# Kate Welch is WotC's New D&D Designer



## gyor (Jan 18, 2018)

Congratulations,  does anyone know what she will be working on?


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## dave2008 (Jan 18, 2018)

Thank you for the update!


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## Istbor (Jan 18, 2018)

Seems like a good edition given the direction of 5e so far.  I like her thoughts on character creation/roleplay.


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## lyle.spade (Jan 18, 2018)

Cool. She seems sharp and interesting, if the video is any indication - her idea about character type choice makes a lot of sense.


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## Sacrosanct (Jan 18, 2018)

I'm afraid I don't really know that much about her.  But Congratulations to her!  I wish her the best!


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## ccooke (Jan 18, 2018)

So, wait. The D&D team is _growing_ now? I thought it only ever shrunk or maintained size ;-)

More seriously, this is great news. A little quick googling suggests she'll be an asset.


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## darjr (Jan 18, 2018)

Awesome! I also wonder what they’ll work on first?

And SPEECH!


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## Sacrosanct (Jan 18, 2018)

ccooke said:


> More seriously, this is great news. A little quick googling suggests she'll be an asset.




She seems to have a lot of experience in illustration and web design, but I can't find any experience with actual game design.  I'm assuming her web design experience gives her some experience with requirements, test scenarios, use cases, etc--all things critical for anyone doing any sort of design work.


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## SolidPlatonic (Jan 18, 2018)

This is great news!


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## gyor (Jan 18, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> She seems to have a lot of experience in illustration and web design, but I can't find any experience with actual game design.  I'm assuming her web design experience gives her some experience with requirements, test scenarios, use cases, etc--all things critical for anyone doing any sort of design work.




 I have to admit,  the lack of previous RPG design experience is concerning,  I mean even some DMguild products would be nice going in,  just so we have a better idea of her abilities. I just want a taste so I know what to expect from her. 

 Didn't they looking for someone for designing settings or something?  Maybe that is what she will do?


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## ccooke (Jan 18, 2018)

gyor said:


> I have to admit,  the lack of previous RPG design experience is concerning,  I mean even some DMguild products would be nice going in,  just so we have a better idea of her abilities. I just want a taste so I know what to expect from her.
> 
> Didn't they looking for someone for designing settings or something?  Maybe that is what she will do?




There are also a few comments about character creation and other things tangential to design that I thought very promising. But this is based on a quick google and reading only a couple of things that came up. Good material that shows real thought into how people have fun with their characters, though.

This is short, but I like the approach: https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/36-the-c-teams-kate-welch (edited to add: And it appears to be a transcript of the video linked above, which I can't watch because I'm still in the office )


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## DEFCON 1 (Jan 18, 2018)

gyor said:


> I have to admit,  the lack of previous RPG design experience is concerning,  I mean even some DMguild products would be nice going in,  just so we have a better idea of her abilities. I just want a taste so I know what to expect from her.
> 
> Didn't they looking for someone for designing settings or something?  Maybe that is what she will do?




Since the job appeared to be for design rather than development... it sounds like it could be more about coming up with ideas rather than trying to develop them into a balanced game form.  Which is where a strong illustration background could be useful.

It's the same way I see Alan Lee and John Howe worked for the _Lords of the Rings_ movies.  They basically did nothing but just sketch and design all day, and then Peter Jackson took the ideas of theirs that he liked and passed them on to the developers who had to figure out "Okay, so we have these elvish weapon styles, how do make these into practical props?"

A lot of independent game designers nowadays end up doing everything on their own for their own independent projects... design the game, develop the game, balance the game, playtest the game, lay out the game, publish the game, market the game etc. etc.  But for this particular job WotC had... they didn't need someone skilled at all of those facets necessarily, so being a DMs Guild published designer or Guild Adept might not have been necessary to get the job?

It also probably didn't hurt that Kate was already living in Seattle and wouldn't have to relocate.


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## Parmandur (Jan 18, 2018)

gyor said:


> I have to admit,  the lack of previous RPG design experience is concerning,  I mean even some DMguild products would be nice going in,  just so we have a better idea of her abilities. I just want a taste so I know what to expect from her.
> 
> Didn't they looking for someone for designing settings or something?  Maybe that is what she will do?



The job rec gave an example of a new setting book as the sort of project the new employee might do. Basically, she's in to lead a book the way that Crawford or Perkins do currently.

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app


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## Mathilda (Jan 18, 2018)

I found the video a bit disconcerting due to her comments.  In my opinion, she plays the game on a fringe, that fringe being heavy roleplay.  There is nothing wrong with that if you can find a group of like-minded individuals that enjoy the game like you do.  

However, from a centrist viewpoint, more combat than once every 4 sessions would be middle ground lending itself to probably some sort of combat every game session in most groups.  As a game designer, you have to consider the full audience of the game and not one element that you are most interested in.

There is no evidence currently that supports she does not understand the role of combat in the game but I am reasonably sure based on comments within the video she does not understand extreme combat or powergaming which is on the other end of the spectrum of players that she is most comfortable playing at.  Again as a game designer, she needs to address the powergamer needs as well as the heavy roleplayer


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## Sacrosanct (Jan 18, 2018)

Mathilda said:


> Again as a game designer, she needs to address the powergamer needs as well as the heavy roleplayer




_*She *_doesn't.  But hopefully someone on the team has experience there to address them in the final product (assuming power gamers are even in scope of their target demographic for the product, which isn't a given).  Seeing as how she's just a member of a team, it's not fair to expect her to focus on areas outside of her expertise.  I doubt they were looking for a general jack of all trades designer, but had a specific specialization in mind.  I'm assuming she fit that specialization otherwise why hire her?  So she only "needs" to address those areas in which she was hired.


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## darjr (Jan 18, 2018)

Or maybe they have enough folks who are good at the power gamer thing.


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## Parmandur (Jan 18, 2018)

Mathilda said:


> I found the video a bit disconcerting due to her comments.  In my opinion, she plays the game on a fringe, that fringe being heavy roleplay.  There is nothing wrong with that if you can find a group of like-minded individuals that enjoy the game like you do.
> 
> However, from a centrist viewpoint, more combat than once every 4 sessions would be middle ground lending itself to probably some sort of combat every game session in most groups.  As a game designer, you have to consider the full audience of the game and not one element that you are most interested in.
> 
> There is no evidence currently that supports she does not understand the role of combat in the game but I am reasonably sure based on comments within the video she does not understand extreme combat or powergaming which is on the other end of the spectrum of players that she is most comfortable playing at.  Again as a game designer, she needs to address the powergamer needs as well as the heavy roleplayer



Well, but are "powergame" the target audience for WotC..?

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## ad_hoc (Jan 18, 2018)

Mathilda said:


> There is no evidence currently that supports she does not understand the role of combat in the game but I am reasonably sure based on comments within the video she does not understand extreme combat or powergaming which is on the other end of the spectrum of players that she is most comfortable playing at.  Again as a game designer, she needs to address the powergamer needs as well as the heavy roleplayer




I don't think so.

I am willing to bet that of the over 10 million D&D players, only a small number are playing on the extreme combat/powergaming end of things.

Not only do I think there are few such players, but there are far better games for their needs. Catering to them will only tank sales. 5e has done very well with its published adventures that focus on the 3 pillars of play.


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## The-Magic-Sword (Jan 18, 2018)

Mathilda said:


> I found the video a bit disconcerting due to her comments.  In my opinion, she plays the game on a fringe, that fringe being heavy roleplay.  There is nothing wrong with that if you can find a group of like-minded individuals that enjoy the game like you do.
> 
> However, from a centrist viewpoint, more combat than once every 4 sessions would be middle ground lending itself to probably some sort of combat every game session in most groups.  As a game designer, you have to consider the full audience of the game and not one element that you are most interested in.
> 
> There is no evidence currently that supports she does not understand the role of combat in the game but I am reasonably sure based on comments within the video she does not understand extreme combat or powergaming which is on the other end of the spectrum of players that she is most comfortable playing at.  Again as a game designer, she needs to address the powergamer needs as well as the heavy roleplayer




While it's important that the designers of DND address the mechanical side of the game and the people that enjoy it (I love me some char op and build planning), if anything I think it's the other way around and the people who play it for primarily mechanical reasons are the fringe. Given the boom that surrounds 5e, it's tilt away from that, and the success of streams like Critical Role and DCA which are decidedly roleplay oriented, I think it's a pretty safe bet. I'm sure she'll be fine for the mechanical side of the game as well, she discusses the combat role of her character and shows an awareness of the mechanical side of the game, ergo what she mentioned about Way of the Open Palm being the optimized monk and the monk's role in combat and such, but either way I wouldn't be worried, the other members of the team have been gaming for decades and are more than capable of addressing our needs in that respect- off the top of my head I recall Mearls being fairly prominent in 4e which was a very tactical edition, Perkins is a legend, and Crawford has always been excellent.

Additional info: Evidently she worked at arenanet on Guild Wars 2 stuff, which is pretty cool, from her linkedin: 

Web/UI Designer, Jan 2011-Jan 2012
- Designed new sites and assets for GuildWars.com and GuildWars2.com.
-  Designed the UX and UI for features for the Extended Experience team,  including the in-game Trading Post and Currency Exchange.

Web/UI Lead, Extended Experience, Feb 2012-Sep 2012
- Oversaw a complete redesign of GuildWars2.com.
-  Designed the beta registration and purchasing experiences for  GuildWars2.com, with an emphasis on low barrier to entry and utter  simplicity. This included the design for a dxdiag collection tool to  keep manual input to a minimum and speed players through the beta signup  process. This effort contributed to over a million successful beta  registrations.
- Designed several features, including the Guild Wars 2 launcher and the mobile authenticator.
-  Worked with a small team to design the box art and packaging design for  every element of the standard & collector's editions of Guild Wars  2, as well as provide art direction for the Brady strategy guide for  Guild Wars 2.

UI Designer, Sep 2012-Sep 2014
- Created the UX and UI of many in-game features, from initial wireframes to final deliverables.
- Improved and upgraded many existing features as the game evolved.

Host, "Points of Interest", June 2014-Sep 2014
-  Hosted a regular 30-minute livestream show on Twitch, spearheaded by  the Content Marketing team, to spotlight developers in the company and  discuss the PvE (player vs environment) and story side of Guild Wars 2.

and also worked in Game development for Amazon Game studios:

- Currently lead the vision, direction, and execution of the user experience & interface for the upcoming PC game Crucible.
-  Responsible for delivery of assets varying from high-level  documentation to individual assets, including wireframes, interactive  prototypes, and illustration.
- Successfully drove an effort to  review & re-engineer the UI solution for Crucible to orient around  HTML/CSS/JavaScript-based technology.
- Organized user testing with  internal & external test groups to gather, triage, and address  feedback. Oversaw the development, launch, and management of private  forums to engage early members of the test community. 
- Collaborate  with every member of the Crucible team, user researchers, and several  international outsourcing firms, with a eye toward rapid interactive  prototyping. 

Yup, that'll do it for qualification, especially those last two points- 5e is very playtest driven and it's been mentioned that they're taking a much more iterative approach based off feedback. I can also attest as a huge fan of guild wars, that if her job involves the creative vision for what the layout of various books and the like are going to be like, then we're gonna get some great looking books- if she was brought on to work on setting guides as some people have been speculating, this is going to be amazing and result in some very nice products. Also if she has any influence over the user experience side of the rules, ditto, because all the stuff she worked on that I've taken part in is great, and user friendly.


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## generic (Jan 18, 2018)

Glad she's joining the team.


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## robus (Jan 18, 2018)

Given that WotC could definitely use some help in the useability department of their products, someone skilled in that department sounds like an asset!


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## Juomari Veren (Jan 18, 2018)

Struck up a conversation with her on Twitter since I'm aspiring to become a game designer and she mentioned that she does have game design experience. Seven years' worth to be exact. I think we're in good hands here.


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## Mathilda (Jan 18, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Well, but are "powergame" the target audience for WotC..?
> 
> Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app




Target audience.... I would say no.....powergaming community is never the target audience for a game, especially DnD.  My point is that the designers should include their perspective as well as the other extreme of heavy roleplay when adding to the game


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## TrippyHippy (Jan 18, 2018)

Congratulations! She clearly has some inspiration and passion for the job, so I'm interested to see what she comes up with.


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## Von Ether (Jan 18, 2018)

Congrats!

It's sort of nice to see the trend of TTRPGers going to video game jobs taking a reverse here. And since we already had our video game debacle with 4th edition, I'm not worried that she's going to put the game into another video game spin.

Usability. ... My new crew was making PC last night and we all felt there was a bit more page flipping than there needed to be. Be interested to see how she can re-organize the material.


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## Mathilda (Jan 18, 2018)

ad_hoc said:


> I don't think so.
> 
> I am willing to bet that of the over 10 million D&D players, only a small number are playing on the extreme combat/powergaming end of things.
> 
> Not only do I think there are few such players, but there are far better games for their needs. Catering to them will only tank sales. 5e has done very well with its published adventures that focus on the 3 pillars of play.




Do you have quantitative evidence of 10 million D&D players, because the number of players playing D&D today is probably much less.

However, given your number there are more players that participate in powergaming tactics because of one fact of Human Nature... nobody wants to suck at playing the game and also most games that people play D&D have more than one combat every four sessions as she claimed in her video.  So if combat is more prevalent and people do not want to suck, then those players will adopt some powergaming tendencies to feel they are contributing to the group play.

Also I never claimed to "cater" to powergaming... only to include that style of play when designing the game.... unless your definition of catering is including a style of play that you personally disagree with...then yes I guess I was catering.


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## Rygar (Jan 19, 2018)

ccooke said:


> So, wait. The D&D team is _growing_ now? I thought it only ever shrunk or maintained size ;-)
> 
> More seriously, this is great news. A little quick googling suggests she'll be an asset.




I was just checking up on Magic the Gathering forums this week.  Apparently, Mtg is taking a serious downturn, I'm seeing a lot of talk about events failing to have enough people to participate to be held, and poor sales of recent sets.  The rumor reported on the biggest (And reliable for more than a decade) Mtg rumor site is that Hasbro's prepping to sell off Wizards of the Coast.  

So beefing up the D&D team makes sense, a small investment right now would potentially yield a substantial difference in the amount they're offered for WOTC if they can prove that the D&D brand can produce revenue.  Right now, if they're prepping to sell WOTC, a potential buyer can argue D&D way down because it doesn't have any significant ongoing revenue streams.  They'd really only be buying the brand name and a few fairly useless protected images.

No real way to tell, this doesn't prove or disprove anything, but in a few years we might be talking about how this was the first indicator.


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## Arilyn (Jan 19, 2018)

Mathilda said:


> Target audience.... I would say no.....powergaming community is never the target audience for a game, especially DnD.  My point is that the designers should include their perspective as well as the other extreme of heavy roleplay when adding to the game




Every designer has a preferred play style. It doesn't make them one trick ponies.


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## ad_hoc (Jan 19, 2018)

Mathilda said:


> Do you have quantitative evidence of 10 million D&D players, because the number of players playing D&D today is probably much less.




In early 2017 Chris Cocks (President and CEO of WotC) estimated 9.5 million players. November 2017 was the best selling month of 5e.




> nobody wants to suck at playing the game




Definitions vary. I surmise that the vast majority of players feel that they don't suck with any of the class, subclass, and race selections. The D&D player base is no longer confined to hobby game enthusiasts who spend their spare time thinking about the game. I bet most players only think about the game while they're playing it.


> and also most games that people play D&D have more than one combat every four sessions as she claimed in her video.




You're moving the goalposts. I responded to your comment that D&D designers must cater to the 'extreme combat/powergaming' players. Replying that most players have more than 1 combat every 4 sessions is not a reply to that statement.



> So if combat is more prevalent and people do not want to suck, then those players will adopt some powergaming tendencies to feel they are contributing to the group play.




I disagree with your premise and your conclusion. I think the vast majority of players feel like they are meaningfully contributing to the group regardless of their character choices. D&D is a cooperative game. Most players don't play to be in competition with each other.



> Also I never claimed to "cater" to powergaming... only to include that style of play when designing the game....




You said that [designers] need to 'address the needs' of powergamers. 'Addressing the needs of' is literally the definition of 'catering'. 



> unless your definition of catering is including a style of play that you personally disagree with...then yes I guess I was catering.




This makes little sense to me. "Catering" is a verb. One can cater to a single person, a small group, or a majority. It means to provide what is needed or required to someone or group. My definition of catering has nothing to do with agreement or disagreement.

I do think that it is not in D&D's best interest to cater to a very small amount of its players by changing the game to go against its goals and thus alienate a large number of players.


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## ad_hoc (Jan 19, 2018)

Rygar said:


> I was just checking up on Magic the Gathering forums this week.  Apparently, Mtg is taking a serious downturn, I'm seeing a lot of talk about events failing to have enough people to participate to be held, and poor sales of recent sets.  The rumor reported on the biggest (And reliable for more than a decade) Mtg rumor site is that Hasbro's prepping to sell off Wizards of the Coast.




With a big movie in production?

Well known Intellectual Property/Brands are worth a lot of money nowadays. Nostalgia is a big seller.

I think Hasbro would need a lot of money to sell WotC. Also, don't they speak highly of WotC in their stock report meetings?


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## Morrus (Jan 19, 2018)

ad_hoc said:


> In early 2017 Chris Cocks (President and CEO of WotC) estimated 9.5 million players. November 2017 was the best selling month of 5e.




Didn't he say that included video game players?


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## ad_hoc (Jan 19, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Didn't he say that included video game players?




https://www.twitch.tv/videos/139409870

5e discussion starts at 26:40

9.5 million players at 27:30

"D&D fifth edition is played by....played actively by about 9.5 million people...give or take and that is just the tabletop version."


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## Morrus (Jan 19, 2018)

ad_hoc said:


> https://www.twitch.tv/videos/139409870
> 
> 5e discussion starts at 26:40
> 
> ...




Fair enough!


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## Curmudjinn (Jan 19, 2018)

Boom


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## Sacrosanct (Jan 19, 2018)

I really wish this attitude of “if you don’t optimize or power game, then you suck at combat” would just die already.  

Heck, some of my most memorable combat encounters were with PCs who had crappy stats.


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## 3catcircus (Jan 19, 2018)

Mathilda said:


> Again as a game designer, she needs to address the powergamer needs as well as the heavy roleplayer




Why?  Why focus on either of those two extremes instead of focusing on the majority of gamers who do neither?

I get the arguments of others, but I'm focused not on the "if you cater to this group, you must hate the other group and don't like their playstyle."  I'm focused on the "what is going to be appealing to the majority of D&D players *and* DMs so that WotC continues to profit so they can make more quality stuff?"

Don't care about her background, prior work experience, politics, lifestyle, etc.  If she can get a team to pump out quality products then obviously WotC made the right choice.  If not, then she'll be gone in a year or two just like anyone else who isn't getting the job done.

WotC has been conspicuous about not vomiting out quantity for 5e (unlike every prior edition), letting DMs Guild take that role with TPP - perhaps they are building for the long-term by being choosey about picking staff who will be around in 5 years' time?


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## Mathilda (Jan 19, 2018)

3catcircus said:


> Why?  Why focus on either of those two extremes instead of focusing on the majority of gamers who do neither?
> 
> I get the arguments of others, but I'm focused not on the "if you cater to this group, you must hate the other group and don't like their playstyle."  I'm focused on the "what is going to be appealing to the majority of D&D players *and* DMs so that WotC continues to profit so they can make more quality stuff?"
> 
> ...




My point is to capture both playstyles because everyone that is in middle does some combination of both


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## ad_hoc (Jan 19, 2018)

Mathilda said:


> My point is to capture both playstyles because everyone that is in middle does some combination of both




I reject that notion. 

Are you saying that tables who engage in the Combat Pillar are engaging in powergaming? Because that isn't true. 

I understand that you want D&D to cater to powergamers. I just don't understand why.

#1 - 5e is the most popular ttRPG of all time.
#2 - There are plenty of games out there to play that are more suited for powergamers.

So why should WotC alienate a big chunk of its player base and/or use up space in books that most people don't want? And why do you want them to when you could play a different game whose goals are more in line with your own?


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## Mathilda (Jan 19, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> I really wish this attitude of “if you don’t optimize or power game, then you suck at combat” would just die already.
> 
> Heck, some of my most memorable combat encounters were with PCs who had crappy stats.




