# Microlite20 : the smallest thing in gaming



## greywulf

A request on this thread for information about the quickest and easiest RPGs that you can buy and understand in a day got me thinking. Y'know, it happens.

Sometimes you want to run a role-playing game, but don’t want to be surrounded by hundreds of books. You don’t want do be bogged down by a thousand and one rules either, but run something that’s fast, compact and easy to set up.

There are plenty of light-weight games out there, and probably just as many gamers who’d recommend each one. A particular favourite is RISUS, a game of almost zen-like simplicity.

It’s good, but what I want is something slightly different. I’ve been looking for something that’s small and simple, but also compatible enough with D&D that it’s possible to use the monsters, adventures and entire campaign settings with little work. Ideally, it should use the same terminology. There are some pretty good options out there, including True20 and Castles & Crusades. Both of these offer a more streamlined version of the d20 system, but add in a few more twists of their own that I’d like. While it is possible to use either of these system to run published d20 adventures, there’s more conversion involved than would be possible at the gaming table.

So, I’ve created my own. d20 Microlite  is a 2 page pdf containing character generation, combat and rules for magic, monsters and level advancement. I’ve ripped the guts out of d20 leaving just the essence of the game. Skills are much simplified, there are no feats and combat is as simple as it gets.

A few changes have been made to better suit my own playing preference, but you should be able to recognise it’s D&D roots. Most importantly, any D&D adventure, game or supplement should be usable on the table with little or no advance preparation.

So, here's the question. Is this something usable or worthwile for other groups out there? The plan wasn't to shrink all of d20 into 2 pages (impossible, I hear you cry!), but to make something near-enough to keep the spirit of the game alive. If you can print a copy up and fold it inside a copy of Dungeon for an evening's gaming, all the better.

Oh, and blame scourger. He suggested I start a new thread about this


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## scourger

greywulf said:
			
		

> Oh, and blame scourger. He suggested I start a new thread about this




Yes, I did!  I think this is a great idea.  I don't know if my players will embrace it, but I'm going to give it a try.


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## RFisher

greywulf said:
			
		

> So, here's the question. Is this something usable or worthwile for other groups out there? The plan wasn't to shrink all of d20 into 2 pages (impossible, I hear you cry!), but to make something near-enough to keep the spirit of the game alive. If you can print a copy up and fold it inside a copy of Dungeon for an evening's gaming, all the better.




Seems worthwhile to me. Since the other people in my group are d20 fans, I've sworn off DMing d20, & I'm often called on to DM; it might be something my group would use.


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## Particle_Man

1) What counts as a light weapon?  Is this different for halflings?  Can halflings use rapiers as light weapons?  Are there weapons halflings cannot use?  Do halflings use fewer weapons or special "halfing sized versions" of weapons?

2) Can one "charge attack" as the one thing one does per round?  If not, I don't see the advantage of moving towards the enemy when you could wait for them to move towards you (and be unable to attack) and then you hit them when it is time for your action.

3) High level player hit points seem freakishly low compared to, say, that dragon you statted up, or the damage of spells (if they are just ripped from the d20 spell list).  That may be intentional?

4) Do Magic Items exist in your game?


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## greywulf

Good questions 



			
				Particle_Man said:
			
		

> 1) What counts as a light weapon?  Is this different for halflings?  Can halflings use rapiers as light weapons?  Are there weapons halflings cannot use?  Do halflings use fewer weapons or special "halfing sized versions" of weapons?




It's light if the d20 SRD says it's a light weapon. It uses the d20 equipment lists after all. In the weapons I list in the sidebar on the page the dagger and shortsword count as light. So does the rapier, but that's a special case.

Halflings use the same weapons as anyone else. I decided to ditch the whole "weapon size" thing. Yes, weapon sizes are more realistic, but it also adds in a whole lot of unnecessary rulesery into the proceedings. It always made treasure allocation a pain. On the one hand, weapon damage is more realistic, but then it's completely wrecked when the players "just happen" to find right-sized magic items for their party. Sheesh. Other games get by without it, so it's gone.

I left things as "anyone can use anything" when it comes to weapons, though the GM is of course free to rule otherwise. I'd suggest that halflings prefer light weapons anyway thanks to their higher DEX. Remember that Fighters and Rogues can use their DEX bonus instead for those. In d20 terms, they get Weapon Finesse for free. 



			
				Particle_Man said:
			
		

> 2) Can one "charge attack" as the one thing one does per round?  If not, I don't see the advantage of moving towards the enemy when you could wait for them to move towards you (and be unable to attack) and then you hit them when it is time for your action.




There's no distances given, so it's all "in your head" fantasy. I'd run that like this:

Round 1
Player: I charge the Orcs!
GM: Cool. The Orcs bare their teeth and ready their axes. There's the glint of victory in their eyes. You'll be at +2 to hit  on your next attack

Round 2
Player: I slash the first Orc
GM: ....

And combat continues.

Alernatively, the Orcs could have charged too and met the charge on round one. You'd both be at +2 to hit the next round, which kinda negates each other.

Or they could fire missile weapons. What they couldn't do is attack the first round, as (in effect) you're still some distance away. You're moving to meet them at the start of your next round, not run=>stop=>be hit by orcs=>hit back. That would be silly 



			
				Particle_Man said:
			
		

> 3) High level player hit points seem freakishly low compared to, say, that dragon you statted up, or the damage of spells (if they are just ripped from the d20 spell list).  That may be intentional?




Yep, totally. Makes for higher low-level survivability (and magic costs Hit Points), but things get Very Deadly, Very Quickly. It's also why I reduced the damage from criticals. But it makes magic and Big Critters epic things to be defeated with care and respect, not treated as Just One More Kill. It's a much grittier game in that respect.

As to magic, any spell that does more than 3d6 damage will probably be save-or-die for a single character. You'll either need good saves, or (better yet) plan ahead and use tactics to avoid the danger.

If that doesn't suit your idea of good gaming then change Hit Points so the characters get STR Stat + d6 each level, or something. That's cool too. 



			
				Particle_Man said:
			
		

> 4) Do Magic Items exist in your game?




Magic weapons work as per SRD. Your +1 Longsword still gives, +1 to hit, +1 damage, etc.

I'd be tempted to drop Masterwork items though, and apply penalties for poor-quality workmanship instead. That's up to you though.

Hope that helps


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## Turanil

After reading it, it looks like mages and clerics are totally overpowered compared to fighters and rogues. Has this been playtested?


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## Nadaka

That is kinda interesting. I especially like your XP rules. It makes it very simple.

One thing I note however is the raw utility granted to your cleric/wizard with having all spells known. Basically what you are saying is that a spellcaster can solve any and every challenge that there exists a spell to over come. If the goal is to be simple, this breaks your mold as it gives them dozens or even hundred of options.

I also note that everyone gets the same (or nearly so) HP and attack. This seems to short change your fighter and rogue in the combat department compared to the spellcasters. Especially considering that the spellcasters recieve level scaling benifits while the fighter and rogue do not.

One of the things that I like is balance and choice. I think that you can retain both of these qualities even with something as simple as suggested. With your current setup, the cleric comes out the clear winner, followed by the wizard, fighter and the rogue (who only has light armor and "finesse" as class features).

I would propose a slight restructuring.
Qualities: A quality is a feature of a class that is gained at first level. (Im not shure if you want to include the option to multiclass or not).

Talents: A talent is feature that is gained every odd level. Talents should be relatively balanced vs each other. Every class has a (very) short list of talents to choose from.

Analasis of your current classes:
Fighter
qualities:
-all armor + shields
-combat bonus (+1 to hit/damage)
-finesse
talents: 
-none

Rogue
qualities:
-light armor
-finesse
Talents:
-none

Mage
Qualities:
-no armor
-all spells known
-signature spell? (-1 drain to 1 or 2 spells)? DM dependant
Talents:
-increased spell level castable (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10?)

Cleric
Qualities:
-Light & medium armor
-all spells known
-signature spell? (-1 drain to 1 or 2 spells)? DM dependant
Talents:
-increased spell level castable (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10?)

Using this basic assessment, fighters are just better than rogues. Clerics are just better than wizards. And spellcasters have vast options that increase in number and power as the level, and no one else does.

Suggestions.
Class qualities:
Fighter: +3 physical, any armor and shield, finesse
Total: 4 (3 for armor, 1 for finesse)

Rogue: +3 subterfuge,  light armor,finesse, bonus talent
Total: 4(1 for armor, 1 for finesse, 2 for a bonus talent)

Mage: +3 knowledge, No armor, arcane spellcasting(3spells/level known), signature spell
Total: 4(0 for armor, 3 for good spellcasting, 1 for signature spell

Cleric: +3 Communication, light or medium armor, divine spellcasting (2spells/level known)
Total: 4(2 for armor, 2 for decent spellcasting)

Note on spellcasting:
It grants the ability to use all 0 level spells on your spell list +(2|3) first level spells from your spell list. As you gain levels you add more spells known, limited by the maximum level of spells you can cast. To increase that maximum level, you have to take Spellcasting talents.

Class Talents (pick 1 at each odd level including first)
Fighter:
-Combat Proficiency: +1 to hit, +1 to damage
-Accuracy: +2 attack (this is mostly to compensate for everyone having the same BAB)
-Might: +2 damage
-Toughness: +3 HP
-?

Rogue:
-Skilled: pick a skill, gain +3 to it.
-deadly(may not be selected more than once at first level): +1d6 "sneak attack" damage to anyone that has not yet acted in the round.
-?

Mage:
-Increased Arcane Spells(level 3 or higher): increased castable spell level (1->2->3->4->5 etc).
-signature spell: -1 drain for a specific spell casting.
-?

Cleric:
- Increased Divine Spells(level 3 or higher): increased castable spell level (1->2->3->4->5 etc).
-signature spell: -1 drain for a specific spell casting.
-turn undead: 1/day: make a communication(mind) check, with a DC = 10 + hit dice of undead, if successful it flees. If you beat it by 10 or more it is instead destroyed.
-?

Its not really that much more complicated, but IMO it has better balance. The rogue returns to his place as a master of skills with the option of being backstabbity. The fighter is the unquestioned master of combat. The spellcasters have limited spell choices to keep them simple as well. 

Does this change interest you? I tried to keep it about as simple as possible.


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## The Lost Muse

That's a really neat little system you've got there. Since it is free, you should be ok, but you might want to take the "d20" out and replace "Core d20" with Core Rulebooks, and add a copy of the Open GAme Licence. Since you have included rules for advancing characters, you can't technically call it a d20 product. (Caveat: I am not a lawyer.)


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## greywulf

Eeep! This thread is now longer than the entire rules 

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone. I'll try to address each in turn.

Turanil: yes, we playtested it last night and it works well, at least for a one-shot adventure. It plays a _lot_ faster than core D&D. Oddly enough, when the rules are reduced, the role-playing increases. I'm sure others have found the same thing using other systems.

Mages and Clerics aren't that overpowered, because they're limited by how many Hit Points they are willing to spend casting spells. We found that the Mage in the party (Cholmer, the sample mage in the pdf) didn't want to go below half his Hit Points, so that's only 6x0 level spells, or just 3x1st level spells, or a combination thereof. So, he had a lot of freedom of choice, but had to think tactically about the _when_. In discussion afterwards, the Mage and Cleric players both said they liked it - it was more akin to magic from fantasy fiction, where a spellcaster could visualise what he wanted (Will and the Word, etc) and it would work, and the only limitation was how much power their Mortal Shells could hold. Something like that, anyway. We thought magic items that stored "Hit Points" that could be used to cast spells would be Very Cool. A Hit Point storing Staff would be an essential item of equipment for all Magi above 4th level.

Nadaka: I kinda liked the XP rules too, thanks. I'm proud of those. See above for my thoughts about magic. 

Regards balance, Rogues do look to be short-changed, but in play, they're not. That +3 Subterfuge is just too darned useful, as it covers a huge gamut of "core" adventuring skills including Hide (Sub + DEX), Move Silently (Sub + DEX), Search/Spot (Sub + MIND), Disable Device & Open Locks (Sub + DEX), even knocking out a guard (Sub + STR)  and others. In one version of the rules I put that Rogues also get +1 to Initiative too, to reflect their quick-thinking, work on your feet nature. I'm still tempted to include it. What you think?

I did think long and hard about giving Rogues some kind of Sneak attack, but figured if this isn't miniatures gaming, but Imagination Gaming then flank rules don't apply. I figure if anyone can sneak up on an Orc and stab him, they'll get a bonus in my game. It's just that Rogues (with that all-important +3 Subterfuge) are move likely to do it, and succeed. No rule or "class feature" needed. The idea was to zenify D&D, not duplicate it.

In a similar vein, I skipped feats entirely because too many of them right now are just meta-game functions anyhow, or stuff that's better suited to in-play ad-hoc bonuses. Get rid of AoO, movement and miniatures and the Useful Feat Count drops by a third. Knock out the sorcerer/wizard dichtonomy and wave bye bye to some more. If a Mage wants to brew a potion or scribe a scoll after the adventure, they can. It's What Mages Do. Same for other construction feats. If they're high enough level (GM call), they can. What's the point having feats that only work in between adventures anyhow? That's like having a "Set up shop and sell stuff" feat 

(This isn't a criticism of d20 itself, btw. I love the game, but purposefully wanted to create something lighter by cutting the chaff)

All that said, I love your suggestions, and I'm thankful to you for taking time to respond. Certainly, if it works for you, do it that way. I suggest you try playing the system as is first, though.

Timmundo: you're right, my bad. Anyone know if it's possible to display the OGL license in 2pt type in a footer? I /do/ want to keep within 2 pages  Maybe I'll have to rename it to something else. Maybe "1d20 Microlite" or something!

Thank again, all.


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## Nadaka

another point in favor of the original system you suggest is the way saves work. with your saves based on skill that scales with level and the spell dc based on spell level that advances at half that rate, it will be impossible for anyone to fail a savings throw against a spell at higher level.

by 14th level a human can't fail a save even against a save he is weak on, even on a 1 against an equal level caster assuming thier ability modifiers are the same. Its level 9 if its a save the target is strong with. By 17th level even a nonhuman against thier weakest save cant fail against a 9th level spell assuming that the caster and target have similar attributes.

Add to that items granting save bonuses and expect spells that allow a save to be completely useless (except save for half damage types, with your reduced hp the half damage still looks really good).


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## grimwell

This streamlining of the system would make for a good way to introduce new players to the game. Run a brief campaign driven by these concepts, and then expand later into a fuller campaign with the entire rule set once the fundamentals are comfortable in the persons mind.

I can also see how this would be good to introduce children to gaming. Something I intend to do this winter.

Any chance you would put it in non-pdf format under the OGL when you are done tweaking? That would make it easier for people to hack in their house rules without printing separate pages.


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## greywulf

Nadaka: Cool. I hadn't thought of that, so I'd take that to be an unexpected advantage. That's more of a side-effect of the way d20 spell saves work, I guess.

To my mind, anything that make the players (or GM, in the guise of evil NPC baddies) think tactically (by which I mean: overcoming obstacles like magic being hard to affect higher level characters) is a Good Thing. 

So, if the ninth-level spell Power Word: Invert Internal Organs is a great spell, but it'll only affect lower-level characters (because of their relatively poor saves), then the high-level mage has to think harder against more powerful opponents rather than expecting their magic to solve all problems. Maybe it's also why evil Magi tend to capture the Weak Girlfriend and threaten to incinerate her rather than the High-Level Hero.

That said, it won't be impossible for them to save - situation modifiers are all important here. Anything that puts a penalty on MIND is the key to getting magic through. This could be anything from annoying buzzing noises to Confusion spells and Insantiy. Also consider spells that affect the environment too. Rock to mud on the floor will affect DEX-based saves. Then toss in a fireball. Tactics. It's all about tactics


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## greywulf

grimwell said:
			
		

> Any chance you would put it in non-pdf format under the OGL when you are done tweaking? That would make it easier for people to hack in their house rules without printing separate pages.




Will do! I'll post it up as an .rtf for anyone's pleasure when I'm done.


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## jmucchiello

greywulf said:
			
		

> Timmundo: you're right, my bad. Anyone know if it's possible to display the OGL license in 2pt type in a footer? I /do/ want to keep within 2 pages  Maybe I'll have to rename it to something else. Maybe "1d20 Microlite" or something!



Maybe you could make the OGL into a border... 

But seriously, everything Tim said is true. I find it amusing that you called it microlite. That was my working title (OGL Microlite) for a similar rules reduction. (Though my goals did not include monster/spell/etc compatibility.)


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## greywulf

jmucchiello said:
			
		

> Maybe you could make the OGL into a border...




Or as a watermark.....hmmmmmmmmmmm...........

Seriously though, I've updated the PDF so it's got the OGL at the end. It's up to you whether you print it out or not, I guess


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## Aeric

greywulf said:
			
		

> There's no distances given, so it's all "in your head" fantasy. I'd run that like this:
> 
> Round 1
> Player: I charge the Orcs!
> GM: Cool. The Orcs bare their teeth and ready their axes. There's the glint of victory in their eyes. You'll be at +2 to hit  on your next attack
> 
> Round 2
> Player: I slash the first Orc
> GM: ....
> 
> And combat continues.
> 
> Alernatively, the Orcs could have charged too and met the charge on round one. You'd both be at +2 to hit the next round, which kinda negates each other.
> 
> Or they could fire missile weapons. What they couldn't do is attack the first round, as (in effect) you're still some distance away. You're moving to meet them at the start of your next round, not run=>stop=>be hit by orcs=>hit back. That would be silly




Hooray for fudging encounter distances!  Burn your [strike]bras[/strike] battlemaps!   

After suffering through two campaigns that were very heavy on the dungeon crawl, I have decided that my next campaign will have very few dungeons, and of those dungeons that do exist, I will not be drawing out the map (or describing the layout in enough detail for the players to map it, i.e. "a 20' long, 5' wide corridor," etc.) be glossing over every room that doesn't have something interesting in it.  There's no worse feeling than entering an empty dungeon room.  What a waste of time!  Instead, I will say "after about an hour of searching through various empty rooms, uninhabited barracks, and the like, you encounter...."  It make take a bit of control out of the players' hands, but in the long run I think the game will benefit from it.


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## scourger

greywulf said:
			
		

> Oddly enough, when the rules are reduced, the role-playing increases. I'm sure others have found the same thing using other systems.




Yes.  This is one of the reasons I'm into some other systems right now.


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## Turanil

greywulf said:
			
		

> Will do! I'll post it up as an .rtf for anyone's pleasure when I'm done.



Waiting for it... (bump).


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## greywulf

Turanil said:
			
		

> Waiting for it... (bump).




And here it is 

Enjoy.


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## Turanil

Ah! cool! I had mistaken it for "Simple 20", and when lokking at Simple 20 I thought "_Hum, the first version was better, why all those changes? I should better to track down the original thread..._". Now I see that Microlite d20 and Simple 20 are two very different things...


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## Technomancer

Greywulf,

Just from reading it over once, why would anyone play a rogue? Fighters have more armor choices and get the bonus to attack and damage, wizards and clerics get their spells, but the rogue gets nothing but a +3 to one skill, which all the other classes get as well in addition to their other abilities.


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## Nadaka

Technomancer said:
			
		

> Greywulf,
> 
> Just from reading it over once, why would anyone play a rogue? Fighters have more armor choices and get the bonus to attack and damage, wizards and clerics get their spells, but the rogue gets nothing but a +3 to one skill, which all the other classes get as well in addition to their other abilities.




because the DM lets the rogue get away with a lot of stuff using that skill that might not seem obvious? 

Its one of the reasons I suggested adding class features to the fighter and especially the rogue.


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## greywulf

Technomancer said:
			
		

> Greywulf,
> 
> Just from reading it over once, why would anyone play a rogue? Fighters have more armor choices and get the bonus to attack and damage, wizards and clerics get their spells, but the rogue gets nothing but a +3 to one skill, which all the other classes get as well in addition to their other abilities.




I've covered this already in this thread:

/snip
: Regards balance, Rogues do look to be short-changed, but in play, they're not. That +3 Subterfuge is just too darned useful, as it covers a huge gamut of "core" adventuring skills including Hide (Sub + DEX), Move Silently (Sub + DEX), Search/Spot (Sub + MIND), Disable Device & Open Locks (Sub + DEX), even knocking out a guard (Sub + STR) and others. In one version of the rules I put that Rogues also get +1 to Initiative too, to reflect their quick-thinking, work on your feet nature. I'm still tempted to include it. What you think?


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## Wik

I really like the simplified skill system - that's awesome stuff, there.


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## Technomancer

greywulf said:
			
		

> I've covered this already in this thread:
> 
> /snip
> : Regards balance, Rogues do look to be short-changed, but in play, they're not. That +3 Subterfuge is just too darned useful, as it covers a huge gamut of "core" adventuring skills including Hide (Sub + DEX), Move Silently (Sub + DEX), Search/Spot (Sub + MIND), Disable Device & Open Locks (Sub + DEX), even knocking out a guard (Sub + STR) and others. In one version of the rules I put that Rogues also get +1 to Initiative too, to reflect their quick-thinking, work on your feet nature. I'm still tempted to include it. What you think?



Sorry, missed that. I guess they are the skill monkeys in this game too.

And I too love the simplified mix-and-match skill system.


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## kroh

Spectabulous!  Nice set of rules ya got there.

Regards,
Walt


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## bytor4232

Very nice!  I'll probably run a few dungeon crawls or Dungeon Mag adventures off this ruleset.  I love the fact that its compatible with existing d20 stuff.  

I'm putting this in my Monster Binder, where I keep all my customized and converted monsters.  At best, it may be usefull for generating quick and dirty NPC's.


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## greywulf

Wow! I'm glad y'all like it. 

As a GM, what I enjoyed was just how easy it  is to create monsters on the fly. Want a 2 HD tough critter (a hobgoblin guard say) - that'll be HD2, +4 club d6+2, +5 physical and other skills @ +2. And all straight off the top of my head, no table lookysee stuff at all.

What the players liked was the fast pace of play. The advancement rules kept things flowing too; there was no stopping to calculate XP after combat to break the atmosphere. I just totted up the ELs for the adventure at the end, and that was that.


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## greywulf

Many, many thanks to Mark over at Creative Mountain Games who's fixed the license for d20 Microlite and made it all nice and compliant for us. By us, I of course mean me. Thanks, Mark!

It's hereby renamed to Microlite20 and avialable here:

- Microlite20.pdf 
- Microlite20.rtf

Ain't sharing stuff grand


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## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> Wow! I'm glad y'all like it.
> 
> As a GM, what I enjoyed was just how easy it  is to create monsters on the fly. Want a 2 HD tough critter (a hobgoblin guard say) - that'll be HD2, +4 club d6+2, +5 physical and other skills @ +2. And all straight off the top of my head, no table lookysee stuff at all.
> 
> What the players liked was the fast pace of play. The advancement rules kept things flowing too; there was no stopping to calculate XP after combat to break the atmosphere. I just totted up the ELs for the adventure at the end, and that was that.




I like how compatible it is with existing D&D stuff.  I tried a little playtesting tonight.  I rolled up three characters in about five minutes.  Fought a dire badger from the srd.  Then I fought three orcs.  It went great, no compatibilty problems at all.  If anything, the party was a little "too" powerful.


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## bytor4232

I passed the word about your ruleset over at DNDOG.  Its getting very positive reception so far.  

Congrats on the great little system!


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## greywulf

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> I like how compatible it is with existing D&D stuff.  I tried a little playtesting tonight.  I rolled up three characters in about five minutes.  Fought a dire badger from the srd.  Then I fought three orcs.  It went great, no compatibilty problems at all.  If anything, the party was a little "too" powerful.




Great!

We found that at lower levels the party was a little more powerful than your typical 1st level characters. That's mainly thanks to the higher starting Hit Points. The jury it still out as to whether that's a bug or a feature though.

Two of the players liked that (the Fighter and the Mage, mainly because Hit Points fuel his spells), the other two - the Cleric and the Rogue - want to play more before they decide. So, we'll see.

As has been suggeted before, that does make it a good system for introducing new players as they're less likely to die at lower levels because of silly tactical errors ("I charge the Umber Hulk!").

Thanks for sharing


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## MeepoDM

Greywulf, this is very cool!  Nice work, indeed.  

Any future plans for iddy-biddy character sheets or pint sized adventure modules?


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## greywulf

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> Any future plans for iddy-biddy character sheets or pint sized adventure modules?




Now you're just being greedy!

Actually, I have thrown together a character-generator spreadsheet in Gnumeric (it's a Linux spreadsheet app).

Here it is , and here's the file converted to Excel. There's no guarantees about the Excel version, so you might need to hack it around a little to suit.

I like the idea of pint-sized adventures. Hmmmmmmmmmm...............


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## MeepoDM

Greedy?  Nah... 

Seriously, I just really dig the idea of a complete RPG that can fit in your back pocket (minus the dice - ouch!) and whipped out for a quick one-shot session any ol' time.  

But besides the tiny (read: cute) and portable nature of this game you've created, I happen to think it is a really solid idea.  True to the nature of D&D, 98% compatible with d20 products, and surprisingly well thought out for something you created in an hours time.  Something about it just screams "play me on the fly" like the game we played a long time ago.

Anyway, I think you have a real winner here...I do hope it isn't a one-shot product!


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## MeepoDM

Oh, and while I'm thinking about it - the links in your signature are incorrect.  There is a '/' missing between files and Microlite20.*


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## greywulf

Thanks, Meepo. I Did think about re-arranging the rules into a single 3x5 card, but that would just be silly.

As to adventures and add-ons - what do folks want? I guess a one-page Quick Critters bestiary would work. Pull a map from James' Random Dungeon Generator and you've got a night's gaming. 

Heck, I might even continue and work Microlite20 into my (on hold) WikidDungeons project........

Any other thoughts?


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## greywulf

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> Oh, and while I'm thinking about it - the links in your signature are incorrect.  There is a '/' missing between files and Microlite20.*




Gaah! Well spotted. Fixed


----------



## MeepoDM

Well, I plan on having a few playtest battles myself tonight.  I'll try a few at higher levels as well, just to see how it goes.

A single page (or two) Monster Guide would be very cool product.  I'm visualizing something akin to the Monster selection in the OD&D books or the 1st ed. DMG, basically a big table of vital stats with a sentence or two description afterwards.  

Modules could be a single page tops, map(s) on the backside.  Something to be played in a single evening.  A brief description paragraph detailing the hows and whys of the adventure.  Minimal references to statblocks to keep it short with 1-2 sentence descriptions for each room in the dungeon/area.

Did I mention that I really dig this system yet?   Of course, I've always been a big fan of the "less is more" ideology.  And with a 2 page rulebook...a single printed front/back rulebook...well, you can't get much less than that without just making up a game on the spot.

Edit: Oh yes, and spells - gotta have the spells so you dont have to lug around the PHB!  Maybe two pages (one for Arcane, one for Divine) and only include "the essentials".  Since everything is pretty much "in your head", a single line description of the spell would work out well.


----------



## bytor4232

What I would like is a more detailed description on skills.  I'm still shakey on some of the standard skills, mostly the Charisma based ones.  I guess that would be a judgement call on the part of the DM I suppose.


----------



## greywulf

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> What I would like is a more detailed description on skills.  I'm still shakey on some of the standard skills, mostly the Charisma based ones.  I guess that would be a judgement call on the part of the DM I suppose.




Yes, 100% judgement call - I'm a firm believer that There Is More Than One Way To Do It (TIMTOWTDI), though a little guideline or two wouldn't hurt, I guess.

Here are the skills from the d20 SRD and their Microlite20 equivalents:

The four skills in Microlite20 are Physical (phys), Subterfuge (sub), Knowledge (know) and Communication (com), so..........

Appraise - com+MIND
Balance - phys+DEX
Bluff - com+MIND
Climb - phys+DEX or STR, whichever is highest
Concentration - doesn't apply. GM's fiat applies
Craft - it's an out of game thing. No one /ever/ crafts things in-game, so it's a redundant skill. Alternatively, know+DEX
Decipher Script - know+MIND or com+MIND
Diplomacy - com+MIND
Disable Device - sub+MIND or sub+DEX
Disguise - sub+MIND
Escape Artist - sub+DEX or sub+STR, depending on what you're escaping out of
Forgery	- com+DEX
Gather Information - com+MIND
Handle Animal - com+MIND or com+STR if the animal is bigger than you 
Heal - know+MIND
Hide - sub+DEX
Intimidate - could be phys+STR, or sub+MIND or com+STR. You choose
Jump - phys+STR (long jump) or phys+DEX (high jump)
Knowledge - know+MIND
Listen - sub+MIND
Move Silently - sub+DEX
Open Lock - sub+DEX
Perform - com+MIND, though it could be DEX if you're juggling, or STR if you're a weightlifter
Profession - com+MIND, usually
Ride - com+DEX
Search - sub+MIND
Sense Motive - com+MIND
Sleight of Hand - sub+DEX
Speak Language - doesn't apply. You either know the language or you don't. Alternatively, com+MIND to understand subtle nuances, I guess
Spellcraft - MIND only
Spot - sub+MIND
Survival - phys+STR to suyrvive, or sub+DEX or STR to hunt stuff. 
Swim - phys+STR
Tumble - phys+DEX
Use Magic Device - you can either use it, or you can't. GM fiat. Alternatively, MIND only
Use Rope - no, never ever. Use Rope is a DEAD SKILL. This skill is dead. It has passed the mortal coil (of rope). Use phys+DEX if you must, but don't say I didn't warn you.

Hope that helps. I'm sure there'll be some combinations up there you'd do differently. That's cool too.

What we did was just wing it, and decide skill rolls on the fly. That's how it's intended, anyhow. For example: A rogue knocks out a guard using sub+STR, and then convinces the chambermaid to let him pass with a sneaky bribe (com+DEX for it to change hands unseen). He makes it into the cellar disguised as a cook (sub+MIND), and the game continues. I'm sure you get the idea.


----------



## kroh

> What we did was just wing it, and decide skill rolls on the fly. That's how it's intended, anyhow. For example: A rogue knocks out a guard using sub+STR, and then convinces the chambermaid to let him pass with a sneaky bribe (com+DEX for it to change hands unseen). He makes it into the cellar disguised as a cook (sub+MIND), and the game continues. I'm sure you get the idea.




How DARE you boil things down into an easy format that allows people to actually have fun!?!

That's it...I'm tellin.


----------



## greywulf

kroh said:
			
		

> How DARE you boil things down into an easy format that allows people to actually have fun!?!
> 
> That's it...I'm tellin.





Pleae don't! I promise to fix it with version 2. I'll have prestige classes 'n' feats 'n' swift AND immediate actions and everything. 

Just....don't....tell....them....it's......fun.........


----------



## bytor4232

Ourstanding Greywulf.  Now if you can create a giant table of monster stats corresponding with the SRD monsters, then I wouldn't have to think as a DM at all!

I'm going to be playtesting the system over at DNDOG in the OpenRoleplaying forum.  The thread is named Microlite20, which should be public for anyone who wants to watch the game.  I typically only post every other day, to every third  or fourth day, but I never leave my games completely dead.  I'll keep this thread updated to my research.


----------



## kroh

Used this system last night for a little Halloweenie Fright and Screamy!  It was very fun and we started playing right away (we all made up characters that day before the game). One of the best DND sessions I have ever played ( I didn't have to go digging in a rule book for thirty pages to find a rule or looking around the corner to find a lawyer for said rules).  Characters were generated in no time flat.  

STUPENDOUS!

Regards,
Walt

P.S. If word of this gets out you might want to hire protection as I am sure some one will try and take you out!


----------



## Darrell

Ran a game as a one-shot last night using these rules, and now my group wants to use them again next week.  Everything runs so quickly using Microlite20 that we actually have time to concentrate on the game, rather than the rules.  Bravo!

BTW, I second (or third, fourth, or whatever) the call for a Microlite20 monster list, as well as a simplified spell list and a character sheet.

Great work!

Regards,
Darrell King


----------



## kroh

But won't that throw the rules way over two pages!?!

Regards,
Walt


----------



## Wik

Here are my problems with the rules:

1)  I think rogues should have an extra skill of their choice, to make them "equal" to other classes.  So, they'd get subterfuge and Mind if they wanted it, ot subterfuge and physical.  I think that'd be fair.

2)  Spellcasting as you have it is, um, BRUTAL.  Why not just have it set up so that characters have a "max spells per encounter" or something?  As it stands.... I'm not a fan.

...and that's it.  Not too many problems with your simplified rules, actually.  I don't think I'd use them (I'm a fan of the skill rules in D&D), but I really do like 'em.


----------



## bytor4232

kroh said:
			
		

> But won't that throw the rules way over two pages!?!
> 
> Regards,
> Walt




Call them Suppliments!  Base them off the SRD only initially.  Once thats covered then, who knows.

Here is the initial suppliments I would LOVE to see:

1. Skills  
- Creator already covered this FYI, very very well
2. Monsters
3. Spells

And anything else located in the SRD.  If possible, make each suppliment less than five pages.


----------



## bytor4232

If Greywulf has no objections, we can all work together to convert all the monsters in the SRD to stat lines.

Here are my contributions so far:

Bugbear HD3, hp 16, AC 17, +5 Morningstar 1d8+2, +6 physical
Hobgoblin, HD1, hp 5, AC 15, +1 Longsword 1d8+1, +4 subterfuge

I'll post more later.  I will keep a Master List in compact PDF and text files.  We can come up with a better distribution system later, untill then, look at my signature for easy links.


----------



## MeepoDM

I was of the opinion in my first playtest that the Rogue was a tad on the weak side as well.  So I ruled that he _did_ get a Sneak Attack, and that the damage bonus was simply his Subterfuge rank.  I thought it worked well and gave him a nice little boost.


----------



## Wik

You know, thinking about it....

Here's how I'd do the classes.

***WARRIOR***

As written, although I'd factor in a damage bonus similar to power attack into his stats.  Or, keeping with feats, you could set up multiple "fighter options".  

Option #1 - Damage
Every odd level, the fighter's damage increases by 1.  (the fighter would be improving his attack with weapon focus, anyways, so this is okay...)

Option #2 - Attack
Every odd level, the fighter's attack bonus increased by 1.

Option #3 - Defense
Every odd level, the fighter's AC bonus improves by +1.  

(note - these aren't hard and solid, or anything... just ideas)

***ROGUE***

The rogue receives an additional skill group of his choice (either Mind, Physical, or Communication).

If the rogue makes a sneak attack (an attack against a target that is already engaged in melee combat or is unaware of the rogue's presence) against a target, he can add his subterfuge rating to the damage.

If a rogue makes a saving throw to avoid damage, than if he succeeds, he takes no damage, instead of half damage.

***WIZARD***

A wizard can cast a number of spells per encounter equal to his MIND rating.  Note that level isn't a factor - a wizard with a MIND of 5 can cast 5 first level spells, 5 2nd level spells, two 1st level spells and 3 2nd level spels - whatever.  

As an option, a wizard can only cast two spells per encounter that are of her highest spell level - thus, a 1st level wizard can only cast 2 first level spells each encounter.

***CLERIC***
Same spellcasting rules as for Wizard, including the Mind prerequisite (thus, clerics can cast fewer spells per encounter).  This will even up the spellcasting variability (wizards are better casters than clerics, I'd say).  To even up the "clerics can fully heal the group in between encounters because there's no limit to spells per day", I'd suggest some sort of heal limit... or I'd just throw in reserve points (from UA) and get rid of heal spells altogether.  Plus, it's simpler!


----------



## Pbartender

"If the total bonus is +6, a second attack can be made at +1. If the total bonus is +11,
three attacks can be made at +11, +6 and +1."

Consider a simple change to something like...

"Character's may take additional attacks, but each extra attacks suffers a cumulative -5 penalty to its attack roll.  For example, if your total attack bonus is +6, you may take a second attack at +1, a third attack at -4, etc..."

I like the idea of allowing lower level characters to use the extra attacks, but it might give too much leeway for endless wild swings.  Would this rule be a practical option?


----------



## Wik

Pbartender said:
			
		

> "If the total bonus is +6, a second attack can be made at +1. If the total bonus is +11,
> three attacks can be made at +11, +6 and +1."
> 
> Consider a simple change to something like...
> 
> "Character's may take additional attacks, but each extra attacks suffers a cumulative -5 penalty to its attack roll.  For example, if your total attack bonus is +6, you may take a second attack at +1, a third attack at -4, etc..."
> 
> I like the idea of allowing lower level characters to use the extra attacks, but it might give too much leeway for endless wild swings.  Would this rule be a practical option?




It's a great rule, but you have to put a penalty n it for players using the option, or else every first level character will make four attacks - because there's no penalty for trying.


----------



## greywulf

Yipe! I go and sit down and watch TV for two whole minutes and look what happens   



			
				bytor4232 said:
			
		

> Ourstanding Greywulf.  Now if you can create a giant table of monster stats corresponding with the SRD monsters, then I wouldn't have to think as a DM at all!




Y'know, I started work on an M20 Monster Manual (M20MM?) earlier today, then decided There Has TO Be An Easier Way. I remember seeing the Monsters from the SRD as an excel spreadsheet someplace. I'm sure I could take that, remove the non-M20 stuff, add in skills and kick it out as a 5 page PDF. Shouldn't be too hard, eh? Same for spells too, thinking about it.

Meantime, if you want to keep adding your own critters, then please go ahead. It might take me a day or two to sort out the formatting and stuff.

I'd be tempted to just include the top 30-ish critters to keep the zen-like simplicity going, but that's just personal taste.



			
				bytor4232 said:
			
		

> I'm going to be playtesting the system over at DNDOG in the OpenRoleplaying forum.  The thread is named Microlite20, which should be public for anyone who wants to watch the game.  I typically only post every other day, to every third  or fourth day, but I never leave my games completely dead.  I'll keep this thread updated to my research.




Wow! I'll keep a close eye on proceedings (silently, of course) to see how things are going. Thanks.


----------



## MeepoDM

greywulf said:
			
		

> I'd be tempted to just include the top 30-ish critters to keep the zen-like simplicity going, but that's just personal taste.




I think this is an excellent idea.  The MM should not be larger than the rulebook, after all!


----------



## Pbartender

Wik said:
			
		

> It's a great rule, but you have to put a penalty n it for players using the option, or else every first level character will make four attacks - because there's no penalty for trying.




Well...  there is a penalty...   Cumulative -5s to hit.

A good strong 1st level fighter would have +5 to hit.  Four attacks in one round would come as +5/+0/-5/-10.  He's going to have a real hard time hitting anything with goes last two attacks.

Thinking it over, I think the main problem would come from automatic hits on a 20.

Technically, with my rule a player coudl essentially "Take 20" on an attack roll.  Once you get past -20 it doesn't matter...  you just keep attacking until you hit a natural 20 and critical.

Never mind, then.


----------



## greywulf

More feedback  Yum! Thanks, Wik 



			
				Wik said:
			
		

> 1)  I think rogues should have an extra skill of their choice, to make them "equal" to other classes.  So, they'd get subterfuge and Mind if they wanted it, ot subterfuge and physical.  I think that'd be fair.




Take a re-read of the rules Wik - Rogues get Subterfuge as their +3 skill; which stat bonus gets added to it depends on the situation at the time. I left it at just that for Rogues because Subterfuge covers a massive in-game skill area from hiding, moving silently, opening and disarming locks and all manner of thiefly pursuits. 

For folks that think Rogues are short changed, I suggest trying them out in-game. If you still feel they need an extra oomph, give them +1 initiative (to reflect their quick-thinking and supicious nature), or add in some form of sneak attack - though we handle sneak-up-and-knock-someone out as a simple sub+STR roll. Whatever works for you, though.



			
				Wik said:
			
		

> 2)  Spellcasting as you have it is, um, BRUTAL.  Why not just have it set up so that characters have a "max spells per encounter" or something?  As it stands.... I'm not a fan.




Brutal. I like that 

As I've said earlier in this thread, spellcasting as it stands works surprisingly well in-game. As it's Hit Point driven, the Mages and Clerics tend to be very selective with their spellcasting so when it's used, it is Very Effective. Kinda like giving them the keys to the candy store, but they can only eat three sweets. Yes, your typical 1st level 13HP Mage could cast any 1st or 2nd level SRD spell, but it's unlikely he'll be happy going below 6HP, especially as this can't be magically healed. That's only 3 first level spells/day, or 6 zero-level (or a combination thereof).

We found it worked much better than expected, with the Magi and Clerics thinking far more tactially than their "real" D&D counterparts.


----------



## greywulf

Pbartender said:
			
		

> Technically, with my rule a player coudl essentially "Take 20" on an attack roll.  Once you get past -20 it doesn't matter...  you just keep attacking until you hit a natural 20 and critical.




What's a "Take 20"? I don't see no rule for that in Microlite20?


----------



## greywulf

Pbartender said:
			
		

> "If the total bonus is +6, a second attack can be made at +1. If the total bonus is +11,
> three attacks can be made at +11, +6 and +1."
> 
> Consider a simple change to something like...
> 
> "Character's may take additional attacks, but each extra attacks suffers a cumulative -5 penalty to its attack roll.  For example, if your total attack bonus is +6, you may take a second attack at +1, a third attack at -4, etc..."
> 
> I like the idea of allowing lower level characters to use the extra attacks, but it might give too much leeway for endless wild swings.  Would this rule be a practical option?




I agree the existing working is kinda kludgy. Maybe taking your wording but adding the caveat that all multiple attacks must still be at least +1 to be allowed, so +6/+1 is ok, but +6/+1/-4 isn't. That sets the limit to number of attacks without being too rules heavy.

"Character's may take additional attacks, but each extra attacks suffers a cumulative -5 penalty to its attack roll. All multiple attacks must still be at least +1 to be allowed. For example +6/+1 is ok, but +6/+1/-4 isn't."

Hmmmmmmmmm.......... that's still a bit unwieldy. Can anyone suggest a better turn of phrase?


----------



## Wik

Hunh.  I just can't see it running well in my games, but, like you said, it just might run better in actual play.

I think you need a simplified spell list made up.  Really, you have an awesome idea here that should be developed.  Spells = HP loss is a system I've never been happy with (and I've used it before, in, say Shadowrun), and I think a more Vancian model would fit D&D better. Since you say one of your goals is interchangability with D&D, I thought keeping as close to the D&D baseline as possible would be important.

One thing I forgot to mention was Spot and Listen checks - are these Subterfuge skills, or what?  I kind of like the idea of making them "everyone" skills, as is done in Iron Heroes.  It could be cool for everyone to have a perception skill, or something.  I don't know about you, but in my games, "Roll for Spot" is the most common thing I say, and if you take a class that offers spot as a skill, you max it out.  It might be nice for everyone to be on roughly the same footing in regards to that.

One thing about this minimized game that I feel is missing would be character generation.  It just doesn't feel like a game, to me.  Were it me, I'd add a "feats" or "traits" system, where players pick one feat that advances with their characters as they progress.  I guess it sort of defeats the purpose of your rules, but if I had bought this product from you, I'd be adding such a system to suit my own play needs.


----------



## greywulf

kroh said:
			
		

> Used this system last night for a little Halloweenie Fright and Screamy!  It was very fun and we started playing right away (we all made up characters that day before the game). One of the best DND sessions I have ever played ( I didn't have to go digging in a rule book for thirty pages to find a rule or looking around the corner to find a lawyer for said rules).  Characters were generated in no time flat.
> 
> STUPENDOUS!
> 
> Regards,
> Walt
> 
> P.S. If word of this gets out you might want to hire protection as I am sure some one will try and take you out!




Walt, if Microlite20 is ever printed as a hardcover (yeh, right!) I swear I'm going to use that quote on the cover.

Thanks for the praise!


----------



## Wik

It is a pretty nifty little system.  I'd be careful, Wulf, or WotC might just gank your system and use it as the next D&D basic game.


----------



## MeepoDM

greywulf said:
			
		

> I agree the existing working is kinda kludgy. Maybe taking your wording but adding the caveat that all multiple attacks must still be at least +1 to be allowed, so +6/+1 is ok, but +6/+1/-4 isn't. That sets the limit to number of attacks without being too rules heavy.
> 
> "Character's may take additional attacks, but each extra attacks suffers a cumulative -5 penalty to its attack roll. All multiple attacks must still be at least +1 to be allowed. For example +6/+1 is ok, but +6/+1/-4 isn't."
> 
> Hmmmmmmmmm.......... that's still a bit unwieldy. Can anyone suggest a better turn of phrase?




You're kinder than I - I'd just rule that PC's get one attack per round, period.  Now that's old school, baby!


----------



## Wik

Regarding multiple attacks:  just do what the d6 games do.  For every action beyond the first, a penalty is added to ALL actions made during that round.

For example, in d6, if you were making a single skill check, you might roll 4d6.  If you wanted to make that skill check twice in a round (firing two shots, for example), you'd roll 3d6 for each shot.  Three shots?  2d6 for each roll.  Try to accomplish too much in a round, and nothing succeeded.

I would say you could use this in game, but for each attack you make, there's a -5 placed on EACH skill check.  

I have a +9 attack bonus.  I want to make two swings with my sword?  +4/+4.  Three swings?  -1/-1/-1.  Four swings?  -6/-6/-6/6.  What if I, say, wanted to swing my staff and cast a spell?  +4 for the staff, and a -5 penalty on the d20 roll to make my spell check (or, perhaps better, a bonus for the character's saving throw against my spell?).


----------



## greywulf

Wik said:
			
		

> I think you need a simplified spell list made up.




I agree, though I suspect that agreeing _which_ spell should be in the list would differ from group to group, or even player to player. One for y'all to decide yourselves folks. I'm backing away from that carefully 



			
				Wik said:
			
		

> Really, you have an awesome idea here that should be developed.  Spells = HP loss is a system I've never been happy with (and I've used it before, in, say Shadowrun), and I think a more Vancian model would fit D&D better. Since you say one of your goals is interchangability with D&D, I thought keeping as close to the D&D baseline as possible would be important.




For some folks, I'm sure you're right. Run with Microlite20 in whichever way you want. For me though, "working like D&D" is less important than "being able to use all the cool D&D stuff". I prefer mostly compatible to mostly interoperable. I went with a _Will and the Word_ route for spellcasting (do anything limited by your ability (level) and mortal frame (HP) rather) than the Vancian system because it makes for a faster game, which is the overall objective. No tedious spell memorisation in the morning, no working out which spells are needed in advance, and no spellbooks. Simple, fast, and still able to use D&D spells. That was the idea, anyhow.



			
				Wik said:
			
		

> One thing I forgot to mention was Spot and Listen checks - are these Subterfuge skills, or what?  I kind of like the idea of making them "everyone" skills, as is done in Iron Heroes.  It could be cool for everyone to have a perception skill, or something.  I don't know about you, but in my games, "Roll for Spot" is the most common thing I say, and if you take a class that offers spot as a skill, you max it out.  It might be nice for everyone to be on roughly the same footing in regards to that.




Listen and Spot both equate to Subterfuge+MIND, though I suspect in-game most GMs would just call for a Listen or Spot check, and the players will learn after a few minute that it's sub+MIND. Told you Rogues were king when it comes to Subterfuge 



			
				Wik said:
			
		

> One thing about this minimized game that I feel is missing would be character generation.  It just doesn't feel like a game, to me.  Were it me, I'd add a "feats" or "traits" system, where players pick one feat that advances with their characters as they progress.  I guess it sort of defeats the purpose of your rules, but if I had bought this product from you, I'd be adding such a system to suit my own play needs.




Cool. There's no need to buy it. It's free  Add what you want, deduct what you want (not that there's _much_ to deduct). If it forms the basis of your own mini system too, that's great too.


----------



## Pbartender

greywulf said:
			
		

> What's a "Take 20"? I don't see no rule for that in Microlite20?




_Essentially_ Take 20...  meaning a player could simply roll for 20 (or more) attacks in a single round, and he's bound to get at least one natural 20.



			
				Wik said:
			
		

> I would say you could use this in game, but for each attack you make, there's a -5 placed on EACH skill check.
> 
> I have a +9 attack bonus. I want to make two swings with my sword? +4/+4. Three swings? -1/-1/-1. Four swings? -6/-6/-6/6. What if I, say, wanted to swing my staff and cast a spell? +4 for the staff, and a -5 penalty on the d20 roll to make my spell check (or, perhaps better, a bonus for the character's saving throw against my spell?).




That's not half-bad idea...


----------



## greywulf

ok, here's the question. I'll put together an M20MM with 30 critters (no more, no less ). What I want to know it this:

Which critters do you want to see?

From Microlite20 itself and bytor4232's sterling work, so far we have:

Goblin, HD1, hp 5, AC 12, +1 Morningstar d6, +4 subterfuge
Hobgoblin, HD1, hp 5, AC 15, +1 Longsword 1d8+1, +4 subterfuge
Zombie HD1, hp 7, AC 10, +2 slam d6+1
Orc HD2, hp 10, AC 13, +4 Axe d8+2, +5 physical
Skeleton Warrior HD2, hp 14, AC 12, +2 Longsword d8
Bugbear HD3, hp 16, AC 17, +5 Morningstar 1d8+2, +6 physical
Ogre HD5, hp 25, AC 13, +8 Club d6+3, +8 physical
Dragon, Small HD10, hp70, AC 17, +15 bite d8+5 or +10 Fire Breath d20, +13 physical

That's 8 out of the thirty. Note that these don't relate in any way to the "official" D&D stats - I just made'em up off the top of my head in true Microlite20 style.

I'm guessing for Monster Manual though, you'll want something that's *very* close to the D&D norm.

But which critters would you call iconic? For Microlite20, we'll want creature that a easy to run too, hence my simplified dragon above.

There's your challenge - 30 monsters. Pick them, and I'll put together a Monster Manual based on your suggestions.

Thanks!

Oh, and I'm going to put up a website for Microlite20 soon. You'll all get full credits for your participation up there 

UPDATE: The site is up is full glorious minimalist retro technicolour. Only without the technicolour.


----------



## kroh

HOLY POOP!  I was Quoted on the web site.  I love sound bites!

I love that the site is so "minimalized."  Great job!

Regards, 
Walt

P.S. Added a link to Microlite20 to my web site!


----------



## MeepoDM

Hehe I know what you mean... I'm blushin'!  Guess I'd better get the idea wagon rolling to keep up now!

Perfect webpage for the teeny system with a stellar personality!


----------



## kroh

> the teeny system with a stellar personality




You are Genius...WEll, Genius besides Wulf!


----------



## MeepoDM

Thanks   I should have said BIG personality, catchier!


----------



## MeepoDM

Anyway, you mentioned iconic monsters.  Are you including D&D specific monsters that don't appear in the SRD (like Displacer Beasts, Umber Hulks etc.) or just SRD beasties?  I'm have to admit I don't know what the legalities are with a free fan-made product.


----------



## bytor4232

I found the SRD in MySQL format, so I loaded it into MySQL at home.  Here are a couple of txt files I generated in a few minutes using Perl and DBI:

SRD Monsters
- Only the stat blocks are included.  No description at all.
SRD Spells
- I included the Cleric and Wizard lists at the top of the file.  
- I only selected the bare minimums, and the short description in the query

I made the files as small as possible.  I'd like to trim them a little more, but I'd rather work on "Microlite"-ing them.  

I'll work on picking a few more monsters for the Microlite20 MM.  For now, I hope these txt files help!


----------



## bytor4232

After we get 30 monsters picked, maby then we can work on 30 spells for a Microlite20 Spellbook?  What should the format be?  I would propose just one line per spell, but thats just me


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> UPDATE: The site is up is full glorious minimalist retro technicolour. Only without the technicolour.




I do so love your website!  Retro minimilist websites rule.


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> Which critters do you want to see?




I think we should keep the list in the under-10 CR range.

I can help stat these later, but the ones I think we HAVE to have is:


Animals - use generic stats, i.e. small, medium, large animal.  Gotta have badgers and wolves!
Kobold - It isn't D&D without kobolds.
Monsterous Insect - centipedes, spiders, and scorpions.  Might be able to make generics for these
Darkmantle - Another D&D signature creature
Elemental - Another "generic" creature
Gnoll
Troglodyte
Stirge - I can live without this one, but they are one of my favs.
Snakes
Velociraptor - Also called Deinonychus.  Gotta love Dinos in every adventure!
Wraith
Troll
Basilisk
Wyvern


----------



## greywulf

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> I found the SRD in MySQL format, so I loaded it into MySQL at home.  Here are a couple of txt files I generated in a few minutes using Perl and DBI:




Great minds think alike 

I used the mysql SRD too, picked out a sample handful and ran:

mysql -u root -p srd35 -e "select name, hit_dice, armor_class, attack from monster where name in ('Ankheg','Bugbear','Centaur','Choker','Dire Rat','Gargoyle','Hill Giant','Stone Golem','Griffon','Grimlock','Ogre','Owlbear','Rust Monster','Shadow','Stirge','Troll','Wolf','Wight','Zombie','Red Dragon, Young','Earth Elemental, Large','Gold Dragon, Old','Goblin, 1st-Level Warrior','Hobgoblin, 1st-Level Warrior','Hellhound','Kobold, 1st-Level Warrior','Demilich','Orc, 1st-Level Warrior','Human Warrior Skeleton','Werewolf, Hybrid Form','Human Commoner Zombie') order by name" > m20monsters.txt

I dropped the .txt file into OpenOffice, pretified it a little and removed the chaff, then exported a .pdf.

