# Iron Heroes - I have it in my hands!



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

It looks beautiful....
I'm starting to read now. Will post details as I get to them. If you have any questions, please ask.


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> It looks beautiful....
> I'm starting to read now. Will post details as I get to them. If you have any questions, please ask.




How...what....who....when....

*the mind reels that you have this!*


----------



## A'koss (Jul 29, 2005)

Bastard!  

Okay, now that I got that off my chest...

1. I'm quite interested in the Weapon Master class - quick breakdown?

2. Armor and Damage Resistance - some examples?

3. Arcanist - quick breakdown? Mana? How does the spellcasting system work? What kinds of spells can you cast? Other abilities?

4. Which are the coolest feats IYO?  

5. Most interesting modifications to skills? I would be interested in what changes were made to Diplomacy.

6. Any other cool features - Combat Challenges?


Thanks!


----------



## Andor (Jul 29, 2005)

So.... about the Arcanist...


----------



## zen_hydra (Jul 29, 2005)

Beyond what we have seen previewed, what new combat dynamics are introduced?

What are the abilities (in a nutshell) of the non-previewed classes?

Can you give us a summation of how the Arcanist / magic system works?

What is really innovative and cool about the game that didn't make it into the previews?

Would you be kind enough to give us a table of contents listing?

Now that it is available, can the play testers come out and spill their guts on the topic?


----------



## A'koss (Jul 29, 2005)

zen_hydra said:
			
		

> Would you be kind enough to give us a table of contents listing?



You can find the Table of Contents here... http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_IL_TOC

Cheers!


----------



## Nailom (Jul 29, 2005)

How many pages are filled with spells and are they much different then the one's in the PHB?


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

All saves equal level, so at 20th level you have +20 in all saves.
Poor attack bonus goes to +15, average goes to +20 and excellent goes to +25.
Poor defense to +15, average to +17, excellent to +20.

Two feats at 1st level, one feat every even level after (2, 4, 6 etc.).

Weapon master: average BAB with all weapons, excellent with one. Average defense. HD 1d4+6 per level. Gains tokens by hitting opponent. Gains weapon style abilities. These are fx. Expert strike (+1 to hit or dam per token spent) or Mighty blow (spend 3 tokens, reroll damage roll, use best result). Favored defense: Gets better defense with favored weapon. Weapon expertise: spend tokens to activate, fx. Precise strike (spend 4 tokens to take 10 on attack roll). Weapon supremacy: spend tokens to use even more powerful abilities like Telling Blow – combine special attack like disarm with standard attack.

Armor: leather 1d2/magic, chain 1d4/magic, plate 1d8/magic. So no protection vs. magic attacks,, including magic weapons.

Arcanist and magic: getting back with that.

Feat: There are many to choose from. Improved critical, Expanded mastery 10: You no longer need to roll to confirm critical threats. If youer attack has any chance of piercing a vital area, you infallibly drive it home


There are about 5 sample spells. I will read the arcanist and the magic system now, as this seems to be what people are interested in the most.


----------



## Turanil (Jul 29, 2005)

I can't wait for someone writing a detailed review.

My question: do you feel this system is overpowered (compared to normal d20)? Imean: BABs that are +5 higher than normal d20 babs, one feat per two levels, all saves at +1 per level...


----------



## A'koss (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> All saves equal level, so at 20th level you have +20 in all saves.



Whoa momma!  



> Two feats at 1st level, one feat every even level after (2, 4, 6 etc.).



So it is two at 1st level (and I assume it's still 2 Traits at 1st level as well)... that makes for some tough 1st level characters. Have ability scores increases changed from core?

Thanks for the WM breakdown Sorcica - very much what I expected.



> Armor: leather 1d2/magic, chain 1d4/magic, plate 1d8/magic. So no protection vs. magic attacks,, including magic weapons.



Are there magic weapons in IH?

Cheers!


----------



## GlassJaw (Jul 29, 2005)

How does a IH character fight an incorporeal creature?


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

Magic:
1. Gather mana.  The arcanist must determine how much mana to gather. Depending on his level, he there's a limit to how much he can gather without risking damage to mind and body. When spending mana you reduce the remaining available mana by the mana spent. If this brings you mana in the negative, you must save (Fort DC15 + amount of negative mana) or suffer strain. Strain is temporary damage equal to your negative mana to *all* ability scores.

2. Create spell effect. There are eight scools of magic: Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, Transmutation. An arcanist chooses at 1st level which scool to be his primary and another to be his secondary. At 3rd level he gets a tertiary scool and at 5th level he gets access to all scools. This determines his spell mastery ratings in the various schools.
The mastery determines what is possible to do with the spell.

3. Channel the spell. 1d20 + mastery of school. DC equal to mana spent on spell + 5 + your int mod. Fail by 10 or less, a moderate disaster strikes. Fail by more than 10, a major disaster strikes. Each scool has different disasters listed.

I will get back with a more detailed example of spellcasting


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> How does a IH character fight an incorporeal creature?



 From what I've read so far, it doesn't take a magic weapon to hit incorporel beings. Everything else is the same.


----------



## Ibram (Jul 29, 2005)

First: What Dark Gods to you make a pact with to get it so early... cause mine cant seem to do anything...

Second:  Wow, I like the way that magic system works... a quick question: the DC to cast a spell is equal to the amount of mana spent + 5 + Int mod right.  so is there a way to vary the amount of mana spent on an effect, and does that influence the spell in any way?


----------



## HeapThaumaturgist (Jul 29, 2005)

The magic system sounds interesting.

I must say, this "resources gathered inside combat" concept seems pretty ... revolutionary to me.  Something that I feel myself very attracted to, which might draw me to the game, or at least lead to me ripping all the guts out of the system and strapping it on to Grim Tales.  That aspect being included in magic seems interesting, as magic has generally been a "count down" system ... Spells Memorized, Spells Per Day, Spell Points, using Hit Points or Ability Points ... etc.

--fje


----------



## A'koss (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> From what I've read so far, it doesn't take a magic weapon to hit incorporel beings. Everything else is the same.



Eh? Are there any special requirements to hitting incorporeal creatures? You can't just whack away at them with ordinary weapons, can you...?


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

No magic weapons as far as I can see. At least, they're not mentioned in equipment. Maybe there's some feats. Have to check.

No change to ability raises.

Turanil: It's hard to say yet. I still need to _read_ the book. 

In Blue Rose, PCs get a feat every level. If you dropped the damge save, and used hit points, I wouldn't say BR is overpowered. Has to do with the way magic works, I think.
It does look very powerful. FX. there's no feat in the epic handbook that makes you automatically crit. But in IH, there is.
I've complained before about AE being a powercreep. But I won't make a judgement until I've read and absorped the book and used it - but hey, that's me!

One thing though, it seems to be woefully uncompatible to standard D&D. Can't see how you could have a party with elements of both.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

Ibram said:
			
		

> First: What Dark Gods to you make a pact with to get it so early... cause mine cant seem to do anything...
> 
> Second:  Wow, I like the way that magic system works... a quick question: the DC to cast a spell is equal to the amount of mana spent + 5 + Int mod right.  so is there a way to vary the amount of mana spent on an effect, and does that influence the spell in any way?




The Dark Gods of Scandinavia are powerful indeed!

The amount of mana spent depends on the desired spell effect. The more powerful the spell, the more mana it costs


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> One thing though, it seems to be woefully uncompatible to standard D&D. Can't see how you could have a party with elements of both.




And I still don't understand why people seem to want it to be...


----------



## MoogleEmpMog (Jul 29, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> Eh? Are there any special requirements to hitting incorporeal creatures? You can't just whack away at them with ordinary weapons, can you...?




Solomon Kane did it - now you can, too!



			
				HeapThaumaturgist said:
			
		

> I must say, this "resources gathered inside combat" concept seems pretty ... revolutionary to me. Something that I feel myself very attracted to, which might draw me to the game, or at least lead to me ripping all the guts out of the system and strapping it on to Grim Tales. That aspect being included in magic seems interesting, as magic has generally been a "count down" system ... Spells Memorized, Spells Per Day, Spell Points, using Hit Points or Ability Points ... etc.




I agree, it's absolutely revolutionary - for pen-and-paper RPGs.

It's fairly common in electronic games, though, including RPGs.  The Wild ARMs series, for example, uses a Force Point system very similar in concept to Iron Heroes.  Limit Breaks in the Final Fantasy series also build up 'in battle.'

I love the way those systems work in console RPGs.

My only concern is that Iron Heroes could end up more like a lot of Real-Time Strategy games (Warcraft and the like), where resource gathering becomes more important than actually fighting.

Seems unlikely, though.  Mearls knows what he's about.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> And I still don't understand why people seem to want it to be...



 Because Mearls and Monte has stated it as being compatible?


----------



## A'koss (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> No change to ability raises.



Really... I'm quite shocked they didn't get a boost here. Maybe with all the extra combat oomph it was decided more wasn't needed.


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 29, 2005)

My 11 year old son saw the full page add for Iron Heroes in Dragon this month, and thrust it in my face shouting, "This is the kind of campaign you should run! No magic gizmos, just bash, hack, and slash!"

I was so proud.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

Some of the feats look nice. Many are 'just' the core feats build into feat masteries and renamed. Others look new to me. The Social group feats and the Tactics group feats look very interesting (access to feat groups are determined by class.)

There are no favoréd or non-favored skills. All are favored. Classes have favored skill groups. This means that every skill point spent increases all skills in the group. Example: Athlectic (Climb, Jump, Swim), Theatrics (Bluff, Disguise, Perform, Sleight of Hand)


----------



## Akrasia (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> Magic:
> 1. Gather mana.  The arcanist must determine how much mana to gather. Depending on his level, he there's a limit to how much he can gather without risking damage to mind and body. When spending mana you reduce the remaining available mana by the mana spent. If this brings you mana in the negative, you must save (Fort DC15 + amount of negative mana) or suffer strain. Strain is temporary damage equal to your negative mana to *all* ability scores...




That sounds rather interesting.  It reminds me of the way that magic was handled by Larry Niven in his fantasy novels/stories from the 1960s  ("The Magic Goes Away"...).



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> ...
> 3. Channel the spell. 1d20 + mastery of school. DC equal to mana spent on spell + 5 + your int mod. Fail by 10 or less, a moderate disaster strikes. Fail by more than 10, a major disaster strikes. Each scool has different disasters listed....




The failure rules sound reminiscent of WFRP.  Are there charts for the 'disasters' for spell failure?


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> Really... I'm quite shocked they didn't get a boost here. Maybe with all the extra combat oomph it was decided more wasn't needed.




Characters in IH need more experience to level (same as AE).


----------



## orangefruitbat (Jul 29, 2005)

Cause I got a shelf load of DnD adventures that I wouldn't mind running with a tweaked out rules system?




			
				Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> And I still don't understand why people seem to want it to be...


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

Spell example.
In the creation method to conjure an object, one must shape the object into a given size.
Let's say that an arcanist wishes to create an iron object of large size. Looking at the tables, we see that Iron requires mastery 4, and large size mastery 6. All elements must be taken into consideration to determine if an arcanist can create a spell.
For the mana cost, the caster must look at the mastery required for each element (material and size). The cost is highest mana requirement plus ½remaining mastery elements. So for this spell 8 mana (6 + [4/2]).


----------



## fuindordm (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> 1. Gather mana.  The arcanist must determine how much mana to gather. Depending on his level, he there's a limit to how much he can gather without risking damage to mind and body. When spending mana you reduce the remaining available mana by the mana spent. If this brings you mana in the negative, you must save (Fort DC15 + amount of negative mana) or suffer strain. Strain is temporary damage equal to your negative mana to *all* ability scores.




So not tokens, but something similar.  Presumably not tokens because this is something they can do outside of combat, wheras tokens are only gathered within a combat?



> 2. Create spell effect. There are eight scools of magic: Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, Transmutation. An arcanist chooses at 1st level which scool to be his primary and another to be his secondary. At 3rd level he gets a tertiary scool and at 5th level he gets access to all scools. This determines his spell mastery ratings in the various schools.
> The mastery determines what is possible to do with the spell.




I guess this is so that players can still draw inspiration from the D&D lists, but I could have wished that they came up with a more flavorful breakdown.  I've never liked the feel of the traditional schools, too 
analytical, and some categories much too broad.



> 3. Channel the spell. 1d20 + mastery of school. DC equal to mana spent on spell + 5 + your int mod. Fail by 10 or less, a moderate disaster strikes. Fail by more than 10, a major disaster strikes. Each scool has different disasters listed.
> 
> I will get back with a more detailed example of spellcasting




Wait, the smarter you are the harder it is to cast?  Does the Int mod really go on the DC, or does it go on the roll?

Looking forward to the example.  Thanks for the scoop!

Ben


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

fuindordm said:
			
		

> Wait, the smarter you are the harder it is to cast?  Does the Int mod really go on the DC, or does it go on the roll?
> 
> Ben




Yeah, it baffles the mind. I'm still trying to find out if this is an errata or not. A high int does affect the save DCs (which are 10 + int + ½mana spent, BTW), but this does not explain that the smarter you are, the more difficult it is to cast your spell.....


----------



## Aazenius (Jul 29, 2005)

I believe it's because magic is so difficult to control that your own mind works against you in that regard.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

fuindordm said:
			
		

> Looking forward to the example.  Thanks for the scoop!
> 
> Ben




You're welcome, here's an example from the book:
"Brigit blasts a group of skeletons with a 30-foot cone of flame. The minimum mastery for the cone is 7, while the fire damage is mastery 1. Thus, the base cost of the spell is 8 mana: 7 for the the area of effect and 1 (half of 1 is 0.5, which rounds up to 1. always round up when figuring mana costs). She wants the spell to inflict 4d6 points of damage, for an additional 4 mana.

The blast's total cost becomes 12 mana. Normally the channeling DC for a 12-mana spell is 17. However, for this method you double the mana spent on amage to determine the DC. In this case, the DC is now 21: base DC 5, plus 7 for the area of effect, plus 1 for the fire energy type, plus 8 for spending 4 mana on damage."


----------



## XCorvis (Jul 29, 2005)

In the example the int mod isn't mentioned at all - that's probably a typo then, since it makes little sense, and can be safely ignored.

So it should read:


> 3. Channel the spell. 1d20 + mastery of school. DC equal to mana spent on spell + 5 + your int mod. Fail by 10 or less, a moderate disaster strikes. Fail by more than 10, a major disaster strikes. Each scool has different disasters listed.


----------



## (Psi)SeveredHead (Jul 29, 2005)

Turanil said:
			
		

> I can't wait for someone writing a detailed review.
> 
> My question: do you feel this system is overpowered (compared to normal d20)? Imean: BABs that are +5 higher than normal d20 babs, one feat per two levels, all saves at +1 per level...




No magic weapons = low attack bonus. A higher BAB is not overpowered.

