# Beginners' Monster List



## steeldragons (Aug 17, 2011)

This is something of a fork from the 5e Toolkit thread. Inspired by comments by both  @Lanefan  and  @MarkCMG and wandering musing, as I am want to do, by yours truly.

Let's make a Manual of Monsters Starter Kit. Assume you have never  played the game before. What monsters are essential to get a rounded  feel/flavor for a fantasy gaming world?

In a very basic starting set for a fantasy RPG game a la D&D, what "monsters" (this includes mundane animals) would you think worthy to make the cut for providing a solid and varied introduction to the creatures of the game/genre.

Also, who would you give access of their stats to, the players via entries in the Players manual or the DM via a monster's section in the DM's manual?

I recall, in the Basic and Expert sets, the monster section was about half of the DM's book. Mark made the suggestion that players might have access to animals/mundane creatures which makes sense to me, as these would be creatures the PCs would/could have had regular contact with, domesticated animals, common predators (like wolves), etc. Makes sense the PCs would know about these kinds of creatures and the "magical"/otherworldly type things be the purview of the DM...

I also recall, from the Basic (Red) book in particular, that a great deal of "Monster" entires were normal animals (and/or their "giant" types. That's what we called 'em in yon days of yore, before anyone ever heard of a "Dire" anything...I think "Dire Wolves" came about first, but I can't remember where they appeared....well, ANYwho...)

So, let's say, 20 "normal" animals (varieties may be included as a single entry. i.e. "Cat" could include domestic, puma, tiger, etc... and giant/dire versions of each. So it would only count as 1.) 

...and, let's start with 20 "monsters"/magical/not-real-world creatures. Again, variants of types (different dragons, for example) could all be included as a single entry.

*Threadmaker's note: If you want to think in terms of a "5e set", fine, but edition is not really the point here. So let's not make it one. Please and thank you. 

Look forward to all thoughts. Have fun and happy menagerie-ing. 
--Steel Dragons


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## the Jester (Aug 17, 2011)

First of all, no good comes from scattering monster stats between the player and dm books; they should absolutely 100% be dm material. The pcs learn about them through. YMMV and all that.

Secondly, here's my starting palette of monsters for my homebrewed version of D&D:

Ankheg
Ant, giant (worker and soldier)
Ant swarm
Basilisk
Beetle- giant slicer, giant fire, giant oil
Beholder
Carrion crawler
Demon- manes, evistro, vrock
Destrachan
Devil- legion devil recruit, kyton
Dragon, white hatchling
Elemental- lesser fire, moderate earth
Ettin
Frostfolk
Gargoyle
Ghoul
Ghast
Goblin
Golem, iron
Harpy
Hell Hound
Hook Horror
Human
Kobold
Mimic
Ogre
Ooze- gray ooze, green slime, gelatinous cube
Orc
Owlbear
Rat- giant, dire, swarm
Rust monster
Sahuagin
Screaming devilkin
Skeleton
Specter
Spider- swarm, giant gray, giant jumping, giant tarantella, giant black widow
Stirge
Terror bird- axe beak, kocho

Many of the entries have multiples within (goblin bandit, goblin archer, etc). Several of these are included because they fit in the initial playtest adventure- frostfolk wouldn't be on the list otherwise, for instance.
Troll
Wolf 
Wraith
Zombie


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## WillOH (Aug 17, 2011)

In a very basic starting set for a fantasy RPG game a la D&D, what "monsters" (this includes mundane animals) would you think worthy to make the cut for providing a solid and varied introduction to the creatures of the game/genre.

Just some to start off a list

Dragon
Goblin
Ogre
Rats
puddings/gelatinous cube
Spiders
stirges
Wolves



The creature stats should be mostly for the GMS.  Even if players do get stats, they should be simplified.


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## Stormonu (Aug 17, 2011)

I reserve the right to modify my list after hearing from others, just because D&D has so many monsters, its hard to remeber them all.

Normal critters - mostly stuff that might be hunted as game or thought of as encroaching on human territory, as well as pets/domestc animals

- Bear
- Lion/Tiger
- Ape/Gorilla/Baboon
- Boar
- Wolf/War dog
- Horse
- Bat/Mobat
- Giant Spider
- Shark


"Monsters" - mostly well-known creatures of myth, with a couple critters that fill a specific niche (as noted like this)

- Bandit (player's own race as bad guy)
- Medusa (threat of instant death)
- Goblin (weak bad-guy race)
- Orc (common bad guy race)
- Gnoll (strong bad guy race)
- Troll (difficult to kill)
- Giant (bruiser)
- Gelatinous Cube (trap monster)
- Rust Monster (trick monster)
- Dragon (top-tier/endgame enemy)
- Doppleganger (paranoia-inducing enemy)
- Skeleton/Zombie (bad guy minion)
- Ghoul (undead threat)
- Vampire (undead endboss/paranoia enemy [due to charm/minion ability])
- Elemental (otherworldly/strong minion)


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## delericho (Aug 17, 2011)

Depends on what level range you want to cover. The old Red Box had the advantage of covering only levels 1-3, which meant that the most powerful creature would be the equivalent of CR 5 or so.

Anyway, for a beginners set, I would stick mostly with the classics, and throw in a few D&Disms as well. As for an actual list... The Jester's list looks pretty good, I suppose.


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## steeldragons (Aug 17, 2011)

*My 2 Coppers...ok, maybe 4.*

"Normal" creatures for Players and DMs:
*1. Alligator:* normal, crocodile, giant versions of each
*2. Ant:* giant, giant fire
*3. Bear:* black, cave, grizzly, polar
*4. Birds of Prey:* eagle, falcon, hawk, owl, raven, vulture, (normal and giant versions of each, % chance to be intelligent/speaking.)
*5. Cat:* domestic, lion, lynx, puma, sabertooth, tiger, (normal and giant versions of each)
*6. Deer:* stag, elk, moose (normal and giant versions of each.)
*7. Dog:* domestic, hunting/hound, guard/mastiff, wild 
*8. Dolphin:* normal, telepathic
*9. Elephant:* normal, mammoth
*10. Frog: *giant, poisonous, toad/giant and poisonous
*11. Furry Woodland Creature:* Badger, Beaver, Ferret/Weasel, Fox, Otter,  Rabbit/Hare, Squirrel (normal and giant versions of each, % chance to be  intelligent/speaking.)
*12. Herd Animal:* antelope, bison, camel, cow, sheep, wildebeest, yak, zebra
*13. Horse:* draft, riding/light, war/heavy, wild
*14. Rat:* normal, giant, swarm
*15. Scorpion:* normal, giant
*16. Shark:* normal, giant
*17. Snake:* poisonous, constrictor, two-headed (normal and giant versions of each.)
*18. Spider:* poisonous, bola, tarantulas, wolf, large and giant versions for each
*19. Turtle:* giant, giant snapping
*20. Wolf:* normal, giant, winter

PHEW! That was tough! Getting/cutting them down to 20.

And has anyone else noticed that all of the truly dangerous "Real World" creatures begin with a "S"? Why is that?

Anywho...what do we think?
--Steel Dragons


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## Traveon Wyvernspur (Aug 17, 2011)

Interesting topic, I'll toss my small list of ideas out here as well.  Though I do think that possible animal companions and familiars _should_  be included in the players handbook as well as the DMG (the reason  being that they could be monsters for the dm or friendly to the players  and they would be pretty common anyhow).

Basic List:
1) Ants (all the varieties)
2) Basilisk
3) Umber Hulk
4) Displacer Beast
5) Stirge
6) Kolbolds (what campaign could be complete w/o them???)
7) Goblinoids
8) Trolls
9) Gelatinous Cube (and the other slimes could be lumped in here)
10) Dragons (duh they are iconic to fantasy)
11) Giantkin (always love throwing stone-tossing giants at players)
12) Owlbear
13) Greater Undead: Vampires and Liches could be lumped together
14) Lesser Undead: Skeletons, Ghouls, and Zombies could be lumped together
15) Beholder
16) Mimics (for the dungeon delvers)
17) Lycanthropes (all varieties)
18) Spiders (the bigger the better)
19) Humanoids (i.e. human bandits, dwarven warrior, elven archer, et cetera)
20) Demons (I'd put a list of between 5-7 types)

Was just brainstorming so I didn't bother to put into alpha order like some of the others.