You really miss the point.... the point is this:  People inherently do not want to suck so they will do some sort of optimization so they can also contribute to the group.  I am not talking about the player who will go to the Nth degree in optimization... that is another discussion.  I am not even talking about the player who thinks he/she is better than everyone and says other people suck.  What I speak about is something true in all of us, in life deep down you know what you are good at and what you are not good at... if you wish to be better at something, you ask questions, you read books or go on the internet for advice... the same is true in D&D, if a player wants to be better... he/she will in some sort of fashion ultimately optimize / power-up some aspect of their game


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## ad_hoc (Jan 19, 2018)

Mathilda said:


> the same is true in D&D, if a player wants to be better... he/she will in some sort of fashion ultimately optimize / power-up some aspect of their game




#1 This is not what 'powergamer' means
#2 I think that most players don't care about getting better. They want to do their best to help out, but they don't care how good they are at that and won't be putting effort into improving. The people at my table have busy lives. The busiest one is currently preparing their PhD. dissertation. I am sure they don't care about getting better at combat in D&D and yet they also enjoy combats.


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## Parmandur (Jan 19, 2018)

Mathilda said:


> My point is to capture both playstyles because everyone that is in middle does some combination of both



It's not a strict, evenly distributed dichotomy, I reckon. Indeed, I'm certain the proper balance for their audience was taken into consideration by WotC when hiring.

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app


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## Mathilda (Jan 19, 2018)

ad_hoc said:


> #1 This is not what 'powergamer' means
> #2 I think that most players don't care about getting better. They want to do their best to help out, but they don't care how good they are at that and won't be putting effort into improving. The people at my table have busy lives. The busiest one is currently preparing their PhD. dissertation. I am sure they don't care about getting better at combat in D&D and yet they also enjoy combats.




1.  I am not going to argue about definitions.. no point in doing so
2.  I absolutely disagree with your second point....if they truly do not want to get better, they will eventually lose interest in the game and quit.  To the second part of your point #2, I am going to assume you are the DM since you said "at my table"... only you can answer this, when you play, do you actually challenge the party or do you "fudge" rolls to ensure the party is successful? and if you say you challenge them, have you TPK'd them and if so, what was the response, did they quit, did they complain it was too hard, etc.  I have not watched your game but how would they do if they went to a convention and played an AL mod... would the pressure of finishing an adventure in 4 hours be too much?  In sports, they call it playing down to your competition.. meaning that instead of playing to one's abilities, one slacks off.. Do you do that to your party?


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## Mathilda (Jan 19, 2018)

ad_hoc said:


> https://www.twitch.tv/videos/139409870
> 
> 5e discussion starts at 26:40
> 
> ...




Fair enough... it would be interesting on how he arrived at that number..

Now I am curious if he quoted a player base number for Magic:  The Gathering since that game is considered a "Franchise Base" game per the 2016 Hasbro Annual Report and I assume they are still both WoTC controlled games


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## Parmandur (Jan 19, 2018)

Mathilda said:


> Fair enough... it would be interesting on how he arrived at that number..
> 
> Now I am curious if he quoted a player base number for Magic:  The Gathering since that game is considered a "Franchise Base" game per the 2016 Hasbro Annual Report and I assume they are still both WoTC controlled games



Unfortunately, their methodology is likely proprietary information, but likely accurate.

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## Mathilda (Jan 19, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> It's not a strict, evenly distributed dichotomy, I reckon. Indeed, I'm certain the proper balance for their audience was taken into consideration by WotC when hiring.
> 
> Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app




I disagree... I would imagine it is simple bell curve distribution.... with players that the play the game with zero dice rolling (i.e. heavy role players) and players that play the game with all dice mechanics and zero role playing being at the opposite ends with everyone else forming the bell by playing the game by utilizing both playstyles


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## 3catcircus (Jan 19, 2018)

Mathilda said:


> My point is to capture both playstyles because everyone that is in middle does some combination of both




How about capturing *neither* and leave it up to the vast army of third-party content to fill that role?  

I'd argue that making a character *good* at something another character in the party isn't good at is not power-gaming.  Power-gaming generally focuses on maximizing one thing to the exclusion of everything else.  Not many players do that - I've never seen a majority of players (whether home campaigns, at cons, or in organized play) do that - and I've been gaming for 40+ years.  Likewise, I've not seen many players spend multiple sessions doing nothing but dialog with the DM and not throw a single die.  Those that want to do that tend to gravitate towards diceless systems, LARPing, SCA, etc.

WotC should be sticking with hiring people who can produce products that focus on appealing to the majority of potential buyers - and that means middle of the road without heavily investing into either of the two extremes.


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## ad_hoc (Jan 19, 2018)

Mathilda said:


> 2.  I absolutely disagree with your second point....if they truly do not want to get better, they will eventually lose interest in the game and quit.




That simply isn't true.

The goal of D&D (for most) is not to win. 

It's to facilitate fun social engagements with friends.



> when you play, do you actually challenge the party or do you "fudge" rolls to ensure the party is successful? and if you say you challenge them, have you TPK'd them and if so, what was the response, did they quit, did they complain it was too hard, etc.




No fudging. There have been 2 or 3 TPKs in the last year. We usually have a brief discussion of how awesome the campaign/ending was and then everyone makes new characters.



> I have not watched your game but how would they do if they went to a convention and played an AL mod... would the pressure of finishing an adventure in 4 hours be too much?




I doubt any of them would want to play at a convention or with strangers. Most of the players you know might go to conventions, but the vast majority of players don't go to them. Remember, over 10 million active players.

We're not speaking the same language. I don't think you understand the way most people play D&D. Indeed, you had no idea how popular the game really is. You seem to be framing everything in terms of competition and adversaries.

There is demonstrated well in the movie Arrival (2016):

[sblock] The Chinese government has learned to communicate with the aliens through the game Mahjong. As such, all of their communications are about adversaries and competition. Their language leaves no room for anything else. Everything must be framed that way, and as such they misinterpret the aliens.[/sblock]

To you 5e is one thing, but it is something else to most people. My recommendation is to play a different game because your goals don't align well with the goals of 5e. There is some overlap there, but you will likely continue to be frustrated by the design decisions of WotC.


----------



## dave2008 (Jan 19, 2018)

Mathilda said:


> 2.  I absolutely disagree with your second point....if they truly do not want to get better, they will eventually lose interest in the game and quit.  To the second part of your point #2, I am going to assume you are the DM since you said "at my table"... only you can answer this, when you play, do you actually challenge the party or do you "fudge" rolls to ensure the party is successful? and if you say you challenge them, have you TPK'd them and if so, what was the response, did they quit, did they complain it was too hard, etc.  I have not watched your game but how would they do if they went to a convention and played an AL mod... would the pressure of finishing an adventure in 4 hours be too much?  In sports, they call it playing down to your competition.. meaning that instead of playing to one's abilities, one slacks off.. Do you do that to your party?




I'm not sure what you are rambling about.  What does any of this have to do with whether or not his players like to get better at combat?

Personally, my players do not actively try to get better, but they do like to get better things (weapons and equipment) and get new features (new - not necessarily better).  But they don't care about learning better tactics, or picking the best features, or spells, or weapons, or feats.  They don't plan ahead or do anything like power gaming.  Heck, they are challenged by the monsters in the MM as is!


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## Sacrosanct (Jan 19, 2018)

Mathilda said:


> You really miss the point.... the point is this:  People inherently do not want to suck so they will do some sort of optimization so they can also contribute to the group.  I am not talking about the player who will go to the Nth degree in optimization... that is another discussion.  I am not even talking about the player who thinks he/she is better than everyone and says other people suck.  What I speak about is something true in all of us, in life deep down you know what you are good at and what you are not good at... if you wish to be better at something, you ask questions, you read books or go on the internet for advice... the same is true in D&D, if a player wants to be better... he/she will in some sort of fashion ultimately optimize / power-up some aspect of their game




I disagree.  For many, if not most of the gamers, optimizing on any level doesn't matter.  D&D is not a competition, not between players themselves, and not between the players and the DM.  You seem to have this assumption that being able to contribute and/or the ability to have fun in a game is dependent on engaging in some level of optimization.  That's a false assumption.




Mathilda said:


> 1.  I am not going to argue about definitions.. no point in doing so




If you're going to use words like optimization and power gaming, things that have clear meanings, then you better believe that the proper usage of them is important.



> 2.  I absolutely disagree with your second point....if they truly do not want to get better, they will eventually lose interest in the game and quit.




And this really illustrates the issue, doesn't it?  If PCs don't get better, players will lose interest and quit?  This is a _role-playing_ game.  Thousands of gamers play because they enjoy role playing, and enjoy the company of friends, and a million other things other than seeing if some numbers on a character sheet get better.  This isn't a sports competition.  You don't play D&D to keep getting better.  it's a game.  Looking at the video, Kate Welch seems to be one of those players who could have fun forever just partaking in a good story and having fun with friends without giving one whit on trying to max out stats or DPR.


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## Mathilda (Jan 19, 2018)

ad_hoc said:


> I reject that notion.
> 
> Are you saying that tables who engage in the Combat Pillar are engaging in powergaming? Because that isn't true.
> 
> ...




Wow.... you really think because I say that game design should include powergaming that I am "catering"...

Let me present a simple analogy that hopefully you will understand....

The government announces that will provide a new service that everyone can benefit from except Blank... you can fill in the blank... except White people, except Asian people, except Black people... etc..

That would not be fair or right by any standard...

I understand that you dislike powergamers, however, they are still part of the community and SHOULD be included when considering changes and/or additions to the game of Dungeons and Dragons... if you still believe that powergamers should be ignored, then you also then think it is OK to ignore sections of society.

Also I find it interesting that you focus on only the power game comments that I make but ignore the comments that I include the heavy role play side as well


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## ad_hoc (Jan 19, 2018)

Mathilda said:


> Wow.... you really think because I say that game design should include powergaming that I am "catering"...
> 
> Let me present a simple analogy that hopefully you will understand....
> 
> ...




This is downright offensive.

Comparing the plight of marginalized peoples to the woes of powergamers in a game is beyond the pale.


----------



## Jacob Lewis (Jan 19, 2018)

So to recap: A young woman gets coveted job working on the world's most popular role-playing game. Forum posters reignite the classic feud between roleplayers and power gamers.

D&D is doing just fine.


----------



## Croesus (Jan 19, 2018)

This thread has gone way off the rails...


----------



## darjr (Jan 19, 2018)

eh, ignore the fight.

Is there any other sources of her talking about the game? Interviews or parts of the game she is in? I'm curious and looking forward to this "setting material" that she is going to be working on.


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## Sunseeker (Jan 19, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> And this really illustrates the issue, doesn't it?  If PCs don't get better, players will lose interest and quit?  This is a _role-playing_ game.  Thousands of gamers play because they enjoy role playing, and enjoy the company of friends, and a million other things other than seeing if some numbers on a character sheet get better.  This isn't a sports competition.  You don't play D&D to keep getting better.  it's a game.  Looking at the video, Kate Welch seems to be one of those players who could have fun forever just partaking in a good story and having fun with friends without giving one whit on trying to max out stats or DPR.




I question this basis on the assertion that most _games_ are built upon the idea that the better you are at playing them, the more fun you can have from them.  If you're going to ignore the numerical aspect of the game, then you don't actually need to play D&D.  You can play make-believe with your friends without a rulebook printed by WOTC.  Beyond that, there's improvement to be made at the role-playing side of things.  I mean I know I'm both a better _gamer_ and a better role-player over the years and that has, at least IME, made it easier for me to enjoy the overall game.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Jan 19, 2018)

shidaku said:


> I question this basis on the assertion that most _games_ are built upon the idea that the better you are at playing them, the more fun you can have from them.  If you're going to ignore the numerical aspect of the game, then you don't actually need to play D&D.  You can play make-believe with your friends without a rulebook printed by WOTC.  Beyond that, there's improvement to be made at the role-playing side of things.  I mean I know I'm both a better _gamer_ and a better role-player over the years and that has, at least IME, made it easier for me to enjoy the overall game.




D&D is not a competitive game, so there is no need to be better. It isn’t required at all, and how “good” you or your PC is has no bearing on how much fun you can have. So without that core aspect to drive the behavior Mathilda says people do, they won’t do it and thus that argument is flawed on a fundamental level. Sure, some people view the game that way, but that’s not how it’s designed, and thus not how most people play it. 

If I’m playing basketball, I want to get better because I’m competing against something. In D&D, not so much. Doesn’t matter. So I disagree with your premis that if a game has a numerical aspect, you’re driven to be a better player. I also disagree that a persons fun is tied to how good they are at a game. Brand new players for every game out there seem to have just as much fun as experts. Or do you claim that a new player can’t have as much fun as you because they aren’t as experienced or as “good” as you?  Needless to say, I strongly disagree with that.


----------



## ad_hoc (Jan 19, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> So I disagree with your premis that if a game has a numerical aspect, you’re driven to be a better player. I also disagree that a persons fun is tied to how good they are at a game. Brand new players for every game out there seem to have just as much fun as experts. Or do you claim that a new player can’t have as much fun as you because they aren’t as experienced or as “good” as you?  Needless to say, I strongly disagree with that.




I go the other way, typically the better I am at a game the less fun I have.

I don't really play competitive games anymore. The fun has been drained from them for me. There are even some that were I in the game it would ruin everyone else' fun too. New games don't help as they usually have the same mechanics of previous games. I can never play Poker for fun again or M:tG for that matter. Now when I have a board game night I mostly play social games like Codenames or Werewolf.

Playing D&D for the competition has always seemed strange to me. There are a lot of highly competitive games out there; Chess, Go, Poker, M:tG, heavy board games, war games. So why play a game for competition in which most people aren't competing?


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## MichaelSomething (Jan 19, 2018)

Has anyone here actually seen the C Team stream?  You know, the thing were people can literally watch her play D&D for hours at a time?  Wouldn't that provide as least some insight into how she handles D&D?


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## Mathilda (Jan 19, 2018)

ad_hoc said:


> This is downright offensive.
> 
> Comparing the plight of marginalized peoples to the woes of powergamers in a game is beyond the pale.




It is only true.... I am advocating inclusiveness to ALL types of players... you are advocating only to include players you deem fit to play the game you seem to want.

At least you got the analogy.... kudos


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## Mathilda (Jan 19, 2018)

Ad Hoc and Dave...

Now I am curious... how many different players do you both normally play with... 1 table of maybe 5 or 6 players like a home game... or you expose yourselves to a bigger community?

My comments are based on my experiences in the Los Angeles area of a community of like 500 people... which I see and play with many at monthly game days and local conventions that draw huge amounts of people from all over the nation and sometimes the world.

If you both have similar experiences in a roughly same sample size then OK, I guess you have seen different outcomes.... but if you are only speaking of your own home game... that sample size is rather small to make the sweeping comments.... even if your whole group agreed with you... that would be only 6 or 7 players out of what you quoted as 9.5 million players.  Even if you countered with my community is small at 500 but it is still a much bigger sample size than yours.


----------



## pogre (Jan 19, 2018)

Good luck to her. I am sure she will bring a new spark of creativity and new approaches to the team.


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## Mathilda (Jan 19, 2018)

My last post on this thread....

It is obvious from the replies... that once I wrote the words optimization and powergaming... some of you made an assumption that I am speaking of the player type that eeks out every single point of damage in a round or builds a character with an AC of a million... or any kind of character that is an extreme...  I was never making an argument for those kinds of players... even though I believe there is a place for those players in this community.

When I was speaking about many players power game or optimization to some extent... I was speaking about the players that decide whether they want to use a weapon and shield or a two handed weapon.  One choice optimizes AC and the other choice optimizes damage output normally.  Those two choices when playing D&D are very basic and everyday kind of choices... the same can be said on the choices of what spells a player chooses for their character... each choice is an optimization of some type, maybe not to what the idea in your own heads what is optimization...but it is a choice that the player feels that will make he or she more effective.

Some of you claim that your players have no interest in getting better or no interest in optimization.... do they play their characters naked with only a stick to defend themselves?  I am going to assume that they don't do that, I am going to assume that they buy armor and arm themselves... as the party levels, I am going to assume that the spellcasters pick spells that help the party by having better control or bigger damage against more creatures or something.  All these choices and many others that I have not mentioned all make the player's characters better.

What I describe above to me is a normal D&D game that a large percentage of the 9.5 million people experience....  If what I describe does not apply to your individual games, then I am not sure if you are playing D&D.


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## Mathilda (Jan 19, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> D&D is not a competitive game, so there is no need to be better. It isn’t required at all, and how “good” you or your PC is has no bearing on how much fun you can have. So without that core aspect to drive the behavior Mathilda says people do, they won’t do it and thus that argument is flawed on a fundamental level. Sure, some people view the game that way, but that’s not how it’s designed, and thus not how most people play it.
> 
> If I’m playing basketball, I want to get better because I’m competing against something. In D&D, not so much. Doesn’t matter. So I disagree with your premis that if a game has a numerical aspect, you’re driven to be a better player. I also disagree that a persons fun is tied to how good they are at a game. Brand new players for every game out there seem to have just as much fun as experts. Or do you claim that a new player can’t have as much fun as you because they aren’t as experienced or as “good” as you?  Needless to say, I strongly disagree with that.




Sorry.. this time really last post...

D&D is not a competitive game in the traditional sense because the players do not compete with each other... but I will argue it is competitive from the standpoint that the DM provides a goal for the players to achieve.  From that perspective, it becomes competitive because the party has a succeed or fail task to attempt.

No one likes to fail and once it happens... many times there is self reflection as to how to be successful next time and that is what drives changes to the character

You could counter and say that is up to the DM to determine success or failure and that is true.... but there is a pitfall with that which is a cheapening of the game experience


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## Mathilda (Jan 19, 2018)

Jacob Lewis said:


> So to recap: A young woman gets coveted job working on the world's most popular role-playing game. Forum posters reignite the classic feud between roleplayers and power gamers.
> 
> D&D is doing just fine.




Sir, you obviously have not been reading my posts... I am saying is that a game designer should include ALL types of play when considering additions or changes to the game because there are different kinds of players that enjoy this game in different ways.

If you disagree with that notion, then that says more about you than about me.


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## Sacrosanct (Jan 19, 2018)

ad_hoc said:


> I go the other way, typically the better I am at a game the less fun I have.
> 
> I don't really play competitive games anymore. The fun has been drained from them for me. There are even some that were I in the game it would ruin everyone else' fun too. New games don't help as they usually have the same mechanics of previous games. I can never play Poker for fun again or M:tG for that matter. Now when I have a board game night I mostly play social games like Codenames or Werewolf.
> 
> Playing D&D for the competition has always seemed strange to me. There are a lot of highly competitive games out there; Chess, Go, Poker, M:tG, heavy board games, war games. So why play a game for competition in which most people aren't competing?




I really enjoy the game now, after 35 years of playing. But honestly, I had the most fun as a kid just starting. We didn’t know all the rules so we didn’t let anything get in the way. We just made stuff up and did whatever sounded fun. When I DM’d my youngest son and his friends for their first time a few years ago, I saw it all again in them. I’ve found, the more we know about the rules of the game, the more we try to adhere to that structure. For me as a kid, and my kid learning?  Literally it was imagination with much fewer constraints. Which for me, was more fun.


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## ad_hoc (Jan 19, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> I really enjoy the game now, after 35 years of playing. But honestly, I had the most fun as a kid just starting. We didn’t know all the rules so we didn’t let anything get in the way. We just made stuff up and did whatever sounded fun. When I DM’d my youngest son and his friends for their first time a few years ago, I saw it all again in them. I’ve found, the more we know about the rules of the game, the more we try to adhere to that structure. For me as a kid, and my kid learning?  Literally it was imagination with much fewer constraints. Which for me, was more fun.




That's why I like that one of the design goals of 5e was to have the rules be such that if people were to guess them on the fly they'd likely be right.

So basically, instead of needing to memorize rules, all a table needs to do is understand the concept of the rules/design. The actual rules themselves will follow.


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## Azzy (Jan 19, 2018)

Well... That escalated quickly.


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## darjr (Jan 19, 2018)

Wow, congratulations are due, but to WotC. They are the lucky ones to have her. And as far as optimizers go, I don’t think they have anything to worry about. She is absolutely about the role play but many folks I know would also put her in the capable optimizer camp.

Nice job whoever hired her, you’ve done WotC, and us, a favor.


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## BMaC (Jan 19, 2018)

This is great news!


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## thekindgm (Jan 19, 2018)

Congratulations. Seeing the D&D team grow bigger is nice. Maybe there is enough brain power now to start working on another setting.


