# Moon Knight - SPOILERS



## MarkB (Mar 30, 2022)

Interesting opening episode. I know nothing about the character, so had no idea what to expect. The whole blackouts / dual personality thing was confusing, but deliberately so, very well portrayed from the viewpoint of the befuddled Steven.

It was nice to see a lot of the action taking place in the UK, though from what I understand that may not last.

The action was well done, with the cupcake-van chase being stand-out, a nice blend of action and occasional comedy. I'll be interested to see more of the title character in-costume, and of how they develop the Egyptian-themed mythology.


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## DeviousQuail (Mar 30, 2022)

Just finished the first episode. I really liked it. I think they did a great job of making me understand Steven's point of view. Egyptian mythology is also really fascinating and I can't wait to see all the ways it gets blended into the story. Can't wait for more and definitely suggest it to anyone that is on the fence about watching it.


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## Morrus (Mar 30, 2022)

I know nothing about the character — does his alter ego have superpowers?

I quite enjoyed it. It was good to see it being set in the U.K. (even if briefly). Makes it feel like a real place!


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## DeviousQuail (Mar 30, 2022)

Morrus said:


> I know nothing about the character — does his alter ego have superpowers?
> 
> I quite enjoyed it. It was good to see it being set in the U.K. (even if briefly). Makes it feel like a real place!



They don't show the powers much in this episode. They are implied during his personality shifts. However, we do see some fighting ability and regeneration.


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## MarkB (Mar 30, 2022)

DeviousQuail said:


> They don't show the powers much in this episode. They are implied during his personality shifts. However, we do see some fighting ability and regeneration.



I'll be interested to see how obvious his persona-switches are from the outside. Like, we see that he manifests a costume and superhuman abilities, but presumably he doesn't do that every single time he switches - like, he didn't ask his co-worker out for the best steak in town while cosplaying as bat-mummy.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 30, 2022)

This is not long, but it is informative:


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## MarkB (Mar 30, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> This is not long, but it is informative:



"Humans have been studying Egyptian mythology since the 18th century"? So, no ancient Egyptians ever looked into the subject?


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## Ryujin (Mar 30, 2022)

MarkB said:


> I'll be interested to see how obvious his persona-switches are from the outside. Like, we see that he manifests a costume and superhuman abilities, but presumably he doesn't do that every single time he switches - like, he didn't ask his co-worker out for the best steak in town while cosplaying as bat-mummy.



I never really followed the title, but Moon Knight would show up from time to time in titles that I did follow. If I remember correctly only his Mark identity has the powers. I believe the Mark identity is the original personality, so it's very interesting that they start out with Steven instead. 

Enjoyed this first episode enough, less than halfway in, that I was already sad that they didn't drop the whole thing at once. That's usually a good sign.


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## pukunui (Mar 30, 2022)

I know it’s just the one episode so far, but I usually watch MCU content with my children, and I’ve heard this one is “brutal”, so I’m wondering if I should watch it by myself first.


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## MarkB (Mar 31, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I know it’s just the one episode so far, but I usually watch MCU content with my children, and I’ve heard this one is “brutal”, so I’m wondering if I should watch it by myself first.



So far there's no actual gore, but several very obvious deaths on-screen, and the first scene had me wincing in sympathy and getting Die Hard flashbacks.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 31, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I know it’s just the one episode so far, but I usually watch MCU content with my children, and I’ve heard this one is “brutal”, so I’m wondering if I should watch it by myself first.




If you let them watch the Netflix Marvel shows, yes. If not, no, as I am guessing the violence will be a similar level.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 31, 2022)

MarkB said:


> "Humans have been studying Egyptian mythology since the 18th century"? So, no ancient Egyptians ever looked into the subject?




I am sure they mean modern day, starting with Napolean and the founding of Egyptology.


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## pukunui (Mar 31, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> If you let them watch the Netflix Marvel shows, yes. If not, no, as I am guessing the violence will be a similar level.



I haven’t even watched those, so I wouldn’t know. We’ve only watched the movies and shows available on Disney+ up till now (plus the Tom Holland Spidey films).


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## Umbran (Mar 31, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I believe the Mark identity is the original personality, so it's very interesting that they start out with Steven instead.




I think it is an excellent choice - it allowed Marvel to do its frequent playing with genre - from Steven's point of view, this episode is _horror_, not superheros.


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## Older Beholder (Mar 31, 2022)

I really enjoyed the first episode, Oscar Isaac is great as usual.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 31, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I haven’t even watched those, so I wouldn’t know. We’ve only watched the movies and shows available on Disney+ up till now (plus the Tom Holland Spidey films).




It got a TV-14 rating is the US, instead of TV-MA, which I think is the rating for the Netflix shows. One review compares the violence level to that in The Dark Knight.


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## pukunui (Mar 31, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> It got a TV-14 rating is the US, instead of TV-MA, which I think is the rating for the Netflix shows. One review compares the violence level to that in The Dark Knight.



OK. I _have_ seen that.


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## trappedslider (Mar 31, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> This is not long, but it is informative:



The museum setting made think of the old joke:

"You know the only reason why the Pyramids are still in Egypt?
"No, why"
"Too heavy for the British to take."


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## RangerWickett (Mar 31, 2022)

Funny, since The Eternals had scenes in Babylon, and the literal gates of Babylon were stolen brick by brick and reassembled in Berlin's Pergamon museum. I've actually seen it, and the blue bricks in the movie were very distinctive.

(But anachronistic inn the Eternals, because that particular blue stone came hundreds of years later.)


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## Davies (Mar 31, 2022)

Morrus said:


> I know nothing about the character — does his alter ego have superpowers?



Initially, the character was just a Batman-style costumed vigilante, but he's sometimes gotten powered up -- whether due to the influence of the Egyptian moon god or his own mental illness varies from telling to telling -- to have super-strength and associated talents. What's going on in this account remains to be seen.


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## Paul Farquhar (Mar 31, 2022)

His accent was OTT, but I guess that could be justified if Steven isn't a real person.


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## Ryujin (Mar 31, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I think it is an excellent choice - it allowed Marvel to do its frequent playing with genre - from Steven's point of view, this episode is _horror_, not superheros.



Oh, it's a very good narrative choice. We are introduced to the character at the same time that the protagonist is and, given that it's based on a comic that started with horror, it's also a very good choice.


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## Bolares (Mar 31, 2022)

The first episode was funnier than I expected. I'm invested on the show.


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## wicked cool (Mar 31, 2022)

loved it. 

in the comics does he also have 2 personalitys? just curious but when he wakes up outside the house any idea where that is? anyone recognize the road?


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## FitzTheRuke (Mar 31, 2022)

wicked cool said:


> loved it.
> 
> in the comics does he also have 2 personalitys? just curious but when he wakes up outside the house any idea where that is? anyone recognize the road?




I the comics, he has _many_ personalities. At least 5.


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## Ryujin (Mar 31, 2022)

FitzTheRuke said:


> I the comics, he has _many_ personalities. At least 5.



And several, at least, are implied in the show. One said something like, "Oh no, the weak one is in charge now." as if discussing it with another.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 31, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> And several, at least, are implied in the show. One said something like, "Oh no, the weak one is in charge now." as if discussing it with another.




That voice should be Khonshu, voiced by F. Murray Abraham.


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## Ryujin (Mar 31, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> That voice should be Khonshu, voiced by F. Murray Abraham.



to me it sounded more contemporary than Khonshu. I believe that we hear Khonshu during the elevator scene.


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## Randomthoughts (Mar 31, 2022)

Davies said:


> Initially, the character was just a Batman-style costumed vigilante, but he's sometimes gotten powered up -- whether due to the influence of the Egyptian moon god or his own mental illness varies from telling to telling -- to have super-strength and associated talents. What's going on in this account remains to be seen.



Interesting. I followed Moon Knight in the 90s iirc and he was just a brawler then. The last scene of the episode at least points to super strength. Looking forward to the power up.


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## Paul Farquhar (Mar 31, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> to me it sounded more contemporary than Khonshu. I believe that we hear Khonshu during the elevator scene.



It was definitely F. Murray, and F. Murray is credited as playing Khonshu (whoever he is).


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Mar 31, 2022)

I really liked this episode. They really took "Show, don't tell" to heart with a lot of scenes in this episode (the opening one with Harrow, the opening one with Steven and his ways to keep himself from "sleepwalking," etc). 

My favorite part of the episode was probably the end of the Steak House. I felt so bad for Steven.


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## Umbran (Mar 31, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> to me it sounded more contemporary than Khonshu. I believe that we hear Khonshu during the elevator scene.




Honestly, for six episodes, I think three entitites (Steven, Marc, and Khonshu) in one body is probably sufficient.


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## Ryujin (Mar 31, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> It was definitely F. Murray, and F. Murray is credited as playing Khonshu (whoever he is).



Egyptian God of the Moon and Mark is his Knight (The Fist of Khonshu).


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## Bolares (Mar 31, 2022)

Who wants to bet there is no mum getting his voice mails?


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## Paul Farquhar (Mar 31, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Honestly, for six episodes, I think three entitites (Steven, Marc, and Khonshu) in one body is probably sufficient.



I have reason to suspect there may be at least one more.

Is Khonshu in the body? I was under the impression he was a god.


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## Ryujin (Mar 31, 2022)

Bolares said:


> Who wants to bet there is no mum getting his voice mails?



No bet


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## Paul Farquhar (Mar 31, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> No bet



I'm sure he keeps in touch with his mummy.


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## Ryujin (Mar 31, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I have reason to suspect there may be at least one more.
> 
> Is Khonshu in the body? I was under the impression he was a god.



He should be an outside agency, not one of the alters. He granted Moon Knight his powers.


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## Ryujin (Mar 31, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I'm sure he keeps in touch with his mummy.











						Get Out Leave GIF - Get Out Leave Gtfo - Discover & Share GIFs
					

Click to view the GIF




					tenor.com


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## Paul Farquhar (Mar 31, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Get Out Leave GIF - Get Out Leave Gtfo - Discover & Share GIFs
> 
> 
> Click to view the GIF
> ...



I'll get my hat.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Mar 31, 2022)

Bolares said:


> Who wants to bet there is no mum getting his voice mails?



Well, given that Steven isn't the original personality, that's a given.


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## Bolares (Mar 31, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Well, given that Steven isn't the original personality, that's a given.



Sure, but I want to know if someone IS  listenning to it.


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## MarkB (Mar 31, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Well, given that Steven isn't the original personality, that's a given.



Maybe the condition is hereditary, and they each keep in touch with a different parental persona.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Mar 31, 2022)

Bolares said:


> Sure, but I want to know if someone IS  listenning to it.





MarkB said:


> Maybe the condition is hereditary, and they each keep in touch with a different parental persona.



My guess is that if anyone is listening to the voice messages, it's Mark, in order to keep tabs on what his other persona is up to.


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## Bolares (Mar 31, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> My guess is that if anyone is listening to the voice messages, it's Mark, in order to keep tabs on what his other persona is up to.



That's a very cool idea


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## Umbran (Mar 31, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> My guess is that if anyone is listening to the voice messages, it's Mark, in order to keep tabs on what his other persona is up to.




Well, Marc Spector in the comics is a highly paid mercenary.  He likely has need of "clean" cover identities from time to time.   We might guess that when Spector's mind broke, part of him took on one of those identities.  Such an identity would very plausibly have contact drop points and phone numbers.


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## ART! (Mar 31, 2022)

Davies said:


> Initially, the character was just a Batman-style costumed vigilante, but he's sometimes gotten powered up -- whether due to the influence of the Egyptian moon god or his own mental illness varies from telling to telling -- to have super-strength and associated talents. What's going on in this account remains to be seen.



In his earliest appearances, he was just a merc hired to wear a weird costume and hunt the titular werewolf of _Werewolf by Night_. The character's been through a lot of interpretations, which latter writers have really latched onto and taken advantage of.


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## Umbran (Mar 31, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Is Khonshu in the body? I was under the impression he was a god.




He's part of the conversations that go on inside Steven's head.  For purposes of managing the viewers' understanding of what the heck is going on, that's close enough.


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## Davies (Mar 31, 2022)

It's interesting that people are assuming that the guy with the obviously made-up name "Marc Spector" is 'real', and the guy with the relatively plausible name "Steven Grant" is 'imaginary'.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 31, 2022)

Davies said:


> It's interesting that people are assuming that the guy with the obviously made-up name "Marc Spector" is 'real', and the guy with the relatively plausible name "Steven Grant" is 'imaginary'.




Yes, they do sometimes change things around for the MCU, but in the comics, Marc is the original personality before he fractures.


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## Ryujin (Mar 31, 2022)

Davies said:


> It's interesting that people are assuming that the guy with the obviously made-up name "Marc Spector" is 'real', and the guy with the relatively plausible name "Steven Grant" is 'imaginary'.



But hey, the doctor with the last name Strange is totally OK.


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## Umbran (Mar 31, 2022)

Davies said:


> It's interesting that people are assuming that the guy with the obviously made-up name "Marc Spector" is 'real', and the guy with the relatively plausible name "Steven Grant" is 'imaginary'.




People are assuming that they are maintaining the setup from the comics, until we see evidence otherwise.

And, honestly, it makes more sense, in that skill with modern firearms and other equipment isn't really in the bailiwick of an ancient Egyptian Moon God to grant.


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## Davies (Mar 31, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> But hey, the doctor with the last name Strange is totally OK.



People with the surname Strange. On the other hand, I now discover that there are people with the surname Spector who aren't in the music business.


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## Umbran (Mar 31, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> But hey, the doctor with the last name Strange is totally OK.




"Guy named Otto Octavius ends up with eight limbs.  What are the odds?"


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Mar 31, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Is Khonshu in the body? I was under the impression he was a god.



In pop culture, Egyptian gods almost always don't work like the gods from from different pantheons (the Aesir/Vanir from Norse, the Olympians/Titans/Primordials from Greek and Roman Mythology, etc). Instead of being physical gods, they're more spiritual gods. In a way, they're kind of like a lot of pop-culture ghosts. They don't really have a physical form, but can possess someone in order to temporarily have a physical body. 

This stems from the fact that a lot of Egyptian pharaohs claimed to be the gods, like Horus, Osiris, Amun-Ra, and others. So, it's a common theme in pop culture versions of Egyptian mythology for the gods to be incorporeal entities that need to possess an "Avatar" in order to actually manifest on Earth. 

In the comics, it was often unclear whether or not Moon Knight was actually the Avatar of Khonshu (Egyptian God of the Moon) or if he was just imagining the whole thing. 

So, the answer is "kind of yes." Marc Spector might actually be being possessed by Khonshu or he might just be crazy. It's not exactly clear.


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## Bolares (Mar 31, 2022)

Umbran said:


> People are assuming that they are maintaining the setup from the comics, until we see evidence otherwise.
> 
> And, honestly, it makes more sense, in that skill with modern firearms and other equipment isn't really in the bailiwick of an ancient Egyptian Moon God to grant.



Narrativelly it makes a lot of sense too. Make Steven discover he is not real, give the audience some drama...


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## Umbran (Mar 31, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> So, the answer is "kind of yes." Marc Spector might actually be being possessed by Khonshu or he might just be crazy. It's not exactly clear.




It was a bit easier to question in the comics, because he had to physically put on the costume.  In the show, he manifests it apparently out of thin air, which otherwise needs some explanation.

Plus, the comics had _years_ to unfold the story.  We have six episodes.


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## Stalker0 (Mar 31, 2022)

Umbran said:


> People are assuming that they are maintaining the setup from the comics, until we see evidence otherwise.
> 
> And, honestly, it makes more sense, in that skill with modern firearms and other equipment isn't really in the bailiwick of an ancient Egyptian Moon God to grant.



And the idea that the moon god would pick a bad ass merc to be their champion rather than a gift shop person makes a bit more sense


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## Bolares (Mar 31, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> And the idea that the moon god would pick a bad ass merc to be their champion rather than a gift shop person makes a bit more sense



Well, Steven could have stumbled in to some mythological stuff in the museum if this was a 90s movie....


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 31, 2022)

Bolares said:


> Well, Steven could have stumbled in to some mythological stuff in the museum if this was a 90s movie....




Or a horror installment in the Night at the Museum movies.


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## Davies (Mar 31, 2022)

On the other hand, there's also drama in Steven being led to believe that he's not real (and referred to as a parasite) while actually being the real one all along. And Marc's words to him, "Let me protect us", echoes what I believe real-world dissociative subjects also experience -- the alter is created to _protect_ the original personality. Usually in a much less violent fashion, but this is an action movie.


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## Umbran (Mar 31, 2022)

Bolares said:


> Well, Steven could have stumbled in to some mythological stuff in the museum if this was a 90s movie....




Yep.  They certainly could make that, or some variant thereof, the story.  It just makes the story of how we get Marc's skills a bit harder, and I'm not sure there's much payoff to doing it.


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## ART! (Mar 31, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> So, the answer is "kind of yes." Marc Spector might actually be being possessed by Khonshu or he might just be crazy. It's not exactly clear.



According to interviews, the writers have worked really hard to deal with Marc's mental illness respectfully. "He's just crazy" is very reductive.


Bolares said:


> Narrativelly it makes a lot of sense too. Make Steven discover he is not real, give the audience some drama...



Not knocking what you're saying at all, and this is arguably very tangential, but I'm reminded of Tolkien's essay "On Fairy Stories", wherein he says - to _very_ roughly paraphrase - maybe what's important isn't what you or I might agree is real, but what's _important_.


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## Umbran (Mar 31, 2022)

Davies said:


> On the other hand, there's also drama in Steven being led to believe that he's not real (and referred to as a parasite) while actually being the real one all along.




So, while they aren't using real-world dissociative identity disorder, I am going to guess that they are going to be a little more sensitive than that - they probably aren't going to gaslight the main, sympathetic character in that way.  They won't lie to him, or tell him he's "not real".


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## Bolares (Mar 31, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Yep.  They certainly could make that, or some variant thereof, the story.  It just makes the story of how we get Marc's skills a bit harder, and I'm not sure there's much payoff to doing it.



I 100% prefer the story they are telling, no doubt


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## Umbran (Mar 31, 2022)

ART! said:


> Not knocking what you're saying at all, but I'm reminded of Tolkien's essay "On Fairy Stories", wherein he says - to _very_ roughly paraphrase - maybe what's important isn't what you or I might agree is real, but what's _important_.




Yes, and, in addition, if they are going to give a nod to real world mental illness, then we should expect that, in some sense, Steven serves a purpose.  While Khonshu may think of him as a parasite, that's probably because Khonshu only cares about the goals, and not a whit about the person who was Marc Spector. 

I will be unsurprised to find that Steven is what remains of Marc's humanity.  And, in a hero story, losing that would be _very_ bad.


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## Ryujin (Mar 31, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Yes, and, in addition, if they are going to give a nod to real world mental illness, then we should expect that, in some sense, Steven serves a purpose.  While Khonshu may think of him as a parasite, that's probably because Khonshu only cares about the goals, and not a whit about the person who was Marc Spector.
> 
> I will be unsurprised to find that Steven is what remains of Marc's humanity.  And, in a hero story, losing that would be _very_ bad.



The role of either Conscience or Safe Harbour are pretty likely. An alternate identity for a superhero is a must so an alternate identity that doesn't know it's a superhero is double-plus good.


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## Bolares (Mar 31, 2022)

I use "real" here with heavy air quotes...


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## Umbran (Mar 31, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> An alternate identity for a superhero is a must so an alternate identity that doesn't know it's a superhero is double-plus good.




Well, until their ignorance gets in the way...

So, separate topic for the collected readers here:

When, in Marvel comics, a character shows up in a quaint Bavarian-style town, near a quaint castle, do you think Bavaria, or do you think... Latveria?


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## Bolares (Mar 31, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Yes, and, in addition, if they are going to give a nod to real world mental illness, then we should expect that, in some sense, Steven serves a purpose.  While Khonshu may think of him as a parasite, that's probably because Khonshu only cares about the goals, and not a whit about the person who was Marc Spector.
> 
> I will be unsurprised to find that Steven is what remains of Marc's humanity.  And, in a hero story, losing that would be _very_ bad.



I saw a interview with the director where he says that he is very interested in shades of gray, so Khonshu could be viewed as much as a villain as the glass guy or aligator goddess (I'm bad at names)


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## Umbran (Mar 31, 2022)

Bolares said:


> I use "real" here with heavy air quotes...




Yeah.  We can imagine that Marc Spector was a guy, and that now, the personality that carries his name isn't really the same person.


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## Bolares (Mar 31, 2022)

Also, I find it interesting that Marc nows about Steven but Steven doesn't know about Marc, and Marc is activelly covering his tracks to hide his existance from Steven, so there must be and objective reason why Steven is usefull to Marc


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## Umbran (Mar 31, 2022)

Bolares said:


> I saw a interview with the director where he says that he is very interested in shades of gray, so Khonshu could be viewed as much as a villain as the glass guy or aligator goddess (I'm bad at names)




There have been times in the comics where Khonshu has had goals that ran counter to what other heroes think is appropriate, certainly.


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## Ryujin (Mar 31, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Well, until their ignorance gets in the way...
> 
> So, separate topic for the collected readers here:
> 
> When, in Marvel comics, a character shows up in a quaint Bavarian-style town, near a quaint castle, do you think Bavaria, or do you think... Latveria?



Hence why I used "1984" verbiage.

If the town is explicitly referred to as being in Bavaria, I think at a Nth dimensional right angle to Latveria. If it's not, then I think Latveria, Sokovia, or Symkaria in that order.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 31, 2022)

Bolares said:


> I saw a interview with the director where he says that he is very interested in shades of gray, so Khonshu could be viewed as much as a villain as the glass guy or aligator goddess (I'm bad at names)




Ethan Hawkes' character does a good job of selling that Ammit is good and doing what needs to be done, but her ways are too much Minority Report, in that potential future crimes are punished as if there was no other way to prevent them from happening.


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## Bolares (Mar 31, 2022)

I also heard they had a lot of easter eggs and connections to the larger MCU planned. But seeing the end result of the series, they liked it so much that they removed most of it, because they were certain the series could hold it's on without the connections.


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## Davies (Mar 31, 2022)

Umbran said:


> When, in Marvel comics, a character shows up in a quaint Bavarian-style town, near a quaint castle, do you think Bavaria, or do you think... Latveria?



I don't think Latveria if there are cupcake trucks and pop music on the radio. And radio.


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## Bolares (Mar 31, 2022)

Davies said:


> I don't think Latveria if there are cupcake trucks and pop music on the radio. And radio.



I bet doombots have radios installed in them...


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## Davies (Mar 31, 2022)

Bolares said:


> I bet doombots have radios installed in them...



<just stares>


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## Ryujin (Mar 31, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Ethan Hawkes' character does a good job of selling that Ammit is good and doing what needs to be done, but her ways are too much Minority Report, in that potential future crimes are punished as if there was no other way to prevent them from happening.



From what Hawke's character said, their Ammit is a bit of a departure from the mythological one (at least from what little I remember of my Ancient and Medieval History courses). There aren't a lot of people whose even desiccated heart will weight the same as a feather, however, taking them early doesn't give them a chance to get their balance right in the eyes of the gods. Like you say, their Ammit goes in for pre-crime, judging people before their deaths and was at odds with the other gods over this. The traditional god/demon judged at the time of death.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 31, 2022)

Bolares said:


> I bet doombots have radios installed in them...




Doomboxes! And they play Doom metal!


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## Umbran (Mar 31, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Doomboxes! And they play Doom metal!




When you pay the lowest bidder to make your Doombots:


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Mar 31, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> From what Hawke's character said, their Ammit is a bit of a departure from the mythological one (at least from what little I remember of my Ancient and Medieval History courses). There aren't a lot of people whose even desiccated heart will weight the same as a feather, however, taking them early doesn't give them a chance to get their balance right in the eyes of the gods. Like you say, their Ammit goes in for pre-crime, judging people before their deaths and was at odds with the other gods over this. The traditional god/demon judged at the time of death.



This show does take some liberties with the mythology (as did the Eternals and Thor movies with their source material). In the mythology, Ammit was just a monster from the Underworld, not a goddess. AFAICT, no one ever worshipped Ammit. That would be a bit like worshipping Cerberus from Greek Mythology.

The feather that the heart was weighed against was a magical feather. The Feather of Maat, or the Feather of Truth/Justice/Order.

(I'm just realizing that D&D's Giants took the word "Maat" from Egyptian mythology. That's kinda neat.)


----------



## Bolares (Mar 31, 2022)

Yep, the feather and heart stuff was not Ammit.


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan (Mar 31, 2022)

Bolares said:


> Yep, the feather and heart stuff was not Ammit.



Well . . . kinda. The feather and heart stuff was just general Underworld stuff, which would be connected to Anubis and Osiris. However, if your heart weighed more than the feather (indicating that you were a bad person) your soul would be eaten by Ammit. 

So, Ammit wasn't in charge of measuring your heart or anything like that, but was the punishment for if you were a bad person.


----------



## Ryujin (Mar 31, 2022)

The Feather of Ma'at, weighed by Ammit. Worshiping Ammit would have been more like worshiping Charon, from Greek Mythology, or the Grim Reaper/Incarnation of Death. So yes, as far as I know/remember there was no actual Ammit worship.

_EDIT_ - Then again, the Egyptian pantheon changed over the centuries. Gods were merged. Others were added.


----------



## MarkB (Mar 31, 2022)

There was some talk in the episode about Ammit being betrayed / shunned by the other gods. So presumably the in-universe version of events will be that the mythology as commonly understood, in which Ammit isn't a proper god, is the result of revisionism by the other gods.


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## Umbran (Mar 31, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Well . . . kinda. The feather and heart stuff was just general Underworld stuff, which would be connected to Anubis and Osiris. However, if your heart weighed more than the feather (indicating that you were a bad




If I recall correctly, it was Anubis who would weigh your heart against the feather of Ma'at.  Ma'at was a personification of truth and justice.

For Ammit's people to come up and pre-judge you would be bypassing both Anubis and Ma'at, which doesn't sound like a good thing.


----------



## Ryujin (Mar 31, 2022)

MarkB said:


> There was some talk in the episode about Ammit being betrayed / shunned by the other gods. So presumably the in-universe version of events will be that the mythology as commonly understood, in which Ammit isn't a proper god, is the result of revisionism by the other gods.



More likely, based on what was in the episode, that Ammit was pre-judging people and not folowing The Law, so the other gods laid a smack-down. Very few villains are not the hero of their own story.