One feat per two levels - have to read the book first.

All saves at +1/level? Good! I'm tired of not being able to get a low save equal to my level. (The MM says a CR 7 creature's low saves should be +7. It's hard to get a fighter with Ref and Will saves of +7 as a PC, who has more gear than an equal level NPC. It only gets worse at higher level. And if the fighter is bad, the rogue is worse...)


----------



## Turjan (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> You're welcome, here's an example from the book:
> "Brigit blasts a group of skeletons with a 30-foot cone of flame. The minimum mastery for the cone is 7, while the fire damage is mastery 1. Thus, the base cost of the spell is 8 mana: 7 for the the area of effect and 1 (half of 1 is 0.5, which rounds up to 1. always round up when figuring mana costs). She wants the spell to inflict 4d6 points of damage, for an additional 4 mana.
> 
> The blast's total cost becomes 12 mana. Normally the channeling DC for a 12-mana spell is 17. However, for this method you double the mana spent on amage to determine the DC. In this case, the DC is now 21: base DC 5, plus 7 for the area of effect, plus 1 for the fire energy type, plus 8 for spending 4 mana on damage."



Ah, simple and intuitive. That's how I love it .


----------



## Anthtriel (Jul 29, 2005)

What interests me most is how shields work. +2 AC alone seems somewhat worthless for a 20th level character. Are there shield feats for them, to make them more powerful?

Oh, and how does the Man-at-Arms work? Does he have token of his own?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

XCorvis said:
			
		

> In the example the int mod isn't mentioned at all - that's probably a typo then, since it makes little sense, and can be safely ignored.




My thought as well. Guess we'll have to wait ans see what Mearls or Monte says about it.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

Anthtriel said:
			
		

> What interests me most is how shields work. +2 AC alone seems somewhat worthless for a 20th level character. Are there shield feats for them, to make them more powerful?
> 
> Oh, and how does the Man-at-Arms work? Does he have token of his own?
> 
> Thanks in advance.



 Shiel Mastery feat chain makes shiels _very_ useful indeed.

Man-at-arms, let's see.....

average BAB, average defense. Gets bonus feat more or less like a fighter. He gets 'wild cards' which is a feat you choose when you need it. It then remains that feat for the rest of the day. The next day, you choose a new feat when you need it. (Cool). 
The man-at-arms gets feat mastery in all feats.


----------



## Anthtriel (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> Man-at-arms, let's see.....
> 
> average BAB, average defense. Gets bonus feat more or less like a fighter. He gets 'wild cards' which is a feat you choose when you need it. It then remains that feat for the rest of the day. The next day, you choose a new feat when you need it. (Cool).
> The man-at-arms gets feat mastery in all feats.



Thanks. 
So he is indeed the feat man, as some expected.

And if you wouldn't mind to tell us, who gets sneak attack, the Executioner or the Thief? Or both?


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

Anthtriel said:
			
		

> And if you wouldn't mind to tell us, who gets sneak attack, the Executioner or the Thief? Or both?




Both. Executioner ends up with 10d6, Thief with 7d6.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

Anthtriel said:
			
		

> So he is indeed the feat man, as some expected.




The man-at arms is the fighter, the thief is the rogue and the berserker is the barbarian. They should not be converted in games that use one or the other (says the book).

The conversion guidelines IMO confirm that the two systems do not go well together, i.e. a mixed party will take some major work or rulings like 'you can't use magic items, because!'


----------



## Anthtriel (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> Both. Executioner ends up with 10d6, Thief with 7d6.



I'll definately have a Executioner in my campaign then. ^^
I have just one question left then. What kind of character is the harrier? I know he is supposed to use light armor and weapons, but what is the difference to the executioner?

Your answers are very much appreciated.


----------



## Michael Tree (Jul 29, 2005)

What are the conversion guidelines like for using D&D without magic items?  If I want to create a game using the IL fighting classes, AE witchs magisters and mageblades, and D&D druids, without magic items, does it have concrete guidelines for what to do with the AE and D&D classes?


----------



## mearls (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> Yeah, it baffles the mind. I'm still trying to find out if this is an errata or not. A high int does affect the save DCs (which are 10 + int + ½mana spent, BTW), but this does not explain that the smarter you are, the more difficult it is to cast your spell.....




This will be errata'd. Sounds like something got FUBARed in the translation from final text to post editing.


----------



## Kunimatyu (Jul 29, 2005)

Does the Arcanist have guidelines for summoning elementals/outsiders with spells?


----------



## Savage Wombat (Jul 29, 2005)

What skill is it we're rolling to cast these spells?  Spellcraft?


----------



## Kunimatyu (Jul 29, 2005)

Savage Wombat said:
			
		

> What skill is it we're rolling to cast these spells?  Spellcraft?




I don't think it's a skill roll, it's a spell mastery roll(that goes up with level?).


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

Savage Wombat said:
			
		

> What skill is it we're rolling to cast these spells?  Spellcraft?



 no skill. d20 + Mastery level.


----------



## Savage Wombat (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> no skill. d20 + Mastery level.




Sounds like a pretty hard roll then.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Does the Arcanist have guidelines for summoning elementals/outsiders with spells?



 Yes. With conjuration, though you need to be high level to summon elementals/outsiders.


----------



## Kunimatyu (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> Yes. With conjuration, though you need to be high level to summon elementals/outsiders.




Darn. I was hoping for a caster who just summoned elementals/mephits to perform tasks for him.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

Michael Tree said:
			
		

> What are the conversion guidelines like for using D&D without magic items?  If I want to create a game using the IL fighting classes, AE witchs magisters and mageblades, and D&D druids, without magic items, does it have concrete guidelines for what to do with the AE and D&D classes?




Sort of, but not really, no  :\ 

It give guidelines to convert IH characters to D&D, but not really how to mix them. I honestly don't think I'm doing the conversion guidelines justice, but the way I read them (briefly), the various systems don't seem to mix well.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Darn. I was hoping for a caster who just summoned elementals/mephits to perform tasks for him.



 Well, you could always describe the spell as being elementals/imps doing the work, creating the mechanic effects of the spell.


----------



## Kunimatyu (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> Well, you could always describe the spell as being elementals/imps doing the work, creating the mechanic effects of the spell.




That's a possibility.

How does the Armiger work in terms of tokens/abilities? I've got a player chomping at the bit to play one, and he'll be grateful for any information.


----------



## Talgian (Jul 29, 2005)

How does the harrier work? Mearls said they don't use tokens, so I'm curious what they get in place.

Also, is there any way to create a useable unarmed character? Not necessarily like the Monk, but, you know, someone who just uses their body as weapons?

Carry on,
-Talgian


----------



## Turanil (Jul 29, 2005)

Well, it looks like that Iron Heroes has very interesting premises: tokens, stunts, dangerous magic, no magical items, the classes, etc. It would certainly fit extremely well to use in a Conan's Hyboria setting. In fact, I would not be adverse to try this game someday, but only as a player. This seems as heavy to run as normal D&D, for which I have some difficulties past 10th level. Also it seems to entirely focus on combat, and I do not want to do only that in a game. Then, it seems overpowered. I don't see why the game could not be built with traditional BAB and saving throws, and d20 rate of gaining feats. Anyway, to each his own.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

Anthtriel said:
			
		

> I'll definately have a Executioner in my campaign then. ^^
> I have just one question left then. What kind of character is the harrier? I know he is supposed to use light armor and weapons, but what is the difference to the executioner?
> 
> Your answers are very much appreciated.




Superior movement is the harrier. He moves very fast in combat, he defends very well against attacks of opportunity, he gets defense bonus based on the distance he has moved, can run and attack, he tumbles over the foes etc. That's the Harrier. The Executioner is more like an assassin, in a nutshell.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

Turanil said:
			
		

> Well, it looks like that Iron Heroes has very interesting premises: tokens, stunts, dangerous magic, no magical items, the classes, etc. It would certainly fit extremely well to use in a Conan's Hyboria setting. In fact, I would not be adverse to try this game someday, but only as a player. This seems as heavy to run as normal D&D, for which I have some difficulties past 10th level. Also it seems to entirely focus on combat, and I do not want to do only that in a game. Then, it seems overpowered. I don't see why the game could not be built with traditional BAB and saving throws, and d20 rate of gaining feats. Anyway, to each his own.




The more i'm reading, the more I'm thinking Conan. I'm was already toying with a campaign that blends Hyboria and Middle-earth (blasphemy, I know), and I think IH would be a good fit. Have been planning to use True20, so will have to decide.

I think it is more heavy to run than D&D. It even says in the book that 'combat takes longer'. It also says that much of the focus is on combat. But then again, it has some very very cool feats that are effective both in and out of combat.

I agree that as I'm reading it here and now, there seems to be no reason why it couldn't have beed done with standard BAB, saves etc. IH looks to me, so far at least, to be all or nothing. Either IH or D&D.
So I will have to talk to my players as well, of course. Even if we decide against IH, it is a goldmine of game design, that can be plundered again and again.


----------



## XCorvis (Jul 29, 2005)

Are there multiclassing rules?


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir (Jul 29, 2005)

What parts are OGL?


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

Talgian said:
			
		

> Also, is there any way to create a useable unarmed character? Not necessarily like the Monk, but, you know, someone who just uses their body as weapons?




If there is, I'm missing it. Seems strange, as you would think that an unarmed bad ass is iconic to IH.

I must be missing it....


----------



## EricNoah (Jul 29, 2005)

If the design's purpose is to remove the need for magic items, then logic suggests that the heroes will have to be more effective in other ways.  I'd like to see a D&D character, with appropriate magical gear, stacked up against an IH character with no magical gear and see how the numbers compare.  

If nothing else it should make for a very different "flavor" of D&D.  In particular, the stunt system should be very helpful.  It appears to be set up so it's kind of generic, and the DM has ultimate say as to how it works (which skill check will be used, essentially), but it encourages the player to a) pay attention to surroundings and circumstances, and b) describe clearly what he's going to try to do.  I think that will lead to players describing their combat maneuvers more frequently, and that's always a good thing in a role-playing game.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

XCorvis said:
			
		

> Are there multiclassing rules?




Free multiclassing. Special rules for defense to keep it balanced with excellent defense.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> If the design's purpose is to remove the need for magic items, then logic suggests that the heroes will have to be more effective in other ways.  I'd like to see a D&D character, with appropriate magical gear, stacked up against an IH character with no magical gear and see how the numbers compare.
> 
> If nothing else it should make for a very different "flavor" of D&D.  In particular, the stunt system should be very helpful.  It appears to be set up so it's kind of generic, and the DM has ultimate say as to how it works (which skill check will be used, essentially), but it encourages the player to a) pay attention to surroundings and circumstances, and b) describe clearly what he's going to try to do.  I think that will lead to players describing their combat maneuvers more frequently, and that's always a good thing in a role-playing game.




Agree on all counts. But since the systems IMO should be kept separate, the need for different BAB, saves might not be there.

Anyway, the stunt system does encourage cool descriptions etc. and the way spells are designed as well, I think roleplaying will benefit, as you suggest.


----------



## EricNoah (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> Agree on all counts. But since the systems IMO should be kept separate, the need for different BAB, saves might not be there.




One of the original selling points though was that you'd be able to use monsters from D&D/D20 with little effort (changing some of the special abilities, DR, etc.).  If that is achieved by having different numbers in the class charts, then so be it -- it's no biggie to me whether the numbers are the same as in D&D as long as they work.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> If there is, I'm missing it. Seems strange, as you would think that an unarmed bad ass is iconic to IH.
> 
> I must be missing it....




I wouldn't exactly say 'I've been missing it', Bob....

No martial arts would be a plus for me....


----------



## MacMathan (Jul 29, 2005)

I can see the need for the increased BAB and the Saves, as past level 10 a good portion of a standard characters total comes from magic items, i.e. a level 20 fighter probably has a +5 sword thus BAB +25. Most characters get resistance items to buff Saves so once again without magic an increase is needed to stay competitive. 

As far a mixing IH in with AE and 3.5 it sounds like the Mastering Iron Heroes book will give more of a break down on the mechanics and thus allow that sort of tinkering.

Anyhow I will just sit here and be jealous that my pre-order is days away.....  

Thanks for the info.


----------



## JPL (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> If there is, I'm missing it. Seems strange, as you would think that an unarmed bad ass is iconic to IH.
> 
> I must be missing it....




Is there perhaps a feat mastery chain [if that's the correct terminology] for Improved Unarmed Strike?  If not, maybe Mr. Mearls will throw us one along with the erratta.  Maybe that could be combined with the weapons master?

Talk, if you would, about the sample setting.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

Can't seem to find it.

I also can't find feat to do impossible feats of strength, though the book has a picture of a guy toppeling down a stone pillar...


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

JPL said:
			
		

> Talk, if you would, about the sample setting.




It's called the Swordlands. In a nutshell, humans were created by a powerful magic race known as the Masters. 
In time, the Masters destroyed themselves in a cataclysmic war, leaving only behind strange ruins and sinister relics. A few humans are more powerful than others, because they were designed by the Masters to be better servants. These are called the first.

Now, it's a hundred years since the war. The characters live in a world whose civilization teeters on the edge of destruction. Terrible monsters, left over from the Masters, and savage barbarians lurk just on the other side of a kingdom's borders, ready to tear down everything man has built. Humanity remains cloaked in ignorance, as few knows what lurks beyond the horizon.
Characters in the Swordlands are among the first to journey into the unknown.
New cults are rising, kingdoms change rulers, etc...


----------



## Particle_Man (Jul 29, 2005)

Does 25 BAB = 5 attacks/round?

How does an arcanist gather mana?


----------



## Particle_Man (Jul 29, 2005)

Do Pcs = The First?


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

+25 BAB = 4 attacks.

An arcanist doesn't gather mana per se   
It's just a term to describe the use of mana to cast spells. I think there's some erratta here, because I can't seem to find how you regain mana... Plus, the special abilities of the arcanist says 'mana pool' but there's no description of that ability. Mike?

and PC are not the first. They are powerful npcs, to be used as villains or patrons.


----------



## Kintara (Jul 29, 2005)

How many masteries go all the way from 2-10?  What are the general feats like?

More feat info, all around!  Please.

You get it early, and so you now have an important duty, to placate everyone!


----------



## JohnSnow (Jul 29, 2005)

You suck!  

Okay, now that I have that out of the way, I'll have to sate my desire with questions as I await delivery from the warrior woman's bookstore...



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> "Brigit blasts a group of skeletons with a 30-foot cone of flame. The minimum mastery for the cone is 7, while the fire damage is mastery 1. Thus, the base cost of the spell is 8 mana: 7 for the the area of effect and 1 (half of 1 is 0.5, which rounds up to 1. always round up when figuring mana costs). She wants the spell to inflict 4d6 points of damage, for an additional 4 mana.
> 
> The blast's total cost becomes 12 mana. Normally the channeling DC for a 12-mana spell is 17. However, for this method you double the mana spent on amage to determine the DC. In this case, the DC is now 21: base DC 5, plus 7 for the area of effect, plus 1 for the fire energy type, plus 8 for spending 4 mana on damage."




