# So I have the Martial Powers book.



## Bagpuss

So anything people want to know?

There are 5 chapters.

Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, Warlord and Martial Options.

Each class chapter has New builds, new class features, new powers and new paragon paths.

The Martial Options chapter has Feats, and 10 new Epic Destinies.


----------



## senna

you are a lucky guy!!!

What are the new epic destinies?

What caught your eye?

So far so good for questions.


----------



## avin

Is it a rule book or does it have some monsters around?


----------



## Bagpuss

avin said:


> Is it a rule book or does it have some monsters around?




It's basically mostly useful to players of Martial characters. Although other player's who multiclass might find it useful too, or DM's that want to use PC type villains.

It's a very focused book, there is a little bit of rolelplay fluff here and there but it is mainly powers, feats and features. No new equipment, the only monsters as such are animal companions for the Ranger and they can't really be used on there own.


----------



## Abdomens

Could you list the names of the Epic Destinies?


----------



## vagabundo

If you can post any info that grabs your attention and I will lurk in this thread.


----------



## Bagpuss

senna said:


> What are the new epic destinies?




Adamantine Soldier
Beastlord
Dark Wanderer
Eternal Defender
Godhunter
Legendary General
Martial Archetype
Perfect Assassin
Undying Warrior
Warmaster



> What caught your eye?




Really just started scanning through it, but the fact it is packed with so many new powers impressed me. Fighters get four new At-Wills, (not including utility one's at higher levels like the Rogue got in the PHB), Rangers and Warlord's two and the Rogue just the one. There are six new 1st level Encounter Powers for Fighters and five new Dailys, each level (where you get powers) seems to get at least four or five. Then 12 new Paragon paths for Fighters. The Tempest Technique or  Battlerager Vigor Class Feature makes a lightly armoured fighters a real possibility.

You get a similar number of extra powers and paragon paths for the other classes. In the Martial Option section there are two Martial feats open to any martial class then between 15 and 20 feats for each of the martial classes *in each of the heroic and paragon tiers and more general martial feats and a handful or extra class specific feats in the Epic tier. So loads of new feats.* (edit)

One thing that does concern me it he Battlerager Vigor means it could effectively have unlimited temporary hit points, since it's Feature allows it to stack temporary hit points gained from _Invigorating _ (new keyword) powers with any other temporary hit points they already have.


----------



## Klaus

Any Weapon Specialization multiclass paths?


----------



## Bagpuss

Klaus said:


> Any Weapon Specialization multiclass paths?




Yes I think, not exactly sure what you mean by that,

But for the Fighter here are some of the Paragon paths.

Polearm Master - all its powers depend on you using a two-handed reach weapon
Shield Adept
Shock Trooper - uses two weapons.

Actually seems pretty limited. There are more racial Paragon fighter paths for the dragonborn, halfing, dwarf and tiefling.

There are plenty of powers that do a bonus if you are wielding a particular type of weapon.


----------



## FreshDice

Are there any Weapon Specialization multiclass feats?


----------



## Bagpuss

FreshDice said:


> Are there any Weapon Specialization multiclass feats?




Not really there is only one feat that is weapon dependent by the looks of things, (some are armour and shield dependent) Rogue Weapon Mastery, whis makes daggers and shuriken count as high crit weapons. But not only do you need to be a Rogue you need the Rogue Weapon Talent, so you couldn't take it as a multiclass rogue.

Opps I was only looking at Paragon Feats then let me check the others....

Dragging Flail
Fey Blades - Eldarin only
Polearm Momentum
Reaping Blade
Longsword Finesse - Eldarin only

There are 10 new Multiclass feats which in order to take you must have chosen paragon multiclassing in that class. Each of them seems to just grant an additional class feature. Weapon Specialization is not one of them.


----------



## Drkfathr1

So no new weapons? The whip, net, etc from the Gladiator article in Dragon aren't included?


----------



## Bagpuss

Drkfathr1 said:


> So no new weapons? The whip, net, etc from the Gladiator article in Dragon aren't included?




No new weapons. No Gladiator either. I didn't see that article myself, so I'm not sure what if anything from it you would expect to be in.


----------



## DarthMouth

Bagpuss said:


> There are 10 new Multiclass feats which in order to take you must have chosen paragon multiclassing in that class. Each of them seems to just grant an additional class feature. Weapon Specialization is not one of them.




Hows that? let me see if i get it..

You a rogue, multiclass into fighter... and take that paragorn feat... so you get a basic fighter class feature like combat challenge or combat superiority ?????


----------



## Shroomy

So how exactly does the Beastmaster animal companion work, specifically, how does it scale and what differentiates the various types of companions?

What does the "rattling" keyword do?

Can you tell me about the "Legendary General" epic destiny?


----------



## Bagpuss

DarthMouth said:


> Hows that? let me see if i get it..
> 
> You a rogue, multiclass into fighter... and take that paragorn feat... so you get a basic fighter class feature like combat challenge or combat superiority ?????




Pretty much.


----------



## erf_beto

Bagpuss said:


> There are 10 new Multiclass feats which in order to take you must have chosen paragon multiclassing in that class. Each of them seems to just grant an additional class feature.



 Do they improve the initial multiclass feat benefit, like Sneak Attack every round (and not once per encounter), or they just give you the other features of your multiclass (like rogue weapon talent, prime shot, etc)?

Oh, and I second the request for info on animal companions!


----------



## darjr

You are very brave to dive into this.

First, on the top of my head, anything to like tide of iron cept using reach weapons?

More detail on animal companions, yes, please.

Also, is there a lot more pushing and pulling and dropping prone stuff in there?


----------



## Cadfan

Could we get information on the new keywords?  Rattling, Invigorating, etc?

Also, is this book in stores?  Or did you just get lucky ordering it online?


----------



## Klaus

Bagpuss said:


> Yes I think, not exactly sure what you mean by that,
> 
> But for the Fighter here are some of the Paragon paths.
> 
> Polearm Master - all its powers depend on you using a two-handed reach weapon
> Shield Adept
> Shock Trooper - uses two weapons.
> 
> Actually seems pretty limited. There are more racial Paragon fighter paths for the dragonborn, halfing, dwarf and tiefling.
> 
> There are plenty of powers that do a bonus if you are wielding a particular type of weapon.



The Gladiator article in Dragon had Weapon Specialization feats that worked like "multiclass". You had to take a feat for proficiency, then take the three multiclass feats for that weapon. The article had Whip, Bola and Net.


----------



## Bagpuss

Klaus said:


> The Gladiator article in Dragon had Weapon Specialization feats that worked like "multiclass". You had to take a feat for proficiency, then take the three multiclass feats for that weapon. The article had Whip, Bola and Net.




Nothing like that.


----------



## Bagpuss

Cadfan said:


> Could we get information on the new keywords?  Rattling, Invigorating, etc?




Keywords

*Invigorating *powers give you temp hps if you hit with them, but only if you are trained in Endurance.

*Rattling* powers give opponents an attack penalty if you are trained with Intimidate and do damage.

*Beast* you need to have a conscious and present beast companion to use this power.



> Also, is this book in stores?  Or did you just get lucky ordering it online?




I received it direct from WotC by way of an apology, since they have apologised I won't mention the incident that lead to it.


----------



## Lizard

Bagpuss said:


> So anything people want to know?




Any kind of Urban Ranger variant? Or Bounty Hunter?


----------



## Sitara

What about the 2-H Ranger option? I have been waiting for that since 4e came out! Details on this please!


----------



## Bagpuss

darjr said:


> You are very brave to dive into this.




Well I'll try to keep up.



> First, on the top of my head, anything to like tide of iron cept using reach weapons?




There are some feats that work with polearm pushes and slides. Put there isn't an at-will that pushes like tide of iron. There is a fighter At-Will that pulls, and doesn't depend on a particular weapon or shield so could be used with a polearm.



> More detail on animal companions, yes, please.




There are a number of animal types, like Lizard, Hawk, etc. Now if that lizard is a crocodile or a salamander is up to the player depending on their character background. All lizards are treated the same, their defenses, attack values and the like are based on X+Ranger's Level. Where X is a number depending on the defense and animal template.

There are various things you can get your companion to do and these that various actions some of which you can combine with a similar action by yourt character (remember the problem with economy of actions I think they have solved it). Getting the beast to attack is a standard action (so no standard action for you). Move is a move action (but you can move at the same time).

Some Ranger powers have the Beast keyword (see above) and allow you to act in concert with your beast to do different things and some do (B) damage where B is the creatures damage value, rather than (W).



> Also, is there a lot more pushing and pulling and dropping prone stuff in there?




I've only really looked through the first through fighter powers in any detail, but there does seem to be a lot of pushing, sliding pulling knocking prone and shifting type powers.


----------



## Lord Nat

Two things:

How do the feats look?

Never mind on the other one ^ last post told me.


----------



## Cadfan

Thank you for the reply, Bagpuss.


----------



## Zsig

Are there any other Racial Feats like those 2 Eladrin ones you mentioned above?

And, could you give us a hint about what Fey Blades and Longsword Finesse do?

EDIT:
Oh, and thank you!


----------



## Bagpuss

Lizard said:


> Any kind of Urban Ranger variant? Or Bounty Hunter?




Nope.


----------



## Bagpuss

Sitara said:


> What about the 2-H Ranger option?




Erm nothing like that (at least no new Class Feature, or At-Wills that would help with a two-handed weapon).

There is a 2-Weapon Fighter option now as they get Dual Strike as an At-Will and the Tempest Technique.


----------



## Nikosandros

Are there any ranged powers for the fighter?


----------



## tonpa

What kind of race specific stuff there are generally in options chapter? 

*Edit: This was answered when I was writing this. Thanks *

And more specifically: in what aspects do the racial paragon paths focus on, like what is the thing for dragonborns, dwarfs and tieflings? 

Cheers 

-Tonpa


----------



## Bagpuss

Zsig said:


> Are there any other Racial Feats like those 2 Eladrin ones you mentioned above?




Yes there are lots of Racial Feats, Racial Paragon classes, and things like that. I think there are even some powers that depend on you being a certain race that aren't even part of a paragon class.



> And, could you give us a hint about what Fey Blades and Longsword Finesse do?




Longsword Finesse allows you to treat a longsword as a light blade, nice for Rogues I guess.

Fey Blades allow Eladrin Tempest Technique fighter to do extra damage when using a pair of matched blades.

Best Eldarin feat I saw so far however is one that allows them to use _Fey Step_ as part of a charge so they can teleport 5 squares during any point of the charge and if the attack hits they don't expend _Fey Step_.


----------



## tonpa

Is there anything for Paladin, save multiclass feats? I presume no, but I still hope.. 

Cheers.

-Tonpa


----------



## Sitara

I guess the beastmaster ranger is the 2H variant. Sort of.


----------



## Evilhalfling

Any *heroic* Warlord powers with range (either attacks or defense) 
-including things like the enc17 power that gives a shift 3 and basic attack to ally - this is ranged for a warlord.

whats the concept for the resourceful Warlord?


----------



## Cadfan

Hmm.  Longsword Finesse...

Kind of makes Rapiers obsolete for anyone who isn't using two weapon fighting.  They could take Longsword Finesse instead, get their +3/1d8 light blade, and then get an extra +1 damage from Versatile.

Works well for people like me who like reskinning.  A two handed sword that counts as a light blade?  Longsword Finesse = Katanas for rogues.

Oh, also, that makes rogues eligible for heavy blade feats.

I guess you could also use it if you were a Fighter who wanted to dip into Rogue, but I'm not sure how cost effective that choice would be.


----------



## JPL

Any paragon paths that particularly catch your eye?


----------



## Bagpuss

tonpa said:


> Is there anything for Paladin, save multiclass feats? I presume no, but I still hope..




Nope nothing for none martial classes. As I said earlier it's a very focused book, and I personally think the better for it.


----------



## tonpa

Cadfan said:


> Hmm.  Longsword Finesse...
> 
> Kind of makes Rapiers obsolete for anyone who isn't using two weapon fighting.  They could take Longsword Finesse instead, get their +3/1d8 light blade, and then get an extra +1 damage from Versatile..




Eladrins need some boost, and this seems to deliver.  

Thanks for the info Bagpuss!

Cheers 

-Tonpa


----------



## Nikosandros

Nikosandros said:


> Are there any ranged powers for the fighter?



Perhaps you missed this one...


----------



## Mathew_Freeman

Drkfathr1 said:


> So no new weapons? The whip, net, etc from the Gladiator article in Dragon aren't included?




I'm very happy to hear that material from Dragon (that wasn't a preview) isn't in this book. It means that the DDI subscription is worth something.

Thanks for the thread, Bagpuss.


----------



## Kobold Avenger

With the improved multiclassing feats, do any of them allow someone multiclassing into rogue more than 1 sneak attack?

What are some of the beast companions?  I assume it's things like wolves, badgers, cougars and horses at lower levels, but what about Epic levels?  Anything really neat?

Are there any warlord powers that are really helpful for a firing squad?


----------



## Bagpuss

Cadfan said:


> Hmm.  Longsword Finesse...
> 
> Kind of makes Rapiers obsolete for anyone who isn't using two weapon fighting.  They could take Longsword Finesse instead, get their +3/1d8 light blade, and then get an extra +1 damage from Versatile.
> 
> Works well for people like me who like reskinning.  A two handed sword that counts as a light blade?  Longsword Finesse = Katanas for rogues.
> 
> Oh, also, that makes rogues eligible for heavy blade feats.
> 
> I guess you could also use it if you were a Fighter who wanted to dip into Rogue, but I'm not sure how cost effective that choice would be.




Sorry bit of a correction needed here.

It just allows an Eldarin you use a longsword to do sneak attack damage, and *with rogue powers that require a light blade*. It still does not allow the longsword to be thrown. And the sneak attack damage is one dice less.


----------



## Voadam

What are the new warlord at wills?


----------



## Dirge

Any love for a ranged Ranger? At-wills? Heroic-Tiered Feats?


----------



## Rechan

Are there any powers that let a Warlord lead from the back ranks, or do all the powers pretty much preclude the Warlord using a melee attack and/or being adjacent to the ally/enemy? 

Do all the Encounter powers play off the class features in Martial Power? Are there any powers that key off the PHB class features (Inspiring Warlord, Artful Dodger, that sort of thing)? Are there any powers that just stand on their own (not modified by an existing class feature)? 

Is there a real difference between the beast companions? I.e. "Wolves can knock foes prone", or any other sort of abilities beyond their defenses, HP and basic attacks?


----------



## ppaladin123

Thanks for all this information! I'd like to know a bit about the warlord paragon paths. I think the recent preview stated that there is one with a religious theme?


----------



## Bagpuss

From another thread...

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4t...hats-general-feeling-martial-powers-book.html



Aristotle said:


> 1.) Multiclassing.




Answered above.



> 2.) What is the class ability for the other warlord build?




There are two new commanding presence options, both depend on ally spending an action point to make an attack and allow a player to chose to make an extra attack if they hit, but suffer a penalty if they miss. The other they do a little extra damage if they hit or gain some temp hit points if they miss.



Mengu said:


> The biggest complaint I hear about the PHB is not enough feats. Is there a respectable number in the MP, and how easy/hard are they to qualify for?




Loads about 30 or more for each martial class.



> How many new builds for each class?




Varies between one or two.



> Can you give us an abbreviated table of contents for just chapter names, and page numbers so we have an idea about the bulk of each section?




It's about 18 to 20 pages for each class, on powers and class features, then another 11 or 12 pages of paragon paths per class. Then page 20 pages of feats and 10 of epic destinies.


----------



## tonpa

Bagpuss said:


> It's about 18 to 20 pages for each class, on powers and class features, then another 11 or 12 pages of paragon paths per class. Then page 20 pages of feats and 10 of epic destinies.




 Thats HUGE! 

BTW: how is the art by your opinion? Nice portraits by any change?

Cheers

-Tonpa


----------



## Ibixat

I see you indicated rogues getting shuriken and daggers to be High crit, that's kinda cool since they are traditionally kinda weak options overall to start with.

Did they by any chance expand the starting weapon proficiencies for any classes to cover any AV weapon types?

And was there any Forgotten realms coverage in feats, Genasi or Drow etc, PHB had racial feats for the races, FRPG had racials for drow and genasi etc but are we going to only get racials for PHB races in Martial power and so forth?  if so I guess we'll have to turn to DDI an dragon to fill in the non-PHB races (I can see not including feats for dragon published races in published books but it's kinda lame if they don't include the non-dragon races in future books)


----------



## DarthMouth

Bagpuss said:


> Fighters get four new At-Wills, (not including *utility one's at higher levels* like the Rogue got in the PHB),





Can u give a little light in those ones? just curious to see what a fighter can do in -utilitie at will- basis ...
Other classes get some also?


----------



## Bagpuss

Dirge said:


> Any love for a ranged Ranger? At-wills? Heroic-Tiered Feats?




Read the thread there is plenty love for all the Martial classes in this book as you would expect, they all get about the same page count, same range of powers and feats.


----------



## ppaladin123

Ibixat said:


> I see you indicated rogues getting shuriken and daggers to be High crit, that's kinda cool since they are traditionally kinda weak options overall to start with.
> 
> Did they by any chance expand the starting weapon proficiencies for any classes to cover any AV weapon types?
> 
> And was there any Forgotten realms coverage in feats, Genasi or Drow etc, PHB had racial feats for the races, FRPG had racials for drow and genasi etc but are we going to only get racials for PHB races in Martial power and so forth?  if so I guess we'll have to turn to DDI an dragon to fill in the non-PHB races (I can see not including feats for dragon published races in published books but it's kinda lame if they don't include the non-dragon races in future books)





In the "november and beyond" preview released yesterday there are feats listed from the martial power book for drow and genasi.


