# Converting Creatures from Other Campaign Settings



## Shade (Jul 1, 2008)

This thread continues the idea of “cooperative conversions”, converting a series of monsters from similar sources. For this thread, we will be focusing on monsters that first appeared in the assorted campaign settings not covered by other threads, such as Jakandor, Birthright, Ravenloft, etc.

What I will do is first post the creature’s original stats and flavor text. Then, I will post a basic outline of the things I think it needs, and then I will give you an opportunity to suggest stats and ideas on how powers and abilities should work. Then, I will add more to it and we will continue to discuss it until I feel it’s done and time to move on to the next. As we work on these creatures, they will be posted in this thread, and after 10 conversions are complete they will be added to the Creature Catalog. You may comment on monsters already finished, of course.


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2008)

*Silver Spider*

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Ruins
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: None
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: O, P
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
No. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 4+4
THACO: 17
No. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1d6 (x2)/1d2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Bite
SPECIAL DEFENSES: None
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L 6' long
MORALE: Champion (15)
XP VALUE: 420

Silver spiders appear as six-foot-long creatures apparently made of a highly reflective silvery metal. They have bulbous abdomens and thin, sleek legs. Charonti wizards created these creature ages ago, as non-lethal guardians and hunters. A few have survived to this day.

*Combat*: Fearsome fighters, the silver spider attacks with its two sharp forelegs inflicting 1d6 vs. Man-sized or smaller targets and 1d8 vs. Large targets. They can direct each leg to strike a different target.

This spider's bite is its strangest weapon. The spider bites first any foe that harms it, otherwise, biting spellcasters first. Its toxin causes any victim to save vs. Poison or his skin is transformed to the same silvery material as the spider. This process takes 1d10 rounds to complete. Victims encased with silver skin gain AC 2, but suffers an effect similar to paralysis. The victim's skin hardens and he can no longer move or breathe. While so encased, the character is preserved and needs no air or sustenance. Only blows that would hit AC 2 or forces that succeed against the victim's save vs. Breath Weapon will cause the character any harm.

The magical skin lasts for 24 hours, after which the victim's skin returns to normal in the same amount of time it took to transform. The victim may be hungry and thirsty, but up to 1d8 points of damage are healed. The victim's hair and eyes retain the silvery sheen. No amount of washing removes the sheen and no illusions will cover the gleam. Forever are the victim's hair and eyes silver.

The silver spider's webbing is also of the same silvery metal, and is as strong as steel. While it is not used in combat against its foes, the webbing is used to restrain victims who've been transformed. Binding helpless victims may be a natural instinctive reaction on the part of the spider or it may make the victim easier to move. More than one person has found himself bound in metal strands as strong as steel. Only a successful Bend Bars/Lift Gates roll allows a bound victim to escape.

*Habitat/Society*: As a solitary, magical creature, silver spiders have no society.

After a silver spider's bite has transformed its victim, he or she is wrapped securely in the spider's webbing and is taken to some designated storage area (a jail or holding facility) where Charonti authorities later handle the trespassers. With the Charonti of the ruins all dead, there's no one to interrogate the spider's prisoners, and as most beings possess not enough strength to escape, most perish from dehydration or starvation.

*Ecology*: As artificial creatures, silver spiders have no place in the cycles of life and death in the natural world. Enterprising beings could, however, make good use of the spider and its byproducts if such can be gained safely:
The spider's webbing, if gathered carefully, can be wound and corded to form a remarkably thin, but amazingly strong wire. Such wire is useful in making jewelry. If enough web is used, several wires can be twisted into a small cable stronger than any rope.
The spider's weapon-like forelegs can be used as improvised weapons (with a -1 attack penalty due to the lack of a proper hilt). If a hilt is added, a foreleg functions as short sword. The forelegs of a silver spider qualify as silver weapons for determining damage against foes not harmed by normal weapons, such as lycanthropes.

Originally appeared in Jakandor, Land of Legend (1998).


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 2, 2008)

Sounds like the bite inflicts temporal stasis, with some flavor changes.


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## Big Mac (Jul 2, 2008)

Shade said:


> This thread continues the idea of “cooperative conversions”, converting a series of monsters from similar sources. For this thread, we will be focusing on monsters that first appeared in the assorted campaign settings not covered by other threads, such as Jakandor, Birthright, Ravenloft, etc.




"etc" = ?  



Shade said:


> Originally appeared in Jakandor, Land of Legend (1998).




Do you think it is worth going through *all* the Jakandor monsters before doing another campaign setting? Or should we mix and match?

I'll read the actual monster after this post and come back and make some comments.



Shade said:


> Silver spiders appear as six-foot-long creatures apparently made of a highly reflective silvery metal. They have bulbous abdomens and thin, sleek legs. Charonti wizards created these creature ages ago, as non-lethal guardians and hunters. A few have survived to this day.




This sounds like it is mostly flavor, but does the fact that they were created make them magical beasts?



Shade said:


> *Combat*: Fearsome fighters, the silver spider attacks with its two sharp forelegs inflicting 1d6 vs. Man-sized or smaller targets and 1d8 vs. Large targets. They can direct each leg to strike a different target.




How should the sharp legs be described? Should they be put down as claws? The description below seems to suggest they work like sword blades.



Shade said:


> This spider's bite is its strangest weapon. The spider bites first any foe that harms it, otherwise, biting spellcasters first. Its toxin causes any victim to save vs. Poison or his skin is transformed to the same silvery material as the spider. This process takes 1d10 rounds to complete. Victims encased with silver skin gain AC 2, but suffers an effect similar to paralysis. The victim's skin hardens and he can no longer move or breathe. While so encased, the character is preserved and needs no air or sustenance. Only blows that would hit AC 2 or forces that succeed against the victim's save vs. Breath Weapon will cause the character any harm.




Demiurge is right about this. The bite works just like a magic spell.

If the process is going to take 1d10 rounds should the AC change in stages?

Would *Magical Bite (Sp)* be a suitable name, or does it need to be more descriptive?

I'm not sure exactly how the silver spider can target a spellcaster first. Should they have some sort of Detect Spellcaster ability?



Shade said:


> The magical skin lasts for 24 hours, after which the victim's skin returns to normal in the same amount of time it took to transform. The victim may be hungry and thirsty, but up to 1d8 points of damage are healed. The victim's hair and eyes retain the silvery sheen. No amount of washing removes the sheen and no illusions will cover the gleam. Forever are the victim's hair and eyes silver.




I think the "return" time is irrelivant. It isn't going to have any impact on combat (like the "transformation" time does). I've seen an ability that heals a creature that returns to its own form. I thought it was polymorph, but I can't find it at the moment.



Shade said:


> The silver spider's webbing is also of the same silvery metal, and is as strong as steel. While it is not used in combat against its foes, the webbing is used to restrain victims who've been transformed.




I can't see anywhere where it says how the webbing is "used in combat".



Shade said:


> Binding helpless victims may be a natural instinctive reaction on the part of the spider or it may make the victim easier to move.




I don't think that needs to be explained. I'd expect any spider to do that.



Shade said:


> More than one person has found himself bound in metal strands as strong as steel. Only a successful Bend Bars/Lift Gates roll allows a bound victim to escape.




That needs some crunchy bits. How about *Steel Webbing (Ex)* as a name?



Shade said:


> *Habitat/Society*: As a solitary, magical creature, silver spiders have no society.




This conflicts with the fact that 1-4 appear.

Unless we say that they are sometimes found in small groups, but ignore each other and don't work as a team. Personally, I'd make it a solitary creature.



Shade said:


> After a silver spider's bite has transformed its victim, he or she is wrapped securely in the spider's webbing and is taken to some designated storage area (a jail or holding facility) where Charonti authorities later handle the trespassers. With the Charonti of the ruins all dead, there's no one to interrogate the spider's prisoners, and as most beings possess not enough strength to escape, most perish from dehydration or starvation.




Does the spider do this? I think that a spider should wrap its victim in webbing and take them to a lair...unless they are a tame version.



Shade said:


> *Ecology*: As artificial creatures, silver spiders have no place in the cycles of life and death in the natural world. Enterprising beings could, however, make good use of the spider and its byproducts if such can be gained safely:






They don't seem to eat. This sounds like they are changed into constructs.



Shade said:


> [*]The spider's webbing, if gathered carefully, can be wound and corded to form a remarkably thin, but amazingly strong wire. Such wire is useful in making jewelry. If enough web is used, several wires can be twisted into a small cable stronger than any rope.




Should this be folded into treasure? Or added to the information about rescuing a person who has been tied in webbing?



Shade said:


> [*]The spider's weapon-like forelegs can be used as improvised weapons (with a -1 attack penalty due to the lack of a proper hilt). If a hilt is added, a foreleg functions as short sword. The forelegs of a silver spider qualify as silver weapons for determining damage against foes not harmed by normal weapons, such as lycanthropes.




Lucky you did that silver silatic for me recently:
_"A silver silatic's natural attacks are treated as silver weapons for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction."_

BTW: I couldn't see a silver spider on that cover shot, so I looked up a larger shot of Jakandor, Land of Legend


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## freyar (Jul 2, 2008)

Big Mac said:


> This sounds like it is mostly flavor, but does the fact that they were created make them magical beasts?



That, or constructs, like you also mentioned.  I'm leaning toward magical beasts.  Once we pick a type, should we get down to abilities?



> How should the sharp legs be described? Should they be put down as claws? The description below seems to suggest they work like sword blades.



I think claws will work, with the fact that they count as silver for overcoming DR.  (Like the silatic; this is a somewhat common ability.)



> Demiurge is right about this. The bite works just like a magic spell.
> 
> If the process is going to take 1d10 rounds should the AC change in stages?
> 
> Would *Magical Bite (Sp)* be a suitable name, or does it need to be more descriptive?




One or two of the other spider-creatures we converted maybe last fall also had a slow paralysis type of poison.  Maybe I'll look for that.  Should victims just gain +8 natural armor?  (And be paralyzed, of course.)


> I'm not sure exactly how the silver spider can target a spellcaster first. Should they have some sort of Detect Spellcaster ability?



Good point, as they're not really smart enough to know the difference between fighting and casting.


> I think the "return" time is irrelivant. It isn't going to have any impact on combat (like the "transformation" time does). I've seen an ability that heals a creature that returns to its own form. I thought it was polymorph, but I can't find it at the moment.



Agreed.



> I can't see anywhere where it says how the webbing is "used in combat".
> ...
> That needs some crunchy bits. How about *Steel Webbing (Ex)* as a name?



Probably like the web spell or more likely like the monstrous spider's web ability with boosted DCs for Escape Artist and especially the Str check.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Sounds like the bite inflicts temporal stasis, with some flavor changes.




Agreed.



Big Mac said:


> "etc" = ?




If it's from a specific campaign setting, and it doesn't have another thread, it's fair game.  



Big Mac said:


> Do you think it is worth going through *all* the Jakandor monsters before doing another campaign setting? Or should we mix and match?




No preference, really.  I already asked Echohawk for the stats (and received them) for the remaining Jakandor monsters, so they'll probably be tackled among the first.



Big Mac said:


> This sounds like it is mostly flavor, but does the fact that they were created make them magical beasts?




It screams "magical beast" to me.  



Big Mac said:


> How should the sharp legs be described? Should they be put down as claws? The description below seems to suggest they work like sword blades.




The similar sword spider simply lists "legs" on the attack lines.



Big Mac said:


> If the process is going to take 1d10 rounds should the AC change in stages?




Possibly.



Big Mac said:


> Would *Magical Bite (Sp)* be a suitable name, or does it need to be more descriptive?




I'd prefer something more descriptive.  



Big Mac said:


> I'm not sure exactly how the silver spider can target a spellcaster first. Should they have some sort of Detect Spellcaster ability?




Possibly, or simply observe active spellcasting.



Big Mac said:


> Webbing stuff




Let's revisit the webbing later.



Big Mac said:


> This conflicts with the fact that 1-4 appear.
> 
> Unless we say that they are sometimes found in small groups, but ignore each other and don't work as a team. Personally, I'd make it a solitary creature.




When this occurs (as it often does), I generally suggest we go with Solitary or group. 



Big Mac said:


> They don't seem to eat. This sounds like they are changed into constructs.




Not necessarily.  We'll just need to note it in the text.




Big Mac said:


> BTW: I couldn't see a silver spider on that cover shot, so I looked up a larger shot of Jakandor, Land of Legend




I just posted the cover to avoid the automatic threadmerging feature.  Adding an attachments is a way to trick it.  Sorry for the confusion.



freyar said:


> That, or constructs, like you also mentioned.  I'm leaning toward magical beasts.  Once we pick a type, should we get down to abilities?




Absolutely!

First we'll need to decide on Medium or Large.  It says L (6') so it could go either way.   I vote for Large.

Ability scores of similar creatures:

Phase Spider (L): Str 17, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 10
Sword Spider (L): Str 18, Dex 10, Con 14, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 3
Medium Monstrous Spider: Str 11, Dex 17, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
Large Monstrous Spider: Str 15, Dex 17, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
Medium Argent Spider: Str 13, Dex 16, Con 14, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 6
Large Argent Spider: Str 21, Dex 14, Con 14, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 6


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 3, 2008)

Agreed to Large Magical Beast. The ability scores should be closer to a phase spider than a sword spider, physically; these guys have a good AC and are bloody fast, so I think a good Dex makes sense.


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

Hmm, what about Str 16, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 1, Wis 13, Cha 10?  Not quite as strong as the phase spider, maybe.

Shade, are these really smart enough to understand when someone's spellcasting?  I can understand that constructs have that "programmed in" but don't get it here.


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Good point on the low intellect.  We can give them a special detect ability, then.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 4, 2008)

Arcane sight, perhaps?


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## freyar (Jul 4, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Arcane sight, perhaps?



Sounds right.  Didn't we give something like that to a critter recently?  Maybe it was one of the constructs.  Anyone remember?

Also, I can't remember what it was that got the slow paralysis ability recently.  Anyone remember that?


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## Big Mac (Jul 5, 2008)

I've been busy for a bit, but everything everyone has done seems good.



demiurge1138 said:


> Arcane sight, perhaps?




That is good. Should we cut it down, so they only see aura's of spellcasters? Then we could instinctively make them go for anyone who "glows" and they wouldn't run after magic swords.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2008)

Big Mac said:


> That is good. Should we cut it down, so they only see aura's of spellcasters? Then we could instinctively make them go for anyone who "glows" and they wouldn't run after magic swords.




Yeah, that's a good idea.  They really wouldn't benefit from detecting other forms of magic.

There's also this:

Dweomersight (Su): A balhannoth can sense the presence and position of magic auras within 120 feet of itself, and knows the strength and school of each one. It can pinpoint the location of any creature with ongoing spells cast on it, carrying magic items, or otherwise using magic, and it can notice anything within the area of a magic effect (including its own dimensional lock aura). This otherwise functions like blindsense.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2008)

Attempting a few of the abilities...

Silver Toxin (Ex):  A victim bitten by a silver spider must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or find its skin transformed into the same silvery matter as the spider.  The victim is slowed (as the spell) for 1d10 rounds, but gains a +8 bonus to its natural armor.  At the end of this duration, the creature is fully encased.

Once fully encased, the creature retains the natural armor bonus and is considered unconscious and needs no air or sustenance.  It remains in this state for 24 hours, after which its skin reverts back to normal and it receives natural healing as if it had slept for an entire night.  The victim's hair and eyes retain the silvery sheen permanently, and nothing short of a limited wish, wish, or miracle can restore their original appearance.

The transformation process can be slowed or halted before the creature is completely encased by a delay poison, neutralize poison, or similar magic. The save DC is Constitution-based. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws.

Silver Web (Ex):  A silver spider can throw a web up to eight times per day. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a maximum range of 50 feet, with a range increment of 10 feet, and is effective against targets up to one size category larger than the spider.   The web anchors the target in place, allowing no movement.

An entangled creature can escape with a successful DC x Escape Artist check or burst the web with a successful DC x Strength check. The check DCs are Strength-based and includes a +4 racial bonus. The web has 15 hit points and hardness 10, and takes double damage from fire.

A silver spider can create sheets of sticky webbing up to 30 feet square. It usually positions these sheets to snare flying creatures but can also try to trap prey on the ground. Approaching creatures must succeed on a DC 20 Spot check to notice a web; otherwise they stumble into it and become trapped as though by a successful web attack. Each 5-foot-square section has 15 hit points and damage reduction 5/-.

A silver spider can move across its own sheet web at its climb speed and can determine the exact location of any creature touching the web.


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## Big Mac (Jul 13, 2008)

Shade said:


> There's also this:
> 
> Dweomersight (Su): A balhannoth can sense the presence and position of magic auras within 120 feet of itself, and knows the strength and school of each one. It can pinpoint the location of any creature with ongoing spells cast on it, carrying magic items, or otherwise using magic, and it can notice anything within the area of a magic effect (including its own dimensional lock aura). This otherwise functions like blindsense.




Hmm. If the Silver Spider is only supposed to detect spellcasters, you might have to make a modified Dweomersight that detects uncast spells. A sense that picks up the magical version of "potential energy".



Shade said:


> Attempting a few of the abilities...
> 
> Silver Toxin (Ex):  <snip>
> 
> Silver Web (Ex):  <snip>




Both of these are good. The Silver Toxin reminds me of the Softwood spell from Concordance of Arcane Space (AD&D Adventures in Space boxed set)


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2008)

If we fall back to the earlier suggestion of continuous arcane sight, that outta take care of the "innate spellcaster with no apparent effects" issue.


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## freyar (Jul 14, 2008)

Yeah, let's go with arcane sight.  I also like the toxin and web.


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2008)

Updated.

Let's fill in some X's:

Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb x ft.?

Environment: x

Organization: Solitary or x (2-4)

Advancement: x

A silver spider is x feet long and weighs x pounds. 

Silver spiders do not speak, but understand x. (Charonti?)


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 15, 2008)

Climb speed 20ft.

Any land or underground

Solitary or nest (2-4)


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2008)

5-10HD (Large), 11-15 HD (Huge)

9 ft long and 100 lb?

Charonti.


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 7 ranks

Feats: 2

Do we want to give them any other spider skill bonuses?  How about tremorsense (particularly in web)?

Treasure similar to other spiders?

What shall we do with this?



> The spider's webbing, if gathered carefully, can be wound and corded to form a remarkably thin, but amazingly strong wire. Such wire is useful in making jewelry. If enough web is used, several wires can be twisted into a small cable stronger than any rope.
> 
> The spider's weapon-like forelegs can be used as improvised weapons (with a -1 attack penalty due to the lack of a proper hilt). If a hilt is added, a foreleg functions as short sword. The forelegs of a silver spider qualify as silver weapons for determining damage against foes not harmed by normal weapons, such as lycanthropes.


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## Big Mac (Jul 16, 2008)

Shade said:


> Do we want to give them any other spider skill bonuses?  How about tremorsense (particularly in web)?




Do all spiders get tremorsense? If so give it to these guys. If only some spiders get tremorsense then we need to work out why some do and some don't.



Shade said:


> Treasure similar to other spiders?
> 
> What shall we do with this?
> 
> ...




I think the webbing and forlegs should be built into the spider's treasure. Webbing could probably be gathered without killing the spider (so someone could "farm" these spiders) but the legs can only be harvested by killing it.

I don't personally see how the leg could work exactly like a short sword (as the very end of the leg can't be as sharp as a sword point). Legs also have joints in them. I think that we should say that the very last joint of the leg can be used by anyone who has the ability to use a short sword.

I'm guessing that someone needs to make some sort of skill check to get the end of the leg off without damaging it (or cutting their fingers trying).


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2008)

Yep, all monstrous spiders appear to get tremorsense.

Maybe a Heal check to harvest the blades, and a Craft check to fashion them into a sword?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 16, 2008)

That sounds reasonable.


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2008)

Yup, agreed.  Maybe DC 20ish on the Heal check and 15ish on the Craft check?  I forget if there is a set of guidelines for figuring that out.


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2008)

Let's go with 15 for both since they aren't incredibly high level encounters.

Updated.

We have 7 skill ranks and 2 feats to allocate.

Arcane Sight (Su): Silver spiders continuously use arcane sight as the spell (caster level xth).

CR 3?  They are slightly deadlier than Large monstrous spiders at CR 2.


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2008)

Max Spot.  Stealthy and Alertness?

CL 4?  CR 3 works.


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2008)

Let's swap Stealthy for Ability Focus (silver toxin), since the DC isn't very impressive for one of their key abilities.

Updated.  Anything left?


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## freyar (Jul 17, 2008)

Agreed, and it looks good.


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2008)

*Arid Bloodthorn*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Arid land
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Patch
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Semi (2-4)
TREASURE: Incidental
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
No. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 4/2
MOVEMENT: 1
HIT DICE: 3-8
THAC0: 15
No. OF ATITACKS: 1 per Hit Die
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1d6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Blood drain
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Thorns
MAGIC RESISTANCE: None
SIZE: L (10' vines)
MORALE: Fearless (19)
XP VALUE: 3 HD: 175, 4 HD: 270, 5 HD: 420, 6 HD: 650, 7 HD: 975, 8 HD: 1,400

This carnivorous plant of jakandor differs from the lush variety common to other AD&D worlds. These bloodthorns are tough, wiry plants that grow in thick, briar-like patches on the arid land of jakandor. It has a dull black bark, and its vines appear dry and desiccated. The base has several clumps of small-bladed leaves and lush, red berries.

While a bloodthorn appears innocuous, close examination will detect long, dangerous thorns lying flat against the vines. These spines can be raised quickly to impale prey or warn predators away.

Combat: When a warm-blooded creature approaches, the plant abandons its innocuous pose and lashes out at prey. The plant can strike with 3 to 8 long, thornstudded vines. The thorns extend to their full 3-inch length, and each tendril becomes a spiny lash. If any vine hits by 4 or more over the attack number needed to hit, it wraps around its prey and embeds its thorns in the victim's flesh. The impaled victim is drained of blood through the hollow thorns (Dmg 1d6). This draining is very painful and victims must make a successful System Shock roll or pass out. The vine drains blood each round until the victim dies or breaks free.

The bloodthorn is not particularly strong, but its vines are tough, and the thorns tend to twine when the vine wraps a victim's body. Any creature trying to pull free has to succeed at a bend bars/lift gates roll. The whole plant usually doesn't weight more than 200 or 250 pounds, so a strong victim might end up dragging the whole bloodthorn patch after him if he fails to pull himself free.

A slashing weapon (Type S) is needed to cut the vine. Each vine has AC 4, and requires 8 points of damage to sever. The thorns of a severed vine still drain blood until the whole vine is carefully detached from a victim - a process that requires one full round. The blood thorn's vulnerable spot is its dense root-bulb or base hidden beneath the other thorny vines. It's hard to reach and is AC 2.

The bloodthorn attacks until it or its prey is dead. The plant retreats from flame, and any stem that is seared releases its victim and curls back up around the base.

Habitat/Society: Unless one knows what to look for, it's easy to be surprised by this ordinary looking briar. One giveaway is the fact that this vine grows in places where other plants can't survive. In the barren places it calls home, the bloodthorn often grows in patches of several plants. These can be especially dangerous, since a person could find herself attached to several plants each draining her dry.

Ecology: The blood thorn derives its sustenance from the blood of small animals and birds. The plant's berries act as a lure for hungry wayfarers, but if someone perseveres and manages to collect some of the bloodthorn's fruit, it's barely worth the trouble - the berries are bitter.

Originally appeared in Jakandor, Land of Legend (1998).


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## freyar (Jul 18, 2008)

Want to start by modifying the regular bloodthorn (either CC or Fiend Folio version)?


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2008)

freyar said:


> Want to start by modifying the regular bloodthorn (either CC or Fiend Folio version)?




Sure!  Both those versions are mindless, but this was Semi- (2-4).  Do we want to make this one mindless, or retain the semi-intelligence?


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## Big Mac (Jul 22, 2008)

Shade said:


> Sure!  Both those versions are mindless, but this was Semi- (2-4).  Do we want to make this one mindless, or retain the semi-intelligence?




Hmm. Was the old school version of the other bloodthorn mindless or semi-intelligence? If one drops down, I can understand the other dropping down.

But if there was originally an intelligence divide between the two bloodthorn types then maybe that should continue. (Maybe this plant is meant to be the Steven Hawking of the bloodthorn world!  )


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2008)

I'm with Big Mac here; it really depends on the older version of the regular bloodthorn.  (Echohawk, can you help us out here?)

For reference, stats:
CC bloodthorn: 5HD, CR 5; Str 14, Dex 12, Con 15, Int ---, Wis 11, Cha 9
FF bloodthorn: 3HD, CR 3; Str 20, Dex 17, Con 19, Int ---, Wis 12, Cha 2


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## Echohawk (Jul 23, 2008)

freyar said:


> I'm with Big Mac here; it really depends on the older version of the regular bloodthorn.  (Echohawk, can you help us out here?)




Bloodthorn
Monster Manual II: Intelligence = Non-
Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II: Intelligence = Semi- (2-4)
Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two: Intelligence = Non (0)


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## Big Mac (Jul 23, 2008)

Echohawk said:


> Bloodthorn
> Monster Manual II: Intelligence = Non-
> Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II: Intelligence = Semi- (2-4)
> Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two: Intelligence = Non (0)




Weird. 

I suppose that the Jakandor bloodthorn might have been taken from Planescape. The Mighty Grubbmeister (Jeff Grubb) worked on both, so he might have copied it over.

Is there anything in the blurb of the Planescape version to indicate why they bumped up the intellegence over the MC Annual Volume Two version? Is it "awakened" for example?

If we can find a valid reason for that we could use the same justification here and keep the stats up. If the stats were just shuffled for no reason, we could push this one back down to "standardise" the beastie.

BTW: I don't see a conversion of the Planescape bloodthorn in your index. Seeing as they have the same root, do you think it is worth churning that one out when we finish this creature?

Maybe we could push that one to the head of the queue in the Converting Planescape monsters thread (and do it as soon as the giant sea horse thingy is done).


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## Echohawk (Jul 23, 2008)

There doesn't appear to be too much in common between the MMII, MCA2 and Planescape versions of the bloodthorn. It almost seems as if the Planescape and MCA2 versions were each developed separately, based on the original in the MMII.

However, Jakandor's arid bloodthorn is clearly based on the Planescape version. It shares much of the descriptive text, for one thing. It may indeed make sense to develop updates of the Planescape and Jakandor versions of the bloodthorn at the same time.


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2008)

Is the MMII bloodthorn also extraplanar?  The one in the 3e FF is, so I wonder if it's supposed to be the Planescape one.


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## Echohawk (Jul 23, 2008)

freyar said:


> Is the MMII bloodthorn also extraplanar?



No.







freyar said:


> The one in the 3e FF is, so I wonder if it's supposed to be the Planescape one.



Yes, I think so.


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2008)

Hmm, so we're not actually getting much guidance on how intelligent to make this plant.  I'm leaning toward Int 2 just because, but I could be persuaded either way.


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## Big Mac (Jul 25, 2008)

I could be pursuaded either way too. I was just hoping their would be a clue in the blurb.


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## Shade (Jul 29, 2008)

Echohawk said:


> However, Jakandor's arid bloodthorn is clearly based on the Planescape version. It shares much of the descriptive text, for one thing. It may indeed make sense to develop updates of the Planescape and Jakandor versions of the bloodthorn at the same time.




Agreed.  Int 2 then?


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2008)

Int 2 sounds good.  Probably Wis 11-12, Cha 9-10, roughly like the CC bloodthorn.  How many HD do we want to start this thing with?  Might make some difference in physical stats.


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## Big Mac (Jul 31, 2008)

freyar said:


> Int 2 sounds good.  Probably Wis 11-12, Cha 9-10, roughly like the CC bloodthorn.  How many HD do we want to start this thing with?  Might make some difference in physical stats.




I think the other conversions are a tiny bit limiting for a monster that originally had 3-8 HD in 2nd edition. I think the "1 attack per HD" thing is probably one of the most distinctive abilities of this plant.

Can't we treat this a bit like a hydra and do 6 sets of stats (3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 HD)? The extra HD will boost the BAB of all the attacks, but we can also add in more skills/feats as we go along.

Improved Critical, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Stunning Fist, Toughness, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Ability Focus (on its blood draining or the blood draining pain), Improved Natural Armor and Improved Natural Attack are all possible feats to add in there somewhere along the way.

A variety of stats can also mean that we can make the high HD plants into "adults" and the low HD plants into "children" (or "seedlings").

I infer from the original blurb that the collective noun for Arid Bloodthorns is a patch. I can see a patch of arid bloodthorns being a 7 or 8 HD plant surrounded by a circle of 3 or 4 HD plants. I wouldn't especially make a patch of plants co-operative. I'd have the seedling plants grow at roughly equal distances from the parent plant. The instinctive behavior should set off all the attacks of the plants in a patch at round about the same time. In fact as the child plants grow (and gain more attacks) they should become more effective at fully draining victims than the parent plant. Eventually, they should grab the vast majority of the food and the parent plant should normally starve to death before it can advance into a 9 HD plant. (I think that 2nd generation patches should expand into larger circles with a barren area in the middle. A really large patch could then "repopulate" that barren area with a low HD plant.


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## freyar (Jul 31, 2008)

Treating these like a hydra is an interesting idea.  We had something similar with one attack per HD in the gravewatcher conversion earlier this year, I think, too.  I think the alternative is noting that these have some unique advancement (ie, extra attacks).


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## Shade (Jul 31, 2008)

Yeah, the multiple stat block approach might work well in this case.


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## Big Mac (Aug 2, 2008)

Shade said:


> Yeah, the multiple stat block approach might work well in this case.




How about starting with the 3HD beastie and adding extra HD, skills and feats (to generate the other versions) after the monster is finished?


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## freyar (Aug 2, 2008)

Big Mac said:


> How about starting with the 3HD beastie and adding extra HD, skills and feats (to generate the other versions) after the monster is finished?



I think that's exactly the right approach.  Also, typically when there are monsters like this in the SRD, there's some nonstandard ability score improvement along with the HD advancement.

For 3HD version, how about stats of Str 14, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 9?  These are similar to the CC version (which has 5HD).


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## Big Mac (Aug 3, 2008)

freyar said:


> I think that's exactly the right approach.  Also, typically when there are monsters like this in the SRD, there's some nonstandard ability score improvement along with the HD advancement.




I've noticed some monsters that break the rules. I can't recall any of them now, but have seen discussions about them over at the forums attached to the Hypertext d20 SRD.



freyar said:


> For 3HD version, how about stats of Str 14, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 9?  These are similar to the CC version (which has 5HD).




Personally, I'd be happy to use those stats (along with the standard stat bumps for increased levels) for *all* of the versions. I think this needs several stats, but I don't want to slow the conversion down any more than necessary.


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2008)

One of the most common applications I've seen is to keep the Dex constant (rather than dropping) with increased size, which often makes perfect sense.

So we'll start with 3 HD and Str 14, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 9.

Added to Homebrews using these stats and the blood drain and improved grab abilities from the FF bloodthorn as placeholders.


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## freyar (Aug 4, 2008)

I think those abilities work pretty well.  However, for 3HD, we need 3 tendrils already.


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## Big Mac (Aug 4, 2008)

freyar said:


> I think those abilities work pretty well.  However, for 3HD, we need 3 tendrils already.




He's right. It should say something like this:

Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+8
Attack: 3 tendrils +8 melee (1d6+3)
Full Attack: 3 tendrils +8 melee (1d6+3)​
I also think the combat section needs to copy *some*, but not all, of the things from the hydra:



			
				Hydra said:
			
		

> *Combat*
> Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round.
> 
> A hydra can be killed either by severing all its heads or by slaying its body. To sever a head, an opponent must make a successful sunder attempt with a slashing weapon. (The player should declare where the attack is aimed before making the attack roll.) Making a sunder attempt provokes an attack of opportunity unless the foe has the Improved Sunder feat. An opponent can strike at a hydra’s heads from any position in which he could strike at the hydra itself, because the hydra’s head writhe and whip about in combat. An opponent can ready an action to attempt to sunder a hydra’s head when the creature bites at him. Each of a hydra’s heads has hit points equal to the creature’s full normal hit point total, divided by its original number of heads. Losing a head deals damage to the body equal to half the head’s full normal hit points. A natural reflex seals the neck shut to prevent further blood loss. A hydra can no longer attack with a severed head but takes no other penalties.
> ...




The first sentence/paragraph seems to work OK:

Arid bloodthorns can attack with all their tendrils at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round.​
Do we want to allow people to sunder the tendrils? That would give us something a bit like this:

An arid bloodthorn can be killed either by severing all its tendrils or by slaying its body. To sever a tendrils, an opponent must make a successful sunder attempt with a slashing weapon. (The player should declare where the attack is aimed before making the attack roll.) Making a sunder attempt provokes an attack of opportunity unless the foe has the Improved Sunder feat. An opponent can strike at an arid bloodthorn’s tendrils from any position in which he could strike at the arid bloodthorn itself, because the arid bloodthorn’s tendrils writhe and whip about in combat. An opponent can ready an action to attempt to sunder a arid bloodthorn’s tendril when the creature lashes out at him. Each of a arid bloodthorn’s tendrils has hit points equal to the creature’s full normal hit point total, divided by its original number of tendrils. Losing a tendril deals damage to the body equal to half the tendril’s full normal hit points. A natural reflex seals the vine shut_ to prevent further sap loss_. A arid bloodthorn can no longer attack with a severed tendrils but takes no other penalties.​
That second to last sentence might work better as: "A natural reflex seals the vine shut."

The stuff about growing new heads is not appropriate, but if a hydra looses "bonus" heads over time an arid bloodthorn should regain lost tendrils over time. I'd suggest something like this:

Each time a tendril is severed, a new tendril springs from the stump in 1d4 days. To prevent a severed head from growing back, at least 5 points of fire or acid damage must be dealt to the stump (a touch attack to hit) before the new tendril appears. A flaming weapon (or similar effect) deals its energy damage to the stump in the same blow in which a tendril is severed. Fire or acid damage from an area effect may burn multiple stumps in addition to dealing damage to the arid bloodthorn’s body. An arid bloodthorn does not die from losing its tendrils until all its tendrils have been cut off and the stumps seared by fire or acid.​
The stuff about fast healing is not appropriate, but if you can sunder the tendrils you need part of the next paragraph:

An arid bloodthorn’s body can be slain just like any other creature’s. Any attack that is not (or cannot be) an attempt to sunder a tendril affects the body.​
The last paragraph is almost totally as is:

Targeted magical effects cannot sever a arid bloodthorn’s tendrils (and thus must be directed at the body) unless they deal slashing damage and could be used to make sunder attempts.​
I think that is mostly all you need for these creatures, but you need some sort of ability that makes them automatically grapple on a criticle hit: ("If any vine hits by 4 or more over the attack number needed to hit, it wraps around its prey and embeds its thorns in the victim's flesh.")

You also need to make amputated tendrils continue to grapple and inflict damage until removed: ("The thorns of a severed vine still drain blood until the whole vine is carefully detached from a victim - a process that requires one full round.")

The original creature had two ACs. That doesn't seem to fit into 3rd edition so well. Does anyone know of some sort of parry ability that would allow it to protect its body but not its tendrils?


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2008)

Big Mac said:


> Arid bloodthorns can attack with all their tendrils at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round.​



Agreed, which would give them the 3 tendrils in the regular attack.



> Do we want to allow people to sunder the tendrils? That would give us something a bit like this:
> 
> An arid bloodthorn can be killed either by severing all its tendrils or by slaying its body. To sever a tendrils, an opponent must make a successful sunder attempt with a slashing weapon. (The player should declare where the attack is aimed before making the attack roll.) Making a sunder attempt provokes an attack of opportunity unless the foe has the Improved Sunder feat. An opponent can strike at an arid bloodthorn’s tendrils from any position in which he could strike at the arid bloodthorn itself, because the arid bloodthorn’s tendrils writhe and whip about in combat. An opponent can ready an action to attempt to sunder a arid bloodthorn’s tendril when the creature lashes out at him. Each of a arid bloodthorn’s tendrils has hit points equal to the creature’s full normal hit point total, divided by its original number of tendrils. Losing a tendril deals damage to the body equal to half the tendril’s full normal hit points. A natural reflex seals the vine shut_ to prevent further sap loss_. A arid bloodthorn can no longer attack with a severed tendrils but takes no other penalties.​
> That second to last sentence might work better as: "A natural reflex seals the vine shut."




I like the idea of sundering tendrils.  I'd possibly reduce the hp/tendril a little, since I imagine these are kind of thin.  I guess about 6hp each is ok, though.



> The stuff about growing new heads is not appropriate, but if a hydra looses "bonus" heads over time an arid bloodthorn should regain lost tendrils over time. I'd suggest something like this:
> 
> Each time a tendril is severed, a new tendril springs from the stump in 1d4 days. To prevent a severed head from growing back, at least 5 points of fire or acid damage must be dealt to the stump (a touch attack to hit) before the new tendril appears. A flaming weapon (or similar effect) deals its energy damage to the stump in the same blow in which a tendril is severed. Fire or acid damage from an area effect may burn multiple stumps in addition to dealing damage to the arid bloodthorn’s body. An arid bloodthorn does not die from losing its tendrils until all its tendrils have been cut off and the stumps seared by fire or acid.​



I don't think we need the fire/acid damage thing, since the tendrils would not be growing back during a single combat (unlike hydra heads).  I also don't think that sundering all the tendrils should kill the bloodthorn.



> The stuff about fast healing is not appropriate, but if you can sunder the tendrils you need part of the next paragraph:
> 
> An arid bloodthorn’s body can be slain just like any other creature’s. Any attack that is not (or cannot be) an attempt to sunder a tendril affects the body.​



Not sure we need the first sentence, since we wouldn't have the hydra's "sundered death" mechanic.



> The last paragraph is almost totally as is:
> 
> Targeted magical effects cannot sever a arid bloodthorn’s tendrils (and thus must be directed at the body) unless they deal slashing damage and could be used to make sunder attempts.​



Agreed.



> I think that is mostly all you need for these creatures, but you need some sort of ability that makes them automatically grapple on a criticle hit: ("If any vine hits by 4 or more over the attack number needed to hit, it wraps around its prey and embeds its thorns in the victim's flesh.")



I think the usual Improved Grab converts the intent of this pretty well; now it requires a grapple check but only needs to hit (not by 4 or more over).


> You also need to make amputated tendrils continue to grapple and inflict damage until removed: ("The thorns of a severed vine still drain blood until the whole vine is carefully detached from a victim - a process that requires one full round.")



Sure, we could add that the the 2nd paragraph you indented above.  In addition, or instead, depending on what we think makes sense, we can add that removing the thorns requires a DC X Heal check or deals X hp damage.  That's a pretty common mechanic.


> The original creature had two ACs. That doesn't seem to fit into 3rd edition so well. Does anyone know of some sort of parry ability that would allow it to protect its body but not its tendrils?



I think the normal sunder mechanics should cover the AC of the tendrils, so we should just list 1 AC value.


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## Big Mac (Aug 6, 2008)

freyar said:


> Agreed, which would give them the 3 tendrils in the regular attack.




That is you agreeing with me agreeing with you. 



freyar said:


> I like the idea of sundering tendrils.  I'd possibly reduce the hp/tendril a little, since I imagine these are kind of thin.  I guess about 6hp each is ok, though.




Sounds right to me.



freyar said:


> I don't think we need the fire/acid damage thing, since the tendrils would not be growing back during a single combat (unlike hydra heads).  I also don't think that sundering all the tendrils should kill the bloodthorn.




You are quite right. Chop out that stuff. A tendril-less arid bloodthorn wouldn't automatically be dead, but without any defence should possibly be vulnerable to a Coup de Grace attack (even though it isn't normally subject to critical hits).



freyar said:


> Not sure we need the first sentence, since we wouldn't have the hydra's "sundered death" mechanic.




Agreed.

<snip - I agree with your agreement with me  >



freyar said:


> I think the usual Improved Grab converts the intent of this pretty well; now it requires a grapple check but only needs to hit (not by 4 or more over).




I missed this. Its already in there.  I think maybe the flavor text could be a bit more like the original version (describing the tendrils as wrapping around opponents rather than grabbing them). This plant grapples, but not in the traditional sense.



freyar said:


> Sure, we could add that the the 2nd paragraph you indented above.  In addition, or instead, depending on what we think makes sense, we can add that removing the thorns requires a DC X Heal check or deals X hp damage.  That's a pretty common mechanic.




That is a different way to do it, but if it is what the other monsters all do then maybe it is the best way.

(I wonder whether it is worth describing the bloodthorns themselves as having hollow points. This could allow a plant to use them to "suck" out the blood, but would fit in with the idea of an amputated tendril continuing to cause bloodloss until removed.)



freyar said:


> I think the normal sunder mechanics should cover the AC of the tendrils, so we should just list 1 AC value.




IIRC the sunder mechnanic makes it harder to disarm an oponent than hit them. The old beastie worked the other way (it was easier to hack off the tendrils than stab the heart of the plant). But it really is no big deal. I don't think that feature is that important.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2008)

Good stuff!

Updated.


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2008)

I don't think we want the first sentence that severing all tendrils kills the plant. 

Big Mac, I might be getting this wrong, but I think the sunder vs the tendrils is an opposed attack roll rather than a fixed AC because the tendrils are a "weapon" rather than an "object."  Though I admit that the rules seem a little vague on this point. 

Also, the bloodthorn can move even without tendrils, so I think it shouldn't be CdG'ed, since it's not helpless.


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## Shade (Aug 8, 2008)

freyar said:


> I don't think we want the first sentence that severing all tendrils kills the plant.




I'm open to suggestions.  



freyar said:


> Big Mac, I might be getting this wrong, but I think the sunder vs the tendrils is an opposed attack roll rather than a fixed AC because the tendrils are a "weapon" rather than an "object."  Though I admit that the rules seem a little vague on this point.




Agreed.



freyar said:


> Also, the bloodthorn can move even without tendrils, so I think it shouldn't be CdG'ed, since it's not helpless.




Agreed again.


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## Big Mac (Aug 10, 2008)

Shade said:


> freyar said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think we want the first sentence that severing all tendrils kills the plant.
> ...




I already agreed with Freyar on this point. The coup de grace vulnerability was a suggestion for an alternative way to handle this, but I now think that was also wrong.



Shade said:


> freyar said:
> 
> 
> > Big Mac, I might be getting this wrong, but I think the sunder vs the tendrils is an opposed attack roll rather than a fixed AC because the tendrils are a "weapon" rather than an "object."  Though I admit that the rules seem a little vague on this point.
> ...




I stand corrected. But my point is that in the original monster it was easier to hit the tendrils than the body, but now it is easier to hit the body than the tendrils.

Perhaps the bloodthorn should have some sort of "Sacrificial Parry" ability that allows it to put a tendril into harms way to prevent its body taking the damage.



Shade said:


> freyar said:
> 
> 
> > Also, the bloodthorn can move even without tendrils, so I think it shouldn't be CdG'ed, since it's not helpless.
> ...




I suggested that a bloodthorn that looses its tendrils should become defenceless and vulnerable to a coup de grace attack by anyone who attacks it. But thinking again, I think it should retain the ability to run away.

How about if we just say that a bloodthorn with no tendrils is disarmed and looses its ability to attack opponents or to counter grapple attempts. Maybe it could attempt to flee and seek out a safe location where it can grow a new set of tendrils.


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## freyar (Aug 10, 2008)

Big Mac said:


> I stand corrected. But my point is that in the original monster it was easier to hit the tendrils than the body, but now it is easier to hit the body than the tendrils.
> 
> Perhaps the bloodthorn should have some sort of "Sacrificial Parry" ability that allows it to put a tendril into harms way to prevent its body taking the damage.



Interesting idea, and I see what you mean about being easier to hit the body.  We should definitely consider that.



> I suggested that a bloodthorn that looses its tendrils should become defenceless and vulnerable to a coup de grace attack by anyone who attacks it. But thinking again, I think it should retain the ability to run away.
> 
> How about if we just say that a bloodthorn with no tendrils is disarmed and looses its ability to attack opponents or to counter grapple attempts. Maybe it could attempt to flee and seek out a safe location where it can grow a new set of tendrils.




I agree.  It can't run away very fast, but that should be part of its tactics description.


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## Big Mac (Aug 10, 2008)

freyar said:


> Interesting idea, and I see what you mean about being easier to hit the body.  We should definitely consider that.




Mechanically, I think that Shield Other could help keep the body of the bloodthorn alive. If the bloodthorn could transfer a certain amount of damage from its body into its tendrils, it could allow its tendrils to die to keep its body alive.

However, the original creature had no such sort of ability. So I think that it would need to be rebooted and given a different spin. Maybe instead of Sacrificial Parry it could be called Shield Body.

Alternatively, maybe it would be easier if the tendrils could each use the Aid Another action to all give the bloodthorn's body +2 AC. If each tendril was able to do this then a bloodthorns tendrils could work together to give its body a boost of between +6 and +16 AC.



freyar said:


> I agree.  It can't run away very fast, but that should be part of its tactics description.




Do we have any examples of creatures engaging in combat when they have no ability to cause damage? I think it could still Overun its oponent as that does not seem to require an ability to cause damage.


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## freyar (Aug 11, 2008)

Bull Rush, too, I guess.


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2008)

I think I like the "sacrificial parry" option best.  How's this?

Sacrificial Parry (Ex):  As a swift action, a bloodthorn can move one of its tendrils to intercept an attack intended for its body.  All damage is dealt to the tendril rather than the body.

I wouldn't worry too much about what it can do once its tendrils are all severed.  It is essentially just a lame duck at that point, much like a wizard without spells.


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## freyar (Aug 21, 2008)

Two things for the sacrificial parry: it needs to be an immediate action, and it probably shouldn't be automatic.  How about this?

Sacrificial Parry (Ex): As an immediate action, a bloodthorn can move one of its tendrils to intercept an attack intended for its body.  To do so, the bloodthorn makes a tendril attack roll; if that roll exceeds its opponents attack check, all damage is dealt to the tendril rather than the body.  Otherwise, damage is dealt to the body as usual.


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## Shade (Aug 22, 2008)

I like it.

Updated


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## freyar (Aug 22, 2008)

Hmm, we still need to get rid of the line that it can be killed by severing all the tendrils.

Spot 3, Listen 3 for skills?  Or maybe Hide 2, Listen 2, Spot 2?

How are the tendrils +8 attack? (Noticed that when thinking about feats.)


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## Big Mac (Aug 25, 2008)

freyar said:


> Hmm, we still need to get rid of the line that it can be killed by severing all the tendrils.




Yep. That is my baggage. I think we also need to insert some new information that explains how the creature actually fights. The blurb is currently just about how to kill it.



freyar said:


> Spot 3, Listen 3 for skills?  Or maybe Hide 2, Listen 2, Spot 2?




Or perform piano!  

Joking aside, I think these work fairly well, although the creature doesn't seem to have ears to listen with. I wonder if it would hear through its body.



freyar said:


> How are the tendrils +8 attack? (Noticed that when thinking about feats.)




Hmm. I'm not sure. I don't think this one is my fault (the last one definately was) unless this is something imported from the hydra. Maybe +8 is for a creature with more HD. What do you think the BAB should be?


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## freyar (Aug 25, 2008)

The BAB is listed correctly as +2, and Str should give another +2, so tendril +4.  Probably this is copy-paste from the hydra.

Feats: Weapon Focus (tendril), Power Attack?

Removing the severed vine does 1d4+Con bonus damage?  Con based DC for the Heal check?

CR 3? Treasure: 1/10 coins, 1/10 goods, 1/2 items? Advancement: - like the hydra?  The plant's base is 5 ft long? 

Ready to move to the 4-tendril version?


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## Big Mac (Aug 26, 2008)

freyar said:


> The BAB is listed correctly as +2, and Str should give another +2, so tendril +4.  Probably this is copy-paste from the hydra.




Ohh! I just noticed that the grapple is +8. Maybe we copied that over to the attack roll by mistake.

I'm happy to go with your changes. Is the grapple ok?



freyar said:


> Feats: Weapon Focus (tendril), Power Attack?




They seem OK to me.



freyar said:


> Removing the severed vine does 1d4+Con bonus damage?  Con based DC for the Heal check?




So do you want to do Con damage instead of hp damage when the vine is removed? 



freyar said:


> CR 3? Treasure: 1/10 coins, 1/10 goods, 1/2 items? Advancement: - like the hydra?  The plant's base is 5 ft long?




That all sounds fairly logical. Are we going to make the plants with more tendril's larger or keep them all the same size?



freyar said:


> Ready to move to the 4-tendril version?




I think we have missed this out:

The plant retreats from flame, and any stem that is seared releases its victim and curls back up around the base.​
Maybe that needs to go into the combat section as flavor. Or maybe this plant should have some sort of vulnerability to fire.

The "curls back up" refernce suggests to me that the tendrils may naturally sit curled up around the base of the plant.

I also think we need to explain a bit about the combat tactics of the plant in the combat section (before the mention of cutting of tendrils).

The plant normally lies dormant and immobile with its thorns lynig flat against its vines. So I'd say a spot check against DC X will reveal that the plant has dangerous spikes, otherwise people should see it as a normal plant. (A search check should provoke an attack.)

It waits until a creature comes into range and then lashes out. I'm not sure how it came to get "low light vision". I think that might be a cut and paste error. I think it should have something like tremorsense or some sort of bodyheat detection.

Several plants are said to sometimes attack at the same time, but I'd make that a co-incidence. Someone fighting a bloodthorn should set of nearby plants by their movement.


----------



## freyar (Aug 26, 2008)

Big Mac said:


> Ohh! I just noticed that the grapple is +8. Maybe we copied that over to the attack roll by mistake.
> 
> I'm happy to go with your changes. Is the grapple ok?



Grapple looks right to me; it has a +4 bonus for being Large.



> So do you want to do Con damage instead of hp damage when the vine is removed?



I meant to do hp damage of the value 1d4+the bloodthorn's Con modifier, which would be 1d4+2 for this bloodthorn.  But I don't remember if usually the Con modifier is added in situations like this.



> That all sounds fairly logical. Are we going to make the plants with more tendril's larger or keep them all the same size?



My feeling is to increase size somewhere in the middle (maybe at 6 tendrils?).



> I think we have missed this out:
> 
> The plant retreats from flame, and any stem that is seared releases its victim and curls back up around the base.​
> Maybe that needs to go into the combat section as flavor. Or maybe this plant should have some sort of vulnerability to fire.
> ...




Yes, some kind of vulnerability to fire would make sense.  The normal bloodthorn in the CC is vulnerable to cold (in that it gets paralyzed if hit by a cold attack).  Maybe something like that?



> I also think we need to explain a bit about the combat tactics of the plant in the combat section (before the mention of cutting of tendrils).



Yeah, Shade normally does that. 


> The plant normally lies dormant and immobile with its thorns lynig flat against its vines. So I'd say a spot check against DC X will reveal that the plant has dangerous spikes, otherwise people should see it as a normal plant. (A search check should provoke an attack.)



Could go with the Spot check or maybe just leave it as flavor?  Not sure.


> It waits until a creature comes into range and then lashes out. I'm not sure how it came to get "low light vision". I think that might be a cut and paste error. I think it should have something like tremorsense or some sort of bodyheat detection.
> 
> Several plants are said to sometimes attack at the same time, but I'd make that a co-incidence. Someone fighting a bloodthorn should set of nearby plants by their movement.




Probably blindsight or lifesense would be good, but tremorsense works for me, too.  We can just use the organization (patch) for the multiple bloodthorns, I think.


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## Shade (Sep 2, 2008)

Updated.

Plants get low-light vision by default, but I'm fine with adding tremorsense or lifesense.

Normal vulnerability (+50% damage) to fire?


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2008)

Let's add tremorsense -- just seems good for a plant.  Regular vulnerability to fire is good by me.


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2008)

Updated.

A mature plant consists of a base about x feet long with several clumps of small-bladed leaves and lush, red berries. Thorny vines extend to 10 feet.

How large should the base be?


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2008)

I earlier suggested 5 ft, but we could go 10 ft just to agree with the space (though space is really sort of an abstraction).


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2008)

Let's go with 10 feet.

Time for the 4-HD version...

Do we want to increase Str and natural armor at various Hit Dice like the hydra?   Anything else besides number of attacks and normal changes based on HD?


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2008)

Why don't we start with just the normal minimal changes due to increased HD and see if we need to add anything to bump the CR?  We should probably aim for CR+1 for each extra tentacle/HD.


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2008)

Ok, here are cumulative changes I'd suggest at each HD:
4HD - Str 16
5HD - natural armor +7, Dex 14
6HD - Str 18, Improved Initiative
7HD - natural armor +9
8HD - Str 20.

Does that seem sufficient?


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2008)

Updated with those suggestions.

I think the CRs are still too high for the higher-HD versions.  Compare to CR 6 tendriculous and shambling mound and CR 8 treant.

Edit:  On second thought, the high number of attacks (and potential blood drain) seems to give it enough damage output to possibly offset the other abilities.


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2008)

Yeah, I'm on the fence about the CRs, too.  Anyone else have an idea?


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## Shade (Sep 12, 2008)

Same guy chiming in again, but I compared to the hydra and they don't gain much more beyond an additional attack at each increased CR.


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## freyar (Sep 13, 2008)

Shade said:


> Same guy chiming in again, but I compared to the hydra and they don't gain much more beyond an additional attack at each increased CR.



Note they also get +2 Str every other head/CR, +1 natural armor every head/CR, +1 fast healing each head/CR, and feats per HD.  So we could stick with what I suggested or go with something more uniform, like +1 natural armor each time and +2 Str at 5 and 7 tendrils.  I think I like what I put down, since it gives them a little extra (after all, they're not getting extra fast healing).


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## Shade (Sep 13, 2008)

freyar said:


> Note they also get +2 Str every other head/CR, +1 natural armor every head/CR, +1 fast healing each head/CR, and feats per HD.  So we could stick with what I suggested or go with something more uniform, like +1 natural armor each time and +2 Str at 5 and 7 tendrils.  I think I like what I put down, since it gives them a little extra (after all, they're not getting extra fast healing).




Look again...I think I already included all your suggestions.


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## freyar (Sep 14, 2008)

Shade said:


> Look again...I think I already included all your suggestions.



Wow, in on a weekend! 

Yeah, I saw that you had those suggestions.  I was just saying that we could go for something more uniform like the hydra, but I think what I had worked about right.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

Echohawk said:


> However, Jakandor's arid bloodthorn is clearly based on the Planescape version. It shares much of the descriptive text, for one thing. It may indeed make sense to develop updates of the Planescape and Jakandor versions of the bloodthorn at the same time.




Shall we work on the Planescape version now?


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2008)

It is likely to be quick, so sure.  Has that one not been converted yet?


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

Let’s look at the differences:

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Outlands, Carceri, Abyss, Pandemonium
FREQUENCY: Common
ARMOR CLASS: 3

The vines are AC 3 (rather than 4)

Some flavor text differences about where they're found on the planes.


That's it!   So...Extraplanar version sidebar, noting different Environment line and additional flavor text?


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

Yeah, maybe note that the extraplanar version has an extra +1 to natural armor, and that's it.

Just noticed that you still need to remove the line that arid bloodthorns can be killed by severing all tendrils.


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2008)

freyar said:


> Yeah, maybe note that the extraplanar version has an extra +1 to natural armor, and that's it.




Sounds good.



freyar said:


> Just noticed that you still need to remove the line that arid bloodthorns can be killed by severing all tendrils.




Man, that line is invisible to me.  It should finally be gone.  I think.  Maybe.


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

So we'll do the Planescape ones as a sidebar, then?

That line is now gone!


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2008)

Added the sidebar.

All done?


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

Looks great!


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2008)

Sweet!  This one has been patiently awaiting its turn...

