# Mithral bucklers: A Bard's/Rogue's/Sorcerer's/Wizard's best friend...



## Jack Haggerty (Jun 10, 2002)

Has anybody else thought of this?

Using some mithral we found during an adventure, my Halfling Rogue/Abjurer had a Mithral Buckler +1 made for himself.

Now, the nice thing about a mithral buckler (or a mithral small shield, though I'd rather have the use of the off-hand, than the ability to bash with a shield), is that it has no arcane spell failure, no armor check penalty and no max dex penalty.

Anyone, even arcane spellcasters, or those who are not proficient in shield use can use one without penalty.  Not to mention that mithral items are automatically considered Masterwork, and therefore can easily be enchanted.

Aside from the rarity of mithral, and the inherent cost of building with it, are there any downsides I'm missing here?


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## Crothian (Jun 10, 2002)

Actually, Monte said that was done on purpose I think.  Personally, it can be helpful, but I think the restrictions on rarity and cost to make it macical is all the restriction you need.  The only think I can think of is do you need one or two hands to cast?


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## Valicor (Jun 10, 2002)

its pretty useful for an additional +6 AC, provided you enhancet to +5.  The only thing that is bad, is if your spell caster draws a weapon, he's either gonna have to give up his ac, bonus or drop is weapo to cast.

Still a very good item, added in with those bracers of armour, and high dex.


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## kreynolds (Jun 10, 2002)

Crothian said:
			
		

> *The only think I can think of is do you need one or two hands to cast? *




One.


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## Jack Haggerty (Jun 10, 2002)

I'd always assumed one free hand to cast a spell...  Not that that it's official, but in practice, every Wizard has cast a spell with something held in one hand, be it dagger, staff, crossbow, wand, potion, torch or blind kobold.

I was just a little surprised that I haven't seen more Rogue or Wizard-types using them.  I haven't seen it at all, though there's plenty of people with mithral chain shirts running around.


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## Jack Haggerty (Jun 10, 2002)

Valicor said:
			
		

> *its pretty useful for an additional +6 AC, provided you enhancet to +5.  The only thing that is bad, is if your spell caster draws a weapon, he's either gonna have to give up his ac, bonus or drop is weapo to cast.
> 
> Still a very good item, added in with those bracers of armour, and high dex. *




What does it take to transfer a weapon to a different hand?  The buckler hand can hold and even wield a weapon.  For that matter, if you can weild a weapon in your off-hand buckler hand, why not cast a spell with the buckler hand?


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## Valicor (Jun 10, 2002)

The reason it isn't as common place is, It is not a popular or well known piece of information.  Everyone knows about Mithril Shirts, from 2nd edition Elven Chain.  As people spend more time in 3e idea's liek this one will become more well known, and common place though, I bet


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## Jack Haggerty (Jun 10, 2002)

I'm starting to imagine an elite band of elven Bladesinger/Arcane Archers armed with longswords, longbows and mithral bucklers.

Hoo Haw!


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## Valicor (Jun 10, 2002)

Jack Haggerty said:
			
		

> *
> 
> What does it take to transfer a weapon to a different hand?  *




Quick Draw?, Move Evuivelent liek drawign a weapon? not sure



			
				Jack Haggerty said:
			
		

> *The buckler hand can hold and even wield a weapon.  For that matter, if you can weild a weapon in your off-hand buckler hand, why not cast a spell with the buckler hand? *




To cast from the buckler hand, you would have to shift from using it as defensive (sheild) to offensive (casting).  So you would have to give ac up, you could reinstate AC next roudn though.


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## Dr. Zoom (Jun 10, 2002)

Valicor said:
			
		

> *Still a very good item, added in with those bracers of armour, and high dex. *



The bracers of armor will not stack with the buckler.  Both are armor bonuses.  The only armor bonuses that stack with each other are shields and suits of armor.


