# Challenging my high-lvl group (NPCs and monsters; my players shouldn't read this!)



## Piratecat

If you play in my campaign, shoo! Shoo!  There's secret stuff here, and I trust you not to go and read it.

-
--
---
----
-----
------
-------
Spoiler space
-------
------
-----
----
---
--
-

Okay. I'll periodically post NPCs, monsters, and that sort of thing here! We'll see if anyone is interested.

Two rules: please don't post any conversation about these things on the story hour, and don't mention any of this stuff to any of my players in other threads.  For this to work, I don't want them to feel like I'm (or you are) taunting them with hidden information.    All specific conversation about these things should stay here.

Thanks!


----------



## Piratecat

We'll start off with the necropede.  It's in the story hour somewhere around here, posted on 3/21/02.

The necropede was something I cobbled together at almost the last minute. I wanted a monster that could burrow, that was scary, and that the PCs wouldn't expect. I thought, "What about ghoulish umber hulks - nah - or purple worms? Damn, I'm not sure yet whether or not I want the true ghoul template to work on non-humanoids. But... they have creepy necromantic flesh-altering magics, right? And what if you made a purple worm FROM a bunch of ghouls?  Oh yeah, that oughta work."  The bit where the skin turns around and sprouts arms didn't actually occur to me until it was already in combat... I wanted to scare the people who WEREN'T swallowed, and my general rule of thumb is that even if it doesn't hurt them, they'll remember it if it looks scary and they don't really know what it is.

That's a good rule of thumb, actually; when it isn't immediately identifiable and classifiable, it's a lot creepier. I was at a con this weekend. An otherwise decent DM was describing a haunted, haggard NPC who was slowly dying of bad dreams and con loss. Then a PC made a knowledge: arcane check, and the DM said, "Oh, it's probably a night hag. Here's a picture of one. They live in the ethereal plane, and...."  Well, there goes the excitement!  

Because this was cobbled together, expect some errors. I took a purple worm, slapped a true ghoulish template on it, tossed the poison stinger, added some additional grappling abilities, and went from there. But it's creepy, eh?  

*Necropede* (ghoulish conglomeration)
Gargantuan Undead
Hit Dice: 20d12 (130 hp)
Initiative: -2 (Dex)
Speed: 20 ft., burrow 20 ft., swim 10 ft.
AC: 19 (-4 size, -2 Dex, +15 natural)
Attacks: Bite +18 melee, grappling claws +11 melee
Damage: Bite 2d8+12 and paralyzation (DC 22)/1 pt strength drain, grappling claws 1d8+6 and paralyzation (DC 22)/1 pt strength drain
Face/Reach: 30 ft. by 30 ft. (coiled)/15_ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, swallow whole, strength drain, paralyzation
Special Qualities: Tremorsense, undead, turn resistance +4, resistant to blows
Saves: Fort +10 (immune), Ref +8, Will +4
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 6, Con --, Int 1, Wis 8, Cha 8
Skills: Climb +14

Roughly CR 16, I think.

Resistant to Blows (Ex): Physical attacks deal only half damage to true ghouls and ghoulish conglomerations. Apply this effect before damage reduction. 

Undead: Immune to mind-influencing effects, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, and disease. Not subject to critical hits, subdual damage, ability damage, energy drain, or death from massive damage. 


A few comments:

A successful hit should do 1 point of strength drain; a creature grappled or swallowed loses one point per round, too. I actually forgot to do this in combat, so I decided that it only works when below ground. That way, when the PCs fight them in the underdark, I'll have a good rationale for it that doesn't involve me having to assign the PCs strength damage after the fact.

This type of ghoulish conglomeration requires several hundred true ghouls to create.  Upon death, it splits apart to liberate approximately 80 true ghouls capable of attacks. All other true ghouls perish when the conglomeration perishes.

Everything else is pretty straight-forward, as per a purple worm. So, the question is... what would you have done differently? What other types of conglomerations should there be?  *grin*


----------



## Fajitas

>shudder<

I particularly like the way that it bursts apart when you finally kill it.

As for future conglomerates, I'd say any form of creepy crawly would do.  I sort of got stuck on the idea of a ghoul crab-- the hard exoskeleton is made of bones merged together, filled with flesh-merged ghouls inside that serve as the musculature.  The exoskeleton would give it a nasty AC for natural armor, plus ghoul hands could reach out between the exoskeleton bones to claw and paralyze hapless PCs.


----------



## Crothian

I like the crab or other crustcean idea.  I've always liked creatures that come from the water to raid land and go back into the water.  Adds an additional level of difficulty for the PCs.


----------



## Sir Osis of Liver

*WOW!*

I'm glad your're not my DM, because that thing is nasty. It was scary just reading it, i can imagine how those poor PC's fealt.

It's a shame you forgot the Strength drain, IMO nothing gets a player scared like the words ability drain. Although it will be cool to see them soil themselves the first time they fight one underground.

If the PC's ever end up in the water, a dire shark or whale version would be pretty cool. The pc's look over the ships rail and see the undulating mass of teeth, claws, and undead flesh speeding towards the ship just under the waters glassy surface.

I think that'd be cool.

Where can one find the True Ghoul template?

It sounds nasty, I'd love to torcher my group with something like the necropeed next time i DM.


----------



## Piratecat

Here's one person's version of the true ghoul template.

http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=561

It was originally a monster developed by Wolf Baur for his Dungeon adventure "The Kingdom of the Ghouls." I've made some changes in the template (and a LOT of changes in the module), but that's my starting point.

I note that Fajitas, who plays Shara in my game when he's not in California, is a well-qualified rat bastard. I like the crab idea!  I like the whale concept, too. Not that much water in most of the underdark, though!  

The next thing I'll show you here is Arballine, a ghoulish archer who's had a _bad_ year. Later this week!


----------



## Crothian

Perhaps a bunch of bats with this applied.  A bunch of little flying things.  Sort of like in Pitch Black.


----------



## BBQ Man

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *The next thing I'll show you here is Arballine, a ghoulish archer who's had a bad year. Later this week! *




Darn, so it is a Goulish Archer, I was thinking along the lines of an undead 'living' balista, firing arrows with arrowheads of pygmied undead heads screaming and slathering with little mouths.

But wait!  it could still be a Goulish archer with a bow made from bone, grafted onto one of the arms.


hehe

BBQ Man


----------



## Crothian

Perhaps the projectiles could be undead themselves.  That could work with either the Balista or the archer.  After the projectiles hit or even miss they animate and start attacking.....


----------



## BBQ Man

I could see an emaciated mostly bony form with tiny arms and legs that branch out when a hit occurs.  I did something similar with rangers using arrows that animated into twig creatures when they struck.  Similar to twigblights.

probably would have to make them skeletons though, kinda makes more sense I think.



BBQ Man


----------



## Piratecat

I think I'm hiring you folk as executive consultants.    WHY didn't I think of the ballistae idea myself? And the undead arrow idea is superb.  I'll just stow that away for future use.  But I don't think you'll be disappointed anyways! We'll find out in a few days.


----------



## Crothian

Personally, I like the twigblight idea for the Rangers.  That goes great with a Canine race I use.  Just one Deepwood Sniper a mile away that keeps firing these things.  Who needs summoning spells?  Same can be applied to the Undead or even Constructs.  Places a bunch of tiny Iron Golems in a catapult and fire.  Mighty expensive, but I think it could be quite efective.


----------



## BBQ Man

Come to think of it, I remember that there were a bunch of 'living' weapons/tools/objects that were present on Athas, the halflings of a certain area used them, I think some of them would work wonderfully as 'Ghoulish' versions.  Going to have to dig out that Dark Sun supplement.



BBQ Man


----------



## JacktheRabbit

Very nice, the best part of the worm is that the worm is actually much weaker than people will think.  Looking at the stats compared to reading about it really shows how well you used to creature relative to its actual combat power.


----------



## Rune

Gah!



			
				Piratecat said:
			
		

> *So, the question is... what would you have done differently? What other types of conglomerations should there be?  *grin* *




I'd post my "undying undead" template, but I'm pretty sure one of my players is reading this thread!  It probably works best at lower levels, anyway...


----------



## BBQ Man

Found it!

Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs

available here

Will look over it and see if anything jumps out at me.

Oh, and as for tiny ghoulish men for arrows, now that I think of it, they would be better described as skeletons with their skin still on, stretched tight and tanned, flying through the air with their hands before them like a diver about to part the water's surface. (better aerodynamics)

The Twigblight arrows my players still hate, luckily (or unluckily) the knowledge for their creation is restricted to mad xenophobic elves in my campaign world.  "Crossing the River" is a common saying along the border to denote doing unbelievably stupid things, usually bringing death or destruction to people and property.

Oh, is there a mechanic for the surviving ghouls in the necropede? something like '5d20' or is it DM choice?

Your players are going to hate this thread. 

BBQ Man


Edit: Corrected saying, added definition.


----------



## Crothian

You could give the living arrows flight ability, so any that miss fly on around for another chance to strike next round.  While the ones that hit are grappling with their target.  I think this would be a great high level encounter.  You have to deal with the grappling living arrows, the flying arrows that are still trying to strike you, and the creature(s) firing these little bastards at you.  

When you go to attack the Archers, they just throw their Quiver full of living arrows at you!


----------



## RangerWickett

Well, this is an idea I have planned for my next game, and it's not ghoulish, but you might be able to adapt it.

I have an order of monk/psions (egoists) who gain their powers by briefly drawing on the soul of another creature.  Training begins by learning how to tap into the physical soul which is bound up with the body.  The monastery keeps caged bears, hawks, rats, and other standard creatures, and so some of the primary abilities the psions take are things like Claws of the Bear, Animal Affinity, Featherfall, and a few other shapechange abilities.  More powerful members of the order can tap into more intellectual aspects of the soul, allowing them to gain skill ranks, feats, and also knowledge (a la telepathy).

When members of the order abuse their powers, they are cast out, and their souls are rended, leaving a soulless body with a mind, but no compassion.  It is possible to recover your soul, however, and one of the PCs is going to try to do just that.

In the monastery, he'll have to pass several tests to prove his spirit, and there'll be some psychological delving, but the climax will come when he and the rest of the party come upon the last member who was cast out of the order.  When this guy tried to pass the test, he came with his companions, but he failed the test, and in the process the group of them all lost the ability to pull their souls apart, and they created an amalgam of each person's body.

The creature resembles a giant head, with one large face on the front that is twisted in pain.  Instead of a normal mouth, though, a dozen arms thrust out at different angles.  Around the sides of the head are over a half-dozen other faces, all distinct as if they had been individuals before they became a piece of this monstrosity.  The head floats in the air, the air around it filled with a cacophony of cries, songs, screams, and moans.

Where the giant head's ear should be, the shoulders, head, and one arm of a woman thust out, and she beckons for the group to approach, singing a lament.  Near beside her is a face with flesh drawn tight across the skull, screaming in agony, its eyes rolled back.  The other faces consist of an Elf woman who continually claws at the body around her with the one arm she can still control, a reptilian head that is half-caught in the flesh and puffs flame from its lips, a dark Elf from whose mouth spiders scramble and drop to the floor, an elderly man with a tear-streaked face, and the lolling head and neck of a blank-eyed woman.  There might be more, but you can't see them clearly.

.

I basically needed a monster, and always wanted to use a nice beholder, but with a twist.  The monastery is called the Temple of Echoed Souls, so I decided to make a sound-based Beholder, with various effects caused by song and screams.  The arms can tear a person apart much like a bite attack could, and the central face still creates antimagic, but I shuffled the powers around.

A floating beholder-esque clump of ghoulish spellcasters might be a possibility.  Each one could cast a different spell, or even have it's own complete spell list.


----------



## maddman75

On the crustaceans - what about skeletons - maybe something tougher with the Skeleton template from the WotC web site, with ghouls for its musculature?  It seems to work a lot better visually IMO - something with an exoskeleton should have skeletons in it

btw PKitty - that fight rules, consider the necropede stolen .  Any my players were bitching about the stuff in nightfang spire.  Bwahahaha


----------



## BBQ Man

large skeleton creatures are cool, Sagiro used them in his campaign in a rather nice episode, but Piratecat probably wants to keep away from the similarity as much as possible.


BBQ Man


----------



## omedon

Congratulations Piratecat!

This is the coolest new monster I have seen all year. I hope it shows up in OSM 3.

Which gives me an idea. Can you say psionic necropedes?


----------



## Plane Sailing

Another idea is a minimalised version of the necropede - One of the true ghoul humans which they fight could actually be composed of hundreds of ghoulish rats (or equivalent diminutive humanoids) - once that is "killed" it breaks into a swarm of tiny little paralysing b****rs.

BTW, I would have thought that the 80 true ghouls could have a more devastating effect than the necropede - with so many extra chances to roll a 1 on a save...


----------



## Piratecat

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> *BTW, I would have thought that the 80 true ghouls could have a more devastating effect than the necropede - with so many extra chances to roll a 1 on a save... *




True! But remember, it isn't combat optimized. It's tunnel burrowing and large-scale transport optimized. Big difference! 

Mmmm, ghoulish rats. They pop when you turn 'em!


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

I'm going to offer a couple of nasty creatures that I've seen used from the player side of things (so no stat details).  They're somewhat similar, but both cool.

In a horror game I played in, we faced off against a bunch of zombies who were actually just the shells of bodies animated by a colony of insects.  Look in their eyes and all you see is bugs crawling around.  This was a modern game, they weren't a major threat.  Neat quirk; they recharged their batteries (so to speak) by listening to the sounds of radios and TV's turned to static.

In a 1st edition game, we dealt with a group of creatures called "Brain Ghouls".  They were a collective of ghoulish creatures that expanded by virtue of little sluggish things that would leap out from them and try to burrow into your brain.  They then could communicate telepathically with each other.  They were vulnerable to being disrupted at the center of the "network," the "hive brain" if you will.  They took over an entire city of over 20,000 people in that game.


----------



## Fajitas

maddman75 said:
			
		

> *something with an exoskeleton should have skeletons in it
> 
> *




Actually, something with an exoskeleton should, by definition, have skeletons *outside* it.

In other news, I've decided I'm now inordinately fond of the word "exoskeleton".  PC, next time I play Shara, can she have an exoskeleton?  Except, like, not in an undead way.


----------



## J'quan

Spectral, or Wraith Stirges.

Nothing like the gift that keeps on giving.

2-L bottle with a hyperdermic needle, draining you every which way.


----------



## Gideon

So every one here is just mean.  Someday in the future your DM is gonna hit you upside the head with some big undead thing and you should remember all of these ideas.

Like right now in a game i play in the undead are overrunning the world.  
But since my DM doesn't read here I think you should at some point show the ghouls at play.  Since they seem to be inteligent.  Maybe they are "playing" with their meal or something.

I will let the big scary monsters to more experienced minds than mine.  But i know that will piss of your goody goody charachters, and let the bold run straight into some devious trap.


----------



## Shamat

Here's a ghoulish idea:

	A giant that has thousands of arms protruding from it. These arms aren't grafted onto the giant, rather, there are ghouls inside of it. After a bunch of damage has been dealt, the ghouls burst out of the skin of the giant.

Idea #2: Elite Ghoulish infantry:
	This type of ghoul would be four armed and six legged. It would have ankheg skin grafted to its flesh for extra defense. Furthermore, it would be able to use its paralyzing ability as a breath attack. 

Idea #3: Lord of the Flies:
	A decaying ghoul that has flies crawling all over it. After it strikes, the flies travel onto the victim to lay its eggs, which could hatch into something appropriately nasty. It could also fly if all of the flies team up together to lift it off the ground.

I hope I've contributed something appropriate.


----------



## Siridar

Fajitas said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Actually, something with an exoskeleton should, by definition, have skeletons outside it.
> 
> *




An exoskeleton comprised of bones on the outside (duh) with ghoulish musculature. Hmmm. What if the exoskeleton could grapple with player and 'bearhug' them against the sharp bony protrusions of the exoskeleton while the ghoulish arms reach out and touch someone?


----------



## BBQ Man

How about a gigantic ooze made from ghoul heads.

just imagine, a huge moving wave of magically 'liquid' decaying groaning heads. (like a ball pit with air being forced in to increase it's liquid properties)

heheh

Edit: oooh, this could be considered 'recycling' truly dead ghoul parts, so one made purely out of hands could make sense as well, and since the above creature has no 'stomach' it can't ever be even remotely satisfied, thousands of starving ghoul heads sliding like an avalanche towards a party...  love it.  oh, and if this isn't dangerous enough, give it a banshee wail attack, or some other sound based attack as well.

Edit2: and this got me thinking of bodies of water made out of ghoul heads, and from there.. get this... a 'water elemental' but made from ghoul heads.  like the ooze in properties, but more sentient, and capable of rudimentary form of morphing, so it could walk, or slide, or seem as though its just a bunch of floating heads in a large pool of water.

need to make some stats....

BBQ Man


----------



## Piratecat

Fajitas said:
			
		

> *In other news, I've decided I'm now inordinately fond of the word "exoskeleton".  PC, next time I play Shara, can she have an exoskeleton?  Except, like, not in an undead way. *




Let me quote KidCthulhu.  "Oh, good. All Shara needs is a hard, bitter outer shell."

The rest of these posts are filled with good ideas. I'll need a good, fast, multi-legged attack beast.... and the ghoulhead slime is creepy!


----------



## Moleculo

What about a gargantuan undead that carries a shrine (read unhallowed) on its back. Maybe like an undead dragonturtle with a small temple as its shell, or an atlas like zombie that carries a large structure on its back. Perhaps a giant died and some unwitting cultists built a temple on top of it and it animated. heh far fetched i know! 

What about an undead pheonix or a gelantinous cube that was undead with ghouls inside that would strike at a captured foe. And for just strangeness, an awakened Dire Rat lich wizard!! hehe that would be the best.

jake


----------



## Piratecat

Wanna know who they're fighting right now? Here's a preview! Remember, standard rules about no spoilers in the story hour applies... but feel free to kibitz here!  From my notes....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Arballine  “The grinning death”

True ghoul/elf:   ranger 5, rogue 2, deepwoods sniper 10.  Alignment NE

HD: 20d12 (135 hp)

S         14         +2                        
D         26         +8
C         --         --
I         14         +2
W        16         +3
CH       20         +5


AC: 38 (+5 natural, +8 dex, +6 armor, +5 deflection, +4 haste)

*          Belongings:*  +4 mighty bone longbow of hunting (14 str) (doubles bonuses vs chosen enemy, +4 to hit, +6 to dmg); 100 +3 bone arrows; +5 flayed skin armor (+6 to AC); ring of deflection +5, cloak of the bat, 10 potions of haste

Fort: +4+3 = +7 (not affected)
Ref: +4+7+3=+14+8 = +22
Will: +1+3=+4+3 = +7

BAB: +10/+5

Longbow/ +3 arrows vs humans: +29/+24 or +27/+27/+22 (rapid shot), 1d8+13 (17-20/x5) +1d6

Longbow/+3 arrows vs other races: +25/+20 or +23/+23/+18(rapid shot), 1d8+9 (18-20/x5)

265’ range; +4 to hit (aim), +1 hit/dmg if within 30’, + true strike?, +1d6 sneak attack dmg?

Bite +12, 1d8+2; claw +12, 1d6+2

*          Special class abilities:*
2 favored enemies (humans +2, drow +1), keen arrows, +100’ range, concealment reduction 30%, magic weapon 1/day, safe poison use, take aim (+4), consistent aim 3/day (reroll miss), true strike 1/day; sneak attack +1d6; evasion

*          Feats:*
Track, Weapon focus (longbow) (+1 to hit), point blank shot (+1 to hit and dmg within 30’), far shot (range x1.5), rapid shot (extra shot per round at -2 on all), precise shot (no penalty for melee fire), favored enemy strike (+1d6 dmg to favored enemies), favored critical (doubled crit range vs favored enemies), improved critical (doubled crit range)

*          Skills:*
Balance +16, Climb +13 (Str), Craft (bowmaking) +6 (Int), Hide +37 (Dex), Intuit Direction +7 (Wis), Jump +10 (Str), Knowledge (nature) (Int) +6, Listen +25 (Wis), Move Silently +27 (Dex), Spot +27 (Wis), and Wilderness Lore +9 (Wis).

*    Undead special abilities:*

Paralysis (Ex): Those hit by a true ghoul's bite or claw attack must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC equals 10 plus half the creature's HD plus its Charisma bonus) or be paralyzed for 2d6+6 minutes. Elves are not immune to a true ghoul's paralysis. 

Grave-Rot (Su): The fangs, claws, and weapons of true ghouls are contaminated with the filth of the grave and may spread disease. At the end of combat, anyone who took damage from the true ghoul's claw, bite, or melee weapon attack must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 15) or contract grave-rot: Onset time 1 day, damage 1d6 hit points of damage each day until cured or the victim makes a successful Fortitude Save. Victims are allowed a new saving throw each day. Victims reduced to 0 hit points by grave-rot are transformed into true ghouls. 

Strength Damage (Su): A true ghoul with 6 or more HD also deals 1 point of temporary Strength damage to a living foe. A creature reduced to Strength 0 by a true ghoul dies. 

Create Spawn (Su): In most cases, true ghouls devour those they kill. From time to time, however, the bodies of their humanoid victims lie where they fell. Slain victims who fail a Fortitude Saving Throw (DC 15) become normal ghouls, while those who succeed arise as true ghouls. If a true ghoul cleric is present, the victim receives a +4 bonus to the saving throw. Casting protection from evil on a body before the end of that time averts the transformation. 

Special Qualities: A true ghoul has all the special qualities of the base creature, plus darkvision with a range of 60 feet. They are resistant to physical blows and have the qualities of being undead. More powerful true ghouls also gain the ability to animate dead and summon shadows. 

Resistant to Blows (Ex): Physical attacks deal only half damage to true ghouls. Apply this effect before damage reduction. 

Undead: Immune to mind-influencing effects, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, and disease. Not subject to critical hits, subdual damage, ability damage, energy drain, or death from massive damage. 

Turn Resistance: True ghouls of up to 6 HD possess +2 turn resistance. True ghouls of 6-9 HD possess +3 turn resistance. True ghouls with 10 or more HD possess +4 turn resistance. 

Animate Dead (Su): A true ghoul with 8 or more HD can animate dead once per week. The total HD of skeletons or zombies created by a single use of this ability cannot exceed the true ghoul's HD. There is no limit to the amount of undead that the true ghoul can control through use of this ability. 

Summon Shadows (Su): A true ghoul with 10 or more HD can summon 1d3 shadows once per day. The shadows arrive in 1 round and serve for 10 rounds or until released.


----------



## Victim

What happened to the archer's base attack?  As far as I know, becoming undead wouldn't affect it, and from the classes it should be +16.  Also, as is, even hasted it couldn't launch the 5 arrows at Malachite.


----------



## Piratecat

Whoops! That should be 4 arrows. I'll change the story hour.

According to the template, the BAB gets nerfed down to that of undead: 1/2 hit dice. A shame, eh? But that's life.


----------



## DoctorB

Great stuff!
I like the idea of creatures that are group intelligences.  
What advantages would it give to have 100 ghouls who thought as one?  Imagine them moving in perfect unison.


----------



## Twinswords

why not use ghoul walls. Imagine a whole castle turning against the party. You could disguise them with mud?

Twinswords 
Two swords are better then one


----------



## Sir Osis of Liver

Hmm, i'm thinking i'll try a true ghoul, dire elephant. That aught to make an impact!


----------



## Urbanmech

*Icky things*

It is probably a good thing for your PC's that the true ghoul template nerfs the base attack or else the archer would be even more horrorific.  As for future beastie ideas try basing the creatures/conglomerations on other animals people are usually afraid of.  Spiders, scorpions, bats, snakes, sharks (tough to do with no water), slimy things (jellyfish, slugs, snails) etc.  Maybe something like the flail snail from fiend folio, but instead of flails it has ghoulish limbs or torsos for multiple attacks.


----------



## Crothian

A ghoulish giant flying jelly fish could be really cool, me thinks.


----------



## omedon

Piratecat,

Could you please tell us what issue of Dungeon "The Kingdom of the Ghouls" and the True Ghoul Template appears in.


----------



## Number47

This is a good thought. A man-sized ghoul conglomeration of diminutive or fine creatures. It looks like an ordinary ghoul until up close, when it attacks and splits, covering the victim in tiny little ghouls. They would be easy to kill, sure, but it might take some time to kill 100 of them! Meanwhile, they are working away trying to get those natural 20s to hit you and inflict 1 point of damage but forcing a save versus paralysis.

The only problem with this creature is justifying how they created ghouls so small. In the monster manual, there are no creatures of Diminutive or Fine size, I believe. Tiny creatures like sprites could work, but wouldn't be found in the Underdark.


----------



## Henry

Don't laugh, anyone! After all, for all we know there could be a ghoul monster appearing made up of six ghoulish ogres that morph into one stone-giant-sized ghoul. 

"Ghoul-formers! Merge to form Devastator!" 

Of course, you also have the option of a permanently berserked troop of Ghoul dwarves, kept chained up until live flesh appears, and the Ghoul-dwarf berserkers are released to go nuts on the party.


----------



## Piratecat

Aaaah. Now Henry, you've hit the target.  That's the kind of idea that scares the bejeezus out of PCs.  You can't use wacky monsters all the time; if you do, they stop being scary and they start being silly. But using normal creatures in new and frightening ways... that's fun!


----------



## CRGreathouse

Number47 said:
			
		

> *In the monster manual, there are no creatures of Diminutive or Fine size, I believe.*




Bat and Toad come to mind. 

The only mechanical problem is the save DCs - since they're HD based, in part, the itty-bitty critters would have DCs around 11, making auto-saves all too easy.  Does PC use the variant rule "saves fail on natural 1s"?


----------



## J'quan

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Whoops! That should be 4 arrows. I'll change the story hour.
> 
> According to the template, the BAB gets nerfed down to that of undead: 1/2 hit dice. A shame, eh? But that's life. *




Well, not exactly *life*... But definately a cool character.  I can just see the angst builtin to her Elven nature, experiencing slow advancement through her professions; everyone knows Elves are best as wizards


----------



## kaboom

How about the troop carrier, a dire elephant ghoul that shoots bird ghouls out of it trunk?


----------



## Darklone

*Hmm*

If you guys look for a ghoul template, Kenzer published one for Kalamar in the Harvest of Darkness modules... Like it. Or was it a WIGHT template?

Huhuhuhu... Pkitty, now you did it with ghouls, what about wights next?


----------



## Bronz Dragon

Twinswords said:
			
		

> *why not use ghoul walls. Imagine a whole castle turning against the party. You could disguise them with mud?*




Naw...  just pull a cheap Power Rangers takeoff..

"Look, it's the ganGreen Ranger!"

"Form the Ghoulzhord" *_squish_* *_splorge_* *_guck_*

*clumsy fighting in cheap plastic suits ensues*

P.S. Sorry Henry, I hadn't read as far along as your post when I wrote this!


----------



## Kamard

kaboom said:
			
		

> *How about the troop carrier, a dire elephant ghoul that shoots bird ghouls out of it trunk? *




I.....must.....resist.....urge.....to....kill.....

must resist.... so hard....

*twitch twitch*


----------



## Grim

How about Ghoulish Monks? They can run fast, hit hard, and to boot, they can Stun AND Paralyse! And when you kill them, you dont get treasure, because Monks dont use armor and weapons!


----------



## LightPhoenix

Well, what leaped to mind is one of the boss creatures in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night - it's basically a giant ball of zombies, with a controlling entity thing in the middle.  The zombies protect the center and often fall in droves to attack you.  The combat takes place in a pit of dead bodies.

Another good idea might be a larger version of Ghouleax - something Huge in size would be pretty scary, especially with levels.  After all, if they can do it with Ghouleax, why not others.

Speaking of, is there any chance we could see Ghouleax/Aleax's supposed stats?  Please no spoilers though, I wanna be a spoiler virgin when I read about Ghouleax. 

LightPhoenix


----------



## BBQ Man

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Raevynn has shifted into dire bat form, and flies forward near the ceiling. She’s at a high enough angle to be able to “see” over the shields with her blindsight. She realizes that there’s some eighty more undead back there, along with a ghoulish flying dwarf and some sort of horrible bone construct that looks like a ballista with legs. Raevynn flies back towards the Defenders, a plan forming in her head. *






Hehehe

I hope it lasted for more than a round though.

nice shields, those I will have to borrow, I have just been using a 'mystical gem' shoved into the cranium of the undead to do the same, but I like the shields, organic type quality, conjures images of fields of fungi that they are made from, definate target for pcs(ie side adventure)  and also alows for more tactics to be brought into play.


BBQ Man


----------



## Velenne

Disclaimer:  I wanted to post this here where your PC's wouldn't see.  I'm not sure how much of it you would want them to know. ;}

Pkitty I've got a question for ya:

I've been reading the Dungeoncraft articles over the last few months from Dragon mag.  I'm at school right now so I don't have them with me, but one of the guidelines to DM'ing that I thought was very insightful was: Don't create plot, create situations and let the PC's develop the plot.  

Would you say this is something that you do when preparing for your games?  How far in advance do you plan your story arc?  I would imagine not far seeing as how those darn PC's tend to fiddle everything up. 

IMC, I always kept the ultimate goal of the story in mind and let the PC's find their own way of getting there.  I gave them options they essentially chose from, but I had a plot device that helped me do that (they were looking for pieces of the an artifact).  Your game seems to be a little more free-form than that and it's a style I'd like to try now that the green is gone from behind my DM ears.


----------



## Piratecat

BBQ Man, the problem with gems is that they're sort of a rules-breaking deux ex machina that prevents the cleric players from doing what they do best. That's why I'm using clerical bolstering and good tactics; no additional deux ex machina involved, and beatable by clever players!  

Also, thank you so much for the skeletal siege engine idea. Yoink!

Velenne, I plan general plots months or even years ahead, subject to change. I plan specific games 1-2 sessions ahead, though.  Usually I adlib everything, after knowing who is doing what in the world, and how they'd react to a given situation. I never map anything out in advance if I can possibly help it.

That Dungeoncraft advice is great. I follow his other advice: never do more work than you have to! *grin*


----------



## Anabstercorian

*Might I recommend the Gemini technique?*

Two high level Fighter5/DevotedDefender10's who declare each other to be their charge at the beginning of combat will simply dumbfound your party, especially if they have Deathward up.  They'll be able to smack down your adventurers and laugh about it afterwards.


----------



## Velenne

I've had this one cooked up for awhile but it used the lich template instead of true ghoul.  

Take yourself a typical Androsphinx.  Good magical beasts that cast cleric spells and can do roars that are normally only effective if they don't happen to have any allies around.

Now, add your true ghoul template to it and surround him with some undead associates.  Voila: His associats are immune to his fear roar, his paralyzation roar, and his ability damage roar. 

But for true rat bastardness, advance your evil ghoul androsphinx to 22 HD.  He now casts as an 11th level cleric (normal andros are 12 HD and cast as 6th level clerics.  12/2 = 6.  22/2 = 11.  just explaining my logic although I don't know if it actually works that way.  Besides, you're the DM it can work any way you damn well want it to!) 

The point is, since he has access to the Protection domain, he can now cast Antimagic Field on himself after he's done roaring, bolstering his undead buddies and other nastiness, then walk into melee.   Since he's 22 HD, he's got a lot going for him.  
1.) Advanced a size category, lots of bonuses there (namely his str is now base 33) 
2.)Magical beasts have Fighter BAB, so he starts at +22 to hit.  
3.)A huge true ghoul (using this link you provided earlier ) does 2d6 base damage with his claws, +11 from his strength.
4.) 22d12 + 132 Hit points 
5.) 10' reach
6.) Lots more feats to do nasty things with when he goes melee (improved disarm anyone? improved grab?)
7.) IMC, I would increase the DC of his roars because of his advancement.  I was never able to decide what that should be, but enough to be at least some worry to characters worthy of facing him. 

This also exploits the fact that the Defenders don't have any monks (that I'm aware of) and seem to pretty dependant on their spells and magic items.  Tomtom might be a problem if you play with the "Psionics are different" house rule, because magical beast don't get better Will saves.  

I would put his CR around 17 or so.

There are many other advantages which I can get into if you like the idea.  I've got his full info (with some differences because, like I said, he's a lich in my version)


----------



## Jairami

Generally it's 10+Half HD+Chr Mod.

Ooops...  Did I say that?  Here?  Oh my....


----------



## Hammerhead

Anapster... are you insane? You do realize that this is the Defenders of Daybreak, right? I don't think that any two 15th level characters (no special races like Trillith, OC) could have a chance of beating a party with multiple chain lightnings, orbs, charm spells, destructions, mass heals, flame strikes, etc.

Ghoul monks might be a problem b/c ghouls are CE. Besides, how is no treasure a plus?

The fungus-shields gave me another idea. Could a variety of deadly fungi cling to a ghoul, like one of those fish that cleans shark's teeth, in a symbiotic relationship? Since ghouls are undead, thus immune to poison, some kind of poison producing thing could be deadly.

Maybe ghouls with monster parts grafted on? Like some hideous tentacle or crushing claw?

Since ghouls don't breathe, aqua ghouls? Like kuotoans (common in the underdark). Since adventurers have to waste lots of spells to function underwater, this could be a major advantage.

My idea fountain is drained, as of now.


----------



## Jairami

Dragon Magazine actually had a suggested combination of underground undead covered in yellow mold.  And more fun yet, you can have the entire cavern full of it.  The tunnel walls, the cavern it opens up to..  Fun stuff.


----------



## Piratecat

Hammerhead, the Defenders are actually far less combat optimized than most groups of their level should be. You'll like how they finish off these ghouls, though.  

I am so stealing the mold/fungus idea.


----------



## DoctorB

How about a place where all of the inhabitants were neutral or good but have been made undead without realizing they are undead.  

The thing that makes it fun is you have people working the fields, selling (rotten or mummified) bread, gossiping with each other, etc.  They would even beg for their lives if threatened.  Could be an interesting role-playing experience.  What if it could be proven to them they are undead?

The leader of the place might be evil, or he/she might have been swept up in the same force that converted the others.

To let the people find rest in death, the party would have to reverse the magic that made it possible (or just kill them all I guess).  Maybe a powerful Lich did this deliberately, or even better it was a side-effect of another spell.


----------



## Hammerhead

Yeah, I know the defenders aren't combat optimized; but they are still high level, well equipped, and most important, smart. Even a powerful pair like twin DDs would be no match for what the Defenders pack.


----------



## (Psi)SeveredHead

I was under the impression that PirateCat uses transparency rules.


----------



## Piratecat

Transparency rules? I don't understand!

Velenne, cool monster; remember, no con bonus on hit points for undead!  

DrB, that's an interesting idea. I saw it done once beautifully, only instead of undead the villagers were self-aware illusions. Caule them to disbelieve in themselves, and they die!   A little holodecky, but still cool.


----------



## Scarab

Have you had a look at the Unfailing prestige class in "Hollowfaust: City of Necromancers?"

Basically, these guys get DR5 immunity to criticals, and the Undying ability, that basically doubles their hit points. When they go below 0 hp, they enter a zombielike state and keep on fighting. They still die at -10, but their bodies keep on fighting until you reduce them to -(maximum hp)... A guy with 100hp wouldn't give up and keep still until he's at -100hp.

This makes a neat image: the guys you just wasted rise up again and keep on fighting. And they don't even count as undead.

...and the book also has the Bonewrack Dragon. 20d10 breath weapon, anyone? And Frightful Presence with DC33 to boot.


----------



## (Psi)SeveredHead

Transparency: In the PsiHnd, this is the default rule. Psionics are treated just like a type of magic. So psionic powers are subject to spell resistance, dispel magic and so forth.

If you use Psionics are Difference, psionics become more flavorful, but probably a little less balanced.

PS Is Tom-Tom's psicrystal a crysmal psicrystal? (If you don't know know what this is, see the Mind's Eye feature at WotC)

PPS Are you ever going to post the Master of Space and Time's stats?


----------



## Piratecat

Oh, right. Yes, I treat psionics as affecting the standard magical weave, only you're doing it directly with your mind: a more "pure" method, if you ask the psions.  I'm not using the "psionics are different" rule.

TomTom's psicrystal "Tee" is a normal one. It's observant, iirc.

I have to convert TMOSAT. I don't have any 3e stats on him!


----------



## Little_Buddha

2E version would be fine - I _love_ TMOSAT!


----------



## (Psi)SeveredHead

D'oh! I meant his crystal capacitor.


----------



## Jeremy

When it comes to creeping out your players (except for Agar) nothing beats tentacles.  

Here's a nasty idea for ya that should be a wonderful scene.  Around a bend the Defenders come upon 5-12 of the sickly rotting corpses they have been slugging through.  The ghouls turn and run, loping along using arms as much as hands, dropping little bits of flesh crawling with maggots behind.

Upon catching up to them, through cautious advance or simply chasing them down, one of them licks a swollen black tongue over it's pitted lips as it heaves aside a boulder/hatch/door sealing off a black pit.  Coming screaming out of this pit are a hideous swarm (11-20) of small creatures that on first glance are bats from some terrible nightmare.

Actually they are distorted human heads with stretched, rotting flesh and writhing tentacles hanging from them, they fly on bat wings causing the disembodied heads to bob up and down as they pour out, their jaws distended letting out horrible shrieks from their glowing, smoking green maws.

Vargouille's aren't powerful, with 5 hp each (I give them 9) but they are creepy, epecially to those who tend to use their imaginations to picture creatures rather than Monster Manual images.  As undead, any surviving ghouls will be unaffected by their shriek, and if you want it to be more challenging or intimidating you can have undead pour out the hole too, maybe slavering undead that are gnawed upon that were locked away because they wouldn't stop feeding on each other.  They stagger out with half eaten arms, faces, etc amidst the screaming vargouilles.

DC 12 Fort saves are absolutely pathetic, but with 11-20 of them, you may have a few people turning up 1's.  The vargouilles only do 1d4 damage, so it's more likely to scare than prove lethal, and they are likely to be dropped in very short order.  But a flood of bats is scary enough, much less underground and when they have warped screaming human heads with writhing tentacles attached to them.

Hopefully you'll catch 2 or 3 of the defender's paralyzed by them which will allow a little more intimate battle by just a few of the defenders against a little swarm of weak creatures.

In my game everyone's got huge bags of dice, so I'd just have them figure out what they need to fail a DC 12 fort save and have them roll a handful of d20's scanning for that number.  (One player would be able to roll all 20 saves at once.    You can never have too many dice.)


----------



## Piratecat

That's just plain fun! Using low-level monsters to scare high-level PCs... 

Another option is including a vampire in the swarm of bats, and give him the ability to slam for negative levels despite being in bat form. A crowd of bats comes out and Wham! Velendo is down 2 levels.  And no one can see because of the bats, and the corridor is tiny....  and they just keep fluttering and Wham! There got another two levels....


----------



## Jeremy

<Mr. Burnes stretched smile and tented fingers>

Yes....


----------



## Grim

ohh! that is almost crossing the limit.

Almost...

but not quite enough to make it pure evil, just really mean and really funny.

Along with the tentical idea, how about a funky undead druid who uses a special version of entangle that causes nasty, slimy, ghoulish, paralysing versions of vines and plants to sprout out of the underdark tunnel and stop people. or possibly a sorcerer and evards black tenticals that paralyse instead of sudualize. See its ok because although undead are mindless, they are not wisdomless and charisma-less.

{evil scary man sits in chair, gets dirt out of fingers with bloody daggar, stares intently at pulsating human heart on table}
"your mine now. Welcome... to the horror."


----------



## Westwind

*More fun with horror*

Ahh, the joys of DMing the Underdark....

Depending on the resources of the villians the Defenders of the Daybreak are facing, some of these might not make sense in terms of what they run into, but.....

What they see: Narrow corridor to force a tight marching order.  The roof of the corridor is covered in roots (or, as an alternative, stone).  Players continue along until they realize they`re one short.  No noise, no warning, nothing.

What happened:  The last person in the marching order passed under an Assassin Vine (eqv.) trap, which promptly used its surprise action to grapple the player and pull them up through its roots (or the illusionary 5x5 section of the ceiling).  You might want to give someone a listen check, but the poor victim is gagged and on the other side of an ancient and thick tree, so the DC would be pretty high.
-------
What they see:  Water, water, and more water.

What happened: Great thing about undead is tons of various environmental effects don't affect them.  A wall separating an underground city and an underground river collapsed after a few hundred years of erosion.  Players now have to spend spell slots on surival spells rather than utility spells, making them slightly weaker vs. the undead (bloated...the visual possibilities here are endless) denzins, who have (of course) adapted to their environment through foul and unnatural magics.  I think there's a spell called Dark Water in Relics and Rituals.  I used that to great effect when some of my players decided to Spider Climb on a flying Shadow Dragon and he decided to nose-dive a lake. (Str check, Str check, Swim check-don't forget your new Str...heh).
--------
What they see: A group of Zombies which, somehow, resist all their turning attempts.

What happened: Alas, these aren't Zombies, just skin puppets inhabited by fiendish creatures of Tiny-esque size.  Their lack of coordination in the "skin balloon" is what leads to the staggering gait of the Zombie.  Strike one in melee and "Hey, look!  It`s a gas spore!" and "Hey, look!  It's a hive of dire wasps/rot grubs/whatever!"
--------
Along more role-playing lines, it's always interesting to see what players will do if they find themselves in dire straits.  A small enclave of drows, a "good" undead, slave traders, etc.  Anything living in the White Kingdom would be afraid of the ghouls.  But are the Defenders willing to make alliances with those who might have more knowledge even if it means consorting with unsavory types?  Note: This is an adventure in role-playing, not a screw-the-paladins tactic.  I love well-played paladins and think one could make it through is soul intact.  What price are those dwarves willing to pay for victory?
--------

Well, more oddly constructed monsters to come.  My dnd-deprived brain needed something like this.


----------



## Piratecat

This is fun. Depending on where they go, they may end up meeting a race of blind, albino, cannibal halflings who tend to develop psionic powers. Wonderful possibilities there!

Two more games or so, and they'll head down for real. I can't wait.


----------



## Black Omega

Players in my d20 Rokugan game...quit reading!
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Wow, some great ideas in this thread I might just borrow now that my Rokugan game is delving more into the undead.    Ghoul monks sound just plain nasty and I've been wanting to work in some monks...

Another idea that just came to mind while reading all the posts on exoskeletons...also a bit inspired by Heroic Trio. A special type of ghoul that if it paralyses you, it can take a full action the next round to flow over your body and basically take control physically.  I suppose damage would be done equally to the ghoul and the victim.  If the victim is hit with remove paralysis, the victim can try to break free by a grapple check.   Not impossibly tough to stop but some groups will have problems with trying to stop the ghouls witout killing the person inside.


----------



## Jeremy

Rokugan players stay away from this one too.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
There is a spell I remember in which you cast it on a body of liquid, big or small, and it makes a copy of your target (proportionate to the size of the body of liquid---i.e. mug of ale makes a really small replica) that attacks your target.  If it touches him, it flows over him and coats him beginning to drown him.  And you have to beat on it (and consequently the target) to free him.

I'm positive I've seen it in 3e rules somewhere, so it might give you a good dynamic to work with.


----------



## Velenne

*Feel like killing some of your players?*

Ok ok, so you folks weren't too keen on my advanced sphinx?  Here's another one from my bag o' tricks:

Ghoul (in this case) Grimlock Paladin 10'ish/Blackguard 10'ish with an advanced Basilisk mount.  This is an amalgam of a Dragon article and the first paladin smackdown from the much-lauded Sultans of Smack  thread with a few new twists.

If you can manage surpise and/or winning init, I can guarentee you'll have at least 1 dead or stone PC before it's all over. ;p

Doesn't need many magic items to pull of and if the basilisk goes down too fast, the grimlock can deeper darkness (better hope none of the pc's have Daylight memorized just cuz) and either Heal Mount or go to town with a variety of other options.

If you like the idea and think you might want to use it, I can post the full writeup with my intended strategy.   Just happens to be underground too.


----------



## Piratecat

That'd be cool to see, just on general principle!

How about ghoulish monks infested with rot grubs?  They wriggle into the PCs when the monk hits them....


----------



## tsadkiel

I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this, but I've got an Aleax theory, and wanted to post it somewhere PC's players wouldn't see it, just in case I might be right.  Piratecat, feel free to smite me if this should be somewhere else.

My guess is that Ghouleax is an Eletum (from Mythic Races.)  They reproduce by placing a specially charged shard of their own bone in the skeleton of a deceased humanoid - assuming the White Kingdom had an Eletum handy, all they'd have to do is find the right skeleton, and let the "child" know who the body once belonged to, and Bob's your uncle - a sentient, free willed and good-aligned undead who can truthfully say that he's Aleax.  The soul of the original saint, of course, is safely lodged in the sword.

There would only be a minimum of divination-fogging magic needed in order to sow confusion, and since Ghouleax is actually a nice guy (and could be a paladin, for that matter), Aeos has a reason for wanting the holy text rewritten to soften the stance on this particular undead.


----------



## Jeremy

More creepy crawly undead constructs in the wake of the ballista...

The Meat Wagon!

It rumbles along covered in yellow mold collecting corpses of both enemies and allies...  It can return the corpses for reanimation of possess enough magical juice to spit out conglomerate aberration ghouls from the pieces it gathers.  Or it can fling corpses doing catapult damage + disease.

It's fetid innards and grisly cargo cause it to forever be enshrouded in a cloud of grave rot disease that radiates out 30' (60 ft downwind, 15 ft upwind).

Check it out.  

Undead Meat Wagon


----------



## Grim

i'm thinking of something really creepy, and i think I hit on it... 
you know how undead dont have inteligence scores...
well they do have charisma.

MWWAHAHAHAHAH

What if there was a reasonably high level, female undead bard. She sings death chants. Really well. AND can do nasty things to the party with her songs and spells. Charm... facinate... the possiblitys are endless. AND with the right skills and feats, she doesn't even need to do that, with her bluff, diplomacy, and other charisma based skills off the charts with something like +30 or 40...

the really devious thing would be for her to facinate the entire party, and have her be like those poison gas filled mooks, but have the gas be something invisible, or rather harmless. THat way, everyone is entranced by her song, and they dont really notice when their teammates start coughing up their lungs and turning inside out because the DC to notice is really high...

or to use the suggestion bard skill to make a party member rebel, or distrust, or decide that the map he made is wrong and burn it, or that the powerful artifact/important document they have is really worth smashing into little bits.

another thing would to allow the bard's inspire greatness or inspire courage ability add major turn ressistance to her allies.

bardic knowledge could be useful to... if the bard had an inteligence score.

or they could just start busting out sixth level bard spells, like mass haste, greater dispelling, or veil (oohh... that last one is nasty. Send a whole bunch of medusas at them, illusionarilly disguised as ghouls that arnt wanting to be turned. When they get close enough and start entering melee... BOOM! the veil over those 8 "ghouls" you are fighting is gone... please make eight fortitude saves (DC 15)... one is bound to fail. Hey... now its time for the mage to waste valuable spell slots on stone to flesh... oops, now he doesnt have firepower anymore... oops...


OR is that to evil?


----------



## Piratecat

tsadkiel said:
			
		

> *
> My guess is that Ghouleax is an Eletum (from Mythic Races.)  *




Nope - but you are right in one sense. I was looking at the picture of the eletum when the idea of bringing him back occurred to me!

As for the undead bard, well, stay tuned and grab some popcorn. That's been planned for some time.


----------



## Ancalagon

I'm not too keen on the idea of undead ghoul monks... I see "monkism" as being a result of a clear and focused mind... the eternal hunger for flesh would kind of mess with that right?  They might be different from the other ghouls.

Af for low level monsters to scare the party, how about cave fishers (ghoulish of course).  They shouldn't be too hard to convert from 2nd ed and beef up.  Yanking a few party members upward can play havoc with tactics... I'm sure the defenders would solve the problem quickly, but it could be a real anoyance if they are under severe attack.

Ancalagon


----------



## (Psi)SeveredHead

_Depending on where they go, they may end up meeting a race of blind, albino, cannibal halflings who tend to develop psionic powers. Wonderful possibilities there!_

Have you ever played Dark Sun? Their halflings are cannibal psions.


----------



## gamecat

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> *Depending on where they go, they may end up meeting a race of blind, albino, cannibal halflings who tend to develop psionic powers. Wonderful possibilities there!
> 
> Have you ever played Dark Sun? Their halflings are cannibal psions. *




Isn't _everything_ a cannibal psion in Dark Sun?


----------



## justinsluder

PC, I have a truly terrifying idea:  True Ghoul Thorciasid.

I also have something more terrifying:  the thing that made the Thorciasid a True Ghoul.

Just some ideas for when the Defenders go Epic.

- Justin Sluder


----------



## The Forsaken One

*If you need challenges.... Race and PrC finalised and approved by my DM.*

This is what I cooked up today and am Gonna play tomorrow as a test in our new RL D&D game. 
We start at level 15 and this is the race I'm gonna use and the PrC, both made today by myself and they are NASTY.

I'm gonna play Ftr 6/ Sent 5 (+4ECL For Night Elf)

The Night Elf is my personal interpretation and conversion from the Warcraft 3 race to a playable D&D 3rd race. We determenined it at +4. Actually +3 but +4 due to the Sorc specials who are very powerfull IMO. Same as the level 10 ability of the PrC.

Night Elves - Female (note females are the warriors of the race)

These shadowy, immortal beings were the first to study magic and let it loose throughout the world nearly ten thousand years ago. The Night Elves' reckless use of magic drew another ancient race only known as the Phaerimm into the world and led to a catastrophic war between the two titanic races. The Night Elves barely managed to banish the Pharimm from their kingdom, but their wondrous homeland was shattered and drowned by the sea. Ever since, the Night Elves refused to use magic for fear that these dreaded abomenations would return. The Night Elves closed themselves off from the rest of the world and remained hidden atop their holy mountain of Hyjal for many thousands of years. As a race, Night Elves are typically honorable but very cunning, but they are very distrusting of the 'lesser races' of the world. They are nocturnal by nature and their shadowy powers often elicit the same distrust that they have for their mortal neighbors. 

Night Elf females worship Elene, the moon goddes as their patron deity. Elene is the Torillian goddess Selune but her secret moonworshipping people are since recently being influenced by Shar, the goddess of secrets and she hasn’t been effective in creating a cult of her own worshippers amongst these aincient and powerfull Elves…. yet. Shar seeks to become the patron deity of these ancient and powerfull people and have them turn to Arcane magic once again so they can use their magical herritage to its full extent and Shar is planning on using these potential immensly powerfull sorceresses as her own elite army.

-4 Str + +6 dex -2 con +0 int +2 wis +2 cha

AL: Chaotic Neutral

Night elf speed = 50 ft

+2 racial to listen, move silently and wilderness lore checks

At night Night Elves recieve a +4 bonus to hide, Spot and search checks

Night elves recieve a racial +2 dodgebonus to all creatures, this increases to +4 at night

Night Elves receive a +2 Bonus to reflex and Willsaves

Night Elves have 120 ft darkvision

Shadow Meld (su): at night female shadow elves that reamain immobile count as invisible units, this is a unique ability for only the females of the race.

Nondetection (su): Night Elves are under effect of a continuous non detection ability and it has a caster level of a wizard equal to its class level

Trackless step: Night Elves leave no traces in natural enviroment en can't be tracked.

Night Elves have spellresistance of 11 + classlevel

Light blindness: Sudden exposure to bright light (such as a sunlight or daylight spell) blinds the Night elf for 1 round. In addition, Night Elves suffer a -1 circumstance penalty to attack rolles, saves and checks while operating in bight light.

Night elf females are proficient with anytime of bow (not crossbows) and the Sivor, night elves detest the use of melee weapons and gain -1 penalty when using melee weapons. (Sivor: Thrown weapon, range 40ft, damage 1d8 (S) (Kind of chakram but different ), special: It can bounce 1d4 times after hitting anything determined by the DM on a failed attack roll. A very interesting weapon and yes it can bounce off walls, the ground, the ceiling... (Use at your own risk))

A Night elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for the door.

Immunity to magic sleep spells and effects. 

Cold resistance: By living in "The North" and the high ice for thousands of years the Nightelves have grown resistant to cold and so they ignore the 5 five damage of the cold subtype.

Special: The Night Elves have refused to use magic for fear that the Phaerimm would return, the Night Elves are forbidden to practise the Art and use arcane magic although very many Night Elves are born with a very strong link with the Weave and because of this they would make great sorcerers but their law forbids them and for thousands of years no Night Elf has practised the Art and tried to devellop their gift out of fear and custom. (Night Elf sorcerors have +1 to their save DC and +1 caster level als racial bonus)

Favored class: Druid for Males (have way other stats and much less abilities) and fighter for females. Sorceror for both but only renegades use it and they will be hunted by Sentinels till killed.

Languages: Night Elves speak Hyjallan and draconic

SPECIAL NOTE: At night means natural darkness, magical darkness does NOT grant special abilities with the "at night" description!






The Sentinel - Prestige Class

Sentinels are the elite of the Night Elf army and they are the ones entrusted with safeguarding the secret of the existance of their race and the location of their homeland. Sentinels are also called upon when renegade Night Elves have fled their homeland, most of the times because they were discovered to be practising the forbidden Art and devellopping their innate magical abilities. The use of Arcane magic and to reveal themselves to the outside world are 2 things that are forbidden and stand central in the Night Elf society. The revealing of the location of their homeland is something all Night Elves fear for and have striven to keep it a secret and they have succeeded for thousands of your under the protection of the Sentinels.

requirements:
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Feats: Point blank Shot, Weapon Focus (any bow or thrown weapon), Dodge, Track, leadership, Sharp Shooting, Precise Shot.
Skills: Climb 4 ranks, Spot 2 ranks, Hide 2 ranks
Special: Must be Female Night Elf, have befriended a Hippogriff and tracked down a person who discovered Hyjal or a renegade nightelf.

Hit die: d8

Proficiency: A Sentinel is proficient with all bows and crossbows and with the Sivor and with any type of armor and shields.

(Sivor: Thrown weapon, range 40ft, damage 1d8 19-20 x2 (S) (Kind of chakram but different ), special: It can bounce 1d4 times after hitting anything determined by the DM on a failed attack roll. A very interesting weapon and yes it can bounce off walls, the ground, the ceiling... (Use at your own risk))

Class Skills: Hide (dex), Move Silently (dex), Wilderness Lore (wis), Spot (Wis), Search (Int), Listen (wis), Knowledge(nature) (int), Balance (dex), Craft(bowmaking) (int), Climb (Str), Intuit Direction (Wis), Jump (str), ride (dex).

Skillpoints at each level: 4 + int modifier


Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special

1st	+1	+0	+2	+0	Keen arrows, Range increment Bonus
2nd	+2	+0	+3	+0	Concealment Reduction 10%, Projectile Improved Critical
3rd	+3	+1	+3	+1	Evasion 10%
4th	+4	+1	+4	+1	Moon Sivor, Uncanny Dodge
5th	+5	+1	+4	+1	Concealment Reduction 20%
6th	+6	+2	+5	+2	Evasion 15%, Call Hippogriff, Mounted Archery
7th	+7	+2	+5	+2	Projectile Improved Critical
8th	+8	+2	+6	+2	Concealment reduction 30%
9th	+9	+3	+6	+3	Evasion 20%
10th	+10	+3	+7	+3	Fury of Elune


Keen Arrows (ex): At 1st level, all projectiles and Sivors the Sentinel fires behae as if they were keen weapons in adition to any other properties they might posess. Thus, a normal arrow fired by a Sentinel has a threat range of 19-20 instead of 20. This effect does not stack with any other keen effect.

Range Increment Bonus (ex): With each level the Sentinel gains, the range increments of her projectile weapons or Sivors increase by 10 feet (added after multipliers). Thus, a 10th level Sentinel who has the Far Shot feat would have a 280-foot range increment with a heavy crossbow (120 feet x 1.5 +100 feet).

Concealment Reduction (ex): When the Sentinel reaches 2nd level, her miss chance against opponents with concealment drops by 10%. Thus she has a miss chance of 10% rather then 20% against an opponent with one-half concealment. her miss chance drops by an additional 10% at 5th and 8th level. This ability never reduces her miss chance against any opponent below 0%.

Projectile Improved Critical (ex): When the Sentinel reaches 2nd level, the critical damage multiplier of all her projectile or Sivors incease by +1. Thus, an arrow that normally deals x3 on a critical hit instead does x4 damage in her hands. When she reaches 8th level, these critical multiplayers increase by an additional +1.

Uncanny Dodge: At 4th level and above, she retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) if caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. 

Evasion: At third level the Sentinel has become able to bring her dexterity and dodge ability to a new level. Her increadible speed and agility allow her a chance to evade blows and projectiles aimed at her, this starts at level 3 with 10% and increased with a aditional 5% at 6th and 9th level.

Moon Sivor: For every Sivor thrown that hits a target, the Sentinel can have it bounce to a second target within 15 feet of the first target. The second attacks requires a new attack roll although at a -5 penalty.

Call Hippogriff: At 6th level the Sentinel can call upon its befriended Hippogriff and ask for its service as her steed. If this succeeds depends upon the DM and might take a quest to convince to Hippogriff to accompany his friend for the rest of its life (This Hippogriff Functions as a steed in the same way a steed of a Skymage from Lords of Darkness does for sharing of saves etc.)

Mounted Archery: If the Sentinel succeeds in gaining the hippogriff as her steed she automatically gains the mounted archery feat even if she doesn't meet its prequisites.

Fury of Elune: When a Sentinel reaches 10th level she has become as swift as the night and blessed by her goddes with the speed of the moonlight that shines eternally upon Hyjal. The Sentinel gains extra attacks per +4 BAB instead of +5.


----------



## MavrickWeirdo

*My apolgies*



			
				Piratecat said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Nope - but you are right in one sense. I was looking at the picture of the eletum when the idea of bringing him back occurred to me!
> 
> As for the undead bard, well, stay tuned and grab some popcorn. That's been planned for some time.   *




The trouble with undead bards is they don't write music.



Instead they de-compose.



someone had to say it.


----------



## RingXero

*icky things part I-IV*

Formerly known as BBQ Man, until I can get back into my old account, I will use this old one.
The following is a compiled and resorted list of five posts I made in rapid succession, it looks better this way.

ok, ideas pour forth, sorry that they are just ideas and not fully statted creatures.

1.  How about small ghoulish undead slimy leeches.

I don't have the stats worked up on these things yet, but they should basically be the easiest things to 'kill', as they are only 1/2 inch to and inch long, but come in mass quantities. Give them the ability to suck Con, but only if more than 4 or 5 'grab on', and only after a few rounds, otherwise they do no damage. They should have a form of topical numbing slime on them, so the PCs can't feal the individual leeches.  You could have them explode in-mass (40 or so) from large mushrooms/fungi, or used as 'traps', or living in water that the PCs have to wade through.

I like the bursting mushroom caps the best though. Nothin' like leech land mines to freak out a party.  I definately wouldn't have the PCs find out immediately that they are covered in leaches. they are hard to notice.

Let's say that a medium sized mushroom cap explodes near them, make them think that they are only covered in bits of mushroom cap, the leaches shouldn;t be any larger than an inch each, so they won't cause much notice initially, have a group of ghouls waiting in ambush when the PCs strip down to get rid of all the leaches (most likely they will find a better solution to get rid of them though)


2.  The usage of an alarm system.

Ever play Black & White? Every time a villager died, a creepy voice whispered "Deeeeaaaaatttthhhh", this turned out to be so creepy, and most people didn't know what caused it, that a patch was put out that removed that 'feature'.

How about undead children heads as a form of alarm system then, possibly magically 'preserved' so no decay happens, possibly not, the heads placed in the tunnels and caverns, the eyes normally closed, but when they detect intruders the heads rotate to face the intruders, the eyes open... and a childs' mouth whispers "Deeeeaaaaatttthhhh" the sound magically carrying/reverberating through the tunnels.
Up to you on the powers of the magical alarm system, what it can and cannot detect, 'darkvision' definately, detect invisible, maybe tremor sense?

I could see though ghoulish child heads, just make sure that you keep the "heads turning/eyes opening" thing, so that the PCs can gaze upon milky white cataract type orbs, with maybe carrion grubs crawling through and around the skin.

I think the non decaying version is the sicker of the two options, and I'd recommend detailing the visual of seeing the eyes open, and what the eyes look like/what emotion they seem to carry... (hatred?, pity? or fear? or worse yet, "please make the pain end mommy?")


3.  Let's not forget the children...

Children, true ghouls, with illusions to make them seam not-undead, carrying small stuffed animals into battle.... 

AND/OR

Someone mentioned using an undead Bard, and PirateCat, you seem to have implied that you are already using one. How about using one like this?

Undead Bard PC commands a smallish group (around 40-50) of small children. Think evil pied piper. children age should be around 7-14, and 30% are still alive and under some controlling and delusion spells. The other 70% should be true ghouls in varying forms of decay with smallish group 'freshly dead' and looking somewhat still healthy. All should be singing various nursery rhymes in concert, this should give huge circumstantial bonuses to the Bards singing abilities as well.

They should all have some form of extremely magically strong, sticky, contact poison on their hands and mouths, like they have been into some chocolate or something (which is of course the going to cause them to die, if they weren't made into true ghouls before then, but the PCs don't know that right away). see part 4 on the 'poison'

The bard could think of itself as the 'mommy' and so could the children, just depends on how creapy you want to get.


4.  Back to the poison...

The substance is extemely sticky, not water soluable, isn't really a poison, it is a substance that reacts to air and living tissue to create a posion, so when the PCs get it on them, a neutralize poison spell will only get rid of 'that batch' and the sticky substance remains making more, a few rounds later and they are taking poison damage again.-- this is similar to the way onions make you cry, upon cutting two different chemicals that are normally seperated from each other inside the onion, mix, creating a vapor, this vapor then chemically reacts to your tears to form sulphuric acid. (or another kind of acid, my memory is somewhat sketchy on which one).
If you don't like the 'chemistry' angle, or can't make it believable as 'alchemy' then 'magic' should work.

You could have the poison/substance be a secretion of a larger aboleth type monster that is undead and the PCs come across it later, along with the 'nursery'... but that might be going too far, describing all the child ghouls clamoring around this huge monster eager for a lick off of its' slimy hide...

Or

A vapor that fills the tunnels causing the victims tears to become the poison. The vapor/gas could be odorless, invisible, or both, only registering on a 'detect magic' (if it is of magic origin). maybe it works on saliva instead? the poisons physical effect I will leave up to you, but the delivery method I think is rather interesting.





is this abit too sick?


--- more to come, but I think the direction here (see above posts) is more toward making the paladins (and others) really pissed off/sickened, trying to get them to lose their temper. The controlling forces of the 'white kingdom' should try and use their undead 'disgustingness' and lack of a repect for life, to full extent knowing that it may cause the heroes to do something brash and not fully thought through.


----------



## Macbrea

:: Ponders ::


Hmm, I wonder what the True Ghoul template would look like on top of the Mindflayer rogue 4 that I sent after my high level party.


True Ghoul Mindflayer Rogue 4


Quote: "Brains!....."


----------



## Piratecat

*Re: My apolgies*



			
				MavrickWeirdo said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Instead they de-compose.
> *




Ugggh. Nicely done!



> Hmm, I wonder what the True Ghoul template would look like on top of the Mindflayer rogue 4 that I sent after my high level party.




We'll find that out, too.  

Re Ring Xero's suggestions, I'll have to be careful. With this group, there is a fine line between encounters that inadvertently gross out the group with their inherent horror, and encounters that are specifically designed to play on the players' emotions. I'll need to use the latter very sparingly if I want the horror to stay fresh. Otherwise, they might fall into the "yeah, yeah, evil children" category, and I don't want them to become that blase'.

I've worked out a half dozen ways in which they can go underground, a dozen or so big-scale encounters, a 3d map, and a time line. Good thing; they might head underground tonight!


----------



## RingXero

PC, yeah at most the kid/bard thing would be at one or two encounters.  but for me, if I was a player, I would have to see 'kids' at some point, or have a reason why they weren't there.  Somewhat completes the concept of whole villages/communities being consumed and converted by the advancing white kingdom.  

staying fresh without seeming to just be 'one upping' yourself in horror is extremely difficult, my lookout is abit warped having studied to become a funeral director at one point (it's the family buisness after all)

The alarm system concept could be anything, but I like the idea that it whispers something and having that sound magically carry, instead of loud ringing alarms.  

The leech/fungus landmines though... I like 'em
... mmm, the bits of mushroom that fell on you a few minutes ago haven't fallen off, in fact they seem to be pulsating....  take 2 points of con damage.  


and if I don't make sense, just realize this is mostly stream of consciousness stuff, and I write poorly with no sleep.. hehe

Back to things that are big and nasty.
a true ghoul trillith.... nah...
were the illithids completely destroyed or has the White Kingdom claimed a few?

I have an idea for a spell/trap/effect, basically the end result is the player becomes a ghoul, but without having died first.  maybe a just limb rot type spell?  Any chance in having outsider ghouls?

A spell that turns the targets' tongue into a ghoulish tongue, end effect would be similare to a targeted silence spell, but the 'flavor' text is different... sorry... 

have fun tonight sir.


RX


----------



## RangerWickett

Jeremy said:
			
		

> *Rokugan players stay away from this one too.
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> There is a spell I remember in which you cast it on a body of liquid, big or small, and it makes a copy of your target (proportionate to the size of the body of liquid---i.e. mug of ale makes a really small replica) that attacks your target.  If it touches him, it flows over him and coats him beginning to drown him.  And you have to beat on it (and consequently the target) to free him.
> 
> I'm positive I've seen it in 3e rules somewhere, so it might give you a good dynamic to work with. *




http://www.geocities.com/rangerwickett/General_Rules/elemental_guardian.html

You'll find the spell you want there, listed as Watery Double after a prestige class I wrote.  Or I'll post it here:

Watery Double

Transmutation [Water]

Level:  Sor/Wiz 3, Ele(W) 4
Components:  V, S, M
Casting Time:  1 action
Range:  Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target:  One body of water or other liquid
Duration:  1 round/level 
Saving Throw:  Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance:  Yes (object)

   After casting this spell, up until the duration of the spell, the first creature to touch the body of water or see its reflection in it triggers the watery double.  When the watery double is triggered, a copy of the reflected creature forms from the body of water.  The size of the double is equal to the size of the reflected creature, up to the limits of what water is available from the body of water.  For example, a man who sees his reflection in a wine goblet will create only a Diminutive double, but if he wades into a lake, the double will be Medium-size.  Likewise, a cloud giant wading through the lake would produce a Huge watery double.  The spell can only be triggered once, so if several people see their reflection in the same body of water, only one double will be produced.  If multiple creatures could trigger the spell at the same time, you choose which creature produces the double.  

   Once a double is produced, it pursues the creature that produced it to the best of its ability, even traveling across the ground, trying to attack that creature.  The double’s speed depends on its size.  On land, a Fine or Diminutive double moves at 10 feet per round; 15 feet for Tiny, 20 for Small, 30 for Medium-size, 40 for Large or larger creatures.  In water, this speed is tripled.  

   Once the double reaches the creature that produced it, it must make a touch attack with your base attack bonus, modified by size.  It keeps trying once each round until successful.  On a successful hit, the watery double engulfs the original.  If the double is the same size as the original, or one size smaller, it coats the original’s head and begins to drown that creature, as per the Drowning rule in the DMG (pg. 85).  If the double is two or more sizes smaller than the original, it just gets the original wet.  

   The double has a base AC of 10, modified by size, 1 hit point per caster level, damage reduction 5/+1, and has the [water] descriptor.

   Arcane Spell Component:  A distorted mirror.


----------



## Sir Osis of Liver

Watery double has always been a favorite of mine, it's just so cool.


----------



## RingXero

How about a skeleton beholder with human/demihuman skulls in place of the eyes, each capable of somantic and verbal spell casting?



RX


----------



## Xarlen

Ho, Pirate Cat!  

Update the link to your True Ghoul Template.

Note, I havn't read your story hour, but I *have* read this... and let me tell you, people, you are freaky. 

Since I havn't read your entry, bare with me, incase you've allready used this stuff.

1) Undead have no con (we all know that). So, Stinking Cloud is beautiful, in conjunction with them. Having vials of Trog musk in their bodies, that burst when they're struck. 

2) As mentioned allready, insects that live in the corpses, bursting free. Done to death.

3) Skeletons make perfect bombers. A Firetrap on a skeleton's jaw, and instructions to charge the enemy and open their mouth... Paticularly Evil when used with small animal corpses.

4) Subdual Substituted spells. Need I go on? 

5) Mongoose Publishing has a Necromancy book. Inside is a prestige class that basicly allows you to graft things onto others; parts from creatures. This could equally be done to undead. Imagine a ghoul or zombie with carrion crawler tentacles, Beholder eyestalks, barbed tails, limbs, etc.

6) Undead drenched in oil, with Fire protection spells. 

7) Combined with 6, vermin exosceletons that are filled with alchemist fire. The joints would be stuffed, of course, and simply a fire would turn them into walking bombs.

In the Creature Catalog, there's an Undead Ooze. Basicly an ooze that's feasted on the remains of an undead, and therefore ended up polluted. That could be fetched.

I've had some other ideas, just to toss out. Looking at T&B, at the Blood Magus. A vampiric blood magus with charmed or pet Stirges. They lurk,and attack, while he waits near by. When they've drained some blood, they'e trained to fly back to him. Then, he kills them, or milks them. That drained blood, he uses for the 10th level Blood Magus ability. I don't know if that'd fit Your concept, but hey, someone else could use it. 

Something I did a while back: Animated some mice skeletons. Strapped a caltrop onto each mouse spine. Poisoned it. They were directed to run under anyone's feet that came near. They use a touch attack, often on a surprise round.

Oh, and in Hollowfaust, they had the Undead Ballista. The arrows for it were semi-aware, and had vanes on them that the targeting system could basicly fix. So, if they missed their intended target, they got to roll again on a -1, to hit someone 5ft from the origional target. If that missed, they rolled again for a -2.

Note, I'm half asleep as I write this, so more ideas pending.


----------



## Kugar

I was really kidding when I wrote about deep horizon in the main story, but I think ghoulish Desmodu would be a great challenge for the defenders.


----------



## Nyarlathotep

*3-D Maps?*

Just out of curiousity, did you just sketch out those maps freehand, or was there an actual program you used for it?


----------



## Piratecat

Which maps?


----------



## Sidran

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Not that much water in most of the underdark, though!
> *




Not true not true, gasping for air as I say it over and over again

the Seafarers Handbook in FFG's Legends and lairs brings the subject up quite proficiently.

They Called it Underdeep. They talk about it in Chapter three of the book Undersea Adventures.  It includes example Adventure locations

They also have stats for Deep Drow ( or Aquatic Drow) Piratecat you gotta buy the book to understand. It is a usefull section. It has an example underdeep city named Silentdark, and a Ship example of mind flayer submercible

Adventuring through lost caves and sunken drow cities sounds fun to err scarry to me. I bought the book with high hopes, and while overall I am kinda disapointed with the quality  I like its sections on Ports of Call, Ghost Ships, and The Underdeep.

It comes with a Template (Aquatic) and 4 new creatures The Abyssal Shark, the Coral Golem,  The Drowned dead, and  the Hippocampus. 27 new spells, New magic Items,  New Domain Undersea, New equipment for undersea adventurers. 30 New feats, A new take on some old Aquatic races, and a single new PrC


----------



## Sidran

Could you please post your version of the True Ghoul Template the one that you tried to link to has gone away with the old boards stuff


----------



## Sidran

I dont have stats or anything, but last night our DM threw this nasty evil our way while dungeon crawling.

Basically it was a tube like giant worm that fits itself to the walls and ceilling of a coridor. When a character steps on its central sensor ( like a natural pressure plate) the create closes up and fills with an acidic liquid that quickly desolves clothing and non metal items ( as with Gelatanous Cube). Basically the main organism lives in the walls of a corridor and extends its "mouth" into the passage. Why we didnt see it until almost to late is because it had Chamillion skin ( on the mouth area) and it had what looks like mossy vines hanging from its roof near the wall.  It looked damp but that wasn't out of the norm cuz the creature evidently lives near subterrainial bodies of water.  To further hide it our DM gave it the ability to release Water vapor to further distill our visibilty.

Ill see if I can get the stats for the beasty if you want. It worked well and did a whole lot of damage, we got out with a fresh fear of deep delving and one of our characters nearly died in their. 

He called it a Tunnel Growth, and said it was a Huge Plant 
So if he doesn't have the stats for it I will write them up.

( It was like thirty feet long when open and it colapses into a ten foot bladder when closed with the natural pressure plate about midway through)


----------



## Piratecat

Sidran said:
			
		

> *Could you please post your version of the True Ghoul Template the one that you tried to link to has gone away with the old boards stuff *




Woot!

http://home.gwi.net/~rdorman/frilond/rul/dm/ghoul.htm


----------



## Piratecat

Neat monster idea, by the way. I may steal it!


----------



## Sidran

If you do steal please post it here so I can see your stats (saves me from making mine by the rules) My DM wont give the stats to me so I can use them in my games. Dagnabit


----------



## RingXero

Hey PC!

Love the way you answered the question of "where do the children go?"

very nicely done.


RX


----------



## Piratecat

It must be my day to be slow. Which answer?  

I suspect that instead of being turned into undead, most children in the underdark make tasty snacky-treats. Sad, but true.

Coming up at some point: stats for the marilith they're currently facing!


----------



## RingXero

Sorry,

I was referencing the previously stated problem of having a ghoul kingdom without having the sometimes(as you rightly pointed out before) cliched 'evil, undead children' thing.  

When I read the story hour mentioning the undead prophecy and their mission to  eradicate all children, I thought to myself, wow, 'nice handling' etc... etc...

an in campaign 'reason' to not show up with undead children, believable, requires basically no extra jumps of logic, and will probably not be thought of.  I think the absense of it would have either made the missing children come up, or it wouldn't have bubbled into the surface thoughts of the players, but 'something' would have been 'off'.

OR I could vary well be the only player slighty bothered about not seeing/finding out what happens to the children/women when the white kingdom overruns towns and such, so no biggie.



make sense? or am I rambiling incoherently again, if so just slap me.


RX


----------



## RingXero

And speaking of this 'prophecy' and Kellharin's offer, will we be seeing living opponents for the Defenders, other adventures who have bought the White Kingdom's prophecy 'hook, line, and sinker?'

Not necromancers, or such, but some powerful adventuring types or individuals who think along the lines of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend', 

or who have already taken Kelharin's offer and designated a city to be saved somewhere else (ooh or maybe one of the PCs home towns/cities?)

These NPCs(or old friends of the PCs) would be pulled in via Kellharin basically by saying if you don't help us defeat the Defenders, the deal is off, and we will make your city the first target instead.


Just some random thoughts,


RX


----------



## Piratecat

You sure will! Fighting undead all the time is bo-rrrring. People need a chance to get their criticals now and then. Thus, I'll try to mix it up.  That's the real reason behind the marilith, for instance; I wanted a badass opponent they could fight and get crits on!


----------



## Evil Gnome

and that can get crits on them right?

Well, the order of the day for spookiness seems to be children at one point or another.

how about some sort of shambling rotting monster with cords that hang about a foot bown from his arms and back,  attached to each is the head of a small child.  These "children"  speak, and suck in that breathy, creepy, childs voice.

They can give the monster some singing abilities

nursey rimes=sleep
begin calling out not to hurt them, please save them = charm
call out random things, like each questioning the same hero=confusion

The possibilities are nigh endless

or you could make a "spire" of childrens heads, with the same singing abilities, but have hidden 12' necks so when someone gets close they are surrounded by these pleading childrens faces, and then possibly bitten.

rely on things people are already afriad of to make it more creepy.  Spiders are a good bet usually, if you know what some character, or player goes to pieces over you could incorporate it.

eg;  If velendo is afraid of insects, throw in a formorian colony that has sided with the ghouls, and maybe put some ants (big ones(not real, they're to hard to position)) on the battle mat.

--just my thoughts


----------



## Ryan Koppenhaver

Oh, come on.  Evil, undead, monstrous children are such a cliché.

How about having the Defenders encounter a group of fairly normal, but still somehow creepy children?

For example, the Defenders take out a minor ghoul stronghold (perhaps a long-ago captured Dwarven outpost or something), and in one room, they discover a dozen human babies sitting around-- all of them totally identical.  They appear normal to all mundane and magical investigation, but they don't need to eat or sleep, don't age, don't really repond to their environment much; they just sit there, occasionally crying softly.

And don't explain where they came from, or what they're there for.  Ever.

(Of course, when the campaign winds down, and the players ask you "what about those babies?", you'd better be able to run real fast after you tell them "Oh, I just put them in to creep you out.  There's no explanation.")


----------



## Hammerhead

Except that then they throw enough divinations at the weird children to figure out their condition.  It's not as if the Defenders lack information gathering resources.


----------



## Ryan Koppenhaver

We'll just say that the divinations are mysteriously blocked.  Not like that's happened overly much in the story hour form lately or anything.


----------



## Sidran

How about vampyric children or something similar Werechildren

or Incoporeal children, or a room full of children all in different poses turned to stone some in cages turned to stone that whe they are released via a pressure plate that casts dispell magic on them these peaceful looking kids are really demons who are very very evil and very very freaky like with green glowing eyes and rabid sharp teath


----------



## Sidran

*Figured I would throw this one your way PC*

*Bone Naga * 
*Gargantuan (long) Aberration* 
*HD:* 18d8 + 30 ( 174 hp) 
*Initiative:*  3 (-Dex, + 4 Improved Initiative)
*Speed:* 10 Ft. 40 ft (surge)   
* AC:*  20  ( -3 Size, -1 Dex,  +18 Natural, +6 Deflection)    
* Attacks:* Bite +16 melee 
*Damage:* Bite 4d6+4 plus spittle  
* Face/Reach:* 30 ft by 30 ft (coiled)/ 15ft 
* Special Attacks:* Necromantic Spittle, Chilling Gaze, Spells
* Special Qualities * Undead Qualities, Surge, Immunities 
* Saves:* Fort +8 Ref +8 Will+ 14 
* Abilities:* Str 32 Dex 9 Con 26 Int 13 Wis 23 Cha 22
* Skills:* Bluff + 16, Concentration + 9, Intimidation + 12, Knowledge (Arcana) +6 
* Feats:* Improved Initiative, Great Fortitude
_________________________________________________

*Climate/ Terrain:* Subterranean, and cold terrain only
*Organization:*Solitary,2-5(String),5-20 (Nest),40-60 (Cabal)
*Challenge Rating: * 16
*Treasure:* Standard, Double Items
* Alignment:* Usually neutral evil
* Advancement:* 18-51 HD  (Colossal), 54-78 HD (Titanic)

  The Bone Naga is one of the Greater Naga’s, and is believed to have been created by the Reaper,  Nerull when he once waded across in the Necromantic fires of the River Styx. They are the bearers of the disease of undeath, and their bite can cause festering wounds that carry darker more insidious effects, for the victims of the Bone Naga, once bit, will undergo a change and eventually turn into the Zombie-like _Imladu_. Targeted by the Hunters for the dead due to their vile abilities, these monsters have mostly retreated to the cold underground labyrinths, or to the frigid wastes in the far north.

  Created in the Necromantic fires that flow in the river of the dead, and shaped into the hideous form that they now wear. The Bone Naga appears to be a rotting woman connected at her neck to a long serpentine body, bristling in an exoskeleton armor of bony white plates. They are numbered amoung the lumbering giants of the Naga species, but because of their habitats, few tales speak of these creatures. They have adapted to the cold corners of the world working out of the abandoned lairs of Ice worms, or in the dark crevices of the Mountains. Bone Naga’s are the offspring of _Imladesh_ Daughter of Nerull.  

  When not hunting for food Bone Naga’s tend to laze about their chosen holds waiting for would be heroes to wander into their midst. They are devout worshipers of their First Mother, and revere her, not Nerull as their creator goddess. 

*  Combat * 
Bone Naga’s like most other forms of the Naga’s species, are cunning, and dangerous creatures who find pleasure in tricking their pray, or watching as the victim crawls into their deviously plotted traps. Indeed _Imladesh_ Is known to have lured unsuspecting Northerners into her lair in the guise of a golden haired woman, and then seduce them into moving close, and then use her Necromantic Spittle to turn them to her masters use.  
  Bone Naga’s prefer to lead their victims on a cat and mouse chase before surging out and using their otherworldly bite. In a fight they will single out and focus on the death of the most powerful of her opponents first. 

* Chilling gaze * The spectral gaze of the Bone Naga causes those who stare into its eyes to experience the cold grip of death which can cause fear in the most steadfast of opponents. Anyone facing a Bone Naga within 40 ft must succeed at a Will save (DC 17) or be shaken for 1d6 minutes. This causes the victim to suffer a -2 morale penalty on all attack rolls, Weapon damage rolls, and saving throws. 
* Necromantic Spittle (Su):* Wounds caused by the bite of the Bone Naga begin to fester after 1d4 hours. Anyone bitten by them must succeed at a Fortitude check (DC 19) or contact a terrible wasting disease. The Incubation period is one day, and the disease deals 1d4 points of temporary constitution damage until either they reach 0 and transform into the monstrous Imladu, or are treated. The spell remove poison can remove the effects of this ability if the spell is cast before the Character has lost one half of their constitution. If the disease has taken more than one half of the characters constitution, only a remove curse, wish, or similar spell can remove the ill effects of the disease.

*Surge (Ex):* Bone Naga’s have a natural talent for making great surges of speed.  When attacking its victim, a Bone Naga can surge up to 40 ft to strike before the victim is aware. It can do this as a free action, and this ability does not draw an Attack of opportunity if done in sight of an opponent.  Characters may roll a listen check (DC 19) to see if they can catch the sound of the creature as it sets to make its rush, a sound said to bring up the image of a large horde of skeletons.

*Spells (Sp):* Bone Nagas cast spells as 10th-level sorcerers. (Usually of the Necromantic school of magic)

* Undead Qualities  (Su):* While not actually undead in the normal sense themselves. They are Creatures of the Necromantic fires which flow in the River of the dead, and as such have earned the immunities of undeath. Bone Naga’s are immune to poison, _ sleep_, Paralyzation, stunning, disease, and necromantic effects. They are also immune to _charms_, compulsions, phantasms, and morale effects. They do, however still suffer critical hits, and attacks that require them to have a fortitude save.

*Immunities (Ex):* Bone Naga’s are immune to all forms of acid, and cold.

* Imladesh is the Nagan goddess of  the Underworld, and is worshiped by the other species of Naga as well.

*Imladu appear to be either a ghoul, or zombie but in addition to their normal abilities gain the Necromantic spittle ability of the Bone Naga. 

**  Special Notes: As epic level creatures Bone Nagas gain the special ability to polymorph self as a free action, but are limited to the form of a beautiful young woman, or an old hag.


----------



## Piratecat

Yoink!  I'm nabbing this, and I might be able to do something with the creepy children as well. Not sure what, exactly, yet - but I'm close.  

Hey, as CR 16 beasties, why are bone nagas considered epic level creatures?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I just linked this into my main story hour, so I'm providing spoiler space in case my players accidentally wander by. Go away, players, go away!  














There we go.


----------



## Piratecat

A few things you've seen recently....

------------------------------------------------------------

*Tentacle Wraith*

_These are nothing but advanced wraiths with two attacks, 10 ft. reach, and a nasty habit of attacking from cover thanks to their incorporeality. It made for a frustrating fight without a whole lot of fear once the PCs hid in sunlight. If I wanted to make this scarier, i'd have them drain 1 point of constitution even on a successful save._

Large-Size Undead (Incorporeal)
Hit Dice: 10d12 (64 hp)
Initiative: +7 (+3 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 30 ft., fly 60 ft. (good)
AC: 15 (+3 Dex, +3 deflection)
Attacks: Incorporeal touch +9 melee
Damage: Incorporeal touch 1d4 and 1d6 permanent Constitution drain
Face/Reach: 10 ft. by 5 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Constitution drain, create spawn
Special Qualities: Undead, incorporeal, +2 turn resistance, unnatural aura, daylight powerlessness
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +9
Abilities: Str -, Dex 16, Con -, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 16
Skills: Hide +11, Intimidate +10, Intuit Direction +12, Listen +12, Search +10, Sense Motive +8, Spot +16
Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes (3 AoO’s), Improved Initiative, weapon focus (touch)

Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary, gang (2-5), or pack (6-11)
Challenge Rating: 9?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: 6-10 HD (Large-size) (already advanced)

*Combat*

Constitution Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a wraith’s incorporeal touch attack must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 18) or suffer 1d6 points of permanent Constitution drain.

Create Spawn (Su): Any humanoid slain by a tentacle wraith becomes a true ghoul in 1d4 rounds. Spawn are under the command of the tentacle wraith that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.

Unnatural Aura (Su): Both wild and domesticated animals can sense the unnatural presence of a wraith at a distance of 30 feet. They will not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range.

Undead: Immune to mind-influencing effects, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, and disease. Not subject to critical hits, subdual damage, ability damage, energy drain, or death from massive damage.

Incorporeal: Can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, +1 or better magic weapons, or magic, with a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. Can pass through solid objects at will, and own attacks pass through armor. Always moves silently.

Daylight Powerlessness (Ex): Wraiths are utterly powerless in natural sunlight (not merely a daylight spell) and flee from it.


----------



## Piratecat

Now, remember... no mentioning any of this elsewhere on the boards! It's not for my players' eyes.    Here's the stats for the psionic shadow they fought in the dwarven outpost of Mridsgate.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Baendril, shadow psion (telepath) 17

Baendril is centuries old, a normal shadow that picked up a small degree of self-sentience and psionic ability while hunting in a mindflayer city. He's slowly grown in power, keeping herds of dominated mortals in isolated caverns and playing intelligent monsters off against one another. He's hard for the White Kingdom to control, but makes a wonderful infiltrator for those times that the ghouls don't want to get food or more recruits.

HD:* 20d12 (130 hp)
*Init:* +2
*Speed:* 30', 40' flying (good), 90' flying with power
*AC:* 14 (+2 dex, +1 deflection, +1 insight)
*Attacks: *incorporeal touch +14/+9/+4
*Damage:* incorporeal touch 1d6 strength damage (19-20/x2)
*SA: *strength damage, psionics, create spawn
*SQ:* undead, incorporeal, +2 turn resistance
*Saves:* fort +6, Ref +8, Will +14
*Abilities:* S --, D 15, C --, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 22
*Skills:* Bluff +8, Concentration +20, Gather info +16, Hide +17 (+32), Intuit direction +5, Listen +7, Sense motive +11, Spot +7
*Feats:* Dodge, psionic focus (telepathy), greater psionic focus (telepathy), weapon focus (touch), improved critical (touch), heroic surge (extra move or attack 3/day), one more
*AL:* CE

*PP:* 170

*Powers:*

0 - _burst, daze,_ five more
1 – 1 pp - _conceal thoughts, sense link, combat precog, know location, Overlay Shadow Body_ (as misdirection)
2 – 3 pp - _brain lock, detect thoughts, combat prescience, suggestion, see invisible_
3 – 5 pp - _schism, crisis of breath, charm monster, fly_
4 – 7 pp - _fatal attraction DC +10, forced mindlink, mindwipe, tailor memory_
5 – 9 pp - _mind probe DC +11, greater domination, baleful teleport DC +7, teleport_
6 – 11 pp - _mass suggestion DC +12, Killer Shadow_ (targets shadow animates and attacks), _Shadow of Hatred_
7 – 13 pp - _insanity DC +13, mass domination, ultrablast_
8 – 15 pp - _mind blank, shadow blades_

_Shadow Blades _(Su): In any area that contains decent shadows -- a room lit by multiple torches, a rocky shrine in late afternoon, or any area that you would let a shadowdancer hide in but not a normal rogue (not enough for full concealment) -- the shadow may animate shadows with 30' of itself as a standard action. The animated shadow blades last for one round. Any character within this area takes 3d6 points of temporary Strength damage. A Reflex Save (DC=1d20+15) halves this damage (evasion works as normal).

_Shadow of Hatred _(Su): As a standard action, the shadow may select up to three targets within 30' who have visible shadows. The shadows come to life and attack the target as a Phantasmal Killer (same DC).

_Natural Invisibility_ (Su): The shadow is naturally invisible in any area with decent shadows, pooling his essence into the shadows of the area.

-------------------

Baendril has a fascinating history and personality, which I don't have time to write up right now.


----------



## Caliber

Very nasty PC! I love it!

Do you often let Psion's create their own powers? Or do you not get the request often?


----------



## Piratecat

Only one psionic PC in the party, and he's on hiatus - but I'd be fine with it. I like that sort of thing.


----------



## JacktheRabbit

How did the dwarven outpost last as long as it did with a creature like this shadow or the tentacle wraith in the neighborhood.

I almost get the impression that the Defenders walked into a big trap with the outpost as bait.

This wouldnt jive though with the comment made by the ghoul right before the Marilith was gated into the battle.


----------



## Piratecat

The tentacle wraith was quite far away, if you remember correctly. Kellharin summoned them to him just before he confronted the DoD.

The psionic shadow is (was!) a ghoulish "last resort." The ghouls can't control the shadows easily, and turning living things into shadows eliminates both a source of fresh food and a source of new corpses. Baendril is CE, and his performance is (was!) fairly tightly controlled by the ghoulish commanders. 

When the DoD took out the demon fairly easily after wasting so many ghoulish troops, Baendril was given permission to take them out. 

Meanwhile, the ghouls had diverted most of the army that destroyed Mrid to another location. About a third of it was sent to take Mridsgate. The ghouls tried to take it quickly, failed, and laid siege while they cast the unhallow spell. The slow moving skeletal siege engine (which you'll see soon) was to have finished the job.

These series of encounters have taught the ghouls some very interesting things about the Defenders. I doubt you'll see very many big-scale battles from here on out; it's simply too costly to the White Kingdom.


----------



## DoctorB

A few random thoughts:

With a party as powerful as the Defenders, the White Kingdom cannot win with pure force.

I think it might be time for guile and assassination.

Is there a way the White Kingdom can get someone close without being detected?  Perhaps an assassin who looks like someone the DoD would want to defend.  They have the advantage that their people probably don't care if they die in the attempt.  I assume the Defenders always have True Seeing and other similar magic up, though, so the infiltrator would have to get past that somehow.

What if some living beings DID take the ghouls up on their offer of friendship?


----------



## Piratecat

Well, they keep trying! Kellharin recently tried pretty hard to assassinate them. When that didn't work, he showed up with a bouquet of flowers and a bottle of 360 year old drow wine as a peace offering.     DrB, I like the way you think....

Kellharin is an interesting kind of fellow with some hidden facets. He's also damn hard to track down and kill out of hand.


----------



## Ryan Koppenhaver

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *
> When the DoD took out the demon fairly easily after wasting so many ghoulish troops, Baendril was given permission to take them out.
> *




I can't help wondering if the ghouls have been reading the evil overlord list,  particularly item #80.



> If my weakest troops fail to eliminate a hero, I will send out my best troops instead of wasting time with progressively stronger ones as he gets closer and closer to my fortress.


----------



## Piratecat

You guys want to know a secret that the PCs won't find out until it's too late?

The ghouls have the undead equivalent of _true resurrection_. That means that all those powerful undead that they've killed (except for the ones Malachite has personally slain) are probably going to show up again. Next time, though, they're going to attack together in a coordinated fashion.


----------



## Vymair

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *
> 
> The ghouls have the undead equivalent of true resurrection. That means that all those powerful undead that they've killed (except for the ones Malachite has personally slain) are probably going to show up again. *




You are an evil man PCat.  That it is a brilliant twist...


----------



## Sidran

Hey, as CR 16 beasties, why are bone nagas considered epic level creatures?


As Titanic Naga's (those larger than Collossall they are considered epic level) 

And if you don't like that don't use it but I figure a Titanic Naga's 
CR at 25 + and they earn a new epic feat once they have hit 20 or More HD they are considered a Epic level Monster.


----------



## Elric

Piratecat, I think Shadow Blades is a little too powerful.  A hasted Psion using Shadow Blades does 3d6 damage if you make both saves.  The only way to heal ability damage to several people at once is to use Mass Heal.  The only real protection is evasion.  Mass Heal also has the advantage of healing tons of HP for the party and just about killing all of their enemies.  I hope you gave Baendril a save, especially since Mass Heal doesn't even require a touch attack.  If you had the party grouped within 30 feet of each other (and Velendo didn't have his fairy gift), two hasted versions of Baendril would incapacitate the entire party.  The undead have a version of True Resurrection- if they have Mass Harm they won't even need that.  Hopefully the players have someone to Resurrect them- I want more Story Hour!  Keep up the great work!


----------



## Piratecat

Elric said:
			
		

> *Piratecat, I think Shadow Blades is a little too powerful.  *




Compared to a spell of the same level like _horrid wilting_, which would have done 17d8, 34d8 if cast twice? Nah, I disagree. Besides, _shadow blades_ doesn't kill you, it immobilizes you; psionics still works, as does still spells. I think it's just about right. 

Baendril is unique, incidentally, within the White Kingdom.

I use a will save for _harm_ effects, with inflict critical wound damage if you make it (this can't bring you below 4 hit points).


----------



## JacktheRabbit

Any chance you can throw the stats up on him? I would love to see who is leading the Kingdom right now.

Also did he take over after the Necromancer that pulled the undead saint trick was killed? Or has Kellharin always been in charge?




			
				Piratecat said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Kellharin is an interesting kind of fellow with some hidden facets. He's also damn hard to track down and kill out of hand. *


----------



## JacktheRabbit

Why only Malachite? Are you saying that the only way to guaruntee a particular undead is gone for good is for Malachite to kill them with one of his Emerald Bursts?




			
				Piratecat said:
			
		

> *You guys want to know a secret that the PCs won't find out until it's too late?
> 
> The ghouls have the undead equivalent of true resurrection. That means that all those powerful undead that they've killed (except for the ones Malachite has personally slain) are probably going to show up again. Next time, though, they're going to attack together in a coordinated fashion.  *


----------



## Ryan Koppenhaver

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *Why only Malachite?*




It's one of his Hunter of the Dead abilities:



> True Death: Undead slain by either melee attacks or spells can never rise again as undead.




PC, the wording suggests that this does not apply to undead destroyed by turning (a Supernatural ability) or positive energy bursts (I'm guessing they're Su, as well).  Is that the intent?


----------



## Piratecat

As Ryan just said, one of Malachite's Hunter of the Dead powers is that when he kills an undead, it _stays_ dead. I'm a firm believer that PCs deserve to be rewarded for using their abilities.... even if they don't know it just yet.  

I think you're right, Ryan; undead killed by the positive energy burst or turning aren't covered. Interesting.

I won't post Kellharin yet. About four or five updates from now, I'll post something related to him, but not yet. You'll see why!


----------



## Jeremy

Because Malachite is a high level Hunter of the Dead.  One of his special abilities is that anything he causes to die with sword or spell, stays dead.  Period.

True Death or something like that.  If he kills a lich, no phylactery will save him.  Ditto on a vampire, no gaseous, do not pass go, do not collect $200.  D-e-d Dead.

Love them guys.


----------



## Knightfall

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *You guys want to know a secret that the PCs won't find out until it's too late?
> 
> The ghouls have the undead equivalent of true resurrection. That means that all those powerful undead that they've killed (except for the ones Malachite has personally slain) are probably going to show up again. Next time, though, they're going to attack together in a coordinated fashion.  *




That is so cool!  I mean, imagine the looks on their faces when they encounter all those old enemies 'resurrected' to fight them once again.

BTW, the marillith died right?  She was gated in not summoned?  Is there a chance the Defenders might face her again, this time as an undead servant?  I can't remember which Defender struck the killing blow.

BTW, P'Cat.  I have another creature idea for you.

I thought of this just and the DoD were heading into the underdark.  Now, after reading the post about the albino halflings I think this creature would make a scary mount.

Alright, imagine if you will a giant monstrous spider-like abomination that looks like a giant daddy-long-legs spider.  This creature wouldn't actually be a monstrous spider but it would look like one from far away.

The creatures legs (10 of 'em) are thicker, like a tarantulas, each ending in a sharp, pointed appendenge that the creature can use for attacks.  The creature only needs 8 legs to walk on at any one time, attacking with the any two legs each round.  The legs would have 10 foot reach and would be coated with deadly contact poison.  The legs would also have a natural hardness rating, which would keep the PCs from being able to chop off its legs (maybe even regeneration).

The creatures body would be small in size and elevated way above the PCs' heads.  It would be be almost impossible to hit in melee from the ground.  The creature can bite (with poison) but it isn't the creatures most effective attack from its body.  Its best attack would be a special breath weapon that causes half-sonic/half-poison damage.  Bwah-ha-ha!   

Oh yes, the creatures can walk almost anywhere.  Cavern floors, ceilings, and even through deep water.  (The creature has the ability of being able to move freely through water without penalty.)

Then you mount the albino halflings on top of the critters and turn them all into true ghouls.


----------



## Plane Sailing

it's a jolly good job it wasn't a typical Shadow STR drain, otherwise Velendo would currently be an undead shadow of his former self - probably some others too!

(I like the idea of allowing still spells to be cast while incapacitated at 0 Str, I think I'll use that)

Cheers


----------



## Piratecat

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> *it's a jolly good job it wasn't a typical Shadow STR drain, otherwise Velendo would currently be an undead shadow of his former self - probably some others too!*




Whatcha mean, Alex? Did I make a stupid mistake?


----------



## JacktheRabbit

Two completely different items. The shadows personal ability is via touch and that drains strength and creates a shadow if it kills you. The ability used against the Defenders was a psionic ability. Now if every strength drain by a shadow can cause it victims to be raised as fewllow shadows then all shadows from now on take a single level in mage to get the Ray of Enfeeblement spell and get a LOT more dangerous.






			
				Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> *it's a jolly good job it wasn't a typical Shadow STR drain, otherwise Velendo would currently be an undead shadow of his former self - probably some others too!
> 
> (I like the idea of allowing still spells to be cast while incapacitated at 0 Str, I think I'll use that)
> 
> Cheers *


----------



## Capellan

> _Originally posted by DocMoriarty_
> Two completely different items. The shadows personal ability is via touch and that drains strength and creates a shadow if it kills you. The ability used against the Defenders was a psionic ability. Now if every strength drain by a shadow can cause it victims to be raised as fellow shadows then all shadows from now on take a single level in mage to get the Ray of Enfeeblement spell and get a LOT more dangerous.




*yoink*  

Actually, I think that could work *really* nicely as a visual ... instead of the usual appearance of the spell the Shadow's version could be for it to _s-t-r-e-t-c-h_ out to the PCs, mimicking a real life shadow.  Same game impact, much greater "ooga booga" spooky effect.

Even if you didn't allow the spell effect to raise further shadows (which, of course, it shouldn't), I'm guessing it would scare the pants off a few players!

And if PC is looking for ideas for non-Ghoul enemies for the Defenders to fight, may I suggest:

Solnir Darkmantle
Ranger / Necromancer / Palemaster (insert levels to taste)

As a youth, Solnir a Ranger (enemy: Aberrations) who was captured and enslaved by Mind Flayers.  After a number of years of slavery (feel free to make this a _really_ long time if you make Solnir non-human) chance circumstances lead to his escape ... possibly it was even a True Ghoul attack.

Swearing vengeance on the Mindflayers, and realising that Undead were immune to the Illithid's major powers, Solnir became a Necromancer (Barred: Enchantment ... too similar to the powers the Mindflayers used on him), and subsequently a Pale Master.

His motivation for assisting the Ghouls may be to protect a particular settlement (per the offer the Defenders were given) or simply because they are helping him kill Mindflayers.

One of the nice aspects of this is that Solnir can get away with being N or CN in alignment quite easily, if you want to push the Defenders into something of a moral dilemma.

Feats: Solnir should have Iron Will, Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration as feats, to reflect his Illithid-hunting preferences.

As people may have guessed, I have plans to use Solnir as a foil for my own players at some point.  My draft has him at Ranger 1 / Necromancer 5 / Pale Master 6, which is nowhere near enough to challenge the Defenders, but if pushed up a bit and given support, he could prove a nasty surprise.


----------



## Knightfall

ATTENTION: Piratecat.

Ok, I asked you in the story hour thread but didn't get a response.  Can I please, please, please use Calphas in my homebrew campaign, World of Kulan?

And can you please, please, please fill in the following for me (if you've even got that far when it comes to your pantheon)?  Stuff you haven't done I'll just make up.

*CALPHAS*
_The Wallbuilder_

Lesser, Intermediate, or Greater Deity (?)
Symbol: (?)
Home Plane: (?)
Godly Realm: (?)
Alignment: (?)
Portfolio: (?)
Worshipers: (?)
Cleric Alignments: NG* and (?)
Domains: Earth, Wall* and (?)
Favored Weapon: Quarterstaff* (?)

* Gleaned from Velendo's character sheet

I promise I'll leave you alone after this.  Well, maybe.  Did I say *please*?


----------



## Piratecat

Knightfall, absolutely you may! I'll stat that up for you tomorrow.


----------



## Kaodi

*Creepy Idea*

Maybe you get enough ideas here, maybe shadows are done too often, maybe life would be different if the moon really was made of green cheese, but in any case, I had an interessting yet relatively simple idea to spruce up spooky encounters. 

I was just thinking that it would be really neat to have a villainous spellcaster who had a shadow with a life of its own, a la (sp?) Peter Pan. What would be different though is that this shadow and its owner are linked, so that they have all of their hp added together into one pool. All target non-area spells that affect one affect both (so if they are affected by something like curse, they are both affected) and if both are caught in a single area spell the pool would be hit twice. They would fortify each others turning resistance, giving something like +4 to each other (which is why this version using an undead shadow works best with another undead) and they are telepathically linked. Noticeably, on a turning attempt they can only be turned, not destroyed, unless *both* are destroyed by the same attempt. This idea would probably work well with a high-level undead cleric, and would be really creepy to describe that they realize their opponent suddenly casts no shadow, then have the shadow attack from behind. Said shadow would have maybe half of its owners HD rounded up. Modify as wished and enjoy.


----------



## Knightfall

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Knightfall, absolutely you may! I'll stat that up for you tomorrow. *




Woohoo!!

Thanks P'Cat...


----------



## Gidien

*More ideas*

Wow. Just found this thread yesterday. Many thanks to PCat for its existence. And now for my musings...

Going back to the undead monks, you could have it so that in a large cavern, they leap down from concealed ledges, strike, and using spring attack and leap of the clouds hop back up. When the PCs fly up to investigate, they are greeted by the ten goulish sorcerers, all of which have prepped fireballs... Ten saves, tens sets of 6d6 damage, and the gouls aren't even high level. Plus, the monks are still there... 

And, for something different, add levels of blackguard to the monks. Sneak attacking, spellcasting, smiting goodness.

Oh and to Gideon... you stole my name! Or I stole yours... this could get confusing if I start posting with any frequency.


----------



## Elric

Hmm, that's a good point about Horrid Wilting.  8th level Wizard spells are really powerful.  On the other hand, I don't think that Psions have anything close as powerful as Horrid Wilting.  I don't have the book on me, but I thought that the "blast" power at that level did 15d6 damage.  I'm not sure about the exact wording of the Shadow's touch attack.  Can Baendril bring someone to 0 Str with Shadow Blades and then touch them once to turn them into a Shadow?

I wonder if any powerful creatures about to be killed by Malachite know enough to kill itself or ensure that it dies either to someone else or by Malachite's Positive Energy Burst or turning instead of his blade.


----------



## Piratecat

Elric said:
			
		

> *I wonder if any powerful creatures about to be killed by Malachite know enough to kill itself or ensure that it dies either to someone else or by Malachite's Positive Energy Burst or turning instead of his blade. *




Nope. They don't even know he has that power!  Boy, will they be mad when they find out. 

"He can lock us into permanent death. He must die first!"


----------



## Capellan

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Nope. They don't even know he has that power!  Boy, will they be mad when they find out.
> 
> "He can lock us into permanent death. He must die first!" *




Honest, Piratecat doesn't have anything against Paladins ... 

...it's just that his NPCs _really_ dislike 'em ...


----------



## Piratecat

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *CALPHAS*
> _The Wallbuilder_
> 
> Lesser, Intermediate, or Greater Deity (?)  *Intermediate*
> Symbol: (?) *Either a stone shield or a stacked pile of five bricks*
> Home Plane: (?) *Elysium*
> Godly Realm: (?) *Haven, a place of beauty and safety where none can be hurt*
> Alignment: (?) *NG*
> Portfolio: (?) *Protection (of the weak), safety, civilization over raw nature*
> Worshipers: (?) *Ummm... yes?*
> Cleric Alignments: NG* and (?) *LG, with some true N and LN sects*
> Domains: Earth, Wall* and (?) *Protection*
> Favored Weapon: Quarterstaff* (?) *or hammer. Big on shield bashing, too.*


----------



## Schmoe

I don't know if this belongs here, but it seems like as good a place as any.

*The Situation*

The wizard stares intently at the cracked, evil visage of the lich-king.  As he looks around at his companions, he knows that they don't stand a chance without him.  They are powerful, yes, but against such a mighty spell-caster, only he holds the key to their success.  With determination etched on his face, he casts the Mass Haste spell that he prepared for the occassion.  He revels in the power of magic as his every action is accelerated to a blur of speed.  Then he goes for what he hopes will be the beginning of the end for the lich-king as arcane words of power fill the air.  With satisfaction he looks around at the effects of the Time Stop.  His companions' expressions are frozen on their faces.  A droplet of water hangs motionless in midair, just inches from the stalactite from which it just fell.  As the wizard prepares to unleash his full fury upon the undead abomination, his jaw drops in horror.  The lich-king turns its head toward him, its eyes burning points of hatred, and smiles.  Eldritch magic spills from its lips, and the wizard screams, knowing that only the lich can hear.

*What happened*

The lich-king has epic levels, and he took the feat *Spell Stowaway*.  The spell he chose, of course, was Time Stop.  Too bad for the wizard, as now it's the lich's turn.  

-------------

Piratecat, I don't know if your players ever use the Time Stop spell (I haven't noticed it yet), but this would be a great surprise to spring.  Personally, I can't wait until my players reach that level...


----------



## Knightfall

Thanks P'Cat.  His portfolio isn't exactly what I thought it would be but it's intriguing none the less.  I'll probably add some additional elements to his portfolio regarding masonry and builders.

And the worshippers section refers to the format they use in Deities & Demigods book, which lists the classes (besides clerics), races and professions most likely to worship the god.

{EDIT}

BTW, is it alright for me to include these stats under my Story Hour or is there anything listed above that you don't want your players to see.  (Most likely not but I figured I should ask.)


----------



## Capellan

*Wall domain*

Has Piratecat ever posted the full specifics of the Wall domain?  I may have missed it, but I don't remember it.  If not, any chance of seeing it?

It would probably be possible to go through the story hour and piece together most of the spell list, but if I can save the effort, I will 

And would the "conjure bricks out of nothing" ability Velendo has be the granted power of the domain?


----------



## Ryan Koppenhaver

You can see it on 
Velendo's character sheet.

Speaking of which, where do Velendo's Protection from Evil, 1/week/level; Sanctuary, 1/day; and Wall of Calphas, 1/day abilities come from?  Are they just standard Calphasian perks, like the brick thing?  Are they related to him being a Proxy for Calphas?


----------



## Piratecat

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *Thanks P'Cat.  His portfolio isn't exactly what I thought it would be but it's intriguing none the less.  I'll probably add some additional elements to his portfolio regarding masonry and builders.
> *




Right! They're in there, too. Whoops.  

And yes, creating bricks out of nothing is a granted power, usable an unlimited amount.


----------



## Capellan

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *
> 
> And yes, creating bricks out of nothing is a granted power, usable an unlimited amount. *




Hmm.  That's actually scarily utilitarian.  It's just one brick at a time, right?  No creating 500 bricks in the air above your enemies, I mean 

Even then, it has a lot of uses: it's an unlimited source of impromtu missiles, for one thing (how _does_ Calphas feel about his Priests lobbing bricks at the bad guys?).  And I can easily see most parties leaving a long string of fortified camp sites behind them on their travels.  Mine certainly would.

Not to mention building their strongholds on the cheap!


----------



## Bronz Dragon

*Re: Creepy Idea*



			
				Kaodi said:
			
		

> *Maybe you get enough ideas here, maybe shadows are done too often, maybe life would be different if the moon really was made of green cheese*



It's only green cheese on our side, it's honey on the other side *oooh, I'm so bad!!*

Shadows are never done too often, as long as they're done right..   

I smell a prestige class in that idea of yours, mebbe?  huh?


----------



## Kaodi

*Shadow*

A prestige class would seem to me to be a tad complicated to balance, so I was actually thinking more along the idea of some sort of minor artifact, and hey, can there possibly be *any* shortage of evil, undead artifacts sitting about in the Kingdom of the Ghouls?


----------



## rackabello

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *As for the undead bard, well, stay tuned and grab some popcorn. That's been planned for some time.   *



Howdy, PCat!  If the Defenders haven't already met the undead bard you mentioned a few pages back, here's a bit of Lovecraft I re-read tonight that may be inspirational:


"It was a godless sound....To call it a dull wail, a doom-dragged whine, or a hopeless howl of chorused anguish and stricken flesh without mind would be to miss its most quintessential loathsomeness and soul-sickening overtones."*  The Case of Charles Dexter Ward*
I imagine the necrotic bard strumming an unstrung lute and singing an ancient ballad of a lover spurned and betrayed to her death, with an audience of ghouls groaning each chorus through torn and tongueless throats...

have you thought about making the paralytic effect of a ghoul's touch one of this foe's bardic song abilities?


----------



## justinsluder

Piratecat,

I was wondering, do you have Denizens of Darkness?  It's full of all kinds of nasties you can throw and the DoD.

Have fun and keep up the great work.

-Justin


----------



## Piratecat

I don't, Justin.  Who publishes it?

And Rackabello... beautiful image!  I love it!


----------



## Knight Otu

Sword and Sorcery Studios. It is the Ravenloft monster book.

Strange ... using the DoD against the DoD ...


----------



## DoctorB

With respect to your last couple of updates:

Very cool encounter in the Defenders' supposedly safe castle.

So, what is it?  A cross between a Gibbering Mouther and a Chaos Beast?

I am particularly interested in what magical protections you had it use.  Creative uses of spells and powers is something I have been working on lately to challenge my moderately powerful group (now 9-11 level).


----------



## justinsluder

Whatever that beast is you put the DoD up against is one nasty SOB.

Very nice work, as always.

- Justin


----------



## Piratecat

In case you were wondering... Kellharin's favorite pet (named Sluuth) is an advanced, fiendish black pudding with its acid damage vs items tuned down slightly and some nifty special effects added.

After Kellharin scried into the extraplanar castle, he _gated_ it in from the Prime.  You folks want to see the stats and the buffing spells?


----------



## justinsluder

Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes!!!!

Please.


----------



## DMRob

You had to ask?  Of course we do.

DmRob


----------



## DoctorB

Yes, I would love to see the buffs etc.

Can the DoD prevent Scrying into the Castle if they want to?


----------



## Piratecat

DoctorB said:
			
		

> *Can the DoD prevent Scrying into the Castle if they want to? *




If you can come up with a way to prevent it, feel free to post it. They're currently leaning towards _false vision_, although the duration stinks. I'm thinking of extending the duration as a house rule.

I'll post Sluuth's stats.


----------



## Piratecat

Here are Sluuth's stats *without* any buffing spells.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Sluuth*			Fiendish Advanced Black Pudding (with no buffing spells)
			Gargantuan Ooze
Hit Dice:		24d10+174 (306 hp)
Initiative:		-2 (Dex)
Speed:			40 ft., climb 30 ft.
AC:			4 (-4 size, -2 Dex)
Attacks:			Slam +23 melee
Damage:		Slam 2d8+12 and 3d6 acid
Face/Reach: 		15 ft. by 35 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks:		Improved grab, acid, constrict(2d8+12 and 3d6 acid), smite good
Special Qualities:		DR 10/+3, SR 24, cold/fire DR 20, Blindsight 60’, split, ooze
Saves:			Fort +14, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities:		Str 32, Dex 6, Con 23, Int --, Wis 1, Cha 1
Climate/Terrain:		Any marsh and underground
Organization:		Solitary
Challenge Rating:	16
Treasure:		None
Alignment:		Neutral Evil

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the black pudding must hit with its slam attack. If it gets a hold, it can constrict. Opposed grapple check: 1d20+39

Acid (Ex): The pudding secretes a digestive acid that dissolves organic material and metal quickly. Any melee hit deals acid damage. The pudding’s acidic touch deals 30 points of damage per round to wood or metal objects (remember, objects take half damage from acid). The opponent’s armor and clothing dissolve and become useless immediately unless they succeed at Reflex saves (DC 28). The acid can dissolve stone, dealing 20 points of damage per round of contact. A metal or wooden weapon that strikes a black pudding also takes acid damage unless it succeeds at a Reflex save (DC 28).

Constrict (Ex): A black pudding deals automatic slam and acid damage with a successful grapple check. The opponent’s clothing and armor suffer a -4 penalty to Reflex saves against the acid.

Split (Ex): Weapons deal no damage to a black pudding. Instead the creature splits into two identical puddings, each with half the original’s hit points (round down). A pudding with only 1 hit point cannot be further split. Splitting consumes a move-equivalent action.

Smite Good (Su): Once per day the creature can make a normal attack to deal additional damage equal to its HD total (maximum of +20) against a good foe.

Ooze: Immune to mind-influencing effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, and polymorphing. Not subject to critical hits. Can not be flanked.

Reddish-black and drips acid; imprint of ghouls keeps pressing out of ooze.


----------



## Benben

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *You folks want to see the stats and the buffing spells? *




That would be lovely.  My table is about to enter into a long Cthonic arc, and I need to make all sorts of intereresting oozes, sahaugin psychic warriors, advanced beholders, and illithids.

You're black pudding would make my job easier.


----------



## Piratecat

And here they are *with* all buffing spells active.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Sluuth*			Fiendish Advanced Black Pudding (with buffing spells)
			Gargantuan Ooze
Hit Dice:		24d10+174 (426 hp)
Initiative:		+0 (Dex)
Speed:			40 ft., climb 30 ft., _air walk_ 40 ft., _fly_ 90 ft.; _freedom of movement_
AC:			50% miss chance, AC 15 (-4 size, +0 Dex, +4 armor, +5 deflection)
Attacks:			Slam +24 melee
Damage:		Slam 2d8+17 and 3d6 acid
Face/Reach: 		15 ft. by 35 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks:		Improved grab, acid, constrict (2d8+17 and 3d6 acid), smite good, transmit disease (cackle fever) 
Special Qualities:	DR 10/+3, SR 24,_ improved invisible_, retributive strength damage, cold/fire DR 20,
_spell immunity_ (see below), Blindsight 60’, split, ooze,  _nondetection_, 50% miss chance, 
Saves:			Fort +19, Ref +13, Will +8 (+4 resistance already added in)
Abilities:		Str 40, Dex 10, Con 33, Int --, Wis 1, Cha 1
Skills: 			Jump +45
Organization:		Solitary
Challenge Rating:	16
Treasure:		None
Alignment:		Neutral Evil

*Retributive strength damage:* if a good creature succeeds at a melee attack against an unholy aura-warded creature, the offending attacker takes 1d6 points of temporary Strength damage (DC 23 Fortitude save negates).

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, the black pudding must hit with its slam attack. If it gets a hold, it can constrict. Opposed grapple check: 1d20+44

*Acid (Ex):* The pudding secretes a digestive acid that dissolves organic material and metal quickly. Any melee hit deals acid damage. The pudding’s acidic touch deals 30 points of damage per round to wood or metal objects. The opponent’s armor and clothing dissolve and become useless immediately unless they succeed at Reflex saves (DC 28). The acid can dissolve stone, dealing 20 points of damage per round of contact. A metal or wooden weapon that strikes a black pudding also takes acid damage unless it succeeds at a Reflex save (DC 28). As always, objects take half damage from objects.

*Constrict (Ex):* A black pudding deals automatic slam and acid damage with a successful grapple check. The opponent’s clothing and armor suffer a -4 penalty to Reflex saves against the acid.

*Split (Ex):* Weapons deal no damage to a black pudding. Instead the creature splits into two identical puddings, each with half the original’s hit points (round down). A pudding with only 1 hit point cannot be further split. Splitting consumes a move-equivalent action.

*Smite Good (Su):* Once per day the creature can make a normal attack to deal additional damage equal to its HD total (maximum of +20) against a good foe.

*Ooze:* Immune to mind-influencing effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, and polymorphing. Not subject to critical hits. Can not be flanked.

*Buffing spells:* 
(1) endure elements, prot vs good, sanctuary, shield of faith (18 minutes); jump, mage armor, 
(2) empowered x2 bull’s strength (+8),  darkness,   empowered x2 endurance (+10),   resist elements,  silence;   blur (20% miss chance),  cat’s grace,   magic mouth,  protection from arrows (DR 10/+4 for 170 minutes) 
(3) Deeper darkness,  prayer (luck – 18 rounds),  protection vs elements (fire, sonic, cold; 216 points protected);  displacement (17 rounds), fly (17 hours),  haste, nondetection (DC 28 level check; 17 hours) 
(4) Air walk (1700 rounds),  freedom of movement (1700 rounds), spell immunity (1700 rounds – searing light, magic missile, fireball, ice storm);  improved invisibility (170 rounds);  
(8) Unholy aura (18 rounds) 

Yellow spells are reflected in the stats. Green spells are backup. Red spells are NOT reflected in the stats, but are active and important nonetheless.

1.	Pulsates with magic in the silent darkness. Victims are silently drawn inside where they can’t be seen. Smells like brimstone and alchemy.
2.	Darkness dispelled? The thing drips smoking acid across the floor. Still invisible and silent, victims can’t be heard as the acid dissolves them.
3.	Visible? It is pulsing blackish red, and imprints of ghouls keeps pressing out of ooze.  

The big advantage here is surprise and fear; no one will know what it is, although it can dissolve and devour.


----------



## Piratecat

Note that my CR is probably a bit low! i'm sure there are some typos in there, too (such as the hit die calculation not reflecting the altered constitution), but this should give you the general idea.


----------



## Quartermoon

You are so, so mean.  I mean, hey, they're in their PJs, fighting acid!

Meanie.


----------



## the Jester

*Sluuth*

That's just beautiful.  

I mean... wow.  Beautiful.


----------



## DMRob

Thats the best time.  Flesh heals, Magical Armor doesn't.  I'd rather end up naked, and acid scarred, but easily healable, then naked, scarred, and surrounded by the ooze that was my +5 fullplate, shield, and sword.

DmRob


----------



## Piratecat

Quartermoon said:
			
		

> *You are so, so mean.  I mean, hey, they're in their PJs, fighting acid!
> 
> Meanie. *




Yeah. Thank goodness you never did this to me, when you were my DM!!!  Think of it as "less cool items to be destroyed," and it's a little less painful.


----------



## Galfridus

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *
> 
> If you can come up with a way to prevent it, feel free to post it. They're currently leaning towards false vision, although the duration stinks. I'm thinking of extending the duration as a house rule.
> 
> *




_Screen_ is the best way in the core rules, although what happens when you _Gate_ into a Screened area is up to the DM. (I would say it depended on the particular illusion; if there were just subtle changes the _Gate_ would work fine, but obscuring the whole area would prevent spells like _Gate_ from working.)

Otherwise there's not much that lasts any real duration. Scrying is just starting to become an issue in my game, and I've decided that in general it's an offense-happy world: scrying works, and the powers-that-be have come up with ways to deal with it (or not). I strictly enforce the rule that _Scrying_ only works on creatures, which cuts out many abuses. 

The one house rule I am considering is for _Detect Scrying_: if the detecting character succeeds in a Scry vs. Scry roll, they can cast a spell (such as Dispel Magic or False Vision) before the scrier gets a chance to see anything. Haven't decided for sure, though.

P.S.: Sluuth's stats: Ewwwwwwwwwww.


----------



## Piratecat

DoctorB said:
			
		

> *With respect to your last couple of updates:
> 
> Very cool encounter in the Defenders' supposedly safe castle.
> 
> So, what is it?  A cross between a Gibbering Mouther and a Chaos Beast?
> 
> I am particularly interested in what magical protections you had it use.  Creative uses of spells and powers is something I have been working on lately to challenge my moderately powerful group (now 9-11 level). *




wow! Are your PCs already that high? I loved the one time we got to sit in on the game.

A couple of thoughts:

 - hitting them in the supposedly safe CCC was really violating. They were generally worried and disturbed, and Kellharin goaded them into taking the next step (you'll see in a few updates.)

- I love chaos beasts. I'll have to advance one and see how they do. I threw normal ones at them back during the trillith encounter 2 years ago, and it didn't really affect them.

- I love gibbering mouthers, too, but Sagiro used a giant one of those in his game, and I hate to duplicate efforts. 

- The layered spells were designed so that if a few of the high level spells were dispelled, the lower level spells would still be active. Also, I wanted to emphasize that Kellharin and company meant serious business.

Of course, that maximized dispel magic wand (introduced during the al quith adventure as a rules error on my part) stripped everything away. Only a few more charges left in it, though!


----------



## Ashy

Hurmph...  And the man tells *me* that he doesn't like using layered templates....    I guess not - layered spells are far more EEEVVVVVILLLLLLL.....  

Awesome, Pkitty!    Oh yea, look for an email full o' idears soon!


----------



## DoctorB

I have been giving out full experience to my players so they have risen quickly to be the world-shakers I wanted them to be.  Now I am not sure if I should throttle back on the exp or see what happens when they catch up to the Defenders in another year or so.  Then I would have need of all the wacky-powerful enemies you throw at your guys.

If you agree with Galfridus, then the DoD casting nondetection on everyone should make scrying considerably more difficult.  Combine that with Screen and they should be pretty safe (at the cost of a dozen spells or so a day...).
Alternatively, I guess Valendo could cast a Miracle and pay the exp to try and make the castle immune to Scrying, or at least have a permanent non-detection on the whole place.


----------



## Piratecat

DoctorB said:
			
		

> *If you agree with Galfridus, then the DoD casting nondetection on everyone should make scrying considerably more difficult.  Combine that with Screen and they should be pretty safe (at the cost of a dozen spells or so a day...).
> Alternatively, I guess Valendo could cast a Miracle and pay the exp to try and make the castle immune to Scrying, or at least have a permanent non-detection on the whole place. *




Thirty dwarves =  a whole passle of _nondetections_. And the _Castle_ is new every time the spell gets cast, so they'd have to research an entirely new spell to make it scrying-proof. _Miracle_ won't cut it.


----------



## Caliber

I believe there is a Psionic power called Remote View Trap, but since Tomtom is currently incapacitated I guess he can't use it. If I remember right, it allows opposed checks if anyone tries to scry into the spells area (which lasts 24 hours) and if the caster (of the Remote View Trap) wins, the scry not only fails, but the scry's caster takes damage.

Pretty useful really.

And very cool monster. I love it!


----------



## Greybar

So Kellharin is at least 20th level, hmm...  (5 spell immunities = 1 per 4 caster levels)

The Defenders are going to really enjoy when they finally get a shot at him.  But I love that the confrontation will likely signal the end of the arc...

John


----------



## Jeremy

Black Puddings are so nasty.  With the right templates the become immune to everything and regenerate.

Toss one in a blade barrier and watch it divide and take over the country.  

Very evocative description for the nasty nasty.  Very cool way to look at him.


----------



## Samnell

Sluuth is the awesomest monster I've seen in months. I wish I had a high level party to use it on. Maybe if the poor bastards I'm about to start RttToEE for live through it...


----------



## JacktheRabbit

Sounds like the DoD will be forced to use the ultimate in perfect home defense.

Every night Velendo casts a Comfortable Castle INSIDE a spherical Sovereign Wall.

That should block all scry and gate tricks.

Of course it expends Velendo's most powerful Wall spell every day but I think it would be worth it.


----------



## Piratecat

Doc, you're a clever monkey. He's planning on the reverse, though; casting a spherical _sovereign wall_ inside of a _Calphas' Comfy Castle_. Until further notice, the CCC has only one huge room, in the hopes that Agar's _detect scrying_ will pick up any scrying attemnts while they're in there. Pretty clever, really.


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot

Small note from a lurker, Kellharin I'm guessing would have to be less than 20th level actually, Protection from Arrows grants only DR 10/+4 under the Sluuth's spell block (it could have been cast by another however), suggesting he is 17th-19th level wizard or sorceror (18th at least if sorceror) due to his gate spell.

I love all these monsters btw (and especially the Story Hour) , Kellharin seems very interesting, I'm excited to see his stats eventually.

wohoo, got the courage to post  /lurkingmode on again


----------



## Piratecat

Sollir, with 2000+ posts, I can tell you're a lurker.  

The vast array of spells were actually laid on by four spellcasters, two arcane and two divine, of differing levels. As for Kellharin himself, you'll learn more about him in the next few updates.


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot

Heh, mostly just a lurker for your storyhour, its been over a year since I starting reading them   In fact, that's what brought me over from the WotC boards to ENWorld, keep up the good work! ...maybe i'll try to contribute some evil critter sometime too


----------



## JacktheRabbit

Why would they do it in the reverse? A Sovereign Wall should block all spell lines of effect so there is nothing getting into one of those so why not cast the Castle inside and at least let everyone sleep in comfort.

Would not the Sovereign Wall also block all scrying attempts through it?




			
				Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Doc, you're a clever monkey. He's planning on the reverse, though; casting a spherical sovereign wall inside of a Calphas' Comfy Castle. Until further notice, the CCC has only one huge room, in the hopes that Agar's detect scrying will pick up any scrying attemnts while they're in there. Pretty clever, really. *


----------



## Ziggy

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Here are Sluuth's stats without any buffing spells.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Sluuth			Fiendish Advanced Black Pudding (with no buffing spells)*



Piratecat, was my Pudding smack an inspiration for Sluuth ( see http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10188), or did we just have a very similar idea ? 

