# Perfect edition update (kinda + thread)



## GMforPowergamers (Jul 7, 2022)

So there is an update coming in 2024... maybe 5.5 maybe 6e most likely witch ever it is (or how we refer to it) WotC will push it as "50th Anniversary D&D"

overall I can't imagine they will EVER abandon the base d20 system that 3e,3.5,4e,and 5e are built on... but as Star Wars Saga, Mutants and Masterminds, and other systems have shown us (Deadlands d20 and D20 Cthulhu also) you can make BIG changes (again like 3/4/5es) and still use that frame work.   However I would bet dollars to donuts the frame work will look MORE like 5e then any of those others...

but we have threads talking about Vitality and wounds, as well as 100+ threads edition waring about fighter and caster discrepancy.  But without fighting, without putting down (although still maybe working off each other) what would YOUR perfect 2024 PHB look like?

This isn't for "what's most likely" or "this is what I am thinking it will be" but if you could alter reality so the dev team saw things your way... what would the 2024 PHB look like...

I have this labeled 'kinda +' so please don't tear down others ideas... even if you are going to post the opposite of someone let your ideas stand on there own not as 'better' then others.


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## BookTenTiger (Jul 7, 2022)

I'm really enjoying 5e, and I have Level Up for my crunchy needs, so I don't actually want too many changes for 5.5...

_But..._

If I found a D&D Genie and got to make a wish for a new edition that combined everything I liked from every edition I ever played (and magically everyone else would love it too), it would look something like this:

Basic Chassis: 5e (this system just works very well- bounded accuracy, advantage, etc)
Monsters: 4e (the coolest monsters)
Feats: 3e (more feats! But change the trap feats)
GM-less Play: Ironsworn

Oh yeah, I threw in a rogue element there. Ironsworn has a bunch of "Oracle Tables" you can use to generate enemy actions, plot twists, settlement characteristics, NPC goals, etc. I think it would be so cool if a new edition or update included a whole section on how to run D&D without a DM. And I say this as someone who loves to run games!


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## Vaalingrade (Jul 7, 2022)

Feats. Just a whole bunch of feats to build your character custom. Good feats. No chains longer than 3, but plenty of branches.

 Minimal class and species chassis with minimal designer imposition of expectations. 

Absolutely no bounded accuracy and actual bonuses alongside an advantage mechanic.

No monster allowed in without a cool power.

Rework multiclassing until it works or don't do it.


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## delericho (Jul 7, 2022)

GMforPowergamers said:


> But without fighting, without putting down (although still maybe working off each other) what would YOUR perfect 2024 PHB look like?



Honestly, my 'perfect' PHB wouldn't look much different from what we have now - a significant number of small tweaks to do things like rebalance the Ranger, and (hopefully) an over-and-done-with scrub of the lore to fix the problematic areas so we can move on, but leave it mostly as-is. That said, I've been reading through Level Up recently, and the Heritage/Culture/Background/Destiny split is inspired, so...

But where I'm really hoping for changes are in the DMG and the MM.

IMO, the DMG needs a pretty significant rewrite. Some sections are mechanically okay but need a rewrite for clarity; a lot of it is just dross. So cut the dross, and replace it with a lot of more directly usable material - lots of examples of adventure design, templates for various areas, how-to guides, and so on.

And the MM suffers mostly from being done early in the design process, and monster design having moved on very significantly since. So while the content is fine, I'd quite like to see a top-to-bottom redesign of those monsters to bring them up to standard. Oh, and I'd really like to see stat blocks for 'standard' elves, dwarves, gnomes, etc in there - the omission of those is one of those "proud nails" that serves as a small but regular annoyance.


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## GMforPowergamers (Jul 7, 2022)

MIne would keep 5e frame with a few small changes:

Advantage/Disadvantage and Concentration will remain 100% the same

race...use the Monsters of the multiverse style... 

the prof would be 1/3 level +1 (so 1 at 1st level 2 at 3rd 3 at 6th 4 at 9th 5 at 12th 6 at 15th and 7 at 18th) BUT non prof would go up on the 6's so every skill/save/attack you are not prof in would get +1 at 6th +2 at 12th and +3 at 18th... and this prof/non prof kind  a adds to AC too.  Everyone adds the non prof bonus to there AC but if you are prof in a shield and using it you can choose to use your reaction to add your full prof to your AC as a reaction (instead of +1/+2 AC

ASI/Feats the default would be feat, and 80% of feats would be what we now call half feats (+1 to 1 stat and a bonus ability) and most classes would get them at 4,8,14, and 18... and you can choose to take +2 to 1 stat or +1 to 2 stats in place of a feat... BUT there would also be a ASI at level 11 of +2 to 1 stat and +1 to the other 5. this could not be replaced with a feat.

3e Prestige class mixed with 4e paragon path and epic destines would be core... around 5th level you can take 1 of these and again around 17th you can. You have to meet the prereqs but they are more like subclasses they add to your character not replace (so a 3rd level rogue 2nd level wizard picks up a paragon class but still gets to take either 4th rogue or 3rd wizard on top)

Subclasses will be uniform... everyone gets 2 subclasses that are mix and match (based on how warlock is now) 1st and 3rd and some (but not all) subclasses are shared... so at level 3 either a fighter or a rogue can take 'swash buckler' or a bard, cleric, or wizard could all take 'lore master'

Classes... I would break fighter and wizard up... 3  fighters 4 wizards.  fighter A based on champion (the simple fighter) fighter B (I would want to be a warlord but maybe a sword sage) based on mixing the 4e fighter and the battle master, and FIghter C would be the gish class mixing eldritch knight and blade singer.    Wizard would be based on late term 3.5 classes,  Warmage, Beguiler, Summoner, and Necromancer.  Doing this will allow for more subclass and class feture options in each. (and in the gish and the broken up wizard case each has a spell list so no 1 class has most of teh spells)
Cleric I would go back to 2e for and give domains more like spheres... so yeah you get a small list of 'all clerics can cast' but each cleric would then be making there own list of spells by mixing and matching domains.
Rogue sneak attack will be more multiclass friendly (kind of) it would be 1d4 per prof (so level 1 rogue level 19 fighter has 7d4) but at levels the rouge upgrades the die code to d6, d8 and d10 (I am hesitant to give +7d12 but maybe)

Hitpoints... EVERYONE GETS LESS.  1st all HD go down 1 die code... wizard/sorcerer d4, cleric rogue monk warlock ect D6, fighter ranger paladin D8 and barbarians d10s... 2nd everyone starts with 3HD, but only gets +1 HD every odd level (so at level 19 you have 13HD) and you get a set amount of hp at even levels... and Con bonus doesn't go to HP... but when you spend HD to heal you get to add Con mod.

Healing... low level spells and some abilities (remember I want the warlord back) have you spend HD, and better/higher level magic lets you heal AS IF you spent 1 (or multi) HD. 

other spells... yes we are keeping concentration, but I still want OTHER draw backs like 2e had... haste ageing you a year ect...
BUT also I want rituals to be more like 4e...I guess this is it's own one

Rituals. Any spell that take more then 1 round to cast will count as a ritual and have a costly component... (any spell that takes 1 action will not have a costly component too) This means that identify, legend lore, planar ally, demi plane ect ect and they can still be class specific, but a ritual caster feat can do that too...  (BONUS not needed but would be cool if multi casters could combine ritual casting to make it better)

Monsters.... With the PC changes monster will have to both have less HP and deal less damage.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Jul 7, 2022)

Get the rules down to 5 pages. No more. Possibly less.


