# How do people afford to live?



## RangerWickett (Jun 26, 2005)

This article says that in the Northeast, to live a good life with high quality stuff (basically, to be a Yuppie), your family of four needs to make at least $211,000 a year. 

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/forbes/P121206.asp?GT1=6584

Now sure, I just graduated from college last year with an English degree, so it's not like I expect to be rich yet, and sure, the article is from Forbes so it might carry an air of unnecessarily high conceptions of wealth, but even the best jobs I'm seeing that someone with an undergraduate degree could get are around $40,000 a year. Me, I'm working 20 hours a week and will likely get about $12,000 a year, plus however much I make from E.N. Publishing and other writing work.

I'm guessing that both parents work, so that means $105,500 a year per parent. Or, if we say a 40 hour work week and 52 weeks a year, that's $50 an hour.

What I want to know is, where can I find a job like that?  *grin*


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## Teflon Billy (Jun 26, 2005)

I don't have the faintest idea.


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## Treebore (Jun 26, 2005)

According to job statistics, very few jobs are in that pay range. Besides, taxes probably take that down to $130,000.00 of actual spending money. Then paying into 401K's and health insurance, car insurance, and house insurance probably knocks that down to $100,000.00.

Then their mortgage and two car payments probably eat up another $36,000.00 per year. Still, a fair amount of money to have fun with left over.


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## IamTheTest (Jun 26, 2005)

Well, look at the lifestyle in question.  Do I need two brand new Lexus's, a boat, and swimming pool?  Nah.  Id live just fine with a 3 bedroom, 2 bathroom home in a nice neighborhood and that certainly wouldnt cost 200k.


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## trancejeremy (Jun 26, 2005)

I think this article goes well beyond being a yuppie though.  Not many yuppies have 2 brand new luxury cars, a house worth nearly a million bucks and another vacation house worth even more....

They also are apparently paying college tuition out of their pocket...and private school for their other kid.

And of course, there is not listing for "Latte" or Starbucks, so they clearly aren't yuppies.


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## Turanil (Jun 26, 2005)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> What I want to know is, where can I find a job like that?  *grin*



You can't of course, but nothing is lost: at least your D&D characters will probably kill dragons and get tons of gold!


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## Angel Tarragon (Jun 26, 2005)

Thankfully, through Social Security Disability checks that are direct deposited into my joint account with my parents. It covers my food, utilities (my share of the water and cable bill) and rent. Yes rent. Though I do live with my parents, they require a large portion of the money I get every month just to let me live with them. And on top of this I have to _*earn*_ part of it, by doing chores for my parents. Sigh.

Thankfully, they (my parents) will be footing my entrance fee into college next year, in full, that is if I don't join the Army first.


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## IronWolf (Jun 26, 2005)

Yeah, I think this article goes beyond what one might consider a typical "yuppie" lifestyle.  It is my belief you really don't need *that* much money to be happy.  Just try not to fall victim to the keeping up with the neighbor game and you can be just fine (and this doesn't mean you can't drive a newer model car, live in a decent sized house, etc.).


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## Mystery Man (Jun 26, 2005)

The things you own end up owning you.


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## Bront (Jun 26, 2005)

IamTheTest said:
			
		

> Well, look at the lifestyle in question.  Do I need two brand new Lexus's, a boat, and swimming pool?  Nah.  Id live just fine with a 3 bedroom, 2 bathroom home in a nice neighborhood and that certainly wouldnt cost 200k.



Realy depends on where you live.  I know in several states a 2 bed/1 bath 1100 square foot home can go for almost $400,000.  I do know in my area, you're lucky to find a house that size (3 Bed, 2 bath) for $250,000, and even then you're talking no basement, and probably under 1800 square feet.   Housing is expensive, and has gone up a lot (15%+ in 2 years in the case of my home, and I'm in one of the lower priced neighborhoods that I'd still feel comfortable living in.).


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## Aeson (Jun 26, 2005)

Don't sweat it dude. As long as your happy it doesn't matter how much money you make. Money doesn't make people happy its how they use the time they have that makes them happy.


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## zoroaster100 (Jun 26, 2005)

While I think there's nothing wrong with trying to get paid as much as you can doing honest work you enjoy, I agree that it's more important to find out how to live comfortably and securely with the money at your disposal.  You should try to find the best paying job you can enjoy or trying to get a raise in your current job, but making more money often just means you quickly upgrade a few things like house and car and before you know it you feel just like when you had the less expensive house/car/stuff except now if you want to take a lower paying job that you would enjoy more, now you feel you can't because you can't afford the things you've grown accustomed to which before would have seemed like unnecessary luxury.


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## Pbartender (Jun 26, 2005)

IamTheTest said:
			
		

> Id live just fine with a 3 bedroom, 2 bathroom home in a nice neighborhood and that certainly wouldnt cost 200k.




You probably don't live within 100 miles of Chicago, do you?

We rent a small 70 year-old, 2 bedroom, 1 bathroom house in a nice neighborhood about 40 miles west of Chicago.  Four years ago, it was appraised at about $190,000.


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## Bloodstone Press (Jun 26, 2005)

The last time I checked, the poverty line in America was an average of about $19,000 a year. Over the past few years I've been well above that line a few times, and well below it a few times. I can tell you that that makes all the difference. The difference between making $20,000/year and $25,000/year is astounding. Its the difference between just getting by, and having plenty of extra money. Right now, I'm hitting just about $21,000/year, thanks to the added money I get from publishing. If I had to rely on my day job for my only means of support I couldn't do it. That's part of the reason I always encourage people to start a small business. Its a great way to supplement your income. And who knows, if your small business does well, you might be able to quite your day job and run yor business full time. 

 I'd suggest reading the Millionaire Next Door. Its got a lot of information on how to become wealthy on even a small income. The main key is to live below your means (which is hard to do if you make less than $19,000/year). Buy only what you need. Never pay full price. Invest. 

  The Millionaire Next Door has case studies in it about people making over $600,000/year, and they can't make ends meet because they spend theri money faster than they make it. The trick is to make as much as possible and spend as little as possible. It seems simple, but millions of people can't do it.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jun 26, 2005)

I live in the aforementioned Northeast, about 20 miles north of Boston.  As mentioned by other posters, if you want to live as an "affluent" person like in the article, yep, you need to make that kind of money.  But the reality is that most people do not own a 4000 sq. foot home, own two luxury cars, a summer home, eat out at fine restaurants each week, send their kids to private school etc. etc. 

It is by no means cheap to live around these parts, especially if you want to own a single family home in the suburbs, but it can be done.  My wife is a teacher and I work for a major pharma company.  We have a single family home ( 3 BR about 1600 sq. ft.) in a decent neighborhood, two kids (both in daycare, the largest expense, even more than the mortgage), and two cars.  We don't eat out or go out very often - we have two kids.  We don't own a summer home.  We do OK, although we do have to be careful about what we spend.  If one of us was to not work we would have to tighten our belts even more and we might not be able to maintain the current house.


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## the Jester (Jun 26, 2005)

IamTheTest said:
			
		

> Well, look at the lifestyle in question.  Do I need two brand new Lexus's, a boat, and swimming pool?  Nah.  Id live just fine with a 3 bedroom, 2 bathroom home in a nice neighborhood and that certainly wouldnt cost 200k.




It would where I live. :\


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## Cutter XXIII (Jun 26, 2005)

What a surprise: msn.com claims you need to make over 200K a year to lead a "good, high-quality" life.

That's quite a larf.


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## drothgery (Jun 26, 2005)

IamTheTest said:
			
		

> Id live just fine with a 3 bedroom, 2 bathroom home in a nice neighborhood and that certainly wouldnt cost 200k.




In Dayton, it wouldn't. In San Diego, a 3 bedroom/2 bath home in a nice neighborhood would be difficult to find for $500,000 (or, why I still live in a one-bedroom apartment even though I could easily afford the 4-bedroom houses in Ohio, Wisconsin, or upstate New York that I grew up in).


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## philreed (Jun 26, 2005)

This is why my long-term plan includes moving to western North Dakota. Inexpensive, secluded, and the perfect place for hermit-types like me. I'd much rather structure my life around living 50-100 miles from a city than being in the middle of a city. If I had my way I wouldn't leave my place more than once a month.


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## Nellisir (Jun 26, 2005)

Yeah, one of the biggest expenses there has got to be the vacation house.  I'm in the homebuilding industry (as a homebuilder, not a roofer or plumber), and real estate in the northeast is nuts right now -- particularly north of Boston.  I bought my home 5 years ago for $75,000 -- today I could probably sell if for $225,000 or $250,000.  The upper-end market has slowed quite a bit in my area, but lower-priced homes are still incredibly in demand.

Cheers
Nell.


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## drothgery (Jun 26, 2005)

Nellisir said:
			
		

> Yeah, one of the biggest expenses there has got to be the vacation house.




That was the strangest thing on their list, IMO. A vacation home that costs *more* than the home they actually live in? If you're going to have a vacation home at all, I'd think it can be pretty much anywhere (because the cost of plane tickets and car rental are trivial compared to the cost of a house at even a third of the cost that their example family paid) and since you're not keeping all your stuff there, it can be somewhat smaller.


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## Steve Jung (Jun 26, 2005)

IamTheTest said:
			
		

> Well, look at the lifestyle in question.  Do I need two brand new Lexus's, a boat, and swimming pool?  Nah.  Id live just fine with a 3 bedroom, 2 bathroom home in a nice neighborhood and that certainly wouldnt cost 200k.