Here's the resulting first draft of the Microlite20 Monsters Manual

I prefer to stick to SRD monsters only due to legalese. I see you've included a few critters I missed (how could I possibly miss the wyvern? Dang!), but it's a start. One Page. 30 monsters. Not bad.

Let me know what you'd be happy to lose from this draft, and what you'd swap in instead. I tried to include quite a lot of 1HD critters, then at least one each of 2HD - 8HD. I dropped a couple of really powerful dudes (Old Gold Dragon, Demilich) in there just because I could, and it's fun to test out M20 20th level battles 

Let me know what you think.

Cheers, all.


----------



## bytor4232

Wow.  Thats a pretty impressive job there.  Isn't SQL grand?

I like the results alot.  However, we have to squeeze the Wyvern in there somehow.  How bout loosing the Owlbear in liu of the Wyvern?  I love the Owlbear, thou.  Man, tough decisions.

Now we need to decide on spells.  What are the absolute must-have spells?  It would be nice to keep it to 30 wizard and 30 cleric spells.  Plus, how do you format it?


----------



## greywulf

Cool! I'll see what I can do. I might lose the Old Gold Dragon and Demilich and include the Wyvern and 'raptor because I love those.

And spells will be the next project, promise!


----------



## kroh

I love how the Micro-Monster Manual has each entry fitting on one line.  I bet all the guys who make a living writing stat boulders are jealous that you are fitting the entire thing on a pebble...

Regards,
Walt

I nominate you for the Micro-Lite American Government Rulebook next.  If you can do this with D20 just think what you could accomplish with politics!?!


----------



## greywulf

kroh said:
			
		

> I love how the Micro-Monster Manual has each entry fitting on one line.  I bet all the guys who make a living writing stat boulders are jealous that you are fitting the entire thing on a pebble...




Heh. I'm a firm believer in Occam's Razor, me.

Draft Two of the Microlite20 Monster Manual is up , now with added Wyverns, Raptors, Animals, Insects and more!

Ok, so there's just an entry each for Small Animals and Small Insects, but there are Advancement Roolz too for When You Need a Bigger Critter.

Let me know what you think


----------



## bytor4232

Nicely done!  You sir, are a genious.  Now, on to spells   I'll post some suggestions as to "must have" spells in a bit.


----------



## Darrell

Hi, there!

I've been working on a spell list for Microlite20 since yesterday, and here it is.

2 pages, one for arcane spells and one for divine spells.  I used 7 arcane spells and 6 divine spells per level, and tried to limit things to spells I thought would be highly manageable on the fly.  

Let me know what y'all think.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## Darrell

Oh, and, uh...

Here's an adapted equipment list, too.  Two pages again.  My attachments are the same size as the rules page itself.  Oh, well...

Again, let me know what you think.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## Darrell

...and a Character Sheet.

Regards, 
Darrell


----------



## Nadaka

Wow, your character sheet is almost as large as the rules...


----------



## bytor4232

Dang.  You guys realize we now have enough pdfs to run an entire game without any books from WOTC.  

It just amazes me that everything here is free.  Great job everyone.


----------



## greywulf

I've been and gone and made Microlite20 both smaller, and bigger, all at the same time. Let me explain.

Yesterday I was looking at Microlite20 and realize that I'm wasting a _whole one-and-a-half pages_! Holy Carp! I've duplicated the Monster rules in both the core and Monster pdfs, and there's the d20 license repeated in both too. I can fix that in one fell sweep by putting the Monsters *in* the core rules! Wow!

It's done, and I've a page-and-a-half to play with.

So I add in the spell lists.

Yes folks, _spell lists are in_! You heard it here first. I've picked out what I reckon to be the most useful and iconic spells from the arcane and divine spell lists from levels 0-3, and dropped them into the pdf.

I've also juggled the layout around so _all the rules_ (unless you're a magic-user) are on just one page, so it makes a handy-dandy single-sheet handout for your players covering character generation, combat and level advancement. Print this out back-to-back and you'll have all that, magic rules and the cleric spell list on a single sheet of paper. On the second sheet will be the Mage spell list, plus Monsters. How cool is that?

So technically it's still just two pages (no one prints out the d20 license, right?), but with loads of extra goodness thrown in.

The core rules fit on one page, so it's smaller. But there's Spells and Monsters too, so it's bigger. See?

I need to prettificate the layout a lot, but I'm going to do that last of all. 

Download the latest version here . Enjoy.

On a (slightly) unrelated note, we were playtesting high-level combat with Microlite20 last night, and came to the conclusion that Hit Points = STR stat+Level is just too stingy. We've changed it to:

Hit Points = STR stat + 1d6/Level

What think you? 

And Darrell - what can I say? Wow! I'll take a look at what you've done and see if I can incorporate equipment, your sheet and any spells I've missed into the next version. Thanks!


----------



## greywulf

Darrell: hot darn. Your spell list is better than mine  If you can add in durations to the .pdf, I'll pull mine and add yours instead. 

I could include  GM stuff (rules for falling damage, travel distance, poison and a random dungeon generator, maybe) too.

I've uploaded your equipment list to http://home.greywulf.net/m20 and I'll put the character sheet too if you can make the change so Hit Points = STR stat + 1d6/Level. Blame me for that change 

Thanks!


----------



## greywulf

greywulf said:
			
		

> I've uploaded your equipment list to http://home.greywulf.net/m20 and I'll put the character sheet too if you can make the change so Hit Points = STR stat + 1d6/Level. Blame me for that change




I'm quoting myself now. Is this wrong, or just a sign of insanity? 

I've had an email from one of my players who's suggested an alternative to Hit Points.

How about Hit Points = STR stat + half their the Level number, rounded down.

So at level one, you get +0 HP. Al level 2, you get +1. Third, another +1, Fourth +2 etc.

Interesting idea. It scales well, and makes lower levels fragile (as they should be) and higher level dudes total tanks (ditto). By 20th level, it put Hit Points on a par with their D&D counterparts too, which is nice.

Thoughts?

EDITED: +level number was waaaaaay to high. Hald their level number is better.

It works out like this, asuming STR 12 in M20 and CON 12 in D&D with a d6 Hit Die.

	M20 (STR 12)	D&D (CON 12)
1	12	9
2	13	11
3	14	18
4	16	21
5	18	27
6	21	31
7	24	36
8	28	41
9	32	47
10	37	52
11	42	59
12	48	66
13	54	68
14	61	70
15	68	76
16	76	79
17	84	86
18	93	92
19	102	96
20	112	103


Hmmmmm. Fiddly. Maybe just STR Stat + d6/level is easier after all.


----------



## Darrell

Hello--

I'll work on adding durations to the spell list this evening.  Thing is, I'd meant to go in and add them before I posted, but it slipped my mind.  I guess I was too anxious to see what you all thought about 'em.    

As far as hit points go, I like the +1d6/level better than that scalable thing, so that's what I'm doing to the character sheet.      Speaking of which, see below for the revised version.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## Darrell

greywulf said:
			
		

> I could include  GM stuff (rules for falling damage, travel distance, poison and a random dungeon generator, maybe) too.




Hmmmmmm.....

A Microlite20 'DM's Guide' kinda thing might not be a bad idea.  You could yank monsters from the regular rule page, and put 'em on the back of a GM's page.  Then you'd have a one-pager for players, and another for the GM.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## MeepoDM

greywulf said:
			
		

> Hit Points = STR stat + 1d6/Level
> 
> What think you?




Won't this radically change the built in balance of spellcasters using HP's to power their spells?


----------



## Nadaka

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> Won't this radically change the built in balance of spellcasters using HP's to power their spells?




not if you increase the hp it takes to cast higher level spells. But then again, that adds complexity to a simple rule system.


----------



## MeepoDM

Yes, I agree a change would have to be made with the new HP system installed.  

Lets take a 5th level Wizard with an average STR of 12 and 18 HP's rolled for a total of 30 total HP's.  Even using the conservative assumption of only using (just over) half of your HP's to power your spells, that is still 4 Fireballs/Lightning Bolts per day.  A huge increase in spell ability compared to D&D, especially when you don't have to memorize spells!  And it gets even uglier as you crawl upwards.

Ideas?


----------



## greywulf

Nadaka said:
			
		

> not if you increase the hp it takes to cast higher level spells. But then again, that adds complexity to a simple rule system.




True. I'll have to think more about that. The balance previously was just about right. Adding in more Hit Points turns spell-casters into taknukes! I'll leave is as STP+1d6/level for now though.

Talking of which, another version is ready for download with all the rules on a single page (generation, skills, hazards, magic and advancement) and just one other page for Monsters. That's the whole system (less spells) on two sides of A4. There was some blank space too, so I put some guff in about name, description, height and age for now until someone can think of something better to replace it 

I've included Darrell's excellent equipment list, character sheet and spell list on http://home.greywulf.net/m20 too. I'll update the Spell List pdf when Darrell's created the new one.

Meantime, if anyone has a suggestion for Spell Point costs, I'm all ears.

We could go for odd number costs, maybe. That shouldn't be too hard to remember. It's double level and add one.

0 = 1
1 = 3
2 = 5
3 = 7
4 = 9
5 = 11
6 = 13
7 = 15
8 = 17
9 = 19

That means Meepo's 5th level Mage with 30HP above could loose off just 2 Fireballs/day before he's close to half Hit Points. Better. 

Hmmmmmmmmmm.....again.


----------



## Darrell

greywulf said:
			
		

> I've included Darrell's excellent equipment list, character sheet and spell list on http://home.greywulf.net/m20 too. I'll update the Spell List pdf when Darrell's created the new one.




...and here it is.

I had to take out a few arcane spells to get it all to fit on one page after I added the durations.  (Any spell without a listed duration, by the way, is "instantaneous.") I took out one spell from each level, making it 6 spells per spell level, just like the divine spells.  I also removed _wish _ and _miracle_, since I started thinking they were a bit over-powered.

Well, see what you think about 'em now.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## greywulf

Darrell said:
			
		

> ...and here it is.




Excellent work Darrell, thanks 

Duely uploaded to http://home.greywulf.net/m20

The more I think about having Spells cost Hit Points = double spell level + 1, the more I like it. We'll be playtesting with that rule tomorrow. I'll let you know how it goes.

All the best,


----------



## Darrell

Well....

I got kind of bored last night, and sat down and made an expanded Monster List.

I added in more Animals (including stat entries for all the animals available for purchase in the Equipment List pdf, and putting in entries for bears, snakes, and other hazards), Dinosaurs, Dire Animals, Dragons, and Insects (which I re-labeled 'Vermin,' a la the SRD), along with a few more of my favorite critters. I also modified the listing for the Nymph (losing the 'blinding beauty' ability), and used the Vampire Spawn SRD entry as the base for the Vampire, because I think the SRD vampire is too strong.  It's two pages, pretty much like all of my other pdfs have been.

Let me know what you think.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## Ogrork the Mighty

I really like the simplicity of this system, but aren't spellcasters getting completely hosed? If casting spells costs 1+spell level hp and your total hp = Str + level, that pretty much restricts your ability to cast high level spells. Sure you can cast a lot of low-level spells, but you'll be resting constantly if you try to cast higher-level spells.


----------



## Darrell

Ogrork the Mighty said:
			
		

> I really like the simplicity of this system, but aren't spellcasters getting completely hosed? If casting spells costs 1+spell level hp and your total hp = Str + level, that pretty much restricts your ability to cast high level spells. Sure you can cast a lot of low-level spells, but you'll be resting constantly if you try to cast higher-level spells.




Actually, hp = STR + 1d6/level now.  

Assuming a 13th-level mage (minimum level to cast 7th-level spells) of average STR (10) with median hit points per level (say, an average of 3 hp/level x 13 + a total of 39 hp):

39 + 10 = 49 hp total

The mage would be able to cast 5 7th-level spells, and still have a 9 hp reserve to keep himself from passing out or whatever.  In a similar vein, he'd be able to cast 9 4th-level or  11 3rd-level spells, still keeping reserve hp; and that's not figuring in a spell-level mix-and-match of high and low-level spells to maximize the effect.  That seems quite fair, as far as I'm concerned...though I'll grant you, I tend to favor lower-magic campaigns.

I'd hardly consider that being 'hosed,' since the other classes are similarly 'de-powered' in Microlite20.  It's that level of simplicity that's leading my group to move toward using it instead of D&D for our weekly games.  We tried it last week, and have had two 'last-minute' games since then (and a spur-of-the-moment game is _so_ easy with Microlite20), and are liking it more and more.

The only situations that have come up have regarded Turning Undead (something my players want to do) and wanting to customize a character's skills a bit more.

I'm working on the first situation still, and solved the second by simply giving a character 2 extra skill points at character creation to be assigned as bonuses to skills; either both to one skill (giving a +2 bonus) or to two different skills, getting a +1 to each.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## Nadaka

Turn undead could be "fixed" by adding it as a first level cleric spell.


----------



## Darrell

Nadaka said:
			
		

> Turn undead could be "fixed" by adding it as a first level cleric spell.




I'd thought about that, but it bugs me that only clerics can Turn Undead (it's always bugged me, as far back as OD&D).  I'm thinking about making it a type of ability usable by anyone with faith in the holy symbol used.  That way it's more in line with "classic" vampire movies/stories, where the victim (or, more commonly, her boyfriend/romantic interest) could pick up a cross and drive Dracula away.  I'm just mulling over how I'd like it to work, and how to express it in a way simple enough to be compatible with Microlite20.  Right now, I'm leaning toward linking it to the 'Magic Attack Bonus' in the Microlite20 rules.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## Ogrork the Mighty

Darrell said:
			
		

> Actually, hp = STR + 1d6/level now.




Ahhh, that fixes the problem then.


----------



## greywulf

Darrell said:
			
		

> Right now, I'm leaning toward linking it to the 'Magic Attack Bonus' in the Microlite20 rules.




I'd be inclined to go with a variation on this theme: Have a 1st level "Turn Undead" spell for Clerics where you roll Magic Attack bonus to turn, DC = critter's current Hit Points. That makes for cool tactical options - do we hit first to weaken it and turn later, or turn first? It's kinda cool to be able to fight down Huge Undead then explode him with a good Turn check 

I'd also allow certain items of Religious Significance let anyone with the faith Turn Undead - in effect, they'll have their own internal HP that can be used to fuel the Turn Undead spell. The internal HP dictates how many times per day it can be used. The Magical Attack bonus of the wielder is used at all times. 

Clerics would prize these very highly as they also give them free use of Turn Undead per day too, of course.

Example: Sun Shield of Pelor: able to cast Turn Undead, 6 HP (allowing use of Turn Undead 3/day), +2 AC, usable by Clerics of Pelor without Proficiency. Grants a +2 to Magic Attack bonus for Turn checks.

As to the Monsters, you've done it again, Darrell  I've put this up on http://home.greywulf.net/m20 as a supplement. I'm inclined to keep the critters in the core rules too, at least for now, just so it's "complete" in two pages. I reserve the right to change my mind, of course!

We playtested having spells cost Hit Points = double spell level + 1 (0=1,1=3,2=5,7,9,etc) last night and it works very well, especially at higher levels of play. Our 1st level Mage with 15 Hit Points let loose 3 Magic Missiles against the Kobolds in the Burning Plague (our usual playtest 1st level 'venture) before pulling back to cower behind the Fighter, and still had 6 Hit Points to spare. Amazingly, he survived too 

On the higher level test (15th level characters vs. a red dragon and his troll minions), the Mage with about 72 Hit Points used 3 8th level Incendiary Clouds (total HP cost 51) to decimate the trolls. Nasty. Of course, that only left him with 21 HP to face the young Red. He died pretty quickly afterwards - he should have used just one Incendiary Clouds and kept the rest in reserve for the Big Fight.

That's what I like about Microlite20 though - it gives choices like this back to the player, rather than limiting the tactics based on spell slots.

I'm going to put the Spell Cost to "double spell level + 1" next time I update it.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks!


----------



## MeepoDM

greywulf said:
			
		

> That's what I like about Microlite20 though - it gives choices like this back to the player, rather than limiting the tactics based on spell slots.
> 
> I'm going to put the Spell Cost to "double spell level + 1" next time I update it.
> 
> Let me know what you think.
> 
> Thanks!




Huzzah!  A level 15 Wizard would normally only cast a single 8th level spell, but he also wouldn't be setting himself up for a possible death and a certain need for bed rest.  Choices, choices!  This is the kind of strategy I like to see, not obsessing over which square gives the least amount of probability of giving an AoO!  

Speaking of bed rest, does the 8 hours of sleep _fully_ recover our hero in the situation above?  Well, at least any HP loss from spellcasting, that is.

I wasn't overly fond of the 1d6 HP/level rule, though I think it does work well with the new spellpoint formula, and I do have to admit it was sorely needed for higher level games.  The above Wizard would have only had himself 27-ish HP's otherwise!


----------



## greywulf

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> Speaking of bed rest, does the 8 hours of sleep _fully_ recover our hero in the situation above?  Well, at least any HP loss from spellcasting, that is.




Yep, 8 hours of rest recovers all loss due to spell-casting. One of my players is pushing for getting half of it back if he rests for 4 hours, but I'm holding out on that one for now


----------



## MeepoDM

Hahaha!  Nice move on your part! 

What do you think of having the Fighter's ability of +1/+1 being scalable?  Maybe something as minor as level 1-10 (as it is now) and 11-20 (+2/+2)?  Just to keep him from falling behind the damage scale so rapidly.

Also, how exactly does the Magic attack bonus = MIND bonus + Level rule work?  I understand the concept, but in regular D&D this is usually automatic with the monster having the spell cast on him rolling a Saving Throw.  Is this rule used for any form of attack spell?

Meepo

Re: Your 11/2's blog post footnote (no threadjacking and no political arguements please!).  I agree 100% and many of us (Americans) do as well.  Thanks for not lumping us all into  one group!  Wish us luck tomorrow


----------



## Thanee

Only browsed through this quickly. Nice work, greywulf. 

If I understand correctly, hps are now +1d6 per level not just +1 per level, right? That's better. Even on a quick browsing that part looked really horrible. 

I would probably make it a flat +4 or +6 hit points per level.

And you should make spellcasting cost 1/level (making 0 level free).

At higher levels, a Mage should be able to do a little more than one encounter and then cower. That's not fun.

Being unable to heal the loss will still make things really dangerous, when too many spells are cast.


One question... why only three stats and not four? One for each skill, one for each class.

CHA is missing. 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## greywulf

Hey Meepo & Thanee!



			
				MeepoDM said:
			
		

> What do you think of having the Fighter's ability of +1/+1 being scalable?  Maybe something as minor as level 1-10 (as it is now) and 11-20 (+2/+2)?  Just to keep him from falling behind the damage scale so rapidly.




I thought about giving Fighters something more, but couldn't decide what so left it as it is, figuring that carrying the biggest darn magic sword and heaviest armour would pick up the slack. And if I start adding stuff at different levels before you know it there'll be feats and prestige classes and level dependent benefits and who knows where it will end? 

That said, I could go for +1 attack and +1 damage every five levels for the Fighter. That would work, and give enough of kick for the Fighter types without creating too much of an arms race with the other classes.



			
				MeepoDM said:
			
		

> Also, how exactly does the Magic attack bonus = MIND bonus + Level rule work?  I understand the concept, but in regular D&D this is usually automatic with the monster having the spell cast on him rolling a Saving Throw.  Is this rule used for any form of attack spell?




We use it for most spells that could affect another creature. d20+Magical Attack bonus gives the DC for the poor schmuck to beat. The only exception is range attacks (Rays, etc) or touch spells, which use missile or melee attack bonus, of course.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> One question... why only three stats and not four? One for each skill, one for each class.




I ditched Charisma simply to be awkward  4 stats, 4 skills and 4 classes was too "neat" for me. That, and the more I looked at the skill breakdown the more I saw that CHA wasn't really needed as the typical CHA-based skills could really be covered by MIND or even (in the case of Perform) DEX. And it opened up Charisma as being something to actually role-play, rather than quantify.

That's my excuse, anyway.


----------



## Thanee

Then call it SPIrit. 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## MeepoDM

Perhaps even something like the CLEAVE feat (or another very simple, non-fiddly)  ability) automatically for all Fighters might be an idea?  I do agree, though, that the game should stay as simplistic as possible, that's the appeal, right? 

As for CHA, I could see WIS comin' back before CHA


----------



## greywulf

Cleave. Mmmmmmm.... my favourite flavour of Kobold. Let me think about it 



			
				MeepoDM said:
			
		

> As for CHA, I could see WIS comin' back before CHA




Heh. Maybe we should put it to the vote. 

What should be the Fourth Stat, and why?


----------



## MeepoDM

My vote would be for three stats.  It just works!


----------



## Thanee

It doesn't work. It leaves a huge hole in the continuum.

Really, if you reduce mental to one stat, then you could reduce physical to one stat (BODy) as well. Or give both sides two stats. 

BOD
AGI
MND
SPI

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Darrell

greywulf said:
			
		

> Heh. Maybe we should put it to the vote.
> 
> What should be the Fourth Stat, and why?





To be honest, I've considered putting CHA back in, too.  I tend to run urban campaigns a lot, and my players are very dependent on Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, etc. in regular D&D games.  I've been thinking for a few days now about adding CHA to the abilities and adding a new skill ("Personality," maybe?) to the skill list to more fully delineate this.

MeepoDM: I'm actually more likely to bring back CHA than WIS.  To me, CHA would be related to MIND (being a combined INT and WIS) in the same way DEX is related to STR (a combined STR and CON).

Regards, 
Darrell


----------



## Thanee

PREsence is also a nice name for a fourth stat, if you dislike CHArisma.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## MeepoDM

I only mentioned WIS jokingly, as it was in reference to the 4 classes/4 races/4 stats mentioned above, sorry   I'd prefer a CHA over a WIS myself, but the roots of Clerics lie in Wisdom over Charisma.


----------



## Darrell

Hello, all--

I got bored again this afternoon.  The result?  The Microlite20 Game Master's Guide.

I took the "Other Hazards" paragraph from the latest version of the rules and expanded it a bit--more information about poisons (including listing for all the critters with 'poison' attacks listed in the Monsters List pdf), added in a section on Diseases, and another on Traps (featuring 3 traps of each Encounter Level).  Another two pages.    

Let me know what ya think about this one.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## MeepoDM

Thats actually very cool, Darrell.  I'm horrid at coming up with original trap ideas so this is an absolute treasure chest!


----------



## greywulf

Darrell said:
			
		

> I took the "Other Hazards" paragraph from the latest version of the rules and expanded it a bit--more information about poisons (including listing for all the critters with 'poison' attacks listed in the Monsters List pdf), added in a section on Diseases, and another on Traps (featuring 3 traps of each Encounter Level).  Another two pages.




Very good yet again, but a bit wordy. I reckon you could get this down to just a single page with some editing. Then replace the Monsters from the core rules with this to have the Player's section on one side and the GM's section on the other. Add in your Monsters and spells printed double-sided and you've got the complete system on just 3 sheets of paper.

I'll upload the .rtf of the core rules later today with the changes for spell costs if you want to fiddle with the layout a little 

We could lose the Hazards section from the Player's section (as you've got it covered in here), and replace it with.........what?

Random encounter chart? Random dungeon generator?

Any more ideas?


----------



## Darrell

greywulf said:
			
		

> Very good yet again, but a bit wordy. I reckon you could get this down to just a single page with some editing.




That hasn't been a problem from my POV.      I use one-inch margins and 9-point Verdana font for the basic documents because as I finish these things I'm putting 'em into a heavy clear vinyl folder thingy (used to be a menu from a local restaurant that shut down).  I've got two of 'em...one that I'm putting 'player information' in, and one for 'GM information.' I have eight and six pages (respectively) to play with.  As a result, my 'Basic Rules' document has been revised a bit, and is actually 2 1/2 pages long--and I still haven't finished working on my 'Turn Undead' situation (I've added CHA back in as of yesterday, and put in short racial descriptions and such, as well as adding a chart for ability bonuses instead of the one line in your original document.  I've never posted any of my revised document, because it's just my 'house rules' version, and I wanted all my posts to be based on your original document.), and am also awaiting your future revisions.  In the case of the GM Guide page, some of the wordiness comes because I wanted all the poisons listed from the monsters that had 'poison' attacks listed in the Monster List, and wanted at least three of every EL for traps.



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> I'll upload the .rtf of the core rules later today with the changes for spell costs if you want to fiddle with the layout a little




I'll see what I can do.  I'm actually enjoying this quite a lot.      In case I've never made it clear, I _really_ like your take on the system.  It has the simplicity...and non-miniature-dependent nature...I look for in a game.



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> We could lose the Hazards section from the Player's section (as you've got it covered in here), and replace it with.........what?
> 
> Random encounter chart? Random dungeon generator?
> 
> Any more ideas?




Encounter chart and dungeon generator seem like something that should go on a GM page instead of in the basic rules.

If I do the one-inch margin thing, like I have with all my other pdfs (just to make 'em all look alike    ), you might not need to add anything.  Shortening the document by that one paragraph, it'd probably fit nicely into that front-and-back page using the layout I've been using for the other pdfs.

Speaking of 'other pdfs,' I've done another one, but I'm not really cool with posting it.  It's a mini 'campaign setting' for Microlite20.  (It's actually the one my group and I use to playtest new D&D material before adding it in to our regular Greyhawk game.)  Trouble is, I use a map that I ganked off the web somewhere.  It's rather heavily modified, but the base artwork isn't mine, so I don't want to publicly post the thing.  If anyone is interested in it, e-mail me at rev_sims "at" yahoo "dot" com, and I'll send it to you privately.

It's nothing too special: a small map of a coastal barony with notes on geography, settlements, known dungeon locales, religions, and such.  Again, if anyone's interested, e-mail me.

Well, that's it for now...

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## MeepoDM

E-mail sent!  Thanks Darrell...I'm "in-between settings" at the moment, perhaps this one might scratch my itch?


----------



## MeepoDM

Does anyone have an RPG.Net account?  Someone should spread the love and post Microlite20 in this thread! 

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=295155


----------



## Bretbo

Done.   http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?p=6530051#post6530051

(Note that I included a few other free D20 games out there, got to spread the wealth).


----------



## MeepoDM

Thanks!  I was having some account log-in problems for some reason, but just got that resolved.  I'll go ahead and reply as well.


----------



## greywulf

Excellent, thanks, folks. Spreading the love is always a good thing!

I'll try to find time and sit down over the next few days with my pdfs, Darrell's and any requests y'all post up here and see what I can come up with. Including CHA seems to get the popular vote, so I'll add it in. My players like spell cost = double level +1, so that goes in too.

My goal with this is to create as small and light a system as possible, while at the same time being able to use lots of d20/D&D goodness too. If peeps start taking it in new and unexpected directions as well, that's /very/ cool too.

In just a few days it's turned into being a pretty complete system in it's own right  (mainly thanks to Darrell and everyone else's feedback), and that's a far better response than I'd expected. Thank you, all of you.

If you've ever seen the One Page Fantasy Skirmish rules  (link to pdf), that's the kind of minimalism I'd aspire to. I'm not sure it's possible to do that /and/ be d20-compliant(-ish), but it's kinda fun trying.

I reckon we could easily put out a single page of rules covering character generation, combat and advancement, another 2 pages of Monsters, 2 of spells and a one page "Dungeon Master's Guide" including a random dungeon generator.

Oh wait, we're 99% of the way already 

That'll make a complete d20-compatible system in just 8 pages.

Works for me!


----------



## MeepoDM

8 pages!  My how it has grown.  I hope the original rules - your first document - will always remain its own entity.

I'm still not 100% convinced on this Charisma thing, but its no biggy.  As long as we don't start coming up with rationale for Wisdom and Constitution as well!  Thats a downhill snowball eyeballin' Feats, PrC's, and full skill systems just waiting to happen!


----------



## Darrell

greywulf said:
			
		

> That'll make a complete d20-compatible system in just 8 pages.
> 
> Works for me!





I was just thinking...

Our eight pages covers roughly the same territory (in a trimmed-down manner, I'll grant you) as three 300+ page books...

...and the supplemental material for those books is about 95% table-ready for games played using our eight pages.

Works for me, too!    

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## kroh

Darrell said:
			
		

> I was just thinking...
> 
> Our eight pages covers roughly the same territory (in a trimmed-down manner, I'll grant you) as three 300+ page books...
> 
> ...and the supplemental material for those books is about 95% table-ready for games played using our eight pages.
> 
> Works for me, too!
> 
> Regards,
> Darrell





I bet that will make some people mad (rules writers) when they stop to think what people here did.  You took the rules and made them fit the game and not the other way around.  The thing about rules is that they should be meant to explain and not restrain.  The more rules you add the tighter you restrict something.  When the object of the game is to have fun pretending to act out our favorite genres, the more time we have to look for something in a rule book the less time we are doing what we enjoy.  That is why video games sucked so many of our players out of the industry (including me for a long time).  We all got sick of listening to people bicker about obscure rules about how long it takes a fighter versus a wizard to choke on a chicken bone or wait ungodly amounts of time for my DM to look up this or that rule.  Instead we went for something that had the rules built in.  

With a system this lite you can pretty muc rule or caveat anything on the fly.  Pretty soon the rules are built into the players and Bammo...You start having fun!

Fast and Light... I like the way you're thinking.

Regards,
Walt


----------



## EvilDwarf

I would vote against adding CHA as an extra stat/ability and be disappointed to see another stat included.   I've really been digging what you guys are up to here, as I love dabbling with the system, too.

I ran an entire campaign--one that we all enjoyed--using only three abilities of Fortitude, Reflex, and Will.  If you look at the definitions of these three areas of saving throw found in the DMG on pg. 33, you find that these three "abilities/stats" cover all you need, really:  Fort reflects physical toughness, Reflex reflects physical and sometimes mental agility, and Will reflects inner strength, willpower, mental stablility, and power of the mind.

If you're going quick and dirty, three seems to be the charm.

Keep up the good work, and congrats on a truly inspired concept.


----------



## MeepoDM

EvilDwarf said:
			
		

> I would vote against adding CHA as an extra stat/ability and be disappointed to see another stat included.   I've really been digging what you guys are up to here, as I love dabbling with the system, too.
> 
> I ran an entire campaign--one that we all enjoyed--using only three abilities of Fortitude, Reflex, and Will.  If you look at the definitions of these three areas of saving throw found in the DMG on pg. 33, you find that these three "abilities/stats" cover all you need, really:  Fort reflects physical toughness, Reflex reflects physical and sometimes mental agility, and Will reflects inner strength, willpower, mental stablility, and power of the mind.
> 
> If you're going quick and dirty, three seems to be the charm.
> 
> Keep up the good work, and congrats on a truly inspired concept.




Hehe, Microlite20 brings another out of lurking mode to post (like myself) - welcome aboard!!   

That's basically why I was thinking against CHA as well.  If it were made "official", it would be one of the first things (only?) I'd houserule out of the system, probably.  Plus, Greywulfs response a page back on the subject fits right along with my own gaming style.



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> the more I looked at the skill breakdown the more I saw that CHA wasn't really needed as the typical CHA-based skills could really be covered by MIND or even (in the case of Perform) DEX. And it opened up Charisma as being something to actually role-play, rather than quantify.


----------



## greywulf

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> 8 pages!  My how it has grown.  I hope the original rules - your first document - will always remain its own entity.




I agree, Meepo 

I plan to offer a single-page (or maybe one double-page) downloadable .pdf offering the core system, then Darrell's Monsters, Spells, Equipment and GM Guide as additional downloads. 

Maybe Darrell and I could work on putting together a "complete" 8 page pdf as an optional download of the Whole Darned Thing as well, for the completists who just have to own every supplement  When everyone is happy with the rules, that is.

The vote still seems to be out in the great CHA debate, and I like EvilDwarf's Fort/Ref/Will as stats idea so much I wish I'd thought of it first. 

I'll try to find a space in the core rules for Optional Extras, and put "add CHA as a stat" in there. That should please everyone. I'll put something about Rogue Sneak attack and Fighter getting +1/+1 every five levels in there too.

I ran a quick game for a friend last night by phone (no, really. I heard him roll the dice and everything). He played a Cleric trying to find his lost Holy Symbol which fell down a hole into a Zombie infested ancient catacomb. Don't you just hate it when _that_ happens? The adventure was totally on the fly, so preparation, nothing. He'd missed the last few gamer group sessions, and wanted to know what the other guys were talking about.

He liked the rule that spell-casters can choose spells that cost 1HP less to cast, and pointed out that it simulates Clerical Domains pretty well too, with the Church (or the God) deciding which spells are easier to cast. I hadn't thought about it like that. S'good.

More later, and a new version of the core rules too.

Oh, and Darrell, I've put your excellent GM Guide up at http://home.greywulf.net/m20. Thanks!


----------



## kroh

> He played a Cleric trying to find his lost Holy Symbol which fell down a hole into a Zombie infested ancient catacomb.




That happened to me last night... Only instead of the holy symbol it was my tv remote and instead of zombies it was my dog...

doesn't she look vicious!?!


----------



## greywulf

kroh said:
			
		

> That happened to me last night... Only instead of the holy symbol it was my tv remote and instead of zombies it was my dog...
> 
> doesn't she look vicious!?!




Lol!

At least CR 10, I'd say. Especially with those gorgeous eyes


----------



## Technomancer

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> 8 pages!  My how it has grown.  I hope the original rules - your first document - will always remain its own entity.



Yeah, I remember when this was a light, simple set of rules. But then they had to go tack on rules for this and that and all kinds of supplemental material and now we've got this bloated monstrosity 

Seriously, I'm looking forward to actually trying this out sometime.


----------



## MeepoDM

Yeah, I know, I know!  

I just really dug the idea of a single page rulebook that can be folded up and stuck in a module or dungeon magazine and played with on the fly.  Darrell's stuff is _excellent_, no question about it.  I hope I didn't imply otherwise.  It certainly was needed if one was to ditch the PHB/DMG/MM altogether at the table!  If it is all combined one day, I hope there will be the "complete" version and also the single page starter that Greywulf created for us all of...a few weeks ago?  Is that possible?  Seems like this thing has been around forever...!  

Very cute dog.  He must be part Wight because I feel the energy draining from my knees as I peer into his soulful eyes... I miss my dog! *sigh*

Definitely give it a whirl, Technomancer.  Setup a one-shot game and see how you like it!  I was surprised at how fast it flowed compared to D&D 3.5 and even Original/1st ed. D&D (where my gaming heart will always lie).  No charts, no rules to reference, just 100% interaction!


----------



## MeepoDM

Oh, and I *LOVE* the idea of Fort/Reflex/Will as the name of the stats!!  Might be confusing for those expecting them to be all out Saves, but what a great idea, EvilDwarf!


----------



## eyebeams

EvilDwarf said:
			
		

> I would vote against adding CHA as an extra stat/ability and be disappointed to see another stat included.   I've really been digging what you guys are up to here, as I love dabbling with the system, too.
> 
> I ran an entire campaign--one that we all enjoyed--using only three abilities of Fortitude, Reflex, and Will.  If you look at the definitions of these three areas of saving throw found in the DMG on pg. 33, you find that these three "abilities/stats" cover all you need, really:  Fort reflects physical toughness, Reflex reflects physical and sometimes mental agility, and Will reflects inner strength, willpower, mental stablility, and power of the mind.




My own short system, Quick20 uses saves as ability scores as well, along with a third stat called Might to cover Strength and aspects of BAB. It works quite well, though Quick20 resembles True20 more than it does the SRD.


----------



## bytor4232

kroh said:
			
		

> That happened to me last night... Only instead of the holy symbol it was my tv remote and instead of zombies it was my dog...
> 
> doesn't she look vicious!?!




What a cute puppie!  I bet she's a big sweetie!


----------



## Bretbo

Yeah, cute pup.  To bad about that Brown Pudding gobbling her up though...


----------



## kroh

Bretbo said:
			
		

> Yeah, cute pup.  To bad about that Brown Pudding gobbling her up though...




I laughed so hard when I read that, coffee shot out of my nose!  That was awsome!

Regards, 
Walt


----------



## MeepoDM

greywulf said:
			
		

> He liked the rule that spell-casters can choose spells that cost 1HP less to cast, and pointed out that it simulates Clerical Domains pretty well too, with the Church (or the God) deciding which spells are easier to cast. I hadn't thought about it like that. S'good.




This got me thinking this morning (never a good thing...)

Now that both the total HP and Spell system have changed dramatically, do you think this should be higher?  1HP is generous when the average mage will start out at first level with 15ish HP's, but the higher in level the go, the 1HP isn't much of a savings.  Nice sure, but enough to maintain the "favored spell" system?  Take a level 12 Wizard with average STR(12) and average HD (3.5 HP per level) with a total of 54 hit points, and able to cast level 6 spells.  Is 13 HP vs 12 HP cost enough to maintain this favoritism towards certain spells?  Or is it even important enough to matter?  What do ya'll think?

OT: Greywulf - how about the news on this side of the pond?  I just about did backflips myself


----------



## greywulf

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> This got me thinking this morning (never a good thing...)




I make it a policy never to think during the morning. Ever. 



			
				MeepoDM said:
			
		

> Now that both the total HP and Spell system have changed dramatically, do you think this should be higher?  1HP is generous when the average mage will start out at first level with 15ish HP's, but the higher in level the go, the 1HP isn't much of a savings.  Nice sure, but enough to maintain the "favored spell" system?  Take a level 12 Wizard with average STR(12) and average HD (3.5 HP per level) with a total of 54 hit points, and able to cast level 6 spells.  Is 13 HP vs 12 HP cost enough to maintain this favoritism towards certain spells?  Or is it even important enough to matter?  What do ya'll think?




Good point, well made. How about a saving equal to the spell level, so it's 1HP less for your 1st level spell, 2HP less for your favourite 2nd level spell, etc.

Yeh, that might work........




			
				MeepoDM said:
			
		

> OT: Greywulf - how about the news on this side of the pond?  I just about did backflips myself




OT: I demand nothing less than the BBEG's own head on a plate


----------



## MeepoDM

I should take your advice and not think about things in the morning.  Save them for later...much later!!

That method certainly sounds easy, but I'd hate to think of someone taking (from the example above) something like Disintegrate as their favored spell.  For only 7 HP's a pop, that thing could be brutal!   

It was probably better the way you originally envisioned it.  Sure it might not make a huge difference later in the game, but it is still a nice (if small) bonus.  And very helpful to new spellcasters!

I'm going to shut up now and try to play as written...


----------



## enelson

Great job all! Really liking the minimal system.

Got me thinking about the Spy game I want to run before Casino Royale comes out. Maybe I can convert Microlite20   to   Modus Operandi -- A Microlite20 Infused Game!

The four spy type classes would be Gunman (Fighter), Burglar (Thief), Transporter (+1 to drive, ??? skill) and Face (+3 communication). Then, if you want to be a 00x character, you multi-class. When you gain a level, you can choose another  class rather than your  existing  class. Guns d6, Rifle d8. etc...Chase  Rules...Cool Gadgets...Hmmm...need to do this soon...

Another post posited a way to make fighters a bit more powerful. How about increasing crit chance to 19 or 20 rather than just 20. Simple to remember and quick to play out.

Thanks!

Eric


----------



## Land Outcast

I've been following this thread for some time.... awesome work here  

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" Some give the credit of those words to Leo...

For Real... praises.

For the time being I have nothing to offer, but suggest the Sneak Attack=Subterfuge to be made into rule...

I'll return to my place as beholder...


----------



## RFisher

EvilDwarf said:
			
		

> I ran an entire campaign--one that we all enjoyed--using only three abilities of Fortitude, Reflex, and Will.




For a long time, I've tried building homebrew systems w/o attributes. After my bout playing with Fudge--where there's typically no connection between attributes & skills--I struck on that same idea of choosing attributes as save categories. (Inspired probably by both the d20 saves & some of the WHFRP attributes.)

In most of my homebrew attempts these days, characters typically have (at least) two types of abilities: skills & save-like attributes. They get rated on the same scale & do not effect one another.


----------



## greywulf

Oh my. So many good ideas, I hadly know where to start. That's another thing about minimalist systems; they encourage creativity and a sense of freedom with the rules. Too many rules can be stifling. 

I find this in D&D, especially when it comes to playing in the Forgotten Realms. I'm scared of breaking something Important. It's like I've borrowed the setting from someone else and I don't want to give it back cracked. Strange that.

Anyhow. I'm rambling again.

A new (minor) version of Microlite20.pdf is up with Hit Point costs for Spells modified to double spell level+1, complete with a little chart.

I know I keep talking about adding in more stuff, but I'm tempted to leave the core rules as they are for now - a single page of all the rules, plus a side of Monsters. That's two pages and enough to run a game from your back pocket if you wanted. I like that.

That means there'll be another .pdf of optional rules out sometime, which will collate all your excellent ideas together.

So far:

- +1 to Hit/+1 damage for Fighters every five levels
- or, allow Fighter to critical on a 19 or 20 - maybe at level 10? Good one, enelson!
- Some form of Sneak attack for Rogues. Linking it with Subterfuge somehow might work, but we'd need to figure out something that's very quick to handle in-game. Ideas?
- Reduced Spell Costs at higher levels. Maybe that would suit the more High-Powered style of gamer. I like M20's low magic (but free choice) feel myself though.
- Psionics. Hehehehehehe.

I like enelson's thoughts about a Microlite20Modern (M20M?) variant too. Really, it's just a case of changing the names of the classes (Brawler, Sneak, Pastor and Arcanist, maybe) and adding in modern weapons. After all, there's no skill names and feats to worry about. Anyone care to playtest?

In unrelated news, I've written a review of the D&D Rules Cyclopedia on my site. Feel free to stop by and comment!


----------



## kroh

*I would love to playtest Microlight Modern! * 

 What a Great name too   I think a good idea would be to have two versions of the rules.  The standard Microlight rules (two page PDF or the back pocket guide availlable in the lobby or through Lulu press for the low low price of...) and then a kicked up version with all the goodies in one tome (Rules, Gm's guide, Monsters, Equipment).  I think a neat gimick would be to have an actual pocket guide.  It could have the rules on the first two pages and then the perspective GM could use the rest of the notebook to write in his adventures or campaign ideas ( or the notebook could have an adventure inside along with the rules.  Microlight 20!  Back Pocket Gaming!  ).  

There is a lot one could do with this.  

Regards, 
Walt


----------



## greywulf

Y'know, I'm soooooooo tempted to release a PocketMod version of M20 complete with Monsters, a handful of spells and a microDungeon, just because........

Give me the weekend.


----------



## MeepoDM

greywulf said:
			
		

> That's another thing about minimalist systems; they encourage creativity and a sense of freedom with the rules. Too many rules can be stifling.




Couldn't agree more.  It is the #1 reason why d20 never clicked with me...until now 



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> I know I keep talking about adding in more stuff, but I'm tempted to leave the core rules as they are for now - a single page of all the rules, plus a side of Monsters. That's two pages and enough to run a game from your back pocket if you wanted. I like that.




I think that is an excellent suggestion.  I know yesterday after my over-thinking on the favored spell system that I eventually came to like it the way it is.  I'm going to run it as I have and really get to the meat of it.



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> - +1 to Hit/+1 damage for Fighters every five levels
> - or, allow Fighter to critical on a 19 or 20 - maybe at level 10? Good one, enelson!




I've been running the +/- 1 per five.  Just to keep the Fighter interesting at higher levels.



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> - Some form of Sneak attack for Rogues. Linking it with Subterfuge somehow might work, but we'd need to figure out something that's very quick to handle in-game. Ideas?




I've been using the Sub. skill rank to add to sneak attack damage since day 1 and I think it works well.  I've also been toying with a +1 INIT, but...



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> - Reduced Spell Costs at higher levels. Maybe that would suit the more High-Powered style of gamer. I like M20's low magic (but free choice) feel myself though.




See yesterday   



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> - Psionics. Hehehehehehe.




No comment (Psi's never been my bag).



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> In unrelated news, I've written a review of the D&D Rules Cyclopedia on my site. Feel free to stop by and comment!




Saw it yesterday - loved it!  I've long considered it the crown jewel of my meager collection - the one book I can always turn to for a fresh idea, no matter the edition.


----------



## MeepoDM

greywulf said:
			
		

> Y'know, I'm soooooooo tempted to release a PocketMod version of M20 complete with Monsters, a handful of spells and a microDungeon, just because........
> 
> Give me the weekend.




I would so be there!


----------



## Darrell

Technomancer said:
			
		

> Seriously, I'm looking forward to actually trying this out sometime.




You really should.  I've run six games with the Microlite20 rules and no PHB/DMG/MM at the table...three of those games being spur-of-the-moment things that took me less than 30 minutes to prepare for (_waaay_ less than the several hours our weekly sessions have been taking me using 3.5 rules as written).  My players created their initial characters in about 3 minutes.  

Less prep time = more play time = more fun all around.



			
				MeepoDM said:
			
		

> That method certainly sounds easy, but I'd hate to think of someone taking (from the example above) something like Disintegrate as their favored spell. For only 7 HP's a pop, that thing could be brutal!




Good point. How 'bout instead of 1HP less for your 1st level spell, 2HP less for your favourite 2nd level spell, and so forth, we could do something similar to the suggested Fighter's bonus where the Mage gets his favoured spells at -1hp/5 levels?  That way the Mage gets a bonus, and the bonus is structured with other rules.



			
				MeepoDM said:
			
		

> I've been using the Sub. skill rank to add to sneak attack damage since day 1 and I think it works well.




Ditto.  It seems to work really well, and is (like I mentioned above) structured within the existing rules.

I'll probably stick with the "classic" names for stats...well, except for MIND...instead of Fort/Ref/Will (especially since I add CHA back in in my game).  There's just something...aesthetically pleasing...to me about keeping 'em.

Regards,
Darrell

PS--

I quite agree with MeepoDM about the Rules Cyclopedia.  One of my biggest regrets, gaming-wise, is that I got rid of it (along with a RC DM Screen, the Thunder Rift setting book, and several adventure packs that went with it) when I ransacked my shelves and sold everything when 3e first came out.

--D.


----------



## MeepoDM

One thing I really dig about Microlite20 is its modularity.  The core is simple enough that each additional piece snaps in place like a puzzle.  Adding and removing pieces doesn't tend to disrupt the core "engine" so the game can easily be personalized.

For example, I use Darrell's spell list as my "base" spell list to draw from.  They are the only spells I allow to be casted on the fly.  Anything else, be it from the PHB or a supplement is allowed, but has to be first researched, scribed, granted from the gods etc. before it can be added to the spellcasters library.  Cuts back on the "tool for any occasion" and scanning of spell lists for an answer.  Sneak Attacks & Undead Turning are other good examples.  

Man I'm fired up to write an M20 adventure, but I'm so blasted busy this weekend, it'll have to wait until next *gah*!


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> Y'know, I'm soooooooo tempted to release a PocketMod version of M20 complete with Monsters, a handful of spells and a microDungeon, just because........
> 
> Give me the weekend.




Sir, you have my attention.


----------



## MeepoDM

It would seem that we have a collection of old Basic D&D players here!  Based on that, I hope you all appreciate this document.  I've always been a big fan of 'Fast Packs' and the lists in the B3 and B4 modules were some of my most used documents back in the day. We'd roll up a pile of characters with the tables in B1 and then assign them one of the three packs and BOOM, instant hireling!  

I figured with the two minute or less character creation of Microlite20, something like this would be like a smooth gravy over the top


----------



## greywulf

The smallest thing in gaming just got smaller!






Here's a Character sheet, generation rules, combat, magic, advancement and a grab-bag of Monsters all in a back pocket booklet created from a single side of paper.

Backpocket gaming. I love it.

Details, download and printing instructions here.

Meepo, I've added your Fast Packs to the download page. Excellent addition!

My next project is a dungeon adventure in the same format. If anyone else wants to make Pocketbooks like this, just download the offline PDFtoPocketMod generator from PocketMod. Create an 8 page PDF with a suitably BIG font (everything gets scaled down, massively) and run it through the generator. 

Simple, really. I wish there was a Linux version of the generator though. Ah well, can't have everything I guess


----------



## kroh

not as pretty as yours but...






Regards, 
Walt


----------



## greywulf

Excellent, Walt! Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder, remember. Exactly which eye, I'm not sure.

Consider yourself first entrant on the hallowed M20 Pocketbook fans page. Let me know a URL and I'll put up a link to your site.

Meantime, I'm writing an Adventure.

*The Temple of K'thu'uk *
A Microlite20 adventure suitable for four 1st level adventurers. 

Not so long ago the hill and it's environs was home to one of the stranger Kobold tribes of the realm. The entire area was deeply forested, and the Tribe of K'thu'uk held sway. These Verdant Kobolds called the tree branches their home, worshipping the bones of their Green Dragon ancestor in their whistling, chirping language. 

Then the humans came. They tore down much of the woodland to build their farms and villages. The  Tribe of K'thu'uk fought back as only they knew how, erecting ingenious traps along forest paths, luring hunters into deadly swampland and planting assassin vines and slumberspores where humans were likely to tread.

The humans grew to fear the Forest, and reacted in the way all Humans respond to things they fear. They destroyed it. Much of the forest was taken by fire leaving a vast tract of ash that has only become usable farmland in recent years. What remains of the the forest nestles atop the hill surrounded by a river – a fortunate defence against the flames, and the Verdant Kobold's saviour.

Hidden in the copse is a cave mouth underneath a rock outcropping shaped like a dragon's jaw. This is the entrance to the Temple of K'thu'uk, now the Verdant Kobold's home and holiest of holies.

You have been asked by the Sheriff of Ashton (the closest Human Village) to clear the kobolds from the area once and for all. Behemial Shoreson, one of the villagers, was killed in the Trapped Copse just a week ago. Enough is enough.


----------



## Land Outcast

OMG!... even an adventure!
admit it, this is a massive project


----------



## MeepoDM

It is now!! 

Nice work on the PocketMod, Greywulf.  I'd never seen those before yesterday and I'm hooked on 'em.  The fact that M20 now exists in the same format has me tickled.

What font size do you recommend to use?  I'd like to stay consistent with the adventure you're working on as well


----------



## kroh

edited because I'm lazy!

Regards,
Walt


----------



## Bretbo

I've been following this thread for a while and it keeps getting better and better.  Great job everyone!



			
				kroh said:
			
		

> I laughed so hard when I read that, coffee shot out of my nose!  That was awsome!
> 
> Regards,
> Walt


----------



## eyebeams

kroh said:
			
		

> got some logo's for you...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Walt




That's a nice gesture, but it's a copyright violation to actually use them. The top one *might* be OK, but you're not allowed to modify the d20 logo and I don 't know whether the first logo counts. You're also not allowed to use it without the d20STL or with character creation or advancement.


----------



## MeepoDM

Here is my entry (yep, I didn't buy into that 3.5 "upgrade" stuff!  ):






By the way, using a character sheet as the cover of the booklet - superb!!


----------



## greywulf

Great stuff! Meepo, your pic has been added to the fans page. Keep them coming!

I created the Microlite20 Pocketbook the long way round - working out the correct page size in Open Office, setting custom margins and using 6point type. Ouch! It's only when I can to reboot into XP to use the PDFtoPocketMod convertor that I realised I didn't need to do any of that; it converts and resizes for you, automatically. I'm going to keep a close eye on the font and size - right now I'm using Verdana 14point. That should scale down nicely and still be legible.

Meantime, want a sneak peek of the dungeon map? Ok!






Yes, there is no Room 10. There's a Very Good Reason for that 

I created this using the demonweb's excellent dungeon generator, screengrabbed it and prettified it up using GIMP. From there on, it's all my own work. 

Oh, and did I mention that tree-dwelling kobolds rock? I'm using some of the traps from Darrell's GM Guide to keep everything neat and tied together.

This is going to be available in both Pocketbook and normal sized for the Hard Of Seeing.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to populate Room 5..........


----------



## greywulf

Land Outcast said:
			
		

> OMG!... even an adventure!
> admit it, this is a massive project




Au Contrair. It's a _teeny tiny_ project!


----------



## greywulf

kroh said:
			
		

> got some logo's for you...




Good point my eyebeams, sad to say - much as I'd love to use them!

How about an M20 logo that looks like the d20 logo, only smaller and simpler?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.................


----------



## bytor4232

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> It is now!!
> 
> Nice work on the PocketMod, Greywulf.  I'd never seen those before yesterday and I'm hooked on 'em.  The fact that M20 now exists in the same format has me tickled.
> 
> What font size do you recommend to use?  I'd like to stay consistent with the adventure you're working on as well




Neither have I!  PocketMod rules!  I've even downloaded the offline version.  I'm a real hero around my house, making pocketmods for everyone.  I made a planner for the wife, a few games for my daughter, and some graph paper mods for jotting down ideas.

I do so love the PocketMod Microlite20.


----------



## MeepoDM

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> Neither have I!  PocketMod rules!  I've even downloaded the offline version.  I'm a real hero around my house, making pocketmods for everyone.  I made a planner for the wife, a few games for my daughter, and some graph paper mods for jotting down ideas.
> 
> I do so love the PocketMod Microlite20.