----------



## Ibixat

ppaladin123 said:


> In the "november and beyond" preview released yesterday there are feats listed from the martial power book for drow and genasi.




Ok that's good, I must have missed that page =)

Time to sleep soundly then.

Now if only I had the book myself so I could dream of it's rogue filled goodness =(


----------



## Inyssius

Bagpuss said:


> Read the thread there is plenty love for all the Martial classes in this book as you would expect, they all get about the same page count, same range of powers and feats.




Read the post. Are there any new at-wills specifically for the _ranged_ Ranger? Are there any new heroic-tier feats specifically aimed at the _ranged_ Ranger? Are there any paragon paths specifically aimed at the _ranged_ Ranger?

He's not asking about the class as a whole; he's asking if the book provides anything new for a _specific build._


----------



## JPL

Kobold Avenger said:


> What are some of the beast companions?  I assume it's things like wolves, badgers, cougars and horses at lower levels, but what about Epic levels?  Anything really neat?




From the previews, it looks like your choices are always going to be bear, boar, cat, lizard, raptor, serpent, spider, or wolf.  

You might describe your "wolf" as a regular wolf, a dire wolf, a fairy hound, a hyena, or whatever, but the stats remain the same and improve as the ranger goes up in level.  At 30th level, you might still have that same falcon you had at 1st level --- but it will no more be an average bird of prey than a 30th level character is an average adventurer.


----------



## Bagpuss

tonpa said:


> BTW: how is the art by your opinion? Nice portraits by any change?




The art work is of a standard you got in the PHB, nothing has struck me as glaringly bad (some pieces in the PHB did).

There is plenty of art like a picture for each paragon path, chapter openings like in the PHB, (some of it is reused from earlier sources, but very little).


----------



## Bagpuss

Inyssius said:


> Read the post. Are there any new at-wills specifically for the _ranged_ Ranger?




Not 1st level ones the only new 1st level at-wills are for the new Beast master ranger.



> Are there any new heroic-tier feats specifically aimed at the _ranged_ Ranger? Are there any paragon paths specifically aimed at the _ranged_ Ranger?




Yes, there is love for the ranged ranger, and for other builds from the PHB, but I'd say a good portion of each sections powers (Perhaps a 3rd, less so for feats) is designed to mainly to support the new build options. This is particularly easy to notice with the Ranger as a number of it's powers have the Beast keyword.


----------



## Bagpuss

Ibixat said:


> Did they by any chance expand the starting weapon proficiencies for any classes to cover any AV weapon types?




Not that I can see.



> And was there any Forgotten realms coverage in feats, Genasi or Drow etc, PHB had racial feats for the races, FRPG had racials for drow and genasi etc but are we going to only get racials for PHB races in Martial power and so forth?




Not a huge amount, (compared to general or PHB races) but they do get a look in there is a Rogue Paragon path for Drow for example.

I suppose this cross-marketing makes the DnDInsiders Compendium look more worth it if you don't want to buy every sourcebook for every little bit of information.


----------



## Bagpuss

DarthMouth said:


> Can u give a little light in those ones? just curious to see what a fighter can do in -utilitie at will- basis ...
> Other classes get some also?




The second level Utility At Will a fighter gets lets him move around an adjacent opponent without provoking OA from that opponent so long as he remains adjacent.

Rangers also get some none-1st level at-wills, I've not checked the other classes.

I'm seeing a lot of questions about the Warlord, I haven't got to that section yet, but I will try and answer those questions later tonight.


----------



## Nikosandros

Nikosandros said:


> Are there any ranged powers for the fighter?



Trying one more time...


----------



## Caliber

Nikosandros said:


> Trying one more time...




Or the Warlord! Any ranger powers for the Fighter or Warlord? 

Also, thanks a ton for this!


----------



## thecasualoblivion

The Fighter's big class ability requires being adjacent, so I don't think having Ranged powers really accomplishes anything. If you want to shoot people, you're better off playing a Ranger. Javelins, Handaxes, and Throwing Hammers are plenty ranged enough for Mr. Fighter.

Warlord on the other hand, might be interesting with a few powers that work with ranged attacks, even if they are limited to heavy thrown weapons.


----------



## James McMurray

I can see lots of room for ranged attacks for the fighter. Something along the lines of a daily that let him make an OA with a heavy thrown weapon would be nice, as would anything that lets him knock an enemy prone at range.


----------



## thecasualoblivion

James McMurray said:


> I can see lots of room for ranged attacks for the fighter. Something along the lines of a daily that let him make an OA with a heavy thrown weapon would be nice, as would anything that lets him knock an enemy prone at range.




That isn't really what the Fighter does. What the Fighter does is to stand next to things and dominate them with Combat Superiority and Combat Challenge. The Fighter is fairly generic if you look solely at his powers, its these class features that make the Fighter special, and they emphatically do not work with ranged attacks. Choosing ranged powers as a Fighter is an incredibly weak choice as it ignores your most powerful abilities.

Again, if you want to be a ranged character, play a ranged character. The 4E Fighter class, aside from being able to use heavy thrown weapons when forced to, is not a ranged character. 

I don't see why the title "Fighter" is so important to some people.


----------



## James McMurray

I'm not saying make a ranged focused fighter. I'm saying make a few options that let the fighter use his defender role at range. A 1/day ranged OA means he gets a huge bonus to hit, marks someone, and stops their movement even if they're a skirmisher with fly 10. A ranged attack that knocks someone prone means that if someone manages to unstick themselves he can knock them down and keep them nearby.


----------



## WalterKovacs

James McMurray said:


> I'm not saying make a ranged focused fighter. I'm saying make a few options that let the fighter use his defender role at range. A 1/day ranged OA means he gets a huge bonus to hit, marks someone, and stops their movement even if they're a skirmisher with fly 10. A ranged attack that knocks someone prone means that if someone manages to unstick themselves he can knock them down and keep them nearby.




Once you get into scenarios involving flying monsters, etc ... the fighter is better off getting himself a mount that is able to hover, and thus getting himself next to the monsters.

They have shown the paragon path that enlarges the ability to make oas/combat challenge at reach. Also, multiclassing could give a fighter [especially one that may be going str/dex for use with the lightly armored tempest] access to ranged attacks that knock prone ... perhaps not str based though.

There is also the net/bola from the gladiator article. With the proper training, either of them will slow/immobilize a creature. And a flying creature unable to hover needs to move a certain ammount each turn to stay in the air.

Not to mention, the rest of the party can also help to bring someone down for the fighter to come after.


----------



## thecasualoblivion

Any power/tactical choice that forgoes the use of Combat Challenge and Combat Superiority is inherently a weaker choice for a Fighter to take. A ranged attack forgoes those.


----------



## Ian O'Rourke

I realise there is a Beast Master build option now for the Ranger which assumes you are a melee Ranger.

Is having a Pet completely useless and pointless for a Ranger using a bow?


----------



## Mirtek

Bagpuss said:


> If people have specific questions before then I'll answer what I can.



Any new 1h heavy blades? Or any heavy blade feats attainable without high Str/Dex? 

PS: Yes, I a swordmage curious if I can get something out of MP


----------



## Sitara

I have a question thats relevant to a curent pc of mine:

The fighter has a dual weild option. Now I am wondering, is it possible to get these dual weild powers using multiclass feats? (I play a paladin and would liek to dual weild twin warhammers via fighter multi feat.) And is there any reason to take this over a ranger multi feat?


----------



## James McMurray

thecasualoblivion said:


> Any power/tactical choice that forgoes the use of Combat Challenge and Combat Superiority is inherently a weaker choice for a Fighter to take. A ranged attack forgoes those.




Congratulations on your numerical superiority. Some of us are here to play a game, not crunch out the maximum efficiency. But I can see we won't agree, so I'll leave you to your straight jacketed mindset and traipse away happily in my tactically challenged one. 

I will point out though, since apparently you weren't reading, that one of the abilities I proposed most definitely did not forego the fighter class abilities. There is room for many others like it which would expand the fighter's abilities (not unlike the dual-wielding path).

Luckily (for one of us) neither of us matters in the grand scheme of things, and WotC will do what WotC will do.


----------



## WalterKovacs

James McMurray said:


> Congratulations on your numerical superiority. Some of us are here to play a game, not crunch out the maximum efficiency. But I can see we won't agree, so I'll leave you to your straight jacketed mindset and traipse away happily in my tactically challenged one.
> 
> I will point out though, since apparently you weren't reading, that one of the abilities I proposed most definitely did not forego the fighter class abilities. There is room for many others like it which would expand the fighter's abilities (not unlike the dual-wielding path).
> 
> Luckily (for one of us) neither of us matters in the grand scheme of things, and WotC will do what WotC will do.




Weren't you, in another thread, explaining how horrible the choice of Sneak of Shadows was for bards who would need to use a subpar weapon to use the sneak attack?


----------



## LittleElvis

James McMurray said:


> Congratulations on your numerical superiority. Some of us are here to play a game, not crunch out the maximum efficiency. But I can see we won't agree, so I'll leave you to your straight jacketed mindset and traipse away happily in my tactically challenged one.




Well you really told him how to more correctly have fun!


----------



## thecasualoblivion

James McMurray said:


> Congratulations on your numerical superiority. Some of us are here to play a game, not crunch out the maximum efficiency. But I can see we won't agree, so I'll leave you to your straight jacketed mindset and traipse away happily in my tactically challenged one.
> 
> Luckily (for one of us) neither of us matters in the grand scheme of things, and WotC will do what WotC will do.




What I'm saying is that putting these powers under the Fighter banner makes a false choice. Because of the lack of synergy with the Fighter's core abilities(marking and movement denial), any ranged attack is inherently a bad choice and a trap build. 4E does not offer bad choices and trap builds.

If you want to use ranged attacks as a Fighter, there are a lot of ways to do this using the existing system:

1. Use heavy thrown weapons and basic ranged attacks. This works perfectly well for all Fighters, and Javelins are ranged 10 which likely is more than you'll ever need.

2. Boost Dex at every level and you are dangerous with basic ranged attacks with the bow.

3. In addition to #2, multiclass into Ranger and take Ranger powers. If you want to go further, Paragon Multiclass into Ranger.


What I am saying is that there SHOULDN'T be ranged attacks in the Fighter class, because the what the Fighter is about is Combat Superiority and Combat Challenge, which require you to be adjacent.


----------



## WalterKovacs

Sitara said:


> I have a question thats relevant to a curent pc of mine:
> 
> The fighter has a dual weild option. Now I am wondering, is it possible to get these dual weild powers using multiclass feats? (I play a paladin and would liek to dual weild twin warhammers via fighter multi feat.) And is there any reason to take this over a ranger multi feat?




Any of the at-will/encounter/daily/utility powers would be received the same way via multiclass feats/paragon multiclassing ... so it would ultimately be comparing the powers as to which is better.

It would probably depend on the paragon paths/higher level multiclass feats.

If nothing else ... the ranger paragon paths have, so far, all been inaccessible to non-rangers [even mc'd rangers], so a two weapon fighter paragon class might be accesible.


----------



## LittleElvis

If I may please ask for a small bone to be thrown this way, how does the new Rogue at-will work? Thanks in advance.


----------



## The Little Raven

Sitara said:


> And is there any reason to take this over a ranger multi feat?




You want more Defender-oriented powers than Striker-oriented powers is the only reason I can see.


----------



## James McMurray

WalterKovacs said:


> Weren't you, in another thread, explaining how horrible the choice of Sneak of Shadows was for bards who would need to use a subpar weapon to use the sneak attack?




Yep.



LittleElvis said:


> Well you really told him how to more correctly have fun!




Actually, I told him how others have fun differently than he appears to. I at no point told him what he should do with his game.



thecasualoblivion said:


> What I'm saying is that putting these powers under the Fighter banner makes a false choice. Because of the lack of synergy with the Fighter's core abilities(marking and movement denial), any ranged attack is inherently a bad choice and a trap build. 4E does not offer bad choices and trap builds.




You're assuming these abilities will not be synergistic with the current fighter. If they aren't, you're right that they belong somewhere else. I've yet to see anything that says they would have to be, and have even proposed one power that would be very synergistic with the fighter's abilities.



> If you want to use ranged attacks as a Fighter, there are a lot of ways to do this using the existing system:




You're right. Then again, there are a lot of ways to hit somebody with a melee weapon in the PHB. I guess we didn't need Martial Power after all.  "We have choices" != "no more choices should be given."



> 1. Use heavy thrown weapons and basic ranged attacks. This works perfectly well for all Fighters, and Javelins are ranged 10 which likely is more than you'll ever need.




How does this let you do anything other than a basic attack, which would be the only reason for creating powers in the first place.



> 2. Boost Dex at every level and you are dangerous with basic ranged attacks with the bow.




Still basic attacks only.



> 3. In addition to #2, multiclass into Ranger and take Ranger powers. If you want to go further, Paragon Multiclass into Ranger.




You can't paragon into a ranger path, barring new ones in MP that don't require class abilities. Unless you meant to do full-on paragon multi-classing, which might be a decent choice, depending on MP's feats.

But even then, you're stuck having to pump dexterity despite a large number of good thrown weapons out there, in which case you're probably better off just being a rogue or ranger in the first place. The current system has no place for a Heavy Thrown specialist. An increased Fighter repertoire would be one way to rectify that (though definitely not the only one).



> What I am saying is that there SHOULDN'T be ranged attacks in the Fighter class, because the what the Fighter is about is Combat Superiority and Combat Challenge, which require you to be adjacent.




What I'm saying is that I disagree. A fighter's primary class abilities require being adjacent. Alternative class abilities and/or synergistic power design can easily change that.

Now, then? Nobody convinced by the other side yet? Didn't think so.


----------



## andarilhor

I have a doubt about the beast companions: They have any possibility of being mounts?

Thinking in a beast rider build


----------



## Drakhar

I'm curious as to how the companions damage stacks up compared to weapons, and if your choice of beast changes it.


----------



## AlexS

andarilhor said:


> I have a doubt about the beast companions: They have any possibility of being mounts?
> 
> Thinking in a beast rider build




I can't remember if it's been mentioned whether you can multiclass into a beastmaster, but if you can, I'm well up for this- Barbarian + Beastmaster= He-Man and Battlecat!


----------



## James McMurray

On topic: Can we get a little taste of the epic feats and/or powers?


----------



## prankster_dragon

What do classes have to give up to use the new options?  (for example, the Ranger loses Prime Shot and Combat Style to use the Beastmaster build, according to the previews).


----------



## Fifth Element

There's one question I think is on everyone's mind but no one has yet asked:

How much do you want for it?


----------



## JPL

andarilhor said:


> I have a doubt about the beast companions: They have any possibility of being mounts?
> 
> Thinking in a beast rider build




I'd bet a nickel that they are saving mounts for the paladins.


----------



## The Human Target

Gah you tricked me into thinking this was out now and I could go buy it! 

I'm interested the most in any Warlord info you can come up with, as I love the class in theory but thinks it kinda got the shaft in the PHB. 

Like other people have asked, any ranged powers?


----------



## andarilhor

AlexS said:


> I can't remember if it's been mentioned whether you can multiclass into a beastmaster, but if you can, I'm well up for this- Barbarian + Beastmaster= He-Man and Battlecat!




AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
Now I need to remove this image of my mind surgically.



JPL said:


> I'd bet a nickel that they are saving mounts for the paladins.




Paladins will have special mounts, no doubt, but it´s possible others to have mount abilities too.
In the Dragon article to gladiators, there is a feat (almost hidden) which brings abilities to warlords and fighters mounted.


----------



## thundershot

I have a player who has a wizard with the Ranger multi-class feats. Is there anything in the Paragon multi-class feats that would possibly give him an animal companion? He really wants one...


----------



## Bagpuss

Caliber said:


> Or the Warlord! Any ranger powers for the Fighter or Warlord?




Sorry been busy having a life... 

I'll answer this one before bed.

Fighter - No, at least not that I spotted from a quick flick through, I may have missed one, but certainly a Ranged Fighter is not really an option.

Warlord - Yes plenty although most aren't attacks, some are but they are restricted to heavy thrown weapons.


----------



## Bagpuss

thundershot said:


> I have a player who has a wizard with the Ranger multi-class feats. Is there anything in the Paragon multi-class feats that would possibly give him an animal companion? He really wants one...




No, Beast Mastery is not provided through one of the new multiclass feats. Saying that, I'm sure you could come up with a house rule for a familiar based on the rules for animal companions. I wouldn't be surprised to see this appear in the Arcane Powers book when it comes out.


----------



## Roger

1.  Bagpuss -- thanks!

2.  Thread hijackers -- boo!

3.  A heads-up:  Looks like a lot a bit of Martial Power has already made it into the DDI Compendium (mostly ranger/beastmaster things.)



Cheers,
Roger


----------



## Bagpuss

Rechan said:


> Are there any powers that let a Warlord lead from the back ranks, or do all the powers pretty much preclude the Warlord using a melee attack and/or being adjacent to the ally/enemy?




There are Warlord powers that are Burst 10, Burst 5, and even ranged attack ones, the large burst ones are not attacks, but allow you to aid allies in that range. So yes you can lead from the back, but still most of the new warlord powers are Melee Str vs AC.



> Do all the Encounter powers play off the class features in Martial Power?




No. I'd say (very rough estimate) about a 3rd of powers key off new stuff from the Martial Powers book, the rest are either feature independent or use existing ones from the PHB.



> Is there a real difference between the beast companions? I.e. "Wolves can knock foes prone", or any other sort of abilities beyond their defenses, HP and basic attacks?




