# << PLANESCAPE >> How do you defeat the Lady of Pain?



## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

Okay from what I've heard the Lady of Pain is supposed to be pretty much Omnipotent.  No god, artifact, or entity of any kind can hurt her much less destroy her.  I refuse to believe that.  There has got to be a way.  Please submit your ideas and hopefully some of the Planescape Sages will offer their own guidance.


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## Piratecat (Feb 12, 2004)

You can't, unless the DM suddenly decides that you can. She's a plot device.


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## EricNoah (Feb 12, 2004)

How can you defeat a mountain?  How can you battle a ray of moonlight?  How can you destroy the sky?  She is bigger than a god, bigger than a universe.  Run, you fool, run -- she's right behind you!


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## Li Shenron (Feb 12, 2004)

First of all... why would you want to do that?


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

Oh come on... there has got to be a way.  I've heard that if her shadow falls across someone she can flay them alive.  What if there is no shadow, can she still flay someone?


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## Wrath of the Swarm (Feb 12, 2004)

The Lady refuses to be worshipped, and will horribly punish anyone who does so.  Why is this?  Because being worshipped would grant her power, as it does to the Gods, and the Gods accept her presence in Sigil only because it's designated as neutral territory.  If divine power is channeled to her, she loses the neutrality necessary to remain in Sigil.

Therefore, find worlds beyond her reach, and establish cults in her name.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

Li Shenron said:
			
		

> First of all... why would you want to do that?




Actually, I don't really care.  I don't use Planescape in my campaigns.  I'm just tired of people running around the board touting the Lady as the end all, be all being in the game with a "My Dad can beat up your Dad" mentality.  There is another discussion going on about Demons & Devils forming an alliance and taking over the reality.  One of the sticking points is how they would take over Sigil.  There are a bunch of people coming up with reasons why they couldn't do it but not many coming up with ways they could.  That is what this discussion is for, finding ways the fiends could overrun Sigil.


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## Arnwyn (Feb 12, 2004)

There is no way (and no hints) in any of the PS published products.

You can make up any method you want for the Lady of Pain to be defeated... but if you're looking for some sort of "official" material backing you up - I'm going to hazard a guess and say that you'll be disappointed.


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## Kestrel (Feb 12, 2004)

I sense one of those mazes opening for someone.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

Wrath of the Swarm said:
			
		

> The Lady refuses to be worshipped, and will horribly punish anyone who does so.  Why is this?  Because being worshipped would grant her power, as it does to the Gods, and the Gods accept her presence in Sigil only because it's designated as neutral territory.  If divine power is channeled to her, she loses the neutrality necessary to remain in Sigil.
> 
> Therefore, find worlds beyond her reach, and establish cults in her name.




Good call!  If the Fiends are trying to invade sigil they could torture all the petitioners to begin worshiping her as a god.  She'd have to go to the Abyss or to the Nine Hells to stop them and I don't see that happening.  Now we just need a rebuttal.


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## EricNoah (Feb 12, 2004)

In a world where "rule of three" reigns supreme, the Lady's rule is even higher: the "rule of zero."  Whatever she wants, she gets.  Period!


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## diaglo (Feb 12, 2004)

wait for the new Forgettable Realms book due out. i'm sure it will offer you some clues.

there was a call a year or two ago for an author on the WotC board and several threads were started here also.


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## Robbert Raets (Feb 12, 2004)

'This is King Six, requesting fire mission, over.'


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## Rel (Feb 12, 2004)

I heard she can be crushed under the foot of a humble ant.



But don't quote me on that.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> In a world where "rule of three" reigns supreme, the Lady's rule is even higher: the "rule of zero."  Whatever she wants, she gets.  Period!




At the risk of having to start a new discussion of the Chicken & Egg situation, who created the Lady?  If nobody created the Lady then is the Lady the Creator?


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## EricNoah (Feb 12, 2004)

Here's a better question: 

How can a D&D character destroy something that doesn't have stats??  Answer me THAT my friend!!


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## Zappo (Feb 12, 2004)

From a metagame PoV, by Planescape canon, trying to defeat the Lady is nonsense. Before being an actual entity, even before being a plot device (I actually don't like using her as such), she is the symbol of the setting. By Planescape canon, killing the lady is nonsensical because it would pretty much mean that you are no longer playing Planescape.

 In-game, by Planescape canon, defeating the Lady is impossible; the "shadow" thing is only a display, the real effect being that she can kill anything within Sigil including a greater deity, when she wants, with no possible way to resist, without even needing to be present. She also has full and selective control on all ways in and out of the city. This is all well-documented. Basically, you can't affect her from outside Sigil, you can't enter Sigil unless she lets you, and once there you can be killed or mazed the moment you try something. You can't even communicate with her to try some trick. As if that wasn't enough, there is evidence that her powers may extend outside the city as well.

 Basically, if you want to engineer a campaign where the Lady is killed, ousted, or otherwise defeated, you have to step out of Planescape canon (which is fine, but maybe not what you were looking for).


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## SamuraiY (Feb 12, 2004)

summon the overgod (dont remember who that is in planescape). He's probably the only thing that could beat her. course you'd have to convince him to, and I have no clue why he would...


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Here's a better question:
> 
> How can a D&D character destroy something that doesn't have stats??  Answer me THAT my friend!!




With a weapon that doesn't list damage?

Hmmmm....  THE SDF-1!!!!!  Damage listed is that it destroys absolutely EVERYTHING in it's path of fire which is 1 mile wide and 1,000,000,000 miles long.

Sorry, I had to go there.  The D&D gods don't have stats either.  Only their Avatars do.


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## Li Shenron (Feb 12, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> Actually, I don't really care.  I don't use Planescape in my campaigns.  I'm just tired of people running around the board touting the Lady as the end all, be all being in the game with a "My Dad can beat up your Dad" mentality.  There is another discussion going on about Demons & Devils forming an alliance and taking over the reality.  One of the sticking points is how they would take over Sigil.  There are a bunch of people coming up with reasons why they couldn't do it but not many coming up with ways they could.  That is what this discussion is for, finding ways the fiends could overrun Sigil.




Mah, I don't know the details of Planescape, but if you want to play by the setting and the setting says you can't destroy her, then you can't destroy her.

If you are the DM and you want her to be destroyable, you can come up with whatever you consider appropriate. Of course if you ask how "by the rules" of Planescape to do that, every PS adept will simply reply that "by the rules" there is no way...   

I am not sure, but it looks to me that you are trying to find a hole in a setting you perhaps don't like...


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## Kestrel (Feb 12, 2004)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Here's a better question:
> 
> How can a D&D character destroy something that doesn't have stats??  Answer me THAT my friend!!




By beating the DM into submission?


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## Henry (Feb 12, 2004)

The Lady of Pain can be defeated by plying your DM with copious quantities of his or her favorite gift, food or malt beverage, complimenting them on their appearance, and suggesting to them that more is forthcoming if the nasty problem of the " in blades" (as one player I used to know called her) went away. 


Or, to put it another way...

You don't tug on Superman's cape,
You don't spit into the wind,
You don't pull the mask off the ol' Lone Ranger...


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

Li Shenron said:
			
		

> I am not sure, but it looks to me that you are trying to find a hole in a setting you perhaps don't like...




Actually I like the idea of an Armageddon in the Planes and would like to run it.  I just want a "By the Book" answer so that my Rules Lawyers will be satisfied if I spring it on them (don't laugh... every group has at least one or two).


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> The Lady of Pain can be defeated by plying your DM with copious quantities of his or her favorite gift, food or malt beverage, complimenting them on their appearance, and suggesting to them that more is forthcoming if the nasty problem of the " in blades" (as one player I used to know called her) went away.




Now you are talking!!!!  Still wouldn't help silence the Rules Lawyers.


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## Piratecat (Feb 12, 2004)

I would use ninjas. I hear that they have real ultimate power.


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## Henry (Feb 12, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> Now you are talking!!!!  Still wouldn't help silence the Rules Lawyers.





See above for my second answer. If any rules lawyers start asking, start quoting the old Jim Croce song, line by line, until they get the point.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I would use ninjas. I hear that they have real ultimate power.




Yeah, the purpose of a ninja is to flip out and kill people!

Facts:
1) Ninjas are Mammals
2) Ninjas fight all the time
3) The purpose of a Ninja is to flip out and kill people

Ninjas kill people all the time and don't even think twice about it.

Piratecat, I thought that Ninjas were the natural enemies of Pirates?


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## Zappo (Feb 12, 2004)

Officially, she is undefeatable, you'd better start whacking your rules lawyer with a big stick and tell him that your setting doesn't need to be 100% official. By the book, we don't even know what the Lady's defensive capabilities are, simply because not even gods can survive long enough to actually strike... but I understand your hatred of "my Dad can beat up your Dad" arguments, I loathe them all the same. Luckily, the Lady doesn't actually beat up anyone, she only acts in self-defense and defense of the city. Spectacular actions such as the one against Aoskar are within her power, but they don't actually happen, the destruction of Aoskar is the only instance I know of the Lady directly killing a god.







			
				SamuraiY said:
			
		

> summon the overgod (dont remember who that is in planescape). He's probably the only thing that could beat her. course you'd have to convince him to, and I have no clue why he would...



No overgod in Planescape (despite what certain factions claim).


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## Arnwyn (Feb 12, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> I just want a "By the Book" answer so that my Rules Lawyers will be satisfied if I spring it on them (don't laugh... every group has at least one or two).



Then, sadly, you are out of luck.


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## simmo (Feb 12, 2004)

Dropping a cottage on The Lady using a tornado always works for me. Another method is to get a big black marker pen and erase her name from every RPG product that you own.

I'm currently working on killing off the numbers: 103, 571 and -1003.4 and the letter D. Using a stat-less item didn't work, but I'll probably resort to using a 'spell without a description'


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

This isn't really related to this discussion but I need to ask.  I've never really gotten into Planescape but the idea of a Planar Armageddon has really captured my imagination and I'd like to run with it.  It seems like the majority of people here love the Planescape setting.  Why?  What about it do you like so much?


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## EricNoah (Feb 12, 2004)

Kestrel said:
			
		

> By beating the DM into submission?




Ugh, typical metagamer!


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## Li Shenron (Feb 12, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> Actually I like the idea of an Armageddon in the Planes and would like to run it.  I just want a "By the Book" answer so that my Rules Lawyers will be satisfied if I spring it on them (don't laugh... every group has at least one or two).




In this case, it's not a problem for you, it's the rules lawyers' problem   

No Rules Lawyer can pretend the DM to put aside his own setting choices. If they pretend that the books are over you even in campaign/story issues, tell them from the start that you are playing a Planescape++ campaign instead.


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## Ottergame (Feb 12, 2004)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> In a world where "rule of three" reigns supreme, the Lady's rule is even higher: the "rule of zero."  Whatever she wants, she gets.  Period!




The Lady of Pain is like a spoiled brat DM, she'll Rule 0 everything to get her way.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

Li Shenron said:
			
		

> In this case, it's not a problem for you, it's the rules lawyers' problem.




I know.  Even if I tell them that it is my game it won't make them enjoy the game any more if they are all ate up that I've deviated from the published setting.  In the end gaming should be enjoyable and nobody should go home upset.  I run the game to entertain my players.


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## SamuraiY (Feb 12, 2004)

Zappo said:
			
		

> No overgod in Planescape (despite what certain factions claim).




Oh. Well I guess that you're screwed then. Or whoever you where going to have kill her is.


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## Zappo (Feb 12, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> This isn't really related to this discussion but I need to ask. I've never really gotten into Planescape but the idea of a Planar Armageddon has really captured my imagination and I'd like to run with it. It seems like the majority of people here love the Planescape setting. Why? What about it do you like so much?



The fact that it's _not_ about who beats whom.


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 12, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> You can't, unless the DM suddenly decides that you can. She's a plot device.




And this is the end all of the conversation. Unlike how WoTC statted out gods for various editions, they wisely never did that for the Lady. She is a Plot Device with no built in defeat unless the GM of that campaign reveals one.


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## simmo (Feb 12, 2004)

If you REALLY want to get rid of The Lady, then have the PCs discover that "she" is in fact three ratatosks sitting on each other shoulders inside a dress. One has a mask of flaying, the other a ring of flying & invisibility and the third has a wand of mazing   

Once news gets out the deities, fiends etc will all rush into the Cage and you can go through the Planar Armageddon plot line. However, what is the life-expectancy of PCs in such a multiverse?


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## Flyspeck23 (Feb 12, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> The D&D gods don't have stats either. Only their Avatars do.



So how do you explain the deity stats in _Deities and Demigods_? 

But: no _Lady of Pain_ in that book. Although if WotC would redo _Planescape_, I'd bet some designer would give her stats


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## Carnifex (Feb 12, 2004)

If you don't like the idea of the Lady being effectively omnipotent in Sigil, consider this - there are many theories that she *is* Sigil.  These put forwards the idea that she is an effective manifestation of the city's will. SHe's not some ominpotent god, basically a big human with more power - she is completely and utterly _inhuman_ and alien, in a way that the planar beings, norn of belief, cannot hope to be. She is a force of nature. She is a plot device. She is not really an NPC, but more of s symbol.

To destroy her, you need to destroy Sigil.

Also, the idea of using worship to kick her out of Sigil (working on the same rules as dictate deities cannot exist in the city) does not necessarily work. Because... SPOILERS BELOW FOR FACTION WAR




*
*
*
*
*



...IIRC, Faction War states that Factol Hashkar is a petitioner of the Lady (or possibly the city, or both), I can't remember the exact details though> So, despite her seeming dislike of those who would worship her, the Factol's petitioner status would indicate that he does worship her. This isn't actually very well explained in Faction War, not a product I'm fond of anyway, but it does have potentially interesting implications for attempts to oust the Lady through the power of prayer.


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## eris404 (Feb 12, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> Okay from what I've heard the Lady of Pain is supposed to be pretty much Omnipotent.  No god, artifact, or entity of any kind can hurt her much less destroy her.  I refuse to believe that.  There has got to be a way.  Please submit your ideas and hopefully some of the Planescape Sages will offer their own guidance.




How 'bout this: she is a myth, was always a myth and doesn't really exist.


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## WizarDru (Feb 12, 2004)

Carnifex said:
			
		

> not necessarily work. Because... SPOILERS BELOW FOR FACTION WAR



The [*SPOILER*] Tag is great for this, btw, just remove the *s from my example. [*/SPOLIER*]



Spoiler



She's a man, baby!


 
Seriously, I'd hate to have such an adversarial relationship with my players that they'd tell me that I couldn't use the Lady in whatever way I specifically chose.  If I said the Lady was really just a cosmic Cheeto who could only be defeated by the being able to consume 50 ding-dongs and 50 twinkies on the second Tuesday of March, then that's what it is, AFAIC.  Especially since the different supplements may not always agree, anyhow.  And since this sounds like it'd be a background story anyways, what's the problem?  "_Oh, Sigil?  It was destroyed when Grazzt found a way to kill the Lady.  You gonna eat that?_"


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## Toras (Feb 12, 2004)

Why do I like Planescape? Because it provides the ultimate big pond for adventurers. Its were those who grown to strong on the prime go to find a challenge and do something big.  You can meet with your deity, talk to angelic beings, and fight fiends.  Combine this with rich history, and an even more well developed hub, namely Sigil.

That aside, I think you are missing the point with this. The Lady exists in such an omnipotent and unassailable state for a very specific reason, only a being like this could make Sigil work. You need this unbreakable and nuetral regent in order to create a nuetral city free from Fiendish Lords, Celestial Paragons, or God of many stripes.  Sigil exists as a port of call and nexus that those forces and others would be fighting a pitch war for if she wasn't there.

With that in mind, there could never be a way to destroy her simple because someone would have done it already.  This however is Canon, and we cannot stop you from making her a Wizardress on an S&M kick, or anything equally as absurd.   

However if I might throw in a few more of my "cents", you are looking at this from the wrong perspective. She is inherently nuetral, much like a force of nature, and as such can be used to your advantage.
For example
-Many speculate that Sigil exists as the Lady's Cage, placed upon her by the Powers to keep her out of the Multiverse proper.  If the fiends wanted Sigil, you could have them complete an almost forgotten, (or adventures complete) prophecy that would open her cage and free her.  Thus setting something with vasts amount of payback lose upon the powers, (something fiends would enjoy)
-Perhaps the Lady is actually a manifestation of the Multiverse itself, and as fiends gradually conqueror more and more of it, you find her becoming more fiend like, and more tainted.
-Perhaps she is the Romani creator/progiditor, thus if her children were to be slain in vast numbers, she would begin weaking. 
-Perhaps she is a representation of the Spire/center of the universe.  Suppose the fiends launch a pitched war against the Romani and win, they begin to savage the tower with newly developed "technology", and begin to threaten her very being.

The Point is, you are looking at it the Wrong way.  You are seeing everything as a physical assault or destroy her directly.  Somethings just can't be accomplished that way. 

First you actually have to decide what the lady is, (no answer in Canon), and then your explaination of how you are going about it will make sense to your rules lawyer. Keep in mind that Planewalker is the place for 3e planescape, so you should probably visit there first.


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## herald (Feb 12, 2004)

I happen to know that she is alergic to asprin. She totally afraid of it. 

I say that you drop a metric ton of it on her. 

That would do it.

Or you could get Rose Estes to write about her.


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## Trickstergod (Feb 12, 2004)

Canon-wise? You're out of luck. 

Theory-wise? Well, I don't think that's too off-base. Even a mountain can be ground to dust or swallowed up, with enough time. The point is, though, it's not exactly feasible for an individual or, say, an adventuring party, to do. 

First you have to define the Lady to some degree, in a way that makes sense with what's already established; i.e., that she's nigh-on omnipotent within Sigil. 

As has already been mentioned, you could view her as a manifestation of Sigil itself. In which case, you want to kill the Lady, you have to destroy the city. As most of the folk who've attacked Sigil want it for their own, this essentially means that she's invulnerable. The necessary resources to destroy Sigil, which would be vast, make it an infeasible move to do due to the negligable benefit one would get from destroying the city. 

Personally, I'm not much keen on the idea of overgods. However, one theory of my own is that the Lady of Pain is, quite possibly, not one figure, but many. She represents a number of powerful deities who keep Sigil neutral. This is why it's effectively impossible to defeat her or take out the city; she's probably, for all intents and purposes in this example, the will of an entire pantheon and all its divine servants (though those servants likely don't know that they're actively working to keep Sigil safe - only the deities involved would). She can maze an army of fiends or flay Aoskar because, quite simply, the concerted effort of multiple gods isn't exactly easy to face off against. 

Then, and this is possibly the most Planescape-esque explanation for it, you cap off the Lady of Pain with belief. You tie her down with worshippers, thus defining her, bit by bit. You begin espousing the idea that the Lady of Pain isn't the end all, be all of power, preaching that she, too, is as mortal as anything else in the universe. You start preventing certain types of traffic from getting into Sigil - say, stymie the arrival of outsiders from Baator, for example (not entirely impossible if you were, say, Asmodeus - but he likely wouldn't do that, as it would put him at a severe disadvantage, at least initially, even if the idea eventually worked out, which it might not). Change the fundamental nature of of Sigil or the Lady of Pain, in one way or another, and you've opened her up to destruction. 

All of these are somewhat feasible, and show why she's never been seriously challenged. The effort it would take to destroy Sigil would likely destroy whomever made the attempt in the process. A unified pantheon (perhaps not in the strictest sense of Norse or Egyptian, for example, but a collection all the same) of deities are certainly going to be able to do some truly fantastic things. Trying to change the beliefs one has about the Lady of Pain or Sigil on the scale necessary would be a massive endeavor, and the sort of individuals who could swing Sigil away from neutrality by cutting out a certain type of traffic (archons, modrons, whatever) wouldn't want to because of the disadvantage it would put them at. 

They're all fairly god-like undertakings, that probably aren't going to be done by just hacking and hewing. 

I for one don't think the Lady of Pain should be any more invulnerable than a deity, and everyone has their sprig of mistletoe or Achilles Heel to bring them low, so giving some way to destroy her or Sigil isn't too out of line, but it should be in some way that's near impossible to accomplish, that even an army of fiends and a god or two wouldn't likely succeed at.


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## Rel (Feb 12, 2004)

Toras said:
			
		

> The Lady exists in such an omnipotent and *unassable* state for a very specific reason, only a being like this could make Sigil work.




What a great word!      I'm totally stealing this for use in my games, Toras.

Next time the PC's meet a BBEG and say, "We're about to kick your ass!", the BBEG will respond, "Sorry, I'm completely unassable."

I smell epic feat!


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## Ferret (Feb 12, 2004)

Lets look at with with logic:

-You cannot kill her in a fight
-She has control over sigil
-She is not a diety
-She can kill anyone in sigil

We want here to die. Fool her into think she (or part of here) is someone else. She kills it she dies.

If that doesn't work Ao vs Lady of pain?


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## afreed (Feb 12, 2004)

simmo said:
			
		

> Another method is to get a big black marker pen and erase her name from every RPG product that you own.




Nah. Kiaransalee tried that with Orcus, and we saw how well <i>that</i> worked...


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## BlackMoria (Feb 12, 2004)

It may be impossible to destroy Sigil if the Lady and Sigil are a two faces of the same coin.

That said, it may be possible to isolate Sigil by severing all planar connections in and out of the city at their outside Sigil origins, and then use a siege or some powerful magics to physically separate the city from its environment.

Perhaps 'shift' Sigil to the Far Realm by some method.

Then let the party begin....


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

eris404 said:
			
		

> How 'bout this: she is a myth, was always a myth and doesn't really exist.




Hmmmm... maybe a sword like in the Sword of Shanarra that shows truth.  She doesn't exist but thinks she does and so when hit with the sword is shown to herself that she doesn't exist, realises it, and then ceases to be.


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## jester47 (Feb 12, 2004)

The way I see it from wha has been written about her is that The Lady of Pain is a version of the Unstoppable Force.  Planescape is about ideas having power and the Lady of Pain is the idea of the unstoppable. 

I think that the only thing that could be able to hold her at bay is the Immovable Object.  The problem being getting that to where she is...