Hehe so have I.  My fingertips are worn down from so much folding over the past 24 hours I may have to cut back before I start leaving trails of blood all over my booklets.

I used to have a PDF and I just got tired of charging it, worrying about losing or breaking it, tired of software issues, that I sold it about 6 months back and have been using a plain spiral notebook - until now!! 

When you finish off a PocketBook, you'll notice the first page has a "pouch" on it.  The PocketMod page says this is intentional and can be used to carry a buisness card (or whatever).  I think I found a place to store my Microlite20 (formerly D&D  ) pog-miniatures that I sometimes use for visualization when gaming.


----------



## MeepoDM

greywulf said:
			
		

> Great stuff! Meepo, your pic has been added to the fans page. Keep them coming!
> 
> I created the Microlite20 Pocketbook the long way round - working out the correct page size in Open Office, setting custom margins and using 6point type. Ouch! It's only when I can to reboot into XP to use the PDFtoPocketMod convertor that I realised I didn't need to do any of that; it converts and resizes for you, automatically. I'm going to keep a close eye on the font and size - right now I'm using Verdana 14point. That should scale down nicely and still be legible.
> 
> Meantime, want a sneak peek of the dungeon map? Ok!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, there is no Room 10. There's a Very Good Reason for that
> 
> I created this using the demonweb's excellent dungeon generator, screengrabbed it and prettified it up using GIMP. From there on, it's all my own work.
> 
> Oh, and did I mention that tree-dwelling kobolds rock? I'm using some of the traps from Darrell's GM Guide to keep everything neat and tied together.
> 
> This is going to be available in both Pocketbook and normal sized for the Hard Of Seeing.
> 
> Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to populate Room 5..........





Good lookin' map, Greywulf!  Can't wait to see how it comes together.


----------



## kroh

Let's try this whole logo thing again






Regards,
Walt


----------



## greywulf

kroh said:
			
		

> Let's try this whole logo thing again




Wooyah! I like the logo. Good work Walt!

We need to decide whether the name is 

Micro_lite_20

or

Micro_light_20

Maybe it's spelled one way in the UK and another way in the US. Kinda like sidewalk and.....errrr....pavement.


----------



## MeepoDM

It can be either in the US, though I do prefer "lite" over "light".  Microlight makes me think of a teeny tiny lamp...


----------



## Muad'dib Pendragon

greywulf said:
			
		

> How about an M20 logo that looks like the d20 logo, only smaller and simpler?




Keeping with the simple, minimal theme, why not try something like *µ20*?

Or change the color to yellow or white to represent "lite" in microlite. (with dark background)


----------



## eyebeams

kroh said:
			
		

> Let's try this whole logo thing again
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Walt




That looks good.


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> My next project is a dungeon adventure in the same format. If anyone else wants to make Pocketbooks like this, just download the offline PDFtoPocketMod generator from PocketMod. Create an 8 page PDF with a suitably BIG font (everything gets scaled down, massively) and run it through the generator.
> 
> Simple, really. I wish there was a Linux version of the generator though. Ah well, can't have everything I guess




Yes, a Linux generator would be wicked cool, but alas...

Is it just me, or is the PDFtoPocketMod program really buggy?  I had to keep closing and opening the program before it would make a clean PDF.  But it works, so who cares.

I attached the Spell List Pocketmod.  Enjoy!


----------



## Frostmarrow

Hey, nice game. I'd like to help out. I've got a short adventure written to my own set of really simple rules that I can donate to this game. I need help to generate some stats.

The following is what I need statted:

* 2 first level human rangers with shortsword and short bows. (Ranger is just another name for a fighter, I guess.)
* 1 third level human rogue armed with a red hot poker in leather armor.
* 1 first level human commoner in shackles.
* 1 third level human fighter with bastard sword and studded leather.
* 1 dog.
* 1 first level human rogue plus third level knight armed with longsword and hand crossbow in studded leather.
* 3 first level human fighters with longswords and shortbows in leather armor and buckler.
* 10 first level human fighters armed with longswords in leather armor.
* 1 second level human paladin (fighter/cleric?) with longsword and steel shoulders (pieces of plate) and buckler.
* 1 first level rogue with battle axe and studded leather.
* 1 first level cleric with heavy mace and chain shirt.
* 2 first level fighters with longsword and padded armor.
* 1 fourth level rogue with shortsword and dagger in combat coat (basically a leather trenchcoat with hidden pockets.)
* 2 monitor lizards.

Please feel free to digress from what is described above if that takes your fancy.

Oh, and it would be nice if someone could make a trap suitable for second level party.

By the way, how is this EL thing going to work. I think it's a major hassle. Why not go with HD or level?


----------



## kroh

eyebeams said:
			
		

> That looks good.




Thank you.    I have two more renditions that I sent Wolf that have the alternate spelling for them.  If anyone wants them let me know and I will send the link.

*Ransom Note Font, such and such dollars...
*Overpriced Graphics suite that cost me a kidney...such and such dollars
*A few moments at work to whip it up... Some body else's dollars

***Scribbling together a logo for the fans of EN World... Priceless

Regards, 
Walt

Ahhh...the following for Microlite 20 is growing... Do I smell a take over?


----------



## Frostmarrow

* 2 first level human rangers with shortsword and short bows. (Ranger is just another name for a fighter, I guess.)

*Weston, Human Fighter-1*
STR 12 (+1), DEX 14 (+2), MIND 14 (+2)
hp 15, AC 12, Shortsword, +4, d6+1, or Short bow +4, 1d6
Physical +5, all others @ +2

*Green, Human Fighter-1*
STR 13 (+1), DEX 11 (+0), MIND 7 (-2)
hp 17, AC 10, Shortsword, +3, d6+1, or Short bow +2, 1d6
Physical +5, all others @ +2

This is just a start. I've done the rest too and will post the adventure shortly.


----------



## bytor4232

I made another Microlite Pocketmod from the Monster Manual in the Microlite20.rtf

Darrell, if you get me the rtfs of your PDF's, I can work on making Pocketmods.  Send them over to my email.


----------



## eyebeams

Frostmarrow said:
			
		

> By the way, how is this EL thing going to work. I think it's a major hassle. Why not go with HD or level?




In Quick20*, level advancement works like this:
1st to 2nd level: 3 game sessions
2nd-3rd level: 4 game sessions
3rd-4th level: 5 game sessions
. . . and so on.

I trust GMs to use appropriate encounters and challenges.

This means 1st-8th level takes 52 sessions of play (about a year and once/week) and 20th level takes about 5 years (1/week) of play.



*  Just to clarify: I figure that people who are interested in light systems are self-starters who are creative enough to pick and choose from rules they like. So even though I publish a light system I *want* Microlight20 to succeed as well. I encourage people to take what they want from Microlight20, my own game and other implementations to make the game they want.


----------



## kroh

eyebeams said:
			
		

> I encourage people to take what they want from Microlight20, my own game and other implementations to make the game they want.




Well Said...

Regards, 
Walt

In other news... Hey look!  The Core Trilogy


----------



## MeepoDM

Hehe... that picture punches me right in the happy place!

In other news, someone posted a thread on RPG.net!

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?p=6546940


----------



## Frostmarrow

*The Bandits of Orbless*

In pocketmod the text is really small. However, that matters not when breaking new ground in making books smaller.   

I haven't got a printer here so I don't know if any of it is legible. It certainly strains my eyes reading of my bargain screen.   

But without further ado I hereby present *The Bandits of Orbless* - a Microlite20 adventure for levels 1-3.


----------



## kroh

Frostmarrow said:
			
		

> But without further ado I hereby present The Bandits of Orbless - a Microlite20 adventure for levels 1-3.




Bravo!!!!


----------



## greywulf

Ok. You guys are starting to scare me now.



			
				kroh said:
			
		

> In other news... Hey look!  The Core Trilogy




Lol! Of course, everyone said that the second one was the best. I prefered the first though.



			
				Frostmarrow said:
			
		

> By the way, how is this EL thing going to work. I think it's a major hassle. Why not go with HD or level?




I'm sure it's a great adventure. Unfortunately my superior Linux-powered laptop can't read it because it's complaining about a place called "Helvetia". At least, I think that's what it says. Any chance you can use a different font? Thanks!

On the EL thing: Usually, Encounter Level equals Hit Dice, unless there's more than one critter attacking you in the same encounter, in which case add two to the HD for each doubling. Eg/ 2x1HD orcs = EL3. 4x1HD orcs = EL5. 8x1HD orcs = EL7. 16x1HD orcs = EL9. Hey, don't blame me. It's a SRD thing.

bytor4232: Thanks for the pocketbooks for the Spell Lists and Monster Manuals. We might need to redo them without colour though - the ink bleeds too much on yer average inkjets to make them readable at this size  Boo.

kroh: I haven't got the logos yet. Obviously eaten by the Email Tarrarasque. Can you resend please?

Re: the thread on rpg.net. I think we need an advocate there. They are attacking our vision without due defence!

µ20 is _tres_ geeky. I like.

Here's another snippet from the Temple of K'thu'uk:

*The Temple Entrance*
The entrance to the Temple is easily found; a stone outcropping shears out of the ground like a lunging dragon's maw. It is covered in a luminescent moss which gives it an eerie glow in the forested gloom. Beneath the outcropping is a small cavemouth barely 5' high. 
It is not trapped in any way – but do not tell the players that! Let them search. This is intentional deception designed to inflict paranoia on unwelcome visitors. A stone tunnel leads downward to a battered wooden door. There is a grill set in the wood about 3' from the ground.

All doors are made of very old, almost rotten wood (12hp) unless otherwise specified. The walls of this temple are covered in patches of phosphorescent moss giving gloomy lighting to a 10' radius. This is in itself a kobold trap – roll (phys+STR) DC12 each hour or take 1STR damage from spore inhalation. Anyone who takes more than 3STR damage develops a noisy dry cough making hiding or moving silently difficult (-4 penalty). The kobolds are immune to it's effects.  This damage heals when out of the Temple at a rate of 1STR/week.


----------



## Frostmarrow

greywulf said:
			
		

> Unfortunately my superior Linux-powered laptop can't read it because it's complaining about a place called "Helvetia". At least, I think that's what it says. Any chance you can use a different font? Thanks!




My best guess it complains about Helvetica. -A font available to Linux that is very similar to Arial, which I used. Here is a version that uses Helvetica instead. Hope it works.


----------



## jdrakeh

I just wanted to chime in and say that I like this a _lot_, although I'm not sure it meets its design goal of being 100% compatible with the entire SRD (many spells and skills that are related to abilities non-existent in Microlite20 simply aren't very useful). Other than that it's great and, if I hadn't just comitted to a True20 campaign, I'd probably be running Microlite. 

[Also, not to be pedantic, but there are actually tons of two-page freebie RPGs out there, so Microlite20 is vying with a lot of other games for the title "the smallest thing in gaming" -- that said, it's unmistakably the smallest thing in _d20_ gaming ]

[Edit: With your permission, I'd like to link to your home page from my *Game Wiki*http://miscellaneousdebris.sitesled.com/gamewiki.html.]


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> Ok. You guys are starting to scare me now.




That was my intention 




			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> bytor4232: Thanks for the pocketbooks for the Spell Lists and Monster Manuals. We might need to redo them without colour though - the ink bleeds too much on yer average inkjets to make them readable at this size  Boo.




I'll work on getting the colour out of the tables.  I'm working on an Equipment pocketmod as well.  I like the idea of an entire playable system that fits into your back pocket!


----------



## bytor4232

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> That was my intention
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll work on getting the colour out of the tables.  I'm working on an Equipment pocketmod as well.  I like the idea of an entire playable system that fits into your back pocket!




Okay, here is the Spells in glorious reverse-technicolour!


----------



## DJCupboard

Holy Cow!  

I've been seeing this pop to the top of enworld for a short while now and finally decided to click on it while at work.  I have to say that if I still had a readily available gaming group this would have just one out over the IH/AU variant I was toying with. Coudos to all involved. 

For a logo, why not an outline of a d20 with the letter "m" (lowercase on purpose) as the facing numeral, then microlite20 (still lowercase) underneath?  I'd create an example, but my artistic skills are quite laughable.

Thank you for this.

DJC


----------



## kroh

> For a logo, why not an outline of a d20 with the letter "m" (lowercase on purpose) as the facing numeral, then microlite20 (still lowercase) underneath? I'd create an example, but my artistic skills are quite laughable.




I got your back...








Regards,
Walt


----------



## bytor4232

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> Okay, here is the Spells in glorious reverse-technicolour!




Its pretty bad when I'm quoting my own posts 

Anyhoo, I added monsters to the RTF table, and still had four pages left.  So I decided to combine the monster manual and equipment list into one.  Also, instead of listing the ancillary equipment, I did the fastpacks instead.

Wow.  Now we not only have a complete RPG, now we have a complete RPG that fits in your back pocket.  Outstanding.


----------



## Jacob the Impaler

I'm definitely using this tonight, since I left all my D&D stuff at my dorm. I'll let you know how it works and throw in some insight tomorrow.


----------



## Frostmarrow

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> Okay, here is the Spells in glorious reverse-technicolour!




Can you tell me which font you use and which color you use for headers, please? It looks like firebrick to me but I could be wrong.


----------



## greywulf

jdrakeh said:
			
		

> I just wanted to chime in and say that I like this a _lot_, although I'm not sure it meets its design goal of being 100% compatible with the entire SRD (many spells and skills that are related to abilities non-existent in Microlite20 simply aren't very useful). Other than that it's great and, if I hadn't just comitted to a True20 campaign, I'd probably be running Microlite.
> 
> [Also, not to be pedantic, but there are actually tons of two-page freebie RPGs out there, so Microlite20 is vying with a lot of other games for the title "the smallest thing in gaming" -- that said, it's unmistakably the smallest thing in _d20_ gaming ]
> 
> [Edit: With your permission, I'd like to link to your home page from my *Game Wiki*http://miscellaneousdebris.sitesled.com/gamewiki.html.]




James, I'm honoured by your presence on this humble thread. 

I love small, rules-light systems and the more the merrier. I'd love to see all of them formatted as Pocketbooks like m20 then wecould have an offical weigh-in to see which is smallest. It would all be down to the weight of the ink, I guess 

My goal wasn't to create a 100% compatible d20 system, but to come up with something that could use all of the d20/SRD goodness at the table with the bare minimum of conversion. I agree that some spells Just Don't Convert Well. Owl's Wisdom is a good case in point; it's not much use without a WIS stat.  I'm not going to lose much sleep though because I don't think I've had a gamer cast that spell ever. If they did, I've give them a +2 bonus to Communication for the duration, or something.

That aside, it's surprisingly compliant in-game where 99% of the situations folks think out out-of-game just don't happen. Phew!


----------



## bytor4232

Here is Darryl's most excellent suppliments morphed into PocketMod.  I like these better than the work I did last night, what do you guys think?

You can download them here:  http://arthur.jfmi.net/m20/pocketmod/

My work from last night are in:  http://arthur.jfmi.net/m20/pocketmod/arthur

I attached Darryl's PocketMods to this post as well.


----------



## MeepoDM

Bytor, thanks!!!

I was heading out for a lunchdate, but was planning on doing the spell list into a pocketbook, possibly two (one for each list) if they wouldn't fit in one.  YOu saved me some work 

Why are pocketbooks so addictive anyway???


----------



## Darrell

greywulf said:
			
		

> That aside, it's surprisingly compliant in-game where 99% of the situations folks think out out-of-game just don't happen. Phew!




Seriously.

I've now run eight games using m20 for my group (well...seven and a half, anyway).  As of our last full-group game, it became official...we're using m20 as our base system from now on (well, m20 with my 'house rules'    ).  I didn't go the _Pocketmod_ route, but I did format my 'basic rules' document as an 8 1/2" by 11" bi-fold--though I'm thinking of changing it to put the Fast Pack info into the base document.

As DM, I'm lovin' it because of how much time game prep _doesn't_ take me.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## greywulf

Thanks again 

I'll update the download page (or is that downdate the upload page?) tomorrow. I'm watching Mel Brooks' "Dracula - Dead and Loving It" right now, and laughing too much to think straight.

Man, I love bad movies.

Oh, and Temple of K'thu'uk (my first Microlite20 adventure) is almost complete!


----------



## Darrell

Bytor, those pocketmods are incredible!

Maybe you should try to restructure the rtf/pdf file so that the pocketmod prints all the arcane spells on one 'half' of the page and all the divine spells on the other.  That way, a spell caster could run with only half a pocketmod.    

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## Frostmarrow

Darrell said:
			
		

> Bytor, those pocketmods are incredible!
> 
> Maybe you should try to restructure the rtf/pdf file so that the pocketmod prints all the arcane spells on one 'half' of the page and all the divine spells on the other.  That way, a spell caster could run with only half a pocketmod.
> 
> Regards,
> Darrell




And rearrange what is up and down so that you get one first page Arcane and when you flip it it becomes first page Divine.


----------



## MeepoDM

Darrell said:
			
		

> Bytor, those pocketmods are incredible!
> 
> Maybe you should try to restructure the rtf/pdf file so that the pocketmod prints all the arcane spells on one 'half' of the page and all the divine spells on the other.  That way, a spell caster could run with only half a pocketmod.
> 
> Regards,
> Darrell




Is there a way to split these into two books of spells (arcane and divine), with the remaining pages blank or in a blank list format so my players can add new spells as they gain them?  Kind of like their own "mini-spellbook"?  I haven't fooled around with the pocketmod stuff enough to know if you can combine the 'Official' PocketMod mods with your own stuff?


----------



## bytor4232

*Updated Equipment List Pocketmod*

I took out the part about character wealth and put in the Fastpacks.  I think they are more important in the context of speed and the concept of the PocketMod.


----------



## bytor4232

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> Is there a way to split these into two books of spells (arcane and divine), with the remaining pages blank or in a blank list format so my players can add new spells as they gain them?  Kind of like their own "mini-spellbook"?  I haven't fooled around with the pocketmod stuff enough to know if you can combine the 'Official' PocketMod mods with your own stuff?




Brilliant!  

Attached, or you can download them from my site.  I even included a nifty this-book-belongs-to part at the beginning.  There is one title/id page, four pages of spells, and three blank pages to write spells in.


----------



## bytor4232

Here is my pic for the Fans page.  I put my creations, aloung with Greywulf's creation.  Thats my dice collection aloung with them.  Exactly 42 dice.  Every one hand picked from individual bins over my years of playing.  All Translucent, no opaque.  Yes, I'm a dice wierdo.


----------



## MeepoDM

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> Brilliant!
> 
> Attached, or you can download them from my site.  I even included a nifty this-book-belongs-to part at the beginning.  There is one title/id page, four pages of spells, and three blank pages to write spells in.




YES!  That's exactly what I was thinking of, right down to the personalized touches on the cover!  These are superb, thank you so much, Bytor!!  Now I am ready to roll!!!


----------



## greywulf

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> Here is my pic for the Fans page.  I put my creations, aloung with Greywulf's creation.  Thats my dice collection aloung with them.  Exactly 42 dice.  Every one hand picked from individual bins over my years of playing.  All Translucent, no opaque.  Yes, I'm a dice wierdo.]




Bytor, that's priceless  Uploaded to the fans page. You're an uber geek if you know what the highest possible number is that you can roll if you total all the dice.

I'm in the middle of uploading the terrific pocketbooks now..........


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> Bytor, that's priceless  Uploaded to the fans page. You're an uber geek if you know what the highest possible number is that you can roll if you total all the dice.




I loves my dice   In fact, I lost two d20s the other day and had to immediately go on a quest to get my count back up to 42.  And no, using the d20s out of my "dice loan" bag wasn't an option, cause they were opaque.  




			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> I'm in the middle of uploading the terrific pocketbooks now..........




I see you went with the pocketmod with the character wealth.  Thats cool.  I have another version of the Equipment List that includes the Fastpacks, I like that one better.  If your going to use one over the other, let me know so I can rename the fastpack version so it doesn't get overwritten some day.

I attached it to this thread in case your interested in swapping it out:

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3168853

I also made a pocketbook that had both sets of spells in one booklet.  I don't know, some people may want both sets of spells in one book.  I could be wrong.


----------



## greywulf

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> I see you went with the pocketmod with the character wealth.  Thats cool.  I have another version of the Equipment List that includes the Fastpacks, I like that one better.  If your going to use one over the other, let me know so I can rename the fastpack version so it doesn't get overwritten some day.




By bad - I overwrote it in error! Fixed now - the one on the site is the now with the fastpacks included. I agree, I like that one better too 

I'm with you on the dice. No one ever borrows my dice. Ever. I have.........uhhhh.... too many to count!

Talking of which, anyone fancy creating a Random Dice pocketbook - 8 pages of tables containing random numbers (one page each for d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20, d100 and a page or instructions) in a table. Point at the page and that's the number you've got, just like in the old Lone Wolf books.

That would make M20 diceless too! 

Also, I'm thinking random encounter and treasure tables. Yeh.


----------



## MeepoDM

greywulf said:
			
		

> Also, I'm thinking random encounter and treasure tables. Yeh.




I was thinking about this too.  Remember this gem from yesteryear?  Good stuff for on-the-spot games!


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> By bad - I overwrote it in error! Fixed now - the one on the site is the now with the fastpacks included. I agree, I like that one better too
> 
> I'm with you on the dice. No one ever borrows my dice. Ever. I have.........uhhhh.... too many to count!
> 
> Talking of which, anyone fancy creating a Random Dice pocketbook - 8 pages of tables containing random numbers (one page each for d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20, d100 and a page or instructions) in a table. Point at the page and that's the number you've got, just like in the old Lone Wolf books.
> 
> That would make M20 diceless too!
> 
> Also, I'm thinking random encounter and treasure tables. Yeh.




I like the idea of random encounters and treasure tables.  I'm always running games "on the fly" for my friends and family.  Those would be pretty leet.

However, don't make m20 diceless!  That would kill me!  Plus, you might as well drop the 20 then!


----------



## greywulf

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> However, don't make m20 diceless!  That would kill me!  Plus, you might as well drop the 20 then!




Yeh. We could just call it "M"!

Don't worry, there's no plans to make it diceless - but it might be a useful addition for those times when you're Dice Constrained.


----------



## MeepoDM

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> However, don't make m20 diceless!  That would kill me!  Plus, you might as well drop the 20 then!




I agree.  A cool gimmick, but I just can't part with me dice!!


----------



## Moleculo

I thought that a better way to state multiple attacks would be "After the first attack, a player may reduce thier Attack Bonus by 5 and attack again as long as the AB remains above 0."


----------



## Frostmarrow

greywulf said:
			
		

> Also, I'm thinking random encounter and treasure tables. Yeh.




I was just thinking... The equipment table features all those weapons we've learned _not_ to use. What a waste of space.    -Trim that table and use the room to cover some magical items instead.

99% of all characters characters use the same type of weapon anyway. Also, you mentioned Lone Wolf - check this out. I know we can't use the pictures but they _are_ nice, aren't they?


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> Yeh. We could just call it "M"!
> 
> Don't worry, there's no plans to make it diceless - but it might be a useful addition for those times when you're Dice Constrained.




Thats what my Palm m105 is for   Besides, I typically don't leave my house without at least one each of my little buddies.  You never know when a d20, d12, d10, d8, d6, and a d4 might come in handy.  I even have a little pouch to put them in for travel.

Man I have problems.


----------



## bytor4232

Frostmarrow said:
			
		

> I was just thinking... The equipment table features all those weapons we've learned _not_ to use. What a waste of space.    -Trim that table and use the room to cover some magical items instead.
> 
> 99% of all characters characters use the same type of weapon anyway. Also, you mentioned Lone Wolf - check this out. I know we can't use the pictures but they _are_ nice, aren't they?




I plan on making up magic items on the fly, personally.  A plus one whatever is a plus one whatever, no matter where its worn.


----------



## Greyharp

These M20 pocketmods are so damn addictive, they've even managed to drag me out of official lurking status. My fingers are sore from so much cutting and folding


----------



## Darrell

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> I even included a nifty this-book-belongs-to part at the beginning.  There is one title/id page, four pages of spells, and three blank pages to write spells in.




Great work, once again!     

My players will likely be getting these instead of my pdf (though the pdf will still be in my 'master' book.

I really like the "base spell list = the spellbook/prayerbook, then add spells as you encounter/learn them" angle.  I'm probably gonna use that one myself.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## MeepoDM

Greyharp said:
			
		

> These M20 pocketmods are so damn addictive, they've even managed to drag me out of official lurking status. My fingers are sore from so much cutting and folding




 

That seems to be one of the major themes of this thread!


----------



## bytor4232

I created a random Level 1 Jamis Buck Dungeon Crawl for Pocketmod.  You can download it here at my site.  I didn't do much editing, just wanted to contribute to the Adventure cause 

EDIT:  That dungeon was broken, so I deleted it.  Sorry guys!  I'll post a fixed version.


----------



## bytor4232

Okay, so that didn't take long.  Here is a fixed Dungeon Adventure for ya.


----------



## Khuxan

*House Rules*

I'm jotting down some notes on house rules for Microlite20, so if you have any of your own, please share them.


----------



## greywulf

Oh I like James Buck Pocketbooks! Thanks, bytor. They suit Microlite20's on-the-fly dungeon crawl nature perfectly.

We need to add the d20 license to the back of every pdf, btw. I can do that to every pdf I upload to http://home.greywulf.net/m20 easily, so if you put Pocketmods up here, I'll add the license before uploading.

I'll add it to the ones I have already later today.

And I WILL finish the adventure today. I will I will I will. Damn you, distracting TV and work.


----------



## bytor4232

Do you want the license added to the pocketbooks too?  To be honest, I don't know how thats even possible, unless we just link to the license.

I guess I could put it as page 9, that way people can print the license page if they want


----------



## greywulf

Yes please!

If it's uploaded without one though, I'll add it myself before putting it on the site.

Thanks.


----------



## Darrell

Khuxan said:
			
		

> I'm jotting down some notes on house rules for Microlite20, so if you have any of your own, please share them.




Mine are incorporated into my "basic" m20 document for my players.  I've attached it below.  Mine includes the CHA stat, rules for Turning Undead, and a few other changes.  I can't think what all of 'em are off the top of my head--you'll have to compare my sheet with greywulf's original.  At first glance, the layout is a bit odd: the first 'page' is on 'page four,' because it's arranged to be printed double-sided in landscape-fashion on an 8 1/2" x 11" page as a bi-fold.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> Yes please!
> 
> If it's uploaded without one though, I'll add it myself before putting it on the site.
> 
> Thanks.




No need.  Visit my site to download the "corrected" version:

http://arthur.jfmi.net/m20

The license isn't exactly readable without a magnifying lens, but hey!  It works!


----------



## bytor4232

Introducing my first ever Microlite20 adventure!  Fonkin the Gnome!

Download it here:  http://arthur.jfmi.net/m20/adv/FonkinTheGnome.pdf

(( Actually its the same one as posted last night, but I attached the OGL and included a few adventure hooks ))

EDIT:  I screwed up the stats on the NPC.  Fixed.


----------



## greywulf

Great stuff! I've updated the versions on the "official" site so they've now got the 20 license too, and added in Bytor's adventure to the download page too 

I'll have my adventure finished later tonight (it's 19:26 here in the dark, cold UK) so that'll be uploaded in the morning. 

After that, I'm going to put together a Modern supplement, just because. Then M20 Future.


----------



## kroh

> After that, I'm going to put together a Modern supplement, just because. Then M20 Future.




NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards, 
Walt


----------



## bytor4232

Here is another PocketMod adventure:  
The Tomb of Mighty Madness

This one isn't Microlite20 specific, but it works nonetheless.  Enjoy!


----------



## kroh

Wow!  I can't keep up with the Microlite-a-pedia!!!

Regards,
Walt


----------



## bytor4232

kroh said:
			
		

> Wow!  I can't keep up with the Microlite-a-pedia!!!
> 
> Regards,
> Walt




hehe, other than the adventures, most everything has been posted up at Greywulf's site.

If you've lost track, you can nab the adventures I've put together at http://arthur.jfmi.net/m20

Even with everything printed, they still all fit in your back pocket!  Outstanding.


----------



## Greyharp

I've noticed that the core rule book is a larger format than all the other pocketmods. Any chance of it being made the same size as the others - maybe a smaller font? I've been considering making a cardboard sleeve/case to put them all in and it would be helpful if they were all the same size. 

I've tried making my own, but whenever I try to use the pdf to pocketmod software, it pulls an error :-(     I tried contacting the owner of the software and my emails bounce back and I've tried other pdf to swf programmes but without luck. I'm normally pretty cluey with computers and software, but this one has me beat. Very frustrating after watching others on this thread pump them out faster than I could print them and put them together. 

I'm looking forward to seeing more people's creations, and thanks once again to Greywulf and everyone else who has made the last few days so entertaining.


----------



## Darrell

Greyharp said:
			
		

> I've noticed that the core rule book is a larger format than all the other pocketmods. Any chance of it being made the same size as the others - maybe a smaller font? I've been considering making a cardboard sleeve/case to put them all in and it would be helpful if they were all the same size.




You might be looking at my 'house rules' core book, or maybe the original file.  Those are in a larger format.  The core rules were the first things that greywulf turned into a PocketMod.  It's available at his site (linked elsewhere in the thread).

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## bytor4232

You could also save Greywulf the bandwidth and nab em here:  http://arthur.jfmi.net/m20


----------



## bytor4232

Greyharp said:
			
		

> I've tried making my own, but whenever I try to use the pdf to pocketmod software, it pulls an error :-(     I tried contacting the owner of the software and my emails bounce back and I've tried other pdf to swf programmes but without luck. I'm normally pretty cluey with computers and software, but this one has me beat. Very frustrating after watching others on this thread pump them out faster than I could print them and put them together.




The program is buggy, but only with certain PDFs.  Some PDF's, like those generated with OpenOffice, need to be run through a wierd process:

1. Open PDF2Pocketmod
2. Open the PDF to be converted
3. Click "Save" button
4. Give filename, then click okay.  It will give you an error.
5. Click "Save" button again, and hit OK

Then it will save the PDF.  The ps2pdf files I've generated by printing to a file Firefox don't have this problem, only the PDFs exported from OpenOffice.


----------



## Darrell

Heh.  At least he can open the program.  My dinosaur of a computer won't even do that much.  I'm probably missing some crucial file or other in Windows.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## bytor4232

You have to install .NET.  You can get to it in Windows Update, but it takes some act of wizardry to do so.  Its somewhere under custom, then other software.


----------



## Greyharp

Darrell said:
			
		

> Originally Posted by Greyharp
> I've noticed that the core rule book is a larger format than all the other pocketmods. Any chance of it being made the same size as the others - maybe a smaller font?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You might be looking at my 'house rules' core book, or maybe the original file.  Those are in a larger format.  The core rules were the first things that greywulf turned into a PocketMod.  It's available at his site (linked elsewhere in the thread).
> 
> Regards,
> Darrell
Click to expand...



Nope, definitely Greywulf's original rule book. It's the same height, just about half a centimetre wider - splitting hairs I know. 




			
				bytor4232 said:
			
		

> You could also save Greywulf the bandwidth and nab em here: http://arthur.jfmi.net/m20




lol, I did that too, thanks for that 




			
				bytor4232 said:
			
		

> The program is buggy, but only with certain PDFs. Some PDF's, like those generated with OpenOffice, need to be run through a wierd process:
> 
> 1. Open PDF2Pocketmod
> 2. Open the PDF to be converted
> 3. Click "Save" button
> 4. Give filename, then click okay. It will give you an error.
> 5. Click "Save" button again, and hit OK
> 
> Then it will save the PDF. The ps2pdf files I've generated by printing to a file Firefox don't have this problem, only the PDFs exported from OpenOffice.
> 
> You have to install .NET....




Thanks bytor, I'll try your suggestion. I did download .Net and I do use Firefox. Who knows, computers don't always do the logical thing, no matter what the geeks try to tell you.


----------



## Greyharp

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> The program is buggy, but only with certain PDFs.  Some PDF's, like those generated with OpenOffice, need to be run through a wierd process:
> 
> 1. Open PDF2Pocketmod
> 2. Open the PDF to be converted
> 3. Click "Save" button
> 4. Give filename, then click okay.  It will give you an error.
> 5. Click "Save" button again, and hit OK
> 
> Then it will save the PDF.  The ps2pdf files I've generated by printing to a file Firefox don't have this problem, only the PDFs exported from OpenOffice.




Nope doesn't work for me :-(

I think I'll quit before I go insane and just enjoy the wonderful pocketmod creations of other people. Thanks anyway bytor


----------



## Nadaka

Greyharp said:
			
		

> Nope, definitely Greywulf's original rule book. It's the same height, just about half a centimetre wider - splitting hairs I know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol, I did that too, thanks for that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks bytor, I'll try your suggestion. I did download .Net and I do use Firefox. Who knows, computers don't always do the logical thing, no matter what the geeks try to tell you.




Computers are always logical. They always follow instructions precisely.
They are not responsible if the programmer wrote some bad code.
They are not responsible if the user is giving the wrong instructions, to many, or not enough.

but when all else fails with your computer, try voodoo. It actually has a success rate higher than calling tech support.


----------



## EditorBFG

This is really neat.

It reminds me of a project we had at BFG to create one of those "narrativist" rpgs with the d20 SRD. I think I will dig it up and compare. Ours was based around making everything a saving throw, so it'll be a lot different, but this is way simpler.


----------



## greywulf

If anyone wants to re-do the core rules as a pocketmod to bring the style in line with the other books, go right ahead; I'll gladly update it on the site too. No house rules please though - that way we're all singing the same bassline.

I plan to pull all of the House Rules together at somepoint to create an Unearthed Arcana-style Microlite20 pocketbook full of optional rules, twists, add-ons and stuff. Interested?


----------



## Greyharp

I must have too much time on my hands, slipcase finished:


----------



## greywulf

Oh that is just TOO COOL Greyharp!!!!! Added to the the Fans page .

Amazing. Long may you continue to have too much time on your hands


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> If anyone wants to re-do the core rules as a pocketmod to bring the style in line with the other books, go right ahead; I'll gladly update it on the site too. No house rules please though - that way we're all singing the same bassline.




Do you want me to redo the PocketMod?  I can get it done very quickly if you send me the RTF, or I can rebuild the PocketMod from the print version RTF.

(( dm@aerthon.com ))


----------



## greywulf

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> Do you want me to redo the PocketMod?  I can get it done very quickly if you send me the RTF, or I can rebuild the PocketMod from the print version RTF.




Bytor, I'll be happy for you to do the PocketMod from the .rtf up at http://home.greywulf.net/m20/downloads.html. Remove what's not needed and add in what you think may be of use. I reckon we could lose the monsters and add in.....well, I'll leave it to you  The fast packs maybe, or a short list of weapons and equipment.

Remember to stick the d20 license at the end. That can be on a separate page, not to be printed.


----------



## Bretbo

greywulf said:
			
		

> ...I'm going to put together a Modern supplement, just because.




I hate to steal your thunder, greywulf; but inspired by this really great project...I started a Modern conversion.

Sorry, wanted to help.  Feel free to use any of the material attached.

Note: the material is in draft form and needs final layout.


----------



## greywulf

Bretbo said:
			
		

> I hate to steal your thunder, greywulf; but inspired by this really great project...I started a Modern conversion.
> 
> Sorry, wanted to help.  Feel free to use any of the material attached.
> 
> Note: the material is in draft form and needs final layout.




Consider my Thunder completely stolen  Great work, duly uploaded to the download page. That will more than suffice until you, me, or anyone else picks it up and comes up with a revised version. I like your additions to combat and the supporting cast list. Terrific stuff.

By the time I've finished counting to twenty, someone will have created it as a Pocketbook.

One...two....three....four....


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> Consider my Thunder completely stolen  Great work, duly uploaded to the download page. That will more than suffice until you, me, or anyone else picks it up and comes up with a revised version. I like your additions to combat and the supporting cast list. Terrific stuff.
> 
> By the time I've finished counting to twenty, someone will have created it as a Pocketbook.
> 
> One...two....three....four....




I'll do it, just can't right now.  Maby this afternoon.  I'll also make a modern equipment pocketbook.

Anything else from the Modern SRD that should be in the pocketbook?


----------



## Bretbo

greywulf said:
			
		

> ...Great work...I like your additions to combat and the supporting cast list. Terrific stuff.




Thanks!  I'm a little shaky on some areas (like the Classes), but think it captures the D20 Modern feel.  Any suggestions, fixes, ect are greatly appreciated (by anyone).



			
				bytor4232 said:
			
		

> Anything else from the Modern SRD that should be in the pocketbook?




Maybe the spell list?


----------



## bytor4232

Bretbo said:
			
		

> Thanks!  I'm a little shaky on some areas (like the Classes), but think it captures the D20 Modern feel.  Any suggestions, fixes, ect are greatly appreciated (by anyone).
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the spell list?




I would use the same spells from the m20 core rules, personally.  

Honestly, I think I'll have enough stuff from the equipment list to fill a pocketmod.  d20 Modern games need vehicles and whatnot.


----------



## kroh

> Thanks! I'm a little shaky on some areas (like the Classes), but think it captures the D20 Modern feel. Any suggestions, fixes, ect are greatly appreciated (by anyone).




I would say that instead of referencing the "Core Rules" that you should just put them in.  Looks really good though.  

Regards, 
Walt


----------



## bytor4232

I like the idea of refrencing the m20 core booklet.  In terms of space and keeping things to a minimum, it makes sense.  There is a lot more to put in a modern booklet with occupations.


----------



## kroh

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> I like the idea of refrencing the m20 core booklet.  In terms of space and keeping things to a minimum, it makes sense.  There is a lot more to put in a modern booklet with occupations.




Good point


----------



## DJCupboard

Gone for the weekend and so much happens.  Kroh, that is better than my imagination.  As long as this is basically a grow your own adventure kind of grass-roots movement, any chance that you could post instructions for putting together one of those nifty slipcases, greyharp?

Congrats, Greywulf; you are now the Woody Guthrie of the OGL.

DJC


----------



## kroh

Greyharp said:
			
		

> I must have too much time on my hands, slipcase finished:





OK...That is just too cool for school.

Regards, 
Walt


----------



## Sadrik

I did some work on this project last night.

BTW its a great idea!

Mostly I did some editing. But I added in a few rules changes. 

I can summarize my changes:
Giving warriors weapon specialization.
Giving rogues sneak attack.
Giving wizards signature spells.
Giving clerics turn undead.

Elaborating into 6 skills- Geez, I just upped the complexity by a 1/3! Greywolf the magic skill was sort of there all along I just codified it into a skill. And the physical split was just needed imo. I also listed the old skills under each skill- to give people an idea of what they were doing with the skills.

I simplified the weapons and armor into classes. Ie a long sword is a medium weapon a rapier is a light weapon etc. A blurb about size and weapons.

I made hit points 2/3/4 per level rather than 1d6.

Multiple attacks give -4 penalty to all attacks for each extra attack. Must have a positive bonus.

Magic "damage" is further defined as fatigue damage.

Monsters: I think this is the area that needs the most work. I made a change to how they get hit points. Basically have it fall in line with how characters get them.

undead and constructs get 5 per level + str
warriory monsters get 4
average monsters get 3
wizardy/fey like/delicate monsters get 2

Monsters should have their three stats listed.

But other than some minor editing for typos and in some places content (without changing the intent). Its good. I'll try and run it with my group.


----------



## Sadrik

Also savings throws dont scale right.

I would suggest that magic DCs be set up like this.
DC = MIND + wizard level + 10
Vs: appropriate skill + 1d20

The way it stands right now. Saves scale more quickly than DCs.


----------



## DJCupboard

I'm not privelaged enough to make my own PDFs, but here are some ideas for m20 Modern:

Either 3 base classes (one for each stat, as befits the Modern tradition): Strong Hero (STR), Fast Hero (DEX), Smart or Dedicated Hero (Mind); or one class for each save: Athletic Hero (Physical), Subtle Hero (Subterfuge), Wise Hero (Knowledge), and Diplomatic Hero (Communication).

OK, so that's only one idea.


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> Bytor, I'll be happy for you to do the PocketMod from the .rtf up at http://home.greywulf.net/m20/downloads.html. Remove what's not needed and add in what you think may be of use. I reckon we could lose the monsters and add in.....well, I'll leave it to you  The fast packs maybe, or a short list of weapons and equipment.
> 
> Remember to stick the d20 license at the end. That can be on a separate page, not to be printed.




I got it done:  

http://arthur.jfmi.net/m20/Pocketmod/Microlite20 - Core - Pocketmod.pdf

I didn't trim anything, I just moved a few things around and reformatted a couple of other things.  I never know what to take out and what to leave in.  I also wanted it to look decent, being that this is the core booklet.  The print is small, but no smaller than a paperback novel, at least not that much smaller.  Its quite legible, and it looks more like the other work I did.

Let me know if this is unacceptable, or if you want me to change anything.  If you use OpenOffice, you can grab my work prior to being exported to PDF here:  

http://arthur.jfmi.net/m20/work/Microlite20 - Core - Pocketmod.sxw

For some odd reason, RTFs don't save well for me.


----------



## enelson

@Darrell

I really liked your mod to ML20. A question about turning though:
* What is the DC that must be beat to turn an undead critter? Is it the AC of said critter?

@Greywulf

I like the Unearthed Arcana idea! Be great to see all the different ideas this little mod has generated.

Thanks!

Eric


----------



## Darrell

enelson said:
			
		

> @Darrell
> 
> I really liked your mod to ML20. A question about turning though:
> * What is the DC that must be beat to turn an undead critter? Is it the AC of said critter?




Yep.  I figured it, quite simply, as an attack form using the Magic Attack Bonus from greywulf's original document vs the target's AC.  A bit simplistic, yes; but that's kind of the idea behind m20.  I can tell ya that it's worked pretty well for my group in playtesting.

Of course, you could also use Sadrik's formula (Turn DC = 10 + undead's HD x 2), if it's more what you're looking for.  I just tend to go for the quickest solution, 'cuz I want things over with quickly, combat-wise.  That's one of the big draws m20 holds for me.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## Bretbo

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> I would use the same spells from the m20 core rules, personally.
> 
> Honestly, I think I'll have enough stuff from the equipment list to fill a pocketmod.  d20 Modern games need vehicles and whatnot.




All makes sense to me.



			
				bytor4232 said:
			
		

> I like the idea of refrencing the m20 core booklet. In terms of space and keeping things to a minimum, it makes sense. There is a lot more to put in a modern booklet with occupations.




Yeah, I figured if the Core Rules get changed/upgraded/fixed whatever, then it all fits together with a minimum of fuss.  Well, thats the idea anyway.



			
				DJCupboard said:
			
		

> Either 3 base classes (one for each stat, as befits the Modern tradition): Strong Hero (STR), Fast Hero (DEX), Smart or Dedicated Hero (Mind); or one class for each save: Athletic Hero (Physical), Subtle Hero (Subterfuge), Wise Hero (Knowledge), and Diplomatic Hero (Communication).




Good points, Cupboard!  I think the best way would be to do the three stats as Heroic Classes with bonuses going to their appropriate skill.  That would fix the trouble of figuring how to make a Strong Hero and Tough Hero truly different (didn't like my solution).  Expect a update to come soon.

...and maybe a few Menaces.


----------



## Greyharp

DJCupboard said:
			
		

> ...any chance that you could post instructions for putting together one of those nifty slipcases, greyharp?
> DJC




Bugger! I knew I should've scanned the thing before I stuck it together. I basically opened up a dvd slipcase to see how it was constructed and then drew one up myself, using a ruler and some thin cardboard. The stuff I used was a bit too thick and something around the thickness of a greeting card would be ideal.

The semi-circular cut-out was made by tracing around a coin (an Australian 10 cent piece, about the same size as a US Quarter or the British 10p) and I used the images from Greywulf's download page (thanks Kroh) for the labels, pasting them into a Word document and then making them smaller (believe it or not, I held the box up against the computer screen to judge the size).  

Its measurements are 10.5cm long, 7cm wide and 3cm thick, or for metrically challenged approx. 4 & 2/16 inches long, 2 & 3/4 inches wide and 1 & 3/16 inches thick. It may be a tad wide, but I made it so in greedy anticipation of more pocketmods to come 

If anyone has trouble coming up with a pattern, let me know and I'll whip up a rough sketch, scan it and post it on the thread. 

Dave


----------



## MeepoDM

Definitely cool, Greyharp!  I was thinking of something similar to that as well, but not a slipcase, but rather something to keep all the documents tidy.  Nice work!


----------



## Mishihari Lord

I just want to join the chorus singing "wow, that's cool"

I would also love to read an m20 storyhour if anyone's interested in writing their games up, just to see how the system works out in actual play.


----------



## MeepoDM

greywulf said:
			
		

> If anyone wants to re-do the core rules as a pocketmod to bring the style in line with the other books, go right ahead; I'll gladly update it on the site too. No house rules please though - that way we're all singing the same bassline.
> 
> I plan to pull all of the House Rules together at somepoint to create an Unearthed Arcana-style Microlite20 pocketbook full of optional rules, twists, add-ons and stuff. Interested?




Very interested.  If you are interested, here are the houserules I've been using:

1) Fighters get an additional +1 to hit/damage for each 5 levels
2) Rogues get to add their Subterfuge bonus to successful Sneak Attacks
3) Spell casters are limited to the spells on Darrell's sheet.  New spells (AKA spells in the PHB and other sources) are available through research, scrolls, and gifts from the gods.

I've also got a few ideas for new races and classes that have been bouncing around in my head for the past 2 weeks, but haven't bothered writing them down as I really like the spread that is currently available.


----------



## bytor4232

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> Definitely cool, Greyharp!  I was thinking of something similar to that as well, but not a slipcase, but rather something to keep all the documents tidy.  Nice work!




I have two black velvet dice bags, about 8 inches by 8 inches.  One of them I keep my special collection of dice in it, the other bag has been free for whatever.  Last night I found a use for them!  I put a set of dice in it, and the Microlite PocketMod's fit perfectly!  All of the PocketMods producted so far!  Even the adventures!



			
				Mishihari Lord said:
			
		

> I just want to join the chorus singing "wow, that's cool"
> 
> I would also love to read an m20 storyhour if anyone's interested in writing their games up, just to see how the system works out in actual play.




My daughter and I played it tonight.  The character generation took about a quarter of the time it usually takes with 3.5e.  The combat was a lot quicker and less confusing, big time.  Microlite20 is very cool.  We only played for an hour, and in that hour we rolled up our characters and had two encounters.

This system is definatly a fun break.  I'll never get rid of my 3.5e books, it still holds a certain charm, and my groups are firmly entrentched.  And I love feats, saving throws, minis, new suppliments, Paizo's monthly rags.  Third Edition is my baby, that'll never change.

However, Microlite20 is definatly a fun version of D&D.  I think its what Basic D&D should have been.  Its a great way to teach players the game, or to have a little side "throw away" game, or to just roll the bones.  Its a lot more relaxing and enjoyable when your kickin it, and lookin for a little fast D&D action.


----------



## MeepoDM

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> I have two black velvet dice bags, about 8 inches by 8 inches.  One of them I keep my special collection of dice in it, the other bag has been free for whatever.  Last night I found a use for them!  I put a set of dice in it, and the Microlite PocketMod's fit perfectly!  All of the PocketMods producted so far!  Even the adventures!




Good call!  I've got a TSR bag (can't remember where it came from) that really isn't my favorite dice bag that would work perfect size-wise.  



			
				bytor4232 said:
			
		

> However, Microlite20 is definatly a fun version of D&D. I think its what Basic D&D should have been. Its a great way to teach players the game, or to have a little side "throw away" game, or to just roll the bones. Its a lot more relaxing and enjoyable when your kickin it, and lookin for a little fast D&D action.




Agreed.  I'm a big, big fan of old school D&D.  I don't mind playing 3.X D&D, just don't want to have anything to do with running it.  Believe me, _I've tried!_  M20 is a great way for me to run my DCC's and Dungeon mags without converting over to an older system, which I dig.


----------



## MeepoDM

Oh yes, and before I forget, congratulations!


----------



## Sadrik

Can I get a critique?


----------



## kroh

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> Oh yes, and before I forget, congratulations!




Wow Wulf...you're official!

Regards,
Walt


----------



## greywulf

DJCupboard said:
			
		

> Congrats, Greywulf; you are now the Woody Guthrie of the OGL.




Lol! I promise not to sing. Not even in the wood with an acoustic guitar. Ever.

Yet again, I blink and you guys kick out more goodness than I could possibly imagine. I'll try to cover everything here.......

It's great to get on rpg.net with this. I guess we're kinda official now, not some underground anti-complexity resistance movement dedicated to overthrowing the tyranny of....errr.....tyrants! No, that didn't come out right at all. Ah well.

It's interesting to see that there's some people who grok this, and others who don't. That's cool. Sometimes I want something small and light just to play a quick game. Other times I like all the books surrounding me like a comfort blanket. I wouldn't use Microlite20 to play an epic long-reaching campaign, but it's great for quick one-shots, for teaching rpg'ing and generally goofing around. It's fun to customize too, which is a part of it's charm.

There's no way I'm going to add in everyone's suggestions to Microlite20, though an UA-style pocketmod of House Rules will come round the corner sometime.

Sadrik; it's good to see the changes you've made, I'm glad you like it. I must admit, some of them aren't to my taste (Agility /and/ Athletics as a skill? Why?), but each to their own  Again, some of what you've done might find it's way into the House Rules .pdf. As to save DCs for spells - I like that they don't scale. Call me kooky, but I reckon 20th level Magi should be able to call down the thunder and all that anyone can do is run for cover, not make some dum-ass Reflex-save and still be in the same spot. High-level magic should be feared, not brushed away because of a good save. But hey, what do I know? Again, if you don't like it, change it - there'll probably be House Rules about this too, to suit every campagin level.

I've got lots of old Dragon Dice bags somewhere around. Must dig them out. Mumble mumble.

I'm tempted to put Fighter getting +1 attack/damage at 1st, 5th then every five levels, into canon. It's a good call, and enough folks are using it to make it official.

Similarly with Sneak for rogues. Add Subterfuge rank to Damage if you attack following a successful Sneak (sub+DEX, or whatever applies in-game). I'll playtest some more tonight.

Talking of which, tonight is the playtest for my adventure. I'll let you know how it goes.

Same for the spell lists, as suggested by Meepo.

As to the races - I'm surprised that no one has commented at all on my definition of Dwarf, Elf and Halfling. I guess folks like their Elves clever, wise and magical (Tolkeinesque) rather than agile, unhealthy and kinda weedy looking (D&D). All I can say is GOOD! Heck, it's easy enough to change around, and fiddle with the numbers anyhow. And race creation is Dead Easy too - just try not to give more than a total of +2 away. +1/+1 to two stats, or even -1/+3 might be ok. Anything else becomes Rules Bloat, and we wouldn't want that  

On the Microlite20 Modern - I'd go with just saying that the rules are as per Microlite20, with the following changes. Saves for a lot of duplication and wasted space. 

Personally, I'd have gone for just renaming the classes (Fighter=Brawler, Rogue=Sneak, Cleric=Priest and Magi=Arcanist) and stopped there, but your version is inspired. I love it, especially in your treatment of Professions. It's more reminiscent of Call of Cthulhu d20 than the Obscene Monstrosity That Is D20 Modern (not that I'm biased or anything). I still don't like the whole Fast, Smart Hero thing, but I'll live with it. Action Points are too good to ignore too, so I'm glad you put them in.

All in, it's a great addition to the Microlite20 family. As you said, the formatting needs a little work, and I'd like to see some equipment in there, but you've got the groundwork down pat.

Bytor, a thousand thanks for the reformatted Microlite20 core. I did notice one minor layout flub - the line about poisons has a strange split in the middle. It's no biggie, so I'll upload it as is now, and it can be fixed later. I'll work the changes to Fighter, sneak attack for Rogue and a few words about spells in the near future to the full size doc and we can change it then. I've uploaded your version over mine at http://home.greywulf.net/m20/downloads.html.

Nothing new from me today; I'm going to run the Temple of K'thu'uk tonight and feedback tomorrow. If it goes well, I'll post it up for everyone then!

All the best, and keep it small!


----------



## MeepoDM

greywulf said:
			
		

> As to the races - I'm surprised that no one has commented at all on my definition of Dwarf, Elf and Halfling. I guess folks like their Elves clever, wise and magical (Tolkeinesque) rather than agile, unhealthy and kinda weedy looking (D&D). All I can say is GOOD! Heck, it's easy enough to change around, and fiddle with the numbers anyhow. And race creation is Dead Easy too - just try not to give more than a total of +2 away. +1/+1 to two stats, or even -1/+3 might be ok. Anything else becomes Rules Bloat, and we wouldn't want that




I'll bite.  I think the way you did races was nothing short of brilliant.  Honestly!  That was one of my pet peeves of D&D, keeping up with all the race abilities on top of the skill/feat/class abilities.  You've created a system that is not only more simple than Basic D&D, but really boils it all down to a single and logical stat change with a pinch of role-playing for flavor.  I've often thought of doing something similar.



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> Nothing new from me today; I'm going to run the Temple of K'thu'uk tonight and feedback tomorrow. If it goes well, I'll post it up for everyone then!