There is little difference, other than stats, damage, attack modifiers, etc. And not a huge range in them. However some *Beast *powers work better with certain beast than others, so you get some additional differentiation there.


----------



## Bagpuss

Roger said:


> 3.  A heads-up:  Looks like a lot of Martial Power has already made it into the DDI Compendium.




Hardly (at least not if you aren't a subscriber) I did a search for "fighter" powers didn't find any powers, but one Epic Destiny, and one Paragon Path, so less than a 10th.


----------



## andarilhor

Hi, Bagpuss, any info about beast companions being mounts?


----------



## Fallen Seraph

Bagpuss, if you would be so kind could you give a brief overview of what the Rogue gets, especially what the Paragon Paths are like (is there anything in any section of the new Rogue stuff that is oriented toward throwing daggers (one of my current player's character concept))?


----------



## Rechan

Bagpuss said:


> There are Warlord powers that are Burst 10, Burst 5, and even ranged attack ones, the large burst ones are not attacks, but allow you to aid allies in that range. So yes you can lead from the back, but still most of the new warlord powers are Melee Str vs AC.



I think the Warlord in my game may be very interested at the ranged ones. He feels like he sucks, or restrained by being in melee. Some ranged power he can use when he throws his shield is a definite bonus.



> No. I'd say (very rough estimate) about a 3rd of powers key off new stuff from the Martial Powers book, the rest are either feature independent or use existing ones from the PHB.



That's very excellent. I was hoping that we'd see some build-neutral and PHB-modding material.  



> There is little difference, other than stats, damage, attack modifiers, etc. And not a huge range in them. However some *Beast *powers work better with certain beast than others, so you get some additional differentiation there.



Yeah, I've seen those in the excerpts. Oh well. 

Thank you very much, Bagpuss.


----------



## Victim

So are any of the Epic Destinies worth taking compared to Demigod?


----------



## Rechan

One excerpt talked about the two "builds" for rogues (beyond the Class feature: Ruthless Ruffian). We saw a detail of the Aerial rogue (powers that are about moving around a lot, requiring training in Acrobatics).

What does the Cutthroat-related powers do? Are they all related to the intimidate skill and imposing penalties via the Rattling keyword?


----------



## Voadam

Is there an option for rogue powers working off of int?

I was surprised that the crafty rogue style archetype was not a supported build in the PH.


----------



## Bagpuss

andarilhor said:


> Hi, Bagpuss, any info about beast companions being mounts?




There is nothing to say they can't be a mount, but looking at the creatures I would not have thought it practical. Perhaps a halfling on a wolf? I guess it would be up to your DM.


----------



## Rechan

Voadam said:


> Is there an option for rogue powers working off of int?
> 
> I was surprised that the crafty rogue style archetype was not a supported build in the PH.



I think the Bard ganked the rogue and stole his stuff.

(Thought you'd heard the last of that one, eh?)


----------



## Matopi

I know it's a Martial book, but any interesting (or uninteresting, for that matter) feats with an INT requirement?  The game is woefully short, atm, on intelligence-based feats.


----------



## Cadfan

Bagpuss said:


> Hardly (at least not if you aren't a subscriber) I did a search for "fighter" powers didn't find any powers, but one Epic Destiny, and one Paragon Path, so less than a 10th.



I think people are just seeing the preview material.  That's all I can find.


----------



## Lokathor

Can you say anything about the theme of each paragon path? I'm particularly interested in Godslayer... sounds like it might be very soon appropriate for a game I'm in.


----------



## Bagpuss

*On Rogues*

If anything Rogues appear to be the red headed stepchild of the Martial Powers book. While they get roughly the same coverage, they only get one new 1st level At-Will, basically Deft Strike without the shift, but Rattling. One New Class Feature, and the two builds, builds really don't mean much they are just a guide to new players really. It's a little disappointing* (but only when compared to the additional 1st level options the other classes get). 

There is nothing there to make Int important to a Rogue.

*see later post.


----------



## Plane Sailing

I've forked all the hijacking posts off to a thread here http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...discussing-fighters-forked-martial-power.html

Cheers


----------



## Bagpuss

I'm really off to bed now, tomorrow I'll try to take a look at the Epic Destinies. But as a taster here what a level 30 Legendary General's Feature is.

*Unyielding Company:* While you have at least 1 hit point, allies within 20 squares do not fall unconcious at 0 hit points or fewer and cannot die because of negative hit points. (They can still die from three failed death saves).



Lets see you stop a level 30 multiclass Warforged Barbarian (Warlord), Frenzied Berserker - Legendary General leading a army of Warforged, while in a deathless frenzy.

None of us fall unconscious until we fail death saves, but we all take 10 on death saves...


----------



## Bagpuss

Matopi said:


> I know it's a Martial book, but any interesting (or uninteresting, for that matter) feats with an INT requirement?




Two one Paragon, one Epic, both Warlord (but then that's to be expected).


----------



## Atlatl Jones

What does the Battlerager Vigor build give a fighter?  What does a fighter give up to get the battlerager or tempest builds?

What do the new polearm feats do?


----------



## Bagpuss

*To be honest there is nothing I've read so far that has really disappointed me as such, I'm just a greedy sod who wants more of this quality of stuff. So far this book has done nothing but impressed me. I was worried that there would be inevitable power creep with a book of this sort, but I'm not really seeing that. Sure some people will find some powerful combinations but really I'm impressed with how stacking, economy of actions and other issues from 3rd Ed have been handled. I've not found anything I would want to ban as a DM yet, where as in 3rd Ed I would easily find power creep with each new sourcebook.


----------



## Bagpuss

Atlatl Jones said:


> What does the Battlerager Vigor build give a fighter?  What does a fighter give up to get the battlerager or tempest builds?
> 
> What do the new polearm feats do?




I don't want to give away too much specifics, after all you really should buy the book, or check the DnD Compendium (since Battlerager and Tempest should appear there being 1st level options).


----------



## Atlatl Jones

Bagpuss said:


> I don't want to give away too much specifics, after all you really should buy the book, or check the DnD Compendium (since Battlerager and Tempest should appear there being 1st level options).



I already preordered the book.  How about a vague hint about what the battlerager build does?


----------



## Rechan

Atlatl Jones said:


> I already preordered the book.  How about a vague hint about what the battlerager build does?



From here:



> *BATTLERAGER VIGOR
> *Each time an enemy hits you with a melee or a close attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier (after the attack is resolved).
> 
> When you gain temporary hit points by hitting with an attack that has the invigorating keyword, those temporary hit points stack with any other temporary hit points you already have.
> 
> When wearing light armor or chainmail, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks whenever you have temporary hit points. This bonus increases to +2 if you’re wielding an axe, a hammer, a mace, or a pick.


----------



## Ranadiel

Bagpuss said:


> I'm really off to bed now, tomorrow I'll try to take a look at the Epic Destinies. But as a taster here what a level 30 Legendary General's Feature is.
> 
> *Unyielding Company:* While you have at least 1 hit point, allies within 20 squares do not fall unconcious at 0 hit points or fewer and cannot die because of negative hit points. (They can still die from three failed death saves).
> 
> 
> 
> Lets see you stop a level 30 multiclass Warforged Barbarian (Warlord), Frenzied Berserker - Legendary General leading a army of Warforged, while in a deathless frenzy.
> 
> None of us fall unconscious until we fail death saves, but we all take 10 on death saves...




Only one problem with that combo, which is that the power stops the moment the Legendary General reaches 0 or less HP. So even if he can keep fighting after reaching that point, everyone else loses the benefit. 

Although I'm sure that could lead to some interesting visuals as the leader takes one damage from some insignificant source(such as a bee sting) and all of his allies around him drop dead.


----------



## Imban

Ranadiel said:


> Only one problem with that combo, which is that the power stops the moment the Legendary General reaches 0 or less HP. So even if he can keep fighting after reaching that point, everyone else loses the benefit.
> 
> Although I'm sure that could lead to some interesting visuals as the leader takes one damage from some insignificant source(such as a bee sting) and all of his allies around him drop dead.




Yeah, but unless everyone else is at -(bloodied), he can just heal them (and himself) up. He IS a Warlord, after all.

It's not complete invincibility, but it does seem to make it astronomically unlikely that anything reasonable could ever defeat you.


----------



## ArmoredSaint

Are there any feats/powers that will improve my armour class?  Or any feats/powers that are for users of Heavy Armour only?


----------



## Gundark

What are the builds for each class?


----------



## tonpa

On the Racial side (I seem to be fond of these): Could you give us examples on these, maybe what kind of the fighter dargonborn paragon path is? Are the requirements race + any martial class or race + fighter for example? 

Second one: are there weapon specific powers for other classes than fighter and if so, could you give small example for warlord?

Cheers 

-Tonpa


----------



## evilgenius8000

Bagpuss said:


> *To be honest there is nothing I've read so far that has really disappointed me as such, I'm just a greedy sod who wants more of this quality of stuff. So far this book has done nothing but impressed me. I was worried that there would be inevitable power creep with a book of this sort, but I'm not really seeing that. Sure some people will find some powerful combinations but really I'm impressed with how stacking, economy of actions and other issues from 3rd Ed have been handled. I've not found anything I would want to ban as a DM yet, where as in 3rd Ed I would easily find power creep with each new sourcebook.




Hey, this is really great news! Thanks for mentioning this. (though i was probably going to get the book regardless, WotC's shenanigans in 3.5 still sting a little)


----------



## Bagpuss

ArmoredSaint said:


> Are there any feats/powers that will improve my armour class?




Plenty although most as you would expect are situational. There are also plenty that allow none Leader characters to aid their allies AC.

Actually one thing I liked about this book is that it seems that the roles seem a bit more blurred in some areas. The Fighter Defender for example, could become a bit more effective at damage but at the expense of some of his AC (Striker-like), or with feats/powers aid allies AC (Leader-like), yet still remains within their core role. 

Not sure if they is true for the other classes, although the Rogue getting *Rattling *powers means they are bit defender like giving an opponent negatives to attack roles.



> Or any feats/powers that are for users of Heavy Armour only?




Not looked through in that much detail.


----------



## Bagpuss

Gundark said:


> What are the builds for each class?




Not sure about the interests in builds since they have no impact on play, but I'll list them anyway.

Battlerager Fighter (Big brutal hitter)
Tempest Fighter (Two weapon Fighter)
Beastmaster Ranger (Beast Companion)
Aerialist Rogue (Fast moving)
Cutthroat Rogue (Intimidating rogue)
Bravura Warlord (Risky and Aggressive Tactics)
Resourceful Warlord (Exploits opponents weaknesses)

Of those only the Aerialist Rogue is focused on a Class Feature that appeared in the PHB.


----------



## Bagpuss

tonpa said:


> On the Racial side (I seem to be fond of these): Could you give us examples on these,




There are a lot of racial features like paragon paths (mentioned the Fighter ones earlier, and a Drow Rogue), An Eladrin Ranger (Blade Banshee) and Genasi Warlord (Concordant Leader) for a couple more examples. Plus plenty of feats that are racial.



> maybe what kind of the fighter dargonborn paragon path is?




It would suit any Fighter build to be honest, it improves their Dragon Breath and and bonuses when bloodied. It might even be worth taking for a none Fighter via the multiclass feat.



> Are the requirements race + any martial class or race + fighter for example?




All of the Paragon Paths (I think there are about 12 per martial class) usually require the martial class of the chapter they are in (although one or two are class A or class B, some are even Class A and B), the racial ones require race and class. Some class ones require you to have a particular class feature, but most are open to any build.



> Second one: are there weapon specific powers for other classes than fighter and if so, could you give small example for warlord?




Yes, as you can imagine there are many for the rogue limited to rogue weapons, ranger has some limited to ranged attacks or two weapons. The Warlord has some ranged powers limited to heavy thrown weapons. But most do not have requirements like that. That really remains a Fighter class schtick.


----------



## Flobby

So is Beastmaster the only new class ability option added to the Ranger? 
I don't suppose there is any ablities/powers that let them use thrown weapons...


----------



## Bagpuss

Flobby said:


> So is Beastmaster the only new class ability option added to the Ranger?




Yes but as I mentioned earlier it's probably only a 3rd of the new powers that have the Beast Keyword.



> I don't suppose there is any ablities/powers that let them use thrown weapons...




I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this, there are plenty of ranged powers in the Ranger section (just like there are in the PHB). Thrown Weapons count as ranged weapons for powers, so there is nothing to stop Rangers using thrown weapons before. Although you'd still have to use Dexterity when using a heavy thrown weapon because that's what the power says to use. I haven't notice an powers specifically giving a benefit for using a thrown weapon or requiring one (except the Warlord ranged powers).


----------



## Glimmin

Any information you can give about the halfling fighter paragon path, please?


----------



## thecasualoblivion

Could you give some more specific previews of the new multiclass feats?


----------



## Baumi

What does the Fighter have to give up for the two-weapon or berserk advantage?


----------



## Klaus

Anything (feat, paragon path) for an archaeologist-type rogue?

Any news on the skills side (new uses, for instance)?


----------



## Cadfan

Right now, all I really care about are the new at wills.

Hopefully the book will come out or be leaked to someone else early, and poor Bagpuss won't be hammered with so many questions.    I wonder if he quite knew what he was getting into.


----------



## Bagpuss

Baumi said:


> What does the Fighter have to give up for the two-weapon or berserk advantage?




The Fighter Weapon Talent Class Feature. 

So +1 to Attack Rolls really, although the Tempest gets that back with _off hand_ weapons, but if they use a pair of off hand weapons they will generally have lower damage dice.

Also both the Class Features work better with chainmail or lighter armour, so you are probably going to give up some AC as well.


----------



## Aoihasu

Was wondering some about the drow paragon and the godhunter do they carry any specific class requirements or such?. thanks in advance


----------



## Bagpuss

Glimmin said:


> Any information you can give about the halfling fighter paragon path, please?




It's called the Halfling Bounder and gives some additional mobility during combat.


----------



## Bagpuss

thecasualoblivion said:


> Could you give some more specific previews of the new multiclass feats?




I'm not going to be specific about feats or powers, since I don't think that it's fair to give information that could easily be used in play, beyond the excerpts WotC have already released. I think though it is pretty clear how they might work from my earlier response to someone's guess about them.


----------



## Bagpuss

Klaus said:


> Anything (feat, paragon path) for an archaeologist-type rogue?




Yes, you can duel wield hand crossbows so long as you have a long plaited ponytail and an oversized bosom.  Joking.

Not that I've noticed, what with powers and feats generally focused around combat it isn't something I would have expected to find either.



> Any news on the skills side (new uses, for instance)?




Not really, there are feats and powers that require you to be trained in a skill to use them, but no section on skills like you might have seen in a 3rd Ed splat book.


----------



## Rechan

What it looks like is that this is The Splat Book That Should Be. Far mroe "Splat" than 3e books.

That's good. Keep splats splatty.


----------



## Zsig

Rechan said:


> What it looks like is that this is The Splat Book That Should Be. Far mroe "Splat" than 3e books.
> 
> That's good. Keep splats splatty.




My thoughts exactly.


----------



## TerraDave

Bagpuss said:


> there are...powers that require you to be trained in a skill to use them




I think that is how 4E handles "new uses for skills".

Bagpuss, thanks for the info...and patience.


----------



## Bagpuss

I agree I'm almost as pleased by what they haven't put in, as much as what they have. The 3rd Ed splat books were too unfocused this does exactly what it says on the tin (erm cover). 

*Martial Power *no more no less (well I suppose the feats aren't Powers, but they are all tied to Martial classes).


----------



## Baumi

Are there some new feats/powers/paragon for the weaker PHB Weapons (staff, maces and picks) especially in the hands of a fighter? Also while light Blades rock in the hands of a rogue, is there something in there that make these weapons interesting for the other classes?


----------



## Kobold Avenger

What else is there for a fighter who specializes in polearms beyond the polearm master path?

Is there a way for someone multiclassing into rogue to sneak attack more than 1/encounter?  What about a way of using hunter's quarry more than 1/encounter for multiclassing?


----------



## walksamongstars

For fighter at-will abilities, I believe "Footwork Lure" has been mentioned in some of the preview material (Gladiator article I believe). Is there also a new at-will with the "invigorating" keyword to match up with the battlerager build?


----------



## Cadfan

The Fighter has:

Brash Strike
Crushing Surge
Dual Strike
Footwork Lure

We know that Dual Strike is the two weapon basic attack.  Footwork Lure allows you to shift somehow.  Good money is that Crushing Surge grants temporary hit points, and Brash Strike penalizes defenses in some way.  Possibly one is Invigorating, the other Rattling?


----------



## Dragonhelm

Perhaps I missed it, but is there a list of the new paragon paths?


----------



## Bagpuss

Cadfan said:


> The Fighter has:
> 
> Brash Strike
> Crushing Surge
> Dual Strike
> Footwork Lure
> 
> We know that Dual Strike is the two weapon basic attack.  Footwork Lure allows you to shift somehow.  Good money is that Crushing Surge grants temporary hit points, and Brash Strike penalizes defenses in some way.  Possibly one is Invigorating, the other Rattling?




Are you reading over my shoulder?


----------



## Bagpuss

Dragonhelm said:


> Perhaps I missed it, but is there a list of the new paragon paths?




Nope I listed the 10 Epic Destinies earlier but there are over 40 new paragon paths so I really could not be bothered listing them all. Sorry.


----------



## Dragonhelm

Bagpuss said:


> Nope I listed the 10 Epic Destinies earlier but there are about 48 new paragon paths so I really could not be bothered listing them all. Sorry.




Nah, it's cool.  That's certainly a lot!