.Ziggy

[BTW, how to you find the right link to individual posts ?]


----------



## DoctorB

For Doc's point, I am guessing that since the Castle creates an extra-dimensional space, you could not cast the Sovereign Wall outside of it because the wall would be on the Prime while the inside of the Castle is in its own dimension (or the astral).


----------



## JacktheRabbit

The only entrance to the Castle though is located on the Prime and sealed off by the Sovereign Wall. 

I guess it can go either way on whether you can still Gate into the Castle. 




			
				DoctorB said:
			
		

> *For Doc's point, I am guessing that since the Castle creates an extra-dimensional space, you could not cast the Sovereign Wall outside of it because the wall would be on the Prime while the inside of the Castle is in its own dimension (or the astral). *


----------



## Piratecat

Ziggy, I didn't even SEE your pudding smackdown, darn it! Similar ideas, I guess.  

Doc Moriarty, DoctorB has it right.  The CCC exists on another plane. If you have a CCC cast within a SW, no one can get into the area on the prime near the CCC's magical entrance point, but it won't stop anyone from getting into the CCC itself via a direct gate; that extradimensional area is not influenced by the SW one way or another.  

However, if you have SW cast within the CCC itself, it should stop anyone from gating in to the extradimensional space (assuming that SW stops gate, which hasn't yet been proven.)  It probably won't stop scrying attempts either way, though.


----------



## Nail

*follow core rulez wit' th' ooze?*

I'm just wonderin' if th' fiendish ooze can be resurrected.  As an outsider, it can't be...but PC is a RBDM........he's gonna resurrect th' UD bad guys, after all.


----------



## Knight Otu

That ooze is still an ooze, not an outsider. He can still come back.


----------



## Piratecat

You guys notice? Tao planeshifted part of it to the Beastlands. Kellharin has already had someone retrieve it... it is his favorite pet, after all!   

It'll take a long time to regrow, though. He's less than half the ooze he used to be.


----------



## Jeremy

Of course that poor schmuck got the "And Jack..  Remember..  You *wheeze* are my number one *wheeze* guy."

Oh, and if you see any 40 ft. unicorns, run.


----------



## Fade

They _could_ planeshift to the beastlands every night, teleport to a specific area, and have Velendo _gate_ them back in the morning. Means no Miracle, but they do get a single stationary area they can centralise all their defences on (like that one casting of _forbiddance_).


----------



## Fade

Also, if it's Kelharin's favourite pet, why does he have only one of it? Get some ghouls to chop at it for a bit, exponential growth as each bit splits, *hundreds* of the things. They'd all be small, but 100 puddings should be able to put on more kilograms/day between them than just one - greater surface area for osmosis. You'd need to feed it a lot, but with all the overrunning the White Kingdom is doing that shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## JacktheRabbit

That would not be a good idea.

You still have to feed all those Puddings. I would imagine that one of the great weaknesses of the White Kingdom is feeding itself. Imagine feeding tens of thousands of ghouls each day. Then add in the Ghasts, Vampires, and any other undead in their midst that have to feed. The strain on the Kingdom must be severe at times.





			
				Fade said:
			
		

> *Also, if it's Kelharin's favourite pet, why does he have only one of it? Get some ghouls to chop at it for a bit, exponential growth as each bit splits, hundreds of the things. They'd all be small, but 100 puddings should be able to put on more kilograms/day between them than just one - greater surface area for osmosis. You'd need to feed it a lot, but with all the overrunning the White Kingdom is doing that shouldn't be a problem. *


----------



## Nail

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *You guys notice? Tao planeshifted part of it to the Beastlands. Kellharin has already had someone retrieve it... it is his favorite pet, after all! *




Gah!

Can't believe I missed that.

DOD are gonna have one heck of a final battle, aren't they ....look at all o' th' old friends!


----------



## Nail

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> *That ooze is still an ooze, not an outsider. He can still come back. *




Nope.  He's an outsider.  That's what comes with the fiendish template....right?  And if not...*What's up wit' that?!*


----------



## Knight Otu

Nail said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Nope.  He's an outsider.  That's what comes with the fiendish template....right?  And if not...What's up wit' that?! *



I think you are mixing the fiendish creature and half-fiend templates. 

The half-fiend becomes an outsider, the fiendish creature becomes a magical beast at best.


----------



## wolff96

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *You still have to feed all those Puddings. I would imagine that one of the great weaknesses of the White Kingdom is feeding itself. Imagine feeding tens of thousands of ghouls each day. Then add in the Ghasts, Vampires, and any other undead in their midst that have to feed. The strain on the Kingdom must be severe at times. *




Okay, Vampires HAVE to feed.

Does any other type of undead truly NEED to feed, though? I mean, they're undead. Some undead have abilities powered by feeding, or become stronger from feeding, but I always thought that ghouls, ghasts, and other things that go bump in the night LIKE to feed on the living but don't actually need to do so.

Of course, I suppose that depends somewhat on PCs view of the world and it's ecology.

Which reminds me, PC... Are the True Ghouls willing to give up all living allies and all the vampires? I mean, if they wipe the surface of the world clean of the living to ensure their survival, then what will they eat? The animals will all die out or be transformed rather quickly... Especially under the weight of a White Kingdom that has expanded to fill the entire globe!


----------



## Greybar

> I think you are mixing the fiendish creature and half-fiend templates.




Imagine if Sluuth had been a half-fiend, and was granted a Wis boost from 1 to 8... then he'd be tossing around Blasphemy, Destruction, Horrid Wilting ...

ick

John


----------



## Nail

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> *The half-fiend becomes an outsider, the fiendish creature becomes a magical beast at best. *




What!?   Time t' go home an' look it up in th' MM.


But think about it: a fiendish creature is not from th' infernal realms, i.e. an outsider?  Your _what_ hurts?


----------



## Knight Otu

Look here: http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd/srdmonsterstemplates.html

Being from an outer plane does not neccessarily mean you are an outsider, it just means you are extraplanar.


----------



## Piratecat

Yeah, yeah, wuttever.    I wasn't too worried about all the baggage that went along with it, I just wanted the neat special effects and cool resistances.  *grin*


----------



## Xarlen

Two questions about Sluuth.

First, did all the splitted ones have the buff spells on them, too? Even nastier when you throw down a Blade Barrier. 

Second, how did it find enemies if it has Blindsight AND silence cast on it? Wouldn't that blind it?


----------



## Piratecat

Xarlen, I decided the spells would have split along with the creature. It turns out that it never mattered, because the spells were dispelled before it split, but I figured that this made for a much more interesting encounter.

As for the blindsight, that never even occurred to me! But in retrospect, I'd figure that it doesn't have ears OR eyes, so it must hunt by scent. Thus, the silence doesn't matter. Seem reasonable?


----------



## Knight Otu

Not only reasonable, but also rules compliant:

from the SRD:


> Blindsight (Ex): An ooze’s entire body is a primitive sensory organ that can ascertain prey by scent and vibration within 60 feet.




Ok, Ok, I'll shut up now


----------



## Xarlen

Ah.  I allways attributed Blindsight (usually atleast) to sound. Although I imagine there are critters that have hairs on their body that register vibrations, and such.

Cool.


----------



## Piratecat

In an email the other day, I was asked how long my prep time was for games. I thought I'd answer here.

In general, I do very little prep time. We play once every two weeks, and I probably noodle over ideas for 2-3 hours before each game. I do my best thinking in the shower or while driving, and that usually relates to general plot arcs or cool scenes.  Things are seldom written down other than cryptic notes scribbled on notepads.  As a result, I've lost some really good ideas, but I remember most of the good ones, thank goodness.

Lately, with the high-combat nature of the underdark, I've become a little more dilligent. I've always used Jamis Buck's NPC generator (best utility ever) to make on-the-fly combat stats, but recently I've put a lot of time into learning how to correctly advance monsters. As a result, it's been a bit time consuming, but I've gotten better at it. I have a word file full of bad guy notes, and I just print out the correct page or two before each game. Writing something like Sluuth took me maybe an hour, and creating the Excel map of the CCC took me about 2 hours total. Well worth it, IMO.

I've always designed by the "cool scene" method. I think of a neat visual - giant pulsing creature, fight on huge bridge, clambering up under a waterfall - and then build an adventure that will probably lead the PCs to that scene. If I'm lucky, I've imagined the scene in a modular enough fashion that I can move it from plot thread to plot thread, depending on what the PCs decide to pursue.

When I'm trying to come up with a cool scene, I often sit there and run through possibilities. When I hit the right one, there is often a palpable "clicking" as the pieces fall into place. It's really weird!  That's how I know I've hit it, though; it's like finding a puzzle's corner piece that makes assembling the rest of the puzzle much easier. Anyone else have this happen?

Anyways, I'm babbling. Hope this helped!


----------



## DoctorB

Interesting that you don't use many notes.
I also do most of my thinking when I am doing other things:  walking, driving, sitting in the airport.  The difference is that I MUST have my idea notebook with me or closeby or I will lose 3/4 of my ideas.

I need to use the "cool scene" method more since the few times I have, it has come out great.

I would also like to be a lot better at advancing monsters, but I need more basic help.  My tactical combat abilities are not the best, and I am not sure how to get better.  

Do you study the bad guys' special abilites before a session or do you just know them well enough to wing it.  Do you have combat actions planned out ahead of time?


----------



## Piratecat

DoctorB, I was just thinking about you and Joy. I'm sitting on the back porch in the fall sunlight, drinking coffee and procrastinating. Miss you guys! (FYI: DrB and I have been good friends for... what, 6 or 7 years? Distance is no obstacle!   )  Anyways....

*>  I MUST have my idea notebook with me or closeby or I will lose 3/4 of my ideas.*

This really is a good idea, I think. My sneakiness has gotten worse since my Palm Pilot broke.

*>  My tactical combat abilities are not the best, and I am not sure how to get better.  *

*Trick number one: *use the environment. The DMG mentions that if a normal fight is exciting, a fight on a narrow bridge over lava is REALLY cool. Use this to your advantage. Add movement penalties for mud, or balance checks for rough ground. This is especially crucial for high level PCs, who are used to commanding the battlefield.  Then occasionally use this to the monsters' advantage. Hard to hurt something if you can't reach it.

I have this image of a red dragon swimming in lava, just surfacing long enough to breath on the PCs before re-submerging, using the lava as partial cover.

*Trick number two: *don't let your players metagame. Take a monster's normal stats and completely change its appearance. Add abilities they won't expect - long tongues, pouncing attacks, that sort of thing.  Keep 'em guessing, and you keep them excited.

*Trick number three:* Learn from the players. Have your enemies flank, use buffing spells, retreat, heal each other.  Have retreating enemies lead PCs into ambushes or traps. Separate the PCs with spells or traps and attack partial parties. When appropriate, use disposable potions and scrolls ("Hey! Stop drinking that; when we kill you, it would have been ours!") to give enemies fun abilities that don't introduce permanent game-inbalancing magic items.

*> Do you study the bad guys' special abilites before a session or do you just know them well enough to wing it.  Do you have combat actions planned out ahead of time? *

When they're complicated, I'll study them to look for synergies. I try to only plan out specific combat techniques when the bad guys are expecting a battle. Otherwise, I'm more likely to wing it.


----------



## Grim

Pirate Cat:

Could you post the spell description for Sovergn wall, or at least tell me where it is. It keeps getting mentioned, but I dont actually know exactly what it does... thanks

Grim


----------



## Greybar

> This really is a good idea, I think. My sneakiness has gotten worse since my Palm Pilot broke.




My heartfelt sympathies.  My Palm has become my official GM notebook, surpassing my home computer.  It gets sync'd to the computer, of course, and most of the writing happens on a computer in the Palm Desktop.  Wonderful thing.

The other thing is that the Palm's memopad has no formating.  This is a blessing, not a lack of features.  I'm sure we all know how much time you can waste making the name of the badguy be in just the right bold font. [grin]

Anyway, my plug for the Palm is done.  I should buy some stock in that or somethin'.

John


----------



## Xarlen

Ryan Koppenhaver said:
			
		

> *You can see it on
> Velendo's character sheet.Speaking of which, where do Velendo's Protection from Evil, 1/week/level; Sanctuary, 1/day; and Wall of Calphas, 1/day abilities come from?  Are they just standard Calphasian perks, like the brick thing?  Are they related to him being a Proxy for Calphas? *




Here's where the Wall Domain can be found.


----------



## Nail

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> *Look here: http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd/srdmonsterstemplates.html*




Thanks!

*



			Being from an outer plane does not neccessarily mean you are an outsider, it just means you are extraplanar.


Click to expand...


*
.....riiiiiiiiight.  It all makes such perfect sense.

Not to pirate PC's thread anymore  , but:
     Seems like "outsider" should be a sort of "template" type, rather than a "stand-alone" type for a creature.  That is, this fiendish black pudding should be:  Outsider: Ooze.

And a celestial cat would be:  Outsider: animal

or whatever.

Not: Magical Beast .....sheeeesh!


----------



## tleilaxu

Hey PC, I know you have plenty of spare time to respond to people's individual requests, so here is one!

Your link to the DOD PCs date back to before they entered the temporal displacement plane and levelled up. Do you think you could find the current character sheets? (especially those for the characters who don't even have one, like Galthia)

thanks !


----------



## Ruined

I really like the various wall spells. I swiped the domain for Hedrada in Scarred Lands, since he is a lawful type, and is known to be a strong advocate of cities. And well, the stuff Velendo has done is so _cool._  =)


----------



## The Forsaken One

PC, you still got that True GHoul template around somewhere? The link which relayed to the site doesnt function anymore since the relocation of the boards.


----------



## Crowe9107

*Cavern of Suck*

An idea for you PC, I see it as pure death, I personally am not this mean to my players (Killer DMs are no fun), but I am in a bad mood today. Feel free to adjust to the capabilities of your party:

The Cavern of Suck:

Environment: A huge unlit cavern filled by an underground lake/pool, a mere 30-40' deep with about a 30-40' ceiling as well. As mentioned, dark, VERY putrid smelling (perpetual stinking cloud effect), and constantly filled with the angry buzzing of undead tainted flies (an annoying insect cloud that provides appropriate minuses to attacks, AC, and Saves).

The only obvious way to cross it is by "Ye old rickety footbridge of slime coated filth and slipperiness" (TM). Please make appropriate balance checks to avoid investigating the bottom of the lake which are increased in difficulty if you make alot of sudden movements.

Swimming is frowned upon by both "Ye old true ghoul aquatic monsters of big biting (gators, sharks, piranha or whatever tickles your boat, possible giving them a spring attack for a "bite on the move")" (TM), and the very nature of the lake, which is a writhing soupy mass of "Ye old undead-corrupted maggots of stomach unsettling and small biting" (TM) whose undead taint makes them crave living flesh rather than the dead rotting flesh that normal law-abiding maggots crave (suffer a 1d6 or so for every round immersed in this ickiness). And for the piece de resistance, a true ghoul roper colony that is both perched among the stalagtites above (and in this natural cover, it is quite possible to confuse and overestimate actual number of ropers) t and the floor of the lake (the "soup" making great cover and concealment for the bottom ropers) to assist you in the crossing of the bridge (and to snag you if you are so sensible as to try to fly across). It is quite possible that if you are quite resistant to the idea of being dragged anywhere that more than one flesh starved roper will vie for your affections and you could be subject to a rend attack as a ceiling roper and a lake bottom roper play tug of war with you. If you fear that your party will simply teleport across and miss all the fun, putting a warded door on the other side is recomended.

This whole thing is fairly dangerous, and probably a tad overboard on disgusting (please adjust to what you feel tasteful), as for creepy, I think the buzzing of the flies and the chittering and roiling of the "soup" is particularily disturbing, and if the ropers hold off their attack until the party reaches the middle, the sudden suprise of an attacking swarm of slimey paralytic tentacles ought to scare the bejeezus out of them (be sure to have a moment of silence before the attack to let them know with dread that SOMETHING is coming). You can enhance this by putting up a tenacious permanent darkness effect, but I think it is a bit much.

A resourceful party SHOULD be able to meet this threat, if they are quick on their feet, and more concerned with "getting the heck out of there" than "killing da monsters". The longer you spend in this death trap, the more likely you are to be dragged under and drown and eaten from multiple sources. This should be a big XP encounter, and might serve as a main line of defense for big bad guy. Oh yeah, and put some frickin lazer beams on their heads already...

Regards

Carl W. Rowe


----------



## Piratecat

tleilaxu, I was just speaking to Sagiro about that. We'll work on it!

Forsaken One, here's a copy of the true ghoul template:

http://home.gwi.net/~rdorman/frilond/rul/dm/ghoul.htm

Crowe, you're a bad, bad man. I may change it to undead mutated sea bass, because it's a deadly idea. This sort of thing would occur either (a) when the bad guys KNOW the PCs are coming, or (b) as you said, a final line of defense. I especially like the flies and unliving water. 

Odd... I was thinking about undead ropers just the other day, as I decided that it was too early to use them.

Update when I can manage it; family stuff and other responsibilities are currently coming first!


----------



## Sidran

Ok PC rulify this Cool scene Idea and I will give you three cookies


The PC's enter a large room roughly 120 ft by 80 Ft. that is gilt in Gold, Mithril, and Platinum reliefs of ancient battles, and sieges. 
On the floor 4d20 Life size highly detailed Golden Orcs bow with fist to forehead towards a Giant statue of an evilly grining elve with wild hair. In his forehead a Diamond about the size of a Buckler in diameter sits in the statues third eye. 

The Characters enter the room and get at least 15 feat from the door before a delayed presure traped door closes and shuts in the Party. The Floor sinks 30 ft downwards revealing a firery crimson band that runs the length of the room. 
The Diamond in the Giant statues eye begins to glow a firery red, and then suddenly a young fair skinned elve stands ghostly before the statue facing the PC's 

The Ghostly Illusion says
"The Doom of Aravas Is upon you"

And then the bowing orcish statues rise mechanically in unison each drawing a shimmering blade and with metallic howls advance on the Party

Each of the Orcish Statues is an Animated Object that the characters must face until all are unmoving. 

While they fight, the Giant Statue rises up and begins moving towards the party ( thus revealing a stairwell that runs down into a Crypt that holds a sarcophogus that has a likeness similar to the Giant Statue.) The Statue draws out a massive Greatsword and begins attacking the Characters going for mages and ranged attackers first. ( It is truely a Golden Golem) 

The Characters will either try and run or they will face the Golem to its death. 

That is one I have been working on for a long time


----------



## The Forsaken One

Tnx Kitty~~~~

Btw you add +3 hp or +3hd when you change it's type to d12?

And any ECL?


----------



## Crowe9107

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Crowe, you're a bad, bad man. I may change it to undead mutated sea bass, because it's a deadly idea. This sort of thing would occur either (a) when the bad guys KNOW the PCs are coming, or (b) as you said, a final line of defense. I especially like the flies and unliving water.
> 
> Odd... I was thinking about undead ropers just the other day, as I decided that it was too early to use them.
> 
> Update when I can manage it; family stuff and other responsibilities are currently coming first! *




I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way. Are they ill-tempered sea bass....hmmm? I agree, quite deadly, there is a fairly fine line between "challenging" and TPK. My own players seem to like ECLs that are +2-4 (depends, ECLs are not all they are cracked up to be), for climatic battles, wherein they expend at least 80% party resources, these "dicey" battles are the ones they seem to remember and enjoy the most. Because of this, I tend to gloss over minor encounters unless I feel that party endurance is going to be an issue. 3e has certainly sped up combat, but I generally take the cinegraphic approach to pushing through the stormtroopers, focussing on the "cool scenes" and major encounters. It is most difficult to get it just right, you slowly have to probe the party's capabilities and ramp up the encounters (factoring in rest and expenditures) until you find out what's right for the party. If you start out with too much, too soon, you end up with monsters that suddenly remember that it is time for their coffee break in the middle of a battle or a TPK, which is no fun. As for the ropers...I think I am going to start wrapping my head in tin-foil, I come up with alot of ideas that suddenly appear elsewhere, it's all a conspiracy I tell you.


Re,

Carl Rowe


----------



## Xarlen

The only way I could improve the Room O' Nastiness, is throwing down some Descerates and Unhallows. 

Though, if *I* entered that room, I'd be sure to be throwing Fireball upon Lightningbolt upon Acid fog to clear all the ickiness outta there. *Shudder* Especially the flies.


----------



## Bronz Dragon

Xarlen said:
			
		

> *The only way I could improve the Room O' Nastiness, is throwing down some Descerates and Unhallows.
> 
> Though, if *I* entered that room, I'd be sure to be throwing Fireball upon Lightningbolt upon Acid fog to clear all the ickiness outta there. *Shudder* Especially the flies. *



  Eww.. Unhallow?  Desecrate?  In a room full of undead?  That would be just nasty.  

  But why not just throw a sonic meteor swarm, or equivalent?  Watch the little pests disintegrate in a wall of sound..  Uses up a high level spell slot, but what the hey, it'd be worth it


----------



## Nail

Bronz Dragon said:
			
		

> * But why not just throw a sonic meteor swarm, or equivalent?  Watch the little pests disintegrate in a wall of sound..  Uses up a high level spell slot, but what the hey, it'd be worth it   *




PC, these last few posts got me thinking (bad form, I know).

One of the problems with the afore mentioned "Room of Suck" is that th' PCs can deal with it/avoid it without being in the middle of it.  Like with th' *sonic meteor swarm* Bronz Dragon mentioned.

That's not necessarily bad.  The PCs should, more than once during their miserable little lives, be able to destroy/circumvent some of their major obstacles.  Maybe even in ways th' DM never anticipated.

PC, what would you say your ratio of _"plunged into th' middle"_ vs. _"PCs can see it coming"_ encounters is?  Do you think about this at all?   (Of course you do: Yer a super DM.....or is that supper DM.)  Your eager fan-boys wanna know.


----------



## Piratecat

Forsaken One, +3 HD. It helps compensate for the low BAB and lack of constitution.

Bronz Dragon, sonic meteor storm? I am SO stealing that! And it will give Nolin something to countersong....  

Sidran, thanks, but I'll probably pass on it. Golems aren't too tough for high lvl PCs, and I have a personal dislike for really complex death traps.    Well, manufactured death traps, anyways.

Nail, I think about that all the time. I try to let them dig their own holes, to hang them on their own petards. That way, they'll know that they chose the path that led them there. It makes for a less deterministic, less linear game if they can occasionally see threats and judge what to do with them before they ever really become dangerous.

That's exactly what happened last night, btw! I threw a non-combat encounter at them, and they've decided to turn it into a combat encounter. God help 'em. It'll be fun, though!  

I'll note that arcane sight and true seeing makes it VERY hard to disguise bad guys with spells like polymorph. A big change from lower levels, but not a bad one.


----------



## Enkhidu

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *...I'll note that arcane sight and true seeing makes it VERY hard to disguise bad guys with spells like polymorph. A big change from lower levels, but not a bad one. *




Aww shucks, P-cat - that just means you have to use villians with huge amounts of ranks in Disguise to mess with your players heads.

Assuming the bad guys are humanoid, of course, and you spin it right...


----------



## Piratecat

Yeah. But they noticed that damn dragon right away.

Oops! Did I say that out loud?    That was last night.  Don't mention it elsewhere.  Heh heh.


----------



## Xarlen

That's why you have the dragon put on a hat, and a mustache...


----------



## Ashy

Pkitty,

Back to your post about how you DM - Im the same way!!!  I do a bit more prep ('cause I'm bad with stats and have it picky players) but other than that, I just keep 'em GUESSIN!


----------



## the Jester

All right, now that the MM2 is out, how 'bout a monkish son- er, sorry, SPAWN- of Kyuss?

How 'bout a troupe of them?


----------



## Bronz Dragon

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Bronz Dragon, sonic meteor storm? I am SO stealing that! And it will give Nolin something to countersong....  *



Glad I could help  

I personally think energy substitution makes spells (and thus sometimes character levels) a lot harder to suss out until it's too late, much like your 'monster in disguise' RBDM thingy.

For instance, an Acid Lightning Bolt might LOOK like a Melf's Acid Arrow, until you take out the dice.   

Just one more way to keep your players guessing!!  I believe I am entitled to an evil grin  >D


----------



## Grim

I just thought of this.

Morghs are like freaky ghouls with paralysing tongues. So they sort of fit into the true ghoul thing. The only problem is that they have no ranged atttacks. So....

Take a morgh. Give it enough levels of fighter to qualify for the Lasher prestige class. Make it speciallze in whips, using 1 or 2 nasty evil paralyzing whips that look like part of its weird tongue intestine. Add levels of lasher, and voila! the Nasty Paralyzing Tongue monster skeleton thing!

Named Trixie!


----------



## Xarlen

What? No Death Knights?


----------



## the Jester

So from recent comments PC has made, I'm assuming there's a big nasty dragon fight coming up.  Let's give 'im some suggestions here!  Such as... snatch one of the DoD, teleport away and swallow him whole.  If the rest try to teleport to him or scry him out... hm.  Sucky place to teleport into, that's for sure!


----------



## Greybar

from the Story Hour -



> There’s a faint snapping sound that may be a bone, and Mara realizes that his strength is close to double her own.




And FIVE blows per round, and I'm guessing there's no haste involved here...

Scampering to find the DoD player listings and Mara's strength.

Edit - gulp, Mara has Str20 (+5 mod).  Should we hazard Kelharin in the upper thirties with an oh, let's say, +14 or so attack/dmg.  Ouch!

So, nasty-nasty lich?  What guesseth the roguish gallery?

John


----------



## Knight Otu

Death Knight, maybe?

Piratecat did ask for the source of this template some time ago.

As well as for the Tieflings. 

So, the Kellharian that made so many problems was not the real Kellharian, and only a trick to get this troublesome undead dwarf out of the way of the White Kingdom?


----------



## Ashy

I think that the dwarvish balenorn idea was a pretty good one...  But I'm still scratching my noggin' on it...


----------



## Xarlen

I like the Shadow Dragon/Undead suggestion.

Or, God forbid, a Draco-Lich.

Depends on what Color he's going to use, I guess?


----------



## Ashy

Hurm.... that would account for the massive strength.


----------



## Crowe9107

Ashy said:
			
		

> *Hurm.... that would account for the massive strength.   *




And the massive fear effect...


----------



## Greybar

I'll bite and expose my ignorance:

"Daddy, what's a balenorn?"

"Nothing dear, now go to sleep while Daddy gets out his Holy Avenger."

John


----------



## Ashy

A balenorn, in D&D terms, is an undead elf, but is generally, not evil.  Typically, they pass into unlife due to an oath to guard or protect a certain area, which they are then bound to forever.  So, they look undead and kinda act undead, but are not evil like most undead - a neat lil' trick to pull on the unsuspecting party...    I believe they were introduced in the Monsterous Compendium II, but I could be wrong about that.  

Historically, I think they have roots in Irish mythology, but I am too covered up in work right now to check.  If you are interested I can later though - just let me know!


----------



## Piratecat

Have you noticed that I'm not saying a thing, yet?  All will be made clear tomorrow.


----------



## Ashy

Yea, yea - just wait til I get MY OWN story hour, bucko!


----------



## Knight Otu

By my clock, it is "tomorrow" already, so give us the solution! 

What do you mean, not in the USA?

Excuses!


----------



## Nail

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Have you noticed that I'm not saying a thing, yet?  All will be made clear tomorrow.   *




<dope-slaps PC>

Wipe that silly grin off yer face!


----------



## Grim

this thread is just the coolist, so, without gilding the lillly, and with no more ado, I give you

BUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMPPP!


----------



## Piratecat

*Kellharin*

_The White Kingdom knows of the path, but the rotting dwarf is stalled by his own Kingdom’s defense._
-	Nolin’s legend lore on traveling through Tuz’Zud.

_Kellharin guards the ebon door, his evil stopped from doing more
Cursed to stay beyond the day the dwarves were forced to go their way._
	- Agar’s vision of the name Kellharin

Augury for Velendo:

_Does the wall tumble down when the mason falls from grace?
Can a tyrant build a gate that shields his peasants from attack?
Can a demon hate a devil, while a deva hates a fiend?
Do the colors of the standard ever change and change again?_

Kellharin is the fallen dwarven defender who guards the ebon door.  The Ebon Door lies at the bottom of Tuz’zud. It blocks the Gulf of Iklene, a bottomless abyss that borders closer to the lands of the ghouls. Tuz’zud was built to stop such creatures from gaining access to the upper world. Magically reinforced, the Door is the artifact which prevents such creatures from digging through the ground and coming up.  

Its success it tied to that of a Defender. The Defender was always chosen, and Kellharin was the last, a proud dwarven defender who considered it an honor. The Defender can never fall until the day he passes the responsibility on to another of his bloodline. Kellharin served, now tied to the citadel, until the day disease ravaged the dwarves and every other member of his bloodline died.  Every one.

Kellharin’s vows prohibited him from siring children, for if he did he would shatter the bonds that tied him to the door, and the door would not allow that. Eventually he lost his mind and hunted the other dwarves of the fortress. He chased them out, becoming the lone defender of the fortress. The Door fills him with power unimaginable so long as he protects the barrows. He now dreams of dying, of allowing the door to open and letting the ghouls through, but he can not. He will not, for that would make his centuries of pain all for naught. 

*The Ebon Door*

Powers include (but are not limited to): 

*Constant:* Prevents undead, abominations, or monstrous humanoids from entering the citadel or its environs. Magically hardens the nearby stone. Makes the Defender immune to physical or magical attacks from undead, abominations, or monstrous humanoids. For the Defender, it gives:

Stoneskin, 250 hp.
Iron body.variant: 25 pt reduction, +4
Fast healing 3 pts/round
SR 30
+10 bonuses to spot and listen


----------



## Jeremy

Rawr.

Take that dwarven ingenuity all you denizens of the deep...

Poor K.  Nothing he could have done.  All his family dies to a plague which he can't because he's immortal.  All his friends age and die, all their families age and die, even K dies, but still he's gotta stand there.

If that wouldn't drive even a dwarf insane, I don't know what would.


----------



## Piratecat

Yeah. I was all about tragic villains when I planned that; it would have made it that much bittersweet if they wasted him, weakening the Door. They're really trying to find him a replacement, though, which I think it totally cool.


----------



## Ryan Koppenhaver

It doesn't seem like a very noble act to sucker some poor hapless dwarf into taking the job, though.

You know what would be perfect for the job?  An inevitable!   Do the Defenders have any good contacts on Mechanus?  

(Hey, maybe they'll run into some marching modrons while they're there.)

[Edited for spelling]


----------



## Bronz Dragon

Ryan Koppenhaver said:
			
		

> *It doesn't seem like a very noble act to sucker some poor hapless dwarf into taking the job, though.
> *



 I would think that most dwarves would consider it an honor to defend their own kingdom from a horrible enemy like the White Kingdom, not to mention giving ol' Kelharin a break.  Besides, if the dwarves wanted to bring the city back to its former glory, then he'd have the easiest job!

"So all I have to do is stand in front of this door?"

"Yep"

"And I get all these special powers to help me fight anything that tries to get through here?"

"Yep"

"But I could end up like Kelharin?"

"Only if your entire family dies"

"Hehehe.."

"What's so funny about that?"

"I have seven brothers and sisters, whom each have seven kids"


----------



## Ashy

Question, PC - what makes someone "of the line of" another?  Does there have to be a blood tie?  If so, there should be a chance, however, slim, of finding a relative of Kellharin, right?


----------



## Piratecat

Ironically enough, when the last of Kellharin's line died - ie, he turned into undead - the Door would have accepted a new guardian from a different line. By then, though, he had stopped trying. He was convinced of the "rules" by then, and no one else knew any different.

So, it shouldn't be too hard if they can find a volunteer. Morrus, playing Splinder, almost volunteered himself. He may still do so, if he survives the adventure.

Plane Sailing is playing Priggle this week, so I finally statted him up. Turns out he's a rogue 7/gnomish combat miner (a Fiery Dragon PrC by Claudio) 5.  Who knew?


----------



## Bronz Dragon

*Priggle*

huh, I woulda figgered him for a bard..

Where would I .. er..  not look if I really didn't want to find that gnomish combat miner PrC?

 I really don't want to accidentally trip over it, so if you could possibly put up a link so won't put it into my browser by mistake, I'd appreciate it.


----------



## Piratecat

Priggle is their Svirfneblin guide, not the dwarvish jester/loremaster. Too many NPCs.... The gnomish combat miner is in the crunchy section of FDP's Counter Collection II (the one with lots of dragons.)  Well worth the money, in my opinion.  I don't think it's online anywhere.  I'll eventually post Priggle's stats here, and you can get a feel for it.


----------



## RangerWickett

Out of the same book, Pcat, you could make the Dwarf bard/loremaster a Red Smile Assassin.  I know it wouldn't fit, but hey, it's a prestige class for assassin jesters!  

Too bad bards aren't very usefu allies for an army of undead.  I don't know if I've ever seen an undead bard before.

My suggestion:  some time before this campaign ends, have the Piggy animate and attack them.  Just put the piggy on the battle mat, and have at them.  It gets bonuses based on how much change is in it.


----------



## Jeremy

Actually I'd rather see stats and stratics for the dragon the Defenders recently/will soon face...

Not before the story hour post of course, but as soon afterwards as possible...  I don't know how to bring in a really powerful dragon against a 17-19th level party without either a) getting dispatched in a couple of rounds, or b) dispatching the party in a couple of rounds.


----------



## Piratecat

Some friends have given me some sneaky plans in that regard, Jeremy, that are going to make the battle... interesting.  I'll post stats as soon as I post the story!


----------



## Nail

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Some friends have given me some sneaky plans in that regard, Jeremy, that are going to make the battle... interesting.  I'll post stats as soon as I post the story! *




...Can't wait!  Have at 'em!

(But "sneaky" taken with "DM" usually means PC fatalities, does it not?  Surely that leans towards option "b" of Jeremy's.........)


----------



## Skaros

When was the last PC death, anyway?  My memory fails me.


----------



## Citizen Mane

Didn't someone (a fighter type) die fighting the trillith or around that time?  As far as I can remember, that seems to be the last death that has been permanent...

Best,
tKL


----------



## Bronz Dragon

ach, ne'ermind

move along folks, nothing to see here


----------



## Infinite Monkey@Work

Having read through this thread, I thought I would tender this idea:

Skeleton Arrow
A skeleton arrow is actually a Tiny streamlined skeleton, with its clawed hands held above its head creating an arrowhead shape.

It can be fired like a normal arrow.  On a hit, it does normal arrow damage, and then gets out of arrow shape and attacks.  It gets an automatic grapple attempt and then (whether the attempt succeeds or not) attacks until destroyed.

On a successful critical hit, the skeleton is imbedded in the target.  Instead of the automatic grapple check, it starts tearing at the targets internal organs, doing 1 point of damage per round.  It continues doing this until pulled out (causing the target 1d6 damage), at which point it starts attacking whoever is holding it.

What sort of bonus equivalent would this be?  I rekon about +3, as a ball park.


----------



## Citizen Mane

I just scanned through my copy of the story hour, and Valdek was killed by the trillith — as for the others, that sounds reasonable enough (I didn't check) — but he wasn't willing to come back from the afterlife.  Has anyone else died?

Best,
tKL


----------



## JacktheRabbit

Agar was killed in a battle with the Dockside Royals on their ship in the harbor of Eversink. He was the victim of a nasty crossfire of lightning bolts.

He was of course later resurrected by Velendo in an elaborate ceremony at the local temple.


----------



## Elric

I seem to remember Malachite being killed by the Githzerai (or was is Githyanki?) in a fight on some other plane.  He was raised (by the phoenix who shares Nolin's soul, I think) soon after the fight.


----------



## Piratecat

Malachite was killed, but it was his astral form; his real body was fine!

Sigh. I tried tonight, I really did, but those sob's were sneaky. They actually used teamwork and tactics and scouts!  And it made all the difference in the world.


----------



## Ashy

Well, that is the good thing about gaming, PC - there's always NEXT SESSION!


----------



## Nail

Hoping fer that update of dragon stats, PC!


----------



## Kaodi

*Challenge*

It would seem to me that to challenge high-level groups you need to resort to strategies that involve less raw power and more ingenuity. PirateCat, you definately seem to keep your players on their toes. Playing with the language itself is always fun, and so is playing non-magical tricks. Who was it who came up with the wight dragon? (Wulf???) This is the perfect example of turning things on their head. Personally, I have very little experience as a DM (two games), but I aspire to ravage my players with monsters that are well within (and below) their own power level by being sneaky. PirateCat, being the DMing genius you are, probably have no problem with this sort of stuff... Little late to make suggestions for the dragon fight at this point, but I will wait for more idea to filter through the thread... Sorry for no paragraphing, hehehe... Until next time.


----------



## CRGreathouse

*Re: Challenge*



			
				Kaodi said:
			
		

> *Who was it who came up with the wight dragon?*




Andy Collins did; others may have done so independently.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/cg/cg20010727a


----------



## MDSnowman

I would simply do something evil like send a Zombie Dragon after the HEroes and have him act as a diversion with a guy with a quickened Impolsion memorized.


----------



## Kaodi

*Ponder*

*sigh*

I am forever mixing up peoples' name. Sorry Andy Collins, it was your wight dragon.

On another note, I wonder what you could do with ghoulish ogres... 

On another note, somewhere down the line it would be nice to have an encounter where the bad guys counter the Defenders holy energies with their own unholy energies, thus preventing mass destruction by turning and positive energy.

On another note, I hope you have something deliriously evil planned for this year around Hallowe'en.

On another note, what to do with those damn ogres...

On another note, since ogres are big and strong, and ghoulish ogres ought to be almost as big and every bit as strong and stronger, you could use an ogre " football team " ! Now, now, before you dismiss this idea as being completely lame (and I wouldn't blame you, I am beginning to lose my mind again), consider the sort of fun you could have if you could succesfully charge, bull rush and grapple the Defenders before they had a chance to use their holy powers. A ghoulish ogre shaman carrying a staff with a darkskull attached, casting spells to either strength his team or make it more difficult for the Defenders (I guess he would be the coach, hehe). 

On another note, I am sure you are getting tired of notes, so I will say good-bye for now. Looking forward to any feedback.

-Kaodi


----------



## kibbitz

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *Out of the same book, Pcat, you could make the Dwarf bard/loremaster a Red Smile Assassin.  I know it wouldn't fit, but hey, it's a prestige class for assassin jesters!
> 
> Too bad bards aren't very usefu allies for an army of undead.  I don't know if I've ever seen an undead bard before.
> 
> My suggestion:  some time before this campaign ends, have the Piggy animate and attack them.  Just put the piggy on the battle mat, and have at them.  It gets bonuses based on how much change is in it. *




Hmm, thing is, couldn't you have a variant on bard performances skewed towards the negative side of things? Horrible haunting songs of the failures and corruption of past would-be heroes, sapping the morale and determination of the PCs, dirges which wound the spirit of our heroes... makes for an interesting duel, if there's any bards with the heroes, Song, CounterSong, continuously, while the battle rages on...

You don't have to buff the zombies, you can sap our heroes


----------



## Kaodi

*Class Levels*

How often do you give your big bad monsters characters levels, PirateCat? I've often thought that if a creature like a dragon gains power through aging, often enough a more industrious wyrm might come along and actively improve their skills and abilities (who knows, maybe you did this with the dragon the Defenders just fought). A big nasty dragon doesn' t necessarily have to be bigger to be nastier once you add in some levels in fighter, cleric, wizard, etc, etc, etc.


----------



## Piratecat

Interesting question. The dragon they fought was straight dragon, no special levels... but then look at something like the trillith, with psion levels aplenty.  Usually my humanoid beasties have levels, the rest don't.

I'll post Kellharin on here once I dig up his full stats.

More goodness coming, too. Is a 16th-19th lvl dungeon crawl an option?  Find out!  As soon as life calms down a bit, I'll finish the next update and post Kellharin.


----------



## Ashy

PC, is this the bit that you asked me about?    I hope so!!!


----------



## Ashardalon

Looking forward to the Dragon battle, as you surely understand!


----------



## rackabello

kibbitz said:
			
		

> *Hmm, thing is, couldn't you have a variant on bard performances skewed towards the negative side of things? Horrible haunting songs of the failures and corruption of past would-be heroes, sapping the morale and determination of the PCs, dirges which wound the spirit of our heroes... makes for an interesting duel, if there's any bards with the heroes, Song, CounterSong, continuously, while the battle rages on...
> *




I homebrewed a critter along this line recently. Being a fey, it's not all that germane to the Defenders current situation, but maybe you all will enjoy it:

Rhyme Stealer (Comments are welcome.)

Love the behind the scenes glimpses, Piratecat.  Any chance of seeing the "supporting cast" NPCs -- Splinder, Glibstone, that deep gnome scout (name?).


----------



## Piratecat

> Any chance of seeing the "supporting cast" NPCs -- Splinder, Glibstone, that deep gnome scout (name?).




Great idea!  Priggle's prestige class is by our own Claudio Stampas, and is featured in Fiery Dragon's Creature Collection 2.  As a rule, Svirfneblin are fairly depressed, and Priggle is a fine example. He's convinced that nothing will go right, that his people are doomed, and that everyone has it in for him. He belittles his own abilities, and (partially due to his feats _low key_ and _contemptible target_) people usually never take him seriously or believe his competence. It continually irritates him.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name:  Priggle Gembreath, gnome (svirfneblin) Rogue 7, gnome combat miner 6
Alignment:  Chaotic good
Height:  3' 3", Weight 43 lbs. + gear 

Strength:		11 (+0)
Dexterity:		20 (+5)
Constitution:	15 (+2)
Intelligence:	14 (+2)
Wisdom:		17 (+3)
Charisma:	07 (-2)

Hit Points:	84		
Armor Class:	29  (+5 Dex, +1 Size, +4 Natural, +4 Dodge, +2 competence, +3 armor)
Speed:	20 ft.
Initiative:	+5 (+5 Dex)

Saving Throws: 
Fortitude:	+11 (+7 Base, +2 Con, +2 Racial)
Reflex:	+14 (+7 Base, +5 Dex, +2 Racial)
Will:	+9 (+4 Base, +3 Wis, +2 Racial)

Attack Bonuses:							Sneak attack: +4d6
Melee:	+14/+9/+4  (+11 Base, +1 Size, +2 competence)
Ranged:	+19/+14/+9 (+11 Base, +5 Dex, +1 Size, +2 competence)
+1 crossbow:	+20, 1d8+1 (19-20)
+2 gnome hooked hammer: +17/+12/+7 or +15/+10/+5 & +15, 1d6+4 (x3)/1d4+4 (x4)*
 * any strength bonus is 1.5x normal
Languages:  Common, drow, gnome, orc, terran, undercommon

Skills Points: 
Climb	+19	(+7 Rank, +0 Str, +10 enhancement, +2 competence)
Diplomacy	+1	(+1 Rank, -2 Cha, +2 competence)
Gather information	+6	(+6 Rank, -2 Cha, +2 competence)
Hide	+36	(+11 Rank, +5 Dex, +2 Racial, +4 Size, +10 enh., +2 feat, +2 comp.)
Intuit direction	+17	(+12 Rank, +3 Wis, +2 competence)
Jump	+13	(+6 Rank, +0 Str, +5 enhancement, +2 competence)
Knowledge (architecture & engineering)	+18	(+14 Rank, +2 Int, +2 competence)
Knowledge (underdark)	+18	(+14 Rank, +2 Int, +2 competence)
Listen	+15	(+10 Rank, +3 Wis, +2 competence)
Move silently	+17	(+10 Rank, +5 Dex, +2 competence)
Perform	+1	(+1 Rank, -2 Cha, +2 competence)
Profession (miner)	+13	(+8 Rank, +3 Wis, +2 competence)
Search	+14	(+10 Rank, +2 Int, +2 competence)
Spot	+16	(+11 Rank, +3 Wis, +2 competence)
Swim	+5	(+3 Rank, +2 competence)



Feats:
•	Exotic weapon proficiency (gnome hooked hammer)
•	Weapon focus (gnome hooked hammer)
•	Sagely (all knowledge skills are class skills) 
•	Low key (+2 to disguise & hide checks; look plain & normal)
•	Contemptible target (enemies ignore you until you attack)


Class Abilities:
Dual hammer, home below +2, weak spots +3d6, uncanny dodge (dex bonus to AC, cannot be dodged), master of the hooked hammer, no object too hard 10, destabilize, deconstruction

• _Dual Hammer (Ex): When wielding the gnome hooked hammer as a double weapon, the Combat Miner fights as if she possessed the Ambidexteriry and Two-Weapon Fighting feats, incurring only a -2 penalty on her attacks.

• Home Below (Ex): The Combat Miner's familiarity with moving, working, and Fghting underground, whether in natural (i.e.,
a cavern, a burrow) or worked (i.e., a dungeon) environments, grants her the listed competence bonus to AC, attack rolls, and skill checks. This extraordinary ability is not active when the Combat Miner is simply indoors.

• Weak Spots (Ex): Owing to her extensive knowledge of mining and structures, the Combat Miner adds the indicated amount of extra damage whenever attacking or attempting in some way to damage an object.

• Master of the Hooked Hammer (Ex): At 3rd level, the Combat Miner gains the Weapon Specialization feat for the gnorne hooked hammer. If she already took this feat for this weapon, the bonuses stack.

• No Object Too Hard (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, the Combat Miner gains the extraordinary ability to ignore the hardness rating of an object when attempting to attack it. At 3rd level, therefore, the Combat Miner's attacks against objects ignore a hardness rating of 5 or less and deal damage normally.  At 6th level, the Combat Miner's attacks against objects ignore a hardness rating of 10 or less and deal damage normally, and at 9th level her attacks ignore a hardness rating of l5 or less and deal damage normally.

• Destabilize (Sp): Upon reaching 4th level, the Combat Miner gains the spell-like ability to affect the consistency of earth- and stone-based structures in a manner equivalent to the soften earth and stone spell, although she can affect worked as well as natural earth and stone. She can use this ability a number of times per day equal to her Intelligence modifier.

• Deconstruction (Ex): At 6th level, the Combat Miner gains the extraordinary ability to inflict critical hits upon objects._


Spell-Like Abilities: Svirfneblin have no special skill with or resistance to illusions, but they can use blindness, blur, and change self each once per day. These abilities are as the spells cast by a wizard of the svirfneblin’s character level (save DC 10 + spell level).

Nondetection (Su): Svirfneblin have a continuous nondetection ability as the spell.

Svirfneblin Traits (Ex): These are in addition to the basic gnome traits, except where noted here.
• Stonecunning: Like dwarves, svirfneblin receive a +2 racial bonus to checks to notice unusual stonework. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A deep gnome who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a check as though actively searching and can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A svirfneblin can also intuit depth, sensing the approximate distance underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up.
• Darkvision up to 120 feet.
• Spell resistance of 11 + character level.
• +2 racial bonus to all saving throws (already figured in).
• +4 dodge bonus against all creatures (no special bonus against giants) (already figured in).
Skills: Svirfneblin receive a +2 racial bonus to Hide checks, which improves to +4 in darkened areas underground.


Magic items:

Cloak of Stoneblending (+10 to hide)
Boots of Leaping (+5 to Jump) 
Gloves of Climbing (+10 to climb) 
Potion of endurance
Potion of bull’s strength
2 potions of cure serious wounds (3d8+5)
2 potions of invisibility
+1 Light Crossbow
+2 gnomish hooked hammer (both heads enchanted)
+1 leather armor (old & battered)

Gear:
Not much, but all the important things that you can easily carry on your body.


----------



## Piratecat

rackabello said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I homebrewed a critter along this line recently. Being a fey, it's not all that germane to the Defenders current situation, but maybe you all will enjoy it:
> 
> Rhyme Stealer (Comments are welcome.)*




Very cool!  I'll probably use a vartiation of the rhyme stealing power against Nolin.  Thanks!


----------



## Pyske

(possible spoilers ahead, but only guesses)



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *Too bad bards aren't very useful allies for an army of undead.  I don't know if I've ever seen an undead bard before.*




Bards aren't good allies for the undead?  Why do I have a funny suspicion you'll be revising that opinion whenever the Defenders finally meet Telay again...



> _Originally posted in the Zip File at the beginning of the story hour _
> *Velendo casts discern location to find Telay, and discovers that she is deep underground in the Underdark. Worried, he does a sending to her, and she reports back that she is thoroughly enjoying herself and experiencing all kinds of new sensations. She sends her love to Nolin, not seeming angry, and promises to see him soon. This seems a bit out of character for the hard-bitten Telay, but they shrug and are pleased to know that she is alive and well.*




That doesn't sound ominous to anyone else?  Have they dealt with Telay somewhere that I missed?

You know, good old Telay, who studied spellcasting under the lich, Hagiok.  Who was also investigating the White Kingdom.  Who was a former lover of Nolin (whose relationships, as we all know, never cause him any trouble).

That Telay.

 . . . . . . . -- Eric

PS -- Who could it be who would be clever enough to manipulate the Defenders, but would still find it entertaining to send wine and flowers to the Defenders.  What class would make the best "Puppetmaster"?


----------



## Axeboy

Pyske said:
			
		

> *  *SNIP*
> 
> That Telay.
> 
> . . . . . . . -- Eric
> 
> PS -- Who could it be who would be clever enough to manipulate the Defenders, but would still find it entertaining to send wine and flowers to the Defenders.  What class would make the best "Puppetmaster"? *




Wow...

ummm....

wow.

If this is the case, hats off to PC for being such a rat-bastard, and to Pyske for figuring it out on so few clues.

In fact, even if it's not the case, hats off to Pyske for a darn good 'conspiracy theory'.


----------



## Nail

Pyske said:
			
		

> *.....That Telay.
> *




Ouch.  I missed that.  Good catch, Pyske.  I guess the ghouls are even in Nolin's bed......

IS NOTHING SACRED!!!!!


----------



## Ryan Koppenhaver

> uncanny dodge (dex bonus to AC, cannot be dodged)




Wow, can't be dodged?  I want a class ability like that!


----------



## oliverhenshaw

OK, this feat...

Deconstruction (Ex): At 6th level, the Combat Miner gains the extraordinary ability to inflict critical hits upon objects.

..does it apply to constructs and/or undead?  Which book is this in* - I've an interest in options for this type of character if I ever restart my campaign.


Secondly, Telay.. Unless Ive missed something, there's only been indirect references to her, like the one quoted above.  Has she turned up in any of the Defenders of Daybreak threads?

* I know I've seen the answer to this within the last two weeks, but just can't place it.


----------



## Ryan Koppenhaver

> Priggle's prestige class is ... featured in Fiery Dragon's Creature Collection 2.


----------



## Capellan

Nail said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Ouch.  I missed that.  Good catch, Pyske.  I guess the ghouls are even in Nolin's bed......
> 
> IS NOTHING SACRED!!!!!*




Well, certainly not Nolin's bed.  I get the feeling that's more at the _profane_ end of the scale to be honest - with or without Ghouls


----------



## Piratecat

Whoops! "Dodge" should be "flanked," of course.  My apologies.

Telay was a tiefling bard who trained Nolin in Sigil. They've had an on-again, off-again love affair since then (about six years game time.)  She was last seen studying with Nolin at the library of Hagiok the lich.  Nolin was charmed and mostly drained by two of Hagiok's vampire necromancer students. As far as he remembers, she got disgusted with him and left.

Uh huh.  

Don't bring this up elsewhere; when she shows up, I want it to be something of a surprise.


----------



## Negative Zero

O
M
G

thank is so freakin ... _bastardly_!
kudos to Pyske tho  

~Neg


----------



## Kaodi

*Dragon(s)*

Hey, PirateCat. Is it one dragon or two?


----------



## Piratecat

Eh? Just one. Although I might animate the corpse.  

I'll post stats once the fight starts.


----------



## Kaodi

*Challenge*

PirateCat, I am itching to see what happens in this battle. If this is as bad as it is, I want even more to see the final, climactic encounter, hehehe...

Just wondering too... how much do you appreciate the ideas that people post here? Do you consider many of them for future battles?


----------



## Mathew_Freeman

Hello all. Great thread.

I have a small idea for everyone. I've been reading the Quintessential Wizard, and there is a great deal in there on Wizards with spells with very different visual effects. This has been a long standing interest of mine, and I just wanted to mention it here.

Combine this with feats like _Energy Substitution_ and suddenly you've got an ordinary wizard throwing spells the party can't identify at them. Good for atmosphere and scariness without affecting power!


----------



## Piratecat

Tallarn, YOINK!

Kaodi, are you kidding? I freakin' love this thread. My DMing strategy has always been predicated on borrowing good ideas from everywhere around me, such as published modules, fiction, and the real world. With you folk, this gets remarkably easier, because you think of things that I never would. _(And with luck, you're borrowing from me, as well.)_

This might not always be obvious, though, because for all the good things I can say about my game it doesn't go *fast*.  Plot often takes quite a while to spin itself out. But as long as you want to give me ideas, I'd be honored to learn from them and take bits and pieces. Have I said thanks recently?  If not, I should.


----------



## Piratecat

*Spells in red are active during combat.*  I just noted a mistake or two, as well, but it will give you an idea of what they were up against.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

*Oathenor, Mature adult half-earth elemental deep dragon:* CR 18; Huge Outsider (Earth, Chaotic, Evil); *with many spells active.**

HD *24d12+216; *hp* 372; 
*Init *-3; 
*Spd *40 ft (_freedom of movement_), fly 90 ft (good) or 150 ft (poor), burrow 20 ft, swim 30 ft; 

*AC *41/48 (+7 _shield_, +4 _mage armor_, -3 Dex, +4 _haste_, -2 size, +26 natural); + *expertise

Melee* bite +34 (2d8+12), 2 claws +29 (2d6+6), 2 wings +28 (1d8+6), tail slap +28 (2d6+18); + *haste*

*SA *breath weapon, frightful presence, spell-like abilities, true seeing, snake form, humanoid form, half-earth elemental spell-like abilities; 

*SQ* +4 save vs. poison, immunities, cold resistance 10, sonic resistance 5, fire resistance 10 (half damage), acid resistance (half damage), blindsight, keen senses;

*DR* 50/+3 _iron body_ or 10/+5 (150 _stoneskin_ points max) or 10/+1, 
*Face/Reach* 10 ft by 40 ft / 10 ft; 
*SR 26*; 
*AL* CE; 
*Saves*  Fort +21, Ref +11, Will +19; 

*Abilities*   Str 35, Dex 5 (normally 8, with _cat’s grace_ and _iron body_), Con 28, Int 20, Wis 21, Cha 20.

*Skills:* Bluff +29, Concentration +31, Diplomacy +29, Escape Artist +23, Knowledge (arcana, underdark, history, tasty yummy things) all +29, Listen +29, Scry +29, Search +29, Sense Motive +29, Spellcraft +29, Spot +29; 

*Feats:* Hover, Flyby Attack, Power Attack, Expertise, Improved disarm, Quicken spell-like ability

_SA–Breath Weapon (Su):_ Cone of flesh corroding (acid) gas, 50 feet long, every 1d4 rounds; damage 14d8, Reflex half DC 29.

_SA–Frightful Presence (Ex):_ Dragons can unsettle foes with their mere presence. This ability takes effect automatically (radius 210 ft) whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead. A potentially affected creature (one with less than 24 HD) that succeeds at a Will save (DC 27) remains immune to that dragon's frightful presence for one day. On a failure, creatures with 4 or fewer HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with more than 5 HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. 

_SA–Spell-Like Abilities: detect magic, true seeing_ (always active).

_SA–Half-Earth Elemental Spell-Like Abilities (at 24th lvl):_ 1/day-_magic stone, soften earth and stone, stone shape, spike stones, wall of stone, earthquake, iron body, elemental swarm*, plane shift._
* Cast as an earth spell only.

_Spells Known_ (cast 6/8/7/5; as a level 7 sorcerer): 0–_daze, resistance, detect poison, read magic, dancing lights, ghost sound, mage hand;_ 1_–endure elements, mage armor, shield, true strike, ventriloquism;_ 2_–cat’s grace, endurance, fog cloud;_ 3–_fly, haste

SA–Snake Form (Su):_ 4/day, this dragon can assume a serpentine form. In this form, the AC drops to 27 and the dragon loses claw attacks, but gains a constriction attack at the same bonus, dealing 3d6+9 damage; this attack has Improved Grab. Speed in this form: 30 ft, fly 20 ft (poor), swim 30 ft.

_SA–Humanoid Form (Su):_ 4/day, shapechange into a basic Humanoid (human, elf, dwarf, hobgoblin, etc.)

_SQ–Immunities (Ex):_ (includes immunities granted by active spells) Immune to charm, disease, earth-based effects, sleep, paralysis, blindness, critical hits, ability score damage, deafness, disease, drowning, electricity, poison, stunning, and all spells or attacks that affect the character's physiology or respiration.

_SQ–Blindsight (Ex):_ Dragons can ascertain creatures by nonvisual means (mostly hearing and scent, but also by noticing vibrations and other environmental clues); this dragon's range is 210 feet.

_SQ–Keen Senses (Ex):_ Dragons can see four times as well as humans in low-light conditions and twice as well in normal light. They also have darkvision (range 700 feet).

Note: _Haste_ only lasts 7 rounds. Already figured in to AC.


----------



## Victim

Elemental Swarm?!  That's nasty!  How many elementals have been summoned so far?

I don't know whether to laugh at your poor players or cry for their characters.


----------



## Piratecat

Don't cry too hard - the PCs are fully buffed and prepared, and that means a lot. Oathenor's normal strategy is to take out the cleric first, then the wizard, and then take his time finishing off the others. As it turns out, Velendo made that strategy a wee bit problematical.

It's a fine battle. You'll see.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Sniff.  Seeing the dragon, all fully statted... it's beautiful!

Edit: below


----------



## Jeremy

Monsters of Faerun.  Deep Dragons have true seeing always active.  

Elemental Swarm is a very hard spell to employ I might add, the initial elementals that emerge are little more than flesh walls (if that), it takes some serious time for the power of the spell to show up.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman

Please tell me that you remembered to cast _elemental swarm_ before the combat started. Because IIRC, it has a casting time of 10 minutes.

Oh, ****. It's got _quicken spell-like ability_. Awwwk! But at least the party has got a ten minute gap between elementals appearing, eh? Doesn't it? Please?


----------



## Kaodi

*Future*

What sort of things are still ahead for the Defenders, PirateCat? What haven't they done yet? I  was sort of thinking about this last night and I was wondering if the Defenders had ever been immersed in a new set of cultures, sent to another planet, another reality, or hurtled forward or backward 10s, 100s or 1000s or year in time. 

Also, just another thought, do you have any subservient ghouls like the Marquis (what the heck is the plural of Marquis, if anything?) in the original adventure?

Anyway... half-earth elemental deep dragon... hehehe... nice. Speaking of which, what kind of monsters might you be looking for ideas for in the nearer or further future?


----------



## Mathew_Freeman

Woo! Piratecat YOINKed on of my ideas!

*basks in ironic fan-boy joy*

And no worries about the email, Pkitty, it's my bad.


----------



## Knight Otu

*Re: Future*



			
				Kaodi said:
			
		

> *What sort of things are still ahead for the Defenders, PirateCat? What haven't they done yet?*



Wasn't there something about a powerful magical effect that caused people to forget that the king has actually a son? I don't this has been resolved yet...?


----------



## Piratecat

Since I haven't finished the dragon fight yet, let me at least answer this.

Potential ingredients in their underdark crawl include:

- blind, psionic, albino, cannibalistic halflings
- ghoulish and non-ghoulish mindflayers
- some up front and personal time with deific representatives
- A very difficult dilemma

I don't want to give too much away. But really, who doesn't love blind, psionic, albino, cannibalistic halflings? The big challenge in this sort of adventure is to make it stay interesting. The problem with the 2e Night Below boxed set, for example, is that the middle bit got boring. Just too much of the same old, same old. I'm going to try and avoid that. We'll see how well I do.

For instance, you'll notice that there aren't any ghouls in Mrid. That's because the ghoulish commanders thought, "Hmmm. Every time our armies meet these people, hundreds and hundreds of our troops die. Whaddaya say we try to avoid them until our assassins can take them down?"  Thus, you won't be seeing as many large-scale battles for a while, unless the PCs catch up with an army that is trying to be somewhere that they aren't.

To make this work, I will gloss over the boring bits ("You travel for 4 days.") It should be a theme of epic, fantastic exploring, mixed with occasional vicious danger and clear signs of what the ghouls have done. It should be very clear that these are Bad. And they should wonder where the heck all those ghouls have gone...

But don't worry. The undead are working on something important.  After all, the notion that the ghouls could wipe out all living creatures by themselves - religious quest or not - is absurd. They must have something else up their rotting, slimy sleeve.

Following this adventure, they'll have to deal with the aftermath of what the White Kingdom has done. They'll have to deal with the aftermath of what the Church of Aeos has accomplished. I'll probably toss some planar adventuring in there. And Knight Otu's correct; they'll probably want to find out why the king's son is missing, and why they can never remember that fact.


----------



## JacktheRabbit

Don't forget the mother of all adventures.

They still have to figure out why those damn Modrons are marching.


----------



## Spatzimaus

As to the blind, psionic albino halflings:

There are a LOT of good Psion/Psychic Warrior PrCs, powers, and Feats at the WotC website now.  My favorites for Psion are Shadow Mind and Constructor.  As it is, the Defenders have almost no psionic power with the disappearance of Tom-Tom, so the players probably wouldn't be familiar with that new material.

Constructor especially is a fun PrC.  Besides adding a new list of abilities to choose from, you can add THREE more abilities to each construct, give them more HP, cast them for less pp but get 1d3 extra constructs, and metapsionic them (i.e., Quicken) way beyond the usual limit.  It makes you a one-trick Halfling, but that's not a problem for NPCs as much.

Besides, it sorta makes sense as to how they'd have kept the White Kingdom at bay: when you can summon a mini-army (3-8 per casting) of constructs with lots of special abilities and DR, a pack of ghouls just isn't that dangerous.


----------



## Urbanmech

What exactly does Knowledge: Tasty, Yummy Things do for a dragon that can eat almost anything already?  

Is he thinking during the battle, "when this Iron Body wears off I shall eat the half-elf first, then maybe one or two of the humans and polish it off with a halfling desert."  "I'm so sick of dwarves..."   

Or maybe it is, "Magical mace, that looks tasty think I'll start with that."
"MMM, +5 with a hint of holyness."


----------



## Greybar

I'd say that Knowledge (tasty yummy things) +29 would mean that he has a practiced knowledge of what wine pairs best with heroes.  There's a particular subtle aspect that many villains miss, making the general assumption that a red wine is a good match for fighter-types, while a white is the best pairing for spell casters.

The level of expertise that Oathenor has in such things has taught him that a full bodied chardonnay might be the obvious choice for a bard that isn't that beefy in the muscles department.  However a dark, spicy cabernet with hints of toast really brings out the phoenix-spirit residue in half-elf bards that are self-cooking.

John


----------



## wolff96

Greybar said:
			
		

> *The level of expertise that Oathenor has in such things has taught him that a full bodied chardonnay might be the obvious choice for a bard that isn't that beefy in the muscles department.  However a dark, spicy cabernet with hints of toast really brings out the phoenix-spirit residue in half-elf bards that are self-cooking.*




LOL.

I read that and started thinking of MREs. Pull the tab on Nolin, and by the time you can get the juicy bits out of the armor, he's at the perfect temperature to eat.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Greybar said:
			
		

> *I'd say that Knowledge (tasty yummy things) +29 would mean that he has a practiced knowledge of what wine pairs best with heroes.  There's a particular subtle aspect that many villains miss, making the general assumption that a red wine is a good match for fighter-types, while a white is the best pairing for spell casters.
> 
> The level of expertise that Oathenor has in such things has taught him that a full bodied chardonnay might be the obvious choice for a bard that isn't that beefy in the muscles department.  However a dark, spicy cabernet with hints of toast really brings out the phoenix-spirit residue in half-elf bards that are self-cooking.*




How, exactly, does that work in-game?  Is there a set DC, or is it based on some aspect (CR, HD, etc.) of the food, or is it like Jump (for every x you beat DC 20 by, _____)?

Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## Yellow Sign

Piratecat, 
 I love your story hour and I just wanted to ask you a question. When the dragon ate the magical mace, wouldn't it give him a very nasty stomach ache? I forgot was the mace a LAWFUL mace or just a HOLY mace in the stomach of a CHOATIC EVIL dragon. Just touching the thing would be bad news for the dragon right?


----------



## Greybar

> _CRGreathouse:_
> How, exactly, does that work in-game? Is there a set DC, or is it based on some aspect (CR, HD, etc.) of the food, or is it like Jump (for every x you beat DC 20 by, _____)?




It's actually a contested test, with the Knowledge(culinary) of the chef being compared against that of the diner.  A dragon-chef of such discriminating taste would find that his artistry is totally lost of the amazed taste buds of his kobold syncophants (Nob10, Knowledge(yummy stuff) +15).  However, as always we are our own worst critics.

For a full example of such delicacies, interested readers are encouraged to attended the Feast of Overconfident Adventurers, held every twenty years by Gorganzal Throatking (called "The Grapebreath" when his back is turned), an Ancient Blue Dragon.  The attendees range from the aforementioned Oathenor (whose "Braised Drow with Black Currant" dish was very well received) to the well known illithid chef Kolethi.  Kolethi's prize-winning dish, "Unicorn brain with wood-charred elfskin", transcended the typical illithid fare in its mixture of still glistening and warm brainflesh with just the right crunchy bite of topping.  The horn was a beautiful presentation piece as well.

Competing chefs have been known to covertly encourage adventurers with desired qualities to attack.  They often then store the bodies in _Time Stop_ chambers until just before the Feast.  Points are given to the chefs for the renown of the former adventurers.  There is currently an extra standing prize for the attendee that can deliver the most succulent half-elf sorceress on a bed of rice.

But I digress...

John


----------



## Piratecat

I love you guys.  Best skill ruling, ever.

Yellow Sign, I actually thought of that! I decided that with no one to hold it, it would just do a minimal amount every round. The dragon was planning on coughing up the items later and adding them to his hoard. The slight indigestion in the mean time wasn't much concern.

Oh, did I say _items_? That would be foreshadowing.


----------



## Kugar

Congratulations,
This thread has given me a whole new set of nightmares involving William Shatner. 

Kugar


----------



## Kaodi

*Idea*

Looking through the MM2, I finally came up with a worthwhile (and hopefully more or less original) monster idea.

How do you think an Earth Weird with the Demonically Fused Elemental Template from Dragon #285 would go over? Especially backed up by a few Earth Grues (from the same issue) and a handful of ghoulish servants? Taking some creative license here and there, you could use the Weirds foretelling in creatively evil ways. 

Just a thought.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman

Piratecat - me and randomling have been trying out her DMing powers, as per The Elemental Six thread (there's only four of them up there at the moment, the other two are on their way, honest!) and last night we tried a good variant on an old theme. We bashed zombies.

This may not sound like much of a challenge for some 13th level characters, but let me tell you, beating the cr*p out of *12* collossal zombies is a curiously fun experience.

"I power attack it for ten!"
"Roll the dice!"
"Hit AC...uh...23...14...19..."
"Three hits! Roll damage!"
"Um...33...29...38!"
"OK, it looks slightly injured. Next!"
""

We have wizards casting _maximised lightning bolts_, druids with a _flamestrike_...all sorts. Great fun.


----------



## Bill Muench

*MM2*

Personally, I'm loving the recent spat of templates that has been released. My most recent favorite creation?

A pair of monks who have been mummified (see the Mummy template from Dragon #300) and Spellstitched (see MM2). Their wrappings glow with blue runes of power and their joints creak with the ages... I'm using as a pair of tomb guardians in my homebrew, and giving them each a distinct fighting style (similar to the martial arts styles from Oriental Adventures).

The two templates go great with the Monk class, especially due to the Wisdom and natural armor bonuses of the Mummy template. Then Spellstitching gives them Mage Armor and touch spells like the various _inflict_ spells, _slay living_, and _harm_ that they can deliver via unarmed strikes or use to heal themselves.

Too much fun (there's also the Ice Para-Genasi that ride Cold Element creatures ).

Back to your regularly scheduled sadism... er, discussion of ideas.


----------



## Grim

I was thinking allong the lines of psionic canable halflings, and crazy undead assasins and I came up with something that I definitly think one of the players (Galthia) would definitly hate. Basically, he's a githyanki, right. Limbo Monk. And as everyone knows, githyanki HATE githzeri. But githzeria have a problem, because at 15th level, thier queen kills them off. Which is sort of an anti-powergaming thing, and isnt really backed up well RP wise, but work with me a little.

So how exactly would this level cap work? My idea is that the queen has some sort of artifact that keeps tabs on all powerful githzeri, where they are, and how powerful they are. The "tracking device" would probably be some sort of hereditary magic that goes into every githzeri born, or something like that. 

Anyway, some githzeri, probably an evil adventuring party who know they are near the queens hitlist decide to bend the rules. They go to the white kindom and ask to be ghoulized, thus dying and dropping below the queens powerlevel radar, in exchange for, say, 20 years of service. Now this happened a while ago, so the party is WELL beyond 15th. 

AND they are all psions/psychic warriors, and they get to keep all their stats (including con), getting special DM treatment for being evil NPCs.

That way, they look like normal ghouls, but are secretly insanely powerful. The perfect assasin. Just have them blend in with a group of grunts in some big/small skirmish, until they get close to teh party and bust out insane power combos. They are undead, they shouldnt technically exist, they already gave up thier lives, so they have nothing to lose. AND since they arnt subject to mind influnecing effects, they arnt subject to any of the party's nastier psionics.

The funny part is, once the queen found out that the party had taken care of, or not taken care of, possible rivals, she would probably be grateful, and her people probably wouldnt. So by defending themselves, the party would set of an interplanar incident. And Galthia would definitly fight them anyway, racial rivalries and all.

But it could also set of a sudden realization of how unfair the queen is being to her people, and how the aritifact must be destroyed. But then what to do with all the now free Githzeria?Sort of an Emancipation dillema. But a good subject for an planar adventure.

And maybe that alreay killed undead archer lady would make a good precurser to the rest of the undead party. Yah, maybe they could be out for revenge, and gold/power.

This may be crazy, it might not, but I'm posting it none the less. If you like it, PC, I have a bunch more ideas for the individual party members...


----------



## Spatzimaus

Grim said:
			
		

> *I came up with something that I definitly think one of the players (Galthia) would definitly hate. Basically, he's a githyanki, right. Limbo Monk. And as everyone knows, githyanki HATE githzeri. But githzeria have a problem, because at 15th level, thier queen kills them off. *




It's the Githyanki who follow the Lich Queen and die at 16th level.  Galthia is a Githzerai.

Your concept still works, in theory, but I'd have to wonder why a Lich (i.e., undead) Queen wouldn't notice undead giths.


----------



## Grim

ooops... just switch the two in my post...

umm... crud. now that doesnt really work. Unless the lich queen is an ally of the white kingdom... or something, and has a special crack team of undead... or something... it can still work.... it can still work...


----------



## Bronz Dragon

*Githyanki Task Force*

Mayhap the Lich Queen kills them and resurrects the most nastily powerful ones for her own personal use, thus she would have a powerful army who are all under her direct control in every possible way.

EDIT:  Oh! I almost forgot.  Since she's a Lich herself, she's agreed to lend some of her little babies to the White Kingdom.


----------



## Ashy

eeeewwwwww....  lich babies....   

Grim - tres cool idea nonetheless...


----------



## jonrog1

First time I've swung by here.

That ... dragon.  I'm DM'ing the next campaign, and I actually have to say -- I couldn't do that to them.  

Sweet.  Lord.


----------



## Piratecat

Yes you could, Jon. I trust you.

Kaodi, you've just saved my bacon!  I wanted something creepy and unexpected for the central chamber of the dwarven vault. While I probably won't use the template, the earth wierd is _exactly_ what I'm looking for. Gotta go write prophecies!

The other good stuff I'll ponder on later. Grim, there's got to be a way to tie in the githyanki; I just don't know what it is yet.  Bill, I'm nabbing the spellstitched idea. Oddly enough, someone (WotC?) released a "spellstitched" monster that is nothing like the MM2 template! Anyone seen that? It's like a negative energy version of the Hunter of the Dead.

Spatz, where's the shadow mind from? Mind's Eye?

Thank you again, everyone, for making this thread so much fun. I wonder if illithids brainstorm, too?


----------



## Allanon

Greetings all, especially you Piratecat for creating a story hour good enough to satisfy my reading 'lusts' till a Feast of Crows is released by G.R.R.M. 
As the forum topic states you're looking for monster/npc's to challenge you're pc's.
After scouring through some notes from my campaign I found a reference to a template WotC posted about multiheaded creatures (link). Their example of a multiheaded gorgon instantly drew my attention. Problem is it's DC 31 breathweapon which it can use multiple times. But seeing how the Defenders where able to handle themselves against Oathenor they should be able to handle this one. For increased evilness  you could add the true ghoul template, at the same time making it easier to handle for the 'holy' part of the Defenders. Since the mystery leader of the Ghouls already proved himself someone with reasonable magical powers and resources creating such an abomination shouldn't prove too difficult. Hope this helps.
Keep up the great work


----------



## Kaodi

*Earth Weird*

Just glad that I could make a meaningful contribution to such a great campaign, PirateCat.


----------



## Bronz Dragon

Allanon said:
			
		

> *Since the mystery leader of the Ghouls already proved himself someone with reasonable magical powers and resources creating such an abomination shouldn't prove to difficult.*



 Are you kidding? after that necropede, I wouldn't put anything past those ghouls.  Some things he might even do for cruel amusement, such as sticking red and gold dragon heads on the same body and watching them fight for hours 

"I smell humans, I'll enjoy crunching their bones"

"Don't you dare, they may be able to help us"

"Who asked you, Goldihocks?"

"Well, if I left it up to you we'd never be rid of each other"

"I didn't ask for this you yellow snake.  If it wouldn't kill me, I'd tear your head off of this body and eat its eyeballs"

"I'd like to see you try it"

"Oh YEA?!"  *thud* *crash* *wallop*  

"Why you!"  *punt* *honk* *skreeech*

  And the defenders just sit outside the door and stare dumbfounded at each other.


----------



## Gidien

*"Spellstitched"*

Hey PCat... you mentioned an alternate "spellstiched" monster that looked like an evil hunter of the dead... I was wondering about where you found it. It sounds like a monster I sent you a few months ago, but I called it the Soulstiched. Maybe you should post it, assuming it's up to snuff. 

Oh and great thread. I looove the dragon's stats... mmm, a disarming dragon... truly evil.


----------



## Grim

*Githyanki task force*

I'm not much good with actual stats, but I think others can come up with the exact "crunchy bits." 

My thoughts:

They would all be true ghoul Githyanki. The task force, not the others. In my mind, the force would be something like this:

Shaper: 
int focused psion. Leader of the group. Astral constructs would come in the form of big endoplasmic spiders, bats, or other freaky things, and would have an added list entry (when choosing their augmentation thingies from the lists in the PsiH): they could be the undead subtype

Psychic warrior 9ish/rogue 3ish/monk 4ish:
focused almost entirely on mobility, sneak attacks. Feats would either be psionic ones improving mobility or (a must) improved critical, deep impact, etc. Basically, in a toe to toe, they would get worked, but when striking from the shadows and then bursting away, they would be massively effective with extra damage dice. No armor, but inertial armor and crazy amounts of dodge bonuses/nat armor/etc.

Psychic Warrior:
A pure psionic fighter, but heavily protected against magic, etc. He would wear endoplasmic armor, use a githyanki _silver sword_, but also have a _silver lance_, because he rides a _Silver Spider_. 

A Silver Spider is basically a large or huge advanced phase spider or maybe monstrous spider, but has the following extra stuff:
Shifts not between the Material and the Etherial, but between the Material and the Astral.
Can attack the silver cord on the astral plane.
This particular one is a true ghoul (maybe).
My favorite part: It shoots a web that, besides having the effect of a regular monstrous spider web, drains a certain number of powerpoints from any psionic beings it attaches to, and gives them back to the silver spider, or its rider. This drain would proably be based on Hit Dice of the spider.

And the final member (my personal favorite):

A cleric:
Not just any cleric, this cleric is dedicated to the lich queen herself. The queen's domains are the same as vecna's, except for an extra one: *mind*. I have no idea what the domain would consist of, but the added power is that you can trade healing spells for "Heal Mind Spells", which add power points. Evil, huh.

They would have a fifth member, but that was the archer the party killed earlier.

Umm... thats about all I can think of...

I can post the mind domain later, if you like. And maybe a better writeup of the silver spider.

Thats all, folks,

Grim.

PS: The silver lance would have something instead of the vorpal charictersistic. Perhaps "improved wounding", or keen. Or you could just keep the vorpal charicteristic, to be typically rat bastardy.

PPS: and all the psychic warriors could have had grafted thier weapons onto thier bodys, so when they die, you cant get their weapons. HEHEHEH. Se evil!


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot

Ah, good old treasure vaults   If you're looking for any alternatives, I have 2 suggestions you might find interesting.

Dark Tentacles, from MM2, this creature has 36 tentacles (12 attacks a round) and is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, can be advanced to 27 HD (or more if you want I guess), and has some nice immobilizing spell like abilities.  Scatters treasure about as bait in its description.

Deepspawn, from Magic of Faerun, similar to the Dark Tentacles, it has several natural attacks as well as notes for having cover when covered in treasure.

I kindof like the first one, imagine, the weapons that could be used against the White Kingdom would first be used by the monster!  Up to 12 magical swords, axes, maces, and other expertly crafted dwarven weapons for the creature's use .  It's also decently intelligent (Int 14) and would make for a fun challenge, especially with Agar's fascination with tentacles 


I also have a question for you PC:
At the time when Defenders were infultrating that temple of healing that was really a front for a cult of clerics worshipping a god of plague, what did you use for the stats (if any) of that slimy (divine?) creature that polymorphed into a halfling?  I found it interesting how he had several different diseases at his disposal to weaken the Defenders so that they couldn't touch him.  Darn Talisman of Good .  Thanks ahead of time.


----------



## Kaodi

*Sympathy vs. Antipathy*

While trying to think of another bright idea, it occured to me that we tend to think about maliscious and cruel things to do to the Defenders exculsively. 

I am thinking that perhaps as a small aside, if the Defenders need a new ally, you could have them meet by chance a celestial traveller from either the Upper Planes or Positive Energy Plane delving deep into the heart of the Ghoulish Kingdom in order to try and find some powerful artifact of good that was kept under the protection of the first ghouls that came from the Negative Energy Plane.

Just a thought, based on the reverse idea from MotP of bad things being held prison in the Positive Energy Plane.


----------



## Piratecat

*Re: "Spellstitched"*



			
				Gidien said:
			
		

> *Hey PCat... you mentioned an alternate "spellstiched" monster that looked like an evil hunter of the dead... I was wondering about where you found it. It sounds like a monster I sent you a few months ago, but I called it the Soulstiched. Maybe you should post it, assuming it's up to snuff.
> *




*bing bing bing!*

I'm embarrassed I mixed it up; I'd like to think that my faulty memory stems from incompetence, not early senility.  It should say something that when I ran into it the other day in my gaming folder, I thought it came from WotC.  The CR is probably a bit low, but the monster still rocks. Thank you again, and expect to see it in action before too long. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------

*Soul Stitched*  (By Gidien)
Large Undead
HD: 20d12 (132)
Initiative: +10 (+6 Dex, +4 I.I.)
Speed: 40’
AC: 27 (+6 Dex, +4 Haste, +7 Natural)
Attacks: 2 claws +19
Damage: Claw 2d6+8+Soul Drain
Face/Reach: 5’x5’/10’
Special Attacks: Negative Energy Burst, Soul Drain
Special Qualities: Alacrity, Negative Energy Shield, DR 30/+3, SR 24
Saves- F: +8 R: +12 W: +16
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 22, Con -, Int 16, Wis 18, Cha 18
Skills: Intimidate +32 Listen +32, Spot +32, 
Feats: Dodge, Moblitity, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (claw), Improved Initiative, Great 	Fortitude, Power Attack, Cleave
Clime: Any 
Organization: Solitary, Pair, or Gang (2-5)
CR: 14
Treasure: Standard
Align: Always neutral evil
Adv. Range: 21 to 40 HD (large), 41-60 HD (huge)

The Soul Stitched are terrifying undead constructs, crafted and granted sentience by only the most skilled necromancers. They are the ultimate bane to undead hunters. 

	Soul Stitched appear at first glance to be bizarre flesh golems, for each limb is created from the matching limbs of medium and small sized humans. Thus, its thin, elongated arms are comprised of several arms cunningly molded together. The overall effect is that of a tall, emaciated corpse, with grotesquely long limbs and body, topped by a grinning head that seems small by comparison. The Soul Stitched are infused with the tormented souls of all the victims that comprise it, and infused with negative energy, leaving it enveloped in a field of shimmering black and floating slightly off the ground.

*Combat:* The Soul Stitched are cunning combatants, and almost always travel with packs of lesser undead at their beck and call. They use these undead to hinder foes, especially spell casters, while blasting away with negative energy bursts. When closing for combat, they prefer to strike down those with divine powers first, as they particularly despise such beings.

	Negative Energy Burst (Su): Once every 1d4 rounds, four times per day, Soul Stitched can unleash a blast of pure negative energy, striking all within 100’. This attack does 10d6 damage, allowing a reflex save (DC: 24) for half damage. This attack heals all undead in the area, including the soul stitched.

	Soul Drain (Su): A Soul Stitched attacks tear at the very souls of those struck. Anyone hit by a claw attack must succeed at a will save (DC: 24) or suffer 1 temporary negative level and 1 point of permanent Charisma drain. The Soul Stitched recovers 5 HP for every negative level it inflicts, excess becoming temporary HP. The Fortitude save to remove the negative level is DC: 24

	Alacrity (Su): The Soul Stitched moves with supernatural speed. It acts as if always Hasted, providing an extra action each round and a +4 bonus to AC (included in the stats above).

	Negative Energy Shield (Su): The field of negative energy surrounding the Soul Stitched provides it with special protections form positive energy. All undead within 30’ (including the Soul Stitched) gain turn resistance +4. Additionally, the Soul Stitched reduces all positive energy, holy, and undead specific damage by 20 each round. This ability is similar to energy resistance, and works on attacks such attacks as Flame Strike, Positive Energy Burst, and Searing Light.


----------



## Vargo

*Re: "Spellstitched"*



			
				Piratecat said:
			
		

> *
> Soul Stitched(By Gidien)
> *Snippage*
> Speed: 40’
> *Snippage*
> DR 30/+3, SR 24
> *Snippage*
> CR: 14
> *Snippage*
> Negative Energy Burst (Su): Once every 1d4 rounds, four times per day, Soul Stitched can unleash a blast of pure negative energy, striking all within 100’. This attack does 10d6 damage, allowing a reflex save (DC: 24) for half damage. This attack heals all undead in the area, including the soul stitched.
> *Snippage*
> Negative Energy Shield (Su): The field of negative energy surrounding the Soul Stitched provides it with special protections form positive energy. All undead within 30’ (including the Soul Stitched) gain turn resistance +4. Additionally, the Soul Stitched reduces all positive energy, holy, and undead specific damage by 20 each round. This ability is similar to energy resistance, and works on attacks such attacks as Flame Strike, Positive Energy Burst, and Searing Light. *




 

Um, CR *14*?  With 10d6 damage on a DC 24 REFLEX save every 1d4 rounds?  Not to mention almost no defences against the damage type are availible...

Yeah, I'd say the DC is a little low.


----------



## JacktheRabbit

*Re: Re: "Spellstitched"*

I agree, at best this ability should be limited to number of times equal to Charisma modifer. Also this power is much more powerful than Positive Energy Burst which I believe does not heal at all anyone living that is caught in the blast radius.




			
				Vargo said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> 
> Um, CR *14*?  With 10d6 damage on a DC 24 REFLEX save every 1d4 rounds?  Not to mention almost no defences against the damage type are availible...
> 
> Yeah, I'd say the DC is a little low. *


----------



## Kugar

*Re: Re: "Spellstitched"*



			
				Vargo said:
			
		

> *
> Yeah, I'd say the DC is a little low. *




DC should = 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha mod = 24 for the above.  The DC looks good.  The CR looks a little low, not because of the special abilities but for the ability scores, HD, and attacks.  I'd say its CR should be at least 15 because of the DR. (My general rule is DR = x/+ (1/3 CR) so the party could hit it with weapons when used as a normal encouter, but the DR is a pain if you use the monster as a encounter with an EL 4 or 5 higher than the party's level.

The negative engery burst could really ruin a party's day, but at 15th level you may have picked up a ring of evasion. In addition, the N.E.B would affecting Undead would almost never come in to play if the soul stitched are used as written. The lesser undead will usually be destroyed easily by a higer level party.  This ability should be taken into account in the encounter's EL if it becomes stategically important.  The amount of times it can NEB should also be a non-issue.  How many rounds do you think this guy is sticking around for if the good guys are within 100'

The shield is all goodness though and a nasty effect 

All around good monster - consider this a *yoink* Thank you Gidien / PC.


----------



## Vargo

s/the DC is/the CR is

Actually, I'd use these guys in tandem.  You're right about them never getting to use it for the "lesser" undead, but imagine 2-3 of these guys just firing off their bursts as quickly as they can...


----------



## Gidien

Thanks to all for the feedback. Much appreciated.

Don't forget that the negative energy burst it limited to 4/day. As for the CR, I figured it was low when I made it, but all I had to work with was the WotC CR estimator, which I have never really trusted... The thing needs playtesting, but right now my party is only 8th level.

[Evil Grin] Anyone willing to help? [/Evil Grin]


----------



## Kaodi

*Positive Energy*

While we are on the subject of Positive/Negative Energy, have you ever shown your players how much fun TOO MUCH Positive Energy can be, PirateCat? I am sure the ghouls would love to unleash a few spells that utilize large amounts of it on the Defenders, just for some sort of satisfying vengeance. Besides, I doubt the Defenders would ever think about the need for Positive Energy Protection.

If all else fails, you can always summon the Mighty Morphin' Ghoulish Rangers and their Golem Zords. ( I'm sorry, I'm not sure what's come over me  )


----------



## Spatzimaus

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *
> Spatz, where's the shadow mind from? Mind's Eye?
> *




Yep.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/psi/psi20021025b

It's basically the Psionic version of the Shadow Adept (FR), but that makes it a LOT better IMO.  After all, being able to manifest Shield isn't so great for a Sor/Wiz who already has it, but for a Psion?  Plus low-light/darkvision fit well for underground albino cannibal halflings.


----------



## Bronz Dragon

Since I'm such a lazy bastard and can't be bothered looking it up  :  PC, what ring was it that Oathenor used in your latest update?


----------



## Caliber

I am about 100% positive that there is a ring in Magic of Faerun that casts a Heal on you when you drop below 0. Maybe I am just making it up though ...


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot

This ring from its description sounds more like just a contingency heal ring, although the ring you're thinking of is a Ring of Nine Lives which has 9 charges of a type of contingency heal and auto save power...Lovely or Evil thing, depending on its use


----------



## Piratecat

I liked the idea of the Ring of Nine Lives, but thought it was way too powerful. This ring is similar, but only functions once for each person. It's like a wearable "get out of the grave free" card with a charge or two left on it.


----------



## incognito

PC,

I was not able to locate the stats and the equiptment of the Marilith a few chapters back - did I miss it?  If it has not been posted - can you post it?


----------



## Jeremy

Off topic:  Mariliths are so much fun in 3e.  With improved multiweapon fighting (non-epic feat from ELH) for 13 attacks/round or Multitasking (sword & fist) for 3 spells per round before haste and quicken spell, they are easily one of the only creatures aside from dragons still capable of the "one big bad guy" trick.

Add in teleport without error at will, and you've got one heckuva threatening demon.

I've seen poorly handled pit fiends and balors go down in a single round, but any time a six-armed snake woman hits the floor, it gives me serious pause.


----------



## Fade

On the subject of the ring, Velendo's Searing Light burned right through it's head, presumably searing the brain. That sounds more like 'dead' than 'mortally wounded' to me, so the ring may have had a Ressurection ability.


----------



## Negative Zero

Fade said:
			
		

> * ... sounds more like 'dead' than 'mortally wounded' to me ... *




a mortal wound, _is_ one that kills you. i'm guessing that the ring activated at some point between -1 and -10. also PC likely took quite a bit of creative liscence with the narrative 

~NegZ


----------



## Suldulin

githyanki allies of the ghouls could be interesting, especially seeing as they're the one who took out the mindflayers that were holding the white kingdom in check. . .


----------



## Bronz Dragon

Galthia will have a field day

Hey PC, are there any powers/abilities that Galthia has which are specifically geared to pound on githyanki?  Kinda like Dwarves vs. Giants or preferred enemy ranger ability?

Even just monk/prestige class abilities would be cool.  Monks rock    Is Galthia's character sheet up, by the by?  I prolly missed it, as I'm blind    but either way, can you point me in the right direction or give me a hint of what kinda stuff he's packing?


----------



## Caliber

I believe Galthia was allowed to start play mostly ignoring the ECL from being a Githzerai at the cost of most of his gold. 

I think the only thing he bought (at least, the only thing mentioned) was his now defunct staff.


----------



## Nail

Caliber said:
			
		

> *I think the only thing he bought (at least, the only thing mentioned) was his now defunct staff. *




Defunct?  Doesn't that have th' connotation
of "non-functional"?  Probably not th' word you were looking for....

Try _dissolved_/   ..as in, "no longer existing".


----------



## Bronz Dragon

maybe he swept up all the little particles and keeps them in a box.

Might come in handy if someone has an extra Wish or Miracle laying around


----------



## Eridanis

PC -

Here's an idea to throw into the idea cauldron.

I picked up the DRACONIC LORE book by Fantasy Flight, and one of the dragons detailed is the cthonic dragon: basically, a normal dragon that was taken by the mind flyers as a baby dragon, and an illithid tadpole was injected into its brain, turning it into a dragon/illithid crossbreed-type thing - truly nasty.

Which set off big bells for me. I've always loved mind flayers, but their current status as second fiddle to drow has irked me a bit. But this introduces a cool spin to the critter: what if a mind flayer is created, not born? What if illithids capture slaves, and use them not just as slave labor, but take the best and the brightest, inject a tadpole from the main brain into them, and thus propigate the species? It would explain why they're always looking for fresh meat; not just eating brains for sustenance, but changing the brains of the best captives (and those willing & wanting to undergo the transformation) and perverting them to their side.

An illithid template would need to be created, but think of the possibilities!


----------



## Vargo

This has been done, in fact.

Somebody made an Illithid template here on the boards.  I don't have the link with me, but I'll see if I can't find it...


----------



## Eridanis

Vargo said:
			
		

> *This has been done, in fact.
> 
> Somebody made an Illithid template here on the boards.  I don't have the link with me, but I'll see if I can't find it... *




http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30146&highlight=illithid

Thanks for letting me know. 

"No new ideas under the sun," and all that. Sigh...


----------



## Esiminar

*Pleeeeeeease!!*

Hey PC how about a sneak peek at the stats for something from *The Vault* ?

PS. I forgot to mention how much I admire your devotion to RBDMness and your amazingly crafted story hour, oh and have a fish
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





PPS. I hope that was enough sucking up because boy was that tiring!


----------



## Piratecat

Thanks for the fish!

Galthia's character sheet isn't up yet. In the game last night, I just gave him an important item to help compensate for the lost staff. Of course, it was someone's eye that he had to swallow, but still....

Most of the vault didn't have living creatures - obviously. But I'll post some stats later that may please you.

Oh, and Eridanis, such a fine idea! I have that mindflayer template all tucked away for future use....


----------



## Cassiopea

Inferno, "a.k.a The Solar Savant" the spellslingest dragon of all time, and the reigning Radiant Energy master of faerun, this dragon can definetly make things hotter than hell on a saturday night.

Advanced Great Wyrm Red/Gold crossbreed dragon
Age category 20, with a Chaotic Nuetral alignment
Classes: Incancantrix 10, Elemantal Savant (Fire type) 10, Mage of the Arcane Order 5, Archmage 5, Contemplative 1.
Chosen of the Draconic Goddess of Magic - Kereska Wonderbringer "a.k.a. has chosen of Mystra type of abilities, but with a more Draconic and Radiant Energy style to them abilities"

Inferno is also one of the best Alchemist and has a sage like mastery in the following fields of study: Biology-Draconic, Chemistry, and Physics, with the realms foremost mastery in all types of Radiant Energies.

This dragon is considered a rogue among all dragons and a threat to both Tiamat and Bahamut, with his alternative views, even Kereska Wonderbringer knows this draconic juggernaut doesn't even serve her cause, and only gave this dragon chosen type abilities for it work on the advancement for all draconics.


----------



## Piratecat

Ahh, it will be a long time before another dragon rears its head in my game. Mind you, I may use a dragon's stats and make it look like something else - but I won't call it a dragon.


----------



## the Jester

Eridanis said:
			
		

> *Which set off big bells for me. I've always loved mind flayers, but their current status as second fiddle to drow has irked me a bit. But this introduces a cool spin to the critter: what if a mind flayer is created, not born? What if illithids capture slaves, and use them not just as slave labor, but take the best and the brightest, inject a tadpole from the main brain into them, and thus propigate the species? It would explain why they're always looking for fresh meat; not just eating brains for sustenance, but changing the brains of the best captives (and those willing & wanting to undergo the transformation) and perverting them to their side. *




Illithids DO reproduce by injecting tadpoles in their slaves' ears.  If you ever get the chance you should read the Illithiad, by the dastardly Bruce Cordell... in which it has, among other things, the urophion, which is what you get when you put an illithid tadpole in a roper's ear.

Nasty.


----------



## Piratecat

*Anyone want to brainstorm?*

Let me ask you folks for your help. I think the PCs might be transported directly in to an underdark trading market in an area that hasn't yet been overrun by ghouls. Drow, illithid, duergar, kuo toa, derro, myconids, surface adventurers, demons, cannibalistic halflings, powerful necromancers; like Erelhei Cirinlu (sp?), the drow city of D3, this place is open for people to buy any number of slaves, peversions, delights, and commodities.

I'd like to get some merchants, scenery or items that are different than what I myself might come up with. One of the dangers of DMing a campaign for a long time is that the players might know what to expect!  If you guys want to share ideas, it'll give me a new perspective on what someplace like this may be like. Plus, it'll provide lots of ideas for you to yoink for your own game. 

I'd love ideas on:

a) cool NPCs with which to delight, oppose, and confound the party, of any levels
b) ideas or architecture, politics, and what makes this place unique
c) creepy or interesting thing for sale.

Thanks!


----------



## arwink

Most of the stuff I came up with for wierd fairs ended up in the Market of Shadows for TFT, some of which can be cut and pasted to this kind of environemnt.  Peaceful interaction between drow and surface elves under market truce, otherworldly guardians that keep the peace, Awakened bears that serve fey selling wierd potions and magic stones, fiendish lizard-folk that deal in artifact level weapons (who is probably going to take a keen interest in the intelligent sword, whose name escapes me at present).

Off the top of my head though:

a)  NPC's
-  Doppleganger Harlots - an oldie but still fun with the right party.  The sales pitch is always fun to come up (come on in.  Anyone you desire, literally anyone you can think of...)
-  Give a myconid a level of paladin, and set him as guard/warden
-  Ever read Neverwhere?  Ratspeakers 
-  Ghardis, a chef who caters exclusively to the discerning underdark gormet (demons, cannabilistic halflings, et al) who is probably quite intrigued by the idea of cooking up the famed defenders.

b)  
- Give it a wierd gravity structure.  Space is usually scarce in underdark realms, so the entire market is magically altered to allow people to take advantage of both roof and walls as extra floor space.
- Taverns carved into the stone where stalegtights and stalegmights reach, with taprooms leading up and down.  Usually divided into rooms catering to different types of creatures
-  Keep the slaves pens near the stalls for whoever is selling minor undead.  If something goes wrong with a live slave, they can be quickly traded (and there will probably be one or two people who deal exclusively in this) and raised in the second market, it keeps the bad smells clustered together and the undead slaves frighten the live ones enough to keep them in line.  You could probably even include a few slavers from the ghoul kingdom.
-  Arcane stones that draw transport magic, making it easier to teleport into designated spots within the market.
-  Some kind of powerful force that causes people to co-opperate.  Evil races may well see the need for this kind of gathering, but natural tendencies will often over-rule reason.  Without someone keeping everyone in line, you're looking at a true untrustworthy den of theives instead of a market.

c)
-  Ithilid tadpoles   There's always bound to be someone who wants that little bit of extra intellect and power, even if it does cost them their sanity/brain etc
- Depending on how you handle resurection/reincarnate, bits of dead body that was once part of a PC.
-  Underdark varients of surface world foods.  Lots of fungal stews, lizard-kebabs and other delicacies
-  The skin of flayed surface elves, magically enchanted so Drow can graft it to their own and infiltrate normal elf society for a time without being given away by their skin tone

Aarrg.  I know I'm going to think of more the moment I hit reply, but it's late and my brains addled.  This is all I'm coming up with at the moment...


----------



## Piratecat

arwink said:
			
		

> *Most of the stuff I came up with for wierd fairs ended up in the Market of Shadows for TFT. *




Was that yours? That was one of my favorite parts of the book. Brilliant stuff.


----------



## arwink

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Was that yours? That was one of my favorite parts of the book. Brilliant stuff. *




  Thanks.

And I'd say mostly mine.  As much as a book that's a team effort and involved the entire enworld boards can be.  Ryan, at least, threw a few things in to the descriptions but the original concepts and drafts for the locations were mine.


----------



## Esiminar

*Some Ideas*

-A "pet" shop selling puppeteers in the guise of other creatures
-An arena where disputes are handled so as to prevent the market from becoming a grand mêlée
-Humanoid "cattle" pens and abattoir
-Stall selling Hands of Glory and Hands of the Mage
-A piper performing with a set of Pipes of Pain
-Cursed items stand; "Would you like a special gift for that hated person? Look no further, here I have a Poisoned Cloak or if you wish a little more class how about this Necklace of Strangulation? No? It's your loss."

A place like this is ideal to feature some of the darker magic items like:
-Demon Armor
-Darkskulls
-Hands of Glory
-Hands of the Mage
-Mask of the Skull
-Pipes of Pain


----------



## Eridanis

Some knick-knacks that might be found for sale here:

- An intricately carved glass egg that's enchanted to fill the area with 30 feet with a selected scent ("Miss the sulpher of the Abyss? Then never leave home without this!")

- An abacus that magically touts up every kill you make (perfect for the vain, bloodthirsty fighter you love)

- copies of the _Kama Sutra for Outsiders_ (when you just aren't sure what to do with that brand-new mortal slave)

- a "Keep Dry" stone that, when waved over a piece of normal clothing, will suck out the moisture picked up in weeks of underground travelling

I've always wanted to work up the stats for an engineering and design company in a fantasy world - you know, dwarves, wizards, and stone golems working together on big projects, kind of like the Army Corps of Engineers. There would certainly be a company representative that could be found in a bazaar like this, ready to accept contracts on that terrible cave-in that's just cut off the drow outpost that's so important to your defenses.


----------



## Nail

My biggest concern with these sorts of Megopolis' is their...well, there existence.  In order to sell anything you need law and order.   ...How does that happen?  What greater force keeps all of the others in line?  

And given that there must be a greater force...why did it set this city up to begin with?

Re: Memorable NPCs.  
    I'd try for something as ordinary as possible...perhaps a portly human shop-keeper, selling rations, supplies, and what-not.  This city's bound to have everyone and his uncle be a half-drow/half-illithid/half fiend doppleganger that sells undead pupeteer slaves....<yawn>...   Make the ordinary extraordinary!


----------



## Piratecat

Nail, I'm not picturing a city so much as a small trading post at a natural conjunction of tunnels. I'm not worried about who's going to keep people in line; as far as I'm concerned, this is a place of mutual convenience that people patronize because they can't get what they need anywhere else. Often times, creatures come in and trash sections of it - and the other merchants probably hide until the danger goes away. There are enough semi-powerful to powerful creatures there that annoying all of them would be unwise for the far-sighted traveler. I actually _want_ a place where Emirikol the Chaotic might fireball a stand that cheats him, and then go into the arena to settle the disagreement once and for all. Since it's a "set piece" and not the basis for an entire campaign, I don't have to worry yet about any hidden masters.  

Anyways, great ideas. I'll map the place out when all is said and done.  I'm much more interested in NPCs with personality than with "half-template" power.


----------



## Grim

How about the Cat-O-Matic?

This was something a group I was in witnessed in an underdark carnaval.  The description went something like this:

As you round the corner, you see a large crowd gathered 'round a raised platform. On the platform is a large machine and a jovial bugbear yelling to the crowd.

The machine is a complicated set of pulleys, gears, chains, and metal pipes. On the top of it is a basket-like funnel, full of cute baby kittens.

"COME ONE COME ALL and see the cat-o-matic! It slices..."

He turns a large crank on the side. A peal of meows as squishing noises become squeeling gears crunchings, and the machine spits out evenly sliced... meat, into the screaming crowd.

"... It dices..." He turns the crack again, this time with more effort, and small cubes of meat spill out of the tubes in the machine onto the crowd

"... It even purees!" With all the effort he is capable of, the bugbear inches the crank around, and red liquid sprays over the masses. The scream in joy, holding up bags of coing and yelling for more...

mmm... kitty chow...


----------



## Urbanmech

You need to have beholder architects.  For when you need to hollow out that stalagtite tower.  Maybe have the architect assisted by a bevy of charmed pech or dwarven helpers.  For an additional cost it can add realistic statuary to your new underdark abode.  Just don't criticise his "vision" or you may find yourself on the wrong end of a disintegration ray.

Galastor
Male Beholder
Large Aberration
13d8+13 (71 hp) CR 14
Initiative: +4 (Improved Initiative)
Speed: 5 ft., fly 20 ft. (good)
AC: 20 (-1 size, +11 natural)
Attacks: Eye rays +8 ranged touch, bite +3 melee
Damage: Bite 2d4
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Eye rays
Special Qualities: All-around vision, antimagic cone, fly
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +12
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 15
Skills: Hide +7, Knowledge (arcana) +10, Knowledge (underdark architecture) +12, Listen +15, Search +18, Spot +20
Feats: Alertness, Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Shot on the Run

Eye Rays Range 150' DC 18, as 13th lv sorcerer


----------



## Spatzimaus

My thoughts:

> You could do a spin on the usual setup by having a "Black Market" in surface-world items (especially anything requiring a Good alignment; would that make it a "White Market"?)
Some enterprising neutral Human mage goes up to the surface, buys all sorts of items from the good guys, then teleports down to the market to sell the items to all those races who desperately want certain items (*cough*Sunblade*cough*) but can't make them for themselves.  I mean, no one specializes in anti-Undead like the good guys, but those races currently resisting the White Kingdom need stuff NOW.  Vials of Holy Water are a good example of this.
Some races might not like the idea of having holy items being sold in their market, so this is done quietly.  Likewise, you might have him sell anti-Illithid items for other paranoid Underdark residents, but you don't want the Illithids themselves to know who has the items or where they got them from.
It'd need to be someone who could fit in well with the setting without actually being evil... that Shadow Mind psion PrC I linked would probably work, if you made him focus on Telepathy and Psychoportation.  A bit crazy, somewhat mercenary, but powerful enough to survive this sort of setting.

Other possible encounters:
> Golem salesman.  Picture him as a used-car salesman, trying to sell you a Flesh Golem.  Maybe a bit too cheesy, but it could be fun, especially if he's competing with the slave traders for business.  Sort of like Arwink's undead deal; unruly slaves are sold at a discount to the golem makers for raw materials.
> The exotic food market.  If Illithid are members of this community, you HAVE to have a Brain section.  Freshly-harvested brains from various exotic races, held in stasis/Quintessence to preserve quality.  It wouldn't all have to be disgusting stuff, though; there'd be a demand for rare spices or ingredients, especially if you have a restaurant next door with a good chef who knows how to cook ANYTHING.
> The "movie theater".  Remember how the Defenders have fans who'd pay to watch them from Dylrath's room?  You could have a shop that uses a big crystal ball to watch surface-world battles (the Church of Aeos versus the Necromancer Kings would be popular).  It's especially fun if you give them a "record" function, so that the ball can replay past battles, although there you're getting awfully close to the Sensatorium concept.  Problem: it'd be a big source of information to be able to see exactly what happened at, say, Mrid without using divinations.
For "current" battles, betting pools on the outcome are optional.

> Architecture:
You could have fun with extradimensional spaces here.  Presumably, many of these merchants are powerful spellcasters.  They'd want the ability to seal/remove/relocate their shops if needed.  So, some (not all) of the shops could be located somewhere else with just an entrance portal in the market, or maybe it's less obvious, like a storefront that leads to an impossibly large shop.
You could also tie into this by using a variant on the Daern's Fortress: shops that shrink down to a small cube when the owner closes up for the night.  So, a shop might not be in the same place two days in a row, and there'd be some competition for the good spots.

> In fact, the entire market could be semi-nomadic.  They pick a town, set up in a cavern nearby, and stay there until local conditions become unpleasant or until the waste piles up, at which point they pick a new home and migrate.  The mundane residents (mostly nonmagical "weak" races like Kobolds who do the grunt work) have to travel the old-fashioned way, but the magical ones simply appear once the market has re-established.
The only constant is centerpiece of the market, a very distinctive statue that casters can scry to find the market's current location.  Since any change in the statue itself would cause Teleports to go badly, damaging or defacing the statue is usually a capital offense.  I keep thinking of the statue from the Hitchhiker's books, where Arthur had 50 arms, each of which was killing Agrajag's reincarnations in a different way.  Something irreproducibly distinctive and intimidating.  (Hmm, wonder if P'Keen could be brought back into the story?)


----------



## Caliber

For some reason my mind conjures up the image of a crazy old trapper/skinner. Instead of beaver pelts, perhaps he is bringing in brains for the mind flayers, or some otherwise creepy kind of pelt. 

Another idea I have thought of before is an awakened mouse that pulls a Wizard of Oz style stunt. Ignore the rodent inside the mouse hole!


----------



## Ancalagon

There was an underground traiding post in dungeon magazine no 75, ran by duergar.

You could take that as a root, and expand it.  The Duergar are still running the show, but they could be overwhelmed by some of the more powerfull merchant... but they like things not too rowdy, so they let the duergar stay "in charge".   The place could be at a "crossroad", each tunel entry walled and garded by duergar gards.

Water is an important resource in the underdark, and perhaps the duergar (or another group) have complete control over a water source at the post.

Creepy products:

-Troll in a box.

Troll blood is an important ingredient in the creation of healing potions.  It is fairly abudant on the surface (some of the few semi-civilised trolls even sell their own blood on the side), but trolls are rare in several areas of the underdark.
The Troll in a box is an iron crate, with a troll stuffed inside.  One hole is used to feed the troll, one hole is used to evacuate waste, one is for air intake and one is for blood collection.  Should the troll be rescued, it will take him a few hours to go from cube shape to a functional troll form, at wich point he will attack everyone in a rage, turned mad by its poor treatment.  The troll in a box probides enough blood to halve the creation cost of up to 10 healing potions a day.

Ancalagon


----------



## Caliber

Appropriately enough, Wizards has just put up two online supplements for the Underdark.

I dunno if you've read them yet, but you can see them here

Monsters of the Underdark 

and here

Spells of the Underdark


----------



## Nail

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Since it's a "set piece" and not the basis for an entire campaign, I don't have to worry yet about any hidden masters.   *




True enough.  Still, the "masters" of the place might be an interesting well o' ideas.   I guess I just like NPC that are interesting and have a solid "reason for existence".

The masters could just be two or three powerful merchants, who are based in other areas but have "trading arms" set up deep in the underdark.  The shops of the three big merchants have attracted other, smaller merchants and traders to the scene.  Although there are no law-keeping force per se, self-interest keeps most in-line most of the time.

As for specific NPCs, I still think an "ordinary" human might be a great idea, especially when contrasted with all of the other rabble down there.  Perhaps he's just a relatively high level rogue with a penchant for the dark and exotic?  And yet his portly and open demeanor would mark him for a clean-living "nice" guy.  He's just _got_ to sell some slimey, vile product...then again, perhaps he sells Holy Water (credits to *Spatzimaus*).

(It's pretty hard to get a "strange" NPC from a campaign that's "seen it all", isn't it?)

This area also seems like a great place to recycle some of those old NPCs and plot threads you've got hanging around.  Good grief, there must be a few appropriate old ones in your "cast of thousands"!


----------



## Kaodi

*Ideas*

Jeez Louise... Not sure I can top some of the things already put down. All I can think of right now is an Advanced Hound Archon / Blackguard or something similiar that hires out as a bounty hunter and a tough. I will try to come up with more.


----------



## Capellan

*And Now for Something Completely Different*

Myconid groupies for the Defenders.

With pet Shriekers that they poke sticks to provide the requisite screaming.


----------



## Jeremy

A platoon of kobold's with very vision-inhibitive helmets on armed with staves with porcupines lashed to the end of the stick! 

They thump the porcupine on the ground once to get it nice and worked up, then they thwack people with the porcupine when they get out of line.

No one retaliates because of who backs the kobolds.  And because attacking kobolds should seem to be beneath them or else their reputation would suffer!


----------



## Kaodi

*Quick Idea*

The idea of a White Market was really good, and as for slaves, that is what this idea pertains too:

Have some monster/creature is slavery that has the Legendary Template attached to it, and then make some kind of reason that the PCs need to free it. Not sure if this is what you want, and I don't have time to write on it more at the moment as I have to disconnect.


----------



## LightPhoenix

Brain Pies.  No market is complete without them.  Great for creeping players out when illithids come around to buy them


----------



## rackabello

At least one of the stalls should have statuettes of Vendelo for sale....It'd be a particularly unexpected time and place for the poor old saint to be confronted with his unwanted celebrity.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman

...and amongst all these mad, weird, crazy, possibly evil loonies - have a man selling Sausage-inna-bun.

Why?

Because there is *always* someone trying to sell a sausage-inna-bun, wherever you go.

Pull out some real old corny D&D cliches. A man that runs a magic shop with a load of nearly useless items, but forbids magic use within his shop (so no casting _detect magic_ on the sly to see what really is magical). An inn with a crusty old wizard sat in the corner that tries to get the PC's involved in something.

And I also think a very lost elf with some kind of disguise magic would be a nice bit of light relief. Imagine a 1st level elf in the Underdark by mistake...


----------



## Spatzimaus

Not that you should try it here, but something I've always wanted to pull on my players... a kid.

Just a normal, no-ability, teenager with a really high CHA (Expert 3 or so, with most of the skill points going to Bluff and Knowledge (local)).  Lousy equipment, physically weak, that sort of thing.  Nothing that'd cause a powerful creature to see any sort of threat.
How many people put ranks into Sense Motive, anyway?  Besides Palladio, that is.

They're in this place in the Underdark, full of horrendous creatures that gives these divinely-empowered paragons of light the willies, and in the middle of it all is someone who's managed to convince everyone that he's really powerful simply by the obvious fact that if he wasn't, he wouldn't be there.   (see also: Somebody Else's Problem field, Invisible Pink Unicorns)
After all, anyone that obviously weak has either massive innate abilities or very powerful friends.  So, everyone has simply assumed that this kid is not someone to be trifled with.
Give him an item that prevents scrying and mindreading, and he bluffs his way through it all (maybe an item that gives +10 or +20 to Bluff).  He's smart enough to stay around intelligent races (since you can't bluff an animal to not eat you as easily), and is mostly just seeing the sights.

Originally this basic concept came from an old campaign, except there, he also had a curse that gave him immortality in the Wile E. Coyote fashion; that is, no damage was ever fatal.  Add this to the "When Wishes Go Bad" file under "eternal life".
Set off a trap, he'd be fine in a few minutes; he wouldn't gain XP from any encounter in which he died, so he pretty much always stayed a low-level NPC.  But, he had all the accumulated memories of a lifetime of reckless adventuring, so he could easily come up with plausible lies.
I don't think this ability is absolutely necessary to the concept, but YMMV.


----------



## Greybar

Sounds like John Constantine, who I was introduced to in "The Books of Magic" in Neil Gaiman's world.  There is a scene where the Constantine is standing with a boy (the subject of mighty prophesy and talent) is in a room with a horde of powerful demons, devils, wizards, etc etc etc.

He is edging the boy towards to door, and quite confidently says something to the effect of:

"You are all, no doubt, quite aware of my reputation.  The boy and I will now depart and no one will be hurt."

Those who know his rep pause, and all those who don't assume the worse when they see the other big baddies taking pause.

The boy is in wonder, until Constantine explains that he has practically no magical power whatsoever.  But he once managed to imprision/destroy a demon of great power (thru luck and circumstance) and since then everything rumour wise has just kept piling up...

John


----------



## Piratecat

These are great. I'm prepping the trading post for next game, this Thursday. I have a name in mind, I think, but anyone want to suggest one?

When they are teleported in, I'm going to have them split up to 6 different spots across the area. That way they won't arrive in one tough clump; instead, they'll come in two people here, three people there. Much more... interesting.    It will especially be fun for those folks who bamf in to the middle of the small gladitorial arena used for fun and solving arguments.


----------



## incognito

HI PC,

I _just_ though of a neat one!

How about an exact clone of an old humanoid enemy of the PCs - but without that naaaasty evil alignment or hidden agenda?

If the enemy was:

selfish, the clone will be altruistic
sneaky, the clone will be forthright
violent, the clone will be a pacifist, or at least cowardly.
a spell caster, the clone will bear martial weapons or wear at least medium armor (non mithiril).

Be evasive with providing the clone's backstory

They won't know what to make of him/her/it.

Neat, right?

_EDIT: Oh good golly, what about the PCs bumping into a clone of: THEMSLEVES!_


----------



## Ashy

*this* Thursday???  Awwwww, PC, I'm never gonna be able to get these ideas to ya by then....    Blasted work - don't they know I game for a livin'???


----------



## Piratecat

Regarding today's story hour:

Recipe for a Coin Golem

Take one iron golem. Remove appearance, keeping its stats and setting aside. Replace iron with coins. Replace poison gas breath weapon with a breath weapon of sharpened coins that does 10d6 damage (DC same as iron golem's), plus 1d4 wounding per round thereafter if save is failed. Add fast healing 5 if coin golem is standing on loose coins. Add secret vulnerability to be mentioned later.

Stir well, and bake in a _flame strike_ at 700 degrees for one round.  

Seriously, this is the easy path to cool monsters!  Shuck off something else's appearance, change a few abilities (within a theme) to keep the experienced players guessing, and you're good to go.


----------



## incognito

It's like a template without all the number crunching.


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

Didn't you once have a race of rat people in your underdark?

Maybe the Defenders ought to need to hire one for a guide--like that kid in the Majipoor Labrynth--Hissune?

You remember--the one who charges the visitors 3 copper to get guided through the maze of twisty little passages to an important site, and then charges them 10 gold to help them find their way out.

Not that that exact shill would work on the Defenders, I'm sure, but you get the idea.


----------



## Kaodi

*Monster of Legend*

I was looking through the SRD for suitable monsters to apply the Monster of Legend template to, and finally while looking through the I,J,K section I spotted the Kuo-Toa. I remembered that the Kuo-Toa were present (or at least mentioned) in the original adventure and I was wondering if they had any place in yours. With this I was thinking that a Kuo-Toa of Legend Cleric 12 (who is mildly evil, hehehe) or there abouts would make an interesting character to add in. If you are interested, PirateCat,  I could make up some statistics and post them here.


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

In case you think of a cool word to use as the first part of the name, here are some generic names for a place deep undergound where a couple of tunnels converge (since this isn't a "city" per se):

Junction/Knot/Cross/Splice/'Fluence/Tangle/Groin

Sump/Seep/Slough

Hole/Pit/Tunnel/Fall

(You can stick any of these after a cool noun and get stuff like "Cutterhead Junction," "Bugbear Sump," "Goblin Splice","Zaitaro's 'Fluence," "Loblolly Seep")


'Course this gives the whole atmosphere a sort of "Dukes of Hazard" feel . . .

For more fungus names than anybody could ever use for anything apart from naming all the fungus species in California, check out  http://www.mykoweb.com/CAF/species_index.html

A few choice ones:
Simocybe, Gomphus, Suillus, Polyporous, Collybia, Phellinus, Inocybe, and Psathyrella.

There's even a Nolanea, Marasmius, and Agaricus!

There's cool photos of most of them, too.


----------



## Bronz Dragon

BAH!  ... wouldn't you know, I finally get a good idea for the marketplace on the night PC is using them..  Oh well.

Here it is for any RBDMs who like playing nasty tricks on their PCs.

Some demon is selling a truly groteque peice of armor.  It looks like an Ankheg carapace or some such, but the shopkeeper claims all these wonderful things about it:  it melds with your skin, giving you complete freedom of movement(no max dexterity); you never have to take it off to sleep as it feels completely natural; etc etc, some random other magic powers. 

What he doesn't tell you is that it is evilly intelligent when awakened.  Until some nefarious condition, such as the wearer slaying a foe.  It will 'awaken' and slowly begin insinuating itself into the wearer's consciousness.  Every 1d4 days the wearer must make a will save (DC 24, or thereabouts)or his alignment will move one notch toward chaotic evil  (ex.: a lawful good PC will become Neutral good, then true neutral, then true chaotic, then chaotic evil).  As this process goes along, the PC will become irritable and snappish toward his compatriots, becoming more and more violent (this can get interesting with a spellcaster), eventually trying to kill them all. 

Attempts to remove the armor will harm the PC (the armor is part of their skin.  About 1d8 con damage from blood loss plus scarring), causing him great pain especially after the armor is awakened, in which case it will dig in and actively resist the separation.

In less that a few weeks, demon boy has a new slave to play with, plus some extra gold!


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

*Fried Mice*

This idea prolly too late, too.

Howzabout a fried mice stand?

Like this: the shopkeeper has a cage full of live mice. He grabs a few, drops em squirming into a sort of cement slurry, and then picks 'em up by the tails and drops 'em into hot oil. A minute or so late, he uses one of those long handled wire basket ladles like you use with a wok and scoops the poor bastards out. 

Y'all supposed to pick 'em up by the tail, give 'em a sharp rap on the counter to break off the coating and all the hair goes with it. Then you dip the pink bits in sauce and eat 'em whole.

I suppose you could use pinkies instead--you know--blind hairless baby mice--and skip the cement batter.

Mmmmm.


----------



## mythago

*Re: The Kid*

Used sparingly, kids are great for unnerving party members. Experienced gamers are likely to be on the watch for "innocent cherub who is actually a shapeshifted demon" trick, but there are many other possibilities....


----------



## JacktheRabbit

*Re: Re: The Kid*

So be nasty, have an innocent cherub that really is an innocent cherub.

No one in the town messes with the cherub because everyone in the town thinks the cherub just HAS to be something big and powerful shapechanged.

In the end though the cherub really is a very minor angel that cannot get out of the village and is scared to death that one day his secret will get out that he really is no more than he appears to be.




			
				mythago said:
			
		

> *Used sparingly, kids are great for unnerving party members. Experienced gamers are likely to be on the watch for "innocent cherub who is actually a shapeshifted demon" trick, but there are many other possibilities.... *


----------



## MTR

*Coin Golem*

You know, my first thought was "I wonder if he just used an iron golem... no, it wouldn't be powerful enough."  I imagine it worked out ok since only two combat types went through the portal and there was the ghoul king too.  But I would expect more of the defenders to blow the thing away.  Did you have alternate plans if more had gone in?


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

I should think the odd thing about meeting people who live quite so far "down under" is that they've never seen the sun at all.

Aeos? What's that? And why has your circle shape emblem got a jagged edge?

Somewhere  inthe bazzar there's a vendor of --uh--bioluminescent mold? Or, uh, a hat monger who sells hats with blobs of luminescent stuff on 'em. Or those kind of shoes that light up when you step on 'em.

Or elixirs that improve your infravision. Or dampen your own heat aura. Cold and quiet is as good as invisible to an underworlder in the dark, eh? Shawls of chilliness.(Watm and toasty inside, dead cold outside)

How about artwork that isn't meant to be "seen" at all? It's all done in texture and heat.

Fabrics of spun fungus. Leather goods made from amphibious albino things. 

Deelies you can buy that help you feel when the ceiling is suddenly getting low, so you don't bang your head. Strap on whiskers so you can gauge whether a tunnel opening will be wide enough for your body.  Barbels that can sense electrical currents in the air so you can tell when a living thing is approaching--no wait--electricity is too tech--they pick up infinitesimal smells so you can taste what's happening around you . . . that would work on undead too.

And I'd love to see Nolin walking around with deelies and barbels stuck on.

Don't forget the look on Tao's riding lizard's face when they walk past the fried mice stand . ..


----------



## Piratecat

We game on Thursdays - tonight!

And I have to tell you, you guys are a tremendous help. Akin, you have the best useful posts/total posts ratio I've ever seen!  

Tonight, the PCs will probably reach the little trading post of Akin's Seep, a mushroom-filled cavern filled with all _kinds_ of fun. Whoo hoo!


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

I'm touched.  Really touched.


----------



## Piratecat

Not as touched as the PCs will be when they eat fried mice.

Really, there's lots of good ideas here; for instance, I'm going to change Incognito's idea a bit and maybe have someone offering to make clones of people who pay enough... and leave some of their flesh behind, of course. I also have something planned with children, too, straight out of the Book of Vile Darkness.  This will be fun.

Kaodi, where is Monster of Legend from? As it turns out, a kuo toa will need to figure prominently in an upcoming adventure, and seeing a badass kuo toa is just the thing! You may want to see Kamakazi Midget's writeup on Blibdoolpoolp if you haven't already; it's pretty sweet.


----------



## Bill Muench

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Kaodi, where is Monster of Legend from? As it turns out, a kuo toa will need to figure prominently in an upcoming adventure, and seeing a badass kuo toa is just the thing! You may want to see Kamakazi Midget's writeup on Blibdoolpoolp if you haven't already; it's pretty sweet. *




_Monster Manual II_, page 213. While nifty, I've found the template rather bland, personally.


----------



## Piratecat

Then remind me to make Klixxit a kobold of legend, too.


----------



## Capellan

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Then remind me to make Klixxit a kobold of legend, too.   *




Wouldn't Klixxit be a Paragon Kobold, instead?  _Much_ scarier.  But then, it is from the ELH


----------



## Piratecat

I'm sorry, did I say they were headed to the nice safe trading post? What I MEANT to say is that they were taking on a horrible undead force sent to wipe them out completely, that I thought they would avoid!

Hoo boy. This will be an interesting battle.


----------



## Grim

will you include the Githzerai "task force" in said battle? need more undead goodness? 'Cause I have even more devious evil bubbleing in my head....


----------



## Kaodi

*Cleric Levels*

How much badass is required here? 12, 15 or 18 cleric levels of badass (plus the badass template, naturally).


----------



## Bronz Dragon

*Fried Mice*

make the vendor have a heavy accent, or mumble and slur his words.  "Fried Rice!  Fried Rice!"

Nolin: "I'll have some"

Vendor: "okey gokey"  *ploop*  *plip* *sizzle*

PCs:  "what were those?"

OOH!  and make sure you have chinese that night, and order fried rice.  I know nobody eats it, but heck, it'll add to the illusion.  Give 'em chicken wings as the mice..  

... I think I'm done now ...


----------



## Piratecat

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Hoo boy. This will be an interesting battle. *




No real problem, although there were some tense moments. Three of Gidien's Soul Stitched undead constructs destroyed; 2 advanced undead beholders and one Kellharin-inhabited Soul Stitched survived! The PCs very cleverly divided their enemies and split them up, using walls to hedge out half the attackers. Clever little goobers.  

So, next game at Akin's Seep, with luck! And details on this in a week or so.


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

Hey.  That gives me another week to dump ideas on you.

(You sure we couldn't call this place "Akin Groin?")

It occurs to me that the stuff that makes bleu cheese blue is basically mold. Maybe there ought to be a stall for that stuff. No cheese, mind you, just the bleu stuff.

And volcanic hot springs. There ought to be massages and sulphurous mineral goop for sale. Or is that sulphuric?

And an endless rain of stalactites dripping in one section--not over the whole market--but perhaps just in one area that specializes in selling "weather" to the weather deprived.

And, la piece de resistance: the volcanic steam stalagmite calliope. (see the Postmodern D20 "Wall of PVC" post)

I got a million of 'em . . .


----------



## Spatzimaus

Not that I'm questioning your players... okay, I am... but there's something I have to know.  When they're in the vault, they KNOW a ghoul is somewhere ahead of them, and that it was someone who knew the layout of the vault better than they did.  They're only sending a few people at a time... didn't ANYONE say "Hey, why don't we send the Sunblade-wielding Hunter of the Dead as one of the first wave?"  Especially considering Nolin's problem with unconsciousness.  The way you wrote it, it seemed more like "we sent these three last time, let's do it again".

Anyway, can't wait to see the trading post.  Akin's post reminded me of something; there are a lot of subterranean creatures that can burrow.  There'd have to be items that give you a sort of Tremorsense to know when one is approaching you.  Or a variant on the Prying Eyes spell that doesn't die when it hits a wall and can see in darkness.


----------



## Ashy

Yea!  Another week!  Now *I* might get a chance to add some ideas....  As soon as my achin' mouth gets better - just had all four wisdom teeth yoinked... OOOOUUCH!

Akin's Seep sounds good to me, but you'd need something seeping in - maybe some sort of hallucenigenic mold spores or something - maybe that is why everyone is so friendly to one another!


----------



## Kaodi

*Kuo-Toa of Legend*

I was just building some stats for a level 18 Cleric Kuo-Toa of Legend... and really, it could be quite nasty, hehehe...

PirateCat, am I jumping the gun here? Do you already have this Kuo-Toa worked out? And is there anything specific you wanted it to have if you didn't?


