# Is celerity broken?



## Zephiel7 (Jun 16, 2007)

I just managed to get a copy of PHBII through alternative means and I noticed that the 4th level celerity spell allows the mage to get an additional standard action. For a level 20 mage, this gets unbelievably broken.  If the mage were to put this spell in a contingency and states for it to activate whenever someone does anything hostile to him, then he automatically gets the first initiative. There goes any point to taking the improved initiative line of feats. 

If the mage subsequently uses timestop, then he has enough time to screw someone over via damage over time spells, (like cloudkill) cage him, and then dimension door somewhere else until he can recover. So the question is, should the conditions in the contingency spell be considered valid (since celerity itself is an immediate action and cannot be used until the second round of combat when everyone is not flat footed)? Or should celerity even be able to be put in a contingency?


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## Darklone (Jun 16, 2007)

High level combat: Wizard casts Timestop, battle is over. Sometimes 

It's as broken as 3.0 Haste was ... and not so bad as Haste used to be. And still the game worked.


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## Geoff Watson (Jun 17, 2007)

_Celerity _ has a disadvantage that the caster is dazed for a round afterwards.

Allowing _celerity_ along with something that makes the caster immune to being dazed would be badly overpowered though.

Geoff.


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## Zephiel7 (Jun 17, 2007)

Geoff Watson said:
			
		

> _Celerity _ has a disadvantage that the caster is dazed for a round afterwards.
> 
> Allowing _celerity_ along with something that makes the caster immune to being dazed would be badly overpowered though.
> 
> Geoff.




True, but as I showed, the celerity+contigency automatically allows him to cast timestop. That means he can cast all the spells he needs in the first round and then teleport away to safety while waiting the daze off.

I showed my DM this and he said that since celerity only activates when the wizard is not flat footed, which is the case in the first round of combat, it can't work with contingency in the case I presented since in the first round of combat the wizard is flat footed. I just agreed .


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## Mouseferatu (Jun 17, 2007)

Some months back, I played in a campaign alongside another player who frequently used _celerity_. So I had frequent opportunity to see it used.

It's not broken. But it's annoying as all Hell.

It might be better in a smaller group, but in a group of 6 people, there's nothing more annoying for five of the players than for the sixth to get two actions in one round while the rest of us sit around waiting. True, he's dazed, which means that he doesn't get to go the following round--but seeing as how that extra spell per round can go a long ways toward ending combat, it means that fights ended sooner, and therefore that he got double rounds more often than he got off rounds.

I've banned _celerity_ from my campaigns, not for balance reasons, but because everyone in my group (except that one player) finds the spell detrimental to the fun of all concerned.


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## Sejs (Jun 17, 2007)

At level 20 a wizard is broken with or without Celerity, simply by virtue of the other point you mentioned - Time Stop.

Decent Dex, Improved Initiative, and Nerveskitter?  Golly, you mean I go first?  

Well... guess I'll just have to cast Time Stop and win, I suppose.


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## Jack Simth (Jun 17, 2007)

Well...

In and of itself, it's on the high side of power for it's level, but not brokenly so.

If combined with something that voids Daze, it becomes a pre-quicken (as it eats up your Swift action in the next round) that can be applied to any spell with no spell level adjustment.  This puts it at seriously overpowered - one extra spell in round one, on par with a Metamagic Rod of Quicken Spell capable of doing the highest level spell you can cast in rounds 2+, and for a lot less of an investment in permanent recources.  

If combined with something that operates independantly of initiative - such as Contingency - it approaches an "I go first" button - and at 12th (where this first works), going first gives you very good odds in a battle.  Another power increment, this one pretty sizeable.

When combined with Foresight (which makes you never flat-footed for the duration) it becomes an "I go first" button.  And at 17th, where this first becomes possible, going first puts your odds of winning at around 80% or so.  

When combined with Foresight and Time Stop.... umm... what opponent?

It's not that it's a broken spell in and of itself....


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## Zephiel7 (Jun 17, 2007)

Sejs said:
			
		

> At level 20 a wizard is broken with or without Celerity, simply by virtue of the other point you mentioned - Time Stop. Decent Dex, Improved Initiative, and Nerveskitter?  Golly, you mean I go first?




There are plenty of classes that require a higher dex and can also obtain all the said feats. For example, the swordsage gets +5 iniative as a class feature, and actually requires a moderately high dex in order to max out AC. The wizard isn't invaribaly going first, and hence time stop isn't really that bad, IMHO. 

The problem is when celerity is combined with contingency. That pretty much gives  a 20th level wizard the ability to "contingency" a timestop spell. Of course, if the said class being assaulted had immunity to poisons, dominations and whatnot through equipment, the wizard is limited in what type of spells he can cast to weaken the opponent- but that still does not eliminate the fact that the wizard goes first, nullifying the advantage of "quick" characters (ie, the sneaky rogue, assassin, monk, or the swordsage). 

