sigil.


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## Rossbert (Oct 21, 2018)

One of the weird things in the setting was that while many of the guildmasters had achieve-supremacy-of-the-world plans, the less insane ones didn't really bother because, for example the recycling and farming group can't really replace the magical and mechanical infrastructure group or vice versa so the guilds almost had a mutual destruction set up even without the magically binding wold-wide contract.

Edit: Sorry Satyrn, my quote button didn't work, but that was related to your post.


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## epithet (Oct 21, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> ... Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Mystara were forgotten cause the FR just ate them up by doing the same thing, but better. ...




Well, that's just wrong. Greyhawk set out a world shaped by religious and political conflict from a wargamer perspective. Dragonlance is a setting defined by the Lakhesis/Paladine conflict, which informs every aspect of the world. Mystara is a totally gonzo "this is here, that is there, don't ask why" kind of setting, a kitchen sink where none of the plates or bowls are piled on top of one another but nestle edge to edge in a sort of fairytale kingdom tapestry.

The Forgotten Realms is a "we have everything" cataclysm-of-the-week hot mess of a setting that doesn't do any of those elements as well as the settings defined by them, but takes a half-assed stab at doing all of those things and then tries to sell you on variety. A lot of people like it, to be sure, and there is something to be said for a setting that can accomodate pretty much anything and everything you throw at it. It's just not my thing.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 21, 2018)

epithet said:


> Well, that's just wrong. Greyhawk set out a world shaped by religious and political conflict from a wargamer perspective. Dragonlance is a setting defined by the Lakhesis/Paladine conflict, which informs every aspect of the world. Mystara is a totally gonzo "this is here, that is there, don't ask why" kind of setting, a kitchen sink where none of the plates or bowls are piled on top of one another but nestle edge to edge in a sort of fairytale kingdom tapestry.



If they are so different, why didthe FR ate them up? Why are the more different ones like Dark Sun, Planescape and Spelljammer more requested when asking WotC for new settings?



> The Forgotten Realms is a "we have everything" cataclysm-of-the-week hot mess of a setting that doesn't do any of those elements as well as the settings defined by them, but takes a half-assed stab at doing all of those things and then tries to sell you on variety.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## epithet (Oct 21, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> ...
> But the more I think about the guilds, the more I think of WotC's RPGsport/streaming/competition thing they want to do. Guilds can help set up tribes for competitive play and people get emotionally invested in tribes. Gryffindor vs Slytherin, I mean the Azorius Senate vs the Gruul.
> 
> Ravnica comes with pre-baked tribes and because it comes from MtG, so you get a mass of MtG fans for the streaming channel.
> ...




You're spot-on, obviously. This is nothing but a cross-promotion product to boost YouTube and Twitch streaming advert/sub revenue and collect Magic and D&D players into one marketing pool to shake down for e-sport development. It's clearly not designed to give D&D players something they've been asking for, and it doesn't seem to to be giving Magic players the tie-in mechanics they want, either. Maybe they're crossing  the streams of Magic and D&D hoping to create enough new revenue to offset Hasbro's disappointment in the Star Wars toy line.


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## Paul Farquhar (Oct 21, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> I want what is advertized. MtG in D&D.




Quote or it didn't happen.

This was not and is not what was advertised.


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## Marandahir (Oct 21, 2018)

Do we know if we're going to get "The Art of Magic: The Gathering – Ravnica"?

If so, that would probably fill in people's need for a true gazeteer of lore to go alongside this crunchy campaign book.


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## Parmandur (Oct 21, 2018)

Marandahir said:


> Do we know if we're going to get "The Art of Magic: The Gathering – Ravnica"?
> 
> If so, that would probably fill in people's need for a true gazeteer of lore to go alongside this crunchy campaign book.



Yup, it is coming early in the New Year.


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## Parmandur (Oct 21, 2018)

They've made it very clear from literally Day One, this is not a Magic: the Gathering book. It is a D&D book, about Ravnica as a setting.

Comparing Ravnica to Planescape is very shallow: both have a city, and factions. Neither the city, the factions nor the genre of story involved is similar. It's like saying Star Wars is basically just Julius Cesar's Gallic Wars, because both have swords and an Empire.


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## Parmandur (Oct 21, 2018)

epithet said:


> You're spot-on, obviously. This is nothing but a cross-promotion product to boost YouTube and Twitch streaming advert/sub revenue and collect Magic and D&D players into one marketing pool to shake down for e-sport development. It's clearly not designed to give D&D players something they've been asking for, and it doesn't seem to to be giving Magic players the tie-in mechanics they want, either. Maybe they're crossing  the streams of Magic and D&D hoping to create enough new revenue to offset Hasbro's disappointment in the Star Wars toy line.



Why can't it be both...?


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## Rossbert (Oct 21, 2018)

I like Ravnica as a setting, though I prefer it as an isolated world with Guildpact intact instead of the later meta narrative.

A world that has magically bound a bunch of rivals into a symbiotic relationship to prevent the destruction of the world is rife for lots of different plots even before you add in the side-effects of various ventures.  It does end up with a little bit of an Ebberron feel as a thought experiment, just taken up to a new level.


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## R_Chance (Oct 22, 2018)

gyor said:


> From recycling parts of it for home brew perspective,  many of the monsters in Ravnica and even some NPCs should be of value,  the subclasses and PC races might be as well for your players. There is supposed to be a ton of maps,  many of which should be repurposable for other settings,  some of the spell stuff might be useful,  and the rejigged way they use backgrounds and renown might make for good inspiration. In fact the Guilds themselves could be repurposed. Orzhov turns into a corrupt Kingdom or Theocracy that used to be good,  Simic becomes a Eco friendly Magocracy,  Selysnia becomes a Theocratic Communist stat,  Boros becomes a fantasy Roman Empire or Knights Templar style Knight Order/Nation, Izzet Magitech University, Dimir the Kingdom of a Skull Lord in the Shadowfell or a Thieves Guild.
> 
> So I can see it as being very useful for people who want to poach elements and inspiration from it.




Good point. I just have to weigh the useful material against the price. I suspect I would be picking up more spells, subclasses and the like rather than organizations (which my game has in plenty already). We'll see.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 22, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Quote or it didn't happen.
> 
> This was not and is not what was advertised.




I'm glad to be the first one to tell you Ravnica is in the MtG universe and that MtG has had a few blocks set on Ravnica since then. Welcome to 2005!


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## Kramodlog (Oct 22, 2018)

epithet said:


> You're spot-on, obviously. This is nothing but a cross-promotion product to boost YouTube and Twitch streaming advert/sub revenue and collect Magic and D&D players into one marketing pool to shake down for e-sport development. It's clearly not designed to give D&D players something they've been asking for, and it doesn't seem to to be giving Magic players the tie-in mechanics they want, either. Maybe they're crossing  the streams of Magic and D&D hoping to create enough new revenue to offset Hasbro's disappointment in the Star Wars toy line.




And that is even more terrible than just wasting an opportunity to mix D&D and MtG. 

Hasbro trying to milk D&D, a game they do not understand, resulted in the 4e debacle. 4e really hurt the D&D brand and even managed to get it shelved for 2 years. 


What a waste 5e is turning out to be.


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## Parmandur (Oct 22, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> I'm glad to be the first one to tell you Ravnica is in the MtG universe and that MtG has had a few blocks set on Ravnica since then. Welcome to 2005!



Yet they have been clear from word go that this book is not a Magic book at all. No advertisement to the contrary, unless you have seen something I haven't.


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## cbwjm (Oct 22, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Yet they have been clear from word go that this book is not a Magic book at all. No advertisement to the contrary, unless you have seen something I haven't.



I know I haven't heard anything to the contrary. This is a MtG setting converted to DnD, not MtG converted to DnD. People might want the latter but this was never touted as such. I think it's going to be great, MtG has some incredible worlds that are just perfect for conversion to DnD, it's why I like the planeshift documents so much. I've even started a conversion of Theros to DnD using information on the MtG website.


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## flametitan (Oct 22, 2018)

Having not followed mtg, a part of me is still wondering as a player, "Why play in Ravnica?"

Is it because it's a city that covers the world? If so, what does having it span the entire world offer that playing an urban game in a regular city doesn't? It is a Metropolis style city, a Gotham style city? Is it multiple different cities depending on where you go?
Is it because of the guilds? If so, what do the guilds offer that makes them different from feuding factions in other settings? Do the factions have to be in Ravnica to be effective, or could they stand on their own, divorced from Ravnica?

For all the problems with Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron, it does an _excellent_ job telling you why you'd want to play in Eberron.


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## Parmandur (Oct 22, 2018)

flametitan said:


> Having not followed mtg, a part of me is still wondering as a player, "Why play in Ravnica?"
> 
> Is it because it's a city that covers the world? If so, what does having it span the entire world offer that playing an urban game in a regular city doesn't? It is a Metropolis style city, a Gotham style city? Is it multiple different cities depending on where you go?
> Is it because of the guilds? If so, what do the guilds offer that makes them different from feuding factions in other settings? Do the factions have to be in Ravnica to be effective, or could they stand on their own, divorced from Ravnica?
> ...



It's the Guilds, yes. Their interlocking, pseudo-Cyberpunk web of relationships is a different setting for D&D.

Honestly, I don't expect to run or play in Ravnica anytime soon (though I have some thoughts percolating about retooling Dead in Thay from TftYP for Ravnica). But I am interested in the fluff, the player options and the monsters. The procedural generation tools can have definite use as well.


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## gyor (Oct 22, 2018)

For those that want a Planeswalkers class with colour mana, Loyalty Counters, and spell point casting and so on, I'm betting that such a class will quickly appear on DMSGUILD after Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica is published by a fan. I know that is not as satisfying as an official version, but perhaps its a silver lining.


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## Azzy (Oct 22, 2018)

Really, I would have preferred Zendikar, but whatever.


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## cbwjm (Oct 22, 2018)

Azzy said:


> Really, I would have preferred Zendikar, but whatever.



Zendikar is basically DnD in MtG, though I guess it was different enough to warrant a setting book outside of a planeshift document or maybe it wasn't chosen because it has a planeshift document.


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## SkidAce (Oct 22, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> What a waste 5e is turning out to be.




Really?

They could put out HORRIBLE settings for the next five years, and we (my group and everyone I anecdotally know) would still have fun and play 5th edition.

I understood (didn't agree) your distaste for Ravnica, but 5e being a waste I do not understand.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 22, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Yet they have been clear from word go that this book is not a Magic book at all. No advertisement to the contrary, unless you have seen something I haven't.




Yes. I've seen Ravnica as part of the MtG universe since 2005. True story. It is, in part, why they used it instead of some new setting build from scratch. If you can't wrap you hear around Ravnica being part of the MtG universe, I can't help you and you'll just have to live in denial.


----------



## Parmandur (Oct 22, 2018)

cbwjm said:


> Zendikar is basically DnD in MtG, though I guess it was different enough to warrant a setting book outside of a planeshift document or maybe it wasn't chosen because it has a planeshift document.



In the intro to the Planeshift: Dominara booklet, Wyatt says that he considers Guildmasters Guide to Ravnica to be the Planeshift document. They chose to work on it because it is the current M:tG,and seemed different enough to warrant a full book.


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## cbwjm (Oct 22, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> Yes. I've seen Ravnica as part of the MtG universe since 2005. True story. It is, in part, why they used it instead of some new setting build from scratch. If you can't wrap you hear around Ravnica being part of the MtG universe, I can't help you and you'll just have to live in denial.



In MtG, Ravnica is part of the MtG multiverse. In DnD, it is part of the DnD multiverse. If you can't wrap your head around that, I cant help you and you'll just have to live in denial.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 22, 2018)

SkidAce said:


> Really?
> 
> They could put out HORRIBLE settings for the next five years, and we (my group and everyone I anecdotally know) would still have fun and play 5th edition.
> 
> I understood (didn't agree) your distaste for Ravnica, but 5e being a waste I do not understand.




There is not much worth spending the money and time on the edition. It doesn't bring much of anything new to the table and doesn't justify its existence aside from not being 4e. The rules are pretty much 3.x, but lighter. If you do not mind meatier rules, why bother with another version of the fighter, or the wizards, or mind flayers, or flaming sword, or a FR setting that isn't much of a setting anymore, or a MtG setting that doesn't contain much MtG? The APs aren't certainly a draw.


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## Azzy (Oct 22, 2018)

cbwjm said:


> Zendikar is basically DnD in MtG, though I guess it was different enough to warrant a setting book outside of a planeshift document or maybe it wasn't chosen because it has a planeshift document.




Yeah, the Planeshift document really sold me on the setting, so I would love to see something like the Wayfarer's Guide to Eberron (which sold me on that setting). So far Ravnica just hasn't interested me. No biggie, my next campaign will likely be in Eberron anyway. I do hope it's a good product for those that do find it interesting--sour grapes just ain't my thing.


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## Parmandur (Oct 22, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> There is not much worth spending the money and time on the edition. It doesn't bring much of anything new to the table and doesn't justify its existence aside from not being 4e. The rules are pretty much 3.x, but lighter. If you do not mind meatier rules, why bother with another version of the fighter, or the wizards, or mind flayers, or flaming sword, or a FR setting that isn't much of a setting anymore, or a MtG setting that doesn't contain much MtG? The APs aren't certainly a draw.



Your mileage may vary, but I'm quite happy with my time and money investment, and goodness knows that I am hardly alone.


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## Azzy (Oct 22, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> There is not much worth spending the money and time on the edition. It doesn't bring much of anything new to the table and doesn't justify its existence aside from not being 4e. The rules are pretty much 3.x, but lighter. If you do not mind meatier rules, why bother with another version of the fighter, or the wizards, or mind flayers, or flaming sword, or a FR setting that isn't much of a setting anymore, or a MtG setting that doesn't contain much MtG? The APs aren't certainly a draw.




You do you, man. 5e is what I wished 3e had been.


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## SkidAce (Oct 22, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> There is not much worth spending the money and time on the edition. It doesn't bring much of anything new to the table and doesn't justify its existence aside from not being 4e. The rules are pretty much 3.x, but lighter. If you do not mind meatier rules, why bother with another version of the fighter, or the wizards, or mind flayers, or flaming sword, or a FR setting that isn't much of a setting anymore, or a MtG setting that doesn't contain much MtG? The APs aren't certainly a draw.




Thank you for replying.


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## Parmandur (Oct 22, 2018)

Azzy said:


> You do you, man. 5e is what I wished 3e had been.



As somebody who started with 3E, I could never go back after 5E.


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## Remathilis (Oct 22, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> Nope. I want what is advertized. MtG in D&D. Not a new generic setting like what is being produced.





​It was never advertised like that. Look at the intro to Planeshift: Zendikar
_
Plane Shift: Zendikar was made using the fifth edition of the D&D rules that you can find here. D&D is a flexible rules system designed to model any kind of fantasy world. The D&D magic system doesn’t involve five colors of mana or a ramping-up to your most powerful spells, but the goal isn’t to mirror the experience of playing Magic in your roleplaying game. The point is to experience the worlds of Magic in a new way, through the lens of the D&D rules. All you really need is races for the characters, monsters for them to face, and some ideas to build a campaign._

THAT is what is promised. That is what has been delivered. 



Kramodlog said:


> Indeed. Ravnica is a bad setting for this. Dominaria would have made more sense for this product to be interesting and in brand.
> 
> For a the first MtG D&D official product? Dominaria. Start with the basic and iconic stuff. Brand identity.




As a MtG player who started in Revised, Dominaria is near-and-dear to my heart. But its a terrible place to start. First off, it hasn't been relevant in over a decade. Before 2018's Dominaria expansion, the last set to be set there was 2007's Time Spiral block. Its most a Realms-like setting of generic fantasy tropes, cataclysms-of-the-week, and uber-NPCs that make everyone else irrelevant. Luckily, the 2018 return turned the setting into a stable, if generic, fantasy setting. Simply put, Dominaria offers little that Forgotten Realms doesn't also offer. 

Ravnica was picked because MtG is going to be there for the next year-and-a-half over three sets. It will include the finale of the Gatewatch story, and (as stated before) has the most sets of any post-Modern plane.  



Kramodlog said:


> Indeed. WotC won't get my money and still stays irrelevant when it comes to RPG innovation. Its been what, a decade now that they haven't produced anything of note? Good thing for them the brand is strong. In fact it is surprising it stays so strong.



​So you're just here yelling at clouds then?


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## dave2008 (Oct 22, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> Yes, there is a misunderstanding. The items, spells, monsters, NPCs present in the book aren't the iconic ones associated with MtG. What is present in this book is uninteresting and not what MtG fans want to see in D&D.



Well there are 2 issues.  1) There are many fans of MtG that are just fine with this product (like my 2 teenage sons).  2) This is not a MTG setting book.  It is Ravinica setting book for D&D.  It seems that you keep missing that point.  It is not trying to bring all of MtG to D&D, it is trying to bring a small part of it Ravinica into the fold as a D&D setting. 



Kramodlog said:


> There are far more monsters, items, spells and NPCs from MtG's lore that should come before Jarad.



Again, this is not MtG book, it is a Ravinica book.  Not to mention, there are many people that don't feel the same as you about the NPCs.  There was a good post earlier that explained that the best parts of the setting are not the planeswalkers.



Kramodlog said:


> Like Nicol Bolas. He is a ancient (25,000 years), evil and very powerful dragon and planewalker. He also wants to conquer Ravnica.




I know Nicky, I even made 5e stats for him.  But, he is MtG NPC, to really crucial to Ravinica. 



Kramodlog said:


> He'll soon invade it and Ravnica will probably have a "Realms Shaking Event" pretty soon. The big bad of the setting isn't present.



  And I for one am glad for that.  We don't need another setting with "Realms Shaking events."  Another good reason to keep Nicky out.



Kramodlog said:


> I'm not surprised, but at the same time it is why designers are paid for and why those books are sold 50$ a pop. So that creative solutions are brought to problems.




But that is not what they were paid to do.  That may be what you want to pay them to do - 



Kramodlog said:


> Bringing MtG to D&D made this book interesting. Unfortunately, MtG isn't in this book. It is just a generic book about guilds. And that novelty act wares out pretty fast.




Sounds like you might be starting to get it - it is not MtG book.  It is a D&D book about the Ravinica setting.  You might have noticed, or not, that there is no mention of MtG on the cover.  I understand your angst now.  You thought you were getting a MtG book, and that is not what they made.  It is not for you, and that is OK.  I don't play MtG for published settings or APs, but I will definitely look through as the ToC has me interested enough that I am think of buying it.