----------



## Cadfan

Bagpuss said:


> Are you reading over my shoulder?



Heh, nope, but the Gladiator article contained feats that gave bonuses to certain at will powers.  Those are the four at will powers that were new.  So it seemed likely they were in Martial Power.  And based on the bonuses provided, and how they were phrased, I tried to work out what they did.

Like one of the bonuses for Footwork Lure was getting to shift an extra space under certain conditions.  So apparently Footwork Lure lets you shift in some way.  And Crushing Surge got a bonus to its attack roll if you didn't have temporary hit points, which suggested that it might give you temporary hit points, because that would make the power make more sense.  And Brash Strike had a bonus so that it "also" gave a penalty to Will, which suggested that it penalized something else already.


----------



## Bagpuss

Kobold Avenger said:


> What else is there for a fighter who specializes in polearms beyond the polearm master path?




You mean like feats or powers that need them? Then yes in both cases. There are feats for polearm users and there are some powers that require a reach weapon and others that are improved by having one. 



> Is there a way for someone multiclassing into rogue to sneak attack more than 1/encounter?




Not how I expect you would want no. There isn't a way you can deal sneak attack damage more than once per encounter, but there is a feat that lets you deal your sneak attack damage to every target you hit with an encounter power (which only counts as one use of Sneak Attack). So a multiclass character would benefit from this feat and deal multiple amounts of sneak attack damage, just on the one occasion.



> What about a way of using hunter's quarry more than 1/encounter for multiclassing?




No.


----------



## Drakhar

Drakhar said:


> I'm curious as to how the companions damage stacks up compared to weapons, and if your choice of beast changes it.




Cause I think it was missed the first time.


----------



## Bagpuss

Drakhar said:


> I'm curious as to how the companions damage stacks up compared to weapons, and if your choice of beast changes it.




They range from 1d6 to 1d12 with most being 1d8, so yes your choice of beast does make a difference in the damage dice, and it is comparable to weapon damage.


----------



## Rechan

> Not how I expect you would want no. There isn't a way you can deal sneak attack damage more than once per encounter, but there is a feat that lets you deal your sneak attack damage to every target you hit with an encounter power (which only counts as one use of Sneak Attack). So a multiclass character would benefit from this feat and deal multiple amounts of sneak attack damage, just on the one occasion.



Damn. No body give that feat to a rogue. That's nasty.


----------



## Bagpuss

Rechan said:


> Damn. No body give that feat to a rogue. That's nasty.




It's not nasty it's Epic! 

Anyway, I think that's enough for now, I want to actually read it properly rather than just scan for tip bits.

To sum up I'm really impressed with it, the focus, the balance, the sheer number of new options. So big thumbs up from me. 

I'm just a little frustrated that I'm currently playing a cleric, how long is it until Divine Power?


----------



## WalterKovacs

Cool to here there is a drow rogue paragon [although it's to be expected]. That's going to make one of my players happy ... he's at about level 7 going on 8 now, so should get Martial Power in time before they hit Paragon tier.


----------



## thecasualoblivion

Bagpuss said:


> I'm just a little frustrated that I'm currently playing a cleric, how long is it until Divine Power?




Divine Power, July 2009

Sorry, its the third one listed. Arcane Power is set for April.


----------



## Klaus

Anything for the Mounted Warrior archetype? Powers? Feats?

Can a Beastmaster take a "dragon" as a companion? What about a "mount"?

Can a non-Ranger get a companion?


----------



## Rechan

I am chomping at the bit for Arcane power. I think we definitely need more stuff for Wizards.


----------



## Lokathor

You forgot to mention more about the Godkiller...


----------



## Cadfan

Heh, I don't think he "forgot."


----------



## firesnakearies

Thanks a ton for all of the info, Bagpuss!

I'm really excited about this book.  I'm glad they did Martial Power first.  Martial-type characters have always been my very favorite.

Hmm.  With this book, and the new gladiator information, I want to run an all-martial character campaign focused on gladiatorial themes.


----------



## The_Fan

Klaus said:


> Anything for the Mounted Warrior archetype? Powers? Feats?
> 
> Can a Beastmaster take a "dragon" as a companion? What about a "mount"?
> 
> Can a non-Ranger get a companion?




I don't have it, but I'm going to venture a guess and say that "dragon" would be covered by "lizard." It'd just be described as a sort of a drake or pseudodragon or something.


----------



## AlphaDucky5

I'm just curious how on earth did you get the book so early??? isn't it not coming out for another few weeks?



Sorry if this is a n00b question or something.....



Thanks.


AD5


----------



## Tarrl

Just curious and sorry if this has been answered. Is there anything in the MP book for Swordmages???
thanks


----------



## Rechan

Tarrl said:


> Just curious and sorry if this has been answered. Is there anything in the MP book for Swordmages???
> thanks



That's an Arcane power source. This is a Martial power book. So I doubt it. 

However, that does bring me to a question. Bagpuss, you mentioned a variety of multi-class feats. The new Class Acts: Warlord article has multi-class feats for a Warlord multi-ing into a Warlock (they allow the Warlord to curse and do various effects, as well as use reach weapons as a warlock implement). 

Do any such feats that play off of multi-class combinations exist in the book (rather than feats that just allow you to get class features)?


----------



## Perun

Thank you for sharing the information with us, Bagpuss!

Are there any weapon-related (as in, functioning better with certain weapon groups) explits at levels other than 3rd, 13th, and 23rd? 

Also, are there any such exploits for weapon groups that were "forgotten" in the PH (namely the staff)?

Are there any staff-related feats in the book?

And, I believe one of the designers mentioned alternate multiclass feats. Are there any options that would make a staff-using multiclass wizard/fighter build viable?

Thank you in advance.

Regards.


----------



## Rechan

Perun. I just wanted to let you know that the Gladiator article has a feat which allows you to treat a Staff as a double weapon (as per the weapons in the Adventurer's Vault).


----------



## Bagpuss

*I'm not going to comment any more on the content of the book*, I think I've provided plenty of spoilers, and some of the questions now are getting more into details about mechanics which I don't think would be fair to release.

I think it's enough now to say I am very happy with the content of the book. I'll recommend it to anyone that plays (or might play in the future) a 4th Ed Martial character.


----------



## SnowBlood

do rogues get dual wielding options as well?


----------



## Tarrl

Thanks for the question answered and thanks for all the info provided.

T


----------



## Shroomy

Yes, thanks for all the info.  I'm not sure I can wait the 1 1/2 weeks for this book now; I may have to upgrade my Amazon shipping.


----------



## Shadeydm

Thanks for taking the time to share Bagpuss!


----------



## Lord Mhoram

Bagpuss said:


> *I'm not going to comment any more on the content of the book*, I think I've provided plenty of spoilers, and some of the questions now are getting more into details about mechanics which I don't think would be fair to release.
> 
> I think it's enough now to say I am very happy with the content of the book. I'll recommend it to anyone that plays (or might play in the future) a 4th Ed Martial character.




Thanks for all the info you did give us. I appreciate the time and effort to get us the info. I am planning on getting this right away.


----------



## thundershot

If I didn't know any better, I'd say WOTC sent Bagpuss the book early to help get people excited about it. I know *I* want it now... 



Chris


----------



## firesnakearies

Yep, I'll definitely be getting it ASAP.


----------



## gamersgambit

Just a friendly thank you to Bagpuss.  As a retail store owner, I am often frustrated by people who get their books early online and post the details leading my customers to order online, believing (mostly falsely) that they'll get the book early if they order from someone other than me.

And a hopeful suggestion to the folks out there who have LGSes near them:  support your FLGS, please, and pick up the book there.  These are some rough times for everyone, but especially for small specialty retail stores that do gaming stuff primarily, and buying from a retail store is going to make the difference for a lot of us.  Yeah, you can buy from an online company, but you can definately *get* the item on the day it comes street-legal from a store and you are buying, most often, from people who actually care about supporting the hobby.


----------



## Cadfan

While I don't give a crap about supporting local gaming stores as some sort of moral or ethical or "the good of the hobby" type issue, I will say that in my experience, buying from a gaming store will usually get you the book earlier than buying online.  Once in a while an online store will screw up and give you the book before the release date, but a competent gaming store will give you the book on the release date, every time.  Online won't.


----------



## Imban

Bagpuss got his directly from WotC due to special circumstances, too, rather than some sort of early order. The only tried-and-true method I know of for getting early releases of books is to attend conventions, really, and even then only for some companies. Like White Wolf.


----------



## firesnakearies

While I really love the -idea- of supporting the local gaming store, it's really a financial no-go.  I have no idea how gaming stores are even going to stay in business now that the Internet is such an easy, cheap means of getting books and other supplies.

Gaming stores are great, but it's not like the old days, where we NEEDED them in order to get the gaming goodies.  Buying from a store now when the Internet makes so much more sense would essentially be an act of pure charity.

Now, my FLGS wants me to pay them $29.95 for _Martial Power_ (for example), plus the $10 or so in gasoline to drive there and back, and the hour of my time to run the errand.

_Buy.com_ will ship the book right to my door, and all I pay is $17.79, with shipping for free.

That's a tough sell, there.  It's not like my FLGS is saving starving children or something.  If I'm going to just give extra money away for no benefit to myself, there are plenty of non-profit organizations that I support.

Now, if these stores move into a business model in which they can offer things the Internet cannot, such as a really cool venue to hang out and game, highly informed and helpful employees and stellar personal service, maybe incorporating coffee/food, or hosting lots of cool events . . . then it becomes a lot more reasonable to ask me to buy my books there.

I mean, if I'm going to the store frequently ANYWAY, if it's an important community locale for me, then I'd feel almost obligated to buy my gaming stuff from them.

But most stores aren't providing much "exclusive content" as far as I've seen.  I'm sorry, but I've got to stick with my 50-60% savings for now.


----------



## Kobold Avenger

firesnakearies said:


> Now, if these stores move into a business model in which they can offer things the Internet cannot, such as a really cool venue to hang out and game, highly informed and helpful employees and stellar personal service, maybe incorporating coffee/food, or hosting lots of cool events . . . then it becomes a lot more reasonable to ask me to buy my books there.



A lot of stores I've gone to have a gaming room at least, and they do sell comics which I generally buy at least 1 per week, which means I'll be at one at least once per week.

But I agree that more of them should offer more.


----------



## GMforPowergamers

I game at my local store every week, sometimes twice a week, so it is a no brainer for me...saving a few bucks isn't worth losseing a cool place to play...


----------



## Fifth Element

firesnakearies said:


> I have no idea how gaming stores are even going to stay in business now that the Internet is such an easy, cheap means of getting books and other supplies.



Eh, you can get pretty much anything online these days, and there is still an abundance of brick & mortar stores of all kinds. Obviously certain products and sectors don't fit well with an online model, but many people obviously still prefer to shop in a physical location. Even people our age.

It's an easy choice for me. The manager at my FLGS (and it is very F, and L) plays in one of my D&D groups. So while you might think I would feel pressure to buy there even if it costs more, I actually prefer it. He can do things like reserve a copy for me, to make sure it's there when I'm in to buy it. And I can know precisely when something has arrived. And we can have a nice chat while I'm there, something my computer is still pretty bad at.


----------



## Cadfan

firesnakearies said:


> Now, my FLGS wants me to pay them $29.95 for _Martial Power_ (for example), plus the $10 or so in gasoline to drive there and back, and the hour of my time to run the errand.
> 
> _Buy.com_ will ship the book right to my door, and all I pay is $17.79, with shipping for free.



$10???  If my gaming store was a 150 mile round trip, I wouldn't go there either.


----------



## Badwe

the 10$ quote is going to depend on his vehicle and what kind of gas costs at the time.  back in the summer gas was 4$ a gallon, and old beater can get 15mpg if it's not exactly brand new.  At 37.5 miles, depending on how much freeway time we're talking, it could concievably take about an hour.  Of course, any improvement in gas price or mpg would inflate the distance traveled, but if it's an hour total to visit, if it was all freeway at 60mph, he couldn't have traveled more than 30 miles each way. 

Then again, maybe he was just using a "Big Round Number (TM)"


----------



## Victim

Maybe the traffic just sucks.


----------



## JeffB

gamersgambit said:


> And a hopeful suggestion to the folks out there who have LGSes near them:  support your FLGS, please, and pick up the book there.




No thanks. My former LGS = I'm charged full price to wait around until the "staff" are done playing warhammer with their buddies to help me. That store went out of business, thankfully.



> people who actually care about supporting the hobby.




My concern is supporting my family, but thanks for the lame attempt at a guilt trip


----------



## WalterKovacs

In general, I support my FLGS becaue it is my gaming shop ... not just where I pick up supplies, but where I actually play games twice a week. Providing the venue/neutral ground to meet up and play with people is really the biggest selling feature. Of course the person that works there being pretty cool helps as well.


----------



## Bagpuss

gamersgambit said:


> Just a friendly thank you to Bagpuss.  As a retail store owner, I am often frustrated by people who get their books early online and post the details leading my customers to order online, believing (mostly falsely) that they'll get the book early if they order from someone other than me.




From experience online ordering always seems to take longer for me than going to a store. In the UK Amazon is often weeks behind on release dates. If I wanted it early I'd go to a store.

Still with the price of parking (£4), and tunnel fees (£2.80), not even looking at fuel it costs me easily $10+ just to visit a store. Then stores always sell at RRP, where as Amazon passes on the saving from the weak dollar (not so weak anymore). Retails stores in the UK get screwed because they are tied to the RRP, and the UK hates the car.


----------



## Cadfan

Getting to my local gaming store costs me 80 cents, tops.


----------



## Charwoman Gene

When is Primal Power coming out!!! I need more options for my Shaman!!!


----------



## That One Guy

Thanks for posting so much information!


----------



## GMforPowergamers

Charwoman Gene said:


> When is Primal Power coming out!!! I need more options for my Shaman!!!




next week...along with psionic power so I can upgrade my mind knife...


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Cadfan said:


> Getting to my local gaming store costs me 80 cents, tops.




It would cost me nothing. I already own a bike. 

But Amazon or Dragonworld are still easier for me... So I support my hobby by ensuring that an online shop keeps making sales.


----------



## Hawke

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> It would cost me nothing. I already own a bike.




Time (opportunity cost), Calorie costs, wear and tear on your joints and bike parts, potential pollutants inhaled, and the risk of the ultimate cost (death) is higher. =) Absolutely those costs might outweigh the dollar cost of gasoline and car maintenance, but it simply isn't true that there's no costs! Everything costs something and it isn't always expressible in currency.  

Back to the book - I'm eager to get it! I'm prolly going to order online and hope it ships a bit early. Downside is I want both a print copy to thumb through and a digital copy to make copy&pasting powers onto my charsheet a little easier. The more I think of it, it'd be nice if some of the digital retailers offered really good discounts provided you purchased both at the same time. Adventurer's Vault might have been worth the digital only, but I think I'll go with the book-form for this one.


----------



## Vic_Sage

Anyone else tired of the ing guilt trip  about people buying stuff online?


----------



## eleventh

I was hoping to know if there were any more INT-based feats for the martial classes. If this has already been asked and answered, I apologize and would appreciate a redirect.


----------



## Protagonist

There are 3 LGS in my town, none of which is even borderline F. My g/f even refuses to go to one of them due to the *creepy employees. They are all very expensive (even in contrast to other local shops I've been to in Germany) and 2 have barely any items in stock / take ages to order s.th. Not to mention the one time I ordered a OOTS book from one of them. I heard "we'll get it soon" every other week for nearly 3 months.  When I finally checked back another month later they told me that it arrived a week ago, but that they accidentally sold my reserved copy to s.o. else....

I don't mind paying a bit more in order to support a local shop if I get any incentive of doing so: friendly atmosphere  or good support or both.
Over the last 10 years I have lived near 5 different shops so far and only one of them was a F(!)LGS.
I gladly pay more at local shops for other stuff (piercing jewellery, computer parts etc.) because I get good, friendly service. If the LGS here were better I wouldn't order online  from Dragonworld. (Excellent service there btw.)

* think unwashed, drooling, staring dorks


----------



## WalterKovacs

eleventh said:


> I was hoping to know if there were any more INT-based feats for the martial classes. If this has already been asked and answered, I apologize and would appreciate a redirect.




The only ones that are in the book are for warlords.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...i-have-martial-powers-book-4.html#post4536576


----------



## Jhaelen

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> But Amazon or Dragonworld are still easier for me... So I support my hobby by ensuring that an online shop keeps making sales.



Actually, Dragonworld is also a local game store (located in Hamburg).

I think (almost) all of the bigger FLGS that still exist (in Germany) have an online presence as well.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Jhaelen said:


> Actually, Dragonworld is also a local game store (located in Hamburg).



 For me it's effectively an online shop, but I think one of my players was there once.


----------



## dammitbiscuit

So, you've stated that there is no material in the book FOR a paladin. However, paladins, swordmages and battle clerics are very martial classes. Most of the feats in the preview list require 'any martial class'. Is there any good stuff in the book that other weapon-wielding classes can USE without being forced to multiclass? (multiclassing, at least, would make you a member of both classes, which would then let you take the feats but only if you don't want to multiclass into a non-martial class)


----------



## Lizard

dammitbiscuit said:


> So, you've stated that there is no material in the book FOR a paladin. However, paladins, swordmages and battle clerics are very martial classes. Most of the feats in the preview list require 'any martial class'. Is there any good stuff in the book that other weapon-wielding classes can USE without being forced to multiclass? (multiclassing, at least, would make you a member of both classes, which would then let you take the feats but only if you don't want to multiclass into a non-martial class)




Well, Paladins and Clerics aren't Martial -- they're Divine. Swordmages are Arcane.