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## Jack Haggerty (Jun 10, 2002)

Valicor said:
			
		

> *To cast from the buckler hand, you would have to shift from using it as defensive (sheild) to offensive (casting).  So you would have to give ac up, you could reinstate AC next roudn though. *




I expected that, but I was thinking of the, "An off-hand weapon can be used, but a -1 penalty on attack rolls is imposed because of the extra weight on your arm," when using a buckler...

Should there be a similar penalty to casting with that hand?...  Not that I really want one.


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## Valicor (Jun 10, 2002)

Jack Haggerty said:
			
		

> *I'm starting to imagine an elite band of elven Bladesinger/Arcane Archers armed with longswords, longbows and mithral bucklers.
> 
> Hoo Haw! *




Actually thats something I was wondering about, and wanted to ask for awhile.  Say you have quick draw, and using a longsword you also take ambi-dexterity and two-weapon fightining, could you switch to your off-hand and continue to attack?  I know it says for all those bladsinger abilities you can only have a longsword in your hand nothing else in the other hand to use the abilities (so you still wouldn't be able to use that sheild ), bt coudl you do your base 4 attacks + your blade singer attack, then switch to off hand, with quickdraw using same lognsword in off hand, and continue attacking, then switch back to main hand, for haste?


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## Valicor (Jun 10, 2002)

Jack Haggerty said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I expected that, but I was thinking of the, "An off-hand weapon can be used, but a -1 penalty on attack rolls is imposed because of the extra weight on your arm," when using a buckler...
> 
> Should there be a similar penalty to casting with that hand?...  Not that I really want one.  *




I'm pretty sure you don't take a negative to casting, you just loose the ac bonus, till yoru next turn.  If you were hasted though, you could use the haste action to up the shield again isntead of a second spell.


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## Caliban (Jun 10, 2002)

Jack Haggerty said:
			
		

> *Has anybody else thought of this?
> *




Yep.

*



			Using some mithral we found during an adventure, my Halfling Rogue/Abjurer had a Mithral Buckler +1 made for himself.
		
Click to expand...


*
That's nice for him.  

*



			Now, the nice thing about a mithral buckler (or a mithral small shield, though I'd rather have the use of the off-hand, than the ability to bash with a shield), is that it has no arcane spell failure, no armor check penalty and no max dex penalty.
		
Click to expand...


*
And does not stack with _Mage Armor_ or *Bracers of Armor*

*



			Anyone, even arcane spellcasters, or those who are not proficient in shield use can use one without penalty.  Not to mention that mithral items are automatically considered Masterwork, and therefore can easily be enchanted.
		
Click to expand...


*
Yeah, they are pretty nice, if you don't use Bracers of Armor or the _mage armor_ spell. 

*



			Aside from the rarity of mithral, and the inherent cost of building with it, are there any downsides I'm missing here?
		
Click to expand...


*
The fact that a *mithril buckler +3* won't stack with _mage armor_.  Using one of them gives you +4 armor bonus to your AC, and using both of them still only gives you +4 armor bonus to your AC.   The buckler with stack with the armor bonus from worn armor though.

Generally it's not that great for a pure spellcaster, but it's great for rogues/bards, or those rare arcane spellcasters who actually do wear armor. 

Even so, I have a wizard who eventually plans on getting a +1 Mithril Buckler of Heavy Fortification.   It won't increase his AC any, but will still prevent crits and sneak attacks.


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## Valicor (Jun 10, 2002)

I forgot that Bracers were providing the same bonus type as the +1-+5 magical ratio bonus on a sheild.  Thxs for settign that straight.


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## Jack Haggerty (Jun 10, 2002)

Dr. Zoom said:
			
		

> *
> The bracers of armor will not stack with the buckler.  Both are armor bonuses.  The only armor bonuses that stack with each other are shields and suits of armor.   *




Are you sure?

I was under the impression that suits of armor/other armor bonuses don't stack, but a single shield armor bonus can stack with any other armor bonus...  Catch my meaning?

For example, my halfling rogue wizard currently has an AC of 18...  +1 size, +4 Dex, +1 ring of Prot. (deflection), +2 Mithral buckler +1.  Now if he casts Mage Armor, that +4 should stack normally with the magic buckler, no?  Plus he could cast Shield, and have that stack, since that provides cover, instead of a straight out AC bonus.