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## payn (Jul 7, 2022)

Bring back prestige classes.


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## Vaalingrade (Jul 7, 2022)

payn said:


> Bring back prestige classes.



This. But without onerous or nonsensical requirements.

If your PrC's prerequisite list needs to go to a second line, it needs to go into revisions.


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## payn (Jul 7, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> This. But without onerous or nonsensical requirements.
> 
> If your PrC's prerequisite list needs to go to a second line, it needs to go into revisions.



Yeap, I can agree with that.


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## Cadence (Jul 7, 2022)

payn said:


> Bring back prestige classes.






Vaalingrade said:


> This. But without onerous or nonsensical requirements.
> 
> If your PrC's prerequisite list needs to go to a second line, it needs to go into revisions.




Would something like the really expansive archetypes in PF 1e fill that need?


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## GMforPowergamers (Jul 7, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> This. But without onerous or nonsensical requirements.
> 
> If your PrC's prerequisite list needs to go to a second line, it needs to go into revisions.



1 line for a single stat/feat/feature/mechanic and 1 line for an RP requirment should be max...

Example:   Lore Master Int 13+, must have spent at least X amount of time in libraries studding manuscripts


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## Vaalingrade (Jul 7, 2022)

payn said:


> Yeap, I can agree with that.



Tangent: I distinctly remember a PrC that required you to solo and kill a monster of CR equal to your level or higher for no other reason other than to join the connected organization. Which meant in order to take the PRC, you needed to 1) fight an entire combat where the other players are just sitting there, watching, Fight a combat that will absolutely kill you, and 3) have a character who can sense the CRs of creatures around them.

Between that and the Assassin's 'be a moron to join our murder club' thing, I'm leery of organization PrCs to this day even for my non-stupid world orgs.


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## Vaalingrade (Jul 7, 2022)

Cadence said:


> Would something like the really expansive archetypes in PF 1e fill that need?



It wouldn't fill the need, but it would also be welcome.

More customization! Subclass, PrCs, backgrounds, archetypes, feats, sweet magical frippery that does nothing mechanical like a cape that always flutters dramatically, a ring that makes your teeth do the 'ting' gleam when you smile, or an invisible shirt that makes your abs look awesome.

More I say!

~breaks mug on the floor dramatically~


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## Agametorememberbooks (Jul 7, 2022)

There are a slew of great ideas in here. I love the idea of getting the rules down to 5 pages or less as per the post above. I also agree with the post about using the new Mordenkainen’s format on playable races; one-page format is precisely the type of thing I go for…which is why we created the DM supplement that we did.

I also agree that 4e monsters were super fun to run as a DM. I’ve never had as much fun using monsters. I still use the minion mechanic to this day. My heroes don’t know it, but they enjoyed the swarm of 34 mongrelfolk aboard their ship this past Saturday.

I’d also love to see the introductory fluff sentence at the start of abilities removed. Anyone can look up episodes of countless streamed games online and learn how to add the fluff to their game. Just get to the point of what an ability does and let us be the creatives.

I’d also love to be able to buy a physical book, and have it come with a digital copy that I can keep on my iPad (Not necessarily an Edition thing).


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## payn (Jul 7, 2022)

Cadence said:


> Would something like the really expansive archetypes in PF 1e fill that need?



I want those too, in addition!


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## payn (Jul 7, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> Tangent: I distinctly remember a PrC that required you to solo and kill a monster of CR equal to your level or higher for no other reason other than to join the connected organization. Which meant in order to take the PRC, you needed to 1) fight an entire combat where the other players are just sitting there, watching, Fight a combat that will absolutely kill you, and 3) have a character who can sense the CRs of creatures around them.
> 
> Between that and the Assassin's 'be a moron to join our murder club' thing, I'm leery of organization PrCs to this day even for my non-stupid world orgs.



I like prestige classes being extra flavorful, but yes they had some cumbersome requirements both mechanical and flavorful over the years.


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## Stormonu (Jul 7, 2022)

Basically, have them incorporate my homebrew material (though playtested, of course).

The highlights would be:

Extra feat at 1st level, possibly sourced from race.  A racial ability at 5th level, and again at 10th level, maybe 15th as well.

 add a 1/2 to 3/4 arcane caster/martial class (Eldritch Knight less focused on martial and more on magic, Swordmage, Bladesinger, Arcane Archer and all those designs can hang off that class instead of fighter).

Sorcerer origin decoupled from subclass, similar to Warlock Patron/Subclass.  More non-combat spells added to the sorcerer list so it doesn’t have to be a blaster all the time.

Warlock’s Eldritch Blast is a class feature, not a spell.  Option to make it a melee weapon instead of a ranged attack.

Monk’s spell-like abilities aren’t fixed by level, but instead chosen from a list, like invocations.  Also, give the monk martial art styles (like Mantis Style or Tiger Style) to allow customization of how they fight/defend themselves.

Hit point accumulation greatly slows at 10th level, or only gained every other level.

Remove excessive Concentration requirements from many Druid spells, such as Barkskin.  Drop the “no metal” speech from the class.

Add back some additional weapon qualities (crit range & multiplier) to further differentiate weapons and reduced the “best weapon all the time” state of the weapon list.


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## Vaalingrade (Jul 7, 2022)

Stormonu said:


> Warlock’s Eldritch Blast is a class feature, not a spell.  Option to make it a melee weapon instead of a ranged attack.



My god, how have I not thought of a melee EB?

The Punch Wizzard rides again!


Stormonu said:


> Remove excessive Concentration requirements from many Druid spells, such as Barkskin.  Drop the “no metal” speech from the class.



Amen to both.


Stormonu said:


> Add back some additional weapon qualities (crit range & multiplier) to further differentiate weapons and reduced the “best weapon all the time” state of the weapon list.



I miss crit ranges so much. I find myself rolling 19's and then getting kinda depressed.


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## payn (Jul 7, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> I miss crit ranges so much. I find myself rolling 19's and then getting kinda depressed.



This.


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## GMforPowergamers (Jul 7, 2022)

Stormonu said:


> Warlock’s Eldritch Blast is a class feature, not a spell.  Option to make it a melee weapon instead of a ranged attack.



more things like that too would be cool... I like class features for spell casters over more spell bloat


Stormonu said:


> Hit point accumulation greatly slows at 10th level, or only gained every other level.



yeah... getting the HP inflation under control is a big deal


Stormonu said:


> Remove excessive Concentration requirements from many Druid spells, such as Barkskin.  Drop the “no metal” speech from the class.



yeah... concentration is great but like mage armor some melee range spells should not have it


Stormonu said:


> Add back some additional weapon qualities (crit range & multiplier) to further differentiate weapons and reduced the “best weapon all the time” state of the weapon list.



I forgot about that... yes brutal and increased crit range maybe more accurate... reach, I would love for weapons to have different ideas.