3.5 used 'non class' based prereqs for most feat; with a few rare exceptions, you needed an "ability", not a class -- there were few, if any, "rogue" feats; there were feats which required "Must to precision damage". It was perfectly possible for a Wizard with a BAB of +8 to take Improved Critical (Dagger). Not sure why he WOULD, but he COULD. 

4e, on the other hand, silos classes very much, esp WRT powers. Many feats are "Must be THIS CLASS", and powers, of course, are not shared among classes except by multiclassing. So even if you think of a Paladin as being "martial", if it doesn't draw from the Martial power source, there's likely to be nothing in Martial Power for him, except, as you note, via multiclassing. You can't build a character who is a little bit of this and a little bit of that anymore; your class and build (and, no, builds are NOT optional guidelines -- they're hardwired into the system. (Artful Dodger/Brawny Rogue, *Pact Warlock, Implement Choice, etc)) pretty much define the path your character will take for life. You only get choices when WOTC decides to release a new build, and then you start over from level 1 -- for example, I doubt a 2-weapon ranger can EVER learn any of the Ranger powers with the Beast keyword. (If I'm wrong, color me happy.)


----------



## Bagpuss

Lizard said:


> build (and, no, builds are NOT optional guidelines -- they're hardwired into the system. (Artful Dodger/Brawny Rogue, *Pact Warlock, Implement Choice, etc)




Those aren't builds they are optional Class Features, there is a build for most Class Features, but you are not forced to take a build, just a particular class feature.


----------



## Doctor Proctor

Lizard said:


> You only get choices when WOTC decides to release a new build, and then you start over from level 1 -- for example, I doubt a 2-weapon ranger can EVER learn any of the Ranger powers with the Beast keyword. (If I'm wrong, color me happy.)




First off, the first official "expansion", in the form of Martial Power, isn't even out yet...so let's not jump to conclusions.  Secondly, you're also assuming that a DM won't allow for some re-specing.  Thirdly, you're assuming that all of the new powers will _only_ be for one build.  It's been specifically said here that while there's only one new build, there are powers for that build and the existing ones as well.


----------



## Cadfan

> You can't build a character who is a little bit of this and a little bit of that anymore;



Civil conversation begins with not intentionally saying things you know not to be true.

Its easy to dip between builds, as you well know.  The only exceptions are when a power from another build requires a piece of equipment you haven't got (a ranger without an animal companion might not easily be able to use an animal companion related power, for obvious reasons), or when a power from another build requires an attack roll statistic you haven't pumped (wis/cha clerics who didn't pump str might not want str cleric powers, again for obvious reasons).

I mean, you even quoted, in your post, build options that work well together.  My brutal scoundrel rogue uses one artful dodger power at the moment simply because he likes the added mobility- brutal scoundrel helps with damage and bashing people, but artful dodger adds mobility, and while my rogue focuses on damage a little more than mobility, that doesn't mean he doesn't care about mobility at all.

I mean, for the love of... implement choice defines "the path your character will take for life"??  Are you crazed?  Implement choice mildly affects your career, at best.  It makes you slightly more proficient at certain types of powers, and generally in a very indirect way- a wand wizard might be more willing to take powers that attack one foe, then do extra effects to adjacent foes on a hit.  A staff wizard might be more willing to use close blasts and bursts, since he's better defended.  And an orb wizard will be more interested in powers with saving throws.  But that's hardly setting you on a path for life!  Its a mild preference, at best!  And you can get a second implement at level 11!

The fact that you write these sorts of things make me think that you're not really taking this conversation seriously.  To the extent that a good point might be salvaged from the general idea of prefering less siloing to more, its been completely lost in the midst of all the absolutely lunatic specifics you've given.


----------



## Doctor Proctor

Uhh...I think you don't understand what he meant.  He's saying you can't have a Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian/Wizard/Cleric/Sorcerer anymore, like in 3.x  Regardless of whether or not you can mix *a single feat* from a build, there are often some build specific things going on as well.  For example, your choice of Two-blade Ranger vs Archer Ranger affects what Paragon Paths you can take.

Saying everything is massively silo'd goes a bit too far, but there are definite barriers in place to getting into the massive class mixing that 3.x had.


----------



## Fifth Element

dammitbiscuit said:


> So, you've stated that there is no material in the book FOR a paladin. However, paladins, swordmages and battle clerics are very martial classes.



No, in 4E terms they are not "Martial". Martial is a defined term, a specific power source. It does not mean "related to physical combat".


----------



## Mad Mac

> No, in 4E terms they are not "Martial". Martial is a defined term, a specific power source. It does not mean "related to physical combat".




  This is true, but any feats that boost melee combat without being class specific are potentially useful for Paladins and the like.


----------



## Cadfan

Doctor Proctor said:


> Uhh...I think you don't understand what he meant.



Go back and read his actual words. Not your vision of what his words should have been had he been making a non-insane argument.

The claim that things like implement choice or the selection of "brutal scoundrel" versus "artful dodger" "pretty much define the path your character will take for life" isn't something I made up and attributed to him. Ditto the rest. He's not arguing that you can't make a paladin/ranger/fighter/wizard, he's arguing, quite clearly and with simple, easy to understand words, that you can't even mix a little bit of artful dodger style rogue with brutal scoundrel style rogue. The fact that you explicitly can, _and that he must know this because he is not an idiot_, enrages me when he chooses to say so anyways.


----------



## doppelganger

gamersgambit said:


> Yeah, you can buy from an online company, but you can definately *get* the item on the day it comes street-legal from a store and you are buying, most often, from people who actually care about supporting the hobby.




How can I tell if the people there actually care about supporting the hobby and not caring about being supported by the hobby?


----------



## Lizard

Bagpuss said:


> Those aren't builds they are optional Class Features, there is a build for most Class Features, but you are not forced to take a build, just a particular class feature.




The line from class feature->build is pretty straight. When powers play off of class features and are much more useful with them than without them, not taking them requires a willful disregard of your characters ability to function.

It would be like choosing 2-weapon ranger, then only taking ranged Encounter and Daily powers. I suppose that the rules don't STOP you, but why would you? You can't build an (effective) mixed range/melee ranger; pick one. (with Martial Power, judging from what's been revealed, the choice becomes "Pick one of three", which is notably superior; I have no doubt it will, someday, be "Pick one of five" or "one of six". Point is, you make your pick, and then you're 90% done with choices for your character. Race, Class, Build, GO! This may be considered by many to be a feature, not a bug, and I do understand their arguments; what I don't understand is why they insist on trying to DENY it, instead of trying to SELL people on it as a Good Thing.)


----------



## Lizard

Doctor Proctor said:


> First off, the first official "expansion", in the form of Martial Power, isn't even out yet...so let's not jump to conclusions.  Secondly, you're also assuming that a DM won't allow for some re-specing.  Thirdly, you're assuming that all of the new powers will _only_ be for one build.  It's been specifically said here that while there's only one new build, there are powers for that build and the existing ones as well.




Sorry, I may have been unclear. Based on what I've heard -- and I freely admit this is incomplete -- you can't have a ranger who divides his AW/E/D powers between, say, ranged combat and managing his beast. You want a pet, you take the "I have a pet!" class feature, and then you pick your powers to support it. While I assume you can choose the "wrong" powers, it will be self-evident that they're wrong, and choosing them will mostly be an exercise in masochism (or sadism, if you like seeing the whole party die because you went out of your way to be sub-par.)

I'd love to be wrong, because it would mean 4e is moving away from a fixed price menu and towards an a la carte system, which can only be counted a good thing. In the long run, it's not relevant -- there WILL eventually be enough builds to cover any halfway plausible archetype. It's just that the design as it stands requires you to either wait for the "official" release or roll your own. (Mostly, it's the "class features" that are the problem; if builds were purely a matter of which POWERS you picked, the system would be far more flexible and interesting. As it is, though, for many classes, you pick your feature and IT picks your powers.)


----------



## Lizard

Doctor Proctor said:


> Uhh...I think you don't understand what he meant.  He's saying you can't have a Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian/Wizard/Cleric/Sorcerer anymore, like in 3.x  Regardless of whether or not you can mix *a single feat* from a build, there are often some build specific things going on as well.  For example, your choice of Two-blade Ranger vs Archer Ranger affects what Paragon Paths you can take.
> 
> Saying everything is massively silo'd goes a bit too far, but there are definite barriers in place to getting into the massive class mixing that 3.x had.




It's so nice when people READ what I write, instead of just responding to what they imagined I wrote...

Some classes have this more than others. Ranger is probably the most severe (and the one I know best since I'll be playing one in a few weeks and have thus been studying my options, or lack thereof...I mean, I had to multiclass to Warlord to get a PP that fitted my character concept, though not much else in Warlord does...).

I miss the ability to build a character from a wide assortment of pieces, beginning with a concept and ending with something which mechanically fits that concept. Instead, I need to pick a build, and then create a character AROUND the build. To a lot of people, this is just fine, a simpler and cleaner method that reduces the risk of Pun-Pun. To me, it's limiting, and I think that the game designers had a fear of the Character Optimization boards which limited their design choices unnecessarily. 99% of the nonsense from those boards would never see actual play under a halfway competent DM; they're pure number crunching insanity.

(I mean, I do see some of the issues with 3e which led to 4e; if I have one more combat where the first thing everyone does is either summon, buff, or summon AND buff, I will scream...)


----------



## Lizard

Cadfan said:


> Go back and read his actual words. Not your vision of what his words should have been had he been making a non-insane argument.
> 
> The claim that things like implement choice or the selection of "brutal scoundrel" versus "artful dodger" "pretty much define the path your character will take for life" isn't something I made up and attributed to him. Ditto the rest. He's not arguing that you can't make a paladin/ranger/fighter/wizard, he's arguing, quite clearly and with simple, easy to understand words, that you can't even mix a little bit of artful dodger style rogue with brutal scoundrel style rogue. The fact that you explicitly can, _and that he must know this because he is not an idiot_, enrages me when he chooses to say so anyways.




You CAN do it, it's just usually unwise. You'll get a lot more bang for your buck not mixing. You can walk off the road... a little bit... if you want to, but the road is very clearly marked and there's high fences to all sides. 

To get back to this sub-thread... the fact that a feat requires the Martial power source (as we've been told some do) means it CAN'T be taken by the most militant of Paladins or melee Clerics, even though it might perfectly fit their character concept. (I do not think multiclassing changes your Power Source, though I may be wrong in that interpretation.) Many Fighter powers are perfectly useful for a Paladin, and The Math(tm) means it probably wouldn't be unbalancing to allow him to pick them. Personally, I think the ideal system would be to have Exploits, Spells, and Prayers, and just define which classes can pick from which -- i.e, Paladins could pick Exploits and Prayers, wizards only Spells, swordmages Spells and Exploits. Looking at the game, it seems like they were halfway down the road to Classless D&D, and then backpedaled.


----------



## Rechan

I saw Martial Power and Draconomicon in a Books-A-Million today.

I only got a glance at the feats section. Lotsa feats. The multi-class feats only seem to give you class features. Some of them require you to take the paragon multi-class option (the Fighter one gives you Fighter Superiority if you take this feat after the paragon multi-class).


----------



## Lizard

Rechan said:


> I saw Martial Power and Draconomicon in a Books-A-Million today.
> 
> I only got a glance at the feats section. Lotsa feats. The multi-class feats only seem to give you class features. Some of them require you to take the paragon multi-class option (the Fighter one gives you Fighter Superiority if you take this feat after the paragon multi-class).




See, that's actually pretty cool. The only problem is, at least as I understand the rules currently, you often want to gain a class feature as a prereq for a PP... which you can't if you multiclass instead of taking a PP... but even so, thinking of this and what I do know about various classes, I see the Paragon Tier getting a LOT more interesting in terms of the kinds of concepts you can play with....

It does open up a lot more possibilities, and the (initial) lack of possibilities was my biggest issue w/4e. I think they've done a very good job of expanding the game post-core, and I'm glad my DM put off his 4e game until December, so I can use MP to my advantage. (And run SOTC during the 'off weeks'...loves me some FATE system...)


----------



## Rechan

> (And run SOTC during the 'off weeks'...loves me some FATE system...)




Man after my heart.


----------



## M.L. Martin

Lizard said:


> I miss the ability to build a character from a wide assortment of pieces, beginning with a concept and ending with something which mechanically fits that concept.




  I would note that 3E is, in the grand history of D&D, the 'outlier' in this regard--every other version, if you're sticking close to 'core', has required fitting a concept into a fairly narrow archetype. (Later 2E provided ways to work around this, true, and pre-3E, the mechanics were often loose enough to fudge it or bolt on some other way to handle it outside of the combat and magic system.)
  IMO, 3E was trying to fit HERO-esque character design into a D&D paradigm. 4E, meanwhile, is trying to fit HERO-esque effects-based powers and results into a D&D paradigm, which may explain some of the difficulty people are having with wrapping their heads around it. 



> (I mean, I do see some of the issues with 3e which led to 4e; if I have one more combat where the first thing everyone does is either summon, buff, or summon AND buff, I will scream...)




   Question for you as an old HERO-head, Lizard: Did you ever see this problem in Fantasy HERO games? If not, it may be that the problem is that something about 3E made summons and buffs too cost-effective, as opposed to the concepts being broken at the root.


----------



## Hawke

I know there's 40 of them... but I'm curious about the Paragon Path chapter organization. Is it alphabetical? Is it by class that can use it (with maybe racial paragons at the end)? 

I have a Ranger player that is dying to know (Battlefield Archer and Highland Scout or whatever the FR one is just don't do it for him) about the ranger ones... I'm hoping to use that to my advantage and convince him to buy a copy for me


----------



## Lizard

Matthew L. Martin said:


> I
> IMO, 3E was trying to fit HERO-esque character design into a D&D paradigm. 4E, meanwhile, is trying to fit HERO-esque effects-based powers and results into a D&D paradigm, which may explain some of the difficulty people are having with wrapping their heads around it.




A very good summary.  Once I clued in that 4e powers basically say "The following changes happen to statistics in the game; YOU figure out why/how", it made a lot more sense. There's no essential connection between the power and the game world; indeed, you can look at each power as, in essence, a form of player plot control. The player can declare "This happens!"; the DM and the player figure out how to fit it into the story. 



> Question for you as an old HERO-head, Lizard: Did you ever see this problem in Fantasy HERO games? If not, it may be that the problem is that something about 3E made summons and buffs too cost-effective, as opposed to the concepts being broken at the root.




Actually, summoning in HERO can be very nasty, with x2 monsters for +5 points; however, the nightmare of tracking and creating all those summoned creatures usually kept players from trying it too much.  And Aid was broken in Hero for quite a long time, again requiring a lot of GM smackdown to keep in place. So that might not be the best example of how to do it right.  What 4e does is sort of like what HERO did back in the days before there WAS a summon power; you have an effect like "Energy blast 6d6" and you describe it as "A summoned dragon appears and breathes on the target".

(I haven't played H5 yet, so I don't know if the Summon and Aid powers are better balanced...)


----------



## MrMyth

Lizard said:


> The line from class feature->build is pretty straight. When powers play off of class features and are much more useful with them than without them, not taking them requires a willful disregard of your characters ability to function.
> 
> It would be like choosing 2-weapon ranger, then only taking ranged Encounter and Daily powers. I suppose that the rules don't STOP you, but why would you?




That's an absurd comparison, and you know it. Yes, a melee ranger is going to use the melee ranger powers. The same dichotomy exists for a number of other builds - Str vs Wis Clerics, Str vs Cha Paladins, Con vs Cha Warlocks. On the other hand, you have a number of builds that blend those two - I've seen paladins who use both Str and Cha, and so forth. You could probably even do the same with a Ranger - characters can focus on two ability scores, after all. I just doubt most people have any concept that encourages them to do so. 

But guess what? Those are all a _completely different situation_ than wizards choosing between implements or a rogue choosing between Artful Dodger and Brutal Scoundrel.

I played a Bugbear Rogue up to level 7. The character was dedicated to damage dealing, with a high strength and a heavy focus on Brutal Scoundrel. And yet - my most used power was Bait and Switch, designed for use for Artful Dodgers, since it was still extremely effective for the character and great for moving around combat. Most of my utility powers were movement based ones (Tumble, etc), even though mobility is supposed to be the 'domain' of the Artful Dodger. 

I have a Level 3 Star Warlock in LFR, with a maxed out Constitution. His powers are split 50/50 between Star Pact and Infernal Pact. Yes, he isn't going to take any Fey Pact powers with his 10 Charisma - but there are still a variety of choices for him to make when he chooses his powers. 

Guess what? Both characters, extremely effective. Often hands-down the most effective of the table, despite apparently playing builds you feel removes their "ability to function."

Heck, your comparison isn't even actually accurate for Rangers. I'm looking at their Power list, and many of their powers can be chosen for Melee _or _Ranged. I don't think there is a single level where they are forced into a single specific power based on build - there is almost always a choice between two powers, and sometimes more. And I imagine Martial Power will vastly expand that more. 

I ran into this same argument once before regarding Fighters and the idea that their weapon choice defines what powers they take 100%. Even at the levels where different weapons gain bonuses for different powers, I still find myself considering a variety of options depending on what my characters wants out of their powers - whether they want to hit multiple enemies, or keep enemies from escaping them, or debuff their enemies, or just do the most possible damage. 

Now, if your point is that a character's goals and concepts will define them utterly... well, sure. If a character wants to play a rogue designed around always having combat advantage, and only takes the powers that specifically help with that, then yes, they have a very direct path. But builds really aren't that restrictive - claiming that the choices you make at level one define _90% _of the character, for the rest of their career, is completely absurd. 