Canonwise you can get her kicked out of the city, but you won't be able to destroy her.  And you can bet that when she gets kicked out, she is going to go after every fool worshiping her (cause thats the only way out) until she is back in the city.  And who says that the portals will work when she is not there?  Unless the fiends have some override magic, then they might get trapped in Sigil. 

Who knows.  

Aaron.


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## jester47 (Feb 12, 2004)

Also, while it is not Canon, I would check out "Die, Vecna, Die!" for some ideas.  Vecna pulls a pretty good stunt, and manifests as a god in Sigil.  This causes problems for the Lady of Pain.  

Check it out...

Aaron.


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## dagger (Feb 12, 2004)

Ninja's ...lol


You folks crack me up...lol


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## Altamont Ravenard (Feb 12, 2004)

dagger said:
			
		

> Ninja's ...lol
> 
> 
> You folks crack me up...lol




What if the Lady of Pain WAS a Ninja?

On a totally unrelated note, I saw a girl this autumn with a Lady of Pain tatoo on her back. Most incredible.

AR


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## Zappo (Feb 12, 2004)

You could bring the Far Plane into the equation. It wasn't in the 2E material at all, so the interactions between the Far Plane and the Planescape material is undefined. You could say that the Lady is an Unknowable Lovecraftian Power From The Far Plane With Power Beyone Understanding, and that there are even greater beings where she came from. She lacks tentacles, but she isn't short in power or unknowableness.

 Maybe the entire toroidal city of Sigil is a portal to the Far Plane, and the constant tearing down and rebuilding that the dabus do is nothing more than the key needed to open it. When the Streets are Right, Ultimate Horror shall be Released upon the Multiverse. Or something.


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## realmprotector (Feb 12, 2004)

You could always open a portal to the Star Wars universe and bring in the Emperor Palpatine a little force lightning ought to shake her up...Then again he'll probably just get flayed...


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## LGodamus (Feb 12, 2004)

Ferret said:
			
		

> Lets look at with with logic:
> 
> -You cannot kill her in a fight
> -She has control over sigil
> ...



 BY planescape, overpowers such as AO only have much power in there own  pantheon or  sphere of influence..so in short Ao= the loser in this fight


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## LGodamus (Feb 12, 2004)

BlackMoria said:
			
		

> It may be impossible to destroy Sigil if the Lady and Sigil are a two faces of the same coin.
> 
> That said, it may be possible to isolate Sigil by severing all planar connections in and out of the city at their outside Sigil origins, and then use a siege or some powerful magics to physically separate the city from its environment.
> 
> ...



  the problem with this one is...how do you shift sigil ...since its at the top of the spire where all magic and supernatural abilities including that of the mightiest gods are null ?


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

Zappo said:
			
		

> You could bring the Far Plane into the equation. It wasn't in the 2E material at all, so the interactions between the Far Plane and the Planescape material is undefined. You could say that the Lady is an Unknowable Lovecraftian Power From The Far Plane With Power Beyone Understanding, and that there are even greater beings where she came from. She lacks tentacles, but she isn't short in power or unknowableness.
> 
> Maybe the entire toroidal city of Sigil is a portal to the Far Plane, and the constant tearing down and rebuilding that the dabus do is nothing more than the key needed to open it. When the Streets are Right, Ultimate Horror shall be Released upon the Multiverse. Or something.




Maybe the Fiends found the resting place of Cthulhu and woke him up?  He'd be a match for her, no?


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

realmprotector said:
			
		

> You could always open a portal to the Star Wars universe and bring in the Emperor Palpatine a little force lightning ought to shake her up...Then again he'll probably just get flayed...




Do not underestimate the power of the force.


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## Crothian (Feb 12, 2004)

As long as she is undefined, it's impossible to say.  But waking up Cthulhu might cause more problems then it solves.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

Crothian said:
			
		

> As long as she is undefined, it's impossible to say.  But waking up Cthulhu might cause more problems then it solves.




Maybe Cthulhu's resting place IS Sigil and the Lady is there to ensure he doesn't wake?

"That which is not dead may eternal lie, and in strange aeons death may die."  Cthulhu can't die so her little flaying trick wouldn't work... it'd just make him really upset.


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## dagger (Feb 12, 2004)

I just read in another thread that a new Ninja core class has been created.....problems solved.


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## orangefruitbat (Feb 12, 2004)

You could:
1) Trick her into leaving Sigil (alternatively, worship her so she becomes divine and is kicked out by her own rules)

2) Reflect her into one of her own Mazes

3) Consume her with an entity of non-euclidian geometry

4) Seal off Sigil from the Multiverse and have her starve

5) Unleash the Furies upon her

6) Slay her before she was even born

7) Ask her if she was happy

8) Replace her and become the new Lady of Pain (much like the countless placeholders before)

9) Attack her with the First weapon in the multiverse that caused the death of another

10) Death comes for a visit (or any other of the Endless)

11) Pull a Vecna, but unlike the lich, win!

12) Have a lowly kobold child throw a rock at her

The trick with the Lady isn't that she's got a bazillion HP or +100 SR but that she's something other. Once you as DM define what that is, then there should be no shortage of creative ways to remove her from the game. I too am sick of the Lady is sooo powerful fetishists.


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## JesterPoet (Feb 12, 2004)

orangefruitbat said:
			
		

> You could:
> 
> ...
> 
> ...




And we all know that Furries are the top of the food chain when it comes to fetishists...  This just might work!


Wait... maybe I read that wrong...


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## orangefruitbat (Feb 12, 2004)

JesterPoet said:
			
		

> And we all know that Furries are the top of the food chain when it comes to fetishists...  This just might work!
> 
> 
> Wait... maybe I read that wrong...





I like your idea better


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## Wrahn (Feb 12, 2004)

With only a smattering of the Planescape under my belt, I would guess the first step in defeating her would be to find out what she is.  Until anyone has any idea what she is, then effectively there is no way to defeat her.

I can think of one place that would be possible, mind you this is all conjecture.  Sigil is at the top of an infinitely tall spire at the very center of Concordant Opposition, in other words the very center of the planes.  (How an infinitely tall spire can have a top or how something of infinite size can have a center should give you a relative idea of the magnitude of the problem you are facing).  Sigil is inside a torus (a donut shaped structure).  It has a hole in the center.  It is in this hole that I would reason the answer to the riddle of the Lady of Pain can be found and perhaps much more.

Of course, this leads to a few problems in and of itself.  The Lady of Pain does not take kindly to people digging through her city to find out what is outside.  Inside of Sigil her demonstrable seems pretty much insurmountable.  It is suspected that gods are banned from Sigil by her power.  Nothing short of a god would even come close to challenging her and even then Aoskar will attest that a godhead is not enough to insure victory.

On the other hand you could scale the infinitely tall spire.  All you would need is infinite speed.  It is also known that those who try and climb the spire usually end up dead.  It is for this reason that I believe there are answers to be found just outside of Sigil, because someone is protecting it.

The Lady of Pain is not unkillable by Planescape canon, to my understanding.  They leave her an enigma never defining her.  Her motives are completely unknown, just like her nature.  But it is very apparent she is VERY difficult to kill, as she has been around a long time.


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## Shemeska (Feb 12, 2004)

At the risk of sounding arrogant, I'll quote myself here from the Planewalker 'Planescape Campaign Setting, Chapter 7: Sigil':

DM’s Dark: Using the Lady

The Lady of Pain is less an NPC than a setting mechanic. She transcends any game mechanic and has no stats.  Should She be directly challenged by PC’s or NPC’s, nothing they do should be capable of hitting or harming Her. Not a wish, not a miracle, not even epic spells. Even the overpowers cannot defy the barriers preventing powers from entering the Cage (not that such beings tend to have interests beyond their sphere of influence anyways). 

Within Sigil, the Lady of Pain should be considered as close to all powerful as needed. That said, the Lady should not be overexposed or used outside of rare occasions lest She lose the mystique and grandeur that surrounds Her, along with the unknown details of Her history and true connection to Sigil or indeed roll within the multiverse itself.    

Those who challenge the Lady are mazed or flayed with no sympathy, malice, or quarter given by Her Serenity. Those who harm Sigil or disrupt the life of the city in grand fashion will suffer the same fate, as will those who seek to delve too deeply into the secrets of the Lady (if they manage to escape insanity in their quest). Some things are beyond the scope of the PC’s in the setting, and interacting with the Lady in all but the most rare and unique fashion should be avoided. At most, a character may see the Lady floating silently down a street in Sigil, or perhaps once in the course of a long and well-developed campaign a PC may witness a flaying or an edict given by the Lady to them or others. Such edicts should be reserved for campaign defining events with major ramifications within Sigil.    

Considering all this, the Lady is not omnipotent (not completely, anyways). In terms of the metaplot, certain “weaknesses” have been exploited in the past, and the rare NPC has seemingly come close to gaining some victory over Her, only to ultimately fail (and sometimes with evidence such attempts were merely part of the Lady’s design). In any case, the Lady should always remain above and beyond the ambitions of the PCs.


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## Shemeska (Feb 12, 2004)

More from Planewalker copied here (it's a nice summary of the information from 2e and now in 3e, and I don't wish to repeat myself)

The Lady

The planes have mysteries cutter, and not all of them have answers. Walk the planes long enough and that’s something you’ll take to heart. Some things just ARE. You don’t question them, you don’t fight them, and you don’t so much as stand in their way. They just exist and you accept it.

    Not the lady of pain, no, the Lady of Pain. Her Serenity, Her Dread Majesty, and the ultimate power in Sigil (perhaps anywhere else, it’s reckoned by some). She keeps and controls the portals of the City of Doors, and She bars the powers from entering. Appearing as a tall, robed woman with Her face sprouting a halo and headdress of blades from Her very flesh, She floats silently above the streets of Sigil. She is the protector of Sigil and, by that, all of its inhabitants, not that She likely cares one way or another for anyone in the city. But any threats to Sigil itself or to Her own power and She reacts. During these select few times in Sigil’s history, terrible Her fury has been, and most Cagers prefer to forget such occurrences.

     From time to time, She may randomly float down an avenue, passively observing before vanishing around a corner without a trace. Wise bloods look away and avert their eyes, or quickly find business elsewhere. She never speaks; never has in the history of Sigil as far as any know. In the scant few times She’s needed to make Her will known directly She’s done so through one of Her servants, the dabus, as She floats silently behind them, never a mark of emotion crossing Her face. Not that it’s wise to stare into that continence.

    She’s not a god, get that straight. She’s something else, more or less; none know the dark of it. But never worship Her, not even in jest. Those who do are found dead; their skin flayed from their bones, seen walking through Sigil when the Lady appears and Her shadow reaches out to strike them. Wherever Her bladed, serrated shadow touches, their body erupts with slashes, wounds and gouges as if from a storm of knives and razors. None have ever survived the touch of Her shadow, nor even been successfully resurrected afterwards. They die, that is certain, for when She acts, She acts with certainty.

    The chant even goes that centuries ago, before the Great Upheaval, the Lady penned a true deity into the dead book, Aoskar, the self-proclaimed Portal Father and patron of planewalkers and opportunity. She killed him, simple as that. They say for one reason or another he offended Her, or plotted to take the City of Doors for himself. 

The Portal Father

Long ago, before the Shattered Temple District gained its name and the Athar claimed the ruins as their own, the Shattered Temple was the High Temple of Aoskar. At its height, Aoskar claimed nearly half of the residents of the Cage as his worshippers, with many of them whispering a prayer to him before passing into or out of a portal to Sigil. In fact, eventually the worship of Aoskar become nearly synonymous with the City of Doors itself, and a time came when berks began to worship the Lady of Pain as an aspect of him.    

Whatever his ultimate reasons, Aoskar’s final offense to the Lady was when one of the dabus took up the robes of his priesthood and endorsed the worship of the Father of Portals, forsaking Her Serenity in doing so. That dabus, still alive and forsaken by his own kind, is known as Fell. None besides him and the Lady know the true dark of what exactly happened, save that the temple, and all within were obliterated in what would be called by some graybeards as the Day of Blades and Fury. The temple was reduced to rubble along with the city surrounding it, and Aoskar, along with all of his mortal worshippers throughout the multiverse, were killed by the lancing shadow of Her Serenity in a single moment of horror. Some claim to have seen the withered husk of Aoskar upon the Astral, its stony face locked into a gasp of terror, one petrified arm raised as if to ward off some attack, and pierced through with glimmering, metallic blades.    

The symbols and trappings of the faith of Aoskar have since then been considered anathema within Sigil, such was Her fury that day to not only kill a greater power but all of his mortal host as well. Such are the lengths that the Lady will go to protect Her city and Her position within.

    Speculation on the true nature of the Lady is rife among scholars, sages, and the common folks of Sigil alike. But answers are never forthcoming from any source. Still, the common chant, most likely all screed without a shred of proof, holds a number of common myths. Some say that the Lady is a mortal who found Sigil and used it to grant Herself immeasurable power. Other rumors hold that She is a renegade, or risen, Tanar’ri lord from the Abyss. Others say that she was hatched from a dabus egg [Whatever that is – The Editor] by Io, the draconic overpower. A few even suggest She may simply be an illusion of the dabus themselves, or their queen, much like that among bees in a hive. Now dead sages, rumored mazed or flayed, have claimed that the Lady is not the ruler of Sigil, but its ultimate prisoner. After all, why else might Sigil be called the Cage? Some have compared the Lady to an overpower, or some unique, but nondivine being, so ancient as to defy mortal definitions. A being who exists to keep Sigil free of any and all divine influences, perhaps in an attempt to balance the planes themselves.

    Of course, not a shred of proof exists to shed a light upon the mystery. And those who seek to delve too deeply into the Lady’s secrets tend to vanish without a trace, gone, whisked away on the winds of oblivion.


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## Shemeska (Feb 12, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I would use ninjas. I hear that they have real ultimate power.




Oooooh... hmm, now then shall we wait for the entirety of the Lotus Blossum District in the Hive to get mazed now because the local ninja's got paid to pen The Lady into the dead book?    

*chuckle* Real Ultimate Power there


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## LightPhoenix (Feb 13, 2004)

Simple - Destroy Sigil.

How?  Destroy the Spire.

According to MotP, magic is impeded and limited near the Spire.  At 1,200 miles, you can use any spell you wish.  This is all according to the chart and text on page 147.

So... as an epic caster of no small power, stand 1,200 miles away (or less, where high-level magic is impeded - Spellcraft check of 35 needed to cast).  Create an epic spell, destroy the Spire with it.  Simple.

You could argue the Spire mutes magic that enters the area.  No such mechanic exists in 3E, to my knowledge, though it is certainly logical.

Another alternative way is to simply use technology - it's not muted at all.  epic-level fighters with explosives could eventually chip away enough of the Spire for it to topple.  Plus, they'll be the best equipped to deal with pesky interlopers - according to MotP, few divine powers even work near the spire, so certainly no mortal magic would.  Only a major god could stop you, and even then I'd rule their powers severly limited - as per the rules laid out in MotP.

Of course, you could just hand-wave it, since that's exactly what the Lady of Pain is - a hand-wave.  A convenient plot device that "explains" why no gods are involved.  It's the only thing I didn't like in Planescape.

Note, destoying the Spire _would_ cause a major cataclysm, since it's supposedly the axis of the planes.


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## rounser (Feb 13, 2004)

> She's a plot device.



Ah, but is not even the lowliest kobold naught but a plot device as well?
Does it not bend to the needs and will of the DM?
Consider the lillies of the field...


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## Salthorae (Feb 13, 2004)

*2cp*

A couple of things

1) How is worshipping the Lady going to kick her out of Sigil? It's been tried and as the "official" books above show those who dare wind up dead. It's *HER RULE* that doesn't allow the Powers into the city, you think she didn't think of the possiblity that sometime somewhere beings would maybe try to worship her when making the rule. That maybe she didn't include herself in the rule? What kind of _Uber-powerful Nigh Unstoppable Plot Device _(tm) would allow herself to be so simply thwarted through such a simple ploy? With her level of power *if* you're going to throw her down, then it should require something insanely powerful and well thoughtout to do her justice, not a loophole.

2)For an interesting look at the origins of the Lady and possible insight into the scope of her power and limitations, look at the novel Pages of Pain by Troy Denning, 1998 (TSR Hobbies).


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## SamuraiY (Feb 13, 2004)

How about this one? The Tarrasque vs. The Lady Of Pain. True she'd probably kill him but it'd be interesting to watch.


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## Shemeska (Feb 13, 2004)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> So... as an epic caster of no small power, stand 1,200 miles away (or less, where high-level magic is impeded - Spellcraft check of 35 needed to cast).  Create an epic spell, destroy the Spire with it.  Simple.
> 
> You could argue the Spire mutes magic that enters the area.  No such mechanic exists in 3E, to my knowledge, though it is certainly logical.




Magic is simply nonexistant at the base of the spire, sucked up and drawn away into the Spire itself. Epic spell or not, it won't won't. I don't care to much speculate on how the situation might have changed just because there isn't yet an appropriate mechanic written down in 3e to handle it by the numbers.

As far as breaking the spire down by hand or tech. There's really no info on just how thick the Spire is, or how difficult to dig into it is. There's no real description of the rock that makes it up either. There's theories that the spire regenerates itself and somehow does something with the magic is funnels off from the entire multiverse. I'd compare attempting to break down the spire itself as tilting at windmills frankly.

Also if you tried to do so you'd have the entirety of the Rilmani race surrounding you and no magic to defend you. The Rilmani may or may not be able to use their own magic at the base of spire, something to do with their own ties to the essence of The Outlands. That doesn't bode well for someone trying to destroy the spire.


And oh, w/ regards to 'Pages of Pain' by Troy Denning. Nice story, interesting novel, but there's a reason why it isn't considered to be canonical to the setting. It's handling of The Lady was totally divorced from the world and the ideas of the design team. I believe Monte Cook referred to that book's explanations as 'wacky'. *chuckle* Divorce yourself from the setting before you read it, and don't try and reconcile it with anything you know of Planescape and you'll enjoy the story.


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## Sejs (Feb 13, 2004)

Just to speculate here, let's follow the ant trail:

- Sigil is rife with portals to everywhere else that is, more or less.  Holes, if you will.

- To destroy the Lady, you need to destroy Sigil.

- Sigil sits at the top of the Spire.

- The Spire sits in the center of the Outlands.

- The Outlands is the center of the outer planes.

- The outer planes is a place where metafor becomes reality, and true, honest belief in something makes that thing true.


Why do I have an image of the plug being taken out of the drain of the multiverse?


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## Hardhead (Feb 13, 2004)

Beating the Lady of Pain ain't impossible to beat.  Just really really tough.

FIRST, you'll need to hang out in Harbinger House.  See the adventure of the same name.  Assuming your DM hasn't run it yet, the Focrux (if I remember the name correctly) is still working.  It protects anything in the  House from scrying and detection.  Even from the Lady of Pain herself.

Once you're there (I'd try masquerading as people with the divine spark, so the Godsmen would _want_ you there), you can put a plan into action.  

Now starts the tricky part.  How do you kill her.  

If you can somehow get your hands on the Last Word, you could do it.  However, you'd have to be _very_ Epic to be able to use it (and also play through Dead Gods and have a DM that you can pull something on!).  I don't think any DM worth his screen would let you get away with that.

I might try questioning the Daubus.  And by questioning, I mean torture.  Of course, the Lady would normally kill you for that.  But again, you're in the Harbinger House, so you should be fine.

A true god should be able to defeat her.  The problem is getting one in.  No one knows how to do that, but Skall might have some answers.  After all, he Astral Projects into Sigil from the Negative Energy Plane... and that's supposed to be impossible.  How he does that might be a clue.

(SPOILER FOR FACTOL'S MANIFESTO AND FACTION WAR) Hashkar is a petitioner of Sigil and/or the Lady of Pain.  Somehow, perhaps his connection could be exploited.


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## FireLance (Feb 13, 2004)

The way to defeat an unstatted, apparently invincible plot device such as the Lady of Pain is to get the DM to pit it against another unstatted, apparently invincible plot device such as the Serpent, the mysterious entity that whispers secrets of power to Vecna.


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## FireLance (Feb 13, 2004)

Better still, sic Batman on her .


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## SamuraiY (Feb 13, 2004)

I still like my idea orf sicing the tarrasque on her. You come out ahead no matter what! She beats it, you're rid of the Tarrasque; it beats her, you're rid of The Lady Of Pain; or they fight until the end of eternity in which case you're rid of the both of them.


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## Shemeska (Feb 13, 2004)

Nice ideas there Hardhead, and one of the few (the only) I've seen that might actually do something. I wouldn't say it'd be the desired effect, just that it would have an effect. The Last Word we know can slay deities instantly, however we don't know the upper boundary of its power, or other things about it.

For instance, does the target deity have to be manifested physically to get nailed with it? The Lady doesn't have to appear to maze or flay anything for certain, so would you even have the chance to use it? Would The Lady be hurt by it? Would She laugh at your use of it? Would She do nothing and then reply in the same language? All open questions that don't have concrete answers, but thats half the fun of working with them.


And on a second point, it's been interesting to see 'The Serpent' change from its earliest mention in the Vecna modules where it was never in reference to an actual being, it was just Vecna's way of personifying magic as more than just a benign force.

Eventually other authors altered that till The Serpent became (in Die Vecna Die) an actual being of sorts that used Vecna for its own purposes, etc.


And The Lady of Pain versus the Tarasque. After all, noone knows just what, if anything, was ever kept locked away behind the rusted iron bars of The Gatehouse in Sigil. My own interpretation was that it may have been The Mother of Serpents kept locked away there at some point in the dim forgotten past, but of course there's nothing to prove that.

But that fight would go something like this, if She allowed the beast to enter Sigil in the first place.

Round 1: The Lady goes first and Her shadow transfixes the Tarasque. The Tarasque shudders as it erupts into a boiling cloud of blood and screams.

Round 2-20: More blood and more tortured screaming, gradually fading away

Round 21: The shadow vanishes, the blood settles to the street like a fine rain and reveals nothing but a large smear where the Tarasque once stood

Actually come to think of it, thats how alot of encounters with The Lady would end...