Okay...this makes LOTS of sense - simple and intuitive. Sounds similar to the system in WFRP and the one from _Black Company_ (but less complex) as well. So there are specified mana costs for various areas of effect (I imagine a 30' cone is more than a 10' cone? or a 30' line?), energy types (fire and what else?), and damage increases. Since every mana spent on damage adds 2 to the casting DC, I think you'll see fewer direct damage spells. I assume there are mana costs for the non-damaging spells as well? How are those laid out?



			
				Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> I wouldn't exactly say 'I've been missing it', Bob....
> 
> No martial arts would be a plus for me...




 Great movie!

Creating an Unarmed Combat Mastery Style by adapting the martial arts (and/or brawl) feats and talents from _d20 Modern_ would be trivially easy. If I decide I want it, I'll put it in.



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> I think it is more heavy to run than D&D. It even says in the book that 'combat takes longer'. It also says that much of the focus is on combat. But then again, it has some very very cool feats that are effective both in and out of combat.




I'm not sure combat "taking longer" is quite so bad. If IH manages to make combat an entertaining and interesting part of the narrative of the game, then it's OK if it takes longer. I think part of the issue people have with D&D combat as it currently exists is that it takes you "out of the story" and dumps you into tactical tabletop gaming. If the IH rules make combat MORE flavorful, most people will probably be okay with it taking longer, because it'll actually be more FUN.

As an analogy, I didn't mind that Peter Jackson spent more of the "screen time" on the battles in _The Lord of the Rings_ movies than Tolkien spent "page time" on them in the novels. Tolkien focused on the character's banter and the general events, because battles are mostly boring to read about. However, they're much more fun to watch. If these new rules mean that _Iron Heroes_ battles play more like the action movie and less like the book narrative, it should be about the same.

Just my opinion.


----------



## Erekose13 (Jul 29, 2005)

One thing from a playtesters point of view (i dont have the full copy yet).

The feats of strength should be at the end of the skills section if I remember correctly.


----------



## JohnSnow (Jul 29, 2005)

Erekose13 said:
			
		

> One thing from a playtesters point of view (i dont have the full copy yet).
> 
> The feats of strength should be at the end of the skills section if I remember correctly.




Well, the table of contents mentions "Ability Checks" as the last item in *Chapter 4: Skills and Ability Checks*, so that's probably where it is.

But I'm just guessing.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

28 feats go to mastery 10, although not all of them have ten tiers.

The generel feats are basically core rulebook feats likearmor prof., great fortitude, skill focus and skill affinity (+2 to 2 skills of choice).

I will give the short descriptions for two random feats. For the rest, you must wait til August 1st 

Razor Fiend [Finesse]
1: Gain Quick Draw with dagger; full attacks gain extra dagger attack.
4: Full attacks gain two extra dagger attacks.
6: +1 damage bonus with dagger attacks for every previous dagger attack that hit
8: Full attacks gain one extra dagger attack.

War Leader [Tactics]
1: Strategy token pool; token grants allies +4 flanking bonus.
2: Token grants ally extra AoO.
3: Gain strategy tokens as move action.
4: Token removes flatfootedness from ally.
5: Tokens grant allies attack bonus of +2 per attacker on chosen foe.
6: Tokens grant allies defense bonus of +1 per adjacent ally.
7: Gain strategy tokens as free action
8: Tokens grant allies +1d6 damage against chosen foe.
9: Tokens grant ally immediate extra standard action.
10: Tokens grant allies attack bonus. (a lot!)


----------



## Darrin Drader (Jul 29, 2005)

Um.... yeah, I want this book. I really, really, really want this book.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

Erekose13 said:
			
		

> One thing from a playtesters point of view (i dont have the full copy yet).
> 
> The feats of strength should be at the end of the skills section if I remember correctly.




And they are!!
And I really like those rules, very simple and flexible, yet wholly adequate.

To get a +2 bonus to an ability check, suffer 5 hit points of strain damage. No upper limit, so anything's possible!

Cool


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

JohnSnow said:
			
		

> Okay...this makes LOTS of sense - simple and intuitive. Sounds similar to the system in WFRP and the one from _Black Company_ (but less complex) as well. So there are specified mana costs for various areas of effect (I imagine a 30' cone is more than a 10' cone? or a 30' line?), energy types (fire and what else?), and damage increases. Since every mana spent on damage adds 2 to the casting DC, I think you'll see fewer direct damage spells. I assume there are mana costs for the non-damaging spells as well? How are those laid out?




Well, you need a certain mastery rank to achive certain effects. Fire requires mastery 1, Cold requires mastery 4 etc.
A ray requires mastery 2, cone 15 feet mastery 3. The mana cost is highest requirement plus half the other requirements.
Damage requires 1 per 1d6. You can max. deal your mastery rank in d6's of dam. (10 at 20th level.).
The other spell effects follow a similar pattern. Alter Mind, duration, number of targets, creature type etc. affects mana cost and required rank.


----------



## JohnSnow (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> Well, you need a certain mastery rank to achive certain effects. Fire requires mastery 1, Cold requires mastery 4 etc.
> A ray requires mastery 2, cone 15 feet mastery 3. The mana cost is highest requirement plus half the other requirements.
> Damage requires 1 per 1d6. You can max. deal your mastery rank in d6's of dam. (10 at 20th level.).
> The other spell effects follow a similar pattern. Alter Mind, duration, number of targets, creature type etc. affects mana cost and required rank.




Sounds like mastery levels replace spell levels...with 1-10 instead of 0-9 (a weird D&Dism to say the least).

So a 6d6, 30' Cone of Cold would cost (7 + 4/2 + 6) = 15 mana. And its DC would be 15 + 5 + 6 (because damage counts twice) = 26. And this would require at least a mastery level of 7 to cast.  So does your Primary Spell Mastery follow the same progression as Primary feat mastery? (i.e. Mastery 7 at 11th level). 

EDIT: Actually I was just noticing this...



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> An arcanist chooses at 1st level which scool to be his primary and another to be his secondary. At 3rd level he gets a tertiary scool and at 5th level he gets access to all scools. This determines his spell mastery ratings in the various schools.
> The mastery determines what is possible to do with the spell.




And while checking the hunter, I noticed that he gets Mastery 2 in Tactics at level 1 + Mastery 1 in Lore. Then he gets Mastery 1 in weapons at level 3 and gets access to other feats at level 5. Awfully familiar...

So I'm guessing that Mike's canny enough that he used the exact same system for spell mastery that he did for feat mastery. He's often said that Spells and Feats are the primary "level-based" effects in the game.

On that issue, how does feat mastery stack when multiclassing?


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

oops, you get mastery 10 at 17th level.   
So yeah, it follows feat mastery.

Haven't found feat mastery and multi-classing, but I guess it just follows your class level, and stacks with other class levels that advance in that feat mastery. Like the stacking of uncanny dodge or sneak attack, I guess.


----------



## Tear44 (Jul 29, 2005)

JohnSnow said:
			
		

> I'm not sure combat "taking longer" is quite so bad. If IH manages to make combat an entertaining and interesting part of the narrative of the game, then it's OK if it takes longer.





I agree with this 100%. 

That being said, what if the reference to comabt taking longer isn't in terms of acctual time, but an increased number of turns? IH characters will be spending more "time" evaluating enemies, looking for ropes to climb and setting up for stunts. It maybe more of a more activities in combat causeing it to carry over in to more turns?

Or maybe it is just longer.


----------



## Kintara (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> 28 feats go to mastery 10, although not all of them have ten tiers.



Uhhuhuhuhuhuh...Tuhwenty Eight....

I'm so...happy....

Those two random feats are awesome.  Razor Fiend.  God, a TWF (oh god TWF Mastery....) Weapon Master will be doing an utterly insane number of dagger attacks.  All those hits....

If I get any happier, alll my posts will be stunned ellipses.  This is going to be better than I imagined.  I just know it.


----------



## JPL (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> And they are!!
> And I really like those rules, very simple and flexible, yet wholly adequate.
> 
> To get a +2 bonus to an ability check, suffer 5 hit points of strain damage. No upper limit, so anything's possible!
> ...




Like that time I tried to deadlift 195 for five reps.  Not a cleric in sight, either.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

JPL said:
			
		

> Like that time I tried to deadlift 195 for five reps.  Not a cleric in sight, either.




JPL... of Legacy


----------



## Particle_Man (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> You can max. deal your mastery rank in d6's of dam. (10 at 20th level.)




Hmmm...so there is no equivalent to the 18th level archmage casting an 18d6 damage spell?


----------



## Kunimatyu (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorcica, any chance we could hear about the Armiger class?

The Indomitable Wall of Steel technique in particular sounds neat.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Jul 29, 2005)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Hmmm...so there is no equivalent to the 18th level archmage casting an 18d6 damage spell?




This is a gross oversimplification, but I am not at all surprised to find that "caster level" seems to advance at about half the rate of regular D&D.


----------



## JohnSnow (Jul 29, 2005)

I think my head's gonna explode while I wait...

I want this thing in my little paws NOWWWWW!!!

C'mon Amazon...what does "pre-shipping" cost? :\



			
				Kintara said:
			
		

> Those two random feats are awesome. Razor Fiend. God, a TWF (oh god TWF Mastery....) Weapon Master will be doing an utterly insane number of dagger attacks. All those hits....




Or just imagine what a TWF, flanking, executioner with combat expertise feats could do (Sneak Attack 15d6  ...)

The mind reels...


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

Armiger:
Average BAB, poor defense.
The tank. He gets higher max. dex in armor and reduces action check penalties. Armor also feels lighter on him, counting as up to two categories less (heavy becomes light), and he can carry great loads.
He gets an armor pool, which fills up by the points of damage his armor absorb.
He can use these armor tokens to power armor abilities like Sentinel's Defense (spend 4 tokens to as a free action to use your armors DR as a bonus to grapple, strength and base attack checks for number of rounds equal to con mod.) or Indomitable Wall of Iron (Opponent must Will save DC 10 + half your level + con mod + number of tokens spent. If failed opponent suffer -2 morale penalty.
He also gets uncanny defense and DR vs. magic attacks.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

JohnSnow said:
			
		

> I think my head's gonna explode while I wait...
> 
> I want this thing in my little paws NOWWWWW!!!
> 
> ...




That would be 8 attacks with 10d6 sneak damage. Combined with the unholy amount of AoO's one can get with the Combat Reflexes Mastery, it gets pretty nasty....


----------



## Kunimatyu (Jul 29, 2005)

Does the armiger have any way to force/taunt an enemy to keep them focused on him?


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 29, 2005)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Does the armiger have any way to force/taunt an enemy to keep them focused on him?



 yes, some of the armor token abilities does that.


----------



## Macbeth (Jul 29, 2005)

Wow. Just wow. Why must there be more d20 games I want?

Ah well, thanks for the info. This is sounding more and more like something I want.


----------



## Kaos (Jul 29, 2005)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Hmmm...so there is no equivalent to the 18th level archmage casting an 18d6 damage spell?




Apparently not.  OTOH, there also doesn't seem to be the equivelant of the 18th level archmage doing a 'spelldump' in one fight and being completely out of gas for the next one.

If that's true, I'd call it even


----------



## Huiyin (Jul 30, 2005)

*Clarify please...*

Razor Fiend is +1 damage per each attack that already hit that round, that combat, v. that foe... ?  And you said you could not figure out how mana was recovered - didn't you earlier say it was built up round to round?

Also, could you give us a sense of what the Necromancy school encompasses with its effects?  Its sort of the most thematic as opposed to mechanical, so it could do healing, damage, summons, raising the dead, talking to the dead...

Thanks very much.

Hui


----------



## Agamon (Jul 30, 2005)

*drool*  This is just what my homebrew relaunch needed.  Can't wait.

Only problem is my homebrew had a certain focus on clerics.  I may try to design a new IH-style cleric-like class that is a better fighter but not a spell caster, per se, rather than try to convert the cleric.

Speaking of which, how does IH deal with undead?  D&D assumes a party has a cleric to turn them, I assume they just have to hacked up now?


----------



## Dr. Strangemonkey (Jul 30, 2005)

This is going to sound oddly specific, but what are the feat masteries for the executioner?

Thank-you for doing this, btw.


----------



## GentleGiant (Jul 30, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> The Dark Gods of Scandinavia are powerful indeed!



Okay, ud med sproget, hvor har du købt den henne??? Huh? Huh? HUH? HUH!? (that's enough Donkey!) - JEG VIL OGSÅ HAVE DEN!
Jeg går ud fra at det er hardcopy udgaven du har og ikke en pdf version.

(for those who don't master our mythic language: Okay, spill the beans, where did you buy it??? - I WANT IT TOO!
I assume it's the hardcopy edition you have and not the pdf version)


----------



## A'koss (Jul 30, 2005)

Just catching up here and had a few more questions...

1. Reserve Points - any differences between IH's and Unearthed Arcana's versions?

2. Dying - Do they use D&D's -10 limit or AE's -Con?

3. Hit Point recovery - Any changes to the rate of natural healing? Feats to improve?

4. Weapon Masters - What are their feat masteries and armor proficiencies?

Thanks again!


----------



## Warrior Psychic (Jul 30, 2005)

Thanks for all the hard work you have been putting into this thread, I'm sure it is tedious.  

Now, that you're all buttered up ... can you tell me more about the Executioner?  From what I have heard so far, it is basically everything that I have always wanted from a character class EVER.

And can you tell me more about their "traits" (you know, the substitute for Race in IH).  I have seen some neat pictures of the "Northborn".


----------



## frankthedm (Jul 30, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> And they are!!
> And I really like those rules, very simple and flexible, yet wholly adequate.
> 
> To get a +2 bonus to an ability check, suffer 5 hit points of strain damage. No upper limit, so anything's possible!
> ...



Do you choose before or after you roll?

MAN that is sooooo cool. it would be way broken in D&D, but given that healning magic [if there] can fail and fail BADLY in IH, It is a great addition


----------



## Kaos (Jul 30, 2005)

Waitaminutehere...


			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> War Leader [Tactics]
> 1: Strategy token pool; token grants allies +4 flanking bonus.




Is that just a +4 bonus that won't stack with actual flanking, or does that grant full 'sneak attack now available' flanking?


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 30, 2005)

Ok, I'm back. I will try and answer the questions all at once.

Razor Fiend: The damage is for each previous dagger attack that hit your opponent. Bonus only gained for attacks that hit during your current action.

Necromancy has the following methods: Animate Dead, Healing Hands. So necromancy can animate the dead, but it is also the healing scool.