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## pukunui (Mar 31, 2022)

Some really interesting discussion going on here. I have been wondering how the MCU will handle other mythological deities, given that the Norse gods are just long-lived, superhuman aliens whose science/technology is sufficiently advanced to be indistinguishable from magic.


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## tomBitonti (Mar 31, 2022)

Bolares said:


> I also heard they had a lot of easter eggs and connections to the larger MCU planned. But seeing the end result of the series, they liked it so much that they removed most of it, because they were certain the series could hold it's on without the connections.




About that ... they are making it harder to connect this to the other shows.  I think this first episode was great.  But, I'm not sure what it is doing in MarvelVerse.

TomB


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## Ryujin (Mar 31, 2022)

tomBitonti said:


> About that ... they are making it harder to connect this to the other shows.  I think this first episode was great.  But, I'm not sure what it is doing in MarvelVerse.
> 
> TomB



It's opening the door, along with Doctor Strange, to the mystical side of the Marvel Universe. After this you've got Blade, Black Knight, Damien Hellstrom (Take THAT, name give-aways!), Magik (though unlikely, because she's also a mutant), and many more.


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## Umbran (Mar 31, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Magik (though unlikely, because she's also a mutant), and many more.




She's a mutant, but Marvel has those back under their wing now.

However, Magik was in the not good New Mutants movie, so....


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## Umbran (Mar 31, 2022)

tomBitonti said:


> But, I'm not sure what it is doing in MarvelVerse.




It is hanging out, being interesting in and of itself, without having to be inextricably connected to everybody else's stuff.


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## Ryujin (Mar 31, 2022)

Umbran said:


> She's a mutant, but Marvel has those back under their wing now.
> 
> However, Magik was in the not good New Mutants movie, so....



I was unaware of that, as I haven't seen it. I guess there's good reason for that.


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## Umbran (Mar 31, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I was unaware of that, as I haven't seen it. I guess there's good reason for that.




It actually had promise.  I was okay with the plotline they chose, and the themes. The actors were (mostly) up to the challenge.  The special effects were okay, but... it wasn't good.

But, if you have morbid curiosity and time, it is available on Hulu and HBO Max, I think.


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## Stalker0 (Mar 31, 2022)

tomBitonti said:


> About that ... they are making it harder to connect this to the other shows.  I think this first episode was great.  But, I'm not sure what it is doing in MarvelVerse.
> 
> TomB



One thing we have going for it is the geography. Being in the UK lets it share a world with the avengers without being right next door. Beyond the "Khosu may not want to interact with other people", it adds more credance to why the avengers don't just show up as soon as the stakes get too high".


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 1, 2022)

Umbran said:


> It actually had promise.  I was okay with the plotline they chose, and the themes. The actors were (mostly) up to the challenge.  The special effects were okay, but... it wasn't good.
> 
> But, if you have morbid curiosity and time, it is available on Hulu and HBO Max, I think.




HBO Max only until the exclusivity deals the Fox signed run out. It shows up in a Hulu search, but you still have to buy HBO Max through Hulu to watch it.

I enjoyed it and think it was better than several of the X-Men movies and the 2nd Wolverine movie, but The New Mutants was one of my favorite comic books and Magik will always be a favorite character.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 1, 2022)

What the director has to say about lack of MCU easter eggs and where the show fits in the timeline:









						Moon Knight Director Discusses Show’s Place in MCU Timeline
					

The latest in the line of Marvel Cinematic Universe debuted today on Disney+.




					movieweb.com


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## trappedslider (Apr 1, 2022)

Two plot holes in Moon knight: Oscar Isaac saying he can’t date anyone because the ankle restraints on his bed are a red flag and the other is him renting that apartment in Central London while working in a gift shop.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 1, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Two plot holes in Moon knight: Oscar Isaac saying he can’t date anyone because the ankle restraints on his bed are a red flag and the other is him renting that apartment in Central London while working in a gift shop.




One article I read says the apartment probably belongs to the primary personality, Marc Spector, or is at least paid for from his income as a mercenary.


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## MarkB (Apr 1, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Two plot holes in Moon knight: Oscar Isaac saying he can’t date anyone because the ankle restraints on his bed are a red flag and the other is him renting that apartment in Central London while working in a gift shop.



Why is the first one a plot hole?


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## trappedslider (Apr 1, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Why is the first one a plot hole?



ummm well....not heard of BDSM?


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## Tonguez (Apr 1, 2022)

So where was the European country the cupcake van chased happened in?

I like steven and the choice to start with his breakdown with thehero reveal at the end.

I liked The London setting too

Khonsu voice seems not very Egyptian (not that I know what an ancient Egyptian diety sounds like)

oh an love the sound track so far


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## MarkB (Apr 1, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> ummm well....not heard of BDSM?



Sure, but it's not something he's into. So it's still going to be a difficult conversation if he brings someone home.


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## Tonguez (Apr 1, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> This show does take some liberties with the mythology (as did the Eternals and Thor movies with their source material). In the mythology, Ammit was just a monster from the Underworld, not a goddess. AFAICT, no one ever worshipped Ammit. That would be a bit like worshipping Cerberus from Greek Mythology.
> 
> The feather that the heart was weighed against was a magical feather. The Feather of Maat, or the Feather of Truth/Justice/Order.
> 
> (I'm just realizing that D&D's Giants took the word "Maat" from Egyptian mythology. That's kinda neat.)




Ammit wasnt just a monster and is very much regarded as a goddess in her own right.

she wasnt worshipped however, instead she was universally feared as the Devourer of Souls, those who were punished by her faced true oblivion which for Egyptians was worse than death


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## trappedslider (Apr 1, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Sure, but it's not something he's into. So it's still going to be a difficult conversation if he brings someone home.



How do we know he's not into that? 



I'm pretty sure he would be more freaked out if he did bring a girl home and she smiled upon seeing the restraints lol


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## Davies (Apr 1, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> ummm well....not heard of BDSM?



That's still not a plot hole, that's Steven being naive.


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## MarkB (Apr 1, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> How do we know he's not into that?



Because he thinks it's a red flag.


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## trappedslider (Apr 1, 2022)

Davies said:


> That's still not a plot hole, that's Steven being naive.



nerds are just the worse


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## Davies (Apr 1, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> nerds are just the worse



"worst".


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## Bolares (Apr 1, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Why is the first one a plot hole?



Because I’d let Oscar Isaac tie me anywhere


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## Umbran (Apr 1, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> ummm well....not heard of BDSM?




That's not exactly a first date thing for most people.


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## Bolares (Apr 1, 2022)

Yeah, being more serious now... it's just not light bondage, it's one anckle strap, sand around the bed... it's much more saw then 50 shades....


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## billd91 (Apr 1, 2022)

Umbran said:


> "Guy named Otto Octavius ends up with eight limbs.  What are the odds?"



Weird things sometimes happen. We have a local orthopedist named Dr. Bohn. And there's a picture on a Pink Floyd album (specifically, early printings of *A Nice Pair*) of a dental surgeon's office with the name W. R. Phang.


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## pukunui (Apr 1, 2022)

billd91 said:


> Weird things sometimes happen. We have a local orthopedist named Dr. Bohn. And there's a picture on a Pink Floyd album (specifically, early printings of *A Nice Pair*) of a dental surgeon's office with the name W. R. Phang.



I saw a gastroenterologist named Dr Guttman once.


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## Umbran (Apr 1, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I saw a gastroenterologist named Dr Guttman once.




In my area, a gent owned a funeral home, and put his name on it.  It became, unfortunately, "Long Funeral Services".


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## MGibster (Apr 1, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Two plot holes in Moon knight: Oscar Isaac saying he can’t date anyone because the ankle restraints on his bed are a red flag and the other is him renting that apartment in Central London while working in a gift shop.



Neither one of those are plot holes.  A plot hole is something in a story that goes against the established logic of the story's plot.  The idea of someone living on a retail clerk's income having such a spacious flat in central London might be ludicrous, but it's not a plot hole.  In _Fantastic Voyage _(1966), a team of doctors and their submarine are miniaturized and placed inside a prominent scientist's body in order to treat him.  It's established early on that they have a limited amount of time before the shrink ray wears off and they all return to their normal size which would be disastrous for the poor scientist they're trying to save if they're still in his body.  By the end of the movie, both the submarine and the body of one of the crew is left in the scientists while the rest escape before they expand.  By the logic already established, the scientist should be dead as the remaining equipment in his body rapidly expand to their normal size.  That's a plot hole.


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## trappedslider (Apr 1, 2022)

MGibster said:


> Neither one of those are plot holes.  A plot hole is something in a story that goes against the established logic of the story's plot.  The idea of someone living on a retail clerk's income having such a spacious flat in central London might be ludicrous, but it's not a plot hole.  In _Fantastic Voyage _(1966), a team of doctors and their submarine are miniaturized and placed inside a prominent scientist's body in order to treat him.  It's established early on that they have a limited amount of time before the shrink ray wears off and they all return to their normal size which would be disastrous for the poor scientist they're trying to save if they're still in his body.  By the end of the movie, both the submarine and the body of one of the crew is left in the scientists while the rest escape before they expand.  By the logic already established, the scientist should be dead as the remaining equipment in his body rapidly expand to their normal size.  That's a plot hole.


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## Dire Bare (Apr 2, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Two plot holes in Moon knight: Oscar Isaac saying he can’t date anyone because the ankle restraints on his bed are a red flag and the other is him renting that apartment in Central London while working in a gift shop.



I noticed the too-nice apartment myself, although that's very Hollywood. Not sure if they'll explain it, but in my head, I decided Mark takes care of Steven . . . replacing dead goldfish, subsidizing a nice apartment, asking hot tour guides out on dates . . .


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## pukunui (Apr 2, 2022)

Finally sat down and watched the first episode. That was fantastic! 

The idea that Ethan Hawke's character walks around with broken glass in his shoes is nuts!

Looking forward to the next one.


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## Dire Bare (Apr 2, 2022)

pukunui said:


> The idea that Ethan Hawke's character walks around with broken glass in his shoes is nuts!



That opening scene nearly did me in . . . oof, hard to watch!


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## Stalker0 (Apr 2, 2022)

Dire Bare said:


> That opening scene nearly did me in . . . oof, hard to watch!



One of the best intros to a guy I have seen in a while. Within 1 minute you knew how both methodical and dedicated this guy was.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Apr 2, 2022)

Dire Bare said:


> That opening scene nearly did me in . . . oof, hard to watch!



My first thought was "Wait, is this seriously how they're introducing the villain of this show? Wow. They really are!"

It's amazing how one scene like that, which had no dialogue, was able to convey so much about a character in such a short amount of time.


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## Paul Farquhar (Apr 2, 2022)

Dire Bare said:


> I noticed the too-nice apartment myself, although that's very Hollywood. Not sure if they'll explain it, but in my head, I decided Mark takes care of Steven . . . replacing dead goldfish, subsidizing a nice apartment, asking hot tour guides out on dates . . .



Yes, the flat would be insanely expensive, but there are lots of ways to explain how Steven came to have it, especially given his strange background.

I didn't think the interior was as well researched as some of the London things though. I worked in buildings in walking distance of the British Museum, and they are mostly converted Victorian townhouses, with high ceilings, lots of light, and twisty floorplans.


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## Janx (Apr 2, 2022)

Dire Bare said:


> I noticed the too-nice apartment myself, although that's very Hollywood. Not sure if they'll explain it, but in my head, I decided Mark takes care of Steven . . . replacing dead goldfish, subsidizing a nice apartment, asking hot tour guides out on dates . . .



too nice?

Everything was worn and faded. The flooring didn't even have any gloss or stain left.

This is classic Hollywood slum house where nobody has the money for a bucket of paint.

Now I'm sure even that is too expensive in real world money for a gift shoppist to afford, but I wouldn't call it nice


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## MarkB (Apr 2, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I didn't think the interior was as well researched as some of the London things though. I worked in buildings in walking distance of the British Museum, and they are mostly converted Victorian townhouses, with high ceilings, lots of light, and twisty floorplans.



Well, he is a bus commute away.

We get a brief glimpse of the area outside his building, but I couldn't spot anything that would place it more precisely than "fairly central London".


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## Umbran (Apr 2, 2022)

Janx said:


> This is classic Hollywood slum house where nobody has the money for a bucket of paint.




Yeah, the thing looks like someone's spare attic space.


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## Umbran (Apr 2, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Within 1 minute you knew how both methodical and dedicated this guy was.




Some might say "dedicated".  Others might say, "dangerously fanatical".


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## Paul Farquhar (Apr 2, 2022)

Janx said:


> too nice?
> 
> Everything was worn and faded. The flooring didn't even have any gloss or stain left.
> 
> ...



Which is the problem. If you could afford a flat in that location, you could easily afford to have first rate interior décor!


MarkB said:


> We get a brief glimpse of the area outside his building, but I couldn't spot anything that would place it more precisely than "fairly central London".



I thought it looked like it might be around Seven Dials, or maybe Soho. Either of which you could walk or bus to the BM, depending on how energetic you felt.


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## Rabulias (Apr 2, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Which is the problem. If you could afford a flat in that location, you could easily afford to have first rate interior décor!



Maybe, but if you spend all of your disposable income on rent/mortgage (living in a location above your means), you might not have any left for decor. I think others are correct though that Marc has a source of funds/income that supports Steven's housing. It would be funny if Marc has a very nice and well-appointed apartment in the same building!


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## Ryujin (Apr 2, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> Maybe, but if you spend all of your disposable income on rent/mortgage (living in a location above your means), you might not have any left for decor. I think others are correct though that Marc has a source of funds/income that supports Steven's housing. It would be funny if Marc has a very nice and well-appointed apartment in the same building!



Downstairs neighbour, renting out his attic for a cheap rate


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## Umbran (Apr 2, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Downstairs neighbour, renting out his attic for a cheap rate




Who Steven strangely never sees...


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## Davies (Apr 2, 2022)

Hypothesis: The reason that "a good man" registered thus in [Ethan Hawke]'s judgment is that he was [going to be] killed during Steven's escape, and so would not live long enough to sin.

Theory: Ammit intends to consume all humanity and thus prevent them from sinning. Whether [Ethan Hawke] knows this is not clear.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 2, 2022)

Were you all even watching that closely when he thought there was an earthquake or something going on? He ran out of his apartment and got into an elevator on the 5th floor, which in England means the 6th floor of the building. He lives on the top floor of a six-story apartment building, with many other apartments besides his on his floor, so it is not some run-down attic or something.


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## Ryujin (Apr 2, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Were you all even watching that closely when he thought there was an earthquake or something going on? He ran out of his apartment and got into an elevator on the 5th floor, which in England means the 6th floor of the building. He lives on the top floor of a six-story apartment building, with many other apartments besides his on his floor, so it is not some run-down attic or something.



OK, so main alter owns the building then.


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## Stalker0 (Apr 2, 2022)

Inthink people might be reading in too much the nice apartment. It is VERY common for people in shows to have way nicer places than they have any right to. Happens all the time.


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## Lidgar (Apr 2, 2022)

I feel like there was something more about that elevator scene with the other lady and the 5th floor. Can’t quite put my finger on it. Need to rewatch it.


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## Morrus (Apr 2, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Inthink people might be reading in too much the nice apartment. It is VERY common for people in shows to have way nicer places than they have any right to. Happens all the time.



Yeah, inappropriately large apartments are basically the default, especially for those living in the centre of major cities.


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## Umbran (Apr 2, 2022)

Davies said:


> Theory: Ammit intends to consume all humanity and thus prevent them from sinning. Whether [Ethan Hawke] knows this is not clear.




I wouldn't include the "prevent them from sinning" part.  Traditionally, Ammit doesn't want to keep you from sinning - Ammit _gets to eat the hearts_ of those who have sinned.  You sinning is good (and tasty) for Ammit.

We could speculate why she's been waiting for people to die naturally before, and now isn't.  Maybe with the creation of the multiverse, the walls between Here and There are weaker, and she no longer has to wait for death?  Or there's now more competition, so she's desperate to eat?



Morrus said:


> Yeah, inappropriately large apartments are basically the default, especially for those living in the centre of major cities.




Anyone here ever try to get a modern high definition movie camera rig into a legitimately small apartment?  They're inappropriately large because that detail is less a problem than shooting in small spaces.


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## Rabulias (Apr 2, 2022)

Lidgar said:


> I feel like there was something more about that elevator scene with the other lady and the 5th floor. Can’t quite but my finger on it. Need to rewatch it.



Until the interaction with the goldfish and the pet store, I was thinking that the apartment (and even the sleepwalk-prevention procedures) were representing when the Steven personality was dormant. Marc replacing Gus tells me that the apartment is a real space.


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## Morrus (Apr 2, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Anyone here ever try to get a modern high definition movie camera rig into a legitimately small apartment?  They're inappropriately large because that detail is less a problem than shooting in small spaces.



Yeah, I understand why.


----------



## Davies (Apr 2, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I wouldn't include the "prevent them from sinning" part.  Traditionally, Ammit doesn't want to keep you from sinning - Ammit _gets to eat the hearts_ of those who have sinned.  You sinning is good (and tasty) for Ammit.



But [Ethan Hawke] portrays her freedom as preventing sin in his motive rant, and claims that the judgment on the old woman could be for something that she would do if she lived.


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## Tonguez (Apr 2, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I wouldn't include the "prevent them from sinning" part.  Traditionally, Ammit doesn't want to keep you from sinning - Ammit _gets to eat the hearts_ of those who have sinned.  You sinning is good (and tasty) for Ammit.
> 
> We could speculate why she's been waiting for people to die naturally before, and now isn't.  Maybe with the creation of the multiverse, the walls between Here and There are weaker, and she no longer has to wait for death?  Or there's now more competition, so she's desperate to eat?



For ancient Egyptians life was about living in harmony with divine law (Maat) and sin was about Ingratitude as that led to imbalance. So it could simply be that the world is out of balance and Ammit and her champion have taken it on themselves to punish the ungrateful - and thus restore universal Maat.  
maybe The old woman was punished because she wanted more, whereas the ‘good man’ was satisfied and just happy to be there


----------



## pukunui (Apr 2, 2022)

So Layla has been trying to get hold of Marc for months. Do we think she stopped being able to reach him when whatever it was that caused the dissociative identity disorder happened? And that, therefore, Steven has potentially only existed for a few months? Unless he was previously just a deep cover fake that Marc had already developed who has now taken on a life of his own?

With the tour guide / date thing, it’s obvious Marc is the one who asked her out, right? I’m guessing he would have imitated Steven’s accent so as not to confuse her by having Steven suddenly sound American.


----------



## Morrus (Apr 2, 2022)

Is Marc the same identity as Moon Night? Or is it Steven, Marc, and Moon Knight?


----------



## Tonguez (Apr 2, 2022)

pukunui said:


> So Layla has been trying to get hold of Marc for months. Do we think she stopped being able to reach him when whatever it was that caused the dissociative identity disorder happened? And that, therefore, Steven has potentially only existed for a few months? Unless he was previously just a deep cover fake that Marc had already developed who has now taken on a life of his own?





Morrus said:


> Is Marc the same identity as Moon Night? Or is it Steven, Marc, and Moon Knight?



what we do know is Marc is the hypercompetent mercenary who Khonsu chose and who knows how to use the Moonknight powers, why Steven keeps asserting his presence though thats currently the mystery.

 one of the things the character writers play with is whether Marc had DID before he first encountered Khonsu or if the DID is a result of Khonsu.
We do know Marc and Steven are among the earliest personalities to manifest, but in comics even the Marc persona has been speculated on.


----------



## Ryujin (Apr 2, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I wouldn't include the "prevent them from sinning" part.  Traditionally, Ammit doesn't want to keep you from sinning - Ammit _gets to eat the hearts_ of those who have sinned.  You sinning is good (and tasty) for Ammit.
> 
> We could speculate why she's been waiting for people to die naturally before, and now isn't.  Maybe with the creation of the multiverse, the walls between Here and There are weaker, and she no longer has to wait for death?  Or there's now more competition, so she's desperate to eat?
> 
> ...



My film making friends tend to have a variety of wide angle lenses for a reason.


----------



## Ryujin (Apr 2, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> what we do know is Marc is the hypercompetent mercenary who Khonsu chose and who knows how to use the Moonknight powers, why Steven keeps asserting his presence though thats currently the mystery.
> 
> one of the things the character writers play with is whether Marc had DID before he first encountered Khonsu or if the DID is a result of Khonsu.
> We do know Marc and Grant are among the earliest personalities to manifest, but in comics even the Marc persona has been speculated on.



Going waaay back Marc was the original personality and the fracture the result of Khonshu 'blessing' him with the powers of Moon Knight.


----------



## Morrus (Apr 2, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> what we do know is Marc is the hypercompetent mercenary who Khonsu chose and who knows how to use the Moonknight powers, why Steven keeps asserting his presence though thats currently the mystery.
> 
> one of the things the character writers play with is whether Marc had DID before he first encountered Khonsu or if the DID is a result of Khonsu.
> We do know Marc and Grant are among the earliest personalities to manifest, but in comics even the Marc persona has been speculated on.



I couldn't make head nor tails of that post -- but my question was are there 2 personalities (S, M/MK) or 3 (S, M, MK)? (I understand there may be more later).


----------



## Ryujin (Apr 2, 2022)

Morrus said:


> I couldn't make head nor tails of that post -- but my question was are there 2 personalities (S, M/MK) or 3 (S, M, MK)? (I understand there may be more later).



There are so far two distinct personalities (Steven and Marc). Moon Knight is the expression of the powers that Khonshu gave to Marc, the mercenary. In basic terms Marc is the primary personality and the secret identity of Moon Knight.


----------



## Tonguez (Apr 2, 2022)

Morrus said:


> I couldn't make head nor tails of that post -- but my question was are there 2 personalities (S, M/MK) or 3 (S, M, MK)? (I understand there may be more later).



Ok, _so far_ Marc = Moonknight

We havent seen Marc outside of costume


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 2, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Ok, _so far_ Marc = Moonknight
> 
> We havent seen Marc outside of costume




We saw him in the bathroom mirrors before the fight.


----------



## Ryujin (Apr 2, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> We saw him in the bathroom mirrors before the fight.



Which is Steven seeing him in his own head, presumably, rather than a physical manifestation. Similar to how he saw Khonshu in the dark hallway of his apartment building, but the neighbour didn't.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 2, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Which is Steven seeing him in his own head, presumably, rather than a physical manifestation. Similar to how he saw Khonshu in the dark hallway of his apartment building, but the neighbour didn't.




Yep, that is a classic way TV and movies have shown the dual/multiple personalities and let them talk to each other. You can see the difference in the two personalities by looking at Oscar's face as Steven in the bathroom and as Marc in the reflection in the mirror. Bumbling fool vs hardened mercenary.


----------



## pukunui (Apr 2, 2022)

Was the bird skull headed thing in the hallway meant to be Khonshu? I wondered if that was the case.

What was the monster in the museum at the end? Some minion of Ammit summoned by Ethan Hawke’s character, I presume. Do we know his character’s name yet? I can’t remember.


----------



## Tonguez (Apr 2, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Was the bird skull headed thing in the hallway meant to be Khonshu? I wondered if that was the case.
> 
> What was the monster in the museum at the end? Some minion of Ammit summoned by Ethan Hawke’s character, I presume. Do we know his character’s name yet? I can’t remember.




his name is Harrow (Dr. Arthur Harrow)

and yes the birdskull thing is Khonsu


----------



## Tonguez (Apr 2, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Was the bird skull headed thing in the hallway meant to be Khonshu? I wondered if that was the case.
> 
> What was the monster in the museum at the end? Some minion of Ammit summoned by Ethan Hawke’s character, I presume. Do we know his character’s name yet? I can’t remember.




his name is Harrow (Dr. Arthur Harrow)

and yes the birdskull thing is Khonsu


----------



## pukunui (Apr 2, 2022)

Thanks


----------



## Umbran (Apr 3, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> In basic terms Marc is the primary personality....




So, we ought to be careful here.  Steve has a regular job.  Either high-priced mercenary Marc Spector spends a lot of time as a guy in a souvenir shop, or Steve has been the one in control of the body most of the time recently.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 3, 2022)

Umbran said:


> So, we ought to be careful here.  Steve has a regular job.  Either high-priced mercenary Marc Spector spends a lot of time as a guy in a souvenir shop, or Steve has been the one in control of the body most of the time recently.




Yeah, Marc is the original personality, but as Layla said to him on the burner phone, he has been out of touch with her for months, and who knows how many months that is, so Steven has been the primary personality for that long for sure.


----------



## Umbran (Apr 3, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> There are so far two distinct personalities (Steven and Marc). Moon Knight is the expression of the powers that Khonshu gave to Marc, the mercenary.




This is my understanding.  I have gotten another tidbit that is a bit of a spoiler...



Spoiler: Don't look if you don't want to know



You may have seen this image in the promos - it is "Mr. Knight".  When Mark attempts to manifest the power, he gets Moon Knight.  Supposedly, when Steven manifests the power, he gets Mr. Knight.


----------



## Davies (Apr 3, 2022)

Spoiler: About that



In the comics, Mr. Knight is a somewhat more cerebral version of the Moon Knight persona, more Sherlock Holmes and less a guy who beats the naughty word out of people and thoroughly enjoys it.


----------



## Umbran (Apr 3, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Yeah, Marc is the original personality




As noted above - the personality that bore the name in the past may not really be the same as the one who uses the name currently.  

With real dissociative identity disorder, you don't generally have a healthy person go through massive trauma, and develop new personalities but keep the original normal, healthy, and intact.  The original Marc Spector _shattered_.  One of the current personalities uses the name, but he probably won't be really the same person, any more than Steven is the original.

I mean, we can't go too much by the real disorder, but it seems reasonable for the comic book structure.


----------



## Ryujin (Apr 3, 2022)

Umbran said:


> So, we ought to be careful here.  Steve has a regular job.  Either high-priced mercenary Marc Spector spends a lot of time as a guy in a souvenir shop, or Steve has been the one in control of the body most of the time recently.



I was talking about the comics Moon Knight. Of course they could have changed things up for the series, or we might find out that Marc was "laying low for a while, to take the heat off."


----------



## Janx (Apr 3, 2022)

Umbran said:


> So, we ought to be careful here.  Steve has a regular job.  Either high-priced mercenary Marc Spector spends a lot of time as a guy in a souvenir shop, or Steve has been the one in control of the body most of the time recently.



yeah, that's the p[art that has to make sense as a solid reality basis.  He'd be fired already if his missing time (as Mark) was large enough for Mark to "get stuff done" without super-impacting Steven's dayjob.

noticeable impacts not withstanding that caused Steven to take the steps he had.