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## The Goblin King (Feb 13, 2004)

FireLance said:
			
		

> Better still, sic Batman on her .




Or better yet Van Helsing. 

Personally, I think of The Lady as a manifestation of Sigil.  She might not have started that way but it seems to be true now.  You can not defeat her without distroying the city.  However, there may be a way to placate her/it.  Or maby reach an agreement where your armies would be allowed free passage.  I don't know.  Perhaps if you knew how she got to be The Lady it would be some clue.


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## SamuraiY (Feb 13, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> Round 1: The Lady goes first and Her shadow transfixes the Tarasque. The Tarasque shudders as it erupts into a boiling cloud of blood and screams.
> 
> Round 2-20: More blood and more tortured screaming, gradually fading away
> 
> ...




Ya I know. I wasnt suggesting it as a serious possibility, but you do have to admit we come out ahead


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## Shemeska (Feb 13, 2004)

SamuraiY said:
			
		

> Ya I know. I wasnt suggesting it as a serious possibility, but you do have to admit we come out ahead




*grin* Very true


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## Trickstergod (Feb 13, 2004)

Just because something is a Plot Device doesn't mean it can't be done away with. 

In Planescape, if there were ever a bigger or more grand Plot Device, it would be the destruction of the Lady of Pain. It's the equivalent of the apocalypse for other settings, not a, but the epic, world-shattering event. 

All that matters is that it's done feasibly, though. There needs to be a strong reason why it hasn't already happened. 

And stats still shouldn't exist for the Lady of Pain; give her an Achilles Heel, her kryptonite, but under no circumstances should combat be a viable option. Ultimately, belief, in some way or another, should be at the heart of things. 

Which is really what Planescape is about, anyway. The setting is about the impossible. About the very essence of the universe and reality. 

Anyone who thinks something can't happen in Planescape, that there are certain things that are absolutely impossible to do, has missed the point.


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## Pants (Feb 13, 2004)

The Last Word.

If the lowly undead Orcus can use it to kill true dieties then it has a good chance of either 1) killing the Lady, 2) Destroying Sigil, or (at the very least) 3) Discovering a weakness of some sort.

Or, there's another way to screw the Lady.  Trick her into killing Primus (somehow, I didn't say it would be easy).


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## taotad (Feb 13, 2004)

If you don't like the Lady, then just go ahead and flay her. Nobody's going to stop you.

It's just that many of us like her, and wants her around. She's a constant presence in the multiverse that's kinda handy to have around.

For me, writing up stats on her would be like statting up Ravenlofts Horror theme.


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## Viehl (Feb 13, 2004)

How do you kill the Lady?

Simple. The same way you would kill Azathoth in a CoC game.


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## Zappo (Feb 13, 2004)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> You could argue the Spire mutes magic that enters the area. No such mechanic exists in 3E, to my knowledge, though it is certainly logical.



Antimagic does that.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Feb 13, 2004)

Of course, all this came up originally in the context of the Blood War actually ending and the fiends uniting, as mentioned here www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=76035&page=1

The wonderful thing about Planescape is that it is (as others have said) about belief.  If all the fiends got their act together, they would quickly develop the belief that they were invincible, that they could, in short, do anything.  After they had overrun a few hundred primes, sucked large sections of the Outlands right into the Lower Planes, slapped Primus around like a red-headed step-child, chased the Githzerai right out of Limbo, and were making serious assaults on the Upper Planes, a LOT of other beings throughout the multiverse would also begin to believe the fiends were unstoppable and could, in fact, do anything.  Like, for example, conquer Sigil.  In any setting but Planescape, the question of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin is pretty academic.  But I ask...  How much belief does it take to spin Sigil on its axis? 

Once the Plot Device of the Power of Belief comes crashing into the Plot Device of the Lady of Pain, right *after* the ending of the Plot Device known as the Blood War, well, I think there's a case to be made we'd have a new Plot Device (or two or three) on our hands.

Besides, the Lady of Pain as a plot device is there to prevent the PCs from doing all kinds of kooky things, not to prevent the DM from running interesting stories.

And really, what's more important: Having fun (and D&D Armageddon sounds pretty fun to me  ), or maintaining a status quo for the sake of someone else's published material?

Plus, not to get off on a rant here... but why does what someone else might or might not want to do with the Lady of Pain get people's panties in a bunch?  If I decide that _in my game_ the Lady of Pain can be taken out of the picture by a Pixie with a Sleep arrow or that she's really just misunderstood and that a reasonably handsome PC with a bouquet of flowers could melt her hard heart and turn her into the Lady of Roses and Unicorns, does that somehow cheapen everyone else's Planescape game?


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## Arnwyn (Feb 13, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> And oh, w/ regards to 'Pages of Pain' by Troy Denning. Nice story, interesting novel, but there's a reason why it isn't considered to be canonical to the setting.



I'd love to see where that's actually said... (and, no, Monte Cook saying it's "wacky" doesn't cut it). Got a reference?


			
				Canis said:
			
		

> Plus, not to get off on a rant here... but why does what someone else might or might not want to do with the Lady of Pain get people's panties in a bunch?



I'm not sure anyone is _really_ saying that.

Are they?


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## Carnifex (Feb 13, 2004)

> Plus, not to get off on a rant here... but why does what someone else might or might not want to do with the Lady of Pain get people's panties in a bunch?  If I decide that _in my game_ the Lady of Pain can be taken out of the picture by a Pixie with a Sleep arrow or that she's really just misunderstood and that a reasonably handsome PC with a bouquet of flowers could melt her hard heart and turn her into the Lady of Roses and Unicorns, does that somehow cheapen everyone else's Planescape game?




I believe that Calico_Jack was looking originally for official stuff for killing off the Lady of Pain, rather than saying 'in my game, I did this'.


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## Alzrius (Feb 13, 2004)

This has probably been said before, but I just wanted to point it out again. The Lady of Pain is not omniscient, nor omnipotent.

As Hardhead mentioned, the Focrux from _Harbinger House_ could shield anything in its area of effect from detection.

Likewise, a god can get into Sigil, though it's damn near impossible. Likewise, there's nothing technically stopping someone from ascending from mortal to god while in Sigil.

The Lady of Pain forces gods from Sigil by channeling her power against them in the form of unbearable agony. It is possible to resist that power however, though even for a greater god, it took a supreme amount of effort. 

There doesn't seem to be a direct way of fighting the Lady of Pain, per se. However, the presence of a god in Sigil destabilizes it - and by extension, the rest of the multiverse. Presumably, if it can be destabilized enough, Sigil will be destroyed, along with the Lady of Pain, and the destroyer could then step up and reshape the multiverse as he or she saw fit, becoming the overgod of that new cosmos. Even for a greater deity though, this requires days in Sigil.

It's also worth noting that the Lady's known form (woman with a bladed headdress in a kimono) isn't her true form. _Die Vecna Die_ (which IS canon, though many of the _Planescape_ fans wish it were otherwise) mentions in passing that the Lady could take her "true, resplendent" form to battle Vecna when he tries to destroy Sigil (though she doesn't), but doing so would instantly destroy Sigil and the multiverse.


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## LGodamus (Feb 13, 2004)

I think the whole bloodwar thread ..is more interesting if you dont destroy the lady..or sigil. There has to be some last bastion for the PCs to strike out from otherwise there isnt much point of having it as a setting for roleplaying now is there?


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Feb 13, 2004)

Carnifex said:
			
		

> I believe that Calico_Jack was looking originally for official stuff for killing off the Lady of Pain, rather than saying 'in my game, I did this'.



That is the way he phrased it, but I followed this thing from over on the other thread, where it was originally about the Fiends taking over Sigil, and the argument started because some people insisted that taking over Sigil is impossible because the Lady is uber and would never allow it.

Personally, I would be looking for ways for the fiends to temporarily get around the Lady rather than destroying her.  For one thing, I like her, and would eventually want her back in place if the game ran that way.  For another, Paka's image of a refugee Lady of Pain in the Outlands really struck a chord with me.

That, along with the image of Vecna tearing out his other eye (see the thread I linked earlier) is what sold me on the idea of a D&D Armageddon campaign.  If I was involved in a game with experienced players, I would SO be pushing this idea.


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## Shemeska (Feb 13, 2004)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> It's also worth noting that the Lady's known form (woman with a bladed headdress in a kimono) isn't her true form. _Die Vecna Die_ (which IS canon, though many of the _Planescape_ fans wish it were otherwise) mentions in passing that the Lady could take her "true, resplendent" form to battle Vecna when he tries to destroy Sigil (though she doesn't), but doing so would instantly destroy Sigil and the multiverse.




While Die Vecna Die uses Sigil it was never an actual Planescape product, nor was it coordinated with the Planescape team when it was written. It's the equivalent of a Dragonlance product using Elminster, having him beaten senseless by Tasselhoff and expecting FR to incorporate this into its own canon material.

Planewalker's take on the canon of 'Die Vecna Die' is that while the events of the module did in fact happen, some of those events happened a bit differently, and not at all for the reasons the module gives on the last few pages (ie. its interpretation of The Lady is getting chucked). For what it's worth I was in favor of this, as opposed to the other viewpoint which was to shun the module entirely and ignore that it was ever made.


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## Alzrius (Feb 13, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> While Die Vecna Die uses Sigil it was never an actual Planescape product, nor was it coordinated with the Planescape team when it was written. It's the equivalent of a Dragonlance product using Elminster, having him beaten senseless by Tasselhoff and expecting FR to incorporate this into its own canon material.




Be that as it may, it's still a 100% canon product. Ultimately, the internal politics of it don't matter - the product was released by WotC under the AD&D 2E logo, and nothing in it directly contradicts previous material. I know a lot of PS fans would say that it does, but things like explaining the Lady aren't a contradiction - they're expounding on things that were previously left unexplained; those fans aren't pointing out a discrepancy, they're pointing out what they don't like.



> _Planewalker's take on the canon of 'Die Vecna Die' is that while the events of the module did in fact happen, some of those events happened a bit differently, and not at all for the reasons the module gives on the last few pages (ie. its interpretation of The Lady is getting chucked). For what it's worth I was in favor of this, as opposed to the other viewpoint which was to shun the module entirely and ignore that it was ever made._




It bothers me that the view that was never considered was that the module happened in it's entirety exactly as written. From a player's perspective, no major darks were revealed, since notations about things such as the Lady's true form were all made in DM-only sections.

I'm glad Planewalker is continuing PS, I really am, but they're retconning a canon product simply because its something the majority of them personally disagree to. That's mixing a personal preference in with a professional function, and is a major strike against them in my book (which, I know, doesn't count for anything; I'm just saying it).


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## Shemeska (Feb 13, 2004)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Be that as it may, it's still a 100% canon product. Ultimately, the internal politics of it don't matter - the product was released by WotC under the AD&D 2E logo, and nothing in it directly contradicts previous material. I know a lot of PS fans would say that it does, but things like explaining the Lady aren't a contradiction - they're expounding on things that were previously left unexplained; those fans aren't pointing out a discrepancy, they're pointing out what they don't like.




*nod* I can see your point here and I'll respectfully disagree. 

However let me pose this question then: what makes the Planewalker decision regarding 'Die Vecna Die' w/ regards to Planescape different from the 3e FR decision to radically alter its cosmology from the Great Wheel to a set of unique planes (that were mostly just deity domains back in 2e) and selectively pick and choose which 2e planes to keep in name and concept, yet the FR Abyss isn't the same as the Great Wheel Abyss. They invalidated a slew of previous material in the process, and of course not everyone is happy with their decision.

[It's a convulted rationale there on their part, and I can't say I like entirely, but stay with me here for the comparison]


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## Alzrius (Feb 13, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> However let me pose this question then: what makes the Planewalker decision regarding 'Die Vecna Die' w/ regards to Planescape different from the 3e FR decision to radically alter its cosmology from the Great Wheel to a set of unique planes (that were mostly just deity domains back in 2e) and selectively pick and choose which 2e planes to keep in name and concept, yet the FR Abyss isn't the same as the Great Wheel Abyss. They invalidated a slew of previous material in the process, and of course not everyone is happy with their decision.
> 
> [It's a convulted rationale there on their part, and I can't say I like entirely, but stay with me here for the comparison]




I personally don't agree with it either. However, the difference is that that decision came from the top. Canonity is source-based. There has to be a singular authoritative voice that declares what is official and what is not. This authority has the ability to declare that previous things of theirs are no longer canon; in essence, they can declare when they're implementing a new paradigm in place of an old one. 

Planewalker, while invested with a measure of authority by WotC, is still taking on a retcon that is beyond their scope. I do not perceive them as having the authority to declare that a product that WotC themselves has no canonity issues with, must now be partially non-canon - authority over what is and is not canon flows from the top down, not from the bottom up. I don't like the 3E FR retconing of the cosmology and deity realms, but that's a personal pet peeve, and has no impact on the fact that that's how it is now.


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## Zjelani (Feb 13, 2004)

Even if you can't outright kill the Lady of Pain in your game, there is another way to defeat her that should fit 100% canonically (is that a word?).

Make her irrelevant.

Why is Sigil so important? Because it is a relatively neutral ground with an immense number of portals where you can be somewhat safe from the gods and Blood War.

Make another place that can do the same and more and voila! You have the next planar uber-city and Sigil eventually becomes a vacant ghost town where a massively powerful Lady of Pain wanders empty streets.

Of course, I never said it would be easy or quick. It'd take lifetimes and probably wouldn't ever see fruition. But if someone could pull it off, you would "defeat" the Lady without ever worrying about being flayed.

Just don't go naming the city "Union". Someone tried that, but Sigil survived.


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## Kyramus (Feb 13, 2004)

This is just a thought. Cosmology of a wheel and the Spire as the spoke.  
Now take for a moment that each plane connected to the spoke gives some sort of energy balance. 

To bring the Spire Down, the combined might of the Devils and Demons will need to find all the portals that lead to the Spire/Sigil and pretty much close it off from the rest of the planes.  

Assume for a moment that they do succeed in stopping travel to the Spire/Sigil.  The rest of the Planes (as the great wheel ) breaks up and slowly shifts away from the Spire (kinda like gravitational shift) until in the long run it'll take a lot to reconnect each plane to each other and to the Spire.

They don't need to OUST the Lady, they just ISOLATE her in her own HOME.  

Just a random thought from an analogy of a wheel wth a spoke image.


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## Shemeska (Feb 13, 2004)

Zjelani said:
			
		

> Just don't go naming the city "Union". Someone tried that, but Sigil survived.




*snicker* Not only survived but returned to take potshots at Union in all its EPICness. Nice one Ken.   

Mention Union in some places and you can all but hear the scowls  

As far as the idea of isolating The Lady goes, it's possible to disrupt and/or seal portals to Sigil. Typically its done by blocking or altering the bound space that forms the potal. People have done this, however it may be allowed to happen in some or all cases. And if you go sealing portals all over the planes that lead into Sigil I dare say your task will never end as more and more portals just begin to randomly appear to replace the ones you closed. 

Also, if The Lady can indeed reach outside of Sigil your days might be numbered in that endevour. To say nothing of people living inside of Sigil or having a firm stake in the city that would disapprove of your actions, aka most of the Factions, a number of planar sects, many religions and their deities, the Planar Trade Consortium, etc.

But it is an interesting idea, and I can easily see people attempting it. (At least one petitioner from Ysgard now lives in Sigil and does this on a nightly basis more or less. All of this in revenge for the mazing of Factol Vartus Timlin over 1000 years previous that led to the destruction of his faction, the Expansionists)


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## Wrath of the Swarm (Feb 13, 2004)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all those people the Lady/Sigil mazed over the years are still alive and in limbo, correct?

What would happen if someone found a way to free them?  What would happen if the Fiends and Demons found a way to free them?

Even better - what if the forces of Good found a way to free them, and decided that they were tired of tolerating Neutrality and Evil.  What if the War in Heaven were actually initiated by the Light?


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## Shemeska (Feb 13, 2004)

Wrath of the Swarm said:
			
		

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but all those people the Lady/Sigil mazed over the years are still alive and in limbo, correct?




Indeed they're presumably still there unless they found the one portal out to leave. Also, you don't age while in the mazes and food is provided to you. As far as suicide goes, presumably it isn't an option or otherwise it would be an easy way out to kill yourself and get ressurected outside once that happened. Perhaps you wake up again whole and still mazed, or your soul is trapped within the maze unable to migrate to the domain of your deity or plane of your alignment, or perhaps your petitioner reforms in the maze itself. Nobody knows.

Vartus Timlin, factol of the Expansionsts managed to escape his own maze (after killing the people who found his maze and entered it, intending to steal what was rumored to be an artifact level sword, 'Lightbringer' in his possession), fully 1000 years after he was initially mazed. He wasn't a day older than when he went in.

Now post Faction War, many of the old factols are now sitting in their own mazes in the Deep Ethereal, and presumably some of them might have rescue attempts mounted for them. Of course it took 1000 years for Timlin to be rescued, and his own people never managed to do so. So it may be easy to locate some mazes and enter them from the outside, or enter through the one portal that leads in and out, and horribly difficult to do so for other mazes.

But yes, theres a lot of powerful, arrogant, foolish and/or ignorant people locked away in their own mazes out there...


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## Wrath of the Swarm (Feb 13, 2004)

Possibly there are also scholars and sages who found clues regarding the Lady of Pain's true nature.  If some of them got out, it could cause some very interesting problems.


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## Squire James (Feb 13, 2004)

Using the Epic Level Handbook and other sources, IMC I've decided that the Lady's a Paragon Fallen Solar level 90 cleric with wealth equal to a PC of that level (no, Sigil itself doesn't count... she doesn't own the city, she just guards it from pesky gods and 71st level sorcerers).  She's considered to be on her home plane, because the chunk of land where Sigil now sits is made up of her plane of birth and various other "dead planes".

I never really felt the need to detail her stats further, except to say she'd be level 100 if it weren't for all those epic spells she made over the last several thousand years...


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## Shemeska (Feb 14, 2004)

Squire James said:
			
		

> Using the Epic Level Handbook and other sources, IMC I've decided that the Lady's a Paragon Fallen Solar level 90 cleric with wealth equal to a PC of that level (no, Sigil itself doesn't count... she doesn't own the city, she just guards it from pesky gods and 71st level sorcerers).  She's considered to be on her home plane, because the chunk of land where Sigil now sits is made up of her plane of birth and various other "dead planes".
> 
> I never really felt the need to detail her stats further, except to say she'd be level 100 if it weren't for all those epic spells she made over the last several thousand years...




Well, that's certainly your choice in your own campaign. If you don't mind me asking though, why did you feel it necessary to define The Lady both in terms of past history, species and character level?

How are you using Her in terms of your own game, as a typically expressionless enigma of a plot device or as an NPC that can be interacted with? I generally don't supply anything with stats beyond a name for them unless I feel that any PCs would ever actually fight them and not be obliterated in a single round without causing them harm in the slightest.


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## reiella (Feb 14, 2004)

The Lady is defined as undefined.

Simple as that, your best shot at it is to take the heresy of Die Vecna, Die.

Aside from that, the Lady can be WHATEVER the DM wishes her to be for their campaign purposes.  She can be a freaking ghost of a kid's lost teddybear for all we know.

To the rampant hyperbole about the basis of killing her, I just have to add this.

"SUCH IS THE WAY OF MANGO!"

Secondary.

I like Planescape because of the tone and theme.

Fun notes, Ao is specifically mentioned in the 2e Planescape box (The deity home location map thingy) and isn't any more a considerable threat than Corellon (who, being the god of Munchkin Elves, I still maintain has the best shot ).

BlackMoria's comments about planar siege weapons in Sigil is also a bit misleading.  The Lady supposedly can close all the portals in the city, and there is a Planar Siege Weapon in the city already (Coaxmetal).

Also, to make note, the city seems (in parts) independant of the will of the Lady and a unique entity (going so far as killing Dabus), so it is a doubtful argument that she is, in fact, the city itself.  There are also some fun tales of the previous god of portals who watched over Sigil before the Lady came (And whose worship is grounds for Mazing/Flaying).

Mazes are all 'infinitely unique' as well, so not too likly to find a means to free ALL the mazed individuals in one go.  Interesting sidenote, there are some implications that there are in fact some Deities in the Lady's Mazes.

Only real canon of an immortal/dying in a maze I've seen occured in Planescape, with TNO (who simply reforms in the maze) and a Gray Hag (who gets Splatted Good from all I can tell).

[ Sidenote, the AD&D 2e logo as canon has actually resulted in a number of canonization contradictions occuring, primarily in FR however, without considering the 3e content.  Further, Planewalker is allowed to use the Planescape logo, and thus claim the same level of canon as 2e PS products.  ]


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## Shemeska (Feb 14, 2004)

reiella said:
			
		

> Also, to make note, the city seems (in parts) independant of the will of the Lady and a unique entity (going so far as killing Dabus), so it is a doubtful argument that she is, in fact, the city itself.  There are also some fun tales of the previous god of portals who watched over Sigil before the Lady came (And whose worship is grounds for Mazing/Flaying).
> 
> Mazes are all 'infinitely unique' as well, so not too likly to find a means to free ALL the mazed individuals in one go.  Interesting sidenote, there are some implications that there are in fact some Deities in the Lady's Mazes.




Two things, for such is the way of the mango. 

First of all, Aoskar did not predate The Lady of Pain within Sigil. Aoskar was simply a greedy, rapacious god of portals who got about as close as any other being to usurping The Lady's position. That is to say, he failed utterly after seemingly getting close. The manner of his death is extreme to say the least. He, a greater god, died along with his clergy and most of his worshippers both in and out of Sigil. Perhaps if it pertains to Sigil, the reach of The Lady can extend outside of Sigil. Of course She can already reach outside of Sigil to the Ethereal to create The Mazes. Unresolved questions certainly.

Aoskar may have been present inside Sigil when he died, perhaps purposefully allowed into Sigil, or perhaps before his fall more divine presence was allowed into The Cage. We don't know because history gets vague beyond around 700 years and worse the further back you go. I suspect that he was outside of Sigil when he was killed, but thats just my view.