Not in central New Jersey. My 1 bedroom, 1 bath condo costs $150K.


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## der_kluge (Jun 26, 2005)

Mystery Man said:
			
		

> The things you own end up owning you.




If I learned anything from playing "The SIMS" this is it.


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## Nellisir (Jun 26, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> That was the strangest thing on their list, IMO. A vacation home that costs *more* than the home they actually live in? If you're going to have a vacation home at all, I'd think it can be pretty much anywhere (because the cost of plane tickets and car rental are trivial compared to the cost of a house at even a third of the cost that their example family paid) and since you're not keeping all your stuff there, it can be somewhat smaller.




But vacation homes are at vacation destinations, and real estate costs at a destination, near attractions, are generally high.  At home, you want a good school district, reasonable taxes, and a moderate commute.  With a vacation home you want room for entertaining, a 5-minute commute, and toys.

Lake houses are very popular around here.

Cheers
Nell.


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## BlackSilver (Jun 26, 2005)

I come from a fairly rich family.  Raised traveling the world, had a couple of maids, promised a car when I got to be sixteen, credit card at twelve, and all that you could ever want.

When I left home, I left all of it behind.  I lived on the streets, with friends and such, until I could get my feet under me, get a job, my HS diploma, and finally a place to live.  Why did I do it?  Happiness.  I hated who I had to pretend to be to live with the money- it was not worth it to me.

Eight- almost nine years later, I have an apartment of my own, have a car (no more public transportation   ), and a fairly good job.  Education is important to me- always has been.  Thankfully I have money enough to pay my bills, have a movie ticket and things like that once in a while is what I want and need.

If you think you need money to be happy (in my experience) it’s not worth the trouble.  I could call my family now and denounce who I truly am and be living high on the hog, but I would be terribly unhappy.

If its money you want then go to school, talk to the unemployment department and find out what you need to do to get into a higher paying job.  Speak to the counselors at the JC nearest to you.  Find something you like to do and figure out how to make money at it.  Most of all- be true to yourself, and happy with who you are, it is so much more important then millions of dollars.


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## MonsterMash (Jun 26, 2005)

Steve Jung said:
			
		

> Not in central New Jersey. My 1 bedroom, 1 bath condo costs $150K.



Similar to London, except that's definitely the low end of the range for a flat/appartment in London. 

It really is true that as long as you can live within your income, without having to completely economise (i.e take a vacation each year, buy your books/games, go to the movies or buy/rent DVDs) you can enjoy life, as its your friends and family that you really get your happiness from.


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## Nifft (Jun 26, 2005)

I live in Manhattan. A 1-bedroom costs over $200k. 

Anyway... you can find a job like that in:
- Banking
- Law
- Medicine (probably by being a specialist)
- Business
- Consulting
- Being a Rap Star

 -- N


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## JoeGKushner (Jun 26, 2005)

I know a lot of people who share apartments and have two or three people living in one place. It's worse for some familaies, as opposed to friends, as they have no problem living in the living room or dining room and making it another bedroom.

And Chicago is very expensive in many areas. Some of the highest gas, transportation car cost, rent, and the housing is raising at an incredible pace. My friends joke that Daily is trying to turn this into a Millionarie's city.


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## JRRNeiklot (Jun 26, 2005)

That's crazy.  I grew up in a family of seven.  My mom didn't work, and my dad never made $30,000 a year.  We weren't rich, but we could afford to eat out if we wanted, go to a movie once in a while, etc.  I had a shotgun when I was 6, a computer when I was 12, a car when I turned 16.  Yeah, it was 7 years old, but it ran.  It does not cost that much to have a decent lifestyle.  I make less than my dad did, own my own home and 2 cars.  Of course, I don't have a wife to suck the life out of me or my wallet either.....


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 26, 2005)

Turanil said:
			
		

> You can't of course, but nothing is lost: at least your D&D characters will probably kill dragons and get tons of gold!




Ain't that the truth! I had an epic character who ran around with a cool mil in her "pocket" and many mil in value for the armor she wore and the blade she wielded.... Never mind the keep she and her friends stayed in when they weren't out adventuring....


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 26, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Thankfully, through Social Security Disability checks that are direct deposited into my joint account with my parents. It covers my food, utilities (my share of the water and cable bill) and rent. Yes rent. Though I do live with my parents, they require a large portion of the money I get every month just to let me live with them. And on top of this I have to _*earn*_ part of it, by doing chores for my parents. Sigh.
> 
> Thankfully, they (my parents) will be footing my entrance fee into college next year, in full, that is if I don't join the Army first.




Ok. If you're on disability, then how could you join the Army?

And you could always move out into section 8 housing... and probably pay less than what you pay the parents... Them payin' the entrance fee to college is nice...


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## der_kluge (Jun 27, 2005)

I make good money, but it seems like it's never enough, I can understand the feeling. But then, my wife has certain expectations about our lifestyle. So, for me, it's about maintaining that lifestyle.

I think with money there's a diminishing return on investment. Since, as you make more, you buy a bigger a house, a nicer car, more "stuff". There's always new tires that need to be bought, or grass seed for the yard, or whatever. It's endless, really. I think there's a lot to be said for a minimalist lifestyle. I don't think a family could live nowadays on what families lived on when we were kids. Things simply cost more money nowadays. But people have higher expectations as well. My house was twice as big as my parents house that I grew up in. I could never convince my wife that a 1500 sq. foot was big enough for her.

So, I think the morale of this story is that women are the root of all evil, and if you want to retire wealthy, never marry.


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## RangerWickett (Jun 27, 2005)

*Algebra is fun.*

A thesis.

Women take time and money.  (women = time * money)

Time is money.  (time = money)

Therefore women take money and money. (women = money^2)

Money is the root of all evil. (money = squareroot of evil; if we square both sides of the equation, we get: money ^2 = evil)

Therefore women are evil. (women = evil)


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## Angel Tarragon (Jun 27, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Ok. If you're on disability, then how could you join the Army?



I don't have a physical or any major mental disabilities. I do have Mosaic Downsyndrome, whch allows me to collect SSD, but doesn't forbid me from joining a branch of military service.



			
				Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> And you could always move out into section 8 housing... and probably pay less than what you pay the parents...



What is section 8 housing? 



			
				Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Them payin' the entrance fee to college is nice...



Yeah, especially being that I tried college before and ended up getting a 'W' in most classes. So, being that I have found my pace and am determined to not throw my life away, they are being quite generous.


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## der_kluge (Jun 27, 2005)

An addendum to my previous post:  I love my wife, I love her a lot. Yea, women are really expensive, but I wouldn't want to live life without her. So, it's worth it.

I have a daughter, too. So, she'll grow up to be really expensive. And according to our last sonogram, we're having a second daughter (contrary to an earlier sonogram which indicated that it was a boy), so I'm still holding out hope. Add in a female dog, and a female cat, and I'm just screwed.


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## Abstraction (Jun 27, 2005)

Just a postscript for those people posting that money doesn't buy happiness. They've actually done studies, you know. What they found is that above a certain income level (depending on size of family), more money indeed does not buy more happiness. It doesn't even buy a feeling of more security, since the majority of people making that money are still in debt up to their eyeballs.

*However,* below that margin, the less money you make, the more unhappy people are. More health problems, relationship problems, skyrocketing stress, higher levels of depression.

The point is that money doesn't buy happiness, but poverty buys a lot of unhappiness.


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## Eeralai (Jun 27, 2005)

Not all women are expensive.

Anyway, to me the lifestyle that Forbes talks about is rich no matter what they say.  The vacation home is what puts it in that bracket for me.  What is astounding to me is realestate prices right now.  We just bought a house, and even in Albuquerque, NM the prices have gone nuts.  We are one of the poorest states in the country, but whole suburbs of  $600,000 houses are going up by the mountains.  I couldn't figure out who could afford that in our city even with a two person income.  But apparently people are moving here from California because they can buy much nicer houses for the money than what they can get in their state.  I guess they are willing to give up the ocean for a big house.


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## glass (Jun 27, 2005)

Abstraction said:
			
		

> The point is that money doesn't buy happiness, but poverty buys a lot of unhappiness.




Well said.


glass.


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## Zappo (Jun 27, 2005)

Abstraction said:
			
		

> The point is that money doesn't buy happiness, but poverty buys a lot of unhappiness.



Agreed. Ipods and sports car don't make you happy - but not having any free time, not being able to afford medicines, and not being able to feed your family certainly makes you unhappy. I'm not very rich, but I'm glad I'm well above that.


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## Hand of Evil (Jun 27, 2005)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *Algebra is fun.*
> 
> A thesis.
> 
> ...



It is the _want_ of money that is evil.      So, it is the want of women that is evil, man is incapable of knowing the wants of women, so, man is incapable of knowing evil, so man is innocent?

Once had a women friend tell me, she had a date that weekend, so she could afford buy new shoes!  

But I sound bad, women are the greatest creation on earth.


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## Mystery Man (Jun 27, 2005)

Abstraction said:
			
		

> What they found is that above a certain income level (depending on size of family), more money indeed does not buy more happiness. It doesn't even buy a feeling of more security, since the majority of people making that money are still in debt up to their eyeballs.




Because the things you own end up owning you.


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## Desdichado (Jun 27, 2005)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> This article says that in the Northeast, to live a good life with high quality stuff (basically, to be a Yuppie), your family of four needs to make at least $211,000 a year.
> 
> http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/forbes/P121206.asp?GT1=6584
> 
> ...



