# History, Mythology, Art and RPGs



## Galloglaich

Forked from:  Mundane vs. Fantastical 

One argument I have heard many, many times from people who don't like low fantasy, is that they don't want a boring game about some peasant who has fleas and dies of the plague anonymously at age 27.  They want to be a hero, someone remarkable, someone who transcended the mundane.  Most of all they don't want to be anything like reality, which for some of us is like the life of Dilbert.  We don't want to play Dilbert in the Dungeon.

Well, if you prefer high fantasy that is ok, but as someone who enjoys history, I wanted to point out that there are rather quite a few remarkable real people from history who had adventures seldom matched in any Fantasy Novel, DnD game, or all the WoW games ever played, and they were a long way from Dilbert.  In fact, many of the people on this list were IMO greater warriors than Conan, wiser than King Arthur, and more ruthless and intrepid than Elric.  

In my opinion at least.  Here are just a few examples from Europe and the Middle East:

*Warriors, Bandits, Pirates, Rebels, Explorers, Mercenaries, Conquerors*
  These are the ‘B’ players, most are not household names (at least in the US) though some are quite well known in their own parts of the world.  Not kings or emperors in most cases, but people from the middle or even lower ranks of society who rose to achieve greatness.  I put an estimated alignment next to each entry, for greatness in this context does not necessarily equate with virtue, so if you are looking for someone you might sympathize with or find interesting, maybe that will help.  Some of these people were good, some are thoroughly evil, most are neither or both.
  .
  Criteria: Traveled to exotic lands, lived a life of adventure, conquered great nations, triumphed against impossible odds, lived a long time despite constant danger, displayed multiple talents, demonstrated phenomenal skill as a warrior or military leader (often clearly the best in their generation), showed remarkable pluck, humor and / or creativity, broke tradition and pioneered new innovations.

  Most important: regardless of where they started in life, these people transcended expectations and the limitations of their position, and went far beyond the achievements of their peers.

*Artemisia of Halicarnassus* (aka Artemisia I of Caria), 5th Century BC          N
              Greek queen, tyrant, naval commander, political advisor.  A female pirate   queen who fought on the wrong side of the battle of Salamis and escaped to fight another day
Artemisia I of Caria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Xenophon*, 431-355 BC          (96 years old)                                                   LN
  Greek soldier, mercenary, author, historian, tactician, philosopher, and horse whisperer.  Fought his way out of deepest Persia with 10,000 Greek Mercenaries and lived to tell the tale  
Xenophon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Viriathus the Lusitani*, 180 BC – 139 BC      (59 years old)                           CG
              Celtic warrior, guerilla leader, rebel - confounder of the Roman Empire

Viriathus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Spartacus*, 120 BC – 70 BC                           (50 years old)                           CG
              Roman gladiator, slave, rebel, bandit, warrior - pain the Roman Empires ass

Spartacus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Josephus* (aka Flavius Josephus), 37 – 100 AD           (63 years old)               LN
              Hebrew guerilla, warrior, Roman collaborator, author, historian, math whiz
Josephus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Charles Martel*, 686 – 741 AD                                  (55 years old)               NG
              Frankish aristocrat, warlord, general
Charles Martel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  "_And in the shock of the battle the men of the North seemed like a sea that cannot be moved. Firmly they stood, one close to another, forming as it were a bulwark of ice; and with great blows of their swords they hewed down the Arabs. Drawn up in a band around their chief, the people of the Austrasians [sic] carried all before them. Their tireless hands drove their swords down to the breasts of the foe_."

*Pelayo of Asturias*, 690-737 AD                                (47 years old)               LN
              Visigoth nobleman, Spanish guerilla leader, founder of the Kingdom of   Asturias
Pelayo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Bjorn Ironside* (aka _Björn Järnsida_ ), 9th Century AD                                    CN
              Swedish chieftain / jarl, resourceful pirate leader, Viking, warrior
BjÃ¶rn Ironside - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Gange-Rolf* (aka Rollo of Normandy, aka Ganger Rolf, aka _Hrólfr Rögnvaldsson_ and 
_Göngu-Hrólfr_), 860-932 AD                           (72 years old)               N
              Norse Viking, pirate, bandit, soldier, duke of Rouen, founder of Normandy
Rollo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Egil Skallagrimsson*, 910-990 AD                             (80 years old)               CN / CE
              Norse Viking, poet, sorcerer, skald, pirate, duelist
Egill SkallagrÃmsson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  “_Egil is the great anti-hero of Icelandic literature, known for breaking his oaths, killing for trifles, and practicing sorcery. Many historians consider Egil to be one of the deadliest men that ever lived in bladed combat- several accounts tell of him slaughtering as many as 20 or more armed men single-handedly, and even dispatching a feared berserker with relative ease. In spite of this, he was considered a great healer, and his saga tells of him curing a girl who had been ill for quite some time where all other efforts had proven futile_.”

*Doge Enrico Dandolo*, 1107-1205 AD                      (98 years old)               N / CE
  Blind Doge (ruler) of Venice, crusader, military adventurer, conqueror of Byzantium at age 90
Enrico Dandolo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*William Marshal*, 1146-1219 AD                              (73 years old)               CN
              English soldier, knight, first earl of Pembroke     
William Marshal, 1st Earl of Pembroke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Alexander Nevsky*, 1220-1263 AD                           (43 years old)               LN
              Swedish –Russian prince, warlord, soldier, and statesman
Alexander Nevsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Roger de Flor *(Aka Roger von Blum),1266-1306 AD  (40 years old)            CN
              German templar, pirate, Byzantine Caesar, leader of the Catalan Grand Company
Roger de Flor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*James Douglas* (aka “The Black Douglas”), 1286- 1330 AD              CN
              Scottish knight, guerilla, rebel, and bandit (44 years old)
Earl of Douglas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Jeanne De Clisson *                                                                               CN
Female Pirate and Breton rebel, scourge of the French Navy
"Jeanne de Clisson, enraged and bewildered over her husband's execution, swore revenge on the King, and Charles de Blois in particular. She sold off the remnants of the Clisson lands to raise money, whereupon she bought three warships, and the aid of many of the lords and people of Brittany to ensure their independence. 
  The ships that Clisson purchased were painted all black on her command, and the sails dyed red. The 'Black Fleet' took to the waters and began hunting down and destroying the ships of King Philip VI, and were merciless with the crews. But Clisson would always leave two or three of Philip's sailors alive, so that the message would get back to the King that the “Lioness of Brittany” had struck once again. Jeanne and her fleet also assisted in keeping the English Channel free of French warships, and it is very likely that as a privateer she had a hand in keeping supplies available to the English forces for the Battle of Crécy in 1346. When King Philip VI died in 1350, it was not the end to Jeanne's revenge. She continued to wreak havoc among French shipping, and it was reported that she took particular joy in hunting down and capturing the ships of French noblemen, as long as they were aboard. She would then personally behead the aristocrats with an axe, tossing their lifeless bodies overboard."
Jeanne de Clisson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Bertrand du Guesclin, *(aka ‘The Eagle of Brittany’)1320-1380 AD  NG
              Breton knight and French military commander (60 years old)
Bertrand du Guesclin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Sir John Hawkwood*, 1320-1394 AD (74 years old)                           NE
              English mercenary leader, condottieri, leader of the ‘White Company’
John Hawkwood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Jan Žižka*, 1360-1424 AD                              (64 years old)                           CG
              Czech soldier, Hussite military leader, military innovator and rebel
Jan Å½iÅ¾ka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Braccio da Montone*, 1368-1424 AD            (56 years old)                           LN
              Italian aristocrat, prince of Capua, condottieri, and military innovator
Braccio da Montone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*John Hunyadi,* 1387-1456 AD                       (58 years old)                           LG
  Vlach aristocrat, Capitan-general and regent of Hungary, War Leader and rebel
Omnipelagos.com ~ article "John Hunyadi"

*Skanderbeg* aka Gjergj Kastrioti, 1405-1468  (63 years old)               CG
              Albanian nobleman, Ottoman war leader, Albanian rebel, guerilla leader, warrior
Skanderbeg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Pierre Terrail, *aka seigneur de Bayard1473-1524     (51 years old)               LG
  French knight, military leader
Pierre Terrail, seigneur de Bayard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Grutte Pier* (aka *Pier Gerlofs Donia)*1480-1520       (40 years old)               CN
  Frisian Pirate, revolutionary
Pier Gerlofs Donia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Bernal Diaz*, 1492-1584 AD                          (92 years old)                           LN
              Spanish conquistador, soldier, author
Bernal DÃaz del Castillo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*John of Austria*, (aka Don Juan) 1547 – 1578 AD      (31 years old)               LG
              Austrian noble, admiral
John of Austria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*William Adams*, 1564-1620 AD         (56 years old)                                       LG
              English samurai, shipwright, pilot, navigator, sailor
William Adams (sailor) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Miyamoto Musashi*, 1584 – 1645 AD           (61 years old)                           CN
              Japanese samurai, duelist, fencing master, author, artist and philosopher
Miyamoto Musashi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Sir Kenelm Digby*, 1603-1665 AD    (62 years old)                                       LG
              English gentleman, privateer, scientist, alchemist, Catholic activist, author, duelist
Kenelm Digby - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Extraordinary Street Fight of Sir Kenelm Digby

*Henry Morgan*, 1635 – 1688 AD                               (53 years old)               CN
              English / Welsh soldier / sailor, pirate / Buccaneer / Privateer
Henry Morgan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Julie d'Aubigny* (aka “La Maupin”), 1670-1707 AD (37 years old)                 CN
  French aristocrat, swordswoman, duelist, storyteller, outlaw and opera singer
Julie d'Aubigny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://home.comcast.net/~brons/Maupin/LaMaupin.html

*Donald McBane*, circa 1670 ? -1730 AD ?                (60 years old)               CN
              Scottish adventurer, fencing master, soldier, pimp, tobacco spinner et al
History : The Expert Swordsman : The Royal Scots - The Royal Regiment

*Runners Up *

*Pytheas of Massalia*, 380-310 BC                (70 years old)               N
              Greek merchant, geographer, and explorer
Pytheas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
              ‘Discovered’ British Isles (‘pretania’) and “Thule”

*Aud the Deep-Minded*, 834-900 AD                                     LG
              Norse noblewoman, one of the founding settlers of Iceland
Aud the Deep-Minded - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Ahmad ibn Fadlan*, 10th Century AD                                       LN
              Arab writer, diplomat and traveler
Ahmad ibn Fadlan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Bohemond I* of Antioch, 1058 – 1111 AD                                           CN
              Norman Crusader, Prince of Taranto and later Antioch
Bohemond I of Antioch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Freydís Eiríksdóttir*, 11th Century AD                                                CE
              Norse explorer, warrior, pioneer, killer
FreydÃs EirÃksdÃ³ttir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Usamah ibn Munqidh*, 1095-1188                                                     LN
              Arab historian, politician, and diplomat
Usamah ibn Munqidh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*          Sir John Reresby*, 1634 – 1689 AD                                                   LN
              English English politician, author, duelist and gentleman
Sir John Reresby, 2nd Baronet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sir John Reresby: Seventeenth-Century Scrapper

*Villains and Monsters*
  Don’t think real life villains could be as scary as monsters in the fiend folio?  Check out a few of these historical characters.
*        [FONT=&quot]Sawney Bean                                                                                      NE[/FONT]*

Sawney Bean - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Gilles de Rais*, 1404-1440 AD                                                           NE
              French aristocrat, soldier, and serial killer.   
Gilles de Rais - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Cesare Borgia*, 1475-1507 AD                                                          LE
              Spanish-Italian aristocrat, condottiero (soldier), statesman, killer
Cesare Borgia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Stube Peter* (aka Peter Stump) (??- 1589 AD)                                    CE
              German serial killer and alleged werewolf                      
Peter Stumpp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Elizabeth **Báthory*, (aka “the Blood Countess”) 1560-1614 AD          CE
              Hungarian countess, sadist and serial killer
Elizabeth BÃ¡thory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*The Beast of Gevaudan         *1767                                                    CE
              Man eating wolf or werewolf
Beast of GÃ©vaudan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


*Semi - Historical *(we knew they existed, but most stories about them are really legends)

              Ragnar Lodbrok                                                                                  CN
Ragnar Lodbrok - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


*Lathgertha                                                                                       CN*
    Viking Shield -maiden and pirate, possible the coolest female    warrior who ever lived

"....With a measure of vitality at odds with her tender frame, roused the mettle of the faltering soldiery by a splendid exhibition of bravery. She flew round the rear of the unprepared enemy in a circling maneuver and carried the panic which had been felt by the allies into the camp of their adversaries". 
    Ragnar’s Saga 

Lathgertha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


*Semi - Mythological / Quasi- Historical figures*

              William Tell, 14th Century
              Swiss archer, rebel, guerilla leader
William Tell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

              Hiawatha, 15th Century AD                                                                  LG
              Iroquois chieftain, warrior, statesman, and orator
Hiawatha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

              Sawney Bean, 16th Century AD                                                            CE
              Scottish bandit and cannibal
Sawney Bean - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*A Few Historical Alchemists and Wizards*

(I just got started on these, this is only a tiny random sampling mostly some Arab and Persian alchemist I'd been researching, there are several dozen fascinating characters from the European renaissance alone)

*Archimedes of Syracuse* 287-212 BC                                                           LG
Archimedes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Heron of Alexandria*  10- 70 AD                                                                   LN
Hero of Alexandria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Jabir Ibn Hayyan*, 721 – 815 AD                                                                   LG
  Persian alchemist, pharmacist, physician, astronomer, physicist and philosopher, known as ‘Geber’ in the West.
Geber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Al Kindi*, 801-873 AD                                                                                    LN
  Arab scientist, philosopher, mathematician, physician, and musician, also known by the Latinised version of his name *Alkindus* to the Western world. 
Al-Kindi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  Al-Kindi was the first of the Muslim peripatetic philosophers, and is best known for his efforts to introduce philosophy to the Arab world

*Al Razi*, 865-925 AD                                                                                      LN
              Persian Alchemist and Scholar
Muhammad ibn Zakariya ar-Razi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Avicenna*, (aka *Ibn Sina* aka “ibn Abd Allāh ibn Sīnā”)980-1037 AD                LG
  Persian polymath and the foremost physician and Islamic philosopher of his time. He was also an astronomer, chemist, geologist, Hafiz, logician, mathematician, physicist, poet, psychologist, scientist, Sheikh, soldier, statesman and Islamic theologian.
Avicenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Ibn Rushd, *1126-1198                                                                                   LG
              Moorish philosopher and physician
Averroes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Hassan I Sabbah* 1031-1141 AD                                                                   CN (CE?)
              Persian Assassin Cult leader and founder of the Ismaili Shia sect of Islam
Hassan-i Sabbah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*[FONT=&quot]Omar Khayyám [/FONT][FONT=&quot]1048-1131 AD                                                                     CG[/FONT]*
Persian poet, mathematician, philosopher and astronomer                      
Omar KhayyÃ¡m - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Judah Loew ben Bezalel*, (aka “the Maharal of Prague*”*) 1529-1605 AD       LG
              Jewish rabbi, philosopher, mystic, Talmudic scholar and creator of the Golem
Judah Loew ben Bezalel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Giodorno Bruno *1558 - 1600                                                          C?
Giordano Bruno - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
           Italian.  Either a subtle philosopher or a heretical demon worshiper, depending on who you believe.  Burned at the stake for writing among other works, the infamous "De Umbris Idearum" (aka 'Shadow of Ideas') and _Lo Spaccio de la Bestia Trionfante_ (_The Expulsion of the Triumphant Beast_, 1584) and _De gl' Heroici Furori_ (_On Heroic Frenzies_, 1585).


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## Herremann the Wise

All I can say is... wow.

What a fantastic collection - I'm going to really enjoy going through this. So many ideas!!!

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise


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## Irda Ranger

Whoa.

Bookmarked.


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## Fallen Seraph

If I could add to this list: 

*Gráinne Ní Mháille *(called Grace O'Malley by the English and also called "The Sea Queen Of Connaught"), 1530 – 1603 AD (73 years old) CG/CN (Depends who you talk too)
Irish Pirate, Noble, Mother, Well Educated, Spoke to Queen Elizabeth the I
Grace O'Malley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Galloglaich

Fallen Seraph said:


> If I could add to this list:
> 
> *Gráinne Ní Mháille *(called Grace O'Malley by the English and also called "The Sea Queen Of Connaught"), 1530 – 1603 AD (73 years old) CG/CN (Depends who you talk too)
> Irish Pirate, Noble, Mother, Well Educated, Spoke to Queen Elizabeth the I
> Grace O'Malley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Yeah thats a good one... I added her to my own list thanks.  

G.


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## vagabundo

Wow, excellent.

History always has more fantastical stories anyway.


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## Jürgen Hubert

I'm bookmarking this just in case I run out of material to add to the Arcana Wiki...


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## GlaziusF

To offer a counterpoint, take Kurt Buseik, and his comic, "Astro City". In the prelude to one of the collections, he says that people often write him, praising his comic for how realistic it is. And then he says, basically, "realistic? It's got shapechanging aliens and a giant ice kingdom full of trolls!" And it does. But what makes people say that is that, unlike most superhero comics, the people in Astro City are aware their world has heroes in it. Mr. Fantastic is allowed to cure cancer, but people also write letters to the editor complaining that local heroes jetted off to prevent the world from exploding when there's a serial murderer on the loose in their neighborhood, and don't they care?

Or, put a different way, "the difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to be believable". The problem with overfantasy is not that it's fiction, but that it's unbelievable.


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## Mallus

Thanks for the awesome list. 

I'm sure I'll mine it for future NPC's details, though I'll probably replace the actual personages of historical importance with talking dinosaurs or elven samurai wielding glass katanae...

(lilies were made to gild, weren't they?)


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## Raven Crowking

Bookmarked.  Excellent post.


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## Galloglaich

GlaziusF said:


> To offer a counterpoint, take Kurt Buseik, and his comic, "Astro City". In the prelude to one of the collections, he says that people often write him, praising his comic for how realistic it is. And then he says, basically, "realistic? It's got shapechanging aliens and a giant ice kingdom full of trolls!" And it does. But what makes people say that is that, unlike most superhero comics, the people in Astro City are aware their world has heroes in it. Mr. Fantastic is allowed to cure cancer, but people also write letters to the editor complaining that local heroes jetted off to prevent the world from exploding when there's a serial murderer on the loose in their neighborhood, and don't they care?
> 
> Or, put a different way, "the difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to be believable". The problem with overfantasy is not that it's fiction, but that it's unbelievable.




I think what you are talking about is verisimilitude, which is not the same thing as realism. It's more a kind of internal consistency. Thats what you really want in either a story or a game.

The problem with the general inflation of fantastic elements making dinner into "all sugar, no meat" is tied to another problem, of increasingly derivitive fantastic notions which have no internal consistency.

I try to explain this with cartoons sometimes. If you are old enough you may remember three of my favorites: Johnny Quest, Bullwinkle and Buggs Bunny. Johnny Quest was the archetypal 'realistic' action / sci fi cartoon, Bullwinkle and Buggs Bunny were purely fantastic and satirical. To me both types had excellent verisimilitude. While Johnny Quest was more realistic than the other two, it regularly introduced fantastic elements, but which were logically integrated into the marginally plausible world they had created, which had it's own logical consistency and a certain satisfying verisimilitude. like *Call of Cthulhu* or something like that. 

Buggs Bunny or Bullwinkle on the other hand are utterly fantastic. The physics, the talking animals, the very appearance of the world is just wacky. And yet it also has a certain verisimilitude. It has it's own internal logic, you know when Yosemite Sam blows up a keg of gunpowder he is only going to end up with a black face and and blown up hat, not ruptured internal organs. And we are fine with that, in fact it's what makes it fun, one of the most delightful cartoons ever made IMO. I would liken these cartoons to a game like *Paranoia* or *Kobolds Ate my baby*, which is over the top silly but tons of fun. Their sense of humor and satirical dialogue was reflective of real life people, politics, events, etc. The con artistry and hucksterism of foghorn leghorn, the lechery of pepe le pew, are themes we can recognize from life. Thats why we relate to them so much, thats why these particular cartoons stand up so well in terms of modern viewers (despite being made as far back as the 1940s) and older (adult) viewers.

Contrast this with the lesser imitators of some of the originals, derivitive and formulaic (some of the later Hana Barbara stuff ... anybody remember _Frankenstein, Jr. and The Impossibles_, _Shazzan_, _Birdman and the Galaxy Trio_, _Moby Dick and the Mighty Mightor_, _Young Samson and Goliath_, _The Herculoids_ or etc.).  That I think is kind of analagous to what has happened with some RPGs.

G.


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## GlaziusF

Galloglaich said:


> I think what you are talking about is verisimilitude, which is not the same thing as realism. It's more a kind of internal consistency. Thats what you really want in either a story or a game.
> 
> The problem with the general inflation of fantastic elements making dinner into "all sugar, no meat" is tied to another problem, of increasingly derivitive fantastic notions which have no internal consistency.




So you agree with me that it's more a problem of consistency. 

But even for "realism", consistency is still a problem. I mean, consider a hippie stockbroker, if you even can. Hippies are real. Stockbrokers are real. What's the problem? They're not consistent with each other.

Consistency is more entertaining than realism. This is why hearing an Italian film critic rant against "8 1/2" makes no sense in the modern era. He's absolutely apoplectic! Why, the film has _dream sequences_! They're shot in _sharp focus_ against _indistinct backgrounds_ with _high contrast_ and _no shadows_! There are _poor people_ played by _rich people_ and _rich people_ played by _poor people_! 

Originally these were all anathema to Italian cinema, which prided itself on its realism. Nowadays, do they even seem odd? No. That's because even if they aren't realistic, they're still entertaining.


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## Galloglaich

GlaziusF said:


> So you agree with me that it's more a problem of consistency.
> 
> But even for "realism", consistency is still a problem. I mean, consider a hippie stockbroker, if you even can. Hippies are real. Stockbrokers are real. What's the problem? They're not consistent with each other.
> 
> Consistency is more entertaining than realism. This is why hearing an Italian film critic rant against "8 1/2" makes no sense in the modern era. He's absolutely apoplectic! Why, the film has _dream sequences_! They're shot in _sharp focus_ against _indistinct backgrounds_ with _high contrast_ and _no shadows_! There are _poor people_ played by _rich people_ and _rich people_ played by _poor people_!
> 
> Originally these were all anathema to Italian cinema, which prided itself on its realism. Nowadays, do they even seem odd? No. That's because even if they aren't realistic, they're still entertaining.




The thing is, it's often (usually?) the link to reality at some level which makes the verisimilitude possible.

For example, I think Fellinis later films are very overrated. Yes it's good to break stifiling norms when they are strangling creativity, but it gets a lot harder to make something which actually works on an organic level. Fellini was ground breaking, innovative, his early films were brilliant, but who wants to watch "Satyricon" today? When it comes to Italian directors from the 60's, I personally like Sergeo Leone or Dario Argento a lot better. 

Give me a Clint Eastwood Spaghetti Western or a viscerally realistic Argento horror fantasy over some abstract art film done to make a point any day of the week.

More to the point, if you want something truly unwatchable, think of all the hippy films which were trying to imitate the innovative camera tricks of Fellini, Godard et all that came throughout the late 60's and 70's. Ever try to watch one of those psychadelic cinematic creations recently? To me that is analagous to where some fantasy and RPG 'culture' has gone to. 

The films with the most lasting impact IMO are the ones that were grounded in reality in at least some significant ways.

G.


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## Mallus

Galloglaich said:


> Give me a Clint Eastwood Spaghetti Western or a viscerally realistic Argento horror fantasy over some abstract art film done to make a point any day of the week.



I like Leone and Argento better than Fellini too, but tell me _Suspira_ doesn't qualify as an "abstract art film", albeit one with stabbing and witches. The last time my wife and I watched it we decided it was the most frightening film about interior design ever made.  



> The films with the most lasting impact IMO are the ones that were grounded in reality in at least some significant ways.



The comparison between non-narrative films and certain, newer RPG's is a pretty weak one. You're comparing films with an unorthodox structure (ie, they don't really tell a traditional linear, literal story), to RPG's that *do[/i] have an orthodox structure (ie, 4e is still about dungeon-delving, killing things, and taking their stuff) but more outlandish trappings (Dragoborn, Tieflings, laser-equipped electric sharks --oops, sorry, that's a reference to another thread I'm posting in).*


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## Galloglaich

Mallus said:


> I like Leone and Argento better than Fellini too, but tell me _Suspira_ doesn't qualify as an "abstract art film", albeit one with stabbing and witches. The last time my wife and I watched it we decided it was the most frightening film about interior design ever made.




But what made Suspiria famous fairly or unfairly, was not the interior design, but the realistic (if bizarre) extreme violence particularly of the first murder.   This is what I mean by how the anchor in the real world can allow the fantasy to take flight more effectively.



> The comparison between non-narrative films and certain, newer RPG's is a pretty weak one. You're comparing films with an unorthodox structure (ie, they don't really tell a traditional linear, literal story), to RPG's that *do* have an orthodox structure (ie, 4e is still about dungeon-delving, killing things, and taking their stuff) but more outlandish trappings (Dragoborn, Tieflings, laser-equipped electric sharks --oops, sorry, that's a reference to another thread I'm posting in).




I'm not talking about the structure so much as the stylistic techniques, and I'm not talking about the original art films, which you could argue were worth watching and still are, to their many hippy imitators of the 70s etc. which most people would like to forget about.

Similarly to a lot of the really derivitive formulaic slasher movies of the 80's, or to my original analogy, the later Hana Barbara cartoons, like say, Birdman and the Galaxy Trio, which I've never seen that I can remember, but from reading the wiki on it I suspect a laser shark or lightning scorpion would fit well.

G.


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## Galloglaich

Anyway, another major area where RPG's have veered away from an interesting reality is martial arts, specifically European martial arts which somewhat amazingly, tens of thousands of people who spend their weekends pretending to be knights and paladins, swashbucking pirates and "cunninge thieves" have never even heard of.  Our characters wield swords and spears and quarter staves but most of us have absolutely no idea what a sword or a spear or a quarter staff was really like let alone how they were used.

The rediscovery of Historical European Martial Arts first began to slowly percolate into modern consciousness back in the 1990s, today it is a booming world-wide phenomenon.  The sword-fighting techniques written down in books as far back as the 1300s are extremeley effective and are now pretty well understood, though we are still only scratching the surface.

Perhaps more surprisingly for many people, HEMA as it's now known has become a respected martial art, widely understood to be every bit as lethal as anything ever taught to a samurai.

Gary Gygax did some fairly good research on weapons back around the time he wrote the DmG but nobody back then really understood how sword fighting actually worked and the attempts to make up realistic combat were mostly focused on highly complex wound systems which slowed the game to a crawl.  The closes thing most people ever saw to medieval combat was re-enactors at a Ren Faire or the SCA.... or a Monty Python movie.  Most gamers turned away from what they thought was the reality of medieval combat and never looked back, after all, everybody knows only the samurai had any real technique in how they fought, right?  Knights carried great clumsy ten pound "broadswords" they just hewed dents into each others armor with, right?

Well, no, thats wrong.  HEMA is extremely sophisticated and effective and it's now pretty well understood. There are about 30 major HEMA groups worldwide now, and I don't even know how many schools, dozens I believe. A few RPG enthusiasts know about this, but most don't.  So I think it's time I'd like to introduce DnD to the new reality..

To convey an idea of what is going on now, here are some videos depicting messer fighting techniques written down in books 500 years ago.  A messer was kind of like a medieval machete... a very common weapon you probably aren't very familiar with since they never have them in movies or video games, or RPG's.  The word actually means 'knife' but think of it as a kind of a light falchion, though some were quite large called "grossemessers" or "kriegmessers" and used with two-hands, something like a slightly butch katana.






You can see one depicted in this old woodcut, these men are in HEMA fencing guards.

Here is a photo of a real one from about 1520










And this is a similar weapon called a 'schwisersabel' used in Switzerland.


Anyway, these videeos deal with the smaller machete sized weapon.  This one is clever because they show you some quotes from the book, followed by the original drawings, then live action of HEMA fighters demonstrating the technique depicted.  It's all done nice and slow so you can see the technique.

[ame="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bWISsk0cy74&feature=related"]http://uk.youtube. com/watch? v=bWISsk0cy74&  feature=related[/ame]

Here is another video of similar messer techniques frrom some other books from the 15th and 16th centuries, executed a with little more speed and aggression.

[ame="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=38sVdx7nzhQ&feature=related"]http://uk.youtube. com/watch? v=38sVdx7nzhQ&  feature=related[/ame]


Finally here is a public demonstration of messer done in a more comical way for the amusement of a crowd, see if you can recognize any of the moves.  Folks here will like the music.

[ame=http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=csMrmpNVnZ8&feature=related]YouTube - Messerfechten[/ame]

HEMA also includes unarmed combat techniques which are called "Ringen" which means wrestling. 

And it's for real.  Here is a video from a HEMA group in poland.
[ame=http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xfuMYqfmACM&feature=related]YouTube - Medieval Wrestling[/ame]

note the building, there is a reason they keep showing the close-ups of the relief.  That building was a fechtschule or fight-club, a medieval fencing fraternity, which they are now taking over as they reclaim this ancient martial lineage.  

Some HEMA fighters have been entering MMA events recently, so far they have done well.   

Ringen is part of European fencing exactly the way jujistu is part of Japanese fencing.  This video shows a technique of a ringen takedown during longsword fencing.

[ame=http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=f6Pnw-9A8qQ&feature=related]YouTube - Halfsword Throw - Ringen am Schwert (Wrestling at the Sword)[/ame]

The primary weapon in most HEMA manuals is the longsword.  

The skill level reached by the most experienced HEMA practiitioners is quite high now with this particular weapon, as you can see in this video showing free play with special sparring swords that were invented in the 16th century called federshwert or 'feather swords', designed to be able to fight without injury.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNja00FNyeg&NR=1]YouTube - ARMA Free-Play in Gambesons with Federschwerter[/ame]

Here you can see the same guy demonstrating a series of specific techniques from the German Lichenauer tradition

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsGU5KI1qJA&NR=1]YouTube - Longsword Techniques[/ame]

notice these are specific counters to specific types of attacks - many of these are known as master cuts - attacks designed to wound your opponent even as they protect you from their line of attack.

This video shows a specific series of attacks and counters from one of the manuals

[ame=http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4Ng6DBfrg&feature=related]YouTube - Fechten mit dem langen Schwert[/ame]

And here you can see full-contact sparring which is a major passtime among most HEMA practitioners (unlike some Eastern MA's which use weapons)

[ame=http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n1G9rj4xoII]YouTube - HEMA/WMA-Axel&Robert[/ame]

There are even annual international tournaments now such as the one at Dijon France and Gunpowder Mills in the UK.  Here are highlights from one tournament in France.

[ame=http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=C0LYN_JUBGY&feature=related]YouTube - Dijon Tournament[/ame]

So far I have been using a lot of german terms to describe these techniques but thats mainly becuase I study the German school.  HEMA is pretty multi-cultural and surprisingly PC.  There are two major popular medieval longsword "schools", German and Italian, both similar but with some important diferences.  But manuals exist from England, France, Spain, Czech Republic, Poland, Portugal, and numerous other places I can't remember.  The top ringen experts were Jewish, Ott Jud and Jud lew.  The most famous manuals depict africans practicing fencing, and several include women.   Medieval Europe was a far stranger and more interesting place than most people today can even concieve.

Ok, enough of an introduction for now.  Next post... more about the weapons.  As a teaser: Thought European broadswords were dull and heavy?  Notice a novice HEMA fighter test-cutting with a good quality European longsword replica using tatami mats.  These are what are used to test-cut "samurai" swords.

[ame=http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mqii4ePSW1M]YouTube - Different Cuts on Tatami[/ame]


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## GlaziusF

Galloglaich said:


> The thing is, it's often (usually?) the link to reality at some level which makes the verisimilitude possible.




Other way around, actually. We call the largest stretch of consistent events "reality". I'm certain you can remember both a dream you had and the day after the dream, yet you can also easily tell them apart. Why? The dream wasn't consistent, even with itself. It was your brain firing off at random and putting the pieces together.

So we can call a sequence of internally consistent events "realistic", even when they have no consistency with the larger string of "reality"; and at the same time we can call an actual experience "unreal" because even though it is superficially consistent with the string of "reality" too much inside it is inconsistent.



Galloglaich said:


> Anyway, another major area where RPG's have veered away from an interesting reality is martial arts, specifically European martial arts...




I'm sure this will all be of great interest to the developers of D&D 12th edition for the Holoethertron, which as you know is a full-immersion substitute-reality experience that takes motion-captured input.

Luddite that I am, I'm still playing an older version. Here is how I figure out how my attack hits: I roll some dice. Here is how I figure out how soundly it hits: I roll some different dice. Sometimes, if I'm feeling particularly bold, I will roll both sets of dice together. Scandalous, I know. 

If I want to narrate the blow, I generally do not concern myself with the specifics of placement and motion or worry much at all about fluidity and seamlessness, because even if I did there's no guarantee I could turn that into words that someone else could turn into the same image with any kind of regularity. Persistence of image is really not a major concern, especially since everyone only bothers to pay attention and stay engaged until the next person in line rolls some dice and narrates for themselves.

Something that has notably taken on an actual master of martial arts as a reference is the now-concluded _Avatar: The Last Airbender_ series, though it was more Eastern martial arts. But that was a television program, and television is all about persistence of image. There's obvious utility there, not only in the presence of a consistent visual style, but in the way that the underlying martial arts can serve as a springboard for the construction of action sequences, and the resulting action sequences can affirm without stating outright that the motions the characters are making are not arbitrary but the result of training and practice.


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## amysrevenge

Galloglaich said:


> Now of course if you don't see RPGs as having anything to do with story telling, but rather only racking up points / possessions and fame to build the alter ego of a character, then none of that matters.




I like to kill monsters and take their stuff.  And rescue the mayor's niece from bandits.  And find the entrance to the lost tomb.

There's a story there, but there's also a bunch of fat guys rolling dice and letting off some steam by pretending to chop imaginary kobolds in half.


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## Galloglaich

GlaziusF said:


> Other way around, actually. We call the largest stretch of consistent events "reality". I'm certain you can remember both a dream you had and the day after the dream,(snip) though it is superficially consistent with the string of "reality" too much inside it is inconsistent.




I'm sorry I don't follow you.  All I'm saying is I think the artificial and derivative constructs usually don't work on an instinctive level and feel 'off'.   That's why nobody remembers most of tthem any more than they remember pizza huts culinary creations from 2004.  

And because of this, I think you should pick your abstractions very carefully  The further you move away from a grounding in the "real", I think the less likely you are to pull it off.



> I'm sure this will all be of great interest to the developers of D&D 12th edition for the Holoethertron, which as you know is a full-immersion substitute-reality experience that takes motion-captured input.
> Luddite that I am, I'm still playing an older version.




And yet, instead of some truly simple game, you play DnD?  Or do you use the 1E basic set?



> Here is how I figure out how my attack hits: I roll some dice. Here is how I figure out how soundly it hits: I roll some different dice. (snip) If I want to narrate the blow, I generally do not concern myself with the specifics of placement




Why would use of martial arts in an RPG combat system require detailed 'placing of blows'.  I suspect most gamers assume this because the early attempts to make "realistic" games worked that way, usually with enough charts to frighten a tax accountant.  But most of the designers of those games didn't actually know martial arts and weren't fighters.  They certainly didn't have a clue about HEMA.



> Persistence of image is really not a major concern, especially since everyone only bothers to pay attention and stay engaged until the next person in line rolls some dice and narrates for themselves.




If you are honest about it in most typical RPGs you actually do spend a fair amount of time thinking about rather complex mechanics, only they are made up abstractions which have little to do with the actual ebb and flow of a fight.  They are rules for spells, magic items, special powers, and strange guidelines which at best only vaguely resemble a real fight (or even one on TV).

Imagine if you could game a real fight (or something from a good samurai flick, or star wars or the martrix) with less rules, arithmetic and die rolls than you would make to resolve a typical mid level 3.5 combat.  Not tracking anything like bleeding rates or lung deflation, but the actual ebb and flow of combat, the interplay of tactics of each combatant. 

This has actually already been done before, games like Riddle of Steel already proved that it was possible.



> Something that has notably taken on an actual master of martial arts as a reference is the now-concluded _Avatar: The Last Airbender_ series,




Yes, that sounds more like what I'm talking about.  I'll have to look that up.  The key question is, would it be possible to do something like that with relatively simple rules?  Could you do it in DnD?

G.


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## Galloglaich

> I'm sure this will all be of great interest to the developers of D&D 12th edition for the Holoethertron, which as you know is a full-immersion substitute-reality experience that takes motion-captured input.




And don't forget by the way, they already have Wii.  You may be seeing HEMA in a game new you before you expected to 

G.


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## Galloglaich

Speaking of HEMA, the trailer of this movie Reclaiming the Blade 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxcBWl8-d0E]YouTube - Reclaiming the Blade: Official Trailer[/ame]

...has just come out.  This film is likely to catapult HEMA into a wider understanding in the mass consciousness.  Don't forget I was the first one to tell you about it


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## el-remmen

I think you may want to edit the title of this thread to something more appropriate to its content, like "Historical Adventurers" or "These Folks are Fantastic without being FANTASTIC!"


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## Galloglaich

el-remmen said:


> I think you may want to edit the title of this thread to something more appropriate to its content, like "Historical Adventurers" or "These Folks are Fantastic without being FANTASTIC!"




Sounds good to me, how do you change the thread name?


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## el-remmen

Just edit the first post and change the title.


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## GlaziusF

Galloglaich said:


> Yes, that sounds more like what I'm talking about.  I'll have to look that up.  The key question is, would it be possible to do something like that with relatively simple rules?  Could you do it in DnD?




The thing is that that is a television series. It uses actual martial arts to create things beneficial to a television series, such as consistent and/or meaningful visual metaphors and fight scene choreography. 

Not perfectly, of course. Actual Eastern martial arts do not shoot flame or freeze the rain into ice daggers. But what they take from them, at least in part, are moves that look like they might. 

Playing a game of D&D, as long as it's say 4th edition instead of 12th, there is not much use for consistent visual metaphors and fight scene choreography. I'm not really sure that there is much use for anything, at least not to the degree that taking the time to study and appreciate actual Western martial arts would result in a net savings of time for all involved.


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## Galloglaich

GlaziusF said:


> Playing a game of D&D, as long as it's say 4th edition instead of 12th, there is not much use for consistent visual metaphors and fight scene choreography. I'm not really sure that there is much use for anything, at least not to the degree that taking the time to study and appreciate actual Western martial arts would result in a net savings of time for all involved.




The idea isn't that every gamer should instantly want to learn all about HEMA, but that game designers who do understand Eastern or Western martial arts can bring the _mechanics_ of fighting into the game.  So that combat takes on more of the feel of a _fight_ rather than an exercise in book-keeping or meaningless abstractions like pressing keys in a certain order to get a particular "combo" in WoW.

If you gave players a few cleverly wrought tools, on the same level of abstraction as the rules they use already but based on what a fight is _really_ like, they could use these to make the 'game within the game' of combat a more fun and meaningful part of the overall experience.  Done right this could be the solid foundation of many different styles of gaming done in all different directions, including your shooting flames or whatever.

And if in the process gamers learned a little strategy, or how every part of the sword can be used to attack, or that swords don't wiegh 8 pounds or what half-swording is- it won't hurt anybody any more than it hurt us to learn how to kill a gelatinous cube.

G.

EDIT i should point out though I'm not talking about 4E here, I don't know if 4E could be adapted to something like this.  3.5 / pathfinder might be another story ...


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## Galloglaich

Here are a couple more interesting characters.

First, another great swordsman, though from a rather late period, he led a life similar to many of the medieval and ancient heroes.

*Sir Richard Francis Burton *19th Century - CG
was an English explorer, translator, writer, soldier, orientalist, ethnologist, linguist, poet, hypnotist, fencer and diplomat. He was known for his travels and explorations within Asia and Africa as well as his extraordinary knowledge of languages and cultures. According to one count, he spoke 29 European, Asian, and African languages.[1]
Richard Francis Burton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can still buy his excellent, highly informative and still not completely dated book on Swords on Amazon.
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Book-Sword-293-Illustrations/dp/0486254348/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223001446&sr=8-1"]Amazon.com: The Book of the Sword: With 293 Illustrations: Sir Richard F. Burton: Books[/ame]

and a few more of histories overlooked female warriors and pirates

*Queen Teuta of Illlyria *CN3rd Century BCIllyrian Female pirate queen and naval commander
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teuta

*Ethelfleda* 872-918 AD  LG
Female Saxon warrior, military leader, anti-Viking and privateer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethelfleda

*Anne Dieu-le-Veut*
Female French pirate 17th Century CN
"In 1683, Anne's husband was killed in a bar fight by the famous buccaneer Laurens de Graff. She challenged Laurens to a duel to avenge her husbands death (other sources claims she heard him insult her), and while Laurens drew his sword, Anne drew her gun."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Dieu-Le-Veut

*Mai Bhago   (late 17th century)  LG
*Female Sikh warrior and military leader
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mai_Bhago

And finally, arguably the greatest king England ever had... before there even was an England
*
Alfred the Great* LG 849-899 AD
King of Wessex
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_the_Great


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## Galloglaich

el-remmen said:


> Just edit the first post and change the title.




That doesn't seem to work with a forked thread, unless I'm missing something


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## mmadsen

Galloglaich said:


> If you gave players a few cleverly wrought tools, on the same level of abstraction as the rules they use already but based on what a fight is _really_ like, they could use these to make the 'game within the game' of combat a more fun and meaningful part of the overall experience.



Agreed.  But most people see a false dichotomy: unrealistic, abstract, and fun vs. realistic, complex, and unplayable.  I'd like to see a game that's simple and fairly abstract, but the decisions you do make are grounded in reality.  I.e. If the other guy's covered in armor I can't penetrate, maybe I should tackle him and stick a knife in his eye.  Or knock him into the stream.  Or whatever.


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## Galloglaich

mmadsen said:


> Agreed. But most people see a false dichotomy: unrealistic, abstract, and fun vs. realistic, complex, and unplayable. I'd like to see a game that's simple and fairly abstract, but the decisions you do make are grounded in reality. I.e. If the other guy's covered in armor I can't penetrate, maybe I should tackle him and stick a knife in his eye. Or knock him into the stream. Or whatever.




That is exactly what Jake Norwood did with TROS, and we have tried to do with our new OGL combat rules pdf.  It's only a baby step but so far people seem to like it.  If you'll send me your email address I'd really like to send you a free copy to have a look at. 

G.


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## Raven Crowking

Galloglaich said:


> That is exactly what Jake Norwood did with TROS, and we have tried to do with our new OGL combat rules pdf.  It's only a baby step but so far people seem to like it.  If you'll send me your email address I'd really like to send you a free copy to have a look at.
> 
> G.




Me too please?

ravencrowking at hotmail dot com.


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## mmadsen

Galloglaich said:


> That is exactly what Jake Norwood did with TROS, and we have tried to do with our new OGL combat rules pdf.



I haven't read _The Riddle of Steel_ -- I've only read _about_ it -- but I was under the impression that it was fairly involved, and that there was quite a bit to learn about the system before you'd be effective in combat.

Or would a HEMA hobbyist immediately know what tactics to choose?


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## mmadsen

As long as we're discussing Realistic Combat, I thought I'd link back to an earlier thread on the topic.  One anecdote therefrom: Take for example the case of the duel fought in 1613 between the Earl of Dorset and Lord Edward Bruce. According to the Earl's account, he received a rapier-thrust in the right nipple which passed 'level through my body, and almost to my back.' Seemingly unaffected, the Earl remained engaged in the combat for some time. The duel continued with Dorset going on to lose a finger while attempting to disarm his adversary manually. Locked in close quarters, the two struggling combatants ultimately ran out of breath. According to Dorset's account, they paused briefly to recover, and while catching their wind, considered proposals to release each other's blades. Failing to reach an agreement on exactly how this might be done, the seriously wounded Dorset finally managed to free his blade from his opponent's grasp and ultimately ran Lord Bruce through with two separate thrusts. Although Dorset had received what appears to have been a grievous wound that, in those days, ought to have been mortal, he not only remained active long enough to dispatch his adversary, but without the aid of antibiotics and emergency surgery, also managed to live another thirty-nine years.​


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## Galloglaich

mmadsen said:


> I haven't read _The Riddle of Steel_ -- I've only read _about_ it -- but I was under the impression that it was fairly involved, and that there was quite a bit to learn about the system before you'd be effective in combat.




It really wasn't that complicated, at least not initially.  The paradigm of it was a radical departure from most rpgs so that took some doing to get used to, and toward the end they started adding more and more variant rules and stuff, kind of how DnD evolved from 1E to 3.5E

The biggest holdup on it was that they made the magic system too freeform for most people, and the company Driftwood Press which bought the game never finished the redesigned Magic supplement they were supposed to do.

The thing I did is designed for 3.5 OGL, I think it's fairly easy to understand for people who play DnD, though there is still a slight paradigm shift.  I started a thread on the most radical aspect of the combat mechanic *here.*



> Or would a HEMA hobbyist immediately know what tactics to choose?



The designer, Jake Norwood, is one of the top longsword fencers in the world, (though he hasn't done it in a while he's on his second tour in Iraq right now) but by my estimation 95% of the people who played didn't know the first thing about HEMA or any martial art, the logic of the game just happened to be based on HEMA  techniques.  So they kind of picked it up the way we all picked up the idea of a saving throw or a cure light wounds spell playing DnD.

The HEMA part was pretty easy to pick up.  The weirdest aspects of TROS (like the magic system) came from the indy game design scene at the Forge wherin the game incubated.

G.

*FULL DISCLOSURE: * I was involved in TROS about midway through its life cycle, I wrote the weapons encyclopedia in The Flower of Battle which was the third (?) book for The Riddle of Steel, and part of another book they did.  I know Jake Norwood personally and consider him a friend.  We've fenced together several times.


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## Galloglaich

Raven Crowking said:


> Me too please?
> 
> ravencrowking at hotmail dot com.




Done.  Check your spam filters gentlemen.  You should be getting an email from drivethroughrpg in the next few minutes.

G.


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## GlaziusF

Galloglaich said:


> If you gave players a few *cleverly wrought *tools, on the *same level of abstraction* as the rules they use already but based on what a fight is _really_ like, they could use these to make the 'game within the game' of combat a *more fun and meaningful* part of the overall experience.  Done right this could be the *solid foundation of many different styles of gaming* done in all different directions, *including your shooting flames* or whatever.




I'll believe it when I see it.

Also it has to accommodate a running battle with a demon-possessed crossbowman and a magma-spitting rock scorpion over a field of broken basalt and lava geysers, because I just did that last night at fourth freaking level and my players got a real kick out of it.


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## Galloglaich

GlaziusF said:


> I'll believe it when I see it.




Would you?  Because a lot of people wouldn't.  Many folks seem to get emotionally invested in this kind of issue for some reason and can be really fanatical about it.  A dispassionate assessment would be welcome.



> Also it has to accommodate a running battle with a demon-possessed crossbowman and a magma-spitting rock scorpion over a field of broken basalt and lava geysers, because I just did that last night at fourth freaking level and my players got a real kick out of it.



Sounds like a fun session.  Done right I'm sure even I'd enjoy it despite my realism loving / low fantasy leanings.  

Something we have to keep in mind here is that there ARE different ways to play the game.  I think the gripe some people have about ... new developments is that it has become a narrower game that you can only play one way.

If you accept this premise: 

_If you gave players a few *cleverly wrought *tools, on the *same level of abstraction* as the rules they use already but based on what a fight is __really like, they could use these to make the 'game within the game' of combat a *more fun and meaningful* part of the overall experience.  Done right this could be the *solid foundation of many different styles of gaming* done in all different directions, *including your shooting flames* or whatever._

..then we are a long way in the direction of being able to realize this one particular type of game which I think a lot of us have been wanting to see since ADnD.  

Because maybe I can't pull this off,  (I hope I have taken at least a baby step in this direction but that remains to be seen), but I guarantee you _somebody_ could do this, if you defined this as the goal.  I don't think very many people have actually tried this in the way your emphasis (and mine) in the above paragraph recommends yet.

G.


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## Galloglaich

I wrote a little blog about art and RPG's at my site here, featuring Albrecht Durer:

codexmartialis.com • View topic - Albrehct Durer


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## mmadsen

Galloglaich said:


> I wrote a little blog about art and RPG's at my site here, featuring Albrecht Durer:
> 
> codexmartialis.com • View topic - Albrehct Durer



I'm a big fan of Albrecht Dürer too, but I didn't realize he was such an expert on combat.  It's a shame his intricate work doesn't scan and compress well; online examples lose some of the originals' charm.

Another excellent illustrator is Gustave Doré -- from a later era and, I assume, not an expert on hand-to-hand combat.  Some of his works are very D&D:

Merlin Advising King Arthur
Orlando Furioso on Griffon, Slaying Serpent (Not  quite safe for work...)
Orlando Furioso on Griffon


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## Galloglaich

mmadsen said:


> I'm a big fan of Albrecht Dürer too, but I didn't realize he was such an expert on combat.




Yes that's rather startling isn't it?  One of the many ways European Martial Arts have been kind of hiding in plain sight ... it's very strange to me that in being very interested in both Durer and everything to do with swords I didn't find out he was an accomplished longsword fighter until I was 40 years old....



> It's a shame his intricate work doesn't scan and compress well; online examples lose some of the originals' charm.



Its very hard to find good scans of his work online and I'm really not sure why, you can't even find high -res scans of most of those images, the Galloglass one for example the best I could find in several years was that small fuzzy image I posted.  I also have bought four expensive Durer art books all of which claim to be 'complete' Durer collections and none of those pictures are in them, though I'm still glad to have them.  He was amazingly prolific but seems to be rather badly categoriezed and it's difficult to access his work.



> Another excellent illustrator is Gustave Doré -- from a later era and, I assume, not an expert on hand-to-hand combat.  Some of his works are very D&D:
> 
> Merlin Advising King Arthur
> Orlando Furioso on Griffon, Slaying Serpent (Not  quite safe for work...)
> Orlando Furioso on Griffon



Yes Dore is fantastic, of a later period but the same aesthetic of any Gamer IMO.  To me this one of Don Quixote perfectly sums up my ideal DnD night:







(speaking of which Cervantes had a rather amazing D&Dish life full of adventure and mishap, read up on him some day)

Many of Dores contemporaries in the 19th Century were part of the so-called "Orientalist Movement" which also  dovetails very well with RPGs IMO due to their attention to technical detail (like weapons and armor which are usually done very accurately) combined with an exhuberant use of color and an almost desperate yearning to fleee the gray world of their Victorian culture and plunge into the exotic vistas and what they thought of as the untamed passions of foreign lands ...

Their repression lead to inspiration.  This is one by Ludwig Deutsch is one of my favorites:






I wrote another little blog about Orientalist art and RPGs here:

codexmartialis.com • View topic - Orientalist paintings

G.


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## Galloglaich

Raven Crowking said:


> Me too please?
> 
> ravencrowking at hotmail dot com.





Raven did you ever get your comp copy?  

G.


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## Galloglaich

I wrote a new blog: "*Introducing the coolest weapon you never heard of in any Role playing Game*"

Here is a teaser







codexmartialis.com • View topic - The coolest weapon you never heard of in any RPG


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## Hussar

Great stuff and good reading.


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## Aus_Snow

Hey Galloglaich, if you're handing that PDF around, I'll gladly accept a copy. The email address is aus [underscore] snow [at] letterboxes [dot] org .

Thanks!


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## Galloglaich

Aus_Snow said:


> Hey Galloglaich, if you're handing that PDF around, I'll gladly accept a copy. The email address is aus [underscore] snow [at] letterboxes [dot] org .
> 
> Thanks!




Ok check your spamfilter I'm sending one now.  You are the last lucky Enworlder, as the 'beta' phase of this is ending tonight with the next update going out today.  Monday I'm raising the price and not sending any more comp copies out except for formal reviews.

Let me know what you think eithr here or at codexmartialis.com • Index page

Also make sure you set the flag for automatic updates so you get the update which is going to go out later today.

G.


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## jdrakeh

Thanks for this thread! While I don't think we'd agree on what constitutes verisimilitude or historical "realism" in games, I certainly prefer Low Fantasy inspired by historical personages and will find this thread quite useful


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## Galloglaich

jdrakeh said:


> Thanks for this thread! While I don't think we'd agree on what constitutes verisimilitude or historical "realism" in games, I certainly prefer Low Fantasy inspired by historical personages and will find this thread quite useful




Feel free to elaborate, I think verisimilitude and realism mean different things to different people, and I'm not fanatic about my own interpretation.  

G.


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## Galloglaich

mmadsen said:


> As long as we're discussing Realistic Combat, I thought I'd link back to an earlier thread on the topic.  One anecdote therefrom:Take for example the case of the duel fought in 1613 between the Earl of Dorset and Lord Edward Bruce. According to the Earl's account, he received a rapier-thrust in the right nipple which passed 'level through my body, and almost to my back.' Seemingly unaffected, the Earl remained engaged in the combat for some time. The duel continued with Dorset going on to lose a finger while attempting to disarm his adversary manually. Locked in close quarters, the two struggling combatants ultimately ran out of breath. According to Dorset's account, they paused briefly to recover, and while catching their wind, considered proposals to release each other's blades. Failing to reach an agreement on exactly how this might be done, the seriously wounded Dorset finally managed to free his blade from his opponent's grasp and ultimately ran Lord Bruce through with two separate thrusts. Although Dorset had received what appears to have been a grievous wound that, in those days, ought to have been mortal, he not only remained active long enough to dispatch his adversary, but without the aid of antibiotics and emergency surgery, also managed to live another thirty-nine years.​




That is a great anecdote. There are so many detailed descriptions of combat like that, reading them can really grant insight into A) how fights really happen and B) how to make cinematic fights which have that elusive verisimilitude.  The Viking Sagas are superb sources for this, particularly the later family sagas which are very realistic (and I think more historical than most people give them credit for).  Take this delightful little anecdote I just added to the Codex, from the Saga of Grettir the Strong.

The viking age, Grettirs saga...

_There was a hill between them and Grettir, who had turned back along
 the footpath.  Now he had no others to reckon with in making the attack.  
He drew his sword Jokulsnaut and tied a loop round the handle which he 
passed over his wrist, because he thought that he could carry out his plans 
better if his hand were free.  He went along the path.  When the bear saw a 
man coming, he charged savagely, and struck at him with the paw that was 
on the side away from the precipice.  Grettir aimed a blow at him with his 
sword and cut off his paw just above the claws.  Then the creature tried to 
strike him with his sound paw, but to do so he had to drop on the stump, 
which was shorter than he expected, and over he fell into Grettir's 
embraces.  Grettir seized the beast by the ears and held him off so that he 
could not bite.  He always said that he considered this holding back the bear 
the greatest feat of strength that he ever performed.  The beast struggled 
violently; the space was very narrow, and they both fell over the precipice.  
The bear being the heavier came down first on the beach; Grettir fell on 
the top of him, and the bear was badly mauled on the side that was down.  
Grettir got his sword, ran it into the heart of the bear and killed him.  Then 
he went home, after fetching his cloak which was torn to pieces.  He also 
took with him the bit of the paw which he had cut off. _

If you prefer battles with knights in full armor it's hard to beat this one on one combat from the 15th Century:

_..The infidel threw his shield in front of him, and laying his spear on his 
arm he ran swiftly at me, uttering a cry. I approached, having my spear at 
the thigh, but as I drew near I couched my spear and thrust at his shield, 
and although he struck at me with his spear in the flank and forearm, I was 
able to give him such mighty thrust that horse and man fell to the ground. 
But his spear hung in my armor and hindered me, and I had great difficulty 
in loosing it and alighting from my horse. By this time he also was 
dismounted. I had my sword in my hand; he likewise seized his sword, and 
we advanced and gave each other a mighty blow. The infidel had excellent 
armour, and though I struck him by the shield he received no injury. Nor did 
his blows injure me. We then gripped each other and wrestled so long that 
we fell to the ground side by side. But the infidel was a man of amazing 
strength. He tore himself from my grasp, and we both raised our bodies until 
we were kneeling side by side. I then thrust him from me with my left hand 
in order to be able to strike at him with my sword, and this I was able to 
do, for with the thrust his body was so far removed that I was able to cut 
at his face, and although the blow was not wholly successful, I wounded 
him so that he swayed and was half-blinded. I then struck him a direct blow 
in the face and hurled him to the ground, and falling upon him I thrust my 
sword through his throat, after which I rose to my feet, took his sword, and 
returned to my horse. The two beasts were standing side by side. They had 
been worked hard the whole day, and were quite quiet.

When the infidels saw I had conquered they drew off their forces. But the 
Portuguese and Christians approached and cut off the infidel’s head, and 
took his spear, and placed the head upon it, and removed his armour. It 
was a costly suit, made in the heathen fashion, very strong and richly 
ornamented..._

...from the diary of the German knight Jorg von Ehingen, who fought with the Portuguese in 1467.  Really gives you a good idea how effective armor actually was...

G.


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## Raven Crowking

Galloglaich said:


> Raven did you ever get your comp copy?
> 
> G.




I ran into a problem, but now have a new email and will try again today.

RC


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## John Q. Mayhem

This thread delivers. Very very good stuff here, and I really enjoyed those posts on art and weapons. Dha are, indeed, awesome


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## Mustrum_Ridcully

Galloglaich said:


> Anyway, another major area where RPG's have veered away from an interesting reality is martial arts, specifically European martial arts which somewhat amazingly, tens of thousands of people who spend their weekends pretending to be knights and paladins, swashbucking pirates and "cunninge thieves" have never even heard of.  Our characters wield swords and spears and quarter staves but most of us have absolutely no idea what a sword or a spear or a quarter staff was really like let alone how they were used.
> 
> The rediscovery of Historical European Martial Arts first began to slowly percolate into modern consciousness back in the 1990s, today it is a booming world-wide phenomenon.  The sword-fighting techniques written down in books as far back as the 1300s are extremeley effective and are now pretty well understood, though we are still only scratching the surface.
> 
> Perhaps more surprisingly for many people, HEMA as it's now known has become a respected martial art, widely understood to be every bit as lethal as anything ever taught to a samurai.
> 
> Gary Gygax did some fairly good research on weapons back around the time he wrote the DmG but nobody back then really understood how sword fighting actually worked and the attempts to make up realistic combat were mostly focused on highly complex wound systems which slowed the game to a crawl.  The closes thing most people ever saw to medieval combat was re-enactors at a Ren Faire or the SCA.... or a Monty Python movie.  Most gamers turned away from what they thought was the reality of medieval combat and never looked back, after all, everybody knows only the samurai had any real technique in how they fought, right?  Knights carried great clumsy ten pound "broadswords" they just hewed dents into each others armor with, right?
> 
> Well, no, thats wrong.  HEMA is extremely sophisticated and effective and it's now pretty well understood. There are about 30 major HEMA groups worldwide now, and I don't even know how many schools, dozens I believe. A few RPG enthusiasts know about this, but most don't.  So I think it's time I'd like to introduce DnD to the new reality..
> 
> To convey an idea of what is going on now, here are some videos depicting messer fighting techniques written down in books 500 years ago.  A messer was kind of like a medieval machete... a very common weapon you probably aren't very familiar with since they never have them in movies or video games, or RPG's.  The word actually means 'knife' but think of it as a kind of a light falchion, though some were quite large called "grossemessers" or "kriegmessers" and used with two-hands, something like a slightly butch katana.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can see one depicted in this old woodcut, these men are in HEMA fencing guards.
> 
> Here is a photo of a real one from about 1520
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this is a similar weapon called a 'schwisersabel' used in Switzerland.
> 
> 
> Anyway, these videeos deal with the smaller machete sized weapon.  This one is clever because they show you some quotes from the book, followed by the original drawings, then live action of HEMA fighters demonstrating the technique depicted.  It's all done nice and slow so you can see the technique.
> *snip*



Those videos were very interesting. Thanks for digging them out!


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## Galloglaich

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Those videos were very interesting. Thanks for digging them out!




My pleasure.  I practice HEMA myself so I knew most of the people from those vids, they weren't hard to find.

G.


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## Raven Crowking

Galloglaich said:


> Raven did you ever get your comp copy?
> 
> G.




I've gotten it, and I have given it a first read-through.

Some ideas are similar (in intent, if not in rendering) to what I did for my 3.5 houserules -- i.e., tactical combat that doesn't rely on a grid, making weapon choice more than decoration, etc.

I especially liked that you included notes about using the system with animals.

This does increase the complexity of combat somewhat, but in a good way (as opposed to, in a "grid" way, if you take my meaning! ).  I'd be happy to write up a full review at some point, after trying out a few combats with the system.

Some notes:

1.  You need another editting pass.  I don't have my copy in front of me, but I noticed the word "is" ended up in the framing art on one page, the end of a sentence is lost to the ether on another, and there is no clear indication of what is OGC and what is Product Identity.  I'd be happy to find the page numbers for you later, if you like.

2.  The entire thing could be longer.  Not because you need more "system", but because you could use more "bridging text".

3.  From my quick read, it seems that the optional hp rules would make this system fast & furious, esp. in low-magic campaign worlds.

4.  I am not a proponent of 4e, so I don't know how readily adaptable this system is to 4e, but I do know that it reads a heck of a lot better than the 4e combat system, IMHO.

Overall, first read makes it a pretty good document, and one that sparked my imagination.  I could definitely see using this.  In fact, if sales go well, I'd consider a monster document with CM info worked into the statblocks were I you.


RC


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## Galloglaich

> I especially liked that you included notes about using the system with animals
> This does increase the complexity of combat somewhat, but in a good way (as opposed to, in a "grid" way, if you take my meaning! ). I'd be happy to write up a full review at some point, after trying out a few combats with the system.



I’d love to get a review and look forward to hearing about your experiments



> 4. I am not a proponent of 4e, so I don't know how readily adaptable this system is to 4e, but I do know that it reads a heck of a lot better than the 4e combat system, IMHO.



This was never written to be adaptable to 4e, though a guy was talking about some ideas along those lines in another thread here on Enworld. 


> Overall, first read makes it a pretty good document, and one that sparked my imagination. I could definitely see using this. In fact, if sales go well, I'd consider a monster document with CM info worked into the statblocks were I you.RC



One good thing is that because of the helpful policy in 3.5 E of breaking down monster AC into Natural Armor, Dex, etc. in the stat blocks it’s fairly easy to convert monsters “on the fly” over to this system.

We could do several possible expansions, but as you say all that depends on sales, which governs how much time and effort I can put in to it. Right now I’ll just be happy to be able to pay my artist and my layout guy. 

Meanwhile we will continue to tinker with many ideas on our forum regardless, just for fun 

G.


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## Raven Crowking

Page 11:  Word "is" in the border art.

Page 13:  Left column sentence ends without being completed.


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## Galloglaich

*On the historical reality of armor*

New blog:

http://www.codexmartialis.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=35&p=92#p92


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## Galloglaich

Just to show history can be fun... Here is a cool little video depicting a duel between two crossbowmen.  Swift, instantly immersive, and historically grounded, down to the small details.  Enjoy.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exrL4UEh8og"]YouTube - Rubedo[/ame]


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## Galloglaich

Here is a video depicting demonstrations of Gatka, a type of Sikh saber fencing.  Similar to our western HEMA traditions and Japanese fencing traditions such as Kendo, the Sikhs keep their martial arts alive by training including contact sparring bouts (the sticks you see in the vid with the fuzzy orange hand-guards are their sparring weapons).  

These three brothers were killed in a tragic drowning accident shortly after this video was made.  Their fencing technique is beautiful to behold, all of the fencing techniques you see here go back 400 years and more, the Sikhs keep these traditions alive, it is an important part of their culture.

[ame="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YHtqGaR31Z8"]YouTube - G.U.P.T Tribute to Gursikhs[/ame]


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## Galloglaich

First review is out. A staff review from DrivethroughRPG I wasn't even expecting (I haven't sent any copies for formaI reviews yet as i still have some problems with the Table of Contents and the Index I need to fix) 

it's short but somewhat to my amazement, it's a quite good review I think. 
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_reviews_info.php?products_id=58045&reviews_id=18793
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_reviews_info.php?products_id=58045&reviews_id=18793


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## MichaelSomething

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that Galloglaich is a fan of the Human Weapon TV Series and the Commad and Colors Ancients boardgame!


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## Galloglaich

MichaelSomething said:


> I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that Galloglaich is a fan of the Human Weapon TV Series and the Commad and Colors Ancients boardgame!




I did like the Human Weapon series though there were some things about it which were a little off -that's pretty typical for those kind of documentaries. Never heard of Command and Colors maybe I should look it up.  Hardly ever play board games any more I miss them, I don't know too many people who are into them any more.

G.


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## Galloglaich

*Three things you might be shocked to know about Armor*

Ok part II of the armor essay, this should be the more fun part, dealing with mail and plate armor.

*The word is Mail not "Chainmail"...*

..but call it whatever you like.  Current belief is that it dates back as far as  about 500 BC, and it was apparently invented by the Celts.  The earliest known samples are from Celtic graves in Romania from the 4th Century BC.   The Romans adopted it shortly after Rome was sacked by the Celts in 387 BC and it became the principle armor of the Roman Legion (equipping almost every front-line Legionnaire) from around the 3rd century BC until well into the 2nd Century AD, i.e. during the peak of Roman power.  Mail armor was also likely a very important part of the rise of military power in Western Europe in the medieval period.

The most shocking thing you might not know about Armor in general and Mail in particular is the same reason the Romans so quickly adopted it and went to massive expense to equip all their legions with it: it worked.  When we see armor portrayed in movies it never works.  It is pretty much just the ineffective uniform of the bad guy.  It never provides any protection unless it's magic.  But of course, our ancestors who made and wore this in spite of the cost and weight, didn't have any magic to protect them, no mythril and adamantine, only iron and steel.   Did they just wear it for decoration?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baadNmz_NnU"]YouTube - Scared Stormtroopers[/ame]
What is the point of wearing all that armor when a teddy bear with a moldy log can kill you with one blow?

In movies, a bad guy can be dispatched by a gentle draw cut across the stomach by his heroic opponent.  In RPGs and Computer Games it's not much better.  Pretty much any weapon can defeat armor, it's mostly a minor inconvenience (or a small incremental protection).

This seems to originate from our general modern contempt for the technology and wisdom of our ancestors, but more specifically in the gaming community due to the early attempts of re-enactors to re-create 'Chainmail' in the SCA and at Ren Faires.  They came up with a technique called 'butted' mail.







While this is suitible for halloween costumes and arguably, for SCA combat or Ren Faires, it is not historical and provides relatively poor protection against real weapons.  

Butted Mail is made from simple crimping the pieces of wire together.  It's not very strong.  In fact some butted mail lacks the strength to even hold itself together under it's own weight, and is usually made from heavier links just so that it won't develop holes and a 'moth-eaten' appearance spontaneously.

Real historical Mail armor was riveted or welded, meaning each link is riveted with a tiny little rivet, or welded together.  This obviously required a much more painstaking process to make.  Something the Romans could mass-produce thanks to all the Slave labor they had.  Celts and other barbarians had much lower ratios of armored fighters, like one out of every hundred or even worse.






This stuff is hard to make but it is really amazingly effective protection

Riveted mail works very well.  Indeed, the Royal Armory at Leeds conducted numerous tests with high tech equipment and came to the conclusion that mail armor was virtually impossible to penetrate by medieval hand-weapons. 

I have seen many tests myself, from my experience, Mail is basically invulnerable to sword cuts, even axe cuts, though a large two-handed pole-arm like a halberd can penetrate it.  Very high energy missile weapons such as longbows can punch through but only at very short range (inside 20 feet or so), as could the very heavy crossbows of the type which appeared in the 15th century, and the early firearms such as the arquebus, all of which contributed to the eventual development of plate armor in the 14th century.

But why listen to me go on about it when thanks to youtube and the internet, I can show you some of the experiments which have been done and you can judge for yourself.

First look at this kid.  He may have a screw loose, and kind of looks a little crazy, but he's not as reckless as you might think to try this experiment:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au9tSDueIko"]YouTube - Test kolczugi na nóż kuchenny[/ame]
don't know what this guy is saying, but the video speaks for itself.

Here is a more serious test conducted by John Clements of the Association for Renaissance Martial Arts (the ARMA), one of the early pioneers of the HEMA movement.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdSCXJf7kDc"]YouTube - Mail armour cutting test[/ame]
Notice as he easily cuts a tatami mat (used for testing samurai swords) with his messer before attempting to cut the mail.  I got to handle this same sample of mail he is cutting here, and witnessed several people try unsuccessfully to penetrate it with knives, swords and axes.  This was an exceptionally strong piece of tempered steel Mail, but this strength was not unusual in the Renaissance.  


As I said, even against powerful bows using armor piercing (bodkin) arrows at very short range, mail armor protects the wearer.

Test Maill versus Arrows.




Byzantine Princess Ana Comnena described the horror and amazement of the Turks at witnessing Crusaders continuing to advance with arrows sticking in their armor like this.


In fact after decades of testing, modern armor makers finally came to the conclusion that Mail was the only effective way to protect against knives and it is being incorporated into the highest quality modern stab-proof vests for the police in the UK and US prison guards.

Ballistic vest - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Plate Armor*

The most shocking thing you might not know about plate harness (or full body armor), aside from the fact that it works, is that it came quite late.  In fact the articulated 'knight in shining armor' type we know so well from movies and RPGs, actually appeared considerably _after _the invention of firearms.

Simpler forms of plate armor go very far back though.  The earliest form of plate armor is the helmet.  Helmets are arguably the single most ubiquitous form of protective kit other than the shield, and were made even before the advent of metal armor.  For example the greeks during the time of Agamemnon (Myceneans) made helmets out of boars teeth







I don't know how well the boars tooth helmets worked, but helmets made of iron were very good protection, as you can see in this video
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h0e0NSwYNg&feature=related[/ame]

They could be scary too, like this 16th century Totenkopf helmet




This would fit right into a death-knight or anti-paladin villain in a DnD campaign






Articulated plate armor was very effective, even against high energy missiles like Longbows, 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3997HZuWjk&feature=related"]YouTube - Longbow vs Plate Armour[/ame]

but it was also extremely expensive.





Contrary to popualr mythology, it was usually well fitted and did not restrict combat movement.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm11yAXeegg"]YouTube - Armour Aerobics[/ame]

Nor did you require a hoist to get into the saddle, nor did you need help getting up after falling off your horse as you can see clearly here

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMuNXWFPewg&NR=1"]YouTube - Down from horseback with armour[/ame]




Plate armor survived after the era of the cannon, in the form of the cuirass or breastplate, and of course the steel helmet which never did go away.  The term 'bullet proof' comes from armor makers going back to the 1500s who would shoot their armor plates and mark the dents as 'proof' that they were bullet proof.

The tradition lives on to today.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1K2DZ7NUoM"]YouTube - Test shooting[/ame]

In conclusion

So does any of this matter to your DnD game?  Maybe not, but it can't hurt to see the reality of armor, if you ever get to the point where the fantasy version simply isn't making sense for you in your game, you can always go back to the source and start with an historical grounding.  Because it does make all those funny weapons and tactics that were used in ancient times actually make sense and 'balance' when you put them all together as they really were.  

And who knows you might even find historical combat is even more interesting and dramatic than the kind you do in WoW.

G.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

The guy from that armor & horseback video is Mike Loades on his show "Weapons that made Britain"-  great show!

One of the best points he made in that series was this: The armor of the day was well designed to protect the wearer from the weapons of the day.

The second best point he made was that no armor was perfect- each had a flaw that an experienced warrior with the right tool could exploit.

The main flaw, common to all armors, is the human inside- specifically his soft tissues (esp. the brain).  While the armor may prevent a blade from slashing flesh, a spear from thrusting deep, or a mace from crushing a limb, the non-compressibility of the water that makes up so much of our bodies means a solid blow may result in hydrostatic shock that could debilitate a seemingly uninjured combatant.  That is why maces were so popular after the advent of full plate.  Ditto the development of the Mortschlag- the Murder Blow- where the combatant grasped the blade and struck at his foe's head using the crosspiece of his blade like a hammer or pick.

While a mace blow or mortschlag might not break bone or even cause a bruise, the resultant hydrostatic shock could disrupt the nervous system of the person struck, resulting in a "dead arm" or even a concussion- either of which is debilitating enough to leave the victim vulnerable to more lethal attacks.


----------



## Galloglaich

Dannyalcatraz said:


> The guy from that armor & horseback video is Mike Loades on his show "Weapons that made Britain"-  great show!




Yes it's one of the very few pop history shows I've ever seen that really got it right, Mike Loades really gets it.



> One of the best points he made in that series was this: The armor of the day was well designed to protect the wearer from the weapons of the day.
> 
> The second best point he made was that no armor was perfect- each had a flaw that an experienced warrior with the right tool could exploit.



Of course, and the primary 'flaw' for 95% of the combatants was that the armor usually did not cover the whole body.  The number of people who could afford cap-a-pied armor protection was tiny.  So the best way to defeat armor was usually to go _around_ it, something most RPG combat systems don't really model.

But that wasn't easy in the middle of a fight, making even partial armor protection incredibly valuable, if you have ever tried sparring with weapons you know how difficult it is _not_ to be hit, and if you have ever cut with a realistic replica you know how devastating these weapons are to unprotected flesh.  

just as an example of that, consider this test cut and this one on deer carcases, (warning those clips are not for the squeamish)

This is the real reason the Roman Legions did so well in attrition warfare of the type so often practiced during their heydey, with both sides exchanging javelins and darts all day, the side with little to no armor is at a crippling disadvantage.

To face a fully armored knight was a daunting challenge indeed.  It's no accident that the stunning military successes of the First Crusade coincided with Mail armor beginning to creep toward cap-a-pied coverage, this is one of the principle reasons the crusaders were such a shock to the Turks and the Arabs initially according to their own records.



> The main flaw, common to all armors, is the human inside- specifically his soft tissues (snip) That is why maces were so popular after the advent of full plate.  Ditto the development of the Mortschlag- the Murder Blow-



Of course, thats why the whole system of "harnichefechten" developed as a seperate martial art from the earlier form which became the default unarmored combat ("blossfechten"), and why all the attendent systems of half-swording etc. (including the Mortschlag) 




and the further development of KampfRingen or war-wrestling, (in an almost identical to German fencing as Jujitsu is with Japanese fencing -) became so developed as a means of getting armored opponents into that disadvantageous position.