The Lady has, for every mention of Sigil, been entwined with the city and has been alluded to existing at the creation of The City in the utter earliest days of the planes themselves. Of course sources that far back are at best hazy.


And secondly, where are the implications of deities locked inside the mazes? I didn't recall that ever appearing anywhere, but you've got me curious now.


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## Numion (Feb 14, 2004)

Has the Lady of Pain existed always? Has she always been that omnipotent? If not, the answer is:

TIME TRAVEL

You flip back in time, flip open the can of whoop-ass on her, flip back to present. Don't lose the sports almanac.


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## reiella (Feb 14, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> And secondly, where are the implications of deities locked inside the mazes? I didn't recall that ever appearing anywhere, but you've got me curious now.




Hehe, on Aoskar, possible my memory blurring, and also the same on the second.  May also be possible for a Canon-Breach in Planescape:Torment (which I'm considering given how the city itself behaves in that game).

I seem to recall it from the details on the Mazes in the boxed set, which I'm now looking for .

Hmm sidenote, the Mazes are in the Ethereal Plane (Deep Ethereal), honestly it [It being the Powers in the Mazes] may be a memory blur.


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## Bendris Noulg (Feb 14, 2004)

I must admit, when running Planescape back in the day, I never saw the Lady as a plot devise so much as an icon of stability.  Fact is, every big wig in the planes (regardless of power level, ranking, or alignment) would sell their grandmother to south asian opium dealers for a _chance_ at taking over the city.  Remove the "nigh untouchable" Lady and replace her with a Lady possessing quantifiable statistics that make her defeatable, and the stability between factions, gods, and possibly even the Blood War goes up in smoke.  Sigil is the basis of being able to take 1st Level characters and dropping them off in the planes, the playground of the gods, knowing that they have a safe-haven and means of gaining supplies and getting to where they need/want to go (an important thing considering the even the good-aligned planes are far from safe, even for good-aligned characters).  Remove the stability, and suddenly the planes become far more hostile and intrusive (i.e., it goes back to being the stomping-ground of high level characters since the neutral "common ground" of Sigil is no longer neutral, if it remains at all).

Sure, one can make up a way to defeat her.  But, much like the Shadow of Midnight, such things should be left to the individual group.  Any "official" means of slaying her (which would include giving her stats, regardless of how min/maxed, power gamed or munchkinized those stats are) I would simply ignore.


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## taotad (Feb 15, 2004)

Bendris Noulg said:
			
		

> Sigil is the basis of being able to take 1st Level characters and dropping them off in the planes, the playground of the gods, knowing that they have a safe-haven and means of gaining supplies and getting to where they need/want to go (an important thing considering the even the good-aligned planes are far from safe, even for good-aligned characters).  Remove the stability, and suddenly the planes become far more hostile and intrusive (i.e., it goes back to being the stomping-ground of high level characters since the neutral "common ground" of Sigil is no longer neutral, if it remains at all).



The best argument so far.

The Lady makes the planes accessible, and more easily traversed.


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## Zappo (Feb 15, 2004)

reiella said:
			
		

> Fun notes, Ao is specifically mentioned in the 2e Planescape box (The deity home location map thingy) and isn't any more a considerable threat than Corellon (who, being the god of Munchkin Elves, I still maintain has the best shot ).



In Planescape, it is stated that the omnipotence of an overgod (such as Ao) is limited to its crystal sphere. Outside realmspace, Ao is "only" a normal god. Corellon is supposed to be the god of (most of the) elves in all of the prime material, so on the planes he's more powerful.


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## midknight12 (Feb 15, 2004)

The Lady of Pain is a difficult subject. First of all, the spire in which sigil sits on top of neutralizes all of a god's power. No priest can cast spells next to the spire. If you follow the novel, I believen the Book of Pain (not sure), says that she was a demi god to be married to Set. However, she dove into the river of stys to escape and dissappeared. With this in mind, she is some kind of god-like being that has utilized whatever power source that is at the spire and neutralizes god-like powers. She controls the portals and the mazes to keep all the troublemakers in line and out of the city. With all this in mind, the power to destroy her lies in worshipping her. I don't think it could work by worshipping her from some place in the prime material world, because the spires field blocks this, IMHO.  So, you would have to worship her in sigil and get enough to exalt her to full godhood. When she becomes a god, she would lose her power and i think it would destroy her, since she uses the power from the spire and the polarized energies would annihilate each other with an explosive affect. Sigil would dissappear, unfortunately. Another way is by drawing the spires energy away from her to make her powerless of couse, i think the donut would die too in the process.

Those are my thoughts. I wouldn't want to destroy her. And I still wish WOTC would allow someone to do a d20 or OGL Planescape. The Planescape project is doing a good job, just wish it would go faster. 

David


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## Bran Blackbyrd (Feb 15, 2004)

It has been said before in this thread and I'll say it again. Who would want to defeat the Lady of Pain?

If you're a player asking this question, find better things to do with your time. 
If you're a DM looking for a way to make cataclysmic change in the storyline... Make up a way to defeat her (but again, who would want to).


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## RithTheAwakener (Feb 15, 2004)

Well. Me and my friend killed the lady of pain once. There was some weird thing with her powers gone or something funny like that. We were randomly teleported from FR to Planescape, and the lady happened to be walking around... she gave us a menacing look, so my friend (the dwarf) bull rushed her to the ground with a nat20, then I took out a big mean axe, 2 nat20's (meant instant death if someone was hit by 2 nat 20's, kept that rule from 2nd edition)...and off went her head.

The DM was quite sad to see that happen when we were lvl 3... apparently we were supposed to kill her later for some "plot" he kept mumbling about...


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## Kai Lord (Feb 15, 2004)

> How do you defeat the Lady of Pain?



By putting the pain _IN_ her.  _*joins Kingpin and Bullseye for a round of raucous laughter*_


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## Pants (Feb 16, 2004)

RithTheAwakener said:
			
		

> Well. Me and my friend killed the lady of pain once. There was some weird thing with her powers gone or something funny like that. We were randomly teleported from FR to Planescape, and the lady happened to be walking around... she gave us a menacing look, so my friend (the dwarf) bull rushed her to the ground with a nat20, then I took out a big mean axe, 2 nat20's (meant instant death if someone was hit by 2 nat 20's, kept that rule from 2nd edition)...and off went her head.
> 
> The DM was quite sad to see that happen when we were lvl 3... apparently we were supposed to kill her later for some "plot" he kept mumbling about...



That menacing look should have killed you


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## random user (Feb 16, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> In terms of the metaplot, certain “weaknesses” have been exploited in the past, and the rare NPC has seemingly come close to gaining some victory over Her, only to ultimately fail (and sometimes with evidence such attempts were merely part of the Lady’s design). In any case, the Lady should always remain above and beyond the ambitions of the PCs.




If you want to keep to the canon and yet allow the fiends to rule Sigil, the way to do it is not by blunt force but through some sort of agreement.

Who knows what goes on in the mind of the Lady of Pain? And what is time to Her? Maybe there is some hidden agenda going on, and She chooses not to manifest her presence at the apparent takeover of Sigil.

It's possible to come up with some plot device that allows temporary (whether that be 1 day or 1000 years) apparent rule to pass to the fiends.

The key to beating the Lady of Pain is not to overwhelm her, but to convince her that you should be allowed to do whatever you want to do.

At least that's the approach I would take.


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## rounser (Feb 16, 2004)

> The way to defeat an unstatted, apparently invincible plot device such as the Lady of Pain is to get the DM to pit it against another unstatted, apparently invincible plot device



Such as Lord Ao.  Just as the Lady of Pain is Planescape's version of "Teh buck stops here", Lord Ao is Faerun's version.


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## Whitey (Feb 16, 2004)

'Who cares for you?  You're nothing but a pack of cards!'
                                                                    -- Alice, to the Queen of Hearts.

There's always a way.  For the setting or the campaign to be worth playing, there has to be one.  Otherwise, it's not D&D anymore -  it just devolves into childish I'm Rubber, You're Glue situations.
But how?  Take your pick of the following.

_Bag of devouring_ either tossed over her or her tossed into it.  Whatever goes in doesn't come back out.  Period.

_Mirror of opposition_.  Whatever arbitrary, dice-less, stat-less uberness the 'lady' is meets its intractable opposite and is negated.  Either they are simultaneously destroyed or this creates some kind of black hole singularity.  And on that topic:

Paragon Umbral Blot.  The rules for this (and there actually are rules for this) state that whatever it touches is annihilated.  Only the direct intervention of a deity can prevent this, and it seems inferred that the Lady is no deity.  Blots are referred to as 'assassins of the elder gods', which might mean they worked on behalf of those beings, or subsumed them into absolute nothingness.  Or both.  Blots can't even be selected as targets of  effects, as they are not a presence but an absence.  Only three spells in the entire game do anything to one - they're expressly immune to any other effect.

There's lots of ways.  Tuerny's Flask (from AEG) loaded with archfiends.  An epic Spelldancer exploiting their 3E loophole to end up with 'infinity' as root attributes.  Or just the reliable _talisman of pure good_ which allows no save and lasts forever.  The point is that a setting that needs an omnipotent hyperbeing to be *made* to work simply doesn't work in the first place.


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## LGodamus (Feb 16, 2004)

Whitey said:
			
		

> 'Who cares for you?  You're nothing but a pack of cards!'
> -- Alice, to the Queen of Hearts.
> 
> There's always a way.  For the setting or the campaign to be worth playing, there has to be one.  Otherwise, it's not D&D anymore -  it just devolves into childish I'm Rubber, You're Glue situations.
> ...





All of that of course , assumes you will even get to act


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 16, 2004)

Okay, after a 3 day weekend and some time to recharge the old brain cells I think I may have figured out a way to destroy Sigil and possibly the Lady with it if she is indeed a manifistation of Sigil.  Now I'm not even saying that this would be easy but it seems like it would be easier to do than to defeat her in a straight up fight.
From what I've been led to believe everything in creation, even in the planes, is created from the interaction of the inner planes which must all be in balance to a degree.  Too much or too little influence from any of the inner planes and you get a plane that is uninhabitable except by creatures with certain immunities.  SO... that being said, what if the flow of Prime energy from the Positive Energy Plane or Negative energy from the Negative energy plane were increased or reduced?  Could the Lady possibly be "negative energy poisoned" if the flow of positive energy were interrupted for even a short time?


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## reiella (Feb 16, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> Okay, after a 3 day weekend and some time to recharge the old brain cells I think I may have figured out a way to destroy Sigil and possibly the Lady with it if she is indeed a manifistation of Sigil.  Now I'm not even saying that this would be easy but it seems like it would be easier to do than to defeat her in a straight up fight.
> From what I've been led to believe everything in creation, even in the planes, is created from the interaction of the inner planes which must all be in balance to a degree.  Too much or too little influence from any of the inner planes and you get a plane that is uninhabitable except by creatures with certain immunities.  SO... that being said, what if the flow of Prime energy from the Positive Energy Plane or Negative energy from the Negative energy plane were increased or reduced?  Could the Lady possibly be "negative energy poisoned" if the flow of positive energy were interrupted for even a short time?




Well, the means to do such would be on the scale of Limiting the Positive Energy/Negative Energy planes themselves.

As the Lady can open (and close) portals to other planes at will, typically it isn't a situation that's all too possible.


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## Zappo (Feb 16, 2004)

Whitey said:
			
		

> The point is that a setting that needs an omnipotent hyperbeing to be *made* to work simply doesn't work in the first place.



Uhm... either I don't understand something, or this assertion isn't a valid requirement for a working setting. FR and Ao? Dragonlance and the High God? Call of Cthulhu and... uhm, well, lots of beings? Ravenloft and the Dark Powers? Vampire and Cain? Real World (TM) and your religious figure of choice? Paranoia and the Computer?

 IMO, the idea that everything must be defeated is ... well, typical D&D style I guess, but not something I'd agree with.
 Besides, if you remove the Lady, Planescape still "works" (whatever that means), though it would be changed enough that I'd not call it Planescape.


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## JacktheRabbit (Feb 16, 2004)

I am surprised that no one has brought up the 2ed Vecna Lives module where Vecna escapes Ravensloft and goes into Sigil.

That right there is proof that the Lady is not everything that the rumors make her out to be.

My suggestion is the same as I posted in the Demon/Devil alliance thread. Use one of the portals into Sigil to channel divine power of a dead God into her. Once this makes her partially divine Sigil should kick her out since Gods are not supposed to be in Sigil.


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## LcKedovan (Feb 16, 2004)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Here's a better question:
> 
> How can a D&D character destroy something that doesn't have stats??  Answer me THAT my friend!!





Ye gods, I go AWOL for a few months and I almost miss a classic like this!! 

lol

-Will


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## LcKedovan (Feb 16, 2004)

Altamont Ravenard said:
			
		

> What if the Lady of Pain WAS a Ninja?
> 
> On a totally unrelated note, I saw a girl this autumn with a Lady of Pain tatoo on her back. Most incredible.
> 
> AR




That reminds me of a female "aquaintance" I knew who had the symbol of Torment on her leg.

-W.


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## Kilamar (Feb 16, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> ould be easier to do than to defeat her in a straight up fight.
> From what I've been led to believe everything in creation, even in the planes, is created from the interaction of the inner planes which must all be in balance to a degree.  Too much or too little influence from any of the inner planes and you get a plane that is uninhabitable except by creatures with certain immunities.  SO... that being said, what if the flow of Prime energy from the Positive Energy Plane or Negative energy from the Negative energy plane were increased or reduced?  Could the Lady possibly be "negative energy poisoned" if the flow of positive energy were interrupted for even a short time?




Not possible.

The inner planes are the building blocks of the Prime, not the outer planes. 
Apart from that, they are no rules concerning the control of elemental energy. 
If you use this strategy you could also claim the Lady suffocated on a Bretzel, because both options lie totally in control of the DM.



> Use one of the portals into Sigil to channel divine power of a dead God into her. Once this makes her partially divine Sigil should kick her out since Gods are not supposed to be in Sigil.




Who claims that?

Kilamar


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## LGodamus (Feb 16, 2004)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> I am surprised that no one has brought up the 2ed Vecna Lives module where Vecna escapes Ravensloft and goes into Sigil.
> 
> That right there is proof that the Lady is not everything that the rumors make her out to be.
> 
> My suggestion is the same as I posted in the Demon/Devil alliance thread. Use one of the portals into Sigil to channel divine power of a dead God into her. Once this makes her partially divine Sigil should kick her out since Gods are not supposed to be in Sigil.



The module is "Die Vecna,Die" and is has been brought up...not to mention its such a junky module most people who played planescape ignore it anyway, and alot who dont still think is drivel since it is a basic general D&D adventure and breaks the accepted limits of two other seperate campaigns which it has no business doing.


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## Shemeska (Feb 16, 2004)

LGodamus said:
			
		

> The module is "Die Vecna,Die" and is has been brought up...not to mention its such a junky module most people who played planescape ignore it anyway, and alot who dont still think is drivel since it is a basic general D&D adventure and breaks the accepted limits of two other seperate campaigns which it has no business doing.




Many people do consider it apocryphal as it concerns Planescape for a number of reasons. Planewalker did keep a number of things about the module, though not the same reasons behind the events and certainly not the claims it tried to push concerning The Lady. If you still wish to use them in your own game go right ahead, but it came out of left field and attempted to explain away some mysteries that shouldn't be explained (not in a canon product anyways, that should be left up to DM's in most cases, IMHO).

And as far as the idea of pushing negative energy etc: as was pointed out the inner planes are just the building blocks of the prime, the outer planes are solidified belief. Plus, Sigil may or may not be a part of The Outlands. It may be a plane in and of itself, or it may exist outside of the multiverse entirely. Plus, the nature of access into Sigil being what it is, I dare say that scheme would be stillborn from the outset.

And it's never been said that Sigil itself by its nature prevents deities from entering. It's pretty solid that The Lady enforces the no powers in Sigil rule, rather than it being something there naturally that She would be subject to Herself. It may be horrific in terms of the consequences if a deity gained access to Sigil for any period of time, but besides preventing that, I wouldn't say that The Lady would be pushed out of Sigil if she gained a sliver of divinity. In fact you could argue that She wouldn't be affected by worship at all and flays people not out of fear of becoming a god Herself, but simply because it's an affront to a being of Her stature to be worshipped as a mere deity. I won't push that argument myself, but it's a possibility perhaps. This question doesn't really have an answer, and it's left undefined, though its assumed that She isn't a deity herself, something more or something 'different'.


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## JacktheRabbit (Feb 16, 2004)

LGodamus said:
			
		

> The module is "Die Vecna,Die" and is has been brought up...not to mention its such a junky module most people who played planescape ignore it anyway, and alot who dont still think is drivel since it is a basic general D&D adventure and breaks the accepted limits of two other seperate campaigns which it has no business doing.




HOLY CRAP!!!! It broke a rule!!!

Someone get a rules lawyer, someone call the rules police. There is a arrest that needs to be made!!!

Give me a break.


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## JacktheRabbit (Feb 16, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> And it's never been said that Sigil itself by its nature prevents deities from entering. It's pretty solid that The Lady enforces the no powers in Sigil rule, rather than it being something there naturally that She would be subject to Herself. It may be horrific in terms of the consequences if a deity gained access to Sigil for any period of time, but besides preventing that, I wouldn't say that The Lady would be pushed out of Sigil if she gained a sliver of divinity. In fact you could argue that She wouldn't be affected by worship at all and flays people not out of fear of becoming a god Herself, but simply because it's an affront to a being of Her stature to be worshipped as a mere deity. I won't push that argument myself, but it's a possibility perhaps. This question doesn't really have an answer, and it's left undefined, though its assumed that She isn't a deity herself, something more or something 'different'.




That is the joy of remembering this is a game. As long as your decisions are consistent you can make whatever decision you want as a DM. If you want Sigil to be the real power and the Lady to be just the keeper who can get kicked out then fine. 

The problem here is annoying rules lawyers who cannot seem to understand that rules for their campaigns or even those that print are the only way things can happen. If a campaign wants to destroy the Lady and change Sigil then God damn it that is what happens. No amount of fanboy babbling about how "uber and unstoppable" the Lady is will amount to anything.


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## LGodamus (Feb 16, 2004)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> That is the joy of remembering this is a game. As long as your decisions are consistent you can make whatever decision you want as a DM. If you want Sigil to be the real power and the Lady to be just the keeper who can get kicked out then fine.
> 
> The problem here is annoying rules lawyers who cannot seem to understand that rules for their campaigns or even those that print are the only way things can happen. If a campaign wants to destroy the Lady and change Sigil then God damn it that is what happens. No amount of fanboy babbling about how "uber and unstoppable" the Lady is will amount to anything.




Doc that attitude isnt helping anything...IF you would have bothered to read the thread you might have noted he wanted an official way to defeat the lady , not DM handwaving and saying "its my game I do what I want"

SO the so called fanboys , just might seem to have a little more knowledge of things official in nature to the subject of their fandom,eh?


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## JacktheRabbit (Feb 16, 2004)

LGodamus said:
			
		

> Doc that attitude isnt helping anything...IF you would have bothered to read the thread you might have noted he wanted an official way to defeat the lady , not DM handwaving and saying "its my game I do what I want"
> 
> SO the so called fanboys , just might seem to have a little more knowledge of things official in nature to the subject of their fandom,eh?





Except that when I pointed out an "official" module that shows that the Lady is not as powerful as suggested at least one fanboy came out swinging that the Die Vecna Die module was dumb and shouldnt be allowed and broke the rules etc etc etc.

So are we discussing things purely based on what has been written or based on what fanboys have interpreted and used to throw out materia out that does not meet their fanboy standards?


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## LGodamus (Feb 16, 2004)

I wrote that reply........

by the way it doesnt say the module is dumb. I said it is poorly written, most reviewers agreed I do believe. I further said that many people ignore it since it broke cannon of 2 settings....not just planescape but ravenloft as well....I never even said I ignore it, Hell, I have the module . So, your ranting over fanboys has no grounding, you are just using it as an excuse ...since you cannot seem to find something that works for this disussion. If you want to kill the lady in your game do it however you want to, but this discussion is about official ways to kill her. 

Secondly, in "Die Vecna,Die"  Vecna didnt breach the power of the Lady nearly as much as most people think it did...I re-read the module yesterday,...........Vecna  didnt even come close . Although He did have a pretty spiffy plan......


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## JacktheRabbit (Feb 16, 2004)

LGodamus said:
			
		

> I wrote that reply........
> 
> by the way it doesnt say the module is dumb. I said it is poorly written, most reviewers agreed I do believe. I further said that many people ignore it since it broke cannon of 2 settings....not just planescape but ravenloft as well....I never even said I ignore it, Hell, I have the module . So, your ranting over fanboys has no grounding, you are just using it as an excuse ...since you cannot seem to find something that works for this disussion. If you want to kill the lady in your game do it however you want to, but this discussion is about official ways to kill her.
> 
> Secondly, in "Die Vecna,Die"  Vecna didnt breach the power of the Lady nearly as much as most people think it did...I re-read the module yesterday,...........Vecna  didnt even come close . Although He did have a pretty spiffy plan......




He was in Sigil that broke what I would expect to be rule #1 in her book.


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## der_kluge (Feb 16, 2004)

Duh.

All you have to do is get the Lady of Pain to stand by the stairs.

Space Robots will take care of the rest.


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## JacktheRabbit (Feb 16, 2004)

If you want an absolute official way to destroy the Lady there is not one per say. The closest you could come to it is to make her irrelevant. To do this one would have to map out every portal in Sigil. Then travel to the other end of each one and close it up. 

Block one with 50 feet of rock so anyone going through instantly dies. Reroute a magma flow to go over another one. At the same time put a anti-magic field over the portal on the side you close up.

Now travel to and from Sigil becomes impossible. Since portals are the only way in and out you will have effectively destroyed the Lady by making her and her entire city completely pointless. Nowhere in any of the rules does it say that the Lady has power ouside of the city or that she can create new portals. She merely has control over the existing ones.

