# Who is Torog?



## demonsquidgod (Oct 27, 2008)

Is this evil god based on something from a previous edition? Is there any more information to be found on him? All the other gods have gobs and gobs of flavour to be found in previous editions. Servants, cults, what they look like. But I have no idea bout Torog here.

What sort of thing worships him? What do his cults do? What does he look like? What are his goals? What kind of niche does he fill in the story?


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## thedungeondelver (Oct 27, 2008)

demonsquidgod said:


> Is this evil god based on something from a previous edition? Is there any more information to be found on him? All the other gods have gobs and gobs of flavour to be found in previous editions. Servants, cults, what they look like. But I have no idea bout Torog here.
> 
> What sort of thing worships him? What do his cults do? What does he look like? What are his goals? What kind of niche does he fill in the story?






tHe maSTEr WoUld NoT ApPrOVe

Oh wait, my bad.  That's _Torgo_.


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## Shroomy (Oct 27, 2008)

demonsquidgod said:


> Is this evil god based on something from a previous edition? Is there any more information to be found on him? All the other gods have gobs and gobs of flavour to be found in previous editions. Servants, cults, what they look like. But I have no idea bout Torog here.
> 
> What sort of thing worships him? What do his cults do? What does he look like? What are his goals? What kind of niche does he fill in the story?




Beyond the 4e DMG and a couple of ancillary references in the other supplements, there is not much information on the King that Crawls.


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## JeffB (Oct 27, 2008)

demonsquidgod said:


> Is this evil god based on something from a previous edition? Is there any more information to be found on him? All the other gods have gobs and gobs of flavour to be found in previous editions. Servants, cults, what they look like. But I have no idea bout Torog here.




Agreed. I'd like to know if there is anything previous- as the name is not fam to me, however...





> What sort of thing worships him? What do his cults do? What does he look like? What are his goals? What kind of niche does he fill in the story?




Maybe these are questions to ask yourself, not us?  (thats the stance I took with myself a couple of months back when I was going to post a similar thread)


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## A. Malkov (Oct 27, 2008)

From Thunderspire Labyrint, Torog is the demon lord of Baphomet and he was worshiped by minotaurs.


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## Shroomy (Oct 27, 2008)

A. Malkov said:


> From Thunderspire Labyrint, Torog is the demon lord of Baphomet and he was worshiped by minotaurs.




Nope, in that module, Torog was competing with Baphomet for the worship of a group of minotaurs. Torog is a god, not a demon lord; he's the god of the Underdark, jailers, and torturers.


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## demonsquidgod (Oct 27, 2008)

So, what is the Thematic link between jailers, torturers, and the Underdark?


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## Jack99 (Oct 27, 2008)

demonsquidgod said:


> So, what is the Thematic link between jailers, torturers, and the Underdark?




It's generally pretty dark and damp down where they are found?


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## Spatula (Oct 27, 2008)

demonsquidgod said:


> So, what is the Thematic link between jailers, torturers, and the Underdark?



Darkness, entrapment, isolation, pain.  The oubliette.  Dungeons, in the proper sense, rather than the common D&D meaning.  Being god of the underdark sounds kinda silly to me, though - "I am the patron lord of a particular set of interconnected cavern systems!" uh... ok, Torog, whatever you say...


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## knightofround (Oct 27, 2008)

I wish I could give XP just for the Torgo reference =/


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## JeffB (Oct 27, 2008)

Spatula said:


> Darkness, entrapment, isolation, pain.




Yeah this is how I look at him. 



> Being god of the underdark sounds kinda silly to me, though - "I am the patron lord of a particular set of interconnected cavern systems!" uh... ok, Torog, whatever you say...




I  took "god of the underdark" not so literally. e.g. I don't see Neptune as the god of salt water and plankton (or Spongebob or Patrick or Mr. Crabs), but rather the ruler of his environment- same thing with Torog- worshipped (feared) by those whom dwell in the deepest depths of the world, yadda yadda yadda.