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

What an excellent suggestion, Spatzimaus. 

Much as I like the volcanic steam calliope, it occurs to me that what would be even _more_ fun would be a series of competing noise generating things.

You know, when you walk through a county fair, there's always the barkers, and the music from a dozen different sources, all trying to get your attention.

For example, how about a group of goblin minstrels playing clarinets and accordians? I picture them doing the music from the Cantina scene in Star Wars, in a seriously minor key. Cheery and macabre at the same time. Busy, festive"shop now" music, with overtones of "while you still can."

I've always imagined that dwarves play bagpipes. Now consider the possibilities that so many dwarves have died, and there might be a lot of these left lying around near the field of battle, suitable for scavenging, and that some amateurs might have picked them up.  Imagine Meepo's Bagpipe Instruction booth. All the damage you can do _with_ a bagpipe for  5 cu.
Or _to_ a bagpipe for 5 gp.


----------



## Fade

Bagpipes with air elementals trapped inside so you don't have to keep pumping them.


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

Hmmm .. . .

no, but picture this:

You are walking through the market.  

There are all these gawdawful noises. The source of the worst of the noises seems to be the bagpipe stand, but there's heavy competition for the title from the calliope and the clarinet and concertina wielding buskers. 

 And then suddenly, there's this _wail_ that cuts through the whole market for a moment--not just the sound of a bagpipe being abused, but of one crying out in pain--not just pain -- true agony, grief and soul-rending despair.

The noise is cut off abruptly, and the whole market falls eerily silent for a moment as everyone turns to look at a goblin urchin who hastily plunks a battered old bagpipe back on the counter and sheepishly exits stage right.

It is a bagpipe of legend, the Voice of the King--a noble instrument that has heralded the coronation of sovereigns, inspired troops marching into battle, and wrought terror in the ranks of its foes.  

It's fallen on hard times, and it's _not_ happy.


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

http://www.hotpipes.com/main.html


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

or this:


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

or this:


(you know the old joke: 
Question: If a bagpipe and an accordian fall from a twelve story building, which one hits first?
Answer: Who cares?)

(I'd be amused to see what the party would do--I'll bet after your first description of the cacophany, they'd be ready to slaughter all bagpipes indiscriminately. Would they have pity on one really fine instrument? Would they even stop to look, or head right on by--they're very busy people these days . . .)

(Or imagine, Nolin's instrument demanding the destruction of the poor thing, on point of principle.)


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

last one:

(unless I have time to do a drawing for you of the kobold concertina and bowed saw orchestra.)


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

*Help I can't stop myself . . .*

(Piratecat, has my ratio of posts/useful posts normalized yet?)

Ok, just three words this time:

Albino Drow fishmonger.


----------



## med stud

Something really creepy would be a ordinary human teenager that is an evil prodigy (I suppose prodigy means very gifted child). Make the child as a freaked out Lolita- kind of 15th lvl necromancer/enchanter who runs an evil guild or organisation that have a strong position in the trading post.

Especially the enchantress kind of teenage evil can make for a very grotesque cross between forbidden lust and fear for the people she meets, something that she uses all the time.

You could make her fake a repentance, and then backstab the PCs. Or cast a still, silent charm person on one of the PCs (Nolin would be the perfect victim) and make the other PCs be disgusted with the PCs behaviour.

Now, if you prefer a less dark mood (or more Eric's grandma  ) the teenager can be a shapechanged something, but that isnt as unsettling IMO.


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

. . . somewhere in the market there ought to be a lone orc guarding at 10x10 pie stand . . .


----------



## Spatzimaus

Oh man, that'd be funny.  Have a "museum" from the point of view of the bad guys; for example, one exhibit would be a 10x10 room with a lone Orc (illusionary) guarding a chest, with a little plaque outside commemorating the valiant death of Kurg the Magnificent at the hands of an evil party of surfacedwellers (a Cleric, a Wizard, a Fighter, and a Rogue).  I'm sure someone could come up with more cliches to use.


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

Actually, the area is most famous for its graffitti.  

You're chaotic, and your mother didn't bring you up to be nice, you live in a place with lots of walls, you draw on them.

or carve 'em up.

For example.


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

*Even the Orchestra is Beautiful*

Thing is, the above obscene doodle of a bunch of stark naked kobold ladies playing wind instruments (apart from the kinky one who's wearing a kilt, and the fat lady playing the drum) has garnered a certain sentimental popularity, resulting in souvenir brassware being sold depicting the infamous fresco.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Akin Ringpeace said:
			
		

> *. . . somewhere in the market there ought to be a lone orc guarding at 10x10 pie stand . . . *




You know, I just got my Orc & Pie shirts today -- one for me, one for a group member, and one as a gift...


----------



## LightPhoenix

We were making gingerbread men at a party, and I made an mind-player gingerbread man (which no one got).  Anyway, so I was thinking, you always bite the head off of gingerbread men and make a big deal out of it... any reason that real people couldn't be used in the market?

["og" is not equal to "of"]


----------



## Black Omega

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> *We were making gingerbread men at a party, and I made an mind-player gingerbread man (which no one got).  Anyway, so I was thinking, you always bite the head off of gingerbread men and make a big deal out of it... any reason that real people couldn't be used in the market?
> *



No reason at all except it might not fit with what is wanted.

I saw human candy used in a more recent Dirty Pair by Adam Warren and it was pretty sick.


----------



## Kaodi

*Hordes of Undead*

If I were an evil lord over ghouldom, and every time my troops were fried by powerful positive energy, what would I do...

I would construct a horrible weapon that A) blankets an area with so much negative energy that positive energy just doesn't do anything; or B) suck all positive energy up and redirects it into a powerful ray of positive energy to be used upon enemy clerics by filling them up with so much positive energy, they die.

Of course, if you were to choose option B, and you fired a massive amount of positive energy at Velendo, I suppose if you wanted to instead of killing him, you turned him into a 11 year old  or something, hehehehe... that would make for an interesting plot twist.


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

*Seep Eco-gnomics*

So, I went to see Harry Potter last night. Good film.

But after, the pal I'm with says, "What's with the thousand year old bathroom with Victorian fixtures?"

"Magic," I say. "it's not like there's real plumbing there anyhow. If you want to update it, you just wave your wand and say "Johnnus Redecoratum" or something like that and all the fixtures reconfigure. They're all just portals to the Elemental Plane of Sewage, you know."

And then we give each other a significant look and I add, "I didn't just say that."

"Demi Plane of Ooze between Earth and Water, as I recall," he adds. "Or is that quasi?"


See, the problem is, surface dwellers have it easy. You want to build a privvy, you dig a hole in the ground, and after a while, you muck it out and manure a field with it.

In the Underdark, there aren't any fields, and finding a spot to dig a deep hole that doesn't wind up causing complaints from hostile downstairs tenants is a pain.  And you can't even burn the crap, excuse the expression, because most of the inhabitants of the underdark are carniverous, and carnivore dung makes lousy fuel.

So, naturally. 

The reason Akin's Seep is a popular crossroads is that it's got the only clean privvies for miles. Fathoms. However you measure these things in the Underdark. 
Bit tricky making one way extraplanar portals, but somebody managed it. 

Nice deal is, if you've got pipelines, you can charge folks to drain their caverns. Not just a crossroads, more of a confluence.

And suddenly, you've got a nice little politcal leverage to avoid getting conquered by one Underdark Empire or another. Too valuable to put out of business, and nobody really wants to own you. A free market, indeed. 

Until you've got a whole lot of undead walking around who don't give a crap, as it were.

Let's hope Somebody never had to deal with any Elementals.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman

To quote from someone's signature:

"You're very strange...have I ever told you that?"

LMAO, though


----------



## the Jester

Akin, I really like your idea....


----------



## Ashy

LOL!!  Reminds me of this:

http://www.planewalker.com/so/ae/pp/portableportalpotty.shtml 

Something I wrote several years ago...


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

Too thcary!


Ashy, you obviously have a fine and brilliant mind, much like my own.

A thcary thought in and of itself.

I thought I was alone out here, apart from the Voices . . .

(aw, an' look. Yer've even got stats for me very own Sewage Elementals stuck in it .  . . )


----------



## Ashy

LOL!!  I thank you for the compliment, my friend!    We should author something together sometime - our combined brilliant insanity would shock and awe the gathered throngs!    Did you read the article on maintenance, BTW?


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

I most certainly did, and a fine read that was, too.

And terrible, desperate thoughts of collaboration crossed the synapses of my muck at that very moment as well.

Clearly, this is meant to be.

You pick the venue and the  topic.


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

I am outmatched, and conceed the round.

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33799


----------



## Ashy

::chuckle::  sounds good! Drop me an email and we'll chat!


----------



## Piratecat

Akin Ringpeace said:
			
		

> *(You sure we couldn't call this place "Akin Groin?")
> *




Yes.  Yes, I'm quite sure.  Shudder.  

Some of the other ideas you guys have are quite brilliant, though! In no particular order:

 - I'm definitely going with a fungus theme. I think the stands will use giant mushrooms for awnings, and Akin himself will still be wandering around after these ten years - a mold-covered fungal intelligence living in a former adventurer's body.  He doesn't say anything, he just wanders and observes, and everyone stays clear of him.

 - I'll probably pass on the calliope. It's a cool image, but too anachronistic for my own game. I do intend to have steam.  The dripping stalagtites is a nice touch, too.  As for music... very cool, interesting idea. I'll have to think about it. The Voice of the King might be too good to pass up, though.

- Spatz, good thought on the tremorsense, but I don't think I want my PCs getting ahold of something like that!  Yeek.  

- Kaodi, what +ECL does the "of legend" template add? I'll probably end up shooting for something around CR 21-22 or so if the PCs head in that direction.  If you're doing something for your own fun, though, I'd love to see it!

- I'll pass on the albino drow - the halflings are getting the albino treatment - but a kuo toa fishmonger has such delightful possibilities. Especially if he's a spy for the ghouls.

- Med stud, I can't do that, but the idea of Nolin acquiring some groupies may be too good to pass up. Especially because he's going up a level, and that means more followers for his leadership feat.

- Nice engraving.  *grin*

- Sewage. Hrmmm. Err. Ummm.  Fascinating...?

Hee hee... thanks!  I'll have an update posted tomorrow, and I'll be using some of this Thursday. I can't wait!


----------



## the Jester

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Hee hee... thanks!  I'll have an update posted tomorrow, and I'll be using some of this Thursday. I can't wait! *




Neither can we..

So- are you gonna wrap up your campaign after the White Kingdom??


----------



## Kaodi

*Kuo Toa of Legend*

Not sure what the +ECL is, and it is getting late so I will check it tomorrow. An alternate idea I had was to make the Kua Toa a Divine Agent instead of a Cleric, which would fit more with the fact that it is a Monster of Legend in the first place. If you are looking at CR 22 tops, I will see if I can cook up something for that level, I can always mix in some fighter levels with the divine agent idea. The only thing I am still thinking on is what to make the weapon, because an Unholy Shock Pincer Staff wouldn't do much damage to undead (which I assume would be the Kuo Toa's enemies as well).


----------



## Jeremy

The CR adjustment is +2 which is just plain wrong for something protected by spell turning and haste at all times.  The ECL with that and the stat adjustments would be hideous.  I'd put it at ECL +8 at first glance, maybe as much as +12 because of the fast healing and natural armor and miscellaneous benefits.


----------



## Piratecat

The kuo toa are allied with the undead. 

I don't know when I'm wrapping up the game. Eight months ago, I said in a year!  So much for _that_ plan.   I guess we'll finish when (a) we're done, and (b) we're not having fun or finding it challenging. My guess? About a year from now, when Velendo and Tao hit 20th lvl and Nolin is 21st-22nd.  That's probably about right.  

As you'll see, the crap is about to hit the fan, and there are going to be a lot of loose ends floating around.


----------



## Kaodi

*Alliance?*

OK... but PirateCat, why are the  Kuo-Toa and Ghouls allied? Why aren't the Kuo-Toa cheesed about this latest invader?


----------



## the Jester

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *The kuo toa are allied with the undead.
> 
> I don't know when I'm wrapping up the game. Eight months ago, I said in a year!  So much for that plan.   I guess we'll finish when (a) we're done, and (b) we're not having fun or finding it challenging. My guess? About a year from now, when Velendo and Tao hit 20th lvl and Nolin is 21st-22nd.  That's probably about right.
> 
> As you'll see, the crap is about to hit the fan, and there are going to be a lot of loose ends floating around.   *




I hope you keep having fun with the Defenders for EVAR!  They're great, and an epic-level game that actually starts from first level would be super sweet and much more 'realistic' in terms of character developement and such than all the epic games I've seen (which generally start at epic levels and let you buy up all the stuff you need to totally optimize; that's not very likely how a character played from first level would be!)

So who hit 20th level already, just Nolin?


----------



## Nail

*Re: Alliance?*



			
				Kaodi said:
			
		

> *OK... but PirateCat, why are the  Kuo-Toa and Ghouls allied? Why aren't the Kuo-Toa cheesed about this latest invader? *



A great question.

One easily guessed at, if you peer into the twisted mind that is PirateCat.


----------



## Capellan

*Re: Alliance?*



			
				Kaodi said:
			
		

> *OK... but PirateCat, why are the  Kuo-Toa and Ghouls allied? Why aren't the Kuo-Toa cheesed about this latest invader? *




I'm guessing, but the two reasons that spring to mind for me are:

1.  Kuo-toa are immune to paralysis, which makes them tough customers for the ghouls (in fact, in the original Dungeon adventure, they are your most potent - hit die for hit die - allies)

2.  Kuo-toa are amphibious.  They've quite possibly done a deal with the ghouls: the undead get the dry bits, the Kuo-toa get the wet bits.

Piratecat may have other reasons, as well, of course.


----------



## Eridanis

Here's an idea for general consumption, rather than for anything specifically in PC's game right now. Call it the Sargasso Creek.

Imagine a small river of water originating on some far-off mountaintop. When the water is flowing, it's perfectly normal, potable water. When the water is stagnant - either in an amount from a gallon or so (more than a potion flask-full), up to a small pond, or frozen as ice - it has the additional magical property of generating an _antimagic_ effect as a 20th level caster. Those few who know the secret property of the water use it to fill moats, or in northern climes, build a layer of ice onto their fortresses. If the creek meanders through the Underdark, or through a rural area, the inhibitants might not even know its quality, but adults who have drank the water all their lives might possess minor SR, or a small bonus to saves from the water in their bodies.


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot

If you don't mind me asking PC, what did you use for the stats (if any) for that demigod? of disease that the defenders met in Eversink, he was originally disguised as a halfling.  (I remember him giving one of them a disease to weaken their bones, and then speeding up the process rapidly)


----------



## the Jester

Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> *If you don't mind me asking PC, what did you use for the stats (if any) for that demigod? of disease that the defenders met in Eversink, he was originally disguised as a halfling.  (I remember him giving one of them a disease to weaken their bones, and then speeding up the process rapidly) *




Er... did I miss this?  Is it somewhere in the SH?  Or did I just stoner it off and forget it??


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot

It was when the Defenders were in this Temple of Healing that was used as a front for the plaguebringers (?) or some other cult, there was a prophecy there where Malachite would lose his powers made by a woman who spoke to flies...if that helps jog your memory.


----------



## MavrickWeirdo

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Regarding today's story hour:
> 
> Recipe for a Coin Golem
> 
> Take one iron golem. Remove appearance, keeping its stats and setting aside. Replace iron with coins. Replace poison gas breath weapon with a breath weapon of sharpened coins that does 10d6 damage (DC same as iron golem's), plus 1d4 wounding per round thereafter if save is failed. Add fast healing 5 if coin golem is standing on loose coins. Add secret vulnerability to be mentioned later.
> 
> Stir well, and bake in a flame strike at 700 degrees for one round.
> 
> Seriously, this is the easy path to cool monsters!  Shuck off something else's appearance, change a few abilities (within a theme) to keep the experienced players guessing, and you're good to go.   *




Now that we know the "Secret Vulnerability", Do gold coins do more damage than copper?


----------



## Piratecat

MavrickWeirdo said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Now that we know the "Secret Vulnerability", Do gold coins do more damage than copper? *




Sure! Virtually every trap in the vault was designed to be harmless to dwarves, or at least dwarves who knew its secret. I figured 1 hp per gp, maybe 15 gp hit it per handful... enough that a couple of dwarves scooping coins at one could drop it very quickly (not that they would attack dwarves.)  copper would do 1/100 of the damage of a gp.  

As for Yuute, the avatar-thing of Yorrine, God of Disease (about page 50 of the first collected story hour), I never had stats for him. I was sure that they could never kill him, so stats weren't really necessary. Then Velendo hits him with his Talisman of Pure Good - which I forgot he had, thank-you-very-much - and boom! Exit one evil demigodling, stage left.  And good for them, too; it was an excellent way to solve the problem.


----------



## the Jester

Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> *It was when the Defenders were in this Temple of Healing that was used as a front for the plaguebringers (?) or some other cult, there was a prophecy there where Malachite would lose his powers made by a woman who spoke to flies...if that helps jog your memory. *




Oh, that was around the time they turned him into a tapeworm, right?


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot

Yep, that was the time (the Defenders prolly made history with the first parasite paladin )

Oh well (on Yuute) not quite the thing I was hoping to hear but I guess statting divine representatives like that isn't exactly easy


----------



## RingXero

hey PC, I liked the coin golems, but do have a question, did you consider applying an elemental template(or 1/2 elemental) to the golems as well, based on what type of damage that was done to create it?

too powerfull?

oh, also have a monster idea that I used from years ago that may or may not be useful, it's not undead, but shadow based.

Basically it could be recreated by taking a Scalamagdrion and applying the arachnid and shadow templates. Breath weapon was level draining sticky goop(1 level per round, but had to be neutralized/scraped away or would continue to drain levels).  I had them as being rather intelligent when younger (medium sized) but as they grew older and larger(Huge+), they lost more of their mental faculties, basically becoming large siege type creatures.  Nasty 'always on' spell turning, decent damage/HD, pack/hive mentality, shadow type abilities, flying and spider climb(including nifty 'rollover stick to ceiling manuver' for small/medium)

it was one nasty critter type.  Don't know how it looks in 3e yet, could convert/remake to 3e and stat one up if you wish.


RX


----------



## Piratecat

Mmmm. RX, I'd love to see it.  And nice idea regarding the elemental damage for the coin golems.


----------



## Kaodi

*Ol' Frog*

Gah... I said I would post a Kuo-Toa of Legend, didn't I? Well, after waiting a little too long I lost my enthusiam for the idea. Too, I'm not sure the pretext was very good if the Kuo-Toa have sided with the ghouls. I can still do one, but first I need to think of a new concept.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman

Here's a simple idea that is quite nasty.

_Chain Spell_ metamagic feat mixed with _Polymorph Other_. How many DoD can be turned into frogs in one round?


----------



## Kaodi

*Giant Frogman, Anyone?*

I just thought of this, and it will probably sound REALLY farfetched. It was inspired by creatures like the Savant Behemoth and his fellow giants. 

How about a huge kuo-toa? Who knows why he exists, story is your field (just as a strange  side not, when I first typed field it came  out fiend... the first word is probably more  appropriate ). I digress. As I was thinking, how about a  huge kuo-toa ranger/fighter? 9 HD, 5 Rgr/4 Ftr, other than that, just a normal kuo-toa with abilities adjusted for supernatural size. That would but  him in the CR 21-22 range, would it not? This is about the best thing I can come up with  right now. It's kind of sad that this is the best I could do, but I don't have many of the D&D books, and I doubt the Defenders of Daybreak ever conceived of that they would be going head to head with a massive fighting machine, wielding super-powerful magic (this is j ust an idea so far, but I was thinking of a magical gargantuan pincer staff, and a giant ring that must be worn to unlock its full powers for starters, and maybe some similarly veined items). Just a thought.

How silly of me, I had to edit this post. I forgot to mention  the small horde of fanatical whips hurling lightning blasts every which way.


----------



## Samnell

Is it my imagination or does the Ivory King sound a lot like an Atropal?


----------



## Piratecat

Samnell said:
			
		

> *Is it my imagination or does the Ivory King sound a lot like an Atropal? *




The thing from the epic level handbook?  Sagiro has said the same thing. He's not, though. I have something different planned. 

Kaodi, don't worry about the kuo toa! I'll stat him up myself. No worries.    Thank you again so much for the idea of the earth wierd. She worked beautifully.

I'm changing the name of Akin's Seep to Akin's Throat, just because (a) I'll place in inside a tube of volcanic rock, like a long throat, and (b) I like the name better than Seep. Maybe we'll finally get there tomorrow night, three sessions after I thought we would!

Actual statement from Velendo's and Mara's players:

"We were thinking about the game this Thursday. Instead of proceeding, we figured that we'd sit around in the vault and discuss the prophecies for a good long while, then cast a couple of _communes_. We're not going to discuss the commune questions until we're actually at the game, though, so everyone can participate. Is that okay?"

Sigh. Another adventure, wasted by procrastinating players.


----------



## Samnell

Damn. And here I thought I was being perceptive and clever. I should know better.


----------



## JacktheRabbit

I think I know what the problem is.

The party has not been recently reinforced with the fact that the longer they take to deal with the Ghouls the more innocents die under their tooth and claw.

So right now they feel like they can do whatever they want at any pace and not care. 

Maybe you should light a fire under their ass. If they wait too much longer then the Ghouls go on the offensive and mail a massive sucessful assault on the Deep Gnome city that they thought was safe.

That will teach them to treat this quest like a slow Sunday drive through the neighborhood.




			
				Piratecat said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Actual statement from Velendo's and Mara's players:
> 
> "We were thinking about the game this Thursday. Instead of proceeding, we figured that we'd sit around in the vault and discuss the prophecies for a good long while, then cast a couple of communes. We're not going to discuss the commune questions until we're actually at the game, though, so everyone can participate. Is that okay?"
> 
> Sigh. Another adventure, wasted by procrastinating players.   *


----------



## Piratecat

Not to worry, they were joking at the time, deliberately yanking my chain just to watch my eyes bulge.   

But the clock is running; I have a time table, and things will happen whether or not the Defenders are there. Ought to make things interesting.


----------



## Wippit Guud

Just for a littl freak-out factor...

Have them walk into a room full of upright pikes, with innocents impaled on each one... and a lot of them still alive. The ones at the beginning would be writhing in pain, they'd all be dead by the time they get to the middle... and then when the party gets to the last row, they suddenly start attacking.

Ghoul Hachery


----------



## blargney

*Fun from the past!*



> Their fight with their old enemy (a former antipaladin of the God of Murder, now a death knight after the PCs had him arrested and beheaded several years back)went fairly well.  When all was said and done, they had slain the body and flame-struck the still animate head. If they're lucky, that will have been sufficient to slay it.




Did you say you were resurrecting undead? *wink*

-blarg!


----------



## Piratecat

Oh. My. God.  That would be bad. Evil. Mean.

But they DO have certain divination spells at their disposal, such as legend lore... is it TOO unlikely?  Possibly. I'll have to give it some thought.


----------



## blargney

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Oh. My. God.  That would be bad. Evil. Mean.*




Right!  Where exactly is the problem? 



> *But they DO have certain divination spells at their disposal, such as legend lore... is it TOO unlikely?  Possibly. I'll have to give it some thought. *




First Legend Lore: Destroyed undead enemies of the Defenders of Daybreak.
(To be enlisted with resurrection thingy...)

Second Legend Lore: Dead enemies of the Defenders of Daybreak.
(To be found, raised, undeadified and enlisted...)

Gotta get 'em all!
-blarg


----------



## Bronz Dragon

Wippit Guud said:
			
		

> *Just for a littl freak-out factor...
> 
> Have them walk into a room full of upright pikes, with innocents impaled on each one... and a lot of them still alive. The ones at the beginning would be writhing in pain, they'd all be dead by the time they get to the middle... and then when the party gets to the last row, they suddenly start attacking.
> 
> Ghoul Hachery  *




For added effect, have a narsty little ghoulish mind-flayer wandering around the chamber..  A kind of caretaker taking a bite here, a nibble there, but more horrific, he reaches into the minds of the poor afflicted innocents, relishing their terrified memories of the ghouls' attack on their little village. 

_ They see their entire family torn up and devoured with hungry abandon, gore splattering and entrails flying as the frenzying undead sate themselves.  Then when they are no longer hungry, they hear the whimpering from beneath the baseboards, haul the victim from their hiding place and hurl them down a twisting turning tunnel faster and faster, then sending them plunging into a void..  filled with spikes reaching up like greedy claws for them.  Then hours of suffering as they slowly slide down the hideously barbed stalagmites, watching the hoary death-wizard working his way toward them with languorous cruelty, and then...  _

At this point the Defenders should somehow gain the mind-flayer's attention, and he'll send this gobbet of memory lancing directly into some sensitive individual's brain via a _Mind Blast_, torturing them psychically during the stunning period.

Neat little flavour nugget, and a cool way to insinuate a mind-flayer into your game, everybody LOVES mindflayers!

EDIT -- cool idea inserted


----------



## Capellan

Bronz Dragon said:
			
		

> *At this point the Defenders should somehow gain the necromancers attention, and he'll send this gobbet of memory lancing directly into some sensitive individual's brain, torturing them psychically until he is slain.
> 
> Neat little flavour nugget, and a cool way to take a player out of combat.  Dunno what kind of spell you'd use, though. *




Use psionics for it, instead of a spell.  _Mind Blast_ would be very appropriate - treat the period of being stunned as when the PC is helplessly stuck in the memory, unable to act from fear and revulsion.


----------



## Wippit Guud

BTW, just to give credit, impaled people 'visual' courtesy of my PBEM Ravenloft game... horror checks are fun things, really


----------



## Bronz Dragon

Capellan said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Use psionics for it, instead of a spell.  Mind Blast would be very appropriate - treat the period of being stunned as when the PC is helplessly stuck in the memory, unable to act from fear and revulsion. *



Hey yeah!  duh, me...

Okay, editted it.  My apologies to the Defenders


----------



## maddman75

Here's another one, now that the Ghoul Master is paticularly upset with the Defenders.

Legend Lore - Dead *friends* of the defenders, whose corpses would be recovered and "recruited."


----------



## DoctorB

I love the idea of bringing back dead enemies of the DoD and even better, dead friends... 
The only problem is the time factor.  Did the ghoul leaders know what a pain in the rotting rear-end these guys would be?  If so, some could have happened ahead of time.  Otherwise, it will take time to find the corpses and raise them.

Another idea, BTW.  Toward the end of this, you could go for the false ending.  Have the ghoul godling create a duplicate of itself that it allows to be killed.  Then, as the triumphant Defenders are returning to the surface, hit them with everything they have fought up to then at once.


----------



## Bronz Dragon

Why stop with just friends?

Anyone whom the Defenders have had contact with could be a target.  Halfway through the battle, they start seeing faces which are vaguely familiar, then creepily so, then people they knew well.  Past lovers of Nolin's might be particularly poignant for him..  or not, come to think of it.


----------



## JacktheRabbit

Ok this is the secret tell all thread.  So spill the beans.

Why ARE the Modrons marching? 

If you tell I promise to be nice to all Paladins for the rest of the month.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *Why ARE the Modrons marching? *




If you tell, I promise to...um...do something very out of character!


----------



## Mathew_Freeman

Putting in a request to find out exactly what those creatures are from your latest update, please!

If not now, at least when the DoD have finished the fight...go on, please...*please*...


----------



## Piratecat

The golem-things are our very own Gidien's soul Stitched. They were great fun!  Thanks again, Gidien; they'll see more use as well.


As for the others, please meet the happy couple...

*Klobros & Thulzik*, true ghoul Beholders

Large Undead Aberration
Hit Dice: 21d12 +25 temp hp (161 hp)
Initiative: +6 (Dex +2, Improved Initiative)
Speed: 5 ft., fly 20 ft. (clumsy)
AC: 24 (-2 size, +16 natural)
Attacks: Eye rays +12 ranged touch, bite +16/+11/+6 melee
Damage: Bite 2d8+6
Face/Reach: 10 ft. by 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Eye rays, paralysis DC 25, grave rot, 1 pt strength damage

Special Qualities: All-around vision, antimagic cone, fly, resistant to blows, turn resistance +4, summon 1d3 shadows

Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +15
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 19, Cha 21
Skills: Hide +13, Knowledge (arcana) +10, Listen +18, Move silently +6, Search +18, Spot +24

Feats: Alertness, Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Shot on the Run
Challenge Rating: 18
Treasure: Double standard
Alignment: Usually lawful evil

*Combat*

Eye Rays (Su): Each of the ten small eyes can produce a magical ray once a round, even when the beholder is attacking physically or moving at full speed. The creature can easily aim all its eyes upward, but its own body tends to get in the way when it tries to aim the rays in other directions. During a round, the creature can aim only three eye rays at targets in any one arc other than up (forward, backward, left, right, or down). The remaining eyes must aim at targets in other arcs or not at all. A beholder can tilt and pan its body each round to change which rays it can bring to bear in an arc. Each eye’s effect resembles a spell cast by a 17th-level sorcerer but follows the rules for a ray. All rays have a range of 150 feet and a save DC of 25.

•  Enervation: Fort save half, 1d4 negative levels

•  Vampiric Touch: Fort save half, 10d6 damage, beholder gets temp hit points (max +10) 

•  Sleep: This works like the spell, except that it affects one creature with any number of Hit Dice. The target must succeed at a Will save to resist. Beholders like to use this ray against warriors and other physically powerful creatures. 

•  Flesh to Stone: The target must succeed at a Fortitude save or be affected as though by the spell. Beholders like to aim this ray at enemy spellcasters. 

•  Disintegrate: The target must succeed at a Fortitude save or be affected as though by the spell. 

•  Fear: This works like the spell, except that it targets one creature. The target must succeed at a Will save or be affected as though by the spell. Beholders like to use this ray against warriors early in a fight. 

•  Polymorph Other: This works like the spell.  The target must make a fortitude save to resist. Beholders often use this ray to neutralize enemies it might want to torture, turning them into cat-sized snails. 

•  Inflict Critical Wounds: This works just like the spell, causing 4d8+20 points of damage (Will half). 

•  Finger of Death: The target must succeed at a Fortitude save or be slain as though by the spell. The target suffers 3d6+13 damage if his saving throw succeeds. Beholders use this ray to eliminate dangerous foes quickly. 

•  Telekinesis: The beholder can move objects or creatures that weigh up to 325 pounds, as though with a telekinesis spell. Creatures can resist the effect with a successful Will save. 

All-Around Vision (Ex): Beholders are exceptionally alert and circumspect. Their many eyes give them a +4 racial bonus to Spot and Search checks, and they can’t be flanked. 

Antimagic Cone (Su): A beholder’s central eye continually produces a 210-foot antimagic cone extending straight ahead from the creature’s front. This functions just like antimagic field cast by a 17th-level sorcerer. All magical and supernatural powers and effects within the cone are suppressed-even the beholder’s own eye rays. Once each round, during its turn, the beholder decides which way it will face, and whether the antimagic cone is active or not. A beholder can bite only creatures to its front.

Flight (Ex): A beholder’s body is naturally buoyant. This buoyancy allows it to fly as the spell, as a free action, at a speed of 20 feet. This buoyancy also grants it a permanent feather fall effect with personal range.


----------



## Skaros

So....since the beholders are undead, and can use all of their eyes every round (with the limitation that there must be targets in that direction)......

That means the beholder should be able to aim a ray of "cause critical wounds" on itself every round and heal itself for that amount, every round.

Did they?

Addendum: the other option, of course, is to say the stalks can't twist around enough to aim at the beholder itself....

-Skaros


----------



## Caliber

The really nasty thing in this combat will likely be the Spellstiched.

They get a 10d6 Negative Energy Burst. Thats a 10d6 HEAL for all of the Undead involved as well as 10d6 Non-Elemental Damage for all the living guys (you know, those Defender chaps)

Nasty.


----------



## Kaodi

*The Grim Parody*

Since you are in the business of torturing Sagiro with his own demented ideas, and you are brining back old enemies, friends and casual playmates (*smirk*), why don't you go for a ghoulish party of the Defenders of Daybreak? The Grim Parody. I think you could make that into an extremely disturbing encounter, a look at what they might become should they fail, (*cackle*).

I just had the familiar feeling of dread that I have somehow infringed on the past idea of someonw else (and I don't mean Sagiro, I am crediting him). I think the feeling is just more of a shadow of self-doubt thing, but if I have just repeated someone else, I apologize.


----------



## Elemental

Skaros said:
			
		

> *So....since the beholders are undead, and can use all of their eyes every round (with the limitation that there must be targets in that direction)......
> 
> That means the beholder should be able to aim a ray of "cause critical wounds" on itself every round and heal itself for that amount, every round.
> 
> Did they?
> 
> Addendum: the other option, of course, is to say the stalks can't twist around enough to aim at the beholder itself....
> 
> -Skaros *




But in that case, the beholders could just keep zapping each other with their eyes.


----------



## Skaros

Elemental said:
			
		

> *
> 
> But in that case, the beholders could just keep zapping each other with their eyes. *




Very true.  We'll have to see how the defenders overcame all the healing ability....between the cure criticals, and the spell-stitcheds' area effect negative energy burst stuff.

I can't wait.

-Skaros


----------



## blargney

Hello Piratecat, just a couple of questions:

First, whatever happened to the Skaven village that T'Cri came from?  (Let alone T'Cri himself..)

Second, this is from a letter Nolin wrote to himself while studying with Hagiok: 



> *The White Kingdom was apparently created by mistake when seven worshippers of the Goddess Imbindarla fled the Aeotian/Erisian purge. They went underground through the Axerift to our south, seeking some fabled lost oracle to their goddess. I read in an unnamed scroll that it was someone 'cloaked in endless night, and breathing of death, speaking the truth that lies beyond flesh' (Try to find the diary of Delvin Choss, their guide through the Axerift. This was excerpted from it, but it apparently disappeared with him into the underdark. It looks like he wrote down all sorts of juicy stuff.) Whatever happened to them, it couldn't have been good, because supposedly whatever they learned killed them.*





The oracle sounds like fun... have they met it yet?  How about Delvin Choss and his diary?

-blarging up bits of the past!


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> I'm changing the name of Akin's Seep to Akin's Throat, just because (a) I'll place in inside a tube of volcanic rock, like a long throat, and (b) I like the name better than Seep. Maybe we'll finally get there tomorrow night, three sessions after I thought we would!
> *




Cool!


----------



## blargney

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *I'm changing the name of Akin's Seep to Akin's Throat, just because (a) I'll place in inside a tube of volcanic rock, like a long throat [...]*




Volcanoes smoke.. did you have to install a trach ring?  
-blarg


----------



## Nasma

The following is just a random idea I had to keep the defenders on their toes.  My apologies if it has already been suggested, already been done, or has some obvious flaw that I have missed.

Have a relatively easy group attack the party just before they leave for the comfortable castle, or whatever its exact name is.  When the attackers are all dead the regular looting reveals that the leader has a magical sword.  This sword is high enough in magical power to be kept, but not powerful enough to arouse suspicion, maybe +3.  All in all exactly what the leader of the attackers would be expected to be carrying.

What the defenders don't realise is that the sword is actually a high level wizard who has shapechanged into this and has had nystal's undetectable aura or similar cast silently and stillly (?) on him to complete the illusion.  When, hopefully, he is taken into the castle, and into the wall that the party uses to stop attackers getting in, he drops himself off the dwarf, or whoever, that is carrying him and casts a silent, stilled improved invisibility so that he will not be found when the shapechange's duration wears out.  He then waits for the group to go to sleep, secure in the knowledge that nothing can attack them in their safe haven.

The method that he uses to attack the party could be anything, from a few symbols of hopelessness carefully carved around the place to something as simple as a meteor storm along with a few fireballs, thus taking advantage of the fact that the entire group is stuck in such a small area.  Or perhaps a symbol of sleep, just in case anyone wakes up and then a few delayed blast fireballs.  The wizard could even planeshift out before the mayhem begins, leaving the party to nurse their wounds and fight off a few summoned creatures.

Their would be quite a few oppurtunities for the plan to fail of course, from the person identifing the sword succeeding in his, undoubtably hard, will save, to the dwarf searching everywhere for his lost weapon, though I suppose that could be fixed with an illusiory sword taking the wizard's place.

Again, please point out the flaws in this plan that I have missed, or suggest any ways in which it could be improved.


----------



## Dawn

*Re: The Grim Parody*



			
				Kaodi said:
			
		

> *Since you are in the business of torturing Sagiro with his own demented ideas, and you are brining back old enemies, friends and casual playmates (*smirk*), why don't you go for a ghoulish party of the Defenders of Daybreak? The Grim Parody. I think you could make that into an extremely disturbing encounter, a look at what they might become should they fail, (*cackle*).
> 
> I just had the familiar feeling of dread that I have somehow infringed on the past idea of someonw else (and I don't mean Sagiro, I am crediting him). I think the feeling is just more of a shadow of self-doubt thing, but if I have just repeated someone else, I apologize. *




I believe it was contact that did that in his Liberators story hour.  Someone/something was raising the dead members of the party and using them against the living members.  I, too, could have the name wrong.

Made for an interesting encounter though!


----------



## Spatzimaus

> _Originally posted by Nasma _*Again, please point out the flaws in this plan that I have missed, or suggest any ways in which it could be improved. *




It's a neat idea.

But:

> True Seeing?  Maybe it's just coincidence, but all the times I can think of where they ran into a polymorphed enemy (that last dragon, for example) they already had it up.  So, while your guy is shapechanged into a loot item, they might already know, and stick him in a Bag of Holding... where he runs out of air when changing back.

> Identification.  It's not very easy to figure out what an item does.  Personally, no matter how desperate I am for a new item, I wouldn't use an item until after I checked it out.

Which leads to:
> Bags of Holding.  They're far more likely to just stick it in a bag until they have time to identify it right.  Can you get out of that bag?  More importantly, if you're carrying your own Bag of Holding, putting one inside the other still has bad effects, right?  Even if you don't, wouldn't you suffocate when it wore off?

> But, if you want to try it, use a Psion.  They have a level 5 power, Metamorphosis that acts like Polymorph Self plus allows inanimate objects.  Much easier than waiting for level 9 spells.

> Or, instead of assuming the Defenders WILL pick up an item and not get suspicious, just polymorph into an insect, hide in the shadows and hitch a ride on one of them at the end of a long day.  They probably won't have all their spells up if you do it when they're NOT fighting.

> The fundamental logical flaw here, though, is that some high-level wizard wants to go on a suicide mission, on the off chance that they won't check before going in the door AND that they won't defeat him anyway.

Now, what you COULD do is, cover an area with some spell blocking Divinations.  Get a bunch of Psions and Psychic Warriors.  Polymorph Self into inconspicuous animals.  Rats, bugs, whatever.  The Psions with Metamorphosis could turn into rocks.  Awfully good ambush setup... hmm, this is starting to sound less like a Ghoul tactic and more like an evil albino cannibal psionic halfling tactic.


----------



## JacktheRabbit

I see a couple small problems.

1. Make sure the Paladins cannot detect any evil.

2. Odds are the sword/wizard will find himself being stored in a closed portable hole or bag of holding.  How will the wizard get out?

Also it would be unfair to plan the attack using the meta-knowledge of how the Defenders have their portable home arranged. 





			
				Nasma said:
			
		

> *The following is just a random idea I had to keep the defenders on their toes.  My apologies if it has already been suggested, already been done, or has some obvious flaw that I have missed.
> 
> Have a relatively easy group attack the party just before they leave for the comfortable castle, or whatever its exact name is.  When the attackers are all dead the regular looting reveals that the leader has a magical sword.  This sword is high enough in magical power to be kept, but not powerful enough to arouse suspicion, maybe +3.  All in all exactly what the leader of the attackers would be expected to be carrying.
> 
> What the defenders don't realise is that the sword is actually a high level wizard who has shapechanged into this and has had nystal's undetectable aura or similar cast silently and stillly (?) on him to complete the illusion.  When, hopefully, he is taken into the castle, and into the wall that the party uses to stop attackers getting in, he drops himself off the dwarf, or whoever, that is carrying him and casts a silent, stilled improved invisibility so that he will not be found when the shapechange's duration wears out.  He then waits for the group to go to sleep, secure in the knowledge that nothing can attack them in their safe haven.
> 
> The method that he uses to attack the party could be anything, from a few symbols of hopelessness carefully carved around the place to something as simple as a meteor storm along with a few fireballs, thus taking advantage of the fact that the entire group is stuck in such a small area.  Or perhaps a symbol of sleep, just in case anyone wakes up and then a few delayed blast fireballs.  The wizard could even planeshift out before the mayhem begins, leaving the party to nurse their wounds and fight off a few summoned creatures.
> 
> Their would be quite a few oppurtunities for the plan to fail of course, from the person identifing the sword succeeding in his, undoubtably hard, will save, to the dwarf searching everywhere for his lost weapon, though I suppose that could be fixed with an illusiory sword taking the wizard's place.
> 
> Again, please point out the flaws in this plan that I have missed, or suggest any ways in which it could be improved. *


----------



## Capellan

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *Also it would be unfair to plan the attack using the meta-knowledge of how the Defenders have their portable home arranged.
> *




I don't think this is an issue, actually - the ghouls have attacked them inside the castle already, so they obviously have some idea of the layout.

Of course, I think that's the biggest weakness of this strategy, from a gaming POV - the ghouls have already struck at the Defenders in their own stronghold, so the impact would be weakened.

Now, if the Ghouls were to start attacking the Defenders' friends and loved ones - _that_ would be a new and interesting way to annoy them.  Even the threat should be enough to put the Defenders' off-balance ... "It would be such a shame to have to hurt the charming boy who keeps scrying our battles ..."


----------



## JacktheRabbit

Since then the Defenders have switched things around and block everything within a Sovereign Wall. This pretty well kills any sort of divination.

Of course the Ghouls can always use Commune. There is no real way to block Deity sources for info.





			
				Capellan said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I don't think this is an issue, actually - the ghouls have attacked them inside the castle already, so they obviously have some idea of the layout.
> 
> Of course, I think that's the biggest weakness of this strategy, from a gaming POV - the ghouls have already struck at the Defenders in their own stronghold, so the impact would be weakened.
> 
> Now, if the Ghouls were to start attacking the Defenders' friends and loved ones - that would be a new and interesting way to annoy them.  Even the threat should be enough to put the Defenders' off-balance ... "It would be such a shame to have to hurt the charming boy who keeps scrying our battles ..." *


----------



## the Jester

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *Since then the Defenders have switched things around and block everything within a Sovereign Wall. This pretty well kills any sort of divination.
> 
> Of course the Ghouls can always use Commune. There is no real way to block Deity sources for info.
> 
> *




Don't forget the pesky divination sink....


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

*Fauna of the Underdark*

Visual image jammed in head. Must dump it someplace.

How about here?

'Scuse if these creatures have been statted up somewhere already. Far as I know, I'm spinnning this off the top of my noggin.

Party walking thorugh pitch black underdark. Or, well, it would be, if the party weren't here with their C-lights and glowing swords and torches etc etc.

Entering a vast space--too big for a typical party's torches to completely illuminate. Perhaps a narrow causeway across a vast chasm.

And there, in the darkness above and below, and all around: floating lights, blue and green and purple--shimmering outlines of transparent shapes rising and falling, pulsing and swaying.

Ranging from golf ball to beach umbrella in size: Cave Jellies.

Mindlessly floating in an endless, bioluminescent dance, the cave jellies use thier long filments to sweep mold spores from the air. Their filments are ever so slightly electrical, drawing the particles in magnetically.

Metals exposed to the jellies for a while will also become magnetized, and the weak antigravity or levitatation magic they use to drift is not well contained--other light objects in the area may be picked up and tossed around like so many motes of dust, or glitter swirling slowly in a snowglobe. The brush of a filament across skin is tingling, and vaguely unpleasant, but not especially painful. Static electricity might cause party members’ hair to float or stand on end.

The Jellies recoil from lights--perhaps their luminescense helps them to avoid bumping in to each other or grazing each other's airspace. Exposure to bright sunlight shrivels them up to nothingness in seconds. 

They have no heat signature. Perhaps a faint smell of ozone. 

I can't think what good this is in an adventure as yet--perhaps a setting for some more exciting encounter with something else--perhaps a predator that eats Cave Jellies. Maybe they're a drow delicacy. Maybe their bioluminescent bodies are useful for something that another race needs . .  . 

sadly, the Defenders would probably never see them as they went by all lit up like Chistmas trees . . . a glance of receeding glowing--"they're frightened of lights? good, let's make more. "

can't think of a use for it . . . ought to be a use for it . . .

OH!  WAIT!  THEY EAT MOLD SPORES!!!

If you chase them away, how long does it take the "mold" in the area to become toxic to travellers? Jellies wouldn’t congregate in this cavern unless there was a good source of food nearby.

How long is that causeway  . . . . .?


----------



## WizarDru

PC, pardon me while I shamelessly tap the group mind.  I've already borrowed several ideas from this thread, but am looking for some more specific ideas for my game, this Friday night.

You can read (and post) about it in this thread over here. 

I'm mostly looking for ideas, but if you have some nasties statted out, that's nice, too.  I'm looking for ways to make this siege more interesting, and based on what I've seen, there are plenty of folks about who have something to offer.

It should go without saying that any of my players reading this should NOT BE AVOIDING THE DISCUSSION.

Much Thanks!


----------



## Ashy

Akin - I thought you were gonna email me, blood!    Waitng on it!


----------



## RingXero

sorry, I was away for abit.  What follows is a rough layout of a monster race called the Xizxx.  Rough, as I haven't statted them up in 3e yet, so their may be some errors.  Basically one of two races created by a demented demi-lich(ahem, me) in my old campaign.  This one a mix of the Shadow Dragon and Scalamagdrion, and the Arachnoid and Shadow templates.  They start off tiny, gain abilities till large in size, then lose intelligence as they get larger, by gargantuan in size they are just mindless constantly raging creatures.  I have done a 'large' one below.  will follow up with a small and gargantuan size later, if you want.
oh, at this size they hunt in packs, usually in threes.

Xizxx

Shadow Dragon abomination spider thingy

Hit Dice: 18d12 +45 (171 hp)
Initiative: +4 (Dex)
Speed: 22ft., fly 60ft.(average), Climb 15ft.
AC: 33 (-1 size, +4 Dex, +20 natural)
Attacks: Bite +23 melee, 8 Claws +21 melee,  Tail sting +21
Damage: Bite 2d6 +4 +poison, Claw 1d8 +2, Tail sting 1d6 +2 +poison
Face/Reach: 5ft. by 10ft. /10ft.
Special Attacks: Rend 2d8 +6

Special Qualities: Immune to Cold and Fire, Immune to mind influencing effects, Spell turning, Silence 15' radii.

Saves:  Fort +10, Ref +11, Will +8
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 9
Skills:  Climb +30, Knowledge (arcana) +10, Listen +17, Move Silently +26, Spot +23, Jump +26, Hide +24

Feats:  Flyby Attack, Combat Reflexes, Multiattack, Hover, Wingover
CR: ??
Treasure: none
Alignment: Chaotic Evil

Combat

A Xizxx can only attack with all eight claws while flying/hovering, if on the ground they are limited to six claw attacks, if climbing they are limited to four.

Breath Weapon (Su): A cone (40ft) of both level draining shadows and poisonous mist.  Lvl drain of 1d3 lvls DC (24), Poison if 1d3 Str (initial and secondary) DC (26). 

Evasion (Su):  

Planeshift (Su): Can Planeshift to or from the Plane of Shadows twice per day.

Mirror Image (Su): Once per day can generate images as per the Mirror Image spell of the same name.  (1d4 +6 images)

Rend (Ex): If a Xizxx hits with two claw attacks, it latches on and tears the flesh automatically dealing an additional 2d8+6 damage.

Poison (Ex):  The bite and tail infict a debilitating posion.  1d6 str initial and secondary, DC (26)

Spell Turning (Su):  This ability continuously duplicates the effects of the spell of the same name, with the Xizxx as the target.  Unlike the spell, the Xizxx spell turning ability has an unlimited ability to turn spells (the spell turning is never exhausted).

Silence:
Blindsight (Ex):
Low Light Vision
Darkvision (60)
Telepathic: Can communicate to other Xizxx within 200 yards.

oops, gotta run, will be back later to edit in the blanks.  It's basically all there. I think.


RX


----------



## Piratecat

I've got lots of catch up on!  But in the mean time, here's another one of my famous Excel maps, this one of the area around Akin's Throat. Watcha think?


----------



## WizarDru

How big is that sheet?  It's a cool use of Excel, but it's just INSANE.

I never would have even thought of using it that way.  Another tool in the belt.   Thanks.


----------



## Piratecat

It prints out to 8.5" x 11", on one sheet of paper, with no compression. Took me about an hour, maybe an hour and a half to do.  

I turned off grid lines, detached the Autoshapes->Lines toolbar, and did almost the whole thing using the "scribble" line tool. I increased or decreased point size for bigger or smaller tunnels, and changed the lines to dotted for smaller tunnels.  I used the freeform tool (on that same Lines toolbar) to make the rifts. Total piece of cake, and it doesn't look entirely suckariffic.  

I'll post my handdrawn map of Akin's Throat when I get it scanned.

Meanwhile, there are a lot of new kickass ideas here. *grin*  My group is going to hate you guys.


----------



## Knightfall

*Some cursed item ideas for P'Cat's campaign!*

Here are some nasty cursed items you might want to *mix* into your next treasure pile that the Defenders take an interest in.

Bracelet of Haunting - attracts ghosts and spectres.
Gem of False Fears - character develops intense phobias about things that have never frightened him/her before.
Gloves of Chaos - when entering combat, the character is forced to attack a random opponent, whether friend or foe.
Shield of the Blue Dragon - appears to be a +1 shield with the lightning resistance.  For every week a character possesses this cursed shield, roll 1d20.  If the roll is a 1, 2, 3 or 4 the shield's magic will attract a blue dragon of random age category.  A blue dragon must be within 1d10 miles +1 mile per week that a dragon wasn't attracted previously.

I am so evil.   

Cheer!

KF72


----------



## Kaodi

*Corroded Dragons & Statues*

Ah, here is another interesting idea (at least I hope it is interesting to you). 

As the Defenders of Daybreak are going up a bunch of undead, maybe you should send them some variations on monsters that are a sort of metallic form of undead. In short, Corroded Monsters.

For instance, say that in whatever city the ghouls occupy, there used to be a colossal spider statue (I know, we don't need more drow, but this is just an example). Instead of being just a normal animating statue under the control of the Puppeteer, or even just preprogramming, it would be describe as being corroded, and could have a bunch of abilities springing from that idea... say, nonmagical metal striking or struck by it instantly dissolves, its venom is powerful acid, and stuff in a similiar vein. The creatures would be immune (at least partially) to positive energy, keeping them still in theme. This idea could be applied to things like dragons too. Wouldn't a green bronze dragon just look *nasty*?
Hope you like this newest one.


----------



## Bronz Dragon

*Re: Corroded Dragons & Statues*



			
				Kaodi said:
			
		

> *Wouldn't a green bronze dragon just look *nasty*?*



Hey!  

Maybe make an undead dragon of a good alignment.  A bronze would look like a green, so everyone would put up anti-acid buff spells, then get nailed by lightning! teehee! 

on top of that, it keeps with one of PC's favorite tricks, namely that one where he mucks with appearances of monsters to make totally new ones and thwomp metagaming.


----------



## RingXero

hey there PC, always wanted to ask you, do you have the adventure/suplement 'City of the Spider Queen'.  It has some nice critters 'n templates that may be good for you.  (considering your once made statement that the white kingdom has some form of ties with demons.)
in case you don't have it, some names follow.

Abyssal Ghoul 
Demon, Blood Fiend (Vampiric form of demon)
Demon, Maurezhi (Tanar'ri) (corpse eating demon)
Drider Vampire
Orb Wraith (think nexus of wraiths)
Quth-Maren (skinless elves with acidic saliva)
Wraith Spider
Arachnoid (template)
Keening Spirit (template)
Revenant (template)
Silveraith (template)

-RX


----------



## Trip

I have not had a chance to read much past the second page of this yet, but felt a bit compelled to reply. A lot of great and evil idea's here! Back in the beginning there was a lot of talk about undead, so I figured I would add in a quick bit.

I recently ran adventure where the PC's were heading through some pretty big caves and had a run in with some cave trolls. This was more of a setup, as later on they learned that they were actually tracking down an annoying goblin shaman that was giving them a bit of grief.

The shaman was actually a necromancer in most cases, and was able to gather up a few trolls that died to more "natural" causes, rather than hacked into pieces, or flamed to death.
He "dissected" the trolls insides, actually creating a hollowed shell, the filled it with high amounts of oil and flasks of alchemists fire. Really a dangerous job. But in the end he had 3 of these fellows. Using a bit of magic he animated the corpses as simple zombies, and posted them along one tunnel, each of them along a small cliff a bit higher than the PC's. As the PC's happened by, the zombie trolls would leap from their purches down onto the PC's. Creating a rather large inferno of alchemists fire and oil.

Alternatively, in another campaign I used the same basic idea and had a human body that was filled with oil, tied to the cieiling in a crypt. The necromancer knew the cleric PC was highly against undead, and looked to end their suffering at every cost. So he loaded the human corpse up with oil & alchemist. fire. Then tied it to the cieling. When the PC's entered (through a small trapdoor in one corner) I mentioned the heavy smell of oil so they quickly doused the torches. The cleric, spotting the agonized human tied to the cieling quickly shot an arrow through it, hiting the alchemist fire, and setting the whole thing into a nice little explosion, with a big glob of flaming oil raining down. Imagine five people in a small 15' / 15' room, with fire raining down, and only a tiny trap door in one corner to escape from . . .


----------



## Piratecat

Cave jelly shadow dragon abomination spider thingy!

Wow, cool - and thank you for the mention of City of the Spider Queen. I'll go see.

Design brainstorming time!  The ghouls are using a ritual and ghoulomancy (tm) to create another big necromantic construct. They aren't done yet. I want something cool, something that will creep out the PCs even if it isn't completed - but I'm blanking on ideas. Can you please help?

Things to keep in mind:

 - it's deep underground, and should probably serve to transport undead or burrow holes for them through rock
 - I've recently "done" dragons, oozes, beetles, and worms.

Any ideas?


----------



## Samnell

How about an umber hulk collossus? Same general body plan as an umber hulk, maybe similar general powers, but freakin' huge and made of bodies. Only thing is it's kind the necropede's second coming.

Hmmm...Heads. Lots of heads. All kinds of heads. Together. They eat their way through the rock (or disintegrate or whatever) and they come in a hollow sphere shape so they double as an undead army carrying case. 

EDIT: Getting more into the head image...they could all be slavering and gibbering while they do it.

Maybe parts of heads to make up the giant head. The eyes are huge swarms of peering, lidless eyes swimming in glistening goo, all swiveling independently of each other...


----------



## DoctorB

How about giant ghoulish versions of one or more of the Defenders (Valendo?  Nolin [I have a great picture of the ghouls setting themselves on fire at the top to simulate the hair]?).  This could be presented by the Puppeteer as a way to show his respect for them.


----------



## Capellan

This may be a little "off the wall", but how about a giant fish?

Take one of the ugly critters from the pic below (it's an Angler Fish, for the record), blow it up to Gargantuan size, and give its spines/feelers the supernatural ability to turn solid rock to water (like an improved rock to mud).  Such a beast would be filled with scores of ghouls, ready to come pouring out as soon as the angler fish burst out of the rock and into an enemy-held cavern.  The ghouls would literally travel inside the fish, since it wouldn't have a digestive system, and would rush out of it's mouth and gills to attack.

The fish itself is visually disturbing (always a Good Thing), and its many spines would make it hard to hurt in melee without being injured yourself.

Plus, if the ghouls get it mobile, you have the fun of dumping the Defenders into an underwater battle.  They've surely got the magic to overcome that inconvenience, but it might put them off their game for a round or two.

The ghouls of course, don't need to breathe, so would be reasonably 'at home' underwater, though slowed.


----------



## Benben

*Addressing the trooptransport.*

Ghouls as an underdark race would benefit greatly by being incorpreal.  

They might be able to bypass this by using the abilities of a creature already able to pass through rock and stone.

If you allow outsiders to become ghouls then I would suggest using xorn.

True Ghoul Xorns would make great shocktroops.

True Ghoul Warbeast Xorns who swallow their riders and then pass through stone spitting their riders onto enemies would also work well.

A Titanic True Ghoul Warbeast Xorn would be an aircraft carrier level troop transport.  Able to ferry huge numbers of troops in its carved out innards and able to bypass the hindering aspects of underdark travel.


----------



## Kaodi

*Crazy Idea.*

I was thinking, if I were to take my earlier idea of having  a corroded construct, like a spider, make it whatever size will fit where the battle is going to take place, infuse it with a negative energon or whatever the equivalent of a negative energy elemental is, open up a gate to the negative energy plane in its belly which the troops can pour forth from its belly. It could spin negative energy webs that are strong and drain hit poits every round, and secrete venom that grows into goo undead which could possibly eat enemies from the inside out, and take over their bodies.

This may be a little overdone, and already done, and all that stuff... but I think at least the idea of a walking planar gate would be good.


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot

There's a thing called a Necromantic Golem in Creature Collection I, under the Carnival Crewe.

It's a huge (long) undead construct with 2 large arms, 4 small arms, and could easily be adapted with other abilities to make it truly fearsome (under its description, it mentions the version described is just an 'average' golem).  Furthermore, the example has compartments for 4 creatures, but I imagine if you increase its size to gargantuan or even colossal it'l have alot more room for several nasty surprises...

I agree that incorperability, for perhaps 1 hr. a day would be a good ability for the ghouls, and perhaps they might find use of other creatures (like a roper hidden in a compartment at the top, it can spring forth when needed with its 50 ft. reach )


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot

Kinda unimaginative, but I boosted the Necromantic Golem a bit from its original stats, although I'm not too good at monster creation.  I hope you like it.

Adapted Necromantic Golem
Gargantuan (Long) Undead Construct
HD 27d12 (175)
Initiative: -2
Speed: 120 ft.  Burrow 60 ft.
AC 24 (-4 size, +18 natural armor)
Attacks: 2 large arms +25 melee; 6 small arms +19
Damage: Large arms 2d10+12; small arms by weapon type +6
Face/Reach: 15 ft. by 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Banshee's Scream
Special Qualities: Hardness 10, Magic Immunity, Incorperability, Undead Construct
Saves: 
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 6, Con -, Int -, Wis 4, Cha -
Challenge Rating: 15

Compartments:  A Necromantic Golem has an inner storage compartment which can carry up to 16 small humanoids, 8 medium humanoids, or 4 large humanoids or any combination there of.  Furthermore, it has a storage compartment in its 'head' and it's 'chest' which can carry 2 medium creatures or 1 large creatures.  Usually a cleric of some sort remains protected within its chest compartment, healing the golem with inflict spells while it fights.  The compartment door of the Golem can be specifically targeted, its strength being that of a door made of stone, usually this is hard though as it is often arcane locked.

Banshee's Scream:  The Necromantic Golem's breath weapon, appropriately nicknamed the Banshee's Scream can be used once every 1d4+1 rounds, dealing 15d6 sonic damage in a 60 ft. cone.  This is usually used to collapse walls and other blockades in its way.
Magic Immunity:  The Necromantic Golem is immune to all spell-like and supernatural abilities except for the following; It is not immune to its own incorperability, it takes appropriate damage for cure spells and heals damage normally from inflict spells.
Incorperability:  For up to 1 hour per day, a Necromantic Golem and all its contents can go incorpereal (this hour need not be used continuously).

Edit-Undead Construct from Creature Collection 1 is basically a combination of both types, but its immune to the fear from turning, but not the destruction effect.

-Things I changed: from DR 5/+1 to Hardness 10, SR 8 to magical immunity of golem (and it used to be immune to cure/inflict spells too), increased size and stats, added 2 extra arms and more compartments, gave it banshee's scream, incorperability, and extra movement forms.


It can look like whatever the ghouls want, perhaps like other posters said, a monument to Nolin or Velendo .  A roper in its head compartment would be interesting as I said in my previous post, and a ghoul cleric in its chest compartment to heal it.  Perhaps there could be arrow slots for those inside to attack with (3/4 cover?), not sure how many creatures could realistically fit inside, but that's my take, adapt it as you like if you want to use it.


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot

Gah, double post


----------



## Knight Otu

If I may nitpick your creation, Sollir... 



> Attacks: 2 large arms +25 melee; 6 small arms +19



According to my calculations, this should be +21/+16.

Fort save is +9, Ref save is +7, Will save is +6.

It should have a Cha score, but a score of 1 is enough.

It should propably either construct or undead, not both.


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot

I admit I'm probably wrong about the arms part, but I was adapting the stats from CC 1, which has several errors, including the Cha of - and the fact that its an Undead Construct, I just left them like that though.  Thanks btw


----------



## Bronz Dragon

Was there something about a sahuagin treaty with the ghouls? If so:

 The ghouls are planning a massive move upriver somwhere nearby.  They are travelling against the current and most ghouls for all their endurance aren't very good swimmers, especially armed and armoured.  To solve this problem, they decide to build a boat.  Wood is a bit short in the underdark and stone, while it can float, is hard to work with.  They try stone a couple of times, and half the crews are washed away end up lunch for sharks and whales.  That gives them an idea.  
 They make up a few water-based ghouls and send them out into the ocean with sahuagin assistance in search of large marine life.  Basically anything huge or bigger.  All the whales and big fish they bring back are butchered and fed to the masses and their rib cages are melded together into a long tubular structure, sorta submarine shaped but more lumpy.  They stick a leviathan head at the front to make a sealable entrance.  Now they come to the problem of moving this monster:  it's a mile long and any muscle that wasn't needed to waterproof it has been eaten by the ravenous white kingdom, so they graft Kraken tentacles around the head and halfway along the body to pull it along the riverbanks. 

 They've learned the DoD were heading that way and may cause trouble, so they plant Shrieker Fungus (monster manual p93) all along the flanks of the beast at 10 ft intervals, so that when one is set off, they all go off in a cacophonous wail that summons guards to take care of the problem.  If the ship is in drydock, 3 parties of guards start at various points alongside of the beast, arriving at the defenders location in 1d4 minutes with an additional contingent arriving 1d4 rounds later.  If they find it actually moving downriver, the shriekers will summon ghouls from inside the beast and they will fight as though on top of a subway car.  

All rank and file ghoul troops are carried inside a massive whale intestine, which allows them to be 'vomitted' out when they reach their destination. 

 Alternatively, cover the sides of the transport's body with thousands of carrion crawlers and two megapedes(MMII p148) on the bottom for locomotion, replace the leviathan head with that of a gargantuan bulette , then stick 9 or so umber hulk torsos and equal numbers of destrachan heads on the inside of the mouth.  When it opens, the destrachan pulverize stone with their sonic breath weapon, and the umber hulks carve at the stone with their claws while the destrachans 'recharge'.  Then the kraken tentacles scoop the stone into a massive composite esophogus that runs the length of the body and poops it out the other end.  

In the end you have a massive troop transport with umpty-bajillion weapons to bring to bear against the Defenders.


----------



## Knight Otu

No problem, I figured some of the errors were holdovers from the CC. It isn't really known for correct rules usage, as you already noted.


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

Bronz Dragon said:
			
		

> * In the end you have a massive troop transport with umpty-bajillion weapons to bring to bear against the Defenders. *




(Stares up in awe. )

(Loses intestinal fortitude.)

Scale is everything.


----------



## Bronz Dragon

Akin Ringpeace said:
			
		

> *
> 
> (Stares up in awe. )
> 
> (Loses intestinal fortitude.)
> 
> Scale is everything. *



*takes a bow*

Even if it doesn't get used, this has gotten stuck in my head and I just had to see how it would turn out.  I may even use this myself down the road, so I'd appreciate any constructive criticism any of you would care to offer.

_*HUGE*_ weakness I just noticed, if anyone hits it from behind this whole things is basically screwed, it has to engage enemies as it comes out of a tunnel to be effective in combat whatsoever.


Ghoulish Transport Amalgam (Burrowing)
Megamole?
Necroworm?
AGC? (Armoured Ghoul Carrier)
Subterrain? (as opposed to submarine)


Leviathan Hit Points, AC, Saves, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma
Kraken Reach, selected Feats, Strength and Dexterity.
Megapede Speed and tremorsense
Destrachan Special Abilities
Umber Hulk special abilities and burrow (modified)
Carrion crawlers for flavour
True Ghoul Template added

*This is only a rough writeup*

Colossal+ Magical Undead

HD: 32d12 +323 (532 hp)
Init: +4 (improv initiative)
Spd: 80 ft.  Burrow 30ft.
AC: 29 (-8size +27natural) touch 0
Attacks: 2 Tentacle Rakes +29 Melee, 6 arms +24 melee, Bite +40 melee
Damage: Tentacle rake 2d8+13, arm 1d6+6, Bite 4d8+15 and Gulp
Face/Reach: 50 ft by 2000ft/100ft
SA: Improved Grab, Constrict, Gulp, Destructive Harmonics, Reverberating harmonics, Confusing Gaze, Paralysis, Grave Rot, Strength Damage, Create Spawn, Eye ray.
SQ: 360° Vision, Darkvision 60 ft., DR10/-, low-light vision, Tremorsense, SR 28, Resistant to Blows, Undead, Turn Resistance, Animate Dead, Summon Shadows
Saves Fort +28 Ref +18, Will +15
Abil:  STR36 DEX14 CON- INT6 WIS14 CHA11
Skills: Listen +5 Spot +5 Move Silently +4
Feats: Blind Fight, Improved Critical(Tentacle), Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Iron Will, Multiattack

CR: ???
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Advancemnt: 33-48 HD (Colossal+)


  The transport amalgam (ghouls at large aren't known for their creativity) represents an enormous expenditure of resources.  Ghouls were created to hunt and drag large animals, aquatic and landgoing, back to the underdark over a period of months.  There, the carcasses were stripped of excess flesh and the ribcages of of the largest animals were bonded together into one long tubular structure.  The digestive tracts of some of the larger creatures were retained, and used to create troop compartments which could 'vomit' out whole platoons at a time.  some lungs and stomach linings were used to create work areas for the army's commanders and mages.  

  This hideous device is a tubular patchwork of raw, exposed muscle and bone extending for nearly half a mile.  A gargantuan bulette head has been slapped on one end to create a sealable port through which ghouls may enter and exit.  Its entire face has been replaced by eyes; massive dragon eyes, drow eyes, dwarven eyes, human eyes and, most horrifying of all, Beholder eyes, which fire Inflict moderate wounds spells on any ghouls near it who are injured, healing them with negative energy.  All eyes on the face are protected by armour plates, and their arhythmic blinking tends to sound like an Umber Hulk trying to juggle turkey giblets.

  Near the point where the jaw pivots,  Kraken tentacles have been grafted on the inside of the mouth, three short arms and one long one to each side, creating the surreal image of multiple tongues lolling and writhing.  On the roof of the Bulette's mouth a number of Umber Hulk torsos are fused, along with a trio of destrachan heads attached to air sacs near the back.  When the mouth opens, the Umber hulks and the destrachan work in harmony to shatter and carve away at the rock, while the kraken tentacles scoop the debris into a specialized esophogus that 'swallows' the detritus down the length of the body, and deposits it at the other end.

  On top of the unnaturally long spine, shrieker fungii are planted every ten feet, slowly feeding off of the rotting flesh of the transport.  These fungii will alert all ghouls nearby to the prescense of a living being.  In addition to these fungii, nests of eyeballs blink randomly, rolling and staring around the construct, seeking any who would be so foolish as to attack a servant of the White Kingdom.

  Along the sides of the amalgam hundreds of carrion crawlers have had their backs fused with the bone and muscle of the construct's hide.  Their claw-feet wriggling in despair as they taste decaying flesh so near but are unable to feed.  Forty desert megapedes are fused like the 'crawlers in a double row along the belly of the beast, mindlessly running whenever and wherever the mind controlling the amalgam tells them to.  This combination of creatures allow the construct to haul itself through its self-constructed tunnels with ease, not relying solely on the megapede to drive it forward, since it is accustomed to moving much faster, and begins to give way rapidly to the stationary bulk of the construct itself.  Open space is another matter entirely:  the construct can easily run down a horse or any other riding animal, making it a perfect troop transport.


COMBAT

  Though not really designed for fighting, its sheer size and the natural weaponry grafted to its hulking frame allow it to defend itself adequately against a small party.  It can also 'swallow' attackers using its gulp ability and let the troops within it have an early snack.

Improved Grab
  To use this ability, the amalgam must hit an opponent of up to huge size with a tentacle attack.  If it gets a hold, it can constrict

Confusing Gaze
  Confusion as cast by an 8th level sorceror, 30 feet.  Will negates DC 15.  

Paralysis
  Those hit with a the construct's bite attack must make a fortitude save (DC 26) or be paralyzed for 2d6+6 minutes.  Elves are not immune to this paralysis.

Grave Rot
  The amalgam's natural weapons are covered in the filth of the grave, carrying diseases which it may spread.  At the end of combat, everyone hit by an amalgam's natural weapons must make a fortitude save (DC15) or contract grave rot.  Onset time 1 day, damage 1d6 hit points of damage each day until cured or the victim makes a successful Fortitude Save. Victims are allowed a new saving throw each day. Victims reduced to 0 hit points by grave-rot are transformed into true ghouls.

Strength Damage (Su)
  The amalgam also deals 1 point of temporary Strength damage to a living foe. A creature reduced to Strength 0 by a true ghoul dies.

Create Spawn (Su)
  In most cases, true ghouls devour those they kill. From time to time, however, the bodies of their humanoid victims lie where they fell. Slain victims who fail a Fortitude Saving Throw (DC 15) become normal ghouls, while those who succeed arise as true ghouls. If a true ghoul cleric is present, the victim receives a +4 bonus to the saving throw. Casting protection from evil on a body before the end of that time averts the transformation.

Constrict
  The amalgam deals automatic tentacle damage wit ha successful grapple check against huge or smaller creatures

Destructive Harmonics
  The construct can use its grafted destrachan heads to blast sonic energy in a cone up to 80feet long.  It can tune the harmonics of this destructive power to affect different types of targets:
_Flesh_: Disrupting tissue and splitting bones, this horrible attack deals 4d6 points of damage to all within the cone (ref half DC 15)
_Nerves_: The amalgam can focus its to subdue rather that slay.  This attack plays haboc with nerves and sensory systems, dealing 6d6 points of damage to all within the cone (Ref half DC 15)
_Material_: The amalgam may force Stone, wood, metal or glass within the cone to make a fortitude save (DC 15) or be shattered.

Gulp 
  The amalgam can swallow a huge or smaller creature by making a successful bite attack. The monster's interior contains thousands of ghoul shock troops and commanders.  Each round, the victim sustains one negative level of damage and 6d6 damage as ghouls tear hungrily at his flesh.  Anyone trapped inside cannot cut their way out because there are ribs along the entire length of this creature, acting like bars in a cell:  the only way out is the way they came in.

Reverberating harmonics
  The amalgam may bounce any of its sonic attacks off of a floor, wall or ceiling to affect all within 30 feet of the head. 

Eye Ray
  The amalgam has approximately 3 beholder eyes which can fire inflict moderate wounds spells once  each per round.  If an eye is disabled or closed, it cannot fire its spell

360° Vision
  The amalgam's myriad eyes, placed all around its bulk, allow it to see everything around it.  Because of this, it can never be caught flat-footed.

Resistant to Blows (Ex)
  Physical attacks deal only half damage to true ghouls. Apply this effect before damage reduction.

Undead
  Immune to mind-influencing effects, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, and disease. Not subject to critical hits, subdual damage, ability damage, energy drain, or death from massive damage.

Turn Resistance
  The amalgam possesses +4 turn resistance.

Animate Dead (Su)
  The amalgam may animate dead once per week. The total HD of skeletons or zombies created by a single use of this ability cannot exceed the true ghoul’s HD. There is no limit to the amount of undead that the true ghoul can control through use of this ability.

Summon Shadows (Su)
  The amalgam can summon 1d3 shadows once per day. The shadows arrive in 1 round and serve for 10 rounds or until released.

_EDIT - True Ghoul Template has been added, thanks to taran_


----------



## Piratecat

Good god. My version of the sunless sea just got a lot more interesting. I may combine this with Capellan's angler fish idea, dunno yet....

And the necromantic golem has "assassin" written all over it! Ohhh, yes. Undead roper? Sign me up.  

As for the big-ass unfinished construct, I'm also liking the carrion crawler idea a lot, and the eyes... hmmm. I have to think about this. And centipedes... I like centipedes. I'm not so sure about xorns, though, because I'm trying not to have elemental undead.  But now I have good ideas, thank goodness, instead of the creative blank I had before.

So, here's a secret just between us: anyone think that I can take out the entire party with one 15th lvl character?  I think I've figured out a way to do so. Details forthcoming, if anyone is interested.  And shhhhhh.


----------



## Citizen Mane

I'll bite — how're you planning to take out the party?  I've no idea off the top of my head how you would do this.

Best,
tKL


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot

Can't wait to see how you did it...

Edited out a small part since I thought it was a question and not a statement


----------



## Piratecat

Well, it's a combination of excessively optimized twinkiness (I'm not kidding here) and good tactics. I'm got a fun NPC with a prime ability score jacked higher than I'd normally allow, which is going to create an interesting (but not necessarily deadly) encounter.

Hmmm. You folks have been so kind to me, I should return the favor. Just remember: this stuff is secret from my players, so please no alluding to it elsewhere on the boards.

So please meet Nulloc Toadbringer, drow mercenary and absolute Genius!  He's not just smart; he's eerily, scarily smart, a combination of a tome and some magic and a whole lot of natural talent.  Nulloc, unfortunately, is an egocentric bore.  He dreams up improvisational plans to actions that his enemies haven't even considered yet, then boasts about them to his enemies in the middle of combat.  He bemoans the fact that the rest of the world is so stupid, and yet can't seem to stop congratulating himself for his own successes. He loves reassurance, worship, and reinforcement of what he considers his own best traits.

As a transmuter, he makes it a point not to kill his foes. Instead, he generally polymorphs them into large white toads and then captures them in sacks, taking them out to play with and torture whenever he feels the need for some company.  

So what we have here is a twinked out drow-elf wizard who is a master of tactics and dirty tricks, who is probably going to get the drop on our heroes while his whole spell array is active, and boasting _three_ chained polymorph other spells (3 x 15 people per spell) with pretty high DCs.  By the end of the surprise round, I suspect that most of the group will be toads, and I know of only one PC for sure who can shapeshift out of it.  I think the group can still kill him - a lot of them have spell-like powers that should still function - and the victory is going to be sweet for them. Nothing's more fun than killing a big jerk.  Ribbit.


----------



## Greybar

Oooh, fun!

Playing super-genius villains is always intimidating since, well, most of us aren't super-geniuses.

What's your take on this?  If the players think of something you didn't, will you toy with letting him have retroactively thought to put up a defense against it?

john


----------



## Piratecat

Nah, that's a little sleazy. I'm going to pull dirty tricks that I think will work, and good for the players if they figure them out!

For instance: He'll be hiding behind an illusory wall in one end of a dark cavern, using a _silence_ effect to hide the sound of spellcasting, out of range of most _detection_ abilities, but his _projected image_ will emerge from another illusory wall at the other end of the cavern.  He will be disguised as a ghoul, so that they waste precious time _turning_ him.  He'll have goblin minions attacking, but they've been polymorphed into trolls to appear more threatening.  That sort of thing.  I'm hoping that the one-two punch will keep the PCs off balance long enough for him to win.

Note that I'll be thrilled if he loses horribly, too; the fun is in the battle. My theory is that if I'm going to use a villain with darn high spell DCs, those spells should not be save-or-die spells.  Transmutation seemed like the way to go.


----------



## Samnell

Piratecat said:
			
		

> As for the big-ass unfinished construct, I'm also liking the carrion crawler idea a lot, and the eyes... hmmm. I have to think about this. And centipedes... I like centipedes.[/B]




Go with the eyes...you know you want to. Just say it with me now "eyesss"


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot

Sorry about the double post, lag made me think that my first didn't get through..delete this if you like


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot

I'm not sure if I should ask this, but after reading the last post a thought popped into my head.

Is it possible that the Puppeteer a true ghoul version of Morak?, and perhaps the other spellcasters who helped him were from the old party.  Especially the person who got his faced ripped off by the true ghoul queen, since she didn't have time to eat his body the create spawn effect would have taken place the next night?

Was just thinking it might make sense since they recovered the body of Sir Aleax...and because you're a rat-bastard DM   Oh well, just speculation on my part.


----------



## Kaodi

*Drow Transmuter*

I am sure you could figure out a statistical way to make this work...

Since you are going to try and have him polymorph all of his opponents into toads, why don't you let one of the more weak willed dwarves or PCs be turned into a snake? hehehehehehehe... *cackle*


----------



## Spatzimaus

Bronz Dragon, I think I'm gonna have nightmares about that construct.  But, you HAVE to give it a name.  Depending on your mood, it could be "Timmy", "Shiva", or "the Righteous Indignation".  Anyhoo, you left off one little thing: that whole apparatus at the front end is great for digging through rock, but what about other materials?  You'll need two Rust Monster tentacles/antennae/whatever you call them, for dissolving metals.  And, of course, a Folugub (PsiHB) tongue for dissolving crystals.

Oh, and it needs Turn Resistance or something.  After all, it IS undead, and you can never be too careful.

But, it made me think of something else.  The ghouls kill a lot of creatures.  Not all can be turned into ghouls, and not all are entirely edible.  So, you end up with, well, spare parts.  Bulette heads, dragon scales, whale skeletons, whatever isn't edible.  You could cover the construct with these sorts of things, making it have a real patchwork quality.  Besides, it confuses the players more.


----------



## Bronz Dragon

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> *you left off one little thing: that whole apparatus at the front end is great for digging through rock, but what about other materials?  You'll need two Rust Monster tentacles/antennae/whatever you call them, for dissolving metals.  And, of course, a Folugub (PsiHB) tongue for dissolving crystals.
> 
> Oh, and it needs Turn Resistance or something.  After all, it IS undead, and you can never be too careful.
> 
> But, it made me think of something else.  The ghouls kill a lot of creatures.  Not all can be turned into ghouls, and not all are entirely edible.  So, you end up with, well, spare parts.  Bulette heads, dragon scales, whale skeletons, whatever isn't edible.  You could cover the construct with these sorts of things, making it have a real patchwork quality.  Besides, it confuses the players more. *



  Going!  Added the True Ghoul Template to the write-up (one page back or so).  +4 turn resistance, _Yea_ baby!

  As for the other different creatures in its mouth, I picked the Destrachan because they can shatter pretty much any solid material, and while Rust monster and Folugubs would be useful in disarming the party, the transport is basically an APC, nothing more.  

  The body IS a patchwork, read the write-up and you'll find that landgoing AND aquatic animals were used in its construction.  I just used a leviathan's hit dice because it seemed most appropriate.  There is definitely a few pieces of leviathan in there, but there are also Delvers, Dragons, mundane whales, dire elephants and brontosauri, just to name a few.  I thought the carrion crawler legs covering most of the body, constantly twitching and wriggling and groping with their tentacles was disturbing enough.


----------



## Bronz Dragon

*Re: Corroded Dragons & Statues*



			
				Kaodi said:
			
		

> *Ah, here is another interesting idea (at least I hope it is interesting to you).
> 
> As the Defenders of Daybreak are going up a bunch of undead, maybe you should send them some variations on monsters that are a sort of metallic form of undead. In short, Corroded Monsters.
> 
> For instance, say that in whatever city the ghouls occupy, there used to be a colossal spider statue (I know, we don't need more drow, but this is just an example). Instead of being just a normal animating statue under the control of the Puppeteer, or even just preprogramming, it would be describe as being corroded, and could have a bunch of abilities springing from that idea... say, nonmagical metal striking or struck by it instantly dissolves, its venom is powerful acid, and stuff in a similiar vein. The creatures would be immune (at least partially) to positive energy, keeping them still in theme.*



  What would happen if a true ghoul rust monster took a bite out of an automaton, or other animated metal construct?  

  Food for thought ...


----------



## Burne

As Rust monsters have been brought up:

Halfling Fighter 6/lasher 3/ Windrider X

Mount: Rust Monster
Tatics: Disarm foes weapons into off hand, free action drop weapon, Rust monster uses its action to eat yummy weapons.

More weird fun
Vampire Druid 5 (I think) Tamer of Beats X
Nothing but Stirge beast companions, Think of the Image, Vampire swarm of Stirges, stirges get to hunt, Vampire get convient feeding objects.


----------



## Fade

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *
> As a transmuter, he makes it a point not to kill his foes. Instead, he generally polymorphs them into large white toads and then captures them in sacks, taking them out to play with and torture whenever he feels the need for some company.*




So if and when the PCs kill him they may get some sudden 'instant allies'.


----------



## maddman75

Lets not forget the tactic of tossing the bag (of polymorphed, powerful, confused unintelligent monsters) into the PCs and casting dispel magic...


----------



## taran

Yes, go with the eyes.  In fact, go all the way with the eyes and make them grafted undead beholder eyes!  Building off of *Bronz Dragon*'s nasty, _disintegrate_ rays take care of the tunneling, _telekinesis_ rays let it ferry troops into its mouth, and _cure critical wounds_ rays turn the thing into a floating sickbay.  For added fun, mount dozens of _vampiric touch_ eyestalks along the edges of the creature, so it can launch horrific broadsides of negative energy.

I'm thinking _disintegrate_ and _telekinesis_ stalks mounted at each end, _cure critical wounds_ stalks in the interior, and _vampiric touch_ stalks mounted every ten feet or so along the perimeter.  That sounds like a lot (and it is, 200 or so per broadside) but their range is such that only 12 will bear on one target at a time, and even then the poor sap has to be standing right on the troop transport.  

So what's to stop the PC's from targeting and destroying these eyes?  The diversions.  Use *Samnell*'s ideas for eyes, distributed all over the creature's body.  If memory serves it's not immediately obvious where the beholder's rays are coming from.  They could, of course, just fireball the entire general area.

The big problem is finding that many beholder eyes; the number of _vampiric touch_ stalks can be scaled down as needed, though I'm fond of the idea of ghoulish flotillas sweeping across with negative energy broadsides like naval commanders of old.  Maybe a separate creature, only twenty or thirty feet long, which serves as a ghoulish destroyer?

This is a link to the True Ghoul template: http://home.gwi.net/~rdorman/frilond/rul/dm/ghoul.htm


----------



## Bronz Dragon

Slapped that Template on, and BOY is this thing starting to look nasty.  Beholder Eyes I'll have to think about.  I don't really want to equip this thing with more natural weapons than are necessary for digging.  That _disintegrate_ though, hmmmm...

Eyes all over?  Suuuure, excellent.  Half of this project was to make this beast as sick-looking as possible, that just about does the trick.  Thanks muchly!


----------



## Xarlen

Here's something I saw in a non-D&D book that I HAD TO share. 

Let's say you take seven dozen corpses. Cut them in half at the stomach. Shove the head of the corpse into the chest cavity of the next one, and sew them all together. What do you get?

An undead centipede like creature, with seven dozen sets of hands, and one head at the very end. Put a bladed harness on it, and send it after battalions.

If you damage part of it (Destroying a section), the head attached to that section just pops out, and it tears itself in half. Now you have two smaller ones coming at you. Or they may just link back together.


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

taran said:
			
		

> * and cure critical wounds rays turn the thing into a floating sickbay.  *




Wouldn't that be "cause critical wounds" for undead?

One man's medicine is another man's poison.


----------



## taran

> Wouldn't that be "cause critical wounds" for undead?
> 
> One man's medicine is another man's poison.



D'oh!  Yes, _inflict critical wounds_ is what I meant.

I previewed and everything, I swear...


----------



## Destil

For your undead transportation construct, what about something that's self assembling? The defenders could wander into the assembly zone and see the partialy completed creature grabing piles of corpses and fusing them to itself (if the're there in time).

Perhaps it tunnles through rock by blasting it to sand with a powerfull sonic blast and then burrowing. It could have some sort of 'array' of long bone spines at the front that vibrate magicaly, dealing continual sonic damage to anything in it's way and pulverizing solid rock to sand for movement. The tail could likewise produce perodic blasts of eletricity that fuese the sand back into glass, making it harder to follow. (Though the gohuls could turn this off if they want to use it as the head of a convoy and have a small army of undead following behind)


----------



## Sagrabah

How come no one has mentioned a variant on the Delver?  It is kind of a silly creature, but you can't deny that it's huge and has some powerful acid.  It has the luring qualities of a slug (which is an idea of itself).  It could sure be fun if it could, say, fly magically.

So it's undead, dripping necrotic acid and has a whale sized rib cage for transport (providing cover) and slimes its way right through stone.  Add a few undead beholders peering out fractures in the ribcage and ta-da!


----------



## blargney

How about a _stone to flesh_ food farm?

I know that the ghouls are all nominally under the control of somebody who's virtually deific, but are there factions within the White Kingdom?  Anybody who's willing to sacrifice some other ghoul's principality to the Defenders in order to further his own cause?

How efficient is the communication between the ghouls?  Do they guard the secrets of their undead technologies from each other, or do they share everything?  Is there a war or a truce between them?  Are they using the time they have to develop new weapons and support technologies?  Are there resources that are in short supply, or anything that's particularly crucial?  Any trade routes or supply lines that the Defenders could disrupt?

It would be nasty to have someone _send_ them a message that something they hold dear is being attacked or destroyed while they are incapable of doing anything to help.  A subtler way of giving them this message would be like finding barrels of Shire pipeweed in Isengard.

Have you developed any feats for ghouls to overrun victims?  Maybe an undead prestige class that gives teamwork bonuses to groups of ghouls.  Sort of like Valdek's sword...  Hmm.  Would your players hate you if you brought him back as a True Ghoul?

It'd be a nice little present for Velendo if one of his followers researched a domain spell that works like a _Magic Circle Against Ghouls_.  Maybe giving a bonus to Fortitude saves vs paralysis.

Hope this helps!
-blarg


----------



## Malin Genie

Samnell said:
			
		

> *How about an umber hulk collossus? Same general body plan as an umber hulk, maybe similar general powers, but freakin' huge and made of bodies. Only thing is it's kind the necropede's second coming.
> 
> Hmmm...Heads. Lots of heads. All kinds of heads. Together. They eat their way through the rock (or disintegrate or whatever) and they come in a hollow sphere shape so they double as an undead army carrying case.
> 
> EDIT: Getting more into the head image...they could all be slavering and gibbering while they do it.
> 
> Maybe parts of heads to make up the giant head. The eyes are huge swarms of peering, lidless eyes swimming in glistening goo, all swiveling independently of each other... *




Imagine -  the hall of mirrors.  Fragments of glistening crystal and silver festoon the floors and the ceiling, projecting at odd angles, glued to stalactites and stalagmites, like a Versailles gone mad.

In a great pit in the centre of the room, the construction of the Ueber Hulk (look, only one letter need be changed!)  As the ghouls took over the mind flayer refuges, they found plenty of material for their 'weapon'.  Two massive spheres form the centrepiece; in a nod to fractals, each 'eye' comprises thousands of actual umber hulk eyes, each itself comprising thousands of swirling, glittering pixels.  

The overall effect is of a psychedelic disco atmosphere; the eyes alive through necromatic magic, the mirrors flashing fragmented images in all angles through the cavern, so wherever the PCs look, the only way they can avoid confusion and madness is to close their eyes completely.  Of course the workmen and the foremen defending the construct have no such limitations, being immune to mind-affecting powers...

Beneath the eyes the carapace has options - either pebblecreted from the carapaces of the slain umber hulks, or carved skillfully from rock by undead dwarves; in either case a ghoulish paste (in a nod to the Epic Level Handbook's flesh colossus) of delisquesced Umber Hulk flesh is shaped onto the inside of the limbs to provide the fleshly conduit required for ghoulomancy (tm) to granat movement.  But inside the main body are tiers of benches (or even just row after row of exoskeletal projections made from Umber Hulk mandibles that grip head/shoulders/legs and clip into place over the ghoulish occupant, able to quickly release when the 'stomach' opens...)

Even if incomplete, the eyes/mirrors will make preventing its completion a challenging battle; if complete, extrapolation of a Collosal Ghoulish Umber Hulk Construct-Thingy shouldn't be too hard...


----------



## Bronz Dragon

you could even go with crude'n simple, just have them stumble into the necromancer's workshop as they assemble any of the above monstrosities


----------



## Knightfall

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *My theory is that if I'm going to use a villain with darn high spell DCs, those spells should not be save-or-die spells.  Transmutation seemed like the way to go. *




P'Cat, really enjoyed your latest story hour updates.

Don't know if this undead creature is dangerous enough by itself but you could add some minions and give them a real surprise.  

I've left a lot of the details for you to develop like an unique character name, its familiar and spells so you can customize it however you like.

*Awakened* 1 HD Skeleton/5th-level Fighter/5th-level Rogue/5th-level Sorcerer*

*Medium-Size Undead*
Hit Dice: 12 + 5d10 + 5d6 + 5d4 (79 hp)
Initiative: +7 (+3 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 30ft.
AC: 26 (+3 Dex, +7 leather armor, +3 small wooden shield, +1 ioun, +2 natural)
Attacks: 2 claws +14 melee; +3 unholy longsword +16 melee
Damage: Claws 1d4+3; +3 unholy longsword 1d8+6
Face/Reach: 5ft. by 5ft./10ft.
Special Attacks: Sneak attack +3d6
Special Qualities: Evasion, familiar, uncanny dodge (dexterity bonus to AC), undead immunities
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +11
Abilities: Str 17 (+3), Dex 17 (+3), Con -- (+0), Int 10 (+0), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 16 (+3)
Skills: Balance +8, Bluff +7, Climb +8, Concentration +10, Diplomacy +8, Escape Artist +8, Gather Information +8, Jump +9, Listen +5, Read Lips +5, Sense Motive +6, Spot +5, Tumble +8
Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, [Craft Magic Arms and Armor], (Deflect Arrows), Dodge, Improved Initiative, Improved Turn Resistance **, (Improved Unarmed Strike), Mobility, Toughness, (Weapon Focus (claws))
Challenge Rating: (?)
Alignment: Neutral evil

Spells Known: 6/4/2
Spells per Day: 6/6/4
Bonus Spells: 0/1/1

Possessions: _+5 leather armor, +2 small wooden shield, +3 unholy longsword, Belt of Giant Strength (+6), Gloves of Dexterity (+4), Ioun Stone (dusty gray), Ioun Stone (incandescent blue), Ioun Stone (pink), Ioun Stone (vibrant purple)._

* Using _Awaken Undead_ spell from Savage Species.
** Feat from Savage Species.


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot

Not sure how much you would like this idea or not, but how about a monster or two with the Fusion psionic power from the WotC site.  Two or three different creatures with various powers (focusing on one or two stats), weak on their own, but all together they form a *very* fearsome creature.


----------



## Bronz Dragon

sorta like voltron or the power rangers...  

I have this image of a bunch of rotting corpses doing one of those 'hero group' poses and shouting something with mushy voices.  even just make them really weak and stupid and make them a repeating theme


----------



## Sialia

Ok, I posted this to P'cat privately, but it's too good--I gotta share it around.

Over the weekend, I flubbed and referred to something accidentally as a nice jar of "flesh green water."

Honest--I just tripped over my tongue and got the exact opposite of what I wanted. ("fresh clean water")

But now I'm having visions of a vendor wandering Akin's Throat selling the stuff . . .


----------



## Spatzimaus

Sialia said:
			
		

> *"flesh green water."
> *




Would that be Soylent Green Stew?

Anyway, they're in Akin's Groin/Seep/Throat, and it's beautiful.  It's always fun to see what a true Rat-Bastard DM can come up with when he's helped by a certified team of SubBastards.  So, one request:

When you're done posting the stories from there, can you tell us some of the encounters you planned that they DIDN'T run into?  This seems like the sort of place that could be inserted into a lot of other campaigns too, and it'd be nice to have it as fleshed out as possible.

Mmmm... fried mice...


----------



## Piratecat

Flesh green water!  I grinned ear to ear when I saw that.  I think I'll use it game after next....

And thank you all again for Akin's Throat. It's SO much better than it would have been if I were trying to do this by myself.  I'll post a map eventually, but here's a list of the various interesting people and shops who populate the city:

*Akin’s Throat*

•	Size: roughly 400’ by 800’. Ceilings are 30’ to 80’ tall.

•	Lighting: Faint green glow from phosphorescent fungus. Occasional torches at stands.. Individual light spells. Faerie fire effect in a lot of places. The prism nexus glows slightly.

•	Scenery: Silent floating flumphs. Multiple huge mushrooms, easily 20’ tall with 10’ stems and 30’ caps. Walls carved in horrible shapes, such as mushrooms and beetles; pillars carved likewise. Very misty air, very warm (about 90 degrees) and extremely humid. Air smells like minerals and rot. Boiling steam pools and a geyser. Colorful banners and stands everywhere, as well as tents.  In the south, an underground stream drains over a series of stalactites, and they drip like rain onto a pitted floor. Preparations for beetle fishermen: nets, nooses, harpoons, and the like.

•	Who’s in charge?  The myconids control the place, and use the fungus-coated body of Akin to keep order. Everyone agrees. Disagreements are satisfied in the Arena, usually by Luccia or Ellius, her less sadistic partner.

•	Who is banned?  Any ghoul or ghoul ally, excepting kuo-toa. Any jerran.

•	What’s for sale? 

	Fresh meat of many varieties, none of it intelligent, all at The Butcher’s (intelligent awakened spider, store in eastern web)
	Delicacies d’Chelb, a drow-run shop for the finest in delicacies from a dozen different races. Owned by Plindilin No-House.
	Dambril’s Festhall. All-out debauchery, with music and dancing. Dambril’s a kobold loyal to Klixxit.
	Mirjik’s Eccentricities. Mirjik is a mercane, and prefers to sell “good” items. The money’s just too good here, however. He lectures anyone who comes in about their questionable moral values. He has lots of “holy” items as well. He is an excellent source of information, and can introduce the PCs to almost anyone in The Throat. Mirjik has ten XP potions for sale, all based on Hagiok’s, and will sell them for a thousand gold a piece.  His whole shop is extradimensional, and he can close the door. He can also offer them shelter.
	Ploor’s Safeguards: in a tent and run by a goblin, Ploor sells holy water, holy symbols, sunrods, a figurine of Velendo (brought in by Kithlin), and any number of anti-undead measures.
	Random booths – sell undead armor, tangle-foot bolas, drugs and exlixirs, alcohol, yucky components like mephit fat. Art, such as desmodu musical sculptures and kuo toa carvings.
	Troll-inna-Box: run by an ogre. 
	Galastor, beholder architect.
	Fiel, erinyes and fronts-woman for a “cloning” service.
	Klunth’s Skins & Pelts, run by four skaven. Also sells clothes.
	Prust’s Forge, run by duergar.
	The Arena, run by vampires Luccia and Ellius, with lots of goblin slaves.
	Slave seller, owned by Du’eel, illithid. Uses ogre overseers.
	Zombie pen, run by Kithlin, orcish necromancer. Friends with Du’eel.
	Vermin nook, run by Ligreep, a degenerate skaven bard. Lots of vermin. Gearing up for the Beetle Flood.
	Tadpoles, a goblin named Blin selling illithid tadpoles as entertainment and tools.
	Blin’s Meat Pies. Mmmm.
	Mercenary Hall: featuring kobolds with porcupines, hobgoblin agents, goblin and troll teams, a stone golem for rent (by its ogrish owner), and a representative of the hivemind.
	Songs of Stones, run by a myconid. Goblins and bagpipes, including bagpipe of legend that can cause fear.
	Nilf’s Beetles, run by the goblin beetle-wrangler himself
	Moss And Mold, run by myconids who never speak.
	Slubble’s Fish. Very old Kuo-Toa Fishmonger.
	Laujin’s brain pies.
	Dimm’s Halfling Fingers (mice) and delicious fried treats
	Yurm’s Pest Control, who control the pests such as flumphs. Owned by a teenaged girl named Sath.
	Speaker’s Rock, home of the outspoken
	Temple Wall, where shrines are set up and people try to recruit others
	Tally the Seer, a complete fake
	Throat’s Flophouse, floor space in dirty tunnels.
	Throat’s Inn, a nicer place to stay, bed space in cleaner tunnels.
•	Who makes a good guide?  Mirjik thinks Hangle, goblin caver. Other people think Molduk, kobold explorer. The absolute best is a drow female named Ma’chel. But she’s a typical drow female, and thus hard to deal with.


----------



## GreyShadow

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Vermin nook, run by Ligreep, a degenerate skaven bard. Lots of vermin. Gearing up for the Beetle Flood.
> *



Beetle Flood... this is the one that sounds oh so interesting.
I'm sure someone will want to stay around and be there for that. 

Great work Piratecat!


----------



## Vargo

Hey Piratecat, I have no idea how this could be handy, but you might come up with some idea to drive Agar totally out of his mind with this one:

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle....0CRBAEOCFEY?type=ourWorldNews&storyID=2267001


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

you MADE my day.

glad they liked the mice.

I'm so proud.


----------



## arwink

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *[*]	Mercenary Hall: featuring kobolds with porcupines, hobgoblin agents, goblin and troll teams, a stone golem for rent (by its ogrish owner), and a representative of the hivemind.
> *




???

You know, I'm almost afraid to ask...


----------



## Ashy

Glad to see Kilxxit at least made honorable mention.   Vargo - awesome link - THANKS!


----------



## Hecabus

*Ritualized Ghoul Creature*

I think everyone is kinda missing the mark.  The Amalgamated Ghoul Creature TM has been done several times to great effect, but it has been done.  The story needs a more dire develpment than another creature.  What about an Avatar of the unborn god.


----------



## Hatchling Dragon

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Here's one person's version of the true ghoul template.
> 
> http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=561
> 
> I like the crab idea!  I like the whale concept, too. Not that much water in most of the underdark, though!  *




Ok, then how about using an Octopus instead of Whale?  The arms would be strings of Ghouls each holding/merged with the next one 'out' from the main body.  When the PC's are grappled they face not only Ghoul Paralysis, but all those inward-facing mouth/suckers attacking.  Perhaps a Stat Drain to REALLY mess with them.  True *Rat Bastard DM's* would of course make that stat a _Constitution_ drain, seeing as how they'd probably be spending time underwater.  I can see it now:

GM:  "Ok, you lost your grapple check last round and were drug underwater."

PC:  "No problem, I have a high CON, I'll just hack this tentacle away while holding my breath."

GM:  "Right, um, roll a save vs CON drain..."

Bwahaha, and it fits in with an Evil Idea (tm) I'd sent you months ago Mr P-kitty.  This assumes you have *any* idea what I'm talking about   I could re-send the E-mails if you forgot/lost it.

Hatchling Dragon


----------



## Fade

A thought: Battle against ghoulish agents. An Illusionist has placed illusions on all the attackers to make them look like friends, relatives and loved ones of the PCs. No real effect, but a creepy visual.

Or make them all look like the PCs to sow confusion in battle.

Can the ghoul template be applied to insects? Thousands of ghoulish flying beetles, all with a paralysing touch, could be nasty. Particularly given their newfound appetitle for flesh.

If the underdark has standard-issue glowing fungi, the stuff in the ghoulish areas should be obviously undead. Not a plot on the part of the ghouls, just a side-effect of all that negative energy.

Undead entombed in rock walls, with just their eyes exposed. Shadowing ridges make these hard to spot. Kelharin possesses them as 'serveillance cameras' (and to cast Silent Still spells).

Lure the PCs into a tunnel, then have Ghoulish Umber Hulks dig through the last bit of rock seperating it from asubterranean lake. The impact of the flash-flood probably knocks the Defenders around a bit, then the ghoulish giant squid (who were in the lake) attack. Several ghouls with wands of Dispel Magic hand behind and keep getting rid of the Defender's Water Breathing spells.


----------



## Sialia

*Re: Ritualized Ghoul Creature*



			
				Hecabus said:
			
		

> *I think everyone is kinda missing the mark.  The Amalgamated Ghoul Creature TM has been done several times to great effect, but it has been done.  The story needs a more dire develpment than another creature.  What about an Avatar of the unborn god. *




Bangs head slowly on desk. Does not post.

posts, posts meaninglessness.

not posting not posting not posting.

Sialia GOOD.  Sialia not make trouble for PCs.

PC already has trouble for PCs plenty.

No post today.

No.

warn PCs--yess. Must warn PCs.

Wait. Bad Idea not Posted. PC won't have it yet.

Oh yes, yes he does. Suren thing. He does.

wait. wait.  we wait. yes. lurk only.

wait for story.

lurk.


----------



## Piratecat

Fade said:
			
		

> *Can the ghoul template be applied to insects? Thousands of ghoulish flying beetles, all with a paralysing touch, could be nasty. Particularly given their newfound appetitle for flesh.
> *




Oh God. You're a genius. You just solved a major problem for me.

Yay!


----------



## Yellow Sign

Humm a ghoulish locust swarm.....Delicious!!!!

And talking about delicious, how about a ghoulish feast! Yes you hear me right. UNDEAD FOOD! Have the players invited to a dinner by some big muckty muck. The main coarse is a cooked creature of some type. Well it's dead and it's been cooked but its undead. That way you can catch your players with their collective pants down. No prepared spells. No ARMOR! Weapons at the door sort of thing. Just a thought.


----------



## Gidien

Seeing as my last monster post went over well, here are two that I came up with. Both use negative energy in unique ways, but niether are undead. They could easily be working for the ghouls, due to their abilities. And both could use some char levels to bring them on par with the Defenders.

Life Taker
Medium-Size Outsider (Evil)
HD: 12d8+60 (114)
Initiative: +8 (+4 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 50’
AC: 28 (+4 Dex, +14 Natural)
Attacks: Shadow Blade +19/+14/+9
Damage: Shadow Blade 1d12+7 and Soulbane
Face/Reach: 5’x5’/5’
Special Attacks: Shadow Blade, Soulbane, Spell-like Abilities
Special Qualities: Damage Reduction 20/+2, SR 24, Immunities, Darksight, Shadow 	Form
Saves- F: +13 R: +12 W: +11
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 18, Con 20, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 14
Skills: Concentrate +20, Hide +23, Listen +18, Move Silently +23, Spellcraft +18, Spot 	+18, Wilderness Lore +18, Knowledge (planes) +4
Feats: Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Cleave, Track
Clime:  Any
Organization: Solitary, Pair, or Hunt (3-5)
CR: 13 (?)
Treasure: Half coins; standard goods; standard items
Align: Always Neutral Evil
Adv. Range: 13-18 HD (Medium-Size); 19-33 (Large)

In the deepest parts of the negative energy plane there are places of such strong un-life that strange creatures and objects are birthed. A famous example of such is the deadly voidstone. Another, rarer example is a Life Taker, a strange outsider birthed where several souls fall to the plane’s deadly influence. They hunt out life, on which they feast, and are famous for their killing skill. They area also excellent at remaining hidden, and make perfect assassins.
Life Takers are patches of solid darkness, rough featureless sketches of tall, broad-shouldered but lean men. They move quickly and stealthily, even in combat, wielding their deadly shadow blades. 

Combat
Life Takers prefer ambush, tracking prey and laying down clever ambushes. They use their shadow form abilities to strike from impossible places, and to retreat if necessary. They attack weaker looking opponents first, to gain strength.
Shadow Blade (Su): These unique swords are shards of negative energy, melded into the creatures’ arms, and can be created and dismissed as free actions. They have an enhancement bonus of +2.
Soul Bane (Su): When striking a living opponent with a shadow blade, a Life Taker focuses negative energy to strike at the target’s life force. Living opponents take and additional 2d6 damage. The Life Taker heals 5 points of damage with each strike, if possible. Any opponent reduced to –1 hp or below by a Life Taker’s attack is affected as if by a death knell spell. Benefits from multiple uses of this stack for the Life Taker, with up to a +10 to strength, +5 caster level, and up to 5d8 temporary hp.
Spell-like abilities: A Life Taker can use the following as spell like abilities, once per day unless noted. Deeper darkness 3/day, desecrate, enervation, magic circle against good, unholy blight. The Life Taker casts these as a 12 level sorcerer, DC: 12+spell level.
Darksight (Ex): Born in the lightless depths of the negative energy plane, Life Takers can “see” in any darkness, even magical forms.
Shadow Form (Su): For a total of one minute each day, the Life Taker can become a mass of true shadows, becoming incorporeal. Entering Shadow Form is a standard action, leaving it is a free action. While incorporeal the Life Taker has no strength score, no attack, and has and AC of 16. The minute may be broken up over multiple uses during a day. If a Life Taker is forced to take physical form in a solid object, it is shunted to the nearest empty space, taking 1d6 damage for every 10’ moved in this way.
Immunities: A Life Taker is immune to cold and negative energy effects.
Skills: Due to their shadowy nature, Life Takers gain a +4 racial bonus to hide and move silently checks.


----------



## Gidien

And for the other, shamelessly stolen from the Magic card of the same name (great artwork, IMHO). Hope Wizards doesn't mind.

Desolation Angel
Medium-size Outsider (Evil)
HD: 12d8+24 (78)
Initiative: +5 (Dex, Improved Initiative)
Speed: 30’, fly 60’ (average)
AC: 21 (+10 natural, +1 Dex)
Attacks: +2 ranseur +17/+12
Damage: +2 ranseur 2d4+6
Face/Reach: 5’x5’/ 5’ (10’ with ranseur)
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, Negative Energy Beam +13 ranged touch, Desolation		Field
Special Qualities: DR 20/+2, SR 21, Immunities, Fire, cold, and electricity resistance 10,		Telepathy
Saves- F: +10 R: +9 W: +10
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 16,
Skills: Concentration +17, Knowledge (any 2) +17, Listen +17, Spot +17, Move		Silently +16, Hide +12
Feats: Fly-by Attack, Weapon Focus (ranseur), Improved Initiative, Ability Focus 	(Desolation Aura)
Clime: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary
CR: 10 (?)
Treasure: No coins; double goods, double items
Align: Neutral Evil
Adv. Range: 13-24 HD (medium-size)

Desolation angels are beings of pure destruction. Their very presence withers their surroundings. Used as assassins, guardians, and sometimes even deadly shock troops, these beings are almost always in the employ of a powerful outsider. They are not particularly cruel or sadistic, but they have no real conscience. They were born to kill, and that’s what they do.
	Desolation angels are always beautiful females with chalky-gray skin and jet-black hair. They have large feathery wings the color of cooling lava. Desolation angels favor flowing black, gray or blood red robes that do nothing to hide their figure. Their clothing is often adorned with vulture or crow motifs, and some enjoy wearing expensive jewelry. All carry magical ranseurs the color of dried blood.

Combat 
Desolation angels favor surprise attack, sweeping down to strike from above. They use fly-by attack, negative energy, and spell-like abilities at first, keeping to cover and avoiding melee. When all their abilities are exhausted, they close for melee, allowing the desolation field to winnow away at their enemies.
Spell-like Abilities: At will- detect good and detect magic; 1/day- magic circle against good, unholy blight, and summon monster IV.
Negative Energy Beam (Su): Once every 1d6 rounds, a desolation angel can unleash a burst of negative energy. This counts as a ranged touch attack, with a maximum range of 20’ and no range increments. If the target is struck, he suffers one negative level. The DC to remove the level is 17. This is an energy drain attack.
Desolation Field (Su): At the beginning of a desolation angel’s action, all creatures within 10’ of the angel are affected as if struck by an inflict serious wounds spell. All those affected take 3d8+12 negative energy damage, and may make a Will save for half (DC: 19). 
Immunities (Ex): Desolation angels are immune to all negative energy effects. 
Telepathy (Su): Desolation angels can communicate telepathically with all creatures within 100’ that have a language.


----------



## Carnifex

As I mentioned in the main SH thread, I have an idea you could use for making even nastier ghouls 

I've only got ideas down yet and haven't finalised it intoa  full crunchy form yet, despite having already used it in my own campaign, but it's basically a template called 'Ghul-Pack'. A ghul-pack is a pack of ritually bound ghouls who effectively have a hivemind conciousness. They're still individuals with their own intelligence but at the same time work in an eerily cohesive manner.

 - All members of a ghul-pack are always aware of all the others in respect to position, status, hit points, etc.
 - No ghul-pack ghoul is flanked unless all the ghouls in a pack are.
 - All ghouls in a ghul-pack gain the Alertness feat.
 - All ghouls in a ghul-pack gain additional bonuses while flanking enemies with other ghul-pack members, including a further bonus for grappling attempts (they're very good at bringing down a foe by grappling them then piling on).
 - ghul-pack ghouls have a limited capability to swap hit points around. For my campaign its all still fairly low level but with tough True Ghouls you could have some seriously nasty manipulation of this ability, as the front rank get badly injured by party members then just pass the injuries onto other ghouls lurking behind them; or better yet spread injuries out amongst all of them so it is very hard to kill off any one ghoul. In this way ghul-pack ghouls can operate very tactically by redirecting damage around amongst themselves. Also, ghouls that are turned and flee will use this ability to aid the fight, even if they can't contribute directly due to the turning.

The ghouls doing this to my party kind of caught them on the hop, especially when they piled a fair bit of damage into the ghast leader only for it to transfer all the damage to the last remaining normal ghoul. The ghoul died instantly but it left an untouched ghast ready for battle again.

This template could be used to represent 'special forces' squads of ghouls magically bound together, elite guards, or other such nasties


----------



## coyote6

Sounds like an adapted axiomatic template (from MotP) -- it would be spooky. I've been considering using what would amount to flintlock-armed axiomatic orcs as an extraplanar menace, so I already like the basic idea. 

OTOH, it's kind of close to the hivemind that the PCs have apparently already encountered, so it might seem too much of a retread.

Hey, P-cat! What happens if one of those hivemind people (like, say, the one in Akin's Throat) gets ghoul-ized? Could the ghoul-ish condition spread through the hivemind, somehow? Or perhaps the ghoul member could take over the other parts of the hivemind, while leaving them still living (thus giving the White Kingdom some living agents).


----------



## Kaodi

*Sinister Idea*

This is based on an idea I am going to be using in the creative writing contest at my school.

Wouldn't it be in the true essence of the Rat Bastard Dungeon Master to have a final villain that was only vulnerable to a sinister weapon of pure evil, one that possesses a ridiculously high ego? I mean, if you give the super-creature something like DR 30/specific weapon, chances are that they are going to need to use it, especially if that person in question is difficult to harm with magic. Unholy would be inappropriate in this case, but there are probably lots of other nasty powers such a weapon might of been created with to destroy the opponent... Not only do you get the side quest of gaining the weapon, but you get that dark plot hook of the wielder slowly being pulled towards evil. To make it really different, you could even start with a lower ego, and then raise it by 1 every time a specific condition is met... so, say if the Puppeteer was the final villain, or the one the sword was meant to slay, every time a body it was currently controlling was slain by the sword, the ego would rise by 1.... I thought this might be useful to your campaign, so I decided to post it, hope it helps.


----------



## Spatzimaus

Hmm... evil artifact, big Ego score, tries to take over the group but they know they need it and can't let it fall into enemy hands... I think they did that with Velendo and the Damming Stone.  On the other hand, I keep thinking of a certain hobbit and his ring, so it's easy to get confused.

All this talk of axiomatic orcs reminded me: I loaned my MotP out, so could someone tell me what elemental resistances Axiomatic and Anarchic give?  (Don't need numbers, just which two or three elements).

Coyote6: now that is a purely Evil idea.  What WOULD happen to an Axiomatic hivemind if one member was ghoulized?  If it was then possible for the "corrupted" member to stay in the collective and try to influence it, what about the Modrons?  (Hey, maybe THAT'S why they're marching!)


----------



## Knightfall

*A new NPC idea for Atkin's Throat*

Ok, I don't know if you've run the fight between Stone Bear and Galthia in the  arena yet but if not then you should have the other PCs meet this guy in stands watching the spectacle.

Halfor Wincet (N male half-drow Ari8/Rog8)

Now, he's kind of plain but he's one of the few native nobles in the city.  He could strike up a small friendship with Agar, as he has travelled to Sigil on occasion and I can see Agar chatting him up.

After the fight is over, Halfor invites them to his home for a post battle celebration.

Now he has this HUGE dinning room with a great oak table which he 'acquired' from the surface world.  Dinner comes and all sorts of great delecasies are provide in a eight course meal.  The final thing that comes for dessert in Halfor's favorite.

Beetle ice cream!

Take layers of chocolate and vanilla and smother them with chocolate sauce, raspberrys and what at first glance look like coffee beans.

Imagine his horror when they twitch and move around in the sauce!  (Or one on his spoon just as he's about to take a bite.)  

After all, beetle ice cream is best served live!

Cheers!

Rob


----------



## Ryan Koppenhaver

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> *... could someone tell me what elemental resistances Axiomatic and Anarchic give?
> *




Axiomatic get resistance to fire, cold, electricity, and sonic; the amount varies by level. 

Anarchic creatures get fire, cold, acid, electricity, and sonic resistance 5.


----------



## Greybar

Rob, I like the way you think. -John


----------



## Knightfall

Greybar said:
			
		

> *Rob, I like the way you think. -John *




Thanks John, I was really proud of that idea.  We should try to come up with some cool 'entree' ideas just in case P'Cat likes the idea as well.

Stuff suitable to Akin's Throat without grossing out the PCs or frightening Agar before the dessert comes.

BTW, I was thinking that NPC would be a good candidate to be a new, converted member of the Society of Sensation.  He converted when in Sigil and now tries anything at least once.

Heh!

Rob


----------



## Bronz Dragon

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *We should try to come up with some cool 'entree' ideas just in case P'Cat likes the idea as well.
> 
> Stuff suitable to Akin's Throat without grossing out the PCs or frightening Agar before the dessert comes.*



 How about beetle legs?  Served like crab legs, steamed with hot butter and such.  It'd be like the underdark version of buffalo wings!

 I imagine beetle meat would be one of the main sources of protein down there other than rats.  It'd probably be kinda like fish or maybe octopus or squid depending on how it's served.  Who knows, maybe Agar will enjoy eating them, instead of fearing something similar happening to him.


----------



## Piratecat

It's crunch-dillicious!

They've already left the 'Throat, but there will be other opportunities. I need to find a way to use that.

Re the previous page, thank you for the monsters and ideas! I've got an incredibly important next game, where a bunch of things get decided; after that, depending on what the PCs do, the number of non-undead threats may rise. It's weird having the campaign at a turning point, because it makes it harder to plan ahead.


----------



## Knightfall

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *It's crunch-dillicious!
> 
> They've already left the 'Throat, but there will be other opportunities. I need to find a way to use that.*




Well, you could always wait until the whole White Kingdom thing is over and use it a future adventure.

Has Agar and/or Nolin ever had any dealing with the Society of Sensation?  If so, maybe you could have a 'magical telegram' arrive for one of them from this high-up of the Sensates, asking for the characters help in some important matter.

Might be a good way to get the PCs to Sigil for a little while.  A bit of downtime fun after the quest is over.  Nolin could meet Factol Erin Darkflame Montgomery.  (I think those two who get along famously, if you know what I mean.)  

This could also be a good way to link Sigil and Union, if you and your players decide to go Epic (since they're pretty close).

Hook: A group of low-level sensates want to 'experience' this city of Union they've heard of but don't know how to get there or if they could survive the journey.  Of course, that's part of the thrill.

Halfor Wincet is worried about his daughter, who is a sensate and wants to go, and needs strong heroes to escort her and her friends so they don't get killed.  (This father's love is stronger than his dedication to the faction's principles.)

The Factol may or may not go with the group but even she knows it's better to come out alive, after experiencing so much power.  She also wants to try and set up the Society in Union and recruit sdome of its more 'free-spirited' residents.



Hey, so what do you think?

KF72


----------



## ForceflowX

I was looking around WotC's website, and I found this magic item:



> Faceless Mask: A faceless mask looks like a shallow oval stone bowl with the inverted impression of a face on the inner surface. When held against the face of any creature, the mask adheres to the creature's face and bonds with it, erasing the creature's facial features (eyes, nose, ears, and mouth) completely. Removing a faceless mask is a full-round action that causes great pain (and 2d6 points of subdual damage).
> 
> Although the faceless mask robs the wearer of the ability to hear, see, smell, and taste, and prevents the use of any bite attacks, the benefits granted by the mask outweigh these disadvantages. The wearer is immune to all attacks that require sight, hearing, or a sense of smell (such as gaze attacks, most language-dependent spells, sonic attacks, a harpy's captivating song, darkness, and a ghast's nauseating stench). In addition, the wearer of the mask gains the blindsight ability to a range of 50 feet. Blindsight allows the target to maneuver and fight as well as a sighted creature. Invisibility and darkness are irrelevant to the creature, though blindsight does not allow the creature to notice ethereal beings. The creature does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability.
> 
> Finally, as long as the mask is worn, the wearer is sustained without food, water, and air.
> 
> A faceless mask uses the eye lens/goggle magic item slot when worn.
> 
> Caster Level: 5th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, alter self, blindsight, create food and water, water breathing; Market Price: 74,000 gp; Weight: 1 lb.




Now, just sticking it on a ghoul or something wouldn't be a bad idea, but I'm thinking you stick it on a human prisoner of the ghouls, or someone that is a good guy. Maybe someone that's been wearing the mask so long they don't know they can take it off, and they've been attacked by the ghouls so many times that by now their natural reaction is to attack anyone within range of their blindsight. Throw in a couple of stories about the 'facelss defender', and viola! moral quandry. Do they avoid the area this person is in, or do they attempt to subdue them and take fo the mask? And what would this person do when they regain sight, smell, and hearing? Granted, it's not the creepiest thing in the world (Although seeing a bald, pale human with no ears, eyes, nose or mouth has to be good for a few shudders), but it'd make a good side story.


----------



## Piratecat

ForceflowX, you've given me a cool idea! Thank you.

Quick, I need a monster name for tonight! I'm currently calling them "thurn", but we can do better.

The monster is effectively a wart-covered, elephant-sized gray render with huge bat wings and the BoVD's "corrupted" template attached. They're eeevil, they're tough, they're NOT undead - they're more like vaguely intelligent attack dogs if an attack dog was the size of a rhino - and they need a cool moniker.  Any ideas?

Huge Aberration
HD:  20d10+220 (330)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 30 ft., fly 60’
AC: 25 (-2 size, -1 dex, +18 natural)
Attacks: Bite +27 melee, 2 claws +22 melee or weapon +22/+17/+12
Damage:  Bite 2d10+12 (+ vile), claw 1d10+6 (+ vile) or huge greatsword 2d8+18
Face/Reach: 10 ft. by 5 ft./15 ft. (elephant sized + bat wings)
Special Attacks: Improved grab, rend 3d10+18, Disruptive attack (+10 pts vile) on non-outsiders
Special Qualities: Scent, darkvision, acid immunity, DR 10/+3, Fast Healing 10 pts
Saves: Fort +23, Ref +11, Will +5
Abilities: Str 35 (+12), Dex 8, Con 32 (+11), Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 6
Feats: None
Skills: Hide +12, Spot +17
Treasure: None
Alignment: Lawful Evil

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the thurn must hit with its bite attack.

Rend (Ex): A thurn that gets a hold latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals x3 claw damage.

Disruptive attack: When a corrupted creature successfully hits, it does half its hit dice as additional Vile damage (ie not easily healed.)  In the case of thurnm, this manifest as grotesquely bulging warts and a swelling of the injured area. 

Any ideas?  Thanks!


----------



## Vargo

Attack Rhino? 

Hmm...

Uuurchug  (After the snorting noise it makes through it's nose)

Damn, I gotta get serious...

Beezelbub's Boil-infested Bollix...

No, serious, get serious...

Vile Render?

Geez, I'm having a rough time of it today.  I give.


----------



## WizarDru

How about a Dim Thrasher, or Dimthrash, for short.  Hints at what they are, without actually giving it away.  

Maybe a name that reference's the Throat, somehow?

How about UnderVore?


I'm thrashing.  Not unlike how I do before my game.


----------



## Capellan

And if you want names that are just random syllables thrown together in an attempt to sound cool:

Kreltarg
Burrvash
Grendox  (that one comes from grendel + ox, basically)
Torkril
Grat

Though actually, I quite like "Thurn".  One of the advantages of a short name like that is that it is sounds cool when you add adjectives, to create subspecies.  "Gray Thurn", "Batwinged Thurn", "Spitting Thurn".  'tis all good.  And it lets you give different critters different powers, to shake up your PCs a bit.

Batwinged Thurn might be the standard type, for instance.  Gray Thurn might have only vestigal wings, and much higher intelligence (with or without enlarged craniums, at your decision).  Throw a few psionic powers on the Gray, and bingo!  Leader type.  Spitting thurn, on the other hand, are the same as the normal kind, but add a power like:

Spittle (Ex): the saliva of a Spitting Thurn is caustic.  One every round, it can spit its saliva at any one target within 10'.  The spittle inflicts 2d6 damage (+ vile) with a DC 20 REF save for half damage.

And so on, and so forth ...


----------



## Piratecat

Capellan, you talked me into it! Thurn it is, and I'll save some of those other names for later. I'm so lazy; all I did was take a gray render, boost it to 20 HD, slap a template on it and give it a new appearance. Voila! Instant bad guy.

And you know how long they took to kill the damn thing?

A round and a half.


----------



## Eridanis

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *A round and a half.   *




Ahh, they're just keeping you humble. 

Seriously, though, do you even try to use CRs as they're used in the books? Given that CRs are based on a four-person party with DMG-average treasure, and you're faced with six to seven very experienced players with very powerful characters, it seems like you pretty much have to go by intuition when it comes to scaling combat encounters. What have you found?


----------



## Piratecat

Keep in mind that this encounter was only SUPPOSED to last a few rounds; it had to clearly be deadly, but not be "tricksy." The group really needed something to pound on, and this fit perfectly - as well as setting the stage for something a few months down the line. The thurn was a monster that should have been able to stop almost anyone -- and, as I wanted it to feel, the Defenders were the one exception. 

Matt, I generally approximate CRs. I tend to use intuition and experience a lot more, though. the other problem is that there just isn't that many things in the world that are as tough as the PCs.  That means that I'm forced to use weaker creatures creatively with some deadly combinations and an occasional badass sprinkled in to keep the group honest.  Wulf is bringing more tactical thinking to the group, so I'm changing my style a bit. 

Everyone says the CR system breaks down at high levels, and that's generally true! I'm learning that whoever has prep time has a tremendous advantage, and whoever gets ambushed is very badly off.

Note that although the party is large, they're right where they should be treasure-wise. I was astonished when I did the math.


----------



## Knightfall

*Eversink Query!*

_I posted this over on the Defenders questions thread about a week ago but I'm not sure if you check that thread anymore._

P'Cat, I was wondering if I can get some demographic information about Eversink. I'm using the city on my world and would like to keep the same sort of feeling as you described it in your story hour.

I'm going through some of the PC1.rtf document to glean important information but hope you are willing to post some details about the city's background and history.

Basically, I'm looking for these things, as per the DMG.

Community Wealth and Population
Power Center(s)
Authorities
Key NPCs
Racial Demographics

Plus, I'm real interested in learning more about the power structure of the different Houses listed in PC1.rtf.

Of course, my Eversink will be different in many ways. It's going to be located on an open sea coast but does sit on islands and swampland on both sides of the river I've placed it at the end of.

Any help/infromation you're willing to share would be appreciated.

Cheers!

Robert B., aka Knightfall1972


----------



## Graf

Finally caught up.



			
				Vargo said:
			
		

> *Hey Piratecat, I have no idea how this could be handy, but you might come up with some idea to drive Agar totally out of his mind with this one:
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle....0CRBAEOCFEY?type=ourWorldNews&storyID=2267001 *




Once again proving that nothing is worse than stuff out there in real life (if you look hard enough)

An encounter with these on a plane that he he almost didn't from could _explain_ Agar's 'bug issue'. (maybe he was saved by something with tentacles starting the love affair that continues to this day). Now I'm just rambling though.



			
				Piratecat said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Oh God. You're a genius. You just solved a major problem for me.
> 
> Yay! *



I didn't think that you were a bad person until I saw this. Now I think you may be. What kind of problem is solved by thousands of paralytic flesh eating insects?

[Mechanics for this sort of thing are aways tricky for me. Instead of making PCs save lots of times I'd set a DC based on the amount of armor worn, with a save every round some unfortunate is inside the cloud.]

[edit = html]


----------



## Spatzimaus

Graf said:
			
		

> *What kind of problem is solved by thousands of paralytic flesh eating insects?*




Obesity?

(More generally, what kind of problem *ISN'T* solved by thousands of paralytic flesh-eating insects?)

You know, the whole Akin's Throat thing was fun, and it got me thinking.  The members of this board can come up with some pretty creative stuff when they really try.  What'd be neat is to see an entire campaign setting constructed by the board members, as an alternative to the usual FR/Grayhawk variants.  This campaign seems a perfect base for something like that; throw in a few dozen custom spells, and you could publish the whole thing up.  Who here WOULDN'T want the Complete Guide to Spira?


----------



## Piratecat

There is an "EN World City" construction going on in the Plots & Places forum right now.

*The next big task:*  what kind of cool stuff would you find in a kuo toa city? I want to culturally differentiate it from anywhere else they've been, and I'd _really_ love ideas.


----------



## Vargo

There's always this song for inspiration: http://www.com-www.com/musiclyrics/addottakip-wetdream.html


----------



## WizarDru

How about making the city amphibious in some capacity, and take advantage of the Kuo-Toa's natural abilities (with no handicap-accessible routes)?

For example:  place half the city above water, and the other half beneath, with the assumption that certain places require you to traverse the two, without any warning or consideration to convienence to non-water breathers.  Have above ground components that require leaping, or stairs that are too high to be comfortable or even usable as stairs without significant jumping ability.