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## Jester David (Oct 22, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> Sounds like you might be starting to get it - it is not MtG book.  It is a D&D book about the Ravinica setting.  You might have noticed, or not, that there is no mention of MtG on the cover.  I understand your angst now.  You thought you were getting a MtG book, and that is not what they made.  It is not for you, and that is OK.  I don't play MtG for published settings or APs, but I will definitely look through as the ToC has me interested enough that I am think of buying it.



Ummm.... Magic the Gathering is repeatedly mentioned in the sample page we have, linked in the first post. 
*And* Magic the Gathering is mentioned on the cover. It’s mentioned before D&D on the back cover.
*And* the name of the product on Amazon is: “Dungeons & Dragons Guildmasters' Guide to Ravnica / D&D/Magic: The Gathering Adventure Book and Campaign Setting”

Arguing it is a Ravnica book and not a MtG book feels like arguing a Dragonlance product isn’t a D&D product. 

It’s not a MtG card game product but it is very much part of the same brand.


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## MidwayHaven (Oct 22, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> But the more I think about the guilds, the more I think of WotC's RPGsport/streaming/competition thing they want to do.




WotC is not hosting the RPGSports duels. It's been mentioned multiple times already.


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## Parmandur (Oct 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Ummm.... Magic the Gathering is repeatedly mentioned in the sample page we have, linked in the first post.
> *And* Magic the Gathering is mentioned on the cover. It’s mentioned before D&D on the back cover.
> *And* the name of the product on Amazon is: “Dungeons & Dragons Guildmasters' Guide to Ravnica / D&D/Magic: The Gathering Adventure Book and Campaign Setting”
> 
> ...



Dragonlance SAGA was not a D&D product.


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## Li Shenron (Oct 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> View attachment 102521​
> 
> *Races: *Centaur, minotaur, simic hybrid, and vadalken races.
> *Subclasses: *Clerics of order, druids of spores.
> ...




Interesting... with perhaps less than half the crunch of even the SCAG, it looks almost a rules-free / edition-agnostic product.


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## flametitan (Oct 22, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> It's the Guilds, yes. Their interlocking, pseudo-Cyberpunk web of relationships is a different setting for D&D.
> 
> Honestly, I don't expect to run or play in Ravnica anytime soon (though I have some thoughts percolating about retooling Dead in Thay from TftYP for Ravnica). But I am interested in the fluff, the player options and the monsters. The procedural generation tools can have definite use as well.




Right, I see. I'll have to take a deeper look when the book comes out, but right now the guilds feel like a bit of a weak hook. The interplay between factions with differing goals and ideals is a crux of _many_ settings to me, so it feels odd to go, "yeah, this setting's interesting thing is that it has factions."

Part of that, though, is because when I look into whether a setting interests me or not, it's the encouraged style of campaign that interests me, rather than a setting element. This book focuses _heavily_ on the factions element, and seems to lack in the interesting locales (unless the Tenth District is more varied than the name implies), and I know nearly nothing of what sort of genre the setting wants to encourage, though I imagine political intrigue is going to be a focal point.


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## Parmandur (Oct 22, 2018)

flametitan said:


> Right, I see. I'll have to take a deeper look when the book comes out, but right now the guilds feel like a bit of a weak hook. The interplay between factions with differing goals and ideals is a crux of _many_ settings to me, so it feels odd to go, "yeah, this setting's interesting thing is that it has factions."
> 
> Part of that, though, is because when I look into whether a setting interests me or not, it's the encouraged style of campaign that interests me, rather than a setting element. This book focuses _heavily_ on the factions element, and seems to lack in the interesting locales (unless the Tenth District is more varied than the name implies), and I know nearly nothing of what sort of genre the setting wants to encourage, though I imagine political intrigue is going to be a focal point.



It's not just that they are ten factions, it is that these ten factions are everything: government, business, religion...all of it. The Ecumenopolis is a unique factor, from r D&D settings. The chapter following the location Gazeeter (the Tenth District is a megacity itself!) is apparently chock full of procedural generation tables, as in Chapter 3 of the DMG, to help with generation of Urban Fantasy adventures based around the Guilds.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Oct 22, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> I'm glad to be the first one to tell you Ravnica is in the MtG universe and that MtG has had a few blocks set on Ravnica since then. Welcome to 2005!




Congratulations on your attempt to use sarcasm to disguise the fact that you have no answer to my challenge.

Ravnica _was_ a MtG setting. Now it is a D&D setting. And the marketing has been perfectly clear about that from the start, that this would be a D&D book, not a MtG book, and it wouldn't be adding planeswalkers or coloured magic to D&D.

You can argue that it's a bad decision, you can state without argument that it's not what you want (I wanted Dark Sun, but we rarely get what we want, welcome to Real Life), but you can't argue that MtG-in-D&D was promised without gross dishonesty.


----------



## flametitan (Oct 22, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> It's not just that they are ten factions, it is that these ten factions are everything: government, business, religion...all of it. The Ecumenopolis is a unique factor, from r D&D settings. The chapter following the location Gazeeter (the Tenth District is a megacity itself!) is apparently chock full of procedural generation tables, as in Chapter 3 of the DMG, to help with generation of Urban Fantasy adventures based around the Guilds.




Yeah, that still doesn't quite make me excited for Ravnica itself, sorry. The factions controlling everything, again, does not make me think, "Oh, that's unique to Ravnica!" Again, the interplay of different factions and how they try to influence and manipulate each other feels like a core part of worldbuilding. The Ecumenpolis is cool, yes, but what does expanding the city out to cover the world _add_ that a regular urban campaign doesn't? Nevermind that the book itself doesn't seem to really care about the fact that it's a world spanning city, though the table of contents makes it hard to judge.

Perhaps it's just not a setting for me, but I'm still not really seeing the appeal for it that I couldn't get out of, say, playing in Sharn.


----------



## dave2008 (Oct 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Ummm.... Magic the Gathering is repeatedly mentioned in the sample page we have, linked in the first post.
> *And* Magic the Gathering is mentioned on the cover. It’s mentioned before D&D on the back cover.
> *And* the name of the product on Amazon is: “Dungeons & Dragons Guildmasters' Guide to Ravnica / D&D/Magic: The Gathering Adventure Book and Campaign Setting”
> 
> ...




My mistake on the marketing end then!  I need to do a bit more research before I post.  I just looked at the front cover and didn't see anything about MtG.  
However, if I were not on these forums and I came across this book in my FLGs I would have no idea it was  MtG setting.  I still think there is some significance in that.


----------



## thebakeriscomingforu (Oct 22, 2018)

Looking at the above Table of Contents I'm not surprised by the lack of Ravnica lore since there will be a Ravnica lore book released in January. Wizards puts out the MTG lore books misnamed as "The art of Magic the Gathering- setting name" whenever it visits a new plane. If people want more lore and more art from the setting then they will have to look here: https://www.amazon.com/Art-Magic-Gathering-Ravnica/dp/1974705528


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## Rossbert (Oct 22, 2018)

Quote doesn't work on my phone, but I get that Paul, and many others don't quite get and it is very hard to be clear that the guilds are not JUST factions, they are also the magic, infrastructure and geography of the world.  In many cases guildmasters are semi-divine embodiments of concepts. To say Selesnyan or Gruul district doesn't just tell you who is in charge, it tells you oftwn what the location is, how it is designed and what its purpose is (if it is Selesnyan, it is probably either one or several giant habitable trees)


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## gyor (Oct 22, 2018)

flametitan said:


> Right, I see. I'll have to take a deeper look when the book comes out, but right now the guilds feel like a bit of a weak hook. The interplay between factions with differing goals and ideals is a crux of _many_ settings to me, so it feels odd to go, "yeah, this setting's interesting thing is that it has factions."
> 
> Part of that, though, is because when I look into whether a setting interests me or not, it's the encouraged style of campaign that interests me, rather than a setting element. This book focuses _heavily_ on the factions element, and seems to lack in the interesting locales (unless the Tenth District is more varied than the name implies), and I know nearly nothing of what sort of genre the setting wants to encourage, though I imagine political intrigue is going to be a focal point.




 Actually it kind of is,  because all the guilds are represented there and have influence there along with it being where the Living Guildpact holds court when he is on the plane at all. 

 There are Ozhov Balisicias,  and banks,  there Azorious courts, a Simic Zonot,  and different types of guild gates and so on.

The Tenth DistrictEditAzorius territoryEditThe Azorius District on the waterfront.[15]Old Prahv, the former guildhall. Now a wilderness preserve.New Prahv, the guildhall.The South Records Hall.[16]The Forum of Azor.The Pillar of the Paruns.CenterfortParha, a run-down industrial quarter given to the Orzhov for demolition and reclamationRokiric PavillionHeadquarters of the Living GuildpactTin StreetTin Street Market. A favorite of Vraska.Zonot Seven. The only zonot (sinkhole) inside the boundaries of the Tenth District, Zonot Seven is home to Zameck, the current guildhall of the Simic Combine.Zobar, one of the Titans of Ravnica. Now destroyed.Empty Cup Row, an abandoned building block used by the Izzet for experiments.The Detention Compound, a place of correction for criminals.The HarborKeyhole Village, a run down quarter where the harbor workers live.[17]Boros territoryEditThe Boros District with many forts and barracks.Sunhome, the guildhallHorizon Military Academy, a training center for Boros recruitsCenterfort, the headquarters of the Wojek League.Deadbridge, a neighborhood controlled by the Golgari. Used as a public disposal for corpses.Gnat Alley, Ravnica's longest continuous street.Dravhoc, a district built into a mountain, constructed in terraces.Favarial, a district built across a large body of fresh water. One of the more wealthier districts.Izzet territoryEditThe Izzet District, full of factories and labs.Nivix, the guildhallMizzium Foundry, the only place on Ravnica that manufactures Mizzium.Ivy StreetLurias, a district far away from the Center of Ravnica near a "coastline", the meeting place of a swamp used for farming and a large river.Mauzam AsylumOvitzia, a district full of mansions of the wealthy.Orzhov territoryEditThe Orzhov District, containing mansions, banks, trading posts and churches. Also known as the Sixth District.Orzhova, the guildhall and seat of the Obzedat.The Grand Library.[16]Irbitov, an Orzhov-controlled quarter populated with mausoleums, memorial statues, and underground vaults.Vizkopa Bank, the center of Orzhov commerce. A massive institution encrusted with guardian gargoyles and orbited by the floating spirits of Orzhovan debtors.Coiner's Row, the business districtThe Harmony Basilica.[16]Kalnika Quarter or Kalnika DistrictThe Dome of Black Dove.[16]The Moon Market, held every fifth full moon and dedicated to forbidden wares.Nightveil, a precinct under Dimir control. Despite numerous attempts from Boros, Azorius and Orzhov, no criminal activities could be proven.Dinrova Heights, a massive building used as a meeting place for the high-ranking guild mages of the Dimir.Bane Alley, a street where "illegal" services like assassination, extortion or graft are offered by Dimir agents.The Plague QuarterSage's Row, a place critical to the guildsShanav Quarter, a place known for its hostility to the SelesnyaSimic territoryEditThe Simic DistrictNovijen, the guildhall. Now destroyed.Ismeri Library, an officially guildless public library under Dimir control. Used as a major communication center of the guild.The Smelting District, center of Ravnica's industry. Home to numerous unguilded.Keyhole Downs, a place known for its dishonest merchants.[17] Rumored to have ties with the Rakdos.


----------



## Kramodlog (Oct 22, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Congratulations on your attempt to use sarcasm to disguise the fact that you have no answer to my challenge.
> 
> Ravnica _was_ a MtG setting. Now it is a D&D setting. And the marketing has been perfectly clear about that from the start, that this would be a D&D book, not a MtG book, and it wouldn't be adding planeswalkers or coloured magic to D&D.
> 
> You can argue that it's a bad decision, you can state without argument that it's not what you want (I wanted Dark Sun, but we rarely get what we want, welcome to Real Life), but you can't argue that MtG-in-D&D was promised without gross dishonesty.



Lets see...

"Ummm.... Magic the Gathering is repeatedly mentioned in the sample page we have, linked in the first post. 
And Magic the Gathering is mentioned on the cover. It’s mentioned before D&D on the back cover.
And the name of the product on Amazon is: “Dungeons & Dragons Guildmasters' Guide to Ravnica / D&D/Magic: The Gathering Adventure Book and Campaign Setting”

Arguing it is a Ravnica book and not a MtG book feels like arguing a Dragonlance product isn’t a D&D product. 

It’s not a MtG card game product but it is very much part of the same brand"


----------



## Kramodlog (Oct 22, 2018)

MidwayHaven said:


> WotC is not hosting the RPGSports duels. It's been mentioned multiple times already.




Doesn't matter. The guilds are there to artificially create tribes for the streaming thing and bring MtG fans to it. It has nothing to do with enriching D&D or the player experience. Guilds create conflicts between players and players who want to get promotions in the guilds derail campaigns.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 22, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Your mileage may vary, but I'm quite happy with my time and money investment, and goodness knows that I am hardly alone.




Meh. 4e was the best edition ever! So was 3e. So was 2e... people keep saying that cause they like shinny new stuff, but it doesn't mean they are right. The same people who say they won't switch to 6e likely will and just repeat the cycle.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 22, 2018)

cbwjm said:


> In MtG, Ravnica is part of the MtG multiverse. In DnD, it is part of the DnD multiverse. If you can't wrap your head around that, I cant help you and you'll just have to live in denial.



"Ummm.... Magic the Gathering is repeatedly mentioned in the sample page we have, linked in the first post. 
And Magic the Gathering is mentioned on the cover. It’s mentioned before D&D on the back cover.
And the name of the product on Amazon is: “Dungeons & Dragons Guildmasters' Guide to Ravnica / D&D/Magic: The Gathering Adventure Book and Campaign Setting”

Arguing it is a Ravnica book and not a MtG book feels like arguing a Dragonlance product isn’t a D&D product. 

It’s not a MtG card game product but it is very much part of the same brand"


----------



## Jester David (Oct 22, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Dragonlance SAGA was not a D&D product.



Arguably not.
But what about the original Dragonlance novels? And if they count, what about the SAGA novels? How about the modules with both SAGA and AD&D Rules?
What about a D&D board game? Those are often less “D&D” than SAGA but have the D&D iconography.

So, is this a MtG branded product? I’d say “yes”. Just like a MtG CCG set that was themed around Faerun would kinda be a D&D product.


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## Jester David (Oct 22, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Congratulations on your attempt to use sarcasm to disguise the fact that you have no answer to my challenge.
> 
> Ravnica _was_ a MtG setting. Now it is a D&D setting. And the marketing has been perfectly clear about that from the start, that this would be a D&D book, not a MtG book, and it wouldn't be adding planeswalkers or coloured magic to D&D.
> 
> You can argue that it's a bad decision, you can state without argument that it's not what you want (I wanted Dark Sun, but we rarely get what we want, welcome to Real Life), but you can't argue that MtG-in-D&D was promised without gross dishonesty.




They're not mutually exclusive. It can be a MtG setting AND a D&D setting. Doing a D&D update doesn't mean it's no longer a MtG plane.

They're not adding in any MtG mechanics or adding an alternate magic system, but it is using the lore, concepts, and flavour of the world. But I can name a half-dozen D&D branded games and products that are "D&D" but do not use the rules of the tabletop game.


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## Parmandur (Oct 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Arguably not.
> But what about the original Dragonlance novels? And if they count, what about the SAGA novels? How about the modules with both SAGA and AD&D Rules?
> What about a D&D board game? Those are often less “D&D” than SAGA but have the D&D iconography.
> 
> So, is this a MtG branded product? I’d say “yes”. Just like a MtG CCG set that was themed around Faerun would kinda be a D&D product.




Logically speaking, to an extent "Dragonlance" and "Ravnica" are separate intellectual property from either D&D or Magic.

The trade dress of this book is that of D&D. Did you listen to or watch the Dragon Talk that was done the day the book was announced? Jeremy Crawford was pretty clear that he wanted this to be in no way a Magic RPG book, but a definite D&D book that happens to be in the Ravnica setting, removing all Magic specific references. At one point, Wyatt had written up a bunch of color mana as alternate alignment system material (which is in Planeshift booklets previously), but Crawford cut it and made it all the in to D&D. They have made every effort in marketing to emphasize this is a D&D book.


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## Remathilis (Oct 22, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> COPYPASTA




So what does MTG in D&D rules look like? From previous Planeshifts…

*On Colored Mana.*

_"...A druid on Zendikar might call on green mana and cast spells like giant growth, but she’s still just a druid in the D&D rules (perhaps casting giant insect)." (PS: Zendikar)

"There’s no rules weight to this material; it’s simply about roleplaying your character. If you’re playing a cleric, you might find it helpful to imagine your character drawing on white mana, and you’ll find that a lot of your spells could indeed be white spells in Magic. You might also find inspiration in the personality traits and ideals described in the white mana entry. But there’s no rule preventing your character from using spells like divination (a blue spell), stone shape (a red spell), create undead (a black spell), or insect plague (a green spell). On the other hand, you might find that thinking about your cleric as a white-aligned caster shapes your choice of spells as well as your personality. someone from green aligned to black aligned (or both green and black aligned). A terrible loss that spurs someone to vengeance might add red to the person’s color alignment—temporarily or even permanently." (PS: Ixalan)_
*
On Monsters*

_"...For the most part, there’s no need to craft new monsters out of whole cloth to reflect the creatures of Zendikar. The D&D Monster Manual is full of creatures that have obvious equivalents on Zendikar. That plane’s loam lion is just a kind of lion, for example. There are also plenty of close equivalents. An ankheg from the Monster Manual is a fine way to represent a caustic crawler, and similar examples abound." (PS: Zendikar)

"The best way to represent Eldrazi in D&D terms is to adapt a variety of monster statistics to reflect the diversity of these creatures. Almost any demon or aberration could represent an Eldrazi, and bizarre fungus monsters, oozes, or monstrosities can work as well." (PS Zendikar)

"Any of the angels in the Monster Manual can serve as Serra angels. The deva represents the most common angels, while the planetar and solar are appropriate for powerful angels such as Lyra and Shalai." (PS: Dominaria)
_
*On Dominaria*

_"There’s not a lot of rules content in this article, largely because Dominaria is as close as Magic comes to the classic fantasy that D&D draws from. Feel free to make extensive use of class options, monsters, and other parts of the fifth edition D&D rules..." (PS Dominaria)_

*On Artifacts*

_"Of course, you’ll find a lot of information about aether-powered devices and invention in this document, in keeping with the spirit of Kaladesh. But it’s more along the lines of rearranging the building blocks and altering the appearance of existing magic items, rather than creating a lot of new things. If you want your character to look like the guy on the Dispersal Technician card, just give him a ring of the ram." (PS Kaladesh)_

*On Planeswalkers*

_"Fundamentally, no game rules are attached to being a Planeswalker. Traveling from plane to plane in this sort of campaign is a lot like overland travel in a normal campaign: it’s about getting to where the adventure is. It’s a story function, not a rules one. If planeswalking is part of the campaign, then everyone in the party has to be able to do it, so they can travel together. (In modern Magic, there’s no way to bring another living person along with you when you planeswalk.) That means there’s not really any question of game balance where planeswalking is concerned—it doesn’t make one character more powerful than another, and it doesn’t make characters any stronger against the enemies they’re fighting. So it’s something that can be added on to any other character, without changing the character’s class, race, or background." (PS Amonket)_

*On Crossing over*

_"So can Planeswalker characters travel from Amonkhet to whatever plane the Forgotten Realms lies on? That’s up to you. The Plane Shift series more or less assumes a certain continuity from one Multiverse to the next, even as (for example) it makes no attempt to model Magic’s five colors of mana in the D&D magic system. So there’s no real reason an elf from Evereska couldn’t “spark out” and find herself on Kaladesh, as long as it works for your players and your campaign." (PS: Amonket)

---_

So THERE are your MTG rules. Mana color is a RPG consideration. Planeswalkers are just an extra ability given to your PCs if they want to wander the multiverse, and 90% of the stuff in MtG can be mimicked with rebranding D&D stuff. 