And of course this is also the reason for the development of not only heavy maces of the European type, but all the specialist armor piercing and armor-cleaving weapons like poll-hammers, war-picks, etc. 









which became so prominent in the Renaissance battlefields -- and none of which really make any sense in RPGs because there is really no way in most RPG combat systems to model the differences between an armor piercing weapon like a war-pick and say, a sword.

The unarmored fighter is at a huge disadvantage against even a partially armored warrior- the armored fighter can wield a sword which is extremely effective at cutting flesh, wheras the unarmored warrior had better have either a specialized armor - piercing weapon or a high energy missile thrower like a heavy arbalest (crossbow) or an arquebus.

And of course they did figure that out, the hegemony of the Knight was largely broken by innovative commoners quite early, well before Plate armor became well established.  The Swiss defeated the Hapsburg Knights at  Morgarten (1315), the Flemish annihilated the French knights at Golden Spurs (1302) by inventing new weapons which could defeat armor.  The Flemish had their Guden-Tag ("good morning") the Swiss invented the Halberd and had their heavy Crossbows, and later the pike. 




The invincible Czech Hussites, another rebellion of commoners, further perfected new systems for defeating the fully armored knight which included their invention of the pistol, the use of war-wagons, and the adaptation of agricultural flails (and the farmers who knew how to use them) into deadly military weapons by adding spikes and iron bands.  This proved effective enough for them to defeat all five international Crusades launched to destroy them.

All of which is potentially interesting stuff you could use in an RPG game 





Speaking of Maces, don't you think it's interesting that the Mace, (sometimes masked as a 'scepter') is always, in seemingly every culture, the chosen weapon of Kings?  When you consider who a King has to worry about most - his fellow aristocrats, who are likely to have armor, it kind of makes sense doesn't it.

G.


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## Dannyalcatraz

> Speaking of Maces, don't you think it's interesting that the Mace, (sometimes masked as a 'scepter') is always, in seemingly every culture, the chosen weapon of Kings? When you consider who a King has to worry about most - his fellow aristocrats, who are likely to have armor, it kind of makes sense doesn't it.




Yeah- the weapon of choice for rulers is either some form of mace/scepter or the sword in probably 90% of the iconography, for that and many other reasons.


----------



## Galloglaich

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Yeah- the weapon of choice for rulers is either some form of mace/scepter or the sword in probably 90% of the iconography, for that and many other reasons.




yes but as far as I know, the crown jewels, the symbol of rule of basically any King or Emperor of anywhere always include a "scepter" or some other kind of fancy mace.

Swords also of course as they are basically the ultimate prestige hand-weapon. 

G.


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## Dannyalcatraz

As I recall, swords as the ultimate symbol of rulership are predominately found in non-European cultures.


----------



## DarenCommons

*Cheers!*

Galloglaich
i just wanted to chime in and say I really enjoy the info you're sharing.  I appreciate the DnD perspective on historical fighting.  I've been dabbling in a sword fighting school called the Western Circle recently myself,,,  Even if it never translates into game mechanics it is a great inspiration to the imagination when you have this background knowledge.  Anyways, thanks!


----------



## Galloglaich

DarenCommons said:


> Galloglaich
> i just wanted to chime in and say I really enjoy the info you're sharing.  I appreciate the DnD perspective on historical fighting.  I've been dabbling in a sword fighting school called the Western Circle recently myself,,,  Even if it never translates into game mechanics it is a great inspiration to the imagination when you have this background knowledge.  Anyways, thanks!




Thanks Daren, it's nice to hear that.  Good luck in your training.  If you have any insights relevant to RPGs post them to this thread 

G.


----------



## mmadsen

Galloglaich said:


> So the best way to defeat armor was usually to go _around_ it, something most RPG combat systems don't really model.



That's something D&D's AC-based system does oddly well, except that many of the attacks -- magic weapons, dragon bites, giant-thrown boulders, etc. -- should be able to overcome armor more directly.


----------



## Galloglaich

mmadsen said:


> That's something D&D's AC-based system does oddly well, except that many of the attacks -- magic weapons, dragon bites, giant-thrown boulders, etc. -- should be able to overcome armor more directly.




What I mean is, in terms of how weapons (or other damaging effects) work, there is no differentiation between going through or going around the armor.   In D20 / OGL you usually have one variation or the other, either AC, where armor effectively is always part of avoiding being hit (tied in with your fighting defense), or as damage reduction, where armor is always ablative.   Neither system really makes sense in isolation, IMO.

In the sense that having someone try to stab you with a knife in a grapple, being shot at by a crossbow, shot at by a death-ray, stepping on a bear trap, having a swarm of spiders fall all over you, and falling off a roof all interact with armor differently, in terms of role-playing, verisimilitude and cinematic visualization.   That's why I think it makes more sense to model both coverage and protection.  

(that way you don't have to pretend that a 'breast plate' is an entire suit of armor).

G.


----------



## Brainfart

Some guy on myArmoury did a bunch of tests on the effectiveness of maille. The tests were not conducted with any sort of scientific rigour, but the results are still a good baseline.

myArmoury.com - Riveted Maille and Padded Jack Tests (very photo intensive)


----------



## Galloglaich

Brainfart said:


> Some guy on myArmoury did a bunch of tests on the effectiveness of maille. The tests were not conducted with any sort of scientific rigour, but the results are still a good baseline.
> 
> myArmoury.com - Riveted Maille and Padded Jack Tests (very photo intensive)




Yeah that is a very good test, Myarmoury is in general an excellent resource for people interested in European swords and weapons of all types, both actual antiques (they have a fatnastic gallery of antique weapons) and a really useful guide to modern replicas including dozens of in-depth reviews, particularly of higher end swords.

I'm going to try to do a little blog on swords and some other weapons later and I'll be discussing Myarmoury a bit further.

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

Speaking of Myarmoury there was a good thread on Women Warriors on there recently, which I got a few new cool characters for my "Dilbert in the Dungeon" list, including:

*Isabel of Conches* 1100s AD                                                             
  Female Norman Knight and Noblewoman who fought at the battle of Hastings

Isabel of Conches - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Tomoe Gozen*  1157-1241                            
            A female Japanese Samurai (!!)

Tomoe Gozen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Hangaku Gozen* Another Female Samurai from the 12th Century
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangaku_Gozen


*Onorata Rodiana *1472
           A really interesting character, a  female Italian fresco painter and artist who after thwarting an attempted rape, became a Condotierre (mercenary soldier) and eventually a Condotierre Capitan!
*«* Onorata nacqui, onorata vissi, ed onorata muoio *»*
_“Honored I was born, honored I lived, and honored I die”_
Female Firebrands and Reformers - Onorata Rodiana
Onorata Rodiana
Onorata Rodiani - Wikipedia

*Catalina de Erauso* (1585-1650)                                

              Basque Female soldier, assassin, conquistador, duelist   
Catalina de Erauso - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Destreza Translation & Research Project


Here is the Myarmoury thread:

myArmoury.com - Historical examples of female warriors...


I also have added one truly remarkable and colorful male figure, 
*Götz von Berlichingen* (c. 1480 – 23 July 1562; unabbreviated form: _Gottfried von Berlichingen_) a German knight (_Deutscher Ritter_), and Mercenary. With one iron hand.
GÃ¶tz von Berlichingen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Khairn

Thanks to everyone for this thread.  Really outstanding information.


----------



## RFisher

Galloglaich said:


> What I mean is, in terms of how weapons (or other damaging effects) work, there is no differentiation between going through or going around the armor.   In D20 / OGL you usually have one variation or the other, either AC, where armor effectively is always part of avoiding being hit (tied in with your fighting defense), or as damage reduction, where armor is always ablative.   Neither system really makes sense in isolation, IMO.




I try not to look at the attack roll and damage roll in d20 as separate things really representing what they’re named after.

But the point I want to make is that GURPS had separate “passive defense” and “damage resistance” for armor. (Though I may be misremembering the exact terms.)

Though, I believe they eliminated PD in GURPS 4/e.


----------



## Galloglaich

RFisher said:


> I try not to look at the attack roll and damage roll in d20 as separate things really representing what they’re named after.




Well when you've got things like touch effects for say, paralysis or various spells, you've got critical hits based on weapon type, defensive spell and natural effects (stoneskin, protection from arrows etc.) which resist certain type of attacks and etc.  that level of abstraction can get tricky to keep up with.

What we did with the codex was to change the focus of the abstraction to assume that a hit was a hit, a miss was a miss, and try to let it all work cinematically.  I think it works at least for slightly more 'grim and gritty' type games.



> But the point I want to make is that GURPS had separate “passive defense” and “damage resistance” for armor. (Though I may be misremembering the exact terms.)
> 
> Though, I believe they eliminated PD in GURPS 4/e.



GURPS is a great system, but to me their combat system didn't have the kind of dynamic natural feel of the ebb and flow of a fight that I wanted any more than standard 3.5 DnD did (though I haven't tried GURPS 4/e)

Typically in most systems, if you have armor as damage reduction there is no way around it.  IIRC in GURPS the way to kind of beat the system was to go around it, but it got ridiculously easy at higher skill levels to throw the proverbial dagger into the eye-slit.

I don't want to make an extra roll every time to determine hit-location, don't want to do a ton of arithmetic, don't want to look up charts, and I don't want for there to only be one way to win a fight (because that's not how a fight really works)  I don't think fighting should be routine or predictable in an RPG.

So in our system you can punch through the armor (helps to have armor-piercing weapons but you can also try for critical hits by putting multiple dice into one attack) go around it with a bypass attempt (harder the more coverage the armor has but never impossible) or even take the armor apart by attacking it directly, all basically driven by whatever the player wants to do, neither constraining their options nor forcing them to get into detail they don't need.

G.


----------



## Kordeth

Galloglaich said:


> Speaking of Myarmoury there was a good thread on Women Warriors on there recently, which I got a few new cool characters for my "Dilbert in the Dungeon" list, including:




She's a bit later than the typical D&D milieu, but one more:

*Julie d'Aubigny* 1670-1707
French duelist, opera singer, and shameless flirt.
Julie d'Aubigny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Galloglaich

Kordeth said:


> She's a bit later than the typical D&D milieu, but one more:
> 
> *Julie d'Aubigny* 1670-1707
> French duelist, opera singer, and shameless flirt.
> Julie d'Aubigny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Yeah she's awesome and an ideal archetype for any kind of swashbuckling / pirates / three musketeers type game.  She's in the original list, in the OP, there are two other links on her there which have a bit more detail than the Wiki page.

One of my all-time favorite historical characters 

G.


----------



## Jack7

> One argument I have heard many, many times from people who don't like low fantasy, is that they don't want a boring game about some peasant who has fleas and dies of the plague anonymously at age 27. They want to be a hero, someone remarkable, someone who transcended the mundane. Most of all they don't want to be anything like reality, which for some of us is like the life of Dilbert. We don't want to play Dilbert in the Dungeon.
> 
> Well, if you prefer high fantasy that is ok, but as someone who enjoys history, I wanted to point out that there are rather quite a few remarkable real people from history who had adventures seldom matched in any Fantasy Novel, DnD game, or all the WoW games ever played, and they were a long way from Dilbert. In fact, many of the people on this list were IMOgreater warriors than Conan, wiser than King Arthur, and more ruthless and intrepid than Elric.





I wholeheartedly agree.

If someone from another world were to read stories of the real lives of some of the most unusual people from human history they would be forced to conclude that such tales were so fantastic as to be utterly unbelievable.

It is not the world in which outstanding men and women live, it is not magical powers, or bizarre cultures, it is that they carry within them an absolute fearlessness to be whatever they desire.

Few fictional characters will ever match real men and women for real greatness, or true heroism.

By the way, I like the historical approach you seem to be taking. I really do, since that is the method I favor, with my group gaming out of Constantinople circa 800 AD, as a milieu base of operations. I also like the emphasis on art and mythology - art, iconography, the Saints, historical personages and events, mythology, real world religion, cultures, etc. all playing a large role in my setting and the campaigns of my players (as far as our D&D game goes).

I have been unable to review every post in this thread, and so maybe I have missed something. And I look forward to reviewing this thread later in more detail.

One thing though that I was curious about. _The Codex Martialis_, from what I can tell so far is seems a very interesting resource, and I think I'd probably enjoy reviewing it (along with some of your other links, like you postings on Durer), however, and I'm assuming you are playing D&D, or a modified semi-historical D&D hybrid like we do, but many, many combat situations in D&D, and in my game are not duel type situations, but are actually small team tactical engagements. Occasionally we even engage in large scale wargame skirmishes, say my player's (what today would be called Special Forces) Byzantine Team versus the Bulgars, the Vikings, the Goths, the Muslims, or the Persians.

I very much appreciate the ideas you are presenting, and I understand your purpose, but let me ask you a question, and I'm not in any way trying to bait you. But have you ever been in combat? (I do not mean fencing matches or personal duels, but in even small group combat situations?)

If you have then you know group combat, even small group endearments are a very different situation than personal duels. (I have nothing against personal duels. I have noticed however that they are rare in D&D.)

So, what I'm driving at is this, is your system applicable to non-personal, grouped combat situations? (Because in group combat people act differently than when they are engaged in personal combat, even personal combat duels to the death. Let me give an example. In a personal combat situation maneuver for positing is a very different situation that when maneuvering for position where you are potentially surrounded in close quarters with enemies flanking you as well as to the fore. A solid maneuver for repositioning in a duel would lead to exposure and quick death in close quarters group combat. That would be true if you are talking hand to hand weaponry, or engagement with more or less modern weaponry. As an instance of example, with hand to hand weapons in a duel one might miss and then face counter-attack, for which one could reasonably reset to receive a counter-thrust because your focus of attention is limited to a single opponent. In close quarters group combat a miss against your intended target might have multiple effects, it might go unnoticed by those around you, friend and foe, your miss might expose you to an unengaged enemy to your rear including a longbowman or crossbowman, your intended target miss might strike a nearby combatant, including an ally, it might smack into an unobserved obstacle and loosen your weapon from your grip or endanger your balance, it might draw the attention of an attacker who is seeking his next enemy to engage, you might charge - through the momentum of your miss - into another combatant you did not know was there until he was struck, and so forth and so on. Group combat is a very different procedure with very different effects and concerns from man-to-man, single issue duels.) I put up a thread of my own to deal with some of these general issues: The Tactical Repertoire
(So I like your emphasis on realism in combat. And I'm going to be writing an essay on _Real World Historical Elements in the development of Milieu and Adventure Design._)

I know in D&D it is basically turn based really, with it seeming to break down group combat into a series of, generally speaking, man-to man encounters, with one party acting, then the other reacting, and so forth and so on, so game combat presents the tactical engagement illusion that this (a man-to-man duel) is what group combat is really like. But I'm just curious, is your system designed for the duel primarily, or for small teams combat, large scale combat, or does it, for lack of a better game and analogical term in comparison to real life, "scale differently according to circumstance?" Does it model group combat as group combat really is, or as closely as game mechanics may allow for such realities?

If so this would be of real interest to me as a simulation tool. 
If it is just based upon the combat paradigm of the man-to-man duel then that is fine too, I'd probably still be interested in trying to understand how your system works. But if it really did simulate actual group combat situations better than the current system (I know it is only a game and made for the ease of most players, it is not in any real way designed to simulate actual combat aspects, or to in any way mimic the maneuvers or activities of a real battlespace) then I'd be interested in seeing that kind of thing.

Anyway I enjoyed the thread, what I've been able to review thus far, and I appreciate the angle you have taken in regards to history. I hope your product has taken into consideration combat potentialities in and around the Eastern Roman Empire, as well as Western Europe and Japan. If not I hope you will consider investigating that aspect of world combat as well.

In any case this is a very good thread.
I've enjoyed it so far, and wouldn't mind seeing more like it.

Good luck and Godspeed with your project.
I've got to hit the sack.


----------



## Galloglaich

Jack7 said:


> Good luck and Godspeed with your project.
> I've got to hit the sack.




Hi Jack,

First of all thanks. I really appreciate somebody taking a thoughtful look at these ideas and it sounds like you and I have similar tastes in gaming. Your setting is a fascinating era / corner of the world, I often thought what a cool milieu that would be when reading of Harald Hardrada in the Varangian guard. The Rus states remind me of the Voyaguers in Canada, only more wide-open and scary. The decadant Khazar empire is like something right out of Conan.

To answer your question, I guess it depends what you mean exactly by combat but yes I have been in a few pretty hairy fights as a punk in the deep south back in the 80's.  That far back before it was cool or socially acceptable, it kind of went with the territory. 

The Codex is primarily oriented toward the kind of individual and small group combat you have in most RPGs though there are some rules for mass missile combat and cooperative fighting Martial Feats which have to do with group combat.  Due to the nature of the Martial pool getting ganged up in is much more dangerous using the codex rules, and the emphasis is on the individual and small group, though you might be able to play with the system for larger scale fights.

We do include some emphasis on your period. A lot of the shield-fighting and missile combat feats in the Codex were taken directly from the Icelandic Sagas, and there is some kit like lamellar and klibanion armor for example, and some specifically Norse and Roman weapons (the bearded axe, hurlbat, pilum, the Gastrophetes bow).

I tried to make a system which would work with every historical period that I was familiar with, so a Varjag group should fit in, but it's a generic combat system and only 40 pages. We may do some more expansions if it does well of course, there are a lot of interesting directions to go in with the historical angle, even into Magic and Alchemy etc. (I'll be posting something about Berzerks on this thread a bit later)

If you ever do get a copy let me know what you think of it ,

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

*Álfheimr: The shocking historical reality of … Elves?*

*Álfheimr: The historical reality of … Elves? (part I of II)*
  After reading through this thread you may think, “Ok Galloglaich, I see there were more interesting personalities, adventures, weapons and martial-arts in the Middle Ages than I had really expected.  But DnD is a fantasy game, and the world of humans is only a small part of its universe.  What use is all this historical grounding when it comes to something a bit more fantastic like say, Elves?

Well, old Galloglaich likes a good challenge, and while this is a tough one, I have learned through experience that history is full of surprises and seldom lets me down when I'm willing to really plunge into it.  Sure, Elves are mythological beings, but like anything else around today, they had to come from _somewhere_.  To follow this white rabbit down the hole just open your history books (and Wikipedia) to find the original legends which are almost always more interesting than the modern derivations.  And who knows, you may find something really surprising, I almost always do.

As a starting point for Elves I figured I’d begin with Tolkein.  I don’t think anybody ever did Elves as well as Tolkein did.  Sure an infinity of novels, comics, manga and computer games have been written now featuring Elf characters, we have *Drizzt Do'urden* and a few other pretty well defined Elves in the world of fantasy literature now.  But to me none of them live up to the sheer “Elfiness” of Tolkeins Noldor, Sindar etc.*

Tolkeins Elves*
Tolkein had many influences, and many major academic papers have been written on them all, but primarily his inspiration for the Elves came from Finnish, Celtic, Welsh, and Norse mythology and folklore (not the same thing).  But the closest relative of Tolkeins Elves are, in my opinion, the Norse _Ljósálfar _"light elves" who were consistently portrayed as human sized and human-like only fairer and wiser, with a knack for making things like rings and swords and friendly with the Gods (particularly the Vanir Frey and Freya) almost identical to Tolkeins Elves in fact.  

And here is where it gets interesting. Because the infamous Vikings were an Iron Age society which had remained essentially frozen in time on the northern fringes of Europe during the centuries that Christianity and the Feudal system were replacing the old type of society on the continent, we got a snap-shot of their ancient culture in the middle of it's transformation to "civilized" cultural norms, thanks to chroniclers and record keepers of the time. It also meant the archeological record was relatively more intact (since it was a thousand years younger), as a result we know far more about the Norse than we did about their earlier very similar barbaric cousins like the Celts, the Ligurians, the Scythians etc.

  More to the point, within this snapshot we can see the evolution from history to mythology and back again, and right at this juncture is where we can find our Elves.

*Álfheimr was a real place*
  There's the first shocking fact.  Strange yes, but apparently true.  The early Viking Sagas describe the actual location of Alfheim as a specific place in Scandinavia, which later evolved into another world on another plane

_The land governed by King Alf was called Alfheim, and all his offspring are related to the elves. They were fairer than any other people... _
  -The Saga of Thorstein, Viking's Son


From the wiki:



> The Ynglinga saga, when relating the events of the reign of King Gudröd (_Guðröðr_) the Hunter relates:Álfheim, at that time, was the name of the land between the _Raumelfr_ ['Raum river', lower parts of the modern Glomma river] and the _Gautelfr_ ['Gaut river', the modern Göta älv].​The words "at that time" indicates the name for the region was archaic or obsolete by the 13th century. The element _elfr_ is a common word for 'river' and appears in other river names. It is cognate with Middle Low German _elve_ 'river' and the name of the river Elbe. The Raum Elf marked the border of the region of Raumaríki and the Gaut Elf marked the border of Gautland (modern Götaland). It corresponds closely to the historical Swedish province of Bohuslän.
> The name Álfheim here may have nothing to do with _Álfar_ 'Elves', but may derive from a word meaning 'gravel layer'.
> However the _The Saga of Thorstein, Viking's Son_ claims that the two rivers and the country was named from King Álf the Old (_Álfr hinn gamli_) who once ruled there, and that his descendants were all related to the Elves and were more handsome than any other people except for the giants, a unique and possibly corrupt reference to giants being especially good looking. The _Sögubrot af Nokkrum_ also mentions the special good looks of the kindred of King Álf the Old.



and



> *Álfheimr* or *Alfheim* (_Elf-home_) is the abode of the _Álfar_ "Elves" in Norse mythology and appears also in northern English ballads under the forms *Elfhame* and *Elphame*, sometimes modernized as *Elfland* or *Elfenland*. It is also an ancient name for an area corresponding to the modern Swedish province of Bohuslän.



  (and also apparently the neighboring Norweigen province of Østfold) Ã˜stfold - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  So yes, it was a real place.  But does that necessarily mean it was mundane or boring?  Perhaps not.  This is in fact a quite interesting part of the world.  Bohuslän and Østfold are literally the heartland of the Vikings.  They are part of a special region of islands and bays called the Viken right near the choke-point where Norway, Denmark and Sweden intersect, the name of which is the actual source of the word "Viking". This is one of the oldest continuously inhabited regions of Europe, possibly as far as 8,000 years, and was one of the key centers of the pre-Viking Vendel culture and the earlier bronze age Norse culture.  It is an area known for many extremely ancient stone circles, like this one in Bohuslän








  And this one in Ostfold






  ..and even older petroglyphs 






  …which were considered important enough to be made into a Unesco World Heritage site.  Bohuslän is today partly deforested, a center of granite carving and fishing, the extensive ancient Oak forests were cut down apparently in the 19th century to supply the fishing industry (Sauruman and his Orcs were inspired by industrialization which Tolkein despised) but firs and pine trees have been replanted.  Meanwhile Østfold still seems largely pristine.






Next:* Gandalf was a real person
*So what was he like?plus much more about the living tradition of Elves in Scandinavia


----------



## Jack7

_This was very enjoyable._
I'll be following this with interest.


----------



## Galloglaich

*So yes, Gandalf was a real person*
  Actually there were several Gandalfs, but one in particular who is relevant to our Elves.
Ãlfheimr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  I wonder if it is a coincidence Tolkein named his hero after this guy from where the Elves historically lived?   I almost felt like I was walking in his footsteps while researching this article 

  From the wiki:


> The _Ynglinga saga_, _Saga of Halfdan the Black_, and _Saga of Harald Fairhair_, all included in the _Heimskringla_, tell of kings of Álfheim at the end of the legendary period:
> 
> 
> *Álf:* His daughter      Álfhild (_Álfhildr_) married King Gudröd the Hunter of Raumaríki      and Westfold      who brought with her half of the territory of Vingulmork       as her dowry. She bore to Gudröd a son named Óláf (_Óláfr_) who was       afterwards named Geirstada-Álf (_Geirstaða-Álfr_) and was the elder       half-brother of Halfdan the Black.
> 
> 
> *Álfgeir:* He was son of      Álf. He regained Vingulmork and placed his son Gandálf (_Gandálfr_)      over it as king.
> 
> 
> *Gandálf:* He was son of      Álfgeir. Since this Gandálf was an older contemporary of Harald Fairhair      and since the historical Viking leaders identified as sons of Ragnar      Lodbrok in some traditions were also contemparies of Harald Fairhair, it      is not impossible that Álfhild, the supposed mother of Ragnar Lodbrok, was      the daughter of this Gandálf as the _Hversu Noregr byggdist_ states.      What is told in the _Heimskringla_ is that after many indecisive      battles between Gandálf and Halfdan the Black, Vingulmork was divided      between them, Halfdan regaining the portion which had been the dowry of      his grandfather's first wife Álfhild. Two sons of Gandálf named Hýsing (_Hýsingr_)      and Helsing (_Helsingr_)      later led a force against Halfdan but fell in battle and a third son named      Haki fled into Álfheim. When Halfdan's son Harald Fairhair succeeded his      father, Gandálf and his son Haki were both part of an alliance of kings      who attacked Harald. Haki was slain but Gandálf escaped. There was further      war between Gandálf and Harald. At last Gandálf fell in battle and Harald      seized all of Gandálf's land up to the Raum Elf river, at that time not      taking Álfheim itself.



  See also
Gandalf Alfgeirsson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  So How's that for a shocker?

*So was Gandalf a big sweaty flea-infested Viking ?*
  This news could be a bit of a downer.  After all, we have come to think of Gandalf as the loveable character from Tolkein, and now from the famous films.   It seems a bit jarring to think of him as some … some … _Viking!_





  [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCxUBOsbl7c"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVUf2-ZG-l4[/ame]

  Actually, the modern conception of a Viking comes primarily from a combination of Victorian fantasy, 19th Century German nationalism and WW II era Nazi propaganda.

  The image is so distorted I think in some ways were Tolkeins Elves more like the real Vikings than our modern image.  For example, they seem to share the* Elf aesthetic* in certain respects.

*The Norse / Elf Aesthetic*

  Consider the famous Urnes Stave Church, a Unesco World Heritage site.








Urnes stave church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  Or this elegant helmet from the Vedndel period, during the time of Alf the Old



(Modern Reproduction of Vendel helm

  Or these other small Vendel Artefacts










Viking Rune Stone

Or these little Viking-era artefacts












The broaches and the face on the left are historical antiques in original condition.

*The Elf: So Fresh, So clean*
Viking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  One thing we know about Elves, they don’t walk around dirty and sloppy all the time like hippies.  So what about our historical Gandalf, was he sweaty and flea infested?  Actually, he probably didn’t have fleas.  Like the Celts and many other European "Barbarians", (and unlike the monks who wrote about them) Vikings were known to be actually quite hygienic.  Combs, ear-spoons, razors and similar articles of toiletry are common finds in Viking-era grave sites.  In fact the cleanliness of the pagan Vikings was a source of irritation to civilized Christians, according to at least one source:

_“…the Danes, thanks to their habit of combing their hair every day, of bathing every Saturday and regularly changing their clothes, are able to undermine the virtue of married women and even seduce the daughters of nobles to be their mistresses.“_
*-English cleric John of Wallingford, prior of St. Fridswides*, *1002 AD*


  The Norse of this era generally washed their faces and hands every day and bathed as often as possible, normally every few days, at least once a week.  Nearly every Norse village or farmstead no matter how small had its bath-house and / or sauna.  They combed and washed their hair and beards regularly and washed both their bodies and their garments with lye soap, a habit they apparently inherited from the Celts who seem to have invented it.  All this attention to personal hygiene led them to suffer somewhat less from two of the common nuisances of the day: lice and fleas, and all extra disease risk that went with them.  (A good reason to stay fresh and clean)

*Norse / Elf culture ?*
  Similarly, while today our biker-like Vikings are often (rather strangely) exclusively associated with an authoritarian image of Odin as All-Father, in reality the Elves in particular were closely associated with Frey, one of the Vanir…




Common modern depiction of Frey, with the Boar-cult he and his sister were often associated with




Famous artifact depicting Frey in his characteristic perpetual state of manhood.

  …which was apparently an earlier cult than the more famous Aesir.  In the Poetic Edda of Snorri Sturlson the Aesir and the Vanir fight a war, which ends in a truce involving the exchange of hostages (some of whom were killed by the Vanir when they believe they were betrayed)  This apparently reflected an uneasy truce between the two tribal sects and corresponding political factions, which has been largely forgotten in our modern simplification of the cartoon Viking.  For example a lot of people today forgot that the Vanir Goddess Freyja, who was extremely popular and remained so long after official conversion to Christianity, was able to claim fully half of the warriors who died in battle- Half of Norse warriors who died in battle went to Odin’s hall Valhalla which we know so well, but few people today know that the other half went to *Sessrúmnir*, Freyja’s party palace (known to be a favorite hang out of Elves, according to the Sagas).





*Odin:* the creepy, devious, overbearing and perpetually angry All-Father. Into betrayal, hangings and gibbets, friends with two corpse-eating crows.





*Freyja*, literally a sex goddess, into lust, magic, dancing, poetry, and drinking mead, hangs around with valkyries and elves.  I know where I'd rather go to spend eternity.

  By contrast, we know from the Sagas that Odin in particular was actually not a popular God during the pagan Viking times except with would-be Kings and Berzerkers.  There are few if any shrines to him and very few artifacts associated with his worship remain (unlike the hundreds of Thors hammer pendants which were found in profusion all over Scandinavia) He seems to have risen to higher prominence as an underground anti-hero ironically after conversion to Christianity.

  Vikings were also far more chaotic and elf-like in their politics as well.   Political power in Viking Scandinavia was in what was called a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thing_(assembly) Thing, a combination county  faire, legislature, high court, tribal assembly and general election. Gradually toward the end of the Viking age the Thing was overshadowed by new Monarchies, though in Iceland, where they tried to preserve the old-school traditions a bit longer, this became the foundation of one of Europes oldest ever Republics, the All-Thing, founded in 930 AD.  

  And unlike in Rome or Greece, women were allowed to attend !



			
				Sidebar said:
			
		

> :
> One famous anecdote captures the Norse attitude toward authority quite well.  During negotiations before the treaty of St Claire Sur Epte in 911 AD, in which Rolf the Ganger (Rolf the Walker, so named because he was too big to ride a horse) and his Vikingeleg (Viking band) were granted the City of Rouen and part of the district of Nuestria, which later became the powerful Duchy of Normandy.
> 
> Legend has it that when this treaty was nearly completed, Rollo was informed of the standard practice of the requirement of kissing the kings foot.  At first refusing in disbelief, after being explained that the act was considered a vital gesture which could not be foregone, he finally ordered a henchman to perform the act.  The henchman approached the King, but rather than stoop to kiss the royal foot, grabbed the Charles by his ankle and raised it so high that he fell off his throne.







			
				Sidebar said:
			
		

> Bohuslän like other parts of Scandinavia, was broken up into small political units called 's hundreds, which originally derived from the older concept of  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_(country_subdivision)#Other_terms ] *wapentake*, where all able bodied fighting members of the tribe gathered to vote (and you couldn’t vote if you didn’t show up armed).  This tradition was widespread in ancient Europe continued in certain areas such as some parts of Switzerland (including the Canton of Appenzell) to this very day.  The Hundreds of Bohuslän were:
> 
> 
> Bullaren Hundred
> Inland Fräkne Hundred
> Inland Northern Hundred
> Inland Southern Hundred
> Inland Torpe Hundred
> Kville        Hundred
> Lane        Hundred
> Orust Eastern Hundred
> Orust Western Hundred
> 
> 
> Sotenäs Hundred
> Stångenäs Hundred
> Sörbygden Hundred
> Tanum        Hundred
> Tjörn Hundred
> Tunge        Hundred
> Vette        Hundred
> Hisingen




   So our Gandalf may not have been quite the sweaty authoritarian biker we envision.

*Norse Elves: Not as chaste as Tolkeins*
  Tolkein was an extremely devout Catholic and his chaste and calm elves were somewhat Angelic in character.  Not so the Scandinavian Alfar, who while they did have a bit more dignity than the average human Viking, were decidedly pagan and generally a much more raw and lusty type of Elf than Tolkeins Noldorin.  The Sagas are full of stories of the Alfar carousing, sleeping around, drinking to excess and getting in fights.  Crossing an Elf, as with any fairies whether they be in Ireland, Germany, Russia or Finland, was a dangerous habit because these people would hold a grudge and were very resourceful.  Please one on the other hand, whether with a nice roll in the hay, a clever poem, a some beer and a nice meal or a valuable gift, and they will often return the favor in a very “old school” way.

  The latter tradition lives on to this day in Scandinavia as the Álfablót (Elf-Sacrifice): ÃlfablÃ³t - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

_Skålgropar_, a particular kind of petroglyph found in Scandinavia, were known in older times as _älvkvarnar_ (elven mills), pointing to their believed usage to provide little treats for the Elves, who would presumably return the favor.  This tradition was documented to have continued in Scandinavia until at least the 19th Century.  (A recent survey in Iceland revealed 80% of the population believed in Elves)

  The locals don’t like to talk about it much, but here are some photos of _älvkvarnaI _was able to find after a long search (and some help from some Swedish HEMA fighters I know):













  To this day in Scandinavia, according to local folklore Dryad like creatures such as the Huldra, remain to haunt the woods,  (a Huldra being a sexually voracious she-troll said to be both beautiful and elegantly dressed, other than having a foxes tail, to which it is wisest not to bring uncouth attention lest you annoy them.  If you are polite and friendly on the other hand, you may find them friendly too…)




Modern conception of a Huldra, from the wiki

*The real Gandalf: probably not a wizard.*
  Speaking of Magic, our historical Gandalf was very likely not a Wizard.  That isn’t to say he definitely wasn’t.  

  The reason why it’s unlikely is that Magic in Viking Age Scandinavia on-back was almost exclusively the purview of women. Norse magic is called Seidth or Seidr or Seid, and could as a general rule only be practiced by women.  It may have involved female sexual practices.  This did not apparently stop Odin from learning it, something Loki mocked him for during a famous confrontation recorded in the Poetic Edda.

Seid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  There are numerous female Wizards depicted in the Icelandic sagas, far too many to mention here, but it's worth noting that Scandinavian sorceresses were not just a thing of mythology.  Arguably the single most famous Viking archeological site, and without a doubt the finest Viking ship ever unearthed, was the famous Oseburg ship burial. 








Detail of dragon head prow from Oseburg ship

Oseberg ship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  This was a burial of two woman, apparently a high-status sorceress and her servant or companion.  The Lady was buried with a wand, and marijuana seeds.  Norse sorceresses were known by the somewhat evocative name of a *Völva*.  
VÃ¶lva - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia









  Another famous burial of a Volva included an iron wand and an expensive pendant depicting Freyja and her famous necklace, the *Brísingamen *(which was made by dwarves Freyja had to sleep with to get them to build it)

  It is just possible Gandalf was a Wizard though.  There were a few rather manly semi-historical characters who practiced magic, including the infamous Egil Skallagrimson, one of Icelands national heroes and a man who makes several lists of the deadliest people in history.   Egils saga records Egil casting several spells, including a curse aimed directly at his principle rival Erik Bloodaxe, King of Norway, and his wife Gunnhild, who was herself a famous witch.

*The Norse / Elf Weapon: alternative to Elf-Ninjas?*
  Finally, our modern fantasy interpretation of Tolkeins Elves, including the films which I liked a great deal, seem to have invented a curious kind of samurai type weaponry for the Elves, I suspect probably since the perception of European (let alone Viking) weapons being too crude and clumsy for such graceful people.  

  Needless to say, as the author of the Codex Martialis, an avid historical martial artist and owner of a few high quality historically accurate sword replicas myself, this is a pet peeve of mine.  Because of course the reality was far different.  The Vikings and their Vendel era predecessors had some absolutely first rate swords, at least as sophisticated and effective, not to mention beautiful, as anything in the world at that time (including in Asia)

  Vendel sword



(original)

  Since the original is 1300 years old, some Modern reproductions can help us grasp what it looked like “back in the day”



fancy enough for an Elf?



A couple more Viking swords (replicas) from Patrick Barta of Templ, who does some of the most historically precise reproductions from this period available anywhere in the world (well worth it if you have a lot of money and the patience for a fairly long waiting list)  








A truly elfin blade, in my opinion.

  12th Century Sword, axe and Spear found in Finland  (An original: Keep in mind it’s 800 years old which causes a bit of rust)







  10th Century sword from a womans Grave, also from Finland




  ..here is a modern replica of it by Rob Miller of Castle Keep:

Castle Keep, Isle of Skye - Fine Handcrafted Blades








_“The central part of their blades, cunningly hollowed out, appears to be grained with tiny snakes, and here such varied shadows play that you would believe the shining metal to be interwoven with many colours.” _ 

-5th century Roman Diplomat and author Cassiodorus, describing pattern welded sword made by the Teutonic Warni tribe.
 
  As you may have noticed from the photos, many weapons from this era were made with a very sophisticated pattern welding technique (often mistaken for "Damascus Steel") which was a way to combine high and low carbon steel to make swords of superlative quality.  The Norse called this the “Serpent in the Steel” or the "Dragon in the Steel", and normally you couldn’t see the pattern unless the sword was etched with a mild acid (which was sometimes done with tanic acid, vinegar or urine) but could always be detected when you thrust it into the snow and then blew across the blade to warm it with your breath... the “serpent” pattern would appear for a moment then fade away.

  Now if this isn’t sufficiently Magical for Elves in your campaign then you probably prefer WoW to DnD 

http://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/110-viking_sword/110-damask_blade.jpg
    Detail (URL only)

TEMPL: Making of weapons - blades
Pattern Welded Swords


----------



## ArmoredSaint

The account you present of the norse as cleanly people is strikingly at odds with the impression of Ibn Fadlan, who notes that, while they comb their hair and are concerned with their appearance, they are otherwise quite unclean in their habits:



> They cannot, of course, avoid washing their faces and their heads each day, which they do with the filthiest and most polluted water imaginable. I shall explain. Every day the slave-girl arrives in the morning with a large basin containing water, which she hands to her owner. He washes his hands and his face and his hair in the water, then he dips his comb in the water and brushes his hair, blows his nose and spits in the basin. There is no filthy impurity which he will not do in this water. When he no longer requires it, the slave-girl takes the basin to the man beside him and he goes through the same routine as his friend. She continues to carry it from one man to the next until she has gone round everyone in the house, with each of them blowing his nose and spitting, washing his face and hair in the basin.http://www.uib.no/jais/v003ht/03-001-025Montgom1.htm#_ftn26



http://www.uib.no/jais/v003ht/03-001-025Montgom1.htm#_ftn26


----------



## Galloglaich

ArmoredSaint said:


> The account you present of the norse as cleanly people is strikingly at odds with the impression of Ibn Fadlan, who notes that, while they comb their hair and are concerned with their appearance, they are otherwise quite unclean in their habits:




All I can say, everything I wrote in the article above is sourced.  The comment by John of Wallingford for example complaining about Vikings bathing every week and changing their clothes every day was recorded in his _*Chronica Joannis Wallingford *_which is in turn reprinted in this book:

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Church-Historians-England-Chronicles-Chronicle/dp/1432696521/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231049314&sr=8-2[/ame]

which is also scanned online here: 

http://books.google.com/books?id=aiADAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA23&dq=%22The+Church+historians+of+England%22+Wallingford&as_brr=1#PPA24,M1


As for Fadlan, as the Wiki notes,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking#Uncleanliness

Ibn Fadlans principle objection was that they weren't using running water to clean with, which is a strict rule in Islam, and that they were using gold vessels which are considered unclean by Islamic law.  If Fadlan saw you drinking out of a gold cup or taking a bath in a bathtub you would also be considered unclean for the same reasons.  (especially if you were washing down a meal of shrimp and a ham sandwich)

Allso keep in mind Fadlan was observing a campsite on the side of a river, not a permanent dwelling.   A camp is a camp, and like modern people, (unlike 9th Centrury Arabs), I suspect hygiene rules for pagan Norsemen would be basic guidelines rather than strict religious taboos.  As for blowing their noses in the water, I kind of doubt it but I wasn't there ... 

By contrast, another Arab writer *Ibn Rustah*, who visited the town Novgorod, specifically reported that they were very clean, as did all the other Arab and Persian chroniclers who traveled to Scandinavia in this period.  

Ahmad ibn Rustah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of course I'm not an anthropologist or an historian, I'm basically just sharing what I've read (not just in Wikipedia, I've got 7 books on the Vikings and a box full of magazine articles).  But it was a very long time ago so our concept of what went on then will never be precisely the reality, there is definitely room for different opinions as to what these folks were really like.

G.


----------



## DarenCommons

Once again, these articles are really amazing.  You should write a book, or at least publish this as its own website.  Thank you for your work.


----------



## Galloglaich

DarenCommons said:


> Once again, these articles are really amazing.  You should write a book, or at least publish this as its own website.  Thank you for your work.




I did write a book, called Codex Martialis, available now as a PDF at DrivethroughRpG for $8 

Seriously though some of this stuff will probably end up in an academic article at some point, I'm still compiling research for an essay on a somewhat overlapping subject.  This RPG stuff is a bit of a tangent I find a lot of fun, kind of a guilty pleasure for me.  

But I sincerely hope it inspires gamers and enhances peoples gaming experience.  I think history (and real folklore) has so much to add to the world of RPG's it's not even funny.  I think Gary Gygax and a lot of people involved in gaming in the early days knew that, but somewhere along the line we forgot.  The resources we have now to find information on the internet are staggering, exponentially more than anyone had in the 70's.  We could really do a lot more with it.

Anyway, thanks a lot for the compliment, I'm really glad you enjoyed the 'blog', it was a lot of work putting it together. 

G.


----------



## Daern

Galloglaich said:


> I think Gary Gygax and a lot of people involved in gaming in the early days knew that, but somewhere along the line we forgot.  The resources we have now to find information on the internet are staggering, exponentially more than anyone had in the 70's.  We could really do a lot more with it.
> G.




I quite agree with this sentiment.


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## Yair

Excellent thread. Thanks for sharing and putting togeher all these great posts.


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## Galloglaich

*Mondays Mercenaries*

*Mondays Mercenaries*

Every Monday I'm going to try to do a small post on this thread with some cool historical mercenaries which you can use as inspiration for fighter types (or bad guys or NPCs or whatever) for your campaign.

Todays Monday Mercenary is the 

*Gallowglass Warrior*

Our best idea of what they looked like comes from this early 16th Century print by Albrecht Durer





Starting from the left, the first three guys are Gallowglass, the last two are Kern (light infantry / squires) wearing specific type of haricuts which were eventually outlawed by the British. 

Gallowglass were from a mixture of Scottish / Norse stock, the descendents of Viking invaders and Gaelic locals in the Western Scottish Islands like the Hebrides. Starting in the 13th Century they used to hire themselves out every summer, mostly to native Irish Lords (and at least once famously, to Scottish King Robert the Bruce) to fight in various campaigns, only to return to their islands in the fall (if they survived) to harvest their fields.

They were extremely effective fighters who contributed to the gradual erosion of British power in Ireland until Elizabethan times, and known for never surrendering. As one British Knight Sir Anthony St Leger described it put it in 1540:

_"These sort of men be those that do not lightly abandon the field, but bide the brunt to the death."_

There are good articles on the Gallowglass here

http://home.earthlink.net/~rggsibiba/html/galloglas/gallohist.html 

and here

Galloglaich - History and Equipment

and a shorter summary here

BBC - Northern Ireland - A Short History

The Gallowglass were specifically associated with two types of weapon, an open ring-hilted variant of the Claymore, which has been reproduced by at least three replica makers incluing most recently by the high-end Albion Armorers






http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/gallowglass-photos.htm

One is now made by Gen 2




http://www.imperial-weapons.com/Generation2/Ip-001-1.JPG

And Windlass / MRL made a nice looking one which I think they may have discontinued




http://www.aurorahistoryboutique.com/products/A000052.jpg

You can read a bunch more about these type of swords here (includes rare photos of original antiques the above replicas were based on):

myArmoury.com - Open Ring Irish Swords


And they also liked to carry a large two-handed axe called a Sparth Axe which seemed to be something like a Bardiche, and was apparently descended from the Huskarl type two-handed axe of the original Norse settlers.





Allegedly this was the same type of weapon very famously used by an unarmored Robert the Bruce to split the head of (fully armored) English knight Henry De Bohun with one blow at the battle of Bannockburn in 1314, the same incident depicted erroneously in "Braveheart"


They also interestingly wore Mail armor (i.e. "Chainmail"), through the time when pretty much everywhere else in Europe soldiers had moved on to Plate armor, and they continued to do so into the Gunpowder age where most infantry in particular had increasingly abandoned armor.  It seemed to prove valuable for the Galloglass in close combat (Typically, 15th - 16th century battles in Ireland would be fought with a volley or two of gunfire followed by a charge and close-combat).  It's quite likely that some of the mail shirts they were using were passed down from their original Viking ancestors.

Gallowglass were tough heavy infantry, elite soldiers of fortune many of whom traveled the world as they also fought as mercenaries on the continent in all kinds of places, as well as eventually (after Cromwells conquest of Ireland) for the Spanish Crown in as exotic regions as China the Philipines ... where there was even a possibility of encounters between these guys and Japanese Ronin (Samurai) who worked as mercenaries for local Waco pirates... but thats a subject for another Monday...

Hopefully this may inspire someone to make an interesting character or NPC in their campaign. And most importantly, now you know where I get my name 

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

*Bathing: a History*

Related to the earlier comment on cleanliness, this is a very good article on bathing before the 17th Century, which will probably surprise a lot of people.

Bathing: A history


----------



## Galloglaich

*Fighting anecdote about Skanderbeg*

Ran across a really cool anecdote today about Skanderbeg, one of the guys from the O.P. "Dilbert in the Dungeon" list:

*Skanderbeg* aka Gjergj Kastrioti, 1405-1468 (63 years old) CG
Albanian nobleman, Ottoman war leader, Albanian rebel, guerilla leader, warrior (national hero of Albania)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skanderbeg







Reprinted from this website:

Saber combat; Turkey, 1436 « FencingClassics’s Blog



			
				fencing classics blog said:
			
		

> This page from an unidentified German chronicle details the main events at the Ottoman court right before 1439. This passage introduces “Georgius Castriotus, whom the Turks call Skanderbeg” and a “wonderous fight at the Court of the Grand Turk Amurathis”, which occurred when Skanderbeg was 21. Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg was born May 6, 1405, which would place this event squarely in 1436.
> “A man from Tartary came to Adrianopolis, who advertised himself as the greatest of all fencers and challenged the entire Ottoman court, if there were someone who would fight him for life and body. This was the manner of fight: Each was to appear naked, with only the modesty covered, and try his luck with just the drawn sword, without shield or targe. When the Turks heard this foolish creature, nobody felt like taking him up on it, and there was much laughing that this braggart was to make off with the prize uncontested. To counter this, Amurathis brought forth royal rewards, to see if he couldn’t move someone to venture a round with the Tartar.
> “But this cruel type of fighting with naked body surpassed the preciousness of the reward. As this stranger was about to reach for the treasure, Georgius Castriotus stepped forth and called, ‘Halt, Tartar! You shall not have these jewels without blood. You will have to kill me for them first. Know that you have found the man you have been looking for.’
> “And thus they were both brought before Amuranthis, and the place of combat was determined. When they had removed all their clothes, even the shirts, two sabers of equal length and weight were handed to them.
> “The Tartar struck first at his opponent. Skanderbeg struck his attack aside with his left hand, with his right he cut his throat and neck half through, so that the Tartar fell dead to the floor. Then he severed the neck entirely and took the head and carried it, naked and splattered with the blood of his enemy, to King Amuranthis. The royal reward was his, and Amuranthis praised his fortitude and that he had preserved the honor of the court.”




Rather like a real-life Conan, Skanderbeg who as a child had been a hostage of the Turks, went on from this desperate gladiator style pit-fighting display to become a prominent General in the Ottoman army, then a rebel and very successful anti-Ottoman guerilla leader in Europe, and ultimately the liberator and national hero of Albania.

G.


----------



## Gentlegamer

Is there a Thread of the Year award?

This thread gets my nomination for 2008.


----------



## El Mahdi

Gentlegamer said:


> Is there a Thread of the Year award?
> 
> This thread gets my nomination for 2008.




Here, Here!  I'll second this!

Awesome thread.



P.S.: I picked up your _Codex Martialis_ from RPGNow.  I'm only part way into it, but so far what I've read is some really good stuff (I've already started using a version of your Martial Pool concept).  Great thread and great book.  Nice job.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Gentlegamer said:


> Is there a Thread of the Year award?
> 
> This thread gets my nomination for 2008.




Thirded.


----------



## The Shaman

To those who consider historical gaming "boring," I offer this thread as Exhibit No. 1 in rebuttal.


----------



## Jack7

> This thread gets my nomination for 2008.





I agree.
It's an impressive piece of work.


----------



## Galloglaich

Back before DnD got kind of homogenized and Politically Correct and changed the Class name, the people in your party who were good at picking locks and stabbing enemies in the back weren't just generic specialist “DPS” strikers, they were called *Thieves*. 





Not just eccentric acrobats...

*Thieves* like Conan was a thief, like Cugel the Clever was a thief. Like Fafhred and the Grey Mouser were thieves. Not just some alternative lifestyle “rogue” who has a pierced nose and can do cartwheels... but a genuinely_ shady _character who stole things for a living that you had to keep your eye on. The Thief was one of the most versatile and interesting archetypes in fantasy literature. 


The old DnD thief class was largely based on the criminal underworld of Elizabethan London. If you want to find out more about that, here is a good academic starting place:

*The Canting Crew: London's Criminal Underworld, 1550-1700* (Crime, law, & deviance series) 
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Canting-Crew-Criminal-Underworld-1550-1700/dp/0813510228/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231361403&sr=8-2[/ame]

Gary Gygax obviously had done a lot of historical research on the Thief and had even included their secret language or _argot _into the game: the Thieves Cant. The OE DnD actually had a pretty well developed Thief class, even if the rules were a little broken, and it’s a shame so much of that was stripped out. In fact I suspect I wasn’t the only person who felt that way because no other person than *Gary Gygax* himself wrote a somewhat flawed (especially the awful artwork) but still highly useful D20 Supplement on this very subject also called 

*The Canting Crew* :
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Canting-Crew-Counter-Pack/dp/1931275084/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231453939&sr=8-1[/ame]
..apparently inspired by the academic book of (nearly) the same name.

It’s worth getting if you can find it, among other things it includes an entire dictionary of the Thieves Cant and several pages of cool little hobo marks, secret symbols which criminals, gypsies and hobos used historically to tell each other about places they were traveling to, where there were cops, where there easy marks, dangerous animals, free food, etc. etc. great flavor for your game. Plus some cool spells and an entire urban criminal hierarchy if you want to use that.

Another real world Medieval criminal organization was the *Garduna*, a Spanish criminal guild which did a lot of dirty work for the Church in the 15th -16th Century, in fact they became kind of a murder incorporated for the Inquisition. They make a great archetype for an Assassins Guild for any RPG game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garduna

The Garduna

The Spanish Garduna is also supposed to be the direct ancestor of the modern Neoplolitan Comorra (i.e. mafia) and came via the Spanish occupation, the Sicilian Mafia may go even further back, and has at least legendary origins in a resistance movement starting in the "Sicilian Vespers" incident in 1282 against a French King but may have also had some ties to Spain a well. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camorra#Background
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Vespers

_*Pirates*_
In addition to Thieves Guilds and Assassins Guilds, Medieval Europe also had Pirates, and not just down on the Barbary Coast. 
One of the more colorful examples were the so called 'Victual Brothers', a semi-criminal Pirates "guild" who operated in the North Sea were they were the arch-nemesis of the Hanseatic League for a good while, depending on who you read they were like Robin Hood or like Attilla the Hun 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victual_Brothers
They were replaced by another outfit called the Likedeelers, their name again evocative of a robin hood image they were trying to establish. One persons pirate is another persons freedom fighter and visa versa, from what I've read about the Victual brothers they could have been seen as either depending on who was doing the talking. 



> The successors of the Victual Brothers gave themselves the name Likedeelers, which means to share in equal parts, which they even did with the poor population along the coast. They expanded their field of activities into the North Sea and along the Atlantic coastline, raiding Brabant, France and as striking as far south as Spain.



This is common behavior of some (but by no means all) pirates bandits through the ages to ingratiate themselves with the local population so they can have a support base, (the same thing is going on in Somalia today in fact). Which does put them in that gray area to some degree especially when the people they are robbing aren't always the most pristine saintly types themselves. 
Their most famous leader was a remarkable fellow named Klaus Stortebeker, who though a genuine historical character could easily have walked right out of Warhammer FRPG. His name meant he can drink a four pint glass of beer in one gulp.





Apparently this is what a real pirate looks like (storebekers face reconstructed from his skull)

Klaus Störtebeker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A statue of Stortebecker in Hamburg:






Though many of the Victual Brothers were captured and Stortebekker was killed, this by no means put an end to the piracy in the North Sea. In the 15th Century their black banner was carried on by a truly remarkable Frisian Bandit named Grotte Peter or Grotte Pier (Great Peter or Long Peter) who is one of the guys from the OP “Dilbert in the Dungeon” list.









http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pier_Gerlofs_Donia


This guy made Jack Sparrow look like tweety bird, and rated a more impressive statue than Stortebeker. Among other things he sunk 28 ships and organized a peasant army to fight off the Holy Roman Empire for ten years.


So if you wanted a more realistic basis for your Thief or were ever wondering how a pirate could fit into a typical DnD Medieval fantasy world, now you have a few ideas you can work with…

G.


----------



## El Mahdi

The _Victual Brothers/Likedeelers_ were only successful because they didn't have to contend with _*Ninjas*_.


Also, is that a can of beer on the ground in front of Stortebeker's statue?  Now that's a fitting tribute!


Seriously though, another great post/installment.


----------



## Galloglaich

Thanks man.

One of these days I am going to in fact tackle Ninjas for this thread ... thats going to be a tough one 

Here is a bit more on the Thieves Cant I was actually kind of rushed when I posted that.  The Thieves Cant in particular is really cool and fun to introduce into your game

Wiki

Thieves' cant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are several alleged Cant-to-English dictionaries online, here are a few examples:

The Thieves Guild - The Thieves Cant - Simple - Cant to English

Cool looking website for all things thievish for DnD actually

The Thieves Guild

Another even more extensive Cant dictionary

Canting Dictionary, letter A

Real or not, these are a lot of fun to browse through.  Going through some of these terms gives you some ideas how rich the criminal underworld really was (if only in Elizabethan imagination) and how incredibly many specialist criminal jobs you could use in your campaign (many of these scream Adventure Hook) ...  a few of my favorites:


ANGLERS, _alias_ HOOKERS; petty Thieves, who have a Stick with a Hook at the End, wherewith they pluck Things out of Windows, Grates, _&c._ _Make ready your Angling Stick_; a Word of Command used by these petty Villains, to get ready the Stick with which they perform their Pranks, and as a Signal of a Prey in Sight. In the Day-time they beg from House to House, to spy best where to plant their Designs, which at Night they put in Execution.


KNIGHT _of the Road_, the chief Highwayman, best mounted and armed, the stoutest Fellow among them.


 KIDLAYS, an Order of Rogues, who meeting a Youth with a Bundle or Parcel of Goods, wheedle him by fair Words, and whipping Six-pence into his Hand, to step on a short and sham Errand, in the mean Time run away with the Goods.

BARNACLES, the Irons worn in Goal by Felons. A Pair of Spectacles is also called Barnacles; as _I saw the Cuffin Quire with his Nose Barnacled, making out the Cove's Dispatches_, i.e. I saw the Justice of Peace with his Spectacles on making out his _Mittimus_.

PRAD LAY:  the act of cutting the saddlebags of horses in order to steal their contents.


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## Galloglaich

*The Knight and his Lance*

*The Knight and his Lance - Pt I of III*






The fuzzy part you often see just under the business end of a lance is to soak up the blood so it doesn't make the whole thing too slippery to hold.


On another forum, someone asked "How would a lance be used in War?"

It's actually a pretty good question, and one tied closely to the history of the Knight. We all know the Lance was the principle weapon of the knight just like the javelin (pilum) was the principle weapon of the Roman Legionairre. 

A Lance was any specialized thrusting spear for use from horseback. Thats all it means. It is a specialist weapon which evolved gradually from the more basic general-purpose spear, just like it's cousins the pike and the javelin. Like the pike and the javelin, the lance seeemed to be most effective when used en-masse, though in smaller groups. Knights were typically deployed in small units or squadrons that would repeatedly charge into and through (or sometimes around the edges of) an enemy formation, inexorably breaking it up like the blows of a battering ram. 

Until Medieval times cavalry used spears or lances which would typically be held overhand, and often from horses that were running at slower gaits than a gallop. Using them couched to charge straight into enemy forces seems to have started around the 11th Century, coinciding with various improvements in horse harness, saddles, stirrups etc. which allowed a rider to remain on horseback through the heavy shock of collision.




the European knight emerged at or shortly after the battle of Hastings, the innovations of the couched lance and the new types of saddle refining the armored heavy cavalry warrior into a truly lethal killing machine.

So envision 20 armored guys charging in a pretty tight group, usually with armored horses, with lance points anywhere from 12'-18' out in front of them. This was very hard to stand against.

Not all heavy Cavalry of this type were knights, a knight (or reitter or chevalier or miles) meant a professional warrior of independent means, who essentially owned their own horses, armor, and weapons. There were always also a parallel type of warrior armed and equipped by a Lord, the latter sometimes called Sergeants or Men At arms, were preferred by some military leaders because they were more disciplined.

Lances broke or were dropped pretty quickly and heavy cavalry would wheel back to a support base to rearm with more lances. That was the job of a squire or some other less formal type of attendant. The number usually carried was three lances. Extra horses would also usually be available, in Medieval times heavy cavalry would usually have at least the very expensive warhorse used for fighting (a destrier or a courser or a palfrey) another horse for traveling, usually an ambler, and another horse or a mule or a burro for carrying baggage.

*The (Very) Ancient origins of the Knight*




Modern re-enactors conception of a Sassanid Cataphract 

The origins of the knight seem to go further back than most people realize, at least to Parthian Cataphracts in the 3rd Century BC. The Romans developed t heir own version called Clibinari ("oven men" due to the heat of the armor) from the 2nd Century BC. These were feared and highly effective and remained an important part of the Roman military in the East until the fall of the Byzantine empire. 

One roman observer described Iranian heavy cavalry thus:
_"The Persians opposed us serried bands of mail-clad horsemen in such close order that the gleam of moving bodies covered with closely fitting plates of iron dazzled the eyes of those who looked upon them, while the whole throng of horses was protected by coverings of leather."_





If you didn't know better you would think this was a relief of a 13th Century European knight rather than a 4th Century Persian...





This is from a French reenactor group which seems to have excellent standards: 
[Collectif de reconstitution de matériels de Terre Sainte au XIIe siècle] : La druzhina du Prince

The Norse / Slavic Rus Druhzina* of the 8th-12th Century fought _both _with lances in the Western European style _and_ with bows in the Steppe / Hun / Mongol style simultaneously, which is interesting, as well as carrying maces and swords or sabers. They are the only example I know of who fought as both archers and heavy cavalry.

*The rise of heavy cavalry in Western Europe*




Charlemagnes conquest and brief unification of Continental Europe was achieved largely through the use of armored heavy cavalry. These were not yet considered knights however (though they were kind of made into knights retroactively in Medieval ballads many centuries later).

There was also a paraellel development of heavy cavalry in the West. Rather famously Sassanian (Iranian) heavy cavalry were garrissoned in Britain which some speculate, on rather thin evidence, may have influenced Romano-Celtic war leader Artorius (aka King Arthur) and his war bands.

More well documented is the link between heavy cavalry and the elite members of Celtic and later Germanic tribes, the latter forming something called a "Commitatus" of elite warriors who would act as the personal bodyguard of a chieftain. There is also Alexanders the Greats elite companion cavalry though that was before real stirrups or fighting saddles so nobody knows how they really fought exactly.

The first documented major use of heavy cavalry by European barbarians was the famous battle of Adrianople in 378 AD, in which Visigoth cavalry, having equipped themselves with Roman armor and horses during an uprising, successfully overran the previously all-but-invincible Roman infantry and killed Emperor Valens.

From that point on in Europe cavalry very gradually began to get the upper hand over infantry during the Migration Period (i.e. "The Dark Ages"), which coincided with a very gradual shift from tribal forms of social organization toward a more Roman type of feudal system called Latifundia, in which the common tribesmen were obligated to remain on their land and ultimately became tenant farmers or serfs. The decline of the free tribal warrior coincided with the decline in the quality and importance of infantry in the European battlefield, and the rise of the knight. The last really effective infantry in the Early Middle Ages were probably the Vikings, and their power was broken at the Battle of Hastings in 1066 AD.

After the Battle of Hastings the knight as a new form of cavalry capable of wiping out almost any opposition. While the original Eastern Cataphract hadn't changed in 700 years, the new European Knight was evolving rapidly. By the end of the 11th Century European mail armor was beginning to creep toward cap-a-pied (head to foot) protection, new weapons were being developed (like two-handed swords) along with new saddles and horse harness, and special breeds of warhorses. The system of charging into battle in tight squadrons or 'battles', was beginning to coalesce into a fine tuned killing process. 

Knights proved to be essentially unstoppable shock troops. In this battles during this period (roughly 1066-1300) in open terrain even a very small number of knights routinely rout much larger armies. There are many accounts where as few as 200 or 300 knights smashed infantry or light-cavalry forces numbering in the thousands.






During the early Crusades European knights (and other heavy cavalry) proved to be a major shock to the Turks, Arabs, and Byzantines. This terrifying new threat simply could not be faced in direct combat. The only way to deal with them was to feign retreat, shoot arrows at the horses from a distance and keep far away. But this wasn't always possible strategically depending on the type of battle which was being fought, sometimes you simply had to come to grips to win the day.

*(little trivia the word Druzhina made it's way into modern Russian and was the inspiration for the term "Drouges" in the film A Clockwork Orange


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## Galloglaich

*Mondays Mercenaries*

*Mondays Mercenaries *

Todays group is one of the first major mercenary companies to gain significant notoriety in Europe, the Catalan Grand Company, founded in 1302.    They are still well known in Greece and in Spain, but if you live in the USA, Australia or the UK chances are you have never heard of them.  They were one of the more colorful mercenary bands in history and would make fine background material for almost any fantasy RpG campaign  







The Catalan Company achieved fame and success far beyond that of most Mercenaries wildest dreams.  Consisting primarily of  Almogavars, Catalan soldiers from the Pyrennes Mountains between Spain and France, they were lightly armed but hardened in the battles of the Reconquista.  They achieved a reputation sufficient to sell their swords, and were led by a remarkable figure, the redoubtable Mercenary Captain Roger De Flor 






Roger was quite a character.  Starting his career as a sailor on a Templar galley, he soon rose to command the vessel and lead it into combat against the formidable navy of the Ottoman Turks.  Accused of thievery and apostasy for shaking down some Lords who were escaping the siege of Cyprus, he fled to Sicily where he was promptly granted an Admiralty by the King and rejoined the war against the Turks.   After the war Roger was given command of a company of Almogavars, and went with them to the East to offer their services to the Byzantine Emperor in his increasingly desperate struggle against the Ottomans.  Roger apparently hit it off pretty well with his Greek patron, and was promptly married to a Byzantine princess, made a duke and put in charge of the Byzantine Army and the Fleet.  






Roger and the Catalan Company proved no slouches at their jobs, and defeated the Ottoman army, pushing them back to the borders of Armenia and Persia, and lifting a major siege.  But the agreed upon fee was never paid by the crafty Byzantines, leading to a nasty dispute and ultimately Rogers assassination at their hands.  But that wasn't the end of the Catalan Company who were infuriated by Rogers murder.  They challenged the Emperor to a duel, but his only response was to kill their emissaries and order the massacre of all Catalans in the Byzantine Empire.  So in retaliation the Catalan Company went on a rampage against the Byzantines called the "Catalan Revenge" that proved wildly successful, leading to their capture of Athens and Thebes and ultimately conquest of all of Greece, which they then held as their own independent province until 1390, for almost a century!






Many of the amazing adventures of the Catalan grand company were recorded in a Chronicle by  Ramon Muntaner   The Chronicle survives today, in fact thanks to the rather incredible power of the internet you can read a translation of it right here:

http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/muntaner_goodenough.pdf

Hows that for history in your hands?

G.

Some Links:

Catalan Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Roger de Flor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Almogavars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some people dressed up as Almogavars in modern Cataloinia where they remain popular figures :


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## Galloglaich

*The Knight and his Lance, part II of II*

*The Knight and His Lance, Part II of III*




From 1066-1302 this guy was the last word on pretty much everything.

For a while European knights basically were all but unstoppable both at home and abroad, the Crusader kingdoms expanded, the tide of the reconquista began to turn in Spain, and the Feudal system was spread inexorably across Christian Europe as the old tribal communities were disarmed and made into peasants. All this was achieved without using much in the way of tactics in many cases, because the heavy cavalry was so powerful it was almost impossible to cope with. In this period, the knight was the dominant military force arguably in the world.






Riding high- a 12th century knight astride a destrier, a specialized warhorse bred for charging

The high-water mark came toward the end of the 13th century. By this time the Arabs had developed suitable techniques to cope with the European heavy cavalry, still largely by avoiding pitched battles and using their advantage in speed and mounted archers for hit and run attacks with missiles. Clever European war-leaders such as Richard Lionheart counteracted this effectively though by mixing large numbers of fast light cavalry (Turkopoles) and heavy Crossbow infantry in with his ranks of knights, but the initial imbalance had been addressed.





It was new weapons like this Flemish Godendag in the hands of a cobbler or a weaver or a blacksmith which put the breaks on the knightly party 

But it was the commoners of Europe who really put the breaks on knightly power, far earlier than most people realize. There were three major battles in the beginning of the 14th Century in particular which changed the equilibrium. Not coincidentally these took place in the hinterlands of Civilized Europe where the old tribal systems had not completely broken down and the common people remained armed: in the marshy lowlands of Holland at The Battle of Golden Spurs in 1302, in the moors of Scotland at the battle of Bannockburn in 1314, and perhaps most decisively in the high Alps of Switzerland at the Battle of Morgarten in 1315.





Increasingly professional European infantry were a thorn in the Knights side which could never quite be 'Lanced'

The check on the power of the knight resulted from new weapons and tactics that were invented by urban burghers and wild rural tribesmen, New weapons such as the Flemish Godendag and the Swiss Halberd, combined with innovative massed infantry tactics made it possible to finally withstand the knightly charge, and this was a major turning point in European history, heralding the rise of the independent city-states, trading leagues and regional republics which were to form a counterbalance to the feudal monarchies and became a major part of the European landscape from that point onward.

But it was not the end of the knight, it only meant that the knight had to use his lance with a bit more caution and planning. New heavy cavalry tactics and kit kept being invented and countered by new infantry tactics and kit. Knights equipped themselves with head to toe plate armor and even firearms, whereas commoners invented or rediscovered weapons such as the Swiss pike and the pistol and the flail, pioneered by the Hussites of Bohemia in the 15th century. European infantry and cavalry evolved in parallel, sometimes in direct competition, but proved a highly effective combination when facing the armies of other nations. For the first time since the decline of Rome, combined arms warfare was being practiced in Europe.





Late 15th Century German Reitter / Demi-Lancer... by the time fully articulated plate armor arrived, guns and cannon were already a reality on the battlefield and heydey of the knight had already passed, but he was still a formidable adversary and a major part of almost every European army.

But heavy cavalry remained a potent force on the battlefield and continued to evolve, a warrior you could recognize as a knight remained an important role on the battlefield well through the gunpowder era and all the way into the 17th Century, in which the last hurraugh was arguably the Polish Winged Hussars who proved so wildly successful they are credited with the explosive expansion of the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth and numerous critical defeats of the Ottoman Empire including breaking the siege of Vienna.





The 'wings' were probably for protection against lassos, though nobody knows for sure. The Hussars success hinged around new tactics allowing them to spread out to dodge cannonfire until the last minute when they would form up into the charge. 






The Ottoman Turks were no slouches and had formidable heavy cavalry of their own, as can be seen clearly by this sinister looking Turkish armor from the 16th Century





You can make out a spear apparently thrown by a Norman knight in this photo of the Bayeux Tapestry

*Lances and their accessories*
The Lance remained a potent weapon even up to the dawn of the 1st World War. Shorter spears used by heavy cavalry would sometimes also be used overhand to attack either side or even thrown from within the press. And of course there was always light cavalry, everything from demi-lancers who would fight armored but on unarmored horses, to light cavalry which was unarmored and relied principally on javelins. Later incarnations included pistol reitters who were armored as knights but specialized in using pistols and armored crossbow cavalry such as used by the Swiss.






The Lance was a weapon with a finite lifespan in battle and limited utility in close combat, it was a shock weapon used for the initial attack, and extremely effective in breaking formations and enemy morale (and killing people) but it's nature meant that the sidearm was critically important which is why the sword and the saber were so closely associated with heavy cavalry.





In the brutal aftermath after the initial phase of the battle, the sidearm was critical

Other popular sidearms included axes, war hammers and light maces the latter particularly in the East along the steppes. These maces would usually have a thong for weapon retention (always a big deal for cavalry, this also defines most of the principle aspects of the saber from the shape of the blade to the canted grip IMO) were also thrown. 



> *Sidebar: The Lasso*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An important counter weapon used heavily on the steppes by light cavalry against heavy cavalry was the lasso. The Mongols specialized in this and used it successfully at the battle of Liegnitz in Poland against Teutonic knights and the other military orders. I believe it was the reason for the wings on the Polish winged hussars.




Some links:

Cataphract - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Clibanarii - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Demi-lancer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_cavalry
Druzhina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some re-enactor groups:

Galeries - Fief et Chevalerie


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## Jack7

Not only is this good and valuable historical and Role Play gaming research, it's also extremely interesting general research. 

_*You're doing a top-notch job.*_


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## EroGaki

Wow. This thread has to be the most awesome and informative thing I've ever seen on EN World. Keep up the good work!


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## Aus_Snow

Jack7 said:


> Not only is this good and valuable historical and Role Play gaming research, it's also extremely interesting general research.
> 
> _*You're doing a top-notch job.*_





EroGaki said:


> Wow. This thread has to be the most awesome and informative thing I've ever seen on EN World. Keep up the good work!




Uh huh. What these guys said.


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## Galloglaich

Thanks I'm delighted that y'all like the thread.  I hope some of it is useful for peoples campaigns, character backgrounds or game design efforts.  I'm going to try to tie some of this stuff back directly into DnD in my next post (part III of the Knight / Lance blog)  Please chime in if you have any questions or anything to add...

G.


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## Galloglaich

*Knight an his Lance part III of III*

*The Knight and his Lance part III of III*
I'm somewhat limited for time so I'm actually going to subdivide part III of this into two parts...


*A Thirteenth Century Knight in 3.5 DnD*
As popular as the idea is, the Knight is not a common archetype in most RPG games I've played. One rarely encounters anything even vaguely like a real historical Knight as either players or NPCs, though there is the Paladin class and various Doom Knights and etc. prestige classes of course. But these mostly have to do with various magical and quasi-magical abilities, I have rarely seen anyone fighting on horseback or use lances in my (of course very limited) gaming experience in 25 years or so. Just for fun I'd like to see how a somewhat historical knight might work out, perhaps for a lower-magic / lower fantasy type campaign.

Standard 3.5 does give us some room to work with, so lets see what we can come up with.

This should be an entry level knight, so I'll make him 4th level. A knight has to has a significant amount of training and will usually spend some time fighting as a squire before achieving knighthood, so I figure thats around minimum for a knight. I'll give him slightly above average stats, 13s across the board. He'll also have an average amount of Hit Points for his level, 29. 

Looking at the Lance in 3.5 it doesn't look very impressive initially. Only 1d8 Damage, no armor piercing ability since that doesn't really exist in 3.5, no reach to hit bonus but it is a reach weapon which is good, gets x3 damage on crits, and best of all gets double damage in a charge which is very good 2-16 damage is pretty tough in DnD. 


A 13th century knight wouldn't have plate armor since it wasn't invented yet, so he'll have to settle for "chainmail" which isn't as good armor in DnD as it was in real life, but it's decent protection. Of course he'll have a shield and an arming sword as a sidearm (longsword in DnD).

Needles to say our knight would have a warhorse. The warhorse itself would have some kind of barding, but since this is an entry level knight I'll limit that to padded armor. 

Our knight will have some of the very few skills allowed for a fighter, but the only really important one here will be Ride. I think at 4th level he'd be limited to 4 skill ranks? Somebody can correct me on that if I'm wrong (those skills rules are a bit too byzantine for me...) anyway Riding skill 4. +1 for his dex bonus for a +5 on all ride skill checks.

Feats are where it can start getting interesting. I'll give my knight *Mounted Combat*, *Spirited Charge*, *Ride by Attack*, *Weapon Focus: Lance*, *Weapon Specialization: Lance*, and just for fun, *Improved Initiative*.


His Lance gets x2 damage in a charge which is good. With the *Spirited Charge* feat that becomes x3 damage which is even better. The Lance is also a reach weapon too which means the Knight can attack most Large sized or smaller creatures without being in range for a counterattack, which is potentially interesting. This works even better with the *Ride By Attack* Feat which allows them to move (charge), attack, then move again. If I’m reading that correctly it makes the Knight very dangerous indeed.

His warhorse only has a quilted / padded barding, for a total AC of 15. But with the *Mounted Combat* feat the Knight can also make Ride Skill Checks to avoid their mount being hit by an enemy attack. Considering these factors and that a Warhorse is pretty tough anyway (30 HP average) it should be able to hold it’s own in a fight.

So here is our knight now:





4th Level Fighter
Str 13 +1
Int 13 +1
Wis 13 +1
Dex 13 +1
Con 13 +1
Cha 13 +1

*AC: 17 *(Chainmail +5, Shield +1, +1 Dex)
*HP: 29*
*Bab: *4
*Init:* +5
*Lance: *+ 6 TH (4 Bab +1 Str +1 WF) D 1-8+3 (3d8+3 when charging) 6-27 / 15 damage average
*Skills:* Ride 4
*Feats:* Mounted Combat, Spirited Charge, Ride by Attack, Weapon Focus: Lance, Weapon Specialization: Lance, Improved Initiative


This is a pretty tough hombre. Especially if we put our knight in a small formation or 'battle' with two other knights which would be the bare minimum you would see on the battlefield. Now we have 3 guys wheeling riding in formation, capable of hitting enemies for 6-27 damage with reach attacks then taking off on their warhorses with their base speed of 50', and wheeling back around to attack again. Against any target with a relatively low AC they could be expected to do around 40 HP of damage per round, and be pretty hard to attack without reach weapon or missile weapons. Pretty dangerous opponent.