----------



## MarkB (Apr 3, 2022)

Steven does seem to be becoming a more dominant persona than they expected. He surfaces unexpectedly for a long time during their mission to retrieve the scarab, and Mark is only able to grab control back for brief periods. And at the end, Mark has to ask permission to take control in order to save them.

So far, I'm strongly reminded of Jane from Doom Patrol. I wonder whether this character could develop in that direction, gaining additional personae each with their own power-set.


----------



## Rabulias (Apr 3, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Steven does seem to be becoming a more dominant persona than they expected. He surfaces unexpectedly for a long time during their mission to retrieve the scarab, and Mark is only able to grab control back for brief periods. And at the end, Mark has to ask permission to take control in order to save them.



Though it is interesting to note at least one museum employee is in Harrow's cult. Quite the coincidence. Maybe the Steven persona's job was a way to get into the museum?


----------



## MarkB (Apr 3, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> Though it is interesting to note at least one museum employee is in Harrow's cult. Quite the coincidence. Maybe the Steven persona's job was a way to get into the museum?



Good call. The alternative of the classic villain "we have people everywhere" trope is still a strong possibility, though.


----------



## Dire Bare (Apr 3, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Steven does seem to be becoming a more dominant persona than they expected. He surfaces unexpectedly for a long time during their mission to retrieve the scarab, and Mark is only able to grab control back for brief periods. And at the end, Mark has to ask permission to take control in order to save them.
> 
> So far, I'm strongly reminded of Jane from Doom Patrol. I wonder whether this character could develop in that direction, gaining additional personae each with their own power-set.



Watching Jane interact with her different personalities is one of the best parts of Doom Patrol!!


----------



## Umbran (Apr 4, 2022)

MarkB said:


> So far, I'm strongly reminded of Jane from Doom Patrol. I wonder whether this character could develop in that direction, gaining additional personae each with their own power-set.




That would be a pretty big departure from the comics, and we only have six episodes, so I'm guessing not.  

For most of his comics history, Moon Knight doesn't have much for powers - he's generally a Batman analog.  He's got physical training, gadgets, and money out the wazoo (in the comics, Steven Grant is the billionaire businessman persona).  He gets occasional visions from Khonshu, but those are mostly to punt him in the right general direction.  He has, sometimes had a boost in strength, speed, and endurance that varied with the phase of the moon.

So, not having powers, Moon Knight gets his butt kicked sometimes.  Khonshu has made a habit of resurrecting Marc.


----------



## Tonguez (Apr 4, 2022)

Umbran said:


> That would be a pretty big departure from the comics, and we only have six episodes, so I'm guessing not.
> 
> For most of his comics history, Moon Knight doesn't have much for powers - he's generally a Batman analog.  He's got physical training, gadgets, and money out the wazoo (in the comics, Steven Grant is the billionaire businessman persona).  He gets occasional visions from Khonshu, but those are mostly to punt him in the right general direction.  He has, sometimes had a boost in strength, speed, and endurance that varied with the phase of the moon.
> 
> So, not having powers, Moon Knight gets his butt kicked sometimes.  Khonshu has made a habit of resurrecting Marc.



yeah for a long time being an irregular reader of his comics I was under the impression that ressurection was his only power and everything else - including his strength and stamina etc - a result of his recklessness due to knowing he cant die.


----------



## Umbran (Apr 4, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> yeah for a long time being an irregular reader of his comics I was under the impression that ressurection was his only power and everything else - including his strength and stamina etc - a result of his recklessness due to knowing he cant die.




Yes, for a while there was a strong suggestion that he exceeded human norms via a form of self-hypnosis.


----------



## Blue (Apr 5, 2022)

Umbran said:


> "Guy named Otto Octavius ends up with eight limbs.  What are the odds?"



Eight to one.  Against.


----------



## Blue (Apr 5, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> And the idea that the moon god would pick a bad ass merc to be their champion rather than a gift shop person makes a bit more sense



Steven may work at a gift shop, but when he was talking about the problems with the Egyptian pantheon on the poster he seemed quite knowledgeable.  That's probably a rarer ability than how to fight in modern day.


----------



## Blue (Apr 5, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Yeah, the thing looks like someone's spare attic space.



My wife made the same call, so you're in good company.


----------



## Tonguez (Apr 5, 2022)

Blue said:


> Steven may work at a gift shop, but when he was talking about the problems with the Egyptian pantheon on the poster he seemed quite knowledgeable.  That's probably a rarer ability than how to fight in modern day.



Not really, amateur Egyptology was a big geekdom up to the 1960s and most would know of the Ennead (which was a Latin form of the Greek translation of the Egyptian Pesedjet (Nine) - being the Nine Royal gods of Heliopolis) 

Steven is an Egyptology geek, but so far his knowledge is pretty standard


----------



## pukunui (Apr 5, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Not really, amateur Egyptology was a big geekdom up to the 1960s and most would know of the Ennead (which was a Latin form of the Greek translation of the Egyptian Pesedjet (Nine) - being the Nine Royal gods of Heliopolis)
> 
> Steven is an Egyptology geek, but so far his knowledge is pretty standard



Yeah, and he is shown trying to keep himself awake at night by reading up on Egyptian mythology.


----------



## fba827 (Apr 6, 2022)

( I know ep 2 out today, but having only seen ep 1 so far)
My nephew watching with me asked if the ‘mothers voice mail’ was just a voicemail to nick fury to show him at a tag at the end of the season to show him at a desk listening to messages.


----------



## MarkB (Apr 6, 2022)

Strong second episode. The QR code on the storage locker goes here, by the way:









						Free Moon Knight Comics Presented by Marvel Unlimited
					

Read a free Moon Knight comic book that inspired the series streaming exclusively on Disney+ presented by Marvel Unlimited.




					www.marvel.com


----------



## Tonguez (Apr 6, 2022)

Check it out bruv, second episode is like totally bonkers innit bruv?

and Mr Knight brought some slapstick comedy to the grimdark story

Wagwaan!!! We was thinking Moonknight was Jewish when all along he’s like a total chav


----------



## wicked cool (Apr 6, 2022)

my opinion this is becoming the best new mcu show. already hoping for a crossover. 2 episodes in and its way better than say venom 2

question-Do the people with tattoos have free will? are the people failing the test drained for food? is the bad guy holding back (seems like the cult is) ?


----------



## DeviousQuail (Apr 6, 2022)

Solid second episode. Looking forward to more now that we're changing locations. Also, Khonshu is a real jerk. No wonder Marc was trying to keep Steven out of it and Layla away from all this nonsense.


----------



## MarkB (Apr 6, 2022)

DeviousQuail said:


> Also, Khonshu is a real jerk.



Yeah, definitely not getting any good-vs-evil vibe from this squabble-by-proxy between ancient deities. They're mostly as bad as each other.

I did like Steven cutting to the chase in examining the implications of Ammit's methodology, and then taking a stand.

I can see a definite unwilling-partnership growing between Marc and Steven now that they're in Egypt. Marc's got more knowledge of what's going on and better fighting skills, but it's obvious from the conversation with Layla in the flat that he's woefully lacking in expertise when it comes to Egyptology, so he's going to need Steven's expertise pretty soon if he's trying to track down Ammit's tomb.


----------



## DeviousQuail (Apr 6, 2022)

MarkB said:


> I did like Steven cutting to the chase in examining the implications of Ammit's methodology, and then taking a stand.



Agreed. It's so obviously cruel and has the depth of a puddle. Steven could have cut it down a dozen different ways but we didn't have time for it so he picked dead kids to move things along.


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan (Apr 6, 2022)

I love how adamant Harrow was to defend the fact that he _*literally murders children*_ (and babies, presumably) when Steven was taking the moral high ground. Khonshu might not be a good guy, but his way is certainly better than Mister Thoughtcrime.


----------



## MarkB (Apr 6, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> I love how adamant Harrow was to defend the fact that he _*literally murders children*_ (and babies, presumably) when Steven was taking the moral high ground. Khonshu might not be a good guy, but his way is certainly better than Mister Thoughtcrime.



That remains to be seen. What does he consider to be evil deeds, and how does he punish them? I wouldn't be surprised if he's the "your crime is littering - the sentence is death!" type.


----------



## Stalker0 (Apr 6, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> I love how adamant Harrow was to defend the fact that he _*literally murders children*_ (and babies, presumably) when Steven was taking the moral high ground. Khonshu might not be a good guy, but his way is certainly better than Mister Thoughtcrime.



This was the one part of the episode I didn't like. I felt like "Mr Thoughtcrime" who is going for diplomacy would try a bit harder to justify his position.

Something as simple as "If I knew, with 100% certainty, that the child next to me would become the next hitler. That a million people, and there million children, would die and suffer horribly at his hands....wouldn't it be murder not to stop him when I could?".... something like that. Keep in mind, several modern legal systems have tenants that if you have foreknowledge of a crime, and do nothing about it, you can have some liability. Imagine if you actually could know with 100% certainty someone was going to commit an unspeakable crime....it could be argued you are morally and even legally compelled to stop them. Whether you want to buy that argument or not, at least give it the old college try. 

That said, I'm definately digging Ethan Hawke's character. He is both smooth and creepy, and the "former avatar" angle adds a lot of neat context between him and Steven/Marc. Also, a hell yeah to Lela, best sidekick we have had in a bit, comes in, kicks ass, stays loyal even though she really has reasons to leave, even tries to respond to "Steven" even though she probably thinks its a lie....yeah she's pretty cool so far.


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan (Apr 6, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> This was the one part of the episode I didn't like. I felt like "Mr Thoughtcrime" who is going for diplomacy would try a bit harder to justify his position.
> 
> Something as simple as "If I knew, with 100% certainty, that the child next to me would become the next hitler. That a million people, and there million children, would die and suffer horribly at his hands....wouldn't it be murder not to stop him when I could?".... something like that. Keep in mind, several modern legal systems have tenants that if you have foreknowledge of a crime, and do nothing about it, you can have some liability.



Well, he basically did say that last episode. With the whole "if Ammit were in charge, Hitler never would have happened" speech in the museum. He didn't explicitly evoke the "I would murder Baby Hitler if given the chance," but it was pretty clear that's what he was talking about. I don't think it would really be necessary for him to say that again, especially because just a day has passed for Steven since he last talked with Harrow about this. 

And he's also probably going to talk about this more in the show. There are 4 more episodes, after all.


----------



## Davies (Apr 6, 2022)

Davies said:


> Hypothesis: The reason that "a good man" registered thus in [Ethan Hawke]'s judgment is that he was [going to be] killed during Steven's escape, and so would not live long enough to sin.
> 
> Theory: Ammit intends to consume all humanity and thus prevent them from sinning. Whether [Ethan Hawke] knows this is not clear.



Continuation: Ammit intending to consume all of humanity and thus prevent any human from ever sinning logically follows from the premises of Arthur's philosophy as expressed in this episode.

Theory: He has _not_ realized this, based on his statement to the individual from whom he took the scarab.


----------



## Ryujin (Apr 6, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> This was the one part of the episode I didn't like. I felt like "Mr Thoughtcrime" who is going for diplomacy would try a bit harder to justify his position.
> 
> Something as simple as "If I knew, with 100% certainty, that the child next to me would become the next hitler. That a million people, and there million children, would die and suffer horribly at his hands....wouldn't it be murder not to stop him when I could?".... something like that. Keep in mind, several modern legal systems have tenants that if you have foreknowledge of a crime, and do nothing about it, you can have some liability. Imagine if you actually could know with 100% certainty someone was going to commit an unspeakable crime....it could be argued you are morally and even legally compelled to stop them. Whether you want to buy that argument or not, at least give it the old college try.
> 
> That said, I'm definately digging Ethan Hawke's character. He is both smooth and creepy, and the "former avatar" angle adds a lot of neat context between him and Steven/Marc. Also, a hell yeah to Lela, best sidekick we have had in a bit, comes in, kicks ass, stays loyal even though she really has reasons to leave, even tries to respond to "Steven" even though she probably thinks its a lie....yeah she's pretty cool so far.



You might be digging a little too deeply here. The character of Harrow rings true for me, in saying so little to support his position beyond the very basics. After all; would a true fanatic think that he needed to explain in excruciating detail that's he's "right", when he's so obviously "right" that everyone should just see it? His powers speak to the masses in the only way that's needed.


----------



## pukunui (Apr 6, 2022)

Excellent second episode!


----------



## Rabulias (Apr 7, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> You might be digging a little too deeply here. The character of Harrow rings true for me, in saying so little to support his position beyond the very basics. After all; would a true fanatic think that he needed to explain in excruciating detail that's he's "right", when he's so obviously "right" that everyone should just see it? His powers speak to the masses in the only way that's needed.



I also wonder how long Harrow served as the Fist of Khonshu. It seems to be very taxing and it might have been instrumental in Harrow's conversion to Ammit.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 7, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> I also wonder how long Harrow served as the Fist of Khonshu. It seems to be very taxing and it might have been instrumental in Harrow's conversion to Ammit.




He made a point of Khonshu delivering justice after the fact. I wonder if he will reveal that he lost loved ones in a crime and that is why he went all extreme with Ammit?


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan (Apr 7, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> He made a point of Khonshu delivering justice after the fact. I wonder if he will reveal that he lost loved ones in a crime and that is why he went all extreme with Ammit?



Even better if he has some reason to believe that Khonshu knew the crime was going to happen and refused to prevent it. That could explain why he's so devoted to Ammit.


----------



## pukunui (Apr 7, 2022)

I'm liking what you guys are thinking.


----------



## Ryujin (Apr 7, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> I also wonder how long Harrow served as the Fist of Khonshu. It seems to be very taxing and it might have been instrumental in Harrow's conversion to Ammit.



Clearly long enough to start fitting the "jaded cop" stereotype.


----------



## Ryujin (Apr 7, 2022)

Is anyone else beginning to wonder if Ammit's 'judging' might be a bit more arbitrary, than actually predetermining evil acts? Harrow seemed awful sure that the random guy who handed him the scarab wouldn't be around for "the future that we'll make."


----------



## pukunui (Apr 7, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Is anyone else beginning to wonder if Ammit's 'judging' might be a bit more arbitrary, than actually predetermining evil acts? Harrow seemed awful sure that the random guy who handed him the scarab wouldn't be around for "the future that we'll make."



I'm not sure that was Ammit's judgment. That came across as more of "You've seen too much so now you have to die" moment to me.


----------



## trappedslider (Apr 7, 2022)

Moon Knight’s secret Easter egg is free comics
					

Hidden QR codes point the way




					www.polygon.com


----------



## Ryujin (Apr 8, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I'm not sure that was Ammit's judgment. That came across as more of "You've seen too much so now you have to die" moment to me.



But delivered in the same manner as Ammit's judgement.


----------



## pukunui (Apr 8, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> But delivered in the same manner as Ammit's judgement.



Perhaps the swinging cane is just for show.


----------



## Dire Bare (Apr 8, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Perhaps the swinging cane is just for show.



No, Harrow is a true believer. They are the most frightening of villains.


----------



## pukunui (Apr 8, 2022)

Dire Bare said:


> No, Harrow is a true believer. They are the most frightening of villains.



I meant that maybe the swinging of the cane was for show for those watching but isn't necessary in order for Harrow to render Ammit's judgment, hence why he didn't bother with it when causing the homeless man to die.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 8, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I meant that maybe the swinging of the cane was for show for those watching but isn't necessary in order for Harrow to render Ammit's judgment, hence why he didn't bother with it when causing the homeless man to die.




Yeah, the real action is the tattoo of the scales on his arm. They showed it in the first episode actually moving as the cane swung, so the cane is just to distract the person being judged from the supernatural movement of his tattoo.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Apr 8, 2022)

I have to say, I think Ammit's endgame is "kill everyone, it's the only way to be sure".


----------



## pukunui (Apr 8, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I have to say, I think Ammit's endgame is "kill everyone, it's the only way to be sure".



She could team up with Ultron.


----------



## Mezuka (Apr 8, 2022)

I love the actor but the series is not very interesting so far.


----------



## Umbran (Apr 8, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Is anyone else beginning to wonder if Ammit's 'judging' might be a bit more arbitrary, than actually predetermining evil acts?




My recollection (which may be flawed) wasn't that it was predetermining evil acts - it was, in more classicly appropriate for Ammit, weighing the heart, telling us if they were an evil _person_.  The assumption being that if we get rid of all the evil people, there will be no more evil acts.  



Ryujin said:


> Harrow seemed awful sure that the random guy who handed him the scarab wouldn't be around for "the future that we'll make."




Well, yeah.  A homeless guy wandering the streets is not in much of a position to be a saint.  His heart will be heavy.  Harrow's justice will fall more heavily on the poor and destitute.


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## Stalker0 (Apr 9, 2022)

I don't think I buy that Ammits endgame is to kill everyone, we have already seen a person being judged and found "good" and allowed to live, so its not like Ammit thinks everyone needs to be wiped out.


----------



## Umbran (Apr 9, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> I don't think I buy that Ammits endgame is to kill everyone, we have already seen a person being judged and found "good" and allowed to live, so its not like Ammit thinks everyone needs to be wiped out.




Well, for now, anyway.  But, you figure that Ammit will keep an even, steady keel... forever?  

But, even so - unless Ammit can actually see the one and only future for each person, that means that innocents will be killed in the name of maybe.  And that's not really acceptable.


----------



## MarkB (Apr 9, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Well, for now, anyway.  But, you figure that Ammit will keep an even, steady keel... forever?
> 
> But, even so - unless Ammit can actually see the one and only future for each person, that means that innocents will be killed in the name of maybe.  And that's not really acceptable.



And since they can be killed, logically it isn't their one and only future.


----------



## Janx (Apr 9, 2022)

Ammit is lying. She gets hungry and plays eenie-meenie for a meal.

My current hunch is that Steven is the alter. He may have started as a legend, a cover for Mark, but something happened, right around when Mark left Layla.


----------



## Stalker0 (Apr 9, 2022)

I'm actually eager to see some more Steven scenes with Layla, and for him to start digging in on how long she has been with Mark, etc. I feel like that could lead down the road of "wait, am I the alter?"


----------



## Umbran (Apr 9, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> I'm actually eager to see some more Steven scenes with Layla, and for him to start digging in on how long she has been with Mark, etc. I feel like that could lead down the road of "wait, am I the alter?"




So, note something - if the writers wanted Steven to realize that he's not "the original", Marc could just _tell him_.  There is no need for a long trail of realization on Steven's part.  But Marc rather pointedly hasn't done this.

My expectation is that their take on it is that while Marc still keeps the name, he's not really the original Marc Spector any more.  That man was traumatized until he shattered.  The one calling themselves Marc is _also an alter_, not the original.  The "original" is no longer present as a single individual, so the distinction isn't relevant.


----------



## Ryujin (Apr 9, 2022)

Janx said:


> Ammit is lying. She gets hungry and plays eenie-meenie for a meal.
> 
> My current hunch is that Steven is the alter. He may have started as a legend, a cover for Mark, but something happened, right around when Mark left Layla.



Marc was very worried about exposing Layla to danger. I suspect that the Steven alter was initially given control because knowing nothing about Layla, he couldn't expose her to Harrow and his search for the scarab.


----------



## Stalker0 (Apr 10, 2022)

Umbran said:


> So, note something - if the writers wanted Steven to realize that he's not "the original", Marc could just _tell him_.  There is no need for a long trail of realization on Steven's part.  But Marc rather pointedly hasn't done this.



That is plausible. An alternative explanation is that Marc does not think Steven could handle the stress of the realization (which considering how poorly Steven has reacted to some of the realization's so far....is not an unfair assessment).


----------



## MarkB (Apr 13, 2022)

Plenty going on in today's episode. Seems like there's at least one more persona, and we get lots more revelations about Khonshu and the other gods.


----------



## wicked cool (Apr 13, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Plenty going on in today's episode. Seems like there's at least one more persona, and we get lots more revelations about Khonshu and the other gods.



agreed on the 3rd.


----------



## MarkB (Apr 13, 2022)

The whole white-eye-flash thing combined with Egyptian deities felt very Stargate. Not sure if they were going for that, or just a coincidence.


----------



## Tonguez (Apr 13, 2022)

Layla ”it belongs in a museum - in Egypt!” had a nice opening, with her mother?

Marc/Steven and another personality - they gave a nice hint at someone more violent (even if its Disney violent)

avatars in the court - disappointed we didnt get animal headed gods
and this is yet another group who sat back and did nothing about Thanos!

purple sky lasers!


----------



## Rabulias (Apr 13, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Plenty going on in today's episode. Seems like there's at least one more persona, and we get lots more revelations about Khonshu and the other gods.





Tonguez said:


> Marc/Steven and another personality - they was a nice hint at someone more violent (even if its Disney violent)



Re: the third personality: Maybe an echo or remnant of Arthur's time as Khonshu's avatar?


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 13, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> Re: the third personality: Maybe an echo or remnant of Arthur's time as Khonshu's avatar?




Maybe a brand-new one that will use the name of Jake, who was Marc's cab-driving personality in the comics. I would not be surprised if they only kept the name, since in the comics, Steven is a millionaire playboy who funds everything, not a gift shop employee. But since there are three primary personalities in the comics, I was expecting a third to eventually show up in the series.

Or this third personality could represent the Dark Side of the Moon and his name is Floyd....Pink Floyd.


----------



## Ryujin (Apr 13, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Maybe a brand-new one that will use the name of Jake, who was Marc's cab-driving personality in the comics. I would not be surprised if they only kept the name, since in the comics, Steven is a millionaire playboy who funds everything, not a gift shop employee. But since there are three personalities in the comics, I was expecting a third to eventually show up in the series.



Well he had to become a millionaire _somehow_. I figure that selling Egyptian antiquities is a good way.


----------



## Tonguez (Apr 13, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Well he had to become a millionaire _somehow_. I figure that selling Egyptian antiquities is a good way.



And very British


----------



## Iholdthebananas (Apr 13, 2022)

I’m digging the series entirely. I was also pleasantly surprised to see a female lead character such a capable bad ass. There’s nothing about this show I don’t like.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 14, 2022)

Iholdthebananas said:


> I’m digging the series entirely. I was also pleasantly surprised to see a female lead character such a capable bad ass. There’s nothing about this show I don’t like.




There had to be a combat-oriented reason why Khonshu would replace Marc with her.


----------



## Older Beholder (Apr 14, 2022)

One of the more visually impressive episodes of a Marvel TV show since maybe WandaVision. 
I like Oscar Isaac's ability to switch between characters with just facial expressions.


----------



## Lidgar (Apr 14, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Or this third personality could represent the Dark Side of the Moon and his name is Floyd....Pink Floyd.



Ah, so *he’s *Pink!


----------



## Lidgar (Apr 14, 2022)

The Lizard Wizard said:


> One of the more visually impressive episodes of a Marvel TV show since maybe WandaVision.
> I like Oscar Isaac's ability to switch between characters with just facial expressions.



I had the same reaction- when he suddenly makes his eyes go wide with a “cheers!” Good stuff.


----------



## Davies (Apr 14, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> There had to be a combat-oriented reason why Khonshu would replace Marc with her.



Y'know, that's true ... but I half-way suspect that Khonshu was running a mind game on Spector when he threatened him with that.

Marc killed Layla's dad, right?


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 14, 2022)

Davies said:


> Marc killed Layla's dad, right?




Sounds like he was involved in it, but unsure whether directly or indirectly, though I assume we will find out in the next three episodes.


----------



## Lidgar (Apr 14, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Sounds like he was involved in it, but unsure whether directly or indirectly, though I assume we will find out in the next three episodes.



My impression is that it was the 3rd personality.


----------



## DeviousQuail (Apr 14, 2022)

I was hoping to see the gods, not their avatars but that's a minor thing. The Ennead clearly have some power but have chosen to be hands off with humanity. I wonder when that decision was made and how humanity could have abandoned them. I doubt we'll get an answer in this series but it's a nice bit of food for thought.


----------



## Tonguez (Apr 14, 2022)

DeviousQuail said:


> I was hoping to see the gods, not their avatars but that's a minor thing. The Ennead clearly have some power but have chosen to be hands off with humanity. I wonder when that decision was made and how humanity could have abandoned them. I doubt we'll get an answer in this series but it's a nice bit of food for thought.



Well the last Classic Egyptian temple was in use until circa AD 550, though the Cult of Isis persisted longer (Isis gets mentioned in medieval European text). The temple site at Philae was finally sunk by the Aswan Dam - so I suppose the Ennead gods do have a case about being abandonned/forgotten.

For an MCU link the gods magic manifested with a purple glow - the same one used by Agatha Harkness, and so far theorised to be linked to the Dark Dimension.
It’d be interesting to see if the Overvoid is revisted in future MCU stories.

*ps* - just remembered Wakandan Spirit World had a purple filter too, in comics the Wakanda gods came from Egypt


----------



## Stalker0 (Apr 14, 2022)

So after so many marvel movies and shows where you could naturally ask "Well why didn't they bring in Avenger X or superhero Y" we actually have a show that answers that question.

Marc asks the extremely obvious question.... "well if the world is about to end by an egyptian god, can't we get the other gods to help?"

And instead of hand-waving it....we actually get some screentime to answer it! It was a cool scene, and actually solved the issue to a reasonable satisfaction.

Yeah this series is really good so far. Layla is fast becoming my favorite side kick character, and of course Oscar Isaac is killing it. I also love that while Moon Knight is not a particularly strong hero by our current superhero standards, we are getting some godly flexes like the Eclipse and the night sky change that show that when a god wants to throw down, they still have juice in the tank.


----------



## Umbran (Apr 14, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> Re: the third personality: Maybe an echo or remnant of Arthur's time as Khonshu's avatar?




Why would _Arthur's_ time as the avatar create a personality in Marc?


----------



## Umbran (Apr 14, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Layla ”it belongs in a museum - in Egypt!” had a nice opening, with her mother?




How to say, "My background is... complicated," by implication, rather than explication.



Tonguez said:


> and this is yet another group who sat back and did nothing about Thanos!




Yes, well... why would they?  They don't seem to have a lot of stake in the world....
...and probably don't live in our Universe to be directly impacted by the Snap.


----------



## billd91 (Apr 14, 2022)

Lidgar said:


> My impression is that it was the 3rd personality.



I don't think so. Marc doesn't know who the 3rd personality is at this point. He's just discovering him. Whereas it's clear Marc knows something more about Layla's dad.


----------



## Stalker0 (Apr 14, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Yes, well... why would they?  They don't seem to have a lot of stake in the world....
> ...and probably don't live in our Universe to be directly impacted by the Snap.