Can't wait to see it.  I'm holding off on my adventure because I want to see how the official one looks so I can steal its formatting for myself


----------



## MeepoDM

Sadrik said:
			
		

> Can I get a critique?




I'd love to give one, but honestly, I'm too big of a fan of the way the system sits now.  To many things were shaken up in your version for me to comment objectively.


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> There's no way I'm going to add in everyone's suggestions to Microlite20, though an UA-style pocketmod of House Rules will come round the corner sometime.
> 
> Sadrik; it's good to see the changes you've made, I'm glad you like it. I must admit, some of them aren't to my taste (Agility /and/ Athletics as a skill? Why?), but each to their own  Again, some of what you've done might find it's way into the House Rules .pdf. As to save DCs for spells - I like that they don't scale. Call me kooky, but I reckon 20th level Magi should be able to call down the thunder and all that anyone can do is run for cover, not make some dum-ass Reflex-save and still be in the same spot. High-level magic should be feared, not brushed away because of a good save. But hey, what do I know? Again, if you don't like it, change it - there'll probably be House Rules about this too, to suit every campagin level.




Now that we're an "official" RPG we need to be careful of feature creep.  I've seen too many systems fail because they tried to include too much.  As it stands we should try to keep Microlite20 as what it is, a fast, fun, lite system for teaching and playing one shots. 

I do love the idea of an UA suppliment.  It will be cool, as long as its compact like the rest of m20.  Two pages max 



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> I'm tempted to put Fighter getting +1 attack/damage at 1st, 5th then every five levels, into canon. It's a good call, and enough folks are using it to make it official.
> 
> Similarly with Sneak for rogues. Add Subterfuge rank to Damage if you attack following a successful Sneak (sub+DEX, or whatever applies in-game). I'll playtest some more tonight.




Let me know when you make these changes and I'll kick out the PocketMod.  I think we should include a rule on "Turning" too.  Something simple that doesn't require a lot of changes.  I was thinking aloung the lines of DC = 10 + Monsters HD like Darryl suggested.  Make the turning bonus based on cleric level maby?  Or even Cleric Level + Mind?




			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> All in, it's a great addition to the Microlite20 family. As you said, the formatting needs a little work, and I'd like to see some equipment in there, but you've got the groundwork down pat.




The formatting needs a lot of work in the m20 Modern.  I see a lot of redundancy and there is far too many classes.  I'd like to see this included as a suppliment to m20, rather than a fork of an already great system.




			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> Bytor, a thousand thanks for the reformatted Microlite20 core. I did notice one minor layout flub - the line about poisons has a strange split in the middle. It's no biggie, so I'll upload it as is now, and it can be fixed later. I'll work the changes to Fighter, sneak attack for Rogue and a few words about spells in the near future to the full size doc and we can change it then. I've uploaded your version over mine at http://home.greywulf.net/m20/downloads.html.




Crap.  I can't believe I missed that formatting error.  I worked that doc over for an hour!

Let me know when we fold in the new features for Fighter and Rogue and I'll kick out the new doc.


----------



## greywulf

Bytor, I agree. Modern should just add on to Microlite20 as a supplement, not duplicate anything. 

Don't worry about the formatting for the pocketbook just yet. I'm going to playtest the Sneak and Fighter rules tonight with my group. I'll add them in if we're happy then upload a new core. That'll probably be tomorrow.

Thanks, all - and thanks for the kind words bout my classes, Meepo. I'm glad little minds think alike


----------



## bytor4232

Let me know when you make these changes and I'll kick out the PocketMod. I've gotten pretty fast at it  

I think we should include a rule on "Turning" too. Something simple that doesn't require a lot of changes. I was thinking aloung the lines of DC = 10 + Monsters HD like Darryl suggested. Make the turning bonus based on cleric level maby? Or even Cleric Level + Mind?  

None of my players have ever turned anything, so my opinion is weak on the subject.


----------



## MeepoDM

I've been toying with the idea of making it work like a spell, with the "level cost" for HP's being the HD of the undead critter.  Namely because I didn't want to give the Cleric another (free) ability.

But that's as far as I've gotten.


----------



## bytor4232

FYI, I mentioned earlier that I played the game with my daughter.  She rolled up her own character, writing down the stats and assigning equipment, etc.  She did most of the work by herself, and she's only six.  That to me is a testament to the simplicity of the system.

I'm going to submit to game roleplayingtips.com later today.  I want to work out the exact details of the email I'm sending.  Any suggestions as to the wording?


----------



## greywulf

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> I think we should include a rule on "Turning" too. Something simple that doesn't require a lot of changes. I was thinking aloung the lines of DC = 10 + Monsters HD like Darryl suggested. Make the turning bonus based on cleric level maby? Or even Cleric Level + Mind?




I agree, we need something. My inclination is to make it a 1st level spell as that automatically limits the number of times a Cleric can turn stuff without adding in any new mechanics to the game. 

Either that, or a Cleric can Turn Undead a number of times per day equal to his 2 + Level + MIND bonus. I always thought it silly that a 20th level CHA-16 Cleric could only Turn Undead that same number of times as a 1st level CHA-16 Cleric unless they used a Feat slot.

Use Magic Attack (Level + MIND bonus) to attempt to turn. DC = critter's current Hit Points. Brandishing a Holy Symbol adds +4 to the Turn check. If the DC is exceeded by 10 the critter is destroyed.


----------



## greywulf

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> FYI, I mentioned earlier that I played the game with my daughter.  She rolled up her own character, writing down the stats and assigning equipment, etc.  She did most of the work by herself, and she's only six.  That to me is a testament to the simplicity of the system.
> 
> I'm going to submit to game roleplayingtips.com later today.  I want to work out the exact details of the email I'm sending.  Any suggestions as to the wording?




Cool! It's great that Microlite20 is working like this for you. Children have more imagination and ability to grasp stuff than any adult I know. My own 5 year old and 8 year old can run rings around me, so I'm glad you're introducing her to gaming. Keep up the good work 

I dunno what to suggest for the wording for roleplayingtips.com as I'm a bit too close and biased to offer a review. The only thing I can suggest is write about how it works for introducing gaming and it's a system designed to emphasise role-playing over and above rules-playing by cutting the rules down to the absolute minimum while still being able to use the resources of d20. That's what I'd do, anyhow; I'm sure you can think of something a lot better


----------



## MeepoDM

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> FYI, I mentioned earlier that I played the game with my daughter.  She rolled up her own character, writing down the stats and assigning equipment, etc.  She did most of the work by herself, and she's only six.  That to me is a testament to the simplicity of the system.




That's excellent!!!  I did read your post earlier (and was jealous) but I had no idea she was so young.  That is just amazing!  My oldest is 3, but I've already got him ID'ing monsters for me out of the Monster Manual.  So I'm lying down the groundwork for a future roleplayer, I hope


----------



## Bretbo

Congrats, Wulf, on the "being official" and all that.

OK, here is the updated, edited (a little bit, anyway) and layed out verison of Microlite20 Modern.  Enjoy.


----------



## greywulf

There you go. I've added in the rules for Fighter's attack and damage bonuses, Sneak attacks and Turn Undead to http://home.greywulf.net/files/Microlite20.pdf for your review. I know. I wasn't going to do this until tomorrow, but today was tomorrow yesterday, so I'm ok with that one. 

Please let me know what y'all think.

Bretbo, thanks for the update on the Modern. You've cut it down to just 2 pages in true Microlite20 style  I like.

I'd say that you could remove more by just saying 

"Stats, Races, Magic, Combat, Name and Starting Equipment, Other Hazards and Level Advancement are as per the Microlite20 Core Rules modified as appropriate for your campaign." 

at the start of the text. It's a small formating change that should free up enough room to add an Equipment list.

Also, there's no magic-wielding core class. How about using the same classes from the (revised) Core Doc above, but with only a +1 bonus to the skills. This means each class has something unique (better to-hit and damage, sneak attack, Turn Undead and spells) but it's the Occupations will dictate the bulk of the bonus skill ranks. I like that. Just rename the Base Classes from Core to something more Modern and you're done.

Just my thoughts 

Keep up the good work.


----------



## MeepoDM

greywulf said:
			
		

> I wasn't going to do this until tomorrow, but today was tomorrow yesterday, so I'm ok with that one.




You just blew my mind...


----------



## Sadrik

greywulf said:
			
		

> Sadrik; it's good to see the changes you've made, I'm glad you like it. I must admit, some of them aren't to my taste (Agility /and/ Athletics as a skill? Why?)



Well, my thought here was it really bothered me that the fighter got +3 to reflex and to fortitude. And the rogue got neither. But really that not a sticking point. 
The magic skill is a different matter. It should be there to shore up the special cases you have provided in your rules. Special rules are ok. They are even more ok in a very simple rpg but they are still special rules. So, after using your skill break down post. I extrapolated the magic skill along with how your will save worked to shore up those special rules.



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> Again, some of what you've done might find it's way into the House Rules .pdf.



Thanks.


			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> As to save DCs for spells - I like that they don't scale. Call me kooky, but I reckon 20th level Magi should be able to call down the thunder and all that anyone can do is run for cover, not make some dum-ass Reflex-save and still be in the same spot. High-level magic should be feared, not brushed away because of a good save. But hey, what do I know? Again, if you don't like it, change it - there'll probably be House Rules about this too, to suit every campagin level.



Conceptually I agree that a 20th level magi (why are you calling it a magi instead of a wizard?) should be able to, "Call down the thunder." So does that mean that you think the reflex save should be removed? Because as you have the rules right now they come no where near able to, "Call down the thunder." 

Example: say a 20th level wizard with a 20 MIND (+5) casts meteor swarm. His DC would be 10 + 9 (spell level) +5 or DC 24. He shoots bob the warrior with it. Bob the warrior is 15th level and he has a specialty in physical. So he has: 1d20 +18 + DEX. As you can see that easily outstrips the DC of the spell.

That is why I suggested the wizard's DC add like this:
10 + wizard level (20) + MIND (+5) = 35
At least that is a little more difficult for the fighter to deal with.

So, wizards dont bring the thunder. My save thing was to try and fix that.


----------



## DJCupboard

Greywulf, I like the idea of turning as a class ability (to match up with sneak attack and fighters' plusses) rather than as a spell.  Maybe to compensate, reduce their signature spell benefits (while keeping the mechanic in place for the reasons you originally cited), and increasing the Mage's signature spell benefits to bring them up with everyone else's extra abilities (maybe something that scales by level, as has been previously suggested [something like an aditional minus 1 hp per 5 levels, max cap Mind Mod]).



			
				Bretbo said:
			
		

> Congrats, Wulf, on the "being official" and all that.
> 
> OK, here is the updated, edited (a little bit, anyway) and layed out verison of Microlite20 Modern.  Enjoy.




Hate to be a stickler, but I really like this Modern expansion (eek!), so far.  The only problem I see is that there are rules for magic as per m20, but nobody to take advantage of them (EDIT: as greywulf pointed out while I was busy not posting this message), .  I'm leary of adding advanced classes that can use magic,as that gets way to far away from what microlite is supposed to do, but at the same time, I think professions that gain access would rediculously overpower the other professions.  In the vein of  that _other_ Modern, I think magic should be secret and out of the hands of starting characters, so maybe items that grant limited spellcasting, or something (EDIT: Like a book that gives access to spellcasting equal to half or third of your Hero level as a Mage or Cleric but reduces something else about you [a stat, skill ranks, etc.])


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> Bretbo, thanks for the update on the Modern. You've cut it down to just 2 pages in true Microlite20 style  I like.
> 
> I'd say that you could remove more by just saying
> 
> "Stats, Races, Magic, Combat, Name and Starting Equipment, Other Hazards and Level Advancement are as per the Microlite20 Core Rules modified as appropriate for your campaign."
> 
> at the start of the text. It's a small formating change that should free up enough room to add an Equipment list.




The main equipment your going to need is firearms.  I can't think of anything else thats "necessary" in the context of Microlite20.



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> Also, there's no magic-wielding core class. How about using the same classes from the (revised) Core Doc above, but with only a +1 bonus to the skills. This means each class has something unique (better to-hit and damage, sneak attack, Turn Undead and spells) but it's the Occupations will dictate the bulk of the bonus skill ranks. I like that. Just rename the Base Classes from Core to something more Modern and you're done.




I don't believe there should be a magic wielding core class, nor a divine wielding core class either.  If someone wants a "priest" then have them do cleric from the core.  Same with mages.  Most people playing Microlite20 Modern will be looking to shoot things up, or play 007, if you catch my drift.



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> There you go. I've added in the rules for Fighter's attack and damage bonuses, Sneak attacks and Turn Undead to http://home.greywulf.net/files/Microlite20.pdf for your review. I know. I wasn't going to do this until tomorrow, but today was tomorrow yesterday, so I'm ok with that one.
> 
> Please let me know what y'all think.




I like it!  If this is official, I'll process a pocketmod.


----------



## MeepoDM

DJCupboard said:
			
		

> Greywulf, I like the idea of turning as a class ability (to match up with sneak attack and fighters' plusses) rather than as a spell.




Ideally, I would too.  However in this case, I like the idea of it acting as a spell more.  Giving the Cleric another ability (on top of access to decent armor & weapons + unlimited spellcasting) could potentially throw out the Class Balance as it stands currently.  IMO, of course.


----------



## bytor4232

Bretbo said:
			
		

> Congrats, Wulf, on the "being official" and all that.
> 
> OK, here is the updated, edited (a little bit, anyway) and layed out verison of Microlite20 Modern.  Enjoy.




Firearms and other modern equipment are missing.  Other than that, it looks REALLY tasty.

My Suggestions:
1. Take out all the parts where it refrences Microlite20 Core, and say that once.
2. Put in a modern equipment list.  Most important is Firearms.

Get me the RTF and I'll process it into a PocketMod for ya!


----------



## Sadrik

I agree feature creep is unneeded for this game. But further simplification or definition is _definitely _wanted/needed.

Weapons
Unarmed weapon: d4 (dagger, spiked gauntlet)
Light weapon: d6 (short sword, rapier, saber, scimitar, light mace, club)
Medium weapon: d8 (longsword, battle axe, warhammer, morning star)
Heavy weapon: d10 (bastard sword, war axe, war club, heavy mace)
Great weapon: d12 (greatclub, great sword, great axe)

Light ranged weapon: d4 (sling, hand crossbow)
Medium ranged weapon: d6 (short bow, crossbow)
Heavy ranged weapon: d8 (longbow, heavy crossbow)

This should be in these game rules.

No specific weapons that bog down and have special cases.

short sword is fundamentally just a light weapon that does 1d6. How you describe the weapon is up to the player or DM.

Armor 
Light armor: +2 AC (leather, studded leather, chain shirt)
Medium armor: +5 AC (chain mail, breast plate)
Heavy armor: +8 AC (plate mail, banded mail, splint mail)
Shield: +2 AC (covers all shields)


----------



## MeepoDM

Sadrik said:
			
		

> I agree feature creep is unneeded for this game. But further simplification or definition is _definitely _wanted/needed.
> 
> Weapons
> Unarmed weapon: d4 (dagger, spiked gauntlet)
> Light weapon: d6 (short sword, rapier, saber, scimitar, light mace, club)
> Medium weapon: d8 (longsword, battle axe, warhammer, morning star)
> Heavy weapon: d10 (bastard sword, war axe, war club, heavy mace)
> Great weapon: d12 (greatclub, great sword, great axe)
> 
> Light ranged weapon: d4 (sling, hand crossbow)
> Medium ranged weapon: d6 (short bow, crossbow)
> Heavy ranged weapon: d8 (longbow, heavy crossbow)
> 
> This should be in these game rules.
> 
> No specific weapons that bog down and have special cases.
> 
> short sword is fundamentally just a light weapon that does 1d6. How you describe the weapon is up to the player or DM.
> 
> Armor
> Light armor: +2 AC (leather, studded leather, chain shirt)
> Medium armor: +5 AC (chain mail, breast plate)
> Heavy armor: +8 AC (plate mail, banded mail, splint mail)
> Shield: +2 AC (covers all shields)




OK, I _seriously_ like this idea!!  Removing the critical ranges on the weapons list made many of them obsolete.  This system really sums 'em up nicely and leaves the weapon choices a matter of visualization over what has the biggest dice for damage.  The summary of armor is excellent as well, since removing skill penalties did the same thing.

Consider this *YOINKED*!


----------



## bytor4232

Sadrik said:
			
		

> I agree feature creep is unneeded for this game. But further simplification or definition is _definitely _wanted/needed.
> 
> Weapons
> Unarmed weapon: d4 (dagger, spiked gauntlet)
> Light weapon: d6 (short sword, rapier, saber, scimitar, light mace, club)
> Medium weapon: d8 (longsword, battle axe, warhammer, morning star)
> Heavy weapon: d10 (bastard sword, war axe, war club, heavy mace)
> Great weapon: d12 (greatclub, great sword, great axe)
> 
> Light ranged weapon: d4 (sling, hand crossbow)
> Medium ranged weapon: d6 (short bow, crossbow)
> Heavy ranged weapon: d8 (longbow, heavy crossbow)
> 
> This should be in these game rules.
> 
> No specific weapons that bog down and have special cases.
> 
> short sword is fundamentally just a light weapon that does 1d6. How you describe the weapon is up to the player or DM.




I really like your idea!  This could be folded into the main game, maby?  I don't think it would fit into the PocketMod, but I could try.



			
				Sadrik said:
			
		

> Armor
> Light armor: +2 AC (leather, studded leather, chain shirt)
> Medium armor: +5 AC (chain mail, breast plate)
> Heavy armor: +8 AC (plate mail, banded mail, splint mail)
> Shield: +2 AC (covers all shields)




One suggestion would be to split the shields into Shield and Heavy Shield.  Make the Shield +1 and the Heavy Shield +2.


----------



## MeepoDM

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> One suggestion would be to split the shields into Shield and Heavy Shield.  Make the Shield +1 and the Heavy Shield +2.




Another great idea!


----------



## Sadrik

Modern Weapons in the same format as my previous post

Modern Weapons
Light pistol 1d8
Heavy pistol 1d10
Light rifle 1d10
Heavy rifle 1d12
Shotgun 3d6
Light submachine gun 1d8
Heavy submachine gun 1d10
Light machine gun 1d10
Heavy machine gun 1d12
Grenade 3d6
Bomb 4d6+

Sci-fi Weapons
Light energy pistol 2d6
Heavy energy pistol 3d6
Light energy rifle 3d6
Heavy energy rifle 4d6
Light energy submachine gun 2d6
Heavy energy submachine gun 3d6
Light energy machine gun 3d6
Heavy energy machine gun 4d6
Energy grenade 5d6
Energy bomb 6d6+


----------



## greywulf

Sadrik said:
			
		

> That is why I suggested the wizard's DC add like this:
> 10 + wizard level (20) + MIND (+5) = 35
> At least that is a little more difficult for the fighter to deal with.




Ah. I see - we're both agreeing about the same thing  That's what I do automatically, and have done since D&D came out. You're right. I /really/ need that spelled out (pardon the pun) in Microlite20. Save DC for all spells is 10 + CASTER LEVEL + MIND. Yep. We agree. Totally.

The simplified weapon stats are excellent. I'll put the fantasy weapons into Core and you drop the Modern/Sci-Fi into Microlite20 Modern. I'll include Shields/Heavy Shields as +1 and +2 AC resp.

Meepo, I agree about Clerics getting a too much of a good deal if we include Turn Undead as another ability. The more I think about it the more I'm inclined to make it cost HP as per a spell rather than having a number of "free" uses per day. As I originally planned. Gah!  Again, it ties in with M20's philosophy of choice too. Do you want lots of Turn Undead, lots of spells or lots of HP. Choices, choices.........

Right. I'm off to game. See y'all laters.


----------



## kroh

Man you guys think of everything!  This is probably one of the best grass roots projects I have seen in a while.  Now all that is left is to translate this into other languages.  I am currently working on the Canadian Version!

Regards, 
Walt


----------



## greywulf

kroh said:
			
		

> Man you guys think of everything!  This is probably one of the best grass roots projects I have seen in a while.  Now all that is left is to translate this into other languages.  I am currently working on the Canadian Version!




That's easy. Take out the Combat section.

/runs and ducks!


----------



## Sadrik

So, my fighter weapon specialization ability allows the fighter to use heavy weapons in 1 hand and also gives them the ability to use great weapons. Other classes use heavy weapons as their 2-handed weapons. It gives the warrior a nice little boost equipment wise. Because personally I dont like the +1 to attack and damage every 5 levels.

Also, if you want to simplify further. Use the Physical skill as BAB then the warrior gets a nice _fat_ +3 to hit from the get go. Add STR for melee, DEX for ranged combat, and MIND for magic attacks. Extremely simple and further defines and like I said it also simplifies. No need to explain BAB, just make a physical skill check.

(Of course in my version, I will use athletics skill to hit for melee and agility skill to hit for ranged. This will make rogues excellent ranged attack combatants.) 

Using this rule, makes me want to go back to just the physical skill and drop agility and athletics.


----------



## kroh

greywulf said:
			
		

> That's easy. Take out the Combat section.
> 
> /runs and ducks!




Tee Hee...ahem...ahem...I mean that was bad!

Regards, 
Walt


----------



## MeepoDM

...


----------



## Sadrik

I think you guys should go back and look at my .pdf. All these ideas are in there plus others. I think when I explain them all they make more sense.

On that note: fighting with two weapons should be the choice of the combatant. And not allowable for only rogues and fighters. I can totally envision a wizard wanting to fight with both ends of his staff. And the DM tells the player, "You cant do that?" Player says, "Why" DM says, "Because its in the rules????" Drop that blurb. 

Along the same lines the weapon finesse for rogues and fighters  should also go.


----------



## Sadrik

Alright I am changing agility and athletics back to physical: with the following change: subterfuge will pick up the reflex save. I dont know why I didnt think of this before.

I am still keeping the magic skill though. To shore up the special rules.


----------



## Baumi

About the small Weapon/Armor Idea ... I really like it 8D

Anyway I think there should be only three Weapon Categories:

Light (d6): good for two-Weapon Actions and easy to hide
Medium (d8): Swords and stuff ... still allows you to use a shield
Great (d12): Two Handed Weapons ... no Shield or second Weapon

I didn't see any reason for the heavy Weapons or did I overlook something?


----------



## MeepoDM

My guess was Heavy Weapons = Two-handed?  Also, being a purist, keep the swords out of the Clerics hands, please!


----------



## Gentlegamer

Sadrik said:
			
		

> I agree feature creep is unneeded for this game. But further simplification or definition is _definitely _wanted/needed.
> 
> Weapons
> Unarmed weapon: d4 (dagger, spiked gauntlet)
> Light weapon: d6 (short sword, rapier, saber, scimitar, light mace, club)
> Medium weapon: d8 (longsword, battle axe, warhammer, morning star)
> Heavy weapon: d10 (bastard sword, war axe, war club, heavy mace)
> Great weapon: d12 (greatclub, great sword, great axe)
> 
> Light ranged weapon: d4 (sling, hand crossbow)
> Medium ranged weapon: d6 (short bow, crossbow)
> Heavy ranged weapon: d8 (longbow, heavy crossbow)
> 
> This should be in these game rules.



I'd go even further and make all weapons use the same die and general range of damage, similar to _Lejendary Adventure_. Perhaps the die used is determined by the attacker's size, rather than weapon type.

Small: d6
Medium (man-sized): d8
Large: d10
etc

Individual weapons could add a bonus to the damage based on type or use.


----------



## Sadrik

Baumi said:
			
		

> I didn't see any reason for the heavy Weapons or did I overlook something?



Heavy weapons are for my fighter ability. Weapon specialization ability allows the fighter to use heavy weapons in 1 hand and also gives them the ability to use great weapons. Other classes use heavy weapons as their 2-handed weapons. It gives the warrior a nice little boost equipment wise and is comparable to a fighter taking exotic weapon feat. Along with the physical skill = BAB. This gives the fighter both a bonus to hit and the potential for extra damage.

Also a note on weapons:
Double weapons would just be two light weapons stuck on the same weapons.
qaurterstaff, 2 bladed sword, double axe etc. all do d6/d6.

I dont like the size of the creature as base damage. because it steps away from d20. It is basically the same here though. strength is a flat bonus and the weapon is a random roll. In Lej Adv it is str random and weapon flat bonus. That is not needed here.


----------



## Darrell

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> Ideally, I would too.  However in this case, I like the idea of it acting as a spell more.  Giving the Cleric another ability (on top of access to decent armor & weapons + unlimited spellcasting) could potentially throw out the Class Balance as it stands currently.  IMO, of course.




Personally, I prefer it as an ability; but not one exclusive to clerics.  I made it an ability tied to belief in a deity.  You have to believe, and you have to have a holy symbol.  If you meet both those qualities, regardless of class, you can Turn Undead...as long as you're on good terms with the church.  Violate one of your deity's edicts, act against your religion's beliefs, and your god yanks your ability to Turn until you gain absolution from/make restitution to the church.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## Darrell

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> OK, I _seriously_ like this idea!!  Removing the critical ranges on the weapons list made many of them obsolete.  This system really sums 'em up nicely and leaves the weapon choices a matter of visualization over what has the biggest dice for damage.  The summary of armor is excellent as well, since removing skill penalties did the same thing.




It's an interesting take, but ranges (weapon/distance ranges, not crit ranges) are needed for ranged weapons.   Maybe something like a full damage up to x ft., half damage at up to twice that distance, no damage beyond that distance.

I also like the idea of the +1/+2 shield variance. (Although tower shields might need to be taken into consideration.  There's a bit of a difference between a shield strapped to your arm and a portable metal wall.)

This would make things a lot simpler, and the equipment list could become, basically, a price list only...allowing it to be made smaller, of course.   

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## bytor4232

Darrell said:
			
		

> It's an interesting take, but ranges (weapon/distance ranges, not crit ranges) are needed for ranged weapons.   Maybe something like a full damage up to x ft., half damage at up to twice that distance, no damage beyond that distance.
> 
> I also like the idea of the +1/+2 shield variance.
> 
> This would make things a lot simpler, and the equipment list could become, basically, a price list only...allowing it to be made smaller, of course.
> 
> Regards,
> Darrell







			
				Gentlegamer said:
			
		

> I'd go even further and make all weapons use the same die and general range of damage, similar to _Lejendary Adventure_. Perhaps the die used is determined by the attacker's size, rather than weapon type.
> 
> Small: d6
> Medium (man-sized): d8
> Large: d10
> etc
> 
> Individual weapons could add a bonus to the damage based on type or use.





Actually,  thought about it, and this would defeat the purpose of Microlite20 being compatible with the d20 SRD.  If we start varying too much, m20 will become something that its not meant to be.  We should keep it as compatible with the primary SRD as possible.  

Its a great idea, but I think its crossing the line.


----------



## Darrell

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> Actually,  thought about it, and this would defeat the purpose of Microlite20 being compatible with the d20 SRD.  If we start varying too much, m20 will become something that its not meant to be.  We should keep it as compatible with the primary SRD as possible.
> 
> Its a great idea, but I think its crossing the line.




I was just kinda thinkin' the same thing.  The more we change from the d20 standard, the harder it will be to use d20/D&D material for gaming without hefty re-working.  

The primary charm of m20 is that I can take our ruleset and pretty much use anything from WotC or the better 3rd-party publishers in my game while converting critter stats and everything on the fly.

If I'm gonna have to start in with heavy conversion, I might as well stick to D&D.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## Sadrik

Darrell said:
			
		

> It's an interesting take, but ranges (weapon/distance ranges, not crit ranges) are needed for ranged weapons.   Maybe something like a full damage up to x ft., half damage at up to twice that distance, no damage beyond that distance.



Light ranged weapon: d4 (sling, hand crossbow) 10' ranged increment
Medium ranged weapon: d6 (short bow, crossbow) 20' ranged increment
Heavy ranged weapon: d8 (longbow, heavy crossbow) 30' ranged increment

Take -2 to hit for every range increment past the first.

Should weapons add str to damage? It should be simple. Yes or no without special bows etc. If they do that really hoses projectile weapons.

I suggest virtual strength for projectile weapons.
crossbow: 16 str (+3)
Poor firearm: 20 (+5)
Good firearm: 24 (+7)
Energy weapons: none...

Probably have to lower my modern weapons by a step or two to implement this rule. 

It is a little complex. it might be easier to just say no ranged weapons add str to damage (even hurled weapons?).


----------



## MeepoDM

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> Actually,  thought about it, and this would defeat the purpose of Microlite20 being compatible with the d20 SRD.  If we start varying too much, m20 will become something that its not meant to be.  We should keep it as compatible with the primary SRD as possible.
> 
> Its a great idea, but I think its crossing the line.




On that note, without adding back in critical ranges, what makes one weapon different from another?  Why use a Scimitar when a Longsword (same cost, same class of weapon, but better damage) is better?  Should criticals be put back in?  Does it matter at all?

This "Class" based damage (in a sense) kind of fixes that problem.  Otherwise every Shield armed Fighter might as well just buy a Dwarven Waraxe until they find a Magical Weapon.  It's more "house-ruley" than SRD, but does it disrupt things much?


----------



## bytor4232

If it were up to me, I would leave the equipment as is.  I want to stay as close to D&D as possible, and like Darryl said, if you get too many rules or change too much stuff, you might as well stay with D&D.


----------



## MeepoDM

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> If it were up to me, I would leave the equipment as is.  I want to stay as close to D&D as possible, and like Darryl said, if you get too many rules or change too much stuff, you might as well stay with D&D.




When you say "as is", do you mean per the PHB/SRD or the M20 Equipment list?


----------



## bytor4232

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> When you say "as is", do you mean per the PHB/SRD or the M20 Equipment list?




The m20 Equipment list.  Thats taken directly from the d20 SRD, I do believe.


----------



## MeepoDM

It is, but the Critical Hit system was changed to a straight out 20/max damage instead of a variable system (18-20/x3 etc.) making all weapons useful in their own respects.  So things have been changed already.


----------



## Darrell

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> On that note, without adding back in critical ranges, what makes one weapon different from another?  Why use a Scimitar when a Longsword (same cost, same class of weapon, but better damage) is better?  Should criticals be put back in?  Does it matter at all?
> 
> This "Class" based damage (in a sense) kind of fixes that problem.  Otherwise every Shield armed Fighter might as well just buy a Dwarven Waraxe until they find a Magical Weapon.  It's more "house-ruley" than SRD, but does it disrupt things much?




In my game, I _have_ put d20 crits back in (well...to an extent--see my 'house rules' document earlier in the thread for details).  I just prefer a natural 20 being a _possible_ critical, rather than it being automatic.

Why use a scimitar when you can use a longsword?  I don't know.  Maybe you can't use a longsword. Maybe the 'longsword,' as such, doesn't exist in your world.  Who's to say every weapon in the list has to exist in your game?  Or, maybe the scimitar is just more common, and you can't find a longsword in the area your character lives in.  If you're gonna run a campaign with an 'Arabian Adventures' theme, the scimitar may well be a weapon of choice.  (It's equally possible that the Dwarven Waraxe your human fighter just bought amounts to a 'kick me' sign in the hands of a non-dwarf.)  I've always looked at the D&D/d20 Equipment Lists as suggestions, not hard-and-fast rules.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## Darrell

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> The m20 Equipment list.  Thats taken directly from the d20 SRD, I do believe.




Yep.    

Taken from d20 and trimmed down (much like greywulf's original m20 document began).

That's the underlying beauty of m20.  It's the game we've been playing all along, just simpler.

Regards,
Darrell

By the way...this thread is now 9 pages long.  That's longer than m20 and all its supplements combined (not countin' the Modern stuff).


----------



## Bretbo

Love the ideas folks are throwing around for Modern.  Here's what I'll do:

I purposely left out magic to keep the base "real world."  Folks could do like One-Page Supplements for "non-real" world campaigns (like Shadow Chasers or a home-brew version of Urban Arcana) and such that adds on Races, Magic, and Monsters (notice they where left out also).  I think what I'll do is add-on a paragraph on how to incorporate magic-using Occupations.  I'm working on a seperate Menances supplement and will add-in monsters from the SRD there.

The idea for saving room by having one paragraph saying what remains the same as Core Rules is a good idea.  Also allows for adding in material like mentioned above.

And I'll certainly add a weapons list.  I think I'll do something like what Sadrik suggests and keep it within Modern SRD as much as possible.

I'll update again and post it soon.


----------



## MeepoDM

My only point was that the _true_ SRD weapon lists, with variable stats for Critical Hits, offers different reasons for any weapon to be used.  Personally, I could care less, but I can see it making a big deal for some folks.  I'm used to OD&D where all weapons do 1d6, period, so the m20 list as it stands currently is no big deal and I'll continue to use it as such unless Greywulf decides to change it.


----------



## Sadrik

I think the simplified weapons list in no way limits the playability. It is definitely not a conversion nightmare- where you might as well play d&d core. But I would suggest using this for the base game and then adding the more detailed weapons rules to the UA supplement.

Weapon costs can be listed at minimum costs.
Melee Weapons
Unarmed: d4 1gp
Light: d6 5gp
Medium: d8 15gp
Heavy: d10 25gp
Great: d12 50gp
Ranged weapons
Light: d8 R 10' 15gp
Medium: d10 R 20' 25gp
Heavy: d12 R 30' 50gp
Armor
Light: +2 AC 10gp
Medium: +5 AC 100gp
Heavy: +8 AC 1000gp
Shield
Light: +1 AC 15gp
Heavy: +2 AC 25gp

(note: I upped the ranged weapon damage because they never add a str bonus)


----------



## DJCupboard

While I am a fan of keeping the equipment list as pulled from the srd, the thing to remember about the simplified versions of weapons in terms of what makes a scimitar "worth it" compared to any other similarly classed weapon, is that the answer is, "nothing."  It becomes a purely RPing destinction (like whats the difference between any 2 m20 3rd level fighters with 18 str), which I think nicely fits with the theme of the m20 endeavor.  However I think the other goal of d20/srd compatability is the better goal to strive for, in this case.

DJC


----------



## bytor4232

Sadrik said:
			
		

> I think the simplified weapons list in no way limits the playability. It is definitely not a conversion nightmare- where you might as well play d&d core. But I would suggest using this for the base game and then adding the more detailed weapons rules to the UA supplement.
> ...... cut




I like where your going, however I still have to disagree with you.  Microlite20 needs to keep its boundries, and I think this is simply going a little beyond said boundries.

Besides, the core game already has as much crammed into it as we can possibly put in it, and still keep it under two pages.  Plus, I can't fit any more information onto the PocketMod version.  

if it were up to me, I would keep the system as it is, with Greywulf's modifications for turning and sneak attacks put in.  Everything else needs to be in the UA document.


----------



## bytor4232

Oh a lighter note, I present to you the Microlite version of The Tomb of Mighty Madness!.  This is the SRD adventures I presented a few days ago, "Microlited".  Stats have been updated to support m20.

I didn't include any hooks with this adventure, sorry.  I'm sure raiding an undead tomb speaks for itself


----------



## MeepoDM

I agree.


----------



## MeepoDM

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> Oh a lighter note, I present to you the Microlite version of The Tomb of Mighty Madness!.  This is the SRD adventures I presented a few days ago, "Microlited".  Stats have been updated to support m20.
> 
> I didn't include any hooks with this adventure, sorry.  I'm sure raiding an undead tomb speaks for itself





Any room for the EL's to be added to each room?  For ease of adding up XP at the end.


----------



## Darrell

Bretbo said:
			
		

> I purposely left out magic to keep the base "real world."  Folks could do like One-Page Supplements for "non-real" world campaigns (like Shadow Chasers or a home-brew version of Urban Arcana) and such that adds on Races, Magic, and Monsters (notice they where left out also).  I think what I'll do is add-on a paragraph on how to incorporate magic-using Occupations.  I'm working on a seperate Menances supplement and will add-in monsters from the SRD there.




I really think this is the best way to handle it for m20 Modern.  A baseline game that can be used for 'normal' modern roleplaying, and a supplement or two to handle extranormal/paranormal subjects.  That way, the game could be used for 'spy' games and such without having to work around a magic/monster aspect in the core game; then, if someone wanted to run a 'DarkMatter'-ish, 'Shadow Chasers'-ish, or some such game, they could add in the supplemental material.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## Sadrik

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> I like where your going, however I still have to disagree with you.  Microlite20 needs to keep its boundries, and I think this is simply going a little beyond said boundries.
> 
> Besides, the core game already has as much crammed into it as we can possibly put in it, and still keep it under two pages.  Plus, I can't fit any more information onto the PocketMod version.
> 
> if it were up to me, I would keep the system as it is, with Greywulf's modifications for turning and sneak attacks put in.  Everything else needs to be in the UA document.



Can I ask then how you and Darrel are dealing with the special rules of weapons?
Some specifics:
exotic weapons namely war axe and bastard sword.
some weapons give bonuses to trip etc.
mighty bows.
There is a lot of minutia there. I think a lot of that could get washed away with the simplified weapon chart. No need to write a specific line into the rules about the rapier exception. It is a light weapon period.


----------



## bytor4232

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> Any room for the EL's to be added to each room?  For ease of adding up XP at the end.




I'll consider it, but thats an aweful lot of math.  I really don't like math.


----------



## Darrell

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> I like where your going, however I still have to disagree with you.  Microlite20 needs to keep its boundries, and I think this is simply going a little beyond said boundries.




I kind of hate to agree, because I really like where Sadrik is taking the simplicity of weapons, but I'm going to have to.  It is (IMO) too much of a departure from the SRD.



			
				bytor4232 said:
			
		

> Besides, the core game already has as much crammed into it as we can possibly put in it, and still keep it under two pages.  Plus, I can't fit any more information onto the PocketMod version.




 



			
				bytor4232 said:
			
		

> if it were up to me, I would keep the system as it is, with Greywulf's modifications for turning and sneak attacks put in.  Everything else needs to be in the UA document.




Yeah, I think so.  Even though I prefer my own 'Turning,' I think I'm going to go with greywulf's take, simply to keep everything in my game in line with 'core' m20.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## MeepoDM

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> I'll consider it, but thats an aweful lot of math.  I really don't like math.




I would.  Since the core m20 rules only use EL's for XP gain!


----------



## bytor4232

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> I would.  Since the core m20 rules only use EL's for XP gain!




Of course, theres nothing stopping you from totaling it up yourself   Seriously, that would take me like an hour to do with a spreadsheet.  If I do it, the task will no be one I'll run home and joyously take care of.

like I said, I'll consider it.  Fonkin the Gnome is a lost cause, I deleted the source HTML that generated that dungeon.  I still have the source for The Tomb of Mighty Madness thou.


----------



## MeepoDM

Just sayin'     EL's are pretty important to M20, after all.  Math, smath - estimation is everyones friend!


----------



## Darrell

Sadrik said:
			
		

> Can I ask then how you and Darrel are dealing with the special rules of weapons?




Speaking for myself, by ignoring them for the most part.  For my game, all information concerning the weapon is listed in the m20 Equipment List.  There may be a magical +1 (to hit & damage) axe, or a flaming longsword that does longsword damage plus an extra 1dwhatever fire damage, but that's about it with regard to 'special rules.'



			
				Sadrik said:
			
		

> Some specifics:
> exotic weapons namely war axe and bastard sword.




In the m20 Equipment List, the dwarven waraxe and the bastard sword are one-handed weapons that deal 1d10 damage.



			
				Sadrik said:
			
		

> some weapons give bonuses to trip etc.




No bonuses to trip were included in the m20 Euipment List.  Complex bonuses were one of the first things I jettisoned.  The only factors necessary to run any weapons in the m20 Equipment list are size, price, damage, and (in the case of ranged weapons) range.  These are all included in the list, and match the d20 SRD for compatibility.



			
				Sadrik said:
			
		

> mighty bows.




Mighty bows are not included in the m20 Equipment List, as they were not in the d20 SRD Equipment Lists.  In fact, as I've never even had one used in a D&D campaign, I'm not even completely sure what a 'mighty' bow might be.  Whatever its bonus may be, I'd be inclined to ignore it.



			
				Sadrik said:
			
		

> There is a lot of minutia there. I think a lot of that could get washed away with the simplified weapon chart.




I think a lot of it has been washed away already.  My own goal in gaming, in fact, is to 'wash over' any and all combat as rapidly as possible.  Combat in m20 goes fast enough to get it over with in short order, but slow enough that the players feel they've actually accomplished something.  



			
				Sadrik said:
			
		

> No need to write a specific line into the rules about the rapier exception. It is a light weapon period.




I quite agree.  I generally ignore that line in the m20 rules (and may, in fact, have stricken it from my house rules...I don't have a copy to hand to check).

For what it's worth, I really like your weapon simplification.  I just think it diverges too far from the d20 SRD to meet the goals we were setting with m20.  If we were to try to create a game which wasn't as concerned with maintaining the level of core d20-compatible playablity, I'd rather go by your chart.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## bytor4232

Darrell said:
			
		

> For what it's worth, I really like your weapon simplification.  I just think it diverges too far from the d20 SRD to meet the goals we were setting with m20.  If we were to try to create a game which wasn't as concerned with maintaining the level of core d20-compatible playablity, I'd rather go by your chart.




I completely and utterly agree.  I think its a terrific idea, but it crosses the line set with Microlite20.


----------



## MeepoDM

Ditto's.


----------



## bytor4232

If you guys want to watch a play by post game I'm running with Microlite20, check it out here:

http://www.dndonlinegames.com/showthread.php?t=49957

Its a publicly viewable game, so anyone can watch it.  I'm about to run my first combat.


----------



## MeepoDM

Since we kind of found our way around to EL's, I was wondering about this:

Encounter Level = Hit Dice of defeated monsters, +2 for each doubling of the number of foes.

Does this mean a room with 4 Kobolds in it has an EL 5?  This is more than an Ogre, but I can tell you who I'd rather meet in a dark room.


----------



## greywulf

This is me, mid game. The adventure is going swimmingly and my players have come up with some great ideas. I'll cover them another time though. Oh, and they SERIOUSLY hate kobolds 

The new class mods have gone down well, but we're still not satisfied with the Cleric's Turn Undead ability. Can't decide between it being a spell (or spell-like thingummy) or a special ability usable a certain number of times per day. Or something else.

I'm putting that to the vote.

On the equipment thing, I'm going to put simplified weapon damages into the Microlite20 UA; You've persuaded me that sticking with d20 standard damage levels is a better thing to have in Core. It also keeps those monsters-with-weapons from existing adventures and Monster Manuals on the same playing field. 

As regards the question of why someone would use a scimitar instead of the (far superior) Longsword, the answer is simple: IT FITS THE CHARACTER CONCEPT. Nothing, nada, not a thing else matters. Heck if my character wanted to kill people with a spoon, I'd do it if it fitted the concept. Screw rules optimisation; in Microlite20, there aren't enough rules to optimise. That's kinda the whole idea.

Oh, and Mark's got a name for the House Rules supplement: The Microlite20 Macropedia! Yay!

More later. On to the second half of the game..........


----------



## Darrell

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> Since we kind of found our way around to EL's, I was wondering about this:
> 
> Encounter Level = Hit Dice of defeated monsters, +2 for each doubling of the number of foes.
> 
> Does this mean a room with 4 Kobolds in it has an EL 5?  This is more than an Ogre, but I can tell you who I'd rather meet in a dark room.




I've kinda been thinking about that, too.  It hasn't been a pressing issue, because I'm the only one who keeps track of 'experience' for my group, so if they have a cake-walk, they don't advance as fast as they do if they fight tougher opponents.  Indeed, I tend to think along the lines of the poster earlier (was it Sadrik, maybe?) who mentioned level advancement by game session (maybe something like 2-3 sessions per level).

Heh.  Just to be random, you could roll for it...say 1d4+1 game sessions per level.    

Regards, Darrell


----------



## Sadrik

Fair enough.

I am not married to the idea of the simple weapon chart. But I would like to point out that the argument- it (or any other idea) diverges too far from the SRD is just well... kind of funny with spells damaging the caster, three stats, hp being str + 1d6/level, 0 level spells having the same DC to resist as 9th level spells. All of which are by far more damaging to the SRD rules-wise than simplifying the weapons. All being said and done I approve of all of the changes. Please though.

I dont mean to come off as rules picky. I am just a rules guy who loves to come up with rules. Especially if they consolidate or make play easier. Eliminating special rules/cases is the name of the game. M20 does that in a major way and Ill totally carry the torch for it.

Now as for other rules I think could be better:
Monsters are a total mess.
They need to have their stats written out. (Edit: in case for an opposed check)
They need to use the same HP formula characters do.
And HP in general should not be 1d6/ level. Something like:







> Monster hit points are determined by multiplying the HD by 2 (delicate), 3 (average), 4 (tough), 5 (no anatomy) then add the creatures STR score.



EL should be: EL = highest HD, +1 per doubling of the number of foes.

The way it was before you could have 2 goblins being EL 3! After my change from +2 to +1 per double,  two goblins will be EL 2, four would be EL 3 and eight would be EL 4.


----------



## Sadrik

That is funny that I just brought up the same thing in my post!

But that is only one of the problems in the monster section.


----------



## Darrell

greywulf said:
			
		

> The new class mods have gone down well, but we're still not satisfied with the Cleric's Turn Undead ability. Can't decide between it being a spell (or spell-like thingummy) or a special ability usable a certain number of times per day. Or something else.
> 
> I'm putting that to the vote.




Well, my vote goes to ability.  I'd prefer it not to be restricted to clerics, but we're going for d20 compatibility, so there ya go.



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> On the equipment thing, I'm going to put simplified weapon damages into the Microlite20 UA; You've persuaded me that sticking with d20 standard damage levels is a better thing to have in Core. It also keeps those monsters-with-weapons from existing adventures and Monster Manuals on the same playing field.




I think that's best.  I think giving the option of Sadrik's simplification is optimal (because I _really_ like it) but the more SRD compatible system should be in Core m20.



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> As regards the question of why someone would use a scimitar instead of the (far superior) Longsword, the answer is simple: IT FITS THE CHARACTER CONCEPT. Nothing, nada, not a thing else matters. Heck if my character wanted to kill people with a spoon, I'd do it if it fitted the concept. Screw rules optimisation; in Microlite20, there aren't enough rules to optimise. That's kinda the whole idea.




Seconded.    



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> Oh, and Mark's got a name for the House Rules supplement: The Microlite20 Macropedia!




  I like it!   

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## greywulf

Darrell said:
			
		

> I've kinda been thinking about that, too.  It hasn't been a pressing issue, because I'm the only one who keeps track of 'experience' for my group, so if they have a cake-walk, they don't advance as fast as they do if they fight tougher opponents.  Indeed, I tend to think along the lines of the poster earlier (was it Sadrik, maybe?) who mentioned level advancement by game session (maybe something like 2-3 sessions per level).
> 
> Heh.  Just to be random, you could roll for it...say 1d4+1 game sessions per level.
> 
> Regards, Darrell




I shouldn't have hit refresh 

I've set 4 kobols are EL3 as figuring a kobold is really only 1/2 an EL on his own.

I don't like ELs as they stand either. That's probably the last thing I'll review in Core before it gets closed.


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> This is me, mid game. The adventure is going swimmingly and my players have come up with some great ideas. I'll cover them another time though. Oh, and they SERIOUSLY hate kobolds
> 
> The new class mods have gone down well, but we're still not satisfied with the Cleric's Turn Undead ability. Can't decide between it being a spell (or spell-like thingummy) or a special ability usable a certain number of times per day. Or something else.
> 
> I'm putting that to the vote.




I'd have to say I like the idea of each class having their own special ability:

Mages having to pay one less HP for their "signature" spell
Fighters having bonuses to ATK and DMG
Rogues having sneak attack
Clerics having Turn Undead



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> Oh, and Mark's got a name for the House Rules supplement: The Microlite20 Macropedia! Yay!




Brilliant!



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> On the equipment thing, I'm going to put simplified weapon damages into the Microlite20 UA; You've persuaded me that sticking with d20 standard damage levels is a better thing to have in Core. It also keeps those monsters-with-weapons from existing adventures and Monster Manuals on the same playing field.




I like putting it in the Macropedia.  Maby the Macropedia should be a simple document, no tables, no restrictions on size.  Let it grow to its hearts content.  Or, have each rule in its own section, that way you can pick and choose and pull together your own little doc.

Maby I'm asking too much 

Anyhoo, get me the RTF with the revised class abilities so I can roll that PocketMod out!


----------



## Sadrik

What do you guys think about this idea?
Monster hit points are determined by multiplying the HD by 2 (delicate), 3 (average), 4 (tough), 5 (no anatomy) then add the creatures STR score.
Character hit points are determined by multiplying the Level by 2 (wizard), 3 (rogue and cleric), 4 (fighter) then add the characters STR score.


----------



## MeepoDM

Sadrik said:
			
		

> What do you guys think about this idea?
> Monster hit points are determined by multiplying the HD by 2 (delicate), 3 (average), 4 (tough), 5 (no anatomy) then add the creatures STR score.
> Character hit points are determined by multiplying the Level by 2 (wizard), 3 (rogue and cleric), 4 (fighter) then add the characters STR score.




I'm curious on the monsters part, why the change would be needed at all?  By making this change, you'd have to convert every monster in every D&D/d20 adventure you wanted to run with m20.  I guess I'm wondering why you think this change would be needed as opposed to leaving it as is (opening the Monster Manual and using the creature as written).

I like the Character HD idea OK, but again, think the change isn't needed.  Fighters already have more HP than everyone else as their STR is usually higher while Wizards have less HP's since they'll likely be burning HP's often to fuel spells.


----------



## bytor4232

Sadrik said:
			
		

> What do you guys think about this idea?
> Monster hit points are determined by multiplying the HD by 2 (delicate), 3 (average), 4 (tough), 5 (no anatomy) then add the creatures STR score.
> Character hit points are determined by multiplying the Level by 2 (wizard), 3 (rogue and cleric), 4 (fighter) then add the characters STR score.




I like the HD system the way it is currently in Microlite20.


----------



## Greyharp

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> I like the HD system the way it is currently in Microlite20.





I must admit it is the simplicity of the system that I find attractive. Rule changes that make it more complex defeat the purpose and there are plenty of other "lite" rules out there that aren't as "micro" as M20. 

I think it is one thing to tweak a system to improve it and another to alter the rules to make it a totally different game.


----------



## bytor4232

I totally agree.


----------



## Greyharp

Ok I bit the bullet and drew up a plan of the slipcase I made. Now here's my problem: if I upload it to Photobucket, it reduces the size of the jpeg and thus destroys all the "actual size" measurements. Does anyone know how to upload it to the thread without going through an image hosting site? 

Alternately I can email it to anyone who is interested (it is 473 kb). My email is: trowuttatwo@yahoo.com.au


Cheers
Dave


----------



## bytor4232

Greyharp said:
			
		

> Ok I bit the bullet and drew up a plan of the slipcase I made. Now here's my problem: if I upload it to Photobucket, it reduces the size of the jpeg and thus destroys all the "actual size" measurements. Does anyone know how to upload it to the thread without going through an image hosting site?
> 
> Alternately I can email it to anyone who is interested (it is 473 kb). My email is: trowuttatwo@yahoo.com.au
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Dave




You can shoot it over to dm@aerthon.com.  I can host it at http://arthur.jfmi.net/m20


----------



## MeepoDM

greywulf said:
			
		

> I don't like ELs as they stand either. That's probably the last thing I'll review in Core before it gets closed.




Personally I think your EL advancement system is excellent!  Perhaps the EL system should be more closely tied to the CR system (like in d20) rather than freeforming it?  I'd hate to see something as simplistically wonderful as 10 x currently level leave


----------



## Greyharp

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> You can shoot it over to dm@aerthon.com.  I can host it at http://arthur.jfmi.net/m20




Good thinking 99, thanks for that Bytor - image sent


----------



## bytor4232

Greyharp said:
			
		

> Good thinking 99, thanks for that Bytor - image sent




Here ya go!

http://arthur.jfmi.net/images/slipcase.jpg

Enjoy.


----------



## Sadrik

Greyharp said:
			
		

> I must admit it is the simplicity of the system that I find attractive. Rule changes that make it more complex defeat the purpose and there are plenty of other "lite" rules out there that aren't as "micro" as M20.
> 
> I think it is one thing to tweak a system to improve it and another to alter the rules to make it a totally different game.



Does it make it more complex?
STR + 1d6/level vs. STR + 2, 3, or 4/level.

Then the monsters? why does a kobold have 3 hp and not str + 1d6/level?

I just want to know what the reasoning is. I dont know why it was decided to do it that way. I am curious. Again I like shoring up irregularities and special cases. Some may not be bothered by them...

Imo I would say go all one way or not. use HD as 1d6+ STR mod or STR score + 1d6/level.

I hope I am being helpful.


----------



## Darrell

Sadrik said:
			
		

> Does it make it more complex?
> STR + 1d6/level vs. STR + 2, 3, or 4/level.




It doesn't make it more complex.  One of the primary attractions for the +1d6 hp/level (It used to be a simple +1 hp/level...don't know how long you've been following the thread) was the variable nature of the random roll.  A blanket +2, 3, or 4 doesn't have that random nature.