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## Wycen (Oct 27, 2008)

Is there a source for all the weird mish-mash of gods they stuck in the PHB?  For example, Melora kinda sounds familiar, but I'm pretty sure she wasn't a member of the halfling pantheon.  And what about the raven queen?  Why is Ioun a god of magic, and not floating crystals?


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## Crothian (Oct 27, 2008)

All Hail King Torog!!


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## Hypersmurf (Oct 27, 2008)

Crothian said:


> All Hail King Torog!!




All Hail King Torog!

And damn it, I made that joke first!

-Hyp.


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## Crothian (Oct 27, 2008)

Only after I implanted that idea in your brain!


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## AFGNCAAP (Oct 27, 2008)

thedungeondelver said:


> tHe maSTEr WoUld NoT ApPrOVe
> 
> Oh wait, my bad.  That's _Torgo_.




Dang it—beat me to the punch.

Then again, Torgo could work as a priest of Torog...


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## inkmonkeys (Oct 27, 2008)

AFGNCAAP said:


> Dang it—beat me to the punch.
> 
> Then again, Torgo could work as a priest of Torog...




He's an exarch.


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## Nahat Anoj (Oct 28, 2008)

demonsquidgod said:


> Is this evil god based on something from a previous edition? Is there any more information to be found on him? All the other gods have gobs and gobs of flavour to be found in previous editions. Servants, cults, what they look like. But I have no idea bout Torog here.
> 
> What sort of thing worships him? What do his cults do? What does he look like? What are his goals? What kind of niche does he fill in the story?



Torog is the god of jailers, torturers, and the "underdark."  Basically, deep, dark places.  He is a god of vermin and disgusting, crawling things.  Slavers probably revere him.  In a game I'm running, he's worshipped by a tribe of rat-themed goblin slavers.  An idol of Squerrik, exarch of Torog, is the "leader" of the tribe (Squerrik is in the 2e Monster Mythology as a god of wererats).  I believe it was in W&M or in one of the preview articles where it says that Torog prefers to live deep underground in the world as opposed to an astral dominion.  

Little has been published on Torog so far.  However, a couple of phrases of Thunderspire Labyrinth (which I don't have on me, alas) describe an avatar that must look much like a shoggoth from the Chthulhu mythos.  This fact, coupled with the fact that he lives underground in close proximity to aboleths and other aberrations, suggests to me that he's got a lot of Far Realm stuff going on.


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## Voadam (Oct 28, 2008)

*I am Spartacus! Wait, what?*



demonsquidgod said:


> Is this evil god based on something from a previous edition? Is there any more information to be found on him? All the other gods have gobs and gobs of flavour to be found in previous editions. Servants, cults, what they look like. But I have no idea bout Torog here.
> 
> What sort of thing worships him? What do his cults do? What does he look like? What are his goals? What kind of niche does he fill in the story?




He sounds a little bit like Urdlen the Crawler from the old gnome pantheon, the cruel mole god of insanity and pain and underground tunnels IIRC. 

A bunch of the 4e gods are new altogether, Ioun and the Raven Queen, that serpent one who was originally going to be Set, etc.


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## Amadeus Windfall (Oct 28, 2008)

Wycen said:


> Is there a source for all the weird mish-mash of gods they stuck in the PHB?  For example, Melora kinda sounds familiar, but I'm pretty sure she wasn't a member of the halfling pantheon.  And what about the raven queen?  Why is Ioun a god of magic, and not floating crystals?




I remember reading (I think in an article on the D&D site) that at first they were making an all-new set of gods, but then they thought "Hey, this guy's basically just Moradin. Why give him a new name?" etc., so some older deities got reused.


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## Jürgen Hubert (Oct 28, 2008)

knightofround said:


> I wish I could give XP just for the Torgo reference =/




You can - that's what the set of scales to the left and bottom of the posts are for.