Ravnica, which is a PS article spun out to book-length and given a proper paper release, will be little different from these ideas.

Sorry you wanted MtG the RPG. You're not getting a planeswalker class with a mana/spell point subsystem and a re-aligning of classes and spells based on the color pie. You're not getting a conversion of Serra Angels, Shivan Dragons, or any other monster that can be reskinned from the MM. You're not getting spell conversions for lightning strike, shock, or any other spell that can be emulated with lightning bolt. 

You weren't lied to, betrayed, or fooled. You set your expectations too high.


----------



## Jester David (Oct 22, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Logically speaking, to an extent "Dragonlance" and "Ravnica" are separate intellectual property from either D&D or Magic.
> 
> The trade dress of this book is that of D&D. Did you listen to or watch the Dragon Talk that was done the day the book was announced? Jeremy Crawford was pretty clear that he wanted this to be in no way a Magic RPG book, but a definite D&D book that happens to be in the Ravnica setting, removing all Magic specific references. At one point, Wyatt had written up a bunch of color mana as alternate alignment system material (which is in Planeshift booklets previously), but Crawford cut it and made it all the in to D&D. They have made every effort in marketing to emphasize this is a D&D book.



Which makes it MECHANICALLY D&D, but still a Magic the Gathering book in terms of flavour and lore. In the same way the art books contain zero MtG cards but are still Nahic books.

Much like the three editions of Star Wars WotC published were mechanically D&D (to the point fears and species could often work in 3.0e and 3.5e) but we’re still Star Wars and not D&D.


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## Parmandur (Oct 22, 2018)

flametitan said:


> Yeah, that still doesn't quite make me excited for Ravnica itself, sorry. The factions controlling everything, again, does not make me think, "Oh, that's unique to Ravnica!" Again, the interplay of different factions and how they try to influence and manipulate each other feels like a core part of worldbuilding. The Ecumenpolis is cool, yes, but what does expanding the city out to cover the world _add_ that a regular urban campaign doesn't? Nevermind that the book itself doesn't seem to really care about the fact that it's a world spanning city, though the table of contents makes it hard to judge.
> 
> Perhaps it's just not a setting for me, but I'm still not really seeing the appeal for it that I couldn't get out of, say, playing in Sharn.




I'd recommend checking out the Lore You Should Know segments with Ari Levitch. He goes into detail about the philosophies and Modus Operandi of the various Guilds.

In Magic terms, the setting came about mechanically from the desire to build dual-color Mana decks, and figuring out how weird combos like Green-Black or Blue-Red could be philosophically reconciled. The Ecumenopolis came from the idea, it seems, that weird combos Land cards such as White-Black or Green-Blue would have to be artificial (Banks or factories rather than swamps or forests). 

This book goes to great lengths to describe these differences in plain language D&D terms, with no reference to Magic game concepts, which I find interesting. In D&D terms, an Ecumenopolis means the players can't "leave the city," because the city is all that is. A complex, more industrial society provides different story opportunities, and the Guilds firm the basis for the DM to procedurally build material.


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## Parmandur (Oct 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Which makes it MECHANICALLY D&D, but still a Magic the Gathering book in terms of flavour and lore. In the same way the art books contain zero MtG cards but are still Nahic books.
> 
> Much like the three editions of Star Wars WotC published were mechanically D&D (to the point fears and species could often work in 3.0e and 3.5e) but we’re still Star Wars and not D&D.




They specifically removed any Magic flavor, other than the setting itself: the book, unlike Star Wars, does bill itself as D&D and use the trade dress. Everything in the book is in D&D terms. Crawford has been extremely specific about this, and the marketing has followed suit.


----------



## Parmandur (Oct 22, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> Yes. I've seen Ravnica as part of the MtG universe since 2005. True story. It is, in part, why they used it instead of some new setting build from scratch. If you can't wrap you hear around Ravnica being part of the MtG universe, I can't help you and you'll just have to live in denial.




Magic Ravnica is part if the M:tG multiverse, but D&D Ravnica is part of the D&D multiverse. Earth-One and Earth-2 style. Again, WotC made this clear from word go: this is a D&D book set in the D&D multiverse even (Crawford said that specifically).


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## dave2008 (Oct 22, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> "Ummm.... Magic the Gathering is repeatedly mentioned in the sample page we have, linked in the first post.
> And Magic the Gathering is mentioned on the cover. It’s mentioned before D&D on the back cover.
> And the name of the product on Amazon is: “Dungeons & Dragons Guildmasters' Guide to Ravnica / D&D/Magic: The Gathering Adventure Book and Campaign Setting”
> 
> ...




Yep, as I mention in my response to [MENTION=37579]Jester David[/MENTION] (who made the same points you did, in fact did you copy his post or am I suffering from deja vue here), I made a mistake here.  I just looked at the front cover and there is nothing about MtG there.  I still think that is significant.


----------



## epithet (Oct 22, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> They specifically removed any Magic flavor, other than the setting itself: the book, unlike Star Wars, does bill itself as D&D and use the trade dress. Everything in the book is in D&D terms. Crawford has been extremely specific about this, and the marketing has followed suit.




It certainly seems to be true that all of the concepts in the book are expressed in D&D terms, without adding any significant new sub-systems of game mechanics to expand D&D with "Magic flavor." However, despite D&D players collectively asking for updates to D&D settings like Planescape and Dark Sun for years now, WotC chose instead to include Ravnica, because it is a Magic property. Yes, it is a D&D book, but it is one seemingly designed to sell D&D to Magic customers, and perhaps the other way around, too.

I wonder, when they announce the Magic cards with Elminster and Drizzit, will you be as certain that those are Magic products and not at all D&D products?


----------



## Kramodlog (Oct 22, 2018)

So THERE are your MTG rules. Mana color is a RPG consideration. Planeswalkers are just an extra ability given to your PCs if they want to wander the multiverse, and 90% of the stuff in MtG can be mimicked with rebranding D&D stuff. 

Ravnica, which is a PS article spun out to book-length and given a proper paper release, will be little different from these ideas.[/quote]Yes I know and it is pretty terrible and lazy. It is a wasted opportunity to enrich D&D with MtG and expend MtG beyond a card game. What is even worse is that the novelty of guilds will ware off fast and MtG will be quickly forgotten as a part of D&D.

What a waste. Such lackof vision.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 22, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Magic Ravnica is part if the M:tG multiverse, but D&D Ravnica is part of the D&D multiverse. Earth-One and Earth-2 style. Again, WotC made this clear from word go: this is a D&D book set in the D&D multiverse even (Crawford said that specifically).




With MtG advertized all over the book and Ravnica being part of the MtG universe. Got it.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 22, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> Yep, as I mention in my response to [MENTION=37579]Jester David[/MENTION] (who made the same points you did, in fact did you copy his post or am I suffering from deja vue here), I made a mistake here.  I just looked at the front cover and there is nothing about MtG there.  I still think that is significant.




So a D&D inspired MtG card block wouldn't involve D&D. Got it.


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## dave2008 (Oct 22, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> So a D&D inspired MtG card block wouldn't involve D&D. Got it.




No, that is not what I was saying (I don't know for sure as I don't know the relevance of a "card block").  I'm saying if I walk in from the street as a D&D fan, but not a MtG fan, and see the book I wouldn't know or think it was MtG related.  Now, if I looked a bit harder I obviously would.  But a books cover is significant.  And I think what they (WotC) are saying is that this is a D&D book first and influenced by MtG 2nd.


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## Remathilis (Oct 22, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> So a D&D inspired MtG card block wouldn't involve D&D. Got it.



Would you require an D&D-inspired MtG set to have to make an attacker roll a d20 to see if he hit and do random damage? What about a saving throw to avoid a card's effects or take 1/2 damage?

If not, what a waste. Such a lack of vision.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 22, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> Would you require an D&D-inspired MtG set to have to make an attacker roll a d20 to see if he hit and do random damage? What about a saving throw to avoid a card's effects or take 1/2 damage?
> 
> If not, what a waste. Such a lack of vision.



I would expect Magic Missiles and Vorpal sword cards, like I expect iconic spells, items and monsters in a products that brings MtG to D&D. But that seems hard to grasp and strawmen are used instead. What a shame.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 22, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> No, that is not what I was saying (I don't know for sure as I don't know the relevance of a "card block").  I'm saying if I walk in from the street as a D&D fan, but not a MtG fan, and see the book I wouldn't know or think it was MtG related.  Now, if I looked a bit harder I obviously would.  But a books cover is significant.  And I think what they (WotC) are saying is that this is a D&D book first and influenced by MtG 2nd.




On the back it says MtG meets D&D and the "MtG world of Ravnica to use in D&D". 

I would expect more MtG in my soup the it is presented. I'd also expect more of the world and less of the guilds.


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## Satyrn (Oct 22, 2018)

Azzy said:


> Yeah, the Planeshift document really sold me on the setting, so I would love to see something like the Wayfarer's Guide to Eberron (which sold me on that setting). So far Ravnica just hasn't interested me. No biggie, my next campaign will likely be in Eberron anyway. I do hope it's a good product for those that do find it interesting--sour grapes just ain't my thing.




You're saying you like Zendikar and Eberron after having read their products, so I'm not grokking why you're talking as though your opinion on Ravnica is fully set based only on the rumors and snippets you've seen.


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## Parmandur (Oct 22, 2018)

epithet said:


> It certainly seems to be true that all of the concepts in the book are expressed in D&D terms, without adding any significant new sub-systems of game mechanics to expand D&D with "Magic flavor." However, despite D&D players collectively asking for updates to D&D settings like Planescape and Dark Sun for years now, WotC chose instead to include Ravnica, because it is a Magic property. Yes, it is a D&D book, but it is one seemingly designed to sell D&D to Magic customers, and perhaps the other way around, too.
> 
> I wonder, when they announce the Magic cards with Elminster and Drizzit, will you be as certain that those are Magic products and not at all D&D products?




Well, sure: since they will have added in Magic conceps such as colored Mana, it will by necessity be Magic and not D&D. I honestly do expect we will see a D&D world used for a Magic set, if this book is popular.


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## dave2008 (Oct 22, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> On the back it says MtG meets D&D and the "MtG world of Ravnica to use in D&D".
> 
> I would expect more MtG in my soup the it is presented. I'd also expect more of the world and less of the guilds.




And that is reasonable as a MtG fan.  In book sales the Front Cover is the most important, not sure this holds true for RPGs, and I think they chose not to emphasize the MtG connection on the front cover for  reason.  I would guess the primary target is not MtG fans.


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## Satyrn (Oct 22, 2018)

I've been calling my skag-filled megadungeon campaign a Borderlands game. 

Have I been lying this whole time?


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## Jester David (Oct 22, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> They specifically removed any Magic flavor, other than the setting itself: the book, unlike Star Wars, does bill itself as D&D and use the trade dress. Everything in the book is in D&D terms. Crawford has been extremely specific about this, and the marketing has followed suit.



I would argue that Ravnica flavour IS Magic the Gathering flavour. Like Forgotten Realms flavour IS Dungeons & Dragons. 
So a game like, oh, _Baldur’s Gate: Dark Alliance_ or _Idle Champions of the Forgotten Realms_ that make use of zero TTRPG mechanics are still somewhat D&D. 

I don’t think all that makes D&D into a D&D product is having the logo. Otherwise the 2010 seventh edition of Gamma World would also be D&D as it had that logo on the box.


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## Parmandur (Oct 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> I would argue that Ravnica flavour IS Magic the Gathering flavour. Like Forgotten Realms flavour IS Dungeons & Dragons.
> So a game like, oh, _Baldur’s Gate: Dark Alliance_ or _Idle Champions of the Forgotten Realms_ that make use of zero TTRPG mechanics are still somewhat D&D.
> 
> I don’t think all that makes D&D into a D&D product is having the logo. Otherwise the 2010 seventh edition of Gamma World would also be D&D as it had that logo on the box.




It is more than the trade dress, but for marketing purposes the trade dress is extremely important. In other terms, D&D would include things like the 9-point alignment system, or 9 levels of spells, or the Class sysyte, all things that will be in this D&D book.


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## Jester David (Oct 22, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> It is more than the trade dress, but for marketing purposes the trade dress is extremely important. In other terms, D&D would include things like the 9-point alignment system, or 9 levels of spells, or the Class sysyte, all things that will be in this D&D book.



So in other words, with no interior content changes, this is a D&D book and is NOT a Magic book:
View attachment 102638

But this would be a MtG book and NOT a Dungeons & Dragons book:
View attachment 102639

Because, while 9-point alignment, 9 levels of spells, and a class system are important, this is a D&D book but has none of that: 
View attachment 102640
(Ignoring that 4e had neither 9 levels of spells or alignment...)


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## cbwjm (Oct 22, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> "Ummm.... Magic the Gathering is repeatedly mentioned in the sample page we have, linked in the first post.
> And Magic the Gathering is mentioned on the cover. It’s mentioned before D&D on the back cover.
> And the name of the product on Amazon is: “Dungeons & Dragons Guildmasters' Guide to Ravnica / D&D/Magic: The Gathering Adventure Book and Campaign Setting”
> 
> ...



It's not surprising MtG is mentioned since this is the origin of Ravnica, but this book is still not part of the MtG meta setting, it's been adapted for use for DnD and the DnD meta setting so yes, this is not a MtG product, it's a DnD product.


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## cbwjm (Oct 22, 2018)

epithet said:


> It certainly seems to be true that all of the concepts in the book are expressed in D&D terms, without adding any significant new sub-systems of game mechanics to expand D&D with "Magic flavor." However, despite D&D players collectively asking for updates to D&D settings like Planescape and Dark Sun for years now, WotC chose instead to include Ravnica, because it is a Magic property. Yes, it is a D&D book, but it is one seemingly designed to sell D&D to Magic customers, and perhaps the other way around, too.
> 
> I wonder, when they announce the Magic cards with Elminster and Drizzit, will you be as certain that those are Magic products and not at all D&D products?



Of course they will be MtG products, they'll be translated into the MtG colours and made into cards for a MtG block. You'd have to be deluded to think it was a DnD product.


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## flametitan (Oct 22, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> I'd recommend checking out the Lore You Should Know segments with Ari Levitch. He goes into detail about the philosophies and Modus Operandi of the various Guilds.




I'll have to take a look at that, sure. That said, mt problem is that not I'm feeling the guilds being a central focus, rather than "Are the guilds interesting?" Like I keep saying: good, interesting factions with lots of interplay should be a requirement of _every_ setting, not a selling point of one setting in particular.



> In Magic terms, the setting came about mechanically from the desire to build dual-color Mana decks, and figuring out how weird combos like Green-Black or Blue-Red could be philosophically reconciled. The Ecumenopolis came from the idea, it seems, that weird combos Land cards such as White-Black or Green-Blue would have to be artificial (Banks or factories rather than swamps or forests).




I have little to no interest in Magic the Gathering, so that means nothing to me. I'm asking why, as a D&D player, should I be interested in Ravnica, not why Magic players like Ravnica.



> This book goes to great lengths to describe these differences in plain language D&D terms, with no reference to Magic game concepts, which I find interesting. In D&D terms, an Ecumenopolis means the players can't "leave the city," because the city is all that is. A complex, more industrial society provides different story opportunities, and the Guilds firm the basis for the DM to procedurally build material.




That actually doesn't mean as much as you'd think. All a good Urban game needs is enough locations of interest to have little to no reason to leave. Once you establish that, then the size of the city itself doesn't matter. It could be as small as Waterdeep, the size of New York, or even worldwide like Ravnica, and that has little bearing on an urban setting game. In fact, I'd say having a worldwide city almost runs against one of the things I like about Urban campaigns, as to me one of the main conceits of the genre is that all of the points of interest are so close to each other in a confined area.

Not only that, but looking at the book, it seems to ignore that conceit in favour of talking about the guilds anyway. Why should I care about the world spanning city if the book itself doesn't seem to care about it?

And as far as procedurally generating adventures: That's nice, but it really only matters if you _care_ about the setting in the first place. I like the procedurally generated Sharn Adventures in Wayfinder's guide because I like Eberron.  If I didn't care about Eberron, the existence of it wouldn't change my mind and make me think Eberron is cool.



gyor said:


> Actually it kind of is,  because all the guilds are represented there and have influence there along with it being where the Living Guildpact holds court when he is on the plane at all.
> 
> There are Ozhov Balisicias,  and banks,  there Azorious courts, a Simic Zonot,  and different types of guild gates and so on.