Yeah, this is one of most believable "why weren't they there" stories yet. The gods are like "humanity gave us up, we really don't give a crap about them, but stick around to watch....like their own reality tv"


One interesting tie in would be with the eternals, as its highly likely the Eternals were in Egypt at some point. Did they have any encounters with the Egyptian gods or the "moon knight" of that time? (assuming their was one). Don't know if we will ever get an answer, right now they seem content to keep things self contained, but it is Marvel....I would be shocked if we didn't have something in the last episode that hooked this in to the greater phase 4, even if its just a cut-away scene or something.


----------



## Stalker0 (Apr 14, 2022)

Oh did anyone else catch the Madripoor reference (Falcon and Winter soldier)? Apparantely the super rich guy and Layla may have had an encounter there.


----------



## MarkB (Apr 14, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Yeah, this is one of most believable "why weren't they there" stories yet. The gods are like "humanity gave us up, we really don't give a crap about them, but stick around to watch....like their own reality tv"



I wonder how many of their avatars got Snapped - and then found themselves out of a job when they were unSnapped.


----------



## Mezuka (Apr 14, 2022)

If you are in the desert at night, why do you turn your back to the only source of illumination to solve a puzzle made of brown parchment pieces?

Mark/Steven/Third guy: 'We have Darkvision!'


----------



## Ryujin (Apr 14, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Yeah, this is one of most believable "why weren't they there" stories yet. The gods are like "humanity gave us up, we really don't give a crap about them, but stick around to watch....like their own reality tv"
> 
> 
> One interesting tie in would be with the eternals, as its highly likely the Eternals were in Egypt at some point. Did they have any encounters with the Egyptian gods or the "moon knight" of that time? (assuming their was one). Don't know if we will ever get an answer, right now they seem content to keep things self contained, but it is Marvel....I would be shocked if we didn't have something in the last episode that hooked this in to the greater phase 4, even if its just a cut-away scene or something.



I believe that Marvel explicitly said "The Eternals" was a complete stand-alone. I don't expect to see any cross over from that one.


----------



## Rabulias (Apr 14, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Why would _Arthur's_ time as the avatar create a personality in Marc?



When Arthur made the comment that he "enjoyed inflicting pain" for Khonshu, I wondered if the power granted to Moon Knight could retain some memories or traits of previous avatars. An idle thought, and admittedly a long shot.


----------



## MarkB (Apr 14, 2022)

Mezuka said:


> If you are in the desert at night, why do you turn your back to the only source of illumination to solve a puzzle made of brown parchment pieces?
> 
> Mark/Steven/Third guy: 'We have Darkvision!'



It's a map of stars. Makes sense you can see it best in the dark.


----------



## Rabulias (Apr 14, 2022)

MarkB said:


> I wonder how many of their avatars got Snapped - and then found themselves out of a job when they were unSnapped.



If this had happened to Harrow, this would have been a very interesting way to lead him to Ammit.


----------



## Umbran (Apr 14, 2022)

MarkB said:


> It's a map of stars. Makes sense you can see it best in the dark.




He's the avatar of a god of the Moon.  Makes sense he can see at night.


----------



## DeviousQuail (Apr 14, 2022)

It's pretty easy to see why the Ennead didn't get involved with Thanos. They were likely already done with humanity, besides the avatars, and having half the population snapped doesn't change anything for them. Not getting involved with the Eternals is a bit murkier. They likely crossed paths at some point (similar to the Eternals and Thor) but it was so long ago that it doesn't matter much now. Not helping to stop 



Spoiler: Eternals Spoiler



Tiamat from destroying the entire planet


 is also a bit of a question mark. Perhaps they always knew about what was going to happen, realized they couldn't stop it 



Spoiler: Another Eternals Spoiler



either because Tiamat would be too strong or Arishem would show up and black hole them into non-existence


 and that made parting with humanity easier. Or they had no idea and by the time things went down it was too late for anyone but the Eternals to intervene.


----------



## Rabulias (Apr 14, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I believe that Marvel explicitly said "The Eternals" was a complete stand-alone. I don't expect to see any cross over from that one.



I had not heard that, but it fits with the Eternals history in comics. OTOH, with the inclusion of Dane Whitman, along with 



Spoiler: Eternals spoiler



Mahershala Ali's Blade


, they are expanding beyond just Eternals in their cast. And then there is 



Spoiler: Eternals spoiler



Starfox


, who actually was a member of the Avengers for years in the comics. I imagine these other characters might crossover to some other properties at some point. I don't see the main Eternals showing up unless there is some large, Infinity War-type crossover at the end of Phase 5 or something.


----------



## fba827 (Apr 14, 2022)

there are six episodes. First two were predominantly Steve viewpoint  third was predominantly Marc POV
Think we’ll get two episodes per POV making the last two episodes from a third personality perspective? ;-)


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 14, 2022)

Something to look at is the first four episodes are being directed by the same person and then the final two by others. Not sure if a different director for each or the same person for both. The director for the first four, who I think is also the show runner?, has been quoted as saying he decided to cut various MCU easter eggs from his episodes after they were filmed, but maybe the final two episodes will have more than just a reference to Majipoor and connect the show more directly into the MCU. We know it is part of the overall lore, but how much will Moon Knight interact with the greater superhero world? I know people want to see the Midnight Sons team from the comics, which has not yet officially included Moon Knight, but does include Blade, Ghost Rider and Doctor Strange. And Oscar Isaac thinks it would be cool to do too.









						Oscar Isaac Addresses If Moon Knight's Midnight Sons Will Join MCU
					

Bring on the Midnight Sons.




					screenrant.com


----------



## Blue (Apr 15, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I believe that Marvel explicitly said "The Eternals" was a complete stand-alone. I don't expect to see any cross over from that one.



If you watch the Making Of, it's the exact opposite, that they feel they are setting the directions for the Entire Phase 4.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Apr 15, 2022)

It seems to me that if Marc/Steven multiclassed from celestial warlock to twilight cleric he would win easily.


----------



## pukunui (Apr 15, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> *ps* - just remembered Wakandan Spirit World had a purple filter too, in comics the Wakanda gods came from Egypt



Yes, gods like Bast(et), Ptah, and Thoth all come from Egyptian mythology.


----------



## Ryujin (Apr 15, 2022)

Blue said:


> If you watch the Making Of, it's the exact opposite, that they feel they are setting the directions for the Entire Phase 4.



I'll need to watch that because I distinctly remember reading that, apart from the peripheral characters it introduced, "Eternals" was a stand alone.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 15, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I'll need to watch that because I distinctly remember reading that, apart from the peripheral characters it introduced, "Eternals" was a stand alone.




The first movie pretty much is, but maybe not the sequels or the most likely adding of the characters into other movies. GotG was pretty much the same way. The first movie was just them, but they were also part of the overall story because of Thanos.


----------



## Ryujin (Apr 15, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> The first movie pretty much is, but maybe not the sequels or the most likely adding of the characters into other movies. GotG was pretty much the same way. The first movie was just them, but they were also part of the overall story because of Thanos.



Apart from one dead link, I haven't been able to find anything confirming a sequel. I have my doubts that there will be one, given the reception the first received.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 15, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Apart from one dead link, I haven't been able to find anything confirming a sequel. I have my doubts that there will be one, given the reception the first received.




Finding a director willing to take on a sequel, which would likely not look the same as Chloe Zhao's style, will be difficult, if she does not sign on for it. They have the Star Wars sequel trilogy to learn from when two directors are so different from each other. But for a pandemic release, the movie did well, and has been very popular on Disney+, so we will see more of them, I am sure.


----------



## Tonguez (Apr 15, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Apart from one dead link, I haven't been able to find anything confirming a sequel. I have my doubts that there will be one, given the reception the first received.




quote from January 2022:
Eternals in and of itself was created as a standalone film…as producer Nate Moore told the Toronto Sun in October 2021, “If you just watch Eternals, you can enjoy Eternals, you can understand Eternals and you’re good to go.”

By that same token, it’s totally possible that Eternals won’t have a full roster of follow-up films, either. In Moore’s October interview, he stressed that Eternals 2 is “not something that is a must-have.”









						Is Eternals 2 on the Way? Here's What We Know
					

Despite the original film's mixed reception, an Eternals sequel is totally possible. Here's what we know so far, according to cast and crew interviews.




					www.themarysue.com


----------



## DeviousQuail (Apr 15, 2022)

I think the Eternals might get another movie, but more importantly they just need to appear in some other team up movies before that happens. Get them connected to some of the other cosmic heroes like the Guardians and Thor, Captain Marvel, or whatever Fury is doing right now. They'll also try to connect them to whatever Black Knight gets up to. I wouldn't be surprised if we see Sprite alongside Black Knight and Blade.


----------



## Ryujin (Apr 15, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> quote from January 2022:
> Eternals in and of itself was created as a standalone film…as producer Nate Moore told the Toronto Sun in October 2021, “If you just watch Eternals, you can enjoy Eternals, you can understand Eternals and you’re good to go.”
> 
> By that same token, it’s totally possible that Eternals won’t have a full roster of follow-up films, either. In Moore’s October interview, he stressed that Eternals 2 is “not something that is a must-have.”
> ...



Yup, read that. I'm in Toronto so have also read the original story, that is quoted by TheMarySue


----------



## pukunui (Apr 15, 2022)

I got the sense that Marc was lying to Layla about not knowing what happened to her dad. Is the implication that Marc killed her father?

I also get the sense that Layla has come to admire/prefer Steven, perhaps because of their shared interests. I can see her hoping that Steven becomes the dominant personality permanently, but that raises some interesting questions about being married to someone with dissociative identity disorder.

How will Marc free Khonshu without his special powers?

I thought it odd that the pyramid could be hollow inside, knowing what we know about its construction. Undoubtedly there’s a magical/metaphysical aspect to it.

It’s interesting that the third, secret personality is even more brutal and violent than Marc.


----------



## Umbran (Apr 15, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I got the sense that Marc was lying to Layla about not knowing what happened to her dad. Is the implication that Marc killed her father?




Possibly.  I think it is more probable that he feels responsibility, even if he didn't do the deed.



Spoiler: In the comics...



Mercenary Marc Spector is on a job, helping a warlord in the Sudan put down a rebellion.  One of his fellow mercs starts attacking civilians, including an archeologist, who is killed.  Marc gets the archeologist's daughter out of the way, and then takes on the merc... and loses.  Locals take Marc down into the tomb the archeologist had discovered, where Marc then dies, and is ressurected by Khonshu to be Moon Knight, the Left Fist of Khonshu.

I expect that Layla is analogous to the daughter in that origin story - in which case Marc doesn't want to talk about what happened, because he failed to save her father, and feels guilt over that.


----------



## Rabulias (Apr 15, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Apart from one dead link, I haven't been able to find anything confirming a sequel. I have my doubts that there will be one, given the reception the first received.



Well there is the "Eternals will return..." on-screen message after the last end credits scene in the movie. It doesn't necessarily mean a sequel; they could show up elsewhere throughout Phase 4 and 5 (or beyond).


----------



## MarkB (Apr 15, 2022)

pukunui said:


> How will Marc free Khonshu without his special powers?



Freeing him could be as simple as smashing the statuette. Getting to it will be the tricky part.


----------



## pukunui (Apr 16, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Freeing him could be as simple as smashing the statuette. Getting to it will be the tricky part.



Yes, that is what I'm wondering. How will he get into that temple or whatever it is inside the pyramid? Obviously I'll just have to wait and see!


----------



## Morrus (Apr 16, 2022)

Well, I can definitely say that I find Steven much more interesting to watch than Marc.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Apr 16, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Freeing him could be as simple as smashing the statuette.



Since Harrow _didn't _smash it whilst he had the chance, this seems likely.


MarkB said:


> Getting to it will be the tricky part.



Tomb raiding will probably require Steven's skillset.


----------



## Omand (Apr 16, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Since Harrow _didn't _smash it whilst he had the chance, this seems likely.
> 
> Tomb raiding will probably require Steven's skillset.



and Layla's skillset when it comes to the tomb raiding.  She won't get lost or overwhelmed by it all like Steven will (at least based upon his comments in the mirror when the avatars met).

Cheers


----------



## pukunui (Apr 17, 2022)

I wonder if maybe Steven is the part of Marc that actually listened to Layla and took on board all her interests (the French poetry, the Egyptian mythology, etc), and since Layla lives in Britain, he gave Steven a British accent and then locked it all away as a separate identity.

I also wonder if maybe the third, as yet unidentified, alter has made other appearances off-screen that we don’t know about. Meaning he isn’t a new alter that’s just manifesting for the first time. It could explain why the museum security guard was always calling him Scotty instead of Steven. That might have also been who asked the tour guide out on a date - I just can’t really see Marc doing that, unless he was doing it _for_ Steven. Yes, Marc wanted to divorce Layla but not because he doesn’t love her. He wants to keep her away from Khonshu. I just can’t see him wanting to go out with another woman while it’s clear he still loves Layla.


----------



## Omand (Apr 17, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I wonder if maybe Steven is the part of Marc that actually listened to Layla and took on board all her interests (the French poetry, the Egyptian mythology, etc), and since Layla lives in Britain, he gave Steven a British accent and then locked it all away as a separate identity.
> 
> I also wonder if maybe the third, as yet unidentified, alter has made other appearances off-screen that we don’t know about. Meaning he isn’t a new alter that’s just manifesting for the first time. It could explain why the museum security guard was always calling him Scotty instead of Steven. That might have also been who asked the tour guide out on a date - I just can’t really see Marc doing that, unless he was doing it _for_ Steven. Yes, Marc wanted to divorce Layla but not because he doesn’t love her. He wants to keep her away from Khonshu. I just can’t see him wanting to go out with another woman while it’s clear he still loves Layla.



I like this theory.

Maybe we find out next episode, or perhaps they will stretch it out.

Cheers


----------



## pukunui (Apr 17, 2022)

This show is giving me all sorts of inspiration for how to RP a warlock’s patron.


----------



## Ryujin (Apr 17, 2022)

Morrus said:


> Well, I can definitely say that I find Steven much more interesting to watch than Marc.



Seeing an archeology nerd find that he can punch a baddie across the width of a street is far more interesting than seeing a mercenary take out several, without effort. The wonder is contagious.


----------



## pukunui (Apr 19, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I wonder if maybe Steven is the part of Marc that actually listened to Layla and took on board all her interests (the French poetry, the Egyptian mythology, etc), and since Layla lives in Britain, he gave Steven a British accent and then locked it all away as a separate identity.
> 
> I also wonder if maybe the third, as yet unidentified, alter has made other appearances off-screen that we don’t know about. Meaning he isn’t a new alter that’s just manifesting for the first time. It could explain why the museum security guard was always calling him Scotty instead of Steven. That might have also been who asked the tour guide out on a date - I just can’t really see Marc doing that, unless he was doing it _for_ Steven. Yes, Marc wanted to divorce Layla but not because he doesn’t love her. He wants to keep her away from Khonshu. I just can’t see him wanting to go out with another woman while it’s clear he still loves Layla.



Thinking about this more, I think it must have been personality #3 who asked the tour guide out on a date. 

Unless Marc’s trip to Switzerland was extremely last minute (and I admit it certainly could have been), it seems weird that he would have arranged a date for Steven knowing that he wouldn’t be able to make it.


----------



## trappedslider (Apr 20, 2022)

well, that was interesting, looks like they've met a new friend (?) the goddess Taweret.


----------



## MarkB (Apr 20, 2022)

For everyone complaining that they didn't show the actual Egyptian gods - congrats, I guess?


----------



## Tonguez (Apr 20, 2022)

Dont know what to make of this episode - part Tombraider part one flew over the cuckoos neat

at least we get to see a god, and what a cutie


----------



## trappedslider (Apr 20, 2022)

MarkB said:


> For everyone complaining that they didn't show the actual Egyptian gods - congrats, I guess?


----------



## Ryujin (Apr 20, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Dont know what to make of this episode - part Tombraider part one flew over the cuckoos neat
> 
> at least we get to see a god, and what a cutie



"Hi!"


----------



## trappedslider (Apr 20, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> "Hi!"



I expected the high voice instead of a deep one and the guys reaction was priceless


----------



## Ryujin (Apr 20, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> I expected the high voice instead of a deep one and the guys reaction was priceless



Just waiting for the memes to hit


----------



## MarkB (Apr 20, 2022)

I'm guessing that this is actually the Overworld (is that what they called it?) rather than a figment of Marc's dying mind.


----------



## Rabulias (Apr 20, 2022)

And we all have a good idea of who is in the bumping sarcophagus Marc and Steven did _not _open... Hopefully we learn more next episode.


----------



## pukunui (Apr 20, 2022)

MarkB said:


> I'm guessing that this is actually the Overworld (is that what they called it?) rather than a figment of Marc's dying mind.



The Overvoid


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan (Apr 20, 2022)

Yes! Taweret! Nice to see that they're using Egyptian gods/goddesses that most people aren't familiar with.


----------



## trappedslider (Apr 20, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Yes! Taweret! Nice to see that they're using Egyptian gods/goddesses that most people aren't familiar with.



yeah i had to look it up,I don't think she's shown up in uncle rick's mythology verse yet lol but it's been awhile since I read the Kane chronicles


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan (Apr 20, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> yeah i had to look it up,I don't think she's shown up in uncle rick's mythology verse yet lol but it's been awhile since I read the Kane chronicles



Oh, she and Bes are a major part of the Kane Chronicles in the 2nd and 3rd books. That's the only reason I recognized her.


----------



## Tonguez (Apr 20, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Yes! Taweret! Nice to see that they're using Egyptian gods/goddesses that most people aren't familiar with.



Taweret is the Nurse, (protector of children) so makes sense they put her in the gods ‘hospital’ but shes also the consort of Aphopis (chaos) and also a star god being the lady of the Horizon (Northern Sky)


----------



## DeviousQuail (Apr 20, 2022)

MarkB said:


> For everyone complaining that they didn't show the actual Egyptian gods - congrats, I guess?



I certainly wanted to see the gods so I'm happy that it's happening.

Not really much to say about this episode. The plot pushed forward and took a turn at the end. Can't wait to meet more gods and personality #3.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Apr 20, 2022)

Just to see if I'm confused, wasn't Tawaret the god attached to the one woman avatar who was friendly to Mark before the whole meeting event?  Or was that a different goddess?


----------



## Tonguez (Apr 20, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> Just to see if I'm confused, wasn't Tawaret the god attached to the one woman avatar who was friendly to Mark before the whole meeting event?  Or was that a different goddess?



Different goddess, the other one was Hathor


----------



## Ryujin (Apr 20, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Different goddess, the other one was Hathor



To quote "Stargate: SG1", the goddess of sex, drugs, and Rock & Roll.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Apr 21, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Different goddess, the other one was Hathor




Ah, I'd misremembered.


----------



## pukunui (Apr 21, 2022)

OK that was wild!

I love that Layla and Steven have fallen for each other.

Interesting that they've made Alexander the Great a former avatar of Ammit. Steven geeking out about it was fun to watch.

The tomb protectors were creepy!

The whole psych ward thing was well done. Not sure if that's the Overvoid or not. I love that Steven and Marc were so happy to see each other. And I'm guessing that murderous personality #3 was the one locked in that other sarcophagus?

What if it wasn't Marc's "partner" who murdered Layla's father but personality #3? Maybe that's what caused his mind to shatter!


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan (Apr 21, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Not sure if that's the Overvoid or not.



It could be . . . but my guess is that it's the Duat (Egyptian Underworld). Marc pretty clearly died (or at least should have), and we've seen an Egyptian God-connected afterlife in the MCU before (the Ancestral Plane from Black Panther, with Wakanda's connection of the Egyptian Goddess Bastet). Also, Taweret wasn't a member of the group of gods that banished/petrified Khonshu, so my guess is that the same thing happened to her, and that these "dead gods" get sent to the Duat after being banished by the Ennead. And Taweret has some connection to the Duat in the mythology (possibly being a guardian of Ra as he sailed through the Duat at night).


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## pukunui (Apr 21, 2022)

There sure were a lot of imprisoned gods! More than there were empty seats in the pyramid.

Which gods were represented by their avatars in episode 3? Hathor, Horus, Isis, and two others, plus Khonshu.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Apr 21, 2022)

pukunui said:


> and two others



Osiris was the main sinister guy that places Khonshu's Ushabti to the pedestal. I don't know who the other god was, though.


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## pukunui (Apr 21, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Osiris was the main sinister guy that places Khonshu's Ushabti to the pedestal. I don't know who the other god was, though.



Tefnut was the fifth. Just googled it. I got the impression those five had banished/imprisoned pretty much every other Egyptian god.

Also, I just realized that Steven mentions Taweret in the first episode when he identifies the plush “hippo god” dolls in the museum gift shop!

Also, I really want to know if the MCU is establishing the Egyptian gods as actual deities or whether they’re really more like superhuman aliens like the Norse “gods”. I suppose they might just be super beings from some other dimension rather than another planet but still … is the MCU going to say that some mythological gods are real while others are real but not actually gods or what?


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 21, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Also, I really want to know if the MCU is establishing the Egyptian gods as actual deities or whether they’re really more like superhuman aliens like the Norse “gods”. I suppose they might just be super beings from some other dimension rather than another planet but still … is the MCU going to say that some mythological gods are real while others are real but not actually gods or what?




The first teaser trailer for Thor: Love and Thunder includes Zeus, so there are Greek "gods" in the MCU too. I hope that means we get Hercules too. After all, he was an Avenger in the comics.


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## MarkB (Apr 21, 2022)

pukunui said:


> There sure were a lot of imprisoned gods! More than there were empty seats in the pyramid.



Indeed. Maybe the way it was presented before, that the gods decided to cease meddling in human affairs, with Khonshu and Ammit as the only holdouts, was inaccurate - perhaps it was only a small clique of the most powerful among them, and they imprisoned any dissenters.


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## pukunui (Apr 21, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> The first teaser trailer for Thor: Love and Thunder includes Zeus, so there are Greek "gods" in the MCU too. I hope that means we get Hercules too. After all, he was an Avenger in the comics.



Ah. Is that who that was?

Still, the fact that the Norse gods are shown to be long-lived, super-powered aliens from another planet rather than actual divine beings makes me wonder what the “true” nature of all the other gods of antiquity is.

Are they all just aliens from other planets/dimensions? Or are some of them actually divine/spiritual in nature?


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## Morrus (Apr 21, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Ah. Is that who that was?
> 
> Still, the fact that the Norse gods are shown to be long-lived, super-powered aliens from another planet rather than actual divine beings makes me wonder what the “true” nature of all the other gods of antiquity is.
> 
> Are they all just aliens from other planets/dimensions? Or are some of them actually divine/spiritual in nature?



I guess they didn't have magic in the MCU when they introduced Thor, but now they do.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Apr 21, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Ah. Is that who that was?
> 
> Still, the fact that the Norse gods are shown to be long-lived, super-powered aliens from another planet rather than actual divine beings makes me wonder what the “true” nature of all the other gods of antiquity is.
> 
> Are they all just aliens from other planets/dimensions? Or are some of them actually divine/spiritual in nature?



And what about the gods that are shared between the mythologies? Like Serapis (Greek and Egyptian), Mithras (Roman and Iranian), and Aphrodite/Ishtar (Greek and Mesopotamian). Also, I'm assuming Athena doesn't exist in the MCU's Olympus, because Thena is one of the Eternals.


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## MarkB (Apr 21, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> And what about the gods that are shared between the mythologies? Like Serapis (Greek and Egyptian), Mithras (Roman and Iranian), and Aphrodite/Ishtar (Greek and Mesopotamian).



And Bast (Egyptian and Wakandan).


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## Ryujin (Apr 21, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Ah. Is that who that was?
> 
> Still, the fact that the Norse gods are shown to be long-lived, super-powered aliens from another planet rather than actual divine beings makes me wonder what the “true” nature of all the other gods of antiquity is.
> 
> Are they all just aliens from other planets/dimensions? Or are some of them actually divine/spiritual in nature?



The answer: It depends.


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## pukunui (Apr 21, 2022)

Morrus said:


> I guess they didn't have magic in the MCU when they introduced Thor, but now they do.



Maybe. Thor’s family use magic, but then they also claim it’s super advanced technology that just looks like magic, so I dunno.

That said, I _like _the idea that Odin et al aren’t really gods, just super-humans from another planet. I just think it’ll be weird if they’re the only ones and all the other classic gods are actual divine powers or whatever.


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## Paul Farquhar (Apr 21, 2022)

I think it's most likely that all the gods are beings with great power.


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## Ryujin (Apr 21, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Maybe. Thor’s family use magic, but then they also claim it’s super advanced technology that just looks like magic, so I dunno.
> 
> That said, I _like _the idea that Odin et al aren’t really gods, just super-humans from another planet. I just think it’ll be weird if they’re the only ones and all the other classic gods are actual divine powers or whatever.



Typically, when Kirby wanted to show Clarke's paradigm "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”, he used those weird, rotating, floating buildings. The Thor movies used them, just as the Thor comics had shown them. It was a great Easter Egg for '60s comic fans like me.









						Asgard Home Of Gods GIF - Asgard Home Of Gods - Discover & Share GIFs
					

Click to view the GIF




					tenor.com


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## Thomas Shey (Apr 21, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Indeed. Maybe the way it was presented before, that the gods decided to cease meddling in human affairs, with Khonshu and Ammit as the only holdouts, was inaccurate - perhaps it was only a small clique of the most powerful among them, and they imprisoned any dissenters.




Could be a compromise; they all were on board at first, but over time most had second thoughts, and as they did they got locked away.


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## Thomas Shey (Apr 21, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> And what about the gods that are shared between the mythologies? Like Serapis (Greek and Egyptian), Mithras (Roman and Iranian), and Aphrodite/Ishtar (Greek and Mesopotamian). Also, I'm assuming Athena doesn't exist in the MCU's Olympus, because Thena is one of the Eternals.




As I recall, _both_ existed in the comics.


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## Thomas Shey (Apr 21, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Maybe. Thor’s family use magic, but then they also claim it’s super advanced technology that just looks like magic, so I dunno.




Strictly speaking, I think Thor's comment on it was "When you get to a certain point, there's no difference."