Silly PHBII trying to make fighters stronger - all they succeeded in doing is make the wizard stronger .


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## Jack Simth (Jun 17, 2007)

Zephiel7 said:
			
		

> The problem is when celerity is combined with contingency. That pretty much gives  a 20th level wizard the ability to "contingency" a timestop spell. Of course, if the said class being assaulted had immunity to poisons, dominations and whatnot through equipment, the wizard is limited in what type of spells he can cast to weaken the opponent- but that still does not eliminate the fact that the wizard goes first, nullifying the advantage of "quick" characters (ie, the sneaky rogue, assassin, monk, or the swordsage).



You can Contingency a Celerity at 12th level.  11th, if you have an Orange Prism Ioun Stone (for the +1 caster level); basically as soon as you have Contingency.  Sufficiently well-worded (and by that, I mean a wording that makes the DM think it works that way) the Wizard goes first with the combo.  At any level, going first gives you a serious advantage.  Normally, who goes first is random (although weighted) by the roll of the dice, and weighting initiative is pricy in terms of stats and feats.  

Then the Contingent Celerity comes along at 11th/12th, and suddenly you go first in the next combat at the cost of two spell slots (one 4th, one 6th) and a slightly expensive focus, with no roll, regardless of how much someone else invested in going first.


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## Zephiel7 (Jun 17, 2007)

> Then the Contingent Celerity comes along at 11th/12th, and suddenly you go first in the next combat at the cost of two spell slots (one 4th, one 6th) and a slightly expensive focus, with no roll, regardless of how much someone else invested in going first.




Wherein lies the problem. If a character decides to invest signficantly in going first by choosing the proper class and line of feats, he should be given the priviledge of getting the first blow in, so to speak. That's what makes this spell broken - a character with a penalty to initiative can go before a person with a +11 bonus or more.


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## Maldor (Jun 17, 2007)

i would say a a 6th level speel would be able to give you a +20 on initiative so your combo is basic just over complacating things.

but thanks for pointing out that if your immune to stun it has no adverse effect the spell might be worth lreaning now for my undead necromancer got to check if there immune to stun frist though


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## Sejs (Jun 17, 2007)

Zephiel7 said:
			
		

> There are plenty of classes that require a higher dex and can also obtain all the said feats. For example, the swordsage gets +5 iniative as a class feature, and actually requires a moderately high dex in order to max out AC. The wizard isn't invaribaly going first, and hence time stop isn't really that bad, IMHO.




All that says is that someone -might- go first. 

But unless that someone who can keep pace is able to take out the aformentioned wizard with their one action.. Time Stop kicks in we're back to square one.

Someone potentially being able to keep up with the wizard's init doesn't change the fact of once they get to go, the fight's still practically over.


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## Mouseferatu (Jun 19, 2007)

Maldor said:
			
		

> but thanks for pointing out that if your immune to stun it has no adverse effect the spell might be worth lreaning now for my undead necromancer got to check if there immune to stun frist though




"Dazed," not "stunned."

Being immuned to daze is much rarer and harder to obtain.

(And for the record, every DM I've ever played with who hasn't banned _celerity_ outright has ruled that _nothing_ trumps the dazed effect of the spell. Even if you're normally immune, this spell is an exception. Otherwise it _is_ broken, plain and simple.)


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## Piratecat (Jun 19, 2007)

As a DM for a 23rd lvl party, I'll mention here that we have no issues with time stop. For us it has been neither overpowered or a game-breaker against like-powered foes.

But I still wouldn't allow celerity.


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## Kahuna Burger (Jun 19, 2007)

Zephiel7 said:
			
		

> I just managed to get a copy of PHBII through alternative means



What does this mean? Just curious as its an odd phrasing.


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## Plane Sailing (Jun 19, 2007)

Sejs said:
			
		

> Well... guess I'll just have to cast Time Stop and win, I suppose.




How does casting Time Stop become an automatic win, I wonder?

You can summon beasties (but they still have to start the fight once the timestop ends)
You can do forcecages to trap opponents along with something nasty like cloudkill (unless they are immune to poison/too big to fit in a forcecage/can teleport themselves).

I can see Timestop as being incredibly useful for some quick self-buffing and summoning of (relatively weak) allies - but an encounter finisher...? Against EL appropriate encounters? 

How?


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## brendan candries (Jun 19, 2007)

How do you guys see celerity in combination with ready an action - counterspell to disrupt enemy spellcasters? 

Is this possible even?

E.g.

Enemy starts to cast a spell.
Spellcraft identifies it as a Fireball.
Cast Celerity --> Ready an Action, Counterspell. Cast Fireball to counter the Enemy's Fireball.