*Deathglow Moths*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Forest/mountain
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Nocturnal
DIET: Carnivores
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Incidental
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
No. APPEARING: 1d20
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 6, Fl 12 (C)
HIT DICE: 2
THAC0: 19
No. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
SIZE: S (3') across
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: 175

Deathglow moths are a magical mutation, similar to the owlbear and the stirge. These moths have a 3' wingspan, the typical feathery antennae, and a translucent abdomen. Their coloration varies from a brown, bark-colored body and wings the color of tree moss to an almost albino species that matches the bark of birch trees. Regardless of the body and wing coloration, when a deathglow moth goes hunting at night, its abdomen glows a sickly yellow-green; males tend to have a greener tint while in females yellow predominates.

Combat: Deathglow moths fly from their secluded roosts high in the largest trees the region has to offer artd flutter their way along, looking for suitable prey. The deathglow moth only attacks from the air. Its small mouth causes only 1d4 points of damage, but that is not the worst damage a deathglow moth can inflict. Every round that a creature is within 10' of the deathglow moth's abdomen, the creature must save vs. Death Magic or lose 1d3 points of Strength. If a character's Strength falls below zero, the character dies, and the death glow moth settles in to feed. Lost Strength can be recovered at the rate of one point per hour of rest. Feeding moths are easy to slay for their glow is extinguished. Their deadly glow dies when they do and cannot be harvested by intrepid hunters.

Habitat/Society: Deathglow moths live only in the deepest forests and highest mountains of Jakandor, where packs of the flying creatures attack everything from birds to small mammals such as rabbits, and if it is hungry enough even humans. These creatures live in colony roosts like bats. These roosts are usually at least 30' above the forest floor. Deathglow moths instinctively seek out a tree that matches its camouflage pattern on which to roost.

While not a natural creature, deathglow moths occupy an admissible role in its habitat. Its relatively low speed allows faster flying creatures to escape, and its deathglow affects the sickest or the weakest target first, thus helping to thin populations allowing the healthier specimens to survive and propagate the species.

Ecology: While the deathglow moth is far from the largest or the fastest predator in forest or mountainous regions, its unique ability protects it from most predators. Little is known of the lifespan of a death glow moth, and even less is known of the creature's procreative habits. It is surmised that deathglow moths and its eggs and larvae are immune to the detrimental effect of the creature's deathglow.

Charonti scholars have raised many questions over the abundance of so many creatures that seem to have been magically evolved from a natural creature. The presence of purely magical beasts such as the bulette or the leucrotta is to be expected in a place where magical energy is existent. Some scholars speculate that the Wasting Plague may have triggered some latent factor in these creatures, which, over the intervening centuries, created the creatures of today. If this hypothesis is true, it begs a question: Did the Worldender Plague destroy the ancient Charonti, or was/there a latent element in the Charonti ancestors' bodies that the Wasting Plague merely awakened? And is that element still with them?

Originally appeared in Jakandor, Land of Legend (1998).


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

Small magical beast, then?

Keep Str drain or switch to Con?  I've noticed sometimes these older monsters use Str rather than Con (like the giant mosquito, I think).


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2008)

Downsizing a beacon moth (Huge) to Small yields...

Str -3, Dex 25, Con 4, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 16

OK, so maybe that doesn't work so well!  

Let's try a gloomwing (L) to Small...

Str -1, Dex 20, Con 7, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10

OK, still no good.

How about increasing a giant fly (T) to Small...

Str 5, Dex 17, Con 10, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 2

That seems a bit more on-track.  With a Dex modifier of +3, and a size modifier of +1, that translates its AC perfectly.   Assuming Cha-based for the deathglow effect, Cha needs to be at least decent.

Thoughts?


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2008)

Let's up Cha to 14 but drop Str to 3?


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



> Every round that a creature is within 10' of the deathglow moth's abdomen, the creature must save vs. Death Magic or lose 1d3 points of Strength. If a character's Strength falls below zero, the character dies, and the death glow moth settles in to feed. Lost Strength can be recovered at the rate of one point per hour of rest. Feeding moths are easy to slay for their glow is extinguished. Their deadly glow dies when they do and cannot be harvested by intrepid hunters.




How's this?

Deathglow (Su):  A deathglow moth's abdomen continuously glows with a sickly light.  All creatures within a 10-foot radius must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or take 1d3 points of Strength damage.  A creature reduced to Strength 0 by a deathglow moth dies.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2008)

That works, but dying from dropping to 0 Str is weird (though similar things have popped up here and there).  What do you think about switching to Con damage?  As I mentioned above, the original text for the giant mosquitos had them damaging Str, but we changed that to Con damage as well.


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2008)

freyar said:


> That works, but dying from dropping to 0 Str is weird (though similar things have popped up here and there).  What do you think about switching to Con damage?  As I mentioned above, the original text for the giant mosquitos had them damaging Str, but we changed that to Con damage as well.




I'm fine with switching to Con, but I lifted the dying at Str 0 bit directly from the shadow, so there is precedence.


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2008)

Ehh, let's stick with Str.  If there's actually one in the SRD...


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## Shade (Sep 19, 2008)

Updated.



> INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)




Wanna give them Int 1 rather than mindless?  They are magical beasts, after all, and could really use Ability Focus for their sole trick.



> TREASURE: Incidental




None?  I suppose we could mention the incidental bits in the flavor text.



> Their coloration varies from a brown, bark-colored body and wings the color of tree moss to an almost albino species that matches the bark of birch trees.






> Deathglow moths instinctively seek out a tree that matches its camouflage pattern on which to roost.




Racial bonus on Hide checks in trees, except when deathglow is activated?


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## GrayLinnorm (Sep 19, 2008)

Yes to intelligence.


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## Shade (Sep 19, 2008)

Granting them Intelligence grants 5 skill points.

Put all in Spot?


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## freyar (Sep 21, 2008)

Yes to all the above, I think.


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2008)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 2?

Advancement: x

A deathglow moth is about 3 feet long with a 3-foot wingspan and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2008)

Yeah, I think the Str damage is worth CR 2.

3-5HD (Small), 6-8 HD (Medium)?

2 lb?


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2008)

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2008)

Think so!  That one was much faster...


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## Shade (Sep 24, 2008)

*Narek (The Thing in the Shaft)*

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: The Library of Kas (Tovag)
FREQUENCY: Unique
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: None
INTELLIGENCE: Highly (14)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 6
HIT DICE: 14 (94 hp)
THAC0: 7
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2d6
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d6 each
SPECIAL ATACKS: Constriction
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to fire and some spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: G (25' across)
MORALE: Elite (13)
XP VALUE: 9,000

Alas, poor Narek! One of the many bastard children of Kas the Destroyer, he -- it -- now resides forever in a prison forged of betrayal and jealousy. Kas the Bloody, Kas the Wicked, Kas the Warlord sired a son and called him Narek. Narek had great talents for the sorcerous arts. Even Kas's master was impressed with the youth. Narek was too young to have learned never to outshine Kas in his master's eyes. Kas imprisoned the young man in a tomb, trapping him there for all eternity with his magical books.

Narek, filled with not quite enough skill and a little too much confidence, attempted a spell that was beyond him. Its energies transformed him into an unspeakable monstrosity. Now Narek is nothing more than the Thing in the Shaft. Nameless, soulless, loveless, the son of Kas seeks nothing but the pain and suffering of others.

Combat: The Thing in the Shaft is a horrible slimy mass with hundreds of tendrils. It attacks with 2d6 of these tendrils each round, which grasp and lunge for any and all victims. The Thing can attack up to four different targets in a round, and the tendrils can stretch to strike at targets up to forty feet away.

If a foe is hit with four or more tendrils in the same round, the ropy appendages grasp and snare the victim, who is now immobilized. Characters so grasped suffer 2d6 hp of constriction damage. The Thing draws grappled victims in close to it at a rate of ten feet per round. It does not eat its prey, however (since it does not even have a mouth) but merely continues to squeeze the drawn-in victim into its mass until it is dead. Slain foes are haphazardly tossed aside. To break free, the tendrils holding the victim must be severed (each can sustain 4 hp of damage) or the victim must make a successful Strength check for each constricting appendage.

Due to the slime and ooze that covers the Thing, it cannot burn and is thus immune to fire. No charm spells or magic of a controlling or form-altering nature (such as polymorph spells) can affect it.

Habitat/Society: The Thing in the Shaft dwells alone in its prison. If freed, the creature would begin a silent reign of terror and madness as it lurked in dark places large enough to accommodate it (dark alleyways, wide wells, cellars, and so forth), striking out at anyone who would dare to come near.

Ecology: If a sage learned in the ways of monstrous biology ever got the chance to examine the Thing, it is likely that he might suggest that it possesses many characteristics similar to the monster known as the roper. Perhaps this has something to do with the spell Narek attempted and failed so long ago.

The Thing needs no nourishment, sustained'merely by its own hatred and chagrin. It attacks others out of cruelty and rage, not hunger or need.

Originally appeared Vecna Reborn (1998).


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## Shade (Sep 24, 2008)

Gargantuan aberration?

The "divide by 4.5" rule gives it 20 HD.

It reminds me of the darktentacles from MM2.  We could probably mine that creature for inspiration.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 24, 2008)

A giant, advanced darktentacles seems like a good place to start.


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## Shade (Sep 25, 2008)

Here's a Gargantuan, 20-HD darktentacles...

Gargantuan Aberration
Hit Dice: 20d8+140 (230 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 5 ft., swim 20 ft.
Armor Class: 21 (-4 size, +1 Dex, +14 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+39
Attack: Slam +23 melee (1d8+12), or weapon +23 melee (damage bonus +12)
Full Attack: 12 slams +23 melee (1d8+12), or weapon +23/+18/+13 melee and 11 light weapons +23 melee, or weapon +23/+18/+13 melee and 11 weapons (at least one of which is not light) +21 melee (damage bonus +12 for primary hand and +6 for each off hand)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./25 ft.
Special Attacks: Constrict 4d6+18, improved grab
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., enhanced multiweapon fighting, tentacle regeneration, tremorsense, weapon use
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +7, Will +13
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 13, Con 25, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 12
Skills: Hide +16, Listen +24, Move Silently +24, Spot +24
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Multidexterity, Multiweapon Fighting, Stealthy, 3 more
Environment: Any marsh
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 12
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: -

A darktentacles can use only three tentacles at once against a Small or Medium opponent. Against a larger foe, it can use three additional tentacles for each extra 5 feet of face the opponent has, provided that it has the reach. Against a Tiny or smaller opponent, the creature can use only one tentacle. It can use a maximum of three tentacles against all foes in any single 5-foot by 5-foot area.

Constrict (Ex): With a successful grapple check, a darktentacles can crush a grabbed opponent, dealing 4d6+18 points of bludgeoning damage.

Improved Grab (Ex): If a darktentacles hits an opponent that is at least one size category smaller than itself with a slam attack, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity (grapple bonus +30; includes a +16 racial bonus on grapple checks). If it gets a hold, it can also constrict the same round. Thereafter, the darktentacle has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use its tentacle to hold the opponent (-20 penalty on grapple check, but the darktentacles is not considered grappled). In either case, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals slam and constrict damage.

Enhanced Multiweapon Fighting (Ex): This ability lessens the penalty for off-hand weapon use by 2 for both primary and off hands. Combined with the Multidexterity and Multiweapon Fighting feats, this ability effectively negates all attack penalties for using one or more light off-hand weapons.

Tentacle Regeneration (Ex): An opponent can attack a darktentacles's tentacles as if they were weapons--see Sunder, in Chapter 8 in the Player's Handbook. A darktentacles's tentacles have 20 hit points. If the darktentacles is currely grappling a target with that tentacle, it usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the sunder attempt. Severing a darktentacles's tentacles deals damage to the creature equal to half the limb's hit points. A darktentacles regrows severed limbs within a day.

Tremorsense (Ex): A darktentacles can automatically sense the location of anything within 60 feet that is in contact with the ground.

Weapon Use (Ex): A darktentacles of Gargantuan size can wield a melee weapon of up to Colossal size in each tentacle. It is proficient with all simple and martial melee weapons.

Skills: A darktentacles receives a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks.

----------------------------------------------------------------

I removed the spell-like abilities, and thus dropped the Concentration skill ranks that went along with those.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 25, 2008)

Do we want to repurpose improved grab and constrict into attach and drag, since they appear to be somewhat roper-like?


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## Shade (Sep 25, 2008)

That might be a good idea.  We probably ought to drop all the weapon-wielding bits, as it doesn't seem to use weapons.


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## freyar (Sep 25, 2008)

Agreed with all the above, except we should keep some kind of constrict.  That's how it seems to do most of its damage, after all.


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## Shade (Sep 25, 2008)

Added to Homebrews, so we'd have a reference point as we revise the improved grab/constrict to some sort of drag mechanic.


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2008)

Maybe some version of multigrab here, also.  An ability to grapple more than one opponent at a time might also make sense.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 26, 2008)

freyar said:


> Maybe some version of multigrab here, also.  An ability to grapple more than one opponent at a time might also make sense.




Sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Sep 26, 2008)

> Combat: The Thing in the Shaft is a horrible slimy mass with hundreds of tendrils. It attacks with 2d6 of these tendrils each round, which grasp and lunge for any and all victims. The Thing can attack up to four different targets in a round, and the tendrils can stretch to strike at targets up to forty feet away.




It looks like I had the reach a bit low.  Fixed.



> If a foe is hit with four or more tendrils in the same round, the ropy appendages grasp and snare the victim, who is now immobilized. Characters so grasped suffer 2d6 hp of constriction damage.




Hmmm...so it only constricts if four or more tentacles hit.  This is closer to the extract brain of the illithid.



> The Thing draws grappled victims in close to it at a rate of ten feet per round. It does not eat its prey, however (since it does not even have a mouth) but merely continues to squeeze the drawn-in victim into its mass until it is dead.




The drag doesn't really make much difference, though, since it has no "finishing move" once someone reaches its space.



> Slain foes are haphazardly tossed aside. To break free, the tendrils holding the victim must be severed (each can sustain 4 hp of damage) or the victim must make a successful Strength check for each constricting appendage.




Once again like a roper's strands.  Or the darktentacles' tentacle regeneration.

So I guess we need to decide if we want to alter to an attach/drag mechanic, despite no special "finishing move", or just stick with improved grab, albeit with the requirement of four or more tentacles attached before constrict damage occurs (more like rend, really).  Thoughts?



> Due to the slime and ooze that covers the Thing, it cannot burn and is thus immune to fire. No charm spells or magic of a controlling or form-altering nature (such as polymorph spells) can affect it.




Immunity to fire, mind-affecting spells or abilities, and polymorph?


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2008)

Immunities sound right.

I think drag sounds right, though with a grapple mechanic.  If there are 4 or more tentacles grabbing, you not only drag but get constriction. 

As for a "finishing move," want to say that there are extra tentacles, so you either automatically constrict (ie, more tentacles attach) or increase constriction?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 27, 2008)

Finishing could be something like crush?


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## freyar (Sep 28, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Finishing could be something like crush?



Sounds good, but can you remind me where that one's from?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 28, 2008)

Like dragons. Land on top of someone for auto damage and pin.


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## freyar (Sep 28, 2008)

Oh, of course, never mind little old me.  Brain not working...


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## Shade (Sep 30, 2008)

So something like this...

Drag (Ex): If Narek hits with a tentacle attack, the tentacle deals normal damage and latches onto the opponent’s body. Once Narek has latched onto a victim with at least four tentacles, it drags the stuck opponent 10 feet closer each subsequent round (provoking no attack of opportunity) unless that creature breaks free, which requires a DC x Escape Artist check or a DC x Strength check. The check DCs are Strength-based, and the Escape Artist DC includes a +4 racial bonus. Narek can draw in a creature within 10 feet of itself and crush the opponent in the same round.

A tentacle has 20 hit points and can be attacked by making a successful sunder attempt. However, attacking one of Narek's tentacles does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the tentacle is currently attached to a target, Narek takes a –4 penalty on its opposed attack roll to resist the sunder attempt. Severing Narek's tentacles deals damage to the creature equal to half the limb's hit points. Narek regrows severed limbs within a day.

If Narek begins its turn with at least one tentacle attached, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on attack rolls to attach additional tentacles for every tentacle that was attached at the beginning of the opponent's turn.

Crush (Ex): Narek can use its whole body to crush any adjacent opponents three or more sizes smaller than itself as a standard action. A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under Narek's body. Each creature in the affected area must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or be pinned, automatically taking xdx+(Str and 1/2) points of bludgeoning damage. The save DC is Strength-based. Thereafter, if Narek chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. While pinned, the opponent takes crush damage each round. 

Alternatively, we could modify the "reverse bull rush" method we used for the cave fisher...

Drag (Ex): Once a creature sticks to a cave fisher’s filament, the filament fastens onto the opponent’s body. It attempts to drag the victim closer on its turn. This activity resembles the bull rush maneuver, except that the cave fisher drags its victim 10 feet closer +1 foot for each point by which its Strength check exceeds the victim's. If a cave fisher draws a creature to within 5 feet of itself, it can make two claw attacks with a +4 attack bonus in the same round.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 1, 2008)

The reverse bull's rush is a bit more elegant, methinks.


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## freyar (Oct 1, 2008)

I like the reverse bull rush, also, with the provision that he can crush the same round he gets someone within 10 ft.  And that you are only dragged if grappled, of course.  The crush damage should be quite high (higher than constrict, at least).

Also, want to give a grapple bonus for multiple tentacles like we did for surchur?


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2008)

Crush damage like an equal-sized true dragon (4d6+one and a half Str)?



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Also, want to give a grapple bonus for multiple tentacles like we did for surchur?




Probably not, as it isn't actually grappling.  (We can't use improved grab, since a successful grapple assumes the victim is immediately pulled into the grappler's space).  Perhaps a cumulative bonus on the check with drag for each additional tentacle?

How does this look?

Drag (Ex): If Narek hits with a tentacle attack, the tentacle deals normal damage and latches onto the opponent’s body. Once Narek has latched onto a victim with at least four tentacles, it attempts to drag the victim closer on its turn. This activity resembles the bull rush maneuver, except that Narek drags its victim 10 feet closer +1 foot for each point by which its Strength check exceeds the victim's. If Narke draws a creature to within 10 feet of itself, it can make a crush attack in the same round.

A tentacle has 20 hit points and can be attacked by making a successful sunder attempt. However, attacking one of Narek's tentacles does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the tentacle is currently attached to a target, Narek takes a –4 penalty on its opposed attack roll to resist the sunder attempt. Severing Narek's tentacles deals damage to the creature equal to half the limb's hit points. Narek regrows severed limbs within a day.

If Narek begins its turn with at least one tentacle attached, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on attack rolls to attach additional tentacles for every tentacle that was attached at the beginning of the opponent's turn.


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## freyar (Oct 2, 2008)

That all sounds fine.


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2008)

Updated.

Feats: Combat Reflexes, Stealthy, 5 more

Challenge Rating: 15?

Narek is 25 feet in diameter and weighs x pounds. 

Narek cannot speak, but understands x.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 2, 2008)

Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (slam), Improved Initiative and I'm blanking on the last one.

We should change (with tentacle) to (with slam) in the Space/Reach bar.


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## freyar (Oct 2, 2008)

If we swap Cleave for Imp Bull Rush, we could go for Awesome Blow.

30,000 lb?

Common, Draconic, Abyssal, Infernal?


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> We should change (with tentacle) to (with slam) in the Space/Reach bar.




Actually, it looks like the darktentacles, from which I borrowed the attack lines, is the oddball.  Krakens, squids, etc. use "tentacles" rather than slams, so I've changed everything to replace "slam" with "tentacle".

Updated.

Does CR 15 seem about right?

Anything else?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 3, 2008)

I say 14. They have a lot of damage output but low AC and no SR.


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2008)

Sounds good.  I think we're finished.


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## freyar (Oct 3, 2008)

Looks good to me too.


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2008)

*ICE VAMPIRE*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate and subtropical/Forest
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Incidental
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENT: 12, Sw 18
HIT DICE: 6+6
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Magic, charm
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +1 or better weapon to hit, immune to cold attacks, vampiric regeneration
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 40%
SIZE: Variable
MORALE: Champion (15)
XP VALUE: 2,000

Not true vampires, ice vampires are the spirits of Kagonesti women who have drowned themselves in grief. They take two forms: a female Kagonesti surrounded by mist, or a pool of water (of varying size). Ice vampires feed off the warmth of living creatures, preferring humans, elves, and other intelligent warmblooded creatures.

Combat: In their human form, ice vampires can manipulate cold, which gives them the following powers, each usable once per day: ice storm, cone of cold, and waIl of ice, as 7th-level spellcasters. Their touch drains 2d4 hit points of warmth, which are added to their hit point total, to a maximum of 50 points above their normal hit point maximum. These extra hit points fade away after 24 hours. In their pool form, if they position themselves under a waterfall, they can enthrall one creature within a 240-foot radius; this includes creatures that are normally immune to charm (such as elves). The creature targeted must roll a saving throw vs. spell; if the roll fails, the creature is drawn to touch the water, losing 2d4 hit points per round until he dies or is pulled away by others (these hit points vampirically restore the hit points of the ice vampire, as above). It takes a round for the ice vampire to change forms.

Habitat/Society: The ice vampire is a creature of evil and does not have any social interaction. It prefers to live near waterfalls and pools. An unnatural chill can often be felt within a half mile of an ice vampire.

Ecology: The ice vampire is a spirit, and not part of the normal ecology.

Originally appeared in DLS4 - Wild Elves (1991).


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## freyar (Oct 7, 2008)

Sounds like a monster, rather than template.

First question for me: incorporeal or not?  They are "spirits" but otherwise don't really sound incorporeal.  Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 7, 2008)

Not incorporeal.

It's also sort of a pleasant change that they're ice creatures native to temperate and subtropical climes.


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2008)

Agreed with all that.

Cold subtype?  Nothing indicates vulnerability to fire, so I'm thinking not.

Int is Low (5-7).  Cha should be good.   Str at least average.  Dex decent to partially account for high AC.

Maybe unholy toughness due to the 6+6 Hit Dice?


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## freyar (Oct 7, 2008)

I'm agreed to all that, including no on the cold subtype.  Shapechanger subtype seems appropriate, though.

Str 12, Dex 19, Con -, Int 5, Wis 10, Cha 15?


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Oct 8, 2008)

Is it just me, or does +4 natural armor seem weird for these?  What about unholy grace or whatever it's called that adds Cha as a deflection bonus to AC?  I could then either see boosting Cha or giving a little natural armor (or some of both).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 8, 2008)

I second freyar's suggestion.


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2008)

Sure, great idea!  I'll boost Cha to 18 to keep AC constant.  It's not like they aren't charismatic.  

Updated.

Shall we give them elf traits (low-light vision, bonus vs. enchantments, etc.)?



> Combat: In their human form, ice vampires can manipulate cold, which gives them the following powers, each usable once per day: ice storm, cone of cold, and waIl of ice, as 7th-level spellcasters.




This seems pretty straightforward...

Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—cone of cold (DC x), ice storm, wall of ice. Caster level 7th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.



> Their touch drains 2d4 hit points of warmth, which are added to their hit point total, to a maximum of 50 points above their normal hit point maximum. These extra hit points fade away after 24 hours.




So, literally cold damage that heals the ice vampire, or something more traditional like Con damage/drain (with the usual temporary hit points)?



> In their pool form, if they position themselves under a waterfall, they can enthrall one creature within a 240-foot radius; this includes creatures that are normally immune to charm (such as elves). The creature targeted must roll a saving throw vs. spell; if the roll fails, the creature is drawn to touch the water, losing 2d4 hit points per round until he dies or is pulled away by others (these hit points vampirically restore the hit points of the ice vampire, as above). It takes a round for the ice vampire to change forms.




Alternate form?

Something like this?

Beguiling Song (Su): A rusalka can attempt to beguile creatures with its song. The rusalka sings, targeting a single creature it can see within 300 feet of her body of water (see water symbiosis, below). This is a sonic, mind-affecting ability, and the creature must be able to hear the rusalka for it to take effect. The targeted creature must make a DC 17 Will saving throw. If the save is successful, that creature cannot be affected by that rusalka's song for one day.

Failure indicates the creature is utterly beguiled and moves toward the rusalka, taking the most direct route available. If that path leads into a dangerous area (such as very deep or fast-moving water) the beguiled creature gets a second saving throw. A rusalka who desires a companion often moves out of the water and bestows water breathing upon its beguiled victim so that she can take him underwater. A beguiled creature may take no actions other than defending himself. A beguiled victim who moves within 5 feet of the rusalka must make a DC 18 Will saving throw or be charmed as per charm monster cast by an 8th-level sorcerer. Success means that the character is freed from the beguilement and is immune to that rusalka's beguiling song for 24 hours. The beguiling effect continues so long as the rusalka sings. A rusalka does not need to continue to sing to keep a victim charmed.

A rusalka can use her beguiling song both above and below the water. Good rusalkas cast water breathing on their charmed companions to keep them alive below the waves. Evil rusalkas move into deep water, forcing a beguiled victim to move toward them but never allowing the victim to get within 5 feet. If these unlucky creatures fail their second saving throw, they usually drown (see page 304 of the DMG).


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## freyar (Oct 8, 2008)

Elf traits and SLAs are good.

I'm ambivalent on the cold damage vs Con damage/drain issue.  Thematically, I like the cold damage, but it's a bit unusual for hp to transfer directly for that.  If there's a clear precedent, I'd probably prefer cold damage.

Alternate form works, though we need to specify that it gains new abilities in pool form (similar to the ghaele, I guess).

Yeah, we can probably modify that from the rusalka, specifying that it only works in pool form.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 8, 2008)

The bleakborn from Libris Mortis, aka the Moil zombies from Return to the Tomb of Horrors, heal when they do cold damage.


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2008)

Perfect!

Here's the ability...

Cold To The Touch (Su): The touch of a bleakborn deals 2d6 points of cold damage. Each 3 points of cold damage dealt heals a bleakborn of 1 point of damage. If this amount of healing would cause a bleakborn to exceed its full normal hit point total, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. These temporary hit points last for up to 1 hour. Anyone who hits a bleakborn in melee also takes 1d6 points of cold damage, unless wielding a reach weapon.


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2008)

Works for me!  Just change 2d6 to 2d4, each 3 points to each point, and 1 hour to 24 hours, assuming we go with the original text.  And drop the last sentence, I guess.  Sound right to everyone else?


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2008)

Updated.

Let's figure out how to adapt the rusalka's beguiling song.  First, we need to determine what is enthralling about a pool beneath a waterfall.  Is it exceptionally serene?


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2008)

The sound of the splashing water makes a hypnotic music.


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## Shade (Oct 10, 2008)

Here's an attempt at it..

Beckoning Harmonies (Su): When beneath a waterfall in pool form, an ice vampire can attempt to beckon creatures to the water with the hypnotic music of the falling water. The ice vampire targets a single creature it can see within 240 feet of the body of water she currently occupies. This is a sonic, mind-affecting ability, and the creature must be able to hear the ice vampire for it to take effect. The targeted creature must make a DC x Will saving throw. If the save is successful, that creature cannot be affected by that ice vampire's beckoning harmonies for one day.

Failure indicates the creature is utterly beguiled and moves toward the body of water the ice vampire occupies, taking the most direct route available. If that path leads into a dangerous area (such as very deep or fast-moving water) the beguiled creature gets a second saving throw. A beguiled creature may take no actions other than defending himself. The beguiling effect continues so long as the ice vampire remains in pool form and stays beneath the waterfall. 

The beguiled creature takes 2d4 points of damage each round it remains in contact with the water.  The ice vampire is healed by an equal amount, gaining any hit points over its normal maximum as temporary hit points that last for 24 hours.


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## freyar (Oct 11, 2008)

Looks pretty good to me.


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2008)

Updated.

Damage reduction x/magic (or maybe even /cold iron since they are somewhat reminiscent of fey?)

Skills: 9 (Swim +8)
Note:  "The ice vampire is a creature of evil and does not have any social interaction."

Feats: 3

Treasure: x  ("Incidental")

Alignment: Always neutral evil?

Advancement: x

Ice vampires speak x.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 14, 2008)

Common, Elven, Aquan and Sylvan for the languages? Skills split between Listen, Spot and Hide? I like the idea of DR/ cold iron.


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2008)

All that sounds good.

Should we give it a bonus on Hide checks when in pool form, a bonus on Disguise checks to mimic a pool, or a camouflauge ability requiring a Spot check to determine it isn't ordinary water?

For feats, how about Stealthy and Weapon Finesse, and either Ability Focus (beckoning harmonies) or Improved Initiative?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 14, 2008)

Disguise to mimic a pool sounds good. Camouflage has the disadvantage of being a static DC. 

I'd go Ability Focus, Imp. Init and Weapon Finesse. Especially if we're taking the pool = disguise tack.


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2008)

OK, I'll replace Hide ranks with Disguise ranks as well.

Updated.

Treasure:  Half standard?
Advancement:  7-18 HD (Medium)?

CR 5?  (They aren't tougher than a mummy, but do have some decent SLAs)


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2008)

The ice vampire's bonus hp from unholy toughness should be 24, not 12. As such, I think its CR could stand at 6.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2008)

Nice catch.  I'm really off on unholy toughness for some reason.  Perhaps I'm a victim of unholy confusion.  

Updated.   Anything left?


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2008)

Looks good to me.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2008)

*Goblin Vampire*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Ravenloft
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Fear, blood
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5)
TREASURE: N
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Evil
No. ApPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 3 base, 10 max
THACO: 16 base, 10 max (Hit
Dice + Strength bonus)
No. OF ATTACKS: 2 (claw/claw)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d6+3/ld6+3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Fear aura, gore
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell and poison immunities
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 25%
SIZE: M (6' tall)
MORALE: Fanatic (17)
XP VALUE: 3,000

The goblin vampire is a rare form of undead creature. The creature is twice the size of a normal goblin. Its fangs reach roughly halfway down its chest, rather like those of a smilodon. Its hands appear blackened and shriveled, with long, curved talons. The most horrifying thing about a goblin vampire is its eyes, which pulsate with a strange orange glow.

These creatures care nothing for language or talk, only for the death and destruction they can cause. It is unknown whether they even understand languages they knew in life.

Combat: Anyone who meets the vampire's burning gaze must make an immediate fear check, even if previously exposed to the creature. For each check an opponent fails the goblin vampire gains one Hit Die (to a maximum of 10). The duration of this temporary increase in Hit Dice is equal to the Hit Dice of the victim. Thus, a 5th-level warrior failing a fear check would add one Hit Die to the goblin vampire for five turns.

If both of the goblin vampire's claws hit, the creature has grasped its victim and can automatically gore him with its curved fangs, inflicting an additional 2d6+3 points of damage.

Goblin vampires have the equivalent of 18(50) Strength. This gives them a bonus of +1 on their attack rolls and +3 on their damage rolls.

The goblin vampire is immune to mind- and life-affecting spells such as hold and charm spells. Poisons, diseases, and the like also pose no threat to the creature.

Moonlight is extremely dangerous to the goblin vampire, inflicting 1d4 points of damage each round that it falls upon the creature. Holy water inflicts 1d6+1 points of damage, and an obsidian stake through the heart destroys it instantly. Goblin vampires cannot assume gaseous form or regenerate; they are turned as spectres.

Habitat/Society: Goblin vampires are solitary creatures that stalk the land in search of fear and blood. To date, they have been encountered only in Tepest. They have a great hatred of their former race, and typically hunt down goblins during daytime when they are most vulnerable.

Ecology: Goblin vampires are created only by the unique curse placed on items stolen from the Three Sisters of Tepest. Anyone who carries the item gradually becomes a goblin vampire. The transformation takes twenty hours to complete. If the item is discarded before the change is concluded, the character stops changing. He does not, however, revert to normal.

Goblin vampires live on both the blood and fear of their opponents. The creature must feed on either of the above once per day else it temporarily loses one Hit Die, perishing upon reaching zero. In addition, it must feed on both fear and blood at least once every three days or it again loses one Hit Die on the fourth day and each day thereafter until it does feast on both.

Originally appeared in Servants of Darkness (1998).


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2008)

Weird, hard to see that these actually have anything to do with goblins.  

Anyway, monster or template?  I could go either way with these.


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 16, 2008)

I was thinking that this could be a template that can be applied to any goblinoid.


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:


> I was thinking that this could be a template that can be applied to any goblinoid.




That was my reaction until I got to this part...

"Goblin vampires are created only by the unique curse placed on items stolen from the Three Sisters of Tepest. Anyone who carries the item gradually becomes a goblin vampire."

It appears that it affects any cursed individual.   I could see expanding it a bit to include any goblinoid (cursed or not) or any humanoid (affected by the curse and maybe slain by a goblin vampire).   

Of course, the "anyone" could simply mean "any goblin" in context.   Either way, I think a bugbear would make an entertaining goblin vampire.  

Thoughts?


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2008)

I was kind of reading it like any humanoid or monstrous humanoid.

How about this? Any humanoid (or monstrous humanoid?) can be turned into a goblin vampire by the curse, but they can only create spawn by killing goblinoids.  Although it's not stated in the text, I think the "living on blood and fear" bit could imply blood drain.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2008)

Sounds good.



> INTELLIGENCE: Low (5)




2e goblins were Low to Average (5-10), so an Int penalty might be appropriate.



> ARMOR CLASS: 3




2e goblins were AC 6 armored, AC 10 base.



> MOVEMENT: 12




2e goblins have movement 6.



> No. OF ATTACKS: 2 (claw/claw)
> DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d6+3/ld6+3




Gains 2 claw attacks.



> MAGIC RESISTANCE: 25%




That equates to CR + 6



> The goblin vampire is a rare form of undead creature. The creature is twice the size of a normal goblin.




Since this can be applied to any goblinoid or humanoid, should we increase size category of base creature by +1?  For example, a cave lord has the goblinoid subtype, and is already Large.



> Its fangs reach roughly halfway down its chest, rather like those of a smilodon.




Smilodon's have augmented critical with their fangs.



> These creatures care nothing for language or talk, only for the death and destruction they can cause. It is unknown whether they even understand languages they knew in life.




That's nice to know.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 18, 2008)

Fast, natural armor, increased size, augmented critical all sound pretty good.


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## freyar (Oct 19, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Fast, natural armor, increased size, augmented critical all sound pretty good.



+10 ft speed, +3 or +4 natural sound right?


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2008)

Started in Homebrews.



> Combat: Anyone who meets the vampire's burning gaze must make an immediate fear check, even if previously exposed to the creature. For each check an opponent fails the goblin vampire gains one Hit Die (to a maximum of 10). The duration of this temporary increase in Hit Dice is equal to the Hit Dice of the victim. Thus, a 5th-level warrior failing a fear check would add one Hit Die to the goblin vampire for five turns.




Gaze attack?



> If both of the goblin vampire's claws hit, the creature has grasped its victim and can automatically gore him with its curved fangs, inflicting an additional 2d6+3 points of damage.




Improved grab if hits with both claws, followed by bite attack with bonus on attack roll (or auto hit)?



> Goblin vampires have the equivalent of 18(50) Strength. This gives them a bonus of +1 on their attack rolls and +3 on their damage rolls.




As a template, how big should the Str boost be?  Or does the Str increase due to the size increase suffice?



> The goblin vampire is immune to mind- and life-affecting spells such as hold and charm spells. Poisons, diseases, and the like also pose no threat to the creature.




All standard undead fare.



> Moonlight is extremely dangerous to the goblin vampire, inflicting 1d4 points of damage each round that it falls upon the creature. Holy water inflicts 1d6+1 points of damage, and an obsidian stake through the heart destroys it instantly. Goblin vampires cannot assume gaseous form or regenerate; they are turned as spectres.




The moonlight vulnerability is fun.

What do do with the obsidian stake?

Usual undead holy water vulnerability?

Spectres have +2 turn resistance.



> Goblin vampires live on both the blood and fear of their opponents. The creature must feed on either of the above once per day else it temporarily loses one Hit Die, perishing upon reaching zero. In addition, it must feed on both fear and blood at least once every three days or it again loses one Hit Die on the fourth day and each day thereafter until it does feast on both.




We can use the diet-dependent bits from Libris Mortis for inspiration.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 21, 2008)

Gaze attack causes fear, the goblin vampire gains temporary hit points for each affected victim?


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Gaze attack causes fear, the goblin vampire gains temporary hit points for each affected victim?



Sounds right.

For Str, the boost from size is probably enough.


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2008)

How's this?

Terrifying Gaze (Su): Fear, 30 feet. A creature that meets the goblin vampire's gaze must succeed on a Will save or be frightened/panicked for x rounds. Regardless of their save results, exposed creatures remain susceptible to subsequent meetings of the goblin vampire's gaze. This is a mind-affecting fear effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.

The goblin vampire feeds on fear.  Each time a creature fails a saving throw against its terrifying gaze, the goblin vampire gains 5 temporary hit points that last for 24 hours.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 21, 2008)

Let's go frightened. That way, a frightened character cornered by a goblin vampire can be panicked the next turn.


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2008)

Sounds good.  Suggested duration?



> If both of the goblin vampire's claws hit, the creature has grasped its victim and can automatically gore him with its curved fangs, inflicting an additional 2d6+3 points of damage.




Improved grab and auto-hit with bite?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 22, 2008)

Duration = 5 rounds? 

And grapple = auto hit with bite attack sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2008)

> Holy water inflicts 1d6+1 points of damage, and an obsidian stake through the heart destroys it instantly.




How should we handle the stake through the heart?  These don't appear to rest/rejuvenate like normal vampires.



> Goblin vampires live on both the blood and fear of their opponents. The creature must feed on either of the above once per day else it temporarily loses one Hit Die, perishing upon reaching zero. In addition, it must feed on both fear and blood at least once every three days or it again loses one Hit Die on the fourth day and each day thereafter until it does feast on both.




Here's one approach...

Diet-Dependent: Goblin vampires are diet dependent (see the Undead Metabolism section in Chapter 1 of Libris Mortis) upon blood and fear, the former which is sated through dining on their kills, the latter which they gain through their terrifying gaze.


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2008)

On the terrifying gaze, maybe we should remind the DM that fear stacks (doubly frightened is panicked, etc).

Diet Dependent is fine.

We could combine the stake and the moonlight vulnerability into a "goblin vampire weaknesses" section, but, you're right, I don't see much of a chance for the stake to come into play.  We could just drop it, though that's not so much fun.  We could put it in as a rumor in the flavor text and note that it's very hard to test the theory!


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2008)

A critical hit from an obsidian piercing weapon kills a goblin vampire immediately, but the weapon suffers a -2 attack roll penalty from anyone not proficient in its use?


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## freyar (Oct 24, 2008)

Like this?

Vulnerability to Obsidian (Ex): A successful critical hit from a piercing weapon made of obsidian destroys a goblin vampire immediately.  Characters take the usual penalties if they are not proficient in the obsidian weapon.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

Nice work, guys!  

Updated.

Let's work on the bolded bits...

Create Spawn (Su): Any goblinoid slain by a goblin vampire rises as a free-willed goblin vampire in *x rounds/days*. Humanoids slain by a goblin vampire do not become goblin vampires; only a special curse can transform a non-goblinoid into a goblin vampire.

Abilities: Modify from the base creature as follows: *Int -x*. Being undead, a goblin vampire has no Constitution score. Additionally, apply any ability score modifications dues to its increased size.


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## freyar (Oct 24, 2008)

Let's do 1d4 days, like a normal vampire.

Int -4?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2008)

I agree with both of freyar's suggestions.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

Updated.

Environment: Any?

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +2?  (They don't seem any better than a standard vampire, but have too many benefits for +1).

Treasure: None?  (Type N is just 1-6 platinum pieces).

Advancement: Same as the base creature?

Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +5? (+1 gaze, +1 SR, +1 nat armor, +1 augmented critical, +1 improved grab).


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## freyar (Oct 24, 2008)

I like all that, but I could maybe go with 1/2 coins leftover from the vampire's former life.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

Sure.  Updated.

Ready for a sample creature?  Maybe a bugbear?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2008)

A bugbear with levels in fighter or rogue?


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## freyar (Oct 26, 2008)

Rogue 2?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 27, 2008)

Sure!


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2008)

Goblin Vampire, 2nd-level Bugbear Rogue
Medium Undead (Augmented Humanoid [Goblinoid])
Hit Dice: 5d12 (16 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (+3 Dex, +7 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+7
Attack: Claw +7 melee (1d4+4) or morningstar +7 melee (1d8+4) or javelin +6ranged (1d6+4)
Full Attack: 2 claws +7 melee (1d4+4) and bite +2 melee (1d6+2/x3) or morningstar +7 melee (1d8+4) or javelin +6 ranged (1d6+4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Augmented critical, create spawn, improved grab, sneak attack +1d6, terrifying gaze (DC 12)
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., diet dependent, evasion, scent, spell resistance 13, trapfinding, +2 turn resistance, undead traits, vulnerability to moonlight, vulnerability to obsidian
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +9, Will +0
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 17, Con -, Int 9, Wis 8, Cha 10
Skills: 18 bugbear skills plus 18 rogue skills (+4 racial bonus on Move Silently)
Feats: 2
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: Half coins; no goods; no items
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +6

The bugbear rogue presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 12.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 27, 2008)

Hm. Since goblin vampires have the terrifying gaze, and two out of three goblinoids have a racial penalty to Charisma, I'd be willing to either boost their Charisma or give them Ability Focus (terrifying gaze) as a bonus feat.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Hm. Since goblin vampires have the terrifying gaze, and two out of three goblinoids have a racial penalty to Charisma, I'd be willing to either boost their Charisma or give them Ability Focus (terrifying gaze) as a bonus feat.




I'd favor a Cha boost, since 1.) it's common among undead templates, and 2.) I'd like to leave Ability Focus as an option for rat-bastard DMs to boost the saves even higher.  

Cha +4?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 27, 2008)

I approve of Cha +4.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 18 bugbear skills plus 18 rogue skills (+4 racial bonus on Move Silently)
Bugbear skills:  Hide 6, Listen 3, Move Silently 6, Spot 3?
Rogue skills:  Intimidate 5, Listen 4, Spot 4, Tumble 5?

Feats: 2
Dodge, Improved Initiative?


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## freyar (Oct 28, 2008)

That all sounds great to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 28, 2008)

I was thinking Combat Reflexes and Improved Initiative for the feats, so it gets more AoOs on fleeing victims.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2008)

Updated.

I completely forgot the size increase!  That has now been corrected.

Hmmm...I'm thinking Dex +2 to offset the size decreases is approrpriate, since goblinoids are traditionally dextrous and often rogue-oriented. Also, I think we should add Multiattack as a bonus feat provided by the template, to increase the use of the bite.  Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 28, 2008)

Agreed to both.


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2008)

Same here.  Pretty much done after that?


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2008)

Updated.  Yeah, I think we're done.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2008)

Looks like it to me.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2008)

Great!

*Kasharin*
Climate/Terrain: Spelljammer (beholder tower)
Frequency: Rare
Organization: Community
Activity Cycle: All
Diet: Nil
Int: High (13-14)
Treasure: Nil
Alignment: Neutral evil
No. Appearing: 1-4
AC: 6
Movement: Fl 3 (B)
Hit Dice: 10
THAC0: 11
No. of Attacks: 1
Dmg/Attack: 2-12
Special Attacks: Deathcharm eye
Special Defenses: Nil
Magic Resistance: Nil
Size: M (4-6’ diameter)
Morale: Fearless (19-20)
XP Value: 3,000

The kasharin are those beholders who contracted the Blinding Rot disease and who survived long enough to seemingly die from the disease and not from beholder retaliation. (The Blinding Rot caused the beholders' eye stalks to wither and decay and subsequently fall off, leaving the beholder severely disabled if not dead. At least half of the beholders aboard the Spelljammer acquired the disease, but most of those afflicted were killed by their fellow beholdes during the early stages of the disease, so great is the race's xenophobia over any disparity in the eye tyrant race.)

The disease did not actually kill the creatures, but rather placed them in a state of living death. They still register as ilving beings acdording to the shivaks' ability to detect life, and thus they still receive food rations from the ship’s stores.  The kasharin operate on that thin edge between the living and the undead, but for how long they can remain so is unknown. Currently they are being cared for by the beholders in their tower; the kasrharin are given healing magics and minimum food rations to maintain their existence in the event that they can be made into servants for the Gray Eye (the leader of the beholders aboard the Spelljammer).

The kasharin appear to be blackened, burnt beholders, their scales curled and separated, apparently from some intense heat. Their eye stalks are charred and useless, but their central eye still remains intact and usable.

Combat: The beholder-mummies’ main form of attack is their central eye. It retains the range it had when alive, but the eye now bas a two-pronged attack. The eye acts as a powerful charm monster to those characters or creatures who are affected by such spells; to those who are not, it acts as an equally powerful ray of death magic.

Any who encounter the kasrharin make their saving throws at -4. If they can be charmed and fall their first saving throw, they continue to make all successive saving throws to shake off the charm at -4 as well.  Creatures and characters that cannot be charmed because of inner magic resistance or immunity must make a saving throw versus death magic at -4, with failure indicating immediate death.

Beholder-mummies can be turned or destroyed if confronted with sufficient clerical power. Treat them like ghosts or other 10 HD monsters.

Habitat/Society: The beholder-mummies retain their xenophobic hatred, but the hatred is now focused on all surviving living beholders. The kasharin's new state has, curiously enough, made them more forgiving toward the denizens of the undead, but these feelings occur only If the undead cannot otherwise affect the beholder-mummies.

Only beholders that have passed completely through the transformation caused by the Blinding Rot are considered "true" beholders by the kasharin. To them, the beholders of any subrace that have passed "the test" are now considered brethren, while any former (and living) relations are not, regardless of whether they were once the same subrace. The xenophobic hatred that drives multiple subraces apart in the world of the living beholder has been simplified to simply living versus unliving in the beholder-mummy world. The transformation to undead may prove to be a blessing in disguise for the strife-ridden beholder factions.

Ecology: The kasharin are products of the disease that has transformed them into their present state. They are changed both in body and in mind, yet they retain many of their natural beholder tendencies.

The beholders kept within the tower have now been metamorphosed into beholder-mummies, but the plague itself originally came from beyond the decks of the Spelljammer. It may be that there are colonies (and perhaps even entire planets) of beholders so infected somewhere in the Known Spheres.

The Blinding Rot was originally developed as an "ultimate unifier" of the beholder race. The philosophy behind its development is that it brings the beholders-every race, subrace, and sub-subrace-together in a single, unifying death.  Rising from the ashes of that death is a new race, a single race of beholder-mummies. All creatures of space must fall to the beholders, and now all the undead must fall to the beholder-mummies.

Originally appeared in Legend of Spelljammer (1991).


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## Echohawk (Oct 29, 2008)

Shade said:


> The disease did not actually kill the creatures, but rather placed them in a state of living death.



Deathless?


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2008)

Echohawk said:


> Deathless?




I hate to rain on your deathless parade yet again, but ...

"Beholder-mummies can be turned or destroyed if confronted with sufficient clerical power. Treat them like ghosts or other 10 HD monsters."

I'll owe you some deathless.


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## Echohawk (Oct 29, 2008)

*sniff*


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2008)

So should they be undead, or tomb-tainted aberrations?


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> So should they be undead, or tomb-tainted aberrations?




Hmmm...the latter almost seems the most appropriate.  Essentially, they are living creatures that can be turned/destroyed.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2008)

What do we want to do about the charm/fear eye? The problem is, most creatures immune to charms are also immune to death effects (constructs, undead). Shall we let them choose?


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## freyar (Oct 30, 2008)

I agree with the tomb-tainted aberration.  The original text is a bit unclear, but I think this makes the most sense.

Let's let them choose the effect of the eye.


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2008)

So, take a beholder, drop Int a tad, boost damage a bit (1d12 vs. 2e beholder's 1d8), and modifiy the special abilities?


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## freyar (Oct 30, 2008)

That's bite damage, I guess?  Maybe increase 1 step from a normal beholder?

I think that sounds basically like a plan.


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I reduced the beholder's Int score by 4.

I'm assuming all-around vision is lost with the eyestalks?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 30, 2008)

Definately. To compensate for the lost Int and reduced "mobile weapons platform" from the loss of the eyestalks, I think we should boost Str in addition to increasing base damage.


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2008)

Boost it by 4?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 30, 2008)

That's still only 14, which is sort of, well... pathetic. Let's make it 18 for starters. 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that these'll have a lower CR than an ordinary beholder?


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2008)

I'd expect, though a "death cone" from the central eye isn't bad.


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> That's still only 14, which is sort of, well... pathetic. Let's make it 18 for starters.




Agreed. 



demiurge1138 said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that these'll have a lower CR than an ordinary beholder?




Yeah, most likely.



freyar said:


> I'd expect, though a "death cone" from the central eye isn't bad.




Not bad, but less impressive than the disintegrate/finger of death combo that can fire in different directions, on top of the multiple other missile array of the "mobile weapons platform" (love that description, Demiurge!)


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2008)

Should we work on the central eye now?


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2008)

Sure!



> Special Attacks: Deathcharm eye
> 
> Combat: The beholder-mummies’ main form of attack is their central eye. It retains the range it had when alive, but the eye now bas a two-pronged attack. The eye acts as a powerful charm monster to those characters or creatures who are affected by such spells; to those who are not, it acts as an equally powerful ray of death magic.
> 
> Any who encounter the kasrharin make their saving throws at -4. If they can be charmed and fall their first saving throw, they continue to make all successive saving throws to shake off the charm at -4 as well.  Creatures and characters that cannot be charmed because of inner magic resistance or immunity must make a saving throw versus death magic at -4, with failure indicating immediate death.


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## freyar (Nov 1, 2008)

The way it reads, I think I'd make the charm a gaze attack.  The death cone can follow from the usual beholder antimagic cone, on or off at will.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2008)

That sounds like a good approach.


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## freyar (Nov 10, 2008)

Charming Gaze (Su): Charm (as charm monster), range X ft, Will save DC X negates.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

What do you think for the range?  The beholder's cone is 150 ft, but that seems a bit long for this.  Maybe 60 ft?


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2008)

150 feet doesn't bother me much, as it's essentially a "two-trick pony".  But I can live with reducing it to 60 feet if that's the consensus.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 21, 2008)

Let's go to 60ft.


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## freyar (Nov 21, 2008)

Since we're going 60 ft on the charm gaze, let's stick to 150 ft on the death cone.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2008)

How's this, then?

Deathcharm Eye (Su): A kasharin may choose to produce one of two effects from its central eye in a given round.  The first effect is a charming gaze (as charm monster) to a range of 60 ft. (Will DC 17 negates).  The second is a death gaze to a range of 120 ft. (Fort DC 17 negates).  The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 2, 2008)

That looks good!


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2008)

Updated.

Should we writeup Blinding Rot as a disease that only affects beholders and their kin?

We also have 33 skill ranks to allocate.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 2, 2008)

Why not stretch the intention of the original? Let them spread blinding rot through their bite. Against most creatures, the disease just causes Cha damage and blindness (and maybe gains the tomb-tainted SQ). A beholder infected, however, transforms into a kasharin when it hits 0 Cha


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2008)

Sure.  Normal disease or supernatural disease like mummy rot?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 3, 2008)

Supernatural, methinks.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2008)

Let's leave off the tomb-tainted part.  How does this look?

Blinding Rot (Su): Supernatural disease—bite, Fortitude DC x, incubation period 1 minute; damage 1d6 Cha and permanent blindness. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Unlike normal diseases, blinding rot continues until the victim reaches Charisma 0 or is cured as described below.  A beholder or beholderkin that reaches Charisma 0 immediately becomes a standard kasharin (regardless of its original size and subrace).  All other creatures reduced to Charisma 0 simply perish.

Blinding rot is a powerful curse, not a natural disease. A character attempting to cast any conjuration (healing) spell on a creature afflicted with blinding rot must succeed on a DC 20 caster level check, or the spell has no effect on the afflicted character.

To eliminate blinding rot, the curse must first be broken with break enchantment or remove curse (requiring a DC 20 caster level check for either spell), after which a caster level check is no longer necessary to cast healing spells on the victim, and the blinding rot can be magically cured as any normal disease.

An afflicted non-beholder who dies of blinding rot withers while its skin blackens and cracks until it eventually crumbles into a broken husk.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 3, 2008)

Looks good to me, although it occurs that the disease might also/instead affect Con. A beholder'll die a lot faster from Con damage than Charisma.


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2008)

Let's go with Con damage, I think.

Shouldn't it have 42 skill ranks? Like other beholders, Spot, Search, Hide, and Knowledge (arcana) would be good choices.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

freyar said:


> Let's go with Con damage, I think.




Sure.  Stick with 1d6 or tone in back to 1d4?



freyar said:


> Shouldn't it have 42 skill ranks? Like other beholders, Spot, Search, Hide, and Knowledge (arcana) would be good choices.




You are correct, and that skill set sounds good.

Vary from the beholder feats at all?  
Alertness (B), Flyby Attack, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 4, 2008)

Let's stick to 1d6, and beholder feats seem alright to me.


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2008)

Agreed to the feats.

Skill ranks: Hide 10, Knowledge (arcana) 12, Search 10, Spot 10?


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 13?  (Now that blinding rot is Con damage, I think it's almost on par with a regular beholder)


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 4, 2008)

Let's go 12. The beholder's versatility of death is really what boosts it to CR 13.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (Dec 5, 2008)

Looks good.  Ironic that this is probably a legit OGL beholder but the normal one isn't...


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2008)

While we're on this theme...

*Beholder zombie:* AC 7; MV FI 3 (B); HD 4; hp 20; #AT 1; Dmg 2-12 (chilling touch); AL N; THACO 17. A beholder zombie pursues for 2-12 rounds, after which time it gives up and settles back into the ash (although its eyes are no longer functional, the beholder zombie can sense the presence of the PCs). If the PCs repair its cracked shell (this takes 2-20 rounds), it also settles down.

If the PCs attack it, it attempts to bump into them; an active zombie beholder
can activate its chilling touch at will, with each touch inflicting 2-12 hp of damage (the victim may save vs. spells for half damage). An attacking zombie beholder continues to attack until it is destroyed or until its victims
have fled at least 100 feet. At that point, the zombie beholder becomes inactive again.

If the PCs examine a beholder corpse whose shell isn’t cracked, the corpse remains inactive. However, if they damage the shell in any way, it becomes a zombie beholder and attacks as described.

_Room 11 was used as a cemetery for the beholders who died of natural causes back when the Hive was under construction. This room's Incarnation, Xuu, is the caretaker, a job he takes seriously.

As part of their funeral customs, the beholders smooth a special blood-red salve over the bodies of their deceased comrades. The salve hardens into a tough, leathery shell that supposedly keeps the dead beholder's spirit contained and protected. (These beholders have no concept of an afterlife:
instead, they believe their spirits remain asleep in their bodies, dreaming
pleasant dreams for all eternity.)

This room is filled with the corpses of beholders encased in these bloodred shells. The corpses of commoners and workers are set out on Face 3, while the corpses of the beholder aristocracy reside in a special mausoleum on Face 6 (see the Encounters section below).

Within the last century, Xuu has noticed that some of the corpses' shells have begun to crack and chip. Xuu has dutifully patched them: there's plenty of red salve in the room for this purpose. But Xuu considers this to be menial work, beneath his dignity: after all, he's a supervisor, not a mere worker. He's ordered some of the undead that roam this room to take care of the 'repairs, but they do a sloppy job and Xuu invariably has to finish the job. Xuu longs for an intelligent creature to join him in the room and take charge of making the repairs._

Originally appeared in SJA1 Wildspace.