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## bitspersecond (Jul 7, 2022)

Some pieces I would add into my game:


Better monster design, specifically around 
more spell-like effects rather than spell so that players can't just shut down everything with counterspell.
more templates so that DMs don't feel hamstrung around how a monster is presented but are more open to tweak creatures
more action-oriented monsters / legendary-like monsters a la Matt Colville to make boss fights feel more epic

Introduce a 'dramatic scene' encounter system that unlock cool new powers that both monsters and players can use for specific encounters that kick things up a notch for encounters/scenes that are meant to be, and feel, epic.  Having it as a mechanical effect clues players into what's happening in a blatantly obvious way.  Idea adapted from FantasyCraft.
I would add more options with hit dice such as spending them for martial effects and giving them to spell casters for slots or spell points in some way (particularly sorcerers since that feels thematically correct to me, as well as some warlocks).
I would experiment with doing away with spell slots, at least for wizards, and put limits on how often specific spells can be cast (still requiring a certain class level to cast them).  Combine with needing a roll to cast successfully.  Upcasting would be banished without expensive spell components  -- that's where the energy comes from for upcasting the spell and encourages adventuring for the components and supports the exploration pillar of play.  Personally, I like the idea of harvesting monster parts, too, supporting the combat pillar (not that it needs much more support).
Add a tiered mechanic (similar to Cypher System) for gaining hit points from hit dice w/o requiring healing or a full short rest:
Once per long rest, spend a bonus action and spend 1 hit die to gain that die+CON on hit points to 'catch your breath'
Then, same thing, but it costs you a full action (obviously this doesn't apply to 1st level characters)
Then, same thing, but it costs you 1 minute (doesn't apply to 1st/2nd level characters)
Reset everything after a long rest

Make long rests more dangerous: You can keep watch for a 2 hour period during your 8 hour long rest ... but if anything disturbs you during the remaining time you don't get the benefit of the long rest -- this is to encourage those on watch to deal with encounters without just waking the entire party and making it more nail biting/tense.  It's the classic movie scene where the one character wanders off to investigate that odd noise.
Hardcore mode ... limiting HP, creating vitality points out of constitution ... something optional for campaigns that want to go that route.


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## Malmuria (Jul 7, 2022)

Core game: levels 1-10
Additional supplements: levels 11-20 (with prestige classes, more feats, variant class features)

3 subclasses for each core phb class (pare cleric and wizard subclass options especially)

Organize spells into arcane and divine, and then organize by level. 

Use the front inside covers as a quick rules reference

cross reference using page numbers

Include a ~40 page running the game section for dms that includes advice on 1. how to run the game, 2. quick-start adventure creation and sample adventure, 3. session 0 and social contract stuff, and 4. some basic magic items for your intro adventure
(the idea of a $50 dmg as a core book has outstayed its welcome, imo.  There's no shortage of dm advice out there, and wotc I think has started to make its own online content for dms.)

edit: get rid of bonus actions and counterspell


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## OB1 (Jul 7, 2022)

Take the 2014 PHB and expand it slightly

Make most optional rules from XGtE and TCoE the new standard, leaving the 2014 rules in as optional
Add Artificer and several popular sub-classes from XGtE and TCoE
Rework Race rules using MMotM standard.  Add 3-4 popular races from other books
Make Feats standard with ASI and Multiclassing optional
Add all spells from XGtE and TCoE
Rework Monster Manual in MMotM style

Rework DMG.  1/3 focused on tips for running modules, 1/3 on magic items, 1/3 on tips for home brewing


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## Mecheon (Jul 7, 2022)

Warlords and Psions are in
Sorcerers are done up as more of a free form caster where, rather than just casting spells, you spend points for the desired outcome. Can mimic the regular spells with this, but it’s free form and gives sorc its own niche 

That’s all I got that so far


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## Minigiant (Jul 7, 2022)

1) More classes
2) Empower other subsystems 
3) Finalize the ideas of Tier 3 and 4


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## Eltab (Jul 7, 2022)

A usable _Index_ that locates, not conceals, information.

4e-style monster 'job descriptions' (lurker, artillery, &c).

Separate fluff and crunch in spell descriptions.  (Class features too.)  The crunch should be written to clearly describe how the spell works.


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## Vaalingrade (Jul 7, 2022)

OH yeah, delete the wizard. Add it back in in a supplement two years later. Only provide real support for Abjurer and illusionist. Tiny Hut is an automatically gained spell at level 2.


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## CleverNickName (Jul 8, 2022)

GMforPowergamers said:


> So there is an update coming in 2024... maybe 5.5 maybe 6e most likely witch ever it is (or how we refer to it) WotC will push it as "50th Anniversary D&D"
> 
> overall I can't imagine they will EVER abandon the base d20 system that 3e,3.5,4e,and 5e are built on... but as Star Wars Saga, Mutants and Masterminds, and other systems have shown us (Deadlands d20 and D20 Cthulhu also) you can make BIG changes (again like 3/4/5es) and still use that frame work.   However I would bet dollars to donuts the frame work will look MORE like 5e then any of those others...
> 
> ...



Unpopular opinion:  I'd breathe a sigh of relief if this much-hyped "50th Anniversary D&D" turns out to be just a 5E reprint of the core rulebooks, but with errata and a leather cover.  That is what I'm hoping they do, and I make sure to mention that in every survey they send out.

See, here's the thing.  I'm not shopping for a new edition, and I'm not going to switch to something drastically different from what I'm already using and accustomed to.  Sure, there's still 2 long years for me to reconsider that stance, but it's going to be a long uphill battle to talk me into buying new books.  (Seriously, I looked it up:  according to Amazon, my 5E hardcopy library would cost $431 if I were to purchase it today, and according to the Roll20 Marketplace, my digital compendium would cost $450.  I don't know what that says about me as a person, but here we are.)

I'm really only interested in an updated set of core rulebooks that combines all of the errata, plus all the materials from _Xanathar's, Tasha's, Mordenkainen's, Volo's, Fizban's, _etc. into a single three-book set.  That's pretty much it:  I want a fancy reprint of what I already have...not a new game or a new game edition.

I told you it was an unpopular opinion.

But who knows?  Two years is a long time for me to change my mind.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Jul 8, 2022)

They core rulebooks are setting-agnostic. No listed alignments for the general player races, because what alignment might fit for Toril won't fit for Eberron or Dark Sun. No gods are mentioned unless it specifically says "_in the Forgotten Realms/Krynn/Oerth/etc_".

More classes work like the Warlock (especially Fighters). You get your Subclass at level 1 (which gives you additional benefits when you level up), Eldritch Invocation-style features at level 2 (getting more at later levels), and a "Pact" at level 3 (So, like the Martial classes getting a Fighting Style, but with a bit more mechanical crunch).

The Artificer becomes a core class and gets as many subclasses in later books as every other class.

The adventuring day is shortened to 2-3 combat encounters every day.

There are Mythic Monsters in the Monster Manual (probably the Tarrasque, Liches/Demiliches, Death Knights, and maybe some high-CR Celestials). Oh, and there are at least two monsters of every Challenge Rating in the Monster Manual. And similar monsters are put together, not all alphabetical (so all Goblinoids are in the "G" section, like how the 4 main Elementals are grouped together in the 5e MM).

The Dungeon Master's Guide gives more advice for beginner DMs to learn why specific parts of the system are designed the way they are. It would explain better how to make a homebrew class/race/weapon of similar power to the PHB ones instead of mainly saying "reflavor something else".


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## Parmandur (Jul 8, 2022)

Basically the same core as 5E, with the Tasha's and Monsters of the Multiverse changes built in, along with the Feat at 1st tied to a Background fir everyone.

Plus...reworking the Classes so that Short Rests aren't assumed, and stripping as much assumed flavor as possible and putting that on Backgrounds (Thieves Can't fir a Criminal Background, not the Rogue Class, no Orientalism or Monasticism for the Martisl Artist, etc.).


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## Horwath (Jul 8, 2022)

payn said:


> Bring back prestige classes.



please no.

anything from prestige class can be made into feats with little higher level requirement.