Other thoughts: use not just aquatic designs, but 'cave' aquatic designs and deep-deep-sea concepts.  For example, perhaps lighting in the underwater portion of the city is provided by lights made from the lures of giant neon kingfishers, fashioned into hanging lights or streetlamps.  Perhaps transportation is provided by giant blind hermit-crab 'buses', with oddly worked transport shells.  Perhaps buildings are made of material that is translucent but hazy (like some of the creatures found in the darkest trenches of the oceans), and concepts of personal privacy are affected due to it..perhaps even are highly adapted life forms that have a symbiotic relationship with their kuo-toan occupants.

This is kinda fun.


----------



## JacktheRabbit

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Capellan, you talked me into it! Thurn it is, and I'll save some of those other names for later. I'm so lazy; all I did was take a gray render, boost it to 20 HD, slap a template on it and give it a new appearance. Voila! Instant bad guy.
> 
> And you know how long they took to kill the damn thing?
> 
> A round and a half.   *




What did you expect? 

It is a 20 hitdice creature with only a +5 will save.


----------



## Eridanis

Kua-toa city: The first thing that springs to mind is to tweak the architecture to take advantage of neutral buoyancy. If the city is underground, have buildings be on the ceiling as well as the floor. Think of a house built in a conical shape, like a stalactite. Someone could swim into the front door, which would be at the point of the stalactite, and walk/swim up to the larger levels above it. If it is in the open ocean, have some form of magic cast to let the buildins levitate at a certain level above the seafloor, and its buildings.

Doors made of seaweed. Everything's kinda rounded, as if flowing water had eroded it over time. Think arcs instead of lines. That might have an efect on how their language sounds, too.


----------



## Bronz Dragon

FOOD!

Fish, fish, seaweed, fish, fish, fish, fish.

Fish fried in fish fat, something that looks like sushi until you realize that the 'rice' is actually maggots or some other pale fleshy creepy-crawly (tastes delicious, until you find out what it is..) octopus boiled in kelp broth, stingray shish-kebabs, baked anenome, discount sturgeon steaks(yum, bottomfeeders), fish liver oil, kelp wine, concentrated plankton stew, crabby (literally) shopkeeps, clams and other shellfish galore.

hrm..  that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Wizardru's ideas are awesome, I especially love the hermit crab bus.  Architecture should have any even more organic feel to it than Akin's throat, IMHO.  No sharp corners, except maybe the odd 'horn' or superhard stratta, which has resisted the centuries of erosion.  Entrances ought to be oddly formed and of wildly varying sizes, and floors a bit uneven and possibly ridged in places.  Is it on or near the surface/shore?  if so, the tide could come in and out regularly, making some places that were only accessible by swimming before either easier or downright impossible to reach, depending on it's relation to the surface of the water.  (Defenders swim to the mayor's office, just at the surface of the water, for a meeting and an hour later, they walk out to find a  10' drop to a shallow pool full of sharp coral.)

  Natural defenses for this place might include a corral reef just inside the entranceway, as well as awakened deep sea predators, who have a non-aggression pact with the city.  Dire morray eels on leashes police the lower underwater portions of the city, and flying fish courier messages from below to those living 'high on the dry side'.  At night, 'torchmen'  wander around and feed globes of glowing plankton hanging on the wall, which glow and swirl, making odd patterns on the walls.  Schools of livestock fish are penned and herded in bubble cages, forcing them into compact formations at low tide, perfect for easy catching.  Wizards could have fishy familiars that float in a little bubble of water at their shoulders(a lionfish would be really neat).  

  Hope that helps a bit  

_EDIT -- I didn't steal your ideas Eridanis!  Damn this ESP!_


----------



## Painfully

cultural differences?  They wouldn't use money for one.  They value individuals based on what they are capable of doing, so athletics or contests might be very important for those seeking to gain status and rank.  That means their king might be the most athletic individual of their society.  

PCs looking to interact might have to first gain some respect by winning a contest of some kind.  Spell casters might be viewed as second-rate citizens despite their powers.  It's big fish eats small fish, after all.

The ultimate punishment might be to become food for a large and powerful beast--preferably, something with lots of teeth.  Or maybe food for a pack of jellyfish creatures.  Nothing is worse than watching somebody not be able to defend himself, and get eaten alive--you can watch them as they slowly digest too, since the jellyfish are see-through.


----------



## Corran

Making the Kuo Toan city culturally different from what the defenders have seen so far: give it an oriental flavor.

I think that meshes very well with the Kuo Toa's. I can really see an underwater city with simple buildings that haven't got much in the way of walls (just enough to keep out swimming/drifting things).

A Kuo Toa Samurai would be a lovely sight. ;-)

Make the Whips either Shamans or Shugenja's, which ever one works best for you.

Use Sohei's as guards and we're halfway through the Oriental Adventures book. ;-)

You could use the Kuo Toa's trade with the Drow to have some Drow show up (although so far we haven't seen any I think, have they been displaced by the ghouls?).

But, a couple of questions: Do you need any Kuo Toa's as potential enemies or do you just need the city as a 'neutral' setting.

And, is the city in salt or fresh water? I'm assuming salt water, but it's nice to know for sure, otherwise all those sharks will be having a blub of a time. ;-)

More ideas later.


----------



## Kaodi

*Kuo-Toa Defenses*

The first thing that comes to mind in that their defenses would consist of a lot of very narrow choke points, ones which they could use their ridiculous escape artist abilities to get through where the PCs would have trouble. 
The second thing is... don't kuo-toa use coral, like the other species? I can't remember if someone already mentioned something like this. They might have coral farms like we have our farms, so the natural extension is, what does a kuo-toa scarecrow look like? And more important, how much damage does is dish out? hehehehe.... mwahahahahaha! This definately did come up in an earlier post, combined with something new. We stuff clothes with straw, so might they not stuff a giant lobster carapace with seaweed and kelp? I'm sure you can some up with some twisted way to present that...


----------



## Graf

some random ideas (do I have any other sort of idea?)
I have trouble shaking my deep-ones imagry so I see a lot of sort of decayed, subservient, alien, cult type religious stuff. YMMV.

[the problem with some of this is that it's sort of internal cultural stuff... it's kind of tricky to show off deep internal emotions of bit characters in a RPG]

*biology influences mindset*
*no family structure with a paired male & female. eggs are kept in communal areas. weird mating rituals are a must.... males fight in ritual combat for the right to "donate" to the next generation.
*so there are no families as we think of them and there is little incentive for a K-t to teach another K-t anything. An individual is always alone within K-t society
*these eggs are all kept together in big clumps and their keepers "sing" to them. K-t remember what they've heard after they've hatched. In effect an egg group is born with a genetic memory and common heritage (thus making them relatively easy to brainwash and control). 
*most K-t learn very little after they have hatched, their rulers encourage this tendancy to keep them pliable and controlable. they've never been to a "school" most can't read, and have never learned anything. they aren't oriented toward aquiring new information.

*a culture based rooted in fear.* basically unlike most societies K-t don't think of themselves as being great and powerful*. they know they're weaker and slower and dumber than the things that live around them. they are lucky to be living in a "free" city and not being slaves to the drow/abolith/mind flayers/whoever.  -- kind of like the weak-minded Gollum's attitude in the two towers.
I like the idea that thousands of K-t tadpoles hatch in these big pits but only a few survive. The rest are fed to some kind of holy creature. The few that do survive to grow up remember the terrible screams of those that didn't make it and are forever marked by this deep seated fear-bordering-on-paranoia.
*  = I think just about every group in the real world and 95% of races in D&D are convinced that they are, for some reason, superior.  So I think this would make an interesting change. 

I also like the idea of their society being sort of like america during the red scare with this giant K-t preist-god stirring them up about the Aboliths who are lurking out of sight always ready to control them. You know the priests are always looking for Aboleth-slaves and race-traitors who want to sell their race back into slaver. 
_"An abolith mind-slave can't be reasoned with. It's obsessed with enslaving other Kua-toa and bringing them back to it's masters. You're quivering, Klib-ribt, are you... hiding something from me?"_

*Social structure*
I see a few ways the society could be broken up
1. chaotic -- there is no social structure, per se. Individuals are just forced to do things by those who are more powerful
2. born into a caste -- different K-t "egg clumps" are sung to in different ways by the breeders.... movement through castes is unheard of (like the movie Antz without the happy ending). castes have a sort of compraderie and are arranged in a heirarchical manner (priests at the top, then warriors, pesants etc.)
3. egg-families --- K-t are organized into a clan-type structure. each clan has it's own breeders, rulers, warriors, priests, etc. The clans have a complex and shifting relationship with each other. 
Within the clan you have different clutches (K-t who hatched from the same clump of eggs) who are all the same age and become a powergroup within a given clan. Kind of like people who entered a big company at the same time together (if you're familiar with that kind of environment.
4. clutch-brothers, the smaller egg-groups (your egg-brothers and sisters) are the major forces within society. Basically it's a society composed of many many 20-30 individual groups. Very chaotic, very tribal.
5. (This is probably the oddest, and the one that's most saterical of the real world). The K-ts are divided into different groups based on physical characteristics like skin patter. Some K-ts have little freckle like spots, others have larger patches, or stripe type vertical markings or what have you. These patterns appear more or less randomly and shortly after hatching the egg-groups break (or are broken) apart and the K-ts live with those of similar patterns.


city layout stuff
*I like the tides idea a lot, but instead of regular tides I would think about making it more complex (almost to the point that an outsider just won't understand the cycle at all). As different chambers build up above the city and on the surface at different rates you can have some extreme and chaotic tidal movements. Maybe the Kua-toa control these and have crude 'dam' type structures. Or maybe this is like their weather and periodically powerful violent current surge through and destroy buidlings and people. (this would help feed the fear/paranoia ethos I mentioned earlier if you go that route).
*GARBAGE Collection. I love the idea that there are a bunch of K-t who just hang out where the water flows and pick up garbage the flows down from the surface. They trade extensively and may have something neat (that they don't know is powerful, useful or interesting).
*definitely use the escape artist stuff, especially in structures built to be defensible
*I think you could do a lot with their vision and style of movement. A leader always wants people he doesn't trust to sit to his side so he can see them clearly. Furthermore if they try to do anything he can leap forward (and away) easily. 
*the K-t cohort seems to have a very jumping oriented combat style. I could see concepts like "running away" or "standing your ground" as being completely foreign to them. Fighting properly involves a lot of movement, gaining the high ground and jumping at someone, etc.
*to continue with the vision thing, they probably don't like long stretches of hallway (because they can't see far forward well) and are extremely comfortable with hair pin turns and corridors that turn so much that they almost double back.
*no stairs. lots of ledges for jumping, domiciles (and buildings in general) are probably built on a much more vertical type of mindset. holes in the ceiling instead of stairs (croak before jumping of course)
*fast moving jets  of water take messengers and people in a hurry through tight tunnels and let them get around the city quickly. (just don't bump the walls... )
*art or writing that is set up for people who can't see directly in front of them (a book which is like a circle with a hole in it. You stick your head partway in and each word in a sentence is on the far side of from the prior. (OK that probably doesn't make sense but I'm flagging a bit here). basically you alternate reading each side of the reading-object word-by-word. In addition to being easy and natural for a K-t it's tough for a humanoid to easily do (since you would have to keep moving your head around inside to see every word clearly).
*If their vision is permenently bubble-eyed a lot of their art and scuplture is probably similar.  (re-orienting their heads allows them vistas of perspective that other species can't experience or appriciate).


little bits
*jelly fish defenders, I'm actually imagining more like squid who can squirt along really quickly but which are translucent and have stingers. I like the idea of something that can move 200 once every few rounds.
*instead of physical barriers (like seaweed) for doors (which would flow around in the currents) maybe they have some kind of bubble-jets in front of entry ways of buildings to obscure sight
*weird religious moaning echoes throughout the water all the time. (creepy or dumb depending on how good the description is)
*water in certain chambers/areas is laced with somthing poisonous to non-Kua-toa
Ok. So they're immune to posion, I didn't have the mon man at work. So this is pretty reasonable
*a complex which is a variety of submerged & partially submerged and non-submerged rooms. The air is extremely poisonous; Kuo-toa know to stay underwater in these rooms but surface invaders might not figure out.good probably as an outer area threatened by drow.
I still like idea but since they're totally immune to poison they've probably just poisoned or tainted everything they could without worrying about having safe entry or exit areas.
*a balista that people or messages are attached to and then fired through the water (an alternative to the water jet's system).

What kind of mounts do K-t use? 
I would tend toward giant frogs or snails (for carrying really heavy loads up veritcal surfaces).

I'm tapped out (and it's a three day vacation here!). Hope the rambling was of use or else set off other people's idea machines.

have a good weekend y'all 
(times being what they are it's tough but anyway)

edits = some particularly egregious sentence fragments, html.


----------



## Knightfall

Corran said:
			
		

> *You could use the Kuo Toa's trade with the Drow to have some Drow show up (although so far we haven't seen any I think, have they been displaced by the ghouls?).*




You know, instead of drow, he should use deep drow from FFGs Seafarer's Handbook (pg 89 - 90).  In fact, that books entire Undersea Adventures chapter could be highly useful to you P'Cat.

Another great resurce is the *Aquatic Template* that was accidentally ommited from _D&D Savage Species_.  The entire template can be found on the 'unoffical' errata thread in the WotC Savage Species forum.  (Darn thing won't load at the moment.  Once I get to it then I'll post a link here.)

Applying that template to some land based creatures could give the k-t some interesting mounts and/or allies.

Also, if you want something slightly different for the Defenders to encounter while visiting the k-t city then check out this creation of mine in the Creature Catalog/Homebrew forum.

Kraken Lord
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?threadid=41738

You might also want to check out some of my strange templated humanoids inspired by _D&D Savage Species_.

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?threadid=41720

Imagine a band of insectile gnolls visiting (or attacking) the k-t city while the Defenders are there.  Agar would have fits, unless his phobia is completely 'beetle-oriented' and not 'insect-oriented'.

The reptilian elf would likely be disturbing to all of them, not to mention the Nom-Ti.  

Cheers!

KF72


----------



## Eridanis

Here's an .rtf file of that template.


----------



## WizarDru

Another nice set piece to add is perhaps human wreckage from above, used in (to the party) confusing and incorrect ways.  Depending on where this city is, they might have, for example the greater part of the remains of a sunken galleon, reconditioned and placed vertically for some reason, such as a prison for non-kuo-toa, a 'greenhouse' (or an 'airhouse' perhaps?) or perhaps even as a zoo for surface creatures.

For city defenses, I would recommend my personal favorite, the Horseshoe Crab, modified and enhanced.  I mean, just look at him! , he *looks* like a tank, doesn't he?  Able to survive extreme temperatures and survive, 200 million years old, and just plain cool.  Did I mention he eats some jellyfish (and by extension, Fluumphs)?  Stat him up!

Have the city surrounded by silt fields, which hide things like giant eels and crabs that will emerge and snatch at intruders.

For that matter, the undersea world has some truly alien and bizarre looking things.  Sea Anonemes and Sea Cucumbers, for example, are just _weird-looking_.  Use that.  Although Agar should probably be given a chance to find it all perfectly natural.  Poor little fella needs an edge, what with all these darned bugs running around.


Shameless plug:  I'm doing more work on my game, again, and soliciting ideas.  Far be it from me to not take advantage of the finest minds ENWorld has to offer.  Those so interested can browse over here.  Any suggestions are encouraged.


----------



## Bronz Dragon

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *For that matter, the undersea world has some truly alien and bizarre looking things.  Sea Anonemes and Sea Cucumbers, for example, are just weird-looking.  Use that.  Although Agar should probably be given a chance to find it all perfectly natural.  Poor little fella needs an edge, what with all these darned bugs running around.*



Should have an octopus swim by and have Agar make a will save not to fall in love..   Proty will be so jealous!


----------



## Urbanmech

Everyone knows that the kou-toa worship the diety with the most fun to say name ever, Blibdoolpoolp!  You have to leave that in, plus make them burble or make strange watery noises when they speak.

Looking over the kou-toa racial abilites the immunity to poison, paralysis and holding sticks out.  Maybe the Kou-toa have raised a special breed of gelatinous cube that doesn't have the acid ability but still has the paralysis effect.  The kou-toa could use these to create areas protected from most outsiders.  

The kou-toans ability to see through figments could also be used to their advantage by using illusion magic to make hiding places or secret viewing rooms.  

The kou-toa have always struck me as being very much inspired by Lovecraft, so why not have them have a pet Shoggoth that they use for city defense.  Just grab the stats from the d20 Call of Cthulhu.


----------



## Kaodi

*The Day of Reclamation*

Here is something new I have been just thinking of:

Once per Kuo-Toan month, a great ceremony for coming of age is held in a large room high above the temple. On one of the walls, there would be a mural depicting the surface world, and in it there would be a sun/moon of luminescient fungus. The other key thing is that the room would be filled with air. So, where was I... oh, yes, coming of age. So, once a month, the young Kuo-Toans on the verge of adulthood are guided into the room by the whips, and in a great ceremony overseen by the high priest(ess), they partake in ritual combat, either against one another (non-fatal) or, when they can get them, surface worlders (extremely fatal). This ceremony, taking place of the monthly Day of Reclamation, determines who is fit to take a place among Kuo-Toan society and to endeavour to retake their ancestral surface homes.

I hope this is something along the lines of what you were looking for, PKitty.


----------



## ForceflowX

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *ForceflowX, you've given me a cool idea! Thank you.*




*Scurries off to make a 'I helped shape the world of the DoD and all I got was this lousy tshirt (And I had to make it myself)' shirt*

Hrm... gonna be a tight fit, getting all of that on there...


----------



## Piratecat

You folk delight me.

Hey, know what I thought of? When thinking of kuo toa as an oriental-style culture, I remembered that the gogglers can supposedly see into nearby planes of existence. So I thought, "What would kuo toa art look like?"  And I think it's all extra-planar.

Just think of it. The party waits in a cavern, very plain. Then someone casts true seeing, and suddenly amazingly artistic sculptures and patterns on both the astral and the ethereal swim into view, changing and interacting as you focus on different planes. For some reason, I just love the idea!


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot

Oooh, that sounds very nice.  Perhaps have them comment about dimension locking the area due to etheral filchers prowling around or something 

Heh, has the son of Toraz shown up again yet since his stay from the desert (I recall something dealing with Dylrath)?  I think it would be interesting for him to meet the defenders again, perhaps if Toraz was allied with Imbindarla and now the son would be going through his 'rebellious years'.  I dunno just a funny thought of him running from his father's assassins and seeking the Defender's help.


----------



## Kaodi

*Kuo-Toa Art*

That is a sweet idea, PKitty. Looking back at what I wrote before, it would be neat to have that effect in the ceremonial chamber I mentioned... with normal vision, you just see a circular patch of fungus high on the wall, but with extravision you see a breathtaking mural of the surface world, to make it extra relevant maybe even have it be someplace the PCs are aquaintted with (though there would be a difference accouting for time). 

Even if you don't care for the whole coming of age thing though, I still thinking pictures of the surface would be fairly prominent in their society... after all, the surface is one of their motivations...


----------



## Bronz Dragon

ForceflowX said:
			
		

> *
> 
> *Scurries off to make a 'I helped shape the world of the DoD and all I got was this lousy tshirt (And I had to make it myself)' shirt*
> 
> Hrm... gonna be a tight fit, getting all of that on there...  *



You should sell those off the ENWorld site


----------



## Piratecat

*Re: Kuo-Toa Art*



			
				Kaodi said:
			
		

> *after all, the surface is one of their motivations... *




The kuo toa? It is?  *blink*  I'm going back to read my old monster descriptions, but I don't think I'll use that aspect if I'm mis-remembering. _Someone_ has to like living underground, I figure.


----------



## Piratecat

Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> *Heh, has the son of Toraz shown up again yet since his stay from the desert (I recall something dealing with Dylrath)?  I think it would be interesting for him to meet the defenders again, perhaps if Toraz was allied with Imbindarla and now the son would be going through his 'rebellious years'.  I dunno just a funny thought of him running from his father's assassins and seeking the Defender's help. *




Quit reading my freakin' notebook!  There's a twist, though....


----------



## Spatzimaus

*Re: Kuo-Toa Art*



			
				Kaodi said:
			
		

> * to make it extra relevant maybe even have it be someplace the PCs are aquaintted with (though there would be a difference accouting for time)*




Like Eversink?  Didn't the Kuo-Toa have something to do with that city (remembering that whole "world without disease" vision thing), or was that the Sahaugin?


----------



## Ashy

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *You folk delight me.
> 
> Hey, know what I thought of? When thinking of kuo toa as an oriental-style culture, I remembered that the gogglers can supposedly see into nearby planes of existence. So I thought, "What would kuo toa art look like?"  And I think it's all extra-planar.
> 
> Just think of it. The party waits in a cavern, very plain. Then someone casts true seeing, and suddenly amazingly artistic sculptures and patterns on both the astral and the ethereal swim into view, changing and interacting as you focus on different planes. For some reason, I just love the idea! *




Awesomely cool idea, PC!!!


----------



## Vargo

Don't remember where I saw this, but...

Somebody dropped a post about Biblooboboop (or what ever her name is) being an insane goddess - that she was in the decline of her power, the priests knew this, and it pretty much affected the psyche of the whole race to the point where they were pretty much all continually depressed.  Not "Deep Gnome" depressed - just completely bummed out.

Anybody else remember this?


----------



## Knightfall

Vargo said:
			
		

> *Don't remember where I saw this, but...
> 
> Somebody dropped a post about Biblooboboop (or what ever her name is) being an insane goddess - that she was in the decline of her power, the priests knew this, and it pretty much affected the psyche of the whole race to the point where they were pretty much all continually depressed.  Not "Deep Gnome" depressed - just completely bummed out.
> 
> Anybody else remember this? *




Hmm, a grung rock band full of kuo toas.  Heh... Nirvana of the Deep.

{EDIT}

Their lead singer could be a bard named Kelp Coralbane.  

Ok, I'm done now...


----------



## Nail

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *...... Then someone casts true seeing, and suddenly amazingly artistic sculptures and patterns on both the astral and the ethereal swim into view, changing and interacting as you focus on different planes. For some reason, I just love the idea! *



Confirmed:  Cool.


----------



## Priest

PC I dont know if this thought has come to you or if you'd even care to try it but.....


While looking throught Traps & Treachery I I came across the old classic shoots and ladder trap that spits you out into a 10 ft. by 10 ft. chamber filled with neck deep water in the water a number of zombies lie in wait for the unlucky adventurer who just so happens to trip the spot....

On to thought two a large water creature with your true ghoul template (say a Kraken) in a larger room filled with more water (mayhaps even an underground grotto that leads into some endless expanse of underdark ocean....

Next lose the shoot and ladder and make it a teleport with out error trap or any number of instant there traps (such as a mass teleport keyed to a 10ft area directly in front of a door handle for instance)  anyway the possibilities are extremely endless


----------



## maddman75

Lots of good stuff here.  I really like the extra-planar art, the merchants catching drift from the surface, the keepers singing to the eggs to program them, and the areas that are partially submerged.

I'd suggest a pillar-like structure, with there being both stairs and water filled chutes.  Walk up the stairs, swim down the chute, like an escalator.

Oh, and if any of your players have young kids, you *have* to include kuo-toa going out with nets to go jellyfishing....

Edit - almost forgot.  The merchant/scavengers could be hotly debating how much a small statue of a surface holy man would be worth.  Surely its a holy relic of some kind


----------



## Eccles

PC,

I just had a thought, which wouldn't work with my players, but I'm sure will do great with yours...

You've mentioned in the past that the Defenders have been watched in combat. Is it not also fair to say that they've probably been watched at other times, too?

In which case, when the ghouls actually attack, they're most likely to capitalise on the Defenders' psychological weaknesses. (And you just know your players would play along and make it so much more amusing).

For instance Agar's aversion to insects; if either a swarm of beetles preceded the attack, or if each enemy was coated with beetles, then Agar wouldn't have a clue who to attack (as they'd all be equally terrifying)...

The simplest _Legend Lore_ about Nolin would provide his phoenix background, together with plenty of detail of his past indiscretions. Result? Either cold-based attacks, telekinesis to make the most of it when he explodes, or all the attacking ghouls _polymorphed_ to look like his past lovers.

Malachite's obsession with slaying the undead is a weakness in itself. Galthia could be distracted with visions of Illithids backed with a few psionic attacks.

Just a few suggestions (which you've probably already considered) to make it look like the White Kingdom's been doing its research!


----------



## Piratecat

Fine ideas!

I've actually been saving such... personal... attacks for the upcoming "special forces" ghoul team. Some of these ideas are excellent. Mmm.. maybe make Agar's allies appear as giant beetles? 

So many good possibilities.


----------



## Capellan

Hmm.  From the tenor of recent posts in the story hour, I'm wondering if someone is planning a 'requiem for a god' ...

Though given this is Piratecat's game, it could be something far more inventive 



Note to self: must remember to add Piratecat to list of personalities to stalk at GenCon ...


----------



## Eccles

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Fine ideas!
> 
> I've actually been saving such... personal... attacks for the upcoming "special forces" ghoul team. Some of these ideas are excellent. Mmm.. maybe make Agar's allies appear as giant beetles?
> 
> So many good possibilities. *




Of course if any of the party gets hurt in an encounter featuring beetles from now on, I'm going to feel bad...


----------



## Bronz Dragon

> _Originally Posted by Sialia_
> *
> ...Also--and I'm not really sure whether it had any bearing on the previous campaign or not--the one piece of history we knew about at the outset was that some "Mage Wars" had happened a long while back. Arcade was fond of reading about them. Dylrath once lost his mirror in one of the many wild magic zones left over as a result of that terrible time. And Lord Crafter Ioun (who we met much much later) had been a participant in them.
> There was never any mention of "golden ages" or anything like that, but we were all sure glad we weren't alive during the "bad old days" when there were dangerous things like Mage Wars, and the Tyranny of the Academy of Flamecraft, and things like that. *



please, Please, PLEASE! let them have to go back in time!!


----------



## maddman75

Or better yet, send them back in time and trick them into *starting* the mage wars.


----------



## Graf

Bronz Dragon said:
			
		

> *
> please, Please, PLEASE! let them have to go back in time!! *




Time travel is totally bogus dude.
sorry, I couldn't help it.

It would be kind of funny if Ioun actually remembered them from his past but was staying totally mum on the subject.


----------



## Derulbaskul

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Fine ideas!
> (snip)  maybe make Agar's allies appear as giant beetles? (snip)
> *




Or throw the ghoul template on the scarab swarm from Fiend Folio.


----------



## Knightfall

Graf said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Time travel is totally bogus dude.
> sorry, I couldn't help it.
> 
> It would be kind of funny if Ioun actually remembered them from his past but was staying totally mum on the subject. *




P is for Paradox.  

Unless you're saying P'Cat, P.Kitty or Mr. P. Cat.  I could go on but that would make me too much of a Defenders Fanboy!

Suggestion: Here's a twisted idea I thought of while skimming the most recent posts.  Most noteably this quote from Eccles:



> The simplest _Legend Lore_ about Nolin would provide his phoenix background, together with plenty of detail of his past indiscretions. Result? Either cold-based attacks, telekinesis to make the most of it when he explodes, or all the attacking ghouls polymorphed to look like his past lovers.




Does the phoenix being imbeded into Nolin's soul mean that he is considered a native Outsider?  If so, imagine his horror is someone tries to summon him.  Pehaps an irate marilith.  (Was she completely destroyed or only banished?  I can't remember.)

Or perhaps Nolin's new 'drow girlfriend' wants another night of lovin' with the flaming bard and she kept a scrap of his tunic or something like that.  Having a personal item would allow her to easily summon him with the right type of preparation.

Malachite would say 'I told you so' but with more stoic drama.  

Cheers!

KF72


----------



## Eccles

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Does the phoenix being imbeded into Nolin's soul mean that he is considered a native Outsider?  If so, imagine his horror is someone tries to summon him.  Pehaps an irate marilith.  (Was she completely destroyed or only banished?  I can't remember.)
> 
> KF72 *




Class concept. And even if Nolin doesn't count as an Outsider, Tao certainly does. Pay the darn unicorn-woman back for the fight for the Belt of Giant Strength...

_Magic Circle against Good_ or _Law_ would be pretty effective to protect the ghouls from a fair chunk of the party. It would have the benefit of totally excluding any affected Outsiders, native or otherwise. 

If Tao (or any others) could be summoned away from the fight at the moment of greatest need then it would annoy the party no end! Not to mention the possibility that Tao could be summoned into somewhere deeply unpleasant. Either an ambush or the Elemental Plane of Fire spring to mind...

Actually, the Para-Elemental plane of Acid and Ooze might be more annoying. Whilst the end of the summon returns the creature in good health, what happens to their arms and equipment is a bit more open to debate.


----------



## WizarDru

In the hopes of tapping the brains of those masters of monster advancement, I put forth this beastie, in the hopes that my peers can tell me if I advanced it correctly, it's proper CR, and even find if it's of some use to PC and his crew.  

Meet *Bzzzzt.*

*Bzzzt*; _Behir/Air Elemental: CR 12?; Size G; HD 27d10+243; hp 399; Init +1; Spd 40 ft, climb 15 ft, fly 100 ft.; AC 21 (10 Touch); BAB +25; Atk: +43 melee (2d6 + 14, Bite), +26/+26/+26/+26/+26 melee (1d6 + 12, Claws); SA Air Mastery, Breath weapon, improved grab, swallow whole, constrict 2d12+14; SQ Electricity immunity, Poison Immunity, Sleep Immunity, Paralysis Immunity, Not subject to critical hits, Darkvision 60', DR 10/+1, scent, can’t be tripped; AL N; SV Fort +20, Ref +21, Will +11; Str 34, Dex 20, Con 25, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 12.
Languages spoken: Common
Skills and Feats: Climb +18, Hide +5, Spot +7; Cleave, Power Attack, Breath Weapon, Constrict, Improved Grab, Scent, Swallow Whole, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Blind-Fight, Flyby Attack._

He's a Behir, advanced to 27 HD (from 9) and then had the Air Elemental template from Dragon 307 applied to him.  His CR seems off, but I'm not really sure.  If it's not, then I need to buff it up some more.  Any suggestions along those lines would certainly be appreciated.


----------



## Piratecat

Before I look at Bzzzt (who looks extremely cool), let me say that I've thought about time travel. In particular, I've thought about something similar to that cool Ravenloft module where the same house exists in three separate time periods. It might be neat to go back to before Aleax and Morak et al tried to tackle the ghouls. I haven't found a good way to fit it in, yet - but I'm working on it.


----------



## Kugar

Time travel... Hmmm...Tricky to pull off well.  Here is something I did in one of my campaigns that involved undead and time travel, I know it's not what you are looking for per say but it was cool. Read twice for full affect: 

Start with 1 alive NPC(aNPC) and 1 undead badguy(UBG).  
1) UBG is very aloof - but cocky and sends very strange things at the party (reason is he is manipulating events as he remembers they went the first time)
aNPC - reacts normal.

2) UBG manipulates party to time travel trap he has spent a long time designing.  aNPC gets sent into distant past.

3) aNPC hates past and blames heroes.

4) aNPC uses knowledge of future to gain power, and tries hard to keep the past the way he remembers it.  Avoids all type of urges to proverbially "Kill Hitler"

5) aNPC dies and arises from death in undeath.  Becomes UBG

6) UBG pays particular attention to events surrounding aNPC and its ancestors.  Moves behind the scenes to make sure aNPC is in a position to fall for time trap and not killed.

7) After aNPC is sent to the past, UBG is totally free and no longer a slave to fate.  For them the transformation can only happens after it is revealed, but the UBG has been harboring a grudge for millennium. 

I did this with the FR lich guy and it worked very well - plus it does not lead to time paradoxes, but makes the PCs more personally involved with the UBG. I can see it now - 
From the shadows a decayed form of a gnome shambles forward.  As it claps its hands, flakes of black flesh and maggots fall to the ground.  Its head cocks at an impossible angle and you feel heat from the green flames in its dead eye sockets burn your soul.  Without opening it's mouth it speaks in a raspy voice - "Congratulation! You made it here! And in a grand manner - just as I remembered.  Unfortunately, you are no longer valuable to me.  I have waited sooo long to destroy you.  Don't tell me you have forgotten me already? You don't remember you old friend Priggle? Just as well, it seems the rest of the world forgot about me too ..."


----------



## Mathew_Freeman

Kugar said:
			
		

> *I can see it now -
> From the shadows a decayed form of a gnome shambles forward.  As it claps its hands, flakes of black flesh and maggots fall to the ground.  Its head cocks at an impossible angle and you feel heat from the green flames in its dead eye sockets burn your soul.  Without opening it's mouth it speaks in a raspy voice - "Congratulation! You made it here! And in a grand manner - just as I remembered.  Unfortunately, you are no longer valuable to me.  I have waited sooo long to destroy you.  Don't tell me you have forgotten me already? You don't remember you old friend Priggle? Just as well, it seems the rest of the world forgot about me too ..." *




Now for sheer entertainment value, this would just be the funniest thing in the world! Roflmao! 

Although if I was you, Piratecat, and I pulled this trick, I think I'd run for the hills afterwards...


----------



## justinsluder

*Time Travel*

Dungeon # 86 has an adventure called "Anvil of Time"  It's a dragonlance adventure, but could be modified with minimal effort.  If you want more info about this adventure let me know.


----------



## WizarDru

Well, without knowing exactly what sort of Spira-shattering events are occuring, I'll put forth the idea of Divine-mucking about.  We know that something big is coming.  Such things have pre-quakes and after-shocks.  If the players are willing to deal with the lingering temporal effects of a little planar hopping, then they won't be too suprised at other side-effects from Big Mojo (tm).

Let's say that Imbrindarla's going through birth-pangs*, for example, or that her son is releasing waves of temporal instability.  Perhaps Calphas has a lesson he wants to impart in his typical distanced fashion, and shifts the characters appropriately, but as dispasionate observers..or worse, are perceived as the enemy by the heroes they've come to observe!

(*- Shudder).

To take another tact, let's consider some other underdark candidates.  Perhaps they stumble across a bizarre, pulsating brain-like object that's an artifact left behind by a retreating mind-flayer town or attack-force.  A huge memory-unit that was simply too problematic to take along, and was left behind.  It could be a powerful trap, or malfunctioning, or any number of things that could create the effect desired.  Imagine if most of the party is captured in it's shared illusion, and then TomTom returns and stares at the transfixed heroes.  "Uh, guys?  What are we looking at, exactly?"  

Heck, even Stone Bear's ancestors might be the source of the interference.  You could do a lot with them, too.


----------



## Bronz Dragon

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *...let me say that I've thought about time travel. In particular, I've thought about something similar to that cool Ravenloft module where the same house exists in three separate time periods. It might be neat to go back to before Aleax and Morak et al tried to tackle the ghouls. I haven't found a good way to fit it in, yet - but I'm working on it.   *



Sweet!  

Might I suggest ancient relic being hawked by some greasy vendor, who doesn't realize what it is?

Agar could take one look and go "WOW!!  I haven't seen mojo like that since.. since..  EVER!"  

then someone presses a button and POOF!  they're stuck back in olden times..  instant diversion from the white kingdom


----------



## Knightfall

Ok, P'Cat have you ever seen that episode of ST:TNG where Picard is simutaneously in the past,  present and future?  Q puts him in that position and Picard has to think in a non-linar fashion.

Do that to them! 

Either that, or take a page from the recent War of Souls Dragonlance trilogy.  *Not really spoilers but you've been warned anyway...*




One character, NPC, trapped through time with alternate versions of the Defenders and other NPCs.  That character would have to restore the timeline or go back to die in the past.  *Minor spoiler over.*

Or you could have all the Defenders trapped in an alternate reality, where there isn't any easy way back, and maybe this reality is the real reality and stuff like that there.

Or maybe Alix could have a less dark twin in an alternate reality.  But a reality in the past.  Just imagine Alix as a devote paladin of Aeos... just imagine!

Or maybe Dylrath through time from the future, to warn the Defenders of what may come.



I'm done now.

KF72


----------



## Greybar

Okay, so I can't find the stats for Klixxit, even though I seem to remember him and have used Search and "Find on Page" through every part of this thread.  *sigh*

Little help, someone?

thanks,
John


----------



## Fade

I thought he was posted on the Story Hour thread.


----------



## Piratecat

I'm still swooning, trembling with rapture at the vision of a future undead Priggle, but that will take some serious work to fit in plot-wise - assuming that I can do so without mangling what other things are going on in the plot.  But meanwhile...



			
				Bronz Dragon said:
			
		

> *
> Might I suggest ancient relic being hawked by some greasy vendor, who doesn't realize what it is?..  instant diversion from the white kingdom. *




So, there's a problem with this that I'm sure you've already thought of. Not with the mechanics; those are feasible. But the White Kingdom is one long-ass plot arc, and in essence it's a great big dungeon. What almost ALWAYS happens with big dungeons? I'll tell you (at least in my experience): players get bored.

Part of not letting people get bored is keeping things interesting and unpredictable; the upcoming disaster in my story hour was orchestrated partially for that reason. The other part, though, is maintaining a sense of momentum. I want to keep things feeling like they're moving rapidly forward. I want there to be a definite end in sight, and for every piece to build on what has come before. A time-based side adventure makes me nervous because I'm not sure it would maintain the momentum.

But lordy, it has potential.  

EDIT - Greybar, I think he's on the main thread, in the first 10 pages. I don't think I deleted him. The fast way of checking is to go to page 10, hit ctrl-F, and type in Klixxit. If he isn't there, go to page 9 and do the same thing. It's a little bit faster!


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *
> 
> A time-based side adventure makes me nervous because I'm not sure it would maintain the momentum.
> 
> *




And, of course, Sagiro's already been there, done that. Well, apart from the "side" part.


----------



## Ashy

I have Klixxit, if you like.    Shall I repost him here?  Is that who they are about to fight in the SH, Pkitty?

Akin - ya ever gonna email me?


----------



## Kugar

Another Time Travel involved side trip could involve the defenders.  Imagine some divine, powerful entity wished to communicate with the Defenders in absolute secret.  What would it do? 
Take them back in time to the scene of their greatest accomplishments and parlay!
For example:  the very climax of the comet cycle.  Why?  It would be natural for a powerful entity want to get involved, and all divinations about the Defenders then would be directed to the more prominent group.  Would it not be cool to find out that the whole comet cycle was a really elaborate set piece to talk to current (then future) Defenders in private.  What a great way to reveal a HUGE secret than from the back of the comet destined to smash Spira.

Kugar
Edit: Add PS and fixed it's timeline 

Ps RE: Priggle.
It would not be future undead Piggle, but just a continuation of his life.  Look below 1s represent Priggle from birth to time jump.
2s Represent Priggles after Jump.
A---D---B----------C---
2222222|2222222222|22
---------1111111111----

Events: A = Priggle Arives in past; B = Priggle Born; C = Priggle sent back in time; D = Priggle becomes undead.
Notice that that there are two Priggles active during his life until point C, but Priggle 2 would be doing everything he could to make "History" happen as he remembered - and of course it does or else there would be paradox.

Of course from Priggle's viewpoint it would be :
*B*1111111*CA*2222*D*2222222222*B*222222*C*22222222


----------



## Knightfall

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *So, there's a problem with this that I'm sure you've already thought of. Not with the mechanics; those are feasible. But the White Kingdom is one long-ass plot arc, and in essence it's a great big dungeon. What almost ALWAYS happens with big dungeons? I'll tell you (at least in my experience): players get bored.
> 
> Part of not letting people get bored is keeping things interesting and unpredictable; the upcoming disaster in my story hour was orchestrated partially for that reason. The other part, though, is maintaining a sense of momentum. I want to keep things feeling like they're moving rapidly forward. I want there to be a definite end in sight, and for every piece to build on what has come before. A time-based side adventure makes me nervous because I'm not sure it would maintain the momentum.
> 
> But lordy, it has potential.  *




Here's an idea, relate 'breaking the back of the White Kingdom' to the time travel plot.  Maybe they need to go back in time to 'break the back of the White Kingdom'.

Defenders are in the present, they need to get this white Kingdom problem solved before the 'upcoming disaster' lays the world low, so to speak.

A future version of Dylrath comes back in time to their present location and convinces them that the only way to win against the White Kingdom is to come bakc in time with him to when the White Kingdom is just starting to rear it's ugly head.

Now, back in the past, the Defenders must make sure they don't get side tracked by events they know are going to be solved by their past selves, as well as stay clear of their past selves (the whole two instances of one self can't occupy the same space in time sort of thing).

Some things could come to light that didn't make sense before or you could drop a whole new bunch of crazy plot twists with time elements imbedded into 'em.  Like an undead Priggle.

Then once victorous in the past, Dlyrath transports them back to the present where they have to deal with the knowledge that he can later in life, travel through time.  and they CAN"T tell him this or they might screw up the past, present and future.

And when they get back, they arrive just as the 'impending disaster' is ready to unfold and the future Dylrath doesn't stick around and help or tell them whether or not they succeed or not.  He cant' because it might cause a Paradox.



Just some random, evil time traveling ideas...

KF72


----------



## Akin Ringpeace

Ashy said:
			
		

> *
> Akin - ya ever gonna email me?   *




Hey, I did ages ago. I never heard back.

I'll send you another.


----------



## Kaodi

*Time Travel And Other Things*

Time travel always seems to be a neat idea, but this is the sort of stuff where you really have to be careful to avoid paradox, unless you don't  really care whether things are paradoxical or not... the best kind of time travel I believe is the kind where you send the players off to another demiplane without them knowing it, and have that time feature either the fast or slow time trait, so what seems like a day could of been a year in their world, or what seemed  like a year could of been a day. Or even more extreme. If you really wanted to be tricky, you could insinuate  the solution to the  White Kingdom into some sort of inoculous mini-detail of one of their quests/adventures/encounters in the demiplane. As for other things, the White Kingdom should try to confront the Defenders not only with their fears, but with some nemeses of a sense. Malachite with a genuinely beneficial undead, Mara with the sun as a destructive force, Velendo with walls being a bad thing, and so on and so on... Hope some of this helps. 

One question... will the Defenders eventually encounter the full circle of Weird sisters?


----------



## Spatzimaus

Considering Sagiro's campaign is all about the "they changed the past, changing the outcome of a big war, and now look at what's happened" thing, I'd forget any ideas of time travel.  Besides, it's just really cliche'd.

Although, if you wanted to put in a really limited time-travel thing to let them solve the Kellharin situation by grabbing a relative of his from the past (say, a young cousin who disappeared while wandering through some tunnels...) to continue the family bloodline in the present, that could work.


----------



## Bronz Dragon

*Re: Time Travel And Other Things*



			
				Kaodi said:
			
		

> *...the White Kingdom should try to confront the Defenders not only with their fears, but with some nemeses of a sense. *




Malachite with a genuinely beneficial undead.  _Stone Bear's ancestors_

Mara with the sun as a destructive force.  _a giant ant with a magnifying glass_ 

Velendo with walls being a bad thing.  _A deep, deep pit with crumbling walls that fall in when the captive tries to move. _


----------



## Piratecat

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> *Considering Sagiro's campaign is all about the "they changed the past, changing the outcome of a big war, and now look at what's happened" thing, I'd forget any ideas of time travel.  Besides, it's just really cliche'd.*





Yeah, without meaning to, Sagiro and I keep grabbing plots from each other - planned before they spring up in the other person's game!  I had originally planned to have them confronted by the lackeys of an evil wizard named Rath, who of course was a time-traveled Dylrath trying to change the past so that he didn't become evil and twisted.  It never worked out, unfortunately, but I have other fun things planned.



> *Although, if you wanted to put in a really limited time-travel thing to let them solve the Kellharin situation by grabbing a relative of his from the past (say, a young cousin who disappeared while wandering through some tunnels...) to continue the family bloodline in the present, that could work. *




_SUPER SECRET - don't mention the following!_

Remember that key Nolin found in the first vault room, and the snippet of legend he remembered about a lost dwarven city? There's an entire city of 40,000 (somewat degenerate) dwarves sealed away on the elemental plane of earth - if the PCs ever decide to check it out by using it as a _plane shift_ component, they'll be brought there. Instant army and dwarven city repopulation, anyone?  I betcha they won't think of trying it until after the adventure, though.


----------



## Graf

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *
> I betcha they won't think of trying it until after the adventure, though.   *




In there defense, they have a lot of balls up in the air to start side-treking...
(the mark of the true RBDM, you have all the tools you need but you figure out just a bit too late how to put it together)

Time travel..... Very hard to pull off. I've played in several games where it train wrecked completely because the DMs weren't flexible enough to cope with what you can do when you *know* the future.


----------



## Spatzimaus

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I had originally planned to have them confronted by the lackeys of an evil wizard named Rath, who of course was a time-traveled Dylrath trying to change the past so that he didn't become evil and twisted.  [/B]




Naw, the REALLY twisted way to do it would to make the evil wizard Rath be a time-traveled Htarlyd, who wants to prevent the events that caused him to betray and kill Dylrath.  That way, they'd end up spending a few adventures just arguing about HOW it was possible.  (Answer: well, Teliez wanted an assistant, and Dylrath said no once too many times, so he went with the next best thing; using sort of an Epic variation on Simulacrum, he created a "Dylrath Golem", transferred Htarlyd into it, and so on... okay, maybe I've been watching too many old horror movies)

As for Goldstone, I guessed that they weren't going to want to take many "side trips".  I mean, if they spend a lot of cash to avoid losing a few months training levels, they're probably not going to want to take any planar jaunts.  Unless, of course, they have no choice.
For example, maybe at some point in the future (like when TomTom's player is ready to play full-time again), they'll need to take a trip to try and shut off that temporal rebound thing once and for all.  Of course, TomTom will immediately want to head back to Eversink to grab whatever money remains in the now-failed investments, and so on.

Which reminds me, I had a question: when Agar was trying to arrange payment with Mijrik, how exactly did they plane shift in and out of the town?  Wouldn't the random scatter in the spell have done nasty things to anyone who getting back?  Or did they planeshift back to a safer place on the surface and then Teleport Without Error?  Guess I answered my own question.


----------



## Talix

I sincerely hope you avoid doing something cheesy a la Star Trek time travel (the past they already lived through actually changes).  All these other ideas seem definitely plausible and evil in a really fun way, though!  Love the undead Priggle.


----------



## Bronz Dragon

Just reading the story hour, and I couldn't help noticing the dead bullete...

could that be what I think it is?  

*prepares a girlish squeal of glee*


----------



## Samnell

Is it too late to share Kuo-Toa ideas? This isn't so much cultural, but wouldn't it be cool if their city were defended by one or two skeletal krakens? Ok, I know in real life mollusks don't have skeletons like humans do, but this is D&D. 

Just imagine, the Defenders come up on a giant cavern containing the city beneath the surface of this little underground sea and one of them is grabbed by a giant skeletal tentacle. Alternatively, pseudonatural krakens. Maybe another marriage prospect for Agar, and one he isn't so against.


----------



## MTR

The Defenders believe they were responsible for causing the disaster that looms over them.  I thought you might have them go back in time to undo that.  Of course they need to avoid paradoxes while they do so, which could be used as a way to strip them of some of their power.  Of course somebody like Nolin would get impatient with avoiding paradoxes and kick the whole structure over.

I *love* the lich Priggle.


----------



## Kugar

I just had a evil kinda idea from reading the main thread.  KidC said that soon the local ex-vergins may come a calling carrying "gifts".  What if you used the cliched serving girl, with the proverbial love child, but instead of looking for Nolin, she comes after Malachite or Velendo?  Would having a child change Malachite's martyr complex.  How was the child concieved?  If the Emerald Chapel demands celebacy, then you got a real puzzle on your hands.  Of course divinations agree with the young woman, but they have been wrong before, right? 

Kugar


----------



## Ashy

Hey - I need everyone who loves Pkitty's story hour to post their favorite quotes by its characters here.  I have a tres cool idea that I want to try out!    Thanks, gang!

Oh, here's the format:

"Weal or Woe." - Malachite


----------



## Greybar

“Some prices are not worth paying. That’s a lesson you still haven’t learned.” - Malachite


----------



## Piratecat

Hey, anyone know anything about volume and fluid mechanics? Oddly enough, I need to know how long a small reservoir might take to empty down a 10' x 10' corridor after a dam was removed.

Thanks!


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot

"If he says 'prophecy', we're going to hit him." - Malachite

"That isn't normal dragon behavior." - ao



Hrm...in reference to the above quote, I wnoder if Nolin will be inheriting anything from Gilias in the future *hint*hint*


----------



## Rybaer

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Hey, anyone know anything about volume and fluid mechanics? Oddly enough, I need to know how long a small reservoir might take to empty down a 10' x 10' corridor after a dam was removed.
> 
> Thanks! *





*Gasp*  Could that fluid dynamics class I took in college finally pay off?  Frankly, I'm very rusty, but I might be able to come up with a reasonably educated estimate if you could provide more details about the size of the reservoir (all dimensions). 

I also need to know how it gets into the corridor.  Oh, and we're talking water, right?  If it's something more exotic, like lava, oil, honey, or tar, that changes the numbers considerably.

Just gotta dig out my Transport Phenomena book...


----------



## Piratecat

Sollir, be less hinty and more explicit. Pretend I'm slow or something.  

Rybaer, picture an underground spring-fed reservoir of undertermined size. It's dammed up, so that a small amount of water drains out, just like any dam. It's filled quite slowly.

Then the flood doors are opened. At the same time, very far downstream, a series of razor-coated portcullises is lowered.

The water rushes out into a steeply downwards sloping, perfectly smooth 10' x 10' tunnel. It slopes downwards in a gentle arc, merging with another tunnel.

For the poor PCs, though, they first learn that there's a wall of water when it smacks into them at (I think) 60-80 miles an hour, driving them downstream into a series of three razor-gates while drowning them! Then the poisonous eels start attacking...  Man, kuo-toa are _mean._ 

I'll attach one of my infamous Excel maps for illustration.

My questions:

 - how fast (roughly) might the water get going? I did some research on flash floods, and the 60-80 miles an hour was suggested, but I'd like a sanity check.

- how long would the water flow for? This is important both for drowning purposes and escape strategies. I know that this is dependent on the size of the reservoir, but I just have no clue how long something like this would take to drain. I'd say the reservoir is somewhere in size between a large pond and a small lake.

Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated!


----------



## Mathew_Freeman

All together now...

"Piratecat is an R B D M!
You know he's an R B D M!
He got poisonous eels
And bad water traps!
He's gonna try and kill them all!
R B D M!
P-cat's an R B D M..."

To the tune of YMCA, just to clarify...the thought just jumped into my head and I went with it...

Ooooh, sudden thought. Those _Wall_ spells of Valendo's are really going to put a dampner (ha! I made a funny!) on that trap, if anyone manages to see it coming...


----------



## Greybar

Heh, what's the terminal velocity of a wall of water?

I don't think heavy calculus is needed for this and reality might just get in the way.  If you want it to be 60 miles per hour it gets to 60 miles per hour.  The flash flood scenario might assume large body that moves down a narrowing path (like a arroyo (sp?)).  The calculus would be needed to figure out the number.  To the infernal regions with that.

60 mph ~= 5000 ft/min ~= 100 5ft squares/round
(Hey, that was easy!)

Assume 10x10 standard dungeon tunnel as installed by union kuo-tao contractors.  Look for the label of Kuo-Tao Stonemason Local 403 for quality!

So that's a 10x10x5 block of water for every round of PC drownage.

SRD says:
"Fast-moving water is much more dangerous. On a successful Swim or Strength check (DC 15), it deals 1d3 points of subdual damage per round (1d6 points of normal damage if flowing over rocks and cascades). On a failed check, the character must make another check that round to avoid going under.  If the character goes under, the character is drowning.

Very deep water is not only generally pitch black, posing a navigational hazard, but worse, it deals water pressure damage of 1d6 points per minute for every 100 feet the character is below the surface. A successful Fortitude saving throw (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) means the diver takes no damage in that minute.

Very cold water deals 1d6 points of subdual damage from hypothermia per minute of exposure."

Let's call this high-pressure water the equivalent of "deep water" as well as cold.  That's still only damage in minutes though.

SRD also says:
"Any character can hold her breath for a number of rounds equal to twice her Constitution score. After this period of time, the character must make a Constitution check (DC 10) every round in order to continue holding her breath. Each round, the DC increases by 1.
When the character finally fails her Constitution check, she begins to drown. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hp). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she dies."

So we need to challenge twice their Con to make it worth it!  So let's say 30 rounds worth of water.  That's 30x10x10x5 = 15000 cubic feet of water.  So a pond 30 long by 50 wide by 10 deep would be sufficient.  No problem, piece of cake.

My guess is that the razor portcullis and screaming eels will be more danger than the drowning, just because 30 rounds to challenge a 15 con is a long time.

John


----------



## Kugar

Hi guys!
I sent PC this spreadsheet to find out the rate of flow out of the reservoir, for you other techies check it out - I made some simplifications and assumptions so if you find mistakes or can suggest how to modify the calcuations I'd be indebted.   Eventually I'll post up this spreadsheet with a short write-up so other GMs can drown their PCs.  PC- this is great idea! 
Kugar


----------



## Greybar

Oh, and I'm sure you're planning that spellcasting during this will be an epic challenge so to speak.

Verbal - unless you're Water Breathing already, you might have to sacrifice some of your rounds against drowning to expel air into the rush.  Even then you might need a Fort save not to get water in your mouth that jumps you 2d6 rounds closer to downing.

Somatic - while being tossed head over heels in the rush of water?

Material - try to pull that pinch of powdered diamond out of your pouch under these conditions, bucko!

Ooh this is fun.  And my PCs might have to deal with watery doom at some point too... [chuckle]

It is hard to visualize how the eels will be able to attack the PCs until the water stops rushing at 60 mph.  Won't they go right past?  Now if it stabilizes with a full tunnel and little or no flow, I understand that...

John


----------



## DanMcS

Greybar said:
			
		

> *60 mph ~= 5000 ft/min ~= 100 5ft squares/round
> (Hey, that was easy!)
> 
> Assume 10x10 standard dungeon tunnel as installed by union kuo-tao contractors.  Look for the label of Kuo-Tao Stonemason Local 403 for quality!
> 
> So that's a 10x10x5 block of water for every round of PC drownage.*




That should be 10x10x500, assuming you're working in feet.  Volume flow rate equals area * velocity; area is 10x10, velocity is 100 squares/round is 500 feet/round.



> *So we need to challenge twice their Con to make it worth it!  So let's say 30 rounds worth of water.  That's 30x10x10x5 = 15000 cubic feet of water.  So a pond 30 long by 50 wide by 10 deep would be sufficient.  No problem, piece of cake.*




That would make this bit 30 rounds duration x 10x10 area x 500 feet of water/round = 1,500,000 cubic feet of water, or a pond about 100 by 150 by 100 feet deep.  Sounds much better to me, since that little dinky cistern you first postulated would drain out in about 1/3 a second at this flow rate.


----------



## Greybar

You're absolutely right, DanMcS
Whoops for the back-o-napkin.
John


----------



## Piratecat

As I told Kugar by email, it's fun knowing smart people.

Thanks! Stone Bear _melded into stone_ quickly enough, but Velendo was mid-spell when he got hit by the water, and missed his concentration check by 3 (DC 45).  And that's where we ended the game.


----------



## Ashy

ERP!    Hey, Pkitty - did you get my email?


----------



## Rybaer

Well, sounds like you got some "good-enough-for-gaming-purposes-numbers".  

I eagerly look forward to seeing how it pans out for the characters.


----------



## Bronz Dragon

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Then the flood doors are opened. At the same time, very far downstream, a series of razor-coated portcullises is lowered.
> *



What?  No _Blade Barriers_?


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot

Sorry about being too vague, heh

I was looking over the earlier part of the Storyhour when the Defenders were in Eversink and they rescued Nolin and Kiri's father, Gilias, from the Trillith.  Anyways, he mentioned something about his grandfather stealing perhaps one of the true names of Trea (sp?), and that assassins have been searching for him ever since.

Was wondering if he would inherit that erm, blessing, any time soon 

btw, very nasty, I like


----------



## Piratecat

A brief reminder, guys - if we're going to do this, please keep this thread totally separate from the rest of the board. I'd rather avoid spoilers over in the storyhour thread.

Thanks!  (And no harm done, but it's worth reminding folks.)

 - Kevin


----------



## RangerWickett

(Imagined conversation)

Velendo:  I'm busy praying to make sure we'l know what's coming up next.  What do you need that's so important?

Nolin:  *nervous glance over his shoulder*  Um . . . could you prepare an, um . . . remove disease spell?

Velendo:  *concerned* Did you Legend Lore and find out that the plaguebearers are after us again?

Nolin:  Err, no.

Velendo:  What, some kind of new mummy rot you got from eating all that fried food in Akin's Throat?

Nolin:  Heh, well, it might've had something to do with eating, but, no, no, not really?

Velendo:  *is silent for a moment, then sighs*  The dark elf woman?

Nolin:  Listen, I'd prefer if you just not tell the oth-

Velendo:  Sorry, sorry, I'm too busy preparing 'Weal or Woe.'  Go ask Malachite.  He can cure diseases.


----------



## The Forsaken One

Heh I just overran my party with suicide critters. The kind that charges you, screams, throws itself onto you and detonates into one purple, green, red and brown haze of volitile bodily fluids.

Damage equal to their HD. I kinda templated it but it's weird and not really finished. Can be applied to anything though exept constructs.

But the panic of the party is just awsome to behold when they find themselves confronted with suicide creatures... and like they are ever ever gonna dare to enter any dungeon again with arguing for about 3 hours who's gonna take point and peek around the next corner first. 

And offcourse the suicide critters damage does splash damage  Had one surprise the party and deal alot of damage, the second dropped one and then they picked up and ran like hell.  It was so cool since they were totally surprised and had no idea to tackle the problem...

So Pkitty if you ever want to surprise your players with nasty stuff.. have them be charged by advanced ghouls or something that jump onto or between players and detonate in huge amounts of negative energy. (the joke is that any other undead around get a massive load of temporary hitpoints out of this.)

With a good RPing party, especially the panic effect should be great. Surely with more of the bugger's screams and howls echoing down the hallway in front and behind you... and more charging already into the faint aura of light that illuminates everything around you..... But you could make the same out of living creatures exept have them deal acid damage and have them also make a save when they get hit like they were hit by digester spit poison...


----------



## maddman75

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Sollir, be less hinty and more explicit. Pretend I'm slow or something.
> 
> Rybaer, picture an underground spring-fed reservoir of undertermined size. It's dammed up, so that a small amount of water drains out, just like any dam. It's filled quite slowly.
> 
> Then the flood doors are opened. At the same time, very far downstream, a series of razor-coated portcullises is lowered.
> 
> The water rushes out into a steeply downwards sloping, perfectly smooth 10' x 10' tunnel. It slopes downwards in a gentle arc, merging with another tunnel.
> 
> For the poor PCs, though, they first learn that there's a wall of water when it smacks into them at (I think) 60-80 miles an hour, driving them downstream into a series of three razor-gates while drowning them! Then the poisonous eels start attacking...  Man, kuo-toa are mean.
> *




This is just the kind of Rat Bastard Wile E Coyote madness that gives me convulsions of maniacal laughter.  Can't wait to read about this one!


----------



## Richards

I just had a strange thought about something that happened a few pages back in the Story Hour.







> Suddenly, Galanna’s words to her back in the vault reverberate in her thoughts:
> 
> Speak of my gospel to those who do not believe. There is still time to save some of their souls, before the fall is over, if you do what I ask. Be strong in your faith, and you will deliver them from darkness.
> 
> Tao swallows, shivers with the memory, and raises her voice to contradict the speaker. Despite some initial heckling Tao can be a convincing speaker when she tries, and within a few minutes she has turned the mood of the crowd against the convincing goblin. When they start pelting the goblin with rotted fungus, Tao takes his place on Speaker’s Rock. Slowly at first, then gathering momentum, she tries to fulfill her Goddess’ wishes by telling others about Galanna and what her religion entails. The populace of Akin’s Throat loves a good show if nothing else, and Tao soon has a sizeable crowd listening to her as she speaks of turning away from the darkness of Imbindarla into the life-circle of Galanna. It’s unclear how many people she actually converts, but at least no one throws fungus. Flumphs drift over to float above her head, and her voice echoes out across the cavern, carrying over both the geyser and the sound of the forge’s ringing hammers.




Wouldn't it be interesting if the souls that Galanna was concerned about saving were those of the flumphs?  They are intelligent beings, after all...

Just a thought.  I rather enjoyed the mental picture I conjured up of Tao being followed around by a small horde of flumph followers converted to the worship of Galanna.   

Johnathan


----------



## Talix

Wow - truely nasty.  I love how you can try to think of one of the worst possible situations, and then throw it at your players anyway since they're so high level.  

Can't wait to read about this in the storyhour...


----------



## Corran

A while back people were designing large undead troop transport creatures. In looking through all my Dragon issues to find a Nodwick comic (see the main thread), I found that someone beat us to the punch quite a while ago. ;-)

In Dragon 276 (October 2000) on page 88 is a monster called an Ulgurstasta. It's 17HD,  has undead qualities, damage reduction and spell resistance. It can swallow whole, can spawn skeletons and has a breath weapon (basically it barfs on you ;-)

All in all a pretty sick puppy.  ;-)


----------



## Knight Otu

Just in case...



> He has been thoroughly briefed by his lady love, so he knows what the sunsuckers are capable of.




Do they know more about this now? We are talking about someone already mentioned in this thread, right?


----------



## Piratecat

You mean Telay? Nope. she's coming - but Nulloc is dallying with Murliss, Lady of Worms, ghoulish commander (and part of the original module that I'm actually using! Lordy, lordy, wonders never cease.)

All together now: Ick.


----------



## Kugar

(Raises Hand)

"Um Mr P-Kitty, sir.  Could we please see Mr Toad guys stats? Please!" 

Seriously, what is a _Staff of the Rising Spell_?

Kugar
Edit PS - My guess was that Nulloc's mistress was the Drow guide, and the pair was pulling a masterful backstab


----------



## Ashy

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *You mean Telay? Nope. she's coming - but Nulloc is dallying with Murliss, Lady of Worms, ghoulish commander (and part of the original module that I'm actually using! Lordy, lordy, wonders never cease.)
> 
> All together now: Ick. *




I don't know now, Pkitty- maybe that is why she chose the drow in the first place.  After all, she apparently has a thing for little, slimy, wriggly things....


----------



## Kaodi

*True Ghoul Nobles*

Is Murliss the only one of the  named nobles you are keeping, or are you going to have the  other Marquis (what is the plural?) as well?


----------



## Knight Otu

It was worth a shot. 

Ugh!


----------



## maddman75

The Thurn!  The Thurn!



> The monster is effectively a wart-covered, elephant-sized gray render with huge bat wings and the BoVD's "corrupted" template attached. They're eeevil, they're tough, they're NOT undead - they're more like vaguely intelligent attack dogs if an attack dog was the size of a rhino - and they need a cool moniker. Any ideas?
> 
> Huge Aberration
> HD: 20d10+220 (330)
> Initiative: -1
> Speed: 30 ft., fly 60’
> AC: 25 (-2 size, -1 dex, +18 natural)
> Attacks: Bite +27 melee, 2 claws +22 melee or weapon +22/+17/+12
> Damage: Bite 2d10+12 (+ vile), claw 1d10+6 (+ vile) or huge greatsword 2d8+18
> Face/Reach: 10 ft. by 5 ft./15 ft. (elephant sized + bat wings)
> Special Attacks: Improved grab, rend 3d10+18, Disruptive attack (+10 pts vile) on non-outsiders
> Special Qualities: Scent, darkvision, acid immunity, DR 10/+3, Fast Healing 10 pts
> Saves: Fort +23, Ref +11, Will +5
> Abilities: Str 35 (+12), Dex 8, Con 32 (+11), Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 6
> Feats: None
> Skills: Hide +12, Spot +17
> Treasure: None
> Alignment: Lawful Evil
> 
> Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the thurn must hit with its bite attack.
> 
> Rend (Ex): A thurn that gets a hold latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals x3 claw damage.
> 
> Disruptive attack: When a corrupted creature successfully hits, it does half its hit dice as additional Vile damage (ie not easily healed.) In the case of thurnm, this manifest as grotesquely bulging warts and a swelling of the injured area.




I can't wait for them to get hit by that Vile damage.  Should do a good job of freaking them .


----------



## Piratecat

Kugar said:
			
		

> *Edit PS - My guess was that Nulloc's mistress was the Drow guide, and the pair was pulling a masterful backstab *




Dang it!  You know, if this had occurred to me at the time, it would have been brilliant. I wish I had thought of it.  Hummph.

The staff of the Rising Spell is a magic item that gets more powerful based on your class. 

Non-spellcaster: +2 to int.
Spellcaster but not wizard: +4 to int.
Wizard: +6 to int, grants Improved Spell Focus if you already have Spell Focus.)

The staff is made from hardened mushroom, and the wizard weilding it can change what the head of the staff looks like. For Nulloc, it looked like a toad; for Agar, when he claimed it, he made it look like little tentacles. He can even make them wiggle by concentrating on them.

Incidentally, Nulloc's toad familiar was killed years ago. He liked toads previously, but that traumatic event started his current mania.

-----------

I want to share with you the game announcement that I just sent out to my players. We won;t reach it in the story hour for a month or so, but I thought you might be amused:



> This Thursday:
> 
> The obscenely malformed formorian giants of Thulk's Wall had been told to kill you, but they apparently thought better of it.
> 
> The hideous fishmen of Glubyal Bay don't seem to have the same amount of moral rectitude. Already, the forces of Sea King Blel-Plibbit have betrayed you, tried to messily drown and crush you, and have even tried to destroy you the good old fashioned way: magic, poison and force of arms. Friendly of them.  You know that the Sea King is supposedly the mortal husband of Blibdoolpoolp, a kuo-toa priest without peer, and that he's a close ally of the Ghouls. In his mind, that must make him an enemy of yours, and he seems determined to do something about it. Other enemies may want to chat and negotiate, but he's a big fan of using force. Hard, brutal force. Really, it's a religious imperative.
> 
> So right now you're temporarily a host of the insane Monitor Thoobbel, a kuo-toa rebel who fancies himself the next God-King of Glubyal. He does seem to control almost a third of the city. Behind coral barricades and using thousands of fanatically loyal troops, Thoobbel has fought for what he knows Blibdoolpoolp would want: a city without ghoulish influence, without a corrupt and cowardly king, a city where the supposedly "insane" can live their lives as the Sea Mother sees fit. He may be using you, but you may be using him just as much; somewhere in the unnavigable maze of the Nautilus Spire lies the royal palace, and with it the Shrine of the Glass Pool. Thoobbel has told you that it's THE holy shrine to the Sea Mother, but it isn't really glass; it's ice, and it's where Blibdoolpoolp whispers her oracular secrets to the Sea King.
> 
> Poppycock, you think; it's where Silissa's sister is imprisoned.
> 
> Next game, you get to choose and follow your path. Flee Glubyal, leaving the elemental oracle imprisoned? Sneak into the holiest of holies, a public plaza in the heart of the city? Or decide not to leave a vital enemy at your back, and replace the Sea King with your own puppet ruler?
> 
> Your decision. But Blel-Plibbit doesn't have this sort of moral dilemma. He has a brand new goal, and it involves the Defenders of Daybreak - and their new role as fish food.
> 
> See you Thursday!
> 
> - Kevin


----------



## Greybar

> HD: 20d10+220 (330)
> ...
> AC: 25




Sadly, we've recently witnessed Malachite doing 150 in a round - though that might have been an anomoly.  And I bet AC25 is pretty easy for him.  If the thurn hasn't been buffed and is fighting solo, I'm guessing he'll be lucky to last three rounds against all of the Defenders prepped for him.

It's always a surprise to me how many hit points PCs can deal out when they're doing good.  But if you plan for that, they start rolling single-digit to hits and get run over....

John


----------



## Piratecat

A round and a half, dang it all. A round and a half.  

Really, falling through the _blade barrier_ just added insult to injury.

But that's okay; he was just the warmup act.


----------



## Knightfall

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *A round and a half, dang it all. A round and a half.
> 
> Really, falling through the blade barrier just added insult to injury.
> 
> But that's okay; he was just the warmup act. *




The question then becomes, PC, did you at least get some vile damage on the Defenders?

Waiting eagerly for the next update, but, in the meantime, I'm off to continue reading Sep's story hour.  Only one more thread and I'll finally be ready to start reading his current Wyre thread.

Cheers!

KF72


----------



## Greybar

> The question then becomes, PC, did you at least get some vile damage on the Defenders?




Ooh, too late now, but how about adding a vile Final Strike to such beasties.  That way even if they get polished off they might have some lasting effect.  I was going to have one of the recent enemies in my game have Final Strike, but I wussed out and regretted it.  They could have taken the blast and it would have given them pause (and good info).

How about two dozen or so ghouls, swollen with vile pus, charge down on the defenders - or drop from aloves above them into the midst of the party.  Everyone that dies explodes in a flash of blackness and vile drippings.

The ghouls might only be 5 or 6 HD, with a Final Strike that does (HD/2)d6 in vile damage in a 30" radius.  Reflex SV of only 15 or so for half damage (i.e. easy for the Defenders), but the many rolls they'll need and the not-easily-healable nature might pile up and be scary.  Not lethal, just scary.

Of course, I don't have the rules for vile damage, so I don't know just how "unhealable" this damage is - but I like the idea.

John


----------



## Bronz Dragon

how about a disease that is passed on like that?

Some large animal is infected with a necromantic spell, so that it loses 1 con every day until it dies..  when it kicks off, some pustule inside it explodes violently, infecting everything within a radius equal to (5 X con lost to illness)' radius..  Anything hit by the toxic sludge will likely be disgusted, but won't realize that they are infected, just a stomacheache and an unusually strong desire to be around friends and family.  Then:  *POP* goes the weasel!

 A horde of infected rats   

I think the really sneaky thing about this is that  if the necromancer infects something huge, it'll be a month or more before it really starts making havoc.  Even if they kill the necromancer the illness will just keep chugging.


----------



## Talix

I was thinking that just one of those things wasn't much of a challenge to the party.  Two might have been better, three might have killed them if they were even mildly unlucky.  

Of course, there's also the question of whether this is a challenge for the party, or a realistic defender of the Rift - honestly this could probably take out anything that comes along, with the exception of this ludicrously-powered group.   

I'm glad that they're leaving some of the dwarves behind, at least - when I realized/was reminded that the group was 29 members large, I was a little shocked!  

Maybe throwing a horde of medium creatures at them instead of all these one-big-baddie battles?


----------



## Piratecat

Talix said:
			
		

> *Of course, there's also the question of whether this is a challenge for the party, or a realistic defender of the Rift - honestly this could probably take out anything that comes along, with the exception of this ludicrously-powered group.
> *




It's specifically designed to be the latter.

I'm not under any illusion that this is supposed to be a major challenge. On the contrary, it's supposed to be little more than threatening set dressing - a realistic and viable defender that just happens to be too weak to stop high level heroes.  In terms of pacing and plot, you'll see why during the next post. The thurn was the warm-up act, and even what appears to be a climactic battle is just getting the group ready for the cliffhanger.  This was a game I'd prepared for and anticipated for more than six months. It went as well as I could ever have hoped.

As for whether or not they're ludicrously powered, I'd maintain that they're underpowered compared to a benchmark group of their size and level. Although their magic item values generally match the PHB "standards", Velendo must be the only 18th lvl cleric in the world without a wisdom-enhancing item! This relative lack of across-the-board combat optimization is compensated for by sheer number and generally good teamwork/tactics.  I'd be curious about other peoples' opinions on this.

The dwarves are hanging in there pretty well, all told (although that might change this Thursday - heh.) They serve as pointmen, scouts, coordinated crossbowmen, aid the PCs in big combats, and to clean up the weaker foes while the Defenders tackle the Commanders.

I'd say that right now, the Defenders are 3/5ths of the way through this adventure arc. Following the kuo-toa city they're currently in (about 3 games ahead of the story hour), they know of a ruined mind flayer city, and then as far as they know it's a relatively straight shot on to the heart of the White Kingdom. Of course, lord knows what can happen, but I have an interesting climax planned. Ought to be fun.


----------



## DoctorB

What constitutes good preparation for a session, PC?  I am curious as to what you use for props and notes.


----------



## Piratecat

It really depends on the session. I average an hour of aimless brainstorming and an hour of actual prep per week.

Most sessions require little or no prep work, other than thinking about plot in the shower (or driving, or falling asleep; I really miss not being in more boring business meetings, because that's when I did my best design work).  I scribble my thoughts down in cryptic sentence fragments on a single piece of paper, and I'm ready to go. A favorite technique is also using a flowchart to map out who's doing what, and how the PCs might react.

I really like doing handouts. Most of my Excel maps don't take me too long (less than an hour), but I only make them when they'll actually be useful. I also like providing handouts like Murliss' love note, because it provides insight into the minds of the bad guys. Lately, Agar has been using a spell that shows him visions, and I've spent maybe a half hour a week writing up "cut scenes" that he sees.. thus providing the same sort of effect. 

But lordy, there are exceptions. I find that I dislike "ballparking" NPCs only when I want to provide a real challenge. That means that before a big fight game, I spend a lot of time generating NPCs. I'll be moving to doing this electronically, but I'm not there yet.  It can be time consuming. I plan ahead enough that I can spread the effort out over 2-4 weeks.

For this next session, for instance, I've had to create: 

- a prestige class (the kuo-toa whip), 
- a 19th lvl kuo-toa cleric/hierophant, 
- two 16th lvl kuo-toa whips (cleric 3/rogue 3/whip 10), 
- a 16th lvl kuo-toa monitor, 
- an assortment of 10th lvl kuo-toa fighters, 
- a half-dozen or so unique magic items,
- a rough schedule of what happens when (with or without the PCs' intervention), 
- a series of prophecies,
- a rough map of Glubyal,
- a specific map of the area around the shrine of the Glass Pool, 
- some research into new ways to resolve large-scale combat,
- sneaky kuo-toa battle tactics.

Whew!  The high level spellcasters, in specific, took me at least an hour per NPC. I'm glad I don't do this sort of thing too often. It should be worth it, though; if the PCs go into next game foolishly and without a clever plan, they're going to get a very rude awakening. There's a good chance of a body count; and really, that's why I want to make sure that my rules are nice and solid.


----------



## Schmoe

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I want to share with you the game announcement that I just sent out to my players. We won;t reach it in the story hour for a month or so, but I thought you might be amused:
> 
> *




You know, I really like this idea!  What a wonderful way to get players interested and involved in the game before an evening's session.  Do you do this before every game, or just certain sessions that seem more important?


----------



## Ashy

I used to do it for my group, but the bulk of them (sadly) never seemed to appreciate it.  

Actually, there is a lot that PKitty and I do the same when it comes to DMing, I just think that he does it LOTS better than me!


----------



## Talix

Looking at that list of preparation materials, I despair of ever having enough time or creativity to do a good story hour.    Hell, even a decent storyhour - I'm not saying I want to be PirateCat (well, I do, but you know what I mean ), but just to not bore my future players.  

Enough of my whining - if you can't tell, I'm very impressed, and I can't WAIT to hear about this mammoth session - it sounded like an uber-climax to me, and the fact that this is only about half-way through the campaign is pretty freaked out.  In a good way.


----------



## Piratecat

*Cruciel, Angel of the Arch, Angel of the Broken Siege*

NG half-celestial; Rogue 1, fighter 5, Devoted Defender 8

AC: 26 or 30 (+7 armor, +5 shield, +1 natural, +3 dex, +4 dodge when defending charge)

S  22  +6
D  16  +3
C  16  +3			
I  12  +1			
W  17  +3			
CH  18  +4			

Fort: +13  (+4 vs poison)		
Ref: +12
Will: +8

Init +7
Move 30’, 60’ flying (feathered wings.)  Low-light vision.
_Immune to acid, cold, disease, & electricity._

Hit Points:  130

BAB: +13/+8/+3
With _Godguard_: +22/+17/+12, 1d8+10 (+2d6 vs evil), 17-20/x2  (+1d6 sneak attack?)

Feats: Alertness, combat reflexes, expertise, improved critical (longsword), improved initiative, iron will, weapon focus (longsword), weapon specialization (longsword), 

Skills: diplomacy +8, intimidate +8, knowledge (siegecraft) +15, listen +9, perform (trumpet) +8, profession (mason) +10, search +13, sense motive +15, spot +17

Class abilities:

•	Sneak attack +1d6
•	Harm’s Way: You can switch places with your charge if you are within 5’ of him and he is attacked.
•	Defensive strike +3: You may make an AoO against any adjacent opponent who attacks your charge in melee. This attack is made with the listed competence bonus to hit.
•	Deflect attack +3: Once per round when your charge is attacked, you may make an opposed attack roll. You gain a competence bonus to your attack roll as indicated on the table. If you beat the attacker, you deflect the blow. 

Spell-like abilities (at character lvl.)
At will:  _light.  3/day:  prot vs evil_
1/day:  _bless, aid, detect evil, cure serious wounds_ (worshippers of Calphas only), _neutralize poison _(worshippers of Calphas only), _holy smite, remove disease_ (worshippers of Calphas only), _hallow_

*Longsword +2, holy* (_Godguard_): as a one minute action, allows wielder to merge with charge’s shadow, intangible but seeing and hearing normally. May emerge as a free action. DR 20/+1 while in shadow form.

*Mithral chain shirt +3* (+7 AC)

*Shield +3 *(+5 AC)

Personality:  Cruciel suffers from pride. She has been instructed to guard Velendo as a lesson in humility, abasing herself as a servant of a mortal, and no matter how attentive and devoted she is the punishment still rankles.  She tends to personally condemn sinners and exceeds her authority in rewarding the faithful. In her current task, she usually prefers to blend in with Velendo’s shadow and not draw undue attention.  Cruciel is credited with giving the secret of the arch to mortals, and for teaching them the secrets of defensive siegecraft.  Her task as divine bodyguard is partially to pay for these lapses, and partially to pay for the willfulness that inspired them.

---

Note: Cruciel does not have access to several spell-like abilities (dispel evil, holy aura, holy word) normally available to half-celestials.


----------



## Greybar

Mechanism-wise, is she a cohort to Velendo or a special plot-related NPC?

John


----------



## Piratecat

She's his new cohort. She's not especially used to having flesh, and that may cause some trouble - we'll have to see.  

Cause y'know, what we REALLY need is another NPC in the group! That's why she has _Godguard_ - she can stay out of the way when we're worrying about other things, yet stay close enough to still protect him. It seems to work fairly well.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman

Fantastic stuff. Really interesting use of the Devoted Defender PrC.

BTW, have the Paladins acquired the Radiant Servant PrC yet, in game, because from what I've read it doesn't appear so. How close are they to it?


----------



## Benben

Guardian angels hiding in people's shadows is something I will definitely be stealing for my campaign.  I'm surprised you added that ability to the sword, instead of swapping out some of the Half-Celestial powers.

It also adds an interesting twist to an old moral homily about a variable number of footprints in sand.


----------



## Piratecat

Tallarn said:
			
		

> *BTW, have the Paladins acquired the Radiant Servant PrC yet, in game, because from what I've read it doesn't appear so. How close are they to it? *




They have, but I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't recount it in the story hour. The moment passed while they were in Akin's Throat, and I was so anxious to finish up to this point that I haven't written it yet.

I'll cover it in a flashback, I think.


----------



## Burne

Just read the SH (the God's fall), and my overwhelming feeling was "Huh" Could you enlighten us faithful readers as to why such a thing happened? As the "Goddess of the Hunt" who slew Umbrelee wasn't mentioned by name I assume that she doesn't patron any of the PC's/NPC's.  I suppose the Umb was being hunted for the whole Blotting out the Sun thing, but it doesn't seem to jive with some of the other things that are going on.  The lack of reaction from the White Kingdom (who may be controlled by Umb's son) also seemed strange.  This little twist seemed to come out of the blue as it were.

Thanks for any clarification you can offer.

I do like the new Cohort for Velendo, very cool.


----------



## Piratecat

*blink* Really? Whoops!  I've been trying to foreshadow it for months. Clearly, it doesn't hold together as well when strung out over lots and lots of posts, as opposed to a relatively few games. Drat - I was trying to avoid the feeling of total surprise, because I wanted to play fair and give the players clues that they could use to figure out what was happening.

Note that Imbindarla is the goddess of undeath and the Foul Things that Crawl in Darkness; Galanna, Tao's goddess, is the goddess of the hunt.  I don't have Umberlee (the Forgotten Realms bitch-queen goddess of the sea) in my world, as cool as she is.

Here's a few of the lead-up bits:

1. Mara told her church superiors that someone or something was diverting divinations related to Saint Aleax. She believed it was divine interference.

2. When emerging from the null-time demiplane of Kodali's Retreat (where they trained), the group was confronted by an avatar of the sun god Aeos. He told them that Imbindarla had directly interfered with his church, that he had learned of it because of the Defenders, and a divine war had begun that would throw her from her divine throne.

3. The God War resulted in periods of utter darkness and periods of the sun standing still in the sky, along with horrible thunder. Velendo cast a selfless _miracle_, donating 5000 xp for no other purpose but to help the good Gods win.

4. Silissa's prophecies are loaded with hints.

5. Tao woke up a week ago with a sore arm, a reverberation from Galanna's divine archery. The chest pain people all over the world (including the PCs) have experienced repeatedly is an echo of Imbindarla's suffering; likewise, the repeated vertigo experienced more than a dozen times by party members is an echo of the Goddess falling.

6. The white worms dropping from the ceiling, as well as the early beetle run, are the loathsome creatures of darkness responding to Imbindarla's death.

7. Stone Bear's spirits (Elder in particular) has been dropping hints.

8. Velendo's and Tao's communes have explicitly discussed an upcoming disaster.

9. The pit fiend alluded to upcoming problems with interplanar travel.

10. A _sending_ from the army of the sun mentioned bad omens and people dying from falling damage while they slept.

11. Nulloc (and the letter from Murliss) explicitly mentioned that the ghouls were terribly worried about omens, and didn't know how to interpret them.

12. I hinted that Tao suspected a goddess was going to die (note the speech by her gated-in solar), but she thought it would be Galanna, not Imbindarla.

There's more, but I think that's a pretty good cross-section. It may not have carried over enough in the story hour, but in-game I tried to give lots and lots of subtle omens and hints that something really horrible was about to happen. I also worked to give the warnings enough scope that it would be clear to someone who thought about it that it could _only_ be something divine, because nothing else could cause concurrent omens on that sort of a scale.

Clearly, no one walked up to the Defenders and said, "Hey, there's a mostly-dead goddess falling to earth! What the heck is up with that?" I figured the climactic moment would be a lot more powerful if they could figure it out and then experience it for themselves, instead of being told. There are also in-game reasons for no divine warning, but those are mostly rationalizations for making a cool surprise.  

Don't assume that there was no response from the White Kingdom. They were certainly doing something - but exactly what is a great big spoiler, and it might not be what you'd expect them to do. Huh.  You've got a good point; why weren't they doing something epic to save their dying goddess? That's an _excellent_ question, and it's one that my players haven't asked yet.

Anyways, did Imbindarla's death surprise other folks? Now I'm really curious if it came out of left field for everyone!


----------



## Greybar

Cheers for Piratecat!

Much as I love them (and my players may groan) I love prophecies and other such clues.  They can be a pain in the ass as the GM though.  Here's my take on them, as spoken by an NPC in my game recently:

_"There can be a prophesy for anything you care to name.  I could ask Tala for a prophecy by which I could become Matriarch of Highlake.  However, I might not be willing to pay the price required to fulfill the prophesy.  Many people have felt that a prophesy meant that they could not fail.  They usually die."_
- The Head Librarian of Highlake, Priestess of Tala
(Tala = Goddess of Knowledge and Secrets, Matriarch = leader of the ruling house of a city)

John


----------



## Gidien

Hey PCat, great updates! Well, I think the terrible disaster was well foreshadowed, omens fit, etc, so it's not such a big surprise in that sense...

What does make it feel a little bit out of left field is that Galanna's motivations haven't been explained... her just blasting another god is a bit sudden. If Aeous had killed Imbindarla back during the battle, it wouldn't have been a surprise. But's it's been a while in game time right? So it seems a little bit out of the blue, as far as why it would happen. Just my take. Maybe all will be revealed in the next few updates. Until then.


----------



## Burne

I totally agree that a great disaster was foretold, and that clearly it involved powerful and perhaps divine forces, I just wasn't looking at Imbindarla as the source.  I was expecting her evil undead kid, or the raising of some other great evil. Not one hitting the ground.  I just didn't get the impression that a God War was raging as we speak. Shrug, limits of the medium perhaps.  Dispite my own confusion, you should know that you do a great job, and I greatly enjoy reading your SH.

Since the topic of Velendo's miracle has come up, could you tell us what it accomplished? Will Velendo ever get to know?

Off topic, a strange book but interesting "Towing Jevhovah" by James Morrow has God falling to earth as its central theme.  Not really useful but a good book worth reading.

Thanks for your reply and the great Story Hour.


----------



## Jeremy

Very nice.  Though I'm scared what 30 seconds of no magic unleashed.  The door that the dwarf was defending for all eternity for one..  The magic bindings that keep the worms from getting loose and eating the world for another.  There must be many such bound demons and monsters and forces that suddenly all got a 30 second shot.

It's like when they shut the grid down in Ghostbusters.  All hell broke loose.


----------



## the Jester

I had surmised that a god was dying, but was thinking it would be Galanna, since Tao had the chest pain thingy, and was afraid it might be Calphas, since Velendo's divinations had been answered by a different voice than usual (I believe that was his new cohort, right?)

Oh, the real giveaway for me was when somebody _else_ mentioned Requiem for a God- which I subsequently bought due to my curiousity about what's going on in PC's game!  

Next time I'm out your way, I _have_ to get in on a Defenders session...


----------



## Kaodi

*Imbindarla*

Being the particularily inobservant chap that I am, I certainly didn't see it coming. As for the suggestion as to why the ghouls weren't trying to do something about it... well, maybe they want her corpse for something, who knows, . Maybe undead goddesses get less un, and more dead, but come back for another beating.


----------



## GreyShadow

I didn't pick it.  Must pay more attention next time PC kills off a God. 

My questions: 
Where did she hit ground?
Are you using Monte's Requiem for a God?


----------



## Ashy

Jeremy said:
			
		

> *Very nice.  Though I'm scared what 30 seconds of no magic unleashed.  The door that the dwarf was defending for all eternity for one..  The magic bindings that keep the worms from getting loose and eating the world for another.  There must be many such bound demons and monsters and forces that suddenly all got a 30 second shot.
> 
> It's like when they shut the grid down in Ghostbusters.  All hell broke loose.   *




::shudder::  EXCELLENT point......   

Fantastic as always, PC!


----------



## Zustiur

I also found myself quite surprised by the death of Imbrindala. Mind you, I had given up on trying to predict anything in this story hour long ago.

It was definately obvious something was going to happen. but.... when Elder was saying "it will arrive any second now" I was basically assuming, yeah yeah, another tough monster, like they haven't fought enough just lately.

I guess my real problem is the falling and the divine factor didn't link up in my head.

Zustiur.


----------



## RangerWickett

Well _I_ thought it was cool.  That's what great about good prophecies:  you can never guess what they mean, and when you finally find out, you slap yourself for not seeing the answer.

I think the Defenders will start regularly adding another question whenever they commune:

"Anybody die up there lately?"


----------



## Morte

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Don't assume that there was no response from the White Kingdom. They were certainly doing something - but exactly what is a great big spoiler, and it might not be what you'd expect them to do. Huh.  You've got a good point; why weren't they doing something epic to save their dying goddess? That's an _excellent_ question, and it's one that my players haven't asked yet.




Would this be anything to do with Dylrath's buddy who appeared on the classroom ceiling and said he had a new gig lined up?


----------



## JacktheRabbit

Jeremy said:
			
		

> *Very nice.  Though I'm scared what 30 seconds of no magic unleashed.  The door that the dwarf was defending for all eternity for one..  The magic bindings that keep the worms from getting loose and eating the world for another.  There must be many such bound demons and monsters and forces that suddenly all got a 30 second shot.
> 
> It's like when they shut the grid down in Ghostbusters.  All hell broke loose.   *





Luckily for those 30 seconds none of those dastardly creatures had access to any of their magic so you figure a huge percentage of them just cowered in terror for the 30 seconds at their loss of power.

Its not like they would know that all magic the world over just temporarily ceased to exist.


----------



## Ashy

Yea, riiiiiiiiiight.....

I mean, this is PC we are talking about here.....


----------



## Kugar

I thought that a god died, and it was probably Imbindarla, but I had the sneaking feeling she took a good guy with her.  

I did NOT really associate all the omens with a falling dying god - probably a reminant of DnD cosmologies I'm used to.  Gods don't live in the sky silly, they live on other planes.


----------



## Knight Otu

I did expect that the goddess would die (or that she already had died), but I didn't really expect her to fall.

I think a power vacuum regarding undead is the last thing that the Defenders could want. SOMETHING (or even MANY somethings) will want to fill that gap.


----------



## Galfridus

I was surprised -- in part because it's been awhile post-wise, and in part because a lot of the clues (like the falling sensation) didn't seem to have to scope and awe of a deity passing on.


----------



## Lord Pendragon

Piratecat:

I'm curious about Cruciel.  Is there a story reason why she doesn't have all the powers of her template, or did you just feel that those Half-Celestial abilities were too powerful?


----------



## Piratecat

They gave too big a boost to her ECL. I wanted her to have a certain degree of power as a bodyguard, but I didn't want her to fill the niche of some of the more powerful clerics. I agonized about this for a few minutes, then said "Screw it. She's an angel made flesh and she's an NPC; there's no reason in the world why she has to conform to normal half-celestial abilities."  Thus, I removed some of the more powerful abilities and boosted her devoted defender level a bit. I'm happy with the result, and so is Velendo.  I mean, his bodyguard is the divine being who taught mankind how to build an arch; how cool is that?  

SPOILERS ON THE CAMPAIGN'S DIRECTION BELOW - WARNING!

I'm betting some of you think I'm a great big goober for killing off the campaign's ultimate bad guy; you're just too polite to say so. Well, there's a method to my madness.

The first reason is that *I wanted to really keep the PCs off balance.*  Kill off a good god, and everything thinks you're just a jerk - plus they feel helpless because they couldn't do anything to stop it.  Kill off an evil god, though, and everyone wonders "Why?  Is there something worse waiting in the wings? Is it part of some big conspiracy? How is this going to affect our enemies?  How is this going to affect the entire world?"  It gets them thinking at the same time it invests them in the campaign world, and that's a good thing.

The second reason is that *it shakes up the campaign's rules,* and it allows me to make changes both temporary and permanent. 

Cities burning? Check. 
Horrible plague? Check. 
Loosed demons and elementals and prisoners? Check. 
Feeling of helplessness, of being part of something bigger than just themselves? Check.
Nasty side effects for ancient people being kept alive by magic? Check. 
Restructuring of both mortal and divine politics? Check.
Allows me to bring back any number of interesting demigods, such as Yuute, our friend from the temple of disease under Eversink?  Check.
Allows me to legitimately kill off a handful of NPCs?  Check.
Provides an explosion in doomsday cults?  Check.
Presents an excuse for further isolating the PCs in the underdark?  Check.
Provides changing and evolving goals for the villains? Check.
Gives a rationale for eliminating some weak undead and strengthening the ones that survive, thus making future combats fun in a different way?  Check.
It even gives me a reason to explain 3.5 spell changes, if I feel the need to.

Mostly, though, *it stops the game from getting boring.*  Look at Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. LOTS of people complain that it degenerates into a brutal meat-grinder in the Crater Ridge Mines, a nasty slog of boring death. For me, a lot of great big dungeons are like this: not enough variety of challenge, not enough change of pace. I put off running this adventure for a long time because I was afraid of it. I'm still terrified that it's going to get tedious, although I think I've now got enough worked out to avoid that.

Killing off Imbindarla changes the playing field in a way that nothing else I could think of would. I now have an excuse for restructuring the ghoulish tactics, just when the Defenders are feeling secure in their battle plans. More importantly, I'm building towards an epic conclusion with a couple of really hard choices, and I needed to raise the stakes! This did it for me.  I've done something similar a few times in the past, such as when I had mongol orcs invade and wipe out half a continent (and then had Lord Ioun kill every single one of them with a magical disease, thus providing the current set-up with the Necromancer Kings and the Church of Aeos.)  It worked pretty well.

But most importantly? It was really fun for me. I had figured out everyone's motivations and plans, and now I get to figure them out again in the new state-of-the-world. And that's fun!


----------



## Ashy

One word:

"genius."


----------



## Piratecat

Nope. but maybe "sneaky."


----------



## Benben

*"Nasty side effects for ancient people being kept alive by magic? Check. "*

Their are two people that come to mind with that bullet point.

The Dwarf defending the Black Gate.

Ioun.

Interesting.  This is huge shake up of the status quo.


----------



## Kaodi

*Rat Bastard Dungeon Master*

That is certainly some sweet stuff you have revolving in the black recesses of your twisted mind. 
I am probably wrong, but I would imagine that there is some practical use for the fading essence of a divine being, but more importantly, is Galanna going to be shunned by the other deities? I mean, god killers can't be too popular, even when they are one of the good guys.


----------



## Jeremy

Nope.  Right the first time.  Genius.


----------



## Ashy

Jeremy said:
			
		

> *Nope.  Right the first time.  Genius. *




Aye!


----------



## Talix

How about "really really really really really impressive"?  

Definitely yoinking the defender in the shadow thing - that's very cool, and I look forward to seeing her in action.  And in personality conflicts.  

I would assume that Galana made that shot with the help or at least approval of a majority of the good gods, if not all the good gods, if not a majority of all the gods.  I doubt she was a rogue force working alone.  

The whole goddess falling thing was totally a surprise to me - even at the very end with the "it's coming!" whispers, I wasn't expecting that.  However, as others have mentioned I thought it was very clear that SOMETHING was going to happen, and the omens and clues that you gave out were very well-thought-out, IMHO.  I'm just not one that picks up easily on that sort of thing.  Question: did any of your PCs pick up on it, like you were hoping they would?  Or were they as surprised as we were (what is sounds like in the story hour)?

I completely approve of this Rat Bastardness - please carry on.


----------



## Piratecat

Talix said:
			
		

> *I would assume that Galana made that shot with the help or at least approval of a majority of the good gods, if not all the good gods, if not a majority of all the gods.  I doubt she was a rogue force working alone.
> *




None of the PCs know.

That's DM Speak for "I haven't had to decide yet." My assumption is that she didn't do it alone, because she was under divine command. Probably she was ordered to, rebelled, and was forced to - I'm not sure yet. I'll decide when I figure out what's best for the story.

If I can, I'd like to work it out so that Tao has a good, legitimate reason to leave the party near the end of July. That's when Jobu moves to Las Vegas (curse her oily hide), and her PC is too complex to keep with the group as a NPC. I'm hoping to make the split an emotional climax of some kind, but haven't sussed it out yet; we'll have to see.


----------



## Kaodi

*Tao*

What if Tao were summoned by Galanna to complete some sort of holy quest to appease the other gods? The catch would be that Tao would have to go it alone because only one mortal Galanna chose would be granted safe passage into a dangerous, forbidden area of the multiverse, and a mortal just happens to be needed to complete the quest. As for what that quest is, perhaps something related to the Defenders' quest, so it would be kind of like Tao is still helping out. Just a suggestion, have to split, laters.


----------



## Eccles

In the event that Galanna is acting rogue (or is just being hunted by Gods who were in with Imbindarla), then she could come to hide out on the Prime and enlist Tao to guard _her_...


----------



## WizarDru

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *That's DM Speak for "I haven't had to decide yet." My assumption is that she didn't do it alone, because she was under divine command. Probably she was ordered to, rebelled, and was forced to - I'm not sure yet. I'll decide when I figure out what's best for the story. *




Sometimes it really helps, knowing that DMs whose work I respect often don't work out certain details until they're relevant.  I often wonder if I'm not doing enough work...especially as my players are now about to go epic.


As for Tao and Galanna, you have lots of options.  Consider this: what if Galanna DIDN'T have the sanction from the other gods to kill Imbrindarla?  Suppose, for example, that Aeos, in a fit of rage, decides that this battle must end...NOW.  He confronts and battles Imbrindarla, who bests him, while Galanna watches.  Imbrindarla, emboldened, decides to SLAY Aeos, and Galanna acts to defend Aeos, killing her before she realizes the ramifications of her action.  The potential for where this and other such solutions could lead are huge.  Suppose Calphas had to stand in judgement of Galanna, and found her guilty, along with the other good gods.  You could play this out a lot of different ways, many of which would shuffle the players around.

For that matter, exactly what happens when the goddess of death...well...dies?  Does someone assume her portfolios, or will people stop dying, or what have you?  A battle could ensue between some of the gods to try and take over her portfolios...or they could be delegated by the other gods to a new diety: perhaps an incompetent one (by divine standards).

Believe me, I didn't think it a bad idea to kill Imbrindarla.  Suprising, yes. but a good idea.


As for RtToEE, I think the big problem starts at the CRM section of the module (which, regretably, is most of it).  The Hommlet section of the module is great, and offers lots of role-playing opportunities...but once the players arrive in Rastor and begin assualting the mines, there's little opportunity for anything but kill-or-be-killed.  I'm running my group through it as a secondary game...but I'm already trying to find ways to make it more than just mindless combat (and thus giving the bard more to do).


----------



## Kugar

Idea Time.

1) No matter what, killing a god can easily escalate into a divine free for all.  As politics degrade into a series of assassinations attempts, Gelanna will become the scapegoat.
*a) Punishment ala FR Time of Troubles.*  - Gelanna's divinity id ripped from her and as mortal descendent must perform penance designed to right the wrong of killing death and bring her closer to her charges.   She flees to Tao for both help and protection.
*b) Gelanna is imprisoned* - Her demigods and celestials are taxed trying to fill in for her.  Gelanna's mortal agents have to kick it up a notch, while at the same time losing their most powerful magics because only Gelanna herself could grant them.  Tao is blessed with a fragment of her goddess's divinity and learns of a plot to destroy her imprisoned goddess.
*c) Trial by mortal.*  Remember the Odyssey?  Now imagine if your Gelanna came down to Tao herself and asked her to take up her banner, or else Nature would suffer. 

2) Life is good.  Gelanna is rewarded.  
*a) She need a bigger staff.*  Tao is chosen as a prospect to become a demigod and must undergo testing.
*b) Rebuild the Order of the Horn* It is found out that the Order of the Horn is prophesized to play a critical role in the upcoming crisis and Gelanna charges Tao with the task of building a mighty army.
*c) Perversions of nature* With more power comes more knowledge and Gelanna tells Tao there are ancient wards on the (enter big evil thing of you choice, maybe even the Worms) that were damaged by the fall.  When she made them she stipulated a set on conditions that only Tao can fulfill be met before they can be visited. 

3) Other – 
*Imbindarla* Imbindarla cults attempt to assassinate Tao, and she feels the suffering of others close to the Goddess as they are successfully assassinated, captured, and/or tortured.  Tao may feel the need to protect others, or se may chose to try to rescue the imprisoned people/souls.

That's What I came up with for now 
Kugar


----------



## BryonD

So, are all of the magic clocks in the world now blinking

12:00

12:00

12:00

????

Seriously, did magic just "skip" 30 seconds, or was it really off.  And if so, how does this impact continuing magic effects?

I don't see magic weapons or other items being harmed.  But on-going spells could be different.  For example, just think of the impact of every continual flame in the world ceasing to burn.


----------



## WizarDru

I suspect it may have been more akin to a universal anti-magic field over all of Spira.  It's difficult to say, since we haven't seen enough evidence either way.  The walls of water could be the result of a permanent magic installation, for example.  If all of the players active spells were dispelled, as opposed to just supressed, then you have your answer.

If it was the absolute loss of all active magic for thirty seconds, the effects could be catastrophic to some places.  Imagine all the things that would go mad in Eversink alone, let alone elsewhere.


----------



## JacktheRabbit

How is this for an evil idea.

A Deity of Undead is required. It is required because many form of undead are punishments and because many other forms of undead are states one can enter purely through manipulation of magic.

So while everyone may hate the fact the first real truth is you have to have a Deity of the Undead to oversee this.

Now we have the current situation. The Goddess of Undeath was killed without a clear heir in line.

This really causes the problem that undead everywhere are reclaiming their true souls and causing other grief.

So now the Gods know there is only one solution.

A new Deity of the Undead is necessary.

Who to pick for this unwelcome job?

How about the Goddess Galenna who slayed the last Goddess of Undeath without permission?

But wait. This means there is no longer a Goddess of Nature. One of those is just as needed.

Enter Tao. She is a member of the party that started the whole situation by passing the proper info along to the church of Aeos.

You can either be obvious and ascend her right in front of the party, or you can be subtle and remove her another way and let them learn as time passes about the new Goddess of Nature whose name is not Tao but whose clerics speak of her in ways that remind the party of Tao. 


How does that sound?


----------



## Greybar

Doc:
Reminds me of Zelazny's Lords of Light with the Gods being "positions" to be filled in the heirarchy - the "new" Shiva running around with the token of his old position because he's more comfortable with it, etc.  Makes it all sound silly, I know, though it wasn't in context.

So a new Goddess of Undeath that happens to prefer the use of a bow, except now it fires bone arrows...

John


----------



## Moleculo

can you say undead god bound to the new god of undead?


----------



## Kaodi

*Tao & Galanna*

That was a nasty  idea Doc, about Galanna becoming Goddess of Undeath and Tao becoming the new deity of Nature. That could probably be used in some form  in *lots* of campaigns to great effect. Some of the interesting benefits would be the conflict in t he Church of Galanna... how many of her followers would stay loyal to her, versus loyal to the post.

This morning when I posted, I didn't have time to give any more follow up ideas about a quest, but I do now so I might as well.

What if that the death of Imbrindarla caused something in the celestial balance to go offline (to speak in modern terms), causing all of the magic to be surpressed (perhaps that was  the only immediately obvious change from the players perspective, there could of been others... who can say Dungeons & Darwinism?). Anyway,  the 30 seconds later, the *backup generator* came online, and everything appeared to return to normal. The only problem is, the backup cant last forever, it was only created as a buffer, and someone is needed to restore *power* to the system. The problem is, to avoid tampering, especially divine tampering, the access to this *generator* was placed in the plane of Carceri. This could mean that either it was placed there due to the strong restrictive magics of the plane, or that the prisoners placed there were because of the original restrictive nature created for the *device*. Anyway, only a mortal (or just someone from the Prime Material  in case Tao is celestial is some way and I have forgotten) can access the power grid, and only with the permission of all remaining deities of importance. Galanna has been given the task, and she chooses Tao. And so on, and so on...

 I think I have swam down far enough under the deep end, time to come back up for air .


----------



## Burne

An simple but interesting idea is that Galanna didn't mean to kill Imbrindarla. She was commanded to "hound Imbrindarla for 40 gazillion years" and slew Imbrindarla by accident.

Possibly, Galanna was tricked into killing Imbrindarla. Perhaps Imbrindarla wasn't the one interfering with Aeos all that time ago, but someone else setting her up for a fall.

Perhaps, Galanna didn't kill Imbrindarla. That phantom shoulder pain was an echo of Galanna's pain, as some unknown god (A worm God?) disables Galanna and kills Imbrindarla.

All undead everywhere being self aware smacks of the Aeyx(sic) arc, perhaps someone wanted Imbrindarla out of the way because "Undead are people too!"

Suggestions for you.....


----------



## Khisanth the Ancient

What about, all the undead start turning into big, scary conglomerations (corpse gatherers, and say total the stats of 3 zombies (except ability scores) and make a walking corruption; i.e. 6d12+9 HD, attacks 3 slams , slam 1d6 +1, etc., you get the idea.


----------



## Bryan898

Hi, I've mostly lurked here and just read through your story hour over most of the last week and have to say you are an excellent DM with a great group of role-players.  Such creative genius is rare  

I have an idea as to what you could have happen... If you're looking for the classical approach you could have there be an evil greater evil behind Imbrindarla.  Perphaps the next most fitting person rises to gain her portfolio, a likely candidate being Kellharin.   Then he could be much much worse than Imbrindarla ever was, bringing about more problems than she ever did.  You could even push it further, creating a story that Kellharin himself created the coup.  Galanna is exiled from godship for striking down another diety and she needs Tao's help to uncover the truth and recover her portfolio and divine rank.  Meanwhile, the ghouls whom were thought defeated are now stronger than ever.  The Defenders must defend against the onslaught of ghouls and prove Kellharin's crime at the same time.  It seems the Defenders already have a hatred for Kellharin, perphaps now they can hate him much more.


----------



## Talix

The deviousness level in this thread is rather frightening!


----------



## Piratecat

I agree.  

Actually, I read recently about a spell that makes zombies into fireball traps; kill one, and it blows up.  Anyone remember where that was?

I'm thinking of a very, very sneaky trap.

Some of the ideas above are just wonderful. I'm not planning on having Tao ascend; high fantasy or not, I'm not a big fan of PCs becoming gods. I'm sure it's a remnant of my adolescent monk/cleric/wizard who solely killed lots of "monsters" in Dieties and Demigods.  Ahem. Not that ever happened, or anything. Honest.

But thanks to you folk, I've found a way to gracefully remove her from the action and give her something meaningful to do. I think it's reasonable that people not in the know are rising up against Galanna's church. Tao will need to revive the Knights of the Horn in order to turn the tide - just the thing for a solo PC!


----------



## The Forsaken One

I had zombies/ghouls dat detonated in a blast with damage in negative energy equal to their HD...  That gave my PC's a scare from anything that might lurk around the next corner.

Kill it before it gets into ran... BOOM... crap not again....

Or if you are really feeling evil.. have a part of it be Vile damage.. 

--

Also had a spell, medium range, level 3 necromancy, that had corses explode with negative energy (or part vile..) and dmg anyone withni XX feet (30 ft radius burst I believe) with damage equal to the HD of the creature. This HD type would be of the creatures type so Humans would get d4's dmg, 11th level wizard would explode into 11d4, but a 11th level barb would also explode into it. It's a bit weird I know but just using species HD make it work and balanced it abit.

And as one of your creations once had, it strengthens the other undead 2...


----------



## (Psi)SeveredHead

> Actually, I read recently about a spell that makes zombies into fireball traps; kill one, and it blows up. Anyone remember where that was?




Corpse Explosion from Diablo?


----------



## Olive

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Actually, I read recently about a spell that makes zombies into fireball traps; kill one, and it blows up.  Anyone remember where that was?*




It's not the corpsebomb thing from RttToEE?


----------



## The Forsaken One

Just inspire yourself with Infested Terrans from the Starcraft PC Game.

Worked for me


----------



## Kaodi

*Exploding People*

No way. The only place it can be at is Deja Vu's exploding civilians. I seem to remember that this has special relevance to a particular member of the group.


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot

I think the spell you're thinking of is *Unliving Weapon*, a 3rd level cleric spell in the Book of Vile Darkness that causes 1 undead creature to explode for 1d6 damage/caster level in a 10 ft. radius if it takes 1 point of damage.  Tell me if you need the specifics though, I'd be glad to help


----------



## sithramir

*zombies*

Zombies that blow up with fireballs when killed are called melts. They are out of Dragon's Ascension from Ed Greenwood. As to a spell that replicates it I dunno. Maybe some mix of a contingency/delayed blast fireball or something or your own making could do the trick?


----------



## Piratecat

Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> *I think the spell you're thinking of is Unliving Weapon, a 3rd level cleric spell in the Book of Vile Darkness that causes 1 undead creature to explode for 1d6 damage/caster level in a 10 ft. radius if it takes 1 point of damage.  Tell me if you need the specifics though, I'd be glad to help  *




Yay!!  This is what I remembered.

I have a very sneaky trap in the works...

And you'll be pleased to know that I'm writing an update even as we speak.


----------



## Elocin

There is also a CR 1 ( I think ) demon in Book of Vile Darkness that I especially love as well.  They die really easily but they have a SU called Aura of Retribution.  What this aura does is strikes back at the creature or creatures attacking it.  Anybody in a 30' radius takes half the damage that was dealt to the creature.  I used this once as the Monk goes charging in and hits the thing and get hurts and figures our what is going on just as the Wizard casts a fireball centered on him.  He was not a happy camper but I was laughing my ass off the entire time.

Mind you I forget the what the demons are called but I am pretty sure they are in the BoVD.


----------



## Seravin

That would be a Jovoc from the MMII - but they're a CR5.
Nasty critters.  Look kind of like hairless, demonic, children with outsized claws dripping blood.  They leave no doubt that they are evil. 

I can attribute the death of one party member to the overzealousness of the party fighters in attacking a small group of those things.  Next time I'll have to cover them in illusions though.

I like 'em.


----------



## The Forsaken One

Pkitty, are you planning on confronting the Party with an Illithid Savant? (From savage species)

If not I could make one up if you'd specify at which CR you'd like it....  (I got an affinity for Formians and Illithid, my favorite critters )


----------



## thatdarncat

Hey pkitty, I was just reading the early years thread, and something Sialia said rang a bell in my head...



			
				Sialia said:
			
		

> *
> 
> It's never occurred to me before, but perhaps Rendic's ability to wander around more or less completely unnoticed by the Defenders was a sort of special ability of its own.
> 
> I mean, yeah sure, he was there at all those things you listed, but I can't remember him being there, and I was also Alix's apprentice.
> 
> Probably if he was in a postion to scoop up Alix's assets, so was I and I never thought of it which is really unusual for me to miss an angle like that. Alix would have been so disappointed in me.
> 
> Got to look in on old pal Rendic one of these days. If I can just remember to get around to it . . . *




Could this have anything to do with a missing royal heir?


----------



## Talix

Evil demonic children with a _thorns_ aura?  I like it!


----------



## Kaodi

*Shelter*

Now that Calphas' Comfortable Castle is for the time being no longer viable for sleeping in, have the Defenders been seeking out naturally occuring campsites, or are they making use of weaker, non-extradimensional spells like Leomund's Secure Shelter, just to make things a little safer? At least on the bright side, Velendo will have one more ninth level slot available for crushing surprise attacks at night, hehehehe...


----------



## Piratecat

1. I'll go read "illithid savant." This evening, an illithid did something very, very naughty.  

2. Rendic had the 2e equivalent of the same feats Priggle has, "low profile" (or whatever it's called) and "contemptible target." He was forever being forgotten. He did in fact steal all of Alix's assets - until he was hunted down and killed by T'Cri.

3. They're using their Daern's Instant Fortress, the Flickering Needle. In tonight's game, they slept out unprotected for the first time in virtually years.

4. I just have to crow a little bit. Tonight showed some of the best roleplaying I've seen since Malachite and the encounter with Sir Aleax. It was simply stunning.  I'm only afraid that I won't be able to capture it in print!


----------



## Kaodi

*Roleplaying*

We have faith in you, PirateCat!


----------



## The Forsaken One

> 1. I'll go read "illithid savant." This evening, an illithid did something very, very naughty.



I like that 

On the WotC site there is an example EPIC Illithid Savant, just for any inspiration if you want to make one up yourself. Else I'd be glad to create anyone with any cohorts or other critters around if as you please. Give me  CR or an EL and it shall be done 
(And if you want it min maxed or not  Which technically doesn't do anything about the CR of something but the effect might differ slightly )

I had a blast 2 days ago when my party and their allies in a camp got attack by loads of formians lead by a couple of Formian Observers and Taskmasters 

They didn't know anything about observers and stuff... my god they ran they ran...


=====================================



"The sentries spotted them on in the rocky hills that surrounded our encampment -- these huge ant creatures that just . . . watched us . . . with cold, black eyes. Our archers scared them off for a little while, but they eventually returned in different locations. We thought them harmless until, without warning, this massive wave of bigger, more horrifying creatures came spilling over the cliffs, taking out our defenses with ease. It was is if they knew how we were going to react before we even knew it ourselves!"

-- Excerpt from the court-martial of former Knight-Sergeant Covuss Dall

The legions that make up the formian race comprise numerous castes. Some of these are never seen outside their complex hive-cities, while others appear with alarming regularity. Each caste performs a highly specialized role, sacrificing individuality and personality to benefit the rest of a specific hive and the formian race. Among these castes is the dreaded formian observer.

Observers are seen often, acting as the eyes and ears of the hive. They gather information around cities, keeping a close watch for anything that could be considered dangerous. Observers are some of the first formians to be found in other lands, scouting out terrain and possible resistance in advance of an invading army. Communities unfortunate enough to find themselves the target of a marauding formian army would be wise to eliminate as many observers as possible, as quickly as possible.

The mind of an observer can discern the strengths and weaknesses of a subject simply by watching him or her for a few moments. Observers watch subtle body movement, facial cues, and gross movement to deduce tactics, strategies, and fighting style. 

Observers defer to myrmarchs and will either give or receive orders from taskmasters, based on the directives given by myrmarchs. Because of their unique abilities, they form the tactical intelligence in any attack, showing their kin the best methods to deal with intruders. They are never found alone, but rather travel in small groups with other observers or with a mixed platoon of warriors and workers. Because of the unique status of observers, the other castes do their best to protect them from harm, fighting with ferocity matched only when the queen is threatened. However, should an observer ever find itself alone and outnumbered, it will remain watching the intruders, passing along useful information to the hive until help arrives or it is killed.

An observer is constantly on the move, stopping only to rest briefly and eat. Anyone viewing one of these creatures from above would realize that its reconnaissance makes a perfect spiral around the hive, extending up to fifty miles away from the city center. Upon spotting an intruder, observers freeze for as long as possible, sizing up the potential opponent and passing along the information to the rest of the hive. If attacked or approached in a threatening manner, they flee to any sheltered spot where they can maintain sight of the target. Should multiple observers face different intruders, each one tracks a separate target, giving a tremendous tactical advantage to the warriors, taskmasters, and myrmarchs who will come in to eliminate the threat.

In rare instances, observers actually talk to intruders. They try to glean as much information as possible and stall for time until more formians can arrive to deal with the situation. Survivors of such meetings claim that observers are extremely logical and cold, and can deduce the intentions of someone with alarming speed.

Observer, Formian
Medium-Size Outsider (Lawful)
Hit Dice: 9d8+18 (58 hp)
Initiative: +6 
Speed: 40 ft.
AC: 17 (+2 Dex, +5 natural)
Attacks: Sting +10 melee
Damage: Sting 2d4+1 plus poison
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Poison, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: All-around vision, evaluation, hive mind, immunities, outsider traits, resistances, telepathy, SR 23
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +10
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 19, Cha 17
Skills: Climb +13, Craft (any one) +10, Diplomacy +11, Hide +14, Intuit Direction +16, Listen +18, Move Silently +14, Search +20, Sense Motive +16, Spot +22
Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Track
Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground
Organization: Team (2-4), or platoon (2-4 plus 7-18 workers and 6-11 warriors)
Challenge Rating: 11
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always lawful neutral
Advancement: 10-12 HD (Medium-size); 13-18 HD (Large)

Observers are slightly smaller than taskmasters and noticeably weaker. They have two sets of eyes -- one set is very large; another, smaller set is located on the sides of their heads and grants them 360° vision. The antennae of observers are much larger and more sensitive than those of other castes. Their arms end in small, delicate hands used for manipulation rather than combat.

Like taskmasters, observers lack mandibles and mouths of any kind, speaking only through telepathy. Observers know Formian and Common.

COMBAT

Observers do their best to avoid melee. They remain in the background, deducing the behavior, intent, and tactics of intruders for the benefit of the other formians to exploit. In addition to their evaluation ability (see below), observers try to determine how much and what kind of magic intruders might possess.

Evaluation (Ex): The incredible minds of observers evaluate and break down the strengths and weaknesses of enemies in mere moments. For each full round of combat in which an observer can actually see (magical means, including clairvoyance, do not work) a single opponent, each formian in contact with the hive mind gains a +1 insight bonus to attacks against that opponent. This effect is cumulative for each round of combat and does not have a limit. The effect lasts until the observer is killed, knocked unconscious, blinded, or cannot see the target for one full round. This bonus begins again as soon as the observer sees the intruder again, starting at +1 per round. There is no additional bonus if multiple observers watch the same target. Formians can process information from any number of observers watching multiple targets.

All-Around Vision (Ex): Observers are exceptionally alert and circumspect. Their double set of unblinking eyes grants them a +4 racial bonus to Spot and Search checks, and they can't be flanked.

Hive Mind (Ex): All formians within 50 miles of their queen are in constant communication. If one is aware of a particular danger, they all are. If one in a group is not flat-footed, none of them are. No formian is considered flanked unless all of them are.

Poison (Ex): Sting, Fortitude save (DC 16); initial and secondary damage 1d6 temporary Intelligence. If forced into combat, observers try to use their poison on obvious spellcasters first.

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): At will -- charm monster, clairaudience/clairvoyance, detect chaos, detect magic, detect thoughts, see invisibility, true seeing. These abilities are as the spells cast by a 12th-level sorcerer (save DC 13 + spell level).

Telepathy (Su): An observer can communicate telepathically with any intelligent creature within fifty miles of whose presence it is aware.

Outsider Traits: Darkvision 60 ft.; cannot be raised or resurrected (though a wish or miracle spell can restore life).

Immunities (Ex): Formians have poison, petrification, and cold immunity.

Resistances (Ex): Formians have fire, electricity, and sonic resistance 20.


----------



## Kaodi

*Observers*

That's just nasty, like fighting opponents that gain a level every single round. It's a good thing they don't get +1 to AC as well! hehehe.... though you could make that a house rule. It would make sense too, if you gain that kind of bonus because you know how your opponent moves, it *should* work both ways... Ghoulish Formian Observers... nasty...

On the other hand, this kind of bonus really should be limited by either the fighting formians intelligence, or their dexterity. Just 'cause you know what someone is going to do, doesn't mean you have an infinite ability to capitalize on it.


----------



## The Forsaken One

Formian intelligence is irrellivant, I'm sure you can guess why.

As for the rest... it is still an insight bonus afterall so... don't see the problem.

As for the Illithid Savant. I'm sure the Defenders (and any other PC's while I'm at it) would be mighty surprised by an Illithid with Damage Reduction, Spellcasting abilities, Lore, the Smite evil or smite good ability and regeneration 5 (fire and acid).

One of the best PrC's I've ever seen and by far my favorite. The flavor is just awsome and it is just so right for an Illithid. Just my 2 cents =]


----------



## Kaodi

*Hiveminds*

This is more of a if fantasy were fact type of question, but hey, who cares, right? 

Anyway, if you had a species, like the Formians, wouldn't their individual intelligence scores still affect how well they process the information fed to them by the Hive? 

And while we're on the topic, if that thing about Hive intelligence were literally translated, wouldn't Hive creatures be like infinitely powerful wizards, clerics, druids, sorcerers and bards?


----------



## The Forsaken One

Read the Formian entry in the MM, it specifically states that they are capable of very impressive and harmonious battle plans and maneuvers through use of the Hivemind and being directed by the more powerfull and intelligent broods.

============

And PC, you might wanna hit their Instant Fortress with this if you really want to annoy them ^^

Quagmire Vortex
Evocation [Earth, Water]
Level: Drd 9
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 80-ft.-radius spread
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No

This devastating spell can be cast only in swampy or muddy environments; the entirety of the spell's spread must be located in this terrain or the spell fails.

When cast, the bog in this area lurches into a sluicing life, forming a vortex made of mud and peat not unlike a huge whirlpool. The violent churning motion of the vortex knocks down creatures, collapses structures, and inexorably pulls anything caught in its area toward its center.

Each creature standing in the area must make a Reflex save (DC 15) each round they remain in the area or fall down. Structures in the area take 50 points of damage per round. Any creature caught inside a structure that collapses takes 8d6 points of bludgeoning damage (Reflex DC 15 half) and is pinned beneath the rubble. A creature pinned beneath rubble takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage per minute while pinned. If a pinned creature falls unconscious, he or she must make a Constitution check (DC 15) or take 1d6 points of lethal damage each minute thereafter until freed or dead. Unfortunately, pinned creatures may be in for an even more terrible fate as they are drawn toward the center of the vortex.

Each round, all creatures that have fallen down and all structures that have collapsed move in the same circular pattern around the center of the vortex at a speed of 30. Each round, this motion draws objects 10 feet closer to the vortex's center.

Creatures on the ground that have not been knocked prone move in this manner as well, but this movement does not count against their maximum movement for the round, and, on their turn, such creatures can take move actions to move in any direction they wish. The thick mud reduces the base land speed of Large or smaller creatures to 5 feet, and it does not hinder creatures larger than this. If a creature has a natural swim speed, it may use this speed instead while in the mud.

Once an object or creature reaches the center of the vortex, it is pulled down into the mud at a rate of 30 feet per round to a maximum depth of 80 feet. Creatures pulled into the mud begin to drown whenever they can no longer hold their breath (see the Swim skill description in Chapter 4 of the Player's Handbook, and Drowning in Chapter 8 of the Dungeon Master's Guide). Characters held below the surface of the vortex can swim back toward the surface with a successful Swim Check (DC 35 + 1 per consecutive round of being under the surface).

Once the spell's duration ends, the vortex instantly calms. Trees and other natural vegetation are naturally returned to their positions before the vortex began, but creatures and artificial objects (including ruined structures) pulled down into the vortex become imprisoned in the mud; living creatures that do not have burrowing speeds quickly suffocate if not rescued.


----------



## Talix

Quagmire Vortex - Yikes!  That's a pretty scary spell.    Balanced well, of course, in that any high-level character with a means to fly or otherwise transport itself isn't in any danger, plus the fact that it must be cast in mud.  But still - it certainly would be very impressive to witness!


----------



## The Forsaken One

Well what it would do in conjunction with an Earthquake and a control winds and control water does bother me...

And put that underground... A little 3 high level druid group.. shrug...


----------



## Dakkareth

And even a _mass fly_ or two won't suffice for that small dwarven army they have along


----------



## The Forsaken One

> Each creature standing in the area must make a Reflex save (DC 15) each round they remain in the area or fall down.




I houseruled it to be a Reflex save each round they remain in the area or fall down. A set DC this low for a 9th level spell is too useless and limits it to target structures.

With a reflex save equal of that to the Druid it makes it more combat directed and nothing too imbalanced. Fly spells and other stuff and plenty about and it's enviromentally dependant which is another pain. When a druid is able to use this puppy it should be a decent spell IMHO and not one with a pansy DC 15 static reflex save.

Making it a Blance check with a set DC ipv a Reflex save would be fine as well. I preferred the Reflex save myself.


----------



## Steverooo

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Anyways, did Imbindarla's death surprise other folks? Now I'm really curious if it came out of left field for everyone! *




I knew she was falling; figured Aeos had speared her, and that, dying as she fell, she had cursed the Defenders (or, later, the world) with her own suffering...  I thought the worms were immature C'thonnians, though!  Kept expecting Shud M'ell to crack open a world-shattering earthquake!  Never caught on about the beetles, though.  (Are you sure you mentioned that Imbindarla was goddess of crawling things in darkness?  If so, I missed it!)

Anyway, her son (or someone) was certainly ready for the fall...  The "Fall of Magic" only lasted 30 seconds, so SOME(ONE/THING) took up the mantle!


----------



## Piratecat

Several things were ready to take up the mantle.  

It's odd to think that in less than ten sessions, this whole adventure will be over.  Lord knows what the result will be, though. The PCs make some wrong choices, and some very bad stuff could happen to the whole world.

Ought to be interesting.

As for that hive-minded merc group, I don't have much in the way of stats for them. I always figured that each other hive-member present gives everyone a bonus on various skills and attacks. There's also a link for hit points, where any wounds get split up between the group. To be honest, it's never come up before now, so I've just hand-waved it as I went for the cool effect.


----------



## Elocin

Ummm, excuse me I must have heard that wrong.  Did you say "Less than 10 sessions left", I know I must have heard you wrong, cause, cause, what the hell are we to do after that?  How on earth can society go on without a Piratecat Story Hour to read?

That just can not be, we will not stand for it!!!  We will mutiny or something and everyone from the ENworld Community will protest outside of your house, you will never sleep again, which would really be ironic now wouldn't it. 

Umm, yea anyway, all kidding aside, I guess we do have about another year before you finish with the frequency of your updates    Anyway what do you plan on running after the Defenders?


----------



## Greybar

No, no.  He said "this adventure", not "this campaign"

right.

right?

john


----------



## Piratecat

Right.

After the group finishes dealing with the ghouls, they'll have a few mind flayer problems to mop up (or so I'm guessing), and they'll have to deal with the aftermath of what they've done. Whatever that might be.

then most likely it's off to the outer planes to sort out Agar's impending nuptials. And after that, there's this king's son who everyone thinks never existed....

The problem is, I could keep going indefinitely. I won't, though. KidC will probably temporarily retire Nolin and play a psionic telepath for a while, by way of a change; we'll have to see what happens.

I don't have anything planned beyond what's listed above; that's roughly a year's worth of games. After that, I'll most likely start a new campaign!

That stage is going to be tough. I may use AU, I may set things in my current world, I may create a new campaign world with a dramatically reduced planar structure. I really don't know yet.


----------



## Elocin

Sweet, that's what I want to hear.

Thank you.


----------



## Kaodi

*Campaign*

When you could indefinately carry on a great and interesting campaign, that is a major testament to your skills. Congratulations PirateCat. Talk about the end of an era though, your Defenders of Daybreak story hour must be the most widely and most religiously read, ever.


----------



## spyscribe

*Regarding the 30-second magic blackout.*

I was chatting with WLS the other day, and the question came up: during the 30 seconds of nil-magic, did everyone suddenly remember the missing royal heir of Gaunt?

And would they all have spontaneously forgotten when magic came back, or would they remember until they tried to think or talk about him?

Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## The Forsaken One

> I was chatting with WLS the other day, and the question came up: during the 30 seconds of nil-magic, did everyone suddenly remember the missing royal heir of Gaunt?



Oeee... nice one...

This storyhour needs more Swarm in it, that's the only thing thats missing. Some stray zerglings or something would do the trick though


----------



## howandwhy99

> This storyhour needs more Swarm in it, that's the only thing thats missing. Some stray zerglings or something would do the trick though  [/B]




Funny you should mention that.  I'm actually working on a monster called a Pebbleswarm.  (med-sized elemental [swarm of fine and diminutive creatures])

The core concept is an neutral INT 4 flying swarm of stones fist-size and smaller that can pummel a character.  It's posed as more of a pest really, than a monster.  Currently, it's at CR 4 with plenty of immunities.  I'm giving it a special ability to pick up other unattended objects and debris.  More psionic abilities to follow.

Once I'm finished though, I could create a Boulderswarm.  This would pick up creatures not tied down (like a colossal rock windstorm) and destroy close to everything in its path.


----------



## The Forsaken One

Play Starcraft and learn about real Swarms


----------



## Sialia

This is too fabulously cool to not share around.

http://www.kopalnia-wieliczka.pl/english/galeria.htm

"Salt Mine Wieliczka  . . . is the oldest enterprise of salt industry on Polish land. For ages it was a source of polish treasury and material fundament of culture  . . . Over 700 years of mining  . . . Hidden below the town, situated on 9 levels, reaching 327 m deep Wieliczka underground is nearly 300 km of galleries and 3000 chambers.  . . . Magnificent chapels, captivating underground lakes, original tools and equipment, traces of mining works give the comprehension about people's fight against the elements, their work, passion and beliefs. Wieliczka miners left lots of salt carvings and murals."

There's also a room full of carvings of dwarves, mining. And an underground health clinic. And "the world's only restaurant to be situated 125 metres under the ground," although it's not 100% salt--they've covered it in parquet flooring, much like Dylrath's mirror room.

If you click on the panorama picture, you can pan up and down, zoom in and zoom out, speed up andslow down until you want to throw up.  And there's lots of still shots of the cathedral, too.

If Piratecat doesn't have a use for this in _his_ underdark, will somene else _please_ please steal it?

Thanks!


----------



## Ashy

FREKA-DELIC!  Consider it YOINKED!  Thanks, Sialia!


----------



## Kaodi

**Bump**

*BUMP, BUMP*

Can't let a thread that has been at times a source of so much activety fall off the radar. We need a new challenge, or tidbit to argue, eh, PirateCat?


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

My parents visited those salt mines in Poland about seven or eight years ago, and I've used similar things - but I'd never seen a good source for images of the place!  Thanks, Sialia, that really brings home just what the place actually looks like.  Pretty impressive.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

My parents visited those salt mines in Poland about seven or eight years ago, and I've used similar things - but I'd never seen a good source for images of the place!  Thanks, Sialia, that really brings home just what the place actually looks like.  Pretty impressive.


----------



## Piratecat

Those salt mine ideas are great. I've actually been to an underground salt mine/cathedral, in Zipaquira' Colombia. It was amazing.

So, here's something to discuss: Poor Agar. Engaged to a devil! I have some ideas why, but let me ask you: WHY would a devil want to marry an alienist/diviner/planewalker so badly that they arranged a marriage when he was just a toddler?

I'll be excited to hear your ideas.


----------



## arwink

Because one of Agar's ancestors created a gate between the far realms and the prime plane, one that could only be opened with the blood of his line that has been awakened through contact with creatures from the far realms.  The portal can only be opened by one of the ancestors line, and only if said family member has had a certain amount of prior contact with the far realms (to provent the portal from being accidently opened and dooming the world).  Agar needs to be willing to open it, so they can't just kill him and spill his blood on the portal.

Surely Agar didn't choose to follow this alienist thing all on his own, did he?  All sorts of subtle manipulations and suggestions have been floating around his skull since childhood, pushing him into further contact with the realms (left to his own devices, he would have been a baker).

So - 

The demon's in question serve a master who draws power from insanity, so setting up a permanent portal slowly increases the creep of insanity in the world.

*or*

The demons serve the elven wizard trapped in the far realms (mentioned in the Manual of the Planes entry).  He wants out, and he doesn't really care who he has to hurt to do so.

This, of course, may be too planar-invasiony after the underground lair of the ghouls.

Perhaps Agar's son is meant to be boy-child that the evil fey were waiting for in the timeless fortress?  A demon-born child that will take over the fairy realm and turn it into a tangled mess of madness (A new far realms, if you will).


----------



## Kugar

Piratecat said:
			
		

> So, here's something to discuss: Poor Agar. Engaged to a demon! I have some ideas why, but let me ask you: WHY would a demon want to marry an alienist/diviner/planewalker so badly that they arranged a marriage when he was just a toddler?
> I'll be excited to hear your ideas.




Are we sure he is engaged to a Demon? What if he was engaged to a devil? How about this - 

Years ago Agar's parent's hometown was threatened by a semi-powerful demon, and Agar's parents struck a deal with an extraplanar creature to help (they actually thought/think it was a celestial, but it was a fiend) in exchange for their son's hand in marriage, or their eternal souls. They agreed and a demon/fiend conflict started.

Now at this point the village became blood-war turf and the major confrontation is coming. The fiends wanted a powerful offspring, but the demons pretty much put a stop to the consummation of the marriage by appearing to the Defenders.

Now after years of subtle conflict, the village stands in balance and what happens now could send it and all the souls contained therein to another plane. Marry and chose law over good and send it to the nine hells, not marry and condemn the parents soul couls send it to the Abyss. Of course the PCs might purposely send it to another plane first and then deal with the fiend that has the contract with Agar's parents.

Kugar


----------



## WizarDru

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Those salt mine ideas are great. I've actually been to an underground salt mine/cathedral, in Zipaquira' Colombia. It was amazing.
> 
> So, here's something to discuss: Poor Agar. Engaged to a demon! I have some ideas why, but let me ask you: WHY would a demon want to marry an alienist/diviner/planewalker so badly that they arranged a marriage when he was just a toddler?




All mortals are toddlers, in the eyes of a being who has existed for millenia.

The better question is: what does the demon expect out of it?  There are a few likely answers:


Prophecies put Agar as a lynch-pin in some greater event, and were compelling enough that the demon seeks to manipulate him to guide said event.  For example: Fraz'Urb'luu, demon prince of deception, determines that toddler Agar will grow to be responsible for choosing of the new goddess of death following the fall of Imbrindarla (Note: _I didn't say the prophecy had to be *correct*._)  Hoping to encourage the event so that he can place agents to take advantage of the possible outcomes (and perhaps influence that event), he plays the deep game, and makes arrangements decades ahead of time.
Agar has little to do with the actual plot, but he's a pawn on the board of other players.  What if this had nothing to do with Agar, but with Nolin, instead?  What if we discover that Nolin's father has made certain pacts that eventually lead back down to poor Agar, completely ignorant of the actual events in motion?  What if Agar's parents are the actual problem?  _"Well, son, we've been trying to find a way out of the contract for 20 years, now....we were just too embarassed to tell you.  We tried to enlist some celestials, buy out the contract, anything.  Honestly, we never thought it would actually come to this."_  Agar could just be a way to make someone else sweat or suffer...or worse, he could just be a bargaining chip in a higher-stakes game.
Something to consider is who the demon is that Agar's engaged to, and who's really behind everything.  I'm guessing that he's probably engaged to a succubus or marilith, most likely the former.  But who's pulling the strings higher up?  More than likely, the demon is merely acting on orders from a higher, more evil power.  A guess would be that the more powerful demon-prince is intent on making Agar do something he normally wouldn't do, or prevent Agar from participating in something that the demon-prince doesn't want to come to pass.


----------



## Kugar

WizarDru said:
			
		

> or prevent Agar from participating in something that the demon-prince doesn't want to come to pass.




That's just nasy.  Arrange a marriage decades ahead of time so the Defenders are tied up sorting out the mess while the demons do something nasty, or something nasty they would normally be involved in happens.  One big almost unavoidable diversion!

PS WizarDru sorry for missing you this weekend but family issues came up at the last minute


----------



## Piratecat

Doh! Pit fiend yenta = engaged to a devil, NOT a demon. My error.

As far as the Defenders know, Agar's folks DON'T know that she's a fiend.  They may be lying, though.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

All I know is, I want the Modrons to march right over the reception hall.


----------



## Ashy

Well, IMHO, you have to look at the motivations of all devils - they all want to advance in the Baatorian hierachy.  Perhaps Agar has tapped into some sort of power that he does not really know about yet; something deep inside himself that will awaken when he *bonds* with demonflesh.  Perhaps Agar himself will change and become something far more sinister and asend to a position on high within the Abyss (and of course, take his bride along for the ride - perhaps she will become a PART of him, literally - evil grin)...

Unless the DoD can stop it, of course....


----------



## Greybar

Oooh.  Devil are big on honor in their own way, right? Order and such as the path to power (oh, and evil if you must insist.

two steps:
* Spurn the wedding and the brides family will be honor-bound to avenge their wounded pride upon Agar's family.
* Technically accept the wedding and refuse to consumate it, and they'll be even more insulted.
* Accept the wedding and consumate it, and they get a cambion of great wizarding power and fiendish heritage.

john


----------



## Kaodi

*Agar*

This is kind of a mish-mash of ideas, I guess:

What if, thousands of years in the past, or even the future, a relative of Agar's was responsible for the defeat in mortal combat of a powerful and/or influential devil. In the ensuing chaos, this relative was slain, and pieces of their soul was scattered onto the winds of time, eventually lodging themselves in Agar's many ancestors and descendants. To bring back/release the slain/defeated fiend, not only must it be done by a member of Agar's family, it must also be a member of the family that had knowledge possessed only by the relative. Thus, the devil's had to spend a great deal of time learning to detect those that possessed these bits of soul, and also who had the inclination and ability to master the appropriate skills. Finally, they succeeded in identifying that person as Agar, and they have been thus preparing for the occasion ever since. In order for Agar to unlock this fiend, he is going to have to find a way to recover the lost memory of his relative, and then perform whatever ritual or ceremony is required. The devil's believed that the best way to do this was to set Agar up into some sort of marriage in which he would be forced to take a carefully worded vow, one that contained in it somehow the oath to free the fiend.

Just a thought.


----------



## Seravin

WizarDru said:
			
		

> I'm guessing that he's probably engaged to a succubus or marilith, most likely the former.




I have to disagree here.  Agar must be engaged to a Gelugon (Ice Devil).  Why else do you think he has the phobia against insects?  Even if he's never even seen his bride to be, on some deep seated level (induced by some far-realms vision, no doubt) Agar _knows_.

Why?  I'm not sure, though there are plenty of good ideas so far.  Personally I prefer the thought that Agar is only peripheral to the marriage at hand.  The fiends involved want something else and Agar will help bring it to pass (or prevent it).  I like Wizardru's thoughts on the subject though.
Alternatively, some devil lost a bet and has to marry a halfing.  Either one works for me.   

But can you imagine Agar's horror when he's introduced to his bride-to-be?


----------



## Kaodi

*Combination of Ideas*

What might work really well is some sort of combination of all of the above ideas:

Arwink: Agar has in some way been prodded along his path in life.

Kugar: Agar's parents struck the deal to save something greater. 

WizarDru: Agar has been predetermined as the person who will choose the new deity of deity of Things That Crawl (Imbindarla's other facet is taken by someone else, possibly her son?)

Me: Agar's decision is somehow predetermined by how his wedding vows are worded. 

Seravin: Agar is getting married to a Gelugon (the final insult).

Added to this, Agar's abilities and/or travels are what made him able to make the choice. If he hadn't become what he is, the choice would have passed to someone else.


----------



## DanMcS

I love the water trap, I remember when you asked for technical help on the details, and it was fun to see it hit.  A quibble, though.  From the story:



> “Well enough,” he thinks grimly, and steadied by Cruciel and his shield he casts a flexible wall with a 2’ tall gap along the bottom. The inexorable crush of the flood ceases, and for hundreds of feet down the tunnel dwarves and humans lay strewn about like discarded pearls from a broken necklace.  They gasp for air, the conscious helping the unconscious, and soon they’ve gathered once more about fifty feet downstream from the magical wall.




Why did Velendo leave a gap in the wall?  He thought that would let the water flow out slowly?  I'm not sure I buy that.  When you take a rubber hose, with water flowing out, and you put your thumb over it so that the opening narrows, the water doesn't trickle out slower.  It goes out faster and harder.  It's the pressure pushing down from above, not really the velocity gained by falling, that makes the water flow hard.  I think the flow would have diminished, but not entirely slackened, since the increased pressure would have made up for the smaller opening at that point.

Eh.  A minor quibble.  It might have bugged me had I been playing, but you were there and had to make an on-the-spot ruling, everyone had fun and the game moved on.


----------



## Piratecat

Agreed, Dan. Right next to it the water pressure would be intense.  200' away, though, it would be considerably less, just as a hose's pressure lessens over distance.


----------



## Carnifex

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Those salt mine ideas are great. I've actually been to an underground salt mine/cathedral, in Zipaquira' Colombia. It was amazing.
> 
> So, here's something to discuss: Poor Agar. Engaged to a devil! I have some ideas why, but let me ask you: WHY would a devil want to marry an alienist/diviner/planewalker so badly that they arranged a marriage when he was just a toddler?
> 
> I'll be excited to hear your ideas.




You know that it has to be in some way involved with the Modron March being off-time. Maybe the fellow behind the disruption of the March, you know the one, who also features in Dead Gods, yeah him  well it could be that Agar will become important in his plans (perhaps via wanting to use Far Realm stuff to aid him in some way) and the devils pre-emptively tried to get their own claws in Agar (relying on just a powerful divination spell that said the little halfling'd be very important in the future).

Or something...


----------



## Sialia

Not every member of every species is a perfect specimen thereof. Such an embarassment. But even evil daddies love their darlings.

The bride's family has been waiting a long, long time for somebody who might be a suitable match for their beloved but unfortunately malformed daughter. Agar is clearly the prophecied one who has just the right fetish for the job.

"With the way he sees, and the way she looks, it's a perfect match!"

(whadya know--maybe she's been riding along on his shoulder the whole time . . .)


----------



## Graf

Been thinking about Agar a bit. Nothing brilliant (or even interesting) really springs to mind.:

The demons have spent a lot of time and effort to get someone married to Agar. They were willing to wait…. Demons don’t do waiting as a matter of course. In fact I have difficulty seeing them wait unless they absolutely had to. So the demons have little power over the situation. And again it’s marriage, not control, not breeding but they are specifically having him –MARRY- a demon.

So to reverse engineer an answer:
*It’s specifically something about our favorite insane halfing arcanist. In the many years since his birth they could -easily- have found another high level alienist (or wizard) or halfing or what have you. So if they’re fulfilling a prophesy it’s linked very closely to either Agar’s family or his village.
*The demons don’t want to control agar, or rather, if they did there are many other easier ways of accomplishing this goal.
*It’s not about children or breeding something. 
*Demons don’t marry themselves. Marrying is a mortal (or at least a prime) thing. So they are probably fulfilling some requirement related to the mortal world.

Marrying is basically joining together two families. It is possible that these demons are trying to join a mortal family to fulfill some sort of prophesy, or requirement.  

The only thing that really seems like it melds together all of these threads (unless I’ve made a mistake) is some sort of prophesy or iron-clad-magically-enforced-rule. Anything else could have been circumvented more directly. And unless something pretty dangerous is preventing the direct route then I see a Pit Fiend as being pretty direct.

not really a cool answer but maybe this will set a spark in somebody's head.


----------



## Piratecat

Ooooh. Graf, you just gave me some ideas. It's that "family" point; I had been leaning towards a "children" theme, but now a will/inheritance thing might make sense, especially when a dead parent's possessions will automatically pass to Agar, and a dead Agar's belongings will automatically pass to his wife in lieu of children.

Oooh. More ideas. 

Gotta go write.


----------



## justinsluder

Hello PirateCat,

I was wondering, do you need anymore ideas?





PS  What're you gonna do with Tao?


----------



## Elocin

Oh how I so love this thread.

I am VERY curious to get the new stats of the Shadow and the Undead Deepwood Sniper.  I am currently playing a Wild Elf Ranger (Monte)/Deepwood Sniper and I would love to see how you stated him out.  I can do some crazy damage to my favoured enemies (Humans and shadowlands - OA adventure) but I would still love to see your stats.

When you have time anyway.

tyia


----------



## Piratecat

Gladly! Didn't I post them ages ago, though?  I'll have to check.  

So, do you folks have any good ideas on how to manage complex combats with lots of complicated NPCs? I'm at that stage, and I feel like a juggler. Sheesh, too much to keep track of.


----------



## Elocin

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Gladly! Didn't I post them ages ago, though?  I'll have to check.
> 
> So, do you folks have any good ideas on how to manage complex combats with lots of complicated NPCs? I'm at that stage, and I feel like a juggler. Sheesh, too much to keep track of.





Why yes you did but I am not sure if raised thier levels or not.  If you had not then there is no need for you to re-post them.

Thanks again.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Gladly! Didn't I post them ages ago, though? I'll have to check.
> 
> So, do you folks have any good ideas on how to manage complex combats with lots of complicated NPCs? I'm at that stage, and I feel like a juggler. Sheesh, too much to keep track of.



A few simple things help, which I presume your party does already.

1) Have someone else be in charge of initiative and marking spell durations. I'm sure your players are 'professional' enough not to try and take advantage when you tell them "that spell will last for 5 rounds, make a note". It'll also help to keep a track of what spells are active on everyone.
2) Always roll to hit dice with the damage dice. You've no idea how much this speeds up play. I do it in my game as a player, and the difference between me making three attacks and someone else making three attacks sure adds up during the session.
3) Different colours on NPC sheets for different effects? Might help you out when you're looking for something.
4) Non-spellcasting villains.


----------



## DanMcS

Piratecat said:
			
		

> So, do you folks have any good ideas on how to manage complex combats with lots of complicated NPCs? I'm at that stage, and I feel like a juggler. Sheesh, too much to keep track of.




The most complicated in-game combats I've been at have been at the columbus gamedays.  For one, we had upward of a dozen players, plus all the NPCs.  When we rolled initiative, we shuffled ourselves around the table to be in the proper order, which helped keep things rolling and make sure nobody got skipped.  It wasn't bad for the DM, because he had relatively few NPC combatants, and they all went on the same initiative for simplicity.  May not help you.  You could, I suppose, mark an index card for each major NPC, and place them around the table as flags to remind you where they go.

When I played in Ashockney's Halls of the Fire Giant King game, he had all his NPCs in a spreadsheet, and could hit a button and have it roll initiatives, another to do a full attack, etc.  Not quite sure how he did all that, my excel-fu is weak.

When I'm setting up NPCs for a game, I create them like they were a PC, and then make a combat cheat-sheet for each of them, on the back of the character sheet usually.  I summarize their info in logical groupings.  So init bonus goes first, that's the first thing I'll use.  AC and defenses (resistances, SR, DR) goes second, since I'll use that a lot.  Attacks are summarized in order of preference for the character.

If there's a good chance the character will get buffed or alter forms during combat, those alternate forms get their own mini-cheat-sheets.  Creatures that could be summoned get cheat-sheets too, those are often reusable.

This is harder to do for spellcasters, since there's so much more variety in what they can do, but you can guess what their most probable actions will be and summarize that beforehand, maybe like the typical attack actions from the 3.5 monster manual.

If at all possible, use mook rules for the minor combatants, the rabble ghouls or kuo-toa or whatever the PCs are fighting now.  Summarize thusly- "AC 17, hit a PC only on a 19-20, for d8+2 damage, fort save DC XX or paralyze for 1d6 rounds."  You don't need hit points for them because if a PC hits them, they're assumed to be toast, and the non-PCs (the backup mook dwarves that have been following the Defenders around, for instance) could kinda be glossed over at this level anyway.  They're unlikely to hurt a big bad when attacking him, and the evil mooks don't matter except as map filler, so why roll for them at all?  Narrate it away.


----------



## Liolel

THe party is still sleeping in their instant fortess thing right. Something I've noticed in 3.5 is earthquake deals 100 damage to a building no save no hardness. The instant fotress magic item has 100 hitpoints. I leave the repurcussions of this for you to figure out. I'd be to softhearted to destroy it though but I wanted to point it out.


----------



## MerakSpielman

If I have a complicated NPC or group of NPCs, I try to work up some battle plans for them ahead of time, complete with plans A, B, and C for if things start to go really badly for them, akin to the tactics in the 3.5 monster manual but a bit more detailed. If they have forknowledge of the PC group, have them min-max their tactics specifically for killing the party.

High-level NPCs are too complicated to actually run intelligently in the middle of battle, especially if you have more than 2 of them, so advance tactics is pretty much required.


----------



## Greybar

Right now I use a 4x6 card for everyone in the combat (including PCs).  At minimum the card has the character name and their current initiative score.  I then sort the carts by initiative and walk through that.  It greatly reduces the "you missed me problem"... reduce not eliminate since I still manage to do it sometimes somehow.

If I have more time, the cards also get BAB, AC, and hit points.  Otherwise that info is on separate sheets.  I also try to make brief tactical notes for myself ahead of time  (okay: Unholy Blight at distance, then Blasphemy, then close to combat.)

The biggest problem is intelligently using the complex NPCs that you refer to.  For the last little bit I simply swore off using more than one complex NPC at a time.  It was just so frustrating to after the combat realized that I never used a smite or a spelllike power... or worse a Damage Reduction.  So much easier when the rest of the cast simply are beefy fighters for which you really only need to decide whether or not they are using Power Attack.  But I think the PCs like it better when the NPC is clever and constantly shifting with attack/defense/spells/shapeshift - more of a fun challenge.

I've got a high probability of multiple complex characters interacting in upcoming sessions, so I'm eager to hear more from others.

john


----------



## Benben

Get an assistant.

I tag-team DM where one of us does the talking and the other plays logic DM.  It's allowed us to handle some complicated combats.  You can split the complicated NPCs between you and your assistants which really helps with spellcasters.


----------



## MerakSpielman

You could also optimize NPCs to do just one thing, and that thing _really_ well: 

A fighter/monk optimized for Whirlwind attack. 
A spellcaster min-maxed for Necromancy and who only casts necromatic spells.
A rogue with min-maxed hide and move silently scores (annoying when True Seeing can't even tell you where those damn arrows are coming from). You should be able to get them into the 40's easy.

PC, your players seem to _feel_ challanged pretty often, but recently you've been having a bit of trouble getting them to _bleed_ properly. They seem to finish exciting and complicated battles with few serious injuries (like the fight with the dragon). You're generally avoiding the high-powered monsters in the MM in favor of really complicated-to-run NPCs, supported by hordes of inconsiquential 1CR followers. It might be more effective to use a handful of powerful (CR 15+) monsters, all of the same kind so you don't have to worry about complicated strategies. For example, you might try something simple but nasty- like a whole troop (5 to 10 individuals) of stone golems (if you need a twist, disguise them via the mundane skill (to avoid detection) to look like stone giants) (if you want to be a _rat_-bastard, in an anti-magic field).


----------



## Spatzimaus

I second Benben's suggestion.  The last time I was in a huge-group campaign (12 players plus followers), the DM got an assistant DM to play various NPCs in social encounters.  When in combat, he handed one or two of the "unique" enemies to the assistant.  So, while the main DM was trying to keep everything else straight, all he had to manage were the unskilled rabble.  It really helped; the assistant had plenty of time to come up with neat strategies that made the most of their abilities, so the powerful enemies were still challenging.

Besides, it's not like you have a shortage of people on these boards who'd volunteer for the job.  And, it helps if you're worried that your players know you too well... who knows what strategies a total stranger can come up with?


----------



## WizarDru

Well, for my game, we handle it differently.  It really depends on your situation and who the NPCs are.  In my game, I have all dependent NPCs attached to groups, and controlled by one player (with the possibility of DM override at any time).

To wit:
 The 21st level Rog/Shadowdancer has three shadows.  While each is a separate person, they all move on her initiative, and act under her control.  They are her responsibility, and she maintains them whenever possible.  Collectively, they are referred to as Team Shadow.
The cleric, on the other hand, has two Paladins as cohorts, with their mounts, and any creatures he may summon.  Collectively, they are now team Sun.
The Druid, with his animal companions and summoned elementals and celestial beasties is collectively Team Earth.

For non-significant NPCs, they are reduced to flavor text, essentially, unless they hbave a way to influence the combat.  

For powerful NPCs, it becomes more difficult.  At higher levels, I find it becomes much less important to worry about all but the most powerful NPCs, as they can't significantly affect a battle.  A 17th level NPC isn't that dangeorus to a 20th+ level party, but is terrifying to a 5th-level NPC.


----------



## Elder-Basilisk

Good analysis. A few possibilities:

1. It's about the children. Agar is the heir of a powerful wizard/cleric/whatever (if he's not on the family tree, perhaps Agar's great great grandmother was his illegitimate daughter but  her illigitimacy was kept secret) who banished a group of devils from somewhere they want to be (probably not the prime since the pit fiend  has shown up there but maybe she's just an agent) hundreds if not thousands of years ago. Only the heir of that whatever is able to undo the banishment. Agar's son or daughter would be that heir and through Agar's wife they hope to turn him to their side. Or alternatively, they just want to make sure that Agar actually begets an heir (sooner or later they'll turn someone in the line of descent but it doesn't have to be right now) so that _someone_ is able to break the curse.

1b. They could also have been bound to serve the whatever and his descendents in the long forgotten past and they hope that Agar's son/daughter will release them from that service.

1c. Maybe Agar isn't the whatever's heir yet. Maybe the devils' agents still have to kill off a half-dozen people who are ahead of Agar in the line of succession.

1d. Maybe it's not about the children. Maybe the devils will try an alternate/nontraditional wedding vow/arrangement that makes Agar's wife into his heir should he pass away, thus granting her the ability to release the devils.

1e. Maybe the devils specifically wanted to avoid option 1d because Agar's wife will be a devil after all and would make sure to extract a big price from the rest of them once she had the power to release them--that's why the devils want a nonstandard wedding arrangement that specifically stipulates that she is NOT Agar's heir. On the other hand, she wants the traditional arrangement where she is his heir. Or, alternately, she asks for a stipulation that he will release her if imprisoned or something like that and attempts to convince Agar to release only her and then to use him to negotiate a heavy price for the release of the other devils.

2. It's about the children. In this case, the devils want mortals that they can control. Perhaps some Greyhawk-like pact bars them from acting directly on the Prime but agents with human blood can do so.

2a. Maybe the deep magics of the world stipulate that those of legitimate mortal descent can operate on the prime (or do something else the devils want done) at will. Perhaps it also states that those of fiendish nature can be bound through magic if the true name given to them by their mother/father is known (this wouldn't work if there are lots of legitimate half-fiends in your world but would if there aren't). In this way, the devils would be able to compel compliance with their schemes on the prime through use of planar binding spells.

3. Maybe Agar's marriage and children are just the first step. There's an ancient prophecy that the endless blood war will cease when one legitimately born of both demon and devil leads one side to victory. The "devil" that Agar is supposed to marry is really a captured succubus. The devils then plan to marry their child to (or one of his legitimate descendants) to a devil and come up with the leader prophesied to bring them victory.

3a. Since this is supposed to be particular to Agar, maybe there's already devilish or demonic blood in his family.

3b. Or maybe it's a celestial descended fiend who will win the blood war and Agar's great granddaddy was an Aasimar.

4. Maybe it's about the marriage. There's some prophecy or other that Agar will destroy or conquer something (maybe a layer of hell), and that only his family will be spared. So, if the devils become family, they get to live.

4a. Maybe Agar's great ancestor didn't bind or banish the devils but created a weapon that would destroy them (or maybe all fiends or maybe all outsiders)--only those of his family would be spared (he was a half-fiend/tiefling/half celestial/aasimar).

4b. Maybe instead of sparing his family, it spares those under his family's protection. And in the marriage ceremony, he pledges his protection to his in laws (or is somehow construed to do so).

Anyway, food for thought. 



			
				Graf said:
			
		

> Been thinking about Agar a bit. Nothing brilliant (or even interesting) really springs to mind.:
> 
> The demons have spent a lot of time and effort to get someone married to Agar. They were willing to wait…. Demons don’t do waiting as a matter of course. In fact I have difficulty seeing them wait unless they absolutely had to. So the demons have little power over the situation. And again it’s marriage, not control, not breeding but they are specifically having him –MARRY- a demon.
> 
> So to reverse engineer an answer:
> *It’s specifically something about our favorite insane halfing arcanist. In the many years since his birth they could -easily- have found another high level alienist (or wizard) or halfing or what have you. So if they’re fulfilling a prophesy it’s linked very closely to either Agar’s family or his village.
> *The demons don’t want to control agar, or rather, if they did there are many other easier ways of accomplishing this goal.
> *It’s not about children or breeding something.
> *Demons don’t marry themselves. Marrying is a mortal (or at least a prime) thing. So they are probably fulfilling some requirement related to the mortal world.
> 
> Marrying is basically joining together two families. It is possible that these demons are trying to join a mortal family to fulfill some sort of prophesy, or requirement.
> 
> The only thing that really seems like it melds together all of these threads (unless I’ve made a mistake) is some sort of prophesy or iron-clad-magically-enforced-rule. Anything else could have been circumvented more directly. And unless something pretty dangerous is preventing the direct route then I see a Pit Fiend as being pretty direct.
> 
> not really a cool answer but maybe this will set a spark in somebody's head.


----------



## Spatzimaus

I've been thinking more about the Agar thing.  It's just too typical that he's the Chosen One, descendant of some great person, yadda yadda yadda.  What I'd love to see is it have nothing to do with HIM.  The marriage was arranged when he was a toddler, after all.  This is going to be a bit long.

********
The Devils and Demons think long-term.  Setting up plans that take centuries to come to fruition is nothing big to them.  These Devils decide they might eventually need to grab more of the Outlands, or attack Sigil, or who knows what.  They may not even know, they just plan for contingencies; they saw Divinations that said a time of great upheaval would be coming at around this point (Imbindarla's death), so they were setting up plans.  Of course their timing was off, but those divinations were hundreds of years old, and they didn't miss by much.  When the Modrons started marching early they figured it was all starting, and accelerated their plans (pushing for the marriage earlier than they had intended, among other things).

So, they figure that having a village in the Outlands full of people friendly to their cause is a good thing, right?  Enter Agar's hometown.  It's picked as a target for "acquisition" for reasons of position, resources, etc., nothing to do with Agar individually.  If the Blood War spills over into the other planes (and Sigil) as a result of all the big disasters, they hoped to have a nice forward base already prepared.

The first step in the acquisition was to get some influence in the town.  Since the Halflings here favor arranged marriages, they decide to find the richest, most powerful family in town that's gullible enough to agree to an arranged marriage without knowing the bride's family.  Enter Agar's idiot father; he's not the richest man in town, but he was fairly influential and extremely gullible.
He agreed to an engagement to the daughter of a merchant family that had just arrived in town, after they offered to give him a cut of their business.  Over the years he's made a nice bit of money from this his share in this import/export business (not knowing that his business partners are actually fiends), which has given the fiends even more influence in the town.  Agar's father has also helped several other new arrivals (more Fiends) set up businesses in town, be elected to office, and so on.

The culmination of this effort was to be the marriage to Agar.  In their original plan, he'd just have been a rich Halfling boy who wouldn't know the truth until he saw his kids were Half-Fiends.  By that point, they'd have their claws (figuratively) so deep into the town that it'd be impossible to get them out.
What they didn't count on was his magical talent; it isn't very common in Halflings, after all, and casters of his level are even more rare.  It was bad enough when he was wandering the planes by himself; he kept increasing in power, even though he was going a bit nuts.  Then he joined the DoD, and who'd have thought he'd have as friends several living saints who chat with deities on a daily basis?
So, the devils realized that there's zero chance of him making it through the wedding without realizing what the bride was.  Instead of allowing a public scene (err, brawl) at the wedding, they chose to tell him the truth beforehand, point out that he has no alternative thanks to the contract, and hope that he realizes it's in his family's best interests to play along.  It wasn't their original plan, it's just damage control.

Although, I realized as I was writing this, it's too similar to what happened to Alix, and retreading old plotlines is bad.  But you get the basic idea: make the plot have nothing to do with Agar as an individual or his family line as a whole, make it just be that when he was a toddler, his family was simply the most convenient mark in a more widespread plan.  Besides, it was fun to write all that.


----------



## Capellan

Another option to all these ideas re: Agar is that the fiends want to marry one of their own to him precisely _because_ he is friends with the DoD.  That's a whole lot of firepower he can call upon.  Firepower they can sue.

Why would the DoD help fiends?  Well, it's a bit trite, but there's always the 'enemy of my enemy' routine.  After all, in the campaign, a god just died.  The very reality of the universe is in a state of flux: repercussions are being felt across _all_ planes.  Including those that are beyond mortal knowledge.

What if, somewhere *beyond*, _things_ are stirring.  Nightmarish things, more alien and terrible than mere fiends could ever hope to be.  Creatures whose mere presence on the mortal plane would cause the very earth to bleed, the seas to boil, and the sky to rupture.

These things are now emerging into the home planes of the fiends, destroying everything they touch.  Entire worlds have been lost already.  More will soon fall.

Sooner or later, they will come to Spira.

Fortunately, decades ago, a powerful fiendish seer foretold this calamity - not the specific details, but the fact that it would occur.  Plans were laid.

At the same time as the Pit Fiend visited Agar, dozens of other powerful individuals were being confronted with similar contracts.  Iron-clad.  No escape clause.  Unless, of course, they were to help with the fiends' "little problem" ...


I like this idea (but then, I would  ) for a couple of reasons: first, it strikes me that, in the aftermath of the battle with the White Kingdom, a new and exotic - yet also familiar - location might be a nice change of pace.  After the alien environment of the underdark, other planes - strange, but in different ways to the subterranean world, and with elements of familiarity - might be a good venue to adventure.

Second, defeating the ghouls will mean that the DoD have saved the world - _again_ (how many times is it, btw?  Just the comet and this?  Or more?).  Any new threat either has to be completely different, or have bigger repercussions (or both).  And it has to have power that is almost beyond reckoning.


(Apologies to Lovecraft for the obvious rip of 'things man was not meant to know', but when a concept works, it works).


----------



## Greybar

Just a vote that I love Capellan's idea.  It also potentially lets Agar's player be front-and-center not just for the marriage but for the next arc of the campaign.  I don't know about Piratecats' group, but I like to keep different people centric for different parts of the story - everyone gets spotlight time.

Of course, spotlight time isn't always healthy for the character...

john


----------



## Hecabus

*Be Movie Evil*

Have the wedding be as it seems, but work in a loophole that would allow one of the others in the DoD to sub in for him.  For instance, maybe in the Halfling culture if the Groom cannot or will not marry his betrothed a volunteer or brother, even a brother-in-arms, may step in to marry the fiend in his place.  This will give a good chance for roleplaying and a chance for Agar to skip his destiny.  As an added bonus you can trick someone else into accepting the marriage, which will be the real trigger to the prophecy.  I am sure that Nolin would agree to a marriage if it meant saving a friend.  It would be particularly great if Nolin did agree, consimate the marriage (mandatory in most cultures) and the left his wife to continue adventuring leaving his unborn child to grow up fatherless.

I also second the notion of including the Modrons march angle, just to taunt the Dod once again.


----------



## Piratecat

There are some fantastic ideas here.

I'm currently leaning towards the fiend wanting to marry him because of the family; either there is something he will inherit, or something that only the "spouse of Agar" can inherit or perform. I'm not tied to that idea, though, and I'll probably reconsider once we're finished with the current story arc. Heh - once we see who's alive at the end of the current story arc. 

Are any of you guys a lawyer? It might be fun to write an actual pre-marriage contract with red tape.


----------



## Elocin

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Are any of you guys a lawyer? It might be fun to write an actual pre-marriage contract with red tape.




Ok, now this is just plain wrong, to go to these lengths to entice and intrigue your party and to make them wonder, "Damn, how long has he been planning this?!?!?  Just how many different plot angles has he thought of to get around anything we might be planning."

If a lawyer on here does offer his services, make sure you have one filled out and ready to hand out at a moments notice no matter who might actually do the marrying.  This will totally freak out your players.

Ok, again I so need to become a better DM, you put me into so much shame!!

Keep up the great work!!


----------



## Ryan Koppenhaver

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Are any of you guys a lawyer? It might be fun to write an actual pre-marriage contract with red tape.




Particularly if you make it *really* long, and only let the players see it moments before Agar's to be wed.


----------



## Ed

I'm jumping on the bandwagon a bit late but a concept I've used in a similar situation involving a 3E halfling and a fiend is:

Generations ago, one of the halfling's ancestors foiled (inadvertantly) a major scheme of the fiend.  Several (Centuries/Decades/Whatever Timeframe is Apppropriate) of it's time were wasted, flushed right down the pooper.

The fiend, now having nothing to do with all this freed up time on it's schedule, slowly attacked the halflings family and surrounding friends in a variety of subtle ways, poisoning some, inflicting killing diseases on others, masquerading as potential mates for yet other lonely members and then abandoning them or leaving or humiliating them and forcing them into suicide, etc. etc. etc.  The halfling who caused all of this was slowly made aware that something was targeting him indirectly and several years were ate up trying to deal with it when time permitted and finding little bits and pieces out about it.

Eventually, at the climax, the halfling discovered the truth of the matter, that all this grief and torment was indirectly his fault and that the plague of sadness that had fallen around his family and friend's ears was the result of a fiend's twisted sense of 'revenge', well, the guilt and grief was almost overwhelming.

But it's not done yet.  In the climatic battle with the fiend, the halfling falls and the fiend Traps His Soul.  The fiend then continues, over the next several centuries, to torment the halfling by inflicting grief and sadness of a truly twisted sort on the surviving generations, always leaving a few direct descendants alive to carry on the line.

The trapped halfling is forced to watch all of this.  Over and over.  He even watches the fiend indirectly save the lives of some of his family only to see them die later or live to continue a seemingly 'cursed' family line.

Since family to a halfling is so critically important in my 3E games, this was some good stuff.

It's also an interesting way IMO to make the PC a pivot point of a storyline while making him an indirect victim to a greater wrong.  And it's kind of twisted to boot, gives you lots of good oppurtunities for asides and whatnot.  Player characters tend to be an egocentric lot, they like that the story focuses around them and sometimes get a little surprised when they see that's not always the case.  It's a good wake-up call.

Just my two cents,

Ed


----------



## Hecabus

*New Greater Evil Idea*

Don't make the marriage anything other than a regular marriage.  Perhaps the father of the bride was a great Halfling adventurer who helped the fiend in question and in return required the fiend to find the best most suitable mate for his beloved daughter.

The fiend went on to divine that Agar was the best mate, being both fertile, loving, a good father candidate, successful and later on quite rich and famous.

Rat Bastard DM Rule #12
Be evil when the don't expect it, be nice when they are sure you are being evil.  Paranoia makes you King!


----------



## Spatzimaus

Hecabus said:
			
		

> Don't make the marriage anything other than a regular marriage.  Perhaps the father of the bride was a great Halfling adventurer who helped the fiend in question and in return required the fiend to find the best most suitable mate for his beloved daughter.




Ah, the "Sagiro" method of RBDMness.  This would work great, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to be an option.  Witness Velendo's _Commune_ immediately after the first encounter with the Pit Fiend (dated 04/01):



> "Well," says Velendo, "enough of our own theories. Let's see what Calphas has to say on the subject." Velendo casts his prayers out towards heaven. They are filled with questions, and Calphas' divine will answers them.
> 
> * Was the pit fiend sent by Belle's family to collect Agar? YES.
> * Was the pit fiend sent unwittingly by Belle's family to collect Agar? NO.
> * Is Belle a devil? YES.
> * Has Agar's family unwittingly contracted Agar to marry a devil? YES.
> 
> Velendo pauses. "Well, isn't that interesting."




That third one pretty much nails it down.


----------



## Ryan Koppenhaver

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> That third one pretty much nails it down.




Well, she could turn out to be a really *nice* devil, not really into the whole "evil" thing much.  Heck, maybe that's why her family's trying to marry her to Agar-- they don't want anything from him, they just want to be rid of her!  

Ok, that's probably a little on the silly side.


----------



## Greybar

> Well, she could turn out to be a really nice devil, not really into the whole "evil" thing much.




If it's levity, perhaps that's whay the Defenders will need after the whole Underdark thing.

If it is not, consider the redemption angle.  Heck, Sep's SH has a not-evil demoness that has huge repercussions.  However, I'd guess that PC and his players wouldn't want to trod down the path travelled by someone else.  Heck, I'd be scared to try and follow in Sep's footsteps.

john


----------



## Ryan Koppenhaver

Greybar said:
			
		

> If it's levity, perhaps that's whay the Defenders will need after the whole Underdark thing.




Well, there's certainly room for that too:  Make the Defenders deal with obnoxious caterers and the like.  I think that portraying devils in a lighthearted way is likely to compromise the seriousness of the overall game.  Besides, the DoD are perfectly capable of making their own levity, even in the face of ruthless evil:  "We've got your bra!", etc.



> If it is not, consider the redemption angle.  Heck, Sep's SH has a not-evil demoness that has huge repercussions.  However, I'd guess that PC and his players wouldn't want to trod down the path travelled by someone else.  Heck, I'd be scared to try and follow in Sep's footsteps.
> 
> john




Well, the demon/devil redemption concept certainly predates Sep's SH, and I doubt that there'd be any more than superficial similarites if PC took this concept and ran with it...

But back to the rat-bastardly brainstorming:  Maybe Agar's bride isn't "good", per se, but she's really, really likeable.  She's attractive*, good-natured, has a sense of humor, shares a lot of Agar's interests (maybe even has a level or two of alienist herself), and generally keeps the whole "evil" thing under wraps.


* Unfortunately, barring an extreme level of immersive roleplaying, just telling the players this doesn't evoke the kind of visceral reaction that it would in a real life situation.  If you want to be a *real* rat bastard, find an attractive woman to step in and play the character.  Be sure to train her to cry if the PCs are mean to the bride.  (Obviously, this isn't very effective if Agar's player is female, married, not into women, etc.  It might still be funny, though.)


----------



## Spatzimaus

Ryan Koppenhaver said:
			
		

> * If you want to be a *real* rat bastard, find an attractive woman to step in and play the character.  Be sure to train her to cry if the PCs are mean to the bride.




Now that's just cruel.  Heh.  Heh.  I have to use that one in my campaign...

Unfortunately I think the "he/she/it is an outcast from an evil society for being good" angle has been done far too many times.  Good drow, good succubi, good kobolds, it's old.  Besides, if she was really a nice person, would she have sent a Pit Fiend to drag Agar back against his will just to ensure the wedding happened on time?  Or insisted on having the marriage in the first place without telling the groom what she was?

Now, she should still be played as a nice halfling girl.  She's smart, funny, pretty, a good cook, everything he would want in a wife.  But, like a Twinkie, she has a core of pure, banana-flavored Evil, the kind that can't be destroyed with fire or weapons.  Your only option is to bury it in a remote location, salt the earth, and never speak of it again.

Anyway, I see the whole marriage thing as going back to the Eversink style of adventuring, where brute force is meaningless in the face of a massive bureaucracy.  Except, of course, that the situation won't last nearly as long and won't end with so many plot hooks.
After all, they can't nullify the marriage contract by attacking the bride's family, and who knows how many Pit Fiends are on her side?


----------



## WizarDru

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I'm currently leaning towards the fiend wanting to marry him because of the family; either there is something he will inherit, or something that only the "spouse of Agar" can inherit or perform. I'm not tied to that idea, though, and I'll probably reconsider once we're finished with the current story arc. Heh - once we see who's alive at the end of the current story arc.



Hmmmm.  A little brainstorming, here.  First off, we have a devil masquerading as a halfling young lady.  Most appropriate type?  I'm guessing an Erinyes.  Let's look at the origins of the name:  from Greek Mythology, we get this:
*Erinyes: The Punisher of the Unfaithful*

_Originally called *Erinys*... later called, *Erinyes*. Referred to as, "the mist-walking..." and, with fear and respect, "the kindly one". She would harass and injure her prey but not kill them. Homer refers to her in the singular (The Odyssey, 15.234) but, much later (circa 450 B.C.E.), Euripides used the number ’three’ and eventually ’they’ assumed the names: *Tisiphone*, *Megaera* and *Alecto*. Their brass wings made escape impossible, their ripping claws made their torment relentless and horrible._​Ok, that's a good start.  What else? Hmmmm....



_Three sisters: Tisiphone, Megaera, and Alecto. The Erinyes were the punishers of sinners, called "those who walk in darkness." Weeping tears of blood and hissing with hair of vipers, they would descend like a storm. As long as there was sin in the world, they could not be banished. __The Erinyes have also been referred to as the Eumenides the Kindly ones, the Potniae the Awful Ones, the Maniae the Madnesses, and the Praxidikae the Vengeful ones. 
_
​And lastly:
_THE ERINYES were __UNDERWORLD GODDESSES__ of vengeance and retribution (*especially for the crimes of children against their parents*). They were born from the blood of Ouranos' castration at the hands of his son Kronos and for this crime they gave their full support to Zeus as the agent of his father's downfall. _
_*Those that the Erinyes sought to punish they pursued relentlessly, driving them to madness and despair for their crimes, until, through ritual purification, they were cleansed of their sins.*_

_The three underworld daimones were depicted as fierce-looking, snaky-haired women armed with vicious serpents and whips and each equipped with a wide pair of wings._
​Now, work with me here, and let's extrapolate a little bit.  Realizing that the two aren't really the same, let's do some merging of Greek and D&D cosmology.  Perhaps this is all a long-term revenge plot against Agar's parents, most likely her father?  Or perhaps a long-term plot that involves a family possession?

Agar's family lives in an town that is used to dealing with outsiders in business as a matter of fact.  They may even have direct business dealings with Sigil.  What if, through some form of a business dealing, Agar's family (or father) did something that actively angered some powerful devils (or perhaps even not-so-powerful ones)?  Perhaps they inadvertantly came into possession of an item (magical or not) that the devils want back, but due to interdiction rules, can't get?

For example: You're BelGorgarangoran, lord of Infernal Stench.  Your unending battle for supremacy amongst your peers continues as it always has.  One day, you manage to acquire the Skull of Morgan the Virtuous...a paladin of great puissance who was utterly obliterated or turned to true evil (the stories vary).  It has no power, but is a politically significant artifact that shows how powerful you are.  Any devil lord who possess it makes a statement as to his power.  It's useful for a variety of reasons not directly related to it's inherent power.  BelGorgarngoran trots it out at parties, like a fancy jewel.  His current concubine, a powerful Erinyes named Belle sans Pitie wears it as a fashion accesory, perhaps.  

But Belle is an arrogant, vain thing, and she even goes so far as to take it with her to the Outlands as a part of her attempt to waver the faith of a powerful servant of Yondalla.  One thing leads to another, and the powerful cleric collects the Skull of Morgan and banishes her.  Now you, BelGorgarangoran, *want it back*.  But you can't just slay a few halflings and get it.  First off, the cleric is too well protected.  Second of all, employing anyone at all to get it by force is to admit that you're an extremely poor temptor of souls, which is counter to the image you're projecting with its possession (the equivalent of purchasing a Ferrarri and then and putting Ford hubcaps on it, everyone knows you're clueless).  Third, you need to punish Belle somehow, but she's too valuable to simply destroy or waste.

What to do?  What to do?

Well, you're not really happy at the moment, so you toss Belle in a torture pit and think on it.  Time passes.  Word comes to you that the cleric is dead!  Hurray!  But wait....the Skull's been protected by a Miracle?  Damn.  Hmmm.  It's a human skull...an awkward item for a temple of Yondalla to have.  Perhaps you can manipulate events to get the temple to bequeath it to a lay person?  Time passes.  This is getting ridiculous!  The protective enchantment from the cleric stayed with the skull.  But wait!  The enchantment passes through the family!  All you need to do is get into the family, and tempt the skull away, somehow.

Answer: You wrap it all up in a tidy package.  Pull Belle out of her prison, and start arranging events.  Fifty more years, and that Skull will be yours!  An arranged marriage?  Perfect!  It'll drive Belle half-insane to have to play the 'good wife' until she gets what you want.  You'll have gotten it subtly, too.

Time passes.

The Great Council of Carceri has been scheduled, and it's going to be soon.  Belle hasn't finalized that marriage, yet!  How can you kill the parents if she isn't married, yet?  Best get her jailer up here, and fetch the young fool!  You are Belgorgarangoran, and you will not be DENIED!

(and so on, and so forth).

Misdirection is the best key, here.  Better yet, find a way to have the devils endanger the town, or perhaps a nearby temple of Yondalla in a subtle way.  Perhaps the threat of continued violence can be a motivator: "you can't be here all the time, paladins, and we are eternal."

Better yet, make it so that simply defeating the main plot has sub-optimal circumstances.  Getting out of the marriage might trigger an attack by Inevitables, or the threat of same.  Perhaps the Skull actually is a powerful artifact for good, and subtly affects the devils who come into contact with it, making them less evil, somehow, without their knowing it.  What if a greater good could be served by tricking evil into having it's way?

"Thanks for the wedding night, Belle!  Here's the item you wanted.  Have a nice trip!"

"What?  I'm no going anywhere."

"Oh yes YOUARE....." (Malachite, doing his best Bugs Bunny).


----------



## WizarDru

And while I'm at it, here's another idea in a completely different vein:

what if the entire Outland town is actually part of a subtle turf-war between either two sets of interplanar organizations?  Perhaps they each want to claim the town (be they celestials versus devils, Sigil factions, devils versus devils, devils versus demons, or something else entirely).  For whatever reason, they're trying to slowly either 'capture' the town or 'infect' it, such that they're marrying into it.  Half the town is in on it, but folks like Agar's family is completely ignorant of the Secret War being waged under their noses.

The sudden urgency?  Agar's family is the only one that hasn't been 'captured', and it's a 50/50 balance.  His marriage casts the deciding vote...and both sides have a vested interest in the affair.


----------



## Kaodi

*Imbindarla*

This is kind of off the current topic, but I am looking forward to what you are going to do with Imbindarla's successor, PirateCat. I still think it would be a neat idea to split the two portfolios, which would mean that for the death of one of your best villains (if not the best) that you get *two* gods to contend with, or possibly not if you decide otherwise. In relation to the plot, it could mean that perhaps through some misinformation, the Defenders find out who Imbindarla's successor is, but assume they took on the entire mantle, when in fact they did not, leaving a new hidden villain in the wings. Even if you weren't to follow up on this second entity now, if you ever revisited the campaign world, it would throw in an unexpected twist, where that second deity might be central. Just a few thoughts, and thanks for letting us help you out.


----------



## Piratecat

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> Unfortunately I think the "he/she/it is an outcast from an evil society for being good" angle has been done far too many times.  Good drow, good succubi, good kobolds, it's old.




I've never done it. How unlikely is that?  

Even if the ultimate motives are different, that may be the perfect screen. Nice devil girl, unsuitable for hell, seeks pleasant mate.  Some possibilities there... and some wonderful levity.


----------



## Spatzimaus

WizarDru said:
			
		

> "Oh yes YOUARE....." (Malachite, doing his best Bugs Bunny).




The RatBastardliness level in this thread is just awe-inspiring, some days.

I think you should go with Wizardru's plan (and this, you see, is why his story hour is one of the few I follow near-religiously).  Not that it's not similar to the other ideas that have been posted, but it's all about internal consistency.  The ONLY nitpick is that it doesn't explain why they'd voluntarily drop the charade two months before the wedding after keeping it up for 50+ years, but that can be explained by Agar's arcane abilities; since he clearly would find out she's a devil, it's better for everyone involved if he's okay with it.

One problem, though, is that the whole situation sort of feels "tacked on".  Was there anything in the campaign that was leading to this before the Pit Fiend showed up for Agar?  It'd be nice if you could tie this in to other things that have gone on in the campaign, but I really don't see how.


----------



## WizarDru

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> I think you should go with Wizardru's plan (and this, you see, is why his story hour is one of the few I follow near-religiously).



[tips hat]  Thank you kindly. sir.  We're quite proud of it.   If PC could pardon my blantant pimpage for a moment, I'm soliciting ideas for my game, now that we're officialy Epic.  I've got a lot of details to work out, and as you rightly point out, there are many fantastic ideas here.

I should warn you though, that if you go to this thread over here, you'll see potential spoilers for things coming up.  Knowledge of my Story Hour isn't necessary for suggestions (but it never hurts).

I don't know about PC, but I'm finding running an Epic game with 6 PCs and all their associates to be a lot of work, and I'm trying to walk a very fine line between speed-bump encounters and screaming lethal _instant-death-just-add-players_ encounters.  The line is much finer at high-levels than you might think.  Luckily I've got a terrific group of dedicated players who enjoy the non-combat adventures as much as the combat ones (but hey, sometimes you need a _Big Pile of Dead Bad Guys (TM)_, as Ben might say).


----------



## MerakSpielman

PC, I honestly think you should end a session where the players defeat a great, world shaking evil involving a heroic battle, all-out combat, and character deaths with yourself standing up and declaring "And you all live happily ever after." and beginning to pack up your stuff. Good lines to follow this with include 

"but that was the last evil in the multiverse!" 
"You look surprised." 
"I think I'll be a player next time, and one of you can DM. I have a great idea for a elven rogue named 'Sneaky.'" 
"You'd rather keep going? All right, back to the modrons then."

If possible, this is best done on April 1st, but on the other hand that might just tip them off...


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot

Well, perhaps the contract requires the use of both participants true names, and the devils would consider Belle's true name to be expendable as she would probably be one of the weaker outsiders.

Or perhaps the pit fiend/old halfling lady was Belle, she just grew impatient and wanted to check to see her groom in person before she was supposed to meet him...


----------



## Elder-Basilisk

Not necessarily "Is Belle a devil?/Yes." could reasonably be interpreted to mean that she is part devil. If Belle is only a half-fiend then the "she's just a nice [half-devil] girl who the devils were contracted to marry off" angle could work.

If Half-fiend is good enough for Dismissal, it's good enough for Commune.



			
				Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> Ah, the "Sagiro" method of RBDMness.  This would work great, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to be an option.  Witness Velendo's _Commune_ immediately after the first encounter with the Pit Fiend (dated 04/01):
> 
> That third one pretty much nails it down.


----------



## Elder-Basilisk

Which brings to mind something worth considering. Working within Wizardru's rather brilliant presentation of the story, how would Belle seek to betray and embarrass the devil lord for his actions while remaining safe from retribution and garnering power and reputation herself?

One possibility--she tries to put off actually obtaining the skull until the last minute, shifting the blame onto the devil lord for getting her married too late, etc. . . and counting on the DoD to defend her from aggression (in fact, she might specifically add that to the contract and/or vows--a suggestion spell to the cleric performing the ceremony might account for a last minute addition (especially since protecting one's wife is part of the traditional idea of marriage anyway)). In fact, she might even arrange to be fooled by the defenders into sending a fake skull back to the devil lord. Of course, if she did that, she'd want to find another diabolic patron so she might try to use the DoD to subtly make contact with a rival devil lord in order to sell out her master. Or the rival devil lord might anticipate her desires and take it upon himself to make contact--subtly, of course, through the DoD.

And the funny thing is that most of this is actually compatible with the "nice [half-fiend] girl idea." A suggestion, dominate, or Geas--or simple deception and trickery (perhaps she doesn't know she's a half-fiend or that the devilish side of her family are actually devils and thinks she's just like everyone else and her "uncle" is really a nice guy who's dying of a terrible disease and needs the skull to cure him)--would account for her intent to take the skull.



			
				WizarDru said:
			
		

> "Thanks for the wedding night, Belle!  Here's the item you wanted.  Have a nice trip!"
> 
> "What?  I'm no going anywhere."
> 
> "Oh yes YOUARE....." (Malachite, doing his best Bugs Bunny).


----------



## Kaodi

*Return*

The idea that Belle might be a half-fiend gave me a similiar, perhaps just an insidious idea. If you take the word, " devil " to mean anything coming out of that pit of darkness, the Nine Hells, then that technically could mean not a Baatezu, but a Baatorian. Or a half-Baatorian also. Perhaps Belle is really a tiefling, descended from an ancient Baatorian, and her heritage was recovered through some dark rituals. 

Anyway, why would any self respecting Baatezu ally with a Baatorian? To borrow from another idea: to give Hell the upper hand in the Blood War. Being an alienist, the protobeing thing, is somehow connected to the Far Realm, isn't it? Well, if it isn't, perhaps Agar is still needed to find a way to resurrect the Baatorian race. If it is, then that might open the possibility that Agar is needed to release the Baatorians from the Far Realm, where they hid from the Baatezu. Perhaps even Agar is also distantly descended from the Baatorians, though he was not born a tiefling, and his blood is needed to strengthen the line, or at least keep it from deteriorating further.

Perhaps if you were willing to twist the Modron March storyarc a bit, you could add something about them trying to quell this new plot, as an end to the Blood War would seriously disrupt the order of the multiverse.

Of course, if Baatorians never existed in your cosmology, this all goes out the window. But hey, what is the cost of speculation?


----------



## Spatzimaus

Okay, I thought of something else.  This is pretty long...

We can safely assume the DoD will do a bunch more divinations as the wedding approaches, right?  They'll be trying to figure out WHY the wedding is happening, if there are ways to break the contract, and so on.  They'll ask whether Belle has a hidden agenda.  They'll ask whether her father had an agenda when he arranged the wedding.  They'll use Detect Evil on Belle and her father.  They'll ask more questions about the Pit Fiend.

These divinations NEED to fail.  Not like all the Ghouleax divinations, I mean fail in the simplest way possible: Belle and her father aren't knowingly a part of any nefarious plan.  As far as they know, it's a legitimate marriage.  The only devil who knows there's a deeper plot here is one they've never heard mention of, and the item that spawned this whole strategy isn't anything magical.  (If Belle was the one who lost the item originally, she'd have to be evil, which means the PCs would feel free to just attack.  So, she HAS to be an innocent.)

Start with Wizardru's scenario, except it probably shouldn't be a skull the devil BelGorgarangoran (let's call him BelGrande for short) wants.  It's got to be something Agar's family could keep on their mantel.  An antique sword, a large crystal, or an old beer stein or something.  Something nonmagical and relatively harmless, but distinctive in appearance.

Enter Belle, the half-Fiend half-Halfling daughter of a newly-arrived businessman.  You need the half-Halfling part to make it legal in Halfling society; after all, if someone asks her if she's a Halfling she can honestly answer "yes".  Her father, the one who arranged the marriage, is a full halfling (mother was a erinyes), and is a friend and business associate of Agar's father.
The whole reason he came to the town in the first place was that his daughter didn't fit in with other devils, and he didn't want her to grow up evil.  He only wants what's best for his little girl, so he asked Belle's maternal grandfather, a priest, to use magic to find the Halfling boy that would make the best husband for her.

Her "grandfather" is actually BelGrande, the devil who wants the item back.  He's not actually her grandfather (maybe the connection is much further back, but still through her mother's side), and he told her father that divinations showed Agar's family to be the most suitable for marriage.  He was lying; Agar's family was just the one with the item he wanted.  But, when Agar became a powerful planar mage, Belle's family just assumed that the divinations were true, and that Agar really WAS going to be the ideal husband for their daughter.  Someone who travelled the planes wouldn't have much of a problem with an outsider wife, after all.

When divinations showed that planar travel was going to be disrupted before the wedding, they were worried that any delay would be an excuse to nullify the marriage contract.  So, they abandoned the pretense of a normal halfling wedding, and sent a family friend (the pit fiend) to make sure Agar could make it in time.  This pit fiend didn't know about BelGrande's plot, either; once she had reassurance that Agar could make it to the wedding, she was satisfied.  And since the pit fiend didn't know about any deeper plots, she didn't realize that revealing Agar's wife's fiendish origins prior to the wedding ran counter to Belgrande's plan, since it gives the DoD more time to uncover the REAL reason for the marriage.

Since this whole thing was arranged decades ago, Belle might not even be aware that they weren't told of her heritage; this IS the Outlands, after all, not some Prime, so it's not like the Halflings would immediately stone her to death.  But let's assume that she does know, which means she and her family are guilty of telling a small lie but nothing more.  She probably had an item that used the 3E Alter Self spell to look like a normal halfling (in 3.5E that spell wouldn't work), but even without the item it's not easy to tell her heritage other than the small bat wings.  After all, her mother was a erinyes, so she's very humanoid-looking.  She's not evil, either; maybe CN, so from her point of view, she's getting married to one of the few people that wouldn't have any problem with her unusual background (and Agar is NG, so it's not a huge alignment problem either).  This sort of marriage is exactly what she's always wanted, so she's really looking forward to a "normal" life.

Belle doesn't know that her grandfather had a deeper purpose behind prompting her father to arrange the marriage.  Since she has no ulterior motive, casual divinations wouldn't set off any warnings.  Once they're married, though, BelGrande (or whatever his name is) plans on discreetly killing off Agar's family so that Agar inherits the item, again without her knowledge.  At that point, it'd be trivial to get the item through her.  Even if he fails in killing Agar's family, he'll still get the item eventually once Agar's parents die of old age.  And, it's practically guaranteed that Belle would outlive Agar, thanks to her longer lifespan and less dangerous profession.

So, the DoD would be confronted with this situation, and their first instinct would be to threaten/accuse the bride and her family, who all happen to be innocent.  This'd lead to the fun roleplaying where you play the distraught bride-to-be, who's been waiting for this day all her life and is terrified the groom will back out...
The best outcome for almost everyone would be for the wedding to go through; it's just what comes after that gets tough.

Belle could just be a normal commoner-type, but if Agar wants a cohort she could make a good Horizon Walker.


----------



## Sialia

I simply adore the creative Rat Bastardy of this thread. You guys are the best at being bad.

Which is why I'm recruiting here for some content for my thread (see link in sig) which just doesn't seem to be digging up the kind of evil that I'm looking for as yet.

"Evil" is too fine a word. I have plenty of "evil" of my own. 

It's "style" that I'm lacking. "Class."  "Couth."

Panache.

Show me what you've really got.  

Apologies for thread hijack.


----------



## maddman75

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Gladly! Didn't I post them ages ago, though?  I'll have to check.
> 
> So, do you folks have any good ideas on how to manage complex combats with lots of complicated NPCs? I'm at that stage, and I feel like a juggler. Sheesh, too much to keep track of.




Post it notes!  I found them indisposable when DMing a high level group.  One note for each bad guy.  Not only is it handy to keep track of hit points, but what spells they have on them, durations, etc.  I'd also tend to plan out the first couple of rounds ahead of time.


----------



## Hecabus

Ok, here is my slight changes from the Wizardru and Spatzimaus:

"When divinations showed that planar travel was going to be disrupted before the wedding, they were worried that any delay would be an excuse to nullify the marriage contract. So, they abandoned the pretense of a normal halfling wedding, and sent a family friend (the pit fiend) to make sure Agar could make it in time. This pit fiend didn't know about BelGrande's plot, either; once she had reassurance that Agar could make it to the wedding, she was satisfied. And since the pit fiend didn't know about any deeper plots, she didn't realize that revealing Agar's wife's fiendish origins prior to the wedding ran counter to Belgrande's plan, since it gives the DoD more time to uncover the REAL reason for the marriage.

I would have it so that Belgrande originally arranged the marriage to get the item (you know it could be an artifact as they do not detect as magic), but didn't divine that Agar would turn out to be a very powerful magician and team himself with the Defenders.  That much goodness in one spot is bad for a devil's health you know.  He sent the Pit Fiend to stop the wedding so he can start on a new plot or perhaps in Halfling weddings, knowing that the Defenders would naturally do anything they could to stop the union once they found out about the bride's fiendish background.  

If an arranged marriage is called off the offending family must pay or lose some monetary or social symbol of their family.  Maybe the item that Belgrande is looking for is Agar's Family crest that all the women hate (it's ugly and it has that ugly skull on it) and they find the request for the crest to be a terrific bargain to let Agar out of his marital duties.


----------



## Spatzimaus

I was re-reading all of the Story Hour.  Yes, I'm that bored.  Anyway, I came across a couple things that made me think more about this concept.

First, when I wrote my earlier post I was operating under the assumption that Agar didn't know about his bride until the Pit Fiend showed up.  But, according to Agar:



> Crouched in the stairwell, heart palpitating with repressed memories, Agar manages to focus an answer. "Yeah, pretty much so. I had managed to mostly forget about it. When I was a little kid, my parents arranged a marriage to a girl in another village. Later, when I started becoming a diviner, it was one of the first things I asked about. And?" Shudders rake his frame as insane memories start to creep in, but he manages to fight them down and continue.  "And the divination was horrible. Horrible . I decided that getting married was something that I didn't want to do. It wasn't long after that when I started exploring the planes." He gulps. "I don't want to go back for the wedding."




So, from this, we can infer the following:

*ITEM 1: Agar, a nice young Halfling, casts a divination that shows his future bride to be fiendish in origin.*

First, which divination exactly was it?  "Weal or woe"?  Maybe something that showed him his future in-laws?  Or did he make the same mistake Velendo did and ask something open-ended like "is she a devil?"  Either way, there are plenty of ways he could have been led to think it was worse than it is.  Or maybe half-fiend kids just look naturally ugly at first.

*ITEM 2: Agar's parents don't know about Belle's true nature.*

It's conceivable that they DO know and approve of her anyway, which'd be a nice twist, but if they did then certain other parts don't make much sense, so let's assume they don't know.  Presumably, then, Agar never told them what he found out.  Ergo, they've been operating under the assumption that this other family (which they must be close to by now) is just normal Halflings.

*ITEM 3: Irony is a wonderful thing.*
Out of fear of being married to a fiend, Agar runs away to become a planeshifter and alienist, a combination that in theory should leave him without many of the usual prejudices of form; after all, his motto seems to be "Anything is better with tentacles!"
He probably hasn't given it a second thought in the intervening years, still running blindly away, but if he saw a half-Erinyes half-Halfling, he probably wouldn't recoil any more.  (Nolin sure wouldn't.)  Especially if you house-rule the Half-Fiend template to take on some of the appearance of the parent; her wings would be feathered instead of leathery, so she'd look a lot like an angel except for the claws.  Of course, this assumes you use the 3.5E templates; the 3E Half-Fiend only had a 50% chance of wings, and a wingless Halfling girl would probably be easier to cover with illusions.

*ITEM 4: Erinyes have REALLY been nerfed in 3.5E.*
They went from 11 spell-like abilities usable at will to 4.  No Polymorph Self, Invisibility, Tongues, etc.  On the other hand, they gained Greater Teleport and True Seeing, along with jumping from 6 to 9 HD.
This isn't just an idle point.  The whole premise of the Erinyes is that it tempts mortals, which should be difficult to do if you clearly show devil features and don't speak the language.  Kind of makes you wonder exactly how they can blend in, now doesn't it?  It also makes the classic "Alix's stepmom was a chair" story impossible, so for internal consistency you might want to stay with the 3E version.

*********

Anyway, while I'm not sure you want to do this to the player, you could easily make this a "no way out" scenario.  For example, after the PCs did the first divinations on this, they've assumed that the Halfling marriage contract has a standard "both must be Halflings" clause and that Belle is in violation of that.
What if Halfling society doesn't differentiate half-breeds?  Unlike Humans, they can't just crossbreed with anything with two legs, so maybe it's never been a major issue to them.  She is the child of a halfling, therefore she's a halfling, no matter who her mother was, which makes it legal.  The subterfuge involved is dishonest but not illegal, which in many Halfling societies wouldn't even be an issue.

So, let's presume the marriage contract doesn't have any loopholes.  How would the Defenders react?  They can't really buy out the contract, especially if the bride's family has a serious motivation to see it go forward.  For example, maybe her father wants her to take over the family business; she's smart enough (+4 INT for the template), but he's afraid that if he dies she'll lose any legal claim to the company under halfling law.  So, he wants to see her married to a halfling before he dies, and there really isn't any acceptable substitute.  Once her heritage becomes public, it's not like she'll be able to date normally, so this was the best option.

Maybe Hecabus is right and the pit fiend was really sent by BelGrande to cause problems.  The divinations asked if it was sent by Belle's family, and the answer was "yes", but if BelGrande is a distant ancestor he's still family, so it's not a lie.  And he has plenty of motivation.  After all, his plan wasn't working out the way he had intended; it was originally going to be a simple item retreival from a rich Halfling family.  Instead, he could potentially make enemies of a powerful group of living saints; so, he's cutting his losses by getting the Defenders to do his work for him.  The first step is to get them worried.
The Pit Fiend shows up two months early in a clearly suspicious way, threatens the party, threatens Agar's parents, and in general gets the Defenders to start the divination chain.  Once they realize there's no easy way out of the contract, they'll be looking to deal, and BelGrande wants the DoD to negotiate with him directly instead of trying to deal with Belle's family, since her family doesn't even know about the item he wants.
He'll ask for the item, and they'll give it against their better judgement; after all, it's not magical, so what's the big deal?  What he won't say is that he doesn't actually have the authority to call off the wedding.  Which leads to all kinds of problems, but once he has the item there isn't a reason NOT to go through with the wedding, not that Agar will think that.

I don't know, I just think it'd be really funny if after all was said and done, Agar was forced, kicking and screaming, to have the happiest day of his life.  It'd be a nice counterpoint to the hopelessness of the whole White Kingdom situation, especially if you intend the campaign to draw to a close.  "And they all lived happily ever after."  All it'd cost is a trinket his parents keep on the mantel.
But, the Defenders have spent so much time defeating world-destroying plots that it may not occur to them that powerful enemies don't always have grand plans.  They'll be looking for something bigger.


----------



## Kugar

Oh, I have an idea!  What if the devil snuck into a "mirror show" to do some scouting and is truely smitten with Agar?  Could you think of anything so annoying as a lusty devil or one as danerous as a incaration of evil scorned.  What if the devil was truely willing to give accend to prove it's worth to Agar?  This makes me smile as much as an undead Priggle 

This may also explain the foolish (forshadowing) appearance, or maybe a rival devil interest stepped in to give the Defenders a heads up and try to keep the wedding from happening.  

The truly rat-bastard decision is of course to make the marriage the "good" course of action and watch the defendedrs squirm.  Maybe a ancient portal can only be opened by a soul intertwined with both good and evil and the wedding would link a demon to Agar enough to accomplish this.  What is on the other side? No-one knows except he who marches with the Modrons.  Just some late night ramblings.

Kugar out.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Kugar said:
			
		

> Maybe a ancient portal can only be opened by a soul intertwined with both good and evil and the wedding would link a demon to Agar enough to accomplish this.  What is on the other side? No-one knows except he who marches with the Modrons.  Just some late night ramblings.




It all comes back to the modrons... how evil.  I love it.


----------



## Ostler

*What spell was the mist?*

I gotta know.  What was the mist/cloud spell used in the big battle.  For that matter any chance we can see some stats for "The King"?  Please?

I'm going to start a high level campaign up soon (again) and I would love to use the spell to confuse the players.  

They like playing high level characters, I like frustrating them with things they can't figure out.


----------



## The Forsaken One

Now why is everyone feeling sorry for Agar. I'm feeling sorry for the devil!

Man u imagin marrying an insane alienist the size of a errr.... You know... And each time u wanna have a quite night for the two of you, you first have to kick the misformed pseudonatural stirge out of your bed and god knows what else might wander or slip under the door in the middle of the night.

And now we aren't even getting started about agreeing on pets..... Or where the honeymoon is going to... or where ANY vacation is going too....

Ahhh.... I feel sorry for the lady!


----------



## Vargo

The Forsaken One said:
			
		

> Now why is everyone feeling sorry for Agar. I'm feeling sorry for the devil!
> 
> Man u imagin marrying an insane alienist the size of a errr.... You know... And each time u wanna have a quite night for the two of you, you first have to kick the misformed pseudonatural stirge out of your bed and god knows what else might wander or slip under the door in the middle of the night.
> 
> And now we aren't even getting started about agreeing on pets..... Or where the honeymoon is going to... or where ANY vacation is going too....
> 
> Ahhh.... I feel sorry for the lady!




I was going to make a comment about Japanese tentacle flicks, alienists, and demonic sexual habits, but somehow, I don't think Eric's grandmother would approve.


----------



## The Forsaken One

> I was going to make a comment about Japanese tentacle flicks, alienists, and demonic sexual habits, but somehow, I don't think Eric's grandmother would approve.




you aren't the only one restraining himself


----------



## demiurge1138

Alright, so the delegate RBDMs have touched on the idea that the devil-bride might be an (unwitting tiefling?) ally of the Baatorians, who are trapped in the Far Realm. They also briefly touched on Agar's beetle paranoia, and how the bride could be a gelugon, to really tweak him. 

Hmm...
Perhaps one of the nameless entities who has provided Agar with his eldritch secrets is a massive beetle-y Baatorian, and the marraige will help set him free. Because the devils are all about tradition, and he has to be their to walk his great-to-the-nth-granddaughter down the aisle. 

Demiurge out.


----------



## Dr. Confoundo

I'm surprised that no one has suggested that the reason the Modrons were marching was to attend Agar's wedding.

"Bride's side or Groom's side?"


----------



## Spatzimaus

Well, I thought of that, but then it'd beg the question, why take the long way?  Mechanus to Outlands is pretty much one hop, and there's no real reason they'd ALL need to go.  Unless it's a giant marathon and Agar's wedding is the finish line... now THAT'd be a great way to end the campaign, with the Defenders being crushed beneath an endless wave of Modrons.

Anyway, now that the players have defeated the Ivory King, presumably this plotline has really kicked off, so we can just sit back and watch the ratbastardliness (a word I've now added to my dictionary).


----------



## Dr. Confoundo

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> Well, I thought of that, but then it'd beg the question, why take the long way?




They were taking the scenic route?


----------



## Kugar

Dr. Confoundo said:
			
		

> They were taking the scenic route?



They had to pick up gifts?


----------



## Piratecat

With your inspiration, I think I have the Agar problem about solved. Would you rather wait to see what I'm doing, or know it now?


----------



## Greybar

basically you're asking if we can choose delayed gratification?
bwah hahaha... [choke]

oooh, you *are* a RBDM.

So hard to decide.  I think I'll lean towards hearing the plan, particularly since I'm sure that all of the glistening evil bits won't be revealed through the storyhour in their full glory.

john


----------



## Seule

I think on the whole, I'd prefer to wait for the full details, but it's really up to you.


  --Seule


----------



## MerakSpielman

I'd rather be surprised... but then again, I'd rather not know the sex of my baby before it's born, and a lot of people feel differently (about their own children, obviously).


----------



## WizarDru

I'd vote for wait.  But then, I did choose to not know the sex of my daughter before she was born.  My son's ultrasounds made it pretty unambigous, though.


----------



## Kaodi

*To Know*

I'm sorry, I am weak. I want to know now, hehehe... I have had too much waiting of late.


----------



## RangerWickett

Tell us, and we'll point out all the flaws in your logic.  Unless you're going a Lovecraftian route, in which case logic will not avail us.


----------



## Suldulin

I'd like to see


----------



## Greybar

Okay, I'm probably way late to this but reading the marriage contact clicked for a simple and dangerous one.


The Fiend had divined that the child Agar would be a great spellcaster and potential adversary.  They set up a simple marriage contact, the dowry of which was a simple thing that Agar's parents had no problem at all signing with binding force for their child.  It harkens back to a simpler time, when the halflings led a more agrarian life.



> Agar Smoketallow, upon achieving legal age and entering into marriage with our daughter Priscilla Wormwood, shall work upon the Wormwood estate at the direction of her father Asmodes Wormwood for a period of five years immediately following the wedding.  There he has learn the trade of the Wormwood family, following loyally to the direction of the Wormwood elders.




no muss, no fuss!  Simple good hard work is what any boy with a bit of wanderlust needs.

Oh, did we mention that the Wormwood estate is not exactly on the plane you thought it was, and the work isn't exactly cutting grain and working wood...

john


----------



## GreyShadow

Please I'd like to see.


----------



## Spatzimaus

Well, this being a spoiler/feedback thread and all, I'd say the best solution is to post the info here and the people who don't want to know can just avoid this thread for a while.  Of course, that depends on exactly how many sessions behind you are in the Story Hour...

Besides, like RangerWickett said, posting it would allow some last-minute suggestions and proofreading.  Personally, I'm usually more excited about a core concept than its actual execution; you might deliberately put some loopholes into the situation, and the fact that the players might not find them doesn't make it any less elegant.  And by "elegant", I mean "ratbastardly".


----------



## GreyShadow

You can always use the nifty spoiler tags.


----------



## Piratecat

Sea King Blel-Plibbit
17th lvl cleric, 2nd lvl Hierophant

Large or Medium
Hit Dice: 21d8+63 (+147) (160 hp or 244 hp or 263 with divine power and righteous might; ½ dmg)	263
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20 ft., swim 50 ft.
AC: 40 (+10 natural, +6 large shield (w/magical vestment +4), +10 armor (magical vestment +4), 20% miss chance (entropic shield), +5 deflection (shield of faith), -1 size, DR 15/holy)
Attacks: Spear +39/+34/+29/+24 melee, bite +29 melee [BAB +16/+11/+6/+1; +2 or +9 str, +1 morale (bless), +6 luck (divine favor), +3 from divine power, -1 size, +5 spear of the Sea Mother)
Damage: Spear 2d6+15, bite 1d6 +10 (+1 luck, +9 str, +5 spear)
Special Attacks: Lightning bolt, 30’ touch attack, Blast infidel (NG)
Special Qualities: Keen sight, slippery, adhesive, immunities, electricity resistance 30, light blindness, amphibious
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +10, Will +19 (+1 morale vs fear, +2 resistance from prot good, +1 luck from prayer)
Abilities: Str 15 (29), Dex 12, Con 16 (24), Int 15, Wis 20, Cha 14
Skills: Concentration +25, Escape Artist +30, Knowledge (religion) +30, Listen +13, Move Silently +4, Search +12, Spot +25 (+1 luck from prayer)
Feats: Alertness, Great Fortitude, Leadership x2, Power attack, craft lots ‘o crap (wondrous object & arms & armor & ring), extend spell 
Alignment: neutral evil
Kuo-toas speak Kuo-Toan, Undercommon, and Aquan.

Items: periapt of wisdom +4, spear of the Sea Mother (+5, vile damage), crown of currents, armor of damage transferal, regalia, ring of psychic poison (BoVD p101)

Domains: water (rebuke/command fire creatures), destruction  (smite +4 to hit, +17 to dmg)


		Code:
	

Lvl	0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
17 	6 	7+1 	6+1 	6+1 	6+1 	5+1 	4+1 	3+1 	2+1 	1+1


0th: 
1st: bless, command, divine favor, entropic shield, prot good, sanctuary, shield of faith, obscuring mist
2nd: bear’s endurance, darkness, silence, silence, wave of grief (BoVD), wither limb (BoVD), fog cloud
3rd: Bestow curse, deeper darkness, invisibility purge, see through fog, protection from energy, searing light, contagion
4th: extended prayer, divine power, poison (DC 24), spell immunity (fireball, magic missile, poly other, searing light), stop heart (BoVD p106), tongues, control water
5th: greater command, heartclutch (BoVD p 97), morality undone (BoVD p99), righteous might, slay living, ice storm
6th: greater dispel magic, greater dispel magic, harm, harm, cone of cold
7th: blasphemy, repulsion, whirlwind of teeth (BoVD-8d8 dmg), disintegrate
8th: mass inflict critical wounds (4d8+17), sea mother’s storm (as firestorm: 17d6 cold damage), horrid wilting (17d6)
9th: miracle, implosion

Combat

Lightning Bolt (Su): Two or more kuo-toa clerics (known as "whips") operating together can generate a stroke of lightning
every 1d4 rounds. The whips must join hands to launch the bolt but need merely remain within 30 feet of one another while it
builds. The lightning bolt deals 1d6 points of damage per whip, but a successful Reflex save halves this amount (save DC 13 +
number of whips).

Pincer Staff: Many kuo-toa fighters and all whips above 6th level carry this Large exotic weapon. A pincer staff deals 1d10
points of bludgeoning damage, threatens a critical hit on a 20, and deals double damage on a critical hit. It has a 10-foot reach
and cannot be used against an adjacent opponent. A wielder that hits an opponent of at least Small but no larger than Large size
attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If the wielder gets a hold, the staff grabs
the opponent and deals 1d10 points of damage each round the hold is maintained.

Keen Sight (Ex): Kuo-toas have excellent vision thanks to their two independently focusing eyes. Their eyesight is so keen that
they can spot a moving object or creature even if it is invisible, ethereal, or astral. Only by remaining perfectly still can such
objects or creatures avoid their notice.

Slippery (Ex): All kuo-toas secrete an oily film that makes them difficult to grapple or snare. Webs, magic or otherwise, don’t
affect kuo-toas, and they usually can wriggle free from most other forms of confinement.

Adhesive (Ex): Kuo-toas use their own body oil and other materials to give their shields a finish almost like flypaper, holding
fast any creatures or items touching them. Anyone who makes an unsuccessful melee attack against a kuo-toa must succeed at
a Reflex save (DC 14), or the attacker’s weapon sticks to the shield and is yanked out of the wielder’s grip. Creatures using
natural weapons are automatically grappled if they get stuck.

Immunities (Ex): Kuo-toas are immune to poison and paralysis. The various hold spells also have no effect on them, and their
keen sight automatically detects figments for what they are.

Light Blindness (Ex): Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds kuo-toas for 1 round. In
addition, they suffer a -1 circumstance penalty to all attack rolls, saves, and checks while operating in bright light.

Amphibious (Ex): Although kuo-toas breathe by means of gills, they can survive indefinitely on land.

Skills: Kuo-toas receive a +15 racial bonus to Escape Artist checks and a +4 racial bonus to Spot and Search checks.


----------



## Piratecat

Greyshadow, Proty has his own fan club?!? Now I've seen _everything._


----------



## The Lone Badger

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Items: periapt of wisdom +4




Yay for Velendo!




He probably missed it, didn't he?


----------



## Greybar

> 6th: greater dispel magic, greater dispel magic, harm, harm, cone of cold
> 7th: blasphemy, repulsion, whirlwind of teeth (BoVD-8d8 dmg), disintegrate
> 8th: mass inflict critical wounds (4d8+17), sea mother’s storm (as firestorm: 17d6 cold damage), horrid wilting (17d6)
> 9th: miracle, implosion




Isn't it sad how the bad-guy spellcasters never really get to go through their entire repertoire?  Well, at least the PCs had better not let them.

I also like how you put the DR on the AC line.  I do things like that has well so I won't forget the dadgum things.

john


----------



## GreyShadow

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Greyshadow, Proty has his own fan club?!? Now I've seen _everything._




How many Proty's do you know that have a halfling Agar as a familiar?   

Go Proty Go!!


----------



## coyote6

Any stats for the ethereal kuo-toa-lobster-taurs that are whupping on Stone Bear, Tao, & Galthia in the current update?


----------



## Seule

They sound like Tauric Kuo-Tua-Chuul to me...  maybe Kuo-Chuul?  I have no idea where the Etherealness comes from, maybe equipment.

  --Seule


----------



## Dirigible

Phase spiders would be my guess, Seule. 

And while a Tauric Kua-Toa Phase Spider is Bastardly, it takes that extra dash of _je nes sas Rat_ to add the assassin levels.


----------



## Spatzimaus

It's been a month since the last major discussion in this thread, and with the start of the Post-A-Day Madness, I figured it'd be a good time to start again.

So, Piratecat, feel like giving any of the info about all those encounters the DoD windwalked right past?  Or anything?  Pretty please?

And for anyone else who's reading this thread, we need to come up with some sort of betting pool.  The Death Pool is already in the story hour thread, so any suggestions?


----------



## Piratecat

I'll post stats for the tauric kuo-toa assassins, as well as for Halcyon. Mmmm, she's dreamy, in an ice-cold hardass sort of way.

The PCs zoomed past all sorts of flavor encounters, but nothing essential. I'll have to look at my notes and see what they missed.


----------



## tleilaxu

i can't find the link to where the character stats and the cool pictures et al are stored.


----------



## Piratecat

All that stuff should be linked in the first post of my SH! Mmmm, handylicious.  Let me know if any links are broken.


----------



## tleilaxu

Piratecat said:
			
		

> All that stuff should be linked in the first post of my SH! Mmmm, handylicious.  Let me know if any links are broken.




doh! you know what i did? i went to the first page of _this_ thread and then said in a billy bob sling blade voice "That there link ain't round here uh uh"


----------



## Piratecat

Here te stats on one of the tauric kuo-toas:

*Chussub-lib, Male Tauric Kuo-Toa 5/Rog3/Asn9/Clr1:* Medium Monstrous Beast (Aquatic); HD 5d8+15 ( Monstrous Humanoid) , 3d6+9 ( Rogue) , 9d6+27 ( Assassin) , 1d8+3 ( Cleric) ; hp 142; Init + 8; Spd 30, Swim 50; AC 31 (Flatfooted: 27, Touch: 14); Atk +18/13 base melee, +18/13 base ranged; +24/+19/+13/+13/+13 ( 4d6+15, +3 huge cursed Chain (humanoid bane is +2 bonus, +2d6), spiked; 1d4+3, Bite; 1d10+7 x2, Claws); 

SA: Improved grapple, phase shift (Ex); SQ: Keen sight (Ex), Slippery (Ex), Light blindness (Ex), Amphibious (Ex), Immunity: Paralysis (Ex), Immunity: Poison (Ex), Immunity: Hold spells (Ex), Electricity Resistance (Ex): 30; AL NE; SV Fort + 11, Ref + 16, Will + 13; STR 24, DEX 18, CON 18, INT 15, WIS 18, CHA 6.

Skills: Bluff + 16, Disguise + 2, Escape Artist + 27, Hide + 22, Knowledge (religion) + 4, Listen + 14, Move Silently + 12, Search + 6, Sense Motive + 12, Spot + 24, Swim + 5, Tumble + 22. 

Feats: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Chain, spiked, Improved Critical: Chain, spiked, Improved Initiative, Large and in Charge, Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Chain, spiked.

Spells Prepared (Asn --/3/3/1/1): 1st - Ghost Sound, Obscuring Mist, Spider Climb; 2nd - Alter Self, Darkness, Pass without Trace; 3rd - Nondetection; 4th - Improved Invisibility.

(Clr 3/2): 0 - Create Water, Cure Minor Wounds, Detect Magic; 1st - Bless, Divine Favor, Obscuring Mist (d).

Possessions: 
Weapons: +3 Huge Cursed Chain, spiked: Bane.
Armor: Mithral Shirt.
Goods: Aquamarine; Aquamarine; Aquamarine; Aquamarine; Aquamarine; Aquamarine; A string of small pink pearls (necklace); Carved bone statuette.
Magic: Wondrous: Straps (vest) of Etheric Calm.


----------



## Piratecat

And the stats for Halcyon:

*Halcyon*

LE Daughter of Vindus; demigod (half-human) psychic warrior 20.  Self-appointed vigilante of the Gods.

Halcyon was raised with an absolute knowledge of right and wrong, but she makes her own decisions about what is correct and what isn’t. She is an expert at working the gray areas, codifying the unknown with her own codes, straightening the muddled. She is a demigoddess of straight lines and sharp demarcations, but her rulings always favor her (and her interests) instead of other people. 

When Halcyon is present, there is no gray, no flickering shadows, no blurring. Everything is a solid color, everything is a straight line and a right angle, everything is yes or no.

AC: 40  (+10 armor, +4 shield, +5 deflection, +6 insight, +3 dex, +2 dodge; +4 haste?); 50% miss chance (displacement)

S 	22 (26)								
D 	16 								
C 	21 (24)								
I 	14						
W 	13 						
CH 	20 (but unpleasant, stubborn and overly dogmatic)	

Fort +19
Ref +9
Will +9
Movement: 60’+15’
Initiative +3

Hit points:  260 + 60 temp = 320*


_* DR 10/+5 or 35/+4; first 16 points of any hit is subdual damage; immune to crits; ½ dmg from blunt weapon_

Feats (7 + 8 psionic + weapon spec): Extend power, deep impact (5pp for touch attack), psionic weapon (+1d4 dmg for 1pp), psychoanalyst, psychic inquisitor, stand still, persistent power (+8 pp), psionic dodge, iron will, weapon focus (greatsword), improved critical (greatsword), greater weapon focus (greatsword), greater specialization (greatsword), power attack, dodge, weapon specialization (greatsword) 

Skills 115:  Autohypnosis +22, Balance +23, Concentration +27, Jump +28, Tumble +23, Use psionic device +20

Combat:  Obedience: greatsword of conformity:  +32/+27/+22,  2d6 +21 (15-20, x2) +2d6 vs chaotic. 10’ reach, hasted (+2 insight, +8 str x1.5, +5 sword, +2 weapon focus)

BAB +15/+10/+5; 10’ reach, extra partial action

Psionics:  PP 129  -94
Mode check +6, resting mode brain hammer +0
Powers 3 4 3 3 3 3 3 				

1st: Psionic missiles (1pp per missile), shield, skate, psychic crush
2nd: animal affinity, combat prescience (+2 to hit), construct toughness (blunt weapons do ½ dmg, no crits)
3rd: Displacement, Improved Biofeedback, Reach (10’)
4th: Haste, Inertial Barrier, Telekinesis (20d6 dmg for 500 lb boulder)
5th: Greater fly (120’), Ectoplasmic armor (+10 armor), Energy barrier (10 pts of energy attacks converted to light)
6th: Ablating (+6 to dispel magic DCs, so DC 37), Improved Vigor (+60 temp hit points), Shield of Prudence (+6 insight to AC)

Innate powers: Teleport without error, lay on hands (100 points), Icy stare (1 pt of damage/round from where her eyes settle; boostable to a gaze attack doing 1d6+20), Define Law (decide a law, then gain +2 on all rolls to enforce it; “It is against the law to disobey my edict. The penalty for disobedience is death.”)

Items: 4th lvl pearl of power (as crystal capacitor with 7 PP), hourglass of regression (time regression 1/day, 17 pp reserve to activate), crystal sword of conformity (+5 keen mind feeder, +2d6 dmg vs chaotic), schism stone (+2 wis, schism 5/day, slotless).

Divine powers (divine rank 0): immortal (doesn't age, no need to sleep, eat, or breathe), max HP, faster mvmt, deflection bonus to AC equal to Cha modifier, immune to Transmutation, Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage, and Mind-Affecting effects, gains DR 35/+4, Fire Resistance 20, and SR 32.


----------



## Plane Sailing

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Psionics:  PP 129  -94
> Mode check +6, resting mode brain hammer +0
> 
> 1st: Psionic missiles (1pp per missile), shield, skate, psychic crush
> 
> 2nd: animal affinity, combat prescience (+2 to hit), construct toughness (blunt weapons do ½ dmg, no crits)
> 
> 3rd: Displacement, Improved Biofeedback, Reach (10’)




What is this mode check and brain hammer business? I don't recognise that from the PsiHB.

Similarly, where to psionic missiles, psychic crush, construct toughness and reach come from?

n.b. looks like one tough cookie!


----------



## Caliber

I'm not sure about most of them, but I think I saw Reach in the Mind's Eye (the WotC Psionics web-supplement)


----------



## Piratecat

The mode check and brain hammer are from Cordell's Mindscapes, which contains the first psionic combat system that I've actually thought was fast and fun. Highly recommended. Psychic crush and construct toughness (DR vs blunt weapons, IIRC) is from there as well.

Reach is in the Mind's Eye (gives you 10' reach for a short time,) Psionic missiles is just a converted magic missiles, charging 1 PP per missile (max 1 per 2 lvls.) They don't look the same, though.  You have to keep players guesing.  

"She looks at you. You feel something horrible jab into your head, stabbing pains rammed back and forth into your temples. Take 20 points of damage, no save."

Holy crap!"   

Same game mechanics + different special effects = nervous players.


----------



## Plane Sailing

Excellent, thanks.

I've often wondered about getting mindscapes, but I've not bothered with it to date because I use the psionics rules as another kind of magic (called Magery) and ditched the whole mental combat and mind-based stuff. Essentially I currently use it as a convenient point-based magic system with different spells.

In the future though - who knows?


----------



## Spatula

Halcyon: ouch!  Talk about nasty.  Still, when you said demigod, I was imagining something with 1 or more divine ranks (D&DG defines demigods as DR 1-5 I believe, DR 0 is supposed to be hero-deities) and the salient divine abilities that go with them.  But she looks very potent even without the divine abilities.  Of course, the PCs have no real reason to fight her...


----------



## Ashy

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> Well, I thought of that, but then it'd beg the question, why take the long way?




'Cause they're *MODRONS*, silly - and modrons always do things the same way unless instructed to by a higher modron.  Ergo, they are trying to get to the Outlands but have to go the long way around 'cause that is the way they've always done it....  

Oh, and Pkitty - I WANNA know!


----------



## Tellerve

Am I the only one that finds it odd that there is a displacement for her when it seems like her description would pretty much deny such things?

*shrugs*

Tellerve


----------



## Piratecat

Tellerve said:
			
		

> Am I the only one that finds it odd that there is a displacement for her when it seems like her description would pretty much deny such things?
> 
> *shrugs*
> 
> Tellerve




Of course not! That hadn't escaped me, either. It was the same game mechanic (50% miss chance), but a very different description: when in pursuit of a law, 50% of miscreants' attacks are completely deflected by her utter devotion. 

Or something like that. Easy to rationalize, and a useful game effect.

Ashy, I'm not tellin'.


----------



## Ashy

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Ashy, I'm not tellin'.




Tease....


----------



## Tellerve

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Of course not! That hadn't escaped me, either. It was the same game mechanic (50% miss chance), but a very different description: when in pursuit of a law, 50% of miscreants' attacks are completely deflected by her utter devotion.
> 
> Or something like that. Easy to rationalize, and a useful game effect.
> 
> Ashy, I'm not tellin'.




True that, true that.  I was just making sure you had a good reason, and that'll work...besides, it rocks!  LOL

Tellerve


----------



## JacktheRabbit

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Of course not! That hadn't escaped me, either. It was the same game mechanic (50% miss chance), but a very different description: when in pursuit of a law, 50% of miscreants' attacks are completely deflected by her utter devotion.
> 
> Or something like that. Easy to rationalize, and a useful game effect.
> 
> Ashy, I'm not tellin'.




In your pantheon has no other deity claimed the portfolio of law and order? It seems rather odd that a demi-god like this could be running around with such a powerful portfolio.

Also it was a huge event when a true Goddess died but I am assuming that Demigods die often enough that there are no real repurcussions from it.


----------



## der_kluge

I don't normally come into the Rogue's Gallery, but I saw this thread, and thought "hey, that looks interesting".  Imagine my revulsion when I saw that it had 37 pages.

Really, that's quite disgusting.

Like this - something I cooked up for my PCs to fight *eventually*.

Monstrous Scorpion of Chaos, Colossal
Colossal Vermin (Chaotic)
Hit Dice: 40d8+120 (300 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
AC: 27 (–8 size, –1 Dex, +26 natural), touch 1, flat-footed 27
Base Attack/Grapple: +30/+58
Attacks: Bite +27 melee
Damage: Bite 3d8+19
Face/Reach: 20 ft. by 20. ft/20 ft.
Special Attacks: Trample 3d8+19, Summon Slaad
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, Acid, Cold, Fire, Resistance to acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5, Immunity to sonic, Fast-Healing 5, Spell Resistance 15
Saves: Fort +24, Ref +14, Will +16
Abilities: Str 37, Dex 10, Con 27, Int 1, Wis 14, Cha 4
Skills: Hide –4, Listen +5, Spot +5
Feats: Great Fortitude
CR: 17
Alignment: Chaotic neutral

Monstrous scorpions are likely to attack any creature that approaches, and they usually charge when attacking prey.
Constrict (Ex): A monstrous scorpion deals automatic claw damage on a successful grapple check.
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a monstrous scorpion must hit with a claw attack. A monstrous scorpion can use either its Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for grapple checks, whichever is better.
Poison (Ex): A monstrous scorpion has a poisonous sting. The details vary by the scorpion’s size, as follows. The save DCs are Constitution- based. The indicated damage is initial and secondary damage.

____

Creature of Chaos (Template)
Sometimes, a creature becomes tainted with the essence of pure chaos – a very powerful form of energy.  This essence can come in many forms – spending too much time in the planes of chaos (especially Limbo) or prolonged exposure to raw, untainted pure chaos, perhaps from some decaying artifact, or a source of chaos.  Whatever the cause, creatures of chaos can come in almost any form, and from all outward appearances, are no different than they were before the chaotic taint infused itself into them.
	A creature of chaos often behaves for more erratically and unusual than they did prior to becoming chaotic.  A creature of chaos becomes, either unwilling or willing, a servant of chaos, and a perpetrator of chaotic deeds (either benign or malignant) wherever they go.

Creating a Creature of Chaos
A creature of Chaos has all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
Size and Type: The creature of chaos’ type changes to Chaotic.  Do not recalculate Hit Dice, base attack bonus, or saves.  Size is unchanged. 
Speed: The creature of chaos’ speed remains unchanged.
Armor Class: Natural armor improves by +1 (this stacks with any natural armor the base creature has)
Attack: The creature of chaos does not gain any additional attacks or attack modes.
Special Attacks: The creature of chaos retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains the following special attack.
Smite Law (Su): Once per day, the creature can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against a lawful foe.
Summon Slaad (Sp): Once per day, a creature of chaos can attempt to summon 1d4 red slaad with a 40% chance of success.  This ability is equivalent to a 3rd-level spell.
Special Qualities: The creature of chaos retains all the special qualities of the base creature, plus the following special qualities.
- Darkvision out to 60 feet.
- Immunity to sonic damage
- Resistance to acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5.
- Fast Healing 5
- A creature of chaos’ natural weapons are treated as chaotic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
- Spell Resistance 15
Challenge Rating: Always Chaotic Neutral
Level Adjustment: +4


----------



## Piratecat

Curtis, SWEET!

Doc, Deifos (greater god) as control of law.  Vindus (lesser god) has control of vengeance and justice. Halcyon has a feeble grasp on boundaries, and is hoping for more.


----------



## Kugar

Ashy said:
			
		

> Oh, and Pkitty - I WANNA know!



The wedding doesn't bother me anymore, I'm more worried about the bachelorette party.


----------



## JacktheRabbit

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Curtis, SWEET!
> 
> Doc, Deifos (greater god) as control of law.  Vindus (lesser god) has control of vengeance and justice. Halcyon has a feeble grasp on boundaries, and is hoping for more.





So she is the Demi-god of lawyers. 

That explains it.


----------



## der_kluge

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Curtis, SWEET!




Glad you like it.  What would be cool is if someone culled this thread and pulled out all the crunchy bits.  That would be an awesome thread.

I'll try to post up the *Titanic Toad of Chaos* when I get a chance.  It burps up Slaad!


----------



## Spatzimaus

die_kluge said:
			
		

> Glad you like it.  What would be cool is if someone culled this thread and pulled out all the crunchy bits.  That would be an awesome thread.




This thread IS pure crunchy bits.  That's why I love it so much.  Every time I need ideas, I browse through all the sheer ratbastardliness to find what I need.  Take Akin's Throat, for example; we all brainstormed on that for pages and pages, so when I needed NPCs to flesh out an evil city, I just started, err, "being inspired by" the ideas here.

While I WOULD like to hear what the plan is for Agar, I don't think we're really prepared for it since to us, the PCs still haven't finished the White Kingdom yet.  Besides, half the fun is reading all of the "I can't believe he did that" posts from the players.


----------



## Waylander the Slayer

*please inspire me...err*

PKitty

I was wondering of you had the stats etc. for some of the older encounters from your campaign. I am particularly interested in the Al'quith? corrupted version and all those crazed out 2 headed gnolls. I would consider it an early xmas present and will bake some grandmas soft baked choc chip cookies for you!!    ....


----------



## Ruined

Hi PirateCat. Wondering if you'd care to post the stats on the Brain Golem?  I've got some info from when somebody posted one on EN World a year ago. Wondering if its the same critter and how advanced it is.


----------



## Piratecat

Waylander, I'll try to track those down.

Ruined, I never statted it out. I came up with it on the spot as stage dressing, so by then I knew they weren't planning to eradicate everything in sight.  I remembered a 2e brain golem and just went with that. 

If they had tried to attack it, I would have faked the stats.


----------



## Plane Sailing

die_kluge said:
			
		

> Attacks: Bite +27 melee
> Damage: Bite 3d8+19




If it is a scorpion, why has it got a bite? what happened to its claw and sting attacks?

Normally a colossal scorpion would have 

Claw +34 melee (2d8+12)
2 claws +34 melee (2d8+12) and sting +29 melee (2d8+6 plus poison)

Cheers


----------



## Waylander the Slayer

*Brain Golem...*

The brain golem is from the Illithiad- a great book and still usesful IMHO - i have a 3e conversion of it and i will post it on here in the next week or so (insane work weeks right now) - i am working on converting and adding stuff (especially all the cool psionic toys in the illithiad) as well if anyone is interested. Hmmm illithid sensory candy anyone?


Thanks for looking PC


----------



## Seule

Brain Golems are in the Fiend Folio, as well as a lot of other icky Illithiddy stuff.

  --Seule


----------



## Piratecat

Well, see? Whaddaya know?

I never statted out the elder brain, either. I assumed lvl 25 psion with extra special effects. It worked perfectly.


----------



## BSF

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Well, see? Whaddaya know?
> 
> I never statted out the elder brain, either. I assumed lvl 25 psion with extra special effects. It worked perfectly.




Piratecat, I think it is great that you 'fess up to making things up.  I sometimes wonder if these threads intimidate some DM's because they start thinking they have to detail out monsters _all_ the time.  

It's good to stat out the things you know your PC's will fight.  But, there is nothing wrong with winging it at times as well.


----------



## Henry

OK, I just couldn't bring myself to mention this in the Defenders Story Hour Thread, but...

...Didn't Nolin AND Telay both go to study magic at Hagiok's academy?

And Just HOW accomplished is she? Could she be, say... a 21st level Wizard Vampire with the ability to jump into Ghoulish Bodies?

"Ambassador Soder" had Mridsgate cleaned and Perfumed... which sounds like it fits a Sensate to a "T".

The DoD's assumed that the puppeteer was

(A) Male and
(B) a Ghoul.

Is EITHER truthfully the case?


----------



## the Jester

Henry said:
			
		

> OK, I just couldn't bring myself to mention this in the Defenders Story Hour Thread, but...
> 
> ...Didn't Nolin AND Telay both go to study magic at Hagiok's academy?




Thank you for your discretion.

This idea has come up before in this thread... and a certain cat we both know asked everyone to hush up and keep it here. 

Leading one to believe that you just might have something there....


----------



## WizarDru

PC has mentioned that the Defenders have assumed that their actually dealing with Abassador Soder...when we have only circumstantial evidence to work off of.  I think the only time Ambassador Soder has shown up is in Agar's vision.  

The repeated dropping of Telay's name is all to set up what is to come.  They keep running across snippets of references to her, and so forth.  The most recent discussion, wherein "Soder" professes to liking the defenders, and the specific reference to Nolin, makes a lot of sense if one assume that it's Telay speaking, and not Soder.


----------



## Allanon

Of course Piratecat could be just adding this innuendo to make his player's think this (he is one of *THE* RBDM's). Playing with their mind so to say. 

   We know that the puppeteer can control undead.
   We know that Telay was according to our last intel  a vampire.

 They might just run into Telay as she is controlled, the subtle hints adding to the feeling that they have finally confronted their nemesis. And let's see what happens then. We know that the puppeteer has employed this tactic before (anyone remember our undead dwarven defender  ).


----------



## Piratecat

Boy, I sure considered this.  But Telay's abilities were well defined; she's a high-lvl bard, not a wizard, so when this idea occurred to me it was too late to retrofit Soder into it. As a result, I threw this in as a little red herring, causing the party to think about it as well.

Soder isn't anyone you've met before; he has a long and storied history working side-by-side with the Ivory King, and he knows thing that no one else does. He also has some secrets and some quirks, but they're a little different.

You'll see pretty soon that I'm saving the rat bastardiness for a different little trick that I think you'll like it.  And boy, it's a doozy.  

Telay will probably be back in a future adventure, when she fixates on Nolin's daughter. That's in the future, though.


----------



## Benben

What were the templates on that hydra?  It was certainly evocative.


----------



## Piratecat

Fairly simple: 16 heads and true ghoulish, so it drained strength on a hit. I tossed in the revenant worm breath weapon as a fun afterthought.


----------



## Benben

Yes, nothing says fun like Revenant worms.  

The psionic wall stealing player secrets and then sharing with the party, is a trick of yours I was just able to use.

I changed the McGuffin, and included 4 secrets of an enemy with which the party is temporarily allied.  Adding those made it easier for the players to swallow--save for the couple who gave very telling and sensitive secrets.

I'm dribbling out the secrets now, but it's made for some great insight and role-playing.  Thanks for the trick.


----------



## Steverooo

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I think I'm hiring you folk as executive consultants.    WHY didn't I think of the ballistae idea myself? And the undead arrow idea is superb.  I'll just stow that away for future use.  But I don't think you'll be disappointed anyways! We'll find out in a few days.




The Sinbad movie had something like this, using Dragon teeth...  An arrow whose head is made from a dragon's tooth, which animates as a skeleton, upon impact...  Not a lot of use against the DoD, though.

Maybe a Mohrg?  Or a Mohrghoule!


----------



## Talix

Question: If the players are way past this point in the story, and have already encountered and (presumably) defeated Sodor, is there a particular reason we're acting like we have to keep the secret from them in the main story hour?  Is it just to sustain suspense for the readers who don't want to read this thread (an admirable goal), or is there further information we might give away, or what?  Or is it just the principle of the thing?


----------



## BSF

Talix - All the above.  


Besides, there are a lot of things that come up here that Piratecat is preparing to spring on the PC's.  Note a lot of the earlier brainstorming on what a Kou-toa city would be like.  It is difficult to really keep track of what surprises haven't been sprung yet.


----------



## Piratecat

It is, indeed, all of the above.

In addition to avoiding spoilers and not wanting to start a precedent of cross-thread sharing, the group _didn't_ necessarily defeat him; he might crop up again in the game, so I'm not interested in sharing details about him with the group!

He's left his mark on the group, though. Oh yes.


----------



## pogre

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Soder isn't anyone you've met before; he has a long and storied history working side-by-side with the Ivory King, and he knows thing that no one else does. He also has some secrets and some quirks, but they're a little different.




Well, I came here to ask a strange question concerning Soder, but I think I'm barking up the wrong tree. I had wondered if Soder was related to the 15th century translation of the Greek word Soter. Soter is commonly translated as Savior. You may know the word Soter as the last from the Christian fish symbol IXTHUS - Iesuos Christos Theos Uios, Soter.

Clearly, I am wrong if the pcs have defeated soter, but I thought Soder=Savior might be the ultimate plot twist.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled RBDM goodness and away from my mad ravings...


----------



## Talix

Piratecat said:
			
		

> He's left his mark on the group, though. Oh yes.




Can't wait to read about the details!


----------



## Vargo

Talix said:
			
		

> Can't wait to read about the details!




I'm wondering if anybody died a true death this time.  Last time we had a bodycount (and the characters refused to return to life) was with the troll/illithid crossbreed waaaaay back at the beginning of this story hour.

After that, I don't seem to remember anybody dying, but I could be wrong...


----------



## Piratecat

Agar has ded since, but was brought back. I think it's fair to say yes; someone died a true death.


----------



## Spatzimaus

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I think it's fair to say yes; someone died a true death.




Preferably the Ivory King.

And really, when the people involved have access to _Wish_ and are friends with various and sundry deities, how exactly do you keep them from coming back?  When Valdek was killed by the Trillith, wasn't his permadeath because the player was moving to the West Coast or something?  Or was he one of those where the player wanted to change characters?


----------



## aithdim

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> When Valdek was killed by the Trillith, wasn't his permadeath because the player was moving to the West Coast or something?  Or was he one of those where the player wanted to change characters?




I moved to Vermont and had told my supposed girl friend   that I didn't want to be raised. (Supposed because she ended up marrying a prince or something).  Fortunately Valdek is now enjoying himself in Valhalla and doesn't care about such earthly things. 

I'm really not a left coast kind of guy. I'll take blizzards etc... over earth quakes anyday.


----------



## Knightfall

el bumpo


----------



## qstor

thanks Piratecat for pointing this thread out good stuff here.

Mike


----------



## clockworkjoe

*Burr-Lipp's and others stats?*

Hi, on page 22 of the story thread and I just wanted to ask if anyone has posted Burr-lipp's stats? He's only mentioned a few times in the story and I wonder what his relationship to the party is, if he's a cohort of someone or what?

Also, what are the stats of the dwarven soldiers following splinder?


----------



## the Jester

I'd like to see said stats too. 

I believe Burr-Lipp was picked up in Akin's Throat- he's a bullywug fighter or something, right?  :\


----------



## GreyShadow

Do all the dwarves have names? Or are they just Dwarf A, B, C etc?


----------



## clockworkjoe

the Jester said:
			
		

> I'd like to see said stats too.
> 
> I believe Burr-Lipp was picked up in Akin's Throat- he's a bullywug fighter or something, right?  :\




I knew that, but the story never specifically describes how he's recruited or why he wants to help the defenders or even his capability as a fighter.


----------



## Suldulin

clockworkjoe said:
			
		

> I knew that, but the story never specifically describes how he's recruited or why he wants to help the defenders or even his capability as a fighter.




iirc he was one of the gladiators in the arena


----------



## clockworkjoe

Suldulin said:
			
		

> iirc he was one of the gladiators in the arena




i knew that. But the story just mentions that one of the defenders say "We'll take the gladiator" and then he's not even mentioned until a fight after they've left the city. A big gap there.


----------



## RangerWickett

Inspired by Pkitty's recent posting of an update, I was rebrowsing this thread.

I wanted to 'bookmark' this post and the ones thereafter, at Akin's Throat, but I'm at work, so this is the next best thing:  http://www.enworld.org/forums/showpost.php?p=489294&postcount=375

Great stuff there.


----------



## Piratecat

Did I really miss including Burr-Lipp's background? Man, big mistake on my part. I'll have to do some editing and add that in.

He's infatuated (in a hero-worshipping way) with Malachite. He's actually borderline evil and certainly sadistic, but keeps it quite well under wraps while he's with the rest of the group. He's trying to do what's right because that's how Malachite acts, and maybe a little bit of it is rubbing off. He can't speak common and isn't very bright, though, so he doesn't get a lot of face time.


----------



## tleilaxu

hey PC, where are the PC character sheets these days?


----------



## Piratecat

In limbo, my friend. They'll be going up on the new site run by Blackjack, but we're avoiding that for the minute to hide who died.  

Any particular questions?


----------



## Suldulin

bump


----------



## the Jester

Hey PKitty, how bout the Ivory King's stats?


----------



## Spatzimaus

Ah-buh-duh-dump-BUMP!

Okay, it's been almost three months since the last post on this thread.  Can we get some information?  Stats for the Ivory King?  The opportunity to give more RBDM help?  Veiled hints about Agar's eventual fate?  Anything?

Pretty please?

Is something wrong when you care more about the characters in someone else's D&D game than you do about the other PCs in your own?  *sobs uncontrollably*


----------



## Piratecat

You bet! If you want to help, I can use help -- and I'll be pleased to post stats of ole' fugly himself. Unfortunately, those are currently on a dead computer and my online storage (the rat bastard club) recently keeled over from a bad database, but I'll see if I have them printed out as well.

HELP REQUEST

Let's assume that we have three cabals of devils working at cross purposes to one another. One group has a general "shapeshifter/malleable flesh" theme going for them, one is oriented towards flies, and I have no theme for the third group. I'd love it if people could offer thematic suggestions, detail the types of devils or creatures that might be in a cabal, and/or give some thought to the nobles of Hell who might be sponsoring them.

Thanks! Is that enough information?


----------



## Piratecat

Ivory King stats from my notes - probably not the final version, as it's still in rough form, but it'll give you an idea. Finding this made me realize I need to adjust the story hour in a few places!

_He looms huge in the rubble, the same color white as you’d see on a rotting mushroom. His bald, fleshy head almost looks too small atop of his huge and bloated naked body. Now that his fat ripples have bulged out, you can see that he has arcane runes carved directly into his flesh. Black energy crackles across him, and his skin steams and burns where the sunlight touches it. You can see his crown of bones, a few things tied around where his waist should be, metal bracers buried in the fat of his wrists, and something clutched in one huge meaty hand. His eyes are tiny and black, and his gaping mouth is huge. Then six more sets of arms burrow out from the flab like white worms rising from rotten meat. His fingernails clack against one another in anticipation._


The Ivory King

Spell-stitched demigod (divine rank 0)
40d12 (480 hp) + 40 temp hp = 520 hp
init +4
Speed 60’
AC 40 or 45 (+16 natural, -1 size, deflection +6, armor +9, +5 expertise?), touch 15, flat-footed 31
Attacks: bite +32 (19-20) and unholy tongue +31 melee; tongue grapple +36
Damage: bite 2d6+13/19-20/vorpal bite, unholy barbed tongue 1d6+14 (+2d6 vs good), + SPECIAL
Face/reach: 10’x10’/10’; 30’ range for tongue
SA: aura of pain, vorpal bite, unholy tongue, spells, frightful presence, paralyzation, str drain 2 pts, gluttony
SQ: ethereal jaunt, fast healing 10 (20 in the corpse), scent, see invisibility, undead traits, +4 turn resistance, SR 32, DR 35/+4, see in darkness, immune to cold and acid, fire resistance 20, unholy aura
Saves: fort +20, Ref +20, will +37
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 11, Con --, Int 24, Wis 21, Cha 22+8=30

Skills: Bluff +70, Concentration +50, Diplomacy +50, Gather Information +50, Intimidate +50, Knowledge (religion) +47, Listen +45, sense motive +45, spot +45

Feats: expertise, improved bull rush, improved critical (bite), (improved grab (tongue)), improved initiative, improved trip, mighty grappler, multi-attack, power attack, sunder, +12 feats: undead mastery, spectral strike, planar turning (rebuke outsiders), leadership, epic leadership, legendary commander, epic reputation, epic skill focus (bluff).

Gains immunity to Transmutation, Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage, and Mind-Affecting effects

Spells: 4/4/2/2/2/1 a day
Two 1st: tenser’s floating disk, obscuring mist, ??
Two 2nd: stinking cloud, ??, ??, ??
Two 3rd: halt undead, vampiric touch
Two 4th: contagion, enervation
Two 5th: Wall of force, Mordenkainen’s faithful hound, or…
One 6th: Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere, or…

Conj, evoc, nec only

Hasted: extra partial action every round!
Unholy aura: hit him and make a DC 24 fort save, or take 6 pts of str damage (from crown)
Gluttony: on arrival only, DC 24 fort save or go insane with hunger for 4 minutes, eating anything.
Wracking pain: DC 40 fort save, or 60’ r. gets -2 Dex, -4 on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks.
Fast healing: he heals 10 pts per round, more if bathed in negative energy.
Ethereal jaunt: Good for a quick escape or maneuver, including crushing attacks. (from crown)
His attacks HURT: 2 pts Str drain, paralyzation DC 36, vorpal bite and unholy tongue +2d6
Magic Fang: His tongue attack and bite attack are the equivalent of +5
Extra arms: Don’t do anything, but look really scary when they worm out of his body
Spawning touch: It’s only DC 24 fort, but turns an enemy into an ally. (from crown)

Don’t worry about:

Frightful presence (20’ r, Will save (DC 40, or shaken; -2 morale to attacks, saves and checks). Everyone is currently immune to fear, thanks to the heroes feast.

Magic items:
Jeweled heart of charisma +8, jeweled and glorious: adds +10 to bluff. Inside of his chest.
Bracers of armor +9
Cube of force
Bone-puppets (control body)
Crown of entrails: DC 24 fort touch attack or spawn; unholy aura (6 pt str loss if attacked, DC 24); see ethereal, ethereal jaunt.
Bone scepter of rotting


----------



## Ashy

Ewwwwww.....!

Working on that help request, PC!


----------



## Piratecat

Don't worry about too much details. Just brainstorming ideas would be a great help. I'm having trouble making my fiends memorable and distinct.


----------



## Ashy

Well, you can always go the template route.  Instead of making one group dedicated only to flies, you can have them insect-focused.  Maggot-like lemures and nupperibos, spider/scorpion barbazu/spinagons, kocrachons (aready beetle-like), cockroach pit-fiends, waspish mezzikim, mantis hamatulas, oslyluths are already scorpion-like, butterfly/moth erinyes, gelugons are already matis-like, ant-like cornugeons, bee imps, etc.  

A good site for buggy ideas: http://www.insects.org/

More to come...


----------



## The Forsaken One

Here are some demons, who could be transformed into devils with a bit which I created for my own game. Maybe gives some inspiration, allthough the CRs are a bit low.


Divraskuhl, Red Tide[3.5] 
Huge Outsider [Demon] (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil) 
Hit Dice: 18d8+54 (126 hp)
Initiative: +9 (Improved Initiative) 
Speed: 20 ft., swim 90 ft.
Armor Class: 27 (+5 Dex, +14 natural, -2 size), touch 13, flat-footed 22
Base Attack/Grapple: +18/+36 
Attack: Slam +26 melee (2d6+15) 
Full Attack: Slam +26 melee (2d6+15) 
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Red Tide, Undertow, Frightful presence, Spelllike abilities, Water Mastery, Drench, Vortex
Special Qualities: DR 20/magic, incomprehensible, outsider traits, immunities (critical hits, mind-affecting effects, stunning), SR 20
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +6, Will +6 
Abilities: Str 31, Dex 21, Con 16, Int 20, Wis 17, Cha 16
Skills: Hide +26, Intimidate +24, Knowledge (arcana) +26, Knowledge (the planes) +26, Knowledge (Trackless Sea) +26, Knowledge (Miraleen) +26, Listen +24, Move Silently +26, Search +26, Sense Motive +24, Spellcraft +26, Spot +24, Swim +39
Feats: Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Bullrush, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Sunder
Challenge Rating: 14

Divraskuhl is approximately 35' in height and weighs 70000 lbs. 

On the surface Divraskuhl appears as a surging, frothing wave of thick, red seawater, approximately 35 ft high. Beneath the surface however Divraskuhl is almost like a cloud of ink flowing on the currents, exept in daylight or in artificial illumination it can be seen that this cloud is not black, but a deep red. And on land Divraskuhl takes on the appearance of a huge red stained Water Elemental.
Divraskuhl came to Aryth’s seas in the time before years, she was a gentle and caring spirit then still known as Urothannriar that saught to travel all the seas, oceans and rivers of the world and revel in their beauties. Her travels of the world brought her to Aryth where she stumbled upon shrines of the Elthedar that rose from the waters west of a land yet unknown to her. The beauty of the towers, shrines and temples as they glow beneath the sun proved to Urothannriar that there was beauty above the surface of the waters of this world. She rose as a gigantic wave of saphire beauty that clashed gently against the shores of the small islands.
There it was that she lingered for hundreds of years in silent contemplation with the priesthood of the elthedar and the thousands of pilgrims that came to their shrines in search of clarity and serenity. She provided them with calm weathers and staved of most of the storms and hardship that nature bestowed upon this small archipellago. But not all things of peace and beauty persist, especially not in the world known as Aryth. The Sundering came and fell spirits arose from the depths, awaken by their dark masters fall. Izrador’s fall was long, and so was the battle for the small islands far from the western coast of Eredane but in the end a large black spirit of storm and tide rose from the depths  and washed over the shrines. Urothannriar battled the spirit for a time not longer remembered by tides and wind. In the end the once beautifull islands were wrecked and drawn back to the depths of the ocean from which they had risen when the world was created. With them went their guardian, alone, battered but victorious over her nemises. But a hollow victory it was, for that which she had fought for was destroyed in the process. And with Urothannriar went the essence of the spirit she had defeated, absorbed into her own in order to quiet the malign spirit for all the ages left to this world so it could not rise again. 
In time her spite, her anger at herself for not being able to be to fullfill her duties as a guardian consumed her. Her sane mind spiralled away into the black nothingness that lies at the bottom of the ocean. And there, beneath the crumbling ruins of the shrines her spite nurtured a seed deep in her mind and so Urothannriar fell. Her insane mind mingled with the essence of her once defeated foe and from the depth they, it, or whatever had formed over those millenia in the dark rose, and with it the terrible legend of Divraskuhl, a Red Tide.

Red Tide (Ex): This terrifying ability causes a surging, frothing wave of thick, red seawater to wash over everything in a burst centered on Divraskuhl, 180 feet wide and 18 feet high. All creatures in the area of this red tide which earned Divraskuhl its name are immediately knocked prone and must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 21). Swimming or flying creatures in the area aren't knocked prone, but they suffer a -4 penalty on the Fortitude save.
A creature that makes its Fortitude save against Divraskuhl’s red tide ability is sickened for 1 minute and takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks for that time. A creature that fails this saving throw is horribly ruined by the poisonous effects of Divraskuhl’s tainted water. Such creatures are immediately nauseated for 1 minute, and they take 1d6 points of temporary Strength damage. After 1 minute, the nausea ends but the creature must make a second Fortitude saving throw or take an additional 1d6 points of temporary Strength damage. Creatures that are immune to poison are immune to these effects of this red tide.
This tainted water vanishes after a few seconds of turbulence. All open flames in the area are extinguished if they fail a Reflex save; likewise, all creatures with the Fire subtype take 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 20d6), or half with a successful Reflex save. It takes Divraskuhl 1d4+1 rounds to reform itself. During this time Divraskuhl cannot be attacked or be the target of a spell.
Undertow (Ex): With a successful grapple check (grapple bonus +33, including a +5 racial bonus on grapple checks), Divraskuhl may engulf a creature of up to its own size category. Creatures so engulfed face drowning (see the Dungeon Master's Guide, page 85). Divraskuhl may eject the engulfed creature at any time. A victim that is still alive when it emerges from the Divraskuhl’s body (whether by escaping the demon's hold or by being ejected) takes 1d6 points of Wisdom damage because of the strain on its sanity that the sensation of drowning in this tainted water produced. Furthermore, the victim creature must make a successful Fortitude save (DC 21) on emerging or be affected by Divraskuhl’s Red Tide ability.
Frightful Presence (Su): Nomatter where or to whom Divraskuhl appears, it inspires terror in all who behold its power. All creatures within 100 feet that have fewer Hit Dice or levels than it has must succeed at a Will save (DC 15) or become panicked for 4d6 rounds if it has 4 or fewer Hit Dice or shaken for 4d6 rounds if it has 5 or more Hit Dice. A successful save leaves that opponent immune to Divraskuhl’s frightful presence for 24 hours. 
Immunities(Ex): Divraskuhl’s alien psychology and physiology make it immune to critical hits, mind-affecting effects, stunning.
Incomprehensible (Ex): Because of Divraskuhl’s now alien mindset, the gurgling language it speaks cannot be understood by any known means. No mundane or magical effect that usually allows verbal communication (including a tongues spell) allows any other creature to understand it. It does appear however that Divraskuhl can understand languages such as the Miransil dialect of Elven, the Traders Tongue, Orcish or even the Black Tongue. Because Divraskuhl is capable of understanding other languages, it is not immune to language-dependent effects.
Water Mastery (Ex): Divraskuhl gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls if both it and its opponent are touching water. If the opponent or Divraskuhl is touching the ground, the elemental takes a –4 penalty on attack and damage rolls. (These modifiers are not included in the statistics block.)
Divraskuhl can be a serious threat to a ship that crosses its path. It can easily overturn small craft (up to 90 feet of lengh) and stop larger vessels (180 feet long). Even large ships (360 feet long) can be slowed to half speed.

Drench (Ex): Divraskuhl’s touch puts out torches, campfires, exposed lanterns, and other open flames of nonmagical origin if these are of Large size or smaller. Divraskuhl can dispel magical fire it touches as greater dispel magic (caster level 18).

Vortex (Ex): Divraskuhl can transform itself into a whirlpool once every 10 minutes, provided it is underwater, and remain in that form for up to 9 rounds. In vortex form, Divraskuhl can move through the water or along the bottom at its swim speed. The vortex is 5 feet wide at the base, up to 45 feet wide at the top, and between 10 or 50 feet or more tall. Divraskuhl  controls the exact height, but it must be at least 10 feet.
Divraskuhl‘s movement while in vortex form does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even if it enters the space another creature occupies. Another creature might be caught in the vortex if it touches or enters the vortex, or if Divraskuhl moves into or through the creature’s space.
Creatures one or more size categories smaller than Divraskuhl may take when caught in the vortex and may be swept up by it. An affected creature must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 25) when it comes into contact with the vortex or take 2d8 points of damage. It must also succeed on a second Reflex save or be picked up bodily and held suspended in the powerful currents, automatically taking damage each round and be affected by Divraskuhl’s Red Tide ability. An affected creature is allowed a Reflex save each round to escape the vortex. The creature still takes damage, but can leave if the save is successful. 
Creatures trapped in the vortex cannot move except to go where the elemental carries them or to escape the whirlpool. Creatures caught in the whirlpool can otherwise act normally, but must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + spell level) to cast a spell. Creatures caught in the whirlpool take a –4 penalty to Dexterity and a –2 penalty on attack rolls. Divraskuhl can have only as many creatures trapped inside the vortex at one time as will fit inside the vortex’s volume.
Divraskuhl can eject any carried creatures whenever it wishes, depositing them wherever the vortex happens to be.
If the vortex’s base touches the bottom, it creates a swirling cloud of debris. This cloud is centered on Divraskuhl and has a diameter equal to half the vortex’s height. The cloud obscures all vision, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. Creatures 5 feet away have concealment, while those farther away have total concealment.
Those caught in the cloud must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell.
While in vortex form, Divraskuhl cannot make slam attacks and does not threaten the area around it.