OK, first: At the time of writing this, I can't actually read that ball of fragmentary sentences sloppily mixed in with wiki citations and edit buttons. After trying to decipher that text, it becomes a list of names. Names I don't know, hold attachment to, and don't excite me. It's nice that you care about them, but why should I? Why should I _want_ to care about them?


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## Parmandur (Oct 22, 2018)

flametitan said:


> I'll have to take a look at that, sure. That said, mt problem is that not I'm feeling the guilds being a central focus, rather than "Are the guilds interesting?" Like I keep saying: good, interesting factions with lots of interplay should be a requirement of _every_ setting, not a selling point of one setting in particular.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The Guilds themselves, as narrative entities, are what holds interest in the setting: all locations on the planet are related to and mainly controlled by them. Check out the Lore videos, I think it is the identities of the Guilds that you are not looking at here. The Magic rules elements are interesting in that they allowed for the creation of very different than normal archetypes, sure h as the ghost-controlled Bank-Church of the Orzhav Syndacite, or the Gulgari.


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## Parmandur (Oct 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> So in other words, with no interior content changes, this is a D&D book and is NOT a Magic book:
> View attachment 102638
> 
> But this would be a MtG book and NOT a Dungeons & Dragons book:
> ...




Certainly if the book we're being marketed as a Magic product when it isn't, it would make sense to complain that it is not a Magic: the Gathering RPG: the complaint is that this D&D product being marketed as a D&D book is not a Magic product, which is odd since they have been explicitly and repeatedly clear in presenting it as a D&D book.


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## MonsterEnvy (Oct 22, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> On the back it says MtG meets D&D and the "MtG world of Ravnica to use in D&D".
> 
> I would expect more MtG in my soup the it is presented. I'd also expect more of the world and less of the guilds.



Then you clearly don't know much about Ravnica. The Guilds are the world.


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## Jester David (Oct 22, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Certainly if the book we're being marketed as a Magic product when it isn't, it would make sense to complain that it is not a Magic: the Gathering RPG: the complaint is that this D&D product being marketed as a D&D book is not a Magic product, which is odd since they have been explicitly and repeatedly clear in presenting it as a D&D book.



True. But the sole benefitt of this product versus say "_Planewalker's Guide to Sigil_" is that it might attract Magic the Gathering fans to the product, potentially increasing sales and maybe getting them into D&D. 
What's the point of doing this rather than a brand new setting?



MonsterEnvy said:


> Then you clearly don't know much about Ravnica. The Guilds are the world.




Given this is not a MtG forum, I wouldn't expect people to know much about Ravnica. 
I'm also not going to fault people for expecting a book titled "Guide to Ravnica" to fire and foremost be about Ravnica!


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## MonsterEnvy (Oct 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> True. But the sole benefitt of this product versus say "_Planewalker's Guide to Sigil_" is that it might attract Magic the Gathering fans to the product, potentially increasing sales and maybe getting them into D&D.
> What's the point of doing this rather than a brand new setting?
> 
> 
> ...




It is about Ravnica. Knowing about the guilds ensures you know everything you need to about Ravnica.


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## Jester David (Oct 22, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> It is about Ravnica. Knowing about the guilds ensures you know everything you need to about Ravnica.




So knowing about the Guilds gives me location adventures? 
That will tell me how and where the adventuring party meets and what quests they might be given? What people wear and how they act? The history of the setting? What the common trade goods are and where they come from?

That feels a little reductive. Like saying that knowing about the gods and faiths of the Forgotten Realms tells you everything you need to know about Faerun.

After all, the iconic "adventure" is the party guarding a caravan going from place A to B. Knowing the Guilds likely tells me who would be owning and operating the trade caravan. But it wouldn't tell me what was in the caravan, where it was going, and likely not who would try and and hijack it.


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## Parmandur (Oct 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> True. But the sole benefitt of this product versus say "_Planewalker's Guide to Sigil_" is that it might attract Magic the Gathering fans to the product, potentially increasing sales and maybe getting them into D&D.
> What's the point of doing this rather than a brand new setting?
> 
> 
> ...




Well, sure, they are doing this instead if something else for financial reasons, though they are in a position to do so primarily due to James Wyatt's tenacious passion for the project, dedicating his spare time to making the proof of concept Plane Shift articles.

It might not be reasonable to expect everyone on a DD board to know Magic stuff, but I didn't know anything about Ravnica a few months ago: my knowledge is from Dragon Talk and other WotC D&D sources. Not terribly unrealistic that people on this forum would listen to Dragon Talk or read Dragon+.


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## Parmandur (Oct 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> So knowing about the Guilds gives me location adventures?
> That will tell me how and where the adventuring party meets and what quests they might be given? What people wear and how they act? The history of the setting? What the common trade goods are and where they come from?
> 
> That feels a little reductive. Like saying that knowing about the gods and faiths of the Forgotten Realms tells you everything you need to know about Faerun.
> ...




Actually, yes. That is why they have organized the adventure procedural generation material around the Guilds. The Guilds determine fashion of their members, they control all significant legal and illegal business. They are all-encompassing.


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## Rossbert (Oct 22, 2018)

It kinda does tell you all that. 95% of all commerce is guild related. Threats are usually other guilds or wildlife (which are cared for, created and propogated by a specific guild). Clothing is a little less tight, outside of uniforms though but much of that can be used to determine guild affiliation, the abscence of a uniform or a guild pin is the sign that someone is a peasant who doesn't matter (legally or magically).

Hell which guild area you are in tells you the architecture and geography of the area.


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## MonsterEnvy (Oct 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> So knowing about the Guilds gives me location adventures?
> That will tell me how and where the adventuring party meets and what quests they might be given? What people wear and how they act? The history of the setting? What the common trade goods are and where they come from?
> 
> That feels a little reductive. Like saying that knowing about the gods and faiths of the Forgotten Realms tells you everything you need to know about Faerun.
> ...




In Ravnica, yes it would.


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## Jester David (Oct 22, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> In Ravnica, yes it would.




Then what would the answers be?


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## Parmandur (Oct 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Then what would the answers be?




It would depend on the initial answers: whuch other Guilds are the enemies of the Guild or Guilds running the caravan, etc. This is why they are using tables to organize the information. Point is, the answers to all of your questions would be Guild information. Because the Guilds are the setting.


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## Rossbert (Oct 22, 2018)

Depends on which product, food is usually a Golgari shipment up canyon walls to the city proper using zombie guards. Izzet is transporting infrastructure pieces or magitech, probably using elemental labor.  Orzhov and Azorious is likely VIPS in luxury accommadations.  Raids are most likely Rakdos arsonists (possibly including priest demon support) or Gruul raiders with beasts (or possibly just the beasts). 

The richest transports are zepplin-like animals, much safer but much more devestating if Gruul wyvern riders take exception and cause a crash.


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## Jester David (Oct 22, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> It would depend on the initial answers: whuch other Guilds are the enemies of the Guild or Guilds running the caravan, etc. This is why they are using tables to organize the information. Point is, the answers to all of your questions would be Guild information. Because the Guilds are the setting.



Which is why I was asking [MENTION=6706188]MonsterEnvy[/MENTION]. He knows the Guilds so the answers should be apparent.

He knows whatever the merchant Guild is, so he should know what the caravan would be holding, where it is going, and who is trying to steal it.
To say nothing of what the city looks like and how to describe the journey...


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## MonsterEnvy (Oct 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Which is why I was asking @_*MonsterEnvy*_. He knows the Guilds so the answers should be apparent.
> 
> He knows whatever the merchant Guild is, so he should know what the caravan would be holding, where it is going, and who is trying to steal it.
> To say nothing of what the city looks like and how to describe the journey...




There is more then one Merchant guild.(Well to be correct none of them are merchant guilds) Were it would be going and who would try to steal it all depends on the guild. @_*Rossbert*_ gives a good answer.

On what the city looks like and how to describe it, it depends on which guild is in charge of the area. And we are going to get coverage over the most notable area in Ravnica the 10th District.


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## Rossbert (Oct 22, 2018)

I see a bit of the misunderstanding.  Each guild controls much more than a typical guild in other settings. I plan on posting a bigger thing when I get to an actual computer to give the rough outline of each guilds initial purpose, and their general side effects.

They are less trade guilds and more stewards of essential aspects of life and order.  For a quick example one guild was built to embody the letter of the magical contract that protected the plane, another is to be  the spirit of that law.


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## Parmandur (Oct 22, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Which is why I was asking [MENTION=6706188]MonsterEnvy[/MENTION]. He knows the Guilds so the answers should be apparent.
> 
> He knows whatever the merchant Guild is, so he should know what the caravan would be holding, where it is going, and who is trying to steal it.
> To say nothing of what the city looks like and how to describe the journey...




As pointed out, there is no "Merchant Guild," anymore than there is a "truck caravan" Megacorp in a Cyberpunk game.


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## Jester David (Oct 23, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> There is more then one Merchant guild.(Well to be correct none of them are merchant guilds) Were it would be going and who would try to steal it all depends on the guild. @_*Rossbert*_ gives a good answer.
> 
> On what the city looks like and how to describe it, it depends on which guild is in charge of the area. And we are going to get coverage over the most notable area in Ravnica the 10th District.



Again, we’re getting 20 pages on the 10th District. Less tha Waterdeep receives in _Dragon Heist_ or Sharn gets in the _Wayfarer’s Guide_. 
That’s an anemic amount of pages to describe a setting.

If I have to spend all my time inventing locations and settings details, I might as well use a homebrew world....


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## cbwjm (Oct 23, 2018)

How much do you really need? It's a giant city covering an entire world, do you really need detailed locations for everywhere you might go? If you playing FR do you only play in city's that have a detailed layout or do you create locations as needed. I mean if you need a tavern in Waterdeep, you could go with the Yawning portal, or you could just create your own in a different location. I won't know for sure until I get the book, but I'm sure there will be more than enough to run a Ravnica game in there.

Personally, I recently finished the game Enslaved: Odyssey to the west. I'm planning on using imagery from that game for abandoned city locations as "Untamed wilds" of the city.


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## Parmandur (Oct 23, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Again, we’re getting 20 pages on the 10th District. Less tha Waterdeep receives in _Dragon Heist_ or Sharn gets in the _Wayfarer’s Guide_.
> That’s an anemic amount of pages to describe a setting.
> 
> If I have to spend all my time inventing locations and settings details, I might as well use a homebrew world....




So, enough description to be sufficient to play in the locao. But, location doesn't matter in this setting: the Guilds matter, neighborhoods and locations within a neighborhood can be procedurally generated with the Tenth District as an archetype, which is why they spend so much time on the Guilds: that's where the story is.


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## SkidAce (Oct 23, 2018)

Jester David said:


> But it wouldn't tell me what was in the caravan, where it was going, and likely not who would try and and hijack it.




I don't need it to tell me those things.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 23, 2018)

cbwjm said:


> It's not surprising MtG is mentioned since this is the origin of Ravnica, but this book is still not part of the MtG meta setting, it's been adapted for use for DnD and the DnD meta setting so yes, this is not a MtG product, it's a DnD product.



Yes, I know. It is a D&D product that adapts MtG material as it is advertized. Yet the MtG content is lacking. It just containt guilds that will be forgotten soon. This book is a missed opportunity to enrich D&D and player experience with MtG iconic spells, magical items, monsters, NPCs and location. Just like how D&D IP turned into MtG cards would enrich MtG.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 23, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> Then you clearly don't know much about Ravnica. The Guilds are the world.




Designers aren't limited to MtG formats when making books. They could have used Ravnica as a setting and added a tonne of iconic MtG spells, magical items, monsters, NPCs to make this book worthwhile. That is what makes a MtG D&D cross-over interesting. Not guilds. 

I do not recall anyone demanding more guilds in D&D or even Ravnican guilds in D&D. I do recall demands for a campaign setting, but you only have 24 pages of that in this book. Even on that level the book is a wasted opportunity to expend the D&D multiverse. Guilds are what people demanded. This reminds me so much of 4e's designer telling us what we really wanted in D&D.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 23, 2018)

SkidAce said:


> I don't need it to tell me those things.




You'll just escort of caravan if someone proposes to you? You're probably the easiest player to DM I've seen.


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## SkidAce (Oct 23, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> You'll just escort of caravan if someone proposes to you? You're probably the easiest player to DM I've seen.




You misunderstand.

If I am DMing, I will figure those things out.

If I am playing, the DM will figure those things out.


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## Jester David (Oct 23, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> So, enough description to be sufficient to play in the locao. But, location doesn't matter in this setting: the Guilds matter, neighborhoods and locations within a neighborhood can be procedurally generated with the Tenth District as an archetype, which is why they spend so much time on the Guilds: that's where the story is.



I disagree. 
Because you could procedurally generate Guilds as well. Heck, you can procedurally generate an entire setting. I have a 2nd Edition book dedicated to just that.

But that’s not what I want from a campaign setting. I want established lore that makes me want to use cool evocative locations. Iconic signature locations with ties to the history of the setting. 
I want to read about an ancient cathedral with a mysterious pillar in the heart. A statue dedicated to an individual that appears in no history books. A famous inn built into the tower of a famous wizard. Stuff that gives me ideas for stories. 

Random tables? Yaaaawwn.



SkidAce said:


> I don't need it to tell me those things.



I do. 
I value that sort of thing, and being able to populate a caravan with interesting items rather than just muttering “ummm it’s full of boxes of generic trade goods.” Knowing what a region produces and where it would sell well.


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## SkidAce (Oct 23, 2018)

Jester David said:


> I do.
> I value that sort of thing, and being able to populate a caravan with interesting items rather than just muttering “ummm it’s full of boxes of generic trade goods.” Knowing what a region produces and where it would sell well.




I can appreciate that, as do I.

I was merely speaking to the idea  that "WotC" doesn't have to provide for that level of detail for it to exist.

No worries, I see your point.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 23, 2018)

cbwjm said:


> How much do you really need? It's a giant city covering an entire world, do you really need detailed locations for everywhere you might go?



Everywhere is an hyberbole, but yeah, I need details. The reason the FR became so popular was that the Old Grey Box was a very lenghty and detailed sandbox. It was different from say DragonLance that was just too tied up with the novels. The OGB sparked imagination, some of the work was already for you and, more importantly, it gave you the desire to explore the setting. 

Ravnica doesn't give a sandbox or a constrained setting. It just throws a few locations on the table and then says "Guilds!" over and over again. 

Guilds are going to ware out fast, as people will find them restrictive and they generate conlict between players. The guilds elements will be left to the NPCs and eventually just abandonned cause it they will get repetitive. What will be left from this "settings" when the novelty of guilds will have worn out? Not even MtG iconic cards in D&D format.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 23, 2018)

SkidAce said:


> You misunderstand.
> 
> If I am DMing, I will figure those things out.
> 
> If I am playing, the DM will figure those things out.




You have a better imagination than me. Valuable settings give me suggestions and help spark my imagination to figure those things out. Sometimes it is a copy/pasta, sometimes it doesn't even resemble the original idea.


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## Parmandur (Oct 23, 2018)

Jester David said:


> I disagree.
> Because you could procedurally generate Guilds as well. Heck, you can procedurally generate an entire setting. I have a 2nd Edition book dedicated to just that.
> 
> But that’s not what I want from a campaign setting. I want established lore that makes me want to use cool evocative locations. Iconic signature locations with ties to the history of the setting.
> ...




Any reason to think that might not be in here...? The book details the entire geography of the setting as exists in the fiction, which is about 20 pages worth. Beyond that, the unique nature of the Guilds is the actual point. It might not be what you are looking for, but it is what it is. The institutions are the setting, not places.


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## gyor (Oct 23, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> Everywhere is an hyberbole, but yeah, I need details. The reason the FR became so popular was that the Old Grey Box was a very lenghty and detailed sandbox. It was different from say DragonLance that was just too tied up with the novels. The OGB sparked imagination, some of the work was already for you and, more importantly, it gave you the desire to explore the setting.
> 
> Ravnica doesn't give a sandbox or a constrained setting. It just throws a few locations on the table and then says "Guilds!" over and over again.
> 
> Guilds are going to ware out fast, as people will find them restrictive and they generate conlict between players. The guilds elements will be left to the NPCs and eventually just abandonned cause it they will get repetitive. What will be left from this "settings" when the novelty of guilds will have worn out? Not even MtG iconic cards in D&D format.




 There are plenty of unique locations in Ravnica. Guild HQ,  various districts holy places of the various guilds,  military academies,  places where magic is taught. The 10th district is getting a detailed map. Tons of locations are in the 10th district, Zonuts,  libraries,  guildhalls,  run down areas, Guildgates,  Wojek Centre Forte,  and more,  and I think the Guildhalls get maps too. Plus rubble belts will likely get a call out in the Gruul section. Old Ravnica is discussed. They might mention the shocklands,  I don't know. 

 Seriously look at the wiki and Ravnica cards for locations that might appear in the book. Plus we might get new ones too. There are six wards basically mentioned + Old Ravnica.


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## gyor (Oct 23, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Any reason to think that might not be in here...? The book details the entire geography of the setting as exists in the fiction, which is about 20 pages worth. Beyond that, the unique nature of the Guilds is the actual point. It might not be what you are looking for, but it is what it is. The institutions are the setting, not places.




 It's both and they are tied to each other.


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## gyor (Oct 23, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> Yes, I know. It is a D&D product that adapts MtG material as it is advertized. Yet the MtG content is lacking. It just containt guilds that will be forgotten soon. This book is a missed opportunity to enrich D&D and player experience with MtG iconic spells, magical items, monsters, NPCs and location. Just like how D&D IP turned into MtG cards would enrich MtG.




 It has all of those things (except Planeswalkers), it'd be nice if it had more,  so I agree with you there. But distinct MtG monsters will be in like Thrulls,  Felidar, Archons,  MtG style Angels,  Demons,  Wurms,  Elementals,  Weirds,  and so on will be in the book. Truth be told a lot of D&D creatures and Spells can already be found in MtG and the other way around. We also get some magic items. A couple of spells (and possiblably altered and refluffed spells). 

 What creatures,  spells,  items,  in particular would you have liked to see in Ravnica?


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## Parmandur (Oct 23, 2018)

gyor said:


> It's both and they are tied to each other.




While true, the Guilds are more important than geography: there are no nation's, cities or institutions outside of the Guildpact.


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## Rossbert (Oct 23, 2018)

I want to preface this lore dump by saying it is based on what I remember of the first set of books and some of the R&D design background.  It has been many years and I am too tired to dig out the books to reference.  Plus time has progressed since then.