Not a bad start in fact. The only real weakness here is the vulnerability to Magic all fighters have in DnD, and a relatively poor chance of hitting targets (only +6). But perhaps it could be enhanced a bit with some house rules.


Next: How to improve on this basic template


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## Pat

Very nice.

Max skill rank for a 4th level character is actually 7 (level +3, which explains why characters get quadruple skill points at 1st level). Ability scores of 13 across the board isn't slightly above average in 3.5; it's exceptional (15 points higher than the standard NPC using point buy, and 5 points higher than even the standard PC). You might want to consider the standard (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8) or elite (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) arrays. The aristocrat or expert NPC classes might also be worth a look. Help against magic (good Will saves), have more skill points and good class skills, and in the case of the aristocrat higher starting wealth.

I'd also be inclined to tone down the knight. After all, if you start with a vanilla baseline, there's more room to customize unusual knights and make them really stand out. NPC classes, fewer feats (only Ride-by Attack and Mounted Combat are probably required for a knight to feel like a knight), lower level (2nd level is still exceptional), standard array instead of the elite array, etc. Save all those feats that make them combat monsters (specialization, Spirited Charge, etc) for the special ones.

But all that's purely from a game standpoint, so please disregard it if you don't think it fits your vision.

Also, I'd be interested to hear your opinions on the quality of the weapons of the typical knight (masterwork, in D&D), and more on their non-combat capabilities (represented by skills and feats; they weren't just fighting machines, were they?).


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## maddman75

It would seem obvious to me, especially with the comments about the knight needing to establish himself, that the Knight should be a prestige class.  Require riding feats and some skills, the PrC should be mostly fighter-like only with a narrower feat selection and more skill points for those courtly skills.


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## Galloglaich

You both have a point, and it is indeed tempting to make a new class for the knight isn't it?  In fact I agree the Aristocrat is the logical starting point (with a few changes I'll get into shortly).  But my initial goal was to try to make a knight out of an ordinary DnD fighter so we could see what that looked like.

I don't think 4th level is too high to achieve basic knighthood, though you could probably get away with a second or third level fighter, slightly higher for an Aristocrat.  I think you would need to have *spirited charge*, *ride by attack* and *mounted combat* feats at a minimum though, as well as a few ranks of ride skill and enough money to afford armor and a warhorse (which isn't too much in the DnD economy), as well as martial weapon, armor and shield proficiency.

The third or fourth level fighter does jibe historically because a knight (reitter, cavallier, caballero et al., usually listed as 'Lances' in medieval records) was typically considered the equivalent of 10 - 30 common infantry soldiers.  This is repeated in records of hundreds of battles and wars, for example when listing the contributions of a given town or lord to an army, 100-200 'lances' may be listed alongside 3,000 4,000 infantry.  The typical ratio was around that ballpark, though of course it varied a lot and there were various types of specialist infantry who were also elite soldiers (genoese crossbowmen, swiss halberdiers etc.) you can get an idea what I mean by looking at some of the Osprey books on knights from different periods or on various medieval battles, or by looking at more serious academic analysis of medieval warfare like Hans Delbruck.  I'll recommend a couple of references at the end of the post.

But before we start looking at how to remake a knightly class or whether to make it a standard player class or a prestige class, I'd like to try to answer your question on weapons and also open up the issue of warhorses a bit, because these are two ways a knight can be customized in interesting ways.

In real life a knights mount was of critical importance.  It was more valuable in some cases than his armor.  A strong horse might improve your damage from a lance strike for instance, an agile one improve the odds of that ride skill check to avoid hits, a fast one obviously allows you to catch fleeing enemies or most important of all, ride away from the battlefield yourself should the day not go your way, which always was one of the principle advantages of being in the cavalry as opposed to the infantry.  

Here are a few of the most famous types of knightly mounts:

*Destrier *

The Destrier was the muscle car drag racer of  the medieval battlefield.  Built for strength, courage and agility, this beast delivered the strait ahead power and acceleration that made it perfect for jousting.  Destiers were so expensive though and so specialized that they tended to be owned by wealthy Lords who could usually also afford other mounts for other purposes.





Destrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Palfrey 




from the wiki:
Palfrey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> A well-bred palfrey could equal a destrier in price.  It was popular with nobles and highly-ranked knights for riding, hunting and ceremonial use. Ambling was a desirable trait in a Palfrey, as the smooth gait allowed the rider to cover long distances quickly in relative comfort.



*Courser*






From the wiki:



> Coursers were the preferred horse for hard battle as they were light, fast and strong.[63] They were valuable, but not as costly as the destrier.[42] They were also used frequently for hunting.[68]  A courser is a swift and strong horse, frequently used during the Middle Ages as a warhorse. It was ridden by knights and men-at-arms.
> 
> Coursers are commonly believed to be named for their running gait,[1] (from Old French cours, 'to run'.[2]). However, the word possibly derived from the Italian corsiero, meaning 'battle horse'.[3]
> Coursers in warfare
> 
> The courser was more common than the destrier,[4] and preferred for hard battle as they were light, fast and strong.[1] They were valuable horses, but less expensive than the highly-prized destrier.[5] Another horse commonly ridden during war was the rouncey, which was an all-purpose horse.
> 
> Coursers were also used occasionally for hunting.[3]



_
Note all these references to hunting, a common passtime for members of the knightly class.  Any knight class in DnD should have access to most of the skills that a hunter would have.  Worth thinking about._


There were also more exotic regional breeds, just to cite a couple:

*Irish Hobbie*




From the wiki
Irish Hobby - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> The Hobby was a lightweight horse, about 13 to 14 hands, developed in Ireland from Spanish or Libyan (Barb) bloodstock. This type of quick and agile horse was popular for skirmishing, and was often ridden by light cavalry known as Hobelars. Hobbies were used successfully by both sides during the Wars of Scottish Independence, with Edward I of England trying to gain advantage by preventing Irish exports of the horses to Scotland. Robert Bruce employed the hobby for his guerilla warfare and mounted raids, covering 60 to 70 miles a day.[71



Irish Hobbies were ridden by special type of Irish Knight called Hobilars  who were also famously used in Scotland by Robert the Bruce.

The hobby is also of course the inspiration for the famous toy hobby horse.  It is sadly extinct now, I won't get into why.


*Jennet*





Jennet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The barb was one of the sources of at least one military breed in Spain, the Jennet.  Jennets were small horses, first bred in Spain from Barb and Arabian bloodstock. Their quiet and dependable nature, as well as size, made them popular as riding horses for ladies; however, they were also used as cavalry horses by the Spanish.



So ok enough for now.  I think it's interesting to think a bit about how a different type of horse could potentially contribute to a different fighting style, and different regional variations of knights from different parts of Europe.  I'll leave you guys with that for now since I have to go for a while but I'll revisit this soon and follow up about the weapons, the knights social status and ultimately take a stab at how to make a new knight class.

G.


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## Pat

Galloglaich said:


> The third or fourth level fighter does jibe historically because a knight (reitter, cavallier, caballero et al., usually listed as 'Lances' in medieval records) was typically considered the equivalent of 10 - 30 common infantry soldiers.  This is repeated in records of hundreds of battles and wars, for example when listing the contributions of a given town or lord to an army, 100-200 'lances' may be listed alongside 3,000 4,000 infantry.  The typical ratio was around that ballpark, though of course it varied a lot and there were various types of specialist infantry who were also elite soldiers (genoese crossbowmen, swiss halberdiers etc.) you can get an idea what I mean by looking at some of the Osprey books on knights from different periods or on various medieval battles, or by looking at more serious academic analysis of medieval warfare like Hans Delbruck.  I'll recommend a couple of references at the end of the post.



Even a 2nd or 3rd level character can achieve that against standard peasant levies or even professional infantry. Details:
[sblock]Assumptions: For simplicity, let's say the melee resolves into a series of fights where the knight charges a group. Knights attack first (reach), and if a soldier or miltia member falls, another takes their place next round (a killed soldier or milita member doesn't do any damage that round). Everyone's prepared, no surprise. Initiative is equal and so washes out. Wounds to the soldiers and milita are ignored. No magic weapons. The soldiers and milita have readied attacks. The warhorse does not attempt to make an attack. Ignoring crits. For brevity, didn't show all the interim math steps, just enough so it can be recreated (please feel free to double check).

Milita member: 2.5 hp (commoner 1), Attack +0 (BAB), average damage 3.5 (1d6 weapon), AC 13 (padded, heavy shield). A surviving militia member does 0.7 damage per round to either type of knight (20% chance to hit times average damage).

Professional soldier: 5.5 hp (warrior 1, nonelite, +1 Con from standard array), Attack +2 (BAB, +1 Str), average damage 5.5 (1d8 weapon), AC 13 (same as militia. A surviving soldier does 1.65 damage per round (30% chance to hit).

New knight: 11 hp (warrior 2, +1 Con from standard array), Attack +3 (BAB, +1 Str), average damage 11 (lance, charge), AC 17 (mail, heavy shield), warhorse, Ride-by Attack. A new knight has a 48% chance to take out a soldier on a single hit (55% chance to hit, only survives on a damage roll of 1), or a 55% for a militia member (can't even survive on a 1).

Experienced knight: 16.5 hp (warrior 3), Attack +6 (BAB, +1 Str, Weapon Focus, masterwork), average damage 11, AC 17, etc (still no Spirited Charge). An experienced knight has a 61% chance to take out a soldier on a single hit (70% chance to hit), or 70% for a militia member. Suffers the same damage as a new knight.

New knight vs. militia: 
3-on-1: New knight will fall in 6.41 rounds, killing 3.53 militia.
2-on-1: New knight will fall in 10.8 rounds, killing 5.96 militia.
1-on-1: New knight will fall in 34.9 rounds, killing 19.2 militia.

New knight vs. soldiers: 
3-on-1: New knight will fall in 2.65 rounds, killing 1.27 militia.
2-on-1: New knight will fall in 4.39 rounds, killing 2.11 militia.
1-on-1: New knight will fall in 12.9 rounds, killing 6.18 militia.

Experienced knight vs. militia: 
3-on-1: Experienced knight will fall in 10.3 rounds, killing 7.17 militia.
2-on-1: Experienced knight will fall in 18.1 rounds, killing 12.7 militia.
1-on-1: Experienced knight will fall in 78.6 rounds, killing 55.0 militia.

Experienced knight vs. soldiers: 
3-on-1: Experienced knight will fall in 4.19 rounds, killing 2.57 militia.
2-on-1: Experienced knight will fall in 7.21 rounds, killing 4.41 militia.
1-on-1: Experienced knight will fall in 25.8 rounds, killing 15.8 militia.[/sblock]
A group of 2nd or 3rd level knights attacking in a tight formation to minimize their exposure to multiple attacks will _mow_ through their opponents (opponents who use reach weapons that allow multiple ranks to attack will significantly shift the balance in the other direction, as will knights who get surrounded or attack on their own).

Sorry, no more sidetracks. 

And I'd love to see good print references. I've picked up a few on arms and armor based on recommendations at the Arador Library, but I'm not an expert and it's hard to sort the wheat from the chaff.


----------



## Galloglaich

Hey I don't have a lot of time but I just wanted to pop in here, and say thanks for crunching the numbers, that's some good stuff!  

I think maybe we need to also explore the idea of what the infantry was all about in this period as well in order to determine the context of our knight so we can figure out what class and level to start for our baseline.

In the meantime, here are a couple of links:

There are many Ren-faire type groups who do jousting, but here is a group in Norway which does actual historical European martial arts from horseback - taking it to another level.  Their fighting is based on lichtenauer tradition i gather, primarily Talhoffer who has a lot of horseback combat (including some really elegant disarms I've seen done in demonstrations)

Frilansene - Batallie












Now, per your request, some written sources.

For kind of an entry level I like the Osprey books.  These are kind of the clift notes version of medieval history, they are criticized sometimes by academics for having a few mistakes but I find their level of accuracy overall is very good, and the presentation is usually excellent.  They always have a detailed and (usually) historically correct overview of kit (i.e. weapons and armor etc.) always including examples from the archeological record, as well as (usually) good illustrations from guys like Angus McBride, and various timelines and records of battles etc. with all your stats.

Most importantly they are a very quick and easy entry into getting an basic idea about this kind of stuff.  They vary in quality of course, here are a few I have really liked so far (in no particular order):

*Knight of Outramer 1187-1344*
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Knight-Outremer-AD-1187-1344-Warrior/dp/1855325551/ref=pd_sim_b_4"]Amazon.com: Knight of Outremer AD 1187-1344 (Warrior): David Nicolle, Christa Hook: Books[/ame]

*The Swiss at war 1300-1500 *(this one was a real eye-opener)
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Swiss-War-1300-1500-Men-At-Arms-94/dp/0850453348/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232221970&sr=1-1"]Amazon.com: The Swiss at War 1300-1500 (Men-At-Arms Series, 94): Douglas Miller, Gerry Embleton: Books[/ame]

*German Medieval Armies 1000-1300 AD*
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/German-Medieval-Armies-1000-1300-Men-at-Arms/dp/1855326574/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b"]Amazon.com: German Medieval Armies 1000-1300 (Men-at-Arms): Christopher Gravett, Graham Turner: Books[/ame]

*Landsknecht Soldier*
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Landsknecht-Soldier-1486-1560-Warrior-Richards/dp/1841762431/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232221068&sr=1-1"]Amazon.com: Landsknecht Soldier 1486-1560 (Warrior): John Richards, Gerry Embleton: Books[/ame]

*Teutonic Knight 1190-1500*
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Teutonic-Knight-1190-1561-David-Nicolle/dp/1846030757/ref=pd_sim_b_1"]Amazon.com: Teutonic Knight: 1190-1561 (Warrior): David Nicolle, Graham Turner: Books[/ame]

*The Hussite Wars 1419-1436*
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Hussite-Wars-1419-36-Men-at-Arms/dp/1841766658/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232222018&sr=1-1"]Amazon.com: The Hussite Wars 1419-36 (Men-at-Arms): Stephen Turnbull, Angus Mcbride: Books[/ame]

*Medieval Russian Armies 1250-1500*
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Russian-Armies-1250-Men-At-Arms/dp/1841762342/ref=pd_sim_b_4"]Amazon.com: Medieval Russian Armies 1250 - 1500 (Men-At-Arms): David Nicolle, Angus Mcbride: Books[/ame]
*
French Medieval Armies 1000-1300 AD*
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/French-Medieval-Armies-1000-1300-Men-at-Arms/dp/1855321270/ref=pd_sim_b_1"]Amazon.com: French Medieval Armies 1000-1300 (Men-at-Arms): David Nicolle, Angus Mcbride: Books[/ame]

*Viking Hersir 793 - 1066 AD*
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Viking-Hersir-793-1066-AD-Warrior/dp/1855323184/ref=pd_sim_b_6"]Amazon.com: Viking Hersir 793-1066 AD (Warrior): Mark Harrison, Gerry Embleton: Books[/ame]

*The Normans *
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Normans-Elite-David-Nicolle/dp/0850457297/ref=pd_sim_b_njs_2"]Amazon.com: The Normans (Elite): David Nicolle, Angus Mcbride: Books[/ame]


In about the mid-range, you have popular historians.  One of my favorites is *Ewart Oakeshott*, the remarkable amateur sword collector who totally revolutionized our understanding of what Medieval swords were actually like, gave us the Oakeshott Typology and indirectly led to the rediscovery of European Martial Arts.  He is most famous for his books on swords (which I'll be blogging about later in this thread) but he also did some nice little books on knights, two in particular relavent to this topic:

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Knight-His-Horse-Ewart-Oakeshott/dp/0802312977/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232220692&sr=8-1"]A Knight and his Horse[/ame] is a particularly good reference for this subject as is [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Knight-His-Armor-Ewart-Oakeshott/dp/0802313299/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_c"] A knight and his armor [/ame]


For more serious academic stuff...

The ultimate reference on the martial arts of this period is still Sydney Anglo's superb [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Martial-Arts-Renaissance-Europe/dp/0300083521/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232221462&sr=1-1"]The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe [/ame] which is an excellent overview of all the various Fechtbuchs and the close up view they give us on individual combat, judicial combat and duels in this period.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Martial-Arts-Renaissance-Europe/dp/0300083521/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232221462&sr=1-1"]Amazon.com: The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe: Sydney Anglo: Books[/ame]


For warfare on a more strategic / operational level, I like Hans Delbruck as a general source on Medieval combat.  Delbruck wrote about 100 years ago and some people now dispute some of his figures on the number of combatants in various famous battles, but most of his analysis still stands.  This is a pretty heavy read mind you, 700 something pages, but vastly better written than most academic works I've read, it's very clear minded well structured analysis really helped me put the overall picture of what medieval combat was like into perspective.  I've never read his other two books (Classical and early modern era respectively) but I'd like 
to.

Anyway this is the one I read:

Medieval Warfare: History of the Art of War, Volume III 

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Warfare-History-Art-War/dp/0803265859/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232220799&sr=1-2"]Amazon.com: Medieval Warfare: History of the Art of War, Volume III (History of the Art of War, Vol 3): Hans Delbruck, Walter J. Renfroe Jr.: Books[/ame]

Anyway, that's a start.  I'll fill in a few more later as I think of them.

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

Ok I'm done with my chores so a bit more delving on the situation of our knight:



Pat said:


> [sblock]
> Milita member: 2.5 hp (commoner 1), Attack +0 (BAB), average damage 3.5 (1d6 weapon), AC 13 (padded, heavy shield). A surviving militia member does 0.7 damage per round to either type of knight (20% chance to hit times average damage).
> 
> Professional soldier: 5.5 hp (warrior 1, nonelite, +1 Con from standard array), Attack +2 (BAB, +1 Str), average damage 5.5 (1d8 weapon), AC 13 (same as militia. A surviving soldier does 1.65 damage per round (30% chance to hit).
> 
> New knight: 11 hp (warrior 2, +1 Con from standard array), Attack +3 (BAB, +1 Str), average damage 11 (lance, charge), AC 17 (mail, heavy shield), warhorse, Ride-by Attack. A new knight has a 48% chance to take out a soldier on a single hit (55% chance to hit, only survives on a damage roll of 1), or a 55% for a militia member (can't even survive on a 1).
> 
> Experienced knight: 16.5 hp (warrior 3), Attack +6 (BAB, +1 Str, Weapon Focus, masterwork), average damage 11, AC 17, etc (still no Spirited Charge). An experienced knight has a 61% chance to take out a soldier on a single hit (70% chance to hit), or 70% for a militia member. Suffers the same damage as a new knight.
> 
> New knight vs. militia:
> 3-on-1: New knight will fall in 6.41 rounds, killing 3.53 militia.
> 2-on-1: New knight will fall in 10.8 rounds, killing 5.96 militia.
> 1-on-1: New knight will fall in 34.9 rounds, killing 19.2 militia.
> 
> New knight vs. soldiers:
> 3-on-1: New knight will fall in 2.65 rounds, killing 1.27 militia.
> 2-on-1: New knight will fall in 4.39 rounds, killing 2.11 militia.
> 1-on-1: New knight will fall in 12.9 rounds, killing 6.18 militia.
> 
> Experienced knight vs. militia:
> 3-on-1: Experienced knight will fall in 10.3 rounds, killing 7.17 militia.
> 2-on-1: Experienced knight will fall in 18.1 rounds, killing 12.7 militia.
> 1-on-1: Experienced knight will fall in 78.6 rounds, killing 55.0 militia.
> 
> Experienced knight vs. soldiers:
> 3-on-1: Experienced knight will fall in 4.19 rounds, killing 2.57 militia.
> 2-on-1: Experienced knight will fall in 7.21 rounds, killing 4.41 militia.
> 1-on-1: Experienced knight will fall in 25.8 rounds, killing 15.8 militia.[/sblock]
> A group of 2nd or 3rd level knights attacking in a tight formation to minimize their exposure to multiple attacks will _mow_ through their opponents (opponents who use reach weapons that allow multiple ranks to attack will significantly shift the balance in the other direction, as will knights who get surrounded or attack on their own).
> 
> Sorry, no more sidetracks. [/sblock]




Ok so, some quibbles:

1) I don't think a 1st level commoner is really accurate for a militia.  

2) I definitely don't think a knight would be a Warrior class in most cultures, an Aristocrat is a good fit as I said before but a couple of levels of Fighter is likely if they are meant to actually be knights in more than name (title) only.

*First on point One *(please forgive another long winded digression here..):
While I know this complicates matters a bit more than most people will bother with in their campaigns, for purposes here of the context of the Knight, depending on the region and the specific time you are depicting in your campaign, and whether it is an urban or rural militia, realistically in 3.5 rules a Militia soldier would be a multiclassed character.  

[sblock]
I know it's a popular image of the middle ages that you basically had knights on the one hand and peasant rabble on the other, but things are always more complex when you look into history. 





In fact with the caveat that it's always dangerous to generalize about history in general and about Medieval Europe in particular, I think this Monty Python image is largely a myth. There were plenty of peasant rabble of course but those type of lowly serfs didn't usually fight.  Militia were usually made up of slightly wealthier peasants and burghers.

Militia get a bad rap in DnD I think. Historically they actually tended to be pretty well trained and were usually pretty tough. Untrained common peasants really didn't fight that much in the period we are talking about (11th Century - 14th, the heydey of the knight) Anything after that and you had militia who were so good they could demand top dollar as mercenaries, such as the Genoese crossbowmen, Welsh longbowmen, Irish Galloglaich, German Landsknechts, Catalan Almogavars or Swiss halberdiers etc. etc.. This doesn't mean they weren't commoners, which they were, and many were still in fact peasants (or burghers) in their day job, but to be in the militia meant that regular training was done, and militias were routinely mustered and had to be tested in all kinds of skirmishes, sieges and small engagements. This amounted to skill and experience when push came to shove.

Anything before our Knightly period was a mix, there were some untrained peasants sometimes pushed into battles but they did abysmally and were soon replaced by more professional soldiers. This is why Alfred the Great rebuilt the Anglo Saxon fyrd system in Britain because he found ceorls were useless in combat. It took years of drilling and retraining before they eventually did recover their ability to provide some resistance against the Vikings. 

Before 1100 you had either warriors still trained in traditional tribal warfare, like the Scottish Highlanders or the Anglo Saxon Fyrd or the Viking Baendir, or the the Rus Voi (rural militia), as well as en even tougher emerging urban militia such as in the Kieven Rus towns, the Italian City states and the Hanse cities etc. All of whom were considered pretty formidable - the Rus urban miltia were able for example to fend off the Mongols at Novgorod (as were Czech militias in Bohemia), no mean feat considering that the Mongols were able to largely annihilate the cream of European knighthood at the battles of  Leignitz in Poland and Sajo river in Hungry. (In fact after the knightly army was defeated in Hungary it was the militias in the little towns who successfully fought off the Mongols in the extended guerrila campaign which followed).

Their kit would be a little better, they should have decent armor and from circa 1150 AD would almost always have high-energy missiles like heavy crossbows or (more rarely) longbows. So the knights would not actually be immune to attack even though they are using reach weapons.

A common point of confusion here is due to a major change in the economy of iron in Europe around the time of the rise of the Knight. In fact there have been some good books written on the idea of the link between these two events like [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Knight-Blast-Furnace-History-Metallurgy/dp/9004124985/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1232228530&sr=8-1"]this one[/ame] which I would love to read but can't afford the $375 for!!)  To make a long story short the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cistercians"]Cistercian Monks [/ame] went all over Europe in the first half of the 12th Century spreading the technology of the overwash water wheel and the windmill, thinking that this would bring about a Golden Age of prosperity. One of the things it did bring about was automated bellows and [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trip_hammer#Medieval_Europe"]trip hammers[/ame] which allowed for the production of relatively cheap homogeneous steel of excellent quality in very large quantity.

So wheras during say the early Middle Ages / Dark Ages / Migration period back in the early Viking times or the rise of the Franks, a well made sword or armor were worth more than whole villages, by the time Knights roll around, probably not coincidentally, armor had become much cheaper and some kind of protection was fairly common for professional soldiers, mercenaries, and yes even militias.

Pikes (long spears) appeared later in the 14th century, used by well trained specialists, as were weapons like Halberds, Bills and true-two handed swords which were all usually wielded by elite experts called "Dopplesoldners" who were paid double the normal rate for soldiers. 

Very generally speaking, I may be making an incorrect assumption but to me, if a guy has been training in the militia for 10 or 15 years, has been in at least a half dozen raids, skirmishers or sieges, maybe one or two actual wars, and has probably killed more than a few people in combat, he's probably not still a 1st level commoner. Similarly an actual professional soldier from a veteran company (like the Catalan Grand Company mentioned above) in this period was a hard bitten killer who would have been in scores if not hundreds of combats and would in fact be a lot more like a typical PC, so something like a 1st - 3rd level fighter or 2nd - 4th level warrior on average. 

 To put it into perspective, a Viking was a commoner and essentially a peasant: a farmer or a fisherman who went on trading voyages and occasional raids in the summer. Many were part of the local militia or _leiðangr_, some went on to join armies or professional raiding bands (Vikinglegs) such as the famous Jomsvikings). We know Vikings were pretty tough, probably not 1st level commoner material...

[/sblock]
Typical rural militia might be a 1st-3rd level commoner (depending on age) _and _a 1st level warrior, wheras in a city or certain specific rural areas (like Switzerland) you might have a multiclassed character who is a 1st or 2nd level commoner or expert, _and _a 1st or 2nd level fighter.  The latter in particular would be fairly well equipped, again depending on the region and the time period, probably with something like mail hauberk, a helmet and a shield, a spear or a crossbow, as well as a sidearm like a sword, a hammer, an axe or a mace (more on these in a later post).

I guess all this depends a lot on the philosophy of your game and where and when you set it of course.

*On Point Two*
Because they effectively were specialized killers trained in many cases from early youth, I think a combatant knight would be a Fighter, though I guess you could make an argument for their being a Warrior since they didn't typically have a lot of discipline in this period.

_Knight_ was both a title and a military rank, the former going back to Roman times with the Equestrian ("Equites") rank of junior nobility. As in Roman times, someone might frequently have the social rank of 'Knight' (or chevalier, reitter, caballero etc.) but not actually be a fighter at all, or perhaps be only nominally a fighter who would go to battle only when they had to. These would be covered by the Aristocrat Class. The actual serious fighting knight though was a professional lifelong occupation, very much done with constant formal training and tests of mettle on both the battlefield and the tournaments (and it's worth noting, tournaments in this period 1100-1300 AD were really rough affairs, more like small controlled wars, in which people usually died and men's fortunes were won or lost as they were captured and held ransom in the course of bloody pitched battles) 

Anyway I don't mind the seques at all I think they are interesting and fun to talk about, so by all means lets continue this discussion about what class and level a knight should be, the militias etc. we can just keep the lengthy digressions in the sblocks and meanwhile move on into the ideas of how to customize knights a bit further from the basic template.

For a little more insight into the origins of European Medieval militias check out these articles on some early medieval tribal and urban assemblies: the Slavic Veche, the Norse Leidang and the Ting, and the Anglo-Saxon Fyrd

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veche

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fyrd

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thing_(assembly)

http://www.regia.org/warfare/fyrd2.htm

G.

EDIT: Note in the Wiki on the Norse Lidang it mentions that records from the 12th - 13th century show that militia were under obligation to report with the following gear: helmet, mail hauberk, shield, spear and sword


----------



## Galloglaich

Ok so lets continue to try to create some rules for our specialized warhorses.

3.5 OGL SRD I am looking at right now lists three types: a heavy and a light warhorse, and a war pony.

SRD - Animals

The Heavy Warhorse costs 400 gp, 4 HD, Str 18, Dex 13, Con 17, Base Speed 50', attacks with the Hoof for +6 TH and 1d6+4 Damage

The Light Warhorse costs 150 gp, 3 HD, Str 16, Dex 13, Con 17, Base Speed 60', attacks with the Hoof for +4 TH and 1d4+3 Damage

The War Pony costs 100 gp but I can't find any stats for it.

I figure this Warhorse is a decent start, but it doesn't sound like any of the ones I listed above. It's certainly not as expensive as full plate armor at 1,500 GP, wheras a Destrier historically could have been more. I think we need a better warhorse worth a lot more money.

So lets make the standard Heavy Warhorse and Light Warhorse our basic template, and we can build from there for our more exotic 'Deluxe' types: the Destrier, the Palfrey, the Courser, the Jennet and the Hobbie.

The first change from the standard Warhorse template is going to be about acceleration. If you have ever seen a joust at a Ren Faire or even on TV, you will be struck by how fast a trained jousting horse can accelerate to charging speed - they are _fast _out the gate, much like a trained racehorse. So all of our 'Deluxe' warhorses can move to charge speed as a free action, and confers a +1 initiative bonus to their rider.

Another thing a really quality WarHorse seems to have been able to do historically, is deliver it's strength into your attacks, particularly with a spear or a lance. 

To model this, I'm going to say all our 'deluxe' Warhorses confer their own strength bonus into the To Hit and Damage rolls for any attack made by a rider during a charge. Now that is a warhorse! It also makes it more valuable to have a stronger horse.






Furthermore, Warhorses were agile and could be made by their riders to perform all kinds of tricky moves, for example when Robert the Bruce so famously split the head of Henry De Bohun, he avoided Henry's lance thrust by spurring his horse into a sideward leap.

Our 'Deluxe' class warhorse can allow a rider who has the Mounted Combat feat to use a Ride skill check to negate a hit to his or her_self _and not just on the mount. Why not? If it works for the mount why not for the rider? And I'm so crazy I'll even let you throw the Horses Dex bonus into your roll if it's higher than your own. Crazier yet, let the rider optionally do the same for a reflex saving throw once per round too.

I don't think this is any more radical than a flaming sword or a lightning bolt spell personally, and it confers real power to a knight without having to rely on magic items or buffing spells. You can decide if you think these are viable or balanced or not for yourself. I'll use them in my campaign and let you know how they work out 

A warhorse was a very valuable commodity in real life, these two little improvements make our 'deluxe' warhorses equally valuable in standard 3.5 DnD. 



So *Destrier* a* Palfrey *or a *Courser* costs 100 Gp per point of Strength plus 100 Gp per point of Dexterity

A *Hobbie *or a *Jennet *costs 50 Gp per point of Strength plus 100 Gp per point of Dexterity.  

Finally, we know lances did break in combat frequently, especially on good hits, so lets make lances break any time the rider rolls a natural 20, whether it ends up being a critical hit or not. 

Maybe some of these options could spice up a knight in your campaign, whether he was a 4th level Aristocrat, a 3rd level Warrior or a 2nd Level fighter 

G.


----------



## Lord Zack

There's something important to consider here. The guys you're talking about in this thread would be what sixth level at most? That's not necessarily a bad thing. But at high levels characters aught to start looking more like Beowulf, Cu Chulainn, and Heracles.


----------



## Galloglaich

Yes but keep in mind, that is only one way of playing - maybe the way the rules tend to push you in 3.5 / 3.75, but not everybody wants or needs to play godlike characters.  Quite a few people play DnD low-magic / low fantasy and enjoy playing something similar to one of the real-life heros from the OP in this thread, like a Xenophon, a Musashi or a Roger de Flor  whose actual historical adventures were more gripping and dramatic than 90% of RPG games anyone has ever played.  People who play for example using E6 rules would probably find an enhanced 6th level knight fun to play and more than powerful enough for their game.

But that said, this is just a template for a basic entry level knight, most of the knights and other warriors listed in the OP were probably more than 6th level, even if they didn't have 200 hit points.  They clearly had skills and abilities that were beyond those of ordinary men and women.

I'm planning to get into a few more things which might enhance knights for higher levels as well, especially in areas they are very vulnerable like dealing with Magic.  Just getting started here   And as with the three famous individuals you mentioened as the levels go higher more mythological elements can be introduced...

G.


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## Galloglaich

On the subject of knights, here is a cool website on Greathelms, if you ever wanted to know anything about them.

75years - Great Helms


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## EroGaki

Whoa!, We can't have this thread dropping off the first page, now. It's too good! So here's a bump! Keep up the good work!


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## Galloglaich

Galloglaich said:


> On the subject of knights, here is a cool website on Greathelms, if you ever wanted to know anything about them.
> 
> 75years - Great Helms












Bit more on Great Helms.

A lot of people probably wonder about these, without realizing how they were actually used. Their construction seems to emphasize protection at the expense of everything else, including the ability to see, move your head or breathe. Though they aren't nearly as restrictive as they seem of course, there is something to that. But there is a reason for it.

Great Helms or Heaumes were worn for the cavalry charge essentially,_ and taken off_ for hand to hand or close fighting. Even more surprising to most people, a second helmet was worn underneath the Heaume, usually a bascinet or a simpler skull cap like a Cervelliere, such as the ones these guys are wearing:






That is where the term helmet comes from, it means little helm. Common soldiers would often have no other protection, but knights also had the Great helm. It was not unusual in fact for a knight to hang his helm on a strap off of his back, like this guy:






Now there is a good reason for wearing two helmets. Number one is the added face protection of the Helm, needed when facing lance strikes, but number two is that a little extra metal between you and an opponent on another horse was a really good idea.

A sword swung by a man travels through the air around 20-30 mph. Swinging from a charging horse can effectively double that speed, and therefore the energy, of that cut. Even more dangerous against a helmet with a mace or an axe.

The impacts are so strong when striking from horseback that weapons intended for cavalry were designed specifically for retention (i.e. so they don't fly out of your hand). For example light maces used by cavalry had leather wrist-thongs. And did you ever wonder why sabers have a canted grip?






it's to help keep it in your hand when you hit something with it at 30 -60 miles per hour.  When two cavalry soldiers pass each other at full gallop the spead will be 60 mph or more.  Imagine riding by in a car at sixty miles an hour and striking something with a sword.  This gives you some idea of the danger and intensity of cavalry warfare, and why it took so long to train cavalry troops effectively (in man cases requiring that the grew up riding).

Same for the hook like grips on "scimetars" like this Turkish killic





or this Russian Shashka






It's also the reason for their curved blades. Basically every curved blade in the world (except inwardly curved blades) was initially designed as a cavalry weapon specialized for draw-cuts. Including Tachis and Katanas. 


The significance of all this is that hitting from horseback confers _a lot_ of extra power. This should be factored into DnD in my opinion. Not just for lances, but any weapon used from a charging horse should probably do double damage, perhaps it could be linked to a feat like *Ride By Attack*.

The great helm went away when two things happened, first, movable visors began to be built into bascinets, leading for example ot the famous "pig-faced" bascinet, 






as well as various other types of infantry helmets such as 




armets, 





sallets, 





burgonettes etc. 



This allowed for full face protection during a charge or while under missile fire, while retaining the vision of an open helmet for fighting hand to hand or for various other circumstances. 

The second reason is that armor, which had up to this point been made of iron, began to be made of tempered steel. Tempered steel was in the real life what mythril is in DnD. Much stronger than regular iron for half the mass. 

G.


----------



## El Mahdi

I'd never heard of the two helmets thing before.  I learn something new from this thread with each new post.  For me, this is by far the best thread here.  Keep it up man.  You'll have us all educated eventually!


----------



## Galloglaich

*How and when did medieval soldiers train*

Hey haven't been around in a while, I thought I was overdue for a post on this thread.

On another forum a guy asked this question:



> I've read a lot about sword training and training manuals like I.33, but how often were these actually used historically? I find it hard to believe that every soldier with a sword in, for example, the Battle of Hastings, or Agincourt was trained with a sword (at least under a "master"). How did average soldiers train themselves during the Middle Ages for sword fighting (or any weapons use for that matter)? Did they have instructors train them? Did they use texts to train themselves?



This is something which comes up a lot, and I think a lot of people really wonder about. So I'm taking a crack at it.






The manuals like I.33, those in the Lichtenauer tradition and etc. did not spring up out of thin air. They were reflections, maybe refinements, of martial arts traditions that went back aeons in Europe. Exactly like the traditions of what we know today as Kung Fu, Karate, Silat etc. in various parts of Asia. I know this is hard for a lot of people to understand today, but that is what the manuals reflect. 
These martial arts traditions and explicit training for them, are not exactly a huge mystery. To this day there are numerous, myriad European martial arts kind of hiding in plain sight. The most obvious example is our modern form of 'Graeco -Roman' wrestling was an ancient tradition going back to the pre-history of the Greeks, who practiced a kind of Mixed Martial Art they called Pankration . 






In Medieval Japan, the equivalent of this was Jujitsu. In Medieval Europe, the equivalent was called Ringen or Kampfringen, and when used with a weapon, Rignen Am Schwert. There may be a direct link to the earlier Mediterranean systems, some of the most famous masters of Ringen were Jews, such as Ott Jud and Jud Lew.

Many of the underlying skills for fighting were also made into various sports. The sports which made up the original olympic games, the javelin, wrestling (pankration), boxing, the discus, running, jumping etc. were directly related to martial arts, as were the famous and usually somewhat caricatured Medieval Tournament of the knightly aristocracy. Fewer people are aware of the many similar traditions among the common classes. The Bridge Fighting in Italian Cities such as Venice, wherein people from the various neighborhoods would stage pitched battles with sticks etc. are just one example. 






Traditions like this exist in hundreds of towns around Europe, in some cases evolving into quaint, comedic events popular with tourists like the tomatana in Bunol, Spain.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdgVULWrPfE&feature=related"]YouTube - Kelly packard en La Tomatina[/ame]

These kinds of traditions kept combat skills honed in the cities where the best foot soldiers often emerged in Medieval Europe. In the rural areas martial arts were kept alive with games like Hurling in Ireland and Norse Scandinavia, which goes back at least to the 4th century AD and was practiced all across Pagan Europe under various other names. Lacrosse played a similar role in many Native American cultures such as the Lakota and the Iroquois. In both cases 'games' were often like pitched battles lasting several days, in which people were not infrequently killed, and used to decide issues such as the boundaries between regions etc.





Hurling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
History of Hurling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Shinty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_lacrosse

Hurling is mentioned in the Táin Bó Cúailnge, played by hero Cúchulainn, as well as the Fenian Cycle by Finn MaCool.  Similar games are described in numerous Viking Sagas, a high importance was placed on them, as well as on board games  Training is specifically described in some detail, in the various stories heroes like CuCullain and Finn McCool spent time being trained, interestingly enough under the tutelage of women. The specific 'Feats' they learned to accomplish, such as running through a forest barefoot without snagging on a thorn, or standing in a pit and fending off javelins thrown by 5 men, were described in the Ulster Cycle and the Fenian Cycle.

In the Battle of Hastings. The effective, if not victorious Saxon armies which took that field were created by systematic training. When the Barbarian Norse stormed into England in the 9th Century they found easy pickings among the Feudal Saxon peasants most of whom had been systematically disarmed and no longer retained their military skills.  Alfred the Great had to revive the old militia and recreate the system of Burhs (forts) where the Saxons were encouraged to drill. This paid off great dividends which ultimately kept the Vikings at bay in his kingdom of Wessex, leading to the treaty with the Norse and the Danelaw partition of England.

Other militias were more successful - so much so that they became the most valuable mercenaries in Europe.  The famous Swiss mercenaries of course were actually militias of the various towns and cantons, to hire them you made a contract with the local town council. The order of battle for famous clashes like Morgarten, Sempach or Grandson reads like a cross section of the Medieval civil economy: bakers guild, butchers guild, weavers guild etc.  The Swiss like many tribal militias, drilled regularly and also developed new weapons such as the Halberd and improved variations of the crossbow, and trained with their characteristic short sword (the baselard), the bastard sword, and later, the true two hander or zweihander. Each village or town district would report with their weapons, bearing arms gave you a vote, this is a tradition which continued in the Swiss district of Appenzel until the 1990s, and goes back to pre-historic times. It was known to the Medieval Scandinavians and Migration era Germans as a waepentake a foundational component the Eidgenossenschaft or sworn brotherhood, which was the basis of many Germanic, Celtic and Scandinavian militias. 
Hundred (country subdivision) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Eidgenossenschaft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Finally, professional soldiers groups, form the VikingLaegs, (sworn brotherhoods) to the Renaissance Landsknechts all trained systematically, and included in their ranks fencing masters. In the increasingly literate Renaissance, we see documentation of fencing brotherhoods or fraternities which evolved from these professional soldiers.  These were primarily civilians of the middle classes who obsessively trained in period fencing techniques. The most famous of these were the MarxBruder (Brotherhood of St. Mark) of Germany and the Federfechter ("Feather fighters" or "Free Fencers") of Prague. 






Brotherhood of St. Mark - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Federfechter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These Fraternities were directly linked to the Masters and their Fechtbuchen, and included several of the Masters we know today as well as famous individuals such as Albrecht Durer, (who few people realize, was the author of a Fechtbuch himself)

In this period they trained in gymnasiums much like the Greeks in the Classical Era, and special buildings they called Fechtschules.









Some of these very same Fechtschules are still around and are now being used by modern HEMA practitioners

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfuMYqfmACM[/ame]

We don't know for sure how far back these arts go in Northern Europe, other than the few tantalizing details mentioned in insular literature such as the Icelandic Sagas and Irish Ulster Cycle etc. Before the Renaissance there were not many truly literate societies in Europe, so what we do know about training methods comes to us primarily in the form of epic poems and folk tales etc. 

But evidence of many of these folk Martial traditions live on to this day.  The medieval traditions of Swiss, Icelandic and Breton wrestling for example, are still alive to this day and practiced by thousands of people as is Jogo Do Pao in Portugal, Trois-de-Bata stick-fighting in Ireland, etc. etc. There are equivalents in every part of Europe.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY5LOGtefAc&NR=1"]YouTube - Jogo do Pau inferioridade numÃ©rica[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSDSsereOdg&feature=related"]YouTube - Portuguese Stickfighting JOGO DO PAU[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p4Jp1he1uM&feature=related"]YouTube - Irish Stick Fighting (Shillelagh) Various Clips 2 Doyle[/ame]





Jogo do Pau - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well trained Militias were common throughout Europe, another example was in the Kievan Rus which found it's greatest (defensive) strength in it's militia the Veche, which as with the Vikings and the Swiss. It was similar in many regions of Spain during the Reconquista in Spain (see almogovars, upthread).  The Italian renaissance city-states were much the same way, the famous crossbowmen of the Genoese militia were hired from the town itself to fight for foreign armies and only later become mercenaries. 

The Flemish army that defeated the French nobility at Golden Spurs were militia, largely composed of militias composed of artisans guilds.

De Liebaart - The Town Militias

Again, this has a strong parallel even in ancient times, the Greek Hoplite or Peltast, the Athenian sailor or marine of the Persian wars were not for the most part professionals (except in the case of Sparta) but essentially town militia.  All these folks had their feet in two worlds, the military and the civilian, and for them, training for war was part of the reality of life in a dangerous world.

G.


----------



## EroGaki

Yay, this thread lives again!!


----------



## Hairfoot

Great thread, Galloglaich.


I haven't read the whole thing, so I might be late with this one, but I'm going to throw in Henri de Monfried (1879-1974).

Smuggler, pirate, spy and conman.


----------



## Galloglaich

*HEMA on the History Channel*

This is from the latest episode of the new series 'Warriors' 

Warriors Video Gallery

The first segment features Dave Rawlings of Boars Tooth fight School in the UK.  

Fight Medieval: The Boarstooth Fight School

Notice the difference in how this guy fights from the re-enactors in the later segments.  Dave (the guy with the fencing mask and the white nylon longsword) is using actual historical techniques based on 500 year old fencing manuals from the German Lichtenauer tradition.

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

*And now for something completely different*

Ready for a little detour into Cryptozoology?

*I may never swim in the Ocean again.*

Jaws I can handle. I'm not really afraid of sharks. Barracudas, moray eels, even jellyfish and such horrid oddities as sea snakes, mantis shrimp, sea nettles and portuguese man of war I can live with, but when I saw this
Animal Oddities - ABC News _]_ it was too much for me to handle. What the heck is this thing? Is this for real? Where do these horrific creatures live? 








It's a four foot long worm that was 'found' eating the fish in a public aquarium, has jaws that can break coral and can permanently "numb" humans with it's stingers. 






So I got really curious about this thing, it immediately reminded me of some old medieval tales of Wyrms from various Sagas and chronicles, like the Sockburn Wyrm or one of those other strange beasties, but more on that in a minute.

The first thing I ran across when searching for more information on these polycheates worms were some really evocative cryptozoological articles.

Our friend "Barry" from the aquarium could have some bigger cousins out there, namely the "Con Rit" aka Giant Sea Centipede, at least one Crypto writer posits it is related to this critter, which according to this article gets about 10' in some known variants

What Is The "Great Sea Centipede"?

Some other crypto articles

Null Hypothesis | Top Ten Animal Mysteries: The Giant Sea Centipede

Con Rit – The Great Sea Centipede

At the very least, this could make for a cool monster, paralysis stingers, very strong, up to 150' long? Whats not to like?

Here is a video of a much smaller and slimmer example of this species, maybe 3', noodling around in somebodies fish tank

YouTube - Sea Bristleworm dragon worm 

But gamers and fans of DnD might be particularly interested in some other much older stories. There are many interesting old Medieval stories of "wyrms" in Europe which made it into the public records, including this story I remembered of a "wyrm" which was found as a small animal, thrown in a well, where it proceeded to grow to monstrous size and eventually became a public nuisance.

Lambton Worm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The description of the “beast” reminds me a lot of our friend Barry



> The story states that the young John Lambton was a rebellious character who missed church one Sunday to go fishing in the River Wear. In many versions of the story, while walking to the river, or setting up his equipment, John receives warnings from an old man that no good can come from missing church.
> John Lambton does not catch anything until the time the church service finishes, at which point he fishes out a small eel- or lamprey-like creature with nine holes on each side of its salamander-like head. Depending on the version of the story the worm is no bigger than a thumb, or about 3 feet long. In some renditions it has legs, while in others it is said to more closely resemble a snake.
> At this point the old man returns, although in some versions it is a different character. John declares that he has caught the devil and decides to dispose of his catch by discarding it down a nearby well. The old man then issues further warnings about the nature of the beast.
> John then forgets about the creature and eventually grows up. As a penance for his rebellious early years he joins the crusades.




Probably a very tenuous link, but interesting for gamers nonetheless, maybe fodder for some game ideas? It's got my creative juices flowing like Barry's mouth while he's sizing up a yellow tang  

Next post: more cool Wyrm legends including the historical origins of Lewis Carols Jaberwock and the Vorpal blade which slew it snicker snack…

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

Brief segue before I do the next Wyrm post, (maybe later tonight) someone linked this article on a forum I'm on, it's fascinating and really good fodder for any campaign set in an urban environment; an in-depth article on knife fighting in Holland 1650-1750 based on court records

Men and violence: gender, honor, and ... - Google Book Search


----------



## EroGaki

Ack! And people say that there are no such thing as sea monsters...


----------



## Galloglaich

_



_

_"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!_
_The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!_
_Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun_
_The frumious Bandersnatch!"_


_He took his vorpal sword in hand:_
_Long time the manxome foe he sought --_
_So rested he by the Tumtum tree,_
_And stood awhile in thought._

_And, as in uffish thought he stood,_
_The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,_
_Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,_
_And burbled as it came!_

_One, two! One, two! And through and through_
_The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!_
_He left it dead, and with its head_
_He went galumphing back._
_"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?_
_Come to my arms, my beamish boy!_
_O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'_
_He chortled in his joy._

_`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves_
_Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;_
_All mimsy were the borogoves,_
_And the mome raths outgrabe."_

*-Lewis Caroll *
_Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There_, 1872


Before the spiked chain, there was a far more elegant and less random weapon available to Twinks the world wide. *The Vorpal Blade.*

Many people know the origins of the most famous and beloved uber-weapons of AD&D, which still exists in later versions, albiet in somewhat less formidable format. It was lifted from this 1872 poem by Lewis Caroll.

Some might say, Galloglaich, surely this classic DnD weapon is the kind of fun nonesense we love in fantasy RPGs which has no Historical roots at all.

Needless to say, I would go to my library and crack a few books before answering that question, but I wouldn't be surprised to end up finding something surprising and interesting.







Turns out, *this* rather odd looking Falchion may be the real historical inspiration of the Vorpal blade. Not a pretty sword, as swords go, but a formidable head-lopper by the look of it. It's one of the oldest relatively pristine European swords in the world, and it has quite a history. It's known as the Conyers Falchion, and according to English legal records, it was used to slay a dragon.






Lewis Caroll happened to grow up in Durham, England, a place swarming with legends. One of the most famous of these was that of the Sockburn Wyrm. Prose and poems far older than Lewis Caroll described the legend, the beast, and it's ultimate demise at the hands of Sir John Conyers.

_"Sr Jo Conyers of Storkburn Knt who slew ye monstrous venoms and poysons wiverms Ask or worme which overthrew and Devourd many people in fight, for the scent of poyson was soo strong, that no person was able to abide it, yet he by the providence of god overthrew it and lyes buried at Storkburn before the Conquest, but before he did enterprise it (having but one sonne) he went to the Church in compleat armour and offered up his sonne to the holy ghost, which monument is yet to see, and the place where the serpent lay is called Graystone." _
*(From British Museum MS Harleian No. 2118, fo. 39, circa 1625-49)*​ 




Sockburn Hall, a crumbling 19th Century ediface built upon an earlier 13th Century Church. Can anyone say, Adventure HooK? 

After he slayed the beast in 1063 AD, Sir John gave his trusty falchion to the local Prince Bishop as proof of his fealty, and was awarded lands which have remained in his family to this day. From that day on each new Prince-Bishop of Durham was presented with the sword that killed the worm upon entering their new office, with the following speach:

_"My Lord Bishop. I hereby present you with the falchion wherewith the champion Conyers slew the worm, dragon or fiery flying serpent which destroyed man, woman and child; in memory of which the king then reigning gave him the manor of Sockburn, to hold by this tenure, that upon the first entrance of every bishop into the county the falchion should be presented."_ 

Lewis Caroll knew this legend, had probably seen the Falchion, and was living right next to where it was stored when he originally wrote that poem in his youth.

To read more about the Conyers Falchion:

The Conyers Falchion

Next time, a famous Viking tangles with a notorious pair of Wyrms, earning his curious nickname.

G.


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## Jack7

Another interesting and quality piece a'postin.


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## Galloglaich

Wiki on the Sockburn Worm:

Sockburn Worm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and three other English Dragons:

The Laidly Worm of Spindleston Heugh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Worm of Linton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lambton Worm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(This last one, previously mentioned in the thread, was also the inspiration for Bram Stokers 'Lair of the White Worm' and the somewhat campy but fun 1988 film of the same name, featuring a far more attractive Wyrm than that horrid bristleworm.






[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AQLOJ-0uZ8"]YouTube - The Lair of the White Worm (trailer)[/ame]

G.


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## Pbartender

Galloglaich said:


> *A Few Historical Alchemists and Wizards*
> 
> (I just got started on these, this is only a tiny random sampling mostly some Arab and Persian alchemist I'd been researching, there are several dozen fascinating characters from the European renaissance alone)




You forgot John Dee...

*John Dee* 13 July 1527 – 1608 or 1609 AD (81 or 81) was a noted mathematician, astronomer, astrologer, occultist, and consultant to Queen Elizabeth I. He also devoted much of his life to the study of alchemy, divination, and Hermetic philosophy.

John Dee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## MichaelSomething

The World Digital Library may be a useful resource.  It's full of all sorts of historic stuff, ancient texts, and other things like that.


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## Galloglaich

Reclaiming the Blade has been released on DvD, I highly recommend it to anyone who has an interest in swords, knights, medieval history or martial arts

IGN Video: Reclaiming the Blade DVD Trailer - Extended Preview

G.


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## Wombat

Huzzah!  The resurrection of one of the finest threads ENWorld has ever seen!


----------



## Galloglaich

Thanks, man.

There is another, arguably better trailer for RTB here:

Reclaiming The Blade

I really can't recommend it highly enough.

G.


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## Dannyalcatraz

Dude, I'm going to take your post about the worm and cross-post it to one (or more) of the threads dealing with aquatic campaigns- quite nice.

For giggles, you might be even more scared by news about Box jellyfish swarms
Killer jellyfish population explosion warning - Telegraph

and a report of a Lions Mane jellyfish that may have been as much as 20 tons on the deck of the _Kuranda_ back in the 1970s.
CRYPTOZOOLOGY ONLINE: Still on the Track: GUEST BLOGGER GLEN VAUDREY: Jellyfish japes
Cryptozoology.com


----------



## Galloglaich

I found a cool article about Norse Elves, says pretty much the same stuff I did but I think in a more elegant way:

Elf: Facts, Discussion Forum, and Encyclopedia Article

G.


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## Galloglaich

A bit more on Wise women, Wiess Frauen, and the Dame Blanche:

Witte Wieven - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dames Blanches (folklore) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Galloglaich

Pbartender said:


> You forgot John Dee...
> 
> *John Dee* 13 July 1527 – 1608 or 1609 AD (81 or 81) was a noted mathematician, astronomer, astrologer, occultist, and consultant to Queen Elizabeth I. He also devoted much of his life to the study of alchemy, divination, and Hermetic philosophy.
> 
> John Dee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Yeah he is a good one.  Fascinating character.  I barely scratched the surface of Renaissance Magic, Mnemonics or Alchemy, I want to do some posts on that soon.

G.


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## Galloglaich

Ok here I'm going to post an article on military history I wrote which I thought could serve here as a little introduction into a particularly interesting region of Europe (Bohemia), which could possibly provide fodder for Historical or quasi-Historical campaigns in DnD or other games (it would be a natural for Warhammer FRPG) or you might find some adventure hooks or other useful ideas.

This is an overview of two major events in the development of the politics and culture of this interesting region of Europe which I believe played a special role in the development of the European Martial arts.

*Mongol Invasions 1241 AD*






Very very few people seem to be aware of this, but during the famous Mongol invasion of Europe in the 13th century, after defeating the Poles and Teutonic Knights at Leigneitz on their way to defeat the Hungarians at Sajo river, the Mongols tangled with the Bohemians ... and lost.



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> In 1241 Wenceslaus successfully repelled a raid on Bohemia by forces serving under Batu Khan and Subutai of the Mongol Empire as part of the Mongol invasion of Europe. The Mongols did not sent their main army to the Kingdom of Poland, Bohemia and Silesia and only Moravia suffered devastation at their hands. The raids into these four areas were led by Baidar, Kadan and Orda Khan with a force of around 20,000 Mongols. Following the Mongol victory at the Battle of Legnica, Wenceslaus fell back to gather reinforcements from Thuringia and Saxony, but was overtaken by the Mongol vanguard at Kłodzko. However, the Bohemian cavalry easily fended off the Mongol detachment. As Baidar and Kadan's orders had been to serve as a diversion, they turned away from Bohemia and Poland and went southward to join Batu and Subutai, who had crushed the Hungarians at the Battle of Mohi.




Wenceslaus I of Bohemia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





The importance of this "raid" by 20,000 Mongol warriors on European, German or Mongol history can be debated, but it's importance on the Czechs and Bohemia is undeniable.  Prominent among the many reasons why vast zones of Eastern Europe, Central Asia and the Middle East lag behind Western Europe on many levels was being sacked by the Mongol hordes.  This is not something you recover from overnight, a proper Mongol sacking wasn't the ordinary garden variety rape and pillage you might get from mere Goths or Vandals or Saracens... the Mongols routinely systematically depopulated the regions they conquered, and in many cases methodically burned and dismantled towns (including several famous libraries), filled in wells with rubble, tore down bridges, even broke up terracing on hills...  All in the spirit of jolly old Ghengiz Khan, who abhorred cities and felt the world should be made into one great Steppe.

Escaping this fate was a macrohistorical event for this region.

*Hussite Wars 1420-1434*

The next key event was the Hussite Wars. Again, something of a sidebar in European History, apparently, but of immense importance in this region.  Statues of the principle figures still prominent in places like Prague the way those of Washington and Jefferson are in the United States.

Hussite Wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hussite Wars, 1420-1434

In a nutshell, the Bohemians had a kind of mini Protestant reformation 100 years early.  It started with a heresy based on the teachings of the English theologian  John Wycliffe.  In this time after the death of their King the Bohemians were facing the annexation of their nation by the HRE and the Catholic Church and the elimination of their traditional autonomy, and the region was in turmoil.  

That is when Jan Hus  sort of a Ghandi type, translated the bible into the vernacular, preached a new radical doctrine of equal justice (symbolized by giving the laity the right to drink wine at Communion, which lead to the goblet appearing on the Hussite flag) and quite strange for this time, (but not for this region) equality for women.  



			
				Jan Hus said:
			
		

> “ Women were made in the image of God and should fear no man”



setting the stage for women to preach at Hussite services and participate in governing councils, not to mention fight beside their men in battle.  





He was invited to discuss these statements at a theological conference in Germany where he was promptly burned at the stake*.  This led to a massive uprising back in Bohemia and a famous “defenestration” (a nice way of saying a lot of Bishops and Lords were marched up to the tops of towers and church steeples and thrown out of windows) in Prague, Pilsen and other towns.  There was a nasty ethnic side to this religious conflict, and atrocities were also committed against ethnic Germans in some regions, though many sided with the Czechs, notably in the larger cities.









They created a new full blown heresy based on the teachings of Jan Hus which came to be called “Hussites”





This prompted the Pope to call a Crusade, which was quickly answered by armies from across Europe, eager to pillage the rich region of Bohemia and gain remittances in the process.





Normally a crusading army on the way to assault and ravage your homeland would be cause for serious concern, but the Bohemians had this guy  Jan Ziska a badass Clint Eastwood type dude with a patch over one eye who liked to carry a mace.  Ziska helped them organize and develop new battle tactics based on their traditional weapons (which may have some significance for HEMA and the Federfechter) Among the  innovations of the Hussites:

-Pioneering the use of both firearms and artillery (including inventing new pieces such as the pistol and the hook gun, as well as various forms of single and multi-barreled cannons)





-Pioneering the use of sophisticated wagonberg tactics, integrating infantry, artillery, and mobile fortresses made of wagons which could be chained together for mutual defense

Hussite Wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wagon fort - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

featuring the enhanced systematic use of handgonnes / hand culverins 





and articulated clubs / flails wielded by peasants skilled in threshing (including Women) 






Thus fortified for battle, the Hussites met the foreign onslaught and _smashed_ the large international Crusading army which invaded Bohemia, and did the same to every other which followed, 

Hussite Wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hussite Wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hussite Wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hussite Wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...and then went on a number of rampages through Germany, even reaching the Baltic where they allegedly performed some kind of weird pagan ceremony.  

Hussite Wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Finally radical wings of the Hussites, the “Taborites” (who made their own new utopian city Tabor which remains a largely intact 15th century city) 





...and the radicals lead in some cases by dangerous demagogues, split off from the main group and tried to establish the new order, leading to civil wars among the Hussites.  Ziska sided with the radical Taborites and defeated the Aristocrats and the city of Prague, but each time the Crusaders returned the two sides patched up their differences and joined ranks against the enemies.  Finally, Ziska died in 1424, having never lost a battle.

There were several more attempted invasions in the next few years, all of which ended in victory by the Hussites under their new leader Prokop the Great.  In the end the Vatican and the HRE cut a deal with the moderates (called Ultraquists) and together they broke the power of the radicals (who called themselves the "Orphans" since the death of their hero Ziska), thus achieving nominal suzerainty over the area, but Bohemia retained their de-facto independence and maintained it's own religious and practices until well after the Protestant Reformation, into the 17th Century in some zones.  Which trust me had a lot of consequences on how the place developed and what it is like to this day.






G.

* But he may not continue to burn in hell forever though, the Vatican is reconsidering his case: 
Vatican reconsidering view on Jan Hus - Bohemian reformer | Christian Century | Find Articles at BNET


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## Jack7

Gall, since my family, at least as far as I can tell from what I think was the original derivation of my surname, seems to have originated on the border region between Saxony and Bohemia (indeed I suspect my middle name is Bohemian in origin) I found this entry to be especially interesting.

Keep up the good work my good man.

Your posts are always fascinating and useful.


Coincidentally, I've been thinking about having the *Basilegate* and the *Caerkara* undertake some missions in Europe and one of the places I really want them to explore is Bohemia (because of my own ancestral ties). I've also been thinking on matters of *Heirlooms, Legacies, and Inheritances*.

So if you know of any practices, or famous incidents involving heirlooms, legacies, or inheritances in Bohemia or the surrounding area, then I'd like to see a write up on it. It wouldn't have to be time-frame specific in relation to Constantinople, just something to give my some new ideas for writing up new adventures, missions, and scenarios. That is if you have the time and know of anything interesting.


I also very much enjoyed the entries on Jan Hus (my kids and I recently finished both a book and film on Wycliffe, mainly about his efforts to translate the Bible into English, and I know of John Huss through his religious reforms), and on Jan Ziska. By the way the type of Mace the statue of Ziska shows him carrying, that is my favorite kind of mace design.

I'm also very much intrigued with the idea of Tabor as a Utopian City. I'm thinking about using this idea for the establishment and development of a new international city on Ghantik which will even include some humans from Avalon and the Isle of Wight.

Anyway, very good post.

Thanks,

Jack.


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## The Shaman

The Hussite wagons were really clever: sloped walls, gun ports, ammunition caches. Absolutely fascinating military technology.


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## Choranzanus

On the topic of Zizka: that was really an interesting guy. He became a brigand after a powerful noble family of Rosenbergs in southern Bohemia killed his wife and impoverished him, but somehow he later obtained a pardon from king and even became a bodyguard of queen. He had a large sword wound over his face from an age of ten, so his face was entirely deformed and he was very ugly. Most of the statues show Zizka carrying a mace, but it is more a symbol of rank than a favourite weapon. Earliest depictions of him show him carrying a warhammer (thought warhammer is often considered a kind of mace, same difference).


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## Galloglaich

Choranzanus said:


> On the topic of Zizka: that was really an interesting guy. He became a brigand after a powerful noble family of Rosenbergs in southern Bohemia killed his wife and impoverished him, but somehow he later obtained a pardon from king and even became a bodyguard of queen. He had a large sword wound over his face from an age of ten, so his face was entirely deformed and he was very ugly. Most of the statues show Zizka carrying a mace, but it is more a symbol of rank than a favourite weapon. Earliest depictions of him show him carrying a warhammer (thought warhammer is often considered a kind of mace, same difference).




Wow that is really interesting choranzanus, I didn't know that part of his personal history. Somebody really needs to do a modern movie of his life, he is such an incredible guy, (I know there was some done in Czechoslakia in the 70's.? but more people need to see this)

I've been watching a lot of Czech and Polish films lately, particularly the series based on Henryk Sienkiewicz, the films _Ogniem i mieczem _and _Potop_ (these names translate to "The Deluge" and "With Fire and Sword"). These are the only modern films I've seen which portray European Martial arts as realistically as Kirosawa does Japanese Martial arts. The saber duel in the Deluge is one of the all time classics of film, as good as the best swashbuckler fencing of the 30's and 40's. I've been fencing for 10 years and I can tell you, this is a fantastic fight on a number of levels (enough to make me forgive the inevitable conversation at the bind  ):

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx_vLz-DXjs"]YouTube - sabre duel[/ame]

Ogniem i mieczem also has some battle scenes where the Cossacks are using Hussite style war-wagons against Polish Winged Hussars, which is fascinating to watch (not to mention Cossack slavic dancing and totally insane horse tricks)

There is this other terrific Polish film set in the 9th Century called Stara Barsn ("The old Fairy Tale"), but I only have it in Polish (I can't find it with subtitles) so I don't understand what anybody is saying. You can follow the plot though easily enough. 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYwdiUPFRCg"]YouTube - Stara BaÅ›Å„ - Arkona - Po Syroi Zemle[/ame]

It's got real norse and slavic gods, realistic early medieval communities (who don't look like cavemen), even without understanding a word anybody says (except the occasional 'thank you' which is the only word I know in Polish) it's one of the best DnD type films I have ever seen (although admittedly that isn't saying much.. and the fencing was pretty bad, nothing like The Deluge sadly  ).

I wish we could get more people to see this kind of stuff in the US I think it would revive interest in History.

G.


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## Galloglaich

The Shaman said:


> The Hussite wagons were really clever: sloped walls, gun ports, ammunition caches. Absolutely fascinating military technology.




Indeed.  It's interesting, the more I read about European military history, the more I find out how much was pioneered in areas like this.  The Old Swiss Confederacy for example invented the Halberd and later the pike, and all the sophisticated tactics which went with them, as a result of the attempted invasions by the Hapsburgs who were trying to conquer their land basically the same way as with the Crusaders in Bohemia.  Similar with the Flemish Godendag at Golden Spurs as well.  In all three zones they also made leaps and bounds in the development of firearms and cannon, and siege warfare technology.  

I remember reading about a ship -mine used by the (Flemish) United Provinces to break a Spanish seige I think in the 16th Century.  It was essentially a shaped charge, an Italian engineer helped them put it toether, they put heavy gravestones on the deck and in the bilges so the blast (and rubble they had put in for shrapnel) would be concentrated horizontally, it was astoundingly effective.  They killed several hundred Spanish troops who were blocking the river in one fell swoop.

EDIT: I found a link to this story, it was a seige of Antwerp:

The development of mine warfare: a ... - Google Books

The Venetian Republic ruled the Med largely from the simple innovation of using paid crews instead of chained up slaves on their war galleys. 


G.


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## Galloglaich

a new review came out, from a player in Spain, not perfect English but I think he "gets" the idea of the codex perfectly. 

DriveThruRPG.com - Codex Martialis V1.0 Reviews


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## Galloglaich

Jack7 said:


> Gall, since my family, at least as far as I can tell from what I think was the original derivation of my surname, seems to have originated on the border region between Saxony and Bohemia (indeed I suspect my middle name is Bohemian in origin) I found this entry to be especially interesting.
> 
> Keep up the good work my good man.
> 
> Your posts are always fascinating and useful.
> 
> 
> Coincidentally, I've been thinking about having the *Basilegate* and the *Caerkara* undertake some missions in Europe and one of the places I really want them to explore is Bohemia (because of my own ancestral ties). I've also been thinking on matters of *Heirlooms, Legacies, and Inheritances*.
> 
> So if you know of any practices, or famous incidents involving heirlooms, legacies, or inheritances in Bohemia or the surrounding area, then I'd like to see a write up on it. It wouldn't have to be time-frame specific in relation to Constantinople, just something to give my some new ideas for writing up new adventures, missions, and scenarios. That is if you have the time and know of anything interesting.
> 
> 
> I also very much enjoyed the entries on Jan Hus (my kids and I recently finished both a book and film on Wycliffe, mainly about his efforts to translate the Bible into English, and I know of John Huss through his religious reforms), and on Jan Ziska. By the way the type of Mace the statue of Ziska shows him carrying, that is my favorite kind of mace design.
> 
> I'm also very much intrigued with the idea of Tabor as a Utopian City. I'm thinking about using this idea for the establishment and development of a new international city on Ghantik which will even include some humans from Avalon and the Isle of Wight.
> 
> Anyway, very good post.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jack.




Thanks Jack much appreciated, I was looking at some of your stuff, quite a well developed campaign world, a far cry from Eberron!  

I highly recommend visiting Czech Republic, it's one of the most beautiful places in Europe, so much of the architecture from the 15th century is still remaining, and I found the people there wonderful.

Regarding Jan Hus et al, yes it's fascinating, as are all these radical millinarian heresies which were active in this period.  You might find some of these links interesting as well:

Taborite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Adamites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Beguines and Beghards - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Picards - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Brethren of the Free Spirit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...and of course the Albigensian Crusade which you are probably very familiar with.

At the very least, fodder for some interesting NPC groups, and related political / religious drama for your campaign.  These folks were a thorn in the side of religous authority for a long time in Europe.


G.


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## Galloglaich

double_post


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## Jack7

Gall,

I've had very little time lately for anything but work, however I wanted to tell you that I really appreciate you giving me some points of research to pursue.

Soon as I get some free time I'll investigate what you posted for me.

Thanks. Gotta go.

Jack.


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## Galloglaich

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Dude, I'm going to take your post about the worm and cross-post it to one (or more) of the threads dealing with aquatic campaigns- quite nice.
> 
> For giggles, you might be even more scared by news about Box jellyfish swarms
> Killer jellyfish population explosion warning - Telegraph
> 
> and a report of a Lions Mane jellyfish that may have been as much as 20 tons on the deck of the _Kuranda_ back in the 1970s.
> CRYPTOZOOLOGY ONLINE: Still on the Track: GUEST BLOGGER GLEN VAUDREY: Jellyfish japes
> Cryptozoology.com




I missed this before about the Lions Mane jellyfish... holy crap!!

G.


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## Galloglaich

*Navigating the ancient seas*

Speaking of maritime campaigns, there is a really cool historical resource available for gamers interested in including any kind ship travel, trading, or exploration called a Periplus. 

Periplus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A periplus was a type of navigational document the ancients used in lieux of a map, analagous to the instructions you may have written down on a piece of paper to get to somebodies house in the days before the internet, except with a few more interesting details ... and the fact that these are a couple of thousand years old.

This is my favorite periplus, the Periplus of the Erythian Sea. This entire document oozes adventure, if you can read this without wanting to start playing an RPG your brain is wired different from mine. 

These are the navigational directions of an ancient Greek mariner who sailed the long trading route from Alexandria, Egypt, down the Red Sea to the horn of Africa (Erythian is analagous to Eritrean or Etheopian) and into the Indian Ocean. It is an easy and engaging read, full of cool details about the exotic artefacts, commodities (incense, ivory, spices, etc.) which could be traded and the curious, colorful, and / or dangerous habits of the people who lived near every anchorage along the way. 