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## demonsquidgod (Oct 28, 2008)

Voadam said:


> A bunch of the 4e gods are new altogether, Ioun and the Raven Queen, that serpent one who was originally going to be Set, etc.





Yes but those three represent pretty basic god niches, God of Magic, non-evil Death god, Snake Mosnters, that were either filled by earlier edition's dieties, Kelemvor or Mystra, or common sense, he has lots of snake monsters.

I do feel like Duergar and Derro would be an excellent fit for Torog worshipers.

The bit about Jailers still messes me up. Creatures that live in caves and people that torture, sure. Like something from the movie Hostel or The Descent.  But Jailers?  Maybe this is me putting too much of my own worldview in to things but Jailers , and jails, are at least in theory typically good things. They keep bad people from hurting innocents and they imply a culture that cares enough to not just execute or banish their criminals. while I get the thematic relation of cold dark places you can't escape from I can't get my head around guards and warden's paying homage to formless horror of cosmic proportions. Slavery makes a lot more sense. Unless I;m missing some vital piece of the puzzle.


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## malraux (Oct 28, 2008)

demonsquidgod said:


> Unless I;m missing some vital piece of the puzzle.




Well, you're applying a modern sensibility to an ostensibly premodern world.


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## Voadam (Oct 28, 2008)

demonsquidgod said:


> Yes but those three represent pretty basic god niches, God of Magic, non-evil Death god, Snake Mosnters, that were either filled by earlier edition's dieties, Kelemvor or Mystra, or common sense, he has lots of snake monsters.
> 
> I do feel like Duergar and Derro would be an excellent fit for Torog worshipers.
> 
> The bit about Jailers still messes me up. Creatures that live in caves and people that torture, sure. Like something from the movie Hostel or The Descent.  But Jailers?  Maybe this is me putting too much of my own worldview in to things but Jailers , and jails, are at least in theory typically good things. They keep bad people from hurting innocents and they imply a culture that cares enough to not just execute or banish their criminals. while I get the thematic relation of cold dark places you can't escape from I can't get my head around guards and warden's paying homage to formless horror of cosmic proportions. Slavery makes a lot more sense. Unless I;m missing some vital piece of the puzzle.




I don't recognize Avandra, Erathis, Ioun, Melora, Raven Queen, Torog, and Zehir from previous editions.

Just to nitpick Ioun is a god of knowledge, skill, and prophecy, Corellon is the god of magic, Ioun just the study of magic.

Torturers are all jailors. You only torture those you have captured. Jails are punitive, you throw people into dungeons as punishment and confinement.

Jailors as good guys locking away lawbreakers and punishing the unjust would fall under the auspices of Erathis and Bahamut for their law and justice portfolios. It is a soul-corrupting environment though and evil seeps up from below.


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## doctorhook (Oct 28, 2008)

demonsquidgod said:


> The bit about Jailers still messes me up. Creatures that live in caves and people that torture, sure. Like something from the movie Hostel or The Descent.  But Jailers?  Maybe this is me putting too much of my own worldview in to things but Jailers , and jails, are at least in theory typically good things. They keep bad people from hurting innocents and they imply a culture that cares enough to not just execute or banish their criminals. while I get the thematic relation of cold dark places you can't escape from I can't get my head around guards and warden's paying homage to formless horror of cosmic proportions. Slavery makes a lot more sense. Unless I;m missing some vital piece of the puzzle.



Consider Torog to be the god of imprisonment, rather than "jails", if it helps make more sense. Torog is the patron of loss of mobility, rights, and personal freedoms.

The Underdark connection, I believe, is rooted in the fact that the Underdark is a world confined. Unlike the great, wide surface above, the Underdark realms are literally encased in stone. Consider that, in D&D culture, the Underdark/"deep beneath the earth" has traditionally been a common place for powerful and dangerous beings to be trapped or imprisoned. (Think Khyber from Eberron, or the _imprisonment_ spell.)