Yuppies don't have college degrees, they have MBAs.  An MBA husband and wife, here in Detroit, at least, which is actually a relatively high income locale, can start right out of college pulling down $150,000 between the two of them, and with a five years, and some ambition, can fairly easily be making over 2 grand.

But I agree that the Yuppie lifestyle is probably overstated.  I only make $85k, my wife doesn't work, and we still do fairly well for ourselves, all things considered.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Jun 27, 2005)

philreed said:
			
		

> This is why my long-term plan includes moving to western North Dakota. Inexpensive, secluded, and the perfect place for hermit-types like me. I'd much rather structure my life around living 50-100 miles from a city than being in the middle of a city. If I had my way I wouldn't leave my place more than once a month.




It's a shame we're both already spoken for, Phil, we could have a wonderful life together.


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## GlassJaw (Jun 27, 2005)

> The point is that money doesn't buy happiness, but poverty buys a lot of unhappiness.




So true.  My dad always says money isn't everything, but it sure does help.



> Because the things you own end up owning you.




The one who dies with the most toys wins.



> It's a shame we're both already spoken for, Phil, we could have a wonderful life together.




Yikes.


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## Henry (Jun 27, 2005)

Down to a certain point, you can live on what you HAVE to live on, like Bloodstone Press says. I and my wife together make FAR less than 100,000 a year, and we do pretty well, when we're not screwing up with exhorbitant debt. If I had kids, there are two lessons that I would hammer into their heads time and time again -- (1)be a good person and (2) beware debt.


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## DaveMage (Jun 27, 2005)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> But I sound bad, women are the greatest creation on earth.




Even better than cookie dough ice cream?!?!?!?

I don't know about that....


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## Mystery Man (Jun 27, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> Down to a certain point, you can live on what you HAVE to live on, like Bloodstone Press says. I and my wife together make FAR less than 100,000 a year, and we do pretty well, when we're not screwing up with exhorbitant debt. If I had kids, there are two lessons that I would hammer into their heads time and time again -- (1)be a good person and (2) beware debt.





I'm hammering this into my sons brain at 10 years old. Teaching him to be practical with his money. All that good stuff. I use myself as an example on what_ not _ to do.


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## Eosin the Red (Jun 27, 2005)

I don't think it is actually that hard to bring in $50.00 an hour or at least close to it. I am an RN and pull down a salary within that range. We are a one family income because raising my kids right is important to both me and the wife. Together we manage three children and a nice house (in Oklahoma that is actually affordable) but we try not to live beyond our means. We only have on car, we avoid credit debt like the plague, and we don't go nuts with entertainment (i.e. basic cable, one phone, one game console, a modest computer, no more than one night a week eating out, etc...). I think the key is deciding what is important to you and then cutting back on the love of money to fit your life around the "must haves" instead of the "cool toys."


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## Kanegrundar (Jun 27, 2005)

My fiancee and I make well less than 200K a year by only making around 60K between the two of us.  We own our home, have 2 nice Saturns to drive, and a dog.  She's going to college to get her Masters in Education and we have some debt on top of that.  However, we live just fine.  There are times when we have to tighten our belts, but most of the time we have plenty of money to go out to eat or go to a movie.  The very idea of owning a vacation home is idiotic.  That's rich, plain and simple.  We're looking for a new home, and while we can figure on getting a loan for 150K, unless we get away from KC, we're not going to be able to buy much and that means no second home.  

The way I've always looked at it, as long as I can afford a roof over my head, clothes on my back, food in my stomach, bills paid, and still have a little money to go out or spend on my hobbies, then I'm living very well.  

Kane


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## Wystan (Jun 27, 2005)

I live 10 Minutes from NY City, in NJ. I can tell you that houses here are NUTS...1 family 2 bedroom houses break 200k Easily. In Upstate NY as well...


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## Kanegrundar (Jun 27, 2005)

I read somwhere a couple weeks ago that out of all the things that we have to spend money on, housing is outpacing increases in income.  That not only means it's more expensive to buy a home, but to keep one as well.  I wish I could convince my fiancee to move to Montana or the Dakotas where the housing market hasn't gone completely insane yet...

Kane


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## Wulf Ratbane (Jun 27, 2005)

Kanegrundar said:
			
		

> The way I've always looked at it, as long as I can afford a roof over my head, clothes on my back, food in my stomach, bills paid, and still have a little money to go out or spend on my hobbies, then I'm living very well.




You forgot the ale and whores.

Unless those are "hobbies."


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## Henry (Jun 27, 2005)

Kanegrundar said:
			
		

> My fiancee and I make well less than 200K a month by only making around 60K between the two of us.




I think I could live on $60,000 a month...


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## Southern Oracle (Jun 27, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> An addendum to my previous post: I love my wife, I love her a lot. Yea, women are really expensive, but I wouldn't want to live life without her. So, it's worth it.
> 
> I have a daughter, too. So, she'll grow up to be really expensive. And according to our last sonogram, we're having a second daughter (contrary to an earlier sonogram which indicated that it was a boy), so I'm still holding out hope. Add in a female dog, and a female cat, and I'm just screwed.




Man, why didn't I pay more attention in math??? I have a wife, FOUR daughters, and THREE female cats. No WONDER I can't pay my bills...


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## Goobermunch (Jun 27, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> I think I could live on $60,000 a month...




Not if you only worked one month a year.  

--G


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## Desdichado (Jun 27, 2005)

A perhaps related phenomena: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050626/ap_on_bi_ge/the_entitlement_generation


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## Kanegrundar (Jun 27, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> I think I could live on $60,000 a month...



 Crap.  Once again, I fail to proofread.  That's 60K a year.  Yeesh...

Kane


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## philreed (Jun 27, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> It's a shame we're both already spoken for, Phil, we could have a wonderful life together.




Yeah? You a hermit?  I wanted an old missile silo but my wife refuses to live underground. Me, I think it makes perfect sense. I want to see a tornado or storm come down in the ground with me.

Part of what opened my eyes was when I started searching the country for a place to dig a hole and crawl in. My wife is from North Dakota and I lived there for 10 years so I figured why not look. I was astounded at the price of houses. Hell, I found a five unti apartment complex with a 6-car garage for $60,000.

See, I'd rather spend low $$$$ for land and building and then dump the rest of my money into customizing it to suit me and filling it with what I want. With the internet and UPS it's _almost_ at the point I don't have to go anywhere. I may as well take advantage of what's at hand. Plus, living in a place like that means that I can continue to live off of pubishing RPG material.


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## philreed (Jun 27, 2005)

Kanegrundar said:
			
		

> Crap.  Once again, I fail to proofread.  That's 60K a year.  Yeesh...
> 
> Kane




You'd be happier with $60k/month.


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## diaglo (Jun 27, 2005)

edumuchation


with a higher degree you can make mo' money. doctors, lawyers, and MBAs will tell you that.


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## Simplicity (Jun 27, 2005)

IamTheTest said:
			
		

> Well, look at the lifestyle in question.  Do I need two brand new Lexus's, a boat, and swimming pool?  Nah.  Id live just fine with a 3 bedroom, 2 bathroom home in a nice neighborhood and that certainly wouldnt cost 200k.




Depends on where you live, I guess.  In the San Diego area, very basic single family homes are around $500,000.  We're trying to move up to the Bay Area because we both have job opportunities up there.  Houses up there (at least the ones that don't give you an hour and a half commute) start around $700,000.

We're not talking 2 Lexi and a swimming pool.  We're talking 3 bedroom, 1 to 1 and 1/2 bathroom houses.  We're lucky because we both have good degrees, and we can (just barely) look at trying to get a home.  But it would be pretty hard to do if both of us weren't working, or if either of us didn't have a good job.

I really don't know how people get by with prices like that.  I assume virtually everyone spends hours every day on a train or in a car trying to get to where they work...


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## Kanegrundar (Jun 27, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> A perhaps related phenomena: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050626/ap_on_bi_ge/the_entitlement_generation



 I manage a computer lab for the Farm Service Agency in Saline County, Missouri.  I've had a lot of people roll through the lab through the last 3 years that i've been in charge, and it's true, kids today feel that they are owed something.  It's laughable.  I'm 27, so I fall into this "Entitlement Generation", but never once did I feel that just because I am who I am that I'm entitled to be treated better by my employer.  I had one guy, who was a few years older than me and who I beat out for the job I now have, that felt that just because he went to college (got a degree in Ag Mechanics that does nothing for him in the GIS field), got married, and had a kid that he should be given a position.  Nevermind the fact that he had basically no advanced computer skills, and never bothered to learn anything about the programs we use in our everyday work beyond the basics that you need just to do the job that all the kids do bck there.  Even when they bought him up front (the lab is kept in the back of the office away from the farmers coming in to report acres and such) to help out with filing, printing maps, updating the county linework, etc.; he still told the CED (the guy that even I answer to) what he was and wasn't going to do.  Most time he sat at his computer doing crossword puzzles on the internet while being angry that he wasn't in charge of the lab or given any other full-time position (the lab workers are all temps except for me).  He left finally (he was a day or two from being fired) to go farm for his dad.  After all, the FSA didn't appreciate him enough (his every own words).  

That was an extreme case, but I see it to varying degrees with all the kids that work for me in the lab.  They know when they are hired that they are temporary.  That means no benefits other than vacation time and sick leave, but yet they complain about it.  The feel that they are essential to the workings of the FSA.  Well, they aren't.  Heck, I'm not even essential.  It aggrivates me that ANYONE feels that they are owed anything just becuase they did some work in college.  A degree without continuing drive and determination gets to no further than someone without a degree that also has no drive or determination.  