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## Horwath (Jul 8, 2022)

What I would like to see:

more options for customization.

feat slots at levels; 1,1,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20. 
make all feats equal to current half feats(break some full feats into two feats if need be).
this would give 12 total of "half feats"
With 2 (half) feats at 1st level, it's not a hige impact if some race get the 3rd (half)feat at 1st level

at levels 5,9,13,17 you get +1 ASI, that can be exchanged for a (half)feat.

at levels 3,7,11,15,19 you get additional skill proficiency or combinations of 3 tools,languages or weapons.

10th level spells for full casters at 19th class level. One spell slot only.

"racial" ASIs of +2/+2, or +2/+1/+1/+1, or +1/+1/+1/+1/+1/+1.

Clear definition of "racial" features that are "genetic" and learned.

I.E.
"genetic" would be darkvision, higher or lower base speed, movement mods, proficiency(expertise) in Perception or Athletics, various resistances and/or immunities. Innate spellcasting,
while "learned" features would be various other proficiencies(expertise) or advantages on some checks(mostly "knowledge" checks).

Short rests removed or reduced to 1-5 min duration.

Clear rules on Stealth and penalties for Perception per distance and outside conditions.
Clear DCs on Perception for Verbal/Somatic components.

Return of GP cost of magic items or at least sorting out items in Common, Uncommon, rare, very rare, legendary categories.
Now it't just a mess.

fixing the CR system.

ALL spellcasters get at least 3 cantrips when they gain access to spells.

Balance out weapons. raise damage die category for all non-finesse weapons.

Remove stealth penalty from all medium armors or better yet, remove medium armor category.

have light shield(buckler) with +1 AC tied to light armor proficiency.

Unified rules for mounts/companions/familiars/sidekicks/cohorts/etc...
Bonus action to use their Actions except Dodge/Dash/Disengage.

bound the bounded accuracy:
No item can give more than +1 to attack rolls, DCs, saves, AC.

Remove the "set the ability to X" items.
add +2/+4 items with raising the max score for +2/+4. Rare and Very rare category.
If you want high score with magic, invest in that score naturally first.

Have advantage/disadvantage stack to 3 dice max.
Elven accuracy improves 1st source of advantage to 2 sources to max of 4 dice for advantage.


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## Zardnaar (Jul 8, 2022)

My perfect one would incoorate elements vod 3E to 5E with some concepts from OSR. Star Wars Saga as well. 

 Would probably use the 5E engine but the game would be grittier. Less healing but less encounters expected probably 1-4 vs 6-8. 

 Hit point bloat would be reined in. Microfeats would come back. Armor would be overhauled along with feats. 

 Exhaustion or a condition track would be used more. Undead energy drain would cause exhaustion. 

 Class bloat would also be cut down. Would consider letting martials be proficient in all saves and/or level up faster. They're never gonna be able to balance magic vs mundane at a price worth paying.

 Dex to damage would be gone burger aling with the -5/+10 feats.


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## Zardnaar (Jul 8, 2022)

Horwath said:


> please no.
> 
> anything from prestige class can be made into feats with little higher level requirement.




 I would be open to it but different in implementation. 

 Limited to one maybe two if they're related eg Jedi Knight into Master. Just an example I know there's no Jedi in D&D. 

 And a lot less of them and tied to in game organizations.

 Everyone gets feats at 1,3,6,7 etc martials get more and 5E type class features.


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## Zardnaar (Jul 8, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> My god, how have I not thought of a melee EB?
> 
> The Punch Wizzard rides again!
> 
> ...




 I would bring back the 3.0 crit range system I think maybe not X3 though.

 Armor and weapons get an overhaul.


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## EzekielRaiden (Jul 8, 2022)

Despite my misgivings about 5e, it is inarguable that (a) it has brought people into the hobby, and (b) familiarity is important.

So, for me, a "perfect" edition upgrade would need to bring back as much as possible of 4e, without compromising the positive things 5e has brought to the table. This would, necessarily, be a tricky thing, navigating a difficult space. But I think it is possible, albeit there would be a fair amount of testing required.

Things that could be translated (not _simply_ copied!) from 4e:

Healing surges. Probably the single easiest system to translate over, though I have seen criticisms of how 4e approached things that might warrant meaningful changes in doing the translation. I didn't personally agree with those criticisms, but examining such things is one of the most important parts of _testing_.
"At-will" powers for _everyone_, not just casters. Again, this should be pretty easy to import.
Skill Challenges. Ideally iterated and improved upon, learning from how the community handled them (e.g. the "Obsidian Skill Challenge system.")
The 4e perspective on what skills _are_. I don't know why, but 5e has induced some bizarrely narrow, closed-off interpretations of skills, very contrary to the broad, open-ended way 4e skills were presented, even though the text itself doesn't really support such a narrow reading. Baking such open-endedness explicitly into the text would be a significant improvement.
Backgrounds+Themes. 5e BGs are...tolerable. But they could be much better. 4e themes, especially near the end of its run, were really quite good, and present a lot of fun opportunities.
Some classes, in particular Warlord, but also Shaman and Avenger. For the latter two, although it would _emphatically not_ be my preference, I could see them working as subclasses of Druid and Rogue respectively, rather than full classes in their own right. I'd very much prefer full classes, but as I said above, this is a compromise, so I can't get everything I'd like.
Weapon types and properties. I've already spoken about this elsewhere. I think this would add a great deal of richness (and address some of the lingering wonky/uneven balance in 5e's weapon list) while barely affecting the complexity, because weapon properties and types _essentially_ already exist, they're just danced around with oblique references.
Though I know this will be highly controversial....roles. Specifically _subclass_ roles, with the direct, explicit statement that (sub)class roles ARE NOT a limitation on what you're ALLOWED to do, but a clear statement of what you DEFINITELY CAN do. Which...is what 4e roles _always were_, but people apparently need it called out explicitly and repeatedly in order to find it palatable.
Fully decoupling monster stat blocks from PC class/race features. Players don't look at statblocks, DMs do. The vast, _vast_ majority do not need to be constructed as though they were something a player could pick up and use. Where possible, it is of course useful to cut down on unnecessary text by exploiting parallelism and symmetry. But do not put game-design aesthetics ahead of at-the-table functionality. Statblocks must _work_; if they can also be made to look and feel nice, that is lovely, but their _function_ must always come first.
Generally just...actually friggin' TEST the game. Not just ask for qualitative feedback. Do _mathematical_ testing. Get _actual survey design_ people, so you can design surveys that are actually effective at telling you what you need to know, not just push-polls confirming what you already intended to do. (I still remember one of the HORRIBLE polls WotC put up, where one of the questions was straight-up "every answer is yes," but ranging from "enthusiastic yes" to "reluctant yes." It was absolutely infuriating, doubly so because I know for certain that whoever posted that poll had no idea how bad it was.
Things I would simply change, which aren't strictly related to keeping something from either edition:

Significant revision of the Fighter, Monk, Ranger, Rogue, and Warlock classes, particularly the first and last. All of these end up relatively weak in 5e's current design structure, particularly due to their dependence on short rests, or their efforts to be totally rest-independent (looking at _you_, Champion.) Bringing them up to par or even slightly above par would be a huge improvement.
Moderate revisions of the Barbarian, Druid, Sorcerer, and Wizard classes. The Wizard doesn't really need any more _power_, but it desperately yearns for more mechanics to support being a magical _researcher_. Druid mostly just needs Moon to be smoothed out in power; personally, I'd make a specific _list_ of forms that can be taken, so as to make a more regular, natural progression, but there are some other wrinkles here and there to adjust. Sorcerer is straight-up weaker than it should be; bring back the Next Playtest Sorcerer or fix the one we have. Barbarian is okay-ish, but Berserker needs to be yeeted into the sun or fixed because it SUCKS, and several other paths are much weaker than they should be.
Rewrite and simplify unarmed strikes and grappling wherever possible. As usual, unarmed strikes are ridiculously over-complicated for no reason. Just stat it up like an ordinary weapon. Grappling is better than unarmed strikes, but it was even _more_ better in 4e, and I'm sure 5e can come up with its own system (whether 4e-derived or not) that is better.
Separate ASIs from feats. Feats become an optional rule toggle, with five options: no feats at all, feats instead of ASIs, feats _in addition to_ ASIs, feats _instead of_ ASIs, and feats acquired at a different rate (presumably based on total character level, not class level). Add more good feats and remove some feats if they simply can't be brought up to par (some of the "armor mastery" feats, for example, just...aren't good.)
Bring back minor actions, but call them bonus actions (since that's what people are familiar with now). All the ridiculous verbal gymnastics necessary to keep up the charade grows wearying. "You don't _have_ a Bonus Action, things just let you _take_ a Bonus Action sometimes, but you can only take one Bonus Action per turn, and Bonus Actions are _absolutely not_ Actions. Even though they're actions. And other things can let you take bonus Actions, which are not Bonus Actions, even though both things are actions."
5e's fluid rules regarding movement are clearly a big hit, so keep them--but bring back the move action, which you can spend _to have your speed's worth of movement_, OR to do some OTHER thing with your movement. That opens a ton of design space without changing anything about how 5e currently works. Technically, if we ABSOLUTELY HAVE to preserve the "it's not an action" thing, there are similar ridiculous circumlocutions we can do, but I just really really dislike calling a spade a "metalflap soil extrication assistance device" when we can call it a goddamn spade.
Regularize "ancestry" presentation. In my ideal world, implement my list of ancestry options, where each (other than maybe human) has 4 distinct "lineages" or "clans" within each ancestry. Actually friggin' balance them so we don't get issues like the PHB dragonborn a second time.
Unless contradicted above, keep whatever systems are present in 5e. For example, as much as I dislike neo-Vancian spellcasting, it's obviously here to stay, at least until we get a new edition and can try again at fixing that absolute nightmare of a subsystem. Keeping healing more-or-less the way it is, but dependent either on long-rest-based resources (such as spells) or gated via healing surges. Stuff like that. It would take much too long to list all the specific 5e things being kept, so just...presume it's kept unless otherwise specified.

So...yeah. That's what I'd want for my "perfect" 5.5e. I'm absolutely 100% dead certain I'm going to get _maybe at best_ two or three things from the above list. I've made peace with that fact. I'd rather not discuss that specific side of things (whether or not this is plausible) any further, if it's all the same to others.


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## payn (Jul 8, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> I would bring back the 3.0 crit range system I think maybe not X3 though.
> 
> Armor and weapons get an overhaul.



Aw, X3 and X4 weapons were so much fun!


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## payn (Jul 8, 2022)

EzekielRaiden said:


> Though I know this will be highly controversial....roles. Specifically _subclass_ roles, with the direct, explicit statement that (sub)class roles ARE NOT a limitation on what you're ALLOWED to do, but a clear statement of what you DEFINITELY CAN do. Which...is what 4e roles _always were_, but people apparently need it called out explicitly and repeatedly in order to find it palatable.



I don't think that is a distinction you could ever successfully make. If a sub class is good at striking, it will be seen as _only_ striking.


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## EzekielRaiden (Jul 8, 2022)

payn said:


> I don't think that is a distinction you could ever successfully make. If a sub class is good at striking, it will be seen as _only_ striking.



I have more hope for people being able to recognize "this tells you a thing you CAN do" than that, but fair enough I guess.


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## payn (Jul 8, 2022)

EzekielRaiden said:


> I have more hope for people being able to recognize "this tells you a thing you CAN do" than that, but fair enough I guess.



Maybe, I have a teensy bit of hope too, but I have had many experiences at the table/forums with this kind of thing that slaughtered most of the hope I had.


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## Zardnaar (Jul 8, 2022)

payn said:


> Aw, X3 and X4 weapons were so much fun!




 Bit to swingy. 

 I would make them have a higher crit range instead and the rapier wouldn't be the only 18-20 crit weapon. 

 Champion could crit on 15+ using the right weapon.


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## Retreater (Jul 8, 2022)

Get rid of bonus actions. Either make those actions that are labelled "bonus" more impressive and consider them regular actions, fold them into existing actions, or consider them free actions. 

Have spell level actually line up with caster level. The tradition has always confused new players (having 2nd level spells come to a 3rd level caster, 3rd level spells at 5th level, etc.). Spread out the spells like fireball is 5th level and lightning bolt is 6th level (or whatever). [I believe 4e and a few other d20-adjacent games did it this way.]

Create a penalty for dropping to 0 hp and dying then popping up the next round. [Maybe like the PF2e Wounded condition.]

Scale back the number of classes, but increase subclasses - then allow characters who qualify to take those subclasses (similar to prestige classes in previous editions). For example - a ranger, druid, barbarian, or fighter could take "wild hunter." A warlock, wizard, sorcerer, druid, or cleric could take "elementalist." 

Mystify the monsters. Give them cool special abilities and built-in unique resistances (where appropriate). Few should be stock "vanilla" creatures.

In fact, use a labeling system similar to 4e: Brute, Soldier, Artillery, etc. And give us meaningful solo monsters. And minions!

Magic item economy

Guidance for creation of Skill Challenges

A "Basic" game [granted, without a lot of these features] covering maybe levels 1-5. Character creation, iconic monsters, etc., with enough flexibility to run multiple campaigns if someone desires.


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## GMforPowergamers (Jul 8, 2022)

Retreater said:


> Have spell level actually line up with caster level. The tradition has always confused new players (having 2nd level spells come to a 3rd level caster, 3rd level spells at 5th level, etc.). Spread out the spells like fireball is 5th level and lightning bolt is 6th level (or whatever). [I believe 4e and a few other d20-adjacent games did it this way.]



oh yes this would also allow for 1st 2nd  and 3rd 4th level spells to break up what is now 1st/2nd  


Retreater said:


> In fact, use a labeling system similar to 4e: Brute, Soldier, Artillery, etc. And give us meaningful solo monsters. And minions!



yes spell out what each monster is meant for


Retreater said:


> A "Basic" game [granted, without a lot of these features] covering maybe levels 1-5. Character creation, iconic monsters, etc., with enough flexibility to run multiple campaigns if someone desires.



yup...


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## W'rkncacnter (Jul 8, 2022)

GMforPowergamers said:


> This isn't for "what's most likely" or "this is what I am thinking it will be" but if you could alter reality so the dev team saw things your way... what would the 2024 PHB look like...



so, in other words...what if i woke up one day and the whole dev team agreed with me ? hm. well...