In the beginning the forces of order and chaos warred across the plane.  When it became apparent there would be nothing left one person convinced the most powerful leaders on both sides to agree to a magical contract that will ensure safety to the plane while still leaving room for their own beliefs.  This was called the Guildpact and anchored the magic and structure of the society and plane at large, while cutting it off from the rest of the multiverse in the name of protection (as a side effect ghosts linger here more often than almost anywhere else).

Each leader became the head of Guild in charge of vital duties as stated in the Guildpact.

The Azorius Senate became the embodiment of the letter of the Guildpact, they interpret and judge the law of the realm.  They are the legislators and judges, the record keepers and to a lesser extent investigators.  The create the laws of the world and sit in judgement over the law and the Pact.  

The Boros Legion was tasked to protect the plane, led by the angels they became the military and police force, bringing breakers of the laws before the Azorius judges and protecting the people from major threats.  They are rigid and regimented and not above the use of force if that is what it takes to preserve the peace.

The Golgari Swarm was tasked to feed the people.  The dark elves and monstrous races (referred to as Teratogens) took to the lower levels of the city, masters of necromancy they use zombies (mostly sentient) to harvest huge fields of fungi and rot-grown food to feed the needy.  Their understreets are dark, dank and dangerous because there they may hunt freely.

The Gruul Clans are the guardians of nature, tasked to ensure progress and civilization doesn't overtake all the wild places of the world.  They gather in the abandoned areas, the reclamation districts and the dangerous edges of civilized space, working with and respecting the beasts that lurk where people no longer tread.  As civilization took over more and more of the plane the tribes splintered and many of them now just work to destroy the trappings of civilization where they can.

The House Dimir is not to be mentioned, by dictate of the Guildpact.  This group of spies, saboteurs and assassins pick at the Guildpact from the edges, built from the principal that something untested will weaken.  They are dictated to break the Guildpact so the remaining forces must be vigilant to its maintenance and keep it strong.

The Izzet League is tasked to create and maintain the infrastructure of the city. They invent new technologies and magic, creating ducts and plumbing for water, heat and magic as well as designing roads and buildings.  They are also masters of demolition and responsible for most major magical research mishaps (the slogan of their observation corps is "Die Trying").  Their labs are always busy, and often exploding.  It is rumored they sometimes weave spells into the very layout of the city.

The Orzhov Syndicate is to protect the people from the law.  The "Guild of Deals" provides the lawyers to the Azorius judges and hold sway over all forms of contracts and offer protection and insurance to the business interests throughout the plane.  Their members strive to be worthy to join the ghost council that rules the guild upon their death.  They live lush and opulent lives with many servants to do their bidding.

The Cult of Rakdos forms the backbone of manual labor and provides an outlet for the stresses of life.  A group of hedonists who work hard and play hard they provide hard physical service from labor to murder and have wild carnivals that can cater to any taste, no matter how depraved.  If you're in a neighborhood that seems dark, hot and weirdly full of spikes and barbs, you might be in Rakdos territory.

If the Azorious are the letter of the law the Selesnya Conclave is its spirit.  They embrace the unity of all beings being connected and seek to fulfill the spiritual needs of the world.  Their progenitor lives encased in the great Life Tree in the center of the capitol connecting all beings who care to work for the benefit of all.

The Simic Combine are meant to care for the bodies of the people.  Masters of Biomancy they invent great cures to plagues and injury as well as creating new creatures to aid in life and improve the bodies of those who wish it, though their mistakes (and sometimes their intentions) create many of the worst beasts and diseases that plague the world.

The world itself has been built up then built over.  Layers and layers of history are built, toppled, demolished and built again.  The entire plane is a continual construction project as locations wear out and change ownership.  Frequently large districts are abandoned due to one disaster or another, often dangerous virulent plagues that leave the are uninhabited and quarantined for centuries to ensure such diseases die out, which creates opportunity for whoever holds the contract to resettle it.

Built into the Guildpact is a cycle of constant interdependence and struggles for advantage between the Guilds with balance constantly shifting, causing constant intrigue and low-level strife but preventing too much devastation, except for the occasional riot when the demon Rakdos gets too restless and leaves his home and base of operations in the lava pit Rix Maadi. 


I hope that gives people a rough start, it isn't as comprehensive as I intended (I am tired and becoming increasingly incoherent, you should see all the edits I made while writing what little this is), I might do another dump based on questions later this week, most likely on my day off.

I will say I tend to love to play with the Lore of any system I am playing with and of the 4 or 5 Magic settings I know anything about Ravnica was my favorite.  Which is part of why I am interested in seeing how they take the ideas and lore of the setting and translate it to a system where they are freed from the requirements of the original game's mechanical systems (and of course have new ones to work within).

Feel free to ask more questions or bring up things that you would like more detail on, I will be happy to try to help, as long as we all go in knowing I do not work for or represent WotC and like everyone else have no idea what translated into the actual book, just enjoy fantasy worlds.


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## flametitan (Oct 23, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> The Guilds themselves, as narrative entities, are what holds interest in the setting: all locations on the planet are related to and mainly controlled by them. Check out the Lore videos, I think it is the identities of the Guilds that you are not looking at here. The Magic rules elements are interesting in that they allowed for the creation of very different than normal archetypes, sure h as the ghost-controlled Bank-Church of the Orzhav Syndacite, or the Gulgari.




Ok, so I did some more reading, and I can't say the guilds hold my interest. They're the major players, the major selling point of Ravnica... and they feel generic. Like, they don't really feel like they play with the tropes they were assigned, and instead just are what they say on the tin. Sure, they double as performing civic duties to the city, but that's about it. The only one that got me to raise my eyebrow was the idea of a Holy Order as serving as the central bank, but then I realized that's actually pretty common in real world conspiracy theories.

I guess that really settles it. If the guilds don't excite me, the book appears to shy away from detailing the ramifications of being set in an ecumopolis (nevermind that I feel ecumopolis settings actually dilute the appeal of an Urban location), and the book doesn't really seem to have any thematic elements that sing out to me...

The setting is just not for me. Pity.


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## Parmandur (Oct 23, 2018)

flametitan said:


> Ok, so I did some more reading, and I can't say the guilds hold my interest. They're the major players, the major selling point of Ravnica... and they feel generic. Like, they don't really feel like they play with the tropes they were assigned, and instead just are what they say on the tin. Sure, they double as performing civic duties to the city, but that's about it. The only one that got me to raise my eyebrow was the idea of a Holy Order as serving as the central bank, but then I realized that's actually pretty common in real world conspiracy theories.
> 
> I guess that really settles it. If the guilds don't excite me, the book appears to shy away from detailing the ramifications of being set in an ecumopolis (nevermind that I feel ecumopolis settings actually dilute the appeal of an Urban location), and the book doesn't really seem to have any thematic elements that sing out to me...
> 
> The setting is just not for me. Pity.




They can't all be all things to all people.


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## Remathilis (Oct 23, 2018)

Jester David said:


> After all, the iconic "adventure" is the party guarding a caravan going from place A to B. Knowing the Guilds likely tells me who would be owning and operating the trade caravan. But it wouldn't tell me what was in the caravan, where it was going, and likely not who would try and and hijack it.




If its a Golgari caravan, it could be traveling from the undercity to the surface with food, but a couple of Radkos bandits have claimed a portion of the area near the exit, and are extracting high tolls (in blood and treasure) to pass.

If its an Izzet caravan, it could be a new invention of top secret design that has members of Simic, Gruul, and Dimir wanting to send teams of investigators to examine.

If its an Orzlov caravan, it might contain gold collected as tribute, gold that has drawn the attention of a Selensya Robin Hood type and a Boros warlord who seeks revenge for what Orzlov did to his brother...

Those are just a few examples I came up with off the top of my head.


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## cbwjm (Oct 23, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> Yes, I know. It is a D&D product that adapts MtG material as it is advertized. Yet the MtG content is lacking. It just containt guilds that will be forgotten soon. This book is a missed opportunity to enrich D&D and player experience with MtG iconic spells, magical items, monsters, NPCs and location. Just like how D&D IP turned into MtG cards would enrich MtG.




I disagree, I think what is included is more than enough to enrich DnD, who knows, it might lead to more down the track. I get it, it's not what you want, and had this been the "Magic the Gathering" setting then I would probably share in your disappointment, but it isn't. It's a Ravnica setting. It doesn't need all of the MtG content in it to run the setting, it needs the iconic Ravnica setting elements to in order to run the setting. The various planeswalkers aren't required, only a single one (Jace) is even relevant to the setting of Ravnica and even then, there is no need to explicitly make him a planeswalker in this setting book. 

Basically, I want a book that provides information on running a game in Ravnica and that's what we're getting.


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## gyor (Oct 23, 2018)

cbwjm said:


> I disagree, I think what is included is more than enough to enrich DnD, who knows, it might lead to more down the track. I get it, it's not what you want, and had this been the "Magic the Gathering" setting then I would probably share in your disappointment, but it isn't. It's a Ravnica setting. It doesn't need all of the MtG content in it to run the setting, it needs the iconic Ravnica setting elements to in order to run the setting. The various planeswalkers aren't required, only a single one (Jace) is even relevant to the setting of Ravnica and even then, there is no need to explicitly make him a planeswalker in this setting book.
> 
> Basically, I want a book that provides information on running a game in Ravnica and that's what we're getting.




 Well some other Planeswalkers are relevant to the setting, like the ones that are from Ravnica like Ral,  Vryrska,  Domri Rad. I'd say Liliana lived on the plane for a good amount of time as well,  although she isn't native to it,  but neither is Jace. Still none are essentially to the day to day functioning of Ravnica,  not even Jace,  who is often MIA. That might change with the current card sets plot,  but this book is set before the current card set with it's Planeswalkers Guildmasters.


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## cbwjm (Oct 23, 2018)

gyor said:


> Well some other Planeswalkers are relevant to the setting, like the ones that are from Ravnica like Ral,  Vryrska,  Domri Rad. I'd say Liliana lived on the plane for a good amount of time as well,  although she isn't native to it,  but neither is Jace. Still none are essentially to the day to day functioning of Ravnica,  not even Jace,  who is often MIA. That might change with the current card sets plot,  but this book is set before the current card set with it's Planeswalkers Guildmasters.



And they still aren't really relevant to the setting, at least them being planeswalkers isn't. They could just be any other named NPC. The only real reason Jace is important is because he is the living guildpact, he could be just a regular person in Ravnica instead of a planeswalker and it wouldn't really change anything foe this book.


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## gyor (Oct 23, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> While true, the Guilds are more important than geography: there are no nation's, cities or institutions outside of the Guildpact.




 According to the novels yes there are, but different areas do have local governments that aren't guild based,  but no area is absent of guild influence and many,  maybe most are run by the guilds,  and no location is beyond the power of the guildpact's magic. The guilds are the world government, and the munciple government for the Capital,  but not every local government. In some places only a single guild rules,  in others the locals have their own style of governments. 

 This is why murder is legal in the City of Ravnica,  it's only illegal to murder Wojeks, because the Orzhov and Rakdos insisted on that,  but in other cities,  murder is illegal,  maybe even in most cities on the world/plane,  that isn't rules by the more blood thirsty guilds.


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## gyor (Oct 23, 2018)

cbwjm said:


> And they still aren't really relevant to the setting, at least them being planeswalkers isn't. They could just be any other named NPC. The only real reason Jace is important is because he is the living guildpact, he could be just a regular person in Ravnica instead of a planeswalker and it wouldn't really change anything foe this book.




 In this context you are right.


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## gyor (Oct 23, 2018)

flametitan said:


> Ok, so I did some more reading, and I can't say the guilds hold my interest. They're the major players, the major selling point of Ravnica... and they feel generic. Like, they don't really feel like they play with the tropes they were assigned, and instead just are what they say on the tin. Sure, they double as performing civic duties to the city, but that's about it. The only one that got me to raise my eyebrow was the idea of a Holy Order as serving as the central bank, but then I realized that's actually pretty common in real world conspiracy theories.
> 
> I guess that really settles it. If the guilds don't excite me, the book appears to shy away from detailing the ramifications of being set in an ecumopolis (nevermind that I feel ecumopolis settings actually dilute the appeal of an Urban location), and the book doesn't really seem to have any thematic elements that sing out to me...
> 
> The setting is just not for me. Pity.




 Read the novels to get a better feel for the setting. Based on philosophy and so on you'd think Orzhov would always be the bad guy and Selsnyia would always be the good guys,  but its far more complicated then that. Orzhov, Tessa have been sort of the good guys in several novels. Selsynia has been the bad guys several times. 

 And Boros seems like the obvious LG guys,  until you remember that they were okay with a deal that allowed murder to be Iegal in the capital city,  and that there is a paradoxical under current of chaos to their sense of order when their passion gets the best of them. 

 Even Rakdos helped save the day once. 

 Dimir is currently apart of the good guys side in the current card sets,  even though they usually are the bad guys. 

 And all the guilds have hidden agendas,  dark and light side,  and secrets,  and subfactions. 

 There are corrupt clergy in Orzhov,  but there are also true believers like the Order of the Deathpact that are willing to die for what they believe in. 

 The setting has so much potential.


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## cbwjm (Oct 23, 2018)

gyor said:


> In this context you are right.



Oh yeah, definitely only in the context of this book. In the context of the MtG plotline, planeswalkers are the real movers and shakers of the story shaping entire blocks of MtG.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 23, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> If its a Golgari caravan, it could be traveling from the undercity to the surface with food, but a couple of Radkos bandits have claimed a portion of the area near the exit, and are extracting high tolls (in blood and treasure) to pass.
> 
> If its an Izzet caravan, it could be a new invention of top secret design that has members of Simic, Gruul, and Dimir wanting to send teams of investigators to examine.
> 
> ...




Guilds, guilds and  guilds. It is gonna grow old fast.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 23, 2018)

gyor said:


> There are plenty of unique locations in Ravnica. Guild HQ,  various districts holy places of the various guilds,  military academies,  places where magic is taught. The 10th district is getting a detailed map. Tons of locations are in the 10th district, Zonuts,  libraries,  guildhalls,  run down areas, Guildgates,  Wojek Centre Forte,  and more,  and I think the Guildhalls get maps too. Plus rubble belts will likely get a call out in the Gruul section. Old Ravnica is discussed. They might mention the shocklands,  I don't know.
> 
> Seriously look at the wiki and Ravnica cards for locations that might appear in the book. Plus we might get new ones too. There are six wards basically mentioned + Old Ravnica.




The book has 24 pages on tge world. Considering there might be email maps and art there will not be many locations.


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## Rossbert (Oct 23, 2018)

Yes, if you dislike the guilds this is not the setting for you. 

Just like Dark Sun is not for people who dislike psionics and you have to like an age of sail/spacefaring style game for Spelljammer.  If you dislike magitech and dragonmarks Eberron doesn't have much unique for you.

If you dislike the core concept of a setting I absolutely don't recommend you play it. My brother can't play Eclipse Phase at all because he struggles with transhumanism.

The City of Guilds created and regulated by the Guildpact of the Guildmasters is very much about guilds, if you don't want to engage with it to some degree you probably will be happier with some other setting.  Fortunately there is decades of material for several settings for D&D and dozens to hundreds of premade settings if you are open to adapting from other RPGs, many of them would require minimal conversion as a bonus.


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## gyor (Oct 23, 2018)

Rossbert said:


> Yes, if you dislike the guilds this is not the setting for you.
> 
> Just like Dark Sun is not for people who dislike psionics and you have to like an age of sail/spacefaring style game for Spelljammer.  If you dislike magitech and dragonmarks Eberron doesn't have much unique for you.
> 
> ...




 Honestly I don't understand the hate some people have for transhumanism.


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## gyor (Oct 23, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> The book has 24 pages on tge world. Considering there might be email maps and art there will not be many locations.




 They are detailing a single district in a single city,  not the whole world. So a lot of locations can be covered. Guildhalls, Zonots,  temples, important government buildings. All six precincts in the district get covered. Now each individual location will likely only get a paragraph at most,  some only a sentence,  but I expect 20 to 60 locations will get mentioned in the book.


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## gyor (Oct 23, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> Guilds, guilds and  guilds. It is gonna grow old fast.




 Tell the to MtG fans who can't get enough of Ravnica. 

 Still I would be cool if they eventually explore more regions of Ravnica, maybe explore regional variants of guilds,  areas where the guilds hold less sway,  none guild organizations and maybe preguild pact Ravnica.


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## Parmandur (Oct 23, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> The book has 24 pages on tge world. Considering there might be email maps and art there will not be many locations.




They spend 24 pages on the main megacity District. The Guilds, which they spend huge amounts of space on, are the world for narrative purposes.

But, hey, different stroke for different folks: this may not be the book for you.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 23, 2018)

Rossbert said:


> Yes, if you dislike the guilds this is not the setting for you.
> 
> Just like Dark Sun is not for people who dislike psionics and you have to like an age of sail/spacefaring style game for Spelljammer.  If you dislike magitech and dragonmarks Eberron doesn't have much unique for you.
> 
> ...



Dark Sun and Spelljammer aren't comparable to Eberron. Yes Eberron is magitech and dragonmarks, but it is so much more. Those can be ignored and you can focus on the Inspired or Xendrik or the Lords of Dust, etc. Eberron has multiple facets. Dark Sun not so much althought they did try to change that with the 2nd box and some supplements.

Ravnica is even less multi-facetted than Dark Sun. It just has the guilds. And those are easy to make. I'm surprised that those who say they do not need campaign info cause they can invent it want pre-made guilds.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 23, 2018)

gyor said:


> They are detailing a single district in a single city,  not the whole world. So a lot of locations can be covered. Guildhalls, Zonots,  temples, important government buildings. All six precincts in the district get covered. Now each individual location will likely only get a paragraph at most,  some only a sentence,  but I expect 20 to 60 locations will get mentioned in the book.




That is even less sensical. It like buying the Old Grey Box and having only Suzail described.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 23, 2018)

gyor said:


> Tell the to MtG fans who can't get enough of Ravnica.
> 
> Still I would be cool if they eventually explore more regions of Ravnica, maybe explore regional variants of guilds,  areas where the guilds hold less sway,  none guild organizations and maybe preguild pact Ravnica.




They won't. Settings get one book now. I'd be surprised it get even one AP.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 23, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> They spend 24 pages on the main megacity District. The Guilds, which they spend huge amounts of space on, are the world for narrative purposes.
> 
> But, hey, different stroke for different folks: this may not be the book for you.