I mean... ok, I can see your concern. I can see why you might think the builds are so restrictive. But in practice, they very much aren't. Yes, a strength-based ranger will only have 2-3 choices of power at each level, but they aren't locked into a single choice. From the discussion given by the writers of Martial Power, while many of the powers it will add will be for the Beast path, several more will be for any rangers, so I suspect this will bring the choices up to 4-5 at each level - and more for other Martial classes. I can certainly understand being concerned about this danger, but I think 4E avoids it - I have been specifically impressed by how hard it is to choose the best power to take at any given level, even when playing multi-stat classes where my choices are already limited. 

I'd be happy to provide examples, since while I get your concern, I _absolutely _don't see any support for it in the actual rules.


----------



## Doctor Proctor

Lizard said:


> To get back to this sub-thread... the fact that a feat requires the Martial power source (as we've been told some do) means it CAN'T be taken by the most militant of Paladins or melee Clerics, even though it might perfectly fit their character concept. (I do not think multiclassing changes your Power Source, though I may be wrong in that interpretation.) Many Fighter powers are perfectly useful for a Paladin, and The Math(tm) means it probably wouldn't be unbalancing to allow him to pick them.




Actually, that's incorrect.  The feats in Martial will sometimes say "Any Martial Class", they don't mention power source.  So, if you're a Paladin and you MC to Fighter to get more melee powers and such, you would count as a "Martial Class" for purposes of feat selection.  The PHB itself says this on page 208.



> A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass
> feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of
> meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying
> for paragon paths. For example, a character who
> takes Initiate of the Faith counts as a cleric for the purpose
> of selecting feats that have cleric as a prerequisite.
> These feats can qualify you for other feats; for example,
> a warlock who takes Sneak of Shadows can use the
> rogue’s Sneak Attack class feature, which means that
> he meets the prerequisite for the Backstabber feat.




All that Martial Power is doing is adding feats that are broader than they were before.  So instead of saying "Fighter only", they say "Any Martial Class".  If anything, it's actually adding _more_ freedom to feat selection.



> Personally, I think the ideal system would be to have Exploits, Spells, and Prayers, and just define which classes can pick from which -- i.e, Paladins could pick Exploits and Prayers, wizards only Spells, swordmages Spells and Exploits. Looking at the game, it seems like they were halfway down the road to Classless D&D, and then backpedaled.




I think that still wouldn't get you what you want.  What's a Paladin get then?  Exploits, or Prayers?  He's a hybrid class, but Divine power source.  If you make him Martial and give him Exploits, he'll lost the healing and Divine Challenge type stuff.  If you make him Divine and give him Prayers, then he's still not going to be able to pick and choose from the Fighter powers.

Additionally, even classes from the same power source do not act the same.  Just look at, again, the Martial and Divine sources.  Each has a Leader, and each has a Defender.  So, even though Clerics and Warlords have the same role, they have very different flavors, powers and specialties.  Same with the Fighter and the Paladin.  Sure, a Paladin can't swing an axe around in a Burst 1, doing damage to all surrounding enemies and knocking them prone.  By the same token though, a Fighter can't teleport someone and heal them as part of the process...or take a hit on another PC's behalf.


----------



## Campbell

While I think most 4e classes are more flexible than Lizard gives them credit for I will say that Rangers, Paladins, and Clerics pretty much require you to pick one build over the other largely due to their powers using differing ability scores as their attacking ability score.


----------



## GMforPowergamers

Ranger seams the least typed to me...I have seen rangers put dex prime str 2nd wis 3rd, choose two weapon (for toughness) then every power choose one that has both melee and ranged options...it works out to be a great swing hitter...cleric not so much though.


----------



## Rechan

I swear, Martial Power just makes me salivate for Arcane and Divine power. 

2009 can't come fast enough.


----------



## Lizard

Rechan said:


> I swear, Martial Power just makes me salivate for Arcane and Divine power.
> 
> 2009 can't come fast enough.




Overall, the quality of the post-release material for 4e (Dragon, supplements) has been exceptionally good, but a lot of it is stuff which really belongs in core. (2 weapon fighter, beast ranger, diplo rogue, alchemy and a decent selection of magic items). Which makes me wonder why the core books were so stripped down; if they'd kept the same rules but used 3e's type font and page count, there would have been at least twice as much content and the game would not have come across as so limiting.


----------



## Wisdom Penalty

Lizard said:


> Overall, the quality of the post-release material for 4e (Dragon, supplements) has been exceptionally good, but a lot of it is stuff which really belongs in core. (2 weapon fighter, beast ranger, diplo rogue, alchemy and a decent selection of magic items). Which makes me wonder why the core books were so stripped down; if they'd kept the same rules but used 3e's type font and page count, there would have been at least twice as much content and the game would not have come across as so limiting.




I agree. The lack of options out of the box, as least with my group, has been one of our hardest hurdles to overcome. 

The WP


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

GMforPowergamers said:


> Ranger seams the least typed to me...I have seen rangers put dex prime str 2nd wis 3rd, choose two weapon (for toughness) then every power choose one that has both melee and ranged options...it works out to be a great swing hitter...cleric not so much though.




The trick with Rangers seems to be: Forget Bows. Use Heavy Thrown weapons and be a versatile killing machine.


----------



## thecasualoblivion

To get this somewhat back on topic, I have this book, and I'd be happy to answer questions on it.


----------



## firesnakearies

I disagree.  I think that the Player's Handbook as released had _plenty_ of options.  It certainly wasn't missing anything absolutely _critical_ to play, and the amount of content available was at least as beefy as what the vast majority of other roleplaying games' initial core rulebooks offer.

Coming from the perspective of a 3.5 player, moving directly from the colossal, endless ocean of options that currently exists for that system, I can see how the brand-new 4E PHB could seem restrictive and incomplete.

But looking at the book from the perspective of a player just discovering D&D, it seems pretty rich to me.

Also, the idea that just because some race/class/character-building choice/subsystem existed in the core rules of a previous edition, that detail _must_ be included in the core of a new edition (or else it's incomplete!) is, to my eyes, false.

It's a new game, not merely a patch over the old one.  It should pay homage to what came before, and carry forward some of the _spirit_ of its predecessors, but beyond that it shouldn't be chained too tightly to the expectations of the (apparently) outdated game that it is _replacing_.


----------



## Lizard

firesnakearies said:


> I disagree.  I think that the Player's Handbook as released had _plenty_ of options.  It certainly wasn't missing anything absolutely _critical_ to play, and the amount of content available was at least as beefy as what the vast majority of other roleplaying games' initial core rulebooks offer.




But if you look at the history of the game (AD&D, AD&D 2e, D&3e, D&D 4e) you'll see each games core 3-book set offered MORE options than the core set which had gone before it -- until 4e, and the only reason I can see for this is a desire to make the game less "scary" by using a big font, lots of white space, and a low page count. It's certainly not from a lack of ideas or skilled designers.


----------



## Fifth Element

Lizard said:


> But if you look at the history of the game (AD&D, AD&D 2e, D&3e, D&D 4e) you'll see each games core 3-book set offered MORE options than the core set which had gone before it -- until 4e



This is not true of 1E -> 2E.

Core races are one less in 2E (half-orcs gone).

Core classes are only more in 2E if you count each specialist wizard as a separate class, which you shouldn't. Really the specialist replaces the illusionist, and you lose the assassin and monk, and kinda gain the bard (as a basic class anyway).

So if you played a half-orc assassin in 1E, you were out of luck in 2E.


----------



## firesnakearies

It seems to me that the only character types who could claim to have LESS options now are Wizards and Clerics.  Everyone else has way MORE options.

As for the races and classes which they didn't include in the PHB this time, those ARE the ones which a majority of players considered to be "secondary" or "extra" ones anyway.  The less-represented, less _representative_ of the core of Dungeons and Dragons options.

Monks, Barbarians, and Half-Orcs are some of my very _favorites_, but even so, I recognize that they're "sideline" character choices.  I don't mind waiting for them to be properly treated in a supplemental book.

Elf, Dwarf, Human, and Halfling.  Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, and Wizard.  THOSE are the core.  If D&D still has those, it's still D&D, and it's "complete".  Everything else is expansion material.


----------



## Doctor Proctor

Fifth Element said:


> This is not true of 1E -> 2E.
> 
> Core races are one less in 2E (half-orcs gone).
> 
> Core classes are only more in 2E if you count each specialist wizard as a separate class, which you shouldn't. Really the specialist replaces the illusionist, and you lose the assassin and monk, and kinda gain the bard (as a basic class anyway).
> 
> So if you played a half-orc assassin in 1E, you were out of luck in 2E.




Also, the 2e book didn't have a whole lot in it for certain classes.  Like Fighters?  You had a chart telling you how many attacks you got per round and rules on gaining stands of followers.  That was about it though.  There wasn't the giant list of powers that we have now, and a lot of the special combat techniques that I used to further my character came from the Warrior's Handbook that came out later.  With the 2e PHB, all you had was just a pretty basic and generic Fighter that just hit more times per round as he leveled up.

So yeah, maybe there aren't as many builds and whatnot, but for some classes they've totally changed how they worked.  They've given everyone new things to do and build new rules for the system from the ground up.  Yes, they could've reduced the font and such and crammed some more in, but from what we've heard about just *Martial *Power, I doubt they could've fit all the extra info into the PHB, let alone for all the Arcane and Divine classes.  Add to that the fact that the PHB II/III should be adding more races, more classes, more powers, more feats, etc..  They couldn't have crammed it all into one book, and if they did, they would've had to pare it down to a very basic idea for each concept, just like the old 2e PHB.


----------



## Lizard

Fifth Element said:


> This is not true of 1E -> 2E.
> 
> Core races are one less in 2E (half-orcs gone).
> 
> Core classes are only more in 2E if you count each specialist wizard as a separate class, which you shouldn't. Really the specialist replaces the illusionist, and you lose the assassin and monk, and kinda gain the bard (as a basic class anyway).
> 
> So if you played a half-orc assassin in 1E, you were out of luck in 2E.




True, but you got non-combat proficiencies, clerics for different gods who were actually DIFFERENT, more flexibility for assigning rogue skills (IIRC), fewer general limits, a handful of more tricks for single-class fighters, overall increase in level cap for non humans, and so on. Even if some options were removed, I feel the total spread of options was wider. I admit it's a close call. Also, even though 2e also did the "Big fonts! More white space!" shtick, there were more pages in the books which helped compensate for it.


----------



## Fifth Element

Lizard said:


> clerics for different gods who were actually DIFFERENT



In core, these were only suggestions. There are no rules for what granted powers a deity might give, just a few suggestions IIRC. It's left to DM fiat. Also, in some respects priest spheres are more restrictive (reducing options), since you can only cast spells from your available spheres, whereas 1E clerics could cast any spell.



Lizard said:


> I admit it's a close call. Also, even though 2e also did the "Big fonts! More white space!" shtick, there were more pages in the books which helped compensate for it.



It is a close call. But as you note it adds options to some classes while removing other classes entirely. Sounds similar to 4E.


----------



## Drakhar

thecasualoblivion said:


> To get this somewhat back on topic, I have this book, and I'd be happy to answer questions on it.




What are the Main, secondary and tertiary stats for a BM Ranger? And do they have Ranged powers or are they just meleeing with their companion?


----------



## graylion

*History of D&D*



firesnakearies said:


> I disagree.  I think that the Player's Handbook as released had _plenty_ of options.  It certainly wasn't missing anything absolutely _critical_ to play, and the amount of content available was at least as beefy as what the vast majority of other roleplaying games' initial core rulebooks offer.
> 
> Coming from the perspective of a 3.5 player, moving directly from the colossal, endless ocean of options that currently exists for that system, I can see how the brand-new 4E PHB could seem restrictive and incomplete.
> 
> But looking at the book from the perspective of a player just discovering D&D, it seems pretty rich to me.
> 
> Also, the idea that just because some race/class/character-building choice/subsystem existed in the core rules of a previous edition, that detail _must_ be included in the core of a new edition (or else it's incomplete!) is, to my eyes, false.
> 
> It's a new game, not merely a patch over the old one.  It should pay homage to what came before, and carry forward some of the _spirit_ of its predecessors, but beyond that it shouldn't be chained too tightly to the expectations of the (apparently) outdated game that it is _replacing_.





I agree with firesnakearies having started D&D when these had been my choices (D&D Basic):

Cleric (Human)
Fighter (Human)
Magic-User (Human)
Rogue (Human)
Elf (Fighter/Magic User)
Dwarf (Fighter/Cleric)
Halfling (Fighter/Rogue)

I am very excited to see Martial Power, Arcane Power and Divine Power as new and exciting choices. I have also ordered the Mongoose Quintessential Wizard hoping they have done a good job adding arcane options.

So if you look at the roots and look at the landscape of its history, I see a more complete and fun game today them when I started. Sure if your have one less class or race you may want to take this route and say I have less. But if you compare what each can do like the fighter, in my opinion you have more. I can count the number of time in D&D I have had the urge to play a straight fighter. Once, when I started the game and maybe another 2 or 3 times in the last 20 years. 

When I set down with 4e I was hesitant and had read all the bad press. I purchased all three books and read them making the comment, "wow it feels different, maybe they are correct". However this has been my hobby for 20 years so I had to touch it and see it play. So much like I did when I started D&D, I made a fighter (this new beginning as a dwarf - cool!) and you know what I found, I found that I had a fun character with options. So each round when the mage was casting, or the priest was healing I could do SOMETHING other than swing/miss or swing/hit. And when I ran out of daily and encounter powers I still had my at-wills which would not leave me but be a part of my defining character style. I thought to myself I can see where this game can go. So I turned my back on the heavy layers of 3.5 without any hesitation. I was ready to jump to pathfinder as it is a better 3.5 option, but I embraced 4th edition.

Things I like about 4th edition. Fast and easy character creation. I can now take a new player that has not played D&D and move him through creation very quickly. 4th edition continues the trend that 3rd had correct. d20 laws (high is good, low is bad for all things). AC is easy to execute.

I purchased the D&D insider subscription after being on its fence for a while and let me tell you about how I use the compendium. TSR/Wizards has such a bad track record with software and online contant, but again this is my hobby for 20+ years. I like the older modules so I run 4th edition the hard way. I use Merps, Role-aids, rolemaster, D&D Basic, 2nd edition, anything that fits my campaign and world I mold into 4th. I go through a module while logged into the compendium and search for each creature on the compendium. I print out that creature and move on to the next. Sometimes I do not find an exact match but I make do and it is great to have one sheet for my creatures and not open the monster manual. I write one set of hp on this sheet for each monster appearing and scratch up this sheet during combat. I think of when I used to DM in 1st edition going to the library and making photo copies of monsters for game prep, this rocks.

I print a character overview and race overview for each player off of the compendium so they can keep with the character as they become more familiar with their character.

Oh and magic items. Do you remember handing out magic items as the question rolled in, what does this one do and explain the magic item while players scratched notes in corners of sheets or 4x6 cards. I print one sheet off of the compendium for each magic item, ritual, potion, ect and hand it to the players. The last time I handed out treasure I piled the items in the middle of the table and you should have seen the players dive it. They began reading and trading them around the table and having a great time.

We use the Ema's Home Page web site for character creation and keep all characters on the site. This allows us to print out sheets and powers as well. If a player cannot make it this week we always have access to his sheet online. This also gives me a chance to log on and stay familiar with a character as they gain levels and new powers since 4th edition is still fresh I like to be familiar with what they can do.

Now I will not say there are things that do not work for my in 4th edition. I am used to keeping individual XP per player in previous editions and I still could but 4th edition not built for this so I have changed my approach. I am still having a problem wrapping my head around milestones and multiple action points. My suggestion is if something if missing google it and add it. If there is something you do not like don’t use it. At the end of the day if you can not wrap yourself around the 4th edition as a whole them by all means stick the 3rd edition or whatever edition/system makes you and your group happy.

I could go on for a while but to sum up I feel that each character has a more balanced offering of choices not just races and classes but total character. I was not a bored dwarven fighter, I was excited to see if I should hold off on the dailies and use my encounters now or which power to use before or after the next power. I feel that for the DM that wants the digital choices and do not want to hand write out the creation of characters and monsters we have a whole new world that is growing every day.

Regards

Graylion


----------



## thecasualoblivion

Drakhar said:


> What are the Main, secondary and tertiary stats for a BM Ranger? And do they have Ranged powers or are they just meleeing with their companion?




The listed stats for a BM Ranger are Strength, Wisdom, and Dexterity in that order. I would disagree, since Con is very important as the companion only has two healing surges and beyond that is most often healed by spending your healing surges. My stat array for a BM Ranger would be Str/Wis/Con. A decent Con and the Durable feat seem to be in order. There aren't any Ranged powers, its pretty much all melee, though it isn't any worse at bow attacks than a TWF Ranger would be, though the importance of Con would make a Beastmaster/Archer Ranger seriously MAD(multiple ability dependant).


----------



## Lizard

Fifth Element said:


> In core, these were only suggestions. There are no rules for what granted powers a deity might give, just a few suggestions IIRC. It's left to DM fiat. Also, in some respects priest spheres are more restrictive (reducing options), since you can only cast spells from your available spheres, whereas 1E clerics could cast any spell.




See, I view this as MORE options -- and it's about the only 2e-ism I wish 3e had kept -- because while 1e gave you "The Cleric", 2e allowed you to build clerics of different gods who had wholly different spell selections. 3e's domains were tolerable but you still have most clerics sharing 90% of the same spells. 4e goes back practically all the way to 1e, as every Cleric is now the servant of the god of pew-pew lasers, who *might* take a feat if they want a fairly weak 'special' power but certainly doesn't have to.