Heh...  Totally buffed up, that would be an AC of 29!  Yowza!


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## Valicor (Jun 10, 2002)

Anyone got a answer for my quickdraw question?


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## Jack Haggerty (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Re: Mithral bucklers: A Bard's/Rogue's/Sorcerer's/Wizard's best friend...*



			
				Caliban said:
			
		

> And does not stack with _Mage Armor_ or *Bracers of Armor*




Why not?

The bonuses for magic armor and shields are labeled as "Enhancement bonuses", not "Armor bonuses".


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## Jack Haggerty (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Mithral bucklers: A Bard's/Rogue's/Sorcerer's/Wizard's best friend...*

Blah...  double post.


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## Dr. Zoom (Jun 10, 2002)

Jack Haggerty said:
			
		

> Are you sure?
> 
> I was under the impression that suits of armor/other armor bonuses don't stack, but a single shield armor bonus can stack with any other armor bonus...  Catch my meaning?



I am sure.  Armor bonuses do not stack.  The exception is shields with suits of armor.  Check out the PH, page 104, top of the page under Armor Bonus. 



> For example, my halfling rogue wizard currently has an AC of 18...  +1 size, +4 Dex, +1 ring of Prot. (deflection), +2 Mithral buckler +1.  Now if he casts Mage Armor, that +4 should stack normally with the magic buckler, no?  Plus he could cast Shield, and have that stack, since that provides cover, instead of a straight out AC bonus.



Your halflings new AC with mage armor is 20.  The mage armor spell will not stack with the buckler.  The shield spell will stack with all those things, however, bringing your total AC to 27, at least for one side of the battlefield.


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## Xarlen (Jun 10, 2002)

Pretty sure.

Would you allow Mage Armor and Bracers of Armor to stack? They both offer an armor bonus. Think of Mage Armor as a tangible force that takes the place that Armor would take up. Thus, you can't wear armor over or under it. HOWEVER, you *Can* cast it, and benefit from it when incorperal creatures try to get you, since your regular armor bonus from armor doesn't stack (except magical bonuses).

Page 104 PHB, top right hand collum. 



> Bonuses from armor and a shield stack. This bonus is an armor bonus, so it does not stack with other effects that increase your armor bonus, such as mage armor spell or braers of armor.


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## Valicor (Jun 10, 2002)

Mage Armour is the requirment spell to make the item.  Thats one reason why they can't stack.  They both provide the same type bonus.


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## Xarlen (Jun 10, 2002)

I know. I was trying to make a point.


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## Shard O'Glase (Jun 10, 2002)

Yeah but armor and shields both provide an armor bonus.  Personally I think they just screwed up here.  It is really lame that shields provide an armor bonus that stacks with some armor bonuses but not others.  They should of either said shields provide a shield bonus, or some other ruling instead of this wierd excpetion to the rule thing.


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## Caliban (Jun 10, 2002)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> *Yeah but armor and shields both provide an armor bonus.  Personally I think they just screwed up here.  It is really lame that shields provide an armor bonus that stacks with some armor bonuses but not others.  They should of either said shields provide a shield bonus, or some other ruling instead of this wierd excpetion to the rule thing. *




If they "screwed up" they did it on purpose.  I went to great lengths to verify this during the first big debate, and we eventually heard from all the original game designers via e-mail, and they all agreed that that is how it works.  (In the original huge debate about this, we eventually got confirmations from Sean Reynolds, Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, and Skip Williams.)


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## Iku Rex (Jun 10, 2002)

Mithral  Buckler + Magic Vestment = High level goodness.

A 15th level Cleric can easily spare a couple of Magic Vestment spells. This spell can be cast on the Wizard's clothes and on the Wizard's buckler, for a total armor bonus of +11.


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## Jens (Jun 10, 2002)

> Even so, I have a wizard who eventually plans on getting a +1 Mithril Buckler of Heavy Fortification. It won't increase his AC any, but will still prevent crits and sneak attacks.