			
				Sadrik said:
			
		

> Then the monsters? why does a kobold have 3 hp and not str + 1d6/level?
> 
> I just want to know what the reasoning is. I dont know why it was decided to do it that way. I am curious. Again I like shoring up irregularities and special cases. Some may not be bothered by them...




Short answer:  That's what it was in the SRD.  The threat posed by any individual creature or group of creatures is keyed to HD.  I know it will horrify those people who are so dedicated to absolute game balance, but the game in m20 is geared to tell the story of the Player Characters, possibly to the detriment of monsters and NPCs.  Some monsters are more powerful, some less.  As with every other decision made, compatibility with existing D&D/d20 material was paramount.

I know you bring up the changes in character rules (three stats, +1d6 hp/level, etc.), but the fact is, none of those changes has fundamentally altered the compatibility with d20 game material (not even the 'hp powering spells' angle).  It has lowered the default 'magic-ness' a bit, but not so much so that it alters its compatible nature.

The monsters in the m20 Monsters List exist pretty much as they were in the d20 SRD, just in a truncated form; and just like the Equipment List, anything not listed in the entries in the Monster List is pretty much ignored.



			
				Sadrik said:
			
		

> I hope I am being helpful.




Of course you are.     Now, lest you think I'm just being argumentative and jumpin' down your throat, I will say that I _do_, most assuredly, agree with you that stats should be listed in the monsters' entries.  I'm gonna start workin' on that as soon as I get a chance.


Regards,
Darrell


----------



## MeepoDM

Well, monsters really don't have to work like characters do.  This worked fine for 25 years prior to 3rd edition.  I don't need to know if I can arm wrestle a Hobgoblin, just how many holes I can poke in it before it falls down


----------



## bytor4232

Thats too true.


----------



## Darrell

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> Well, monsters really don't have to work like characters do.  This worked fine for 25 years prior to 3rd edition.  I don't need to know if I can arm wrestle a Hobgoblin, just how many holes I can poke in it before it falls down




Agreed. They don't have to work the same.  It might help, though, to have its STR listed if you and the hobgoblin are trying to throw each other off of a cliff, or its MIND if its trying to resist your spell.  At any rate, it couldn't hurt to have its stats listed, just as an example.

Let me know if this is something no one but Sadrik and I are interested in; no use in my doin' a lot of typing if no one's gonna use it.    

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## bytor4232

Darrell said:
			
		

> Let me know if this is something no one but Sadrik and I are interested in; no use in my doin' a lot of typing if no one's gonna use it.




It might be a good idea, especially for the reasons you listed.  If you do, make the stats in a block format, like "10/10/10" at the end of the block, and we'll just know that that means "STR/DEX/MIND".  I'd like to see the system and suppliments stay as compact as possible.


----------



## MeepoDM

Greywulf's call; it is his baby.  Personally, if there isn't another change after the EL thing is cleaned up a bit, I'd be perfectly happy. 

How'd the adventure go?


----------



## greywulf

Darrell said:
			
		

> Agreed. They don't have to work the same.  It might help, though, to have its STR listed if you and the hobgoblin are trying to throw each other off of a cliff, or its MIND if its trying to resist your spell.  At any rate, it couldn't hurt to have its stats listed, just as an example.




Awwww heck. I just make the stats up on the spot if they're needed. After all, when was the last time one of your characters tried to arm-wrestle a hobgoblin, outrace a goblin or try to decrypt an ancient text faster than an otyugh? For the amount of time you /really/ need the stats, it's an awful lot of wasted paper and ink. 

Yes, they're useful sometimes, and in those occassions I wing it. That hobgoblin trying to toss you off the cliff feels about STR 14 to me. Yep go with that. 

As to why the Hit Points aren't consistent between Characters and Monsters, there's two reasons:

1) Because Monsters /aren't/ Characters. The mechanics can be different for them, provided the end result is the same (they Have Hit Points, so they can die). OK, it's old school and not in line with the latest politically-correct D&D manifesto ("Otyughs have feelings too!"), but hey, it works for me.

2) Characters in the game are a special breed. They have access to training, hygeine and levels of comfort that precious few can attain. They are geared to work at full efficiency - hence they get their full STR in Hit Points at the start of the game. Almost everyone else (and every monster) has ringworm, lice, fleas, old wounds and ill-knitted bones; they don't get that bonus. It's what separates the Heroes from the Crowd. After that, they just get Hit Dice like everyone else. Except theirs is six-sided, not eight-sided (or twelve, or whatever) because they are still Human (/Elf/Dwarf/Halfling) and their weak flesh can only benefit so much from experience. Some Monsters do get a bonus to thier Hit Die to reflect their inherent toughness above the norm, and that reflects how much of their STR they have added to the roll. 

After all, what's the real difference between an Ogre with 4d8+11 HD and a 4th level STR-11 Rogue with 4d6+11?

There you go. Hope that helps 

I'll write more about the adventure later. Suffice to say that something happened which has never, /ever/ happened in all my almost 30-years of gaming. 

One of my traps totally, completely stumped the players. Utterly.

More later.


----------



## bytor4232

Sounds like you had a good time!  Don't forget about getting that RTF of the class benefits posted today, that way I can redo that PocketMod.  That formatting error is getting to me.


----------



## greywulf

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> Sounds like you had a good time!  Don't forget about getting that RTF of the class benefits posted today, that way I can redo that PocketMod.  That formatting error is getting to me.




Thanks for reminding me. I've updated it at http://home.greywulf.net/files/Microlite20.rtf now. It's all yours.

I need to make a few small changes to the adventure following last night's playtest (mainly more monster variety and take out the 2 winged kobolds - they're just too tough for 2nd level adventurers to fight against). On the whole though, the rules worked just great. I estimated the ELs so that the party levelled up about halfway through and that worked well. The cleric spent a LOT of time healing, and a fair number of combats involved guerilla tactics of picking off a few bad guys then pulling back. They were thankful I included a Safe Room for them 

One trap in particular took up about an hour of game time.

It's a 15' pit trap. All of the walls have wooden spikes angled sharply downwards. The poor Fighter (Half-orc (STR+3/MIND-1)) fell in taking 1.5d6 (6hp) damage then they just couldn't get him out! Much hilarity ensued until they decided the only way out was for someone to head outside, cut down a tree to make a Classic D&D 10' pole which they lay over the hole with a rope tied to the middle and winch him up. 

Problem was he was too heavy in his Chain armour so that stayed in the pit and he's winched up, half-naked, cursing in Orcish while the rest of the players are laughing fit to break.

Then the kobolds turn up.............


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> I need to make a few small changes to the adventure following last night's playtest (mainly more monster variety and take out the 2 winged kobolds - they're just too tough for 2nd level adventurers to fight against).




Those are my favorite Kobolds!  In a OA campaign a player of mine was running I played a Dragonwrought Kobold Paladin.  Very fun!



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> One trap in particular took up about an hour of game time.  It's a 15' pit trap. All of the walls have wooden spikes angled sharply downwards. The poor Fighter (Half-orc (STR+3/MIND-1)) fell in taking 1.5d6 (6hp) damage then they just couldn't get him out! Much hilarity ensued until they decided the only way out was for someone to head outside, cut down a tree to make a Classic D&D 10' pole which they lay over the hole with a rope tied to the middle and winch him up.
> 
> Problem was he was too heavy in his Chain armour so that stayed in the pit and he's winched up, half-naked, cursing in Orcish while the rest of the players are laughing fit to break.
> 
> Then the kobolds turn up.............




Dude, that is hilarious!  Nicely done!



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> Thanks for reminding me. I've updated it at http://home.greywulf.net/files/Microlite20.rtf now. It's all yours.




Excellent!  http://arthur.jfmi.net/m20/ has been updated.  You can download the new PocketMod directly here:

http://arthur.jfmi.net/m20/Pocketmod/Microlite20 - Core - Pocketmod.pdf

I also have a few other goodies up there.  I made a second level adventure, and a PocketMod of character sheets.


----------



## greywulf

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> Excellent!  http://arthur.jfmi.net/m20/ has been updated.  You can download the new PocketMod directly here:
> 
> http://arthur.jfmi.net/m20/Pocketmod/Microlite20 - Core - Pocketmod.pdf




Great work, Bytor. I've put it up on http://home.greywulf.net/m20/downloads.html as the official one. Lovely stuff


----------



## llamatron2000

...at the risk of opening up a can of worms here....what do you think of a multiclassing mechanic?

Something like...being able to multiclass every 5 levels.  Start classes off with a +2 their skill at level 1, and giving them a +1 at every 5 level interval...and scaling class abilities by level?

Yes, I realize it adds complexity, but...it does open up avenues to better represent character concepts.


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> Great work, Bytor. I've put it up on http://home.greywulf.net/m20/downloads.html as the official one. Lovely stuff




Don't forget to snag the adventures too   If you want to link over to my site, that is acceptable as well.


----------



## bytor4232

llamatron2000 said:
			
		

> ...at the risk of opening up a can of worms here....what do you think of a multiclassing mechanic?
> 
> Something like...being able to multiclass every 5 levels.  Start classes off with a +2 their skill at level 1, and giving them a +1 at every 5 level interval...and scaling class abilities by level?
> 
> Yes, I realize it adds complexity, but...it does open up avenues to better represent character concepts.




Given that this game is meant to be simple, I wouldn't put any restrictions on multiclassing.  If someone wants to take a level in mage, let them.  Remember, this game is meant to be kept as simple as possible.

However, in my opinion, If your multiclassing, you might as well play regular D&D.


----------



## greywulf

llamatron2000 said:
			
		

> ...at the risk of opening up a can of worms here....what do you think of a multiclassing mechanic?
> 
> Something like...being able to multiclass every 5 levels.  Start classes off with a +2 their skill at level 1, and giving them a +1 at every 5 level interval...and scaling class abilities by level?




Mmmmmmmmm.......worms........

Bytor, I've snarfed the adventures and stuck the m up. Thanks!

Multiclassing is something to go in the House Rules Macropedia, that's for sure. 

Personally I'd stear clear of it though, if only because the freedom of the system makes multiclassing largely redundant. If you want to play a spell-caster wielding a big ass axe, that's fine by the rules as they stand. The only thing stopping you right now is GM-imposed limits, cultural expectations and the knowledge that you'll Get Hit More Often by Things Bigger Than You......

If someone wanted to play a sneaky cleric (or any other combo), I'd let 'em provided they didn't mind a little GM balance meanness in return. It's only fair, after all. You're a Rogue AND a Cleric, so that's two characters, right?!


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> Personally I'd stear clear of it though, if only because the freedom of the system makes multiclassing largely redundant. If you want to play a spell-caster wielding a big ass axe, that's fine by the rules as they stand. The only thing stopping you right now is GM-imposed limits, cultural expectations and the knowledge that you'll Get Hit More Often by Things Bigger Than You......
> 
> If someone wanted to play a sneaky cleric (or any other combo), I'd let 'em provided they didn't mind a little GM balance meanness in return. It's only fair, after all. You're a Rogue AND a Cleric, so that's two characters, right?!




Hm.  Gestalt.  I like where that is heading


----------



## Darrell

greywulf said:
			
		

> Awwww heck. I just make the stats up on the spot if they're needed.




That was kind of the feeling I was having to begin with.  Having thought it over a bit more, I think I'll leave the Monster List as it is.  (Though, I have to say, the 'outwrestling a hobgoblin' thing was an in-game example from Sunday night...it was fresh on my mind when I needed an example.      )



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> As to why the Hit Points aren't consistent between Characters and Monsters, there's two reasons:
> 1) Because Monsters /aren't/ Characters. *SNIP*
> 2) Characters in the game are a special breed. *SNIP*




Exactly.  That's why I just used the monsters as they existed in the SRD.  Hit points, AC, and such were already listed.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## Darrell

llamatron2000 said:
			
		

> ...at the risk of opening up a can of worms here....what do you think of a multiclassing mechanic?
> 
> Something like...being able to multiclass every 5 levels.  Start classes off with a +2 their skill at level 1, and giving them a +1 at every 5 level interval...and scaling class abilities by level?
> 
> Yes, I realize it adds complexity, but...it does open up avenues to better represent character concepts.




I don't see any reason for a new mechanic.  The m20 rules are quite capable of multiclassing as they stand.  In fact, one of my players is planning for his fighter to become a paladin.  We're handling this by his taking a level of cleric when he reaches 3rd level.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but again, the beauty of Microlite20 is its free-form simplicity.  The most complex character concept can be handled with ease by simply applying a bit of common sense.    

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## MeepoDM

GM fiat is my friend!  If nothing else (and you didn't bring a Monster Manual with you), you can always do it like we did back in the ol' days of the White Box: grab 3d6 and roll the stat you need on the spot! 

Agreed on Multiclassing.  It's not my bag, but as long as the lines are clear on what levels go where, MC'ing is a piece of cake.


----------



## kroh

> hate to sound like a broken record, but again, the beauty of Microlite20 is its free-form simplicity. The most complex character concept can be handled with ease by simply applying a bit of common sense.




HEY!  Don't you dare use those words [common sense] on an open forum.  Some one might accuse you of something!

[sorry couldn't resist]
Regards, 
Walt


----------



## DJCupboard

That's a very creative way to overcome a trap.  I would have asked for a phys check to try and climb out using the spikes as handholds.

I keep trying to come up with ways to show how minmaxing would break multiclassing, but everything is so simple, it doesn't seem to happen.  My only fear is a level one rogue going into any other class is better than a straight rogue, but then it's also sub-optimal compared to a straight whatever you just multied into, so I guess it's still balanced.  The other thing I keep bumping into is that if its fun, what does it matter if its power-gamey; the simple rules have minimized combat to the point that that emphasis isn't really there anyway.

What I like most about m20 is that, unlike standard DnD, you don't need to worry that the classes don't emulate a character concept properly; because, with the classes all being so mechanically similar, character concept is almost fully an rping destinction.  As an example, you could just as easily build Drizzt Do'urden as any one of the four base classes and they would still pretty much emulate what he could do in the novels.

Has anyone put together a non-pocket-mod version of an m20 adventure, I want the one I'm working on to follow a basic layout that matches what's already been "published."


----------



## greywulf

DJCupboard said:
			
		

> That's a very creative way to overcome a trap.  I would have asked for a phys check to try and climb out using the spikes as handholds.




He tried that, and kept impaling himself on all the other spikes, taking another d4 of damage. A few tries of that (at 1st level) and the player decided to stop trying. I love evil traps, me.

I'm a GM. I drive a Fiat. Says everything, really


----------



## bytor4232

DJCupboard said:
			
		

> Has anyone put together a non-pocket-mod version of an m20 adventure, I want the one I'm working on to follow a basic layout that matches what's already been "published."




http://arthur.jfmi.net/m20/adv/TombOfMightyMadness
http://arthur.jfmi.net/m20/adv/GoblinHoard
http://arthur.jfmi.net/m20/adv/FonkinTheGnome

First, I played with http://www.aarg.net/~minam/dungeon.cgi and http://www.bin.sh/gaming/tools/dungeon.cgi to find a dungeon that I liked.  Then, I saved the entire webpage into a directory.  Then I had to edit the HTML to increase the fonts, clean it up, and add additional stuff at the end.  Then I printed it to a file (its PostScript), ran ps2pdf, then to PocketMod.  All to easy.


----------



## MeepoDM

greywulf said:
			
		

> I'm a GM. I drive a Fiat. Says everything, really





'nuff said!!


----------



## WSmith

I see that my buddy Meepo has been holding out a beautiful gem from me.  

IMO, this in one of the best implimentations of the open gaming license yet, along with OSRIC and BFRPG. 

When I was a 3e player, I would over and over again, try countless times to create a rule lite version of d20 such as this. I fact, many of my notes were pretty close to identical to these rules.  I just never had the discipline to finish it out. I wanted the D&D basic set to be more like this. As time went on I gravated back to Classic and Advanced, and most recently Original D&D. Microlite20 reminds me a lot of what I like about OD&D. Plain rules. Not tons of crunch, but just enough to make it work. Small spell lists with just enough text description to use, but not too much to overburden the player or GM, or to venture in rule lawyering. 

What you guys have here is one amazing project. 

A few comments, 

For years I left CHA out of my d20 rules lite attempts. Now that I have gone back to OD&D, (in which Charisma is argruably the most important ability score) I can see its use. I am not lobbying for it to be included in the Microlite core. On the contrary, I actually like the core rules as they are now. But in the absence of CHA, I will have to make some kind of house rule for the morale and loyalty of men-at-arms and hirelings, and the monster reactions.  I will somehow build it off Communication. 

I love that spells are fueled by the charcater's essence. Awesome! It reminds me of Tunnels and Trolls, Dragon Warriors, and a host of other old school games that use such a concept. 

I am undecided about turn undead. 

I will have to read the books again, then I will have more feedback.


----------



## MeepoDM

WSmith said:
			
		

> I see that my buddy Meepo has been holding out a beautiful gem from me.
> 
> IMO, this in one of the best implimentations of the open gaming license yet, along with OSRIC and BFRPG.




Eek!  Admit that I can see some good things in 3e?  They'd revoke my 'Grognards' card and publicly beat me at K&K (and just plain beat me at Dragonsfoot...)  



			
				WSmith said:
			
		

> When I was a 3e player, I would over and over again, try countless times to create a rule lite version of d20 such as this. I fact, many of my notes were pretty close to identical to these rules.  I just never had the discipline to finish it out. I wanted the D&D basic set to be more like this. As time went on I gravated back to Classic and Advanced, and most recently Original D&D. Microlite20 reminds me a lot of what I like about OD&D. Plain rules. Not tons of crunch, but just enough to make it work. Small spell lists with just enough text description to use, but not too much to overburden the player or GM, or to venture in rule lawyering.
> 
> What you guys have here is one amazing project.




 Thanks W!  It's a _very good thing_ to get your stamp of approval!


----------



## Bretbo

OK, here is the latest updated m20 Modern.  Added equipment, but left some out for space considerations; maybe some one will want to do a equipment list containing everything.  I left out any "non-real world" elements, leaving that for supplements and such.

As always, feedback welcome (and very helpful so far).


----------



## Sadrik

I would have to say no to multi-classing.

You want to play a wizard warrior? pick up a sword Mr. wizard. You want to play a sneaky fighter? Wear light armor. The differentiation is only +3. A warriory wizard should be created with a high str score. It seems simple enough to me.

I only say these things because I want you guys to have a good product. But warriors are very weak even with using physical skill for BAB. Sure at low level they get a pretty nice boost but as characters go up in level the bonuses flatten out. And you might as well be a wizard that uses a sword or cleric etc. I think this would all be fixed if you used a different sized HD or gave them a HP boost etc. Being a front line fighter means being tough and right now they are no tougher than a few points (difference in starting STR score).

My suggestion would be to do 1d4 for wizard 1d6 for rogue and cleric and 1d8 for warrior. On the same token- You gotta give some reason why the wizard shouldnt go into combat. 1d4 hp/level should accomplish that goal.


----------



## greywulf

WSmith said:
			
		

> I see that my buddy Meepo has been holding out a beautiful gem from me.




W, welcome aboard! Any friend of Meepo's is not to be trusted is a pleasure to meet! Many thanks for the praise. It all goes to our heads. Really, it does.

I'm glad you (and others) see Microlite20's roots. I'm a strict old-schooler who /still/ plays using the D&D Rules Cyclopedia (and Traveller, and Rolemaster, and Dragon Warriors , and .....) when allowed by the other gamers. I swear they just do it to humour me. 

I love d20 with a passion, but sometimes I just want to get back to gaming roots where there's no arguing over Attacks of Opportunity. One of my players is still sore after our first 3e game when we spent the whole session "discussing" whether the Ogre gets an OoA if his Rogue tries to Sneak attack him from behind while the Ogre is fighting the Ranger. Then the Ranger wanted an AoO because the Ogre is distracted because of the AoO against the Rogue, and whether the Rogue should _then_ get an AoO before his Sneak attack because of the Ogre resolving the AoO caused by the AoO caused by the Sneak attack. We resolved never, ever, _ever_ to use Attacks of Opportunity again. And I thought Golden Heroes parry rules were complicated!

But I digress. Where was I? Oh yes........

d20 is a great system, but it's just not perfect for every game session, every time. Neither is Microlite20, but hopefully it fills some of the gaps that d20 doesn't fit. Want to game at the pub, on the 'phone or at a friend's house and it's raining too much to haul your precious gaming books out? Microlite20 works just fine. Same for introducing new players, and pleasing the old-schoolers alike. 

It's got less filling, yet at the same time it's more filling. Kinda like bran flakes.

I reckon including  CHA as an optional fourth Stat will be a popular choice out of the House Rules Macropedia. That and the Turn Undead variations that will undoubtedly creep inside. So you're not alone about with your feelings about those. Options is good, after all 

I'm glad that the spell rules have been so well received, frankly. I would be speechless if I were talking and not typing right now.

Thanks for your kind words 

Bretbo: thanks for the updated Modern supplement! I'm a bit burnt out from template building right now, so I'll review and upload it onto the main site tomorrow. ok?

Sadrik: I agree entirely, the differentiation is very small, and that's intentional. The only real difference between a Fighter and a Rogue (or a Fighter and another Fighter for that matter, or a Fighter and a Cleric) is how you play him. It's a set of small advantages, that's all. The rest is entirely up to you - just as role-playing should be. That's why I said that multi-classing is largely redundant. Why multi-class if there are no boundaries in the first place 

As regards variable hit points levels (d4 for Rogue, etc) and fixed hit points levels, I'm going to collate all of the options and drop 'em into the Macropedia. What you use, and what you do, is entirely up to you. 

Again, that's how it should be 

EDIT: Bretbo, I just checked the Modern pdf and the license throws the .pdf over to a fourth page. Any chance you could reduce the font size (just on the license) to get it back to three? That aside, you've done a marvelous job compressing the whole ruleset for Modern play onto just two sides. I'm itching to run a spy game now. Think I'll call it "Chicken Royale"......heh......... WELL DONE!!!!


----------



## Darrell

Bretbo said:
			
		

> OK, here is the latest updated m20 Modern.




And a darn fine job, too.  Good job on the two-page fit.      I noticed the same one-line bit in the license throwing it onto a fourth page that 'wulf did, but it didn't bug me that much, as I never print out the license page anyway.



			
				Bretbo said:
			
		

> Added equipment, but left some out for space considerations; maybe some one will want to do a equipment list containing everything.




I've been thinking about doing this, but just haven't found the time yet.



			
				Bretbo said:
			
		

> I left out any "non-real world" elements, leaving that for supplements and such.




I think that's for the best.  Now, if we can get someone to put together a few "magic 'n' monster" pdfs for Modern, we'll be set.    

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## bytor4232

Bretbo said:
			
		

> OK, here is the latest updated m20 Modern.  Added equipment, but left some out for space considerations; maybe some one will want to do a equipment list containing everything.  I left out any "non-real world" elements, leaving that for supplements and such.
> 
> As always, feedback welcome (and very helpful so far).




Dude!  Your amazing!  I LOVE it!  My daughter and I are going to play this tomorrow night.  I'll let you know how it goes.

Do you want me to make a PocketMod version?  If so, email me the rtf or doc of your work to dm@aerthon.com.  I can work with the PDF for now, it will just be a little harder.


----------



## bytor4232

Darrell said:
			
		

> I think that's for the best.  Now, if we can get someone to put together a few "magic 'n' monster" pdfs for Modern, we'll be set.




Dont.  Pick up the Monster Manual and d20 Modern and start comparing creatures.  There isn't really much of a difference, not enough for Microlite20 to bother with it.  Same for Magic.  If you want Magic in a spy game, or want to fight a Kobold, just use the stats from Microlite20 Core.  Thats what I would do.

In fact, I've run some d20 Modern games like this, where I allowed them to play D&D classes aloung side the d20 Modern characters.  It worked out pretty well.  The Wizards were a little overpowering, but not that bad.

Thats my 2 copper.


----------



## greywulf

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> Dont.  Pick up the Monster Manual and d20 Modern and start comparing creatures.  There isn't really much of a difference, not enough for Microlite20 to bother with it.  Same for Magic.  If you want Magic in a spy game, or want to fight a Kobold, just use the stats from Microlite20 Core.  Thats what I would do.




I'm with Bytor 100% on this. Simplify, don't duplicate. If you want to run a game with Hobgoblins in the subway, just grab the Core, your (excellent) Modern supplement and the Monster List and run with it. 

What I'd like to see is a Sci-Fi supplement. Give me lasers, starships and furry aliens. Starships are just Big Creaturs that happen to be made of metal and have other creatures inside them. They have HD, AC and weapons just like an Orc, only on a much larger scale. Your typical Trenchordian Cruiser is HD70, AC45, and a +30 Pulse Canon doing 10d20 damage. Like most starships, it's not affected by any weapon that does less than 20 points of damage. Now you know. And yes, I'm working on this one 

One thought - each "era" of play emphasises one of the four skills slightly more than others:

- Subterfuge for Urban Fantasy
- Physical for Conan-style Fantasy
- Knowledge for Modern
- Communication for Sci-Fi

While each skill is important, everywhere, you've more likeley to need this "era" skill more than any other - certainly, it'll be more represented in the party make-up. Your modern spy thriller is all about what you know about who you know. In sci-fi you're using Navigation, contacting alien races and using diplomacy to uncover the mystery. In your Conan-style game, all that matters is how hard you can swing your sword/axe/loincloth. I'm sure different gaming styles come into play here, but that'smy (rough) take on it.

Just a thought.


----------



## DJCupboard

In keeping with the simplicity of m20 and m20 modern, I wonder if we should get so descriptive with our races/monsters/vehicles for the supliments.  I know the urge for me is to flush out a campaign world when I start working on supliments (if I ever get internet somewhere other than work, I might even get to post something), but that just might be too much.  I know that so far, greywulf, all you have done is give a sci-fi-y name to your star ship, but even that might be too much (I'm really not sure) for microlite.  Give the campaign a sufficiently genre evoking name (like, Microlite Space Opera, or something), the stats for Star Cruisers, Cargo Ships, Personal Spacecraft, a few laser blasters and you're pretty much good to go.  Anyone interested in a space opera campaign probably already knows the right kind of flavor to add in at the table.  Maybe rename elves "martians," dwarves "Miners," and halflings something else, maybe not (Most races in a sci-fi/space opera setting really only differ from humans in terms of what kind of makeup the actors need to put on, anyway).  Include a blurb about using monsters straight from the core, with the suggestion that you should come up with uniquely alien sounding names on the fly, only using the stats as befits the type of creature you want the players to encounter.  That should help keep even setting supliments in the two page range.

DJC


----------



## Bretbo

greywulf said:
			
		

> Bretbo: thanks for the updated Modern supplement! I'm a bit burnt out from template building right now, so I'll review and upload it onto the main site tomorrow. ok?




Hey Wulf, take your time.  As noted, it's still in the brainstorm'n phase so once you think its' ready, then by all means full steam ahead.



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> EDIT: Bretbo, I just checked the Modern pdf and the license throws the .pdf over to a fourth page. Any chance you could reduce the font size (just on the license) to get it back to three? That aside, you've done a marvelous job compressing the whole ruleset for Modern play onto just two sides. I'm itching to run a spy game now. Think I'll call it "Chicken Royale"......heh......... WELL DONE!!!!




Thanks.  Yeah, don't know how I misses that.  It's fixed now (and did a little more clean-up in minor ways) so the attachment is all "neat and proper."  Let us know how "Chicken Royale" goes.




			
				Darrell said:
			
		

> And a darn fine job, too. Good job on the two-page fit.




Thanks, Darrell.  Look forward to seeing what supplements you come up with.  After all this project is about "sharing the wealth."



			
				bytor4232 said:
			
		

> Dude! Your amazing! I LOVE it! My daughter and I are going to play this tomorrow night. I'll let you know how it goes.
> 
> Do you want me to make a PocketMod version? If so, email me the rtf or doc of your work to dm@aerthon.com. I can work with the PDF for now, it will just be a little harder.




Thanks, bytor.  Man, all this appreciation is going to make my head swell to the point of explosion!    Of course, it goes without saying that Wulf is our guru and Overlord...er...I mean inspiration!

Look forward to reading how your game with the daughter goes.  As for the PocketMod, I'll certainly send you the original (its' in .doc format), as mentioned above I want to get a "finalized" version before anything more permanent is done.  I think we're getting there quickly.


----------



## greywulf

Entirely agree. Generic is the way to go, all the way. 

Mind you, I've another thought to toss out. How about each class of starship has a damage multiplier, say, Fighter=x10, Starship=x100, Cruiser=x200, Destroyer=x500, or whatever. This is used just for scale and comparison between the different levels. Kinda like MDC in Rifts, etc, only simpler.

Then we can use the Monster supplement to create starships! Let me explain.........

A Goblin-class Fighter would be HD1d8+1, 5hp, AC15 with a +3 Pulse Laser doing 1d4 damage - at Figher scale. Multiply the damage by 10 if it's attacking a normal sized opponent (those Goblin lasers are nasty!) and similarly divide small-arms fire by 10 if someone wants to try and shoot it down with a blaster pistol. Similarly, divide the Goblin-class Fighter's damage by 10 if it's going against that big ugly Ogre-class Starship. It's divided by a whopping 50 if it wants to come up against the Ankheg-class Destroyer - and it multiplies the Ankheg's 2d6+7 Proton Beam Canon damage by 50. Goblin space dust.

I think we'll need to work on those damage multipliers to get the feel right.

Of course, we can rename the ships to whatever we want in-game, but it'll mean we've a whole bunch of stats all ready and waiting to be sent to the stars. Just watch out for those Lich-class ships. Energy drain isn't fun in space.

EDIT: 400 posts! Woot! We're halfway toward Microlite20's total wordcount   Bretbo, I've uploaded your latest Microlite20_Modern.pdf to the downloads page at http://home.greywulf.net/m20. Many thanks!


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> I'm with Bytor 100% on this. Simplify, don't duplicate. If you want to run a game with Hobgoblins in the subway, just grab the Core, your (excellent) Modern supplement and the Monster List and run with it.




I have d20 Modern, and thats what I do.  I've run a few Modern games and we just blend 3.5 and d20 Modern together.  Tell you what, as a DM and Player its much more fun that way.  None of my players are fans of the Urban Arcana suppliment.  If I need stats on a Hobgoblin, I always to go to the 3.5e Monster Manual.  I never look for monster stats in d20 Modern.  



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> What I'd like to see is a Sci-Fi supplement. Give me lasers, starships and furry aliens. Starships are just Big Creaturs that happen to be made of metal and have other creatures inside them. They have HD, AC and weapons just like an Orc, only on a much larger scale. Your typical Trenchordian Cruiser is HD70, AC45, and a +30 Pulse Canon doing 10d20 damage. Like most starships, it's not affected by any weapon that does less than 20 points of damage. Now you know. And yes, I'm working on this one




You beat me to the post, dangit!  Yes, we now need Microlite20 Future so I can run a Serenity/Firefly campaign with my wife, one of the biggest Serenity fans there is.

In fact, if you guys want to see an example of a Future OGL suppliment, this:

http://arthur.jfmi.net/SerenityRPG.pdf
http://arthur.jfmi.net/SerenityRPG.doc

This document is what the d20 Modern community at DNDOG uses when running Serenity games.  There is a few up there and at Myth Weavers.  There should be some stats in that doc regarding ships and whatnot.

Doesn't the d20 Modern SRD have future stats at any rate?


----------



## greywulf

Oh I've sooooooo immediately snarfed the Serenity pdf! Man, I love(d) that series. Sometimes, the best do die young. Sniff...........


----------



## bytor4232

Bretbo said:
			
		

> Look forward to reading how your game with the daughter goes.  As for the PocketMod, I'll certainly send you the original (its' in .doc format), as mentioned above I want to get a "finalized" version before anything more permanent is done.  I think we're getting there quickly.




Making PocketMods is really no trouble for me.  I can whip them up fairly rapidly.  I used xpdf to select regions, and I did some heavy editing.  I wanted to playtest from a PocketMod.  Besides, I don't forsee too many changes to your Modern suppliment, I think its perfect the way it is.  Now go, onto making a Future suppliment 

Here is the rough draft of the PocketMod:

http://arthur.jfmi.net/m20/Pocketmod/Microlite20 Modern - Pocketmod.pdf


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> Oh I've sooooooo immediately snarfed the Serenity pdf! Man, I love(d) that series. Sometimes, the best do die young. Sniff...........




Enjoy the doc   If you like d20, and I know you do, its a great way to get into the Firefly universe.

I have the Firefly series and Serenity on DVD, and watch them all the time.  Jaynestown rules.


----------



## bytor4232

Hm.  Maby I should make an adventure where they go to the crappy planet where Wash is the hero.


----------



## bytor4232

Bretbo, 

I have to say, the more I read it the more I'm very impressed with this Modern suppliment.  Kudos all around to the man of the hour.  I simply love how it melds into the core m20 stuff.

You know whats missing thou, pistol whipping.  There should be a melee weapons table. Yes, they're simple weapons to figure out, and DMs can probably reason it out on the fly, but still.

I took the liberty of including what I thought would be good melee weapons in the [url="http://arthur.jfmi.net/m20/Pocketmod/Microlite20 Modern - Pocketmod.pdf]PocketMod version of your Modern suppliment[/url].  Kinda wanted the simple weapons for my playtest tonight.


----------



## bytor4232

Anybody had a chance to run through my dungeon crawls yet?


----------



## Fr33man

Hello, i'm a french player of your fabulous M20. Just a few comments :
- in the last version of the pocketbook core rules, the letters are too small and the margins too large.
- the pdf version of the core rules and the ocketbook version are not the same (no spells DC in the pdf version for example)
- When do you use Magic attack bonus (except for turning undead) ?
- Why is there no special level advancement for the Rogue class ? 

Thx a lot for this game.


----------



## WSmith

I printed out all the pocketmods. I have some suggestions (about format, not content) but I will post those later. 

In an attempt to make M20 more OD&Dish for my own selfish pleasure, and the fact that I am somewhat inspired to get _Dungeons of Castle Blackmoor_ and try M20 with it, my house rules so far are:

1. Roll for ability scores, 3d6 in order, (that's right! Suck it up!!!  ) 
2. Charm Person is also available for 1st level. I mean, what is good old school RPG'ing with out a choice of sleep or charm. 
3. All fighters have the cleave (feat) as an ability, (this came from Dave Arneson's recent game at a con in SF.)
4. I may go with 1 GP = 1 XP and 100 XP / HD, cause I don't understand ELs since I haven't tinkered with d20 since 2002. 

There are other things, but I have to give them some thought. I ran a quick solo earlier with a pair of PCs I made.


----------



## WSmith

Fr33man said:
			
		

> - the pdf version of the core rules and the ocketbook version are not the same (no spells DC in the pdf version for example)
> - When do you use Magic attack bonus (except for turning undead) ?




I noticed that about the DC of spells. 

The magic attack bonus (Mind mod + , added to 10, provides the DC for the spell save.


----------



## MeepoDM

WSmith said:
			
		

> I printed out all the pocketmods. I have some suggestions (about format, not content) but I will post those later.
> 
> In an attempt to make M20 more OD&Dish for my own selfish pleasure, and the fact that I am somewhat inspired to get _Dungeons of Castle Blackmoor_ and try M20 with it, my house rules so far are:




I like where you're goin' with this... 



			
				WSmith said:
			
		

> 1. Roll for ability scores, 3d6 in order, (that's right! Suck it up!!!  )




Hardcore!!  I like it!



			
				WSmith said:
			
		

> 2. Charm Person is also available for 1st level. I mean, what is good old school RPG'ing with out a choice of sleep or charm.




No breakin' a rule here - CP is still 1st level! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmPerson.htm)  

The spells on the PDF were just put there to give us an excuse to not have to lug around a PHB for spells.



			
				WSmith said:
			
		

> 3. All fighters have the cleave (feat) as an ability, (this came from Dave Arneson's recent game at a con in SF.)




This was one of my thoughts back before the Fighters bonus of +1/+1 became officially scalable.  I still think it's a good idea too 



			
				WSmith said:
			
		

> 4. I may go with 1 GP = 1 XP and 100 XP / HD, cause I don't understand ELs since I haven't tinkered with d20 since 2002.




I dig this idea.  There has been some discussion about how the "microsized" description of EL's might not work with lower level creatures.  Alternately, there is also this handy tool: http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm

Good to have you around, W!


----------



## bytor4232

Fr33man said:
			
		

> - in the last version of the pocketbook core rules, the letters are too small and the margins too large.




Well, I can't do anything about the margins as they are the smallest they can be and still be in print range.  I did however notice that I had an extra page, so I pushed the OGL off onto "Page Two" of the PDF by increasing the Font.  Untill Greywulf updates his site, you can get it here at my personal site.

As for the font on the suppliments, they are likely to stay Verdana 18pt, only because there is an aweful lot of information in the suppliments and the font is squeezed as big as I can get them, without the PocketMod spilling onto a 9th and 10th page for anything other than the OGL  

FYI, I updated the Modern Pocketmod again.  Just added the chainsaw, just because


----------



## MeepoDM

Fr33man said:
			
		

> Why is there no special level advancement for the Rogue class ?




I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this one.


----------



## Frostmarrow

greywulf said:
			
		

> A Goblin-class Fighter would be HD1d8+1, 5hp, AC15 with a +3 Pulse Laser doing 1d4 damage - at Figher scale. Multiply the damage by 10 if it's attacking a normal sized opponent (those Goblin lasers are nasty!) and similarly divide small-arms fire by 10 if someone wants to try and shoot it down with a blaster pistol. Similarly, divide the Goblin-class Fighter's damage by 10 if it's going against that big ugly Ogre-class Starship. It's divided by a whopping 50 if it wants to come up against the Ankheg-class Destroyer - and it multiplies the Ankheg's 2d6+7 Proton Beam Canon damage by 50. Goblin space dust.




"Goblin-class". It makes me laugh but it is logical in a minimalist kind of way. I like it. I don't see why you need to multiply damage (except against soft targets). I mean an ogre is bigger than a goblin as is, and a red wyrm even moreso. Hey, what about a wing of Hill Dwarves; armed with Battle Axe-torpedoes and Chainmail-forcefield?    (It has a build in coolness about it, even when using a less than perfect example.)


----------



## MeepoDM

Quiet day today!  I guess we're all controversied out? 

Any news on 'Temple of K'thu'uk'?  I've been holding out on my own module because I wanted to see how you put yours together first.  A sneak peek for ol' Meepo, perhaps?


----------



## greywulf

Funny you should ask, Meepo 

Temple of K'thu'uk is done and available in both big print pdf and good old Pocketmod formats.

Complete with Alligators, Winged Kobolds and alternate plotlines and options.

Enjoy, people. Sorry I've been offline today. Workstuff, y'know. It happens! 

I'm just uploading the files on the site now so the Core and Modern Pocketmods are the latest versions. Good work, guys!


----------



## MeepoDM

Excellent!  By an even odder chance, I just checked this thread after a long absence away from the 'puter today!   I'll read it over tonight after the kids are in bed!

The links on your webpage are broken, BTW.


----------



## greywulf

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> The links on your webpage are broken, BTW.




Checking now......... I'm updating the download page now...... 

EDIT: Never mind. Fixed!


----------



## MeepoDM

greywulf said:
			
		

> Checking now......... I'm updating the download page now......
> 
> EDIT: Never mind. Fixed!




Sorry, I meant the two links on the News page.  They're both missing the 'Microlite20' in the filename.  Never even thought to check the Downloads page!


----------



## greywulf

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> Sorry, I meant the two links on the News page.  They're both missing the 'Microlite20' in the filename.  Never even thought to check the Downloads page!




Heh. That's what I get for hand coding HTML from memory on an iPaq. Blame Microsoft; it's always their fault, even when it isn't.

I've fixed everything now. Really, honestly I have.

btw - this is a TOUGH adventure for 1st level characters, purely because it's the one I ran for my group and they are used switching between role-playing situations rather than fighting them, and using marine-level combat techniques if swords get drawn. It's amazing how an EL4 encounter can get demolished before your eyes if the characters throw three smokesticks and a flashbomb into every room before they enter........

You have been warned.

By the end of the adventure the players 2nd level and not far off third, with 2 dead comrades to bury. Not a bad tally, all told.


----------



## MeepoDM

greywulf said:
			
		

> hand coding HTML from memory on an iPaq




You are _so_ my hero.


----------



## greywulf

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> You are _so_ my hero.




Lol! You're easily pleased my friend.

So, what think you of the adventure? I'd forgotten just how darned hard it was to /write/ these things.......


----------



## MeepoDM

greywulf said:
			
		

> Lol! You're easily pleased my friend.




Truer words have never been spoken!   



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> So, what think you of the adventure? I'd forgotten just how darned hard it was to /write/ these things.......




I printed it out but haven't given it anything more than a first pass so far.  My two kids are being rambunctious (2 and 3) so I plan on reading it thoroughly over tonight and maybe guiding a quickie 4 man party through it to see how it runs.  My wife has tons of Tivo to catch up on so its the perfect chance for me to escape and geek out!

I will say I really like the layout.  Simple and attractive (like Microlite20!)  Now that I've seen it, I should have something in the works for this week!


----------



## greywulf

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> I will say I really like the layout.  Simple and attractive (like Microlite20!)  Now that I've seen it, I should have something in the works for this week!




Cool! Just so you know, the font is Verdana 14pt; it's about the minimum usable for Pocketmods while still being ok for full sized too. Anything bigger/smaller way would mean I'd have to create two versions. And that would never do.


----------



## greywulf

btw - just to throw a bucket of spanners into the mix - I've updated the whole EL thing in the Microlite20 Core doc. It now reads:

Encounter Level = Hit Dice of defeated monsters, or the given EL for the trap, situation, etc. Add +1 for each doubling of the number of foes. eg: 1 kobold = EL1. 2 kobolds = EL2. 4 kobolds = EL3, etc.

Note the +1 for doubling the foes. Simplifies the whole thing, and still works reasonably well at higher levels too.

Just so you know.

It means that two 4HD Ogres are EL5, four are EL6, etc. If you have an odd number of Ogres (Mommy Ogre, Daddy Ogre and Little Baby Ogre, maybe) then make it EL5 or 6 depending on how generous or evil you're feeling. 

That's asuming you tackle all three Ogres as a single combat. Picking off one at a time would be EL4, three times. That's because. Oh, I dunno. Just because, I guess  Make up your own reasons. I'm sure they'll be better than mine.

Similarly, a flight of 8 x 13HD red Dragons is EL16. Not that you'd be daft enough to try and take on 8 dragons at the same time 

ok, it's not by-the-book d20, but the whole silliness of HD/CR/EL calcualtions has to end somewhere!

If everyone nods to this change, that's it. Core is closed. Anything else is going in the Macropedia, so there!


----------



## MeepoDM

I love it, thanks!!  It's a bit high for low levels and bit low for high levels, but it still works reasonably well.  And it certainly beats the tar out of calculating it d20-style!

And that actually wraps up the final concern I had with the rules!!  Time to print this bad-boy on some quality paper!!


----------



## Darrell

greywulf said:
			
		

> Encounter Level = Hit Dice of defeated monsters, or the given EL for the trap, situation, etc. Add +1 for each doubling of the number of foes. eg: 1 kobold = EL1. 2 kobolds = EL2. 4 kobolds = EL3, etc.




That's about right.  That was really the last thing I was kind of questioning.



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> Note the +1 for doubling the foes. Simplifies the whole thing, and still works reasonably well at higher levels too.




Sure does!    



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> ok, it's not by-the-book d20, but the whole silliness of HD/CR/EL calcualtions has to end somewhere!




Agreed.    



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> If everyone nods to this change, that's it. Core is closed. Anything else is going in the Macropedia, so there!




Well, ya got my nod.      I'm ready to print out the full system's-worth of pdfs on some card stock and put 'em in my menu-folder thingies.  It'll be cool to have our 'master' documents all in one place for the game.      

The adventure looks good, too; though I haven't had a chance to read through it all the way, let alone run it.  

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## MeepoDM

The Temple of K'thu'uk is printed out in Pocketmod form and it looks GREAT!  I love the map being on the first page, it just gives it a nice touch and makes it noticeably different  from the other pocket mods I printed out.  Not difficult to read at all, either.  Now I just gotta find a nice quiet spot to crash!

By the way I love "K'thu'uk's Skull" ...what a great villain!!!


----------



## kibbitz

greywulf said:
			
		

> I agree the existing working is kinda kludgy. Maybe taking your wording but adding the caveat that all multiple attacks must still be at least +1 to be allowed, so +6/+1 is ok, but +6/+1/-4 isn't. That sets the limit to number of attacks without being too rules heavy.
> 
> "Character's may take additional attacks, but each extra attacks suffers a cumulative -5 penalty to its attack roll. All multiple attacks must still be at least +1 to be allowed. For example +6/+1 is ok, but +6/+1/-4 isn't."
> 
> Hmmmmmmmmm.......... that's still a bit unwieldy. Can anyone suggest a better turn of phrase?




Hmmm. Not sure if you're still interested, but if you are, how is this?



> A character may make additional attacks if their natural attack bonus *(replace with whichever term you're using)* exceeds +5. Additional attacks are performed at a penalty of -5 for every attack already made this turn. An additional attack can only be made if the character's natural attack bonus exceeds the current additional attack penalties for making the attack.
> 
> *Example:* Roland is an experienced bounty hunter with a natural attack bonus of +11. He was pursuing a escaping felon, but three of the felon's henchmen are attacking him now to buy time for the felon's escape.
> 
> Since time is of the essence, Roland decides to perform additional attacks to slay the henchmen as quickly as possible so he can return to his pursuit of the felon. Roland launches a normal attack at +11 on Henchman #1, killing him instantly. He then performs his first additional attack at +11 -5 = +6 on Henchman #2, slaying him as well.
> 
> Now, if Roland only had a natural attack bonus of +10, performing a second additional attack would not be possible since the current penalty would be -10. However, since Roland has a +11, he can perform one last attack at +11 -10 = +1. He manages to hit and slay Henchman #3. Roland quickly continues his pursuit.


----------



## greywulf

kibbitz said:
			
		

> Hmmm. Not sure if you're still interested, but if you are, how is this?




Thanks for the suggestion.

In the final version, I pared it down to:

If the total bonus is +6 or more a second attack can be made with a -5 penalty. If the total bonus is +11 or more a third attack can be made at -10. For example, if the total bonus is +12, three attacks can be made at +12/+7/+2.

Which seems to be clear enough, I hope!

In unrelated news, a re-read of the Temple adventure shows that I deleted a line out of Room 6 by accident. Either that or the proofreading faeries (EL15) attacked while I wasn't looking. It should read:

_A voice shouts as you open the door: “Stop, fiends and bow before the might of K'thu'uk , the Dragon Who Will Come Again!”. A clearly crazed Kobold wielding a green spear and facepaint points to a tapestry depicting a Green Dragon being beheaded by an Elf. This is *Klaldyk*, high priest of K'thu'uk. He begins to gesture wildly........_

I think it's obvious enough who this dude is, so I won't update the .pdf or pocketmod online until I or you find more errors. I'm sure the faeries will have left other mistakes in there


----------



## Greyharp

Oh no greywulf, the sky is falling. You've made the Temple adventure a wider format than the other pocketmods, it doesn't fit into my M20 slipcase, it's the end of the world!!!!


----------



## greywulf

Greyharp said:
			
		

> Oh no greywulf, the sky is falling. You've made the Temple adventure a wider format than the other pocketmods, it doesn't fit into my M20 slipcase, it's the end of the world!!!!




Fear not, Chicken Little! The pocketmod is exactly the same .pdf as the full sized version, just run through pdf2pocketmod.exe. You should (hopefully) be able to generate a new one that fits. If there's any problems, I'll post up the .rtf as well.

I won't let the sky fall. Not yet, anyway.


----------



## kibbitz

greywulf said:
			
		

> Thanks for the suggestion.
> 
> In the final version, I pared it down to:
> 
> If the total bonus is +6 or more a second attack can be made with a -5 penalty. If the total bonus is +11 or more a third attack can be made at -10. For example, if the total bonus is +12, three attacks can be made at +12/+7/+2.
> 
> Which seems to be clear enough, I hope!
> 
> In unrelated news, a re-read of the Temple adventure shows that I deleted a line out of Room 6 by accident. Either that or the proofreading faeries (EL15) attacked while I wasn't looking. It should read:
> 
> _A voice shouts as you open the door: “Stop, fiends and bow before the might of K'thu'uk , the Dragon Who Will Come Again!”. A clearly crazed Kobold wielding a green spear and facepaint points to a tapestry depicting a Green Dragon being beheaded by an Elf. This is *Klaldyk*, high priest of K'thu'uk. He begins to gesture wildly........_
> 
> I think it's obvious enough who this dude is, so I won't update the .pdf or pocketmod online until I or you find more errors. I'm sure the faeries will have left other mistakes in there




Definitely clear. I assume you are limiting it to a total of three attacks maximum intentionally though?


----------



## greywulf

kibbitz said:
			
		

> Definitely clear. I assume you are limiting it to a total of three attacks maximum intentionally though?




Not really, but I'm sure you can extrapolate the rest


----------



## Greyharp

greywulf said:
			
		

> Fear not, Chicken Little! The pocketmod is exactly the same .pdf as the full sized version, just run through pdf2pocketmod.exe. You should (hopefully) be able to generate a new one that fits. If there's any problems, I'll post up the .rtf as well.
> 
> I won't let the sky fall. Not yet, anyway.




Now I'm totally bamboozled. Not having been able to make the pocketmod programme successfully open any of my own creations, I cynically tried your suggestion with the A4 Temple file and, praise be to the gods, IT WORKED!!!   It is indeed now the same size as all the other pocketmods. 

So thinking things are looking up and I can stop banging my head against the wall, I tried opening up my own pdf creation with pdf2pocketmod.exe - nope, error messages all round. Tried changing the font to the Verdana you've been using, thinking maybe that was the problem, but no again.

Any ideas where I'm going wrong with my original document (either Word or the latter pdf)? What obscure and arcane secret methods are you using to generate a pdf2pocketmod.exe friendly file?


----------



## greywulf

Greyharp said:
			
		

> Now I'm totally bamboozled. Not having been able to make the pocketmod programme successfully open any of my own creations, I cynically tried your suggestion with the A4 Temple file and, praise be to the gods, IT WORKED!!!   It is indeed now the same size as all the other pocketmods.




Obviously pdf2pocketmod is pro-European. Obvious, really. Try creating your .pdfs in A4 format, then converting them. If that doen't work, sing "God Save the Queen" in a loud voice, off key. That always works.

EDIT: Yes, I used to work in tech support. It's amazing the things you can get people to do over the phone.


----------



## Cymew

I have already e-mailed the creator of this wonderful new game and told him he has done something great. Now I have read, and re-read, the rules again and gotten a crazy idea...

I have T1-4 The Temple of Elemental Evil, sitting on a shelf beside me. Anyone tried to combine the goodness of M20 with true gonzo old school yet? 

Any ideas on 1st ed conversions? Shouldn't be too hard, eh? Or am I struck by hubris and ignoring something important about running T1-4 with M20?


----------



## greywulf

Cymew said:
			
		

> I have T1-4 The Temple of Elemental Evil, sitting on a shelf beside me. Anyone tried to combine the goodness of M20 with true gonzo old school yet?




Sounds a perfect candidate for the M20 treatment. I'd love to hear people's tales from Hommlet.

I'd suggest no conversion is needed though - that's the whole idea behind M20  Just play them straight, estimating the creatures as you go using the given HD and hp. Attack bonus = HD (or maybe a little more) and use the given damage. That's combat sorted.

Use the treasure and traps as-is, just using the skills (mainly phys+STR or phys+DEX and sub+DEX)  for saving throws where required. Guestimate the DCs as you go along.

Works for me................


----------



## Cymew

Attack bonus = HD is a good suggestion! I felt there had to be some issues, even if it should be possible to do on-the-fly, that I hadn't thought of. 

I'll go hunt for some guys who wants to visit Hommlet...

My regular D20 game went south this weekend since a player didn't have the decency to warn about not showing up. Maybe I should kick him out and start a M20 game in Hommlet with the other players.


----------



## Cymew

WSmith said:
			
		

> 4. I may go with 1 GP = 1 XP and 100 XP / HD, cause I don't understand ELs since I haven't tinkered with d20 since 2002.




I like this kind of suggestion, for proper old school experience. But isn't 100 XP/HD a bit much? I thougth that levelling up took 10 x your level XP. A 2 HD monster would then give you XP for 20 levels! Am I missing something?


----------



## bytor4232

Cymew said:
			
		

> I have already e-mailed the creator of this wonderful new game and told him he has done something great. Now I have read, and re-read, the rules again and gotten a crazy idea...
> 
> I have T1-4 The Temple of Elemental Evil, sitting on a shelf beside me. Anyone tried to combine the goodness of M20 with true gonzo old school yet?
> 
> Any ideas on 1st ed conversions? Shouldn't be too hard, eh? Or am I struck by hubris and ignoring something important about running T1-4 with M20?




Most 1e/2e conversions have been done right here at Enworld.  Behold, the Creature Catalog

There is also some more creatures here:

http://pandius.com/ccci.html


----------



## greywulf

Good resource links, thanks, bytor.