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## WayOfTheFourElements (Jan 19, 2018)

Summary of Powergaming:
,
Type 1: A theoretical, intellectual puzzle of reason and mathematics.

Type 2: My imaginary p**** is bigger than your imaginary p****.

Personally, I'm willing to sacrifice type 1 in order to avoid type 2. Your mileage may differ.


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## Azzy (Jan 19, 2018)

Welcome aboard, Kate Welch, kick some ass (figuratively)!


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## mach1.9pants (Jan 19, 2018)

Azzy said:


> Welcome aboard, Kate Welch, kick some ass (figuratively)!




Kick some ass like a squishy marshmellow granny halfling! Great to see more people and perspectives coming into official DnD.


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## dave2008 (Jan 19, 2018)

Mathilda said:


> Ad Hoc and Dave...
> 
> Now I am curious... how many different players do you both normally play with... 1 table of maybe 5 or 6 players like a home game... or you expose yourselves to a bigger community?




I've only played with 2, mostly consistent, groups over 30 years.  About 18 people total.  However, several of my players are much more well versed and attend AL and Cons and such.  I've never directly asked them, but from our conversations it seems there experience is pretty much the same everywhere.  They have comments that at cons that some people can be more uptight.  But not as a rule.  But again that is very informal as that is not something I specifically remember discussing.


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## Schmoe (Jan 19, 2018)

Sqn Cdr Flashheart said:


> Kick some ass like a squishy marshmellow granny halfling! Great to see more people and perspectives coming into official DnD.




I think this is a pretty awesome hire by WotC for all the right reasons.  Looking forward to seeing what comes out of her setting book.


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## Hastati (Jan 19, 2018)

As someone who's been playing D&D for 40 years, I'm very glad to see WOTC hire someone who is young, seems creative from what I can gather, and generally grow the design team.  That's a good thing.  I wish her all the best.


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## Mr. Wilson (Jan 19, 2018)

Her background is in web design for those wondering.

I'm mostly just excited that a woman is joining the DnD design team.


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## hutchback (Jan 19, 2018)

MichaelSomething said:


> Has anyone here actually seen the C Team stream?  You know, the thing were people can literally watch her play D&D for hours at a time?  Wouldn't that provide as least some insight into how she handles D&D?




I watched almost the entire first season. It's a pretty entertaining liveplay.

As far as what we can learn about Kate's approach to D&D? Of all the people at the table, she pays the most attention, seems to have the best grasp of what her character abilities are, and how the rules work. She is seldom searching her character sheets for what to do or what dice to roll (To be fair to the rest of the C Team, a Monk is a much more straight-forward class to play than Druid, Warlock, etc.). Her character is admittedly not optimized because she finds the build more interesting to play. Her back story has provided rich fodder for the campaign. Although the entire table has a bend towards humor, I don't get the impression she is always going for the "Yuks." Her style is role-play rich, but she keeps it all pertinent to the game in front of her.

These are my impressions YMMV. How this will translate to her role as a designer? Hard to say, but I would feel incredibly lucky to have players like Kate at my table. At the very least D&D has a quality ambassador in her.


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## Pauper (Jan 19, 2018)

Maybe we'll get lucky and WotC will send her and other designers to GenCon where we can chat with them and sit down to play Adventurers League with them...oh, wait, WotC doesn't do GenCon anymore. *sadface*

I do hope some folks get to interact with her and ask some of the questions in this thread at the conventions WotC does patronize.

--
Pauper


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## robus (Jan 19, 2018)

Mathilda said:


> I disagree... I would imagine it is simple bell curve distribution.... with players that the play the game with zero dice rolling (i.e. heavy role players) and players that play the game with all dice mechanics and zero role playing being at the opposite ends with everyone else forming the bell by playing the game by utilizing both playstyles




I think your bell curve extremes are a bit "extreme"  - I don't think there are any D&D players that never roll the dice and I also don't think that there are any D&D players that never role-play.

Certainly there are tables that prefer to emphasize one or the other aspect of play - but to exclude it entirely??!


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## neobolts (Jan 19, 2018)

She has a number of skills that WotC needs...UI/application design, playtesting, geek podcasting, and worldbuilding. Plus, she is a part of the current "D&D as web series" trend as Morrus mentioned (with Penny Arcade's _C-Team_).

Just being a known face within the Penny Arcade empire would make someone a known quantity within WotC. Penny Arcade founded the PAX conventions, and co-founder Jerry "Tycho" Holkins wrote a haunt for Betrayal at the House on the Hill: Widow's Walk. 

But I think it is even more important that her design work during the Guild Wars 2 launch not be overlooked. The lore and worldbuilding for Guild Wars 2 was top-notch with Jeff Grubb (yes, _that_ Jeff Grubb, the Dragonlance and FR alum) as one of the lead worldbuilders. Her focus was the UI, but anyone on that team has probably been on WotC's radar for many years (and rightfully so). 


I'm going to drop this interview with her into the thread:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/36-the-c-teams-kate-welch
Also this old GW2 interview with Jeff Grubb:
http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/defining-the-lore-of-guild-wars-2-a-q-a-with-jeff-grubb


----------



## Tales and Chronicles (Jan 19, 2018)

I'll just tune in to say that I'm glad to have ENworld has a online community, you people are a breath of fresh air every time I read a new post after news like that. After seeing how the same topic went on the D&Dnext Reddit, I can assure you that you people must be fun to hang with, even if nobody ever agrees on what is a witch or warlord.  Such warm welcomes for a new designer, whatever her background, are a sign that the hobby holds a great, positive future.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jan 19, 2018)

Are those her real ears?


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## Demetrios1453 (Jan 19, 2018)

vincegetorix said:


> I'll just tune in to say that I'm glad to have ENworld has a online community, you people are a breath of fresh air every time I read a new post after news like that. After seeing how the same topic went on the D&Dnext Reddit, I can assure you that you people must be fun to hang with, even if nobody ever agrees on what is a witch or warlord.  Such warm welcomes for a new designer, whatever her background, are a sign that the hobby holds a great, positive future.




I started reading the Reddit thread after the carnage, and saw all the downvoted posts. I didn't click on them to read them, already having a sneaking suspicion of what they likely contained. The thread here, as you have mentioned, has gone much more reasonably, even with the rather random off-topic argument going on in the middle of it all...


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## Zarithar (Jan 19, 2018)

I like the dynamic she brings to the Acq-Inc shows and she definitely has a real passion for the game. Works for me! Congrats to her.


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## M.T. Black (Jan 19, 2018)

What a great choice! I'm really looking forward to seeing what she produces for our community!


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## Sorcerers Apprentice (Jan 19, 2018)

robus said:


> I think your bell curve extremes are a bit "extreme"  - I don't think there are any D&D players that never roll the dice and I also don't think that there are any D&D players that never role-play.
> 
> Certainly there are tables that prefer to emphasize one or the other aspect of play - but to exclude it entirely??!




You're wrong about your second assumption. I've played with a group who seem to have no idea that role-playing is even a thing, they approach D&D exactly the same way as a video game. 
5E is fun even when played as a straight dungeon crawler, which is why I've kept gaming with that gang


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## Pauper (Jan 19, 2018)

Sorcerers Apprentice said:


> 5E is fun even when played as a straight dungeon crawler, which is why I've kept gaming with that gang




I've played in those games and I'll agree they can be fun if that's what you're in the mood for.

My problem isn't so much with folks who want D&D to be a dungeon-crawler video game, though, as those who want it to be Dark Souls.

--
Pauper


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## hawkeyefan (Jan 19, 2018)

Kate’s great! She just played with the main AI team at PAX South for the second time and fit right in. Good for her. Glad to see them expanding the design team.


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## robus (Jan 19, 2018)

Sorcerers Apprentice said:


> You're wrong about your second assumption. I've played with a group who seem to have no idea that role-playing is even a thing, they approach D&D exactly the same way as a video game.
> 5E is fun even when played as a straight dungeon crawler, which is why I've kept gaming with that gang




So they don’t make choices for their characters? I would posit that not role-playing is impossible in a role-playing game


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## Ranger REG (Jan 19, 2018)

Congrats. I have but one question: Besides 5e, what other editions do you also like to play or have enjoyed playing?


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## jessiuz (Jan 20, 2018)

I know Kate plays 5E, but has she ever DM'd 5th edition? UX/UI credits on a few video games doesn't really seem like relevant experience to me. I'm really scratching my head as to why Wizards would pick her for this position.


Here is the job listing. Judge for yourself.


*Game Designer, Dungeons & Dragons*
Location:	WA - Renton
Employment Type:	Regular
ID:	12674
Job Category:	WOTC - Marketing, Brand & Community Management


*Description*


Do you want to help inspire the next generation of novelists, comic book artists, game designers, actors, and directors? Would you like to draw upon 40 years of D&D mythology to create the next generation of great D&D games and RPG supplements? Would you like to help cultivate a positive, inclusive community of gamers and creators? If those challenges sound interesting, we would like you to consider joining the Dungeons & Dragons team.


This position creates D&D products, such as a book updating a setting to 5th edition Dungeons & Dragons. It is responsible for leading one product at a time, while providing feedback on other products in production. The person in this role is responsible for the final product, and must oversee and coordinate the work of designers, writers, and editors to combine individual contributions into a cohesive whole. This position is also responsible for ensuring that the product is consistent with D&D game mechanics and that new game material is properly playtested.


*DAY-TO-DAY RESPONSIBILITIES FOR THIS WIZARD*


-Help create new product concepts and translate those ideas into actionable product outlines and specification documents.
-Take part in writing groups, helping to brainstorm story details for new elements of D&D’s worlds and stories, such as heroes, villains, monsters, and worlds.
-Oversee the production of new D&D products, coordinating work between writers, designers, and editors to create a cohesive manuscript.
-Create art orders for products, provide input to art directors on art produced for a product to ensure it is consistent with a product’s contents.
-Review game material to ensure it is consistent with D&D game mechanics and styles, coordinate playtest efforts and apply feedback, participate in postmortem exercises to provide feedback to team members and to improve work processes.


*Problem Solving*


-Brainstorm interesting new ways to use and present classic D&D story elements in gaming products.
-Tackle the people problems that arise in working on a group project, such as keeping someone motivated after delivering tough feedback.
-Manage schedules to understand when a product slips and how to correct for that by identifying and focusing on the right issues. Determine the right questions to ask about a troubled project before taking action.
-Find ways to express new ideas within existing game mechanics and without upsetting a game’s balance.
-Identify the easiest, simplest way to express complex concepts.
-Understand the D&D audience of creators (tabletop DMs and licensing partners) well enough to anticipate their needs and provide inspiring story material before they ask for it.


*AM I QUALIFIED? (Knowledge, Skills and Abilities)*


-Does the idea of building a D&D product outline, and then shepherding that outline into a finished product, excite you?
-Do you like to play games, analyze games, and think about how to make them better?
-Are you an awesome Dungeon Master who weaves stories that captivate your players?
-Do you like creating new content for your favorite games?
-Do you like to collaborate with others on creative products?
-Have you been involved in a community of gamers that was inclusive and welcoming?
-Would you say that you have an eye for detail?
-Does working on lots of details that must be coordinated across a product sound exciting?
-Were you excited about diving into the latest edition of the Chicago Manual of Style?
-Do you feel comfortable building spreadsheets to analyze the math behind a game system?


*Experience Creating and Casting these Spells:*


-Experience playing and DMing D&D 5th edition required.
-At least three product credits (books, board games, video games, and the like) required, tabletop or digital RPGs preferred.
-Experience refining someone else’s game design, writing, or both into publishable form required.
-Experience using software/scripting (spreadsheets, GREP, and the like) to aid analysis and text modification required.
-Experience using Word, Excel, and text styles required
-Familiarity with the Chicago Manual of Style required
-Mastery of English grammar required
-Comfortability with algebra or higher math required
-Experience with InDesign preferred


*Knowledge, Abilities and Characteristics of the Ideal Wizard:*


-Knowledge of fantasy movies, novels, and other forms of entertainment necessary.
-Knowledge of fantasy roleplaying games, both tabletop and video games, necessary.
-Love of collaboration and teamwork, comfort having honest, open conversations with team members.


*Physical Requirements:*


Office environment, able to work on computer or phone for long periods of time.
We are an Equal Opportunity / Affirmative Action Employer.
The above is intended to describe the general content of and the requirements for satisfactory performance in this position.  It is not to be construed as an exhaustive statement of the duties, responsibilities, or requirements of the position.


For more information about careers at Hasbro become a fan on Facebook, follow us on Twitter and join our careers group on LinkedIn.


----------



## darjr (Jan 20, 2018)

Wait? How many candidate would you have KNOWN to be a good DM or not? Do you know she isn’t?

Just because she is a player in those streams doesn’t mean she only plays.


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## ad_hoc (Jan 20, 2018)

It doesn't list anywhere that the applicant must be a known DM (or player) in media.


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## Azzy (Jan 20, 2018)

What's with the people questioning her qualifications? Dude, really, I think that if WotC hired her that they feel that she met their qualifications. And I think they have better clue about that than any one on these boards. Go find some other thing to complain about.


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## redrick (Jan 20, 2018)

jessiuz said:


> I know Kate plays 5E, but has she ever DM'd 5th edition? UX/UI credits on a few video games doesn't really seem like relevant experience to me. I'm really scratching my head as to why Wizards would pick her for this position.
> 
> 
> Here is the job listing. Judge for yourself.




Nah, seriously, don't judge for yourself. You weren't at the interview. You don't have her resume. You didn't talk to her references. It is absolutely under no circumstances your purview to judge or question the _qualifications_ of a hire from an armchair.

You are welcome to disagree with any public statements she might have made about the directions she believes D&D should go, or even her track record of directions other projects have gone after she stepped on board, but to pull up a job description and imply that she doesn't meet the basic requirements? That's even more off-base than the suggestion that, because she enjoys campaigns that can be low on combat, she will screw over the power gamers in the player base.


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## redrick (Jan 20, 2018)

Ranger REG said:


> Congrats. I have but one question: Besides 5e, what other editions do you also like to play or have enjoyed playing?




Who is "you"? Are we role-playing an interview?

DM: Kate Welch steps into the room and sits down. "Thanks for agreeing to interview me for this position, internet forum. Wizards has already offered me the job, but it's important for me to get your approval before I actually move into my office."
PLAYER 1: Ok, so my character is going to stay standing. They're going to nod as Kate walks in and then give a tight lipped smile. "Congrats on getting the job." Then they're going to lean forward and put their hands on the table in front of us. "I have but one question. Besides 5e, what other editions do you also like to play or have enjoyed playing?"
DM: Ok, roll for, umm, Intimidate?
PLAYER 1: Can I use my proficiency in Performance? Because of the way I put my hands on the table in a dramatic way? I actually don't have Intimidate.


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## doctorhook (Jan 20, 2018)

This is all well and good, and I'm glad they're bringing in some new blood, but when will Gleemax be finished??


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## Henry (Jan 20, 2018)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> Are those her real ears?




[William Shatner voice]Yes... she... had an unfortunate accident as a child.... She caught her head... in a mechanical... rice picker...[/William Shatner voice]



doctorhook said:


> This is all well and good, and I'm glad they're bringing in some new blood, but when will Gleemax be finished??



[Alec Guinness voice]Now there’s a name I haven’t heard in a long time... A LONG time.[Alec Guinness voice]

More seriously, congrats to Kate, and I hope it means many good products to come.


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## TheCosmicKid (Jan 20, 2018)

Pauper said:


> My problem isn't so much with folks who want D&D to be a dungeon-crawler video game, though, as those who want it to be Dark Souls.



Huh? What is Dark Souls if not a dungeon crawler?


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## chibi graz'zt (Jan 20, 2018)

Hope she gets paid as much as a man would in that position; congrats Kate!!


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## Cergorach (Jan 20, 2018)

Azzy said:


> What's with the people questioning her qualifications? Dude, really, I think that if WotC hired her that they feel that she met their qualifications. And I think they have better clue about that than any one on these boards. Go find some other thing to complain about.




It's not that strange when the 'article' Morrus posted only talks about a new D&D Designer at WotC. I didn't know this person, so I went looking at what her pnp RPG publishing credentials were, there are none. I think that very strange that someone who has no pnp rpg publishing experience should be designing D&D products. Now, people have to start somewhere, but that usually isn't on D&D (the last two decades). Getting started with a 'lower ranked' publisher, sure, no big deal. But D&D is pretty much top dog in pnp RPG land.

Hiring a beautiful woman steeped in Geek culture does seem suspect with such little information. Especially with all the crap from both sides of the isle on the women in gaming issue over the last decade. That suspicion doesn't come to me naturally, ENworld.org and similar sites/blogs have 'educated' me on the matter. An education I would have liked to have skipped mind you!

Someone posted the job listing and I can totally see why miss Welch would qualify, when you look at her graphic design experience and work on GW2, that absolutely qualifies with what WotC is asking for. I'm not sure I agree with WotC also accepting work on video games as relevant experience (with no pnp experience along side it), I'm still not happy how much 4E felt like a video game with little soul. On one hand I can see why WotC would want to hire someone who worked on such a big property as GW2, D&D can benefit from that (financially), on the other hand I don't know if I like D&D going toward the mainstream route (I like that it's more accepted, but mainstream often feels dumbed down).


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## seebs (Jan 20, 2018)

Mathilda said:


> It is only true.... I am advocating inclusiveness to ALL types of players... you are advocating only to include players you deem fit to play the game you seem to want.
> 
> At least you got the analogy.... kudos




Except that's not true at all. You're assuming that hiring one designer who is a "heavy roleplayer", to work with several other designers, is "excluding" people who aren't heavy roleplayers. That's nonsense! The number-crunchy side of things is not lacking for support. Adding a heavy roleplayer to the mix is not excluding anyone, and is not advocating "only including" non-powergamers. It's improving support for heavy roleplayers.


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## Mistwell (Jan 20, 2018)

While I think any new D&D hire is newsworthy, I don't understand why this one is in particular newsworthy or why this conversation has gone on this long or why anyone would be concerned. It's just a design hire. She seems fine for that job. Why is this hire different from other hires such that it's getting this much attention?


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## seebs (Jan 20, 2018)

Mistwell said:


> While I think any new D&D hire is newsworthy, I don't understand why this one is in particular newsworthy or why this conversation has gone on this long or why anyone would be concerned. It's just a design hire. She seems fine for that job. Why is this hire different from other hires such that it's getting this much attention?




Please identify some of these "other hires". So far as I can tell, this is the first actual designer-level hire for D&D since 5e came out, unless I forgot someone?


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## seebs (Jan 20, 2018)

Azzy said:


> What's with the people questioning her qualifications? Dude, really, I think that if WotC hired her that they feel that she met their qualifications. And I think they have better clue about that than any one on these boards. Go find some other thing to complain about.




Past entry-level jobs, "qualifications" are nearly always optional. Source: I'm a professional programmer on the high end of "senior" and I've never taken a CS class.


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## Cergorach (Jan 20, 2018)

Mistwell said:


> While I think any new D&D hire is newsworthy, I don't understand why this one is in particular newsworthy or why this conversation has gone on this long or why anyone would be concerned. It's just a design hire. She seems fine for that job. Why is this hire different from other hires such that it's getting this much attention?




That's because it's a follow up on this article:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?4647-WotC-Is-Hiring-A-New-D-D-Game-Designer
And that one also went quite long and at the time no one was specifically mentioned for it (either male or female).

And this one went on quite long as well:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?2580-Sean-K-Reynolds-just-rehired-by-WotC

And this one:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/conten...-Arrives-From-Microsoft-As-Greg-Leeds-Resigns

So a long discussion isn't strange on a new or a rehire.


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## Mistwell (Jan 20, 2018)

seebs said:


> Please identify some of these "other hires". So far as I can tell, this is the first actual designer-level hire for D&D since 5e came out, unless I forgot someone?




Naw Morrus just doesn't report on most of their hires and departures (because I assume others are not letting him know and he can't be trolling LinkedIn every day for this sort of stuff). I've said before my glance at linkedin hires shows they've basically doubled their staff since the launch of D&D but for some reason that gets ignored and people continue to make the claim that D&D is working on a "skeleton crew". 

Now maybe my count is wrong. I am not being precise with it, drilling down on each person and title. But, it's looked that way to me for a while. This is not a "senior" position we're talking about with Kate Welch. It's just another lower level position - one of over a dozen (of various tasks and titles) I think that WOTC has either assigned over or borrowed over from the Magic side of things, the Hasbro side of things. or new hired.