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## freyar (Dec 6, 2008)

I guess some weird kind of undead, huh?  Almost reminds me of a sluggish will-o-wisp with cold damage.  So 2d6 cold damage melee touch?  They seem to be blind but to have either blindsight or lifesense.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

Yeah, that sounds about right.

It also sounds like patching its shell renders it inert.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 8, 2008)

Right, but how would we handle that mechanically? That seems more like the "ghosts rejuvenate until their unfinished business is resolved".


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

Good point.

Shall we start with the basics?

It sounds like we take a beholder, reduce it to 4 HD, change to undead, drop all eye powers, and change from bite to touch.

Int is not given, but we can borrow the usual zombie Int —, Wis 10, Cha 1.

Sound reasonable?


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

Sounds like a plan.  Given the strict tactics, they sound mindless.

The patching doesn't quite sound like rejuvenation to me; there's nothing to indicate that they don't stay destroyed if you knock their hp to 0.  But somehow you have to get close enough to patch them without waking them up.  Need to think about that.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I retained the beholder's bonus Alertness feat, but we can drop it if you guys wish due to the blindness.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

Let's drop Alertness; I feel that regular beholders probably get it due to their many eyes (which reminds me, maybe we should drop Alertness from the kasharin, too; I think we kept it there).

Let's go with blindsense, I think.  It should be able to attack constructs and other undead that violate it.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Updated.

Its AC should probably drop significantly, as it will be a lower CR and only converts to AC 13.  Maybe +3 natural like a typical zombie of its size?  

Damage reduction 5/slashing like zombies?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

Question. How can their shells be patched if they rise up and attack anything that comes near them?


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

I'm guessing very carefully.  

I suppose you'd have to grapple one, while someone else did the patching.  It definitely doesn't sound worth the effort.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

I think the original text implies that they only attack once they've been attacked, actually.  Though I like the image of the caretaker guy wrestling 7-ft wide basketballs around while slapping mortar on them.   That brings up a question, though: what happens if you grapple something with a touch attack like these or a will-o-wisp?  Do you take auto-damage from them?  That sounds very old-school.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

It actually sounds like the damaged ones would attack. Like, bodies that the shellac had cracked or peeled off of.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Right, but only once attacked?  But they're passive when undamaged.  So I get the picture that a damaged one would attack when provoked and that attack an undamaged one could crack it, wake it up, and provoke it all at once.  Sound right?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

Sounds right to me.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

freyar said:


> Right, but only once attacked?  But they're passive when undamaged.  So I get the picture that a damaged one would attack when provoked and that attack an undamaged one could crack it, wake it up, and provoke it all at once.  Sound right?




Are we talking flavor text here, or an ability?


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2008)

Well, combat tactics, I guess.  Since these are mindless, we really need to include their strategy anyway.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

Updated.

CR 2?

Treasure: Double standard?  (Like beholders, assuming they are interred with their wealth)

Advancement: None?


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

Yes, yes, yes, then it's done.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

Yeah, this one was pretty simple mechanics-wise. Call it done.


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## Shade (Feb 3, 2009)

*Faerie, Seelie*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Shadow World, Cerilian forests
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Court
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any (Shadow World); nocturnal (Cerilia)
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Very to high (11–14)
TREASURE: W (G)
ALIGNMENT: Any nonevil
NO. APPEARING: 1–4
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 15, some Fl 15 (B)
HIT DICE: 4+2
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4 or by spell
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Seeming
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 25%
SIZE: Tiny to large (6" to 12' tall)
MORALE: Average (8–10)
BLOODLINE: None
BLOOD ABILITIES: None
PERCEPTION/SEEMING: Extraordinary/Extraordinary
XP VALUE: 2,000

Overview
Seelie faeries are among the Shadow World’s oldest and most numerous residents. The ancient fair folk are to this twilight land what the elves are to Cerilia, and are as in tune with the Seeming as the elves are with nature. Depending on which way the wind is blowing, seelie faeries might amuse, confuse, bemuse, or abuse adventurers. In fact, characters can count on only one certainty in a seelie encounter: It will prove interesting.

Physical Description
The physical appearance of seelie faeries cannot be generalized. Each is unique. They are tall, short, fat, thin, old, young, gargantuan, and diminutive. Some have wings, some have horns, some have tails or fins. Some look like small humanoids; others are bizarre composites of various life forms, bearing perhaps a pumpkin head, ivy hair, or goat hooves.

No one knows for certain whether members of the Seelie Court bear these characteristics for real, or whether the broad range of shapes, sizes, and features is the work of the Seeming. No other denizens of the Shadow World can manipulate the Seeming as they can. A few scholars posit that, were the Seeming stripped entirely from the Seelie Court, all these fanciful creatures would look exactly the same as each other—and very boring indeed.

Role in the Campaign
Seelie faeries will help or hinder characters as the whim strikes them. Their appearance can provide a catalyst for an adventure. They can offer cryptic hints toward the successful completion of a quest. Or they can slow down or beleaguer a party.

Though faeries may, at times, befriend player characters, the fair folk are too capricious and unpredictable to serve as reliable allies. Too-trusting PCs may, however, learn this truth the hard way. How seelie faeries treat PCs depends in no small part on how PCs treat them during an initial encounter. Kindness is repaid with kindness—sometimes tenfold. But woe betide the traveler who mistreats or insults a faerie, for that treatment, too, is more than repaid in kind.

Habitat/Society
Most seelie faeries live among the Seelie Court, a grand congregation of faerie folk. The Seelie Court resides deep in the Shadow World’s most enchanted forest. As no one who intentionally goes looking for the court ever finds it, many believe it to be a traveling court that brings its own enchantment into the various forests it enters. Occasionally, a traveler stumbles upon the Seelie Court accidentally. When this occurs, the faeries torment, test, or aid the traveler as their fancy strikes them. When the faeries are through, they lead the traveler out of the forest and cast a seelie spell of forgettingon the character. The traveler falls into a deep sleep; when the character awakens, she at best remembers the faerie encounter only as a dream and cannot find the way back to the court.

Though the Seelie Court comprises hundreds of faeries, travelers generally encounter them individually, far away from the court. Cerilian encounters are almost always single, particularly in the case of changelings (see separate entry). The fair folk don’t like to be seen; they can become invisible at will and often move about thus hidden from view. Detect invisibility, detect magic,or similar magic reveals them, as does a perception score within 10 points of the faerie’s Seeming score. A faerie might freely choose to reveal itself for some purpose, but never to an evil creature. Seelie faeries have the innate ability to discern the nature of those they encounter (per the know alignment spell).

Seelie faeries prize beauty, in both individuals and in objects. They often covet beautiful things, be they trinkets, treasure, or human children (see separate “Changeling” entry). They may offer aid in exchange for a traveler’s possession, or attempt to trick the individual out of it. The Seeming permeates the speech of seelie faeries as much as it does their appearances. The creatures love to talk in rhyme, riddles, and conundrums, making great use of double entendres and hidden meanings. There is always a grain of truth in anything a seelie faerie says—but often, one must search very hard to uncover it. In any seelie encounter, travelers must watch their own words as carefully as those of the faeries. Seelie law and codes of conduct are predicated on the literal interpretation of language—particularly oaths and promises. The faeries are famous for exacting promises from unwary travelers who don’t realize until too late what they’re getting themselves into. For example, an adventurer who makes the promise, “I will share my supper with you if you tell me how to reach the haunted castle” may well find the faerie showing up for dinner every night for the rest of the character’s life (or at least, until the faerie gets bored) in exchange for directions so encoded in doubletalk that the PC couldn’t even follow them.

Seelie faeries are bound, however, by the same literalness they use to torment others. Thus, a person who manages to find a loophole or technicality in an oath can manage to become extricated from it. Faeries are also thrown off-balance by erratic or unexpected behavior. Their guiding principle is, “If p, then q.” Add r to the equation, and they don’t know what hit them. In other words, the poor traveler with the constant supper companion could get rid of the unwanted guest simply by calling this evening meal “breakfast.” The bewildered creature won’t know what to think—but will be forced to admit defeat.

When a faerie demands an “either-or” decision with two unappealing choices, a wise person always tries to come up with a third, unanticipated option.

TYPES OF FAERIES
Though the very nature of seelie faeries defies summary and stereotype, some of them fall into a few broad, general categories.

The Deceiver
Some faeries intentionally try to deceive those they encounter. The creatures habitually give poor directions, misleading information, and bad advice. Though they do so not out of real malice—to them, it is all a grand game—their deceptions sometimes have dire consequences for travelers in a land where a single wrong turn could prove fatal.

The Innocent
Though all seelie faeries exhibit a certain amount of childlike innocence (as evidenced in their literal interpretation of speech), some carry it to an extreme. They tag along, asking “why” eighteen times in a row, poking and prodding at unfamiliar objects and people, letting curiosity guide them until the beleaguered traveler is driven to distraction. Innocents tend to be very young faeries (only a couple centuries old).

The Helper
Some faeries make a genuine effort to aid travelers they encounter. Usually, this philanthropy comes as the result of a kindness shown them by the recipient or other travelers who came before. (For example, a faerie might help a Khinasi adventurer because a century ago another Khinasi did it a good turn.) The helper may reveal itself to the recipient, or offer aid secretly (for example, magically replenishing a party’s diminishing rations while they sleep). The attempt at aid is not always successful—faeries have been known to inadvertently make a situation worse instead of better—but the intentions are good. The assistance is generally limited to a single instance.

The Protector
Occasionally, a faerie chooses to serve as a protector to an individual or party. Perhaps the faerie believes itself to be in the individual ’s debt (if, for example, the traveler saved the creature’s life or outsmarted it somehow). Or perhaps the faerie seeks to aid the person’s mission. Regardless of motive, the faerie watches over its charge from a distance, rendering aid or fending o ff harm as the need arises. As in the case of helper faeries, recipients of a faerie’s protection may not even be aware of the attention or its source. But unlike helpers, protectors stick with their self-appointed charges until their protection is no longer needed (for example, the recipient leaves the Shadow World) or the obligation is fulfilled (for example, the faerie saves a life in exchange for its own being saved).

The Trickster
While all faeries delight in puzzles and games (particularly verbal contests of wit) some turn every encounter into an opportunity for amusement—at the travelers’ expense. Such a creature tries to trap the unwary into commitments they would rather not keep or actions they would be wise not to take. Some of the ploys in a trickster’s arsenal are downright menacing, while others are meant merely to amuse the faerie. Rumplestiltskin’s bargain is an example of a trickster’s plot. Because one never knows whether a faerie might be a trickster, the wise individual exercises caution while speaking with any faerie. It is easier to avoid entering a trickster’s power than to extricate oneself from it.

Ecology
The seelie faeries were the first children of the Shadow World. Long ago, when the waking world and the Shadow World were one, a race known as the Sie (“see”) populated the land. These creatures were beings of great magic, innate wielders of both sorcery that worked with nature (priestly spells) and sorcery that broke the rules of nature (wizardly spells). They cast their spells not by the prayer of priests or the rote memorization of human wizards, but rather the gathering of magical energies (the process yet employed by today’s elves). The force that spilt the world into two halves was so strong that it also split the land’s inhabitants, ripping the Sie in twain. Each creature became two separate entities—a faerie (seelie) in the Shadow World and an elf (Sidhe) in Cerilia. The seelie retained control of natural magic and gained power over a new force in the Shadow World: the Seeming. The Sidhe retained control of wizardly magic and became bound to the land itself. 

Though the ancient link between the two peoples has long since been forgotten by all but the Faerie Queen (the only surviving Sie), to this day, when an elf is born in Cerilia, a new faerie appears in the Seelie Court. While it is possible that a traveling elf or faerie could meet its counterpart, no one knows what would happen in such an extraordinary event. Unless slain, seelie faeries are immortal in the Shadow World but mortal in Cerilia.  Conversely, elves are immortal in Cerilia but mortal in the Shadow World. The faeries are as attuned to the nature of the Shadow World as elves are to Cerilia. This link enables them to exist in such a hostile environment with virtually no natural predators. The evil of the Shadow World , however, holds plenty of unnatural ones.

Seelie faeries are generally vegetarians, subsisting primarily on fruits, nuts, roots, and seeds. They do, however, eat meat when it is offered to them. The fair folk have an aversion to milk—a means by which savvy individuals have been known to expose a faerie so masked in the Seeming that its identity was otherwise indeterminable.

Variations
In addition to their link to Cerilian elves, seelie faeries have an evil counterpart: the unseelie faeries (see separate entry). Brownies, leprechauns, and sprites (see the MONSTROUSMANUAL volume) are all types of seelie faeries.

Combat and Other Encounters
Seelie faeries rarely engage in direct combat, preferring to mire their opponents in confusion and deleterious promises. Should they need to physically defend themselves, however, the fair folk are well able to do so.

Combat
Their ability to turn invisible often enables seelie faeries to gain surprise. The fair folk, being often small of stature and lacking in great strength, avoid melee combat at all costs. Should they have to defend themselves so directly, some carry a small knife or dagger capable of inflicting 1d4 points of damage. Faeries prefer, however, to use their spellcasting abilities and the Seeming to attack and defend themselves. They can cast any priestly enchantment/charm spell of 1st or 2nd level, plus create water, entangle, faerie fire, light, protection from evil, purify food and drink, shillelagh; barkskin, goodberry, produce flame, speak with animals, warp wood; continual light, create food and water, pyrotechnics, seelie spell of forgetting, tree, water walk. They can cast five spells per day, and the seelie spell of forgetting an unlimited number of times.

In addition to their spellcasting abilities, seelie faeries make liberal use of the Seeming to defend themselves with a host of illusions (described at right).

The fair folk are especially vulnerable to iron weapons; such instruments inflict an additional 3 points of damage per hit. Salt thrown on a faerie renders it unable to turn invisible for 1d4 turns.

Peaceful Encounters
When a faerie approaches a traveler, it is usually with some purpose in mind—begging aid, issuing warnings, or perhaps seeking mischief. They may appear to travelers in need, perhaps having secretly followed them for miles or days. Or they might make themselves known when an adventurer inadvertently trespasses into a faerie’s territory. Faeries who do not wish to be discovered seldom are.

Often, encounters with faeries are less direct. The fair folk may work their magic on unwary travelers without ever being seen.

Perception and/or Seeming
The seelie faeries are true creatures of the Seeming, manipulating it as few denizens of the Shadow World can. In combat, they use it to alter their appearance into intimidating, menacing figures—perhaps towering over opponents, swiping with razorlike claws, or breathing jets of flame. In other encounters, they may speak in booming voices, create sweet or unpleasant odors, or alter terrain to block a traveler’s path. While others’ control of the Seeming may be limited to effects on one or two senses, seelie faeries can affect all five.

SEELIE SPELL OF FORGETTING
(Enchantment/Charm)
Spell Level: 3
Sphere: Charm
Range: 50 yards
Components: V, S, M
Duration: Permanent
Casting Time: 3
Area of Effect: 50 ft. cube
Saving Throw: Special

This spell, which can be cast only by members of the Seelie Court, enables the caster to erase the recipient’s memory of time spent among the faeries. Saving throw adjustments are based on the victim’s perception score: a +3 penalty for no perception, a +2 penalty for slight, a +1 penalty for lesser, no adjustment for middling, a –1 bonus for greater, and a –2 bonus for extraordinary. Should the recipient succeed at a saving throw vs. spell, he or she recalls the faerie encounter as a dream. Failure means the recipient remembers nothing.

Should the victim recall anything, the memory is hazy and seems not quite real. The character cannot recollect names, locations, directions, or any other specifics unless the caster so desires. For example, a faerie might cast this spell on a lost traveler to make him or her forget the faerie’s name and the location of the Seelie Court, but may allow the character to remember directions to the nearest safe haven.

If the recipient again encounters a faerie or place “forgotten” as a result of this spell, he or she experiences a sense of deja vu, but does not recall specifics. 

The spell does not negate charm, suggestion, geas, quest,o r similar effects the recipient may have entered into during time spent among the faeries. The character does, however, forget the circumstances and the spellcaster that bound him or her with such magic.

Only a limited wish or wish can enable someone to recall experiences erased by this spell.

The material component of this spell is one pinch of faerie dust per recipient.

Originally appeared in Blood Spawn (1992).


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2009)

Extraplanar fey with a lot of illusion powers?  Given that "Brownies, leprechauns, and sprites (see the MONSTROUSMANUAL volume) are all types of seelie faeries," should we make this a template or grouping of several types of fey with shared features?


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2009)

I'll admit, this one has me a bit baffled.  It seems more like a chapter in a _Lords of Madness_ style book on fey than a single creature entry.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 5, 2009)

The Dragon Compendium already did these guys as a seelie and unseelie fey template.


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2009)

I don't think that the DCv1 seelie fey are these, though.  The SLAs are quite different, and the feel is a bit different, too.  For one thing, even though the alignment listing here is "any nonevil," the literalness issue sounds somewhat lawful, which is not an issue with the seelie fey in DCv1.

I guess I'd need to know the entries for brownies, leprechauns, and sprites from the Monstrous Manual to figure out what to do with this.  And some info on the Seeming would help, too.

We can also get inspiration from WotC's Fey Feature archive.


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## Echohawk (Feb 5, 2009)

Shade said:


> I'll admit, this one has me a bit baffled.  It seems more like a chapter in a _Lords of Madness_ style book on fey than a single creature entry.



Many of the entries in _Blood Spawn_ are like that.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

Hmmm...what if we make them a "cafeteria style" creature?  Not necessarily a template, but something more like hordelings where you have base stats for each size, then select varying abilities?   We could tie them into "packages" for the given types (deceiver, protector, etc.).

Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 7, 2009)

Hm... could work, could work. The hordelings in Dungeon Magazine (which issue was that? It was the one with The Whispering Cairn in it) were good enough that I use them in replacement of my own. We should draw on them for some outlines.


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## freyar (Feb 8, 2009)

Can't say I know the hordelings, but this is an appealing idea.  Really, these don't seem like a template, but there is a variety here.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2009)

For starters, I suppose we'll need generic stat blocks for seelie fey from Diminutive to Huge size.

I'd recommend we don't stick with 4 HD across the board, like the original text, though.   Suggestions?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 9, 2009)

Agreed that 4 HD across the board is silly. That could be our Small HD, though.

Diminutive: 1 HD
Tiny: 2 HD
Small: 4 HD
Medium: 6 HD
Large: 10 HD
Huge: 15 HD


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## freyar (Feb 9, 2009)

That sounds like a sensible range.  Agreed to those HD.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2009)

Shall we pick a base set of ability scores at each size category, then allow for changes based on random (or picked) characteristics, like the hordelings?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 9, 2009)

That sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2009)

Here are ability scores for a variety of fey...

Shadovig (D): Str 3, Dex 22, Con 10 (12 in darkness), Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 9 (11 in darkness)
Spark (D): Str 4, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 12
Sleeping Blossom Sprites (D swarm): Str 4, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 8, Wis 9, Cha 21
Grig (T): Str 5, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 14
Petal (T): Str 3, Dex 20, Con 15, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 18
Jermlaine (T): Str 3, Dex 17, Con 8, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 5
Brownie (T): Str 5, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 13
Boggart (S): Str 9, Dex 25, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 16
Nixie (S): Str 7, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 18
Pixie (S): Str 7, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 16
Spriggan, Natural Form (S): Str 10, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 11, Wis 9, Cha 11
Dryad (M): Str 10, Dex 19, Con 11, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 18
Nymph (M): Str 10, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 19
Satyr (M): Str 10, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 13
Fossergrim (M): Str 15, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 18
Oread (M): Str 19, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 16
Shadar-Kai (M): Str 10, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 9
Sirine (M): Str 10, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 17
Glaistig (M): Str 12, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 19
Splinterwaif (M): Str 11, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 16
Redcap, Young (M): Str 14, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 13
Redcap, Elder (M): Str 22, Dex 21, Con 22, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 13
Joystealker (M incorporeal): Str -, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 19
Banshrae (M): Str 16, Dex 24, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 20
Frostwind Virago (M): Str 17, Dex 22, Con 20, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 20
Jaebrin Trickster (M): Str 10, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 15, Wis 8, Cha 12
Ruin Chanter (M): Str 20, Dex 25, Con 23, Int 18, Wis 17, Cha 25
Shaedling (M): Str 10, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 16
Kelpie (L): Str 24, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 14
Spriggan, Enlarged Form (L):  Str 18, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 11, Wis 9, Cha 11
Ragewalker (L): Str 19, Dex 25, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 24
Lunar Ravager (L): Str 23, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 8
Master of the Hunt (L): Str 35, Dex 40, Con 38, Int 20, Wis 30, Cha 35
Force of Nature (H): Str 27, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 20 
Ocean Strider (H): Str 19, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 22, Cha 14
Spirit of the Land (H incorporeal): Str -, Dex 13, Con 30, Int 20, Wis 19, Cha 25
Usunag (H): Str 12, Dex 26, Con 18, Int 13, Wis 17, Cha 23
Zeitgeist (H incorporeal): Str -, Dex 13, Con 30, Int 22, Wis 16, Cha 25


We can probably just find some average scores for each size category.


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2009)

How about...

Diminutive: Str 3, Dex 22, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 12
Tiny: Str 5, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 14
Small: Str 7, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 16
Medium: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 18
Large: Str 18, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 20
Huge: Str 22, Dex 12, Con 20, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 23


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 10, 2009)

I like it!


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## freyar (Feb 10, 2009)

Agreed!  And then some bonus/penalty scheme depending on the archetype?  So that we're doing a set of monsters and a set of mini-templates... Sure!


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.



> Physical Description
> The physical appearance of seelie faeries cannot be generalized. Each is unique. They are tall, short, fat, thin, old, young, gargantuan, and diminutive. Some have wings, some have horns, some have tails or fins. Some look like small humanoids; others are bizarre composites of various life forms, bearing perhaps a pumpkin head, ivy hair, or goat hooves.




Shall we borrow the hordeling's random chart approach (essentially, 1d6 traits for Head, Head Adornment, Overall Visage, Ears, Eye Color, Eyes, Nose, Mouth, Appearance of Torso, Neck, Back, Tail, Arms, Legs, Hands, Feet, Body Coloration, Skin)?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 10, 2009)

Yeah! More tables!


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Yeah! More tables!



  Why not?


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2009)

Fill in the blanks...

Wings
1 - Gossamer
2 - Butterfly
3 - Bat
4 - 
5 - 
6 - None?

Head
1 - Humanoid
2 - Pumpkin
3 - Animal
4 - 
5 - 
6 -

Head Adornment
1 - Horns
2 - Antennae
3 - Feathers
4 - 
5 -
6 - 

Hair
1 - Ivy
2 - Silken
3 - 
4 - 
5 - 
6 - Bald

Tail
1 - Catlike
2 - Rabbitlike
3 - Foxlike
4 - 
5 -
6 - None

Feel free to add more categories!


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2009)

Let's split humanoid heads into elf, human, and goblin, and animal heads into canine and deer/elk.

I'd add more, but I'm guessing most of what I'm coming up with now is better for unseelie.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 12, 2009)

I like the idea of a frog head.

Wings--bird, bee

Tail--none on a 4-6

Hair--changes color, spikey


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

Great ideas...keep 'em coming.

Also, we don't have to stop at 1d6.  That's just what the hordeling template used.

Legs
1 - Humanoid
2 - Insectile
3 - Goatlike
4 - Mermaid tail
5 - Cluster of vines
6 - 

Feet
1 - Humanoid
2 - Humanoid, but six-toed
3 - Cloven
4 - Clubfoot
5 - Talons
6 -


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2009)

Legs - Serpent tail?
Feet - Feline
Head adornment - leaves, blooms, motes of light?


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

Updated.

We can keep filling in those tables as inspiration strikes, but let's visit the abilities...



> They can cast any priestly enchantment/charm spell of 1st or 2nd level, plus create water, entangle, faerie fire, light, protection from evil, purify food and drink, shillelagh; barkskin, goodberry, produce flame, speak with animals, warp wood; continual light, create food and water, pyrotechnics, seelie spell of forgetting, tree, water walk. They can cast five spells per day, and the seelie spell of forgetting an unlimited number of times.




Simplify it to "pick five SLAs from this list"?   Make seelie spell of forgetting a unique SLA?



> Though the Seelie Court comprises hundreds of faeries, travelers generally encounter them individually, far away from the court. Cerilian encounters are almost always single, particularly in the case of changelings (see separate entry). The fair folk don’t like to be seen; they can become invisible at will and often move about thus hidden from view. Detect invisibility, detect magic,or similar magic reveals them, as does a perception score within 10 points of the faerie’s Seeming score. A faerie might freely choose to reveal itself for some purpose, but never to an evil creature. Seelie faeries have the innate ability to discern the nature of those they encounter (per the know alignment spell).




Invisible as an at-will SLA, or greater invisibility like the pixie?

Detect chaos/evil/good/law always active?



> The fair folk are especially vulnerable to iron weapons; such instruments inflict an additional 3 points of damage per hit. Salt thrown on a faerie renders it unable to turn invisible for 1d4 turns.




Stick with usual DR/cold iron?

Salt vunerability could be rolled into the invisiblity.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 12, 2009)

Regular invisibility, DR/cold iron, pick any five from the list. I like the salt thing a lot.


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2009)

I like all that, too.  Spell of forgetting should definitely be a unique SLA.  While I'm not sure about the pick 5 SLAs, but that seems simpler than other alternatives I can come up with.


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2009)

We could also have "packages" of spell-like abilities based upon the fey's theme, like deceiver, protector, and whatnot.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 13, 2009)

Good idea on the packages. That I like.


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2009)

Shade said:


> We could also have "packages" of spell-like abilities based upon the fey's theme, like deceiver, protector, and whatnot.



That seems best and is really along the lines of what you mentioned earlier, too.


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

Here are the categories again...



> The Deceiver
> Some faeries intentionally try to deceive those they encounter. The creatures habitually give poor directions, misleading information, and bad advice. Though they do so not out of real malice—to them, it is all a grand game—their deceptions sometimes have dire consequences for travelers in a land where a single wrong turn could prove fatal.






> The Innocent
> Though all seelie faeries exhibit a certain amount of childlike innocence (as evidenced in their literal interpretation of speech), some carry it to an extreme. They tag along, asking “why” eighteen times in a row, poking and prodding at unfamiliar objects and people, letting curiosity guide them until the beleaguered traveler is driven to distraction. Innocents tend to be very young faeries (only a couple centuries old).






> The Helper
> Some faeries make a genuine effort to aid travelers they encounter. Usually, this philanthropy comes as the result of a kindness shown them by the recipient or other travelers who came before. (For example, a faerie might help a Khinasi adventurer because a century ago another Khinasi did it a good turn.) The helper may reveal itself to the recipient, or offer aid secretly (for example, magically replenishing a party’s diminishing rations while they sleep). The attempt at aid is not always successful—faeries have been known to inadvertently make a situation worse instead of better—but the intentions are good. The assistance is generally limited to a single instance.






> The Protector
> Occasionally, a faerie chooses to serve as a protector to an individual or party. Perhaps the faerie believes itself to be in the individual ’s debt (if, for example, the traveler saved the creature’s life or outsmarted it somehow). Or perhaps the faerie seeks to aid the person’s mission. Regardless of motive, the faerie watches over its charge from a distance, rendering aid or fending o ff harm as the need arises. As in the case of helper faeries, recipients of a faerie’s protection may not even be aware of the attention or its source. But unlike helpers, protectors stick with their self-appointed charges until their protection is no longer needed (for example, the recipient leaves the Shadow World) or the obligation is fulfilled (for example, the faerie saves a life in exchange for its own being saved).






> The Trickster
> While all faeries delight in puzzles and games (particularly verbal contests of wit) some turn every encounter into an opportunity for amusement—at the travelers’ expense. Such a creature tries to trap the unwary into commitments they would rather not keep or actions they would be wise not to take. Some of the ploys in a trickster’s arsenal are downright menacing, while others are meant merely to amuse the faerie. Rumplestiltskin’s bargain is an example of a trickster’s plot. Because one never knows whether a faerie might be a trickster, the wise individual exercises caution while speaking with any faerie. It is easier to avoid entering a trickster’s power than to extricate oneself from it.




Here is the SLA list to choose from...



> They can cast any priestly enchantment/charm spell of 1st or 2nd level, plus create water, entangle, faerie fire, light, protection from evil, purify food and drink, shillelagh; barkskin, goodberry, produce flame, speak with animals, warp wood; continual light, create food and water, pyrotechnics, seelie spell of forgetting, tree, water walk. They can cast five spells per day, and the seelie spell of forgetting an unlimited number of times.




Feel free to expand on that list to better fit the themes.


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## freyar (Feb 17, 2009)

Quick thoughts:

Deceiver -- should have plenty of illusions
Innocent -- not sure
Helper -- things like goodberry, purify food and drink, create food and water, etc.
Protector -- some abjurations, maybe some enchantments to drive things away
Trickster -- enchantments, I think.  Maybe some destructive stuff.


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

Thinking further, perhaps the lists should be based on size/Hit Dice as well?  Thus a Huge trickster would have access to tougher SLAs than the relatively weak Diminutive trickster?


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## freyar (Feb 17, 2009)

Perhaps for  each archetype, have a list that is cumulative by HD?  Sort of like the seelie/unseelie fey in DCv1, but multiple tables?


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

Sure, something like this?

Spell-Like Abilities:  A deceiver gains the following spell-like abilities.  These abilities are cumulative, so a Medium deceiver gains the abilities of Small, Tiny, and Diminutive deceivers.  Caster level equals deceiver's Hit Dice.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Diminutive: dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation
Tiny: magic aura, silent image, ventriloquism
Small: minor image, mirror image, misdirection, phantom trap
Medium: hallucinatory terrain, major image, secret page
Large: illusory wall, mirage arcana, persistent image
Huge: maze, mislead, project image, veil


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 18, 2009)

Something like that. That's a huge load of SLAs, though, so perhaps we should "choose two" for most levels.


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2009)

Agreed to choose 2.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

Help fill in the blanks...

Spell-Like Abilities: A seelie faerie gains spell-like abilities based upon its theme (deceiver, helper, and so forth). The seelie faerie gains two spell-like abilities at Diminutive size, and two additional spell-like abilities for each size category greater.  Thus, a Medium deceiver gains the abilities of Small, Tiny, and Diminutive deceivers. Caster level equals faerie's Hit Dice. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Deceivers choose from the following list:
Diminutive: dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation
Tiny: magic aura, silent image, ventriloquism
Small: minor image, mirror image, misdirection, phantom trap
Medium: hallucinatory terrain, major image, secret page
Large: illusory wall, mirage arcana, persistent image
Huge: maze, mislead, project image, veil 

Innocents choose from the following list:
Diminutive: x
Tiny: x
Small: x
Medium: x
Large: x
Huge: x

Helpers choose from the following list:
Diminutive: mending
Tiny: remove fear
Small: aid, goodberry
Medium: create food and water
Large: repel vermin
Huge: find the path

Protectors choose from the following list:
Diminutive: resistance
Tiny: sanctuary
Small: shield other
Medium: protection from energy
Large: spell resistance
Huge: mind blank 

Tricksters choose from the following list:
Diminutive: faerie fire, ghost sound, prestidigitation
Tiny: entangle
Small: misdirection
Medium: warp wood
Large: confusion
Huge: maze, mislead, repel gravity


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2009)

A few possible additions:

Helper
Diminutive - purify food and drink, message
Tiny - endure elements, unseen servant
Small - delay poison
Medium - remove disease, locate object
Large - neutralize poison, locate creature
Huge - mass cure light wounds, restoration


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## GrayLinnorm (Feb 19, 2009)

Diminutive Innocent (or helper if it doesn't already have enough): light

Large Trickster: baleful polymorph

Tiny Trickster: grease, Tasha's hideous laughter


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2009)

Small trickster - hideous laughter, daze monster?
Medium trickster - deep slumber, maybe quench?


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2009)

Updated.


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2009)

Let's work on this unique SLA...

SEELIE SPELL OF FORGETTING
(Enchantment/Charm)
Spell Level: 3
Sphere: Charm
Range: 50 yards
Components: V, S, M
Duration: Permanent
Casting Time: 3
Area of Effect: 50 ft. cube
Saving Throw: Special

This spell, which can be cast only by members of the Seelie Court, enables the caster to erase the recipient’s memory of time spent among the faeries. Saving throw adjustments are based on the victim’s perception score: a +3 penalty for no perception, a +2 penalty for slight, a +1 penalty for lesser, no adjustment for middling, a –1 bonus for greater, and a –2 bonus for extraordinary. Should the recipient succeed at a saving throw vs. spell, he or she recalls the faerie encounter as a dream. Failure means the recipient remembers nothing.

Should the victim recall anything, the memory is hazy and seems not quite real. The character cannot recollect names, locations, directions, or any other specifics unless the caster so desires. For example, a faerie might cast this spell on a lost traveler to make him or her forget the faerie’s name and the location of the Seelie Court, but may allow the character to remember directions to the nearest safe haven.

If the recipient again encounters a faerie or place “forgotten” as a result of this spell, he or she experiences a sense of deja vu, but does not recall specifics. 

The spell does not negate charm, suggestion, geas, ques ,or similar effects the recipient may have entered into during time spent among the faeries. The character does, however, forget the circumstances and the spellcaster that bound him or her with such magic.

Only a limited wish or wish can enable someone to recall experiences erased by this spell.

The material component of this spell is one pinch of faerie dust per recipient.


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## freyar (Feb 23, 2009)

Before I get into the spell, how about adding horse mane to the hair list?

This spell almost looks like a 3.X writeup. We should change over to a Will save, and the only other mechanic that needs modification is the "perception score."  I think I have Blood Spawn with me on my trip this week, so I'll see if I can look at that tonight.


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2009)

> *The Seeming Score*
> 
> Whenever heroes encounter a creature or phenomenon of the Shadow World, they must deal with its Seeming score. A Seeming score is like a bloodline strength score — it can be measured both numerically and by level, as seen in the table below:
> 
> ...




I think it would be easier to just stick with Will saves (and maybe racial bonuses) than try to interpret this subsystem within the creature entry.


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## freyar (Feb 25, 2009)

Thanks for posting that, been a busy week!

I agree about the Will saves.  Maybe racial bonuses for fey, humanoid (elf), anyone else?  Or creatures that don't sleep (that would cover elves and I guess fey)?


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2009)

The "don't sleep" idea would be great...except "Fey eat, sleep, and breathe".  

Anyhow, here's a rough draft...

Seelie Spell of Forgetting (Sp):  At will, a seelie faerie may create up to a 50-foot cube of showering pixie dust.  This effect must originate within 150 feet of the seelie faerie.  All creatures within the pixie dust must succeed on a DC X Will save or have its memory of time spent among the faeries erased.  With a successful save, a creature recalls the faerie encounter as a dream. Failure results in complete memory loss pertaining to the faerie encounter.  Should the victim recall anything, the memory is hazy and seems not quite real. The character cannot recollect names, locations, directions, or any other specifics unless the seelie faerie so desires. For example, a seelie faerie might cast this spell on a lost traveler to make him or her forget the faerie’s name and the location of the Seelie Court, but may allow the character to remember directions to the nearest safe haven.

If the recipient again encounters a faerie or place “forgotten” as a result of this spell, he or she experiences a sense of deja vu, but does not recall specifics. 

The spell does not negate other spell effects resulting from time spent among the faeries (thus, a recipient of a geas would still be under the geas). The character does, however, forget the circumstances and the spellcaster that bound him or her with such magic.

A limited wish, miracle, or wish can restore the lost memories.

This is a mind-affecting, charm effect, and is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell.  The save DC is Charisma-based.  Fey gain a +4 bonus on their saves, while elves and druids gain a +2 bonus.


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## freyar (Feb 27, 2009)

I like it!  I could almost see fey being immune, what do you think?


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2009)

Yeah, that makes sense to me.


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## freyar (Mar 3, 2009)

Shall we do that, then?


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

Updated.

Is that all the special abilities (other than finishing up the SLA lists)?


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2009)

Uhh, I think so.   These are kind-of complicated, huh?


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

Just a tad.  Nothing like the false keraptis chain o' critters.  

Actually, we should probably allow for some random traits like the hordling abilities.   Things that give 'em claw attacks, bite attacks, greater strenght, and the like.

Here are some examples from the hordling entry:

All hordlings have a number of hordling abilities equal to half their Hit Dice (minimum of one). Thus, the standard six Hit Die hordling has three abilities. When determining abilities, roll d% and consult the following table. Most hordling abilities do not stack, so if you roll a duplicate that doesn't stack with itself simply re-roll until you get one that works.

Additional Arms: The hordling gains an additional arm, along with one more claw attack.

Armored: The hordling's natural armor bonus improves by an amount equal to half its Hit Dice.

Bite Attack: The hordling gains a bite attack as a secondary attack that does 1d8 points of damage on a hit.

Breath Weapon: The hordling gains a 15-foot cone-shaped breath weapon, usable once a minute. The DC to save against is 10 + half the hordling's Hit Dice + its Constitution modifier. A character who fails a Fortitude save against the breath weapon becomes nauseated for 1d6 rounds and takes 1d6 points of Strength damage.


We could gather some common concepts from other fey creatures, such as special arrows/musical equipment, dependency on certain terrain types, unearthly grace, wild empathy, and so on.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

Here are some ideas...

Greater Musical Instrument (Su):  The seelie faerie possesses a magical musical instrument. When it plays, all creatures within a 60-foot spread (except fey) must succeed on a Will save or be affected by irresistable dance (caster level equals faerie's HD; the faerie chooses the tune and its effect). In the hands of other beings, this instrument has no special powers. A creature that successfully saves against any of the instrument's effects cannot be affected by the same instrument for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Musical Instrument (Su):  The seelie faerie possesses a magical musical instrument. When it plays, all creatures within a 60-foot spread (except fey) must succeed on a Will save or be affected by charm person, sleep, or fear (caster level equals faerie's HD; the faerie chooses the tune and its effect). In the hands of other beings, this instrument has no special powers. A creature that successfully saves against any of the instrument's effects cannot be affected by the same instrument for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Special Arrows:  The seelie faerie gains proficiency with the longbow and may employ arrows that deal no damage but can perform one of the following effects.

Memory Loss: An opponent struck by this arrow must succeed on a DC 15 Will save or lose all memory. The save DC is Charisma-based and includes a +2 racial bonus. The subject retains skills, languages, and class abilities but forgets everything else until he or she receives a heal spell or memory restoration with limited wish, wish, or miracle.

Sleep: Any opponent struck by this arrow, regardless of Hit Dice, must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or be affected as though by a sleep spell. The save DC is Charisma-based and includes a +2 racial bonus.

Terrain Feature Dependent (Su): The seelie faerie is mystically bound to a single terrain feature (such as a tree, pool, hill, etc.) and must never stray more than 300 yards from it.  If it does, it becomes ill and dies within 4d6 hours. The seelie faerie's dependent terrain feature does not radiate magic. 

Unearthly Grace (Su): The seelie faerie adds its Charisma modifier as a bonus on all its saving throws, and as a deflection bonus to its Armor Class.

Wild Empathy (Ex): This power works like the druid’s wild empathy class feature, except that the seelie faerie has a +6 racial bonus on the check.


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## freyar (Mar 6, 2009)

Nice!  I think you can take "chooses the effect" out of the greater musical instrument, as there's only one effect.   So each seelie fey gets a one or more?

I guess we should get back to the SLAs soon...


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## Shade (Mar 6, 2009)

> Nice! I think you can take "chooses the effect" out of the greater musical instrument, as there's only one effect. So each seelie fey gets a one or more?




Or we could come up with some other higher-powered effects from which to choose.


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## freyar (Mar 6, 2009)

Hideous laughter would be another good fey-ish one.

For those SLAs:
Innocents
Diminutive - prestidigitation, message
Tiny - ventriloquism, comprehend languages, calm animals
...


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2009)

Updated.


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

I like that d% chart!  I'm a bit tired to fill in much tonight, though (this is a massive project!).  Here are a couple things:

Let's put in the hair table 5 - horse mane.  For wings, 6 - none is good with me.

I think we should take out the DC X from the Spell of Forgetting, given the range of Cha we'll have.  But we can list the DC in the statblock if you want (given there's no elite faerie Cha bonus on any of those).


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Sounds good.

Innocents choose from the following list:
Diminutive: light, message, prestidigitation
Tiny: calm animals, comprehend languages, ventriloquism
Small: detect thoughts, discern lies, enlarge person, reduce person
Medium: clairaudience/clairvoyance, glibness, haste, slow
Large: locate creature, modify memory, true seeing
Huge: irresistible dance, mass suggestion, prying eyes

Look OK?


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

Fine by me.

Protectors:
Diminutive - detect poison, virtue
Tiny - protection from evil, alarm
Small - protection from arrows, resist energy
Medium - helping hand, magic vestment


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Great!

Updated.

Continuing protector...
Large: break enchantment, greater heroism, spell resistance
Huge: globe of invulnerability, heroes' feast, mind blank 

DR 5/cold iron for Diminutive through Medium, 10/cold iron for Large, and 15/cold iron for Huge?

SR = CR+11 across the board?


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

All sounds good.  I guess we should wrap up the abilities d% table.  Should we call that something else besides "abilities," btw?  Regarding those, I suppose most of my ideas are along the lines of bonus feats/racial bonuses to skills.  Any better ideas?


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

How about "Special Attacks and Qualities", since that's what most are?

Other ideas:

- Resilient:  The faerie gains one of the following bonus feats, chosen randomly:  Great Fortitude, Iron Will, or Lightning Reflexes.  (can be gained more than once)

- Easily Forgotten:  The faerie gains a +2 racial bonus on the save DC of its seelie spell of forgetting ability.

- Mystical:  The faerie gains an additional spell-like ability based upon its theme (can be gained more than once)

- Multi-layered:  The faerie isn't easily categorized, and may select an additional theme from which to choose its spell-like abilities.  (can be gained more than once)

- Animal Companion:  The faerie gains an animal companion as if it were a ranger of a level equal to its Hit Dice.

- Trackless Step:  As the druid class feature.

- Spritelike:  The faerie gains Dodge and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats.

- Woodland Stride:  As the druid class feature.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2009)

Good suggestions all!


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Updated.



> The fair folk, being often small of stature and lacking in great strength, avoid melee combat at all costs. Should they have to defend themselves so directly, some carry a small knife or dagger capable of inflicting 1d4 points of damage.




Give 'em daggers for the melee attacks at each size category?  Maybe longbows (like pixies and grigs) for the ranged weapon?

Treasure:  Standard (like dryads and nymphs) or No coins; 50% goods; 50% items (like sprites)?   Maybe the former for Medium and larger, the latter for Small and smaller?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2009)

Agreed to all that.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2009)

Same here!  These are shaping up finally.


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## Melatuis (Mar 11, 2009)

Can the Campaign Setting be added to were the original monster appear?

Thank you


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2009)

Hi, Melatuis, these are Birthright if you're wondering.  But I'm sure Shade can add that.

Skills: I think these should all max out Listen, Spot, Hide, Move Silently, and probably Knowledge (nature).  I almost wonder if the other skills should be packages associated with the themes, though.  Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 11, 2009)

Good idea associating skills with packages.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2009)

Everyone agreed on those 5 skills as ones all seelie fey should max out?

These are ending up like true dragons in terms of complexity.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2009)

Sounds like a great plan.

Here's a start...

All seelie faeries:  Concentration, Hide, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Spot.

Deceivers:  Bluff, Disguise, Forgery, Perform (comedy), Sense Motive

Helpers:  Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Heal, Search, Survival

Innocents: Disable Device, Escape Artist, Open Lock, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device

Protectors:  Handle Animal, Heal, Search, Survival, Use Rope

Tricksters:  Bluff, Disguise, Perform (comedy), Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2009)

Need to run, but that looks pretty good.  We should specify the order that these are added (since the different sizes can max out different numbers of skills).


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 11, 2009)

Add Sense Motive to the helpers and I love it!


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2009)

freyar said:


> Need to run, but that looks pretty good.  We should specify the order that these are added (since the different sizes can max out different numbers of skills).




Why not leave the order up to the DM, allowing for more variation?



			
				demiurge1138[/quote said:
			
		

> Add Sense Motive to the helpers and I love it!




Will do!


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

Sure, that sounds good!  So in the Skills lines, we can list the common ones with maxed out ranks and say X more at X ranks each, see below.


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2009)

Updated.

Standard feats across the board, feats based on theme, or a combination of the two?


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

Let's just list them by theme, I guess, in order that they would be taken.

Deceiver: Deceitful, Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (Bluff), Point Blank Shot, Stealthy, Quicken Spell-like Ability?

If you like those, I'll do some more!


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2009)

Sure, that'll work!


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

Ok, then.  Just noticed that we need to swap the Helper and Innocent SLA lists for alphebeticization.  One problem I'm having is that some feats will make more sense at smaller sizes, like Weapon Finesse.  Maybe we should list a few possible common ones and let DMs pick from a list.

Common: Weapon Finesse (Tiny, Small, Medium),  Alertness, Dodge, Skill Focus, Empower SLA, Quicken SLA.

Deceiver: Deceitful, Point Blank Shot, Stealthy
Helper: Track, Hover, ??
Innocent: Nimble Fingers, Magical Aptitude, Mobility
Protector: Animal Affinity, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Track
Trickster:  ??

Running a little low on inspiration.  Any help, guys?


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## Shade (Mar 13, 2009)

Deceiver: Deceitful, Persuasive, Point Blank Shot, Stealthy
Helper: Track, Hover, Self-Sufficient, Jack Of All Trades
Innocent: Nimble Fingers, Magical Aptitude, Mobility
Protector: Animal Affinity, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Track
Trickster: Deft Hands, Persuasive, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint


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## freyar (Mar 13, 2009)

Another Hover for the Innocent to give them all 4 choices?


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2009)

Hmmm...with good maneuverability, I'm not sure Hover is really a useful choice.


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2009)

Ooops, my goof.  Should drop that from Helper, too.  Got any other ideas?


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2009)

Improved Initiative and "save booster" feats are common among other fey.


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2009)

Imp Init for the Helper, Iron Will maybe for the Innocent?


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2009)

Sounds good.  Updated.

Environment: Any

Organization: Solitary, pair, or court (x-x seelie faeries of mixed sizes)?

Challenge Ratings:  Diminutive = 1?  Tiny = 2? Small = 3? Medium = 5? Large = 7?  Huge = 9?


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## Melatuis (Mar 18, 2009)

Thank you for adding the campaign to the source line.

Keep up the good work.


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2009)

My pleasure!

Another thought just occurred to me.  We should probably add swim speeds (and reduce land speed) for those with a mermaid tail, and possibly the same with climb for those with a serpent's tail.   Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 18, 2009)

Sounds very good.


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2009)

All that sounds good.  Court is 6-40?

And, Melatuis, you're welcome.


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2009)

Updated.

We still need to determine AC for each size.

LA is probably +3 for Diminutive and Tiny, +4 for Small and Medium, and +5 for Large and Huge.

Suggested high-end of advancement for Huge?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 19, 2009)

Max advancement 30 HD?

+2 natural armor for Medium, +8 for Large, +12 for Huge?


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2009)

Updated.

I think we're about finished.   Let's give it a good look-over.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

I didn't notice anything missing.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

Whew!  We might just get a plant or two from other campaign settings completed before the month ends.  

*Thorn Ogre*
Six-inch thorns of heavy wood, sharp as daggers, grow out of the walls and ceiling of this chamber. The floor, in contrast, is so smooth it almost appears polished. A ramp on the opposite side of the room leads still upward. 
Suddenly, the wall of the chamber near the ramp bulges outward, the wood creaking and groaning. The bulge takes on a humanoid shape and splits off from the trunk of the tree, becoming a hulking figure made entirely of living wood, covered in sharp thorns and wielding a club formed from the substance of its own body. It moved toward you with surprising swiftness.

Aware that others might find the tomb and overcome the Tree, the Irda took steps to protect the body of their fallen hero. As soon as one of the heroes enters this area, the movement triggers a spell that calls forth the tomb’s guardian, a kind of wood elemental in the shape of an ogre formed from the living wood of the tree and covered in sharp thorns.

*Thorn Ogre:* AC 1; MV 9; HD 8; hp 55; THAC0 13; #AT 1, Dmg 2d6 (thorns); SW suffers double damage from fire attacks; SZ L (9' tall); ML fearless (20); Int low (5); AL N; XP 650. 

The Thorn Ogre is virtually mindless and is not under the control of the Irda Tree. It exists solely to defend the tomb and keep all trespassers away. The heroes must defeat the ogre to pass into the tomb chamber itself. If the heroes defeat the guardian and later return to this room, it does not reappear.

Originally appeared in Sylvan Veil (1999)(Dragonlance).


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2009)

Being all thorny, and vague, there's room to give it extra attacks. We could give it barbed defense, improved grab, and impale.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

Sounds good.

Stick with plant, or is it better suited as a wood elemental, as the original text noted, or even a construct?


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

What kind of critters are the Irda?  That would go a long way to deciding how I feel about the type of this.  

I like demiurge's suggestions.

This almost feels like applying a template to an ogre, like the bramble one from the AB IIRC.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2009)

The irda, or high ogres, are shapechangers and generally good sorts, albeit isolationist.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

Hmm, can't figure this out from wikipedia:  are they more druidic or wizardly?


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## Shade (Mar 23, 2009)

It's been awhile since I read the books, but I believe they are arcane.

A quick check of Dragonlance Nexus gives 'em a favored class of sorcerer.

I'm not really feeling a template vibe here, but I could see arguments for plant, construct, or elemental.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 23, 2009)

Elemental would be nicely weird for a plant creature. Let's go for that.


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## Shade (Mar 23, 2009)

Cool.  FWIW, here are the pertinent bits from the wood element creature template in Manual of the Planes.

Plant Traits: While of the elemental type, a wood element creature is also plantlike. In addition to benefits granted through its elemental type, the wood element creature gains immunity to polymorphing and is not subject to mind-influencing effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). 

Spikes (Ex): A wood element creature can release volleys of bark, splinters, or wood shards, up to four such spikes per round, as a standard action. This attack has a range of 120 feet with no range increment. Damage is 1d6 + Strength bonus. The wood element creature can launch up to its HD total in spikes per day.

Woodsense (Ex): A wood element creature can automatically sense the location of anything within 60 feet that is in contact with vegetation, even if the wood element creature is not in contact with the same vegetation.


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2009)

Elemental would go well with arcane summoning and binding, so I'm good.  Maybe we can do something like we did with the epadrazzil (the 2D ape thing) for biding these.

I could go either way on the wood elemental abilities.  Spikes is particularly thematic, but given that these are "ogres" I'm thinking more melee than ranged focused.  Barbed defense makes a lot of sense, as does impale.


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2009)

Use ogre ability scores (Str 21, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7)?


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2009)

Yeah, let's start with those and modify if needed.


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Yea or nay to woodsense?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 25, 2009)

Let's drop woodsense. I was never keen on that ability.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Let's drop woodsense. I was never keen on that ability.



It is weird, isn't it?


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

I sense wood...  

I adapted the impale directly from the cadaver collector, rather than our more specialized version for the spear grass.   Does it work for the thorn ogre?  Maybe reduce the number of creatures it can pin to its frame?

Suggested damage values?  It looks like the cadaver collector uses its slam damage + 1-1/2 Str for impalement (and grinding of small creatures), and half slam damage (with no Str modifier) for damage caused by its subsequent movement or successful break free, and slam damage (with no Str modifier) for failure to break free.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

I'd say cut the # of impaled creatures by a quarter.  Can you remind me how big the cadaver collector is?  Basing damage on slam damage as suggested sounds right.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

"A cadaver collector, even hunched over, stands about 12 feet tall and weighs about 4,000 pounds."


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

So it's only Large, I guess.  Let's cut the cadaver collector's numbers in half rather than a quarter, then.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

I suppose we'll need to figure out slam damage, then.  

Ogres don't have one.  1d6 is standard for Large creatures.


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2009)

The Large elementals in the SRD all have at least 2d6 slams, but these also have greatclubs.  Let's do either 1d8 slams or drop the greatclub and give them 2d6 slams.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 27, 2009)

I say drop the greatclub.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2009)

Updated.

Thorn damage?

Should we add note that the slam attacks deal half bludgeoning/half piercing due to the thorns?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 28, 2009)

1d6 plus Str for the thorny defense? It's less than the 1d8 of the smaller barbed devil, but the devil is rather a higher CR.


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## freyar (Mar 29, 2009)

All that sounds right, including half-piercing on the slams.

Let's drop the native subtype, I think, unless called and bound critters are native.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2009)

freyar said:


> Let's drop the native subtype, I think, unless called and bound critters are native.




If not native, then it's extraplanar by default.  Suggested home plane?  The Elemental Plane of Wood works, of course, but it is from an optional cosmology.  Maybe Elemental Plane of Earth, or even the Beastlands?


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2009)

Beastlands feels kind of right.  We could have a sidebar listing options, including Elemental Wood or making them native.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 30, 2009)

Beastlands sounds good to me too.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 11
Listen and Spot?

Feats: 3
Power Attack?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 30, 2009)

Power Attack, Lightning Reflexes and Improved Initiative all seem right. That Dex 8 is harsh, especially in conjunction with fire vulnerability.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2009)

I'm fine with boosting Dex.  Suggested amount?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 31, 2009)

Just to 10 or 12 would suit me.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2009)

> Suddenly, the wall of the chamber near the ramp bulges outward, the wood creaking and groaning. The bulge takes on a humanoid shape and splits off from the trunk of the tree, becoming a hulking figure made entirely of living wood, covered in sharp thorns and wielding a club formed from the substance of its own body. *It moves toward you with surprising swiftness*.




Based on the emphasized bit, I think that could provide support for Dex 12, since its movement isn't exactly "swift".


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## freyar (Mar 31, 2009)

That suits me fine, too.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2009)

Updated.

Listen 5, Spot 6?

Organization: Solitary or x

Challenge Rating: 5?  They seem on par with Large earth elementals.

Treasure: None?

Alignment: Always neutral?

Advancement: 9–15 HD (Large); 16–24 HD (Huge)?  (This follows standard elemental progression)


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 31, 2009)

I think we could give them some ranks in Hide, and a racial bonus to hiding in heavy undergrowth, based on the passage above. Agreed to CR 5, alignment and advancement.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2009)

Sounds good.   Hide 5, Listen 3, Spot 3?

Borrow from the cat...

*In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus rises to +8.


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2009)

Yes to all that.

For organization, maybe a patch or a stand?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 1, 2009)

Sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2009)

Patch works for me.  2-6?

Thorn ogres stand 9 to 10 feet tall and weigh x to x pounds. 

Thorn ogres speak Giant and Sylvan?


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2009)

600-800 lb? 2-6 and languages are good.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2009)

Updated.   Finished?


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2009)

Want to put in how they can be summoned?  I'd guess summon monster VI.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2009)

Excellent suggestion, and I agree with your assessment.

Updated.   Finished?


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2009)

Think so.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 2, 2009)

How about summon monster V, summon nature's ally IV, then we're done?


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2009)

I did forget the SNA spells.  But why drop them a spell level?  For summon monster, at least, the other Large CR 5 elementals are SM VI.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 3, 2009)

Er, my apologies on the summon monster. I misread it--but summon nature's ally spells tend to pull in elementals at one level lower. So summon monster VI, summon nature's ally V?


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## freyar (Apr 3, 2009)

Sounds good!


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2009)

Indeed.  Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (Apr 6, 2009)

Think so...