As Caliban suggested above, I think the enchanted mithril bucklers most useful to an arcane caster are the ones with special abilities. The AC is better provided by Bracers and some of the enchantments are hard to come by in other ways.


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## Ziggy (Jun 10, 2002)

Iku Rex said:
			
		

> *Mithral  Buckler + Magic Vestment = High level goodness.
> 
> A 15th level Cleric can easily spare a couple of Magic Vestment spells. This spell can be cast on the Wizard's clothes and on the Wizard's buckler, for a total armor bonus of +11. *




Or you could make your clothes magical using Craft Magic Arms and Armor. These clothes have (roughly) the same cost as Bracers of Armor, and most magi don't use the armor slot anyway. 

.Ziggy


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## Zhure (Jun 10, 2002)

I htink the only place where it mentions clothes as armor is in the Magic Vestment spell where it says "for purposes of this spell, clothes are treated as armor..." which weakly implies that the normal condition is the reverse and clothes aren't armor. For that reason I wouldn't allow Craft Magic Arms & Armor to be used for non-armor.

I don't think it'd be horribly overpowering though.
Greg


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## jontherev (Jun 10, 2002)

Jens said:
			
		

> *As Caliban suggested above, I think the enchanted mithril bucklers most useful to an arcane caster are the ones with special abilities. The AC is better provided by Bracers and some of the enchantments are hard to come by in other ways. *




I concur.  For example, Animated shields are perfect for TWFing rogues/fighters or anyone who needs to use both hands in combat.  Caliban's idea is a good one, though expensive.


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## Jack Haggerty (Jun 10, 2002)

So now...  What about magical armor and magical shields stacking?

If I've got a leather armor +2, a large shield +2, and a Dex of 10...  Should my AC be 16 or 18?  Those two +2 bonuses are the labeled the same and made with the same spell, so they shouldn't stack.

But they do.

I'm really trying to be a jerk here, I just want to make damn sure of my options.  If I can't use Mage Armor with an enchanted buckler, that means I have an extra 1st level spell slot to use on a different spell, and I don't waste money on a Wand of Mage Armor.

Caliban, you wouldn't happen to remember the reasoning the designers gave for those bonuses not stacking, would you?  I'm looking for something a little more concrete than, "Soandso says so."


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## IceBear (Jun 10, 2002)

Jack, trust me as a person who's been on these boards since Eric's site, this has been debated to death in the past.  Yes, shields stack with *physical* suits of armor.  No, they don't stack with other armor.  The designers basically said they did this so it conforms better with 2E and so that you can't do things like has been thought about on these boards - mithril buckler +5 with bracers of armor +8 - and end up with spellcaster and rogues with better AC than fighters.

I had a house rule that shields provided a shield bonus, and not an armor bonus, so spellcasters in my campaign could stack shields with mage armor and bracers of armor.  However, in my low magic campaign, this isn't as likely to be abused as in a standard one.  If I was playing in a different campaign, I'd not allow it either.

[Edit] Even Karinsdad who felt that they should stack eventually came to agree that they shouldn't because of things that happened in his campaign with it getting unbalancing.

IceBear


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## laiyna (Jun 10, 2002)

*side question*

just a small question,

Can I enchant a buckler with "invurnability" and if I can, does it counts to everybody attacking me or the person to who I use the buckler?

A buckler with the invurnability would make a very good item for a mage, prob even better then bracers of defence +8.

laiyna


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## Dr. Zoom (Jun 10, 2002)

Jack Haggerty said:
			
		

> *So now...  What about magical armor and magical shields stacking?
> 
> If I've got a leather armor +2, a large shield +2, and a Dex of 10...  Should my AC be 16 or 18?  Those two +2 bonuses are the labeled the same and made with the same spell, so they shouldn't stack.
> 
> But they do.*



Yes, they do.  Suits of armor and shields are the exception, not the rule.  Your AC here would be 18.  You get a +4 armor bonus from the +2 leather and a +4 armor bonus from the +2 large shield (enhancement bonuses count as armor bonuses here).  Normally armor bonuses do not stack, but since these two armor bonuses come from a suit of armor and a shield, they stack.  If you cast mage armor on yourself, you would get another +4 armor bonus, which does not stack with either the armor or the shield, because they are the same bonus.  The mage armor spell would count against incorporeal sources, however, while your armor and shield would not.