Skills: Divraskuhl has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

Death of Divraskuhl: If Divraskuhl is slain on land, his essence will seep harmlessly into the soil where his tainted waters will be purged by nature and turn the surrounding lands into a fertile have for plants and plantlike creatures. Every plant that exists or will be planted in the future in a 18 mile radius around where Divraskuhl was destroyed will grow at twice its normal growth rate and live twice as long.

If Divraskuhl is slain however while in a sea or ocean, it will erupt in a titanic red wave. This wave, 180 miles wide and 60 feet high will race towards the nearest coast as a red tidal wave of unimaginable proportions. Once it reaches the coast the destruction it will unleash shall be on a scale unprecedented for the western Erethor. Everyone caught in this tidal wave much make a Fortitude save or suffer 2d6 points of temporary constitution loss then and make a secondairy Fortitude save a day later or suffer another 2d6 points of temporary constitution loss. Creature immune to poison are also immune to this effect.


==============



Rashnak the Ravager [3.5] 
Medium Outsider [Demon] (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil) 
Hit Dice: 5d8 + 22 (43hp) 
Initiative: +10 (+4 Improved Initiative, +6 dex) 
Speed: 50’ (10 squares) 
Armor Class: 21 (+5 natural, +6 dex), touch 16, flat-footed 15 
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+6 
Attack: Claw +12 melee (1d6+5) 
Full Attack: 2 claws +11 melee (1d6+1) and bite +6 (1d4) 
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, Feeding Frenzy.
Special Qualities: Hunger, Stalker, Damage reduction 10/magic, immunity to acid and poison, resistance to fire 5, spell resistance 14, Scent.
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +10, Will +7 
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 23, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 14 
Skills: Climb +15, Concentration +15, Hide +6, Listen +15, Spot +15, Move Silently +2, Search +3 
Feats: Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Track (B)
Challenge Rating: 5 

Rashnak speaks Abyssal. 

Rashnak is approximately 5' in height and weighs 80 lbs. 

Cursed with an undying hunger Rashnak appears as an Elf of exceptionally small stature and it is this appearance that has led many a Dansil or Elfling to its demize. His hair short and black, his skin smooth and a deep crimson, he stalks the southern jungles of the Erethor. His face eternally contorted in a painfull grimace as his undying hunger drives him ever on into the thicket of the Southern Jungles. He prefers to wear no clothes of any sort but occasionally dresses himself in the clothes of a recent victim to lure even more Elves to a gruesome end. Finally, his teeth are a perfect set of oversized white fangs protruding from both jaws. His teeth just to long to fit well in his mouth cause as constant trickle of blood to seep from his mouth as he bites his oversized teeth into the flesh of his own mouth as he bites down in the eternal anguish of hunger.

Spell-like abilities: At will - Ghoul Touch, Invisibility. Caster level 7th. 

Hunger: If a Rashnak doesn’t at least consume the corpse of one medium size creature once per day, he suffers a cumulative -1 penalty to attack, damage and saves per day he hasn’t fed. If Rashnak hasn’t fed for at least 10 days it gains a negative level for every day not fed. When the number of negative levels equals Rashnak's total number of hitdice Rashnak the Ravager is permanently destroyed.

Stalker: Once Rashnak has caught the scent of a target and he has been tracking his target for over an hour he gains the following benefits:
Rashnak can track a target at any speed without suffering any penalties to his survival checks. He also can run for up to a hour per point of constitution before having to make a constitution check or become fatigued while tracking a target.

Feeding frenzy: Rashnak can consume a medium size dead or helpless target in 1 round, large in 2 rounds, huge in 4, gargantuan in 8, colossal in 16 rounds, and small corpses in a standard action, smaller targets then Small size always takes at least a standard action. Rashak regains lost hitpoints at a rate of 6 hitpoints per consumed HD and after consuming a corpse of at least medium size Rashnak gains 1 extra standard action a round for the duration of 1 round/HD consumed from one creature. (Multiple consumations overlap and do not stack).
Hitpoints gained by use of this ability in excess of his maximum amount of hitpoints are treated as temporary hitpoints which fade away after 1 hour per HD of the target consumed. (Multiple consumations overlap and do not stack).
A creature whos corpse has been consumed in Rashnak's feeding frenzy can’t be raised of ressurrected. Only a wish or miracle can bring a person consumed this way back to life but even this kind of powerfull magic has a 50% chance of failure.

Tactics: Rashnak despizes combat. He prefers to feed on the remants of the fallen left behind by others to avoid any risks to himself. If unable to find any fresh meat he preferably turns himself invisible and uses his Ghoul Touch ability on the weakest looking available target. After succesfully paralysing his victim his consumes it with its Feeding Frenzy ability and flees as quickly as he can.

If he doesn't feel severely threatened or sees other targets erupt into panic he revels in the horror and comes tearing with its claws after the rest screaming an unearthly high pitched scream.

Death of Rashnak: If Rashnak is slain on the Prime Material plane, his remains will continue to lose an unnatural ammount of blood. If the body is not utterly destroyed by any means the blood will continue to seep into the surroundings for two whole weeks. 

After these two weeks, nature itself is violated as the unholy blood seeps into the ground and turns it into a faint crimson and a 240ft radius around his corpse is utterly defiled. Trees twist into unnatural and depraved forms of their original selves and every form of life is mutated by the vile blood that now runs through the land. Every living creature entering this area must succeed at a Will save DC 12 or feel  a sudden craving for living flesh and will succumb to this craving in 1d4 rounds and attack the nearest living creature or go in search of one. This effect last for 1 hour.

Every drop of blood spilled onto the defiled ground empowers the return of the Ravager. After 666 points of damage has been dealt in the 240ft radius area, Rashnak the Ravager will rise again from the bloodstained ground to continue his bloody feast.


===========================


Yxbudur’zmutkimdu the Terror in the Walls [3.5] 
Large Outsider [Demon] (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)
Hit Dice: 6d8 + 72 (120hp) 
Initiative: +10 ( +10 dex) 
Speed: 120' (walk), 120' (climb) (24 squares) 
Armor Class: 32 (10 + 9 Natural, +10 Dex, +4 dodge, -1 Size)
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+25 
Attack: Claw +21 melee 
Full Attack: 6 claws +21, 1 bite +19
Damage: 2 Primairy claws 1d8 +15, 4 Secondairy claws 1d8 +7, Bite 1d6 +7
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. 
Special Attacks: Improved Grab, Pounce, Rake, Rend, Fear Aura
Special Qualities: Alacrity, DR 30/magic and silver, 120ft Darkvision, immunities, freeze in place, Malice, Regeneration 5, Tremorsense 60ft, SR 26
Saves: Fort: +17, Ref: +15, Will +9
Abilities: Str 41, Dex 30, Con 34, Int 10, Wis 19, Cha 26
Skills: Jump +24, Survival +13, Move Silently +27, Hide +27, Spot +13, Listen +13, Climb +24, Knowledge (Ibon Sul) +9
Feats: Multiattack, Multigrab, Greater Multigrab
Challenge Rating: 20

Yxbudur’zmutkimdu speaks Abyssal and infernal

Yxbudur’zmutkimdu is approximately 8' in height and weighs 400 lbs. 

At the centre of Ibon Sul now lies a huge silent ruin, appearantly devoid of all life where no insects and birds go and even no demon dares to stirr a single stone. In this ruin, the remains of the once greatest of the Elthedar temples to the Old Gods hold its secrets for the outside world. But  those secrets are haunted, haunted by a sleepless Malice, haunted by Yxbudur’zmutkimdu the Terror in the Walls.

The first of the flood of Demons and vile creatures to spill into the world of Aryth through the failing gate of Ibon Sul, Yxbudur’zmutkimdu was the first to spill the blood of the Elthedar on their holiest of grounds and the last to stop painting the ceilings with the blood of the former priesthood. Yxbudur’zmutkimdu is a vile she-demon now trapped by the wards of Ibon Sul and who's body is composed entirely from malice itself. Moments after having shred the last of the Elthedar priesthood to bloody ribbons she along with all the other Demons that had spilled onto Aryth through the gate of Ibon Sul. She found herself trapped by the wards placed on the gate that now were fully active again. Unable to leave Ibon Sul, even unable to even leave the High Temple she turned her malice to the other Demons in the Temple to still her bloodlust. Now thousands of years after having destroyed the last Demon unable to flee the former High Temple or to be as foolish as to enter, she has lost the last remnants of her mind to the never ending whispers of the Whispering wood that have haunted her every step through the High Temple for an eternity. And now lost in her madness and bloodlust she has roamed the walls, ceilings and floors of the High Temple for thousands of years in maddening solitude, ever weary for a living thing to enter her domain.

Alacrity (Su): Yxbudur’zmutkimdu can move with distressing speed and grace. She may make an additional standard action each round, and as long as she is not flat-footed she gains a +4 dodge bonus to her Armor Class.

Improved Grab (Ex): When Yxbudur’zmutkimdu hits with a claw attack she may start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If she succeeds in her grapple she can rend an opponent on her next turn with a successful grapple check. Additionally, if Yxbudur’zmutkimdu wins the grapple check, she establishes a hold and can rake.

Fear Aura (Su): Yxbudur’zmutkimdu continually radiates a 60-foot-radius aura of fear. A creature in the area must succeed on a DC 27 Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell (caster level 6th). A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again for 24 hours. The DC is charisma based.

Pounce (Ex): If Yxbudur’zmutkimdu charges, she can make a full attack even though she has moved.

Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +19 melee, damage 1d8+7.

Regeneration (Ex): Positive or negative energy and sonic deal normal damage to Yxbudur’zmutkimdu. If Yxbudur’zmutkimdu loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 3d6 rounds.

Rend (Ex): Every time Yxbudur’zmutkimdu hits with two of her six claw attacks, she can latch onto her opponent's body and tear the flesh. This attack automatically deals an extra 2d8+14 points of damage. She also can rend with a successful grapple check once it has established a grappling hold. 

Freeze in Place (Su): If Yxbudur’zmutkimdu remains motionless for a full round, she blends into her surroundings and gains a +10 circumstance bonus on all Hide checks.

Immunities (Ex): Yxbudur’zmutkimdu is immune to mind-affecting effects, fire, poison, paralysis, slow, sleep, and magical temporal effects (such as time stop or the aging caused by a ghost).

Skills (Ex): Yxbudur’zmutkimdu gains a +8 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks.

Due to feats Yxbudur’zmutkimdu can grapple with the bodypart she made her attack with at no penalty. So effectively she can grapple six opponents at no pentalty. Yxbudur’zmutkimdu has an effective grapple bonus of +25.

Tactics: Yxbudur’zmutkimdu revels in combat and senseless bloodshed. It has been hundreds of years since the last time a living thing entered the ruin she now resides in. Still she craves for the chance to taste fresh blood again, for she tires of ripping her own flesh to still her bloodlust. 

When engaging in combat she now prefers to first stalk her prey from the walls, scaring them and using her fear aura, driving them deeper into the ruins in their maddness and fear to their doom. After revelling and feeding on the fear of her prey she leaps from the walls, grapples her target and pulls it with her into the walls of the Temple. She takes her prey somewhere confined where she leaves it for later, returning to capture the rest of the intruders... Afterwards she returns to her prey to toy with them, torturing them to no end. For prey is scarce for Yxbudur’zmutkimdu and when the oppertunity manifests itself, she will make sure to feast upon  every drop of blood she can splatter the walls with.

Death of Yxbudur’zmutkimdu: The Elthedar and Elven spirits that haunt Yxbudur’zmutkimdu seek to deprave her of every bit of rest and peace of mind for all eternity as punishment for what she did. But this hate and vengefull attitude by the spirits of the Aruun might be the undoing of them all. Because when Yxbudur’zmutkimdu's essense is released from her corporal form it's malice will flood the ruins of Ibon Sul and send a wave of hate through the Whispering Wood. Creatures caught within the wave of hate as it spreads through the ruins of Ibon Sul or communing with the Whispering Wood at the time of Yxbudur’zmutkimdu's demize must succeed at Will save DC 27or immediately succumb to uncontrollable impulses to do violence to any and all persons or creatures whom they contact. They will actively seek out all living creatures whilst under the effects of the wave of hate in an effort to harm them - attempting to kill them, usually in cruel and brutal fashion. Random violence will be directed against animals, plants and objects, in that order, when no sentient creatures are present. Whilst the wave itself does not persist, this psychotic condition lasts for the full 20 hours, after which it abruptly ends. If this comes to pass without first having severed the link between Yxbudur’zmutkimdu and the Whispering Wood the consequences of this disaster would be beyond any imagination save that of Izrador himself. For the fate of all the Elves and the Erethor is sealed if Aradil herself succumbs to her inner malice and hatred.


Posessions:

Oridron's Rag:
This cloak was once the proud posession of Oridron, Elthedar High Priest of Ibon Sul. Oridron had learned in deep meditation only moments before the Sundering of the approaching doom and the fate that the gate would spell for Ibon Sul. He made his way as quickly as possible to the Gate summoning as many priests to him as he could on the way. But when he arrived it was already too late. The Sundering had come to pass, Izrador had fallen and for a moment the protective wards on the gate at the center of the Temple complex failed. And so Oridron beheld the first of the demons to spill into the sacred High Temple of the Elthedar. Six huge claws grasped the edges of the frames of the planar rift and before him Yxbudur’zmutkimdu pulled herself through and onto the material plane. His mind reeling from the disconnection with his god and immensely weakend and near powerless now the divine favor of their gods had left him, Oridron's intestines joined the splattered guts of his fellow priests on the walls and ceilings as Yxbudur’zmutkimdu revelled in the massacre.

Yxbudur’zmutkimdu sensed the magic emenating from the blood and gut stained piece of cloth and quickly took it as her own as she whiped two smaller demons of the corpse of the disemboweled priest. Now thousands of years later, still sustained by its magic but hardly more that a dirty bloodstained and stinking rag addorning the back of Yxbudur’zmutkimdu it still confers its powers onto its wearer.

Oridron's Rag confers the following benefits onto its wearer:
Blur (Su): The wearer of Oridron's Rag is constantly under the influence of a displacement effect, and as a result gains the benefits of concealment (50% miss chance).
Wall Meld: Oridron's Rag bestows the power onto its wearer to meld into worked stone walls, ceilings and floors at will as a part of a move action. This power doesn't function on walls, ceilings and floors made of natural or unworked stone. In this state the wearer is invisible to blindsight, trueseeing and any other form of magical detection. The wearer of Oridron's Rag can reappear as a free action. 
Wall Flow: Oridron used his cloack to travel almost instantly from one place to another in his temple. Once melded into a wall, the wearer of Oridron's Rag can move through the walls at  a speed of 240ft as a move action or 1000ft as a fullround action in any direction. This power only lets the wearer travel through worked stone walls, ceilings or floors. 

=====================


Zunevkram[3.5] 
Huge Outsider [Demon] (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Fire, Air, Evil) 
Hit Dice: 24d8 + 96 (204 hp) 
Initiative: +15 (+4 Improved Initiative, +11 dex) 
Speed: Fly 90 ft. (good) 
Armor Class: 27 (-2 size, +8 natural, +11 dex), touch 19, flat-footed 16 
Base Attack/Grapple: +24/+38 
Attack: Claw +35 melee (2d4+9) 
Full Attack: Claws +35/+31/+27/+23 melee (2d4+9) 
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft. 
Special Attacks: Smoke claws, Choke, Burn
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 15/magic, elemental traits, immunity to fire and electricity , Prescience, Breathsense, Lost
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +10, Will +7 
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 33, Con 18, Int 26, Wis 21, Cha 17 
Skills: Bluff +30, Concentration +31, Diplomacy +30, Gather Information +30, Hide +38, Intimidate +30, Knowledge (Arcana) +35, Knowledge (Caraheen) +35, Knowledge (History) +35, Knowledge (Northlands) +35, Knowledge (the planes) +35, Knowledge (Veradeen) +35, Listen +32, Move Silently +38, Sense Motive +32, Spot +32
Feats: Combat reflexes, Dodge, Flyby attack, Greater Spell Focus (Divination), Improved Critical (claw), Improved Initiative, Mobility, Spell Focus (Divination), Weapon Finesse       
Challenge Rating: 12

Zunevkram speaks Auran and Ignan. 

Zunevkram is approximately 40 ft. in height and weighs 12 lbs. 

Burn (Ex): Any creature that is hit by Zunevkram's claw attack or occupies the same space as Zunevkram (or that hits Zunevkram with a natural weapon or with an unarmed attack) must succeed at a Reflex save (DC 21) or catch fire (see Catching on Fire in Chapter 3 of the Dungeon Master's Guide). The fire burns for 1d4 rounds.

Breathsense (Ex): Zunevkram can automatically sense the location of any breathing creature within 60 feet.

Choke (Ex): Smoke fills the air around Zunevkram and any creature that comes within 30 feet of her risks breathing heavy smoke (see Smoke Inhalation in Chapter 3 of the Dungeon Master's Guide, except that a creature that chokes for two rounds takes 1 temporary constitution damage isntead of 1d6 subdual damage).

Elemental traits (Ex): Zunevkram is Immune to poison, sleep paralysis and stunning. Zunevkram is not subject to critical hits or flanking, and she cannot be raised or ressurrected. Zunevkram also has darkvision (60 ft. range).

Fire subtype (Ex): Fire immunity; double damage from cold exept on a succesfull save.

Lost (Ex): The most likely reason that almost noone has ever heard of Zunevkram is that because her powers are so intwined with prophecy and divination that she herself is immune to them. The real reason she is isn't subject to their effects however is that she isn't who she was anymore. Both sisters souls are lost, but to where noone knows. Zunevkram is not a combination of her former selves, she lost their true essence along the way. Now she is nothing, lost to any who care to look. Zunevkram cannot be the target of any divination or revealing spell or appear in one. (Like scrying, divination, true seeing, locate creature, vision ect.)

Prescience (Su): At will and as a free action, Zunevkram can duplicate the effect of  any of the following divination spells: analyse dweomer, augury, clairaudiance/clairvoyance, contact other plane, detect thoughts, discern location, divination, find the path, foresight, greater scrying, legend lore, locate creature, locate object, tongues, trueseeing, vision. Caster level 24th; save DC 22 + spell level.

Skills (Ex): Zunevkram gains a +10 circumstance bonus to hide checks made while in or around large fires.

Smoke Claws (Ex): Zunevkram can engulf opponents by moving on top of them. This fills the air around one opponent smaller than it is without provoking an attack of oppertunity. The target must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 29) or inhale part of Zunevkram. Smoke inside the victim solidifies into a claw or talon and begins to rip at the surrounding organs dealing double Zunevkram's claw damage automatically and an additional 2d4 points of fire damage. The affected creature can attempt another Fortitude save each subsequent round to cough out the semivaporous menace.


===============

Last one I never finished really with descriptive text and all since they talked their way out of that one


----------



## The Forsaken One

As for a theme of the 3rd group... something really different would be nice.. euhmz.. like a group whos theme consists of Fallen Celestials of previously good outsiders.

Or maybe the 3rd group consists of GOOD devils... or Chaotic ones. Those things are perhaps a bit cliche but they could prove surprising for the players, most definately when they expect enemies but one group could be their most valuable allies... but still they would remain devils who have their own special way of help and obligations flowing from that.... Which could lead to further indepth adventuring and plot.


----------



## Henry

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Let's assume that we have three cabals of devils working at cross purposes to one another. One group has a general "shapeshifter/malleable flesh" theme going for them, one is oriented towards flies, and I have no theme for the third group. I'd love it if people could offer thematic suggestions, detail the types of devils or creatures that might be in a cabal, and/or give some thought to the nobles of Hell who might be sponsoring them.
> 
> Thanks! Is that enough information?




The shapers? Have you considered any of Monte's Chaositech stuff? I don't have it, but if you do, I've heard there is some very interesting material in there for "bodily adaptations."


The Flies? I would make a devil with VERY similar stats to a chasme, first of all. Having an extraplanar cabal for a group of epic-levels and NOT having chasme is a crime against Gygax.  Other lackeys could include Ruin Swarms from Epic Handbook - perhaps one of the devils is actually an intelligent Ruin Swarm colony?

Theme for the third group - My first thought is to make them VERY different from the flesh-shapers and the flies/maggot-types; and the farthest I can think of while still being repulsive is a group of devils based on Atropals - those little aborted godlings. VERY disturbing, but perhaps TOO disturbing, a whole group of devils based on evil creatures killed before they were even born? Other thoughts are to go insectile, but that clashes too much with the fly-themed ones, or perhaps...

...perhaps a group of Taditional, Titivilus-inspired devils? The "Old nobility"? The traditional devils who really detest these crudely depraved upstarts, and are more into the "refined, genteel depravity" that Asmodeus used to represent?


----------



## Pielorinho

Wow, *Forsaken*--those are wonderful!
Daniel


----------



## linnorm

Suggestions for the third type:


Ooze/Slime/Mold type creatures.  An intelligent green slime would be fun, so would an intelligent gelatinous cube.
Incorporeal devils.  Something insubstantial and amorphous is always fun to throw at characters.
Fiendish undead.  This might be too much of a good thing considering the DoD's recent activities.


----------



## Ashy

Henry said:
			
		

> Theme for the third group - My first thought is to make them VERY different from the flesh-shapers and the flies/maggot-types; and the farthest I can think of while still being repulsive is a group of devils based on Atropals - those little aborted godlings. VERY disturbing, but perhaps TOO disturbing, a whole group of devils based on evil creatures killed before they were even born? Other thoughts are to go insectile, but that clashes too much with the fly-themed ones, or perhaps...




THAT idea ROCKS!  Combine these lil' nasties with a fair helping of chain-bound kytons/other chained devil ideas and inspirations from the Hellraiser movies as bodyguards/servants and you've got insured spine-tingling action!


----------



## Knight Otu

Some nice demons there, TFO! 

 As for devils... the only thing I can offer is Ishmadiel (3.0 stats), using my planar ruler template. While I posted a revised template, I haven't posted the updated rulers, but I should have updated stats for Ishmadiel somewhere...

 Of course, Ishmadiel seems as if he had to be behind/part the third group, giving those likely a fire or steel theme. Certainly makes him harder to fit in.


----------



## Someone

If your players read Seplchrave´s story hour this could come up cliched, but the third group could be the old corruption-sadomaso-pain/pleasure type; like Slaanesh in Warhammer if you know something about the setting.


----------



## The Amazing Dingo

Oooo...Ivory King Stats...nice...

Any chance on seeing what Sobel is packing now?   I know the old dragon's stats are back there, but I'm wondering if you might have added anything else to him other then the Ghoul Template.

As for the devils...

You have a group of shapechangers that I assume will be secretive.  What about a group of demons that possess?  There was a nice PrC in the Fiend Folio capable of such and could definately get through several usual magical detection methods.  I'm sure the shapechangers will be going about things secretively as would the possessers.  Could confuse the group into thinking that both groups were one group (while being confused that they seemed to be working towards two different goals).  After a while it would become evident, but it could be fun for a while.


----------



## MTR

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Let's assume that we have three cabals of devils working at cross purposes to one another. One group has a general "shapeshifter/malleable flesh" theme going for them, one is oriented towards flies, and I have no theme for the third group. I'd love it if people could offer thematic suggestions, detail the types of devils or creatures that might be in a cabal, and/or give some thought to the nobles of Hell who might be sponsoring them.




Perhaps this is tied to a certain marrage contract?

So you've got one group that will be sneaky and another that will be revolting; the third group should contrast.  You could go with militaristic and organized - fighting in formation, coordinated spells, specific devils assigned particular tasks, commanders who give orders (and have them followed), opponents who are identified by military rank rather than racial type or personal name.

I also rather like the fallen celestial idea, so long as it fits your world.  The painful beauty of an evil solar....


----------



## DrZombie

_Tiiiiiiiiime is on my side...._
I'll be buggered if I can remember the name of the movie , 's with Denzel Washington as the major good guy. He's trying to destroy Azazel. The trick is that Azazel can jump from body to body, taking over mortals without effort. Lemme google-fu for a second..... Yep, found it :"Fallen".
If you haven't seen it, check it out.
Anyway, when Azazel knows he's found out, he starts taunting DW. In the police station someone starts to sing "time is on my side", andbumps into someone, who then continues the song, and so on, completely freaking out the main character.
That would be a tough nut to crack. One or two devils like that, taking over people who don't realise they've been taken over. It's gonna be a while untill they find out what's going on, and how to stop it? 

On the other hand, that might be a bit too close to the shapechanging theme I guess. Anyway, go see the movie. If you haven't allready.

I'll try to think of something else.

How "mature" is the group. I mean, we all know they're adults, and they're used to some pretty gory stufff, but there's a difference between gory and sick. I mean sick sick


----------



## Piratecat

DrZombie said:
			
		

> On the other hand, that might be a bit too close to the shapechanging theme I guess. Anyway, go see the movie. If you haven't allready.




It's too close to a bad guy from Sagiro's campaign, unfortunately. 

Good ideas here. I'm torn between the ooze-types - can oozes be lawful? - and the militaristic ones. I'm also considering a "celestial" faction that is, in fact, a front for a fallen angel.


----------



## Zaruthustran

Piratecat said:
			
		

> It's too close to a bad guy from Sagiro's campaign, unfortunately.
> 
> Good ideas here. I'm torn between the ooze-types - can oozes be lawful? - and the militaristic ones. I'm also considering a "celestial" faction that is, in fact, a front for a fallen angel.




I like the idea of a "celestial" faction. You've got physical corruption covered by flies and shapechangers (I'd include oozes with shapechangers). Now you need moral corruption, so: liars.

Love the idea of the third faction posing as good guys. It'd be best it they've manipulated a group of actual, real Good celestials into acting on their behalf. Maybe this small and naive group could think that they're undercover, tricking the Devils. It's fun because the PCs may be suspicious at first, and put the initial contacts of the third group through a battery of tests and divinations--which will reveal the truth: they're capital-g-Good. Once tested, the PCs won't bother to test the later representatives of the third group...

Some fun powers of the third group would be Zone of Falsehood (only lies may be told in 60' radius), or Invert Magic (Inflicts become Cures, Fireballs deal cold damage, Haste becomes Slow, etc.), or Pain of Truth (telling truths = damage), or Deny Truth (deny/suppress one fundamental class ability of an opponent). 

That last ability could take away a Paladin's immunity to fear, or a Fighter's feats, or sneak attack damage, or rage, or a mage's familiar. Stuff that is fundamental to a character, that would jeopardize the character's *essence*--would call into question the truth of that character. Don't take away mechanical stuff like spellcasting ability or BAB progression, but rather the flavor characteristics that gives the class definition.

These liars would also be big on illusions. Illusions are good for high level parties because there's no save until they're interacted with. So, you'll draw lots of spells and attacks. For extra fun mix illusions, shadow conjurations, and real opponents into the same battle.

The liars could also make good use of charms and memory wipes to completely alter the truths of the character's relations. Enemies become friends, friends become enemies, memories become unreliable. Mind-bending fun.

The neat thing about fighting these guys is that their lackeys and servants are all Good dupes who truly believe that the bad guys are good guys, and that the DoD are deluded heroes unwittingly acting as agents of evil. In time, the players may question their own motives.

That's when you hint that the third group *really is* a deep undercover Celestial force, manipulating devils into manipulating celestials in order to earn enough trust that a massive invasion may occur. 

-z


----------



## Lord Pendragon

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I'm also considering a "celestial" faction...



This is what I was going to suggest, because a group of fallen angels would make for an interesting counterpoint in philosophy.  The fallen angels would represent the way in which "the ends justify the means" can lead to evil.  Ruled by an ex-Solar who is determined to take control of Creation and fashion the ultimate paradise...at any cost.

It would also allow you to play with all the good celestials and celestial creatures in the monster manual...as villains.


----------



## Droid101

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> This is what I was going to suggest, because a group of fallen angels would make for an interesting counterpoint in philosophy.  The fallen angels would represent the way in which "the ends justify the means" can lead to evil.  Ruled by an ex-Solar who is determined to take control of Creation and fashion the ultimate paradise...at any cost.
> 
> It would also allow you to play with all the good celestials and celestial creatures in the monster manual...as villains.



I did something like this in my campaign; a rogue group of celestials that just go too far for anyone "dealing" with devils.  They would try to slaughter anyone caught speaking with anything devilish.  Gave my PCs quite a scare.


----------



## Lela

I really like Zaruthustran's idea. I'd start mixing in known threats to give it a little definition. That would seem to be something Titivilious would be involved in, perhaps he originally tempted that fallen solar (who brought buddies down with him). Then again, he could _be_ the infernal solar in question.

 Regardless, the Good Celestials, may encountered while fighting either the flies or insect groups (perhaps both). This would be something they do often, considering it their mission in life to overcome these agents of Pestilence and Famine(?) before they can spread across the Prime, helping to bring about Armageddon. They believe in two ideals:




As Zaruthustran, they believe themselves to be the epitomy of Goodness and see their master(s) as the source of such radiance. But they're fanatical about it. They won't question their belief system, ever, despite what it may ask of them. On the far side of the Law/Chaos axes, they stick to their own personal cursade in life. They don't get involved in other's battles, even at no risk to themselves. The young woman being dragged into an ally, the politics of this or that city, or the rise of an undead legion are simply not their concern, regardless of the personal risk (or lack there-of) involved.
Death has already arrived on the Prime. There's no use fighting against it. Such a fight would only bring about more Death. As such, fighting Famine and Pestilance will have to serve to hold back the end of time. The same with War.
Behind it all, of course, are the Liars. Those Courtiers of Perdition, raised up by Asmodious Himself, for the sole purpose of taking control of the Prime. This group, while always waring with itself to some extent, holds great sway over the other three, who unknowingly follow the Liars' plans.

 Each miner group believes they have a grand destiny, handed to them by Fate itself. Indeed, they do, though Fate has little to do with it. It's merely not the destiny they envision. The Lords of the Nine seek to send the Flies and Insects across the Prime, bringing War and Death to all the great nations and churchs. It's their goal not to scour the Prime, but to weaken it enough to allow for a true invasion from the Nine Hells.

 Thus the involvment of the third group; those who think themselves saviours. It's their role to act as a counter to Famine and Pesilance, keeping them gaining enough strength to truely crush the mortal realm. In addition, when such a War finally takes place, the Celestial group will appear to be handling the situation. Thus, the Lords hope, the Upper Planes will not see it necisary to get directly involved.

 Naturally, such a balance isn't easy to maintain. There are constantly necessary adjustments being made to all sides. A tip-off to one group, a trap set off on another, or, rarely, wiping out an entire base/hive/colony.

 The Liars, of course, never want to reveal themselves. Instead they tend to act through intermediaries.  Unwitting intermediaries with a penchent for meddling, a reputation for success, and a willingness to move on after they think they've succeeded.

 Thus, the Defenders of Daybreak are a perfect choice.


----------



## DrZombie

Another thought (hey, you didn't limit us to one each  ), maybe a bit harder to work out : the evil of lawfullness. Strict adherance to the rules and laws. All of 'em. Will be very hard on the palladins.
Example : Anyone caught thieving will lose the thieving hand. Very common. But what if a hungry 3-year old steals a loaf of bread and gets caught. According to the law, the kiddie will lose his hand....
This could be a ploy of a group of devils, working behind the scenes, and slowly twisting the laws, making 'em more and more oppressive. This could lead to extremes. And there will be a lot of people who display the most vile of all evils : apathie. They won't care. It's not them loosing the hand. They will use more and more excuses to look the other way. Good people, common people, supporting the system by not caring. The jailor of the three year old, knowing what will happen, will go home after his shift, kiss his wife and play with his children in the evening sun. He doesn't consider himself evil. He goes to mass every godsday. He might even consider what happens to the child a punishment from God, because if God didn't want this child punished, he wouldn't have allowed the child to go hungry in the first place. Or the child could belong to some minority group, and evryone knows they can't be trusted. The kid would probably grow up to be a thief and a rapist. He's keeping the future of _his_ children safe by jailing the little sod.

This might not be a very comfortable theme though, depends on your group. Hey, and as a bonus, you don't even need the devils to instigate all this. It's happening evrywhere all by itself  .

Or is this not the droid you're looking for?


----------



## Paxr0mana

Wow, those are some good ideas for the "Celestial" group.

I'm always partial to standard devils. (i.e. horns and hooves, soul merchants.) If so, you could have a plot to buy the souls of many people of power (haven't they already done it?), and then, when the time to collect come about, also send an invading army to snatch up lands and power from vacant thrones.


----------



## weiknarf

For the fly group, hows about a devil with the Worm that Walks templates.  A Pit Fiend comprised of maggots.  Devilicious.


I picked up the new Dragon today and flipping through it gave me a thought, which is a first.  There is an outsider subtype called the Quori which is an outsider native to the Realm of Dreams.  It has telepathy and can invade dreams and possess people.  One of the factions could be these.  Maybe the Celestial faction relocated to the Realm of Dreams or somesuch.


----------



## Piratecat

That's it. I'm letting you guys do all my design for me from now on.  

I'll muse on these over the weekend. Some fantastic ideas here, especially because the celestial faction had been the one I was really choking on.


----------



## Tortoise

Here's another little something to add to your weekend of musings PC ...

Think parchment, scrolls, books, writings, sacred and profane texts, etc. The third faction could be heavily into collecting, understanding, and using the written word.

You could even have one assume a form or create a golem of parchment, armored by leather bindings, etc, for visual effect. The spells scribed upon the works it is composed of could activate like glyphs when struck, and it could use some of the writings within itself to perform functions and effects.

Imagine the reaction knowledge hounds would have to fighting or even just having to deal with unholy librarians when every action could harm or grant knowledge.


----------



## coyote6

DrZombie said:
			
		

> Another thought (hey, you didn't limit us to one each  ), maybe a bit harder to work out : the evil of lawfullness. Strict adherance to the rules and laws. All of 'em.




These would be perfect fallen celestials; the only thing is that it's a little similar to whatshername, the demigod that the Ivory King ate. 

But, hey, you could use all those lawful outsiders as bad guys -- fiendish inevitables, legions of damned formians, and -- of course -- corrupted modrons. All led by a few fallen archons and/or angels.

If this is in relation to Agar's betrothement, a cabal of absolute law would be perfect foils for a guy that likes the squamous & the tentacular as much as the alienist does. Those pseudonaturals are just so . . . disorderly.

Hey, maybe these guys were allies of the dearly departed demisgoddess.


----------



## Piratecat

Tortoise said:
			
		

> Imagine the reaction knowledge hounds would have to fighting or even just having to deal with unholy librarians when every action could harm or grant knowledge.




Yoink!

Hey Bob, didn't you hear? I killed all the modrons.


----------



## Graywolf-ELM

“Good job, but we still need more support,” decides Agar. Throwing his mind out into the far reaches of the earth, he calls an elder earth elemental to him. Channelling it through a tiny section of the far realms is simplicity itself for the alienist, and the elemental arrives with earthen tentacles squirming."


Just another suggestion to consider.  A faction from or tainted by the Far Realms, trying to make a foothold into This realm.

GW


----------



## MavrickWeirdo

You asked for brainstorming for your 3rd group of demons, this may come out more theoretical than pratical

Shapeshifters represent change, so what is the opposit of change?

Stasis

Their theme would be to oppose change or "maintain balance"

They move slowly (they prefer not to move, but if it will prevent major changes then it would be worth moving). In fact they would act as if under the effect of a _iron body_ spell at all times. This would give them major damage reduction (damage would be a change). In addition depending on how powerful the individual "stasis demon" is, they can use as a touch attack _sleep, slow, otiluke's resilient sphere, hold, stone to flesh, power word - stun,_ or _temporal statis_.


----------



## The Forsaken One

Someone posted these earlier on in this RogueGal thread but just to remind you that they are here if you're taking the much suggested fallen celestial path.


Desolation Angel
Medium-size Outsider (Evil)
HD: 12d8+24 (78)
Initiative: +5 (Dex, Improved Initiative)
Speed: 30’, fly 60’ (average)
AC: 21 (+10 natural, +1 Dex)
Attacks: +2 ranseur +17/+12
Damage: +2 ranseur 2d4+6
Face/Reach: 5’x5’/ 5’ (10’ with ranseur)
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, Negative Energy Beam +13 ranged touch, Desolation Field
Special Qualities: DR 20/+2, SR 21, Immunities, Fire, cold, and electricity resistance 10, Telepathy
Saves- F: +10 R: +9 W: +10
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 16,
Skills: Concentration +17, Knowledge (any 2) +17, Listen +17, Spot +17, Move Silently +16, Hide +12
Feats: Fly-by Attack, Weapon Focus (ranseur), Improved Initiative, Ability Focus (Desolation Aura)
Clime: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary
CR: 10 (?)
Treasure: No coins; double goods, double items
Align: Neutral Evil
Adv. Range: 13-24 HD (medium-size)

Desolation angels are beings of pure destruction. Their very presence withers their surroundings. Used as assassins, guardians, and sometimes even deadly shock troops, these beings are almost always in the employ of a powerful outsider. They are not particularly cruel or sadistic, but they have no real conscience. They were born to kill, and that’s what they do.
Desolation angels are always beautiful females with chalky-gray skin and jet-black hair. They have large feathery wings the color of cooling lava. Desolation angels favor flowing black, gray or blood red robes that do nothing to hide their figure. Their clothing is often adorned with vulture or crow motifs, and some enjoy wearing expensive jewelry. All carry magical ranseurs the color of dried blood.

Combat 
Desolation angels favor surprise attack, sweeping down to strike from above. They use fly-by attack, negative energy, and spell-like abilities at first, keeping to cover and avoiding melee. When all their abilities are exhausted, they close for melee, allowing the desolation field to winnow away at their enemies.
Spell-like Abilities: At will- detect good and detect magic; 1/day- magic circle against good, unholy blight, and summon monster IV.
Negative Energy Beam (Su): Once every 1d6 rounds, a desolation angel can unleash a burst of negative energy. This counts as a ranged touch attack, with a maximum range of 20’ and no range increments. If the target is struck, he suffers one negative level. The DC to remove the level is 17. This is an energy drain attack.
Desolation Field (Su): At the beginning of a desolation angel’s action, all creatures within 10’ of the angel are affected as if struck by an inflict serious wounds spell. All those affected take 3d8+12 negative energy damage, and may make a Will save for half (DC: 19). 
Immunities (Ex): Desolation angels are immune to all negative energy effects. 
Telepathy (Su): Desolation angels can communicate telepathically with all creatures within 100’ that have a language.



I'm using these myself inclusing some with class levels. Some aditional charisma to boost the Inflict aura DC... it does wonders 


Btw if you want to be really really nasty.... I've got a player in my game who's playing a fallen astral Deva, whom I gave DR 5/good since Savage Species didnt update to 3.5... I changed it to DR 5/magic and at level 14 he gets dr 10/ magic and good but what the hell...

But my point is, I changed the DR /evil from Devas to /good for flavor and balance. If you have fallen Celestials there really is no real reason why they shouldn't still have their /evil DR.... So if you have a good alligned party as you do, they will have some problems facing DR 20/Magic and Evil damage reduction.... Paladins and good clerics weaving Evil weapons around isnt the first thing that comes to mind


----------



## Spatzimaus

I'd say go with something a bit different.  When most people are confronted with Fiends, it's always about the ooze, or spiky bits, or tentacles, or in general something icky.

So, since IMO information is the most dangerous commodity, my suggestion is the Inquisition.  Psionic Truth Seeker fiends.  (Truth Seeker was a psionic PrC from the Mind's Eye with its own power list, sort of Paladin-like in many ways)  Basically, they're psions who specialize in reading minds, detecting lies, and so on.  Many of these have combat uses, too.
While other factions might handle the actual infiltration through shapeshifting, these guys use magic to extract all sorts of information out of enemies, often without anyone knowing.  Or, they could use their skills on innocents on other planes to give their side a strategic advantage.  To add the fiendish aspect, give them skill in things like torture.

Don't know how well it'd work in practice, but it's a thought.


----------



## DrZombie

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> So, since IMO information is the most dangerous commodity, my suggestion is the Inquisition.



Noooh, not the fluffy pillow, have mercy. Aaaaaaarghh, the comfy chair, you fiend.

Name the series : 



Spoiler



Monty Python, who else?


 
Sorry, just couldn't help myself. Works with the lawfull idea really. You can also link it with the fallen celestials. Nothing as bad as a witch hunt. Let the inquisition be the "good guys", protecting the innocents from fiends by rooting them out. Offcourse you can't make an omelet without breaking eggs, but it's for the beter good. Really. trust me.


----------



## Sandain

I had a mental image about flies.  Trillions of them.  Imagine the typical cinderella spired fantasy castle.  (maybe use castle ravenloft floor plan) Now imagine its all made of flies. people have to wade through flies, squeeze though thinner curtains of flies, and listen to the constant sounds of a trillion fly wings as they explore the castle.

What holds the flies in shape? 1000 millenia of collected rotting and regenerating corpses.  The flies wings may tell countless secrets that the devils can understand - like a living library.

Custodians of this citadel of flies may be 'flies who fly' (worms who walk)

The castle may be mounted on the back of those super huge bugs from the ELH (devastation flies?) so the castle is portable.  May even plane shiftable.

The following villain is inspired from a true story (the girl was the sole survivor of a plane crash in the amazon jungle)

The Lord of the Flies (sorry couldn't resist the reference) may look like a fly blown 10 year old human girl.  Gaunt, maggot infested, gibbering - but still alive.  She sits calmly in a chair of flies and constantly trys to cut out maggots from her flesh with an innocent looking seashell ring.  The true ruler of this faction may be the ring itself - a truely evil artifact.

We can use traditional devils and creatures and create a fly blown template perhaps.

Let me know if these ideas are of interest and i can stat things out for you.


----------



## Sandain

Estrella is based on Blackdirge's Pyrak.

Estrella, Lady of the Flies

Huge Outsider
Hit Dice: 24d8+312 plus 288 (936 hp)
Initiative: +9 (Dex)
Speed: 90 ft., Fly 150 ft. (good)
AC: 54 (-2 size, +9 Dex, +23 natural, +12 insight, +12 luck)
Attacks: 2 claws +58 melee, bite +54 melee, 2 rakes +54 melee or Affliction +66/+66/+61/+56/+51 melee and bite +54 melee
Damage: Affliction 4d6+55 plus 3d6 disease, claws 2d6+36, bite 1d8+28, rake 1d6+28
Face/Reach: 10 ft. by 10 ft. /15 ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, disease, summon devil
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 20/+6, SR 39, devil qualities, fast healing 20
Saves: Fortitude +37, Reflex +33, Will +33
Abilities: Str 42, Dex 28, Con 36, Int 29, Wis 29, Cha 27
Skills: Bluff +28, Climb +36, Concentration +50, Diplomacy +28, Hide +46, Intimidate +28, Jump +36, Knowledge (the planes) +29, Knowledge (arcana) +46, Listen +54, Move Silently +46, Search +46, Sense Motive +46, Spellcraft +46, Spot +54, Tumble +29, Wilderness Lore +29
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (heavy lance), Expertise, Improved Disarm, Sunder, Multiattack, Great Cleave, Improved Flight, Fly by Attack, Greater Fly by Attack
Climate/Terrain: The Citadel of Flies
Organization: Unique
Challenge Rating: 29
Treasure: Quadruple standard
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Possessions: Affliction +7, keen, wounding, vorpal, unholy, speed, gargantuan, disease blast, heavy lance 

Special Attacks: 
Spell-Like Abilities: At will-animate any object, blasphemy, charm monster (no save if insect less than huge size or a Fly-Blown creature), creeping doom, desecrate, detect good, detect magic, dispel magic, fireball, hold monster, improved invisibility, magic circle against good, major image, produce flame, polymorph self, pyrotechnics, suggestion, teleport without error (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), unholy aura, unhallow, and wall of fire; 1/day-meteor swarm (any) and symbol (any). These abilities are as the spells cast by a 17th-level sorcerer (save DC 13 + spell level).
Once per year a pit fiend can use wish as the spell cast by a 20th-level sorcerer, and wake her devastation fly and command it for 1 hour/per hit dice.
Fear Aura (Su): As a free action, Estrella can create an aura of fear in a 20-foot radius. It is otherwise identical with fear cast by a 15th-level sorcerer (save DC 19). If the save is successful, that creature cannot be affected again by that Estrella's fear aura for one day. Other devils are immune to the aura.
Poison (Ex): Bite, Fortitude save (DC 28); initial damage 1d6 temporary Constitution, secondary damage death.
Disease (Su): Even if an affected creature saves against the poison, it must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 28) or be infected with a vile disease called maggot infestation (incubation period immediate, damage 1d4 points of temporary Strength per day).
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the pit fiend must hit a Medium-size or smaller opponent with its tail slap attack. If it gets a hold, it can constrict.
Constrict (Ex): Estrella deals 2d4+10 points of damage with a successful grapple check.
Summon Devil (Sp): Twice per day Estrella can automatically summon four lemures, osyluths, or barbazu, or two erinyes, cornugon, gelugon or pit fiends. 

Special Qualities: Regeneration (Ex): Estrella takes normal damage from holy and blessed weapons of at least +6 enchantment.
Immunities (Ex): Estrella is immune to fire and poison.
Resistances (Ex): Estrella has cold and acid resistance 20.
See in Darkness (Su): Estrella can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by deeper darkness spells.
Telepathy (Su): Estrella can communicate telepathically with any creature within 100 feet that has a language. 

Affliction: Estrella is never far from her gruesome weapon; a powerfully enchanted jagged bone shard from Imbardarla.  Is still has remnants of rotting flesh on it, and is infused with maggots.  Any hit unleashes a spray of maggots that does extra damage.  On any Vorpal hit the victim is not beheaded, but immediately afflicted with the Fly-Blown template and immediately falls under Estrella's control.


----------



## Elric

One idea for an evil celestial faction would be celestials who have decided that all creatures are prone to evil and, as such, need to be controlled (from behind the scenes) by a greater force for their own good.  This might have some trouble squaring with typical D&D assumptions, which seem to be that there are certain creatures prone to good and others to evil.  If you can work “magic, mystery and authority” into it, I’ll be happy.  

This is similar to Lord Pendragon’s suggestion, but a little different.  Where he suggests that the celestials should attempt to control creation to fashion it into paradise, my vision of the celestials is that they have given up on paradise and wish to make inertia (not sure if that’s the right word for what I mean) the highest ideal possible.   

I have an image that I’ve probably stolen from somewhere of a solar weeping tears of blood as he decides that paradise cannot be achieved.  If Agar is still around, Vision Cascade lets you put in almost any scene you want.  Keep up the great work!


----------



## The Amazing Dingo

Sandain said:
			
		

> The following villain is inspired from a true story (the girl was the sole survivor of a plane crash in the amazon jungle)
> 
> The Lord of the Flies (sorry couldn't resist the reference) may look like a fly blown 10 year old human girl.  Gaunt, maggot infested, gibbering - but still alive.  She sits calmly in a chair of flies and constantly trys to cut out maggots from her flesh with an innocent looking seashell ring.  The true ruler of this faction may be the ring itself - a truely evil artifact.




*shivers at the image*

Wow Sandain...freaky.  I like it a lot.  I don't think the heroes have seen an evil intelligent artifact in quite a while or am I mistaken?  

Heck, I miss TMOSAT...wonder if this ring (should it ever be) could hold up to him?

And one other little idea of flavoring might be that when the ring does "take control" of the girl, it doesn't actually take control of the girl so much as it takes control of the maggots in the girl.  Not sure if maggots actually make sounds, but perhaps they communicate to the flies and other demons through smell or such.


----------



## Lela

I've never heard a maggot.  But anyone can smell them.  And there are few who like it.

 I recall an encounter I had with food winding up in the vacuum (an 8 y/o sibling trying to clean up).  Though we soaked the hose itself in bleech for a day the smell was as potent as ever.  Had to get a new vacuum.

 Perhaps the addition of a stench ability might be appropriate?


----------



## Sandain

Exactly, Estrella (or the artifact) can control insects, which include maggots and also ANY creature that has (the yet to be created) Fly-Blown template.

I am thinking that these creatures have free will until they do something the maggots or Estrella dont like.  then they start wiggling and chewing the hosts brain and slithering into thier muscles to control movement.

My idea is that these hosts do there best to follow orders so this doesnt happen.  

For P-kittys game I am thinking that these special flies and maggots are ones that ate Imbradarla's corpse and have an evil minute spark of divinity - which nicely explains away their swarm intelligence and this template.

Estrella may a Paragon, Worm who walks (maggots), fiend rather than my modified Pit Fiend.


----------



## The Forsaken One

Btw, a lance can't be Vorpal since it's keen not slashing  The 2nd ed term for it was Puncturing I believe, other then that, no 3rd edition variant of it exists. Allthough there is for bludgeoning so why not for piercing 

Btw I'll try to have one of my main NPC's up today or tomorrow. She could make an addition to the celestial faction.


----------



## Plane Sailing

Although it might be too obvious, you could always steal the principle from I, Robot the movie spoiler: 



Spoiler



The celestial group are so concerned for the greater good that they are fully prepared to harm individuals in order that the greater good can be brought to pass. This isn't far away from what some others have already suggested, but the fact that it was the crux of a recent film might make it seem cheesy. Basically the ends justify the means gone mad



Cheers


----------



## Piratecat

Annoyingly enough, Sagiro just featured a plane of carrion flies in his game. That's not stopping me, though. I have some plans in that regard, and the living castle fits into them beautifully.

I'm working up the faction descriptions now. I'll post them when I'm done, if folks don't mind possible spoilers.


----------



## Lela

The Forsaken One said:
			
		

> Btw, a lance can't be Vorpal since it's keen not slashing  The 2nd ed term for it was Puncturing I believe, other then that, no 3rd edition variant of it exists. Allthough there is for bludgeoning so why not for piercing



 Where's the bludgeoning version of Vorpal?  I've seen Impact in FaP but that's a bludgeoning keen.


----------



## Knight Otu

Lela said:
			
		

> Where's the bludgeoning version of Vorpal?  I've seen Impact in FaP but that's a bludgeoning keen.



 I thought I've seen one somewhere, but I can't find a likely candidate in my database...


----------



## Sandain

Hello,

I realise a lance cannot be Vorpal - I used the Vorpal affect mechanics to allow for the instant incapacitaion of a victim (maggot swarm).

_"squidy squelch went the vorpal lance"_ instead of _"snicker snack went the vorpal blade"_

Piratecat, I have a history mapped out for Estrella which is based around your world.  I just have no idea what her motivation would be regarding your storyline. Is it safe to assume that all the flies the snacked on Imbradarla's corpse were not destroyed and had to end up somewhere?

My Fly-Blown template is so similar to the Worm who walks template that its not really worth redesigning.  The only change would be that the host is unwilling, and the maggots can cause indescribable pain and control the hosts body movements.  An icky image for me is a sword slashes the NPC and instead of blood - buzzing flies pour from the wound.


----------



## coyote6

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Hey Bob, didn't you hear? I killed all the modrons.




Ah, I must have missed it.

So it will be _undead_ fiendish modrons, then. All that mechanical perfection, corrupted into an unending slow dirge that grinds down all resistance, until it reaches perfect order -- entropy.


----------



## Ashy

Lela said:
			
		

> Where's the bludgeoning version of Vorpal?  I've seen Impact in FaP but that's a bludgeoning keen.




I wrote this one, which wound up in Bastion's Arms and Armor.  I don't know if it was changed in editing or not, nor do I know if it will reappear in Arms and Armor 3.5, but anywho...

*Crushing:* Weapons that possess the crushing enchantment are essentially the bludgeoning weapons answer to the vorpal weapon.  In appearance, one cannot tell a weapon with the crushing enchantment from an ordinary bludgeoning weapon.  Upon a successful critical hit, a weapon with this enchantment totally crushes the opponent's head (if it has one), into dust.  As with vorpal weapons, many creatures such as oozes, abominations, golems, and some undead are not affected by the loss of a head, so the DM may have to make a judgment call as to these weapons' final effect.
Caster Level: 18th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, _Bigby’s Forceful Hand_, _Finger of Death_; Market Value: +5 Bonus


----------



## The Forsaken One

Yup that's it, and still have to post that damn NPC of mine...


----------



## Piratecat

Hey, on a related note - anyone know of any dream/nightmare-related monsters? There a darn cool three-headed night hag in the rules forum that I might use, adding a nightmare-themed cabal. If so, I want her to have some interesting lackies.

Any ideas?


----------



## MTR

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Hey, on a related note - anyone know of any dream/nightmare-related monsters? There a darn cool three-headed night hag in the rules forum that I might use, adding a nightmare-themed cabal. If so, I want her to have some interesting lackies.
> 
> Any ideas?




I don't have my books with me but I think one of the Creature Collection books had a couple dream themed monsters.

Me, I'd take an incorporeal undead as a base (wraith) and change it's appearence and the reason it's powers do what they do.  You'd have to pump the thing way up to challenge your players, so it should be unrecognizable.

In a nastier mood, I'd make something that would "fight" the character solo in the dream world while they were asleep (dream world built using the alternate plane rules).  If the player lost, they'd lose some of their abilities or take stat damage or be cursed for the next day.  That would make them think twice about saying "we rest to get our spells back."


----------



## Piratecat

MTR said:
			
		

> In a nastier mood, I'd make something that would "fight" the character solo in the dream world while they were asleep (dream world built using the alternate plane rules).  If the player lost, they'd lose some of their abilities or take stat damage or be cursed for the next day.  That would make them think twice about saying "we rest to get our spells back."




Glorious.


----------



## MTR

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Glorious.




Now can I get an official "I helped a RBDM" t-shirt?


----------



## Ashy

If so, I want mine as well.


----------



## Lela

MTR said:
			
		

> Now can I get an official "I helped a RBDM" t-shirt?



 Personally, I'd go with a mug.


----------



## Sandain

Many years ago (1995) there was a Ravenloft suppliment/adventure that dealt extensively with the Nightmare realm.

_It's just a bad dream - a very bad dream....
Beware the night, for sleep provides another path to the Demiplane of Dread. In the unique domain called the Nightmare Lands, darkness offers not blissful slumber, but ultimate terror. Heroes enter this realm at the bidding of the night, drawn from their dreaming bodies and captured by an enigmatic figure known only as the Nightmare Man. Trapped in this region of psychological fear, heroes face their worst nightmare in strange, surrealistic terrain. If they escape the treacherous clutches of dark slumber, they'll be safe - at least until the next time sleep overtakes them...._

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_297_311&products_id=1571&

It sounds like something you could use or rip ideas from. I would offer to send you my copy but its cheaper to download it from that link than international postage.


----------



## arwink

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Hey, on a related note - anyone know of any dream/nightmare-related monsters? There a darn cool three-headed night hag in the rules forum that I might use, adding a nightmare-themed cabal. If so, I want her to have some interesting lackies.




Malhavoc's Beast's of the ID had the malafide (malice made manifest on the astral plane - easy to convert to a dream beastie), the mournblade (creatures touched by a dark dream-force while in the womb), the scapeworm (again, not quite dream related by easy to convert), and the CR 20 Xenocrysyth.  All of these were pretty nifty critters that I've been looking to make use of.

An evil dream faction could also use mortal creatures they enslaved using dream-magic - immersing people in a sort of permanent lucid dream which allows them to move and react normally, but with their perceptions controled by the creatures of nightmare.


----------



## weiknarf

Dream critters that attack people in their dreams.  The catch is if the victim(s) attempt to wake up to escape the nightmare, the critters piggyback to the waking world and attack as they are waking up.


----------



## RangerWickett

Piratecat, you might recall that I have a recurring theme in my game that involves the Mother of Dreams, a psionic dragon who was infused with demonic and celestial energy, which caused her dreams to manifest as semi-corporeal creatures.  This young dragon girl, named Trilla, fled deep into the tunnels beneath the earth, where now her nightmares roam unbound.

I named these nightmares the Trillith.

Most of the dream incarnations the various parties of my setting have encountered have been based on specific concepts, like Deception, Vengeance, Agony, and Helplessness, each with trappings specific to the nightmare that spawned them.  They have mastered the methods of shaping the dreams of their mother, so that each night they can create new allies of their choosing, though Trilla resists with what little will she has left.  Sometimes she dreams of hope, freedom, or justice, and some of these dreams manage to survive the rigors of their more cruel kin.

Trillith dislike the physical.  Normally they exist as intangible psychic presences, able to affect the world through telepathy and telekinesis.  If there is appropriate material nearby, they can animate it into a form that matches their nightmare aspect.  These are often a reflection of Trilla herself, so they tend to forms that are vaguely draconic, or that are mockeries of how she perceives herself as a young Elvish girl, even though now she is thousands of years old, kept alive by her dreams.

Weak Trillith are usually bound to a single physical form, and they lack strong psychic abilities, though their appearances are often the most distrubing.  They focus on flesh-shaping just as their stronger kin perfect dreamshaping.  Greater Trillith seldom assume physical form, and are treated almost as gods by lesser Trillith.

In general, the Trillith are a mix of the powers of elementals and outsiders, and occasionally undead.  Whenever you defeat a Trillith (whatever 'defeating' means), you might gain a bit of freedom from whatever nightmare it represents, or if it is a positive dream you might gain some of its strength.  When you slay a Trillith, the psychic energy of its death floods into your mind, and if the weak-willed will be tainted by the Trillith's aspect.



One example of the Trillith show up in my Mother of Dreams storyhour (others will show up later, of course).  And in my last campaign the party dealt with several Trillith, primarily stronger ones with a specific aspect.

Deception was the most refined of the Trillith, playing something like a classical Satan from Milton.  He could project illusions of appearing as a personable old man, and it was almost impossible to not believe his lies.  When forced into a physical form, he was nothing but shadows and writhing tendrils.

If you've seen The Grudge, you know what Agony sounds like when she moves.

The strangest one ever was The World Falling Upon Itself, a Trillith that evoked complete claustrophobia in those around it.  It could grab people and drag them xorn-like into the earth.

There were others, tied heavily into the specific events of the games.  One element that encouraged the Trillith as intriguing villains was the Song, created by the Worldshaper Worm that carved the tunnels beneath the earth.  One of the great elemental spirits, it possessed sway on all things physical, and it created a song that could drive the psychic Trillith into a physcial body.  It taught the song to Trilla, and to fey native to the land below, and it was the first weapon against their tyranny of dreams.


----------



## Spatzimaus

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Hey, on a related note - anyone know of any dream/nightmare-related monsters?




Well, there's the psionics method, there's the undead method (possession), and there's the outsider method (plane of Dreams).  But just to be different I'd make the entire problem non-magical.  The following has been done before, but I'm sure you could find some interesting take on it.

---------------------

There's a fungus.  It breeds like crazy at specific times (say, at night), sending spores out on the wind.  Where the spores land on the skin of animals (especially in the hair of people or mammals), the fungus takes root.  It's a pretty small organism, to where you'd have to know what to look for to find it.  Once it's found a stable place to live, it releases a chemical into the host's body, altering the brain's biochemistry just a bit.  It's not powerful enough to actually take over the host completely, but it can nudge them in the "right" direction.  The upshot of this is, the host begins to hallucinate in specific ways.

Now, it's not a stable situation; the goal of the fungus is to kill the host after it's had time to establish itself.  And, it wants the host to die alone, close enough to others that the spores can reach new hosts but far enough away that the corpse won't be immediately found.  So, it attempts to drive its host mad, causing him to isolate himself from friends and family.  At night, when the host is asleep, the chemicals have greater effect, so the first sign is nightmares.  De ja vu will start during the day, and once the serious hallucinations start the host will withdraw in fear.  Eventually, he'll go mad and sooner or later, this'll lead to death, at which point the fungus uses the corpse as food for the next wave of spores.

The fungus itself isn't telepathic or intelligent, but it tends to activate any latent telepathic abilities in people in minor ways. and use this linkage to connect the various fungal colonies in the area.  The upshot of this is that any hallucinations seen by one host will also be seen by other infected hosts in the area.  If person A's colony makes him see a pink elephant, the other infected will also see the same pink elephant.  But, once person B thinks the elephant grew wings and left, it'd leave for everyone.  This also means many of the nightmares will be shared among multiple infected people, an early warning sign (and yet another reason the colony wants the host to isolate himself).

Since the fungus is more like a parasite than a disease, you can't just cure it with a spell; casting _Heal_ will balance the target's biochemistry, effectively resetting the clock, but it won't remove the fungal colony.  Cure Disease/Heal don't remove the "infection", any more than they'd destroy a cat you're holding in your arms.  In fact, since it's just dumping a chemical into your bloodstream, it'd be a lot like getting drunk, or maybe like being poisoned.

Anyway, since it's not magical, undead, or intelligent in any way, it shouldn't be trivial to detect.  Removal would probably just involve immersing yourself in some chemical.  Now, if you really wanted to take this further, make a group of Druids with some custom fungus-controlling spells and an immunity to its effects.  Or, add a psionic creature whose infection has caused his telepathic abilities to go out of control.


----------



## The Amazing Dingo

Having a psionic monster haunting them might be very interesting, especially if that psionic monster is the trillith they already killed way back in Eversink.  Out of all the villians, he is probably the third most memorable thus far in the campaign next to Soder and the Ivory King.  I say bring him back.

In keeping with RangerWickett's philosophy, I'd make him the embodiment of Pain.  Now, killed, he is free from his body and able to float the dreamscape.  Perhaps the demi-plane the PCs discovered way back with all the happenings/words of Eversink was actually the dreamscape where everything they saw was actually the dreams of people.  People dream things they want to say/do or things that they did and that was where it went.  After spending centuries there, he has an innate link to it now and is able to manifest there since he is seperated from his body...and is hunting down our heroes for his revenge.

Darnit, I just wanna know his name, thats all...


----------



## Piratecat

Nah, bringing back a legitimately killed enemy cheapens the effort that the PCs took to kill him. You can't do that too often. Anyways, the trillith wasn't revenge-motivated, the PCs are currently plane-hopping, and we just had a missing enemy come back in another game we play in. 

Sometimes, it's just best to let bad guys stay dead.


----------



## Plane Sailing

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Hey, on a related note - anyone know of any dream/nightmare-related monsters?




The Quori from Eberron are nice conceptually, and the most recent issue of Dragon I've seen (314?) has some additional types of Quori, some of which have very neat effects. Worth looking up.

Cheers


----------



## Piratecat

I'm saving Henry's aborted godlings for a later date - they're too good to lose. Like with Knight Otu's planar leader template; that'll see use at some point as well.  The ooze-themed devils get combined with the shapeshifting ones.

I'm mostly staying away from Sepulchrave's turf, except for what might be some inadvertent theme similiarities. Thus, no pain/pleasure fiends. I'm also avoiding demons that possess. Soder did this, as did King Farazil in Sagiro's game.

I gave serious thought to MTR's idea of making the third group very militaristic. We've just had significant interplay with modrons, though, and I don't want to step on their turf. I'll pass on the fantastic tactics for the moment. Likewise, Dr Zombie's ideas about extreme law may get incorporated as a side effect of Mechanus; I have to think about it. 

Zarathustran's ideas about lie-based powers of the third group are wonderful. I might slide these into another group, along with some of Lela's riffing on the theme, but they'll work really well. 

Anyways, there's a ton of brilliant ideas in this exchange, and I'm running out of time. I think I have my factions. I'll list them, without listing the spoilers of WHY they are opposed.

1. shapeshifters and slime devils, the servants of Blasrat the Mercurial. Blasrat is protean and mutable by nature, and her minions follow her nature. Many of her more charismatic servants can be charming when they make an effort.

Servants: fiendish doppelgangers, shapeshifters, ooze-related fiends.

2. Insectile and verminous devils. These creatures include fly-blown, and are primarily linked to Baalzebub. 

Servants: Fly-blown. Chasme. Intelligent insect swarms. 

3. Unity (the Unity of the Silver Trumpet.)

Led by a fallen solar and supported by duped archons (and not a few desolation angels), their leader Uzar ("Wrathful One") believes that by doing good at any cost he can regain his lost celestial blessing. The Gods help anyone who gets in his way when he's determined to bring about greater good.

4. Solid nightmares and dreams. These NE creatures are the minions of Fear, the three-crowned queen of nightmares (three-headed night hag queen.) They describe themselves as, for example, "I am the nightmare of a young boy who never wakes." They slowly morph like a dream, and will support whichever sides pays them the most in money, magic or larvae.

Phew! Any improvements?


----------



## Sandain

I am interested in Developing more of Baalzebubs cult if you like P-cat.  Please post and let us all know what kind of things you need more ideas on, locations, mobs, BBEG etc?


----------



## Ashy

WOW, that #4 group is rockin'!  I cannot wait to hear more about them!


----------



## Lela

Sandain said:
			
		

> I am interested in Developing more of Baalzebubs cult if you like P-cat. Please post and let us all know what kind of things you need more ideas on, locations, mobs, BBEG etc?



  Evil plots?  I'm always good with evil plots.  They're especially fun when they torment the characters.

 Mmmmmm, tormented characters. . . *drool*


----------



## RangerWickett

Pkitty, I know Sagiro has Ava Dormo and all, but were you thinking of having any dream-scape-esque adventures?


----------



## Sandain

To Marshall Englesea
From Sergeant Akaroa
3rd ranger Unit, Eversink Customs and Border Service

Dear Sir,

Our unit tracked the bandits who Waylayed the Redridge merchant caravan.  We slew them to a man and have set about finding any survivors.  

We tracked one we assume is a merchant who died of his wounds.  He was delirious but said a girl – Estrella – also survived and headed into the swamp.

We tracked her for a week and found the unfortunate girl near Fly-rock, the stone shaped a bit like a fly near the territory of the dragon Sirius the Black.  

She was riddled with maggots and leeches and was scarcely recognizable.  The insect life in this part of the swamp is supernaturally voracious it seems.

We did find this fragment of a journal, and turn it over for council evidence.

Your humble servant,

Sergeant Bill Akaroa

_Daddy said I should write down our trip to Eversink so I wouldn’t forget our great adventure!  We are leaving our city (my brother Ben says it’s a village but what does he know) because Daddy says no one wants chairs and tables there.  Daddy is a carpenter and makes nice things for people.

Since Mommy died I know Daddy has been sad and maybe moving to Eversink will make him happy.  I really miss my Mommy, but she is sleeping in a better place now.  I trust Daddy but when me and Ben found her in the woods it didn’t look like she was happy.  She smelt like a dead sheep we found last summer and had icky flies and white worms crawling all over her.  I ran away.  A bit later Daddy put her in the ground because that’s how she goes to a better place.  I don’t understand it.

Moving to Eversink is a great adventure, I have my own stallion to ride.  Its not a mule like Ben says, he is a mighty battle horse!  We are travelling with a caravan with lots of iron bars and metal things.  I don’t think they have any iron in Eversink.  Maybe they got rid of it all because it was so heavy and that’s why its sinking?

Today we came a cross a crossroad with a wicker cage.  Inside was a dead man.  I cried because it reminded me of Mommy – especially all the flies and white worms.  One of the iron merchants told me not to be scared of the worms – he calls them maggots.  And they are taking the mans soul to a nice place.  He says the flies and maggots are our friends.

Travelling is not so much fun anymore. It has been raining and my bottom is sore.  Daddy gave me this empty book to practice my letters.  He says Mommy would want me to learn to read and write like she did.  I cant write much in the rain though.

I am so scared.  As we were riding hissing came out of nowhere and people started falling off wagons and horses.  People and horses started screaming my horse Excelsior fell over and was bleeding from an arrow! I ran away into the trees and ran and ran and ran.

I woke up mostly buried in mud and muck, I screamed because bugs were all over me.  A man came out of the trees, he was walking funny and he looked white.  I ran away but fell over and cut my arm and he caught me.  He was the a merchant from our caravan and he said he had to sleep soon.  He said not to scream because the bugs and flies are my friends and gave me a shell ring.  He told me to not go back to the caravan because bad men were there.

I am lost now and very hungry.  My arm hurts a lot.

I found some berries but they made me sick.  My arm smells funny.

I have slimy black things on my legs, I try and pull them but they wont come off.  I can use the shell ring and cut them off.  I wonder where that nice man is now.  They taste horrible but didn’t make me sick.

I cant move my arm, flies keep landing on it.  I am too tired to keep shooing them away.  They are my friends and sometimes talk to me.

The flies gave me their babies.  I am their mommy too now.  I am going to sleep for a bit._


----------



## Sandain

*Fly Blown Template*

This is based on WotC Worm who Walks template from the Epic level handbook.

Type: Changes to Ooze
Hit Dice: d10 plus extra ooze hp
AC: +20 insight
SA: engulf, maggot infestation
SLA: 1/day animal friendship (vermin), animal growth (vermin), animal messenger (vermin), animal shapes (vermin), animal trance (vermin), colossal vermin, creeping doom, giant vermin, summon swarm, summon vermin, vermin plague - CL 20 for all, 
SQ: blindsight, DR 10/- SR = CR+10, frightful presence, Discorporate, Ooze traits - immune to sleep, stunning, polymorphing, not subject to critical hits or flanking
saves: no change
skills, +20 to hide, intuit direction, listen, move silently
CR: +4
Maggot Infestation (Su): Each time a target is successfully hit and dealt damage via an unarmed attack, they must make a Fortitude saving throw at the Fly-blown creatures CR+10.  Failures means that they have been injected with maggots and are afflicted by maggot infestation.  Unless treated by a remove curse and a remove disease they will take on the Fly-Blown template within 1d4 days and come under full control of the maggots collective hive mind.  Once afflicted such a creature can only be cured via a Heal, Wish, or Miracle.  It is not immediately obvious that a creature is afflicted, and retains their free will unless to begin to do or say something that threatens the maggot hive.  In this case the maggots will take control of the body and eat away the non subservient brain parts.


----------



## Lela

Wow, now that's creepy.


----------



## Sandain

This is what happens when teenage Manticors hang out with the wrong crowd.  I think thier riders will be Advanced Paragon Blackguard Fly-Blown Fiendish Trolls.

Hovering Horror: CR 17; Gargantuan Advanced Fiendish Fly-Blown Manticore Ooze ; HD 18d10+108 (Ooze) ; hp 307; Init +2; Spd 30, Fly, Clumsy 50; AC: 38 (Flatfooted:16 Touch:8); Atk +23 base melee, +16 base ranged; +23/+18 (2d6+9, 2 Claws; 2d8+4, Bite); +16 (2d6, 6 Tendrils); SA: Spikes (Ex) , Smite Good (Su) ; SQ: Scent (Ex), Darkvision (Ex): 60 ft., Spell Resistance (Ex): 27, Resistance: Fire (Ex): 20, Resistance: Cold (Ex): 20, Damage Reduction (Su): 10/+3: Blindsight, Frightful Presence, Discorporate, Ooze traits - immune to sleep, stunning, polymorphing, not subject to critical hits or flanking, Fiendish traits; AL LE; SV Fort +17, Ref +13, Will +7; STR 28, DEX 15, CON 23, INT 7, WIS 12, CHA --.
Skills: Listen +35, Spot +15, Hide +20, Intuit Direction +20, Move Silently +20
Feats: Flyby Attack, Hover, Large And In Charge, Wingover.
SA: tail spikes, engulf, maggot infestation
SLA: 1/day animal friendship (vermin), animal growth (vermin), animal messenger (vermin), animal shapes (vermin), animal trance (vermin), colossal vermin, creeping doom, giant vermin, summon swarm, summon vermin, vermin plague - CL 20 for all, 

Description: Manticores are fierce monsters that hunt widely for living flesh. They are cunning and evil, with keen, logical minds. A manticore can be a deadly enemy or a powerful ally.
       A manticore is a monster in every sense of the word. It has the head of a vaguely humanoid beast, the body of a lion, and the wings of a dragon. The creature's back is set with curved barbs, and its long tail ends in a cluster of deadly spikes.

Combat: A manticore begins most attacks with a volley of spikes, then closes. In the outdoors, it often uses its powerful wings to stay aloft during battle.

Special Attacks: Spikes (Ex): With a snap of its tail, a manticore can loose a volley of six spikes as a standard action. This attack has a range of 180 feet with no range increment. A spike threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 19 or 20. The creature can launch only twenty-four spikes in any one day.

Maggot Infestation (Su): Each time a target is successfully hit and dealt damage via an unarmed attack, they must make a Fortitude saving throw at the Fly-blown creatures CR+10. Failures means that they have been injected with maggots and are afflicted by maggot infestation. Unless treated by a remove curse and a remove disease they will take on the Fly-Blown template within 1d4 days and come under full control of the maggots collective hive mind. Once afflicted such a creature can only be cured via a Heal, Wish, or Miracle. It is not immediately obvious that a creature is afflicted, and retains their free will unless to begin to do or say something that threatens the maggot hive. In this case the maggots will take control of the body and eat away the non subservient brain parts.


----------



## Piratecat

Sandain, you're one creepy SOB. That's just great. Keep in mind that I'm working with lower CRs than you may think -- with Nolin dead and Malachite short a level, there's only one member of the group at 20th lvl.

RW, I haven't decided yet; I'm hoping to. I just had the game where all five (six, really, including the PCs and a demon summoner you don't know about) factions meet. I'm freakin' exhausted - playing so many people with opposing views is tough! - but thanks to you guys, I made it work. Here's what I did:

- Had one person from each faction talk. 
- Had faction #4 offer to sell their services to each of the other three
- Had faction #3 (the angel Unity, actually a fallen angel of wrath) be way scarier and more hardcore than any of the evil factions.
- Had faction #2, the fly-blown spokesman, assemble from flies. . . and all the flies around the room buzzed when he spoke. However, he was very genteel and aristocratic. Creepy combination.
- Had faction #1 looking like the relative good guys, just because they're the one group (including the angels) who don't think Agar should be immediately taken out of the picture.

It was some fantastic role playing, and if you guys didn't give me ideas it would have fallen flat. Thank you again.

I'm gone from the boards through Sunday night. Next week I'll give you more info on Baalzebub's faction, and we can build some stats for the BIG SIX WAY FIGHT (which the PCs might retreat from, since they don't know who their allies are) next game.


----------



## Sandain

Sorry P-Cat, I thought your crew was around lvl 22.  I can stat out the Disciple of Baalzebub from the merchant caravan for you (the nature of the divine sparked flies in the Eversink swamp may have raised him w/ the template) and give details on the forgotten sunken temple which may make a nice venue if your fighting on thier home world.

I am going away on a river boat cruise in Australia next week (ARRR! real life pirate!) so will help as much as i can before then.

Edit: you have my permission to use, change, alter, scrap, butcher any of my ideas however you see fit - its your game!


----------



## Ashy

AWESOME....  I cannot wait!


----------



## Lela

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I'm gone from the boards through Sunday night. Next week I'll give you more info on Baalzebub's faction, and we can build some stats for the BIG SIX WAY FIGHT (which the PCs might retreat from, since they don't know who their allies are) next game.



 Oi, now that sounds like a DM's nightmare and a truely memorable session wrapped in one.


----------



## MTR

Sandain, get professional help.  Seriously, that's too hardcore for me to use on my players.  

PCat, my hat is off to you (again).  You really played a six faction showdown?  I couldn't get a three way one to work.  I think I could now, if I prepared it better, but SIX!


----------



## MavrickWeirdo

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Hey, on a related note - anyone know of any dream/nightmare-related monsters? There a darn cool three-headed night hag in the rules forum that I might use, adding a nightmare-themed cabal. If so, I want her to have some interesting lackies.
> 
> Any ideas?




Have you looked at the latest issue of Dragon?


----------



## Sandain

Don't worry, I wouldn't use that on my players either! It's all just ideas and concepts - don't like 'em, then dont use 'em


----------



## Piratecat

The key in making the six-way "discussion" work was keeping in mind the very disparate goals of each faction, so that each spokesperson could make their own desires and motivations absolutely clear. This was my "You've been in informational limbo long enough, here's a ton of data about who the major players are so that you can play them off one another" game.

It also helped that I gave the group a card with each spokesperson's name on it, tried to use different voices for each NPC, and am using different color markers on the battlemap.


----------



## Joker[ZW]

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Hey Bob, didn't you hear? I killed all the modrons.



Just out of curiosity, any info on what the Parai are doing, now that you have killed their biggest enemy?


----------



## Piratecat

What the heck are the Parai? I've never heard of them... or if I have, my memory is creaky.

Enlighten me!


----------



## arwink

My memory is skittish, but I think they were LN outsiders from the Planes of Law book.


----------



## Ashy

Correct - they looked like women in slinky black, rubber dresses with masks for faces.  The backs of the masks were empty, however and filled with light.  Seems like when they would encounter a victim (i.e. someone they wanted to convert to the cause of law) the light would jump out of their heads to try and envelop them and the shell of of their bodies would try and absorb them.  I could be wrong, however.  I will check my books tonight, PC.


----------



## Knight Otu

I think I read in one of Shemeska's posts that the parai have been updated in the MM3 as the visilights...


----------



## Joker[ZW]

Parai are a different expression of LN than the Modrons, who seek only two things: beauty and perfection. If they find either of the two in a person they try to assimilate the person into their species by transforming him/her/it into a Parai.

Modrons and Parai attack each other on sight.
While Parai integrate and expand the Modrons don't have an expansionist philosophy.

Yes, they are called Visilights in 3Ed


----------



## jrtyler

Hey PCat, I absolutely love this thread. (I'm sorry I found it so late)  One thing that might also give some really good ideas for working with the outsiders is the appendices in the Fiend Folio, especially the three Fiend Prestige Classes.  Even worse, if you use Angels (or Guardinals, Eladrins, what have you) that have somewhat fallen due to their own pride and zealotry, one of the main pre-reqs of those classes is an outsider with the evil subtype (which I would definitely apply to a fallen angel, try Green Ronin's book of Fiends for templates on fallen outsiders).  Imagine, a fallen archon with the fiend of possesion prestige class.  He's so disgusted with the way he percieves others to be flawed in their fight against evil that he attempts to take them over, never realizing in his pride and arrogance that he himself has become evil by taking away free will.  
Also, I don't know if this would apply but it's a really sick thing that I did once in a game I ran.  Our sorceress had a faerie dragon familiar that got captured by the bad guys.  By the time we were able to rescue it, it's wings had been torn off and a pair of mambraneous wings grafted on.  The resulting insanity from having fiendish grafts put on a good creature carried partly over the empathic link putting the poor sorceress in anguish.  It was pretty sick.  My players hated me for that one too.  Everyone loved that sweet little dragon.  Hehe.  

John


----------



## Piratecat

John, what an interesting idea. I'm not sure I can retrofit such a class on my fallen angel, but I'll check. 

Thanks for the info on the parai! I never much paid attention to them before. I don't have a lot of love for them; I think with all the modrons dead, other creatures might be clamoring to claim part of MEchanus for themselves. Devils, formians, angels, slaadi, planar factions. . .


----------



## Knight Otu

*Not too serious post ahead.*



			
				Piratecat said:
			
		

> I think with all the modrons dead, other creatures might be clamoring to claim part of MEchanus for themselves.



 Of course, the real question is - are the modrons truly dead? Just look at the modron/Primus situation on Mechanus: gears everywhere, being under siege by formians and masked lights, being confused wirh mindless constructs, less and less influence with the rising number of inevitables and formians... doesn't sound like a plane to call home if you're into total law. Way too chaotic. 

 Ladys and gentlemen, the real reason the modrons marched early is none other than ...

 ... to find a nice new home for Primus! 

 (of course, when Primus went to that nice new home, the hierarchy of the Mechanus modrons collapsed, resulting in the seeming death of the race. But in the nice new home, they are beginning to thrive. And once they have built up a nice power base... )

 On a more serious note - was there more to the decision to kill off the modrons than the Planar Handbook controversy and the unwillingness to investigate the March of the Modrons? Just curious.


----------



## Piratecat

Knight Otu, you're smarter than you think.  

I'm happy to discuss this, but there's major freakin' spoilers. I can SPOILER them, but is this something that folks want to read? If my logic would prove useful to anyone, I'm happy to discuss the rationale.


----------



## Lela

Eh, I'm always looking to take a peak at DM logic and I'm not too worried about spoilers.  Just SPOILER them out for those who don't want to know and we should be good.


----------



## Ashy

You know me, PC, if it involves your game AND PS?  You can betcha that I want to be privy to ALL the details!


----------



## Naathez

As befits my name (Naathez was my bard in Planescape....  I miss those days...)  this is a tale I formally ask you to spin, Piratecat...

After all, knowing about the Modrons.... is info that could sell well on the Sigilian Market....

Rattle your bone-box, blood!


----------



## Sandain

Hi Pirate-Cat,

I was wondering if you have the Stats for the High level Githyanki party the PC's fought ages ago?

I refer to;

Br'Kalth (F6/Bg8)
Ali'Gith, (psychic warrior 12)
Cul'Nath (F13)
WeaponMaster Daitha'Sang, (F6 / WeaponMaster 9)
Fel'Brisa, Warlock (lvl 14)
Em'Broth ,Psion (lvl 13) 

I would like to use them if you don't mind please.


----------



## Dinkeldog

For some reason levels 12-15 no longer seem "high" when compared to the Defenders.


----------



## Ciaran

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info on the parai! I never much paid attention to them before. I don't have a lot of love for them; I think with all the modrons dead, other creatures might be clamoring to claim part of MEchanus for themselves. Devils, formians, angels, slaadi, planar factions. . .



You know, it seems to me that there are a number of Planescape factions in Sigil that would just *love* the opportunity to take over such a prime chunk of Pure Lawful real estate.  Especially one that was the former seat of a minor Power...

- Eric


----------



## Kaodi

*Mechanus*

Axiomatic Gnomes!
Yes!
Muahahahahaha!

Who else would have such a wonderful appreciation for the mechanical complexities of Mechanus? Perhaps they are even attempting to build a new Primus, or alternatively repairing and upgrading the old one.  And think, it would give you an excuse to use the little guys.

There could even be a search for an artifact that contains the instructions for such an endeavour, and that is the first component needed for a new body. The First Cog.

Err... looking back at previous posts most of that gnome stuff can probably be scratched, but The First Cog idea might still be useable...


----------



## Knightfall

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Hey, on a related note - anyone know of any dream/nightmare-related monsters? There a darn cool three-headed night hag in the rules forum that I might use, adding a nightmare-themed cabal. If so, I want her to have some interesting lackies.
> 
> Any ideas?




Here's something. It's a nightmare manifested construct. However, its CR is likely to low to challenge the Defenders. However, you could always throw it into an encounter or ramp up its Advancement Range.

Let me know what you think. 

Cheers!

KF72
---------------------------------

*Nightmare Construct*
*Huge Construct*
*Hit Dice:* 10d10+40 (95 hp)
*Initiative:* +1 (Dex)
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares)
*AC:* 18 (-2 size, +1 Dex, +9 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 17
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +5/+13
*Attack:* Slam +13 melee (2d6+12)
*Full Attack:* 2 slams +13 melee (2d6+8) and bite +11 melee  (1d6+4) and gore +11 melee (2d6+4)
*Face/Reach:* 10ft. / 10ft.
*Special Attacks:* Frightful presence, psionics
*Special Qualities:* Construct, damage reduction 15/magic, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, telepathy
*Saves:* Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 26 (+8), Dex 12 (+1), Con —, Int —, Wis 11 (+0), Cha 1 (-5)
*Skills:* See text
*Feats:* Cleave, Multiattack, Psionic Talent, Power Attack

*Environment:* Any land and underground
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 15
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Chaotic evil (neutral evil 5%)
*Advancement:* 11-16 HD (Huge); 17-30 HD (Gargantuan)

This creature is the stuff of nightmares—literally. A nightmare construct, also known as a nightwere, is the manifestation of years of abuse and neglect inflicted on a good individual with psionic potential, but who has never had any formal training. Those with this psionic curse tend to burn out physically before their true condition is discovered.

The “victim” isn’t trapped in a sleep-induced state and functions, somewhat, normally during the hours he or she is awake. However, the victim is always tired and wide-eyed. He or he doesn’t remember anything about his or her dreams. The victim doesn’t realize that he or she is connected to the nightmare construct. The truth has been known to send the victim into a state of shock, which quickly leads to coma.

As for the construct itself, its physical form depends greatly on the innermost fears of the victim. Most often it manifests as a monstrous quadruped creature, with tusks, thick fur, and glowing red eyes. When first encountered, the creature is often mistaken for a werebeast. However, the creature’s form can be anything and arachnid, insect, bird, humanoid, and reptile-like forms have all been encountered.

*Combat*
No matter what its form, the nightmare construct has these four main characteristics: It can only appear at night. It appears to be made up of a solid shadow-like matter, which normal weapons pass right through without effect. The creature projects an aura of fear in those that come near it. Finally, the creature cannot be permanently destroyed by physical damage and will reappear again and again until the victim’s mind can be healed or the victim dies.

A nightmare construct doesn’t attack with any form of true intelligence, however, it can sense opponents with psionic potential and will often attack them first (25% chance). Otherwise, it will attack opponents at random.
The victim of the nightmare construct suffers greatly each time the creature manifests. The victim must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1 for each failed save) for each “appearance” or permanently lose 1 point of Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma (roll 1d3 to determine randomly). If any of these ability scores reach 0 before the victim can be helped then the victim dies and the nightmare construct will not reappear.

The victim wakes when the nightmare construct is physically destroyed but if her or she goes to sleep again then the nightmare construct will reform. A victim will rarely be able to go back to sleep after this, suffering horrible bouts of insomnia (15% chance of being able to sleep again that night).
The only way to save the victim and permanently destroy the nightmare construct is by helping the victim through “successful” telepathic communication (role-playing solution, see below) or by psionic healing (i.e. Psychic Chirurgery power). Waking the victim temporarily disjoins the construct. Killing the victim permanently destroys the construct but only the most immoral characters will harm such a troubled soul. For while the nightmare construct is evil, the victim never is.

If the victim is comatose then the nightmare construct will appear at the onset of dusk and will appear over and over again—if destroyed over and over again—until dawn comes. In a region where there is little or no sunlight, the nightmare construct will appear more often. The characters should only receive XP once for each night the nightmare construct is active. Characters also receive full XP for permanently destroying the creature without killing the victim, in addition to previous combat victories over the construct.

*Note:* Characters that are able to talk the victim through his or her nightmare through telepathic communication should receive an Ad Hoc experience bonus, in addition to the standard XP award for defeating the creature, based on good role-playing. The DM will determine the trigger events or locations that will free the victim from his or her ordeal.

_Construct:_ Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects. A nightmare construct cannot heal damage on its own, but can be repaired by being exposing it to the light of the full moon or by the use of its psionic powers. Not subject to critical hits, non-lethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain. Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless). Not at risk of death from massive damage. Immediately dissolves away when reduced to 0 hit points or less. Since it was never alive, a nightmare construct cannot be raised or resurrected (although it reforms the next time its victim sleeps during nighttime). Nightmare constructs do not eat, sleep, or breathe.

_Frightful Presence (Ex):_ A nightmare construct can cause a panicked or shaken state in creatures, within a 30-foot range. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 3d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 3d6 rounds. Creatures with 10 or more HD are immune to a nightmare construct’s frightful presence. A successful Will Save (DC 15) negates the effect for 24 hours. The save DC is Wisdom-based, not Charisma-based.

_Psionics:_ Power points/day 130; Powers known (21)—_animal affinity_, _baleful teleport_ (DC 23), _burst_, _concussion blast_, _deceleration_ (DC 19), _detect psionics_, _dispel psionics_, _empathic feedback_, _energy adaptation_, _energy burst_ (DC 21), _eradicate invisibility_ (DC 21), _feat leech_ (DC 20), _id insinuation_ (DC 20), _inflict pain_ (DC 20), _matter agitation_, _mind thrust_, _power leech_ (DC 22), _psionic blast_ (DC 21), _psionic dismissal_ (DC 22), _telekinetic force_ (DC 21), _time hop_ (DC 21); Max. power level known 5th.

A nightmare construct is considered a 10th-level nomad but uses its Strength score for determining power points, save DCs, and any other psionic rule that would use a nomad’s Intelligence score.

_Telepathy (Su):_ The victim of the nightmare construct can communicate telepathically with any creature within 100 feet of the nightmare construct that has a language. The victim is always terrified and will often communicate in an irrational manner. The victim can’t communicate telepathically when awake.

_Skills:_ While a nightmare construct doesn’t have any skills. Its victim does and can apply those skills to the creature in certain circumstances. Specifically, the victim makes all Concentration checks when it manifests powers.

The victim’s Concentration skill total is equal to 5 + ½ the creatures HD + the victim’s Constitution modifier. You can either roll the victim’s Constitution score normally, or simply say his or her Constitution modifier is equal to 1d4+1.


----------



## Ashy

Kewl-ell, Knighty!


----------



## Knightfall

Ashy said:
			
		

> Kewl-ell, Knighty!




I aim to please. Just not P'cat's players.


----------



## Knightfall

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> I aim to please. Just not P'cat's players.




Case in point... 

Here is a fallen plantar for you to use P'Cat. Hopefully, you'll have access to all the books I referenced. (Zipped Word document attached.)

Ashy, you'll like this one too. The name is very Planescape-like. 

Cheers!

KF72


----------



## Spatzimaus

*Not a bump.*

No, this is NOT a bump.  In no way should you consider this to be a bump.  Shame on you.

It's just that Pcat has posted yet another update or two to the story thread, and I figure SOMEONE should ask the obligatory questions.  Like:

> Even though he's going to turn up again later in the story thread, can we get a rough idea of what exactly the Worm was?  Was it the sort of "I'm not going to bother giving it stats, it's powerful enough to do whatever it wants" thing, or did you actually stat it out?  (You know, the usual: 100th level, templates out the wazoo, that sort of thing)

> Now that Teliez is a god, can he finally pick up chicks without killing them?  (In the case of undead chicks, add "again" to that question)  And have you made up HIS stats yet?  Because, even though they helped him become a god, I can't see the now paladin-heavy DoD getting along too well with his new followers...

> I should probably know this one, but if a nonbeliever dies, do they go to the plane closest to their alignment, the Outlands/Sigil, or do they just disappear?  And what are the chances Nolin would join Telay and/or Soder as an undead, now that Teliez is in charge of that?  (And how would Malachite react?)

> Is it time for Agar's Bachelor Party yet, or are the DoD going to spend valuable time on trivialities like helping the world recover from the cataclysm first?  It's been 16 months since we brainstormed that part, and I'm STILL wondering what you pulled out of your hat.

And again no, this isn't a bump.


----------



## Piratecat

Knightfall, thank you for the planetar! 

Let's see. A few things that are unresolved -- the Ivory King is in fact an advanced famine spirit from MM2 (substantially changed, though), and Elder is what happens when you take a nightshade/nightcrawler and advance it REALLY far. I worked up stats at one point but they're sort of out there; with a CR somewhere around 30, the only way you want to be taking it on is from the air. Even then, prepare to be swallowed.  They weren't meant to be combat foes per se, though, so the stats don't matter too much. I was going to go off of my rough "advanced nightcrawler" notes if anyone tried to take it on.

Teliez is now a full-fledged god and I don't have to worry about stats for him. His minions? Sure. But I don't want the kind of game where PCs are trying to take out the fully divine.

Demigods in my game are like Hercules -- half mortal, half god, sired by god on mortal. They're awfully tough, but they can be killed (as Halcyon found out. Presumptious bitch.)  Now that Teliez is divine he can control his father's legacy (poisonous sweat - thanks, Dad.) and can have his own harem of hot vampires if that's what he wants.  It's good to be a God. As one of the DoD pointed out, Teliez suffers from a lack of vision and grand planning; he thinks pettily, and thus is a less dangerous foe.

Nolin was transported with the soul of Rides The Sun, and is now soaring over the skies of Elysium cojoined into a true phoenix body. He's pretty happy.  

Note that I delayed Agar's wedding by six months or so. Out of game I said "I scheduled this very quickly, but you guys need time to train and deal with the world. Any complaint if I just push it back six months and say it was always then?" No one minded, so we just rescheduled it.


----------



## Gomez

Humm, hello Piratecat. I am a long time reader and first time caller.   

I was wondering what where the ablilities of the _Crown of Bone_ before it got blown up?


----------



## Piratecat

Hmm, lets see. Etherealness, unholy aura (not that I remembered to apply the spell effect every time someone hit him, darn it; I think I forgot it half the time before it got dispelled), a big deflection bonus to AC, the ability to turn a living creature directly into a ghoul, and a boost to fast healing.


----------



## Spatzimaus

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Teliez is now a full-fledged god and I don't have to worry about stats for him. His minions? Sure. But I don't want the kind of game where PCs are trying to take out the fully divine.




True, but I'm trying to fit it into the Major God-Minor God sort of distinctions.  Imbindarla seemed like a reasonably strong/influential goddess, even if she wasn't up at the Aeos level.  Is Teliez basically starting from scratch as a really minor god, or did he just completely slide into her entire portfolio?  In that case, he'd be stronger than his father, wouldn't he?

And I don't know, but I think Teliez is smart enough to realize that if he can remove the poison sweat AND clean up his appearance in general, he can get a lot more chicks than just vampires.  Lots of semi-evil followers wanting to get in on the ground floor, so to speak.  Which reminds me: are Imbindarla's followers just going to slide over to him, or are there going to be the usual "dead god" cults?  Maybe it's just my take on it, but he doesn't seem evil enough for that; he seemed to lean heavily towards neutrality (or maybe even be neutral leaning to evil), what with the Dylrath relationship and all.  "Diet Coke of Evil"?



> Note that I delayed Agar's wedding by six months or so. Out of game I said "I scheduled this very quickly, but you guys need time to train and deal with the world. Any complaint if I just push it back six months and say it was always then?" No one minded, so we just rescheduled it.




Please say this means six months in-game, not six months real time.  IIRC you use a 1 week/level training time (or 1 week/2 levels?), so if it's just in-game, a lot of that would be spent in abstracted training.  Reason I ask is, I've just really been wondering how the whole thing turned out, which of our suggestions you ended up going with.  If I have to wait six months to find out, I might go insane... not that the fallout from the White Kingdom won't be impressive, but still.

And if KidCthulhu's new character is a Half-Erinyes/half-Halfling CN priest of Teliez named "Belle" who ends up married to Agar?  I'd buy you a pizza.


----------



## Piratecat

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> Is Teliez basically starting from scratch as a really minor god, or did he just completely slide into her entire portfolio?  In that case, he'd be stronger than his father, wouldn't he?




Aeos always had more power than Imbindarla; as always, a chart of the pantheon can be found here.  (Lordy, I can't wait until piratecat.info is back in our sweaty little hands; our friend who first got the domain name has both lost the password and the original email address he reserved it from. This is a shame, as the web site is assembled and ready to go as soon as we have somewhere to put it.)



> And I don't know, but I think Teliez is smart enough to realize that if he can remove the poison sweat AND clean up his appearance in general, he can get a lot more chicks than just vampires.  Lots of semi-evil followers wanting to get in on the ground floor, so to speak.




Some of this will be addressed in Sialia's "Voyage of the White Swallow," playing out in the Early Years thread right now. I'll place the pdf in the main story hour when she's done next week.



> Which reminds me: are Imbindarla's followers just going to slide over to him, or are there going to be the usual "dead god" cults?




A combination of the two, but mostly the latter. He's currently in the "lower-lesser-God" category right now, with lots of power but not a lot of divine respect. That'll give him something to do.



> Please say this means six months in-game, not six months real time.  IIRC you use a 1 week/level training time (or 1 week/2 levels?), so if it's just in-game, a lot of that would be spent in abstracted training.




Yes and no. A lot of side adventures and plot hooks were finished up after this, including a major assault against the mind flayers and some temple politics. We just breezed through six months of training and item creation time, of course (1 week per 2 lvls for training), but a fair amount happened before Agar headed off to the outer planes to meet his contracted bride-to-be. And THAT is quite a story in and of itself -- it's better than you're thinking.  

 But damn, I'm sorry I lost out on a pizza.


----------



## WizarDru

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Aeos always had more power than Imbindarla; as always, a chart of the pantheon can be found here. (Lordy, I can't wait until piratecat.info is back in our sweaty little hands; our friend who first got the domain name has both lost the password and the original email address he reserved it from. This is a shame, as the web site is assembled and ready to go as soon as we have somewhere to put it.)



 Inquiring minds want to know: 

 a. the party opposed Toraz, who is Teliez's dad, yes?  This was in the early years?

 b. Is it a coincidence that you have a god named Kord?  Is he any relation to the Greyhawk deity of the same name (god of Strength and....umm..._sports_, I guess)?  I only ask since it seems like you kept many of the demi-human deities from other settings like CLANGEDDIN! CLANgeddin! Clangeddin! Clangeddin. clangeddin.


----------



## Piratecat

In the big comet adventure I recently mentioned, the PCs found themselves opposed by priests of both Imbindarla and Toraz (God of Murder.) That's where they first met Teliez; he was sent to kill them.

The Torazites eventually decided that the Imbindarlans were freakin' cracked. They switched sides and allied with the Defenders in stopping the Imbindarlans. It was a decidedly uncomfortable alliance that ended up falling apart.

The name Kord is coincidental, at least to my conscious mind. Same thing with the name Eris.


----------



## Graywolf-ELM

On a different note, one started in the Story Hour thread.  It would be cool to see an NPC attempt to use a Dylrath spell against the party or in plain view.  Glom, or Breach, or the one that throw's a pie or something.  Might not mean much to the game as a whole, but might add a nice touch to the Story Hour, for people who read and follow the early years thread too.

GW


----------



## Bloodsparrow

Couldn't help but notice, in one of the most recent instalments, PC describes Malachite pushing the Emerald down into a pouch or bag (extra-plainer?) and burring it under some rations...

So my question is... If you have a horribly tainted magical emerald... Which you literally dug out of the heart of somebody like the Ivory King... 

Is it really a good idea to keep it with your FOOD?!  Particularly Iron Rations, which are the sorts of things you usually resort to when you're totally tapped out and really hungry...

Did he really put it in the same bag as where he keeps his food?

Isn't this unwise?


----------



## the Jester

Bloodsparrow said:
			
		

> stuff




Aha, you found it!   I was going to bump this for you, but I was too slow!


----------



## Piratecat

Bloodsparrow said:
			
		

> Is it really a good idea to keep it with your FOOD?!  Particularly Iron Rations, which are the sorts of things you usually resort to when you're totally tapped out and really hungry...
> 
> Did he really put it in the same bag as where he keeps his food?
> 
> Isn't this unwise?




Lordy, I _think_ he did. They may have moved the food over into another bag, first; i'll have to ask.

He was wearing it for a while, as that +8 charisma is hard to turn down. The taint got scary enough to make him stop, though. I told him that in order to purify it the emerald would have to spend a year and a day bathed in the holiness of the Chapel's altar. My logic was that this would stop him from using it until he was epic level. He ended up getting access to it a little early, but I think the whole "purification" routine worked out pretty well.


----------



## Bloodsparrow

Piratecat said:
			
		

> ... My logic was that this would stop him from using it until he was epic level. He ended up getting access to it a little early, but I think the whole "purification" routine worked out pretty well.




So what you're saying is that my question comes to late for any Ratbastardy nastyness to really come of it?  *snap*

Ah well. 

Oh, and by the way... 

Hurry up and get to the cheese already!


----------



## Spatzimaus

Bloodsparrow said:
			
		

> So what you're saying is that my question comes to late for any Ratbastardy nastyness to really come of it?




Yeah, unfortunately the whole fight with the White King happened what, 15 months ago?  (I remember we started the Death Pool in October 2003 after someone made a comment like "you'll never guess who died last night!").  So all of our ratbastardly assistance has to be given long in advance, from vague comments like "I need an Underdark trading village".  Like the whole "Agar's wedding" thing, which I'm still dying to see the resolution of; if he can vastly improve on our suggestions like he did for Akin's (Throat/Seep/Groin), or Glubyal, it should be *really* entertaining.


----------



## Ashy

Well, I can tell you from when I was up there a month or so ago and I sat in on Pkitty's game the Agar's wedding thing was _*almost*_ complete, but not quite...  So it will be some time yet before it makes it into the SH...


----------



## Knightfall

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Knightfall, thank you for the planetar!




You're welcome. I'm really proud of that creation.

Later,

KF72


----------



## Piratecat

As well you should be, my friend. Of course, they didn't try to fight it; they tried to redeem it instead. Kind of.  Bastards.


----------



## drunkadelic

Not sure if you're still looking for goodies based on Nightmare-type creatures, but there are some books from Malhavoc press that deal with a kind of cosmic nightmare force called the Dark Plea.  Both event books - "When the Sky Falls" and "Requiem For A God" deal with this kind of over-arching baddie, but if IIRC, When the Sky Falls had some particularly nasty dream-esque monsters in it.


----------



## the Jester

Hey, could we get some info on Eve's stats when she entered the game?  What level did she start out at?


----------



## Piratecat

Drunkadelic, thanks. I saw it too late!

James, she started at 17th or 18th lvl with a +2 ECL. She's a half-undead (ghost), a +4 ECL Dragon Magazine template that we customized for our own purposes. In other words, she's mostly human but with an undead taint that gives her certain interesting abilities.

KidC is updating her character sheet tonight, so I'll ask for a copy to post.

Hey, lets do some brainstorming! I have two more months off before continuing the campaign. What are some fun, easy plots with which to restart the game?


----------



## Knight Otu

Are there still a few loose ends hanging? I seem to remember a spell that prevented remembering the king's son, or something in that direction. Has that been resolved?


----------



## Lela

> *If he is destroyed along with his**closest cadre, and the entrance to the cyst sealed, the spark that drives the ghouls shall fade as well.*




Maybe not an easy plot, but is Sodor (sp?) considered part of his closest cadre? And, as a note, just because the ghouls are sparkless doesn't mean all those little goddlings currently sealed up are to stay that way. Someone, eventually, will let them go. Perhaps it should be the party; using them to take on Elder.

Also, I seem to recall something about there being another undead kingdom up north (whole undead Paladin plotline.) It would play off the party's skills.


----------



## Bloodsparrow

You could always make them go back for the sword for any number of reasons.

Just when you think you're out of the Necropolus... _they pull you back in_. 

And I think it goes without saying that I'm gibbering with glee and the introduction of my cheese.


----------



## drunkadelic

Nothing like the old nefarious doppleganger manipulating the shaky, post-godfall political climate to generate some drama. Hah, throw one in Eversink and you might have them all pulling out their hair.

Then again, you did say fun and easy...


----------



## RangerWickett

Well, they _did_ send a guy off to check on the modrons.  Maybe he comes back with word.

Not that I want to spoil anything, but can you give us a quick overview of where things stand now?


----------



## RangerWickett

The group is planeshifting, and they end up getting re-routed to the Faerie Realm for a massive party to celebrate the Festival of The Thousand Acorns.  Unfortunately, nefarious forces have stolen all the beer, and we all know that faeries die if they don't drink enough.  Can the party find the stolen beer in time?  And why would someone go to the trouble of protecting beer from even divine scrying?


----------



## weiknarf

Inch. High. Goblins.


----------



## Lela

weiknarf said:
			
		

> Inch. High. Goblins.



 With feathers.


----------



## Piratecat

Lela, doesn't that make them birds?  Heh - I think a light and fun adventure with no moral implications is just what we need.

Because you guys give a damn, I'll give you a quick summary (without any major spoilers) of where things stand now.  First, though, I've got to say that the cheese investigation you'll eventually get to read about was a real high point. Funniest session in more than a year -- Bloodsparrow, thank you.  

- The group has headed back to the prime after spending some time on the outer planes. 

- I've closed off some loose ends by assigning them to NPCs. The king's son is one of these (I'm going to run that adventure for the "west coast Defenders" next time I'm out there), as is the magical key Nolin found in the vault of Mrid. That one in particular is going to have a MAJOR effect on the game world, as it will effectively repopulate the vanished dwarven kingdoms (ie Splinder gets some company) and change the face of the political landscape across the continent.  The PCs didn't want to follow up on these, though, so I farmed them off.

- All the modrons are dead. Like usual, the PCs have no interest in further investigation. Like usual, I cry myself to sleep. This plot will slowly develop over the next game year or so; for now, there's a major battle between inevitables, slaads, mortals, angels and devils over the real estate of Mechanus.

- Soder is still working for da boss. The PCs still want to destroy him, but I'm going to make them really work hard if they want to follow through on this. It'll have some very ugly consequences, too, but that's part of the fun. I'd probably tie this adventure into one involving Elder, or involving Eve reclaiming her humanity.  I don't want to send the group back to Nacreous; if I was going to do that, I'd hand the players lower-level temporary pre-gen PCs for a session and make them roleplay other heroes on a quest.

- Elder is very, very cranky at Stone Bear and is plotting some sort of still-not-entirely-defined horrible plan. The PCs want to form a council of the most powerful people across the continent to figure out what to do about him.

- Eve wants to find out about her parents.  Minor spoilers about Eve:
[sblock]She knows that her mother was a slave, and somehow Soder took over the spirit of a king in order to impregnate the woman as part of a "flesh experiment."  Eve thinks that's why she's part ghost. She doesn't know anything about her "host father"'s history, so that's ripe for an adventure.[/sblock]
- They're still in the aftermath of Imbindarla's fall. Famine and hunger stalk the land like. . two. . great stalky things. Depending on where you go, between 20% and 60% depopulation has occurred due to the negative energy plague that the new God of Undeath stopped by his very existence.  Velendo has thousands of letters and pilgrims waiting for him, asking that he bring loved ones back to life.

- Drunkadelic, you and I think alike. There's a very powerful fiendish doppelganger who's itching to stick it to the group. That's going to be a plot that unravels slowly, though, so that he becomes a nuisance villain that they really hate.  Funny how that famous new prostitute in Eversink looks _just_ like Mara. . .

Okay, more ideas!  I'm saving faerie for a very special adventure near the end of the game. If I use something like inch-tall goblins, it's clearly not going to be a combat encounter.  Then what?


----------



## Capellan

Well, there's always that "someone finds Halcyon's arm and decide to raise her" idea we talked about.  Though I think KidC was there for that.  Still, a couple of months from now she should have forgotten who to blame 

Did they ever find Nolin's old girlfriend?  Might be worth having her turn up as Teliez's new paramour.  After all, she is undead, and he is the new god on the block


----------



## arwink

If there's a war brewing of the real estate of mechanus (and you're willing to play with planar cosmology a little) you could start having the various factions start stealing highly lawful areas from various prime planes to use as a base camp while making inroads into mechanus. 

A small group shows up, plants some truly powerful magic devices in the ground, and suddenly the city of Garrus, Bastion of the Just, is a free-floating demi-plane in the astral just off Mechanus with a horde of devils or celestials preparing for war.  Ordinarily this kind of thing is difficult to pull off, but the planar borders of the defenders prime are pretty unstable due to the whole death of goddes/divine war for ascendence that took place there.  Some of it could be Elder's influence as well - if you're going to return the world to entropy, keeping the lawful folks busy is in your best interest.

Dissappearing areas of law gives you two sets of problems to deal with - first you have to get the places back onto the prime, but you also have to deal with the added chaos when all the really organised places that are probably helping keep a lid on the wide-spread trouble that follows the death of a goddes suddenly up and dissappear.


----------



## Lela

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Lela, doesn't that make them birds?




Nah, I just meant that they were weilding feathers as weapons:



PK: "Mara, the goblins start waggling their feathers at you. Make a Will save."



Mara's Player: "Nat 1"

PK: "Fail. You're now laughing on the ground so hard you're considered helpless."

Now, whether the feather actually had anything magical to do with that I'm unsure of.

​Actually, you might consider the Kobalds from Arwink's campaign. Adding in a small character (with a 30+ Int) who constantly refered to herself in the third person really lightened things up. More so when you consider that they're _all_ named Yip. 


			
				Piratecat said:
			
		

> Funny how that famous new prostitute in Eversink looks _just_ like Mara. . .




Hmmmm, YOINK


----------



## Ashy

Pkitty, did you guys play again after I left?  Did the marriage of Agar ever happen?  That is the one element I see missing from above...  Just wondering - I don't want to post any ideas that might tread off into "pristine ground"...  

Oh yea - what average level are we talking now?


----------



## Bloodsparrow

While I do call it "my cheese", to be honest, I did swipe the meat (or in this case, the cheese) of the idea from an old Dragon article.  (Though making it magical was mine.)

And it seems to me that this cheese has more then Neual's (sp?) Mystical Dewomer on it, though what exactly the deal is remains to be seen by the rest of us.  And that would be your RBDM'ing responsible for that...

So, you're welcome.  But, thank _you_ as well... I'm pleased do be of service.  


Here's a thought...

So the Modrons all died without leaving a will and everybody wants the real estate?

I don't think so.  Modrons are creatures of order if I recall correctly.  It strikes me that they wouldn't have gone off on a potentially fatal march without putting their affairs in some sort of... order.

The named "executor" of the estate is somebody (some neutral demi-god not quite on the side of good if ya got one) who has a bone to pick with the Defenders.

So perhaps, in an act of petty revenge, the executor of the Modron's "estate" dumps the proverbial keys to the plane on the Defenders and says, "Here, you decide who gets it."

Hilarity, assassination, and Political intrigue ensue.


----------



## Gideon

Bloodsparrow said:
			
		

> So the Modrons all died without leaving a will and everybody wants the real estate?
> 
> I don't think so.  Modrons are creatures of order if I recall correctly.  It strikes me that they wouldn't have gone off on a potentially fatal march without putting their affairs in some sort of... order.
> 
> The named "executor" of the estate is somebody (some neutral demi-god not quite on the side of good if ya got one) who has a bone to pick with the Defenders.
> 
> So perhaps, in an act of petty revenge, the executor of the Modron's "estate" dumps the proverbial keys to the plane on the Defenders and says, "Here, you decide who gets it."
> 
> Hilarity, assassination, and Political intrigue ensue.




A man/woman after my own heart.  I steal from The Sandman quite often.  Well, at least base ideas.


----------



## Bloodsparrow

Gideon said:
			
		

> A man/woman after my own heart.  I steal from The Sandman quite often.  Well, at least base ideas.




Woman, thank you. 

Didn't I say...  Nope, I guess I didn't... 

That particular storyline is pretty hilarious... The aftermath was a bit of a let down though.


----------



## Sandain

I agree, the Modrons would have a last will and testament and would name an executor of thier estate.  Too bad that executor would probably be....Halcyon.  To stop a full fledged planar war the PC's may be forced to raise Halcyon.

They would of course want to be stopped by every single faction.


----------



## Knight Otu

Nah, the modrons aren't dead, they merely relocated. 

Seriously, I like the idea of resurrecting Halcyon - but would that actually be possible after the Ivory King devoured her for her divine spark?


----------



## Spatzimaus

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Hey, lets do some brainstorming! I have two more months off before continuing the campaign. What are some fun, easy plots with which to restart the game?




Oh man.  "Easy plots" for an Epic group that's coming down off of all that?

It has to be something low-combat, but still worth the Defenders' time.  The easy answer is to have them spend a couple weeks dealing with all the mundane stuff that piled up while they were out of contact.  Besides all the dead people, there's all the other stuff, usually involving the ex-Defenders; where's TomTom with all the money they invested in Eversink?  (Even if TomTom isn't available, they should be able to find SOME way of tracking down their money).  How's the church of Galanna doing?  Has that shrine to Aeos been built where he visited the group?  Did Dylrath survive?  Did Splinder's dwarves make it to their destinations?  Is the Flaming Manticore on fire again?  Have they trained up to their latest level yet?

Honestly, I think Bloodsparrow's idea is a nice framework for a long-term off-and-on adventure; let them be peripherally involved in the Mechanus aftermath.  This isn't the sort of easy, "get back into things" type of adventure you were asking for, though.  Where I'd differ from most of the suggestions: don't make it be the DoD's decision; I mean really, even though they're Epic level, that's deity-type stuff.  And not Halcyon; she was only a demigod, this is the sort of thing her grandfather (Deifos) would handle.  He's the god of Law, Order, and Demarcation, which fits this perfectly.

But I remembered something an old DM of mine tried once, and I got to thinking: you've got a War over a Lawful plane, untainted by Good or Evil, and that'd drive the nature of the battle; how would a purely Lawful war end up?  It wouldn't be nearly as chaotic as a normal war.  In fact, I'd think it'd end up more like a chess game; very organized, with rigid rules and "teams" of equal power representing the various sides.  So Deifos organizes a year-long contest of very ritualized combat, and whichever team controls the most territory at the end of the year gets the plane.  Very Modron-like, right?  If this were the "last wish" of the Modrons, it'd be even more legitimate.  In fact, the advantage of this is that instead of the winning side getting ganged up on (the current balance), it'd be more like everyone involved gangs up on anyone who deviates from the rules.  Since most contestants are very Lawful, they'd be obligated to respect the outcome, more than mortals would.

In Sigil, the betting on the outcome gets huge.  This, of course, leads to its own problems; many, many outside parties want to influence the outcome, especially the more Chaotic groups, who have a vested interest in seeing the underdog Slaad come out on top.  So there are a lot of groups attempting to cheat, and while the servants of Deifos stop most attempts directly involving Mechanus, there are a lot of things that can be done outside the plane.  This is where the Defenders come in; they can't get involved in the War itself, but they CAN make sure it goes through to its conclusion, since the last thing anyone wants is for the process to break down and another Blood War to kick off on Mechanus.

I'm not sure any of this would fit with your campaign style (it's a bit silly), and I'm not sure you'd want more plane-hopping adventures so soon after the other stuff they've done recently.  But in a way, it gets back at them for avoiding your original marching Modron plotline, by forcing the players to NOT be involved in resolving some earthshattering events, no matter how much they want to.  Besides, the thought of a sports bar in Sigil where fans of the various teams get updates on the progress...


----------



## Graywolf-ELM

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Nah, the modrons aren't dead, they merely relocated.
> 
> Seriously, I like the idea of resurrecting Halcyon - but would that actually be possible after the Ivory King devoured her for her divine spark?




When he died, would it have been released?  Maybe into someone nearby?

- Into the Ghost of Nolin, who transcended into the realms of the gods as the first God who was a ghost, thus siphoning off some of the powers of the god of undead?  Becomming a minor god of undead, specifically ghosts.  That undead god spot was just too powerful anyway.

- Into Priggle who descends in a spectacularly unspectacular underground god of that forgotten deep race.

- Into Malachite, and nobody really notices the change.

- Into that disciple of Calphas, who bemoans the addition of divinity to his lot.

etc.


----------



## BSF

I was thinking Doppleganger as well.  But I was thinking more along the lines of a Paragon Doppleganger.  Perhaps performing as Nolin?  Weave in some tale about how 
Nolin returned again without the Phoenix and not quite up to speed on everything that has happened.  He vaguely remembers the DoD, but it is all like a dream.  He has been performing and womanizing and generally being vaguely disreputable.  

Surely the DoD would want to investigate.


----------



## Bloodsparrow

I don't know...

Confronting a player (and the rest of the group) with a living version of their spectacularly dead character seems a little... 

Not very nice...


----------



## Ashy

How do you handle training, Pkat?  Do the DoD have to find someone more skilled than they to teach them the things they need to know in order to level up?  Finding someone more powerful/knowledgable than they are would be a hilarious bit!


----------



## WizarDru

How about this? The players, while in the realm of faerie, are invited to a party. There is never any question about the fact that they're the most powerful folks around, and everyone's intimidated by them. So much so, in fact, that the most powerful nobles of Faerie want to fete them all, but also go into histronic and overly-dramatic fits of terror should the PCs show any negativity. Perhaps the people of faerie know that the defenders were somehow involved with the fall of the undead empire, and now secretly fear they may be next? Perhaps they think that the defenders actually slew Imbrindarla, and are terrified of them, even as they attempt to curry their favor.

Second idea: the players attend a ball in Faerie (oh, poor Nolin...if only you were here ). While there, they get involved in a scavenger hunt that requires them to divest themselves of all their worldy items to win (for the duration of the contest)? 

Third idea: while in the realm of faerie, another of Nolin's half-siblings shows up, demanding to see his half-brother. He's dying, and only Nolin can save him. He refuses to explain to anyone else, and won't take no for an answer. Worse, he appears to have a anti-magic field in effect around him permanently.

Fourth Idea: While in the court of the Faerie King, every last single member of faerie is turned to stone, before the defneders very eyes. A curse gone wrong, or a vengeful wish? It turns out to be a young fey girl, who's accidentally found an object of incaluable power, and now she's too frightened to remember what she did, or how it works? How can the defenders help? And who wasn't turned to stone? And why are fey giants choosing this moment to invade?

You want more?  I got a million of 'em.  Sooner or later, one might actually be good.


----------



## Plane Sailing

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Okay, more ideas! I'm saving faerie for a very special adventure near the end of the game.




"...then you wake up amongst the laughing faerie and realise it was all a dream"


----------



## Vargo

Where is that cheese, anyways?  Anybody got linkage?


----------



## Sandain

Here is an idea of how a lawful war may be waged.  I think it comes from an early Star Trek episode.

The two warring parties realise that was is wasteful and destructive, so agree to basically play a war game.  They make up all thier military assets and have battles.  The thing is, when a unit is injured or killed, a judge goes back to the home town or city and the real soldiers are marched away never to be seen again.  So people live a normal peaceful life, but one day they may get a knock on the door and a judge would say, sorry maam there was a battle in this street and you were a civilian casuality.


----------



## BSF

Vargo said:
			
		

> Where is that cheese, anyways?  Anybody got linkage?




I didn't subscribe to the thread and search is down.  But I remember the thread title and my google-fu is adequate.  Thus, the Looting the Looters thread is linked to the archive for your enjoyment.  

Edit:  Check that out, the archive also includes the link to the original thread.  So here is the "live" version of Looting the Looters.  The cheese and other goodness can be found therein.


----------



## Thalantor

Wouldn't it be fun for the group - on their return to Eversink - that after a while they were approached by a band of fledgling adventurers who, in search of fame and fortune - ask the DoD for guidance and quests? 

Or, if you want a more flashy epic short adventure, you could place some of the regular Sigil merchants in Eversink. Especially if those Sigil Auctioneers are black Abishai.  

Orrr... one fo the DoD has pissed off one too many fiend or drow and now is a target for a certain assasin named Grummok?


----------



## BSF

How about the DoD are in Sigil.  A group of relatively low-level adventurers have accidentally shunted themselves to Sigil and are now getting themselves into trouble.  Maybe they are trying to get back home and are being strong armed by some locals?  

Perhaps the adventurers recognize the DoD and plead for assistance on getting out of this place and back home before they get into further trouble?


----------



## Kaodi

*This Would Be Nice And Evil, I Think*

Here is an idea I had, reinforced by the suggestions for raising Halcyon and making her executor of the estate... 

If you are willing to build up the logic for Halcyon being tasked with managing Mechanus during the transition, I had this, what I think is, a really twisted idea... Don't raise Halcyon, have someone retrieve her arm and sword, and rebuild her as a sort of cyborg-inevitable. Now, we would sort of be talking about a new metal body cast roughly in her image (i.e. the same general proportions and size), with the arm fused to it, and some regenerated sinew and bone on that side of the creatures chest. Now, being that she *was* mostly devoured by the Ivory King, there isn't going to be much of Halcyon's memory left, but maybe just enough to make things interesting.

Imagine the Defenders' reaction when the creature doffs its cloak/robe/appropriate garment.

Enjoy.

P.S. Hopefully, ideas relating more to what you were really asking for will ensue, but I thought this would be interesting enough.


----------



## Kaodi

*Oops...*

Perhaps I should of read more closely what inevitables do before suggesting that... besides, over the years, has the party run into Halcyon enough times, or experience enough resurrections of permanently dead enemies, that her mechanoid return would just elicit groans?


----------



## Kaodi

*OK, Another Attemp At Humourous Contribution*

Wasn't there an -EVIL- plot to block the Sun, once upon a time,  to bring everlasting darkness to the land?  In light of the rampant -HUNGER- and -FAMINE-, why not have an -EVIL- plot to cover all the lands in permanent daytime and sunlight. An -EVIL- scheme being brought to fruition by some horrible, delusional, twisted and -EVIL- cleric, or ex-cleric of Aeos? Something like torching the  moon, or moons, to  create another sun, with the notion that it will bring an infinite growing season, when really it will just turn the planet into one, giant desert. Or something. Even if it was just a short sidetrek, it might make for a nice parody.


----------



## weiknarf

Is Malachite still Mara's prisoner?  In either the Story Hour or where the campaign currently stands?


----------



## zakon

this should help... i also have a lesser deity version of him laying around, but i don't think you players could take him...
you need the complete arcane though
Zakon, master of limbo
male death slaad warlock13/mindbender4
STR: 20
DEX: 38
CON: 23
INT: 26
WIS: 21
CHA: 26


HP: 246
AC: 53
TOUCH: 29
FLAT FOOTED: 39
FORT: +24
REF: +27
WILL: 28

attacks: +7 heavy mace +36 melee, 1d8+12

Eldritch blast +38 ranged, 6d6

claw +29 melee, 3d6+5

INIATIATIVE: +17

SKILLS:bluff+21, diplomacy +21, knowledge(arcana)+20, sense motive+17, spellcraft+20

FEATS: battlecaster(allows casting in medium armor), battlecaster(allows casting in heavy armor), extra invoction, armor profieciency(all), cleave, great cleave, improved iniatiative, improved sunder, multiattack, power attack

INVOCTIONS: summon swarm, voidsense, hungry darkness, charm, fell flight, eldritch spear, brimstone blast, tenacious plague, vitrolic blast

control limbo: zakon can create any nonmagic item from the essence of limbo


possesions: hewards handy haversack, cloak of charisma +8, rod of wonder, ogre mage affected by permanent charm person., boots of teleport, +5 ring of protection, +5 unrestrictive(no max dex) full plate, adamantine castle on limbo


----------



## Lela

Where did you find the unrestrictive armor property?


----------



## weiknarf

Here's a challenge you can throw at the DoD.


----------



## Ao the Overkitty

Fluffy, meet my desktop.  Now stay!  Good Fluffy.


----------



## Graywolf-ELM

Choo Choo Bear the Overkitty, is that you?  Something positive might be said about you picking a puppy dog for your desktop.

Now a Choo Choo kitty might be something scary to behold.

GW


----------



## Steverooo

Mechanus having been left undefended by the uncaring Defenders of Daybreak, the Judge of Law position is now open.  Meanwhile, Elder, now free from his prison, chains, AND Stonebear, makes his way to the Court of Law to petition for the redress of greivances; namely, the theft of "his" Universe by the "new gods"!

Now PK has some choices...  Elder could find the place empty of all life, and assume the role itself... It can always find some intelligent dupe to argue its case for it!  Or, Orcus could have picked up the crown.

Now since possession is 9/10th of the law, the fact that Elder possessed the universe, previously, pretty much proves his case... unless the Dod can prove that It (and Its kind) stole it, themselves...

Of course, if Elder is running the show, he will call the other untrapped worm as a witness, and perhaps even try to get the capstone removed, to free ALL the worms!  Orcus, of course (assuming he's in command) wouldn't allow that!

Elder wants to free its own kind, and return the Universe to its previous, undead state.  Orcus wants to make everyone more miserable.  The DoD want to save the world (again)!  Every-(one/thing) is bound by the law, however, including the judge!  Only the letter of the law (and the evidence that can be brought to bear) matter...

Obviously, if the DoD lose, everyone and everything does.  Can they call the bloody-eyed Elf as a witness?  Can he add anything about the "true history" of Spira?  (And if so, won't he already be there, having foreseen his need to appear?)  Is Elder's claim to Spira really bogus?  And if so, then what is its real, true history?

Naturally, this can easily be worked in with the Prophecy of the Destroyer, and other such stuff, as the GM wishes.  Why, you could weave this tale into whole cloth, rather easily, if you like...

Obviously, combat is not an option, and there will probably be Constructs of Law (non-living) set up to enforce the rules (such as the entire Courthouse, itself).  Odd laws (such as "When a question arises for which there is no answer defined in The Law, the current godling of demarcations shall be called in to ajudicate the contested point.  Should they be unavailable within a reasonable time, then the most powerful representatives of each side shall decide the matter in a manner which suits them both, without complaint, being closetted together until the matter is decided."  Translation: This usually means that they go into the next room and battle it out until one is no longer able to object, then the trial continues).  Spells will mostly be information-oriented, and Agar's new spells should be a great help in establishing the truth...

Then, the DoD only has to PROVE it!  ;-p

This could be fun, in a non-combat sort of way.  Also, in whatever case the GM chooses, above, the Judge will obviously be hostile to the DoD!

[EDIT]: In addition, Elder would probably also charge Galanna with Theocide, although Orcus, too, is probably guilty of that, as well...


----------



## Kaodi

*Is That Critter For Real?*

He's just so cute, and creepy,  all at the same time!


----------



## Kaodi

*Really Weird Idea*

I just had a really weird idea, not sure if it would fit though. It could certainly be tied to some sort of nefarious scheme though.

If you support the idea of parallel realities located through the Plane of Shadow and that sort of stuff, I wonder if you might bring a group of Defenders from another reality where divine law prohibits taking the form other than your own, so that only the most evil, depraved creatures can or will do it. These new Defenders are deposited in this reality, without really knowing what has happened, and they start doing normal good deeds, interspersed with horrible  acts of murder of people or creatures who change forms. Now, these new Defenders can't really be said to  be evil, because where they come from they would be considered to be doing the right  thing, but they are ruining the reputation of our Defenders. Of course, when those Defenders meet our Defenders, well, they are going  to believe they are some sort of powerful demons who  must be slain, and then the fun really begins. 

Now, I must say for the record that I only posted this idea because of the interesting possibilities for how it might be resolved, not for the, " the players must defeat themselves, " angle, because it's possible they would not have to fight them directly, as I know Sagiro already made you guys fight evil versions of yourselves. Also, since these Defenders are from a different multiverse with some different rules,  they might not have the same abilities, or employ the same spells, possess the same magic items, worship the same deities, etc, etc, etc, but most of their lives would be roughly parallelled, though specific circumstances might be different.