This is how I see things.


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## greyscale1 (Oct 28, 2008)

In my campaign the player's very religious characters will soon be interacting with some lawful good ShadarKai who worship Torog more as a patron diety than anything else. To them, he is almost the Erathis of the shadows.


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## Snoweel (Oct 28, 2008)

In premodern societies (as has already been said, these are ostensibly the model for D&D societies) jail wasn't about benign incarceration or social rehabilitation.

Jail was about punishment, pain and torture. The kinds of people that ran these places were sick sociopaths who *wanted* to hurt people. See the torturers in Passion of the Christ and the jailers in Life of Brian ("Not as nasty as something I just thought of sir!")


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## Blair Goatsblood (Oct 28, 2008)

Torog is the god of the bottomless pit. Sacrifices are cast into unwholesome abysses in the deep earth.

Torog is the great maggot, a dhole god, a massive worm that gnaws at the roots of the world like Nidhogg.

Torog is the deity of cursed treasures, luring seekers into trapped vaults in the depth of the earth, guarded by amorphous sardonic avatars.

Torog is the great reeking toad-lizard worshiped by Troglodytes and toad-things.

Torog whispers into the dreams of those men of sadistic nature and subterranean habitat.


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## doctorhook (Oct 29, 2008)

Blair Goatsblood said:


> Torog is the god of the bottomless pit. Sacrifices are cast into unwholesome abysses in the deep earth.
> 
> Torog is the great maggot, a dhole god, a massive worm that gnaws at the roots of the world like Nidhogg.
> 
> ...



This sounds pretty cool. Where did you find it?


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## demonsquidgod (Oct 29, 2008)

Of course, Torog isn't about jails, he's about DUNGEONS! You're just as likely to be thrown in a dungeon for displeasing the king in some arbitrary way as you are for theft or murder. And they stick red hot pokers up your nethers and put your head on a pike. Iron maidens, the rack, thumb screws, etc.

Not a jail at all.


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## Snoweel (Oct 29, 2008)

I just read a story about a bloke who served as a UN peacekeeper in the Congo back in the 60's.

One day his section caught some rebels raping and torturing a young nun. That was nothing compared to what they'd done to the old nun and the old bloke who worked there with them.

Certainly, being creative and being twisted are not mutually exclusive.

I guess worshippers of Torog could be some truly sick freaks.


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## demonsquidgod (Oct 29, 2008)

Snoweel said:


> I guess worshippers of Torog could be some truly sick freaks.





Well, looking more closely at the god's entry in the DMG 







			
				DMG said:
			
		

> He
> teaches his worshipers to:
> ✦ Seek out and revere the deep places beneath the
> earth.
> ...




In those last two with the pain you receive and binding tightly we've got strong hints at masochism and bondage.  I wonder if leather hoods or masks are popular with Torog cultists?

Torog cultists don't just kill, they kidnap you and then torture and degrade you as long as they can for no reason other than the enjoyment of that torture. Carried away bound and gagged in to the endless caves it's conceivable one might stay their victim for years or even decades.


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## Snoweel (Oct 29, 2008)

I heard they make you walk around holding onto them by the pocket and avoiding eye contact with others.


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## izzordad (Sep 11, 2009)

4E MM  page 253.....Troglodytes worship a variety of loathsome deities particularly Torog, "the King that Crawls".


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## The_Gneech (Sep 11, 2009)

Blair Goatsblood said:


> Torog is the god of the bottomless pit. Sacrifices are cast into unwholesome abysses in the deep earth.
> 
> Torog is the great maggot, a dhole god, a massive worm that gnaws at the roots of the world like Nidhogg.
> 
> ...




Torog is a little purple bird, chirping in a meadow.

Torog is a chaplet of pretty flowers, which smell _bad_.

Are you sure your circuits are registering correctly? Your ears are green.