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## Jack Haggerty (Jun 10, 2002)

IceBear said:
			
		

> *Jack, trust me as a person who's been on these boards since Eric's site, this has been debated to death in the past.*




That's great.  Trust me as someone who's been here since Eric's board...  I haven't yet seen the debate.  Certainly not within the last year.  The "shield" bonus that you uise is a much better idea.  There's no need for "exceptions" and it fits perfectly...  If fact, you could call a spell like _Shield_ a shield bonus, instead of cover, and reduce a little of the potintial abuse.

Anyway...  I don't really care whether or they do stack, I'm just trying to find a good reason for it, substantiated by something printed in the rulebooks.  If the designers meant it to be that way, why didn't they make it a little more clear in the books?

It just gets a little frustrating to continually hear...

"Can I do this?"

"No."

"Why not?  The rules don't say I can't..."

"Because *They* said you can't."

Laiyna - Bucklers give you a +1 to AC against everyone who attacks you...  You no longer have to pick a single opponent.  So any Special Ability you put on the buckler affects all enemies attack you.  However, Invulnerability is a Special Ability you can only put on Armor, not Shields.

Dr. Zoom - I know it works that way, I was just trying to a point about the how silly the exception is...  You do have a good point about incorporal attacks, though.  I'll have to remember that.

At any rate...  I asked my DM and the other players about it.  They saw no reason why Mage Armor shouldn't stack with shields, with the Mage Armor essentially replacing normal armor.  It looks like we'll probably use a house rule similar to IceBear's, with a warning for me not to take it to any extreme.

I don't think he was worried about it...  Our next jaunt is into the Temple of Elemental Evil.

Now, back to mithral bucklers...

The reason I'm fond of the buckler, isn't so much that it'll give me better AC...  Like Caliban and others have said, Bracers of armor can give a much larger AC bonus...  But the fact that they can be enchanted with Special Abilities like Fortification, Spell Resistance, or Reflecting, which a wizard normally wouldn't be able to take advantage of.


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## IceBear (Jun 10, 2002)

Well, I don't know why you don't remember the debates because they were pretty intense - Caliban and Karinsdad were really battling it out.  I basically made my house rule then, but I have seen where it can be abused and as such I may do with the rules in my next campaign.  It's one thing to allow it when a +1 buckler is all the wizard is going to have, it's quite another with a +5 buckler and +8 bracers of armor.

I agree it makes more logical sense to allow them to stack, but after playing with those rules (and seeing the frustration on the fighter's face when the mage is running around with Shield, Mage Armor and a magical buckler) I think I may not for balance reasons.  We don't have a *real* problem with rules that exisit for no other reason than balance.

IceBear


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## Caliban (Jun 10, 2002)

Jack Haggerty said:
			
		

> *
> It just gets a little frustrating to continually hear...
> 
> "Can I do this?"
> ...




Except in this case, the rules *do* say that you can't. 

PHB, page 104, *Armor*, _Armor Qualities_, *armor bonus*.    







> The protective value of the armor.  Bonuses from armor and a shield stack.  This bonus is an armor bonus, so it does not stack with other effecxts that increase your armor bonus, such as the _mage armor_ spell or _bracers of armor_.




A shield is on the armor table on page 104, and it is listed as having an armor bonus.  It is considered "armor" just as much as a set of banded mail.   Thus the armor bonus of a shield and set of armor will stack with each other, but not with mage armor or bracers. 

There is some contradictory text in the combat section and the glossary that refers to the bonus from a shield as a "shield bonus", but according to the designers it should be read as "armor bonus from the shield."