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## Jacob Marley (Aug 17, 2011)

This would be my list of monsters. Note: I tried to keep some monsters in a generic form in order to allow room for various other types of monsters to be included. I think this list is fairly comprehensive.*

1. Angel
2. Animal (Bat, Bear, Boar, Dog, Donkey, Elephant, Hawk, Horse, Hyena, Lion, Mule, Rat, Raven, Snake, Tiger, Wolf)
3. Bandit
4. Basilisk
5. Bugbear
6. Centaur
7. Chimera
8. Demon
9. Displacer Beast
10. Dragon
11. Dryad
12. Dwarf
13. Eagle, Giant
14. Elemental
15. Elf
16. Fungus
17. Gargoyle
18. Genie
19. Ghost
20. Ghoul
21. Giant
22. Gnoll
23. Gnome
24. Goblin
25. Golem
26. Griffon
27. Hag
28. Halfling
29. Harpy
30. Hippogriff
31. Hobgoblin
32. Hydra
33. Kobold
34. Knight
35. Lich
36. Manticore
37. Medusa
38. Merchant
39. Merfolk
40. Mind Flayer
41. Minotaur
42. Mummy
43. Nightmare
44. Nymph
45. Ogre
46. Ooze
47. Orc
48. Otyugh
49. Owlbear
50. Pegasus
51. Pilgrim
52. Priest (cleric)
53. Rust Monster
54. Satyr
55. Skeleton
56. Sphinx
57. Sprite
58. Stirge
59. Treant
60. Troglodyte
61. Troll
62. Umber Hulk
63. Unicorn
64. Vampire
65. Vermin (Ant, Beetle, Spider, Wasp)
66. Wight
67. Will-O’-Wisp
68. Wizard
69. Worg
70. Wraith
71. Wyvern
72. Zombie

-JM

Edit: 73. Beholder


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## steeldragons (Aug 17, 2011)

Stormonu said:


> I reserve the right to modify my list after hearing from others, just because D&D has so many monsters, its hard to remember them all.




Wise you are in the ways of posting.  Shoulda waited longer myself.



Stormonu said:


> Normal critters - mostly stuff that might be hunted as game or thought of as encroaching on human territory, as well as pets/domestc animals
> - Bear
> - Lion/Tiger
> - Ape/Gorilla/Baboon
> ...




Apes, boars and BATS! I can not believe I forgot BATS of all things. ugh. 

But the apes and boars as well...right at the front of practically every monster list I've ever seen.

<defeated sigh> Ok, before taking another look to see if at least BATS are workable into my list...or re-negging and admitting we need more than 20 mundane creatures...lemme see what I can come up with for the "Monsters."

I'm going to presume to agree with most of the posters thus far that ALL creatures for a monster starter section should be the purview of the DM only...

While MarkCMG's suggestion makes sense to me, that a PC would have knowledge of "normal" creatures in their day-to-day lives, I suppose that is up to the DM to decide and share with the players as necessary. For example, no reason a game taking place in a desert/arabian-flavored setting should have access to things like sharks or beavers. But camels, elephants...things like scorpions, makes sense.

So, yeah, DM gets all of the info and DM's call as to what PC's would know as common knowledge.

Now...heh, heh, heh..."Monsters"

(How'my gonna do this in 20? I think I painted myself in the proverbial corner of the dungeon with that.)

*1. Basilisk
2. Carrion Crawler
3. Centaur*
*4. Dragon:* Start with a list of 8 (so as not to overwhelm). 1 good and 1 evil for each of the 4 elements, maybe? Soooo, something like: Gold/Red (fire), Silver/Blue (air), Bronze/Black (water), Copper/Green (earth)
*5. Dwarf:* Hill, Mountain, Deep
*6. Elemental:* air, earth, fire, water (normal and giant versions and 1 "humanoid" creature for each: sylph, gnome, salamander, undine)
*7. Elf:* Dark, Grey, High, Wood
*8. Faerie: *Brownie, Pixie, Sprite
*9. Giant:* fire, frost, hill, stone, storm, wood(treants  
*10. Goblinoid:* Goblin, Hobgoblin, Bugbear
*11. Griffon
12. Harpy
13. Human: *Bandit, Barbarian/Berserker, Nomad/Tribesman
*14. Kobold*
*15. Ogre:* normal, two-headed (ettin?)
*16. Ooze:* Gelatinous Cube, Green, Grey, Yellow
*17. Orc
18. Pegasus
19. Troll*
*20. Undead:* Ghoul, Ghost, Skeleton, Spectre, Vampire, Wraith, Zombie

Ok, that was not so hard as the animals, oddly enough. Though there are several that I'd rather see separated out, like "Ghost" and "Vampire" since they are so different from the "mindless" undead and "Grey" and "Dark" elves might better be saved for the next "set"/installment...assuming there is one. But hey, they're there.

And many of the humanoid races would, as Jester mentions, have varying stats for groups and individual specialists, "captains" or "Chiefs" etc.

I _am_ missing a few classics and favorites, like Stirges (always a good low-level threat) and Chimera and Medusa. But my brain is a bit on overload (as Stormonu mentioned) rifling through the various incarnations of MMs...and, then, of course, there is the fact I have work to do! 

Great suggestions/lists thus far.

Check back in a bit.
--Steel Dragons


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## Crazy Jerome (Aug 17, 2011)

I semi-replied via my reply to Lanefan on the spawing topic. Basically, I'd rather have "Stuff that Everyone Needs" book, "Stuff that only the DM Needs" book, and then a third book for the stuff in the middle. Unlike, the Jester, I'm perfectly willing to split monsters across multiple books to make that happen.

So with that said, I agree that any common animals should be in, and maybe some of the dire variants. And good call on familiars. I'd considered mounts, but not those or animal companions in general. 

Then I'd also include some of the most common variants of the most common creatues. Include the basic goblin (and a picture of same), but not the leaders, shamans, etc. Also include a fair amount of lore on each creature type by category. That is, you get the stat block for a single basic goblin, along with the rest of the page on common lore. You can even include a few "rumors" that may or may not be true. (Only the DM knows for sure.) 

On things like horses, the lore section is more about different types, how sturdy they are, etc. And you might have stat blocks for a nag, common mount, and warhorse. 

When you get to monsters that are more prototypical D&D, but not common, you still get a page of lore, but it is definitely sketchy and leans heavily on rumors. The dragon page is like this. While it has no statblock whatsoever, it does have a picture. 

For things like undead, you might have more than one page on "undead", with a sample skeleton and zombie stat block. Or you might have a page on "animated undead" with a skeleton stat block and references to zombies, and another page on "undead" that was more like the dragon section.

Then in the DMG or full-blown Monster Manual(s), you have more of the stat blocks for all these types, including the uncommon stuff.

I'm not wedded to those particular examples. There is room for editor discretion around the basic concept.


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## Traveon Wyvernspur (Aug 17, 2011)

Fun thread, interesting to see what people would put on their lists of 20 monsters. Seems like we have a lot of similarities going on as to what is iconic in D&D.

Oh I have to mention that a lot of us including original poster failed to note the section where he says:

*"...and, let's start with 20 "monsters"/magical/not-real-world creatures.  Again, variants of types (different dragons, for example) could all be  included as a single entry."*

Seems most of us are putting in things like _human bandits_ instead of using the "monsters"/magical/not-real-world creatures caveat, real world could be a completely different list like with the furry animals such as lions, tigers, and bears (oh my!).


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## Jacob Marley (Aug 17, 2011)

Traveon Wyvernspur said:


> Oh I have to mention that a lot of us including original poster failed to note the section where he says:
> 
> *"...and, let's start with 20 "monsters"/magical/not-real-world creatures. Again, variants of types (different dragons, for example) could all be included as a single entry."*




Oops! Well, that just goes to show how difficult it is to pare down monster lists.


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## steeldragons (Aug 17, 2011)

Traveon Wyvernspur said:


> Fun thread, interesting to see what people would put on their lists of 20 monsters. Seems like we have a lot of similarities going on as to what is iconic in D&D.
> 
> Oh I have to mention that a lot of us including original poster failed to note the section where he says:
> 
> ...