It isn't a book for anyone needs. In previous iterations of the game it wouldn't have been well recieved. But now people are starved for content, and will accepte anything. Even those who say they do not need content cause they can make it up (why buy it if you can come up with guilds yourself? ).


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## Rossbert (Oct 23, 2018)

Mostly I need the monster stat blocks, and am curious what the official take on some of the magic items are, though I didn't notice bamsticks or pendriks in there


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## Jester David (Oct 23, 2018)

Rossbert said:


> Yes, if you dislike the guilds this is not the setting for you.
> 
> Just like Dark Sun is not for people who dislike psionics and you have to like an age of sail/spacefaring style game for Spelljammer.  If you dislike magitech and dragonmarks Eberron doesn't have much unique for you.
> 
> ...



You're right about Spelljammer, which is a one-note setting of Age of Sail spaceships. There's a lot of factions and locations and funkiness, but if you dislike Victorian style magical spacesailing, then the setting won't appeal to you. 

Dark Sun isn't just psionics, but campaigns in a post-Apocalyptic ruined world. For the most part, you can squint and ignore psionics; a monster casting a "spell" works largely the same if it is psionic or arcane. Instead, you can focus on slave uprisings, life in a gladiatorial pit, caravan guards through the wastes, helping a small village survive and find water, loyal soldiers of a Sorcerer King waging war on another city-state, and the like. There's a fair amount going on. 
But, if you don't like the core concept of "D&D with harsh survival in a hostile, unfamiliar world" then, no, you won't like it. 

Eberron is ridiculously large. 
If you don't like either the dragonmark houses or magitech you can still delve into giant ruins in Xen'Drick hunting forgotten relics, or scavenge for lost lore in the ruins of a town scourged during the last war, or deal with new revelations in the Draconic Prophecy, delve through the wilderness looking for dragonshards that will fetch high prices, fight against the Quori and invasion from Sarlona, hunt for the cause of the Day of Mourning, work against the freeing of the Lords of Dust from Khyber, or serve as agents of a kingdom trying to prevent the resumption of the Last War. All that and so very, very much more. And that's just the adventure concepts from someone who only read the 3.5e Campaign Setting. 
It's a great example of what a campaign setting _should_ be. Five people what their top three things about Eberron are and you'll end up with a dozen different answers. Because the setting book doesn't try and tell you want you should be playing in the setting, it gives you a buffet of options. It's an example of how you design a campaign setting in the modern day rather than the early one-not settings of 2nd Edition.

_Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica_ is a stark contrast. From the description of the back cover of GGtR there's only the one campaign concept for every campaign: you're agents of one or more guilds. That's comparable to setting-ettes like _Council of Wyrms_ or _Ghostwalk_.


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## Rossbert (Oct 23, 2018)

That is valid, and I am being a degree disingenuous.  For comparison purposes I am somewhat pretending I don't know about any publications for a setting beyond the first one (I may have had a lot of Dark Sun stuff cross my desk this month).


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## Parmandur (Oct 23, 2018)

Jester David said:


> You're right about Spelljammer, which is a one-note setting of Age of Sail spaceships. There's a lot of factions and locations and funkiness, but if you dislike Victorian style magical spacesailing, then the setting won't appeal to you.
> 
> Dark Sun isn't just psionics, but campaigns in a post-Apocalyptic ruined world. For the most part, you can squint and ignore psionics; a monster casting a "spell" works largely the same if it is psionic or arcane. Instead, you can focus on slave uprisings, life in a gladiatorial pit, caravan guards through the wastes, helping a small village survive and find water, loyal soldiers of a Sorcerer King waging war on another city-state, and the like. There's a fair amount going on.
> But, if you don't like the core concept of "D&D with harsh survival in a hostile, unfamiliar world" then, no, you won't like it.
> ...




So, the best comparisons I can think if are, firstly, Shadowrun, and secondly, Star Trek Adventures.

Ravnica is basically low-tech (no computers), high-magic Shadowrun. It's a Rennisance-Punk setting with all-powerful Megacorps that are in control of everything.

In Star Trek Adventures, PC generation is entirely focused on Star Fleet careers. There are other people in the universe, but someone coming to a Star Trek game is essentially saying that they want to be in Star Fleet. 

There are three main audiences for this book, in my estimation:

1.) Folks who want to play in the exact setting of the novels and short fiction. This is covered by the Tenth District material, and the Guild material.

2.) Folks who want to play with the Guild setup and world, but be away from the beaten path of the fiction. Guild material and procedural tables fill this need.

3.) Homebrewers who want to pick the book over for spare parts. Monsters, PC crunch, Reknown system tweaks, stated out factions with unusual philosophies and tables fill this need.

Personally, I'm in category 3, and they had me sold at "playable Centaurs." But I'm an easy sell, honestly.


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## gyor (Oct 23, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> So, the best comparisons I can think if are, firstly, Shadowrun, and secondly, Star Trek Adventures.
> 
> Ravnica is basically low-tech (no computers), high-magic Shadowrun. It's a Rennisance-Punk setting with all-powerful Megacorps that are in control of everything.
> 
> ...




 Category (4) those who want to poach the races and subclasses for use in the Forgotten Realms. FR has Centaurs,  Minotaurs,  Loxodons (Loxo), Goblins. 

 Circle of Spores Druid makes a good druid for darker gods and druids of the Shadowfell. 

 Order Domain is good for any lawful God. 

 Vedelken and Simic Hybrid are in FR,  but both scream creations of the Creator Races. Vedelken could be a descendant of the Batrachi and the Simic Hybrids could be the result of Batrachi and Sarrukh experimentation,  both where known to use magic to merged different creates to create new ones,  as well as mutating themselves,  and mixing their own genes with their creations. That is how they created Doppelgangers, Bullywugs,  Tako,  Lizardfolk,  Pterafolk,  Nagas,  Yuan Ti,  Abashi,  and more. 

 Even many of monsters can be poached. Use Angels to fill out roles within ranks of the servants of the Gods. Thay would totally be open to creating Thrulls. 

 Felidar,  servants cat linked deities like Sharess,  Nobanion, Anhur,  Ra, and Nature Deities like Silvanus, Chauntea, Lurue,  Malar (in the case of Fallen Felidars), Mielikki.

 Demons come in endless variety,  so that is a no brainer. 

 Undead could be produced by any sort of necromancer. 

 Hypersonic Dragons could be refugees from Abeir. Pit Dragons might be usable as Grey Dragons depending on stats. 

 The NPCs are harder to use,  but some might still be useful in FR, especially templates.

 Only the really the Bracers of Illusion would likely be setting neutral enough to use in FR for magic items. Cod be wrong.

 Any knew types of Dryads fit into the Feywild and Get filled regions as well. 

 Some of the other monsters could fit too, I'd have to see them first.


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## gyor (Oct 23, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> They won't. Settings get one book now. I'd be surprised it get even one AP.




 Sadly true. It's a great edition whose one weakness is a huge lack of ambition so it never reaches it's potential.


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## MonsterEnvy (Oct 23, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> It isn't a book for anyone needs. In previous iterations of the game it wouldn't have been well recieved. But now people are starved for content, and will accepte anything. Even those who say they do not need content cause they can make it up (why buy it if you can come up with guilds yourself? ).




Thats not how it works.  The Guilds are a part of the worlds Lore. There are only 10 of them. And they determine nearly everything. 

You are pretty much complaining about something you have no idea about.


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## gyor (Oct 23, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> That is even less sensical. It like buying the Old Grey Box and having only Suzail described.




 I think the 10th district is bigger then Suzail,  but your point is well taken. MtG settings are more Settingettes as someone mentioned,  then full settings. In fact 5e really doesn't do full Campaign Setting Guides anymore,  even FR didn't get one. 

 Honestly I don't know what to tell you. I'm getting it for the races,  the subclasses,  and the Beastiary,  although I will enjoy the Guilds sections as well and the 10th district Map. 

 Still it's impossible to fully gage the value of a book by it's ToC,  I made that sort of mistake with the SCAG. 

 I don't think it is a setting I would use all the time,  maybe once in a while,  or as crossover in other campaigns,  unlike FR where the options are endless.


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## gyor (Oct 23, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> That is even less sensical. It like buying the Old Grey Box and having only Suzail described.






MonsterEnvy said:


> Thats not how it works.  The Guilds are a part of the worlds Lore. There are only 10 of them. And they determine nearly everything.
> 
> You are pretty much complaining about something you have no idea about.




 I think the idea is that maybe they should have expanded the setting beyond the capital region,  and maybe explored more locations and cultures. If you read the novels the guilds are the dominate force and the world government of the plane,  but most people are still guileless,  and the guilds don't control everything,  there are organizations outside the guilds,  religions, and cultures that predate the guildpact. And there have been revolts against the guilds. And guilds were even dissolved for a time.

 Its like the government departments, they determine an aweful lot,  from infosteuxture,  to schools, hospitals, the military, even in some cases religion (like in Iran). But no where does it nearky determine everything.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 23, 2018)

gyor said:


> I think the 10th district is bigger then Suzail,  but your point is well taken. MtG settings are more Settingettes as someone mentioned,  then full settings. In fact 5e really doesn't do full Campaign Setting Guides anymore,  even FR didn't get one.
> 
> Honestly I don't know what to tell you. I'm getting it for the races,  the subclasses,  and the Beastiary,  although I will enjoy the Guilds sections as well and the 10th district Map.
> 
> ...




The funny thing is that I already used Ravnica's parts in previous campaigns. I had a necromancer grow hallucinogenic mushrooms on zombies in the sewers of a city. That was the Golgari Swarm influence.

In a village I had a ghost council of the village's founders run things. That des the Orzhov Syndicate influence. 

I also had an ecumenopolis (In ruins) as a moon that orbited a gas giant with many habitable moons. Granted that was more Narnia inspired.

The point is, Ravnica is old(-ish) and I already used its parts.


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## Parmandur (Oct 23, 2018)

gyor said:


> Category (4) those who want to poach the races and subclasses for use in the Forgotten Realms. FR has Centaurs,  Minotaurs,  Loxodons (Loxo), Goblins.
> 
> Circle of Spores Druid makes a good druid for darker gods and druids of the Shadowfell.
> 
> ...




Fair point, I'll say type three would include other settings (Minotaura for Dragonlance, etc.).


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## Parmandur (Oct 23, 2018)

gyor said:


> Sadly true. It's a great edition whose one weakness is a huge lack of ambition so it never reaches it's potential.




Market sustainability is a high ambition. It isn't what D&D has done before, but flaming out every few years wasn't good for settings in the long run either.

Between what we know if the Guildmaster's Guide, and the contents of the Way finder's Guide, it seems their setting strategy is just now coming into focus.


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## gyor (Oct 23, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> That is even less sensical. It like buying the Old Grey Box and having only Suzail described.






Kramodlog said:


> The funny thing is that I already used Ravnica's parts in previous campaigns. I had a necromancer grow hallucinogenic mushrooms on zombies in the sewers of a city. That was the Golgari Swarm influence.
> 
> In a village I had a ghost council of the village's founders run things. That des the Orzhov Syndicate influence.
> 
> ...




 So use some of the monsters and NPCs, or use a different aspect of the guild as inspiration,  they are very broad.

 One idea,  maybe a village has temple dedicated to a rogue Deathpact Angel,  who has trained an order of clerics to serve her and worship and help create new Deathpact Angels. And it seems evil at first,  but maybe she eliminated a threat to the village, and the magic she taught her order of clerics helped stop plague the village was suffering from, and the magic has helped ths village propster and converts from missiinary work is helping the village to grow.

 Or you in your travels stumble into a strange war between Felidar and Hell Hounds, celestial cats vs. fiendish dogs, and you have to make sense of strange war.

 Maybe you refluff Thrulls as beautiful instead of ugly and create a bit of an altered carbon type story, where the ghosts of a dead village possess the bodies of their beautiful Thrull servants, but are always searching for bodies that would make for good new Thrulls, both as servants, and hosts.

 Maybe you use Rakdos' stats as the stats of a simular demon lord 5e hasn't gotten to yet.

 Maybe you use the Orzhov guild as a basic template for a government, but you replace the ghost council with the angel Aurelia as a Archangel Queen. Maybe you make the Purple Dragon (renamed Angel Knights) Knight Subclass from the SCAG her elite guards.

 Or maybe you just toss random horrors and undead and insects from the book into a simple dungeon crawl.

 Maybe you reuse Sunhome into the Palace of an Ancient Gold Dragon King, fill it will younger gold and silver dragons and dragonborn, and then use Niv Mizzet stat block as a new villian and have him attack with some red dragons and what dragons this book has.

 Maybe any new contracts and weirds in the book find themselves being used in Lantan in FR.

 Maybe another setting invades Ravnica, like the Wizards of Thay stumble upon a spell that creates of portal to Ravnica and they try and take over.

 Or the Gods of say Greyhawk discover Ravnica and start sending visions to the Guileless,  and these new converts distrupt the established guild religions and the lingering faiths the predate the guild system. 

 Maybe a Rakdos cultist bungles a dark rite and instead summons the Demon Lords from Out of the Abyss into Ravnica's Old City and they send Ravnica's old order into choas. 

 Maybe the party sparks and planeswalkers using the Amonkemt rules to Ravnica,  learn it's secrets of magic and then return to their home world to use it's magic to conquer the world. 

 Or maybe you adapt Kenko's Way intro adventure to Waterdeep. 

 Maybe you combine the Order Domain clerics with the Ghostwise Halflings from the SCAG and create a order of Halfling hivemind clerics. 

 Or you use the Kraul,  including the winged Kraul as a tyrantical race that has taken over your world  enslaving everyone else and you are part of a rebellion against the Krual. 

 Or maybe using the Guild rules as a template,  you create new Ravnica Guilds,  rebel guilds,  using out backgrounds as the features. 

 Or your evil heroes are up against an army of Devas riding on Felidar mounts. 

 And that is what I just thought up now before reading the actual book.


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## flametitan (Oct 23, 2018)

gyor said:


> I think the idea is that maybe they should have expanded the setting beyond the capital region,  and maybe explored more locations and cultures. If you read the novels the guilds are the dominate force and the world government of the plane,  but most people are still guileless,  and the guilds don't control everything,  there are organizations outside the guilds,  religions, and cultures that predate the guildpact. And there have been revolts against the guilds. And guilds were even dissolved for a time.
> 
> Its like the government departments, they determine an aweful lot,  from infosteuxture,  to schools, hospitals, the military, even in some cases religion (like in Iran). But no where does it nearky determine everything.




That's basically my problem with the book. It doesn't really feel like a full setting that takes advantage of its ecumopolis premise, in favour of focusing solely on how the guilds interact. Now, I get why the guilds are a big deal to people. In the card game, the guilds are the main way of interacting with the setting, being the archetypes you build your deck around. For a CCG, strong, clear archetypes are going to be what makes the game interesting, and the world those archetypes exist in is mostly window dressing.

The issue, however, is that what makes for a good CCG setting doesn't necessarily translate into making a good rpg setting on a 1:1 basis. Even if everyone in the setting is sorting hatted out into one of these factions, the faction they belong to will still only be one small element of their character. The world the factions and characters inhabit should instead take the forefront. The thoughts and beliefs of the average person will rise to prominence; cultural practices that might previously have been a throwaway line on a card now have to become living, breathing events; locations that would've been a backdrop element on that card need to be developed places with character.

It sounds like Ravnica has some amount of this from the novels (though I doubt I'll read them; I'd rather not have to hunt down books for a world I've lost interest in on the off chance they'll respark it), but it also seems like the D&D setting book focuses a bit too much on what makes it cool for Magic players, and less so on what makes it cool for running an RPG in. That's not necessarily a _bad_ thing, per se, so much as it not being for me, and not targeted for me. I've got Eberron, Planescape, and my own world ideas to tide me over until something really exciting catches my eye.


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## gyor (Oct 24, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> That is even less sensical. It like buying the Old Grey Box and having only Suzail described.






flametitan said:


> That's basically my problem with the book. It doesn't really feel like a full setting that takes advantage of its ecumopolis premise, in favour of focusing solely on how the guilds interact. Now, I get why the guilds are a big deal to people. In the card game, the guilds are the main way of interacting with the setting, being the archetypes you build your deck around. For a CCG, strong, clear archetypes are going to be what makes the game interesting, and the world those archetypes exist in is mostly window dressing.
> 
> The issue, however, is that what makes for a good CCG setting doesn't necessarily translate into making a good rpg setting on a 1:1 basis. Even if everyone in the setting is sorting hatted out into one of these factions, the faction they belong to will still only be one small element of their character. The world the factions and characters inhabit should instead take the forefront. The thoughts and beliefs of the average person will rise to prominence; cultural practices that might previously have been a throwaway line on a card now have to become living, breathing events; locations that would've been a backdrop element on that card need to be developed places with character.
> 
> It sounds like Ravnica has some amount of this from the novels (though I doubt I'll read them; I'd rather not have to hunt down books for a world I've lost interest in on the off chance they'll respark it), but it also seems like the D&D setting book focuses a bit too much on what makes it cool for Magic players, and less so on what makes it cool for running an RPG in. That's not necessarily a _bad_ thing, per se, so much as it not being for me, and not targeted for me. I've got Eberron, Planescape, and my own world ideas to tide me over until something really exciting catches my eye.





 I get what your saying and I partially agree, but I think your jumping the gun here. They call these organizations guilds,  but they are so much more then guilds in the traditional sense. They are one part religion,  one part nation (or nations),  one part Union,  one part Corporation, one part magic acamedy,  one part social service department,  and so much more. 

 Take the Golgori for example they act as the recyclers,  morticians for regular folk,  the food banks,  the farmers,  food trading business,  scavengers,  first line of defence against potential threats from the depths of old Ravnica,  Necromancers,  Druids,  keepers of the history of Old Ravnica,  keep the peace between rival tribes monsters,  rule huge areas of Old Ravnica and other areas, tour guides to Old Ravnica, they have their own order of Assassins and more. 

 Rakdos is the labour union for miners, and the trade in raw metals,  they run the carnivals, mercs, dark magic cultists,  necromancers, entertainers, criminal gangs,  and more. 

 The Boros are the military,  body guards for hire,  run fighting academies,  train evokers,  explore the Skies of Ravnica searching strange things,  create battle angels,  run the Wojeks,  the Skyjeks. 