ASIs and feats separated and connected to character level instead of class level (probably ASIs at the levels they're at now, and feats at 1st level and every level wherein your prof bonus increases) - and also no more half feats. if you design a feat such that you think you need to put in a +1 ASI in order to make it compete with other feats, you're doing it wrong and you're starting again.
bonus feats/ASIs can be tied to class level, though. i could see fighter having a few bonus feats and monk having a few bonus ASIs, for instance.

subclasses as class feats instead. i don't care for the rigidity of subclasses, honestly.
weapons and armor that actually at least kind of subscribe to reality. like come on, we're still on studded leather? really?
also just more interesting weapons. i want a finesse two-hander, dammit.
also, armor as die reduction instead of dodge bonus? i'd definitely look into that at least.

some sort of bonus to two-handed melee weapon damage that isn't just an increased die. i've personally been thinking of adding your strength again (minimum +1) to damage rolls made with a melee weapon you're two-handing to my own games (not half, because the die still exists and i think the math is just cleaner then adding half your strength or multiplying the total weapon damage result by 1.5).
some sort of wounds/vitality system, even as just an optional rule
a finished crafting and travel system. level up does these well enough, even if i don't really like the idea of gathering incredibly specific components you can only get by specifically going adventuring for them to make magic items when at that point i really think the reward for the quest should just be that magic item, but it's better then the basically nothing normal 5e has.
artificer as a base class, readjusted to take into account the fact that there's an actually proper crafting system now. probably also a support martial instead of a support caster. i feel like a crafting class should be centered around making you good at crafting and at using the things you craft, not at simulating crafting and casting, and i like the idea of a support martial that isn't just bossing people around (though bossing people around is still fun).
10 minute short rests so that they actually have a purpose
better critfishing support, because haha natural 17 crit go brrrr
more interesting things for martials to do. level up as an example again, maneuvers are cool.
here's where things get real spicy - spellcasting like WOIN or similar systems where you essentially build and buy spells. maybe go a step further and have each caster interact with them differently - for example, cleric/druid/paladin/ranger get a list of pre-built spells they can prepare each day, sorcerers/warlocks can put together spells on the fly, (artificers, if they stay casters/)bards/wizards build their daily spells as part of their daily preparations. don't need that second part (honestly my example probably wasn't great since half the casters just don't build spells at all with it), but i just really like the idea of putting together spells i'm almost certain nobody else has (and then finding out a month later that, like, half the planet already knows). also, this would essentially replace metamagic.
classes that get a third extra attack, and fighters getting their last extra attack at level 17 instead of 20. it just annoys me that the former doesn't exist and the latter is how it is atm
up to 30th level. this has a big asterisk on it in that i'd be 100% ok with it being in a supplement instead of the core book, and actually think it might be more appropriate to do so. i just wanna throw a +19 attack modifier before magic items and buffs around at an overgod, ok?
half proficiency to nonproficient saves to help avoid late game scenarios where you just straight up can't save against something. converting saves to defenses ala 4e could be cool but isn't necessary.
probably the biggest one: BALANCE THE SAVES. INTELLIGENCE SAVES AGAINST 4 SPELLS IN THE PHB. *FOUR.* WHY DOES IT WORK LIKE THIS.
so yeah basically my perfect 5e will never happen. but seriously, they really should balance the saves, i wasn't kidding about that intelligence thing, look it up.
edit: also, tags to denote what are mundane, magical, supernatural, and spell(-like) abilities to help with traits like magical resistance.


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## Grantypants (Jul 11, 2022)

In short, I want to see the things in 5e that rarely come up and mostly don't matter be made either much more mechanically important or reduced entirely to fluff. Honestly, I'm not too bothered about which way those things go, whether they're beefed up or thrown out. 

For example: Alignment. You could cut what's left of it from the game entirely without missing much. OR. You could beef it up. Instead of being aligned with "Good" or "Chaos", characters are aligned with various factions in the world, a lot like 13th Age's icons. DMs can 

Or Spell Components. Irrelevant unless the PCs have their hands bound or are in a zone of Silence, etc. The PHB even says to handwave buying material components when shopping. Either take the limitation out or expand it. I like the Pathfinder route of making spells more effective if you can use more effort/actions/types of components. You might also add a lot more game rules that interact differently with spells depending on what components were used to cast them.

Same goes for weapon types, damage types, ability scores (as opposed to ability score bonuses), hit dice.

Plus bring back healing surges, the bloodied condition (and everything that responded to that), and minions/mooks.


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## UngeheuerLich (Jul 11, 2022)

Tiny balancing/rewording for multiclasses. (Absolutely don't do away with it, it is what makes character building really fun for me!)

Keep the feats/ASI balance, but maybe balance a little here and there.

Keep bounded accuracy but improve the range to +3 to +9. Basically times 1.5.
I am not sure how to implement expertise and half proficiency yet.

Balance some spells and incorporate tasha's guide options for classes.

Include artificer and update races.

Reorganize the DMG

Rebalance short and long rests by aiming for a much more realistic standard adventuring day and present other healing options right in the PHB.


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## Micah Sweet (Jul 11, 2022)

My perfect (more or less) update to 5e came out last year.  It's called Level Up.  I've spent most of my game time since then converting material.


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## Blue (Jul 11, 2022)

Okay, my truly perfect "50th Anniversary PHB" would be one that's just Tasha's style fixes rolled in with nothing removed so it's 100% fully compatible with everything I already bought.  But putting that aside...

Okay, this is one description of a 50th Aniversary D&D I would enjoy.  It's not the only one.  And I'm specifically try to keep it feeling like D&D.  If I don't describe something, default to a 5e-like position.  E.g. if I don't mention bounded accuracy, then it's still the same.

1.  Different multiclassing.  I quite like the 3.0 style multiclassing we have now, but it's a bit of a trap for new players where you can shoot yourself in the foot, and requires one thing I've grown from liking to strongly disliking - planning out a character.  So I'd like to return to AD&D style multiclassing where you picked your classes at the beginning, and were a bit of each even at 1st level.

2. Playing off that, we don't need so many variations of half-caster, half whatever.  Have patron warrior class.  Run it by itself and it's a cool class.  Multiclass it with cleric and it's closer to 5e paladin.  Multiclass it with warlock and it's a hexblade/blade pact.  Fewer overall classes because we have a nice way to meld them.

3. That also means we don't need to worry about cherry picking and can give real features at 1st level.

3b.  An offshoot of that, have official rules for starting at a higher level, with some knobs the DM can twist to match their style (high magic, gritty, etc.)

4. Since we're already looking at having classes that mutliclass nicely with others, have some classes that serve several thematics with common mechanics.  Have a pet class which could be a big beast for a ranger or druid, or a special mount, or a steel defender, or a dragonling, or a necromantic skeleton, or whatever.  These classes would be recommended to multiclass with other classes and not take as a single class.

5. Races/Heritage are big in terms of total power.  It will make a large impact on your character, including at higher levels.  Leaving design space for things like a tiny flying pixie, a large sized centaur or minotaur, a flying race, and other options where there's enough you are giving up not taking other races that it is balanced by those opportunity costs.

5b.  Including more feats for future growth down heritage routes.

6. Remove boring math adjustment magic items.  So no Plus X magic items, just ones that DO things.  Keep magic items out of the character advancement math.

7.  Remove boring math adjustments elsewhere.  Don't have a fighting style that gives +2 to hit in archery, have one that does interesting and active things with archery.

8.  Make fighting styles (two weapon, weapon and shield, weapon and free hand, two handed weapon, throw weapon, and ranged attacks) each have something that they are best at.  Preferably in a rock-paper-scissor way.

9.  Rebalance the classes so that they don't have different rates of resource attrition and differening lengths of adventuring days affect them very different.  This could be moving to more AED (leaving off the U for now) from 4e, or other methods.  And if length of adventuring day stays a big deal, give baked-in knobs for the DM to twist to match their style.