I like it so much I am posting the whole thing here:

(keep in mind this isn't somebodies fantasy novel, these are the words of a real trader who traveled these seas 2,000 years ago)






Periplus of the Erythraean Sea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ancient History Sourcebook: The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea: Travel and Trade in the Indian Ocean by a Merchant of the First Century



			
				An Ancient Mariner said:
			
		

> *Ancient History Sourcebook: *
> *The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea: *
> *Travel and Trade in the Indian Ocean by a Merchant of the First Century*
> 1. Of the designated ports on the Erythraean Sea, and the market-towns around it, the first is the Egyptian port of Mussel Harbor. To those sailing down from that place, on the right hand, after eighteen hundred stadia, there is Berenice. The harbors of both are at the boundary of Egypt, and are bays opening from the Erythraean Sea.
> 
> 2. On the right-hand coast next below Berenice is the country of the Berbers. Along the shore are the Fish-Eaters, living in scattered caves in the narrow valleys. Further inland are the Berbers, and beyond them the Wild-flesh-Eaters and Calf-Eaters, each tribe governed by its chief; and behind them, further inland, in the country towards the west, there lies a city called Meroe.
> 
> 3. Below the Calf-Eaters there is a little market-town on the shore after sailing about four thousand stadia from Berenice, called Ptolemais of the Hunts, from which the hunters started for the interior under the dynasty of the Ptolemies. This market-town has the true land-tortoise in small quantity; it is white and smaller in the shells. And here also is found a little ivory like that of Adulis. But the place has no harbor and is reached only by small boats.
> 
> 4. Below Ptolemais of the Hunts, at a distance of about three thousand stadia, there is Adulis, a port established by law, lying at the inner end of a bay that runs in toward the south. Before the harbor lies the so-called Mountain Island, about two hundred stadia seaward from the very head of the bay, with the shores of the mainland close to it on both sides. Ships bound for this port now anchor here because of attacks from the land. They used formerly to anchor at the very head of the bay, by an island called Diodorus, close to the shore, which could be reached on foot from the land; by which means the barbarous natives attacked the island. Opposite Mountain Island, on the mainland twenty stadia from shore, lies Adulis, a fair-sized village, from which there is a three-days' journey to Coloe, an inland town and the first market for ivory. From that place to the city of the people called Auxumites there is a five days' journey more; to that place all the ivory is brought from the country beyond the Nile through the district called Cyeneum, and thence to Adulis. Practically the whole number of elephants and rhinoceros that are killed live in the places inland, although at rare intervals they are hunted on the seacoast even near Adulis. Before the harbor of that market-town, out at sea on the right hand, there lie a great many little sandy islands called Alalaei, yielding tortoise-shell, which is brought to market there by the Fish-Eaters.
> 
> 5. And about eight hundred stadia beyond there is another very deep bay, with a great mound of sand piled up at the right of the entrance; at the bottom of which the opsian stone is found, and this is the only place where it is produced. These places, from the Calf-Eaters to the other Berber country, are governed by Zoscales; who is miserly in his ways and always striving for more, but otherwise upright, and acquainted with Greek literature.
> 
> 6. There are imported into these places, undressed cloth made in Egypt for the Berbers; robes from Arsinoe; cloaks of poor quality dyed in colors; double-fringed linen mantles; many articles of flint glass, and others of murrhine, made in Diospolis; and brass, which is used for ornament and in cut pieces instead of coin; sheets of soft copper, used for cooking-utensils and cut up for bracelets and anklets for the women; iron, which is made into spears used against the elephants and other wild beasts, and in their wars. Besides these, small axes are imported, and adzes and swords; copper drinking-cups, round and large; a little coin for those coming to the market; wine of Laodicea and Italy, not much; olive oil, not much; for the king, gold and silver plate made after the fashion of the country, and for clothing, military cloaks, and thin coats of skin, of no great value. Likewise from the district of Ariaca across this sea, there are imported Indian iron, and steel, and Indian cotton cloth; the broad cloth called monache and that called sagmatogene, and girdles, and coats of skin and mallow-colored cloth, and a few muslins, and colored lac. There are exported from these places ivory, and tortoiseshell and rhinoceros-horn. The most from Egypt is brought to this market from the month of January to September, that is, from Tybi to Thoth; but seasonably they put to sea about the month of September.
> 
> 7. From this place the Arabian Gulf trends toward the east and becomes narrowest just before the Gulf of Avalites. After about four thousand stadia, for those sailing eastward along the same coast, there are other Berber market-towns, known as the 'far-side' ports; lying at intervals one after the other, without harbors but having roadsteads where ships can anchor and lie in good weather. The first is called Avalites; to this place the voyage from Arabia to the far-side coast is the shortest. Here there is a small market-town called Avalites, which must be reached by boats and rafts. There are imported into this place, flint glass, assorted; juice of sour grapes from Diospolis; dressed cloth, assorted, made for the Berbers; wheat, wine, and a little tin. There are exported from the same place, and sometimes by the Berbers themselves crossing on rafts to Ocelis and Muza on the opposite shore, spices, a little ivory, tortoise-shell, and a very little myrrh, but better than the rest. And the Berbers who live in the place are very unruly.
> 
> 8. After Avalites there is another market-town, better than this, called Malao, distant a sail of about eight hundred stadia. The anchorage is an open roadstead, sheltered by a spit running out from the east. Here the natives are more peaceable. There are imported into this place the things already mentioned, and many tunics, cloaks from Arsinoe, dressed and dyed; drinking-cups, sheets of soft copper in small quantity, iron, and gold and silver coin, not much. There are exported from these places myrrh, a little frankincense, (that known as far-side), the harder cinnamon, duaca, Indian copal and macir, which are imported into Arabia; and slaves, but rarely.
> 
> 9. Two days' sail, or three, beyond Malao is the market-town of Mundus, where the ships lie at anchor more safely behind a projecting island close to the shore. There are imported into this place the things previously set forth, and from it likewise are exported the merchandise already stated, and the incense called mocrotu. And the traders living here are more quarrelsome.
> 
> 10. Beyond Mundus, sailing toward the east, after another two days' sail, or three, you reach Mosyllum, on a beach, with a bad anchorage. There are imported here the same things already mentioned, also silver plate, a very little iron, and glass. There are shipped from the place a great quantity of cinnamon, (so that this market-town requires ships of larger size), and fragrant gums, spices, a little tortoise shell, and mocrotu, (poorer, than that of Mundus), frankincense, (the far-side), ivory and myrrh in small quantities.
> 
> 11. Sailing along the coast beyond Mosyllum, after a two days' course you come to the so-called Little Nile River, and a fine spring, and a small laurel-grove, and Cape Elephant. Then the shore recedes into a bay, and has a river, called Elephant, and a large laurel-grove called Acannae; where alone is produced the far-side frankincense, in great quantity and of the best grade.
> 
> 12. Beyond this place, the coast trending toward the south, there is the Market and Cape of Spices, an abrupt promontory, at the very end of the Berber coast toward the east. The anchorage is dangerous at times from the ground-swell, because the place is exposed to the north. A sign of an approaching storm which is peculiar to the place, is that the deep water becomes more turbid and changes its color. When this happens they all run to a large promontory called Tabae, which offers safe shelter. There are imported into this market town the things already mentioned; and there are produced in it cinnamon (and its different varieties, gizir, asypha, areho, iriagia, and moto) and frankincense.
> 
> 13. Beyond Tabae, after four hundred stadia, there is the village of Pano. And then, after sailing four hundred stadia along a promontory, toward which place the current also draws you, there is another market-town called Opone, into which the same things are imported as those already mentioned, and in it the greatest quantity of cinnamon is produced, (the arebo and moto), ind slaves of the better sort, which are brought to Egypt in increasing numbers; and a great quantity of tortoiseshell, better than that found elsewhere.
> 
> 14. The voyage to all these farside market-towns is made from Egypt about the month of July, that is Epiphi. And ships are also customarily fitted out from the places across this sea, from Ariaca and Barygaza, bringing to these far-side market-towns the products of their own places; wheat, rice, clarified butter, sesame oil, cotton cloth, (the monache and the sagmatogene), and girdles, and honey from the reed called sacchari. Some make the voyage especially to these market-towns, and others exchange their cargoes while sailing along the coast. This country is not subject to a King, but each market-town is ruled by its separate chief.
> 
> 15. Beyond Opone, the shore trending more toward the south, first there are the small and great bluffs of Azania; this coast is destitute of harbors, but there are places where ships can lie at anchor, the shore being abrupt; and this course is of six days, the direction being south-west. Then come the small and great beach for another six days' course and after that in order, the Courses of Azania, the first being called Sarapion and the next Nicon; and after that several rivers and other anchorages, one after the other, separately a rest and a run for each day, seven in all, until the Pyralax islands and what is called the channel; beyond which, a little to the south of south-west, after two courses of a day and night along the Ausanitic coast, is the island Menuthias, about three hundred stadia from the mainland, low and and wooded, in which there are rivers and many kinds of birds and the mountain-tortoise. There are no wild beasts except the crocodiles; but there they do not attack men. In this place there are sewed boats, and canoes hollowed from single logs, which they use for fishing and catching tortoise. In this island they also catch them in a peculiar wav, in wicker baskets, which they fasten across the channel-opening between the breakers.
> 
> 16. Two days' sail beyond, there lies the very last market-town of the continent of Azania, which is called Rhapta; which has its name from the sewed boats (rhapton ploiarion) already mentioned; in which there is ivory in great quantity, and tortoise-shell. Along this coast live men of piratical habits, very great in stature, and under separate chiefs for each place. The Mapharitic chief governs it under some ancient right that subjects it to the sovereignty of the state that is become first in Arabia. And the people of Muza now hold it under his authority, and send thither many large ships; using Arab captains and agents, who are familiar with the natives and intermarry with them, and who know the whole coast and understand the language.
> 
> 17. There are imported into these markets the lances made at Muza especially for this trade, and hatchets and daggers and awls, and various kinds of glass; and at some places a little wine, and wheat, not for trade, but to serve for getting the good-will of the savages. There are exported from these places a great quantity of ivory, but inferior to that of Adulis, and rhinoceros-horn and tortoise-shell (which is in best demand after that from India), and a little palm-oil.
> 
> 18. And these markets of Azania are the very last of the continent that stretches down on the right hand from Berenice; for beyong these places the unexplored ocean curves around toward the west, and running along by the regions to the south of Aethiopia and Libya and Africa, it mingles with the western sea.
> 
> 19. Now to the left of Berenice, sailing for two or three days from Mussel Harbor eastward across the adjacent gulf, there is another harbor and fortified place, which is called White Village, from which there is a road to Petra, which is subject to Malichas, King of the Nabataeans. It holds the position of a market-town for the small vessels sent there from Arabia; and so a centurion is stationed there as a collector of one-fourth of the merchandise imported, with an armed force, as a garrison.
> 
> 20. Directly below this place is the adjoining country of Arabia, in its length bordering a great distance on the Erythraean Sea. Different tribes inhabit the country, differing in their speech, some partially, and some altogether. The land next the sea is similarly dotted here and there with caves of the Fish-Eaters, but the country inland is peopled by rascally men speaking two languages, who live in villages and nomadic camps, by whom those sailing off the middle course are plundered, and those surviving shipwrecks are taken for slaves. And so they too are continually taken prisoners by the chiefs and kings of Arabia; and they are called Carnaites. Navigation is dangerous along this whole coast of Arabia, which is without harbors, with bad anchorages, foul, inaccessible because of breakers and rocks, and terrible in every way. Therefore we hold our course down the middle of the gulf and pass on as fast as possible by the country of Arabia until we come to the Burnt Island; directly below which there are regions of peaceful people, nomadic, pasturers of cattle, sheep and camels.
> 
> 21. Beyond these places, in a bay at the foot of the left side of this gulf, there is a place by the shore called Muza, a market-town established by law, distant altogether from Berenice for those sailing southward, about twelve thousand stadia. And the whole place is crowded with Arab shipowners and seafaring men, and is busy with the affairs of commerce; for they carry on a trade with the far-side coast and with Barygaza, sending their own ships there.
> 
> 22. Three days inland from this port there is a city called Saua, in the midst of the region called Mapharitis; and there is a vassal-chief named Cholaebus who lives in that city.
> 
> 23. And after nine days more there is Saphar, the metropolis, in which lives Charibael, lawful king of two tribes, the Homerites and those living next to them, called the Sabaites; through continual embassies and gifts, he is a friend of the Emperors.
> 
> 24. The market-town of Muza is without a harbor, but has a good roadstead and anchorage because of the sandy bottom thereabouts, where the anchors hold safely. The merchandise imported there consists of purple cloths, both fine and coarse; clothing in the Arabian style, with sleeves; plain, ordinary, embroidered, or interwoven with gold; saffron, sweet rush, muslins, cloaks, blankets (not many), some plain and others made in the local fashion; sashes of different colors, fragrant ointments in moderate quantity, wine and wheat, not much. For the country produces grain in moderate amount, and a great deal of wine. And to the King and the Chief are given horses and sumpter-mules, vessels of gold and polished silver, finely woven clothing and copper vessels. There are exported from the same place the things produced in the country: selected myrrh, and the Gebanite-Minaean stacte, alabaster and all the things already mentioned from Avalites and the far-side coast. The voyage to this place is made best about the month of September, that is Thoth; but there is nothing to prevent it even earlier.
> 
> 25. After sailing beyond this place about three hundred stadia, the coast of Arabia and the Berber country about the Avalitic gulf now coming close together, there is a channel, not long in extent, which forces the sea together and shuts it into a narrow strait, the passage through which, sixty stadia in length, the island Diodorus divides. Therefore the course through it is beset with rushing currents and with strong winds blowing down from the adjacent ridge of mountains. Directly on this strait by the shore there is a village of Arabs, subject to the same chief, called Ocelis; which is not so much a market-town as it is an anchorage and watering-place and the first landing for those sailing into the gulf.
> 
> 26. Beyond Ocelis, the sea widening again toward the east and soon giving a view of the open ocean, after about twelve hundred stadia there is Eudaemon Arabia, a village by the shore, also of the Kingdom of Charibael, and having convenient anchorages, and watering places, sweeter and better than those at Ocelis; it lies at the entrance of a bay, and the land recedes from it. It was called Eudaemon, because in the early days of the city when the voyage was not yet made from India to Egypt, and when they did not dare to sail from Egypt to the ports across this ocean, but all came together at this place, it received the cargoes from both countries, just as Alexandria now receives the things brought both from abroad and from Egypt. But not long before our own time Charibael destroyed the place.
> 
> 27. After Eudaemon Arabia there is a continuous length of coast, and a bay extending two thousand stadia or more, along which there are Nomads and Fish-Eaters living in villages; just beyond the cape projecting from this bay there is another market-town by the shore, Cana, of the Kingdom of Eleazus, the Frankincense Country; and facing it there are two desert islands, one called Island of Birds, the other Dome Island, one hundred and twenty stadia from Cana. Inland from this place lies the metropolis Sabbatha, in which the King lives. All the frankincense produced in the country is brought by camels to that place to be stored, and to Cana on rafts held up by inflated skins after the manner of the country, and in boats. And this place has a trade also with the far-side ports, with Barygaza. and Scythia and Ommana and the neighboring coast of Persia.
> 
> 28. There are imported into this place from Egypt a little wheat and wine, as at Muza; clothing in the Arabian style, plain and common and most of it spurious; and copper and tin and coral and storax and other things such as go to Muza; and for the King usually wrought gold and silver plate, also horses, images, and thin clothing of fine quality. And there are exported from this place, native produce, frankincense and aloes, and the rest of the things that enter into the trade of the other ports. The voyage to this place is best made at the same time as that to Muza, or rather earlier.
> 
> 29. Beyond Cana, the land receding greatly, there follows a very deep bay stretching a great way across, which is called Sachalites; and the Frankincense Country, mountainous and forbidding, wrapped in thick clouds and fog, and yielding frankincense from the trees. These incense-bearing trees are not of great height or thickness; they bear the frankincense sticking in drops on the bark, just as the trees among us in Egypt weep their gum. The frankincense is gathered by the King's slaves and those who are sent to this service for punishment. For these places are very unhealthy, and pestilential even to those sailing along the coast; but almost always fatal to those working there, who also perish often from want of food.
> 
> 30. On this bay there is a very great promontory facing the east, called Syagrus; on which is a fort for the defence of the country, and a harbor and storehouse for the frankincense that is collected; and opposite this cape, well out at sea, there is an island, lying between it and the Cape of Spices opposite, but nearer Syagrus: it is called Dioscorida, and is very large but desert and marshy, having rivers in it and crocodiles and many snakes and great lizards, of which the flesh is eaten and the fat melted and used instead of olive oil. The island yields no fruit, neither vine nor grain. The inhabitants are few and they live on the coast toward the north, which from this side faces the continent. They are foreigners, a mixture of Arabs and Indians and Greeks, who have emigrated to carry on trade there. The island produces the true sea-tortoise, and the land-tortoise, and the white tortoise which is very numerous and preferred for its large shells; and the mountain-tortoise, which is largest of all and has the thickest shell; of which the worthless specimens cannot be cut apart on the under side, because they are even too hard; but those of value are cut apart and the shells made whole into caskets and small plates and cake-dishes and that sort of ware. There is also produced in this island cinnabar, that called Indian, which is collected in drops from the trees.
> 
> 31. It happens that just as Azania is subject to Charibael and the Chief of Mapharitis, this island is subject to the King of the Frankincense Country. Trade is also carried on there by some people from Muza and by those who chance to call there on the voyage from Damirica and Barygaza; they bring in rice and wheat and Indian cloth, and a few female slaves; and they take for their exchange cargoes, a great quantity of tortoise-shell. Now the island is farmed out under the Kings and is garrisoned.
> 
> 32. Immediately beyond Syagrus the bay of Omana cuts deep into the coast-line, the width of it being six hundred stadia; and beyond this there are mountains, high and rocky and steep, inhabited by cave-dwellers for five hundred stadia more; and beyond this is a port established for receiving the Sachalitic frankincense; the harbor is called Moscha, and ships from Cana call there regularly; and ships returning from Damirica and Barygaza, if the season is late, winter there, and trade with the King's officers, exchanging their cloth and wheat and sesame oil for frankincense, which lies in heaps all over the Sachalitic country, open and unguarded, as if the place were under the protection of the gods; for neither openly nor by stealth can it be loaded on board ship without the King's permission; if a single grain were loaded without this, the ship could not clear from the harbor.
> 
> 33. Beyond the harbor of Moscha for about fifteen hundred stadia as far as Asich, a mountain range runs along the shore; at the end of which, in a row, lie seven islands, called Zenobian. Beyond these there is a barbarous region which is no longer of the same Kingdom, but now belongs to Persia. Sailing along this coast well out at sea for two thousand stadia from the Zenobian Islands, there meets you an island called Sarapis, about one hundred and twenty stadia from the mainland. It is about two hundred stadia wide and six hundred long, inhabited by three settlements of Fish-Eaters, a villainous lot, who use the Arabian language and wear girdles of palm-leaves. The island produces considerable tortoise-shell of fine quality, and small sailboats and cargo-ships are sent there regularly from Cana.
> 
> 34. Sailing along the coast, which trends northward toward the entrance of the Persian Sea, there are many islands known as the Calxi, after about two thousand stadia, extending along the shore. The inhabitants are a treacherous lot, very little civilized.
> 
> 35. At the upper end of these Calaei islands is a range of mountains called Calon, and there follows not far beyond, the mouth of the Persian Gulf, where there is much diving for the pearl-mussel. To the left of the straits are great mountains called Asabon, and to the right there rises in full view another round and high mountain called Semiramis; between them the passage across the strait is about six hundred stadia; beyond which that very great and broad sea, the Persian Gulf, reaches far into the interior. At the upper end of this Gulf there is a market-town designated by law called Apologus, situated near Charax Spasini and the River Euphrates.
> 
> 36. Sailing through the mouth of the Gulf, after a six-days' course there is another market-town of Persia called Ommana. To both of these market-towns large vessels are regularly sent from Barygaza, loaded with copper and sandalwood and timbers of teakwood and logs of blackwood and ebony. To Ommana frankincense is also brought from Cana, and from Ommana to Arabia boats sewed together after the fashion of the place; these are known as madarata. From each of these market-towns, there are exported to Barygaza and also to Arabia, many pearls, but inferior to those of lndia; purple, clothing after the fashion of the place, wine, a great quantity of dates, gold and slaves.
> 
> 37. Beyond the Ommanitic region there is a country also of the Parsids, of another Kingdom, and the bay of Gedrosia, from the middle of which a cape juts out into the bay. Here there is a river affording an entrance for ships, with a little market-town at the mouth, called Oraea; and back from the place an inland city, distant a seven days' journey from the sea, in which also is the King's court; it is called ----- (probably Rhambacia). This country yields much, wheat, wine, rice and dates; but along the coast there is nothing but bdellium.
> 
> 38. Beyond this region, the continent making a wide curve from the east across the depths of the bays, there follows the coast district of Scythia, which lies above toward the north; the whole marshy; from which flows down the river Sinthus, the greatest of all the rivers that flow into the Erythraean Sea, bringing down an enormous volume of water; so that a long. way out at sea, before reaching this country, the water of the ocean is fresh from it. Now as a sign of approach to this country to those coming from the sea, there are serpents coming forth from the depths to meet you; and a sign of the places just mentioned and in Persia, are those called graoe. This river has seven mouths, very shallow and marshy, so that they are not navigable, except the one in the middle; at which by the shore, is the market-town, Barbaricum. Before it there lies a small island, and inland behind it is the metropolis of Scythia, Minnagara; it is subject to Parthian princes who are constantly driving each other out.
> 
> 39. The ships lie at anchor at Barbaricum, but all their cargoes are carried up to the metropolis by the river, to the King. There are imported into this market a great deal of thin clothing, and a little spurious; figured linens, topaz, coral, storax, frankincense, vessels of glass, silver and gold plate, and a little wine. On the other hand there are exported costus, bdellium, lycium, nard, turquoise, lapis lazuli, Seric skins, cotton cloth, silk yarn, and indigo. And sailors set out thither with the Indian Etesian winds, about the, month of July, that is Epiphi: it is more dangerous then, but through these winds the voyage is more direct, and sooner completed.
> 
> 40. Beyond the river Sinthus there is another gulf, not navigable, running in toward the north; it is called Eirinon; its parts are called separately the small gulf and the great; in both parts the water is shallow, with shifting sandbanks occurring continually and a great way from shore; so that very often when the shore is not even in sight, ships run aground, and if they attempt to hold their course they are wrecked. A promontory stands out from this gulf, curving around from Eirinon toward the East, then South, then West, and enclosing the gulf called Baraca, which contains seven islands. Those who come to the entrance of this bay escape it by putting about a little and standing further out to sea; but those who are drawn inside into the gulf of Baraca are lost; for the waves are high and very violent, and the sea is tumultuous and foul, and has eddies and rushing whirlpools. The bottom is in some places abrupt, and in others rocky and sharp, so that the anchors lying there are parted, some being quickly cut off, and others chafing on the bottom. As a sign of these places to those approaching from the sea there are serpents, very large and black; for at the other places on this coast and around Barygazal, they are smaller, and in color bright green, running into gold.
> 
> 41. Beyond the gulf of Baraca is that of Barygaza and the coast of the country of Ariaca, which is the beginning of the Kingdom of Nambanus and of all India. That part of it lying inland and adjoining Scythia is called Abiria, but the coast is called Syrastrene. It is a fertile country, yielding wheat and rice and sesame oil and clarified butter, cotton and the Indian cloths made therefrom, of the coarser sorts. Very many cattle are pastured there, and the men are of great stature and black in color. The metropolis of this country is Minnagara, from which much cotton cloth is brought down to Barygaza. In these places there remain even to the present time signs of the expedition of Alexander, such as ancient shrines, walls of forts and great wells. The sailing course along this coast, from Barbaricum to the promontory called Papica opposite Barygaza, and before Astacampra, is of three thousand stadia.
> 
> 42. Beyond this there is another gulf exposed to the sea-waves, running up toward the north, at the mouth of which there is an island called Baeones; at its innermost part there is a great river called Mais. Those sailing to Barygaza pass across this gulf, which is three hundred stadia in width, leaving behind to their left the island just visible from their tops toward the east, straight to the very mouth of the river of Barygaza; and this river is called Nammadus.
> 
> 43. This gulf is very narrow to Barygaza and very hard to navigate for those coming from the ocean; this is the case with both the right and left passages, but there is a better passage through the left. For on the right at the very mouth of the gulf there lies a shoal, long and narrow, and full of rocks, called Herone, facing the village of Cammoni; and opposite this on the left projects the promontory that lies before Astacampra, which is called Papica, and is a bad anchorage because of the strong current setting in around it and because the anchors are cut off, the bottom being rough and rocky. And even if the entrance to the gulf is made safely, the mouth of the river at Barygaza is found with difficulty, because the shore is very low and cannot be made out until you are close upon it. And when, you have found it the passage is difficult because of the shoals at the mouth of the river.
> 
> 44. Because of this, native fishermen in the King's service, stationed at the very entrance in well-manned large boats called tappaga and cotymba, go up the coast as far as Syrastrene, from which they pilot vessels to Barygaza. And they steer them straight from the mouth of the bay between the shoals with their crews; and they tow them to fixed stations, going up with the beginning of the flood, and lying through the ebb at anchorages and in basins. These basins are deeper places in the river as far as Barygaza; which lies by the river, about three hundred stadia up from the mouth.
> 
> 45. Now the whole country of India has very many rivers, and very great ebb and flow of the tides; increasing at the new moon, and at the full moon for three days, and falling off during the intervening days of the moon. But about Barygaza it is much greater, so that the bottom is suddenly seen, and now parts of the dry land are sea, and now it is dry where ships were sailing just before; and the rivers, under the inrush of the flood tide, when the whole force of the sea is directed against them, are driven upwards more strongly against their natural current, for many stadia.
> 
> 46. For this reason entrance and departure of vessels is very dangerous to those who are inexperienced or who come to this market-town for the first time. For the rush of waters at the incoming tide is irresistible, and the anchors cannot hold against it; so that large ships are caught up by the force of it, turned broadside on through the speed of the current, and so driven on the shoals and wrecked; and smaller boats are overturned; and those that have been turned aside among the channels by the receding waters at the ebb, are left on their sides, and if not held on an even keel by props, the flood tide comes upon them suddenly and under the first head of the current they are filled with water. For there is so great force in the rush of the sea at the new moon, especially during the flood tide at night, that if you begin the entrance at the moment when the waters are still, on the instant there is borne to you at the mouth of the river, a noise like the cries of an army heard from afar; and very soon the sea itself comes rushing in over the shoals with a hoarse roar.
> 
> 47. The country inland from Barygaza is inhabited by numerous tribes, such as the Arattii, the Arachosii, the Gandaraei and the people of Poclais, in which is Bucephalus Alexandria. Above these is the very warlike nation of the Bactrians, who are under their own king. And Alexander, setting out from these parts, penetrated to the Ganges, leaving aside Damirica and the southern part of India; and to the present day ancient drachmae are current in Barygaza, coming from this country, bearing inscriptions in Greek letters, and the devices of those who reigned after Alexander, Apollodorus and Menander.
> 
> 48. Inland from this place and to the east, is the city called Ozene, formerly a royal capital; from this place are brought down all things needed for the welfare of the country about Barygaza, and many things for our trade: agate and carnelian, Indian muslins and mallow cloth, and much ordinary cloth. Through this same region and from the upper country is brought the spikenard that comes through Poclais; that is, the Caspapyrene and Paropanisene and Cabolitic and that brought through the adjoining country of Scythia; also costus and bdellium.
> 
> 49. There are imported into this market-town, wine, Italian preferred, also Laodicean and Arabian; copper, tin, and lead; coral and topaz; thin clothing and inferior sorts of all kinds; bright-colored girdles a cubit wide; storax, sweet clover, flint glass, realgar, antimony, gold and silver coin, on which there is a profit when exchanged for the money of the country; and ointment, but not very costly and not much. And for the King there are brought into those places very costly vessels of silver, singing boys, beautiful maidens for the harem, fine wines, thin clothing of the finest weaves, and the choicest ointments. There are exported from these places spikenard, costus, bdellium, ivory, agate and carnelian, lycium, cotton cloth of all kinds, silk cloth, mallow cloth, yarn, long pepper and such other things as are brought here from the various market-towns. Those bound for this market-town from Egypt make the voyage favorably about the month of July, that is Epiphi.
> 
> 50. Beyond Barygaza the adjoining coast extends in a straight line from north to south; and so this region is called Dachinabades, for dachanos in the language of the natives means 'south.' The inland country back from the coast toward the east comprises many desert regions and great mountains; and all kinds of wild beasts -- leopards, tigers, elephants, enormous serpents, hyenas, and baboons of many sorts; and many populous nations, as far as the Ganges.
> 
> 51. Among the market-towns of Dachinabades there are two of special importance; Paethana, distant about twenty days' journey south from Barygaza; beyond which, about ten days' journey east, there is another very great city, Tagara. There are brought down to Barygaza from these places by wagons and through great tracts without roads, from Paethana carnelian in great quantity, and from Tagara much common cloth, all kinds of muslins and mallow cloth, and other merchandise brought there locally from the regions along the sea-coast. And the whole course to the end of Damirica is seven thousand stadia; but the distance is greater to the Coast Country.
> 
> 52. The market-towns of this region are, in order, after Barygaza: Suppara, and the city of Calliena, which in the time of the elder Saraganus became a lawful market-town; but since it came into the possession of Sandares the port is much obstructed, and Greek ships landing there may chance to be taken to Barygaza under guard.
> 
> 53. Beyond Calliena there are other market-towns of this region; Semylla, Mandagora, Palaepatmoe, Melizigara, Byzantium, Togarum and Aurannoboas. Then there are the islands called Sesecrienae and that of the Aegidii, and that of the Caenitae, opposite the place called Chersonesus (and in these places there are pirates), and after this the White Island. Then come Naura and Tyndis, the first markets of Damirica, and then Muziris and Nelcynda, which are now of leading importance.
> 
> 54. Tyndis is of the Kingdom of Cerobothra; it is a village in plain sight by the sea. Muziris, of the same kingdom, abounds in ships sent there with cargoes from Arabia, and by the Greeks; it is located on a river, distant from Tyndis by river and sea five hundred stadia, and up the river from the shore twenty stadia. Nelcynda is distant from Muziris by river and sea about five hundred stadia, and is of another Kingdom, the Pandian. This place also is situated on a river, about one hundred and twenty stadia from the sea.
> 
> 55. There is another place at the mouth of this river, the village of Bacare, to which ships drop down on the outward voyage from Nelcynda, and anchor in the roadstead to take on their cargoes; because the river is full of shoals and the channels are not clear. The kings of both these market-towns live in the interior. And as a sign to those approaching these places from the sea there are serpents coming forth to meet you, black in color, but shorter, like snakes in the head, and with blood-red eyes.
> 
> 56. They send large ships to these market-towns on account of the great quantity and bulk of pepper and malabathrum. There are imported here, in the first place, a great quantity of coin; topaz, thin clothing, not much; figured linens, antimony, coral, crude glass, copper, tin, lead; wine, not much, but as much as at Barygaza; realgar and orpiment; and wheat enough for the sailors, for this is not dealt in by the merchants there. There is exported pepper, which is produced in quantity in only one region near these markets, a district called Cottonara. Besides this there are exported great quantities of fine pearls, ivory, silk cloth, spikenard from the Ganges, malabathrum from the places in the interior, transparent stones of' all kinds, diamonds and sapphires, and tortoise-shell; that from Chryse Island, and that taken among the islands along the coast of Damirica. They make the voyage to this place in a favorable season who set out from Egypt about the month of July, that is Epiphi.
> 
> 57. This whole voyage as above described, from Cana and Eudaemon Arabia, they used to make in small vessels, sailing close around the shores of the gulfs; and Hippalus was the pilot who by observing the location of the ports and the conditions of the sea, first discovered how to lay his course straight across the ocean. For at the same time when with us the Etesian winds are blowing, on the shores of India the wind sets in from the ocean, and this southwest wind is called Hippalus, from the name of him who first discovered the passage across. From that time to the present day ships start, some direct from Cana, and some from the Cape of Spices; and those bound for Damirica throw the shlp's head considerably off the wind; while those bound for Barygaza and Scythia keep along shore not more than three days and for the rest of the time hold the same course straight out to sea from that region, with a favorable wind, quite away from the land, and so sail outside past the aforesaid gulfs.
> 
> 58. Beyond Bacare there is the Dark Red Mountain, and another district stretching along the coast toward the south, called Paralia. The first place is called Balita; it has a fine harbor and a village by the shore. Beyond this there is another place called Comari, at which are the Cape of Comari and a harbor; hither come those men who wish to consecrate themselves for the rest of their lives, and bathe and dwell in celibacy; and women also do the same; for it is told that a goddess once dwelt here and bathed.
> 
> 59. From Comari toward the south this region extends to Colchi, where the pearl-fisheries are; (they are worked by condemned criminals); and it belongs to the Pandian Kingdom. Beyond Colchi there follows another district called the Coast Country, which lies on a bay, and has a region inland called Argaru. At this place, and nowhere else, are bought the pearls gathered on the coast thereabouts; and from there are exported muslins, those called Argaritic.
> 
> 60. Among the market-towns of these countries, and the harbors where the ships put in from Damirica and from the north, the most important are, in order as they lie, first Camara, then Poduca, then Sopatma; in which there are ships of the country coasting along the shore as far as Damirica; and other very large vessels made of single logs bound together, called sangara; but those which make the voyage to Chryse and to the Ganges are called colandia, and are very large. There are imported into these places everything made in Damirica, and the greatest part of what is brought at any time from Egypt comes here, together with most kinds of all the things that are brought from Damirica and of those that are carried through Paralia.
> 
> 61. About the following region, the course trending toward the east, lying out at sea toward the west is the island Palaesimundu, called by the ancients Taprobane. The northern part is a day's journey distant, and the southern part trends gradually toward the west, and almost touches the opposite shore of Azania. It produces pearls, transparent stones, muslins, and tortoise-shell.
> 
> 62. About these places is the region of Masalia stretching a great way along the coast before the inland country; a great quantity of muslins is made there. Beyond this region, sailing toward the cast and crossing the adjacent bay, there is the region of Dosarene, yielding the ivory known as Dosarenic. Beyond this, the course trending toward the north, there are many barbarous tribes, among whom are the Cirrhadae, a race of men with flattened noses, very savage; another tribe, the Bargysi; and the Horse-faces and the Long-faces, who are said to be cannibals.
> 
> 63. After these, the course turns toward the east again, and sailing with the ocean to the right and the shore remaining beyond to the left, Ganges comes into view, and near it the very last land toward the east, Chryse. There is a river near it called the Ganges, and it rises and falls in the same way as the Nile. On its bank is a market-town which has the same name as the river, Ganges. Through this place are brought malabathrum and Gangetic spikenard and pearls, and rnuslins of the finest sorts, which are called Gangetic. It is said that there are gold-mines near these places, and there is a gold coin which is called caltis. And just opposite this river there is an island in the ocean, the last part of the inhabited world toward the cast, under the rising sun itself; it is called Chryse; and it has the best tortoise-shell of all the places on the Erythraean Sea.
> 
> 64. After this region under the very north, the sea outside ending in a land called This, there is a very great inland city called Thinae, from which raw silk and silk yarn and silk cloth are brought on foot through Bactria to Barygaza, and are also exported to Damirica by way of the river Ganges. But the land of This is not easy of access; few men come from there, and seldom. The country lies under the Lesser Bear, and is said to border on the farthest parts of Pontus and the Caspian Sea, next to which lies Lake Maeotis; all of which empty into the ocean.
> 
> 65. Every year on the borders of the land of This there comes together a tribe of men with short bodies and broad, flat faces, and by nature peaceable; they are called Besatae, and are almost entirely uncivilized. They come with their wives and children, carrying great packs and plaited baskets of what looks like green grape-leaves. They meet in a place between their own country and the land of This. There they hold a feast for several days, spreading out the baskets under themselves as mats, and then return to their own places in the interior. And then the natives watching them come into that place and gather up their mats; and they pick out from the braids the fibers which they call petri. They lay the leaves closely together in several layers and make them into balls, which they pierce with the fibers from the mats. And there are three sorts; those made of the largest leaves are called the large-ball malabathrum; those of the smaller, the medium-ball; and those of the smallest, the small-ball. Thus there exist three sorts of malabathrum, and it is brought into India by those who prepare it.
> 
> 66. The regions beyond these places are either difficult of access because of their excessive winters and great cold, or else cannot be sought out because, of some divine influence of the gods. ​



Combine this with say, a read through of H.P. Lovecrafts Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath, you are well situated for an awesome campaign

Have fun navigating the demon haunted seas!

G.


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## El Mahdi

Wow!  That was one of the best posts in the thread, and that's saying a lot considering what all you've posted in this thread.  I'd never really thought about what it would be like to travel by sea without maps.  You just keep bringing some truly awesome stuff.  This is by far, my favorite thread.  Thanks for all of it.


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## Galloglaich

Another interesting character who apparently wrote a Periplus which we know of from other writers references to it but no longer have, is this guy:

Pytheas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...who apparently sailed from Massallia (Marseilles) to England and back in or around the 4th Century BC.  He also made it up to the Baltic and back.  He is a hero in Marseilles they have a statue of him there.

G.


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## Jack7

> Wow! That was one of the best posts in the thread, and that's saying a lot considering what all you've posted in this thread. I'd never really thought about what it would be like to travel by sea without maps. You just keep bringing some truly awesome stuff. This is by far, my favorite thread. Thanks for all of it.




Indeed EM. What I find fascinating is that the author mentions cities like Meroe and places like Scythia (for instance) in reference to their locations, cultural and religious habits, dietary traditions, and histories (both present for that time and historical as understood by the traveler) etc. as a means of navigational and geographical identification.

Which if you stop to think about it awhile would be a perfectly logical and entirely useful method of navigation. It also shows one exactly how individuals such as mariners, traders, merchants, adventurers, soldiers, etc. (people who traveled from place to place as part of their occupation) were true and real sources of enormous stores of oral and written information, and were exposed regularly to things that more sedentary people and locale-affixed people were not (that's always been the case of course, but this just underscores it - there might be said to be a sort of exception to this rule through use of modern technology but nothing beats actual travel and exploration to develop a real base of experience).

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned this type of material is perfect for my own setting, and I intend to research this whole subject far more thoroughly when I get the chance. Occasionally I go on archaeological expeditions and note-rendering systems like this would be ideal methods of record keeping (rather than just creating dry data points, making descriptions in correlation to a wide range of background material relevant to whatever you're exploring or investigating.) Also this would also be a good method of describing a Vadding expedition, and would even make a good literary exercise for a fictional story. 

You could also take a system like this, adapt it into a short hand code, and make excellent military and INTEL use of the information it contained without anyone knowing the real purpose of the information. (Because number one it would be encoded, and number two rather than being coordinate specific or mapped - thus giving a clue as to actual intent, it would look like a sort of meandering set of travel or tourist information or directions.) In other words it would be as useful in land navigation of areas where prior data is lacking as it would be for maritime navigation. That is you could encode and make it as tactically detailed as possible to describe small areas (sort of like a CIA factbook in localized detail), put it on a phone app and locate specific places and people when you don't have already developed coordinates and photographs (and other data) for reference. You gather your information first and then use that to guide you locating efforts and you don't have to arouse suspicion in attempting to locate someone by asking a bunch of questions in the field as you work. As a matter of fact I think I'm gonna write up a little proposal for study of the matter and pass it on to some others.

Gall you have a real talent for research and as a scientist, an historian, and a hobbyist this thread is almost always both extremely interesting and  very, very useful.

I'd have to say it is my favorite single thread here as well.
I could mine this thing for data and information for weeks and find some interesting use for most of it.

Excellent work.


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## Galloglaich

Ok as promised earlier, here is another colorful anecdote on the subject of Wyrms, this time from the Vikings... in fact one of the most famous Vikings in history, Ragnar Lodbrok

Ragnar, whose cognomen translates to 'hairy pants', was both a very colorful literary character and a man whose actions "echo in eternity" as few others have before or since. We know he really existed and there are quite a few legends about him, but we don't really know much about his real life which took place just before the dawn of written history in this part of the world (Scandinavia). 

Ragnar was portrayed by Ernest Borgnine in this famous (and frankly awesome, though totally unhistorical) 1958 film starring Kirk Douglas as one of his sons, and Tony Curtis as Kirks nemesis, a slave and illegitimate British prince.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvB1jLld1W0"]YouTube - The Vikings[/ame]

We do know a little bit more about Ragnars death, and considerably more from both written archeological records about the events which occurred right after his death, namely the invasion and sacking of Britain by a massive Viking army led by his sons, supposedly in revenge for his killing at the hands of a Saxon King.

Serpents played a major role in Ragnars life, he earned his Cognomen (fairly late in his career) for slaying two fearsome "Wyrms" in Sweden, and died when he was shipwrecked in Northumbria, England, and the local Saxon King Aella had him thrown into a pit of vipers. 






As he was being bitten to death, Ragnar predicted the reaction by his powerful and already famous (and possibly adoptive) sons Ivar the Boneless, Bjorn Ironsides, Sigurd Snake-Eye Halfdan and Ubbe Ragnarson in a famous laconic comment: "Oh how the little pigs will squeal when they learn the fate of the old boar". He then composed his own death-poem according to the Icelandic skald-lay, the *Krákumál* (or lay of Kraka) in words that still resonate today.


_"We swung our sword;_
_that was ever so long ago_
_when we walked in Gautland_
_to the murder of the dig-wulf._
_Then we received Þóra;_
_since then__(at that battle _
_when I killed the heather-fish)_
_people called me Furry-pants._
_I stabbed the spear_
_into the loop of the earth."_

He was right about the little pigs, Ivar and the boys conquered every kingdom in Britain save Wessex, and that was saved only by a miracle by one of the most capable leaders the British Isles have ever seen, Alfred the Great. Aella was captured by Ragnars sons who carved the blood eagle on his back. 

I could go on and on about the exploits of Ragnars sons and the Vikings, but this is about dragons. So I'm going back to an earlier point in Ragnars semi-mythical life. 

We have two sources on Ragnar, the *Gesta Danorum *('History of the Danes') by Saxo Grammaticus , and a short Saga called *Ragnarssona þátt *(tale of ragnar's sons). The story we are interested in today takes place after Ragnar has already divorced his formidable first wife Lathgertha (who nevertheless comes back to save his life at a critical moment many years later) and goes courting a new wife Thora, a sort of Damsel in distress (later to be replaced another impressive she-warrior named Aslaug, a formidable shield-maiden who according to legend once led 1,500 soldiers into battle)

Anyway, Thora (also called Kraka) while beautiful, had a nasty pest problem that Ragnar had to deal with before he could go 'a courting. Quoting the wiki:

_Herrauðr, the earl of Götaland and one of Ragnar's vassals has a daughter Þora Town-Hart who is very beautiful. He gives her a lindworm, but after some time, it encircles her bower and threatens anyone who approaches it, except for her servants who fed it with an ox every day. At his bragarfull, Herrauðr promises his daughter to the man who kills the serpent._
_When Ragnar hears of this, he goes to Västergötland and dresses himself in shaggy clothes that he has treated with tar and sand. He takes a spear and approaches the serpent which blows poison at him. Ragnar protects himself with his shield and his clothes and spears the serpent through its heart. He then cuts off the serpent's head, and when the people find out what has happened, he marries Thora._



			
				sidebar said:
			
		

> Criptozoological aside, the Lindworm had sort of a 'bigfoot' craze in Sweden in the 19th Century, when many people still claimed to see them.
> 
> Lindworm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Saxo Grammaticus, a gifted if not always accurate writer, had a bit more colorful description of this event in book IX of his Gesta Danorum:

OMACL: The Danish History: Book Nine

_Afterwards, changing his love, and desiring Thora, the daughter of the King Herodd, to wife, Ragnar divorced himself from Ladgerda; for he thought ill of her trustworthiness, remembering that she had long ago set the most savage beasts to destroy him. Meantime Herodd, the King of the Swedes, happening to go and hunt in the woods, brought home some snakes, found by his escort, for his daughter to rear. She speedily obeyed the instructions of her father, and endured to rear a race of adders with her maiden hands. Moreover, she took care that they should daily have a whole ox-carcase to gorge upon, not knowing that she was privately feeding and keeping up a public nuisance. The vipers grew up, and scorched the country-side with their pestilential breath. Whereupon the king, repenting of his sluggishness, proclaimed that whosoever removed the pest should have his daughter._


_Many warriors were thereto attracted by courage as much as by desire; but all idly and perilously wasted their pains. Ragnar, learning from men who travelled to and fro how the matter stood, asked his nurse for a woolen mantle, and for some thigh-pieces that were very hairy, with which he could repel the snake-bites. He thought that he ought to use a dress stuffed with hair to protect himself, and also took one that was not unwieldy, that he might move nimbly. And when he had landed in Sweden, he deliberately plunged his body in water, while there was a frost falling, and, wetting his dress, to make it the less penetrable, he let the cold freeze it. Thus attired, he took leave of his companions, exhorted them to remain loyal to Fridleif, and went on to the palace alone. *When he saw it, he tied his sword to his side, and lashed a spear to his right hand with a thong. As he went on, an enormous snake glided up and met him. Another, equally huge, crawled up, following in the trail of the first. They strove now to buffet the young man with the coils of their tails, and now to spit and belch their venom stubbornly upon him. Meantime the courtiers, betaking themselves to safer hiding, watched the struggle from afar like affrighted little girls. The king was stricken with equal fear, and fled, with a few followers, to a narrow shelter. But Ragnar, trusting in the hardness of his frozen dress, foiled the poisonous assaults not only with his arms, but with his attire, and, singlehanded, in unweariable combat, stood up against the two gaping creatures, who stubbornly poured forth their venom upon him. For their teeth he repelled with his shield, their poison with his dress. At last he cast his spear, and drove it against the bodies of the brutes, who were attacking him hard. He pierced both their hearts, and his battle ended in victory.*_

_After Ragnar had thus triumphed the king scanned his dress closely, and saw that he was rough and hairy; but, above all, he laughed at the shaggy lower portion of his garb, and chiefly the uncouth aspect of his breeches; so that he gave him in jest the nickname of Lodbrog. Also he invited him to feast with his friends, to refresh him after his labours. Ragnar said that he would first go back to the witnesses whom he had left behind. He set out and brought them back, splendidly attired for the coming feast. At last, when the banquet was over, he received the prize that was appointed for the victory. By her he begot two nobly- gifted sons, Radbard and Dunwat. These also had brothers -- Siward, Biorn, Agnar, and Iwar._

So was it a dragon or just a bad snake infestation? Who knows, but the whole thing makes for an interesting story, full of detail and flavor you can use to add dragons into a Viking campaign.

G.

Next: Dragon slayers who are werewolves...


----------



## Galloglaich

Statue of a lindworm





Klagenfurt Austria


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## Galloglaich

I found a fantastic resource for all things Roman, if you are into that and you want to see what the real stuff was like (rather than somebody elses interpretation)

including swords






Roman Military Equipment: Weapons - Gladius, Spatha, Pugio, Pilum


helmets






Military Equipment: Decorated Parade Armour

Daggers






Roman Military Equipment: Weapons - Gladius, Spatha, Pugio, Pilum

Artillery





Roman Military Equipment: Weapons - Gladius, Spatha, Pugio, Pilum

Shields







etc.


----------



## Galloglaich

The hard life (and death) of a real Medieval knight

Skeleton reveals violent life and death of medieval knight - Telegraph


----------



## Galloglaich

Modern Rogues Cant?

Irish Traellers secret languages, this is great stuff

Shelta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some other modern Cants

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cant_(language)


----------



## Daern

*Reclaiming the Blade*

I just  saw Reclaiming the blade... pretty good,  though i guess I had already learned most of this from reading this thread.
Now I want to track down Alatriste, and take up swordfighting again.


----------



## Galloglaich

Glad you liked it.  A lot of my friends were in that film.

G.


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## Galloglaich

New book just released.

It's an encyclopedia of historical weapons for role playing games, I made it 100% Open Game Content so that it could be helpful to gamers, game developers and people who like to tinker.  I wanted it to be available as a baseline for basically anyone who likes fantasy or historical rpgs.  I figured it would take two weeks since I already had a database, but it ended up taking me the better part of six months.  I'm real happy with it.







Codex Martialis: Weapons of the Ancient World - Part 1, Melee Weapons PRE RELEASE - Ire Games | DriveThruRPG.com


----------



## El Mahdi

Picked it up from RPGNow and did a coursory look-over.  On first look I really like what I see.  Kind of reminds me of the old Palladium Weapons & Armor book, but _waaaayyy_ better.  The artwork is excellent.  Both the illustrations of the weapons, and the historical artwork.  The descriptions of the weapons, and especially what purpose they were designed for, are top notch.  And all of the historical extras throughout the book are just icing on the cake.  I know you guys only have two books out, but I'm very much a fan.

So, are you planning on giving ranged weapons and armor the same treatment? (The book does say "Part 1".)


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

If what El Mahdi says is true, that sounds like a solid purchase!  

Is there going to be a physical copy available, or is it to remain pdf only?  (If its the former, it may just wind up on my shelf next to my Design Group encyclopedia of weapons.)


----------



## Galloglaich

Hey guys,

Thanks for the comments Madhi! I hope you clicked the tab for automatic updates there should be more coming in that document, we are adding a few more weapons and a couple more optional rules in the final release.

Yes we are going to do a followup document for missile weapons and armor, probably not as long. Not sure when I'm going to get to it. I'm also recruiting some people to help with an historically based magic supplement and a lifepath character generation supplement, but those are much further down the road.

And yes it is going to be released hardback, I'm trying to set it up right now with lulu but I have to change how the fonts are embedded apparently, I'm going to have to take a look at that again this weekend. 

Also unfortunatley with lulu the interior art would have to be black and white since they don't print full color (just the covers). The full release version should have all that cleared up and I'll post a link on our website to the lulu print on demand version once it's set up.

Now that I'm finally done with that though I'm going to take a little break from all that and I'll be able to post some more fun historical stuff in here, I've been wanting to do one on werewolves for a while now... maybe I should wait until Halloween... 


G


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## Galloglaich

Dannyalcatraz said:


> If what El Mahdi says is true, that sounds like a solid purchase!
> 
> Is there going to be a physical copy available, or is it to remain pdf only? (If its the former, it may just wind up on my shelf next to my *Design Group encyclopedia of weapons*.)




Hey could you provide a link to that I was looking for it but couldn't find it, I like to check out the competition 

G


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

> Is there going to be a physical copy available, or is it to remain pdf only? (If its the former, it may just wind up on my shelf next to my Design Group encyclopedia of weapons.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey could you provide a link to that I was looking for it but couldn't find it, I like to check out the competition
Click to expand...



Well, either you have to be a Hollywood insider to get the Design Group Encyclopedia of Weapons (its quite fashionable)..._OR_ you can follow the link provided to find the book I meant to mention, the _Diagram _Group's Encyclopedia of weapons!

Weapons: An International Encyclopedia From 5000 B.C. to 2000 A.D., Updated Edition by Diagram Group | LibraryThing


----------



## Galloglaich

*When Wolves go big, bad....*

This is one of my favorite historical subjects around this time of year.

One of the scariest true life werewolf stories ever written, the legend and trial of Stubbe peter

*Peter Stumpp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*

Peter aka "The Werewolf of Bedburg" was either a serial killer, the victim of religious persecution, or a real werewolf, or perhaps some combination of the three.  His arrest, trial, and eventual execution were recounted in a pamphlet translated into English which made him (posthumously) famous in 1590.  I could go on about it, but the story speaks for itself:



> A true Discourse
> Declaring the damnable life
> and death of one Stubbe Peeter, a most
> wicked Sorcerer, who in the likenes of a
> Woolfe, committed many murders, continuing this
> diuelish practise 25. yeeres, killing and deuouring
> Men, Woomen, and
> Children.
> Who for the same fact was taken
> and executed the 31. of October
> neer the Cittie of Collin
> in Germany.
> Trulye translated out of the high Duch, according to the Copie printed in Collin, brought ouer into England by George Bores ordinary Poste, the xj. daye of this present Moneth of Iune 1590. who did both see and heare the same.​AT LONDON
> Printed for Edward Venge, and are to be
> solde in Fleet street at the signe of the
> Vine
> 
> A most true Discourse,
> declaring the life and death of one
> Stubbe Peeter, being a most
> Wicked Sorcerer.
> 
> Those whome the Lord dooth leaue to followe the Imagination of their own hartes, dispising his proffered grace, in the end through the hardnes of hart and contempt of his fatherly mercy, they enter the right path to perdicion and destruction of body and soule for euer : as in this present historie in perfect sorte may be seene, the strangenes whereof, together with the cruelties committed, and the long time therein continued, may driue many in doubt whether the same be truth or no, and the ratherfore that sundry falce & fabulous matters haue heertofore passed in print, which hath wrought much incredulitie in ye harts of all men generally, insomuch that now a daies fewe thinges doo escape be it neuer so certain, but that it is embased by the tearm of a lye or falce reporte. In the reading of this story, therefore I doo first request reformation of opinion, next patience to peruse it, because it is published for examples sake, and lastly to censure thereof as resaon and wisdome dooth think conueniet, considereing the subtilty that Sathan vseth to work on the soules destruction, and the great matters which the accursed practise of Sorcery dooth efect, the fruites whereof is death and destruction for euer, and yet in all ages practised by the reprobate and wicked of the earth, some in one sort and some in another euen as the Deuill, who was a murderer from the beginning, whose life and eath and most bloody practises the discourse following dooth make iust reporte.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the townes of Cperadt and Bedbur neer vnto collin in high Germany, there was continually brought vp and nourished one Stubbe Peeter, who from his youth was greatly inclined to euill, and the practising of wicked Artes euen from twelue yeers of age till twentye, and so forwardes till his dying daye, insomuch that surfeiting in the Damnable desire of magick, negromancye, and sorcery, acquainting him selfe with many infernall spirites and feendes, insomuch that forgetting ye God that made him, and that Sauiour that shed his blood for mans redemption : In the end, careles of saluation gaue both soule and body to the deuil for euer, for small carnall pleasure in this life, that he might be famous and spoken of on earth, though he lost heauen thereby. The Deuill who hath a readye eare to listen to the lewde motions of cursed men, promised to give vnto him whatsoeuer his hart desired during his mortall life : whereupon this vilde wretch neither desired riches nor promotion, nor was his fancy satisfied with any externall of outward pleaure, but hauing a tirannous hart, and a most cruell bloody minde, he only requested that at his plesure he might woork his mallice on men, Women, and children, in the shape of some beast, wherby he might liue wihtout dread or danger of life, and vnknowen to be the executor of any bloody enterprise, which he meant to commit: TheDeuill who sawe him a fit instrumet to perfourm mischeefe as a wicked feend pleased with the desire of wrong and destruction, gaue vnto him a girdle which being put about him, he was straight transfourmed into the likenes of a greedy deuouring Woolf, strong and mighty, with eyes great and large, which in the night sparkeled like vnto brandes of fire, a mouth great and wide, with most sharpe and cruell teeth, A huge body, and mightye pawes : And no sooner should he put off the same girdle, but presently he should appeere in his former shape, according to the proportion of a man, as if he hadneuer beene changed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stubbe Peeter heerwith was exceedingly well pleased, and the shape fitted his fancye and agreeed best with his nature, being inclined to blood and crueltye, therefore satisfied with this strange and diuelish gifte, for that it was not troublesome nor great in cariage, but that it might be hidden in a small room, he proceeded to the execution of sundry most hainous and vilde murders, for if any person displeased him, he would incontinent thirst for reuenge, and no sooner should they or any of theirs walke abroad in the feeldes or about the Cittie, but in the shape of a Woolfe he would presentlye incounter them, and neuer rest till he had pluct out their throates and teare their ioyntes a sunder : And after he had gotten a taste heerof, he tooke such pleasure and delight in shedding of blood, that he would night and day walke the Feelds, and work extreame cruelties.
> 
> 
> 
> And sundry times he would goe through the Streetes of Collin, Bedbur, and Cperadt, in comely habit, and very ciuilly as one well knowen to all the inhabitants therabout, & oftentimes was he saluted of those whose feendes and children he had buchered, though nothing suspected for the smae. In these places, I say, he would walke vp & down, and if he could spye either Maide, Wife or childe, that his eyes liked or his hart lusted after, he would waite their issuing out of ye Cittie or town, if he could by any meanes get them alone, he would in the feeldes rauishe them, and after in his Wooluishe likenes cruelly murder them : yea often it came to passe that as he walked abroad in the feeldes, if he chaunste to spye a companye of maydens playing together, or else a milking of their Kine, in his Woolusihe shape he would incontinent runne among them, and while the rest escaped by flight, he would be sure to laye holde of one, and after his filthy lust filfilled, he would murder he presentlye, beside, if he had liked or knowne any of them, looke who he had a minde vnto, her he would pursue, whether she were before or behinde, and take her from the rest, for such was his swiftnes of foot while he continued a woolf : that he would outrunne the swiftest greyhound in that Countrye : and so muche he had practised this wickednes, that ye whoel Prouince was feared by the cruelty of this bloody and deuouring Woolfe. Thus continuing his diuelishe and damnable deedes within the compas of fewe yeeres, he had murdered thirteene yong Children, and two goodly yong women bigge with Child, tearing the Children out of their wombes, in the most bloody and sauedge sorte, and after eate their hartes panting hotte and rawe, which he accounted dainty morsells & best agreeing to his Appetite.
> Moreour he vsed many times to kill Lambes and Kiddes and such like beastes, feeding on the same most vsually raw and bloody, as if he had beene a naturall Woolfe indeed, so that all men mistrusted nothing lesse then this his diuelish Sorcerie.
> 
> 
> He had at that tiem liuing a faire yong Damosell to his Daughter, after whom he also lusted most vnnaturallye, and cruellye committed most wicked inceste with her, a most groce and vilde sinne, far surmounting Adultrye or Fornication, though the least of the three dooth driue the soule inot hell fier, except hartye repentance, and not altogither so wickedlye giuen, who was called by the name of commendacions of all those that knewe her : And such was his inordinate lust and filthye desire toward her, that he begat a Childe by her, dayly vsing her as his Concubine, but as an insaciate and filthy beast, giuen ouer to woork euil, with greedines he also lay by as the wickednes of his hart lead him : Moreour being on a time sent for to a Gossip of his there to make merry and good cheere, ere he thence departed he so wunne the woman by his faire and flattering speech, and so much preuailed, yt ere he departed the house : he lay by here and euer after had her companye at his commaund, this woman had to name Katherine Trompin, a woman of tall and comely stature of exceeding good fauour and one that was well esteemed among her neighbours. But his lewde and inordinat lust bing not satisfied with the company of many Concubines, nor his wicked fancye contented with the beauty of any woman, at length the deuill sent vnto him a wicke dspirit in the similitude and likenes of a woman, so faire of face and comelye of personage, that she resembled rather some heauenly Helfin then any mortall creature, so farre her beauty exceeded the choisest sorte of women, and with her as with his harts delight, he kept company the space of seuen yeeres, though in the end she proued and was found indeed no other then a she Deuil, notwithstanding, this lewd sinne of lecherye did not any thing asswage his cruell and bloody minde, but continuing an insatiable bloodsucker, so great was the ioye he took therin, that he accouted no day spent in the pleasure wherin he had not shed some blood not respecting so much who he did murder, as how to murder and destroy them, as the matter ensuing dooth manifest, which may stand for a speciall note of a cruell and hart hart. For hauing a proper youth to his sonne, begotten in the flower and strength of his age, the firste fruite of his bodye, in whome he took such ioye, that he did commonly call him his Hartes ease, yet so farre his delight in murder exceeded the ioye he took in his only Sonne, that thirsting ater his blood, on a time he intice him into the feeldes, and from thence into a Forrest hard by, where making excuse to stay about the necessaries of nature, while the yong man went on forward, incontinent in the shape and likeness of a Woolfe he encountred his owne Sonne, and there most cruelly slewe him, which doon, he presently eat the brains out of his head as a most sauerie and dainty delycious meane to staunch his greedye apetite : the most monstrous act that euer man heard off, for neuer was knowen a wretch from nature so far degenerate.
> 
> 
> Long time he continued this vilde and villanous life, sometime in the likenes of a Woolfe, sometime in the habit of a man, sometime in the Townes and Citties, and sometimes in the Woods and thickettes to them adioyning, whereas the duche coppye maketh mention, he on a time mette with two men and one woman, whom he greatly desired to murder, and the better to bring his diuelish purpose to effect, doubting by them to be ouermatched and knowing one of them by name, he vsed this pollicie to bring them to their end. In subtill sorte he conuayed himselfe far before them in their way and craftely couched out of their sight, but as soone as they approached neere the place where he lay, he called one of them by his name, the partye hearing him selfe called once or twice by his name, supposing it was some familiar freend that in iesting sorte stood out of his sight, went from his companye towarde the place from whence the voice proceeded, of purpose to see who it was, but he was no sooner entered within the danger of this transformed man, but incontinent he was murdered in ye place, the rest of his company staying for him, expecting still his returne, but finding his stay ouer long : the other man lefte the woman, and went to looke him, by which means the second man was also murdered, the woman then seeing neither of both returne againe, in hart suspected that some euill had fan vpon them, and therefore with all the power she had, she sought to saue her selfe by flight, though it nothing preuailed, for good soule she was also soone ouertake by this light footed Wolfe, whom when he had first deflowered, he after most cruelly murdered, then men were after found mangled in the wood, but the womans body was neuer after seene, for she the caitife had most rauenoulye deoured, whose fleshe he esteemed both sweet and dainty in taste.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *"for good soule she was also soone ouertake by this light footed Wolfe, whom when he had first deflowered, he after most cruelly murdered, then men were after found mangled in the wood, but the womans body was neuer after seene, for she the caitife had most rauenoulye deoured, whose fleshe he esteemed both sweet and dainty in taste."*
> 
> Thus this damn able Stubbe Peeter liued the tearme of fiue and twenty yeeres, unsuspected to be Author of so many cruell and vnnaturall murders, in which time he had destroyed and spoyled an vnknowed number of Men, Women, and Children, sheepe, Lambes, and Goates : and other Catttell, for when he could not through the warines of people drawe men, Women, or Children in his danger, then like a cruell and tirannous beast he would woorke his cruelty on brut beasts in most sauadge sort, and did act more mischeefe and cruelty then would be credible, although high Germany hath been forced to taste the trueth thereof.
> 
> 
> By which meanes the inhabitantes of Colling, Bedbur and Cperadt, seeing themselues so greeuously endaungered, palgued, and molested by this greedy & cruel Woolfe, who wrought continuall harme and mischeefe, insomuch that few or none durst trauell to or from those places without good prouision of defence, and all for feare of this deuouring and fierce woolf, for oftentimes the Inhabitants found the Armes & legges of dead Men, Women, and Children, scattered vp and down the feelds to their great greefe and vexation of hart, knowing the same to be doone by that strange and cruell Woolfe, whome by no meanes they could take or ouercome, so that if any man or woman mist their Childe, they were out of hope euer to see it again aliue, mistrusting straight that the Woolfe had destroyed it.
> 
> 
> And heere is to be noted a most strange thing which setteth foorth the great power and mercifull prouidence of God to ye comfort of eache Christian hart. There were not long agoe certain small Children playing in a Medowe together hard by ye town, where also some sotre of kine were feeding, many of them hauing yong calues sucking upon the : and sodainly among these Children comes this vilde Woolfe running and caught a prittie fine Girle by the choller, with intent to pull out her throat, bu tsuch was ye will of God, that he could not pearce the choller of the Childes coate, being high and very well stiffened & close claspt about her neck, and therwithall the sodaine great crye of the rest of the childre which escaped, so amazed the cattell feeding by, that being fearfull to be robbed of their young, they altogether came running against the Woolfe with such force that he was presently compelled to let oge his holde and to run away to escape ye danger of their hornes, by which meanes the Childe was preserued from death, and God be thanked reamians liuing at this day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And that this thing is true, Maister Tice Artine a Brewer dwelling at Puddlewharfe, in London, beeing a man of that Country borne, and one of good reputation and account, is able to iustifie, who is neere Kinsman to this Childe, and hath from thence twice reciued Letters conserning the same, and for that the firste Letter did rather driue him into wondering at the act then yeelding credit therunto, he had shortlye after at request of his writing another letter sent him, wherby he was more fully satisfied, and diuers other persons of great credit in London hath in like sorte receiued letters from their freends to the like effect.
> Likewise in the townes of Germany aforesaid continuall praier was vsed vnto god that it would please hime to deliuer the from the danger of this greedy Woolfe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And although they had practiced all the meanes that men could deuise to take the rauenous beast, yet vntill the Lord had determined his fall, they could not in any way preuaile : notwithstanding they daylye continued their purpose, and daylye sought to intrap him, and for that intent continually maintained great mastyes and Dogges of muche strength to hunt & chase the beast whersoeuer they could finde him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the end it pleased God as they were in readines and prouided to meete with him, that they shoud espye him in his wooluishe likenes, at what time they beset him round about, and moste circumspectlye set their Dogges of muche strength to hunt & chase the beast whersoeuer they could finde him. In the end it pleased God as they were in readines and prouided to meete with him, that they should espye him in his wooluishe likenes, at what time they beset him round about, and moste circumspectlye set their Dogges vpon him, in such sort that there was no means to escape, at which aduantage they neuer could get him before, but as the Lord deliuered Goliah into ye handes of Dauid, so was this Woolfe brought in danger of these men, who seeing as I saide before no way to secape the imminent danger, being hardly pursued at the heeles presently he slipt his girdle from about him, wherby the sahpe of a Woolfe cleane auoided, and he appeered presently in his true shape & likeness, hauing inhis hand a staffe as one walking toward the Cittie, but the hunters whose eyes was stedfastly bent vpon the beast, and seeing him in the same place metamorphosed contrary to their expectation : it wrought a wonderfull amazement in their mindes, and had it not beene that they knewe the man soone as they sawe him, they had surely taken the same to haue beene some Deuill in a mans likenes, but for as much as they knewe him to be an auncient dweller in the Towne, they came vnto him, and talking with him they brought him by communication home to his owne house, and finding him to be the man indeede, and no delusion or phantasticall motion, they had him incontinent before the Maiestrates to be examined.
> 
> 
> Thus being apprehended, he was shortly after put to the racke in the Towne of Bedbur, but fearing the torture, he volluntarilye confessed his while life, and made knowen the villanies which he had committed for the space of xxv.yeeres, also he cofessed how by Sorcery he procured of the Deuill a Girdle, which beeing put on, he forthwith became a Woolfe, which Girdle at his apprehension he confest he cast it off in a certain Vallye and there left it, whcih when the Maiestrates heard, they sent to the Vallye for it, but at their comming found nothing at al, for it may be supposed that it was gone to the deuil from whence it came, so that it was not to be found. For the Deuil hauing brought the wretch to al the shame he could, left him to indure the torments which his deedes deserued.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After he had some space beene imprisoned, the maiestrates fround out throught due examination of the matter, that his daughter Stubbe Beell and his Gossip Katherine Trompin, were both accessarye to diuers murders committed, who for the same as also for their leaud life otherwise committed, was arraigned, and with Stubbe Peeter condempned, and their seuerall Iudgementes pronounced the 28 of October 1589, in this manor, that is to saye : Stubbe Peeter as principall mallefactor, was iudged first to haue his body laide on a wheele, and with red hotte burning pincers in ten seueral places to haue the flesh puld off from the bones, after that his legges and Armes to be broken with a woodden Axe or Hatchet, afterward to haue his head strook from his body, then to haue his carkasse burnde to Ashes.
> 
> Also his Daughter and his Gossip were iudged to be burned quicke to Ashes, the same time and day with the carkasse of the aforesaid Stubbe Peeter. And on the 31. of the same moneth, they suffered death accordingly in the won of Bedbur in the presence of many peeres & princes of Germany.
> 
> Thus Gentle Reader haue I set down the true discourse of this wicked man Stub Peeter, which I desire to be a warning to all Sorcerers and Witches, which vnlawfully followe their owne diuelish imagination to the vtter ruine and destruction of their soules eternally, from which wicked and damnable practice, I beseech God keepe all good men, and from the crueltye of their wicked hartes. Amen.
> After the execution, there was by the aduice of the Maiestrates of the town of Bedbur a high pole sut vp and stronglye framed, which first went throught ye wheel wheron he was broken, whereunto also it wsa fastened, after that a little aboue the Wheele the likenes of a Woolfe was framed in the wood, to shewe unto all men the shape wherin he executed those cruelties. Ouer that on the top of the stake the sorcerers head it selfe was set vp, and round about the Wheele there hung as it were sixteen peeces of wood about a yarde in length which represented the sixteene persons that was perfectly knowen to be murdered by him.​And the same ordained to stand there for a continuall monument to all insu-
> ing ages, what murders by Stub Peeter
> was committed, with the or-
> der of his Iudgement, as
> this picture doth more
> plainelye ex-
> presse.
> Witnesses that this is
> true.
> Tyse Artyne.
> William Brewar.
> Adolf Staedt.
> George Bores.
> With diuers others that haue seen the same.​


----------



## Galloglaich

Peter Stubbe could very likely have been completely innocent ... or he may have been a serial killer. There were many other similar cases, such as Gilles De Rais in Medieval times, and Albert Fish in the US much more recently. Another case in Spain reminds me a great deal of Peter Stubbes confession:

The Wolfman of Allariz - Typically Spanish Features on Spain

the Romasanta case was made into a creepy movie in 2004

Romasanta (2004)

And guys like Albert Fish of course in more recent times.

There was also another similar 19th Century case in Romania but I can't find it right now.






Of course, on the other end of the spectrum there are also many well-documented cases of serial wolf attacks which did seem to be animals. The most famous is *La Bete De Gevudain* in the 18th Century which was the subject of at least three movies.






Beast of GÃ©vaudan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia







This is a statue made to commenorate the incident






Just for fun, a few more famous wolf attack cases:

This one is a favorite, just because the account is so dramatic:

Wolf of Soissons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> *The Wolf of Soissons was a man-eating wolf which terrorized the commune of Soissons northeast of Paris over a period of two days in 1765, attacking eighteen people, four of which died from their wounds.*
> 
> *The first victims of the wolf were a pregnant woman and her unborn child, attacked in the parish of Septmont on the last day of February. Diligent locals had taken the infant, a scant four or five months old, from the womb to be baptized before it died when the wolf struck again not three hundred yards from the scene of the first attack. One Madame d'Amberief and her son survived only by fighting together.*
> 
> *On 1 March near the hamlet of Courcelles a man was attacked by the wolf and survived with head wounds. The next victims were two young boys, named Boucher and Maréchal, who were savaged on the road to Paris, both badly wounded. A farmer on horseback lost part of his face to the wolf before escaping to a local mill, where a boy of seventeen was caught unawares and slain. After these atrocities the wolf fled to Bazoches, where it partially decapitated a woman and severely wounded a girl, who ran screaming to the village for help. Four citizens of Bazoches set an ambush at the body of the latest victim, but when the wolf returned it proved too much for them and the villagers soon found themselves fighting for their lives. The arrival of more peasants from the village finally put the wolf to flight, chasing it into a courtyard where it fought with a chained dog. When the chain broke the wolf was pursued through a pasture, where it killed a number of sheep, and into a stable, where a servant and cattle were mutilated.*
> 
> *The episode ended when one Antoine Saverelle, former member of the local militia, tracked the wolf to small lane armed with a pitchfork. The wolf sprang at him but he managed to pin its head to the ground with the instrument, holding it down for roughly fifteen minutes before an armed peasant came to his aid and killed the animal. Saverelle received a reward of three-hundred livres from Louis XV of France for his bravery.*




These are also quite lurid:

Wolves of PÃ©rigord - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wolf of Sarlat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wolves of PÃ©rigord - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wolves of Paris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia






I have read some speculation that the epidemic of wolf attacks in France in the 18th Century had to do with the population being systematically disarmed in this period, resulting in wolves becoming less fearful of the peasants over time. This seems to be the reason for the 20th Century Wolf attacks in India and Russia.

This one in Germany is interesting and definitely sounds politically related

Wolf of Ansbach - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is a great religious story about the killer wolf which was tamed by St. Francis:






Wolf of Gubbio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is one for our Swedish friends:

Wolf of Gysinge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This was one of the recent cases in India

Wolves of Ashta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and this was another 

Wolves of Hazaribagh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The craziest story I ever heard about wolf attacks was the one where hundreds of starving wolves attacked German and Russian troops during WW I. Apparently (according to the wiki anyway) the same thing happened again in WW II.

from the Wiki:



> During the First World War, starving wolves had amassed in great numbers in Kaunas, Vilna and Minsk and began attacking Imperial Russian and Imperial German fighting forces, causing the two fighting armies to form a temporary truce to fight off the animals.[6] After the fall of the Soviet Union, documents were discovered indicating that a number of wolf attacks had occurred in villages during the Eastern front. This information was apparently suppressed by the Soviet government in order to hide the consequences of the mass confiscation of firearms during the war.[7]




Here is the original 1917 New York Times article about this incredible event:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archiv...3DD103BE03ABC4151DFB166838C609EDE&oref=slogin

I wish somebody would make a movie about that one .. 

Happy Sam Hain! Awoooooooooooooooo!!!!!

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

*Cool spear fencing vid from Spain*

YouTube - Spear training


----------



## The Shaman

The Beast of Gevaudan, the Wolf of Soissons, and the Drac of Beaucaire inspired encounters for my _Flashing Blades_ campaign.


----------



## Jack7

> I just saw Reclaiming the blade




I saw it tonight and thought it well done, as a general introduction to the subject. I wish they had spent far more time examining and displaying real Western Martial techniques than speaking about Hollywood cinematic pseudo recreations, but still it was pretty good. I wish they had shown some more scenes which gave a better impression of just how fast, sharp, brutal, and violent real fights are, but I guess this was more of a presentation dealing with the rediscovery and popular applications of such techniques.

I wouldn't mind studying some of the original texts myself. I very much enjoy studying ancient and old texts.




> Glad you liked it. A lot of my friends were in that film.




If you don't mind Gall, who were your friends in the film? I'm guessing some of the younger guys in the various European Martial arts recreation groups. Or did you know some of the choreographers and scholars, etc? 

By the way I enjoyed the article about Peter Stubbe, and the one about the wolves attacking German and Russian troops. And of course the story of Saint Francis and the Wolf is one of my personal favorites as Francis in one of my favorite Saints. 

Well, I got a training exercise tomorrow.
Gonna hit the hay early.

See ya.


----------



## Galloglaich

Jack7 said:


> I saw it tonight and thought it well done, (snip) I wish they just how fast, sharp, brutal, and violent real fights are, but I guess this was more of a presentation dealing with the rediscovery and popular applications of such techniques.




Yeah I agree with you but it was a very good start at setting the record strait and putting all this stuff in context, the rise of the HEMA movement in the last ten years, the difference from the SCA and re-enactors and collegiate fencers etc.



> I wouldn't mind studying some of the original texts myself. I very much enjoy studying ancient and old texts.




Of the maybe 100 or so Medieval European martial arts or fencing manuals which have been found so far (they still find 'new' ones every few months it seems), probably 40 have been translated into English (including many of the most interesting ones) most of which you can find online now in several places, both the original scans and the translations... and maybe 10 have had good interpretations published at this point which you can buy on Amazon, with probably another 20 or 30 about to be published.  

If you like I can point you to the direction where you can find these, it's truly fascinating to me to study all this, both from a physical / martial arts point of view and just the academic / research point of view.  You gain so much insight into this world, which was so much more cool than I ever thought.  There are also free online videos (on youtube etc.) that you can watch demonstrating techniques of several of the main fencing traditions (such as German longsword, German messer, Italian dagger, Italian rapier, German ringen which is essentially analagous to Medieval jujitsu and etc.)  Some of those I've already linked up-thread but there are many more.  Let me know what you might be interested in specifically and I could show you.



> If you don't mind Gall, who were your friends in the film? I'm guessing some of the younger guys in the various European Martial arts recreation groups. Or did you know some of the choreographers and scholars, etc?




Mostly the HEMA fighters, the martial artists, though I do know Jonathan Waller, the younger of the two fight choreogrophers from the Royal Armories at Leeds, the guy with the blonde hair. He was a regular on the Riddle of Steel forum and I knew him from there.  The other guys I know from HEMA forums online mainly, Fabrice Cognot of Talles D'estoc and the annual international Longsword competition in Dijon was a contributor to the Codex.  He was the guy with the long hair who said "Swords are... coool." at one point in the movie.  Matt Easton and Dr. Gordon Brown who can be seen sparring with Shinai, and I think Matt also gave a little speach about English martial heritage or something.  I also know some of the other guys, from Sweden, who you only can see fencing.  I am also friends with Jay Vail, formerly of ARMA who spoke at one point in the film.  He is one of the top dagger fighting experts in the world, I trained with him in Tallahassee about 2 weeks ago.



> By the way I enjoyed the article about Peter Stubbe, and the one about the wolves attacking German and Russian troops. And of course the story of Saint Francis and the Wolf is one of my personal favorites as Francis in one of my favorite Saints.
> 
> Well, I got a training exercise tomorrow.
> Gonna hit the hay early.
> 
> See ya.




Glad you liked it m8, I love that kind of stuff, I wish somebody would aggregate all those kinds of stories in one place as a resource for gamers.  Maybe I should...

Good luck on your FTX..

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

The Shaman said:


> The Beast of Gevaudan, the Wolf of Soissons, and the Drac of Beaucaire inspired encounters for my _Flashing Blades_ campaign.




Man, that is a weird coincidence, a friend of mine from my fencing group was telling me about Obsidian Portal on the phone tonight... synchronicity is a strange and powerful force....

EDIT: I see you also have La Maupin in there , one of my favorite historical characters of all time (quite a bit on her here upthread).

G.


----------



## Jack7

> Of the maybe 100 or so Medieval European martial arts or fencing manuals which have been found so far (they still find 'new' ones every few months it seems), probably 40 have been translated into English (including many of the most interesting ones) most of which you can find online now in several places, both the original scans and the translations... and maybe 10 have had good interpretations published at this point which you can buy on Amazon, with probably another 20 or 30 about to be published.
> 
> If you like I can point you to the direction where you can find these, it's truly fascinating to me to study all this, both from a physical / martial arts point of view and just the academic / research point of view. You gain so much insight into this world, which was so much more cool than I ever thought. There are also free online videos (on youtube etc.) that you can watch demonstrating techniques of several of the main fencing traditions (such as German longsword, German messer, Italian dagger, Italian rapier, German ringen which is essentially analagous to Medieval jujitsu and etc.) Some of those I've already linked up-thread but there are many more. Let me know what you might be interested in specifically and I could show you.




I would indeed. I'm hoping there will be an on-line resource sort of like the one for *Da Vinci's notebooks and stuff*. Or if not, at least maybe one developed over time.

Of course I can read the manuals in English. I can also read the manuals written in Latin (though I imagine by this time few if any are written in Latin) or Italian, and most of what is written in Spanish (as long as the script itself is readable).

I can also make my way through German manuscripts (it's been a long while but I could catch up with use) and maybe through some of the French.

So just point me at some stuff and I'll handle the rest. I'll add the links to my Research files and copy off stuff for my regular work computer files, and if there are whole books available then I'll add them to my Google on-line library, so others can reach and research them. If there are book hard-copies that are done well enough then I'll probably end up adding some to my personal library. I'd want illustrated versions for my home library.

Appreciate that, as it would save me a lot of hunting. And I'm sure I've got some buddies that would like to get a'hold of that kinda thing.