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 6, 2009)

Yep


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## Shade (Jun 24, 2009)

*Space Drake*
Climate/Terrain: Any space
Frequency: Very rare
Organization: Solitary or pack
Active Cycle: Any
Diet: Omnivore
Intelligence: Semi (2-4)
Treasure: I
Alignment: N(E)
No. Appearing: 1 (2-5)
Armor Class: 2
Movement: 12, Fl30 (C)
Hit Dice: 10
THAC0: 11
No. of Attacks: 2 + special
Damage/Attacks: 2-16/1-12 (bite/tail)
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, magic use, constriction
Special Defenses: Nil
Magic Resistance: 30%
Size: G (50')
Morale: Champion (16)
XP Value: 8,000

The space drake resembles the radiant dragon, but without wings. It has the same glittering pearl-like scales, and the same serpentine body, albeit on a smaller scale. The space drake has a dorsal fin which extends along its head and neck. All common dragon attributes outlined in the Monstrous Compendium apply to space drakes as well. Modifications to the general description that apply specifically to fantasy space are listed below.

Combat: Physical attacks comprise a bite and a smash from the drake's sinuous tail. If the tail smash hits, the drake can constrict the target, inflicting 1-10 points on each subsequent round (no 'to hit' roll required). The drake will maintain the constriction until the victim is dead, or until the space drake receives 10 or more points of damage in a single round from another character. When this happens, it decides that the other character is more dangerous, releases the constriction victim, and tries for a tail smash against the new target on the next round. While being constricted, a character's attacks are at -3 and no spellcasting is possible. The space drake is so flexible that it can bite and tail-smash the same target on the same round.

In addition to its physical attacks, the space drake has a breath weapon similar to that of the radiant dragon: glowing pulses of force similar to magic missiles. It can breathe a single pulse that inflicts 6d6 points of damage, or up to six smaller pulses in the same round. (Thus they can breathe two pulses, each inflicting 3d6 points, or six, each inflicting 1d6.) Each pulse can strike a separate target. These pulses are unerring, and will hit unless the victim makes a saving throw vs. breath weapon. If the victim fails its saving throw, it is struck for the appropriate amount of damage. If the victim makes its saving throw, it has dodged that pulse, which then evaporates. The space drake can use its breath weapon on physical objects (such as a ship) as well, inflicting 1 hull point of damage for every 10 hit points of damage its breath weapon causes. Other physical objects must save vs. spell to survive being hit by a pulse.
Space drakes also have some innate magical powers. They can use the following spell-like abilities twice per day, one per round, at the 10th level of ability: restore air, detect portal, light.

Despite their lack of wings, space drakes fly using a natural flight/spelljamming ability. In combat, space drakes prefer to be in flight; on ground, they are limited to bite and breath weapons.

Habitat/Society: Space drakes are totally spaceborne. Like radiant dragons, they are normally solitary and very territorial about their "turf;' which is often the space surrounding a hollowed-out asteroid or deserted dwarven citadel. When they are found in numbers, they are usually a family group, and make their lair in abandoned hulks, etc. In general, their society is an unintelligent echo of their brethren, the radiant dragon.

Ecology: Space drakes are omnivorous in the truest sense of the word: they will eat anything. This includes plant matter, rocks and space dust, although they do seem to prefer meat (and meat that's still kicking, at that).

Although space drakes are capable of living in the phlogiston, they don't seem to enjoy it, and are rarely found there.

Originally appeared in SJA2 - Skull & Crossbows (1990).


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 24, 2009)

Huh. It says that they have "all dragon traits as mentioned in the Monstrous Compendium". Doesn't that suggest that these are true dragons?


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2009)

It does sound that way, though the layout doesn't quite seem the same.  Do we think that means age progression, etc?  I'm happy to go either way; the name "drake" and the general description seem appropriate for a lesser dragon (as does the semi-Int).


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2009)

IIRC, they've used that text for other draconic creatures that ended up as "lesser" dragons in 3e, such as linnorms.

I'm with freyar, and think these work better as "lesser" dragons.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 25, 2009)

Lesser dragons it is, then!


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2009)

50 foot puts it well in the Gargantuan range.

Hit Dice are once again way too low for the size.

Hit Dice and ability scores of other Gargantuan "lesser" dragons...

Desert Landwyrm: 32 HD, Str 35, Dex 10, Con 24, Int 21, Wis 17, Cha 20
Swamp Landwyrm: 36 HD, Str 39, Dex 10, Con 26, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 24
Firedrake: 28 HD, Str 39, Dex 10, Con 28, Int 11, Wis 20, Cha 21
Storm Drake: 30 HD, Str 35, Dex 13, Con 24, Int 15, Wis 19, Cha 20
Womrdrake: 26 HD, Str 38, Dex 16, Con 27, Int 22, Wis 20, Cha 22

These guys have Int Semi (2-4).

Note that the radiant dragon to which it is being compared is NOT the one in the 3E Draconomicon.  That one is a heavenly planar dragon, rather than the space-themed one from Spelljammer.

Here's a conversion of the Spelljammer radiant dragon:  http://www.spelljammer.org/monsters/conversions/DragonRadiant.html


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 25, 2009)

I think lower HD are appropriate here. More towards the wormdrake end of the spectrum.


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2009)

That seems fair to me.  We can just stick to 26HD.

Want to put in a sidebar about the SJ stuff like we've done before?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 26, 2009)

The serpentine body plan suggests a higher-than-10 Dexterity.


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## freyar (Jun 26, 2009)

I'd agree to that.  And with the low Int, probably stick to average Wis and Cha.  How about 26 HD and Str 36, Dex 17, Con 24, Int 3, Wis 11, Cha 10?


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## Leopold (Jun 26, 2009)

This thing sounds like another linnorm or Snakes in Space. It has dorsal fins but there's not much else. No wings, but in space you can have almost perfect maneuverability due to no gravity/friction.  The chances of using this in any game but a space faring one are slim.

Freyar's stats are acceptable.


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## Leopold (Jun 26, 2009)

This thing sounds like another linnorm or Snakes in Space. It has dorsal fins but there's not much else. No wings, but in space you can have almost perfect maneuverability due to no gravity/friction.  The chances of using this in any game but a space faring one are slim.

Freyar's stats are acceptable.


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## Shade (Jun 26, 2009)

_Enough is enough! I have had it with these mothering drakes in this mothering space! _

Added to Homebrews.

We can adapt them to be often found in space, but occasionally find their way to a planet's surface for richer feeding grounds.  

Speaking of space, we'll need to give them an ability that allows them to survive there (no need to breathe, probably immunity to cold and decompression effects).

The breath weapon is really fun.  Essentially, it's magic missle.  Or a meteor swarm that deals force damage!  

I think we should give them a crush attack, since they are big enough and capable of flight.


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## Leopold (Jun 26, 2009)

Didn't spelljammer say "Well it's big enough to have an Oxygen bubble and gravity, so it has it."


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2009)

Well, the Beyond the Moons radiant dragon just uses a line of force, but I like the idea of a force-based meteor swarm.  Perhaps just a single sphere, though?  To avoid turning it into a ranged attack, drop the bludgeoning and always treat it as hitting a square?


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2009)

It could work like Mordenkainen's Force Missiles.


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## freyar (Jun 29, 2009)

Good idea!  Aim at how many victims?


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2009)

I'd stick with up to six "pulses".  12d6 force seems reasonable for a creature of its probably CR.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 30, 2009)

I'm okay with that.


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2009)

Thoughts on dropping the "strikes unneringly" bit and replace with a Reflex save like most breath weapons?


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## freyar (Jul 1, 2009)

If we're leaving the extra blast, the Ref save could just be for that (per the spell).  I think that works.  2d6 per target isn't too much.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 1, 2009)

This critter is enormous and has 30 HD. The PCs can take it.


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2009)

It looks like the Spell Compendium version dropped the saving throw alogether.   Summarizing...

Breath Weapon (Su):  A space drake has one type of breath weapon, a pulse of 6 force missiles usable once every 1d4 rounds.  These pulses can strike up to six creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart.  It can direct more than one pulse at a single target, if desired.  Each pulse unerringly strikes its target, dealing 2d6 points of damage. The missile then explodes in a 5-foot burst of force that deals half this amount of damage to any creatures adjacent to the primary target. 

The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee or has anything less than total cover or concealment. The space drake cannot single out specific parts of a creature, but can target and damage unattended objects.


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## freyar (Jul 1, 2009)

Not such a bad breath weapon since it doesn't allow a save.  I like it!


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 2, 2009)

I also like it!


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2009)

Updated.

Let's get back to how it survives in space.

Shoudl we give it an ability that allows it to survive there (no need to breathe, probably immunity to cold and decompression effects)?

Or should we follow this approach...



Leopold said:


> Didn't spelljammer say "Well it's big enough to have an Oxygen bubble and gravity, so it has it."


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 2, 2009)

I prefer the former. It's more universal than the "has its own oxygen bubble". Besides which, in Spelljammer, everyone could breathe in at least parts of space.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2009)

Does this suffice?

Spaceborn (Ex):  A space drake is immune to the deleterious effects of space.  It need not breathe, and is unaffected by environmental cold effects (but is not immune to cold effects from other sources) and faces no threat of decompression.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 2, 2009)

Sounds good. Although we might want to say it's also immune to fire damage taken from entering the atmospheres of planets. Any particular reason we're not making it immune to cold across the board?


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2009)

No particular reason.  I'm fine with granting full immunity to cold.

Good point on the fire.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 3, 2009)

Should that also be full immunity to fire?


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2009)

Full immunity to fire works for me, though I could see going down to resistance to fire 15 at  a minimum.


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2009)

Updated.

Suggested constrict damage?

Armor Class: x (-4 size, +3 Dex, +x natural), touch x, flat-footed x

Suggested natural armor?  Stormdrake has +24.  Firedrake has +27.  Wormdrake has +30.



> Space drakes also have some innate magical powers. They can use the following spell-like abilities twice per day, one per round, at the 10th level of ability: restore air, detect portal, light.




Only light is a core 3.5 spell.  I could see increasing that to daylight.

Suggestions for the other two?


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## Leopold (Jul 6, 2009)

Natural Amor: +26

Constrict: 4d8 ?

Converted from PUrify food and drink

Restore Air: This spell makes spoiled, rotten, poisonous, or otherwise contaminated air pure and suitable for breathing. This spell has no effect on creatures of any type of Air. Caster can transform 1 Cubic meter of air per caster level.

Detect Portal: Caster can detect wormholes, teleport anchors, or other interdimensional travel gates.

Rough drafts but they seem workable.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 6, 2009)

I don't know if restore air makes poisonous/degraded air clean or if it just creates it.

NA +26 seems good to me for these guys. They're pretty dextrous for a giant space drake.


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2009)

I can't find either of these spells in the Spelljammer Adventures in Space book.  However, there is a "locate portal" spell, which allows the caster to find portals through a crystal shell.  So Leopold's is close enough in spirit.

There is a "create air" spell, which both creates a bubble of breathable fresh air around a creature, as well as replacing befouled air like that within a stinking cloud effect.  So Leopold is once again on the right track, but rather than making it a cubic-foot effect, we can probably make it a number of creatures.


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## Leopold (Jul 6, 2009)

Air: It could do a bit of both  as a SpellJammer enviornment sometimes you run into an old boat that has a degraded air source and it's tough to breathe. This is just a magical "Filter" application.


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## freyar (Jul 6, 2009)

Those suggestions look reasonable to me.  Leopold, want to write them up pretty?


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2009)

Restore Air (Sp):  Once per day, the space drake may create a bubble of clean, fresh air around x creatures.  This bubble follows the creatures for x rounds/minutes/hours (or until the effect is dispeled).  If the creature enters an area of impure air, such as the area of a stinking cloud or a poison gas trap, the creature is rendered immune to these effects.  This is the equivalent of a 3rd(?)-level spell.  Caster level xth.

Locate Portal (Sp):  Once per day, the space drake may locate any nearby wormholes, teleport anchors, or other interdimensional travel locales (such as gates or portals).  This functions as a find the path spell, except it indicates all portals within x miles.  This is the equivalent of a 6th(?)-level spell.  Caster level xth.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 8, 2009)

CL = 20th?


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## freyar (Jul 8, 2009)

Those numbers are fine with me.  Shade, I think there's an extra "s" on "creature" in the Restore Air entry.


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2009)

CL 20 sounds good, and I'll note the extra "s" before adding in Homebrews.

Suggestions for filling in the "x"s?


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## freyar (Jul 8, 2009)

Restore Air: 6 creatures, 3 hours.

Locate Portal: 1 mile?


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2009)

One mile seems an awfully small distance in space.  Maybe 100 miles?


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2009)

True, just trying to think of usual distances for abilities like this.  Sure, 100 miles is ok by me!


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 9, 2009)

Let's go for 100 miles. Potentially overwhelming if used planetside, but usable enough in the wildspace.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 58

Feats: 9 (2 can be epic)

The flavor text leaves alot open to interpretation, but it sounds like they are rather straightforward combatants and not necessarily stealthy.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 9, 2009)

So how about:

Feats: Cleave, Great Cleave, Flyby Attack, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite)
Epic Feats: Devastating Critical (bite), Overwhelming Critical (bite)


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2009)

Looks great!

Max ranks in Listen and Spot?  It basically just needs to find prey, then blast it and shred it.


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2009)

Sounds right about the skills.

CR 18ish?


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2009)

Tough call.  The storm drake is CR 17, with 4 more HD, more attacks, and better SLAs (although it has a less effective breath weapon).

The firedrake (28 HD) and wormdrake (also 26 HD) are both CR 20, but both deal a helluva lot more damage with their breath weapons, have more melee attacks, and in the case of the wormdrake, better SLAs.  The firedrake also has potent venom.


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2009)

Let's do CR 17, then.  Sounds about right.  That's the problem with the CR system --- not that it was a bad idea but that different designers executed it inconsistently, I guess.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2009)

Treasure: Double standard?

Alignment: Usually neutral, often evil?

Advancement: 27-40 HD (Gargantuan); 41-78 HD (Colossal)?  (Same as the similar size and HD wormdrake)

A space drake is 50 feet long and weighs x pounds. 

Space drakes speak Draconic?


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2009)

Make it always neutral, often evil, and I'm happy.

Any other dragons to pull the weight from?  Guessing from some worms (given the serpentine shape), we could go with 15-20 tons.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2009)

Updated.


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2009)

If everybody else likes it, it's good to go.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 10, 2009)

Since we gave it Devestating Critical, we should have the save DC or die included in the attack information with the "+1d6 on a critical"


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2009)

Good point.  Updated.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 10, 2009)

And with that change, I think we're good to go.

DC 35? Whew. Maybe we _should_ boost these guys to CR 18...


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## Shade (Aug 14, 2009)

Echohawk would like to finish off the remaining six Dark Sun critters, so here we go!

*Verini*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Mountains / Warm caves
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Tribal
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivorous
INTELLIGENCE: High to Supra (14–20)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Good
NO. APPEARING: 1–50
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 5–20
THACØ: 12
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 or 1 by weapon
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1–6 (claws), or as per weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spit paralysis poison 30’
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6–7’ tall)
MORALE: Steady to Elite (10–14+)
XP VALUE: 1,000 to 4,000

Appearance: Verini are large upright newts, distant cousins of Firenewts. Their evolution took them on a more stable and less hostile path of development, and thus they have distanced themselves from their cousins and sought peaceful existence in the heat of Athas’ volcanic regions.

Verini stand 6–7 feet tall, and are colored from bright reds and yellows, to dark grays and black, their coloring darkening as they age. Their large eyes are yellow in color, and occupy most of their head. Although the size of their eyes may suggest excellent vision, the verini’s vision is in no way better than that of a human’s. However, their cave-dwelling nature has given them infravision, good up to 40 feet.

Verini speak their own language, consisting of hisses and clicks, as well as common. There is a 30% chance that a given verini preserver or cleric will know 1 or 2 more additional languages.

Combat: Living in the rocky mountains, the verini have developed thick hides that give them a natural armor class of 5. This offers protection from the jagged surfaces that they commonly travel over. Because of their fire-based nature, the verini are resistant to fire-based attacks, with a +2 bonus to save. Conversely, they are susceptible to cold-based attacks, saving at -2. 

Although the verini could make armor if they so desired, most prefer to wear simple jewelry and bracers than cover themselves with heavy armor that conceals their colors, a source of pride among many young verini.

Verini usually hunt in packs, and would rather exist peacefully with other intelligent races, but such is not always the case. If they are pressed to fight, a verini can attack with its long claws for 1–6 each, or use one of the many weapons at its disposal. Common weapons include quarterstaffs, longswords, spears, and short swords. 

Verini never use ranged weapons. The main reason that the verini avoid ranged weapons is that they can spit a special toxin every other round. The poison is a contact paralysis, similar to the thri-kreen poison, but taking effect in a matter of seconds. If a save vs. poison is not made, the victim is paralyzed for 2–8 rounds. If the victim saves, he or she is only paralyzed for one round. It is not uncommon for travellers to come across a band of paralyzed bandits, only to see verini in the distance, leaving the scene. Of course, because the verini have a natural poison going through their bodies, they are also resistant to poisons, getting a +2 to their save vs. poisons and paralysis. Generally, this poison is used to hunt, with one verini luring a creature into range of the others, who then spring on it, hitting it with their poison and tracking it as the poison takes effect and paralyzes the creature. It is then easily killed and taken back to be eaten. However, if under attack, a verini will not hesitate to paralyze its aggressors so that it can flee.

Verini are fast. When running, they sometimes go down on all fours and are able to cover terrain very quickly. They have a knack of knowing where to go to find the easiest ground, so they suffer no penalties for moving over rough terrain. In actuality, they take pride in how quickly they can move. It is somewhat of a contest for the younger verini to see who can cover a given amount of rocky terrain the fastest.

Because of their disposition, verini are free to pursue all disciplines of magic. There is a 20% change that any verini encounter will contain from 1–4 verini preservers or clerics. These are of 4th–19th level, with spells equivalent to a human preserver or cleric of similar level.

Verini openly hate defilers. Since they take such care in protecting not only themselves, but the ecology of the areas they live in, a defiler is seen as a tremendous threat. Verini preservers and psionicists will be dispatched with a wellarmed war party to destroy the offending mage. Rarely is such effort put toward waging war, and many visitors to a verini tribe have marveled at their tactical ability — the verini play to win, and do not throw forces against an enemy they cannot hope to defeat.

Habitat/Society: Verini prefer to live in caverns, preferably near volcanic activity, for it keeps the caves warm during the harsh, cold Athas nights. They live in tribes of 10–50, but larger caves could support tribes of up to 300 members. Verini honor their elders, and many of the tribes are not led by the greatest warriors, but by their eldest member. The verini put more value on wisdom than on the ability to rend a foe. Usually, the verini tribe also holds gatherings where all of the members gather to discuss anything they feel is important. Everyone is given a chance to speak, and everyone is free to talk as long as they feel is necessary, so some of these meetings can last for days. However, most verini would look down on a member that could not get his point across within an hour or so. Interrupting a speaking member is considered a horrendous faux pas, an unspoken rule that few break.

The verini are family-oriented, with the parent verini raising their younglings in a structured environment. Most verini younglings are encouraged to begin along a path at an early age, whether it is a magical discipline or the pursuit of another career. Many verini are artistically oriented, and spend much of their time making jewelry, tapestries, and other beautiful works of art. Twice a year, two verini tribes come together to talk about everything that has happened since they last met. They trade goods, have long discussions, and the younger verini look for prospective mates. They listen to wondrous stories, told by the tribe’s storyteller, and join in large efforts to further their arts.

Ecology: An average verini lives for 150 years. They are warm-blooded amphibians, spending their first year in an egg. After it hatches, the verini grow in size rapidly, reaching full size in under 5 years. They walk upright about a year after hatching. They are carnivores, but prefer substances that do not deplete the local ecology to the point that they threaten another species.

Originally appeared in Dark Sun: Wake of the Ravager Rule Book (1994).


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## freyar (Aug 14, 2009)

Do we have a type for Firenewts?  Absent that, Monstrous Humanoid (reptilian)?


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## Shade (Aug 14, 2009)

Here's the MoF/Serpent Kingdoms firenewt...

*Firenewt*
Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Fire, Reptilian)
Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20 ft. (chainmail)(4 squares); base 30 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (+1 Dex, +5 chainmail), touch 11, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+2
Attack: Longsword +2 melee (1d8/19-20)
Full Attack: Longsword +2 melee (1d8/19-20)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Breath weapon
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire, vulnerability to cold
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +3
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 8
Skills: Intimidate +2, Ride +3
Feats: Mounted Combat
Environment: Warm mountains
Organization: Solitary, gang (5-10), warband (16-35), or or tribe (81-100, including 2-4 clerics of 1st-4th level, 4 elite warriors of 2nd or 3rd level, and an overlord of 4th-6th level)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually neutral evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +3

Firenewts are distant relatives of the lizardfolk, cruel marauders that roam hot and volcanic regions.

A firenewt's skin is a mottled sepia color, darkest along the spine and fading to a near-white on the belly. The smooth flesh and features resemble those of an eel. The eyes are deep crimson. They stand around 5 1/2 to 6 feet tall and weigh 170 to 180 pounds.

Firenewts speak Draconic.

Combat
Firenewt warriors are typically armored in chainmail and carry longswords, battleaxes, or longspears. Fully 33% of firenewts encountered on the surface ride giant striders trained for melee. At least 90% of elite warriors and all clerics ride these mounts as well.

Breath Weapon (Su): Once every 5 minutes, a firenewt can breathe fire on an opponent within 5 feet. This attack deals 1d6 points of fire damage; a successful Reflex save (DC 12) reduces the damage by half. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## freyar (Aug 14, 2009)

Forgot those were in MoF.  I could see Verini as having the fire subtype based on flavor, though mechanically they only seem to have resistance rather than immunity.  Your call.


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## Shade (Aug 14, 2009)

I don't have the 2e version available, but the 1e Fiend Folio version had a similar resistance, rather than immunity.   So since it was upgraded to immunity in 3e, I could see support for going that route here as well.


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## freyar (Aug 15, 2009)

You mean the same thing for the Firenewts?  In that case, let's definitely go for the fire subtype.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 15, 2009)

Agreed to fire subtype. I'm intrigued by these guys, seeing as I ran a highly firenewt-centric game some years back.


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## Echohawk (Aug 16, 2009)

Shade said:


> I don't have the 2e version available, but the 1e Fiend Folio version had a similar resistance, rather than immunity.   So since it was upgraded to immunity in 3e, I could see support for going that route here as well.




The 2nd Edition version is also resistant ("highly resistant to fire-based attacks and save with +3 bonuses [...] In addition, all fire-based attacks [...] are reduced by 1 hit point of damage per die of the attack") rather than immune, but I agree that the verini should probably follow the example set for firenewts in 3e and be immune to fire.


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## freyar (Aug 16, 2009)

Sounds like we're all agreed, then.

Start the verini with 5HD and have a lot of advancement possible?

Since verini are slightly larger, have more HD, and are considerably more intelligent, I propose bumping the firenewt stats across the board:  Str 12, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 16?  (Assuming 5HD.)


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.



> SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spit paralysis poison 30’
> Verini never use ranged weapons. The main reason that the verini avoid ranged weapons is that they can spit a special toxin every other round. The poison is a contact paralysis, similar to the thri-kreen poison, but taking effect in a matter of seconds. If a save vs. poison is not made, the victim is paralyzed for 2–8 rounds. If the victim saves, he or she is only paralyzed for one round. It is not uncommon for travellers to come across a band of paralyzed bandits, only to see verini in the distance, leaving the scene. Of course, because the verini have a natural poison going through their bodies, they are also resistant to poisons, getting a +2 to their save vs. poisons and paralysis. Generally, this poison is used to hunt, with one verini luring a creature into range of the others, who then spring on it, hitting it with their poison and tracking it as the poison takes effect and paralyzes the creature. It is then easily killed and taken back to be eaten. However, if under attack, a verini will not hesitate to paralyze its aggressors so that it can flee.




Thri-kreen venom...

Poison (Ex): Bite, initial damage 1d6 Dex, secondary damage paralysis for 2d6 minutes, DC 11 + Con modifier. A thri-kreen produces sufficient poison for only one poisonous bite per day. 



> Verini are fast. When running, they sometimes go down on all fours and are able to cover terrain very quickly. They have a knack of knowing where to go to find the easiest ground, so they suffer no penalties for moving over rough terrain.




Didn't we do a similiar "no terrain penalties to movement" ability recently?


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## freyar (Aug 17, 2009)

Hmm, the thri-keen poison sounds better than the original verini poison.  I'd be interested to know how the 2e thri-keen poison looks in comparison.

We did a similar no terrain penalties thing.  Was it the windthrowers or something similar?  Can't remember.


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2009)

2e thri-kreen...

Venom: This venom is delivered through an older thri-kreen's bite. Anyone bitten must make a successful saving throw vs. paralyzation or be paralyzed. Smaller than man-sized creatures are paralyzed for 2d10 rounds, man-sized for 2d8 rounds, large creatures for 1d8 rounds, and huge and gargantuan creatures for only one round.


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## freyar (Aug 17, 2009)

So the thri-keen got a boost in the poison department.  Let's take thri-keen poison and just bump up to 1d8 Dex, 2d8 minutes.  Sound good?


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2009)

That works for me.  And of course, it's contact rather than injury due to the "spit delivery system".


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## freyar (Aug 17, 2009)

Right.  Ranged touch or regular range to allow armor and shields to get in the way of the spit?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 18, 2009)

Ranged touch. It seeps in through the gaps in the armor.


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## Shade (Aug 18, 2009)

Borrowing the structure from the guardian naga...

Poison (Ex): Contact, Fortitude DC x, initial damage 1d8 Dex, secondary damage paralysis for 2d8 minutes. The save DC is Constitution-based.  

Spit (Ex): A verini can spit its venom up to 30 feet as a standard action. This is a ranged touch attack with no range increment. Opponents hit by this attack must make successful saves (see above) to avoid the effect.  A verini must wait 1d2 rounds after spitting for its poison glands to refill.


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## freyar (Aug 18, 2009)

This is curious.  I happened to be looking through my MM2 this morning and saw the thri-kreen.  The poison listed there does 2d6 minutes paralysis for both primary and secondary.  Where'd you see that poison, Shade?  

Anyway, I'm still pretty happy with the poison as we have it, though I can negotiate on making the primary damage more paralysis.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 18, 2009)

It might be from the Psionic's Handbook version.

I like the Dex damage/paralysis combo, myself.


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## Shade (Aug 18, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> It might be from the Psionic's Handbook version.




Indeed.  And the Shining South Version.


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## freyar (Aug 18, 2009)

Interesting.  I wonder why they changed it.  Let's stick to Dex/paralysis, then.


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2009)

Updated.


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2009)

Looking good.



> Verini are fast. When running, they sometimes go down on all fours and are able to cover terrain very quickly. They have a knack of knowing where to go to find the easiest ground, so they suffer no penalties for moving over rough terrain. In actuality, they take pride in how quickly they can move. It is somewhat of a contest for the younger verini to see who can cover a given amount of rocky terrain the fastest.




This suggests 2 abilities.  First, some sort of sprinting or faster movement when down on all fours.  Then there's the aforementioned "no terrain penalties" ability.  I know we have examples of both, but I don't know where.

Also, the flavor text says they are amphibian.  Do we keep the reptilian subtype following the firenewts (which should be amphibian also) or remove it?  Anyone know off-hand if boggards or bullywugs or sivs are reptilian?


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2009)

Bullywugs and sivs = not reptilian.

Dunno about boggards.

I'm hunting for those abilities...


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2009)

I'm going to say leave reptilian in.  They're related to firenewts, which are, even if that's questionable.  Though I suppose the firenewts are supposed to be related to lizardfolk.


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2009)

Here's one of the abilities we were seeking...

All-Terrain Travel (Ex): A roller sheen ignores all movement penalties based upon terrain (such as ice, undergrowth, etc.).

For the other, we used the "all fours" bit in the drop bear.   Essentially, we just gave them the sprint ability, and noted in the tactics that they could drop to all fours to sprint.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 20, 2009)

Firenewts do have the reptilian subtype, being relatives of lizardfolk. Somewhere in the edition switch, they stopped being amphibians and started being reptiles. Oh, and boggards aren't reptilian either. They're Humanoid (boggard).


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2009)

Shade said:


> Here's one of the abilities we were seeking...
> 
> All-Terrain Travel (Ex): A roller sheen ignores all movement penalties based upon terrain (such as ice, undergrowth, etc.).
> 
> For the other, we used the "all fours" bit in the drop bear.   Essentially, we just gave them the sprint ability, and noted in the tactics that they could drop to all fours to sprint.



I think just using those with appropriate name changes is perfect.

And I guess we're agreed on leaving reptilian in?

Uhh, are we missing any more SAs or SQs?


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2009)

Yeah, let's stick with reptilian since they are closely related to the firenewt.



> Verini are fast. When running, they sometimes go down on all fours and are able to cover terrain very quickly. They have a knack of knowing where to go to find the easiest ground, so they suffer no penalties for moving over rough terrain. In actuality, they take pride in how quickly they can move. It is somewhat of a contest for the younger verini to see who can cover a given amount of rocky terrain the fastest.




Rename all-terrain travel to "Clever Runner"?   Should we limit this to ignoring movement penalties from scree and rubble?  Nothing seems to indicate they wouldn't be affected by heavy undergrowth in a forest or for traveling through hedgerows.


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2009)

Clever Runner sounds good.  And I agree to limiting to scree and rubble.  Sounds right.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 21, 2009)

Agreed to limiting it to scree and rubble.


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2009)

Updated.

Suggested sprint multiplier?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 26, 2009)

4 times. These guys aren't cheetah fast, that's for sure.


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## freyar (Aug 26, 2009)

Agreed to 4x for sprint.

Is the rest, including the preserver/defiler business all flavor, then?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 26, 2009)

If they're preservers, perhaps favored class druid?


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## freyar (Aug 26, 2009)

Sure!


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## Shade (Aug 26, 2009)

Sounds good.  Updated.

Skills: 40
Firenewt has Intimidate and Ride

Feats: 2
Firenewt has Mounted Combat


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 26, 2009)

Weapon Focus (longsword) and Improved Initiative?


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## Shade (Aug 26, 2009)

That'll work.  I could even see Run as a bonus feat.



> Verini usually hunt in packs, and would rather exist peacefully with other intelligent races, but such is not always the case.






> Usually, the verini tribe also holds gatherings where all of the members gather to discuss anything they feel is important. Everyone is given a chance to speak, and everyone is free to talk as long as they feel is necessary, so some of these meetings can last for days. However, most verini would look down on a member that could not get his point across within an hour or so. Interrupting a speaking member is considered a horrendous faux pas, an unspoken rule that few break.






> The verini are family-oriented, with the parent verini raising their younglings in a structured environment. Most verini younglings are encouraged to begin along a path at an early age, whether it is a magical discipline or the pursuit of another career. Many verini are artistically oriented, and spend much of their time making jewelry, tapestries, and other beautiful works of art. Twice a year, two verini tribes come together to talk about everything that has happened since they last met. They trade goods, have long discussions, and the younger verini look for prospective mates. They listen to wondrous stories, told by the tribe’s storyteller, and join in large efforts to further their arts.




Craft (any one), Diplomacy, Knowledge (nature), Perform (oratory), Survival?  Maybe mix in a few ranks of Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot for hunting purposes?


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## freyar (Aug 26, 2009)

I was going to suggest Run, so making it bonus is fine with me.

I like those skill suggestions.  Let's max Survival and take 2 ranks each off of Craft, Diplomacy, Knowledge, and Perform to split evenly among the last 4?


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## Shade (Aug 27, 2009)

Updated.



> ORGANIZATION: Tribal
> NO. APPEARING: 1–50






> Verini usually hunt in packs






> There is a 20% change that any verini encounter will contain from 1–4 verini preservers or clerics. These are of 4th–19th level, with spells equivalent to a human preserver or cleric of similar level.






> They live in tribes of 10–50, but larger caves could support tribes of up to 300 members.




Organization: Solitary, hunting pack (x-x plus 1-2 druids or clerics of xth-xth level), or tribe (10-300 plus 1-4 druids of clerics of 4th–19th level)?

Challenge Rating: 3?

Level Adjustment: +4? (1 higher than firenewt due to unbalanced ability scores)


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## freyar (Aug 27, 2009)

hunting pack (3-12 plus ... of 1st to 4th level)?

They're a tough CR 3, but I think that's ok (comparing to derro).

LA: sure.


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## freyar (Aug 27, 2009)

hunting pack (3-12 plus ... of 1st to 4th level)?

They're a tough CR 3, but I think that's ok (comparing to derro).

LA: sure.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 27, 2009)

CR 3 and LA +4 sound right to me.


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## Shade (Aug 31, 2009)

Updated.

They stand around 6 to 7 feet tall and weigh x to x pounds.  (Firenewts stand around 5 1/2 to 6 feet tall and weigh 170 to 180 pounds.)


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## freyar (Aug 31, 2009)

200-300lb?


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## Shade (Aug 31, 2009)

Sounds good.

Did we ever decide what to do with this?



> Of course, because the verini have a natural poison going through their bodies, they are also resistant to poisons, getting a +2 to their save vs. poisons and paralysis.




Stick with +2 racial bonus vs. poison or paralysis?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 1, 2009)

I say stick with the +2 saves bonus.


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2009)

Updated.

Anything left?


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## freyar (Sep 1, 2009)

Should we also put that in the saves line?

Otherwise, looks good.


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2009)

Will do.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 1, 2009)

With that change, I think we're good to go.


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2009)

More undead horror!

*Saugh, Dearg-Due*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: The Shadow Rift
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: The Saugh (Loht's Army)
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Human blood
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 2d6
ARMOR CLASS:: 8
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 5
THACO: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d8 (headman's axe)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Choking cloud
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell immunity
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6' tall)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 650

The saugh are an army of the dead created by Loht, Prince of the Sith, to serve him when he moves against the lands of mankind. The ghoulish dearg-due serve as the front ranks of this menacing army. Their true master is Gwydion, but Loht does not know that, and for now they obey his commands. Dearg-due look much like living men, but they have grown gaunt with their time in the grave. While they are clearly undead creatures with flesh drawn tight across their features, they have not decayed in the slightest. The faces of dearg-due are unsettling, for their eyes have been plucked from their sockets, leaving only empty holes through which they somehow see.

Dearg-due are able to speak as they did in life, although their words are slurred and slow in forming. Few have ever conversed with these dark creatures, however, for they have little to do with mortals outside of combat.

Combat: Though dearg-due move about at the command of Loht, they are not mindless creatures. In fact, these cunning creatures often strike from hiding or under the guise of parlay.

In battle, the dearg-due wield great axes with broad blades that resemble those employed by an executioner at a beheading. They employ these weapons with great skill, inflicting 1d8 points of damage with each blow.

Though they can be hit by any sort of weapon, cold iron inflicts double damage on these vile creatures. Any blow that strikes a dearg-due is as dangerous to the attacker as it is to its target. When the skin of these fetid creatures is broken, a foul mist boils out from the wound in a five foot radius around the dearg-due. This acidic cloud burns the skin, eyes, and lungs of those within range. If the attacker fails a saving throw vs. breath weapon, he or she suffers a number of points of damage equal to half those inflicted on the dearg-due by his or her weapon (or normal damage if using cold iron); he or she suffers no damage on a successful save.

Being undead, dearg-due are immune to the effects of charm, sleep, hold, and other life- and mind-affecting spells. Similarly, diseases and toxins have no power over them.

Habitat/Society: These horrifying creatures dwell in and around the mountain which holds the Obsidian Gate, guarding this structure for their dark master. As stated above, Loht believes that this army, created by his sith and sithkin, is his to command, but this state of affairs lasts only until Gwydion returns.

Ecology: Though they need not eat to survive, these creatures delight in feeding on the flesh of corpses. After battle, the dearg-due ravenously consume all casualties.

Originally appeared in Shadow Rift (1998).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 10, 2009)

Do we want to keep the retributive cloud doing damage equal to half taken, or a flat number?


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## freyar (Oct 11, 2009)

I think that's usually a flat number or flat die.  Probably something like 1d6 in this case.

Vulnerable to cold iron?  Or switch to some kind of DR?


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2009)

Well, there's this precedent from one of my favorite critters.  

Aura of Retribution (Su): This effect is always active in a 30-foot-spread centered on the jovoc. Whenever the creature takes damage from any source, every non-tanar'ri within the area immediately takes an equal amount of damage. A successful Fortitude saving throw (DC 15) halves the damage. (For example, if an opponent deals 12 points of damage to a jovoc, the opponent and every other nontanar'ri within 30 feet also immediately takes 12 points of damage each, or 6 points with a successful Fortitude save). Regardless of the source of the damage to the jovoc, the damage dealt to nontanar'ri by this effect is not subject to negation or reduction because of resistance, immunity, damage reduction, spell resistance, or the like. The save DC is Constitution-based.

On the other hand, the divine retribution does this...

The retribution deals 1d6 points of damage per caster level you possess (maximum 15d6) and 1d4 points of ability damage.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 13, 2009)

I could go for the retribution doing half damage dealt to the creature, with a save to reduce that further to 1/4 damage.


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2009)

That works for me.   These things sound a bit like ghouls and ghasts.  Since they are closer in HD to the ghast, shall we modify its ability scores slightly?

Str 17, Dex 17, Con —, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 16

These are only average Int, and sound a bit stronger.  Both ghouls and ghasts have Wis 14, so maybe...

Str 19, Dex 17, Con —, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 14?

Perhaps drop Dex to 15 or even 13, since these things have poor AC and don't seem to rely on agility?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 13, 2009)

I'd be content to drop Dex to 15.


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## freyar (Oct 13, 2009)

Same here, and I'm ok with retribution being 1/2 damage, save for 1/4.


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.



freyar said:


> Vulnerable to cold iron?  Or switch to some kind of DR?




I'd prefer DR x/cold iron, but might be persuaded otherwise.

Does the retributive cloud capture what we discussed adequately?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 14, 2009)

Agreed to DR for the cold iron thing. As for the retributive cloud, I think Fort is more appropriate than Reflex.


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2009)

Yeah, that makes good sense.

Updated.

Unholy Toughness seems appropriate for these things to me.  Anyone else?

Give 'em +2 turn resistance like ghouls and ghasts?



> In fact, these cunning creatures often strike from hiding or under the guise of parlay.




Skills: 32
Diplomacy 8, Hide 8, Move Silently 8, Spot 8?  (Ghouls and ghasts lack Listen for some reason)

Feats: 2
Great Fortitude, Weapon Focus (greataxe)?


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## freyar (Oct 14, 2009)

Looking good.

Yes to unholy toughness and yes to turn resistance +2.

Skills look good, and so do feats.


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2009)

Updated.

Since Loht is essentially the leader of the unseelie court in Ravenloft (at least for a time), should his minions speak Sylvan?

Organization: Solitary or battalion (2–12)?

Challenge Rating: 2-3?  They are definitely better than ghouls, but although tougher than ghasts, lack the special attacks.  I'm not convinced they are as good as wights at CR 3 either.

Alignment: Always neutral evil?

Advancement: 6-10 HD (Medium); 11-15 HD (Large)?  Or limit advancement to Medium like ghouls, ghasts, and wights?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2009)

CR 3. The retributive cloud is all sorts of nasty, and they've got the sheer staying power that a ghast or wight lacks.

If they attack under the guise of parlay, wouldn't Bluff be far more appropriate than Diplomacy?


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2009)

Good call.  Updated.

I think limiting advancement to Medium makes the most sense, due to the lack of fey giants.

All done?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2009)

I agree that we should limit advancement to Medium. Not too many Large fey.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2009)

Here's the other member of the saugh...

*Saugh, Gossamer*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: The Shadow Rift
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: The Saugh (Loht's Army)
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Life energy
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 2d6
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: fly 12 (A)
HIT DICE: 3
THACO: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d8 (touch)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Surprise, energy drain
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +1 or better magical weapon to hit, spell immunities, wraithform
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6' tall)
MORALE: Fearless (19)
XP VALUE: 2,000

Gossamers are spectral creatures that feed upon the life energy of their victims. They are counted among Loht's host of the dead, or saugh. Although they are not uncommon in the dark corners of the Shadow Rift, they are seldom encountered in the mortal world above.
A gossamer appears as an elongated, distorted image of its form in life. Transparent and shimmering, the spirit drifts about as if carried on the wind while wisps of vapor and curls of light encircle it.

Gossamers can speak just as they did in life, so most of them are fluent in the common language of their homeland. All of their words, however, are hollow and haunting. They seldom speak with mortals unless compelled to do so by magical means.

Combat: Gossamers take full advantage of their ghostly nature when engaging in combat. They swoop about, dart through solid walls, and plunge into the ground, if it serves to confuse their enemies.

Gossamers often lurk beneath the ground, waiting for their victims to pass overhead. When they hear talking or otherwise sense the presence of living creatures, they soar from the earth and attack. When attacking in this fashion, a -2 penalty is imposed on the enemy's surprise roll.

The primary attack of a gossamer is its energy-draining touch. A successful attack roll by the gossamer indicates that it swoops through the body of its enemy. In so doing, it inflicts 1d8 points of damage and drains away 1 point of the target's Constitution. Victims regain lost Constitution points at a rate of one point per day.

Each Constitution point absorbed by a gossamer allows it to regenerate a number of hit points. The number of points regained is determined by rolling a die of the same type that the victim uses to determine his or her hit point total. Thus, draining a point from a warrior allows the gossamer to regain 1d10 points while a drained wizard restores only 1d4 points.

Gossamers are ethereal creatures with no physical forms. Normal weapons, no matter how well crafted, are useless against them. They can be hit by only +1 or better magical weapons. In addition, as undead creatures, gossamers are immune to all manner of mind and life-affecting magic. They cannot be affected by charm, sleep, hold, or similar spells. Poisons, diseases, and similar mortal hazards do not endanger the gossamer either.

Habitat/Society: The gossamer is counted among the saugh, Loht's army of undead creatures. They assemble when and where he orders and carry out whatever instructions he gives them. When they are not so needed by the lord of the Arak, the gossamer are consigned to the Black Marsh in the Shadow Rift. However, unknown to Loht they are actually controlled by Gwydion exerting his influence from inside the Obsidian Gate and their first loyalty is to the shadow-fiend; they obey Loht's orders only so long as it pleases their true master for them to do so. Should Gwydion escape, the gossamer and all the saugh revert directly to his control.

Ecology: Like most undead, these spirits have little effect upon world of the living. The corpses that they have left behind, however, can be used as a means to destroy them. If the body from which a gossamer's spirit is drawn is cast into a fire of yew wood, the ghost is destroyed in 3d4 rounds. During this time, the gossamer feels great pain and tries to do all the harm it can before finally being annihilated.

Originally appeared in Shadow Rift (1998).


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2009)

Incorporeal, for sure.  It says ethereal, but I don't actually get that vibe from the rest of the write-up.

Con damage plus hp damage on the incorporeal touch.  Not bad.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 16, 2009)

I think we should standardize the HP gained by the gossamer to 5 per level for every class type.


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2009)

Agreed to all that.  They are essentially variant wraiths.

Since they have less HD and aren't as smart, but have better AC, tone down the wraith's mental ability scores, but boost Dex?

2e wraiths were AC 4 and Int 12.  So a 3e wraith actually got smarter, but has a worse AC.

Something like Str —, Dex 20, Con —, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 15?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 16, 2009)

Those ability scores appeal.


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Nothing seems to indicate the ability to create spawn.



> Gossamers often lurk beneath the ground, waiting for their victims to pass overhead. When they hear talking or otherwise sense the presence of living creatures, they soar from the earth and attack. When attacking in this fashion, a -2 penalty is imposed on the enemy's surprise roll.




Give 'em Alertness and Improved Initiative as bonus feats, like a wraith?



> The corpses that they have left behind, however, can be used as a means to destroy them. If the body from which a gossamer's spirit is drawn is cast into a fire of yew wood, the ghost is destroyed in 3d4 rounds. During this time, the gossamer feels great pain and tries to do all the harm it can before finally being annihilated.




What to do with that?


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2009)

I like what we've got so far.  

Some kind of body-dependence.  Not quite like the dryad, except like how dryads die when their tree is chopped down, mythologically speaking.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 17, 2009)

Body dependence or rejuvenation with an identical trigger to break it for all gossamers.


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2009)

I didn't get a rejuvenation vibe from them, but you could convince me.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 17, 2009)

The rejuvenation argument is basically that they don't actually have to be anywhere near their corpse. They can marshall to the call of their commander and lurk about at will. The "destroy the corpse, kill the monster" is thus going to be useless most of the time unless rejuvenation comes into play. I'm honestly tempted to just forget the whole corpse-connection thing.


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2009)

Good point.  Let's drop that, or maybe leave it as a rumor for DMs that want to go that route.

Skills: 30
Hide, Listen, and Spot seem to fit their tactics.  Maxxing those out would leave two more maxxed skills.

Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, 2 more
Flyby Attack seems a good option.  What else?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 19, 2009)

Flyby Attack, Weapon Focus or Ability Focus?


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## freyar (Oct 19, 2009)

Rumor is good.

Ability Focus (Con drain)

Intimidate, maybe Diplomacy?


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2009)

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or x (2–12)

Challenge Rating: 3?  (A wraith's CR equals its HD...5)

Advancement: 4–9 HD (Medium)?


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2009)

This is tough.  The Con drain isn't as bad, but they're actually harder to hit, have a better attack bonus, and lack daylight powerlessness.  They're not as good as a wraith but might be better relative to HD.  CR 4?

Organization: gang, like a wraith?

Advancement is fine by me.


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2009)

That sounds reasonable.

Updated.

Finished?


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2009)

I'm ready to move on.


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2009)

*Umbra*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Ravenloft/Keening
FREQUENCY: Common (Not encountered outside Keening)
ORGANIZATION: Clan
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night (Any)
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Low (3-5)
TREASURE: Q
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Evil
No. APPEARING: 2d4
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 4+4
THACO: 17
No. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d6/ld6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Strike shadows, hypnotic stare
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Invisibility, spell immunities
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 20%
SIZE: M (6' tall)
MORALE: Fearless (19-20)
XP VALUE: 975

The umbra are undead shadow elves that dwell in the domain of Keening. Their devotion to Tristessa was so great in life that they continue to serve her long after death.

Umbra are slender, with dark violet skin, silver hair, and bright indigo eyes that burn with a black flame. Their bodies are gaunt, and leathery skin stretches tightly over their clearly visible bones.

Combat: In melee, umbra strike twice with their filthy black claws for 1d6 points of damage each. In lieu of that, they may attack an opponent's shadow. This imposes a -2 penalty on the attack roll, but inflicts double damage on the victim.

All umbra can become invisible at will (per the spell). They use this ability to get close to their victims, imposing a -4 penalty to all surprise checks when they materialize. Encountering the umbra in this way for the first time requires a fear check.

Anyone looking into the eyes of an umbra must make a successful saving throw vs. paralysis or stand frozen in terror for 1d4 rounds. The umbra typically combine this power with their invisibility to appear face-to-face with opponents, then repeatedly strike their shadows with a +4 attack bonus while they are immobile. Umbra are immune to life- or mind-affecting spells, charm, hold, death magic, and cold- or ice-based attacks. Poisons and diseases also pose no threat to them.

Umbra can see in pure darkness as well as other races see in daylight, though they prefer lit areas where their opponents will cast shadows. Umbra cannot stand the touch of sunlight, which inflicts 4 points of damage to them for every round of exposure. The sudden appearance of bright light, even if it is not sunlight, blinds them for 1d2 rounds. While blinded, they back away from the source.  Holy water splashed upon them inflicts 2d4 points of damage.

Habitat/Society: The umbra move through the tunnels of Mount Lament with indifference, awaiting the commands of Tristessa. They patrol Keening in search of the banshee's baby.

Ecology: When Tristessa became the darklord of Keening, she had over five hundred umbra to command. Their numbers have dwindled over the years, however, so that fewer than one hundred umbra dwell in the domain currently.

Originally appeared in Servants of Darkness (1998).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 22, 2009)

Considering that they strike the opponent's shadows, perhaps them attacking touch AC is more appropriate than the penalty to hit, double damage mechanic. Note that it doesn't work in total darkness.


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## freyar (Oct 22, 2009)

Agreed.  Looks like a fear gaze attack, but the effect given isn't like any of the fear conditions in 3.X.  It seems more like dazed or (better) stunned when combined with the melee attacks, though maybe that makes things too mean.  I dunno.


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2009)

There is a precedent for "paralyzed with fear"...

Evil Gaze (Su): Fear, 30 feet. A creature that meets the nightwalker’s gaze must succeed on a DC 24 Will save or be paralyzed with fear for 1d8 rounds. Whether or not the save is successful, that creature cannot be affected again by the same nightshade’s gaze for 24 hours. This is a mind-affecting fear effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Of course, that might be a bit much for a 4 HD creature.


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2009)

Let's basically take that gaze, swap paralyzed for stunned, and cut to 1d4 rounds or shorter if necessary for balance.  That's not too terrible, is it?


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2009)

Seems reasonable.



> INTELLIGENCE: Low (3-5)
> ARMOR CLASS: 5
> HIT DICE: 4+4




Since they are based on elves, I'm thinking decent to high Dex.  The "4+4" HD leads me to suggest unholy toughness.  Their special abilities suggest high Cha.  Their damage doesn't suggest they are especially strong.

So maybe...

Str 10, Dex 17, Con -, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 17?



> MAGIC RESISTANCE: 20%




That equates to CR+5.



> All umbra can become invisible at will (per the spell). They use this ability to get close to their victims, imposing a -4 penalty to all surprise checks when they materialize. Encountering the umbra in this way for the first time requires a fear check.




Invisibility as at-will SLA.  Something similar to frightful presence that only works when striking from ambush?



> Umbra can see in pure darkness as well as other races see in daylight, though they prefer lit areas where their opponents will cast shadows.




Darkvision out to 120 feet like drow and/or see in darkness like devils?



> Umbra cannot stand the touch of sunlight, which inflicts 4 points of damage to them for every round of exposure. The sudden appearance of bright light, even if it is not sunlight, blinds them for 1d2 rounds. While blinded, they back away from the source.




Light blindness (like drow) plus something like this?

Damaged by Sunlight (Ex):  Exposure to natural sunight deals 1d4 points of damage to an umbra each round.


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## freyar (Oct 25, 2009)

In addition to the good Dex, Unholy Grace for AC seems appropriate.  In that case, if we want to hit the original AC, we should drop either Dex or Cha to 15.  

Agreed to frightful presence if attacking in a surprise round.

Let's do darkvision 120 ft.

Both light vulnerabilities sound good.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 25, 2009)

I actually like the flat number for the damage. 5 a round?


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## freyar (Oct 26, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I actually like the flat number for the damage. 5 a round?



That's ok by me, unless that destroys them too fast.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Shall we work on the "shadowstrike" ability?

Something like this?

Shadowstrike (Su?):  In any illumination other than total darkness, an umbra may choose to strike at an opponent's shadow.  To do so, it makes a melee touch attack.  If the attack succeeds, it deals damage as if it had hit the creature with a claw attack.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 28, 2009)

That sounds reasonable. As a standard action, in order to allow it only a single shadowclaw or two claws.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2009)

Updated.

Caster level for invisibility?

Here's information on shadow elves, upon which they are based.

Skills: 7
Hide and Move Silently seem no-brainers.  I'd recommend a decent racial bonus on both as well.  Maybe a greater Hide bonus in areas of shadowy illumination?

Give 'em +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks like elves?

Feats: 2
Stealthy?  Weapon Finesse?


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## freyar (Oct 28, 2009)

Those skill and feat ideas sound good.

Have those shadow elves been converted?  (And are they different enough from every other elf subrace to be worth converting if not?)


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2009)

Vaults of Pandius has converted them here, and has information on them all over their site.

We haven't done a conversion for the CC, though.


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2009)

Eh, we can leave them until we've finished the rest, then. 

CR 3?  up to 150 lb? any forest?  Common and Elven?


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2009)

Updated.

Environment: Temperate forests and underground?

Advancement: 5-12 HD (Medium)?

Anything else?


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2009)

That sounds good, and then I think they're done.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2009)

Updated.  I set the caster level for invisibility equal to its HD.

Here's the next one for you guys to play with tonight...

*Resident*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: None
INELLIGENCE: Average
TREASURE: None
ALIGNMENT: Lawful Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: Fly 18(A)
HIT DICE: 6
THAC0: 12
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d6/1d6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Keen of despair, freezing grasp
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Can be hit only with magical weapons, invisibility at will, immune to certain attack forms
SPECIAL WEAKNESSES: Holy water, certain spells (see text)
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 25%
SIZE: M
MORALE: Fanatic (18)
XP VALUE: 3,000

A resident is a tormented soul, doomed to exist among the living until it can find self-forgiveness. In life, a resident was a person who was offered true love, but lacked the courage or conviction to accept the blessing and thus lost it, becoming embittered.

A typical "resident" tale tells of a lad named Jonas, who met a woman on a chance encounter. He befriended her and became very fond of her as time passed. Then she met a suitor who seemed to make her very happy. Jonas, unwilling to face up to the obligations of marriage but also unwilling to end their relationship, watched as his true love married her suitor and raised a family. Jonas tried to bury his anger, jealousy, and self-hatred, but he was unable to forgive himself and move on with his life. His corrupt spirit carried on rage after his death. His "resident spirit" now inhabits the overgrown ruins of his love's cottage, where he used to visit her. Few living folk come here as the cottage is widely known to be haunted.

A resident is usually invisible, even when it attacks, but it can choose to appear as a soundless, vaporous apparition of manlike shape. In general, it haunts a fixed location, usually a place where its love once lived or where the two met in life. However, should it discover someone who strongly resembles its lost love, the resident often abandons its vigil and proceeds to follow this surrogate love, who will never be harmed. It seeks not to impose its own will on the world, but instead seeks a focus for its existence. In direct melee, a resident only attacks if its surrogate is in trouble. It still follow the rules by which it lived in life, in that it allows its love to lead his or her own life and defeat ordinary challenges without interference. Although an unattached resident usually remains close to home, it also walks among the living to remind itself of what could have been. Thus, its faith in its curse is renewed. It is a driven creature, clinging to self-hatred and anger, quick to offer love and devotion, and quick to defend its beloved surrogate.

A surrogate can detect a resident's presence from its small deeds. For example, if a bed is left unmade, the surrogate might return later to find that someone has done the chore. If the surrogate expresses a desire to have a certain trinket or other small item, that person might later find the desired item resting on a bed pillow. In determining its ability to move objects, consider the resident as effective as an unseen servant spell.

A resident is also a protector of its love, and it seeks vengeance on anyone who troubles the surrogate, particularly if the offender is beyond the surrogate's reach. If a noble speaks a harsh word to a resident's love, the noble risks retribution from the resident, often in the form of a single, oneround attack. To annoy a surrogate is to risk punishment; to gain its hatred by harming its beloved is to court death.

Combat: A resident can attack with its ghostly hands, inflicting 1d6 points of cold damage per strike. This is its usual attack against those it wishes to punish or drive away, but sees no need to kill. If it so chooses, however, it can also attempt to grasp a victim (two successful attack rolls are required). A grasp immediately inflicts 1d8 points of cold damage per round, as well as draining 1 point from either Strength, Dexterity, or Charisma (select randomly each round). Ability points are recovered at a rate of 1 per hour of rest. A victim drained of all ability points in any score dies at once, but will not come back as an undead being. Once the victim is grasped, the resident need not make another attack roll to continue damaging the opponent every round afterward. The resident will not relent in its attack unless its beloved surrogate is in danger (drawing its attention to someone else), or the resident is chased away.

The resident cannot be hit except by magical weapons. It is immune to sleep, charm, hold, cold, poison, and death magic. Holy water does 2d4 points of damage to it. Striking at a resident that is grasping a victim will inflict damage on the victim instead unless the attack roll is at least 4 points over the score needed to hit the resident. Any other result means the victim instead was struck, if the score rolled was sufficient to pierce the victim's Armor Class. A priest can turn a resident as a wraith; any result of turning or destruction causes the resident to flee or be dispersed for 2d6 days, after which it will return (see later).

