# EoM: Summoning/Conjuration. Why not Challenge Rating instead of Hit Dice?



## Great Cthulhu (Dec 13, 2002)

Mongoose uses Challenge Rating for its Demonologist PrC and it works great. CRs are ball park figures that take into account allot more than just listed Hit Dice does. Theres a big difference between an elephant and a balor.

So using CRs for these spell lists would seem like a good idea.


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## RangerWickett (Dec 13, 2002)

I'll wait for CZ to post before I tell him I told ya so.  

No, hit dice was a simpler way, overall.  I'll let CZ tell it from his P.O.V.


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## Cyberzombie (Dec 14, 2002)

We fought many a bloody fight over that.  And, actually, until I saw the final draft, I thought Ranger Wickett and CR had won.

RW wanted to go with CRs for the same reason you did.  I am very un-trusting of them, myself.  I threw the supposedly CR9 Bebilith at a 9th level party.  If I hadn't stripped it of about half its powers after the battle started, it would have been a Total Party Kill.

Maybe that CR is fixed in the errata.  I dunno.  I downloaded them, but I haven't even looked at them.  And I bet most people haven't even gotten that far.  I just don't trust published CR's.

BTW, Summon Outsider should have the same HD chart as Summon Elemental.


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## nharwell (Dec 15, 2002)

Did you use the same numbers for the CR version of the spell list? If not, would you mind posting the numbers you did use? I only use CRs for summoning-type spells.  While I won't argue that CR can be problematic, hit dice is a much worse indicator of power. There are vast disparities of power between monsters of similar hit dice and I've found CR to work better, even if it's not perfect. Using hit dice for summoning limits is akin to using Strength -- it does serve as an indicator of power in some circumstances; in most, however, it is not a particularly useful measurement.


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## Great Cthulhu (Dec 15, 2002)

I would like to see the Challenge Rating versions as well. Could you please post them?


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## Cyberzombie (Dec 25, 2002)

I'll get those in the FAQ so that people have a choice, since it seems to be about 50/50.  I'll have to look up the Bind list, but for summon, you can just use the table from Dragon 302:

Level:  CR
 1:       less than 1
 2:       1
 3:       2
 4:       3
 5:       4-5
 6:       6-7
 7:       8-9
 8:       10-11
 9:       12-13

edit: I hate trying to post tables on message boards.  Razzle frazza morgle bargle growf...


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## Great Cthulhu (Dec 26, 2002)

Thanks.

Looking at the table though I feel it might be a bit too much on the conservative side.

Is there anyway to enforce a Binding spell on a creature? If a Demon wants to stay on the Prime Material Plane what do you do than? The Binding spell lacks a way to punish a summoned creature that breaks the pact except for being forced to stay on the same plane.


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## Suldulin (Dec 26, 2002)

Great Cthulhu said:
			
		

> *Thanks.
> 
> Looking at the table though I feel it might be a bit too much on the conservative side.
> 
> Is there anyway to enforce a Binding spell on a creature? If a Demon wants to stay on the Prime Material Plane what do you do than? The Binding spell lacks a way to punish a summoned creature that breaks the pact except for being forced to stay on the same plane. *




Since they are physically on the same plane you can a) truly kill them, b) mentally torture them by playing manathons of telly tubbies and barney and then put them out of their misery


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## Cyberzombie (Dec 31, 2002)

Binding should have been called something more like Calling.  Binding implies control.  The spell list, however, does not give you any control.  If you don't have some way of controlling the creature on your own -- by spell or brute force -- you are in a world of hurt.

While Teletubbies and Barney would work, the lesser known "Sagwa the Chinese Siamese Cat" or "Cailou" (I'm not sure of the spelling on that one) would work even better.  You discover some true horrors on PBS when you have a 6 year old.  ~shudders~

However, once you *have* beaten them into submission, they should have to follow the letter of any agreement.  This will need some errata'ing, I think.

As for the conservative nature of the table -- you might be right.  I'll tinker with it.  That's just the "official" Core rules table.


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