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## Tonguez (Apr 21, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Ah. Is that who that was?
> 
> Still, the fact that the Norse gods are shown to be long-lived, super-powered aliens from another planet rather than actual divine beings makes me wonder what the “true” nature of all the other gods of antiquity is.
> 
> Are they all just aliens from other planets/dimensions? Or are some of them actually divine/spiritual in nature?




so far the MCU has had gods who are Asgardian, Egyptian/Wakandan, Loa and Olympians (?) plus demons (Ghostrider and the Helstroms),

Loa and demons in the MCU have been depicted as energy beings who reside in the Dark Dimension but regularly invade Earth (and in the case of demons possess human bodies)

while Asgardians were presented as essentially super-advanced aliens it did show Odin via the Odin-force evolving to be more ’godly’ and presumably Thor with his transformation is also evolving. Its also not clear if each of the nine realms was a planet or a ‘dimension’

we know Ennead gods reside in the Overvoid and use human Avatars. They are described as ‘a race of beings worshiped as gods’ but we otherwise dont have enough information to distinguish them from Odin et al.

Olympus appears to be reachable by starship

Other god-like beings:

The people of Ta-Lo and the Soul Eaters 
Domammu - he’s described as an inter-dimensional entity who conquered the Dark Dimension and absorbed other worlds in to it. MCU Hell is part of the Dark Dimension.
Celestials and Eternals are not true gods, so discounting them.
the Watcher?


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Apr 21, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> As I recall, _both_ existed in the comics.



I was more wondering the stories behind those gods. From what we've seen so far, Egyptian Gods and Greek Gods in the MCU function very differently. The Greek Gods look like just powerful aliens (like Thor, Loki, and Odin), while the Egyptians have to possess an Avatar on Earth in order to interact with it. If there's a god in both mythologies (Serapis), are they Egyptian-style or Greek-style in the MCU? 

Eternals Spoiler: Tiamut also complicates the god problem in the MCU. If she hadn't really been born until the Eternals, why were there myths about her in Babylonian mythology?


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## MarkB (Apr 21, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> I was more wondering the stories behind those gods. From what we've seen so far, Egyptian Gods and Greek Gods in the MCU function very differently. The Greek Gods look like just powerful aliens (like Thor, Loki, and Odin), while the Egyptians have to possess an Avatar on Earth in order to interact with it.



Had we actually seen any Greek gods prior to the new Thor trailer? And it's not as though we get a thorough breakdown of their nature and power level in that trailer.


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## BrokenTwin (Apr 21, 2022)

Tiamut could just be a different person with the same name.
That, and the MCU setting cohesiveness is... eh, to begin with.


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## Tonguez (Apr 21, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> I was more wondering the stories behind those gods. From what we've seen so far, Egyptian Gods and Greek Gods in the MCU function very differently. The Greek Gods look like just powerful aliens (like Thor, Loki, and Odin), while the Egyptians have to possess an Avatar on Earth in order to interact with it. If there's a god in both mythologies (Serapis), are they Egyptian-style or Greek-style in the MCU?
> 
> Eternals Spoiler: Tiamut also complicates the god problem in the MCU. If she hadn't really been born until the Eternals, why were there myths about her in Babylonian mythology?



Serapsis was a Greek god who lived in Egypt not the same god manifesting in two seperate pantheons (historically he was a syncretic hybrid)

also we see that the MCU gods like Thor can travel to other nations and indeed comic canon confirms that many gods of Wakanda (Bast, Sekhmet, Sobek, Thoth) came from Egypt whereas the Gorilla god from Cameroon. There are even stories of Sekhmet travelling to Wakanda and challenging Tchalla for the throne

so gods travel and have babies too - having them appear in multiple cultures has already been done in Marvel canon

oh and Tiamut isnt Tiamat (Marvel has Tiamat = Leviathan in the Annunaki pantheon)


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## Umbran (Apr 22, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Also, Taweret wasn't a member of the group of gods that banished/petrified Khonshu, so my guess is that the same thing happened to her, and that these "dead gods" get sent to the Duat after being banished by the Ennead. And Taweret has some connection to the Duat in the mythology (possibly being a guardian of Ra as he sailed through the Duat at night).




Tawaret has aspects concerned with birth, protection, and purification, and thus effectively to rebirth after death in the afterlife.   So, her presence is appropriate in mythological context.


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## Umbran (Apr 22, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Indeed. Maybe the way it was presented before, that the gods decided to cease meddling in human affairs, with Khonshu and Ammit as the only holdouts, was inaccurate - perhaps it was only a small clique of the most powerful among them, and they imprisoned any dissenters.




Well, clearly, those others, by their actions, chose their fate.  And so they _chose_ to be put into stone, where they cease to meddle in human affairs.  



pukunui said:


> Or are some of them actually divine/spiritual in nature?




What does that even mean?  Really, what does it mean to be "divine"?  How would you know someone was "actually divine"?

That's not so much a real question, as it is a note that the distinction is questionable.  We have seen Dormammu in Doctor Strange.  Is he a "spiritual being" or just a really powerful alien in a different dimension?


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## Umbran (Apr 22, 2022)

BrokenTwin said:


> Tiamut could just be a different person with the same name.




Note that the name for the Celestial came from Arishem, who isn't physically speaking.  It is a form of telepathy.  So, it could be a _concept_ - someone whose body was used to create the Earth, who is also the primordial chaos to come - which basically translates to "Tiamut" as the brain/mind brings forth mythology to make sense of it.


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## Umbran (Apr 22, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Other god-like beings:
> 
> Celestials and Eternals are not true gods, so discounting them.




Again, define "true gods".

The MCU has not solidly defined what Celestials are - how can we say they are not "true gods".  In the comics, they are a direct creation of the embodiment of the First Universe, that came before existence as any mortal knows it.  A creature from outside creation itself is not enough to qualify as "true god"?

And your list of god like beings leaves out Galactus, The Phoenix Force, the Beyonder(s), the Living Tribunal, the Stranger, Death, Mephisto, Agomatto, Cyttorak, the various Cosmic Cubes when they achieve sentience, Eternity, Infinity, the In-Betweener, Knull (the god of symbiotes), Lord Chaos and Master Order, and the list goes on.  Marvel Comics has a whole truckloads of cosmic beings that are embodiments of concepts.

There's also embodiments of each universe that came before - the First Firmament created the Celestials, but there is the Second, Third, Fourth, and Fifth.  The Sixth merged his essence with a man named Galen, to become Galactus in the (current) seventh incarnation of the Universe.

Okay, actually the current is the Eighth.  But the Eighth is really the seventh that was broken, and then reassembled by Reed Richards.

Hey, Reed can reassemble whole multiverses.  Is he not a god?


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## Tonguez (Apr 22, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Again, define "true gods".
> 
> The MCU has not solidly defined what Celestials are - how can we say they are not "true gods".  In the comics, they are a direct creation of the embodiment of the First Universe, that came before existence as any mortal knows it.  A creature from outside creation itself is not enough to qualify as "true god"?
> 
> ...



I only included those who have appeared in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, so yes Marvel comics has many more but we‘ll have to wait until they get a Movie/TV show to know what they are in MCU canon.

I did consider putting Hive

Celestials I discount because they arent true gods from a Earth-based pantheon and MCU has established that Eternals are artificial constructs


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## Umbran (Apr 22, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Celestials I discount because they arent true gods from a Earth-based pantheon




Um, dude.  There's an entire universe/multiverse out there.  Many of the MCU heroes are not from Earth.  Presumably the gods are not themselves from Earth either. 



Tonguez said:


> and MCU has established that Eternals are artificial constructs




So?  Everyone has to come from somewhere.  Gods are not bound by biology, are they?  Why can't a god just _make_ a god?

I mean, you still haven't told us what a "true god" even is.  You appear willing to exclude entities from the category without defining the category.  How does that work?

And, the people of Ta-Lo are in danger from weapons made my mere mortals.  That's godlike?


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## Tonguez (Apr 22, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Um, dude.  There's an entire universe/multiverse out there.  Many of the MCU heroes are not from Earth.  Presumably the gods are not themselves from Earth either.



when you say many, you mean One since Thor is the only non-human *Avenger*. (and Guardians of the Galaxy is just a fun diversion)
and yes I’m a biased Earth-centric partisan and only care for _Earths Mightiest Heroes_ - and thus only for Earths gods 


Umbran said:


> I mean, you still haven't told us what a "true god" even is.  You appear willing to exclude entities from the category without defining the category.  How does that work?
> 
> And, the people of Ta-Lo are in danger from weapons made my mere mortals.  That's godlike?



also maintaining my Earth-centrism a true god is one historically worshipped as gods by humans who isnt an ‘Eternal construct’ 
The people of Ta-Lo fit the model of Chinese immortals (Xian)

but until we get a definitive answer from Marvel, its all speculative


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## pukunui (Apr 22, 2022)

For me, I guess the difference is between beings from another planet and beings from another dimension. The Norse "gods" are the former. It seems like the Egyptian gods might be the latter.


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## Umbran (Apr 22, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> when you say many, you mean One since Thor is the only non-human *Avenger*. (and Guardians of the Galaxy is just a fun diversion)




Yeah, so if you are going to dismiss and cherry pick anything that, this isn't a conversation worth having.


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## Umbran (Apr 22, 2022)

pukunui said:


> For me, I guess the difference is between beings from another planet and beings from another dimension. The Norse "gods" are the former. It seems like the Egyptian gods might be the latter.




Howard the Duck technically comes from an extra-dimensional planet called Duckworld.  Is he a god?  Is it the planet-ness or the dimension-ness that really matters?  Why is origin in another dimension relevant?  Is it just an arbitrary choice>

We should note that the Asgardians don't come from a "planet" as far as we've seen.  It was like an island in space, barely an asteroid, without a planetary body _per se_.






We can only guess where all that water that eternally falls off into space actually comes from.  And it doesn't orbit a star, but has lighting anyway.  This body in space raises many questions, due to its unnatural form and behavior.  Does this look like a world an intelligent species is going to evolve on?  Or does it suggest that the Asgardians _settled_ here, but are actually originally from elsewhere?

And, Asgard is linked to the other worlds of the Nine Realms through Yggdrasil, which clearly has extra-dimensional properties...


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## Ryujin (Apr 22, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Howard the Duck technically comes from an extra-dimensional planet called Duckworld.  Is he a god?  Is it the planet-ness or the dimension-ness that really matters?  Why is origin in another dimension relevant?  Is it just an arbitrary choice>
> 
> We should note that the Asgardians don't come from a "planet" as far as we've seen.  It was like an island in space, barely an asteroid, without a planetary body _per se_.
> 
> ...



Reminds me of the joke, "Ireland gave bagpipes to Scotland as a joke, but Scotland hasn't gotten the punchline yet." 

Substitute Pratchett, Discworld, and Asgard.


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## pukunui (Apr 22, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Howard the Duck technically comes from an extra-dimensional planet called Duckworld.  Is he a god?  Is it the planet-ness or the dimension-ness that really matters?  Why is origin in another dimension relevant?  Is it just an arbitrary choice>
> 
> We should note that the Asgardians don't come from a "planet" as far as we've seen.  It was like an island in space, barely an asteroid, without a planetary body _per se_.
> 
> ...



Honestly, I’m still trying to figure it out myself.

Yes, I know that Asgard isn’t a typical planet. It’s more like Discworld! But I liked the idea that these “gods from space” are just aliens with technology that’s sufficiently advanced to be indistinguishable from magic. I also like the idea that the Nine Realms are all planets in physical space connected by a wormhole, with the Bifrost being some fancy magitech way of traveling through the wormhole.

I guess I don’t have to have _all_ ancient human gods be the same. They don’t have to all be aliens from other planets. I suppose doing that with the Egyptian gods would be too much like Stargate.

Anyway, I don’t have all the answers, and I’m still trying to articulate what it is I mean, so I apologize for any confusion on my part.


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## Umbran (Apr 22, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Honestly, I’m still trying to figure it out myself.




And that is 100% okay with me.  "I don't know," should always be an acceptable answer.  

I think a point to realize is the Marvel Universe, Cinamatic or otherwise, is _not_ a place with a single consistent set of metaphysical truths or laws.  It is a place with a mishmash of stuff that seemed cool when they were writing it, across decades fo tiem and dozens of authors!

Therefore, I suggest "god" in the Marvel Universe is not a statement about the entity, so much as a statement about the _relationship_ between the entity and normal humanity.


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## MarkB (Apr 22, 2022)

The way that Asgardians are portrayed in the MCU isn't really all that far off from how they often appear in mythology. They would frequently roam and adventure in the mortal realm, often not seeming to be on a whole other power level than those they encountered.

The Greek gods had some of that, but generally with a stronger delineation between themselves and mortals. They might choose to walk among them on occasion (mostly either to mess around with them, or just to mess with them), but there was little doubt as to their relative power levels. Demigods tended to be the ones who straddled that gap.

I'm not familiar enough with Egyptian mythology to have a sense of where they were portrayed as standing in terms of power levels. I get the impression that they were generally somewhat more remote, directing mortals more than interacting with them.


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## Thomas Shey (Apr 22, 2022)

It also was extremely clear that the Asgardians were ageless but not immortal, which can be--hit or miss--with other mythologies about how their gods are handled.  Its notable under the Greek model how often problematic deity level threats are imprisoned rather than killed, for example.


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## Tonguez (Apr 22, 2022)

MarkB said:


> I'm not familiar enough with Egyptian mythology to have a sense of where they were portrayed as standing in terms of power levels. I get the impression that they were generally somewhat more remote, directing mortals more than interacting with them.



mainly through Statues and Avatars - the Pharoah being the divine avatar of Osiris. Thats the reason why Egypt had so many temples and hieroglyph cartouches (royal name tags) since the spirit of a god could manifest in a image or name. Mummies were part of the same manifestation belief. The soul of a deceased person remained immortal as long as it had a body to return to.

Its also why Egyptian gods had animal heads - those animals were their avatar in the natural world

oh and the lesser Egyptian gods did have fates (and thus lifespans) allotted to them by Thoth


----------



## Richards (Apr 23, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Okay, actually the current is the Eighth.  But the Eighth is really the seventh that was broken, and then reassembled by Reed Richards.
> 
> Hey, Reed can reassemble whole multiverses.  Is he not a god?



I heartily approve of a guy named "Richards" being designated a god.

Johnathan


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## pukunui (Apr 27, 2022)

Well, that was a hell of an episode! Can't really figure out where things will go from there in the final episode.


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## Ryujin (Apr 27, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Well, that was a hell of an episode! Can't really figure out where things will go from there in the final episode.



Rather interesting that separate personalities, of the same person, seem to be different souls in the afterlife. And we now also know that they're going with the background that Marc was 'broken' before Khonshu, not by the act of becoming The Fist of Khonshu.


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## Tonguez (Apr 27, 2022)

One more episode to go - this has certainly been a different superhero journey

I did enjoy the interactions with Tawaret and the boys backstory.

and we got a Wakanda reference confirming a link between the Ancestral Plane and Duat.


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## Ryujin (Apr 27, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> One more episode to go - this has certainly been a different superhero journey
> 
> I did enjoy the interactions with Tawaret and the boys backstory.
> 
> and we got a Wakanda reference confirming a link between the Ancestral Plane and Duat.



Dang, I missed that. Where was it?


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## MarkB (Apr 27, 2022)

I still feel like we're waiting for the other shoe to drop. A whole episode about reconciling the Marc and Steven personalities without even a mention of whatever third personality we had hinted at in the last couple of episodes.


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## Tonguez (Apr 27, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Dang, I missed that. Where was it?



when Tawaret explains that Steven is dead and now in Duat - “_An afterlife, not the afterlife. You’d be surprised how many intersectional planes of untethered consciousness exist. Ah! Like the ancestral plane! Oh! Just gorgeous._”


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## MarkB (Apr 27, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> when Tawaret explains that Steven is dead and now in Duat - “_An afterlife, not the afterlife. You’d be surprised how many intersectional planes of untethered consciousness exist. Ah! Like the ancestral plane! Oh! Just gorgeous._”



I'm just imagining one of those really emotional Black Panther afterlife scenes being totally photo-bombed by this Egyptian hippo-woman wandering through the background saying "Hi!"


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## MoonSong (Apr 27, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> One more episode to go - this has certainly been a different superhero journey



Not really, it has been a cool implementation, but this seems fairly standard for a path of hero. Right now, we are close to the rebirth part, having just experienced revelation. 

T-T Poor Steven!


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## DeviousQuail (Apr 27, 2022)

It's a good thing I'm not a betting man because I thought finding balance would involve opening the sarcophagus of the third personality. I can't imagine they'll leave that thread hanging when this series is finished but we've only got one episode left to get out of the underworld, get Khonshu back, stop Harrow and Ammit, save Steven from the Duat, make things right with Layla, and leave potential tie-ins for the marvel world at large.


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## Mezuka (Apr 27, 2022)

The Egyptian hippo-woman appearance was very Luc Besson-esque. I was afraid she would start to dance and sing.


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## Thomas Shey (Apr 27, 2022)

MarkB said:


> I still feel like we're waiting for the other shoe to drop. A whole episode about reconciling the Marc and Steven personalities without even a mention of whatever third personality we had hinted at in the last couple of episodes.




I also noticed something that could be a coincidence, could be significant, or could be the creators playing with us: in the scene where Steven "wakes up" on the street after retreating from engaging with the wake, there's very prominently a _taxi cab_ visible.


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## Ryujin (Apr 27, 2022)

Marc in Egyptian heaven. Steven in Egyptian hell. Seems to me that there's going to need to be some sort of a reassembly, before they can come back from the dead. That will likely require an introduction to personality 3.


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## Tonguez (Apr 27, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> I also noticed something that could be a coincidence, could be significant, or could be the creators playing with us: in the scene where Steven "wakes up" on the street after retreating from engaging with the wake, there's very prominently a _taxi cab_ visible.



Heh I didnt pick up on that but youre right it is very prominent! its definitely probably another easter egg.

so theres that, the Wakanda reference and the Bushman reference, nice.
(for those who dont know Bushman is referenced as Marcs Mercenary leader, in comics he’s Moonknights primary enemy)



DeviousQuail said:


> It's a good thing I'm not a betting man because I thought finding balance would involve opening the sarcophagus of the third personality..



thats what I thought too, but we will need to wait until next week to see!


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## Stalker0 (Apr 27, 2022)

Really great episode, but yeah I'm wondering with one episode left how they are going to fit it all in. Then again, with streaming and the length of the episodes variable, maybe it will be a very long episode.


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## wicked cool (Apr 27, 2022)

not my favorite episode - the going back and forth between the asylum etc was somewhat confusing and boring


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## Stalker0 (Apr 27, 2022)

wicked cool said:


> not my favorite episode - the going back and forth between the asylum etc was somewhat confusing and boring



I will say, something that marvel's shows are getting bad at imo, is they really put the brakes on their momentum.

We are seeing this alot where they push foward with a plot, get it to an exciting moment....and then completely shift gears into something else for a few episodes. And while I love the content those other episodes provide, the timing of them does remove some of the momentum and excitement you have built.


----------



## DeviousQuail (Apr 27, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> I will say, something that marvel's shows are getting bad at imo, is they really put the brakes on their momentum.
> 
> We are seeing this alot where they push foward with a plot, get it to an exciting moment....and then completely shift gears into something else for a few episodes. And while I love the content those other episodes provide, the timing of them does remove some of the momentum and excitement you have built.



I like watching all the marvel shows as they come out but I've got some friends who wait and binge them after they're done. I wonder if people who binge (faster than 1 episode a week anyway) these shows get that same feeling. I agree that this happens more often than I would like but maybe I won't feel the same way when I rewatch these series.


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## MarkB (Apr 27, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> I will say, something that marvel's shows are getting bad at imo, is they really put the brakes on their momentum.
> 
> We are seeing this alot where they push foward with a plot, get it to an exciting moment....and then completely shift gears into something else for a few episodes. And while I love the content those other episodes provide, the timing of them does remove some of the momentum and excitement you have built.



Not just the Marvel shows. Picard's been quite similar in that regard.

Maybe there's something about the streaming model that makes them think this is a good 'shape' for these series.


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## Tonguez (Apr 27, 2022)

DeviousQuail said:


> I like watching all the marvel shows as they come out but I've got some friends who wait and binge them after they're done. I wonder if people who binge (faster than 1 episode a week anyway) these shows get that same feeling. I agree that this happens more often than I would like but maybe I won't feel the same way when I rewatch these series.



I like to binge watch shows (non-marvel) and yes it does help to maintain momentum when youre not pausing for a week and joining fan/cooler discussions rife with analysis and speculation.
I do think writers in attempting to fit a new model of viwing have adopted the habit of dropping the backstory in the middle of a run, so it starts and ends with action but still has ‘story‘. unfortunately it does slow things and can lead to a rushed concluding episode


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## Stalker0 (Apr 27, 2022)

DeviousQuail said:


> I wonder if people who binge (faster than 1 episode a week anyway) these shows get that same feeling.



I do think the binging has led to some bad habits in story telling. The shows that get dropped at once (aka designed to be binged) can get away with more mistakes imo, because all they need to do is give me enough to get me to the next episode. Contrast that to traditional tv where you need to keep me on the hook week to week....which requires more interesting storytelling.

Ultimately I think the week to week format is a superior one. Of course when a new show drops I want every episode I can get my hands on, but I think consuming it once a week makes people appreciate it more, they discuss it and consider it more.


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## MarkB (Apr 27, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> I do think the binging has led to some bad habits in story telling. The shows that get dropped at once (aka designed to be binged) can get away with more mistakes imo, because all they need to do is give me enough to get me to the next episode. Contrast that to traditional tv where you need to keep me on the hook week to week....which requires more interesting storytelling.
> 
> Ultimately I think the week to week format is a superior one. Of course when a new show drops I want every episode I can get my hands on, but I think consuming it once a week makes people appreciate it more, they discuss it and consider it more.



Yeah, and if it's a big, anticipated show that drops all at once, you've got that awkward period where you've watched some but not all of it, and you really want to discuss it but you desperately want to avoid spoilers, and some of your friends have already watched the whole thing while others haven't even started it.

I really enjoyed shows dropping all in one go at first, but I do prefer the more episodic releases these days.


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## pukunui (Apr 27, 2022)

wicked cool said:


> not my favorite episode - the going back and forth between the asylum etc was somewhat confusing and boring



I enjoyed it. Very Inception-ish.

Still, it does feel like they've got _a lot _of ground to cover in the finale!

I also was a little confused as to how Marc's scales could balance by dealing with Steven but not the as-yet-unrevealed third personality. I bet you that's his "bundle of rage" from his mother's abuse bubbling away in his subconscious or something. Surely that would keep his scales out of whack.

I also thought it was ... interesting ... that they employed Hispanic actors to portray a Jewish family. Oh, and did you know that Oscar Isaac's brother was his double?


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## MarkB (Apr 27, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I also was a little confused as to how Marc's scales could balance by dealing with Steven but not the as-yet-unrevealed third personality. I bet you that's his "bundle of rage" from his mother's abuse bubbling away in his subconscious or something. Surely that would keep his scales out of whack.



So, there is an uncomfortable possibility here. At the end, when the dead attacked them on the boat, Steven was able to overcome his normal reticence about violence, and when he did, he absolutely _went to town_ on them, and seemed to enjoy the rush of victory, with Marc looking rather appalled at him.

And it's only once Steven's soul is removed from the equation that Marc's soul becomes balanced and he's admitted to paradise.

Maybe these suggestions of a third personality have been a lie - a lie told to Marc by Steven. Maybe that violent streak has been part of Steven all along, and it really was him who killed those people in Cairo.


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## pukunui (Apr 28, 2022)

I did find it a bit odd that Marc created Steven to deal with his mom's abuse, yet that's Marc's memory, not Steven's ... even though it was Steven at the receiving end of the abuse.


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## Ryujin (Apr 28, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I did find it a bit odd that Marc created Steven to deal with his mom's abuse, yet that's Marc's memory, not Steven's ... even though it was Steven at the receiving end of the abuse.



It did feel a bit backward, didn't it? Steven only has good memories of his mother. I'm still thinking that there actually is a third personality in there that internalized all that violence, and now points it outwards. One that neither Marc nor Steven know about, which is why they just walked on by the 'extra' sarcophagus.

_EDIT_ - Can't believe that I got 'sarcophagus' right on the first try. It's been roughly 45 years since Ancient and Medieval History class.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 28, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I also thought it was ... interesting ... that they employed Hispanic actors to portray a Jewish family.




Being Jewish is not just an ethnicity, but is separately also a religion, and yes, that causes confusion. It is a religion that can be born into or converted to. After all, one of Trump's daughters converted to Judaism when she married her husband, so now she is Jewish.


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## pukunui (Apr 28, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Being Jewish is not just an ethnicity, but is separately also a religion, and yes, that causes confusion. It is a religion that can be born into or converted to. After all, one of Trump's daughters converted to Judaism when she married her husband, so now she is Jewish.



I am aware of that. It still felt a bit odd to me.


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## Tonguez (Apr 28, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I did find it a bit odd that Marc created Steven to deal with his mom's abuse, yet that's Marc's memory, not Steven's ... even though it was Steven at the receiving end of the abuse.



It looked to me that Steven was Marcs ‘happy place’ while he dealt with the abuse - however the fact that he pulled Steven out of the room and closed the door before Steven saw any actual beating does hint at a third personality - who actually endured the physical abuse 

Im guessing the guy with the injured nose talking to Dr Harrow might have been the third too


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## MoonSong (Apr 28, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> It looked to me that Steven was Marcs ‘happy place’ while he dealt with the abuse - however the fact that he pulled Steven out of the room and closed the door before Steven saw any actual beating does hint at a third personality - who actually endured the physical abuse
> 
> Im guessing the guy with the injured nose talking to Dr Harrow might have been the third too



Plot twist the third personality is alive and in control of the body


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## Umbran (Apr 28, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I also was a little confused as to how Marc's scales could balance by dealing with Steven but not the as-yet-unrevealed third personality. I bet you that's his "bundle of rage" from his mother's abuse bubbling away in his subconscious or something.




I think that's a little off - remember, we should be thinking in the dissociative identity disorder paradigm. 

I have a theory.  Marc is the core personality.  Steven is the personality that allows him some semblance of a "normal" life, ignorant of the pain that he's gone through. 

But... who was taking those beatings?  It wasn't Steven.  And it wasn't Marc - I don't think someone who'd lived through that would think of showing up to sit shiva.  I expect the third personality is the one _created to take those beatings_ for Marc and Steven.

(edit: Tonguez beat me to it)


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## Umbran (Apr 28, 2022)

MoonSong said:


> Plot twist the third personality is alive and in control of the body




Hard to do with a bullet in the chest, though.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 28, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I am aware of that. It still felt a bit odd to me.