Kane


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## Kanegrundar (Jun 27, 2005)

philreed said:
			
		

> You'd be happier with $60k/month.



 hehehe... I think we all would!


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## der_kluge (Jun 27, 2005)

Kanegrundar said:
			
		

> My fiancee and I make well less than 200K a year by only making around 60K between the two of us.  We own our home, have 2 nice Saturns to drive, and a dog.  She's going to college to get her Masters in Education and we have some debt on top of that.  However, we live just fine.  There are times when we have to tighten our belts, but most of the time we have plenty of money to go out to eat or go to a movie.  The very idea of owning a vacation home is idiotic.  That's rich, plain and simple.  We're looking for a new home, and while we can figure on getting a loan for 150K, unless we get away from KC, we're not going to be able to buy much and that means no second home.




I don't know in which part of KC you live, but you might consider looking in Spring Hill (south of Olathe). It's a lot cheaper therer than in Olathe proper, and it's not terribly far away. That's where I moved away from.

KC is also fairly expensive. The property tax rates there are some of the highest in the country.


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## der_kluge (Jun 27, 2005)

Southern Oracle said:
			
		

> Man, why didn't I pay more attention in math??? I have a wife, FOUR daughters, and THREE female cats. No WONDER I can't pay my bills...




Dude, you ARE screwed.


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## Kanegrundar (Jun 27, 2005)

Spring Hill is going the wrong direction for me.  I drive to work everyday to Marshall, MO, which is a little over an hour east of KC.  We've been looking at homes in Oak Grove, Odessa, Lexington, and Higginsville.  That keeps us close enough to KC for her comfort (she's a city girl from StL), but gets us far enough away that the taxes and home costs aren't as bad.  Plus, those are much quieter towns, so that suits me (a country boy from rural Marshall) just fine.

The KC Metro area is just too expensive to live.  We do just fine here, but we could be living a lot better elsewhere.

Kane


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## der_kluge (Jun 27, 2005)

I read an article a couple of weeks ago talking about how no one was having children in the San Francisco area anymore.  It talked about how the cost of living had reached a point to where people had to have two incomes in order to afford a house and there wasn't time to raise a family. Combine that with a large gay population, and you have a city where very few people actually have families anymore.

I knew this was a problem in Italy (not the gay population part), but I saw a news article talking about how men there live at home until they're well into their 30s, and women all get careers, and have no desire to settle down. In one Italian town, they talked about closing the elementary school altogether since they only had like 3 students enrolled in kindergarten. Interesting.


Another thing about this "study" that I don't understand is the concept of a vacation home. I've only ever known a handful of people who had a vacation home. The very idea is a strange one to me, and seems more prevalent on the east coast. People from the midwest just don't do this. I'd rather travel the country when I go on vacation. I wouldn't want to go to the same place year after year, unless I'd already been everywhere else, and loved this one place more than any other.


I also don't understand why companies which exist in places like Silicon Valley don't relocate to the midwest.  I would think those places would have much happier employees, who didn't have to spend 2-3 hours a day driving into work. That, and I would think they'd have a hard time recruiting people who didn't already live there.  I know I'd move to Boise, ID or Pierre, ND before I moved to San Jose, CA.  Any. day. of. the. week.


I don't know the secret to making a lot of money with a degree like journalism, or teaching, or social work. Those are hard fields to succeed in. To be successful, you have to be super good at what you do. Charisma and intelligence helps a lot. In my field, you have to find a niche, and it helps if it's in high demand. If you're the only guy that can fit the round peg into the square hole, and companies are all looking for people who can do that, then you can command top dollar. That's true in a lot of fields.  IT and healthcare are good fields to make a decent living in.  But I think you can be successful in any field if you're willing to take on a lot of risk. I'm not a big risk-taker, but I think for those who are, you can make a lot of money if you're bets pay off.


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## WayneLigon (Jun 27, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> I also don't understand why companies which exist in places like Silicon Valley don't relocate to the midwest. I would think those places would have much happier employees, who didn't have to spend 2-3 hours a day driving into work. That, and I would think they'd have a hard time recruiting people who didn't already live there. I know I'd move to Boise, ID or Pierre, ND before I moved to San Jose, CA. Any. day. of. the. week.




1. Finding qualified people for those companies in those places is going to be much, much harder. They'd have to hire elsewhere and get people to move there. That's not going to happen often because of

2. Quality of Life issues. While Boise did see a remarkable (for it) growth in IT in the 90's, it's still a city that's _half_ the size of the crappy place _I_ live. When you're used to the ammenities a metropolitan area has to offer, it's really really hard to downgrade that far.


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## BiggusGeekus (Jun 27, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> I read an article a couple of weeks ago talking about how no one was having children in the San Francisco area anymore.  It talked about how the cost of living had reached a point to where people had to have two incomes in order to afford a house and there wasn't time to raise a family.




Yeah, you see this more in Europe or so I'm told.  Kids are expensive.





> Another thing about this "study" that I don't understand is the concept of a vacation home. I've only ever known a handful of people who had a vacation home. The very idea is a strange one to me, and seems more prevalent on the east coast. People from the midwest just don't do this. I'd rather travel the country when I go on vacation.




Some of these homes have been in families for generations.  Think of a $50,000 home on a plot of land worth $500,000.  Then of course, is the idiocy factor.  One of my Mom's friends has a son entering college.  The friend has no idea how they'll pay for college but they just got a vacation home in Stone Harbor, NJ.  I bit my tounge when I heard that.





> I don't know the secret to making a lot of money with a degree like journalism, or teaching, or social work.




Niether do I.  That's why I went into computers.


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## howandwhy99 (Jun 27, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Yuppies don't have college degrees, they have MBAs.




Quoted for truth


RW,

Very few undergrad degrees are going to have the potential of earning $100,000+ right out of college. Back in the 90's my younger brother pulled it off at age 19 and he didn't even have his degree. But that was back when the CompSci craze was over-the-top. Even CS minors graduating from my college were being picked up at 40-50K /year.

What can do it for you now? Chemical Engineering, Electrical Engineering, and possibly Actuarial Sciences if you can pass a majority of the certifications. I'm sure there are others, but straight out of college w/ the opportunity to earn that in a few years? You really have to go hard sciences. 

The one thing I would suggest to you knowing a little of your background is get a money-maker Masters. You can get another in a couple years after you earn enough to pay for it yourself. But nearly any Masters degree program doesn't really discriminate about what you took in undergrad unless you're looking at a professional degree (med, not law. Law schools tend not to care either). 

The secret is most people w/ a background like yours = good grades, ivy league college, do NOT pay for their masters. Even if you apply for a highly competitive program you'll get a package that allows you to pay for it after the fact. Grad. degrees are the ticket to most high skilled/high paying jobs. It just takes time and effort.


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## Enkhidu (Jun 27, 2005)

Southern Oracle said:
			
		

> Man, why didn't I pay more attention in math??? I have a wife, FOUR daughters, and THREE female cats. No WONDER I can't pay my bills...




Man, we all know that the reason you can't pay your bills is that you're too busy putting the toilet seat down.


----------



## ragboy (Jun 27, 2005)

philreed said:
			
		

> You'd be happier with $60k/month.




And he could hire a proofreader...  

I've been on either side of the income spectrum over the last 5 years. Went from a $75k a year job to $0K a year. We not only managed to hold on to our house (by me working about 300 odd jobs a week and writing technical books), but we also didn't accrue a lot of crazy debt. After about a year and half, I managed to get a job that was a little more than half the income of the previous, and we've struggled, but managed to keep from sliding back into a hole of debt. I think it's all about what you think 'lifestyle' means. I can spend hours playing cars with my four year old, or D&D with my older kids, or going to the lake to throw in a line, or just sitting in the park and enjoying the day. The way I see it, if all of your essentials are taken care of (housing, transport, food, health insurance, and utilities - with some buffer cash for emergencies) then everything else is gravy. Just depends on how much gravy you want. And how much you want to pay for it. Other than my passion for books and addiction to gaming junk, I have very few 'gravy' expenses.


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## ragboy (Jun 27, 2005)

Kanegrundar said:
			
		

> It aggrivates me that ANYONE feels that they are owed anything just becuase they did some work in college. A degree without continuing drive and determination gets to no further than someone without a degree that also has no drive or determination.




And a CS degree provides you nothing that you can actually use in the working world. Hell, the draw of the IT industry is that anyone can pick up books and software, figure them out, and start working (though now you have to take a handful of tests to be competetive). Like you said, all it takes is drive. IT is all about on-the-job training.


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## shaylon (Jun 27, 2005)

IamTheTest said:
			
		

> Well, look at the lifestyle in question.  Do I need two brand new Lexus's, a boat, and swimming pool?  Nah.  Id live just fine with a 3 bedroom, 2 bathroom home in a nice neighborhood and that certainly wouldnt cost 200k.




In the NorthEast U.S.?  Yeah it would cost every bit of that.

As someone who has lived in NJ/NYC area, it is a large difference from living in Ohio.  My home, which is by no means glamorous would cost 5-7 times what I paid if it were in North Jersey.  

As far as getting a 105,500 dollar a year job, I will let you know when I get one.    That isn't what everyone makes there.  New York City has it's fair share of waitresses, writers, artists, and more that struggle (but DO) get by each month.