A resident can be temporarily exorcised by defeating it in combat (including the use of holy water) or by a remove curse spell. Once all its hit points are gone or the spell is cast, the resident disperses or flees for 2d6 days. There is a 25% chance if remove curse is cast that the resident instead becomes enraged and attacks to kill the spellcaster and all other party members except the surrogate (50% chance), or else emits a keening wail of despair that will paralyze all within 60 feet of it for 1d6 rounds (save vs. paralyzation allowed) before it flees for 2d6 days (50% chance). Only if the resident is confronted with evidence that its surrogate does not wish it around, and an atonement spell is cast on it, will the resident permanently removed from the world.

Note that if a hero becomes aware that he or she has become the focus of a resident's misplaced affection, allowing such a relationship to continue without intervention will soon call for a powers check.

Habitat/Society: A resident cannot communicate except through magical, means such as a speak with dead spell, but it has little interest in anyone but the subject of its affections. A resident roams about a fixed location such as a building or grave site of importance to it in life, unless it is distracted by a surrogate.

Ecology: A resident has very little effect on either nature or civilization. It consumes nothing and almost never harms living beings unless its loved one is endangered. It is primarily an annoyance.

Originally appeared in Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium, Volume Two (1999).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 30, 2009)

OK, that's strange. Do we want there to be any mechanical link with the surrogate? For example, the resident (don't really like the name, BTW) gains bonuses when within X feet of him/her?


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2009)

Yeah, I like the idea of mechanical link with the surrogate.  And I agree the name is a bit weak.  

Take spectre stats and tone the Int down to average?

Str —, Dex 16, Con —, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 15


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 31, 2009)

Maybe bump Cha a little to compensate?


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2009)

They do need a better name, but there is definitely potential here.

Cha 17 or even 19?


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2009)

Sure, I could see 19.  These things are extremely strong of spirit and focused on their goal.

Added the basics to Homebrews.



> Combat: A resident can attack with its ghostly hands, inflicting 1d6 points of cold damage per strike. This is its usual attack against those it wishes to punish or drive away, but sees no need to kill. If it so chooses, however, it can also attempt to grasp a victim (two successful attack rolls are required). A grasp immediately inflicts 1d8 points of cold damage per round, as well as draining 1 point from either Strength, Dexterity, or Charisma (select randomly each round). Ability points are recovered at a rate of 1 per hour of rest. A victim drained of all ability points in any score dies at once, but will not come back as an undead being. Once the victim is grasped, the resident need not make another attack roll to continue damaging the opponent every round afterward. The resident will not relent in its attack unless its beloved surrogate is in danger (drawing its attention to someone else), or the resident is chased away.




Some sort of "ghost touch" improved grab/constrict?


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## freyar (Nov 2, 2009)

Yes, and I feel like we've done something similar like this before.  Hmm, have to think.


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## Leopold (Nov 3, 2009)

It's ability is a constant so i'm going for a Constricting type like a purple worm.  It must have improved grab so when it hits instagrapple check and then let it continue to hold onto the PC while it does other stuff.

Random stat 1d6: 
1-2 STR
3-4 DEX
5-6 CHA


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## freyar (Nov 5, 2009)

Well, I'm trying to remember what critter it was, but I feel like we had an incorporeal grapple and perhaps constrict ability recently.  Maybe the phaser sheen, but I don't know if that has everything I'm thinking of.


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2009)

Good memory.  

Incorporeal Jaunt (Su): A phaser sheen can become incorporeal as a swift action. It can become corporeal again as a swift action or a standard action. Unlike most incorporeal creatures, a phaser sheen may make grapple attacks against other incorporeal creatures, and they can be grappled by other incorporeal creatures. Both the sheen and its opponents use their Charisma modifiers when performing grapple checks while incorporeal. Starting on its fourth consecutive round of corporeality, a phaser sheen must either become incorporeal or spend one charge per round.


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2009)

That's almost but not quite what we want.

Let's give it 2 incorporeal touch attacks (1d6 cold plus incorporeal grasp) and write up this:

Incorporeal Grasp (Su): With 2? successful incorporeal touch attacks, a resident may attach itself to an opponent, moving into its space as if grappling that opponent.  Each round, the attached resident deals 1d8 points of cold damage and 1 point of ability damage to either Str, Dex, or Cha (select randomly each round).  A resident that has grasped a character may be removed by X?.

You know, at 6HD, it could almost do 1 pt of damage to all three of those stats.

Ideas for removal: takes X hp damage, spells like dispel evil, etc.?


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2009)

That might work.  We might also allow the victim to make an opposed grapple check, using its Cha modifier in place of its Str modifier.


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2009)

I thought about that, but the original text doesn't require extra rolls to do damage, which is a little different than the usual grapple/constrict schtick.  We could do that, though.


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2009)

Good point, that may be too much of a stretch.  

I like the idea of 1 point of damage to each of those abilities.


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

Anybody else have an opinion?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 12, 2009)

I like 1 point each Str, Dex, Cha damage. I also like grappling opposed by Cha.


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2009)

Something like this?

Incorporeal Grasp (Su): Unlike most incorporeal creatures, a resident may make grapple attacks against corporeal creatures. Both the resident and its opponents use their Charisma modifiers for performing grapple checks. 

Each round, the attached resident deals 1d8 points of cold damage and 1 point of each of Str, Dex, and Cha damage.


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## freyar (Nov 13, 2009)

Just like that!  Two questions: 1) Want to give it "improved grab" for this?  Yes for me!  2) Want to put the 1d8 cold damage at 1d6 to match the incorporeal touch?  I know, not the original, but maybe it's worth cleaning up (or not).


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## Shade (Nov 13, 2009)

1) Yes
2) No preference


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## freyar (Nov 13, 2009)

Let's just stick to 1d8 then.


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## Shade (Nov 13, 2009)

Updated.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 14, 2009)

Looking good so far.


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## freyar (Nov 14, 2009)

Agreed.  Anyone have a better name for these?  Amorous revenants?


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2009)

What is this, Creature Catalog After Hours (wokka chikka, wokka chikka).  



> A priest can turn a resident as a wraith; any result of turning or destruction causes the resident to flee or be dispersed for 2d6 days, after which it will return (see later).




Wraiths have +2 turn resistance.



> A resident can be temporarily exorcised by defeating it in combat (including the use of holy water) or by a remove curse spell. Once all its hit points are gone or the spell is cast, the resident disperses or flees for 2d6 days.




Rejuvenation 2d6 days later?



> There is a 25% chance if remove curse is cast that the resident instead becomes enraged and attacks to kill the spellcaster and all other party members except the surrogate (50% chance), or else emits a keening wail of despair that will paralyze all within 60 feet of it for 1d6 rounds (save vs. paralyzation allowed) before it flees for 2d6 days (50% chance).




Should we writeup the strange reaction to remove curse as a SQ?

Modify this to use paralysis rather than death?

Wail (Su): During the night, a banshee can loose a deadly wail. This attack can slay up to eighteen living creatures within a 30-foot spread centered on the banshee, or within a 60-foot cone extending from the banshee, at the creature's option. A successful Fortitude save (DC 26) negates the effect. Once a banshee wails, it must wait 1d4 rounds before it can do so again, and it can wail no more than three times per day.



> Only if the resident is confronted with evidence that its surrogate does not wish it around, and an atonement spell is cast on it, will the resident permanently removed from the world.




...and there is our permanent destruction criteria.


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## freyar (Nov 16, 2009)

It's the only time I have to get through all these threads! 

I agree with all those suggestions, though I admit not knowing what I'd like to do with remove curse.  I'd probably just go with the wail followed by dispersal and regeneration.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 17, 2009)

Let's make the remove curse vulnerability happen 100% of the time. None of this 25% nonsense.


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2009)

Here we go...

Keen of Despair (Su): A resident can unleash its keen as either a 60-foot cone or 30-foot spread centered on itself.  Creatures in the area must succeed on a DC 17 Fortitude save or become paralyzed with fear for 1d6 rounds.  Once a resident keens, it must wait 1d4 rounds before it can do so again, and it can keen no more than three times per day.  This is a sonic, fear effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

Rejuvenation (Su): In most cases, it’s difficult to destroy a resident through simple combat: The “destroyed” spirit will often restore itself in 2d6 days. Even the most powerful spells are usually only temporary solutions. A resident that would otherwise be destroyed returns to its old haunts with a successful level check (1d20 + resident's HD) against DC 16. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a resident for sure is to confront it with evidence that its surrogate does not wish it around, and then cast an atonement spell upon it. 

Vulnerability to Remove Curse (Su):  A remove curse or break enchantement spell cast upon a resident destroys it immediately unless it succeeds on a Will save.  The resident will rejuvenate as normal if destroyed in this manner.


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## freyar (Nov 17, 2009)

Doesn't the Keen of Despair just happen when it's destroyed by remove curse?  Or are we decoupling those for additional simplicity?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 18, 2009)

Let's decouple them so it can keen in combat, but add to the "vulnerability" SQ that this triggers the keening as an immediate action, regardless of whether it passes or fails?


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## Shade (Nov 18, 2009)

Excellent suggestion!

Updated.

Do we need a "bound to surrogate" ability, or will flavor text suffice?


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## freyar (Nov 18, 2009)

Agreed to that use for keening.

I think flavor is ok for the surrogate.  It's more that they just refuse to leave the surrogate alone rather than being bound to them.  And I think the text in rejuvenation is sufficient for getting rid of them.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 19, 2009)

I agree that the surrogate shouldn't have much mechanical benefit.


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2009)

Skills: 4 at 9 ranks

Feats: 3


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## freyar (Nov 19, 2009)

Hide, Listen, Spot, Search?

You know, before we get to the feats, 2 things:
1) Do we need to spell out improved grab as usual (keyed to incorporeal touch)?
2) Shouldn't these have some kind of telekinesis or mage hand ability to do things for their surrogate?


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2009)

1)  Probably
2)  Good idea.  Borrow from the ghost again?

Telekinesis (Su): A ghost can use telekinesis as a standard action (caster level 12th or equal to the ghost’s HD, whichever is higher). When a ghost uses this power, it must wait 1d4 rounds before using it again.


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## freyar (Nov 20, 2009)

Ghost telekinesis seems appropriate here, yes.  

Ability focus (keen of despair), Stealthy, Alertness?

Everything else looks good, so should we work on flavor now?


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2009)

How about Skill Focus (Search) rather than Stealthy, since it gains no benefit from Move Silently (as its always silent), and it probably needs Search to help it be a better stalker?


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## freyar (Nov 20, 2009)

That's a better idea, agreed!


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2009)

Updated.

I haven't finished the flavor text yet.


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## freyar (Nov 20, 2009)

Looks pretty good!  We should change "To annoy a surrogate is to risk punishment; to gain its hatred by harming its beloved is to court death." to "To annoy a surrogate is to risk punishment; to gain a resident's hatred by harming its beloved is to court death." for clarity.

Did we want to change the name to something else?  Something "stalker" has a nice ring to it, though there are a number of those.  It just has the right RL connotation (creepy as that is).


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2009)

I'd rather keep the (rather lame) name for ease of reference, but we can definiely offer up a more "stalkery" name in the flavor text.


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## freyar (Nov 21, 2009)

Fair enough.  I don't have a great idea for a better name as it is.


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## Shade (Nov 23, 2009)

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Nov 23, 2009)

I think so.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2009)

*Elemental, Smoke*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any smoke
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Smoke
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 4
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1-4
DAMAGE/ATTACK: See below
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: + 1 weapon or better to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
SIZE: S (4' tall)
MORALE: Elite (14)
XP VALUE: 1,400

Smoke elementals are hybrid creatures, a strange combination of the elements of Fire and Earth. These swirling clouds of hot soot, ash, and smoke are conjured from large amounts of nonmagical smoke. Sometimes this cloud contains glowing red sparks. It can assume any shape, but its edges tend to be hazy and ill-defined. If adopting a form with eyes, it will concentrate a cluster of soot and ash particles into swirling balls that resemble eyes, but this is for the sake of appearance only. A smoke elemental "sees" by sensing the lower temperatures of the creatures and objects around it.

Combat: Smoke elementals are unfettered by gravity. Because they have no solid form, they can slip through thin cracks and tiny holes, but they then must spend one round reforming into their chosen shape.

A smoke elemental attacks by engulfing an opponent's head. Once it has done this, the victim suffers 2d4 hit points of damage from heat, plus 2d4 hit points of damage from suffocation, per round. Victims choke to death as their lungs fill with hot smoke. A smoke elemental continues to engulf a single opponent until that victim is dead or unconscious. It then moves on to its next target. If a victim flees, the smoke elemental follows it, moving so that the victim's head remains inside the damaging cloud of smoke.

Smoke elementals have the unusual ability to divide themselves into four parts, each of which can act on its own initiative. These smaller clouds seek to enter a creature's lungs, where they inflict 1d4 points of damage each round. Once one of these smaller smoke elementals has lodged itself inside a creature's lungs, it remains there until its victim is unconscious or dead. Until then, it can only be removed by magical means (see below). Each of these tiny smoke elementals has 1 Hit Die.

Smoke elementals are immune to fire-based attacks, but they are vulnerable to cold-based attacks and suffer twice normal damage from them. They are also vulnerable to large gusts of wind, which do not harm the monsters, but can be successfully used to drive them away or keep them at bay. Because they are magical constructs, they can be magically dispelled.

Habitat: Smoke elementals are magical constructs whose constituents are drawn both from the Elemental Plane of Fire (heat) and the Elemental Plane of Earth (soot or ash). Although they are sentient, they have no form on any plane but the Prime Material and Ethereal Planes. They cannot be banished or dismissed back to a home plane, since they don't have one, but such spells will drive them from a victim's lungs.

Ecology: Smoke elementals are typically created by a team of three priests who simultaneously cast the magical spells conjure fire elemental, conjure earth elemental, and combine. They are often used by priests as magical guardians of temples, and they are typically created out of sweet-smelling incense smoke, although they can be formed from the smoke of mundane fires.

There have also been reports of tiny (1-HD) smoke elementals conjured from tobacco smoke, but most sages insist these reports are merely attempts by tobacconists to falsely attribute a magical cause to deaths that are caused by the tobacco smoke itself.

Originally appeared in Awakening (1994).


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2009)

Although they are mentioned as "magical constructs", shall we instead just make them hybrid elementals?

Perhaps some blend of Small earth and fire elementals' ability scores?

Earth: Str 17, Dex 8, Con 13, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11
Fire: Str 10, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11

FWIW, the smoke paraelemental has Str 10, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11.  It is a blending of Air and Fire, though, hence the higher Dex score.

Also, the suffocation described sounds alot like the smoke paraelemental's (based on the belker's) smoke claws ability.


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## freyar (Dec 2, 2009)

I was thinking along the lines of a belker, too, with extra fire damage and perhaps suffocation rules (though probably not).  Maybe these should be gaseous pretty much all the time, though I could also see letting them switch like a belker since neither elemental is gaseous.  I don't particularly think they need to divide into 4 parts, as I think smoke claws does what they intend there.

Maybe Str 13, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11?  

I agree that these should be elementals.  I think the "construction" bit is more like the creation of some kinds of magical beasts.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2009)

I think the Dex needs to be higher, but otherwise the ability scores appeal.

I agree that they needn't be gaseous all the time.  I imagine they are no less substantial than air elementals or smoke paraelementals, neither of which have any gaseous traits.


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## freyar (Dec 2, 2009)

Let's follow the belker on smoke claws and smoke form, then.  

Dex 14 and +5 natural armor?  

Since these are "lesser belkers" at least by HD, maybe we should tone down their smoke claw damage.  Or increase their HD.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2009)

Hmmm...I'm tempted to say we make 'em Medium, as their 4 HD lines up perfectly with Medium earth and fire elementals.   Thoughts?


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2009)

4 ft is borderline Small - Medium, right?  So I'm ok with Medium if there are no objections.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2009)

If we increase to Medium, let's revisit the ability scores:

Medium Earth Elemental: Str 21, Dex 8, Con 17, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11
Medium Fire Elemental: Str 12, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11
Medium Smoke Paraelemental: Str 12, Dex 21, Con 14, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11

Str 13, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 4, 2009)

Wait, why are we even doing these? These are smoke elementals. There are already smoke elementals--you've mentioned them multiple times!


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2009)

The differences are small, but these are "elementals" rather than "paraelementals" (I know...semantics), and are a blending of Earth and Fire rather than Air and Fire.

I'd be content to call 'em one and the same, though.


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2009)

I sense Shade would be happier doing these.   I say we play up the differences between the Air-Fire and Earth-Fire mixes.  Maybe reduce the Dex more and increase natural some.  I think we can also alter the smoke claws a bit.  Make it more choking and less fire or something.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2009)

Your Shade-sense misled you.  

The more I look at these, the more similar I find them to smoke paraelementals.


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2009)

Maybe that was my bat-sense tingling, then.  Let's declare them paraelementals and be done with them.


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2009)

Here's another potential elemental...

*Spiders, Vodoni Space*

*Space*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Space
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Cell, or colony
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Minerals
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional (15-16)
TREASURE: See below
ALIGNMENT: Lawful neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-10, or 30+
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 8
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8/1-8/1-10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poison
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (10' diameter body)
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE: 2000

*Spinner*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Space
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Nest
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Minerals
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional (15-16)
TREASURE: See below
ALIGNMENT: Lawful neutral
NO. APPEARING: 2-20
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 10
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10/1-10/1-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poison
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (10' diameter body)
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE: 4000

These large crystal spiders are very rare throughout the universe, as they are known to be both intelligent and shy. They most resemble large glass spiders, with strange, multi-colored internal organs. They appear to be more mineral than organic. How they communicate is a mystery, but they occasionally produce a high-pitched tinkling sound.

Combat: The crystal pincers and razor bite of the typical space spider is enough to chew through even a metal hull, given time. Anyone bitten by the spider must save vs. poison or die in 2-5 rounds (1d4+1). They do take damage from the second level mage spell, shatter.

Habitat/Society: These creatures are not evil, but are generally so secretive about their lairs that anyone or anything that wanders into their lair, even accidentally, is immediately killed to protect the secret location of the nest. A typical nest will 30-180 spiders, 3-18 diamond spinners, and one master spinner.

Vulkaran has a nest of these creatures guarding the entrance to his palace, but only a few Vodoni citizens outside the palace know what lies just within the great gate. The rest of the populace knows only legends and rumors.

Ecology: Space spiders are a combination of organic and mineral life. Their origin, whether on the Elemental Plane of Earth or as the result of some ancient magical experiment, is unclear, but most scholars believe the spiders are distant relatives of the xorn, xaren, and most probably crysmals. In fact, the resemblance of the space spiders to the latter has led many to suppose that space spiders are actually a more advanced space-based form of the crysmal.

The eggs of the space spiders are known to have diamonds in them worth 10-100 gp each. It is not known whether the gems are produced naturally within the mother spider and then laid with the egg, or whether the egg-laying process requires the location of a suitable supply of diamonds. Sages tend to believe the latter is true, due the immense rarity of the creatures, and of the diamond-laden asteroids they are known to inhabit. It is known for certain, however, that the young hatchlings devour the diamond enclosed in their crystalline shell as they grow, much as a young chicken feeds off the yolk of an egg before it is ready to hatch. The young mature fully within twenty days.

Diamond Spinners
These are the mother spiders of the race, and are the most able to defend the precious eggs of their young so treasured by adventurers the universe over.
In addition to the powers of the common space spider, the spinner can jump a full 150 feet horizontally or vertically. This is usually used to ambush intruders to the lair or pursue those lucky enough to have evaded the spinners on the way in.

Master Spider
This is simply the oldest, wisest diamond spinner of the lair. As such, it has maximum hit points and the ability to communicate telepathically with all its offspring. The master spider guides the construction of the lair, a bubble-like maze, through mental commands.

Originally appeared in SJA4 - Under the Dark Fist (1991).


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## freyar (Dec 7, 2009)

With the relation to xorn and xaren, I'd say elemental.

Should we do 3 different statblocks, or 2 with an underbar for the master?


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2009)

Agreed to elemental.

I'm fine with either statting the master spider or making it an underbar of the diamond spinner.

Here's a somewhat similar creature we might use for ability score inspiration:  
Crystal Spider


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## freyar (Dec 7, 2009)

I remember that one.  That was kind of weird.

Shall we start with the regular space spiders?  Mental stats appear pretty good due to the listed Int (16 to 20 range), and we can compare to the average and elder xorn for physical stats (HD are like average xorn, size is like elder).


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2009)

Sounds good, but we should probably shift some points from Str to Dex for these things, or even swap the xorn's Str and Dex scores.


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2009)

Swapping Str and Dex works.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2009)

Average Xorn: Str 17, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10
Elder Xorn: Str 25, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10

So maybe...Str 10, Dex 21, Con 17, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 16?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2009)

Way too weak. I like them being weaker and more dexterous than xorn, but these guys were worth 2000xp! Likewise, I'd recommend I'd recommend boosting their HD. As we all know, outsider and elemental types were often over-XPed and under HDed, and we should bring these guys up to snuff. 

I'd put the Str and Dex at 16 and 18, or something like that.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2009)

Yeah, I like Str 16, Dex 18 better.  As for HD, I don't have much of an opinion.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2009)

Boost to 10 HD for standard, 12 HD for spinner?


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2009)

Sounds fine.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2009)

I just realized that xorns are actually outsiders, not elementals.  Do we want to make these outsiders as well?


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2009)

Oops, that was a small mistake. Yes, they should be Outsiders (earth) and possibly native, I guess!


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 11, 2009)

Another vote for outsider.


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Freyar suggested possibly adding the Native subtype.  Is Native or Extraplanar a better fit?   What about the Lawful subtype?   If so, we'll need to make them "always" rather than "usually" on the alignment line.

What, if any, of the following xorn traits should we retain?

earth glide
damage reduction 5/bludgeoning
immunity to cold and fire
resistance to electricity 10
tremorsense 60 ft.


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## freyar (Dec 11, 2009)

Well, I suggested native because they seem like they're mostly found in the (Spelljammery regions of) the Material Plane.  I'm not getting enough Law from them to go with the Lawful subtype, but you could convince me.

Keep tremorsense, as that's pretty spidery.  DR 5/bludgeoning makes sense, but the original stats have a harder time justifying the energy resistances and immunities.  They might work, though, especially for the spinners. I don't really like earth glide for these.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 11, 2009)

I like native outsider, no Law type, immunity to fire and cold. Because they live in space, which can provide extremes of either.


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2009)

That works for me.


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2009)

Updated.



> Anyone bitten by the spider must save vs. poison or die in 2-5 rounds (1d4+1).




Suggested poison?



> They do take damage from the second level mage spell, shatter.




Should we note that they are particularly vulnerable to shatter?


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## freyar (Dec 14, 2009)

If I recall,  the 2e wyvern went from save or die poison to heavy Con damage poison in 3e.  So we could do that or be mean and stick to save or die.  Given the flavor and context, I think I'd go with Con damage.

Take damage from sonic effects as crystalline objects (double?).


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2009)

I think I agree with you on both counts.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 15, 2009)

Agreed to Con damage. We should give them ordinary vulnerability to sonic, and note that they count as crystalline creatures for the purposes of any spells that target those specifically (like shatter and shout).


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2009)

1d8 Con/1d8 Con seem tough enough?  It's less than the wyvern, so we could go as high as 2d6/2d6.

Agreed to sonic vulnerability plus crystalline.


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2009)

1d8/1d8 seems reasonable.  It's identical to a phase spider.

Updated.

Give 'em a climb speed?   How about any of the common racial bonuses for hunting spiders?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 15, 2009)

Climb speed and racial bonuses seem appropriate.


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2009)

Agreed.  

Since the bite can chew through a spelljammer's hull, should we give them the ability to bypass some amount of hardness?


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2009)

That's not a bad idea.   Bypass 5 points?


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2009)

That's about what I was thinking, so I agree!


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2009)

Ignoring five points of hardness seems fair. And encourages us to give it Improved Sunder as a feat!


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2009)

Updated.

Well, we've got one feat down.     How about the other three?

Skills: 5 at 13 ranks
Feats: Improved Sunder, 3 more


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2009)

Well, it needs Power Attack to qualify for Improved Sunder. Then Multiattack and Combat Reflexes?

How about full ranks in Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Spot and Jump?


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2009)

Sounds good to me!

CR 6?  Standard treasure.  Usually LN.  We need to figure out how advancement should work with the spinners -- do these only advance to 1 HD less than the diamond spinners?


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2009)

Updated.

Environment: Any land and space?

Do we need to give them a breathless ability to explain how they survive in space?



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> We need to figure out how advancement should work with the spinners -- do these only advance to 1 HD less than the diamond spinners?




I think so.  Didn't we decide on 15 HD for the diamond spinners?  If so, Advancement 11-14 HD (Large)?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 17, 2009)

Agreed to breathless and max of 14 HD.


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2009)

Agreed!


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2009)

Updated.

Vodoni space spiders are 10 feet in diameter and weigh x pounds.  (Elder xorns are about 8 feet tall and wide and weigh about 9,000 pounds.)


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2009)

10000 lb.  I don't see these as being quite as, umm, solid and rotund as xorn.


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2009)

Sounds good.  Are we ready for the diamond spinners?



> Diamond Spinners
> These are the mother spiders of the race, and are the most able to defend the precious eggs of their young so treasured by adventurers the universe over.
> 
> In addition to the powers of the common space spider, the spinner can jump a full 150 feet horizontally or vertically. This is usually used to ambush intruders to the lair or pursue those lucky enough to have evaded the spinners on the way in.


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2009)

Just add 5HD and a leap ability?  If we don't do something else, maybe this is only an underbar.


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2009)

Although it doesn't exactly follow the original description, I wouldn't mind making them Huge.


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2009)

I'll agree to that.  Still, it hardly seems like enough for a new statblock.  Just change the advancement and put an underbar saying "15HD and above space spiders are known as diamond spinners and gain the leap special ability."  Let's also bump Wis to make them better at spotting intruders and, since they're spinners, given them a web ability.  Perhaps even an extra tough web since it's made of diamond.


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2009)

That sounds good.  Perhaps increase Cha as well, since they are subleaders?


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2009)

Sure! Int 16, Wis 19, Cha 18 to go with the usual physical changes due to size increase?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2009)

All this sounds good, and different enough that we should make a seperate statblock. We can give them other minor alterations, too, like letting them overcome more hardness, give them DR and SR, that sort of thing.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2009)

Yeah, I think we have enough for a new statblock, too.  Also agreed to slight bumps suggested.


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

I bumped the DR from 5 to 10.  Does that appeal?

Suggested SR amount?

Also, I think we miscalculated the skills for the regular spiders.  As outsiders with an Int of 16, they should have 11 skills or more.   I must've confused 'em with elementals at the time, as I said "5 at 13 ranks".   So suggestions for the remaining 6 skills?


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## freyar (Dec 21, 2009)

Ok, we have ranks in Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Spot, and Jump.   Let's also give them Climb (just to make them very good), Balance, Tumble, Intimidate, and maybe Bluff or a Knowledge?


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2009)

Since they are usually lawful, I'm not really feeling the Bluff vibe.  How about Sense Motive to help ascertain threats?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 22, 2009)

Agreed to Sense Motive.

For the greaters, DR 10/bludgeoning is alright, but I'd prefer DR 5/-


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## freyar (Dec 22, 2009)

I can agree to all those suggestions.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2009)

DR 5/- works for me.

We're still a skill short.  We've got Balance, Climb, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motve, Spot, and Tumble.  

Search?  Escape Artist?


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## freyar (Dec 22, 2009)

Escape Artist seems little better to me.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2009)

Updated space spider and diamond spinner.

Feats: Combat Reflexes, Improved Sunder, Multiattack, Power Attack, 2 more

Advancement: 16-x HD (Huge)

Diamond spinners are 15 feet in diameter and weigh x pounds.


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## freyar (Dec 22, 2009)

Before the feats, do we want to give them any kind of web ability?  They are spinners after all.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2009)

Yeah...that's odd that they don't have one.

That said, I'm not sure that they use webs:



> The master spider guides the construction of the lair, a bubble-like maze, through mental commands.




Perhaps they spin a diamond-colored crystal that is used to make something similar to a paper wasp's nest?

We could borrow the secrete crystal from one of the tohr-kreen we converted.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 22, 2009)

I like the crystal paper wasp thing.

Feats: Combat Expertise and Imp. Initiative?


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2009)

Feats sound good. 

Here is the secrete crystal...

Secrete Crystal (Ex): A j'hol can secrete a liquid that quickly hardens into a crystalline substance. A j'hol can produce up to 5 pounds of crystal each day, which may be used as raw materials in the creation of any item that could normally be crafted from wood, stone, or metal. Multiple j'hol can combine their crystal to create larger objects. A weapon or armor created with this crystal functions exactly the same as its wood, stone, or metal counterparts, except the crystal has hardness 8 and 25 hit points per inch of thickness. Crystalline items may be enhanced my magic as if they were a wood, stone, or metal item. Crystalline items are more susceptible to shatter spells (see the shatter spell description) and similar effects. 

A j'hol can craft a weapon or similar-sized item out of its newly excreted crystal in 1 minute, and a suit of armor or similarly-sized item in 5 minutes. Larger items follow the normal rules found in the Craft skill description. 



Do we need to modify that at all?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 22, 2009)

Well, I don't think the spider's going to be making weapons and armor, so we may wish to drop that paragraph.


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## freyar (Dec 23, 2009)

Yes.  Instead, let's say

"Diamond spinners use this material to build their maze-like hives."

Maybe we should talk about the maze hives under the master spinner (whether that gets a separate statblock or underbar).


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2009)

Modifying it a bit to fit the diamond spinner's purposes....

Secrete Crystal (Ex): A diamond spinner can secrete a liquid that quickly hardens into a crystalline substance. A diamond spinner can produce up to 50 (?) pounds of crystal each day, which may be used as raw materials in the creation of any item that could normally be crafted from wood, stone, or metal. Multiple diamond spinners can combine their crystal to create larger objects (such as the walls of their hives). A weapon or armor created with this crystal functions exactly the same as its wood, stone, or metal counterparts, except the crystal has hardness 8 and 25 hit points per inch of thickness. Crystalline items may be enhanced my magic as if they were a wood, stone, or metal item. 

A typical hive wall is one-foot thick, having 300 hit points per 10-ft.-by-10-ft. section.  The break and climb DCs are both 30.  Crystalline walls and items are more susceptible to shatter spells (see the shatter spell description) and similar effects.


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## freyar (Dec 23, 2009)

I like it.


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## Cleon (Dec 25, 2009)

Shade said:


> Modifying it a bit to fit the diamond spinner's purposes....
> 
> Secrete Crystal (Ex): A diamond spinner can secrete a liquid that quickly hardens into a crystalline substance. A diamond spinner can produce up to 50 (?) pounds of crystal each day, which may be used as raw materials in the creation of any item that could normally be crafted from wood, stone, or metal. Multiple diamond spinners can combine their crystal to create larger objects (such as the walls of their hives). A weapon or armor created with this crystal functions exactly the same as its wood, stone, or metal counterparts, except the crystal has hardness 8 and 25 hit points per inch of thickness. Crystalline items may be enhanced my magic as if they were a wood, stone, or metal item.
> 
> A typical hive wall is one-foot thick, having 300 hit points per 10-ft.-by-10-ft. section.  The break and climb DCs are both 30.  Crystalline walls and items are more susceptible to shatter spells (see the shatter spell description) and similar effects.




You'll need to up the quantities significantly. If it is as dense as rock crystal (specific gravity 2.65) the crystal would weigh ~165 pounds per square feet and it would take a diamond spinner spider 82.5 days to create a single 5 by 5 foot section of hive wall. Diamond is denser (p=3.52 => 220lbs per cubic foot), so it would require 110 days to secrete the same size piece of wall.

I'd suggest changing it to "50 cubic feet of crystal each day" - that's two 5*5 ft. sections per day, and you don't have to fiddle about specifying a weight.


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## freyar (Dec 26, 2009)

Going by cubic feet per day makes a lot of sense.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 26, 2009)

Agreed to the dimensions thing.


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## Shade (Dec 28, 2009)

Absolutely!  Thanks for figuring that out.

Updated.

SR = CR + 11?

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: 16-45 HD (Huge)?

Diamond spinners are 15 feet in diameter and weigh x pounds.


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## freyar (Dec 28, 2009)

SR, advancement seem good.  30000 lb (a little less than volume scaling from the regular space spiders).  CR 9, I guess.


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## Shade (Dec 28, 2009)

Updated.



> *Master Spider*
> This is simply the oldest, wisest diamond spinner of the lair. As such, it has maximum hit points and the ability to communicate telepathically with all its offspring. The master spider guides the construction of the lair, a bubble-like maze, through mental commands.




Are we making the master spider an underbar of the diamond spinners, or giving it its own entry?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 28, 2009)

I think the master spider can be an underbar. How about fully advanced rather than max hit points?


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## Shade (Dec 28, 2009)

That sounds great.

Give it simple telepathy with all spiders in its hive, or something more like empathic link?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 29, 2009)

Telepathy, I think.


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## freyar (Dec 29, 2009)

Agreed to telepathy.  I'd also like to add some sort of "natural maze" ability, like with the manotaur:



			
				Manotaur said:
			
		

> Forest Maze (Ex): A manotaur can create a natural labyrinth in its home forest. To do so, the manotaur must spend at least a month pounding out these paths with their hooves. This maze may cover up to one square mile. Any creature entering this natural maze must succeed on a DC 25 Survival check or become lost (see Getting Lost in the Dungeon Master\'s Guide).


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## Shade (Dec 29, 2009)

Good idea!

Updated.

Look OK?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 31, 2009)

Things look good, although we might want to change all instances of "vodoni space spiders" into "diamond spinners" in the special abilities text. Inconsistency can be confusing.


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## Shade (Dec 31, 2009)

Updated.

Finished?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 1, 2010)

Where did the CR come from? They're really powerful for CR 9, what with their +20 attack bonuses and 142 hit points.


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2010)

Actually, compare to a CR 8 Gargantuan monstrous spider, and they're not more than a point or two of CR better, I'd think.  The poison, despite a better DC, is actually weaker.  And they're not as strong as a CR 11 Colossal monstrous spider.   I'd say a good comparison is the bebelith at CR 10, and it's pretty similar actually.


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2010)

That's sound reasoning.  Updated.


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## freyar (Jan 4, 2010)

All done?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2010)

I'll buy it.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2010)

*Sentinel*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: The Hive
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: See below
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: See below
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 6
HIT DICE: 16 (60 hp)
THACO: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-20 (2d10)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
SIZE: L (18’tall)
MORALE: See below
XP VALUE: 14,000

These golem-like creations are actually animated suits of armor crafted for the Sazaur beholders by the Arcane. The suits were meant to help the Sazaur guard against unwanted intrusion into the Hive complex. Similar in construction to iron golems, these mighty weapons consist mostly of bronze with sinews of steel and other, more esoteric compounds.

Sentinels look like huge suits of bronze armor, three times the height of a man, and weigh more than 5,000 pounds. Angular and severe in design, the armor has many projecting spikes and overlapping plates. Sentinels carry huge tridents, also crafted of bronze. Carved with line after line of intricate runework, these terminate in three cruel backbarbed prongs that crackle with power.

Although it is not obvious from the outside, the helmet is hollow. A beholder can ride inside, peering out through the visor. A device in this chamber functions something like a spelljamming helm, turning the magic powers of the beholder pilot into motive force. While the beholder controls the Sentinel, it may make no other action, for all of its abilities are channelled into the armor. This is tiring work for the pilot, and it must leave the armor after ld8+7 hours for at least eight hours of rest.

Combat: Unlike golems, the Sentinel has the exceptional intellect of the beholder controlling it. The automaton-suit has a Strength of 23 for the purposes of lifting, throwing, or breaking objects.

In addition to the Armor Class conferred by the bronze plating, Sentinels are immune to any normal weapon that does not have a + 1 or better enchantment. These constructs do not have the vulnerability to electricity possessed by iron golems, but they are not healed by fire, either. While animated by a beholder, the suits have spell resistance equivalent to that provided by a minorglobe of inuulnerability.

The Sentinel has two basic attack forms. Its trident strikes for 2d10 damage. Also, the beholder pilot can project its power through the three prongs of the trident. The Sentinel points the weapon and projects three beams of black energy at its chosen target (maximum range 60 yards). A successful hit inflicts 2d6 + 1 damage: also, the victim must save vs. death magic or drop unconscious for 1-4 rounds.

HabitatlSociety: The Sentinels were created for the Sazaur nation of beholders to guard the Hive. They have no life or animation without a beholder to power them. While uninhabited, the suits stand motionless, awaiting a pilot. 

Ecology: Sentinels are more like armor and equipment than living things. Although they do not eat or sleep, the beholders in them do, so they cannot provide the eternal vigilance of a golem unless manned by beholders working in shifts.

Only the Arcane know the spells needed to repair damage inflicted to them, so any wounds dealt them are permanent.

Controlling Sentinels: Ordinarily, only beholders can control these constructs. Optionally, the DM may allow a PC wizard or priest to attempt control of a suit by climbing inside its helmet. This can be fun for players and allows some memorable role-playing scenes. However, a Sentinel suit makes PCs very powerful, and control of the suit should be sharply restricted.

For example, using the suit may require an Intelligence or Wisdom check every turn or every round during combat. Magical “feedback” may inflict hit point damage on the occupant or temporarily reduce his ability scores. Particularly strenuous work or work over a long period may cause the suit to break apart.

Finally, the DM may say that the Sentinel suits are enchanted so that they cannot leave a particular section of the Hive. Beyond that invisible line, they simply fail.

Originally appeared in SJA1 - Wildspace (1990).


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## freyar (Feb 21, 2010)

Mmm, golem with crunchy beholder filling!  I think we're going to have to bump the attacks, though, as they don't sound like much right now.


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## Shade (Feb 22, 2010)

I'm wondering if this might work best as a template applied to a beholder while it is "worn"...


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## Cleon (Feb 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> Mmm, golem with crunchy beholder filling!  I think we're going to have to bump the attacks, though, as they don't sound like much right now.




They do seem a bit wimpy compared to a beholder. We'll have to do something about that AC 4 as well, it's pretty pathetic compared to a standard AD&D Beholder's AC 0/2/7 or an Iron Golem's AC3.

Hmm, that gives me an idea - there's nothing here saying they can't be animated by the lesser breeds of beholder as well as the "full beholders". Perhaps operating these golems is a guard duty performed by *Watchers* or *Directors*? That would justify it as a "combat boost" to the occupant.

Here's another thing, how does a 6' diameter beholder fit inside the helmet of one of these things? Even for an 18-foot tall humanoid suit of armour it would appear to have a ridiculously large head! Does the helmet have some kind of shrinking-function?

Oh, and speaking of that helmet, there's something about the line "A device in this chamber functions something like a spelljamming helm, turning the magic powers of the beholder pilot into motive force" that really, really makes me want to have this thing be able to fly like a spelljammer (or a beholder,  even).


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## Cleon (Feb 24, 2010)

Let's start talking stats.

While the original might say "Large" these are definitely Huge Constructs in 3E terms. That also helps explain how a Large Aberration can fit inside one.

I'd like to keep the 16 Hit Dice of the original and base its stats on a slightly weaker SRD Iron Golem.

Compared to an AD&D Iron Golem it has the same speed, 3/4 the hit points and does 1/2 the damage, its AC is a point lower. The original's Str 23 is the same as a Cloud Giant.

So, give it the SRD Cloud Giant's Str and an Iron Golem's speed & abilities?

Make its AC 2 less than the SRD Iron Golem's AC30?

I'm also thinking since it wields a weapon (the trident) we can give it an iterative full attack. That will help even out its damage. The tri-beams appear to be a ranged touch like an eye-ray, so I think they need to go in the attack line as well.

That would make it something like:

*Golem, Sentinel*
Huge Construct
Hit Dice: 16d10+40 (128 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 20 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 28 (-2 size, -1 Dex, +21 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 28
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+32
Attack: Trident +22 melee (3d6+18) or tri-beam +11 ranged touch (*6d6+3*?)
Full Attack: Trident +22/+17/+2 melee (3d6+18) or 3 tri-beams +11 ranged touch (*6d6+3*?)
Special Attacks: Tri-beams
Special Qualities: All-around vision? [like a beholder], construct traits, DR Y/magic?, darkvision 60 ft., spell immunity, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +5
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 9, Con -, Int -*, Wis -*, Cha -* [* use pilot beholder's mental abilities]
Skills: —
Feats: —

What do you think?


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## freyar (Mar 2, 2010)

That's a reasonable start, and it might fit with the template idea.  Flight is good with me, too.


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2010)

Agreed.  I like where this is heading.


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## Cleon (Mar 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> Agreed.  I like where this is heading.




Me too!

So we all seem to be OK with the Flight, so I'll un-red that.

What damage do you fancy for the tri-beams? The original did 2d6+1, but that seems way to weak.

Comparing it to the slam attacks, each tri-beam did a point less than the original's slam attacks (2d8), which now averages roughly three times that damage once the +18 bonus from the golem's strength is factored in.

Shall we triple the tri-beam's damage as well, to 6d6+3 apiece?

I'll red that into post #712.


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## freyar (Mar 7, 2010)

Well, the beams should certainly be powerful, or else why would beholders have these?  Let's not forget that they require a save or cause unconsciousness, too.  I could even see using disintegrate as a baseline for the beam.


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2010)

Perhaps not disintegrate, due to the unconsiousness.  The "black rays" almost suggest negative energy, which would fit in with the beholder's inflict moderate wounds.

Tripling the damage may be OK, but if we're allowing something like a gauth to pilot one, it might be a bit too effective.


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## freyar (Mar 8, 2010)

Hmmph.  Should we tie it to the HD of the beholderkin pilot in some way?


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2010)

If we treat the golem as a separate creature, it's probably not an issue, as its CR will be fixed, and the beholder(kin) pilot will have its own CR.

I looked through the list of beholderkin, and it appears that most have some form of negative energy ray, which could "power" the golem's tri-beam.


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## freyar (Mar 9, 2010)

Ok, I still wasn't sure if we're doing a template or monster.

It might make sense that "real" beholders force lesser beholderkin to pilot these things, anyway, in which case a monster treatment could make more sense.  We'd just need to decide on the overall power level.


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## Cleon (Mar 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ok, I still wasn't sure if we're doing a template or monster.
> 
> It might make sense that "real" beholders force lesser beholderkin to pilot these things, anyway, in which case a monster treatment could make more sense.  We'd just need to decide on the overall power level.




At the moment I'm thinking of them as something more monster and a template. They're built like a monster but are directed by their beholderkin pilot, so use the beholder's mental stats.

I suppose they could use some of the beholderkin's others stats (Skills? Feats? Saves if better than the golem's?), but the beholder may be unable to precisely control its movements, due to the vast difficulties in their anatomy. i.e. the beholder would mentally order the golem to "lift that bale", but it would not be like the beholder is possessing the golem's body and using its bale-lifting skills and feats.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2010)

Originally, I thought it would work best as a template.  As this has developed, however, I think a straight monster format works back.  Rather than using the beholder(kin)'s mental stats, it should simply follow the commands of its pilot, like other constructs follow the mental commands of their creators.  The pilot would still be able to use its own mental faculties for its own abilities.

Perhaps it should require concentration for the pilot to move or attack with the suit?


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## Cleon (Mar 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Originally, I thought it would work best as a template.  As this has developed, however, I think a straight monster format works back.  Rather than using the beholder(kin)'s mental stats, it should simply follow the commands of its pilot, like other constructs follow the mental commands of their creators.  The pilot would still be able to use its own mental faculties for its own abilities.
> 
> Perhaps it should require concentration for the pilot to move or attack with the suit?




Doesn't that clash with the "While the beholder controls the Sentinel, it may make no other action, for all of its abilities are channelled into the armor." bit of the original?

I think treating it as a golem with some of the beholder's traits is a better fit to the original description.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2010)

I agree with Cleon here, so somehow we want a monster that acts a little template-ish.  Perhaps the controlling the Sentinel only leaves so much mental facility left over for "Intelligence"?


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2010)

OK.  Added to Homebrews.



> In addition to the Armor Class conferred by the bronze plating, Sentinels are immune to any normal weapon that does not have a + 1 or better enchantment.




I'd vastly prefer DR x/adamantine like most metallic golems than x/magic.



> These constructs do not have the vulnerability to electricity possessed by iron golems, but they are not healed by fire, either. While animated by a beholder, the suits have spell resistance equivalent to that provided by a minorglobe of inuulnerability.




So, essentially, it's immune to all spell effects of 3rd level or lower.  Odd, but do-able.


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## Cleon (Mar 13, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'd vastly prefer DR x/adamantine like most metallic golems than x/magic.




Me to. Let's make it Damage Reduction 10/adamantine. It's not as tough as an Iron Golem, but being made of metal should give it a higher DR than a Fleshie.



Shade said:


> So, essentially, it's immune to all spell effects of 3rd level or lower.  Odd, but do-able.




Yes, it's easy enough. Something like:*Minor Spell Invulnerability (Su):* A sentinel golem that is being piloted by a beholder or beholder-kin can not be affected by any spell or spell-like ability of 3rd level or lower, just as if it were within the area of a _lesser globe of invulnerability_ spell (caster level equal to the beholder's hit dice). The golem's spell invulnerability also protects all objects the golem is carrying, including its beholder pilot. This defense can be brought down by a targeted _dispel magic_, but will automatically reinstate itself at the end of the golem's next round.​Maybe add a Greater Sentinel that excludes 4th level spells too, like a full _globe of invulnerability_?


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2010)

DR 10/adamantine is good, and so is the spell invulnerability.


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2010)

Good ideas all around.  Updated.

How does this look for the tri-beam writeup?

Tri-beams (Su): A beholder pilot can channel its eye rays through the sentinel's trident to produce a magical tri-beam once per round as a free action.  These three black beams of negative energy may be targeted at a single creature within 60 feet.  A successful hit deals 6d6+3 points of negative energy damage (a successful Will save halves the damage).   Additionally, a creature damaged by the tri-beam must succeed on a Fortitude save or fall unconscious for x rounds.   The save DCs are equal to 10 + 1/2 sentinel's Hit Dice + Cha modifier of beholder pilot (18 + Cha modifier of beholder pilot for a typical sentinel).

Since undead are powered by negative energy, a tri-ray cures such a creature of a like amount of damage, rather than harming it.  A tri-beam follows all the rules for a ray (see Aiming a Spell, page 175 of the Player's Handbook).


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## freyar (Mar 15, 2010)

Works for me!


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## Shade (Mar 16, 2010)

Suggested duration for unconsciousness?


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## Cleon (Mar 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> Good ideas all around.  Updated.
> 
> How does this look for the tri-beam writeup?
> 
> ...




I'd prefer it to be a standard action or an attack instead of a free action. The original says it "The Sentinel points the weapon and projects three beams of black energy  at its chosen target", not that it can go tri-beaming while skewering opponents with its trident.

The range is also short - the original was 60 _yards_, so I'd make it either 180 feet or 200 feet depending on whether I want to round it up.

Finally, I'd rather make it force damage rather than negative energy. If it healed Undead you'd think that would be mentioned in the description.

Oh, and there's no mention of reduced damage on a save, so I'd leave the save to just cover the consciousness save, which should last 1d4 round according to the original description.

Put all that together and you get something like:

*Tri-beams (Su):* A beholder pilot can channel its eye rays through the  sentinel's trident to produce a magical tri-beam as a standard action.  These three black beams of energy may be targeted  at a single creature within 180 feet.  A successful hit deals 6d6+3  points of force damage.   Additionally, a creature damaged by the tri-beam must succeed  on a Fortitude save or fall unconscious for 1d4 rounds. A tri-beam follows all the rules for a ray (see Aiming a Spell, page 175  of the Player's Handbook).  The save DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 sentinel's Hit Dice + Cha modifier of the beholder  pilot (18 + Cha modifier of beholder pilot for a typical sentinel).


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## Shade (Mar 16, 2010)

Nice catch on the action and the range.  Standard and 180 feet works for me.

I'd like to stick with negative energy, though, since as we discussed upthread, nearly all beholderkin have some sort of _inflict_ ray, which explains the negative energy.  Not many have a force effect.

Besides, it would be kinda fun for a sentinel to heal their death tyrant and kasharin allies.


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## Cleon (Mar 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> Nice catch on the action and the range.  Standard and 180 feet works for me.
> 
> I'd like to stick with negative energy, though, since as we discussed upthread, nearly all beholderkin have some sort of _inflict_ ray, which explains the negative energy.  Not many have a force effect.
> 
> Besides, it would be kinda fun for a sentinel to heal their death tyrant and kasharin allies.




I'm happy making it negative energy so long as the action & range are "fixed".


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2010)

Updated.

Do we need to make an ability describing the piloting, or just explain the process in the flavor text?

Do we need Construction, or can we handwave it since only beholders should be building them?


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## Cleon (Mar 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Do we need to make an ability describing the piloting, or just explain the process in the flavor text?




I'd make it a "Beholder Pilot" special quality, since so many of its other SAs and SQs depend on it.

How about:
*
Beholder Pilot (Ex):* A sentinel golem is normally inert, it only animates when a beholder or beholder-kin enters its helmet to operate it. A Sentinel golem can hold a single beholder up to one size smaller than the golem. While operating the golem the beholder loses the use of its magical powers, which are used to power the golem in a fashion similar to how a spelljammer helm powers a spelljamming ship. Powering the golem is as tiring as walking, so a beholder that operates a sentinel golem for longer than 8 hours must start making Fortitude saves every hour (DC 10, +2 per extra hour), take 1d6 nonlethal damage per failure (see Forced March under Overland Movement).



Shade said:


> Do we need Construction, or can we handwave it since only beholders should be building them?




According to the original text its only arcane who know the secrets of their construction, so I'd be fine with leaving it out.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2010)

Let's leave out the bit about the Spelljammer helm (since that isn't core), but the rest looks good!

Updated.

Organization: Solitary?

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: x

Suggestions on HD vs. size cutoff to become greater version?


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## Cleon (Mar 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's leave out the bit about the Spelljammer helm (since that isn't core), but the rest looks good!
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Organization: Solitary?




Well the original was "NO. APPEARING: 1" so that's the closest fit.

Although I do like the idea of adding "gang (2-4)" for when teams of beholder-kin are set to perform heavy labour or guard key sites using sentinels. Come to think of it, Watchers come in gangs of 1-4 and so do Iron Golems, so let's add a gang:

Organization: Solitary or gang (2-4)



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: x




CR12? They're in-between an Iron Golem and Stone Golem. They do have weaker spell-defenses, but the balance that with a nasty ranged attack.



Shade said:


> Advancement: x
> 
> Suggestions on HD vs. size cutoff to become greater version?




I7-23 HD (Huge); 24-48 (Gargantuan) ? Based on the Iron Golem?


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2010)

All good.  Updated.

Do we want them to become greater version immediately upon becoming Gargantuan, or at a higher HD threshold?


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2010)

Looks good, I think.  Let's have them become greater at Gargantuan.  That seems simplest.


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2010)

Updated.   Finished?


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## Cleon (Mar 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.   Finished?




I'd suggest applying the following tweaks to the Combat descriptions:

Beholder Pilot (Ex): A sentinel golem is normally inert, it only  animates when a beholder or beholder-kin enters its helmet to operate  it. A sentinel golem can hold a single beholder up to one size smaller  than itself. While operating the golem the beholder *pilot* loses the use of its  eye rays, which are used to power the golem. Powering the golem is as  tiring as walking, so a beholder that operates a sentinel golem for  longer than 8 hours must start making Fortitude saves every hour (DC 10,  +2 per extra hour), tak*ing* 1d6 nonlethal damage per failure (see Forced  March under Overland Movement).

Flight (Su): A beholder piloting a sentinel golem can render the golem's body supernaturally buoyant. This buoyancy  allows it to fly at a speed of 20 feet. This buoyancy also grants it a  permanent feather fall effect (as the spell) with personal range.

Tri-beams (Su): A beholder pilot can channel its eye rays through the  sentinel's trident to produce a magical tri-beam once per round as a  standard action. These three black beams of negative energy may be  targeted at a single creature within 180 feet. A successful hit deals  6d6+3 points of negative energy damage (a successful Will save halves  the damage). Additionally, a creature damaged by the tri-beam must  succeed on a Fortitude save or fall unconscious for 1d4 rounds. The save  DCs are equal to 10 + 1/2 sentinel's Hit Dice + Cha modifier of  beholder pilot (18 + Cha modifier of beholder pilot for a typical  sentinel).

I'd suggest boosting the Greater version's tri-beam attack damage to keep it in line with the trident damage. Adding "A Gargantuan sentinel golem's tri-beam attack does 9d6+3 damage." should be sufficient.

Do we want to include stats for a "Greater Sentinel Golem"?

*Golem, Sentinel, Greater*
Gargantuan Construct
Hit Dice: 24d10+60 (192 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 20 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 30 (-4 size, -1 Dex, +25 natural), touch 5, flat-footed 30
Base Attack/Grapple: +18/+46
Attack: Trident +22 melee (4d6+24) or tri-beam +13 ranged touch (9d6+3  negative energy) 
Full Attack: Trident +22/+17/+2 melee (4d6+24) or 3 tri-beams +13 ranged  touch (9d6+3 negative energy)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: Tri-beams
Special Qualities: All-around vision, construct traits, damage reduction  10/adamantine, darkvision 60 ft., flight, low-light vision, minor spell  invulnerability
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +8
Abilities: Str 43, Dex 9, Con —, Int —*, Wis 11*, Cha 1*
Challenge Rating: 15
Advancement: 25-48 (Gargantuan)


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## freyar (Mar 22, 2010)

Probably no need to include stats for the greater, since it's basically part of the advancement, but the other changes are fine.


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## Shade (Mar 22, 2010)

Agreed.  Updated.  

I think we're done with this one.


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## freyar (Mar 22, 2010)

Yup.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2010)

Psst. Change "arcane" to "mercane" in the flavor-text, since that what our favorite mercantile blue Lurch-impersonators are called in 3e. Also, the combat text says that tri-beams are fired as a standard action, whereas the Attack line has only the one on a standard, and all three as a full attack action. Which should it be?


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2010)

Nice catches!

"Tri-beam" should be a single attack, like "talons", so I'll fix the full attack line to reflect that.


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## Cleon (Mar 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> Nice catches!
> 
> "Tri-beam" should be a single attack, like "talons", so I'll fix the full attack line to reflect that.




The original could shoot three tri-beams simultaneously at the same target in 1 round, with separate attacks for each. Giving it a triple beam attack as a full-round attack was a holdover from that which we vacillated about changing.

I quite like the notion of giving it multiple ray attacks when full-attacking. Beholders can using their eye-rays, so why not a beholder-powered golem?


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## freyar (Mar 29, 2010)

I also think the full attack should have 3 tri-beams.


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## Shade (Mar 29, 2010)

Alrighty.  Fixed.

Here's the next one...

*Golem, Furnace*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Very (11-12)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENT: 6 (see below when spelljamming)
HIT DICE: 20 (90 hp)
THAC0: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: See below
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil (but see below)
SIZE: L (12’ tall)
MORALE: Fearless (19-20)
XP VALUE: 18,000

The furnace golem is a specialized form of iron golem that weighs 6,000 lbs. It is otherwise like its cousin in appearance. Furnace golems are created without weapons, but they can pick up and use any giant-size device that they can grasp.