Undead: No turning..... hack them! (there are no gods in IH)

Feat Mastery Executioner: Finesse and Power to 9th, Lore to 8th and all others to 7.

Where I got it?: In Copenhagen (sådan er det at bo i Jylland!   )

Reserve Points: Can't remember AE, but here it's equal to max. hits, you can use 1 Reserve to heal 1 hp over 1 minute (no combat). 1 reserve to heal 4 points of non-lethal. Eight hours rest gives con score + level back in reserve. Full day rest gives double con + level.

Healing: eight hour rest = 1 hp per level. Full day = 2 x level. Healing lore Feat Mastery can improve healing.

Dying: -10.

Feat Mastery Weapon Master: Choose one primary and one secondary from list: Armor, Defense, Finesse or Power.
Armor Prof.: light, medium, all shields. (simple and martial weapons).

War Leader: Spend 1 token to grant two allies a +4 flanking bonus instead of the usual +2. They must form a flank on their own. The bonus does not extend to other flanks they make.

*phew*


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 30, 2005)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Do you choose before or after you roll?




I don't know. Looks like you choose before you roll, but it doesn't say so (at least, I haven't found it).

But I think it would be best if you decide after. Then when you know you *must* move that boulder and the GM goes "...not quite there yet. another 5 hp damage?", there's some tough choices to make.

Looking at the rules now, I see they are different for each ability score. Fx. +2 to dex for a -2 to dex for one hour afterwards.
Not sure if I like different systems for different abilities.


----------



## A'koss (Jul 30, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> Necromancy has the following methods: Animate Dead, Healing Hands. So necromancy can animate the dead, but it is also the healing scool.



So... there is magical healing after all?



> Undead: No turning..... hack them! (there are no gods in IH)



 



> Reserve Points: Can't remember AE, but here it's equal to max. hits, you can use 1 Reserve to heal 1 hp over 1 minute (no combat). 1 reserve to heal 4 points of non-lethal. Eight hours rest gives con score + level back in reserve. Full day rest gives double con + level.
> 
> Healing: eight hour rest = 1 hp per level. Full day = 2 x level. Healing lore Feat Mastery can improve healing.



So, a 5th level character with a 16 Con regains 37 Reserve and 10 Regular HPs on a full day's rest. Nice, rapid recovery shouldn't be an issue in IH. 

On the topic of HPs, what is the spread in class HPs? 1d4+2 to 1d4+8?



> Dying: -10.



Kinda surprised Mike didn't go AE's route here... I've always preferred it over D&D's.



> Feat Mastery Weapon Master: Choose one primary and one secondary from list: Armor, Defense, Finesse or Power.
> Armor Prof.: light, medium, all shields. (simple and martial weapons).



Cool!! I was certain the WM was strictly going to be on the light side... this is a very welcome surprise indeed.

Cheers!


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 30, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> So... there is magical healing after all?
> 
> On the topic of HPs, what is the spread in class HPs? 1d4+2 to 1d4+8?




Yup and yup.


----------



## Tolen Mar (Jul 30, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> Kinda surprised Mike didn't go AE's route here... I've always preferred it over D&D's.




Me 2.  I was really surprised when the playtest docs showed up and that was missing.  On the other hand, it is trivially easy to add in again.


----------



## EricNoah (Jul 30, 2005)

If you feel like whipping up a low-level character or two and sharing here, that might be fun to see.


----------



## Capellan (Jul 30, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> Dying: -10.




That's not the whole story.  Read *death's door*, page 186.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 30, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> If you feel like whipping up a low-level character or two and sharing here, that might be fun to see.




Hmmm.... maybe.   



			
				Capellan said:
			
		

> That's not the whole story.  Read *death's door*, page 186.



True.

You don't die at -10. You must make a Fort save each round vs. DC = your negative hp. (you lose 1 hp each round until stabilized).


Just noticed that the character sheet has an entry for spell failure % due to armor, even though it says in the rules, that armor generates no ASF.


----------



## EricNoah (Jul 30, 2005)

Sorry if this has been answered -- do shields contribute DR or defense?


----------



## Red Baron (Jul 30, 2005)

Passive defense. Your skill in Shield Mastery (feats) can increase your active defense with the shield...


----------



## EricNoah (Jul 30, 2005)

Hmm, so now I need to know about passive and active defense.  Sounds like flat-footed vs regular AC in D&D parlance...


----------



## Dr. Strangemonkey (Jul 30, 2005)

so shields are how you get passive defense?

Excellent.

Thanks for the info on the executioner.

Now I'm wondering if the man-at-arms gets access to heavy armor or the armiger really is the only class that gets heavy armor initially.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 30, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> If you feel like whipping up a low-level character or two and sharing here, that might be fun to see.



 Dalan, 2nd level Executioner

Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 10.
Hit points 18, Reserve 18.
Defense: 18; DR 1d3/magic
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +5

Traits: Dexterous (x2)
Feats: Simple & Martial weapons, Light armor, Weapon Finesse 1, Weapon Finesse 2, Razor Fiend 1
Special qualities: Executioners Pool, Executioners Eye, Hindering Cut, Sneak Attack +1d6.

Attack: +7 MW dagger (1d4+1); Full attack +5/+5 MW dagger (1d4+1)

Skills (ranks): Climb, Jump, Swim, Listen, earch, Sense Motive, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Gather information and Disguise 5 ranks each. Survival and Tumble 3 ranks each. Use Rope and Ride 2 ranks each.

Equipment: MW dagger, MW light steel shield, MW studded leather armor.

Executioners Pool: Automatically 1 token each encounter, rises with level.
Executioners Eye: Make Sense Motive as Free, Move, Standard or Full ronud action. Opponent must oppose your roll, you get modifier according to type of action taken. If succesful, you get two tokens against that enemy.
Hindering Cut: Spend at least 1 token. If you hit, opponent must Fort save vs. DC 10 plus half your Exe level + Wis + tokens + sneak attack dice. If failed suffer -1 to attack and defense or 5 foot penalty to movement. Multiple cuts stack.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 30, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Hmm, so now I need to know about passive and active defense.  Sounds like flat-footed vs regular AC in D&D parlance...




Passive: Natural armor, shields, size.
Active: Base defense, dex, Feats and Training, Shields (the ability to use the shield is active, i.e. the extra shield defense bonus from feats)


----------



## Staffan (Jul 30, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> Shiel Mastery feat chain makes shiels _very_ useful indeed.



The feats I've seen in D&D to make shields more useful have all (well, almost all) been focused on using them as weapons (e.g. being able to shield bash without losing the AC bonus). Please tell me Iron Heroes understands that shields are *defensive* and that feats that make them better should primarily make them better defensively and not offensively.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 30, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> Please tell me Iron Heroes understands that shields are *defensive* and that feats that make them better should primarily make them better defensively and not offensively.




Told.


----------



## EricNoah (Jul 30, 2005)

thanks for both the sample character and the active/passive defense info.  Can't wait to figure it all out.


----------



## Dragonblade (Jul 30, 2005)

So how do the Arcanists stand up vs. the fighting classes? It seems like if the Arcanist is as weak physically as a D&D mage, and can no longer lay down heavy fire then they are just going to get their tail handed to them.

Can they compensate by casting multiple low-level/low-damage attack spells in a round?

Although, I would prefer easier integration with standard D&D, this book is really appealing to me. It seems like this book would be perfect to run a Conan, Warhammer, Lone Wolf, or especially a Dark Sun game.

Hmm, just need some psionic rules, a mechanic for defiling magic, and potentially a Gladiator class....


----------



## Dr. Strangemonkey (Jul 30, 2005)

That is totally sweet.


----------



## Kintara (Jul 30, 2005)

Hmm, so how does a high level character have a decent passive bonus to defense if you only can add base shield bonus, size, and NA? Boy, catching someone flat-footed, like in an ambush, is going to be brutal, brutal, brutal.


----------



## Michael Tree (Jul 30, 2005)

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> So how do the Arcanists stand up vs. the fighting classes? It seems like if the Arcanist is as weak physically as a D&D mage, and can no longer lay down heavy fire then they are just going to get their tail handed to them.



I'm curious about this as well.  Are there arcanist-specific feats that help them become more interesting spellcasters, or more powerful in their area of focus?  What are their feat masteries like?  Is it possible to make a decent fighter/spellcaster type?

Aside from spellcasting, what class abilities do arcanists get?

What are the non-damaging spell effects like?  What sorts of enchantment, transmutation, & conjuration effects are possible?



			
				Dragonblade said:
			
		

> Hmm, just need some psionic rules, a mechanic for defiling magic, and potentially a Gladiator class....



Ooo yes.  A defiling mechanic would be even easier to create than in standard D&D:  There's already a "gathering mana" mechanic, so for defiling you just give a boost in mana-gathering speed in return for environmental damage.

As for psionics... to keep the DS distinction between psionics and magic, you could use Green Ronin's Psychic's Handbook.  It's skill and feat based, so like DS psionics anyone could possibly learn it.  All you'd need to do is buff up the Psychic class to IH standards and you're good to go.  The skill group rules would work well with it: The Psychic class would get access to all the skills in a discipline he has access to as a Skill Group, so for example he could buy 1 rank in all the Telepathy powers for 1 skill point, instead of buying them separately, if he has the feat that lets him learn Telepathy powers.

I definitely wouldn't make a gladiator class.  After all, any IH class could be a spectacular gladiator, each with its own different signature style.


----------



## EricNoah (Jul 30, 2005)

I bet there are class features, feats, etc. that allow you to keep your base defense bonus, dex, etc. as passive defenses  -- like uncanny dodge does in D&D.  Maybe one of those feat mastery chains...

------

On a related note, do creatures get defense bonuses?  or do they just rely on natural armor?  I am curious about converting simple D&D monsters (example -- giant lizard or giant spider).  It's looking like maybe only the defense is something I really need to worry about.  Let me take a stab at it...



> Animal, Lizard, Monitor       (CR 2, HD 3d8+9)
> N Medium Animal
> Init +2   |   Spd 30 or Swim 30
> Senses Low-light Vision (Ex) | Listen +4, Spot +4
> ...




would become...



> Animal, Lizard, Monitor       (CR 2, HD 3d8+9)
> N Medium Animal
> Init +2   |   Spd 30 or Swim 30
> Senses Low-light Vision (Ex) | Listen +4, Spot +4
> ...




Edit: in other words, with creatures, FF AC is basically the same as passive defense?


----------



## Aldarc (Jul 30, 2005)

*Re:*

I am not terribly worred though about the combat focus of mechanics, since I believe that it is not the role of the mechanics to provide the role-playing aspects, since that it is the responsibility of the players and the DM. 

Overall, I am highly looking forward to this. I am sensing a campaign world influenced by Diablo and Berserk in the future.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 30, 2005)

First of all, there's no 'gathering magic' mechanic.
It's just what the book calls it, when you draw mana to cast spells. Depending on your arcanist level, you can 'gather' a cetain amout each day without ill effects.

The arcanist gets bonus feat and aspects of power. This can fx. be bounding step ( you call an air elemental to you for +20 to jump) or Eldritch Darts (1d6 + int per dart, one dart per attack) and more. There are greater asoects as well.

He also gets the ability to make dark pacts that grant a +10 bonus to be used all at once or in bits during a week. This costs either money or a living sentient sacrifice   

and the Arcanist has a mana pool, but it's not described (erratta anyone?)..  :\ 

as for monsters, the book barely mentions them. guess that's what the bestiary is for. But it says about armor that that basically everything that's lost when flatfooted is passive armor.

I could have sworn that there were some options about some of the nat. armor being defense and the rest being DR, but can't seem to find it.... Arck... Well, I'll post it when I find it again.


----------



## Agamon (Jul 30, 2005)

Aldarc said:
			
		

> I am not terribly worred though about the combat focus of mechanics, since I believe that it is not the role of the mechanics to provide the role-playing aspects, since that it is the responsibility of the players and the DM.
> 
> Overall, I am highly looking forward to this. I am sensing a campaign world influenced by Diablo and Berserk in the future.




Well said.  This game will obviously facilitate a game that focuses on combat very well.  But using the rules to create spectacular combat scenes in a role-playing intensive game is one of the reasons I'm excited about it (that and no magic trinkets required )


----------



## Michael Tree (Jul 30, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> First of all, there's no 'gathering magic' mechanic.
> It's just what the book calls it, when you draw mana to cast spells. Depending on your arcanist level, you can 'gather' a cetain amout each day without ill effects.
> 
> The arcanist gets bonus feat and aspects of power. This can fx. be bounding step ( you call an air elemental to you for +20 to jump) or Eldritch Darts (1d6 + int per dart, one dart per attack) and more. There are greater asoects as well.
> ...



Ah, so the drawing mana is just flavor text for making a roll to cast a spell?

The aspects of power sound like they should be fun, and a safe option for arcanists that don't want to risk spellcasting.  Do arcanists get any combat feat mastery levels?  I could see an arcanist specializing in eldritch dart throwing, for example.


----------



## A'koss (Jul 31, 2005)

*Catching up...*



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> You don't die at -10. You must make a Fort save each round vs. DC = your negative hp. (you lose 1 hp each round until stabilized).



Neat... but it does raise a couple of questions. If you are "stabilized" at less than -10 HPs do you still need to make Fort Saves every round? Or do you have to recover to -9 or better first? If the latter, is there any "quick patch" healing in IH (Healing Skill/Feats)?



> First of all, there's no 'gathering magic' mechanic.
> It's just what the book calls it, when you draw mana to cast spells. Depending on your arcanist level, you can 'gather' a cetain amout _*each day*_ without ill effects.
> 
> He also gets the ability to make dark pacts that grant a +10 bonus to be used all at once or in bits _*during a week*_.



[Emphasis mine]

I really had hoped there wouldn't be any _*per day/week*_ conditions on any of the core class abilities. This is the first strike against the "balance against the encounter" game design touted by IH and I'm a little disappointed spellcasting has gone this route.



			
				EricNoah said:
			
		

> I bet there are class features, feats, etc. that allow you to keep your base defense bonus, dex, etc. as passive defenses -- like uncanny dodge does in D&D. Maybe one of those feat mastery chains...



I hope there is _some_ defense against defenselessness!  

Cheers!


----------



## DrSpunj (Jul 31, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> I really had hoped there wouldn't be any _*per day/week*_ conditions on any of the core class abilities. This is the first strike against the "balance against the encounter" game design touted by IH and I'm a little disappointed spellcasting has gone this route.




I noticed that too, *A'koss*, and feel the same way. Up until now I've been imagining a mechanic similar to Magic: the Gathering where each player gets more mana by laying/tapping into land. Obviously it'd be a bit different, but since we've seen other classes like the Archer (aiming) and Executioner (studying) gain tokens using actions, I figured the Arcanist might gain mana similarly, by gaining so much mana after concentrating/gathering mana as a free action, move action, etc. (And similarly, felt he might lose some or all of them after taking damage if he didn't make a Conc check.)