-The Gneech


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## Obryn (Sep 11, 2009)

Voadam said:


> I don't recognize Avandra, Erathis, Ioun, Melora, Raven Queen, Torog, and Zehir from previous editions.



NWN2's second expansion is called Storm of Zehir, but then again it was released after 4e...  Hmmm...

-O


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## Nebulous (Sep 11, 2009)

Shroomy said:


> Nope, in that module, Torog was competing with Baphomet for the worship of a group of minotaurs. Torog is a god, not a demon lord; he's the god of the Underdark, jailers, and torturers.




In Thunderspire, i made him into a Far Realm entity.  Over the past 1000 years, since the fall of Saruun Khel, Baphomet and Torog worshipers were all but extinct.  But then troglodytes starting worshipping Torog again, his power began to grow, and now mention of his name - Torog - other than just saying "The King Who Crawls" causes cockroaches and centipdes to sometimes crawl over the speaker.


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## Michele Carter (Sep 11, 2009)

Torog gets a lot of attention in the upcoming _Underdark_ book. He's demented and sad, but social.


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## Shroomy (Sep 11, 2009)

WotC_Miko said:


> Torog gets a lot of attention in the upcoming _Underdark_ book. He's demented and sad, but social.




I figured he'd get a lot of attention there.  I'm assuming that he'll below level 36 and get stats...


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## LostSoul (Sep 11, 2009)

That Underdark book sounds cool.

In my game any dungeon becomes corrupt due to Torog's influence if it's not maintained.  A tower, a tomb beneath a monestary, a cistern beneath a ruined city, a mad wizard's lab - all these will succumb to his influence once they are abandoned.  Pools turn into oozes, cracks open up and creatures from the underdark move in, etc.  Generally speaking the dungeon takes on a life of its own.

I got that idea from someone here, I can't remember who.

Anyways, I just had an idea.  The gods joined together to chain Tharizdun, right?  Torog was ultimately corrupted by that act.  Torog watches the Gate and holds the Key.


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## frankthedm (Sep 11, 2009)

demonsquidgod said:


> The bit about Jailers still messes me up. Creatures that live in caves and people that torture, sure. Like something from the movie Hostel or The Descent.  But Jailers?  Maybe this is me putting too much of my own worldview in to things but Jailers , and jails, are at least in theory typically good things. They keep bad people from hurting innocents and they imply a culture that cares enough to not just execute or banish their criminals. while I get the thematic relation of cold dark places you can't escape from I can't get my head around guards and warden's paying homage to formless horror of cosmic proportions. Slavery makes a lot more sense. Unless I;m missing some vital piece of the puzzle.



Common folks don't have access to the rulebooks to see who is on the Axis of Evil Alignment and Evil god's portfolios sometimes do have useful aspects to the non evil.

Sure Bahamut will fight the _thing_ if need be, but if you want that _Aberration_ sleeping beneath the black mountain to stay sleeping, a prayer to Torog can save everyone a lot of trouble.

_Hail Torog, Binder of the Darkness Below. Your Persecution of the Wicked keeps the World safe. Your Vigilance keeps the Foulness Bound. May we always walk the path of light so that You need not know us_


And here is a link for Prison - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## coyote6 (Sep 11, 2009)

LostSoul said:


> Anyways, I just had an idea.  The gods joined together to chain Tharizdun, right?  Torog was ultimately corrupted by that act.  Torog watches the Gate and holds the Key.




I like that. Very Nietzschean -- gazing into the Abyss & all.

Maybe Torog was a tough fellow before, which is why he got to be jailer, but being Tharizdun's jailer hardened him. "Rough" became "callous" which in turn became "cruel" and on into outright sadism. As his essence was corrupted, his form changed as well; tie him back to Urdlen, and maybe eons ago, he was a gnome. Have svirfneblin shown up in 4e yet? The gnomish, vole-like god of the underdark becomes Torog, to keep Tharizdun imprisoned.