Furnace golems are intelligent, speaking in slow, measured, booming voices that lack all inflection and tone. Their mouths open and close, having hinged jaws, and when they speak onlookers can see a fiery glow within their mouths. Furnace golems are warm to the touch but give off no odor. Their eyes give off a dull red glow, as if heated from within. Furnace golems move with ponderous gaits that can crush floors and shake whole buildings, except when they are on thick rock foundations.  

Furthermore, furnace golems are capable of spelljamming by consuming magical items, which they place in their mouths to be destroyed by the magical, molten material within them. For every 1,000 XP that a consumed magical item is worth, the golem can spelljam for one week (tonnage = l/10 ton; SR 2; MC B). Only one item is consumed at a time, avoiding any chance of an internal explosion as might occur in normal furnaces. Furnace golems do not leave the crystal spheres in which they are found; they explode should they enter the phlogiston (300’-radius fireball causing 36d6 points of damage to all within the radius). A human carried along by a furnace golem into wildspace has enough air for 2d6 + 7 days, thanks to the golem’s size.

Combat: Because of their intelligence, furnace golems are more versatile than iron golems in combat. A furnace golem may pick up a large, solid weapon (anything from a tree trunk to a giant’s axe) and swing it at an opponent, gaining normal initiative and causing triple the damage that a human would do with a similar (man-sized) weapon, plus the damage bonus for having storm giant strength (+12 points). A blow from its fist causes 2d6+12 points of damage. The furnace golem may pick up and hurl boulders or similar objects up to 300 yards, inflicting 3dlO points of damage per rock; however, it can catch rocks and similar hurled objects only 10% of the time.

A furnace golem can also grasp a man-size or smaller opponent and crush him in its mighty fingers. The opponent suffers 6d6 points of damage per round, and the golem need make no further attack rolls after the first round. The golem cannot crush an opponent and fight other foes in the same round, but it can hold an opponent tightly, preventing his escape, and either fight with its free hand or catch a second victim and crush them both at the same time. The golem releases crushed victims when they stop struggling and appear to be dead.

Because of its size and strength, a furnace golem may crush and batter furniture, walls, carts, fences, buildings, etc. A blow from this golem’s fist is as effective against structures as a ram with a + 1 bonus, as given on Table 52 in the 2nd Edition Dungeon Masters Guide, page 76. The golem is equally effective if it can grasp the object and exert force against it, tearing it apart or crushing it. In any situation, consider the golem’s mass and strength when lifting, throwing, resisting, or breaking objects. 

A furnace golem is immune to all weapons but those of +3 or greater enchantment. Magical cold attacks slow it for three rounds, and magical fire attacks repair 2 points of damage per hit die of damage the attack would have caused. All other spells are ineffective. Rust monster attacks affect a furnace golem, but complete destruction of the golem releases the magical molten iron within it, creating a 60-foot-diameter pool that causes 6dlO points of damage per round to all within it and lasts for ld4 +4 turns.

Habitat/Sodety:  These creatures are animated by powerful, intelligent spirits conjured up by their creators and bound to the material form of the golems. They are servitors of their creators, having no true society or habitat. The creator of a furnace golem may hold a conversation with it, learning what the golem has seen and heard recently (these being its only two senses). The golem can even offer minor speculations on events of which it is aware. Such conversation is not profound and lacks imagination, but the golem never lies and always tries to use logic. It may even converse with others who encounter it, though this does not hamper its attacks if such seem warranted. Furnace golems can carry out fairly complex instructions as could normal, willing human servants of good intelligence. They never rebel against their masters.

Ecology: Furnace golems play no part in any living ecology. Furnace golems neither eat nor sleep.

Originally appeared in Trading Cards Factory Set (1993).


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## freyar (Mar 29, 2010)

Huh, they seem almost LN.  And, other than the spelljamming, pretty straightforward.

First question: stick to Large like 20HD iron golems or bump to Huge (like some of the flavor hints)?


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2010)

Let's start 'em at Large, since the size line places them exactly the same height as an iron golem.

It sounds like they should get improved grab, constrict, rock throwing/rock catching, weapon use (and maybe improvised weapons), and death throes.


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2010)

Sounds right, and let's include improvised weapons, too.

It only has a 2d6 slam, which is less than the 2d10 of the 3e iron golem.  I'm not sure if that's hinting about the Str or not.  Do we know what damage 2e iron golems did?


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2010)

4d10.


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2010)

Ok, so that suggests this thing is a lot weaker, even though the text seems to imply it's just as strong.  I'm inclined to bump to 2d10 like the iron golem.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2010)

That works for me.   I"m surprised these things don't deal some sort of fire damage, considering their name...


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## Cleon (Mar 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's start 'em at Large, since the size line  places them exactly the same height as an iron golem.
> 
> It sounds like they should get improved grab, constrict, rock  throwing/rock catching, weapon use (and maybe improvised weapons), and  death throes.




That all makes sense.



freyar said:


> Ok, so that suggests this thing is a lot weaker, even though the text seems to imply it's just as strong.  I'm inclined to bump to 2d10 like the iron golem.  What do you think?




I'd rather keep it 2d6.

Imagine these things are craft golems with finely articulated gauntlets for hands instead of solid iron mace-fists like a regular iron golem. If we give them 2d10 slams they'd have less reason to wield weapons like the description implies.

Speaking of weapons, shall we give them the ability to wield oversized (Huge) weapons or regular (Large) weapons?

It talks about them wielding tree trunks with Storm Giant strength, so letting them use Huge weapons may be appropriate.

What do you fancy doing about the Spelljamming? Maybe give them _overland flight _as a Su powered by "burning" a magic item. That mouth full of destructive "magical, molten material"makes me wonder whether they could have a fiery Swallow Whole attack against little enough targets (Tiny? Small?)... that would explain the "furnace golem" name!


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## freyar (Mar 31, 2010)

Your reasoning for 2d6 slam makes sense, but it just seems odd considering that they can constrict.  

I can support Huge weapons, but I'm not quite getting Swallow Whole, since I think we'd want to restrict to Tiny (which makes it almost pointless).

Overland flight for spelljamming is a nice simplification.

I could see adding a little fire damage somewhere.


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## Cleon (Apr 4, 2010)

freyar said:


> Your reasoning for 2d6 slam makes sense, but it just seems odd considering that they can constrict.
> 
> I can support Huge weapons, but I'm not quite getting Swallow Whole, since I think we'd want to restrict to Tiny (which makes it almost pointless).
> 
> ...




I wasn't that serious about the swallow-whole-and-burning thing, it's not like this Furnace Golem is taking the "Moloch approach".

So shall we include a Huge warhammer in the attack line?

As for the Flight & Consume Magic ability, here's a first stab at it. I'm not sure whether the _overland flight_ should operate at the golem's HD, the consumed magic item's CL, or both:

*Consume Magic Item (Su):* A furnace golem can place a single magic item in its mouth and reduce it to magical, molten material. This releases the magic item's XP to be used by the golem's Enchanted Flight spell-like ability (see below). A furnace golem can only consume one magic item at a time, it can spit out a partially consumed magic item as a standard action.

Some furnace golems have alternative or additional magical powers they can power by consuming a magic item.

*Enchanted Flight (Sp):* A furnace golem using consume magic item (see above) can cast the spell _overland flight_ on itself at the cost of Y XP from the magic item it is consuming. The effective caster level equals the magic item's CL or the golem's Hit Dice, whichever is higher.


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## freyar (Apr 5, 2010)

I'm not sure I like the XP bookkeeping, seems a bit fiddly to track.  How about an hour of flight per caster level or something?


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2010)

Agreed.  XP bookkeeping is way too fiddly for a straight-up monster.  I like the caster level of the item approach.

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Apr 6, 2010)

How about this?  I'm not sure about the full round part or if there should be a way to "rescue" an item if we keep that line.  Note a couple of question marks; I think the save makes the most sense as Con-based, but I don't know if that's a good enough DC.  Maybe it is after all.

Enchanted Flight (Su?): A furnace golem may consume a magic item by placing the item in its mouth as a move-equivalent action, destroying the item if it fails a DC X Fort? save.  Consuming the item takes one full round, although the furnace golem can still act as usual.  Once the item is completely destroyed, the release of magical energy grants the furnace golem magical flight as the spell overland flight at the caster level of the magic item.

Items that succeed at their save are ejected from the golem's mouth, landing in a random square adjacent to the golem.  This ability cannot destroy magical artifacts.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2010)

Reworking a bit...

Consumptive Flight (Su): As a move-equivalent action that (does/does not) provoke attacks of opportunity, a furnace golem may place an unattended magic item in its mouth.  Consuming the item takes one full round, although the furnace golem can still act as usual.  The item must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be destroyed.  Items that succeed at their save are ejected from the golem's mouth, landing in a random square adjacent to the golem. This ability cannot destroy magical artifacts. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Once the item is completely destroyed, the release of magical energy grants the furnace golem magical flight as the spell overland flight at the caster level of the magic item.


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## Cleon (Apr 6, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'm not sure I like the XP bookkeeping, seems a bit fiddly to track.  How about an hour of flight per caster level or something?




Problem with that is it means a CL9 _scroll of erase _(225gp) or _wand of magic missile_ (3750 gp) would power the golem as long as CL9 _boots of teleportation_ (49,000 gp).

We really need the duration to vary with the gp or xp value of the magic item.

1 hour per CL also seems a bit short. A fully charged _staff of overland flight_ would cost 33,400 gp - twice its creation cost of 16,875 gold pieces (375*9*5) - and allow for 50 uses of the spell at CL 9, for 450 hours in total - or 18 3/4 days straight!

Maybe make it 1 hour per 100 gold pieces of magic item value?


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2010)

Cleon said:


> We really need the duration to vary with the gp or xp value of the magic item.




Why, exactly?  It's not an incredibly powerful ability.  The destruction of the magic item is far worse than the fact that the golem can fly.

If it were a PC racial ability, I could see a problem.  But as an ability of a construct (even one PCs could conceivably create), I don't see it as problematic.  It'll probably still cost more than a flying carpet or other item that grants flight.


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## Cleon (Apr 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> Why, exactly?  It's not an incredibly powerful ability.  The destruction of the magic item is far worse than the fact that the golem can fly.
> 
> If it were a PC racial ability, I could see a problem.  But as an ability of a construct (even one PCs could conceivably create), I don't see it as problematic.  It'll probably still cost more than a flying carpet or other item that grants flight.




It just sits ill with me making its duration so disconnected to the expended value.

And it is potentially a lot cheaper if the golem can consume a 1st level spell scroll with a CL of 9th to get 9 hours of flight. That's 25gp per hour, while a scroll of _overland flight_ costs 125 gp per hour (since the spell is duration = CL). 

Why, if it starts eating cantrip-level items it could use _overland flight_ at 12.5 gp per hour under a "CL" scheme.

An hour's flight per 100gp value seems a reasonable compromise to me.


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## freyar (Apr 8, 2010)

gp value seems like the worst option from a game-world perspective if you ask me (but maybe you aren't! ).  I think what we want is something that represents magical power in game-world terms, since this ability shouldn't care about the economic value of a sword vs scroll or whatever.  That's either going to be XP to create or caster level.  I could see some set value of XP for an hour of flight, but that just seems fiddly (and gp seems fiddly, too), which is why I suggested CL.  In any case, I also think Shade's right that the value-to-time issue isn't a big deal from a gamist perspective either: the item will be destroyed and then the golem is likely to be destroyed before getting to fly very far anyway!


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## Shade (Apr 8, 2010)

Indeed.  It looks like this is another one worthy of a Cleon Special Edition (TM).  

Moving on...



> Because of its size and strength, a furnace golem may crush and batter furniture, walls, carts, fences, buildings, etc. A blow from this golem’s fist is as effective against structures as a ram with a + 1 bonus, as given on Table 52 in the 2nd Edition Dungeon Masters Guide, page 76. The golem is equally effective if it can grasp the object and exert force against it, tearing it apart or crushing it. In any situation, consider the golem’s mass and strength when lifting, throwing, resisting, or breaking objects.




Allow it to bypass the first few points of hardness?  Or perhaps deal double damage against objects (like a treant)?



> The creator of a furnace golem may hold a conversation with it, learning what the golem has seen and heard recently (these being its only two senses). The golem can even offer minor speculations on events of which it is aware. Such conversation is not profound and lacks imagination, but the golem never lies and always tries to use logic. It may even converse with others who encounter it, though this does not hamper its attacks if such seem warranted. Furnace golems can carry out fairly complex instructions as could normal, willing human servants of good intelligence. They never rebel against their masters.




Skills: 69
Max out Listen and Spot?   Climb and/or Sense Motive for the remainder?

Feats: 7
Power Attack seems a no-brainer.  Improved Sunder seems a good fit, per the "crush and batter" above.


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## freyar (Apr 8, 2010)

I just get a double damage vibe from that.

Those 4 skills with Climb 12, Sense Motive 11 sound ok.

Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Improved Bull Rush, Awesome Blow, Cleave, Great Cleave, ?


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## Cleon (Apr 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Allow it to bypass the first few points of hardness?  Or perhaps deal double damage against objects (like a treant)?




I like the Treant solution.



Shade said:


> Skills: 69
> Max out Listen and Spot?   Climb and/or Sense Motive for the remainder?




Rather than Sense Motive I'd put the excess points in Craft (armorsmith) and/or Craft (weaponsmith) since it's supposed to work in the Forge.



freyar said:


> Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Improved Bull Rush, Awesome Blow, Cleave,  Great Cleave, ?




That looks OK to me. Maybe Stand Still for the remaining feat?


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## freyar (Apr 12, 2010)

I can go with the Craft skills, sure.

Stand Still is always good (and underused!).


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2010)

Updated.

CR 15?  They are like iron golems *extreme*!  

Construction?


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## freyar (Apr 12, 2010)

CR 15 works for me!

Take iron golem construction, boost the cost a bit, and swap cloudkill for overland flight and maybe heat metal?


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2010)

How's this?

A furnace golem’s body is sculpted from 5,000 pounds of pure iron, smelted with rare tinctures and admixtures costing at least 15,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 20 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC 20 Craft (weaponsmithing) check.

CL 16th; Craft Construct, geas/quest, heat metal, limited wish, overland flight, caster must be at least 16th level; Price 175,000 gp; Cost 95,000 gp + 6,400 XP.


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## freyar (Apr 12, 2010)

I like!


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## Cleon (Apr 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> CR 15 works for me!
> 
> Take iron golem construction, boost the cost a bit, and swap cloudkill  for overland flight and maybe heat metal?




Challenge Rating 15 seems right.



Shade said:


> How's this?
> 
> A furnace golem’s body is sculpted from 5,000 pounds of pure iron, smelted with rare tinctures and admixtures costing at least 15,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 20 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC 20 Craft (weaponsmithing) check.
> 
> CL 16th; Craft Construct, geas/quest, heat metal, limited wish, overland flight, caster must be at least 16th level; Price 175,000 gp; Cost 95,000 gp + 6,400 XP.




Looks a good beginning.

Since these are two CRs nastier and sapient I fancy increasing the CL to 18th. If we do that we might as well swap _limited wish_ for a full _wish_. i.e.:

CL 18th; Craft Construct, geas/quest, heat metal, wish, overland  flight, caster must be at least 18th level; Price 175,000 gp; Cost  95,000 gp + 6,400 XP.

Oh, and we've forgotten to include their thrown rocks in the attack line. 2d6 damage like a Large giant's rock throwing?

*Attack:* Huge warhammer +25 melee (3d6+16/x3) or slam +25 melee (2d6+11) or rock +14 ranged (2d6+11)


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## freyar (Apr 12, 2010)

Rock damage sounds right.  Increased CL doesn't make much difference to me.


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2010)

Rock damage looks good.

No need to increase CL, as the other CR 15 golems (drakestone, sickstone, and Sardorian) are all CL 16th.

Updated.

Finished?


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## freyar (Apr 13, 2010)

Consumptive Flight appears to be missing, but otherwise it looks good.


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2010)

Oops!  

Updated.


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## Cleon (Apr 13, 2010)

Shade said:


> Rock damage looks good.
> 
> No need to increase CL, as the other CR 15 golems (drakestone, sickstone, and Sardorian) are all CL 16th.
> 
> ...




The stats look great, but aren't we missing something?

We've got "A furnace golem speaks in a slow, measured, booming voice that lacks  inflection and tone." but no mention of what languages they speak.

How about:

Furnace golem are created with the ability to speak two languages known to its creator. A furnace golem speaks in a slow, measured, booming voice that lacks  inflection and tone. Their hinged jaws move when the speak, revealing  flickering flames within.


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2010)

Indeed!  Fixed.


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2010)

All good now, I guess!


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## Cleon (Apr 14, 2010)

freyar said:


> All good now, I guess!




Yup, it's looking mighty fine.

(Well except that consumptive flight should have an XP based duration. )

What's up next?


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2010)

Would you be happier if we excluded potions and scrolls?


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2010)

This is gonna be a tough one...

*Transient Golem*

"You... must not count on your reality as you feel it today, since, like that of yesterday, it may prove an illusion for you tomorrow." -Luigi Pirandello

*Biography*
Often there are stories of golems that curse life and those who thrust it upon them. This sad creature of mist simply craves to live at all, as something more than semi-sentient air and water. Only in corporeal form can it feel physical sensations and human emotions. Only in corporeal form can it reason and remember. Sadly, the transient golem acquires substance only by stealing life from others, and the too, too brief hours of its conscious existence fade away if it does not steal again and again and again.
This unusual golem may exist as a single, unique creature, or it can become a kind of RAVENLOFT monster, depending upon your interests and on the adventurers' handling of the story outlined below.

*Appearance*
In its natural form, the transient golem is virtually indistinguishable from mundane fog as well as the notorious Mists of Ravenloft. People and creatures with sensitive noses (your call!) sometimes detect a slight tang of hot copper in the air when they inhale the monster (give them 2 in 6 chance, with a +1 bonus for actively sniffing). But even the scent may fade as the creature instinctively blends with the surrounding mist, drawing thin or coalescing to match the thickness and visual texture of its cover.

When empowered by the essence of any living creature, the transient golem takes on that creature's form and appearance. Whether a wolf, a hero, or some other living thing is drained, the golem becomes a perfect twin. Even clothing, armor, and weapons are duplicated, although they are merely solidified mist and possess little or none of the physical or magical qualities of the original items. The golem can dissolve at will, but it rarely does. Instead it waits until it has exhausted the energy drained from its host, and it has no choice. The sight of this transformation requires a horror check: The creature diffuses from the outside in. First, the outer layer of skin becomes translucent and swirls away, then the inner layers of skin dissolve, followed by the muscles, the skeleton, and finally the internal organs. This six-second process is excruciating to the golem, and the agony is horribly apparent to those who look upon it.

*Transient Golem*

Neutral
Armor Class: 10
Movement: 3
Level/Hit Dice: Nil
Hit Points: Nil
THAC0: Nil
Morale: 20
No. of Attacks: 1
Damage/Attack: 1d10 x 10% of victim's hp
Special Attacks: Infusion; system shock; sustain current form
Special Defenses: Impossible to attack in natural form; Mist summoning
Special Vulnerabilities: Abjuration/protection magic; turned as "special" zeitgeber
Magic Resistance: 100% (except against abjuration/protection magic)

Str: Varies*
Dex: Varies*
Con: Varies*
Int: Varies*
Wis: Varies*
Cha: Varies*
XP: 650

*Varies with form taken.

The statistics above describe the golem in its natural state. In this vaporous form, it shares several qualities of the geist (see MONSTROUS COMPENDIUM Appendix III: Creatures of Darkness): No form of attack, physical or magical, can harm the golem, because its essential spark of life resides in a phylactery-like crystal, lost in the Mists. Its Armor Class is 10 for the purpose of striking at it, but no harm results. Also like the geist, the transient golem has no level or Hit Dice, hit points, or THAC0 while in natural form.
In physical form, the golem retains its Armor Class of 10, but it is now vulnerable to all forms of attack. Moreover, the transient golem functions as a a-level character unless its special mimic ability manifests. (See the "Extraordinary Abilities" section, below.)

*Infusion:* The golem's parasitic drain of a living host is called infusion. Quick and insidious, it requires no assault, and while detrimental to the host, it is not overtly hostile. Like the odem (also see the MC Appendix III), a transient golem can simply enter any orifice of a living creature that is accessible to air. The action requires a single round, and the creature automatically wins initiative. Once the infusion has begun, protective magic is too late; only expulsion magic cast in the same round as the entry can prevent the ensuing drain of energy.

In round two, the transient golem absorbs 1d10x10% of the host's current hit points. It always drains a minimum of 5 hp, so the victim's hit points may drop below 0. (This mechanic works best if 0 hit points is not considered the point of death.) The infusion often kills 0-level creatures and the weak, but the trauma also has a severe effect upon tougher hosts who lose half their hit points or more. They must make a successful system shock roll or lose 1 point from each ability score for 1d4-1 days, due to the immense and sudden strain of the theft. In any event, the victim at least blacks out for 1d4+1 rounds,following the attack.

In round three, the transient golem flees the host's body and moves off to safety. The flight is obvious, for the golem's color has changed to crimson. In a single round, it can assume the physical form of the host it has drained, possessing the hit points it took. The creature burns these points like fuel at the rate of 1 per hour. As described above, when the golem exhausts its supply of hit points, or if it loses those points to sustained damage, it reverts to its mist form until it can find another host. Note that the crimson mist can be physically attacked and damaged just like the solid form it takes.

*Sustain Current Form:* Once the transient golem has assumed a physical form, it can maintain that form indefinitely by absorbing more hit points before its current supply is exhausted. It can render itself partly insubstantial and reach into a living creature to steal more energy, yet keep the physical form it has already assumed. The theft is so swift and subtle that the golem can do this in a crowd without anyone noticing, including the victim (who unexpectedly suffers a seizure and passes out a moment or two later).

*Special Defenses:* As mentioned, the transient golem is invulnerable to attack, physical or magical, while in its natural state. Furthermore, the creature cannot be detected except by a detect magic spell, which reveals the presence of something (conjuration/summoning magic) in the air.
In its adopted physical form, the transient golem can leave the Mists at will, but it can silently call to them and make them rise thickly within 1d4 rounds -- or within just one round if any form of fog already exists. Once the Mists have risen, the golem can step into them and become completely and instantly obscured; treat the creature as though it were affected by an invisibility spell. This is an effective escape mechanism. 

*Special Vulnerabilities:* Any spell designed to expel creatures -- such as banishment, dismissal, or dispel evil -- will drive off the mist form. Spells designed to prevent intrusion -- such as avoidance, globe of invulnerability, protection from evil, repulsion, and even sanctuary -- are effective deterrents to the golem's infusion ability. You may wish to allow other means undertaken by adventurers to repel the transient golem, especially if the solutions are clever or reasonable.

Like a mist horror, the transient golem can be turned by a 9th level (or greater) priest who presents a holy symbol. The golem is considered "special" on the Turning Undead table.

*Construction*
The transient golem is a creature of mist. But it also has an essential physical component that serves as the actual construct, the Created. (Without it, this unusual monster could not be classified as a golem.) The true physical vessel of the transient golem is a crystal ball about the size of a man's fist. It lies in the Mists, and the souls of thirteen mist horrors have been trapped within the crystal, forming the golem's critical "spark of life." Though the reason is unclear, this crystal ball can never leave or be taken from the Mists of Ravenloft. (Perhaps the crystal innately attracts them.) Because the Mists seem to exist outside the boundaries of normal space, the transient golem can manifest anywhere they do. Provided the golem is within the Mists, it can summon the crystal to its feet, though it rarely does so. Of course, when it adopts a physical form, the golem can leave the Mists at will, yet they always float somewhere within 100 yards of the creature. The crystal lies within that veil, and spellcasters can use locate object to find it, provided they know what they're seeking.

*Mental Abilities:* When the transient golem assumes a physical form, the creature does not normally retain any of the host's memories or abilities, nor does it possess any consciousness of the mist horrors trapped in its crystal ball. The golem begins physical life much like a complete amnesiac; its memories go no further back than the very moment it took shape. The golem picks up the first language or languages it hears almost instantly, and it learns extremely quickly. It can understand others within a few rounds, it can speak its first halting sentence after listening to others talk for about an hour, and it can speak fluently within a day. At this rate of acquisition and retention, the transient golem can blend into most societies within a week. Extraordinary Abilities: Each time the transient golem assumes a new shape, it has a 10% chance of adopting the abilities of that creature. Armor class, THAC0, spells, proficiencies, nonweapon proficiencies, and all other salient abilities function as innate powers that work identically to those of the host. You can adjust the boundaries of the golem's acquired abilities to suit the balance and tone of your campaign.

*Zeitgeber:* This creature has a peculiar Achilles' heal: It cannot resist fresh blood. In its natural state, the transient golem is most attracted to any character who happens to be bleeding. In physical form, the creature cannot resist touching any open wound it sees. Interestingly, the bleeding host experiences nothing like an infusion. There no pain whatsoever, and the contact completely closes the wound. It can even save a character's life because the golem's touch is tantamount to binding wounds, even upon a character who has suffered massive damage. Witnesses have called the results a miracle. If the golem has an appropriate form, they often believe it has the powers of a paladin. The truth is not so rosy. While the wound is closed, no hit points have been restored. Rather, the transient golem has absorbed the character's lost hit points, represented by the flowing blood. You can simply transfer all lost hit points to the golem or roll percentiles to determine how many points from the injury at hand would actually be present in the flowing blood. If the creature is in mist form, it will assume the wounded character's appearance (after moving to a safe place, away from retribution). If it already has a physical form, the golem can use the stolen hit points to sustain its present appearance.

*Background*
The creator of this golem remains a mystery. (The identity has been left uncertain so you can choose someone who suits your campaign.) Scholars speculate that the creator served the likes of Azalin, Strahd von Zarovich, or some other domain lord who is obsessed with escape from Ravenloft. One thing is sure: Whoever created this being was a powerful mage. The wizard was probably seeking a way to navigate the Mists by constructing a golem made of their very fabric -- a golem with which he or she could maintain a telepathic link.

This creator prepared a crystal ball with a trap the soul spell, then found his way into the Mists (probably with the aid of the Vistani) and wandered there until encountering a mist horror, whereupon he triggered the spell and ensnared the creature. He repeated this process until he had entrapped thirteen mist horrors, then returned to his laboratory. There he cast many enchantment, illusion, and necromantic spells over the crystal, binding the mist horrors' life forces to the glass and transforming them into a single entity. The golem's first self-directed act was to summon the Mists and then infuse with its creator, absorbing his living essence (or unliving essence, as the case may be) and taking physical form.

The adventure to follow assumes a certain history for this golem. At first, the creature was grateful for its new life, for it loved the physical and emotional sensations that flowed through it. But the golem passed through all five stages of mental development very rapidly: feeling dependence, confusion, betrayal, contempt, and finally hatred toward its creator. The wizard prevented the golem from feeding until the very last second when he was displeased (perhaps he was a sadist), and the agony of partial diffusion quickly taught the golem that its creator was neither benevolent nor beloved. The creature called upon the Mists to steal away the crystal, and to this day the object is well hidden in their embrace. Having gained control of its own phylactery, the golem repeatedly drained the wizard until he died.

*Psychology*
In mist form, the golem has only one instinct: to locate a host and absorb life energy so it can attain real life. There is no evil intent in the assimilation of another's life energy, so a paladin does not detect the creature's approach, and spells that involve good and evil (other than abjuration and protection magic) have no effect upon the transient golem.

Once the creature assumes a physical form, its next instinct is self-preservation, and it will take the most direct course of action available to it to maintain its new shape. The monster also begins to accumulate experience and memories immediately, and it quickly develops sophisticated methods to sustain itself without revealing its true nature. For example, the transient golem might gain human form and then make its way to another domain, where it could set up shop as a butcher. There it could feed subtly and indefinitely on the life energy of slaughtered animals without anyone being the wiser, and it could even establish itself as a respected citizen. Such a creature would have something of a dual personality, perhaps reaching a point where it didn't even recognize what it was doing as it absorbed life energy to sustain itself -- the golem would come to believe it is exactly what it appears to be.

*Combat*
Using its infusion ability, the golem approaches an unprotected host almost undetectably and enters the body. The host can feel the unwholesome mist filling his lungs, and he (or a companion) can expel the creature provided an appropriate abjuration spell is cast in that same round. Otherwise, the host is seized with searing pain throughout his or her entire body, resulting in the loss of 1d10x10% of current hit points (minimum of 5 hp) and a blackout of 1d4+1 rounds. Those who lose 50% or more of their hit points must make a successful system shock roll or lose 1 point from each of their Ability Scores for 1d4-1 days.

Characters who witness the seizure, particularly if the transient golem took them unaware, are subject to fear checks at the sight of a friend suddenly writhing in agony and then passing out. Similarly, they are subject to horror checks when they see blood-red smoke pour out of the body after the host passes out.

Once in solid form, the golem avoids combat, which certainly is not its forte. Until it acquires enough knowledge and memory to blend into its surroundings, it will employ brutal, ruthless tactics to sustain itself. Thereafter, it sustains itself as subtly as possible, avoiding any circumstance that might expose its true identity. Nevertheless, the golem's hunger is cold, and given the opportunity it will take as much life as it can, even if its actions result in death.

As its identity develops, the transient golem's tactics become more refined. It soon discovers regular and reliable sources of energy within the means of its species. In other words, in cat form, the transient golem might scratch a few humans for their blood at first, but it would eventually learn to hunt mice for its energy (which is a way to sustain itself without getting kicked). A human transient golem might initially attack young, weak women and children in a back alley, but eventually might become a barber trained in the art of bloodletting for health -- it's less likely to draw a vengeful crowd.
Whatever the golem's form may be, its zeitgeber remains in effect. The mere sight of exposed blood overwhelmingly commands the creature to touch and absorb.

Originally appeared in Children of the Night: The Created (1999).


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2010)

Tomb-tainted construct doppelgangers?  Yeah, that's weird.  And shapechanger with lots of special abilities!  But, to be honest, I think the hardest part will be agreeing what to do, not figuring out mechanics.


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2010)

Indeed.  Cleon's going to want a bunch of new abilities, I'm going to try to shoehorn as much as possible into existing abilities, and you'll fall somewhere in between.


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## Cleon (Apr 17, 2010)

freyar said:


> Tomb-tainted construct doppelgangers?  Yeah,  that's weird.  And shapechanger with lots of special abilities!  But, to  be honest, I think the hardest part will be agreeing what to do, not  figuring out mechanics.




Tomb-tainted _incorporeal_ construct _vampire_ doppelgangers if you please!



Shade said:


> Indeed.  Cleon's going to want a bunch of new abilities, I'm going to try to shoehorn as much as possible into existing abilities, and you'll fall somewhere in between.




I resent resemble that remark!

Actually I was thinking that, weird as these things are, most of their abilities can be represented by off-the-shelf components.

Incorporeality (when in its natural state)
Alternate Form / Shapechange (into infused victim)
Blood Drain (Con or hit points? - I'd make it Con, since it appears to gain a Con score and become a 'Living Construct' when it copies a host's form, going by the original write-up.)

It's only their "Infusion" attack and "Alternate Form" that needs writing up, really [EDIT: plus some work on the Blood Drain]. Although we may have some argument over those!

EDIT: Here's some more thoughts.

Their *Blood Drain *looks like it operates via _*incorporeal touch*_, even if the golem is using its *Alternate Form*: "It can render itself partly insubstantial and reach into a living  creature to steal more energy, yet keep the physical form it has already  assumed. The theft is so swift and subtle that the golem can do this in  a crowd without anyone noticing, including the victim (who unexpectedly  suffers a seizure and passes out a moment or two later)."

We might need to build some kind of "subtle strike" function into its Blood Drain to represent the last sentence.

They have a standard golem's *Immunity to Magic*, which is overcome by any spell of the Abjuration type.

The *crystal ball* containing their "life spark" could be treated like a lich's Phylactery.

Oh, and finally the original text says its "Mimic Shape" *Alternate Form* / Shapechange" ability includes a 10% chance of the rapid adoptation of the memories and abilities (and maybe skills?) of the host, plus the ability to copy the first language it hears. The text also says "the transient golem functions as a a-level character unless its special  mimic ability manifests." - is that "a-level" supposed to be "0-level"?

What shall we do about that? Have it copy the memories, skill ranks and Extraordinary racial and class abilities of the host? Rather than make it 10% shall we require a saving throw by the host (Will?) to resist its memories being copied? The "copy the first language it hears" is pretty straightforward.


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## freyar (Apr 17, 2010)

Huh, I'd thought gaseous, although I'll give you incorporeal due to the "impossible to attack" special defense.

I'm not sure the blood drain is precisely blood drain; in the original text, it doesn't actually do any additional damage.  I agree that it's kind of like incorporeal touch.  It's not entirely clear to me why it needs to keep "draining" hp -- should we insitute some kind of timer on staying corporeal?

I'd say drop the 10% entirely and just let it copy things.


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## Cleon (Apr 18, 2010)

freyar said:


> Huh, I'd thought gaseous, although I'll give you incorporeal due to the "impossible to attack" special defense.




Okay, so shall we make them Medium Construct (Incorporeal) with 3 Hit Dice then?



freyar said:


> I'm not sure the blood drain is precisely blood drain; in the original text, it doesn't actually do any additional damage.  I agree that it's kind of like incorporeal touch.  It's not entirely clear to me why it needs to keep "draining" hp -- should we insitute some kind of timer on staying corporeal?




In AD&D blood drain usually affects hit points, not Con like it does in 3E.

It needed to keep draining blood because it loses a hit point for every hour it stays in a mimicked shape, and once it reaches zero it dissolves back into mist.

Interpreting that into 3E I would prefer if it gains "temporary Con" through blood-draining for a number of reasons.


Under standard rules it would just be destroyed if it goes down to 0 hit points, and I'd prefer it to stay that way.
It drains blood to assume a pseudo-living form in which it can enjoy mortal sensations. I think having it drain Con via blood-drain to make it a "Living Construct" with a Constitution score is a neat way of representing that.



freyar said:


> I'd say drop the 10% entirely and just let it copy things.




Yes, I agree that would be simpler.

Have its Mimic Shape work like standard alternate form with the addition that it can copy class-based Extraordinary abilities as well as racial Extraordinary abilities?

What about copying skills and feats?


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## freyar (Apr 18, 2010)

3HD Medium Construct (Incorporeal) is good.

I agree to switch to Con, but my point is that the original ability doesn't hurt the victim (ok, infusion does, but not what we're calling blood drain).  So I'm not sure I like the idea of doing Con damage/drain.  The living construct idea is nice.

Wouldn't that just be Change Shape rather than Alternate Form, if it takes Ex abilities (Change Shape doesn't explicitly restrict from taking on class-based Ex abilities).


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## Cleon (Apr 19, 2010)

freyar said:


> 3HD Medium Construct (Incorporeal) is good.
> 
> I agree to switch to Con, but my point is that the original ability doesn't hurt the victim (ok, infusion does, but not what we're calling blood drain).  So I'm not sure I like the idea of doing Con damage/drain.  The living construct idea is nice.




Well I'll agree it doesn't hurt, but that could just be because its anaesthetised. It keeps talking about the "stolen hit points" it acquires with its touch attack. As written, it implies it steals the HPs the victim has already lost from their wound but I don't think that makes much sense.

Should we give the victim some kind of save to notice they're feeling weaker? Either a difficult Will save or some kind of skill check. Either way it'll probably need a hefty racial bonus. I'd prefer a skill check.

So, something like:*Blood Drain (Su):* A transient golem using Mimic Shape (see below) can make an incorporeal touch attack against any creature with an unhealed wound. It can also Blood Drain with any natural attacks it gains from its mimicked shape. The wound instantly closes and stops bleeding (which stops any continuing damage from a _wounding_ weapon or the like), but the creature takes 1 point of Constitution damage and the golem's Con increases by 1 (up to the Constitution of the creature it mimicked). This touch is completely painless, and it requires a [DC X Spot or Autohypnosis?] check for the victim to notice the loss. Another character who closely examines the victim can notice their anemia with a DC X Heal check.​DC equal to the golem's HD+Cha+15? It should be hard to detect and, since it's a skill check rather than a save, I'd rather it scale to HD rather than half HD.



freyar said:


> Wouldn't that just be Change Shape rather than Alternate Form, if it takes Ex abilities (Change Shape doesn't explicitly restrict from taking on class-based Ex abilities).




Erm, the *Change Self* description appears to disagree with you:



> The creature loses the natural weapons and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form _*not derived from class levels  *_(such as the barbarian's rage class feature).



How's this for an outline of Mimic Shape:

*Mimic Shape (Su):* A transient golem that successfully uses its infusion attack can assume a solid form that copies its victim's shape. The transformation is a full-round action during which the golem is both helpless and vulnerable to physical attacks, so it usually flees to a secluded spot before using Mimic Shape. The transient golem must use Mimic Shape within an hour of making an Infusion attack.

Mimic Shape functions like the Change Shape special ability with the following additions.


The transient golem loses its Incorporeal subtype as it becomes solid pseudoflesh.
The transient golem gains a Constitution equal to the Con damage it inflicted with its infusion attack and becomes a living construct, so is vulnerable to fatigue, exhaustion and death from massive damage. It applies its Con modifier to its hit point score and heals wounds as if it were a living creature (including being affected by _cure _and _inflict _wound spells).
The transient golem gains the physical ability scores of the creature it mimicked. Its Constitution score may start out lower than the mimicked creature but can be increased using its Blood Drain special attack (see above) until it matches the mimicked creature.
The transient golem gains any Extraordinary class-based abilities of the mimicked creature as well as the Extraordinary racial abilities normally acquired with Change Shape.
The transient golem gains the skills, feats *and alignment?* of the mimicked creature. Its rank in a mimicked skill can not exceed the golem's Hit Dice.
The transient golem gains most of the memories of the mimicked creature. If it fails a DC X Will save it even believes it is the creature it is mimicking.
A transient golem loses 1 point of Constitution for every day it maintains a mimicked shape. It can regain this Con using Blood Drain. Should its Constitution ever drop to zero the golem evaporates back into its Incorporeal form and loses all the changes gained by Mimic Shape.
What do you think?


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## freyar (Apr 19, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Well I'll agree it doesn't hurt, but that could just be because its anaesthetised. It keeps talking about the "stolen hit points" it acquires with its touch attack. As written, it implies it steals the HPs the victim has already lost from their wound but I don't think that makes much sense.



This is why I keep saying that it doesn't damage the victim.  But I can go along with a little Con damage, I guess.



> Should we give the victim some kind of save to notice they're feeling weaker? Either a difficult Will save or some kind of skill check. Either way it'll probably need a hefty racial bonus. I'd prefer a skill check.
> 
> So, something like:*Blood Drain (Su):* A transient golem using Mimic Shape (see below) can make an incorporeal touch attack against any creature with an unhealed wound. It can also Blood Drain with any natural attacks it gains from its mimicked shape. The wound instantly closes and stops bleeding (which stops any continuing damage from a _wounding_ weapon or the like), but the creature takes 1 point of Constitution damage and the golem's Con increases by 1 (up to the Constitution of the creature it mimicked). This touch is completely painless, and it requires a [DC X Spot or Autohypnosis?] check for the victim to notice the loss. Another character who closely examines the victim can notice their anemia with a DC X Heal check.​DC equal to the golem's HD+Cha+15? It should be hard to detect and, since it's a skill check rather than a save, I'd rather it scale to HD rather than half HD.



I can't decide if I'd rather have a flat DC for a skill check.  Hmm.



> Erm, the *Change Self* description appears to disagree with you:



Actually, the SRD change shape says "The creature gains the natural weapons, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form."  I don't see where it says it does not gain the class-based extraordinary special attacks.  That said, we probably do want it to gain the physical abilities of the new shape, which is like alternate form instead.



> How's this for an outline of Mimic Shape:
> 
> *Mimic Shape (Su):* A transient golem that successfully uses its infusion attack can assume a solid form that copies its victim's shape. The transformation is a full-round action during which the golem is both helpless and vulnerable to physical attacks, so it usually flees to a secluded spot before using Mimic Shape. The transient golem must use Mimic Shape within an hour of making an Infusion attack.
> 
> ...




It seems quite long.  And I think we need to work out the infusion bit first before we finish this.

I dunno, I'd still like to see if we can get a bit closer to either alternate form or change shape.


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## Shade (Apr 19, 2010)

Wow.

OK, I'm really not comfortable with adding yet another ability to the alternate form/change shape/polymorph/shapechange family of abilities.  Let's try to pick one of those, and just note the necessary exceptions in other abilities where needed.

It's attack almost reminds me of a belker's smoke claws...in fact, the more I reread the original description, it sounds like its semi-corporeal, like the belker, the vampiric mist, or phiuhl.

The living construct idea makes good sense to account for the blood drain/feeding.

Why only 3 HD?  These things seem more powerful (although there is so much text I may have missed where it explicitly noted 3 HD).


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## Cleon (Apr 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Why only 3 HD?  These things seem more powerful (although there is so much text I may have missed where it explicitly noted 3 HD).




Oh blast, I misread it the first time, it says "Level/Hit Dice: Nil". I must have glanced at the stats and misread the "Move: 3" as being the Hit Dice. Presumably it assumes the level/HD of the creature it's copying, but the whole wording is rather vague.

You know, it's sounding more and more like a template.

Anyhow, I'd be game to leave the Mimic Shape power for a bit so we can digest the pros and cons of the different approaches.

I'm not 100% decided on them healing naturally or having a cap con equal to the copied creature. Maybe they can go to Con+4 or gain some excess temporary hit points if they "overfeed".

Also, I forgot to note that a transient golem can opt to give up a Mimic Shape. I'll add that in to my previous post.

Here's some ideas I've had for the other special abilities:

*Discorporate Extremity (Ex):* A transient golem in a mimic shape can turn one of its extremities incorporeal (head, arm, leg, tail, et cetera). It can discorporate an extremity and/or solidify one in the same round as a free action, but only once per round. Since the rest of the Mimicked body remains solid it is unable to walk through walls and the like, but it can use the incorporeal extremity to look or reach inside a sealed vessel or make an incorporeal touch attack.

*Infusion (Su):* An incorporeal transient golem can attempt to enter the body of a living, corporeal creature in order to steal its life-force and copy its mind and body. First, the golem must succeed at an incorporeal touch attack to enter an orifice on its victim - a creature in a hermetically sealed suit is thus immune to this attack. If this attack misses, the golem can simply try again the next round. If it hits, on the next round the victim must succeed at a DC X Will save or the transient golem enters their mind and nervous system, causing excruciating agony (-4 to attacks, skills and ability checks) for 1d4+1 rounds. If the victim fails this Will save they must succeed at a DC X Fortitude save the following (third) round or take Y Con damage as the golem saps their life-force. If the victim succeeds at either of these saving throws the transient golem is expelled from their body and can not use its Infusion attack against that creature again until 24 hours have passed.

I'd also like to base the "Crystal Ball" on the SRD Lich's phylactery, as I said earlier. We can leave arguing about that until later.


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## freyar (Apr 20, 2010)

Where are we getting the idea that it can look inside sealed vessels, etc?  I didn't see that (though I could have missed it in the wall of text).   I think I'd rather it can just use its incorporeal touch attack when corporeal.

If it's really incorporeal instead of gaseous, I don't think a sealed suit should protect a victim.  I need to think about the rest of the infusion ability; modeling it on malevolence in some way might work.  In particular, I'm not sure I like the touch attack requirement.


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## Cleon (Apr 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> Where are we getting the idea that it can look inside sealed vessels, etc?  I didn't see that (though I could have missed it in the wall of text).   I think I'd rather it can just use its incorporeal touch attack when corporeal.




Its not explicitly in the text, it's an obvious consequence of being able to turn partly insubstantial. It doesn't mention a limit on _what_ parts, so it should be able to turn its head incorporeal and stick it in a box. 



freyar said:


> If it's really incorporeal instead of gaseous, I don't think a sealed suit should protect a victim.  I need to think about the rest of the infusion ability; modeling it on malevolence in some way might work.  In particular, I'm not sure I like the touch attack requirement.




Yes, I agree it's contradictory but it does say it will "enter any orifice of a living creature that is accessible to air", ergo an airtight suit should prevent it.

Maybe it has to manifest as "semi-sentient air and water" when attacking a material creature?

It's not the only contradiction in the text. In one place it says a cat-mimic transient golem scratches victims to drain their blood (since it needs an open wound to use its drain blood attack), and elsewhere it says it can just "reach into a living creature to steal more energy".

The "Impossible to attack in natural form" is a better match to incorporeal than the 3E gaseous form, but then again in AD&D gaseous creatures were immune to weapons and most spells too.

We'll just have to pick one and run with it.


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## Shade (Apr 20, 2010)

Let's put it to a vote.

I'm for gaseous.


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## freyar (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm fond of gaseous, but I could go either way as long as we're consistent about it.  Just because the original text had problems making sense doesn't mean we can't make sense!


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## Cleon (Apr 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'm fond of gaseous, but I could go either way as long as we're consistent about it.  Just because the original text had problems making sense doesn't mean we can't make sense!




I prefer incorporeal for them, with them manifesting in a gaseous form to make an attack.

Here's another idea, perhaps the "insubstantial state" is effectively a Hazard, which transforms into a creature with some kind of template if it successfully attacks. In mist form it has very few vulnerabilities or attacks, so can easily be written up as something like:

*Transient Golem (CR X)*
A transient golem is a strange entity that appears as a whisp of mist, a DC20 Spot check will notice it is actually a being with vaguely humanoid features rather than a natural feature. When in fog or mists these entities are effectively _invisible_. Transient golems fly at 10 feet with a perfect maneuverability and can  sense any living creature within 60 feet (as per the _detect animals or plants_ spell, except it detects any living creature).

Transient golems are naturally incorporeal/gaseous (see gaseous form} [_to be decided_] and are immune  to all forms of damage and magic apart from spells with the Abjuration descriptor which can block or banish the golem. A transient golem's life-force is contained in a crystal phylactery (see Manifest Transient Golem Template, below), any effect that would destroy, imprison or banish the golem instead sends it back to its phylactery. Abjuration spells always have their full effect a transient golem regardless of their descriptors, e.g. a _dispel evil_ spell will banish the golem back to its phylactery, even though it is not Evil, and a golem can not touch a creature under a _protection from good_ spell, even though it is neither Good nor summoned. A transient golem resists Abjuration effects as if it has 13 Hit Dice, 16 in all its attributes and +7 Fort, Ref and Will save.

Transient Golems attack living creatures by manifesting part of their body as a tendril of mist and trying to insert it into an orifice of their intended target. [we can copy most of the previous Infusion attack for this.] If the attack is successful, the golem flees and, sometime within the next hour, it can solidify its body into a copy of the creature it attacked (see Manifest Transient Golem Template, below).


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## Shade (Apr 22, 2010)

No thanks.  (Sorry, it's complicated enough without dragging a hazard into the mix).

We desperately need Demiurge to weigh in on this.  He always seems to find the simple and elegant among the overly complex.


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## freyar (Apr 22, 2010)

Oof, I'm with Shade.  

Ok, I think this is going to be messy, but I have a proposed plan.

1) Write a gaseous or incorporeal monster (at this point, I'm ceasing to care which ) with an infusion special attack and phylactery type object (though why a golem would need a phylactery is beyond me, what a weird monster!).  Am I missing any special ability here?

2) After infusion, rather than a modified alternate form/change shape, apply a template to the character "infused" to create a duplicate.  This should have a "Con countdown" SQ.  I vote that the "blood drain" or whatever it should be called should be a touch attack with a "do not notice" ability.  We can flavor it to be incorporeality, but make it a normal touch attack mechanically.

Sound ok?


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## Shade (Apr 22, 2010)

Yeah, that could work.  A bit like the raggamoffyn, the only other construct I'm aware of that bestows a template upon other creatures.


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## freyar (Apr 22, 2010)

To be honest, the raggamoffyn probably didn't need the template as much as this one does...


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## Cleon (Apr 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> Oof, I'm with Shade.
> 
> Ok, I think this is going to be messy, but I have a proposed plan.
> 
> ...




I was thinking a hazard is far simpler than a monster. The "disembodied" transient golem basically doesn't have abilities apart from a fly speed and an Infusion attack, so why bother statting up the rest of it?

Making its "embodied" form a template seems the best approach.


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## freyar (Apr 23, 2010)

The disembodied base form should definitely have hp, mental abilities, etc.  As for hazards, somehow they seem more iffy to me just because they're nonstandardized.  And they are usually immobile, which would be tricky for this one.


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2010)

Agreed.  It also makes for tricky CRs.


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## Cleon (Apr 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> The disembodied base form should definitely have hp, mental abilities, etc.  As for hazards, somehow they seem more iffy to me just because they're nonstandardized.  And they are usually immobile, which would be tricky for this one.




These blinking things are pretty iffy and nonstandardized, so that doesn't bother me much. Going by the description a transient golem might not even have mental abilities when it isn't embodied as a creature!

But if you both prefer it as an incorporeal beastie I suppose I'll go along.

Shall we use the 13 HD Incorporeal Construct with 16-17 ability scores I proposed earlier as a baseline?

Medium sized?


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2010)

13HD, Medium seems fair enough.  And those abilities work for me, at least to try it out.  I'm not sure about much with this critter!


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## Cleon (Apr 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> 13HD, Medium seems fair enough.  And those abilities work for me, at least to try it out.  I'm not sure about much with this critter!




So we're talking:

Medium Construct (Incorporeal)
Hit Dice: 13d10+20 (91 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: fly 10 ft. (perfect) 
Armor Class: ? (+3 Dex, ?), touch ?, flat-footed ?
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+9
Attack: Incorporeal touch +10 touch (infusion)
Full Attack: Incorporeal touch +10 touch (infusion)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Infusion
Special Qualities: Construct traits, immunity to magic, rejuvenation
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +7
Abilities: Str —, Dex 17, Con —, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 16
Skills: 32 - Hide?
Feats: 5 - Track [_for finding victims_], Ability Focus (infusion) and Weapon Focus (incorporeal touch) [_for attacking them_], Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes [_for resisting counter-attacks_]?


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## freyar (Apr 26, 2010)

Looks fine to me.  

Before getting to infusion, what do we want to do with immunity to magic?  I didn't see any spells affecting it in incorporeal form, so just blanket immunity to spells that allow SR?

Rename rejuvenation as phylactery?


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## Shade (Apr 26, 2010)

freyar said:
			
		

> Before getting to infusion, what do we want to do with immunity to magic? I didn't see any spells affecting it in incorporeal form, so just blanket immunity to spells that allow SR?
> 
> Rename rejuvenation as phylactery?




Yes on both counts.


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## freyar (Apr 27, 2010)

Ok, Cleon had the following for infusion:


			
				Cleon said:
			
		

> Infusion (Su): An incorporeal transient golem can attempt to enter the body of a living, corporeal creature in order to steal its life-force and copy its mind and body. First, the golem must succeed at an incorporeal touch attack to enter an orifice on its victim - a creature in a hermetically sealed suit is thus immune to this attack. If this attack misses, the golem can simply try again the next round. If it hits, on the next round the victim must succeed at a DC X Will save or the transient golem enters their mind and nervous system, causing excruciating agony (-4 to attacks, skills and ability checks) for 1d4+1 rounds. If the victim fails this Will save they must succeed at a DC X Fortitude save the following (third) round or take Y Con damage as the golem saps their life-force. If the victim succeeds at either of these saving throws the transient golem is expelled from their body and can not use its Infusion attack against that creature again until 24 hours have passed.




This is pretty solid.  I think we can retain most of it, simplifying maybe a little, and then mentioning that the transient golem then takes corporeal form as specified by the template.  Sound right?


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## Cleon (Apr 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks fine to me.
> 
> Before getting to infusion, what do we want to do with immunity to magic?  I didn't see any spells affecting it in incorporeal form, so just blanket immunity to spells that allow SR?
> 
> Rename rejuvenation as phylactery?




It should still be affected by Abjuration spells. e.g. a _protection from X_ spell would stop the golem touching a creature, which would prevent it using its Infusion attack.


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## Cleon (Apr 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ok, Cleon had the following for infusion:
> 
> 
> This is pretty solid.  I think we can retain most of it, simplifying maybe a little, and then mentioning that the transient golem then takes corporeal form as specified by the template.  Sound right?




Suits me.

The big question is how much Con damage do we want it to do. Enough to be nasty but not enough to regularly kill a healthy opponent (e.g. 1d10 or 2d6 Con), or enough to threaten the like of all but the heartiest (e.g. 2d8 or 3d6 Con).

2d6 Con?


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## freyar (Apr 27, 2010)

Cleon said:


> It should still be affected by Abjuration spells. e.g. a _protection from X_ spell would stop the golem touching a creature, which would prevent it using its Infusion attack.




Should that be part of immunity to magic or infusion?  I guess either would work for me.



Cleon said:


> Suits me.
> 
> The big question is how much Con damage do we want it to do. Enough to be nasty but not enough to regularly kill a healthy opponent (e.g. 1d10 or 2d6 Con), or enough to threaten the like of all but the heartiest (e.g. 2d8 or 3d6 Con).
> 
> 2d6 Con?




2d6 Con works.  Can we get rid of the hermetically sealed suit business? (i feel like we're haggling. )


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2010)

freyar said:


> Should that be part of immunity to magic or infusion?  I guess either would work for me.




I'd say either works for me as well, with a slight leaning toward immunity to magic.



freyar said:


> 2d6 Con works.  Can we get rid of the hermetically sealed suit business? (i feel like we're haggling. )




Seconded!


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2010)

Let's try this:

Infusion (Su): An incorporeal transient golem can attempt to enter the body of a living, corporeal creature in order to steal its life-force and copy its mind and body. First, the golem must succeed at an incorporeal touch attack to enter an orifice on its victim. If successful, on the next round the victim must succeed at a DC X Fort save or the transient golem enters their mind and nervous system, causing excruciating agony (-4 to attacks, skills and ability checks) for 1d4+1 rounds. In addition, the victim takes 1d4 Con damage per round as the golem saps their life-force.  Finally, at the end of the 1d4+1 rounds, the golem leaves the victim's body and takes a corporeal form duplicating the victim (this is given by the X template below).  If the save succeeds, the transient golem is expelled from the victim's body and can not use its Infusion attack against that creature again for 24 hours.  

I tried to simplify the saves a bit, and the average Con damage is about the same as for the 2d6 case, though it's more variable.


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## Cleon (Apr 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'd say either works for me as well, with a slight leaning toward immunity to magic.




It definitely seems a better fit to Immunity To Magic as far as I'm concerned.


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## Cleon (Apr 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> Let's try this:
> 
> Infusion (Su): An incorporeal transient golem can attempt to enter the body of a living, corporeal creature in order to steal its life-force and copy its mind and body. First, the golem must succeed at an incorporeal touch attack to enter an orifice on its victim. If successful, on the next round the victim must succeed at a DC X Fort save or the transient golem enters their mind and nervous system, causing excruciating agony (-4 to attacks, skills and ability checks) for 1d4+1 rounds. In addition, the victim takes 1d4 Con damage per round as the golem saps their life-force.  Finally, at the end of the 1d4+1 rounds, the golem leaves the victim's body and takes a corporeal form duplicating the victim (this is given by the X template below).  If the save succeeds, the transient golem is expelled from the victim's body and can not use its Infusion attack against that creature again for 24 hours.
> 
> I tried to simplify the saves a bit, and the average Con damage is about the same as for the 2d6 case, though it's more variable.




That'd work, although I quite like the idea of two saves, one for life-sapping and one for memory-copying.

The damage might be a little high, since an average humanoid will probably survive with a few points of Con (3.5 & 2.5 = 8.75). The original took 50.5% of its victim's health on average.

Maybe make it 1d3 Con per round to cover a range of 2-15 Con damage?


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2010)

1d3 Con per round is a good compromise.  

Shade, how do you like it?


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2010)

Looks reasonable so far.