What would stop an Arcanist from walking around with mana all the time? A mechanic equivalent to mana burn, along with the fact that if casting any spell is potentially dangerous then there's no guaranteed way to let any extra mana you've gathered dissipate harmlessly. Obviously feats and/or class abilities could mitigate some of these potential drawbacks.

Now, I don't have the book yet  (hope to pick it up from my FLGS Monday! ), and I'm going to try and keep an open mind until I've read the thing, but I'll certainly be interested to see if I can tweak the Arcanist along these lines to lose the _each day & during a week_ mechanics.

Also, a big *Thank You!* to *Sorcica* for reading & typing like a mad man to feed our insatiable (and envious) IH appetites. 

Thanks,

DrSpunj


----------



## Dr. Strangemonkey (Jul 31, 2005)

> I really had hoped there wouldn't be any per day/week conditions on any of the core class abilities. This is the first strike against the "balance against the encounter" game design touted by IH and I'm a little disappointed spellcasting has gone this route.




Well, I can't speak to the complaint of impurity in the 'balance by encounter' design, but the arcanist seems to have plenty of magical abilities with no real frequency limitations, at the least one hopes the arcane darts are not completely unique.  

I would guess that the decision to keep some resources that have to be managed over a series of encounters was a conscious decision.  One similar to their decision to keep some classes that have no inherent resource management mechanisms at all.


----------



## MacMathan (Jul 31, 2005)

I think the challenge with spell casters is that, depending on spell list, they can use their abilities outside of combat, where as the melee types seem to only be able to build tokens during a fight.

If a caster could just cast spells all day outside of combat via using an action to gain mana the spells would have to be very limited to prevent abuse, look at some of the issues that have come up with Warlock abilities from CArc.

That said I would like to see away around the day/week limits, maybe if the spell failure rate was pretty high, of course that would be bad in combat and not make them very fun to play so it is a hard call.

Of course I am mainly interested in the melee classes in IH anyways...


----------



## Dragonblade (Jul 31, 2005)

Hmm, I too consider any class ability that has per day or per week limitations a flaw in what otherwise sounds like a very cool class.


----------



## Aldarc (Jul 31, 2005)

> He also gets the ability to make dark pacts that grant a +10 bonus to be used all at once or in bits during a week. This costs either money or a living sentient sacrifice



I don't see this as a flaw. I see it more as a temporary infusion that lasts for a week. So the power dissipates after the given time if it is not used.


----------



## SixFootGnome (Jul 31, 2005)

*Traits?*

How many traits are there?  Any chance you could give us a list of traits, or some standouts that we haven't seen yet?


----------



## DrSpunj (Jul 31, 2005)

MacMathan said:
			
		

> If a caster could just cast spells all day outside of combat via using an action to gain mana the spells would have to be very limited to prevent abuse, look at some of the issues that have come up with Warlock abilities from CArc.




I'm afraid I haven't had a chance to see a Warlock in play (except in WoW ) so I might have to search for a few threads about them and any issues you're referring to, but I can certainly see your point.



			
				MacMathan said:
			
		

> That said I would like to see away around the day/week limits, maybe if the spell failure rate was pretty high, of course that would be bad in combat and not make them very fun to play so it is a hard call.




Yeah, I'm not sure how to balance it, but I would love to find something that works both in & out of combat. I'm anxious to read IH to see what Mearls has done here, but that's just one among many, many things. At least I'm fairly busy this weekend with work so I don't feel like I'm just sitting here waiting for it. :\ 

Thanks,

DrSpunj


----------



## mearls (Jul 31, 2005)

IIRC, the arcanist's abilities that are limited to X times per/Y timed period are tied to his dark pact. In this case (again, IIRC), he's asking a demonic power for help in casting the spell. In this case, the mechanic made sense to me to represent the very real, almost social link between the demonic entity and the arcanist.

It isn't that the arcanist needs to rest or refocus. The limiting factor is that the demonic entity only bothers to answer once in a while. It's like ringing up a friend for help moving. You can only call so often without straining the relationship.

(Again, this is all IIRC. I haven't looked at IH in quite a long time.)


----------



## Aldarc (Jul 31, 2005)

Thanks for the answer, Mike. That should put to rest some people's fears about the ability.


----------



## A'koss (Jul 31, 2005)

Indeed, thanks for jumping in and clarifying this point Mike.  



			
				mearls said:
			
		

> (Again, this is all IIRC. I haven't looked at IH in quite a long time.)



 Maybe Sorcica can take a closer look at the rules tomorrow and see if there's something he may have missed...

Cheers!


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 31, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> Indeed, thanks for jumping in and clarifying this point Mike.
> 
> Maybe Sorcica can take a closer look at the rules tomorrow and see if there's something he may have missed...
> 
> Cheers!




Certainly can!

Like I've said, the arcane pact offers a +1 to +10 bonus (but see below). It costs 100gp plus either 250 gp x bonus wanted or the sacrifice of a living sentient humanoid.

Now this is from the book. "You can make a pact once a week, but you cannot gain the benefits of of more than one pact at a time. The maximum bonus you can gain equals your class level."

I'm confused. Does this means that you can have more than one pact 'in effect', waiting to be used. And that the total number of plusses stored is equal to your class level.
I think so, it's not that clearly described.

But, if you ask me, I don't hink it would be terribly unbalanced to skp the weekly limit, since it has a cost attached to it anyway.

As I've also said, the arcanist does have a mana pool, but there's no description of it, so I have no idea how it works, in or out of combat.
An arcanist has a daily mana limit, though, which is the mana he can safely gather in a day. It ranges from 12 mana at 1st level, to 70 mana at 20th.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 31, 2005)

DrSpunj said:
			
		

> Also, a big *Thank You!* to *Sorcica* for reading & typing like a mad man to feed our insatiable (and envious) IH appetites.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> DrSpunj




 Well thank you.


----------



## A'koss (Jul 31, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> Certainly can!
> 
> Like I've said, the arcane pact offers a +1 to +10 bonus (but see below). It costs 100gp plus either 250 gp x bonus wanted or the sacrifice of a living sentient humanoid.
> 
> ...



It just means that you can't just make 8 pacts and give yourself a huge stored bonus if you happen to have a couple of months off... As I read it, you can only have 1 pact in effect (stored) until you use it's benefits up and no more than 1/week. 



> But, if you ask me, I don't hink it would be terribly unbalanced to skp the weekly limit, since it has a cost attached to it anyway.



Probably not at lower levels, but possibly at higher levels depending on how much treasure IH gives out...



> As I've also said, the arcanist does have a mana pool, but there's no description of it, so I have no idea how it works, in or out of combat.
> An arcanist has a daily mana limit, though, which is the mana he can safely gather_* in a day*_. It ranges from 12 mana at 1st level, to 70 mana at 20th.



[Again, emphasis mine]

Hmm... so either Mike _is_ remembering the rules wrong, or the rules themselves are wrong. Could the mana pool be referring to the "daily mana limit"? Does the daily limit seem artificially low - would it make more sense if it were per encounter or even per spell?

Thanks for having a closer look at this Sorcica.

Cheers!


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 31, 2005)

> It just means that you can't just make 8 pacts and give yourself a huge stored bonus if you happen to have a couple of months off... As I read it, you can only have 1 pact in effect (stored) until you use it's benefits up and no more than 1/week.




Ah... but then what does it mean that you can only have a number of plusses stored equal to your class level. What about levels 11-20 then (I ought to mention that this ability becomes available at 9th level.



> Hmm... so either Mike is remembering the rules wrong, or the rules themselves are wrong. Could the mana pool be referring to the "daily mana limit"? Does the daily limit seem artificially low - would it make more sense if it were per encounter or even per spell?




Arcanists start with two schools of magic, a primary and a secondary. (it says you start with three one place, but this is obviously a mistake.
Then it says you have a mana limit. 1st level, it's 12. In the text, it says that your level determines the limit to the amout of mana you can gather at any one time. Then it refers you to the chapter on magic.
Here it says, that to cast the spell, you must gather mana. "When you use mana you reduce your total available mana by the amount spent on the spell."
It then goes on with what happens if you exceed your limit etc.

So I'm not any closer to a clue. Apparently, it's the amount of mana you can safely use in a day (I'm guessing day). If so, arcanists seem woefully underpowered to me.

To conclude, on the class feature table for arcanists, it says mana pool. But as I've said, there's no description in the text. Mana Limit is on the table and in the text, so I don't think they're identical.

Mike?



> Thanks for having a closer look at this Sorcica.




You're welcome


----------



## A'koss (Jul 31, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> Ah... but then what does it mean that you can only have a number of plusses stored equal to your class level. What about levels 11-20 then (I ought to mention that this ability becomes available at 9th level.



I suspect it is another mistake and it actually refers to your _Mastery Level_ and not your class level. Would that make more sense...?



> Arcanists start with two schools of magic, a primary and a secondary. (it says you start with three one place, but this is obviously a mistake.



Lovely...



> Then it says you have a mana limit. 1st level, it's 12. In the text, it says that your level determines the limit to the amout of mana you can gather *at any one time*. Then it refers you to the chapter on magic.



Hmm, let's try to break this down bit by bit... Here it almost seems to suggest your mana limit is _per spell -_ "any one time". Would that make sense?



> Here it says, that to cast the spell, you must gather mana. "When you use mana you reduce your total available mana by the amount spent on the spell."
> It then goes on with what happens if you exceed your limit etc.



Ugh... okay, now I'm not so sure. It's like we're either missing the Mana Pool values entirely or the rules had changed somewhere along the playtest and we're getting references to rules that no longer exist. My _guess_ is that the mana limit is per spell and we should ignore all references to this mana pool. Could that work?



> So I'm not any closer to a clue. Apparently, it's the amount of mana you can safely use in a day (I'm guessing day). If so, arcanists seem woefully underpowered to me.



_Per spell_ limit perhaps?



> Mike?




MIIIIIIIIIIKE!  

Cheers!


----------



## EricNoah (Jul 31, 2005)

For now, my "solution" to the issue of converting monsters is...

1) If the creature doesn't have a character class, I just use it's D&D armor class.

2) If the creature does have a character class (an orc warrior, for example), I a) change its armor from D&D to IH (remove armor bonus, note DR), and b) give it a class defense bonus equal to 1/2 its class levels.  Typically the class in question is the NPC warrior.  I may also use two home-brewed NPC classes (the Brute -- a "lite" barbarian; and the Bandit -- a "lite" rogue), and in those cases I might grant a slightly higher class defense bonus.

I'm kinda doing this in eTools -- I created DR versions of leather, studded leather, chain, etc. with a 0 armor bonus and the DR noted in the name of the armor ("Leather (DR 1d2)").  To add a class defense bonus, I just manually up the AC on the Stats screen by the appropriate amount.  Until I see the rules this should do nicely.


----------



## A'koss (Jul 31, 2005)

A couple of other questions popped into my head whilst we all wait...

Is there a middle ground between finesse weapons and power weapons - perhaps longswords? Or do they all fall into one of the two categories?

We were told that armor is supposed to be slower to wear than in core D&D, is this true? What about skill check penalties?

Thanks again!


----------



## Knight_Arothir (Jul 31, 2005)

I'd also like to express my thanks, Sorcica, for taking the time to answer so many questions. And if you have a second - I'm also curious about something (however mundane it probably sounds):

What do the armour and weapons lists look like? Basic D&D stuff, or totally different lists? How about armour and weapon illustrations - I'm hoping they look more reasonable than the Player's Handbook cyberpunk armour.


----------



## Dr. Strangemonkey (Jul 31, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> For now, my "solution" to the issue of converting monsters is...
> b) give it a class defense bonus equal to 1/2 its class levels.  Typically the class in question is the NPC warrior.  I may also use two home-brewed NPC classes (the Brute -- a "lite" barbarian; and the Bandit -- a "lite" rogue), and in those cases I might grant a slightly higher class defense bonus.




I'd guess that 3/4 would be more appropriate.  1/2 is a low DB and 1/1 is high, so I'd say most creatures should fit into average unless you think they deserve the 1/1.  I think we may be missing some aspects of armor's impact on AC, though, so that might get all changed up.


----------



## mearls (Jul 31, 2005)

I should probably wait until I have a copy of the rules before trying to clear things up. I last really looked at the game... maybe 4 months ago? It's been weird moving from Malhavoc to Paizo to WotC while this book was in production. There may have been changes that I haven't seen.

I can try to answer questions in the coming weeks, but I'm very busy at the moment. WotC is keeping me really busy!

The long and short of the mana thing is the limit listed is the amount of mana you can use in one day. If you go above that, there's rules for side effects.

For the pact, you can only have access to one pact at a time. You can't promise your soul to more than one demonic entity at once. They talk to each other, you know.


----------



## EricNoah (Jul 31, 2005)

mearls said:
			
		

> They talk to each other, you know.




Oh believe me I know.  *cackles*

Thanks Mike -- I'm looking forward to tomorrow!  And I know you'll do your best to answer our questions as best you can.  Do you think you'll want to tackle them all in one location (the Malhavoc boards, for example) or will you make it back here?


----------



## Aldarc (Jul 31, 2005)

Well this question isn't related to Iron Heroes, but Mike, could you give us any hints as to perhaps future projects that you may be working on at Wizards?


----------



## mearls (Jul 31, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Oh believe me I know.  *cackles*
> 
> Thanks Mike -- I'm looking forward to tomorrow!  And I know you'll do your best to answer our questions as best you can.  Do you think you'll want to tackle them all in one location (the Malhavoc boards, for example) or will you make it back here?




I probably should answer them at the Malhavoc boards, but after the disaster that was trying to answer questions for Book of Iron Might*, I'll probably jump from board to board. The interface here is sooooo much easier to use.

*I went through a 40+ post thread, and typed up a post that answered every single question in the thread. I used HTML to mark up a few things. I tried posting. The system told me I couldn't use HTML in EZ Board posts. Rather than try to preserve my message or give me a warning, it just deleted it. That was 4 hours of work down the drain. Since then, I haven't posted much there. It's doubly annoying when, as a programmer, I know that it would be trivial for EZ board to preserve the message and allow you to edit it.


----------



## mearls (Jul 31, 2005)

Aldarc said:
			
		

> Well this question isn't related to Iron Heroes, but Mike, could you give us any hints as to perhaps future projects that you may be working on at Wizards?




I work on the D&D RPG and the miniatures game. I don't think either product I'm working on has been announced, so I can't say anything. IIRC, they won't be out until mid-2006 at the earliest.

If I did say anything, they'd feed me to the gelatinous cube!


----------



## EricNoah (Jul 31, 2005)

Well, as this thread is sort of an "ask a guy who has the book what's in the book" thread, maybe there should be a separate "ask Mike Mearls to clarify/explain stuff in the book once you get your own copy" thread?  

If no one has started one by the time I get my PDF copy (and have my first question), I'll start one up here in the d20 System forum and cross link the threads.