You can respond here, shoot me an e-mail, or shoot me a PM at this site.

Well, I'm off to church.
See ya.

And thanks again.
Hope you're well.


----------



## Galloglaich

There are actually editions of several of these manuals in Latin.  Some German but it's Middle-high German in older dialects so that can be a bit 
tricky.

This is hands down still the best overview of HEMA, Sydney Anglos "Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe"
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Martial-Arts-Renaissance-Europe/dp/0300083521/ref=pd_sim_b_3]Amazon.com: The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe (9780300083521): Professor Sydney Anglo: Books[/ame]

Several interpretations and translations are available as books from Amazon etc., quality varies but the best translations are from Jeffrey Forgeng, IMO.  

Some examples of good translations:
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Art-Combat-German-Martial-Treatise/dp/1403970920/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258916364&sr=8-1]Amazon.com: The Art of Combat: A German Martial Arts Treatise of 1570 (9781403970923): Joachim Meyer, Jeffrey L. Forgeng: Books[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Art-Swordsmanship-Facsimile-Translation/dp/1891448382/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258916451&sr=1-2]Amazon.com: The Medieval Art of Swordsmanship: A Facsimile & Translation of Europe's Oldest Personal Combat Treatise, Ro Yal Armouries MS I.33 (Royal Armouries Monograph) (9781891448386): Jeffrey L. Forgeng: Books[/ame]


Many manauls are scanned and / or translated online, here are just a few of them:


*German Longsword*

*Joachim Meyer 1560*




English translation with black and white scanned images
Meyer's Fechtbuch

*Talhoffer 1467*

English Translation
Talhoffers Fechtbuch aus dem Jahre 1467

*Talhoffer 1459 
*(original scan in German... really nice pictures)
thott

*Paulus Hector Mair *1550 (scan with really good color images ... images start around page 30 or 40 or something)




Digitale Bibliothek - Münchener Digitalisierungszentrum

*Goliath 1452 *

Translations with images
Goliath

*Von Danzig *
Partial translations with images
von.danzig

*Sigmund Ringeck 1450 *
Scan
SCHOLA SWORDSMANSHIP FORUM • View topic - Sigmund Ringeck - 1450
Transcription
Hammaborg: Historical Swordsmanship

*Codex Wallerstein* (in German)
Scan
Codex Wallerstein

Transcription
Codex Wallerstein - Freywild
*
German Dagger*

Exceptinally good translation and interpretation of *Joachim Meyer*s dagger fighting 
Meyer Frei Fechter, Free Fencing Guild

*German Messer*
*Hans Lecküchner* 1478 

Translation and interpretation with images
http://schielhau.org/lebkommer.html
scan of original document
Cod. Pal. germ. 430: Hans LeckÃ¼chner: Kunst des Messerfechtens (Nordbayern (NÃ¼rnberg?), um 1478)

*Albrecht Durer*
Schola Gladiatoria

*Fiore (Italian Longsword, Grappling and Dagger)*
*
Flower of battle* 1410

three different English translations
Fiore Project 
Schola Gladiatoria - Fior di Battaglia - Getty 
Schola Gladiatoria - Fior di Battaglia - Morgan
*
Italian 16th Century Manuals* (Greatsword, rapier, transitional rapier, dagger, spear etc.)

*Achille Marrozzo 1568* (several partial translations)
SCHOLA SWORDSMANSHIP FORUM • View topic - Opera Nova - Achille Marozzo 1568 (3rd Ed)

*Aggrippa 1531* (scan)
http://mac9.ucc.nau.edu/manuscripts/agrippa.pdf

*Portuguese *
*Montante* (two handed sword) manual, Transcription and English translation 

http://oakeshott.org/Figueiredo_Montante_Translation_Myers_and_Hick.pdf

*French Pollaxe 15th Century *
*
Jeu Du La Hache*

English translation
Notes on Le Jeu de la Hache


----------



## Jack7

> There are actually editions of several of these manuals in Latin.




I'm surprised, but glad. I would have expected by this time that vernacular pressures would have pretty much assured that things like combat and war manuals would have been written exclusively in native tongues (for nationalistic, sectarian, and military security reasons). Still, you never lose money betting on the unusual and bizarre in history.

I really appreciate that information. I'm gonna go through them all when I can and add them to my research files and libraries.


*P.S.:* By the way, I meant to tell you that I now have Google translate on my browser. Yeah, I don't trust it completely but it'll help me get through my rusty German and not so grand French easy enough. So that's no problem. I've already tested it for usefulness. The magic and miracles of modern technology.

*P.P.S.:* And Good Lord, Albrecht Durer? The Albrecht Durer? I know the intro says there was no evidence he was a member of the Fighting Guilds, but, imagine he was. This reminds me very much of Newton acting as an agent and undercover operative for the Exchequer. It also reminds me of a time in which men were much more interesting, generally speaking (because they did so many different kinds of things over the course of their lives) than is currently the case with modern life where unfortunately people concentrate on single issue careers for most of their life (People used to have adventures associated with what they did, now they just have careers, though that too now is thankfully changing about modern society and culture). It also reminds me of the day when Artists were far more than just artists, in the modern and very small and restricted sense, but were Artists in the larger sense. I got a buddy who will get a real kick out of Durer or one of his men) illustrating this Fechtbuch.  I like the idea and so will he.

I though would like to see the day when the *Renaissance Gild* ideal becomes the norm for modern society, and people can and do freely exercise everything they are good at (though they can now if they really want to).


----------



## Galloglaich

Yeah quite a bit of the old fencing culture, perhaps surprisingly, was associated directly with the Church or Monks, such as the famous 14th Century I.33 or Walpurgis manuscript, which was written in a Monastery and depicts two Monks and a mysterious woman practicing fencing.  I think of it somewhat the same way as how a lot of good beer and liquor was and is still made in Monasteries.  Those fellows had to do more with their time than just pray I guess.

Some of the later manuals had Latin editions, most were written in the Vernacular in at least one edition, but Latin was something of the universal language of the time so could cross borders more easily.

Google Translate can be helpful but keep in mind 15th / 16th Century German is a lot different from modern German.

G.


----------



## Jack7

> Some of the later manuals had Latin editions, most were written in the Vernacular in at least one edition, but Latin was something of the universal language of the time so could cross borders more easily.




You know, I hadn't thought of that but it makes a lot of sense as a "smuggler's language."

Say you develop a fighting guild with good techniques in Venice, and that you want to keep such techniques and practices (maybe even the fact that such a Guild exists there - after all surprise is almost always the best offense) a secret, but German agents are curious to know what the Italians know, then just pay to have the text copied into Latin. Copy the illustrations with corresponding page notations in another book, smuggle that to a monastery in Germany (or wherever the target locale is) then have your monks (who read and write the same static church Latin as any other Catholic church in Christendom) then retranslate it into German, match up the illustrations, and you've got your own copy of the book.

Of course if it can be done and there is little security involved then you just have one of your agents pay for the original and then have a translator do it once in-country. But if it's in Church Latin then the work can be smuggled anywhere and easily retranslated by monks and scribes for a nominal fee (or perhaps favor to the monetary or parish) anywhere in Europe.

It would be hard to keep even militarily proprietary techniques secure from Church Latin. Because any church or monastery in Christendom (Latin Christendom anyways) can translate any material so written. 

Good observation.

It makes me wonder if any manuals of this type might be wandering about in code somewhere. 

To prevent Latin from making all such manuals "Open Books."




> Yeah quite a bit of the old fencing culture, perhaps surprisingly, was associated directly with the Church or Monks, such as the famous 14th Century I.33 or Walpurgis manuscript, which was written in a Monastery and depicts two Monks and a mysterious woman practicing fencing. I think of it somewhat the same way as how a lot of good beer and liquor was and is still made in Monasteries. Those fellows had to do more with their time than just pray I guess.




A lot of the more isolated monasteries (really rural instead of near large population centers) would have to be able to protect themselves from bands of raiders and bandits, small groups of foreign invaders and skirmishers, and even local nobles who went rogue.

No one could reach them in time if a determined party decided to raid and kill so they'd have to protect themselves if absolteutly necessary. It might be thought of as a distasteful but necessary evil.

So they would also have a personal and group interest in such manuals for self-defense when needed. And I can't help but wonder if on occasion they didn't either covertly instruct female family members, lovers, or even noble women (maybe a husband wants his wife or daughter to know how to defend herself while he's away, but societal pressures prevent open arms instruction, pay a monastery to secretly teach some females self-defense) in such arts.

Of course the illustration could have been of someone in disguise, or even a sort of illustrative code, showing that this person was playing the "female part" in the armed encounter. Could represent any number of things.

Well, I've got most of the links secured and listed in my broswers now. So I'm off to bed. I'll explore them in detail later on.


----------



## Galloglaich

_


			
				Galloglaich said:
			
		


			]If you gave players a few *cleverly wrought *tools, on the *same level of abstraction* as the rules they use already but based on what a fight is really like, they could use these to make the 'game within the game' of combat a *more fun and meaningful* part of the overall experience. Done right this could be the *solid foundation of many different styles of gaming* done in all different directions, *including your shooting flames* or whatever.
		
Click to expand...


_ 


GlaziusF said:


> I'll believe it when I see it..




Over a year after the Codex was released and six positive reviews later, I believe I have proven it was possible.

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

Ah, now you are talking some interesting stuff!



Jack7 said:


> You know, I hadn't thought of that but it makes a lot of sense as a "smuggler's language."
> 
> Say you develop a fighting guild with good techniques in Venice,




That sounds like a pretty good adventure hook getting going right there   I could definitely see a scenario like this happen back "in the day", with a couple of minor caveats.  



> It would be hard to keep even militarily proprietary techniques secure from Church Latin. Because any church or monastery in Christendom (Latin Christendom anyways) can translate any material so written.



Yes or any decent sized church, or almost any University... most educated people in fact were taught Latin in this period I believe.  Like I said, Latin was the international language of Europe in this period, just as the Church was the international administrator, at least until the Reformation.

Anyway you bring up some fascinating points, I hope you will forgive me if I take this and run with it a little, it's a good opportunity to explore this (to me) fascinating time and place.

A scenario of Germany spying on Italy per se, might be a little unlikely, if only because neither Germany or Italy existed as such in this period.  Northern Italy circa 1300 - 1600 was a series of powerful independent city-states plus the secular state (and Army) of the Vatican.  The big players were Venice, (which had the most powerful navy in the Med, possibly the World), Milan, then as now the fashion center of Europe (except they were making their most popular designs in iron) Florence, Pisa, Genoa, Brescia, Bologna and Rome and the Papal States.  Southern Italy was the property at various times of the Normans, the Arabs, the Spanish, etc.

This was an interesting period, different from what most people think of for the Middle Ages.  The Renaissance was in full swing in Italy by 1400 AD (it would reach Germany in another 30 or 40 years, it didn't get to France or England for nearly a Century) art and arcitecture were blooming, most city-dwelling people in Northern Italy were pretty well educated, 1/3 of the population was estimated to be literate.

Italian city-states - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Italian cities won independance from the HRE as early as the rather amazing Battle of Legano in 1167 when, allied with the pope, the Lombard League (a group of 20 cities) defeated the formidable German Emperor Frederick Barbarosa.







Lombard League - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Battle of Legnano - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Greater Germany" if you will was the Holy Roman Empire, which some people like to point out was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire.  It was a fairly loose amalgum of Princely states, ruled by the so-called electors (powerful barons and dukes), plus powerful free cities like in Italy (particularly the Hanseatic towns in the north such as Hamburg, Cologne, Liepzig, Danzig, Frankfurt etc.) which were designated as 'Imperial Free Cities' and made their own laws, effectively independent or rebel zones like Switzerland (cities like Berne and Basel), Holland / the Low Countries (Amsterdam, Antwerp, Brussles etc.), Bohemia (Prague) etc., wild frontiers like Poland, Hungary, and the Balkans (threatened by the ominous Turk), and a certain amount of territory genuinely under the control of the Emperor, which varied depending on which family was ascendant at any given moment.

It's also worth noting that the Martial Arts in these Fechtbucher, were not so much military secrets (though they had some military value) they were more for individual combat.  The property of Martial arts schools, in fact we know for certain that the two most prominent martial arts schools of Renaissance Germany, the Marxbruder of Frankfurt and the Federfechter of Prague, were actually fierce rivals.  I could imagine a cool DnD game where you had kind of a film noire or Western vibe featuring rival fencing schools, almost exactly like you see in your better Samurai films from the 60's.  

That said, there could have easily also been more serious rivalries between individual lords, or groups or factions of lords, and / or various cities.  Florence and Milan were constant rivals for example and always at war.  The Emperor and the Pope were always scheming, and the King of France was known to stray into Italy on a military adventure now and then.  More strategic value than martial arts manuals would be books on siege warfare, artillery or say, pike drill.  The most popular manual in this period was an old Roman siege warfare book called De Re Militari, by Vegetius.

De Re Militari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But that said, individual martial arts were still important.  Skill in individual combat was critical for knights, men at arms and Chevaliers, was also emphasized by the Swiss and a swordsman certified by one of the fencing guilds like the Marxbruder or the Federfechter could draw double pay in a Lansknecht or Condottieri company, as a so called "Dopplesoldner".  This was one of the reasons competition was so fierce among the fencing schools.  There was money in it. 



> Good observation.
> 
> It makes me wonder if any manuals of this type might be wandering about in code somewhere.
> 
> To prevent Latin from making all such manuals "Open Books."



Very good point.  

Military secrets were encrypted in this era, just like today.  There was a lively culture of encryption of documents back then almost like how all important documents are encrypted on the internet.  Cyphers in the Renaissance were incredibly sophisticated, I have seen some Grimoires which had cyphers three or even four layers deep, if you can imagine that.  So a book on etiquette is, when de-cyphered, actually a book on astrology, which, if de-cyphered, is actually a book on mnemonics, which if de-cyphered, is a book on strait up black magic.  Often parts of books would be encrypted this way, or sometimes a whole book.   Read up on some of Giodorno Bruno or John Dee's works for example. 

To aid them in this kind of work, they might use an ingenius invention like the cypher wheel.

CypherWheel-Home






See the neat thing about the Renaissance was that there were geniuses running around practically everywhere...

Leon is an exceptional example, in fact he definitely belongs on my "Dilbert in the Dungeon" list, he was the classic example of the true Renaissance Man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Battista_Alberti



> A lot of the more isolated monasteries (really rural instead of near large population centers) would have to be able to protect themselves from bands of raiders and bandits, small groups of foreign invaders and skirmishers, and even local nobles who went rogue.



Of course, it was quite common.  Robber - knights, bandits, pirates, steppe raiders etc. were a major problem in many parts of the HRE.



> No one could reach them in time if a determined party decided to raid and kill so they'd have to protect themselves if absolteutly necessary. It might be thought of as a distasteful but necessary evil.



They may not have thought it was evil at all.  Remember there were many military orders in this period, martial arts practiced in Monasteries is nothing new, think of the Far-East, and all those Samurai movies again 

In fact sometimes the Monks themselves were the aggressors.  Abbots were often lords in every sense.



> So they would also have a personal and group interest in such manuals for self-defense when needed. And I can't help but wonder if on occasion they didn't either covertly instruct female family members, lovers, or even noble women (maybe a husband wants his wife or daughter to know how to defend herself while he's away, but societal pressures prevent open arms instruction, pay a monastery to secretly teach some females self-defense) in such arts.



Again, of course, there are many documented cases of this, both on an innocent and not - so - innnocent level, both on a large and small scale. 




> Of course the illustration could have been of someone in disguise, or even a sort of illustrative code, showing that this person was playing the "female part" in the armed encounter. Could represent any number of things.



This is hotly debated in the HEMA community, but the text does specifically refer to her as a Woman.  She appears only in certain parts of the text, but the I.33 has been associated with St. Walpurgia.  

I suspect it was just a girl they were hanging around with.  Could have been somebodies sister or somebodies daughter, or it could have been somebodies girlfriend, stranger things have happened.  Nothing particularly sinister about it.  As you can see in this thread women practicing martial arts and fighting etc. was not exactly unheard of in Medieval Europe.


G.


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## Jack7

> Anyway you bring up some fascinating points, I hope you will forgive me if I take this and run with it a little, it's a good opportunity to explore this (to me) fascinating time and place.




By all means. That's how things develop and improve.




> A scenario of Germany spying on Italy per se, might be a little unlikely, if only because neither Germany or Italy existed as such in this period. Northern Italy circa 1300 - 1600 was a series of powerful independent city-states plus the secular state (and Army) of the Vatican. The big players were Venice, (which had the most powerful navy in the Med, possibly the World), Milan, then as now the fashion center of Europe (except they were making their most popular designs in iron) Florence, Pisa, Genoa, Brescia, Bologna and Rome and the Papal States. Southern Italy was the property at various times of the Normans, the Arabs, the Spanish, etc.




No, you're right. In saying Germany I meant specifically the Holy Roman Empire, but then again I was just kinda generalizing in making those suggestions. For purposes of brevity.




> See the neat thing about the Renaissance was that there were geniuses running around practically everywhere...




I've recently been listening to another series of lectures on the Medieval Era, and it occurred to me that the Medieval period, leading up to and including the Renaissance (the real beginning of the Modern Era) was full of geniuses and innovation, but the real trouble was lack of communications, and methods of mass production (and if you think about it, effective communications are really necessary for the best methods of mass production to occur and operate).

In ancient Rome you had the road system, and other means of communication (including their version of the Pony Express mail system) that were very effective and fast, and because of the Pax Romana and the advantages of a more or less untied empire, innovation could be quickly spread (relatively speaking) throughout the empire. In the Medieval era, with nationalism spreading (not in the modern sense, but in the kingdom/small empire/territorial sense), poor communications, bad roads, and a sort of sectarian mindset, no matter how brilliant someone was, their achievements and knowledge remained a basically proprietary and secluded affair. Meaning unlike in the empire, unlike in the later Renaissance, and unlike (especially our modern world, with electronic and high tech - at least to us, I'm sure our decedents will look upon our technology as primitive enough -  based communications) the present day, genius, and the implication of the works of that genius were slow to spread. 

Couple that with no real means of mass production, compared to us, or even the Romans, and innovation was relatively hamstrung, no matter how good the nature of the ideas that were be produced. In other words good ideas were being produced, but the methods of their communication and application were hampered or crippled by other factors.

(As a little sidenote, my dad once asked me why there were no Einsteins running around now, like back in the early part of the century. He said this to me maybe in the late Sixties or early Seventies. I said because geniuses were so rare. And he said he didn't think so. He said it was because in the modern world, the way it operates and with the size of the population, that there are now so many that almost none really stand out anymore. He said a commodity is only as valuable as how rare it is. I never forgot that as he predicted the fall of the Soviet Union about 15 to 20 years before it actually happened.)




> They may not have thought it was evil at all. Remember there were many military orders in this period, martial arts practiced in Monasteries is nothing new, think of the Far-East, and all those Samurai movies again




I've often wondered, given the situation with Benedict (not the current Pope, but the Saint and founder of monastic orders in the West), and some of the later founders of monastic orders, if the Byzantine efforts at monasticism (and their corresponding early idea of the Warrior-Monk) did not in fact have a far lager influence on Western monasticism than previously thought. I mean I know Benedict specifically rebelled against the idea of too strenuous and harsh ascetic practices, but that doesn't mean he would have abandoned all Eastern ideals of monastic life or obviously he wouldn't have founded Western monasteries based on Eastern models. I think he and some of the other order founders though may have been far more influenced by the Byzantine monasteries and hermitages, including the idea of monasteries being able to defend themselves and defend the Empire (in the West this would have meant the area in which they operated, under whatever flag or banner) if necessary, than is commonly considered.

I wrote one of my dissertations in college on early missionary movements in Christianity and Buddhism. It turns out that many of the very earliest efforts at missionary movements in Christianity were to the East (before, and including Paul) and Africa and were very successful for a time. Only later on did efforts turn to Rome. With Buddhism on the other hand, before going towards China the Buddhists headed West. (As a matter of fact the most successful Chinese efforts were of Chinese going West, and studying Buddhism in and around India, then bringing it home themselves.)

So I've often wondered, in examining some of the monastic practices of the Byzantine Christians, and especially of their seminal works and practices (I'm re-reading the _Philokalia_ right now) just how much Buddhism influenced Byzantine monasteries. Especially in regards to the idea of the ascetic practices, and in other ideas, such as Warrior-Monks (though that particular idea was, pragmatically speaking, relatively short lived as a real practice in the West and may have very well evolved prior to the commonly accepted Warrior Monk idea in the East - depends on how you define the idea exactly, and where you are talking about).

Of course there are large-scale and practical differences between Eastern Christian monasticism and Oriental Buddhist monasticism but there are also interesting similarities and overlaps.




> Military secrets were encrypted in this era, just like today. There was a lively culture of encryption of documents back then almost like how all important documents are encrypted on the internet. Cyphers in the Renaissance were incredibly sophisticated, I have seen some Grimoires which had cyphers three or even four layers deep, if you can imagine that. So a book on etiquette is, when de-cyphered, actually a book on astrology, which, if de-cyphered, is actually a book on mnemonics, which if de-cyphered, is a book on strait up black magic. Often parts of books would be encrypted this way, or sometimes a whole book. Read up on some of Giodorno Bruno or John Dee's works for example.
> 
> To aid them in this kind of work, they might use an ingenius invention like the cypher wheel.




I'm familiar with them, as I occasionally do encoding/decoding, encrypting/de-crypting work for the military and/or law enforcement. As a matter of fact I've been working on an "Environmental Encoding" (encoding objects found in any given natural environment that can then be decoded or deciphered - though I'm using those terms only generally speaking, not technically speaking - through reverse means) project of my own for a few years now. (I got the idea while working on a project to decode graffiti left on the walls in Baghdad that was in effect leaving information in plain sight for terrorist and sectarian operators, so I decided that rather than just breaking their codes I'd also improve upon their techniques, turn it back upon them, and develop a new method of encoding the background environment. Not just their graffiti tagging or an enemy insurgent's own "cant," as might be said, but anything in the background I decided that would be effective to encode, encipher, or encrypt. Of course that would have not just military applications, but also technological, communicative, and espionage applications.) 

That's why it struck me that any work that rendered specialized and effective combat techniques would have military value. Therefore would likely be encoded. As a matter of fact if I were a commander or ruler I would have insisted on it, had I known of such manuscripts and I would have gathered such material to create a covert or proprietary research library for my commanders. (Sort of like a multi-work _Tacticon_ for my area of command.) This would be a big tactical and even strategic advantage when there was no gun-powder weapons, or when they were of limited effect or small in number. So I'm pretty sure that rulers somewhere, long dead now, had secret libraries field with such works for the training of their forces. (Though maybe only the best commanders and trainers would be privy to the books, the other soldiers would be trained by their superiors, who learned such techniques both through personal experience and training, and through reference to successful manuals.) 

I've also been recently re-studying the _Voynich manuscript_, which I suspect does indeed contain multiple encoding, though not necessarily in the obvious way (see Environmental Encoding idea above) but that's off the subject.

Well, I was gonna say something else but my daughter walked in the office and interrupted me and I forgot it. Doesn't matter I've yakked way too long, and I need to get back to work. Pronto. But thanks for the references and ideas. Forgive the typos as I wrote fast and used Microsoft as my editor. And we all know what that leads to.

Anywho, very interesting and useful material and discussion.
It gave me some ideas for a new set of adventures set in my fantasy game world.

I'll work those up later.

See ya.


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## Galloglaich

Jack7 said:


> In ancient Rome you had the road system, and other means of communication (including their version of the Pony Express mail system) that were very effective and fast, and because of the Pax Romana and the advantages of a more or less untied empire, innovation could be quickly spread (relatively speaking) throughout the empire.




I have to disagree with the lecturer, though this is a fairly common perception going back to the 19th Century. To me, by this logic you might think the Soviet Union would have been a hotbed of innovation, or that logically planned economies would thrive more than free markets.

Rome, for all their good roads, was increasingly moribund in the last two or three Centuries of the Empire. There was very little technical innovation of any kind. In fact you might say Augustus was both the first and last effective Emperor, competent ones followed but they were precious few and far between.

In the Meideval period, by this logic, you would think that the Renaissance would have begun in a country like France which had a strong Roman-like centralized government and relatively good infrastructure. But it didn't, it started in totally chaotic northern Italy, in the relatively democratic city-state of Florence precisely around 1380, spread throughout the Po Valley and then into the loosely controlled Holy Roman Empire, specifically into the large independent trading cities of the Hanseatic League. It didn't make it to the Centralized Kingdoms of France, Spain, or England until 1500, more than a Century after it started in Florence (and then with foriegn experts brought in by Kings from Italy and Germany and Flanders etc.).

The efficiency of centralized government and infrastructure seems to be contrasted with the inevitable corruption and stagnation of centralized power - and the chaos of decentralizatoin is contrasted with the innovation that comes from relative degree of freedom. Just as the Free market works better than a planned economy, comparatively free or open political strucutres seem to lead to all kinds of technical, artistic, and even military innovations (look at the Swiss or the Ancient Greeks)



> Couple that with no real means of mass production, compared to us, or even the Romans, and innovation was relatively hamstrung, no matter how good the nature of the ideas that were be produced. In other words good ideas were being produced, but the methods of their communication and application were hampered or crippled by other factors.




Communication may have been an issue but they had mass production in Europe going back to the 11th Century, when the Cistercian monks spread the technology of the overwash water wheel and the wind-mill. By the Renaissance economic production and trade were _thriving_, in the 15th Century Milan alone was probably producing more armor than the entire Western Roman Empire was circa 300 - 400 AD.



> I've often wondered, given the situation with Benedict (not the current Pope, but the Saint and founder of monastic orders in the West), and some of the later founders of monastic orders, if the Byzantine efforts at monasticism (and their corresponding early idea of the Warrior-Monk) did not in fact have a far lager influence on Western monasticism than previously thought.




This is a very interesting point, especially the Buddhist angle. I know the 'Gaelic' Monasteries in Ireland and the British isles in the early Medieval period were more organized more like the Orthodox model, and this wasn't changed until around the 12th Century IIRC.

St Walpurgia is an Irish Saint too I think, perhaps coincidence?



> I'm familiar with them, as I occasionally do encoding/decoding, encrypting/de-crypting work for the military and/or law enforcement. As a matter of fact I've been working on an "Environmental Encoding" (encoding objects found in any given natural environment that can then be decoded or deciphered -




Very interesting, sounds like you know more about cyphers than I do. I think this is a really cool angle for RPGs, especially for your Call of Cthulhu type clues and hand-outs... maybe you could elaborate a little on some ways this can work. I'm also interested in 'cants' etc.



> That's why it struck me that any work that rendered specialized and effective combat techniques would have military value.




Yes probably, but to a somewhat limited degree - rather like teaching knife fighting to modern Marines, they might do it mostly for morale, it has benefit but somewhat limited.  Keep in mind warfare in this era was more about guns, pikes, and cannons than individual heroes contending in one on one duels.

We know most of the fechtbuchs were associated with civilians of the Burgher class, mostly for judicial combat, and with the fencing Guilds, which did have some military overlap. Almost all the manuals teach one on one fighting though.

But there is no doubt the Aristocrats had their own personal fighting systems which were taught in their own courts and castles, and there does appear to be some overlap with the Fechtbuchs, for example Ott Jud was a court martial arts (wrestling) instructor for a German count IIRC.




> Anywho, very interesting and useful material and discussion.
> It gave me some ideas for a new set of adventures set in my fantasy game world.
> 
> I'll work those up later.
> 
> See ya.




Right back at you man, fascinating discussoin. Later 

G.


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## Jack7

I'm gonna leave some of the Roman stuff aside for lack of time and because I've recently come to the conclusion that's it not really productive to argue on the internet. Not that I think we'd necessarily be arguing, but a lot of what we've both mentioned depends very much on what exactly we variously mean by scale, what exact period we're speaking of, and whether we mean the Western Roman Empire or the Eastern Roman Empire. (I gotta admit that personally speaking I am biased in favor of the Eastern rather than the Western Empire, even if I don't specifically mention it when I'm talking. So I might be talking about the Western Empire, the Eastern empire, or both, unless I clarify. I do though find your method of communicating over the intent by embedding explanatory or expanding links into your writings to be an interesting method. I've motioned it to others as a potentially very useful method of "information compression" for using the internet. Illustration without having to illustrate or explain everything yourself in detail. Leave the details up to your links. You do that more than anyone else on the internet I've ever seen, and it does potentially strike me as useful.) Usually though I just generalize due to lack of time.

And that would involve a lot of discussion about a lot of details in every case. So I'll just say I agree to an extent with your points, and I disagree to an extent, but I think a lot of it could be resolved had we the time to fully flesh out the particulars.

For instance let me use an example we've already discussed. Saint Benedict is considered the founder, or at least co-founder of Western monasticism. However Saint Columba re-established Western monasticism in the West (and it had already existed there) about concurrent to Benedict, just not in a way similar to most Western monasticism. On a model that was eventually suppressed and failed, generally speaking. So although the Irish monks existed prior to the Rule of Benedict, as they did in the East, they were not historically successful in the West. For instance the Benedictines still famously exist. So, was Benedict the Founder of Western monasticism, or was Saint Columba? Or maybe Saint Basil? Or could the Byzantine orders not be said to be the original Western monks since at that time the Empire was still united to some greater or lesser degree?

Well, a lot depends on how you define the term monasticism, whether you mean was it a successful movement or not, where did it come from, how long did it last, who are you talking to and what's their interest in the subject, etc? As the old saying goes, "details dispute, and facts occlude." 

So whereas I generally think there's a right answer, or at least a best answer to most every question (I'm no relativist), I'm willing (or maybe just long enough in the tooth) to concede that even best answers often have some very fine and reasonable points of disagreement.




> This is a very interesting point, especially the Buddhist angle. I know the 'Gaelic' Monasteries in Ireland and the British isles in the early Medieval period were more organized more like the Orthodox model, and this wasn't changed until around the 12th Century IIRC.




That's my understanding too. The so-called Orders of Columba and Columban, of Irish monasticism. Those orders were much more Orthodox in nature, especially in matters of asceticism, and far more loosely organized. They, and their native descendents were also really big on learning and preserving all sorts of intellectual matter (scared and secular) before it was really fashionable in most other monasteries and orders, not that many other orders and monasteries didn't do a good job at data preservation as well. But the Columban orders were basically suppressed in mainland Europe for both political and intellectual reasons so those orders died on the vines eventually.

I particularly like these orders though because of their association with Patrick (also one of my favorite non-Biblical Saints), because of the ways in which they were sort of similar to Byzantine monasticism, the way they revered information, and the way they were far "looser" and more adaptable than many other Orders. In college, while preparing for the seminary, I actually wrote up a Rule for a monastic Order of married Monks and their families, and I based it far more on the Irish and Byzantine orders than on Western orders. I wish I could find that thing but I lost it moving over the years. I've thought recently though about just trying my hand at re-writing it.




> Very interesting, sounds like you know more about cyphers than I do. I think this is a really cool angle for RPGs, especially for your Call of Cthulhu type clues and hand-outs... maybe you could elaborate a little on some ways this can work. I'm also interested in 'cants' etc.




I'm not sure cause I don't know how much you know, but maybe we just know different things about codes and ciphers and crypts. After all nobody knows everything about anything. So maybe we just know different aspects of the same subject matter.

As for adventures I can see adventures arising from smuggling, translations (and translation errors), and the building of both mechanical and magical encryption and encoding devices, similar to the Wheel you mentioned. (A Wizard and/or Sage for instance might build a particularly brilliant mechanical encoder/decoder, and a Sorcerer might build a device which could magically translate any language while also encoding/decoding anything that might be desired. Somebody might even build a complex mathematical encryption machine, similar to the Difference or Analytical Engine, a sort of magical or mechanical computer. With various uses. Such a thing, if others could be made to understand what it does, would be a powerful artifact or device which gives one great advantages over one's political and military enemies. that's basically what I'm leaning towards right now as far as new adventures in my milieu.)

As for other ideas one I've pursued off and on over time are the *Glyphing Wars. *

The Glyphing Wars occur in my setting in the Byzantine Empire and in parts of Africa and Asia as a sort of "underground movement or War" between humans and others involved in magic and sorcery. 

Glyphs can be used as codes of course, and as a magical script (with each glyph having particular magical properties of its own), as communication methods and devices (sometimes magically, and over long distances), and as multi-layered functions of each of those things. Also Glyphs can be used as tools to subtly manipulate the thoughts, psyche, and behavioral inclinations of others, as well as have mass or group effects sometimes.

And I've used glyphs as you described above, where a work seems to be related a coded message or communication in glyphs, and the glyphs are also covertly reshaping reality or reshaping thought and action. (I like magic that works when others don't know it is working, or have no or very little control over it.) Feeding disinformation, charming others, inducing strange behavior, etc.

Glyphs can also be used, depending on how they are shaped and written and arranged in sequence, to disrupt magical effects, to create new magic's, to help devise and invent technologies, to create new languages, and so forth and so on.  About the only thing they can't do is effect Miracles or Relics, though they can be sued to alter or disrupt the way miracles and relics seem or appear to operate. They can't curse a relic or a Miracle of God, but what they can do, if employed destructively or evilly, is to make a miracle or relic seem to malfunction or to act in some manner contrary to its nature, even though in reality it is only the perception of the thing that has been altered, not the reality. 

Well, given those things, imagine a Glyphing Machine being created. It too would be a powerful artifact, maybe even a very small one, but it could have multiple functions. You could possibly build an entire campaign around a Glyphing Machine, and of course those ideas are hardly exhaustive. What about a talking Glyphing Machine that has a built in magical charisma and that can be secretly programmed? That's just to give an idea of something I'm thinking of.

Anywho you could do a lot with ciphers, codes, and crypts and the devices that employ them, especially when mixed with magic and/or inventive innovation.

For instance think of a _Voynich_ manuscript filled with illustrations and scripts that are really secretly glyphs in disguise or in another form? Or of a Glyphing Machine that could secretly or covertly encode the ambient, natural, or associated environment? Such things would be very dangerous and powerful indeed. Not least of which because no-one knows or understands what they are really doing.




> Yes probably, but to a somewhat limited degree - rather like teaching knife fighting to modern Marines, they might do it mostly for morale, it has benefit but somewhat limited. Keep in mind warfare in this era was more about guns, pikes, and cannons than individual heroes contending in one on one duels.
> 
> We know most of the fechtbuchs were associated with civilians of the Burgher class, mostly for judicial combat, and with the fencing Guilds, which did have some military overlap. Almost all the manuals teach one on one fighting though.
> 
> But there is no doubt the Aristocrats had their own personal fighting systems which were taught in their own courts and castles, and there does appear to be some overlap with the Fechtbuchs, for example Ott Jud was a court martial arts (wrestling) instructor for a German count IIRC.




I'm gonna have to research this in detail when I get the chance. Sounds very interesting indeed.

Maybe even worth becoming involved with as an archaeological expedition or study.

Well, I gotta scoot.

Lunch break is over, my time is up, and my kids have music lessons this afternoon.

See ya later.


*P.S.:* One other thing I just thought of. 

Changing the nature of how something operates by changing the language and Script in which it is written.

For instance changing the way Magic works when a magical text or tome is translated into a language considered a Holy or Sacred Language. Say you translate a book on magic or containing spells, written in a Magical Script, into Hebrew, or High Church Latin? How might that affect the way the magic works?

Of course the same could be said to be true of vernacular scripts. If you translate magical scripts into more common languages does that do away with or dispel or disrupt the magic, or does it change it and the way it operates in either subtle or drastic ways?

What about a book on miracles, relics, and thaumaturgy (miracle working, or Divine magic)? If that is translated either into a vernacular script or a magical script then how does that affect the Divine magic?

The de facto game assumption is that imperfect or non-intentional or altered translation or transcription either disrupts or dispels written magical effects. _*What if it did neither*_, but _just changed, altered, or mutated magical and miraculous scripts, how they operated, and the amounts and details and types of power they demonstrated?_

Anyways, gotta relaly go now.


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## Dragonbait

I think my IQ just rose a few points reading this.
Hey, I can do basic division now!

+XP for several of you.


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## Matthew_

Jack7 said:


> I've often wondered, given the situation with Benedict (not the current Pope, but the Saint and founder of monastic orders in the West), and some of the later founders of monastic orders, if the Byzantine efforts at monasticism (and their corresponding early idea of the Warrior-Monk) did not in fact have a far lager influence on Western monasticism than previously thought.
> 
> Especially in regards to the idea of the ascetic practices, and in other ideas, such as Warrior-Monks (though that particular idea was, pragmatically speaking, relatively short lived as a real practice in the West and may have very well evolved prior to the commonly accepted Warrior Monk idea in the East - depends on how you define the idea exactly, and where you are talking about).



This sounds interesting. I am not familiar with a Byzantine warrior-monk precursor, could you elaborate on what you are referring to? [i.e. provide some context in terms of sources and dates]. It sounds like something worth following up.


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## Jack7

> This sounds interesting. I am not familiar with a Byzantine warrior-monk precursor, could you elaborate on what you are referring to? [i.e. provide some context in terms of sources and dates]. It sounds like something worth following up.




I did a little internet search to see if I could find on-line sources for what I was talking about and discovered some things even I had never heard of before. For instance, if these sources can be believed, and I really don't know then the Religious and Military Order of the Holy Sepulcher goes all the way back to Constantine and Helena. I'll have to investigate this myself later on to see how true it might ring.

Anyway later on I'll discuss Orthodox or Eastern (though at that time they were merely Christian, there was no real Catholic, Orthodox, or other such divisions) Hermits, Monks, Warrior Monks, and Warrior-Saints, like Saint George. And Western Warrior Monks, and by that I mean Catholic like the Templars and Hospitallers (from which we get the same root and idea as Hospitality and Hospital) which came much later. But for right now I'll have to cut this short for now as my bitch is delivering and Great Dane births can be hard sometimes. I've already had to extract one breeched pup by hand. But I'll come back to it later when things have calmed down.

Anyways I'm sure Gall and others can add a thing or two.


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## Galloglaich

I'm going to split my reply into two posts, since there is so much ground to cover here!



Jack7 said:


> I'm gonna leave some of the Roman stuff aside for lack of time and because I've recently come to the conclusion that's it not really productive to argue on the internet.




Agreed   And ... lets be candid.  Everyone has a little bit of a bias.  I'm probably a little biased in favor of the Barbarians, but I'm fascinated by all of them, and we clearly have knowledge here that kind of overlaps.  I can already tell you know a great deal more about the Byzantines than I do...  I've read the Alexiad and a book about the 4th Crusade and a handful of Wikipedia entries about the Varangian guard, beyond that I'm pretty stone ignorant.  I think we can learn a lot from each other here which is far more productive than arguing, and I suspect we agree on the facts more than we disagree...



> I do though find your method of communicating over the intent by embedding explanatory or expanding links ...



Thanks, I kind of borrowed this idea from blogs, it's actually part of an agenda to avoid arguing in favor of learning more 



> For instance let me use an example we've already discussed. Saint Benedict is considered the founder, or at least co-founder of Western monasticism. However Saint Columba re-established Western monasticism in the West



Yes the Roman Church seems to have changed things, one could argue, for the worse but I am going to kind of skirt that topic.  I agree with everything you said about the Irish monks who certainly appreciated and preserved a wealth of vital knowledge for future generations.  I also wanted to point out, regarding your idea of a Rule for married monks, I think St. Brigid tried to arrange something like that between a Monastary and a Convent... dont' remember the details though or if it succeeded.

I loved reading some of the margin notes of the Irish monks transcribing Herodotus and commenting on what a beautiful day it was an how nice the birds were and how happy he was to be alive.  Can't help sympathise with them.  Just for fun here are a couple of Irish monks ruins from the Middle Ages and the 'Dark Ages'.  (I think ancient ruins are awesome inspiration for game settings so I like to sprinkle them around my posts here)























Love the Irish round towers 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_round_tower










I believe this one dates from circa 700 AD.  It's holding up pretty good considering no mortar was used to make it.



> So although the Irish monks existed prior to the Rule of Benedict, as they did in the East, they were not historically successful in the West.



Well they were sort of suppressed and reorganized at those various synods around the end of the Viking Age, right?  After that the 'Gaelic' Church was basically Roman Catholic.

I'd like to learn more about the Byzantine orders, that sounds fascinating, I've always been impressed with their Monasteries too, they look quite formidable:















Sumela has to be the most fascinating, talk about an evocative location!  I wish I could go there one day, maybe I will eventually, been wanting to go to Turkey for about 20 years....






http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sümela_Monastery

G.


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## Galloglaich

On a totally unrelated note, for those interested in Elizabethan or Renaissance or English history, this is a pretty fascinating link which was recently posted to the Schola Gladiatoria forum by Matt Easton, an article about a 16th Century group in London called the "Blackfriar Gladiators" who appear to have been a martial arts school who did theater combat, but also fought in prize fights, including with swords (that actually went on in England until the 19th Century)

Anyway, I thought it was an amazing aritcle.

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=theatrefacpub

G.


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## Galloglaich

Jack7 said:


> Well, given those things, imagine a Glyphing Machine being created. It too would be a powerful artifact, maybe even a very small one, but it could have multiple functions. You could possibly build an entire campaign around a Glyphing Machine, and of course those ideas are hardly exhaustive.




I want to get into this in a lot more detail, but I just want to say right here, you have a Dynamite idea for an RPG Campaign, I think a really good publishable campaign that could make money.  I'm saying this as someone who has published 5 or 6 things in the industry.  You should write this up and sell it to a decent sized gaming company.  This has huge potential.  Imagine sort of a Medieval DaVinci code meets X-files type scenario, where you have a party running around chasing after clues, putting out fires caused by odd situations, and gradually recongizing and penetrating cyphers and codes at a number of different levels, only being magically manipulated with the glyphs etc.  I think it's a fantastic idea.  Would fit well in a Call of Cthulhu campaign, or Cthulhu Dark Ages, or something like Warhammer FRPG, or OGL using the Codex rules 

G.


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## Galloglaich

There is a very, very interesting discussion about the historical context of the I.33 document, the role of Monks and Monasteries in public defense and also, very interestingly, in training people for judicial combat.  Apparently the fortified Churches and Monasteries were common in far more parts of Europe than I ever realized.

Anyway you can read the discussion here, with lots of very well informed people from all over the world chiming in.

SCHOLA SWORDSMANSHIP FORUM • View topic - I.33, Lutegerus and Walpurgis - historical context?

G.


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## Jack7

I've been kinda busy with a number of things in the past few days. My bitch just littered, my uncle went into Hospice, two ladies at my church just died, I've got an article due on our last Cyberwarfare exercise, helping decorate the church, etc. So I don't wanna just flash by and make a very lackluster and basically useless responses to any of the questions I've been asked or the ideas being discussed. Cause I consider them interesting and important. But I'm tied up right now and so I'll have to make better responses later.

Plus I've been researching the subject(s) of Byzantine monasteries, hermits, Saints, Warrior-Saints, and so forth to give the best and most accurate responses I can. So just bear with me and I'll respond fully about that as soon as I can. By the way I've recently been reading an excellent book on Byzantine History by Lars Brownworth called _*Lost to the West*_. I highly recommend it. He has a podcast called "_12 Byzantine Rulers_" which I hear is excellent. *12 Byzantine Rulers*, or *here*.

Gall, I'm also gonna examine those articles when I get the chance.

Concerning the Glyphs and whatnot I've conducted an experiment the past few nights since I've had to be awake during those entire times anyways.

Last night I wrote a poem based on some coding experiments I've been conducting on a principle I call *Philopoetic Impressionism*. It's based on an idea concerning poetic contrapuntal formulations, with sometimes simultaneous harmonic overlays. Within the phrasing of individual lines there are subscripted and superscripted terms which change the meaning and definition of individual terms, sections, and the entire poem itself. (The poem itself is 232 words including the sub and superscripted terms.)

It's part of a series of poems I've written based on a code I developed years ago, but it is also part of an on-going experiment I'm conducting regarding developing a Notational System for poetry that would be similar to Western Musical Notation systems for music. (Presentation for poetry as a musical system would be part of the overall "code" in changing or encoding the poetry. Similar to the way ancient Greek functioned as a sing-song language, rather than one based merely upon pitch or inflection, but the poetry form could act as both language and music simultaneously. This then would be part of a much larger system of "Environmental Encoding," based upon written and spoken human language forms.)

Anyway the experiment came off pretty well as both a stand-alone linguistic and poetic effort, and in giving me ideas for and helping me develop a Musical Notation form for poetry. Only in this case it will be much looser than typical musical notation because it will allow the reader to much more flexibly interpret how he chooses to read the work. (And it won't be based upon artificial stress spatters and so forth as are typical for analysis of poetic stanzas and verse forms.) I'm not gonna post the poem here because I've got several buddies of mine in Intel examining the code-structure and next week I'm gonna submit it for magazine publication, but without an explanation of what it really is. Instead I'm just gonna submit it as a poem and see if anyone in the public notices any oddities in form and structure and concludes it is in fact a code. If no-one in the general public does then that will demonstrate to me that the code is well disguised in what to most people would appear as an odd, but otherwise "normal poem." (It will also be odd among modern poems in that it contains several forms of both internal and end point rhyme, including archaic forms, but that's a different matter, and a personal gripe I have with most modern and free form poetic structures. Though free-form structures can sometimes serve as good frameworks for good and hard to detect code emplacement.)

Anywho I also produced another version of the same poem but this time written in Glyphs (a gypping form I developed myself some time ago). So now through this experiment I know that it is quite possible to produce poetry which is both functional (and which makes a facade presentation of normal poetry), to encode it "impressionally," and to produce a glyphed form of the same work which contains covertly encoded within it the other two framework structures. I haven't yet calculated the exact mathematical variations of possible meaning forms this will allow me to produce, but it should be rather formidable for a tertiaarily-tiered structure, because I can alter meaning within any of the three base structures at any point by adding what in effect will be dynamic and expressive and pitch and tempo notations, etc. In that case it may allow me practically infinite varieties of ad hoc meaning fluxions or fluctuations.

I guess that's neither here nor there but this series of experiments have allowed me to make considerable progress on both my poetic and gypping encoding systems and has given me a number of ideas on how to employ both in both the real world and in gaming situations. As well as some ideas of how to produce Simulation scenarios and exercises using these same principles.

Well, I didn't mean to yak about that so much.
It's time for me to hit the hay and we can discuss this and other matters later.

Next time I'm also gonna be returning to the idea of Byzantine and Warrior monks.
It may be a few days though. I got church tomorrow and need to rest, and I got a Senior Members Officer's meeting at my squadron on Monday. But I'll hit it as soon as I can.

Night all.


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## Galloglaich

Jack, 

Way over my head but sounds interesting.

Don't rush or skip real life for a forum thread, we'll be around when things settle down for you.

G.


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## Galloglaich

Question from another forum:



			
				valadil said:
			
		

> What exactly do you get out of looking at Talhoffer plates? I can get a sense of what weapons were used but the stances all look awkward to me. I realize that they're designed to remind you of a combat form you once learned, as opposed to teaching you the form from scratch. I just haven't been able to glean any useful information off of them. It would be amazing if someone could post a link to one or two and guide me through the information I should be seeing.




Don't feel bad, Talhoffer is one of the most notoriously tricky to interpret if you don't already know the Lichtenauer system at least somewhat. Talhoffer has some of the most widely accessable and most clearly rendered drawings of the earlier masters, and he was very prolific writing several books, one of which was releasd in an inexpensive print edition very early on in the 'HEMA revival'. A lot of re-enactor groups you meet with a tentative interest in HEMA say they are 'studying Talhoffer', which usually means they look at the plates with bewilderment as you have. Talhoffer is intentionally cryptic, he doesn't explain much. To understand him, study an overview of HEMA or directly read Ringeck, Dobringer, Leukunker, and also later masters such as Joachim Meyer and Paulus Hector Mair. They are the key to the system. Ringeck spells the whole thing out in (written) detail, 16th Century guys like Joachim Meyer go into much more detail combined with technically precise wood-cuts and drawings.

That said there are many Talhoffer interpretations online, for example these messer plays from MEMAG are very clearly spelled out in this vid. Their interpretation isn't perfect but I've done these disarms in sparring they work very well.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWISsk0cy74[/ame]



> The morte strike seems awkward to me. I've gathered that the blade of a sword isn't that sharp (especially the ricasso) and against an armored foe you need something with concussion force.



That is I think something of a Ren-Faire myth. Very generally speaking, swords were sharp, sharper than you think. It's just counterintuive but true that *you can grab a sharp sword without hurting yourself if you know what you are doing.*

Here is a good video demonstrating this quite dramatically with a sharp sword:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E4aSlLyBTo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E4aSlLyBTo[/ame]



> What I don't get is how you would switch to this kind of grip. Was it just for one strike, or did you continue holding the sword that way after switching?



It's again, kind of counter-intuitive but it can definitely be done from the bind (which I've done many times in sparring), but also at onset.  Half-swording in general and Mortschlag in particular are techniques seen much more frequently in Harnichfechten (fighting in full plate armor) but they do also show up in Blossfechten(fighting unarmored or in light armor)  

Good example of transitioning to halfsword from the bind
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6Pnw-9A8qQ&feature=fvw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6Pnw-9A8qQ&feature=fvw[/ame]

Some videos of Talhoffer mortschlag plays:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFTKfw1dum0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFTKfw1dum0[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGA-Q0hlZxw&NR=1"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGA-Q0hlZxw&NR=1[/ame]

There is also a bunch of good halfswording stuff in *Reclaiming the Blade* if you haven't seen that, the Wallers do a great segment on Mortschlag in particular where you can get a good idea what the transition would look like in a real fight (or a movie which you shoul be seeing more of in the next few years, since several HEMA people I know are now training Hollywood stuntmen and fight coordinators.).

G.


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## EroGaki

A bit off topic, but this thread, I feel, is the best place to ask on the boards. I am trying to beef up my knowledge on a few subjects: medieval warfare, medieval weapons, and information on the Achaemenid Empire (culture, government, etc). I've tried looking for websites on the subjects, but many of them are contradictory and generally unhelpful. The good folks who frequent this thread seem to be the knowledgeable sort, and I was wondering if anyone knows of any decent books or websites on the subjects.*
*


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## Galloglaich

I recommend, generally speaking, the Osprey Military books as very good research aids for gamers, and also cheap (around $12-$15 new) and focused on specific areas so you can get detail you need without swamping yourself with the entire broad reach of history.  They are not free of mistakes and some Academics look down on them, but I found them generally pretty accurate, far more so than most RPG resources, and they are always well illustrated with often leading-edge detail on the weapons and armor etc., as well as a good overview or synopsis of a given battle or time period (the Vikings, the 1st Crusade, the North Sea pirates, the Templars, etc. etc.)

Which one you will like the best really depends on the specific period you are focused on There is a post up-thread somewhere where I listed several I liked, as well as some other good Academic books on Medieval warfare (Delbruck et-al)

Online, for the Persians, you probably can't do better than the RomanArmyTalk.com website.

• View forum - Allies & Enemies of Rome

That place is full of serious fanatics who really know their stuff, I'm always finding photos of rare weapons or armor that I never see anywhere else.  For anything dealing with the Dark Ages back to the early Classical period that is probably your ideal option.

I found this other mega-thread here on an RPG forum called 'Giants in the Playground', which I have participated in.  There is a lot of good information in it about Medieval warfare etc.

Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI - Giant in the Playground Forums

As for books on medieval weapons... well you know I'm biased on that.  But for swords you can't go wrong with Ewart Oakeshott.  He has several books ranging from small pamphlet like overviews of the arms of a knight "The Knight and his Sword", to painstakingly detailed overviews of surviving antique swords "Records of the Medieval Sword"

I also really like Sir Richard Burtons "Book of the Sword" which is a fascinating overview of very early weapons.

Any question you have about Medieval weapons, and photographs of surviving antiques of every Medieval weapon you can think of, as well as good reviews of good replicas, can be found at Myarmoury

myArmoury.com: Home Page

Finally the HEMA forums are a very good resource for anything to do with Medieval combat.  I like Schola Gladiatoria out of the UK, you'll find a lot of experts there from all over Europe.

SCHOLA SWORDSMANSHIP FORUM • Index page


Hope that helps, and feel free to ask any specific questions you may have here.

G.


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## Jack7

EG, if it's Western Medieval History, Warfare, etc. then it's probably Gall who you'll want to ask. He seems to know a lot in general regarding the West (and even some on Eastern Europe) and is awfully good at research.

But others visit this thread on occasion and they often make really good comments as well.

Now I know some technical issues involving the history of warfare and of Medieval life in general. In the West I mean. And about the development of the Church, Christianity, and religion.

But my real specialty in this regard is the Byzantine Empire (the Eastern Romans), their manner of warfare, their interactions in their sphere of control, their government, culture, Orthodoxy, etc. I also know a good deal about the Eastern Roman encounters with the Persians (though typically much later than you're speaking about), and later with those Muslim regimes which conquered the Zoroastrians and the Persians. So if you have any questions in that regard I think I could probably help.

My suggestion, generally speaking, is not to rely very heavily upon just internet sources. They are generally speaking (not in all cases, but generally speaking) not nearly as good as real historical, archaeological, and anthropological sources or as good as real history books. And if you're gonna look up real historical sources that are of value then I suggest that there are various internet libraries (including good international ones), as well as your own local library system (not really sure where you live, looked you up but it didn't say) that you could try (especially their research departments), and if you're in the US then try the Library of Congress. And of course university libraries. 

You might find information on the ancient Persian dynasties somewhat limited (I used to encounter the same basic situation while researching the Byzantines, though this has changed for the better in the past few years) or you may have to really dig, but I'm sure you'll be able to turn over at least some really good sources. But as someone who is an amateur historian and archeologist all I can really say is that you can expect contradictory information form time to time, and form research era to research era. Due to new discoveries, theories, etc.

Anywho, speaking once again in a general sense it is my impression that this is the single best thread on this site for research and I suggest wading back through this thread for various tid-bits of very useful information regarding warfare, Medieval life, government, religion, etc.

I'll be happy to answer any specific questions about the things I said I tend to know about if you have any.

As for me I know I've promised responses on the Warrior Monks of the Byzantines, and I'm still writing that up, because I need to provide some background material for it to make sense or be of much use. Plus I've had to attend a lot of funerals and wakes lately, people from my church, my uncle, people from my squadron, etc. So I'm gonna get to it as soon as possible.


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## Galloglaich

I agree with all of that... we are lucky to have Jack7 around here because his expertise in the Byzantines is so valuable to understanding such a wide swath of European History.  A continuous literate culture which lasted from Roman Imperial times through the Dark Ages and almost into the Renaissance... it's quite a resource.  These people wrote about everything that was going on around them, from the Visigoths and the Huns to the Vikings to the Crusaders, the Arabs and birth of Islam, the formation of the Venetian Republic (from a tiny Byzantine client-state) and the rise and fall of the Sassanids and the Khazars...  If you want to know anything about any of these folks, look to the Byzantine sources.

Which is another good point Jack raised.  The various interpreted resources are great, but you really want to get a feel for a given period, read the Primary sources.  Herodotus for the Persian wars, Thucydides for the Peleponnesian Wars, Xenophon for the post- Hellenistic period, Julius Caesar for the late Roman Republic, Tacitus for the Imperial dealings with Germania and Britannia... the Icelandic sagas for the Vikings, Ana Comnena (Byzantine Princesss) for the 1st Crusade.   These are just a few I've read, surprisingly accessible and modern in their flow, easy reads.... but with that certain quality of mystery and archaic sense of wonder...  They really put you in these periods and make you feel them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Comnena

The Byzantines actually wrote an Encyclopedia of the Classical world in the 11th Century, believe it or not:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suda

I suspect there are many people on this forum who are very well informed on Medieval History etc., it's just been rare to link that to gaming.  So far Jack and I and a few others have kept this particular thread going, I suspect more and more people will chime in because the interest in Historically- and Mythologically- grounded RPG's is growing among a certain segment of gamers.

G.


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## EroGaki

Thanks for links and tips, guys. I appreciate it. 

My questions were not actually linked to gaming; I've been set on writing a novel, and am deep in the research portion. I sort of skidded to a halt when I realized how difficult it is to find credible information about certain topics. It has been frustrating.


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## Galloglaich

EroGaki said:


> Thanks for links and tips, guys. I appreciate it.
> 
> My questions were not actually linked to gaming; I've been set on writing a novel, and am deep in the research portion. I sort of skidded to a halt when I realized how difficult it is to find credible information about certain topics. It has been frustrating.




Ah... I know the feeling.  The good side of this is, if my experience is any guide, starting to do that research will open up a whole new and fascinating world to you.  The bad side is you have to explore some of that world to write your novel probably 

What period / region are you focused on?  We can probably recommend some more specific resources.

G.


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## EroGaki

Galloglaich said:


> Ah... I know the feeling.  The good side of this is, if my experience is any guide, starting to do that research will open up a whole new and fascinating world to you.  The bad side is you have to explore some of that world to write your novel probably
> 
> What period / region are you focused on?  We can probably recommend some more specific resources.
> 
> G.




I'm focusing on the Persian Empire (550–330 BCE) as a time frame and setting. I plan on having a heavy Persian influence in the world of the story (dress, military, customs, language, etc).

Besides that, I realized that I know every little about ancient arms and armor, and how they were really used. For instance, I found out recently that warhammers were typically smaller than depicted in D&D, and used primarily on horseback (unless the source was wrong...).

In addition, I have a series lack of knowledge on ancient military and how they were used. There will be plenty of armies clashing.

So you see how in the dark I am at this point?


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## Galloglaich

Just wanted to post this excellent HEMA demonstration video from a group in Finland. 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8dky4r3nOA"]http://www.youtube.com/v/b8dky4r3nOA[/ame]

Finns are kind of scary.







EDIT: fixed the link, for some reason having a hard time editing on this forum lately...


G.


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## Galloglaich

EroGaki said:


> I'm focusing on the Persian Empire (550–330 BCE) as a time frame and setting. I plan on having a heavy Persian influence in the world of the story (dress, military, customs, language, etc).




I'd highly recommend getting yourself a copy of Xenophon's Anabasis / The Ten Thousand

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Persian-Expedition-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140440070/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260489050&sr=8-1]Amazon.com: The Persian Expedition (Penguin Classics) (9780140440072): Xenophon, Rex Warner, George Cawkwell: Books[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Anabasis-March-Up-Country-Xenophon/dp/1934255033/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260489080&sr=1-2]Amazon.com: Anabasis: The March Up Country (9781934255032): Xenophon, H. G. Dakyns: Books[/ame]

And pick up one or two of these Osprey books

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Persian-Army-560-330-BC-Elite/dp/1855322501/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260489131&sr=1-1]Amazon.com: The Persian Army 560-330 BC (Elite) (9781855322509): Nicholas Sekunda, Simon Chew: Books[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Greek-Persian-Wars-500-323-Men-at-Arms/dp/0850452716/ref=pd_sim_b_1]Amazon.com: The Greek and Persian Wars 500-323 BC (Men-at-Arms) (9780850452716): Jack Cassin-Scott: Books[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Scythians-700-300-B-C-Men-Arms/dp/0850454786/ref=pd_sim_b_4]Amazon.com: Scythians 700-300 B.C. (Men at Arms Series, 137) (9780850454789): E.V. Cernenko, Angus McBride: Books[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Sarmatians-600-BC-AD-450-Men-at-Arms/dp/184176485X/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b]Amazon.com: The Sarmatians 600 BC-AD 450 (Men-at-Arms) (9781841764856): Richard Brzezinski, Gerry Embleton: Books[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Romes-Enemies-Parthians-Sassanid-Men-at-Arms/dp/0850456886/ref=pd_sim_b_5]Amazon.com: Rome's Enemies (3): Parthians and Sassanid Persians (Men-at-Arms) (9780850456882): Peter Wilcox, Angus McBride: Books[/ame]



> Besides that, I realized that I know every little about ancient arms and armor, and how they were really used. For instance, I found out recently that warhammers were typically smaller than depicted in D&D, and used primarily on horseback (unless the source was wrong...).




No, it's right.  Nobody fought with sledge hammers as far as I've ever been able to determine, though there were a few wooden tent-stake mallets running around in some famous battles.  

No dinner plate sized axes either.



> In addition, I have a series lack of knowledge on ancient military and how they were used. There will be plenty of armies clashing.
> 
> So you see how in the dark I am at this point?




Yes but I wouldn't despair, we can get you up to speed pretty quick.  Who are the Persians going to be fighting?  Each other? 

G.


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## Galloglaich

EroGaki said:


> I'm focusing on the Persian Empire (550–330 BCE) as a time frame and setting. I plan on having a heavy Persian influence in the world of the story (dress, military, customs, language, etc).
> 
> Besides that, I realized that I know every little about ancient arms and armor, and how they were really used. For instance, I found out recently that warhammers were typically smaller than depicted in D&D, and used primarily on horseback (unless the source was wrong...).
> 
> In addition, I have a series lack of knowledge on ancient military and how they were used. There will be plenty of armies clashing.
> 
> So you see how in the dark I am at this point?




EroGaki,

If I was going to recommend one book to you to give you a very good, quick but accurate overview of warfare in the Classical world it would be this one, which I personally found immensely helpful:

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Warfare-Classical-World-Encyclopedia-Civilisations/dp/0806127945/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260489750&sr=1-5]Amazon.com: Warfare in the Classical World: An Illustrated Encyclopedia of Weapons, Warriors and Warfare in the Ancient Civilisations of Greece and Rome (9780806127941): John Gibson Warry: Books[/ame]

G.


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## EroGaki

Wow, thanks for the help. This will be a great start to the research. And christmas is coming up; now I have a few more things to add to the list.


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## Jack7

Gall, by this evening I should have a write up about the Byzantine Warrior Monk, and some related matters, ready to go. Over time it might get kinda involved. I didn't know if you wanted me to post it here or on my blog. I mean it's your thread and I don't wanna drive anything off-subject or put up a bunch of material you don't want cluttering up your thread.

So, just let me know how you wanna play it.

Jack.


I







> f I was going to recommend one book to you to give you a very good, quick but accurate overview of warfare in the Classical world it would be this one, which I personally found immensely helpful:
> 
> Amazon.com: Warfare in the Classical World: An...




That was a good book Gall suggested.

When it comes to weapons and related matters EG, just remember, that generally speaking, it's nothing like fantasy gaming or films. When it comes to weapons, armor, equipment, shields, etc. remember that most soldiers had to hump that stuff around everywhere they went. Most combatants didn't ride horses which meant all of their equipment had to marched around, carried on their own bodies, many times including their own food and water (the biscuits carried around their necks by Roman soldiers for instance). Every ounce becomes real labor over time, if you need to be ready to form up and fight whenever necessary, when you're hard marching twenty miles a day or more every day in the field (sometimes regardless of weather), and you may be expected to build fortifications or lay defense lines, or put up tents and make a secure camp after that. (Plus you have to scout the terrain, reconnoiter, set watches, establish perimeters, locate water, maybe forage, gather and set supplies, place skirmishing lines, etc.)

Men can't afford to carry these ridiculous fantasy type weapons, you have to be practical in your methods and equipment. Weapons have to be fast and effective and actually lethal according to the style of warfare common at the time, not pretty and fancy and ridiculous in design and hard to use. (That's why the Spanish Gladius was such a truly effective weapon for so long, it was just such an effective and efficient killing device. Far more effective than far larger and heavier weapons.)

In my opinion if your novel intends to be realistic (and that may or may not be your intent) then just remember this simple rule, make things efficient, make them effective, and make them practical. Remember people have to march in whatever they use as defense and armoring, they have to march mostly by foot at least some of the time, everything carried is real weight hauled by someone or some beast for potentially long periods of time, weapons have to be efficient killing tools, equipment has to serve truly useful purposes, food and water is no easy commodity to obtain, store, and transport, and logistical problems kill many armies and empires over time.

May I also suggest books like this: 

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Medieval-Siege-Weapons-Illustrated/dp/1592287107/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260635374&sr=1-12]Amazon.com: Ancient and Medieval Siege Weapons: A Fully Illustrated Guide to Siege Weapons and Tactics (9781592287109): Konstantin Nossov: Books[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Weapon-Visual-History-Arms-Armor/dp/0756622107/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260635374&sr=1-1]Amazon.com: Weapon: A Visual History of Arms and Armor (9780756622107): DK Publishing: Books[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/New-Weapons-World-Encyclopedia-International/dp/0312368321/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260635374&sr=1-3]Amazon.com: The New Weapons of the World Encyclopedia: An International Encyclopedia from 5000 B.C. to the 21st Century (9780312368326): Diagram Group: Books[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Warrior-Visual-History-Fighting-Man/dp/075663203X/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260635374&sr=1-8]Amazon.com: Warrior: A Visual History of the Fighting Man (9780756632038): R. G. Grant: Books[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Weapons-International-Encyclopedia-D-Updated/dp/0312039506/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260635374&sr=1-6]Amazon.com: Weapons: An International Encyclopedia From 5000 B.C. to 2000 A.D., Updated Edition (9780312039509): Diagram Group: Books[/ame]

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Arms-Armor-DK-Eyewitness-Books/dp/0756606543/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260635374&sr=1-7]Amazon.com: Arms & Armor (DK Eyewitness Books) (0690472006541): Michele Byam: Books[/ame]


Just remember though, people have to design, construct, and carry around stuff like this. By nature and purpose these things have to be practical, efficient, and effective. It ain't like the movies. 

You might get a feel for this by loading up a 60 to 70 pound pack and going for about a five to ten mile hike through the woods, or whatever terrain is common to your area, just make it tough terrain. Nothing gives you a feel for reality like actually doing a thing. then imagine doing that or more every day for weeks and having to build defines, get food and water and wood for fires, etc. 

It shows why things were the way they were. Which were very gritty and practical.


----------



## Galloglaich

This is an interesting excerpt, an anecdote of Medieval Warfare highlighting the effectiveness of mail armor:

[FONT=&quot]“By this time the vanguard of the Frankish horsemen had reached me, so I retired before them, turning back my lance in their direction and my eyes toward them lest some one of their horse should prove to quick for me and pierce me with his lance.  In front of me were some of our companions, and we were surrounded by gardens with walls as high as a sitting man.  My mare hit wit it’s breast one of our companions, so I turned it’s head to the left and applied the spurs to it’s sides, whereupon it leaped over the wall.  I so regulated my position until I stood on a level with the Franks.  The wall only separated us.  One of their horsemen hastened to me, displaying his colors in a green and yellow silk tunic, under which I thought was no coat of mail.  I therefore let him alone until he passed me.  Then I applied my spurs to my mare, which leapt over the wall, and I smote him with the lance.  He bent sideways so much that his head reached the stirrup, his shield and lance fell off his hand, and his helmet off his head.  By that time we had reached our infantry.  He then resumed his position, erect in the saddle.  *Having had linked mail under his tunic, my lance did not wound him*.  His companions caught up to him, all returned together, and the footman recovered his shield, lance, and helmet.” [/FONT]
-An Arab-Syrian Gentleman and Warrior in the period of the Crusades. *Usamah Ibn-Minqidh, *12th Century AD

I'm reading this book right now, it has a bunch of cool anecdotes like that, I'm going to post a few more of those here over the next few days.


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## Matthew_

Yeah, that is a good book; the whole _Crusade Texts in Translation_ series is a great resource, and there are some very interesting, and sometimes unexpected, nuggets to be found.


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## Galloglaich

Matthew_ said:


> Yeah, that is a good book; the whole _Crusade Texts in Translation_ series is a great resource, and there are some very interesting, and sometimes unexpected, nuggets to be found.




Yes this book is amazing, it reads like a series of "war stories" you would hear in a bar, except I know Usamah was a pious Muslim so I guess it would be more realistic to say, at the souk sitting around on pillows with tea and a hookah... anyway, lots of great, really surprising stories, very short anywhere from a couple of paragraphs to a page or two... more or less at random though he tries to string them all together to make some ideological points. Some of the more amusing ones I actually couldn't post on a family friendly site like this (lets just say, Usamuh was shocked by the behavior of the Franks in many respects, especially how liberal the Franks were with their wives and girlfriends... and they were not exactly shy about co-ed Public baths.... Medieval Europeans were a lot different than most people would think...)

I'm unfamiliar with the series you mentioned, sounds like I should look for it if the journals of the Franks are half as interesting as this one I have some good reading ahead of me. I've been reading the Princeton University Press edition.

Anyway a couple more which are appropriate to this thread:

This is a good one, a lot of people don't realize the Arabs had the equivalent of incendiary hand-grenades and artillery available during the Crusades. The Franks of Outramer probably had them as well once they got established in the region since they picked up pretty much all the other local customs.... this scene is from the siege of a small Castle:

"One of the Turks climbed, under our very eyes, and started walking towards the tower, in the face of death, until he approached the tower and hurles a bottle of naptha on those who were on top of it. The naptha flashed like a meteor falling upon those hard stones, while the men who were there threw themselves on the ground for fear of being burnt. The Turk then came back to us."

Here is another one from the same siege, testament to the effectiveness of mail armor, in this case it sounds like it was 'doubled' mail or kings mail.

"Another Turk now climbed and started walking on the same wall between the two bastions. He was carrying his sword and shield. There came out to meet him from the tower, at the door of which stood a knight, a Frank wearing double-linked mail and carrying a spear in his hand, but not eqquipped with a shield. The Turk, sword in hand, encountered him. The Frank smote him with the spear, but the Turk warded off the point of the spear with his shield and, notwithstanding the spear, advanced towards the frank. The latter took to flight and turned his back, leaning forward, like one who wanted to kneel, in order to protect hiss head. The urk dealt him a number of blows which had no effect whatsoever, and went on walking until he entered the tower."


Here is a greusome tale of a fight and the subsequent effective trauma medicine practiced by the arabs on a wounded warrior:

"There was in my service a man named Nuamayr al-'Allaruzi. He was a footman, brave and strong. With a band of men from Shayzar, he set out to al-Ruj to attack the Franks. When still in our territory, they came across a caravan of the Franks hiding in a cavern, and each one began to say to the other, "Who should go in against them?" "I," said Nuuamyr. And as he said it, he went in against them. As he entered, one of them came to recieve him, but Numayr stabbed him immediately with the dagger, overthrew him and knelt upon him to slay him. Behind the Frank stood another one with a sword in his hand and he struck Numayr. The latter had on his back a knapsack containing bread, which protected him. Having killed the man under him, Numayr now turned to the man with the sword, intent upon attacking him. The Frank immediately struck him with the sword on the side of his face and cut through his eyebrow, eyelid, cheeck, nose and upper lip, making the whole side of his face hang down his chest. Numayr went out of the cavern to his companions, who bandaged his wound and brought him back during a cold rainy night. He arrived in Shayzar in that condition. there his face was stitched and his cut was treated until he was healed and returned to his former conidtion, with the exception of his eye was lost for good."

Ouch!  Thats a bit nastier than the typical wound description in an RPG.  The cure sounds a bit more painful than a Cure Light Wounds spell too... but almost as effective apparently.

I have several more but I'm fed up with this post editor, enough for tonight.  More to come later.

G.


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## Matthew_

Galloglaich said:


> I'm unfamiliar with the series you mentioned, sounds like I should look for it if the journals of the Franks are half as interesting as this one I have some good reading ahead of me. I've been reading the Princeton University Press edition.



Basically, it is a series of translated texts for undergraduate (and postgraduate) crusade students. Several of the texts are available via Amazon; I think I found a full list whilst perusing De Re Militari one time... ah _Google_ worth its weight in gold: Crusade Texts in  Translation. Hmmn, I could have sworn Usamah Ibn-Minqidh*'s *memoirs were reprinted as part of that series, but it looks like the most recent reprint was by Columbia in 2000. Oh well, they are all good reads at any rate...


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## Galloglaich

here is an amusing and interesting anecdote about armor by Usamah Ibn Munqih:

_"Salah Al din (Saladin) stood in his place until a part of the army joined him.  He then said, "Put on your armor".  The majority of those did so while I remained standing by his side.  After a while he said again, 'How many times do I have to say "Put on your Armor?''  I said 'Oh my Lord, surely thou does not mean me?'  'Surely' said he.  I replied 'By Allah, surely I cannot put on anything more.  We are in the early part of the night, and my quilted jerkin (kuzaghand) is furnished with two coats of mail, one on top of the other.  As soon as I see the enemy I shall put it on.'  Salah al Din did not reply, and we set off. 

In the morning we found ourselves near Dumayr.  Salah-al Din (Saladin) said to me 'Shall we not dismount and eat something?  I am hungry and have been up all night.'  I replied 'I shall do what thou orderest.'  So we dismounted, and no sooner than we had set foot on the ground, when he said 'Where is thy jerkin?'  Upon my order, my attendant produced it.  Taking it out from it's leather bag, I took my knife and ripped it at the breast and disclosed the side of the two coats of mail.  The jerkin enclosed a Frankish coat of mail extending to the bottom of it, with another coat on top reaching as far as the middle.  Both were equipped with the proper linings, felt pads, rough silk, and rabbits hair.'_

The anecdote goes on to describe how Saladin awarded him a horse for having such impressive armor.

But two coats of mail!  No wonder he didn't want to wear it until he absolutely had to.  I guess this is what you might classify as a 'Heavy' kazaghand or jazerant....

G.


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## Galloglaich

Some interesting news about an Ancient Greek form of textile armor.  Turns out ten layers of linen could save your life....

http://news.discovery.com/archaeology/linotho...armor.html 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linothorax#Unive...ax_Project 
http://www.uwgb.edu/aldreteg/Linothorax.html 
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ERSx1o8wwk[/ame]


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## EroGaki

Wow, that's really fascinating, Galloglaich. It's a shame that padded/cloth armor only provides a +1 AC bonus.

I am curious about something. Judging from the Linothorax Project, this stuff was pretty effective at blocking sword cuts and arrows at point blank range. What ultimately lead up to linothorax getting ditched for metallic armor?


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## Galloglaich

EroGaki said:


> Wow, that's really fascinating, Galloglaich. It's a shame that padded/cloth armor only provides a +1 AC bonus.




Well, not in my game 



> I am curious about something. Judging from the Linothorax Project, this stuff was pretty effective at blocking sword cuts and arrows at point blank range. What ultimately lead up to linothorax getting ditched for metallic armor?




That is a good question, the truth is I don't think they know but I can shed a little light on the subject maybe. 

I don't think it ever really went away*, iron armor just re-asserted metal as the top of the armor food chain.

The truth is textile armor (padded / cloth armor in DnD) remained in use through the Medieval period. For the Hellenistic Greeks, I think their Linothorax was almost as good as their Bronze cuirass and greaves, while being much less hot, heavy, and expensive to make. But by the late Iron Age other armor had appeared which was qualitatively better.