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## seebs (Jan 20, 2018)

Mistwell said:


> Naw Morrus just doesn't report on most of their hires and departures (because I assume others are not letting him know and he can't be trolling LinkedIn every day for this sort of stuff). I've said before my glance at linkedin hires shows they've basically doubled their staff since the launch of D&D but for some reason that gets ignored and people continue to make the claim that D&D is working on a "skeleton crew".
> 
> Now maybe my count is wrong. I am not being precise with it, drilling down on each person and title. But, it's looked that way to me for a while. This is not a "senior" position we're talking about with Kate Welch. It's just another lower level position - one of over a dozen (of various tasks and titles) I think that WOTC has either assigned over or borrowed over from the Magic side of things, the Hasbro side of things. or new hired.




So, in that case: Part of the issue is that since we don't _hear_ about the others, this looks like a bigger deal. But we also have the usual thing where hiring a person with boobs for anything related to video games or tabletop games invokes a long-running feud. Thus, 9+ page thread about a thing that is apparently not all that unusual.


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## Parmandur (Jan 20, 2018)

Mistwell said:


> Naw Morrus just doesn't report on most of their hires and departures (because I assume others are not letting him know and he can't be trolling LinkedIn every day for this sort of stuff). I've said before my glance at linkedin hires shows they've basically doubled their staff since the launch of D&D but for some reason that gets ignored and people continue to make the claim that D&D is working on a "skeleton crew".
> 
> Now maybe my count is wrong. I am not being precise with it, drilling down on each person and title. But, it's looked that way to me for a while. This is not a "senior" position we're talking about with Kate Welch. It's just another lower level position - one of over a dozen (of various tasks and titles) I think that WOTC has either assigned over or borrowed over from the Magic side of things, the Hasbro side of things. or new hired.



Actually, that's not the case here: she was brought on to be in a similar role to Crawford and Perkins: Mearls made a big deal on social media about hiring a new book lead, they broke WotC HR system with applicants. She will be responsible for being lead on a book every year, which is a major impact on 5E. Good for her.

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app


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## Mistwell (Jan 20, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Actually, that's not the case here: she was brought on to be in a similar role to Crawford and Perkins: Mearls made a big deal on social media about hiring a new book lead, they broke WotC HR system with applicants. She will be responsible for being lead on a book every year, which is a major impact on 5E. Good for her.
> 
> Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app




She does not have the title level of Crawford, who is "D&D Lead Designer and Managing Editor".  Her title is I believe "Designer, D&D Team". I don't know about Perkins, but she is not at the level of Crawford. I don't even think she's one below the level of Crawford, I think she's two below him on that org chart. Mearls did not make a "big deal" about it in my opinion, he just made a mention of it and others made a big deal out of it. This is a fairly low level design job.  What's all the hubbub about?


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## Parmandur (Jan 20, 2018)

Mistwell said:


> She does not have the title level of Crawford, who is "D&D Lead Designer and Managing Editor".  Her title is I believe "Designer, D&D Team". I don't know about Perkins, but she is not at the level of Crawford. I don't even think she's one below the level of Crawford, I think she's two below him on that org chart. Mearls did not make a "big deal" about it in my opinion, he just made a mention of it and others made a big deal out of it. This is a fairly low level design job.  What's all the hubbub about?



Again, look at the job rec: she'll be the project lead on a book every year, writing, designing and coordinating other resources. This is not a low level job. It will have an effect on the 5E line. Still, it's not that big a deal, but there are some weird strains of jealousy in this thread.

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app


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## Sorcerers Apprentice (Jan 20, 2018)

robus said:


> So they don’t make choices for their characters? I would posit that not role-playing is impossible in a role-playing game




Wrong again!  They do of course make choices, but every choice is is grounded in tactical or metagame concerns, no decision is character driven. You might as well call playing Monopoly to be roleplaying.


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## robus (Jan 20, 2018)

Sorcerers Apprentice said:


> Wrong again!  They do of course make choices, but every choice is is grounded in tactical or metagame concerns, no decision is character driven. You might as well call playing Monopoly to be roleplaying.




And no social interactions with NPCs ever? And no interactions with the environment?


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## Mistwell (Jan 20, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Again, look at the job rec: she'll be the project lead on a book every year, writing, designing and coordinating other resources. This is not a low level job.




In terms of the design team, it really is low level. Are you still claiming she is equal ("similar role") to Crawford (D&D Lead Designer and Managing Editor), or have you punted on that claim?


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## Parmandur (Jan 20, 2018)

Mistwell said:


> In terms of the design team, it really is low level. Are you still claiming she is equal ("similar role") to Crawford, or have you punted on that claim?



She is responsible for overseeing a book a year: design-wise, that's not low level at all. I'm not going to argue on the org chart, but do note that it has been changed recently with Mearl's promotion.

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app


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## Mistwell (Jan 20, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> She is responsible for overseeing a book a year: design-wise, that's not low level at all. I'm not going to argue on the org chart, but do note that it has been changed recently with Mearl's promotion.
> 
> Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app




If it's not low level, then name one person below her on the design team. I am pretty sure the answer is "there is nobody". She is the lowest level of the design team. I mean are you arguing she has more responsibilities than some people on the design team of another company like Paizo or prior iterations of WOTC for prior editions or something? Because in terms of WOTC right now, this isn't a subjective question. As far as I know she is, literally, the lowest person on the totem poll for the design team.


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## Kobold Boots (Jan 20, 2018)

This conversation has gotten rather stupid.  

Congratulations Kate.

KB


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## Parmandur (Jan 20, 2018)

Mistwell said:


> If it's not low level, then name one person below her on the design team. I am pretty sure the answer is "there is nobody". She is the lowest level of the design team. I mean are you arguing she has more responsibilities than some people on the design team of another company like Paizo or prior iterations of WOTC for prior editions or something? Because in terms of WOTC right now, this isn't a subjective question. As far as I know she is, literally, the lowest person on the totem poll for the design team.



Um, the team is her, Crawford and Perkins under Mearls: so, by seniority and title, sure, nobody is lower in that group. But she has much more responsibility than many other people already employed, such as Matt Sernett.

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app


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## darjr (Jan 20, 2018)

Wow Miswell, just say what your thinking. Stop hiding the ball.

The position is a big deal because it was the first open general call to the community that I recall. It was a big deal BEFORE she was hired. I even ask a round our local community because it was a weird open call for them.


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## Azzy (Jan 20, 2018)

Cergorach said:


> It's not that strange when the 'article' Morrus posted only talks about a new D&D Designer at WotC. I didn't know this person, so I went looking at what her pnp RPG publishing credentials were, there are none. I think that very strange that someone who has no pnp rpg publishing experience should be designing D&D products. Now, people have to start somewhere, but that usually isn't on D&D (the last two decades). Getting started with a 'lower ranked' publisher, sure, no big deal. But D&D is pretty much top dog in pnp RPG land.
> 
> Hiring a beautiful woman steeped in Geek culture does seem suspect with such little information. Especially with all the crap from both sides of the isle on the women in gaming issue over the last decade. That suspicion doesn't come to me naturally, ENworld.org and similar sites/blogs have 'educated' me on the matter. An education I would have liked to have skipped mind you!




So, what I'm getting here is that if the hire hadn't been a woman, and an attractive one at that, the forum wouldn't be in armchair quarterback mode in regards to the qualifications of the hire.


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## redrick (Jan 20, 2018)

Mistwell said:


> If it's not low level, then name one person below her on the design team. I am pretty sure the answer is "there is nobody". She is the lowest level of the design team. I mean are you arguing she has more responsibilities than some people on the design team of another company like Paizo or prior iterations of WOTC for prior editions or something? Because in terms of WOTC right now, this isn't a subjective question. As far as I know she is, literally, the lowest person on the totem poll for the design team.




I'm not sure where you are going with this? What is the point of minimizing her position as much as possible?

We go from, "cool, congrats, Wizards added somebody new to the D&D design team and she seems like a good addition to the team!" to "Wait, I'm not sure that _she_ is qualified, let's go over _her_ qualifications with a fine-tooth comb" to, "No worry, guys! There's no need to be sexist, her job is super insignificant!"


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## Azzy (Jan 20, 2018)

seebs said:


> Past entry-level jobs, "qualifications" are nearly always optional. Source: I'm a professional programmer on the high end of "senior" and I've never taken a CS class.




Irrelevant. WotC still has a better understanding of her qualifications than the community. Also, it's WotC that's hiring her, not the community.


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## Kobold Boots (Jan 20, 2018)

Azzy said:


> So, what I'm getting here is that if the hire hadn't been a woman, and an attractive one at that, the forum wouldn't be in armchair quarterback mode in regards to the qualifications of the hire.




I think what people don't understand is that most people who are hired for jobs are not qualified to do them based on the majority of what's asked for in any job description.  Success is determined by a few key traits in any job for any person and most of the requirements are to not be afraid to apply, not be afraid to take risks and be willing to listen and learn from the rest of your team.

I'd think for this sort of design role, which is junior but still responsible for quite a bit, passion and talent is way more important than experience.  It's not like she doesn't have everyone else on the team to learn from and she just came out of nowhere.

So I'm going to chalk most of this thread up to.
1. Bunch of armchairs wishing they'd applied
2. Yes, some of it is misogyny, but you'll never get anyone to admit it.

Again, Congrats Kate.
KB


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## Mistwell (Jan 20, 2018)

redrick said:


> I'm not sure where you are going with this? What is the point of minimizing her position as much as possible?




I am not minimizing "her" position, I am minimizing the position itself as not that big a deal. It's not that the position is insignificant, it's that there have been a dozen people hired who are roughly as important to the team in the past few years and I have not seen any deal made out of those hires. I guess because this one was done through a community appeal rather than strictly through the HR department? 

I don't understand why people would be up in arms about a simple design hire. I think she is perfectly fine for the job, I am just not sure why people seem so concerned about this position to begin with, when they had no concern over any other hires recently. And I guess I am coming to the conclusion it's because there was little to no coverage of those other hires, mostly because they were not done through a community appeal I guess?


----------



## Mistwell (Jan 20, 2018)

darjr said:


> Wow Miswell, just say what your thinking. Stop hiding the ball.
> 
> The position is a big deal because it was the first open general call to the community that I recall. It was a big deal BEFORE she was hired. I even ask a round our local community because it was a weird open call for them.




Yeah I am getting the sense that is in fact the difference here, the community appeal that was made. That doesn't make the hire more or less important than all the other hires that have happened in the past few years, but it does make it more highlighted for a community like this one.


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## schnee (Jan 20, 2018)

Mathilda said:


> Target audience.... I would say no.....powergaming community is never the target audience for a game, especially DnD.  My point is that the designers should include their perspective as well as the other extreme of heavy roleplay when adding to the game




Dissenting opinion.

Nah, powergamers distort the game for everyone else in a negative way to a tremendous degree. They're also a distinct minority of the current audience. They're like the violent sociopath living in a warm, open, giving community that forces everyone else to lock their doors due to fear and intimidation. If anything, the game needs to dissuade them - there are way better systems for them *cough* Pathfinder *cough* and they belong with those systems instead.


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## Parmandur (Jan 20, 2018)

Mistwell said:


> I am not minimizing "her" position, I am minimizing the position itself as not that big a deal. It's not that the position is insignificant, it's that there have been a dozen people hired who are roughly as important to the team in the past few years and I have not seen any deal made out of those hires. I guess because this one was done through a community appeal rather than strictly through the HR department?
> 
> I don't understand why people would be up in arms about a simple design hire. I think she is perfectly fine for the job, I am just not sure why people seem so concerned about this position to begin with, when they had no concern over any other hires recently. And I guess I am coming to the conclusion it's because there was little to no coverage of those other hires, mostly because they were not done through a community appeal I guess?



How many of those other recent hires are primarily responsible for a third of the annual product?

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app


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## Mistwell (Jan 20, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> How many of those other recent hires are primarily responsible for a third of the annual product?
> 
> Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app




This position is not responsible for a third of the annual sales though. A huge portion of the annual sales is the core books. This position is a lead designer on one new book a year, which will then be reviewed by a higher up designer, and then be reviewed by a higher up editor. So while not insignificant, it's about the same level as most of the other hires they'e made for art and content and editing over the years.  That doesn't mean those people are as important to your personal interests - you may not be as into the art and editing and formatting and such as you are the design.  But in terms of the D&D team itself, this is not on the level of "one third of the entire team's responsibilities". It's not even a management position as far as I know. 

And understand where most of my difficulties are coming from is the ongoing claim, which as far as I know you've never made, that WOTC's D&D team is operating on "a skeleton crew". That claim has been made by several people here at ENW, and it's a false claim. The D&D team is much bigger than it used to be. And making a huge deal (130 posts so far) out of ONE new non-manager designer being hired just helps those "skeleton crew" claiming people reinforce their argument. 

Which is what I am really after here - let's not reinforce that "skeleton crew" claim by making it seem like hiring one new non-managerial designer is hugely significant to the D&D team overall that it's like adding another 1/3 more of the team. That wasn't the intent of your argument, but I can guarantee that's the spin some others will put on it. 

The position is meaningful. But, it's also in the context of a much larger team than what used to be at WOTC for D&D. Just because this one was done through a community appeal, doesn't mean all those other hires WOTC quietly engaged in through their normal HR department are diminished either, or that somehow this hire meaningfully increases the number of people working on the D&D team. 

I am glad they hired someone for this position, and I think this person will be good in the position. Just, don't reinforce the trolls out there claiming D&D is operating on a skeleton crew by shooting off fireworks over a single hire like it's taken three years to hire one new person to the team.


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## Corpsetaker (Jan 20, 2018)

I think it's a waste of a hire. I think the D&D team needs an experienced designer who can bring about some different products to the line.


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## zedturtle (Jan 20, 2018)

Corpsetaker said:


> I think it's a waste of a hire. I think the D&D team needs an experienced designer who can bring about some different products to the line.




As opposed to a fresh set of eyes that bring different products to the line?

— • —

More seriously, congratulations to Kate!


----------



## WayOfTheFourElements (Jan 20, 2018)

Corpsetaker said:


> I think it's a waste of a hire. I think the D&D team needs an experienced designer who can bring about some different products to the line.




I figure they wanted to hire a women to be more "progressive', and she was the best who applied.

That's what I hate most about this age of identity politics and affirmative action - you never know if targeted groups get into universities spots and job positions because they deserve it or because of they were the best from the university/business's pre-selected identity group.

Alternatively, maybe she's the best candidate for the job. Truth is, we'll never know.


----------



## Cergorach (Jan 20, 2018)

Azzy said:


> So, what I'm getting here is that if the hire hadn't been a woman, and an attractive one at that, the forum wouldn't be in armchair quarterback mode in regards to the qualifications of the hire.




[synic]
I suspect that there would be a less comments. I would still have been curious about the new designer and would still have noted that there's no pnp RPG publishing credits. I don't know if someone would have posted the WotC requirements and I would have asked in the thread why this person would have gotten the job without pnp RPG credentials. Someone would have posted the WotC requirements and we would have been here without the gender 'thing'.
[/synic]

As for the whole gender 'thing', I grew up in the Netherlands, apparently a country where Gender Equality is a whole lot further along then it is in the US (or even the UK). Pre-puberty I had more female friends then male friends, I played with Barbies before I ever played with G.I. Joes. If boys did something against girls that wasn't acceptable you did something about it, just as you did something about girls against girls and boys against boys. Have I seen some horrible stuff that happens to females more then to males, unfortunately yes. But the toxic environment here and on many other sites and blogs when 'gender' related stuff comes up is unprecedented and oh the fool that wanders into the aisle between the two camps! Honestly, in my view the activists have done more harm to their cause then anyone else. And many have buckled under their pressure to do the wrong thing for the right reason, hiring people based on a perceived quota instead of on ability. When I actively try to avoid the newspapers, radio, regular news sites, and television in general, I still get infected by this... Crap here! Let me be clear in this case, after reading the requirements list from WotC, looking at her portfolio and my own experience recruiting/vetting people, miss Welch is a perfect candidate for the job. I also have no clue how she did in the interview, my experience is also that things on paper don't mean everything, I expect she did great as she got the job.

Imho the constant recurring argument is ineffectual, you don't tell people to change, you show people to change. Give the right example and others will follow. Expecting that everyone will follow is imho counterproductive, you raise people's hackles and achieve the opposite effect... Beating the gender or racial bias out of people just doesn't work, especially when your being an arrogant prick about it...


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## Azzy (Jan 20, 2018)

WayOfTheFourElements said:


> I figure they wanted to hire a women to be more "progressive', and she was the best who applied.
> 
> That's what I hate most about this age of identity politics and affirmative action - you never know if targeted groups get into universities spots and job positions because they deserve it or because of they were the best from the university/business's pre-selected identity group.
> 
> Alternatively, maybe she's the best candidate for the job. Truth is, we'll never know.




Thank you for a reprehensible post.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jan 20, 2018)

Mistwell said:


> This position is not responsible for a third of the annual sales though.




Parmandur said product, not sales, as in she is now responsible for one of three new products per year.


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## Schmoe (Jan 20, 2018)

Mistwell said:


> I am not minimizing "her" position, I am minimizing the position itself as not that big a deal. It's not that the position is insignificant, it's that there have been a dozen people hired who are roughly as important to the team in the past few years and I have not seen any deal made out of those hires. I guess because this one was done through a community appeal rather than strictly through the HR department?
> 
> I don't understand why people would be up in arms about a simple design hire. I think she is perfectly fine for the job, I am just not sure why people seem so concerned about this position to begin with, when they had no concern over any other hires recently. And I guess I am coming to the conclusion it's because there was little to no coverage of those other hires, mostly because they were not done through a community appeal I guess?




If I recall, a lot of the initial excitement with this position was because the description implied that the position would be responsible for a new setting book.  With all of the conversations about the 5e approach to setting resources, that is what originally focused the spotlight on the position.  That's probably also why Morrus posted when it was filled, because the nature of the position itself is of such interest to the community here.


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## Parmandur (Jan 20, 2018)

Mistwell said:


> This position is not responsible for a third of the annual sales though. A huge portion of the annual sales is the core books. This position is a lead designer on one new book a year, which will then be reviewed by a higher up designer, and then be reviewed by a higher up editor. So while not insignificant, it's about the same level as most of the other hires they'e made for art and content and editing over the years.  That doesn't mean those people are as important to your personal interests - you may not be as into the art and editing and formatting and such as you are the design.  But in terms of the D&D team itself, this is not on the level of "one third of the entire team's responsibilities". It's not even a management position as far as I know.
> 
> And understand where most of my difficulties are coming from is the ongoing claim, which as far as I know you've never made, that WOTC's D&D team is operating on "a skeleton crew". That claim has been made by several people here at ENW, and it's a false claim. The D&D team is much bigger than it used to be. And making a huge deal (130 posts so far) out of ONE new non-manager designer being hired just helps those "skeleton crew" claiming people reinforce their argument.
> 
> ...



Certainly they haven't been working with a skeleton crew, but that doesn't take away from this being a major position on the team.

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app


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## Parmandur (Jan 20, 2018)

Corpsetaker said:


> I think it's a waste of a hire. I think the D&D team needs an experienced designer who can bring about some different products to the line.



Well, just because someone is experienced or not won't make you like or dislike their work: few are more experienced than Chris Perkins, not your favorite designer by a long shot.

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app


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## Mistwell (Jan 20, 2018)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Parmandur said product, not sales, as in she is now responsible for one of three new products per year.




Yes I know. That's the "though" part of the sentence which was further explained by the "A huge portion of the annual sales is the core books. This position is *a lead designer on one new book a year*". Also noteworthy is the D&D division sells more than just books. They sell a ton of PDFs of older product, some non-book RPG products like DM screens, some licensed IP, etc.. The books relatively important to us here on what is mostly an RPG book discussion message board, but it's not even 1/3 of their new products per year, much less one third of their sales per year. 




Schmoe said:


> If I recall, a lot of the initial excitement with this position was because the description implied that the position would be responsible for a new setting book.  With all of the conversations about the 5e approach to setting resources, that is what originally focused the spotlight on the position.  That's probably also why Morrus posted when it was filled, because the nature of the position itself is of such interest to the community here.




I sure hope she, or someone, works on a setting book. My bias is for Greyhawk. 



Parmandur said:


> Certainly they haven't been working with a skeleton crew, but that doesn't take away from this being a major position on the team.
> 
> Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app




Really all I care about is making sure the "skeleton crew" guys don't get support for their position. If you think of this as a major position on the team, I am fine with that. I think she will be good. I hope she works on a setting book.