----------



## EricNoah (Jul 31, 2005)

mearls said:
			
		

> they'd feed me to the gelatinous cube!




He's already said to much.  My money's on "Oozes of Legend."


----------



## mearls (Jul 31, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> He's already said to much.  My money's on "Oozes of Legend."




Crap.

It was a good run I had here. I, for one, welcome the coming reign of our gelatinous, corporate masters.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 31, 2005)

Knight_Arothir said:
			
		

> What do the armour and weapons lists look like? Basic D&D stuff, or totally different lists? How about armour and weapon illustrations - I'm hoping they look more reasonable than the Player's Handbook cyberpunk armour.




Illustrations more rough - espcially the weapons. Armor not 'punk. But no new weapons or armor at all, I'm afraid.


allright everybody. August 1st coming up. Have fun with the book when you get your grabby hands on it. If there's anybody with questons tomorrow, I will have to answer them from memory.
Not sure that my boss is as interested in IH as you guys


----------



## EricNoah (Jul 31, 2005)

mearls said:
			
		

> Crap.




And now we know the next product: "Otyughs of Destiny."

edit: ooh, this must be the miniatures product he mentioned.  *shudders*


----------



## EricNoah (Jul 31, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> allright everybody. August 1st coming up. Have fun with the book when you get your grabby hands on it.




Thanks again for helping us get through the weekend!


----------



## A'koss (Jul 31, 2005)

mearls said:
			
		

> I can try to answer questions in the coming weeks, but I'm very busy at the moment. WotC is keeping me really busy!



And on a Sunday no less! I guess the rumors of the Slavelords of WotC has some merit after all... "This isn't a lash Mike, it's merely a leather briaded facilitator of inspiration."



> The long and short of the mana thing is the limit listed is the amount of mana you can use in one day. If you go above that, there's rules for side effects.



Ahh, so it's _per day_ after all... thanks for clearing that up Mike. I'm curious though why you decided to go this way rather than something token-ish instead? 



> For the pact, you can only have access to one pact at a time. You can't promise your soul to more than one demonic entity at once. They talk to each other, you know.



They're worse than a knitting circle that way...



> It was a good run I had here. I, for one, welcome the coming reign of our gelatinous, corporate masters.



Considering your current ones, this seems like a step up!  

Cheers!


----------



## A'koss (Jul 31, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Thanks again for helping us get through the weekend!



Here, here!

Just two more days... (damn Canadian holiday!).  

Cheers!


----------



## Dr. Strangemonkey (Jul 31, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Thanks again for helping us get through the weekend!




Indeed!


----------



## Particle_Man (Jul 31, 2005)

I fear I will wait until friday (when my FLGS gets its stuff).  

hey, can you really take the same trait twice?  (I saw your example character with traitx2)

And what can the arcanist do when he is out of mana, and "used" up his "pact favours" for the week?


----------



## silvereyes (Jul 31, 2005)

Particle_Man,

From the sounds of it, an arcanist is never actually out of mana. It's just dangerous for him to try and get some more. And I suspect that the danger increases the more he goes over his safety limit.

I think of it as a soft barrier. It's there to keep the character safe, course they are adventurer's right? Safety isn't exactly thier middle name...


----------



## Greatwyrm (Aug 1, 2005)

Many thanks to Sorcica (and his boss).

The only questions I have that really haven't been addressed so far are:

1.  Do they use npc classes (warrior, expert) for all the faceless minions you'll be mowing down?

2.  Is there a short bestiary already included in the main book?


----------



## Plane Sailing (Aug 1, 2005)

Thanks for all your sterling work, Sorcica!

Nobody asked the question that was on my mind (and it may take an extra month or so to reach the UK shores anyway) so perhaps you or someone else who gets it can answer my burning question...

Combat zones? The rules for making interesting bits of terrain for combats. What is that about, what is included, how does it work?

Cheers


----------



## Aldarc (Aug 1, 2005)

I think that Combat Zones will be addressed in "Mastering Iron Herores."


----------



## mearls (Aug 1, 2005)

Aldarc said:
			
		

> I think that Combat Zones will be addressed in "Mastering Iron Herores."




Unfortunately, this is true. They will be in the demo adventure/tutorial I'm working on right now, though. It's written for a DM who wants to teach the game. It's really pretty basic - it's meant to show off the new rules and demonstrate how IH differs from D&D.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Aug 1, 2005)

> hey, can you really take the same trait twice? (I saw your example character with traitx2)



Some of them. The Dexterous one, fx, gives you +2 dex and -2 con. If you choose it twice, there's no con penalty.


> 1. Do they use npc classes (warrior, expert) for all the faceless minions you'll be mowing down?
> 
> 2. Is there a short bestiary already included in the main book?



Yes, there are npc classes. These are dealt with in the the GM book.
There's no bestiary included.


----------



## Kaos (Aug 1, 2005)

Quick note on Arcanists.
Possible interpretation of the Pact issues:  you can gain a total 'bonus pool' up to your level, but you can only use 1-10 points of it at a time.  (Could be wrong, though.)
There are five "Aspects of Power:"  Bounding Step, Daunting Visage (think Gandalf in FotR movie...), Eldritch Dart, Master of Heat and Flame (fire melee attack,) Wound Mending (personal healing.)  All require con checks to activate.  Greater Aspects give bonuses to your aspects;  Ultimate Aspect (at lvl 20) doubles your Master rating for spell checks.

Int supposedly helps 'manage spell energy and channel it into the world,' but the only benefit I've seen from it is that it gives bonus damage to offensive Aspects.  Possibly the typo in the Magic rules claiming Int added to DC of magic checkwas supposed to say that Int bonus was added to your roll.  

He may not hold his own with the other classes, though... it's noted that the Arcanist should not be converted out of IH if there is another magic system, as he's at a disadvantage.  Since the others are on par without gear, and have to be reined in if they *get* the magical gear, this implies to me that the Arcanist is weaker.

ALso:  someone asked if IH used the NPC classes.  They are hinted at (for example, it's stated that a local militia commander would most likely be a level 3 warrior,) but I didn't see them printed anywhere.


----------



## Smart (Aug 1, 2005)

My guess is that when IH is used as a stand alone game, the Arcanist is actually on par with the other classes in combat, due to magic bypassing armor DR. This might be another reason why implementing the Arcanist as a whole class in a "D20 Fantasy" mishmash might handicap him - no armor DR to bypass. In IH, though, it would give him a good combat advantage.


----------



## Dr. Strangemonkey (Aug 1, 2005)

I'd say the arcanist is roughly on par with the bard, or could be made so easilly enough.

Just picked up the book tonight, btw, and I am loving it.


----------



## Kaos (Aug 1, 2005)

Smart said:
			
		

> My guess is that when IH is used as a stand alone game, the Arcanist is actually on par with the other classes in combat, due to magic bypassing armor DR. This might be another reason why implementing the Arcanist as a whole class in a "D20 Fantasy" mishmash might handicap him - no armor DR to bypass. In IH, though, it would give him a good combat advantage.




I'm not sure about that, but I'll find out as soon as I get a chance to play or run it.  (I have my arcanist character all ready, and one of the other guys in the group always plays spellcasters.)  

My main worry is that relatively equivelant effects will be nearly impossible to pull off with a straight d20+mastery roll.  IF int gets added to the check, things might be different.

OTOH, a level 20 arcanist with Ultimate Aspect...


----------



## Plane Sailing (Aug 1, 2005)

Aldarc said:
			
		

> I think that Combat Zones will be addressed in "Mastering Iron Herores."






			
				mearls said:
			
		

> Unfortunately this is true






Oh well, the rest sounds interesting too.


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Aug 1, 2005)

mearls said:
			
		

> It was a good run I had here. I, for one, welcome the coming reign of our gelatinous, corporate masters.




That's too good to not use as a .sig someday.  Yoink!


----------



## EricNoah (Aug 1, 2005)

You know, I was gonna start this "ask Mike IH Questions" thread, but so far I have no questions. 

For those who don't visit, Monte's IH board has an errata thread started.  Probably best to keep it in one place, I guess.  http://p222.ezboard.com/fokayyourturnfrm36


----------



## EricNoah (Aug 1, 2005)

Someone wanted me to post my first attempts at character building.  I'm the first to admit I haven't built a d20 character by hand in ages.  So, here we go, no etools or nothin' ...


----------



## A'koss (Aug 1, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Someone wanted me to post my first attempts at character building. I'm the first to admit I haven't built a d20 character by hand in ages. So, here we go, no etools or nothin' ...



Very cool Eric, thanks!

Damn, that Berserker can unload... unreal.


----------



## EricNoah (Aug 1, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> Very cool Eric, thanks!
> 
> Damn, that Berserker can unload... unreal.




Yeah, that Mighty Build trait in play there...

I think I shorted him one berserker ability now that I'm looking harder...


----------



## A'koss (Aug 1, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Yeah, that Mighty Build trait in play there...
> 
> I think I shorted him one berserker ability now that I'm looking harder...



Yoinks. Does that mighty build have any kind of prerequisite (eg. Str)? I think I may have to make a WM build with that trait, then prehaps the Weapon Bond trait to get the Bastard Sword proficiency and Dex shift to attacks... Yum!

P.S. I just had a glance over the Arcanist build - he seems _very_ weak in comparision to the other classes. Have I missed something?


----------



## EricNoah (Aug 1, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> Yoinks. Does that mighty build have any kind of prerequisite (eg. Str)? I think I may have to make a WM build with that trait, then prehaps the Weapon Bond trait to get the Bastard Sword proficiency and Dex shift to attacks... Yum!
> 
> P.S. I just had a glance over the Arcanist build - he seems _very_ weak in comparision to the other classes. Have I missed something?




He is missing his Mastery Level 1 spells for the remaining spell schools (Illusion, Divination, etc.) -- this sheet is for a one-shot and I don't want to overwhelm the player.  So he's a lot more flexible than the sheet might suggest.  He can perform mastery 1 conjuring, divination, illusion.  

Other than that... he's a spellcaster; he's gonna get knocked around like a D&D wizard.  And I may not have built him as "optimally" as I could have.

Edit: as I look over it, he's a lot more like a D&D cleric than a wizard.  He's got armor.  He's a buffer, a protector, a smidge of healer, with very little "wizard" firepower.  So maybe think of him like that.


----------



## A'koss (Aug 1, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Edit: as I look over it, he's a lot more like a D&D cleric than a wizard. He's got armor. He's a buffer, a protector, a smidge of healer, with very little "wizard" firepower. So maybe think of him like that.



Well, even if he is just a "support guy", magical in-combat healing and buffing are always welcome. 

(provided they work...  )

Cheers!


----------



## Kunimatyu (Aug 1, 2005)

Two major issues that haven't been discussed yet -- saves and death.

Rolling a 1 on a save doesn't autofail, though a 20 still succeeds.

Once you're at -10 hp or below, you must roll a fort save every round (DC = negative hp) or die.

Big changes, if you ask me.

There also don't appear to be rules for binding/summoning outsiders or elementals, which is a little disappointing. Creating abberations is possible at the higher levels, though.


----------



## EricNoah (Aug 1, 2005)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> There also don't appear to be rules for binding/summoning outsiders or elementals, which is a little disappointing. Creating abberations is possible at the higher levels, though.




Yeah there are some definite holes in the things magic can do in IH, as compared to D&D.  For example, am I missing it or is there no teleportation type power?  That's an interesting omission...


----------



## A'koss (Aug 1, 2005)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Two major issues that haven't been discussed yet -- saves and death.
> 
> Rolling a 1 on a save doesn't autofail, though a 20 still succeeds.



That is a big change... interesting. The new rules for dying were actually touched upon earlier in this thread and are indeed quite cool. However I didn't get an answer to a question I had about it - if you are *stabilized* at -10 or lower, do you still have to make Fort Saves every round? Reserve Point recovery is 1 HP _per minute_, so recovery that way is tough.



> There also don't appear to be rules for binding/summoning outsiders or elementals, which is a little disappointing.



Yes, that is too bad...


----------



## A'koss (Aug 1, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Yeah there are some definite holes in the things magic can do in IH, as compared to D&D. For example, am I missing it or is there no teleportation type power? That's an interesting omission...



And this is a _good thing_ IMO. I also hope there are no Save or Die spells or story-breaking divinations.

P.S. Add resurrection to that list too...


----------



## Driddle (Aug 1, 2005)

Turanil said:
			
		

> do you feel this system is overpowered (compared to normal d20)?





the system is not "overpowered" _within its own environment._ remember, you're not transplanting a bunch of hungry tigers to a prairie dog colony.


----------



## EricNoah (Aug 1, 2005)

I think the only way it would be "overpowered" is if IH characters got their hands on D&D magic items.  IH characters vs. D&D monsters (or D&D characters whose magic items can't be looted) will probably be fairly balanced.  I'm looking forward to pitting some 5th level IH characters against ogres, low-level dragons, etc. Should be a bloodbath all the way around.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Aug 1, 2005)

With respect to Iron Heroes magic, are there conversion notes for monsters with spellcasting ability?

How do you adjudicate a monster that casts as a 7th level sorcerer, for example?


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Aug 1, 2005)

Everything I'm reading tells me this system would fit _PERFECTLY_ with Midnight.


----------



## Kunimatyu (Aug 1, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> That is a big change... interesting. The new rules for dying were actually touched upon earlier in this thread and are indeed quite cool. However I didn't get an answer to a question I had about it - if you are *stabilized* at -10 or lower, do you still have to make Fort Saves every round? Reserve Point recovery is 1 HP _per minute_, so recovery that way is tough.




No, you do not, but it's going to take you awhile to regain consciousness/heal.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Aug 1, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> And this is a _good thing_ IMO. I also hope there are no Save or Die spells or story-breaking divinations.
> 
> P.S. Add resurrection to that list too...




I haven't seen ways to create save or die spells. The divination I'm a bit more uncertain about, clever players and all.

There no resurrection. The best achiveable is rejuvenation.


----------



## Driddle (Aug 1, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> The more i'm reading, the more I'm thinking Conan. ...




Yep. When this product was announced, the first image I had was that of A.Schwartzenegger in the Conan movie, with his cast of supporting characters. It's the theme I expected most of all.


----------



## Aldarc (Aug 1, 2005)

Reall, because the very first thing that I thought of was the manga Berserk. A mundane world of warring kingdoms that slowly reveals its otherworldliness as the character simply try to survive the forces of the universe that they do not understand.


----------



## Renshai (Aug 1, 2005)

I don't see where Mastery level stacks in multiclassing? Do you know if it does?

Say I've got a 5th Level Berserker/1st level Weapon Master (Power as primary) would his Master for power still only be 3 (because its higher from Berskerer) or would be it be 5 (the two added together).