It seems I was less than clear. The intention of the original post was for a list of 20- mundane animals/creatures AND and list of 20- "monsters"/magical/not-real-world creatures.

While, yes, I see your point that "Human Bandits" could be considered and were/are certainly real-world enough...in the context of a fantasy game,  think various types of humans (i.e. villainous bandits, crazed berserkers, mysterious nomads) are certainly "monstrous" (not encountered in the real world) beings to be encountered in the gaming world.

Also, since other [presumably] PC races: notably dwarf and elf, but goblin or orc also for some games perhaps, were included, seems fitting humans should go here rather than among the horses, birds, and dogs.

So that's why I, at least, included them among the "monsters" list. 

Now, however, it seems I am going to have to increase my initial proposal as there are simply too many classics getting left by the wayside (or my lists, anyway.) *So how about, we up it to a nice round 50 creatures*.

That's 20 mundane, 20 magical, and 10 more that might have been _ missed/forgotten.

SO, here's the next thing for you guys. Out of the following list, *which 10* are too [olde] skool fer cool and must stay or which get put on the back burner for a presumed next "set" or at least some kind of Monster Expansion book? 

...and yes, keep in mind/think of this as a "starter's set". So think in terms of lower levels (say, not about 4th or 5th)

Ankheg
Ape
Boar
Bat (must go in. Absolutely must.)
Blink Dog
Chimera
Demons (say 3 common/low level types)
Devils (as demons)
Displacer Beast
Dryad
Fungi
Genie
Gnome (as a race, not an elemental being)
Hydra
Lycanthropes (I comPLETEly forgot lycanthropes in my list. Ok, this is a must, also.)
Manticore
Medusa
Minotaur (another "can't believe I forgot it!")
Puddings
Roc
Satyr
Stirge
Umber Hulk

EDIT: OMFG! UNICORNS! I forgot unicorns too!?!? How does one forget unicorns? I am so not right in the head today. 

Ok. So consider "Unicorns" in the above list for the extra 10 that should be included in the Must list of 50.
/EDIT_


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## steeldragons (Aug 17, 2011)

Crazy Jerome said:


> I semi-replied via my reply to Lanefan on the spawing topic. Basically, I'd rather have "Stuff that Everyone Needs" book, "Stuff that only the DM Needs" book, and then a third book for the stuff in the middle. Unlike, the Jester, I'm perfectly willing to split monsters across multiple books to make that happen.
> 
> So with that said, I agree that any common animals should be in, and maybe some of the dire variants. And good call on familiars. I'd considered mounts, but not those or animal companions in general.
> 
> ...




Can't XP you til tomorrow,[MENTION=29358]Crazy[/MENTION]Jerome , but really like this thinking. Though I am still inclined to the 2 books instead of 3, but your "common knowledge/lore entry" for those things that players might have heard of but don't really know/wouldn't have encountered is a very cool concept and I can imagine this sparking quiet a bit of curiosity (and thus interest in exploring!) for new players. Excellent!


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## Mark CMG (Aug 17, 2011)

the Jester said:


> First of all, no good comes from scattering monster stats between the player and dm books; they should absolutely 100% be dm material. The pcs learn about them through (. . .)





Agreed regarding "monsters" but many creatures should be very familiar to players (mounts, beasts of burden, hunting animals like dogs and falcons, as well as pets [cats, ferrets, etc.], etc.) and that's what steeldragons would have been referencing regarding my post in the other thread.  As I said there -




Mark CMG said:


> I like this but would include a small section of animals in the Players' book with creatures like horses, camels, dogs, cats, hawks, ferrets, and maybe bears and some other more dangerous but familiar ones.  It would help during play both regarding the keeping of domesticated animals and in allowing players to better understand the combat sections.





Bears, wolves, and some other dangerous creatures that essentially double as monsters but can be "kept" by civilized beings (even if not domesticated) would aid considerably in understanding how combat works just from reading the books.


I added this later for clarification of my position -




Mark CMG said:


> I'd go with two books for rules and gameplay, one for players (with some animals and such included) then one for GMs with many of the typical cross-setting and mythical creatures plus GM guidelines for creating more.  But I'd also have the setting books be the place for most creatures, common ones included in a player setting book and more information on those creatures and many others in the GM setting book.


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## steeldragons (Aug 18, 2011)

*1. Alligator:* normal, crocodile, giant versions of each
*2. Ant:* giant, giant fire
*3. Bat: *normal/swarm, giant, mobat*
4. Bear:* black, cave, grizzly, polar
*5. Birds of Prey:* eagle, falcon, hawk, owl, raven, vulture, (normal and giant versions of each, % chance to be intelligent/speaking.)
*6. Boar:* normal, giant*
7. Cat:* domestic, lion, lynx, puma, sabertooth, tiger, (normal and giant versions of each)
*8. Deer:* stag, elk, moose (normal and giant versions of each.)*
9. Dog:* domestic, hunting/hound, guard/mastiff, wild 
*10. Dolphin:* normal, telepathic
*11. Elephant:* normal, mammoth
*12. Frog: *giant, poisonous, toad/giant and poisonous
*13. Furry Woodland Creature:*  Badger, Beaver, Ferret/Weasel, Fox, Otter,  Rabbit/Hare, Squirrel  (normal and giant versions of each, % chance to be   intelligent/speaking.)
*14. Herd Animal:* antelope, bison, camel, cow, sheep, wildebeest, yak, zebra
*15. Horse:* draft, riding/light, war/heavy, wild
*16. Rat:* normal, giant, swarm
*17. Scorpion:* normal, giant
*18. Shark:* normal, giant
*19. Snake:* poisonous, constrictor, two-headed (normal and giant versions of each.)
*20. Spider:* poisonous, bola, tarantulas, wolf, large and giant versions for each
*21. Turtle:* giant, giant snapping
*22. Wolf:* normal, giant, winter

*1. Ankheg*
*2. Basilisk
3. Centaur*
*4. Dragon:* Start with a list of 8 (so as not  to overwhelm). 1 good and 1 evil for each of the 4 elements, maybe?  Soooo, something like: Gold/Red (fire), Silver/Blue (air), Bronze/Black  (water), Copper/Green (earth)
*5. Dryad
6. Dwarf:* Hill, Mountain, Deep
*7. Elemental:* air, earth, fire, water (normal and giant versions and 1 "humanoid" creature for each: sylph, gnome, salamander, undine)
*8. Elf:* Dark, Grey, High, Wood
*9. Faerie: *Brownie, Pixie, Sprite
*10. Giant:* fire, frost, hill, stone, storm, wood(treants  
*11. Goblinoid:* Goblin, Hobgoblin, Bugbear
*12. Golem: *Crystal, Flesh, Iron, Stone, Wood*
13. Griffon
14. Harpy
15. Human: *Bandit, Barbarian/Berserker, Nomad/Tribesman
*16. Kobold
17. Lycanthrope: *Were-bear, boar, cat (lion/tiger/etc), rat, wolf*
18. Manticore
19. Medusa
20. Monstrous Vermin: *Carrion Crawler, Rust Monster, Stirge
*21. Ogre:* normal, two-headed (ettin?)
*22. Ooze:* Gelatinous Cube, Green, Grey, Yellow
*23. Orc
24. Pegasus
25. Troll
26. Umber Hulk
* *27. Undead:* Ghoul, Ghost, Skeleton, Spectre, Vampire, Wraith, Zombie
*28. Unicorn*

All of the above go into the DMG.

The following could go into the Player' books, per MarkCMG's recommendation for mounts or familiars and a la Crazy Jerome's "stat/lore."