-Shay


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## drothgery (Jun 27, 2005)

shaylon said:
			
		

> As someone who has lived in NJ/NYC area, it is a large difference from living in Ohio.  My home, which is by no means glamorous would cost 5-7 times what I paid if it were in North Jersey.




Heck, there's a large increase in cost for approximately the same house from Dayton (a very cheap place to live) to a nice suburb of Cleveland or Columbus. And another large increase from that to a nice (but not too distant) suburb of Chicago. Yet another large increase from that to LA or San Diego or Washington, DC. And still another to the San Fransico area or the New York City area (the most expensive places to live in the US).


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## drothgery (Jun 27, 2005)

ragboy said:
			
		

> And a CS degree provides you nothing that you can actually use in the working world. Hell, the draw of the IT industry is that anyone can pick up books and software, figure them out, and start working (though now you have to take a handful of tests to be competetive). Like you said, all it takes is drive. IT is all about on-the-job training.




I don't think there's a better way to learn the theory behind programming than from a good Computer Science degree program (a good Software Engineering degree program would be better, but there just aren't many of them). And knowing the theory does matter.


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## BiggusGeekus (Jun 27, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Heck, there's a large increase in cost for approximately the same house from Dayton (a very cheap place to live) to a nice suburb of Cleveland or Columbus. And another large increase from that to a nice (but not too distant) suburb of Chicago. Yet another large increase from that to LA or San Diego or Washington, DC.




When I moved from Xenia (a town near Dayton) to DC, I thought myself very clever for negotiating a $30k/year salary.  Imagine my surprise at the increase in cost-of-living expenses.....


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## Kanegrundar (Jun 27, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> When I moved from Xenia (a town near Dayton) to DC, I thought myself very clever for negotiating a $30k/year salary.  Imagine my surprise at the increase in cost-of-living expenses.....



 The government set your pay scale based on where you work.  My best friend's wife works for the EPA in DC.  She's at the same wage grade that I am and makes several thousand dollars more a year than I do.  The coasts are far too expensive to live.  Get me the Midwest with it's reasonably affordable housing and food costs anyday.

Kane


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## Hijinks (Jun 27, 2005)

> the morale of this story is that women are the root of all evil, and if you want to retire wealthy, never marry.




I would disagree (yes, yes, I know it's tongue-in-cheek), not just on the basis of being female but on the basis of being a 30-year-old female who's never married.  I've had to take care of myself, work 2 jobs to put myself through college part time, and am just now on my feet and able to (though budgeting closely) have a few nice things, all on myown salary.  I think I've definitely learned the value of a dollar, and I don't expect any man to take care of me - I take care of mySELF.  I think if I were to get married now, I wouldn't "expect" a certain lifestyle, and I would make sure to know just how much is coming into the marriage and how much is required for basic living expenses, and budget accordingly.

So I adjust your saying:  Young women who have never lived on their own and can't take care of themselves are the root of all evil


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## Simplicity (Jun 27, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> I don't think there's a better way to learn the theory behind programming than from a good Computer Science degree program (a good Software Engineering degree program would be better, but there just aren't many of them). And knowing the theory does matter.




Going off-topic a bit...  Hmmm...  A software engineering degree can help you to earn money.  I don't know that it's the best way to learn the theory.  I would personally 
prefer a program that has more even coverage.  OS, compiler, theory, software engineering, architecture.  

The "theory" of software engineering gets silly at times.  What if we took win-win design and combined that with spiral models...  to get win-win spiral models!  Everybody is happy and you take risks in an ever-expanding spiral!  Yay!  It's all just philosophy at some point.


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## BiggusGeekus (Jun 27, 2005)

Kanegrundar said:
			
		

> The coasts are far too expensive to live.  Get me the Midwest with it's reasonably affordable housing and food costs anyday.




Yeah.  And it's not too hard to find an area with decent night-life and arty movie theaters either.  Like the Oregon District in Dayton.


Ah well.


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## nothing to see here (Jun 27, 2005)

One trend to watch for is people using what they own FOR income.  As property values continue to rise, a growing portion of the population refinance their mortgages against the increased property value, thereby using their increasing equity as an income supplement.

Of course...when property values drop (as, in all cyclical things, the invariably will), that will leave a large number of people in quite the bind.  But right now the house part of that $200,000 lifestyle will actually provide a lot of the income to support the rest.


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 28, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> I don't have a physical or any major mental disabilities. I do have Mosaic Downsyndrome, whch allows me to collect SSD, but doesn't forbid me from joining a branch of military service.




Ah, ok.




> What is section 8 housing?




Housing where the gov't pays part of the rent and/or utilities for low-income people and families. Usually helps if you're a minority to get this... white folks have a hard time getting housing as most think they can get a decent job; usually better than most blacks and other races. You'd have an easier time, being on disability...

Heck. I should tell my friend to get into this program. He's on disability. His family drives him bonkers-they could care less that he exists at all, except for a target to "bitch and moan" at...   

There's also food stamps as well...




> Yeah, especially being that I tried college before and ended up getting a 'W' in most classes. So, being that I have found my pace and am determined to not throw my life away, they are being quite generous.




That's good. The abovementioned friend sure would love to have a supportive family like yours!


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## Angel Tarragon (Jun 28, 2005)

Thanks for the info Darth!


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## drothgery (Jun 28, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> When I moved from Xenia (a town near Dayton) to DC, I thought myself very clever for negotiating a $30k/year salary.  Imagine my surprise at the increase in cost-of-living expenses.....




I didn't quite understand why I was being offered $60K for a junior-level programming job when I flew out to San Diego for an interview for the job I took four years ago (and which kind of morphed into my current job). Then I figured out what my rent would be like, and that CA taxes are even worse than NY taxes.


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## EricNoah (Jun 28, 2005)

My advice on the secret to wealth: be a DINK. 

*D*ual-
*I*ncome,
*N*o
*K*ids



On a more serious note, my (few) financial secrets include:  buy used cars instead of new, with cash if you can; pay off any credit cards you can as soon as you can and then pay off your entire bill every month; stay away from expensive hobbies; money spent on exercise is a good investment (to a point); refinance your mortgage if you haven't recently; eat at home more than you eat out (that's one I often fail to do!).


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## Simplicity (Jun 28, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> stay away from expensive hobbies




You mean like starting a 3e rumors site?


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## der_kluge (Jun 28, 2005)

My wife and I need to work up a new budget. We've done this before, but we rarely follow it. I make enough to where we tend to just go buy and do whatever we want, but it certainly isn't helping us save any money by living that kind of lifestyle.  So, I mentioned to her yesterday that we needed to work on a new budget, and then work to try to stick with it.


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## Angel Tarragon (Jun 28, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> My advice on the secret to wealth: be a DINK.
> 
> *D*ual-
> *I*ncome,
> ...



  Sheesh.


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## Treebore (Jun 28, 2005)

I have a wife and 3 kids. Been married the past 14.5 years and our first kid was born on our one year wedding anniversary.

Finances sucked for the first 5 years, then I heard Dave Ramsey on the radio and realized he made sense. I/we didn't go to the extremes he suggested, but in 9 years we have reduced our debt by over $60,000.00 and increased our net worth from just above nothing to over $2.1 Million. Not with real estate either. Our income over the last 9 years has gone from $42,000.00 to a current $58,000.00. 

We are working on things right now that should raise that to between $84,000.00 to as high as $120,000.00 if it goes real well. BTW, all of my income is stated as AFTER taxes, it is actual take home.

What have been our "tricks", like Eric said, buy only used cars, 4 years or older are usually best. Biggest trick of all, live as far below your means as you can stand it. We have lived well enough below our means to where we have been investing 30 to 40% of our income for the last 9 years.

You want a get rich scheme? I just told you how to do it, free of charge. Lots of little tricks of living cheaply, but you can learn those on your own, besides they are heavily dependent on your personal situation. But anyone can do it this way, but it is not easy. Lots of sacrificing now for what you get later. Lots of telling yourself and your kids, "No, you can't have that." But it is paying off and will continue to do so for us. 

In fact, I was so in the mind set of "living like I am poor" I was freaking out about my wife being medically discharged from the Army. Then one of our fellow gamer buddies (meaning he frequents this board) called me and talked to me about finances. He started making me realize we have a LOT of net worth. So I have cashed in about $70,000 of it, found some great opportunities since then, and now I know we are going to be just fine.

We are still fighting the BS the Army has pulled on my wife and hundreds of other disabled soldiers, but we now have two Senators helping us make the Army take care of their own, just like their very own regulations have said they should, which they have been blithely ignoring. Until now.

Plus the Veterans Administration and Social Security look like they are going to take care of my wife like they should as well.

Anyway, you can control your own life, and make yourself rich, but it isn't easy, it isn't quick, but it is possible. Plus you can do it with a wife and kids.

 In my case I don't know if I ever would have without them. They are what gave me my focus for the discipline that has been necessary, and my wife is the same way. Plus she has been the "genius" in our investments. I would have never used her investment strategies, and neither would any financial advisor I have talked to over the years. A very unorthodox approach, but with extremely high returns. An orthodox approach would have our net worth at about $200,000.00 right now.

So a woman can make money a lot faster than she can spend it. But she has also been the reason we aren't worth substantially more than we already are. She does have a serious spending compulsion, but she does her best to fight it.