10.  Embrace upcasting - make every spell do this, and stay on target so that the spell you got at 1st could still be a signature spell casting at 5th level and it's not underpowered.  And if we are still doing 5e style spell slots (which we might not, with #9), have that the number of slots very slowly increases, but the level of the slot increases.  So a 2nd level pure caster might have four 1st level slots, and a 5th level pure caster might have only six slots but they are two each of 1st, 2nd and 3rd level.  And at 10th level the same caster have eight total, two each of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th level slots (and no 1st!) - remembering that those lower level spells known are scaling properly, not slowly, by level.

11.  Allow/require some spells to be learned with options.  Like "Elemental Ball" might be a 2nd level spell, and you must choose an element when you learn it.  Fire might do the most damage in the radius, while Thunderball would do good damage and toss people away and prone.  (And, since we're scaling, upcasting Fireball to 3rd level would do 8d6 fire damage, save for half.)

12. Have a lot more out-of-combat abilities, and if there are choices don't make they the same currency as combat abilities.  For instance, don't grant a feat and have the feat be for combat or non-combat.  Instead at times grant a combat feat and other times grant an out-of-combat feat.

13.  Keep background and make it more important, and add in culture much like background which carries things that in 5e are embedded in race.

14.  Move things away from spells.  This may happen as part of 9, but things like Hunter's Mark shouldn't be a spell.  Actually, Invocations like a warlock probably fit better for a ranger in the first place.  Which should be an option for classes.  So you have a hedge witch as a druid/invocation, or a warlock with a (warlock caster)/invocation, a ranger as a scout/invocation, etc.

EDIT:  There are threads about hiring an editor.  Guess I reached that length.  Fixed a bunch of word problems.

This is just off the top of my head, not sure it hands together.  And it's one vision among many.


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## ART! (Jul 11, 2022)

I'm not super-mechanically-minded, so here's my vague thoughts on things I'd like to see. I have no solutions per se.

- simplify the action economy, or make it easier to grok. I've seen too many eyes glaze over as I try to explain action, move, reactions, bonus actions, move as an action, and then all the "interact with object"-type options. Ugh.

- anything that can be done to make creating a new character easier for beginners.

- make rangers awesome.

- do something - anything - to make running a spellcaster easier for new players. I get the "new players should play simple classes first" advice, but I don't want to tell an excited player they can't play the cool wizard idea they have in their head.

- more rules variants in the DMG, so people can tailor things to their table more readily. "Don't want to kill off characters? Here's some death save alternatives!"


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## Sacrosanct (Jul 11, 2022)

Streamline the rules into their core essence, like getting rid of ability scores altogether and just going with modifiers.  
Make races more generic, but give the flexibility of traits tied to the background.

sort of like this:


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## Vaalingrade (Jul 11, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Bit to swingy.
> 
> I would make them have a higher crit range instead and the rapier wouldn't be the only 18-20 crit weapon.
> 
> Champion could crit on 15+ using the right weapon.



But in the true perfect edition, there are no Champion Fighters.


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## Zardnaar (Jul 12, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> But in the true perfect edition, there are no Champion Fighters.




Might not use that term might be keen for example. 

 But if I overhauled the 5E fighter a lot of the late game stuff would be groughy forward eg 4th attack level 15, 3rd attack level 10. More save proficiency etc.


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## EzekielRaiden (Jul 12, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> But in the true perfect edition, there are no Champion Fighters.



While I appreciate the scathing wit, there really should be a simple Fighter option. It just needs to be actually, y'know, _good_.

But IMO there should be simple versions of nearly every class (in an ideal world, _actually_ every class.) And complex versions too. Because "likes character archetype as a fictional concept" and "likes simplicity"/"likes complexity" are _completely orthogonal things_. There are people who want complex Fighters and simple Wizards. Supporting that should be a major goal.

Because there are a ton of people out there who would love to play Harry Potter, and find the D&D wizard...poorly supports this, to put it mildly. And there are folks who like both intricate/textured mechanics and swording things in the face. We've had inklings of both simple magic and complex martials in official D&D. It'd be great if that got a real serious, well-tested shot.


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## Horwath (Jul 12, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> But in the true perfect edition, there are no Champion Fighters.



Just have champions HD and Second wind turn into d12, and HP adjusted to that.


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## Stalker0 (Jul 12, 2022)

Start with 5e as now as your basic chassis:

Major rebalancing of Spells and Feats (I don't expect perfect balance but when people can look at a spell like Mordenkainen's sword and instantly notice its flat out worse than many spells below it....something needs to give).
Respect that fights are short, and therefore damage over time spells need to be balanced appropriately (aka much stronger than they are today).
A more 4e monster design approach
Bringing back skillpoints, probably using Pathfinder's 1e approach. I don't mind it simplier than 3e but there was a really fun customization there that 5e is lacking.
Split concentration into the "can't stack with other spells of this type" element and the "take damage and lose the spell" element. In trying to combine these two elements into one mechanic its too much of a crude club instead of a scalpel, and really reduces the variety of viable spellcasting in 5e. Concentration is both one of the greatest and worse changes in 5e.
Start looking at legendary/solo monsters reducing conditions instead of just outright killing them.
Balance around a 1-3 encounter adventuring day, rather than this 6-8 encounter bs.
Rework the monk, the sorc, and the cleric. The monk has problems, even if there are conceptual, but the million "monk sucks" threads out there should show you something is off. Sorcs don't quite fit their internal flavor, and clerics are insanely boring and de facto rely on spirit guardians to be worth a damn.
Add some more conditions that weaken defenses rather than actions.... aka conditions that create tension rather than making a character suck. Something like "you take 5 extra damage everytime you take damage" kind of thing. Or the ongoing damage from 4e.
Spend some extra rules space on classic "dungeoneering". Stealth as an example, I don't mind the natural language of 5e for many things but stealth is too powerful to be as vague as it....button that stuff up. There should be some chase rules, some notes about handling combats in a doorway (which is VERY common in some dungeon scenarios). How about a little more detail on standard illusions, give some more examples of when "interactions" would occur.
Drop the VSM components, its jenky and tedious. All spells should just be blockable with silence, by taking away the focus (except sorcs), or by binding the caster's hands. Spells that don't need this should have very special notes in the spell description rather than me needing to look up the VSM of every damn spell. And lastly, call out specially spells that are casual. End once and for all the debates as to whether you can cast charm person on a person and they won't know your casting it, or can I cast X spell in the dark and not break stealth because its effects are "subtle enough". I'm tired of the debates around that, literally just put a keyword on spells that are "subtle" and call it a day.
For the love of god throw in some ways to spend our money, proper magic item pricing is a good start.


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## Horwath (Jul 12, 2022)

Also we do not need categories of weapons and armor.

all weapons can be in one category and all can be proficient with all weapons.

Martial performance can be measured via:
Fighting styles, Extra attack(s), attack riders(sneak attack, smite, various class bonuses), abilities that enable usage of Bonus action for extra attack, feats that augment attacks(SS, HWM, PAM, CE, Sentinel, Crusher, Piercer, Slasher, etc), basic investment in STR or DEX,

Armor can be measured only in min STR required.
No need for class proficiencies, or capping dex or having Stealth or other penalties.

Armors:
AC 11, min STR 10
AC 12, min STR 12
AC 13, min STR 14
AC 14, min STR 16
AC 15, min STR 18
AC 16, min STR 20
AC 17, min STR 22

small shield(buckler), +1 AC, min STR 10
shield, +2 AC, min STR 14

Some races(dwarves) can have cultural armor training in a way that their STR is 2pts higher for calculating what armor you can use.
Same would be for some classes/subclasses:
I.E. fighter and paladins, and some subclasses of other classes can calculate their STR 2pts higher for armors.