Now on to other busines.........

I'm going to start work on the House Rules Macropedia. Or rather, _we_ are  I'm going to put together a wiki over the next day or two to store the House Rules. It'll be broken down into sections like Race, Class, Skills, etc. Feel free to drop your own rules (and edit existing ones to improve the wording). The goal is freedom of choice.  If you want to add more sections, or whatever, please do so. This is a completely open, peer-review based project.

At regular intervals, I'll take the wiki and kick out of downloadable .pdf 

Stay tuned for more news, and get those House Rules ready.


----------



## rom90125

I wanted to throw my 2-cents in and compliment you for a fine, lite system!  Great work by everyone involved.


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> Good resource links, thanks, bytor.
> 
> Now on to other busines.........
> 
> I'm going to start work on the House Rules Macropedia. Or rather, _we_ are  I'm going to put together a wiki over the next day or two to store the House Rules. It'll be broken down into sections like Race, Class, Skills, etc. Feel free to drop your own rules (and edit existing ones to improve the wording). The goal is freedom of choice.  If you want to add more sections, or whatever, please do so. This is a completely open, peer-review based project.
> 
> At regular intervals, I'll take the wiki and kick out of downloadable .pdf
> 
> Stay tuned for more news, and get those House Rules ready.




I rebuilt the PocketMod based on the latest PDF:

http://arthur.jfmi.net/m20/Pocketmod/Microlite20 - Core - Pocketmod.pdf

The RTF on your site needs to be updated, its still the old version.


----------



## MeepoDM

Cool, thanks Bytor.  I've been getting better at folding these up so I'm ready to print out a handful of these things for play.  Your "8 page character sheet" is mighty handy as well; I'm currently using it for NPC's & Hirelings.


----------



## bytor4232

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> Your "8 page character sheet" is mighty handy as well; I'm currently using it for NPC's & Hirelings.




Thats exactly what its for


----------



## Land Outcast

> I have T1-4 The Temple of Elemental Evil, sitting on a shelf beside me. Anyone tried to combine the goodness of M20 with true gonzo old school yet?



 

I just had the flashy idea of a ToEE... actually a full-blown conversion to M20...

is that what you're suggesting?


----------



## Cymew

Well, I wasn't doing much more than suggesting an interesting test for M20 as a vehicle for some old school gaming, which is what I do with D&D anyway. 

Typing it all up is too much work, but thinking about how to do it on the fly is interesting. 

I guess the old AC is just 20-AC and take their HD+1 as a Attack Bonus and run with it. 

The idea with GP for XP is interesting as well, but I didn't understand it as written. I'll think a bit on it myself, though.


----------



## rom90125

I became so inspired by these micro-rules that I've decided to convert my home campaign (and by 'home' I mean the game I am running for my 9-year old twins and wife) to the Microlite20 rules.  The twins have only played one session ever, so the change to these rules should not throw them off.  My wife is sticking to her guns and still wants to play a bard, so I am going to reward her strong desire for role-playing by creating a bard class for this rule set.  And because the kids are so new to D&D, I am going to use minis in conjunction with Dungeon Tiles to create a vast sewer system complete with sludge and dire rats.  

If this goes well I plan on using the Microlite20 rules for single-shot adventures when my regular campaign needs a break.  I'm sure my old-school players will appreciate the retro-feel.


----------



## rom90125

a question about a Rogue's Sneak attack:

the rule states:
"If they successfully Sneak (usually sub+DEX, but depends on situation) up on a foe they can add their Subterfuge skill rank to the damage of their first attack".


If I understand this correctly, a rogue would roll d20 + Sub +Dex.  If the Rogue rolls higher than the opponent's AC, then they could Sneak.

Is this correct?

Thanks.


----------



## bytor4232

rom90125 said:
			
		

> a question about a Rogue's Sneak attack:
> 
> the rule states:
> "If they successfully Sneak (usually sub+DEX, but depends on situation) up on a foe they can add their Subterfuge skill rank to the damage of their first attack".
> 
> 
> If I understand this correctly, a rogue would roll d20 + Sub +Dex.  If the Rogue rolls higher than the opponent's AC, then they could Sneak.
> 
> Is this correct?
> 
> Thanks.




I would say you need to beat their opposing spot check (Sub + Mind)


----------



## greywulf

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> I would say you need to beat their opposing spot check (Sub + Mind)




Correct, bytor. If the poor mook doesn't notice them (ie, fails a Spot (sub+MIND) check), they get hit hard.

Meanwhile, work is still ongoing on the Macropedia. If y'all want a sneak peek, hope over to http://wiki.greywulf.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/Macropedia/Microlite20Macropedia. Comments, feedback and contributions welcome 

I'm going to add in the piccies from the Fans of Microlite20 page then redirect http://home.greywulf.net/m20 to point at the Macropedia when it's good to go.

I'll update the .rtf and post the latest version in a while (heading out now) and check all of the download links worked. I wrote that page around 2am, so no promises!


----------



## greywulf

Minor update: I've updated the .rtf so it's the latest version. Same for the Pocketmod edition of the Core Rules; thanks again, Bytor. 

All of the links on the download page in the Macropedia work. Woohoo!

Oh, and there's a plain text version of the Core Rules to be found at http://wiki.greywulf.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/Macropedia/CoreRules for those html junkies out there. 

Have fun. My next game is going to be Wednesday night. I'm planning a Microlite20 Modern spy spoof. Yes, "Chicken Royale" is alive and you have been warned. The plot will involve diamonds smuggled in a frozen chicken, the West Korean ambassador (so's not to offend anyone, I'm using thinly disguised country names, ok?), a bigass anti-satellite laser and a fight in a restaurant as the climax. Lots of improvised weapons. Chopsticks at dawn, anyone?


----------



## WSmith

Cymew said:
			
		

> I like this kind of suggestion, for proper old school experience. But isn't 100 XP/HD a bit much? I thougth that levelling up took 10 x your level XP. A 2 HD monster would then give you XP for 20 levels! Am I missing something?




Oops, I forgot to mention that I am using a different XP table too. Some of you might recognize this  :

1...2000
2...4000
3...8000
4...16000
5...32000
6...64000
etc. 

About the gold and treasure XP, they charcaters must safely remove the spoils from the locale  / threat that it came from, i.e, the dungeon, lair, etc. to a "safe location" , a town, base camp, the Keep, etc.


----------



## WSmith

Cymew said:
			
		

> Now I have read, and re-read, the rules again and gotten a crazy idea...
> 
> I have T1-4 The Temple of Elemental Evil, sitting on a shelf beside me. Anyone tried to combine the goodness of M20 with true gonzo old school yet?
> 
> Any ideas on 1st ed conversions? Shouldn't be too hard, eh? Or am I struck by hubris and ignoring something important about running T1-4 with M20?




See my earlier posts.  

I am assuming that you are refering to the original T1-4, (Not "Return to..." or some such). Judging by what I have experimented with so far, there should be no problems converting. 

Armor Class = 20 - Text AC. So an AC of 4 in the module would be an AC of 16 in M20. 

If a saving throw is required, I would off the top of my head say:

Paralyzation, Poison, Death Magic  = STR + Phys
Petrification / Polymorph = STR + Phys
Rod, Staff, Wand = DEX + Knowledge
Breath Weapon = DEX + Phys
Spells = Mind + Knowledge


----------



## greywulf

WSmith said:
			
		

> If a saving throw is required, I would off the top of my head say:
> 
> Breath Weapon = DEX + Phys




yep, spot on. 

Reflex saves are usually phys+DEX
Fortitude is phys+STR
Will is just MIND, or maybe com+MIND. Whichever.

Mind you, the flexibility is there so it's entirely possible to use different saves against the same thing:

GM: "The Evil Magi chants and a fireball errupts toward you........."
Fighter: "I lean into the impact using my martial training to absorb the worst of the blast." (phys+STR)
Rogue: "I dive out of the way!" (phys+DEX)
Magi: "I counterspell with a chant" (com+MIND)

See?


----------



## WSmith

Greywulf, looks like you replied while I was editing.  I added the rest of the AD&D saves to the list.


----------



## WSmith

While you bring this up this is a perfect time to ask. As I have said before, I have not done a thing with d20 since simetime in 2002. So, I want to clarify something...



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> Mind you, the flexibility is there so it's entirely possible to use different saves against the same thing:
> 
> GM: "The Evil Magi chants and a fireball errupts toward you........."
> Fighter: "I lean into the impact using my martial training to absorb the worst of the blast." (phys+STR)
> Rogue: "I dive out of the way!" (phys+DEX)
> Magi: "I counterspell with a chant" (com+MIND)
> 
> See?




The target number for these charcaters to beat is the foe-wizard's Magical Attack bonus + 10, correct? So If he had a + 2 bonus to MIND, was 5th level, the DC for this spell would be 17, correct?


----------



## Cymew

greywulf,

All this talk about experience have made me think a bit about the experience system. In all D&D editions I know of, the experience curve have never been linear. In M20 it is. Is this intentional?


----------



## Cymew

WSmith,

That table of XP changed the environment a bit! Now I see how 100 XP/HD could work. I'll pluck that system and put it into my Hommlet M20 test.

I'm afraid I'm to young to have been gaming when 1st ed was new, but I can guess where that xp table comes from...


----------



## MeepoDM

WSmith said:
			
		

> Oops, I forgot to mention that I am using a different XP table too. Some of you might recognize this




LONG LIVE THE FIGHTING MAN!


----------



## Cymew

WSmith said:
			
		

> See my earlier posts.
> 
> I am assuming that you are refering to the original T1-4, (Not "Return to..." or some such). Judging by what I have experimented with so far, there should be no problems converting.
> 
> [/list]




"Return to..."? How can you return from "Tomb of Horros" and ToEE?


----------



## WSmith

Cymew said:
			
		

> I'm afraid I'm to young to have been gaming when 1st ed was new, but I can guess where that xp table comes from...




Meepo is right. It is the Fighting Man table from Volume I, Men & Magic, in the Original D&D boxed set. Note that it does not continue on the same numeric path. Here is the whole table:

1...2000
2...4000
3...8000
4...16000
5...32000
6...64000
7...120000
8...240000
9...360000

Add 120,000 XP fpr each level above 9th.


----------



## WSmith

Some other thing I thought of, thanks to Tunnels & Trolls 7th edition, is the pure magic-mana drain. 

In M20. two dueling magi may, instead of tossing spells at each other, opt to roll an oppossing test with a d20 (or alternativly a d12 if d20 is too harsh) and apply their Magical Attack bonus. The wizard with higher of the two scores has drained an amount of HP equal to the difference of the test result, from the loser of the test; the one with the lower score.


----------



## WSmith

Cymew said:
			
		

> "Return to..."? How can you return from "Tomb of Horros" and ToEE?




Perfect point.


----------



## MeepoDM

WSmith said:
			
		

> Perfect point.




No kidding!  Only if by "return" they mean someone drags your headless, charred, and punctured corpse back to the mouth of the dungeon before making a run for it!


----------



## WSmith

Just to be clear, I am not lobbying for any of my wacky posts to be included in the Core Rules. I like the base rules the way they are. 

One other thing I may do is use simplified missile weapon ranges, since distance is abstract in M20 anyway. I think AGoT d20 does this, (can anyone confirm that?)


----------



## Fr33man

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this one.




Well. 
Fighters gain +1 to their attack and damage rolls at level 5, 10, 15 ...
Clerics and Magi gain access to new spells.
And Rogues have no special level advancement.

And what about to have a more "beautiful" character sheet ?


----------



## WSmith

This is the proto-type of the GM screen I am making. I need to add more to it, and use a picture that is not property of someone else.


----------



## MeepoDM

Love the cover!!!  Hard to make out what the contents on the inside are, but as far as the front goes, it looks really cool.


----------



## greywulf

WSmith said:
			
		

> This is the proto-type of the GM screen I am making. I need to add more to it, and use a picture that is not property of someone else.




FANTASTIC! W (can I call you W? Thanks.), please post up the files when you're done. That's  just too darned good to ignore.

As regards putting a non-linear XP system (or a linear one, for that matter) onto M20, I'm all for it. Post it up in the Macropedia and let's open it up for review.

Same for weapon ranges. Just.....please.....measure them in feet, or centimetres, or furlongs or whatever, not squares. If anyone tries to turn M20 into a board miniatures game I will have them publicly flogged then exiled to Canada. Or from Canada, if they  live there already.


----------



## WSmith

Thanks! I am still editing it, but when it is done, I will post it. Sadly, the Otus art is just a placeholder for some other art I will have to find, as it can't be used without permission.


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> Or from Canada, if they  live there already.




Hey!  Canada is an improvement from where I'm living!  Well, maby more of a lateral move.  Michigan is pretty much part of Canada, the only reason we're part of the US is we pay less taxes this way.


----------



## greywulf

Hey! I just had a thought. It's a good thought. It's the bestest thought ever. No, it's better than that. It's the bestest thought ever in the history of thoughtness.

I'm going to create, just for Microlite20, THE ADVENTURE. The one. The one that's going to encapsulate everything about M20, in a single adventure.

And I'm going to call it........

"The World's Smallest Dungeon"!

Do you think it will sell?


----------



## MeepoDM

Hehe, I like it.  Smaller than 'The Orc & the Pie?'


----------



## greywulf

Exactly. But without the pie. Or the Orc.

Maybe something along the lines of:






1. Empty

Next year I plan to release the World's Smallest City too.......






1. Shop. Empty.


Is it possible to take minimalism too far?


----------



## bytor4232

yes


----------



## MeepoDM

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> yes




Hehe is this post serious or just ironic?


----------



## bytor4232

He asked if you can take minimilism too far, just putting my 2 copper in the pot


----------



## Cymew

The World's Largest Dungeon deserves to be made fun of. 

BTW, what can you put on a DM screen for such a simple game as M20?


----------



## greywulf

Cymew said:
			
		

> The World's Largest Dungeon deserves to be made fun of.
> 
> BTW, what can you put on a DM screen for such a simple game as M20?




The entire rules, maybe? 

We could have a first - a game where the GM screen _is_ the rules, complete with monsters, spell lists and equipment. Wouldn't that be cool - gaming with no rulebooks at all, just a screen to hide behind.

Hmmmmmm..........


----------



## Greyharp

greywulf said:
			
		

> The entire rules, maybe?
> 
> We could have a first - a game where the GM screen _is_ the rules, complete with monsters, spell lists and equipment. Wouldn't that be cool - gaming with no rulebooks at all, just a screen to hide behind.
> 
> Hmmmmmm..........





Brilliant idea lol


----------



## WSmith

This is what I have so far. Honestly, I am havig trouble trying to decide what else to put on here. I am going to put the money rates, but I am trying to figure out the way to get the weapons list to look like the other tables with Futura font. 

To fold it:

1. Place it face down, landscape style.

2. Fold in half by bringing the top to the bottom. 

3. Now make sure the picture is facing down. 

4. Each end has to fold into the middle. 

5. From there, fold the entire thing in half.  

6. Open up and Enjoy!


----------



## MeepoDM

That is so friggin' cool, WSmith!!  Thanks for posting it.  Perfect little 'fold up and cram in your pocket' device to hide those dice rolls from the players!!!

Printing one now!


----------



## RFisher

greywulf said:
			
		

> The entire rules, maybe?
> 
> We could have a first - a game where the GM screen _is_ the rules, complete with monsters, spell lists and equipment. Wouldn't that be cool - gaming with no rulebooks at all, just a screen to hide behind.
> 
> Hmmmmmm..........




Well, they did have a "the character sheet is the rules" contest over at 1KM1KT.


----------



## greywulf

W, that's great! You guys never cease to amaze me.........

Pssst....I'm working converting the FUDGE 4x5 magic system  Magic system over to M20 right now for the Macropedia, at the request of one of my players. He's thinking about running some kind of Ars Magica-style game using M20 as the core rules. Nice.


----------



## greywulf

greywulf said:
			
		

> Pssst....I'm working converting the FUDGE 4x5 magic system  Magic system over to M20 right now for the Macropedia, at the request of one of my players. He's thinking about running some kind of Ars Magica-style game using M20 as the core rules. Nice.




I'm quoting myself again. Sheesh.

Here's the first draft. I'll playtest it later, this is just off the top of my head. Kinda wordy for M20, but it might be useful to other folks out there.

Comments welcome!


----------



## WSmith

For those that have actually run a M20 game with other players, is it possible to get some kind of actual play type story hour posts so the rest of us can share the fun?   I would like to know how the players are enjoying this.


----------



## Darrell

Oh, my Lord.    

WSmith, that GM screen is one of the coolest things so far.    

'Wulf, that Macropedia is lookin' good.      As soon as I can finish it up, I have a new pdf regarding an m20 Pantheon of Deities, with information on clerics of each god.  I'll post it when I finish it, so you can maybe add it to the Macropedia.

Keep up the great work!!

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## MeepoDM

How are you guys handling Full Attacks for monsters?  I've noticed that all of the monsters in the m20 documents have been shortened to single attacks (the gargoyle for example only attacks with 1 claw) only, but I'd really like to bring in multiple attacks again for the monsters when they aren't moving around a bunch.  Individual DM's call?


----------



## Bretbo

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> Individual DM's call?




Thats how I'd handle it.  If someone wants to have a "hard rule", maybe a monster has number of attacks equivalent to their number of hit dice, up to the number of attacks listed.  So a 6d10 hit die creature with stomp and tail whip would get two attacks (6 for hit die up to the number of different attacks it has, 2).  

Not a great solution, but it should work.


----------



## greywulf

I just give 'em one hit. Blam. Move on. Next round. Fast, one second stuff. Keeps the adrenalin going and the players on their feet. Or swinging on the ropes. Wherever.

Simple


----------



## WSmith

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> How are you guys handling Full Attacks for monsters?  I've noticed that all of the monsters in the m20 documents have been shortened to single attacks (the gargoyle for example only attacks with 1 claw) only, but I'd really like to bring in multiple attacks again for the monsters when they aren't moving around a bunch.  Individual DM's call?




GM's fiat and logic based on the monster design. Give the gargoyle a claw/claw/bite routine. Monsters with weapons only get one attack unless exception to the rule is needed.


----------



## Darrell

Bretbo said:
			
		

> If someone wants to have a "hard rule", maybe a monster has number of attacks equivalent to their number of hit dice, up to the number of attacks listed.  So a 6d10 hit die creature with stomp and tail whip would get two attacks (6 for hit die up to the number of different attacks it has, 2).






			
				WSmith said:
			
		

> GM's fiat and logic based on the monster design. Give the gargoyle a claw/claw/bite routine. Monsters with weapons only get one attack unless exception to the rule is needed.




Both approaches would work quite nicely, and would even be easily made complimentary, and should probably make it into the Macropedia.

Personally, though, I'm in agreement with Greywulf.  One attack, and move the hell on.  The faster combat goes, the better I like it.

Regards, 
Darrell


----------



## snikle

greywulf, just discovered your little game and I want to say that I really like it, appreciate the amount of work you have put into it. 
I have been a fan on james' simple20 rules for a while now, tried to get a game going numerous times (hard to convince those d20 3.5 geeks to try anything else). I think I am going to give this one a shot and see if I can get a few one shots going using m20 in an online game using MapTool. I really like the magic system he has come up with for simple20, and might try implementing it into m20.

Anyway, good game, thanks for sharing!


----------



## greywulf

Snikle, thanks for the kind words. That's currency around here.

I'm running Chicken Royale tonight, using the Microlite20 Modern rules for the first time to generate secret agents. The characters are going to be designated code numbers a'la 007 based upon their stat bonuses. So, a STR12, DEX14 MIND 10 hero would be Agent 120. Geddit? I'm going to write their numbers onto badges which the players wear. That way, I can see their stat bonuses all the time during the game. 

In effect, the player _becomes_ the character sheet. I tried to get around the metaphysical abstraction of that, but my head hurt so I stopped.

And yes, that would mean that James Bond would be STR10, DEX10, MIND24. I'm telling them that certain Agent numbers are reserved from a legacy system and that's one of them. So now they know.

I'll write about the game tomorrow.


----------



## EditorBFG

Darrell said:
			
		

> Personally, though, I'm in agreement with Greywulf.  One attack, and move the hell on.  The faster combat goes, the better I like it.



You know, you could do what one of the video games did for monks (NWN? I don't recall) and just give everyone who would normally get multiple attacks the equivalent of Cleave or Great Cleave. No need to track what different attack bonuses are, as long as they are dropping targets they keep rolling. Deadly but simple and efficient.


----------



## snikle

I agree with Greywulf, I like the simple 1 attack and move on, supplement the fighter with the bonuses every 5 levels so he can deal some damage without slowing the game down.

Why does everyone want to up a darned feat into the game? 

edit:
dang, forgot to mention I am setting up a PbP game over at FUM using this, got two sign-ups already.


----------



## MeepoDM

Feats, shmeats, I just don't want to shortchange my monsters with weenie attacks!!


----------



## EditorBFG

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> Feats, shmeats, I just don't want to shortchange my monsters with weenie attacks!!



That's why I'm saying, everyone with an attack bonus of +6 or higher could have Cleave and everyone with +11 or higher could have Great Cleave. Instead of tracking separate bonuses and what not. You don't need to call Cleave or Great Cleave or add feats to the game, just use the mechanic.


----------



## snikle

Your the DM, how do you cheat your monsters?

player1: hey how does the umber hulk get to attack twice?
player2: ya, not fair!
DM: oh you are right, he gets three attacks! thanks!


----------



## greywulf

Meepo, trust me on this. Try the combat using single attacks in a round. If Mr Owlbear gets 2 claw attacks for  +9 melee (1d6+5) and bite +4 melee (1d8+2), choose which to use and do just that attack, then move on.

Your players are happy because their turn comes round quicker and they aren't just watching you roll dice. You're happier because you don't have to keep all those numbers and bonuses in your head, freeing up your time to inject some role-playing into the combat. Hey, when was that last time _that_ happened?! 

I've finished the first session of _Chicken Royale_, and I'm beat! Went well, but we left it where Todd Dreamspirit (Agent 311, native American Tough Hero) had been cpatured and about to be encased in liquid diamond. The other heroes (Mari something-or-other, Jack Honour and Edgar Collins, Agents 134, 221 and 310 respectively) are planning to break him out using by using pieces of the diamond coated chicken (did I mention that?) to cut their way into Colonel Anders' base.

More details tomorrow...............


----------



## snikle

> Roll 4d6, drop lowest dice. Total remaining 3 dice and allocate to one of the stats. Repeat for remaining stats.




*** seems I was wrong, hmmm, out of body experience, ignore me ***


----------



## snikle

Well, looks like my PbP game using m20 is getting off the ground, got 3 character made of it already and at least 1 more planning to after the holiday. A pretty good start considering our forum is nearly exclusive to D&D 3.5, so thanks for putting this out and helping me get a game going. So with luck, you will have some comments from my group regarding the rules soon.


----------



## greywulf

Great! 

I'll do a short write-up of last night's game later today too.


----------



## Griogre

Just a variant suggestion.  I have not played/run this yet as I just stumbled accross it the other day.  Seems to be a fine light system - and very compatable with all the existing d20 material - which gives it a huge boost in my eyes.  One of the nice things because of that you could actually switch back and forth between the two systems in the same adventure, maybe just using the full d20 rules vs. the BBEG.  Not sure I would ever do this because of the HP translation problem, but still a tribute to the compatibility of the systems.

On the Rogue I have read some feel him a little under balanced.  I was thinking a +1 Suf per 5 levels might help the class similar to the other classes little boosts.  I'm mildly leery of doing this because of the effect on the sneak attack so maybe just apply it to skill rolls only.  This would help the class truely be the skill miester.


----------



## greywulf

Interesting thought. I'm sure it could be possible to switch between d20 and Microlite20. I'll think more about that, thanks  Hmmmmmmm..........

As regards powering up Rogues every five levels, they do get +1 sub (and all other skills) every single level so they should always have the edge anyhow. There's nothing wrong with a little buffing here and there though. I'm going to work on adding more House Rules into the Macropedia tomorrow, so I'll drop this suggestion in then.

Last night's Microlite20 Modern game ("Codename: Chicken Royale") was a blast. The players spent a lot of time in-character, and very, very little time bothering with the rules at all. In total, we had about 20 skill checks and three combats (two minor, one big) in about four hours of gaming, so rules-light was definitely the way to go. The rest of the time it was role-playing all the way.

It's been a while since I ran a game set in the modern age but we dived in. I told the players that they were Agents for MI5, fresh out of training. They generated characters and I asked them to describe where they were in the UK. Todd (native American living in London) was rock climbing in Wales. Edgar was in the weapons range, Jack was in a Casino, losing. Mari was...errrr....with someone....... 

Their cellphones beeped, a coded message instructing them to report in, immediately. They all make their way to MI5 HQ where D (their section Head) is surprised to see them. There's been no call-in. All MI5 agents are similarly in the building, all at the same time.

That's when large firetrucks pull outside and start spraying the doors and windows with liquid diamond. No, really. MI5 is paralyzed, all UK-based Agents snared in their own building. 

The four characters manage to get out thanks to a handy ventilation shaft, completely against orders. 

Anyhow, to cut a long-ish story short before this turns into a Story Hour; Colonel Samuel Anders has stolen the process to manufacture a form of liquid diamond that hardens on contact. With it he can both destabilise the world economy and create military-grade armour and weaponry, all at the same time (bwah, ha ha ha, etc). The adventurers confront him first in a restaurant (hence the diamond coated whole roast chicken - the secret's in the formula, dontcha know!). He escapes in a diamond-coated limousine, they trace him to his coastal hideaway, his beautiful guardian Angel (imagine Halle Berry with membranes under her arms so she can glide) captures Todd - wherein this session ended.

Now I've got to figure out what's going to happen _next_ week!

I played it straight using Microlite20 Modern, just making up the stats for the bad guys as I went along. I'd got nothing in front of my except a rough plot outline, some notes about Cool Stuff (like the diamond limo) and the Microlite20 rules. It was all I needed to run the game. There were no rules questions, no fights over interpretations of AoO or whether this or that was in range. It just.....worked.

Now you know


----------



## WSmith

EditorBFG said:
			
		

> That's why I'm saying, everyone with an attack bonus of +6 or higher could have Cleave and everyone with +11 or higher could have Great Cleave. Instead of tracking separate bonuses and what not. You don't need to call Cleave or Great Cleave or add feats to the game, just use the mechanic.




WAIT A SECOND!!! That might be one of the best ideas for a M20 house rule that I have seen yet! I peronsally do not like multiple attacks, seeing as the combat round is supposed to be abstract, where there is supposed to be swings and feinting and parries and such, and not (1 roll = 1 swing). I know some of you guys that want to keep M20 close to d20 would like to keep the additional attacks. For me, I am seeing M20 as its own game so I am not concerned about loosing some d20isms. This fits me perfect. 

_If the attack bonus is +6 (or optionally any fighter), and the attacker drops or slays a foe, he is granted one additional attack against another opponent in melee weapon striking distance that round. If the bonus is +11 or better (or +6 for fighters), as long as the combatant is dropping foes, he can continue attacking others until one does not fall to the might of his weapon._

I am going to give this a shot. I think I would like this better than keeping track of the whole +12/+7/+2 scheme. Plus, as greywulf says, one attack roll speeds up play.


----------



## greywulf

Dropping into the Macropedia, with minor wording changes here. 

I'll playtest this too - it might work very well for Conan-style "against the hordes" style games, in particular. 

I've changed the wording to make this a melee only option until I've playtested it - I'm not sure of the idea of a guy with a longbow being able to drop infinite goblins in a single round


----------



## WSmith

greywulf said:
			
		

> Dropping into the Macropedia, with minor wording changes here.
> 
> I'll playtest this too - it might work very well for Conan-style "against the hordes" style games, in particular.
> 
> I've changed the wording to make this a melee only option until I've playtested it - I'm not sure of the idea of a guy with a longbow being able to drop infinite goblins in a single round




Oh yes, silly me. It MUST be a melee only option, for many reasons. 

1. Missile fire  = little risk to archer. Melee fighter is toe-to-toe in a struggle for a bath of crimson death!

2. The idea of "cleave" is that the momentium of your blow has not only cloven through one enemy, spraying ichor and blood about, but has passed quickly into a strike upon another encroaching foe!   

3. Conan says kill 'em by the horde!!!

4. In old style D&D (I hear the "here we go again" sighs,  ) a fighter had multiple attacks equal to his level, against foes with less than 1 HD. Though mechanically different in M20, this option closely resemble the "fighting sweep!"


----------



## WSmith

Greywulf, one note, this clipped from the Macropedia:



> If the melee attack bonus is +6 and the attacker drops or slays a foe, he is granted one additional attack against another opponent in melee weapon striking distance that round. If the bonus is +11 or better (or +6 for fighters), as long as the combatant is dropping foes, he can continue attacking others until one does not fall to the might of his weapon.




I don't know if you meant to leave out the other text about the fighter getting this at first level, but the text presented above does provide an interesting take. 

+6: for all but figther = one addtional cleave attack //// fighter = unlimited
+11: unlimted for all. 

I have to think about it. At first I was going to give as optionally stated, the fighter cleave at 1st level so they could stand out. But, I will give this idea a thought.


----------



## bytor4232

I thought you guys might find this wizards article interesting:

http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mi/20061123a


----------



## greywulf

Range bands. Oh, that idea is _so_ stolen from Traveller, circa 1977! The thieves! Give them back! 

Heh. They do work though. I'll give some thought into how this could work with M20.

I've also modified the text a little for cleaving:



> If the melee attack bonus is +6 and the attacker drops or slays a foe, he is granted one additional attack against another opponent in melee weapon striking distance that round. As long as the combatant is dropping foes, he can continue attacking others until one does not fall to the might of his weapon.




In the spirit of zen simplicity, let's just say anyone can keep on hitting so long as they're more than +6 to hit, and there's foes around. That'll keep the barbarians happy too. Bear in mind that Fighters get a plus one, and are usually high STR too, so that all adds to their to hit tobonus  start with - it's quite likely they'll be at +6 at first level already.

Watch out for those times the Monsters do the same thing to the players though.......:evilgrin:

Oh, and I've put up some rules on the Macropedia for Mass Combat Made Easy . Approach with an open mind. It works, I promise! I think the examples explain the rules better than the rules do, as ever.


----------



## greywulf

Yep. Memory served me right. 

I present exhibit One:

This is from Traveller Book 1:Characters and Combat, 1802 edition (or thereabouts):






And exhibit Two, from the WoTC site :






I love it when Good Ideas in Role-playing get re-discovered. It works very well for starship combat where the "ranges" can be thousands of miles apart, so I'm pretty sure it'll work well enough for bows'n'arrows too.

Yeh, this would work well in M20 for those times range really was critical.


----------



## EditorBFG

WSmith said:
			
		

> WAIT A SECOND!!! That might be one of the best ideas for a M20 house rule that I have seen yet!



Glad I was finally able to contribute something helpful, as so far I've most just kind of lurked on this thread, while watching it carefully, because I am such a fan of the idea of Microlite 20.

I've been trying to think of a simplified version of Sanity rules for a Microlite 20 CoC, so far all I've come up with is a new variable stat that makes you more or less likely to attack a friendly target in any given round. Simple, but I don't know. Thing is, I would like to make it so you could use d20 stats (including Sanity Loss) for monsters and mythos threats right out of the book, with little or no real conversion, just like other d20 monsters in Microlite 20.

It's neat watching this process.


----------



## greywulf

Mmmmmmmmm.......Sanity............... 

I'd use MINDx5 as your starting SAN, then run SAN checks by the book. That's one mechanic that's soooooo Call of Cthulhu even the d20 version didn't dare fiddle with it. I'd be inclined to agree with them, just this once.

Darn. Now I have an urge to run an adventure involving a Migo.

To put everyone in the impending Christmas spirit, I offer up this page: Cthulhu Christmas Carols


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> I love it when Good Ideas in Role-playing get re-discovered. It works very well for starship combat where the "ranges" can be thousands of miles apart, so I'm pretty sure it'll work well enough for bows'n'arrows too.




Indeed!  Awesome catch!  Thats funny how similar they are.  I was thinking about using range bands with my tabletop players, but they are so into minis its not funny.  In fact, they make me draw out the ENTIRE dungeon on a piece of plexiglass or battlemat-sheets.  I've tried to switch to minis for combat clarification only, but no deal.  Its really annoying.  My 6 year old loves playing with just her immagination and dice, yet the 35+ year olds want to push lead and plastic figurines around the table all night.  Its like playing f-ing pictionary.


----------



## greywulf

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> Its like playing f-ing pictionary.




LOL!!!! I know what you mean. I hate miniatures and dungeon floorplans with a passion. Imagination is cheaper, more flexible and better painted than miniatures can ever be. 

Each to their own though, I guess. 

There are a few updates at the Macropedia. First, and most noticeable is the new theme/layout/stylesheet. Hope you like it! It'll be up until WoTC chews my ass. Consider it a homage to a certain set of books. It's a layout I've been wanting to create for a while 

My good friend Alex Schroeder is working on a German translation of the Core Rules, which is great - and he'll be happy for any other German speakers to help him out. 

Meantime, please feel free to drop your own contributions in too - the more, the merrier! Just type a page title into the New/Edit Page box at the top right. Use CamelCaps (ie, bunch the capitalized words together) for the title and I'll be Very Happy with you. See How To Contribute for more details.

If anyone has additional downloads I've missed, add them to the Microlite20Downloads  page too - I'm sure you'll be able to work out how to add URLs.

That's it for now. I'm working on the next part to my Chicken Royale modern spy spoof/adventure, scheduled for airing next Wendesday.

UPDATE: http://home.greywulf.net/m20 now goes straight to the Macropedia. Ah, the joys of .htaccess.


----------



## bytor4232

I like the wiki site.  My only suggestion, and its a nitpickey one, is to make the front page a little more consolidated with the core stuff.  I came to the website looking for a the core stuff and suppliments, and it wasn't clear I landed in the right spot.  In other words if this is going to be the main site for Microlite20, then the home page at least should promote the system.  I'd hate for a potential user of Microlite20 to be turned away because they didn't read the first couple of paragraphs.

I know I'm nit-picking, sorry.  Just a thought.  Its kinda clear that if your looking for Microlite20 you've landed at the right page if you read a few paragraphs, but some people may not look past the title.


----------



## greywulf

Good point, well said, Bytor. I've been trying to work out how to re-word the front page so that it emphasises what Microlite20 is, without just repeating what's already in the sidebar. 

Wording suggestions appreciated 

EDIT: I've changed the wording a little. Let me know what you think. Thanks!


----------



## Mark CMG

Thank you for the mention and the "thank you." 


This project has really come a long way, hasn't it?  What do you say to the idea of cleaning all of it up and adding some slick tables and charts and whatnot, then putting out a free PDF compilation for GM's Day (March Fo(u)rth) in 2007?  (Perhaps with handy folding instructions?  )


----------



## greywulf

Yes please, Mark!!!


----------



## Mark CMG

Cool.  Okay.  Well, everyone keep moving along with that goal in mind.

We'll likely need all of the text work done by the end of January, as well-edited as possible, so that layout and such can begin.  Maybe start batting around some thematic ideas for artwork and borders and such.

In the end we'll do whatever we can for as little money as possible (since it'll be free) but I don't think the Cooperative Dungeons turned out so badly and those were built in the same fashion.  Maybe download the newer Cooperative Dungeons from my site (if you don't have them) to get some ideas about the kind of work I generally do.

I've got access to a fair amount of artwork I can utilize that should be just fine for our purposes.  But as I said, having some idea of what you'd like to see thematically, the feel of the whole project, will help guide the final choices.

We'll revisit this more seriously just after the New Year and get a better idea exactly where we are and what we'll need to do from there.  Looking forward to it!


----------



## Land Outcast

Wow... this has gone a long way since it's humble begginings...

Kudos to greywulf and all involved here, I've been following your progress closely


----------



## Catavarie

If your looking for ideas on how to improve Microlite20 webpage check out this article on web design.  it is a great place to look for ideas on things to incorporate into your webpage to make it both more useable and friendlier to look at.


----------



## greywulf

Thanks, folks. Considering Microlite20 is just 900-ish words long in total, it's certainly generated a lot of traffic!

The whole idea behind the Microlite20 site is that it's a wiki, not some closed-designed system. It's open for anyone to change, mould, contribute and redefine in any way they want, provided it's all relating to improving and extending Microlite20. 

In other words, instead of suggesting how to improve the site, roll up your sleeves and do it! It's a wiki philosophy thing 

There's just two rules - the HomePage is locked, so's the StyleSheet. Oh, and no spammers. Ok, that's three rules, but still.........

So saying, if you want to suggest changes to the stylesheet, the Home Page (or anything else for that matter), please feel free to leave comments. Comments are good!

Thanks again everyone.

Mark, I don't think Microlite20 itself will make for a great download for CMG - it's just too short  and tiny a system. Now, if we can come up with an entire setting, bestiary, rules and adventure(s) in (say) 16 pages of goodness..............

And lo, it shall be done


----------



## Mark CMG

greywulf said:
			
		

> Mark, I don't think Microlite20 itself will make for a great download for CMG - it's just too short  and tiny a system.





Therein lies the challenge. 




			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> Now, if we can come up with an entire setting, bestiary, rules and adventure(s) in (say) 16 pages of goodness..............
> 
> And lo, it shall be done





Yup.  Something like that in a downloadable bundle with instructions on how to fold each component/book so you have a mini-bundle that fits in your shirt pocket, along with the appropriate dice, of course.  Maybe so that the little bundle of books fits tucked into a standard size pocket notepad that you can then put a band around to hold it all together.  Maybe we'll add in some mini artwork and bits to liven it up a little differently than the standard downloads.  We'll figure some neat new way to design it and lay it out for GM's Day so that it has a extra coolness factor to it.


----------



## greywulf

Sounds good to me 

I can't wait.


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> Good point, well said, Bytor. I've been trying to work out how to re-word the front page so that it emphasises what Microlite20 is, without just repeating what's already in the sidebar.
> 
> Wording suggestions appreciated
> 
> EDIT: I've changed the wording a little. Let me know what you think. Thanks!




If it were me, and its simply a nit-pick and I appologize, but I would change the title to read:

Microlite20 and the Rules Macropedia

Only because if this is going to be the homepage for the core rules, it should be clear in the title that this is where you've landed.


----------



## greywulf

Folks, Alex is working on re-wording the Core Rules themselves to make them a little more user friendly. If you want to help, hop over to the Core Rules Revised page and either leave a comment, or edit them directly.

If it comes out better than the current wording, I'll drop them into the Core Rules themselves. Try to keep them as short as possible though. Microlite20 ain't verbose.

Remember, it's changing the wording to improve the clarity we want, not changing the rules themselves. Just so you know


----------



## greywulf

.....also, we're adding in examples to show how the rules are used. If you have any good examples, or want something clarifying, please let me know and I'll add them in.

Thanks!


----------



## snikle

An issue came up with my players, so I thought I would throw it up here and see what sticks.

I recently posted some stones with runes on them (can see them here: http://www.fouruglymonsters.com/community/showthread.php?t=729&page=3). Anyway, players asked if they could decipher them, I decided this was a Knowledge check, so then one asked, couldn't it be communication? Well, I think it is Knowledge, BUT that raises the question, what do you guys use the Communication skill for? My first guess is Bard type skills and entertaining sort of things. Thought about bluff, but wouldn't that fall more under Subterfuge.

What do you guys think?


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## Frostmarrow

snikle said:
			
		

> An issue came up with my players, so I thought I would throw it up here and see what sticks.
> 
> I recently posted some stones with runes on them (can see them here: http://www.fouruglymonsters.com/community/showthread.php?t=729&page=3). Anyway, players asked if they could decipher them, I decided this was a Knowledge check, so then one asked, couldn't it be communication? Well, I think it is Knowledge, BUT that raises the question, what do you guys use the Communication skill for? My first guess is Bard type skills and entertaining sort of things. Thought about bluff, but wouldn't that fall more under Subterfuge.
> 
> What do you guys think?




Both apply.


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## kensanata

*German Translation PDF (Deutsche Übersetzung)*

I've worked on the German translation, and decided that I needed a PDF to print out and hand out to potential players. And that PDF really needed some sort of weapons and armour table. So I used Sadrik's suggestions and added two very small tables. Using two columns and small fonts, I was able to put it all on one page excl. License. This is based on the wiki page but was post-processed in Open-Office.


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## greywulf

snikle said:
			
		

> I recently posted some stones with runes on them (can see them here: http://www.fouruglymonsters.com/community/showthread.php?t=729&page=3). Anyway, players asked if they could decipher them, I decided this was a Knowledge check, so then one asked, couldn't it be communication? Well, I think it is Knowledge, BUT that raises the question, what do you guys use the Communication skill for? My first guess is Bard type skills and entertaining sort of things. Thought about bluff, but wouldn't that fall more under Subterfuge.




As per the Skills Use examples, Communication would be used for situations where you'd use the following d20 skills:

Appraise, Bluff (though Sub would work too), Diplomacy, Forgery (ditto for sub), Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate (sometimes), Perform, Profession (usually), Ride and Sense Motive

As Microltie20 is more of a freeform system, the skills are purposely not hard-and-fast, so there's considerable overlap in what applies when. That's why I recommend just winging it in game based upon the player's declared actions.

As regards the runes, you're both right. For the nearest d20 skill - Decipher Script - I suggested know+MIND or com+MIND. I'd allow them to use whichever skill is highest. Take the rune stones to a Mage and they'll use their Knowledge. Take them to a Cleric and they'll try to gain an understanding of the text using Communication. That's assuming both are of equal level, or course


----------



## snikle

Thanks! Had not seen the skill use examples, great stuff! Had I been gaming normally (rather than a PbP), I would have judged it a know+MIND probably. PbP is kinda of nice in that respect.


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## Slaine

Hi!  This is my first post on the forums and after finding this throughly entertaining thread and great rules I feel compelled to thank everyone (especially Greywulf of course!) for bringing me back to DnD.  And proper DnD (not the 3.5 bad haircut version) too!    

  I'm mainly a fanatsy and historical wargamer and painter but I have a great affection for roleplaying games as they came first for me.  Basic DnD in particular as the Red box was the first rpg I purchased.  

  All of my roleplaying experiences up until that point were completely paperless and sans dice.  All actions in the game were roleplayed and I must admit I miss that type of game as it left more to the imagination and there was less of a materialistic/consumerist/betterment element to the game.  As I got older and I was playing rpgs with a wider group of people (all my roleplaying had been with one or two close friends until this point), the DnD system became the great equaliser.  Everyone 'got' the DnD concept and as with any set of rules (as per their function), DnD was a functional framework for belting the  out of kobolds.

  Well, the years have rolled on, the games played and abandoned and after a very lengthy hiatus, I'm back to beating the crap out of Kobolds - and it's all thanks to you guys   

  I printed out the rules and the kobold temple scenario and ran a game for a friend on the weekend.  We had an absolute blast!  It's really refreshing to go from playing a visceral, rules heavy, Napoleonic miniatures wargame to a rules-lite abstract contest of the imagination.

  My friend (who incidentally has never played a rpg before but who is familiar with the concepts of fantasy) decided he wanted to be a woodsman who has a supernatural affinity with animals and a pet wolf.  

  I decided to use the stats for a wolf from the list of animals in the print out and made him take a mind + communication test against a variable DC every time he gave the wolf a command.  

  I quickly read over the adventure notes and explained the background to the player.  As background, I explained that his character was passing through a nearby settlement on the southern borders of the realm's frontier when he had received a summons from the sheriff of the local lands.

  The sheriff turned out to be a farmer who had been appointed administrator of the land in the absence of the local lord who had been seconded (along with his guardsmen) to the war in the west.  The lord had left his lands seven years prior to the adventure and by that time, the Kobolds had become such an irritant that there had been numerous attempts at mustering a competent local militia with the help of passing swords for hire at the helm.  All of these attempts had failed to dislodge the Kobolds from their ancestral lands and their guerrilla fighting had forced many to abandon the area in search of more prosperous (and guarded) environs.  By the time the player's character turns up on the scene, the village has had enough.  They decide to employ the character on the basis that he is an experienced woodsman whereas in the past, others had failed to navigate the dense woods and had succumbed to it's inherent traps.  The towns people are in such desperation that they offer the character a princely sum of 15gp per Kobold head (as per the adventure notes)!

  I'll summarise how the rest went when I get a chance some time tomorrow....


----------



## greywulf

WooYah!

That's great, and thanks for the compliments  and kind words  

I'm itching to find out how the woodsman fared going through the Temple. My party survived it pretty well (except for that Darned Unescapable Spiked Pit Trap), and never wanted to see another kobold for as long as they lived. Which is good.

We should finish off our Modern scenario this week, then it's back into fantasyland for them. I'm going to run them through a scenario straight from Dungeon without conversion, preparation or apology, just to see what happens.

Please, please, post up notes about the rest of the adventure!

EDIT: I've posted up a page of instructions showing how to fold the pocketbooks here: http://wiki.greywulf.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/Macropedia/HowToFold. Just so you know


----------



## greywulf

I've added a small article about the Microlite Campaign to the Macropedia. Basically, how to build a campaign world with minimum effort using stock adventures. Hope it's food for thought, and suitably old school  All obvious stuff, really, but nice and zen.

In other news: gaming tonight, hoping to finish off Chicken Royale. 

I'm preparing for the Big New Campaign, which is likely to be Ptolus, using stock D&D. I'm going to drop the World Serpent Inn in there too, and a portal into the World's Largest Dungeon as well. That should keep the game going for /years/........... 

I'm going to keep on using Microlite20 for one-shots too, so expect more House Rules and articles as time passes. Thanks for all your input guys!


----------



## bytor4232

I agree.  Playing D&D with my 6 year old. Running one shot games.  Introducing new players to the game and RPGs in general.  Taking a break from the campaign thats been dragging on and on for the last year.  Running that really cool Dungeon module from the latest issue.  Being board on vacation and just wanting to play a quick game.  Making a quick player for the guy passing by the table and wants to try D&D out.  Generating NPCs on the fly during your regular D&D game.  Thats what I'm using m20 for.  

It has its uses.  I showed the system to my players in my various games, and they all wanted to stick with D&D, but are willing to run one-shots.  I think as much as people complain about the rules, they still love to cloak themselves in 100 lbs of books.  And I can't say that I blame them.


----------



## WSmith

I need to get some time to check out the Macropedia. There are a few comments I want to make about the text, for the sake of clarification. 

I do have one question though. Since my memory of the way d20 stat blocks work, if we use this stat block from the rules...



		Code:
	

Bugbear HD 3d8+3 (16 hp)
AC 17
Morningstar +5 (1d8+2)


When the bugbear attacks, is the attack bonus subsumed in the attack modifer? For example, When this bugbear attcks, is it correct to just roll 1d20 and add +5? I am guessing the +3 for having 3 HD is part of that, correct? Cause +8 would be pretty mighty, even for a bugbear.


----------



## greywulf

Yep, he's at +5 total to hit, nothing more to add except maybe situation modifiers.

In m20 terms, he's got +3 from his HD, +2 from somewhere else, probably STR.

Hope that clarifies


----------



## WSmith

greywulf said:
			
		

> Yep, he's at +5 total to hit, nothing more to add except maybe situation modifiers.
> 
> In m20 terms, he's got +3 from his HD, +2 from somewhere else, probably STR.
> 
> Hope that clarifies




Thanks. That helps a bunch.


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## snikle

Greywulf! I love what you did with the 4x5 magic system, that rocks! I am pretty sure I will be using it in my PbP, and maybe in some one-shots I am thinking of running. Thanks for the hard work!


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## greywulf

Thanks, snikle. I'm expecting playtest feedback early next week, so I hope it works!

More posting later, including some Magic Items for Microlite20 and a write-up of the climactic end to Chicken Royale. I really ought to write it up as a M20 Modern adventure too.


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## greywulf

Just posted: New Magic Items for Microlite20 .

Enjoy.


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## snikle

I took your 4x5 system and remodeled it a wee bit to fit in line with some of my thoughts on magic. I am calling it 5x5:  

Magi begin play at 1st level knowing three Words of Power - either Two Actions and One Realm, or Two Realms and One Action. They learn one new Word of Power every two levels (3,5,7, etc).

*The Five Actions*

 Enhance (augeo): Strengthen, Heal, Enlarge, Repair, Sharpen, etc.
 Diminish (infirmo): Weaken, Damage, Injure, Reduce, Break, Dull, Deteriorate, etc.
 Communicate with (defero): Sense, Read, Seek, Inform, Determine, Understand, etc.
 Control (tempero): Shape, Hold, Command, Direct, Dictate, etc. 
 Create (genero): Summon, Create, 
Create is difficult to learn, and you may not learn Create spells until you have learned all of the other Actions.

*The Five Realms*

 Body (corpus): Living body of sentient beings, animals, plants.
 Mind (mentis): That which normally inhabits and animates a body
 Energy (navitas): Fire, water, air, magic, [electricity, etc.] - and, if the GM is willing, time.
 Matter (materia): Solid material with no mind - stone, metal, wood, leather, paper, [plastic, etc.]
 Spirit (animus): The essence or soul. Spirit is difficult to learn, and you may not learn Spirit spells until you have learned at least three other Realms and three Actions

*Difficulty Checks*
Spells are cast by combining a Word with an Action and successfully making a Magical Attack (Level+MIND) check. _Note_: characters must be able to speak the enchantment to be able to cast.

The DC for the check is determined by the GM at the time of casting. There is no _'set in stone'_ list of modifiers and allot is left up to the GM to determine. The list below is examples of what can affect the difficulty of the casting:

 Exact circumstances of when the spell was cast
 Willingness of the target
 Distance to the target
 Area of effect
 Intended effect of spell
 How rushed the caster is
 Caster's familiarity with the spell (have they cast it often before)

*The Cost of Spells*
Each spell has a cost that is associated with it. The previous list of things that can affect the DC, also affect the cost in HP of. A simple easy spell, such at lighting a torch, or mending a cloak might only cost 1HP, where as casting a massive fireball that engulfs 3 orcs might cost 6HP. Prior to casting a spell, the GM will announce the DC and the cost of the spell. Players may opt to spend addition HP to increase their chance for success, 1HP per +1 modifier to the casting. If a magi reaches 0HP due to casting, he passes out, regaining 1HP per hour of rest. The HP lost due to spell casting cannot be healed and must be regenerated over time, HP lost due to spell casting recovers at a rate of about 1 per hour.

*Duration of Spells*
Spells that affect inanimate objects are generally permanent; an enlarged pebble will stay large, a broken belt will stay mended. Magically created fires, etc, will die down naturally. Living creatures will eventually revert back to their normal form, though any healed damage stays healed. Some spells can have continuing costs that must be spent to keep the spell 'active'.

*Spell Effects*
Every 5 (or part) points of success is equal to 1d8 effect, thus if the DC was 10 and the player rolled 11, it produces 1d8 worth of effect, if they rolled a 16, then 2d8 worth of effect was caused. This can take the form of damage, healing,  transformation, or length of effect; to turn one thing into another the total effect rolled must equal the difference between the two hit point totals. That’s why it’s so easy to turn commoners into toads, but Magi turn into dragons.


----------



## snikle

Ok, this came up with our game.....divine magic. For simplicity's sack, I would say use the same system....but players have mentioned that it doesn't really seem to fit for them, why does it take the caster's HP when the magic should come from the god, not the PC, etc...

An idea we came up with:
Have a Divine Pool in place of a cleric's HP, this is equal to their maximum HP. They get full access to all actions + realms at first level, however, the cleric is limited to effects that would be in line with their deity. This pool does not regenerate with rest like normal HP do for the magi, instead the cleric will have to pray/perform rituals/make sacrifices/etc to get these back. Could make up a quick table for how much is regained:
daily prayer:  d4
ornate ritual: d8
sacrifice (in whatever form would be appropriate): d12


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## kensanata

I'd say channeling the energy doesn't come for free, it tasks your body and soul just as any other kind of magic. You need your daily prayers & rituals to gain divine grace in the first place. If you want to heal somebody, for example, I'd expect you to feel weak with cold sweat running down your back. But at least you saved the poor sod and mended his broken collar bone... Something like that.


----------



## Bert the Ogre

*Map-a-week and Microlite*

After surfing around, looking for a quick and EASY version of D20, I am glad to have found Microlite20.

I wrote up a campaign world and mini-adventure for the M20 system, and sent it in to Greywulf for consideration, but a concern I have is the use of maps and dungeons from the "Map of the Week" section of the WoTC web-site. Since (so far) this is a "freebie" project, is there any concern about using the maps and other posted artwork that is clearly for public consumption?

So far, the "dungeons" posted at Greywulf's site seem to be made from "random dungeon generators," but this project seems tailor made for mini-modules with more of a plot line than a random generator could provide.

The reason I ask is that while I can write up a fairly cohesive storyline and populate a dungeon in a logical manner, my artistic skills are pretty lame. Drawing/painting a map, drawing character sketches, NPC sketches, and other artwork is not something I do well. Populating the free dungeon maps, using the area maps for world building, and character sketches for NPCs and other interior artwork is easier for me than using the old graph paper and a marker.