I looked around a bit and while Oscar Isaac is Christian and not Jewish, his family name, Isaac, is Jewish on his father's side. His parents are from Cuba and Honduras, I think it was, and while small, there is a Jewish segment among Hispanics. So for Marc's family to look like the actor and still be Jewish, and at some point probably fled persecution to come to the US, is not a huge stretch. Now, I don't know if we will ever find out the decision by the writers and director to make Marc Jewish, but seeing so much of his past family life, I would like to think it had a reason other than just being different than the usual Christian, and mainly Catholic, stuff that we get when dramas include religion.


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## Umbran (Apr 28, 2022)

DeviousQuail said:


> ... but we've only got one episode left ....




I am half hoping they use the fact that it isn't broadcast to be flexible, and have that final episode be a bit longer.  With Wandavision, for example, the final episode was twice as long as the first.


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## pukunui (Apr 28, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I think that's a little off - remember, we should be thinking in the dissociative identity disorder paradigm.
> 
> I have a theory.  Marc is the core personality.  Steven is the personality that allows him some semblance of a "normal" life, ignorant of the pain that he's gone through.
> 
> ...



Yeah, that's a fair point. Perhaps Marc knows about personality #3 but has been in denial about it. I still feel like that would result in his scales continuing to be out of balance. But whatever - bring on the finale!



Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I looked around a bit and while Oscar Isaac is Christian and not Jewish, his family name, Isaac, is Jewish on his father's side. His parents are from Cuba and Honduras, I think it was, and while small, there is a Jewish segment among Hispanics. So for Marc's family to look like the actor and still be Jewish, and at some point probably fled persecution to come to the US, is not a huge stretch. Now, I don't know if we will ever find out the decision by the writers and director to make Marc Jewish, but seeing so much of his past family life, I would like to think it had a reason other than just being different than the usual Christian, and mainly Catholic, stuff that we get when dramas include religion.



Fair enough!


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## Umbran (Apr 28, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I looked around a bit and while Oscar Isaac is Christian and not Jewish, his family name, Isaac, is Jewish on his father's side.




Well, that's not his family name.  His full name is Óscar Isaac Hernández Estrada - paternal surname Hernández, maternal surname Estrada.  The name Isaac does come from his father's side of the family, but not his father directly. 



Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Now, I don't know if we will ever find out the decision by the writers and director to make Marc Jewish, but seeing so much of his past family life, I would like to think it had a reason other than just being different than the usual Christian, and mainly Catholic, stuff that we get when dramas include religion.




Well, canonically in the comics, Marc Spector is Jewish.  I expect it was thought that having a non-Jewish actor portray a Jewish character was better than completely erasing the character's heritage.


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## Tonguez (Apr 28, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> . Now, I don't know if we will ever find out the decision by the writers and director to make Marc Jewish, but seeing so much of his past family life, I would like to think it had a reason other than just being different than the usual Christian, and mainly Catholic, stuff that we get when dramas include religion.




According to one source it was an accident. Moonknight was created in 1975 as a supernatural hero who was a mercenary possessed by the Egyptian god Khonshu.
In 1980 the writer Doug Moench needed a name so called him Marc Spector after a friend but did not realise that the name was Jewish.

After Moench left,  his replacement was a young Jewish writter who decided to add the backstory that Marcs father was a Rabbi who fled petsecution in Europe and raised his son in the Jewish fairh. Marc Spectors mother however was not Jewish by birth (and thus neither is her child) - so Oscar Isaac is in fact a perfect match

The great irony for me of course is that the Jewishness of the character didnt stop the writers invoking and empowering him via the pagan gods of Egypt


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## trappedslider (Apr 28, 2022)

MarkB said:


> I'm just imagining one of those really emotional Black Panther afterlife scenes being totally photo-bombed by this Egyptian hippo-woman wandering through the background saying "Hi!"



I wish i had the skills to make an image of that


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## Umbran (Apr 28, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> According to one source it was an accident. Moonknight was created in 1975 as a supernatural hero who was a mercenary possessed by the Egyptian god Khonshu.
> In 1989 the writer Doug Moench needed a name so called him Marc Spector after a friend but did not realise that the name was Jewish.




I disbelieve.  That would mean that he went _without a name_ from his first appearance in 1975, through the _entire first two volumes_ of his solo comics which started in 1980 and 1985, respectively.

Please don't make me pull out the longboxes of comics from my closet to prove it.  But I will if I have to.


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## billd91 (Apr 28, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> The great irony for me of course is that the Jewishness of the character didnt stop the writers invoking and empowering him via the pagan gods of Egypt



Well, he gets his power from Khonshu, he doesn’t worship him.


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## Tonguez (Apr 28, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I disbelieve.  That would mean that he went without a name from his first appearance in 1975, through the entire first two volumes of his solo comics which started in 1980 and 1985, respectively.



Oops that should be 1980 not 89


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## Davies (Apr 28, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I disbelieve.



Nor should you. He's explicitly named Mark Spector in his first appearance in _Werewolf by Night_ (1972) #32.


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## Umbran (Apr 28, 2022)

Davies said:


> Nor should you. He's explicitly named Mark Spector in his first appearance in _Werewolf by Night_ (1972) #32.




Yeah.  Just looked it up...


Spoiler: Werewolf by Night #32...










Now, I don't know when it is canonically established that he's Jewish.  That probably comes later.


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## Umbran (Apr 28, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Marc Spectors mother however was not Jewish by birth (and thus neither is her child)




Eh, you ought to be careful there.  There are several different branches of the faith, and not all of them require strict matrilineal descent to be considered Jewish.


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## Davies (Apr 28, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Now, I don't know when it is canonically established that he's Jewish.  That probably comes later.



If I'm reading this right, with the first appearance of his father in _Moon Knight (1980)_ #37 in 1984.


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## Paul Farquhar (Apr 28, 2022)

MarkB said:


> I still feel like we're waiting for the other shoe to drop. A whole episode about reconciling the Marc and Steven personalities without even a mention of whatever third personality we had hinted at in the last couple of episodes.



With Marc and Steven both dead dead, Personality #3 is all that's left to save the day.


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## Paul Farquhar (Apr 28, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Maybe these suggestions of a third personality have been a lie - a lie told to Marc by Steven. Maybe that violent streak has been part of Steven all along, and it really was him who killed those people in Cairo.



I doubt they would ever go this way, but the _could_ go full-Psycho and make the third personality the abusive dead mother.


I think it's more likely that #3 is the dead brother though, and is a good guy.


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## Paul Farquhar (Apr 28, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Hard to do with a bullet in the chest, though.



But it could be significant that he was shot with exactly two bullets.


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## MarkB (Apr 28, 2022)

billd91 said:


> Well, he gets his power from Khonshu, he doesn’t worship him.



Yeah, he's a good example of a warlock and patron.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Apr 28, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Yeah, he's a good example of a warlock and patron.



Definitely a Pact of the Blade Undead Warlock. Form of Dread matches Marc/Steven "summoning the suit" really well.


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## Tonguez (Apr 28, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I doubt they would ever go this way, but the _could_ go full-Psycho and make the third personality the abusive dead mother.
> 
> 
> I think it's more likely that #3 is the dead brother though, and is a good guy.




in the comics there is an insane version of the brother who becomes a dark Avatar called Shadowknight, I could see them making personality 3 into Shadowknight. - the dark side of Marcs Moon-knight


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## wicked cool (Apr 28, 2022)

is the Dr in the asylum delaying him? Is it Harrow or a figment? Marcs on his way to hell but then its balancing the scale and being knocked? Is this explained better in the comics? Im guessing Marc is going to wake up in Harrows base and harrow was pushing the personality shift


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## Paul Farquhar (Apr 28, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Definitely a Pact of the Blade Undead Warlock. Form of Dread matches Marc/Steven "summoning the suit" really well.



Technically, Khonshu is more of a celestial.


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## Umbran (Apr 28, 2022)

Davies said:


> If I'm reading this right, with the first appearance of his father in _Moon Knight (1980)_ #37 in 1984.




Yeah, I looked that up this morning.  His background is pretty solidly established when his dead rabbi father is reanimated using Kabbalistic mysticism, yeah.



Paul Farquhar said:


> With Marc and Steven both dead dead, Personality #3 is all that's left to save the day.




Technically, they are all dead.  They only have the one body.



Paul Farquhar said:


> I doubt they would ever go this way, but the _could_ go full-Psycho and make the third personality the abusive dead mother.




Yeah, they won't do that.  While their treatment of DID hasn't been real-world textbook, it has been reasonably respectful and sympathetic.  


Paul Farquhar said:


> I think it's more likely that #3 is the dead brother though, and is a good guy.




I think... not.  Identifying one of his personalities with the brother that died by his actions would be hokey.  Doing that so that the dead brother could _take his beatings for him_ is downright villainous.   If nothing else, it is implied that the third personality is capable of violence so brutal that gives even Marc pause, which doesn't sound like a "good guy" thing.

Now, in the comics, Marc's brother isn't dead, and is jealous that Marc gets powers, and becomes Marc's enemy, but this would be a pretty crummy way to work that relationship.


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## Umbran (Apr 28, 2022)

wicked cool said:


> is the Dr in the asylum delaying him? Is it Harrow or a figment? Marcs on his way to hell but then its balancing the scale and being knocked? Is this explained better in the comics?




This doesn't happen in the comics.  In Egyptian mythology, your heart is weighted against the feather.  If the heart is lighter, you go to the afterlife.  If the heart is heavier, your soul gets eaten by Ammit.



wicked cool said:


> Im guessing Marc is going to wake up in Harrows base and harrow was pushing the personality shift




I hope note.  I'd prefer it be Marc wrangling with his personal trauma without it being the villain's fault.


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## wicked cool (Apr 28, 2022)

Harrows assistant has this look when Marc asked about being drugged. Can’t just be in his mind or purgatory


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## Umbran (Apr 28, 2022)

wicked cool said:


> Harrows assistant has this look when Marc asked about being drugged. Can’t just be in his mind or purgatory




If the best evidence is the facial expression of one background character, well, that isn't solid evidence to me.

And, btw, they seem to be leaning ino Egyptian concept of afterlife.  Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory aren't good analogs.  Heck, they aren't relevant for Marc as Jewish either.  For the Egyptians, there was no Hell of punishment or torment.  If you weren't up to snuff, you simply got no afterlife and ceased to exist.


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## Dire Bare (Apr 28, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Definitely a Pact of the Blade Undead Warlock. Form of Dread matches Marc/Steven "summoning the suit" really well.



Pact of the Suit?


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## Umbran (Apr 28, 2022)

Dire Bare said:


> Pact of the Suit?




Pacting with Versace, or the Brothers Brooks?


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## MoonSong (Apr 28, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Pacting with Versace, or the Brothers Brooks?



As long as it isn't Zara or H&M...


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## Ryujin (Apr 28, 2022)

MoonSong said:


> As long as it isn't Zara or H&M...



Doesn't every Warlock automatically pact with Hot Topic?


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## Dire Bare (Apr 28, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Doesn't every Warlock automatically pact with Hot Topic?



Only those whose patrons are Edgelords . . .


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## Rabulias (Apr 28, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> With Marc and Steven both dead dead, Personality #3 is all that's left to save the day.





Umbran said:


> Technically, they are all dead.  They only have the one body.



Umbran is right. If the common theory is correct, there is more proof in that the third personality is also in Marc's afterlife - in the bumping sarcophagus.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Apr 28, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Technically, Khonshu is more of a celestial.



Well, sure. But he looks like an undead (bird-skull head, mummy wrappings) and the Warlock subclass that best fits Moon Knight is the Undead Patron. I'm not saying that Khonshu actually is undead, just that it fits 5e the best if you want to play a character like Moon Knight.


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## MoonSong (Apr 29, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Hard to do with a bullet in the chest, though.



That is why it would be a plot twist? n_n


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## Stalker0 (Apr 29, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I hope note.  I'd prefer it be Marc wrangling with his personal trauma without it being the villain's fault.



Yeah I actually think the Harrow persona is in some ways exactly what he says he is, he's there to help Marc through his trauma....he just happens to be created by Marc's mind. It is basically the personification of Marc's mind trying to deal with his trauma.


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## Older Beholder (Apr 29, 2022)

My love for this series has swung back and forth like a pendulum (or an unbalanced scale) with each episode.
As someone that knows nothing of the story, or where it's going, or what is happening most the time on the show, I think I've much preferred the odd numbered episodes so far. Not that eps 2 and 4 were bad, but in both cases I think I was losing some interest, only to be back on board with the following episode.

Curious to see how they can wrap everything up in the next episode, can't help thinking there'll be a season 2 with so much going on. 

Again, have to mention Oscar Isaac's performance, that last episode was probably some of the best acting we've seen in any MCU project so far.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Apr 29, 2022)

The Lizard Wizard said:


> Again, have to mention Oscar Isaac's performance, that last episode was probably some of the best acting we've seen in any MCU project so far.



I 100% agree. I was just blown away by how good his acting was in this episode.


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## pukunui (Apr 29, 2022)

Don't know how true it is, but I've heard a rumor that the finale will _not_ be longer than any of the other episodes. I really don't know how they're going to wrap everything up nicely in less than one hour. I am cautiously optimistic that it will be a satisfying wrap.

Next week is a big one, with _Moon Knight_'s finale and the debut of _Dr Strange and the Multiverse of Madness!_


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## Tonguez (Apr 29, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Next week is a big one, with _Moon Knight_'s finale and the debut of _Dr Strange and the Multiverse of Madness!_



oh! I wonder if thats a hint about how they’re going to manage to ‘fit‘ everything into episode 6 - make a direct leap into the multiverse!!!!


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## MarkB (Apr 29, 2022)

The Lizard Wizard said:


> Again, have to mention Oscar Isaac's performance, that last episode was probably some of the best acting we've seen in any MCU project so far.



That, and the flawless effects work. Watching the last episode, I just wasn't even questioning how they put together the same person as two characters on-screen, it was just that seamless.


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## Rabulias (Apr 29, 2022)

MarkB said:


> That, and the flawless effects work. Watching the last episode, I just wasn't even questioning how they put together the same person as two characters on-screen, it was just that seamless.



Oscar Isaac's work here reminds me of Tatiana Maslany's incredible performance on _Orphan Black_. I also imagine some of the filming techniques developed on that show contributed here. Looking forward to episode 6!


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## Ryujin (Apr 29, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> Oscar Isaac's work here reminds me of Tatiana Maslany's incredible performance on _Orphan Black_. I also imagine some of the filming techniques developed on that show contributed here. Looking forward to episode 6!



I was just going to say that in response to MarkB's comment. They managed 4 characters played by her on-screen at the same time in the "Clone Club dance scene." It was done by using stand-ins for Maslany. She then matched the actions of each of the stand-ins, in multiple retakes, which were then masked over the original to get all 4 characters she was playing on-camera at the same time.


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## Eric V (Apr 29, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Don't know how true it is, but I've heard a rumor that the finale will _not_ be longer than any of the other episodes. I really don't know how they're going to wrap everything up nicely in less than one hour. I am cautiously optimistic that it will be a satisfying wrap.



I really wish Disney would be willing to do a series longer than 6 episodes; true some of the Netflix shows didn't justify their 13-episode length, but this pendulum has swung too far in the other direction.

Been a great series so far though, that's for sure.


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## Umbran (Apr 29, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> oh! I wonder if thats a hint about how they’re going to manage to ‘fit‘ everything into episode 6 - make a direct leap into the multiverse!!!!




Somehow, that doesn't sound like something that would help bring anything to satisfying conclusion.


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## Thomas Shey (Apr 29, 2022)

Eric V said:


> I really wish Disney would be willing to do a series longer than 6 episodes; true some of the Netflix shows didn't justify their 13-episode length, but this pendulum has swung too far in the other direction.
> 
> Been a great series so far though, that's for sure.




I can see doing some 8 ep ones, but longer than that, I think, just didn't work in this context; I thought _all_ the Netflix ones either sagged in the middle or looked like two seasons smashed together, except for Defenders (which was, notably, 8 eps).


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## DeviousQuail (Apr 29, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> I can see doing some 8 ep ones, but longer than that, I think, just didn't work in this context; I thought _all_ the Netflix ones either sagged in the middle or looked like two seasons smashed together, except for Defenders (which was, notably, 8 eps).



Doing a season with two parts could be a nice compromise. Take a month or so off to let the first part breathe and then build the hype for the second part. It would also let you do variable episode counts for each part so that you don't feel pressured to add stuff for padding.


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## MarkB (Apr 29, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> I can see doing some 8 ep ones, but longer than that, I think, just didn't work in this context; I thought _all_ the Netflix ones either sagged in the middle or looked like two seasons smashed together, except for Defenders (which was, notably, 8 eps).



Yeah, Picard is feeling mildly over-extended at ten episodes. Some of the middle ones could have had stood some trimming.


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## Ryujin (Apr 29, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Yeah, Picard is feeling mildly over-extended at ten episodes. Some of the middle ones could have had stood some trimming.



I get the impression that some directors and writers are still getting the hang of long-form storytelling and they're simply making what they would if it was going to be a movie, without the need to cut it down to 1.5-3.0 hours.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 29, 2022)

Back in episode 4, there is a Bingo game going on, but the letters and numbers called out are not normal. They are B-22, G-15, B-7, N-39, I-22, and T-16. Some of those numbers do not match the standard numbering and, of course, there is no T in Bingo. I found this article that shows the numbers, both called out and actually on Marc's card, reference specific comic book issues, several of which seem to connect to the show.





__





						Moon Knight Episode 4: The Bingo Card Explained
					

Moon Knight Episode 4 has so much confusing things going in that there are a lot of questions that are longing to be answered especially on the latter part of it when the scene changes to the mental institution after Marc gets shot to the chest. A lot of “what just happened” came out of...




					epicstream.com
				




Has anyone seen anything other theories?


----------



## MarkB (Apr 29, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Back in episode 4, there is a Bingo game going on, but the letters and numbers called out are not normal. They are B-22, G-15, B-7, N-39, I-22, and T-16. Some of those numbers do not match the standard numbering and, of course, there is no T in Bingo. I found this article that shows the numbers, both called out and actually on Marc's card, reference specific comic book issues, several of which seem to connect to the show.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think the last of those letter-number pairs relates to bulls-eyeing womp rats.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 30, 2022)

Oscar Isaac was certainly good this episode, playing against himself and going through a vast array of emotions in a single episode. 



Ryujin said:


> I was just going to say that in response to MarkB's comment. They managed 4 characters played by her on-screen at the same time in the "Clone Club dance scene." It was done by using stand-ins for Maslany. She then matched the actions of each of the stand-ins, in multiple retakes, which were then masked over the original to get all 4 characters she was playing on-camera at the same time.



Yeah, Maslany was just amazing. It must have been both incredibly stressful job, but also so much artistical fun to have worked out all these nuances, and even combine them when one clone was pretending to be another clone.


----------



## Morrus (Apr 30, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Not just the Marvel shows. Picard's been quite similar in that regard.
> 
> Maybe there's something about the streaming model that makes them think this is a good 'shape' for these series.



I think American show makers are still learning how to pace shorter shows rather than 24-week seasons. It’ll get there.


----------



## Ryujin (Apr 30, 2022)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Oscar Isaac was certainly good this episode, playing against himself and going through a vast array of emotions in a single episode.
> 
> 
> Yeah, Maslany was just amazing. It must have been both incredibly stressful job, but also so much artistical fun to have worked out all these nuances, and even combine them when one clone was pretending to be another clone.



That show demonstrated just how versatile an actress she is. Hopefully she'll get to put more of that on display in She Hulk.


----------



## Rabulias (May 1, 2022)

MoonSong said:


> Plot twist the third personality is alive and in control of the body





Umbran said:


> I am half hoping they use the fact that it isn't broadcast to be flexible, and have that final episode be a bit longer.  With Wandavision, for example, the final episode was twice as long as the first.



Hmm... there's a report that episode 6 is the _shortest _episode of the show, clocking in around 42 minutes. (Moon Knight Season Finale Run Time Is Rumoured to Break MCU Records? - FandomWire)

Earlier in the thread I have dismissed the idea that the unknown alter is somehow still alive, but if this latest news is true, I half-jokingly thought the final episode will show Marc dealing with his issues, rescuing Khonshu (maybe the afterlife is the same or adjacent to the place where Khonshu is imprisoned?), and mentally girding himself for the fight against Harrow. Khonshu prepares to resurrect him, and the moon god says "Hrm. That's odd..." as Marc's perception of the afterlife fades and he returns to his body -- _already standing up_, and encircled by the bodies of a very dead Harrow and his followers. Marc's reflection catches his eye and says "All done here. You're welcome!" in a definitely not-Steven accent and/or manner. Cut to Marc's perplexed face and then cut to black.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (May 1, 2022)

Or Marc really is dead, and by the end of the episode Layla does become the new avatar of Khonshu. I can't even imagine the amount of sexist fanboy rage that would cause to be directed at Disney.


----------



## Ryujin (May 1, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Or Marc really is dead, and by the end of the episode Layla does become the new avatar of Khonshu. I can't even imagine the amount of sexist fanboy rage that would cause to be directed at Disney.



Stop! You're making me want to see it


----------



## Omand (May 1, 2022)

OK, out there theory time.

So, what if there is not a third personality, or rather, what if Marc does not have a third personality?

Yes, we saw the sarcophagus that was chained up and rattling around as if a monster was inside.  But we also saw Steven start to take great joy in smashing the dead on the journey through Duat.

What if Steven has a sub-personality?  What if the Steven persona is actually fractured as well.  Steven was Marc's escape from his mother's violence, but we saw her coming after "Steven" before Marc pulled Steven from the room when they were exploring memories.  So, maybe Steven was aware of the abuse (or became aware during that specific instance that we saw cut short), and his sub-personality was fractured.

It would explain why there were only two hearts on the scale to be weighed instead of three, and Steven integrating his internal split by accepting that his mother is dead, and accepting the violence within himself (by embracing violence to help Marc) healed that part.

A different way at looking at the same set of circumstances.

But, at this point, any of our theories could be correct with the number of twists we have been presented with.  I mean, I never expected to have a hippo guide show up (I mean, I should have considering the ancient Egyptian theme, but ...).

Cheers


----------



## Omand (May 1, 2022)

Oh, and I agree on Oscar Isaac's great acting in this (and all of the episodes).

Plus, I think Marc/Steven are physically dead in the real world at the moment.  The question is how, not if, they come back to life before the season concludes.  Layla may indeed become Khonshu's avatar, but I am fairly certain that Marc/Steven are not written out of the equation.


----------



## Tonguez (May 1, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> Hmm... there's a report that episode 6 is the _shortest _episode of the show, clocking in around 42 minutes. (Moon Knight Season Finale Run Time Is Rumoured to Break MCU Records? - FandomWire)
> 
> Earlier in the thread I have dismissed the idea that the unknown alter is somehow still alive, but if this latest news is true, I half-jokingly thought the final episode will show Marc dealing with his issues, rescuing Khonshu (maybe the afterlife is the same or adjacent to the place where Khonshu is imprisoned?), and mentally girding himself for the fight against Harrow. Khonshu prepares to resurrect him, and the moon god says "Hrm. That's odd..." as Marc's perception of the afterlife fades and he returns to his body -- _already standing up_, and encircled by the bodies of a very dead Harrow and his followers. Marc's reflection catches his eye and says "All done here. You're welcome!" in a definitely not-Steven accent and/or manner. Cut to Marc's perplexed face and then cut to black.



Strangely enough I had the thought last night - what if the third personality was already dead (that could be why its trapped the sarcophagus) Mark and Steven were the living souls but third (Jake) is now released as a ‘Moonknights Mummy’


----------



## Rabulias (May 1, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Strangely enough I had the thought last night - what if the third personality was already dead (that could be why its trapped the sarcophagus) Mark and Steven were the living souls but third (Jake) is now released as a ‘Moonknights Mummy’



Interesting ideas. I may have to go back and watch episode 4 again, but I thought Steven was also trapped in a sarcophagus, only getting out when Marc opened it. Maybe I imagined it? If not, I took this to mean that Marc was the original personality, and his alternate personalities in the afterlife are trapped in sarcophagi.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (May 1, 2022)

By the way, despite the almost complete lack of MCU connections or easter eggs so far, aside from the mentions of the Ancestral Plane and Majipoor, episode 2 did confirm the show is post-Snap Return because there is a bus billboard for the GRC and their work reuniting people who returned from the Snap. It appears so quickly that I did not even see it the first time I watched the episode.

Something else I had totally missed is that Disney+, in their MCU in timeline order for viewing, Moon Knight is listed after Hawkeye, which is Christmas 2024. So with the nice weather in London, this would make it Spring/Summer 2025?


----------



## Morrus (May 1, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> So with the nice weather in London, this would make it Spring/Summer 2025?



In some parallel universe, maybe!


----------



## Ryujin (May 1, 2022)

Morrus said:


> In some parallel universe, maybe!



Don't you get sunny days like once a decade, or something?


----------



## Haiku Elvis (May 1, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Don't you get sunny days like once a decade, or something?



You get anything from a week to two months of good weather randomly distributed between March and October. 
You could get a glorious summer with nary a clound for weeks or 3 nice days in March, two in September and cold wet and miserable the rest of the time and like a Forrest Gump box of chocolates you never know which you're going to get.


----------



## Morrus (May 1, 2022)

And this year ain't looking great so far!


----------



## Ryujin (May 2, 2022)

Haiku Elvis said:


> You get anything from a week to two months of good weather randomly distributed between March and October.
> You could get a glorious summer with nary a clound for weeks or 3 nice days in March, two in September and cold wet and miserable the rest of the time and like a Forrest Gump box of chocolates you never know which you're going to get.



All my friends in Seattle kept telling me how wet and miserable it was there, all the time. First time that I visited was in the Spring of 2016. April showers, and all of that. Except that it was almost 90 degrees and sunny for my whole 2 week stay. Broke records.

On subsequent visit I was treated to their "rail." In Ontario, Canada we get Midwestern US style rain. As in dumping water out of your boots type. They get sun showers by comparison.


----------



## Umbran (May 2, 2022)

Omand said:


> What if Steven has a sub-personality?




So, what if they threw away all the work they did on making the dissociated identity disorder as respectful as they could, for a unnecessary wacky plot twist?

I mean, that would be Hollywood, but I'm not seeing it as a better approach than just having a third identity.


----------



## trappedslider (May 2, 2022)




----------



## Omand (May 3, 2022)

Umbran said:


> So, what if they threw away all the work they did on making the dissociated identity disorder as respectful as they could, for a unnecessary wacky plot twist?
> 
> I mean, that would be Hollywood, but I'm not seeing it as a better approach than just having a third identity.



I did say it was an out there theory.  