Later types of iron armor not available to Alexander, especially mail (chainmail in DnD) were markedly superior to Linothorax, though Mail was also worn with quilted padded (usually linen or silk) armor aketon, gambeson jupon etc. Plate armor during the Renaissance could actually be made strong enough to be literally bullet-proof. But the Gambeson et-al remained in use all along as 'light' armor (not that 20 layers of linen is light), especialy for infantry.

Another valueable feature of iron armor was that it was less succeptible to wear and tear. A textile armor worn on campaign for long periods is going to gradually deteriorate.

But the textile stuck around, one of the most popular forms of iron armor was the brigandine, which was essentially like a linothorax with small iron plates embedded inside it to harden it further. Eventually iron armor went away for a while, with only the helmet remaining. Then in the 80's with new synthetic fibers (kevlar) textile armor came back, and now it's being used with steel or ceramic plates. Maybe the whole thing will go full circle again when the mech-suits begn to appear....


G. 

*Textile armor was around but the specific Linothorax type of hardened / laminated textile armor mentioned in those articles did seem to dissappear, replaced by quilted textile armor of roughly the same material. Why I don't really know....


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## Galloglaich

Cool video of some Viking Age weapons being used quite plausibly with Talhoffer (Renaissance) techniques. From a HEMA group in Austria.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI_yH-8swXQ&feature=related[/ame]

I like the transition from the long spear to the Sax particularly. Gives you an idea how brutal iron age combat really was.

G.


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## Galloglaich

*Vegvisir The Viking Sun Compass*

The Viking Sun Compass

" Hrafns Saga it says: "the weather was thick and stormy . . . The king looked about and saw no blue sky . . . then the king took the sunstone and held it up, and then he saw where [the Sun] beamed from the stone.""





Modern reconstruction of a Vegvisir, with an embedded cordierite (aka 'iolite')





Illustration of a vegvisir found in a Viking grave in France, 1906



VegvÃsir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Vegvísir* (compass) is an Icelandic magic sign intended to guide people through rough weather. Icelandic singer Björk has it tattooed on her left arm.
Vegvisir is not just a myth, however. A disk-like artefact was found in Greenland in 1947 by the archeologist C. L. Vebæk of Denmark. [1] A second artifact was found in 2000 at a viking site in Poland [2].

After being examined by Captain Sølver and by Søren Thirslund at the Nautical Museum at Kronborg Castle and by professor Curt Roslund at the University of Gøteborg, it was determined to be a 'sun compass'. The disk had different hyperbolas or gnomon curves inscribed upon it, and North is clearly marked with 16 small cuts crossing a long line, dividing the compass in 32 directions (before the magnetic compass had arrived in Europe). Counting the spikes from north and to the right we have 90° or due west, at spike number 8.

According to the analysis, the instrument works as follows: the sun´s shadow from the tip in the middle of a disk describes different hyperbolas at different times of the year. The hyperbola represents 62° and the four weeks around summer solstice, you don´t have to know the time of the day in order to find the general directions. All you have to do is rotate the disk until the shadow of the tip falls on the hyperbola, and the general directions are given with an accuracy of a few degrees. One of the ingenious things about navigating with this instrument is that if you should choose the wrong gnomon curve and get a course that is a little too much north in the morning, this will be corrected in the afternoon by a slightly south bound course-and your average direction will be correct.
Literary evidence indicates that the vegvisir may have also been used with a 'sunstone' (this was cordierite, not to be confused with the gem sunstone) which polarizes sunlight, allowing the location of the sun to be determiined even in heavy cloud cover, which was common in Northern latitutdes.
There was another type of vegvisir which wwas a flat tree-plate with four-five holes in it + a pin of wood approx. 20 cm high and a little wooden'button' which you can move between the holes + a thin rope and a 'sunstone', a crystaal which looks like mica and is thin. Held towards the sun-position it will show light even in cloudy weather or fog. You put the bigger pin in one of the end holes. On top of the pin a thin rope was fastened, and on the rope's other end was a 'tree-button' with which to messure the angle between the horizon and the reflexion point = where the sun is.
*Minerals*

Two minerals are possibly associated with the vegvisir. The crystal cordierite can be found as pebbles in the coast of Norway. It has birefringent and dichroic properties, changing color and brightness when rotated in front of polarized light. With an appropiately shaped crystal it is easy to tell the direction of skylight polarization: its color will change (e.g. from blue to light yellow) when pointing towards the sun. The Vikings also coloinzed Iceland, which was the original source of Iceland Spar (optical calcite), which has had such an important role in the discovery and study of polarization. Used today for many high-performance polarizers.

At high latitude the sun remains for a long time close to the horizon, which produces the best skylight polarization pattern for navigation purposes. Because of perspective, a bank of clouds of uniform density is squeezed together when looking far away. Thus, it is usually much easier to find a clear patch of sky towards the zenith, while crepuscular rays (the beams of light and darkness radiating from the sun when blocked by clouds) are difficult to see close to the zenith, as the line of sight crosses them through their thinnest section. The method would have worked even when the sun was several degrees below the horizon (but still illuminating the atmosphere). Note that at twilight, when the sun is below the horizon by about two degrees, its location is very difficult to ascertain. Although a bright twilight arch can be seen, it occupies a large part of the horizon and is of uniform intensity. A similar effect may conceivable happen when the sun is above the horizon and a thick layer of clouds covers it. Light fog and overcast of thin clouds don't eliminate skylight polarization.

The technique has been proven to be effective. A similar instrument was created in the 1950's for use by the US Navy and US Airforce, and several Scandinavian airlines used the Sun Compas for polar flights during much of the second half of the 20th Century.


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## Undermountain

Awesome!


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## Galloglaich

Check out this excellent longsword fencing, intermingled with some silly dancing.  If you want to know what sword fighting looked like in the 14th Century, think this is pretty close to the real thing.

YouTube - Lichtenawer`s Kunst des Fechtens

G.


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## Galloglaich

Did you know Cool Book rhymes with Adventure Hook? 

The first fechtbook in the Lichtenauer Tradition, MS 3227a, is known for it's verses from Lichteneauer, but it also includes sections on Magic spells, potions, fireworks, alchemy, asrology, and dental heigeine, plus knife fighting, staff fighting, messer fighting, and sword fighting. Talk about a cool book! 

I think this provides an interesting insight into Medieval life in Central Europe, a much more interesting life than you might otherwise think.

From the wiki:

NÃ¼rnberger Handschrift GNM 3227a - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The codex *Nürnberger Handschrift GNM 3227a* (169 folia) is a manuscript dating from around 1389, preserved today in the _Germanisches Nationalmuseum_ in Nuermburg(Nürnberg). It is frequently attributed to Hanko Döbringer.
It contains recipes for a wide range of purposes as well as treatises on martial arts Most notably, it is the earliest manuscript dealing with the art of fencing with the long sword of Johannes Lichtenauer which remained predominant in the German School of Swordsmanship for two centuries to come. _See also_ Historical European Martial Arts.
*Contents*


*1r - 5v* treatise on fireworks (_Marcus Graecus: Liber Ignium_)
*5v* magic formulas in Latin and German
*6r* recipes forpowders used for painting
*6v - 10v* Latin recipes (paint, alchemy, medecine)
*11r - 12r* German instructions for the strengthening of iron (_Von dem herten. Nu spricht meister Alkaym..._)
*12v - 13r* alchemical recipes in Latin
*13v - 17v* treatise on sword fencing, on foot, on horseback, unarmoured or armoured (_kunst des fechtens mit deme swerte czu fusse vnd czu rosse blos vnd yn harnuesche_)
*18r - 40r* teachings of Johannes Liechtenauer on unarmoured foot combat. (_Liechtenauers blozfechten czu fusse_)
*43r - 45v* teachings of other masters, in verse (Hanko Döbringer, Andres Juden, Jost von der Neißen, Nidas Preußen).
*47r - 48v* glosses on technical terms of the preceding section
*52v* on sportive (non-serious) fencing (_Schulfechten_)
*53r - 60v* teachings of Liechtenauer on combat on horseback and armoured combat with spear and sword.
*62r* fragment on wrestling
*64r - 65r* recapitulation of the teachings of Liechtenauer
*66v - 73v* astrological texts, magical and medicinal recipes, name magic
*74r* fragment on combat with sword and shield
*74v - 77v* recipes for paint, tumors, metal and ivory treatment
*78r* fragment on combat with the long-staff
*79r - 81v* miscellaneous Latin recipes, treatment of gems, preparation of a miraculous potion
*82* on combat with the long knife (_Messer_)
*83v* Latin calendar, 1390-1495 (the manuscript is dated to 1389 on the basis of this calendar)
*84r - 85r* on combat with daggers
*85* magical recipes
*86r - 89r* Liechtenauer on wrestling, interspersed with additional recipes
*90v - 165v* recipes for dental hygeine, various alchemical recipes, food recipes, nonsense recipes, in various hands
*166r - 169v* index to the recipes in the manuscript, partly illegible


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## Galloglaich

Did a little more digging into historical sources for Germanic / Norse magic, here are a few "real" spells from the 10th - 11th Century:

Here are two Germanic / Norse magic spells from the 9th Century AD, one to release prisoners and another to cure a horse:

Merseburg Incantations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> Once the Idisi set forth,
> to this place and that.
> Some fastened fetters,
> Some hindered the horde,
> Some loosed the bonds
> from the brave:
> Leap forth from the fetters,
> escape from the foes






> Phol and Odin
> rode into the woods,
> There Balder's foal
> sprained its foot.
> It was charmed by Sinthgunt,
> (so did) her sister Sunna.
> It was charmed by Frija,
> (so did) her sister Volla.
> It was charmed by Odin,
> as he well knew how:
> Bone-sprain,
> like blood-sprain,
> Like limb-sprain:
> Bone to bone,
> blood to blood,
> Limb to limb,
> As though they were glued




Here is another one for curing poison, also from around the 10th Century:



> A snake came crawling, it bit a man.
> Then Woden took nine glory-twigs,
> Smote the serpent so that it flew into nine parts.
> There apple brought this pass against poison,
> That she nevermore would enter her house.[1



Nine Herbs Charm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is a list of Magical symbols used in Icelandic magic, compiled in the 16th Century but of a much more ancient lineage:

Icelandic magical staves - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Several of these would make good cantrips or spells, if you read the descriptions.

And here is a much more sinister one called the Hand of Glory, originally described by Albertus Magnus in the 13th century

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_of_Glory

There is a creepy story about it which you often see many different versions of:

http://www.shanmonster.com/witch/wards_tools/hand.html

According to one account, form the sixteenth-century demonologist Martin del Rio, a thief once lit the Hand of Glory outside a family's home, but he was observed by a servant girl. While he was busy ransacking the house, she was desperately trying to put out the candle. First she tried blowing it out, to no avail. Then she doused it with water, which didn't work; then she tried beer, which also didn't work. Milk, for unknown reasons, did. The moment the candle was extinguished, the family awoke and caught the thief red-handed; the maid was, of course, rewarded for her bravery and quick thinking.​G.


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## Galloglaich

Great post on the origins of Valentines day, by an academic friend:

http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14570http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14570&p=248483#p248483


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## Galloglaich

*Samurai vs. Pirates*

One of the topics which has recieved nearly endless speculation on the internet, on shows such as 'Deadliest Warrior', and all across Geekdom, are the eternal quesions of whaat would happen if a warrior of this part of the world met one of that part. 

Samurai and Pirates both feature high on this list... wouldn't it be interesting if they had ever crossed paths? How many debates have there been as to who would win? How about Samurai vs. Conqustadors, or Samurai vs. French Musketeers?

Well of course in fact, it is quite interesting to read about... in history books. Because of course, it did indeed happen many times. During the early Euriopean exploration of the Pacific, European soldiers, sailors, merchants, missionaries, explorers and indeed pirates of many European nationalities crossed paths with Japanese numerous times, often coming to blows. Throughout the 16th Century due to their harsh acts in the past, the Japanese were banned from China, but they had a huge demand for Chinese silk. The trade town of Nagasaki in Japan was built up by Portuguese silk traders. The Dutch meanwhile, used Ronin samurai as hired muscle by the tens of thousands primarily in Indonesia, as did Chinese Waco pirates operating especially out of the Philippines, which were also falling under the control of the Spanish. Duels and even pitched land and naval battles in the Pacific took place numerous times between Japanese Samurai and Portuguese, Spanish, and Dutch sailors and soldiers, and even occasionally with the English and French. 

One of the earliest violent encounters betweenn the British and the Japanese occured in 1603 AD, when a pirate vessel comprised of Ronin Samurai encountered a British vessel commanded by a rogue British Captain named Sir Edward Michelborne who, due to being snubbed by the recently formed British East India company, had himself become a pirate who had been busy ravaging the "spice islands" around Malaysia and Borneo.

here is the first part of their encounter, transcribed from the book [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Nathaniels-Nutmeg-Incredible-Adventures-Changed/dp/B000LMPLLA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1266507129&sr=8-1]Nathaniels Nutmeg[/ame], by Giles Milton:



> As the ship drifted in the calm waters off the Malay Peninsula, a cry was suddenly raised from the look-out. A mysterious ship was approaching, a huge junk, whose decks were lined with more than eighty men. They were strange-looking fellows: short, squat, and with an almost total lack of expression on their faces. Sir Edward despatched a heavily armed boat to discover if these people were friend or foe and, after a breif exchange in which theEnglish learned that the vessel was 'a junke of the Japons', they were invited on board and shown around. When they enquired of the Japanese as to their line of business the men made no bones about their trade.
> 
> The Junk, like the _Tiger_, was a pirate ship and the men were proud of her devastating progresss through the waters of South-East Asia. She had pillaged the coasts of China and Cambodia, plundered half a dozen ships off Borneo, and was now heading back to Japan laden with spoils.
> When the English party were safely back on the _Tiger_, Sir-Edward weighed up his options. Trusting to his previous good fortune, he decided to ransack the junk and, to this end, seent a second band of Englishmen on board to stake her out.
> 
> Although it was clear to the Japanese that Michelbourne's buccaneering sailors were assessing the strengths and weaknesses of the vessel, they welcomed the English with open arms and allowed them free access to the ship's hold. They even pointed to the choicest items on board, astonishing the crew of the tiger who had never met with such an odd race of men. 'They were most of them too gallant a habit for sailors,' wrote one, 'and such an equalitie of bheavior among them that they all seemed fellows.' When they asked to visit the English vessel, all agreed that it would be impolite to refuse.




Next: what happend when the Samurai boarded the _Tiger.._.

G.


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## Galloglaich

So here is the rest of the story:



> Here Michelborne's inexeperience told for the first time.  He was unaware that the Japanese had the reputation in the Indes for being a 'people so desperate and daring that they are feared in all places' and was ignorrant of the fact that all eastern ports demanded that any Japanese sailor coming ashore must first be disarmed.



I have to interject here, those familiar with Japanese fencing systems or the martial art Iaido, or who are familiar with the Codex system, know that one of the most effective and popular attacks in Japanese fencing is the Nukutsuke, cutting from a sheathed sword...  anyway, Giles Milton continues the story:



> Davis [the navigator] too was 'beguiled by their humble semblance'.  Not only was he of the opinion that disarming them was unnnecessary, he offered them the run of the ship and let them freely fraternise with the crew.  As more and more Japanese clambered aboard, beakers were raised and the two crews joked and chatted among themselves.



Milton does not specify what language they were using the communicate.



> In a flash everything changed: unbeknown to the English, the Japanese had, in the words of Michelborne, 'resolved with themselves either to gaine my shippe or to lose their lives'.  The smiles vanished, the laughter died and the Japanese suddenly transformed themselves into brutal 'rogues' who stabbed and slashed (Nukitsuke!) at their English adversaries.  The crew of the _Tiger_ had never faced such hostility (which seems odd for Milton to say since they had been operating as pirates for several months already) and scarcely had a chance to resist before the deck was swarming with Japanese weilding (sic) long swords (katanas) and hacking men to pieces.  Soon they reached the gun room where they found Davis desperately loading muskets.  'They pulled [him] into the cabbin and giving him sixe or seven mortall wounds, they thrust him out of the cabbin.'  He stumbled on deck but the sword wounds had severed one of his arteries and he bled to death.  Others too, were in their final death throes and it seemed inevitable that the Tiger would shortly be lost.
> 
> It was Michelborne who saved the day.  Thrusting pikes [probably Bills or boarding pikes which may be like half-sized pikes or something like a bill] into the hands of his best fighters he launched a last-ditch attack on the Japanese soldiers 'and killed three or four of their leaders'.  This disheartened the Japanese who slowly found themselves at a disadvantage.  Armed with knives and swords, they were unable to compete with Michelborne's pikemen (sic) and found themselves driven down the deck until they stood en masse by the entrance to the cabin.  Sensing their predicament, they let out a terrific scream and dashed headlong into the heart of the ship.
> 
> The English were at a loss as to know how to evict them.  Not one man volunteered to follow them into the cabin for to do so would be to court certain death.  It was equally hopeless to send a large group down.  The passageway was low and narrow and the men would end up wounding themselves rather than the Japanese.
> 
> Eventually a bright spark on board had a simple but devastating solution.  Two thirty-two-pound demi-culverins were loaded with 'crosse-bars, bullets, and case-shot' and fired at point-blank range into the most exposed side of the cabin.  There was a deafening crash as the shrapnel tore through the woodwork and 'violently marred therwith boords and splinters'.,  A terrible shriek followed, a cry of agony, and then there was silence.  When the smoke cleared and the dust settled, the cabin was entered and it was found that only one of the twenty-two japanese had survived.  'Their legs, armes and bodies were so torne, as it was strange to see how the shot had massacred them.'
> 
> It was now time for Michelborne to have his revenge.  Training every last cannon on the Japanese junk, he fired shot after shot into her sides until the men on board begged for mercy.  When this was refused they vowed to go down fighting and the battle raged until all resistance was quelled and the junk fell silent.  Only one Japanese attempted to surrender.  Diving  into the water he swam across to the _Tiger _and was hauled aboard.  When quizzed by Sir Edward [Michelborne] as to the motive for the attack he 'told us that htey meant to take our shippe and cut all our throates'.  Having said this, and terrified by the crowd of hostile onlookers, he told Michelborne that his one desire was 'that hee might be cut in pieces'.  Michelborne preferred a less bloody method of execution and ordered the man to be strung up at the yardarm.  This sentence was duly carried out but the rope snapped and the man dropped into the sea.  No one could be bothered to haul him in and as the coast was not far away it was presumed that he escaped with his life.



An interesting, and in a gallows humor sense, quite amusing story.  Tells us a lot and makes for an interesting scene particularly if you read between the lines a little.  There is no doubt at least some of these Japanese 'pirates' were Ronin Samurai.  The English vessel probably had both sailors and at least some professional soldiers on board.  The Japanese were probably armed with katana or tachi and tanto knives.  

The English would have been armed with bills, (or boarding pikes), axes, sabers, cutlasses, rapiers, cut-thrust swords, hangers, possibly even a longsword or two, as well as wheellock or flintlock muskets, musketoons and pistols, maybe longbows or arbalests (crossbows), and quite possibly grenades.   Just maybe even a 17th Century grenade launcher  (probably not though because these don't show up in records much until the 18th Century)

It is likely that some of the English soldiers from the original English boarding party were wearing armor.  Cuirass, half armor and three quarters harness were mentioned in many period documents, as well as (surprisingly) mail quite often.  Probably some of the Ronin as well had armor, though the Japanese boarding party may not have had any on (it would have made the English suspicious) which may have been a factor in how the battle went.

This was by no means the only such encounter nor did it always go this way.  Ronin Samurai were hired in the thousands or tens of thousands by the Dutch, who used them to help conquer Malaysia, Indonesia and the 'Spiceries', along with mercenaries from Europe (reportedly German 'landsknechts' though it is unclear what that really meant in the 17th Century). Samurai were involved in fighting between the Dutch, the English, the Portuguese, the Spanish, as well as the ferocious Moro of the Philippines, Chinese Waco pirates and various local tribes such as the headhunting Dayak.  Then later the French showed up....

The East indies in the 17th Century was an interesting place.

G.


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## Votan

Galloglaich said:


> There is no doubt at least some of these Japanese 'pirates' were Ronin Samurai.  The English vessel probably had both sailors and at least some professional soldiers on board.  The Japanese were probably armed with katana or tachi and tanto knives.  The English would have been armed with bills, (or 'pikes'), axes, sabers, cutlasses, smallswords, as well as muskets, musketoons and pistols, and possibly rapiers and backswords, and possibly even a longsword or two.




That is one thing that D&D does not seem to simualte well -- breaking a wall of pikes is not for the faint of heart without ranged weapons of some kind.  Whereas I find that the use of a group of reach weapons results in only a minor edge in actual play.


----------



## Galloglaich

Votan said:


> That is one thing that D&D does not seem to simualte well -- breaking a wall of pikes is not for the faint of heart without ranged weapons of some kind.  Whereas I find that the use of a group of reach weapons results in only a minor edge in actual play.




Not in my system 

G.


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## Galloglaich

Different types of Boarding pikes





Sailor / re-enactors drilling with the 19th Century version of boarding pikes





Bill-hooks or "Guisarme"






A grenade launcher or 'hand mortar'. There are records of a hand mortar like this one in the British colonial arsenal in _Proceedings of the council of Maryland _from 1688, and a journal of a fur trader named Alexander Henry reports the use of one used in action to fire thirty grenades against the Sioux Indians in 1808.





English soldiers of the era





Real Japanese Samurai from a 19th Century photo


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## Galloglaich

Real samurai from a photo in the 1860's, during the boshin-war.






Armor of an English pikeman, from the early 1600's





English pikemans kit from the early 17th Century 

The google books scan of the 17th Century diary of John Davis, the ill-fated navigator of the _Tiger_

The voyages and works of John Davis ... - Google Books

G.


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## Galloglaich

Another cool photo of some Samurai from 1880, Japan




G.


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## Galloglaich

Found a cool blog on monsters in medieval art:

MONSTER BRAINS: 8/3/08 - 8/10/08


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## El Mahdi

deleted


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## Galloglaich

Wow... cool man thanks for the heads up, that is really promising.


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## Galloglaich

Armor for the Gentleman Adventurer






steampunk fashion - For the gentleman adventurer

G.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2041/2470791197_a5ae6f2ea5.jpg


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## Dannyalcatraz

That rocks...but it should have tails.  Or at the very least, it should go down to mid-thigh.


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## Galloglaich

Dannyalcatraz said:


> That rocks...but it should have tails. Or at the very least, it should go down to mid-thigh.




Here is the maker modeling it :




http://media.225batonrouge.com/img/photos/2008/07/11/19_t450.JPG


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## Galloglaich

Ok it's time for some *Sword Porn*

If you could have five top quality functional sword replicas... which would you pick? Here is my list from Albion Armorers in case there are any rich benefactors out there wanting to give me a surprise birthday present:

The Albion Next Generation Swords

The *Augustus* because everyone should have a gladius for close-in work and a short fat one wil do more damage...




The *Hersir *because everyone should have a 'Viking' sword in case they need to sack Lindisfarne.




The *kingmaker* because I think it's the perfect shape for an arming sword and reminds me of the Henry V sword which is one of my favorite antiques





the *Brescia Spadona *since it's the best longsword replica anyone has made yet. The Brescia Spadona was the most accurate replica they ever made (copied milimeter by milimeter from the original in Italy) and from all the test cutting I've seen and heard about, it out-cuts every other weapon in it's class, and most outside of it's class including many dedicated cutting swords... and yet it's a fast, pointy thrust-oriented bastard sword.  Gotta love this weapon.






and the* Knecht* in case I have to ever cut somebody in half or get in a fight with an ogre.





I actually own one of these Albion Constables, it's the nicest weapon I have, it's a lethal little thing that cuts amazingly well:







Another replica maker I really like but can't afford is Patrick Barta:

http://www.templ.net/english/

He specializes in pattern welded swords. Makes beautiful, beautiful weapons which really capture the elegance of historical European weapons which almost looks like something we'd associate more with Asia. Unfortunately there is like a 4 year waiting list and they are extremely expensive. But worth it if you like swords. Meanwhile all I can do is lust after photos:





















So what are your favorites? Replicas or antiques, Asian or European or from somewhere else in the world...?

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

I was in an historical fencing tournament in Houston last weekend, I made it to the quarter finals by some unholy miracle, here are a couple of my fights:

http://freifechter.com/videos/houston/Houston%202010%20Longsword%20Tournament%20Jean%20Chandler%20vs%20Carlos.wmv

http://freifechter.com/videos/houston/Houston 2010 Longsword Tournament Louisianna Showdown.wmv

Here is the final, between Jake Norwood former deputy director of ARMA and current senior member of the HEMA Alliance (and also the designer of the popular Role Playing Game The Riddle of Steel) vs. Axel Peterson of Gotheburg Historical Fencing Society from Gotheburg Sweden. You'll notice their fencing is about 10 times better than in the matches I was in.

http://freifechter.com/videos/houston/Houston 2010 Longsword Final Axel Peterson vs Jake Norwood.wmv


Sadly for America (and the RPG community), Axel won (he won both tournaments that day) but it was a great fight.  Axel (and his buddy Anders Linnard) are both terrific fencers but we have a year to prepare for the next tournament and myabe next year USA will prevail 


G


----------



## Raven Crowking

Well, congrats on making it to the quarter finals anyway!

(This is, as I have said before, one of the most interesting threads on EN World.)


RC


----------



## abhorsen950

Bookmarked some excellent stuff here


----------



## Brainfart

Personally, I prefer the clean and simple lines of the Hersir to the 'busier' hilt outlines of Patrick Barta's custom swords. I appreciate the workmanship from a technical perspective, but those swords seem to be more of status symbols than weapons. Just look at this pommel: http://www.templ.net/pics-making/decoration/cloisonne05v.jpg I wouldn't have the heart to use that sword.

The ideal Viking sword for me would be one of those pattern welded blades married to the Hersir's hilt furniture. Understated elegance combined with stark lethality.


----------



## Galloglaich

Yeah some of those get a bit ornate, but the Migration era ones were crazy lethal works of art... for people who carried much of what they owned with them (especially if they were Migratring  ).  Barta is one of the few who can pull off the look with sufficient style that it doesn't look ridiculously baroque.  But I agree with you a plain Hersir with a pattern welded blade would be scary cool.

And I can definitely relate to where you are coming from, I like the simpler forms a lot too.  One of my all-time favorite antiques is the so called Henry V sword, so simple, so elegant, so damn _lethal_ looking.







Imagine running across that in a box when you were cleaning up... (which is how it was found

http://www.myarmoury.com/review_aa_hen.html

G.


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## Galloglaich

http://www.iwantoneofthose.com/bbq-sword/index.html


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

I'm down in Texas...we'd probably want a BBQ Claymore.


----------



## Galloglaich

Hussites vs. Catholic Crusaders from 1957 Czech film about Jan Ziska

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE-ghxHNhl0&feature=related]YouTube - PROTI VŠEM (Against All, 1957) - Battle On Vitkov, Part2[/ame]


Sort of the Eastern European version of Braveheart, it's the true story of Bohemian peasants triumphing over huge international knightly army, (six times over 15 years) partly by inventing a variety of new firearms like the hook-gun and the howitzer, and other weapons such as the flail, and making excellent use of wagon-forts called wagenburgs.

G.


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## Galloglaich

Medieval whodunnit from Scotland






Medieval News: Face of a Medieval Knight revealed

G.


----------



## Jack7

I enjoyed both those last two posts Gall. You always have interesting and useful research.


----------



## Galloglaich

Thanks man   Here is an interesting vid,  one of the first all-steel longsword tournaments which has been done to date, by a Polish HEMA group.  Takes some balls to spar with steel at full speed without any restrictions on where you can stab or cut...  helps to have a lot of good safety gear 

http://vimeo.com/9960737


----------



## Jack7

> Takes some balls to spar with steel at full speed without any restrictions on where you can stab or cut... helps to have a lot of good safety gear




I've been in a knife fight. It takes a lotta balls, but you don't think about that when it happens. You think a lotta bout it afterwards though. I don't think I'd have risked that if I'd a thought about it first.

Then again I guess I could say the same thing about a couple of times I been shot at too. Good thing people have short memories.

My wife says, "you stupid white men run straight at danger." I'm not sure that's absolutely true. But she thinks it is.

Looking forwards to watching the video.


----------



## Galloglaich

Jack7 said:


> I've been in a knife fight. It takes a lotta balls, but you don't think about that when it happens. You think a lotta bout it afterwards though. I don't think I'd have risked that if I'd a thought about it first.
> 
> Then again I guess I could say the same thing about a couple of times I been shot at too. Good thing people have short memories.
> 
> My wife says, "you stupid white men run straight at danger." I'm not sure that's absolutely true. But she thinks it is.
> 
> Looking forwards to watching the video.




I was reading an interesting article about hormones and what happens to animals after they win fights... in a nutshell, Rams (male sheep) win some fights with other rivals, they get a testosterone surge, which makes them grow bigger, increases their strength and confidence... and aggression.  A little bit of this is a good thing.  When they win too many fights though, they can become reckless.  

Apparently a lot of these big horn sheep they find in this one part of Canada which have fallen off of cliffs, turned out to be dominant males.  Similarly with some species of fish and birds; they go through this testosterone surge which makes them superdominant over their rivals, but then they expose themselves to predators.  I've seen that myself with cichlids.

All that stuff about fight and flight, morale, honor etc. are really interesting subjects to me which I think could be explored in fun ways in an RpG one day.

Or maybe not 

G.


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## Galloglaich

Speaking of gaining honor... Storming a castle in 14th Century France

Muhlberger's World History: Some things I learned from the Chronicle of the Good Duke, 2: That old gang of mine


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## Jack7

> Apparently a lot of these big horn sheep they find in this one part of Canada which have fallen off of cliffs, turned out to be dominant males. Similarly with some species of fish and birds; they go through this testosterone surge which makes them superdominant over their rivals, but then they expose themselves to predators. I've seen that myself with cichlids.




Yeah, I've known a few fellas that way. For some of em it didn't end up all that well. I always try and remind myself, "No matter what you've come through or what you've beaten, there's still a grave with your name on it out there." 

That usually does the trick. Trouble is, I sometimes end up reminding myself of that after the fact.


This looks interesting too. Gonna give that a gander.

Muhlberger's World History: Some things I learned from the Chronicle of the Good Duke, 2: That old gang of mine


----------



## Galloglaich

This is a pretty good depiction of a realistic Medieval battle as you are likely to see.

In this clip (at about the half-way point) you can see the deployment of the Bohemian Hussite wagonberg at the battle of sudomer in this clip from 1950's Czech film about Jan Ziska (the guy with the eye patch and the mace in the film)

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zapSxda7HY&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube - JAN ZIZKA (1955) - Battle of Sudomer 1[/ame]

In this clip you can see the big fight, it's quite entertaining in a goofy way

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpaeyIbk8N8&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube - JAN ZIZKA (1955) - Battle of Sudomer 2[/ame]

Wiki on the actual battle:

Battle of SudomÄ›Å™ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Despite being made by the Communists in the worst period of Communist rule, this film is accurate in many technical details, from the wagons themselves, the houfince (howizers), hook guns & hand-culverins, the pavise shields, the crossbows, the 'articulated club' style flegels (flails), even the knightly armor of the Germans is in the ballpark (ok ... very broadly, some looks more 14th Century... but it''s more accurate for the period than the kit in the recent US film Robin Hood was).  The Hussite (Czech) army did also have women in their ranks as depicted.

Of course the actual fighting looks pretty corny, and needless to say I think many if not most of the Crusaders horses should be armored, and I'm not sure about the Hussites slings.  I know they threw rocks from those wagons.

And _of course _I don't think the Crusaders were quite as utterly ineffectual as the film makes out, in the real battle the Hussites lost one of their commanders and took heavy casualties, but the Czechs did win the battle historically despite being heavily outnumbered.

Here is a statue of the real Jan Ziska (that I'm embarrassed to say I didn't see myself when I was in Prague because I was too lazy to walk any more and my feet hurt)






And a contemporary drawing featuring Ziska (who was eventually made blind in both eyes) wielding a "dagger-mace" style war-hammer





Jan Å½iÅ¾ka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Galloglaich

Jack7 said:


> That usually does the trick. Trouble is, I sometimes end up reminding myself of that after the fact.




Yeah I'm like you I had to learn a lot of things the hard way. 

G.


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## Khairn

After watching those last 2 clips, all that needs to be said is "Location, location, location".

And as for the clip of the Polish HEMA group ... them boys are crazy!


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## Galloglaich

Yeah, I agree... I was in one of the first big nylon longsword tournaments in the US a few months ago and that was rough.  People up the ante in tournaments "turned to 11"... Steel is pretty safe when you are just doing careful freeplay, I've done that but flat out in a tournament, that is pretty bold.

But there seems to be a lot of energy around that area for this kind of thing lately.  I've heard some crazy stories about Polish and (especially) Russian re-enactor groups.  

G.


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## Galloglaich

Speaking of HEMA and synthetic simulators, here is a video review of the new synthetic ones by Knight Shop in the UK, done by a HEMA group out of Britsol also in the UK.  They are finally out and were tested successfully at the Dijon Tournament this month.  As you can see they are firm enough for realistic sparring but flex in the thrust suitably to be pretty safe.

My understanding is they will be available in the US from places like Kult of Athena and Therion Arms for around $65 US.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2knwdZYXotY&feature=related]YouTube - Knights Shop Rawlings Synthetic Sparring Range Review[/ame]


----------



## Galloglaich

I've often mentioned the Henryk Seinkoweicz novels in this thread and (especially) the wonderful films made based on them, well now there is also a computer game (variant of Mount and Blade):

Mount & Blade: Ogniem i Mieczem (With Fire and Sword) Trailer | Mod Realms

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUbvxqRpebM&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Mount & Blade: Ogniem i Mieczem[/ame]

At last you can play a Cossack or a Winged Hussar... at least if you can speak Polish 

Hopefully they will come out with an English language version pretty soon.

G.


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## Galloglaich

The peasant staff of Paulus Hector Mair.  This really emphasizes how Renaissance martial arts can still be practical in modern times... sticks are around all over the place sometimes in places you wouldn't expect (think of a pool cue)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ohyb9Mc-4AM&feature=digest]YouTube - The Peasant Staff of Paulus Hector Mair[/ame]


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## Galloglaich

Many people ask me, what kind of fighting is portrayed in the fencing manuals of the Middle Ages?  Were they sports, dueling, or real battlefield combat?

In the case of HEMA, the manuals still around we have are primarily designed for one or more of three purposes 

1) *judicial combat*, which has certain artificial qualities (it's a one-on- one fight, with equal weapons etc.) but in most (though not all) cases it's a real fight to the death with lethal weapons*.   If you were sentanced to face a judicial combat (a fairly rare occurance) you would be confined for 3 to 6 months, during which time you would be trained to fight.  The trainers were experts in this martial art, sometimes Fencing Masters.  In fact under certain circumstancs, some of them would rent their services, these people were called kemphe, it was considered a disreputable passtime but may have even been practiced at one time or another by some of the famous Masters.  But the judicial combats in these manuals are a real, harsh, brutal martial art.

2) *private duels* many of the 16th - 17th Century manuals for rapier are designed for private dueling. This is also a lethal combat, which may have an overlay of some kind of etiquette, but was quite brutal and pragmatic form of fighting, these manuals have a rowdy swashbuckling vibe, fighting with rapier, dagger, cloaks, candlesticks, stools etc. and using every trick in the book.   Later in the 18th Century a new more formal type of dueling arose around the use of the smallsword, and these 'Classical Fencing' manuals can be a bit more 'sportified', in fact leading to the modern olympic style sport- fencing we have today.  

3) *Sport combat* In "German" (Central European) fencing, right along side the lethal fighting, there also existed a type of sport fencing called Schulfechten, named after the fechtchules or fencing schools, this goes all the way back to at least the 13th Century though it became more and more prevalent over time.  This is not so much like the sport fencing we think of today, and has a much more working class realm than the Aristocratic salons of Classical fencing.  It was more like 19th Century English prize fighting.  (In fact a lot of people don't know that 19th Centruy English prize fighting typically included fencing matches with broadswords).  Winning a fight usually involved cutting the scalp of your opponent.  There were high stakes associated with this sport, because clubs whose members were recognized by the government as fencing Masters**, such as the famous brotherhoods like the Marxbruder and their rivals, the Federfechter, who were granted the right to certify soldiers as expert fencers who could recieve double pay (Dopplesoldner), a very lucrative franchise.

Brotherhood of St. Mark - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Federfechter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some of the later 16th Century longsword manuals arguably focus on schulefechten, Joachim Meyer for example, but the system is closely linked to the earlier 14th-15th Century judicial combat systems of the Lichtenauer tradition.

In the East, the situattion is more complex.  In China Martial Arts were suppressed in the 17th-18th Century, and then Colonialism of the 19th and early 20th century and the Cultural Revolution both wrought their havoc on all aspects of the surviving culture but especially martial arts (which was directly linked to many uprisings, for example the Boxer Rebellion).  The shaolin temple was suppressed, for example, and some of it's members fled to the Peking Opera, which incorporated some of the techniques into their act, this is the legacy that Jackie Chan has.  Most of what was left of "Tai-Chi" (Taji), which was originally a fencing system, was reduced to a form of exercize.  Today some of the old original systems are being painstakingly reconstructed, both in China and here in the US.  There is a network of people fighting with the Jian.  They have some literary evidence to work from, I think there is at least one fencing manual survives.

In Japan, martial arts were suppressed by Meiji government in the late 19th century, and then even more so by the Americans after WW II, in both cases due to the association with bellicose Samurai culture, deemed incompatible with modern society.  The old martial arts of Japan were turned into a sport, Kenjustu became Kendo, Jujitsu became Judo and etc.  Even most of the katanas were taken away by US occupation soldiers in the late 40's and 1950's.

In other places like the Philippines and Malaysia, I think the tradition is a bit more intact though there has been many disruptions there as well.

Here is a partial list of the manuals which have been discovered so far from the various European traditions:

Martial arts manual - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Eastern martial arts, while benefiting from having a contiguous living tradition, went through that sportification process often forcibly imposed by internal or external government forces.  Both sides of this fence are learning from each other lately though I think; most HEMA schools (my own small group included) are made up mostly of people with strong backgrounds in Eastern Martial arts of some kind, whereas many Eastern fencing schools are taking a cue from HEMA and updating their systems from available literary evidence from various sources which are increasingly being sought out.  Bruce Lee himself famously incorporated elements of English boxing, Graeco-Roman wrestling, and Classical fencing into his syncretic fighting system.

There are some Eastern manuals, for example this 16th Century Korean manual: 
Muyejebo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And this 18th Century one






Which RpG gamers shouild really like since it is one of the very few I know of which includes two-weapon fighting 

http://www.muye24ki.com/muye24ki/ssanggum_chongdo.jpg

And there are also some uninterrupted traditions have lived alongside sport versions of fencing for centuries, such as the Sikh Gatka and Filipino Arnis traditions, Zulu stick fighting and Nigerian wrestling (among others) in Africa, and quite a few others in South Asia and the Pacific.


*There are also a different type of judicial combat which uses some  special weapons just for that purpose, like those dueling shields.  But  for the most part this is sword vs. sword and etc. 

** To be recognized as a fencing Master you had to put out your shingle  and face all-comers in fight.  The early 15th Century Master Fiore Dei  Liberi allegedly fought 5 successful duels with rival Masters, possibly  for this reason

G.


----------



## Argyle King

Reality is full of many things which seem impossible.


For example, the guy in this video gets up and walks away after being gored in the throat by a bull.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O73vasqlEm4]YouTube - Matador Is Brutally Gored Through His Neck[/ame]


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## Dannyalcatraz

Hmm...a modern day Phineas Gage.


----------



## Son_of_Thunder

Awesome thread. Love it.


----------



## Verdande

I just wanted to let you know that this thread is easily the most useful and interesting thing I've read on Enworld, and possibly the entire internet. It's like the world's most interesting information on medieval history and sword fighting techniques all gathered in one place. I fully expect to spend the next couple of months attempting to absorb all of this brilliant information


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## Galloglaich

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Hmm...a modern day Phineas Gage.




Wow holy crap!  He must have been related to Rasputin! 

G.


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## Galloglaich

Verdande said:


> I just wanted to let you know that this thread is easily the most useful and interesting thing I've read on Enworld, and possibly the entire internet. It's like the world's most interesting information on medieval history and sword fighting techniques all gathered in one place. I fully expect to spend the next couple of months attempting to absorb all of this brilliant information




Thanks a lot... it's a labor of love.  Everybody chimes in with good stuff here this has been a fun place to have this thread going.  I used to complain for years that I wanted to see more of this kind of stuff in gaming so I eventually decided I should put my money where my mouth is.  

These days I try to throw up a lot of the interesting things I dig up when I'm doing research for my books, it's nice to have people around here get into it as much as I do.

G.


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## Dannyalcatraz

Galloglaich said:


> Wow holy crap!




Ahhhh...you don't know how good it feels to make you say that, given all the amazing stuff _you've_ posted in this thread!


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## rabizaman

Nice threads going on ... Keep it up guys. I have found similar discussion in   ForexTradingEVO .com

Your discussion is really knowledgeable for me and i solve my problem through your discussion.

Thank You


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## Galloglaich

Which problem was that?

G.


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## Galloglaich

Ok so I've been doing some research recently about armor and firearms, and I thought I'd share some of what I've found here.  What I was trying to figure out was how well armor protected against the firearms of the 15th Centruy, in the 16th Century, and afterword in the 17th and 18th Century.

My primary source for armor is an excellent and in HEMA circles somewhat famous book called [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Knight-Blast-Furnace-History-Metallurgy/dp/9004124985/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276098125&sr=8-1]The Knight and the Blast Furnace[/ame].  Unfortunately for me a copy of this book runs about $300 (if you can find it).  But foruntely for me, a partial transcription of the book is now available on google books.

Here is the google books for Knight and the Blast Furnace
The knight and the blast furnace: a ... - Google Books

What makes this book so remarkable and valuable to researchers like me is that the author, Alan Williams, spent 30 years travelling to Museums around the world with a microscope and durometer and a variety of other tools, and measured the thickness, hardness, metalurgy, and chemical composition of over 600 pieces of antique European armor.  He is to armor kind of what Ewart Oakeshott was to swords.

So he is a terrific resource if you want to know the reality of armor.  As a baseline for Williams wor, to start with, I wanted to look at some modern armor.  This modern commercially available armored plate:
http://www.mtlgrp.com/pdf/Armox-Armour.pdf
...can, according to the trade lit linked above, stop a .357 magnum at 5 meters with 3mm thickness, or an M-16 5.56  / FN-FAL .308 at 10 meters with 6mm thickness (almost half an inch).  

This is a medium tempered steel alloy with .3% carbon, and trace amounts of molybdenum, nickel, chromium, and mangenese which they say gives an 'equivalent carbon content' of 0.67%. The steel has a hardness of 480 - 540 HB.

I wanted to compare that hardness to the numbers quoted in Knight and the Blast Furnace.  Alan  Williams uses the VPH scale.  So for example on page 379 of Knight and the Blast Furnace there is a 15th Century Tempered German breastplate listed with an average hardness of 405 VPH which translates to about 380 HB, if I'm reading that right, which seems to be in the ballpark (76%) of the average hardness for the modern armor cited above.  Unfortunately Alan doesn't list the thickness of the specific plate, but in the 15th Century it rangd from about 1.8 to 3mm depending on where on the armor it was.  

So it seems to me that this 15th Century armor was probably sufiicient to protect against a .357 magnum at medium range, which is somewhat surprising

On page 409 there is another similar half-armor, tempered steel at 0.5% carbon with an average hardness of 408 VPH

Another similar tempered steel three quarters anime harness on page 414 has an average VPH of 407 and a carbon content of 0.5%

I was using this table for conversion:
Steel Hardness Conversions

NEXT: comparing armor to the muzzle energy of hand-culverins, arquebuses, muskets and modern firearms and 15th, 16th and 17tth Century armor.

G.


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## Votan

Galloglaich said:


> So it seems to me that this 15th Century armor was probably sufiicient to protect against a .357 magnum at medium range, which is somewhat surprising.




How would this stack up to high pull arrows?  Say an English Longbow or a crossbow with a high draw weight?  

Or are bows so different in their physics that the questions isn't applicable (given faster loss of energy due to air resistance, lower velocities and pointed tips)?


----------



## Galloglaich

Votan said:


> How would this stack up to high pull arrows?  Say an English Longbow or a crossbow with a high draw weight?
> 
> Or are bows so different in their physics that the questions isn't applicable (given faster loss of energy due to air resistance, lower velocities and pointed tips)?




Bows are different due to the shape and hardness of the projectiles but there are applicable correlations.

I want to stipulate though, that the issue of longbows vs. armor specifically has been an internet fault line for close to a decade and is still an unresolved argument.   I don't really care that much about this argument, though I do have my own opinion (which I'm going to share) but I don't claim to know anything definitively, all I can do is share the data I have available and my own $.02.

There have been many tests which have been done with longbows and armor, and none of them satisfy everybody in the debates; people claim different things about the armor used in the test (based on thickness, metalurgy, or tempering if any), or the padding under or over the armor (esp. important with mail), or the bow (estimates of English longbow strength go from 90 lbs to 200 lbs draw, though a consensus is emerging that 110 - 120 was about average during the heyday of what many people are now calling the English Warbow) or the arrows (whether needle-point bodkins or broadheads work best is another point of contention) are correct.

Anyway my current personal OPINION** is that a longbow could _*not *_penetrate good quality plate armor*, but it could penetrate mail at most distances (depending on some other factors like how thick the aketon or gambeson is) and could penetrate thinner or more poorly made munitions-grade armor, and go around armor espc. on horses.  Obviously massed archery was effective against armored heavy cavalry that couldn't get out of the way just as massed gunfire was well before the era when firearms were capable of directly defeating the best plate armor at long range.   

According to Alan Williams the longbow could generate around 80 Joules, but he was testing with a pretty weak bow (I think 70 lbs).  If you extrapolate from the power of the weapon he was testing with to more like the ones found on the (16th Century) wreck of the Mary Rose, you could double or even triple that to perhaps 250-300 Joules, but that is still not sufficient to defeat the best quality plate armor and the penetration falls off rapidly with distance.   Add in steel armor piercing arrow heads you might get close enough to cross the threshold into penetration for a typical iron (if not a tempered steel) breastplate, but probably only at very short (point blank) range.  In my opinion anyway.  

Williams estimates that it takes about 1500 Joules to penetrate Medieval Iron armor of 1.9 mm thickness with a lead ball, 900 Joules to penetrate with a steel ball.  Tempered steel roughly doubles this to 3000 / 1800 Joules.

Anyway I've got to run my lunch break is over but I'll follow up on this with some more data after work.

G.

*Crossbows may be another story, but more about that later.
** This could change subject to new data becoming available


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## Galloglaich

Ok a bit more data etc.
*
On Crossbows. *

Here there is a big blank spot.  There have been a lot of studies and amateur testing done on pretty authentic longbows in the last ten years or so, there has been a ton of testing done on armor most notably by Mr. Williams but there have also been several other studies.   

There have also been studies done with firearms and armor directly.  

But with crossbows there is a blank, mainly because we don't have many crossbows equivalent to those used in the 14th-16th Centuries available for testing.  Alan Williams mentions one semi-formal test of a 1200 lb draw antique but detail was scant other than it shot a bolt 450  yards.  Most of the antiques which still survive may be too dangerous to test with after 500 - 600 years, and there are only a handful of people around today who have the sufficient knowledge and skill to forge prods capable of the 800 - 1200 lb draw weight of a Renaissance heavy arbalest.

However I have been advised by a smith in the UK that he has  a client who recently ordered a 950 lb crossbow specifically for testing, hopefully they will do a good well documented test on some realistic armor and then we will know something further.   At this point I don't even know what the energy of a 950 lb crossbow is or how it compares with a longbow or a musket.

http://www.aiacrossbow.com/crossbow/exomax/

I know modern hunting crossbows of between 150 and 220 lb draw generate between 120 - 150 joules depending on the quarrel used.   I assume a 1,200 lb draw arbalest would be significantly more powerful than that but various other factors like the span distance (short on most antique crossbows) and size of the prod all factor into the power of the weapon.  Crossbows do shoot a bolt about twice as heavy as the arrow shot by a longbow.  How powerful were Renaissance crossbows?  We really don't know at this point.  In the heydey of plate armor in the 15th Century, they apparently considered crossbows a significant but not insuperable threat.  Italian armor of this period was proofed at two levels, for the 'little crossbow' and for the 'big crossbow'.  The latter was a higher grade of armor (the top grade).  
*
On Firearms*

Here is some more information from 'Knight and the Blast Furnace':
from Chapter 9 of Williams' book, p. 942 - 948
1.9mm wrought iron plate requires 900J from a  steel ball or 1500J from a lead ball to defeat it. 
2mm of Good quality tempered steel  armor can resist about 1800J from a steel bullet or 3000J from a lead bullet. 
An average quality 4mm iron cuirassier's breastplate (17th century) would need  2000J to defeat it.
There were also up to 6mm thick iron cuirasses in the 17th Century and special laminate cuirasses made from 2mm of steel and 3mm of iron.  These were apparently very effective but I don't have any data on them yet.

From p. 945
a Hussite 15th C handgun with  serpentine powder produces 500-1000J at the muzzle.
early 16th C arquebus with serpentine powder  produces 1300J at the muzzle
the same weapon with corned powder  produces 1750J
later 16th C musket with serpentine powder produces  2300J
the same weapon with corned powder produces 3000 J

Bringing in modern firearms* based on this wiki on Muzzle Energy,
.357 Magnum revolver with a 6" barrel 750 Joules 
.44 Magnum                                   1400 Joules
Ak-47 (7.62 x 39mm)                       2070 Joules
FN-FAL / M-60 (7.62 x 51mm)           3799 Joules
.50 Cal BMG                                  15000 Joules

*Of course this is all potentially different depending on the ammunition and the barrel length.  

One of the interesting things about all this to me (if it is correct) is how powerful 16th Century muskets got, they were comparable in muzzle energy to an Ak-47!    Of course bullets from modern firearms also retain their energy much longer than Musket or Arquebus balls do and modern bullets probably penetrate better.  The stats on the armor make me wonder if a good 15th Century harness could stop an Ak-47 bullet...  I wish I had some tempered steel armor that I could shoot at with an Ak-47 or a .357.     (I wish I lived on my own island with Scarlet Johansson too.)  Also, I wish I had a .50 caliber machine gun I shot one once in the army those things are bad ass.

But this does seems to  support the opinion of  [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Armourer-His-Craft-XVIth-Century/dp/0486258513"]Charles  Ffoulkes[/ame] that regular plate  armor is capable of resisting the firearms of the 15th and early 16th Century.  It's only in the latter half of the 16th century that armor is seriously threatened by firearms.   This is why Muskets were originally considered special armor-piercing weapons, used alongside smaller arquebus for a long time before the two weapons kind of merged together (the musket got smaller and gradually replaced the arquebus).  

Of course even if your armor made you relatively safe from firearms, there was no armor in existence which protected you from cannon fire, and horses could only be partially armored at best (never on their legs for example) so the value of armor was in decline.







But armor clearly had a great deal of value and looking at this data you can begin to understand why so much very high quality armor was produced during the Renaissance at so much expense in spite of the presence of large numbers of recurve bows, longbows, crossbows, halberds and firearms including pistols, arquebuses and hand-culverins.   In some 15th Century battles tens of thousands of soldiers fought in heavy armor, to fight without armor protection in this time period meant almost certain death.

G.


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## Emirikol

Awesome ideas.  My favorite book is:  What People Wore by Gorseline.

What people wore: 1,800 ... - Google Books


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## Votan

Galloglaich said:


> Anyway my current personal OPINION** is that a longbow could _*not *_penetrate good quality plate armor*, but it could penetrate mail at most distances (depending on some other factors like how thick the aketon or gambeson is) and could penetrate thinner or more poorly made munitions-grade armor, and go around armor espc. on horses.  Obviously massed archery was effective against armored heavy cavalry that couldn't get out of the way just as massed gunfire was well before the era when firearms were capable of directly defeating the best plate armor at long range.




Thank you.

I didn't intend to drag you into an area of controversy and was mostly interested in the question as to whether better penetration by bows could have delayed the adoption of firearms.  But some of the results for high quality armor were slightly counter-intuitive so it was worth seeing where else my intuition might have failed.  

It is a real challenge to go back and look at historical events (where the relevant details may have not been recorded) and guesswork is always involved.  But I do not that close examination of events often shows my (personal) naive intuition not to be correct (I would have have bet on the Samurai versus the Europeans even if they had 5-6 times the numbers if melee was involved -- your cool account of the actual action suggests that was an absurd over-statement of the differences in training and equipment).


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## Galloglaich

Don't worry you didn't drag me anywhere I was just trying to forestall anyone getting annoyed at me over my opinion on longbows.

It's very tricky to generalize about any period of history. I'm not sure what the definitive answer is regarding Europeans vs. Samurai for example, I know a few anecdotes but the plural of anecdotes is not statistics  I think there is more data to emerge on this subject, and there may never be a definitive answer about which style of warfare had more merit.

Like you I am constantly surprised by what I learn of history especially as accurate technical data about arms and armor and European Martial arts has gradually begun to emerge in the last few years. I don't think it's actually a failure of intuition though, I think it's a failure of our media and education systems to inform us even remotely accurately. And our own eagerness to accept simplistic generalizations and failure to think for ourselves. The bottome line is we want to make broad sweeping statements about say, the Middle Ages or the Renaissance, but it's very hard to do that. So instead of the very interesting reality those of us interested in these periods end up with Capitol One Barbarians and Medieval higgins boats.

With armor, the last word is not out yet, but the data which has emerged so far is surprising to me and quite throught provoking. One of the myths we English-speakers live with is the idea of historical progress, a legacy of Victorian thinking. So in order to feel right about the world we _have_ to believe our ancestors were nastier, more brutish, and shorter* the further back we go in time. But when you look closer, you can clearly see, this was not necessarily the case.

G.

* that is a joke


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## Raven Crowking

Galloglaich said:


> One of the myths we English-speakers live with is the idea of historical progress, a legacy of Victorian thinking. So in order to feel right about the world we _have_ to believe our ancestors were nastier, more brutish, and shorter* the further back we go in time. But when you look closer, you can clearly see, this was not necessarily the case.





Bears repeating.


RC


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## Galloglaich

Ok I guess on one level it's a doll or something, but this 1/6 scale miniature of a Crusader knight is pretty damn cool




http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4003/4192699510_3fa1244149_o.jpg

http://www.onesixthwarriors.com/for...crusader-02-20-more-making-pics-page-6-a.html


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## Dannyalcatraz

Raven Crowking said:


> Bears repeating.




_THERE'S_ a sound you don't want to hear in the woods...


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## Matthew_

Galloglaich said:


> And our own eagerness to accept simplistic generalizations and failure  to think for ourselves. The bottome line is we want to make broad  sweeping statements about say, the Middle Ages or the Renaissance, but  it's very hard to do that. So instead of the very interesting reality  those of us interested in these periods end up with Capitol One  Barbarians and Medieval higgins boats.



Yes, indeed, exactly this. We very often only see what we want to see,  and only hear what we want to hear. Despite being reasonably well  informed on the subject of medieval and ancient arms and armour, I find  myself easily lapsing into inaccuracies and generalisations once I get  some distance between myself and a specific area of investigation.  Indeed, part of the appeal of some "revisionist" areas of history is  that it tends to accord more strongly with my youthful preconceptions  than the Monty Python-esque portrayals of the recent past, depictions  that I feel arose partly in opposition to the glorification of brutality  and violence. 



Galloglaich said:


> Okay I guess on one level it's a doll or something, but this 1/6 scale miniature of a Crusader knight is pretty damn cool...



 Ha! Turns out the comment I made in the _Giant in the Playground_ thread would have been more appropriate here, given the preceding discussion...

"Next the guy has to build a 1:6 scale crossbow and shoot him with it!"


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## Galloglaich

Matthew_ said:


> Yes, indeed, exactly this. We very often only see what we want to see, and only hear what we want to hear. Despite being reasonably well informed on the subject of medieval and ancient arms and armour, I find myself easily lapsing into inaccuracies and generalisations once I get some distance between myself and a specific area of investigation. Indeed, part of the appeal of some "revisionist" areas of history is that it tends to accord more strongly with my youthful preconceptions than the Monty Python-esque portrayals of the recent past, depictions that I feel arose partly in opposition to the glorification of brutality and violence.




It's a good point, though I think we have been through a _long_ run, maybe 150 years? of leaning too far in the "Medieval people were stupid and everything they did sucked" direction. And ironically one of the Pythons themselves, Terry Jones, has written some excellent revisionist popular history in the last few years, has been a humorous voice for critical thinking about many of our worst preconceptions and cliches about history (including some of the ones Monty Python invented). 

But you raise an excellent point. We often trade one cliche for another and I do find myself falling into this trap still over and over. I think 20% of my brain has accepted that History is completely open ended. That 20% is very happpy and grows a little stronger every day (it was probably just 5% a few years ago) because we live in a period of very rich data and new surprising revelations are constantly emerging. But the other 80% of me keeps over and over again makig alliances with this or that theory, or idea, or (worst of all) ancient group of people who seem cool, and then is thrown over and disappointed every time I read a new book and find out it wasn't so cut and dry. 

Jacob Burckhardt, the famous historian of Renaissance Italy, (and Niestches reluctant History teacher) criticized the tendancy of having any grand theories of history at all, and recommended accepting the fact that history was complex and does not fit any pattern. I try to keep this in mind as I continue to learn. And that 20% grows a little more happy, because it knows it will always be entertained and can watch the patterns of reality endlessly come into focus and only make 'alliances' to what appears to be true, without being offended when the root of the tree twists in another direction; (only delighted to visit a new unexpected region). Reading history (in the form of primary sources and current archeology) has become for me, getting hooked on the ultimate fantasy or sci fi series that never ends and never 'jumps the shark'.



> Ha! Turns out the comment I made in the _Giant in the Playground_ thread would have been more appropriate here, given the preceding discussion...
> 
> "Next the guy has to build a 1:6 scale crossbow and shoot him with it!"



yeah but how do we make all those teeny tiny rivets so the mail will work properly? 

G.


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## Galloglaich

Another really good resource if you are doing research on Armor: Charles Ffoulkes The Armourer and his craft, in an online scan:

Ffoulkes, C - The Armourer and His Craft (Read in "Fullscreen")

G.


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## MichaelSomething

Galloglaich said:


> Reading history (in the form of primary sources and current archeology) has become for me, getting hooked on the ultimate fantasy or sci fi series that never ends and never 'jumps the shark'.




I accept your shark jumping challenge!  I don't suppose you know where to find the sources/archeology to confirm the info in those links?  Either way, I finally have the inspiration I need for the wedding adventure I always wanted to write!

On a more serious note, have ever considered making an actual "blog" blog instead of using a forum to display all of your info? I honestly think that using a blogging site/program/thing would be a benefit to you.


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## Galloglaich

Ha!  I'm afraid weddings history is well out of my purview, that is pretty far out   Maybe one day I'll encompass that among my interests.  Weddings and relations between the sexes are actually kind of interesting in a Viking or Celtic context for example.

But yeah fair enough... history is fun but there are plenty of places you can get bogged down!

As for a blog, I've thought about that for a long time, it's a bit of a buy-in for me to take the plunge into "doing it right".  I like this thread because other people chime in on it, one day I'll probably start a real blog or two though (I have widely divergent interests which don't really overlap in terms of who is interested in them.)  But for now I like this place I've had a good time with this thread.

Anyway, back to the thread, speaking of Vikings here is something I ran across I thought was pretty cool, fire starting Viking style

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIQK7aHAmVk"]YouTube - Medieval Scandinavian Firelighting[/ame]

...and boiling water in a "field expedient" Viking technique:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEawdGbv0xg"]YouTube - Hot Rock Water Boiling[/ame]

G.


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## Matthew_

Galloglaich said:


> It's a good point, though I think we have  been through a _long_ run, maybe 150 years? of leaning too far in  the "Medieval people were stupid and everything they did sucked"  direction. And ironically one of the Pythons themselves, Terry Jones,  has written some excellent revisionist popular history in the last few  years, has been a humorous voice for critical thinking about many of our  worst preconceptions and cliches about history (including some of the  ones Monty Python invented).



Yes, indeed, and though I have severe reservations about the work of Terry Jones, it certainly is the case that in the last couple of decades the popular perception of medieval society has begun to shift.



Galloglaich said:


> But you raise an excellent point. We often trade one cliche for another  and I do find myself falling into this trap still over and over. I think  20% of my brain has accepted that History is completely open ended.  That 20% is very happy and grows a little stronger every day (it was  probably just 5% a few years ago) because we live in a period of very  rich data and new surprising revelations are constantly emerging. But  the other 80% of me keeps over and over again making alliances with this  or that theory, or idea, or (worst of all) ancient group of people who  seem cool, and then is thrown over and disappointed every time I read a  new book and find out it wasn't so cut and dry.



I can certainly sympathise with that.



Galloglaich said:


> Jacob Burckhardt, the famous historian of Renaissance Italy, (and  Niestches reluctant History teacher) criticized the tendency of having  any grand theories of history at all, and recommended accepting the fact  that history was complex and does not fit any pattern. I try to keep  this in mind as I continue to learn. And that 20% grows a little more  happy, because it knows it will always be entertained and can watch the  patterns of reality endlessly come into focus and only make 'alliances'  to what appears to be true, without being offended when the root of the  tree twists in another direction; (only delighted to visit a new  unexpected region). Reading history (in the form of primary sources and  current archaeology) has become for me, getting hooked on the ultimate  fantasy or sci fi series that never ends and never 'jumps the shark'.



Exactly so, perhaps the most difficult aspect to come to terms with is that although the events and reality of history are static and done, our understanding of them is always in motion and will always be incomplete. The temptation to say "this is how it was" is always greatest when somebody resuscitates an outdated theory, and I often notice in such exchanges how fragile new ideas can be, and how robust deeply entrenched received wisdom is by contrast.



Galloglaich said:


> Another really good resource if you are doing research on Armor: Charles Ffoulkes The Armourer and his craft, in an online scan:
> 
> Ffoulkes, C - The Armourer and His Craft (Read in "Fullscreen")



That is a very good scan, and nice to see it at Scribd in a non-downloadable format. Hard to imagine that it was first published almost 100 years ago, but interesting to imagine how it might have helped inform RPG designer in the 70s, 80s and 90s. I know Gygax had a copy of a shorter work by the same author published in 1909 when he was working on the DMG, and that this later volume is cited as a source in the second edition _Arms & Equipment Guide_.


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## Galloglaich

For the Neal Stephenson fans and anybody who has an I-pad (I don't):

Neal Stephenson to launch interactive novel for the iPad | Geek Gestalt - CNET News


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxp3zEIk_KY"]YouTube - Historical Scope[/ame]

G.


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## Galloglaich

Interesting test with a 15th Century hussite style handgonne, looks like penetration at about 5 or 10', then it bounced off at about 20'

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdXy0IfsWsE"]YouTube - handgonne vs breastplate[/ame]

That is a .75 cal handgonne or hand-culverin, it has roughly equivalent muzzle energy of a .357 magnum with a 158 grain bullet


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## Galloglaich

Who says primitive 15th Century firearms can't be fun?  I gotta get me an arquebus

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkbSTyT1COE&feature=fvw]YouTube - Boom with Slayer[/ame]


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## Galloglaich

*Introducing the Balestrino*







So one of the tropes of fantasy films, computer games and RPG's is the* Pistol Crossbow*.   A nifty device to be sure.  The question is, did these weapons actually have any basis in fact?

The internet is flooded with modern toys like this






and completely useless fake "antiques" like this









...which look sort of cool the (first time you see one) in a steampunk kind of way but are not based on anything remotely real.   

But perhaps surprisingly, there actually does exist a small pistol sized crossbow which showed up during the Renaissance in Europe, mostly in Italy, and can still be found today on some auction sites now and again.


They are called by different names but most commonly something like "Balestrino", possibly named after a town in Italy where they may have been made or used.  Here are some examples of antiques:











And here is a modern good quality reproduction from Todds Stuff in the UK

Balestrino Crossbow | Tod's Stuff






So the question is, what are these?  Well first of all they do have one feature that differentiates from modern 'safety-last' toys and non functional steampunk replicas.  Like most Renaissance or medieval crossbows, these Balestrino had a much heavier draw weight than their modern equivalent.  That is because with a short bow and a narrow spanning distance, you need a lot of power to make a projectile move at a useful speed.  So to span these, you have to turn a screw, which you will notice as something like a butterfly wingnut on the two antiques above.  This allowed you to gradually span the weapon without having to exert the two or three hundred pounds of pressure required to pull the string back (something most men could not easily do then as now). 

There are rumors in the historical record that these were used as assassination weapons, which is a rather titilating idea.  In spite of the more powerful prods however, most people today who know about such things consider the Balestrino a mere toy.  The argument is, why would a real assassin use such a relatively weak, and expensive (since most surviving Balestrino bows are made with rare materials and workmanship) weapon instead of something cheaper and more effective.  Like say, a knife or a pistol since these crossbows appeared contemporaneously with firearms.

A reasonable argument to be sure.

But I'm going to kind of go against the grain on this one, I don't want to say definitively because I have never handled let alone shot an antique, but I think these things _were_ possibly used for assassinations.  


You have to keep in mind a couple of things.  The first is about Renaissance Italy.   Assassinations were not just the vocation of the kind of low level professional criminals we think of today who would pull a hit on somebody, but the hobby of high ranking aristocrats, patrician burghers and even members of the College of Cardinals all of whom assassinated one another fairly routinely in the 15th, 16th, and 17th Centuries. 






Hence we have very nice rings and broaches from the Renaissance which were made with compartments for poison or drugs, beautifully wrought stilettos galore, and perhaps these little 'toys' as well.  

Second, like some other folks in this thread I've played around a bit with modern toy crossbows.  A cheap 80 lb draw "pistol" crossbow probably qualifies as a lethal weapon only against maybe rats, or possibly small birds.  It just isn't powerful enough to hurt a grown man unless you were extremely lucky.  In other words definitely a toy.  A rather dangerous (to the user) 180 lb draw pistol crossbow that I had for a while on the other hand would shoot these crappy aluminum bolts halfway through a two inch thick oak door I had in my yard from about 20' away (and always ruin the bolts).  I think that would indeed be enough to kill someone, or cause a serious life threatening injury, if you used needle like steel bolts and hit them say in the neck or the face.  I would think a toy could be more like in the 80 lb range that you can easily span with your hands, rather than the 200-300 lb range you need a miniature jack to span.

It's still not nearly as powerful as a longbow or a pistol but, neither were these Chinese repeating crossbows...






...and they were used for a couple of thousand years as weapons (incidentally, with poison)

I have also read (admittedly, in modern historical analysis) that these small crossbows and pistols both created a minor outrage and a mini-legal crisis when they first appeared, due to the danger of assassinations.  Pistols are much more effective but, they were also very loud and created a telltale plume of smoke, instantly marking the assailant.  A crossbow like this could be concealed within the clothing, then used with some hope of effectiveness, concealed again briefly, and discarded at the first opportunity if necessary, all without drawing any undue attention.






Think of it as a silenced .22 Baretta 70 S.   A lot of people think of a .22 as a toy.  It's certainly not nearly as effective at killing as an Ak-47 or a Mac-10, but it was, incidentally, the preferred weapon of the Mossad for about 40 years.

Just my $.02.

G.


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## Votan

Galloglaich said:


> ...and they were used for a couple of thousand years as weapons (incidentally, with poison)




Even before I hit this part of the discussion, I saw the poison angle coming.  With a strong poison on the tip, a hand crossbow is a good way to deliver a poisoned dart at range.  In addition, I wonder if it might be less susceptible to misfires and/or require less time to set off than a pistol.  Ten feet of range makes it a lot harder for bodyguards to get in the way.

Which, as a complete tangent, makes their appearance in AD&D as drow weapons (coated with poison no less) even more interesting as renaissance Italy is one of the few good examples of a historical society even remotely like that of the drow.


----------



## Galloglaich

Thats true... the drow world is pretty much Renaissance Italy with absolutely no conscience or friendless... with all the friendly Italian grandmother taken out of it.  Like it's 100% Cesare Borgia.  And underground of course.  Kind of a scary thought.

I always did think Drow were one of the cleverest inventions of DnD.  Do they have any other literary source or did DnD invent them?

G.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Side note: if you like reading about Machiavellian societies, you really should give CJ Cherryh's _Foreigner_ books a read.

Essentially, they're 7'+ tall drow lookalikes with a Fusion age Feudal society who have had First Contact with some crashed Interstellar Age humans...


----------



## Galloglaich

Wasn't that called "avatar"?    No wait fusion ok nevermind .  Sounds interesting actually I'll throw that on my amazon queue.

I really enjoyed this wierd book recently.  It's kind of hard to describe but it's set in the Renaissance, has magical elements, and ... it's a trip.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Drawing-Dark-Del-Rey-Impact/dp/0345430816]Amazon.com: The Drawing of the Dark (Del Rey Impact) (9780345430816): Tim Powers: Books[/ame]

G.


----------



## tuxgeo

Galloglaich said:


> Thats true... the drow world is pretty much Renaissance Italy with absolutely no conscience or friendless... with all the friendly Italian grandmother taken out of it.  Like it's 100% Cesare Borgia.  And underground of course.  Kind of a scary thought.
> 
> I always did think Drow were one of the cleverest inventions of DnD.  Do they have any other literary source or did DnD invent them?
> 
> G.



EGG famously said that he stole his demihuman races from the same place Professor Tolkien stole his own: Norse mythology. 

I find it wacky that EGG coined the word "drow" to describe the evil, dark-skinned elves who live underground, when the Norse saga called them "dvergar," or sometimes "svartálfar." I'm thinking that this must be a nod to Tolkien, used to keep the "drow" separate from the "dwarves" -- because, while darkelves and dwarves were one and the same thing in Norse mythology, Tolkien described _his_ dwarves as being Good-aligned, in contrast to the Evil-alignment of the Norse dvergar (svartálfar).  

Wikipedia has more.


----------



## Galloglaich

@Doh!  Thanks, I should have remembered the svartalfar .... I think I mentioned them in the post on Elves earlier in this thread.      

To be honest though the svartalfar and dwarves of Norse mythology have a kind of different feel than DnD Drow don't you think?  The Tolkein elves are a closer fit, Tolkein just kind of took away their randy rowdy pagan aspects and made them kind of chaste angelic beings.   Dnd made them into just people with pointy ears.  But the drow have a personality all their own... it's too bad the other mythical races in DnD aren't as well developed. 


G.


----------



## Galloglaich

Ever wondered what a Medieval warship looked like?

This is a model of a 15th Century Hanseatic privateer (essentially a pirate ship) the Peter Von Danzig, apparently a pretty tough warship which wrought havoc against the English during the Anglo-Hanseatic war.






Peter von Danzig (ship) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I blundered across this when I was looking up Peter Von Danzig the 15th Century fencing master for an adventure I'm working on for the Codex.  Check out the fighting (shooting?) platform on the front of the ship.  The overall construction technique reminds me a bit of the Medieval loading crane which still exists in the town of Danzig (now called Gdansk)






We tend to think of people in the 1400's as kind of like cave men who lived in thatched huts, but they were a bit more sophisticated.

Danzig is a remarkably well preserved Renaissance town, check out the 16th Century town hall

http://www.talismancoins.com/catalog/Neptune_Statue_Gdansk.jpg

Similar to many of the other smaller (mostly Hanseatic) trading towns in the area, like 





Torun, 





and Riga all of which I hope to visit some day soon.


The career of the ships captain is pretty interesting too:

Paul Beneke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This guy is a great candidate for my "dilbert in the dungeon" list in the OP of this thread.  Apparently a long lived fellow, this Paul Beneke shifted his career from town counselor to privateer and Captain of the Von Danzig.  I bet he had an interesting life.  He captured numerous English vessels recovering many priceless goods including at least one highly notable art-treasure.

Good fodder for campaign material perhaps, and an insight into the reality of Renaissance life in an area outside of Italy.

G.


----------



## Matthew_

tuxgeo said:


> I find it wacky that EGG coined the word "drow" to describe the evil, dark-skinned elves who live underground, when the Norse saga called them "dvergar," or sometimes "svartálfar." I'm thinking that this must be a nod to Tolkien, used to keep the "drow" separate from the "dwarves" -- because, while dark elves and dwarves were one and the same thing in Norse mythology, Tolkien described _his_ dwarves as being Good-aligned, in contrast to the Evil-alignment of the Norse dvergar (svartálfar).



One possibility is that the D&D "drow" is related to "trow".


----------



## El Mahdi

Galloglaich said:


> ...This is a model of a 15th Century Hanseatic privateer (essentially a pirate ship) the Peter Von Danzig, apparently a pretty tough warship which wrought havoc against the English during the Anglo-Hanseatic war. ...




So the world has been rocked by Danzig since the 1400's? ... Sweet!


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Yeah...both the fencer for which it was renamed AND the namesake ship each had their own Dirty Black Summer...


----------



## Galloglaich

Ah well, it's a cool name but ... I think he rocked a lot harder when he was in his old band.

But as you know pirates used flags to scare their enemies, I wonder if the old *Peter Von Danzig* flew anything like this... 






G.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Galloglaich said:


> Ah well, it's a cool name but ... I think he rocked a lot harder when he was in his old band.
> 
> But as you know pirates used flags to scare their enemies, I wonder if the old *Peter Von Danzig* flew anything like this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> G.




And what if the ship's captain sounded like the "Evil Elvis" himself?

"Captain...
Tell your sailors not to come my way.
Tell your sailors they can sheathe their swords
If they fight
we will slay, 
Captain...

Captain!
Can you keep them from the plank of death?
Can you keep them from those hungry sharks?
Oh, Captain!"


----------



## Galloglaich

Ok speaking of modern pirates and shall we say, misfits?

Here is a new innovation from my local fencing group, which hearkens back to ye olde punk rock 80's and our adolescent obsession with Mad Max, I peresent a totally retarded creation, as of yesterday:

*The SDA NOLA Zompoc urban survival uber-Dussack*

Coming soon to an apocalypse near you...












G.


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## Dannyalcatraz

Looks cool!

When you said "local", I had to look at where you said you're living...I'm from New Orleans!

...barely- I'm an army brat who moved away when I was 4, but made frequent trips back to see the rest of the family up until Katrina hit.

Good to see that gaming in some form is alive in my old hometown.