So, any "legal eagles" out there with any suggestions?


----------



## kensanata

Well, if you write your own adventure, but use other artwork, then the resulting work is going to be a derivative, and thus neither you nor anybody else has a right to copy and distribute it beyond very basic "fair use" stuff (eg. copy it for your friends at the table, copy it for your family). As far as M20 and the d20 SRD is concerned, it is under the OGL. But the Map-A-Week stuff has no special license attached to it. Therefore we must assume that the link to the "Terms of Use" at the bottom apply to the map. And there we see: "You may not distribute such copies to others, whether or not in electronic form, whether or not for a charge or other consideration, without prior written consent of the owner of the materials."

So you would either have to get permission, or restrict yourself to a link to the map you're describing. Your text without the map is obviously yours to copy and distribute and to license.

Long live permissive licenses.


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## greywulf

What Kensanata said, twice.

I figured that channelling magic of any kind must take it's physical toll on a frail mortal form, whether the source of the magic is the Gods, the mystical weave, animal spirits, or wherever. 

As to how those Hit Points are lost, that's entirely open to the campaign, DM and gamer. I've one gamer who's character runs a knife across his body as he casts, literally blood-letting (inspired by the maho from Rokugan in Oriental Adventures). Another one feels physically fatigued as the magic courses through his body. I've had an idea for a NPC shaman who lets the spirits take over his body, casting spells in retrun for a little of his soulstuff. Let your imagination go wild.

As regards the pdfs you sent me Bert, I haven't have chance to convert them today (been building rockets with my sons  ), but I'll have a go tomorrow. If you can find the URLs for the maps you used, I'll put a link to them in the PDF rather than the images themselves. That should be ok with the copyright pixies.

And I'll take a look at snicke's 5x5 adaptation of the magic system tomorrow too when I'm more awake. Looks good on first readthru though


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## Bert the Ogre

I sent the links to you via email. As I said in the email, I'll do things "by the book," but I would have liked to have seen that mini-module in a Pocket-book...

Oh well...


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## snikle

I think part of the reason we felt the casting takes HP was hard to swallow for a cleric is probably based on preconceived ideas of cleric. In D&D they are up front fighting with the fighter, taking HP from them to cast spells would make it less likely they were up there....and hence, not the same cleric we have come to expect....even if that idea is wrong.
When my friend came up with the idea of regenerating their DP through prayer and ceremony, I thought it was a perfect solution, force those players to actually do those rituals (in the past I have rarely seen them do prayers and such to their deity, it is just a sort of 'understood' that they did them out of game). My one player with a cleric now thinks this is cool, will see how cool he thinks it is when he starts running low and doesn't have the time to do some prayers or ceremonies properly to get his DP back.


----------



## WSmith

Someone on the RPG.net thread was asking about ranges listed on the equipment list and stated they are not explained. I am assuming these are the d20 standard "range incriment" without modifiers list (but assumed) and not the maximum? 

EDIT: Nevermind. It is explained in the full sized equipment list PDF. 

Also, something is wierd with the macropedia. It says on one page, (I think recent edits) that "Using CHA" was moved to skills, but when clicking on skills, it is not there. Also, there is no direct link anywhere that I can find to the core rules revised excpet on the "additions" page.


----------



## greywulf

Snikle, sounds good to me  I like the idea of making the Cleric actually act like a Cleric. I’m glad you found as solution that works for you, and gets the player happy with the whole Cleric thing.

One of these days, I ought to work out how to integrate Psionics in to M20, if only for the Modern variant. Not right now though, I’m too wrapped up in campaign building. Later. One day. Maybe.

As for Ranges, if it matters I'd go with the standard range increments. Personally though, I prefer to just say "it's kinda hard to hit the Kobold from this distance. Take a -2". That's more in the spirit of M20.

The revised core rules will replace the wording of the Core Rules themselves when I find time to check them through , and Using CHA is in the Index, and on the Macropedia page. Hope that helps.


----------



## kensanata

We had our first session today and the players loved M20. Easy to get started, containing all the fun they wanted from a d20 system without all the crud about skills and feats and all that. Here are some changes we did on the fly:

1. We didn't like the standard d20 spell list system, so we kept the M20 rules about HP cost and spell levels, but the two magic users just picked the system they liked. One of them presented me with a list of about 20 runes that he wanted to use for spell casting and picked the "kinetic" rune to start with. Drawing the rune will invoke an appropriate spell (spell level and exact effect to be discussed when used). The other decided to be able to see and speak to all sorts of shinto spirits (they are everywhere) and to be a special friend of plant spirits so that they would occasionally do his bidding if cajoled appropriately. I asked both of them to write down the three most common spells they were planning to use so that we wouldn't have to discuss those when necessary.

2. I told them that they should pick a feat they would like their character to have, maybe picked from the d20 list, or anything else they felt like doing. One picked superb jumping, the other picked the ability to heal and inspired great courage (the tree friend), and the last one picked the ability to project his thoughts via telepathy (write-only, so to speak).

3. I planned to use the HARP critical tables for natural 20 rolls by players. They got used exactly once as the treefriend ventured out into the forest on his own looking for clues and was surprised by a turtle demon. He fled, wielded his longbow, turned around, and rolled a 20. I rolled a 95 on the piercing crit table and added +15 for his +3 DEX bonus, resulting in a lung shot, 29pts of damage, death in 12 rounds, bleeding, and so on. An awesome effect.

M20 - all the fun and none of the hassle.


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## greywulf

EXCELLENT!

I'm glad it worked as well as we hoped. The idea of using HARP's crit tables with M20 scars me.....in a tempting kind of way


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## kensanata

Well, I'm not yet ready to use them against players – for the moment I use them against monsters because I know that players love to see phantastic results when rolling a natural 20.  I really need to figure out how to translate the HARP hitpoints to M20 hitpoints.


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## Cymew

I have not been able to print and fold the pocketmods. The margins cut off text whatever I do. Anyone care to post some instructions how to set the margins, print and fold it?


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## kensanata

*Martial Arts?*

One of my players wants to play a monk. What's the simplest solution?


----------



## greywulf

I've added Bert's truly excellent The Scarlet Sea  campaign mini-setting and adventure to the Microlite20 site. It's a pocketmod download pdf. It uses a few maps from WoTC's map a week site, so I've provided links to them too.

I've also added his Skills and Feats pocketbook into the Downloads page too. It's a useful guide if you want to put d20 skills and feats back into the game.

Bert, hope this is ok for you. 

Cymew, check out the HowToFold page on the site. That should help with your pocketbook woes. Remember to set the printer settings to Scale the Margins. Each version of acrobat changes the print settings box wording slightly, but it should be there someplace. That should work.



			
				kensanata said:
			
		

> One of my players wants to play a monk. What's the simplest solution?




Just let him. 

Monks use no armour. They have a +3 bonus to Physical and can fight unarmed (kicks, punches, etc) doing d6 damage. They gain an AC bonus equal to half their level (rounded up) provided they are wearing no more than loose fitting clothes. Their unarmed damage increases by one dice type (d6->d8, d8->d10, etc) every four levels. Their attacks count as magical after 3rd level.

Ninjas are the same as Monks, but gain +3 to Sub instead of the +3 to Phys.

Would that work?


----------



## RFisher

kensanata said:
			
		

> One of my players wants to play a monk. What's the simplest solution?




Choose the class you think fits best. Allow their fists & feet to do weapon damage. When they aren't using weapons or wearing armor, give them a "martial arts" armor bonus.

Edit: Maybe give them a small penalty when using non-monk weapons.


----------



## kensanata

Hm, good idea. They're not fighters because they don't get the +1 attack/damage bonus; instead they get an AC bonus... I like it. I bet the player will ask about multiple attacks, however. I'll probably add the following: Monks can use DEX bonus + Level as Melee attack bonus if unarmed. Monks make multiple attacks per round by taking -2 on the first attack, -4 on the second attack, and so on, as long as their melee attack bonus is positive. Example: Mu Ehr is a 5th level monk with DEX 18/+4. He uses DEX based Gong Fu to fight and thus has a melee bonus +9 for a single attack. When using a Flurry of Blows, he has four attacks at +7/+5/+3/+1.


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## greywulf

I like. That could be an option for martial-arts heavy games. I've put the Monk class in the Macropedia, so I'll add in your suggested enhancement too.


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## kensanata

Hah, I have the mystic wiki-altering powers as well! 

I felt multiple attacks were necessary, since monks (martial artists) are not spell casting and not sneaking, therefore they should be comparable to fighters. A fighter will have a better AC than an naked monk due to armor, however. And the fighter can make two attacks using -2/-2 at any time, or later in the game a fighter can make two attacks using 0/-5. So I needed something at least comparable for monks. Hence "Flurry of Blows".


----------



## greywulf

kensanata said:
			
		

> Hah, I have the mystic wiki-altering powers as well!




Mystic, eh? I knew there was something unnatural about wikis 

Looks good. Thanks, Alex. I look forward to hearing how it plays.


----------



## WSmith

greywulf said:
			
		

> As for Ranges, if it matters I'd go with the standard range increments. Personally though, I prefer to just say "it's kinda hard to hit the Kobold from this distance. Take a -2". That's more in the spirit of M20.




This is exactly what I had in mind, considering most ranges in a dungeon are about the same, except for large caverns, long hallways, and vast open temple rooms.


----------



## Bert the Ogre

greywulf said:
			
		

> I've added Bert's truly excellent The Scarlet Sea  campaign mini-setting and adventure to the Microlite20 site. It's a pocketmod download pdf. It uses a few maps from WoTC's map a week site, so I've provided links to them too.
> 
> I've also added his Skills and Feats pocketbook into the Downloads page too. It's a useful guide if you want to put d20 skills and feats back into the game.
> 
> Bert, hope this is ok for you.
> 
> [greywulf=QUOTE]
> 
> That's great for me! I redrew both maps, and renamed many of the non-generic places (Cities, the Arch), so this is now more "my work" than WoTCs. I'll email you both area maps (color and BW) and the redrawn Haunted Tower maps, as well as the "module" with all the new names.
> 
> I'm busy working on the next mini-module, there will also be two maps, one entirely mine, one a redrawing of a WoTC caves map (pretty generic in it's own right). I should have it in the email pouch by this weekend as well.
> 
> I'm better at creating modules and adventures than writing up rules, and this rule-set works GREAT with my writing style. Is there any plan for more monsters from the SRD? I needed a Green Slime today, and ended up substituting with a Large Viper. The Gelatinous Cube wasn't quite what I wanted, but it was the only fungus available...


----------



## greywulf

Bert the Ogre said:
			
		

> I'm better at creating modules and adventures than writing up rules, and this rule-set works GREAT with my writing style. Is there any plan for more monsters from the SRD? I needed a Green Slime today, and ended up substituting with a Large Viper. The Gelatinous Cube wasn't quite what I wanted, but it was the only fungus available...




Thanks Bert. I've got your revised edition, and I'll have it converted and posted up later today.

Green Slime is a strange one to find anyway - it's in the DMG under Dungeon Ecology instead of being in the MM as a critter. It made it into the SRD too. Here's the text:



> Green Slime (CR 4): This dungeon peril is a dangerous variety of normal slime. Green slime devours flesh and organic materials on contact and is even capable of dissolving metal. Bright green, wet, and sticky, it clings to walls, floors, and ceilings in patches, reproducing as it consumes organic matter. It drops from walls and ceilings when it detects movement (and possible food) below.
> 
> A single 5-foot square of green slime deals 1d6 points of Constitution damage per round while it devours flesh. On the first round of contact, the slime can be scraped off a creature (most likely destroying the scraping device), but after that it must be frozen, burned, or cut away (dealing damage to the victim as well). Anything that deals cold or fire damage, sunlight, or a remove disease spell destroys a patch of green slime. Against wood or metal, green slime deals 2d6 points of damage per round, ignoring metal’s hardness but not that of wood. It does not harm stone.




There's a version of the Green Slime as a critter  here on these board too (which I prefer). That would convert in M20 terms to:

Green Slime, HD2d10+2 (11hp), AC3, +3 1d6 damage (flesh) or 2d6 damage (wood/metal). No skills.

Hope that helps.

Monsters. I'd love to see more monsters! I'd love to come up with a load of critters that are unique to Microlite20, so we can have a complete micro-ecology going on. Yeh. That would rock.


----------



## kensanata

*Monsters and NPCs for an Asian setting*

Well, I've used the following adaptation of the Kappa (a turtle demon) from the Kitsunemori setting:


   HP 4d6+15, AC 17, Atk claw +4 (2d4+2 and save Phys+DEX vs. the
   attack roll or be stunned for 1d4 rounds; alternatively, no damage
   and save Phys+STR vs. DC 15 or be slowed for seven rounds). CR 3½.​
Kijo (something between an ogre and a hill giant):


   HD 4d8+12, AC 16, Atk +9 melee (1d8+9 slam). The kijo don't like to
   fight. Their roar will stun anybody standing nearby for a round.
   Save Level+WILL vs. 15 to resist. CR 3½.​
Tengu (bird demon fighting with a Katana):


   HP 6d8+18, special initiative +10, AC 20, Atk katana +11 (1d10+3),
   or bite +4 (2d6+1). CR 6.​
I also use a new race for NPCs, Kitsune (fox demons). I simplified the complex rules as follows:


Kitsune get WILL+2 like elves. Use CHA if you have it in your house rules.

They are at -2 against magic cast by humans but at +4 when seducing
humans.

Kitsune are magical creatures and thus start with one use of fox magic
and gain a new fox magic ability every five levels (5, 10, 15),
irrespective of their class. Casting these costs HP like ordinary
spells. The maximum level can be increased by increasing your
prestige: Every five prestige points gains you one extra level (15,
20, 25).

Example: Umisachihiko is level 9 with prestige 23. Half his
level and round up is 5 + two extra spell levels due to prestige gives
him access to a max spell level of 7, costing him 2 x 7 + 1 = 15hp.
If he's not a mage he will know only two spells, however.
If he's a mage, he'll know a lot more.

In return, they are absolutely honor bound. If they give their
word, they are bound for a year and a day to live up to it or suffer
3d6 damage every day.​
I'm not sure I got the balance right; I'll have to see how much of an effect the -2 to human magic and the honor bound property have. 

Based on this, here are two kitsune NPCs:


   Umisachihiko has eight tails (two initial tails, prestige: +4, myobu
   level 9: +2) and has created a shrine realm. He is a known protector
   of the eastern mountains. He favors mountain lakes above all.

   He's a weaver of dreams, not a master of weapons. He'll lead your foes
   astray and grant you visions to guide you down the right path. When
   Umisachihiko is around, the fountains speak and the waterfall dragons
   dance, singing his praise.

   Mage 9, hp 38, STR 10, DEX 15/+2, MIND 20/+5, Phys +9, Sub +9,
   Know +12, Comm +9, AC 13, Atk +9 melee (1d4 war fan) or +11 ranged
   (1d4 sling) or +14 ranged (1d6+3 yumi+3) or +14 magic. Prestige:
   26. Treasure: Greater Dispel Magic Scroll, Clear Ioun Stone (user
   requires either food nor water), black pearl (300gp), ring of
   protection +1, 3pp, 45gp.

   Spells (enchantment, illusion, and fox magic): Sleep, Charm,
   Invisibility, Illusions (up to illusions that deal 50% real damage
   at level 5 and the creation of a permanent shrine realm at level
   7).​
As you can see, I didn't even bother listing all the spells, just listing the domains and giving a few examples if the maximum effect is actually relevant. Spell effects lasting a few rounds are level 1, spells lasting a few hours are level 3.


   Yamasachihiko is known by some to have tricked many an unwary
   traveller into the darkest corners of the great forest. He loves to
   use his magic yumi +3 when fighting and will use its power to keep
   the party at a distance if necessary.

   Fighter 7, hp 40, STR 16/+3, DEX 14/+2, MIND 11/+2, Phys +10,
   Sub +7, Know +7, Comm +7, AC 20 (glamered chainmail +2), Atk +11
   melee (1d10+6 Naginata) or +13 ranged (1d6+8 magic yumi) or +8
   magic. Prestige: 18/+4, four tails. Treasure: Jade figure (120gp),
   gold bracelet (60gp), 3pp, 50gp.

   Spells: Basic Disguise (Sub +10, level 1, look like somebody else)
   for 1d4+1 x 10 minutes, Advanced Disguis (Sub +15, level 3, look
   like a specific person) for 1d4+1 hours.

   If not favorably impressed, the kitsune makes haste to send the
   kijos after the party, and in a fight, he will use it's magic bow
   to smite his enemies.​
This one is a fighter and thus he knows only two fox magic spells.


----------



## greywulf

Great stuff, Alex!!

Any chance you could add these to the Macropedia? I've added a new Monsters category.

Cheers.


----------



## RFisher

greywulf said:
			
		

> I like. That could be an option for martial-arts heavy games. I've put the Monk class in the Macropedia, so I'll add in your suggested enhancement too.




Yeah. Originally I went with "pick a class" because I couldn't decide. But now I'm thinking it could be cool to just have a "unarmed combat" template that could be applied to any class for an wuxia-flavor campaign.


----------



## kensanata

Gah. Looking at my NPCs and struggling with myself for balance, and trying to remind myself of the M20 spirit, I decided to abolish the kitsune speciality stuff and just rule them to be like elven mages. WILL+2, Know+3, and magic.


----------



## greywulf

kensanata said:
			
		

> Gah. Looking at my NPCs and struggling with myself for balance, and trying to remind myself of the M20 spirit, I decided to abolish the kitsune speciality stuff and just rule them to be like elven mages. WILL+2, Know+3, and magic.




:grin:

Occam's Razor is your friend in M20. Reduce down to the simplest terms possible, always.


----------



## Cymew

Greywulf,

You are starting to scare me! You already had a page up with folding instructions!? Thanks! I'll see if I can understand that "Scale Margins" setting. I'll do another try.


----------



## kensanata

To be honest, Cymew, I tried printing with Preview.app on my Mac, and for some PDF files it will tell me that the size of the page exceeds my printer margins and lets me choose between resize or crop -- but the Core Rules pocketmod PDF Greywulf has up on his site doesn't trigger this code, and therefore I don't get to resize, and therefore I can't print it correctly. Obviously my print driver and my real printer have different ideas about A4 paper... Oh well. Who needs pocketmod rules anyway. I just stick the real thing to the inside of my DM screen.


----------



## Bert the Ogre

The second adventure is finished, but I'm looking at tweaking the info so that the maps and text all fit on an eight page Pocketbook. Right now, I have 7 pages of text, plus 2 maps, putting me one page over my goal... I've also started on the third adventure, and my first (mostly) wilderness adventure. Once again, I'm cribbing and redrawing maps from WoTC since my cartography skills SUCK! Maybe one day I'll have the money to buy a tablet PC, and be able to draw directly on the screen.


----------



## greywulf

Great, Bert. Mail me them when you're done. I still need to convert your updated previous adventure. My 'puter is in the middle of a compilation, so I can't reboot to do it just yet. I'll have it done and updated tomorrow for you, ok?

And I'll take a look at the Core Rules pocketmod. Maybe I'll create a letter-sized one too, for those countries who don't use God's own paper sizes


----------



## kensanata

*Finding the Tengu*

Finding the Tengu is an adventure in a Japanese Fantasy Setting requiring lots of diplomacy by low-level characters in order to retrieve a child kidnapped by a tengu.


----------



## greywulf

kensanata said:
			
		

> Finding the Tengu is an adventure in a Japanese Fantasy Setting requiring lots of diplomacy by low-level characters in order to retrieve a child kidnapped by a tengu.




Looking good!


----------



## greywulf

I've updated The Scarlet Sea to include the version with Bert's own maps and changed place names. It's now possible to play it using either the WoTC-owned maps or Bert's own. Your choice 

I'll add the pocketmod for this version next time I reboot into Windows.


----------



## Bert the Ogre

And I've also submitted a new adventure to Greywulf. I need to start looking for cover art, or doing other stuff to make it look more "Professional." 

Other than that, any feedback would be appreciated!


----------



## snikle

Bert, I hope you do not mind, I took the map you had created for the scarlet sea campaign and worked it up in my style. I sent it to greywulf so that he could include it on the main site if he wishes.
If you want you can view it here:
http://www.fouruglymonsters.com/community/showthread.php?p=12765#post12765


----------



## greywulf

Aw c'mon! YOU GUYS ARE GREAT!!!!!!

I've added snickle's map to The Scarlet Sea page. Really, it makes a great mini-campaign setting. Bert, I'd love to see more adventures set in and around the location. It could easily become m20's "default" campaign setting. Kinda like a microlite Greyhawk. Only better supported. With cooler locations. And better villains. 

Ok, not like Greyhawk at all 

I've also created a page for The Slave Raiders of Rockwall too. I'm not going to give anything away what this is about, but I think that the words "Drow Caves map" might be a clue!

I'll get the pocketbooks posted up today for both adventures and update the Macropedia index too. Kensanata has added some great critters from his campaign into the wiki too. All must be accounted for


----------



## Bert the Ogre

I'll keep writing them as long as my imagination holds out, and people seem interested. I'm working on a third adventure already, with any luck it should be ready by next weekend. I tend to write when it's slow at work, or at home. I have one of those jobs where either I'm jumping non-stop, or I've got several hours to kill. At home, it's homework with the kids, or something else along those lines.

I'll try not to give away the plot in my map naming in the future!     I guess the next time, I'll just name the caves "Caves under the Keep" so as to not give away the secret.

WOW! I just flipped over to look at the "New Map" and that is amazing!!! I guess I can just "Rough Sketch" the maps out, and let someone else smooth them out for "publication!"


----------



## snikle

Thanks Bert, that was actually a pretty fun map to make, made it over the course of about 4 hours last night while doing a million other things. I think your campaign looks great and adds a nice addition to the m20 line. If I get time, I will work on some other maps.

Wulf, I think you got a winner here. m20 is really spurring people to do some amazing stuff.


----------



## Bert the Ogre

snikle said:
			
		

> Thanks Bert, that was actually a pretty fun map to make, made it over the course of about 4 hours last night while doing a million other things. I think your campaign looks great and adds a nice addition to the m20 line. If I get time, I will work on some other maps.
> 
> Wulf, I think you got a winner here. m20 is really spurring people to do some amazing stuff.




Hey Snikle!

Should I send the maps directly to you, or just shoot the files to Greywulf, where he can post the "rough sketches" along with the write up? I certianly appreciate you turning my rough copy into something much more professional looking, but I don't want to impose on your time. Feel free to PM me at your leisure.


----------



## kensanata

*Map Drawing*

Bert, don't underestimate the fun of doing something you believe you're good at. I love drawing maps. I loved it so much in fact that when I was younger I had all the provinces of my campaign mapped out first, and not much of a plot to go with it.  Feel free to put up requests for maps in text form only, and I'm willing to give it a try. Please note my style is totally different from snikle's style, of course. I'm uploading my maps to Flickr and adding them to the Dungeons & Dragons group; adding a few more might get some sort of map drawing community going.


----------



## kensanata

*Polearms*

You all ignore "this weapon has reach" stuff when playing M20, right? I don't feel like simulating armies marching shoulder to shoulder using polearms. I think the chicos & chicas in Soulblade also like to use polearms, reach or no reach.


----------



## Bert the Ogre

This is FABULOUS! I'll do a rough sketch, or include maps from whatever source I find, and scan and email to either you or Snikle, then write up the adventure from my rough. Between the three of us, we should be able to create some great adventures, and post it on Greywulf's site. 

If we create from scratch, WoTC's sharks, er, lawyers, won't be able to grumble about copyright. This will keep everything OGL, and all we have to do is include the OGL page on any document we write up.

I can also stick to seven page write-ups, leave the 8th page for the OGL, and have your maps as seperate D/Ls, sort of like the old seperate covers from the old modules from my day.

I've got my notes for the next adventure set up already, and I should be able to have everything ready by next weekend. The Micro-Format of 6-8 pages in large font, and the "pebble" stats for the monsters/NPCs lets me concentrate on the story and plot over giving up large blocks of space for all the "quick reference data" of WoTC's boulder stats.


----------



## greywulf

kensanata said:
			
		

> You all ignore "this weapon has reach" stuff when playing M20, right? I don't feel like simulating armies marching shoulder to shoulder using polearms. I think the chicos & chicas in Soulblade also like to use polearms, reach or no reach.




Yep, You'll find no reach rules in Microlite20. That doesn't mean there's rules for weapons with no reach, but that there aren't any reach rules. When I say "no reach" I don't mean "no reach", I mean "no reach" as in "there are no reach rules", not "there are rules for using weapons without reach".

Is that clear?

That said, if someone comes at you with a polearm and you're wielding a dagger, he's likely to Hit You First. I'd give them a bonus to their initiative roll or something. But don't quote me and go and call it a rule or something, ok?

Interestingly, this would work with the Mass Combat rules. I could imagine a unit of 50 polearm wielding Fighters (16hp, AC 16, +4 Glaive 1d8+2) meeting a charging horde of 60 Orcs (5hp, AC 13, +4 Falchion 2d4+4) and getting a +2 initiative bonus as they ready against the onslaught. They could wipe out almost the entire Orcish horde in a single stand of glory.

I like!

(but it's still not a rule. And it's not a "no reach weapon". ok?)

EDIT: It sounds like you three are getting the act together regarding adventures too, so I'll step back and trust you're experienceness in all this. Kensanata or myself can post stuff up to http://home.greywulf.net/m20 ok (masterful wikiers that we are), and I'm more than happy for anyone else to post too - just hit "edit this page" and start typing


----------



## kensanata

I started digging up my old folders with RPG materials from my highschool years. Scanned them in and added them to my Flickr set. Just to give you an idea for the kind of stuff I used to do.


----------



## greywulf

kensanata said:
			
		

> I started digging up my old folders with RPG materials from my highschool years. Scanned them in and added them to my Flickr set. Just to give you an idea for the kind of stuff I used to do.




I highly recommend a look at Kensanata's maps.

I want this beauty as a poster!!

Superb.


----------



## snikle

Yeah that one is very nice. 

Bert, just send them to wulf, I will do some when I can, but I am pretty busy right now, and possibly about to get insanely busy if a side project of mine takes off that greywulf and I talked about last night.....which might play out nicely for m20.

and Bert, I would PM you, but you dont have it authorized, you got any IMs?


----------



## WSmith

greywulf said:
			
		

> That said, if someone comes at you with a polearm and you're wielding a dagger, he's likely to Hit You First. I'd give them a bonus to their initiative roll or something. But don't quote me and go and call it a rule or something, ok?




In the first round of combat at least, I would let the polearm automatically strike first. There me sticking to the Olde Tyme D&D roots again!


----------



## greywulf

WSmith said:
			
		

> In the first round of combat at least, I would let the polearm automatically strike first. There me sticking to the Olde Tyme D&D roots again!




Yep, doing it the old way is best 

Who needs all those silly Reach rules when you can give give 'em a bonus to Initiative for having a longer weapon (or bigger size) and leave it at that. Fewer rules = good.

We only role initiative once in combat (unless something really strange happens), but after the first advantage of getting first strike is done, it's pretty cyclic anyhow.


----------



## kensanata

Options like letting polearm wielders attack from the second row, but giving them a penalty if the guy in front of them uses a weapon that needs to swing back (axe, bola, sling) or rules like you have reach but cannot attack a person next to you are too complicated for my feeble brain. First attack or +2 for initiative seem like two good options. Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## Bert the Ogre

snikle said:
			
		

> Yeah that one is very nice.
> 
> Bert, just send them to wulf, I will do some when I can, but I am pretty busy right now, and possibly about to get insanely busy if a side project of mine takes off that greywulf and I talked about last night.....which might play out nicely for m20.
> 
> and Bert, I would PM you, but you dont have it authorized, you got any IMs?




Oops! Might have helped if I had read over the profile information a bit more.     I don't have PM here, so I added my Yahoo IM.


----------



## greywulf

Thanks for adding that to the site, Kensanata. 

I'm planning to put the monsters and equipment up onto the site as a page too, so all of the rules are available online as well as on PDFs.

There's a reason for this. Something to do with a project I'm working on with Snikle


----------



## snikle

yeah I like either an init bonus or allowing them to simply reach the targets from farther away, I would gather that a few guys with polearms could keep guys with swords at bay pretty easy if they were skilled in the use.


----------



## Mark CMG

greywulf said:
			
		

> Something to do with a project I'm working on with Snikle





A _secret_ project?


----------



## Necromas

Wow, I just discovered this thread and damn does this look like an awesome idea. I'll have to convince some players to try one of those campaigns with it.

Congrats on comming up with all this stuff!


----------



## snikle

Yeah I am testing the waters on something, and by the looks of it, it may just happen. Interest, and support, is starting to take off. I may announce something on this very soon.


----------



## greywulf

Let's just say that it's something /very/ tentative right now, so we don't want to announce anything without looking foolish if nothing happens 

But if it does, you guys will be among the first to know!

Nothing mysterious, just cool. Promise


----------



## greywulf

Necromas said:
			
		

> Wow, I just discovered this thread and damn does this look like an awesome idea. I'll have to convince some players to try one of those campaigns with it.
> 
> Congrats on comming up with all this stuff!




Thanks, Necromas. It's good to have you on board. Welcome to our little world 

600+ posts, 10,000+ views. All for something with a wordcount under 900. Just....wow....


----------



## kensanata

The Kappa Scourge is adventure involving the lair of seven bandits, inspired by "The Bandits of Orbless" by Frostmarrow, with a new map, a Japanesque background, and a traitor.


----------



## greywulf

kensanata said:
			
		

> The Kappa Scourge is adventure involving the lair of seven bandits, inspired by "The Bandits of Orbless" by Frostmarrow, with a new map, a Japanesque background, and a traitor.




Kensanata, I'm getting a 404


----------



## Frostmarrow

kensanata said:
			
		

> The Kappa Scourge is adventure involving the lair of seven bandits, inspired by "The Bandits of Orbless" by Frostmarrow, with a new map, a Japanesque background, and a traitor.




Cool. I'm honored. I get a 404 too but you just made my day! 

Oh and I fixed you link above.


----------



## greywulf

Yep. That worked  Changing Kappe to Kappa gets the file. S'good.

The adventure look great, and definitely pocketmodable too. I /really/ need to reboot to Windows and get some serious conversion done. 

We're gaming in Ptolus using full-on d20 tomorrow night, but also generating M20 characters for one of my players games the week after. I hope to add them to the Sample Characters page of the Macropedia afterwards. 

Meantime, if any of you could be so kind as to put characters up there too (just press the "Edit this page" link at the bottom of that page), I'd appreciate it. The more Sample Characters we can have in M20, the better


----------



## Angel Tarragon

16 frickin pages?!   

Is there anyway to start a new thread on this and lock this one down. 

Very cool system Greywulf. How go the revamps? Or are you already done with them?


----------



## greywulf

Frukathka said:
			
		

> 16 frickin pages?!
> Is there anyway to start a new thread on this and lock this one down.
> Very cool system Greywulf. How go the revamps? Or are you already done with them?




I like that it's 16 pages long. That's.....um....14 pages longer than the rules themselves  Keeps it all together though, which is good. I'm tempted to pick out the best of the posts and stick them on a page at http://home.greywulf.net/m20. Then we could start a new thread, maybe 

The Revised Core Rules is just a (better) rewording of the basic Core Rules with nothing new added. You're free to use whichever you want (in, say, your own game system), or rewrite it yourself. The rules themselves are closed off though. I'm not going to add or take anything away. Anything else goes into the Macropedia as optional.

I have been thinking of an Ultramicrolite20 variant that just uses M20-style skills and a level modifier, but that'll wait for now.


----------



## snikle

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> A _secret_ project?




I am working on getting an online gaming convention going, still in the early stages, and will most likely be something small and indie in feel, but I have asked Greywulf if he would like to participate with m20, maybe run some games, perhaps an interview about his amazing little game system. 
If you would like more information, you can check the forum on FUM where we are discussing it in more detail:
http://www.fouruglymonsters.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=64


----------



## kensanata

greywulf said:
			
		

> The adventure look great, and definitely pocketmodable too.




Maybe it's the age... But I cannot imagine this stuff as a pocketmod. You'll need owl eyes to decipher it... Then again, you could just bring a huge looking glass along. +2 for coolness, if the GM has to pull out his huge looking glass to check his sources.


----------



## greywulf

kensanata said:
			
		

> Maybe it's the age... But I cannot imagine this stuff as a pocketmod. You'll need owl eyes to decipher it... Then again, you could just bring a huge looking glass along. +2 for coolness, if the GM has to pull out his huge looking glass to check his sources.




Microlite20....the RPG that's so small, you need a magnifying glass to play! Lol 

Snik, we keep missing each other. Darn!

One of the things I volunteered to do was run a Microlite20 game online, so folks could see how it played and experience the whole virtual gaming thing first-hand. I'm also going to be answering questions, talking about M20 and stuff. Snik said something about a podcast interview. As he said, it's oily days yet.

While it might not actually get used for the game, I thought it would be cool to create someplace where folks can game M20 online that's equally small and light, so I created M20 Online. It's a chatwindow/local chatserver with dicerolling, multiple rooms (everyone starts in the tavern, create your own from there), no registration crap, nothing to download. In line with Microlite20's design philosophies it's about as tiny as it can be, and still be usable. There's links to the rules, monsters, spells and stuff too, so it's pretty much self contained. You can game with no books or reference material needed. Which is nice.

All that's needed is players and an agreed time to meet. After that, it's up to you


----------



## kensanata

*A Time To Meet*



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> All that's needed is players and an agreed time to meet. After that, it's up to you




Here in Switzerland Doodle is the web application to agree on times to meet. I totally recommend it. What I do is create a new poll with all the dates I might want to play and send the URL to all my players. They add themselves and everything else is obvious.


----------



## greywulf

I've posted up the rules for Ultramicrolite20 into the Macropedia. It's what posted below, plus a simple example. Here they are, in their entirety. This might be useful for those times when even Microlite20 is too rules heavy 

This is Microlite20 boiled down even further. It’s suitable for gaming while out walking (much like SHERPA) or when you’ve forgotten your gamebooks. There are no magic rules provided; either run a no magic game, or make spellcasting something only NPCs can do.

There are 3 stats - STR, DEX, MIND. Share a total of five points between them with a maximum of 4 in one. You can reduce one stat to -1 to get an extra point. These are your stat bonuses.

Choose one skill group (Physical, Subterfuge, Communication or Knowledge). Your character is at +4 to do anything relating to that skill group. Everything else is +1.

Actions are resolved by rolling 1d20+skill+relevant stat bonus. Roll equal or higher than the given Difficulty Class (DC) or higher than the opponent’s skill roll to succeed.

Combat is resolved using Physical+STR bonus (for melee) or Physical+DEX (for ranged). The DC is the opponent’s Armour Class. This is 10+DEX bonus+Armour. Leather is +3, Chain is +5, Plate is +5. A shield can add a further +1.

If you get hit three times in a single combat encounter, you’re unconscious. Roll phys+STR DC15 to survive. Larger critters can take more hits before dying; that’s up to the GM.

If you survive ten combats, add one to all of your skills.


----------



## Bert the Ogre

greywulf said:
			
		

> Microlite20....the RPG that's so small, you need a magnifying glass to play! Lol
> 
> Snik, we keep missing each other. Darn!
> 
> One of the things I volunteered to do was run a Microlite20 game online, so folks could see how it played and experience the whole virtual gaming thing first-hand. I'm also going to be answering questions, talking about M20 and stuff. Snik said something about a podcast interview. As he said, it's oily days yet.
> 
> While it might not actually get used for the game, I thought it would be cool to create someplace where folks can game M20 online that's equally small and light, so I created M20 Online. It's a chatwindow/local chatserver with dicerolling, multiple rooms (everyone starts in the tavern, create your own from there), no registration crap, nothing to download. In line with Microlite20's design philosophies it's about as tiny as it can be, and still be usable. There's links to the rules, monsters, spells and stuff too, so it's pretty much self contained. You can game with no books or reference material needed. Which is nice.
> 
> All that's needed is players and an agreed time to meet. After that, it's up to you




How about surfing over to RPOL.net, and setting up a game? Everyone interested can req. to join, you select who you want, and off we go.

As a suggestion and a shameless plug, try "Slave Raiders of Rockwall." Straight Role-playing for the beginning, "roll-playing" at the Abandoned Keep and "the unnamed caves under the keep, certianly not Drow or anything like that..." (Gotta keep secrets from the players!)

I know I'd certianly like to play a game or three. I have been quite busy this week, so I'm behind the power curve on my next adventure, but "the last minute" is all I need with such simple stats!


----------



## greywulf

Bert the Ogre said:
			
		

> How about surfing over to RPOL.net, and setting up a game? Everyone interested can req. to join, you select who you want, and off we go.
> 
> As a suggestion and a shameless plug, try "Slave Raiders of Rockwall." Straight Role-playing for the beginning, "roll-playing" at the Abandoned Keep and "the unnamed caves under the keep, certianly not Drow or anything like that..." (Gotta keep secrets from the players!)
> 
> I know I'd certianly like to play a game or three. I have been quite busy this week, so I'm behind the power curve on my next adventure, but "the last minute" is all I need with such simple stats!




rpol.net looks like a good way to go, Bert, yep. It would be a good showcase for that site too, and hopefully generate a lot of interest. I'll explore more. 

I'm sorely tempted to use "Slave Raiders" for the game; so much so that I'm going to play it through with my group next week, just to see how it runs. When it comes to the online game I'll definitely shift things around a little, so you can play and get a few surprises too


----------



## kensanata

I've been trying the pocketmod thing for my Kappa Scourge adventure. It turns out that I have to use font size 13 pt to get my text on a 8 pages. Then I use OSX Preview to print 2 pages one one, and then 4 pages on one, getting me eight pages on one. This is just an experiment; I would use the Combine PDFs application later to rotate and reorder pages. See if you don't need a looking glass! I give up. I must publish it in two volumes, or find a better way of folding it. 

(No attachment because "File Too Large. Limit for this filetype is 244.1 KB. Your file is 1.20 MB." Oh well.)


----------



## kensanata

Frostmarrow said:
			
		

> But without further ado I hereby present *The Bandits of Orbless* - a Microlite20 adventure for levels 1-3.




I don't think this file is for download anywhere expect from the EN World thread (and thus for members only). Greywulf, can you put it up on the Macropedia? Then I can link to it from my inspiration credits.


----------



## greywulf

kensanata said:
			
		

> I don't think this file is for download anywhere expect from the EN World thread (and thus for members only). Greywulf, can you put it up on the Macropedia? Then I can link to it from my inspiration credits.




No problem. Just point me in the direction of the original download, and I'll upload and put a page on the Macropedia.

Coming soon: stuff. And lots of it


----------



## Frostmarrow

greywulf said:
			
		

> No problem. Just point me in the direction of the original download, and I'll upload and put a page on the Macropedia.
> 
> Coming soon: stuff. And lots of it




Here it is:

http://www.enworld.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=26579


----------



## greywulf

Thanks 

I'll post it up when I update more content tomorrow. I'm beat tonight.


----------



## greywulf

I've uploaded it here  (direct pdf link) and added it to the Macropedia contents page.


----------



## Bert the Ogre

Thank goodness someone else posted an adventure! I've had a busy week, and I haven't finished (in fact, I've barely started) my third adventure!

I'll get busy tomorrow morning.


----------



## greywulf

I've added Magic Item Creation rules to the Macropedia, because it came up in another thread.


----------



## kensanata

*Disarming & Tripping*

Some Japanese weapons are built to disarm or trip your opponent (some chain weapons, or the jitte used by law enforcement against swordsmen). I therefore needed very simple disarming and tripping rules. My current proposals have not been playtested, yet. What have others been using?

My proposal makes it simpler and easier to trip or disarm than the rules in the DMG; but then again the risk is greater (no second roll to be disarmed yourself, and you need to wield a special weapon that usually does but 1d4 damage).


----------



## Frostmarrow

greywulf said:
			
		

> I've uploaded it here  (direct pdf link) and added it to the Macropedia contents page.




Cool  I'm published. Does that make me a writer?


----------



## greywulf

kensanata said:
			
		

> My proposal makes it simpler and easier to trip or disarm than the rules in the DMG; but then again the risk is greater (no second roll to be disarmed yourself, and you need to wield a special weapon that usually does but 1d4 damage).




My suggestion for disarm and trip is to use this rule for both (and any other special effect type attack):

Roll an attack at -8 to hit against d20+your opponent’s to hit bonus. If you roll higher, you succeed. If not, combat continues. If you’re using a weapon designed for the purpose (a sai to disarm, chain to trip, etc) then roll attack -4 instead.

Example: Boris the town guard tries to disarm Edgar the Rogue. He’s at +8 to hit and using a broadsword. He is (+8-8=) +0 against Edgar’s +12 shortsword. He rolls well - an 18, and Edgar rolls d20+12 for just 16. Edgar’s shortsword goes flying and he raises his hands in the air. It’s a fair cop.

Example: Boris’ investigations into a crime ring leads him down a dark alley where Lady Seera is hiding. He draws his trusty broadsword and hears the rattle of a chain in her hands as she lunges. She’s +10 with the chain, and tried to trip him so she can run past next round. She is (+10-4=) +6 against Boris’ +8 and rolls a total of 21. Rolls lucks out with a natural 20 for a total of 28, easily avoiding the trip attempt. Seera bares her teeth in a snarl, revealing long, vicious incisors. Boris thinks maybe that was one roll it would have been better to fail…….

Slightly more complex example: Boris has been sold into slavery by the crime ring. He finds a chance to escape one night and ends up fleeing through open country for his life. A lizardman chasing him throws a mancatcher spear. It’s a longhafted weapon with a hinged circle of iron at the tip designed to snap shut around a captive’s neck. The lizardman is at +9, -4 for range and -4 to hit the neck. That’s d20 +1 for a total of 11. Boris is +8, -4 because he’s unarmed and at a big disadvantage. He rolls a total of 7. The impact of the spear sends him flying into the mud, the iron jaws snapped shut about his neck. Things don’t look good for Boris.


----------



## greywulf

Frostmarrow said:
			
		

> Cool  I'm published. Does that make me a writer?




I think calling yourself a writer makes you a writer. Or something.

Call yourself puslished when we see the first Microlite20 hardcover


----------



## Darrell

greywulf said:
			
		

> Call yourself puslished when we see the first Microlite20 hardcover




I can see it now.  Hardcover, credits on the inside front cover, OGL license on the inside back cover, and one page containing the rules.


----------



## greywulf

Darrell said:
			
		

> I can see it now.  Hardcover, credits on the inside front cover, OGL license on the inside back cover, and one page containing the rules.




Yups 

Of course, if it was produced by WoTC that one page hardback would have a 16 page Web Enhancement, 32 page errata and 64 page FAQ...............


----------



## Darrell

greywulf said:
			
		

> Of course, if it was produced by WoTC that one page hardback would have a 16 page Web Enhancement, 32 page errata and 64 page FAQ...............




And would sell for US$24.95.


----------



## Bretbo

Could a 2 3/4 in by 4 1/2 in hardback book even be produced? (roughly Pocket M20 size)


----------



## greywulf

Bretbo said:
			
		

> Could a 2 3/4 in by 4 1/2 in hardback book even be produced? (roughly Pocket M20 size)




Sure! 

I'm not sure it would be, y'know, economically viable though. I'm tempted to stick it on lulu.com though, just to see if anyone bites.

We could always put "Dragon" in the title...........


----------



## Greyharp

Bretbo said:
			
		

> Could a 2 3/4 in by 4 1/2 in hardback book even be produced? (roughly Pocket M20 size)




I have a book published by the Folio Society which is 4 1/2 x 3 1/4 and then there are those miniature 1st Edition AD&D hardbacks published by an Italian firm I believe, I'm not sure of their dimensions but it must be something similar. So anything is possible....although reading that link about the world's smallest book Greywulf, trying to imagine how it was physically put together makes my brain hurt....I think pocketmod size is just right.


----------



## greywulf

To you all:

Thanks for keeping me fired up about Microlite20 over the past few months. Thank you for coming up with adventures, settings, rules and more, all for something that started life as a little post on another thread. Thanks for grokking the rules, and helping me improve them to the point where we've got the first (and possibly only) backpocket d20 compatible rules-system using the pocketmod format. Thanks for your ideas, inspiration, and encouragement. Long may it continue! 

I wish you all a very _Micro_ Christmas!!


----------



## snikle

Make one this size, http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2003/minibook-0514.html and I will buy it! 

 Merry Christmas!


----------



## kensanata

I'd be a lot happier if I'd actually get to play these days. But no. All the family dads need to spend time at home instead of going on some adventures...


----------



## Pilsnerquest

Hey all, 

   Been haunting the EN Microlite20 forum since Snikle pointed all of us this way from FUM where we've been using, and abusing, the rules. Love the ruleset and the continuous ideas, improvements and additions to them. Here's a couple of houserules that have been thrown into the mix.

Renown
As characters adventure around the realms they become more and more well-known as news of incredible feats done by great heroes travels fast and fame soon follows. Foul deeds done by the not-so-good also garners lots of attention and word spreads quickly to watch for the newest threat to the good people of the land. 
Renown is gained exactly the same as Encounter Levels, however it is cumulative and does not reset as Encounter Levels do. GM’s may choose to assign titles to characters who achieve high levels of Renown, such as Lord, Master Thief, Grand Wizard, Priest, etc. 

Creates a little competition between players as to who is the greatest hero around.​
Overwhelming the Opponent
Each attacker beyond the first against the same target in the same round adds +1 to their attack rolls for each attacker before them. So, a second attack on the same target in the same round by a party member would be at +1, a third attack at +2, etc.​
This is a nice one that keeps parties working together, especially against devious GM creations.


Pilsnerquest


----------



## kensanata

I've been using the Kitsunemori Campaign Setting Prestige rules: Characters start with a prestige score equal to their WILL score. You can use it for prestige contests when staring each other down ("pulling rank"), or against a DC to see whether villagers or other people recognize them. Use DC 5 for populated regions and DC 20 for hermits... Whenever players do foul or noble deeds, they get to check prestige: If 1d20 + prestige bonus > current prestige, their prestige rises by 1 if doing noble deeds; if the test fails when doing a foul deed, prestige drops by 1 instead. I've used it when players paid respecct at a famous shrine and when players entered a new village.


----------



## Pilsnerquest

> I've been using the Kitsunemori Campaign Setting Prestige rules: Characters start with a prestige score equal to their WILL score. You can use it for prestige contests when staring each other down ("pulling rank"), or against a DC to see whether villagers or other people recognize them. Use DC 5 for populated regions and DC 20 for hermits... Whenever players do foul or noble deeds, they get to check prestige: If 1d20 + prestige bonus > current prestige, their prestige rises by 1 if doing noble deeds; if the test fails when doing a foul deed, prestige drops by 1 instead. I've used it when players paid respecct at a famous shrine and when players entered a new village.




That's a neat system for player recognition, especially how you relate it to a DC check. I had been using my Renown stat as a kind of competition between players by keeping a Renown list. Players come and go and characters perish but they are always left on the list so all players can see how they rank against the heroes of the present and the past.

Pilsnerquest


----------



## kensanata

I've also been planning to use it as a substitute for appropriate behaviour in social situations, eg. at court. My Japanese setting would have lots of opportunities ranging from tea ceremony to burials, receptions, and so on. While some of us have some interest in Japanese culture, and one of us has a Japanese wife, the rest does not really care so much. So I will need a shortcut that keeps these other players in the loop.


----------



## greywulf

Pilsnerquest & kensanata: This is what I like about M20 more than anything else - the core rules are so small, they just beg to be added to and made your own. It makes a change to handling monolithic systems where even the slightest alteration is approached with trepidation. Mentioning no game systems by name, of course 

The ideas for Renown, Prestige and Overwhelming an Opponent deserve entry into the Microlite20 Macropedia , so that's where they're going. 

We're in discussion right now about the HP cost for spell points. As it currently stands, to cast a spell you expend HP equal to double the Spell Level +1 (ie, 1/3/5/7/9, etc). That works well for lower-level gaming, but at higher levels is can be restrictive without some kind of magic item to fuel the spells. Put simply, Mages run out of HP too quickly.

A proposed solution for a higher-magic campaign is to make the HP cost double Spell level -1 so the progression becomes 0/1/3/5/7/9 - a shift to the right. Magi and Clerics could cast 3+MIND bonus 0-level spells per day for free. After that, they also cost 1HP. That brings the cost inline with the psionics PP cost from the SRD. Under this system, it's suggested to also ditch the cheaper cost for favoured spells.

I'm going to put this into the Macropedia as an optional rule for higher-magic games, and would appreciate your input.............

Over to you!


----------



## kensanata

*Prestige*

I rewrote my Prestige proposal on the M20 website to include examples etc.


----------



## Ry

This thread's getting brutally long... very difficult to jump into.  Any chance of a new thread?


----------



## Ry

One question for greywulf:

How do you feel about ideas from this getting lifted for Rank20?  There's a lot of things in Microlite20 that are just better and clearer than Rank20, but I think I'd rather keep my Rank and Conviction/Reserve mechanics as the underlying.


----------



## kensanata

I think the thread is ok. When joining a conversation in a room, you also don't need to recap everything. The last two pages is enough. 

I don't know about Greywulf's feelings, but at least legally you're safe, if you're taking his ideas, since they are not patented. Originally, all ideas were free. Then people started to grant patents on ideas with industrial application. Roleplaying games are not there – yet, hehe.

And if you want to do copies or incorporate it into other works, creating derivatives, I think all you need to do is follow the OGL attached to all the documents.

"Down with hoarding!"


----------



## greywulf

rycanada said:
			
		

> One question for greywulf:
> 
> How do you feel about ideas from this getting lifted for Rank20?  There's a lot of things in Microlite20 that are just better and clearer than Rank20, but I think I'd rather keep my Rank and Conviction/Reserve mechanics as the underlying.




Hi, rycanada! Please feel free to lift, plagiarise and do whatever thou wilt with Microlite20. Pick bits out. Add bits in. Shake it all about. I'm happy if it just makes people think about how they game, so if they use it (all or in part) then that's fine by me. Credit me if you like. Or don't. I really don't mind either way, though a little credit does go a long way toward making me smile 

I'm interested in what you like though. Considering there's so little in the Core Rules  for Microlite20, I'm interested what folks like/dislike about it. Feedback is always welcome 

As regards there being a new thread. Sure, if you want one, go right ahead and create one. Tell folks what you're using M20 for, why it's the greatest littlest game system on the planet. Or just keep adding to this humongous beast of a thread. I don't mind either way! The more Microlite20 gets spread around and inspiring other gamers to take a break from using rulebooks to weight-train each gaming session, all the better for the hobby.

I played in a friend's D&D session last week and he announced that he's going to scrap the XP system in favour of Microlite20's EL-based advancement. This from a friend who's not gamed M20 with us, but heard the buzz, snarfed the .pdf (without me knowing - the rotter!) and absorbed a little piece of simplicity into his game. It's fun when your children come back to you in this way. I was so proud. Sniff.

Oh, and I'm in the middle of planning a 3-session d20 Modern adventure before starting my Ptolus campaign. There's likely to be a Microlite20 adventure in between those, in which I try to push the system to it's limit. More on that another time, though.


----------



## Ry

The best thing was ditching CON and rolling it into STR - and my Reserve (drama point) mechanic can do some of the other work of soaking damage.  

Also, my stats range 1-6 (i.e. -1 through +4 stat modifiers, but positive numbers only)

So an average PC has a 3 STR - so when I read Ultramicrolite20's "Three hit" rule I went "Yoink!"  That's now a "You can be hit as many times as your STR, then you go down.  You can spend a Reserve point to remove 1 hit."


----------



## greywulf

Hey, I like that idea! Mind if I yoink your yoink?


----------



## Ry

Of course.  Here's those Reserve mechanics in Ultramicrolite20 terms:

You have a Reserve equal to your Mind stat plus your highest skill.  You spend it as below.



		Code:
	

Action                             Cost
Add 1d6 to a check	            1 
Add 2d6 to a check                  2
Remove 1 hit                        1
Take an extra action on your turn   2


If you could figure out how to adjudicate a "Magic" skill, you could add "Use the Magic skill" with a cost of 1.


----------



## derek_cleric

*Yet another derivative of Microlite 20!*

Hey all!

I've been working on making a lite d20-based game for some time now and with the help of ML20, I have created the game that I've wanted ever since I first saw the SRD. I combined ML20, Basic Fantasy Role-Playing Game and my own Warriors and Wizards into YADoML20 called, Lite20 (because everything else is too fat!).

http://www.personal.psu.edu/tss109/dnd/L20/index.html

It's still very much a work in progress.  

--Ray.

EDIT: Updated URL.


----------



## Fifth Element

derek_cleric said:
			
		

> Hey all!
> 
> I've been working on making a lite d20-based game for some time now and with the help of ML20, I have created the game that I've wanted ever since I first saw the SRD. I combined ML20, Basic Fantasy Role-Playing Game and my own Warriors and Wizards into YADoML20 called, Lite20 (because everything else is too fat!).
> 
> http://home.psknet.com/allenr/dnd/L20/index.html
> 
> It's still very much a work in progress.