Not having min STR for the armor you are using would inflict disadvantages on all attack rolls, not being able to concentrate on spells and having all targets of your spells auto-succeed on their saving throws and having disadvantage on all STR and DEX saves and checks.


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## Vaalingrade (Jul 12, 2022)

Horwath said:


> Just have champions HD and Second wind turn into d12, and HP adjusted to that.



So still nothing interesting and no reason to exist?

Sorry, no Champions enter the kingdom of good gaming.


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## Horwath (Jul 12, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> So still nothing interesting and no reason to exist?
> 
> Sorry, no Champions enter the kingdom of good gaming.



I agree that it is not nothing interesting in mechanics.

But the point of champion is to be very simple in mechanics(and in theory not underpowered).
To give starting players, and players that do not want too much mechanics in character a solid option to play.


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## Vaalingrade (Jul 12, 2022)

Horwath said:


> I agree that it is not nothing interesting in mechanics.
> 
> But the point of champion is to be very simple in mechanics(and in theory not underpowered).
> To give starting players, and players that do not want too much mechanics in character a solid option to play.



We need to start respecting new players in not thinking they are too dumb to operate Rage.


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## Horwath (Jul 12, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> We need to start respecting new players in not thinking they are too dumb to operate Rage.



I'm not saying that players are dumb, I'm for default feats and feat at 1st level.
But, there is a lot to learn to D&D as a new player.
Champion can get more abilities that are more "complicated" at later levels(6+).


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## Vaalingrade (Jul 12, 2022)

The page space is better spent on interesting classes if we're building the perfect edition.

Maybe with useful discussion and tips on playing and building characters instead of making bad 'starter' content.


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## Eubani (Jul 12, 2022)

1. Make equipment choice matter
2. When costing a limited resource such as feats make combat and non combat options be purchased with separate pools.
3. Add to non caster classes at the same rate through the edition as caster classes. eg Not book after book with spells but nothing for non casters.
4. Do not treat Fighter design like nerd revenge on jocks.
5. Tilt more to upcoming generations with design philosophy do not be held hostage by grognards.
6. For once and for all put spellcaster supremacy to bed.


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## Willie the Duck (Jul 12, 2022)

1. Organize the books (in particular the DMG) with an eye towards making it easier for new player, DMs, and groups as a whole to pick up the game, avoid pitfalls (particularly those that might make someone quit before they really experience the game as it will play out once they have learned the ropes), and get a foundational basis into modes of play the system supports. 
2. Include sidebars discussing the reasons for specific rules, what purposes they serve, and how they can be modified (including potentially otherwise unforeseen consequences of doing so) to achieve specific ends.
3. Include (and focus on) generalized task resolution -- physical, social, mental, combat, non-combat, long- and short-term. Give examples, but make clear that these should be extrapolated outside the set boundaries. Special focus on the things most often resolved in D&D with a spell cast, or actively boring when performed in current 5e (especially by those most likely to be engaged in such actions, such as someone playing a ranger with wilderness activity).


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## Greg K (Jul 14, 2022)

PHB
Coverer levels 1-10 or 1-12 with higher levels covered in a separate book
Races
add Tasha's race customization as a sidebar in the PHB
Decouple biologicall aspects of race from non-biological
Choose ace (or whatever they call it is one choice)
Choose an environment from Aquatic (underwater), Coast, Desert, Forest, Grasslands, Hills, Jungle/Rain Forest, Mountains, Tundra,  Wetlands, Underground
Chosse a culture: Hunter/Gatherer, Nomadic (foot), Nomadic (river), Horticulture, Agrarian, Urban*
Special: Mageocracy, Martial, Monarchy, Monastic, Theocracy, Street

Remove alignment from most races
rereintroduce 3e Night Vision and Dark Vision split

Classes
add class variants at first level: Martial Bard, Urban Barbarian, Cloistered Cleric, LIght Armor Fighter, Iron Body Monk, Urban Ranger, Wilderness Rogue.  These would have variant class features at first level (including modified skill list and save proficiencies) and possibly at some additional levels
Bararian
Replace Berserker exhaustion with a new  less serious fatigued or winded condition

Bard
Keep full caster
add a College of Cantor (divine), a folklore college (either Brother's Grimm or Disney Princess), College of Troubador (Roguish 1/2 caster), College of the Sea (Ariel, Sea Shanty Bard, etc.)
make College of Valor a half-caster

Cleric:
Move to  a Warlock chasis. So
At first level choose  between Monastic/Cloistered, Mendicant/Beggar, Itinnerant/circuit, Templar/Martial Priest  that determines armor and weapon proficiences instead of tying armor and weapons to domain.
Choose Domain or Deity

smaller shared Cleric base spell list: e.g., Bless, Bestow Cure, Remove Curse, communicating with deity (Augury, Divination), Planar Ally

Fighter:
add the new Fightting options  from Tasha's
more Fighter Subclasses
subclasses: Archer, Bodyguard, Brawler/ Pugilist, Commander/Strategist, Corsair/Pirate, Duelist/Fencer, Gallant, Gladiator, Hoplite, Horse Archer, Lancer, Kensei, Musketeer, Swashbuckler, Templar (Divine version of Eldritch Knight).
get tailored selection of Battlemaster type maneuvers + tailored subclass abilities



Monk
add some maneuvers choices to differentiate fighting styles
add more ki options and choices
somethings that require ki should not.
maybe introduce ki dice mechanic.

Ranger:
I would change the Ranger to a non mystical/ non-spell casting class similar to AgenderArcee's Martial Ranger with spellcasting Ranger as a subclass.

Rogue
add subclasses: Acrobatr, Charlatn/Swindler, Mastermind, Scout

Sorcerer:
add expanded spell lists for all Origins
add more Origins: Arcane Bloodline Fey Bloodline

Warlock
Fiend Patrons: Each Arch-Devil and Demon Prince as a patron
Fey Patrons: Titania, Oberon, etc as individual patrons
Great Old Ones:  Cthulu entities (Cthulhu, Hastur, etc.) as patrons.

Spellcasters:
Dial back full casters to be balanced with battlemaster fighter. I think it was Treantmonk and/or Dungeon Coach that mentioned the need to dial  back spellcaster power and I agree (I wanted this back when the Next playtest was announced).
Smaller shared base list for each base class

New Classes
Alchemist as its own class distinct from Artificer
Arcane Warrior: Arcane counterpart to Paladin and Ranger
Scholar: non-magical base class but may have a 1/2 caster subclass.
Shaman: on a warlock like chasis.
Warlord
Witch


No Prestige classes, Paragon Paths or Epic Destinies in base rules (can be options in DMG)
Feats:
Keep optional
Revise some feats

Equipment
add some armor and weapon properties to further differentiate

Combat
Critical Hits: the base damage die is maximum and bonus die from crit is rolled

Spells
Rebalance/ Revise various spells for balance

Conditions:
add some new conditions: e.g. Bleeding, Dazed, Fatigued, Shaken, Staggered, Swallowed,  Weakened Abilities, Winded  (or move these to DMs Guide as options to keep simple for beginners)


DMG
add a skill point variant in the DMG
add armor as DR variant, wound/vitality point, and glancing blow as variants in the DMG
touch ac, flat-footed
revised Death Save to eliminate wack a mole healing.
add expanded downtime rules from supplements
dials for resting
dials for exhaustion
dials for petrification
dials for Death Saves
add the sidekick rules
optional Travel mechanics
actual guidelines for running low magic and low fantasy: Class/subclass selections,  spells to include/exclude, and other options


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