You may well be correct, they have been very respectful in terms of mental illness on the show so far.

Cheers


----------



## Rabulias (May 3, 2022)

_The Moon Knight Rises_.


----------



## Ryujin (May 3, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> _The Moon Knight Rises_.



"Search for Marc."


----------



## pukunui (May 4, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> Interesting ideas. I may have to go back and watch episode 4 again, but I thought Steven was also trapped in a sarcophagus, only getting out when Marc opened it. Maybe I imagined it? If not, I took this to mean that Marc was the original personality, and his alternate personalities in the afterlife are trapped in sarcophagi.



Yes, Steven is trapped in a sarcophagus that is lying down. Marc pushes the lid off and Steven hops out (without noticing Marc at first).

The other sarcophagus is standing upright. Marc takes one look and keeps going. Steven sort of gestures at it as if he wants to ask Marc about it but ends up just following Marc.


On a different note, we've observed previously that the moon during the credits was waxing fuller with each episode. However, I noticed that at the end of episode 5, it had skipped over being full and was waning into a crescent moon again! (Can't take screenshots since Disney+ doesn't allow that.)


Also, I'm wondering if we _have_ already seen personality #3. During the hallucinations of being in a psych ward, there have been some scenes where Marc has a bloodied nose, but not every time. And not when he's in the Steven personality. Could that be personality #3?

Can it be this evening already?! I want to see the finale!


----------



## pukunui (May 4, 2022)

OK that was epic! I didn’t think they’d be able to pull it off in such a short timeframe but somehow they did!

And of course they’ve set things up for a sequel.

Also, Layla was badass as Taweret’s avatar!


----------



## MarkB (May 4, 2022)

pukunui said:


> OK that was epic! I didn’t think they’d be able to pull it off in such a short timeframe but somehow they did!
> 
> And of course they’ve set things up for a sequel.
> 
> Also, Layla was badass as Taweret’s avatar!



"Are you an Egyptian superhero?"

"I am."

Darn straight. Spin-off series, please!


----------



## Tonguez (May 4, 2022)

Tawaret is my new favourite superhero
)Though lets spare a thought for Antonia Salib - cast in the MCU as a fun loving Egyptian woman, then only seen as a Hippo, her super hero form played by someone else!)

The death of Osiris was unsatisfying though, especially as he’s god of death and ressurection!

and still didnt see #3 in action
and why a spanish speaking assasin?


----------



## Ryujin (May 4, 2022)

Well that's certainly one way to choreograph a fight scene's conclusion   

Don't skip the stinger scene.


----------



## Ryujin (May 4, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Tawaret is my new favourite superhero
> )Though lets spare a thought for Antonia Salib - cast as a fun loving Egyptian woman, then only seen as a Hippo, her super hero form played by someone else!)
> 
> The death of Osiris was unsatisfying though, especially as he’s god of death and ressurection!
> ...



The death scene of the god of death and resurrection should be unsatisfying, because it's not permanent.

Why not a Spanish speaking assassin? Isaac speaks fluent Spanish.


----------



## Tonguez (May 4, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> The death scene of the god of death and resurrection should be unsatisfying, because it's not permanent.
> 
> Why not a Spanish speaking assassin? Isaac speaks fluent Spanish.



His name is the anglosaxon Jake Lockley though, other than that no reason not to speak Spanish, it just seemed a bit random - until I reflected that the personalities are in Marcs head, so maybe he knew some spanish gangsters in his chicago childhood


----------



## Rabulias (May 4, 2022)

Quite an ending! They really did so much but it did not feel too rushed. I loved the Layla/Taweret exchange, with Taweret exuberantly exclaiming "we're gonna have so much fun!" 
The battle between Ammit and Khonshu in Cairo was epic, a reverse mirror of the fight between their avatars on the streets below.
I also liked the bargaining scene between Khonshu and Marc/Steven, but I noted that when Steven made the deal he said "both of us" leaving Khonshu free to continue his work using Jake (who seems more than happy to oblige).
Really hoping to see a second season of this!


----------



## MarkB (May 4, 2022)

The one thing missing was Layla's superhero name. Marc/Steven is Moon Knight, so is she Duat Defender? Hippo Woman doesn't quite seem right.


----------



## Ryujin (May 4, 2022)

MarkB said:


> The one thing missing was Layla's superhero name. Marc/Steven is Moon Knight, so is she Duat Defender? Hippo Woman doesn't quite seem right.



A quick search turned up "Scarlet Scarab."


----------



## Rabulias (May 4, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> A quick search turned up "Scarlet Scarab."



Thanks for that. The only Scarlet Scarab I know from the comics was an Egyptian villain (and male, too), and had no ties to Taweret as far as I recall. It's a cool name and I am glad to see it redeemed for a hero. My only complaint is she does not seem to have any scarlet in her costume that I could see.


----------



## Tonguez (May 4, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> Thanks for that. The only Scarlet Scarab I know from the comics was an Egyptian villain (and male, too), and had no ties to Taweret as far as I recall. It's a cool name and I am glad to see it redeemed for a hero. My only complaint is she does not seem to have any scarlet in her costume that I could see.



Laylas an entirely new character created for the show, so (maybe) theyve taken an old hero moniker and applied it to Layla - the only connection is that the characters are Egyptian


----------



## Thomas Shey (May 4, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Also, Layla was badass as Taweret’s avatar!




I have to wonder if after her experience there, and particularly the one young woman's response to her, she's going to be in as big a hurry to make her relationship with Taweret "temporary" as she went in thinking.


----------



## DeviousQuail (May 4, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Laylas an entirely new character created for the show, so (maybe) theyve taken an old hero moniker and applied it to Layla - the only connection is that the characters are Egyptian



Would that make her the first hero in the MCU that's not from the comics?

Also, a pretty great series all the way through. We even got gods fighting gods kaiju style so that's awesome. Seems like a season 2 should be in the works for these characters.


----------



## Tonguez (May 4, 2022)

DeviousQuail said:


> Would that make her the first hero in the MCU that's not from the comics?



yes it would  
thats quite a significant milestone - lets see if she gets canonised in the comicbooks too


----------



## wicked cool (May 4, 2022)

can someone explain why they ended up back in the sylum and why the DR was bleeding?


----------



## Tonguez (May 4, 2022)

wicked cool said:


> can someone explain why they ended up back in the sylum and why the DR was bleeding?



For the bleeding you’ll need to rewatch the start of episode 1 - call back to that ‘villain signature’

afaik - the Asylum at the end was Harrows delusion not Marcs, Marc realised that and so was able to remove himself from it.

 The asylum in the stinger Im unsure if that was real world or not…


----------



## pukunui (May 4, 2022)

I was just a little disappointed that we didn’t see Layla with Marc/Steven at the end. She is their wife after all, and now that Marc is “free” from Khonshu, he should feel free to get back together with her, right?

What was the significance of there being two goldfish?


----------



## MarkB (May 4, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I was just a little disappointed that we didn’t see Layla with Marc/Steven at the end. She is their wife after all, and now that Marc is “free” from Khonshu, he should feel free to get back together with her, right?



Which doesn't mean she's free to get back together with him. She has a whole new life now, and no doubt it's going to take some time for her to come to terms with it.


pukunui said:


> What was the significance of there being two goldfish?



The goldfish was replaced during one of Steven's early blackouts. Having them both there is symbolic of Marc and Steven now coexisting.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (May 4, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> most would know of the Ennead



Most who? People in general? I very much doubt it.


----------



## pukunui (May 4, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Which doesn't mean she's free to get back together with him. She has a whole new life now, and no doubt it's going to take some time for her to come to terms with it.



Maybe. That’s assuming she’s still Taweret’s avatar. 

I was just hoping for some resolution of the Marc-Layla-Steven love triangle. I mean, it's obvious Layla still cares for Marc, and he still cares for her, and Layla and Steven are totally in love over their shared Egyptian geekiness, so it would be fun to see them explore the dynamic of how you love and have a relationship with someone with DID, especially now that Steven and Marc are happily sharing the body instead of fighting over it. Hopefully if we get a season 2, this is something they'll explore there (or in a Layla as Taweret's avatar spin-off).



MarkB said:


> The goldfish was replaced during one of Steven's early blackouts. Having them both there is symbolic of Marc and Steven now coexisting.



I had assumed that Gus the one-finned goldfish had died from lack of food while Marc/Steven was in Switzerland.

That said, maybe Gus and/or his one fin were just a figment of Steven's imagination - a memory of the one-finned fish his little brother had drawn on the day he died.

Speaking of which - the dead bird that Steven sees outside the cave in that memory ... is the implication there that Khonshu has been passively observing Marc for his entire life, or is it that Khonshu subtly manipulated Marc into insisting that it would be OK to go into the cave, knowing that it would cause Roro's death and push Marc down the path to becoming his avatar?


----------



## Ryujin (May 4, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Which doesn't mean she's free to get back together with him. She has a whole new life now, and no doubt it's going to take some time for her to come to terms with it.
> 
> The goldfish was replaced during one of Steven's early blackouts. Having them both there is symbolic of Marc and Steven now coexisting.



Maybe. Or maybe it's as simple as, "OK, who bought the OTHER goldfish?"


----------



## Tonguez (May 4, 2022)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Most who? People in general? I very much doubt it.



Um,  maybe read the whole sentence?



> amateur Egyptology was a big geekdom up to the 1960s and most would know of the Ennead




its referring to amateur Egyptology geeks, of which there are a lot…


----------



## Ryujin (May 4, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Um,  maybe read the whole sentence?
> 
> its referring to amateur Egyptology geeks, of which there are a lot…



There was a bit of a resurgence in the late '60s/early '70s too, because of von Daniken.


----------



## pukunui (May 4, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> The death scene of the god of death and resurrection should be unsatisfying, because it's not permanent.



The question I have is: did the gods die or just their avatars? Was it a similar situation to killing Ammit by killing Harrow while she's inside him? 

(As an aside, when Layla was searching for Khonshu's ushabti, I was thinking "She should just smash them all! Release all the gods and cause a whole lot of chaos!")



Ryujin said:


> Why not a Spanish speaking assassin? Isaac speaks fluent Spanish.



While "Jake Lockley" isn't a very Spanish name, I'm guessing that, like Steven, this persona is modeled on a movie character or something. I still think Jake is the part of Marc that has internalized all his mother's violence.

I also don't see how Marc could balance his heart while Jake was still locked away inside. I'll call that a bit of a plot hole, like how he created Steven to shield himself from his mother's violence and yet Marc is the one who remembers it, not Steven.


----------



## MarkB (May 5, 2022)

pukunui said:


> The question I have is: did the gods die or just their avatars? Was it a similar situation to killing Ammit by killing Harrow while she's inside him?



Just their avatars. Unlike Ammit, the other gods weren't sealed away inside their mortal avatars.


----------



## Ryujin (May 5, 2022)

pukunui said:


> The question I have is: did the gods die or just their avatars? Was it a similar situation to killing Ammit by killing Harrow while she's inside him?
> 
> (As an aside, when Layla was searching for Khonshu's ushabti, I was thinking "She should just smash them all! Release all the gods and cause a whole lot of chaos!")



They had to effectively lock Ammit into Harrow's body before they would be able to kill her. I don't think that the avatars deaths would result in the deaths of the gods they represent, any more than killing Moon Knight would result in the death of Khonshu.


----------



## RuinousPowers (May 5, 2022)

So, Ammit was cool, and surprisingly honest about everything. Didn't seem to be any underhanded interpretations. That was...unexpected. Khonshu's talk about freewill is kinda moot if Ammit can 100% know if someone is going to do evil. I figured there would be a "people can change their fate" or "see, you were wrong" moment, and there wasn't. 

I didn't like the asylum stuff. I liked it less after the character(s) figured out it wasn't real, and I'm just confused why we went back there in the last episode.


----------



## Ryujin (May 5, 2022)

Chris Currie said:


> So, Ammit was cool, and surprisingly honest about everything. Didn't seem to be any underhanded interpretations. That was...unexpected. Khonshu's talk about freewill is kinda moot if Ammit can 100% know if someone is going to do evil. I figured there would be a "people can change their fate" or "see, you were wrong" moment, and there wasn't.
> 
> I didn't like the asylum stuff. I liked it less after the character(s) figured out it wasn't real, and I'm just confused why we went back there in the last episode.



But can she, really? And what is the criteria for being worthy, in Ammit's eyes? Is it based on 4000 year old Egyptian theology? I think that there would be an awful lot of people, these days, who would fall through the cracks on that.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (May 5, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Um,  maybe read the whole sentence?
> 
> 
> 
> its referring to amateur Egyptology geeks, of which there are a lot…



Are there, though? 
Seriously, you're overestimating the commonality of the knowledge in question, and the show is very clearly setting the character up to be an expert.


----------



## Rabulias (May 5, 2022)

pukunui said:


> (As an aside, when Layla was searching for Khonshu's ushabti, I was thinking "She should just smash them all! Release all the gods and cause a whole lot of chaos!")



Without knowing _how _and _why _the various gods were locked away, this would be a very risky move. Some may be worse than Ammit. Others may want to be locked away and respond poorly to being released ("Why did you awaken me, mortal insect?").


----------



## pukunui (May 5, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> Without knowing _how _and _why _the various gods were locked away, this would be a very risky move. Some may be worse than Ammit. Others may want to be locked away and respond poorly to being released ("Why did you awaken me, mortal insect?").



Oh, I get that. For sure. It just was a passing thought.


----------



## Umbran (May 5, 2022)

pukunui said:


> The question I have is: did the gods die or just their avatars? Was it a similar situation to killing Ammit by killing Harrow while she's inside him?




Unlikely.



pukunui said:


> (As an aside, when Layla was searching for Khonshu's ushabti, I was thinking "She should just smash them all! Release all the gods and cause a whole lot of chaos!")




Her opinion of the gods... isn't spectacular, though.  



pukunui said:


> While "Jake Lockley" isn't a very Spanish name, I'm guessing that, like Steven, this persona is modeled on a movie character or something. I still think Jake is the part of Marc that has internalized all his mother's violence.




In the comics, Jake Lockley is a personality who is  cab driver, and does a lot of street-level information gathering and investigation for Moon Knight.  He isn't hyper-violent, though.

In this, I don't think he just "internalized" his mother's violence.  I think he was the one who experienced most of it, taking the driver's seat while she was beating him.



pukunui said:


> I also don't see how Marc could balance his heart while Jake was still locked away inside.




If I am correct, he cannot be balanced while Jake is out and around - Jake is not healthy.



pukunui said:


> I'll call that a bit of a plot hole, like how he created Steven to shield himself from his mother's violence and yet Marc is the one who remembers it, not Steven.




I don't think he created Steven to "shield" himself from the violence.  He used Steven to _forget_ his mother's violence.  Steven was _unaware_ of it.  Steven is where he goes to have a normal life unburdened by the trauma.  I think Jake was the shield that took the actual hits.


----------



## RuinousPowers (May 5, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> But can she, really? And what is the criteria for being worthy, in Ammit's eyes? Is it based on 4000 year old Egyptian theology? I think that there would be an awful lot of people, these days, who would fall through the cracks on that.



That's the kind of stuff I was waiting for, but instead we get "we know they are going to commit the evil, but we have to wait until they do it to punish them". We never hear that Ammit's judgment is wrong, only that it's prophylactic instead of retribution.


----------



## Blue (May 5, 2022)

Chris Currie said:


> So, Ammit was cool, and surprisingly honest about everything. Didn't seem to be any underhanded interpretations.



Sure, she was honest.  But she also chose an unbalanced avatar when even Harrow knew he should be put to death and a balanced one picked.



Chris Currie said:


> That was...unexpected. Khonshu's talk about freewill is kinda moot if Ammit can 100% know if someone is going to do evil. I figured there would be a "people can change their fate" or "see, you were wrong" moment, and there wasn't.



Yeah, it's hard to have both free will and predestination.  I agree that I expected more of a philosophical battle there since they can't both be right.


----------



## Stalker0 (May 5, 2022)

Blue said:


> Yeah, it's hard to have both free will and predestination.  I agree that I expected more of a philosophical battle there since they can't both be right.



If Ammit does have foresight instead of predestination, we don't have a conflict....if foresight can be wrong.

Really good episode, I too was delightedly surprised that Ammit was exactly as she seemed, no plot twist, no hidden scheme. Just straight up "this is what I believe, and this is what I'm going to do". I also really liked Harrow at the end, when she said he was imbalanced, he just straight up said "alright I'm ready to die". He was a true believer, and as evil as you might think he was, he was no hypocrite.

Alright, Layla go beat up falcon and take his stuff, your my new favorite!


----------



## Rabulias (May 5, 2022)

MarkB said:


> The goldfish was replaced during one of Steven's early blackouts. Having them both there is symbolic of Marc and Steven now coexisting.





pukunui said:


> I had assumed that Gus the one-finned goldfish had died from lack of food while Marc/Steven was in Switzerland.
> 
> That said, maybe Gus and/or his one fin were just a figment of Steven's imagination - a memory of the one-finned fish his little brother had drawn on the day he died.





Ryujin said:


> Maybe. Or maybe it's as simple as, "OK, who bought the OTHER goldfish?"



Hmmm... I agree that I think Gus died while Marc was out of town. How did they find another single-finned goldfish?

Also, Steven noticed time skips, and other odd things indicating Marc's activities, and the both of them have noticed the blackouts when neither one of them was in control. If they were really in control of the body, and Jake and Khonshu were still moonlighting ("moonknighting?"), I think they would notice more and more blackout incidents and get to the bottom of it. 

I am wondering now if the last scene with Marc and Steven (and the goldfish) is some other dreamscape where they are kept by Khonshu now that Jake is in control. Putting them into some illusionary reality to keep them happy and out of the way seems like just the ticket.

Have I mentioned I want a second season of this? 


pukunui said:


> I also don't see how Marc could balance his heart while Jake was still locked away inside. I'll call that a bit of a plot hole, like how he created Steven to shield himself from his mother's violence and yet Marc is the one who remembers it, not Steven.



Looking back at it, Taweret _only _had Marc's and Steven's hearts and tried to balance them. Jake (and presumably his heart) was still locked away in the sarcophagus.
--
I was also pleased to see a variation on my prediction come true, with Marc/Steven getting back in control to find all the bad guys dealt with around them.

Disney/Marvel, I really want season 2!


----------



## pukunui (May 5, 2022)

Are people forgetting that Khonshu isn't really a good guy?


Rabulias said:


> I am wondering now if the last scene with Marc and Steven (and the goldfish) is some other dreamscape where they are kept by Khonshu now that Jake is in control. Putting them into some illusionary reality to keep them happy and out of the way seems like just the ticket.



That's an interesting theory!

Let's hope we get a season 2 (and sooner rather than later - like we know we're getting a season 2 of _Loki_ but we have no idea when ...).


----------



## Richards (May 5, 2022)

Season 2 of _Loki_ is already out and has gotten really good reviews...unfortunately, that was in a different "variant" reality from this one.  Bummer for us, I know.

Johnathan


----------



## Zaukrie (May 5, 2022)

Really hated that ending. Not that it was a real ending....I didn't much care for the last three so that much.... Not that I hated the non super stuff, I liked the idea....I didn't like the actual content. Oh well. They can't all be my cup of tea


----------



## Zaukrie (May 5, 2022)

To be clear, I like it more now that Ive seen the end credit scene, which really really really should have been part of the show....
I really liked our new Egyptian hero also.

It wasn't bad, it just wasn't right for me


----------



## BRayne (May 5, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Laylas an entirely new character created for the show, so (maybe) theyve taken an old hero moniker and applied it to Layla - the only connection is that the characters are Egyptian




Well the original Scarlet Scarab is Dr. Abdul Faoul, and Layla's father, who called her "little scarab", was named Dr. Abdallah El-Faouly.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (May 5, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> The death of Osiris was unsatisfying though, especially as he’s god of death and ressurection!



I'm pretty sure it was only avatars that where killed, not the gods themselves.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (May 5, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> A quick search turned up "Scarlet Scarab."



Yeah, she had a scarab logo on her chest.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (May 5, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Speaking of which - the dead bird that Steven sees outside the cave in that memory ... is the implication there that Khonshu has been passively observing Marc for his entire life, or is it that Khonshu subtly manipulated Marc into insisting that it would be OK to go into the cave, knowing that it would cause Roro's death and push Marc down the path to becoming his avatar?



Or maybe the memory acquired the dead bird after Marc met Khonshu? Memory isn't a video camera, our experiences change it.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (May 5, 2022)

Chris Currie said:


> So, Ammit was cool, and surprisingly honest about everything. Didn't seem to be any underhanded interpretations. That was...unexpected. Khonshu's talk about freewill is kinda moot if Ammit can 100% know if someone is going to do evil. I figured there would be a "people can change their fate" or "see, you were wrong" moment, and there wasn't.



I was rather disappointed by the lack of twists. However, she is shown to be a hypocrite for not eating Harrow.


----------



## MarkB (May 5, 2022)

Chris Currie said:


> That's the kind of stuff I was waiting for, but instead we get "we know they are going to commit the evil, but we have to wait until they do it to punish them". We never hear that Ammit's judgment is wrong, only that it's prophylactic instead of retribution.



Yeah, we do. We see Marc and Steven's hearts out of balance, the scales unable to judge them - they could go either way, and eventually Marc does achieve balance. His fate wasn't predetermined.

And the fact that Ammit chooses an imbalanced soul as her avatar is a strong indication that she knows that what she's doing is wrong. A balanced avatar would come to oppose her - she needs a Harrow for what she intends to do.


----------



## pukunui (May 5, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Or maybe the memory acquired the dead bird after Marc met Khonshu? Memory isn't a video camera, our experiences change it.



Well, sure. But then Steven comments to Marc that Khonshu had been manipulating him right from the start, which I took to be a reference to the dead bird outside the cave.



MarkB said:


> A balanced avatar would come to oppose her



Precisely. Which is why, as she said herself, she ended up entombed for thousands of years.

As an aside, was Alexander the Great meant to be her previous avatar, or was his mummified corpse just a convenient place for her previous avatar to hide her ushabti in?


----------



## Paul Farquhar (May 5, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Well, sure. But then Steven comments to Marc that Khonshu had been manipulating him right from the start, which I took to be a reference to the dead bird outside the cave.



We don't know that that is true though. Deliberately engineering the death of an innocent would be out of character for Khonshu.


pukunui said:


> As an aside, was Alexander the Great meant to be her previous avatar, or was his mummified corpse just a convenient place for her previous avatar to hide her ushabti in?



Steven concludes that Alexander was her avatar. Presumably the one who imprisoned her, although that would mean she was imprisoned for 2350 years, rather than 1000. Maybe she lost count?


----------



## pukunui (May 5, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> We don't know that that is true though. Deliberately engineering the death of an innocent would be out of character for Khonshu.



Fair enough. He is a pretty big jerk, but maybe not that big of one. What do _you_ think the bird skeleton was meant to represent?



Paul Farquhar said:


> Steven concludes that Alexander was her avatar. Presumably the one who imprisoned her, although that would mean she was imprisoned for 2350 years, rather than 1000. Maybe she lost count?



Steven might have come to the wrong conclusion. I mean, Alexander wouldn't have put the ushabti in his own throat before he died, right? I mean, he could have left instructions to do that after he died, and perhaps there's some hint of an implication that he died on purpose rather than being killed in battle far from Egypt. It's all a bit murky, and I doubt we'll ever get a definitive answer now that Harrow is dead. If we get a season 2, it will focus on some other villain and may not even involve any of the other Egyptian gods.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (May 5, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Fair enough. He is a pretty big jerk, but maybe not that big of one. What do _you_ think the bird skeleton was meant to represent?



It's Khonshu, but it wasn't part of the original event. All memories have an unreliable narrator, even your own.


pukunui said:


> Steven might have come to the wrong conclusion. I mean, Alexander wouldn't have put the ushabti in his own throat before he died, right?



Perhaps, but he is the closest to an expert in these things available. And the ushabti must have been placed inside the mummy during the mummification process. Why bother if it was nothing to do with him? I think the point is, Alexander's deeds could be considered superheroic. That's because he was a super, at least in the MCU.


----------



## pukunui (May 5, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> It's Khonshu, but it wasn't part of the original event. All memories have an unreliable narrator, even your own.



Fair enough. Again, we'll probably never know for sure.



Paul Farquhar said:


> Perhaps, but he is the closest to an expert in these things available. And the ushabti must have been placed inside the mummy during the mummification process. Why bother if it was nothing to do with him? I think the point is, Alexander's deeds could be considered superheroic. That's because he was a super, at least in the MCU.



Works for me.


On a completely different note, I've said it already in this thread, but I think this show does a great job illustrating the relationship between a warlock and their patron. Yes, Khonshu is technically a god, but I think you could probably argue that, in D&D terms at least, he's more akin to the god-like beings that grant warlock powers. For one thing, he doesn't appear to need active worshippers in order to exist, unlike most D&D gods.

The reason this is interesting for me is that I've been trying to build a homebrew D&D setting in which the "gods" are really (secretly or openly) greatwyrm dragons. As such, they don't have clerics. Instead, they might produce divine soul sorcerers and celestial pact warlocks as their servants and prophets. I think that a D&D setting loosely inspired by _Moon Knight_'s take on things could be unique and rather fun.

(Apologies if that's not all that coherent. Still trying to hash things out in my head.)


----------



## MarkB (May 5, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Fair enough. Again, we'll probably never know for sure.
> 
> 
> Works for me.
> ...



I've considered gods to be valid warlock patrons since back in 3.5e. To me, it's just about them having different relationships - some serve through fervent belief, but for others it's more of a business arrangement.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (May 5, 2022)

pukunui said:


> For one thing, he doesn't appear to need active worshippers in order to exist, unlike most D&D gods.



It was implied in the last episode that Khonshu is weak because of his lack of worshipers. Ammit has Harrow's cult empowering her.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (May 5, 2022)

MarkB said:


> I've considered gods to be valid warlock patrons since back in 3.5e. To me, it's just about them having different relationships - some serve through fervent belief, but for others it's more of a business arrangement.



_Explorer's Guide to Wildemount _has a table of "Lesser Idols", most of whom are suggested for both clerics and warlocks.


----------



## pukunui (May 5, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> It was implied in the last episode that Khonshu is weak because of his lack of worshipers. Ammit has Harrow's cult empowering her.



I missed that. Thanks.


----------



## RuinousPowers (May 5, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Yeah, we do. We see Marc and Steven's hearts out of balance, the scales unable to judge them - they could go either way, and eventually Marc does achieve balance. His fate wasn't predetermined.
> 
> And the fact that Ammit chooses an imbalanced soul as her avatar is a strong indication that she knows that what she's doing is wrong. A balanced avatar would come to oppose her - she needs a Harrow for what she intends to do.