----------



## Galloglaich

Wow.. no kidding? Small world huh brah? 

I was born and raised here, left town for a while in the mid 90's but came back about twelve years ago now, a few of my old friends from the old scene (like the guy in the photos above), live nearby now in the same neighborhood. A bunch of them are in my fencing club.

To be honest I don't do a lot of gaming any more, sadly, just a trickle here and there. This quasi-blog is my main gamer outlet these days. I have this fencing club doing HEMA fencing and that is where most of my Medieval instincts go to these days. It also keeps me from getting in trouble because i can get my aggressions out.

I'm hoping to start something up again soon though, everything and everybody got so scattered since katrina it's only now starting to come together... hopefully we can get through this year without a real bad oil soaked storm coming ashore. But I'm going to try to put together a group next month actually to do some beta testing of this canned adventure I'm doing for the Codex. If it goes well enough maybe I'll try to run an actual campaign.

If you are ever coming back to the 504 send me a PM or an email we can get together for a pint of Guinness and talk RPG nerd stuff  

G.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Well, post-Katrina, I don't get back to the Crescent City that much- almost everybody in my family who lived there in 05 moved to D/FW where I am!

But I still have a couple of cousins there.  If I get an invite, I'll drop a line!


----------



## Wolf1066

First and foremost, a heartfelt thanks to you, Galloglaich, for starting this thread and your many extremely informative, thought-provoking posts herein.  Likewise thanks to the other contributors.  This has pretty much got to be the best thread on any forum I've been on (and that's coming from a veteran "Forum Whore").

Subjects near and dear to my heart - it's taken me a number of days to read the thread with "minimal" side-trips to chase up some of the interesting links I've found here.



Galloglaich said:


> One of the myths we English-speakers live with is the idea of historical progress, a legacy of Victorian thinking. So in order to feel right about the world we _have_ to believe our ancestors were nastier, more brutish, and shorter* the further back we go in time. But when you look closer, you can clearly see, this was not necessarily the case.



Well said.  I note that a lot of people have the attitude of "but people were more ignorant/stupid/savage/uncivilised/etc back then" and it's quite common to be dismissive of our ancestors' capabilities - to the point, it seems, of being prepared to believe crack-pot theories that the ancient wonders had to have been built by aliens "because there's no way those ignorant savages could have built it..."

In fact, you listen to half the fad-diets these days and you would be forgiven for wondering how we managed to survive for so long as a species, given that everything we've traditionally eaten is "gunna kill us for sure".  Our poor ancestors must've had a hard time surviving without the benefit of having half a dozen quacks pointing out where they were going wrong with their food every fifteen minutes...

People latch onto anything they can to feel that we've improved as a species, that we're smarter, more civilised, better, than those who came before us.

The reality is far far more interesting.

My favourite cultures/periods of history are "Pre-Christian "Celtic" Europe" and 1700s.

A bit of a contrast in some ways.  But the thing that doesn't change is the inventiveness and complexity of people.


----------



## Galloglaich

Interesting tidbit for anyone who thought of using spider silk cloth in their campaign:

check it out

Spider Silk | American Museum of Natural History

notable quote:

"For its weight, spider silk is stronger than steel, but—unlike steel—it can stretch up to 40% of its normal length. Scientists are trying to produce this intriguing material artificially on a large scale *for possible uses on the battlefield,* in surgery, for space exploration, and elsewhere. Since raising spiders has proven difficult, researchers are investigating ways to replicate spider silk to avoid harvesting. However, spider silk is difficult to mimic in a lab because the silk begins as a liquid in the spider's gland, becoming a remarkably strong, water-resistant solid after following a complicated course through the spider's interior."

G.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

I have long dreamed of becoming the world's first spider-rancher.  Alas, besides the problems with harvesting spider silk, protecting my investment would prove difficult.  Every try branding one of those suckers?


----------



## Galloglaich

Found a cool research website while doing background on the Medieval Baltic for my new canned module for the codex, though I would share:

All to do with the interractions of Wolves and Teutonic knights for example, spooky....


http://www.beasts-in-the-woods.org/index.html

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

Wolf1066 said:


> First and foremost, a heartfelt thanks to you, Galloglaich, for starting this thread and your many extremely informative, thought-provoking posts herein. Likewise thanks to the other contributors. This has pretty much got to be the best thread on any forum I've been on (and that's coming from a veteran "Forum Whore").
> 
> Subjects near and dear to my heart - it's taken me a number of days to read the thread with "minimal" side-trips to chase up some of the interesting links I've found here.




Thanks a lot Wolf!




> Well said. I note that a lot of people have the attitude of "but people were more ignorant/stupid/savage/uncivilised/etc back then" and it's quite common to be dismissive of our ancestors' capabilities - to the point, it seems, of being prepared to believe crack-pot theories that the ancient wonders had to have been built by aliens "because there's no way those ignorant savages could have built it..."




This makes me think of a documentary I saw about Machu Pichu.  After listening to the confident explanations of some people that the stones in a particular wall were so strait they could only have been cut with lasers, a local archeologist walked the camera crew over to the nearby quarry where all the stone came from, then using traditional techniques took a half finished block, straightened it out with nothing other than another stone, and added it to an unfinished wall.  It was every bit as flat as the others...

Yes I agree this is a disease of modern perceptions, which goes to a deep emotional level with many folks.  I have this argument with a lot of people including some good friends.



> In fact, you listen to half the fad-diets these days and you would be forgiven for wondering how we managed to survive for so long as a species, given that everything we've traditionally eaten is "gunna kill us for sure". Our poor ancestors must've had a hard time surviving without the benefit of having half a dozen quacks pointing out where they were going wrong with their food every fifteen minutes...




It's funny how much they are going back to old Mediterranean diets etc. for heatlh now, having gone full circle through the 1950s improvemetns likke margarine..



> The reality is far far more interesting.
> 
> My favourite cultures/periods of history are "Pre-Christian "Celtic" Europe" and 1700s.




Have you ever seen the film "With fire and Sword"?



> A bit of a contrast in some ways. But the thing that doesn't change is the inventiveness and complexity of people.




Both are fascinating and evocative periods.  Pre-Christian Europe is particularly enigmatic, but a huge amount of material  has been published by Archeologists in the last 10 years, particularly out of Spain.

G.


----------



## Wolf1066

Galloglaich said:


> This makes me think of a documentary I saw about Machu Pichu.  After listening to the confident explanations of some people that the stones in a particular wall were so strait they could only have been cut with lasers, a local archeologist walked the camera crew over to the nearby quarry where all the stone came from, then using traditional techniques took a half finished block, straightened it out with nothing other than another stone, and added it to an unfinished wall.  It was every bit as flat as the others...



Love it!

I look at some of the preconceptions that people have about our "primitive" ancestors and think "no, people weren't that stupid or unobservant back then.

Bloody Victorians and their "historical progress" bollox!  

I've got a friend who's into black powder shooting who laments that modern powder is not as good as earlier powders - according to descriptions of achievable burns in firearms, none of the  modern powders measure up to what the powders back then were expected to  do so it seems that making decent gunpowder is one of the skills that got lost along the way.  While, on the face of it, it seems pretty straightforward, there's quite a bit of art to it and it relies on other industries that had quite a bit of art of their own - like charcoal-making.  Charcoal, so far as my own research leads me to believe, is the key factor in the quality of your powder and different charcoals from different woods - or charcoal blends - give different results.  It appears that somewhere along the way, the secret "recipe" for the right charcoal and processes for high quality BP got lost (probably with the increase in use of smokeless powders and the decrease in demand for black powder) and the modern stuff is a "reinvention" based on the old basic recipe but without the full understanding of the art.

Not even the top GOEX powders perform as the old powders were expected to - so much for "progress".

And that's just one of many "lost arts" I've heard of.


----------



## Ugulu the Barbarian

Umm ... So, I know this has nothing to do with the last post or anything, but has anybody here thought of how wonderfully well this works with E6 D&D? Especially if you were to actually set your D&D game in the real world


----------



## Galloglaich

I agree, I think it's a good fit.  The only thing in the codex which doesn't mesh with E6 is that many of of the 'Advanced' Martial Feats don't come into play until sixth level.  But for E6 all you really need to do is reduce that requirement to 4th level and no more problem.

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

Here is a good video about longbows.  Very detailed and interesting.

The website is Swedish but the video is in English.

*[FONT=&quot][/FONT]*_Companie of St Sebastian_



_[FONT=&quot][/FONT]_


----------



## Ugulu the Barbarian

Galloglaich said:


> I agree, I think it's a good fit.  The only thing in the codex which doesn't mesh with E6 is that many of of the 'Advanced' Martial Feats don't come into play until sixth level.  But for E6 all you really need to do is reduce that requirement to 4th level and no more problem.
> 
> G.




Well, yes; BUT, as long as you keep playing you still gain new feats based on XP gain, so it should still work out reasonably ... Unless ... Wait, did you mean for NPCs or antagonists getting those feats? Then yes, that could be a problem. But you could dumb them down to 4th level like you suggested.

So, I was thinking about how to create a more historically accurate Alchemist class, and I've hit a snag. The potions that they can create, while useful, aren't really designed for something that our typical adventuring PC would do, or be able to do at the least. This is because the Alchemist would need a lab, new ingredients, etc. Im reluctant to make this an NPC class ... Anybody have any suggestions for this? Im also thinking because of this class, Alchemy wouldn't be a skill, in case anybody was wondering.


----------



## Wolf1066

That is the trouble with some real-life professions, they don't lend themselves easily to the "roving adventurer" dynamic typical of games - and few people want to play an RPG where your character gets up in the morning, goes to work in the store/lab/mill does his work and then heads home.


----------



## Ugulu the Barbarian

Tell me about it. The most beneficial (realistic) thing that I can come up with is the ability to come create Liquid/Greek Fire, and use them as Grenades at level 6 (because I'd like to try and run E6 as long as I can get my player to agree with it). The upside to having a not so battle related PC class is that it encourages more RPing, and my group says they want to do that, so it might work out,


----------



## Matthew_

Galloglaich said:


> Here is a good video about longbows.  Very  detailed and interesting.
> 
> The website is Swedish but the video is in English.
> 
> _Companie of St Sebastian_



Nice talk; not sure I would take everything he says at face value, such as the age a 120 lb long bow would be suitable for, or the shooting of knights out of their saddles, but I would guess that he is better positioned than me to guess at these things.


----------



## El Mahdi

Wolf1066 said:


> That is the trouble with some real-life professions, they don't lend themselves easily to the "roving adventurer" dynamic typical of games - and few people want to play an RPG where your character gets up in the morning, goes to work in the store/lab/mill does his work and then heads home.




That's when you just skip ahead to the good parts!


----------



## Galloglaich

Matthew_ said:


> Nice talk; not sure I would take everything he says at face value, such as the age a 120 lb long bow would be suitable for, or the shooting of knights out of their saddles, but I would guess that he is better positioned than me to guess at these things.




Yeah I agree with you about both of those points, but he's a longbow enthusiast.... .

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

> That is the trouble with some real-life professions, they don't lend  themselves easily to the "roving adventurer" dynamic typical of games -  and few people want to play an RPG where your character gets up in the  morning, goes to work in the store/lab/mill does his work and then heads  home.




Ah... you know that kind of statement is like putting a red flag in front of a bull in this thread right? 

I think the above statement is true only if you are looking at a DnD or RPG version of 'real life professions' as opposed to the actual historical one.



Ugulu the Barbarian said:


> Tell me about it. The most beneficial (realistic) thing that I can come up with is the ability to come create Liquid/Greek Fire, and use them as Grenades at level 6 (because I'd like to try and run E6 as long as I can get my player to agree with it). The upside to having a not so battle related PC class is that it encourages more RPing, and my group says they want to do that, so it might work out,




Yeah... I'm not sure about that.  I think alchemists could be very powerful.  If for example, you handled acids realistically for example.  Al Jebir, 'The Alchemist' and Zakariya al-Razi discovered Nitric, Hydrochloric and Sulfuric acid in the 9th Century AD, and the distilation of alcohol and kerosine.  

Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These chemicals were known and perfected as 'aqua regia' and 'aqua fortis' etc. during the Middle Ages in Italy when his work (and that of other Arab and Persian alchemists) was discovered.  In 'real-life' acid is not only a very formidable weapon, but it can be used for other very useful things like damaging locks, destroying various things.  

Distilled Spirits / Alcohol is another extremely useful substance which, if handled realistically, could be of immense value.  I don't have to tell you how dangerous kerosine can be in the wrong hands.

Gunpowder was another valuable substance "invented" by medieval Alchemists (though it was already known in China), Roger Bacon published the formula in his 'Opus Magus' in the 1267 AD.  He also outlines the uses of lenses, which again, I probably don't have to explain the tactical value of magnifying glasses, spy glasses etc. to an adventurer.

Opus Majus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Drugs, can be very potent.  Opium, hallucinogenics, and medicine all have their various uses.  A dragon which ate a sheep say, that was infused with opium, would probably be sleeping for a long time.  I don't even want to think about a Dragon which has been dosed with cylocibin cubensis or ergot (essentially LSD) or belladonna.

And that is just if you use the realistic.  You don't have to have your alchemist stick to the real world.  Surviving alchemical documents include formulae for everything from summoning scorpions to raising the dead to creating artificial life.  The alchemical science of 'Takwin', which the Arab alchemists were obsessed with, dealt all to do with the creation of artificial lives:

"Jābir's alchemical investigations ostensibly revolved around the  ultimate goal of _takwin_ — the artificial creation of life. The _Book  of Stones_ includes several recipes for creating creatures such as scorpions,  snakes,  and even humans  in a laboratory environment, which are subject to the control of their  creator. What Jābir meant by these recipes is unknown."

JÄbir ibn HayyÄn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Takwin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The most famous case of this in Europe was the Marahval of Prague in the Renaissance,

Judah Loew ben Bezalel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Golem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It doesn't matter if these things actually existed or not, but people then actually believed them and the stories are much more elaborate and rich than anything anybody comes up with in gaming or RPG books.

And this is just scratching the surface.  The European alchemists of the Renaissance got into some really weird , and this went on for centuries.  Sir Issac Newton carried out a magical war against one of his rivals.  I don't have time to get into all of it here but it's far out stuff.

Anyway the bottom line is, I think there is plenty of room for a really cool alchemist class, I'd like to make one for the codex though I'm swamped with other stuff.  I'm probably going to include sort of a small prototype of one in my new canned adventure I'm working on right now.  

You can 'skip ahead to the good parts' the same way you 'skip ahead' with Wizards when they are studying spells and etc., but I don't even think that is necessary.  All this stuff is plenty interesting if you dig deep enough.

G.


----------



## Ugulu the Barbarian

Galloglaich said:


> Yeah... I'm not sure about that.  I think alchemists could be very powerful.  If for example, you handled acids realistically for example.  Al Jebir, 'The Alchemist' and Zakariya al-Razi discovered Nitric, Hydrochloric and Sulfuric acid in the 9th Century AD, and the distilation of alcohol and kerosine.
> 
> Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> These chemicals were known and perfected as 'aqua regia' and 'aqua fortis' etc. during the Middle Ages in Italy when his work (and that of other Arab and Persian alchemists) was discovered.  In 'real-life' acid is not only a very formidable weapon, but it can be used for other very useful things like damaging locks, destroying various things.
> 
> Distilled Spirits / Alcohol is another extremely useful substance which, if handled realistically, could be of immense value.  I don't have to tell you how dangerous kerosine can be in the wrong hands.
> 
> Gunpowder was another valuable substance "invented" by medieval Alchemists (though it was already known in China), Roger Bacon published the formula in his 'Opus Magus' in the 1267 AD.  He also outlines the uses of lenses, which again, I probably don't have to explain the tactical value of magnifying glasses, spy glasses etc. to an adventurer.
> 
> Opus Majus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Drugs, can be very potent.  Opium, hallucinogenics, and medicine all have their various uses.  A dragon which ate a sheep say, that was infused with opium, would probably be sleeping for a long time.  I don't even want to think about a Dragon which has been dosed with cylocibin cubensis or ergot (essentially LSD) or belladonna.
> 
> *And that is just if you use the realistic.  You don't have to have your alchemist stick to the real world.  Surviving alchemical documents include formulae for everything from summoning scorpions to raising the dead to creating artificial life.  The alchemical science of 'Takwin', which the Arab alchemists were obsessed with, dealt all to do with the creation of artificial lives:
> *
> "Jābir's alchemical investigations ostensibly revolved around the  ultimate goal of _takwin_ — the artificial creation of life. The _Book  of Stones_ includes several recipes for creating creatures such as scorpions,  snakes,  and even humans  in a laboratory environment, which are subject to the control of their  creator. What Jābir meant by these recipes is unknown."
> 
> JÄbir ibn HayyÄn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Takwin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> The most famous case of this in Europe was the Marahval of Prague in the Renaissance,
> 
> Judah Loew ben Bezalel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Golem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> It doesn't matter if these things actually existed or not, but people then actually believed them and the stories are much more elaborate and rich than anything anybody comes up with in gaming or RPG books.
> 
> And this is just scratching the surface.  The European alchemists of the Renaissance got into some really weird , and this went on for centuries.  Sir Issac Newton carried out a magical war against one of his rivals.  I don't have time to get into all of it here but it's far out stuff.
> 
> Anyway the bottom line is, I think there is plenty of room for a really cool alchemist class, I'd like to make one for the codex though I'm swamped with other stuff.  I'm probably going to include sort of a small prototype of one in my new canned adventure I'm working on right now.
> 
> You can 'skip ahead to the good parts' the same way you 'skip ahead' with Wizards when they are studying spells and etc., but I don't even think that is necessary.  All this stuff is plenty interesting if you dig deep enough.
> 
> G.




I thank you for the advice. The thing about Alchemists doing magical stuff is that the good ones (as I perceive it) realized that magic wasn't real, and so science became the answer. In a realistic/historic D&D game, this could go 1 of 2 ways as I see it. The 1st is that yes, they could at 20th level create a Golem in a world with some magic. While the 2nd is they create things that seem magical to the eye. I want to try an run a low magic E6 game, and so far, I have some idea as to the "potions" that Alchemists could create.

   aqua regia (highly corrosive/fast), potash (cleansing agent), kerosene (lubricant/lightable), tar (cure diseases/sticky), aetherolea (calming), acetic acid (corrosive), gunpowder (duh), dissolved talc (fire proof cream), liquid fire (weapon), ethanol (distilled alcohol) (causes vomiting), silly putty (IDK, but it could be made (in theory)), opium (healing/sleeping agent), ergot (temporary insanity), rusting agent, water proofing agent, glow in the dark agent.


If I should go ahead and stop filling your thread with this stuff, and make my own, let me know.


----------



## El Mahdi

Galloglaich said:


> ...I think alchemists could be very powerful. If for example, you handled acids realistically for example. Al Jebir, 'The Alchemist' and Zakariya al-Razi discovered Nitric, Hydrochloric and Sulfuric acid in the 9th Century AD, and the distilation of alcohol and kerosine.
> 
> These chemicals were known and perfected as 'aqua regia' and 'aqua fortis' etc. during the Middle Ages in Italy when his work (and that of other Arab and Persian alchemists) was discovered. In 'real-life' acid is not only a very formidable weapon, but it can be used for other very useful things like damaging locks, destroying various things.
> 
> Distilled Spirits / Alcohol is another extremely useful substance which, if handled realistically, could be of immense value. I don't have to tell you how dangerous kerosine can be in the wrong hands...




It's interesting you'd mention this stuff.  There's a character in the book The_Chalice_and_the_Blade, by Glenna McReynolds that is exactly like that.  He's a Dane in the service of a Norman Lord in the Welsh Marches that convinces people he's a sorcerer by using "alchemical" knowledge he aquired while on Crusade.  He specifically uses some of the things you mentioned.  The book is equal part romance novel as much as it is medieval fantasy, but it's very well researched in Muslim Alchemy and Welsh Mythology.  The Danish character would make an awesome model for a D&D Alchemist character.


----------



## Galloglaich

Ugulu the Barbarian said:


> I thank you for the advice. The thing about Alchemists doing magical stuff is that the good ones (as I perceive it) realized that magic wasn't real, and so science became the answer.




You would think.  But in reality that was not apparently the case.  Many of the top 'scientists' ancient times believed wholeheartedly in Magic of all different types.  All of them were astrologers.  Al Razi and Al Jebir believed they could summon things.  Sir Issac Newton was an out and out Wizard who conducted magical duels.  This is one of the things I find so interesting about them.  It kind of makes you wonder...  A lot of this actually springs from their interest in numerology and the very real science of mnemonics, which is where a lot of the European scholars got in trouble with the Church, like Giodorno Bruno.



> In a realistic/historic D&D game, this could go 1 of 2 ways as I see it. The 1st is that yes, they could at 20th level create a Golem in a world with some magic. While the 2nd is they create things that seem magical to the eye. I want to try an run a low magic E6 game, and so far, I have some idea as to the "potions" that Alchemists could create.
> 
> aqua regia (highly corrosive/fast), potash (cleansing agent), kerosene (lubricant/lightable), tar (cure diseases/sticky), aetherolea (calming), acetic acid (corrosive), gunpowder (duh), dissolved talc (fire proof cream), liquid fire (weapon), ethanol (distilled alcohol) (causes vomiting), silly putty (IDK, but it could be made (in theory)), opium (healing/sleeping agent), ergot (temporary insanity), rusting agent, water proofing agent, glow in the dark agent.
> 
> 
> If I should go ahead and stop filling your thread with this stuff, and make my own, let me know.




No these are fantastic!   I hadn't thought of about half of those.  Can I use this?

G.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Actually, I'd LOVE to see a thread dedicated to RW alchemy started by those who know the stuff.  Natural scientist/alchemist PCs in fantasy campaigns are among my favorite archetypes.

Not that the info doesn't belong here, per se, but just that it would probably help a lot more people if it weren't buried in this massive thread, and given the deeper treatment it fully deserves.

So...FORK AWAY, pal!


----------



## Ugulu the Barbarian

Galloglaich said:


> You would think.  But in reality that was not apparently the case.  Many of the top 'scientists' ancient times believed wholeheartedly in Magic of all different types.  All of them were astrologers.  Al Razi and Al Jebir believed they could summon things.  Sir Issac Newton was an out and out Wizard who conducted magical duels.  This is one of the things I find so interesting about them.  It kind of makes you wonder...  A lot of this actually springs from their interest in numerology and the very real science of mnemonics, which is where a lot of the European scholars got in trouble with the Church, like Giodorno Bruno.
> 
> 
> 
> No these are fantastic!   I hadn't thought of about half of those.  Can I use this?
> 
> G.




Oh, no, I'd be obliged if you did. I just did some digging through Wikipedia. How did people homebrew with out the internet?



Dannyalcatraz said:


> So...FORK AWAY, pal!




No to be, uhh, self-centered, but do you mean me, or G?


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

You seem to have the info- so go for it!


----------



## El Mahdi

Galloglaich said:


> You would think. But in reality that was not apparently the case. Many of the top 'scientists' ancient times believed wholeheartedly in Magic of all different types. All of them were astrologers. Al Razi and Al Jebir believed they could summon things. Sir Issac Newton was an out and out Wizard who conducted magical duels. This is one of the things I find so interesting about them. It kind of makes you wonder... A lot of this actually springs from their interest in numerology and the very real science of mnemonics, which is where a lot of the European scholars got in trouble with the Church, like Giodorno Bruno...




Absolutely. In fact, the reason why we call alcoholic beverages "spirits" is because when alchemists discovered that alcohol vapor would burn, but the vapor was invisible to them, they believed it was the "spirit" of the element that was burning. Even with the basically "scientific" manner in which they learned to make alcohol and other compounds, they still thought the elements had mystical properties.


Also, somebody else just started a thread about running an alchemy campaign: Adventures with an alchemy theme.


----------



## Ugulu the Barbarian

Im going to sound like an idiot, but ... How do I fork a thread? :|


----------



## El Mahdi

Ugulu the Barbarian said:


> Im going to sound like an idiot, but ... How do I fork a thread? :|




If I'm wrong, someone please correct me...

I believe all you do is go to the parent forum page (like General RPG Discussion), or the new forum you want the thread in, and click the New_Thread button (up at the top of the thread list, above the stickies).

In the title for your new thread put something like: *Real World Alchemy - Forked from: History, Mythology, Art and RPG's*.  (However, there is a limit to how many characters you can use for the title.)

Then in the OP of your new thread (Original Post, or Post #1, the post you're writing when you make the new thread), cut and paste the name of the thread you're forking from (i.e. - Forked from: History, Mythology, Art and RPGs).  Then write your post (i.e.: "This thread is for discussing Real World Alchemy and how to use it in RPG's.  Here's some links to get it started....")

Then in the thread you forked from, make a new post and say "Forked thread to _(cut and past name of new thread here)_"


...or something like that...


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Yeah- there _used_ to be a button for forking a thread, but now you have to do it the old-fashioned way again.


----------



## Ugulu the Barbarian

Alchemist stuff (mostly) Fork-ed over to D&D Legacy Houserules ... >.> 

Feel free to go back to whatever you were discussing before


----------



## Galloglaich

Can somebody link to the new thread?  I couldn't find it.

G.


----------



## El Mahdi

Here you go:

Real World Alchemist Class - Forked from: History, Mythology, Art and RPG's


----------



## Ugulu the Barbarian

Sorry about that ... Sometimes silly little stuff like that doesn't occur to me. 

So, over on Giant in the Playground, theirs a discussion on Deadliest Warrior. They say the show doesn't do research because the fight scenes are unrealistic. I say the actual fight scenes don't matter as that just a show which represents the numbers. What do people think about Deadliest Warrior. Is it an accurate portrayal of historical ... weaponry? Is it a good source for a historical campaign?


----------



## Matthew_

Basically, no. Some of its tests are more valid than others, and there obviously is great enthusiasm for the subject matter, but the primary purpose of the show is to entertain, not to educate, and that frequently shows through. It may well be that the broad conclusions that they reach are accurate within certain parameters, but from what I have watched of it I was left with the impression that it is a show prone to oversimplification and sensationalism. That is not particularly surprising, as most television history follows that paradigm, for obvious reasons.

As to its value to a "historical campaign", a lot depends on what you want out of it, but on the whole you would be better served getting hold of a well regarded book on the subject you are interested in. Mind you, I said pretty much the same thing on _Giant in the Playground_, so my opinion is hardly going to be much different from what was said there, which I think you are somewhat mischaracterising. The fact that the fight reconstructions at the end of each show were often ridiculous is emblematic of the problems with using the show as a touchstone for historical credibility, not the main issue.


----------



## Galloglaich

I would echo Matthews feelings about Deadliest Warriors. 

It's a neat idea and I wish somebody would do it a bit more seriously (along the lines of Mythbusters) but sadly it's really more of a 'cheap thrill'.. That said I really wanted to like it, I do watch it, it's a bit of a guilty pleasure, I enjoy seeing all the test-cutting and test-shooting, and they have even occasionally demonstrated some useful memes like the (to most people) surprising idea that ancient armor can actually stop bullets, or seeing a Sikh chakrum used successfully to cut through a big hunk of meat which is something I'd never seen before.

My assessment boils down like this, each episode of that show puts out a certain number of memes or ideas, lets say for sake of argument 10 memes per show. Of that number, typically 5 or 6 are at least partly wrong, and 3 or 4 are outright misinformation. It varies a lot depending which advocates they get for each side. For example, in each episode there is usually at least one weapon which is totally fake, like a 30 pound club, and most of the others are really cheap poorly made replicas. On one episode they might use halfway decent riveted mail for a test, on the very next episode they might use butted mail which did not exist in an Historical European context (except in modern Renaissance Faires). 

These 'experts' on the show are not actual academic or even amateur Historical Martial Arts experts but appear to be low level stunt or fight coordinators who specialize in this or that genre, and probably do most of their work for Sci Fi Channel. Some are better than others. So no, I personally wouldn't recommend it as a direct source for an historical campaign.

That said, there is a pretty WIDE gap between historical reality and the version of it portrayed in most RPGs. So maybe you could argue D.W. is somewhere in between a Teifling warrrior carrying a 9 foot spiked fanged bat winged swod and say, a real 16th Century Landsknecht. 

I would say if you wanted to use Deadliest warrior as a source, use it as a point of departure. If you see an archtype on D.W. that you hadn't heard of in an RPG before and are interested in, use some other sources for further research. I'd reccomend those Osprey military books as a good starting point, they are probably 80% or 90% accurate (roughly the opposite ratio of D.W.).  And you can find an Osprey Military book for practically every single kind of warrior who ever existed in history in any part of the world, from an Aztec Jaguar Warrior to a Knight Templar.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Aztec-Mixtec-Zapotec-Armies-Men-at-Arms/dp/1855321599"]Amazon.com: "Aztec, Mixtec and Zapotec Armies" (Men-at-Arms) (9781855321595): John Pohl, Angus McBride: Books[/ame]
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Knight-Templar-1120-1312-Warrior-Nicholson/dp/1841766704/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1279749216&sr=1-1"]Amazon.com: Knight Templar 1120-1312 (Warrior) (9781841766706):&#133;[/ame]

And some of them are even availble online for free on google books and other sources.

There are also many good videos out there such as Mike Loades "Weapons that Made Britain" and (though Matthew would disagree with me) Terry Jones various BBC documentaries, particularly his "Barbarians" and "Medieval Lives" series which I thought was quite good.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEMwcSGauY8"]YouTube - Weapons that Made Britain: The Sword (Part 1)[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-BQpfeKtWE&feature=related"]YouTube - Terry Jones' Medieval Lives- Outlaw 1[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ekbzbd0gOLs"]YouTube - Terry Jones' Barbarians - "Savage Goths"[/ame]


G.


----------



## Ugulu the Barbarian

Why! Why doesnt my sound work!! ... T.T

*Edit:* I wanna watch the video


----------



## Galloglaich

Get more mileage out of your old javelin with the weavers beam technique:

Arms & Armor

This is a trick which goes back a very long way, to pharonic and biblical times, and remained in use through the Renaissance.  

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

jdrakeh said:


> Thanks for this thread! While I don't think we'd agree on what constitutes verisimilitude or historical "realism" in games, I certainly prefer Low Fantasy inspired by historical personages and will find this thread quite useful




Do you have any interest in explaining whast you think constitutes verisimilitude or historical "realism" in games?

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

Cool videos on Chinese fencing, reconstructed from manuals like with the modern HEMA revival

Chinese traditional battlefield swordsmanship

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb5DH5w7rUg&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - 單刀法選 Chinese Longsword Ancient Techniques[/ame]


----------



## El Mahdi

I think an overlooked and underappreciated part of your Codex, is the section on how animals really fight and attack.  In that vein, I thought you might be interested in this:

Bull jumps out of ring, terrorizes crowd in Spain

With video, here.

I would have never expected bulls to be that _agile_.  Scary!


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

I've heard about this for years, but its kind of cool to SEE it: ancient statuary...in *PRISMACOLOR™!*


----------



## Wolf1066

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I've heard about this for years, but its kind of cool to SEE it: ancient statuary...in *PRISMACOLOR™!*



Eerie.  Second time in a week I've been directed to that site - once from Cracked.com and now from here.  The universe is obviously directing me to Roman statuary for some reason.


----------



## Galloglaich

El Mahdi said:


> I think an overlooked and underappreciated part of your Codex, is the section on how animals really fight and attack. In that vein, I thought you might be interested in this:
> 
> Bull jumps out of ring, terrorizes crowd in Spain
> 
> With video, here.
> 
> I would have never expected bulls to be that _agile_. Scary!




Thanks and ... yeah that's scary.  It reminds me of one of the Viking Sagas, this Viking army was tramping across Sweden, led by Ivar the boneless no less who is a semi-historical figure who apparently conquered almost all of England, and suddenly all these vikings are stopped by ... a cow.

A cow. There is a cow in the way and it won't let the army pass.

That was one of those ah, WTF moments?  The sagas are wierd that way.  Eventually Ivar shoots it with a bow and kills it.  I'm guessing this may have actually been an Aurochs Bull, which is a bit more formidable than "a cow"

Aurochs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

but it was still pretty hard to understand.... but it's actually part of  the reason why I love the sagas they are so laconic and quirky in the way that gives them the ring of a real anecdote.  The stories are never neatly tied up at the end... quite to the contrary. 

I wonder if the cow was made into fajitas later....?

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I've heard about this for years, but its kind of cool to SEE it: ancient statuary...in *PRISMACOLOR™!*





Wow that is super cool too bad they didn't show more statues, shows how much different things were than we picture them, I always kind of think of ancient Greece as all white, like in "Clash of the Titans", everybody dressed in white, with white marble everywhere, some white birds..... evidently they had color 

That archer is particularly interesting... looks like some of that is textile armor.

G.


----------



## Someone

I'm late to this thread, but anyway. I smiled when I saw Bernal Díaz del Castillo in the OP, since I read his book years ago: once past the fact that it's written in 5 centuries old spanish, it's quite long and the writing style isn't itself very engaging once you stop to think what the guy is actually telling it sometimes sounds like a fantasy book: the battles against all odds (he once says that there were so many enemies that they could have buried them just by throwing them dirt), his amazement when reaching Tenochtitlan, and all the adventures and sheer terror they had there, it's simply incredible.


----------



## Galloglaich

Yes it's an amazing story, told from a simple soldiers point of view, but, really absolutely amazing. Everyone who I gave that book to who read it was stunned by it. You don't have to sympathise with either side, Conquistadors or Aztecs, surely they were all horrible for the most part and many bad guys all round, but it's just such an incredible series of events, you can't help but be profoundly impressed by the courage and sheer elan, the scope of the events, the courage of those fighting on all sides. Part of the point of the OP was that books like that really blow away any fantasy novel ever written.

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

*Coroners records of dueling death-injuries 16th-17th Century*

Speaking of reading between the lines, Matt Easton of Schola Gladiatoria posted this on his site, I found it quite interesting.



> Interesting to see where the wounds were, how the people died from them, and that as far as the reports describe they mostly seem to have been clean kills, with victors walking away unwounded (as far as recorded):
> 
> 11 March, 37 Elizabeth.—Coroner's Inquisition-post-mortem, taken at St. Martin's-in-the-Fields co. Midd. on view of the body of Anthony Barnes late of the said parish yoman, there lying dead: With Verdict that, on the 9th instant, between the hours five and six p.m., a certain James Perte late of the said parish yoman was within the same parish, and making his way in God's and the Queen's peace towards St. Giles's-in-the-Fields, when the said Anthony Barnes with his rapier drawn made an assault upon him; that James Perte vainly retreated from his assailant in order to escape from him; and that in the affray thus forced upon him James Perte, fighting lawfully in selfdefence and for the safety of his life, with his sword gave Anthony Barnes in the right part of his belly a mortal wound, of which he then and there instantly died. G. D. R., 3 Sept, 37 Eliz.
> 
> From: 'Middlesex Sessions Rolls: 1595', Middlesex county records: Volume 1: 1550-1603 (1886), pp. 225-230.
> 
> 11 April, 37 Elizabeth.—Coroner's Inquisition-post-mortem, taken at St. Martin's-in-the-Fields co. Midd. on view of the body of John Langton late of the said parish cutler: With Verdict that, on the 10th inst. between three and four p.m., the said John Langton and a certain Michael Pinkney late of the same parish, exchanged insulting words and had an affray in a certain place of the said parish, Michael Pinkney fighting with a rapier and John Langton fighting with a staff; in which affray Michael Pinkney with his rapier gave John Langton on the upper part of his right arm a mortal wound, of which he died within a quarter of an hour.—On his arraignment, acknowledging the indictment, Michael Pinkney asked for the book, read like a clerk, and was delivered. G. D. R., 2 May, 37 Eliz.
> 
> From: 'Middlesex Sessions Rolls: 1595', Middlesex county records: Volume 1: 1550-1603 (1886), pp. 225-230.
> 
> 28 June, 37 Elizabeth.—Coroner's Inquisition-post-mortem, taken at Stepney co. Midd. on view of the body of Richard Achan late of London gentleman: With verdict that, on the 27th inst. between five and six p.m., the said Richard Achan and a certain William Carvell late of London gentleman, being together at Stepney in the "London fielde," exchanged insulting words, and drawing forth their rapiers made an affray with one another, in which affray William Carvell with his sword gave Richard Achan a mortal wound, of which he then and there instantly died. G. D. R., 3 Sept., 37 Eliz.
> 
> From: 'Middlesex Sessions Rolls: 1595', Middlesex county records: Volume 1: 1550-1603 (1886), pp. 225-230.
> 
> 14 February, 29 Charles II.—True Bill that, at St. Martins-in-theFields co. Midd. on the said day, George Ward and Charles Michartey, both late of the said parish, assaulted a certain Ulick Mack-Elligott, and that the said George Ward then and there slew and murdered the said Ulick Mack-Elligott, by giving him with a rapier a mortal wound in the right part of his belly, of which wound the said Ulick Mack-Elligott then and there instantly died. Charles Michartey was acquitted. Acquitted of murder, but found 'Guilty' of manslaughter, George Ward pleaded his clergy effectually: 'cre' resp' usq' p'x'=the branding was deferred till the next Gaol Delivery. G. D. R., 7 March, 29 Charles II.
> 
> From: 'Middlesex Sessions Rolls: 1677', Middlesex county records: Volume 4: 1667-88 (1892), pp. 75-81.
> 
> 15 April, 29 Charles II.—True Bill that, at St. Giles's-in-theFields co. Midd. on the said day, William Mayes alias Mace esquire and Thomas Witherley gentleman, both late of the said parish, assaulted one Gilbert Ward, and that the said William Mayes alias Mace slew and murdered the same Gilbert, by giving him with a rapier a mortal wound on the left side of his breast, of which wound he then and there instantly died; And That the said Thomas Witherley was present at the perpetration of the said felony, and encouraged and aided William Mayes to commit it. On 10th Oct., 29 Charles II., William Mayes and Thomas Witherley "po se" = put themselves Not Guilty on a jury. The bill exhibits no clerical note touching later proceedings in the case. G. D. R., 25 April, 29 Charles II.
> 
> From: 'Middlesex Sessions Rolls: 1677', Middlesex county records: Volume 4: 1667-88 (1892), pp. 75-81.
> 
> 5 July, 29 Charles II.—True Bill that, at St. Clement's Danes' co. Midd. on the said day, Samuel Reynolds late of the said parish gentleman assaulted a certain James Button, and with a rapier gave him on the left part of his breast a serious wound, half-an-inch broad and six inches deep, of which wound the said James Button has languished from the aforesaid 5 th July to the day of the taking of this inquisition, to wit, the 4th of September, 29 Charles II. On 4th Oct., 1677, Samuel Reynolds confessed the indictment, and was fined in the sum of thirteen shillings and four pence, which he paid to the Sheriff in court. S. P. R., 4 Sept., 29 Charles II.
> 
> From: 'Middlesex Sessions Rolls: 1677', Middlesex county records: Volume 4: 1667-88 (1892), pp. 75-81.
> 
> 10 January, 13 Charles II.—Coroner's Inquisition-post-mortem, taken at St. Andrew's in Holborne co. Midd., on view of the body of William Cropp gentleman, there lying dead and slain; With Verdict that on the 9th instant Edward Brydall late of the said parish gentleman was making his way up Chancery Lane towards High Holborn, when the said William Cropp, having a sword drawn in his right hand assaulted the said Edward Brydall and with the said sword wounded him in the left arm, and then said "Why do you not draw ? If you will not draw I will cut you in peeces," whereupon the said Edward Brydall drew his rapier in self-defence &c., and that in the ensuing affray the said Edward Brydall for the preservation of his own life gave the said William Cropp with the said rapier a mortal wound in his breast, of which wound he then and there died instantly. G. D. R., 15 Jan., 13 Charles II.
> 
> From: 'Middlesex Sessions Rolls: 1662', Middlesex county records: Volume 3: 1625-67 (1888), pp. 318-331.
> 
> 10 January, 19 Charles II.—Coroner's Inquisition-post-mortem, taken at St. Martin's-in-the-Fields co. Midd., on view of the body of Edward Jeremy there lying dead and slain: With Verdict that, on the 7 th inst. at St. Giles's-in-the-Fields, James Anderson late of the said parish laborer assaulted the said Edward Jeremy and with a rapier gave the said Edward Jeremy in the belly a certain mortal wound, of which he died on the ninth day of the same month, being thus killed and slain by the said James Anderson.—16 Jan., 19 Charles II.
> 
> From: 'Middlesex Sessions Rolls: 1668', Middlesex county records: Volume 4: 1667-88 (1892), pp. 6-12.
> 
> —January, 29 Elizabeth.—Coroner's Inquisition-post-mortem, taken at the parish of St. Giles-in-the-Fields, on view of the body of Humfrey Burchall . . . ., then and there lying dead: With Verdict that, on 7 January, 29 Elizabeth, between the hours eight and nine a.m., the said Humfrey Burchall in the parish of St. Dunstan-inle-West encountered Richard Sutton . . . .; and that the two walked together holding speech with one another (insimul ambulaverunt pariter confabulantes) to a certain close in the same parish, where Richard Sutton threw his cloak, sword and buckler on the ground, and spoke words to which Humfrey Burchall replied by saying, "But I will fighte with thee"; whereupon an affray was made between the two, Richard Sutton fighting with sword and buckler, whilst Humfrey Burchall fought with sword and dagger; in which affray the said Richard Sutton with his sword gave the said Humfrey on the fore part of his neck a mortal blow, of which he died; and that Richard Sutton thus slew Humfrey Burchall.—A memorandum, at the foot of the decayed and fragmentary bill, that at the Gaol Delivery of Newgate held on . . . ., Richard Sutton produced the Queen's pardon, and begged that it might be allowed to him. G. D. R., 5 April, 29 Eliz.
> 
> From: 'Middlesex Sessions Rolls: 1587', Middlesex county records: Volume 1: 1550-1603 (1886), pp. 169-175.
> 
> 16 January, 29 Elizabeth.—Inquisition-post-mortem, taken at the parish of St. Pancras, on view of the body of John Byttfield late of London gentleman, there lying dead: With Verdict that, on 15 January 29 Eliz. between the hours seven and eight a.m., the said John Byttfield and a certain Josias Raynescrofte . . . ., met in a certain field within the said parish called Foordes Close, and that after parleying together they then and there drew forth their swords and daggers, and made an affray with one another, in which affray the aforesaid Josias Raynescrofte with his sword gave the said John Byttfield on the fore part of his body a mortal blow, of which the said John then and there instantly died. G. D. R., 5 April, 29 Eliz.
> 
> From: 'Middlesex Sessions Rolls: 1587', Middlesex county records: Volume 1: 1550-1603 (1886), pp. 169-175.
> 
> 11 August, 21 Elizabeth.—Coroner's Inquisition-postmortem, taken at the parish of St. Martin-in-the-Fields, on view of the body of Robert Lenewood of London yoman, then and there lying dead: With Verdict that, on the 10th inst. between four and five p.m., the said Robert Lenewood, and a certain Henry Farmor late of Westminster yoman and James Blinckinsopp late of the same city yoman were together at a house called The Quenes Head in the aforesaid parish, when they interchanged contumelious words; Whereupon the three went out of the house into the common street near Charing Crosse, and the same Robert Lenewood drawing his sword advanced on Henry Farmor, who drew out his sword quickly; and that forthwith the two with their swords, between the aforesaid hours, fought with one another in the common way, and in the affray Henry Farmor with his sword gave Robert Lenewood on the left side of his breast a mortal blow, of which the said Robert then and there died instantly: And That James Blinckinsopp with his sword drawn was then and there present, abetting and encouraging the said Henry to commit the said felony, and in this way and no other the said Henry and James killed and slew the said Robert. At his trial Henry Farmer "po se cul ca null, petit librum legit vt clericus et del." G. D. R., 7 Oct., 21 Eliz.
> 
> From: 'Middlesex Sessions Rolls: 1579', Middlesex county records: Volume 1: 1550-1603 (1886), pp. 116-119.
> 
> 7 April, 14 Elizabeth.—Coroner's Inquisition-post-mortem, taken at Fynnesbury on view of the body of John Stocker late of London shomaker, there lying dead: With verdict that, on the same day between two and three p.m., the said John Stocker was in the street called Bysshoppes Gate Streate within the city of London, together with a certain John Tyson late of London yoman and John Keys also late of London yoman, when the same John Stocker and John Tyson exchanged insulting words, after which speech John Tyson, having business to do at a certain house called the Red Lyone at Islington with a certain William Peirson of Buckby co. Hertford yoman and a certain John Knighte of the same parish and county, went off to Islington; and That, seeing whither he was going, John Stocker with malice lay in wait, to intercept and assault the same Tyson on his return; and That afterwards being together in Fynnesbury Feild the two men fought together, John Stocker having a sword in his right hand and a dagger in his left hand, whilst John Tyson had a sword in his right hand, and in his left hand a cloak; and That in the affray, thus fought between them in Fynnesbury Feild, John Tyson with his sword gave John Stocker under the left side of his breast a mortal wound, of which he then and there died instantly. G. D. R., 22 May, 14 Eliz.
> 
> From: 'Middlesex Sessions Rolls: 1572', Middlesex county records: Volume 1: 1550-1603 (1886), pp. 73-78.
> 
> 21 January, 31 Elizabeth.—True Bill that, at Maribone co. Midd. on the said day, Charles Wrenne late of London gentleman assaulted Robert Ratclyff and with a sword gave him a mortal blow, of which he then and there died instantly. On his arraignment Charles Wrenne put himself 'Not Guilty' of the felonious killing called "manslater," but 'Guilty' of killing the said Robert in self-defence. And afterwards at the Gaol Delivery, made on 14 May 31 Eliz., he produced the Queen's pardon under the Great Seal of England, dated 3 May 31 Eliz., and prayed that it might be allowed to him. G. D. R., 11 April, 31 Eliz.
> 
> From: 'Middlesex Sessions Rolls: 1589', Middlesex county records: Volume 1: 1550-1603 (1886), pp. 182-189.
> 
> 7 February, 31 Elizabeth.—Coroner's Inquisition-post-mortem, taken at St. John's-strete co. Midd. on view of the body of Nicholas Fawcett, there lying dead: With Verdict that, on the 8th of January 31 Eliz. between the hours two and three p.m., the said Nicholas Fawcett and a certain Sidrake Vere, late of London gentleman, were in St. John's Strete "in publica platea ibidem" when they exchanged insulting words, and then drew forth their swords and daggers, and made an affray with one another, in which affray Sidrake Vere with his sword gave Nicholas Fawcett on the fore part of his breast a mortal blow, from which he languished till the 15th of the said January, when he died of it.—The unusual length of the time between the fatal result and the date of the inquest is noteworthy. G. D. R., 11 April, 31 Eliz.
> 
> From: 'Middlesex Sessions Rolls: 1589', Middlesex county records: Volume 1: 1550-1603 (1886), pp. 182-189.
> 
> 8 October, 31 Elizabeth.—Coroner's Inquisition-post-mortem, taken at Shepparton co. Midd. on view of the body of Robert Wroote . . . . there lying dead: With Verdict that the said Robert Wroote and a certain Robert Wigges, each being armed and fighting with sword and dagger, made on 3 September 31 Eliz. an affray with one another at Shepparton aforesaid, in which affray the said Robert received from his adversary's sword a mortal wound, of which he languished from the said 3rd of Sept. to the 24th of the same month when he died thereof.—A fragmentary parchment. G. D. R., . . . . 31 Eliz.
> 
> From: 'Middlesex Sessions Rolls: 1589', Middlesex county records: Volume 1: 1550-1603 (1886), pp. 182-189.​Martial Challenge - (Won/Lost/Played) - 2/1/3
> SCHOLA GLADIATORIA - http://www.swordfightlondon.com
> HEMAC - http://www.hemac.org
> 
> "Trust in Allah, but tie up your camel."


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## Galloglaich

Here are some cool videos of missile weapons in use shot with a high speed (300 frames per second) camera, which I blundered across on http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19403] My Armoury [/url]

What makes this particular interesting to me is you can see the physics of the weapon, notice the way the thong (the 'amentum') imparts a spin to the javelins for example.


Javelin with fixed amentum [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmPSKu6-TMM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmPSKu6-TMM[/ame] 

Javelin with detaching amentum [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtCDobXr9Gg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtCDobXr9Gg[/ame] 

Sling, showing axial-spun release of biconical bullet [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJjXXnDSB4s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJjXXnDSB4s[/ame] 

Staff sling [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reEaUOTU1KI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reEaUOTU1KI[/ame] 

Atlatl and dart [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ik6_bRSmPJk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ik6_bRSmPJk[/ame] 

Archery [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TTI2DrfSLg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TTI2DrfSLg[/ame] 

There is a lot more on slinging there as well.

here are the weapons which were used:







G.


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## Galloglaich

I wrote a review of my friends new book, thought I would share it here I really liked it, I think anybody into Medieval history would dig this.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Wayward-Apprentice-Jason-Vail/dp/1452876819]Amazon.com: The Wayward Apprentice (9781452876818): Jason Vail: Books[/ame]



> I've never read an historical novel in quite this exact genre. This is Medieval Noir, a window into a world Centuries ago amid the crime and intrigue in rural 13th Century England. This is not "ye olde Medieval Kingdom" you know from Sci Fi channel films or a typical romanticized Medieval novel, it's a LOONG way from your friendly neighborhood Renaissance festival. This is a real place with a very different feel than the world we live in today, or with the cliches we know and love, at once familiar and suprisingly alien in it's detail. A place with an unusual combination of harsh laws and swift justice are carried out in French to an English speaking courtroom, yet where crime and mayhem can lurk just around the corner. A place where nobody misses Sunday mass, but men go to the public bath house to dally with 'bath girls' over a couple of beers. Where theft can get you hung, but outlaws lurk in every forest. Where a warm meal can be had in a roadside tavern, and the beggar in the street is a bitter man, once a warrior.
> 
> The protagonist, Stephen Attebrook, is a widower and a veteran soldier and nearly a cripple himself, with half his foot missing from an encounter with a Moorish warrior in Spain. Shell shocked from the death of his wife, he approaches his new job without great enthusiasm or hope. He has come into the position of assistant Coroner, which had a different meaning in 13th Century England than it does today. His job is to certify the cause of death of everyone who dies in his district, to verify the legal status, which can have serious legal and political ramifications. This is not a Medieval CSI, autopsies are unheard of in this era, and disinterrments are rare, but Stephen reluctantly performs one when a case takes an unexpected twist. Somewhat against his will, he is drawn into the dark secrets of his new home town, and eventually entangled in a lethal Political struggle which overlaps the personal dramas, lovers spats and petty jealousies of his neighbors. Hired to investigate a murder whose youthful prime suspect has a tragic past in certain respects similar to his own, it's not long before Stephen has alarmed some dangerous people and finds himself having to fight for his life. But fighting is one thing Stephen, a hardened veteran, is capable of if not eager to indulge in, and the deadly brawls which break out along the lonely roads of this place have a sense of danger and verisimilitude that not only reveals the author (who also wrote a book on Medieval knife fighting techniques) as a trained martial artist, but also has the unpredictable feel and fierce immediacy of a real street fight. Despite being maimed, Stepheen proves able to hold his own, and being a Crown officer does not prevent him from doing what is necessary to cover up the bloody results of attempts to silence him.
> 
> Like Philip Marlowe or Sam Spade, Stephen doesn't have a rigid puritanical morality, but tries to do the right thing in a world he does not expect to be fair. As we get to know the man better, we learn that beneath his humble exterior Attebrook is a man of many skills. He will need them all to survive the hornets nest he has stirred up.
> 
> I really enjoyed this novel and I suspect (I hope) we will see more of Stephen Attebrook in the future. I can easily see this turning into a series. If you want to spend a little time in a medieval world as your ancestors may have actually experienced it, I highly recommend picking this one up.




G


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## Galloglaich

I found a really good website on medieval firearms, here:

Hand Gonnes & Matchlocks


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## Dannyalcatraz

Do you dare dress your Elf in flares?
Does your Goliath wear cutoffs so he'll look more like the Incredible Hulk?
Do you want your Tiefling Paladin to look like Dennis Hopper in _Easy Rider?_

Here's your historical precedent!  Jeans, baby!


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## Wolf1066

It's really good when you find information on hew the "ordinary people" dressed and lived.  So few people over the years have deemed them important enough to record and we wind up with most of our information being skewed in favour of the Noble or monied classes.

Obviously not everyone could afford to be dressed in velvet, silk or linen, but most the people recorded for posterity could...


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## Galloglaich

Check out this crazy East European style re-enactor combat, steel weapons, full contact

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLCLljsihzk]YouTube - Битва наций - Хотин (02.05.2010)[/ame]

Fighting to metalica
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyS4q_5r56M]YouTube - Бугурт 21х21, Битва наций, Белоруссия - Украина[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTMUrWUAnDU&feature=related]YouTube - Bohurt-Russian, Belarus, Ukrainians vs Polish knights battle[/ame]



It's a little more hard core than your friendly neighborhood SCA


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## El Mahdi

Seriously Cool! Reminds me of an event I saw in England once (except for full contact with weapons). It was basically a game of capture the flag, wearing full armor (plate and mail) and played a bit like american football (full speed tackles and dives)!

Those videos would make a great example of what melee tourneys looked like. It would work for "A Game of Thrones" fans also.

Very Cool!


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## Votan

Galloglaich said:


> I wrote a review of my friends new book, thought I would share it here I really liked it, I think anybody into Medieval history would dig this.
> 
> G




It is a pretty good book and well worth the read.  I was surprised at the quality and the attention to detail made Medieval England come alive.   However, I was a little unclear (given that the entire novel occurs in September 1262) why the month and year were at the top of every chapter.


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## Galloglaich

Hey glad to hear you like it.  I told the author.  Apparently he is doing two more in a series, I'm looking forward to reading the next ones.

G.


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## Galloglaich

Well I have some semi- bad news.  I think this long lived thread (has it really been almost 2 years?  That is hard to believe and a little bit scary) may be about to come to an end at long last.  

I got in a little tiff with a moderator on another thread (about realism in RPGs, go figure) and from experience, I know those have a tendency not to go very well.  I won't back down when I think I'm in the right.  

So thanks to everyone who participated in the thread, I think it served it's purpose.  I've enjoyed the discussions.  My links below provide you a way to get in touch with me if I get banned, I'm also active on another thread on the Giants in the Playground forum which you can probably find easily enough (I have the same user name over there).

In case it's a false alarm, in the immortal words of Gilda Radner "Never Mind!"

G.


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## Galloglaich

found a really cool new HEMA video from Gladiatoria, demonstrating Lichtenauer tradition (15th Century Holy Roman Empire) for dagger, messer and buckler, messer, pollaxe, and longsword

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TzdtyMC7ek]YouTube - Fencing with five different medieval weapons[/ame]


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## Matthew_

Good stuff. I liked the dagger work, but long sword sparring is hard to beat visually!


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## Galloglaich

Yeah I agree... I think part of that is because we have been (as a community) studying "German" longsword pretty intensively for about 12 years now, and the fundamentals are pretty well understood at this point.  When it comes to more advanced techniques we are still sanding off the rough edges though.

Messer and dagger have probably only had serious systematic study for around maybe 5 years, sword and buckler has only come up to speed (of people understanding the basics) in the last 3 years or so, and Poll Axe is still kind of in it's infancy in terms of interpretation.  Those fencing manuals can be pretty counter-intuitive and it takes a lot of people working really hard to begin to get a grip on them.

G.


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## Galloglaich

a really interesting look at how Europeans were percieved by Japanese and Chinese artists in the time of first- contact

Res Obscura ☽ ▩ ☼: Europeans as 'Other'

Res Obscura ☽ ▩ ☼: Europeans as 'Other,' Redux












http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bOmMbyE0UnI/TAxaoTV7BUI/AAAAAAAAAH8/CwrZnn-jEPU/s1600/port2.jpg


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## Galloglaich

Imagine this as a scenario for a fantasy film.  In a Medieval Kindgom, a bandit has been captured and convicted of a felony.  The laws of this Kingdom are harsh, his sentence is death.  But he is offered a deal: fight his former accomplices on behalf of the Crown, and sentence will be commuted.  The man fights judicial combats against several local bandits, and slays them.  He is spared the gallows and put on the payroll with title of "Approver", a duelist who fights for the Kingdom.  

As an "Approver", he is accompanied by another man called a "Magister", and the two travel to a neighboring county, challenge known criminals there, and kill them in judicial combat.  Then they continue to travel the countryside, slaying the wicked, and bringing justice to a Wild land.

That is not a fantasy story, it's historical fact.  The Medieval Kingdom in question was England, the year was 1160 AD, the bandits name was Evrard, and records of his payments have been found by researchers.



> In the payment of Evrard the approver and for his contract for three eyres through England, 24 s., 6 d. Also for his arms.  And payment to Peter of Saint-Lô, who taught him, 56 s., 8 d.  And also to the same Peter, 3 s.



-Great Roll of the Pipe for the Sixteenth Year of Henry the Second, Pipe Roll Society (Old Series) vol. 15, p. 34.

It is not certain what the precise status of the 'Magister' was.  Several 'Approvers' were  accompanied by a 'magister' whom scholars originally took for a kind of  manager or a Crown prosecutor.   But some of the cases show that the 'magister' was a  former champion rather than an attorney, which means they may have actually been a travelling fight-instructor.  Like something right out of a Samurai movie.

Special thanks to Ariela Emena for this research.

*Professional duelists in Medieval Europe *

So we know that most of the fencing manuals surviving today are for Judicial combat.  But the fencing manuals we have today are from the 14th Century or later, (almost all of them are from the 15th Century or later) we don't know much of the early history of the European Martial Arts or it's role in Judicial combat, if any, during the Medieval period.

Roland Warzecha, a fencing instructor and researcher from the group Hammaborg in Germany, posted an interesting description of another type of professional duelist in Medieval Germany called a "Kemphe".  I'll quote him here in his own words:



> The first school teaching sword and buckler in England is recorded as  early as the late 12th century. At least from the thirteenth century  onwards 'Schirmen' (which is sword fighting) was often tought by a  'schirmmeister'. He might have held an according office at a lord's  court (though possibly only temporarily) or he could have been hired to  train a contender for judicial combat. A schirmmeister was apparently  held in much higher esteem than a hired kemphe  (champion) who fought in a contender's stead. It is interesting to note  that some regulations require the accuser to pay for his training  himself while the accused party was to be provided with according  training and weapons by the authority in charge of the law suit. To this  end, a fencing master would have had to be hired by the authorities.
> I  would like to add that the hiring of a schirmmeister to prepare a  fighter for judicial combat is well recorded by Master Talhoffer himself  in the 15th century. Though in his case the fighter was also the  employer.
> The training and preparation for an ordeal by combat was called a lertag and usually lasted six weeks.







_This may be a portrait of the famous Renaissance fencing Master Hans Talhoffer himself._

Working as an 'Approver' or a 'Kemphe' was dangerous business, Judicial Combat was no joke.  Illustrations in the 15th Century manuals make that abundantly clear.









It was not unusual for the Church to participate in Judicial combat either. Roland Warczecha pointed out a couple of incidents which exist in period records:


> in one incident, following the murder of an abbot, the monks were  preparing themselves to fight out the strive. In another case, an abbot  had hired a champion to fight for his cause. It actually appears that  the clerics where rather forcing to settle the matter by judicial combat  because they considered their case too weak to win the law suit in a  different way. The 'kemphe', however was eventually killed in the fight and the abbot lost his case.



Nor was it unheard of for Women to fight in Judicial combats.  But more about that later.


----------



## Love of Awesome

I haven't seen this one yet anywhere on here, so i'll just make my contribution. If it has been done than just tell me. 






George Washington 1732-1799 (67 years old) LG
Farmer, Soldier (Officer), Politician, General of the continental army, helped to lead the United States to victory against the British, and was the first president of the United States.
George Washington - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Galloglaich

He wouldn't make the list for a few reasons (mainly because he is too famous, he's a household name) but not many people know Washington was a remarkable soldier on a personal level in that he was considered amazingly lucky in battle not to be killed.  He apparently survived having several horses shot out from under him during the French - Indian war and had bullets shoot through his hat and his coat on more than one occasion, in spite a career of warfare he lived a long life.

G.


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## Galloglaich

On another forum, someone asked: 



RationalGoblin said:


> Quick question; in the 10th (so 900s) and 11th century, how did the decentralized Frankish state work? Particularly military-wise, what was the relationship between king and vassal in military matters, the type of troops (and their equipment) and so forth?




*So Who Were the Franks*

The late Frankish kingdom was a complex society, not really feudal in the 10th Century so much as still mostly tribal.  Due to the relative paucity of surviving records we actually know far less about them than we do about the Romans or the later Medieval world.  But we do know a few things I can review briefly here.





Charles Martel vanquishes the Moors at Tours in 732 AD

The Frankish top leadership (the Carolingian Dynasty) was very strong in the 8th Century from the victory of Charles Martel at Tours until the early 9th Century when Charlemagne died.  During Charlemagnes reign the King of the Franks also became the Emperor of 'Rome'.  After Charlemagnes death the Empire was split into three parts and the Frankish kingdom went into a period of decline through the 9th Century under a series of weak leaders with names like Charles the Fat, Charles the Simple and Louis the Stammerer.  France was ravaged by the Vikings and fragmented by internal dissent well into the 10th Century.  Meanwhile the other two branches of the Empire, Burgundy / Italy and Germany, went into a different direction, sealing the break up of the Frankish Empire into several parts by the late-9th Century.  Finally from the early 11th Century the Capetians took over starting with Hugh Capet, which was a new stronger dynasty leading into the Medieval Kingdom of France.  So that is the top leadership, complex enough to be sure, but that is actually the simplest part.

Probably the most important fact to keep in mind about the *Franks* is that they were not an ethnic group per se, or a tribe, but *a large multi-ethnic tribal confederation*.   It was the same for all the other famous Barbarian 'tribes' of the Dark Ages.  

So the original Franks included the *Salii, Sicambri, Chamavi, Bructeri, Chatti, Chattuarii, Ampsivarii, Tencteri, Ubii* and *Batavi *(Germanic tribes ranging from Germany to Flanders / Holland), one branch of the federation was dominated by the Salii which is why they were known as the Salian Franks.  The name Franks probably means 'Free men' which is typcial of such early Germanic federations (the Allemani, which is still the French word for Germans, means literally _Alle - Mani _ or "All men").  As the Frankish tribes conquered Gaul, they heavily intermingled, intermarried and integrated with the *Romanized Gauls* and picked up many of their habits and gradually, their language.  As the Franks expanded they also absorbed other tribes including the  *Saxons, Alans* (Iranian / Persian people), the *Taifals *(also Iranian), and the *Alemanni*.  This has a lot of significance on the Frankish military. 

Frankish tribal law was of the traditional Germanic type, governed by independent "lawspeakers" (called _rachimburgs_) who spoke at the tribal assembly similar to the Scandinavian 'Ting' and would make legal rulings but did not have direct authority.  Judgments were carried out by jurors and tribal Chieftains were elected by the assembly (though the most powerful men were usually elected).  Gradually Roman / Oriental style monarchy took hold inside the confederation, which was unified under the Merovingian 'Sea-Kings' and these lawmen were replaced with royal magistrates who were part of an administrative class called  _centannae_ or _antrustiones_ (more about them a bit later) who played a similar role, but with loyalty to the King rather than the tribe (somewhat similar to Islamic Qadi).





Frankish Sword

In terms of kit, while the Frankish confederation started out iron-poor, like many Germanic tribal groups, only more so.  But by the 10th Century they had actually become one of the greatest iron producing people in the world.  Frankish ('Ferrengi') armor and swords were among the most sought-after in the East by this time.  So their armies were generally well equipped by the standards of the day, better than most late-Roman armies probably.

Command would break down by Dukes, Bishops, and tribal Chieftains (who would bear similar titles but with less formal meaning).  At any one time depending on the strength of the King from 20 -80% of these Princes would fight on the side of the Kingdom.  You would also have of course many smaller regional disputes going on between princes.

Political and military organization overlapped, by the 10th Century where you are focusing, the Frankish kingdom was much more sophisticated and organized, but still also pretty decentralized and multicultural, quite complex but you can break it down into four zones.  









The City of Carcassone, France, today





Beziers, France, today

In parts of Flanders and the West of France there were many Gallo-Roman trading towns which were almost like smaller versions of Medieval city-states.  These walled towns had their own militias made up of a special class of armed burghers called centannae who were called up under what the records refer to as 'local levies' which were well trained and well armed and equipped, like the urban militias of the later Medieval world, mostly as heavy infantry.  

Feudalism wasn't very well established in Frankish lands by this point but in Central and Southern France there were some truly feudal fiefdoms based around Latifundia, traditional Roman villa - plantations worked by serfs (pagani), ruled over by Bishops or Dux (Dukes).  There were also certain higher nobles such as the Bishop of Paris and the Patrician of Burgundy who held special ranks and often acted as important military leaders with their own heavily armed (cavalry) retinues.  These places had Romano-Gallic cavalry but little infantry (unless the 'General levy' was called in which case even serfs '_pauperes_' and '_inferiores_' would be armed and pressed into service, but that was very rare).  

Around the Rhine and the tribes were more barbaric and organized as traditional Germanic light infantry equipped similarly to the Franks of a much earlier time.  

Finally the Alans and Taifals were settled in certain areas of France.  These Iranian / Saromatian nomads fought as light or as heavy cavalry.  In fact there is some argument that they may have introduced the culture of heavy cavalry to France.  A Taifal uprising is mentioned in France in 565 AD by Gregory of Tours, so they were still considered a distinct ethnic group by then.  The zones controlled by the Central Asians would have been aristocratic areas since  they were a foreign people ruling over local tribes.  They seem to have assimilated quickly a Taifal Saint was canonized in the 6th Century.





So in the 10th Century, the urban militias of Paris and towns like Nantes, Bordeaux, Poitiers, Toulouse, Tours etc. would be heavy infantry called  _centannae_, armed with spears, shields, javelins, darts, swords and axes, and backed up by archers.  Typical soldiers would wear helmets and many would have mail, others probably textile armor.





The Romano Gallic cavalry was probably armored, at least with a textile armor and a shield, probably with a byrnie as well, and would also carry lance, javelins, darts and a sword.  A few would carry bows like Roman Sagitarii





These Cataphracts are kitted out in Asian style, the Alans in Gaul would have probably been clothed and equipped somewhat more similarly to the locals.





The Saromatian (Alan, Taifal) cavalry would be split into light cavalry, some of whom may have had bows, most armed with javelins and darts and light lances, and heavy cavalry with real warhorses some of whom may have had armored horses, body armor (possibly including scale or lamellar armor as Spyrit showed above) axes, light maces, lassos, and lances.





This image depicts Franks from the 5th or 6th Century, Franks in the 10th Century would probably have a more 'medieval' appearance in terms of dress and hair etc., but the weapons were similar.





Re-enactors armed with Frankish kit, including angons.


The Germanic tribes would fight primarily as light infantry armed in the more traditional Frankish manner, with the Angon / Francona (a heavy armor-piercing spear probably derived directly from the Roman Pilum) the Francisca, a throwing axe, plus swords and axes.   






The chieftains would be armored with mail and helmets, and would be accompanied by an elite bodyguard called a Commitatus or _Antrustiones_.  These men would be heavily armed and well mounted but many would prefer to fight as heavy infantry as they did so famously under Charles Martel.

The king himself had both heavy infantry _centannae_ and a large bodyguard of _Antrustiones_ called _comes palatii _and _comes stabuli _ (palace guards and state police, respectively, some of whom were aristocrats but some of whom were recruited from tribesemen or serfs, creating a new class which came to be called _ministerials _in the Holy Roman Empire, many ministerials eventually became the founders of the fighting Orders like the Teutonic Order), plus archers and probably Sarmatian cavalry as well.  

The best source for the early Franks is Procopius, the best source for the Medieval Franks is (in my opinion) Hans Delbruck.  The Osprey books are also, as always, useful particularly for the individual kit.

Amazon.com: History of the Wars, Books V and VI: The Gothic War (Dodo Press) (9781406566550): Procopius, H. B. Dewing: Books

Amazon.com: The Barbarian Invasions: History of the Art of War, Volume II (9780803292000): Hans Delbruck, Walter J. Renfroe Jr.: Books

Amazon.com: Medieval Warfare: History of the Art of War, Volume III (9780803265851): Hans Delbruck, Walter J. Renfroe Jr.: Books

Amazon.com: Warfare and Society in the Barbarian West 450-900 (Warfare and History) (9780415239400): Guy Halsall: Books

Amazon.com: The Age of Charlemagne (Men-at-Arms) (9780850450422): David Nicolle, Angus McBride: Books

Amazon.com: Carolingian Cavalryman AD 768-987 (Warrior) (9781841766454): David Nicolle, Wayne Reynolds: Books

G.


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## Galloglaich

*The Fencing Fraternities*

This is an interesting and amusing first hand account of a sort of 'peoples fencing tournament' in the 16th Century of the type put on by the fechtschules or fencing fraternities of Central Europe.  Just goes to show you, right when you think you won and are ready to go to the pub, somebody shows up and splits your nose  for you.  This kind of an event was an anachronism in the second half of the 16th Century and it also gives us a glimpse into an earlier time, during the rise of the fechtschules over 100 years earlier in the 15th.

Source blog:
Kampf Kunst: What exactly were the Fechtschulen?



> In 1583 another Fechtschulen was held this time in Troppau, (Silesia)*, in the present day Czechoslovakia. Hans Ulrich Krafft , on his return home, from his service in the "East", Turkey, where he was jailed in Bankrott for 3 years, published his memoirs "Reisen und Gefangenschaft" Travels and Captivity. He tells of a earlier Fechtschulen held in Honor of the Marriage of Prince Hans Friederich of Liegnitz, to a sister of Prince Ludwig of Wurtemberg, however the event was not as Lavish an affair as described by the Poet Frischlin's earlier Wedding Celebrations of Prince Ludwig. The Fechtmeister was a Swabian, from Augsburg, by the name of Hans Mamhoffer. Whose Brother Elias was known to Hans Krafft, through their servitude together in Tripoli and in Syria. *
> There were more MarxBruder present than Federfechters and they were eager to Fight! With Trumpeters in the Town Square, all the people had their seats with windows thrown open to see this spectacle. Through the streets went men with Armfulls of Swords, Rappiers and Staffs, There were two Royal Spears full of hanging Dussacks, and what's a Fechtschule without them!!!)
> 
> All the Parties put their Capes and Swords in a pile. The Fechtmeister was holding onto a wooden Halberd. The trumpets blared, Just then the Old Prince Georgen zum Brigg, who is considered a Father of the Fatherland*, marshalled in the event and together with the Bishops of Preslaw, a pair of Reichs Tallers were offered as the Prize to every winner, so long as Blood was drawn, the loser should live with his shoddyness in defeat. The youthful Dussack fencers got out of control at one point and had to be Halted by the Fechtmeister. So great was their thirst for 2 Gold Tallers (Thaelers, worth about 2 gulden or gold ducats each), but yet they brought little blood and so little Gold was awarded to the Dussack fencers. The Rappiers, Staffs and Longswords however, proved very bloody, and much Gold was awarded.
> 
> The best was a Marxbruder , a Schlosser with his strong Handworks and his Stork from above, he landed strikes on their heads.  He was awarded two gold tallers and was ready to go to the Pub, just then a short, little Hatmaker, from Nerlingen (Swabia) came at him with Longsword, and gave the Schlosser, the Spitze or point. the Fechmeister halted the fight instantly and said " Landsman, whats with this Reckless and wild Start? have you not seen, that he who is without Art only stabs at the Head. The reply was: Ich Lieg noch nitt. or "Sorry, I don't lie still".
> This response could be compared to the earliest known Handwritten German fechtkunst history and is attributed to Liechtenauers statement in 1389: Wer do Liegt, der ist tot, wer sich Ruret, der lebt noch. Who stays still is dead, who moves still lives.* As no blood was drawn, the match continued with the little Hatmaker, splitting the Marxbruder's Nose in two! For all to see. So, off to the Pub He went!! Then there came an accidental retalliation, a Marxbruder, while Staff fighting, put out an eye of a Federfechter! And the sight of how high the clear, eye fluid went was horrible to behold.*




G.


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## Wolf1066

Galloglaich said:


> This is an interesting and amusing first hand account of a sort of 'peoples fencing tournament' in the 16th Century of the type put on by the fechtschules or fencing fraternities of Central Europe.  Just goes to show you, right when you think you won and are ready to go to the pub, somebody shows up and splits your nose  for you.  This kind of an event was an anachronism in the second half of the 16th Century and it also gives us a glimpse into an earlier time, during the rise of the fechtschules over 100 years earlier in the 15th.
> 
> Source blog:
> Kampf Kunst: What exactly were the Fechtschulen?
> 
> 
> 
> G.



All good fun.  Sadly ruined for us today by OSH regulations


----------



## Galloglaich

Speaking of tournaments and fechtshules, this is an excellent promo video just put out by Fechtschule Gdansk, a modern Renaissance fencing club from Poland (in Gdansk, formerly Danzig, which you can see a nice drawing of what it looked like in the 15th Century in the opening shot of the clip)

These guys are some of the best HEMA practitioners in the world today and most of this footage is from a live-steel tournament they recently had.  You will see Axel Petterson of GHFS Sweden in there quite a bit as well, another one of the worlds best longsword fencers from one of the top schools.  This video really gives you an idea how far HEMA has come in the last ten years.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7aXtzf7-Lk&feature=email&email=comment_reply_received]YouTube - Fechtschule Gdańsk 2010[/ame]

It will be interesting to see where we are with it by say, 2015, we may even be ready for the zompoc.

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

Well, I guess it wasn't Swiss after all...

Ancient Roman Multitool Trims, Cleans and Kills


----------



## Galloglaich

Making Ice in the desert

Yakhchal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

I've read that the Egyptians did something similar, but can't find any record of it- nice to see someone else in the ancient world was that clever...which could also be the explanation for me not finding such data on the Egyptians.


----------



## Galloglaich

Just wanted to share this, regarding HEMA-istas not fighting hard, here is a video of a buddy from my fencing club Henry Rhodes, fighting in the steel longsword tournament at "Swordfish" in Sweden last week 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kJyRVtG4e0&feature=related]YouTube - Swordfish 2010 - Steel Robert vs Henry 2nd bout[/ame]

This also gives you an idea of how fast real fencing was, and also of the effect of armor on a sword... we fight in these bouts with a minimum of protective gear, a fencing mask, strong gloves, a gambeson just like they wore beneath mail in the old days, and a few light pads.   And yet there were very few injuries at this event, one broken finger, a few minor gashes and a bunch of bruises.  Nobody missed work the next week.