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## Dr. Zoom (Jun 10, 2002)

Jack Haggerty said:
			
		

> *Anyway...  I don't really care whether or they do stack, I'm just trying to find a good reason for it, substantiated by something printed in the rulebooks.  If the designers meant it to be that way, why didn't they make it a little more clear in the books?
> 
> It just gets a little frustrating to continually hear...
> 
> ...



I am not sure I understand this.  The rules are clear on this.  Like bonuses do not stack, with few exceptions.  Dodge bonuses stack.  Some circumstance bonuses stack.  The armor bonuses from a suit of armor and a shield stack.  How is this unclear or difficult?

When a player says "The rules don't say I can't..." show him where the rules do say that he can't.


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## IceBear (Jun 10, 2002)

Dr. Zoom said:
			
		

> *
> I am not sure I understand this.  The rules are clear on this.  Like bonuses do not stack, with few exceptions.  Dodge bonuses stack.  Some circumstance bonuses stack.  The armor bonuses from a suit of armor and a shield stack.  How is this unclear or difficult?
> 
> When a player says "The rules don't say I can't..." show him where the rules do say that he can't.   *




I think he's questioning the logic of the rules and wants a logical explaination why they don't stack and the "Because THEY say so" is to infer that this is the only reason the rule exists.

As I said, I have no issues with rules purely for balance as there are plenty of rules that exist only because THEY say so (a fireball capping at 10d6, only rogues can spot traps with a high DC even if my elven fighter has a spot of 10 zillion, why is a dragon's 5-ft only 5ft, etc).  These rules tend to be because of balance and I have no issues with THEY saying yes or no to them.

IceBear


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## kreynolds (Jun 10, 2002)

IceBear said:
			
		

> *I think he's questioning the logic of the rules and wants a logical explaination why they don't stack and the "Because THEY say so" is to infer that this is the only reason the rule exists. *




Then let him house rule however he wants them to stack or not stack and let this thread die. 

Essentially, the rules are sound, but they're worded poorly. The designers didn't come back and change their mind. They just clarified some poor wording.


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## Umbran (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Mithral bucklers: A Bard's/Rogue's/Sorcerer's/Wizard's best friend...*



			
				Jack Haggerty said:
			
		

> *The bonuses for magic armor and shields are labeled as "Enhancement bonuses", not "Armor bonuses". *




The enhancement is an enhancement to the shield's armor bonus.  The (now enhanced) armor bonus provided by a shield will not stack with anything but worn armor.


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## IceBear (Jun 10, 2002)

kreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Then let him house rule however he wants them to stack or not stack and let this thread die.
> 
> Essentially, the rules are sound, but they're worded poorly. The designers didn't come back and change their mind. They just clarified some poor wording. *




Oh, I'm not arguing with anyone who wants to house rule anything for what works for them.  I just wanted to give some examples of things that may not make logical sense but that the designers decided to rule that way for balance.

Ok...now letting this thread die 

IceBear


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## Jack Haggerty (Jun 10, 2002)

IceBear said:
			
		

> Ok...now letting this thread die




Not quite...   



			
				Umbran said:
			
		

> The enhancement is an enhancement to the shield's armor bonus. The (now enhanced) armor bonus provided by a shield will not stack with anything but worn armor.




Alright.  Thank you Umbran, that's one thing I was looking for, and it makes perfect sense.



> _Originally posted by Caliban_Except in this case, the rules do say that you can't. PHB, page 104, Armor, Armor Qualities, armor bonus.
> 
> 
> 
> > The protective value of the armor. Bonuses from armor and a shield stack. This bonus is an armor bonus, so it does not stack with other effecxts that increase your armor bonus, such as the mage armor spell or bracers of armor.




Alright.  I must have missed that, or misread it in the rulebook.  Thank you, Caliban, that was the second thing I was looking for.

Now...  Why didn't you guys just say that in the first place.  You'd think all that would have come out in the earlier debates, and you'd be able to politely inform anyone who choose to requestion it.

I concede.


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## Dr. Zoom (Jun 10, 2002)

Jack Haggerty said:
			
		

> Now...  Why didn't you guys just say that in the first place.