----------



## Klaus

thecasualoblivion said:


> To get this somewhat back on topic, I have this book, and I'd be happy to answer questions on it.



What is the 1st-level Encounter power for the Bravura Warlord?

What is the enhancement feat for the Bravura Warlord?


----------



## Hawke

thecasualoblivion said:


> To get this somewhat back on topic, I have this book, and I'd be happy to answer questions on it.




Yeah a fork might be in order...

Any chance on please listing some of the Ranger Paragon paths? Perhaps name and specific build (melee, range, beast?) 

Did you get the book from a local retailer? I checked Borders yesterday who broke street date on pretty much everything since core but no cigar.


----------



## thecasualoblivion

Klaus said:


> What is the 1st-level Encounter power for the Bravura Warlord?
> 
> What is the enhancement feat for the Bravura Warlord?




At-Will--Brash Assault, which is a standard weapon hit and damage, followed by your enemy being able to hit you with a basic attack with combat advantage, which gives in turn a free basic attack with combat advantage against that monster to an ally.

Feat: gives +1 to an ally's attack roll with Bravura Presence



Hawke said:


> Yeah a fork might be in order...
> 
> Any chance on please listing some of the Ranger Paragon paths? Perhaps name and specific build (melee, range, beast?)
> 
> Did you get the book from a local retailer? I checked Borders yesterday who broke street date on pretty much everything since core but no cigar.




Got it from Waldenbooks

Ranger Paragon Paths(none of these have a style as a prerequisite aside from the beast ones):

Avalanche Hurler--TWF/Thrown
Blade Banshee--TWF Eladrin
Blade Dancer--TWF
Feral Spirit--Beast
Giantslayer--Fighter or Ranger, TWF/Bow hybrid
Hellborn Shadow--Tiefling TWF
Horizon Walker--TWF/Ranged
Pack Runner--Beast(Wolf)
Ruthless Punisher--TWF/Ranged
Sharpshooter--Ranged
Sylvan Archer--Elf, Ranged
Wildcat Stalker--Beast(Cat)


----------



## Klaus

That's a nice At-Will, but what's the Encounter one?


----------



## thecasualoblivion

Klaus said:


> That's a nice At-Will, but what's the Encounter one?




Sorry, misread...

Luring Focus

Str vs Fort, 1[W]+ str, and pull another enemy within 5 one square. Bravura Presence: Pull equal to your Cha in squares instead of 1. 

You can use this attack in place of a basic attack when you charge


----------



## Talaeden_Denthiir

Any Sniper PP's for the Rogue?

Do Rogue's get a Ranged Build?

As for the are classes in 4E more 'straightjacketed' or not debate, I think yes and no:

1)  Multiclassing sucks compared to 3E, but on the other handed it's not broken like in 3E either.

2)  As far as the individual classes, my bigest grip is that is that the 'attack stat', 'modifier stat' paradigm is vastly different for the classes and because of this IMHO less balanced because of it.  For example:

  Rogues: Atk Stat = Dex, Mod Stat = Cha or Str
  Paladins: Atk Stat = Cha or Str, Mod Stat = Wis
  Rangers: Atk Stat = Str or Dex, Mod Stat = Wis
  Warlock: Atk = Cha or Con, Mod = Int
  Wizard: Atk = Int
  Fighter: Atk = Str, Mod = Con, Wis, Dex
  Cleric: Atk = Wis or Str, Mod = Cha
  Warlord: Atk = Str, Mod = Int or Cha

So, what gives?  Paladins, Rangers, Warlock, and Cleric pretty much have their attack stat 'determine' their builds/path, while with Rogue, Fighter, and Warlord, the Mod Stat 'determines' it.  And I guess I would stick Wizard with the later, but while although implements are governed by Wis, Con, Dex (i.e. = Mod Stat), I think there are only 1 or 2 powers with a Mod based on a Stat other than Int.


----------



## Hawke

thecasualoblivion said:


> Ranger Paragon Paths(none of these have a style as a prerequisite aside from the beast ones):




Nice! Thanks... looks like some potentially good options for some of my players. I'm eager to check out that giantkiller one.


----------



## thecasualoblivion

Talaeden_Denthiir said:


> Any Sniper PP's for the Rogue?
> 
> Do Rogue's get a Ranged Build?




There is a Rogue Paragon Path called the Cloaked Sniper, a crossbow specialist. There is also the Flying-Blade Adept, a Shuriken/Thrown Dagger specialist. 



Talaeden_Denthiir said:


> As for the are classes in 4E more 'straightjacketed' or not debate, I think yes and no:
> 
> 1)  Multiclassing sucks compared to 3E, but on the other handed it's not broken like in 3E either.




The way I see it is this: You can't do as much with 4E multiclassing as you could with 3E multiclassing, but it works.


----------



## Talaeden_Denthiir

Thanks   The Flying Blade adept sounds cool!

Yeah, Multiclassing works, I guess 3E just spoiled me


----------



## Cadfan

I think that multiclassing is going to get a lot better as more paragon paths are released.  A lot of paragon paths boil down to "here's some abilities that focus you on a specific style of play or build option for this class."  Which means that if you multiclass into that path, then take that paragon path, you've basically just received a bunch of level appropriate abilities from the class you were entering.

For example, look at the Kensei, or the Swordmaster.  If you were intending to multiclass into Fighter, you could take one of these rather than spending extra feats to trade powers, and you'd get a bunch of neat Fighter-like abilities.

Even further than that, there is a HUGE amount of design space available for paragon paths that are, in and of themselves, what we would call multiclasses.  The Wizard of the Spiral Tower is a great example.  Suppose you're a wizard.  You want to multiclass into Fighter because you want to attack with a sword as well as with spells.  Well, you could do that, but you could also take a paragon path that's already been designed to give you exactly that outcome, customized to work well mechanically with the class you're already in.

That's the real power of the paragon path design system, in my opinion.  Where 3e expected you to multiclass then used prestige classes to patch the mechanical flaws in your multiclass, 4e is set up in reverse- you can get the paragon path up front.

I suppose time will tell how well this design space is exploited, but it exists, they've dipped their fingers in, and I am hopeful.


----------



## Shroomy

Cadfan said:


> I think that multiclassing is going to get a lot better as more paragon paths are released.  A lot of paragon paths boil down to "here's some abilities that focus you on a specific style of play or build option for this class."  Which means that if you multiclass into that path, then take that paragon path, you've basically just received a bunch of level appropriate abilities from the class you were entering.
> 
> For example, look at the Kensei, or the Swordmaster.  If you were intending to multiclass into Fighter, you could take one of these rather than spending extra feats to trade powers, and you'd get a bunch of neat Fighter-like abilities.
> 
> Even further than that, there is a HUGE amount of design space available for paragon paths that are, in and of themselves, what we would call multiclasses.  The Wizard of the Spiral Tower is a great example.  Suppose you're a wizard.  You want to multiclass into Fighter because you want to attack with a sword as well as with spells.  Well, you could do that, but you could also take a paragon path that's already been designed to give you exactly that outcome, customized to work well mechanically with the class you're already in.
> 
> That's the real power of the paragon path design system, in my opinion.  Where 3e expected you to multiclass then used prestige classes to patch the mechanical flaws in your multiclass, 4e is set up in reverse- you can get the paragon path up front.
> 
> I suppose time will tell how well this design space is exploited, but it exists, they've dipped their fingers in, and I am hopeful.




Those are good points.  I find that the 4e MC system to be one of the best parts of the game.  On the surface, I think it looks deceptively simple and relatively gimped when compared to the freewheeling 3.x multi-classing, but its actually a multi-part system composed of the (1) initial multi-class feats, (2) power swap feats, (3) access to paragon paths, (4) the option of paragon multi-classing, and (5) access to class specific feats.  There is a lot of potential flexibility in that core system and the fact that it is primarily feat based means you can bolt on extra sub-systems quite easily.  I mean we've seen multi-class only classes, weapon specialization chains, feats that improve paragon multi-classing, and feats that give new powers to multi-class characters not available to the single-classed characters.


----------



## Klaus

thecasualoblivion said:


> Sorry, misread...
> 
> Luring Focus
> 
> Str vs Fort, 1[W]+ str, and pull another enemy within 5 one square. Bravura Presence: Pull equal to your Cha in squares instead of 1.
> 
> You can use this attack in place of a basic attack when you charge



Thanks!

Is there any way in the book for a non-ranger to get a beast companion (via multiclassing or something)?

Any way to get a "dragon" or "drake" as a companion?


----------



## thecasualoblivion

Klaus said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Is there any way in the book for a non-ranger to get a beast companion (via multiclassing or something)?
> 
> Any way to get a "dragon" or "drake" as a companion?




No way for a non-Ranger to get a beast companion as per the rules in Martial Power, though you can use the mount rules for the DMG for something along those lines. 

Lizard is one of the choices, and drakes were listed as one of the choices for a Lizard companion. I guess you _could_ have a dragon companion, but it wouldn't do anything "dragonish".


----------



## Talaeden_Denthiir

by Cadfan:



> I think that multiclassing is going to get a lot better as more paragon paths are released. A lot of paragon paths boil down to "here's some abilities that focus you on a specific style of play or build option for this class." Which means that if you multiclass into that path, then take that paragon path, you've basically just received a bunch of level appropriate abilities from the class you were entering.
> 
> For example, look at the Kensei, or the Swordmaster. If you were intending to multiclass into Fighter, you could take one of these rather than spending extra feats to trade powers, and you'd get a bunch of neat Fighter-like abilities.
> 
> Even further than that, there is a HUGE amount of design space available for paragon paths that are, in and of themselves, what we would call multiclasses. The Wizard of the Spiral Tower is a great example. Suppose you're a wizard. You want to multiclass into Fighter because you want to attack with a sword as well as with spells. Well, you could do that, but you could also take a paragon path that's already been designed to give you exactly that outcome, customized to work well mechanically with the class you're already in.
> 
> That's the real power of the paragon path design system, in my opinion. Where 3e expected you to multiclass then used prestige classes to patch the mechanical flaws in your multiclass, 4e is set up in reverse- you can get the paragon path up front.
> 
> I suppose time will tell how well this design space is exploited, but it exists, they've dipped their fingers in, and I am hopeful.




by Shroomy:



> Those are good points. I find that the 4e MC system to be one of the best parts of the game. On the surface, I think it looks deceptively simple and relatively gimped when compared to the freewheeling 3.x multi-classing, but its actually a multi-part system composed of the (1) initial multi-class feats, (2) power swap feats, (3) access to paragon paths, (4) the option of paragon multi-classing, and (5) access to class specific feats. There is a lot of potential flexibility in that core system and the fact that it is primarily feat based means you can bolt on extra sub-systems quite easily. I mean we've seen multi-class only classes, weapon specialization chains, feats that improve paragon multi-classing, and feats that give new powers to multi-class characters not available to the single-classed characters.




Wow, excellent points, people.  I hadn't thought of it that way.  Definatley gives me hope for the future .

*@ thecasualoblivion:*

So, having a beast build ranger you fight with a big two-handed weapon?


----------



## thecasualoblivion

Talaeden_Denthiir said:


> *@ thecasualoblivion:*
> 
> So, having a beast build ranger you fight with a big two-handed weapon?




As for the Beastmaster Ranger, none of the powers that involve Beasts, from levels 1-30 or from any Paragon Paths involving beasts, involve using two weapons. I mean none. Most of the non-beast Ranger powers do. Its your call.


----------



## GMforPowergamers

Any chance for info on the gensi warlord paragon path...


----------



## thecasualoblivion

GMforPowergamers said:


> Any chance for info on the gensi warlord paragon path...




It involves multiple manifestations, manipulating them and sharing them with your allies(even the encounter power), and using your elemental resistances as a defensive and offensive weapon.


----------



## WalterKovacs

Is there anything connected to elven rogues? (Paragon Path or feat)


----------



## Drakhar

Do any of the fighter powers actually have benefits if you're using a Quarterstaff as a weapon?


----------



## Rechan

Is the Bravura Warlord focusing on Cha, or Int? 

The Resourceful Warlord flips between Int and Cha, yes?


----------



## Rechan

Talaeden_Denthiir said:
			
		

> So, what gives?




Classes are different. Just like how Swordmage powers give bonuses depending on which kind of Aegis (mark) power you chose, rather than what stat you're using.  

I have the feeling the Barbarian is going to be Str primary, Con/Cha secondary, given that Con is doing all the secondary effects. 

Also, if you note, the "Caster" types (Wis Cleric, Warlock, Paladin, Wizard, Swordmage, Artificer, Bard) have the attack-stat as their primary, and the secondary designates their build. It may be something specific to Divine/Arcane casters. The only outliers to this theory are the Starpact Warlock (who bounces between Cha and Con as the attack stat), and the Ranger.


----------



## thecasualoblivion

One thing I noticed is that Tieflings got a lot of love in this book. They are the only race that got a unique Paragon Path exclusive to themselves for each class. No other race got more than two. They also have a truly sick Fighter feat(Infernal Wrath lasts until the enemy is no longer marked by you).




WalterKovacs said:


> Is there anything connected to elven rogues? (Paragon Path or feat)




No Paragon Path, unfortunately. Elves get a unique Ranger Paragon, but thats it. Racial Paragons for Rogues go to Drow, Halflings, and Tieflings. Feats include:

Heroic: Sneaky Accuracy--If you use Elven Accuracy on an attack that would have dealt Sneak Attack damage and miss with the second roll, you do not expend Elven Accuracy

Paragon: Prime Slayer--If none of your allies are closer to the target than you are, you gain +2 damage on ranged attacks.


Sneaky Accuracy is really good.


----------



## thecasualoblivion

Drakhar said:


> Do any of the fighter powers actually have benefits if you're using a Quarterstaff as a weapon?




No.



Rechan said:


> Is the Bravura Warlord focusing on Cha, or Int?
> 
> The Resourceful Warlord flips between Int and Cha, yes?




Bravura Warlord is based on Cha, and the Resourceful Warlord uses both Int and Cha, sometimes at the same time.


----------



## GMforPowergamers

thecasualoblivion said:


> It involves multiple manifestations, manipulating them and sharing them with your allies(even the encounter power), and using your elemental resistances as a defensive and offensive weapon.




you rock...I owe  you one...thank you


----------



## Gurtyel

Hi, can anyone tell what is the name of the Drow/rogue  paragon path? pls give some of ur impressions for this class......i will apprecciate any reply to this. thx


----------



## thecasualoblivion

Gurtyel said:


> Hi, can anyone tell what is the name of the Drow/rogue  paragon path? pls give some of ur impressions for this class......i will apprecciate any reply to this. thx




Drow Rogue Paragon is called Dread Fang. When you spend an action point to attack, you can apply sneak attack, even if you have already done so. Their encounter power is a two weapon attack with a light weapon in one hand a a hand crossbow in the other, and the daily poisons. Its not terribly impressive overall.


----------



## Enaloindir

thecasualoblivion said:


> [...]
> Heroic: Sneaky Accuracy--If you use Elven Accuracy on an attack that would have dealt Sneak Attack damage and miss with the second roll, you do not expend Elven Accuracy
> [...]
> Sneaky Accuracy is really good.



Nominated in the category "Understatement of the Year"...

I don't think elven rogues have to think twice about which feat to take when this is available. 

- Enaloindir


----------



## firesnakearies

Yeah, wow.  That's crazy good.


----------



## Phaezen

Enaloindir said:


> Nominated in the category "Understatement of the Year"...
> 
> I don't think elven rogues have to think twice about which feat to take when this is available.
> 
> - Enaloindir




Can't see elven rogues not having a reaon to take this.  But I can't see the in game effect being all that broken, basically gives Elven Accuracy the reliable descriptor, and you have to miss twice to get the benfit.  

Phaezen


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Enaloindir said:


> Nominated in the category "Understatement of the Year"...
> 
> I don't think elven rogues have to think twice about which feat to take when this is available.
> 
> - Enaloindir



Indeed. And it appears as if this book might come out just the right moment - there is a level with a feat coming up in one of our campaigns (that has an Elven Rogue)


----------



## Larrin

Can you give a little info on the Sharpshooter and/or sylvan stalker Paragon Paths, I'm planning an elf archer and i'm interested if theres anything to look forward to in the paragon sector...


----------



## WalterKovacs

On the subject of the racial stuff, what do human rogues get? (PP/feats)

I'm starting a campaign and haven't decided between human and elf for my rogue. Not sure if the group would even allow for martial power stuff to be used, but keeping it open as an option is nice.


----------



## thecasualoblivion

Larrin said:


> Can you give a little info on the Sharpshooter and/or sylvan stalker Paragon Paths, I'm planning an elf archer and i'm interested if theres anything to look forward to in the paragon sector...




Sharpshooter gets:

Action Point gives a basic ranged attack with bow/crossbow as a free action in addition to whatever else you do with it.

Can make opportunity attacks with bow/crossbow, which don't provoke when doing OAs.

Ignore cover/concealment, but not complete cover/conceal.

Encounter: Stab with arrow, then shoot with no OA.

Utility Encounter: Gain Wis to attack/damage with next ranged attack

Daily: Shoot three times with increasing accuracy and damage



Sylvan Archer gets:

Action point negates all regular or superior cover and concealment in addition to extra action

+2 Perception

Hunter's Quarry gets +Wisdom to damage on ranged attacks

Encounter: a power that is basically Disruptive Strike(ranged)

Utility Encounter: Quarry any enemy in sight, even if you have another Quarry.

Daily: big damage and dazed. bigger damage and stunned if you speak target's name.


