# D&D 5E Bard fire dancer subclass for player



## ad_hoc

A player in my game would like to play a Bard using this mini. I'm coming up with a fire dancing subclass to make it work. I've stolen ideas from others but making tweaks to try to find the right balance.

We won't be playing to 14th level so I'm not worrying about that. Also no multiclassing.

3rd Level - Produce Flame, Burning Hands, Flame Blade. Add Cha modifier to dmg for Flame Blade.
3rd Level - Spend 1 inspiration die during your turn to gain the following until the start of your next turn.

Cast bright light 20ft, dim light 20ft.
Movement speed increase 10ft
Don't provoke opportunity attacks
If hit by a melee attack from opponent within 5ft they take fire damage equal to inspiration die
Gain resistance to cold damage

6th level:

Flame Blade does not require Concentration. May make an attack with it as a bonus action (in addition to an attack as an action if so desired)
Add Cha modifier to damage of Burning Hands


The dance facilitates moving around to line up the best cone for Burning Hands and the fire shield effect dissuades attacks. Flame Blade is buffed to make it desirable to use and both are buffed at 6th level to keep them relevant.

She needs to spend inspiration dice and 1st and 2nd level spells to maintain her abilities so she burns brightly for a short time in the adventuring day. Her abilities are also limited in scope. In the right circumstance they are powerful but are not as broadly useful as something like College of Lore.

I'm hoping she will feel awesome when using the abilities but also need to save them for when they're really needed.


----------



## Clint_L

Fun!

You have a _lot_ of different things wrapped up in that quasi-fire shield effect at level 3. I'm not really understanding the movement speed increase or avoiding opportunity attacks. Feels more like a monk or rogue.

Seems odd to give resistance to cold damage instead of resistance to fire damage, which I would separate out from the inspiration effect and just make a separate sub-class feature at level 3. Or give both. Definitely seems like a sub-class that should have fire resistance all the time! Maybe that becomes immunity to fire when their shield is active?

Burning hands plus Char modifier is not that tempting an option at level 6, so why not fireball? - if they're fire-themed, they should have the most iconic fire spell. Also, that will give them a bit more oomph and flexibility, as right now they are melee-focused but not enough to really compete with proper melee types. Imagine if they could pop their fire shield, thus gaining immunity to fire for the round, and explode a fireball on top of themselves in the middle of a crowd of opponents. That would be a super cool moment for the player!

Is your intent to make a sort of quasi-monk bard, with inspiration almost becoming like ki? That's the vibe I'm getting.


----------



## W'rkncacnter

is there a reason you can't just make it so they get +charisma to all fire damage (except possibly from the fire shield)? only making it +charisma modifier for very specific fire spells for a fire-focused subclass seems kind of weird to me, and would make for a much more appealing level 6 subclass ability then only burning hands (or even only fireball).


----------



## Paul Farquhar

I would be inclined to go with a flat +CHA on all fire damage at level 6 too. And give the Green Flame Blade cantrip. I'm not a fan of the Flame Blade spell, I think it's poorly designed.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

With respect, I've done a slight rewrite.

*3rd Level

Fire Magic*: You add the _Green Flame Blade_ Cantrip and _Burning Hands_ to your list of spells known. When you cast a spell with a somatic component you may perform this through dance (does not require a fee hand). Your moment speed must be greater than zero to use this ability.


*Firedance:* You gain proficiency with Scimitars.
Spend 1 inspiration die during your turn to gain the following until the start of your next turn.

Cast bright light 10ft, dim light 10ft.
Movement speed increase 10ft
Don't provoke opportunity attacks
If hit by a melee attack from opponent within 5ft they take fire damage equal to inspiration die
You can use your CHA bonus instead of your DEX when attacking with finesse weapons
Gain resistance to cold and fire damage

*6th level:

Improved Fire Magic: *Whenever you cast a spell that does fire damage to a target you may add your Charisma bonus to one roll.


----------



## UngeheuerLich

I am very strictly against using cha instead of dex bonus to hit and damage.
Since it is a limited resource, I'd just let them add cha bonus to attack rolls and damage this turn.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

UngeheuerLich said:


> I am very strictly against using cha instead of dex bonus to hit and damage.
> Since it is a limited resource, I'd just let them add cha bonus to attack rolls and damage this turn.



That's how I wrote it. Plus it only works with finesse weapons. The intention is to let GFB substitute for the poorly designed Flame Blade spell.