Fully statted for use/options as Mounts, Familiars (and/or Animal Companions if your game/DM allows/uses them):
*1. Bat: *normal/swarm*
2. Bear:* black, grizzly, polar
*3. Birds of Prey:* eagle, falcon, hawk, owl, raven, vulture (normal and giant)
*4. Boar**
5. Cat:* domestic, lion, lynx, puma, tiger
*6. Deer:* stag, elk, moose *
7. Dog:* domestic, hunting/hound, guard/mastiff, wild 
*8. Elephant*
*9. Furry Woodland Creature:*  Badger, Beaver, Ferret/Weasel, Fox, Otter,  Rabbit/Hare, Squirrel (normal and giant)
*10. Herd Animal:* antelope, bison, camel, cow, sheep, wildebeest, yak, zebra
*11. Horse:* draft, riding/light, war/heavy, wild
*12. Rat:* normal, giant, swarm
*13. Snake:* poisonous, constrictor
*14. Spider:* poisonous, bola, tarantulas, wolf, large and giant versions for each
*15. Wolf:* normal, giant

With a note that other animals are available from your DM as makes sense for your character's background i.e. a PC from a coastal town might get access to dolphins and sharks. One from a desert region could have access to scorpions.
*
"Common Knowledge/lore" List:*
No stats. Just explained in the most generic terms. Just what a "common person" would think/might know about when someone  says "dragon" or "fairy" or "goblin"...and basic info that would be common knowledge.

For example, maybe including under the Lycanthrope entry something like, "It is said those cursed with this unnatural affliction are averse to silver." _*But no actual in-game rule/crunch*_ such as "They can only be hit with silver or magic weapons."

(I'm getting images for all kinds  of cooooool watercolory representations of each, a la the Brian  Froud/Alan Lee _Faeries_ and _Gnome_ books...) 

ANYwho, here's that list:
*1. Dragon
2. Dwarf:* lore fitting Hill variety only
*3. Elf: *lore fitting High variety only 
*4. Fairyfolk
5. Goblinoid:* Goblin, Hobgoblin, and Bugbear
*6. Kobold
7. Lycanthrope:* Wererat and Werewolf only
*8. Ogre
9. Orc
10. Pegusi
11. Troll
12. "The Undead":* skeletons, zombies and ghosts only.
*13. Unicorn*

So, combined/intermingled, a Player's book "Creature" section totals under 30 (28) entries...and some of those entries are truncated compared to what the DM has access to (cave bears, sabertooth cats, additional undead and lycanthropes, etc.).

I'm just imagining those BLISSFUL DM moments when you describe a monster or it makes an attack, let's say a vampire for argument's sake, and the players' face go aghast in absolute abject HORROR shouting "HOLY $%@^!!! That's not in the book!!!!" and the DM gets to give that oh so deliciously subtle grin and whisper, "It's in mine."  BWAHAHAHAHA! <thunder crashes> 

Seems like a nice compromise to between "Don't let the player's see anything" and accommodate the "Makes sense to give the players info on things they might use, would know or have heard about." 

What do we think, gentlefolk?
--Steel Dragons


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## I'm A Banana (Aug 18, 2011)

Keep it simple, with categories.

Kobolds (include vermin and monstrous vermin)
Goblins (include hobgoblins, bugbears, wolves, and other "wicked wildlife")
Orcs (lump together various "barbaric/evil/underdark humanoids" into this camp)
Giants (many different environments)
Undead (from skeletons to vampires to zombies to wraiths)
Faeries (Unseelie, mostly)
Demons / Devils (A quick sampling of the hundreds available should do ya fine)
"Bad Guys" (Bandits, Necromancers, Cultists and the like)
Elementals (all sorts!)
Dragons (all sorts!)
Aberrations (mind flayers, aboleths, all those tentacle slimy things)
Oozes (all sorts!)

Those are your "antagonists." You also need creatures that aren't antagonists for the party to interact with -- from "seelie fey" through to exotic mounts, angels, genies, allied humanoids, and good dragons. You get more leeway here, since D&D has been kind of blah about "allied monsters" since it began, but including them as alternative treasure is not a bad place to start.


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## Lanefan (Aug 18, 2011)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Keep it simple, with categories.
> 
> Kobolds (include vermin and monstrous vermin)
> Goblins (include hobgoblins, bugbears, wolves, and other "wicked wildlife")
> ...



Well put.

As for the basic races that are intended to be played as PCs (Dwarf, Elf, Human, maybe Part-Orc, Hobbit, Gnome), the write-ups for those races would be in the PH in the character-generation section, so no need to repeat 'em in the monster section. (this has always struck me as odd about the 1e MM, that it lists the kindred races as monsters and essentially repeats what's in the PH in the rolling-up chapter)

To your basic monster categories list I'd add:

Birds and Avians (from wrens to ravens to rocs)
Constructs (basic golem types, to show they exist)
Dinosaurs (optional in any campaign but essential to have in the MM)
Elementals (a basic write-up, to show they exist)
Marine Life (fish, whales, sharks, mermaids, etc.)
Normal Animals (the usual suspects; and 'wolves' would go here instead of with Goblins)

Lan-"take a walk on the wild side"-efan


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## TheAuldGrump (Aug 18, 2011)

steeldragons said:


> And has anyone else noticed that all of the truly dangerous "Real World" creatures begin with a "S"? Why is that?
> 
> Anywho...what do we think?
> --Steel Dragons



Heh - the 'most dangerous' are Bison and Hippo... carnivores are scary, but aggressive herbivores are _dangerous!_

And of course mosquitoes - the spread of disease kills far more than you might expect....

The Auld Grump


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## Anselyn (Aug 18, 2011)

Lanefan said:


> To your basic monster categories list I'd add:
> 
> Birds and Avians (from wrens to ravens to rocs)
> Constructs (basic golem types, to show they exist)
> ...




Also, hybrids from the classical to the iconic D&Ders

Hybrids (centaur, gryphon, hippogrif, manticore, owlbear, pegasus, sphinx)


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## steeldragons (Aug 18, 2011)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Keep it simple, with categories.
> 
> Kobolds (include vermin and monstrous vermin)
> Goblins (include hobgoblins, bugbears, wolves, and other "wicked wildlife")
> ...






Lanefan said:


> Well put.
> 
> As for the basic races that are intended to be played as PCs (Dwarf, Elf, Human, maybe Part-Orc, Hobbit, Gnome), the write-ups for those races would be in the PH in the character-generation section, so no need to repeat 'em in the monster section. (this has always struck me as odd about the 1e MM, that it lists the kindred races as monsters and essentially repeats what's in the PH in the rolling-up chapter)
> 
> ...




Well, by this method, we very likely end up with more than 50 entries...unless we adjust the premise to be "50 categories" which I'm sure would be possible but overwhelming.

Are you making these suggestions with the thought to get more creatures crammed in or simply as an organizational preference?

Remember, the original point of this was to generate a diverse but workable chunk for a new DM to a game, not overwhelming waves of creatures within categories.

And what of the things that do not fit into any category? I would say you'd need at least 3 similar creatures to constitute a "category." Unless you make up things like "Winged Beasts" or "Mystical Mounts" or that sort of thing. But that's just me.

I'm not saying I am unwilling to sort the creatures out this way, simply that the idea of throwing every possible everything in the first beginning book of a starter set without consideration for the party level could be...too much.

To _that_ point, KM, I really don't think things like Aberrations, or even Demons/Angels ("outsiders" in general beyond the basic elementals)...are something one needs to get into at the very beginning.

There's a whole world for the DM and Players to become acquainted with before they start plane-jumping (or are high enough level to start conjuring/summoning these guys)...and at, say 1st through 3rd...hell, even 5th or 6th level, how many Demons or Mindflayers do you think you'd survive?

Nah. IMHO, those kinda creatures are definitely for later (higher leveled) sets or separate monster "expansion" material.

As for including the PC races as "monsters"...I've heard it bothers people before, Lanefan, but I have never really understood why.

Yes, there is some overlap with the general race description. But I always thought of it just as human PCs are considered unique individuals "above and beyond" their communities so are dwarf, elf, gnome and halfling "adventurers."

The Monster section entries would be more for societal organization and beliefs. Maybe some cool tidbits for DMs to throw in when a party comes across an elf stronghold or a gnomish town. If we stat out a typical Human Bandit, why_ wouldn't_ we stat a typical roving Dwarf? 

I also recall, in many modules, encountering groups of PC races as encounters (a dwarf warband on the march here, an elvin hunting party there). So, they kind of_ need_ to be statted out, don't they? Just like a group of goblins to be encountered in a raiding party or orcs or human bandits for that matter. 

To use in play, since the potential for conflict/combat is probably very real, shouldn't there be a "generic dwarf guy" on the books? A "dime a dozen" elf to throw in? As a DM, I certainly wouldn't want to have to generate every individual halfling in a scouting party as a PC.

That's just my take on that...