 Orzhov run the banks,  a religion (or religions it's unclear),  aristocrats,  train wizards and sorcerers,  run criminal cartels,  run Lawmage firms,  create the basic currenency and Alms coins, and more.

 As for the books you can find them as Ebooks for extremely cheap in the kindle store,  around $6 Canadian,  which would be like $5 or $4 American to buy the bigger books,  the Novellas cost even less. Easy to find too.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 24, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> Thats not how it works.  The Guilds are a part of the worlds Lore. There are only 10 of them. And they determine nearly everything.
> 
> You are pretty much complaining about something you have no idea about.




I have a pretty good idea of what they are. They are the entire setting of Ravnica in that D&D supplement. It will get old fast. As Jester pointed out, there use to be a setting called Council of Wyrms where you played dragons. You could play it it for long Same for the 3e setting Ghostwalk. You could play the dead soul of your character. They are one trick ponies that do not can be fun at first, but become boring real fast. 

There also was the Planescape setting. The planes and Sigil had factions which is another word ofr guilds. Factions quickly became part of the background of our adventures rather than the main feature. What saved Planescape was the dept of the setting. It had other stuff to offer than factions. With out that dept, the setting would be as forgotten as Birthright.

I played and/or DMed in all those settings (except Birthright). Gimmicks get old fast. Dept is what is needed to make a players and DMs reach for that book more than once.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 24, 2018)

gyor said:


> I get what your saying and I partially agree, but I think your jumping the gun here. They call these organizations guilds,  but they are so much more then guilds in the traditional sense. They are one part religion,  one part nation (or nations),  one part Union,  one part Corporation, one part magic acamedy,  one part social service department,  and so much more.
> 
> Take the Golgori for example they act as the recyclers,  morticians for regular folk,  the food banks,  the farmers,  food trading business,  scavengers,  first line of defence against potential threats from the depths of old Ravnica,  Necromancers,  Druids,  keepers of the history of Old Ravnica,  keep the peace between rival tribes monsters,  rule huge areas of Old Ravnica and other areas, tour guides to Old Ravnica, they have their own order of Assassins and more.
> 
> ...




I think you're too optimistic on the "evergreeness" of a setting that focus so much on guilds and doens't develop the world all that much. Quickly players will want something else. You sound like you have a good imagination and you can provide that. But if you have to come up with your own material to make Ravnica interesting and are leaving the guilds behind, it seems to me like there is a major flaw in the design of the book.


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## gyor (Oct 24, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> I have a pretty good idea of what they are. They are the entire setting of Ravnica in that D&D supplement. It will get old fast. As Jester pointed out, there use to be a setting called Council of Wyrms where you played dragons. You could play it it for long Same for the 3e setting Ghostwalk. You could play the dead soul of your character. They are one trick ponies that do not can be fun at first, but become boring real fast.
> 
> There also was the Planescape setting. The planes and Sigil had factions which is another word ofr guilds. Factions quickly became part of the background of our adventures rather than the main feature. What saved Planescape was the dept of the setting. It had other stuff to offer than factions. With out that dept, the setting would be as forgotten as Birthright.
> 
> I played and/or DMed in all those settings (except Birthright). Gimmicks get old fast. Dept is what is needed to make a players and DMs reach for that book more than once.




 Even once you feel like the Setting has been tapped dry from within itself, you still have a basic MM style chapter like MTOF and VGTM,  plus player races and subclasses, maybe some other things. Do I wish they had extra space to focus on the Ravnica as planet wide city? Yes. Do I wish for more space to explore more distant parts of the setting?  Yes. But I knew that this book was going to be very focused so I made my piece with it.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 24, 2018)

gyor said:


> Even once you feel like the Setting has been tapped dry from within itself, you still have a basic MM style chapter like MTOF and VGTM,  plus player races and subclasses, maybe some other things. Do I wish they had extra space to focus on the Ravnica as planet wide city? Yes. Do I wish for more space to explore more distant parts of the setting?  Yes. But I knew that this book was going to be very focused so I made my piece with it.




Always revolt. Never surrender.


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## gyor (Oct 24, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> Always revolt. Never surrender.




 Choose your battles wisely and have realistic expectations.


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## Rossbert (Oct 24, 2018)

Obviously we don't know a lot with the book not out, plus I didn't play the card game enough to know any flavor text (all my knowledge coming from the design pages and the book). 

But I think the crux of the arguments come down to some people doubting how much a person's kingdom job and neighbors influence their lives, and possibly an overestimation of how much material a setting can realistically have in it first foray into print.

Of course Ravnica will have much less than Faerun, Athas, Sigil or Eberron.  It has a couple hundred pages to put forth the important concepts and enough game material to get going. I counted well over a thousand pages of Dark Sun material.   Heck, I had that much Al-Qadim. by last week. Forgotten Realms has more novels than I can count about one person.

Ravnica will probably have plenty of stuff to get someone who likes that setting and the themes going but will obviously have a very open landscape to be filled in by players and DMs since they only have the one sourcebook and a handful of small novels.

I'm okay with that, in part because I get the idea of Ravnica (and love me some Simic, I wanted to be a genetic engineer when I was younger), and in part because I always felt a little uncomfortable getting into a Forgotten Realms game because I thought I needed to read 20 years of material to know what is going on and what is being referenced.


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## gyor (Oct 24, 2018)

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/arcana/closer-look-keyrunes-2012-11-16

 Some info on some of the Keyrunes. I am curious about how signets and keyrunes will translate providing many and using many in a game system with out mana. Maybe it can be used to restore say a first level spell or two in the case of the signet,  but in the case Keyrune spend a 3rd level spell slot to activate it's ability to become a creature.  I assume the creatures will have the construct type no matter the creature they resemble.


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## Eubani (Oct 24, 2018)

Full Caster Subclasses - Check
New spells - Check
No Martial subclasses - Check
No new Fighting Styles or manoeuvres - Check
No new Classes that showcase the new world - Check
Little player material at all - Check

Are the designers utterly incapable of learning from past mistakes?


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## cbwjm (Oct 24, 2018)

Seems fine to me.


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## gyor (Oct 24, 2018)

Eubani said:


> Full Caster Subclasses - Check
> New spells - Check
> No Martial subclasses - Check
> No new Fighting Styles or manoeuvres - Check
> ...




 They do have a martial side bar so maybe it will having fighting style or something. Plus the Sword of the Paruns will likely rock for fighters and maybe Rogues.

 They did have a fighter subclass for this book,  the brute,  but it was too unpopular. 

 Honestly an MtG inspired setting is the worst setting to look for pure martial abilities,  everything seems to be magically changed and even by the standards of MtG magic is insanely common place.


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## gyor (Oct 24, 2018)

Rossbert said:


> Obviously we don't know a lot with the book not out, plus I didn't play the card game enough to know any flavor text (all my knowledge coming from the design pages and the book).
> 
> But I think the crux of the arguments come down to some people doubting how much a person's kingdom job and neighbors influence their lives, and possibly an overestimation of how much material a setting can realistically have in it first foray into print.
> 
> ...




 I'd suggest buying the novels,  the GGR,  and the Art of Ravnica and you should be pretty good.


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## Eubani (Oct 24, 2018)

gyor said:


> They do have a martial side bar so maybe it will having fighting style or something. Plus the Sword of the Paruns will likely rock for fighters and maybe Rogues.
> 
> They did have a fighter subclass for this book,  the brute,  but it was too unpopular.
> 
> Honestly an MtG inspired setting is the worst setting to look for pure martial abilities,  everything seems to be magically changed and even by the standards of MtG magic is insanely common place.




Oooooohhhh a sidebar! Consider me underwhelmed.


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## Parmandur (Oct 24, 2018)

Eubani said:


> Full Caster Subclasses - Check
> New spells - Check
> No Martial subclasses - Check
> No new Fighting Styles or manoeuvres - Check
> ...




If it made money in the past and was well-received, where is the "mistake?"

As pointed out, they tried to introduce a new martial archetype, but it was rejected by popular demand. So it goes. This is a DM book, not a player resource, really: WotC doesn't do pure player books anymore, they seem to be under the impression that Dams are the folks who buy books.

The entire existence of 5E is a testament to being willing to correct mistakes.


----------



## gyor (Oct 24, 2018)

Eubani said:


> Oooooohhhh a sidebar! Consider me underwhelmed.




 You don't know what I'd in it yet,  it could be epic.


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## Parmandur (Oct 24, 2018)

So, double checking the Monster Manual and Volo's Guide, between them have ~20 pages of NPC stat blocks. MToF doesn't have NPC blocks, though it has some racial character types (Drow, Dueregar, Gith). 

Guildmaster's Guide has ~30 pages of NPC blocks. At least one from each Guild will be the named Guildmaster, but that leaves a lot of eminently lootable stat blocks just for NPCs.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 24, 2018)

Rossbert said:


> Obviously we don't know a lot with the book not out, plus I didn't play the card game enough to know any flavor text (all my knowledge coming from the design pages and the book).
> 
> But I think the crux of the arguments come down to some people doubting how much a person's kingdom job and neighbors influence their lives, and possibly an overestimation of how much material a setting can realistically have in it first foray into print.
> 
> ...




I've seen what a setting can realistically have at its first forey. It can be a huge amounts like Forgotten Realms' Old Grey Box or Eberron's original campaign setting or Ravenloft's campaign box. Ravnica's containt ain't there. Not by a long shot.


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## Derren (Oct 25, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> So, the best comparisons I can think if are, firstly, Shadowrun, and secondly, Star Trek Adventures.
> 
> Ravnica is basically low-tech (no computers), high-magic Shadowrun. It's a Rennisance-Punk setting with all-powerful Megacorps that are in control of everything.



And any Shadowrun setting book would be very bare bones and poorly received if all it did was describing the 10 Megacorps and maybe a district of Seattle.


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## gyor (Oct 25, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> So, double checking the Monster Manual and Volo's Guide, between them have ~20 NPC stat blocks. MToF doesn't have NPC blocks, though it has some racial character types (Drow, Dueregar, Gith).
> 
> Guildmaster's Guide has ~30 pages of NPC blocks. At least one from each Guild will be the named Guildmaster, but that leaves a lot of eminently lootable stat blocks just for NPCs.




 Even with say each guildmaster getting a single page,  that leaves 20 pages for NPC templates. Going by the MM you can fit 2 to three templates per page. That is say 40 to 60 NPC templates still.


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## gyor (Oct 25, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> I've seen what a setting can realistically have at its first forey. It can be a huge amounts like Forgotten Realms' Old Grey Box or Eberron's original campaign setting or Ravenloft's campaign box. Ravnica's containt ain't there. Not by a long shot.




 We haven't actually read the book,  only the ToC.


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## gyor (Oct 25, 2018)

Derren said:


> And any Shadowrun setting book would be very bare bones and poorly received if all it did was describing the 10 Megacorps and maybe a district of Seattle.




 The 10th of Ravnica is likely bigger then Settle.


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## Parmandur (Oct 25, 2018)

Derren said:


> And any Shadowrun setting book would be very bare bones and poorly received if all it did was describing the 10 Megacorps and maybe a district of Seattle.




One major advantage that Ravnica has over Shadowrun in that regard is that the DM can just make places up. And this book is filled with procedural generation tables to help do just that, along with a deep dive into the area explored in the fiction of the setting.


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## Parmandur (Oct 25, 2018)

gyor said:


> The 10th of Ravnica is likely bigger then Settle.




I think there is some hang-up over words like "District" or "Guild." The Ravnican Guilds are as similar to the Guilds of, say, Waterdeed as a 19gh century Get eral Store in a small town is to Amazon. And the Tenth District is itself a megacity, not a neighborhood.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 25, 2018)

gyor said:


> We haven't actually read the book,  only the ToC.




And we see guilds take much of the space. Not the world. The products I mentioned had more variety of content in them.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 25, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> One major advantage that Ravnica has over Shadowrun in that regard is that the DM can just make places up. And this book is filled with procedural generation tables to help do just that, along with a deep dive into the area explored in the fiction of the setting.




Why buy a book if you have to invent your setting anyway? Might as well use homebrew settings for cheaper.


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## Parmandur (Oct 25, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> Why buy a book if you have to invent your setting anyway? Might as well use homebrew settings for cheaper.




For the Guilds, and the material around them. If I run it, I'd probably use the Tenth District anyways: 20 pages is more than adequate for a campaign, especially with loads of tables to help make stuff up.

But I'm in this for the playable Medium Centaurs and Loxodon.


----------



## Jester David (Oct 25, 2018)

Thinking on this for a couple days, it occurred to me that this book is apparently 180-odd pages of lore and stuff prior to a giant section of monsters. 
Which is pretty comparable to the _Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron_. If you added a comparable number of monsters to that book, you'd end up with a book almost the exact same size. They're very comparable in the amount of pages. Which makes it interesting to compare what they assign pages to.

So... comparing pages. 
_*Intro. *_The base information of the setting.
GGtR has 5-pages of introduction.
WGtE has 16-pages of introduction
_Winner:_ Eberron.

_*Characters.*_ Character options and advice on making characters.
GGtR has 18-pages. Six new races and two subclasses while detailing two other PHB  races. 
WGtE has 30-pages that add four races but details the role of every PHB race. 
_Winner:_ Hard to say... Eberron goes into much more detail, but GGtG has more content. Leaning to Eberron for explaining how gnomes fit vs just assuming people won't play variant races. 

_*Factions.*_ Guilds and Dragonmark Houses.
GGtR has 70-pages on the guilds with 10 new associated backgrounds, new spells, and magic items. 
WGtE has 24-pages with a background. 
_Winner:_ GGtR clearly takes home the prize for detail here, with each faction receiving six pages of content versus the page each Dragonmark gets.

_*Magic Items.*_ Treasures of wonder.
GGtG has 10-pages.
WGtE also has 10-pages.
_Winner:_ Tie 

_*City.*_ Description of the default location.
GGtR has 24-pages on the Tenth District, with each precinct receiving 3-pages.
WGtE has 40-pages on Sharn, City of Towers.
_Winner:_ Eberron spends less time on each district of the city, but gives so much more attention to the city, and how players relate to it. 

_*Other.*_ The rest of the pages. 
GGtR has 50-pages devoted to "creating adventures". Including 3 more pages for each Guild, detailing their adventures I guess. 
WGtE has some glossaries, some further reading, a map, and some extra art. Oh, and 38-pages devoted to the continent of Khorvaire, everyday life, and the magical economy. 
_Winner._ Probably Eberron...


Looking at the comparison and what time was spent in what areas, you can probably get a good idea of what the _Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica_ looks like if you take the _Wayfarer's Guide to Eberron_ and strip out the entire "Welcome to Khorvaire" chapter and move those pages to the Dragonmark houses, plus half the introduction. And then taking a quarter of the Sharn chapter and using that for Guild related adventure hooks. 

It'd certainly be valid to have an Eberron book focused so much on the Dragonmark Houses and assuming that all adventures are being done by members of the Houses or their agents. After all, there was enough content for an entire 160-page book on the Dragonmarked Houses. But... that seems small to me. That seems to be telling me what kind of campaign to run rather than presenting the world and letting me decide where I want to run the campaign and what about the setting interests me.

That's where I'm at now. Got the book pre-ordered on Amazon so I can do a review. Maybe it will convince me otherwise. I've been wrong about how much I will like/hate WotC products in the past...


----------



## gyor (Oct 25, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> And we see guilds take much of the space. Not the world. The products I mentioned had more variety of content in them.




 The Guilds shape that entire world and most things in it. These are more then just Guilds,  they are world spanning organizations that run the government,  many institutions,  how huge areas the territory,  they all have their school,  soldiers,  monsters and so on.


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## gyor (Oct 25, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Thinking on this for a couple days, it occurred to me that this book is apparently 180-odd pages of lore and stuff prior to a giant section of monsters.
> Which is pretty comparable to the _Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron_. If you added a comparable number of monsters to that book, you'd end up with a book almost the exact same size. They're very comparable in the amount of pages. Which makes it interesting to compare what they assign pages to.
> 
> So... comparing pages.
> ...




 Ravnica's city section is 100% of the book, the whole plane is the city,  the 10th district section is just a focused look at one area. 

 And one has to take into account Eberrons subraces,  Shifters have 4, Warforged have 3, each of the Dragonborn houses have one. Plus Dragonmark feats. 

 And even more importantly the Wayfarer's Guide is getting the Artificer,  with 2 to 4 subclasses. 

 So ultimately WGE has way more character options or at least it appears so from the GGR ToC. 

 As for the rest so much of Ravnica is tied up in the guilds, creatures, and NPCs that coming the two books is hard until GGR is out as WGE gets the artificer.


----------



## Parmandur (Oct 25, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Thinking on this for a couple days, it occurred to me that this book is apparently 180-odd pages of lore and stuff prior to a giant section of monsters.
> Which is pretty comparable to the _Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron_. If you added a comparable number of monsters to that book, you'd end up with a book almost the exact same size. They're very comparable in the amount of pages. Which makes it interesting to compare what they assign pages to.
> 
> So... comparing pages.
> ...




A lot of good, trenchant analysis here. I think between the two books, we can begin to triangulate how WotC plans to do setting books moving forwards. WotC folks have talked about taking the crunch from the WGtE, and putting it in a new hardcover book focusing in on the Five Nation's instead of Sharn. Throw on a beastiary, and I can see a hardcover Eberron book next year that essentially hybridizes these two books in style.

A few notes: in GGtR, "Krenko's Way" on 160 and following (looks to be ~12 pages) is an intro adventure module per Ari Levitch. The rest if the material in that chapter looks to be modeled after, and designed to be used with, chapter 3 in the DMG. I would say that ~36 pages of material flies with your "City" heading as it gives with some of the Sharn material in WGtE.


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## Derren (Oct 25, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> One major advantage that Ravnica has over Shadowrun in that regard is that the DM can just make places up. And this book is filled with procedural generation tables to help do just that, along with a deep dive into the area explored in the fiction of the setting.




As he can in Shadowrun. There are enough empty spaces in the established SR cities to make things up, not to mention many cities which are not detailed at all. Same goes for corporations etc.
And still, Shadowrun is so much more than just the Big 10. And especially newcomers are much better served with descriptions of how people work and live and how cities etc. look like than just with an description of the Megas.
How does it help a new player to envision the Shadowrun world when he has a list of all Wuxing subsidiaries?