Thanks


----------



## Driddle (Aug 1, 2005)

I'm amused at the number of questions/concerns raised about magic, considering the game system is very clearly warrior focused in a low-magic setting and has been described as such for week after week.


----------



## BryonD (Aug 1, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> With respect to Iron Heroes magic, are there conversion notes for monsters with spellcasting ability?
> 
> How do you adjudicate a monster that casts as a 7th level sorcerer, for example?




There is less than a page and a half on converting existing material into IH.
Basically, it says they should be able to handle it, so don't worry about, but take into account that things like petrification are more permanent in IH than D&D.

It even goes so far as to say that villian could be a sorcerer by virtue of being "alien or demonic".  

It also recommends converting magic items into inherent abilities.  Such as if the module NPC has boots of speed, make them be arcane foot tattoos.  

IMO, you'll be a lot better off just doing your own adventures from scratch.  I think hand waving away why EVERY npc has special perks that are arbitrarily out of the player's reach would be real old real fast.

Don't get me wrong, so far I REALLY like what I see.  But trying to use existing material wouldn't be worth it to me.

A dragon casting as a sorcerer wouldn't bother me.  But any D&D adventure is just going to be loaded with things that don't fit the model.  

If the big bad is a 6th level orc fighter your options are: 
A) re-write as a 6th IH XXXXX 
B) drop his gear and make him weaker
C) give him the ever-present "power scars"

meh,  I'll just start from the beginning.  Easier than retrofitting everything.


----------



## Aldarc (Aug 1, 2005)

> and has been described as such for week after week.



More like months after months.


----------



## Dr. Strangemonkey (Aug 1, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> With respect to Iron Heroes magic, are there conversion notes for monsters with spellcasting ability?
> 
> How do you adjudicate a monster that casts as a 7th level sorcerer, for example?




The conversion rules that deal with that that I have noted are:

- If you are going to bring other kinds of spellcasters they should probably replace arcanists, though personally I think arcanists might be competitive just not as primary spell casters.

- Monsters with such abilities should probably take on a different story role than normal.  IH seems to want to use them with the elevated threat level that such abilities imply in a low magic world.  The conversion rules say that while CR should still be the same having multiple encounters with such beasts in quick succession would be unbalancing.

- For levels where creatures with appropriate CR are almost certain to have such abilities it recommends 'upping the die' on the frequency of rounds in which it can use such a weapon.

The main issue seems to be that where saving throws are higher and you cannot fail on ones that still doesn't remove the chance that a couple of bad rounds in succession could take out the party before it could react.


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Aug 1, 2005)

So, do magic items exist at all? From the sounds of it, you'll never find a Longsword +1 in your entire career.

Am I right?


----------



## BryonD (Aug 1, 2005)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> So, do magic items exist at all? From the sounds of it, you'll never find a Longsword +1 in your entire career.
> 
> Am I right?




I certainly have not done cover to cover yet, but it looks that way from this book.
Though the later books may very well expand on the options.

Also, It would be very easy to dump in one +2 Keen Bastard Sword as an Excalibur, if you wanted such as that.  

But I certainly believe the primary idea is that characters should expect to get to 20th with zero magic items.


----------



## zen_hydra (Aug 1, 2005)

Aldarc said:
			
		

> Reall, because the very first thing that I thought of was the manga Berserk. A mundane world of warring kingdoms that slowly reveals its otherworldliness as the character simply try to survive the forces of the universe that they do not understand.





That's cool, because it is the exact same thing that went through my mind.


----------



## Nifelhein (Aug 1, 2005)

Hey Ash! I hope it does, although defenders, legates and the great 2nd edition book that i haven't even finished reading are my main concerns with this one. Anyway, i am in the list of those that are fighting their curiosities and the very very attractive price malhavoc has placed on the pdf...

PS for Ash: AtS.org was nominated for an ennie!


----------



## Kunimatyu (Aug 1, 2005)

BryonD said:
			
		

> There is less than a page and a half on converting existing material into IH.
> Basically, it says they should be able to handle it, so don't worry about, but take into account that things like petrification are more permanent in IH than D&D.
> 
> It even goes so far as to say that villian could be a sorcerer by virtue of being "alien or demonic".
> ...




Well, in IH's 'implied setting', the human bad guys, the First, are supposed to be better than normal people, up and including magical augmentation. It's not that ridiculous to expect a First to have magic gear attuned to his person, or even the 'magical foot tattoos' suggested. I think it's possible to work around this...but I'll still want to put IH though its paces via a module first.


----------



## Kunimatyu (Aug 1, 2005)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> So, do magic items exist at all? From the sounds of it, you'll never find a Longsword +1 in your entire career.
> 
> Am I right?




Yes and no. Your arcanist will be able to give your longsword enhancement bonuses, though you may or may not want him messing with your precious heirloom.


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Aug 1, 2005)

Nifelhein said:
			
		

> Hey Ash! I hope it does, although defenders, legates and the great 2nd edition book that i haven't even finished reading are my main concerns with this one. Anyway, i am in the list of those that are fighting their curiosities and the very very attractive price malhavoc has placed on the pdf...




Nice to see you Nif!

I'd have to get my hands on Iron Heroes, and I'm ashamed to say I havn't been able to pick up Midnight 2nd edition yet, but there certainly seems like there could be a good blend.

I'm running two Eberron campaigns right now, but I hope to be able to jump back into Midnight in a few months. I may try a IH/Midnight hybrid then. Maybe I'll write a conversion article for AtS when I get around to it.

Off the top of my head:

*Defenders* - Sigh... I don't know. I never really cared for them in the first place.

*Legates* - Pretty simple I'd think. They're basically just evil arcanists. Maybe replace one of the arcanist's early special abilities with their Astirax bond. Or maybe the bond is a feat only open to legates?

*Channeler* - "Channeler" becomes "Arcanist". Direct port.



> PS for Ash: AtS.org was nominated for an ennie!



I know. I voted!


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Aug 1, 2005)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Yes and no. Your arcanist will be able to give your longsword enhancement bonuses, though you may or may not want him messing with your precious heirloom.




I guess what I'm wondering is, if I give a 10th level character a +1 sword, will he be horribly overpowered? I see magic can penetrate DR, which is the major function of armor, so it has me worried.

As mentioned in my other posts, I see this blending well with Midnight, which has magic items as VERY rare, but not unheard of.


----------



## Macbeth (Aug 1, 2005)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> I guess what I'm wondering is, if I give a 10th level character a +1 sword, will he be horribly overpowered? I see magic can penetrate DR, which is the major function of armor, so it has me worried.
> 
> As mentioned in my other posts, I see this blending well with Midnight, which has magic items as VERY rare, but not unheard of.




Disclaimer: I don't have the book, so this is some speculation.

Just a +1 Sword? No, not really. If you start to give him potions, magic armor, magic whatsits, etc., then he becomes too powerful. When it comes down to it, a +1 is just doing 1 point of damage more then a masterwork sword (assuming masterwork swords are still +1 attack). Even over a long combat, at 10th level, that's going to be maybe 15 extra points of damage. Not too bad. Something like flaming I'd be more worried about.

So, I'm guessing that just a single, fairly minor magic item, wouldn't hurt. But start decking him out like a 10th level D&D character, and he'll overpower anybody and everybody. Think of a D&D charafcter with double the standard wealth... Since the classes basically compensate for lack of magic items, a Iron Heros character with full gear would be like a character with double items.


----------



## BryonD (Aug 1, 2005)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Well, in IH's 'implied setting', the human bad guys, the First, are supposed to be better than normal people, up and including magical augmentation. It's not that ridiculous to expect a First to have magic gear attuned to his person, or even the 'magical foot tattoos' suggested. I think it's possible to work around this...but I'll still want to put IH though its paces via a module first.




Right, but the First aren't part of the question that was asked.

The point was specifically about using existing D&D material with IH.  The First does not offer any help if I'm running a module with an orc warlord with a +2 Amulet of Natural Armor, a +2 Great Axe and various other items.  

I don't see the slightest problem with building all kinds of augmented villians that would work perfectly within the IH framework.  I was not challenging that possibility.  But a lot of the D&D assumptions don't fit smoothly into this mold.

That isn't a real problem to me.  But I do think it is a very clear condition and an accurate response to the question asked.


----------



## BryonD (Aug 1, 2005)

Macbeth said:
			
		

> Disclaimer: I don't have the book, so this is some speculation.
> 
> Just a +1 Sword? No, not really. If you start to give him potions, magic armor, magic whatsits, etc., then he becomes too powerful. When it comes down to it, a +1 is just doing 1 point of damage more then a masterwork sword (assuming masterwork swords are still +1 attack). Even over a long combat, at 10th level, that's going to be maybe 15 extra points of damage. Not too bad. Something like flaming I'd be more worried about.
> 
> So, I'm guessing that just a single, fairly minor magic item, wouldn't hurt. But start decking him out like a 10th level D&D character, and he'll overpower anybody and everybody. Think of a D&D charafcter with double the standard wealth... Since the classes basically compensate for lack of magic items, a Iron Heros character with full gear would be like a character with double items.




Yeah, other than the whole bypassing Armor DR thing, I agree with this.

The IH chars have the loss of magic items built in.  So at the level a fighter "should" (YMMV on when "should" occurs) have a +3 sword, IH already has it.  So if you gave the IH char a +1 sword it would be largely equivalent to giving a +4 sword to the guy who is expected to have the +3.  Which is to say, not that big a deal.

But Armor with DR 1dX/magic is an important thing to keep in mind....


----------



## EricNoah (Aug 1, 2005)

I would imagine that if it's anywhere, rules for IH magic items will be in the "Mastering Iron Heroes" book.  I'm hoping there are wealth guidelines there, too (although ... with little to spend your wealth on there's no reason to worry about giving too much cash away...)


----------



## A'koss (Aug 1, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I would imagine that if it's anywhere, rules for IH magic items will be in the "Mastering Iron Heroes" book. I'm hoping there are wealth guidelines there, too (although ... with little to spend your wealth on there's no reason to worry about giving too much cash away...)



Apparantly there are magic item rules in Mastering IH. Mike once said they are similar in some respects to CoC's (read: possibly dangerous to use). Mike also mentioned that the book will address what to do with all they cash you have on hand...


----------



## BryonD (Aug 1, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> wealth guidelines




Table A:
Ales of the Known World

Table B:
Whores of the Known World

Table C:
Bribing made easy


----------



## EricNoah (Aug 1, 2005)

I think what Wulf might be asking is ... if you were trying to do a D&D creature's spellcasting the IH way, are there conversion notes for that?  And the answer is no.  I would hope to see some guidelines like that maybe in the monster book.  But the "solution" as presented is to just use the monsters as-is (with their D&D spells) because the IH characters can handle it.  

What I would do, personally, is try to match the D&D monster's caster level with the appropriate mastery level for his primary method, and then just assume he has that level of mastery over all effects you want to create.  Build some spells, figure out channeling DCs, but don't worry about the mana and just let the creature cast them a couple of times per encounter.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Aug 2, 2005)

Renshai said:
			
		

> I don't see where Mastery level stacks in multiclassing? Do you know if it does?
> 
> Say I've got a 5th Level Berserker/1st level Weapon Master (Power as primary) would his Master for power still only be 3 (because its higher from Berskerer) or would be it be 5 (the two added together).
> 
> Thanks




This is from memory, but somewhere it talks about an exception to the normal rules of Mastery stacking when multiclassing. Can't recall what it's about. Unless someone else with the book chimes in, the answer will have to wait approx. nine hours....


----------



## monboesen (Aug 2, 2005)

All in all the Iron heroes way of dealing with npc and monster powers is pretty much what I do already in my standard D&D game. I'm sure I'm not the only Dm with this approach.

You simply decide that strict rules are for the players exclusively(to keep them somewhat on par with each other). Npc's and monsters are simply able to do what you want/need to do, even if this is stuff that the pc's will never be able to do. As long as their succes at something involving the players is not automatic (requires a hit, save, skil roll etc.) this works fine in my experience and cuts down on prep time immensely.

As for magic, I actually like that the players use of magic could be different (and obviously worse) than other creatures/races. I my setting for example, Dragons will keep casting spells as Sorcereres as they are simply better at magic than humans. Period.


----------



## Dalamar (Aug 2, 2005)

BryonD said:
			
		

> The point was specifically about using existing D&D material with IH.  The First does not offer any help if I'm running a module with an orc warlord with a +2 Amulet of Natural Armor, a +2 Great Axe and various other items.



Well, unless the character has consumable magic items, the players never have to know that the orc warlord they're fighting has magic items. And even then, it could be described as stoking itself (potion of Bull's Strength), or many other things. That's how I'm going to handle things like that.


----------



## Nifelhein (Aug 2, 2005)

I am very anxious to get this one, the amount of teasers has even helped get me more into it, but I want to ask one last thing, not that my curiosity does not want more, you know, but how does unarmed strike gets into the book flow, I mean, is it even a feat and is there any worry about the unarmed strike of a non-monk style character?

And Ash, drop by, we miss you there man, and 2nd edition rocks.  On the Midnight and iron Heroes merge, one of the playtester groups has used that one, and it is said it rocked... They are evil, really, really evil, those malhavoc guys.


----------



## Kunimatyu (Aug 2, 2005)

One more Iron Heroes plug: there's a set of feats for _impaling people with tridents._

Seriously.


----------



## EricNoah (Aug 2, 2005)

Nifelhein said:
			
		

> how does unarmed strike gets into the book flow, I mean, is it even a feat and is there any worry about the unarmed strike of a non-monk style character.




There's the original SRD "Improved Unarmed Strike" feat.  And that's about it.  I'll be homebrewing an Improved Unarmed Strike feat mastery chain, which will bump up the damage dice, maybe increase the critical threat range on such a strike, etc.  But other than that, the existing feat chains should also be useful for a martial artist type character.


----------



## A'koss (Aug 2, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> There's the original SRD "Improved Unarmed Strike" feat. And that's about it.



Well, Mike did say that if he couldn't do Unarmed Combat right (meaning comprehensively, I assume), it wouldn't be in IH. I'm hoping for a web expansion covering this myself.



> I'll be homebrewing an Improved Unarmed Strike feat mastery chain, which will bump up the damage dice, maybe increase the critical threat range on such a strike, etc. But other than that, the existing feat chains should also be useful for a martial artist type character.



Be sure to send it off to the "Iron League" fansite when you're done. I'm sure many will be looking for Unarmed Mastery feats before long...

Cheers!


----------



## Nifelhein (Aug 2, 2005)

Thanks Eric, I was hoping that it would be there that way, I was also wondering if unarmed strtike is listed as finesse, power attack and the like, there are qutie some descriptors in it, also, how about the improved grapple feat, is it still around?

My main concern is exactly because i Dm a Midnight game and the defender class, while not currently in my game, is deep in the feel of the setting, allowing some kind of defender can end up being easier with the basics there.