But back to mulling over the categorization things...I would not want to add in more monsters, since the stated purpose is a manageable chunk of beasties for a DM to work with in a "starter kit." And with that in mind...we have to think/look ahead at the same time so that we're not "giving the whole thing away" at the get go...gotta save some tougher/expanding things for the next "expert" set.  

Thoughts?
--Steel Dragons


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## Anselyn (Aug 18, 2011)

steeldragons said:


> But back to mulling over the categorization things...I would not want to add in more monsters, since the stated purpose is a manageable chunk of beasties for a DM to work with in a "starter kit." And with that in mind...we have to think/look ahead at the same time so that we're not "giving the whole thing away" at the get go...gotta save some tougher/expanding things for the next "expert" set.




Establish the categories to show the diversity of possibilities in the game and illustrate each category with a few (2-3) (double page spread?) for the starting point. It's then easy to see how to expand from that starting point.

Also, if you want modules to tun on/off in a campaign then you have a shoppingl ist of what to include. The "hybrids" I listed before a mostly obviously "mythological" if you want that hook. The puddings and oozes are D&D 70s gonzo that I can live without. (Also, being eaten by a black pudding has an odd resonance in the UK.)


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## steeldragons (Aug 18, 2011)

Alright...so here...we have an attempt at utilizing the categories as suggested above...there are are few, mostly very common/basic creatures, that defy categories. 

I did add in all 10 (5 chromatics, 5 metallics) dragons. Added in aquatic elves. But took Spectre and Vampire out of the undead listing...figuring they really are pretty tough critters for a starter kit.

Yes, I know. I know, dragons are tough critters too. But they're...well, they're dragons! Kinda have to have them in there.

Interesting that this breakdown actually gives us 101 individual entries! haha. (if I didn't miss anything/counting is correct)

 Animals
1.       *Alligator:* normal, crocodile, giant versions of each
2.       Bat: normal/swarm, giant, mobat
3.       * Bear:* black, cave, grizzly, polar
4.       Boar: normal, giant, devil
5.       *Cat:* domestic, lion, lynx, puma, sabertooth, tiger
6.       *Deer:* stag, elk, moose 
7.       *Dog:* domestic, hunting/hound, guard/mastiff, wild
8.       *Dolphin:* normal, telepathic
9.       *Elephant:* normal, mammoth
10.    *Frog: *giant, poisonous, toad/giant and poisonous
11.   *Furry Woodland Creature:* Badger, Beaver, Ferret/Weasel, Fox, Otter, Rabbit/Hare, Squirrel (normal and giant versions of each, % chance to be intelligent/speaking.)
12.   *Herd Animal:* antelope, bison, camel, cow, sheep, wildebeest, yak, zebra
13.   *Horse:* draft, riding/light, war/heavy, wild
14.   *Rat:* normal, giant, swarm
15.   *Shark:* normal, giant
16.   *Snake:* poisonous, constrictor, two-headed (normal and giant versions of each.)
17.   * Turtle:* giant, giant snapping
18.   *Wolf:* normal, giant, winter

  Basilisk

  Birds & Avian Creatures 
1.       *Birds of Prey:* eagle, falcon, hawk, owl, raven, vulture, (normal and giant versions of each, % chance to be intelligent/speaking.)
2.       Griffon
3.       Harpy
4.       Pegusi

  Constructs
1.       Golem
1.1.    Crystal
1.2.    Flesh
1.3.    Iron
1.4.    Stone
1.5.    Wood

  Dragons
1.       Red
2.       Blue
3.       Black
4.       Green
5.       White
6.       Gold
7.       Silver
8.       Bronze
9.       Copper
10.   Brass

  Dwarf
1.       Hill
2.       Mountain
3.       Deep

  Elemental
1.       Air (medium, large and huge) and Sylphs
2.       Earth (medium, large and huge) and Gnomes
3.       Fire (medium, large and huge) and Salamanders
4.       Water (medium, large and huge) and Undines

  Elf
1.       Aquatic
2.       Grey
3.       High 
4.       Wood 
5.       Dark

  Faerie
1.       Brownie
2.       Pixie
3.       Sprite

  Giants
1.       Hill
2.       Frost
3.       Stone
4.       Wood (Ents/Treants)
5.       Fire
6.       Storm

  Goblins/Goblinoids
1.       Goblins
2.       Hobgoblins
3.       Bugbears

  Humans
1.       Bandit
2.       Berserker/Barbarian
3.       Cultist
4.       Necromancer
5.       Nomad/Tribesman
6.       Thug

  Insects 
*1.       **Ant:* giant, giant fire
*2.       *Beetle: giant fire, giant scarab, giant slicer
*3.       **Scorpion:* normal, giant
4.       *Spider:* poisonous, bola, tarantulas, wolf, large and giant versions for each

  Kobolds

  Lycanthropes
1.       Werecat (lion, tiger, panther)
2.       Werebear
3.       Wereboar
4.       Wererat
5.       Werewolf

  Manticore

  Medusa

  Monstrous Vermin
1.       Ankheg
2.       Carrion Crawler
3.       Rust Monster
4.       Stirge

  Ogre

  Ooze
1.       Gelatinous Cube
2.       Green Slime
3.       Grey Ooze

  Orc

  Sylvan Creatures
1.       Centaur
2.       Dryad
3.       Unicorn

  Troll


Umber Hulk


  Undead
1.    Shadow
2.     Skeleton
3.       Ghost
4.       Ghoul
5.       Wight
6.       Wraith
7.       Zombie


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 18, 2011)

I would start with defining essential categories and filling them with the most iconic choices that non-gamers would know, weighted toward lower levels for an introductory set, but with a smattering of higher level content for games that went to the highest possible level for the set, along with presenting the all-important "run away from high level threats" lesson.

Off the top of my head:

1) Evil humanoid raider (i.e. goblin, orc, ogre)
2) Dangerous normal animals (i.e. wolf, bear, snake)
3) Monstrous animals (i.e. dire rat, giant spider)
4) Folkloric monsters (i.e. chimera, hag)
5) Pop culture monsters (i.e. werewolf)
6) Undead (i.e. ghoul, skeleton, zombie)
7) Weird dungeon monsters (i.e. carrion crawler, owlbear)
8) Summoned monsters (i.e. earth elemental, a Type I demon)
9) A dragon (i.e. a red dragon)

That's 20, and would allow adventurers to encounters a good mix of monsters -- including a dragon in a dungeon, which really ought to be something they can get when they buy a box with both of those in the name -- with a note for the DM that player character races (I'd put humans, elves, dwarves and nothing else in the basic box) can serve as bandits and other antagonists and could, and arguably should be the primary antagonists in many games.

Absolutely stick it in the DM booklet, though. These guys should be surprises to newbie players -- I think most people remember the fun of figuring out what the hell it is they're facing, when everything is new. Preserving that for new gamers is important, IMO.


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## Traveon Wyvernspur (Aug 18, 2011)

Here's a quick suggestion, instead of labeling things as "monsters" we could just go with "NPC's" since that's what they all are and the DM runs them no matter if they are humanoid, mystical, avian, insect, animal, etc. So it wouldn't be a "MM" it'd be an "NPCM" or NPC Manual and then we'd get away from the label of it being a Monster Manual or Bestiary.

I like all the ideas so far and it's a cool topic to discuss.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 18, 2011)

Why would you want to get away from it being a bestiary? Shouldn't it be evocative and exciting for the new players?


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## Traveon Wyvernspur (Aug 18, 2011)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Why would you want to get away from it being a bestiary? Shouldn't it be evocative and exciting for the new players?




I'm just saying that not everything in the MM or bestiary is "beastly" or "monstrous" a lot of the creatures are very common and non-hostile. I'm actually thinking it might be nice to add in some generic BBEGs/villains/heroes to an NPC Manual which the DM could draw from.

To me the terms "monster" and "beast" do evoke the thoughts of the mystical/legendary monsters and beasts of lore, but it's not 100% accurate when you look through the books. Then if we want to get complicated we could do separate "splat" books for the different types of beasts/npc's/mystical creatures. Just my 2 coppers, because we all tend to "label" things even if inaccurate.

EDIT: Oh and yeah it should evoke the imagination, but if this is the stuff in the back of a DMG and not separate books, then just a nice section referenced as NPC's would be fine since the DM is looking at it and not the "players."