Not that Ravnica will even get into this level of detail. Of the 6 pages of content each guild gets 2-3 will likely be rules. Add an art piece and the actual information you get for the guild will be rather small.
So I really wonder if the content of this book will enable you in any way to paint a detailed and immersive picture of Ravnica.


----------



## Remathilis (Oct 25, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Thinking on this for a couple days, it occurred to me that this book is apparently 180-odd pages of lore and stuff prior to a giant section of monsters.
> Which is pretty comparable to the _Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron_. If you added a comparable number of monsters to that book, you'd end up with a book almost the exact same size. They're very comparable in the amount of pages. Which makes it interesting to compare what they assign pages to.
> 
> So... comparing pages.
> ...



It would be interesting how this stacked up to the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide...


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## Parmandur (Oct 25, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> It would be interesting how this stacked up to the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide...




SCAG has ~15 pages of general "welcome to the Forgotten Realms, here are the basics." 

~43 pages for PC options: Races (including a handful of new subraces and variants), Subclasses (11 all told), and how to use them in other settings

~9 pages for Backgrounds.

~54 pages of straight Gazeeter material for the Sword Coast region, which is about the size of the portions of the US and Canada west of the Rocky Mountains combined.

There are ~19 pages of material on the gods and religion in the Forgotten Realms, in the first chapter after other general stuff about Faerun.

Not organized exactly that way, but that's about how it stacks up. It's shorter than the WGtE all around, and waaaay shorter than GGtR. A beastiary would have helped it, actually, though I've gotten good use out of the book.


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## Parmandur (Oct 25, 2018)

Derren said:


> As he can in Shadowrun. There are enough empty spaces in the established SR cities to make things up, not to mention many cities which are not detailed at all. Same goes for corporations etc.
> And still, Shadowrun is so much more than just the Big 10. And especially newcomers are much better served with descriptions of how people work and live and how cities etc. look like than just with an description of the Megas.
> How does it help a new player to envision the Shadowrun world when he has a list of all Wuxing subsidiaries?
> 
> ...




Backgrounds are not rule intensive, crunch wise you can pack them in. There will be a lot of tables in here, but those go to help build the setting in play.

The parallel is not exact: the Guilds are emore important to the world than the Megacoros are, being ancient institutions fused into the fabric of the planet by magical power. There is a little bit in the book on the Guildless it looks like, which is about right for this setting.


----------



## Jester David (Oct 25, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> A lot of good, trenchant analysis here. I think between the two books, we can begin to triangulate how WotC plans to do setting books moving forwards. EotC folks have talked about taking the crunch from the WGtE, and putting it in a new hardcover book focusing in on the Five Nation's instead of Sharn. Throw on a beastiary, and I can see a hardcover Eberron book next year that essentially hybridizes these two books in style.



Mearls has repeatedly said that IF they do another Eberron book, it will synergise with the one on the Guild and likely not reprint much. 

Big “if” as well. If they were planning on doing one, they wouldn’t have done the PDF product and risk reducing the audience. I think we’re getting Ravnica explicitly because they don’t want to release updated setting to stores. 
I doubt we’ll see a non-PoD Eberron book this edition. WGtE is *it*.


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## Parmandur (Oct 25, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Mearls has repeatedly said that IF they do another Eberron book, it will synergise with the one on the Guild and likely not reprint much.
> 
> Big “if” as well. If they were planning on doing one, they wouldn’t have done the PDF product and risk reducing the audience. I think we’re getting Ravnica explicitly because they don’t want to release updated setting to stores.
> I doubt we’ll see a non-PoD Eberron book this edition. WGtE is *it*.




That's not exactly what has been suggested. What Mearls has said:

"This is 100% official content for Eberron. Since it is an ebook, that also means we can update content with comments based on UA playtests of the races and the artificer. If we do an Eberron print product, we will design it to complement as much as possible what the PDF presents.

"Some things, like the artificer, races, and basic world info, will be picked up for a print book, but we want fans to be happy owning both.

"We'll likely make them two, separate things. Just speaking theoretically - the print book might focus on the Five Nations and adventures there, while this covers Sharn in more detail."

https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/1021496102800056321?lang=en

So, as we see, they are openly talking about doing a hardback Eberron book, that would repeat race and Class info, and such things as Dragonmarks, but not the Sharn and other campaign material. Enough to feel like a different book, that somebody might want both. The key here, that is missing from WGtE, is monsters. Eberron has a significant amount of unique monsters, that would happily fill up a valuable book alongside additional Gazeeter material, ala GGtR. I think the reception of Ravnica will determine if they pursue this path, but given the energy they have put into playtesting every single bit of crunch in the WGtE (to the exclusion of any alternatives for future products), it seems to be their operating plan.


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## Jester David (Oct 25, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> That's not exactly what has been suggested. What Mearls has said:
> 
> "This is 100% official content for Eberron. Since it is an ebook, that also means we can update content with comments based on UA playtests of the races and the artificer. *If *we do an Eberron print product, we will design it to complement as much as possible what the PDF presents.
> 
> ...



Emphasis added.



Parmandur said:


> So, as we see, they are openly talking about doing a hardback Eberron book, that would repeat race and Class info, and such things as Dragonmarks, but not the Sharn and other campaign material. Enough to feel like a different book, that somebody might want both.



I don't feel they so much "talked" about it, so much as know how a theoretical product would possibly be written/ outlined. Which is pretty easy to consider. 
It's not that they're making one, it's that they don't want to completely rule it out and know how it would be done. Just like they're not doing a "book of erotic fantasy" but if asked I bet Mearls would be able to give you an elevator pitch for how that would look in 5e as well.



Parmandur said:


> The key here, that is missing from WGtE, is monsters. Eberron has a significant amount of unique monsters, that would happily fill up a valuable book alongside additional Gazeeter material, ala GGtR. I think the reception of Ravnica will determine if they pursue this path, but given the energy they have put into playtesting every single bit of crunch in the WGtE (to the exclusion of any alternatives for future products), it seems to be their operating plan.



The reception to Ravnica will definitely inform the future. Or rather, what they will do in 2020+. Since after the Planeshift books were well received in 2016, it took until now for a full book to materialise. 
They're simply not going to lock in a 2019 Eberron book without knowing how the new campaign setting and PDF did. 

Especially since we haven't even seen the artificer yet, and that full new class will need a LOT of playtesting. After all, they dropped the UA that became the Ravnica subclasses in January of 2018, and they'll need more time for a full class and it's subclasses. And an extra two months in the middle of the holiday season probably won't cut it. 
Assuming the artificer doesn't end up in a different book entirely.


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## gyor (Oct 25, 2018)

Derren said:


> As he can in Shadowrun. There are enough empty spaces in the established SR cities to make things up, not to mention many cities which are not detailed at all. Same goes for corporations etc.
> And still, Shadowrun is so much more than just the Big 10. And especially newcomers are much better served with descriptions of how people work and live and how cities etc. look like than just with an description of the Megas.
> How does it help a new player to envision the Shadowrun world when he has a list of all Wuxing subsidiaries?
> 
> ...




 Shadowrun has had the benifit of decades of source book,  this will be Ravnica first. 

 And Guilds aren't Monolithic organizations. Orzhov has cleric orders,  family cartels, banks,  likely Paladin Orders,  it's own cities,  allied businesses,  and possibly it's own religion. 

 It'd be like you took a Shadowrun Megacorp, actually all 10 of them fused together,  then fused the Catholic church to it, including Vatican City,  then added the World Bank, then added the Mob/Triad/Yukuzuna/Hell's Angels,  then added the Canadian Mint, then Burneau of Business, then added in midevil style Aristocractic families, an afterlife,  then added in a much less ethical BDSM culture.


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## gyor (Oct 25, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Emphasis added.
> 
> 
> I don't feel they so much "talked" about it, so much as know how a theoretical product would possibly be written/ outlined. Which is pretty easy to consider.
> ...




 From what I've seen Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica appears to be selling fairly well so far and it's only in preorder.

 on Amazon it's number 12 right now,  and in Canada it's number 3. I guess Ravnica appeals to our Canadian sensibilities.


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## Parmandur (Oct 25, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Emphasis added.
> 
> 
> I don't feel they so much "talked" about it, so much as know how a theoretical product would possibly be written/ outlined. Which is pretty easy to consider.
> ...




True, nothing is set in stone, nor have they promised anything. However, they have spent this entire year, after Ravnica testing, playtesting Eberron material. The Artificer will be in UA in the next couple of months, Mearls suggested November most recently but made no promises. Keep in mind that they have been playtesting it internally, which is all that is needed for balance. If it appeals to people, they would have the year to nail it down in every detail after having worked on it for all of this year already. That's as much playtesting as anything in the game ever got.


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## Jester David (Oct 25, 2018)

gyor said:


> From what I've seen Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica appears to be selling fairly well so far and it's only in preorder.
> 
> on Amazon it's number 12 right now,  and in Canada it's number 3. I guess Ravnica appeals to our Canadian sensibilities.



Canada is a big RPG market. D&D sells well here and gamers are more common. Something about long winters and needing to find indoor hobbies...

Ravnica is doing okay, but they didn't know that going in. And won't be able to tell if it continues to sell well or has a small spike as a few fans buy it and then sales drop.

Also... that's #12 in D&D. Which isn't *that* impressive given that makes it sixth best setting of the five official D&D books released this year. No, that's not a typo as the licensed _Art & Arcana_ is #2 _and_ #5. 
GGtR is currently #1,490 on the books chart and hasn't cracked the top 100, while _Dragon Heist_ is #449 in books a month after release and hit #18, while _Tome of Foes_ is still #667 in books after being release over five months ago with a highest rank of #3.

Maybe it will have a surge of sales in the next month. Or positive word of mouth will give it additional life. But now it's releasing the same day as _Dungeon of the Mad Mage_, so there's suddenly competition as people have to decide if they can afford both and which product they want more... 



Parmandur said:


> True, nothing is set in stone, nor have they promised anything. However, they have spent this entire year, after Ravnica testing, playtesting Eberron material. The Artificer will be in UA in the next couple of months, Mearls suggested November most recently but made no promises. Keep in mind that they have been playtesting it internally, which is all that is needed for balance. If it appeals to people, they would have the year to nail it down in every detail after having worked on it for all of this year already. That's as much playtesting as anything in the game ever got.



Internal playtesting is important for balance, but the public stuff is important for mass feedback on tone, effectiveness, etc. After all, they've done TWO other versions of the artificer already. They're not going to double down on their third version being beloved without seeing any feedback; if people hate it, it'd be too late to rework it and balance it for a November release.

Plus, a subclass is fairly easy to balance as it only has three or four moving parts that can interact with the game. A class is much, much harder to balance as you need to test it at multiple levels and measure its effects with multiclassing while ALSO testing it's various subclasses. That just *might* take longer than an extra two months.


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## Parmandur (Oct 25, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Canada is a big RPG market. D&D sells well here and gamers are more common. Something about long winters and needing to find indoor hobbies...
> 
> Ravnica is doing okay, but they didn't know that going in. And won't be able to tell if it continues to sell well or has a small spike as a few fans buy it and then sales drop.
> 
> ...




They have reiterated on this Class publicly since January 2017. If the next version gets the thumbs up, it could be finalized by about September of next year for publication in November, which means the Artificer would have been in public playtest longer than every other official Class in 5E was.

I'm not saying they definitely will, but it is pretty clear that they are thinking about it, and working towards it.


----------



## gyor (Oct 25, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Canada is a big RPG market. D&D sells well here and gamers are more common. Something about long winters and needing to find indoor hobbies...
> 
> Ravnica is doing okay, but they didn't know that going in. And won't be able to tell if it continues to sell well or has a small spike as a few fans buy it and then sales drop.
> 
> ...




 I don't think they expect it to do as well as stuff for the Forgotten Realms. It just has to do well enough to make an acceptable profit. Also remember compared to FR,  Ravnica is an unknown setting to many D&D fans.


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## Jester David (Oct 25, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> They have reiterated on this Class publicly since January 2017. If the next version gets the thumbs up, it could be finalized by about September of next year for publication in November, which means the Artificer would have been in public playtest longer than every other official Class in 5E was.
> 
> I'm not saying they definitely will, but it is pretty clear that they are thinking about it, and working towards it.




Fine. Whatever. I give up.
Ravnica is awesome. Eberron is totally coming it 2019. And we'll have an artificer in a hardcover book that comes complete with a coupon for a unicorn that gives blowjobs and craps hundred dollar bills.
I no longer care. I simply cannot debate with you Pollyanna attitude.


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## Parmandur (Oct 25, 2018)

Redacted


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## cbwjm (Oct 26, 2018)

I thought the eberron book was only going to be POD? At any rate, I'd expect to see it show up in the PDF in the next few months.


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## Parmandur (Oct 26, 2018)

cbwjm said:


> I thought the eberron book was only going to be POD? At any rate, I'd expect to see it show up in the PDF in the next few months.




WGtE will get a POD final version, but Mearls has openly speculated about a complementary hardcover repeating the same crunch.


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## Kramodlog (Oct 26, 2018)

gyor said:


> The Guilds shape that entire world and most things in it. These are more then just Guilds,  they are world spanning organizations that run the government,  many institutions,  how huge areas the territory,  they all have their school,  soldiers,  monsters and so on.




But there is still other non-guild affiliated people and stuff on Ravinica. I also want to learn about them too. That makes for a rich and diverse setting. It also increases the books useful life. Council of Wyrms didn't last more than two sessions.


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## gyor (Oct 26, 2018)

Kramodlog said:


> But there is still other non-guild affiliated people and stuff on Ravinica. I also want to learn about them too. That makes for a rich and diverse setting. It also increases the books useful life. Council of Wyrms didn't last more than two sessions.




 I absolutely agree. The beastiary and Kenko's Way and the parts on the guildless will hopefully help with that. I hope to learn about Sewer Goblins,  and the Cult of Yore,  the Angel of Serenity,  and more.


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## gyor (Oct 26, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> WGtE will get a POD final version, but Mearls has openly speculated about a complementary hardcover repeating the same crunch.




 Yeah,  I've heard that,  although they might have some different Artificer subclasses or new subclasses with a racial theme like Chameleons for Changelings bards.


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## Parmandur (Oct 26, 2018)

gyor said:


> Yeah,  I've heard that,  although they might have some different Artificer subclasses or new subclasses with a racial theme like Chameleons for Changelings bards.




In the event that there is an Eberron hardcover (I doubt that they are developing a 13th Class to have on a DMsGuild product, but if they haven't announced it, they can pull the plug at any time) I would wager there would be additional content. But specifically anything they have poured so much energy into UA testing I would expect to see in such a book, along with Eberron monsters.


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## gyor (Oct 26, 2018)

Does anyone else think the School of Invention would have made a cool Artificer subclass, maybe rename it Izzet Engineer.


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## Satyrn (Oct 26, 2018)

gyor said:


> Shadowrun has had the benifit of decades of source book,  this will be Ravnica first.
> 
> And Guilds aren't Monolithic organizations. Orzhov has cleric orders,  family cartels, banks,  likely Paladin Orders,  it's own cities,  allied businesses,  and possibly it's own religion.
> 
> It'd be like you took a Shadowrun Megacorp, actually all 10 of them fused together,  then fused the Catholic church to it, including Vatican City,  then added the World Bank, then added the Mob/Triad/Yukuzuna/Hell's Angels,  *then added the Canadian Mint, *then Burneau of Business, then added in midevil style Aristocractic families, an afterlife,  then added in a much less ethical BDSM culture.




Ooh.  Ravnica's coins are gonna be so colorfully painted or bimetallic, and get loony names. I'm sold.


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## gyor (Oct 26, 2018)

I hope we get a better understanding of how to use these monsters in settings other then Ravnica and how they relate to other creatures of their type. Like how does a Stink Weed Imp fit into the Devilish Hierarchy in Hell? Do Battle Angels serve Gods in the afterlives of Faerun deities?


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## gyor (Oct 26, 2018)

Satyrn said:


> Ooh.  Ravnica's coins are gonna be so colorfully painted or bimetallic, and get loony names. I'm sold.




 Bimetallic coins are awesome,  one of the many wonders of being Canadian. I don't know if Ravnica money shares that quality. I do know Orzhov produces both regular coinage and Alms Coins which can only be spent at Orzhov establishments.


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## Rossbert (Oct 26, 2018)

He is referring to Canadian coins.


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## gyor (Oct 26, 2018)

Rossbert said:


> He is referring to Canadian coins.




 Yeah it dawned on me, I should have known he was refering to the beloved twoony.


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## Satyrn (Oct 26, 2018)

gyor said:


> WTF?  what in what I said suggests bimetallic coins?  I mean they might be,  I don't know. I do know Orzhov produces both regular coinage and Alms Coins which can only be spent at Orzhov establishments.




The bit about the Canadian Mint made me think of toonies.


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## gyor (Oct 27, 2018)

I wonder if any of monsters that appeared in Ravnica stories,  but never in Ravnica MtG cards will appear in GGR.


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## Rossbert (Oct 27, 2018)

I will probably homebrew virusoids (probably similar to zombies) if they aren't present.


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## gyor (Oct 27, 2018)

Rossbert said:


> I will probably homebrew virusoids (probably similar to zombies) if they aren't present.




 I hope Virusiods will be in the GGR.


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## Rossbert (Oct 27, 2018)

Virusoids would be my first choice to have a stat block cut if space was an issue.  While very representative of Simic ideals, they are not in any pre-existing art and really don't seem to bear interesting mechanics, being mostly mindless and abilityless. A small description sums up most of what they are. I just have a hunch the hapless labworkers are going to be interacted with by players (read killed).


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## gyor (Oct 27, 2018)

Rossbert said:


> Virusoids would be my first choice to have a stat block cut if space was an issue.  While very representative of Simic ideals, they are not in any pre-existing art and really don't seem to bear interesting mechanics, being mostly mindless and abilityless. A small description sums up most of what they are. I just have a hunch the hapless labworkers are going to be interacted with by players (read killed).




 We don't know the entirety of Virusiod abilities honestly, 
it's never been explored. Perhaps they can infect enemies with a touch and cure disease with a touch.


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## gyor (Oct 28, 2018)

BTW the fact that Moodpaint is a magic item suggests that stuff from the current sets is in the book because Moodpaint Artist is not a reprint,  but rather a new card just released. Moodpaint has not been previously referee to. This suggests that creatures unique to this set and the next set could end up in the book,  which could provide spoilers for the next two sets of cards.


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