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## frankthedm (Sep 11, 2009)

WotC_Miko said:


> Torog gets a lot of attention in the upcoming _Underdark_ book. He's demented and sad, but social.





LostSoul said:


> Anyways, I just had an idea.  The gods joined together to chain Tharizdun, right?  Torog was ultimately corrupted by that act.  Torog watches the Gate and holds the Key.





coyote6 said:


> Maybe Torog was a tough fellow before, which is why he got to be jailer, but being Tharizdun's jailer hardened him. "Rough" became "callous" which in turn became "cruel" and on into outright sadism. As his essence was corrupted, his form changed as well;



Yes, those mesh together well. Torog being corrupted by his charges seems a delightful idea. A thoroughly evil, but pitiable god.

Even on a small scale, like when Torog is _trying_ to keep a caster in the grave by having vermin devour every last bit of the sorcerer in question. Instead, the caster co-opts the vermin, becoming a _Worm that Walks_.


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## Klaus (Sep 11, 2009)

MM2 tidbit: centipedes are the sacred animals of Torog.


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## catsclaw227 (Sep 11, 2009)

Klaus said:


> MM2 tidbit: centipedes are the sacred animals of Torog.



And centipedes and millipedes are the creepiest of crawlies... If you have ever seen one of those big centipedes in real life or had one crawl near you it is a goose-bumpy creepy experience.  Ewwww.


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## Hexmage-EN (Dec 15, 2009)

Man, these are some pretty cool ideas. I suddenly like Torog a lot more. Making him the god of torture, imprisonment and slavery seems a lot more interesting than just being the god of the Underdark.

I'll see to it from now on that any dungeon I create that serves as a prison will be dedicated to Torog.


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## Nahat Anoj (Dec 15, 2009)

Hexmage-EN said:


> Man, these are some pretty cool ideas. I suddenly like Torog a lot more. Making him the god of torture, imprisonment and slavery seems a lot more interesting than just being the god of the Underdark.
> 
> I'll see to it from now on that any dungeon I create that serves as a prison will be dedicated to Torog.



Well, from various _Underdark _excerpts we have many more details on Torog now.  He's not so much god of the Underdark as he is trapped there.  At some point during the Dawn Age, he got imprisoned in the nascent Underdark.  In his rage, he tried to smash out but couldn't, so he "smashed sideways" and - so the story goes - created the network of tunnels and caves that is today called the Underdark.

Torog is the patron god of jailers, slavers, and torturers, but somewhat ironically he, too, is jailed, enslaved, and tortured.  He never ascended to the Astral Sea - instead, he has his torture palaces in the deepest reaches of the Underdark.  

It seems like the Underdark is an imperfect buffer zone between the world and the Elemental Chaos, and that Torog keeps several very powerful entities - primordials or otherwise - imprisoned there.  In addition, it seems like the Underdark has many cracks in reality that let aberrant creatures from the Far Realm into the world.  

Hopefully _Underdark _will detail some reasons for why Torog got stuck in the depths below in the first place.  Whatever he did, it was bad, because to this day the elder spirit called the World Serpent will crush Torog if he tries to get out of his prison.


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## vic20 (Dec 15, 2009)

knightofround said:


> I wish I could give XP just for the Torgo reference =/




why can't you? i did.


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## TerraDave (Dec 15, 2009)

"Who is Torog?"

The new Raven Queen.


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## the Jester (Dec 15, 2009)

LostSoul said:


> That Underdark book sounds cool.
> 
> In my game any dungeon becomes corrupt due to Torog's influence if it's not maintained.  A tower, a tomb beneath a monestary, a cistern beneath a ruined city, a mad wizard's lab - all these will succumb to his influence once they are abandoned.  Pools turn into oozes, cracks open up and creatures from the underdark move in, etc.  Generally speaking the dungeon takes on a life of its own.




That is a great "dungeon as mythic underworld" approach- I think I'll take it up myself!


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