So here we are, driving around a beat up 11 year old Explorer, living in military housing, own a home in Charleston, SC that is in a "not so good neighborhood", and own a 11 year old conversion Van. But our net worth is over $2.1 Million and growing because of it. Our "bills" are less than $1500/month plus the $1500 being eaten up by the military housing we are currently living in.

So yes, you can do it. But it won't be easy by any means. Oh, and when you do become worth a lot, don't let your family know. They will run to your door and try to guilt you into helping them out through their financial hardships. Then when you refuse they quit talking to you for not giving them the help. In a few more years I'll be willing to help my parents and brothers, but my kids inheritance and my future financial security will happen first.

Besides, they could have listened to me all these years and have done those all for themselves. I'm not going to shoot my portfolio down to help them out because we did what needed to be done and they didn't.

So don't tell your family you have a lot of money until you have enough to help them out without seriously damaging or destroying your financial plan. They won't take it well when you tell them no.


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## Old One (Jun 30, 2005)

Treebore,

Glad to hear things are lookin' up (at least on the Army/VA/SS continum)...continued well wishes on getting that whole issue hashed out!

~ OO


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## kenobi65 (Jun 30, 2005)

Pbartender said:
			
		

> You probably don't live within 100 miles of Chicago, do you?
> 
> We rent a small 70 year-old, 2 bedroom, 1 bathroom house in a nice neighborhood about 40 miles west of Chicago.  Four years ago, it was appraised at about $190,000.




No kidding.  We live in Brookfield (just west of Chicago), and I was astounded at (a) how much it cost to buy our house in 1996, and (b) how much it's worth now.

My parents live in Green Bay, about 3 hours north of us, in a house with twice the square feet...but that is "worth" less than ours.

Location, location, location.


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## Old One (Jun 30, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> My advice on the secret to wealth: be a DINK.
> 
> *D*ual-
> *I*ncome,
> ...




Wisdom!  Wisdom!

Kids are darn expensive (but they sure are cute )!  

The second half of Mr. Noah's post is spot on.  The easiest way to great wealth (after winning the lottery or marrying into it) is living below your means.  A good buddy of mine who is a banker (I work as a financial planner) call Americans between 18-55 "The Fast Food Generation(s)" - meaning everyone wants things "hot, fast and now"!

Don't have the money in the checking account?  Just put it on credit !  Credit cards, consumer debt and buying brand-new cars are all huge wealth-killers.

Back to the original questions, most people earning those kind of incomes don't fall into them.  They have either worked their way up through the ranks (working 70-80 hour+ weeks along the way), have one or more advanced business related degrees (MBA, eMBA, MHA, etc) or some combination thereof.

~ OO


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## GlassJaw (Jun 30, 2005)

> The easiest way to great wealth (after winning the lottery or marrying into it) is living below your means.




Well what's the point of having money if you don't enjoy it?  I'd rather have a nice car and enjoy but have another monthy payment than drive around in an s-box.  You only live once and you can't take it with you.


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## Old One (Jun 30, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> Well what's the point of having money if you don't enjoy it?  I'd rather have a nice car and enjoy but have another monthy payment than drive around in an s-box.  You only live once and you can't take it with you.




Actually, I am a big fan of enjoying the money you have.  Life is short - you only go around once - it only costs a little more to go first-class, etc.  I drive a nice car, take nice vacations and enjoy a relatively high standard of living (by national standards)...but I do it with money I have.

What I am not a big fan of is enjoying money you don't have.  Maxed-out credit cards, living paycheck-to-paycheck, buying cars on 5, 6, 7 and 8-year notes (where the car is depreciating far faster than you pay it off) and always having too much month for the money is how many Americans live.  Fine way to go if you want to be a perpetual debtor and never have 2 nickles to rub together.  Not my cup of tea.

Start saving $250 per month at age 25 and you end up with ~ $872,000 at age 65 (assuming 8% annually).  Wait until age 35 to start saving because you want to use the extra $250 per month for clubbing, clothes or auto-bling and you end up with only ~ $372,000.  That's a $500,000 opportunity cost...maybe worth it for some...not worth it to me.

~ OO


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## IcyCool (Jun 30, 2005)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *Algebra is fun.*
> 
> A thesis.
> 
> ...




This, while entertaining, is mathematically incorrect.  The mathematical equivalent of *and* is addition, not multiplication.  So you wind up with women = 2*(evil)^1.5, which isn't nearly as funny.


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## der_kluge (Jun 30, 2005)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> This, while entertaining, is mathematically incorrect.  The mathematical equivalent of *and* is addition, not multiplication.  So you wind up with women = 2*(evil)^1.5, which isn't nearly as funny.




But still funny.  Unless you're a women, I s'pose.


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## GlassJaw (Jun 30, 2005)

> What I am not a big fan of is enjoying money you don't have. Maxed-out credit cards, living paycheck-to-paycheck, buying cars on 5, 6, 7 and 8-year notes




Couldn't agree more.  I've been doing this since I got out of college.

The car loan thing boggles my mind.  If you have to take out a 5+ year loan on a car, you probably can't afford it.  I don't look at loans as how much I'll pay per month for X years.  I look at them as how much over my monthly payment can I pay so I can pay the loan off faster.

Same with credit cards.  IMO, you should never put something on your credit card that you couldn't pay off all at once if you had to.


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## Desdichado (Jun 30, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> The car loan thing boggles my mind.  If you have to take out a 5+ year loan on a car, you probably can't afford it.  I don't look at loans as how much I'll pay per month for X years.  I look at them as how much over my monthly payment can I pay so I can pay the loan off faster.



But sometimes short term cash flow is more important that overall cash outlay.  And if the short-term cash flow is significantly different enough, and you're smart enough, you can still turn that around into a net positive overall cash position too.

I don't get the "it depreciates faster than you can pay for it" line though -- to me, cars aren't an investment, they're a tool.  You buy them to use them, not to resell them.  I've had my current car for ten years, and I intend to drive it for at least several years more.


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## Ace (Jun 30, 2005)

philreed said:
			
		

> This is why my long-term plan includes moving to western North Dakota. Inexpensive, secluded, and the perfect place for hermit-types like me. I'd much rather structure my life around living 50-100 miles from a city than being in the middle of a city. If I had my way I wouldn't leave my place more than once a month.




No face to face gaming eh?

As for living well -- most people don't -- globally most people live in abject misery. Even those that don't (say in the US) have problems -- 

Let me use the US for an example 

To live well -- say as well proportionatly as well as someone did in 1968 -- with a nice house and a car takes 2 incomes -- 

Someone who is 27 should reasonably be expected to have enough wealth to start a family. Many do not -- it can cost up to $25 to 50K US (including opportunity costs) to raise a child per year -- I do not think it is entitlement to expect the same percentage of the national "pie" as you parents got . heck in many cases the better educatated are making less too 

wages for a lot of jobs - heck even the minimum wageare about 1/3 less than at peak (1968) 

from Common Dreams.org (minus political bits) and adjusted for 2005 Dollars 

In recent decades, the minimum wage floor has fallen, dragging down average real wages as well. The real value of the minimum wage peaked in 1968 at $7.92 per hour (in 2000 dollars). Since then, worker productivity went up, but wages went down. Productivity grew 74.2 percent between 1968 and 2000, but hourly wages for average workers fell 3 percent, adjusting for inflation. Real wages for minimum wage workers--two-thirds of whom are adults--fell 35 percent.

If wages had kept pace with rising productivity since 1968, the average hourly wage would have been $27.27 in 2000, rather than $15.95 (Bureau of labor stats) . The minimum wage would be $8.84--not $5.75. (most recent stats ) 

SNIP
 The minimum wage would be $13.02 if had kept pace with domestic profits and $20.46 if it had risen with retail profits. (as of 2000) 

CEO pay went up, but workers' wages went down. In 1980, the average CEO at a major corporation made as much as 97 minimum wage workers. 


In 2000, they made as much as 1,223 minimum wage workers.


(END Common Dreams material)   (my add on) I don't what 2005 stats are 

Basically  you and the wife are making what just you or the wife would have made --

What makes this sting less is low prices for certain goods (do to manufacturing efficiency) and easy credit 

Basically most American properity is an illusion , you only seem  you seem to have about as much as the past generation. In reality you have 1/3 to 1/2 less

If you were relativly  as prosperous as you were in 1968 in terms of percent of the total national "pie" the fairly ludicrous figures in that Forbes article would be what the two of you would be making with college degrees

As it is the US will undergo a major major contraction with 10-15 (IMNSHO) unless we get another computer revolution like the one spared us the last contraction-- 

Apologies in advance to the mods if it goes too political  -- 

This will be caused by the energy   supply peak, foreign competition who don't buy our goods  that produce jobs, out sourcing and horribly enough by a great increase in manufacturing efficiency --

In the current US system much propsperity has folowed to the corporation or the very rich and relatively little to Joe Average 

Cultural barriers and (probably) international affairs issues 

As far as living well -- shrug -- In your kids generation (9anyone say 20 or so)  if you work for someone else outside of a few trades (not yet outsourced)  the best you can hope for 3 meals, shelter and clothes -- maybe 

If you want propsperity you either have to innovate or work for youself (as Phil does at least in part)


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## Old One (Jun 30, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I don't get the "it depreciates faster than you can pay for it" line though -- to me, cars aren't an investment, they're a tool.  You buy them to use them, not to resell them.  I've had my current car for ten years, and I intend to drive it for at least several years more.




JD - 

That comment comes from 2 sources.