But Harrow sensed that his scales were in conflict, so there wasn't a false positive reading or anything. Ammit was 100% right. 

Khonshu seems to be doing alright with an imbalanced soul avatar.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (May 5, 2022)

Chris Currie said:


> But Harrow sensed that his scales were in conflict, so there wasn't a false positive reading or anything. Ammit was 100% right.



No, she was wrong, because unbalanced scales can become balanced.


Chris Currie said:


> Khonshu seems to be doing alright with an imbalanced soul avatar.



Not a problem for him, he only judges people by their actions.


----------



## Umbran (May 5, 2022)

Chris Currie said:


> Khonshu's talk about freewill is kinda moot if Ammit can 100% know if someone is going to do evil.




So, what I got from the whole thing is that she is "weighing the heart," like Marc needed to do with Tawaret on the boat.

But we see with Marc that the balance of the heart can change.


----------



## trappedslider (May 5, 2022)

Sorry folks Oscar Isaac Reveals Disappointing Update on Moon Knight Season 2


----------



## DeviousQuail (May 5, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Sorry folks Oscar Isaac Reveals Disappointing Update on Moon Knight Season 2



Things can always change but that's not great news. If the characters were moved to the movies that'd be fine. It would just be weird to pick up Steven and Marc's story in a film considering where we left them at the end of this season.


----------



## Zaukrie (May 5, 2022)

Why were there only two hearts if there are at least three personalities?


----------



## Dire Bare (May 5, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Which doesn't mean she's free to get back together with him. She has a whole new life now, and no doubt it's going to take some time for her to come to terms with it.
> 
> The goldfish was replaced during one of Steven's early blackouts. Having them both there is symbolic of Marc and Steven now coexisting.



Layla makes it clear to Taweret that the arrangement is temporary.

Of course, she seemed to really have fun during that final battle scene, so re-upping her agreement to be Taweret's avatar is likely.


----------



## Dire Bare (May 5, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> Without knowing _how _and _why _the various gods were locked away, this would be a very risky move. Some may be worse than Ammit. Others may want to be locked away and respond poorly to being released ("Why did you awaken me, mortal insect?").



Smashing all of the statues wouldn't be wise . . . . but it would be FUN! For the viewers, at least!


----------



## Dire Bare (May 5, 2022)

BRayne said:


> Well the original Scarlet Scarab is Dr. Abdul Faoul, and Layla's father, who called her "little scarab", was named Dr. Abdallah El-Faouly.



Layla isn't really a brand-new character created for the show, but rather a character heavily modified from the comics to be almost new. But lots of ties to existing characters.


----------



## Zaukrie (May 5, 2022)

I would have smashed them all. As a last resort to stop an evil god. 

For me and my wife, who both know people with mental illness, we didn't like that Marc and Stephen are actually somehow different people. We would have preferred that Marc begin consolidating his personalities. Again, I get that's a preference, and not to say the choice is bad, just not the choice we wanted


----------



## Blue (May 5, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Yeah, we do. We see Marc and Steven's hearts out of balance, the scales unable to judge them - they could go either way, and eventually Marc does achieve balance. His fate wasn't predetermined.
> 
> And the fact that Ammit chooses an imbalanced soul as her avatar is a strong indication that she knows that what she's doing is wrong. A balanced avatar would come to oppose her - she needs a Harrow for what she intends to do.



I agree with everything you just said.

And I think Harrow took her at her best potential, which she did not live up to.

Harrow tested Steven in the museum, and let him go because the scales kept swinging and he was unable to judge.  He was a true believer in what Ammit was proposing.  Further supported that he thought and accepted he should die and Ammit pick a balanced avatar.

It's just that when she came forth, we found out that she didn't live up to the ideals she was espousing.


----------



## Zaukrie (May 5, 2022)

Blue said:


> I agree with everything you just said.
> 
> And I think Harrow took her at her best potential, which she did not live up to.
> 
> ...



You'd think that would lead to a crises of faith for Harrow....


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan (May 5, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> Why were there only two hearts if there are at least three personalities?



Tawaret had to reach into the chest of Steven and Marc to pull out their hearts. Jake wasn't there at that moment, so his heart didn't get added to the scales.


----------



## Umbran (May 5, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> You'd think that would lead to a crises of faith for Harrow....




Humans are extremely resistant to crises of faith.


----------



## Ryujin (May 5, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Sorry folks Oscar Isaac Reveals Disappointing Update on Moon Knight Season 2



My understanding was that this was always a "limited series", like "Hawkeye", and that there would be no additional seasons. Sure, things can change, but I never expected more and can appreciate it for what we've been given


----------



## Morrus (May 5, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Sorry folks Oscar Isaac Reveals Disappointing Update on Moon Knight Season 2



Looks like the same stock answer everybody always gives. Nothing official to announce, I'd do it if the story was good. Boilerplate. I wouldn't read anything into that at all.


----------



## Zaukrie (May 5, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Tawaret had to reach into the chest of Steven and Marc to pull out their hearts. Jake wasn't there at that moment, so his heart didn't get added to the scales.



Would Jake be alive, then, if they aren't really one soul/person? Because I have A LOT of questions otherwise (either way, actually).


----------



## Umbran (May 5, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> Would Jake be alive, then, if they aren't really one soul/person? Because I have A LOT of questions otherwise (either way, actually).




If you are asking for logical consistency around magic, you are unlikely to find it.


----------



## Ryujin (May 5, 2022)

Umbran said:


> If you are asking for logical consistency around magic, you are unlikely to find it.



Especially so god-like magic, that can manipulate the turning of the days.


----------



## Zaukrie (May 5, 2022)

Umbran said:


> If you are asking for logical consistency around magic, you are unlikely to find it.



I'm asking if they are more than one person, or not (which is the part I liked second least in the finale)......because if they aren't, he doesn't have to save him, he's there (as Stephen realized in the previous episode, if Marc is in him, he can do what Marc does.....and yet). If they are one person, well, a lot of that didn't make sense.....

Within the system they have laid out, I'm asking for internal logic (that's very important for magic in fiction, as many writers have told us over and over).


----------



## Umbran (May 5, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> I'm asking if they are more than one person, or not (which is the part I liked second least in the finale)......because if they aren't, he doesn't have to save him, he's there (as Stephen realized in the previous episode, if Marc is in him, he can do what Marc does.....and yet). If they are one person, well, a lot of that didn't make sense.....
> 
> Within the system they have laid out, I'm asking for internal logic (that's very important for magic in fiction, as many writers have told us over and over).




You'd have to define "one person" first.  Their version of dissociative identity disorder raises unanswered questions about what it means to be "one person".  We might say that we are talking about "souls", but what is a soul, then?  

If you want to know if they are one person, and then derive whether or not the presented narrative makes sense, I'd say you are going about this backwards.  The narrative is what it is - and it may imply that our understanding of personhood and/or the underlying metaphysics of that fictional universe which is incomplete.

Ultimately, when faced with magic or spiritual elements, it is best to assume it doesn't make _logical_ sense, because magic isn't about logic.  That's what we have science for.  Magic should make emotional or metaphorical sense, not logical sense.

Consider, for example, the possibility that the whole thing was really imagery brought about by Tawaret to help Marc get his crap together one way or another - and it made satisfying emotional and psychological sense to Marc, so that he could choose what he really wanted overall.


----------



## Ryujin (May 5, 2022)

Umbran said:


> You'd have to define "one person" first.  Their version of dissociative identity disorder raises unanswered questions about what it means to be "one person".  We might say that we are talking about "souls", but what is a soul, then?
> 
> If you want to know if they are one person, and then derive whether or not the presented narrative makes sense, I'd say you are going about this backwards.  The narrative is what it is - and it may imply that our understanding of personhood and/or the underlying metaphysics of that fictional universe which is incomplete.
> 
> ...



I would say, in this particular alternate world, that they're all separate souls all inhabiting the same body. Marc and Steven were judged. Jake was not. Tawaret said that the psychiatric hospital was a construct to help them understand what was happening, but I don't know that the rest was. It wasn't explicitly stated either way. I guess that doesn't explain why she weighed both hearts at the same time but, again, metaphysics not science.


----------



## Dire Bare (May 5, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I would say, in this particular alternate world, that they're all separate souls all inhabiting the same body. Marc and Steven were judged. Jake was not. Tawaret said that the psychiatric hospital was a construct to help them understand what was happening, but I don't know that the rest was. It wasn't explicitly stated either way. I guess that doesn't explain why she weighed both hearts at the same time but, again, metaphysics not science.



I think that both states could be true simultaneously . . . . that Mark, Steven, and Jake are all the same person . . . . and that they are all different people. Perhaps due to the magical influence of Khonshu, Mark evolved from a more realistic multiple personality to each personality becoming more real and separate from the others. But never entirely separate.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (May 5, 2022)

Here is an interesting bit that I ran across last night. Marvel was looking at making Echo/Maya Lopez the love interest of Marc's for this series before they decided she was a better fit for the Hawkeye series.


----------



## pukunui (May 5, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Here is an interesting bit that I ran across last night. Marvel was looking at making Echo/Maya Lopez the love interest of Marc's for this series before they decided she was a better fit for the Hawkeye series.



I'm glad they didn't, because Layla rocks! I hope she gets her own spin-off show as Egypt's first superhero!


----------



## Rabulias (May 5, 2022)

I saw a video claiming that a boat at the bottom of Gus's fishtank looks like Taweret's ship.


----------



## Morrus (May 5, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> I saw a video claiming that a boat at the bottom of Gus's fishtank looks like Taweret's ship.



Do you need a video to claim that? You can just look at it yourself! Does it?


----------



## pukunui (May 5, 2022)

Morrus said:


> Do you need a video to claim that? You can just look at it yourself! Does it?



I just did, and yep - confirmed (@Rabulias). There's a boat that looks like Taweret's next to a building that is vaguely the same shape as Osiris' doorway out of the Duat. This is in the close-up view of the fishtank at the end of episode 6.

EDIT: Both the fish and the building are there in the very first episode as well. Along with Nefertiti's head, a golden pyramid, and a sphinx.

EDIT 2: Does anyone know how to bypass Disney+'s blocking of screenshots? (I'd snap a pic of my monitor with my phone but there's too much glare at the moment.)


----------



## Rabulias (May 5, 2022)

Morrus said:


> Do you need a video to claim that? You can just look at it yourself! Does it?



In the video it is too small for me to tell and I have not been able to go back and rewatch the episodes  yet. Just too eager to share with the crowd here to wait for confirmation.


----------



## Thomas Shey (May 6, 2022)

Chris Currie said:


> So, Ammit was cool, and surprisingly honest about everything. Didn't seem to be any underhanded interpretations. That was...unexpected. Khonshu's talk about freewill is kinda moot if Ammit can 100% know if someone is going to do evil. I figured there would be a "people can change their fate" or "see, you were wrong" moment, and there wasn't.




Well, I have to note we only have_ Ammit's_ word that people can't change.  The fact she thinks so doesn't make it true.


----------



## Thomas Shey (May 6, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> But can she, really? And what is the criteria for being worthy, in Ammit's eyes? Is it based on 4000 year old Egyptian theology? I think that there would be an awful lot of people, these days, who would fall through the cracks on that.




There were probably a lot of people who fell through it even _then_.  The judges of the dead in Egyptian myth were, to be charitable, mighty picky.


----------



## Thomas Shey (May 6, 2022)

Chris Currie said:


> That's the kind of stuff I was waiting for, but instead we get "we know they are going to commit the evil, but we have to wait until they do it to punish them". We never hear that Ammit's judgment is wrong, only that it's prophylactic instead of retribution.




But that's _Konshu's_ take on it; he may not be any more reliable than she is.

Its not like arrogance isn't kind of on-brand for mythological gods.


----------



## Thomas Shey (May 6, 2022)

Dire Bare said:


> Layla makes it clear to Taweret that the arrangement is temporary.
> 
> Of course, she seemed to really have fun during that final battle scene, so re-upping her agreement to be Taweret's avatar is likely.



 That was my speculation.


----------



## Thomas Shey (May 6, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> My understanding was that this was always a "limited series", like "Hawkeye", and that there would be no additional seasons. Sure, things can change, but I never expected more and can appreciate it for what we've been given




Though leaving that kicker at the end implies they plan to do _something_ more with the character, if not in his own series.


----------



## Ryujin (May 6, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> Though leaving that kicker at the end implies they plan to do _something_ more with the character, if not in his own series.



I'm thinking that _something_ would be called "Phase 4."



Thomas Shey said:


> There were probably a lot of people who fell through it even _then_.  The judges of the dead in Egyptian myth were, to be charitable, mighty picky.



Sins like "wearing the colours of Pharaoh" come to mind. Maybe picking up your food with the wrong hand. Things that might have been very bad back then, that we'd have no real way of knowing today.


----------



## pukunui (May 6, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I'm thinking that _something_ would be called "Phase 4."



I feel like we've mostly been watching Phase 3.5. The new Dr Strange movie may be the first of the actual Phase 4. I haven't seen it yet, so not really sure, but it feels like mostly it's either been dealing with fallout from Phase 3 and setting up the next wave of superheroes to replace those who've died/retired and who will make up the real Phase 4.

Unless Phase 4 is meant to be a transitional one and all the new superheroes will be part of a Phase 5 or something.


----------



## RuinousPowers (May 6, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> No, she was wrong, because unbalanced scales can become balanced.
> 
> Not a problem for him, he only judges people






Thomas Shey said:


> Well, I have to note we only have_ Ammit's_ word that people can't change.  The fact she thinks so doesn't make it true.



It's never disputed by anyone. The ONLY objection Khonshu raises is that the crime has to be committed BEFORE punishment. As far as the show is concerned Ammit is actually offering a world free from evil people.


----------



## Stalker0 (May 6, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> Though leaving that kicker at the end implies they plan to do _something_ more with the character, if not in his own series.



My guess is they will something akin to Wandavision and Dr Strange 2. The tv show opens up some threads that can be used and resolved in a later movie.

I think what would be really interesting is to show moon knight in the movie.... as a villain! Its the Jake persona taken hold, and only later on do we get Marc/Steven back for complications.


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## Maxperson (May 6, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Really good episode, I too was delightedly surprised that Ammit was exactly as she seemed, no plot twist, no hidden scheme. Just straight up "this is what I believe, and this is what I'm going to do". I also really liked Harrow at the end, when she said he was imbalanced, he just straight up said "alright I'm ready to die". He was a true believer, and as evil as you might think he was, he was no hypocrite.



She also straight up admitted to being evil.  She told him that he was balanced right now and the imbalance(evil) comes from serving her as her avatar.


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## Maxperson (May 6, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> Looking back at it, Taweret _only _had Marc's and Steven's hearts and tried to balance them. Jake (and presumably his heart) was still locked away in the sarcophagus.



I don't think so.  I think the theory put forth earlier in the thread that Jake is a subpersonality of Steven is correct.  They could not balance the heart while Steven and Marc went through their history, but as soon as Steven fell into the sand leaving Marc behind, the heart balanced.  If it was imbalanced due to Jake being locked away, Marc wouldn't have balanced after Steven fell.


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## Thomas Shey (May 6, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> My guess is they will something akin to Wandavision and Dr Strange 2. The tv show opens up some threads that can be used and resolved in a later movie.
> 
> I think what would be really interesting is to show moon knight in the movie.... as a villain! Its the Jake persona taken hold, and only later on do we get Marc/Steven back for complications.




I'm still reading the tea leaves and thinking something with a version of the Midnight Sons might be coming along, by and by.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (May 6, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Unless Phase 4 is meant to be a transitional one and all the new superheroes will be part of a Phase 5 or something.




Well. it did take all the Phase 1 and 2 movies to build up to Phase 3 and defeating Thanos twice. For Phase 4, everything after Far From Home is part of it, both TV and movies. But now that the MCU has been built, they probably only need one build-up Phase.


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## pukunui (May 6, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Well. it did take all the Phase 1 and 2 movies to build up to Phase 3 and defeating Thanos twice. For Phase 4, everything after Far From Home is part of it, both TV and movies. But now that the MCU has been built, they probably only need one build-up Phase.



It just feels like they're still building up to something, so yeah, Phase 4 must be a build up to Phase 5, which will feature all the major multiverse and the fight to stop Kang.


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## Blue (May 6, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Especially so god-like magic, that can manipulate the turning of the days.



But that was entirely consistent for a god of _the Night Sky_.  They don't have "generic" god-like magic that allows them to do anything, they just have masterful control over their portfolio.  And doing so in an overt way will alert the other gods.


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## Blue (May 6, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I feel like we've mostly been watching Phase 3.5. The new Dr Strange movie may be the first of the actual Phase 4. I haven't seen it yet, so not really sure, but it feels like mostly it's either been dealing with fallout from Phase 3 and setting up the next wave of superheroes to replace those who've died/retired and who will make up the real Phase 4.
> 
> Unless Phase 4 is meant to be a transitional one and all the new superheroes will be part of a Phase 5 or something.



Marvel can introduce and use heroes across multiple phases.  See Iron Man, from Phase I through III.  Or The Hulk, who was introduced (with Ed Norton) in Phase I and is still going.

So far Phase 4 has introduced The Eternals and Shang-Chi as well as having characters from previous Phases, especially when you consider that the Marvel shows are considered canon.


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## Ryujin (May 6, 2022)

Blue said:


> But that was entirely consistent for a god of _the Night Sky_.  They don't have "generic" god-like magic that allows them to do anything, they just have masterful control over their portfolio.  And doing so in an overt way will alert the other gods.



Not sure what you're arguing here.


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## Mezuka (May 6, 2022)

Stay tuned for season two while the two outed personalities try to understand and merge with the third... show should have been called Russian Doll... wait, there is one already, and it's very good, check it out. I'll watch RD season two instead.


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## Haiku Elvis (May 6, 2022)

I can't see them not doing something with the character with that ending. 
If the series had been recieved poorly that could have cut the end credit scene. 
Of course real life issues can get in the way but setting up Jake means they have plans for Moon knight.


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## Tonguez (May 7, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Sorry folks Oscar Isaac Reveals Disappointing Update on Moon Knight Season 2




What I’ve come to expect is that Marvel liesbends the truth.
We have the case of WandaVision having no sequel but her being secondary lead in a movie

For this I wouldnt be suprised if Moonknight shows up as a secondary in another show (Werewolf-by-night and Blade are coming).

Though personally I’d love for Marvel to call dibs on Wonder Woman and give us a Scarlet Scarab show (featuring Marc Spector)


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## Tonguez (May 7, 2022)

Maxperson said:


> I don't think so.  I think the theory put forth earlier in the thread that Jake is a subpersonality of Steven is correct.  They could not balance the heart while Steven and Marc went through their history, but as soon as Steven fell into the sand leaving Marc behind, the heart balanced.  If it was imbalanced due to Jake being locked away, Marc wouldn't have balanced after Steven fell.



I thought it more Steven and Marc together are complete as the Light side of the Moon - perfectly balanced against Jakes Darkside.  Marc and Steven  couldnt balance as seperate beings but once Steven acted to save Marc they were reconciled and became ‘complete’ on a cosmic scale


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## Omand (May 7, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> I thought it more Steven and Marc together are complete as the Light side of the Moon - perfectly balanced against Jakes Darkside.  Marc and Steven  couldnt balance as seperate beings but once Steven acted to save Marc they were reconciled and became ‘complete’ on a cosmic scale



I can see that.  Likely a better theory than my original sub-personality.

Cheers


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## Enevhar Aldarion (May 7, 2022)

Identity is official!


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## WayneLigon (May 7, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> There were probably a lot of people who fell through it even _then_.  The judges of the dead in Egyptian myth were, to be charitable, mighty picky.


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## Janx (May 9, 2022)

I liked the whole thing.  They left us some nuggets for more MK.


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## Umbran (May 10, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> I thought it more Steven and Marc together are complete as the Light side of the Moon - perfectly balanced against Jakes Darkside.  Marc and Steven  couldnt balance as seperate beings but once Steven acted to save Marc they were reconciled and became ‘complete’ on a cosmic scale




That's as good a way to look at it as any.

But, it is perhaps important to note that the writers probably _don't_ have, like, a set of mechanics they are following.  They wrote a story, and "how does all this stuff actually work behind the story" was probably not a priority.  We are retroactively interpreting a metaphysic to the observed narrative.


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## Ryujin (May 10, 2022)

Umbran said:


> That's as good a way to look at it as any.
> 
> But, it is perhaps important to note that the writers probably _don't_ have, like, a set of mechanics they are following.  They wrote a story, and "how does all this stuff actually work behind the story" was probably not a priority.  We are retroactively interpreting a metaphysic to the observed narrative.



When they were weighing the two hearts I kept thinking, "OK, so the mercenary, Marc, is the ambiguous character that is pulling the scales down but the good character, Steven, is in balance." Then Steven goes over the side and Marc balances, so Steven was the unbalancing force? Didn't make any sense to me, but I went with it.


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## wicked cool (May 10, 2022)

the bloody feet part is the part that really throws this for me. If they are in purgatory on their way to afterlife then why the bloody feet? i hope we get a better explanation


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## Erekose (May 10, 2022)

It’s not uncommon in mythology for the moon to be represented typically as three goddesses - here we could have the three personalities matching the maiden (Steven), mother (Marc), and crone (Jake).


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## Umbran (May 10, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> When they were weighing the two hearts I kept thinking, "OK, so the mercenary, Marc, is the ambiguous character that is pulling the scales down but the good character, Steven, is in balance." Then Steven goes over the side and Marc balances, so Steven was the unbalancing force? Didn't make any sense to me, but I went with it.




I think he balances at the moment not because Steven has been removed, but because it was in that moment when Steven and Marc come to terms with each other.  That is the moment when they recognize each other's right to exist, and value as a person, rather than as an inconvenience or problem to themselves.


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## Umbran (May 10, 2022)

wicked cool said:


> the bloody feet part is the part that really throws this for me. If they are in purgatory on their way to afterlife then why the bloody feet? i hope we get a better explanation




First off, it isn't "Purgatory".   That's a Christian concept, and does not apply to a Jewish man bound to an Egyptian god.  

It would also help to not think of the Duat as a place dominated by its own objective existence.  The Duat is bound up with the person's psychological and/or spiritual state (if there is a difference between those things).  From this point of view, much of what is there is metaphor or _symbolic_ in nature.  The bloody feet are the symbolic representation that the Psychiatrist's office _isn't reality_, and that the psychiatrist has, in that space, more than just the face, but indeed the role of Harrow.  The psychiatrist is there to prevent Marc from interfering, and possibly outright destroy Marc.

It is ambiguous as to whether the psychiatrist was a creation of Marc's mind, or if Harrow actually had a spiritual presence there - the difference may be academic.  The symbolism, however, is the same either way.


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## wicked cool (May 10, 2022)

you are correct. its not purgatory per se but its a transition area of some sort (isnt Duat a journey/quest to the afterlife). It just feels like Harrow was there based on his shock and the orderly's reactions. Its was done through 2 episodes which makes it hard to believe it was  unintentional


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## Ryujin (May 10, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I think he balances at the moment not because Steven has been removed, but because it was in that moment when Steven and Marc come to terms with each other.  That is the moment when they recognize each other's right to exist, and value as a person, rather than as an inconvenience or problem to themselves.



While that's certainly plausible, and most likely the correct interpretation, it sure didn't strike me that way when it happened. "OK, you threw away the nice guy and _NOW_ you're fine?"


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## Dire Bare (May 10, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I think he balances at the moment not because Steven has been removed, but because it was in that moment when Steven and Marc come to terms with each other.  That is the moment when they recognize each other's right to exist, and value as a person, rather than as an inconvenience or problem to themselves.



STEVEN: _"You've got this Mark! Wait, if he's got this, I got this!"_


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## MoonSong (May 10, 2022)

Dire Bare said:


> STEVEN: _"You've got this Mark! Wait, if he's got this, I got this!"_



You're my only real superpower.... T-T


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## pukunui (May 11, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> While that's certainly plausible, and most likely the correct interpretation, it sure didn't strike me that way when it happened. "OK, you threw away the nice guy and _NOW_ you're fine?"



It wasn't the act of "throwing away" Steven that balanced Marc's heart. It was his realization that he couldn't live without him that balanced it.


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## Ryujin (May 11, 2022)

pukunui said:


> It wasn't the act of "throwing away" Steven that balanced Marc's heart. It was his realization that he couldn't live without him that balanced it.



Umbran got there first and I was responding to that, with how the event struck me


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## Enevhar Aldarion (May 19, 2022)

Got my little Disney D23 newsletter email today and it had an article of many of the easter eggs for the series and had some that I definitely did not catch when I watched the show. For instance, there are four QR Codes for free comic book issues, but I only remember seeing one or two of them.









						Hidden Moon Knight Easter Eggs That Will Have Fans Over the Moon - D23
					

We’ve rounded up some of our favorite Easter eggs and details hidden in Moon Knight that every fan should spot.




					d23.com


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## Enevhar Aldarion (May 20, 2022)




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## Anklesgone55 (May 28, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> If Ammit does have foresight instead of predestination, we don't have a conflict....if foresight can be wrong.
> 
> Really good episode, I too was delightedly surprised that Ammit was exactly as she seemed, no plot twist, no hidden scheme. Just straight up "this is what I believe, and this is what I'm going to do". I also really liked Harrow at the end, when she said he was imbalanced, he just straight up said "alright I'm ready to die". He was a true believer, and as evil as you might think he was, he was no hypocrite.
> 
> Alright, Layla go beat up falcon and take his stuff, your my new favorite!



I am kind of thinking that Ammit sees the many different paths that can be chosen by a single person and kills that person- if they have a bad path- so that they can't choose the path. Hence, free will and foresight.


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## Anklesgone55 (May 28, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> If Ammit does have foresight instead of predestination, we don't have a conflict....if foresight can be wrong.
> 
> Really good episode, I too was delightedly surprised that Ammit was exactly as she seemed, no plot twist, no hidden scheme. Just straight up "this is what I believe, and this is what I'm going to do". I also really liked Harrow at the end, when she said he was imbalanced, he just straight up said "alright I'm ready to die". He was a true believer, and as evil as you might think he was, he was no hypocrite.
> 
> Alright, Layla go beat up falcon and take his stuff, your my new favorite!



I am kind of thinking that Ammit sees the many different paths that can be chosen by a single person and kills that person- if they have a bad path- so that they can't choose the path. Hence, free will and foresight.


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