Would this work? In theory yes. But there are thousands of portals and its not known if all of them are even known about. So it would be impractical. I would take legions of creatures or thousands of years. But then both are a commodity that fiends have at their disposal.


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## jessemock (Feb 16, 2004)

Speak her True Name:  Dolores.



Or has somebody else made this joke already?

Whatever.

_What shall rest of thee then, what remain (when we kill you in D&D), 
      O mystic and sombre Dolores, 
             Our Lady of Pain? _


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## Bendris Noulg (Feb 16, 2004)

RPGNow said:
			
		

> Die Vecna Die! takes the heroes from the Greyhawk campaign to the demiplane of Ravenloft and then to the Planescape city of Sigil. However, none of the material from those settings is required for play.



It's hard to take something as Planescape canon when it was written for folks that don't play Planescape.


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## Carnifex (Feb 16, 2004)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> He was in Sigil that broke what I would expect to be rule #1 in her book.




From what I know of the module... (poossible spoiler, if I've got this even vaguely right)...



Spoiler



wasn't Vecna *not* a god at the time he entered Sigil, but became one once he was in there? Or something like that...


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## SkidAce (Feb 16, 2004)

Bendris Noulg said:
			
		

> It's hard to take something as Planescape canon when it was written for folks that don't play Planescape.




I don't play Greyhawk...I use a homebrew...I used the module...I play Planescape.   

But it's background material does start in Greyhawk so I kinda know what you mean.

The broad statement just disturbed me for some reason.


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## Bendris Noulg (Feb 16, 2004)

SkidAce said:
			
		

> The broad statement just disturbed me for some reason.



It's not to say that Planescape folks can't use it (or even adopt the events as having happened), but the three settings it incorporates are only relevant if the group is actually using all three (at least, for the sake of the adventure).  My point is mostly that, being that you can run the module without _any_ of the settings, one might question how accurate the module actually is to canon, or how "official" the plot twists it presents are.

Also of note is that, from what I recall, it didn't have the setting logo on it (did it have _any_ setting logo?).  Going into the store looking for material on Planescape, there's nothing about the module that would at all grab my attention as a Planescape product.  If I were buying Planescape-only, which is close to the truth at that time, I would have passed it up as "yet another" Vecna adventure.  In short, it's not being marketed or packaged as a Planescape module puts it outside (but alongside and usable with) Planescape.

Besides, I'm waiting for an answer to Carifex's question...  If he's right, then _Die, Vecna, Die_ isn't the only example of such an occurance (the PS module _Harbinger House_ had a similar event, although under an entirely different set of circumstances, and also had a sizable/dramatic example of what Lady worship brings the worshippers).


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## Shemeska (Feb 16, 2004)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> Now travel to and from Sigil becomes impossible. Since portals are the only way in and out you will have effectively destroyed the Lady by making her and her entire city completely pointless. Nowhere in any of the rules does it say that the Lady has power ouside of the city or that she can create new portals. She merely has control over the existing ones.




The Lady has control over the function and location of all portals in and out of Sigil. This includes changing the location of either end of a portal as well. She can make new ones and remove old ones at will.

As far as 'nowhere in the rules' that being printed, I'll refer you to the Tempest of Doors in 'Faction War'. That solidly handles that particular argument.

Irony has it perhaps that I found this thread originally to be a fight against ruleslawyers who couldn't bring themselves to believe that not everything can or should be killed with their +45 godkilling sword of uberness. Some things just exist outside that particular mindset of number munching, hack'n'slash play. Now I find myself being indirectly called a rules lawyer and a fanboy. *chuckle* That's a first for me actually.


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## Shemeska (Feb 16, 2004)

Bendris Noulg said:
			
		

> Also of note is that, from what I recall, it didn't have the setting logo on it (did it have _any_ setting logo?).  Going into the store looking for material on Planescape, there's nothing about the module that would at all grab my attention as a Planescape product.  If I were buying Planescape-only, which is close to the truth at that time, I would have passed it up as "yet another" Vecna adventure.  In short, it's not being marketed or packaged as a Planescape module puts it outside (but alongside and usable with) Planescape.
> 
> Besides, I'm waiting for an answer to Carifex's question...  If he's right, then _Die, Vecna, Die_ isn't the only example of such an occurance (the PS module _Harbinger House_ had a similar event, although under an entirely different set of circumstances, and also had a sizable/dramatic example of what Lady worship brings the worshippers).




No, 'Die Vecna Die' didn't have the Planescape logo, just the generic 2e DnD logo. This, among the continuity issues was one of the reasons why Planewalker was in a difficult position regarding using that module fully, using it modified (as we did), or not using it at all.

Regarding 'Harbinger House', damn fine module. Another example of a perceived loophole in The Lady's laws. You cannot enter Sigil as a god, however you can ascend to deityhood while inside the city. In the case of the module someone did just that. They also got shunted out the nearest portal as soon as that happened. However they were not killed, which opens up some questions certainly.

The Focrux artifact in the module was, it seems, allowed to exist in some sense within Sigil since the Dabus had a role in giving the Godsmen stewardship over the house and control over the artifact within it. At the end of the module, the nature if the house, and the artifact were abused by another set of persons and it was destroyed. The moment the artifact was destroyed, several folks got flayed and a newly risen deity was booted from the city. 

You might of course say that a deity inside Harbinger house would still be blocked from entering the rest of the city at large, or that the events of the module were already known to happen, and were allowed to happen the way they did. 'Faction War' certainly pins down that The Lady is aware of events in Sigil in a way that transcends the normal notions of time and space, allowing Her to set up past and future events to fall into desired outcomes. This is perhaps alluded to again within 'Doors to the Unknown'.

The Focrux also was of unknown origin, and is a thorny question about both its own power and makers, as well as the nature of The Lady. We don't know who made it, why, or how old it has been there. Ancient is the best guess I can put forwards, but lots of open questions there. Very fun module.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 16, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> Irony has it perhaps that I found this thread originally to be a fight against ruleslawyers who couldn't bring themselves to believe that not everything can or should be killed with their +45 godkilling sword of uberness. Some things just exist outside that particular mindset of number munching, hack'n'slash play. Now I find myself being indirectly called a rules lawyer and a fanboy. *chuckle* That's a first for me actually.




Actually the discussion was to tap the knowledge of the ENWorld community to find out if there was a rules supported way to defeat the Lady of Pain to satisfy rules lawyers in my group.  I don't want my players to go home grumbling that their DM stomped all over a setting that they hold dear in their hearts but I also like the idea of the Planar Armageddon.  The same issue has evidenced itself in the failing popularity of Dragonlance as too many players feel like the setting MUST stay faithful to the novels and get ticked off if the DM decides to veer from the main plotline by too much.


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## Orius (Feb 16, 2004)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> That is the joy of remembering this is a game. As long as your decisions are consistent you can make whatever decision you want as a DM. If you want Sigil to be the real power and the Lady to be just the keeper who can get kicked out then fine.
> 
> The problem here is annoying rules lawyers who cannot seem to understand that rules for their campaigns or even those that print are the only way things can happen. If a campaign wants to destroy the Lady and change Sigil then God damn it that is what happens. No amount of fanboy babbling about how "uber and unstoppable" the Lady is will amount to anything.




True enough.  This started with the D&D Armageddon thread, with the idea of Sigil falling under siege.  If a DM wants to that, fine.  It's the DM's job to run the campaign.

Like people said, the Lady of Pain is there to maintain a certain amount of internal campaign logic.  If you've got a city that has portals to pretty much anywhere in existance, then why hasn't a god, the fiends, or any other very powerful being taken it over already?  That's really the purpose of the Lady, and that's why Planescape fans start "babbling" about her.   If you're not playing a standard Planescape game, or any sort of D&D setting which doesn't use Sigil in it's cosmology, then do whatever you want.


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## JacktheRabbit (Feb 16, 2004)

Orius said:
			
		

> True enough.  This started with the D&D Armageddon thread, with the idea of Sigil falling under siege.  If a DM wants to that, fine.  It's the DM's job to run the campaign.
> 
> Like people said, the Lady of Pain is there to maintain a certain amount of internal campaign logic.  If you've got a city that has portals to pretty much anywhere in existance, then why hasn't a god, the fiends, or any other very powerful being taken it over already?  That's really the purpose of the Lady, and that's why Planescape fans start "babbling" about her.   If you're not playing a standard Planescape game, or any sort of D&D setting which doesn't use Sigil in it's cosmology, then do whatever you want.




Just reminds me of a phrase:

"You only say never because no one ever has."

Just because no one has ever hurt the Lady or thrown her out or outfoxed her before doesnt mean it cannot happen. It just means it has not happened YET.


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## Pants (Feb 16, 2004)

Bendris Noulg said:
			
		

> Also of note is that, from what I recall, it didn't have the setting logo on it (did it have _any_ setting logo?).  Going into the store looking for material on Planescape, there's nothing about the module that would at all grab my attention as a Planescape product.  If I were buying Planescape-only, which is close to the truth at that time, I would have passed it up as "yet another" Vecna adventure.  In short, it's not being marketed or packaged as a Planescape module puts it outside (but alongside and usable with) Planescape.



Considering that back then ALL of the various planes of existence were connected, it makes perfect sense.  It is NOT a PlaneScape adventure, neither is it a Ravenloft adventure, but a conglomeration.  Why should it have the 'Planescape seal of approval' then?  If the module happened to take thr group on a short stint through the Dalelands, should it also have the 'FR seal of approval' when FR is only used briefly?  I find it hard to justify ignoring canon (especially when we are having a discussion about canonical information) just because it didn't say 'Planescape' on the box.
Fact is, no matter how close Vecna got is irrevelent, the important matter is that he DID do it, thus it is possible from a 'canon' standpoint.  



			
				Orius said:
			
		

> Like people said, the Lady of Pain is there to maintain a certain amount of internal campaign logic.  If you've got a city that has portals to pretty much anywhere in existance, then why hasn't a god, the fiends, or any other very powerful being taken it over already?  That's really the purpose of the Lady, and that's why Planescape fans start "babbling" about her.   If you're not playing a standard Planescape game, or any sort of D&D setting which doesn't use Sigil in it's cosmology, then do whatever you want.



Or even if you are playing Planescape, then do whatever you want, because 'canon' is only for the masses of the internet to argue over and not necessarily for YOUR campaign.


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## Trickstergod (Feb 16, 2004)

Orius said:
			
		

> Like people said, the Lady of Pain is there to maintain a certain amount of internal campaign logic.  If you've got a city that has portals to pretty much anywhere in existance, then why hasn't a god, the fiends, or any other very powerful being taken it over already?  That's really the purpose of the Lady, and that's why Planescape fans start "babbling" about her.   If you're not playing a standard Planescape game, or any sort of D&D setting which doesn't use Sigil in it's cosmology, then do whatever you want.




And notably, a number of folk have already offered up reasons that take into account the "Why hasn't this already happened?" factor. That some folk still choose to disregard out of hand, which is when the line between fan and fanboy is crossed.


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## Toras (Feb 16, 2004)

Its not honestly that I am a Lady Fan boy, as I am usually the first go for the throat of Unstoppable Beings on general principal.

The Lady exists to enforce a neutral zone, on place in all the multiverse were all beings are essentially free of the massive external forces that could normally crush there will.  This is good for normal planescape, necessary for lower level adventurers to even be able to interact with the setting as more than an errand boy for there respective powers.  

Something that cannot be stressed enough is that MANY Millenia have passed with this situation as it is.  And even with the Blood War going on, massive amounts of effort would have been put into capturing what has to be the most strategically important point in the multiverse, despite the tactial disadvantages of occupation. 

With all of this effort, it would take a massive, complicated, and more importantly time-specific event to succeed where so much has failed.
Rather than trying to force a horde offensive, making some appeal to the "rules" within Sigil, or trying to seal the portals (they re open in random locations), might I suggest an alternative. (My understanding is not perfect so bare with me)

1. The Demons have been attempting to recreate Sigil down the very last detail, in the hopes it will grant them some advantage.
2. With the Blood Alliance, they now have the aid of the other fiendish races in this effort.  
3. Using the combined efforts of the three Fiendish races, they are able to succeed, even filling Sigil with duplicates of its residents.

This duplicate could be used in vast amounts of sympathetic magic, perhaps aided by the power of Fiendish Lords, and huge sacrifices in terms of souls.  
Perhaps it gains similar properties under fiendish control, or perhaps it provides a link to strike at her directly.


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## Bendris Noulg (Feb 16, 2004)

Pants said:
			
		

> If the module happened to take thr group on a short stint through the Dalelands, should it also have the 'FR seal of approval' when FR is only used briefly?



Yes.  Ask any Dragonlance fan where Soth is, and then ask a Ravenloft fan.  A "seal of approval" is the difference between someone's idea for an adventure and the actual conditions of a setting.

Want some real fun?  Read the Lucas Movies vs Books debate Star Wars players have from time to time...  Those get really interesting.



> I find it hard to justify ignoring canon (especially when we are having a discussion about canonical information) just because it didn't say 'Planescape' on the box.



Who says it's canon?  The licensed site bringing Planescape into 3E says it isn't, and ignoring non-canon is rather easy (only _slightly_ easier than ignoring actual canon).



> Fact is, no matter how close Vecna got is irrevelent, the important matter is that he DID do it, thus it is possible from a 'canon' standpoint.



Until someone with the module kicks out the answer of when Vecna gained godhood (before or after reaching Sigil), whether or not he did infact break canon is still in the air.  So, no, it's not possible from a canon standpoint.

1. Not a Planescape Product.
2. Not acknowledged by the current source of official canon (and IIRC only acknowledged by the module itself).
3. Still not even sure if the events in the module broke canon or not.

Sure, you and anyone else can officialize it for your home games, but don't assume that doing so makes it canon.

And just for the anti-canon patrol: Really, I break from canon all the time, so take you petty little insults somewhere else, like the grade school play yard where it belongs.  When the question is asked, "is this canon?", the answer is yes or no.  When the question is, "can I change this?", the answer is _always_ yes.  The futility of this discussion is based on that fact, however: How any one person would do it can range from straight stats (beat her to a pulp like any other monster) to metaphysical (dowse her with pollen from a golden lotus that only fed on fresh winter melt plucked from a world not on any SpellJammer map and completely devoid of portals).  Perhaps, if the question was "How would you _make_ the Lady of Pain defeatable?", then the imagination fest could begin.  But as the question is, "How _do_ you defeat the Lady of Pain?", the answer is that you can't.

Consequently, if the question really is about changing the conditions (Kirk would be proud), then doesn't this actually go to House Rules?


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## Vargo (Feb 16, 2004)

Bah, you want to get some real fun?

Let the combined forces of Darkness expel the Lady of Pain from Sigil.  Let everybody think she's dead.  Run your campaign.

Then it turns out that everything (including the union of the forces of Darkness) is just a plot by the Lady of Pain to clean some houses and restore a little balance, through the players.  Remember, this IS the Lady of Pain we're talking about, who's been around for millenia.  She doesn't think in terms of minutes, hours, decades - She thinks in terms of goals, no matter how long the goal might take to achieve.

Maybe She feels that the masses have become too complacent, rely on her too much for their safety, and ending the blood war is one way to send a Message (In Big Flaming Letters) to the rest of the cosmology that Sometimes Things Don't Work The Way They Always Have.

Or maybe the reason that nobody has ever successfully killed the Lady of Pain is that anybody who actually succeeds BECOMES the Lady of Pain - the position does not grant invulnerability, but instead imprisons the victor in a role for all eternity, until somebody can replace them - and the current Lady of Pain is trying to commit suicide...


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## Wee Jas (Feb 17, 2004)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> How can you defeat a mountain?  How can you battle a ray of moonlight?  How can you destroy the sky?  She is bigger than a god, bigger than a universe.  Run, you fool, run -- she's right behind you!




...such is Mango.

Oh c'mon that was torn from the script of Saturday Night Live!


----------



## Pants (Feb 17, 2004)

Bendris Noulg said:
			
		

> Yes.  Ask any Dragonlance fan where Soth is, and then ask a Ravenloft fan.  A "seal of approval" is the difference between someone's idea for an adventure and the actual conditions of a setting.



So, in theory, _Die, Vecna Die_ should have the Greyhawk, Ravenloft, and PlaneScape names on it just so that it's relevent to those worlds?  Seems nitpicky to me.



> Want some real fun?  Read the Lucas Movies vs Books debate Star Wars players have from time to time...  Those get really interesting.



I haven't read the books, so no comment.



> Who says it's canon?



Who says it isn't canon?  Did TSR and WotC come out and say 'IGNORE THE EVENTS OF DIE VECNA DIE?'  Not that I know of.



> *
> The licensed site bringing Planescape into 3E says it isn't, and ignoring non-canon is rather easy (only slightly easier than ignoring actual canon).*



*
As it is, it's really only a big, nice informative fansite.




			Until someone with the module kicks out the answer of when Vecna gained godhood (before or after reaching Sigil), whether or not he did infact break canon is still in the air.
		
Click to expand...


He gained godhood after breaking into Sigil.  He found a loophole and exploited it.  Go Vecna.  Although, whether the Lady would fix the loophole is up to the DM as there is nothing that addresses this issue that has been printed.




			So, no, it's not possible from a canon standpoint.
		
Click to expand...


Unless you gain your godhood AFTER you enter into Sigil, then yes it is.  Alternatively, if you force the Lady to use her full power and Sigil is destroyed, then that is also a canonical way of achieving the same effect.  Sigil = gone.  




			2. Not acknowledged by the current source of official canon (and IIRC only acknowledged by the module itself).
		
Click to expand...


That's because there were no more PS products being published at the time.  The Manual of the Planes mentions nothing of the events in Die Vecna Die, it also fails to mention a lot of other details that made PS so distinctive.  Does that mean that all of those little ideas and rumors in PS are not 'canon' anymore?  Of course not.
And geez, for the amount of garbage that WotC gets for ignoring little pieces of canon, you'd think ignoring an entire module would result in a spontaneous combustion of the thread.  But nope... doesn't happen.




			3. Still not even sure if the events in the module broke canon or not.
		
Click to expand...


A more appropriate phrase would say that it 'bended canon.'
In Planescape, very little is known about the Lady at all.  There are rumors, yes?  But whenever a new product comes along and seems to offer a new insight into something, it gets thrown into 'the this isn't canon' category.




			Sure, you and anyone else can officialize it for your home games, but don't assume that doing so makes it canon.
		
Click to expand...


If it's been printed by the parent company, it's canon.




			And just for the anti-canon patrol: Really, I break from canon all the time, so take you petty little insults somewhere else, like the grade school play yard where it belongs.  When the question is asked, "is this canon?", the answer is yes or no.  When the question is, "can I change this?", the answer is always yes.  The futility of this discussion is based on that fact, however: How any one person would do it can range from straight stats (beat her to a pulp like any other monster) to metaphysical (dowse her with pollen from a golden lotus that only fed on fresh winter melt plucked from a world not on any SpellJammer map and completely devoid of portals).  Perhaps, if the question was "How would you make the Lady of Pain defeatable?", then the imagination fest could begin.  But as the question is, "How do you defeat the Lady of Pain?", the answer is that you can't.
		
Click to expand...


Agreed.  But this discussion seems to have evolved into a 'what makes canon canon?' discussion.*


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## Bendris Noulg (Feb 17, 2004)

Pants said:
			
		

> So, in theory, _Die, Vecna Die_ should have the Greyhawk, Ravenloft, and PlaneScape names on it just so that it's relevent to those worlds? Seems nitpicky to me.



Not really.  Just a question of which product line it is.  While you view it as all three, I view it as none of the above.



> I haven't read the books, so no comment.



Neither have I, but I'm familiar with some of the authors...

Of course, that's why I haven't read them.



> Who says it isn't canon? Did TSR and WotC come out and say 'IGNORE THE EVENTS OF DIE VECNA DIE?' Not that I know of.



No, but the people licensed to do the "official" 3E conversion seem to be.



> As it is, it's really only a big, nice informative fansite.



That's how you wish to view it, then do so.  Legally, however, they have a license that says otherwise.



> He gained godhood after breaking into Sigil.



End of subject.



> He found a loophole and exploited it. Go Vecna. Although, whether the Lady would fix the loophole is up to the DM as there is nothing that addresses this issue that has been printed.



Being that there are two sources making ascention _within_ Sigil possible, I'd say the only thing that's been proven is that it is _possible_ to ascend in Sigil.

Neither deities "born" in Sigil remained very long.



> Unless you gain your godhood AFTER you enter into Sigil, then yes it is.



No, it's not.  The question is: Can a god enter Sigil?  Two beings ascending to godhood while in Sigil does not canonize gods _entering_ Sigil.

It does canonize them not staying very long, though.



> Alternatively, if you force the Lady to use her full power and Sigil is destroyed, then that is also a canonical way of achieving the same effect. Sigil = gone.



The question of LoP's full power is open to debate.  Does she have power?  Is she simply the will of the city itself?  Is she a divine being that uses Sigil the way other divine beings use worshippers?

She's an enigma.  An ideal.  A "grand mystery".



> That's because there were no more PS products being published at the time. The Manual of the Planes mentions nothing of the events in Die Vecna Die, it also fails to mention a lot of other details that made PS so distinctive. Does that mean that all of those little ideas and rumors in PS are not 'canon' anymore? Of course not.



The folks at WotC have directly stated that MotP _is not_ Planescape.  At best, it's the 1E MotP updated to 3E with some landmark PS elements.

You'll find Planescape at Planewalker.com.



> And geez, for the amount of garbage that WotC gets for ignoring little pieces of canon, you'd think ignoring an entire module would result in a spontaneous combustion of the thread. But nope... doesn't happen.



I don't care what WotC ignores or doesn't ignore.  Hell, I pretty much ignore their definition of D&D.



> A more appropriate phrase would say that it 'bended canon.'
> In Planescape, very little is known about the Lady at all. There are rumors, yes? But whenever a new product comes along and seems to offer a new insight into something, it gets thrown into 'the this isn't canon' category.



Guess why.



> If it's been printed by the parent company, it's canon.