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## Crazy Jerome (Aug 18, 2011)

If you are willing to put some things in a player book--even if no crunch--then I wouldn't get too caught up in making the categories for the players a 1-1 match with the information for the DM.  There has to be some overlap, naturally, because it is a different slant on the same information.  But there is nothing wrong with having "demi-humans" and "monstrous humanoids" as categories for a one or two-page spread each in the player book, and then being more nuanced and formal in the DM information.

I think we get so caught up in being "correct" with information for the DM, that we forget sometime that a lot of players are not going to absorb this information fully.  And the ones that do need a few curveballs thrown at them, anyway.  In fact, for player information, I'd go so far as to list blantantly mutually exclusive information in each entry.


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## Lanefan (Aug 18, 2011)

On a design level, I wouldn't want to see a starter book if it meant you then had to go out and buy another book to get the rest.  I'd far rather see all the classic monsters (i.e. everything that's been mentioned in this thread and about 100 more besides) in one book and have done with it, to avoid doing what 4e did by releasing them in dribs and drabs.

If there really has to be a second release, it can pick up all the oddball stuff not covered in the basic book (e.g. Modrons), can expand on some categories that really have no end (e.g. Demons, Undead), and can expand on some categories to add monsters from non-Western cultures (e.g. Oriental Dragons, Aztec monsters, etc.).

A couple of classics I've not yet seen mentioned, though I could have missed them:

Leprechauns (great opponents for low-level types - category: Faerie)
Githyanki / -zerai (the other end of the spectrum - category: their own)

Lanefan


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## Traveon Wyvernspur (Aug 18, 2011)

Yeah [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] but like you said this is a "starter set" so these are mostly lower level type encounters, so in order to "expand" a bit you may want to put out more splat books for NPCs/monsters/beasts (especially if it's a business, you need to keep your fan base happy with new stuff). This could be for advanced players with more powerful monsters (i.e. MM3 in 4E).


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## Sammael (Aug 18, 2011)

Only fifty? Alright, here's my list:

Ankheg
Balor
Basilisk
Beholder
Bulette
Chimera
Cornugon
Death knight
Doppelganger
Drider
Drow
Ettin
Fire giant
Frost giant
Gargoyle
Giant spider
Hill giant
Hydra
Gelatinous cube
Ghoul
Githyanki
Goblin
Imp
Iron golem
Lich
Lizardfolk
Kobold
Kyton
Manticore
Mimic
Mind Flayer
Minotaur
Ogre
Orc
Otyugh
Owlbear
Pit Fiend
Purple worm
Red Dragon 
Rust Monster
Skeleton
Stirge
Stone golem
Succubus
Tarrasque
Vrock
Will'o'wisp
Winter wolf
Worg
Zombie

#51 is Quadrone Modron


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## Lanefan (Aug 19, 2011)

Traveon Wyvernspur said:


> Yeah [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] but like you said this is a "starter set" so these are mostly lower level type encounters, so in order to "expand" a bit you may want to put out more splat books for NPCs/monsters/beasts (especially if it's a business, you need to keep your fan base happy with new stuff). This could be for advanced players with more powerful monsters (i.e. MM3 in 4E).



You're right in that I'm arguing against myself a bit here, but I've come to really dislike splat books - particularly when their content should have been released with the main game.


			
				Sammael said:
			
		

> Alright, here's my list:
> ...
> 45. Tarrasque
> ...



In the starter set?  Man, you wear your Viking hat well! 

Lanefan


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## Sammael (Aug 19, 2011)

It all depends on the level at which you start


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## Wik (Aug 19, 2011)

I'm going to approach this from a different angle - I'm going to presume I'm making a monster list for beginner GMs who are not at all familiar with D&D or even roleplaying.  Ie, this is a list for BEGINNERS.  

So goodbye D&Disms.

My animal list is going to be limited to statblocks of things that PCs are going to fight.  So, let's say Tiger, Bear, War Dog, Wolf, Lion, Elephant, Horse, Alligator, Eagle, Giant Rat, Giant Insect, Viper, Shark, Wolverine, Dinosaur (various), Rhino, Komodo Dragon, Giant Snapping Turtle, Cougar/Jaguar, and Owl.

As for monsters, I want them to mostly be Beginner-esque, meaning relatively low-level.  And I don't want too much overlapping, so I don't need a bajillion varieties of orc/goblin/whatever.  But I also want it to handle as many plots as possible.  So, with only 20 slots, let's say Orc, Skeleton, Zombie, Dragon (small ones, and a bigger one that is still killable by lower-level PCs), Elemental, Goblin, Vampire, Ooze, Werewolf, Invisible Stalker-ish type monster, Demon (one or two types, maybe with a random features table), Treant, Ghost, Centaur, Fairy, Golem (iron, but aimed towards lower levels, maybe with a "weak spot"), Giant, ghoul, medusa, and doppleganger.

I think that list would handle a lot of low-level adventuring.  Especially if the connected game had a system that easily let the GM modify those monsters as he saw fit (3e did this rather well, and 4e has had some pretty good success with this, too).


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## Anselyn (Aug 19, 2011)

Wik said:


> So goodbye D&Disms.
> 
> My animal list is going to be limited to statblocks of things that PCs are going to fight. So, let's say Tiger, Bear, War Dog, Wolf, Lion, Elephant, Horse, Alligator, Eagle, Giant Rat, Giant Insect, Viper, Shark, Wolverine, Dinosaur (various), Rhino, Komodo Dragon, Giant Snapping Turtle, Cougar/Jaguar, and Owl.




Isn't it a D&Dism that when you go for a walk in the woods that tigers and bears rush out to attack you? Kobolds, yes. Owls, really?


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## Mark CMG (Aug 19, 2011)

Wik said:


> Golem (iron, but aimed towards lower levels, maybe with a "weak spot")





[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdgY9vgRcRw]The death of Talos - YouTube[/ame]


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## Wik (Aug 20, 2011)

Anselyn said:


> Isn't it a D&Dism that when you go for a walk in the woods that tigers and bears rush out to attack you? Kobolds, yes. Owls, really?




Ah, but you haven't read sword and sorcery, then.  Wolves and tigers and whatnot are the big baddies of those settings.  How many conan stories start with him running and hiding from wolves... only to fight bigger and badder monsters?

My real point is, though, that if you're going to stat up monsters at all, you should really only focus on monsters that are going to necessarily need statting.  I have never seen my game suffer from a lack of house cat stats.  

As for owls being in my list... have you SEEN an owl?  I saw one when I went camping, and those guys are huge.  I think I might actually prefer to be attacked by a kobold.


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## Shades of Green (Aug 20, 2011)

I'd say:

1) Aboleth
2) Ankheg
3) Ant
4) Bear
5) Boar
6) Brain Lasher
7) Bugbear
8) Bullywag
9) Cat
10) Centipede
11) Cockroach
12) Crocodile
13) Demon
14) Dog
15) Dragon
16) Dryad
17) Dwarf
18) Elephant
19) Elemental
20) Elf
21) Faerie
22) Ghost
23) Ghoul
24) Giant
25) Goblin
26) Golem
27) Lich
28) Lizard
29) Lizardfolk
30) Octopus
31) Ogre
32) Orc
33) Owl
34) Owlbear
35) Rusalka (AKA Siren)
36) Shark
37) Skeleton
38) Scorpion
39) Snake
40) Spider
41) Toad
42) Troll
43) Vampire
44) Unicorn
45) Wolf
46) Wraith
47) Zombie


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## Anselyn (Aug 20, 2011)

Wik said:


> Ah, but you haven't read sword and sorcery, then.  Wolves and tigers and whatnot are the big baddies of those settings.  How many conan stories start with him running and hiding from wolves... only to fight bigger and badder monsters?




Fair point



> As for owls being in my list... have you SEEN an owl?  I saw one when I went camping, and those guys are huge.  I think I might actually prefer to be attacked by a kobold.




But it's basically a ball of fluff with some sharp bits. It they were heavy they couldn't fly. You can stand with an Eagle Owl on your arm - I can't imagine the same for a kobold.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 20, 2011)

Anselyn said:


> You can stand with an Eagle Owl on your arm - I can't imagine the same for a kobold.