I did.  When you asked me if I was sure I directed you to page 104 of the PH, which is what Caliban quoted.


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## IceBear (Jun 10, 2002)

Because someone else mentioned that same passage as Caliban right at the beginning 

I just assumed you thought it was vague 


[Edit] Yup, Dr. Zoom posted it in the last post on the 1st page.

IceBear


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## kreynolds (Jun 10, 2002)

IceBear said:
			
		

> *[Edit] Yup, Dr. Zoom posted it in the last post on the 1st page.
> 
> IceBear *




Yeah, it always sucks being the last post on the page. Those tend to get overlooked.


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## Jack Haggerty (Jun 10, 2002)

I did read the page...  But like I said, for some reason I completely missed the bit about Mage Armor and Bracers of Armor...  Sorry.


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## IceBear (Jun 10, 2002)

It's ok.  It's just the reason why I didn't mention it again 

Oh well, I've got to stop assuming stuff.

IceBear


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## kreynolds (Jun 10, 2002)

IceBear said:
			
		

> *Oh well, I've got to stop assuming stuff. *




Yeah, you do. You're starting to piss off 'umption.


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## Lord Ravinous (Jun 10, 2002)

I dont see how a Buckler would hamper arcane jestures especially if its mithral, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it strap on to your forearm or wrist(cant remember which).


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## kreynolds (Jun 10, 2002)

Lord Ravinous said:
			
		

> *I dont see how a Buckler would hamper arcane jestures especially if its mithral, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it strap on to your forearm or wrist(cant remember which). *




Forearm. Normally, you apply the buckler's arcane spell failure chance, but when it's mithril, there isn't any arcane spell failure chance.


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## Xarlen (Jun 11, 2002)

Jack Haggerty said:
			
		

> *
> Now...  Why didn't you guys just say that in the first place.  You'd think all that would have come out in the earlier debates, and you'd be able to politely inform anyone who choose to requestion it.
> 
> I concede. *




I did. At the top of the 2nd page, I quoted the very spot.


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## Iku Rex (Jun 11, 2002)

Caliban said:
			
		

> *(In the original huge debate about this, we eventually got confirmations from Sean Reynolds, Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, and Skip Williams.) *



 Does anyone still have these? 

(And are you sure about Jonathan Tweet?)


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## Feite (Feb 16, 2011)

I thought shields provide a shield bonus, not an armor bonus


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## frankthedm (Feb 16, 2011)

Welcome to Enworld.

Topics dated before August 2003 use 3.0 D&D rules, which are slightly different from 3.5 D&D. This subject is one of those that changed with the 3.5 edition. Not a severe change as energy resistance or spell durations, for example, but a notable change none the less.

http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html 3.0 SRD


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## Summer-Knight925 (Feb 17, 2011)

a staff is 2 handed (assuming it is AT THE LEAST a quarterstaff sized weapon) and would then require two hands to use, but casting a spell should only require one hand....

if you really wanna make things cool, create a buckler than can "hold" spell components (like a spell storing item [which would be cool on a buckler] or a bracer of storing type thingy)

then its just looking like a bamf and casting spells ALL WHILE WEARING A SHIELD


and bucklers are worn on the forearm, switching a weapon should be a SWIFT action rather than a free action, and depending on the weapon, should provoke AoP, if its a light weapon then no AoP, if its larger than that, give them an AoP

the only reason I say that is because I once played a Paladin Sorcerer who used a Greatsword...so switching to cast a spell would provok an AoP, let alone casting the spell, needless to say he became a Cast first, Charge and Smite second, ask questions later kinda character....until he met storm giant who liked to bull rush people off cliffs...


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## Empirate (Feb 17, 2011)

Wow, eight and a half years dead, yet resurrected all the same! Welcome back, thread, we would have missed you... even more than your slightly less long dead brother over here.


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## dagger (Feb 17, 2011)

I am ready to start this debate again, which side should I champion?


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## Jeff Wilder (Feb 17, 2011)

[Ah!  Necromancy'd!]


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