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## Corpsetaker (Jan 20, 2018)

Looks like WoTc are just following their trend of employing those without experience. Reminds me of the whole N-Space, Sword Coast Legends fiasco. They hired a company that is mainly associated with mobile phone games to create a PC game.


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## Henry (Jan 20, 2018)

Keep in mind that most of the “skeleton crew” perception originated from 2014 to early 2015, when they had all of 8 people working on the core design team, compared to Paizo’s (at the time) about 20 full-time staffers. (I don’t have the reference links, but I remember even Erik Mina chiming in with definitive info on Paizo’s full-time vs. freelance numbers). I know because I was one of ones to make the comparison of “half the size of Paizo’s team” at the time. They’ve grown greatly since then, and more power to them for doing so. With a little luck, it means that they’ll continue to increase their product flow a little bit into some different venues or media and keep the expansion of D&D humming along.


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## Parmandur (Jan 20, 2018)

Corpsetaker said:


> Looks like WoTc are just following their trend of employing those without experience. Reminds me of the whole N-Space, Sword Coast Legends fiasco. They hired a company that is mainly associated with mobile phone games to create a PC game.



WotC didn't hire N-Space at all, N-Space came to WotC with money and a proposal, and WotC took a risk. Until such a time as Hasbro has their own studio again (which gave us Neverwinter Nights), established studios aren't going to pay WotC to make a game, so they have to pick and choose which risks to take when accepting other people's money for the license. Very different from hiring an experienced creative artist and project manager to manage creative projects.

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app


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## Guest 6801328 (Jan 20, 2018)

Corpsetaker said:


> Looks like WoTc are just following their trend of employing those without experience. Reminds me of the whole N-Space, Sword Coast Legends fiasco. They hired a company that is mainly associated with mobile phone games to create a PC game.




Yes, we all know you are bitterly resentful that 5e isn't optimized for powergamers, and think you would have done a much better job yourself.  You've made that amply clear in just about every post you've made.

/yawn


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## Kobold Boots (Jan 20, 2018)

On "skeleton crew" and 20 at Paizo vs. 8 at WoTC

More headcount does not definitely cause better products or even more products.  It simply adds more people to meetings and may occasionally result in more products in a shorter timeframe.

Personally, I shudder when I see more than 3-5 serious products (re: not DM screens and such) on an annual release schedule.  It just means less quality overall.


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## Parmandur (Jan 21, 2018)

Kobold Boots said:


> On "skeleton crew" and 20 at Paizo vs. 8 at WoTC
> 
> More headcount does not definitely cause better products or even more products.  It simply adds more people to meetings and may occasionally result in more products in a shorter timeframe.
> 
> Personally, I shudder when I see more than 3-5 serious products (re: not DM screens and such) on an annual release schedule.  It just means less quality overall.



It's not the size of your staff, it's what you do with it. 

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app


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## Henry (Jan 21, 2018)

Kobold Boots said:


> On "skeleton crew" and 20 at Paizo vs. 8 at WoTC
> 
> More headcount does not definitely cause better products or even more products.  It simply adds more people to meetings and may occasionally result in more products in a shorter timeframe.
> 
> Personally, I shudder when I see more than 3-5 serious products (re: not DM screens and such) on an annual release schedule.  It just means less quality overall.




I’ll have to disagree on that second point - reference the production values and design of of something like Starfinder as compared to Xanathar’s or Tomb of Annihilation, both are quite good, and Paizo has already turned out two major rule books and half an adventure path in five month’s time. In my opinion Paizo’s production values are better (one particular crappy print run notwithstanding) in art, cohesion, layout, and reference aids, though.

As for the first point, I agree - size of team does not directly equate to quality, it comes down to team cohesion, strength of vision, and skill/talent of personnel. Wizards has regained their stride and recaptured the market, due in part to the quality of game that the Wizards team put together, but also due in part to people like Welch, Holkins & Krahulik, and Mercer’s Critical Role crew,  and the whole RPG market has benefitted from it.


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## Arilyn (Jan 21, 2018)

schnee said:


> Dissenting opinion.
> 
> Nah, powergamers distort the game for everyone else in a negative way to a tremendous degree. They're also a distinct minority of the current audience. They're like the violent sociopath living in a warm, open, giving community that forces everyone else to lock their doors due to fear and intimidation. If anything, the game needs to dissuade them - there are way better systems for them *cough* Pathfinder *cough* and they belong with those systems instead.




Oh no, we don't want them over at PF either....


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## Kobold Boots (Jan 21, 2018)

Henry said:


> I’ll have to disagree on that second point - reference the production values and design of of something like Starfinder as compared to Xanathar’s or Tomb of Annihilation, both are quite good, and Paizo has already turned out two major rule books and half an adventure path in five month’s time. In my opinion Paizo’s production values are better (one particular crappy print run notwithstanding) in art, cohesion, layout, and reference aids, though.
> 
> As for the first point, I agree - size of team does not directly equate to quality, it comes down to team cohesion, strength of vision, and skill/talent of personnel. Wizards has regained their stride and recaptured the market, due in part to the quality of game that the Wizards team put together, but also due in part to people like Welch, Holkins & Krahulik, and Mercer’s Critical Role crew,  and the whole RPG market has benefitted from it.




I don't disagree with anything you've written.  However, I'll share a bit about me so you've got full meaning of the post of mine you've quoted.

"Production value" can mean different things, so I'll drill down a bit.  There's content, and there's design.  I'm big on anything that directly impacts gameplay and I'm not big on anything that's fluff.  So unless "design" gets me a good map to play on or handouts that can create immersion etc, I'd rather pay for content and not bother with art.

My point on quality in my post was meant to reference content.  I can definitely appreciate where you're coming from though.

Be well
KB


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## Sacrosanct (Jan 21, 2018)

Azzy said:


> Thank you for a reprehensible post.




Today there are women marching and protesting on the streets. Posts like that are why these marches are still needed. I can’t imagine just how frustrated Kate has to be to constantly have people question her qualifications because she’s a woman, or because she’s beautiful. It would drive me to road rage levels myself if I had to deal with that. 

And regarding the posts about her experience. There’s a lot of speculation going on by people who have never been part of a design team (in any co text, not just rpgs). I am a systems analyst for my day job, and I’ve also happened to designed several games. 

I’m telling you, in no uncertain terms, that skill sets and processes from designing a software enhancement are transferable to designing RPGs. You identify the project. You identify the scope. You gather requirements. You build test cases and wire frames. The developers do mock ups. The testers write scripts for as many possible scenarios as they can test. Then they test them. Defects or processes not working as the client intends are sent back the devs. Finally the project gets sign off and then implementation. 

Looking at her experience with GW2, I am 95% certain she has been involved in these types of processes. 

So can we stop second guessing her ability?  Especially if you’ve never done anything like this yourself?

I find it incredibly irritating. Armchair designers who love to complain about others often on processes they don’t understand while refusing to put their money where their mouth is.


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## gyor (Jan 21, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> Today there are women marching and protesting on the streets. Posts like that are why these marches are still needed. I can’t imagine just how frustrated Kate has to be to constantly have people question her qualifications because she’s a woman, or because she’s beautiful. It would drive me to road rage levels myself if I had to deal with that.
> 
> And regarding the posts about her experience. There’s a lot of speculation going on by people who have never been part of a design team (in any co text, not just rpgs). I am a systems analyst for my day job, and I’ve also happened to designed several games.
> 
> ...




 Here is the deal when you put woman or minorities right into your requirements list you automatically made her gender an issue,  that is NOT on any poster here,  it is on WotC for taking the sloppy lazy approach to diversity. 

 Look for the sake of honesty I'm MRA and antifeminist,  but I've voted for women,  supported women to be both Prime Minister and Premier in the province I live in,  am pre-choice,  and where the pink ribbon when I don't misplace it. And I like organic diversity. 

 While it looks bad that she doesn't fit the prerequisites as dictated by WotC,  something they could have made a preference and not a prequiste if it wasn't a deal breaker. 

 My critisms are for WotC,  not her at all,  she seems creative,  imaginative, and a bunch of wonderful other personality traits that certainly are assets. 

 My issue is how WotC approached this thing,  they brought this on themselves,  putting in a diversity requirement,  and then picking one who has no experience in TTRPGS design,  heck her CRPG experience is in UIs,  not story building,  after they made it clear that was an important requirement looks bad,  especially since it's far from unheard of for under qualified women to get jobs to boost artificial gender targets. It happened at Marvel Comics and it was a disaster (diversity and comics is great for more info on that) among admittedly many other choices. 

 And not liking this doesn't make make anyone sexist,  heck it's not even an attack on Kate Welsh,  it wasn't her call to make, and I'm absolutely giving her a chance to be awesome and wow me. 

 And honestly I think while her gender was an asset I think her relative fame via aquistions inc., and her connections at WotC. 

 And while her experience video game and web page design might utilities similar skills as TTRPG design,  it gives us real TTRPG writing to look at and say wow,  that's awesome or bad,  is an issue. 

 Again I have nothing against Kate Walsh and wish her the best, but how WotC went about this was rotten,  they brought this done upon themselves and yelling sexism at critics is a cope out. 

 And before you shout you're against women in the industry,  because SJWs are predictable that way,  some of my favourite game designers and D&D authors are women,  Erin M. Evans,  Rose Baily,  Meghan Fitzgerald,  , Elaine Cunningham,   and many others. This is one of the reasons qoutas are bad for the people it's suppose to help,  it leaves this question mark over their careers,  did this person earn it or was it given to them in the same of diversity (which damages the idea of diversity because it gets associated with poor quality stuff,  which is really unfortunate). It also sets people up for the glass cliff. 

 Now Kate seems to have a really strong passion for D&D and a positive attitude, and she likes FR,  so again I'm very hopeful until proven otherwise.

 PS the marches are silly,  women have massive advantages over men in most societies,  legal,  instinctual,  cultural, from divorce courts sexism against men,  women get less pension time for the exact same crime, women are less likely to die of suicide,  die in the work place,  less likely to be homeless,  in some states men are excluded from the protection of laws against rape, and all a woman needs to do to destroy a man's career is make an accusation over twitter. Oh and in most countries with a draft women don't get drafted,  aka forced military slavery. There are no government funded Domestic Violence shelters for me in most places,  but tons for female victims of domestic,  even the at the lowest men make up 33% of domestic violence victims. Seriously watch the red pill documentary,  you can find it on YouTube (for a cost), Google Play, and Hulu.


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## Sacrosanct (Jan 21, 2018)

Well, clearly you didn’t bother reading my post you quoted. How do you know she didn’t meet the qualifications?  Do you have some special insight into what she did in her previous jobs?  Are you a business process analyst?  Game designer?  

I’m telling you, her work in GW2 means she was involved in the design process and is experienced in methodologies of project management and design.   The very fact she is being questioned when we typically don’t do this to men is rotten.


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## Guest 6801328 (Jan 21, 2018)

I've been wildly underqualified, on paper, for most jobs I've had.  Talk my way into it in the interviews.  Or get talked into it, sometimes.  Such as currently.  :-/

The rampant sexism in this thread has been really discouraging.  Even some of the supportive posts are dripping with paternalism, virtual pats-on-the-head, "I'm sure you'll do fine, honey."  As if anybody's approval is wanted/needed/relevant.  

I'm sure a lot of really great, qualified people applied (and legions of completely unqualified people) and she outshone all of them.  She must have rocked the interview.  Can't wait to see what she produces.


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## hawkeyefan (Jan 21, 2018)

Hahah gotta love when you check back on a thread and you see it’s taken a detour to crazy town.


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## Sacrosanct (Jan 21, 2018)

hawkeyefan said:


> Hahah gotta love when you check back on a thread and you see it’s taken a detour to crazy town.




Attractive woman gets hired in male dominated hobby?  Sadly it was inevitable. I have to admit I actually had high hopes when the thread started, but....people gonna be people I guess. 

We’ve definelty improved as a nerd culture in the past 30 years, but obviously have a long way to go yet.  I only hope that projects she’s influenced are judged fairly, but I fear some will be unable to get past biases, on both directions. 

But I’m confident  that will be the minority.  New designers mean new ideas, and I’m anxious to see what she brings to the table.  And I hope she enjoys her work and it is long lasting. Personally, for me it’s as basic as more designers mean more D&D stuff, and that’s a good thing.


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## 3catcircus (Jan 21, 2018)

hawkeyefan said:


> Hahah gotta love when you check back on a thread and you see it’s taken a detour to crazy town.




What amazes me is the insinuation that she would be unable to lead a team in making products that support a powergamer style of play (or the opposite insinuation that now everything put out by her team is going to be LARP levels of roleplaying in nature).  People need to stop focusing on/worrying about her because she is a she, or because she is part of a livestreamed D&D game, or that she has experience as an artist and UI/UX designer.  Who cares - what matters is what criteria WotC used to assess all of the job applicants to determine she was the best fit and whether or not that assessment results in quality products. 

I'll repeat what I said earlier - I don't care about her being a female or her background, politics, lifestyle, etc.  I'd look at the same criteria if they hired a straight white male from Indiana or a (insert pronoun of choice) person from Pakistan - can the person WotC hired do the job they hired that person to do?  If she can get the job done and D&D continues to have quality products, then WotC made the right choice to fill the position.  If she can't get it done, she'll be no different than any other employee who can't get the job done and she'll be let go.  Hopefully she enjoys the job and WotC publishes great products she designed - for as long as it lasts since, given WotC's track record, *anyone* hired into *any* position will be let go at some point sooner rather than later.


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## Guest 6801328 (Jan 21, 2018)

gyor said:


> Here is the deal when you put woman or minorities right into your requirements list you automatically made her gender an issue,  that is NOT on any poster here,  it is on WotC for taking the sloppy lazy approach to diversity.
> 
> Look for the sake of honesty I'm MRA and antifeminist,  but I've voted for women,  supported women to be both Prime Minister and Premier in the province I live in,  am pre-choice,  and where the pink ribbon when I don't misplace it. And I like organic diversity.
> 
> ...




I always conclude those sort of sentiments come from guys are just losers, and blame their disappointments on women because it's less painful than acknowledging their own pathetic failings.

Not meaning _you_, of course, just in general.


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## WayOfTheFourElements (Jan 21, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> I always conclude those sort of sentiments come from guys are just losers, and blame their disappointments on women because it's less painful than acknowledging their own pathetic failings.
> 
> Not meaning _you_, of course, just in general.




Less that and more having grown up being told by family, public education, and society that because you are a white man, you are worthless, disposable, and guilty of crimes committed by generations past. It was only after I stopped actively campaigning for 3rd-wave feminist (and similarly framed minority) causes and saw the ugly truth for what I had once been supporting that I was able to stand on my own two feet.

The feminist mindset does strange things for society and for individuals, like having parents who pay for your sisters university because she's a women, while you are expected to get a job and take loans because men are already at an advantage and should be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

It also leads to situations like my 62 year old father, now unemployed for 2 years, having to pay $6,000 in alimony based his salary from a job he once held that no longer exists, and the judge consistently ruling that his inability to find a job able to cover the alimony is due to his own laziness and moral failing, while have documented proof of applying for over 500 jobs in over 30 countries, with numerous interview. He can no longer get a job in Silicon Valley because of his age, but can no longer get a job at Costco because of his previous salary. In four months, his savings will have run out and he will be living in the street.

Yes. There are gender issues still alive in the world. I now live in the middle east, working to promote the rights of women and minority groups in countries where the ideals of feminism are truly necessary.


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## Ancalagon (Jan 21, 2018)

Henry said:


> I’ll have to disagree on that second point - reference the production values and design of of something like Starfinder .




erm... Starfinder has a number of numerical issues that really should have been caught (DC for skill check on board ships scaling faster than PC's skills could, for example), and it a bit of a meh game.   I'm not sure that's the horse I would ride on.


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## ad_hoc (Jan 21, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> Attractive woman gets hired in male dominated hobby?  Sadly it was inevitable. I have to admit I actually had high hopes when the thread started, but....people gonna be people I guess.
> 
> We’ve definelty improved as a nerd culture in the past 30 years, but obviously have a long way to go yet.  I only hope that projects she’s influenced are judged fairly, but I fear some will be unable to get past biases, on both directions.
> 
> But I’m confident  that will be the minority.  New designers mean new ideas, and I’m anxious to see what she brings to the table.  And I hope she enjoys her work and it is long lasting. Personally, for me it’s as basic as more designers mean more D&D stuff, and that’s a good thing.




Yes, it is important to remember that while this site is better than most, it's still the internet.

I think the popularity of 5e is evidence that we have come a long way. 5e hasn't just grabbed the RPG market, it has expanded it past the borders of the hobby game nerd culture.

One thing I see on this board and others is the notion that WotC is making this game for the individual posters here. They're not. They're making it for the millions of players out there. In this very thread I was engaged in a long discussion about how the game should cater to powergamers. That isn't a goal of 5e and never will be.

It's also not only for men. I brought home the 5e PHB from Gen Con in 2014 and we got to making characters. The first thing one of the women at our table said was that she loved the art direction. It wasn't just that it lacked scantily clad women with their butts sticking out, though that helped I'm sure, but that it included awesome looking women who inspired her to make awesome characters (though let's all try to forget that abomination of a halfling...)

The game isn't just for men anymore.


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## Corpsetaker (Jan 21, 2018)

Who cares if she's a woman, a man, both, or neither? I'm just worried about WoTc hiring someone with no gaming experience to help design the game. Sounds like this could be one of those "hiring the friend of a friend" kind of thing, no company is beyond that.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jan 21, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> Attractive woman gets hired in male dominated hobby?  Sadly it was inevitable. I have to admit I actually had high hopes when the thread started, but....people gonna be people I guess.




Sadly, as long as humans have eyes, the more attractive women, and men, will have an advantage. It is how our brains and subconscious work. And as a side note to all this, and this has nothing to do with Kate's show since I have not watched it, in all the explosion of gaming streams and podcasts and twitch shows, etc, I personally have yet to see one where any of the women, either playing or DMing, are unattractive. Did all these attractive women suddenly decide to go public with their gaming? Or did some of them have no experience prior, but thought "hey, men are willing to watch me play this game and spend money on subscriptions" or whatever and are simply using their looks to make an income like so many women have throughout human history?  Sorry for the cynicism, but I am just human, after all.


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## SuperTD (Jan 21, 2018)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I personally have yet to see one where any of the women, either playing or DMing, are unattractive. Did all these attractive women suddenly decide to go public with their gaming? Or did some of them have no experience prior, but thought "hey, men are willing to watch me play this game and spend money on subscriptions" or whatever and are simply using their looks to make an income like so many women have throughout human history?




Well, why don't we take a look at some of the most popular show rather than speculating about the women's motives.

Critical Role - All of the players played in a private game for 2 years before it was ever streamed. 

Dice Camera Action - Both female players have played D&D for years.

High Rollers - This is a game run by the Yogscast - one of the female players was one of the biggest female streamers they had, played D&D a long time ago and was coming back to it. The other is the partner of another player, and has played D&D before.

Rollplay - There's a huge variety of shows and players on this channel. The main show I watched had a rotating cast of other streamers, was a mix of men and women and a lot of both sexes were new to D&D. Some came back if they enjoyed it, some didn't. The women on the other shows that had a consistent cast had usually played RPGs for years. This channel was also founded way before D&D streaming was popular, so their was little to gain from showing up with a pretty face and hoping to make some money.

I'm sure some women did decide to go public with gaming as it became popular. I know for sure that some were new to D&D, but to assume their motives were entirely based around money rather than "this sounds fun" is a little unfair. 

You're right in that the streams that are popular do tend to have attractive people (not just women, have you SEEN  Travis Willingham?! ) and also a mix of genders. But I think this is part of why they become popular - the games that you want to watch have a diverse cast rather than a bunch of dudes.


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## Guest 6801328 (Jan 21, 2018)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I personally have yet to see one where any of the women, either playing or DMing, are unattractive.




Maybe you just see the inner beauty in everyone.  Great quality to have.


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## Guest 6801328 (Jan 21, 2018)

Corpsetaker said:


> Who cares if she's a woman, a man, both, or neither? I'm just worried about WoTc hiring someone with no gaming experience to help design the game. Sounds like this could be one of those "hiring the friend of a friend" kind of thing, no company is beyond that.




In most industries it's considered a smart move to bring in somebody bright and creative from another field to inject some new thinking.

Would you want such a person making _all_ the decisions?  No.  But as a team member it (can) work great.