Now compare with this 

YouTube - NYHFA's Channel

and this 

http://www.thearma.org/Videos/NTCvids/Thrusts_on_Maille_Pt_I.mp4

Put that together and here is the conclusion I come to:

1) With correct technique, a longsword can easily cut a person to pieces without a huge effort (those tatami mats are designed to simulate human limbs, and there are plenty of nearly identical tests also on video done on animal carcasses and pork shoulders, sides of beef etc. I've done quite a bit of  that myself)

2) Real historical type Mail armor will however completely neutralize the cutting effect of swords and will stop thrusts as well except to the extent that the point can get inside a link (which only works for very narrow point swords)

3) The sparring we do in little more than a gambeson indicates that the impact effect of cuts from a sword is a negligible factor compared to the horrific effects of a cut with a sharp edge or a thrust with a sharp point.  

4) The solution to dealing with an armored opponent was to cut _around _the armor or to use specialized armor-piercing weapons.  There is ample forensic evidence for the former and a preponderance of evidence for the latter which remained ubiquitous throughout European history.

5) Therefore the whole basis for the SCA heavy-combat philosophy about mail armor is obsolete and should be revised.


This does not however mean that swords were obsolete.  Head to toe armor coverage was extremely rare historically and did not exist at all except for a tiny number of specialized troops until roughly the 1300s, when it became merely rare for a while in Europe until roughly 1520 AD when armor use began to decline due to cannon and the rapid increase of the scale of warfare with massed guns and pikes.

G.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

> This does not however mean that swords were obsolete.



According to some tests I've seen, a well-placed blow from a sword, even against a foe in full armor, can deliver enough force to render a limb nerveless, opening the foe to more lethal blows, and in rare cases, could initiate a hydrostatic shock wave strong enough to disrupt cardio-pulmonary functions.

Sure, weapons like axes & maces could do that better, but swords tend to have a few more inches of reach, and can slip into exposed gaps.  They're...more flexible, in a sense.


----------



## Galloglaich

I think if swords could stop your heart from impacts you would be seeing a lot of deaths in HEMA right now, there are something like 10 or 12 major tournaments per year currently and most people wear little more protection on the chest than maybe a bit of plastic and the gambeson traditionally worn under a mail coat, some heavy gloves and a fencing mask which is considerably inferior protection (especially on the sides and top of the head) to a real historical military helmet.  Look at the tournament video I posted above, those guys are fighting with steel swords, if the video quality was better you could see the sparks (you can see them quite clearly in some others).  Dozens of people fought over and over in that event, and as you can see they aren't holding back in their cuts.  And yet all they get is a few very minor injuries, bruises and small cuts.   If they were using sharp swords of course there would be arms and legs all over the floor, but the swords are blunts, but realistic like a real sword not some 6 pound re-enactor crow-bar (which I think may be the source of the legend about swords and hydrostatic shock).

When using a sword against a fully armored opponent, you use half-swording techniques to thrust-only.  This is what you see in the judicial combat manuals from the era of Plate Armor, of which we have a few dozen surviving.  I don't think any of those manuals depict a sword being used to cut somebody in armor.

I think the real advantage of a sword is in cutting unprotected flesh, first and foremost, it's better than an axe or a mace in an even fight because it's very dangerous / unpleasant to grab a sharp blade compared to a wooden haft, and you don't need momentum to cause injuries with a sword.  And yes they are more nimble than other hand-weapons as well.  People don't understand how quickly and easily a sword fight can turn into a wrestling match, the edge and point of a sword helps prevent that.  Of course a blunt sword can break your hand or your forearm or even your skull, but not as easily as you would think.

Swords during the heydey of armor were often of the extremely pointy variety (Oakeshott XIV, XV, XVIIII etc.) and this was so you could pierce through gaps in armor with the point, and maybe pierce the armor itself with a half-sword thrust though I've yet to see that done in a test.  But your principle weapon against an armored opponent would be a lance, a halberd, an ahlespeiss, a war-hammer, a mace, or a dagger.

A fully armored fighter would only face a certain amount of their peers (fully armored opponents), typically the biggest threat on the battlefield would be from being swarmed larger numbers of lower ranking warriors would would be protected with partial armor or no armor at all.  This is where the sword becomes a truly excellent sidearm and quite literally a lifesaver.

But cutting through armor?  Killing armored men with hydrostatic shock?  I really don't think that is realistic.

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

Dannyalcatraz said:


> According to some tests I've seen, a well-placed blow from a sword, even against a foe in full armor, can deliver enough force to render a limb nerveless, opening the foe to more lethal blows, and in rare cases, could initiate a hydrostatic shock wave strong enough to disrupt cardio-pulmonary functions.
> 
> Sure, weapons like axes & maces could do that better, but swords tend to have a few more inches of reach, and can slip into exposed gaps.  They're...more flexible, in a sense.




Also I don't think an axe will cut through mail any more than a sword will, unless it has a back-spike specifically made for armor-piercing.

G.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Galloglaich said:


> Also I don't think an axe will cut through mail any more than a sword will, unless it has a back-spike specifically made for armor-piercing.
> 
> G.




True, but even without a back-spike, the flared head & overall shape of an axe is a bit better at hooking limbs and the like.

And the fact that it's mass is concentrated at the head means it's center of mass is way out there too (as opposed to the hilt or uniform distribution in swords), meaning you deliver a lot of force at that curved point of impact...more than a sword of similar mass...and that translates into a better chance of inflicting damage via hydrostatic shock.


----------



## Votan

Galloglaich said:


> 5) Therefore the whole basis for the SCA heavy-combat philosophy about mail armor is obsolete and should be revised.




How would you suggest this being done?  Strikes on the unarmored parts are lethal?


----------



## Galloglaich

Dannyalcatraz said:


> True, but even without a back-spike, the flared head & overall shape of an axe is a bit better at hooking limbs and the like.
> 
> And the fact that it's mass is concentrated at the head means it's center of mass is way out there too (as opposed to the hilt or uniform distribution in swords), meaning you deliver a lot of force at that curved point of impact...more than a sword of similar mass...and that translates into a better chance of inflicting damage via hydrostatic shock.




Yes that's true, the 'grappling from a distance' factor is major, I also think the pointy parts of axes (the top and bottom of the blade) are significant.  Axes used for combat seem to have either very small axe-heads (good for concentrating force) or very wide with long pointy ends which I think are for piercing.

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

Votan said:


> How would you suggest this being done? Strikes on the unarmored parts are lethal?




SCA heavy combat, as I understand it (it's been a while since I talked to any SCA people about this) is based on the premise of a 10th or 11th Century warrior wearing a mail hauberk with an open-faced helmet and possibly some shin-splints. They have a theory that you should hit hard enough to do damage _through_ the mail, which I think is unlikely.

So in theory every fighter on the field, whether they are wearing a full milanese harness or a bare minimum helmet, kidney belt and gloves, is supposed to be wearing mail hauberk etc. 

So yeah, I would say if they are holding fights under that assumption, you should have to go around the armor to score hits, the face, the lower legs, the forearms. They could armor up those spots.

Or if they want to pretend everyone is unarmored they could just wear the armor and fight more or less as they do today.

Or they could assume harnischefechten (everyone is armored, like in a 15th Century battlefield) and allow grappling, half-swording, throws, etc. It can be done, there are re-enactment groups in Eastern Europe who do full contact battles with steel weapons and include punches kicks, throws etc. There is a group at the Ren Faire in Louisiana which does basically kick-boxing with SCA style rattan and padded weapons and they don't get any serious injuries.  I know the guys we trained some of them in fencing.

Ultimately I don't really care how SCA runs their battles, I realize it's challenging making fighting rules for battles involving thousands of people, I just don't want them to keep disseminating half truths about historical combat to rationalize how they want or need to structure their events.

G.


----------



## Votan

Dannyalcatraz said:


> According to some tests I've seen, a well-placed blow from a sword, even against a foe in full armor, can deliver enough force to render a limb nerveless, opening the foe to more lethal blows, and in rare cases, could initiate a hydrostatic shock wave strong enough to disrupt cardio-pulmonary functions.




I wonder how practical such hard swings are in real combat.  It seems like if it were to be dodged then the person swinging the weapon might be seriously unbalanced (or else it would suggest a very limited number of angles of attack).  

I do note that blunt weapons tend to be unpopular as melee weapons when alternatives are available (excepting when armor is very heavy) suggesting that blunt force trauma might be the hard way to go?  

I am not sure and I admit that I can't imagine a safe way to practice with real maces or hammers to find out.


----------



## Galloglaich

Flails are even harder to do, even padded ones are dangerous.

On the other hand...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLCLljsihzk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLCLljsihzk[/ame]

G.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Votan said:


> I wonder how practical such hard swings are in real combat.  It seems like if it were to be dodged then the person swinging the weapon might be seriously unbalanced (or else it would suggest a very limited number of angles of attack).
> 
> I do note that blunt weapons tend to be unpopular as melee weapons when alternatives are available (excepting when armor is very heavy) suggesting that blunt force trauma might be the hard way to go?
> 
> I am not sure and I admit that I can't imagine a safe way to practice with real maces or hammers to find out.




According to _some_ documentaries, things like hammers, maces and axes were the preferred weapons to use against heavily armored foes, while swords were moire favored against lesser foes (both in terms of armor AND status).  Some have even posited that many artistic depictions involving heavily armored knights in battle with _swords_ were inaccurate- that most were actually using maces, etc., and were depicted with swords to denote their status (swords being a status symbol).


----------



## Votan

Dannyalcatraz said:


> According to _some_ documentaries, things like hammers, maces and axes were the preferred weapons to use against heavily armored foes, while swords were moire favored against lesser foes (both in terms of armor AND status).  Some have even posited that many artistic depictions involving heavily armored knights in battle with _swords_ were inaccurate- that most were actually using maces, etc., and were depicted with swords to denote their status (swords being a status symbol).




That seems plausible.  With a heavily armored opponent, it would be tough to actually cut them so blunt force would be the only way to go.  Plus, the heavy armor would mean you could risk throwing a heavy swing.

On the other hand, I suspect the medieval knight was an anomaly in history.  I note that solider in the 1800's (Napoleon's era or the US civil war) used sabers and bayonets in melee so they seem to have reverted to type when armor got light again.  

In a similar sense, is see a lot of swords, spears and axes in Viking images but few blunt weapons (am I looking at a poor sample?).  Or Greeks/Romans had medium armor but used either pointed or edged weapons.  

So maybe it was just the case that the Knights got so well defended that unusual tactics made more sense?


----------



## Votan

Galloglaich said:


> Flails are even harder to do, even padded ones are dangerous.
> 
> On the other hand...
> 
> G.




Yikes.  There is no way that is safe , , ,


----------



## Galloglaich

Yeah, Eastern Europe, what are you gonna do.... but it does make a point.  You'll notice they are using not just swords, but also axes, even halberds and pole-axes.  Sure the weapons are blunt but not very, there are plenty of sharp edges.  And I don't think anybody died in that even though I'm not going to stake my life on it....

Still, it does show you how effective armor really is and was.  I mean the reality is in the late 15th Century they were making bullet proof armor which, from the figures I've seen, could stop a .357 magnum at close range.  They could certainly stop pistols of their day and even an arquebus ball.  Armor worked, that is why they wore it in spite of the enormous expense.  Even dedicated armor-piercing weapons were not automatically effective against armor.

I think, however, that it's going a bit too far in the other direction to suggest that warriors, professional and otherwise, didn't use swords back in the heydey of armor.  It's quite obvious that they did, that swords were in fact the ultimate prestige weapon and not just for fashion.  Swords show up prominently in records, they are among the first things required for a muster, they show up in large numbers in excavated battlefields, they are all over period art and not just art depicting rich and famous people.  Every armed mercenary in any drawing I've seen had some kind of sword, a messer or a falchion or a baselard or a katzbalger, (or a longsword which seemed to be quite ubiquitous in spite of being difficult and awkward to carry around when not in use.)

All this stuff is a bit more nuanced than our modern minds want to admit to, we tend to think of things in very black and white terms, either a sword worked or armor worked, since they worked against each other one seems to have to cancel the other out.  From what I've learned in the last ten years of plunging into the history of swords and historical fencing, they both worked extremely well.  






_Guy on the left, in good shape, the guy on the right, having a very bad day_

The fact is though that very few people ever had total 100% armor coverage, and the best way to kill somebody in full armor was to use an armor-piercing weapon.  Since armor-piercing weapons were in many ways (in every way except for armor-piercing, generally speaking) inferior to swords, wearing armor generally allowed you to use a fast, deadly and versatile sword and forced your opponents to a disadvantage with a less ideal weapon.  If you faced another fully armored opponent your sword was still effective using half-sword techniques and / or your would draw your dagger or pull that mace out of your belt..   but the sword could do the job against any opponent, if you had the right skillset.

G.


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## Galloglaich

Some harnischefechten techniques, to give you an idea how they actually used to fight in armored duels 500 years ago

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsh0aQTIg9g&feature=related]YouTube - Some techniques from Hans Czynners treatise[/ame]


----------



## Jon_Dahl

I'm sorry if someone has already mentioned him, but I think one of the greatest hand-to-hand-combatants is left unmentioned:

*Dioxippus*, 4th century B.C. LN
Greek martial artist, Olympic Champion, duelist.

Dioxippus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Marcus Claudius Marcellus*, 268–208 BC (60 years old). LE
Roman elite soldier, military leader, politician, priest

Marcus Claudius Marcellus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Galloglaich

Those are fantastic examples, I'll definitely add them to the permanent list.  The truth is there are really thousands and thousands of amazing warriors like that in the historical record, but I never get tired of learning about new ones (and I hadn't heard of either of these men).

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

Here is a real fun sword video, something rather different

*
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaEZZ43WrTQ]YouTube - Spin Around[/ame]*


----------



## turnip

Galloglaich said:


> Flails are even harder to do, even padded ones are dangerous.
> 
> On the other hand...




This video was spectacular....and DANGEROUS looking!

And I would also like to state that I'd find watching cats sleep absolutely _riveting_ if it was soundtracked to music like that.


----------



## Galloglaich

Similar vid from another angle (with no music, but you can hear the sword which is cool)

YouTube - ryrlen's Channel


----------



## Galloglaich

Spear fighting with slow-motion detail

http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en&v=wii9cXNp5M4&gl=US


----------



## Galloglaich

*A mess of messers*

I posted this to Myarmoury, I thought some people here might be interested as well

So I think there was an interesting technical / historical discussion emerging about Messers in the Makers and Manufactuters forum, maybe we can continue that here.
I have been interested in attempting to classify these weapons myself and try to determine their role in society and warfare but have found it challenging. 
One point of confusion I ran into is that there is a whole family of messer-like weapons which seem to be related, in that they share the following features:

A long single-edged cutting blade
A long handle like a knife handle
A nagel

So I've noticed there seem to be what look like at least 6 or 7 distinct types of the 'messer'' family that I've tentatively identified. This mostly applies to the 15th Century when the earliest currently known messer fencing manuals appeared. These namess come from German terms I've seen in historical documents as well as on modern German language auction sites, and these various types all overlap somewhat, which I think has caused some of the confusion around this class of weapons.

The *Hauswehr *is a long, broad knife with a nagel which was used as the primary home-defense for a farmer or in some cases, a prestige weapon owned by a burgher in Renaisance HRE or Poland. This weapon is shaped like a grossmesser only smaller, with a 12"-16" blade length. I think some of these were made fancy like these from Tods Stuff...




or more simply like this antique




But in both cases had some utility as a tool while being primarily intended as a weapon. Like a bayonett for a 20th Century soldier.

The *Baurenwehr *is a similar long, broad knife with a nagel which was used as a work-knife by farmers and rural laborers of some distinction or social standing. I think this played a role similar in many respects to what a machete does in Central America today, both as a tool and as a prestige weapon for a certain social class (poor people of some means, essentially). This weapon is shaped like a grossmesser or sometimes is more pointed a lot like an Afghan "khyber knife", except with a nagel. Same size as a Hauswehr. 



The *Rugger* was a hunting knife similar to a Baurenwehr, but specifcially designed for killing and / or skinning animals. These could be larger, average maybe a bit bigger or broader in the blade..





The *Coltel* (I think related to the Italian term Colatessa and later, possibly to the Cutlass) was also a hunting knife but with a very broad blade, which often did not come to a point, maybe rounded off or squared off. It has a nagel. I think this one is specifically for skinning and butchering animals rather than for killing. Theere are also some of these which look a lot like a bowie knife. Very similar weapons were also used in Burgundy and Northern Spain.








German auction sites refer to these types as ruggers or hauswehrs but I have come to think of them as a distinct subtype


The *Grossmesser* is the term I specifically apply to the shorter fighting messers, 16-28" long, sometimes with broad blades, such as you see in Durer, sometimes with narrower blades like in Lechkukner . These usually seem to be single-edged with no false-edge.





The *Langenmesser* is for a longer fighting messer, 28"-36" long, some of these are very long. They usually have a large nagel sometimes a clamshell type, often without quillions but sometimes big quillions like in Talhoffer. They also seem to have some with broad blades (in artwork) and some with quite narrrow blades (antiques at auction sites)

The *Kriegsmesser* is of course the infamous very large two-handed big war-messer, with a partial false edge and up to 48" long, though most seem to be a bit shorter around 42"-44" or so.








The Kriegsmesser also overlaps with the large *Hungarian Infantry Saber* (don't know of any period name for this weapon), which is very similar two handed weapon but more curved and with no partial false edge, and with the *Schwiesersabel*, which is a slender Swiss messer with a complex hilt.

And then you have the Falchion which is a completely different animal I think, and also has many distinct subtypes.

G


----------



## Jon_Dahl

Galloglaich said:


> Those are fantastic examples, I'll definitely add them to the permanent list.  The truth is there are really thousands and thousands of amazing warriors like that in the historical record, but I never get tired of learning about new ones (and I hadn't heard of either of these men).
> 
> G.




Well you didn't add them to the permanent list, but it's fine. However, here's another one:

*Viriato*, (? – 138 BC) LG
Freedom fighter, tribal warrior, national hero
_"It seemed as if, in that thoroughly prosaic age, one of the Homeric heroes had reappeared."

_Viriathus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Galloglaich

Jon_Dahl said:


> Well you didn't add them to the permanent list, but it's fine. However, here's another one:
> 
> *Viriato*, (? – 138 BC) LG
> Freedom fighter, tribal warrior, national hero
> _"It seemed as if, in that thoroughly prosaic age, one of the Homeric heroes had reappeared."_
> 
> Viriathus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




I didn't?  I'm not sure what you mean by that.....?


Anyway Viriathus is on the list already, he's one of my favorites.

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

This is a bit ponderous but entertaining and full of true facts

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqC_squo6X4[/ame]


----------



## Galloglaich

Found a good new source for costs of weapons and armor in the 15th Century.

This book
Katalog Wydawnictwa "Ibidem" - Tadeusz Grabarczyk, Piechota zaciężna Królestwa Polskiego w XV w.

Has this table in it.
http://www.historycy.org/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=10705

Which a guy on another forum translated for me.  I made a new table with translated prices and names (and prices in both Prague Groschen (Pg), and German Kreutzer (Kr) which are worth 60 Kreutzer for 1 Florin or Gulden:






This is a little different from my last source and brings up some interesting questions.  

Ok so, there are three swords issued here, one for 32 Groschen for horse archers, one for one for 72 for a lancer, and one for 120 in the 'very nice' category, also for a lancer.  

Interestingly swords are only for cavalry here, infantry only get 'sabers' (probably messers) but more about that in a second.

So I'm guessing the sword for a horse-archer may be a strait Polish sword called a pallasch, or possibly a kanzer which is something like an estoc.  But these were not really common until later if this is the late 15th Century.  The top level sword, I would suspect, is a longsword or possibly just a very nice quality pallasch, perhaps with some hand protection (15th Century wouldn't be a basket-hilt like some later pallasz but it could have a knucklebow and a clamshell hilt like like this one





or this





There are two crossbows, one for footmen (48 Gr.) one for horsemen (60 Gr.).  The more expensive one for horsemen is, I bet, a "German winder" or cranequin crossbow.  That is about the only type of military crossbow you can use on horseback because you don't have to span it with a stirrup.  A small but very heavy crossbow with a steel or laminate / composite prod like this one .









The other one is probably what the Germans called a knottlearmbrust, a stirrup crossbow with a thick solid yew prod, like this one 

There are three types of sabers, the infantry one for 8 Gr is, I bet, a messer or a Hungarian infantry szalba like this one you see both on period images of Czech troops.   The saber for light cavalry may be a Ruthenian (Cossack) shashka 






The very expensive one for the lancer could be a Turkish Killij, or a Swedish heavy saber, or a a Karabella, or a really nice quality Polish or Hungarian Szalba with a complex hilt, like this one:






.

The cheaper horses are probably a schweik or a zhmud, the more expensive would be coursers or destriers.  Expensive!

I was also impressed with how expensive the brigandine was.  But that jibes with my other numbers too.  For some reason a brigandine was considerably more expensive than a basic cuirass.  Maybe because it was more flexible and less bulky?


----------



## Galloglaich

*Medieval Forensics*

I'm going to post a few links on this subject, here is the first on the famous Wisby battlefield in Gotland in Sweden, from the late 14th Century

Wisby 

Churchmouse: Battle of Visby Burials, Sweden.

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

Here is a good article about forensics from the Battle of Towton, during the War of the Roses in the 15th Century 

The Bloody Cost of Medieval Warfare

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

Front gate to viking land (through the 20 mile long wall that separated Denmark from Christian Europe)

'Sensational' Discovery: Archeologists Find Gateway to the Viking Empire - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International


----------



## El Mahdi

Galloglaich said:


> Front gate to viking land (through the 20 mile long wall that separated Denmark from Christian Europe)
> 
> 'Sensational' Discovery: Archeologists Find Gateway to the Viking Empire - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International




Very Cool! I'm currently prepping a campaign set during the English Anarchy. I'll have some adventures for the group to get out into the rest of Europe a bit. That might be an interesting place to have them travel through...

Man, you always find the coolest historical stuff!


----------



## Galloglaich

Some backyard tests from a 450 lbs draw  "arbalest" (really a small ballista in style if not power) made out of a leaf spring from a minivan, shooting very large  bolts.  Sorry for some of the cheesy aspects of the video, the  penetration seems to be quite good though. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMFtSIvbnPk]YouTube - Great crossbow Arbalest Ballista[/ame]

The video clearly demonstrates the viability of a  heavier bolt than some modern experts have stated were possible.  The leaf-spring prod  is of course very inefficient as a crossbow prod, it's designed to  provide suspension for a minivan not to shoot bolts, and I think this  actually offsets the longer stroke of this experimental weapon over a period arbalest at least somewhat.  Though this is  nowhere near anything like a serious experiment and there are so many  variables it is tricky to make definitive conclusions, but clearly that  is a heavier bolt than an average arrow, and though  the bolt itself is also obviously crude and very inefficient (both in overal in shape and in the shape of the fins or vanes) compared to period designs, it's efficient enough  to perform relatively well, better tha most other similar experiments  I've seen. 

My best information (including from Alan Williams book and from some  data I've seen from Royal Armouries and the Lubeck Symposium) are that  1200 lb draw was more likely to be the mean for power of an historical  weapon, unfortunately at this point we can only speculate how those weapons would perform because nobody has any (at least published) tests that i know of.  This video gives a kind of titilating hint at best.

In my current opinion the power of this weapon in the video is actually significantly _less_  than a much smaller windlass arbalest from the 15th or 16th Century or  even a very small cranequin arbalest such as were used by mounted  marksmen from the 15th Century and by hunters into the 17th and 18th  Century. 

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

Hey thanks for the e.p. guys 

Here is some more interesting stuff I ran across today.

this is creepy, they wore these back in the day... these are real military masks worn by horsemen. imagine some guy wearing that while he comes at you with a lance. Might be a good idea for painting a fencing mask. They are also just interesting as art objects, and windows into the hideous Roman soul...







some antiques,


































































Here are cool ones for a female fencer


----------



## Galloglaich

This is the website where I found most of those, with more info about the archelogical finds 

Military Equipment: Decorated Parade Armour


----------



## Galloglaich

Merry Christmas from Krampus!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrbrgA7co8g]YouTube - Absoisos-Pass wagrain (krampus).mov[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8X0oYKyfr8]YouTube - Gangal 1[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CqMHvwfIho]YouTube - Wuschz'n Pass 2003[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmu6L2KzKXQ]YouTube - Re: Krampus attack in Silandro (South Tirol)[/ame]


----------



## Momeeche

Holiday Bump. Kaloyan of Bulgaria led an interesting life.


----------



## Galloglaich

Some more about our friend from Towton:

The battle of Towton: Nasty, brutish and not that short | The Economist


----------



## Galloglaich

And another article on Scotts in Iceland:

Unreported Heritage News: Did the Scots visit Iceland? New research reveals island inhabited 70 years before Vikings thought to have arrived


----------



## Galloglaich

Momeeche said:


> Holiday Bump. Kaloyan of Bulgaria led an interesting life.




Ah yes... an interesting character indeed.  This period of Bulgarian history is worth learning more about.  I'll add him to my (offline) list.

G.


----------



## Momeeche

Galloglaich said:


> Ah yes... an interesting character indeed.




I'm living in Bulgaria these days, working for the Peace Corps, and the Second Kingdom is an interesting point in Bulgarian history.


----------



## Galloglaich

Sounds like a fascinating gig.  Would you care to elaborate a bit about Bulgaria today or the history of the 2nd Kingdom?  Have you been able to do any touristic exploration or is work taking up all of your time?

G.


----------



## Momeeche

Galloglaich said:


> Would you care to elaborate a bit about Bulgaria today or the history of the 2nd Kingdom?




I need to be careful. The Peace Corps wants us to be very careful about what we say and where we say it. I can say the Second Kingdom seems to be a time Bulgarians look upon with pride when they talk about their history, and Veliko Tarnovo and Plovdiv are very interesting cities.


----------



## Matthew_

Galloglaich said:


> Front gate to viking land (through the 20 mile long wall that separated Denmark from Christian Europe)
> 
> 'Sensational' Discovery: Archeologists Find Gateway to the Viking Empire - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International



An interesting find, to be sure, but the accompanying article seems a bit misleading to me. As far as I am aware, it is fairly well understood and accepted that frontier marking walls, such as those built by the Chinese and Romans, were primarily methods of controlling trade, rather than intended to keep the barbarians out (though, obviously, it would limit livestock theft and other forms of raiding to some degree). It would seem this Viking version had pretty much the exact same function, which is not too surprising.


----------



## Galloglaich

Our Swedish friends sword-cam video is going viral 

180,000 hits now and growing
Spinning A Camera On Sword End » Viral Viral Videos
you cut me deep shrek you cut me real deep | MetaFilter
Quick, Now Run Somebody Through!: Video Camera Taped To The End Of A Sword - Geekologie

I know most of the idiots still thnk this is LARP, but hello world, this is HEMA.  

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

Matthew_ said:


> An interesting find, to be sure, but the accompanying article seems a bit misleading to me. As far as I am aware, it is fairly well understood and accepted that frontier marking walls, such as those built by the Chinese and Romans, were primarily methods of controlling trade, rather than intended to keep the barbarians out (though, obviously, it would limit livestock theft and other forms of raiding to some degree). It would seem this Viking version had pretty much the exact same function, which is not too surprising.




Well, it seems to be a cultural / military barrier, in all three cases. I wasn't as aware of the trade angle until reading the speigel article, (can you elaborate on that?). But as much as we tend to think of them as the same today, the Scandinavians and Germans are quite different and were even going way back when the Danevirke was originally built (when that was precisely isn't sure, maybe during the Migration era, maybe earlier) and I think the Danes definitely wanted to keep the Germans out as they often continued to need to do for the next thousand years.

During the migration era obviously a big wall is a especially a plus. It won't keep roaming armies out but it will make it trickier and more dangerous for them to cross (especially trying to get back across it with loot). 

I think the distinctions between Norse and German got much more marked after Charlemagne converted the Saxons ... the brutal nature of that conversion also apparently alarmed the (still pagan) Danes. As we know back then pagan Europeans and Latinized Christian Europeans were basically oil and water. Somewhat less so for the Irish for example who while Christian were not entirely latin in their culture until later in the Middle Ages, but there was clearly a kind of 'ethnic' hatred on both sides. 

Similarly the Romanized Britons were "oil and water" with the Picts and other wild tribes of the far north, as were the Han Chinese from the various nomadic barbarians of Mongolia and Siberia. They couldnt' understand each other and couldn't come to some peaceful long term stable arrangement - the Monarchy / State and the tribal societies just don't mix.  So there needed to be a wall.

Can you elaborate on what you mean about the roll of walls and trade a little bit? What they said in the article seemed to make sense though it's the press not an academic writer so precision or context is frequently off...

EDIT: I should add, I thought it was interesting that they had a brothel right next to the front gate. Truck drivers are truck drivers even 1000 years ago I guess....

G.


----------



## Momeeche

Can you please point me to some decent info on Greek weapons and technology during the time of Alexander?


----------



## Galloglaich

This is the best single popular history resource I know of, it covers all of Alexanders major battles in some detail and provides a lot of helpful illustrations, maps etc:

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Warfare-Classical-World-Encyclopedia-Civilisations/dp/0806127945]Amazon.com: Warfare in the Classical World: An Illustrated Encyclopedia of Weapons, Warriors and Warfare in the Ancient Civilisations of Greece and Rome (9780806127941): John Gibson Warry: Books[/ame]

For a more serious Academic analysis, Hans Delbrucks work Warfare in Antiquity: History of the Art of War, Volume I still stands tall among most of the analysis I've read:

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Warfare-Antiquity-History-Art-War/dp/080329199X]Amazon.com: Warfare in Antiquity: History of the Art of War, Volume I (9780803291997): Hans Delbruck, Walter J. Renfroe Jr.: Books[/ame]

The Osprey books are also pretty good, and some of them are scanned on google books now.  

This is also a very good forum for all kinds of Classical warfare, obviously mainly focused on the Romans but they cover really everything about that era including Alexander.  Any question you can't find answered here can't be answered:

• Index page

And finally, there is a researcher / living history guy named Matthew Amt who is very well informed on Greek stuff (a bit pre-Alexander, but informative nonetheless), he built his own linothorax and aspis shield, he has some good info here:

Matthew Amt's Greek Hoplite Page

Hope that helps,




G.


----------



## Galloglaich

Irish stick-fighting, in Gaelic, with subtitles (from Irish TV)

TG4 - Irish language television channel - Teilifis Gaeilge - 1 Hour Documentaries - Na Chéad Fight Clubs (P1)


----------



## Matthew_

Galloglaich said:


> Well, it seems to be a cultural / military barrier, in all three cases. I wasn't as aware of the trade angle until reading the speigel article, (can you elaborate on that?). But as much as we tend to think of them as the same today, the Scandinavians and Germans are quite different and were even going way back when the Danevirke was originally built (when that was precisely isn't sure, maybe during the Migration era, maybe earlier) and I think the Danes definitely wanted to keep the Germans out as they often continued to need to do for the next thousand years.
> 
> During the migration era obviously a big wall is a especially a plus. It won't keep roaming armies out but it will make it trickier and more dangerous for them to cross (especially trying to get back across it with loot).
> 
> I think the distinctions between Norse and German got much more marked after Charlemagne converted the Saxons ... the brutal nature of that conversion also apparently alarmed the (still pagan) Danes. As we know back then pagan Europeans and Latinized Christian Europeans were basically oil and water. Somewhat less so for the Irish for example who while Christian were not entirely Latin in their culture until later in the Middle Ages, but there was clearly a kind of 'ethnic' hatred on both sides.
> 
> Similarly the Romanized Britons were "oil and water" with the Picts and other wild tribes of the far north, as were the Han Chinese from the various nomadic barbarians of Mongolia and Siberia. They couldnt' understand each other and couldn't come to some peaceful long term stable arrangement - the Monarchy / State and the tribal societies just don't mix.  So there needed to be a wall.
> 
> Can you elaborate on what you mean about the roll of walls and trade a little bit? What they said in the article seemed to make sense though it's the press not an academic writer so precision or context is frequently off...



Not sure I can do much better than wax lyrical about what I remember of my undergraduate courses, and I think that it might well be mixed up in the "grand strategy of the Roman Empire" discourse [i.e. whether they had one or not]. From what I remember, it used to be thought that Hadrian's Wall (and to a lesser extent the Antonine Wall and the Danube Frontier) were literally barriers expected to protect the Roman territories in a very literal way from the barbarians, much as is depicted in the often unintentionally hilarious _King Arthur_ film, and that the Great Wall of China was pretty much the same sort of thing.

Of course, fortified castles and towns of the ancient and medieval ages did not command avenues of march like their early modern and modern counterparts, lacking as they did artillery, which is one of the chief points R. C. Snail made many years ago in his book _Crusader Warfare_. The defence "in depth" once envisioned for the Holy Land of fortifications simply did not reflect the reality of the situation, and much the same can be said of the grandiose claims once made about Roman static defences. The relatively modern realisation that medieval warfare was conducted largely through raiding, sieges, and the avoidance of battle contrasts somewhat with the more frequent battles we hear about in the ancient world, but there are still lessons to be learned there.

I am waffling a bit, probably because a lot of this is much vaguer in my memory than I would like to admit! However, what you get with a big wall marking territorial boundaries is much the same as with any other ancient or medieval fortification, which is to say something that a) Makes a huge statement about your power to friend and foe alike, b) Reduces the effectiveness of low scale raiding, cattle rustling and the like, c) Is a barrier to large scale military action, if not insurmountable d) Lets you control to a large extent who passes peacefully back and forth between the divided territories.

The manpower required to defend Hadrian's Wall is said to have been ten to fifteen thousand, which was about 5% of the total under arms (if I remember rightly estimated at 300,000), so a significant number, but realistically capable of defending 70+ miles of wall from a concentrated effort? Maybe, I guess you cannot rule anything out completely, but would it really be more militarily effective than a field army? Hard to countenance, just so much that could go wrong with a static defence, too easy to cut sections off and so on. Militarily, what the wall more likely provided on that scale, with its set back forts and garrisons, was an early warning and informational transferral systems that would allow a field army to be mustered at the right point(s).

But dealing with full scale invasions would be by far the exception, and not at all the day-to-day purpose of the wall. Apart from discouraging and blunting raids and immigration from beyond the wall, it allowed the Romans to control what went from the Roman side to the non-Roman, and vice-versa, and at what cost. Roman coinage flowed from the centre of the empire out to the frontiers where it paid the armies, and then out into the wild where it was too often lost to the civilised world. The profit from trade (and the forts would themselves have operated as trade centres) must have been significant, but control of trade also made it theoretically possible to restrict the sale of Roman munitions to the barbarians. Charlemagne had to rely on the obedience of his subjects measured against their greed for gain when he forbade the sale of Frankish swords to the enemy, but the Romans could more easily and actively restrict the transport of such items (indeed, the military commanders should have been particularly invested in ensuring the barbarians remained militarily inferior in terms of technological scale).

Now, I could well be wrong about all of the above, as I say it has been a long while since I actually studied the subject, but a quick look at the _Wikipedia_ entry for Hadrian's Wall suggests to me that I am probably not too far off the mark in my (certainly by now much altered) recollection. Might be worth looking into the subject further next time I am in the library, if time allows (or I suppose I could browse the internet, or maybe just start a thread or do a search at RomanArmyTalk).



Galloglaich said:


> EDIT: I should add, I thought it was interesting that they had a brothel right next to the front gate. Truck drivers are truck drivers even 1000 years ago I guess....



Ha, ha. Yeah, well, I guess if the gate was part of a military outpost (and I can only suppose it must have been) it would be surprising if there was not a brothel in the vicinity!


----------



## Galloglaich

On another forum, somebody asked about the plausibility of a medieval or pre-industrial society resisting a more sophisticated or high tech invader in a guerrilla war.  Most people thought it would be unlikely in a Feudal society.

But of course, Ye Olde Days weren't like a Monty Python skit or a Ren Faire.  There are several very good Medieval examples of extended guerilla warfare against odds which are hard to imagine could be worse.

The Russians were partially conquered by the Mongols in the 13th Century but continued active and passive resistance, in spite of routine massacres on a huge scale.   In one exchange in 1380 the Russians wiped out an army of 150,000 Mongols and Turks from the Golden Horde, two years later in 1382 another Mongol Army under a different general besieged Moscow and killed 24,000 people after it surrendered.  But the Muscovites remained 'difficult'.  This went on and on for another 100 years until the Mongols finally backed down rather than face another nasty fight with the Russians during the reign of Ivan III  (father of Ivan IV 'the Terrible', the first independent Russian Czar).

In Hungary there was similar resistance to first the Mongols, then the Ottomans.  Specifically Skanderbeg and John Hunyandi are worth looking at during the latter period.  And of course Vlad Tepis in Romania.

In Lithuania they had to deal with the Mongols on one side and the German Teutonic Knights and Livonian Knights on the other side.  One particularly good example is Samogitia.  This tiny spit of land, a Primeval forest called *The Grauden*, was invaded over 300 times in the course of 200 years.  The invaders were repeatedly caught in ambushes and wiped out, including the infamous Crusading Order of the Sword Brothers which was broken in 1239 and the Livonian Order which was crippled in 1259.  The Baltic people who lived there were called the Samogitians, sort of Baltic Vikings.  They never surrendered, in spite of being sold-out by their own allies in Lithuania 3 times.  They were the last European people to convert to Christianity, in _1413 AD_!!, and retained their own form of government called a 'Tribal Eldership' through the 15th Century.  They were basically left alone to mind their own business until the 19th Century.

Lithuania in general is a good example of Guerilla resistance because they were facing higher technology with much lower-tech, the Germans had plate armor, armored warhorses, giant warships, cannon, crossbows, and guns; the Tartars had horse archers and all kinds of special weapons, as well as a truly modern command and control capability.  But the Lithuanians defeated them both using mostly light cavalry armed with javelins and spears, and all kinds of tricks like ambushes and hornets nests and running people into bogs and deadfalls, i.e. clever use of terrain.

I have also held forth probably enough on here already about the Bohemians, who also fended off both the Germans and the Mongols successfully and fought any number of guerrilla and open war campaigns to defend their land.

Another good example in Europe that most people never heard of is the Dithmarshen, a swampy region in Saxony (northern Germany).   They resisted something like 7 or 8 full scale invasions from Denmark and Germany between the 11th and 16th Centuries, for example an army of Saxon peasants won a major battle there in 1500 AD, defeating several thousand heavy cavalry and mercenaries.  

There was a nearly identical situation in nearby Frisia.  Look up Gross Pier.

People have already mentioned Scotland and Wales upthread, Ireland could be added to that in spite of being conquered they performed an on again off again guerrilla campaign from the arrival of the Normans until the time of Oliver Cromwell, again using very simple low tech weapons like darts and javelins and heavy infantry in chainmail armed with two-handed swords and axes against sophisticated Elizabethan English armies which had guns and heavy cavalry etc.

The Swiss of course, founded their State on exactly this type of resistance.  

Another region of a great deal of this type of activity was the Pyrennes mountain range between France and Spain, going back to the Bronze Age, there were many examples where lower tech or less well organized people fought off more sophisticated and better equipped invaders, going back to the Romans.   

Basically there are hundreds of historical examples, if I had more time I'd list a few more but I gotta run.


----------



## Galloglaich

Here is kind of a cool axe-fighting video from Hammabourg, these techniques are from historical sources

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k8ybRyD4eU]YouTube - hammaborg, peter falkner, mordaxt, 63v[/ame]


----------



## Galloglaich

HEMA inspired stage combat, from Bohemia
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPfLZFHcNv4]YouTube - ?ehart - long sword and other historical weapons[/ame]
I particularly like the dussack work.


----------



## Galloglaich

Us HEMA-istas like the ones in slow-motion because you can make-out the techniques, but it is also fun sometimes to see them at full-speed, or even a bit more than full-speed like in this excellent demonstration from a Czech HEMA group.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc]YouTube - Zwerchhau, absetzen, nachreissen - longsword techniques training[/ame]

I haven't seen anyone sparring with quite that degree of precision and speed yet, but we have come much closer to that in the last few years.  If you squint your eyes a bit you can now start to see what blossfechten really looked like circa 1470.  Very scary, brutal.  I want to see this in a movie.

G.

EDIT: Slovakian not Czech

I'd also present this as refutation to any SCA people who think HEMA practitioners don't hit hard enough... this is speed with precision.


----------



## Matthew_

Very cool videos. I enjoyed that last one especially, but all three were worth watching.


----------



## El Mahdi

Yeah, that last one was truly outstanding.  It amazes me just how much seeing the real thing puts the lie to so many myths and preconceptions about medieval combat...especially as compared to "hollywood" medieval combat.

_Two-handed swords were slow and cumbersome_...ummm, okay...

_Combat was all big swings and draw-cuts_...whatever...

_Asian martial arts were superior to European_...not only not true, but it amazes me just how similar they appear.  It just goes to show how using similar weapons, whether in Europe or Asia, may have some differences due to the armor you're fighting against, but for the most part are largely the same.  It shows how the evolution of combat, although sometimes developed independently, is mostly based upon effective, intuitive, practical, and universal techniques - and not some magical foreign skill unknown to the rest of the world.

Outstanding Video!


----------



## Galloglaich

Yeah whenever I watch an old Kirosawa Samurai movie, the ones from the 50's where they still have the realistic fencing, I feel on completely familiar territory, it's like watching a HEMA tournament.  Same guards, same cuts.  The only real differences are from the physical design properties of the sword, two edges. vs. one, having the cross etc.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuqwtFwJ7V4]YouTube - duel from 7 samurai[/ame]


----------



## Momeeche

Galloglaich said:


> The only real differences are from the physical design properties of the sword, two edges.




Many of them (the swords used in the Kirosawa) are also curved, while many European blade were not.


----------



## Galloglaich

2,550-Year-Old Celtic Beer Recipe Resurrected | Wired Science | Wired.com


----------



## Galloglaich

Momeeche said:


> Many of them (the swords used in the Kirosawa) are also curved, while many European blade were not.




On the surface that statement is true, but of course you probably know it's also a bit misleading because 'many' European swords were actually curved ... including some of the principle weapons in the 15th and 16th Century manuals HEMA people study, like the grossemesser which is quite similar to a Japanese sword...















and the Dussack which is smaller and a bit more characteristically European with the knucklebow


----------



## Galloglaich

*Pagan folk metal*

So I hope this isn't too off-topic for an RPG forum, I think it is related... you can be the judge. There is a new genre of pagan folk metal which seems to be merging the heavy metal scene in Europe with the re-enactor scene there in some interesting ways. I think it may be the hidden reason for how hard core those russian re-enactors are in some of the clips I posted of them upthread.

I think some of these bands may be controversial in some ways in their own countries, so I'm posting these with the caveat that I do not either condone or oppose pagan religion, slavic nationalism, turning into a viking, or playing the electric guitar while in a lightning storm in mail armor. I just find the videos and in some cases the music, entertaining.

So far this is the craziest one I've found. The scene in there at about 1 minute in when all the re-enactors start fighting is seriously nuts. The 'cookie monster voice' singer is a lady, named Masha

YouTube - ARKONA - Pokrovi Nebesnogo Startsa

Here is another from the same band, this one has the priceless scene of a heavy metal band playing in a viking ship in the middle of a hurricane 

YouTube - ARKONA - Goi, Rode, Goi! (Official)

This is a Swedish band which also has Vikings in a boat

YouTube - Amon Amarth - Twilight Of The Thunder God

They have taken the impressive step of inviting re-enactors to fight on stage at their live shows

YouTube - Amon Amarth [LIVE] - Amon Amarth

This is a Polish band, here doing some pagan folk metal

YouTube - Percival Schuttenbach - Pani Pana - Reakcja Poga?ska pagan-folk-metal

and here jumping the barrier into pure folk, but with an intriguing sound that still kind of reminds me of metal. With some nice re-enactor outfits in the videos.

YouTube - Percival - Jomsborg viking and slavic music

Finally, a band from the faeroes Islands, a bit slower but plenty of re-enactor combat in there

YouTube - Týr - Regin Smiður

From a gaming and pop culture perspective, I particularly like these videos because they usually have much, much more historically accurate clothing, armor, weapons and other gear than you ever see on say, the history channel. This is because the bands are linked with the hard-core layer of Euro-re-enactors. The bands inspire the re-enactors to greater passion, the re-enactors provide context and authenticity for the bands. And all the while audiences around the world are exposed to history in a direct passionate way. I think it's a win- win. 

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

Here is that National Geographic show they did on Talhoffer

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESZGWiHBbv4"]YouTube - National Geographic - Medieval Fight Book - Part 1-4[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wwILFEN-sg"]YouTube - National Geographic - Medieval Fight Book - Part 2-4[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=852OWMNYSu8"]YouTube - National Geographic - Medieval Fight Book - Part 3-4[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on0HTC93llI"]YouTube - National Geographic - Medieval Fight Book - Part 4-4[/ame]


----------



## Matthew_

Galloglaich said:


> Yeah whenever I watch an old Kirosawa Samurai movie, the ones from the 50's where they still have the realistic fencing, I feel on completely familiar territory, it's like watching a HEMA tournament.  Same guards, same cuts.  The only real differences are from the physical design properties of the sword, two edges. vs. one, having the cross etc.



Have you seen _Rashomon_? The differing accounts of the duel fought there are great, and draw a very amusing contrast with one another.


----------



## Galloglaich

Matthew_ said:


> Have you seen _Rashomon_? The differing accounts of the duel fought there are great, and draw a very amusing contrast with one another.




Oh yes, of course.  It's considered his best film.  The whole idea of telling the story different ways from different points of view is brilliant, copied recently in that movie about facebook.

I just saw Hidden fortress for the first time, there are some really great mass combat scenes in there, a bunch of prisoners escaping and overunning  these arquebusiers on some steps... fantastic.  I love Kirosawa.  He is the best director of sword fighting movies hands down.

G.


----------



## Galloglaich

here is an essay I wrote for one of the Codex books on the metalurgy of weapons

codexmartialis.com • View topic - Metalurgy of Weapons Essay


----------



## Galloglaich

Is the SCA is taking over the Sinhaloa cartel?

Crime Scene - Video: Marijuana-smuggling catapult

G


----------



## El Mahdi

That could actually work quite well for a siege.

It could make the defenders not care about actual defense,
and cause food stores to be used up more rapidly (munching).


----------



## Matthew_

Galloglaich said:


> Oh yes, of course.  It's considered his best film.  The whole idea of telling the story different ways from different points of view is brilliant, copied recently in that movie about facebook.
> 
> I just saw Hidden fortress for the first time, there are some really great mass combat scenes in there, a bunch of prisoners escaping and overunning  these arquebusiers on some steps... fantastic.  I love Kirosawa.  He is the best director of sword fighting movies hands down.



Great films, indeed. I think that my introduction to Kurosawa was about ten years ago via half of Rashomon, partially recorded one night off Channel 4. Shortly after that I borrowed _Seven Samurai_ from the university library, and after that_ Ran_, which I think exhausted the meagre collection there. I saw _Kagemusha_ on television a while later, and ended up buying the BFI (_British Film Institute_) DVD issues of _Hidden Fortress_, _Sanjuro_, _Yojimbo_, _Throne of Blood_, _Seven Samurai_, and _Rashomon_. Excellent buys, each one, which reminds me I should see if they ever got round to issuing versions of _Kagemusha_ and _Ran_...


----------



## Galloglaich

Another good HEMA promo vid, not very high speed but a well done and a particulalry convincing demonstration of a lot of good unarmed techniques.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX-C-zlvypk[/ame]


----------



## Galloglaich

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hrcv7kaSUwc[/ame]

I'm about 3/4 the way through watching this film, I had to pause it last night and get to bed but I'll finish watching it tonight. I was a little disappointed at first because I'm used to foreign historical or even fantasy films being a bit more historically accurate. This was not... it seems to be a Russian version of one of those early 80s US fantasy films like Conan or Beastmaster or Krull, it seems to borrow elements from all three. The beginning is almost a direct copy of the first Conan film, (kid in a village, dad making a sword, wasted by demonic bad guy and his goons). The hero has an affinity for animals like beastmaster but in this case it's a bat. Yes that's right, a bat. He has a cute little pet bat which squeaks a lot and crawls around. I haven't seen it do anything else yet. 

There are a few girls who are also quite cute, particularly his love interest a slavic princess. The costumes and most of the sets are ridiculous, maybe the same art director as beasmaster (a very similar low budget art department look). Some of the fighting is actually quite decent though, surpirsingly. Seems to be maybe some systema in there or something similar. There is also kind of an interesting take on paganiasm throughout the film, there seem to be very good, very bad, and kind of in between pagans who are neither really good or all that bad.

I kept wavering between turning it off or continuing to watch, but then something would amuse me and I would stick with it a little longer. It seems to have gradually gotten better.

*Plusses so far:*
Surprisingly decent fighting in some parts
Some beautiful Russian girls
Nice panoramic scenes of Russian countryside
Kinda fun in a goofy way like those old 80's movies

*minuses so far:*
retarded costumes
dirty medieval caveman look for most people (luckily not the pretty girls though)
retarded sets

I'll add more commentary when I see the rest tonight in case anyone is interested. Anyone else seen it?

G


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## Galloglaich

I finally finished Krzyzacy today, the volume I read was all in one book hardback, not the same edition listed on amazon which I thnk is broken up into 2 or 3 books (which is a good idea).  It was a challenging read in parts, I can see why some people get bogged down in it.  But for me it was a great book, the biggest problems I think are in the translation, which is pretty bad, and the polemical aspects of the book which were mostly just a little around the margins... it's also too long by at least 20% (and makes for a heavy book, which is probably my biggest relief in finishing it, not having to lug the huge thing around any more)





The annual re-enactment of the battle of Grunwald in Poland

There are some really excellent elements to this novel, which is set in Poland and Prussia in the early 15th Century, during the events leading up to the epic Battle of Grunwald / Tannenburg in which the Teutonic Order was routed by a coalition of the Polish and Lithuanians.  It is extremely well reserarched and contextualized by modern Western standards when it comes to any kind of Medieval setting.  It was written by Henryk Seinkiewicz, arguably the top Polish historical novelist and winner of the Nobel Prize for literature, who wrote around the turn of the 19th / 20th Century.  He is best known for his 'With Fire and Sword' trilogy about events in Poland in the 17th Century.






The whole thing is built around a well developed and poignant Love-triangle, which goes on a bit long in the book but in it's overall structure is a natural framework around which to build a story like this.  The love triangle itself brings out some of the best dialogue in the book, some of which is quite touching.

The two best scenes in Krzyzacy are in the second half of the book, there is a truly masterful set-piece battle, an ambush scene in Samogitia, depicting a running fight between a platoon sized force of Germans and a Company sized force of Poles and Lithuanians; and there is an excellent, brilliantly executed royal hunt scene which goes awry when a crazed aurochs attacks.  These were both really well done and cinematic.






Scene from the 1950s film

Among some of the other good scenes, there is a great description of the mighty Teutonic Order castle at Malbork (and it's entire economy and social context) which still stands today in what is now Poland, a very well done judicial combat scene between Zbysko and one of the Teutonic Knights (the only realistic judicial combat I've ever read in any historical novel), a great feast-scene in the huge Teutonic Order castle (a well executed feast-scene is a must for any good Medieval book), a short but well done bear-hunt scene where Zbysko is rescued by the tomboy Jagienka, his thwarted execution scene in the beginning of the novel where the little maiden Danusia throws her veil over his face thus saving his life due to a legal technicality, and the great final battle depiction of the Battle of Grunwald, which has some well executed, lyrical moments but is a bit too polemical.





Malbork Castle, today

There are also some very, very creepy, subtle occult scenes with the rogue Teutonic Knights, done in the third person of people telling stories about them, juxtoposed with their actual goings on... these scenes really had some potential to be further developed, I would call them "Poe-esque".





The devious Sanderos, selling dubious relics and indulgences while trying 
to cage free beer (from the film)

Thare are three really well developed Characters with good archetypes, Jagienka the Polish 'tomboy' country princess, Sanderus the devious but likable German monk ( a bit similar to Friar Tuck), and Jurand the formidable Mazovian border riever.  Also the two principle villains are good, Danveld and Siegfried de Löwe, the sinister Teutonic Knights.





The two rogue Teutonic Knights whose misguided action lead to the doom of many people including their own...

Other well drawn characters include Hlawa the resourceful Czech squire. Danusia the doomed Mazovian princess, Fulko de Lorche the Chivalrous Lorrainer knight, the hero / protagonist Zbysko and his tough old dad Macko.





The charming and energetic Jagienka (from the film).

Generally speaking the authors facts are very good, the only weak points are some elements of historical combat (mainly just that he overestimates effect of swords on armor).  The novel actually has quite a few sympathetic German characters and the overall standard of historical accuracy is very high, higher than in any English or American historical novel I've read set in the Medieval period.  All in all I see this something kind of like a "Last of the Mohekans" of the Medieval Baltic, it's really a great story.  

To give a taste of what the book is like, I include this passage of what appears to be ringen (Meideval grappling) technique, from the middle of the book:

_
'The Czech did not understand, it is true, what had happened, but because he had been accustomed to all kinds of danger since he was a child, he percieved danger here.  He was also surprised that Danveld, while speaking to him, came nearer and nearer, and the others began to move to the side, as if imperceptably to surround him.  For these reasons he began to be on his guard, particularly since he had no weapon, having been unable to catch one up in his haste.

Danveld, meanwhile, got close to him and continued:

"I promised your lord a healing balsam, and he repays me with evil.  That is usual, however, among the Poles... But since he is grievously hurt, and may soon stand before God, tell him"-

Here he put his left hand on the Czech's arm.

"tell him that- this is my answer!"

In that same moment he flashed his knife at the squire's throat, but before he could thrust, the Czech, who had been following his movements, seized his right hand in his iron hands, bent and twisted it till the joints and bones cracked - and only when he heard a horrid scream of pain did he put spurs to his hose and shoot off like an arrow before the others could block his way."_

Sounds just like some of the HEMA knife defense classes I've attended... 

G


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## Galloglaich

More high-energy fun from our Slovakian friends

YouTube - Shielhau Krumphau

watch for the sparks


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## Galloglaich

haven't been around for a while, but I thought I'd drop by and post this one, it's too good not to spread about a bit.

So one thing you could almost be certain that we have today but did not have in the Middle Ages, is robots.  Well, if you believed that, you wouldn't be exactly accurate.  In the Medieval period they had their own version, primitive yes, in terms of how they operated, no electronics just clockwork and hand-cranks.  But they were sophisticated to an extent which most people today would find surprising, and they were a major part of public entertainment 'back in the day'.

For example, check out this 15th Century Devil Automata owned by the Sforza family in Milan, still on display at their castle in Italy:






Here is a short article about the above device

io9. We come from the future.

and a much longer and better academic article here:

Machines in the Garden | Republics of Letters: A Journal for the Study of Knowledge, Politics, and the Arts

G.


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## Galloglaich

Quote of the Day:

The future pope Pius II was astonished to discover how militarised a society urban Germany was. As he observed in 1444, ‘not only every noble, but even e*very burgher in the guilds has an armoury in his house so as to appear equipped at every alarm. The skill of the citizens in the use of weapons is extraordinary’*. 


This is a fantastic article, very helpful to my current research:
Towns and Defence in Later Medieval Germany


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## Matthew_

Interesting article. The importance attached to guns as opposed to fortifications especially.


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## Galloglaich

Cutting, fencing, and ringen* from Poland, may 2011

With our Swedish friend Axel Petterson

?KUNKS 2011 on Vimeo

watch for the sparks.




G.


* 15th Century German wrestling


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## Herremann the Wise

Took a little while to find this thread but I have to comment once again that this is easily one of the best threads on EN World. Whenever I need a little bit of game inspiration, this is the thread I seem to keep coming back to.

Brilliant Stuff!

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise


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## Galloglaich

*Things that go bump in the night*

*[FONT=&quot]This is an essay I added to my Baltic book today, wanted to share it here where some people might find it amusing.  - G
[/FONT]*


*[FONT=&quot]==================================
[/FONT]*
*[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]*
*[FONT=&quot]Things that go bump in the night[/FONT]*
  [FONT=&quot]Stranger and more sinister legends and perhaps traditions abound in the Baltic.  One common theme are so-called werewolves.  For example the 16th Century Swedish Historian Olaus Magnus relates that:[/FONT]

_[FONT=&quot]"In Prussia, Livonia, and Lithuania, although the inhabitants suffer considerably from the rapacity of wolves throughout the year, in that these animals rend their cattle, which are scattered in great numbers through the woods, whenever they stray in the very least, yet this is not regarded by them as such a serious matter as what they endure from men turned into wolves.[/FONT]_

_[FONT=&quot]"On the feast of the Nativity of Christ, at night, such a multitude of wolves transformed from men gather together in a certain spot, arranged among themselves, and then spread to rage with wondrous ferocity against human beings, and those animals which are not wild, that the natives of these regions suffer more detriment from these, than they do from true and natural wolves; for when a human habitation has been detected by them isolated in the woods, they besiege it with atrocity, striving to break in the doors, and in the event of their doing so, they devour all the human beings, and every animal which is found within. They burst into the beer-cellars, and there they empty the tuns of beer or mead, and pile up the empty casks one above another in the middle of the cellar, thus showing their difference from natural and genuine wolves... Between Lithuania, Livonia, and Courland are the walls of a certain old ruined castle. At this spot congregate in the thousands, on a fixed occasion, and try their agility in jumping.  Those who are unable to bound over the wall, as; is often the case with the fattest, are fallen upon with scourges by the captains and slain."[/FONT]_

  [FONT=&quot]Like so many records from this era, such stories (which were fairly common) could be interpreted a number of ways.  There are records of farmsteads discovered which had been wiped out during the winter of course, but this could be due to any number of reasons, sometimes it does appear to have been wolves, though the anecdotes above sound more like desperate bandits or outlaws who have reached the point of starvation and perhaps insanity…. One might say lunacy.  Such tales of people reverting to wolflike behavior (and costumes) during hard times go way back in the Baltic, for example Sigurd Dragon slayer in the Viking-Age Saga of the Volsungs.  [/FONT]

  [FONT=&quot]Outlaws are also legally associated with wolves going way back.  In Saxon common law, when someone was made outlaw (one of the worst punishments) a "Writ of Outlawry" was read, with the pronouncement _Caput gerat lupinum_ ("Let his be a wolf's head," literally "May he bear a wolfish head") literally equating that person with a wolf in the eyes of the law.  He could then proceed to the forest where he must fend for himself.  Interestingly this was also a sentence frequently passed onto Berzerkers in Viking times.  In pagan Latvia there was a class of unwed male warriors called _vilkacis_ who were associated with wolves in a manner similar to the Norse Ulfhednar Berzerkers.[/FONT]

  [FONT=&quot]A possible bridge between the idea of an outlaw and that of a member of a mystical warrior subculture can perhaps be found in the _[FONT=&quot]Roggenwolf[/FONT]_ ('rye-wolf') of German rural folklore.  This is a demon that lives in grain fields and ambushes peasants, strangling them. This sinister creature is represented at harvest-time by the last sheaf, which is called 'Wolf' and tied up to nullify its malignance (in a ritual which mirrors the more positive version of what is done to prepare for the arrival of Frau Holda on 12th night in the Alps).  Coincidentally, the fungus ergot, which grows on rye especially when it rains too much sometimes goes by the euphemism _[FONT=&quot]Wolf[/FONT]_ or _[FONT=&quot]Wolfszahn[/FONT]_ ('Wolf-tooth').  It certainly has a bite, ergot is a strong hallucinogen similar in potency to LSD which is actually derived from ergot alkaloids.   Its effects were well known to alchemists and physicians in the Medieval period, who knew it as St Anthony’s Fire.[/FONT]

  [FONT=&quot]On the other hand there may be no connection between these things at all.  [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The reality of this legend described by Olaus Magnus may be as simple a mistranslation of local complaints about outlaws.  Or it could reflect wolves showing a bit more cunning and determination than people expected from them during a hard winter, or outlaws showing a bit more ferocity and cruelty than would normally be associated with ordinary Outlaws under the same circumstances.  Thus lurid tales are invented.  One thing is for sure, it could sure get creepy real late at night in the dead of winter in a small farmstead deep in the Prussian forest…[/FONT]


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## Galloglaich

Who built the Goblin holes and why? 

This is really cool 

Hideouts or Sacred Spaces? Experts Baffled by Mysterious Underground Chambers - ABC News


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## Jack7

Another superb set of entries Gall. By far the best and most eclectic historical and research thread on this site (and on many other sites on the internet as well).


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## Dannyalcatraz

A more modern bit of video- a recent Greco-Roman wrestling match, featuring the rarely performed "flying squirrel"...don't know if it has historical precedent, but it IS hysterical!

Video: Greco-Roman wrestler’s insane ‘flying squirrel’ takedown - Fourth-Place Medal - OlympicsBlog - Yahoo! Sports

I'd love to see a grappler do something like that in a fantasy movie, TV show, or FRPG.


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## Galloglaich

That is awesome.  I think you might see a few similar moves in that last Polish ringen / fencing tournament video I posted, but nothing quite that spectacular!

G.


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## Galloglaich

Traditional Medieval Florentine Football...


If modern football was more like this Medieval Florentine equivalent, I think I'd be more into it.

Calcio Storico Fiorentino on Vimeo


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## El Mahdi

I'm betting that a Nike endorsement back then would have been absolutely divine...


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## Galloglaich

Hahaha considering at least 3 successive Popes apparently played this game in the 16th Century that may not have been necessary...

G.


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## Galloglaich

Steampunk fans who like the Middle Ages never fear, found another cool Medieval Robot.  An automata called the "Complementaurious", which was clad in a suit of armor and used to greet people with a complex series of movements in the entrance to the Merchants Guild Hall in Bremen, on of the most interesting of the Hanseatic cities.

This is the robot itself






Here is an article about it on French Wikipedia (for those who can read French)
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automate_mécanique


And this is his armor





16th century Maximilian armour now exhibited in the Focke-Museum, the museum for art and cultural history of the state of Bremen. The armour belonged to the Complimentarius, a mechanical greeting-automaton that was installed from the early 17th to th

It's not hard to imagine how such a device could be made to cause trouble for Adventurers, particularly low level adventurers or in a low-magic campaign.  Especially since we know of at least one Arab inventor from as early as the 12th Century who made programmable automata / robots (to play music).  Detailed plans for which survived in a book he wrote.

G.


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## Jack7

Personally I adore examples of Ancient and Medieval ingenuity and innovation. I've never seen this robot before. Thanks for the post.


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## Galloglaich

Galloglaich said:


> Who built the Goblin holes and why?
> 
> This is really cool
> 
> Hideouts or Sacred Spaces? Experts Baffled by Mysterious Underground Chambers - ABC News




Some more on this.

Never Yet Melted  Erdstall



























Tell me this doesn't scream adventure hook?

This one could be a dungeon map

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ll_grundriss.jpg/666px-Erdstall_grundriss.jpg

G


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## Galloglaich

A video, in German

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__HLt5ssH9M]Erdställe werden in Nittenau vorgestellt - YouTube[/ame]


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## Galloglaich

German Wiki on Erdstal, translated into English

Google Translate


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## Galloglaich

Thought some of y'all might like this video

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt7I6H4kNPQ&feature=related]Dreynschlag - The movie - YouTube[/ame]


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## Galloglaich

Hey guys... and gals.  Haven't been here for a while!  I thought some people here might like seeing this video of the recent (2012) fencing tournament in Poland "SKUNKS".  Mens longsword starts at 4:56

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv4jt2B9VcM]S?KUNKS 2012 - YouTube[/ame]

Some really nice sparks during a parry at 7:05

G


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## Galloglaich

Incidentally the guy who won is the same guy who did this and some other good technique videos:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc]Zwerchhau, absetzen, nachreissen - longsword techniques training - YouTube[/ame]

you can recognize him toward the end of the men's longsword tournament, he's the one in all black with the mask cover which kinds of curls up.

His name is Anton Kohutovic.  The second place, Jan Chodkiewicz from Poland, is also a very good longsword fencer.

G


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## Brainfart

I have a mancrush on AK's zornhau and the way he throws it as a vorschlag. Excellent management of distance and commitment.


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## Galloglaich

Yes, agreed on both counts. I think he may have the best Zornhau in the world right now... it's what he used to win 3/4 of his fights.  Nobody had an answer for it.

G


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## Zireael

1) An excellent thread. Goes straight to my favs.
2) Is there a video with an example of double-weapon fighting (staves etc.)?
3) Is Codex Martialis a paid or free supplement?


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## Galloglaich

1) Thanks !
2) Yes there are quite a few, though no sparring to that level of intensity that I'm aware of. Mostly either light-sparring or technique demonstrations. Some examples:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FI3aI_DQl0"]hammaborg mordaxt 1 - YouTube[/ame]

Hamabourg in Germany, light sparring with pollaxe based on Liecthenauer KDF (Medieval Central European, 15th Century)

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv-Vut0xb9Y&feature=relmfu"]hammaborg halbschwert gladiatoria 13r + 13 v - YouTube[/ame]

Same group doing half-sword techniques in armor (these also work with staves, pole-arms etc.)

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTVC25hYJaY"]Techniques with the Pollaxe - YouTube[/ame]

Simple techinque progression with pollaxe, from MEMAG (Maryland, US) based on Talhoffer which is late KDF / Liechenauer

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TzdtyMC7ek&list=UUSjXHeq8fuL-Je7cashCDqA&index=1&feature=plcp"]Fencing with five different medieval weapons - YouTube[/ame]

Demonstration (technique progression) from another German group with 5 weapons, also Liechtenauer / KDF... Pollaxe at 1:20

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzgi8kB6cPU"]Staff Plays from Meyer and Mair - YouTube[/ame]

Staff techiques from two 16th Century German Masters, by MEMAG in Maryland

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ohyb9Mc-4AM"]The Peasant Staff of Paulus Hector Mair - YouTube[/ame]

'Peasant staff' from PHM, 16th Century German, by MEMAG


3) It's a pay book, but I'll send you a free copy if you'll write me a review 

G


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## Zireael

> 3) It's a pay book, but I'll send you a free copy if you'll write me a review




I could take you up on this offer. I'm writing articles for a Polish site polter.pl, and I could write a review of Codex Martialis, since I see it hasn't been reviewed yet.

Interested? Send me a PM if yes, I'll respond with my e-mail.

However, I'm not likely to write the review overly soon, I'm swamped with exams next 2 weeks. But in June, why not? It'll give me something to write...


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## Gold Roger

I'm not through the whole thing, but I want to say this thread is an absolute goldmine. And I say that as a proponent of more fantastic, wahoo RPGing over the very medieval low fantasy.

From the stuff I've read so far, I particularly like your contributions on viking elves and knights.

I sadly can't use the viking stuff for the elves in my game (doesn't fit my concept of elves), but my homebrew as a mix of viking, polynesian and a bit egyptian halflings (I told you I like wahoo).

Your stuff on knights contained little I didn't know to be honest. But I consider this a good thing, as I'm a history student and knights figured it most medieval matters I've tackled so far (not as the main matter, of course). The medieval age and knights are all to often romanticised or bungled up (don't even get me started on some views both pro and contra vikings), so it's good to see someone put in work and go directly to the sources.


As I said, my own gaming doesn't overly concern itself with historical correctness and is explicitly anachronistic (a gamingtable of history students to pick appart my DMing? I'll pass), but sometimes it's nice to give reality a nod. Knights in my games might not be medieval knights, but they need to be recognizable as knights nonetheless.


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## Galloglaich

Zireael said:


> I could take you up on this offer. I'm writing articles for a Polish site polter.pl, and I could write a review of Codex Martialis, since I see it hasn't been reviewed yet.




Since you mentioned it,  actually Codex Martialis has been reviewed about 25 times I think, I've lost count.  Between the two versions of the core rules it has 11 reviews on DrivethruRpg (8 for the original version (average 4.6 out of 5), 2 for the updated version, (4.4 out of 5) and 1 for the bundle (4 out of 5), the extras (weapons and armor books have another 6 between them (5 for the melee weapon book for 4.4 out of 5) and 1 for the armor and missile weapon book (4 out of 5)).  It has a couple of (positive) reviews on RPG.Net, at least one rave review from a blogger in the UK and it's also been reviewed in Korean, Italian (in Sardania), Spanish, and Hungarian that I know of... all positive.  It was also reviewed by at least one guy from Poland but I think he did his in English.

But regardless, I'm always glad to get another review as well as constructive criticism or feedback, probably half the ideas in the Codex came from various people online or friends from the HEMA community, it's been kind of a group effort really.



> Interested? Send me a PM if yes, I'll respond with my e-mail.




I'll just send you a pm with my email and you can email me.  Write the review whenever you can, I trust you, Poles are my natural allies.  

G


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## Galloglaich

Gold Roger said:


> I'm not through the whole thing, but I want to say this thread is an absolute goldmine. And I say that as a proponent of more fantastic, wahoo RPGing over the very medieval low fantasy.
> 
> From the stuff I've read so far, I particularly like your contributions on viking elves and knights.
> 
> I sadly can't use the viking stuff for the elves in my game (doesn't fit my concept of elves), but my homebrew as a mix of viking, polynesian and a bit egyptian halflings (I told you I like wahoo).
> 
> Your stuff on knights contained little I didn't know to be honest. But I consider this a good thing, as I'm a history student and knights figured it most medieval matters I've tackled so far (not as the main matter, of course). The medieval age and knights are all to often romanticised or bungled up (don't even get me started on some views both pro and contra vikings), so it's good to see someone put in work and go directly to the sources.
> 
> 
> As I said, my own gaming doesn't overly concern itself with historical correctness and is explicitly anachronistic (a gamingtable of history students to pick appart my DMing? I'll pass), but sometimes it's nice to give reality a nod. Knights in my games might not be medieval knights, but they need to be recognizable as knights nonetheless.




I don't think you need to be a strictly historical or even low-fantasy gamer to appreciate or get value out of historical information.  The patterns of history, and 'real' mythology and so on, can inform any fantasy or even sci fi setting with a lot of rich detail and nuance, which you can chose to distort in any way you like.  For example, Game of Thrones is closely mapped to a fairly loose interpretation of Medieval history, the Starks and the Lannisters are a fairly obvious corrolary for the Yorks and the Lancasters of the War of the Roses just to cite one blatant example.  The author can ditch a lot of details and even general themes, but still benefit by the verisimilitude inherent in the patterns of the historical reality.  

For that matter I think most of the highly regarded fantasy or sci fi authors had a pretty substantial grounding in history, at least the old ones did.  Robert E Howard, Lovecraft, Tolkein, Fritz Leiber, Jack Vance, were all well grounded in history.  It really gives you something to play with so you don't have to re-invent the wheel.  You could think of it like flour, from which it's up to you if you want to bake bread, cake, or cookies.

G


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## Gold Roger

Galloglaich said:


> I don't think you need to be a strictly historical or even low-fantasy gamer to appreciate or get value out of historical information.  The patterns of history, and 'real' mythology and so on, can inform any fantasy or even sci fi setting with a lot of rich detail and nuance, which you can chose to distort in any way you like.  For example, Game of Thrones is closely mapped to a fairly loose interpretation of Medieval history, the Starks and the Lannisters are a fairly obvious corrolary for the Yorks and the Lancasters of the War of the Roses just to cite one blatant example.  The author can ditch a lot of details and even general themes, but still benefit by the verisimilitude inherent in the patterns of the historical reality.
> 
> For that matter I think most of the highly regarded fantasy or sci fi authors had a pretty substantial grounding in history, at least the old ones did.  Robert E Howard, Lovecraft, Tolkein, Fritz Leiber, Jack Vance, were all well grounded in history.  It really gives you something to play with so you don't have to re-invent the wheel.  You could think of it like flour, from which it's up to you if you want to bake bread, cake, or cookies.
> 
> G




That seems a very accurate assertion to me.

Studying history also brings an incidental (and sometimes intentional) study of myth, legend and tropes with it that I find, among other uses, very useful for my gaming habits.

I might not use the battle of hastings as a model for my gaming, but the tools medieval authors use to describe it and william the conquerer go streight into the realm of fantasy and can give a setting the right feel without any historical accuracy.


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## Galloglaich

Agreed, hence the title of this thread.  My only caveat is that historical facts are often far more fascinating and fun than people realize, which is part of what I was trying to demonstrate with this thread.  The overlap between all the really neat (and scary, and fascinating, and enthralling) things that define say, late Medieval history with what people think it was all about is really very very small.  

The same can be said for mythology of course as well.  

But sometimes peoples resistance to the historical can be itself rather irrational.  For example, a few years ago Jake Norwood, creator of Riddle of Steel and also an historical fencer, was visiting us here, and decided to run a game set in 17th Century Poland based on the "With Fire and Sword" novels.  Some of the guys who were going to play were rather typical gamers and initially balked at the idea of an historical setting, "all these names are too weird" and so on.  We suggested that they think of it as just another wierd arbitrary fantasy setting: you can substitute Gandalf for John Casimir, or Drzzzt for Ivan Bohun; Arenal for Prussia or Gondor for Poland; Dithracki for Mongols and Qarth for Constantinople.  All the names are equally weird.  They reluctantly tried it and.... it was a blast! everyone agreeed, one of the best game sessions we ever had.  

So personally I don't really care if it's a pure fantasy setting or historical, but I like a feeling of immersion, and for that, I want some kind of verisimilitude.  I can get immersed in a Buggs Bunny cartoon, (or say, a Paranoia game) because it's consistant with it's own internal logic; I can get immersed in a good horror movie (or a Call of Cthulhu game) for the same reasons.  But when it comes to fantasy settings, I find I am often disappointed, not because it's a fantasy setting, but because it's just too juvenile or sophomoric and I really just can't buy-into it no matter how hard I try.  Like one of those really bad Sci Fi channel movies they used to have a few years ago, Mansquito or Megashark or whatever.  That is how most Fantasy RPG settings strike me.

G


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## Galloglaich

Interesting interview with Neal Stephenson related to HEMA and so on.  

Sword Fighting with Neal Stephenson and His Mongoliad Co-Authors

G


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## Galloglaich

Thought some folks here would find this interesting, as it relates to the OP.  Kind of like a 'real life fighter / magic user'


Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa, a fine student, black magician – and a Freyfechter?  Hroarr.com

G


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## Galloglaich

My nomination for best battle scene in any movie

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7bXsUyGWhw]Potop 1974, The Deluge 1974 (Swedish Withdrawal) part 2 - YouTube[/ame]


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## Dannyalcatraz

Something that just popped up on my radar...The GM's Real-World Reference by Tristan Zimmerman — Kickstarter


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