----------



## UngeheuerLich

Paul Farquhar said:


> That's how I wrote it. Plus it only works with finesse weapons. The intention is to let GFB substitute for the poorly designed Flame Blade spell.




No. You wrote: "instead" . I really mean "add". Just like the devotion paladin ability. Only withbno action cost and only for 1 round per use of inspiration.


----------



## EzekielRaiden

Paul Farquhar said:


> With respect, I've done a slight rewrite.
> 
> *3rd Level
> 
> Fire Magic*: You add the _Green Flame Blade_ Cantrip and _Burning Hands_ to your list of spells known. When you cast a spell with a somatic component you may perform this through dance (does not require a fee hand). Your moment speed must be greater than zero to use this ability.
> 
> 
> *Firedance:* You gain proficiency with Scimitars.
> Spend 1 inspiration die during your turn to gain the following until the start of your next turn.
> 
> Cast bright light 10ft, dim light 10ft.
> Movement speed increase 10ft
> Don't provoke opportunity attacks
> If hit by a melee attack from opponent within 5ft they take fire damage equal to inspiration die
> You can use your CHA bonus instead of your DEX when attacking with finesse weapons
> Gain resistance to cold and fire damage
> 
> *6th level:
> 
> Improved Fire Magic: *Whenever you cast a spell that does fire damage to a target you may add your Charisma bonus to one roll.



I detect some Sarenrae here. I approve; she's one of the few unequivocally good things to come out of PF.


----------



## ad_hoc

Clint_L said:


> Fun!
> 
> You have a _lot_ of different things wrapped up in that quasi-fire shield effect at level 3. I'm not really understanding the movement speed increase or avoiding opportunity attacks. Feels more like a monk or rogue.
> 
> Seems odd to give resistance to cold damage instead of resistance to fire damage, which I would separate out from the inspiration effect and just make a separate sub-class feature at level 3. Or give both. Definitely seems like a sub-class that should have fire resistance all the time! Maybe that becomes immunity to fire when their shield is active?
> 
> Burning hands plus Char modifier is not that tempting an option at level 6, so why not fireball? - if they're fire-themed, they should have the most iconic fire spell. Also, that will give them a bit more oomph and flexibility, as right now they are melee-focused but not enough to really compete with proper melee types. Imagine if they could pop their fire shield, thus gaining immunity to fire for the round, and explode a fireball on top of themselves in the middle of a crowd of opponents. That would be a super cool moment for the player!
> 
> Is your intent to make a sort of quasi-monk bard, with inspiration almost becoming like ki? That's the vibe I'm getting.




Thanks for the replies.

The fire resistance comes from copying the spell Fire Shield. Could give fire resistance all the time but how does that compare to getting 3 skill proficiencies from college of lore along with the spells?

The Mobility comes from copying subclasses that have dancing as their central theme. It could be argued that Bladesinger is just trying to copy Monk. Subclasses are 5e's answer to multiclassing so I think that is fine too.

Fireball would be 50% of the college of lore 6th level ability. They are melee focused but then they are also a full caster. The balance comparison should be with Valor Bard not melee classes.

The intent is basically using the PHB subclasses as a balance guide and Bladesinger as a template guide.




W'rkncacnter said:


> is there a reason you can't just make it so they get +charisma to all fire damage (except possibly from the fire shield)? only making it +charisma modifier for very specific fire spells for a fire-focused subclass seems kind of weird to me, and would make for a much more appealing level 6 subclass ability then only burning hands (or even only fireball).



My concern was empowering the cantrip too much. A weakness of Bards is a lack of damaging cantrips. Produce Flame with cha damage would completely flip that.

Maybe it's just fine. Could make it all fire spells as that would exclude damage from the fire shield effect.

I'm not sure what other fire damage spells bards have other than heat metal.

A main consideration right now is whether bonus action flame blade attack is too much compared to extra attack from valor Bard. Valor means giving up spellcasting to make 2 regular attacks that don't even use charisma. This is far stronger with the investment of a level 2 spell for 10 minutes.

But seems like it is okay. Flame Blade is weak as written but it is also easy to go too far with buffing it.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

I would just mention that bard cantrips doing low damage is not an essential weakness, since its easy to work around. Feats like warlock initiate, or species choices like astral elf or genasi can give you higher damage cantrips. And at tier 1 a DEX 16 bard can plunk away perfectly well with a crossbow for considerably more damage than Vicious Mockery.

College of Spirits bards can add 1d6 to spell damage at level 6.


----------