There's definitely something weird going on here.  I don't know if it's just sexism, or the people most disappointed with 5e wishing for somebody with a proven track record designing 3e/4e-like games.  Or just an assumption that MM & JC are going to make bad decisions.  The justifications offered for the scrutiny, criticism, and skepticism in this thread don't stand up.

EDIT: To be fair, the corollary is probably also true, that those of us who think 5e is a turn for the better are going to assume that Mearles & Co. are making good decisions for good reasons.


----------



## gyor (Jan 21, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> Well, clearly you didn’t bother reading my post you quoted. How do you know she didn’t meet the qualifications?  Do you have some special insight into what she did in her previous jobs?  Are you a business process analyst?  Game designer?
> 
> I’m telling you, her work in GW2 means she was involved in the design process and is experienced in methodologies of project management and design.   The very fact she is being questioned when we typically don’t do this to men is rotten.




 Or it could do with the fact that it was made into a big deal by her and WotC. If it would make you feel better we could compare the before resumes of the men working on the D&D design team? 

 Usually I they are far quieter about their hirers. 

 I'll also put out that when you make gender and race a requirement a company opens themselves up to this kind of scrutiny,  because people have had bad experiences with it in the past. 

 Mearls did Iron Heroes,  I remember that much,  I'll have to do some research for the rest.


----------



## gyor (Jan 21, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> I've been wildly underqualified, on paper, for most jobs I've had.  Talk my way into it in the interviews.  Or get talked into it, sometimes.  Such as currently.  :-/
> 
> The rampant sexism in this thread has been really discouraging.  Even some of the supportive posts are dripping with paternalism, virtual pats-on-the-head, "I'm sure you'll do fine, honey."  As if anybody's approval is wanted/needed/relevant.
> 
> I'm sure a lot of really great, qualified people applied (and legions of completely unqualified people) and she outshone all of them.  She must have rocked the interview.  Can't wait to see what she produces.




 Well yeah it kind of is needed,  because if the fans don't like someone on the D&D team they might not buy the product,  fan approval matters just ask Marvel who learned this the hard way.


----------



## Guest 6801328 (Jan 21, 2018)

gyor said:


> Well yeah it kind of is needed,  because if the fans don't like someone on the D&D team they might not buy the product,  fan approval matters just ask Marvel who learned this the hard way.




I disagree.  Fan approval of the content they sell (as measured by...sales) is needed but approval of their hires is not.  Anybody rabid enough to refuse to buy the content simply because they disapprove of the hires is not going to move the needle on sales.


----------



## hawkeyefan (Jan 21, 2018)

gyor said:


> Or it could do with the fact that it was made into a big deal by her and WotC. If it would make you feel better we could compare the before resumes of the men working on the D&D design team?
> 
> Usually I they are far quieter about their hirers.
> 
> ...




Where are you getting this “gender and race a requirement” thing? To my knowledge, the job posting said nothing about that. So are you privy to info the rest of us don’t have? Or are you just assuming that the only way a woman could have gotten the job is if some kind of diversity initiative was in place? 

Because that’s how you sound. Just pointing that out in case you didn’t realize. 

And I’m not sure how you could say that a big deal of this was made by Kate herself? All she did was share the news of being hired and her enthusiasm about it.

Clearly the people making the decision aren’t as concerned with tabletop RPG design specifically as a requirement so much as general game design experience, which Kate Welch clearly has. 

And finally, this was likely announced as news because a large portion of the gaming community is already familiar with Kate because of her involvement with the Acquisitions Inc. games. 

She’s not your grandma’s grandma.


----------



## Kobold Boots (Jan 21, 2018)

Meh - Yet another positive thread scarred by race, gender or politics.  

Look - As a hiring manager and having been around hiring managers, and based on hierarchy of needs you're always going to prefer the more attractive person for any role so long as qualifications are there.

1. No one wants to surround themselves with fugly.
2. Fugly implies a lack of care.  It's hard to be fugly if you're taking care of yourself properly.
3. If you're not taking care of yourself, why am I going to assume you're going to do your job properly?  Fact is you're looking for a job.  Why did you lose the last one?

End of day though, in order for me to keep my job, I need to have a person that's qualified enough to do a good job at whatever it is I'm hiring for.  Because I have a team, when I'm hiring for a role, true skill is only going to win out to hire fugly if I have no way to shuffle things and compensate for skills gap should an attractive person show up that's less qualified but workable.

Especially true considering less qualified but entirely workable means less cost.  

This isn't about male or female.  It's about common sense.  Kate's entirely qualified for the job.  Unfortunately most people aren't smart enough to figure the world out and improve themselves instead of bitching about their own faults behind the trendy argument of gender bias.

Be well
KB


----------



## gyor (Jan 21, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> I always conclude those sort of sentiments come from guys are just losers, and blame their disappointments on women because it's less painful than acknowledging their own pathetic failings.
> 
> Not meaning _you_, of course, just in general.




 That is a cheap why to brush aside people's concerns via an ad homiem attack without addressing their arguements. 

 I'll also point out I was unfailingly polite towards Kate Welsh,  I was only critical of the process,  which she was not in charge of. 

 My position has nothing to do with being a "winner" or "loser", nor is it opposition to having a woman on the team,  it is practical concerns with the process.


----------



## gyor (Jan 21, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> I disagree.  Fan approval of the content they sell (as measured by...sales) is needed but approval of their hires is not.  Anybody rabid enough to refuse to buy the content simply because they disapprove of the hires is not going to move the needle on sales.




 If they approve of the content,  they will like approve of the designer who made it,  or at least of their hiring.


----------



## Guest 6801328 (Jan 21, 2018)

gyor said:


> If they approve of the content,  they will like approve of the designer who made it,  or at least of their hiring.




Great!  So let's all wait until new content comes out before approving/disapproving of this hire.  Hmm?

And, even then, because she is working on a team let's not jump to conclusions about cause & effect.


----------



## gyor (Jan 21, 2018)

jessiuz said:


> I know Kate plays 5E, but has she ever DM'd 5th edition? UX/UI credits on a few video games doesn't really seem like relevant experience to me. I'm really scratching my head as to why Wizards would pick her for this position.
> 
> 
> Here is the job listing. Judge for yourself.
> ...




 "Affirmative Action Employer" is what I'm talking about,  if they'd stopped at equal opportunity employer that would be fine,  but Affirmative action is PC code for discrimination against white men (a behavior Google is currently being sued for).


----------



## hawkeyefan (Jan 21, 2018)

gyor said:


> "Affirmative Action Employer" is what I'm talking about,  if they'd stopped at equal opportunity employer that would be fine,  but Affirmative action is PC code for discrimination against white men (a behavior Google is currently being sued for).




Yes because clearly there’s a shortage of white men employed at Wizards.

That’s sarcasm. Your concerns are absurd.


----------



## gyor (Jan 21, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> Great!  So let's all wait until new content comes out before approving/disapproving of this hire.  Hmm?
> 
> And, even then, because she is working on a team let's not jump to conclusions about cause & effect.




 I have not judge Kate Walsh,  time will tell if she rocks or sucks,  I have no issue with the WotC hiring PROCESS,  and even that I wasn't really going to bother commenting on,  until I saw people being called sexist unfairly for reasonable concerns made me mad,  so I was drawn into it when it became political. 

 Again I have no issue with Kate Welsh. It's honestly more certain people in this thread who drew me into this debate that I was planning on not getting involved in beyond saying congrats Kate Welsh.


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## WayOfTheFourElements (Jan 21, 2018)

> *Physical Requirements:*
> 
> Office environment, able to work on computer or phone for long periods of time.
> We are an Equal Opportunity / Affirmative Action Employer.
> The above is intended to describe the general content of and the requirements for satisfactory performance in this position. It is not to be construed as an exhaustive statement of the duties, responsibilities, or requirements of the position.








gyor said:


> "Affirmative Action Employer" is what I'm talking about,  if they'd stopped at equal opportunity employer that would be fine,  but Affirmative action is PC code for discrimination against white men (a behavior Google is currently being sued for).




I love how "Affirmative Action Employer" was placed under the "Physical Requirements" heading, too.


----------



## gyor (Jan 21, 2018)

hawkeyefan said:


> Yes because clearly there’s a shortage of white men employed at Wizards.
> 
> That’s sarcasm. Your concerns are absurd.




 I'm aware of that,  but I didn't put in the Affirmative Action part in there,  they did.


----------



## WayOfTheFourElements (Jan 21, 2018)

hawkeyefan said:


> Yes because clearly there’s a shortage of white men employed at Wizards.
> 
> That’s sarcasm. Your concerns are absurd.




Saying that there are enough white people or men at a company is equally sexist as way that their aren't enough blacks or woman working there.

Age, race, gender, religion, etc. should not be considered one way or another when hiring for any position not based on physical appearance (Harry Potter probably shouldn't be played by a ninety year old Asian women, for example, nor should Cho Chang be played by a three-month-old white, male baby). Anything less is discrimination.


----------



## gyor (Jan 21, 2018)

WayOfTheFourElements said:


> Saying that there are enough white people or men at a company is equally sexist as way that their aren't enough blacks or woman working there.
> 
> Age, race, gender, religion, etc. should not be considered one way or another when hiring for any position not based on physical appearance (Harry Potter probably shouldn't be played by a ninety year old Asian women, for example, nor should Cho Chang be played by a three-month-old white, male baby). Anything less is discrimination.




 Exactly.


----------



## Corpsetaker (Jan 21, 2018)

Why does it all matter anyway? We probably won't even notice a difference in the products that come out. She will probably just end up being another Shelly Mezz.


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 21, 2018)

Corpsetaker said:


> Why does it all matter anyway? We probably won't even notice a difference in the products that come out. She will probably just end up being another Shelly Mezz.



What does that even mean? Why would a marketing team member and a design team member be comparable in their effect on product?

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app


----------



## Corpsetaker (Jan 21, 2018)

[MENTION=6780330]Parmandur[/MENTION]

You do realize the laugh button doesn't work in that way anymore. You look silly trying to "laugh with" a post that the original author wasn't laughing to begin with. You are giving me XP and making yourself look silly.


----------



## Corpsetaker (Jan 21, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> What does that even mean? Why would a marketing team member and a design team member be comparable in their effect on product?
> 
> Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app




If you have to ask then it's not worth trying to explain.


----------



## SkidAce (Jan 21, 2018)

Sorcerers Apprentice said:


> Wrong again!  They do of course make choices, but every choice is is grounded in tactical or metagame concerns, no decision is character driven. You might as well call playing Monopoly to be roleplaying.




...guilty...

(we have rp'd monopoly, i was the ruthless businessman, defeated by the green movement developers.)


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 21, 2018)

Corpsetaker said:


> If you have to ask then it's not worth trying to explain.



Well, the only link I can see is they both happen to be women? Their roles in the company, and their job experience, seem quite different.

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app


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## Parmandur (Jan 21, 2018)

Corpsetaker said:


> [MENTION=6780330]Parmandur[/MENTION]
> 
> You do realize the laugh button doesn't work in that way anymore. You look silly trying to "laugh with" a post that the original author wasn't laughing to begin with. You are giving me XP and making yourself look silly.



I am a very silly man, so this seems appropriate.

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app


----------



## gyor (Jan 21, 2018)

Corpsetaker said:


> Why does it all matter anyway? We probably won't even notice a difference in the products that come out. She will probably just end up being another Shelly Mezz.




 I like Shelly,  she amuses me, but she's not a designer,  she's a marketer, not really comparable jobs.


----------



## gyor (Jan 21, 2018)

SkidAce said:


> ...guilty...
> 
> (we have rp'd monopoly, i was the ruthless businessman, defeated by the green movement developers.)




 Okay now that is the best way to play monopoly,  that should awesome.


----------



## Corpsetaker (Jan 21, 2018)

gyor said:


> I like Shelly,  she amuses me, but she's not a designer,  she's a marketer, not really comparable jobs.




The jobs don't have to be comparable. What's comparable is the fact that if you let Shelly go tomorrow nobody outside the company would know any better. That's how much of an impact on the business she would be. I get the feeling this person would be the same way.


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## gyor (Jan 21, 2018)

Corpsetaker said:


> The jobs don't have to be comparable. What's comparable is the fact that if you let Shelly go tomorrow nobody outside the company would know any better. That's how much of an impact on the business she would be. I get the feeling this person would be the same way.




 I think those of us who listen to dragon talk would notice,  and honestly I have no clue what impact she has on day to day operations at WotC to be honest,  I don't remember seeing any D&D advertising campaigns to be honest. 

 Do you know in more detail what she does?  Kind of curious.

 As for Kate Welsh if she's being Iead designer on specific books,  then yeah you'll notice the effect if she gets the book.


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 21, 2018)

Corpsetaker said:


> The jobs don't have to be comparable. What's comparable is the fact that if you let Shelly go tomorrow nobody outside the company would know any better. That's how much of an impact on the business she would be. I get the feeling this person would be the same way.



On what basis do you claim the latter? I mean, she hasn't started work yet, so if she decided to decline the job, we wouldn't see a difference in the product line right now, but once she gets going, her impact is likely going to be noticable.

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app


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## hawkeyefan (Jan 21, 2018)

WayOfTheFourElements said:


> Saying that there are enough white people or men at a company is equally sexist as way that their aren't enough blacks or woman working there.
> 
> Age, race, gender, religion, etc. should not be considered one way or another when hiring for any position not based on physical appearance (Harry Potter probably shouldn't be played by a ninety year old Asian women, for example, nor should Cho Chang be played by a three-month-old white, male baby). Anything less is discrimination.




If someone says that they’re worried about the hiring practices at a company being descriminatory toward white men, then I don’t think pointing toward the high number of white men that work there is at all discriminatory. It’s looking at the evidence for or against the concern. 

We could discuss equal opportunity employment and affirmative action and employment demographics versus population demographics, but I don’t think we’d get anywhere....so I’ll just reiterate that as someone familiar with Kate, I’m excited for what she’ll bring.


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 21, 2018)

gyor said:


> I think those of us who listen to dragon talk would notice,  and honestly I have no clue what impact she has on day to day operations at WotC to be honest,  I don't remember seeing any D&D advertising campaigns to be honest.
> 
> Do you know in more detail what she does?  Kind of curious.
> 
> As for Kate Welsh if she's being Iead designer on specific books,  then yeah you'll notice the effect if she gets the book.



She isn't on the D&D team anymore, actually. She still does the podcast, but works in Avalon Hill now: she appears to be partly responsible for "crossing the streams" and getting the "Betrayal in Baldurs Gate" board game made. 

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app


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## Guest 6801328 (Jan 21, 2018)

This whole "women are taking jobs away from more qualified men" is such a load of horse#$%@.  Yes, there are examples of diversity trumping qualifications, especially in government jobs where the diversity is mandated.  But there are also (lots of) examples of white men getting jobs/promotions because they are...white men.

Basically if you're a white man and can't get a job it's because you suck.  White men (of which I qualify, in spades) are just incredibly entitled, and any threat to that entitlement is interpreted as discrimination.  It's hard to give up undeserved privilege.  Lord knows I savor mine.


----------



## WayOfTheFourElements (Jan 21, 2018)

hawkeyefan said:


> If someone says that they’re worried about the hiring practices at a company being descriminatory toward white men, then I don’t think pointing toward the high number of white men that work there is at all discriminatory. It’s looking at the evidence for or against the concern.
> 
> We could discuss equal opportunity employment and affirmative action and employment demographics versus population demographics, but I don’t think we’d get anywhere....so I’ll just reiterate that as someone familiar with Kate, I’m excited for what she’ll bring.




Which emphasizes one of the key issues with affirmative action; you can _never know_ if a woman or minority actually got the job because s/he was the best candidate or because of some misguided attempt to minimize cosmic justice or social trends (or the possibility of true sexism). De-level the playing field and suddenly everyone starts pointing fingers at each other.

It doesn't even matter if Ms. Melch were hired because of a prevailing attitude in favor of affirmative action or not. The mere presence of the possibility is what is causing all the unrest seen on these forums. From what I've seen no one here is expressing actual sexist views. They're criticizing the policy, not the human.


----------



## gyor (Jan 21, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> This whole "women are taking jobs away from more qualified men" is such a load of horse#$%@.  Yes, there are examples of diversity trumping qualifications, especially in government jobs where the diversity is mandated.  But there are also (lots of) examples of white men getting jobs/promotions because they are...white men.
> 
> Basically if you're a white man and can't get a job it's because you suck.  White men (of which I qualify, in spades) are just incredibly entitled, and any threat to that entitlement is interpreted as discrimination.  It's hard to give up undeserved privilege.  Lord knows I savor mine.




 First off my job is not at risk being taken by a woman,  ever,  if one wants they can have it,  they don't. 

 Secondly there are tons of white men in abject poverty,  so HOW DARE YOU CALL THEM PRIVELEDGED BASED ON THE COLOUR OF THEIR SKIN AND GENDER, you feel priveledged so all white men MUST be priveledged,  secondly there are men who have been told right to their face that they would never be able to climb any higher in their industry because they we're white and male and there for not what companies are looking for. 

 And you might enjoy yourself hating hate man schtick,  but it's wearing thin on the rest of us. 

 Is the war vet with no legs priveledged?  Is the homeless man on the streets priveldged,  is the poor man living in a trailer his whole life who gets called white trash by guys like you priveledged, is the guy living in his car because his wife took everything privileged? It's easy to call other white guys priveledged,  because you have absolutely no idea what millions of other white men are going through,  because you never thought to ask,  you sere told white men are priveledged,  and YOU NEVER QUESTIONED IT,  you thought to ask why are white male suicides increasing,  why are men in general falling behind in education and millions struggling. You have neither sympathy or understanding for say Rust Belt workers who lost jobs thanks to automation and trade treaty designed for the rich,  who struggle to keep their families fed and clothed,  sacrificing daily,  while watching their marriages suffer under the strain. There are white men who get sexually assaulted who call help lines only to be accused of being a rapist by the person on the other end. Are all the men who lost their jobs based on unproven #Metoo allegations that circumvent due process orividled. Are the fathers who are dying on the inside because they never get to see their children,  which being squeezed for every red cent they make by ex wives priveledged? 

 Your ignorance is profound and utter. 

 And getting a job just because you white and male is just as wrong,  I equally condemn such deplorable behavior. I believe and racial and gender equality,  something my follow lefties used to believe in too before the curse of intersectional feminism.


----------



## gyor (Jan 21, 2018)

WayOfTheFourElements said:


> Which emphasizes one of the key issues with affirmative action; you can _never know_ if a woman or minority actually got the job because s/he was the best candidate or because of some misguided attempt to minimize cosmic justice or social trends (or the possibility of true sexism). De-level the playing field and suddenly everyone starts pointing fingers at each other.
> 
> It doesn't even matter if Ms. Melch were hired because of a prevailing attitude in favor of affirmative action or not. The mere presence of the possibility is what is causing all the unrest seen on these forums. From what I've seen no one here is expressing actual sexist views. They're criticizing the policy, not the human.




 Exactly I have no beef with Kate Welsh,  none,  I honestly wish her the best and I hope she is awesome. Hell I have a feeling she might be an improvement over whoever thought pages and pages of names in the back of XGTE was an actual good idea.


----------



## WayOfTheFourElements (Jan 21, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> This whole "women are taking jobs away from more qualified men" is such a load of horse#$%@.  Yes, there are examples of diversity trumping qualifications, especially in government jobs where the diversity is mandated.  But there are also (lots of) examples of white men getting jobs/promotions because they are...white men.




Basing hiring decisions on age, race, nationality, sex, religion, attractiveness etc. is a horrendous practice, which should be stamped out. Agreed. We only differ the methods of doing so.



Elfcrusher said:


> Basically if you're a white man and can't get a job it's because you suck.  White men (of which I qualify, in spades) are just incredibly entitled, and any threat to that entitlement is interpreted as discrimination.  It's hard to give up undeserved privilege.  Lord knows I savor mine.




If someone (legally qualified to work there) in the US cannot get a job, it's because they suck. Man, woman, bi sexual, Muslim, Buddhist, black, Latino, whatever. Doesn't matter. And if not, you can always drive snow mobiles in Antarctica. But calling a calling a white guy who grew up in a mining town trailer park more privileged than Malia Obama because of the color of their skin is total BS.

Yes, in some places skin color might mean something, but one parents' social-economic status means a h*** of a lot more.