Nope.  At least, if you are still trying to convince yourself that deific ascention _within_ Sigil = deities _entering_ sigil, it isn't.



> Agreed. But this discussion seems to have evolved into a 'what makes canon canon?' discussion.



Give it another 2-3 days; The argument will likely turn to whether or not the Lady hyrbidized Razorvine herself.

PS: Someone remind me; Was Die Vecky Die one of those "apocolyptic" dungeons they did?


----------



## Shemeska (Feb 17, 2004)

Bendris Noulg said:
			
		

> PS: Someone remind me; Was Die Vecky Die one of those "apocolyptic" dungeons they did?




There's talk that DVD was intended to usher in the 3e cosmology since at the end of the module Vecna's actions do some severe damage to the structure of the planes and The Lady speaks with her own voice and singlehandedly reorders them.

Also, Planewalker's viewpoint on DVD doesn't reject the module outright. We're using it in part, just altering the reasons for some of the events, and specifically tossing out the attempted defining of Her Serenity at the end of the module. That only dispels the setting's main mystery and removes options for DMs.

And lest anyone think I'm too attached to canon and rules, I've broken a number of them in my own campaign already, seriously so. It's just taken me a year and a half of plotline to set it all up. I don't like to do anything halfassed or without background (even if I don't give that background immediately, it's there).


----------



## Saeviomagy (Feb 17, 2004)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Another alternative way is to simply use technology - it's not muted at all.  epic-level fighters with explosives could eventually chip away enough of the Spire for it to topple.  Plus, they'll be the best equipped to deal with pesky interlopers - according to MotP, few divine powers even work near the spire, so certainly no mortal magic would.  Only a major god could stop you, and even then I'd rule their powers severly limited - as per the rules laid out in MotP.



There's one problem - if the spire is truly infinitely tall, then it will never topple, no matter what you do to the base. In order for the angle that the spire makes at the base to cease to be zero, the tip would have to travel an infinite distance, which it will never do...


> Note, destoying the Spire _would_ cause a major cataclysm, since it's supposedly the axis of the planes.




Major cataclysms are always SO much fun though!


----------



## rounser (Feb 17, 2004)

So if 3E is Vecna's fault, which NPC is responsible for 3.5E?


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## Shemeska (Feb 17, 2004)

rounser said:
			
		

> So if 3E is Vecna's fault, which NPC is responsible for 3.5E?




Chourst the Slaadi Lord of Randomness?


----------



## fba827 (Feb 17, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> Okay from what I've heard the Lady of Pain is supposed to be pretty much Omnipotent.  No god, artifact, or entity of any kind can hurt her much less destroy her.  I refuse to believe that.  There has got to be a way.  Please submit your ideas and hopefully some of the Planescape Sages will offer their own guidance.




Leave it to someone from the Washington D.C. metro area to want to destroy the very fabric of reality on another plane 



(it's a joke. I'm from here too   )


----------



## Felon (Feb 17, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> Good call!  If the Fiends are trying to invade sigil they could torture all the petitioners to begin worshiping her as a god.  She'd have to go to the Abyss or to the Nine Hells to stop them and I don't see that happening.  Now we just need a rebuttal.




Well, I guess I'll oblige 

The "forced worship" idea is actually what the original poster of that armageddon thread came up with. Of course, on face value that's a tad asinine. Prayer under duress is just lip service, with no genuine faith involved. If you're not devoted to your would-be deity, it's not worship, and if you're truly devoted then you're willing to endure a little thing like a red-hot poker up the bottom. It's a bit of a catch-22.

And that's putting aside the questionable matter of suggesting that prayers alone can impart deityhood--especially if the individual in question doesn't desire such a status. Boy, that'd be a real cool prank for Ted the Cobbler to play on Bill the Bootblack...

_"Where am I? What's with all these damn clouds? Stop pushing me down into this throne! Hey, who's this clown sitting at my right hand? What do you mean I gotta pick a minimum of two domains? Ted, I'm sooo gonna get you for this!"_

Of course, the joke's ultimately on Ted since worship is a two-way street. If Ted's able to establish a divine channel to Bill with his worship, then Bill can use that same conduit to locate and send a smiting to Ted's ass, post-haste.



			
				DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> My suggestion is the same as I posted in the Demon/Devil alliance thread. Use one of the portals into Sigil to channel divine power of a dead God into her. Once this makes her partially divine Sigil should kick her out since Gods are not supposed to be in Sigil.




Says who? Oh, her. Sounds like a dicey plan at best 

Your best bet? Psychology. Get her to do something patently self-destructive. Of course, that may wipe out the rest of the cosmos, but hey no plan is perfect.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 17, 2004)

Bendris Noulg said:
			
		

> Yes.  Ask any Dragonlance fan where Soth is, and then ask a Ravenloft fan.




That is easy to answer... he is back on Krynn.  The Dark Powers kicked him out.


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## Bendris Noulg (Feb 17, 2004)

Thought people were complaining that Soth was MIA?

(Not that I follow/ed either setting that closely, I just seem to remember a few "Where's Soth?" threads a short time after 3E came out...)


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## Pants (Feb 17, 2004)

Bendris Noulg said:
			
		

> No, but the people licensed to do the "official" 3E conversion seem to be.
> 
> That's how you wish to view it, then do so.  Legally, however, they have a license that says otherwise.



Interesting, I don't know such.



> Being that there are two sources making ascention _within_ Sigil possible, I'd say the only thing that's been proven is that it is _possible_ to ascend in Sigil.



Exactly.



> No, it's not.  The question is: Can a god enter Sigil?  Two beings ascending to godhood while in Sigil does not canonize gods _entering_ Sigil.



No, but it *is* a loophole that both Aoskar and Vecna used.  Aoskar ended up the worse, while Vecna... he got banished somewhere I think, but only with the PC's help.



> The question of LoP's full power is open to debate.  Does she have power?  Is she simply the will of the city itself?  Is she a divine being that uses Sigil the way other divine beings use worshippers?



Obviously, she does have some power.  The question is how does she get it and how much does she have?  Even with DVD, the question is still open to interpretation, the module sheds only a little more light on the subject.



> She's an enigma.  An ideal.  A "grand mystery".



She still is.  I don't know how DVD destroys her enigmatic nature.  Care to explain?



> The folks at WotC have directly stated that MotP _is not_ Planescape.  At best, it's the 1E MotP updated to 3E with some landmark PS elements.



So?  It contains enough Planescape references to be 'Planescape' enough for me.  Obviously we have very different ideas of canon information here.



> I don't care what WotC ignores or doesn't ignore.  Hell, I pretty much ignore their definition of D&D.



Good for you.



> Nope.  At least, if you are still trying to convince yourself that deific ascention _within_ Sigil = deities _entering_ sigil, it isn't.



I never said that.  I said Vecna exploited a loophole ie becoming a deity inside Sigil.



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> The "forced worship" idea is actually what the original poster of that armageddon thread came up with. Of course, on face value that's a tad asinine. Prayer under duress is just lip service, with no genuine faith involved. If you're not devoted to your would-be deity, it's not worship, and if you're truly devoted then you're willing to endure a little thing like a red-hot poker up the bottom. It's a bit of a catch-22.



I'm pretty sure that some Archdevils and Demon Princes working together could come up with a way to spread a religion of the Lady across the planes.  At the very least, they could do that.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 17, 2004)

Pants said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure that some Archdevils and Demon Princes working together could come up with a way to spread a religion of the Lady across the planes.  At the very least, they could do that.




The greatest trick the devil ever accomplished was to convince the world that he doesn't exist.


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## herald (Feb 17, 2004)

LGodamus said:
			
		

> The module is "Die Vecna,Die" and is has been brought up...not to mention its such a junky module most people who played planescape ignore it anyway, and alot who dont still think is drivel since it is a basic general D&D adventure and breaks the accepted limits of two other seperate campaigns which it has no business doing.




What a load of garbage.

Planescape hijacked way to may cosmologies. DVD was the best way to divorce the shotgun marriage of all those game worlds.


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## Bendris Noulg (Feb 17, 2004)

Pants said:
			
		

> <snip>Interesting, I don't know such.
> No, but it *is* a loophole that both Aoskar and Vecna used. Aoskar ended up the worse, while Vecna... he got banished somewhere I think, but only with the PC's help.
> 
> <snip>
> ...



But it's _not_ a loophole.

Gods cannot enter Sigil *does not =* Gods cannot be in Sigil.

If no God _entered_ Sigil, there's no actual loophole.



> <snip>Obviously, she does have some power. The question is how does she get it and how much does she have? Even with DVD, the question is still open to interpretation, the module sheds only a little more light on the subject.
> 
> She still is. I don't know how DVD destroys her enigmatic nature. Care to explain?



Not saying it did.  I'm saying that making her defeatable does.



> So? It contains enough Planescape references to be 'Planescape' enough for me. Obviously we have very different ideas of canon information here.



"Planescape _enough_" shows my opinion.  Hormel Chili is "chili enough", after all.



> Good for you.



Nifty, eh?



> I'm pretty sure that some Archdevils and Demon Princes working together could come up with a way to spread a religion of the Lady across the planes. At the very least, they could do that.



Hmmm...  Start the religion on a couple score of Prime Worlds and then hold a mass pilgrimage to the "holy city" ala Jonestown?  That's a thought...


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## Bendris Noulg (Feb 17, 2004)

herald said:
			
		

> Planescape hijacked way to may cosmologies.



There was only one cosmology at the time.

If anything, it made sense out of the drop-everything-in manner which the planes were developed to begin with.


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## herald (Feb 17, 2004)

Bendris Noulg said:
			
		

> Yes.  Ask any Dragonlance fan where Soth is, and then ask a Ravenloft fan.  A "seal of approval" is the difference between someone's idea for an adventure and the actual conditions of a setting




Soth escaped Ravenloft. He's home again.   



			
				Bendris Noulg said:
			
		

> Want some real fun?  Read the Lucas Movies vs Books debate Star Wars players have from time to time...  Those get really interesting.




not relevant. Not a apples to apples comparison. What we are talking about at adventures. They make up the Canon.




			
				Bendris Noulg said:
			
		

> Who says it's canon?  The licensed site bringing Planescape into 3E says it isn't, and ignoring non-canon is rather easy (only _slightly_ easier than ignoring actual canon).[/QOUTE]
> 
> WOTC does, And as the adventure was a gateway to start again with 3ed rules. It was the canon explination to explain why ther is a Great Wheel for Greyhawk and a "Tree" for Forgotten Realms. Metaphysically there is no connection between them unless you allow it to happen through the Shadow Plane optional rule. Not only do you have the DVD to call on for this, but the facts are backed up in the 3e Dieties and Demi-gods and the 3e Forgotten Realm book.
> 
> ...


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## herald (Feb 17, 2004)

Bendris Noulg said:
			
		

> There was only one cosmology at the time.
> 
> If anything, it made sense out of the drop-everything-in manner which the planes were developed to begin with.





No there were several cosmologies. There is no reason to have Viking and Eygption cosmologies mixed together. That's just insulting. Have some respect for some cultures.


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## Bendris Noulg (Feb 17, 2004)

herald said:
			
		

> No there were several cosmologies. There is no reason to have Viking and Eygption cosmologies mixed together. That's just insulting. Have some respect for some cultures.



You, dear sir, need to get a look at the 1E Deities & Demigods and 1E Manual of the Planes: There was only 1 D&D cosmology and all of what you refer to was already part of it.  Planescape was built ontop of (and thereby made sense out of) what had already been done with the planes.

Your complaint _is_ half-valid (although I'm sure gaming, not being disrespectful, was the ultimate goal); Blaming Planescape for it only shows that you don't know when the issue really started.


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## Bendris Noulg (Feb 17, 2004)

Here, I think, is the root of it...



> WOTC does, And as the adventure was a gateway to start again with 3ed rules. It was the canon explination to explain why ther is a Great Wheel for Greyhawk and a "Tree" for Forgotten Realms. Metaphysically there is no connection between them unless you allow it to happen through the Shadow Plane optional rule. Not only do you have the DVD to call on for this, but the facts are backed up in the 3e Dieties and Demi-gods and the 3e Forgotten Realm book.



Do both of these actually state that the planes were different, or are they just different now?  And, more importantly, has the cosmology changed for Planewalker?



			
				herald said:
			
		

> Soth escaped Ravenloft. He's home again.



Good.  While I was never a fan of either setting, it just felt like his inclusion was more a shoe-horning to attract part of the DL customer base.  I mostly disected the setting for rule variants, though, so maybe it never grew on me.



> not relevant. Not a apples to apples comparison. What we are talking about at adventures. They make up the Canon.



See Planewalker question above...



> The point of house games is besides the point. The module happened like it or not. It is writen very well for 2e and it really sets up the changes for 3e quite well.



A 3E that doesn't include Planescape in its original form aside from Planewalker's status.



> The fact is "Pulling a Vecna" maybe the only way to get the Lady of Pain. She will not dirrectly intervene with him so she must not have to power to do anything against him. Should the players fail to do anything agasinst him, SHe will at the last possible moment let in 4-5 Demi-gods in to try and stop him.



Did it?  The Great Wheel as presented in MotP shows itself to be missing most of Planescape's trademark features (particularly, non-Greyhawk deities and their dominions), and the way that most of the planes "behave" is different.  If the result is something that isn't Planescape (and Planescape itself continues forth unconcerned), how relevant is it as canon?


----------



## herald (Feb 17, 2004)

Bendris Noulg said:
			
		

> You, dear sir, need to get a look at the 1E Deities & Demigods and 1E Manual of the Planes: There was only 1 D&D cosmology and all of what you refer to was already part of it.  Planescape was built ontop of (and thereby made sense out of) what had already been done with the planes.
> 
> Your complaint _is_ half-valid (although I'm sure gaming, not being disrespectful, was the ultimate goal); Blaming Planescape for it only shows that you don't know when the issue really started.




Actually it started back when Gary decided that he would have players go out and assassinate Viking dieties. But that was Oe before 1e. But the Dieties and Demi-Gods assumed that you would use that book for home brew and you plugged in what you wanted. By the time 2e had rolled around, the Dieties from Earth had been removed and we had the Dieties from the Greyhawk boxed set and the Greyhawk Adventures book. Planescape pushed all the Dieties back into one melting pot again.

So I feel that part of Planescape was objectionable. I like just about everything else. Infact I feel that the Manual of the Planes makes the situation much more interesting. By using the optional rule that the only way to travel between Fearun and Oerth is the Shadow Plane gives DM's the ability to create other outposts like Sigil.


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## Bendris Noulg (Feb 17, 2004)

herald said:
			
		

> Actually it started back when Gary decided that he would have players go out and assassinate Viking dieties.



Ick.



> But that was Oe before 1e. But the Dieties and Demi-Gods assumed that you would use that book for home brew and you plugged in what you wanted. By the time 2e had rolled around, the Dieties from Earth had been removed and we had the Dieties from the Greyhawk boxed set and the Greyhawk Adventures book.



And, of course, Dragonlace Adventures and Forgotten Realms adventures...  Of course, that already set the tone for "they're all there".



> Planescape pushed all the Dieties back into one melting pot again.



Perhaps...  I never got the 2E Legends & Lore.  Did that predate Planescape?

Also, the Outer Planes Monstrous Appendix included criters that possessed specific "flavors", many of which could be attributed to an Earth culture.



> So I feel that part of Planescape was objectionable. I like just about everything else. Infact I feel that the Manual of the Planes makes the situation much more interesting.



To a degree, I'd agree.  At least, I didn't find it objectionable so much as kinda wonky.  Never said it wasn't there, but pretty much stuck to locations made on my own (or locations not specifically tied to something else historically or mythologically).

(Honestly, this was my main problem with Ravenloft...  A few too many over-used ideas.)



> By using the optional rule that the only way to travel between Fearun and Oerth is the Shadow Plane gives DM's the ability to create other outposts like Sigil.



That I'd like to see...  (Especially since I use the Plane of Shadow as "the" way to get around...)


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## herald (Feb 17, 2004)

Bendris Noulg said:
			
		

> Here, I think, is the root of it...
> 
> Do both of these actually state that the planes were different, or are they just different now?  And, more importantly, has the cosmology changed for Planewalker?





WOTC has infatically stated that the Cosmologies has been, and forever seperated. this news came out before the release of the Forgotten Realms Hardback for 3e. So indeed there has been a divorce of the game worlds. The Gods, Demons and Devils that share names are not one and the same. The are differant. 




			
				Bendris Noulg said:
			
		

> Did it?  The Great Wheel as presented in MotP shows itself to be missing most of Planescape's trademark features (particularly, non-Greyhawk deities and their dominions), and the way that most of the planes "behave" is different.  If the result is something that isn't Planescape (and Planescape itself continues forth unconcerned), how relevant is it as canon?




Canon on the local level is not very important. You game will run however you expect it to. But adventures written with canon in mind affect products that come out in the future. There is a book comming out called a Players guide to the Planes, and while it doesn't give great detail on Sigil, it does mention it. I'm not sure if it came out here or on the WOTC boards or not, but that information was leaked out by the writers. 

I expect that more material will come out in the future that will involve more of the Planescape Game setting, but only after they feel that they can more fully explore the setting in the fashion that they are doing now. (Single hardbacks and the like.)


----------



## herald (Feb 17, 2004)

Bendris Noulg said:
			
		

> Ick.
> 
> And, of course, Dragonlace Adventures and Forgotten Realms adventures...  Of course, that already set the tone for "they're all there".




Ah, but here is the rub, Dragonlance never fit into the Great Wheel. For that matter the highst level you could get to was 18th level. 

As I remember, there was just three planes. (I could be wrong about that.)

You can thank Tracy Hickman for that. He put his foot down and got his way. To this day, I haven't seen anything in Planescape that pulls from Dragonlance.


----------



## Bendris Noulg (Feb 17, 2004)

herald said:
			
		

> WOTC has infatically stated that the Cosmologies has been, and forever seperated. this news came out before the release of the Forgotten Realms Hardback for 3e. So indeed there has been a divorce of the game worlds. The Gods, Demons and Devils that share names are not one and the same. The are differant.



Not really what I'm asking...

In either of the books, does the history/fluff present the events in DVD as actually happening, or does the material claim to have always been that way?

Reason being that if the current Great Wheel set up is _assumed_ to have never been what is was, then the events in DVD _could not_ possibly have happen because the cosmology no longer supports it.  Creating a fictional way of explaining the change seems kinda pointless if the material doesn't acknowledge that a previous condition existed in the first place.  It can't be canon if it never actually happened even if the current condition is the same as the result of it occuring.

Ya grok?



> Canon on the local level is not very important. You game will run however you expect it to. But adventures written with canon in mind affect products that come out in the future. There is a book comming out called a Players guide to the Planes, and while it doesn't give great detail on Sigil, it does mention it. I'm not sure if it came out here or on the WOTC boards or not, but that information was leaked out by the writers.



If you're saying the new Grayhawk/Great Wheel canon will likely be more relevant to the game than Planescape/Planewalker canon, you are likely right.

BTW, I thought that was GR's book...  Or are they simply doing something akin to the planes as well?



> I expect that more material will come out in the future that will involve more of the Planescape Game setting, but only after they feel that they can more fully explore the setting in the fashion that they are doing now. (Single hardbacks and the like.)



Speculation, of course, but it does make you wonder sometimes why they bothered giving the "official conversion" licenses.  Granted, I hold nothing against the sites, but it seems that WotC tends to throw stuff out to the public involving all these different settings (via Dragon and the occassional paragraph buried in a non-Core book) without any consideration/correlation with those they granted licenses to.  I know I'd find that frustrating...  Would be hard to be taken seriously when you can wake up one day and find your work being contradicted by the only folks to have more weight on the topic.


----------



## JacktheRabbit (Feb 17, 2004)

herald said:
			
		

> Ah, but here is the rub, Dragonlance never fit into the Great Wheel. For that matter the highst level you could get to was 18th level.
> 
> As I remember, there was just three planes. (I could be wrong about that.)
> 
> You can thank Tracy Hickman for that. He put his foot down and got his way. To this day, I haven't seen anything in Planescape that pulls from Dragonlance.





The closest thing to planar travel mentioned is two DL modules. One mentioned that Lord Soth as a human knight once adventured on the Elemental Plane of Fire. Another mentioned the rules put in place by the DL Gods that will trap people on Krynn who came there from other worlds.


----------



## JacktheRabbit (Feb 17, 2004)

Bendris Noulg said:
			
		

> Not really what I'm asking...
> 
> In either of the books, does the history/fluff present the events in DVD as actually happening, or does the material claim to have always been that way?
> 
> ...





Now that is true rules lawyer babble.

The DVD module explained that this was an official change put forward that a DM could use to explain changes in their campaign. This would of course only be necessary if a DM played exactly by official rules where in 2E players could travel between Greyhawk and FR easily and then in 3E they could suddenly do no such thing.

So of course this would only apply in campaigns that started in 2E and continued in 3E your whole arguement about history including or not including this is rather unimportant. The history only need exist in certain campaigns. One example would be a campaign that used all printed material as it was printed.


----------



## Bendris Noulg (Feb 17, 2004)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> The closest thing to planar travel mentioned is two DL modules. One mentioned that Lord Soth as a human knight once adventured on the Elemental Plane of Fire. Another mentioned the rules put in place by the DL Gods that will trap people on Krynn who came there from other worlds.



I do recall the Krynn folks being regarded as Clueless in Planescape...

-Takhisis was Tiamat, and that annoying old dude as Bahumet (sp?).
-They saw all of the lower planes as one plane: "the" Abyss.

I think there was more, but I can't remember.

And, of course, all the while offering the greatest scourge ever to strike at the multiverse: SpellJamming Tinker Gnomes!


----------



## Arnwyn (Feb 17, 2004)

Bendris Noulg said:
			
		

> BTW, I thought that was GR's book...



No.


> Or are they simply doing something akin to the planes as well?



Yes.


----------



## Bendris Noulg (Feb 17, 2004)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> Now that is true rules lawyer babble.
> 
> The DVD module explained that this was an official change put forward that a DM could use to explain changes in their campaign. This would of course only be necessary if a DM played exactly by official rules where in 2E players could travel between Greyhawk and FR easily and then in 3E they could suddenly do no such thing.