The kobold just cuts off your arm first.


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## Kaodi (Aug 20, 2011)

1. Angel, Astral Deva
2. Assassin Vine
3. Basilisk
4. Centaur
5. Chimera
6. Demon, Glabrezu
7. Demon, Succubus
8. Doppelganger
9. Dragon, Red
10. Elemental
11. Gargoyle
12. Genie, Djinni
13. Genie, Efreeti
14. Ghost
15. Ghoul
16. Giant, Cloud
17. Giant, Frost
18. Giant, Hill
19. Goblin
20. Golem, Flesh
21. Golem, Stone
22. Griffon
23. Hag, Green
24. Harpy
25. Hellhound
26. Homunculus
27. Hydra
28. Invisible Stalker
29. Kraken
30. Lich
31. Lycanthrope, Werewolf
32. Medusa
33. Merfolk
34. Minotaur
35. Mummy
36. Nightmare
37. Nymph
38. Ogre
39. Orc
40. Pegasus
41. Phoenix
42. Pixie
43. Purple Worm
44. Satyr
45. Shadow
46. Sphinx
47. Skeleton
48. Treant
49. Troll
50. Unicorn
51. Vampire
52. Worg
53. Wyvern
54. Zombie

Turned out to be more than I thought...


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## steeldragons (Aug 22, 2011)

Ok. After seeing the various entries and additional comments, here's where I am after some revision.

For a "Starter kit" (levels 1 to, let's say, 4) geared for new gamers,  specifically the DMs in whatever the "gamemaster" manual would be:
*
Bolded headings* would be "sections" of creatures with general lore  along with specific stats for multiple creatures within that  category/section/type...probably a full spread (or maybe 3 pages).


 1. Animal, Avian: eagle, falcon/hawk, owl, raven, vulture
 2. Animal, Herd: antelope, buffalo, camel, cattle, sheep, zebra
 3. Animal, Marine: dolphin, giant squid, shark
 4. Animal, Reptiles: alligator, frog/toad, lizard, snake, turtle
 5. Animal, Woodland: badger, beaver, deer, ferret, fox, otter, rabbit, squirrel
 6. Ant 

   7. Basilisk
8. Bat
9. Bear
      10. Boar

11. Cat: domestic, lion, lynx, panther, sabertooth, tiger
 12. Cockatrice

13. Dog: domestic, hunting, guard, wild 
14. Dolphin
 15. Doppleganger
*16. Dragon:* Gold, Red, White
17. Dwarf

*18. Elemental:* air (& sylph), earth (& gnome), fire (& salamander), water (& triton)
19. Elephant
20. Elf
*
21. F**aerie:* Brownie, Pixie, Redcap
*
22. Giant:* Hill, Frost, Tree (Ents/Treants), Stone
*23. Goblin:* Goblin, Hobgoblin, Bugbear
*24. Golem:* Crystal, Flesh, Iron
25. Griffon

26. Harpy
27. Horse: draft, riding/light, war/heavy, wild
*28. Human:* Bandit, Barbarian/Berserker, Cultist, Nomad/Tribesman, Street Thug

29. Kobold

30. Lizardman
*31. Lycanthrope:* Were-bear, boar, rat, wolf

32. Manticore
   33. Medusa
 34. Mimic
35. Minotaur

   36. Ogre
*37. Ooze:* Gelatinous Cube, Green Slime, Grey Ooze
38. Orc

39. Pegasus

40. Scorpion
41. Spider
*42. Sylvan Creatures:* Centaur, Dryad, Satyr

 43. Troll

44. Umber Hulk
*45. Undead:* skeleton, zombie, ghoul, shadow
46. Unicorn

47. Vermin:Beetle, Centipede, Rat
*48. Vermin, Monstrous:* Carrion Crawler, Rust Monster, Stirge
      [FONT=&quot]
49. Wolf[/FONT]
     50. Wyvern

This seems, to me, to be more than enough for many many different types  of adventures in a variety of environments and definitely a wide enough  spread to challenge (and/or overwhelm) at all starting levels without  simply having to make the encounter "10 giant rats instead of 5" for  those first few starting levels.

--SD


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## Mark CMG (Aug 23, 2011)

You might combine some of those under two "Insect" categories (and maybe expand a bit) including "Swarming" and "Giant."


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## TheAuldGrump (Aug 23, 2011)

I am glad to see stirges getting some love - at low levels they are the critters that worry me the most. Have since first I saw them in the way back when. 

The Auld Grump, and because they scare me, they also scare my players....


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## Sincubus (Feb 14, 2013)

Sorry for replying so late to this thread or reviving it, but I really love this kind of posts.
-
-
I would like the MONSTER manual to be somewhat different than earlier times.
-
I would not like .... in the monster manual.
- Real life animals are for their own animal compagnion book in my opinion, this leaves more space for the real monsters.
- Humans and other non-evil playable races have no use in a monster manual, they are better off in their own manual.
- Templates can be done in their own book, not in a monster manual.
- Good creatures (like angels, archons and other such creatures) aren't really monsters to begin with they are good and should be in their own book (book of allies)
- NO DRAGONSPAWN, really the worst and cheapest creatures ever.
- My most hated other creatures are Hill Giants, Hobgoblins and Hippogriffs so they aren't in my list, also not a big fan of Half Orcs and other half stuff.
-
-
I really hope to see the following creatures from D&D games Return 
- Aboleth (can't believe nobody mentioned them)
- Basilisk 
- Bat (Fire Bat + Sinister)
- Bear (Cave Bear = Same as Dire Bear + Owlbear)
- Beetle (Magical Bombardier Beetle + Deathwatch Beetle + Scarab Swarm)
- Dinosaurs: 
(Deinonychus for small predator)
(Tyrannosaurus for big predator, or maybe a Carnotaurus)
(Elasmosaurus or Tylosaurus for big sea predator)
(Pachycephalosaurus for big two legged agressive herbivore, I like them better than Triceratops)
(Ankylosaurus for tank)
(Pteranodon for flying reptile)
- Beholder (+ Gauth)
- Boar (Razorback + New magical boar)
- Bulette
- Carrion Crawler (Maybe a Carrion Moth upgrade)
- Chimera
- Chokers (Stronger and Weaker version)
- Chuul
- Crocodile (Aztek Crocodile Monster + Deinosuchus)
- Cyclops (multiple versions)
- Dark Creeper + Dark Stalker
- Death Knight
- Demon (Balor, Glabrezu, Hezrou, Vrock, Marilith, Babau, Succubus, Bebilith, Yochlol, Shadow Demon)
- Devil (Hamatula, Osyluth, Imp, Barbazu, Gelugon, Pit Fiend, Cornugon, Erinyes, Kyton, Lemure)
- Destrachan
- Devourer
- Mohrg (not being a devourer)
- Displacer Beast
- Doppelganger
- Dragons (I really hate Blue and Green dragons, so I rather see: Red Dragon, White Dragon, Black Dragon, Purple Dragon, Brown Dragon)
- Drider
- Drow
- Dryad (evil version)
- Genie (Djinn, Efreet, Dao & Marid)
- Elemental (Fire, Water, Earth and Air)
- Ettercap (+ Vermin Lord)
- Ettin
- Gargoyle (+ Margoyle & Water Gargoyle)
- Ghost (Spectre, Poltergeist, Wraith & Banshee)
- Ghoul (+ Ghast & Lacedon)
- Giant (Fire Giant, Frost Giant, Stone Giant, Evil Storm Giant and maybe Death Giant)
- Gibbering Mouther
- Githyanki (I don't care for the Githzerai)
- Gnoll (use bones as tools and weapons to make them different from other feral races)
- Goblin (Bugbear, Barghest & Normal Goblins, maybe also Blue or Norker)
- Golem (Stone, Iron, Bone & Flesh, I think Bone is a much better golem choice than Clay Golem, maybe some Adamantine Golem and Coral Golem Too)
- Gorgon
- Hag (Sea Hag, Night Hag & Annis Hag)
- Harpy (+ Siren)
- Hook Horror
- Hounds (Shadow Mastiff, Hell Hound & Yeth Hound)
- Hydra (some versions)
- Lizardfolk (Kobold, Lizardman, Troglodyte, Drakkoth)
- Kuo Toa (Some versions like the Leviathan)
- Lamia (4th edition version)
- Lycanthrope (Wererat, Werewolf, Wereboar)
- Manticore
- Medusa (+ Male)
- Mind Flayer (+ Elder Brain)
- Minotaur (feral creatures, not sissy WOW race based)
- Mummy (Humanoid Mummy, Skirr and Crawling Apocalypse)
- Naga (Dark Naga & Spirit Naga)
- Nightmare
- Nightshade (Nightcrawler, Nightwing, Nightwalker)
- Ogre (+ Ogre Magi)
- Ooze (Gelatinous Cube, Bloodrot, Slithering Tracker, Green Slime & Black Pudding)
- Orc
- Otyugh
- Purple Worm
- Quickling (just as powerful as in 4th edition)
- Rakshasa (+ Noble)
- Rat (Rat King + Dire Rat)
- Roc (Roc + Phoenix + Thunderbird)
- Roper
- Sahuagin
- Salamander (+ Noble)
- Satyr
- Scorpion (Sand Walker + Hellstinger)
- Shambling Mound (+ Tendriculos)
- Skeleton (some versions, like the Boneyard and Gashadokuro)
- Snake (Giant Anaconda + Amphisbaena)
- Sphinx (not the subtypes, just one female sphinx)
- Spider (Phase Spider + Tomb Spider + Trapdoor Spider or Web Casting Spider)
- Stirge
- Treant (Dark versions like Quickwood and Hangman Treant)
- Troll (multiple versions like Frost Troll and Scrag)
- Umber Hulk
- Unicorn (Dark versions like Karkadann and Phooka)
- Vampire (Vetala + Nosferatu)
- Wight (Boneclaw abilities + insane)
- Wolf (Worg + Winter Wolf)
- Wyvern
- Yuan Ti (abomination and others)
- Zombies (some types)
- Ankheg
- Ant (Antlion + Fire Ant, I know antlions are different animals but they suit in with ants pretty well)
- Behir
- Bullywug
- Centaur (evil versions like Armanite)
- Centipede (Megapede + Some Magical Centipede)
- Cockatrice
- Couatl (evil versions)
- Duergar
- Gray Render (add in the behavior of the Rampager)
- Myconid (some variants + some other fungoids like Ascomoid, Violet Fungus, Phycomid and Phantom Fungus)
- Remorhaz
- Rust Monster
- Shark (Megalodon + Another magical Shark)
- Spriggan (redcap, one variant should be able to grow in size)
- Steel Predator (with abilities from the Metal Master)
- Tiger (Kirre + Smilodon)
- Will o Wisp
- Ape (Su Monster + Girallon)
- Cloaker
- Derro (with behavior and blindness of the Grimlock)
- Toad or and Frog (Poisonarrow Frog + Spawn Toad)
- Gremlin
- Howler (same as the 4th edition howler + features from Krenshar)
- Intellect Devourer (+ Brain Collector)
- Kraken
- Meazel (or Marrash, something with diseases)
- Mimic (Trap Mimic, Item Mimic and House Mimic)
- Rot Grubs
- Scarecrow
- Thri Kreen
-
-
Some others from before 4th edition D&D:
- Aurumvorax
- Deepspawn
- Peryton
- Crimson Death
- Morkoth
- Invisible Stalker
- Wasps (Spider Eaters + Hellwasp Swarm)
- Mantis (some versions)
- Snail/Slug (Metalmaster + Flail Snail)
- Yellow Musk Creeper
- Shocker Lizards
- Crysmal
- Vargouille 
- Stinger (scorpionman)
- Dragon Turtle
- Kelpie
- Vegepygmy
- Crab (Carcinos + some other magical crab)