----------



## Morrus (Jan 21, 2018)

gyor said:


> Secondly there are tons of white men in abject poverty,  so HOW DARE YOU CALL THEM PRIVELEDGED BASED ON THE COLOUR OF THEIR SKIN AND GENDER




You fundamentally misunderstand what "privilege" means in this context. It has absolutely nothing to do with an individual's circumstances or where they grew up. You need to understand what a word means before you start shouting at people for using it, and it doesn't mean what you think it means.

And also, calm down, please.


----------



## Guest 6801328 (Jan 21, 2018)

gyor said:


> Secondly there are tons of white men in abject poverty,  so HOW DARE YOU CALL THEM PRIVELEDGED BASED ON THE COLOUR OF THEIR SKIN AND GENDER,




Oh, please.  Enough of the false outrage.  For every white man living in abject poverty there are far more non-white men living in abject poverty.   Why?  Because even the least educated, stupidest, laziest white man has privilege over a non-white man or woman with the same profile.
 EDIT: What Morrus said.



> secondly there are men who have been told right to their face that they would never be able to climb any higher in their industry because they we're white and male and there for not what companies are looking for.




Sucks for them. And for each one of those rare examples there are orders of magnitude more examples of women/minorities suffering the same thing, although not being told as much to their face.

This whole "woe is me, poor white man" thing is just pathetic.


----------



## WayOfTheFourElements (Jan 21, 2018)

Morrus said:


> You fundamentally misunderstand what "privilege" means in this context. It has absolutely nothing to do with an individual's circumstances or where they grew up. You need to understand what a word means before you start shouting at people for using it, and it doesn't mean what you think it means.
> 
> And also, calm down, please.




Looked it up.

*Privilege:* "a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group."

I could argue that the term _does_ apply to individuals, but I won't. That would be too easy. Instead, please explain what special right, advantage, or immunity is only available to white males that does not take an individual's circumstances into account.


----------



## Guest 6801328 (Jan 21, 2018)

gyor said:


> Are all the men who lost their jobs based on unproven #Metoo allegations that circumvent due process orividled.




Oh, yeah, no denying that has gotten completely out of control.  And I'm sure you love being able to use that as evidence that white men are discriminated against in general.  But that's about as logically sounds as pointing to the recent cold snap in the northeast (United States) and saying, "See?  No global warming!"  (Hmmm...some of our politicians did exactly that, didn't they?)



> Your ignorance is profound and utter.




Dunning-Kruger.


----------



## gyor (Jan 21, 2018)

Morrus said:


> You fundamentally misunderstand what "privilege" means in this context. It has absolutely nothing to do with an individual's circumstances or where they grew up. You need to understand what a word means before you start shouting at people for using it, and it doesn't mean what you think it means.
> 
> And also, calm down, please.




 I apologize for getting so frustrated,  and I'm familiar with what it's said to mean,  like being less likely to get the snot beaten out of you by cops,  and how it is used in practice and there is a really be difference. 

 Look I've made my points,  I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall uselessly at this point,  so I'll just congratulate Kate Welsh,  wish her the best,  hope she can get them to do a proper FRCG (or something similar) and bow out of this thread before I say something I regret.


----------



## WayOfTheFourElements (Jan 21, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> Oh, please.  Enough of the false outrage.  For every white man living in abject poverty there are far more non-white men living in abject poverty.   Why?  Because even the least educated, stupidest, laziest white man has privilege over a non-white man or woman with the same profile.
> EDIT: What Morrus said.
> 
> Sucks for them. And for each one of those rare examples there are orders of magnitude more examples of women/minorities suffering the same thing, although not being told as much to their face.
> ...




I think you're trying to put words in [MENTION=6670153]gyor[/MENTION]'s mouth and interpret his argument in the worst way possible.

He is at least acknowledging you're debating in good (though misguided) faith. It might help to try and see your discussion partner's side from a perspective that doesn't axiomatically define his position as incorrect/evil.


----------



## Guest 6801328 (Jan 21, 2018)

WayOfTheFourElements said:


> Looked it up.
> 
> *Privilege:* "a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group."
> 
> I could argue that the term _does_ apply to individuals, but I won't. That would be too easy. Instead, please explain what special right, advantage, or immunity is only available to white males that does not take an individual's circumstances into account.




It's not codified, legal privilege.  (Maybe that's what you've been misunderstanding?)  It's that a white man, when compared to a woman or minority of otherwise identical appearance, background, etc., will in general be assumed to be more competent, smarter, less dangerous, more honest, harder-working, etc.  Demonstrated repeatedly in countless studies.

That's their privilege.  An undeserved assumption of superiority.  It's measurable.


----------



## redrick (Jan 21, 2018)

Bigotry and discrimination under the guise of polite discourse is still bigotry and discrimination.

Claiming to "have nothing wrong" with an individual, while simultaneously dismissing them based entirely on their gender is disgusting. I don't dismiss anybody for being a white man. I dismiss them for making misogynist statements, and I'm not going to pretend that "I have nothing wrong" with them.

Enjoying the benefit of decades of official, legal discrimination against women and people of color, not to mention unofficial discrimination that persists to this day, and then turning around and claiming foul the moment the game isn't specifically rigged in your benefit is pretty weak, and it's because of that attitude, among others, that we are still having to fight so hard to undo the longstanding discrimination in our world.

I know I'm not gonna change any minds with the above. I am heartened that, overall, this community seems to be one that cherishes diversity and equality and is interested in moving forward.


----------



## Guest 6801328 (Jan 21, 2018)

WayOfTheFourElements said:


> I think you're trying to put words in @_*gyor*_'s mouth and interpret his argument in the worst way possible.
> 
> He is at least acknowledging you're debating in good (though misguided) faith. It might help to try and see your discussion partner's side from a perspective that doesn't axiomatically define his position as incorrect/evil.




Yes, it would appear that he had genuine, not false, outrage born of a misunderstanding of what privilege means in this context.


----------



## Guest 6801328 (Jan 21, 2018)

You know, I get enough of this sick feeling in my stomach reading the news these days.  I'm not going to persuade anybody here, so I'm going to bow out.  Peace.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Jan 21, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> This whole "women are taking jobs away from more qualified men" is such a load of horse#$%@.  Yes, there are examples of diversity trumping qualifications, especially in government jobs where the diversity is mandated.  But there are also (lots of) examples of white men getting jobs/promotions because they are...white men.
> 
> Basically if you're a white man and can't get a job it's because you suck.  White men (of which I qualify, in spades) are just incredibly entitled, and any threat to that entitlement is interpreted as discrimination.  It's hard to give up undeserved privilege.  Lord knows I savor mine.




This is true.  I'll also note that Affirmative action doesn't mean you give the job to a less skilled minority over a white person.  It's if every other qualification is the same, you go with the candidate that brings your workforce to represent the demographic of your area.  It doesn't mean hire all minorities. I've probably interviewed thousands of people and hired hundreds for a large corporation that has an Affirmative Action policy.  Assumptions and accusations made in this thread are complete nonsense.  And the level of entitlement going on in this thread is quite frankly, sickening, as I'll explain:



gyor said:


> First off my job is not at risk being taken by a woman,  ever,  if one wants they can have it,  they don't.
> 
> Secondly there are tons of white men in abject poverty,  so HOW DARE YOU CALL THEM PRIVELEDGED BASED ON THE COLOUR OF THEIR SKIN AND GENDER,  secondly there are men who have been told right to their face that they would never be able to climb any higher in their industry because they we're white and male and there for not what companies are looking for.
> 
> ...




You clearly have no idea what privilege is, if you think it's limited to just that.  Just in this thread, the very act of questioning the hire based on her sex (or someone being a minority) when no one does that for white men *IS *privilege.

Secondly, just because white men are in poverty does not mean white men don't gain the benefits of privilage.  I've actually given presentations in corporate meets about what privilege, so I know what I'm talking about.  But i don't blame you, because I had no idea just how much privilege I had as a white man in this country until I lived overseas where I was one of the only white people around.  Then it really hit home.

Thirdly, you think it's outrageous that someone would dare tell a man they couldn't rise higher because it's so rare of that happening so it stands out (give me a couple examples, by the way).  But that happens _every day_ to minorities.  To put it in D&D terms, you sound like those 4e fans who complained they were being treated unfairly and forsaken by WoTC when 5e came out, and fans of every edition prior just rolled their eyes because they all had been through it themselves when their edition got shelved.

Fourthly, privilege is a lot of things, including but not limited to:

*you are assured that when you find a gaming group, there will be several people part of that group like you (same gender and ethnicity)
* every time you turn on the TV, or open a newspaper, you are assured someone like you is on the front cover or plays the major role in the show
* minorities convicted of the same offenses (from traffic tickets to murder) as a white person suffer much harsher penalties than white people do.  This is a a fact.
* you are assured that you can enter pretty much any town in America and find a church of your faith (for those who are religious)
* You have never done something right and immediately had someone say you're a credit to your race/gender
* no one questions a promotion you may have gotten
* you've never had people stare at you or follow you around because they think you're gonna steal something
* you've never had people cross the street just to avoid you on a daily basis
* you're probably able to walk down a busy street without people harassing you on a daily basis

The list goes on and on.  Just open your eyes.  If you want a _huge _example of white privilege, it's why Obama had to be perfect or people lost their minds in outrage (one of his biggest scandals was saluting with a coffee cup for Christ's sake), but Trump, as a white man, has been able to do all of these outrageous things and yet the _same _people who lambasted Obama are all "eh, no big deal, nothing to see here."  That's not just a republican vs democrat thing, that's a black vs white thing.  Every woman and every minority who has had to work harder _because _of their race or gender knows exactly what I'm talking about because they do it every day.

Look man, I grew up poor white trash in poverty.  But  you know what?  All it takes is for me to have one nice set of clothes and carry myself professionally and no one knew my background and I got to enjoy all the great benefits of being a white guy.  Women and minorities don't have to ability to put on a suit and have people forget they are a woman or a minority.  And if you think widespread discrimination doesn't exist to this day, you must be living under a rock.

Ugh.  This entitlement literally makes me sick.


----------



## Corpsetaker (Jan 21, 2018)

WayOfTheFourElements said:


> Basing hiring decisions on age, race, nationality, sex, religion, attractiveness etc. is a horrendous practice, which should be stamped out. Agreed. We only differ the methods of doing so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Actually basing hiring on any of those is illegal.


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## WayOfTheFourElements (Jan 21, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> It's not codified, legal privilege.  (Maybe that's what you've been misunderstanding?)  It's that a white man, when compared to a woman or minority of otherwise identical appearance, background, etc., will in general be assumed to be more competent, smarter, less dangerous, more honest, harder-working, etc.  Demonstrated repeatedly in countless studies.
> 
> That's their privilege.  An undeserved assumption of superiority.  It's measurable.




Which should be combated and specific acts and instances of sexism should always be dealt with accordingly on a case by case basis. Systemically favoring women and minorities in specific circumstances, however, does not create equality, it only creates a greater degree of inequality and further resentment.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Jan 21, 2018)

And one other thing, as someone with a lot of experience in hiring and managing people.  It is a proven undeniable fact that a diverse workforce is significantly more efficient and effective than a homogeneous one.  Pretty much every experienced manager knows this, because the data has been out a long time.  So a manager who hires a minority isn't necessarily being driven by reverse racism motivations, but is making the hire based on what will make the team the best, objectively.


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## bedir than (Jan 21, 2018)

To quote a wise man "the diverse group is the strong group."

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app


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## Sacrosanct (Jan 21, 2018)

WayOfTheFourElements said:


> Looked it up.
> 
> *Privilege:* "a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group."
> 
> I could argue that the term _does_ apply to individuals, but I won't. That would be too easy. Instead, please explain what special right, advantage, or immunity is only available to white males that does not take an individual's circumstances into account.




I was typing my post as you replied, but I directly addressed this with some example.


----------



## ad_hoc (Jan 21, 2018)

hawkeyefan said:


> If someone says that they’re worried about the hiring practices at a company being descriminatory toward white men, then I don’t think pointing toward the high number of white men that work there is at all discriminatory. It’s looking at the evidence for or against the concern.
> 
> We could discuss equal opportunity employment and affirmative action and employment demographics versus population demographics, but I don’t think we’d get anywhere....so I’ll just reiterate that as someone familiar with Kate, I’m excited for what she’ll bring.




It's also impossible to be sexist or racist towards white men in a white dominated patriarchal society.

White men have all the advantages from the start.


----------



## Mistwell (Jan 21, 2018)

Corpsetaker said:


> Looks like WoTc are just following their trend of employing those without experience. Reminds me of the whole N-Space, Sword Coast Legends fiasco. They hired a company that is mainly associated with mobile phone games to create a PC game.




They should hire you for HR....for consistency sake.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Jan 21, 2018)

ad_hoc said:


> It's also impossible to be sexist or racist towards white men in a white dominated patriarchal society.
> .




This is also flat out untrue.  Sexism and racism is a belief.  Anyone can hold those beliefs against anyone else.  And anyone can be a victim.  It's important to understand the privilege white males have in our society, but it's counter productive to say that it's impossible to be sexist or racist towards white men.  That's a statement just as ignorant as to say that white privilege isn't a thing.


----------



## BMaC (Jan 21, 2018)

In the old days, neckbeards designed products for other neckbeards.  This is no longer the case with 5e.  No matter how progressive and empathetic an all white, male staff may be, increasing your market beyond white males is easier if the product is not designed solely by white males.  This is hard-nosed capitalism in action not affirmative action.


----------



## WayOfTheFourElements (Jan 21, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> You clearly have no idea what privilege is, if you think it's limited to just that.  Just in this thread, the very act of questioning the hire based on her sex (or someone being a minority) when no one does that for white men *IS *privilege.




I'm not questioning the hire because she's a women. I'm question it based on the words "Affirmative Action" being present in the Physical Requirements section of the job description.



Sacrosanct said:


> Secondly, just because white men are in poverty does not mean white men don't gain the benefits of privilage.  I've actually given presentations in corporate meets about what privilege, so I know what I'm talking about.  But i don't blame you, because I had no idea just how much privilege I had as a white man in this country until I lived overseas where I was one of the only white people around.  Then it really hit home.




I also work over seas. In order to receive UN and EU grants, me must employ a certain ratio of males/females and whites/"at risk" ethnicities (which is a terrible phrase). We are practically begging non-whites to join us. Turns out, not many qualified women/blacks/Latinos are interesting to moving to Turkmenistan, which means any who apply are practically handed the job on a silver platter, but almost useless when they arrive in-country.



Sacrosanct said:


> Thirdly, you think it's outrageous that someone would dare tell a man they couldn't rise higher because it's so rare of that happening so it stands out (give me a couple examples, by the way).  But that happens _every day_ to minorities.  To put it in D&D terms, you sound like those 4e fans who complained they were being treated unfairly and forsaken by WoTC when 5e came out, and fans of every edition prior just rolled their eyes because they all had been through it themselves when their edition got shelved.




I've never heard anyone in the US tell anyone else he/she could only rise so far in a position because of race/sex/religion/etc.. Maybe it happens. Regardless, I'm not sure affirmative action and _increased inequality_ is the best way combat it.



Sacrosanct said:


> Fourthly, privilege is a lot of things, including but not limited to:
> 
> *you are assured that when you find a gaming group, there will be several people part of that group like you (same gender and ethnicity) - *Caring about the color or someone's sex or race is racism, which is exactly what you're suggestion we do.*
> * every time you turn on the TV, or open a newspaper, you are assured someone like you is on the front cover or plays the major role in the show - *See my comment above.*
> ...




Bolded comments are mine



Sacrosanct said:


> The list goes on and on.  Just open your eyes.  If you want a _huge _example of white privilege, it's why Obama had to be perfect or people lost their minds in outrage (one of his biggest scandals was saluting with a coffee cup for Christ's sake), but Trump, as a white man, has been able to do all of these outrageous things and yet the _same _people who lambasted Obama are all "eh, no big deal, nothing to see here."  That's not just a republican vs democrat thing, that's a black vs white thing.  Every woman and every minority who has had to work harder _because _of their race or gender knows exactly what I'm talking about because they do it every day.




If that is the case, action should be taken. That is why there is a court system in the US and anti-discrimination laws. I agree that they need to be rewritten, but they are there to be taken advantage of.



Sacrosanct said:


> Look man, I grew up poor white trash in poverty.  But  you know what?  All it takes is for me to have one nice set of clothes and carry myself professionally and no one knew my background and I got to enjoy all the great benefits of being a white guy.  Women and minorities don't have to ability to put on a suit and have people forget they are a woman or a minority.  And if you think widespread discrimination doesn't exist to this day, you must be living under a rock.




No is arguing widespread discrimination doesn't exist. We are arguing about the best way to decrease the overall level of inequality overall. For me, that meant leaving the US and flying to places in the world that make the amount of inequality and discrimination in the US look like a joke.


----------



## Mistwell (Jan 21, 2018)

For those still in this train wreck of a reprehensible thread which will inevitably go down in flames and get closed by Morrus being rightfully disgusted....I welcome you to CircvsMaximvs.com, the evil stepsister message board to this one. Where this sort of conversation is welcome, and can be met with the, uh, directness it warrants.


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## Sacrosanct (Jan 21, 2018)

WayOfTheFourElements said:


> I'm not questioning the hire because she's a women. I'm question it based on the words "Affirmative Action" being present in the Physical Requirements section of the job description.




Hogwash. Those words are there and if a man was hired you wouldn’t have questioned it. Therefore, it’s pretty obvious you questioned it because she’s a woman. 



> Bolded comments are mine
> 
> 
> 
> .




You completely missed the point.


----------



## WayOfTheFourElements (Jan 21, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> And one other thing, as someone with a lot of experience in hiring and managing people.  It is a proven undeniable fact that a diverse workforce is significantly more efficient and effective than a homogeneous one.  Pretty much every experienced manager knows this, because the data has been out a long time.  So a manager who hires a minority isn't necessarily being driven by reverse racism motivations, but is making the hire based on what will make the team the best, objectively.




Which is fine; adding the words "Affirmative Action Employer" under the "Physical Requirements" heading of one's job description is not.


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## Sorcerers Apprentice (Jan 21, 2018)

robus said:


> And no social interactions with NPCs ever? And no interactions with the environment?




All entirely tactical.


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## bedir than (Jan 21, 2018)

We play a game that works best when there is diversity in the group (race, class, etc), and yet there are people who somehow think that this game that emphasizes diversity is best designed by people who are part of a mono-culture. This BAFFLES me.


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## WayOfTheFourElements (Jan 21, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> Hogwash. Those words are there and if a man was hired you wouldn’t have questioned it. Therefore, it’s pretty obvious you questioned it because she’s a woman.




No. I question is because of a combination of adding the phrase, "Affirmative Action," and hiring a women. Furthermore, nowhere have I said anywhere that WotC hired the wrong person. Only have I argued that because of affirmative action we will never know if Ms. Welch was the best candidate for the job. I have nothing against her personally, nor against WotC. My only interest is that politics remain outside the realm of children's hobbies; oth D&D and MtG have become increasingly politicized in recent years. 



Sacrosanct said:


> You completely missed the point.




Which point? The one in which wrote a number of blanket statements that all turned out to be untrue because individuals are more than a group of identity-based stereotypes?


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## kenmarable (Jan 21, 2018)

WayOfTheFourElements said:


> Which is fine; adding the words "Affirmative Action Employer" under the "Physical Requirements" heading of one's job description is not.




It is not under the Physical Requirements section of the job post!

Look at these examples

In the cut and paste, space was removed. Every single job post there has bullet points for the requirements and then incredibly standard boilerplate text at the bottom. Every single job I have ever applied for in the past several decades has had something similar at the bottom. It’s nothing unusual and it is especially NOT part of the “Physical Requirements.” Took about a minute to look at the Wizards site to confirm that.


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## WayOfTheFourElements (Jan 21, 2018)

kenmarable said:


> It is not under the Physical Requirements section of the job post!
> 
> Look at these examples
> 
> In the cut and paste, space was removed. Every single job post there has bullet points for the requirements and then incredibly standard boilerplate text at the bottom. Every single job I have ever applied for in the past several decades has had something similar at the bottom. It’s nothing unusual and it is especially NOT part of the “Physical Requirements.” Took about a minute to look at the Wizards site to confirm that.




I stand corrected.


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## Sacrosanct (Jan 21, 2018)

WayOfTheFourElements said:


> Which point? The one in which wrote a number of blanket statements that all turned out to be untrue because individuals are more than a group of identity-based stereotypes?




Everything I said was true, and to be honest, isn't really up for debate because they're pretty obvious.  I have no idea what sort of red herring you're trying to make the argument into, but everything I listed as what are forms of privilege are true and exist.