1) If you purchase a new car on a note longer than 42-48 months (depending on make, model and downpayment), the car will be losing resale value faster than you are paying down the loan.  Let's say you buy a new car for $25k and put $1k down.  If you total the car 2 years into ownership - the car may only have a book value of $15k, but you owe $16.5k on the car loan.  You are going to have to come up with $1.5k out of pocket just to pay the loan off.  This is called being "upside down" on the car and is not a good position.  Unless they are buying a used car or making a significant downpayment, I usually don't recommend people get a car loan of longer than 36 months, even if they plan to keep the car long term.  If they can't afford it with a 36-month loan...they can't afford the car.

2) Cars take their steepest deprectiation in the first 2 years (usually 20-40%).  Buying a 2-3 year old used car through a dealer pre-certification program (clean car, extended warranty, roadside assistance) is a much better way to go...let some other chump take the steep front-end depreciation...and you can finance 4-5 years without getting "upside down" on the transaction.  This works even better if you drive the car for 7-10 years, bank the extra payments and aim to pay cash for the next and all future cars.

Many Americans buy brand new cars, finance them with 5-8 year car notes, drive them for 2-3 years and then trade them in on another brand new car.  I did a regression analysis on this a couple of years ago using a 2-car couple buying $25,000 autos with each transaction and they ended up wasting something like $400,000 in depreciation and interest opportunity costs over a 30-year car buying time frame.

And don't even get me started on those 0% interest "deals" being offered by many dealers...bleah!

~ OO


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## Old One (Jun 30, 2005)

Ace said:
			
		

> No face to face gaming eh?
> 
> As for living well -- most people don't -- globally most people live in abject misery. Even those that don't (say in the US) have problems --
> 
> ...




Ace -

Interesting info and figures, but only part of the equation (politics aside).  The other side of the wage coin is the national tax bite.  According to the Tax Foundation, "Tax Freedom" day for the average American was April 17th, 2005.  Up until that point, working Americans were paying all their wages (on an annualized basis) to support local, state and federal taxes (including "hidden" taxes and fees like state/federal gas taxes).

Even with the tax cuts enacted over the last several years, Americans, on average are still paying ~ 30% of their income to cover local, state and federal taxes - more than they spend on food, clothing and medical care combined.  

I also don't necessarily buy the blanket statement that you need 2 incomes to equal one income in 1968, or maintain the same standard of living.  When you run the analysis, which I often do for clients with small children - you often find that one spouse is working just to pay for childcare.  When you factor in childcare/afterschool costs, commuting time/expense, business clothes/expense, the virtual necessity of a second car and associated expenses if you live in Suburbia and the intangibles of non-parental childcare, you find that an annual salary of $25,000 - $30,000 is essentially "break-even" for a family with 2 kids on an after-tax basis.  Make that or less and you are just spinning your wheels.

I also think the _expectations_ for many in this country on the things we must have today - house of a certain size, 2 cars, cable TV, high-speed internet, non-stop sports/social activities for our children - substantially exceed the norm of 1968.

~ OO


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## Abstraction (Jul 1, 2005)

Even though I'm a guy, I hope to be a stay at home parent within a couple years. The one thing I want to point out in your analysis is that you seem to assume that a 1-income family with kids only needs one car? Not likely, these days.

My wife and I make a combined income of ~85,000 a year in northern New Mexico. This is very, very good for our area. We have 40-year old 4 bedroom, 2 bath house which cost us $120,000 (but we'll eventually pay a lot more). We should be living well with plenty saved. Unfortunately, 4 years ago we had a bad year. We had to get by for quite some time on "negative" income, using credit cards. We're still paying it down. Just a reminder to everyone, the interest you pay on high-interest credit cards is far more than the interest that can be made investing (rare cases aside). Put all your money to pay off your debt first. When that is gone, then you take that money and put into the bank/market.


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## Ace (Jul 1, 2005)

Old One said:
			
		

> Ace -
> 
> Interesting info and figures, but only part of the equation (politics aside).  The other side of the wage coin is the national tax bite.  According to the Tax Foundation, "Tax Freedom" day for the average American was April 17th, 2005.  Up until that point, working Americans were paying all their wages (on an annualized basis) to support local, state and federal taxes (including "hidden" taxes and fees like state/federal gas taxes).
> 
> Even with the tax cuts enacted over the last several years, Americans, on average are still paying ~ 30% of their income to cover local, state and federal taxes - more than they spend on food, clothing and medical care combined.




I agree with you here. I realized I forgot the tax bite but was too lazy to fix my post. Worse we get low value on a $ per $ basis. High taxes are rarely good but if other expenses are lowered (food subsidy or socialized medicine) the effect is offset
 European countries have rather extensive social welfare and national health care for not that much more in taxes -- 



			
				Old One said:
			
		

> I also don't necessarily buy the blanket statement that you need 2 incomes to equal one income in 1968, or maintain the same standard of living.  When you run the analysis, which I often do for clients with small children - you often find that one spouse is working just to pay for childcare.  When you factor in childcare/afterschool costs, commuting time/expense, business clothes/expense, the virtual necessity of a second car and associated expenses if you live in Suburbia and the intangibles of non-parental childcare, you find that an annual salary of $25,000 - $30,000 is essentially "break-even" for a family with 2 kids on an after-tax basis.  Make that or less and you are just spinning your wheels.




Also true. The question is how many women (or non working men) have relationships stable enough to have a near certitude that the spouse will support them? With a 50% marriage failure rate it is incumbant that everyone have a career. There is a good chance that one parent (usually the woman) can become soul breadwinner. If she (or he) takes the opportunity hit to not work the risk of impoverishment is really high --

The US has some programs to help working mothers but no where enough since unskilled jobs pay so very little. And if she need daycare to work -- well there is a shortage of inexpensive options. 




			
				Old One said:
			
		

> I also think the _expectations_ for many in this country on the things we must have today - house of a certain size, 2 cars, cable TV, high-speed internet, non-stop sports/social activities for our children - substantially exceed the norm of 1968.
> 
> ~ OO





A valid point but our society is consumption driven. Most of our media is paid for by adds, hell our whole public culture is commerce driven. Its little wonder people think they need moore and more 
Even beyond that  though anyone who works should get a decent portion of the pie. Since the "cool" stuff takes less time and effort input to make it is reasonable for a person to expect the same percentage of the total stuff -- if it takes 10 hours to make a widget in 1968 and 5 hours in 2005 it is reasonable that I can expect 2 Widgets 

Now in terms of real prosperity and speaking only of SO-CAL where I live the only truely outrageous costs are housing and utilities . Everything else is as cheap or  cheaper than most other places I have lived -- food (if you know where to shop) is dirt cheap -- 

Energy and Housing costs are high  (IMO)  because of policies keeping them that way --

 In case of California housing  -- (simplified here)  large illegal and legal immigrant population and housing bubble effects 
 In energy -- (also simplified)  profit concerns {Frex Anahiem  city power costs one third to  half what Con ed does} and unavoidable energy costs

I will refrain from offering solutions though if you relply let me know if you want to continue in E mail  other-- 

My solutions are pure polotics and that violates forum rules 

I think I have bent them a enough  already


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## Abstraction (Jul 1, 2005)

In the book _Nickeled and Dimed_ the author, I forget her name, makes some very good points. One of the truly outrageous problems for the working poor is that they are in competition for the same real estate that the rich are. Of course, the rich always win that competition. Even in a neighborhood-size scale, many low-income (read affordable) areas are being cleared to make way for more profitable (expensive) developments. A large number of the working poor in urban areas actually get from day to day by renting motel rooms. The cost is astronomical, but they have to stay somewhere and there is no way to save up to get an affordable apartment. Just remember how hard the working poor have it when you start complaining about your own problems!


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## Blue_Kryptonite (Jul 1, 2005)

Hearing about other parts of the country always boggles my mind.

120,000 1930s SqFt house, pristing condition, 3 bed, 1 bath, finished basement, in a suburban neighborhood. Paid the going rate of 65k last year.

2000 Ford Explorer, pristine condition. Paid 15k.

2 kids.

We eat out frequently, have four high-end computers, DSL wireless networked, 180-channel satellite.

We make 60k, total. Lots left over.

400 miles North of NYC. The REAL "upstate". Goddess, I love my town.


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## drothgery (Jul 1, 2005)

Dr. Anomalous said:
			
		

> Hearing about other parts of the country always boggles my mind.
> 
> 120,000 1930s SqFt house, pristing condition, 3 bed, 1 bath, finished basement, in a suburban neighborhood. Paid the going rate of 65k last year.
> 
> ...




I was always trying to leave Rochester while I lived there, but that was because I didn't know anyone there. It's not a bad place to live if you don't mind snow, and the only city in upstate NY that doesn't have negative population growth. 

Can't say I regret leaving, though.


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## mac1504 (Jul 1, 2005)

Abstraction said:
			
		

> The point is that money doesn't buy happiness, but poverty buys a lot of unhappiness.




Money doesn't buy happiness, but it buys me the type of misery I prefer.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jul 1, 2005)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> This article says that in the Northeast, to live a good life with high quality stuff (basically, to be a Yuppie), your family of four needs to make at least $211,000 a year.
> 
> http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/forbes/P121206.asp?GT1=6584
> 
> ...



For starters, it's not for people out of college. Come back when you're 45 or 50.


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## Dirigible (Jul 1, 2005)

The human body has a lot of built in redundancy.

I know this guy in the Polish Mafia.

That's all I'm saying, Wick...