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2010)

Ok, should we go with that infusion, then, with 1d3 Con/round?


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## Cleon (May 1, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ok, should we go with that infusion, then, with 1d3 Con/round?




That'd be alright by me.


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## freyar (May 3, 2010)

Ok.  We now have infusion, and we should note in Immunity to Magic that a transient golem cannot use infustion against a creature subject to protection from chaos, evil, good, or law effects (including magic circle spells).


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## Cleon (May 4, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ok.  We now have infusion, and we should note in Immunity to Magic that a transient golem cannot use infustion against a creature subject to protection from chaos, evil, good, or law effects (including magic circle spells).




Something like:

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A transient golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the  creature, as noted below.

All spells with the Abjuration descriptor always function against a transient golem as if the golem was a creature of a type most vulnerable to the spell. e.g. a _protection from evil_ spell affects a transient golem as if it was a summoned creature the Evil subtype despite it being neutral and unlikely to be summoned.

Note that this means _protection from evil_, _magic circle against chaos_ and similar spells automatically prevent a transient golem using its Infusion attack, since they prevent summoned monsters from making bodily contact with those they are warding.


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## freyar (May 9, 2010)

Works for me! Can anyone remember what we need next?


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## Cleon (May 11, 2010)

freyar said:


> Works for me! Can anyone remember what we need next?




I think we were going to do its Crystal Phylactery next, based on the SRD Lich's.

Something like this methinks:*Crystal Phylactery*
A transient golem's life force is stored in a crystal sphere similar to a lich's magic phylactery. The creation of a transient golem is actually the creation of its crystal phylactery (See Construction, below). As a rule, the only way to  get rid of a transient golem for sure is to destroy its phylactery. Unless its  phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich reappears 1d10 days after  its apparent death.

A transient golem's crystal phylactery is Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness 20, and a break DC of 40.​I was also going to add a bit to the immunity to magic that abjurations that would imprison the golem, such as _sequester_, instead destroying it so the golem reforms at its phylactery.

Revising...*Immunity to Magic (Ex):* A transient golem is immune to any spell or  spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain  spells and effects function differently against the  creature, as noted  below.

All spells with the Abjuration descriptor always function against a  transient golem as if the golem was a creature of a type most vulnerable  to the spell. e.g. a _protection from evil_ spell affects a  transient golem as if it was a summoned creature the Evil subtype  despite it being neutral and unlikely to be summoned. If the Abjuration would trap or control the golem, such as the _dismissal_, _imprisonment_ or _sequester_ spells, it instead "kills" the golem and forces it to return to its crystal phylactery (see below).

Note that this means _protection from evil_, _magic circle  against chaos_ and similar spells automatically prevent a transient  golem using its Infusion attack, since they prevent summoned monsters  from making bodily contact with those they are warding.​I am also getting a bit dubious about giving it an Intelligence score. The original version is basically an "empty blank" when in its native form, so I'm thinking it should be mindless until it copies a living victim.

That would also mean we won't have to argue over its Skills and Feats.


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## freyar (May 11, 2010)

That's all fair enough, though you still have a lich in your phylactery. 

Let's let Shade sign off on it and then wrap up the details before moving to the template.


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## Shade (May 12, 2010)

I'm waiting for Cleon's summary on this one.


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## Cleon (May 13, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm waiting for Cleon's summary on this one.




Slave driver.

So far we've got the following.

I added a Cha-based to Infusion, since we forgot to give it a type. We also needed a name for the template, so I've put in "Transient Golem Doppleganger" as a place holder.

The only thing it was missing is an AC. I'm thinking natural armour +0, deflection bonus equal to Cha (= +3), like a ghost or shadow.

The original draft had an error in the grapple check - somehow the strength-less golem had got a +3 bonus on its grapple. I've fixed it.

*Golem, Transient*
Medium Construct (Incorporeal)
Hit Dice: 13d10+20 (91 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: fly 10 ft. (perfect) 
Armor Class: 16 (+3 Dex, +3 deflection), touch 16, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+6
Attack: Incorporeal touch +9 touch (infusion)
Full Attack: Incorporeal touch +9 touch (infusion)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Infusion
Special Qualities: Construct traits, crystal phylactery, immunity to magic
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +7
Abilities: Str —, Dex 17, Con —, Int —, Wis 17, Cha 16
Skills: —
Feats: —

*Combat*
A transient golem's armor class has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus or +1, whichever is higher.

*Crystal Phylactery*
A transient golem's life force is stored in a crystal sphere similar to a  lich's magic phylactery. The creation of a transient golem is actually  the creation of its crystal phylactery (See Construction, below). As a  rule, the only way to  get rid of a transient golem for sure is to  destroy its phylactery. Unless its  phylactery is located and destroyed, the golem reappears 1d10 days after  its apparent death.

A transient golem's crystal phylactery is Tiny and has 40 hit points,  hardness 20, and a break DC of 40.

*Immunity to Magic (Ex):* A transient golem is immune to any spell  or  spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition,  certain  spells and effects function differently against the  creature,  as noted  below.

All spells with the Abjuration descriptor always function against a   transient golem as if the golem was a creature of a type most vulnerable   to the spell. e.g. a _protection from evil_ spell affects a   transient golem as if it was a summoned creature the Evil subtype   despite it being neutral and unlikely to be summoned. If the Abjuration  would trap or control the golem, such as the _dismissal_, _imprisonment_  or _sequester_ spells, it instead "kills" the golem and forces it  to return to its crystal phylactery (see below).

Note that this means _protection from evil_, _magic circle   against chaos_ and similar spells automatically prevent a transient   golem using its Infusion attack, since they prevent summoned monsters   from making bodily contact with those they are warding.

*Infusion (Su):* An incorporeal transient golem can attempt to enter the  body of a living, corporeal creature in order to steal its life-force  and copy its mind and body. First, the golem must succeed at an  incorporeal touch attack to enter an orifice on its victim. If  successful, on the next round the victim must succeed at a DC 19 Fort  save or the transient golem enters their mind and nervous system,  causing excruciating agony (-4 to attacks, skills and ability checks)  for 1d4+1 rounds. In addition, the victim takes 1d3 Con damage per round  as the golem saps their life-force.  Finally, at the end of the 1d4+1  rounds, the golem leaves the victim's body and takes a corporeal form  duplicating the victim (this is given by the Transient Golem Facsimile template below).  If the  save succeeds, the transient golem is expelled from the victim's body  and can not use its Infusion attack against that creature again for 24  hours.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Shade (May 13, 2010)

Thanks.  

How about "Transient Golem Infused Creature" or "Transient Golem Vessel" for the template name?


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## Cleon (May 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> Thanks.
> 
> How about "Transient Golem Infused Creature" or "Transient Golem Vessel" for the template name?




Both those sound like the Transient Golem is possessing a victim instead of copying them with their Infusion attack.

If you don't like Doppleganger, how about:

Transient Golem Duplicate

Transient Golem Replicant


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## freyar (May 16, 2010)

Interestingly the +Cha deflection bonus to AC is a standard part of the incorporeal package. 

Let's go with Duplicate.  Replicant sounds a little techy somehow.  Ready to start the template?


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## Cleon (May 17, 2010)

freyar said:


> Interestingly the +Cha deflection bonus to AC is a standard part of the incorporeal package.




Yes I know. The ghost template goes to the trouble in including it in  the description, so I thought I would too.



freyar said:


> Let's go with Duplicate.  Replicant sounds a little techy somehow.  Ready to start the template?




Yes, Replicant does sound like it should be running around in _Blade Runner_.

That said, Duplicate is just a bit too boring for me.

I know, how about a Facsimile?

That I like, I'm going to edit it in.


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## Shade (May 17, 2010)

Facsimile seems even more "techy" to me.  

_The mighty transient golem faxes in its attack..._

Of the three, I like "replicant" best, but "duplicate" is preferable to the fax machine.


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## Cleon (May 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Facsimile seems even more "techy" to me.
> 
> _The mighty transient golem faxes in its attack..._
> 
> Of the three, I like "replicant" best, but "duplicate" is preferable to the fax machine.




Bah, kids these days. People have been making facsimiles for millennia but all they know is this trendy new "fax" contraption that's only been around since the 19th century.



Actually any of them are OK. Shall we compromise with Duplicate?


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## Shade (May 17, 2010)

Heh, sure.  I can live with any of 'em, though (except doppelganger, since that is a specific creature).


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## Cleon (May 18, 2010)

Shade said:


> Heh, sure.  I can live with any of 'em, though (except doppelganger, since that is a specific creature).




Shall we go for Duplicate as a compromise then and start on the template?

Most of it's going to be "as base creature" except for its ability to slyly drain blood via a melee touch attack and a few special qualities.

The Transient Golem Duplicate will have the same Immunity To Magic as the incorporeal version.

I'm thinking it'll be able to sense a bleeding wound within a certain distance (and probably must make some kind of Will roll to resist feeding on it).

They need a Special Quality describing how they gradually lose Con unless they use Blood Drain to replenish it. Do they gain temporary bonus hp if they drain more Con than the base creature? We could use the "excess hits up to the bonus hit points of a Construct of its size" trick.

We need to mention they start out with however much Con they did in their Infusion attack.

Finally, they can deliberately evaporate into their incorporeal for, but then they must use Infusion to steal another form.


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## Shade (May 18, 2010)

Sure, "duplicate" is fine.

This might be worth modifying...

Keen Scent (Ex): A shark can notice creatures by scent in a 180-foot radius and detect blood in the water at ranges of up to a mile.


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## Cleon (May 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sure, "duplicate" is fine.
> 
> This might be worth modifying...
> 
> Keen Scent (Ex): A shark can notice creatures by scent in a 180-foot radius and detect blood in the water at ranges of up to a mile.




Hmm, yes I suppose it would. I'd reduce the range a bit.?

Come to think of it, if we give the templated creature "Scent Blood" then we ought to give the incorporeal form the same ability.

Anyhow, let's leave that on the back burner for the time being and start on the template.

*Transient Golem Duplicate*
A transient golem can use its Infusion attack to turn itself into an imitation of any living creature. Its appearance is identical to the creature it is duplicating, but its behaviour may be different. Most noticeably, they always have an obsessive thirst for blood, which they must feed upon to maintain their physical form.

Some transient golem duplicates do not realize they are imposters and sincerely believe they are the creature they are imitating.

*Creating a Transient Golem Duplicate*
"Transient Golem Duplicate" is an acquired template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

A transient golem duplicate uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

*Special Attacks*
A transient golem duplicate retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains a blood-draining incorporeal touch attack.

_*Blood-Draining Touch (Su):*_ ?

*Special Qualities
*A transient golem duplicate has all the special qualities of the base creature as well as  those described below.

*Living Construct (Ex):* Although a transient golem duplicate gains the type and subtypes of whatever creature it retains some of the qualities of the Construct type. [_*what shall these be?*_]

_*Discorporate (Ex):*_ A transient golem duplicate can turn itself back into a transient golem as a standard action. It becomes incorporeal and loses all this template's abilities. Transient golems only discorporate in dire circumstances, they can become corporeal again by using their Infusion attack once more.

_*Immunity to Magic:*_ - _*just copy the golem's*_.

*Lust for Blood (Ex):* _*Some kind of Will check to resist feeding?*_

_*Scent Blood (Ex):*_ A transient golem duplicate can notice living creatures in a 60 feet by the smell of their blood. It can detect spilled blood at ranges of up to a mile, and track a bleeding creature as if it had the scent special quality and the Track feat. 

*Abilities*
Same as the base creature, except that its Constitution score may be reduced if it is short of blood (see Blood-Draining Touch, above).

A newly formed duplicate has a Constitution score equal to the Con damage it did to the base creature with its Infusion attack, it use Blood-Draining Touch to increase its Constitution to its full value as quickly as it can.


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## Shade (May 19, 2010)

Here's an ability that we might mine for "lust for blood"...

Need to Feed (Ex): A ravenous creature is driven by a consuming hunger, not a lust for battle. Whenever it slays a living opponent, the ravenous undead must succeed at a DC 15 Will save or immediately stop to eat its kill. When eating, a ravenous creature can do nothing else. It loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and does not make attacks of opportunity.


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## Cleon (May 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Here's an ability that we might mine for "lust for blood"...
> 
> Need to Feed (Ex): A ravenous creature is driven by a consuming hunger, not a lust for battle. Whenever it slays a living opponent, the ravenous undead must succeed at a DC 15 Will save or immediately stop to eat its kill. When eating, a ravenous creature can do nothing else. It loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and does not make attacks of opportunity.




So something like:

*Bloodthirst (Ex):* A transient golem duplicate is driven by its need for fresh blood. Whenever it is within 60 ft. of a creature with a bleeding wound (from a _sword of wounding_ or the like), it must succeed at a DC 15 Will save or immediately try to use its blood-draining touch to feed upon the bleeding creature's wound.


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## Shade (May 19, 2010)

Yeah, that looks good.


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## Cleon (May 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, that looks good.




Right-ho. That just leaves us to decide what Construct immunities to include in Living Construct (I'm thinking just the standard selection that warforged have) and working out the details of their Blood-Drinking Touch.

The latter will be the tricky one.

Here's some earlier attempts:



> *Blood Drain (Su):* A transient golem using Mimic Shape  (see below) can make an incorporeal touch attack against any creature  with an unhealed wound. It can also Blood Drain with any natural attacks  it gains from its mimicked shape. The wound instantly closes and stops  bleeding (which stops any continuing damage from a _wounding_  weapon or the like), but the creature takes 1 point of Constitution  damage and the golem's Con increases by 1 (up to the Constitution of the  creature it mimicked). This touch is completely painless, and it  requires a [DC X Spot or Autohypnosis?] check for the victim to notice  the loss. Another character who closely examines the victim can notice  their anemia with a DC X Heal check.
> 
> From *Mimic Shape (Su):*
> A transient golem loses 1 point of Constitution for every  day it maintains a mimicked shape. It can regain this Con using Blood  Drain. Should its Constitution ever drop to zero the golem evaporates  back into its Incorporeal form and loses all the changes gained by Mimic  Shape.




Combining them I came up with the following. I think it's a pretty good first draft.

*Blood-Drain (Su):* A transient golem duplicate has an incorporeal touch attack that does 1 point of Constitution  damage, it can literally reach inside a victim to sup upon their blood and life force.  Any open wounds the victim may have will instantly close and stop  bleeding (this stops any continuing damage from a _wounding_  weapon or the like). This attack is subtle and completely painless. The victim will not realize they have been attacked unless they succeed at a [DC X Spot or Autohypnosis?] check - they will notice any miraculously closed wounds, of course, but that appears to be healing rather than an attack. Another character who closely examines the victim can notice  their anemia with a successful DC X Heal check.

A transient golem duplicate can also Blood Drain through any natural attacks possessed by the creature it has duplicated, adding 1 point of Constitution damage to each such attack that hits.

Transient golem duplicates must use Blood Drain to maintain their corporeal form. For every day they spend without using Blood Drain they will lose 1d3 points of Constitution. The duplicate can regain this lost Constitution using Blood Drain, regaining 1 point of Constitution for every point of Constitution damage it does to a victim. If its Constitution should ever fall to zero it will immediately lose its transient golem duplicate template and Discorporate, becoming an incorporeal transient golem once more. The golem can not use Blood Drain to gain a Constitution score higher than the base creature it is duplicating, instead the creature gains 5 temporary hit points for every excess point of Constitution damage it does, to a maximum equal to the bonus hit points of a Construct of its size. (e.g. a Medium-sized duplicate can gain up to 20 temporary hit points through excessive Blood Draining.)


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## Shade (May 20, 2010)

That looks like it'll work, but I'd suggest a name change to avoid confusion with typical blood drain.   "Blood feed" or "steal blood" might work, but I'm sure someone will come up with something better.


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## Cleon (May 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> That looks like it'll work, but I'd suggest a name change to avoid confusion with typical blood drain.   "Blood feed" or "steal blood" might work, but I'm sure someone will come up with something better.




Yes, that makes sense.

Filch Blood? Siphon Blood? Tap Blood?

Frankly, I like "Blood Stealing" or "Thieve Blood" better than any of those. I'll use that for the time being. I'll use *Steal Blood* for the time being.

Now, what DC should we have for the Spot / Heal / Autohypnosis check? I'm thinking a flat DC25 or DC20. We could make it HD and ability-based, but that would mean it varies a lot depending on what creature it's mimicking - e.g. say we make it Cha-based and it copies a rat, the skill checks would only be DC6. Its supposed to be very hard to notice, so I would make the skill check over 20, that way an average commoner will not notice, but most PCs will have some chance. Let's say DC25 for the Spot, DC20 for Autohypnosis and Heal.

Revising...

*Steal Blood (Su):* A transient golem duplicate has an incorporeal  touch attack that does 1 point of Constitution  damage, it can literally  reach inside a victim to sup upon their blood and life force.  Any open  wounds the victim may have will instantly close and stop  bleeding  (this stops any continuing damage from a _wounding_  weapon or the  like). This attack is subtle and completely painless. The victim will  not realize they have been attacked unless they succeed at a DC25 Spot check or a DC20 Autohypnosis check - they will notice  any miraculously closed wounds, of course, but that appears to be  healing rather than an attack. Another character who closely examines  the victim can notice  their anemia with a successful DC 20 Heal check.

A transient golem duplicate can also Steal Blood through any natural  attacks possessed by the creature it has duplicated, adding 1 point of  Constitution damage to each such attack that hits.

Transient golem duplicates must use Steal Blood to maintain their  corporeal form. For every day they spend without stealing blood they  will lose 1d3 points of Constitution. The duplicate can regain this lost  Constitution using Steal Blood, regaining 1 point of Constitution for  every point of Constitution damage it steals. If its  Constitution should ever fall to zero it will immediately lose its  transient golem duplicate template and Discorporate, becoming an  incorporeal transient golem once more. The golem can not use Steal Blood   to gain a Constitution score higher than the base creature it is  duplicating, instead the creature gains 5 temporary hit points for every  excess point of Constitution damage it steals, to a maximum equal to the  bonus hit points of a Construct of its size. (e.g. a Medium-sized  duplicate can gain up to 20 temporary hit points through excess Blood Stealing.)


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## Shade (May 20, 2010)

The giant leech uses an opposed Hide check to set the DC...

Anesthetize (Ex): A creature bitten by a giant leech must succeed on a Spot check (opposed by the giant leech's Hide check) to notice the attack if both the leech and its target are in murky water at least 2 feet deep. Each round of blood drain entitles the creature to another Spot check to notice the leech, with a cumulative +2 bonus on the check per round after the first. Characters attacked in clear water, or who have some means of detecting the leech without seeing it, notice the attack immediately.

...I'm not sure that makes much sense in this case, though.


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## freyar (May 20, 2010)

A couple quick comments:

I think HD should switch to 13, hp the same as the transient golem, but I'm open to persuasion.

More in a bit

Adding in EDIT: I also think the abilities should switch to the Wis and Cha of the transient golem, though also not a deal breaker.  

I like "Thieve Blood" for the steal blood ability, and the fixed DCs that Cleon has seem about right to me.

Finally, I'm not sure if we should call it "living construct" since that's a subtype elsewhere with a specific meaning.  But I'm not coming up with a better name at the moment.


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## Cleon (May 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> A couple quick comments:
> 
> I think HD should switch to 13, hp the same as the transient golem, but I'm open to persuasion.
> 
> Adding in EDIT: I also think the abilities should switch to the Wis and Cha of the transient golem, though also not a deal breaker.




I'd rather it duplicated the HD, hp and type of the duplicated creature, since the original transient golem effectively became a copy of its victim stat-wise.



freyar said:


> I like "Thieve Blood" for the steal blood ability, and the fixed DCs that Cleon has seem about right to me.




Thieve Blood is fine by me. I still like fixed DC, but if we're calling it thievery maybe we could also allow a Sleight of Hand skill check to increase the DC?



freyar said:


> Finally, I'm not sure if we should call it "living construct" since that's a subtype elsewhere with a specific meaning.  But I'm not coming up with a better name at the moment.




Yes, I wasn't entirely happy with calling it a "Living Construct" either. Upon reflection, let's just give it an "Immunities" SQ, something like:

*Immunities (Ex):* Although a transient golem duplicate has most of the body functions of a living creature it is only an imitation of life, so retains some of the Construct traits of its incorporeal form. The duplicate is immune to *X*.

Then we just need to decide on what the X is. I'm thinking we should give it the following:


Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to death effects and necromancy effects.
Not subject to ability damage, ability drain or energy drain.
Not at risk of death from massive damage. Immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points or less.
Since it was never alive, a transient golem duplicate cannot be raised or resurrected.


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## freyar (May 25, 2010)

I'm not sure I like the Sleight of Hand check.  However tricky the golem is shouldn't affect how sickly the victim looks, for example.

That's probably a reasonable list for the immunities, though I could see dropping immunity to mind-affecting, especially if it keeps the Wis and Cha of the base creature.

Seems strange to me that it could gain or lose HD, though I could see swapping construct bonus hp for usual Con-based "bonus" hp.  HD are a basic property of the creature; alternate form and change shape don't change HD, and even the more powerful polymorph spells only change HD in a limited way.


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## Cleon (May 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'm not sure I like the Sleight of Hand check.  However tricky the golem is shouldn't affect how sickly the victim looks, for example.




I was only joking about Sleight of Hand. I'd put a  after it but it didn't appear in the post for some reason. I'd better edit it back in.

Besides, I was thinking the Sleight of Hand would be in the skill contest vs Spot or Autohypnosise (i.e. to resist the attack), not against the Heal skill check.



freyar said:


> That's probably a reasonable list for the immunities, though I could see dropping immunity to mind-affecting, especially if it keeps the Wis and Cha of the base creature.




I'd be OK dropping immunity to mind-affecting. It's still got immunity to magic, so it's not like it would crop up that often.



freyar said:


> Seems strange to me that it could gain or lose HD, though I could see swapping construct bonus hp for usual Con-based "bonus" hp.  HD are a basic property of the creature; alternate form and change shape don't change HD, and even the more powerful polymorph spells only change HD in a limited way.




Maybe it'd help if you looked at it another way. It's not shapeshifting per se, but manifesting a proxy (like a _simulacrum_ but more powerful) to experience the world through. The 13 HD golem itself may be "possessing" the duplicate like a _magic jar_ spell, or sitting in its phylactery and keeping in contact with it by a silver cord like effect.

In either case the Duplicate takes after the creature that was Infused, not the golem itself.


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## freyar (May 26, 2010)

I dunno, it seemed pretty clear to me from the original text that it was the transient golem itself taking form.  Though I admit that it was plenty confusing.  

I'll let Shade cast the deciding vote.


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## Shade (May 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> I dunno, it seemed pretty clear to me from the original text that it was the transient golem itself taking form.  Though I admit that it was plenty confusing.
> 
> I'll let Shade cast the deciding vote.




That was my take as well, so I'd vote for the golem's HD.


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## Shade (Jun 3, 2010)

Added (finally!) to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jun 3, 2010)

Ok, before we get to the touch attack, let's make sure to fix these:



> Immunity to Magic: - just copy the golem's.




and



> Immunities (Ex): Although a transient golem duplicate has most of the body functions of a living creature it is only an imitation of life, so retains some of the Construct traits of its incorporeal form. The duplicate is immune to X.
> 
> Then we just need to decide on what the X is. I'm thinking we should give it the following:
> 
> ...




Maybe rather than Immunities (since we already have a separate Immunity to Magic), we should call this something else.  Like Partial Construct?  I'm fine with listing all of the above, too.


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> I dunno, it seemed pretty clear to me from the original text that it was the transient golem itself taking form.  Though I admit that it was plenty confusing.




Well in the original text it doesn't even have Hit Dice until it copies something with its Infusion attack.



freyar said:


> I'll let Shade cast the deciding vote.




You're just saying that because you know I'll be outvoted.


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> Maybe rather than Immunities (since we already have a separate Immunity to Magic), we should call this something else.  Like Partial Construct?  I'm fine with listing all of the above, too.




Transient Immunities?


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2010)

Cleon said:


> You're just saying that because you know I'll be outvoted.




Well, Shade is our benevolent dictator moderator. 



Cleon said:


> Transient Immunities?




Fine with me.

You know, I'll be glad when this one is done.  It's not as bad as the mold wyrm -- false Keraptis -- subsumed mind -- Mossmutter -- skin puppet business, but it's still pretty messy.


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## Cleon (Jun 7, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, Shade is our benevolent dictator moderator.




Are you sure about the benevolent bit?



freyar said:


> Fine with me.
> 
> You know, I'll be glad when this one is done.  It's not as bad as the mold wyrm -- false Keraptis -- subsumed mind -- Mossmutter -- skin puppet business, but it's still pretty messy.




Fortunately for my sanity I was not involved in that one, although I did watch in horror from the sidelines.

Have you had any thoughts as to what base creature to use for a sample template?

I'm fancying a house cat and a dwarf fighter. Maybe make the latter a retired adventurer who's become a butcher...


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## Shade (Jun 7, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Are you sure about the benevolent bit?




Well, I'm something ending in "evolent".  

Yeah, this is definitely on my "10 least enjoyable conversions" list.

Transient immunities works



Cleon said:


> I'm fancying a house cat and a dwarf fighter. Maybe make the latter a retired adventurer who's become a butcher...




Shine on you crazy diamond.


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2010)

Before we get to the samples, can we work out the blood draining touch and get the rest of the template cleaned up?


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## Cleon (Jun 9, 2010)

freyar said:


> Before we get to the samples, can we work out the blood draining touch and get the rest of the template cleaned up?




Sure. The last draft we were arguing about was as follows. It seems pretty complete, but we may be able to trim down the wording a bit:

*Steal Blood (Su):* A transient golem duplicate has an  incorporeal  touch attack that does 1 point of Constitution  damage, it  can literally  reach inside a victim to sup upon their blood and life  force.  Any open  wounds the victim may have will instantly close and  stop  bleeding  (this stops any continuing damage from a _wounding_   weapon or the  like). This attack is subtle and completely painless.  The victim will  not realize they have been attacked unless they succeed  at a DC25 Spot check or a DC20 Autohypnosis check - they will notice   any miraculously closed wounds, of course, but that appears to be   healing rather than an attack. Another character who closely examines   the victim can notice  their anemia with a successful DC 20 Heal check.

A transient golem duplicate can also Steal Blood through any natural   attacks possessed by the creature it has duplicated, adding 1 point of   Constitution damage to each such attack that hits.

Transient golem duplicates must use Steal Blood to maintain their   corporeal form. For every day they spend without stealing blood they   will lose 1d3 points of Constitution. The duplicate can regain this lost   Constitution using Steal Blood, regaining 1 point of Constitution for   every point of Constitution damage it steals. If its  Constitution  should ever fall to zero it will immediately lose its  transient golem  duplicate template and Discorporate, becoming an  incorporeal transient  golem once more. The golem can not use Steal Blood   to gain a  Constitution score higher than the base creature it is  duplicating,  instead the creature gains 5 temporary hit points for every  excess  point of Constitution damage it steals, to a maximum equal to the  bonus  hit points of a Construct of its size. (e.g. a Medium-sized  duplicate  can gain up to 20 temporary hit points through excess Blood Stealing.)


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2010)

Well, the only thing there to wonder about (besides maybe quick edits) is attaching it to a natural attack.  The original monster didn't mention that (I think), but it was certainly vague enough to leave us the wiggle room. It just seems a little contrary to the flavor of "stealing" the blood, though.  I'm a bit torn on this.

Oh, and another question: does the victim need to have an "open wound" (ie, unhealed hp damage)?  That seemed to be implied in the original flavor.


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## Cleon (Jun 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, the only thing there to wonder about (besides maybe quick edits) is attaching it to a natural attack.  The original monster didn't mention that (I think), but it was certainly vague enough to leave us the wiggle room. It just seems a little contrary to the flavor of "stealing" the blood, though.  I'm a bit torn on this.
> 
> Oh, and another question: does the victim need to have an "open wound" (ie, unhealed hp damage)?  That seemed to be implied in the original flavor.




The original text said a transient golem in housecat form could blood-feed by scratching someone with its claws, so I reckon they ought to be able to do so via their natural attacks.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2010)

Fair enough.  Adding in the bit about "open wounds" gives

Steal Blood (Su): A transient golem duplicate has an incorporeal touch attack that does 1 point of Constitution damage, it can literally reach inside a victim to sup upon their blood and life force, as long as that victim has unhealed hit point damage. Any open wounds the victim may have will instantly close and stop bleeding (this stops any continuing damage from a wounding  weapon or the like). This attack is subtle and completely painless. The victim will not realize they have been attacked unless they succeed at a DC25 Spot check or a DC20 Autohypnosis check - they will notice any miraculously closed wounds, of course, but that appears to be healing rather than an attack. Another character who closely examines the victim can notice their anemia with a successful DC 20 Heal check.

A transient golem duplicate can also Steal Blood through any natural attacks possessed by the creature it has duplicated, adding 1 point of Constitution damage to each such attack that hits.

Transient golem duplicates must use Steal Blood to maintain their corporeal form. For every day they spend without stealing blood they will lose 1d3 points of Constitution. The duplicate can regain this lost Constitution using Steal Blood, regaining 1 point of Constitution for every point of Constitution damage it steals. If its Constitution should ever fall to zero it will immediately lose its transient golem duplicate template and Discorporate, becoming an incorporeal transient golem once more. The golem can not use Steal Blood to gain a Constitution score higher than the base creature it is duplicating, instead the creature gains 5 temporary hit points for every excess point of Constitution damage it steals, to a maximum equal to the bonus hit points of a Construct of its size. (e.g. a Medium-sized duplicate can gain up to 20 temporary hit points through excess Blood Stealing.)


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## Cleon (Jun 13, 2010)

freyar said:


> Fair enough.  Adding in the bit about "open wounds" gives
> 
> Steal Blood (Su): A transient golem duplicate has an incorporeal touch attack that does 1 point of Constitution damage, it can literally reach inside a victim to sup upon their blood and life force, as long as that victim has unhealed hit point damage. Any open wounds the victim may have will instantly close and stop bleeding (this stops any continuing damage from a wounding  weapon or the like). This attack is subtle and completely painless. The victim will not realize they have been attacked unless they succeed at a DC25 Spot check or a DC20 Autohypnosis check - they will notice any miraculously closed wounds, of course, but that appears to be healing rather than an attack. Another character who closely examines the victim can notice their anemia with a successful DC 20 Heal check.
> 
> ...




That looks good to me. Can't think of anything worth adding.

Shall we whip up some sample creatures then?


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2010)

I'd still like to see the homebrews template tidied (things like the immunities), just so we can check over it one more time.


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## Shade (Jun 14, 2010)

Tidied.

Did I miss anything?


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2010)

I think it's ok.  Maybe Cleon has the samples all ready to go.


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## Shade (Jun 14, 2010)

5 xp says he does.


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## Cleon (Jun 15, 2010)

Shade said:


> Tidied.
> 
> Did I miss anything?




Challenge Rating and Level Adjustment.

The Transient Golem itself only has its Infusion attack, so I'd guesstimate its a CR8 or so, just for the inconvenience.

The template's blood drain and immunities should be good for a +1 CR and a +2 or +3 LA.

Oh, and the Transient Golem has an "x" for Advancement. I'm tempted to not give it any advancement ("—"), but it could go up to double HD I suppose - 14-26 HD (Medium)?


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## Cleon (Jun 15, 2010)

Shade said:


> 5 xp says he does.




You lose that bet!

I was waiting for us to agree on the template, so I wouldn't have to fiddle around with anything. As it is, I've only got the kitty worked out:

*Transient Golem Duplicate Cat*
Tiny  Animal
Hit Dice: ½d8 (2 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+2 size, +2 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-12
Attack: Claw +4 melee (1d2-4 plus steal blood) or touch +4 touch (steal blood)
Full Attack: 2 claws +4 melee (1d2-4 plus steal blood) and bite -1 melee (1d3-4 plus steal blood)
Space/Reach: 2½ ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Steal blood
Special Qualities: Bloodthirst, discorporate, immunity to magic, low-light vision, scent, scent blood, transient immunities
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Balance +10, Climb +6, Hide +16*, Jump +10,
Listen +3, Move Silently +8, Spot +3
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon FinesseB
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Domesticated or solitary
Challenge Rating: 1
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Challenge Rating and Level Adjustment.
> 
> The Transient Golem itself only has its Infusion attack, so I'd guesstimate its a CR8 or so, just for the inconvenience.
> 
> ...




I'll agree with "-" for Advancement, CR +1, and do not want a level adjustment.  These things, like "captured ones", shouldn't be playable characters.

The first sample looks good.


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2010)

Agreed, definitely don't make them playable.  And I also agree that the cat looks good.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2010)

Updated, with flavor text.


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'll agree with "-" for Advancement, CR +1, and do not want a level adjustment.  These things, like "captured ones", shouldn't be playable characters.
> 
> The first sample looks good.




I'm OK dropping the LA. I wasn't thinking of making them PCs, although I could see situations when someone gets one as a very unusual henchthing.

Shall we do the "dwarf butcher retired adventurer" next?

I'm visualising a low-level fighter with a kukri in one hand and an axe in the other...


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2010)

Here's the Dwarven Butcher:

*Transient Golem Duplicate Dwarf*
5th level Fighter
Medium Humanoid (Dwarf)
Hit Dice: 5d10+10 (37 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 20 ft. in chainmail (4 squares); base speed 20 ft.
Armor Class: 15 (+5 chainmail), touch 10, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+7
Attack: Dwarven waraxe +8 melee (1d10+5/×3) or kukri +7 melee (1d4+3/18-20) or touch +7 touch (steal blood) or light crossbow +5 ranged (1d8/19-20)
Full Attack: Dwarven waraxe +6 melee (1d10+4/×3) and kukri +5 melee (1d4+1/18-20); or touch +7 touch (steal blood); or light crossbow +5 ranged (1d8/19-20)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Dwarf traits, steal blood
Special Qualities: Bloodthirst, darkvision 60 ft., discorporate, dwarf traits, immunity to magic, scent blood, transient immunities
Saves: Fort +6*, Ref +3*, Will +2*
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 6
Skills: Climb +5, Craft (blacksmithing) +2, Craft (butchery) +2, Craft (stonemasonry) +2, Handle Animal +1, Intimidate +6
Feats: Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (dwarven waraxe), Weapon Specialization (dwarven waraxe)
Environment: Temperate mountains
Organization: Solitary, team (2-4), squad (11-20 plus 2 3rd-level sergeants and 1 leader of 3rd-6th level), or clan (30-100 plus 30% noncombatants plus 1 3rd-level sergeant per 10 adults, 5 5th-level lieutenants, and 3 7th-level captains)
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items
Alignment: Often lawful good
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: —

This transient doppleganger has copied the form of a failed dwarf adventurer who now works as a butcher.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2010)

Looks good, except for the potential confusion of the word choice "doppelganger" here.  Updated.

Finished?  (Oh dear gods, please!)


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2010)

Let's just say it's done no matter what.


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> Looks good, except for the potential confusion of the word choice "doppelganger" here.  Updated.
> 
> Finished?  (Oh dear gods, please!)




I meant to say "transient golem" or "transient duplicate" but it just typed out wrong.

EDIT: It looks good to go apart from a couple of minor errors in the Immunity to Magic descriptions, which should be as follows:

*TRANSIENT GOLEM*

*Immunity to Magic (Ex):* A transient golem is immune to any  spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition,  certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as  noted below.

All spells with the Abjuration descriptor always function against a  transient golem as if the golem was a creature of a type most vulnerable  to the spell. e.g. a protection from evil spell affects a transient  golem as if it was a summoned creature *with*  the Evil subtype despite it being neutral and unlikely to be summoned.  If the Abjuration would trap or control the golem, such as the  dismissal, imprisonment or sequester spells, it instead "kills" the  golem and forces it to return to its crystal phylactery (see below).

Note that this means protection from evil, magic circle against chaos  and similar spells automatically prevent a transient golem using its  Infusion attack, since they prevent summoned monsters from making bodily  contact with those they are warding.

*TRANSIENT GOLEM DUPLICATE*

*Immunity to Magic (Ex):* A transient golem *duplicate* is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

All spells with the Abjuration descriptor always function against a transient golem as if the golem was a creature of a type most vulnerable to the spell. e.g. a protection from evil spell affects a transient golem as if it was a summoned creature *with* the Evil subtype despite it being neutral and unlikely to be summoned. If the Abjuration would trap or control the golem, such as the dismissal, imprisonment or sequester spells, it instead "kills" the golem and forces it to return to its crystal phylactery (see *above*).

Note that this means protection from evil, magic circle against chaos and similar spells automatically prevent a transient golem using its Infusion attack, since they prevent summoned monsters from making bodily contact with those they are warding.

EDITED EDIT: Oh, and the Crystal Phylactery has a "(See Construction, below)" without said Construction. I think we'd better just cut out the mention of construction and declare them done.

I don't want to start a whole "Constructing a Transient Golem" debate!


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2010)

Fixed.


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## Cleon (Jun 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> Fixed.




Sorry about this, but I just noticed another error. The Infusion write up has "Transient Golem Facsimile template" instead of "Transient Golem Duplicate template".

I've just been through the dang thing twice and I can't find anything else wrong, so hopefully we can call it a day for this monster.


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## freyar (Jun 24, 2010)

Hmm, it would be funny not to have a construction section, though.


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## Cleon (Jun 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> Hmm, it would be funny not to have a construction section, though.




Well I guess we could.

How about this for a start:

*Construction*
Creating a transient golem requires a block of purest crystal worth at least X gp and the vaporous residue of one or more incorporeal undead. These undead must have had total hit dice at least twice the hit dice of the desired golem. These components are merged together to create the transient golem's Crystal Phylactery. Crafting the phylactery requires a DX Y Craft (sculpting) check or a DC Y Craft (stonemasonry) check. 

CL Z; Create Construct, _animate dead_, _simulacrum_, _vampiric touch_, caster must be at least Zth level; Price ????gp; Cost ???? gp + ???? XP.


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2010)

I think we can leave off a construction section, as the original was a unique creation that seemed to be a bit of a mistake.


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## Cleon (Jun 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> I think we can leave off a construction section, as the original was a unique creation that seemed to be a bit of a mistake.




I don't think we were being very serious about adding a Construction.


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2010)

Whew!  <collapses with a sigh of relief>


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## freyar (Jun 29, 2010)

Next?  Or are we going to let this thread rest for a while?


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## Cleon (Jun 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> Whew!  <collapses with a sigh of relief>




See, I'm not _entirely_ heartless.


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2010)

*Shadowsponge ("Air Stealer")*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any space
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary or groups
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: Semi- (2-4)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 9
MOVEMENT: Fl 13 (C)
HIT DICE: 7 + 7
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4/round (constriction) or 1 (ram)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Gas effects
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: G (ovoid, 36'+ long)
MORALE: Steady (11)
X.P. VALUE: 1400

These strange monsters are feared by all spacefarers. They drift in space until they sense the approach of an atmosphere, and attack mindlessly, absorbing precious air.

A shadowsponge appears as a greyish sponge. Hundreds of rubbery, many-branched air sacs protrude from a central mass. Studded with small, keen eyes and sensory patches, a sponge can 'smell' air in the void up to three miles away.

The substance of a shadowsponge is inedible. If struck by fiery or electrical attacks (which do normal damage), it burns with a thick, choking smoke. The smoke expands rapidly to fill a 30' spherical area, and lasts for 2-5 turns, completely blocking normal vision beyond 4', and turning clean air within its confines to foul.

Combat: A shadowsponge concentrates on absorbing air, swooping and turning continuously in an atmosphere. Any nearby creature risks being rammed or enveloped.

A ram (successful attack roll required) does 1 point of damage. The victim must make a Strength Check or be bowled over (items carried must save vs. "fall").

An enveloping attack surrounds a victim, squeezing and smothering for 1 point of initial damage. In subsequent rounds, enveloped beings suffer 1-4 points of constriction damage. They may automatically hit the shadowsponge with any piercing or slashing weapons in hand, but are unable to cast spells, get out other items, or wield bludgeoning weapons. Very large sponges (those of over 40 hp) can envelop two M-sized beings at once; smaller shadowsponges can entrap only one.

Any attack on a sponge may be partially suffered by an enveloped being. The being saves against the attack form (for physical weapon attacks, against Breath Weapon) to avoid taking a quarter of the damage done to the sponge (round fractions down to a minimum damage of 1 hp).

The porous, air-filled nature of a shadowsponge prevents enveloped beings from suffocating, but they must save vs. Breath Weapon on every second round or suffer the effects of harmful gases absorbed earlier by the sponge (refer to Gas Clouds in the "Flotsam of Space" section for such effects).

When a sponge is killed or dealt over 20 hp damage in a single round, it convulsively releases enveloped beings (who suffer damage from the attacks causing their release).

Habitat/Society: Shadowsponges are only semi-intelligent, but seem to herd together by instinct and move toward atmospheres in space. They avoid the large, stable atmospheres of worlds. Some sages believe shadowsponges are merely a stage in the lives of more advanced fungoid creatures. This stage, it is thought, ends when a sponge reaches a certain inner state by absorbing the nutrients it needs from absorbed gases. It then enters a world's atmosphere and falls to the surface, metamorphosing into spores to begin life anew in some other form.

Elminster cautions us that although this theory cannot be discounted, definite proof in support of it is so far lacking for several parts of the hypothetical life-cycle; the true nature of shadowsponges may be far different.

Shadowsponges never collide with each other or fight among themselves. They seem capable of rejoining scattered portions of themselves, or even joining with another sponge to form a larger whole, and have no reproductive lives or family units.

Ecology: Shadowsponges feed on nutrients gleaned from gases, absorbed light, and low level electrical and heat energy. Attacks relying entirely on heat for damage, and not flame (which has its usual effect), do not harm a shadowsponge, but rather give it additional or healing hit points equal to the normal damage done.

Sponges play no part in any food-chain. Alchemists and spell researchers of all races have looked in vain for uses for shadowsponge tissue and essence.

One experiment has given questionable results. Applica tion of low-level electrical energy generated by a shocking grasp spell and certain gnomish energy creation and storage devices causes the sponge to release 25% of its stored atmosphere.

Desperate spacefarers have been known to enclose shadowsponges in a spacewreck or other large, sturdy spacegojng storage container and forcibly drag them through planetoid atmospheres, and to skim the atmospheres of worlds. The intent of this stratagem is to gain a portable atmosphere allowing a too-small ship to carry too-large a crew on too-long a space voyage. A secondary use of caged shadowsponges is to steal air from enemies by setting a spacegoing cage adrift on a course that will bring it through the atmosphere of, or into a collision with, a hostile planetoid, base, ship, or elven armada craft.

Shadowsponges imprisoned or brought into contact with planetary atmospheres will take on and store air usable in space voyages, but the shock of this treatment seems to ultimately kill them. Each sponge saves vs. Petrification for every day of confinement. If it fails, it dies instantly, poisoning the air around it.

A dying shadowsponge fouls 40 tons of air. Once the entire carried atmosphere of a ship is fouled, additional 40-ton foulings turn 40 tons of fouled air into deadly air. Many an intrepid space explorer has been forced to cut loose towed space barges full of dead shadowsponges to escape the poisoned air and stagger along on inadequate air reserves.

*Herd Clouds*
Some small, dark shadowsponges have been observed to lead their fellows on long voyages in space and round them up into groups. These "herd clouds" have recently been studied with interest by several sages.
Herd clouds have been found to be Very intelligent (11-12) and possessed of unusually high morale: Champion (15-16). They have 8+8 Hit Dice and an XP Value of 3000.

They also have the ability to gather electrical charges, discharging these as weapons against other beings. A typical herd cloud can emit one 9d6 chain lightning attack and two forked 6d6 lightning bolts in a "day" (144-turn period). Mere contact with, or even passing through a 'charged' herd cloud will not attract such damage unless the cloud wishes to release its energy.

Some sages and alchemists believe that herd cloud essence can be harnessed in some way to guard against or generate electrical magical attacks, but experiments in this line have so far been shocking disasters.

Originally appeared in SJR1 - Lost Ships (1990).


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2010)

Whew, interesting!  Separate stats or just an underbar for the herd clouds?

Guess we'd better pick a type.  I'd probably go with aberration on these, but magical beast or at a stretch even outsider or plant could work.


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## Shade (Jul 29, 2010)

Real sponges are in the animal kingdom, aren't they?  In that case, I think magical beast is the likeliest option.


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2010)

True enough, but "sponge" just seems to be a name given by the ignorant.  Some sages think these are "fungoid," which would make them plants in D&D classification.  But they seem weird enough to be aberrations to me.  Maybe Cleon can help us decide...


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## Cleon (Jul 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Real sponges are in the animal kingdom, aren't they?  In that case, I think magical beast is the likeliest option.




Well yes, they are Animalia. However, sponges are extremely primitive creatures with a very homogeneous physiology. They don't have nerves, guts, hearts or blood vessels for example.

Therefore, I don't think Magical Beast is appropriate. I'd go for either Aberration or Ooze.

Ooze suits me, since it has the good Fortitude save.


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## freyar (Jul 31, 2010)

Oy, you've brought in another type!


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## Cleon (Aug 1, 2010)

freyar said:


> Oy, you've brought in another type!




The more the merrier.

Come to think of it, Ooze's don't get good Fort saves, do they. They're all weak saves.

Still, an Ooze's blindness and immunity to critical hits, flanking, poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph and stunning all seem good fits to a sponge.

Aberration would be my next choice, if I can't bring you around to Ooze.


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2010)

Ooze might work.  But I think I still prefer Aberration.


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## Cleon (Aug 1, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ooze might work.  But I think I still prefer Aberration.




How about a blind Aberration with all of an Ooze's immunities?


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2010)

That just might work.


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2010)

Let's do that, then, so we can all agree on something.


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## Cleon (Aug 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> Let's do that, then, so we can all agree on something.




I'd disagree if you weren't all agreeing with me!

So we're talking something like this:

*Shadowsponge ("Air Stealer")
*Huge Aberration
Hit Dice: 7d8+49 (80 hp)
Initiative: -2
Speed: fly 30 ft. (6 squares)(average)
Armor Class: 11 (-2 Dex, -2 size, +5 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+17
Attack: Slam +7 melee (1d4+6)
Full Attack: Slam +7 melee (1d4+6)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Engulf, gas
Special Qualities: Blind, immunities (poison, sleep, paralysis, polymorph, stunning and critical hits), cannot be flanked
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +0, Will +2
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 6, Con 24, Int 3, Wis 11, Cha 3
Skills: 10
Feats: 3
Environment: Space
Organization: Solitary or group (2-6)
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always chaotic neutral
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: —

Hmm, 7 Hit Dice seems quite low for a Gargantuan creature.

Should we increase the HD or shrink it to Huge?


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2010)

Since "Very large sponges (those of over 40 hp) can envelop two M-sized beings at once; smaller shadowsponges can entrap only one", I think Huge is sufficient.


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2010)

Even for Huge, 7HD is a little wimpy.  I wouldn't mind adding one or two HD, though I can live with 7.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2010)

I wouldn't mind a slight boost either.


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## Cleon (Aug 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> Since "Very large sponges (those of over 40 hp) can envelop two M-sized beings at once; smaller shadowsponges can entrap only one", I think Huge is sufficient.




Sounds reasonable.

A 15-foot space with 10-foot reach to each side is 35 feet across, after all.

I'll update the previous post.


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## Cleon (Aug 6, 2010)

freyar said:


> Even for Huge, 7HD is a little wimpy.  I wouldn't mind adding one or two HD, though I can live with 7.




Let's keep them 7HD for the time being.

What about stats. 

A Huge Shrieker would have Con 21, a Huge Violet or Phantom Fungus Str 30, Con 24, Wis 11, Cha 9 and Dex 6 (Violet) or Dex 8 (Phantom). 

A Huge Gelatinous Cube is Str 18, Dex 1, Con 30.

I am leaning towards the Gelatinous for Strength and the Violet Fungus for Con and Dex:

*Shadowsponge:* Str 18, Dex 6, Con 24, Int 3, Wis 11, Cha 9


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2010)

Seems reasonable.


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## Cleon (Aug 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> Seems reasonable.




I'll stick that in the rough draft then.

EDIT: Although the Charisma seems too high for a sponge.

I know it's what a Violet Fungus has, but I wouldn't mind dropping it to Cha 3 like a Tendriculos.

EDITED EDIT: Oh heck, I'll just do it.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2010)

Cleon said:


> EDITED EDIT: Oh heck, I'll just do it.




No!  Don't do it!  



Just kidding.  Do it.


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## Cleon (Aug 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> No!  Don't do it!
> 
> Just kidding.  Do it.




Too late!

So, should it have some kind of blindsight or blindsense?

What shall we do about the "harmful gasses" it absorbs and uses against engulfed opponents. Shall we provide a mini-table with different effects, give it a single inhaled poison or have it filled with some kind of corrosive & toxic chlorine-like gas?

Of those options, I prefer the last - acid damage and save vs poison for all engulfed creatures.

It also needs the ability to produce toxic smoke when hit by a fire or electrical attack.


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## freyar (Aug 8, 2010)

I don't mind adding blindsense or blindsight, but I'm now questioning the blind SQ, since the original text says that they have "small keen eyes."

I also prefer acid and poison and agree about releasing the toxic fumes when hit by fire or electricity.  And when it dies, so maybe it should be an expanded version of death throes.


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## Cleon (Aug 8, 2010)

freyar said:


> I don't mind adding blindsense or blindsight, but I'm now questioning the blind SQ, since the original text says that they have "small keen eyes."




Blast it! I read the bit about the eye patches but it just didn't register. 

Must have forgotten to put my brain in gear.

I'll snip out the blind SQ.



freyar said:


> I also prefer acid and poison and agree about releasing the toxic fumes when hit by fire or electricity.  And when it dies, so maybe it should be an expanded version of death throes.




So are we doing this as a separate SA? Something like:

*Death Throes (Ex):* If a shadowsponge is killed it will produce toxic fumes (see below) for [*1d3?*] rounds, covering a radius equal to six times the shadowsponge's reach (60 feet radius for a typical shadowsponge).

*Flammable (Ex):* If a shadowsponge is struck by a fire or electrical damage it will produce toxic fumes (see below) for 1 rounds, covering a radius equal to three times the shadowsponge's reach (30 feet radius for a typical shadowsponge).

*Engulf (Ex):* A shadowsponge can simply mow down Medium or smaller creatures as a standard action. It cannot make a slam attack during a round in which it engulfs. The shadowsponge merely has to move over the opponents, affecting as many as it can cover. Opponents can make opportunity attacks against the shadowsponge, but if they do so they are not entitled to a saving throw. Those who do not attempt attacks of opportunity must succeed on a DC 17 Reflex save or be engulfed; on a success, they are pushed back or aside (opponent’s choice) as the shadowsponge moves forward. Engulfed creatures are considered to be grappled and trapped within its body, every round they are engulfed they take [*1d4+4?*] crushing damage and are exposed to the poison and acid of the shadowsponge's toxic fumes (see below). The save DC is Strength-based.

*Toxic Fumes (Ex):* A shadowsponge's interior is filled with corrosive and poisonous vapors. Any creature exposed to these toxic fumes must make a DC *X* Fortitude save each round, on a success they are dazzled for *Y* rounds and take *Z* acid damage, on a failure they are blinded for *Y* rounds and take *V* acid damage and *W* [Str or Con?] damage.

Normally a shadowsponge's toxic fumes only affect opponents it has engulfed, but it will emit these fumes when dying or if it is struck by fire or lightning - see its Death Throes and Flammable traits above.


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## Shade (Aug 9, 2010)

I'm thinking we should combine the flammable,death throes, and toxic fumes into a single entry, and probably mention how it is dispersed (like fog cloud).   Something like...

Toxic Fumes (Ex): A shadowsponge's interior is filled with corrosive and poisonous vapors. Any creature exposed to these toxic fumes must make a DC X Fortitude save each round, on a success they are dazzled for Y rounds and take Z acid damage, on a failure they are blinded for Y rounds and take V acid damage and W [Str or Con?] damage.

If a shadowsponge is struck by a fire or electrical damage it will produce toxic fumes for 1 round, covering a radius equal to three times the shadowsponge's reach (30 feet radius for a typical shadowsponge).

When slain, a shadowsponge produces toxic fumes for 1d3 rounds, covering a radius equal to six times the shadowsponge's reach (60 feet radius for a typical shadowsponge).

A strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the toxic fumes in 1 round.


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## Cleon (Aug 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm thinking we should combine the flammable,death throes, and toxic fumes into a single entry, and probably mention how it is dispersed (like fog cloud).   Something like...
> 
> Toxic Fumes (Ex): A shadowsponge's interior is filled with corrosive and poisonous vapors. Any creature exposed to these toxic fumes must make a DC X Fortitude save each round, on a success they are dazzled for Y rounds and take Z acid damage, on a failure they are blinded for Y rounds and take V acid damage and W [Str or Con?] damage.
> 
> ...




My original plan was to have it in one entry, but then I thought that separating out the Death Throw / Flammability attacks would make it less likely for the DM to forget them.

I guess I'd be OK with them all in one SA if the tactics entry spelled out the sponge's flammability and death throes.


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## freyar (Aug 10, 2010)

Putting them in one entry and mentioning it in tactics sounds about right.



> A ram (successful attack roll required) does 1 point of damage. The victim must make a Strength Check or be bowled over (items carried must save vs. "fall").



  Sounds maybe like Improved Bull Rush or Improved Overrun should be a bonus feat.

Want to do something with the "dies when confined" business?


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## Shade (Aug 10, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Aug 11, 2010)

freyar said:


> Putting them in one entry and mentioning it in tactics sounds about right.
> 
> Sounds maybe like Improved Bull Rush or Improved Overrun should be a bonus feat.
> 
> Want to do something with the "dies when confined" business?




Since it knocks them prone it's an Overrun attack, not a Bull Rush.

If it happens every time they make a slam attack I'd prefer adding an Extraordinary Attack modelled on the SRD Wolf's Trip, e.g.:

*Bowl Over (Ex):* A shadowsponge that hits with a slam attack can attempt to knock its opponent prone. Resolve this as an Overrun attack (+X Strength check modifier) that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Unlike a regular Overrun attack, the opponent can not avoid it by simply stepping aside, nor is the shadowsponge ever knocked prone if it loses the opposed Strength check.


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2010)

Or we can reuse this (created by yourself, nonetheless ):

Overrun (Ex): An elephant bird that hits with a charge attack can attempt to overrun its opponent (+3 check modifier) as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If the elephant bird fails it has no risk of falling prone.


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## Cleon (Aug 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> Or we can reuse this (created by yourself, nonetheless ):
> 
> Overrun (Ex): An elephant bird that hits with a charge attack can attempt to overrun its opponent (+3 check modifier) as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If the elephant bird fails it has no risk of falling prone.




I thought about that, but the shadowsponge doesn't seem to need to make a run-up to knock someone over.

We could use it with a standard slam instead of a charge I suppose:

*Overrun (Ex):* A shadowsponge that hits with a slam attack can  attempt to overrun its opponent (+3 check modifier) as a free action  without provoking an attack of opportunity. If the shadowsponge fails  it has no risk of falling prone.


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2010)

That works for me!


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## freyar (Aug 12, 2010)

Looks good here, too.

So the question remains: does capturing them kill them within days, or is that just flavor text?


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## Cleon (Aug 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks good here, too.
> 
> So the question remains: does capturing them kill them within days, or is that just flavor text?




I think we can cover that with flavour text, e.g. "A captive shadowsponge refuses to eat or drink, so perishes within a few days."


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## freyar (Aug 14, 2010)

Any other special abilities?

Am I just imagining, or were we talking about giving these a Hide bonus against a starry sky?  Maybe that's the al-jahar; I should check.