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## WayOfTheFourElements (Jan 21, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> Everything I said was true, and to be honest, isn't really up for debate because they're pretty obvious.  I have no idea what sort of red herring you're trying to make the argument into, but everything I listed as what are forms of privilege are true and exist.




I'm not trying to make anything into a red herring. 

You wrote: 



> *you are assured that when you find a gaming group, there will be several people part of that group like you (same gender and ethnicity)
> * every time you turn on the TV, or open a newspaper, you are assured someone like you is on the front cover or plays the major role in the show
> * minorities convicted of the same offenses (from traffic tickets to murder) as a white person suffer much harsher penalties than white people do. This is a a fact.
> * you are assured that you can enter pretty much any town in America and find a church of your faith (for those who are religious)
> ...




I explained how each of those statements (except one) are incorrect. Either you are now calling me a liar or are supposing that my identity as a white man supersedes my personal identity as a human being with a unique collection of experiences (just like everyone else).

Now, racial prejudice probably does exist, but I don't see how affirmative action (which increases the overall amount of systematic inequality) is the correct method to use. I would suggest measures that reduce the importance of race an push towards a heightened form of individual meritocracy, instead.


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## OB1 (Jan 21, 2018)

Conflating affirmative action with quotas is a great way to muddy the debate.  Most people can understand why a company that is all white and all male might make an affirmative effort to look for qualified candidates who are not white or male.  Most people also bristle at the ideas of quotas, because with quotas, you are potentially advancing less qualified candidates over more qualified ones.

But it's a myth that business who have affirmative action hiring protocols hire less qualified individuals for open positions.  Primarily, the additional effort to expand the job applicant pool results in finding a more qualified applicant than would otherwise have applied.  In the case of finding equally qualified individuals, the final decision likely comes down to how the company feels the person will fit into the overall culture of the company

As a real world example, the Rooney Rule in the NFL is illuminating.  This rule did not carry any quota, it was simply an affirmative action to ensure that at least one minority candidate was interviewed for each head coaching vacancy in the NFL.  5 Black head coaches were hired in the 40 years prior to the 2003 implementation of this rule, 15 have been hired in the 15 years since.  This is not a coincidence.  It's not because suddenly black assistant coaches learned how to coach.  It's that prior to 2003, they weren't even being interviewed.  

And for the less qualified people who didn't get hired because of the Rooney Rule?  Too bad, now you have to compete with everyone.  And that's what this is really about.  People whining because they suddenly have more competition for positions.  Fortunately for consumers, this process leads to a better product and will continue to grow in practice as businesses realize that the best way to compete in the marketplace is to make sure they hire the best people.


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## Slit518 (Jan 21, 2018)

Dear everyone bugging out about Kate Welch being hired on the D&D team,

Stop acting like children.  Stop bugging out over it.
If she isn't able to do the job, help contribute to a good product that will have good sales, she will be fired.
OR
If she doesn't get fired, it's because she is good at the job, knows what she is doing, and was the right candidate for the position.

~Slit518


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## WayOfTheFourElements (Jan 21, 2018)

OB1 said:


> Conflating affirmative action with quotas is a great way to muddy the debate. Most people can understand why a company that is all white and all male might make an affirmative effort to look for qualified candidates who are not white or male. Most people also bristle at the ideas of quotas, because with quotas, you are potentially advancing less qualified candidates over more qualified ones.




In many international organizations (which is where I have experience) that is exactly how it works in order to continue receiving UN/EU/USAID funding for major projects. If the minority quotes are not met, funding denied.



OB1 said:


> And for the less qualified people who didn't get hired because of the Rooney Rule?  Too bad, now you have to compete with everyone.  And that's what this is really about.  People whining because they suddenly have more competition for positions.  Fortunately for consumers, this process leads to a better product and will continue to grow in practice as businesses realize that the best way to compete in the marketplace is to make sure they hire the best people.




I don't think anyone here is complaining about that.


----------



## OB1 (Jan 21, 2018)

WayOfTheFourElements said:


> No. I question is because of a combination of adding the phrase, "Affirmative Action," and hiring a women. Furthermore, nowhere have I said anywhere that WotC hired the wrong person. Only have I argued that because of affirmative action we will never know if Ms. Welch was the best candidate for the job.




This type of conflation between Affirmative Action and quotas is exactly what I'm talking about.  Affirmative action *ENSURES* that Ms. Welch was the best candidate for the job.  It's not a quota, its a means to ensure that qualified candidates are found and interviewed.  If you believe that WoTC hired a less qualified applicant because she was a woman, you don't understand a thing about the way business actually works.


----------



## OB1 (Jan 21, 2018)

WayOfTheFourElements said:


> In many international organizations (which is where I have experience) that is exactly how it works in order to continue receiving UN/EU/USAID funding for major projects. If the minority quotes are not met, funding denied.




We are not talking about an international organization receiving UN/EU/USAID funding.  We are talking about a private US business that used Affirmative Action to find the best qualified individual.


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## WayOfTheFourElements (Jan 21, 2018)

OB1 said:


> This type of conflation between Affirmative Action and quotas is exactly what I'm talking about.  Affirmative action *ENSURES* that Ms. Welch was the best candidate for the job.  It's not a quota, its a means to ensure that qualified candidates are found and interviewed.  If you believe that WoTC hired a less qualified applicant because she was a woman, you don't understand a thing about the way business actually works.




No. I believe WotC hired the candidate they wanted in an attempt to appear more diverse and progressive in order to draw in a larger audience of female gamers, grow the hobby, and cash in on more sales. Furthermore, WotC probably made the right move and will attract that audience, but only because a large section of western society is overly obsessed with artificially enforcing equality a benevolent (though, in my opinion, methodologically inconsistent) attempt to combat cosmic injustice.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Jan 21, 2018)

WayOfTheFourElements said:


> I explained how each of those statements (except one) are incorrect.




They aren't incorrect.  They are all true.  And in case it isn't obvious, I'm using "you' in the general term to represent white men

*you are assured that when you find a gaming group, there will be several people part of that group like you (same gender and ethnicity) *TRUE*
* every time you turn on the TV, or open a newspaper, you are assured someone like you is on the front cover or plays the major role in the show *TRUE*
* minorities convicted of the same offenses (from traffic tickets to murder) as a white person suffer much harsher penalties than white people do. This is a a fact. *TRUE* (not only do we have actual numbers that support this, but we have people like John Ehrlichman (Nixon's top aide) who came right out and admitted to specifically targeting minority communities with harsher penalties.)
* you are assured that you can enter pretty much any town in America and find a church of your faith (for those who are religious) *TRUE*
* You have never done something right and immediately had someone say you're a credit to your race/gender *TRUE*
* no one questions a promotion you may have gotten *TRUE*
* you've never had people stare at you or follow you around because they think you're gonna steal something *TRUE*
* you've never had people cross the street just to avoid you on a daily basis *TRUE*
* you're probably able to walk down a busy street without people harassing you on a daily basis *TRUE*

So when I say you missed the point, it's because you said "well, one of those things did happen to me".  Congratulations.  But one exception doesn't make those statement untrue because those things happen to almost _every _minority almost _every _day.  That's the point.  And quite frankly, I'm getting really tired of white people saying "well, one time I experienced this, so we have it the same."  No.  No you don't.  Not unless all of those things happen to you every freaking day, to every freaking white man.





> Either you are now calling me a liar or are supposing that my identity as a white man supersedes my personal identity as a human being with a unique collection of experiences (just like everyone else).
> .




No, what I'm saying is that you're either being deliberately obtuse because despite the evidence presented in front of you, you refuse to admit it and instead try to counter with some reasoning that has nothing to do with what I was saying, or you're being deliberately dishonest, or you just don't have the first understanding about how affirmative action and privilege work.  Right now, I'm leaning on the latter.


----------



## WayOfTheFourElements (Jan 21, 2018)

OB1 said:


> We are not talking about an international organization receiving UN/EU/USAID funding.  We are talking about a private US business that used Affirmative Action to find the best qualified individual.




Not really. I'm discussing how the existence of affirmative action clouds our perceptions of a candidate's qualifications and causes me to be skeptical of a woman/minority's qualifications when I otherwise wouldn't be.

I have no problem with the outcome (WotC hiring Ms. Welch), only the methodology.


----------



## OB1 (Jan 21, 2018)

WayOfTheFourElements said:


> Not really. I'm discussing how the existence of affirmative action clouds our perceptions of a candidate's qualifications and causes me to be skeptical of a woman/minority's qualifications when I otherwise wouldn't be.
> 
> I have no problem with the outcome (WotC hiring Ms. Welch), only the methodology.




I am 100% positive that WoTC has 0 concern with how you feel about their hiring process.  


Sent from my iPhone using EN World mobile app


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## WayOfTheFourElements (Jan 21, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> They aren't incorrect.  They are all true.  And in case it isn't obvious, I'm using "you' in the general term to represent white men
> 
> *you are assured that when you find a gaming group, there will be several people part of that group like you (same gender and ethnicity) *TRUE*
> * every time you turn on the TV, or open a newspaper, you are assured someone like you is on the front cover or plays the major role in the show *TRUE*
> ...




In other words, my membership to certain groups (group "white" and group "male") outweighs my experiences as an individual. Instead of using the word "you" to refer to be as a individual, you refer to me in terms of a group identify, thereby disallowing my any individual experience outside of the norm of those two groups. How is that not racism?

Just to make sure, let's look at the definition of that word, *racism*.

1. prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

2. the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.


Since neither of us hold the position that any one race is superior to another, let's more on to the second definition. By seeing me as only a member of my race (and gender) instead of an individual with a unique collection of experiences and opinions you have glided dreadfully close to the second definition, my position remains to banish all notion of identify groups completely. 




Sacrosanct said:


> No, what I'm saying is that you're either being deliberately obtuse because despite the evidence presented in front of you, you refuse to admit it and instead try to counter with some reasoning that has nothing to do with what I was saying, or you're being deliberately dishonest, or you just don't have the first understanding about how affirmative action and privilege work.  Right now, I'm leaning on the latter.




What are you trying to get me to admit? That I have advantages because I'm a white male. Sure in some places (Atlanta, Georgia perhaps). In other places I don't (Turkmenistan, for example). In either case, that discrimination is equally disgusting and the thoughts of those who hold either of those opinions should be regarded with equal contempt.

In either case, however, my identity as part of a specific group is overshadowed by my identity as an individual. The sooner we all stop seeing the word in terms of race the better. Affirmative action, whose very existence supports the notion of placing group identity in competition with the identify and experiences of the individual, should be abolished.


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## WayOfTheFourElements (Jan 21, 2018)

OB1 said:


> I am 100% positive that WoTC has 0 concern with how you feel about their hiring process.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using EN World mobile app




And they shouldn't.


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## Shroomy (Jan 21, 2018)

https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/955153201434525696


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## Sacrosanct (Jan 21, 2018)

YES!  Your personal anecdote doesn’t override how everyone else is treated in general, or proves that privilege doesn’t really exist. For Christ’s sake...

 No one can be this obtuse. The more you post, the more convinced I am of what kind of person you are. And it’s not the kind of person I’m going to waste my time on.   So shine on.


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## ShinHakkaider (Jan 21, 2018)

WayOfTheFourElements said:


> In either case, however, my identity as part of a specific group is overshadowed by my identity as an individual. The sooner we all stop seeing the word in terms of race the better. Affirmative action, whose very existence supports the notion of placing group identity in competition with the identify and experiences of the individual, should be abolished.




This is not how the actual real world works and you know this. 

Affirmative Action only exists because historically in the US everyone other than white men were considered second or third class citizens. Historically white men in this this country DIDNT care if a black/brown man or woman or a white woman was qualified or MORE qualified for a position, they, more often than not, would still hire a white male in thier stead. 

It's part of the reason why AA exisits in the first place. AA isnt even very old (IIRC I'm thinking early 60's) if you have parents who are still alive? They were around before AA and benefited from it. 

To believe as you do that AA should be abolished is to believe that white america as a whole (because that's still where the bulk of finiancial power lies) can be trusted to be fair and unbiased and not racist and sexist toward anyone who IS NOT white and male. And if youve been paying attention AT ALL to what's been going on in the world? You'd know that is NOT THE CASE.


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## WayOfTheFourElements (Jan 21, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> YES!  Your personal anecdote doesn’t override how everyone else is treated in general. For Christ’s sake...
> 
> No one can be this obtuse. The more you post, the more convinced I am of what kind of person you are. And it’s not the kind of person I’m going to waste my time on.   So shine on.




Apparently is discriminatory to believe that discrimination should not be fought with discrimination. 

Humans are humans are humans. We are not only the sum of pre-assigned groups based on our physical traits. Every human is an individual and should be treated as such without regards for race, gender, religion, etc. When exactly did it become offensive to believe this?


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## WayOfTheFourElements (Jan 21, 2018)

ShinHakkaider said:


> This is not how the actual real world works and you know this.
> 
> Affirmative Action only exists because historically in the US everyone other than white men were considered second or third class citizens. Historically white men in this this country DIDNT care if a black/brown man or woman or a white woman was qualified or MORE qualified for a position, they, more often than not, would still hire a white male in thier stead.
> 
> ...




My parents were both born the late 60's. Nice try, though.

Dude. I work abroad in Turkmenistan promotion women's and minority right. I understand what is happening in the word. Discrimination in the US is a joke compared to what I strike to correct on a daily basis.

I believe that humans are intelligence, adaptable creatures and that fighting social discrimination with further systematized discrimination not the best way to approach equality.


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## hawkeyefan (Jan 21, 2018)

WayOfTheFourElements said:


> Which emphasizes one of the key issues with affirmative action; you can _never know_ if a woman or minority actually got the job because s/he was the best candidate or because of some misguided attempt to minimize cosmic justice or social trends (or the possibility of true sexism). De-level the playing field and suddenly everyone starts pointing fingers at each other.
> 
> It doesn't even matter if Ms. Melch were hired because of a prevailing attitude in favor of affirmative action or not. The mere presence of the possibility is what is causing all the unrest seen on these forums. From what I've seen no one here is expressing actual sexist views. They're criticizing the policy, not the human.




You can never know why anyone got a job. How many people do you know that have the job they have because of someone they know? Their uncle is the boss, or their dad went to college with the boss, or whatever. So many people benefit from this kind of nepotism.

So do you always assume when a white guy gets a job that it must be because he’s related to the boss? Or do you assume that maybe the people hiring him have brains and have decided he may be the best candidate? 

At what point do you accept that maybe a woman is the best candodate? There is literally zero evidence of there being any reason for Kate Welch being hired except that Wizards felt she was the best candidate. Zero evidence otherwise. 

But you can’t see it.


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## ShinHakkaider (Jan 21, 2018)

WayOfTheFourElements said:


> My parents were both born the late 60's. Nice try, though.
> 
> Dude. I work abroad in Turkmenistan promotion women's and minority right. I understand what is happening in the word. Discrimination in the US is a joke compared to what I strike to correct on a daily basis.
> 
> I believe that humans are intelligence, adaptable creatures and that fighting social discrimination with further systematized discrimination not the best way to approach equality.




I notice that you cited intelligence and being adaptable when talking about humans, you dont mention fair minded and just though. 

You also push abolishing AA but propose nothing, no ideas on what to replace it with. You simply trust that whatever group who holds power to be fair and just? That notion is not just laughable but belies a lack of knowledge of history as well as an understanding of human nature. 

I've also noted that you didnt at all address the meat of what I wrote concenring the need for AA in the first place. You just felt it neccesary to snark me about my "if your parents" comment, Which is why it wrote "IF" in the first place.


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## ShinHakkaider (Jan 21, 2018)

WayOfTheFourElements said:


> Dude. I work abroad in Turkmenistan promotion women's and minority right. I understand what is happening in the word. Discrimination in the US is a joke compared to what I strike to correct on a daily basis.
> l




Also, as a black man in the US I dont find discrimination to be a joke AT ALL. But hey thanks for minimizing and trivializing that...


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## WayOfTheFourElements (Jan 21, 2018)

ShinHakkaider said:


> I notice that you cited intelligence and being adaptable when talking about humans, you dont mention fair minded and just though.
> 
> You also push abolishing AA but propose nothing, no ideas on what to replace it with. You simply trust that whatever group who holds power to be fair and just? That notion is not just laughable but belies a lack of knowledge of history as well as an understanding of human nature.
> 
> I've also noted that you didnt at all address the meat of what I wrote concenring the need for AA in the first place. You just felt it neccesary to snark me about my "if your parents" comment, Which is why it wrote "IF" in the first place.




We as humans are adapting to live peacefully with each other and have been steadily improving in the way we do so. Instead of systematized solutions we need to crank down on individual instances of discrimination in which people are unfairly treated due to age, race, gender, religion, etc.. It is a job for the courts, not legislature. Legislature only limits personal freedom and creates resentment - which is one of the reasons why the US is stuck with Trump as president for at least the next three years.


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## ShinHakkaider (Jan 21, 2018)

WayOfTheFourElements said:


> We as humans are adapting to live peacefully with each other and have been steadily improving in the way we do so. Instead of systematized solutions we need to crank down on individual instances of discrimination in which people are unfairly treated due to age, race, gender, religion, etc.. It is a job for the courts, not legislature. Legislature only limits personal freedom and creates resentment - which is one of the reasons why the US is stuck with Trump as president for at least the next three years.




Prior to the Legislating the courts did not fairly adjudicate for people treated unfairly due to gender and race. Again, YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS. Youre asking to go back to that when CLEARLY people would go back to enforcing unfair treatment for people of color and women. 

The resentment youre talking about or conveininetly NOT talking about is resentment from the white males who see any step toward parity as thier rights being taken away or diminished. Which, in light of your previous statements make certain things clear about your position. 

Have a good day sir, madam.


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## Morrus (Jan 21, 2018)

This thread has drifted way off topic and into topics not allowed here on EN World. Folks, please focus on D&D and game designers, not on general social politics. This isn’t the place for it. Thanks!


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## Von Ether (Jan 21, 2018)

I wonder if this means the pay disparity between CRPG designers and RPG designers is closing.

I mean we have guys who moonlight as RPG company CEOs as compared to their day job at a video game company.

Well as I define "closing the gap" as in "top RPG RPG company offers a gig that pays as much as a standard video game gig."


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## Mavkatzer (Jan 21, 2018)

I know this thread can be upsetting, but it's good we're having this conversation.   Rather than ignoring issues of inequality, we need to bring these issues into the light.  And sense our hobby continues to contain voices of  bigotry, it is entirely appropriate that this conversation happens here.

I find many statements here to be sexist.  Other statements ignore or deny the social mechanisms that restrict minorities and women.  But I want these ignorant statements to be made publicly.  The beliefs they highlight continue to persist; rather than have those beliefs fester below the surface I'd prefer they be exposed for the factual errors and logical fallacies they rest upon.

These conversations may be painful or raise our blood pressure, but they help facilitate the changes we need to create a fairer, more just society (and gaming community!).  They expose the rotting foundations of an unjust status quo.

So, thanks to all of you here who have taken the time and effort to debunk sexist and bigoted notions.   And thank you for clarifying and detailing the structural barriers that continue to undermine minorities and women.  It matters that you are doing this, and it makes me proud to be a gamer.


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## Mavkatzer (Jan 21, 2018)

Sorry [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION]
My comment was was being written as you posted.  I will remove it if requested.


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## schnee (Jan 21, 2018)

WayOfTheFourElements said:


> Dude. I work abroad in Turkmenistan promotion women's and minority right. I understand what is happening in the word. Discrimination in the US is a joke compared to what I strike to correct on a daily basis.




Wow, what a coincidence!

I'm a lifelong Democrat and I absolutely hate everything about Obama, Hillary, and the current Democratic Party, and I think Fox News gets a lot of things right, and that Trump has been getting unfairly criticized and respect what he's doing for our country!

I'm Black, and think Black Lives Matter is the single worst thing to ever happen to this country, and think if my own people had a lot more respect for cops and stopped listening to that horrible Rap music and stopped blaming everyone else for their own self-created problems, they'd be much better off and 'racism' would be a thing from the past!

I'm also a Woman, and think that to call yourself a Feminist is to literally hate men with every fiber of your being, to encourage Lesbianism, and to be literally destroying the sanctity of the home and family and ruining our children and killing puppies!

We're exactly alike! 

...shall I go on?




(PS just in case Poe's Law makes this hard to parse, I'm being sarcastic)


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## Morrus (Jan 21, 2018)

Well that didn't go as planned. Thread closed.


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