So its "optional canon"?  That's funny.



> So of course this would only apply in campaigns that started in 2E and continued in 3E your whole arguement about history including or not including this is rather unimportant.



No, it's not...  If the history presented does not acknowledge that it happened, than how can it be said that it did indeed happen?  At most, they've stripped the Great Wheel of it's non-GH elements, provided FR with its own layout, and devised a means of explaining it for folks that wanted to transition to the new layouts from the old.

That's a far cry from canon for Planescape itself.



> The history only need exist in certain campaigns. One example would be a campaign that used all printed material as it was printed.



This is _exactly_ why it isn't canon: It is not part of the common basis that the cannonized rules are supposed to represent.  In this case, it contradicts from the canon of the planes (as described in 3E) as well as deviates from the continuation of Planescape (as presented by Planewalker).  Rather, it's an "optional canon" device that a GM *might* know about (if he's been playing that long or has an interest in retro material) and thus *might* use *if* he was using Planescape and wants to transition to GH/Great Wheel in 3E.


----------



## Bendris Noulg (Feb 17, 2004)

arnwyn said:
			
		

> No.
> 
> Yes.



Thanks!


----------



## Malakar (Feb 17, 2004)

*they are*



			
				Flyspeck23 said:
			
		

> So how do you explain the deity stats in _Deities and Demigods_?
> 
> But: no _Lady of Pain_ in that book. Although if WotC would redo _Planescape_, I'd bet some designer would give her stats




They are.  It is called planewalker at www.planewalker.com  The writers there are fully cannon with WOTC's approval.


----------



## Shemeska (Feb 17, 2004)

Two things:

First of all I wouldn't use Aoskar as an example of a deity getting into Sigil, loophole or otherwise. All that's ever been published is that Aoskar at one point claimed a plurality of worshippers in Sigil (mix of casual and devoted), became identified with using portals in and out of Sigil to the point where people said prayers to him when using them, and that while greedy to take Sigil for himself he stepped over line. People began to rever The Lady of Pain as an aspect of Aoskar and one of The Lady's dabus, Fell, donned the robes of a high priest and proxy of Aoskar.

When that happened Aoskar died. No long, drawn out battle, he simply died in a single moment that obliterated a district of the city itself (Shattered temple district) and razed his temple to the ground. The only survivor was Fell who lives to this day out of either mercy or torment, cast out of his place as one of the Dabus. He remains faithful to his dead patron god. Aoskar's corpse was found floating petrified in the Astral pierced through with massive, familiar shaped blades.

Never a mention of if Aoskar was inside Sigil or not at the moment he died. Perhaps he was purposefully allowed in to trap and slay him, or perhaps he managed to insinuate himself inside Sigil just enough to make him dangerous to Her Serenity, but also allow Her to destroy him with a glance and a shadow. It however is suggestive that The Lady in some rare circumstances may be able to (or simply only then choose to) extend Her power outside of The City of Doors. It's a lingering and haunting question. 

Take with this that Factol Skall of the Dustmen may have been outside Sigil on the Negative Energy plane when he was mazed. Never clarified if he was or wasn't, but it's circumstantial evidence. Keep in mind we already know she can spin off portions of Sigil back on themselves within the Deep Ethereal to form mazes. The Deep Ethereal, or even the ethereal plane as a whole doesn't overlap Sigil or the outer planes at all, The Lady is somehow acting outside of the city in a way in those cases. Also She can already form portals from any bound space in Sigil to quite literally any bound space on the planes at large. It's not too terribly stretching to perhaps assume She might be able to do more. Not that there would ever be more than 2 known examples of such ever in 10k years at least, but it's suggestive with a hill of circumstance that She can if needed.


2nd point: As far as Dragonlance and Planescape. Folks from Krynn are generally regarded as the stereotypical 'clueless' primes. However I personally don't care to use much DL stuff in Planescape because Weiss and Hickman never intended for Dragonlance to be set in the same multiverse as the other TSR settings, it get forced upon them and I have a wish to respect that if I can in some ways. Of course it's unavoidable sometimes to make reference to Krynn.


----------



## the Jester (Feb 18, 2004)

Well, first off, I've never played or bought any PS stuff at all.  I just want to address the issue of 'canon.'

If a module was published by tsr/wotc, it is canon.

You may not like it, you may choose not to use it, but to say it isn't canon is simply wrong.

That's all.  Carry on with your argument.


----------



## Pants (Feb 18, 2004)

Bendris Noulg said:
			
		

> But it's _not_ a loophole.



Yes it is.  You're arguing semantics.  



> Gods cannot enter Sigil *does not =* Gods cannot be in Sigil.



Gods cannot _enter_ Sigil, thus it should mean that Gods _should not be_ in Sigil at all.  Vecna exploited it and became a God inside Sigil.  How is that hard to understand?



> Not saying it did.  I'm saying that making her defeatable does.



Not much I can say to this.  You don't want to give her stats or make her defeatable, then why are you in a thread specifically created to get rid of the Lady?  Seems pretty self-defeating...



> "Planescape _enough_" shows my opinion.  Hormel Chili is "chili enough", after all.



I don't like Chili.  Shows my opinion.


----------



## fnork de sporg (Feb 18, 2004)

I always had a personal theory for the origins of the Lady. IMC she was the on true Overgod of all creation. If you could somehow defeat her then you would become the supreme overgod. This cycle of overgods being born from the ashes of the previous overgod has continued for all time, for longer than time has existed.

In a previous incarnation the Ovegod was fickle and vain, eventually becoming monstrously cruel and decadent.Sigil was his crown and all of creation lived squished beneath his boots. This was a time before morality, when right and wrong were merely concepts that lived in the minds of foolish mortals.  But these concepts proved great motivators as the overgod was layed low buyt a fiendishly clever mortal obsessed with the idea of ethics. This overgod recreated the universe several times, searching for a true paradise devoid of all evil, but could not succeed in his task. He himself was not pure, he could not resist the lure of his ultimate power to attempt to fix things. In his mad quest he had destroyed all he had ever cared about, his ever love and memory warped in to souless things devoid of choice. Those who were not robbed of their souls and true minds lived in torment, driven mad by a world that would properly define it self, or crushed beneath the full wight of his concentration. And every time he came up with a world that came near to his desires he could not resist the urge to meddle, and in the end he would always curropt or break it or destroy it.

Re realised that the only way the universe could ever know peace was if it lived without the interference of a mad overgod. But creation could exist without an overgod to stabilize it. And anyone with the wits and powers to usurp him would fall in to the same traps and cycles as he did. And then he came upon his brilliant idea. An overgod that did not want to be an overgod. For whom being an overgod is an unpleasant experience, for whom using the pwoer of an overgod would cause unnimaginable agony and pain. An overgod possesed of no great plans, maintaning a universal arrangment that they themselves have no personal attachment too. 

And so he devided the world by according to the ideals and ideas of his ethics, and arranged things to cause the such a thing to come in to existence, and thus for him to leave existence. And she is the Lady of Pain. Though she has the powers of ultimate omnipotence she dares not use more than fraction of them. Her mazes and her portals, these are but functions of her seat of power Sigil. Adn the flaying, the supernatural murder, is more a matter of undoing the essential bits that bind their physical form in reality. Her actual omnipotence she never, ever uses. And that was the point.


But that's just me.


----------



## Bendris Noulg (Feb 18, 2004)

Pants said:
			
		

> Gods cannot _enter_ Sigil, thus it should mean that Gods _should not be_ in Sigil at all. Vecna exploited it and became a God inside Sigil. How is that hard to understand?



"Should mean"?  Yes, that is correct _deductive reasoning_.  However, does it break the _actual_ rule?  No, it doesnt.

You say I'm argueing symantics.  What I say is that you are using loose symantics to prove a specific point.  Becoming a god inside Sigil is not a loophole to the Lady's "dictate" that gods cannot enter Sigil because a god _did not_ enter Sigil.  This isn't symantics; It's fact.  The two are completely different things and one does not invalidate the other, which a loophole would do to some extent (even if just temporarily).



> Not much I can say to this. You don't want to give her stats or make her defeatable, then why are you in a thread specifically created to get rid of the Lady? Seems pretty self-defeating...



Actually, I jumped in because of the whining against canon and to explain LoP's purpose as a source of campaign stability.  Probably stuck around too long after that...

Actually, I think most of us on both sides have.



> I don't like Chili. Shows my opinion.



More for me!


----------



## herald (Feb 18, 2004)

Bendris Noulg said:
			
		

> "Should mean"?  Yes, that is correct _deductive reasoning_.  However, does it break the _actual_ rule?  No, it doesnt.
> 
> You say I'm argueing symantics.  What I say is that you are using loose symantics to prove a specific point.  Becoming a god inside Sigil is not a loophole to the Lady's "dictate" that gods cannot enter Sigil because a god _did not_ enter Sigil.  This isn't symantics; It's fact.  The two are completely different things and one does not invalidate the other, which a loophole would do to some extent (even if just temporarily).
> 
> ...





But when he says it was a loophole, he's not wrong because the text of the module states just that. Loopholes aren't just symantics. By design or mistake, they exist to be exploited by thouse who understand laws and rules. A loophole might start off as a symantics, but since other rules are built upon it, it has to be allowed less other rules be broken.

And since those rules are so very importaint in Sigil, it cannot be ignored. 

Let me put it another way. The rule was designed to keep Gods out. It wasn't arbitrary. It was carefully designed to do just that. The ballance of the Universe depends on Sigil being God free. So when Vecna broke that rule, he was exploiting a loophole.  He was a Demi-God, he did something that made himself not a god temporarily, and then as soon as he made it to Sigil, resumed being a god. 

Loophole.


----------



## jonesy (Feb 18, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> 2nd point: As far as Dragonlance and Planescape. Folks from Krynn are generally regarded as the stereotypical 'clueless' primes. However I personally don't care to use much DL stuff in Planescape because Weiss and Hickman never intended for Dragonlance to be set in the same multiverse as the other TSR settings, it get forced upon them and I have a wish to respect that if I can in some ways. Of course it's unavoidable sometimes to make reference to Krynn.



The other part of that problem is that most (read: all) of the references to Dragonlance that Planescape material has made have appeared in a form that has seemingly intended to upset Dragonlance players. At least that's how it looked to me.


----------



## taotad (Feb 18, 2004)

jonesy said:
			
		

> The other part of that problem is that most (read: all) of the references to Dragonlance that Planescape material has made have appeared in a form that has seemingly intended to upset Dragonlance players. At least that's how it looked to me.



Pretty much all the reference to prime worlds in Planescape is intended to upset primes.

I imagined I would go tired too if I constantly confronted primes without knowledge of the big picture, thus the rather depreciatory term "Clueless".


----------



## Mista Collins (Feb 18, 2004)

How do you defeat the Lady of Pain? As it has been said before... you can't (or at least that is what is believed). As a DM though I would say that in order to "destroy" the Lady of Pain, you have to convince everyone that she does not truly exist. Since many of the gods believe she exists, that would require a lot of [donkey] kissing to convince them. That would be a neat little story line to base a campaign around. Definetly sounds epic to me.

Another way to defeat the Lady of Pain... create a home-brew campaign without her in it   .


----------



## Arnwyn (Feb 18, 2004)

Pants said:
			
		

> I don't like Chili.  Shows my opinion.



Well, now that's just screwed up. This discussion is _over_.


----------



## Kilamar (Feb 18, 2004)

the Jester said:
			
		

> If a module was published by tsr/wotc, it is canon.




That is not correct.

There were a number of products in the past that were declared non-canon afterwards, especially some novels.

Kilamar


----------



## Henry (Feb 18, 2004)

_Lady of Pain, I adore you
Died on the day I first saw you
My heart has been bleeding for you
What else could my skewered heart do?
Lady of Pain, I'm appealing
Free me from this maze that's concealing
The way back to Sigil this evening!
Lady of Pain, I love you_

(This extremely bad pun brought to you by Eddie Fischer and Henry Link)

Short of anyone else coming up with anything better than the House with the artifact in it, I think we should declare the round over, with the Lady as the winner.  But that's just my opinion.


----------



## Arnwyn (Feb 18, 2004)

Kilamar said:
			
		

> There were a number of products in the past that were declared non-canon afterwards, especially some novels.



Who declared this? When was the declaration made? In what format and where can we find this declaration?


----------



## reiella (Feb 18, 2004)

arnwyn said:
			
		

> Who declared this? When was the declaration made? In what format and where can we find this declaration?




Hmm, the ones that come to mind are a handful of incidents where later published modules just state something that is contradictory to the canon.

Although, FR Canon may be the best place to look for actual canon 'changes'.  Of course, FR canon is also a poorer choice(as it is includes inherintly self-contradictary sources.  Poor phrasing on behalf of the FR product manager in reference to what was canon caused that (anything with the Forgotten Realms logo is canon).


----------



## the Jester (Feb 19, 2004)

Kilamar said:
			
		

> That is not correct.
> 
> There were a number of products in the past that were declared non-canon afterwards, especially some novels.
> 
> Kilamar




I've never heard that before.

Before I say that I stand corrected , could you tell me where you heard this?  I've never seen this referenced before anywhere, but I don't have a lot of the setting-specific stuff from the 2ed days (which, I would imagine, is where it would be declared).


----------



## Oaken25 (Feb 19, 2004)

the Jester said:
			
		

> I've never heard that before.
> 
> Before I say that I stand corrected , could you tell me where you heard this?  I've never seen this referenced before anywhere, but I don't have a lot of the setting-specific stuff from the 2ed days (which, I would imagine, is where it would be declared).




The ones I can think of off hand are the Double Diamond Novels from TSR. TSR and WOTC decided they are not canon, except as a book that Volo wrote as a chapbook. They have the FR logo and they were put out by TSR but they are not canon, except as a in game book.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/lists


----------



## the Jester (Feb 19, 2004)

Oaken25 said:
			
		

> The ones I can think of off hand are the Double Diamond Novels from TSR. TSR and WOTC decided they are not canon, except as a book that Volo wrote as a chapbook. They have the FR logo and they were put out by TSR but they are not canon, except as a in game book.
> 
> http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/lists




Thanks for the reference.

I'd say there's a world of difference between a novel being declared non-canon and a module being considered non-canon without being declared non-canon from the guys that make it.

For one thing, the adventure happens to/involves characters, whereas the novels might be read by players.  A world of difference, imho.

Have the events of any modules been declared non-canon?


----------



## Pants (Feb 19, 2004)

Bendris Noulg said:
			
		

> "Should mean"?  Yes, that is correct _deductive reasoning_.  However, does it break the _actual_ rule?  No, it doesnt.
> 
> You say I'm argueing symantics.  What I say is that you are using loose symantics to prove a specific point.  Becoming a god inside Sigil is not a loophole to the Lady's "dictate" that gods cannot enter Sigil because a god _did not_ enter Sigil.  This isn't symantics; It's fact.  The two are completely different things and one does not invalidate the other, which a loophole would do to some extent (even if just temporarily).



A loophole doesn't break a rule, it just bypasses it.  Perhaps I should have used the word 'bypassed' in my original post, but I had no idea that this would erupt in a discussion about the usage of that particular word.  Hindsight is 20/20 I guess...



> Actually, I jumped in because of the whining against canon and to explain LoP's purpose as a source of campaign stability.  Probably stuck around too long after that...
> 
> Actually, I think most of us on both sides have.



Sounds about right.



> More for me!



I'd gladly give it up



			
				arnwyn said:
			
		

> Well, now that's just screwed up. This discussion is _over_.



Damn straight


----------



## Oaken25 (Feb 19, 2004)

the Jester said:
			
		

> Thanks for the reference.
> 
> I'd say there's a world of difference between a novel being declared non-canon and a module being considered non-canon without being declared non-canon from the guys that make it.
> 
> ...




There is no difference though. They are all part of the setting and you asked for specifics. I supplied specifics.  Especially in FR, since novels and sourcebooks have always been tied together and up to the mid 90's novels in FR were canon and were always considered to be.

I can't recall a module off hand that is, but many of the Planescape modules are probably not canon or only parts of them are now. Take Orcus for example, in 3e he is not a deity (except in FR) but in Dead Gods he returned as a deity.

However WOTC now says he isn't a deity but he still returned so only half that module is canon.

There are some FR modules and sourcebooks that are not canon any more, since Ravenloft and FR, according to the FRCS, have never been connected together.


----------



## Pants (Feb 19, 2004)

Oaken25 said:
			
		

> I can't recall a module off hand that is, but many of the Planescape modules are probably not canon or only parts of them are now. Take Orcus for example, in 3e he is not a deity (except in FR) but in Dead Gods he returned as a deity.



A Guide to Hell isn't really canon either.  No longer is the PS module that revealed the source of the Demon's ability to _Teleport_ at will.  There are no doubt, other modules that have been ignored.  I just don't know of them.



> However WOTC now says he isn't a deity but he still returned so only half that module is canon.



He's still considered a lesser deity in FR.



> There are some FR modules and sourcebooks that are not canon any more, since Ravenloft and FR, according to the FRCS, have never been connected together.



Wacky stuff really...
Then again FR has been a breeding ground for canonical inconsistencies.


----------



## Oaken25 (Feb 19, 2004)

Pants said:
			
		

> He's still considered a lesser deity in FR.




Yes I know that, which is why I said.

"I can't recall a module off hand that is, but many of the Planescape modules are probably not canon or only parts of them are now. Take Orcus for example, in 3e he is not a deity (except in FR) but in Dead Gods he returned as a deity."

Meaning in FR he is still a lesser deity.


----------



## Shemeska (Feb 19, 2004)

The novel 'Lord of the Necropolis' for Ravenloft was declared noncanon, though I don't have a link for it to give you.

Die Vecna Die wasn't declared as such officially from on high by TSR/WotC because it wasn't in the PS setting and PS wasn't an active line at that point. It got more than anything else decanonized by being ignored and unused. And then of course Planewalker made parts of it not valid.

Planewalker also is going to be giving some reasons to reconcile 3e game mechanics and monster stats with the events of Hellbound where the Maeldur et Kavurik was dunked in the Styx thus depriving the fiends of their teleportation abilities. We've discussed this already and come up with a solution that keeps both the story from the box set and the 3e presence of fiends with teleportation valid and kosher with each other.

As far as Planescape material no longer being canon just because of the edition and rule changes, I don't see your point fully. That's the same as throwing away every single greyhawk and FR book and product as never having existed just because some things they contained aren't repeated verbatim in the 3e FR and Greyhawk material. I wouldn't blanket invalidate anything fluffy and storyrelated unless it was fully contradicted, and then I'd be a bit likely to mock the contradiction if it didn't pass muster. But that's just me being picky on the last part.


----------



## reiella (Feb 19, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> As far as Planescape material no longer being canon just because of the edition and rule changes, I don't see your point fully. That's the same as throwing away every single greyhawk and FR book and product as never having existed just because some things they contained aren't repeated verbatim in the 3e FR and Greyhawk material. I wouldn't blanket invalidate anything fluffy and storyrelated unless it was fully contradicted, and then I'd be a bit likely to mock the contradiction if it didn't pass muster. But that's just me being picky on the last part.




Hmm interestingly enough, this reminds me of a little Decanonization/Unexplained Change in the world.

In the transition from 2e to 3e, FR Psionics went from being different than magic, to being the same as magic (And that change is part to blame for some editing oddities such as the Magister and Modrons being absolutely immune to magic).

[ Edit / Add ]
Hmm, should the canon discussion move over to a new thread to stop the Derailing of the Lady thread ?


----------



## Pants (Feb 19, 2004)

Oaken25 said:
			
		

> Meaning in FR he is still a lesser deity.



I hear that reading is a fundamental part in the ability to learn new information.  Perhaps, someday I will learn to do that


----------



## Bugbear (Feb 19, 2004)

Mista Collins said:
			
		

> How do you defeat the Lady of Pain? As it has been said before... you can't (or at least that is what is believed). As a DM though I would say that in order to "destroy" the Lady of Pain, you have to convince everyone that she does not truly exist. Since many of the gods believe she exists, that would require a lot of [donkey] kissing to convince them. That would be a neat little story line to base a campaign around. Definetly sounds epic to me.
> 
> Another way to defeat the Lady of Pain... create a home-brew campaign without her in it   .




This is exactly my line of thought. After all, in the outer planes, belief is reality. If you get enough people to beleve in something, it is so.

The Lady of Pain is undefeatible because the inhabitants of sigil beleve her to be. Her power ultimatly comes from the fear she instills. If, somehow, you can convince millions of sigil's inhabitants that the Lady has no power, or better yet, does not exist, she won't.

I think this is the real reason she is often seen on the streets of the cage and the reason she flays those who get on her bad side. It reenforces her image.  IIRC, in the original planescape boxed set, it was said that some people said that the LOP was three squirrels in a suit and that those people were flayed or mazed. The Lady couldn't let something like that go arroud, because people might start beleving it, making her powerless.

I may be way off on this of course, but this may be the only Canon way to destroy the Lady of Pain.


----------



## fnork de sporg (Feb 19, 2004)

If the Lady's power was somehow linked to the people's beliefe in her power than, perhaps just maybe, if one could become like the lady of pain, look like her, act like her, convince everyone around you that you were her, and turly belive yourself that you were her, then perhaps you might become her. Would you replace her, have to fight her, be absorbed in to her, or just get high on power and then immediately get flayed/maze?


----------



## herald (Feb 19, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> The novel 'Lord of the Necropolis' for Ravenloft was declared noncanon, though I don't have a link for it to give you.
> 
> Die Vecna Die wasn't declared as such officially from on high by TSR/WotC because it wasn't in the PS setting and PS wasn't an active line at that point. It got more than anything else decanonized by being ignored and unused. And then of course Planewalker made parts of it not valid.





Fine get me a letter from WOTC that states that and you'll have your proof. Or some kinda statement from WOTC that disavows this. 

It's pretty obvious that when the designers made the game, they understood the road that was laid out before them in 3e. Ignoring that is pretty silly.