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## stonegod (Jun 19, 2007)

How many quickened or empowered Delayed Blast Fireballs can you get out during Time Stop? Read the ending of JollyDoc's Age of Worms to see the carnage Time Stop can do.


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## Darklone (Jun 19, 2007)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> How does casting Time Stop become an automatic win, I wonder?
> ...



You're right, it's not... since I think you can't disintegrate the floor below an opponent anymore and cast a Prismatic wall under him... 

Yet as self-buff as you mentioned it's deadly, depending on your group. If you have 6 archers and one buffer who casts Timestop to get all his archer buffs off... the enemies are dead after the first salvo.


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## wildstarsreach (Jun 19, 2007)

Jack Simth said:
			
		

> Well...
> 
> In and of itself, it's on the high side of power for it's level, but not brokenly so.
> 
> ...




And people talk about Psionics always being broken and here yet again is magic.  It is as broken if not more so than psionics.


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## SadisticFishing (Jun 19, 2007)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> How?




Celerity!

Time Stop. Dimension Anchor. Force Cage.

The fight is over, especially if there is no time limit - you can prepare each spell once a day, and they last longer than that, so just take your time and wear them away. Cloudkill is probably the way to go, though.


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## Destil (Jun 19, 2007)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> How does casting Time Stop become an automatic win, I wonder?
> 
> You can summon beasties (but they still have to start the fight once the timestop ends)
> You can do forcecages to trap opponents along with something nasty like cloudkill (unless they are immune to poison/too big to fit in a forcecage/can teleport themselves).
> ...





			
				stonegod said:
			
		

> How many quickened or empowered Delayed Blast Fireballs can you get out during Time Stop? Read the ending of JollyDoc's Age of Worms to see the carnage Time Stop can do.



This is why, Plane. Most people either:
1) Ignore or don't realize that the caster of time stop, as a random duration spell, doesn't know the spell's duration (and therefore let it work with delayed blast fireball and delay spell). Or find some way to maximize it (yeah, yeah "bla bla bla maximize rod". Broken item, not a broken spell).
2) Have a DM who interprets the rules that the delay doesn't tick down during the timestop, so a DBF with a delay of '0' rounds will go off as soon as you re-enter the timestream.
#2 I'll at least buy (as in I wouldn't argue during a game if my DM were to allow it). #1 I would immediately point out if it came up in a game where I was playing, regardless of who it benefited.


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## cthulhudarren (Jun 19, 2007)

Simply apply SR to Time Stop. Or use the variants from the Epic Level Handbook. Our group has basically been playing such that when this spell is cast, if the enemies' SR is not beaten, then they're time stopped right along with the Time Stop caster. This can have very bad consequences.


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## Plane Sailing (Jun 19, 2007)

SadisticFishing said:
			
		

> Celerity!
> 
> Time Stop. Dimension Anchor. Force Cage.
> 
> The fight is over, especially if there is no time limit - you can prepare each spell once a day, and they last longer than that, so just take your time and wear them away. Cloudkill is probably the way to go, though.




Dimensional anchor won't work on someone during timestop since it is a targetted spell:



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; *you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell*. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends.




Also, the target might be too big to fit inside a force cage (or there are more than one target and you can't get them all in, or they have disintegrate available or they are so large you had to use the barred cage they can cast their magic right back out at you...)

There might be a small number of combats where timestop + cloudkill + unbarred cage will be a fight ender... but I would bet it is a really tiny number ( a quick glance down the CR 17 challenges in the MM shows very few opponents that would be beaten by this technique for one or more of the reasons above.

Cheers


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## The Blow Leprechaun (Jun 19, 2007)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> There might be a small number of combats where timestop + cloudkill + unbarred cage will be a fight ender... but I would bet it is a really tiny number ( a quick glance down the CR 17 challenges in the MM shows very few opponents that would be beaten by this technique for one or more of the reasons above.



Could someone explain to me why "invulnerable to your spells" wouldn't apply to Cloudkill? From the description of Time Stop, it's something of a misnomered spell - time doesn't really stop, you speed up. So seems to me, you'd cast your Cloudkill, but it wouldn't _do_ anything until Time Stop... stopped.


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## stonegod (Jun 19, 2007)

The Blow Leprechaun said:
			
		

> Could someone explain to me why "invulnerable to your spells" wouldn't apply to Cloudkill? From the description of Time Stop, it's something of a misnomered spell - time doesn't really stop, you speed up. So seems to me, you'd cast your Cloudkill, but it wouldn't _do_ anything until Time Stop... stopped.



Its the cloudkill + forcecage combo---they start taking damage but cannot escape assuming they have no other means to do so.


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## SadisticFishing (Jun 19, 2007)

Sorry, I meant Dimension Lock, I often mix the two up.