Maybe this would be really inappropriate for your campaign, but it may spark the minds of the other readers here as well.


----------



## Kaodi

*Perhaps I Missed The " Fun " And " Easy " Parts*

A carnival. The next villain should be, yes, a carnival.

Don't forget the four armed, spellcasting mimes.

And the singing sahuagin ladies.


----------



## spyscribe

Piratecat said:
			
		

> What are some fun, easy plots with which to restart the game?




I don't know the "future events" protocol on this thread, and I've kept it fairly obtuse, but spoilered just in case.

[sblock]Well, if S&T haven't had their big day yet, that's bound to be fun... of a sort.  

Trouble is, I can't see convincing the party that their attendance would be a good idea.  Malachite almost certainly wouldn't go, or wouldn't be a good guest if he did.[/sblock]


----------



## DrZombie

A fresh and fun way to start the game again? Hmmm. I don't know what tricks you've pulled on them before, and I don't know how your players would react, but if I was playing a high-to-epic campaign I think I'd lmike to play low level for a few sessions, just as a refresher.
No more checking your sevenhundred spells and what have you not. Just some fun where battlerounds take a few minutes instead of a few hours.
So make them a few new characters, first level goblins for all I care. But with the same memories. Maybe the gods want to teach them humility. Gobbo's on the run from adventurers wanting to slaughter them, being bossed around by orcs and hobgoblins, whatever. Just to make them see the other side for a change. And you can tell 'em outgame that if the goblin dies the "main character" dies as well. Just to put a little scare into them.
Malachite the goblin paladin. Should be quite funny.

Should be amusing for a few sessions untill they discover what exactly it is they need to do. Make 'em fight the odd wolf or two. An angry orc. Whatever.

Another idea is the "groundhog-day" kinda thing (gods I love that movie). Make the same day start over and over and over again untill they find out what they need to do.

As I said, I don't know if this is something your group would accept. But it is something light and fun.

Cheers,

Maarten.


----------



## Steverooo

Here's a game that I ran in another system...  It is a "Faire" (before Tournaments, Faires, and Taverns came out), wherein all violent sports (boxing, fencing, etc.) had been outlawed.  It consisted of the following events:

Aid the Alchemist: He calls for something (Acetic Acid), and the PCs hand him something from the common items available.  Craft (Alchemy) rolls can identify, or the player might know that "Vinegar" is the correct solution.  The most correct responces wins.

Archery Contest: Most hits in (or closest to) the bull's eye wins.

Word-Scramble Puzzles: Descramble 10 in one minute or less.  Make the players actually do it, but allow the PCs to make ONE Knowledge (Arcana) roll (if they have it)/word.

Poetry Contest: Yes, the players must submit their own, before the end of the session!  The group judges the "best".

Coin Toss: 10 tosses of an honest coin, with the most correct guesses winning.  Depending upon the DM's views of omniscience, _Commune_, etc., and spells used, this is easy to get 100% on!

The Price Is Right: Bid the closest to a series of items as possible, without going over, and win the event, AND the items!  Unskilled Appraisers will do poorly!

Greased Pig Catching: My PCs loved this one...  The pig always charges towards open space, in the pen, and has the Run Feat (DEX Bonus to AC even when running).  You have to be within 5' to make a grapple attack (-4, due to the grease).  Whoever grapples the pig, and immobilizes it, wins!

Trivia Contest: Questions about the town.  Knowledge (Local), or the PCs' own experience may give the answers.

Rapid Assembly Contest: Since this game had a Mechanics skill, I used it.  Assemble multiple pieces into 10 complete units.  Least time wins.

Name That Tune: Have some songs (including a few instrumentals) lined up.  Bards can use Bardic Lore.  Anyone else can use player knowledge, or guess.

Name That Tuner: Various tuning forks are "played", and the PCs must guess the materials.

Ring-Joust: Participants must provide their own horse, saddle, reigns, and lance, as well as pay the high entry fee.  They then get three passes at lancing a ring suspended from a cross-arm attached to a pole.  Those making a hit advance to the next round, continuing until only one PC is left.

Fire-Making: Magic, chemicals, and flint & steel are specifically ruled out.  Fireboards, etc., are the ways to go.  First to make a fire wins.

Strongman Contest: Starting at 100#, take turns lifting (increasing the weight 10#/turn) until the strongest "man" is found.  Based upon maximum weight liftable, with a PC having a 50% chance to lift that, +10%/10# less...  Rolls of 1 on D20 indicate pulled muscles, and the PC must drop out...

Wargaming: Table-top battles with pretend troops...  We had a whole system of skills involved in this.  In D&D, it's probably easier just to play out a short scenario.

Original Hacking: Hacking, in the original sense, meant making furniture with an axe.  In this contest, PCs make a throne for the King and Queen crowned in "The Fairest of the Faire".

What's Wrong With This?: Show a picture, such as "Dogs Playing Poker", for one second.  The PC who spots the most things wrong with it wins.  (Yes, this takes some set-up and artistic talent... or a lot of Spot rolls).

Sneaking Past: PCs attempt to sneak past the finish line while a blind-folded judge tries to Listen to them.  If (s)he points to a PC, they're out.  No way around having Move Silently, with this one.

Pole-Climbing: Climb to the top of a 30' pole, using the gear provided, stand atop it, then climb back down, again.  Fastest wins.

The Fairest of The Faire: CHA, +1/previous event won.

All events cost something to enter (usually 1 copper piece; The Price Is Right and Ring-Joust cost more).  Part of the whole is awarded to "The Fairest of The Faire".

Of course, you could add in other events, such as Wrestling, Fencing, Boxing, Underwater Basket-Weaving, etc., if you wanted.  I selected 20 events to encompass the skills system used...


----------



## Steverooo

*Apologies*

Sorry I kilted yer thread, PC!


----------



## Bryon_Soulweaver

Err, what about this for an idea?



> Wind Moonfire
> female human, wizard3/fighter1/druid3/child of prophesy15
> Hit die: 3d4+6 plus 3d8+6 plus 15d6+30 (hp 83)
> Speed: 30' ft.
> Initiative: +3
> AC: 21 (+3 dex, +7 gloves, +1 ring)
> Attacks: _Scyth of Chaos_ (_staff of the magi_ with intellegence, wisdom, and charisma of 20, ego of 27, +7 enchantment, does double damage to lawful, an alignment of chaotic evil, and has a multicolored swirl on the blade; made from chaos) +18 melee (1d8+2)
> Special attacks: Arcane spellcasting, divine spellcasting
> Special qualities: Keen sences (able to see four times as far as humans in low-light conditions, darkvision 40' [from child of prophecy]), SR 15 (from child of prophecy)
> Saves: For + 8, Ref +8, Will +18
> Abilities: Str 14, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 13, Wis 19, Cha 23
> Skills and feats: Bluff +25, climb +7, concentration +24, craft (blacksmith, weaponsmith, armorsmith) +8, diplomacy +13, heal +9, knowledge (arcane, divine, religion) +18, knowledge (prime of adventure) +13, listen +11, spellcraft +25(+45 with gloves); craft magic arms and armor, craft wand, diehard, empower spell, endurance, enlarge spell, leadership (_31_)
> Alignment: CN
> 
> Spellcasting: Can cast as a level 18 druid and level 18 wizard. Child of Prophecy is a pristage class much like mystic theurge, expect as noted above.
> Spellbook: knows all spells 1-6 level, seven spells from 7th and 8th level spells, two 9th level spells.
> 
> Arcane Spells per day: 6/8/8/7/6/6/4/4/3/2
> Divine Spells per day: 5/7/6/6/5/4/4/3/2/1
> 
> Possession: Gloves of Fate(gives +20 knowledge (arcane), +7 to natural armor, immune to imprisonment spells and death spells), ring of protection +1, Scyth of Chaos(stole it from her mentor), _vial of liquid magic_. She has two major artifacts, Gloves of Fate and Scyth of Chaos. Wind had access to many other magical items, although none as as powerful. _Vial of liquid magic_ is a minor artifact, it creates a spell for a small amount of experiance (10 xp per spell level); 37 uses remaining. Stole the liquid magic idea from PirateCat, its a good idea.
> 
> 
> History: Born to be a rightful ruler of a dead prime, Wind was cast into a stony tomb, traveling through planes and primes until she awoke. Eight years ago she awoke, a mass bloodbath infront of her. She was the only person alive in the large city, an army of undead carried every life with them as they passed. Wind had come to make a deal with a low ranking noble family, protecting their castle and the forest and farmlands around the castle. Soon, she started learning the ways of the druids, watching herself kill a half-gobling troll destroying a nymphs home.
> 
> After half a year, Wind learned she was the prophecy of a reincarnated dragon, both her divine and arcane spellcasting gained as she learned from a wizard/cleric male elf. She bypassed his training, killing the elf when she turned 17. Now 23, and a wanted fugative, she goes from town to town, city to city, to learn different spells and knowledge about the place. She is also train to become a rogue, Wind thinks of herself as a powerful wizard , she never brings nature magic or nature where it doesnt deserve it.


----------



## Bryon_Soulweaver

dang, as soon as i post no one else does. I'll go sit in a corner now


----------



## Thalantor

Hmmm, nasty little opponent there, Bryon.  

However, how do you see her battletactics? Going from that.. how in general do you do epic battle tactics? What spells do you consider always active when a high-level combat starts? The myriad of choices is mindboggling..


----------



## Bryon_Soulweaver

Umm, I dont know. I just used an NPC my friend/dm used about a year ago. Quite the little *****, you could use her for all sorts of tactics. saving a village from destruction, getting rid of a village. Play the grim reaper type. Angel type? Anything really. Or just use her as you see fit.


----------



## Kaodi

**Bumpety**

*BUMP*

Can't let this thread be forgotten.


----------



## thatdarncat

No, we can't... and having Steverooo's tournament games and contests brought to my attention again right now is very well timed.


----------



## Steverooo

thatdarncat said:
			
		

> No, we can't... and having Steverooo's tournament games and contests brought to my attention again right now is very well timed.




Mrow!


----------



## Kaodi

*Now...*

If only PirateCat had a new mission for us, such as contemplating new allies and enemies. Directed contemplation can be somewhat better than making numerous shots in the dark.


----------



## Kaodi

*Idea That Just Came To Me*

How would you feel to have a psionic villain that possessed special Ioun stones that each also acted as a psicrystal, and possibly interacted in new and strange ways? How this person managed such a feat could be a mystery, suggesting a sinister secret attached to our friend, Congenio...

Deep Red Sphere w/ Nimble Personality
Pale Blue Rhomboid w/ Bully Personality
Scarlet And Blue Sphere w/ Sage Personality (Knowledge: Psionics)
Pearly White Spindle w/ Single-minded Personality
Pale Green Prism w/ Meticulous Personality

I'm not sure what classes I'd pick, but I think I'd go with human, or maybe tiefling...


----------



## Piratecat

Kaodi, thanks for keeping this thread alive.  

This refers to my new story hour thread, right here.

Seule asked what level Congenio Ioun is, and the players gave you an idea. Here's his actual statistics. Warning: spoiler enclosed.  *Please do not share or allude to any of this information on the main story hour thread!*

 [sblock]
-- MAJOR CAMPAIGN SECRET --

Ioun is 16th level!  Loaded down with epic magic items, but 16th level none the less.

He USED to be 27th level. Then Imbindarla died, magic ceased for 30 seconds or so, and Secretary Annel was horrified to see her friend shrivel and die from old age in the space of a few heartbeats. Ioun had used magic to extend his life, and it didn't react well to loss of magic.

He was a methodical man who had planned for this, though. Annel went down to where she kept his most recently updated clone. . .  and it was dead, too. As were the other six he had squirrelled away.  All of them nothing but rotten meat.

Finally, on a long-abandoned demiplane containing a temporary lab that Ioun had used 4000 years ago, Annel found a clone that Ioun had created at 15th level. His _first_ clone. She revived it, brought him back, and began an elaborate charade wherein she taught Ioun everything he needed to know in order to rule his empire. She keeps tight control over his interactions with strangers, and helps him protect the secret while keeping the empire running smoothly. She used to be his cohort. . .  now he's hers.

When Fajitas said "back when I was 27th level" while he was playing Ioun, it was a beautiful piece of metagaming. Folks are thinking he's 28th or 29th, not 16th.

That's why they want Corsai. If there's an external threat, Ioun probably isn't strong enough to deal with it.

Note, incidentally, that I'm using a non-3.5 version of the clone spell.  Ioun is old school!
[/sblock]
Thoughts?


----------



## Knight Otu

I've been wondering about that, as I remember that Ioun was specifically mentioned as someone who might be fatally affected by the magic silence... I was about to ask in the new thread - good thing I didn't.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

Hee hee!

That's what I was thinking since I remember this being brought up at the RBDM's club...  Still, he's got a ton of magic I imagine.  Have the players figured it out?


----------



## Piratecat

Note, incidentally, that I totally stole this idea from (contact) and the RBDMC. As far as I can tell, the group has no suspicion whatsoever.  Agar has a vision about it, but isn't interpreting it correctly.

Ioun's major magic items:

Ioun stone of superior strength: +6 str
Ioun stone of superior alacrity: +6 dex
Ioun stone of superior health: +6 con 
Ioun stone of superior intellect: +6 int
Ioun stone of superior wisdom: +6 wisdom
Ioun stone of superior charisma: +6 charisma 
Ioun stone of retributive possession: prevents anyone from stealing ioun stones
Ioun stone of peerless deflection: +8 deflection
Ioun stone of rapid healing: fast healing 3
Ioun stone of epic wizardry VI: doubles 6th lvl spells 
Ioun stone of the adamantine bear: +8 natural armor 
Ioun stone of unbreachable armor: +12 armor 
Ioun stone of epic resistance: +8 resistance bonus to saves
Ioun stone of customized appearance: all spell effects appear showier, as per the owner’s wishes. 
Ioun stone of superior spell storing: contains a meteor swarm spell, cast at 27th lvl. 
Ioun stone of unnecessary air: removes need to breath 
Ioun stone of repellant spells: grants SR 30 
Ioun stone of mystic absorbtion: absorbs spells of 8th lvl and lower (50 spell levels max) 
Ioun stone of epic leadership: +20 to all charisma skills
Ioun stone of peerless aim: +5 to hit
Ioun stone of hardened skin: DR 5/epic

Staff of rapid barrage: Either of the staff’s two powers can be activated as a free action (though the staff may only be activated once per round). 
•	Magic missile (intensified, quickened, 1 charge, 5 missiles dealing 10 points of damage each)
•	Fireball (heightened to 6th, enhanced, quickened, 1 charge, 20d6 damage, DC 19)


----------



## Elocin

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Kaodi, thanks for keeping this thread alive.
> 
> This refers to my new story hour thread, right here.
> 
> Seule asked what level Congenio Ioun is, and the players gave you an idea. Here's his actual statistics. Warning: spoiler enclosed.  *Please do not share or allude to any of this information on the main story hour thread!*
> 
> [sblock]
> -- MAJOR CAMPAIGN SECRET --
> 
> Ioun is 16th level!  Loaded down with epic magic items, but 16th level none the less.
> 
> He USED to be 27th level. Then Imbindarla died, magic ceased for 30 seconds or so, and Secretary Annel was horrified to see her friend shrivel and die from old age in the space of a few heartbeats. Ioun had used magic to extend his life, and it didn't react well to loss of magic.
> 
> He was a methodical man who had planned for this, though. Annel went down to where she kept his most recently updated clone. . .  and it was dead, too. As were the other six he had squirrelled away.  All of them nothing but rotten meat.
> 
> Finally, on a long-abandoned demiplane containing a temporary lab that Ioun had used 4000 years ago, Annel found a clone that Ioun had created at 15th level. His _first_ clone. She revived it, brought him back, and began an elaborate charade wherein she taught Ioun everything he needed to know in order to rule his empire. She keeps tight control over his interactions with strangers, and helps him protect the secret while keeping the empire running smoothly. She used to be his cohort. . .  now he's hers.
> 
> When Fajitas said "back when I was 27th level" while he was playing Ioun, it was a beautiful piece of metagaming. Folks are thinking he's 28th or 29th, not 16th.
> 
> That's why they want Corsai. If there's an external threat, Ioun probably isn't strong enough to deal with it.
> 
> Note, incidentally, that I'm using a non-3.5 version of the clone spell.  Ioun is old school!
> [/sblock]
> Thoughts?




My only thoughts are when they find out you better be standing and near an exit otherwise your players are going to kill you.  I would also have a VERY nice gift handy for KidC otherwise you will be sleeping outside.

This is utterly brilliant!!!!


----------



## WizarDru

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Thoughts?




Oh, you glorious BASTARD, you.  

Game, set and match.  It's not that you stab them, it's how you twist the knife that amazes me so.  I bow to such inspired rat-bastardry.


----------



## spyscribe

Oh that is great.  The conversation between Congenio and Annel reads just a bit differently now.  Sneaky sneaky.

Very nice.


----------



## Spatzimaus

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Thoughts?




One thought: you are an evil, evil man.  It's a beautiful trick to play on the players.  Just a few thoughts/questions:

You implied that the New Story Hour is more or less current, and if I were a player who didn't know, that whole conversation between Ioun and Annel would be suspicious, unless you'd previously established a bit of senility/forgetfulness on Ioun's part, since it'd be sort of hard for him to forget Velendo.

So here's the big question.
In a fight between Ioun and his forces on one side, and the forces of Corsai (with other Aeosians, the Defenders and any of THEIR allies they bring in) on the other, who'd win?  The odds of this fight ever happening are irrelevant, it's all about the balance of power during the negotiations.

Back when he was 27, the answer would be Ioun's side, I'd assume.  But now, I'm not so sure.  If the Iounians are still much stronger than the Aeosians, then it doesn't really matter.  Sure, it makes Ioun more of a figurehead if the truth comes out, but that's hardly a new situation.  But let's assume for the moment that the Aeosians, with their various allies, are at least comparable in power to Ioun's forces.

If Ioun doesn't come clean during the negotiations with Corsai, things could get very interesting when the truth comes out.  A Lawful philosophy cuts both ways.  The letter of the law says that the terms of a treaty would hold, regardless of this, but the spirit of the law would say that negotiating in bad faith would invalidate any treaty.  And, all of its military aspects would have been written under the assumption that Ioun and his forces could pull their own weight.  Even if Ioun's forces are still fairly strong without his direct assistance, the principle would still hold, and the church of Aeos can get really stuck on "principle", especially now that they don't answer to a civilian authority on these matters.  If they find out he was trying to manipulate them into doing the lion's share of any fighting, things could get ugly quickly.

The same goes for the Defenders and the worm fight.  If they arrange political concessions to Ioun in exchange for his assistance, and then it turns out he's weaker than any of them, then what'll happen?  Besides just annoying a group of really powerful warriors, Ioun would also be alienating several major religions, nations, and organizations, not to mention endangering the world during a fight with the two near-deity-level worms.  And then, once it becomes general knowledge that Ioun's nothing but a recently-reanimated cohort, I'd expect his whole empire to unravel.  The parts nearest Corsai would probably ask for their protection instead of Ioun's.  It might not lead to a full civil war, since the Aeosians haven't seemed too expansionist, but if it came to open war, Ioun knows which side the Defenders would jump in on, which brings us back to the first question.

So, if Ioun doesn't come clean AND his weakening shifted the balance of power to where any negotiating is in bad faith, the backlash could be huge, and the gains could be undone/repudiated by the Aeosians.  Of course, as you once said in the story hour during the Ghouleax incident, Ioun has a history of short-sighted actions for his own benefit.  So, he might honestly believe that no one will figure it out, or that once they do any treaties will keep them from doing anything about it.

On the other hand, if the Defenders DO find out before the negotiations are finalized, they could easily end up with a better outcome.  Ioun seemed to want an empire, with Corsai as a near-vassal state.  But with the power shifting, you could see it working out more as a confederation, or even with Corsai as the primary city and Ioun acting as more of a Prime Minister than an emperor.


----------



## Dakkareth

Please excuse me while I go out to indulge in maniacal laughter ... 
















... ok, back. That's one ingenious twist, oh yes.


----------



## jerichothebard

That.... That is so beautiful, it makes me cry.

 


Someday, I'm going to steal that idea.


jtb


----------



## Piratecat

Lots of great things to reply to, but I'm off for the weekend. See you Monday.


----------



## Lord Pendragon

It's a brilliant twist.  I love the fact that it once again shows a consequence of Imbindarla's death.  The death of the goddess really has reverberated throughout Spira on multiple levels.

I can't help but wonder, though, why Annel didn't find herself a 16th-level cleric and have Ioun _True Resurrected_, rather than resuscitating an old clone.  Since he died but recently, it should have still been possible, and he'd be 27th-level again, rather than 16th...


----------



## Spatzimaus

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> I can't help but wonder, though, why Annel didn't find herself a 16th-level cleric and have Ioun _True Resurrected_.




Quote from SRD:
"Even true resurrection can’t restore to life a creature who has died of old age"
The other resurrection spells, and Reincarnate, all have this wording as well.  Ioun was using magic to extend his life, so he was way, way past "old age".

The Clone's the only way around this; all it says is that if someone's reached the end of their natural lifespan the cloning itself fails, since you can Clone after the person died.  But there's nothing about creating the Clone before old age hits, and storing it indefinitely.


----------



## Kaodi

*Hmmm...*

I know PC is away for the weekend, but to expand on my previous idea, I was thinking that this villainous person might be an (apparently) extremely distant relative, a psionically talented tiefling who was pressed at into being a wizardling apprentice of Congenio, by his parents, at a young age due to a natural brilliance.

I was thinking that this character would have started as a psion 2, gained 6 levels of wizard, and then continued up to a 15th or higher level psion. A newly created magical item (a minor artifact) that the mighty Ioun had been working on fell into the hands of this character, allowing them to create these powerful Ioun psicrystals, combining the powers of an Ioun stone, a psicrystal and a cognizance crystal and also possesses a single low level power that the each stone can manifest by iteself. After the creation of the first four or five of these items, the artifacts power was drained, and the person in question does not know how to restore it, which is fortunate, because perhaps the most powerful of these stones abilities is to enter into a metaconcert with their creator. Of course, the secrets of this artifact would of been only know to Congenio and this relative, and when the relative found that Congenio no longer knew about it, he grew suspiscious and now plots to direct the turn of events to his own advantages...


----------



## Zaruthustran

PirateCat said:
			
		

> He considered. “Both sides will benefit. I’ve negotiated worse, back in the old days.”
> 
> “I remember,” said Annel tartly.




So if Ioun died of old age, and Annel remembers "the old days", why didn't Annel die of old age as well?

Is Annel undead? A construct? Or other non-time-limited critter?

-z


----------



## Greybar

Now in all fairness, Ioun is still nothing to sneer at in the general scheme of things.  And if Annel is actually more powerful than Ioun, perhaps she is at the low end of the Defender's scale.  Not "take on Elder by themselves" but still very powerful.  But if they ever are relying on him to pull out a Wish...


----------



## Piratecat

Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> So if Ioun died of old age, and Annel remembers "the old days", why didn't Annel die of old age as well?




Nothing that exotic. Annel is in her late 40's, and has been in Ioun's service since she was a little girl. Her mother had been, too.  And her grandmother. And her great-grandmother. 

In the quote you mentioned, Ioun is referring to the (rather foolish and incompetent, compared to the other wizard-kings) deals he made long before Annel was alive, and Annel is wryly referring to the much more polished deals that the later Ioun negotiated, and which the "new" Ioun has no memory of. They know each other well enough that this sort of in-joke happens all the time between them. Go figure.

Annel is a 19th or 20th level Marshal, as per the Miniatures Handbook. Neat core class.

Spatz brings up some fascinating political questions. The brief answer is that while Ioun is in no mood to be expansionist, he wants to hedge his bets and arrange for some stability for the empire should anything happen to him that can't be fixed. Combining the might of Corsai alone into his Empire (which I need a good name for - any ideas?) is going to be enough to discourage most outside aggression. It also allows me to let him name a PC as heir, should I ever feel the need to complicate my players' lives even more.  

I fully expect things to get interesting if/when the PCs find out the truth. That's part of the fun. Ioun is exceptionally competent, but all the sorcerer kings were ruthless and self-centered SOBs. The old Ioun was pretty good compared to most of them, because at heart he's an intellectual and insular librarian who's not much interested in politics but who really liked feeling secure. The new Ioun is a little more adventurous, and that might play out in game. It provides a subtle hint that the PCs may or may not pick up on.

I'm not planning on screwing over the group, though. If they make a deal with Ioun, I'll make sure that his font of knowledge (limited as it currently is, with +30-something knowledge checks) proves to be essential.


----------



## Piratecat

Kaodi, you're working it too hard. Maybe I'm getting lazy in my old age, but if I made such a villain - and it's a really fun image - I'd probably justify it solely by DM fiat.  

I can hear all the little crystals arguing simultaneously. . .


----------



## Kaodi

*Hehehe...*

Sagiro's and the other's banter about the level of Ioun is just too rich, given what we know, hehehe...

Anyway, as for names...

The House Congenio Built
Land of the Spinning Rocks
Where He Took Ellipsoids For 2000, Alex
One Stone, Two Stone, Red Stone, Blue Stone

The Empire of Iounia
The Manifold Empire of the Earthtears
The Kingdom of the Spelltears
The Everlasting Wizard's Kingdom

Far Chysera
Eneloch
Old Yagir
Kaneluthe
Ancient Basuron
Rainbowcrown
.....
....
...
..
.


----------



## Lela

Stone Empire


Sounds very solid while still being a pun.


----------



## Steverooo

Kaodi said:
			
		

> The Empire of Iounia




Awww, he beat me to it!


----------



## Twiller

Oh.  My.  God.

Every time I wonder what fascinatingly brilliant twist PKitty will come up with to RBDM his players...

And every time I am amazed, and NEVER disappointed.


----------



## Spatzimaus

Kaodi said:
			
		

> The Empire of Iounia




That's why I called them "Iounians" in my post earlier.  It just sounds neat, with all of those vowel sounds, just like "Aeosian".  Unfortunately, I also think it's a bad idea for that name to stick.  I think it'd REALLY help if it were (officially at least) not so Ioun-centric.  Sure, he organized it and is Emperor, but that's not the same thing, especially now that he's no longer immortal (whatever magic was preventing his aging wouldn't have tranferred to the clone, right?).  Although, "Iounian" isn't so bad when you realize that using his first name would give you "Congenitals" or something.

I think it'd be funny if there was no formal name at all, and everyone just referred to it as "the Empire" or "Ioun's Empire", since it's not like there are a lot of other empires nearby it could be confused with.  Joining with Corsai would give a good excuse for a re-naming anyway, especially if it ceased to be an actual Empire in the process.


----------



## Greybar

I guess the big question is whether there are people who have, for generations, been subjects of Ioun's.  Is there a true standing infrastructure that has power separate from Ioun's.  With one persisting personallity on the throne, the empire might be more a cult of personality (on a grand sale) than a true empire.

Which also means it could collapse if Ioun was exposed as a fraud (so to speak).  Which means that the Defenders would find themselves having to help buttress and repeat the lie of Ioun's strength in order to serve the greater good.


----------



## Piratecat

Greybar said:
			
		

> I guess the big question is whether there are people who have, for generations, been subjects of Ioun's.




Nope. The PCs freed him from time-trapped captivity about 4 years ago in game, maybe five. Before then the world had moved on and forgotten him. As a result, he's a relatively new player on the political chessboard.


----------



## Ashardalon

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> Although, "Iounian" isn't so bad when you realize that using his first name would give you "Congenitals" or something.



I'm thinking using the first name isn't that bad, actually. Just get rid of that "t", it doesn't belong there...

Congenial Empire.


----------



## WizarDru

The Ioun Compact

The Congenio Commonweal

The Constant Empire

The Inheritor Gallimaufry

The Second Stability


----------



## Kugar

Hi PC, I like the way you are splitting your story hours.  Sorry for my absence for a while but I have had some recent RL joy that takes up a lot of spare time.  If you are still soliciting ideas, here are some.

  If I was Ioun, I would be tempted to grap a quick power-up.  Maybe I would drop the location of one of the worms, ponder the ability of the seals to survive the death,  and acquiesce to requests to accompany the defenders to check it out in order to gain some quick experience. Leave to the good old boys to know where all the really great monsters are.
 
   Of course, since the death of Imbindarla, most of his higher level custom spells are a wee bit unpredictable - so he'd much rather use these wands and stuff until he has time to work out the kinks in his magic.

  There also has to be some sort of Doomsday Cult out there who's membership has skyrocketed.  Maybe they have a leader who is courting worship and has a plan to acsend into godhood powerful enough to take on the Dark Hunger (or plan to assasinate the Hunger somehow)

   I am also surprized none of the party's patron gods did not want to get any of the profile boosting action.  Aeos could have taken that power, destroyed all the undead once and for all and obliterated the profile.  As time goes on and the Hunger becomes more powerful and comfortable with his powers, the involvment of the Defenders might come into more question.

   Do you see the Worms as a primal source of entropy of destruction, or do you think they are intelligent enough to have a plan for revenge once they were released?

  With a well developed game world and high level characters, there is one type of sub-plot I think you can pull off.  Hide and seek.  There are various nefarious bad guys who would love to see the defenders chasing their tail or spread too thin.  One divination\detection proof baddie with teleport can make the Defenders have to make some "strategic" decisions.  There are various people places and things scattered across Spira and keeping them all safe would be a job in and of itsself.  The pressure builds if the situation cannot be resloved before another threat starts.

  I know the Mechanus plot was March/Dead Gods inspired so you would be remiss if the antagonist of that story did not greatly benifit from the party's negligence.  It could make the situation on Mechanus seem like candy-day and put the realtive weekness of the Dark Hunger center stage.


----------



## Kaodi

*Huh?*

If Ioun was revived only a couple of years ago, does that mean Annel was trapped along with him? How else could her family have served the wizard for generations?


The Returned Empire of Sorakh's Fjord.

Crystalpeak (that perhaps being the name of the city where Ioun founded his original kingdom, due to a nearby mountains that held the gems he used in his original research)

Doraphrim's Way (name of where his family came from?)

Wherever they Defenders found him, maybe it would be something like, the Empire of X. (hehehe, I just thought maybe you could turn that into a name itself, like the Empire of Ex, Exx, Eks or Ekz)

As a side note, of my own ideas, I think my favourite so far are Rainbowcrown and Crystalpeak. I think a good name should either relate in some way to what he is famous for, or something significant from his ancient past, or just a location, like the name of his capital.


----------



## Len

Kaodi said:
			
		

> If Ioun was revived only a couple of years ago, does that mean Annel was trapped along with him? How else could her family have served the wizard for generations?



They also serve who only stand and wait.


----------



## Piratecat

Kaodi said:
			
		

> If Ioun was revived only a couple of years ago, does that mean Annel was trapped along with him? How else could her family have served the wizard for generations?




I really should write that damn adventure up. Yes, Ioun's whole tower and everything in a 10 mile radius was frozen in time. Anyone entering would slowly lose time as well, becoming slower and slower until they too became stuck.



			
				Kugar said:
			
		

> Do you see the Worms as a primal source of entropy of destruction, or do you think they are intelligent enough to have a plan for revenge once they were released?




Bwah ha ha!

Oh, never you mind. Thanks to Fajitas, I have a superb plan for what the worms are up to.  Snicker.


----------



## Steverooo

*Ooohhh!*

Somebody eat those Fajitas, already!


----------



## Kaodi

*Opponents*

Are there any kinds of villains, mooks, you need or could use statted up at this point in the game, or somewhere in the near future, PirateCat? Magical items, locations, etc, etc, etc, or just keep the ideas rolling?


----------



## Seule

Well gosh, apparently I spoke truer than I knew.  Ioun is...  brilliant.    I do wonder how long he can keep it up.

I would think that Ioun would be working to decentralize the empire, so people don't have to rely on him as much.  Recruiting the Defenders to be his troubleshooters would be perfect, as everyone will look at them, and assume he's more powerful (as will they).  He meanwhile, can be "doing something else vitally important that takes all his magical energy".
That gives him an excuse as to why he's not dealing with threats to the empire personally, he's got people for that.

  --Seule


----------



## Spatzimaus

Seule said:
			
		

> He meanwhile, can be "doing something else vitally important that takes all his magical energy".




Oh yeah, the classic "I'm protecting you from forces you couldn't even comprehend!" line.  Good stuff, although I'd say that he should be REALLY careful pretending to be the all-powerful Wizard until after he hits at least level 17 (Wish).  Until then, someone might ask him to cast one of his 9th-level spells, and if he's not able...

The beauty of the decentralization idea is, everyone who knew Ioun has probably already accepted that Annel is his voice in day-to-day operations.  Sure, Ioun was the public face of the empire, but nothing would actually get done without her input.  The only thing she lacked was official rank for dealing with the nobility of other kingdoms; sure, when they'd come to see Ioun, she'd deal with them as his assistant, but the other way around doesn't really work.

So if Ioun were to declare Annel to be "Prime Minister" of something closer to a confederation, everyone would just ASSUME that he's still going to be controlling from the throne, and that the rank is simply for diplomatic expediency.  Everyone would negotiate with her, with the understanding that she'd take any treaties to him for final approval.  In fact, she really IS going to be running the place, while he's almost a figurehead.  It's hiding the truth in plain sight; there's no actual lie involved, everyone just sees the situation and interprets it through what they know of the facts.
(Okay, a near-Epic caster with all that equipment isn't actually a "figurehead", but you get the point.  He'd be more like her mystical advisor.)


----------



## Piratecat

Right. You guys are getting at what I'm trying for. With Annel set up as prime minister, the empire should be in pretty good hands. Until all the clouds fall, at least. . .

Wait, did I say that? I'm getting months ahead of myself. No blabbing to the players, and forget I even mentioned it.  

One thing for you today: a request for personalities/stats/history.

I'm probably going to require the group to talk to important and/or knowledgeable people all over the world who know anything about the worms. These people don't have to be combat-powerful per se, but they may be eccentric, dangerous politically, or have other complications attached to them. They also may be non-human. So ask yourself: other than that blind elven sage (who is now dead of old age), who might know anything about pre-history? What they know doesn't necessarily have to be correct, and they can be from almost any culture (I'll require trips to different continents.) Don't stat them up unless you're so inclined, but interesting thumbnail sketches of possible NPCs would be great!  Extra goodness if they come with plot hooks.


----------



## Piratecat

One more thing: Cruciel's revised stats. I've changed her class to be a Champion, from Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved. That's a great book, and I'm yoinking all kinds of good ideas from it. This class reflects my view of Cruciel much better than her old devoted defender class did, although it'll still have a few more edits before it's final.

The file is certified virus-free.

I welcome comments and kibitzing.


----------



## Orichalcum

*Idea for NPC...*

So, the idea that comes to my mind is of a palentologist of some sort - or rather a wormologist, specializing in looking at rock strata that indicate the former passage and presence of the Worms. He probably has totally crazy theories about what his discoveries represent, and is a little on the head-in-the-rock-pit side of things.

This may not be usable, but I throw it out there.

Also, the things that survive longest from oral traditions/prehistory are ritual chants, ranging from magic spells to children's games. The idea of some seemingly harmless version of "Here we go round the Mulberry Bush" is very appealing.

Pop goes the Elder!


----------



## Seule

Well, the ones who are likely to have collected the most info are likely the ones who have been around the longest.  Demiliches spring to mind, and as a bonus are a) epic (from the ELH, anyway) and b) likely to be uncooperative.  I'd stat one up, but it's too much work.  I envision a sage who became a lich because there just wasn't time to learn everything that she wanted to know, and just kept studying everything (including the Worms) until she fell apart.  Now, being mostly immobile, she wants nothing more than information about whatever her obsession is, which could range from the grand (world-ending events) to the small (clothing fashions across the world).  I'd play her as a doddering old librarian type, except she's nothing more than a skull and a few bones, and she wields godlike power.  Heck, make her still concerned with how her appearance is.  "I know I can't do lipstick any more, but does this headband minimize my cheekbones?  I really hope so."
Not to stereotype, or anything.  But why do Liches all have to be male?  Heck, after the recent shakeup, I'd expect becoming a Lich is a lot easier if you're female and attractive.  

  --Seule


----------



## Vargo

The Mind Flayers - especially a certain converted Elder Brain may come in handy, assuming it has survived since the DoD returned to the surface world.  Also, creatures of a pseudonatural bent, being disconncted from the timestream, may be currently living both in our current time and in the time of the worms - they may be an excellent, if very hard to understand, source of information.

I'm referring, of course, to epic pseudonatural beings, not the wussy pseudos in Complete Arcane/Tome and Blood.  Hmm, a pseudonatural mind flayer, perhaps?  Double your tentacles, double your fun...


----------



## Spatzimaus

Piratecat said:
			
		

> So ask yourself: other than that blind elven sage (who is now dead of old age), who might know anything about pre-history?




The classic answers:
1> GODS.  I mean really, if Calphas, Galanna, and Aeos can't fill you in on the missing information, why would you expect some old Elf to do it?  Now, if you're going to say that the current gods don't know anything about what happened before they arrived, then the real question is, what WAS there before them?  Primal forces, Chaos?  Are there any people who pray to that?  It'd be sort of funny if the solution to this was to track down a "cult" that worships those sorts of abstract concepts and ask them to "commune" with their gods.  I'm sure you could find some, especially on the outer planes.

2> DRAGONS, but they seem to be few and far between in your campaign.  Anything that lives for more than a millenium is bound to know this sort of thing, even if they weren't personally involved in it.  On the bright side, though, you don't have to make this into an instant information source for the players, simply through personality.  In my campaign, I had an old silver dragon with Druid levels who lived in a remote jungle (where he watched over a tribe of semi-feral Wild Elves).  The players tried to go to him for information, but were basically stymied by the fact that he just didn't care.  He took that whole "true neutral" thing to the extreme; he had decided to protect "nature", they and their gods weren't part of nature, and that was the end of it.

3> THE DEAD.  Hagiok would probably be a great source of information; being an immortal academic does that for you.  Soder probably works, too.  The point isn't necessarily whether they know the information themselves, it's whether they can put the players in contact with an older undead who does.  For instance, ask yourself: the Worms turned the existing "people" into undead, right?  So, when the worms were trapped and Aeos was born, were ALL of the undead destroyed?  Maybe a few survived underground, although they're probably insane/senile/etc. by now.  The players would have no clue how to find them... but Soder would probably know.

(Combine #2 and #3: an undead silver dragon who's become a Druid and hasn't ever been evil!  Malachite would have a fit.)

4> POWERFUL ARCANE MAGES.  Ioun, that is.  He lived 4000 years ago, and clearly was a pretty smart guy back then.  From the sound of it, no one else really fits into this category.  You can't really include powerful priests or druids, since they'd only have learned this information through their gods in the first place.

But there are other options.  In certain points in history, Monks preserved knowledge.  That's been overdone, although it still works.

In one campaign I was in, there was a wide-ranging merchant guild that was, officially at least, a subsidiary of the Church of Moradin.  Besides being a front for guilds of Psions and Sorcerers in areas where they were persecuted, this guild also collected information.  They'd accumulate TONS of information, cross-reference it, and file it away in extradimensional spaces (and a few demi-planes), just on the off-chance it'd come in handy at some point.  Not to sell, or blackmail people with, but just because it was almost always in your best interest to know things.

On one hand, this gives you a way out of a logical problem.  If you were to add an NPC that had firsthand knowledge of the worms, you'd have to accept that EVERYTHING that NPC knew could theoretically be up for grabs.  But in an archive like this, you can be more incomplete.  For instance, what if what was stored was a fragmented millenia-old account of a conversation with a half-insane wraith who had, several millenia before, encountered one of the final undead created by the original Worms, just before it voluntarily destroyed itself?  You can then limit the exact amount of information as much as you want, just like in a prophecy, since the players can't go back to the original information source for more.
On the other hand, it's pretty contrived, and even if you can limit what information is available on THIS topic, it opens the door for research into too many OTHER topics.  Libraries tend to do that.

Oh, and as to Cruciel's character sheet: With how the story hour is going, I think that "no ceiling may collapse within 100' of you" ability is going to be coming in handy soon...


----------



## Zaruthustran

I think a Galeb Durh would be a pretty fun source of info. I suppose he'd be kind of Treebeard-ish, but you could find ways to make him a unique "really old creature of nature". Like, maybe he's the size of a mountain--he *is* a mountain--but thinks and speaks so slowly (as in 1 year to say "hello") that the players will have to come up with a clever way to communicate with him. 

I also like an undead unicorn. But instead of undead, more along the lines of undying (in the Eberron sense). Or maybe it's continually reborn like Budha.

Lastly, how about an ancient elemental? Like the First Wind, which still blows around way, way, way up in the stratosphere? Or is trapped in/fled to Pandemonium? 

-z


----------



## Len

Piratecat said:
			
		

> So ask yourself: other than that blind elven sage (who is now dead of old age), who might know anything about pre-history?



How about a powerful diviner who can only divine the past, not the present or the future.

I'm no good at NPCs so you'll have to fill in the details yourself. I'm thinking about a powerful wizard who casts divination spells similar to _scrying,_ _discern location,_ etc. but which can only give information about things that no longer exist.

As a bonus, the diviner could tell the Defenders something about their own past that they didn't know. Maybe something about some loose end that the party never figured out. Like, "The last time the modrons marched early, _everybody died!_"


----------



## jerichothebard

In my campaign, the merchant patron of one of the characters has trade records going back to the founding of her House.  It's been intimated that more information than just sales figures are in the journals; they were the personal journals of the leaders of one of the biggest Great Houses in the land... if anyone was in a position to know something, they were.  Though they are kept very secret, as only the current leader has read them all.  It is a duty of the new leader, on being tapped for ascension, to read them all, cover to cover.  It takes a while.

That reminds me, I have to tell that to the player of that character, who has just been tapped as the backup in case the current situation isn't resolved with the survival of the current House leader...


jtb.


----------



## MTR

Without reading the previous posts....

Didn't you have an elemental prophet/seer?  Can the party get back to her?

Perhaps there was a very knowledge sage who's dead.  The party needs to track down the lost tomb of Anken-Ra and Resurrect him.  After he gives them the info you still have him alive and kicking around the game world as a plot hook.

No doubt you have demons/devil lords/vampires and other assorted evil old guys who could know quite a lot.  The party would need to get to them, start a peaceful conversation, no doubt jump through a few hoops - and still wouldn't be sure they could trust the info.

Take a page from the middle ages and have a hermit who sits on top of a tall pole.  He's cranky and demands the party perform a variety of menial tasks.  More comic relief than a challenge.

Monte Cook had a plane populated by intelligent dinosaurs.  The PCs get the experience of being smaller and weaker than everybody else.

I never took the term "worm" to be biologically correct, but if it is perhaps the party needs to question a lowly earthworm.

And of course... the last of the Modrons knows all!

EDIT: What about consulting Nolin's shade?  Much roleplaying opportunity.


----------



## Lela

Seule said:
			
		

> Not to stereotype, or anything. But why do Liches all have to be male? Heck, after the recent shakeup, I'd expect becoming a Lich is a lot easier if you're female and attractive.




Does a Demilitch have a gender anymore?


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot

NPC I-more aimed at interacting with the deity-worshipping folks of the DoD
My first thought would be an immortal, akin to Ioun-however, due to magic failing, they couldn't really have been mortal in the first place.  I was thinking of an outsider who's spent a longgg time on Spira, perhaps a fallen angel if you want to make roleplaying interactions more interesting (Something once good but now neutral, opposed to a devils/demons, which the party may have already faced during Agar's wedding phase ).  If you plan to go that route, might I suggest a figure with a personality akin to Dorian Gray (a handsome man turned immortal who has been corrupted from innocence into debauchery from the story _The Picture of Dorian Gray_, although he's also depicted in _the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen_)?  In DnD terms, he could be have class levels in the Sensate PrC in one of Dragon's Planescape features, which would make 'sense' (pardon moi for the horrible pun) as sensates value gleaning information of all types.  As for the specific outsider used as a base, either a Fallen Trumpet Archon (being a former herald would relate even more to the knowledge/info. theme) or an Eladrin (perhaps more sense as a chaotic outsider).  If this idea interests you, I'd be happy to stat something up.

NPC II-poor, poor Agar
Well, you're dealing with Worms right?  Who would know better than a Vermin Lord, ala BoVD?  Maybe with some levels in Cancer Mage, depending on how powerful he is.  Maybe he's a former student or even colleague of Hagiok?  That brings to mind, will/have the DoD spoke to Hagiok?  Maybe Teliez has cured him of his insanity?  Anyways, back to the Vermin Lord, perhaps throw on an undead template such as lich to give him more credibility.  But above all, make sure he has tons of insects/vermin creeping around and about him (or through him if he's a lich).  Maybe a Son of Kyuss cohort, if you feel particularly sadistic towards the poor alienist.  Again, I'd be happy to stat this charming fellow up if the idea interests you.

Edit-On the more "goody two shoes" side, a Loremaster would be pretty standard.  I'll try and come up with a neat twist on this though, and get back to you.


----------



## arwink

Borrow the notion of akashinc nodes from arcana evolved, using either an akashic master or a monk who has spent his life learning to collect ambient thoughts and memories from the air. He can dive into the collective cultural memory of all living life on the planet, searching for instances where the worms first game to light.

If the fey are immortal in your world, then maybe a twisted mutant of a fey creature that served as the worms envoi to the fey court. A slimey, mangled satyr covered in ooze, crazed after millenia without contact with his masters and universally reviled by all other races. He's still hunted by several powerful fey creatures (Lehsay from the epic handbook) for some of his deeds in the past, so the challenge is in finding him and then keeping him alive while you unravel his mad ramblings. 

Even alien cratures such as the brain collectors fear something, and one of the greatest fears the neh-thalggu have is the comic of the worms. For centuries they have been compiling worm-lore, feeding one of their number the brains of sages and scholars (including, possibly, the elderly elf that originally warned the party) they kidnapped from the prime plane. Keeping said brain collector alive while absorbing so much knowledge is difficult, so it has been mutated to become an amorphous mass served by dozens of smaller lackys. It has several centuries of brilliant minds at its disposal, but the neh-thalggu may not wish to share their information.

The aranea (arcane spider-folk from the MM) have had their own method of preserving the knowledge of their wisest - they spun a giant web that sustains the consciousness after death. If you picture the average breeding room from an alien's room, replace the hardened mucous with webs, and have the skulls of a hundred aranea visible, you have the visual I'm working with. Then just have the PC's interact with a hundred whispering voices as a council of ancient aranea debate whether or not to help them (this comes from an upcoming CGW project).

The tomb of frozen dreams, from the Book of Eldritch Might III, could potentially have several peices of information. 

If the worms are more powerful than the gods, then the possibility exists that some of the dead gods may still know of them. Dealing with the demi-urge of a deity that stood against the worms when they first moved against the world could be fruitful, especially if it's imcomplete memory can only be restored by gathering the together its scattered divine energy from the far corners of the world. A variety of divinely infused creatures or magic items merged with goddessence would need to be defeated and destroyed. If you're not done twisting the knife, you could even make it an evil god whose actions in opposing the worms were remarkably similar to Imbrandila's - did she know something that the other gods didn't? Where the actions that led to her death motivated by something far more noble (or self-preserving) than anyone suspected?


----------



## Spatzimaus

Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> I was thinking of an outsider who's spent a longgg time on Spira, perhaps a fallen angel if you want to make roleplaying interactions more interesting




Fallen Angels, redeemed Fiends... it's all been done.  Now, rotate 90 degrees...  A chaotic Modron?  A lawful Slaad?  Those can be a LOT more fun.

You could combine some of these together... make *Kermit*, the ghost of a neutral Slaad Psychic Warrior who was trapped while shifted to the prime during the mage wars, thousands of years ago.  After dying, he met many of the powerful undead of the day, and used his autohypnosis skill to remember all sorts of random things.

(It's not easy, being Green...)


----------



## justa goblin

*idea for npc*

Let's call them the Brotherhood of the Eternal Soul or some such.  A group of good monks on the eternal path to perfection, blah, blah, blah.  The have a method of passing on their souls to younger members when they die allowing them to walk the path eternally.  Well their high great leader recently passed his soul, unfoirtunately his passing coincided with Imbridalara's death.  The ritual used to pass on the soul left this young child completely defenceless against tidal wave of souls escaping Imbraladara's prison.

Now you have a young child (10 ish) inhabited by who knows what.  Put the big high leader in their with all of his memories but there could also be a being from before time with his memories and all kinds of assorted odds and ends.  For the kicker throw in some big baddie that managed to dominate all of the other souls that is using the Brotherhood for some nefarious plot.  However he has access to the Leader monk's memories so he can pass all of the tests posed by the Brotherhood.  If you are feeling particularly nasty have the new god of the undead searching for this being to bring it back.  Of course bringing it back destroys the other souls in the body and the information along with it.

So we have a brotherhood of good monks doing the work of an young child possesd by an evil overlord along with the souls of thousands of trapped beings, including something that knows about the worms, on the run from a god.  As a plus if Eve tries to poke around in his head he has a built in defense of huge resevoir of minds to give her.  She could wander around for years and never find anything.


----------



## Lela

Eve could very well be able to use the memory crystals (aka Akashic Nodes).  Of course, she wouldn't know if the person who recorded it was telling the truth.


----------



## Zaruthustran

How about some good old time travel?

You could have the PCs go back themselves, or project their consciousness back in time (Quantum Leap style) and inhabit the bodies of native creatures. That'd be a change of pace, and give the players a low-level break.

Or if magic works like electromagnetic radiation, you could have the players travel to a far-off world and then use Divination magic--the results would be from X number of years ago with X being how many magicyears they are from the world. This may be too sciencey/spelljammery, though.

-z


----------



## GreyShadow

Is there still a spell that allows you to talk to stone? If so, find an ancient rock and talk with it... in fact, I'd probably use the shield that someone carries as that ancient rock.


----------



## Kaodi

*Hmmm...*

Since I know you have the MM2, so how about a half-earth elemental/half-elder psurlon psion (seer)... It would combine many of the ideas presented so far into a single whole. Perhaps this character seeks knowledge from psychic impressions left upon the earth itself...
Now, this psurlon would probably be the Defenders best source of information on the Worms. The problem is, they have to gather information from two or three scholars just to find out he/she exists.

Perhaps, back in the day, Psurlons existed during the time of the Worms, or were created by the Worms, or something to that effect. In order to escape destruction, they fled to the elemental plane of earth, which seemed to them to be the most natural haven, and eventually became creatures of that plane. Since the awakening of the remaining worms, several psurlons who possessed knowledge passes down at that time have decided to try and fill the gaps in their records, as well as any information on their " cousins " current activities. Only a few people have had contact with these mysterious creatures since their arrival, as the other affairs of the world don't really concern them.

Another idea is a young woman, 19-22 years of age, who is almost completely insane, except that she has an almost god-like ability to absorb and retain information. The girl who knows everything, except why she knows everything of course (maybe her almost god-like ability isn't almost at all). Other than that, she probably has some really crazy quirks, like talking about herself in the third person, constantly telling the Defenders about themselves, talking about theoretical knowledge about concepts that won't otherwise exist for thousands of years, you name it. She'll probably be frustrated about the lack of information she has been able to find on the Worms, and will then proceed to talk about them making references to texts and lectures shes never seen or heard.

I'll try to come up with some more later today.

Uh, before I go, there is also the awakened fish who became interested in the topic because worms are his favourite delicacy.


----------



## Steverooo

*Mysteries of the Worm:*

_Like layers of an onion, so are the Days of Our Tears!..._

There are several good sources of info, for this:

Go Cthonic with it (your wife will LOVE you)!  De Vermis Mysterious, being translated, is "Mysteries of the Worm".  Any decent library of Cthulhu will have a copy (just ask Cthulhu's Librarian)!  It was also referenced at the beginning of Hellboy, and is oft-mentioned by the ancient Seer Luveh-Keraph, Priest of Cryptic Bast.  Surely the DoD picked up a copy in Nacreous.  They could learn much of the Worms, therein, but it is similar to the Necronomicon, in that it drives characters of less than 12th level insane, and is sanity-blighting for most readers (See the 1e Deities and Demigods, under the Cthulhu mythos - have you found the Elder Sign?)

This is good for many reasons, as Elder (& Co.) have always reminded me of Lovecraft's Cthonians, burrowing through the earth, gnawing it for some, unknown, reason...  They can cause earthquakes, and lay rock-like eggs which eventually hatch diminutive babies.

Perhaps they gnaw the world to change its orbit, to bring it under the right stars...  Or, perhaps they gnaw it to cause it to break up, destroying all other life on the planet.  Lovecraft's Dholes seem to like dead worlds...

Another source for info is the mind of our favorite Mad Monk, Rasputin Stone-Bear!  That Worm was in his head for a looooooonnnggg time!...  Surely it must have left SOME refuse!  With his self-discipline, and the aid of a powerful Psychic, perhaps they could gain some useful clues, like a Ranger looking at critter scat...  

And those Worms have been up to something...  We don't know what, yet, but we do know that they've BOTH been up to more than just lying still...  Wandering somewhere in the Underdark, madder than a hatter (who go mad because mercury was used to stiffen hat-brims, just in case you didn't know, this slowly poisoning them) is a witlessly-scared Deep Gnome, with the misfortune to have run into one of them!...  He can't tell you much (even after the application of a _Heal_ spell cast especially for the purpose of curing madness, and stopping his jibbering), but what he CAN tell the DoD is where one of them was, a short time ago (and any other info he saw, in his last, brief flashes of sanity, which he probably doesn't understand the signifigance of...  Say!  Didn't Priggle once say something about a Deep Gnome missing from his village?)

What about the force of creation, for Spira?  The gods entered after hearing the death-throes of the last living creature...  Who made them?  Is he/she/it dead?  If not, he/she/it was a witness to the whole thing.  Also, there must have been a god of death, there, too...  Did he/she/it die?  (That is not dead which can eternal lie; and with strange aeons, even Death may die...)  And the force of Entropy?  Surely it has been around, all that time... if it can be communicated with... (see below).

Any form of Immortals are also likely candidates.  Also, the gods of Spira locked the Worms away, so they should have plenty of knowledge about them (at least the ones already "seated", or ascended, before that time).  Perhaps not Calphas, Aeos, nor Galanna, but somebody...

Also, I find it odd that Imbindarla's portfolio hasn't been filled...  Sure, the D(a/o)rk Hunger swiped the Undead portion, but the crawling things?...  That obviously went somewhere ELSE!  (Now I wonder who would be interested in THAT?)!!  Does the phrase "The Crawling Chaos" ring any bells?  Maybe... a WORM?!?   

Also, see the 1e Melnibonean Mythos, and look up the Vulture-Lions...  These were the "Creatures of Matik", who was an ancient Melnibonean Sorcerer-King.  He went to Limbo, and formed them directly out of Chaos, itself.  Anyone of noble Melnibonean blood is supposed to be able to command them...  Where is Eve a Princess from, again?  Does she speak High Melnibonean?  If so, she could probably wander into Limbo (now that the Slaadi are all invading Mechanus), and find some of Matik's Creatures to question...  Since Melnibone' was in the world that came before, perhaps the Creatures of Matik, who were formed there, know somewhat of the Worms that Arioch unleashed in the battles that destroyed it...

Then there are the dead gods...  Ever read Godstalk, or A Rage of Rathorns?  The city in the first novel had a "Feast of Dead Gods", yearly, in which dead gods got to come back, for one night.  Elric also ran into Darnizhan, one of the dead gods, who was still quite capable, despite his medical condition...  Maybe the DoD could find one of these sorts, for better or worse?  (Where's Nolin's high Diplomacy, when you need it?)  

Of course, the Necronomicon, the "Book of Dead Names", or "Book of the Names of the Dead" will probably have to be consulted, extensively...  That's not a good thing!  It's a good thing that (most of?) the DoD are above 12th level, eh?  

So, see anything you like, yet?


----------



## Thornir Alekeg

Not sure if this idea is completely feasible, some of the backstory might contradict Mara or Malachite's player or the church of Aeos' background/history...

In a village lives a former priestess of Aeos.  Years ago, the priestess accompanied a group of heroes searching for [insert something appropriate here] into a set of caverns not far from where she now resides.  While in the caverns, there as a collapse that sealed the heroes into the caverns and killed all but the priestess.  Trapped without light, the priestess wandered aimlessly trying to find a way out.  Whenever she became exhausted and lay her head upon the rocks of the cavern to sleep, she began to hear strange rumblings and whisperings in her mind; unknowingly she could "hear" some of the surface thoughts of the Worms.  Weeks later, dehydrated, emaciated and not completely sane, she found her way out of the caverns.  After all her time in the darkness, the light of the sun now burns her eyes, but she fears the darkness even more.  She spends her days in village tavern sitting in a corner that is protected from the sunlight, but surrounded by candles to ward off the dark.  She drinks most of the day so that when night falls, she can drop into a drunken sleep.  Sometimes she has passes out in the streets while walking home.  On those nights, with her head once again lying upon the earth, she can hear the deep rumblings of the worms.  The locals fear touching her to help her home when this happens as she tends to talk strange words, full of hatred and darkness.


----------



## Anti-Sean

An awakened butterfly swarm that has heard a near infinite amount of secrets whispered into the wind over time. (Or perhaps a powerful psion used True Mind Switch, and this is its current body) The swarm must engulf anyone it wishes to communicate with (Poor Agar!) Is it a benign sage, or is it an Eeeeevil butterfly swarm?

An advanced kraken with Druid/Warlock gestalt levels and an army of sahuagin worshippers. or sahuagin enemies... The sea holds many secrets.

An ancient temple full of Monk/Bard/Loremasters lost all of their historical texts ages ago in a great fire. Since then, they have tattooed all of the information they receive onto the bodies of the acolytes. But how do they store and retrieve that information after a monk dies? Is there a gigantic mausoleum that needs to be searched through? Do they animate their dead? Gather Information checks at this temple are not for the prude or squeamish 

A homonculus who mysteriously survived its masters death and has continued its research over the years, or a group of gargoyles who started reading the ancient tomes in their tower out of boredom, and began research of their own after it sparked their interest.

As far as Ioun's empire goes, the orbiting stones reminded me of valences from high school chemistry classes ages ago. I was all excited about how nice Valencia would sound as the name of his empire, until I remembered the city/region of Spain with the same name... drat!


----------



## ConnorSB

So the gods arrived upon hearing the scream of the last living thing that the worms killed, right? Why not make the party have to contact that individual- the last living thing that died might have some interesting things to say about how it all went down. This contact of course smacks of impossibility as that creature was not just prehistoric, but effectively pre-divine.

Contact with such a being would require forces so primal that comprenhending them is nigh-impossible, as they are forces that in as sense came before the_ idea_ of comprension. Sanity checks?

That said, one sort of Meta way you could get across how impossibly old this being is is to use not 3.5 edition rules, not 3rd or 2nd or 1st edition rules, but perhaps Chainmail (Gygax's origional wargame, not the new collectable WotC thing) rules to play out the scenario.

An NPC so old he's not even from the same game!


----------



## Raging Epistaxis

Some cool ideas so far!

All I can come up with is something along the lines of the Lost Library of Alexandria - A huge repository of ancient knowledge that was destroyed/lost in eons past.  It would be difficult to discover the location of it, then challenges to overcome in finding the information - different languages, guardians, method of storage etc.

For some reason I keep having the image of the Knight of the Cruciform Sword from Indiana Jones and the last crusade - he's been guarding the resting place of the Grail for how many hundreds of years, waiting for his replacement.  The good guys get there at the same time/just before the bad guys, there is a test to overcome, etc etc.

When I first saw your request for ideas a day or two ago I thought these might be worthy basis for ideas, but they are far outclassed by other suggestions here.  still, it's what comes to mind.

R E


----------



## Knight Otu

Seule said:
			
		

> Now, being mostly immobile, ...



If a fly speed of 180 ft (perfect), along with five rounds of haste per day, and the caster ability of an at least 21th level character is "mostly immobile", I don't want to see what a truly mobile character is capable of. 

Stone Tell still exists, a level 6 Druid spell.
Hmm, is the seal that keeps the worms at bay stone? I can't remember...


----------



## carpedavid

Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> Or maybe it's continually reborn like Budha.




Or a phoenix. *cough*


----------



## Kaodi

*More Ideas*

The half-fiend son of a noblewoman of Corsai is a scholar of ancient history and pre-history. His father, a unique devil, is the guardian of a cache of artifacts in Baator (mostly the archaeological kind, but maybe one or two of the magical kind as well) from before the Worms destroyed everything. The half-fiend has been denied his human birthrights be the church of Aeos and the government of Corsai, but the father wants these things returned to him as  the price of a *chance* to negotiate entry into the vault. The sons knowledge is not insignificant though, and he might be persuaded to sell his knowledge for a different price, such as the Defenders helping him convince the daughter of a prominent government figure to marry him. Despite his parentage and appearance, he isn't really any more evil than your average unscupulous merchant or aristocrat. The father however, is thoroughly evil and sinister.

And then there is the guy who unknowingly swiped an important book from a massive library, and has it at his own residence in a rougher section of a city, where it could be stolen.

And how about a monk/sorcerer vampire that was the previous beneficiary of Elder's guidance...

And also, perhaps the younger sister of an elven queen came across some piecemeal information in the days of her youth, when she was forced to study history thoroughly in preparation of the chance she might one day be needed to ascend the throne.


----------



## Kaodi

*And Most Obscure Of All*

Could there possibly be a third worm, the runt of the original group, but most intelligent of them all, that managed to escape notice of even the gods? This would sort of be a huge " Things You Assumed To Be True But Are Not " kind of surprise...

This one must have perceived its purpose differently from the others to begin with, its senses reaching out to divine certain events  and possibilities that would lead to a greater fulfillment of its primal purpose than all out destuction and chaos every moment of its existence. Maybe forseeing that the gods would win, it engineered some of the events that lead up to its stronger brethren, Elder and the other Worm, to being sealed away rather than  destroyed like the others...


----------



## Seule

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> If a fly speed of 180 ft (perfect), along with five rounds of haste per day, and the caster ability of an at least 21th level character is "mostly immobile", I don't want to see what a truly mobile character is capable of.




Okay, so I should have looked up the creature before posting.  

Hmm, the Worms predate the gods.  Do they predate Demons and Devils?  Maybe some of those have useful information.  Elementals also have no specific lifespan.  Heck, there might well be some really old fey that would have info, I suggest the Epic Level Handbook is full of ancient creatures.  
Then again, there's that PrC for mind-flayers in Savage Species (IIRC) that allows them to absorb knowledge from victims.  Perhaps one of those got to some sage, and the PCs now have to negotiate with an abomination?  Or maybe a Neh-Thalggu from (again) ELH.
Then, as well, there's the Worms themselves, presumably trying to squash knowledge of their own past.  They might well use agents (like they used Stone Bear), perhaps a Vermiurge or a Worm that Walks (ELH again) would do?  I'd really like to see a Worm that Walks using the Engulf attack on Agar (or maybe Cruciel).  I suspect he'd have nightmares for years.

...why do I seem to have one specific book on the brain?  Oh well.

I do strongly suggest that at least one source of information they find have deliberate misinformation.  It's no fun unless the PCs realize at the last minute that things are going horribly wrong.  "What, you mean common salt won't kill it on contact?  Oh noes!"

  --Seule


----------



## Kaodi

Seule said:
			
		

> I do strongly suggest that at least one source of information they find have deliberate misinformation.  It's no fun unless the PCs realize at the last minute that things are going horribly wrong.  "What, you mean common salt won't kill it on contact?  Oh noes!"
> 
> --Seule




A blind man that tells them water is poisonous to the Worms?


----------



## Graywolf-ELM

Lot's of good ideas here.  These may have aspects of previous posts in them.

- Worm Food - What about the current worms, that are obviously descended from the Ancient "Worms" - Purple Worms (An ancient, creature of Legend, Elder, Abyssal , Awakened, advanced, Lich even<your templates may vary>) Wurm.  Who has possibly made recent contact with the "Worms" again, or not.  This ancient creature has many wurm spawn as servitors and guardians, but could be convinced to communicate.

- Extra-planar creatures of advanced age might have data on the "Worms."  Possible contact with the Queen of the Gith, or whoever has supplanted her, if things have gone that far in your game setting.

- Nature and some of its' aspects as some have mentioned.  Was nature undead at the time, and the coming of the gods brought new life to the earth mother(or father).  She/He would have some memory of pre-god times with the "Worms"

- Something akin to the "Watcher" (tm) from comic book fame, who always watches, but is never allowed to interfere.  Hard to get any information out of him, if at all possible.

- The earth Oracle that someone else mentioned, that allowed for exit from the Dwarven vaults, in exchange for a commitment to free her sister trapped in the Ice of the sacred pool at the Kuo Toa city.  She might have some knowledge.  Would elementals and such be considered alive, to have been killed by the "Worms"?


----------



## Elocin

Here are a couple of ideas that might work out for you...

They could seek out some gnome inventor that makes these little devices that run on wheels of some kind, possibly a new form called - rubber.  Then there are these other mechanical devices that can, say remotely, drive the previous devices around on the desert floor.  When the "Wurms" sense the trem....err, vibrations from deep within the ground and come up to investigate, possibly even eating these devices.  The wizards of the group could detonate their Delayed Blast fireballs, killing the creatures.

or 

They could find some scrap of paper that has a detailed picture of one of the wurms on it, but nothing else.  When they try and discover where this piece of parchment came from they discover it came from one of the oldest libraries of the Modron’s.  Then upon finding said library and the reference they discover that they have to actually talk to the Modron librarian.

I dunno, these are just some thoughts that came to mind.

Then again, you might have to run for your life once your players realize what is going on.


----------



## The_Warlock

I noticed Seule already mentioned the Worm that Walks - which I think has a lot of potential. Especially if you work him as an ally with a hidden agenda. Have him actually be a previous agent of Elder, a powerful wizard who willingly agreed to aid elder's plans in exchange for immortality through his worm form. He may actually have been the one who figured out how to allow Elder to access the dreams of others and project himself out of the great prison (and eventually into a certain shaman's head). Except now, he wants out, he finds himself bound to do Elder's wishes in some fashion, and wants his freedom. That doesn't make him a nice walking verminoid, but he's certainly willing to play the PCs for what he wants. He's likely learned about a ritual which will allow Elder to be bound somehow, but he can't do it alone, and has changed it in his millenia of servitude to allow him to BECOME Elder, essentially possessing the Great Worm's body, and thus with a different true name, no longer affectable by the same ritual. 

Also, the prehistory describes the world as a charnel house of destruction with the worms destroying everything - were there seas or oceans? Perhaps there is a deep sea creature or race who survived the worms attentions by being in the seas...or perhaps Krakens are the most intelligent offspring of the elder worms, having sought the water to escape the binding nature of stone that the gods used against the worms.

Taking another somewhat Cthulhu-ish reference...what if they find that the tremors of Elder moving through the earth cause nightmares? These nightmare's have a metaphysical connection to Elder's greater plans, but only when interpreted through the eyes of the innocent, those not jaded by their own corruption. Thus begins a quest to find children of every race who have felt the terror of the earth, and all of the hints and clues come through the descriptive capabilities of 6 to 10 year olds. 

When the gods came forth to bind the worms, did they bring with them an angelic host? Perhaps the leader of that host under the direction of the gods brought the fight to the worms while the gods worked at the binding. Though victorious, the general of the angels was corrupted by the blood of the worms, and slowly turned from righteousness and betrayed the gods, and was cast down, either to the world, or the hells, for his transgressions. Immortal, his eternal punishment is remembering the light, or perhaps madness, with only moments of lucidity, or perhaps he has become a demon lord who now lusts after souls. Wouldn't he be an interesting person to bargin with for firsthand information about the worms.

That's all I have today. Can't wait to here more in the story hours. You are vicious, in a grand and complimentary way...


----------



## Lela

Why am I getting a vision of a few purple worms coming up through the floor while they're in council with Ioun?

And can I see the actual Champion granted powers you built up for Crucial? The full progression, not just the first ones (before she became champ of old V).


----------



## Ashy

The question I keep asking myself is why?

Why, way back in pre-history, were the worms destroying everything?  Perhaps the worms are ****THE**** cosmic agents of destruction?  Perhaps they are the anthesis of creation itself?  Perhaps it was determined that Spira needed to meet its end and they were merely doing what they had always done, moving through the void until, drawn by the metaphysical "scent" of a bloated, dying world, they moved in for the "kill"?  Perhaps that is why they are now so angry and why they have remained bound to Spira for so long - they cannot move on until they have fufilled their purpose, which is to return the entire planet to the void of nothingness from whence it came?

If this is the case, then there are many ways to learn more about the worms (many of them have been listed previously), but you have to have, IMHO, a primal, defining reason for why the worms where doing what they were doing to begin with.  Perhaps, deep within the Deep Ethereal Plane (the plane of proto-creation, remember), there is a place where everything that was, is, or will be created initially begins to form as a tiny drop of proto-matter (The Womb of Creation, perhaps?).  If so, maybe this place contains such fundamental secrets of every thing (living, non-living, dead, animate, or inanimate) that merely being there grants one complete knowledge about that thing (in this case, the worms).  However, the only problem is that the closer you come to the Womb, the more your very existence is reduced to its *fundamental and primal parts* - basilly to begin to dissolve into that which makes you up.  

Might be a pretty nifty chanllenge for a group of high-level characters to surmount, eh?  I can just hear it now:

Malachite: "Ok, so all we have to go is travel through the Ethereal, to this "Womb", and remain inside long enough to learn everything about the worms, right?"

Agar: "Right."

Malachite: "Sounds easy enough - what's the catch?"

Agar: "Well, we have to figure out a way to keep our bodies and souls from dissolving into nothingness while we are there..."

Malachite (clucks tongue): "Uh-huh..."



I live to serve, O Great Three-legged One!


----------



## Piratecat

Some spectacular ideas here!  Of course, there's also some I can't use because they mirror things I've already done. (Example: I recently had a NPC based on the worm-that-walks template, although I may be able to work it back in again without people realizing it's the same basic monster.)

I'll do some thinking about my pre-history and give you folks some more details.


----------



## Kugar

PC,
 What if Spira were sentenced to die?  What if there was (or maybe still is) something or someone so dangerous to the rest of creation that it was deemed prudent to destroy it by other pantheons or beings more supreme than the current gods.  Could Imbindarla been the only god not rebelling against a direct order from an "overgod"?  The worms might view Aeos and crew as criminals and tainted.  Perhaps there is an ancient file in some cabinet tucked in some ancient hidey-hole in Sigil that used to belong to the Fraternal Order that lists "All natives of Spira must die a horrible, excruciating, soul-devouring death" as a fundamental law of creation.  What secrets could be buried in the world that would make the judgment just? 

       What if Imbindarla thought she found a way to control the worms?  That would explain her part in the comet cycle.  Could she have secretly taken on a "god of unknowable secrets" portfolio (which of course no one knew about).  What if the bargain for destroying the worms were restoring Imbindarla's powers to one of her proxies.  Maybe her death was a gambit, and her followers are moving the final pieces into checkmate.

   What if something the worms have already eaten has survived inside the worms for all these years.  Could the answers they need be in the gullet of the beasts?   Are the PCs strong enough to survive the journey to find out?

   There has to be at least one leader who has a skilled seer as an advisor and wants to help.  Maybe he is sleazy, and has no real knowledge or ability to help but bluffs his way in negotiations (there is this ancient library my people know about...),  is overzealous (what do you mean we are not going after them - I just mobilized my armies.  Who's going to feed them? or Oh, I just sent a my favorite group of adventurers after the worms), or opportunistic (Mobilizing the armies of Gaunt?  You don't say!)

   If Elder was talking to StoneBear, maybe there is someone the other worm was using.

   Wouldn't it be funny if one of the members of Eversink's ruling council up and vanished all sneaky and hurriedly like with lots of bloodshed.  I wonder how the negotiations would go if they wanted to ask the DoD for a favor.

   I can also see a croc-hunter type of world devouring worm expert.  .
"Crickey!  This is one of the largest world-devouring worms I've ever seen.  Let's take a closer look."
   "See while most worms have no teeth, this one has some sharp fangs that could take your arm right off."  Wham!  Spurt, Spurt.  "See just like that."
   "Normally you would get a friend to help put that limb back on, but as you can see I am in it's soul-eating gullet.  If you look real closely you can even see the half digested remains of all the other people the worm has recently swallowed.  Wait, it's getting dark in here.  Either I just failed a will save or I'm fainting from loss of blood.  Either way I'll see you next we....'

     Kugar


----------



## ConnorSB

Kugar said:
			
		

> "Crickey!  This is one of the largest world-devouring worms I've ever seen.  Let's take a closer look."




Sigworthy, if it wasn't so spoilerlaiden...


----------



## Kaodi

*Hmmm...*

Six thousand years ago, in one of the great forests of Spira, a planar rift opened that connected that world with a dark and sinister deadwood of the Abyss. Many fell demons stumbled across this portal and ventured through, and a war that lasted over ten years began between the demons and the protectors of the forest, the druids, their ranger companions and many of the forests denizens. 
In time, the natives of Spira were able to drive back and slay the demons, though many of their number were slain. A young elven druidess who had taken the reins of leadership from the previous elder druid, slain in a climactic battle with a balor, managed to close the rift, but while her defenses were down, the last of the demons, a deadly, poisonous fiendish spider, injected its lethal venom into her system. 
The closing ritual complete, the druidess slew the spider demon, but in order to save herself she had to the last of her spells to transform herself into a huge tree. For many years in this form, she remained sickly, but with the tender care of her comrades she eventually became well again.
Centuries past, and the elf tree grew and grew, surpassing all of the other trees in the forest in size and beauty, and though she could no longer move her limbs as she once did, the druidess' understanding of nature grew immensely as well. As her giant roots burrowed deep into the earth, she gained an awesome awareness of all that happened on and under the ground.
Fifteen hundred years ago, the elf tree wearied of the constant flow of knowledge from Spira, and her consciousness entered a deep slumber, so she no longer communicated telepathically with the creatures of the wood. However, it had been discovered many years ago that the fruit bourne by the elf tree granted a small and brief glimpse of the awareness the druidess knew, but to eat one the fruit could mean death for the foolish, as the venom of the demon spider lives on in the juices.


----------



## Spatzimaus

Kaodi said:
			
		

> However, it had been discovered many years ago that the fruit bourne by the elf tree granted a small and brief glimpse of the awareness the druidess knew, but to eat one the fruit could mean death for the foolish, as the venom of the demon spider lives on in the juices.




...and each year, the tree grew only two fruit: a red fruit, that bestowed the knowledge, and a white fruit, full of the poison.  The tree is located in the ruins of the druidic temple, now occupied by bugbears, goblins, kobolds, rats, and a small white dragon.  The small town nearby negotiates for the fruits each year, but recently the supply stopped...

Seriously, how funny would it be to have the Defenders of Daybreak have to go through the Sunless Citadel?  Keep the levels of the enemies the same.  Sure, it won't take them more than ten minutes to beat, so it's basically a throwaway joke.  But, if they kill helpless enemies, that'd be alignment violations for some of them, and they'd have to be very careful not to use what they know about the adventure.


----------



## Kaodi

*Uh...*



			
				Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> ...and each year, the tree grew only two fruit: a red fruit, that bestowed the knowledge, and a white fruit, full of the poison.  The tree is located in the ruins of the druidic temple, now occupied by bugbears, goblins, kobolds, rats, and a small white dragon.  The small town nearby negotiates for the fruits each year, but recently the supply stopped...
> 
> Seriously, how funny would it be to have the Defenders of Daybreak have to go through the Sunless Citadel?  Keep the levels of the enemies the same.  Sure, it won't take them more than ten minutes to beat, so it's basically a throwaway joke.  But, if they kill helpless enemies, that'd be alignment violations for some of them, and they'd have to be very careful not to use what they know about the adventure.




Not quite what I had in mind :\ . Putting the elf tree completely underground wouldn't work out, this thing is... awesome.

But to borrow from your post, perhaps only 1d4+6 fruit grow each year, and they are all poisonous, carrying a venom that can only be partially neutralized by spells like neutralize poison, as it is a powerful, cursed venom (spider demon was not your average, run of the mill bebelith or something like that). Only a few centuries after the elf tree fell asleep, the circle of druids and rangers that had protected it for so long was driven out by primitive gnoll shamans and their tribes. Only a lone defender remained, an elderly human male who used his powers of shapeshifting to hide from the invaders. When he died, his ghost remained to protect the elf tree from direct threats. 
The gnolls eventually discerned the secrets of the tree, and while their initial attempts to take the fruit were rebuffed, they eventually learned that they could appease the spirit of the old druid, allowing them to take one ripened fruit a year. They built a temple not far from the base of the tree, and the mightiest of their warriors and the wisest of their shamans were stationed here, to keep any others from the trees wealth.

Now, among the gnolls, their might be one high level adept, and a handful of mid level warriors, but the rest have only a few NPC class levels. They certainly wouldn't pose a substantial threat to the Defenders, even en masse. The ghost on the other hand, might take some convincing. Though it certainly isn't evil, it won't hesitate to fight should it feel the elf tree could be threatened in any manner.


----------



## Kaodi

*Really Weird Idea*

This is an idea that I just came up with while chatting in #dnd3e on Psionics, and I thought it might be terribly funny, and do-able, in light of the conversion of the Elder Brain.

A mindflayer paladin with the prestige class from Savage Species that lets you absorb the knowledge of your vict- err, doners.

A conversation between a companion and a mindflayer paladin that had just devoured the brain of a comrade might go something like this:

" You ate her brain! "

" The elf was going to die. My powers of healing were exhausted. "

" But - "

" Now, her knowledge, gained over hundreds of years, will help me defeat The Great Evil. "

" And what if I'm going to die? Will you eat my brain too? "

" ... Yes. "

Another chatter later proclaimed (in jest, I assume), that because I convinced him with the above conversation, from now on,  ALL of his paladins are going to eat brains.


----------



## Steverooo

Laying-on tentacles...


----------



## Lela

Remove Alzheimer's?


----------



## Piratecat

The paladin mindflayer is VERY funny.

How much do you guys want me to spill of my future plans? It's hard for me to give feedback on these ideas without revealing great big plot spoilers.


----------



## arwink

If I didn't want spoilers, I wouldn't be reading this thread in the first place.

If other folks don't want spoilers, then that sounds like a fine opportunity to use the board's spoiler tags


----------



## Plane Sailing

> *Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions*
> Clairsentience
> Level: Seer 2
> Display: Auditory and material
> Manifesting Time: 1 hour
> Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
> Area: Spread with a radius of 25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels, centered on you
> Duration: Concentration, up to 10 min./level
> Saving Throw: None
> Power Resistance: No
> Power Points: 3
> You gain historical vision in a given location. Rooms, streets, tunnels, and other discrete locations accumulate psychic impressions left by powerful emotions experienced in a given area. These impressions offer you a picture of the location’s past.
> The types of events most likely to leave psychic impressions are those that elicited strong emotions: battles and betrayals, marriages and murders, births and great pain, or any other event where one emotion dominates. Everyday occurrences leave no residue for a manifester to detect.
> The vision of the event is dreamlike and shadowy. You do not gain special knowledge of those involved in the vision, though you might be able to read large banners or other writing if they are in your language.
> Beginning with the most recent significant event at a location and working backward in time, you can sense one distinct event for every 10 minutes you maintain concentration, if any such events exist to be sensed. Your sensitivity extends into the past a maximum number of years equal to 100 x your manifester level.




Although the time limit would prevent Eve going back more than, what, 1900 years, perhaps there could be amplifiers sought out which would enable Eve (or someone else) to reach back further in time to get visions of what actually happened... So there would be a combination of mcGuffin hunt, and getting to the right location, and protecting Eve (or whoever) for the length of time needed to Sense that far back - arguably 10mins per 100 years concentration, I don't know how far back it happened.

Might be an interesting opportunity for adventuring to get some information alongside the NPCs.

Cheers


----------



## The_Warlock

I agree with arwink...

We are here to throw out wacky ideas, and hear about the vile and incredibly nasty creatures and events you intend to unleash on your hapless PCs. Spoiler away...I don't think it will impact the enjoyment of the story hour readers...


----------



## Piratecat

Okay then. Spoilers ahead, matey; ye've been warned.

[sblock]I have two* rough plotlines left to go in the campaign.  One I don't want to share with you yet, because it involves spoilers for stuff you don't yet know about but which I want to write up. The other, though. . .

One of my big problems is that I've built the worms and Elder up so much that I don't want him to go down in simple combat. I need something more interesting.

The rough plan is that for months the worms are nowhere to be seen, and cause no trouble. Why?  They've burrowed down to both the literal and metaphysical center of the world, and they've _bred_. Maybe they've given their own life for this, maybe not, but picture a giant flaming chasm that's filled with millions of pustulant eggs; I'm thinking of the same effect we got in the Matrix, when the camera pulls back and we see all the little people-pods being tended by machines.

When the eggs hatch (which will happen in a pre-determined time, regardless of what the PCs do), the worms will begin to eat out the world from the inside. Agar will start having rotten apple prophecies/visions. Bad omens will show up everywhere, but since the worms are effectively invisible to the Gods there won't be overt warnings. Then, as things start to go really bad, the clouds will fall out of the sky. I figure that ought to get peoples' attention.

In the superb Malhavoc book _Beyond Countless Doorways_ there's a neat ruined world that the PCs can literally reawaken and reforge. I want to do something similar, allowing the group to quest for something like the heart of the sun or the soul of Spira (they'll also need the item that made Halcyon into such a lawful creature -- I am waiting for this adventure with bated breath) that will allow them to rekindle the planet and burn away all the worms. This will make them the demiurge of the planet's rebirth, and burn away the last remnants of the womrs at the same time.

A little goofy? Maybe, and it needs refining. But the NPCs that the group will talk to can advise and help them towards a solution, and since they don't even guess that the worms can breed there's going to be some fun surprises ahead. 

Okay, kibitz and comment - adding improvements!  For instance, right now the only good way we know of to get to the metaphysical center of the world is to plummet there in agony after getting hit by Velendo's shield (a talisman of pure good). How would you get to the center of creation, in a way that didn't involve purely physical travel through the underdark?

* three, actually, but one involves the modrons -- so it probably won't become relevant.[/sblock]


----------



## thatdarncat

hmmmm I might have something for you, but it will have to wait until I get home... just leaving myself a note to check _Wizard's Holiday_ tonight.


----------



## RangerWickett

If it makes the PCs feel better, when the worm breeding becomes known, you can always console them that a lot of their enemies who got sent to the center of the earth became worm food. 

Unless, of course, you want to recur some villains.

Drama should happen amid drama, especially at a climax. How do the players get involved in reforging the world? Who's out to stop them? You could always go Final Fantasy and have the worms have alternate forms.

Ha ha! You have destroyed my worm skin, but now you shall face my true form!

How about the Modrons were marching to this celestial forge, so that they can be the workforce that rebuilds the world. Like the end of Hitchhiker's Guide.


----------



## Robbs

*Just Happy to Be Here*

First I have to say I just stumbled upon the whole ENworld thing a few weeks ago and started reading this thread as I am moving my group of heroes into higher level threats also. Then I got hooked on all the RBDM stuff and great story/monster ideas flowing. I've been trying since then to get up-to-friggin-date as I noticed the early posts were from years ago (but wanting to know the whole story before jumping in).
That being said, on to the matter at hand...While a bad image of 'Young Guns' automatically flashes to mind ("okay, everyone got their peyote?"), with things like this I like to require it to be personalized to each member of the party. So each character would need a different method of entry so to speak. Since your post will generate a bunch of good ideas (what seems to happen pretty often is that there are multiple exciting ideas and you end up having to pick one or meld a couple) and you could mix & match based upon the peculiar elements that resonate with each character. Don't know if your DMing schedule allows for this but it would also be a great way to run a series of single player adventures that culminates with them all meeting ("So, how'd *you *get here? Well, I had to convince a cabal of para-elemental shamans to transmute me & imbue my essence to gravitate towards the center. You know, the usual."). Since this sounds like it might not require a lot of combat you could achieve the transport part of the story arc through email (which would allow you to tailor this to your player's desires since some will be more into this concept than others-they get more email exchanges) which would also allow you to run everyone at the same time (which is usually the biggest downside to soloing your players, the time it takes to run each one sequentially instead of concurrently). The overall concept being that since it is a 'meta-physical' center it requires something core to each person's beliefs and consciousness.  Plus you get the benny of tailoring the hook to your player's desires (your heavy player dramaticists get what they want while your combat monster player gets what s/he wants!
Wait, I think I have this whole post thing backwards. Did I just post a way to make your job *more* complicated instead of *less *complicated? Sorry, still getting the hang of this! I promise to come up with *actual useful stuff* too!
Okay, in addition to the tongue-in-cheek para-elemental idea (and in keeping with the RBDM aspect of the strand) I think a natural transport path would have to involve one or more PCs placing themselves at the mercy of either a recurring evil, some fresh new evil (hot off the stove), or more generalized evil.  A quick one using some earlier posts could involve convincing an enclave of modified (thru PrC, templates, etc.) mindflayers to weave a psychic pathway that will lift the PC's minds and free them to 'find the center' (Let me see if I've got this straight, we strip ourselves of all magic 'cause it will disrupt the process, then lay down inside a circle of uber-illithids while they *all *focus their mental powers on us?  Right.  Well, OK when do we start!).  You get the conflict of good needing to work with evil, which always generates good party conflict, and the players have to work an angle to convince these creatures to go along with this and figure out some way to keep from getting screwed over in the process.
I also have an image of something involving the silver strand aspect of Astral travel, maybe having to shift astral then having to enchant the strand to act as a lifeline when the second shift to the 'center' occurs.
Anyway, a couple of ideas to poke holes in; but be gentle this is my first time...posting.


----------



## Spatzimaus

Again, I'll reiterate: EVIL!!!!  Okay, that's out of the way, on to the suggestions.  (And I could spoiler tag this whole thing, I suppose, but this entire thread is one giant spoiler, so why bother?)

That's a huge thing to spring on the players; I don't think it's enough to rely on direct visions (no matter how vague) for that one.  One thing you might use, based on a 3E Psion (Shaper) I had:

Long, long ago (say a few hundred years back), a seer foresaw the upcoming apocalypse, and attempted to divine more detail.  He went a bit too far, and it drove him mad.  He spent the rest of his (somewhat short) life wandering the wilderness in a daze, teleporting from region to region (and possibly even plane to plane) with no set pattern.  But, he retained just enough to know it was important to preserve this information, so he did so in the most permanent way he knew: he used spells like _Fabricate_ (or Stone Shape, or whatever) to turn random trees, rocks, etc. into statues that would tell the story of what was to come.  He was an excellent craftsman, so the level of detail on the statues went way beyond "disturbing".
Since he travelled all over the place, few people ever saw more than one or two of the statues, and in time they've weathered/grown/etc into unrecognizability (plus some were destroyed by people for purely aesthetic reasons... when some lunatic magically changes the tree in your yard into a giant worm statue, you'll use it for firewood).  Most of the smaller ones have been utterly destroyed, but in a few cases he carved scenes into mountains and such, and there much has still survived, especially the ones located in deserts.  As a result, no one alive has ever bothered trying to figure out what the statues were for, and they've just been written off as the disturbing artwork of a madman.
But, a diviner like Agar COULD use spells to see what the statues originally looked like, and piece together enough information to know what was coming.  A mage like Ioun might help for this, too, especially if it happened long enough ago that he had firsthand knowledge of the seer.  And all it takes to start the process is one person who realizes that Elder looked a lot like an old carving he saw.

I like the idea of the worms not surviving the process, if only because it removes the need for a big fight that the players shouldn't ever win.  On the other had, it removes the barrier that would keep them from trying to win by brute force, and the Elder-Stone Bear deserves more resolution.  So maybe it's the other worm that's sacrificed, but Elder lives on to guard the eggs.  Better yet: maybe both worms are still living, solely because the hatchlings will need a food source... so the moment they are born, the existing two die horribly.  This not only prevents the players from interfering pre-birth, it removes the need to fight Elder later.  (Or maybe only Elder's mate sacrifices herself that way, and he survives... it's adjustable.)

The "bad omens" are fun to come up with.  Tremors in the earth, Stone Bear hearing whispers of Elder's thoughts (and feeling the loss when he dies), seers start to go mad when confronted with the lack of a future... and some could be more metaphysical, like making healing magic suddenly less effective (as the heart of the world goes rotten), or plants animals start getting unexplainably sick.

Also, depending on how much warning you give the world, you could have all sorts of other fun.  Magical evacuations to the planes.  Looting raids from various planar races (what, they'll fight over Mechanus, but won't grab stuff from a world about to be destroyed?).  Doomsday cults.
Oh, and the Citadel of Kodali's Retreat (or whatever it was called) should show up in the sky above Spira.  It always orbits a dying world, right?  The players would realize what this meant, even if no one else did.


----------



## Piratecat

Welcome to the boards, Robbs! Lordy, it's cool when people de-lurk. Thank you.

(Note that unlike in Word, you'll want to place an extra carriage return between paragraphs; it makes long posts easier to read.)

I really like the idea of involving the enlightened elder brain. Some great possibilities there, and it'd be a shame to create such a fun NPC and then never have the PCs run into him again.  Good ideas!

Spatz, the concept of diviners going insane from a lack of future fills me with positive glee. Yoink. Ditto on Kodali's Retreat circling Spira.


----------



## Spatzimaus

Robbs said:
			
		

> So each character would need a different method of entry so to speak.




The fundamental problem with this approach is that it often comes across as extremely contrived.  That somehow there exist many different ways of doing something that no one has ever done before, and by some miracle none of the group are going to be left out... in a really small group it's not so bad, but when you're transporting a dozen characters/cohorts/mounts, it's a bit much.

As for how the DoD would do it?  The fundamental question is why CAN'T they do it.  There must be something about the center of the planet that protects it from the usual scry-teleport combo, some magical barrier to entry that only incredibly powerful beings can penetrate.  (Maybe one worm had to sacrifice itself to get them through the barrier on the way in, and the other will have to sacrifice to open the door for the hatchlings to get OUT... or maybe the barrier is the result of the first worm sacrificing itself, and the second will be eaten by the young.)
But, they've already met a certain earth spirit that's proven capable of transporting groups of people anywhere on the planet or even to other planes.  A spirit whose sister they rescued from Glubyal.  While she herself might not be able to get the DoD to the center of the planet, if her sisters helped she might be able to do something.


----------



## Greybar

I looked it up, so I figured other would want to.

Original reference re: Kodali's Retreat


> The group moves through oddly shaped gigantic chambers built to a titan’s scale, doing their best to avoid any other inhabitants of the Citadel. They see several human and tiefling Doomguard from Sigil, drawn to the fortress by its natural entropy, and they pass by a corkscrew-shaped hall that the pit fiend had said leads to a group of Fey. Soon the group finds a room shaped like an inverted ziggurat, empty, with each layer ten feet below the next. The Defenders claim this as their own, and begin to stash their supplies and settle in. Agar casts a permanent illusion to make it look a little more homey, and different people claim different sections of the huge chamber.
> 
> “Oh my,” says Arcade. “You’ll want to see this.” He’s standing down on the lowest level of the floor, a full 60’ below the main entrance. His face is bathed by a flickering light, dim and unsteady. As the others join him they also see what has entranced him. The wall here appears to be made out of glass or pure force, and it reveals the unparalleled sight of a world slowly being ripped apart. The Defenders look down from perhaps a mile or so in the air. From their vantage point, they see a land where titans - or Gods? - are running amuck, reshaping a land by ripping it apart, destroying a forest by raising a volcano. There is death down there, even if the people getting killed are too small to see.
> 
> “The Citadel always looks out on a world that is dying,” Agar says quietly. “I think that we’re at the end of the Outlands, and this is where worlds come to die, forced into entropy.”
> 
> Nolin shivers as a tremendous wave slaps down on a city below. “Let’s not visit.”


----------



## ConnorSB

All this talk of worms has me thinking of Dune, and specifically thier life-cycle (elucidated in later books). Essentially, a few of the ideas that you could steal from Dune are:

a) Wormsign- the obvious and creepy movement of a worm underneith ground. Hills buckle, sand moves, dust clouds puff up. Could make for a great warmup to a fight- you know the worm is there, you can see the towns its tunnelling has destroyed, but WHERE IS IT?

b) Worm-Birth byproducts. Some sort of psychotic fluid might be the byproduct of the birth of all those worms. It might be gooey concentrated evil, but it might also contain creepy memories or whatnot- perhaps agar must eat some of it, or be bathed in it, in order to obtain some sort of prophetic knowledge.

c) Worm-touched people. Perhaps worms when they are born are amorphous and gooey, and at such a stange particularly disturbed people are able to incorporate the worms into thier own body, essentially donning a worm-skin that as the worm grows slowly corrupts their flesh and mind (even more so than it alreay was). Imagine multiple villians that the players have banished to the center of the earth returning infused with some sort of evil worm-touched template, making them stronger, more powerful, etc.

And in an unrelated note, maybe you could incorporate hooks into something somewhere. What better way to catch a worm but with a hook?


----------



## Kaodi

*Radical Idea?*

Well, I was just sitting here, pondering over things when inspiration struck yet again. 

So? You want to find the soul of Spira, eh? Well, there is a small problem. You see, Elder, he uh... ate it. Oh, don't worry, being devoured by a primal incarnation of entropy and destruction isn't *quite* enough to do the trick. The thing is still there! The problem is though, it isn't that easy to get it out. Not like you can just give the bugger the Heimlich manouever and it'll pop right out, right? Or maybe you can...

The thing is, if you could someone infiltrate that despicable goon, you could theoretically get to the soul of Spira. The question is: What is the soul of Spira? I'm not really sure that I can describe it to you fully, but part of the answer could be interpreted as it being the memory of all that has gone on on this planet. No one knows what Spira was like when the worms came, right? Wrong, my friend! The worms themselves still remember, and through this memory you can enter the soul of the world itself. 

Be warned though, my friends, for this is no simple task. If the worm who holds the soul of Spira is slain while he still holds it in his belly, the world will crumble, and everything and everyone dies, in an instant. No coming back. However, as terrible as fighting that mighty beast may seem, the soul is far more perilous to your own. Within, you may find yourselves reliving the memory of Spira, the one from before the worms came. What you will see, I cannot tell you, for that knowledge is unfathomable to me, but I do believe that here you will find the secret to freeing the soul of Spira, and perhaps destroying the worm in the process! 

Please don't forget though, that there is still going to be one left!


----------



## CrusadeDave

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Okay then. Spoilers ahead, matey; ye've been warned.
> 
> [sblock] For instance, right now the only good way we know of to get to the metaphysical center of the world is to plummet there in agony after getting hit by Velendo's shield (a talisman of pure good). How would you get to the center of creation, in a way that didn't involve purely physical travel through the underdark?
> 
> [/sblock]





Well...

[sblock]What if you worked with that mechanic. The way to get there is to be hit with a Talisman of Pure Good, or Evil. In fact, down there, is everyone who every HAS been hit with said Talisman.

Imagine a couple of BBEGs who thought they were close to World Domination being hit the Talisman of Pure Good. Plummeting down to the center of world, they are startled to find a small society of 2 World Devouring Worms, asking them to be vessels for the ultimate revenge on the planet.
[/sblock]

This allows you to bring back any ancient villain of your planet you want, either in Worm form, or humanoid/outsider form. Sort of like the old Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Arcade, Simpsons, or X-Men games, where before you faced Shredder/Mr. Burns/Magneto you had to defeat Beebop+Rocksteady+Krang/Sideshow Bob+Smithers+the Mafia/Brotherhood of Evil Mutants and Nimrod all over again, but this time all at once.


----------



## The_Warlock

Well, as a blatant steal from an old module...What about the Ingress in the Planescape module Dead Gods? They guard the pockets of the lowest layer of Pandemonium, and it's generally impossible to magically transport yourself reliably to the Agathion pockets since they are all so similar, and you are on a planar boundary. So there are the Ingress, a disgusting psychich flesh mound "mother" who excretes her children from the folds of her flesh to hunt for food for her. When someone who needs to find a pocket arrives, the children swarm forth, non-violently and wait for food. Once fed the wait expectantly for the traveler to think of the thing or place they want to find...at which point the mother roars, the children pig pile the traveler, who is dissolved into squamous liquid that flow through the cracks of the planes to the place he seeks. 

Now, alter that, and change the ingress to the original soul of Spira, corrupted by aeons of abuse and neglect by villains and high mages, forced to contain the eternal souls of wicked being sent to the deeps by talismans of pure good, ready for death, and spawning abberations to try and prevent tampering by so called nature gods so that she/it can finally die. The worms came, found her, and offered her the oblivion she seeks. And they were granted to the core, laying their eggs inside the very soul of the original world...

The DoD figure out there is a living soul to the world, and that it isn't any mere goddess of nature. They delve deeply, and finally find the outthrust which is the "face" of spira. She wants to end her miserable existence, and thus rebuffs their request for access to stop the worms. The PCs have to convince her that there is something better than oblivion, and that if she allows them to stop Elder and the brood, they can give her a new chance, along with everyone that dwells upon her. If not, they dare to attack the face of Spira, and in so doing open the heart of the world, releasing anything previously trapped there, as well as giving the worms free rain to exit without Elder or the other great worms having to sacrifice themselves to let the brood breach the final barriers...

PS: I love Kodali's Retreat,...so much I have stolen it for my run, though renamed...things which help prophecy of doom and apocalypse so make my day. So, thank you PC for putting that little Gem in the Universe you have shared with us


----------



## Robbs

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> The fundamental problem with this approach is that it often comes across as extremely contrived. That somehow there exist many different ways of doing something that no one has ever done before, and by some miracle none of the group are going to be left out... in a really small group it's not so bad, but when you're transporting a dozen characters/cohorts/mounts, it's a bit much.
> 
> No, really, tell me what you think! I may not understand the full context of the descent into the center but my idea wasn't that there were conveniently x number of methods (and oh look there are x number of us) but rather that there was no universal method. Therefore either the onus is on the players to use things from their background to attempt to achieve this or through their divinations/research/etc. they would come across different possibilities. If Option A requires that you be an outsider or is only open to lawful types (restrictions vary, check your local listing for details) then that could get 1 or 2 but not everyone.
> 
> Back to various avenues...PC you mentioned you didn't want them to get there thru the Underdark, does that also mean no physical travel at all? If physical travel is an option then entry thru something a la the Marianas Trench might be an option. Something involving the incredible depths and maybe a transitional area at the bottom of the trench that blends elemental planes or some such would provide some unusual backdrop and require some different preparations by the group (although this may hit too close to the kuo toa story arc).
> 
> If it is strictly metaphysical does it need to be tied strictly to the good/evil element of the talisman? Or is it more of an opposites thing? It may be too science fictiony but something along the line of exposing someone to negative and positive energy at the same tiime shunting them to this center?


----------



## Steverooo

Getting the DoD ANYWHERE is the least of your worries!  They have _Gate_, _Teleport Without Error_, and anything else they need...  I don't see the problem.  They can go Astral or Ethereal, travel the Plane of Shadow, whatever!

If they need to contact the Heart of Spira, Galanna seems a likely ally (and with Tao, they have an "In").  Again, I see no problem.

I would kill off Elder, too... but before I did, I would have him whisper threats of revenge to Stone Bear!  That should shake them up, especially when he realizes that Elder is no longer in his head!  

When the eggs start hatching, sleepers should awaken, screaming!  Dogs howl, cats scream, birds fly, chirping like crazy, and seers go mad.  Maybe Psions, too (certainly pre-cogs)!  Rabbits & Deer run, etc.  Hopefully, by then, the PCs will know what's going on...

If the Worms are dead, though, I don't think there will be too much "adventure" in this episode...  It doesn't seem too interesting, if it's just a "race against time to reforge the world" before the newest batch of Worms hatch... even if it takes place inside darkly glowing lava, in the center of the earth...  Needs some spice...


----------



## Spatzimaus

Robbs said:
			
		

> Therefore either the onus is on the players to use things from their background to attempt to achieve this or through their divinations/research/etc. they would come across different possibilities




And my objection wasn't that there shouldn't ever be multiple ways.  It's just that it causes some huge logical problems to try and tailor things to the individual players when you're talking about something as critical as this.
If there were many ways to get there, at least one would have become used by now.  And with the distribution of alignments/races/backgrounds in the group, not only would any method be available to many other groups wanting to get to the core, but it'd be extremely contrived to have only the backgrounds of the group correspond to the various methods.
And then there's the more practical side.  The party needs to arrive in the core at the same time, since it's practically guaranteed they'd have to fight.  So, you couldn't mix "fast" methods with "slow" ones.  They'd prefer a method that could carry the entire party in one shot, so the only way to force individualized methods would be to have each method only transport one or two people.

Now, the EFFECTS could be distinct.  A common method is to have the cost vary by the individual, which is especially easy if the method is being caused by an intelligent being.  Or, have the perceived experience vary.  But I think that it's just untenable to require the party to come up with multiple methods, because it opens the door for far too many other problems.

--------------------------

Anyway, how should they get down there?  Like Steverooo says, they have all those abilities.  Ergo, there must be some reason those abilities can't be used for this purpose.  (After all: why didn't they just Gate to Nacreous when they were dealing with the White Kingdom?  Instead they trudged all through the Underdark, and had to do favors for an earth spirit to get there in time.)

Now, Halcyon killed Yuute, one of the people Velendo hit with his shield.  That'd imply that she had a way of getting to wherever Talismans banish to.  Instead of using Halcyon's legacy (I vote her sword!) as a method of solving the problem, use it as the transportation method, and find something ELSE to use to solve the actual problem.

But again, it could come back to the Worms.  If a Worm sacrificed itself to raise a barrier around the eggs, you could easily require exceptional efforts to penetrate to the core.  And the real question is whether you want the DoD to face an active, hyperintelligent enemy (Elder) or a swarm of near-mindless hatchlings.  Two very different styles of encounter.


----------



## Ashy

Steverooo said:
			
		

> Getting the DoD ANYWHERE is the least of your worries!  They have _Gate_, _Teleport Without Error_, and anything else they need...  I don't see the problem.  They can go Astral or Ethereal, travel the Plane of Shadow, whatever!
> 
> If they need to contact the Heart of Spira, Galanna seems a likely ally (and with Tao, they have an "In").  Again, I see no problem.




But think about that for a moment.  We are talking the metaphysical center of an ENTIRE PLANET here - it should be far more special (and thus difficult) to get to the metaphysical and spiritual center of a planet than it is just to get to the mere physical center of a planet!  (and here I am talking like a trip to the center of a planet is as simple and commonplace as a trip down to the local tavern, but it's not, is it?  Even in most high magic fantasy campaigns, to boot!)  

I keep seeing something like an entire new plane of existence - something that no one has ever seen before - maybe something that ties in to the fundamental creative/destructive force of the entire multiverse.  Something along the lines of a place were the crystalized metaphysical centers of all inhabited worlds, from the beginning of time to the end, are strung haphazardly in the void.  Each world contains the sum of all of its inhabitants' experiences, but these memories and experiences are not whole - they are merely fragments that somehow, all collected, compise a new wholness - the sum total of a world.  

Maybe in this place, magic doesn't work the same way as it does in the "known" multiverse - perhaps it does not work at all (talk about making for an interesting high-level battle, try tossing that one in).  Perhaps this place is the opening of a brave new vista for the characters - a place that some of them (Agar in particular) might not want to leave...



			
				Steverooo said:
			
		

> I would kill off Elder, too... but before I did, I would have him whisper threats of revenge to Stone Bear!  That should shake them up, especially when he realizes that Elder is no longer in his head!




I've been thinking alot about the Stone Bear/Elder connection as well.  I think that you should consider, PC, letting Stone Bear start getting "visions" of what the worms have planned.  I mean, SB was connected spiritually to Elder for a time - surely there was a bit of "bleed over" there...  Just a thought.


----------



## carpedavid

Here's an idea for another potential "bad omen," though I'm not sure it'll work with your cosmology. What if the metaphysical center of spira is where souls originate, and, as the worms start eating it/cutting off its influence, things stop being born (or better yet, everything is stillborn)? Farmers and druids would notice first, then the peasantry, then the nobility. For an added kick, crops might fail to germinate.

So, not only do you have the immediate threat to worry about, you've got a world that's wondering why the gods have abandoned them, and you've got people slowly beginning to starve because their food sources aren't being replaced.

Heck, you could even have people start to resort to cannibalism if the lack of new food goes for too long, which might be even more horrifying than what would have happened had the White Kingdom won.

Just a thought - like I said, I'm not sure whether it fits in with the cosmology.


----------



## Funeris

I like Ashy's idea of a new plane...I had a similar thought last night but I decided not to delurk until this morning.  It would have to be an undiscovered if not unconventional plane.  Physically it could just be described as a seemingly infinite land mass composed of gray soil....stretching indefinitely to its horizons.  Perhaps in the northern sky there is a flashing pulse of brilliant energy...positive in nature....where souls are created...as Ashy said.  Conversely, there is a rolling pulse of black energy to the south.  Negatively charged and responsible for decay.

You may even have two other forms of "energy" in the west and east.  To the west perhaps objects have unusally sharp edges, as if drawn with a sharpie and a ruler.  The eastern horizon (and any objects out that way) are constantly in motion...arcing, rippling, evolving.  

Meanwhile, in the sky, float faint whispy orbs of light...the souls of the planets.  These orbs become more cubic when approaching the western lawful edge of this reality...These souls might have an orbit within this plane, bringing an individual planet-soul alternately toward the forces of life, death, law, and chaos...enforcing a balance that keeps a world alive.  

So Halcyon's blade is connected to this plane...a plane that predates the greater gods.  It would obviously be tied to the lawful or western aspect.  The blade could get them there.

As for the worms, they were around before the current pantheon.  They would probably know of this place...and maybe can easily get there coming from a time before the current pantheon.  Hell, maybe they used this plane to travel between the different worlds they used to help destroy.

How do your characters get here?  Cosmologically it encompasses all of the other planes.  You could access any plane...any world from within its borders.  At the same time, its spaced so that access from the other planes/worlds is denied.  It is AND it is not.  It would be the access hallway in the matrix movies...and you need the right key.  So, do you send 'em searching for a Mcguffin?  Nah.

Instead, the worms while passing into this place tear a brief hole in the planar fabric.  They never had to come here before a world died...so it leaves a tear through which the DoD can travel.  This tear doesn't just show up in their world.  It seeps chaotic energy into the lawful planes, lawful energy into the chaotic planes....etc. etc. etc. 

So, they're dealing not only with the end of Spira....but with the multiverse collapsing upon itself.  Too bad they don't have the Crosser's Maze   The beauty of the worms opening the metaphysical path for the Defenders is that the Defenders won't be able to get there before the worms.  Once they get there...they'll be tied up with fixing the multiverse...while the worms have already accessed Spira's soul...entered it after perhaps making a deal with it per The One Warlock's idea...and began to reproduce...

I dunno though...I could keep expounding on this endlessly though...so I'll just sit back and see if I stirred up any creative juices...

[RESUMES LURKER MODE]


----------



## Funeris

Alright...one more thing...

Kodali's Retreat might actually tap into this plane some how...and use it as a database...and that's how it always manages to orbit around a dying planet...maybe there's a doorway into the plane hidden somewhere in the retreat...a way to upload your own sentience to the plane or some such...

Maybe two more things....items of extreme alignment such as Halycon's blade and Agar's shield are connected to the planes as well...although this may just be a fluke caused in the creation of the item.

[SERIOUSLY RESUMES LURKER MODE NOW]


----------



## Spatzimaus

Ashy said:
			
		

> I keep seeing something like an entire new plane of existence - something that no one has ever seen before - maybe something that ties in to the fundamental creative/destructive force of the entire multiverse.




I was thinking about the plane idea, but I was thinking you'd take it from the other direction.  The psionic power _Genesis_ makes a demiplane that slowly grows, 50' per year.  And, if used on the Material Plane, it creates a "dead zone" instead.  So, why not reverse things?  Instead of the nature of the core driving the worms, have the worms be the one responsible for the place from the start.


Back when they first escaped, the worms went to the center of the world.  They used an Epic-level variant of _Genesis_; this "Epic Genesis" does both effects at once; it devastates a volume of the core, and with the resulting energy creates a plane-within-a-plane with the exact conditions needed to breed new worms, the sort of conditions that existed back in the primal universe before the gods arrived.  It's basically a realm of pure chaos, and it's not completely coterminous with either the Real World or the Astral Plane, existing in a halfway state.  Plus, the Epic Genesis plane grows at a much faster rate.
(Question: why the core?  The simple reason is that it's the only place the ritual will work, but WHY?  Maybe the spell requires the sacrifice of powerful people... like all the ones that have been sent to the core by Velendo and others... so every powerful enemy banished by a Talisman just served as fuel for the Worms.  Or maybe it's just that the "flame" at the heart of the earth would destroy the worms, like the sun would, if it wasn't displaced first, so the antigenesis component of the spell was necessary.)

You could easily say that the ritual happened LONG ago, and the "nest" has finally grown to the right size, although that reduces the impact of the sacrifice idea above a bit.  (On the other hand, this means that many of the omens could have actually happened long, long ago, which could explain some of the other ideas we've had about ancient prophecies and seers.)

So now the worms have headed back to the nest and laid the eggs.  Stone Bear should have felt this happening.
(If you want to get rid of the adult worms: To protect the eggs, one of them (not Elder) sacrificed itself to create an impenetrable planar barrier around the nest, and Elder is inside the nest guarding the eggs until they hatch and devour him.  Again, Stone Bear would know the moment Elder died.)
At some point the eggs will hatch, the worms will start swarming, and the world will start being hollowed out.  They're not actually going for "hollow", they're just trying to reach the surface and find food before they starve.

This means that the DoD face several challenges:
1> Find a way to penetrate the core, either through defenses set directly by the worms, or the very nature of the place.  Ioun might know a way.
2> Get past the hatchlings.  For this one, they might have to ask for help from those nature spirits again.
3> Neutralize the miniplane of chaos growing there, probably using artifacts of pure law... like Halcyon's sword... convenient.
4,5> Find a way to return the core to its natural state, and destroy the new worms.  If the reason the core was picked was that it's a sun-like source of energy that would destroy the new worms, the very act of restoring would kill the hatchlings.  If not, you'll have to find some other way.  Of course, the question becomes exactly HOW they'd do it, and the short answer is that if the Worms can use this epic power, the gods must have similar abilities.  One of them would surely be willing to make a Proxy/Avatar to do this.
The natural choice in the Human pantheon for restoring would be Boros (underworld) although Galanna would work if you interpret her "Nature" portfolio a bit loosely.  Having Galanna be the hero has a certain appeal after the beating her religion took from the Imbindarla disaster, and of course she's connected to the DoD.  (Except, with Tao and Raevynn not full PCs any more, this might not be simple.)  Actually, none of your pantheon seem to focus much on the physical aspects of the planet (stone, lava, etc.), so maybe the solution is to ask a Dwarven god for help... Splinder would have been the best choice for a Proxy, but he's busy.  Hmm, where's Wulf Ratbane when you need him?


----------



## Knight Otu

> [sblock]Okay, kibitz and comment - adding improvements! For instance, right now the only good way we know of to get to the metaphysical center of the world is to plummet there in agony after getting hit by Velendo's shield (a talisman of pure good). How would you get to the center of creation, in a way that didn't involve purely physical travel through the underdark?[/sblock]



[sblock]I suppose Imprisonment spell could fit, in a twisted way, but since the subject is placed in suspended animation in a small sphere, it is rather impractical as a travel spell. A wish to "not have the subject be placed in suspended animation in a small sphere" would make it more practical, but extremely resource-intensive.
Another option may be a travel through the Astral Plane, whether via Astral Projection or other means.[/sblock]


----------



## Kaodi

*Hmmm...*

Well...

PirateCat, in addition to the Soul of Spira, you also mentioned the heart of a sun. I think I have an interesting idea for that one.

I'm no master of physics (though two people I game with have their undergraduate degrees in this field), I do recall reading that sometimes when a sun collapses back on itself, it forms a singularity, which we all also know as a black hole. The sphere of annihilation is quite obviously the magical equivalent of a black hole, and so if you reverse engineered the science, perhaps in D&D you could recreate the power of solar fusion using a black hole. 

To unleash this power, a person would have to enter the appropriate locale with the sphere of annihilation, and then when everything was in place, a special oil of life, created by combining a potion of cure critical wounds, a potion of restoration (both of which as 4th level spells, can't be made into potions by the rules but perhaps the Defenders can also find a way to create them) and the quicksilver from a philosopher's stone, would be poured onto the sphere, and instead of being sucked into it like most everything else would, it reacts to cause a magical fusion effect, which destroys the worms and begins to eat away at the world, at which point a rod of cancellation must be used, briefly returning the sphere to its normal form before resulting in the normal explosion caused by the two items meeting.

After that, a sacred ritual must be performed using the Soul of Spira (recovered from Elder) which will deliver the world from the sickness, plagues and disasters which it has been suffering of late. If the Soul isn't restored to its rightful place in time, the force of the explosions in the nest of the worms will cause the planet to break apart anyway. 

If you were a real RBDM, that part about the ritual to restore Spira wouldn't be revealed to the Defenders until after they had destroyed the worms infestation, and Kodali's Retreat was still hanging in the sky... Muahahaha...


----------



## Spatzimaus

Kaodi said:
			
		

> I'm no master of physics (though two people I game with have their undergraduate degrees in this field), I do recall reading that sometimes when a sun collapses back on itself, it forms a singularity, which we all also know as a black hole.




I'm a seventh-year grad student in astrophysics.  (Sigh.)  So, I'll give the physics sidenote.

Stars as small as our sun can't form black holes, they're way too small for that, by a factor of... well, it depends on the circumstances, but let's say 10ish.  The minimum mass of a "stable" black hole is larger than our sun, and the process of creating a black hole would, in theory, eject the majority of the star's mass, so you'd have to start off much larger than that.  Our Sun is going to end up as a simple White Dwarf star; of course, this won't happen for a good five billion years or so, and most of the sun's gas will be blown away in the process (which would kill us, incidentally, even ignoring what it does to our orbit).

And you can't go with a larger star, either.  Any star large enough to form a black hole would put out massive amounts of UV radiation (not good for life) and have lifespans measured in only millions of years.  Of course, we've only actually seen a small number of black holes (and that's "seen" in the sense of "noticed the effects of"; they're hard to actually view at long range), but the theory behind them is pretty simple.

Anyway, I'd say dump the physics.  This is a mystical world, where the sun is managed by gods.  No need to rationalize things in terms of modern sciences, unless you really want to.


----------



## the Jester

Damn PC, any chance for some giant stats?  Those guys rock! (yuk yuk yuk)


----------



## DanMcS

Kaodi said:
			
		

> So? You want to find the soul of Spira, eh? Well, there is a small problem. You see, Elder, he uh... ate it. Oh, don't worry, being devoured by a primal incarnation of entropy and destruction isn't *quite* enough to do the trick. The thing is still there! The problem is though, it isn't that easy to get it out. Not like you can just give the bugger the Heimlich manouever and it'll pop right out, right? Or maybe you can...




Ring of Incontinence.

Aw, heck, Nolin's gone.  They did retrieve the ring, didn't they?


----------



## Plane Sailing

carpedavid said:
			
		

> Here's an idea for another potential "bad omen," though I'm not sure it'll work with your cosmology. What if the metaphysical center of spira is where souls originate, and, as the worms start eating it/cutting off its influence, things stop being born (or better yet, everything is stillborn)? Farmers and druids would notice first, then the peasantry, then the nobility. For an added kick, crops might fail to germinate.




I love this idea. It could be sort of "Bastion of Broken Souls" done _right_.


----------



## Greybar

Hmm... was that *the* meteor swarm, lost forever?


----------



## Piratecat

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> I love this idea. It could be sort of "Bastion of Broken Souls" done _right_.




I love this idea too.  

I'll post Imperator Caustas's stats in a sec, but first another request. Let's say you suddenly dumped 200,000 refugees on a D&D-esque city of 80,000 people. Would would be the results, and what sort of scenes might occur? I need color commentary for an upcoming game.


--- o ---

Imperator Caustas, Cloudhammer of  the Northern Sky

(Jotunblood Storm Giant, thunderchild heritage, fighter 4; templates (with some changes) are from Green Ronin’s Advanced Bestiary.)

Size/Type:	Gargantuan Giant (with elemental traits that I’ve purposely ignored)

Hit Dice:	29d8+4d10+396 (548 hp)

Initiative:	+8

Speed:	100 ft. (21 squares), swim 90 ft. (18 squares) in armor; base speed 120 ft., swim 100 ft.

Armor Class:	35 (-4 size, +3 Dex, +13 natural, +5 breastplate, +4 dodge, +4 deflection) touch 12, flat-footed 28

BAB/Grapple:	+25/+58

Attack:	Greatsword +48 melee (6d6+38+2d6 electricity/17-20) or slam +42 melee (1d8+21+1d6 electricity) or composite longbow (+21 Str bonus) +23 ranged (4d6+21/×3)

Full Attack:	Greatsword +48/+48/+43/+38/+33 melee (6d6+38+2d6 electricity /17-20) or 2 slams +42 melee (1d8+21+1d6 electricity) or composite longbow (+21 Str bonus) +23/+18/+13/+8 ranged (4d6+21/×3)

Space/Reach:	20 ft./20 ft.

Special Attacks:	Spell-like abilities, breath weapons, electric aura (1d6 within 10’)

Special Qualities:	Limited freedom of movement (see below), cloud sight, immunity to electricity, low-light vision, rock catching, water breathing, sonic resistance 20, cold resistance 10, gas & poison immunity, lightning jump, scent, SR 8+CR (31)

Saves:	Fort +32, Ref +18, Will +19 (-2 vs neutral)

Abilities:	Str 53 (+21), Dex 18, Con 34 (+12), Int 18, Wis 22, Cha 19

Skills:	Climb +28, Concentration +42, Craft (any one) +13, Diplomacy +6, Intimidate +36, Jump +42, Listen +26, Perform (sing) +12, Sense Motive +12, Spot +40, Swim +22*

Feats:	Awesome Blow, Cleave, Combat Reflexes (4 AoOs), extend cone (breath weapon), great cleave, Improved Bull Rush, improved critical (greatsword), improved damage cap (breath weapon), improved initiative, improved overrun, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, leadership, lightning reflexes, Power Attack, large and in charge, Weapon focus (greatsword)

CR:	23

Alignment:	Chaotic evil

Spells active (some are redundant):  (1) shield of faith (+4 deflection to AC), protection from good (+2 deflection to AC vs good, +2 resistance vs good, no possession, no summoned creatures)  (2) Status, eagle’s splendor, (3) magic circle vs. good (10’ r. emanation), prot vs fire (60 pts), (4) air walk, death ward, neutralize poison, spell immunity (magic missile, fireball, ray of enfeeblement, slow), (6) mass bull’s strength, mass bear’s endurance, wind walk, control weather

Treasure: colossal mithral (skysilver) shocking greatsword of speed +5 (normally 200k, much much less due to size; 64 lbs.; 290 hp, hardness 25), +5 gargantuan breastplate of command (normally 64k), gargantuan belt of the titans (+6 str, +6 con, does not resize).  Jewelry (circlet, rings) worth 70,000 gp.

A jotunblood storm giant with thunderchild heritage is approximately 40’ tall and 100,000 lbs, with gray skin and blue hair that crackles constantly with electricity. These giants have a constant electrical glow around them. They wear finely crafted metal armor when prepared for war, and favor large swords and fine jewelry. 

Combat: Storm giants use weapons and spell-like abilities instead of throwing rocks. Their composite longbows have a range increment of 180 feet. 

Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—call lightning (DC 17), chain lightning (DC 20).  2/day—control weather (used once), levitate. 3/day – fog cloud, gaseous form, sound burst.  Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. 

Breath Weapons: The giant can breath either a 100' long line (5' wide), a 50' long line (10' wide), or a 40’ (60’ with feat) cone of lightning once every 1d4 rounds.  Every creature caught in the cone must make a reflex save DC 36, or (DC 10 + ½ giant’s racial hit dice + giant’s con modifier) or take 20d6 electricity damage. A successful save halves the damage.

Limited Freedom of Movement (Su): Storm giants have a continuous freedom of movement ability as the spell (caster level 20th). The effect can be dispelled, but the storm giant can create it again on its next turn as a free action. This ability does not affect grappling in any way, and is simply used to allow the giant to travel underwater and through solid clouds. This weird condition is definitely NOT because I forgot to use it when the Imperator got grappled, and just ret-conned the ability.  Nope.  No way, no how.

Water Breathing (Ex):  Storm giants can breathe underwater indefinitely and can freely use their spell-like abilities while submerged. 

Skills: A storm giant has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line. 

*Storm giants ignore all weight penalties for gear carried when swimming.


----------



## Vargo

With that many refugees, you're going to have a LOT of problems.  Organized (and unorganized) crime is going to move quick and hard to fleece the refus, and any "organized crime" refugees may attempt to supplant the local syndicates as well.  Think an all-out war of assassins and thieves in a town already stretched to the breaking point.  More unsavory: The refus will also be a good source of unwilling prostitutes for impression into brothels.  The refugee families will have few resources to expend looking for missing family members.  However, this could lead to a "man on fire" scenario where one family member strikes out on his own, attempting to take down the syndicate that kidnapped his daughter.  Maybe a retired top scout for the army, mid-fifties human, Scout 15-16?

Food prices will skyrocket without legal controls; with legal controls, there will still be a sizeable black market.  One possible legal control, depending on how "popular" the refus are is a ban on the sale of goods to the refugees.  This also depends on how much under threat the city is in the immediate future - the rulers may want to reserve food stocks for any coming siege which they may be under the threat of.

Jobs.  Don't underestimate the devestation all those refugees can wreak on the local economy - combine with the black market food prices for people desperate to work at any price.  Locals will find themselves displaced by cheap desparate laborers, who will work under any conditions.  Lots of shoddy construction work goes up, and a lot of that work comes back down right away, without any warning.  Also, expect lots of riots from the newly unemployed, and the different business interests using this as a way to bypass the local artisan's guilds.

Squatters.  Some of these people will be looking for a place to stay, and may move into 'abandoned' buildings - the definition of 'abandoned' varies wildly.  This is an exceptionally fun thing to throw at your paladins, as they are suddenly struck with the problem of law enforcement (people taking other people's property) versus caring for the needy who have nowhere to go.

Just a few thoughts...  Also, in the story hour, it looks like the party is having a mindlink conversation with Ioun's Marshall - don't remember her name.  The first paragraph could use a very slight amount of tweaking.


----------



## Moleculo

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I love this idea too.
> 
> I'll post Imperator Caustas's stats in a sec, but first another request. Let's say you suddenly dumped 200,000 refugees on a D&D-esque city of 80,000 people. Would would be the results, and what sort of scenes might occur? I need color commentary for an upcoming game.




Have you seen _City of God_, Piratecat? It demonstrates what happens when you stuff too many people into a city; all the homeless get shipped off to the outskirts (Which Rio calls the City of God) and gangs rule the street.


----------



## Spatzimaus

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Let's say you suddenly dumped 200,000 refugees on a D&D-esque city of 80,000 people. Would would be the results, and what sort of scenes might occur? I need color commentary for an upcoming game.




It REALLY depends on one thing: did the refugees manage to bring along even part of their wealth?  I mean, this IS D&D.  In a city of 200,000, there'd have to be at least a few people with portable holes, bags of holding, etc.  Even if they couldn't bring a lot with them, as long as their original home still existed, "salvage parties" could _teleport_ there and back to recover things.

Two possibilities:

1> They have nothing but the clothes on their backs.
Personally, I don't even think this'd be feasible then, with the numbers you're mentioning.  They'd have no way to pay for the extra food, water, essential items (clothing, etc).  The city would have massive shortages of food and water, with no way to make up the difference.  The refugees would have to live in a shantytown, most likely, except for the few with enough skill to build something out in the wilderness (log cabin, cottage, whatever).  The decrease in hygeine would almost definitely cause a plague.
There'd be a glut on low-level labor at first, as poor ex-farmers and such needed money just to feed themselves.  Some professions can bring all their essentials along, but the ones that can't will be at the bottom of the pile.  The skilled craftsmen would find work in their local craft guilds, especially the ones that could bring even a few of their tools along; they might have to act like apprentices or journeymen for a while, but it's better than nothing.  But, without extra money coming into the system, this'd take a LONG time to sort out; the local blacksmith, for instance, would now have far more people wanting things made, and could use the extra labor, but most of that extra demand would come from people unable to pay until their own jobs paid them, and so on.  This'd cause a rapid shift back to a barter economy for most services, and there'd be huge resentment within many of the crafts (let's say I'm apprentice to the only smith in town... and suddenly, two more master smiths show up looking for work, each with their own apprentices.  Now, the chances of me taking over the business are slim to none.)

2> They managed to bring a sizeable amount of wealth with them.
If you do this, then they can pay to have actual houses built, open their own shops (instead of having to apprentice to others), and so on.  While their average wealth might not be up to the standards of the original town, it'd be more like a rapid growth of the city instead of a disaster.  If the original city is fairly spread out, it wouldn't even cause a huge problem, but if the old town was compact (say, with a wall around it) you'd eventually have effecitvely two separate cities, side-by-side.

The actual situation would probably be somewhere between 1 and 2.  The wealthier people would probably find ways to keep some of their wealth, and some craftsmen would find ways to bring along the essential tools of their trade and a few valuable items.  But the simple peasants would have nothing.  Either way, you'll have huge religious/cultural disputes, as the culture of the newcomers would eventually dominate the existing one due simply to numbers.  You'd get conversions in both directions.  Crime would skyrocket; the old city wouldn't want to depend on any law enforcement from the newcomers, and the newcomers would be easy to steal from.  Gangs would usually be the result of this.