----------



## herald (Feb 19, 2004)

reiella said:
			
		

> Hmm interestingly enough, this reminds me of a little Decanonization/Unexplained Change in the world.
> 
> In the transition from 2e to 3e, FR Psionics went from being different than magic, to being the same as magic (And that change is part to blame for some editing oddities such as the Magister and Modrons being absolutely immune to magic).
> 
> ...





You might just have a point.


----------



## Orius (Feb 19, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> Planewalker also is going to be giving some reasons to reconcile 3e game mechanics and monster stats with the events of Hellbound where the Maeldur et Kavurik was dunked in the Styx thus depriving the fiends of their teleportation abilities. We've discussed this already and come up with a solution that keeps both the story from the box set and the 3e presence of fiends with teleportation valid and kosher with each other.




My way of handling the Maeldur et Kavurik is simple: the fiends don't lose teleporting unless the DM's PCs actually suceed in dumping it in the Styx.

That was a pretty big campaign altering effect (not just in PS, but any material world the DM cares to include), so the PCs _should_ be involved, not offstage.  Especially since fiends losing the ability to teleport is an advantage for them.  Perhaps that's why it was part of an adventure to begin with?  

Of course, this may have long-reaching effects on the campaign, and there's no reason the teleportation loss shouldn't occur in a new campaign that happens after the campaign that suceeded.


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## Shemeska (Feb 19, 2004)

Here's what Planewalker has to reconcile the 3e teleporting fiends with the loss of that power in Hellbound's 'Squaring the Circle'. Keep in mind this was my opinion at the time and it seems to have been accepted by consensus. However since we havn't formally written it up and posted this in one of the releases yet it's obviously subject to change. 

"However my take on it is different... The existance of the Maeldur Et Kavurik is clearly something that the Yugoloths had absolutely no intention of leaking to the other fiends or any of the other planar races. By forcing any deals with the Baatezu or the Tanar'ri they tacitly admit its existance, and open themselves up to suspiscions of their larger role in the Blood War than just self serving mercenaries.

They would be admitting many things they had no intention of admitting to if they deal with the fiends to restore their teleportation abilities.

Rather this is what I would see them doing: Take the Maeldur back to Gehenna or the Waste and hide it in the darkest, most secure hole on the plane, metaphorically speaking. Secret it away. Feed to the Maeldur the names of the other fiends as fast as possible, scattering it out among the other fiends at random to make it appear a gradual and natural process. Some quirk of the planes essentially by which it was removed in the first place.

Start spreading stories about how many of their own have lost the same abilities and are only now slowly starting to regain them. Start killing those berks who would say otherwise, and attempt to hunt down and kill any living Baatezu involved in the raid that captured the Maeldur in the first place, as well as all those Baatezu who crewed the Relentless.

Give themselves plausable deniability and in secret restore the other fiends' teleportation abilities.

By dealing with the other fiends, they essentially are forced into playing their hand far far earlier than I could ever see them playing it. It's not something that honestly should have been meant to be used as a tool to control the other fiends until the Yugoloths intended to stop the Blood War. That isn't going to happen till many other of the plans of the Baernaloths come to fruition, or their experiments reach a conclusion. For one, the 3 great Yugoloth towers are not linked yet. The 3rd tower, The Tower of Incarnate Pain in Carceri is nowhere near finished, and likely won't be for another few thousand years. After that who knows what other plans the 'loths as a race have in store towards their promotion of evil across the multiverse.

They likely would eventually desire to exterminate the Gehreleths, and thats not even begun. Likely not till they finished the 3rd 'loth tower. And thats just two long term goals they'd likely need to finish before attempting to end the Blood War and unite the fiends under their own thumb.

Dealing with the fiends to restore their teleportation powers is simply too blatant, too obvious, and too rash for the 'loths to do. They're subtle creatures, and they need to act that way to ensure success. They're not ready yet to admit to what they are entirely, not ready to drop that veil across their nature they wear so well."


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## Arnwyn (Feb 19, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> Die Vecna Die wasn't declared as such officially from on high by TSR/WotC because it wasn't in the PS setting and PS wasn't an active line at that point. It got more than anything else decanonized by being ignored and unused. And then of course Planewalker made parts of it not valid.



Well, I don't ignore it and I use it, so that argument has been shot to hell.

Oh, do you mean the "majority"? Show me clear statistics, and maybe I'll consider it a valid point.


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## Shemeska (Feb 19, 2004)

arnwyn said:
			
		

> Well, I don't ignore it and I use it, so that argument has been shot to hell.
> 
> Oh, do you mean the "majority"? Show me clear statistics, and maybe I'll consider it a valid point.




Well it's hard to either directly prove my point or your point by anecdotal evidence. However while you in your game may use it and embrace the module happily, it's my experience that not a person on the Planewalker team feels the same way about it. Ranging from selective dislike for a few points to apathy to loathing of certain aspects. I fall on the former end of the scale.

Sure the group I'm picking my so called statistics from is going to have some sampling error and bias as compared to the whole of gamers as well, many of whom in my experience have never heard of DVD in more than passing. However the group is the one advancing the PS storyline, so take that as you will.

And I specifically did not say "majority" because that sort of blanket assumption tends to be flame bait. I avoided it, you brought the term up now. Nor did I use terms such as "shot to hell" and calling a point invalid while pushing the burden of proof on the other side of the issue. I don't care to get into anything more than a friendly argument here.


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## herald (Feb 20, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> Die Vecna Die wasn't declared as such officially from on high by TSR/WotC because it wasn't in the PS setting and PS wasn't an active line at that point. It got more than anything else decanonized by being ignored and unused. And then of course Planewalker made parts of it not valid.




The back cover plainly states that the characters to the "Planescape" city of Sigil. That is one of the many ways that "offically" ties it to Planescape. 

I don't see how you can make the claim that it got "Decanonized" by being ignored. Much of the the way the plot is done is reflected in the way 3e goes forward. Panthions of whole worlds are shifted, planes are realigned and some done away with. Para-elemental planes....gone. Multiple parallel primes are now fact in 3e. Oearth and Faerun are now on different primes. 

It seem that you just don't want the story because it wasn't done by the people you wanted it done by. And that's garbage. The adventure was done very well, with an eye to how 3e was going to be in the future.


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## herald (Feb 20, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> Well it's hard to either directly prove my point or your point by anecdotal evidence. However while you in your game may use it and embrace the module happily, it's my experience that not a person on the Planewalker team feels the same way about it. Ranging from selective dislike for a few points to apathy to loathing of certain aspects. I fall on the former end of the scale.
> 
> Sure the group I'm picking my so called statistics from is going to have some sampling error and bias as compared to the whole of gamers as well, many of whom in my experience have never heard of DVD in more than passing. However the group is the one advancing the PS storyline, so take that as you will.
> 
> And I specifically did not say "majority" because that sort of blanket assumption tends to be flame bait. I avoided it, you brought the term up now. Nor did I use terms such as "shot to hell" and calling a point invalid while pushing the burden of proof on the other side of the issue. I don't care to get into anything more than a friendly argument here.




But the fact is your invalidating the history of two other game worlds history just because you don't like what it does to your game world. 

I remember how I would hear other DMs complain about Planescape because in interfered with there champaigns backstory and I used to think that they were being picky, but I'm begining to see thier point. 

I think that the Planewalker site is treading on some dangerous ground when they try to invalidate part of a story line that effects one or more other game worlds, specially since much of Plancescape is now folded into Greyhawk.


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## herald (Feb 20, 2004)

arnwyn said:
			
		

> Well, I don't ignore it and I use it, so that argument has been shot to hell.
> 
> Oh, do you mean the "majority"? Show me clear statistics, and maybe I'll consider it a valid point.




I use it too. I have to admit, I hate the idea of paying for material and then someone else coming along and saying, "Oh, that, that's not offical. It's just not good enough to be used." 

"To hell you say, I paid for it, I like it and it's going to be used."


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## Arnwyn (Feb 20, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> However the group is the one advancing the PS storyline, so take that as you will.
> 
> And I specifically did not say "majority" because that sort of blanket assumption tends to be flame bait. I avoided it, you brought the term up now. Nor did I use terms such as "shot to hell" and calling a point invalid while pushing the burden of proof on the other side of the issue. I don't care to get into anything more than a friendly argument here.



Good enough for me. I now see that when you said "ignored and unused", you were referring to the Planewalker people. That bit of clarification helped.


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## Bendris Noulg (Feb 20, 2004)

And there's still the question of "3E canon", as it were...  Does MotP or DDg at all indicate that "things were different and now it's this", or do they present as, "this is how it is, as it has always been, and will forever be"?

This is important because if the planes are now "as they have always been", then an event that supposedly changed the planes to their current state becomes a non-sequitor event: The planes never changed, so how could it have changed the planes?

This is akin to the change of the dwarven race in FR: Previously, they were presented as rough and gruff because they were a dying race (low female birth rate), while in 3E an event is added to the _history_ of the Realms (Day of Thunder, IIRC) that makes them a now-thriving race (making all those rough and gruff dwarves rough and gruff for no reason because game play happened after the event prior to the event being added to the mythos).

I guess the issue to me isn't so much canon vs non-canon, but rather that these changes present near-paradox conditions that can only be avoided by pretending some parts are true and others aren't.  This makes it hard to accept it as canon because each element of the event becomes seperate from the event itself by virtue of retaining or loosing relevance within the new mythos presented for the individual settings. (In this case, parts of the event are meaningless in Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms because the "new history" renders it moot, while other settings like Planescape and SpellJammer must either ignore [different] parts of the event or loose some of their hallmark features.)


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## Shemeska (Feb 20, 2004)

arnwyn said:
			
		

> Good enough for me. I now see that when you said "ignored and unused", you were referring to the Planewalker people. That bit of clarification helped.




*nodding* I should have been more clear and less dogmatic in a couple of my posts, sorry for the confusion there.


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## Whitey (Feb 23, 2004)

Back to what the original poster was asking for.  They wanted to know how to defeat the 'lady' as such a question was raised on another thread.  It can be done.  Much like overcoming any other walking handwipe, something that Always Wins Forever, just find something else that Always Wins Forever and set it in opposition.  Whitey proposed some of these earlier - here's another batch.

 Get a whole pile of ether scarabs (from MM2) and alarm or destroy enough of them that they open a planar rift big enough to encompass Her Royal Pincushion, or the whole of Sigil, and dump that on another plane, where some other deific figure gets to make up rules and Always Wins Forever.  Since it's a rip, specifically not a _gate_, it's unlikely this effect could be just waved away.
Have an earth elemental weird (also MM2) to predict her demise.
'A weird can divine information that can change the very course of history. It has its finger on the pulse of fate and knows exactly where possible courses of action might lead. <snip> A weird's warning and advice are never wrong.' It's never wrong.  It Always Wins Forever, too.
And the best one - or the one best applicable to an actual game.  Say a chipper adventurer shows up, and just isn't grovelling like he/she should.  As the lady starts that whole maze/flay/0wnz0r bit, our intrepid hero/heroine smiles and says "Don't think so, pumpkin."  Turns out they'd earlier drawn the Fates from a _deck of many things_.  There's no trump to that card.  From the SRD:


> This card enables the character to avoid even an instantaneous occurrence if so desired, for the fabric of reality is unraveled and respun.



Fate itself is on the bearer's side.  This adventurer's done what even the gods could not.  With that the lady is overthrown, or at least the original poster's goal is accomplished, and there was much wailing and gnashing from the fanboys.  Sure, the adventurer might not Always Win Forever, but to have the setting and its 'canon' serve the interests of the gaming group and not vice versa, there's always a way.


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## Shemeska (Feb 23, 2004)

Whitey said:
			
		

> Get a whole pile of ether scarabs (from MM2) and alarm or destroy enough of them that they open a planar rift big enough to encompass Her Royal Pincushion, or the whole of Sigil, and dump that on another plane, where some other deific figure gets to make up rules and Always Wins Forever.  Since it's a rip, specifically not a _gate_, it's unlikely this effect could be just waved away.
> Have an earth elemental weird (also MM2) to predict her demise.
> 'A weird can divine information that can change the very course of history. It has its finger on the pulse of fate and knows exactly where possible courses of action might lead. <snip> A weird's warning and advice are never wrong.' It's never wrong.  It Always Wins Forever, too.
> And the best one - or the one best applicable to an actual game.  Say a chipper adventurer shows up, and just isn't grovelling like he/she should.  As the lady starts that whole maze/flay/0wnz0r bit, our intrepid hero/heroine smiles and says "Don't think so, pumpkin."  Turns out they'd earlier drawn the Fates from a _deck of many things_.  There's no trump to that card.




Well, back to the argument between a plot device and people who think that a big enough sword and enough dice and rules picking will defeat anything at all becuase they must be able to even if its gods or overpowers, etc.

First of all, the Ether scarab idea won't won't. The Planar Rip ability refers to the Ethereal when it says a rip between "it's plane" and another. Sigil doesn't overlap the ethereal plane, and even an astral rift (since Sigil overlaps the Astral) won't really work because you still won't leave the city, just be potentially dumped into the sequestered region of the Astral the city does overlap, you can't enter or leave the city to the astral at large still except by way of a portal in the city.

The Earth Wierd is an amusing idea, but it only says they can predict when something can die, they don't actually cause the person's death or make fate twist to have a person die at a specific place and time. What if they Earthwierd refuses to answer the question, or cannot answer it, or begins to scream in horror when they begin to ponder the question, the answer (or lack of it) driving them insane or killing them? I would certainly think that deities would be able to hide their own fate from the knowledge of a simple elemental being. If your own worshippers asked an earth wierd when you would die, and got an answer that screws you over with your base of worshippers. They know you're not immortal for all time, and will one day die. Why then do they, or anyone worship you and not another deity?

As far as the fate card, would you want to allow that to actually function in such a way? Ie. would you let them walk up to a deity after that card pick and fight them bare handed and win because the card somehow trumps divinity?) The Lady is certainly capable of blunting entry to Sigil with something like that, or an artifact that would damage Sigil for instance. The artifact or the holder of it, or both, just wouldn't enter the city. 

In your own game, fine if that's your way of playing, sure. But it's not supported by any 'canon' ways to defeat The Lady, which was the original question for this thread as you yourself mentioned.

I'll ignore the use of the word banboy, it's offensive and uncalled for. That doesn't win you any arguments.


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## Zappo (Feb 23, 2004)

Ether scarabs won't do a thing to Sigil, because the city doesn't border the Ethereal.
 I think the Fates card could allow a character to resist the attack. Once, of course. He's toast the following round. That's what the card does, it doesn't allow you to win any fight.
 The weird predicts future, doesn't create it. If asked, he could only answer "never".

 You see, it's not a matter of being fanboys. There _is_ no way to kill the Lady. This is explicitly stated multiple times throughout the Planescape material. You may not like it, but that doesn't change it. In order to kill her, you have to break canon, which is all well and good but not what the original poster asked for.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 23, 2004)

Has it ever been decided if the Lady is all powerful only while she is in Sigil or would she be all powerful if she ever left Sigil.  The reason I was asking is because you could put a bag of holding inside of a portable hole (or whichever way it is supposed to go) to open an astral rift to suck her and everything else around the rip into the astral plane.  If she is still all powerful then no big deal for her.  If not then she'd be in a world of hurt if some of the more powerful entities on the Astral were to get wind of her presence.


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## Shemeska (Feb 24, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> Has it ever been decided if the Lady is all powerful only while she is in Sigil or would she be all powerful if she ever left Sigil.  The reason I was asking is because you could put a bag of holding inside of a portable hole (or whichever way it is supposed to go) to open an astral rift to suck her and everything else around the rip into the astral plane.  If she is still all powerful then no big deal for her.  If not then she'd be in a world of hurt if some of the more powerful entities on the Astral were to get wind of her presence.




Well, The Lady has never been observed outside of Sigil, so it's only speculation there. It boils down to if you think The Lady controls Sigil or if Sigil empowers The Lady. Most signs point to this being the former. [She's never been observed outside Sigil 'herself' anyways, though there's evidence of Her symbols and signs of Her actions on Acheron in 'Doors to the Unknown']

As far as two bags of holding go, I would say either they wouldn't have the desired effect while in Sigil, or if they did not much would happen. The portion of the Astral that Sigil overlaps is cut off and sequestered away from the rest of the plane. You can't enter or leave the city by way of the Astral, only by the portals. So sure you might have a sudden tear into the Astral, but it won't lead anyways really except an empty volume of the Astral that doesn't seem to make sense of the Astral or play by the normal rules of the plane.

I doubt that The Lady would be drifting along the streets of Sigil at the same time you decided to plunge two bags of holding onto each other. You might find yourself mazed at the same instant you start to push them into each other, or you might find yourself standing on top of that rift w/ The Lady nowhere in sight.

It'd take more than that in other words, but nice try. Noone ever said She played by the same rules as anyone else.


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## Whitey (Feb 24, 2004)

Whitey didn't post on this thread to win an argument - or to start one.  It's not worth getting that irritated or irritating someone else that much over a couple paragraphs of young adult fiction or an unsupported game setting.
It's unfortunate that it'd take such literal rules interpretations, misuse of items, and really some underhanded tactics to depose the 'lady'.  They're plausible, which is more what Calico Jack was asking for, if a little shady.  If it's a question of shady rules overcoming a shady plot device, isn't overcoming that plot device in favor of another device what the whole thread is about?  The question wasn't about how it *can't* be done, or how someone would be wrong to even try such a thing.  

Mentioning the earth weird is mostly to illustrate an earlier point - as ridiculous as it would be to have a PC weird pointing out random folks and declaring them dead just because the rules say so, it is equally ridiculous to have a DM use the 'lady' to declare ambitious PCs dead just because the rules say so.  Accomplishing Jack's campaign goal (and the premise of Paka's story hour) may well require some leeway with rules or setting canon - that's the DM prerogative.  But it's not just DM prerogative.  There are plausible, if not wonderful, approaches mentioned in this thread, which adhere just as dogmatically to the rules 'canon' as to setting 'canon'.


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## Malakar (Feb 24, 2004)

*Canon: What is?*

Ok folks. 
  I feel it is time to give a point out to what canon is.  It is what is published and the overplot that the designers or a specific designated group decides will be official.  In the end the Canon in question is what a group that has been given jurisdiction decides is canon.  The canon is question is for the current publication of planescape using the current third edition ruleset.  Wotc has given the jurisdiction for this to the folks at planewalker.

     In the end *no* game run by a gm with players is ever canon.  Unless it was video taped and released to the public somehow with wotc's blessing it will never be canon.  Why?  Because in order to play at all you have to diverge from canon because nothing is published about your specific character existing or the route that your specific game plot takes.  People here are treating Planescape Canon as a set or rules when it is not.  The lady can not be killed in canon because no one has published her being killed in canon.  Thus the question of how she can be killed in canon is irrelevent.  However the question of based on canon what might be some good ways to kill her would be relavent.

Thank you


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## Zappo (Feb 24, 2004)

I agree with Malakar, and that's why I would suggest calico_jack to just hit his rules lawyer with a brick and do what he feels best for his campaign.


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## Malakar (Feb 25, 2004)

Remember.  Make that a gold brick with a twist of lemon.


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## Phasmus (Feb 25, 2004)

My take on the matter is that there is a certain mathematical slant to the planes.  For example, the spire seems like the place where the multiverse divides by zero.  Sigil itself, in my mind, represents the 'average' of the planes as a whole; hence the mixing of every other part of reality, and the general remorseless neutrality of The Lady herself.  Most importantly to this discussion, Sigil (and The Lady) present an uninvertible function.  (Hypothetically, changing Sigil requires exactly as much effort as changing the multiverse itself.)

So, the key here is that you don't try to destroy The Lady or take over Sigil.  You take over the multiverse, and in the process Sigil and The Lady become yours as an 'existential bonus prize'.  In the meantime, for our specific case, the state of Sigil could serve as an ominous indicator of the success of the lower-planar armies.  The more hellish Sigil becomes, and the more actively evil The Lady becomes in her actions and edicts, the closer to ultimate victory the fiendish and abyssal armies must be.


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## John Q. Mayhem (Feb 25, 2004)

Malakar said:
			
		

> Remember.  Make that a gold brick with a twist of lemon.




 a_large_ gold brick  the Hitchhiker's Trilogy rocks. Wait-could the flying black Guide take out the Lady? It seems pretty darn omnipotent (benn a while since I read the books).


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## John Q. Mayhem (Feb 25, 2004)

This thread reminds me of a song...
_I stand on the brink of my own demise,
Falling again for another
Mistress of burden to idolize,
Hoping that one of them will decide to let me in..._


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## Shemeska (Feb 25, 2004)

John Q. Mayhem said:
			
		

> This thread reminds me of a song...
> _I stand on the brink of my own demise,
> Falling again for another
> Mistress of burden to idolize,
> Hoping that one of them will decide to let me in..._




Hmm... perhaps it's time to post Swinburne's 'Dolores'


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## Malakar (Feb 25, 2004)

No it would simply upon being questioned about the lady list "Don't worship, and don't mess with"


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## herald (Feb 25, 2004)

I did some reviewing of DVD, and some Planescape material last night. Some things started me to think.

Sigil is the lynchpin of the Multiverse, the Lady of Pain is it's protector. She doesn't allow for people to worship her, and while DVD doesn't state this, it makes a sort of perverse sense that she doesn't allow for it because of the damage it would do to the multiverse. That's why she damages anyone who trys to worship her.

If you where going to stat the Lady, I would have to say that you would need to start with 20 levels of outsider. After that, I'm not sure.


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## Malakar (Feb 26, 2004)

The lady's stats to solve this once and for all.

Outsider Level: 20
Wizard Level: 20
Fighter Level: 20
Bladed One Level: 20
Greater Smack Down: 20
MunchkinBGone: 20
Unknowable Entity: 20
Epic Unknowable Entity: 20
Ultra Epic Unknowable Entity:20

Any questions?


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## herald (Feb 26, 2004)

You know, it would please me no better to find out that the Lady of Pain was just a construct and the dabus were just totting her allong to make everyone think dshe was incharge.

"I am the great and powerful Oz!"


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