Anyway, Hide seems like a reasonable skill for these, though I welcome other ideas.


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## Cleon (Aug 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> Any other special abilities?




Well we've got the following:

"They drift in space until they sense the approach of an atmosphere, and attack mindlessly, absorbing precious air."

"a sponge can 'smell' air in the void up to three miles away"

So they steal air, which they can sense from up to 3 miles off.



freyar said:


> Am I just imagining, or were we talking about giving these a Hide bonus against a starry sky?  Maybe that's the al-jahar; I should check.




That was the Space Mimic.



freyar said:


> Anyway, Hide seems like a reasonable skill for these, though I welcome other ideas.




I'm not seeing Hide for them. They're enormous grey lumps, which doesn't seem very conducive to hiding.

I was thinking more Spot, since they are "studded with small, keen eyes and sensory patches". Maybe with a +4 or so racial bonus, since their eyes are "keen".


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## Shade (Aug 16, 2010)

So, something like a shark's keen scent for smelling "air"?   Expand that to include air-breathing creatures (which presumably have some air in their respiratory system)?

For the "steal air" ability, we could gains some inspiration here...

Steal Breath (Su): As a full-round action, a breathdrinker can attempt to suck the air from the lungs of any helpless creature within reach. The target must make a successful Fortitude saving throw (DC 17) or take 1d6 points of Constitution damage. The target dies when his or her Constitution score reaches 0. The breathdrinker heals 5 points of damage for each point of Constitution the target loses, gaining any excess as temporary hit points. So long as the target remains helpless, the breathdrinker continues to use this attack against that creature every round until it dies.


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## Cleon (Aug 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> So, something like a shark's keen scent for smelling "air"?   Expand that to include air-breathing creatures (which presumably have some air in their respiratory system)?




It doesn't seem accurate enough to detect the air in an individual's lungs, it just senses an "atmosphere".

Something like:

*Sense Air (Ex):* A shadowsponge can "smell" breathable air. It can sense the presence and approximate direction of any breathable atmosphere within a range of three miles.



Shade said:


> For the "steal air" ability, we could gains some inspiration here...
> 
> Steal Breath (Su): As a full-round action, a breathdrinker can attempt to suck the air from the lungs of any helpless creature within reach. The target must make a successful Fortitude saving throw (DC 17) or take 1d6 points of Constitution damage. The target dies when his or her Constitution score reaches 0. The breathdrinker heals 5 points of damage for each point of Constitution the target loses, gaining any excess as temporary hit points. So long as the target remains helpless, the breathdrinker continues to use this attack against that creature every round until it dies.




It doesn't seem to be an individual attack like that, more that the 'sponge simply absorbs the useful gases from an atmosphere very quickly.

Something like this maybe:

*Absorb Air (Ex):* A shadowsponge can rapidly absorb oxygen and other life-giving gases. Every minute a shadowsponge is in a breathable atmosphere, it absorbs one day's worth of air for every hit dice it possesses (a "day's worth" being as much air as a single Medium-sized creature normally breathes in 24 hours). They can quickly exhaust small volumes of air such as a spelljammer ship's air-envelope, asphyxiating all air-breathing creatures within them. Shadowsponges can store up to 10 day's worth of air for every hit point they possess.


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2010)

Updated.

I added all-around vision due to the many eyes and the suggestion upthread of giving 'em a Spot bonus.  I agree with all ranks in Spot, too.

Feats: 3

Challenge Rating: 5?  It's tougher than a gel cube, and its toxic fumes seems to put it par with most of the CR 5 oozes.

Advancement: x

A typical shadowsponge is 36 feet long and weighs x pounds.

We still need to fill in all the variables here, right?
Toxic Fumes (Ex): A shadowsponge's interior is filled with corrosive and poisonous vapors. Any creature exposed to these toxic fumes must make a DC 20 Fortitude save each round, or be blinded for Y rounds and take V acid damage and W [Str or Con?] damage. Even with a successful save, a victim is still dazzled for Y rounds and take Z acid damage. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## Cleon (Aug 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> I added all-around vision due to the many eyes and the suggestion upthread of giving 'em a Spot bonus.  I agree with all ranks in Spot, too.




All-Around Vision is fine by me.



Shade said:


> Feats: 3
> 
> Challenge Rating: 5?  It's tougher than a gel cube, and its toxic fumes seems to put it par with most of the CR 5 oozes.
> 
> Advancement: x




Not 100% sure about the CR since it depends on what we decide for the Toxic Fumes, but 5 is certainly in the right ballpark.

Advancement: 8-14 HD (Huge); 15-21 HD (Gargantuan)



Shade said:


> A typical shadowsponge is 36 feet long and weighs x pounds.




Since they're now Huge rather than Gargantuan I'd half the dimensions. They're probably pretty lightweight, being mostly air - maybe 2 pounds per cubic feet? That still works out to 6,000 pounds for an 18-foot diameter sphere.A shadowsponge's spongy body is mostly air, making it remarkably lightweight - a typical shadowsponge is a sphere roughly 18 feet in diameter, weighing around 6,000 pounds.​


Shade said:


> We still need to fill in all the variables here, right?
> 
> Toxic Fumes (Ex): A shadowsponge's interior is filled with corrosive and poisonous vapors. Any creature exposed to these toxic fumes must make a DC 20 Fortitude save each round, or be blinded for Y rounds and take V acid damage and W [Str or Con?] damage. Even with a successful save, a victim is still dazzled for Y rounds and take Z acid damage. The save DC is Constitution-based.




Since it's per round it needn't be terribly nasty since it'll eventually add up.

How about:

*Toxic Fumes (Ex):* A shadowsponge's interior is filled with corrosive and  poisonous vapors. Any creature exposed to these toxic fumes must make a  DC 20 Fortitude save each round, or be blinded for 1d4 rounds and take 2d6  acid damage plus 1d4 Str damage and 1d4 Con damage. Even with a successful save, a  victim is still dazzled for 1d4 rounds and take 1d6 acid damage. The save DC  is Constitution-based.


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2010)

Updated.

We still need to figure out feats.


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## Cleon (Aug 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.




Its overrun check modifier should be +12, not +3 (4 from Str, 8 from size).



Shade said:


> We still need to figure out feats.




I know, I just couldn't think of any that were interesting.

Weapon Focus (slam)?

Mental Resistance?

Rapid Metabolism?


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2010)

Mental Resistance doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me, but WF (slam) and Rapid Metabolism work.  Iron Will or Lightning Reflexes could be ok, I guess, but they aren't terribly interesting.  Power Attack is another slightly boring option.


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## Cleon (Aug 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> Mental Resistance doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me, but WF (slam) and Rapid Metabolism work.  Iron Will or Lightning Reflexes could be ok, I guess, but they aren't terribly interesting.  Power Attack is another slightly boring option.




The original monster does lousy damage, so giving it Power Attack doesn't feel right.

Rapid Metabolism is also a bit of an edge case. If we want it to heal quickly I'd rather give it a SQ and use the feat for something that's more use in a fight, like Iron Will.

I've just realized we've given it an Ooze's good Fort saves instead of an Aberration's good Will saves! It should be:

Saves: Fort +9, Ref +0, Will +5

Hmm, looks like it needs Lightning Reflexes!

So how about:

*Feats:* Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus (slam)
*Saves:* Fort +9, Ref +2, Will +7

It's a boring selection but it does the job.


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2010)

I don't know that all feats really need to be combat-oriented, but what you have works.  If Shade decides to change something, that's ok, too.


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## Cleon (Aug 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> I don't know that all feats really need to be combat-oriented, but what you have works.  If Shade decides to change something, that's ok, too.




Well its got such weak saves in the first place it doesn't hurt giving it Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes.


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## Shade (Aug 23, 2010)

It doesn't strike me as someting that would have good reactions, so I'd rather stick with the horrible Reflex save.  The other feats appeal.  How about Endurance?   These things thrive in hostile environs, after all.


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## Cleon (Aug 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> It doesn't strike me as someting that would have good reactions, so I'd rather stick with the horrible Reflex save.  The other feats appeal.  How about Endurance?   These things thrive in hostile environs, after all.




Endurance is fine by me. It was next in the queue of "not very interesting but apposite feats".


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## Shade (Aug 24, 2010)

Updated.

Time for herd clouds...

*Herd Clouds*
Some small, dark shadowsponges have been observed to lead their fellows on long voyages in space and round them up into groups. These "herd clouds" have recently been studied with interest by several sages.
Herd clouds have been found to be Very intelligent (11-12) and possessed of unusually high morale: Champion (15-16). They have 8+8 Hit Dice and an XP Value of 3000.

They also have the ability to gather electrical charges, discharging these as weapons against other beings. A typical herd cloud can emit one 9d6 chain lightning attack and two forked 6d6 lightning bolts in a "day" (144-turn period). Mere contact with, or even passing through a 'charged' herd cloud will not attract such damage unless the cloud wishes to release its energy.

Some sages and alchemists believe that herd cloud essence can be harnessed in some way to guard against or generate electrical magical attacks, but experiments in this line have so far been shocking disasters.


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## Cleon (Aug 25, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Time for herd clouds...
> 
> ...




Well clearly they have better mental stats than regular Shadowsponges. 

+8 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom and Charisma for Intelligence 11, Wisdom 15, Charisma 7?

The 8+8 HD suggests a higher Constitution.

Give them Con 26 so they get +8 hits per die?

It says they're smaller and darker than a standard Shadowsponge but I wouldn't consider that enough to reduce their Size or Strength.

*Herd Cloud:* Str 18, Dex 6, Con 26, Int 11, Wis 15, Cha 7


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## freyar (Aug 25, 2010)

Those stats appeal.  

The lightning is probably pretty straightforward (SLAs?), though I'm not entirely sure what a "forked" lightning bolt means in D&D.  Want to do anything with the "gather electrical charges" in terms of electricity resistance or anything?


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2010)

We could probably interpret "forked" as either chain lighting or a twinned lightning bolt.


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## Cleon (Aug 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> We could probably interpret "forked" as either chain lighting or a twinned lightning bolt.




It has a separate chain lightning attack in the original going by the 1/day 9d6 chain lightning and 2/day forked lightning attacks.

I remember the 1st edition AD&D version of the _lightning bolt_ spell could be cast in 2 forms, a single bolt (8" long by ½" wide) and a double-width forked bolt (4" long by 1" wide) and I suspect the 2E version was the same, so I'd guess they meant it was the wide version.

So what to do, give its lightning a 10 ft. wide path or just two 5 ft. lines originating from the same point that cannot overlap?

I prefer the "two lines of lightning" option, since it's actually "forked".


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## Shade (Aug 26, 2010)

Added basic stats to underbar in Shadowsponge entry.

I like the "twinned" bolt as well.   Make these SLAs or Su abilities?


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## Cleon (Aug 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added basic stats to underbar in Shadowsponge entry.
> 
> I like the "twinned" bolt as well.   Make these SLAs or Su abilities?




I'd go for Supernatural, something like this...

*Lightning (Su):* A herd cloud can generate bolts of lightning. Twice per day it can produce two 400 ft. long lines of lightning, each doing 6d6 damage (DC 21 Reflex save for half damage). These "twinned" lightning bolts can not overlap. Once per day a herd cloud  can produce a lightning bolt that strikes a target within 400 ft. for 9d6 electricity damage (DC 21 Reflex save for half) and then forks out to hit all targets within 30 ft. of the initial target for 4d6 electricity damage (DC 21 Reflex save for half), in a similar fashion to a _chain lightning_ spell. The save DCs are Constitution based.


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## freyar (Aug 27, 2010)

I was going to suggest a normal SLA for the chain lightning and a unique Sp for the forked.  Something like

Forked Lightning (Sp): Twice per day, a herd cloud can release a forked lightning bolt consisting of two X ft long lines of electricty, each doing 6d6 damage.  A DC X Reflex save halves the damage, and the two lines cannot overlap.  This is the equivalent of a 5th? level spell.

The only problem with the Sp is that the DC will be a bit weak unless we boost the Cha.  On the other hand, DC 21 is probably too high at the likely CR.


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## Shade (Aug 27, 2010)

I think I prefer combining them into a single ability, and I'm comfortable with the higher DC.


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## freyar (Aug 28, 2010)

Let's do it then.


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## Cleon (Aug 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> I think I prefer combining them into a single ability, and I'm comfortable with the higher DC.




I prefer it as a single Supernatural ability too.


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## Shade (Aug 30, 2010)

Updated.

Skills: 20 ranks

Retain the same feats as the standard shadowsponge?


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## Cleon (Aug 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Skills: 20 ranks




The SJR1 Herd Cloud has 8 Hit Dice, not seven.

As for skills, I'd presume one of them is maxed-out Spot like a standard Shadowsponge, but I'm not sure what to use the rest of its ranks for.

Since they "herd" their fellows, something that's useful for leading shadowsponges seems in order.

*Diplomacy *to convince them?

*Survival *to find the best air sources and avoid space hazards?

*Knowledge *(something appropriate to wildspace) ?



Shade said:


> Retain the same feats as the standard shadowsponge?




Sounds fair to me.


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## freyar (Aug 30, 2010)

Whatever the appropriate Knowledge would be is probably the best option.  Or, instead of Diplomacy, we could use Handle Animal since the regular shadowsponges are only Int 3.


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## Shade (Aug 31, 2010)

An interesting idea!

The default Knowledge skill for space is...well, there isn't one in the core.  In the Spelljammer mini-setting from Polyhedron, it is Knowledge (space).


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## Cleon (Aug 31, 2010)

freyar said:


> Whatever the appropriate Knowledge would be is probably the best option.  Or, instead of Diplomacy, we could use Handle Animal since the regular shadowsponges are only Int 3.




I'd considered that, but under the Rules As Written you can only use Handle Animal on Animals and Magical Beasts.

While I wondered about giving them a SQ "can use Handle Animal checks on Shadowsponges", it seemed to make just as much sense having them employ Diplomacy on their dim relatives.


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2010)

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or group (1 plus 2-6 shadowsponges)?

Challenge Rating: 6?

Anything else?


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## Cleon (Sep 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Organization: Solitary or group (1 plus 2-6 shadowsponges)?
> 
> ...




I'd add a larger group:

*Organization:* Solitary, group (1 plus 2-6 shadowsponges) or herd (1-6 plus 5-40 shadowsponges)

How can they be called Herd Clouds if they don't have a herd?

Challenge Rating 6 seems reasonable.

Still think they need an extra Hit Dice, since the original Herd Clouds were 8+8 HD:

*Herd Cloud*
Huge Aberration
Hit Dice: 8d8+64 (100 hp)
Initiative: -2
Speed: Fly 30 ft. (6 squares)(average)
Armor Class: 11 (-2 Dex, -2 size, +5 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+18
Attack: Slam +9 melee (1d4+6)
Full Attack: Slam +9 melee (1d4+6)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Engulf, lightning, overrun, steal air, toxic fumes
Special Qualities: All-around vision, oozelike, sense air
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +0, Will +8
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 6, Con 26, Int 11, Wis 15, Cha 7
Skills: Diplomacy +9, Search +4, Spot +17
Feats: Endurance, Iron Will, Weapon Focus (slam)
Environment: Space
Organization: Solitary, group (1 plus 2-6 shadowsponges) or herd (1-6 plus 5-40 shadowsponges)
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always chaotic neutral
Advancement: 9-16 HD (Huge); 17-24 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: —

*Lightning (Su):* A herd cloud can generate bolts of lightning. Twice per day it can produce two 400-foot lines of lightning, each dealing 6d6 points of electricity damage. These "twinned" lightning bolts cannot overlap. Once per day a herd cloud can produce a lightning bolt that strikes a target within 400 feet for 9d6 points of electricity damage and then forks out to hit all targets within 30 feet of the initial target for 4d6 electricity damage, in a similar fashion to a chain lightning spell. A DC 22 Reflex save halves the damage of any bolt. The save DCs are Constitution-based.


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2010)

Yeah, I forgot to add that HD when you mentioned it upthread.

Updated.  Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, I forgot to add that HD when you mentioned it upthread.
> 
> Updated.  Finished?




Yup again!


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2010)

*Flame Swallow*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any (fire worlds only)
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVE TIME: Any
DIET: Special
INTEllIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-4 (3-12)
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 6, Fl 30
HIT DICE: 3
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Fire
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Fire resistance
MAGIC RESISTANCE: None
SIZE: S (5' wingspan)
MORALE: Unsteady (5)
XP VALUE: 75

Flame swallows are magnificent, graceful birds similar in appearance to terrestrial swallows, except that their wingspan is often five feet or more. They have the same forked tail as swallows. Their color is bright red on the back of the head and down the back, shading to brilliant orange on the upper surfaces of the wings and on the tail. Their bellies and the undersides of their wings are bright yellow. Their beaks are short, but sharply-pointed, and can deliver a nasty bite.

Flame swallows are always surrounded by a nimbus of bright orange fire. This nimbus extends to a range of about three feet from the body of the bird, and is hot enough to ignite inflammable materials on contact. Flame swallows love fire in all its forms, and enjoy darting through flames and playing in the hot, turbulent air above the surface of fire worlds. They can live equally as well in the superheated atmosphere or in the fiery body of such a world. They are exceptionally curious creatures, and will investigate anything out of the ordinary. If danger - or apparent danger - appears, however, they usually flee. The creatures enjoy starting fires so that they can then play in them, and are thus highly dangerous to spelljamming vessels approaching fire worlds. Such a ship will often attract several of the beautiful creatures who approach to investigate... and then probably ignite the ship's rigging.
Flame swallows are thought to have arisen on the Elemental Plane of Fire, but are extremely rare there. Some sages think that the creatures find fire worlds on the Prime Material Plane as more attractive homes than their native plane. Flame swallows can't survive in an environment colder than the environs of a fire world. If the ambient temperature drops below that of boiling water (212° F), a flame swallow suffers 1d6 points of damage each round that it's exposed to this "frigid" environment.

Combat: Flame swallows will almost never enter combat unless there's no alternative. If combat is necessary, they can deliver a damaging bite, but their main danger is the flame aura that surrounds them. This aura causes 1-8 points of damage to any creature not somehow immune to fire (save vs. breath weapon for half damage), and immediately ignites any flammable clothing or equipment exposed to it.

Flame swallows are totally immune to all fire- or heat-based attacks. Electrical attacks do normal damage, while cold-based attacks do triple damage.

Habitat/Society: Flame swallows congregate in small family-based flocks. Occasionally multiple flocks can be encountered, although this is very rare. Next to nothing is known about the reproductive behavior of flame swallows. Presumably they lay eggs, and - judging by the size of family flocks - presumably these eggs are few in number, or few are viable. Nobody knows, however, where the eggs are laid; no flame swallow nest has ever been discovered. The question is even more interesting because flame swallows have been reported on fire worlds with absolutely no solid surfaces on which those nests could be built. Some sages theorize that the creatures return to the Elemental Plane of Fire to lay and hatch their eggs, but this has yet to be confirmed. Further adding to the confusion, no obviously immature flame swallow has ever been seen.

Although not overly intelligent, flame swallows are amenable to training by creatures that can survive in the environment flame swallows need. Efreet on Ignia keep trained flame swallows as pets.

Ecology: Although flame swallows seem to prey on other fire-dwelling creatures such as fire bats when these other creatures are available, this seems to represent a preference rather than a necessity. Flame swallows seem to be able to survive without any such source of food. Sages theorize that they draw the energy they need to survive directly from their environment. This has yet to be confirmed, however.

Flame swallows in turn are preyed upon by other firedwelling creatures. (Fire bats and flame swallows seem particularly inimical, and generally attack each other on sight.)

Because of their ability to subsist on no food, there is much controversy over just what position flame swallows hold in the food chain.

Originally appeared in SJR4 Practical Planetology (1991).


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## Cleon (Sep 15, 2010)

Shade said:


> *Flame Swallow*




These look pretty straightforward.

Magical Beast (Fire)

Stats like a Giant Eagle reduced to Small size or a regular Eagle?

*Flame Swallow*
Small Magical Beast
  Hit Dice: 3d10+3 (18 hp)
  Initiative: +5
  Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 80 ft. (average)
  Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +5 Dex, +1 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 12
  Base Attack/Grapple: +3/-1
  Attack: Bite +9 melee (1d4 plus *X* fire)
  Full Attack: Bite +9 melee (1d4 plus *X* fire)
  Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
  Special Attacks: *Fire*
  Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., evasion, immunity to fire, low-light vision, vulnerability to cold
  Saves: Fort +5, Ref +7, Will +3
  Abilities: Str 10, Dex 21, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 14, Cha 10
  Skills: ?
  Feats: Alertness, Flyby Attack, Weapon Finesse (B) ?

  Environment: *?*
  Organization: *Solitary, family (2-4), or flock (3-12) ?
*
  Challenge Rating: *2?*
  Treasure: None
  Alignment: Always neutral

  Advancement: *4-6 HD (Small); 7-9 HD (Medium) ?*

  Level Adjustment: *+2 (cohort) ?*


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2010)

That's a good start.  Let's stick with the 1d8 fire mentioned in the original. I could also see reducing the bite damage to 1d3 like the original, as a swallow isn't a match for an eagle.

Added to Homebrews.

It looks like its fiery aura combines two of the magmin's abilities...

Combustion (Ex): Anyone a magmin touches must succeed on a DC 12 Reflex save or take an extra 1d8 points of fire damage as clothes ignite or armor becomes searing hot. The damage continues for another 1d4+2 rounds after the magmin’s last successful attack. Magmins can also ignite flammable materials with a touch. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Fiery Aura (Ex): Anyone within 20 feet of a magmin must succeed on a DC 12 Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of heat damage per round from the intense heat. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## Cleon (Sep 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> That's a good start.  Let's stick with the 1d8 fire mentioned in the original. I could also see reducing the bite damage to 1d3 like the original, as a swallow isn't a match for an eagle.
> 
> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> ...




Something like:

*Combustion Aura (Ex):* Anything within 5 ft. of a flame swallow takes 1d8 points of fire damage per round from the intense heat (DC *X* Reflex save for half damage). If a creature fails the Reflex save any flammable materials they are carrying will burst into flame. The save DCs are Constitution-based.


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## freyar (Sep 19, 2010)

That looks about right.

Since the original ones take triple damage from cold, do you want to do "extra-vulnerable" to cold or leave it as is?


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## Cleon (Sep 19, 2010)

freyar said:


> That looks about right.
> 
> Since the original ones take triple damage from cold, do you want to do "extra-vulnerable" to cold or leave it as is?




Frankly, it doesn't bother me either way. I suspect Shade's going to prefer standard vulnerability to cold, though.

If we do go for extra-vulnerable I'd prefer double damage over triple.


----------



## Shade (Sep 20, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Frankly, it doesn't bother me either way. I suspect Shade's going to prefer standard vulnerability to cold, though.




I'm so predictable.  

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm so predictable.
> 
> Updated.




I knew you were going to say that. 

Looks like we've only got descriptive stuff left.

_A magnificent bird surrounded by a nimbus of orange flame, shaped like a swallow but as big as an eagle, with a short, but sharply-pointed beak. Its feathers are bright  red on its back and the top of its head, shading to brilliant  orange on the upper surfaces of the wings and tail, and bright yellow on its underside._

Flame swallows are beautiful bird-like creatures that only live in superheated atmospheres. They love to play among flames and heat-turbulence, and often start fires just to have new flames to enjoy. Flame swallows occasionally eat smaller fire-dwelling creatures, but are able to live off fire alone.

These birds are exceptionally curious  creatures, and will investigate anything out of the ordinary, often by setting it alight. This inquisitive arson can be very dangerous to creatures who are not immune to fire, but it is unlikely the flame swallow means any harm — they are simply unfamiliar with creatures who can be burned by fire.

Flame swallows have a mutual enmity with fire bats, and the two species attack each other on sight.

A typical flame swallow is 3 feet long, half of which is tail-feathers, has a 5-foot wingspan, and weighs 5 pounds.

*Combat*
Flame swallows are not aggressive creatures, usually fleeing at the first sight of danger. If there's no other option they will swoop in to attack with their sharp beaks, but their most potent weapon is the flame aura that surrounds them, which burns any creature or object they come close to.


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## freyar (Sep 21, 2010)

That looks pretty much like it, then!


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## Cleon (Sep 21, 2010)

freyar said:


> That looks pretty much like it, then!




You're no fun, we're supposed to find things to argue about. 

Anyhow, its Fort save should be +4 (+3 from HD, +1 Con).

I'd also like to increase its aerial manoeuvrability from (average) to (good), since swallows are great aerobats.


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## Shade (Sep 21, 2010)

All good.  Updated.

I love "inquisitive arson", BTW.  

Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> All good.  Updated.
> 
> I love "inquisitive arson", BTW.
> 
> Finished?




Shouldn't we have something about them taking damage in environments under 100 C?

*Heat Dependency:* A flame swallow needs a very hot environment to survive, they start freezing for 1d6 lethal damage per minute as per exposure to extreme cold (see Cold Dangers in the _DMG_) when in any area that's colder than boiling water (212 F).


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2010)

Oh, right, forgot about that.  Yes, that looks about right.  Of course, it does limit their contact with PCs -- and creatures their fire aura might damage, since anyone in temperatures above boiling will need to have fire immunity or a pretty hefty resistance!


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2010)

Updated.  Finito?


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## Cleon (Sep 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finito?




I think so.


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2010)

Up next...a deadlier version of *ME*!

*Death Shade*
Climate/Terrain: Any (space or terrestrial)
Frequency: Very rare
Organization: Solitary
Active Cycle: Any
Diet: Special; see below
Intelligence: Semi-intelligent (2-4)
Treasure: Nil
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Number Appearing: 1
Armor Class: -8/as host
Movement: 9/as host
Hit Dice: 7/host's hp
THACO: Special
No. of Attacks: Special
Damage per Attack: Special; Infestation
Special Attacks: See below
Special Defenses: See below
Magic Resistance: 75%/as host
Size: n/a
Morale: Fearless (20)
XP Value: 2000

The death shade is an energy parasite that feeds on the life energy of dying creatures (any creature reduced to zero hp). To generate this "food," the death shade infests a host and periodically drives its host into a berserker rage.

Death shades, when encountered outside their hosts, appear as small, shifting wisps of smoke with vague outlines of aquiline eyes. When infesting a host, the death shade invisible, having entered another body. Persons and objects capable of viewing invisible creatures see the death shade as a gray mist which centers on the host's eyes. Under alignment detection, the death shade appears as a black "blight" on the host's alignment.

Combat: The death shade absorbs 1 energy level for every hit die of an opponent killed within a 10' radius, and can store up to 40 energy levels at one time. The death shade consumes these energy levels at a rate of 1 per day. For every stored energy level less than 40, there is a 3% cumulative chance per day that the death shade will cause its host to go berserk, killing the first available target. If numerous targets are presented, the death shade directs its host to pursue and attack the target which offers the least potential harm to its host. The host's rage ends after 40 energy levels have been absorbed by the death shade or no victims remain.

Death shades are rarely encountered without a host. Death shades prefer hosts which provide the greatest amount of food for it, i.e. a strong host like a fighter or a large carnivore, but will accept any host for its own survival. Death shades do not leave a host unless the host has been killed. If a PC becomes infested with a death shade, only a wish or limited wish can remove it from the PC's body. Amulets of Life Protection are the only items which prevent death shade infestation.

If the creature's current host is killed, it transfers out of the host body, infesting the strongest creature within 20 feet, and this creature becomes its new host. If it's unable to make such a transfer within 5 rounds of its host's death, the death shade dies. During this time of transfer, it can be attacked with normal weapons or spells.

The death shade and its host become catatonic when stored energy levels are at zero. The host and shade may remain catatonic for as many days as the host has Con points; after that, both host and shade die. If a lifeform comes within 10 feet of a catatonic host, the death shade rouses the host in 1d3 rounds in a berserk rage to kill the creature for its energy. After the rage subsides, the host must make a save vs. paralyzation or have permanent brain damage (subtract 1d3 points from the host's Intelligence).

Habitat/Society: Death shades can infest any corporeal, carbon-based life form, from small rodents to humans or demihumans, all the way up to celestial dragons. Creatures based of another elemental structure (storopers or magmen, for example) are immune to death shade infestation. Death shades can generate berserker rage no matter what the species of their host (therefore they can turn even the most timid creature into a raging killer).

Ecology: The death shade prefers to dwell where there are large concentrations of potential hosts and victims: among large herds of animals, or in the crowds of a city. Some sages believe that many of the senseless murders endemic to the inner city are caused by death shades.

Death shades reproduce as a by-product of feeding. After a death shade has absorbed life force from the death of 40 hit dice or levels of creatures within a 24-hour period, it splits into two death shades with 20 energy levels each. The second shade immediately transfers to any creature within 20'. If it can't make the transfer within 5 rounds, the second death shade dies.

Death shades have a basic telepathy which can only identify the presence of one death shade to another. Thus, death shades can detect each other's presence in a 20 foot radius and, if given a choice of targets during "feeding," will attack an uninfested creature before an infested host body.

Originally appeared in SJA2 - Skull & Crossbow (1992).


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## Cleon (Sep 23, 2010)

These sound like they may be related to Will-o'-Wisps, so I think we should use that monster as a model.


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2010)

Interesting!  I hadn't made that connection, but I can see it now.  They also remind me of energons (xag-ya/xeg-yi).


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2010)

Err, so what type are we going for?  I actually thought these sound something like outsiders, but that's not really Will-o-wispy.


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2010)

Energons are outsiders, and I feel that's a better fit than aberration (like wisps).   These things seem like they should be associated with the Negative Energy Plane.


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## Shade (Sep 24, 2010)

They also remind me of trillochs (MM3), which are also incorporeal outsiders.

Trilloch:  Small, 8 HD, Str -, Dex 19, Con 17, Int 11, Wis 18, Cha 18
Energon, Xeg-Yi:  Medium, 5 HD, Str -, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 18

The death shade falls between the two in HD.  Size isn't given, but I think Small or smaller is appropriate.  Since it's incorporeal, it has no impact on Strength.

Int is only 2-4, so the other mental stats might need to drop as well.  However, as incorporeal creatures (and ones that might rely on Cha-based DCs), perhaps Cha shouldn't drop?

The AC is ridiculously high, so even retaining a high Cha and obtaining a decent size bonus, it probably deserves a really high Dex (like the will-o'-wisp, which is 29).

Maybe Diminutive, Str -, Dex 29, Con 15, Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 18?

That gives an AC of 27 (+4 size, +9 Dex, +4 deflection), only 1 off a straight conversion.


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## freyar (Sep 24, 2010)

Just bump the Dex to 30, and it's on the money! 

I like Diminutive Outsider for these.  Do you think malevolence is a decent fit for the posession, or should we do something more subtle?


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## Shade (Sep 24, 2010)

Added the basics to Homebrews.

Malevolence might suffice (minus the ethereal bits).  Let's see how it develops.

The trilloch has a somewhat similar rage ability we may be able to adapt...

Control Rage (Sp): A trilloch can inspire rage (as a rage spell, but with a DC 18 Will save allowed to negate the effect) in all living creatures within 180 feet at will. Each creature gains a +4 morale bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, and a -4 penalty to AC. This effect is otherwise identical to a barbarian's rage ability, except that the subjects aren't fatigued at the end of the rage. If a creature has the rage ability and its bonuses when raging are greater than those given here, it can use the other bonuses instead. The save DC is Charisma-based. This is a mind-affecting compulsion effect.

An affected creature can end its rage by making a DC 19 Will save. The trilloch can end the rage for any number of creatures prematurely, without affecting other raging creatures. It can also end a rage caused by any other effect, such as a barbarian's rage ability, and in that case the barbarian would become fatigued. A trilloch always ends the rage for a creature who has gone beyond its normal hit points and into those granted by the rage, likely killing it.

This effect lasts for as long as the trilloch concentrates on it, plus 1 round per Hit Die of the creature.


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## Cleon (Sep 24, 2010)

I agree they're better as Outsiders than Aberrations.

Rather than increasing their Dex I'd suggest increasing their Cha to produce the target AC, since these things are almost personifications of rage I think they should have impressive Charismas (but little brains to direct them).

Also, why have you given them Con 15? I'd have thought they would have Con around 10, like Will-o'Wisps.

e.g.:

Diminutive, Str -, Dex 29, Con 11, Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 20


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## Shade (Sep 24, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Rather than increasing their Dex I'd suggest increasing their Cha to produce the target AC, since these things are almost personifications of rage I think they should have impressive Charismas (but little brains to direct them).




That works for me.



Cleon said:


> Also, why have you given them Con 15? I'd have thought they would have Con around 10, like Will-o'Wisps.




Because it was between xeg-yi's and trilloch's scores.  That said, I think Con 11 is fine, since they are dinky and have wicked-good AC.

Updated.


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## freyar (Sep 25, 2010)

You know, now that I think about it, what seems best is giving them a "merge with host" ability (see below) and then adapt the trilloch's control rage to only affect the host.

Merge with Host (Su): Once per round, a death shade can merge with a corporeal creature.  If the creature succeeds on a DC X Will save, the death shade is expelled and cannot attempt to merge with that creature for 24 hours.  On a failed save, the creature becomes the death shade's host and may be victimized by the death shade's control rage ability.  A death shade's host has a faint/moderate/strong? evil aura when examined with the detect evil spell.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Cleon (Sep 25, 2010)

freyar said:


> You know, now that I think about it, what seems best is giving them a "merge with host" ability (see below) and then adapt the trilloch's control rage to only affect the host.
> 
> Merge with Host (Su): Once per round, a death shade can merge with a corporeal creature.  If the creature succeeds on a DC X Will save, the death shade is expelled and cannot attempt to merge with that creature for 24 hours.  On a failed save, the creature becomes the death shade's host and may be victimized by the death shade's control rage ability.  A death shade's host has a faint/moderate/strong? evil aura when examined with the detect evil spell.  The save DC is Charisma-based.




So how do you separate the shade from its host?


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2010)

Good point.  Here's the original text:



> Death shades do not leave a host unless the host has been killed. If a PC becomes infested with a death shade, only a wish or limited wish can remove it from the PC's body. Amulets of Life Protection are the only items which prevent death shade infestation.
> 
> If the creature's current host is killed, it transfers out of the host body, infesting the strongest creature within 20 feet, and this creature becomes its new host.




I kind of think even limited wish is a bit much for the HD and likely CR, though.  I might allow dismissal or dispel evil to work.  As for prevention, I'm not sure what an amulet of life protection is in 3e terms, but we might consider protection from evil and/or magic circle vs evil, or things like consecrate or hallow.


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## Cleon (Sep 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> I kind of think even limited wish is a bit much for the HD and likely CR, though.  I might allow dismissal or dispel evil to work.  As for prevention, I'm not sure what an amulet of life protection is in 3e terms, but we might consider protection from evil and/or magic circle vs evil, or things like consecrate or hallow.




Yes, that's pretty similar to what I was thinking. Certainly we ought to have _protection from evil_ have its usual anti-possession effect.

I wouldn't use _consecrate_ or _hallow_, since these aren't Undead, but _dispel evil_ and its ilk are fine.


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## freyar (Sep 27, 2010)

Ok, to prevent: protection from evil, magic circle vs evil, and similar.
To remove: dispel evil, dismissal, banishment, and similar.

Sound good to everyone?


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## Shade (Sep 27, 2010)

Yep, sounds good!


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## freyar (Sep 27, 2010)

Help fill in the ?, people! 

Merge with Host (Su): Once per round, a death shade can merge with a corporeal creature. If the creature succeeds on a DC X Will save, the death shade is expelled and cannot attempt to merge with that creature for 24 hours. Protection from evil, magic circle vs evil, and similar magic prevent the death shade from merging with a protected host.  On a failed save, the creature becomes the death shade's host and may be victimized by the death shade's control rage ability. A death shade's host has a faint/moderate/strong? evil aura when examined with the detect evil spell. A death shade can be expelled by the host's death or by successful use of a dispel evil, dismissal, or banishment spell against the death shade.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Sep 27, 2010)

_Shade strong!  Hulk smash!_

But seriously...moderate seems a better fit.


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## freyar (Sep 28, 2010)

I'd even though a little about faint, so moderate is  good with me.


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## Cleon (Sep 29, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'd even though a little about faint, so moderate is  good with me.




Well the _rage_ spell is 2nd-3rd level, which creates a faint magic aura. The death shade seems to create a barbarian-level rage which as higher bonuses, so presumably it ought to be moderate.


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2010)

Moderate it is!

Updated.


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## freyar (Oct 1, 2010)

Well, then, anyone have a good idea about the rage?


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2010)

How about the trilloch's rage upthread?


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## Cleon (Oct 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> How about the trilloch's rage upthread?




I agree, the Trilloch's Control Rage is a good foundation:



> Control Rage (Sp): A trilloch can inspire rage (as a rage spell, but  with a DC 18 Will save allowed to negate the effect) in all living  creatures within 180 feet at will. Each creature gains a +4 morale bonus  to Strength and Constitution, a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, and a -4  penalty to AC. This effect is otherwise identical to a barbarian's rage  ability, except that the subjects aren't fatigued at the end of the  rage. If a creature has the rage ability and its bonuses when raging are  greater than those given here, it can use the other bonuses instead.  The save DC is Charisma-based. This is a mind-affecting compulsion  effect.
> 
> An affected creature can end its rage by making a DC 19 Will save. The  trilloch can end the rage for any number of creatures prematurely,  without affecting other raging creatures. It can also end a rage caused  by any other effect, such as a barbarian's rage ability, and in that  case the barbarian would become fatigued. A trilloch always ends the  rage for a creature who has gone beyond its normal hit points and into  those granted by the rage, likely killing it.
> 
> This effect lasts for as long as the trilloch concentrates on it, plus 1 round per Hit Die of the creature.




We can cut out some the text and I'm thinking it will only get a "partial will save".

Something like this:

*Inspire Rage (Su):* A death shade can fill its host with a violent fury, giving the host a +4 morale bonus  to Strength and Constitution, a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, and a -4  penalty to AC. A raging death shade host will run amok, randomly attacking everything it comes upon. If its target is a friend or ally it can redirect its attacks against another object, like a wall or enemy, if it succeeds at a DC X Will save. This effect is otherwise identical to a barbarian's rage  ability, except that the subjects aren't fatigued at the end of the  rage. If a creature has the rage ability and its bonuses when raging are  greater than those given here, it uses those other bonuses instead.  The save DC is Charisma-based. This is a mind-affecting compulsion  effect.


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## Shade (Oct 4, 2010)

That looks pretty good!

Updated.



> The death shade absorbs 1 energy level for every hit die of an opponent killed within a 10' radius, and can store up to 40 energy levels at one time.






> The death shade and its host become catatonic when stored energy levels are at zero. The host and shade may remain catatonic for as many days as the host has Con points; after that, both host and shade die. If a lifeform comes within 10 feet of a catatonic host, the death shade rouses the host in 1d3 rounds in a berserk rage to kill the creature for its energy. After the rage subsides, the host must make a save vs. paralyzation or have permanent brain damage (subtract 1d3 points from the host's Intelligence).




How do we want to handle these "energy levels"?   Give it something akin to energy drain, but only usable upon a dying creature?  Some combination of death knell and energy drain?



> Death shades reproduce as a by-product of feeding. After a death shade has absorbed life force from the death of 40 hit dice or levels of creatures within a 24-hour period, it splits into two death shades with 20 energy levels each. The second shade immediately transfers to any creature within 20'. If it can't make the transfer within 5 rounds, the second death shade dies.




Do we need an ability writeup for this, or will flavor text suffice?



> Death shades have a basic telepathy which can only identify the presence of one death shade to another. Thus, death shades can detect each other's presence in a 20 foot radius and, if given a choice of targets during "feeding," will attack an uninfested creature before an infested host body.




Once again, an ability or simplify like so?  "Death shades cannot speak, but can communicate telepathically with one another."


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## freyar (Oct 6, 2010)

I'd make it like death knell, but granting the death shade something like a positive level (but without benefits?).  Or introduce a new "counter" for them.  This is similar to what we did for blood warriors (I think) and the transient golem.

Probably flavor on the reproduction, though I wouldn't mind an ability.  Definitely put the telepathy in the language line like that.


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## Cleon (Oct 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> How do we want to handle these "energy levels"?   Give it something akin to energy drain, but only usable upon a dying creature?  Some combination of death knell and energy drain?
> 
> Do we need an ability writeup for this, or will flavor text suffice?
> 
> Once again, an ability or simplify like so?  "Death shades cannot speak, but can communicate telepathically with one another."






freyar said:


> I'd make it like death knell, but granting the  death shade something like a positive level (but without benefits?).  Or  introduce a new "counter" for them.  This is similar to what we did for  blood warriors (I think) and the transient golem.
> 
> Probably flavor on the reproduction, though I wouldn't mind an ability.   Definitely put the telepathy in the language line like that.




I'd prefer something like the energy drain approach.

*Death Drain (Su):* A death shade can drain the life force from a dying creature. It must hit the creature with a touch attack or one of its host's natural attacks. The dying creature is drained of 1 energy level and must succeed at a DC X Fortitude save or die. For every drained level the death shade gains 1 positive energy level for 24 hours. If a death shade gains Y positive energy levels it loses the positive energy levels and reproduces by splitting into two. One death shade remains in the host, the second death shade must quickly find its own host or die.


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## freyar (Oct 7, 2010)

Hmm, I think I'd have a few quibbles with that, but it's a good start.  
1) The original ability doesn't kill the creature, just draws energy from a dying one.  (This is a problem with death knell, too.)
2) It should work out to a 10 ft radius.  
3) I'm not sure that it should get a concrete benefit (though I'm not against that per se), but it needs to be dependent on having a positive level all the time.

How's this work?

Death Drain (Su): A death shade drains the life force from a dying creature. For every creature (HD of creature?) that dies within 10 ft of the death shade's host, the death shade gains 1 positive level for 24 hours. If a death shade gains Y positive levels, it reproduces by splitting into two, with each death shade retaining Y/2 positive levels. One death shade remains in the host, but the second death shade must quickly find its own host or die.  Additionally, a death shade is dependent on positive levels; if it has no positive levels, both the death shade and host fall unconscious.  Each day that the host is unconscious, the host/death shade must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 plus the number of days unconscious after the first) or both host and death shade die.  If a creature comes within 10 ft of an unconscious death shade and host, the death shade rouses the host in a controlled rage and must kill the creature to drain its energy or die in X rounds.  If the death shade gains a positive level, both it and the host survive, but the host must make a DC Z Fortitude/Will? save or take 1d3 points of Intelligence drain.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Some of that is pretty much taken from the original write-up, and some is modified.  I'm not married to the specific mechanics, but I'd like to see that basic flavor retained.


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## Cleon (Oct 9, 2010)

freyar said:


> Hmm, I think I'd have a few quibbles with that, but it's a good start.




Quibble away.



freyar said:


> 1) The original ability doesn't kill the creature, just draws energy from a dying one.  (This is a problem with death knell, too.)
> 2) It should work out to a 10 ft radius.
> 3) I'm not sure that it should get a concrete benefit (though I'm not against that per se), but it needs to be dependent on having a positive level all the time.
> 
> ...




I still think it should apply a negative energy level to victims of its death drain, just to respect conservation of energy.

I'd rather it consumed all the positive levels in the process of reproduction, just to save on book keeping.

We'd better split the revised version into two (or more) paragraphs.

How's this:

*Death Drain (Su):* A death shade drains the life force from a dying  creature. For every creature that dies within 10 ft of a death shade, the death shade gains 1 positive level, it loses these positive levels at a rate of 1 level per 24  hours. If a death shade gains *X* positive levels, it reproduces by  splitting, this process consumes all the death shade's positive levels and leaves two full-strength death shades.  One death shade remains in the host, the second death shade must  quickly find its own host or die.

A death shade is  dependent on positive levels; if it goes for more than *Y* days with no positive levels, both the  death shade and host fall unconscious.  Each day that the host is  unconscious, the host/death shade must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 plus  the number of days unconscious after the first) or both host and death  shade die.  If a living creature comes within 10 ft. of the unconscious death  shade and host, the death shade rouses the host in a controlled rage and  must kill the creature to drain its energy or die in *Z* rounds.  If the  death shade gains a positive level, both it and the host survive, but  the host must make a DC *W* Fortitude/Will save or take 1d3 points of  Intelligence drain.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Oct 12, 2010)

The reason I'd had the positive levels split was because the original had them catatonic any time they have 0 positive levels.  But this works for me if we set Y=1.  What do you think about Fort vs Will for the save against Int drain?


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## Cleon (Oct 13, 2010)

freyar said:


> The reason I'd had the positive levels split was because the original had them catatonic any time they have 0 positive levels.  But this works for me if we set Y=1.  What do you think about Fort vs Will for the save against Int drain?




One day's fine.

As for the save, I'm not committed either way, but I guess Will makes slightly more sense.

We still need values for X, and Z.

Revising...

*Death Drain (Su):* A death shade drains the life force from a  dying  creature. For every creature that dies within 10 ft of a death  shade, the death shade gains 1 positive level, it loses these positive  levels at a rate of 1 level per 24  hours. If a death shade gains *X*  positive levels, it reproduces by  splitting, this process consumes all  the death shade's positive levels and leaves two full-strength death  shades.  One death shade remains in the host, the second death shade  must  quickly find its own host or die.

A death shade is  dependent on positive levels; if it goes for more than 1 day with no positive levels, both the  death shade and host fall  unconscious.  Each day that the host is  unconscious, the host/death  shade must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 plus  the number of days  unconscious after the first) or both host and death  shade die.  If a  living creature comes within 10 ft. of the unconscious death  shade and  host, the death shade rouses the host in a controlled rage and  must  kill the creature to drain its energy or die in *Z* rounds.  If the  death shade gains a positive level, both it and the host survive, but  the host must make a DC 18 Will save or take 1d3 points of  Intelligence drain.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Oct 14, 2010)

Well, the original text would suggest X=40, but that's an awful lot of bonuses (and recall that the original mechanic didn't grant any bonuses).  

For Z, do you fancy something fixed or random?  I could go with something like 4 or 1d6 maybe.


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## Cleon (Oct 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, the original text would suggest X=40, but that's an awful lot of bonuses (and recall that the original mechanic didn't grant any bonuses).
> 
> For Z, do you fancy something fixed or random?  I could go with something like 4 or 1d6 maybe.




I'd go for 10 positive levels, 1 more than its average HD.

As for Z, something random would be my preference.

2d4 rounds plus host's Constitution modifier?


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## freyar (Oct 18, 2010)

10 positive levels and 2d4 plus Con modifier both sound fine.

Death Drain (Su): A death shade drains the life force from a dying creature. For every creature that dies within 10 ft of a death shade, the death shade gains 1 positive level, it loses these positive levels at a rate of 1 level per 24 hours. If a death shade gains 10 positive levels, it reproduces by splitting, this process consumes all the death shade's positive levels and leaves two full-strength death shades. One death shade remains in the host, the second death shade must quickly find its own host or die.

A death shade is dependent on positive levels; if it goes for more than 1 day with no positive levels, both the death shade and host fall unconscious. Each day that the host is unconscious, the host/death shade must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 plus the number of days unconscious after the first) or both host and death shade die. If a living creature comes within 10 ft. of the unconscious death shade and host, the death shade rouses the host in a controlled rage and must kill the creature to drain its energy or die in a number of rounds equal to 2d4+ the host's Constitution modifier. If the death shade gains a positive level, both it and the host survive, but the host must make a DC 18 Will save or take 1d3 points of Intelligence drain. The Will save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Oct 18, 2010)

Looks pretty good.  Updated.


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## Cleon (Oct 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Looks pretty good.  Updated.




So skills and feats next.

Listen, Spot, Tumble would be useful methinks. What do you fancy for the other skill?

Ability Focus for Merge With Host, since it's vital for its survival? Maybe Ability Focus (incite host) as well?

Or we could use some of a Will o' Wisps feats - Alertness, Blind-Fight, Dodge, Improved Initiative and Weapon Finesse (B).

How about this:

*Feats:* Ability Focus (merge with host), Blind-Fight (B), Dodge, Improved Initiative


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2010)

That all looks good, and I'd recommend Hide for the remaining skill.

Updated.

Did we ever decide on damage for its incorporeal touch attack?


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## Cleon (Oct 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> That all looks good, and I'd recommend Hide for the remaining skill.




I'd thought about Hide, but the problem is it's only got a few rounds to find a host before it dies so wouldn't it be rushing about looking for a victim rather than lurking out of sight in the hopes one would wander by?

Well, I suppose it'd help it sneak up on a prospective host, so Hide it is.



Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Did we ever decide on damage for its incorporeal touch attack?




I'd forgotten we'd decided to give it one!

Maybe a bit of Wisdom damage, anything from 1 point to 1d4 Wis?


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2010)

Hmmm...I'm not so sure about Wis.  While I realize it would help with all the Will saves, that's usually for madness-inducing monsters.  This guy is more of a vitality sapper, so maybe Str?  Or just plain ol' negative energy damage?


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## Cleon (Oct 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Hmmm...I'm not so sure about Wis.  While I realize it would help with all the Will saves, that's usually for madness-inducing monsters.  This guy is more of a vitality sapper, so maybe Str?  Or just plain ol' negative energy damage?




Contrariwise, they induce homicidal mania in their host so they are madness-inducing monsters. So I was thinking their touch could cause an instantaneous feeling of murderous rage which corrodes the victim's will.


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2010)

That does make sense.  

Regardless of the type of ability damage we use, I think it should only deal a single point, so as not too discourage that attack mode over its merge n' rage.


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## Cleon (Oct 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> That does make sense.
> 
> Regardless of the type of ability damage we use, I think it should only deal a single point, so as not too discourage that attack mode over its merge n' rage.




Well it can't feed by using its touch attach, and there's that whole "get into a host or die" thing, so they're already pretty encouraged to merge 'n rage!

1d2 or 1d3 Wisdom damage would suit me better.


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2010)

Make it 1d2 Wis as a compromise.


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## Cleon (Oct 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> Make it 1d2 Wis as a compromise.




That'd be alright by me.


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## Shade (Oct 25, 2010)

Fair enough.   Updated.

Organization: Solitary or x

Challenge Rating: 6-7?  Despite having less HD, it is at least as deadly (if not deadlier) than a CR 6 will-o'-wisp.

Advancement: None?  Will an Advancement screw with its death drain growth and splitting?


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## Cleon (Oct 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> Fair enough.   Updated.




 We seem to be missing a couple of things:



> If it’s unable to make such a transfer within 5 rounds of its   host’s death, the death shade dies. During this time of transfer, it can   be attacked with normal weapons or spells.



Firstly, we've  forgotten to put a time limit on its survival outside a host. I'd  suggest adding another SQ:

*Dependency on Host (Ex):* A death shade dies can only survive outside a host for a number of rounds equal to half its Constitution.

 Secondly, the "During this time of transfer, it can  be attacked with  normal weapons or spells" suggests that it isn't Incorporeal.



Shade said:


> Organization: Solitary or x




Just solitary methinks.



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 6-7?  Despite having less HD, it is at least as deadly (if not deadlier) than a CR 6 will-o'-wisp.




Well their CR is more a function of whatever unfortunate they're possessing than their own lethality. CR 5 feels enough to me.



Shade said:


> Advancement: None?  Will an Advancement screw with its death drain growth and splitting?




I'm fine with no advancement.


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## Cleon (Oct 26, 2010)

Oh, and do we want to do something with:



> Persons and objects capable of viewing invisible creatures see the death shade as a gray mist which centers on the host’s eyes


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Firstly, we've  forgotten to put a time limit on its survival outside a host. I'd  suggest adding another SQ:
> 
> *Dependency on Host (Ex):* A death shade dies can only survive outside a host for a number of rounds equal to half its Constitution.




That seems reasonable.



Cleon said:


> Secondly, the "During this time of transfer, it can  be attacked with  normal weapons or spells" suggests that it isn't Incorporeal.




Rather than add extra complications to this already-loaded creature, I'd recommend we just omit that bit.



Cleon said:


> Just solitary methinks.




Sounds good.  They have no reason to organize.



Cleon said:


> Well their CR is more a function of whatever unfortunate they're possessing than their own lethality. CR 5 feels enough to me.




The Wis damage alone makes 'em deadlier than a will-o'-wisp, though.   I'm sure the wisp is over-CR'ed, but I'm not comfortable dropping these things below 'em.



Cleon said:


> I'm fine with no advancement.




Sounds good.



Cleon said:


> Oh, and do we want to do something with:




Sure...but what?


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## Cleon (Oct 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> Rather than add extra complications to this already-loaded creature, I'd recommend we just omit that bit.
> 
> The Wis damage alone makes 'em deadlier than a will-o'-wisp, though.   I'm sure the wisp is over-CR'ed, but I'm not comfortable dropping these things below 'em.




I'm OK with incorporeal and CR6.



Shade said:


> > Persons and objects capable of viewing invisible creatures see the  death shade as a gray mist which centers on the host’s eyes
> 
> 
> 
> Sure...but what?




How about a Spot or Sense Motive check to detect when one's merged with a host?

e.g.:

*Merge with Host (Su):* Once per round, a death shade can merge with a  corporeal creature. If the creature succeeds on a DC 20 Will save, the  death shade is expelled and cannot attempt to merge with that creature  for 24 hours. _Protection from evil_, _magic circle versus evil_, and similar  magic prevent the death shade from merging with a protected host. On a  failed save, the creature becomes the death shade's host and may be  victimized by the death shade's control rage ability.  The save DC is Charisma-based. 

The death shade appears as a near-invisible gray mist which centers on the host's eyes, other creatures can detect the death shade's presence in a host with a *DC40?* Spot or Sense Motive check, the check is *DC20?* if the observer can _see invisible_. A death shade's  host has a moderate evil aura when examined with the _detect evil_ spell. A  death shade can be expelled by the host's death or by successful use of  a _dispel evil_, _dismissal_, or _banishment_ spell against the death shade.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2010)

How about DC 20 and 30?  A DC 30 will normally let you spot an invisible creature who is holding still, while a DC 40 check can spot an invisible inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature.


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## Cleon (Oct 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> How about DC 20 and 30?  A DC 30 will normally let you spot an invisible creature who is holding still, while a DC 40 check can spot an invisible inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature.




I was liking the eye-mist being "near-invisible" rather than actually invisible, so don't mind the lower DC 30.

How about DC15 for the _see invisibility_ assisted check, since the original description suggests it's pretty obvious to such creatures?


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2010)

I like that.  Updated.  

Does anything need fixing?


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## Cleon (Oct 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> I like that.  Updated.
> 
> Does anything need fixing?




The economy?

While you're working on that, the Host Dependent wording of "A death shade dies can only survive outside a host for a number of rounds equal to half its Constitution" is awry.

How about:

*Host Dependent:* A death shade can not survive long without a host. It will die unless it can merge with a new host within a number of rounds equal to half its Constitution.

I'm also wondering about adding "Any land and wildspace" for the environment, since the original was "any (space or terrestrial)".


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2010)

Cleon said:


> The economy?




If only I could.  



Cleon said:


> While you're working on that, the Host Dependent wording of "A death shade dies can only survive outside a host for a number of rounds equal to half its Constitution" is awry.
> 
> How about:
> 
> *Host Dependent:* A death shade can not survive long without a host. It will die unless it can merge with a new host within a number of rounds equal to half its Constitution.




Looks good.



Cleon said:


> I'm also wondering about adding "Any land and wildspace" for the environment, since the original was "any (space or terrestrial)".




I'd rather put in an "In Spelljammer" underbar.  

Updated.  Finished?


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## Cleon (Oct 31, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'd rather put in an "In Spelljammer" underbar.
> 
> Updated.  Finished?




You thanatoid namesake looks complete.


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## Shade (Nov 1, 2010)

Thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 posts.

See continuation here.


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