The worst shortages wouldn't appear for a while.  Building all those new houses takes wood, and while there may be plenty of trees in the area now, the logging would probably go from being balanced with the local planting rate to being completely unbalanced.  This, in turn, would upset the Druids.  Likewise, animals would be over-hunted, as the easiest way for the newcomers to get food without paying money.  Iron ore would run out after a little bit, as the local smiths use the local supply up on utility items like horseshoes, tools, nails, etc.; unless the town's in an area where ore can be mined, that is.  You'd probably see many of these crafts switch to whatever materials were available; bronze, wood, and bone would be used wherever possible.  So in addition to the strangeness of seeing horses with wooden shoes, or bronze tools everywhere, there'd be a lot more trade routes opening up to supply these materials.

The people hit hardest would be those with "non-productive" professions.  Peasants and craftsmen can obviously find jobs in their own specialties, given time, but what does a mid-level politician do?  Sure, eventually they'll need some sort of bureaucracy to manage the expanded town, but there's no guarantee that he will be part of that.  This is especially true if he didn't deserve the job in the first place; if he was corrupt, and people knew it, they're not going to want him back again, and unless the people who got him the job in the first place have influence in this new town (probably not), he's hosed.  If this is in a feudal society, than the "mayor" of the old city was probably some sort of minor nobility; if the new town isn't part of the same chain of obligations, then he'd be completely out of a job.  Aside from politicians, there are always some professions that wouldn't transfer well.  In a wealthy city you can afford to have a certain number of artists, philosophers, professional athletes, entertainers, and such; if those people were suddenly refugees in a much poorer group of people, who can't possibly support their old professions, what do they do?


----------



## Piratecat

Excellent. I also need to consider sewage, and water, and food. The town in question is Corsai, and an influx like that is going to drain the resources of a desert city in no time flat.  Keep the ideas coming.

When I post about this in a month or so (it won't occur for one or two games), I'll accompany it with my game design thoughts on why I'm doing it. The short answer is that I'm dramatically shaking up the military and political climate in and around Corsai; how the PCs handle it will have a direct impact on how much influence they have when negotiating with Ioun.


----------



## Greybar

If you've read the _Song of Ice and Fire_ books, this sounds a lot like what happens there when the war comes calling ... though not nearly as bad as the 80K vs. 200K I'm sure.

Just knowing where to put all of those people is huge.  I like Spaz's distinction between potential wealthy (perhaps exiled nobility) and the common folk.

For the wealthy, they might be able to wiggle their connections to be taken in as guests by Corsai nobility (and churches, etc.) But the longer they are there, two things will probably happen side by side:
1) their hosts will chafe at the cost of their generosity.  This will also be modified by whether the cause of the diaspora looks to be solvable in the near future, or if it is only getting worse.
2) the refugees who were nobles or other powerful types are used to being in charge of their own city.  By their own natures, they're going to try to have a say about the conduct of their host city - particular as it relates to themselves, their people, and long term solutions to the problem.

For the working folk, I think alot good has been said before.  Huge amounts of desperate violence, backlash from the local population, long buried racial and nationalistic hatreds rising again.  The rise of groups like the mafia, which was originally a group to defend locals against the occupation and then became steadily more corrupt.

Lots of potential for well-meaning people to want to kill other well-meaning people!  The Good vs. Good battles are the best, aren't they?


----------



## Spatzimaus

Okay, from your phrasing I'm assuming the people are coming TO Corsai, not FROM.  So, are the refugees all coming from one city or area, or is this more of a general influx to the one safe place in the world?  If it was a single city that fell, and its entire population is moving, then the newcomers will be more likely to try reasserting their old structure.

One thing that helps here is that thanks to the church of Aeos, Corsai will have more priests per capita than most other cities.  That means that failing all else, _create food and water_ can sustain the refugees for a while, and the various healing magics can help prevent massive plagues and water contamination.  Mystical "soup kitchens" will go a long way, here.
Sewage will be difficult no matter how you look at it; it's not so much the disposal of actual sewage that'll be the problem, it's the fact that poor refugees probably aren't in a position to be as careful about waste and disease as they would be normally.  Again, magic helps, but the only long-term solution is to get them into livable conditions again.

When you say Corsai is in the desert, do you mean that it's a spring/oasis style of mid-desert town (like many in Saudi Arabia), or do you mean a town along a freshwater river that runs through a desert (like those near the Nile in Egypt)?  River-based ones wouldn't be too bad; you'd still have some good farmland, water consumption could increase to match the new population, and the sewage increase would really only be a problem for whoever's downstream of you.
But, if it's an oasis-centered city, you'd have huge problems.  The amount of semi-arable land would be limited; without the ability to expand the local farmland, you're not going to solve the food issue easily, and the people won't be able to simply spread out into the wilderness.  In fact, for the city to grow to enclose new houses, you'd actually have to reduce the farmland a bit.  If the primary source of food for the city is animal-based (livestock, fish, etc.) then the food supply can't be expanded quickly at all even if there was enough land.  These sorts of desert cities tend to reach the maximum size their environment can supply, and then hold there, because the methods required to expand beyond that point are prohibitive, and tend to be detrimental to the area (see also: Los Angeles' water supply).

In fact, I'd say then that the long-term problem is that the majority of the refugees simply CAN'T stay in Corsai.  It just can't hold them; no city can easily handle a tripling of population in a short time, even if there were no food/water issues.  A few could stay, since it's practically guaranteed that Corsai could absorb a small number of skilled immigrants, but most would have to go elsewhere.

Solution: If there are any other oases or rivers nearby, you might actually see a number of new, smaller "protectorate" towns springing up instead, populated almost entirely by refugees, each limited by the size of its own water supply.  While there might already be small towns near Corsai, a few things limit that; this area has been cleaned out in the past by both the Mang and later the Necromancer Kings, right?  Plus, they've probably had the usual problems with raiders.  I'd think that only large, fortified cities would have survived those times, so there are probably a good number of abandoned/razed small towns near other sources of water.  Maybe they're only mostly abandoned.

So, let's say Corsai encourages (and helps fund and construct, with serious magic) a number of new towns located in these spots, with the understanding that their military will defend the towns against external threats.  Corsai might end up with 120k people (adding more military and bureaucracy, plus some people who just like big cities), and there would now be a dozen new small towns within 100 miles, ranging from a few small towns of 5k people to one or two big 50k cities.  They wouldn't be homogeneous; the Dwarves might end up running one town, while the Elves end up with another, and so on.  Any group uncomfortable with the current setup in Corsai would prefer its own town, and if the immigrants came from a small number of cities, you'd see a lot of towns with "New" in the name where they attempt to re-establish the system they lived under before.  In fact, you'd probably see some current Corsai residents choosing to move out to the small towns; they'd probably be the wealthiest ones there, too, so Corsai might end up even MORE Aeos-dominated than before.
It's not even implausible to have towns develop this way.  Under normal circumstances, a village can't grow from a small, agrarian village to a walled city overnight, so it's understandable that even with a number of good city locations, only the largest (like Corsai) would have survived the various armies that have gone through this region, while the inhabitants of the rest moved to the safer cities.  But if you're supplying tens of thousands of new residents AND the resources for construction AND defenders while the construction is underway, it's actually feasible.

So, questions:
> What are the primary sources of food and water for Corsai, currently?
> Have you already established the geography of the area for the players, or are you free to play around with it a bit?
> What are you aiming for, in the long run?  Do you WANT those 200k to be part of Corsai?  Do you want them to remain in the area?  Are they going to be able to return to their original homes?  Or are they just a problem that's going to move through?


----------



## Piratecat

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> So, questions:
> > What are the primary sources of food and water for Corsai, currently?
> > Have you already established the geography of the area for the players, or are you free to play around with it a bit?
> > What are you aiming for, in the long run?  Do you WANT those 200k to be part of Corsai?  Do you want them to remain in the area?  Are they going to be able to return to their original homes?  Or are they just a problem that's going to move through?




I'll be AFK until Sunday, but before I go. . .

1. Corsai is on an arid grassland, with desert to the west, prairies to the east, mountains to the north (the southern end of a north/sound chain) and dry grasslands to the south.  The city farms the eastern (and to an certain extent the southern) grasslands, and has huge herds of cattle and sheep. Think Texas, with a slightly more exotic feel.  I never really thought of it before, but a river clearly comes south from the mountains and passes through Corsai.

2. I can play around with the area within reason.

3. No, the 200K refugees won't be staying in Corsai for the most part. I know where they'll end up, though. . . and the trek there is going to make for some entertaining political upheaval as what is effectively an army marches across numerous nations.

Some of you might remember the key/plane shift focus that Nolin found back in the vaults of Mrid; it was tied to a legend of a lost dwarven city. Well, they're coming back.


----------



## Graywolf-ELM

At a certain point, the leaders of the city, have to say.  Shut the gate, we can not sacrifice the survival of our people for the refugees.  Then either the city is closed and a semi-siege takes place, where caravans bound for the city are waylaid and the city begins to lose food and resources from the outside, or some form of system of entry is granted, with the enty a pass is given, and the person must leave by a certain time, or risk not getting a pass again.  The grounds around the city(if it is walled) become an open camp with the possibility of the spread of disease and more, unless some order is maintained for waste disposal and such. 

A form of martial law gets instituted with a curfew to keep outsiders off of the streets and crime down.  passes are checked, profiling happens, gods forbid you leave your house without your resident pass, you could be thrown out of the city.


----------



## Spatzimaus

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Corsai is on an arid grassland, with desert to the west, prairies to the east, mountains to the north (the southern end of a north/sound chain) and dry grasslands to the south.  The city farms the eastern (and to an certain extent the southern) grasslands, and has huge herds of cattle and sheep. Think Texas, with a slightly more exotic feel.  I never really thought of it before, but a river clearly comes south from the mountains and passes through Corsai.




Okay, good.  With a river, the water supply isn't as critical of an issue, and with grassland and praries around (even dry ones), there's plenty of room for agriculture to expand if people decide to remain in the area.  After all, Nebraska and Kansas were originally referred to as "desert" because of their lack of trees, even though they're great farmland.  If you're going for a Texas-ish climate, that's still good enough for this.

Of course, if the horde of refugees aren't intending to stay in Corsai, the agricultural side doesn't really matter.  All you care about is getting them enough food in the short term, and for that I'd say magic will have to suffice.  But then again, the real question is, if they're not intending to stay in Corsai, where do THEY think they'll find food?  Only the largest cities would store enough spare food to feed 200k people for even a day or two, let alone how long it'd take them to get to the next city by land.  So unless you want them eating everything in sight as they cross the plains, there has to be some way of finding foot in transit.  This isn't the sort of area that favors foraging as you go.

And if they're not intending to stay, why exactly are they in Corsai in the first place?  Is it on the main trade route?  Is the river large enough for boats?  Was it just the nearest big city?  Are they asking for magical assistance (Teleportation Circle, or a Gate to take them to some destination?)

If this is the Dwarves returning to the Black Gate, maybe that's the solution: they're just trying to get to a single destination, so they just want to all get to a place where someone can make a _Teleportation Circle_.  For only 1000 gp, a level 20 Wizard could open a 5' gate for 200 minutes.  In that much time, they could move a HUGE amount of people and cargo, more than they could ever move overland.  (If you assume you could coordinate it to ~3 seconds per person, that's 4000 people per casting.)  The other transit spells (Plane Shift, Gate, etc.) can't possibly move this number of people.  But to do it, they need a level 20 Wizard who's familiar with their destination... and if their destination is the Black Gate, then Agar's the only one who meets that requirement (luckily he ditched Enchantment instead of Conjuration), although any high-level mage could Scry Splinder if need be.  And this assumes he has that spell available (probably not), which means he'll need to find a scroll to learn it from.  (Ioun probably has it in his spellbook, actually.)

So, what they're REALLY looking for is a place where 200,000 people and their stuff can meet up with Agar, and Corsai's the obvious choice.  He'd either have to cast the spell ~50 times, at 1000gp per, or cast it once and _Permanency_ it for 4500 XP.  (If I were him, I'd cast it 50 times, and I'm sure the Dwarves wouldn't be happy with a 1-way teleporter that leads straight to their city.)  This'd take some time, so while they'd eat up all the extra food in town, the problem would only last as long as how ever many days it takes to cast a 9th-level spell 50 times, and the drain would ease as more and more of them go through.
Agar can't do it all himself, though.  You've mentioned that the DoD range from Velendo (21) to Eve (18), so I'm assuming Agar is 19 or 20.  A 20th-level Wizard gets four 9th-level spells per day (plus one for his Divination specialty, which doesn't apply here, plus one Summoning, which doesn't apply), and Agar's INT was 24 at 17th level according to his character sheet.  But his PrCs cost him a level of spellcasting, so he's only capable of 2-3 of these per day.  So, maybe other high-level mages will have to be brought in to make it go faster.  (Obvious method: Agar makes a circle, the other mages go through first, study the area, they teleport themselves back, and now they can make their own circles.)  In the end, even with a dozen mages it'd probably take 2 or 3 days to move everyone, especially if they're bringing lots of cargo along.

Incidentally, how are 200,000 Dwarves getting TO this plane?  They can't all Plane Shift.  And if they're actually coming in a steady stream, instead of all at once, it makes the spellcasting side easier.  If <10k arrive per day, Agar could handle the load all by himself.


----------



## Zaruthustran

Can we have more info on the refugees?

With such a large group communication and control is a big issue. The leader would have to absolutely recognized and have magical means (or a printing press) in order to clearly and effectively communicate. If he wasn't followed absolutely, such an enormous mob would be extremely difficult to control. Some would want to stay, some would want to go elsewhere, some would prey upon others, some wouldn't know what to do/what was going on.

Food and water is the biggest practical issue, as others have mentioned. Without magical aid the town's entire food supply would be depleted in a week or two (depending on season). Consumables such as firewood, salt, candles, oil, and whatnot would likewise run out. The river would turn into an absolute cesspool, possibly killing fish and really ruining the day of whoever is downstream. The actual grounds of the refugee camp would be filthy and, when they leave, a ruinious waste (though able to be quickly repaired with spells). 

If the refugees pay for their goods you'd get a boomtown effect on the economy. If the town doesn't sell then you'd get raiding, banditry, food riots and a siege. Again, magic would really help here. 

-z


----------



## thatdarncat

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> plus one Summoning, which doesn't apply



I don't have my books with me, but are you sure? Is there anything that he can summon that can cast teleportation circle itself?

For that matter, is there anything that Velendo can gate in?


----------



## Piratecat

The refugees are dwarves that have been changed by their extra-planar time on the plane of earth; they're now mithral dwarves, with silvery eyes and "blood" that is actually liquid mithral.*  Interestingly enough, they've never had to drink before, because there are no liquids on their former plane. When a wave of disease sweeps through them a few hours after their arrival, it's going to be simple thirstiness. We'll see if any PCs recognize the symptoms.

The only way a teleport circle will be mentioned is if the PCs mention it. I'm just as happy with having a huge force of armed and paranoid dwarves marching across my campaign world, seeking out the empty dwarven strongholds and displacing lord knows what dwarves/gnomes/monsters on the way.

* Yup, you bet I know what this will mean when word gets out. Don't think that isn't intentional.


----------



## DrZombie

sorryn guys, but this one 's too important:
look at this


----------



## Spatzimaus

thatdarncat said:
			
		

> I don't have my books with me, but are you sure? Is there anything that he can summon that can cast teleportation circle itself?
> 
> For that matter, is there anything that Velendo can gate in?




I can't think of anything that could do it, offhand.  Part of the problem is simple: if it were possible to summon something that could cast 9th-level spells with a single 9th-level spell, there'd be a huge balance problem.  So, I'm pretty confident nothing on the list can do it.  Also, a prepared caster brought in wouldn't have that spell memorized.  And what Sorcerer takes _Teleport Circle_?  So, that leaves spell-like abilities, and none of the ones on the Summon lists have that spell; a few have teleportation (usually self-only) or _Plane Shift_, but that defeats the purpose of casting the spell in the first place.

Finally, _Summon Monster_ spells only last 1 round per level, and _Teleport Circle_ takes 10 minutes to cast.  At caster level 18 or 19, Agar's still at just under 2 minutes.  Without a Feat that extends the summon duration, this wouldn't be long enough to cast the spell.  Agar has Extend Spell and Persistent Spell, but these would take extra levels, so you'd need a Summon Monster 1-5 that somehow can cast a 9th-level spell.  You could use a _Gate_ to bring in a creature (assuming you can find one that knows the spell), but that costs 1000 XP per use AND a task that takes longer than 1round/level requires extra payment.

Piratecat: 
EVIL!!!  Heh, I love it.  Of course, referring to them as "refugees" seems awfully misleading; they're not really running from anything, are they?  And they're definitely not poor and helpless people needing protection.

But it still begs the question of what they thought they were going to eat when they chose to start this migration, which they KNEW wouldn't be very fast.  Presumably they've brought along some food with them.  In fact, I'd expect this to be like an old wagon train; they fit everything they own into large covered wagons, and laager up every night to eat, socialize, etc.  If they're as armed and paranoid as you're implying, in fact, I'd assume this'd be the way they'd PREFER to do it, avoiding most cities wherever possible.  Maybe they just send a small detachment to negotiate for food from each town they come near.  (In fact, if any of them have magical ability, they might send teams all over the planet to buy food.)  Of course, what a dwarven wagon train would look like, especially considering the kind of pack beasts you'd find on that plane, is something to think about.

But again, how did 200,000 dwarves get from the Elemental Plane of Earth to Spira in the first place?  If they had any control over it, why didn't they get deposited a bit closer to their destination?  Is it just that the dwarves that went to find them left from Corsai?  And is there a reason they're all coming through at once?


----------



## Steverooo

Graywolf-ELM said:
			
		

> At a certain point, the leaders of the city, have to say.  Shut the gate, we can not sacrifice the survival of our people for the refugees.  Then either the city is closed and a semi-siege takes place, where caravans bound for the city are waylaid and the city begins to lose food and resources from the outside, or some form of system of entry is granted, with the enty a pass is given, and the person must leave by a certain time, or risk not getting a pass again.  The grounds around the city(if it is walled) become an open camp with the possibility of the spread of disease and more, unless some order is maintained for waste disposal and such.
> 
> A form of martial law gets instituted with a curfew to keep outsiders off of the streets and crime down.  passes are checked, profiling happens, gods forbid you leave your house without your resident pass, you could be thrown out of the city.




This is also (mostly) what I see (no passes, though)!  I do not, however, foresee the City Leaders as incompetent, stupid, lazy, nor re-active.  I see them as pro-active, therefore declaring Martial Law as soon as the problem becomes apparent (and they have time to discuss the options).

The City Gates would be closed at nightfall, with a curfew of Sundown.  Anyone found out after dark would have to be able to answer where they "live", or "are staying", and would be told to reach there, quickly.  An hour or so after dark, anyone caught out would be subject to questioning and/or arrest.

Those arriving at the city by night would have to rouse the guards, inside, who would tell them "No entry after nightfall!"  Now the DoD, with their connections, could get some message sent, or rouse someone to get the gates opened, but most commoners would have to wait until morning.

Outside the walls, the shanty-town, tent-city, beggar-town, ghetto/barrio would spring up, but the city council (or whatever they call themselves) would have patrols of guards, to help stop the gangs problem from developing.  The patrols would continue, after dark.

Sanitation would be required, with latrines being dug, lime brought in, and these cess-pits occassionally being dug out, and used a fertilizer.  Dumping waste into the water would be made a crime, and Potions of Sweetwater become more important.

Due to all of this, many merchants and craftsmen would see a relative boom!  Builders, stonemasons, brick-layers/-makers, carpenters, tent-makers, tanners, shepherds, ranchers, farmers, herbalists, etc.  Even the lowly charcoal-burners and torch-makers would have a relative business boom!  Cooks and shopkeeps would also see their business on a rise, for as long as they had stuff to sell!...  And when they didn't?  Why, then they'd have a pocket full of money, all ready to spend on new tools & materials to make more stuff to sell!

Hence, "Rush Fees" for those who need their stuff "right away"!  Otherwise, you'd have to wait in line to get your work done (along with everybody else)!

The crime waves would generally be confined to the tent-cit(y/ies).  Minor squabbles would be common, but the guards would stop all the major ones.  Non-City Thieves in Corsai would probably be persecuted by the local Thieves' Guild, as much as the guards, if there is a guild...  Crime within the city would be lower than normal, due to increased patrols.

Guards, fighting men, patrols, sherriffs, etc., would be needed.  Fighters of good repute (including those past their prime) would be pressed into service.  New adventurers of good repute would also be given "lower-level" commissions...  In later years, many young adventurers may recall this period as where they got their start in adventuring!  Law Enforcemnt will need a lot of new people, as well as Arcane & Divine backup!

The churches, temples, etc., will also be looking for "lay members" to help administer to the poor & needy.  Those who do a good job may eventually be inducted as non-lay priest(esse)s.

With the sudden influx of money, many craftsmen and skilled trades will be looking to take on new apprentices.  Unskilled labor will also be needed.  When the gates are opened, at daylight, a steady stream of folks will flow from the shanty-town barrios to the city square, where anyone needed unskilled laborers will go, looking for "a few good men" for any heavy lifting that needs to be done.  Others will stream in from the tent-city ghettos looking to buy food, barter for goods, beg (which will quickly be outlawed), borrow, or steal what they need.

After a short time, prices will go up.  Food will be at least 150% of the usual prices, for most anything but the dried rations that everyone tired of eating on the way here...  That will be left to the poor!  The temple soup kitchens will be crowded, and "he who will not work; neither shall he eat" will become a common phrase for weeding out the non-disabled, lazy poor shirkers.

All in all, with foresight and enough guards/militia, Corsai will be safe, happy enough, and even the poor refugees will be well enough off.  They will leave with light purses, and (perhaps) a lower opinion of the place, but in good enough health.

The guardsmen/militia, in general, will have Chain Maille Hauberks with Dastanna & Bucklers, Pikes, Shortswords, and a pair of Sap.  Pikes are used to "herd" mobs, but dropped in favor of saps, when a real riot breaks out.  Mobs will generally be armed with sticks, stones, knives, and tools, doing 1D6, at worst.  The guards' shortswords will be saved for real threats, like cornered thieves.  Some bowmen with Sleep Arrows, and a Bard/Sorcerer/Wizard & Cleric/Druid (or at least a Paladin/Ranger) per unit will do wonders.  All less than seventh level, of course!  That should handle the riff-raff.

Messengers with Boots of Speed, or more exotic methods, will zip about, carrying missives to and from the council.  Violence within the town or camps will be dealt with quickly, and summarily.  The attitude that it will NOT be tolerated will soon become clear to all.

Life within the city will get busier, during the day, but better.  Food & drink will go up, but money will flow, and more than compensate.  Life in the camps will be harder, but an industrious, ingenious person will be able to make a fortune...

A refugee Herbalist will be able to gather local healing cacti and other plants, and make herbal remidies for sale to the others, or sell the plants in town.  Either way, he makes money.  He can also barter with the poorer refugees for their stuff, then take it into town to sell, trade, ro use as raw materials, at the increased prices.

A muleskinner can quickly parley his skill into becoming a tanner's apprentice, or somesuch, moving out of the camps and into his master's shed.  He will now get trained, and paid better, for using his old skills.  To make a little extra, he could sell his old tent, and any carrying gear (backpack, etc) that he no longer needed, perhaps getting back more than he paid for them!

A local beggar-child might join the Thieves' Guild, initially staying in-camp, and reporting on the going-on in return for food.  Later, he could enter town, move up, and apprentice.  In tine, he could become a first-level Rogue.

The Herbalist could become known to the local temple, and he could have his daily takes of healing plants quickly bought out, and also be invited to come and work for them.  He moves from the camp to the temple, and goes out, every day, to look for plants.  With the remaining half-days, he is put to work doing stuff aroubd the temple, taking care of the refugees.  His Healing skills get used, and the Clerics soon begin asking if he'd like to learn the _True_ healing!...

And so it goes.  Local toghs can become militia/guards.  Local Rogues can watch out for non-guild rogues practicing their crafts within the city.  Caravan guards are needed.  Low-level Druids must police the natural resources outside the town.  Those with magical powers can make money any number of ways.  Corsai will remember these days as "The Good Old Days", before long, wishing they hadn't passed quite so fast!


----------



## Kaodi

*Well, well...*



			
				Piratecat said:
			
		

> The refugees are dwarves that have been changed by their extra-planar time on the plane of earth; they're now mithral dwarves, with silvery eyes and "blood" that is actually liquid mithral.*  Interestingly enough, they've never had to drink before, because there are no liquids on their former plane. When a wave of disease sweeps through them a few hours after their arrival, it's going to be simple thirstiness. We'll see if any PCs recognize the symptoms.
> 
> The only way a teleport circle will be mentioned is if the PCs mention it. I'm just as happy with having a huge force of armed and paranoid dwarves marching across my campaign world, seeking out the empty dwarven strongholds and displacing lord knows what dwarves/gnomes/monsters on the way.
> 
> * Yup, you bet I know what this will mean when word gets out. Don't think that isn't intentional.




This just gave me an interesting notion for a special item that many such dwarven families or clans might possess.

Bloodweapon: The most treasured family heirloom of any mithral dwarf is a weapon, often a battle axe or warhammer, that has been forged from the blood of every dwarf to wield it, and reforged every time it passes from one generation to the next. While not super powerful, the worth of one of these weapons to its proper family or clan is beyond measure. With the exception of very young weapons, all bloodweapons have a +1 enhancement bonus, and older ones usually have another low level property, such as keen, thundering, ghost touch, etc. The greatest honour that can be bestowed by a mithral dwarf family or clan is for the blood of an outsider to be added to their bloodweapon, and the greatest shame is for a  members blood to be withheld from the forging. Supposedely there is even a ritual for withdrawing the blood of a dishonoured dwarf from a bloodweapon, but tradition and law dictate that it can only be performed by the highest ranking priest or priestess of their deity available, and thus usually only the most dire betrayals are met with this punishment.


----------



## Steverooo

Piratecat said:
			
		

> The refugees are dwarves that have been changed by their extra-planar time on the plane of earth; they're now mithral dwarves, with silvery eyes and "blood" that is actually liquid mithral.*  Interestingly enough, they've never had to drink before, because there are no liquids on their former plane. When a wave of disease sweeps through them a few hours after their arrival, it's going to be simple thirstiness. We'll see if any PCs recognize the symptoms.
> 
> The only way a teleport circle will be mentioned is if the PCs mention it. I'm just as happy with having a huge force of armed and paranoid dwarves marching across my campaign world, seeking out the empty dwarven strongholds and displacing lord knows what dwarves/gnomes/monsters on the way.
> 
> * Yup, you bet I know what this will mean when word gets out. Don't think that isn't intentional.




Okay... so no crime sprees (Dwarves are Lawful)!  

I really don't see the problem, though!  They come, buy supplies, get "sick"/thirsty, get "cured", get their supplies, and leave...  Shouldn't be there long enough to cause problems...

What troubles their "paranoia" will bring, who can say?


----------



## Kilroy

Long ago, when the rules of existance were young and Magic-Users were no mere wizards, Immortals walked the earth.  The wisest among them walked gently, because they knew the the true nature of the earth upon which they walked.  The world was no random ball of dust and snow, tumbling through the cosmos.  It was a creature, asleep beyond memory, covered in the dust of eons.  Should it ever wake, it would shake off the dust of sleep from its million eyes and begin its day anew, and with that, all the works of men and gods would be undone, without it ever noticing.

I speak of course, of the living planet creature from the original D&D Boxed Set 5, Immortals Rules, last seen new when I was just a child.  I know PC's a sucker for the D&D relics. ;-)

How's this - The world is alive, not as a spirit, but as a creature of flesh and blood, and the worms are parasites that infested it when it slumbered, feeding off its nightmares.  The Traveller Gods themselves were created from its Dreams, to heal it, and the primordial terror they fled from was the stuff of nightmare itself, but this truth even the Gods themselves do not know.  Now that the worms have returned, its nightmares have begun anew, and as they grow and multiply, they will begin to manifest from the Dream Planes into waking, for the worms create much through the channeling of nightmares, the last of which being their true and final spawn.  Should the world awaken, the gods will fade as dreams at dawn.  Should the worms breed, the world will thrash and die as it is devoured from within, and the worms will again spread across the blackness, looking for new hosts.

The earth must be saved, both in body and in mind, and the worms driven from its dreams and its heart, without it ever growing awake enough to know.

It would also be an excellent chance to shake up your pantheon if the world nearly woke, and went back to sleep.  It's hard to pick up a dream right where you left off - it's always changed just a bit by whatever woke you.

[Yes, I did just read all of Sandman for the first time.]


----------



## Kilroy

You'd also have preexisting foreshadowing, because you could explain that the death of one of its Dream Guardians caused the world to briefly rouse, and magic and gods to cease to be for a brief moment.


----------



## Bryon_Soulweaver

Kilroy said:
			
		

> You'd also have preexisting foreshadowing, because you could explain that the death of one of its Dream Guardians caused the world to briefly rouse, and magic and gods to cease to be for a brief moment.



Or make a third of the world's surface turn over, destroying everything under the turned earth.


----------



## Spatzimaus

I was reading a short story the other day that got me thinking on the food supply issue.  ("The Royal Road", part of the Interstellar Patrol series)

The Dwarves arrive in Corsai first.  They have wealth, and a decent supply of food.  They'll buy some essentials they didn't realize they needed (like water), but for the most part they won't do a huge amount of damage.  Plus, they'll likely sell some of their things to the Aeosians, especially if they need to make room in their carts for the water supply.  So, they've got a good amount of wealth to use along the way, and the town hasn't been substantially affected.  If they use the Teleport Circle idea, then it's pretty much resolved at that point, so let's assume they don't.

If they stick together in one giant convoy, I don't think it's workable.  No single area in this sort of civilization can possibly feed a mass of 200,000, and everyone knows it.  (Historically, armies were almost never larger than a few tens of thousands, simply for this reason.)  So, let's assume they split into a dozen or so smaller groups.  Some are wagon trains going overland, some take the river, and so on.  Ten thousand dwarves is still a sizeable convoy, but it's now within the realm of possibility.

Each group would still need to eat.  For most, hunting/foraging simply wouldn't be worth the time; they're better off going as fast as possible, and buying as much food as they can find as they go.
Farmers aren't stupid.  They'll keep enough food to feed their own families, selling whatever extra food they have.  The townsfolk, on the other hand... while the average peasant might be smart about this, sooner or later you'll find a town run by a corrupt noble.  He'll take the Dwarves' money, and give them needed food out of the community stores.  It's not like he's the one that'd starve, after all.

Here's the catch: in a normal year in an agrarian society, there are always some areas with a surplus of food, and some with a shortage.  Bad weather does that.  Over time, it balances out, with the total food production matching closely to the local population levels (with a small buffer for safety).  So, the areas that sell food to the Dwarves believe they can make up the difference if needed; they charge exorbitant prices to the Dwarves, then buy back the needed difference from their neighbors at a net profit.  But the problem is that they don't know how many wagon trains there are.  With dozens of them all taking different paths, this year there won't be ANY areas with a surplus.  All those that had a surplus would have sold their excess, and some areas would have even sold food they needed.  Money can't be eaten; the total food supply of the region is finite, and the normal "safety buffer" was overwhelmed by the sheer number of Dwarves added to the area.

So, what are you left with?  A whole swath of towns near Corsai with plenty of wealth, but who haven't realized yet that they will starve in a month or two.  Once they figure that out (which probably won't happen until they actually try to purchase food from their neighbors), some will blame the Mithral Dwarves, but by then they'll be long gone (and that's a key point).  Many of those will then blame Dwarves in general.  Some will blame Corsai (as the only town that wasn't affected).  A few will blame the Defenders.  Food prices will start skyrocketing well before starvation kicks in.  Crime will go up, especially food raids on local farms.

So what happens?  In a nonmagical society you'd see a lot of starvation and riots before grain-carrying transports could arrive.  But here?  Imagine the Ioun and the church of Aeos sending dozens of spellcasters to summon food for the peasants, many of which would have to stay in those towns through the winter.  Magic items that create food would become extremely valuable.  Towns who lost their food supply due to corrupt nobles would lynch them, and might want to switch allegiance.  Depending on how they handle it, the end result of this could be a whole series of towns joining the Empire or wanting to be protectorates of Corsai.


----------



## Kaodi

*Corsai Is By The Desert, And Those Dwarves Are Awfully Thirsty*

Drought, Advanced Great Wyrm Blue Dragon
Gargantuan Dragon (Earth)
Hit Dice: 41d12+410 (702 hp)	
Initiative: +0	
Speed: 40 ft, burrow 20ft, fly 200ft (clumsy)	
Armor Class: 44 (-4 size, +38 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 44	
Base Attack/Grapple: +41/+68	
Attack: Bite +52 melee (4d6+15)
Full Attack: Bite +52 melee (4d6+15) plus 2 Claws +47 melee (2d8+7) plus 2 Wings +47 melee(2d6+7) plus Tail Slap +47 melee (2d8+22)	
Space/Reach: 20 ft/15 ft (20ft with bite)	
Special Attacks: Crush (4d6+22), Tail Sweep (2d6+22), Breath Weapon 24d8 (DC 42), FrightfulPresence (DC 39)
Special Qualities: Dragon Traits,  Spells, Spell-like Abilities, DR 20/Magic, DR 3/-, Immunity 
                   to Sleep and Paralysis, Immunity to Electricity, SR 33, Blindsense, Keen
                   Senses, Fast Healing 3, Acid and Sonic Resistance 10, Sound Imitation
Saves: Fort +32, Ref +22, Will +29	  
Abilities: Str 41, Dex 10, Con 31, Int 22, Wis 18, Cha 24
Skills:	Listen +48, Search +50, Spot +48, Bluff +51, Hide +32, Spellcraft +50, Concentration +54, Diplmoacy +51, Escape Artist +44, Intimidate +51, Sense Motive +48, Use Magic Device +51
Feats: Still Spell, Silent Spell, Flyby Attack, Snatch, Hover, Wingover, Ability Focus (Breath
       Weapon), Ability Focus (Frightful Presence), Enlarge Spell. Epic Feats: Damage Reduction, Fast Healing, Improved Spell Resistance, Energy Resistance (Acid 10), Energy Resistance (Sonic 10)
Environment: Temperate Deserts 	 
Organization: Solitary	
Challenge Rating: 27		
Alignment: Lawful Evil	

Spell-like Abilities: 3/day - Create/Destroy Water, Ventriloquism; 1/day - Hallucinatory
                      Terrain, Veil, Mirage Arcana

Spells - Sorcerer 17 (6/8/8/8/7/7/7/7/4, save DC 17 + Spell Level)
0 - Create Water, Cure Minor Wounds, Detect Magic, Light, Mending, Mage Hand, Arcane Mark,Prestidigitation, Open/Close
1 - Magic Missile, Mage Armour, Shield of Faith, Divine Favour, Disguise Self
2 - Eagles Splendor, Cats Grace, Bears Endurance, Detect Thoughts, Touch of Idiocy
3 - Dispel Magic, Bestow Curse, Displacement, Haste
4 - Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Scrying, Polymorph
5 - Flame Strike, Wall of Stone, Telekinesis, Cloud Kill
6 - Heal, Greater Dispel Magic, Word of Recall
7 - Control Weather, Limited Wish, Greater Arcane Sight
8 - Mind Blank, Horrid Wilting

Liberal use of the ability to destroy (and create) water is probably a great way to bring peoples in the desert under your control... Or to make it harder to find water for 200,000 thirsty dwarves...


----------



## Piratecat

Steverooo said:
			
		

> Shouldn't be there long enough to cause problems...




Heh, says you.    Not if I can help it! Some problems will be inevitable, especially since there are food shortages related to crappy weather. Corsai won't be pleased when the dwarves decimate the city's herds, for instance.

The logistics for moving a large group of people are immense, and they're in a foreign land where they don't speak the language, and they're their own army (and will be considered such by any country they move through.)  Would do clannish people do in this situation? Become more clannish and insular. Anyone who can pull them out of this and win their loyalty will reap huge rewards. It's up to the PCs whether it's Corsai or Ioun.

Spatz, great logistical analysis, and fantastic NPCs from several people. Thank you to everyone; this is helping more than you know.

I've decided on a common theme that solves several of my problems.

Problem 1: Why don't the gods come down and solve the problem of the worms?
Problem 2: How can the worms cause such damage when they breed?

Answer: when the gods remade the world, they made it alive. Not alive, but ALIVE - a living entity in and of itself, although never sentient per se*. They can no longer set foot on her without causing severe damage. It was the first heroes who trapped the worms, not the gods themselves (I may have some sort of a flashback to this). When the worms breed, they'll kill the world. Because the Gods can't sense worm-stuff (no particular reason for this, it's always been a precedent) they won't necessarily know until its too late.

* Only one person knows this, Kaolot Prisk. He's an insane street preacher in a large city on another continent, a guy who carries a "the world is ending" plaque and babbles about how she is dying. No one believes him.


----------



## Steverooo

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Because the Gods can't sense worm-stuff (no particular reason for this, it's always been a precedent) they won't necessarily know until its too late.
> 
> * Only one person knows this, Kaolot Prisk. He's an insane street preacher in a large city on another continent, a guy who carries a "the world is ending" plaque and babbles about how she is dying. No one believes him.




A man squars on the street corner, his fingers in his ears...  On his chest & back, a sign placard reads: The End is near!  

Seems the Defenders could all too easily warn them, eh?  Then what?


----------



## Spatzimaus

Piratecat said:
			
		

> It was the first heroes who trapped the worms, not the gods themselves (I may have some sort of a flashback to this).




Hmm, the obvious problem with this is that if heroes of the past trapped thousands of worms, why would the heroes of the present be so singularly unable to trap the remaining two?  Were the heroes back then all so far into Epic levels?  Were they all proxies of gods, of a type that can't be done now that the world is alive?  Did it just take tens of thousands of them?  Or all of the above?

Also, doesn't this conflict with the history you've already established?  The worms killed off the last living creature (whose cry attracted the gods), so if it wasn't the gods themselves who banished the worms, then where'd the heroes come from?  All the non-worms on the world were dead/undead.  Or was the seer who told the DoD that story just wrong?

Finally, WHY would the gods choose to remake the world as "alive" following the defeat of the original worms?  It apparently didn't give it any defense against a resurgence of the worms, and in fact it makes it harder to defend against the worms since it prevents the gods from setting foot on Spira directly.
Maybe it was just the only way they could do it.  The world had been damaged too much to rebuild in the normal way, so they had to imbue it with life.  (Thought: Is there any way of making it be that the world was directly bonded with a god?  Not many were around at that time, of course.)
Maybe it had other benefits; for instance, maybe the humans before that point were absolutely reliant on the gods, but the living planet allowed them to be self-sufficient for all of their day-to-day things, a sort of twist on the whole Tree of Knowledge thing.  On a similar note, maybe that process of making it alive is what linked it to the outer planes, allowing the dead to pass on to an afterlife.
Or, maybe it DID give the world an anti-worm defense, which Elder figured out a way around.  He was imprisoned for a LONG time, after all, I'm sure he spend some of it thinking.  In fact, maybe that very defense is what he's twisted to protect the eggs at the core of the world; the shield that was supposed to keep the worms out is now keeping anyone from getting to them.  Of course, the question of how the worms got through remains, but this is where you can tie in some ritual that'd require a worm to sacrifice himself if you want to dispose of Elder.

----------
Put it all together:

The worms destroyed the links that connected Spira to the rest of the universe when they first arrived, so that no one would disrupt their feeding.  They then destroyed all of the people of the world, but their spirits were trapped on the dead world, powerless to do anything about the worms now rampaging across the surface.  The gods show up, and see this.  They imbue the spirits with a sizeable fraction of their own power, giving them the ability to fight the worms one final time.
Hundreds of thousands of warrior ghosts, raised to Epic-level power by the gods, throw themselves at the worms on the surface of the dead world.  Most are destroyed before they can land a single blow, but their purpose isn't to WIN, they're just buying time while the spellcasters complete a ritual spell.  They hold, just long enough.
The spell that's cast can simply be described as an outright rejection of That Which Should Not Be.  Everything on the world that shouldn't be there is affected; those that successfully resist are banished, those that fail are destroyed.  Elder and his mate manage to survive through sheer force of will and magical ability, but the rest are locked away.
Once this is complete, the gods raise the world to life, to allow it to heal and to restore its connections to the planes.  This allows the spirits to pass on to the afterlife, and allows for the modern races to be created.

Agar gets a vision.  An army of glowing spirits, futilely throwing themselves at an oncoming rush of worms.  Most spirits are batted aside without effort, but enough get through to impede the worms before being destroyed.  Just before the worms reach a circle of chanting spirits, a blinding white flash goes off that vaporizes the ones nearby, and yanks the rest off to their prison.
I just like the idea of an army of undead saving the world; what would Malachite think?  And if you really wanted to, you could have the players try to track down one of the surviving spirits in his afterlife... of course, since they didn't worship the gods, the survivors wouldn't have gone to the usual places.

This gives plenty of reasons why you couldn't repeat the ritual in the modern day.  For one, realize how many planar travelers pass through a world on a given day?  Anything that banished all non-natives would get rid of far more than two worms.  Gith monks, phoenixes bonded to souls, angels that protect old priests, mercanes who've set up shop in the Underdark... there's a lot of traffic between planes in the modern day, especially among the most powerful.
Second, there simply isn't an army comparable to the spirits.  Now that they know what to watch for, no one could protect the spellcasters from Elder and his mate long enough.  (Corollary: if Elder and his mate die in the process of birthing their swarm, you COULD pull it off.)
Finally, the gods had to give some of their power to the spirits... power they didn't get back from all the ones that were destroyed.  The gods are weaker now than they were then, and if they were to try that again, they'd weaken themselves even further.  Plus, some of the more evil gods would choose not to contribute, so that they could take over afterwards.  While the good gods care about Spira, they don't care THAT much.


----------



## Piratecat

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> Hmm, the obvious problem with this is that if heroes of the past trapped thousands of worms, why would the heroes of the present be so singularly unable to trap the remaining two?




My bad. The gods booted out all the worms but two that they missed, then they remade the world. The new heroes of that world chained the last two. I was unclear, which may have lead to most of your objections.

It may be interesting to borrow from the superb game Fireborn and have the PCs flash back to become those heroes... and discover that they were dragons.  This was pre-human, by my mythology, since I've established an age of lizards.



> Finally, WHY would the gods choose to remake the world as "alive" following the defeat of the original worms?  It apparently didn't give it any defense against a resurgence of the worms, and in fact it makes it harder to defend against the worms since it prevents the gods from setting foot on Spira directly.




I can see this as an unintentional result of breathing life into the world to reawaken its dead husk. Mind you, I'm totally back-filling here, but it needs to be plausible. World is dead, Gods scour world and boot worms, gods breath life into new world (only one god back then, actually; the rest came after), world awakens spontaneously after life has already been created, Gods find themselves physically barred without causing great harm, gods intentionally forbid themselves from returning. Voila - plausible deniability that will fit into my mythos as established.



> Maybe it was just the only way they could do it.  The world had been damaged too much to rebuild in the normal way, so they had to imbue it with life.  (Thought: Is there any way of making it be that the world was directly bonded with a god?  Not many were around at that time, of course.)




Daaaam. Although it isn't talked about much, a little known sect believes that the creator god is dead or departed. If he bonded with Spira, that's a nice touch.



> Or, maybe it DID give the world an anti-worm defense, which Elder figured out a way around.  He was imprisoned for a LONG time, after all, I'm sure he spend some of it thinking.  In fact, maybe that very defense is what he's twisted to protect the eggs at the core of the world; the shield that was supposed to keep the worms out is now keeping anyone from getting to them.




Bing! We have a winner. I'll think about this, and about your suggestion.

I'm traveling for a week - I'll check in every few days!


----------



## thatdarncat

Hey Kevin, did you get my PM?


----------



## Spatzimaus

Piratecat said:
			
		

> gods breath life into new world (only one god back then, actually; the rest came after),




Hmm.  I thought you mentioned in the SH that it was Abbath, his wife Aedrae, and Trea who showed up and defeated the worms.  Was there some god before them?  If not, then that even makes things better; if you've never detailed exactly what treachery Trea used to kill Abbath was, this could be it.  When he went to breathe life into the world, Trea caused him to be absorbed into it in the process.  He's technically still "alive" in the sense that a tree is; no intelligence, no consciousness, but the ability to react on a long timescale.  So, when the plates shift and climates change, it's because he wanted it to, in his unconscious way.
This also gives a really good reason for the worms to want to get to the center of the world; it's the "heart" of a creator god in a very literal sense.  And, it provides a good reason why the other gods can't/won't come down; they don't want to intrude into the "domain" of their father/grandfather any more than they'd want to kill each other... oh wait.

The big problem with this idea is that it'd mean he was effectively dead well before any living beings were there to make him the "God of Explorers", and he DID give birth to Quenntil and Celian before dying.  On the other hand, both of those kids' domains are things that can pre-date the rebirth of the world.  So, you could easily say that all of the second-generation gods (Aeos, Deifos, Galanna, etc.) were born before this happened.  The gods clean up the worms, have a bunch of kids to help them run things, THEN try to restart life on the planet.

This reminds me of a question I wanted to ask.  In the story, we're constantly hearing about the churches of second- and even third-generation gods.  Doesn't anyone still worship Aedrae or Trea?  It just seems strange that there's no mention of them; it'd be like a Greek society that never mentions Zeus or Hera.  Okay, Trea's domains aren't something you'd see much of in most cities (although I'd think in politically-savvy towns like Eversink that there'd be a church that quietly worships the less evil aspects of manipulation), but no one worships the Goddess of Fate?


----------



## Spatzimaus

Yes, posting again, I'm at work and got bored.  Just went back and re-read the seer's actual words that you posted in the SH:
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=259124&postcount=218
Specifically, this paragraph:

"But the First God Abbath called to him his love Aedrae and her clever friend Trea, and showed them the world, and showed them the worms and the mumbling dead. It was Trea the clever, Trea the Deceiver, who thought of the plan. It was she who tricked the worms, and convinced them to trust her, and soon all but two were locked in a red prison where they would never escape. The Gods set the lock in stone and breathed life into the key. And they looked upon the worm-riddled world, and Abbath breathed upon it. He fathered a child with his wife, and called him Aeos, and lifted the incandescent child into the heavens. There, the Godling ignited the endless night and brought the sun to a world that knew only darkness, and he forged chains of light to bind the last two worms within the earth. The dead were burned from the pitted world, and the globe was made anew."

Okay, the elf might not have been perfect.  He DID say that Aeos was the one who locked the last two worms down, after all, and you're saying that it was heroes who did it (or maybe they did all the dangerous work, but needed him to finish the job by putting a lock on the door?).  But the rest of this fits pretty well with the concept I mentioned in the last post; the seer said that Abbath breathed on it and fathered children, but you could always say that it actually happened the other way around, and that Abbath "breathing" on the world could simply be a misinterpretation of an event so far beyond mortals as to be unintelligible.  And this does explain why the lower tiers of your pantheon are worshipped so heavily; by the time worshippers actually started appearing, there was no overshadowing Zeus/Odin father to keep them all in check.

Incidentally, this led me to thinking; you can't really worship a god that's dead, so who's been worshipping Abbath as the God of Explorers?  Under normal circumstances, it'd be pretty clear to the priests when a deity dies.  But if Abbath didn't entirely die, like we've mentioned, then he'd be in a more indeterminate state for that; he wouldn't be able to grant divine power directly (i.e. spells), but he WOULD be able to give power in a more passive sense (spell-less Paladins?  PrCs?), along with the occasional miracle.  And who'd worship a God of Explorers?  Bards, Rangers, wanderers in general (Horizon Walkers!)... exactly the sort of people that a half-awake god bonded to the planet would be most connected to, and still be able to grant power to.  So in that sense, he's a perfect match.  The "official" churches might think he's dead, since no one's ever been able to call on him directly, but there are always stories of prayers to him being answered...

But there's something I've been stuck on for a while.  If Abbath, Aedrae, and Trea were the first gods of post-Worm Spira, and created the lizards and such... where'd the gods of the other races come in?  You've mentioned the Dwarven gods (like Moradin), plus gods of the Illithids, and even Mog, the Beetle God.  Did they all show up after Abbath and company had done the hard work, and set up their own little domains?  (Was it just that they, like Abbath, already existed on the outer planes before Spira was born?)  Why is it that Humans and Elves worship the descendants of the creator god, but no one else seems to?

And if you want to get really nasty to the players: when Galanna killed Imbindarla, there were all sorts of calamities.  What'd happen if one Illithid god killed the other?  The main races would never even know there was a problem until all sorts of horrible things started happening.


----------



## The_Warlock

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> "...and soon all but two were locked in a red prison where they would never escape. The Gods set the lock in stone and breathed life into the key."




Here's my question...where is the Red Prison that the other worms got trapped in? Could it be accessed by the Defenders, and find there, starved of the souls of worlds, the great dead husks of the ancient worms, a huge writhing of stonelike annelid bodies the size of aircraft carriers, frozen in place, dried out, and yet caught in some form of undeath, irony having a hand in the eternal imprisonment. Not the vile level draining, attribute sucking undead, but sort of a ghostly mental essence, and if the Defenders travel through the worms, the dried tracings of the inner veins and organs can trigger powerful and painful mental flashbacks of the worms remembering the deception and imprisonment from the worms point of view. 

The big question to me is how did Elder and the other worm escape, and when were they noticed and bound in chains of light? 

"There, the Godling ignited the endless night and brought the sun to a world that knew only darkness, and he forged chains of light to bind the last two worms within the earth. The dead were burned from the pitted world, and the globe was made anew."

This part can allow for a lot of interpretation, especially in terms of the passage of time. While it states grammatically that the globe was made anew after the binding of the worms with chains of light, Aeos had already brought light to a world in darkness. The first races, as agents of the gods, could have been birthed in that arrival of light, and the world could technically already have been filled with life, and then the last two worms are found in the living world, and champion races are led in a jihad to contain them, empowered with Aeos light. 

Also, given the sentence preceding the above, it could be argued seers and historians have misremembered or misordered the wording, and that while Aeos brought the light, he didn't forge the chains of light, but instead Abbath forged the chains of light from the radiance of his son. That forging could have been the process whereby Abbath was somehow lost, but gave his essence to his companion goddess to birth more gods to protect the world in his absence.

But that's me being overly complicated. It happens when you run a game based on a prophecy from an empire that got so thoroughly devastated that nobody knows how the empire fell, let alone have accurate records of their diviners.


----------



## Spatzimaus

The_One_Warlock said:
			
		

> Here's my question...where is the Red Prison that the other worms got trapped in?




It's Carceri.  Or at least that's what Piratecat told us at one point.  You know, plane of Lawful Evil?  Although, that does beg the question of why none of them ever learned how to _Plane Shift_ to somewhere more interesting...


----------



## The_Warlock

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> It's Carceri.  Or at least that's what Piratecat told us at one point.  You know, plane of Lawful Evil?  Although, that does beg the question of why none of them ever learned how to _Plane Shift_ to somewhere more interesting...




Ah, I must have missed or forgotten about that at some point...because there's a deucedly interesting visual...the pearl like "worlds" of carceri strung through their own infinity...and either the worms eating an endless buffet of doomed prisoner proto-worlds and never getting sustenance, but tied inexorably to the plane and unable to flee because they are literally "full of it", or a point in the depths of Othrys (is that the "deepest" layer with the tiny frozen worlds with the greatest gaps between them??) where the next "world" is the deepest prison of Spira...and is nothing but the tangled ball of dead/undead/still writhing Great Worms. (That's not moon, it's a Worm Station!)


----------



## Steverooo

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> Yes, posting again, I'm at work and got bored.  Just went back and re-read the seer's actual words that you posted in the SH:
> http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=259124&postcount=218
> Specifically, this paragraph:
> 
> "But the First God Abbath called to him his love Aedrae and her clever friend Trea, and showed them the world, and showed them the worms and the mumbling dead. It was Trea the clever, Trea the Deceiver, who thought of the plan. It was she who tricked the worms, and convinced them to trust her, and soon all but two were locked in a red prison where they would never escape. The Gods set the lock in stone and breathed life into the key. And they looked upon the worm-riddled world, and Abbath breathed upon it. He fathered a child with his wife, and called him Aeos, and lifted the incandescent child into the heavens. There, the Godling ignited the endless night and brought the sun to a world that knew only darkness, and he forged chains of light to bind the last two worms within the earth. The dead were burned from the pitted world, and the globe was made anew."
> 
> Okay, the elf might not have been perfect.  He DID say that Aeos was the one who locked the last two worms down, after all, and you're saying that it was heroes who did it (or maybe they did all the dangerous work, but needed him to finish the job by putting a lock on the door?).




Nope, read it, again: "...and he forged chains of light to bind the last two worms within the earth."  He forged the chains.  No mention of him using them, nor binding the worms...  Insert Heroes, here.


----------



## Steverooo

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> The big problem with this idea is that it'd mean he was effectively dead well before any living beings were there to make him the "God of Explorers", and he DID give birth to Quenntil and Celian before dying.




_That is not dead, which can eternal lie,
And with Strange Aeons, even Death may die!_


----------



## Steverooo

*Steve-a-Ryu Interprets Ancient Prophecy:*



			
				The-Bloody-eyed-Ancient-Elven-Seer said:
			
		

> "...But the First God Abbath called to him his love Aedrae and her clever friend Trea, and showed them the world, and showed them the worms and the mumbling dead. It was Trea the clever, Trea the Deceiver, who thought of the plan. It was she who tricked the worms, and convinced them to trust her, and soon all but two were locked in a red prison where they would never escape. *The Gods set the lock in stone and breathed life into the key*. And they looked upon the worm-riddled world, and Abbath breathed upon it. He fathered a child with his wife, and called him Aeos, and lifted the incandescent child into the heavens...




Abbath & Aedrae = the lock/capstone
Aeos = the sun/son
Spira =  the Key into which Life was breathed/earth/daughter

Thus, Abbath & Aedrae passed from mortal ken, becoming the lock (capstone) which binds the worms to the world, and their daughter the key which allows access to/escape from it.  And though they are bound, sleeping, keeping the world safe, and the worms locked away, they are not dead, and together they brought forth two children, in time: Aeos, the sun, elder brother of Spira, the world.

And Aeos, seeing the two free worms with his new, piercing vision, forged chains of sunlight to bind the worms, and at the end of an age, when they had cooled, sent them to Tulkas, who wielded the chains, and wrestled with the twain.  And with the aid of his companions, they were bound to the new-born babe, Spira, and a new age of life began...

And it endured... until Galanna slew Imbindarla, and magic died.  The powers of darkness were released... the light was overcome, and for a brief time, Aeos' chains ceased to be.  

Then Elder and his mate, wisest & wariest of worms, were freed.  For a long age they have plotted, and hated.  Countless lives of man have they had to plan...  And yet, they do not seek to turn the Key, and open the Lock?  Why?

Perhaps they fear Abbath & Aerdre, who even yet bind all their kin?  Perhaps they fear their children?  Surely they wish ALL of us harm?  So why have they not sought to free their kin?  Surely the other worms' thirsts for vengeance is as great as their own, and they will not trust the gods, nor be bound, again...

So what else can they be planning?  To take the Key, but not open the Lock?  But why?...  To harmthe children?  If a man in a wood encounters bears, and is trapped in their cave, when he is freed (knowing that he cannot defeat the bears), does he attack the cubs?  For what purpose?...

It must be the Key...  You say Teliez took Imbindarla's power of Undeath, but what of Crawling Things, and Darkness?  Did he take those?  If not, then perhaps the Worms did...  Darkness to defeat Aeos' Light; Crawling Things... Things that Crawl in Darkness... and the Key of Life...  Surely this all adds up to something, if I could just wrap my mind around it...

But I am very tired...  I cannot sleep, for every time that I try, I wake. screaming...


----------



## Steverooo

Hence, Abbath & Aerdre's "abscence" from the world, while still being "worshippable", and granting high-level spells (in 1e, minions could grant mid-level ones).

Hence, the Worm's wanting to gain control of Spira, to use her to both breath life into new wormlets, and take it from her.  They could also use her to open the Lock, freeing their fellow Worms, as well as Abbath & Aerdre (which is pro'ly why they won't DO that)!  

If Trea also needs to be tied up/gotten rid of, she can be down in the hole with all of the other Worms!    That'll teach Her!  

Any problems with this one, PC?  From what I understand of your plans, it seems to combine all the needed elements...  Using Spira's powers of Life to breed more Worms, killing her in the process; making heroes necessary to chaining the Worms; tying up the original godlets, while still allowing for Abbath & Aerdre to (somehow) form new ones, while they're "asleep"...  Any No-nos?


----------



## Spatzimaus

Yet again, I'm at work, a bit bored, and I've started thinking on this.

One question we mentioned earlier: when the gods did their big, powerful thing and banished all of the Worms to Carceri, how'd they miss two?  And coincidentally, they missed a mated pair?  (Okay, maybe they weren't a mated pair at the time, and worms are hermaphroditic, so the whole one-of-each-gender coincidence isn't really important if you don't want it to be.)

My thought was this: what if they didn't miss any?  What if Elder and his mate were banished to Carceri, right along with all the others, and he's just the only one that had the ability to ESCAPE?  Something must be holding the other worms there.  Okay, if they're now an integral part of a plane, with a constant stream of worlds fed to them for consumption, then they're probably not too put out about it.  But something must be preventing them from leaving, and maybe Elder's the only one who figured out a way around that.  Or maybe more of the Worms COULD leave, but only Elder and Elderette chose to try coming back to Spira; the rest of the Worms could have written it off.  Who knows why; unpleasant climate, hostile gods, bad access to schools and shopping...

Either way, the Eldertons come back to Spira after a few eons have passed, to try and regain power now that the gods are being less "hands on" about the place.  Unfortunately, they underestimate the ability of the new inhabitants to resist, and get trapped.  But time passes.  Dragons get replaced by elves and later, humans as the dominant lifeform.  The gods fight among themselves, while having less and less direct contact with the mortals.  Elder foresees a big opportunity, as one major god will die in a way that'll disrupt things (including his prison), as well as providing a means to gain even more power.
And that's the real downside to this concept: if Elder had the ability to leave Carceri, then he also has the ability to leave Spira.  So, if his kid-spawning plan fails as badly as his Imbindarla-eating one did, he could always just leave the plane.

But, this also explains one other discrepancy in the prophecies: there's just too much time to work with.  That is, too much happened in between the time the rest of the Worms were banished and the time when Elder and his mate were found and imprisoned.  A pantheon of gods were born, life was breathed into the world, the lizard race grew into a civilization, complete with heroes... and THEN they find two planet-devouring Worms still around?  What were the two doing in the interim?  How'd the gods not notice them when life was being breathed into the world?  If you can say that they simply weren't there, it solves all of these.


----------



## The_Warlock

Well, there are other options with regard to the amount of time that passed, especially since we aren't limited to scientific measurements of life being created. 

Elder and Elderette could have been deep in Spira, plotting and planning, and it was finally the trembling of the world which made the living races (created by the gods) recognize the danger and call for aid to trap the beasts. 

Perhaps they were dormant...essentially they escaped the first binding, but were horribly wounded, burrowed deep into Spira, and went into hibernation to heal and recharge their power, actually parasitizing the newly living world. This would explain their disappearance and why they were hard to find, even Aeos light/sight doesn't pierce all the depths of the world.

Another thought is maybe they dispersed, shattering their vile spirits into the lesser worms of the world (from earthworm to purple worm), so that they could not be seen as whole entities, while they watched the growing world, regained their strength and plotted in secret, since who thinks a lowly earthworm in a spy. When they thought they had a plan, they reformed, only to find that Aeos had been wise to them, and set in motion a series of events so that Elder thought he would have a chance to bring destruction - instead Aeos had the heroes of the day lay a trap with the chains of light, because he needed the worms in undispersed form to truly bind them.

Not that I don't think him escaping from Carceri is a valid option, it just seems to go more against the grain of what we've heard before.

Of course, frankly, I think the first gods should have captured the worms, put them in a celestial bucket, and used them to fish for far realm entities, but some people might think that's too much.


----------



## Piratecat

The best kind of designing is the kind where you are on vacation, and other people are coming up with better ideas than yours.  

On my way to the beach in Santa Clara -- comments this evening.


----------



## Steverooo

*Comments?*

???


----------



## Piratecat

I'm back! And an update is posted. Stay tuned for comments hereabouts -- I'm trying to make some decisions about my game before I go too far.


----------



## warcabbit

Pkitty? Finished reading the relevant bits. You get my emails? I sent them through the system on here.


----------



## Piratecat

I did - was away for weekend, and things are chaotic. Not ignoring you or this thread, but I'm emceeing the ENnies this week at GenCon and am making sure that all my ducks are in a row for that.


----------



## warcabbit

Oh, that's just fine. This was simply the first time I used the Enworld 'send mail to people' system, and wasn't entirely sure it was functional. 

Have fun!


----------



## frankthedm

Hill Giant: Advanced and changed feets.

Rock Lobber tribe Hill Giant- Steel skinned-lobber[war4]
Size/Type:Large Giant
Hit Dice: 16d8+ 64=136
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft. in full plate armor (6 squares); base speed 40 ft.
Armor Class: 28 (-1 size, +0 Dex, +9 natural, +2 large wooden shield [door]+8 full plate armor), touch 9, flat-footed 27
Base Attack/Grapple:+13/+24
Attack :Greatsword +19 melee (3d6+10) or slam +19 melee (1d4+7) or rock +14 ranged (2d6+7 19-20 crit) or masterwork throwing rock +15 ranged (2d6+8 19-20 crit)
Full Attack: Greatsword +19/+14/+7 melee (3d6+10) or 2 slams +17 melee (1d4+7) or rock +14 /+9/+4 ranged (2d6+8 19-20 crit) or masterwork throwing rock +15/+10/+5 ranged (2d6+8 19-20 crit)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Rock throwing
Special Qualities:  Low-light vision, rock catching
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +5, Will +8
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 6, Wis 13, Cha 4
Skills: Climb +7, Jump +7, Listen +4, Spot +11
Feats: point blank shot [ 1hd} {far shot [240’ rock increment]{3hd} Weapon Focus (thrown rock){6hd}, quickdraw{9hd} improved critical [thrown rock]{12hd} Iron will{15HD}
Challenge Rating: 9
Treasure: Standard, plus reinforced bags, 6 masterwork throwing rocks 50lb each & 6 or more normal rocks 50 lb each 2 potions of See invisibility in dagger hilt vials.
Alignment: Often chaotic evil
Note on loads: Up to 400lb Light, 800lb medium 1200max.


*Rock Lobber tribe Hill Giant- Boss hurl  [war10]*
Size/Type:Large Giant
Hit Dice: 12d8+36 +10d8+30 =(171hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. in full plate (6 squares); base speed 40 ft.
Armor Class: 32(-1 size, +1 Dex, +9 natural, +3 large wooden shield [door]+9 full plate armor), touch 9, flat-footed 31
Base Attack/Grapple:+19/+28 [str +8 dex+1
Attack: Masterwork Greatsword +29 melee (3d6+12) or slam +28 melee (1d4+7) or rock +21 ranged (2d6+8 19-20 crit) or masterwork throwing rock +22 ranged (2d6+7 19-20 crit)
Masterwork Greatsword +29 /+24/+19/+14 melee (3d6+12) or 2 slams +28 melee (1d4+7) or rock +21 /+16/ +11 /+6 ranged (2d6+8 19-20 crit) or masterwork throwing rock +22/+17/+12/+7 ranged (2d6+7 19-20 crit)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Rock throwing
Special Qualities:  Low-light vision, rock catching
Saves: Fort +18, Ref +7, Will +10
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Climb +8, Jump +8, Listen +4, Spot +17
Feats: point blank shot {1hd}, far shot [240’ rock increment]{3hd} Weapon Focus (thrown rock){6hd}, quickdraw{9hd} improved critical [thrown rock]{12hd} Iron will {15} precise shot [18] rapid shot{21}
Challenge Rating: 13
Treasure: Standard, *+1 giant sized full plate, +1 giant sized large wooden shield, +1 returning dwarf bane boulder *plus reinforced bags, 6 masterwork throwing rocks 50lb each & 6 or more normal rocks 50 lb each
Alignment: Often chaotic evil
Note on loads: Up to 400lb Light, 800lb medium 1200max.


----------



## Steverooo

*"Would you like any help with that, Sir?"*

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=145461


----------



## Karrde723

*Some ideas*

I haven't read all of the ideas here but here are a few.

1.  If I remember correctly, there was a room in Kodali's Retreat that looked out over worlds/planes that were being destroyed.  Well what if the current world that was dying had information or powerful people on it that had actually witnessed the worms destruction/imprisonment.  This'll make the PCs race against time to get to the plane, get the information, and get off before the whole world is destroyed.  And with a plethora of monsters and desperate inhabitants trying to escape the world's destruction, it should make for an interesting adventure.

2.  It wasn't two worms that escaped, it was three.  The first two were sealed away by the valient heroes of old (Defenders of Spira?).  All but one of the heroes died in the binding of the worms but then the third worm surfaced.  Following an epic struggle, the sole surviving hero (a wizard, the first maybe?) uses his magic to bind the worm in his spellbook, but also bound himself in the process.  So the PCs find it through any number of quests that have already been mentioned here and they have a first hand account of fighing the worms.  Of course if you really want to be rat bastardy, you could have the trapped worm pretend to be the hero and trick the PCs into freeing him from the book.  Or you could just have the hero try to convince the heroes not to try to stop the worms, recounting the gory, soul-crushing deaths of his fellow heroes in their fight against the worms, creating the threat of this being the FINAL adventure of the Defenders of Daybreak.  This could also give the PCs an insight into what the worms might be planning, especially if they speak to the trapped worm, and thus lead into PCat's plan for what the worms are really doing.  (It could also be a chance to give Agar an artifact of his very own.)

3.  Maybe the worms CAN'T be destroyed, not even by the gods.  Maybe two worms will always exist to eventually bring about the end of the world.  The only thing the PCs can do is delay the worms by reimprisoning them.  This is only for two of the worms though, so if the worms are breeding then they lose thier invulnerability until all but two of their kind are slain.  This way, the worms can still be beaten by the PCs in combat, but there's still a plausible reason why they have such reputations as tough SOBs (cause they are when there're only two of 'em).

Anyways those are just a few of the ideas I can think of right now (hopefully at least one of them is new).

Karrde

Oh and I just wanted to say fantastic storyhour PCat, it's one of the best fantasy stories I've read in years (including many books).  I only found this Story Hour last week and I've already read everything since the pirate ambush back in Eversink.


----------



## Kaodi

*Where Art Thou, Oh Three-Legged Kitty?*

Once again I take up the mantle of the Threadbearer and invoke the awesome power of the
~\//\ BUMP /\\/~ !


----------



## Corbert

Help.  I know this question has been asked before, but not by me   .  Where can I find the Rider of the Flame prestige class that Nolin had from being joined with a Phoenix?  I'm considering letting a player in my game take it, but I have to review it to see if it fits first.


----------



## JacktheRabbit

Karrde723 said:
			
		

> 3.  Maybe the worms CAN'T be destroyed, not even by the gods.  Maybe two worms will always exist to eventually bring about the end of the world.  The only thing the PCs can do is delay the worms by reimprisoning them.  This is only for two of the worms though, so if the worms are breeding then they lose thier invulnerability until all but two of their kind are slain.  This way, the worms can still be beaten by the PCs in combat, but there's still a plausible reason why they have such reputations as tough SOBs (cause they are when there're only two of 'em).




If you want to be a real bastard then you make it that the last two cannot be slain but that does not automatically mean the two oldest ones. Sure that is what everyone will think that the two origional worms cannot be slain but the truth is as they breed they spread out their soul and then as they are killed off that soul becomes more concentrated in the remaining ones. So finally when only two are left those two are unkillable.

Of course the two eldest worms are the smartest and know this fact. So they make very sure they are never attackable unless the heroes have killed all of the other worms.

This could lead to a very odd final battle where the heroes encounter the last 4 worms only to see with confusion two of the worms quickly slay the other two.


----------



## Spatzimaus

No, this isn't a bump.  How dare anyone suggest that.  What this is the 1300th post in the thread.  I like round numbers, and figured it could use it.

I also like pie.  Mmmm, pie.


----------



## Kaodi

*What?*

You're so wrong, Spatzimaus! You're only the second 1300th post! hehehe...


----------



## Piratecat

This is true!

I will probably end up closing this thread and starting a new one. Just so you know, I have most of the worm issues and mythology worked out at this point, and the discussion here certainly helped. I still have some major inconsistencies about timing and what God did what when, but I'm hoping that my players write that off to the haziness of prehistory.  Shhh, no one call me on it!  

My questions right now are two interesting ones:

1. If Velendo holds what is effectively a giant conference with the most powerful people in thr world, all os he can discuss the worms, what would you do to make those game be fun and not drudgery?

2. How might the githyanki losing an artifact-level silver sword (to Galthia, a githzerai), a sword that is more important for its mythic and historical status than its raw power, bring down the reign of the githyanki lich-queen?

Thanks!


----------



## thatdarncat

> 2. How might the githyanki losing an artifact-level silver sword (to Galthia, a githzerai), a sword that is more important for its mythic and historical status than its raw power, bring down the reign of the githyanki lich-queen?




Consider it in terms of real world royalty. Without their "symbols of office" ie crown jewels, what do they have to show their authority?


----------



## Spatzimaus

Piratecat said:
			
		

> 1. If Velendo holds what is effectively a giant conference with the most powerful people in thr world, all os he can discuss the worms, what would you do to make those game be fun and not drudgery?




While the Defenders are probably the only ones alive who've seen an actual worm, most of them probably wouldn't be involved in that sort of discussion.  Some are implementers of plans, not formulators; some do tactics, not strategy; some use swords, while magic will be the key here.  So some (like Galthia) wouldn't be involved.  The exceptions would probably be Velendo and Agar, and Stone Bear would be personally involved due to his time with Elder.

The obvious answer is to let the party members play other key NPCs.  Not Ioun, but heads of some of the other power blocs, especially those that don't bring any information to the table.  But, they'll have political power, and the will to use it to further their own private agendas.  All that power in one place would have natural consequences; some of these groups would hate each other (or be in actual declared wars), and while they might recognize the need to defeat the worms, that doesn't mean they'll put aside their differences; they might think that the group would have a BETTER chance if the "disruptive influence" was removed.  Some would just use this meeting as an excuse to force other negotiations (say, if Ioun refused to participate unless Corsai joined his empire once and for all) or demand reparations for past offenses.  To top it all off, there's probably someone out there who'd want to take this opportunity to wipe out all of those people at once (say, someone who worships the worms?)

(This was based on a really fun adventure I played in a long time ago.  In a human kingdom, the prince was about to marry an elven princess from the neighboring empire; some people were for it, others against.  We were all ~15th level, and each character was one of the key figures in the region (head of the assassin's guild, king's advisor, king's younger brother, demon, a few mercenary adventurers, and so on).  For a few weeks, we plotted, negotiated, bribed, attempted assassinations, etc., all leading up to a major civil war.  It was great as a short-term adventure; the DM just sat back and helped determine if each players' plans would work.)

The big questions:
> What do you want them to accomplish at this meeting?  Do they know enough about the worms' plan to be able to actually strategize?  Do you want it to remain purely about the worms, or will other political matters end up being resolved at this time?
> Do you already know of a way to defeat the worms?  If so, are you trying to lead them towards that, or is it something they'll need to figure out themselves?
> Which are the most powerful gods in your pantheon?  If it's by age, I'd assume Aedrae and Trea, but I've never seen their churches mentioned in the story hour.  Presumably, any powerful churches would send representatives; it wouldn't all fall on Calphas, Galanna, and Aeos to handle.

If you decided that it'd take the Gods themselves to capture the worms, you could even combine all of these suggestions; give each of the players an actual god to work with, and play out the actual battle using all the deity rules.  After all, it seems sort of ridiculous that a group of mortals will somehow beat an enemy the gods had a hard time with, AND it's definitely a situation that'd motivate the gods to take direct action.  Seems like a good end-of-campaign tangent to go off on.



			
				Piratecat said:
			
		

> 2. How might the githyanki losing an artifact-level silver sword (to Galthia, a githzerai), a sword that is more important for its mythic and historical status than its raw power, bring down the reign of the githyanki lich-queen?




Well, how he got it might make a difference, but the short version in my mind is that it'd trigger a "final war" scenario; that is, it's the one thing so unacceptable that the githyanki would throw everything into the war against the githzerai, before they're really ready for it.  That might give the natural edge to the githzerai, once the first battles are past, and the end result of that might be the lich-queen losing once and for all.  But, this assumes he JUST acquired it; if he's had it for a while now, that logic probably wouldn't work.
(Actually, this is kinda similar to the suggestion we had made for Agar's wedding; reacquiring the sword would force the Big Bad to take unacceptable risks to get it back, which could end up making things worse as the players foil the plots.)

Another possibility is pretty cliche'd: by destroying the artifact, Galthia would weaken its maker.  (Just played the ToEE video game)  The plus side here is that a sword doesn't really seem like something Galthia would use, so it's not like it's doing him much good as is.  What'd be really funny is if you could tie this into Mechanus' fate.  As in, using an artifact of Chaos to force the lich-queen to travel to a plane of Law, where she'd be much weaker... nah, too close to how the Ivory King was beaten.  But the Modrons have to be involved somehow.


----------



## Sandain

1. If Velendo holds what is effectively a giant conference with the most powerful people in thr world, all os he can discuss the worms, what would you do to make those game be fun and not drudgery?


Well, all players could be involved.  The Elder brain may request galthia is his representative, Paladins would represent thier god and chruch, The casters and psions would be there as themselves.

Also, you could make it really fun and schedule a telephone conference with your retired players - the mages and druids who moved to the west coast perhaps?

A conferance like this should be enjoyable for some resons, while being serious about the threat.


----------



## Piratecat

In terms of the conference, I think Spatz has the right of it. This should be a chance for Velendo to shine. I'll probably give personalities of NPCs from every church to all the players, and let them abuse poor Sagiro while he tries to swing them to his cause.  

You know, I was just thinking what a pain it'd be to write up the personalities, then I realized I was being a doof. You folks wanna help? Please?

Spatz, I can't answer your questions without big honking spoilers. The short answer (since I'm headed to bed) is that Trea plays a huge role in the current story arc, and I've still done virtually nothing with Aedrae; she's a blank canvass to draw on.

Regarding the sword, I'm pondering the role of myth in kingbuilding. I'm also overthinking this WAY too much. I think I may have the PCs journey to Hell and free the essence of the original Gith herself. That would topple Vlaakith almost certainly, even if I have to strain credulity a bit to make it happen, and it gets them where I want them for another plot hook.

It's worth thinking about.


----------



## Sandain

hrm didn't the Modron march tie in with the Dead Gods module? what if the dead god was Gith (rank 0 diety) instead of Orcus?  The players couldve stopped a lot of grief if the'd acted years ago.

Using old enemies and allies from Eversink may be fun? and of course our favourite undead sorceror should make an appearance...he is a valid power in the world after all, same as the Elder brain is.


----------



## Spatzimaus

Piratecat said:
			
		

> This should be a chance for Velendo to shine. I'll probably give personalities of NPCs from every church to all the players, and let them abuse poor Sagiro while he tries to swing them to his cause.




Why limit it to only religious types?  There must be some others that would be powerful enough to get involved (Ioun, for instance).  Also, since you haven't given details, I'm not sure why he'd even NEED to convince anyone.  If it's pretty self-evident that Worms Are Bad, something the gods themselves agree with, then it only remains to prove that the worms still exist and have plans, both of which became obvious when Elder went after Imbindarla's job.



> You know, I was just thinking what a pain it'd be to write up the personalities, then I realized I was being a doof. You folks wanna help? Please?




Sounds like fun, although it'd help if you already had a rough idea of which NPCs/factions are involved.



> Spatz, I can't answer your questions without big honking spoilers.




I know.  But unfortunately, without those sorts of spoilers, it's hard to give coherent suggestions, especially since something like a year has passed since regular game sessions went into the story hour, and the mythology is one area where the players have a HUGE advantage over us storyhour readers.  For instance, without knowing exactly how much power Malachite and Mara now have in the Aeosian church, it's hard to know whether they'd be selected to speak for the entire church at an event like this, or whether Aeos' representatives would even be invited.



> The short answer (since I'm headed to bed) is that Trea plays a huge role in the current story arc, and I've still done virtually nothing with Aedrae; she's a blank canvass to draw on.




Okay, that does give something to work with, depending on exactly how many of our earlier suggestions you decided to use (especially the stuff about Abbath's fate).  But I think we still need more info on the pantheon; maybe you've fleshed this all out in your own notes and just never fit it into the narrative, or maybe this is the point in the campaign where this stuff finally matters enough to resolve.  Breaking it down into a few questions:

1> Like I mentioned before, is the relative power of gods based solely on the number of followers (which'd put Aeos pretty high, I'd think) or is it more heirarchical (with Teliez remaining at the bottom tier due to lack of seniority and demigod status)?  I.e., would Aedrae's church be inherently powerful just because of who she is?  Or are there only a small number of large "churches" (like Aeos has), with most of the other gods just acting as patrons for specific groups (like Galanna seems to be)?

2> Where do the classical non-human deities (like Moradin, Corellon, and Mog) fit into all of this?  You've established that some non-humans worship the main Spiran pantheon (like certain elves worshipping Galanna, or gnomes for Orthyss), but you've also mentioned the traditional race-related deities.
If Abbath, Aedrae, and Trea showed up right after the worms killed off everyone and were responsible for their binding, when did the others show up?  Presumably they'd be just as motivated to stop their followers from being destroyed in a world-ending cataclysm, so that gives you a LOT of gods to get involved.

3> Which of the gods have your current players personally fleshed out over the years?  Which were done by ex-players (in which case they'd be the obvious people to ask for NPC suggestions)?  Which haven't really been touched at all?

4> You've more or less established that the pantheon is global, with ones like Calphas worshipped in different aspects in different areas.  But is it possible that some god that's practically ignored in the players' homelands could be one of the most powerful on some other continent?  This'd help get around any issues from #1, as well as adding potential for new cultures.  For instance, say that since Aedrae is one of the most powerful goddesses, she should be represented; but, in Gaunt and the surrounding regions she's only worshipped by a few oracles (she IS the goddess of Fate), while in some faraway land the Aedraean Church controls a theocracy (bringing an entirely new meaning to "waychooser"), and so they'd be the obvious representatives.

Basically, I think the problem is that there are just too many gods for them all to be involved; narrowing the discussion down to the half-dozen most powerful might be a start.  Ironically, this'd probably rule out Calphas, almost definitely rule out Galanna, which gives a nice starting point to the "why should we listen to this guy?" arguments.  Also, if the Illithid gods have a lot of power, wouldn't they feel they should be represented at these sorts of world-changing events?  Or would they just sit back and hope their opponent gods are weakened by the effort of trapping/killing the worms again?


----------



## Piratecat

Sandain, I'm ahead of you!  I already know who killed Primus and took his place, and why.  It ties in with the ongoing plot fairly nicely, explains why the modrons were marching, and explains why all the modrons suddenly dropped dead. (Ha! Take THAT, plot avoiding PCs!) I think I'm going to reveal this information in aan upcoming game. I'm actually at the stage where if I'm going to bring the campaign to a close, I nned to resolve some plot lines. It kills me to do so, but it'll be fun.

Spatz, you have some great points. I'm not above revealing spoilers, far from it; I just couldn't type it all last night.  

I have some stuff I still need to do today and it'll take me an hour to type, so I'll post again later.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Regarding the sword, I'm pondering the role of myth in kingbuilding. I'm also overthinking this WAY too much.




The thing that piques my interest about the sword is:  Why _this_ sword?  Surely others were carrying weapons.  Possibly even magical/psionic ones.  So what made this ordinary, unremarkable sword become a focal point?


----------



## Piratecat

A great question, and one that remains unanswered. I'd like to think that it's because Gith and Zerthimon (or however the mythology) almost came to blows, and this neutral gith soldier had to choose a side -- and he chose the Githyanki. If he had chosen the Githzerai, all the focal power of that one moment of choice might have resulted in a very different weapon.

I wonder if there's a fun way to make that decision have to happen again, this time with a different result.


----------



## Spatzimaus

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> So what made this ordinary, unremarkable sword become a focal point?




Maybe it's their Excalibur.  As a weapon it has equals, but this was the personal sword of their greatest general, the symbol of his house, and a work of art in its own right.  This isn't just limited to weapons; what if, during the Cold War, the Soviets had sent a team to steal the original copies of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence?  Sure, they're paper, but it's not only an unacceptable loss of a historical item, it's a loss to _your worst enemies_.

I like the idea of Gith coming back and solving this, although that'd have a LOT of consequences.  If it resulted in the two gith races reuniting under one banner, how long would it be before the illithids were wiped out?  And what would that do to our favorite brain paladin?  (Heh, the DoD being called in to save the brain and its illithid paladin order from destruction by the reunited gith?)


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot

Religious convention?  That means Soder gets to be there, right?   I wouldn't mind coming up with a religious figure or two, do you happen to have a list of your campaign's deities? (I recall some kind of graph with them that was posted a while ago)


----------



## Spatzimaus

Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> do you happen to have a list of your campaign's deities? (I recall some kind of graph with them that was posted a while ago)




It's located here.

IIRC, many of these gods were fleshed out by characters who chose that deity.  Galanna, Calphas, Aeos, Vindus and Morphat have all been represented in the party, with Toraz, Teliez, Orthyss, and Yorrine showing up as enemies.  So, I'd guess we don't have much room to play with those.


----------



## Sandain

I think a Demi-lich should show up.  'For the souls of 5 epic heroes, to fuel my divine transcendence I can guarantee you will have the power to defeat the worms' 

I love Acerak.


----------



## Piratecat

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> IIRC, many of these gods were fleshed out by characters who chose that deity.  Galanna, Calphas, Aeos, Vindus and Morphat have all been represented in the party, with Toraz, Teliez, Orthyss, and Yorrine showing up as enemies.  So, I'd guess we don't have much room to play with those.



Welcome to my great weakness as a DM; I suck at world-building things that I don't imminently need. Some DMs detail every God and continent before they begin play. I'm not one of those people. Hell, I don't even know the _name_ of the other continents.

That's why I didn't have a world-creation myth for the first six years of the campaign. I just didn't feel comfortable enough to do it justice. You'll also notice that my deities are complicated by the existence of the traditional D&D humanoid deities like Yondalla, Moradin, and so forth. That's just a carry-over from AD&D, but it's well established at this point even if it messes up my pantheon. We sort of think of them as the "non-local" Gods.



			
				Sandain said:
			
		

> I think a Demi-lich should show up.  'For the souls of 5 epic heroes, to fuel my divine transcendence I can guarantee you will have the power to defeat the worms'
> 
> I love Acerak.



Me too, but I envision these eating Acererak for dinner. Heck, Soder is a demi-lich who is also now a divine servant (sort of an undead arch-angel, in an odd sense, with the same power that Acererak was aiming for in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.) He's planning on staying far away from the worms. That's partially due to the fact that (to prevent divine intercession) I've made the worms resistant to divine power. Holy divinations can't detect them, for instance.

I'll give you a quick look at the potential end of the campaign.
[sblock]The worms aren't the real threat. The real threat is that the worms are _breeding_ in a place where no one can easily get to them, and the resulting larvae are going to literally kill the world. If that happens, the heroes are going to have to come up with some interesting plans to bring it back to life. I know how they might do this, but I'm not ready to talk about it yet.

The larvae are going to devour and kill the parent worms. And Velendo is going to learn this about two minutes before he has to go "on-stage" at the big planning meeting.

(Remind me at some point to talk about how I'm trying to put the threat on a more human level, using cultists who aren't around for what you might think.)

The group has just learned that Trea wasn't originally the Goddess of Treachery and Seduction. She was originally the Goddess of Cleverness and Trickery. It was She who actually fooled all but two of the worms into abandoning the mortal plane (and crawling into a giant trap), and doing so corrupted Her irrevocably and drove her insane. That's why She ended up seducing Her father. This would be a... controversial... claim to make in established religion.  [/sblock]

Let's talk about the potential convention for a sec. 

The goal is to get all the movers and shakers he can find: powerful wizards and priests, warlords, scholars, and the like. The more they invite, the fewer folks will be offended for not being invited, but the more unwieldy it will become. I think i'll have a representative from most of the major churches within the main group.

The real problem here is that 99% of famous scholars and sages, experts on religion, have no idea that the worms exist (or don't believe what they really are if they have heard of them.) This is really obscure lore. It's also completely heretical in most religions.

I'll have to represent this discussion in a fun way, without _really_ having a giant meeting.


----------



## Sandain

To me it would be fun to have the worlds best assasin be represented because of the huge resources and lore the guild has collected over the centuries.  He could be an Assasin/perfect wraith type who will attend but not be seen and request that Mara speaks on his behalf 

In any conference or meeting there will always be different factions.  By various bargaining and power plays the group may end up as the spokepeople for different factions.  They may have to play devils advocate against there own beliefs.


----------



## Piratecat

Interestingly enough, one of the world's best assassins did show up three games ago. He's been hired by the church of Toraz, God of Assassins, to _stop_ people from assassinating the Defenders. Although the Defenders hate them, the Torazians are one of the few churches who have an inkling of what the stakes are, and they want to make sure that the Defenders stay perfectly healthy until they can do something about it.

He's getting paid quite a bit, and he's ethical enough that he doesn't like to kill the folks he considers "good guys." It's a good deal for him.


----------



## Spatzimaus

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Welcome to my great weakness as a DM; I suck at world-building things that I don't imminently need.




I wouldn't call it a "weakness" at all, even if it is going to give you a headache or three in the near future.  I've played with DMs who tried to create the entire world mythology and geography before the campaign starts, and inevitably they railroad the players just so that they can show off the content they spent all that time on.  Also, this sort of vagueness fits a narrative style well, since the details off all those other places and gods would be a bit fuzzy to the protagonists due to lack of exposure.



> Hell, I don't even know the _name_ of the other continents.




And that's where WE come in!  It's ironic; the fact that your campaign is coming to a close is the perfect opportunity to start creating all sorts of extra material, simply because you don't have to worry about the players ever going to those places or interacting with those gods.  You can throw in TONS of material "inspired" by other people's campaigns, and it'd only really matter if someone decided to start a new campaign in your world.

(Hint: publish a Spira Sourcebook!)



> You'll also notice that my deities are complicated by the existence of the traditional D&D humanoid deities like Yondalla, Moradin, and so forth. That's just a carry-over from AD&D, but it's well established at this point even if it messes up my pantheon. We sort of think of them as the "non-local" Gods.




I was thinking about that, after the previous post, and came to the same conclusion.  The logic's simple:
> There are a multitude of Primes.
> Abbath, Aedrae, and Trea came to this one and made it their home.  They and their children draw their power from their followers here.  While these gods themselves live on aligned planes, many of them are tied to a single Prime where they're much, much stronger.
> But then there are also a few "universal" ones, like Moradin, that don't limit themselves to one Prime.  Moradin has followers pretty much anywhere there are Dwarves, which gives him a LOT of power; the flip side is that he can't directly affect things on this Prime nearly as much as someone like Aeos can, and that sort of direct action tends to make converts quickly, which could explain why gods like Aeos have so much local power.

The other option is to treat those non-human deities as simply aspects of the established pantheon; equate Aeos to Moradin, Yondalla to Galanna, etc., but this would cause a LOT of problems.



> The goal is to get all the movers and shakers he can find: powerful wizards and priests, warlords, scholars, and the like. The more they invite, the fewer folks will be offended for not being invited, but the more unwieldy it will become.
> 
> The real problem here is that 99% of famous scholars and sages, experts on religion, have no idea that the worms exist




Well, the typical Real World solution for that isn't to invite everyone with power, it's to invite a single powerful representative from each category, someone that the rest of his contemporaries accepts as trustworthy.  Convince the Aedraean Pope that the worms are real, and let HIM convince the other religions; his chances of being believed are far better than those of an abrasive ex-village priest.  Likewise, Ioun has a better chance of convincing mage guilds than a half-insane halfling, and the king of Gaunt could handle politicos better than anyone other than Nolin...

This has the advantage of keeping the discussion small without offending anyone for being left out, although it does tend to make everything take twice as long.  The big headache becomes if there are people who'd still be convinced the representative is lying to further his own agenda, but those people would cause you problems either way.  One solution there is to invite two or three within each category, making sure they're from conflicting groups.  For the religious types, for instance, you'd invite some evil deity's representative (Soder!), under the assumption that any religious types will listen to at least ONE of the people invited, and if both sides can be convinced then it must be true.  Likewise, if you invite the king of Gaunt, make sure to invite his traditional rival at the same time.


----------



## Piratecat

That's a great idea, and an obvious compromise between effectiveness and roleplaying. More after I think on this a while.


----------



## Knightfall

*Piratecat's Eversink Region*

Okay, here's a CC2 map I did for Piratecat, at one point, based on a few JPGs he sent me. I'd planned on doing more, but got away from it, as I have my own homebrewed world to map out. However, now that he's -reposting his story hour again, I might re-visit the maps.







Cheers!

Knightfall1972


----------



## Knightfall

*And here's another...*

This map is based on a map sent to me by Dylrath's player, Sialia.






This was originally posted as an attachment on this thread. - KF72


----------



## Piratecat

Robert, one more reason why you absolutely rock. I still feel bad that life got complicated and I didn't dig up all the info you had asked for. Thank you again for making these! I'm honored that you did so.


----------



## Knightfall

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Robert, one more reason why you absolutely rock. I still feel bad that life got complicated and I didn't dig up all the info you had asked for. Thank you again for making these! I'm honored that you did so.




No worries. Besides, CC2 Pro is fun!


----------



## Kaodi

*Hmmm...*

What if some of the best sources of information on the worms comes from Horr, or one of his empathic followers? After all, he is the demi-god of pain and suffering, and may have some sort of insight into the people of the old Spira who were slain by the worms. Where as in most religions, like you said, the very notion of this sort of stuff would be heretical, the most sensitive of Horr's followers would know it to be true. They can *feel* it. And while the notion of the worms bringing *more* pain and suffering may be appealing to them, complete destruction, the end of pain and suffering, is still antithetical (sp?) to them.

And a thought on the sword... Perhaps, once upon a time, before the Lich Queen became the Lich Queen, she had a son. This son grew up to become a great soldier, and fought ferociously against all of his mothers enemies. When the Lich Queen ascended to leadership of the Githyanki, a priest or prophet foretold that as long as the son remained loyal to his mother, she would rule forever. A rival of the Lich Queen thought she could get around this by just slaying the son outright, but from the thoughts of the dying son, a powerful blade coalesced and came into being. With the blade, one on the Queens bodyguards slew the rival, and it became tradition that the son lived on in the blade. To make a long story short, for Galthia to possess the sword means that the son has lost faith in the Lich Queen, else he would never allowed himself to be wielded by a mortal foe of the githyanki. So, according to the prophecy, the rest of the Githyanki believe that the Lich Queen is now vulnerable to being defeated and overthrown...


----------



## Spatzimaus

Kaodi said:
			
		

> After all, he is the demi-god of pain and suffering, and may have some sort of insight into the people of the old Spira who were slain by the worms.




Well, those people were killed before his grandfather, Boros, was even born.  So I'm not sure how much connection his worshippers could have to that.  If any god had the ability to tell about what happened before the first gods arrived, it'd be Quenntil: God of Time, Travel, and Change.  (That first comma is important; being God of Time Travel is just plain shark-jumping.)

It's somewhat unfortunate that none of your gods is a "God of the Earth" type, because that one would be a natural to know when the baby worms started up; as it is now, there's no obvious god to give warnings before they reach the Underdark and start eating living beings.  Do any of the gods even have the Earth domain?
Actually, the very fact that none of them have that portfolio fits in well with your "Spira is alive" concept.  It also allows the arcane types to take center stage a bit more, since arcane divinations shouldn't be affected (as much) by whatever it is that keeps the gods from seeing what the worms are doing.


----------



## Piratecat

Yup, that's actually on purpose (or so I can claim as I speedily backfill.) There's no god of the earth because that role is effectively taken up by Spira herself. She doesn't give oracular visions or really communicate, though; she's more of a demi-urge than the personification that the other deities generally are. 

This is actually good plot-wise. I'd just as soon surprise the PCs with what's actually happening. They'll have some clues via Agar's visions, but they may not put them together.

Kaodi, ther concept of using Horr is an interesting one. I've never used him to his true potential. I'm suddenly taken with the idea of making a Horrish (I know, I know) sect that is similar to Ilmater in the FR: massochists who believe in purity through self-flagellation. Less stereotypical than the ones who hurt others.


----------



## Kaodi

*More On Horr*

It also bears mentioning that if the clergy of Horr believes in torturing themselves, after said torture they should always be careful to heal themselves up, because the best way to experience pain is probably through undamaged nerve endings.


----------



## Spatzimaus

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I'm suddenly taken with the idea of making a Horrish (I know, I know) sect that is similar to Ilmater in the FR: massochists who believe in purity through self-flagellation. Less stereotypical than the ones who hurt others.




Well, there are real-world precedents for the whole "purity through austerities" concept, within Christianity.  So you wouldn't have to go far to find details on this sort of thing.

Personally, I think this whole situation is a chance for you to try out all sorts of things you haven't had a chance to include previously due to lack of detail; after all, it's not like your players are going to be spending a lot of time with these groups.  (First, because the campaign's almost done, and second, because they're now too high in level to deal with minor mundane stuff.)  Second, like you said before, you've never fleshed out the other continents, but now is the appropriate time for them to be meeting the most powerful people from these other places, so you've got carte blanche to add new stuff without having to completely balance it all out.

For instance, when I think about this topic, I keep coming back to an idea I mentioned in passing earlier... if Aedrae is the goddess of Fate and the "waychooser" (usually meaning an oracle of some kind), imagine a distant LN theocracy where divinations are used to determine every 5-year-old child's eventual career (again, "waychooser" takes on a more sinister meaning) and this determines what training/education/social resources the person gets.  More importantly, this lets the priests maintain absolute Big Brother-style control by quietly weeding out anyone who the divinations say will be a rebel, criminal, or any other "undesirable" career; minor deviations can be adjusted along the way, but the people who'll end up with really chaotic philosophies (adventurers!) get removed (killed if you want them evil, shipped off to other lands if not).

Also, a quick question: How widespread are non-Human civilizations?  In the story hour, while the non-Humans were common, most of the places seemed to be very Human-centric and I'm not sure if there was ever anywhere where they had distinct societies outside of the Underdark.  Maybe it was just a question of how things were phrased, but when reading I basically assumed that anyone they met was Human unless specified otherwise...

So, this'd give you a starting point for other civilizations in the world; what would an Elf-based or Dwarf-based multiracial society look like?  I don't mean a pure Elf society, that's easy.  In one of my previous campaigns I had a city that was Elf-founded, and they still made up a plurality of the population (maybe 40%, with 30% human and 30% other); it was a challenge to come up with something that still had a vaguely elvish feeling but that wasn't purely dominated by them (for the record, I don't think I pulled it off completely).  For a dwarf-based one, ever read David Weber's "Oath of Swords" series?  They had a good dwarf-and-human empire, very commerce-oriented with an unmatched professional infantry army.  I used it as the model for the main civilization in my last campaign, except I integrated psionics into it.


----------



## Piratecat

This is a great idea. The rough history is that humans came to this continent (Abbathia) fleeing a giant political wizard-war on the old continent (Shelantry - hey, I DO remember a continent name!). I think the elves probably ended up the ruling race when all was said and done. I originally pictured Shelantry as really political and structured, sort of like the castes of India with more intrigue than normal. I never used it that way because I added political intrigue in locally instead.

An elven nation of law, where the society you've described thrives, really has its appeal. 


> ]"I am Cleddin Al-Torine Pel-Sinter Pel-Pyrole. I am of the Enlightened Seeker caste, and belong to the 113th faction of such."
> 
> .. blank looks...
> 
> "In other words, I am destined to be a hero. All who would stand in the way of that have been removed from my path. Unless you are of a higher rank, it is your duty and joy to please step aside."


----------



## Graywolf-ELM

That sounds cool, and a pointer to one of the benefits to not running a canon gameworld setting.  Creativity outside of what has gone before in the game world.

GW


----------



## Spatzimaus

Piratecat said:
			
		

> This is a great idea. The rough history is that humans came to this continent (Abbathia) fleeing a giant political wizard-war on the old continent (Shelantry - hey, I DO remember a continent name!).




Hmm, sounds like you've read those books too, then.  Not QUITE the same plot (their war was necromancers versus the good guys, and the elves were among the races who ran to the uninhabited continent), but pretty close.  And in your case, I really like the idea that the Elves mainly remained behind as the "winners" of the war; it definitely gives a good reason why there isn't much commerce between continents, too much bad blood, and it doesn't automatically imply they were evil or anything.

How long ago was this war supposed to have taken place?  Clearly, SOME races must have existed on Abbathia before the humans arrived (like all those races in the Underdark...), so were the Humans the only refugees from that war?  For instance, while the Elves might have been centered on Shelantry, maybe the Dwarves were native to Abbathia (especially considering how they're tied to the Underdark, i.e. Mrid and such).  Hmm... outside of those Orthyss-worshipping Gnomes in the recent story hour posts, have there been many Gnomes in your campaign?

This'd especially work if you say that Shelantry had two large countries; say, for instance, you had the Elf-dominated theocracy, and one (or more) Human-dominated feudal societies.  Seeing that the Humans are slowly dominating everything through sheer population, the theocracy starts a war/inquisition/purification... and wins, uniting the entire continent into one giant, intolerant power.  So, all in one shot you've got a ton of exiles: most inhabitants of the losing country, chaotic Elves who don't fit into the ultralawful mold (say, if the theocracy is run by gray elves and the exiles are descended from wood elves?) and any random others who won't submit to the church.  It's a massive exodus, sure, but not only would the losing country bring along plenty of resources/tools/etc., but the winning side might have even been willing to help the undesirables leave.

QUESTION: Have the players ever heard about Shelantry, or this exodus?  Is there room to stick a few extra flavor things into the world, like how a ship arrives every year or so, carrying more "undesirable" children?  The irony of this is that the divinations aren't necessarily wrong; a civilization where everyone is in exactly the best job for them might be an extremely efficient one, and so even with a lower population they couldn't be invaded today.


----------



## Graywolf-ELM

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> ...
> QUESTION: Have the players ever heard about Shelantry, or this exodus?  Is there room to stick a few extra flavor things into the world, like how a ship arrives every year or so, carrying more "undesirable" children?  The irony of this is that the divinations aren't necessarily wrong; a civilization where everyone is in exactly the best job for them might be an extremely efficient one, and so even with a lower population they couldn't be invaded today.




I like this part about the refugees.  So not only are they exiled, but they come to engender what was seen for them.  The ones seen to be adventurers become adventurers on this continent, killers become killers, shopkeepers become shopkeepers, depending upon their fortunes when they arrive in the new world, and if they are adopted or not, how they are raised etc.

GW


----------



## Kaodi

*Huh?*

This thread is getting dangerously close to being pushed off the front page! We can't have that, can we?!

Any more tidbits you could give us PC, so we can get a burst of energy going here?


----------



## justinsluder

Piratecat, need anything from us?


----------



## Piratecat

A fine question, and yes. For anyone who feels like kibitzing, here's what I'm wrestling with right now:

1. The PCs are currently back in time, in the location where Gith and Zerthimon had the argument that resulted in the massive schism from whence githyanki and githzerai arose. What were they arguing about, and how can I make the PCs somehow responsible for the actual split?

2. This argument took place on a former illithid world. What might it look like in the present, thousands of years later?

3. Describe the lair of an illithid who breeds and raises baby Horrible Evil Worms (tm).

I'll welcome any ideas!


----------



## KnidVermicious

Piratecat said:
			
		

> A fine question, and yes. For anyone who feels like kibitzing, here's what I'm wrestling with right now:
> 
> 1. The PCs are currently back in time, in the location where Gith and Zerthimon had the argument that resulted in the massive schism from whence githyanki and githzerai arose. What were they arguing about, and how can I make the PCs somehow responsible for the actual split?
> I'll welcome any ideas!




Topknot/Dreadlock length (a la Swift's "which end of the egg" schism).


----------



## Knightfall

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I'll welcome any ideas!



Okay, here's a bad guy that my PCs are about to face tonight...

Moved here...
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3318324#post3318324


----------



## The_Warlock

Hey Piratecat, with the fact that I have a Githyanki in my home campaign that has begun discovering faith and some of the Githzerai teachings, planewalker.com has several excellent resources. The best being The Unbroken Circle of Zertimon, the religious text held by the NPC Dak'kon in the computer game Plansescape: Torment.

Here's the link:
http://www.planewalker.com/rrakkma/entry.php?intEntryID=10831

The basic bit of the argument, as also detailed in the Unbroken Circle, is how to live AFTER the war on the Illithids. Gith's point of view: We must never allow ourselves to be slaves again, we must hunt the illithid to utter extinction, and once that is done, set ourselves up as the overmasters of all species - if the Gith people are the Masters, then they can never be the slaves. Zerthimon countered that the illithid were broken as an empire, and the people were free, and that's all that was needed, and it was time to live life again, rather than merely live war. 

What with you having very heroic characters in your run, it should be able to easily play up the megalomaniacal aspects of Gith should they meet and the solid as a rock nature of Zerthimon, perhaps convince him that war isn't the way. And then be there when the last illithid in the fortress they were seiging dies, and the Pronouncement of Two Skies happens...and Gith wacks Zerthimon for his "treason" and the civil war erupts around them.

In my home campaign, I've set it up so that at that point, though none of the gith peoples know it, the faith of the Zerths in Zerthimon elevates him to godhood when Gith kills him, but without true followers, only those espousing his philosophy without venerating him, he hangs out in a half-way stage waiting for his people to call on him. Which is where my run has the githyanki character in question who has given up his evil ways over time, and has begun to step down the exalted path buoyed by an previously unknown god of mentalism...


----------



## justinsluder

I could have missed things, but isn't Galthia still with the party?  Why not just create a total time paradox?  Maybe the world they are from originally was there because of Gith and Zerthimon not working together.  Galthia could be responsibe for a whole new, alternate reality.  Just an idea.

If Galthia is still around, him simply being there could be the final straw.  

Btw, how did they end up back in time.  How far back in time are they?

Former illithid world?  Hmm......
I'll have to think on that one a bit.

Illithid Lair designed for breeding your gorgeous big worms = Genetic engineering facility.  Sorry, first thing that popped into my mind.

Let me know if you want more info on any of these.

-Justin


----------



## Piratecat

Incredibly useful - thank you! One Warlock, GREAT link. You guys rock.


----------



## The_Warlock

No problem! Glad to help.


----------



## Spatzimaus

Amazing, activity on this thread after all this time...



> 1. how can I make the PCs somehow responsible for the actual split?




Using the "official" story as detailed by The_One_Warlock, I think the answer is obvious: *Zerthimon was originally going to AGREE with Gith.*  The players are responsible for convincing him that his values are worth standing up for, and making the Pronouncement of Two Skies.

What they need to conveniently fail to mention is that following his morals will result in an incredibly destructive civil war that will keep his race from ever really being anything other than a footnote in the Planar Handbook, and will probably be responsible for more deaths than anything short of the Blood War.  If he let Gith run with her idea, though, there'd eventually be a Gith Empire; sure, someday there'd probably be another slave rebellion, but overall the race would advance more.

Depending on how much divination magic you let Gith have access to, this could be a REALLY hard sell.



> 2. This argument took place on a former illithid world. What might it look like in the present, thousands of years later?




The argument was on "the Blasted Plains".  If I were a gith (either type), that place would be sacrosanct, off-limits to everyone else.  It WAS the site of the final major battle against the Illithid, after all.
In a unified, warlike Gith Empire (where Zerthimon hadn't opposed Gith), it'd probably be maintained in its original state.  But in the zerai/yanki split, neither side would bother with that (or tolerate if the other side did), and it'd probably be completely overgrown, with nothing remaining of the original structures.



> 3. Describe the lair of an illithid who breeds and raises baby Horrible Evil Worms (tm).




Are these the same Horrible Evil Worms who we previously discussed the Spira-hollowing properties of?

My first instinct was to say it'd be filled with stuffed animals, bright colors, and a TV showing episodes of Barney or the Teletubbies (possibly Veggie Tales, if you want to get REALLY scary).  But of course, the worms can't see.

I guess it'd depend on exactly WHY he was raising them.  Is it for a specific goal, is it because he just thinks they're cute, or is he basically an employee of the adult worms (if any)?


----------



## thatdarncat

> 3. Describe the lair of an illithid who breeds and raises baby Horrible Evil Worms (tm).



Is this related to what we were investigating in the Gencon game?


----------



## The_Warlock

Piratecat said:
			
		

> 2. This argument took place on a former illithid world. What might it look like in the present, thousands of years later?




Ok, I don't have the OLD issue number of the Dragon magazine that first made my evil DM's heart fall in love with the evil that was illithids, but the article was something along the lines of The Sunless World.

If this was a "Capital" of the ancient illithid empire, you want something that would allow both the illithid and their slaves to function passibly well in terms of terrain, climate, and light, while not causing discomfort to the illithid masters.

Thus, a world with a massive but dim red sun. Everything is constantly tinted red. Bright enough for most humanoids to function in, but much gentler to illithid eyes. A generally damp world, many marshes, perhaps lowland seas, and disturbingly sharp mountains, some blasted from the war, others generally intact, and carved with disturbinging serpentine and tooth-like projections.

What plants survive would likely appear black, or perhaps have a violet hue, needing different chemicals to absorb the red light.

There would be very little difference between night and noon in the habitable space of the world - similar to a confused arctic spring - it's almost always "daylight" except for perhaps 2 to 4 hours or darkness, but the sun never rises more than dusk levels of illumination above the horizon. 

There would likely be horribly shattered plains of shattered scree and rubble where the mind magics of the two sides blasted away the vegetation and opposing troops, probably leaving crater like walls in the major areas of battle that have kept much of the swamps beyond away...except for a muddly red-brown sludge in the dim light suggestive of pulped bodies, though really just wet dirt.

Likely there would be nasty diseases and parasites in the water, and possibly in the air, left over from the rot of millions of pounds of illithid flesh craft war machines. That and scattered in places, occasional inhuman bones and skulls, and odd metal bits of illithid ancient weapons.

And at the base of a massive set of sharp-peaked concentric mountains obviously pried forth from the earth, a flattened, slag-like plain of fused and once melted plain a mile across, the from of the outer most mountains shattered and collapsed in a round pile of rubble. The remnants of a "guard tower" spike obviously lifted up after the battle as a podium of sorts. With it's tip cracked and an unremovable black stain - where the Pronouncement of Two Skies was made.

That's probably the basics of how I'd describe it.


----------



## Robbs

I don't know if you are familiar with the 'War with the Chtorr' series by David Gerrold, but in a nutshell the Earth is being invaded/chtorraformed by an alien race.  Most of these species are more agressive, faster growing, etc. compared to Earthly variants.  If you just look at the alien plant and animal ecosystem that is being overlayed on Earth, those elements would give you a pretty good starting point for a home world.  I seem to recall the reddish sun issue was a factor in this one also.  And as an added bonus, the main creatures encountered were giant worms!  It actually gets into their lairs, breeding and such in a couple of the books (although if I remember correctly they are not quite worms but an amalgam).

Hope it helps and good to see some new posts!


----------



## Shieldhaven

I'm laughing my ass off about githyanki and githzerai coming from a "sunless" world.  See, the names (and faint echoes of the concepts) were originally stolen from George R.R. Martin's _Dying of the Light_, which takes place on just such a world, in which the sun is nearly dead...

Haven


----------



## justinsluder

Oh Great One!

Do you have any requests related to your game?







And, just so no one is mistaken, I'm asking Piratecat.


----------



## Tangent Loki

3. Describe the lair of an illithid who breeds and raises baby Horrible Evil Worms (tm).



  A hole is before you, it is round and smooth bored.  the walls slope down at an easy angle, the walls luminesce a faint soft amber.  It is warm and comfortable.  You 'move at whatever rate you move at' down the tube for what seems like hours.  It empties into a tight chamber, it feels enclosed and defended.  the ceiling looms a mere twenty feet about your head.  The floor is soft and clay like.  

in the center of the room there is a shape.  Clothed in tan robes, that give the impression of a nurse-main, a body of flesh.  At the top of the body is a head with writhing tnetacles.  They seem doughy in the amber light.  

It is crouched over several large shapes.  a few rustle softly.  

A voice, soothing and serene resounds through your minds.  

'Have you come to see my babies?'  It coos.

Have you come to feed my babies.  It demand.

make a will save.


----------



## Tangent Loki

Piratecat.  Longtime fan and follower of the defenders of daybreak, although I haven’t read since the demise of the Ghoul king.. So this may or may not work. 

First I would play up a ‘womb/stomach’ element in the design.  A soft and comforting type of place.  Not so alien.  But the horror (if necessary’  comes when you realize that these tubes were carved out by bear hands, the flesh being clawed off by the mentally dominated, thousands of hands, and tiny finger marks, just to make a comfortable place for this master illithid.  They are the equivalent of tactical world busters, and so are cared for with the utmost respect, be herr head-brain himself. )

To make a womb for its ‘children’

What it is doing is feeding the worms dreams.  It is keeping them in a quasi coma sleep while they grow, teaching and nurturing.

Want to go for extra ‘oh snap RBDM value?’  Good.

They kill or incapacitate the ‘mother figure’  you has long been raising these worms as DEATH INCARNATE.

World devouring crap.  Upon losing their tranquil dreams they go haywire.  Burning halo and all, they devour the illithid home world.

This leads to the Gith/zerth debate.  (if they need to debate first maybe they are discussing possible futures in which they will defeat the illithids, because the portents seem certain that this world is doomed, and if not by the massed slave rebellion/revolt.  Then by what?  To which the defenders bug out to stop the worms. Or start them…)

What to do now that the illithids are scattered across the galaxy (like titan AE) they have lost their home world to these things and have to flee via spell jammers, a liftoff of millions.  

So survive they need to adapt to these new worlds.  The outlying colonies are all that is left and they become a waning species (hence so much need for slavery).

One wants to hunt them down.  The other sees them as broken.  Meanwhile the worms keep tunneling until they find a gate to the prime.  Maybe it was there all along.  They are going to start happily munching.  How were they sealed in antiquity?    

Here’s where I think I caught you… these are the same worms right?

The ones that the doom cult was going to loose the seal on?

The defenders trap them.

How?  With a piece of their ‘mother’s’ soul.  Something to let them dream and be content.  ( but how to drop this hint should it proved to be easily missed?  I as of right now have no clue.  But it does make a nice Cthulhu tie in.  In sunken R’ley the dead worm-lings lie dreaming.  Which due to their dream presence is eventually perceived as a face, with wings that represent motion, and a single head as their single goal.  A facsimilie of their once great master, their creator and their home. ) 



While their power wastes away (‘cuz they are like vr junkies).
How was the doom cult going to free them?  Maybe part of the (unknown fx) was getting rid of the illithid’s soul.  

I don’t know.  

Thoughts?

Plus this lets you play up the other kind of homey-creepy.  As opposed to the blood-guts and horror, or the far realms… squeak! Topple-fobbit.   Erch. Rachet-rachety-clank. Hisss.  Oink.  Squeak….


----------



## Piratecat

thatdarncat said:
			
		

> Is this related to what we were investigating in the Gencon game?



Yes. Yes, it was.

I haven't read the last few posts yet, but I just wanted to throw this out there before I went to bed. Let's say that you're a powerful wizard with very powerful epic magic items, and that your name might happen to rhyme with Bemperor Mongenio Pioun. Ahem. Now, let's say that you were beaten by the giant-plot-hook-the-players-were-ignoring and defeated. Would said plot hook kill you and steal your magic items, or infect you with worms that eat your brainstem and turn you into their evil puppet?

For bonus points, how would you prepare knowing that powerful adventurers would want to do something about it?


----------



## Baron Opal

Puppets are useful, particularly this one. Take his items, of course, and have fashioned for him suitable replacements. They won't be nearly as effective but will have similar auras to disguise that they are knock-offs rather than the real deal. Then, use his influence to divert resources to your cause. 

Of course heroes are going to interfere. The puppet will have to die then. Messily. In front of witnesses. All of whom will proclaim the terrible, horrific assassination of the beloved, or at least efficient, puppet by the heroes. With the unfortunate political consequences, hopefully occupying the temple hierarchy as well as the political one as well, your plans will be unimpeded by the heroes. Preferably a new cult as well where the faith and energy of the masses can be directed to your needs.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman

Baron Opal said:
			
		

> Puppets are useful, particularly this one. Take his items, of course, and have fashioned for him suitable replacements. They won't be nearly as effective but will have similar auras to disguise that they are knock-offs rather than the real deal. Then, use his influence to divert resources to your cause.
> 
> Of course heroes are going to interfere. The puppet will have to die then. Messily. In front of witnesses. All of whom will proclaim the terrible, horrific assassination of the beloved, or at least efficient, puppet by the heroes. With the unfortunate political consequences, hopefully occupying the temple hierarchy as well as the political one as well, your plans will be unimpeded by the heroes. Preferably a new cult as well where the faith and energy of the masses can be directed to your needs.




All of this, but additionally...

The puppet version would also prepare lots and lots of defences that are time-consuming to overcome. Multiple bolt-holes, resurrections, everything he has access to to slow the PC's down in terms of dealing with other, bigger, threats.

And if they slacken of hunting him down, have him meteor swarm something important.


----------



## WizarDru

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I haven't read the last few posts yet, but I just wanted to throw this out there before I went to bed. Let's say that you're a powerful wizard with very powerful epic magic items, and that your name might happen to rhyme with Bemperor Mongenio Pioun. Ahem. Now, let's say that you were beaten by the giant-plot-hook-the-players-were-ignoring and defeated. Would said plot hook kill you and steal your magic items, or infect you with worms that eat your brainstem and turn you into their evil puppet?
> 
> For bonus points, how would you prepare knowing that powerful adventurers would want to do something about it?




Well now, that really depends on the nature of the Plot Hook, now doesn't it? 

Let's pretend that Io...I mean, Pioun were taken unawares.  Last time I heard (and I admit it's been a while) he wasn't the real Enchilada, but a jumped-up backup copy pretending to the throne, yes?  What if your the Evil Plot Hook (we'll call him EPH for short) was ignorant of the truth as well, right up until the moment he ate the poor...Bemperor?  What if he'd been counting on stealing that power?  Sure, he's got these nifty magical gimgaws...but he wanted the Real Deal for some reason, and now he's got a puppet that can't do what he needed.  

Worse, the EPH KNOWS that the Defenders are going to peg his puppet within moments of seeing him, no matter how sophisticated a disguise he has.  So what do you do?  When given lemons, make worm-infested highly-acidic lemonade.  The EPH has  a couple of options, here.

1) Old Reliable: Lay a trap for the heroes.  And by trap, I mean blitzkreig ambush, since any such trap would really not last for more than a round.  Knowing that the Defenders won't be fooled, set it up so that you lure them to a location where they won't actually have much time to figure it out until it actually happens.

2) Don't even pretend: Grab some old enemies with a grudge, tell them what you're up to (or kill them and violate their corpses) and 'call' the Defenders and double-dog dare them to come and stop you or merely proceed with the assumption that they'll figure it out soon and just expect to be attacked an any time.

3) Take your ball and go home: Have the Bemperor grab something of important value, perform some 'scorched earth' tactics and then leave to join up with other underlings of the EPH.  Perhaps set a magical battery under the city to build up to critical levels of power (and thus threaten to explode, requiring the heroes to 'defuse' it or evacuate the city) or have the Beph bypass security somewhere and open a gate allowing the EPHs underlings to enter and wreak havoc.

4) Spend him like wine: Instead of having to fight him, the Defenders need to save him, as the EPH uses him as a powerful pawn to do something that will almost certainly end in his self-destruction.  Perhaps even to the extent of stopping his action that will have DIRE consquences.  Alternately, the Defenders face the moral choice of saving him or stopping his action, which will do BAD THINGS, like kill or jeapordize innocents or threaten the peace or the like.  Perhaps the EPH uses Pioun to destablize an alliance or break apart the potential opponents to his plan.


----------



## The_Warlock

WizarDru said:
			
		

> 4) Spend him like wine: Instead of having to fight him, the Defenders need to save him, as the EPH uses him as a powerful pawn to do something that will almost certainly end in his self-destruction.  Perhaps even to the extent of stopping his action that will have DIRE consquences.  Alternately, the Defenders face the moral choice of saving him or stopping his action, which will do BAD THINGS, like kill or jeapordize innocents or threaten the peace or the like.  Perhaps the EPH uses Pioun to destablize an alliance or break apart the potential opponents to his plan.




If you do this...or you have the Bemperor go ballistic in the general vicinity of the heroes make sure you've done one thing first...since in both of those concepts, the Bemperor will likely die.

You infested his brain with worms...

Make sure you infest his panoply of magic items with hidden curses (and worms), working a little corrupted nondetection into them so caster level checks are necessary to ID/Analyze Dweomer the hidden villainy, while easily revealing the happy normal benefits. 

That way the EPH can always know what the heroes are doing to counter them, and when they interfere too much, use their own items as a focus for brutal displays of automatically targetted violent magical assault. 

Not that I've EVER done that to a PC in a campaign.


----------



## Kaodi

Would becoming an evil puppet because your brain was munched on by worms count for having your soul leave your body? Because if so...

Step 1: Munch the real Bemperor.
Step 2: Evil Bemperor clones a new real Bemperor.
Step 3: Soul of real Bemperor enters clone.
Step 4: Repeat steps 1-3 until the Bemperor is too low level to be of use.
Step 5: Use an epic spell to forcefully reincarnate the real Bemperor as a worm.
Step 6: Squish!
Step 7: Defenders of Daybreak, meet Army of Evil Bemperors.


----------



## Tangent Loki

Puppet most definitely puppet. 

But as far as prep goes.  Can they prove that you are not the emporer? 

Can they stop you if you are?

Could you order an injuction against them let they deal with the newly appointed sniveling magistrates.  

Would you refuse to be cared for by your previous medical advisors and instead appoint new ones, mystics and shamans from a far away land who will do as you say and not an iota more.  

Would you order town criers to spread progaganda and disinformation about your soon to be enemies.

Would you form an alliance with the now broken white kingdom?

As a future moving forward, which necessitates that the defenders apologize and stay back?

Or would you plan a trip somewhere, maybe down to the vault?  

Of course you have a contingent message to go out to the entire message.

that "the emporer is dead and has been killed by... major image effect"

now they are hunted and hated.  how while EPH clutched the emperor so tenderly and fed the worms into his ears.  he was preparing for the fall of the kingdom, after all, they can't suffer the pawn to live.  but to cause him to die will lose the respect and win the bitter enmity of a nation.

That may have its own other heroes who seek to kill the kingslayers.

(who EPH has custody of the clone of if standard procedure to clone royalty and will reworm the clones)

you could do all of these and more.  

remember that he has the power of rulership.  he has armies at his beck and call which do not of necessity know of his new allegiances.  

Look to LOTR

Theoden was not frightening in his weakness as a man, but as a king he could command the riders.  And only those close even suspected anything, but they dared not act.


----------



## Piratecat

An important point is that Ioun isn't _their_ emperor. He's the emperor of a neighboring country, and has a big-ass military. He's also a key ally. The PCs are very likely to detect that he isn't what he was.

My EPH is mostly insect, and doesn't necessarily think like a human. I think I may have Ioun act as a puppet, and maneuver his army to invade at a bad time in order to try and distract the PCs. If he can first take out a few members of the consortium trying to save the world, all the better. This gives a classic "betrayal" feel, and if my players are smart they'll do an end-run around it and not even try to solve the problem.

Or maybe they'll just kill him.


----------



## Tangent Loki

Neither was Theoden Aragorn's king.

It is a direct mind control of ioun?  or is it more of a 'ioun but bad'

Where ioun thinks like ioun but on the side of the bug?  

because if it is a direct buggy relation as opposed to the host just feeling beholden to his new queenie-thing then his tactics may be completely different.

he may not even agree to see the defenders, but send out the 'royal guard' to warn them off with their musk.  


and if that doesn't work demand that he be protected and the hive defended from these 'intruders'  that are 'not hive'.  

not only that but either drawing the BFA (big fantastic army) to guard the capital <i>against</i> the army. 

or move with them like army ants to evade the defenders.  Just one bug among thousands spreading over the land ordered to slash and burn the countryside.

But if he thinks like ioun but is dominated or more reflectively charmed then he might also give many political reasons why the defenders may not, cannot, will not meet with him, or in the case that they do he would rpvide logical reasons.

The other instance could rpovide a funny moment where he freudian slips the word 'hive' 

in to conversation.

Defenders " We dont think you should declare war with <insert country here>  They are good folk and have done nothing to harm you"

Ioun " We compete for the same resources it is enough they must join with us, or we go to seize what we must have."

Defenders " Ioun, this is madness"

Ioun "Madness?...  I must protect the (sotto voice) hive. erk people. "


 Defenders "hive?"

Ioun " Out of the throne room now!  Guards remove these eversinkinas they are enemy.  Their musk is strong.  erp"

Defenders " musk? " I cast detect (back ick thingys/ any other spell)

Ioun " its on now."

fight begins.

Ioun moves jerkily and spazmodically occasionally spilling out bug one liners.

"your pheromoes are weak velendo"

"You uselessness will be known throughout the hive"

"why build walls when you can dig UNDER them"

"Do i detect the fear-scent on you mara?"

"Many will feed on your death-songs Nolin"
etc....

is he a caster?  Or is he a fighter?


----------



## WizarDru

Tangent Loki said:
			
		

> "Many will feed on your death-songs Nolin"
> etc....
> 
> is he a caster?  Or is he a fighter?




Oh, my.  I'm guessing you haven't read later installments of the story hour, eh?   


The original Emperor Ioun was an epic-level wizard.  The current back-up is...somewhat less than that.  But he's a decent actor with some powerful magic items.  And when PC says that he's not their emperor, he's pointing out that the Defenders have a King they already serve.  Ioun (who was in magical stasis until a certain point when the Defenders broke him out, inadvertantly, iirc) holds sway over an entire empire (faded though it may be from his heyday) and are important allies of the 'good guy' alliance of nations and powers that the Defenders took great pains to forge.


----------



## Tangent Loki

Just because he isn't their king doesn't mean that royal injections in his country do no apply to them.

If he is mentally savvy he would use the laws of his land to his advantage.

Its not like they are above the law are they?

Which is another threat with killing Ioun even possessed Ioun.

Because with his blood they could dissolve that very charter.

How will they prove it if he is unwilling to co-operate, unwilling to risk his 'royal honor'.

I had made the assumption that he couldn't necissarily order around the Pc's with impunity.  

But he can effect them with the orders.  

Or order them out of the Empire.  

it is after all his is it not?


----------



## WizarDru

Tangent Loki said:
			
		

> JIts not like they are above the law are they?
> 
> Which is another threat with killing Ioun even possessed Ioun.
> 
> Because with his blood they could dissolve that very charter.
> 
> How will they prove it if he is unwilling to co-operate, unwilling to risk his 'royal honor'.




Well, yeah...they kind of are.  We're talking about a bunch of heroes who have slain several demi-gods at this point, played Kingmaker for another god and have disrupted or overthrown more than one evil government.  At least one of them is practically a saint of his religion (willing or not) and several of the defenders answer to a higher power than a mortal, earthly ruler.  While they wouldn't overthrow a lawful ruler just for kicks, if they walked in the door and some him going "chik-chik-screee" they're only one divination spell away from a smack-down.

And, uh...I have some bad news about Nolin.


----------



## Tangent Loki

They may be able to trounce the legal representatives... but think of the PR!

as well as the enmity of an entire nation.  

it would be a 'brb blood feud' moment.  Just because the emperor isn't in his right mind does not  make them the law.  Besides, how would these higher powers feel about EPH?  

It could be fulfilling a natural purpose or destiny (though I take it not).  Or they could be unaware of EPH.

plus the divination spell doesn't tell the whole room does it?  Even commune will only give one person the answers and questions.  

but who is to say that their now martyred Ioun wasn't innocent and the Defenders are just covering their tails?

If he has made any kind of political machinations previous to his 'assassination'  such as a declaration of war that lacked only a signature, or a treaty that was almost agreed to his blood could effectively force it into play (via a chancellor's nod that he was 'working on a mutual alliance with BIG NASTY X, one that would let this kingdom be at true peace, but would dissolve X that the defenders have done and so they have here slain him.  (Now you have a speech off with the chancellor who also might be brain bugged or in allied to EPH or EPH in a disguised shape)  )

Besides the gods are generally loners (if you do not count their believers)  Kings and magistrates have the body politic behind them (if not oppressive)  and death normally serves to elevate them even further beyond their station, especially violent death.  

Killing Ioun could be a grave mistake.  

Even if he is brain bugged.  

The question would not be can they kill him, but what fallout has been arranged when and if they do?

The bug can probably tell this is weak flesh.  

what is the price of one life to it that many will live?

Or maybe ioun is merely supposed to delay the defenders while EPH completes task x.  

He could even get desperate to keep them around as the tip off.  

Play checkers? Go to the Ball? Fight me?

anything.


----------



## Pelwrath

*Ideas and encounters*

Nasty monster!  here are a couple of suggestions.

A) A half-ogre mage/ half dragon but use a gem dragon.  Give the pgre-mage levels in Soulknife.

B)A half-Satyr/Half green dragon.  Satyr ha slevels as a Druid/Blighter.


----------



## Asha'man

Hope this isn't too far beyond the pale...

I was just wondering, for my own neophyte RBDM purposes, what stratagems or tactics Piratecat used to threaten 13-14th level characters with simple ghouls. Even when there are hundreds of them, on paper that just adds up to a long, annoying slog with the fighters on point. Is the mere threat of natural 1s and paralysis enough to create tension?


----------