----------



## thecasualoblivion

WalterKovacs said:


> On the subject of the racial stuff, what do human rogues get? (PP/feats)
> 
> I'm starting a campaign and haven't decided between human and elf for my rogue. Not sure if the group would even allow for martial power stuff to be used, but keeping it open as an option is nice.




Humans don't get anything special. Elven Rogues get a stupidly good feat that lets them keep Elven Accuracy if they miss the second roll on an attack that would have dealt Sneak Attack damage. 

Go with Elf.


----------



## Drakhar

thecasualoblivion said:


> Sharpshooter gets:
> 
> Action Point gives a basic ranged attack with bow/crossbow as a free action in addition to whatever else you do with it.
> 
> Can make opportunity attacks with bow/crossbow, which don't provoke when doing OAs.
> 
> Ignore cover/concealment, but not complete cover/conceal.
> 
> Encounter: Stab with arrow, then shoot with no OA.
> 
> Utility Encounter: Gain Wis to attack/damage with next ranged attack
> 
> Daily: Shoot three times with increasing accuracy and damage




Ah so Sharpshooter = Legolas.


----------



## Larrin

Thanks, sharpshooter looks like exactly what i want in an archer!


----------



## Fifth Element

thecasualoblivion said:


> Encounter: Stab with arrow, then shoot with no OA.



I see someone was watching LotR.

Seriously, one of the things I think is good about 4E is the ease with which you can transfer a cool move from a movie into the game. If you watch the LotR trilogy, I'm sure you could jot down quite a few things you could translate into exploits.


----------



## Evilhalfling

well the elven rouge in my party will certainly want sneaky accuracy, but he has a lot of feats to compete for his interest and the campaign will end before paragon...


----------



## WalterKovacs

thecasualoblivion said:


> Humans don't get anything special. Elven Rogues get a stupidly good feat that lets them keep Elven Accuracy if they miss the second roll on an attack that would have dealt Sneak Attack damage.
> 
> Go with Elf.




Humans do get something though, right? Just wondering what that would be.


----------



## padpaw

Three questions for Mr. casualoblivion, if he'll be so kind as to answer them

1) Does the Ranger get any new stealth based attacks, utilities, or feats in Martial Power (a-la Forrest Ghost)?  
2) What are the paragon paths available to rogues?
3)  Is the Sylvan Archer path race specific?

gratzi, in advance


----------



## Amy Kou'ai

I'm immensely curious about the abilities of the Dark Wanderer epic destiny.


----------



## ppaladin123

Amy Kou'ai said:


> I'm immensely curious about the abilities of the Dark Wanderer epic destiny.




This I remember. The dark wanderer can travel anywhere on any plane within 24 hours by simply setting off walking in a random direction. Somehow he always arrives exactly where he wants to go. Also, when a dark wanderer dies his body vanishes. 24 hours later he walks out of the shadows alive and well having traveled back from the shores of death. 

It is flavorful and really neat. I want to build a ranger for this destiny.


----------



## Bagpuss

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> The trick with Rangers seems to be: Forget Bows. Use Heavy Thrown weapons and be a versatile killing machine.




Except the ranged powers would still require you to use Dexterity for attack and damage, so there is no advantage to using Heavy Thrown weapons with them. The using Strength for Heavy Thrown weapons only applies for the Ranged Basic Attack.


----------



## firesnakearies

ppaladin123 said:


> This I remember. The dark wanderer can travel anywhere on any plane within 24 hours by simply setting off walking in a random direction. Somehow he always arrives exactly where he wants to go. Also, when a dark wanderer dies his body vanishes. 24 hours later he walks out of the shadows alive and well having traveled back from the shores of death.






Cool.



$


----------



## Doctor Proctor

Bagpuss said:


> Except the ranged powers would still require you to use Dexterity for attack and damage, so there is no advantage to using Heavy Thrown weapons with them. The using Strength for Heavy Thrown weapons only applies for the Ranged Basic Attack.




Quite true.  The power description of the attack stat always trumps anything else.  This is why a Rogue can have awesome melee attacks that key off Dex, but can't hit to save his life with an OA because it's a basic melee attack.


----------



## Rechan

Any Heroic Tier fighter feats or powers for polearms? Yes, I know the Polearm Master PP is in there.

(Subsequently, I had preordered MP from Amazon, I'm just anxious for the dang thing to get here).


----------



## Byronic

I kinda like the Ravager, in some ways I kinda think it's more like the Barbarian then the Barbarian (except for the lack of Raging)


----------



## Caliber

Any word on some of the new multiclass feats? We've gotten some hints at them earlier in the thread, but I'm curious about an example. Please?


----------



## Rechan

Caliber said:


> Any word on some of the new multiclass feats? We've gotten some hints at them earlier in the thread, but I'm curious about an example. Please?



I mentioned one before: Paragon feat that requires you to have taken the Fighter MC Paragon option. In exchange, you get the Fighter Superiority class feature.

For the Ranger, one gave Prime Shot, and the other allowed you to use a one-handed weapon in the off-hand.

IIRC, another gave the Rogue's "First strike", the Warlord one gave Combat Leader.

While several require the "Paragon MC" option, a few don't.


----------



## Caliber

Rechan said:


> I mentioned one before: Paragon feat that requires you to have taken the Fighter MC Paragon option. In exchange, you get the Fighter Superiority class feature.
> 
> For the Ranger, one gave Prime Shot, and the other allowed you to use a one-handed weapon in the off-hand.
> 
> IIRC, another gave the Rogue's "First strike", the Warlord one gave Combat Leader.
> 
> While several require the "Paragon MC" option, a few don't.




Ah, so you did! Its easy to miss something in a thread this chock full of stuff! Mucho gracias for the help though, that kind of info is precisely what I was interested in. I'm hoping MP will be waiting for me when I get home today ...


----------



## thecasualoblivion

I apologize to those of you who still have question, but seeing that the book is now officially available, I'm going to bow out.


----------



## Shroomy

ppaladin123 said:


> This I remember. The dark wanderer can travel anywhere on any plane within 24 hours by simply setting off walking in a random direction. Somehow he always arrives exactly where he wants to go. Also, when a dark wanderer dies his body vanishes. 24 hours later he walks out of the shadows alive and well having traveled back from the shores of death.
> 
> It is flavorful and really neat. I want to build a ranger for this destiny.




This, this I love.  Epic destinies are one of my favorite features of 4e because of stuff like this.


----------



## Doctor Proctor

thecasualoblivion said:


> I apologize to those of you who still have question, but seeing that the book is now officially available, I'm going to bow out.




Well, thanks for all the info you provided.  Hopefully it will encourage others to pick the book up.  Now I just have to wait for mine to get here...


----------



## Jack99

Rechan said:


> Any Heroic Tier fighter feats or powers for polearms? Yes, I know the Polearm Master PP is in there.
> 
> (Subsequently, I had preordered MP from Amazon, I'm just anxious for the dang thing to get here).




Yes. Polearm Momentum (knock pushed or slid enemy prone with polearm, if target is pushed or slid more than 1 square)


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Bagpuss said:


> Except the ranged powers would still require you to use Dexterity for attack and damage, so there is no advantage to using Heavy Thrown weapons with them. The using Strength for Heavy Thrown weapons only applies for the Ranged Basic Attack.




Dang! There goes my evil plan of world domination via strong Rangers... Good catch.


----------



## ff6shadow

Mustrum, you may want to try your DM on that idea. I know I'd allow it.


----------



## Lizard

Having picked up the book, I find it quite useful, though I was hoping (as always, in vain) for more outside-of-the-encounter material. Less than 30% of game time (for my group, at least) occurs in "encounters", but 95% of the 4e rules focus on them. (You have a Guildmaster Paragon Path, and all it does is give you More Ways To Kill People -- where's the guidelines on, y'know, running a guild? Making contacts/connections? Bribing guards? Anything beyond "You can borrow some action points"? Sheesh. Anyway...)

For that part of your game that DOES take place in encounters, this book provides Yet More Ways To Do N[W]+Effect, something you can never have too many of. The beast build for rangers is excellent, one of the first things I'd say 4e does BETTER than 3e in terms of building a true "pet using" class, ala EQ's Beastmasters, WOW Hunters and Warhammer's White Lions/Squig Herders. (4e now lets me build two of my all time favorite MMORPG characters, and if they follow the pattern for necromancers, a third.) The book also starts having some hints -- not enough, but some -- about how to flavor text your powers, how to think about what you're DOING when you use things like Hunter's Quarry, etc. And it has, frankly, the perfect PP for my PC, the Ruthless Avenger (or something like that). Fits perfectly. 

About half the stuff in this book REALLY should have been in core. Given that, I'd call it damn near essential for anyone playing 4e; it fills in a tremendous amount of missing/overlooked options.


----------



## Rechan

Jack99 said:


> Yes. Polearm Momentum (knock pushed or slid enemy prone with polearm, if target is pushed or slid more than 1 square)



Except there are no fighter powers that push or slide foes more than 1 square.


----------



## thecasualoblivion

Rechan said:


> Except there are no fighter powers that push or slide foes more than 1 square.




But there is a feat that increases push and slide with spears by 1 square I believe.


----------



## Rechan

thecasualoblivion said:


> But there is a feat that increases push and slide with spears by 1 square I believe.



Paragon tier, tho. I was asking about Heroic tier.


----------



## Zsig

Rechan said:


> Paragon tier, tho. I was asking about Heroic tier.



You could try and get your hands into some Gauntlets of the Ram.


----------



## Bagpuss

Rechan said:


> Except there are no fighter powers that push or slide foes more than 1 square.




Get Over Here - Fighter Utility 2 - slides an opponent up to 2 squares.


----------



## Hellgrammite

What do you guys think of the Shield Adept Paragon Path for the fighter?

encounter attack= immediate interrupt to stop an adjacent enemy from attacking your allies (stunned till end of next turn)
Utility, daily= stance, you and allies adjacent to you gain cover against ranged and area attacks.
Daily:  immediate interrupt, adjacent enemy misses with his attack, dazed and weakend until end of next turn (save ends both) --no attack roll though!

Def.  going to go Warlord and multiclass into this one.


---already mentioned, but Sharpshooter paragon path = legolas.

Not exactly original....but still cool.


----------



## Zsig

Bagpuss said:


> Get Over Here - Fighter Utility 2 - slides an opponent up to 2 squares.



I think you meant ally?


----------



## Rechan

Zsig said:


> I think you meant ally?



I think he means "Come and Get It".


----------



## Doctor Proctor

Rechan said:


> I think he means "Come and Get It".




No, he said Utility 2, so I think he misread it.  However, Come and Get It is an Encounter 7 and pulls enemies up to 2 squares to a square adjacent to you.  So it would fit the bill just fine.

Edit: Fixed power level


----------



## Rechan

Doctor Proctor said:


> No, he said Utility 2, so I think he misread it.  However, Come and Get It is an Encounter 3 and pulls enemies up to 2 squares to a square adjacent to you.  So it would fit the bill just fine.



Come and Get It is 7th level.


----------



## Doctor Proctor

Rechan said:


> Come and Get It is 7th level.




Whoops.  Yeah, the Encounter 3 burst isn't a push.  Even still though, it's Heroic tier...just late Heroic.


----------



## Jack99

Rechan said:


> Paragon tier, tho. I was asking about Heroic tier.






Rechan said:


> Except there are no fighter powers that push or slide foes more than 1 square.




Didn't think much about it. Just opened the book to answer your question, haven't had the time to read it thoroughly yet.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

ff6shadow said:


> Mustrum, you may want to try your DM on that idea. I know I'd allow it.




I am actually not really planning to play that or a similar character, and it was the idea of another player.  I would probably allow it, too, or if in doubt, allow some kind of feat prerequisite.

(Generally a nice idea: If you think something _might_ be overpowered, make it a multiclass feat. Only one overpowered choice per character  )


----------



## Bagpuss

Zsig said:


> I think you meant ally?




Yes... sorry my mistake. Still you can have lots of fun knocking allies over until Paragon tier.


----------



## Bagpuss

Rechan said:


> Come and Get It is 7th level.




I thought about that, but the opponents have to shift towards you, rather than you pull or slide them. So you can't use it with that.


----------



## Zsig

Bagpuss said:


> I thought about that, but the opponents have to shift towards you, rather than you pull or slide them. So you can't use it with that.



Not really, as of the last errata update, they changed it to a pull instead of shift.


----------



## Bagpuss

Zsig said:


> Not really, as of the last errata update, they changed it to a pull instead of shift.




Right so now you can knock them all prone with your polearm? They will need to errata it back at this rate.


----------



## firesnakearies

Bagpuss said:


> Yes... sorry my mistake. Still you can have lots of fun knocking allies over until Paragon tier.





The thought of this made me laugh.


_"Damn and blast it, Regdar!  I swear by Moradin's beard, if you trip me with that STUPID glaive while I'm trying to smash kobolds ONE more time, I'm never healing you again!  And you can FORGET about me sharing my 'special holy water' with you any more, too!"
_


----------



## Aristotle

Got my books yesterday. I'm really happy with martial power. It delivers a lot of options for martial characters. Also got the Dragon book. They accidentally sent me two coppies of that one, but only charged me for one. Pitty it wasn't the martial power book. I might have actually had some use for two of those.


----------



## Lizard

Aristotle said:


> Also got the Dragon book.




Sweet!

What level is Cthulhu?

EDIT: Never mind, you fixed your typo faster than I could respond.


----------



## NilesB

Rechan said:


> Except there are no fighter powers that push or slide foes more than 1 square.



One of the new fighter at wills can if you have a reach weapon.


----------



## Bagpuss

NilesB said:


> One of the new fighter at wills can if you have a reach weapon.




Which most polearms are... so now we have an at-will that can knock targets prone, if the attack hits.


----------



## The Little Raven

Bagpuss said:


> Right so now you can knock them all prone with your polearm? They will need to errata it back at this rate.




If you're referring to Polearm Momentum (if you push or slide an enemy 2 or more squares), then no, Come and Get It does not gain the benefit, since it only applies to pushes and slides, not pulls.


----------



## Rechan

The Little Raven said:


> If you're referring to Polearm Momentum (if you push or slide an enemy 2 or more squares), then no, Come and Get It does not gain the benefit, since it only applies to pushes and slides, not pulls.



So we're back to "What powers let you push/slide more than 1 square" in the heroic tier.


----------



## The Little Raven

Rechan said:


> So we're back to "What powers let you push/slide more than 1 square" in the heroic tier.




The only one that pops to mind is the new at-will, Footwork Lure, which would allow a person with a reach weapon to hit an opponent, shift 1 square, then slide the opponent into that square (which would be a 2 square slide).


----------



## Bagpuss

The Little Raven said:


> The only one that pops to mind is the new at-will, Footwork Lure, which would allow a person with a reach weapon to hit an opponent, shift 1 square, then slide the opponent into that square (which would be a 2 square slide).




So there is an at-will power that lets you knock the opponent prone (with the feat) from the Heroic tier? Doesn't seem very balanced to me. I suspect Footwork Lure will get an errata to be a *Pull*.


----------



## Rechan

Bagpuss said:


> So there is an at-will power that lets you knock the opponent prone (with the feat) from the Heroic tier? Doesn't seem very balanced to me. I suspect Footwork Lure will get an errata to be a *Pull*.



Technically, you need the Polearm momentum AND the Paragon Tier Spear Push feat (+1 to push with a polearm or spear). 

Which is why I don't get why Polearm Momentum is Heroic tier when you can't use it wtih any power in the Heroic tier until you get the Spear Push.


----------



## Bagpuss

Rechan said:


> Technically, you need the Polearm momentum AND the Paragon Tier Spear Push feat (+1 to push with a polearm or spear).
> 
> Which is why I don't get why Polearm Momentum is Heroic tier when you can't use it with any power in the Heroic tier until you get the Spear Push.




But you can with *Footwork Lure* you can shift one space then shift the opponent you hit into the space you were in. *With a reach weapon*, that is a 2 square shift for the opponent. So that is a 1st level At-Will power you can use it with. So you don't need the Spear Push feat only Polearm Momentum, hence my suggestion that Footwork Lure be changed to a pull rather than shift, or give the *Melee 1* range if it doesn't already have it.


----------



## Doctor Proctor

No, it's melee weapon range, not melee 1.


----------



## WalterKovacs

Bagpuss said:


> So there is an at-will power that lets you knock the opponent prone (with the feat) from the Heroic tier? Doesn't seem very balanced to me. I suspect Footwork Lure will get an errata to be a *Pull*.




However if you were to shift adjacent to the target, you can't pull him into your old square. Only by sliding can you get the opponent into the square you left regardless of which direction you shift.


----------



## Bagpuss

WalterKovacs said:


> However if you were to shift adjacent to the target, you can't pull him into your old square. Only by sliding can you get the opponent into the square you left regardless of which direction you shift.




True but a pull would mean you have the option of three squares you could shift to, and still pull which kind of reflects Tide of Iron where you only have a choice of three squares to push your target into.

Still Polearm Momentum, needs Dex 15 and Wis 15, if you are buying them as a fighter you are likely to be suffering in Str and Con, so knocking people prone isn't that great if you can't survive the hits or hit things yourself.


----------



## IanArgent

Bagpuss said:


> True but a pull would mean you have the option of three squares you could shift to, and still pull which kind of reflects Tide of Iron where you only have a choice of three squares to push your target into.
> 
> Still Polearm Momentum, needs Dex 15 and Wis 15, if you are buying them as a fighter you are likely to be suffering in Str and Con, so knocking people prone isn't that great if you can't survive the hits or hit things yourself.




Nice for the Elf Fighter, though. (The Eladrin Fighter likes it as well, what with Eladrin Weapon Prof)


----------