I would love to see Eric's homebrew system too, and akin to you, A'koss, hope to see a book or web resource for unarmed combat, but with Mearls gone from malhavoc I fear it will never come to be, in fact, I fear iron heroes will be more about those three books, the adventure, minis and counters and a rare other.


----------



## A'koss (Aug 2, 2005)

Nifelhein said:
			
		

> I would love to see Eric's homebrew system too, and akin to you, A'koss, hope to see a book or web resource for unarmed combat, but with Mearls gone from malhavoc I fear it will never come to be, in fact, I fear iron heroes will be more about those three books, the adventure, minis and counters and a rare other.



I'm certain it will see support so long as the sales are there. With the foundations of IH in place, other designers should be able to take it and run with it...


----------



## XCorvis (Aug 2, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> Be sure to send it off to the "Iron League" fansite when you're done. I'm sure many will be looking for Unarmed Mastery feats before long...




Is there a website for the Iron League yet? I didn't see one...


----------



## A'koss (Aug 2, 2005)

XCorvis said:
			
		

> Is there a website for the Iron League yet? I didn't see one...



It won't be up until the 11th. www.iron-league.com


----------



## coyote6 (Aug 3, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> This is from memory, but somewhere it talks about an exception to the normal rules of Mastery stacking when multiclassing. Can't recall what it's about. Unless someone else with the book chimes in, the answer will have to wait approx. nine hours....




Under the Executioner's class description, it talks about how they can use Power feats with normal or finesse weapons, but:



			
				Iron Heroes said:
			
		

> You gain this benefit only with Power feats that have a mastery rating at or below the mastery granted by your executioner class levels, not by your combined mastery from more than one class.




I would presume, then, that mastery levels stack.

Somehow. 

(The section on multiclassing doesn't point out any exceptions, the way it does for adding up Defense scores, so I would say you just add 'em up -- a Harrier 5/Hunter 5 that chose Projectile as his weapon feat would have Defense mastery 4, Finesse mastery 4, Projectile mastery 4, Lore mastery 4, Tactics mastery 5, and whatever else at 2.)


----------



## Kaos (Aug 3, 2005)

Nifelhein said:
			
		

> I would love to see Eric's homebrew system too, and akin to you, A'koss, hope to see a book or web resource for unarmed combat, but with Mearls gone from malhavoc I fear it will never come to be, in fact, I fear iron heroes will be more about those three books, the adventure, minis and counters and a rare other.




After the adventure, and the rules to run it, what more do you really need?  

(Yes, I understand that it's always good to have more... as long as it's quality, anyway.)


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 3, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> There's the original SRD "Improved Unarmed Strike" feat.  And that's about it.  I'll be homebrewing an Improved Unarmed Strike feat mastery chain, which will bump up the damage dice, maybe increase the critical threat range on such a strike, etc.  But other than that, the existing feat chains should also be useful for a martial artist type character.



I wouldn´t be surprised if Weapons Master would be a good start for a martial artist.


----------



## Nifelhein (Aug 3, 2005)

I would love to see an unarmed combat system done right in the iron heroes way, but I recognize it can be done somewhat easily. What really bothers me is that Mearls sure had a lot of ideas for one, he said he would either do it right or leave it out, space made it out...

Anyway, we have one product out of three and an adventure and I am already complaining... man I am fast.


----------



## Gomez (Aug 3, 2005)

So are there no magical items in the Iron Heroes rules? Just curious.


----------



## Wishsong (Aug 3, 2005)

Wow, It looks very attractive!

One thing I don't like D&D is too-many magic items.

Can I match IH characters vs Monsters from D&D?


----------



## wizofice (Aug 3, 2005)

Wishsong said:
			
		

> Can I match IH characters vs Monsters from D&D?




That's the idea.  No one knows how DR works yet though (as far as I know).


----------



## buzz (Aug 3, 2005)

*Off-topic...*



			
				mearls said:
			
		

> *I went through a 40+ post thread, and typed up a post that answered every single question in the thread. I used HTML to mark up a few things. I tried posting. The system told me I couldn't use HTML in EZ Board posts. Rather than try to preserve my message or give me a warning, it just deleted it. That was 4 hours of work down the drain. Since then, I haven't posted much there. It's doubly annoying when, as a programmer, I know that it would be trivial for EZ board to preserve the message and allow you to edit it.



EZ Boards blow. I had get their tech support involved just to get access to my account on Monte's boards. Malhavoc needs to invest in vBulletin or just get someone who knows what they're doing to install phpBB.


----------



## Ibram (Aug 3, 2005)

I've been reading the book, not indepth yet, but I have been over all the chapters.

The classes look wonderful, I'm going to run up an NPC hunter and maybe an archer to throw at my party this saturday (to get a real feel for the classes).

One thing I am worried about is classes with multiple token pools, that may be hard to keep track of.

I also greatly enjoy the feat mastery system, and if nothing else will probably implement something like it in my games (if for some reason I never get to run Iron Heros).


----------



## Garnfellow (Aug 3, 2005)

buzz said:
			
		

> EZ Boards blow. I had get their tech support involved just to get access to my account on Monte's boards.




And that's to say nothing of the Great Hacker Attack of 2005. Over on the Necromancer boards I had a pretty interesting thread going on adventure hooks in the City State of the Invincible Overlord. People posted losts of great ideas there and now I think they're all lost forever.

But to me  the biggest tragedy was the loss of EZ Boards data over on the Sons of Sam Horn, which is a great Red Sox site. Tons of great 2004 game threads, including WS and ALCS (!!!) threads now lost, all lost.


----------



## TerraDave (Aug 3, 2005)

As I suspected all along, from the posts here it is reading pretty cool...

...but before I actually break down and get a copy, any thoughts on using the skill and combat challenges and skill group rules in a standard D&D/D20 game?


----------



## wizofice (Aug 3, 2005)

Regarding EZBoard and lost posts, I've found that as long as I preview it first I won't lose it usually.  If I (from the preview) click Post and there's a problem, I can click back. Now this results in a "page no longer exists" error page.  But if I click refresh it asks if it can resend the previous stuff from memory and brings me back to the preview.

Definitely a pain and coupled with the hack, I am forced to agree change is in order.


----------



## A'koss (Aug 3, 2005)

wizofice said:
			
		

> Regarding EZBoard and lost posts...



I always either select all & copy my posts before sending or write them in Wordpad first if I know they're going to be fairly long.


----------



## Zaruthustran (Aug 3, 2005)

*How easy to run?*

First an opinion, then a question to all those with the book.

Opinion:
It seems like IH has a ton of choices for PCs, which is great for tactically-minded powergamer types (like myself). But this staggering array of options sounds like it'd be an absolute pain to DM. 

Say your players start a fight in a bar. I have a fairly good idea of what the stats would be for, say, couple warriors, a fighter or two, and a barbarian. Power Attack and Cleave, maybe some Dodge, some Weapon Focus, call it good. 

But man, this IH stuff sounds complicated. When you add in Stunts, can you imagine what a 4 on 4 fight would be like? Or opening up a lair of 20-30 lizardmen? 

Question:
So, does IH have a bunch of pre-statted foes? I'm thinking of the pregenerated NPCs in D&D's DMG.

-z


----------



## EricNoah (Aug 3, 2005)

Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> So, does IH have a bunch of pre-statted foes? I'm thinking of the pregenerated NPCs in D&D's DMG.
> 
> -z




No.  We're thinking that there might be something along this line in either the GM book or the Creature book. 

For now, I'm going to assume the NPC monsters/grunts only have access to their printed D&D feats.  They probably won't use stunts against the PCs.  And then I might stat out an IH "boss/leader" type or two as special villains.


----------



## MacMathan (Aug 3, 2005)

As I read it most people/humanoids in the world do not have tokens and such. They are NPC classes like warrior or expert that we are already familiar with and thus very simple to run. 

In IH the heroes really are a step above the norm, much more so than in 3.5- of course since they are integrating the functional power of all those magic goodies into their innate class abilities it makes sense that they are exceptional. 

They really are Heroic in a power sense.


----------



## Dave Turner (Aug 4, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> No.  We're thinking that there might be something along this line in either the GM book or the Creature book.
> 
> For now, I'm going to assume the NPC monsters/grunts only have access to their printed D&D feats.  They probably won't use stunts against the PCs.  And then I might stat out an IH "boss/leader" type or two as special villains.



 As I recall, Mike has created a new NPC/villain system for the IH GM book that is supposed to wipe away fears like those that Zarathustran has.  It's supposed to make villain creation a snap, something like "minutes per villain".  If you think Mike has hit the mark with IH, then it's a fair bet that he's hit the mark with these new villain rules.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Aug 4, 2005)

TerraDave said:
			
		

> As I suspected all along, from the posts here it is reading pretty cool...
> 
> ...but before I actually break down and get a copy, any thoughts on using the skill and combat challenges and skill group rules in a standard D&D/D20 game?




I would say that this is one of the things from IH that would fit the easiest in a regular D&D game.

'Course, there may be as yet unnoticed problems.


----------



## JEL (Aug 4, 2005)

FYI, official errata corrections have been posted: http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?iron-lore


----------



## Tharen the Damned (Aug 5, 2005)

Now I have it too!

It came by mail yesterday.

So now Germany has its Iron Heroes too.

Cheers


----------



## Particle_Man (Aug 6, 2005)

Got it in Canada!  And thanks to Malhavoc for the speedy erratta!  This makes it easier for one decision of mine.  I will get the hardcovers of MM and the DMG for iron heroes because then I can write the erratta in the books, which I can't do with pdf's because I only have the acrobat reader, not the acrobat writer/editor.

I like the book, although I will likely have to go over it closely to see where some of the minor changes are from 3.5 PHB to IH PHB (the major changes are easy enough to spot).


----------



## Driddle (Aug 6, 2005)

I may have picked up a misprinted copy -- can't seem to find the section on prestige classes. What page numbers should I be looking for?


----------



## Particle_Man (Aug 6, 2005)

Since it is an alternate player's handbook, there are no prestige classes.  Maybe there will be some in the "DM" book coming out in September (Novermber for the print version)?


----------



## buzz (Aug 6, 2005)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> I will get the hardcovers of MM and the DMG for iron heroes because then I can write the erratta in the books, which I can't do with pdf's because I only have the acrobat reader, not the acrobat writer/editor.



Malhavoc is good about releasing updated PDFs with corrected errata, though.


----------



## Stone Dog (Aug 7, 2005)

buzz said:
			
		

> Malhavoc is good about releasing updated PDFs with corrected errata, though.



Yes they are.  Just  don't change the file name and sooner or later they will have a free patch that updates your PDF.  Good solid service there.


----------



## Driddle (Aug 7, 2005)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Since it is an alternate player's handbook, there are no prestige classes.  Maybe there will be some in the "DM" book coming out in September (Novermber for the print version)?




Honestly, I was being a bit facetious. Tongue-in-cheek, as it were. 

This game system really doesn't need prestige classes. It would be like dipping a fully-loaded banana split in batter and deep-frying it on a stick.


----------



## Stone Dog (Aug 7, 2005)

Driddle said:
			
		

> This game system really doesn't need prestige classes. It would be like dipping a fully-loaded banana split in batter and deep-frying it on a stick.



Oh lord, that sounds good.

-The Dog, revealing a goodly bit about his gaming style.


----------



## Particle_Man (Aug 7, 2005)

I think what IH has done is hit the "Sweet spot" of DM/Player interaction.

In general, players like having lots of options, crunchy bits, etc.

In general, DM's like to have easy to generate npc's, creatures, etc.

Now with rules lite systems, you have something that is easy to run, but then the players lose some of their options.

But with IH, it seems like the PC's (being qualitatively *better* than most other people), get tons of options in the form of feat mastery, tokens, etc.  The DM, on the other hand, can stick with tokenless rubes (aristocrats, warriors, experts, commoners) and monsters.  And when the other books come out, there is the promise of having "quickie villains" to further make the DM's life easy without restricting player choice.

If I am correct in this assumption, then this is a *huge* point in favor of IH.  I mean, I just got the book and saw all the feat options and my head exploded.  But a player of course would have his chosen feats that he knows, his chosen class that he knows the abilities of, his favorite skill stunt routines, etc.  So it won't be overwhelming, once the shock wears off.  And the DM has an even easier time, as she can simply go "OK, I will trust the player to know what to do and I will send some warriors against them, and later, a Hill Giant".  The DM doesn't have to think about token pools, super-feats, etc., for her NPC's, and thus will save time, especially in a combat with more than one NPC.

Sounds good to me!


----------



## Dr. Strangemonkey (Aug 7, 2005)

The game even has pretty good recommendations for letting the DM send bizarre versions of normal classes against IH PCs for extra creepiness.

People/entities blazing with internal magical energy so they can power their insane fetishes.


----------



## Kaos (Aug 7, 2005)

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
			
		

> The game even has pretty good recommendations for letting the DM send bizarre versions of normal classes against IH PCs for extra creepiness.
> 
> People/entities blazing with internal magical energy so they can power their insane fetishes.




I think the 'extra creepiness' factor is a side effect more than an intention;  the recommendations are there to let them have their crutches (magical gear) without having them fall into the hands of IH classed characters.


----------



## Particle_Man (Aug 8, 2005)

Driddle said:
			
		

> Honestly, I was being a bit facetious. Tongue-in-cheek, as it were.
> 
> This game system really doesn't need prestige classes. It would be like dipping a fully-loaded banana split in batter and deep-frying it on a stick.




I have thought about it, and there is room for at least 1 prestige class.

Something that allows one to be a multi-class Arcanist/Non-Arcanist without sucking.  Something like the DMG's Eldritch Knight, I would imagine.


----------



## Kaos (Aug 8, 2005)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> I have thought about it, and there is room for at least 1 prestige class.
> 
> Something that allows one to be a multi-class Arcanist/Non-Arcanist without sucking.  Something like the DMG's Eldritch Knight, I would imagine.




Solid numbercrunching or playtesting may reveal otherwise, but from what I've seen of the Arcanist, multiclassing isn't going to be any more painful to him than it is for any of the other classes.  As-is, his access to the magic system isn't a major component of his power (with a few exceptional methods that seem to give too much result) so the traditional issues of multiclassed casters (lower caster level for spell resistance and lost access to higher level spells) don't play nearly as much havoc with him as with traditional casters.


----------



## Dr. Strangemonkey (Aug 8, 2005)

Kaos said:
			
		

> I think the 'extra creepiness' factor is a side effect more than an intention;  the recommendations are there to let them have their crutches (magical gear) without having them fall into the hands of IH classed characters.




Hmm, I gotta little bit of a beef with your delving into intentionallity there, but the main point for me wasn't so much the tatoos as it was how weird a character who pull off those sorts of stunts would be without the obvious crutch of items/everyone being able to do it as they went up in level.

It's like being the orc.  Save you are a tremendous IH style badass ork.  Scary but invigorating.


----------