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## Piratecat (Jun 19, 2007)

stonegod said:
			
		

> How many quickened or empowered Delayed Blast Fireballs can you get out during Time Stop? Read the ending of JollyDoc's Age of Worms to see the carnage Time Stop can do.



Sure, but the duration of time stop is variable. Good luck getting those DBFs to all explode at the right time. One round to early or two late, and they're all wasted.

I agree that dimension lock + forcecage + cloudkill just isn't that deadly to a party of high level foes. The only "sure win" I've seen is time stop + fly + reverse gravity + prismatic sphere. In this case, the timestop ends and the victim shoots upwards right into a prismatic sphere. If he isn't flying he's possibly screwed... and if the GM is vicious, the prismatic sphere blocks the reverse gravity, so the victim ping-pongs back and forth through the spell effect.  Ouch.


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## Nail (Jun 20, 2007)

So _Celerity _ is borken 'cause of......_Timestop_?   Because of _Contingency_?  Both?  Neither?

Let's pin this down a bit more.


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## ThirdWizard (Jun 20, 2007)

I say _celerity_ is broken because most of the time the caster won't suffer the penalty because the combat will be over.


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## Jack Simth (Jun 21, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> So _Celerity _ is borken 'cause of......_Timestop_?   Because of _Contingency_?  Both?  Neither?
> 
> Let's pin this down a bit more.



It's really powerful due to the value of actions.

With it and Quicken Spell, it lets you get off two of your highest level spells on your first action (regardless of what level they are) and a spell four levels lower than your highest level spell off at the same time.

Suppose we ignore Contingency, Time Stop, and Foresight, and try this with a 16th level Wizard who is expecting a single fight today.  This Wizard has Quicken Spell, two 8th level spell slots (no bonus slots that high, sorry), and a bunch of 7th and lower spell slots.  Other than Celerity, this Wizard is going pure core.

He prepares, oh, a Quickened Wall of Fire (4th+4=8th), Dimension Lock (8th), and Forcecage (7th) (and, of course, Celerity, 4th).

When his turn pops up (assuming he gets one - and Dex is a reasonably high priority for Wizards due to the "no armor" thing; Improved Initiative is good for anyone), he makes his move.  

He casts a short Wall of Fire next to his subject (does not need to reduce caster level, due to the wording of the effect), focused towards the subject, with a Rod of Extend Spell.  He then Dimension Locks the area (so there's no escape), and ends his turn.  Before anyone else can do anything, though, he Immediately casts Celerity, and uses the standard action to put a Force Cage over everything (wall of Fire just inside the cage, Windowless Cell).  Wizard is now done, but that's okay, his subject is taking 2d4 Fire damage a round for the next 32 rounds (34, with an Orange Prism Ioun Stone), for an average of 160 damage.  Counters: SR (two possible checks - the Wall of Fire or the Dimension Lock if the subject can teleport, only need to beat one of them), a magic-destroying effect (Disintegrate the Forcecage, Dispel the Wall, Dispel the Dimension Lock and Teleport, or Disjoin everything), fire resistance (but you're still stuck for the next 32 hours or so), Fast Healing, lots of HP, lots of healing, or a handful of other things.  If the subject doesn't have at least one of those things, the subject is dead.  Normally, it takes Time Stop (or multiple casters) to pull that off.

That's just an example, though.  At 10th, it means a second Baelful Polymorph on the same target if the first failed.  Or an extra Feeblemind.  Or an extra Dismissal.  Or Cloudkill.  Or a Teleport to retreat.  Consider:

Sorcerer-10 with Invisibility, Dimension Door, Celerity, and Baelful Polymorph.

Sorcerer casts Invisibility, finds subject, and casts Baelful Polymorph.  If subject fails, subject might as well be dead.  If subject succeeds save, Celerity and Dimension Door retreat; soak the Daze while away.  With a Charisma of 18 or higher, he can pull it off three times per day (two 4th level spells and one 5th level spell per attempt, assuming it doesn't work).  Unless you have some way to detect Invisible things, he'll always get a surprise round (can't see him) and thus won't be flat-footed.  Many DM's don't let you ready actions outside of combat (although though they'll start allowing it - for opponents - if you actually use this strategy).  You can't go before he's gone, succeed or fail on your save.  If he gets a Wand of Dimension Door, and has a Charisma of 20 or better, that goes up to four times per day.  If he instead uses a Wand of Enervation (take 1d4 negative levels, no save, while you're flat-footed and taking a penalty to AC) to strike and a Wand of Dimension Door, he can do this up to about six times per day (at 10th), and can arrange to do this up to about four times per day at 8th (on getting Celerity, assuming the Sorcerer can purchase the wands).  Granted, he'll need to hit the same target repeatedly, but how many hits of 1d4 negative levels can you take at 8th?

Okay, it's broken even without those other spells, I think.


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