That would make a good monster manual for me personally, these are all deserving to be called MONSTER, unlike horses, angels and humans.


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## Mark CMG (Mar 23, 2013)

Any more new thoughts on this with the playtest well underway?


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## steeldragons (Mar 26, 2013)

Mark CMG said:


> Any more new thoughts on this with the playtest well underway?




Thanks for the thread necro!

Good question. I'm curious about this too.

Not having any playtest packets, myself, how close [or far] did we get with our list?

Are the monster lists they're revealing just including everything/100's of monsters?  

All comments appreciated (or new lists for anyone who wants to join in, feel free!)


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Apr 3, 2013)

I've actually been re-reading this thread recently; my kid is clearly heading toward RPG play in the near future, thanks to our Dungeon games and variants (different maps, the kid has been asking for harder levels to be added, new monsters, etc.).

Right now, I'm torn between just grabbing the BD&D PDF from RPGNow and making my own monster list instead, either for kid-slanted Dagger or C&C.

I still think the essential monster list can be very, very short and focused, as opposed to many of the more all-encompassing lists in this thread.


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## steeldragons (Apr 3, 2013)

Well, I suppose the only advice is do you _want_ to make up your own/include some new monsters (or at least those not included in the BD&D list)? If so go for it.

What would your own "very, very short and focused" list include? What would you like to have that the BD&D list doesn't?


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Apr 3, 2013)

My 2011 list from this thread still looks pretty good, two years on:



Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> I would start with defining essential categories and filling them with the most iconic choices that non-gamers would know, weighted toward lower levels for an introductory set, but with a smattering of higher level content for games that went to the highest possible level for the set, along with presenting the all-important "run away from high level threats" lesson.
> 
> 1) Evil humanoid raider (i.e. goblin, orc, ogre)
> 2) Dangerous normal animals (i.e. wolf, bear, snake)
> ...



I might add kobolds, because I love kobolds, or I might swap in some sort of frog/fish-man, because little froggy guys are hilarious (see WoW, EverQuest, the Muppet Show). But this is pretty close to perfect for me.


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## GMMichael (Apr 14, 2013)

steeldragons said:


> 1. Animal, Avian: eagle, falcon/hawk, owl, raven, vulture
> 2. Animal, Herd: antelope, buffalo, camel, cattle, sheep, zebra
> 3. Animal, Marine: dolphin, giant squid, shark
> 4. Animal, Reptiles: alligator, frog/toad, lizard, snake, turtle
> ...




No hobbits or gnomes?  Nasty buggers.

Dwarves and elves deserve just as much expounding as humans and animals.

Dwarves: Deep miner, righteous cleric, drunken ruffian.

Elves: wood elf archer, grey magician, saboteur.

Then there's the dark elves.  And the red caps (supernatural dwarves)...


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## steeldragons (Apr 14, 2013)

Well, I use redcaps as their folkloric origins, that is to say dark-faye goblins lookin' to kill things and soak their caps in their blood.

You're correct that there should be various types of elf and dwarf NPCs to encounter, I suppose. Though for a Beginner/Starter kit, I'm not interested in introducing the wood/high/grey/dark elves all at once. Rather, "Here's what 'the' elves are like" which would be 1) the old school definition of a "high" elf  and 2) the type of elves that beginner PCs can play a.k.a. the most populace/commonly encountered kind of elves. Wood elves, Dark elves, etc...are not necessary right off the bat and can easily all be introduced in later material, imho.

I was under the impression that gnomes and halflings were on that list...maybe I'm recalling wrong. Or I made the executive decision, in the interest of keeping the list to...what was it 50?...that they weren't necessary out the gate and could be introduced as player races in at a later time...That would make sense, to me, for gnomes. Halflings though, you're right, should definitely be on that list.


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## Li Shenron (Apr 14, 2013)

Nice little game 



steeldragons said:


> So, let's say, 20 "normal" animals (varieties may be included as a single entry. i.e. "Cat" could include domestic, puma, tiger, etc... and giant/dire versions of each. So it would only count as 1.)




I don't think I'd go as far as 20...

Wolf
Bear
Lion
Tiger
Crocodyle
Shark
Giant octopus
Giant constrictor snake
Giant poisonous snake
Giant spider



steeldragons said:


> ...and, let's start with 20 "monsters"/magical/not-real-world creatures. Again, variants of types (different dragons, for example) could all be included as a single entry.




Orc
Goblin
Troll
Hill giant
Skeleton
Zombie
Mummy
Ghost
Rust monster
Fire elemental
Gelatinous cube
Stone golem
Imp
Gargoyle
Minotaur
Drow
Werewolf
Vampire
Beholder
Red dragon


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