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## Desdichado (Jul 1, 2005)

Old One said:
			
		

> Many Americans buy brand new cars, finance them with 5-8 year car notes, drive them for 2-3 years and then trade them in on another brand new car.  I did a regression analysis on this a couple of years ago using a 2-car couple buying $25,000 autos with each transaction and they ended up wasting something like $400,000 in depreciation and interest opportunity costs over a 30-year car buying time frame.



Well, that doesn't make much sense to me, true.  (And I mispoke earlier -- my car is ten years old, but I've had it for eight.  I bought it used on a five year note.  And I know that my overall cash outlay was greater for having it be five year, but at the time, short term cash flow was important to me; I was still in school.)  If you have to have a new car every 2-3 years for whatever reason, a lease is the only way to go.


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## der_kluge (Jul 1, 2005)

We just bought a new minivan. I would have prefered to buy a used one, but unfortunately there are some cars that just aren't available with the features that we wanted. My wife insisted on the navigation system and DVD player as well, so we had to get the top of the line model as well. sheesh

And I don't agree with the statement that a kid costs 25k to 50k a year.  There was a billboard in KC that read something like a kid costing $564 a month.  That's just under 7k a year. Yea, kids aren't cheap, but they aren't outrageously expensive, either.


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## Mallus (Jul 1, 2005)

Dr. Anomalous said:
			
		

> Hearing about other parts of the country always boggles my mind.
> 
> 120,000 1930s SqFt house, pristing condition, 3 bed, 1 bath, finished basement, in a suburban neighborhood. Paid the going rate of 65k last year.
> 
> ...



Are you trying to trick us? You actually live in the past, right?

You bought those comsumer electronics on the vacation you took into the future using the Atom-Powered Time Car your crazy old neighbor Doc Brown built out of an Edsel.


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## Blue_Kryptonite (Jul 1, 2005)

Mallus said:
			
		

> Are you trying to trick us? You actually live in the past, right?
> 
> You bought those comsumer electronics on the vacation you took into the future using the Atom-Powered Time Car your crazy old neighbor Doc Brown built out of an Edsel.





Rochester really is like something off of TV Land or out of a Pre-Crisis comic. Friendly town of 2 or so million if you count the suburbs, where you see everyone at Wegmans from the mayor to local celebrity Lou Grahm buying groceries.


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## JamesDJarvis (Jul 1, 2005)

Dr. Anomalous said:
			
		

> 120,000 1930s SqFt house, pristing condition, 3 bed, 1 bath, finished basement, in a suburban neighborhood. Paid the going rate of 65k last year.




that'd run you about  $180,000 at least near me in southern NH and just over the border into mass it'd be $300,000+


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## JamesDJarvis (Jul 1, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> And I don't agree with the statement that a kid costs 25k to 50k a year.  There was a billboard in KC that read something like a kid costing $564 a month.  That's just under 7k a year. Yea, kids aren't cheap, but they aren't outrageously expensive, either.




$25,000 to $50,000 a year per kid?   Hardly.  That $7,000 a year figure is a lot more accurate.


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## Nellisir (Jul 1, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> We just bought a new minivan. I would have prefered to buy a used one, but unfortunately there are some cars that just aren't available with the features that we wanted. My wife insisted on the navigation system and DVD player as well, so we had to get the top of the line model as well. sheesh




I know that feeling.  I lucked out and found a low mileage used one with all the features we wanted while on vacation in Texas, and we went on the "Mommy financing plan", where we pay back my mother-in-law after she dies.   

My wife mentioned a DVD system at one point, but I'm not paying an extra $2000 for a system when we can get a portable at Best Buy for $300.


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## EricNoah (Jul 2, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> There was a billboard in KC that read something like a kid costing $564 a month.




For a sec, I read that as "a billboard in KFC..."   And thought, wow that's a strange place to get your statistics!


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## der_kluge (Jul 2, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> For a sec, I read that as "a billboard in KFC..."   And thought, wow that's a strange place to get your statistics!





Haha!  No, this was some billboard on the road in Kansas City. I think it was for some social services agency, or something, reminding people that shouldn't skimp on their children, or something like.


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## Rogue765 (Jul 2, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> An addendum to my previous post: I love my wife, I love her a lot. Yea, women are really expensive, but I wouldn't want to live life without her. So, it's worth it.
> 
> I have a daughter, too. So, she'll grow up to be really expensive. And according to our last sonogram, we're having a second daughter (contrary to an earlier sonogram which indicated that it was a boy), so I'm still holding out hope. Add in a female dog, and a female cat, and I'm just screwed.




der_kluge looking at sonogram: "We're having a boy. WOO HOO!!!"

nurse: "i'm sorry mr der_kluge, that's the umbilical cord."


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## cignus_pfaccari (Jul 3, 2005)

I occasionally think about buying a condo or something.

Then I realize that a place similar to my ex-GF's 1BR+den would cost $270k, and mortgage payments would eat me alive.

One of my friend's place is going condo, and it's fairly inexpensive.  Now, I see this as a sort of harbinger of doom, given that he lives in a craptastic hellhole, where the elevator won't go if you have more than four people in it, and people disable the security system all the time.  Sort of like how Joe Kennedy pulled out of the stock market a week before the Crash because he was getting stock tips from shoeshine boys.

Then I look at my $790/month rent for a studio three blocks from the Metro in a nice neighborhood, and think it's okay (seriously, it is, since I've had it for over 5 years now).  And then I go home to visit my parents, and as we're driving through Evansville, IN, I see 2BR apartments going for $400/month, and sigh.

Brad


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## VirgilCaine (Jul 3, 2005)

> I manage a computer lab for the Farm Service Agency in Saline County, Missouri.



You work for the government and wonder why everyone feels so entitled?



> Location, location, location.



Taxes, taxes, taxes.



> In the book Nickeled and Dimed the author, I forget her name, makes some very good points. One of the truly outrageous problems for the working poor is that they are in competition for the same real estate that the rich are. Of course, the rich always win that competition. Even in a neighborhood-size scale, many low-income (read affordable) areas are being cleared to make way for more profitable (expensive) developments. A large number of the working poor in urban areas actually get from day to day by renting motel rooms. The cost is astronomical, but they have to stay somewhere and there is no way to save up to get an affordable apartment. Just remember how hard the working poor have it when you start complaining about your own problems!




Of course, her solution is to raise the minimum wage, putting more people out of work...I mean helping them, right?

Remember that 30% tax figure before? 
Think how prices would look without those taxes, and without the taxes on businesses which screw around with prices even more than inflation does?

____________________________

As for me, I don't see how people are expected to afford things.
Most apartments in Charlotte, NC costing $500+ per month. At least, the ones advertised in the free apartment magazines, and the local daily and an independent weekly. More typical is $600.

Even assuming minimal utility use ($100), that's still $600. Add in $300 for food, and $1000 for car payment, car insurance, gas, and savings for repairs. That's $1900 for one person. 

Of course, saving is somewhat easy.
Getting three or four roommates to rent a three or four bedroom house for ~$1000 a month, sharing the costs and working to minmize utlities, that could save two hundred dollars or so.
And those exist in my area.


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## Dark Jezter (Jul 3, 2005)

> How do people afford to live?




They spend less than they make.

Yes, the concept really is that simple.  However, there are a _lot_ of people out there who simply can't abide by it; they just _have_ to have that new car, or motor boat, or home theater system, etc.  So they get those things, and then spend years trying to pull themselves out of debt.  I've seen it happen time and time again with friends and realatives.  I'm thankful that I have parents who taught me the importance of financial responsibility before I even started going to high school.


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## Old One (Jul 6, 2005)

Abstraction said:
			
		

> Even though I'm a guy, I hope to be a stay at home parent within a couple years. The one thing I want to point out in your analysis is that you seem to assume that a 1-income family with kids only needs one car? Not likely, these days.




A -

Again, all about expectations.  "Back in the old days", many families lived near neighborhood schools (within walking distance) and parents weren't expected to be the family shuttle service to the myriad of activities that many kids are involved in today.  If kids needed to get somewhere, they walked, rode their bikes or carpooled.

Modern suburbia (among other things) have changed this.  The neighborhood school no longer exists in many communities and forced busing programs have crippled it in others.  Families are reluctant (rightfully so) to let younger children walk or bike places because of the small legion of frequent-flier pedophiles that plague many communites and we pretty much have to get into our car to go places.

Surviving on a single auto is doable, if you have access to good local services and/or decent public transportation - but the _expectation_ in many American household's today is a car per driver.

~ OO


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## Arnwyn (Jul 6, 2005)

VirgilCaine said:
			
		

> Of course, her solution is to raise the minimum wage, putting more people out of work...I mean helping them, right?



Actually, economically speaking, neither situation is valuable.


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## Blue_Kryptonite (Jul 7, 2005)

Old One said:
			
		

> Surviving on a single auto is doable, if you have access to good local services and/or decent public transportation - but the _expectation_ in many American household's today is a car per driver.~ OO




That's our situation. I can't drive for medical reasons. My wife does all the driving, all the time.


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## Storminator (Jul 7, 2005)

For a little perspective:

http://www.globalrichlist.com/

PS


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## BigFreekinGoblinoid (Jul 7, 2005)

IamTheTest said:
			
		

> ... Id live just fine with a 3 bedroom, 2 bathroom home in a nice neighborhood and that certainly wouldnt cost 200k.




Choke*LOL* Sputter... 

Gah! 

NO 3/2 within 90 miles of my town under $500K ...


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