System _Reference _Document. First page says System Resource Document.


----------



## derek_cleric

Fifth Element said:
			
		

> System _Reference _Document. First page says System Resource Document.




Whoops! Fixed. Very much a work in progress!  
--Ray.


----------



## WSmith

Hey, Ray! Nice seeing you here.  

I will peruse the downloads and get back to you.


----------



## WSmith

Ray, I get a "Not Found" error for all of the files. 

On a side note, would anyone be interested in a M20 pbp game?


----------



## derek_cleric

WSmith said:
			
		

> Ray, I get a "Not Found" error for all of the files.
> 
> On a side note, would anyone be interested in a M20 pbp game?




That's what happens when you upload the wrong html file then delete the old page from the old server! The links worked last night because I hadn't yet deleted the old page.  Fixed.

Nice to see you too.  

--Ray.


----------



## greywulf

derek_cleric said:
			
		

> Hey all!
> 
> I've been working on making a lite d20-based game for some time now and with the help of ML20, I have created the game that I've wanted ever since I first saw the SRD. I combined ML20, Basic Fantasy Role-Playing Game and my own Warriors and Wizards into YADoML20 called, Lite20 (because everything else is too fat!).
> 
> http://home.psknet.com/allenr/dnd/L20/index.html
> 
> It's still very much a work in progress.
> 
> --Ray.




Hi, Ray!

By the looks of it, you've taken all of Microlite20, added XP back in and changed Magic so it uses Spell Points. I hope it works for you. 

I don't see where it says how many Spell Points are gained each level. Maybe I'm just being blind today. I'm not too sure about your idea or Sorcerers being able to double spell numerical values. You don't say how often they can do that, and that would become VERY powerful very quickly where even a double-power fireball could end a climactic battle before it's even begun.

I'd be interested to see how it plays again, though I suspect it'll run just like Microlite20 - fast, fluid and focus more on fun than rules decisions. 

I do like your Monsters & Treasure supplement, a lot. It's a little heavy at 70 pages, but does a good job of pulling in the core critters in a lighter-that-normal form. Good work on that


----------



## derek_cleric

greywulf said:
			
		

> Hi, Ray!
> 
> By the looks of it, you've taken all of Microlite20, added XP back in and changed Magic so it uses Spell Points. I hope it works for you.




That's pretty much describes it. We're enjoying it very much!



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> I don't see where it says how many Spell Points are gained each level. Maybe I'm just being blind today.




Just like ML20, Spell Points are equal to a character's max hit points. However the SP number does not go down when the character takes damage. It's on the character sheet but I need to add it to the rules too.



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> I'm not too sure about your idea or Sorcerers being able to double spell numerical values. You don't say how often they can do that, and that would become VERY powerful very quickly where even a double-power fireball could end a climactic battle before it's even begun.




Good catch! I forgot to add that the spell will cost twice as many spell points.



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> I'd be interested to see how it plays again, though I suspect it'll run just like Microlite20 - fast, fluid and focus more on fun than rules decisions.




My group play tested v0.05 about 3 weeks ago and it ran just as you describe above. Blame it on the parent system.    The group seems to think it would be a great system for our online game.



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> I do like your Monsters & Treasure supplement, a lot. It's a little heavy at 70 pages, but does a good job of pulling in the core critters in a lighter-that-normal form. Good work on that




Thanks! I have to give 95% of the credit to the author of BFRPG, Chris Gonnerman. I just reformatted the text and made some adjustments to hit dice and attacks. I've always preferred the Classic DnD monster stat block to any that of any other system.

I still have the skills and feats in the stats blocks. I have to decide what to do about that. I'm thinking that the monster's HD or HD/2 could be used in place of skill points. For example, an ogre would be good at physical so they would use a +4 but not so good at any of the other three so a +2 would be used. Feats will be dropped. I just haven't done it yet.

The Treasures section has yet to be reviewed but I suspect they are 90% usable. M&T is also the least developed part of L20 but I think it will probably need the least amount of work.

--Ray.


----------



## Pilsnerquest

I'm not sure who worked up the ultramicrolite20 rules (rycanada?) but I had mostly skipped over them until finally they caught my eye. I tweaked them a tad to give characters some depth, multiclass type ability and magic while bidding a fond ado to character levels. Each bump of a stat gives a character some ability, armor use, more spell casting, sneak attacks, cleaving, etc. I still have some empty spots, one under Strength and one under Dexterity, any ideas to fill them in?

"There are 3 stats - STR, DEX, and MIND. Share a total of five points between them; you can reduce one stat to -1 to get an extra point. These are your stat bonuses."



		Code:
	

Stat   Strength	             Dexterity	                     Mind
-1	  -	                  -	                       -
0	  -	                  -	                       -
+1	 Use a shield	      Use light armor	       Use scrolls/wands
+2	 Use medium armor         ?                    -5 per spell per day*
+3	 Use heavy armor      Use Dex for attacks      -4 per spell per day*
+4	 2 hits w/ 2h weapon  Two attacks @ -2         -3 per spell per day*
+5	 Cleave	              Sneak attack	       -2 per spell per day*
+6	 ?	              Assassinate              -1 per spell per day*
* See “Magic”, penalty to magic roll


Here's the blurb on magic...

Magic
Characters cast spells by drawing from the energy around them or by petitioning their god, then channeling this power through their body and releasing it as a spell. Spells take a toll on the caster and each additional spell cast that day suffers a cumulative penalty to the magic roll depending on the caster’s MIND stat. A character may rest for 8 hours to refresh. 
To cast a spell a caster makes a magic roll, d20 + MIND bonus. Every 5 points of the magic roll adds 1 point of effect. For instance, a wandering priest wishes to cast a healing spell. He makes a magic roll and gets a 14 then adds his +2 MIND bonus = 16. So his healing spell would heal 3 hits. A spell will always have at least 1 point of effect if the magic roll is not 0 or below.
To attack an opponent with a spell the caster must beat the target’s armor class if making a physical attack, such as a magical flaming arrow. If making an attack on the opponent’s mind then the caster must beat the opponent’s d20 + MIND roll. If the character casts a spell that effects an area, such as a ball of fire targeting an empty square, he does not need to beat any opponent’s defense and anyone in the area may make a DEX roll to take no damage or partial damage. (GM’s discretion)
When a character casts a spell that affects an area, such as a ball of fire, the character must decide how to divide the magic roll between area and damage. For example, a mage casts a ball of fire with a d20 magic roll of 14 and his MIND bonus of +3 = 17. For every 5 points of the magic roll the mage may get 1 square radius of effect away from the target square at the cost of damage. He must decide if he wants 1 square radius of area affected away from the target square and his opponents to take 2 hits of damage, or, 2 squares radius of area affected away from the target square and 1 hit to each person caught in the area.

Make sense?


Pilsnerquest


----------



## greywulf

I plead guilty to Ultramicrolite20 . It is to Microlite20 what M20 is to d20 - reduced and zenified down to just ten paragraphs. Scary, I know.

I like your rules for magic, and think they'd work well for uM20's big brother too. We used uM20 for a short WWII scenario and enjoyed the way it ran. It's on the backboiler for a little while, but I plan to use it for a project sometime in 2007. Can anyone say wiki-driven Fighting Fantasy-style dungeons?

Oh good 

When I hit that project, I'll be in need of an ultramicrolite magic system too.......


----------



## Ry

Yeah, I'm still working on making Rank20 more ultralite, which may have good things to poach for magic.  It's uber-simple right now, but my explanation of it is bloated.


----------



## Pilsnerquest

These ultramicrolite rules are really growing on me though compatibility with SRD D20 is flying out the window. Was mulling over how SRD spells would translate over to the simplified magic from the above post and how most everything can be resolved with the 5 points of magic roll = 1 point of effect. Then I hit resurrection and raising party members which added a surprising bit of possibility rp-wise. Threw in some bare-handed options below that for monk/ninja types.


Resurrection​It is possible for a character with magic ability to raise a fellow party member however it is an extremely dangerous undertaking with possibly serious consequences and you really should seek a professional. A caster makes a magic roll and for every 5 points of the magic roll the dead character receives 1 point to put back towards his/her stats, minimum of 1 point as long as the magic roll is 1 or more, and life is restored with 1 hit remaining. A resurrected character may not exceed their last stat point totals when being raised and therein is the danger. A bad magic roll can leave a character a shell of their former self, albeit alive, but unable to ever reach their original stat points.

Bare-Handed Fighting​In order to accommodate monk or ninja type characters bare-handed fighting may be used by considering all hits to be “non-lethal”. When an opponent is reduced to 0 hits they make their DC15 survival roll but instead of death occurring on a failed roll the opponent simply does not regain consciousness. In the next round the character may deliver a “death blow” which is pretty self explanatory.


Pilsnerquest


----------



## Ry

I'm just going to throw this out there (I deliberately left my Reserve rules out in case people don't want them):

*Rank20: Ultralite edition*

You have 3 stats: STR, DEX and INT.  Stats range from 1-6.
You have a Rank.  Characters start with a Rank of 4, and have three Rank modifiers:
   Class (=Rank):  This modifier is used when the action you take is something your class is good at.
   Cross-Class (=Rank/2): This modifier is used when the action is outside your class but still something your character can do.  
   Prestige Class (=Rank+2): This modifier is used if you have specialized in something.  Not for starting characters.

Choose a Class:  Warrior, Expert, or Adept.
   Warriors attack and defend with weapons and armor.
   Experts use light armor and light weapons, and use skills.
   Adepts use magic.

When you make an action, you add a stat and one of your Rank modifiers, roll a d20, and try to beat a Target number set by the GM.   GMs treat NPCs like PCs that always roll 10.

In combat, every turn you can make 1 roll and move.  If you take as many hits as your STR, you fall unconscious.

If your character learns from his experiences and improves his abilities, your Rank can increase.  If your character learns things outside of his class, the GM may let him change that class (eg. from Warrior to Gladiator).  If your character really wants to specialize in something, talk to your GM about a Prestige Class.  Usually you have to skip gaining Rank to gain a Prestige Class, and a Prestige Class is more specific than a Class.




Did I miss anything?


----------



## Ry

There is a 4th Stat called WIL.

You have a Reserve equal to your Rank plus WIL.  You spend it as below.



		Code:
	

Action                             Cost
Add 1d6 to a check	            1 
Add 2d6 to a check                  2
Remove 1 hit                        1
Take an extra action on your turn   2
Cast a spell                        1


----------



## Ry

For magic, I'd use Pilsnerquest's idea with Reserve as the limiting factor:

Only Adepts can cast magic, although others can learn specific kinds of magic later on (GM's discretion).  Usually other characters only learn how to use magic cross-classed.

To cast a spell a caster must spend 1 Reserve and make a magic roll, d20 + INT + Rank.   Every 5 points of the magic roll adds 1 point of effect.  A spell must roll at least 10 or it has no effect.

1 point of effect:  
30 feet of Range, Deal a hit, 5' of radius, 30' of line, 2 rounds of duration
2 points of effect: 
Heal a hit, lower a Stat by 1, raise a Stat by 1.

If you don't use Reserve, just make the limit "Up to INT+Rank times per day"


----------



## kensanata

I'm happy with M20. Perhaps the uµ20 people should go and start a new thread?  Today we played our third M20 session. The Fighter-2 samurai struck down many a bandit with a single blow, and finished the rest with his second blow – masterwork katana with weapon focus +7/+2 (1d10+6). That played out nicely. The thieves successfully sneaking up on the players later that night worked out well enough, too. I was a bit unsure of how to handle one player on guard duty vs. five thives trying to sneak up on the party. I ended up rolling Sub+DEX five times vs. Sub+WILL once and found that all five sneaking rolls were higher than the one watch roll. The dice were on the bandits' side! How would you have handled it? From there, it was easy. The Thief-7 nearly kills the samurai with his first blow (the other bandits are all Thief-1), the magic users fail their spells, the next round the samurai is down and the rest of party surrenders. All end up in the bandit lair prison cells and we call it a day. Rescue & escape attempts follow on Monday, hopefully.


----------



## Pilsnerquest

A seperate ultramicrolite20 thread...boo, it's microlite, just more micro! Sounds like you ,kensanata, had a great gaming session and I would have handled the five Sub+DEX rolls for the thieves and one Sub+Will for the PC exactly that way.

As for Rank20 I like the class rank idea. I was always leary of a character of say, high dex for monk type reasons, using it for things his/her character might not normally try like picking locks etc. I have a question, when a character attempts an action in Rank20 do they add any stat bonuses? The chance for spell failure is also sound. The way I use magic spell casters are always successful to some degree (at least until the magic roll penalty catches up to them).


Pilsnerquest


----------



## jmucchiello

> ultramicrolite20



Shouldn't that just be nanolite20 or picolite20?


----------



## Ry

Pilsnerquest said:
			
		

> A seperate ultramicrolite20 thread...boo, it's microlite, just more micro!




Yeah, I'd like to keep the discussion together, at least for the people who take bits of M20 and optional rules from the macropedia to cobble together their own game.  Ultramicrolite20 and its peers are like other underlying systems that you can tack the same macropedia options onto.



			
				Pilsnerquest said:
			
		

> I have a question, when a character attempts an action in Rank20 do they add any stat bonuses? The chance for spell failure is also sound.




When you make an action, you add a stat and one of your Rank modifiers, roll a d20, and try to beat a Target number set by the GM.

(Stat + Rank + d20 vs. Target.)


----------



## greywulf

Kensanata, I'd have loved to be in that game  Sounds great, and just goes to prove it can be fun even when adventurers fail. I think you handled it perfectly on all counts. Good work!

The more I think of it, the more I'm all for keeping this thread together, if only because I want to see the number of posts exceed the word count in the Core Rules. It's 966 words, btw. Maybe we should plan a prize for the poster of the 966th post.

I'd like to see a post about D&D to that! Hah!

Rank20 is shaping up nicely. I dunno why, but it has the same 'clean' feel as d20 Modern, as compared to Microlite20's more rough-and-ready improv edge. Maybe it's got something to do with the (excellent) Reserve Points mechanic, or your writing style.


----------



## Ry

greywulf said:
			
		

> Rank20 is shaping up nicely. I dunno why, but it has the same 'clean' feel as d20 Modern, as compared to Microlite20's more rough-and-ready improv edge. Maybe it's got something to do with the (excellent) Reserve Points mechanic, or your writing style.





Thanks, Greywulf!  Rank20's ultralite edition is actually what I'm hoping to be running soon, although I haven't totally decided on a setting.  I will be adding a few tables of modifiers for actions, i.e.:

Attack modifiers:
Using a simple weapon: +2
Using a martial weapon: +4
Using a light weapon: -1

I may end up doing something similar for magic instead of the By5 system, but we'll build or cross that bridge when we come to the bridgeless or bridged river, respectively.


----------



## WSmith

Pilsnerquest said:
			
		

> These ultramicrolite rules are really growing on me though compatibility with SRD D20 is flying out the window.




If it's any consolation, I personally don't care if the rules deviate from the SRD completely, as in my eyes, m20 has become its own game. 

That is just me though.


----------



## Ry

WSmith said:
			
		

> If it's any consolation, I personally don't care if the rules deviate from the SRD completely, as in my eyes, m20 has become its own game.




Agreed.  Also, especially for ultralite rules, converting is trivial on the fly.  Then again, I hate statblocks that I can't keep in my head.


----------



## kensanata

For me, being able to use weapons, monsters, and spells from any ol' d20 resources with minimum fuss is the reason why M20 is the first homegrown ruleset to succeed in my group, I believe.


----------



## Ry

Greywulf, feel free to throw the Reserve rules into the macropedia if you wan't 'em.

Kensatsa, I think you can still use those weapons, monsters, and spells still convert on the fly into Rank20 ultralite.  If you're worried about stats, it's the same conversion as m20 - but instead of -1 to +4 stat modifiers, I just added 2 to make it 1 to 6.  

For SRD spells, here's a quick rule for you0:

SRD Spells:

Spells come from the SRD.  You can learn a spell of any level up to your Cross-Class modifier minus one.  You start knowing as many spells as your Rank, and each time your Rank increases you learn a new spell.  

Damage and SRD Spells:

When a spell does damage, calculate damage however the spell would (including any rules for half-damage).  If the spell does at least 1 damage, the target takes 1 hit.  11 damage or more = 2 hits, 21 damage = 3 hits, and so on.


----------



## greywulf

Now for a little silliness 

I've throw together a random creature generator for Microlite20 called critters . It's based on Chris Pound's _werd_ random word generator, with added M20 goodness thrown in.

As an aside, I highly recommend that page if you want random names, words, Cthulhoid creature names, Kung Fu movie titles, whatever. If you need it, he's got it!

I've create it as an Perl script and online cgi script  so even you non-Linux using folks can play with it too 

To use the script yourself, you'll need a quality Operating System like Linux to use it. Download it, and make it executable. To run it type

  ./critters 10 5

and you'll get 10 random monsters, max hit dice 5:

quoy : HD2 (11hp), AC14, Natural +2 (2d4+4)
teiyable : HD5 (38hp), AC16, By weapon +8 (2d2-2)
huthe : HD4 (23hp), AC17, By weapon +7 (1d10+3)
dubation : HD1 (5hp), AC15, By weapon +3 (2d8+3)
veiper : HD3 (24hp), AC16, By weapon +5 (1d6+5)
inchube : HD3 (14hp), AC14, Natural +6 (1d8-3)
laniss : HD4 (28hp), AC14, By weapon +4 (2d10-2)
unove : HD4 (24hp), AC15, Natural +6 (1d12+3)
vedition : HD3 (18hp), AC15, Natural +3 (2d6-4)
wacker : HD1 (6hp), AC11, By weapon +1 (1d12+3)

The first number is the number of critters to generate, the second is the max hit dice.

What the creature looks like, what it's weapon or natural attacks are and how it behaves is entirely up to you - consider it an inspiration tool for those times when you want something not in any Monster Manual or the SRD.

A few examples from the random goodies above.........

The veiper is a small, fast snake-like humanoid which attacks with a curved shortsword while tasting the air in their tongues. 

Wackers are ogre children trained to raise the alarm if non-ogres approach their cave. They carry a drum and a huge hammer which is devastating in combat.

Inchube (pronounced inc'hoo'bey) are water spirits found in fast flowing icy streams. They dance along the snow at the edge of the stream to lure travellers to their deaths.

The code took about 10 minutes to put together so it's rough around the edges, but it works! I'll prettify it up another day.

Enjoy.


----------



## Ry

greywulf said:
			
		

> quoy : HD2 (11hp), AC14, Natural +2 (2d4+4)
> teiyable : HD5 (38hp), AC16, By weapon +8 (2d2-2)
> huthe : HD4 (23hp), AC17, By weapon +7 (1d10+3)
> dubation : HD1 (5hp), AC15, By weapon +3 (2d8+3)
> veiper : HD3 (24hp), AC16, By weapon +5 (1d6+5)
> inchube : HD3 (14hp), AC14, Natural +6 (1d8-3)
> laniss : HD4 (28hp), AC14, By weapon +4 (2d10-2)
> unove : HD4 (24hp), AC15, Natural +6 (1d12+3)
> vedition : HD3 (18hp), AC15, Natural +3 (2d6-4)
> wacker : HD1 (6hp), AC11, By weapon +1 (1d12+3)
> 
> The first number is the number of critters to generate, the second is the max hit dice.
> 
> What the creature looks like, what it's weapon or natural attacks are and how it behaves is entirely up to you - consider it an inspiration tool for those times when you want something not in any Monster Manual or the SRD.
> 
> A few examples from the random goodies above.........
> 
> The veiper is a small, fast snake-like humanoid which attacks with a curved shortsword while tasting the air in their tongues.
> 
> Wackers are ogre children trained to raise the alarm if non-ogres approach their cave. They carry a drum and a huge hammer which is devastating in combat.
> 
> Inchube (pronounced inc'hoo'bey) are water spirits found in fast flowing icy streams. They dance along the snow at the edge of the stream to lure travellers to their deaths.
> 
> The code took about 10 minutes to put together so it's rough around the edges, but it works! I'll prettify it up another day.
> 
> Enjoy.





I've got a random monster fluff generator:

quoy : HD2 (11hp), AC14, Natural +2 (2d4+4)

The quoy is an animated cypress tree that launches splinters at its foes

teiyable : HD5 (38hp), AC16, By weapon +8 (2d2-2)

The teyable is a cousin of the shambling mound that controls brambles and weeds to constrict its opponents

huthe : HD4 (23hp), AC17, By weapon +7 (1d10+3)

Huthe are a swarm of wasps that take a vaguely humanoid shape.  Their origins are a mystery, but they tend to attack those who carry precious gems most violently.  

dubation : HD1 (5hp), AC15, By weapon +3 (2d8+3)

Dubations are water-loving sparrowlike creatures that can be identified by their bewhiskered facial plumage.  They are much tougher and more territorial than normal sparrows, however, and interact like a pack of wolves when dealing with threats.

laniss : HD4 (28hp), AC14, By weapon +4 (2d10-2)

Laniss are giant harvester spiders, and are largely docile creatures often harnessed as mounts by goblins.

unove : HD4 (24hp), AC15, Natural +6 (1d12+3)

Unoves are bone-white, spine-covered drakes with a pair of neck frills that join to one in the centre of the back.

vedition : HD3 (18hp), AC15, Natural +3 (2d6-4)

Veditions are a race of poisonous, blotchy humanoids that dwell in city sewers.  They attack with their long fingernail-like claws, which naturally secrete their poison.


----------



## greywulf

There's nothing like a good bit of monster fluff to make me smile 

Good stuff there Ry - proof positive that the Critter Generator works! It makes up the stats, so you can invent the cool stuff. Nice.

Darnitall, I'm going to use some of these in my next M20 adventure, just because.

C'mon guys! Generate some more, and give us unique critters 

Ry, I'm going to snarf your post and stick it in the Macropedia, ok?

UPDATE: Critters are alive and in the Macropedia! Bwah hahahahahaha. Etc.


----------



## Cymew

I just re-read M20 core rules.

Am I dense, or are the magic attack bonus actually used for anything else but turning undead?


----------



## greywulf

It's used for any spells that require a roll to make the attack and it's not ranged or melee. Or psionics stuff. Or magical battles between Magi where they toss energy at each other. 

Or anything else that involves shouting loud words while waving your arms to scare the natives 

Hope that helps.


----------



## Cymew

Not used that often, then?

I think I'm going to take a look at the spell list and see if it's really needed.

Thanks!


----------



## Pilsnerquest

> If it's any consolation, I personally don't care if the rules deviate from the SRD completely, as in my eyes, m20 has become its own game.




It is a consolation. Everyday I question why I'm trying to start games outside of the D&D D20 juggeranaut.



> C'mon guys! Generate some more, and give us unique critters




Okay, got time for three, then it's time to get back to serious game stuff.

jiet : HD1 (4hp), AC15, Natural +2 (2d2-2)

Jiet are spirits who haunt a person's dreams for three straight nights. If the person fails MIND checks, DC 15, for each of the three consecutive nights the spirit assumes a physical body drawing half the persons stats to its new body. The person, who can sense the spirit, must hunt it down and destroy it to make their body whole again.

gow : HD2 (9hp), AC12, Natural +3 (2d6+3)

Gows are seemingly harmless looking livestock oddly found out in remote regions. However, these animals are dangerous and will slowly close in on unsuspecting persons while releasing a soundless and incapacitating gas that renders a person nauseated, DC 8 +1 for each additional Gow. The livestock will then attempt to eat the person. It is rumored that a tipped Gow cannot release the noxious gas.

brir : HD3 (18hp), AC16, Natural +6 (1d10-2)

Brir are fat humanoids who will attempt to grapple a person as their attack. On the next round, if still able to hold the grapple, they will seemingly deflate themselves revealing a gaunt body that protrudes long thin quills (Natural +6 (1d10-2)). They will use this natural quill attack until the person is dead or the grapple is broken at which time the Brir's body will bloat again disguising the quills.



Pilsnerquest


----------



## Pilsnerquest

I







> just re-read M20 core rules.
> 
> Am I dense, or are the magic attack bonus actually used for anything else but turning undead?




I'm glad someone else mentioned this. I was blaffled by the magic attack bonus and finally just altered my rules to state it was used for physical spell attacks (since the mage is using his mind to control the magic arrow, missile, etc., not his dexterity) and the target uses their AC for defense. However, for mind attacks by a mage (fear, mirror image, etc.) we do use it, but, the target uses a d20+Level+Mind bonus as their defense to see through or overcome the effect.

It would be nice to have a clean fix for all that.


Pilsnerquest


----------



## greywulf

New critters duely added to the Critter Collection. The first person to plausibly put gows into an adventure wins a single blank sheet of paper, ready to be turned into an M20 pocketmod 

You're right about Magical Attack bonus. It needs clarifying when it should be used (if at all). I'll give it some thought. The Magi in our groups seems to use it a lot, and I just nod and let him roll. I'll ask him.

Critter Collection. I like that title. Hmmmmm......


----------



## Ry

Love the gow, btw.  Love it.


----------



## Ry

Although I think the Dubation's going to have to do 1d6 damage, otherwise they're just wayyyy to dangerous to be sparrowlike.


----------



## Ry

Hey greywulf, is there room in the macropedia for some tables of modifiers?  They're sort of the meat and potatoes for when you want your players to be able to have tactical options but your players need to see some numbers to really think those through.

The following modifiers can be used in a variety of situations:

i.e.:  
Surprise          +4
Higher Ground   +1
Charging mount +2
Better footing   +1

Multiple opponents (disorganized):
2                +2
5                +4
10              +6
25               +8
50               +10

Multiple opponents (organized):
2                 +2
3                 +3
4                 +4
5                 +5
7                 +7
10               +10


----------



## Ry

Also, for microlite games: 

Deal an extra hit: -5


----------



## greywulf

You wish is my command. Don't try to think about that sentence in D&D terms, it'll make your brain hurt.

I've added a page for TacticalModifiers to the Macropedia and dropped them in. 

Anyone, feel free to hit this "Edit this page" link at the bottom of the page and add your own too. Same for any page up there. Add content! Change stuff! Improve things! I won't mind at all, really and honest


----------



## kensanata

Hm, I think I made a mistake, then. When my magic user wanted to "cause fear" (which I decided to treat like a sleep spell) when attacked, I made him roll against DC 10 + spell level in order to cast the spell. Instead, I should have let the spell succeed, and have each rogue roll against DC 10 + spell level to resist... Argh!


----------



## Odimax

Hey guys,

I'm not sure if this is the place to post this, but...

I'm checking out your Microlite 20 game, and it looks really cool.  I love your implementation of races and classes.


One thing I'd like to see:

Small spell lists for both divine and arcane magic, featuring spells that have smaller write-ups and quicker and easier to use.  

Ideally, I'd like to be able to play the whole game with just the 2-page core rules, and another page with spells on it.  That probably wasn't really your goal with the game, but it's just something I'd like to see.


I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so I apologize if I'm missing some stuff.

Anyway, just wanted to drop you a line and let you know I appreciate your work on Microlite 20, while giving you some feedback.  I'm not sure if I will ever actually play a game with this system, but I'm definitely intrigued by it.  I like the old school fantasy feel it has.  

Edit: Oh, wow!  I just found the spell list on your site.  Is that meant to be the full write ups for the spells?


----------



## greywulf

Think I speak for all of us when I say thanks for the praise!

We're kinda poud of Microlite20 (and it's little brother, ultramicrolite20) in all it's diminutive beauty. Pocketmods are the future, you know.

When it comes to spells, either use the Spell Lists as provided on the downloads page, use the SRD, your own PHB or spells from anything else you have to hand. The spells lists on the site list the SRD spells that are of most use in a rules-lite system, but no one is going to hit you over the head if you use different ones. Least of all me 

I'm going to start converting WikiDungeons over to Microlite20 soon, and will be calling for playtesters and adventure writers. Give me a few weeks though as I've also a huge website to build and that's likely to get in the way of funstuff for a while. Consider this a heads-up.

And I still want more Critters !

UPDATE:  I've added more Critters:

*maxiff*
HD10 (84hp), AC23, Natural +12 (2d6+5)

A very, very large mastiff. Very large. It’s head is three times the size of yours, and it’s jaw could rest on your head while standing. Bred by giants as guard dogs, but sometimes found in the wild where pools of their saliva are sometimes mistaken for large puddles. Their breath smells awful.

*tepeing*
HD1 (7hp), AC11, By weapon +3 (1d10+2)

A thin organge skinned humanoid barbarian race from the outer planes. They wield greatswords and wear still-living furs of some unknown creature that growl and snap at foes in combat.

*thozzive*
HD8 (52hp), AC22, Natural +9 (2d4+4)

Thozzives are the equivalent of giant snails from the elemental plane of Earth. They move slowly though soil leaving only their slime in passing. This eventually becomes veins of silver lacing the rock. Dwarves have been known to breed thozzives to re-seed silver mines with some success. They attack rarely, by sliding over their opponents with their rock-encrusted bodies.

*lownment*
HD1 (6hp), AC12, By weapon +1 (1d4+5)

A living lawn ornament. They look much like pottery garden gnomes and attack with their little fishing rods and garden implements. They are constructs originally given life by now forgotten magic, and multiply by an unknown method on nights when the sky is clear. A single lownment can become hundreds in a matter of days. Lownments are hated by real Gnomes who try to smash them into little pieces on sight.


----------



## Wormwood

m20 (and all it's derivations, alterations, and iterations) is quickly becoming my favorite game system.

I positively _devoured_ this thread, and I made a special place in my /GAMES folder for such received wisdom as RANK20 and Sadrik's Equipment Rules. 

Thanks guys, for doing the work I've been too busy (and frankly, too lazy) to undertake myself, and for breaking me out of my gaming doldrums. 

Until then,
Make Mine Micro!


----------



## Ry

*Rank20: Ultralite*

You have 3 stats: STR, DEX and INT. Stats range from 1-6.
You have a Rank. Characters start with a Rank of 4, and have three Rank modifiers:
Class (=Rank): This modifier is used when the action you take is something your class is good at.
Cross-Class (=Rank/2): This modifier is used when the action is outside your class but still something your character can do.
Prestige Class (=Rank+2): This modifier is used if you have specialized in something. Not for starting characters.

Choose a Class: Warrior, Expert, or Adept.
Warriors attack and defend with weapons and armor.
Experts use light armor and light weapons, and use skills.
Adepts use magic.

When you make an action, you add a stat and one of your Rank modifiers, roll a d20, and try to beat a Target number set by the GM. GMs treat NPCs like PCs that always roll 10.

In combat, every turn you can make 1 roll and move.  If you take as many hits as your STR, you fall unconscious.  See the Tactical Tables to get some ideas for what you can do in combat.

If your character learns from his experiences and improves his abilities, your Rank can increase. If your character learns things outside of his class, the GM may let him change that class (eg. from Warrior to Gladiator). If your character really wants to specialize in something, talk to your GM about a Prestige Class. Usually you have to skip gaining Rank to gain a Prestige Class, and a Prestige Class is more specific than a Class.

*Magic*

Only Adepts can use magic, although others can learn specific kinds of magic later on (GM's discretion). Usually other characters only learn how to use magic cross-classed.

A caster can cast a spell a number of times per day equal to the Rank modifier they use for casting.  So a Rank 4 Adept can cast 4 spells per day.  To cast a spell, the caster rolls d20 + INT + Rank Modifier.  The basic spell does 1 hit to a target that is close by.  More powerful spells are harder to cast - see the Tactical Tables for ideas for other things you can do with magic.


*Rank20: Ultralite Tactical Tables*

The following modifiers can be used in a variety of situations:



		Code:
	

Deal an extra hit -4

[U]Attacking with Gear[/U]
Simple           +2
Martial          +4
Light            -1
Masterwork       +2
Magical          +2





		Code:
	

[U]Defending with Gear[/U]
Shield           +1
Light Armor      +1
Heavy Armor      +3
Masterwork       +2
Magical          +2





		Code:
	

[U]Situations[/U]
Surprise          +4
Higher Ground     +1
Charging mount    +2
Better footing    +1




		Code:
	

[U]Disorganized opponents[/U]
# of opponents    Penalty to you
2                     -2
5                     -4
10                    -6
25                    -8
50                    -10




		Code:
	

[U]Organized Opponents[/U]
# of opponents    Penalty to you
2                     -2
3                     -3
4                     -4
5                     -5
7                     -7
10                    -10




		Code:
	

[U]Range[/U]
Range            Penalty
Past  30 feet        -2
Past  60 feet        -4
Past  90 feet        -6
Past 120 feet        -8
Past 150 feet        -10




		Code:
	

[U]Magic-Specific[/U]
Do not deal a hit                 +2
Raise/lower a stat by 1*          -2
Per 2 rounds of duration          -5
Heal a hit                        -4
Per 30 ft of line area of effect  -2
Per 5 ft of radius area of effect -2
Per 15 ft of cone area of effect  -2

*Spell must have a duration

If the GM determines a spell must have a duration (i.e. a buff spell), the duration modifier is -2 instead of -5.



*Optional Rule 1: Reserve*

There is a 4th Stat called WIL.

You have a Reserve equal to your Rank plus WIL.  You spend it as below.



		Code:
	

Action                             Cost
Add 1d6 to a check	            1 
Add 2d6 to a check                  2
Remove 1 hit                        1
Take an extra action on your turn   2
Cast a spell                        1

If you use Reserve, spells are limited by use of Reserve, not Rank.


----------



## Ry

*Optional Rule 2: Character Balancing*
(This example assumes you are using Reserve and the WIL stat) 

When you create a character, roll 1d6 for each stat.  Then total up the stats, and compare with the other players.  The character with the highest total is Rank 4.  For every 4 points below that character, other characters get an extra Rank.  For example, if Axan is 4,5,4,6 (total 19) but his friend Dolmar is 2,2,3,3 (total 10), Dolmar starts at Rank 6 instead of Rank 4.

(If you aren't using the WIL stat, for every 3 points below the highest character add a Rank).


----------



## Pilsnerquest

> Situations
> Surprise          +4
> Higher Ground     +1
> Charging mount    +2
> Better footing    +1




Like this table, short snd sweet. How about something for a prone character or opponent.


Pilsnerquest


----------



## Ry

*Optional Rule 3: Pure Stat actions*

Sometimes an action depends a great deal on a Stat, but doesn't really involve a character's learned skills.  In that case, instead of adding a Stat and a Rank modifier, just add a Stat twice.  So a Pure STR action is 
STR+STR+d20 vs. Target.


----------



## Ry

Pilsnerquest said:
			
		

> Like this table, short snd sweet. How about something for a prone character or opponent.




Well, since PRATD (players roll all the dice) in Rank20, and NPCs just roll 10 you can do:



		Code:
	

Prone   -4


For m20, you can say this covers both attacking and defending.  Whoever's prone gets the penalty.


----------



## greywulf

I'm getting lazy in my old age. Anyone care to add these to the Tactical Modifiers page for me?

Ta!


----------



## Ry

Oh, forgot to mention: The reason I re-posted is because I changed the magic system.  LMKWYT IYCTDS


----------



## Ry

*Optional Rule 4: Named Cross-Class*

Normally, Cross-class covers whatever Class doesn't.  To make your character more defined, consider naming your character's "Cross-class."  This is kind of what your character would be if he wasn't an adventurer.  So one person's cross-class might be Fisherman, Farmer, Sailor, or Scribner.


----------



## eyebeams

rycanada said:
			
		

> GMs treat NPCs like PCs that always roll 10.




This might be a problem, as in some situations it makes NPCs more powerful than PCs. For example, if an NPC's 10+bonus hits a PC, he *always* hits that PC, while in the same situation, a PC can miss. If you roll instead of having a set AC, you have the opposite problem, where NPC armor is more reliable.

If you give characters the ability to take 10, there must generally be symmetry between participants. That's why options like "players roll all dice" end up with the same number of dice rolls, but distribute them to different people/tasks.


----------



## Ry

Ah, but in Rank20 the PCs roll a defense action, while the NPC takes 10 on an attack action.  AC isn't part of Rank20 (although it's still in m20).

So it's PC's roll vs. NPC's 10, no matter what.  Taking 10 is not part of Rank20's core rules - and it won't be an option, either.

PCs win ties, though, so I admit that PCs have an edge in both attack and defense situations.


----------



## kensanata

*Magic Attack Bonus and Spell List*



			
				Odimax said:
			
		

> Oh, wow!  I just found the spell list on your site.  Is that meant to be the full write ups for the spells?




Well, I think most people use the full spell list from the PHB if their players want it. If the players or DM are willing to play à la M20, then the smaller list will be enough. Just fudge the rest.

In my particular game, players can pick any ol' magic system they like as long as it imposes some sort of limits, and I will use the small list of spells you found to estimate what spell level the player's spell is going to be, or how many creatures will be affected. It's an excellent reality-check tool.

As for the magic attack bonus, I think I will go with Pilsnerquest's idea:



			
				Pilsnerquest said:
			
		

> I was blaffled by the magic attack bonus and finally just altered my rules to state it was used for physical spell attacks (since the mage is using his mind to control the magic arrow, missile, etc., not his dexterity) and the target uses their AC for defense. However, for mind attacks by a mage (fear, mirror image, etc.) we do use it, but, the target uses a d20+Level+Mind bonus as their defense to see through or overcome the effect.




This will enable mages to focus on their MIND stat. No more penalties for low STR or DEX if they're trying to touch their victims or trying to aim that ray.

Thus:


1d20 + Magic Attack Bonus ≥ enemy AC for physical effects (touch, aim ray, throw balls)
1d20 + Magic Attack Bonus vs. 1d20 + Level + MIND bonus as a saving throw for mental stuff, if appropriate at all (fear, sleep, charm, illusion)

This differs from standard D&D a bit: The above would mean no saving for half damage against fireballs. If you're hit you're hit and it will hurt. I actually think this makes more sense.

I also think that not all enemies should be allowed an automatic saving throw. Illusions will always be believed, unless there's a good reason to disbelieve (lack of sound, a wall where there used to be an aisle), charms will always succeed until the victim is forced to do something out of character, and so on.

What do you think?

As the semi-official mantainer of the "Core Rules Revised" page on the Macropedia, I really want to update and improve the rules.


----------



## eyebeams

rycanada said:
			
		

> Ah, but in Rank20 the PCs roll a defense action, while the NPC takes 10 on an attack action.  AC isn't part of Rank20 (although it's still in m20).
> 
> So it's PC's roll vs. NPC's 10, no matter what.  Taking 10 is not part of Rank20's core rules - and it won't be an option, either.
> 
> PCs win ties, though, so I admit that PCs have an edge in both attack and defense situations.




I don't mean "take 10" in the sense of the formal rule. I mean that balance will skew if one group of characters (NPCs) is assumed to get a 10 and another isn't. It doesn't really matter where you assign that 10 -- you'll have scenarios arise where it skews resolution. 

For example, if the PC has an attack bonus of +5 and the NPC has a defense bonus of +15, the PC only hits the NPC on a natural 20 (the NPCs roll of 10 gives him a defense of 25), while of the NPC rolled defense like a PC the PC's chance of hitting actually increases, since it is possible that the NPC might roll as low as 16. Meanwhile, assuming natural 20 always hits, the PC's chance of hitting never gets *worse* than 5%, even iof the NPC was given a roll and got a 20 (for a total 35).

In this scenario, even though you might think just using 10 would be fine, as you can see, it actually has a significant effect, as 20% of the NPC's possible defense roll results (1-4 on 1d20) could at least double the PC's chance to hit.

Remember: Don't fall for the trap that an average result is equivalent to a random roll. There's a reason why Take 10 works the way it does in the SRD. You need to have symmetry on random results unless you're specifically planning to alter the chances for characters. You'll note that D&D's suggestions for loading all dice rolls onto players or DMs never actually gets *rid of* a dice rolling procedure. Instead it just reverses the onus of a static DC from attack roll to AC, or from the player to the challenge.


----------



## Ry

I'm not falling for a trap.  Take a look at how AC works in D&D and you'll figure it out.  One side rolls, the other side doesn't - they treat it as 10 (or thereabouts, who wins ties notwithstanding).  I just made it that the rolling is always on the PC's side.


----------



## greywulf

Kensanata, I was thinking along those lines last night too. Can you write that up in the Core Rules Revised, please. Sounds good to me.

Rycanada, what you're suggesting is (in effect) that the DC for the defense roll against hits from an NPC = 10+the attack bonus. Is that right? If so, that sounds good in a defense roll based system like Rank20. As a DM, I like rolling critter's attacks so it wouldn't work for me, but I can certainly see the appeal for games where you want to put the onus on the players to roll as much as possible. That would work for solo gaming too.


----------



## Wormwood

greywulf said:
			
		

> Rycanada, what you're suggesting is (in effect) that the DC for the defense roll against hits from an NPC = 10+the attack bonus. Is that right? If so, that sounds good in a defense roll based system like Rank20. As a DM, I like rolling critter's attacks so it wouldn't work for me, but I can certainly see the appeal for games where you want to put the onus on the players to roll as much as possible. That would work for solo gaming too.




A very similar mechanic is used in Cinematic Unisystem (Buffy, Angel, etc), and I've had nothing but success running that system.

My group was burned out on d20 for a year now, moving to 'lighter' systems like Buffy. Innovations like yours will allow me to make use of my *extensive* collection of d20 adventures and settings, while maintaining the 'rules lite' feel that my group now demands. 

I am very eager to test out my m20/Rank20/sadrik20(?) hybrid this week. If all goes well, I'll post a wrap-up.

Thanks guys.


----------



## Ry

greywulf said:
			
		

> Rycanada, what you're suggesting is (in effect) that the DC for the defense roll against hits from an NPC = 10+the attack bonus. Is that right?




Exactly - the Players Roll All The Dice in Rank20.  Give it a try sometime - when I first expunged dice from the GM's hands I really let loose in terms of the game I ran.  That was when I started spending the entire session on my feet describing stuff, because I only needed a page or two of info to keep stats straight.  In a big way, Rank20 is just taking my venerable homebrew rules-light system and putting it out in d20-friendly terms.


----------



## kensanata

Done!



			
				Macropedia said:
			
		

> If enemies try to avoid a spell (touch, rays, balls of fire), add the magic attack bonus to a d20 roll. If equal or higher than your opponent’s AC, it’s a hit. If enemies have reason to resist spells affecting their mind (faulty illusions, act out-of character while charmed, sleep while charging into battle), 1d20 + magic attack bonus must be higher than 1d20 + level + MIND bonus of the opponent for the spell to take effect. If none of the above, spells always succeed.




Perhaps too wordy?


----------



## greywulf

Not too wordy, but perhaps a tad confusing 

How about something like:

"Use Magical Attack as the "to Hit" roll for any spell that directly targets a foe. For spells which manifest physical damage (eg, lightning bolt) this must exceed AC to hit. Otherwise the DC = 10+opponent's MIND bonus+level. If the target is willing the spell automatically succeeds and there is no need to roll Magical Attack."

Does that work?


----------



## eyebeams

rycanada said:
			
		

> I'm not falling for a trap.  Take a look at how AC works in D&D and you'll figure it out.  One side rolls, the other side doesn't - they treat it as 10 (or thereabouts, who wins ties notwithstanding).  I just made it that the rolling is always on the PC's side.




As I was saying, though, it doesn't matter if *both* sides apply equivalent randomness to a task. In other words if you have 1d20+bonuses PC attack vs. 10+bonuses NPC defense that's fine, as long as the NPC doesn't also have a 10 attack +bonuses attack vs. PC's 1d20+bonus defense, which skews what bonuses do with PCs compared to NPCs. It doesn't really matter whether it's for attacking or defending. It's the disparity between random and set results that skews the probabilities. At the high ranges for NPC bonuses compared to PC bonuses the differences can be pretty dramatic.

For example: A PC and NPC both attack another NPC. The NPC's defense is 20; the attackers both have +10 bonuses. The attacking NPC always hits. The PC has a 50% chance of hitting.

Next turn, the NPC who was attacked (who has multiple attacks for some reason) strikes the PC and NPC allies. The attacking NPC has a +9 attack bonus. He always misses the defending NPC, who has a static Defense of 20 (with a +10 bonus), but has a 45% chance of hitting the PC, who also has a +10 bonus.

Therefore, the PC is weaker *in fact*, even if giving NPCs a 10 superficially looks OK. His NPC partner always hits and can never be hit by the enemy.


----------



## Ry

Obviously NPC vs. NPC = GM's discretion.  Roll if you want.


----------



## Pilsnerquest

Here's a link to some rules based off of UltraMicrolite20 and a bit of Simple20 called Realms of Renown.

Realms of Renown Guidelines 

The rules are almost 2 pages long, the Appendix almost another 2 and the notes on some of the reasons and decisions on game mechanics 1 more page. 

I'm especially interested in opinions on how this looks as a class-less and level-less game.

"The Realms of Renown, rules that let a person create a character with near limitless possibilities and GM’s to concentrate on weaving a story around these characters. You will have hours of heroic adventuring and not hours of referencing rules about grappling on a hill during a light rain."

Pilsnerquest


----------



## greywulf

I like your classless concept a lot, especially the table of "class" names. Great idea!

I suspect a magic-user in this system will need to work out his spells in advance otherwise the options for rolling 5 above, etc, will get mighty complex 

Another one for me to bookmark for when I need to work on a magic system for uM20, methinks.


----------



## Cymew

greywulf said:
			
		

> Not too wordy, but perhaps a tad confusing
> 
> How about something like:
> 
> "Use Magical Attack as the "to Hit" roll for any spell that directly targets a foe. For spells which manifest physical damage (eg, lightning bolt) this must exceed AC to hit. Otherwise the DC = 10+opponent's MIND bonus+level. If the target is willing the spell automatically succeeds and there is no need to roll Magical Attack."
> 
> Does that work?




Sounds good to me.

Though, since I mainly find M20 to be an interesting but lightweight replacement for old school D&D, I'd prefer to keep the old "save for half damage" effect somehow. Maybe I'll just ditch the magic bonus, since that will keep the effect, and it uses the fewest words to achieve that effect.

I still haven't managed to scrape together some players for ToEE.


----------



## Mark CMG

Now that we are into a new year, drop me a line, greywulf, when you think you are at a point that you'd like more involvement from me.  I've got a few things on my plate but we will shuffle things around as we can.  Thanks!


----------



## Pilsnerquest

Thanks for taking a look at the Realms of Renown guidelines.




> I suspect a magic-user in this system will need to work out his spells in advance otherwise the options for rolling 5 above, etc, will get mighty complex




Could you give me an idea of what caused your concern with the 5 points for for 1 point of effect that gave you most problems. I would like to iron-out any grey areas the magic rules leave, which I am hoping more examples may just possibly help clarify. 

If it helps throw out a few game type examples and I will apply the magic rules to them. This may help me to clarify or lengthen the written explanation I have.

Thanks again,

Pilsnerquest


----------



## greywulf

Mark, I'm in your hands and ready when you are 

Pilsnerquest, I'm thinking about spells where there's more than one variable. Taking your example of the ball of fire - it's got area of effect, damage, range and possibly duration if you want the magical flames to continue beyond a round. 

A wise magic user would need a table of standard spell effects so he can just pick what happens with one point of effect, two, three, etc. otherwise combat is going to grind to a halt while we decides how to juggle the points. Of course, he can cast anything on the fly, but a prepared list would speed things up most of the time.

Also, I'd suggest clarifying what happens to any unstated variable. So if a magic user casts ball of fire and only gets a 6, it'll do damage 1, range touch, area of effect none, duration instant. It he rolls over 10, he could add an extra point of damage, increase the range to 1, make it area effect 1 or duration 1 round. 

It's not clear what happens if he rolls under 5 - does the spell fail due to insufficient power?

Thinking about it, this system would also work well if you drop in this rule we've been playing with for M20:

If a d20 rolls a natural twenty, add and roll again. If further natural twenties are rolled, continue adding and rolling. 

That way a mage with MIND bonus +3 could roll 3+20+16 = 39 for 7 points of effect. Which is nice. 

Hope that helps


----------



## kensanata

@Greywulf: I'll try to make it shorter. 



			
				Greywulf said:
			
		

> Otherwise the DC = 10+opponent's MIND bonus+level.




In my proposal I used 1d20 + MIND bonus + level; comparing the two you're basically suggesting "taking 10" – a system that will make magic more calculable. Did you do this on purpose? With my system, it is possible to enchant higher level monsters with a bit of luck, and if the players are on the receiving end, they feel like they're rolling a saving throw. That is, if you propose to roll 1d20 + Magic Attack Bonus vs. DC 10 + MIND Bonus + Level, and the roll succeeds, will you grant the opponent a saving throw (essentially again applying his MIND Bonus and Level)?


----------



## jezter6

Just popping in. I've followed bits of this from day 1 and left it for a while. Has anyone run this using modern rules? Are there any other conversions necessary? What about running low magic - a la Grim Tales, Conan, real world modern?

I like the basic rules, with added (but completely optional) extended rules. I think once you add all those extended rules pages up it'll be just as big as d20 though.


----------



## greywulf

kensanata said:
			
		

> In my proposal I used 1d20 + MIND bonus + level; comparing the two you're basically suggesting "taking 10" – a system that will make magic more calculable. Did you do this on purpose?




The only reason I put it at 10, rather than d20, was to make it faster to run in-game. One less dice to roll, that's all. Either works for me though. I bow to your decision 

Jezter, I've played the M20 modern rules and love then just as they are. I wouldn't change a single thing.

I must confess that when we play M20 of any kind we play with just the Core Rules and make the rest of the stuff up on the fly. If someone wants to play a winged harpy using a machine gun (it hasn't happened yet. But it could), we'll just make up the rules for flying (probalby just: "ok. You can fly") and machine gun damage, and run with it.

The Macropedia is little more than a toolbox. Pick stuff out that you like, ignore the rest. Just as a carpenter wouldn't try to use every single tool he's got in one go, it's a very bad idea to dump everything into the game. Pick one rule out, two at most, and use them. But no more.

If you tried to put everything in you'll end up needing three entire books just for the rules, and countless supplements too, all of which will add further complexity and contradictions. In other words, one great big unholy mess - which pretty much sums up a lot of D&D games I've seen where people do just that 

Microlite20 is about using the minimum rules possible. Every game is different though, so what might be minimum for one group might not suit another. Hence the reasons for collating the House Rules into the Macropedia to give folks inspiration how to play the game.

That's the theory, anyway!


----------



## kensanata

@Greywulf: I'd suggest the following.



> Unopposed spells always succeed. To hit evading enemies, add the magic attack bonus to a d20 roll. If equal or higher than your opponent's AC, it’s a hit. To enchanting unwilling opponents, 1d20 + magic attack bonus must be higher than 1d20 + level + MIND bonus of the opponent.




I thought it was important to add that not all spells are automatically opposed. The reason being that in my first few sessions, the magic users tried to cast several spells and often failed to roll the 11 or 12 required. This is frustrating, because failed spells still cost HP. I'd therefore rule that an enchanting dance by a beautiful woman in front of men drinking and wanting to be entertained does not grant these men a saving throw: They want to be enchanted! The only limit will be the number of creatures or HD the witch can enchant.

The same is true for casting sleep on guards late at night. Theses guys want to sleep anyway!

And of course I'm hoping that the verbs "to hit" and "enchant" make it obvious in which situation one or the other will be applied. And I hope that the text doesn't mislead some DMs to apply both tests...


----------



## Ry

I'm working on expanding the tables for the Rank20 magic system (easily ported to m20).  Spells are constructed from a few tables (Range, duration, area of effect, effect).

*Optional Rule 5:*

PCs can Take 5 on any roll.  If a magic user takes 5 they do not need to spend a reserve point to cast their spell.  Instead, roll 1d6.  On a 1, the caster loses a reserve point.  Otherwise the spell is "free".


----------



## Pilsnerquest

> Hope that helps




Absolutely, thanks for breaking down the areas you found questionable. I can definitely see your points.



> Also, I'd suggest clarifying what happens to any unstated variable. So if a magic user casts ball of fire and only gets a 6, it'll do damage 1, range touch, area of effect none, duration instant. It he rolls over 10, he could add an extra point of damage, increase the range to 1, make it area effect 1 or duration 1 round.




I like how this looks, clean and simple explanation on what to do with a higher roll. Are you using the 4x5 magic rules in your games? If you do, or have, how did you work area of effect when dealing with fireballs vs., say, color spray?

That additional d20 roll on a natural 20 rule would be a blast for players. 

Thanks,

Pilsnerquest


----------



## greywulf

Kensanata: Works for me 

rycanada: Take 5 eh? If I tell my players that, they'll leave the table, grab a coke, go to the bathroom, etc.  Intersting idea. I /really/ need to work on an M20 magic system. Half of me likes it's rules-free nature, but the other part of me thinks that it's been zenified too much and there needs to be a few more rules to shore it up.

Pilsnerquest: My pleasure. We've played with the 4x5 magic system (itself shamelessly stolen from FUDGE 4x5) and my players like it, a lot. It wouldn't work in a converted D&D adventure as it's just too different, but it works very well for a Name of the Rose/Ars Magica style setting. Hence the given targets DCs where it's harder to cast magic on stone than it is on leather or a person - the stone doesn't want to change 

If I were going to depart from d20, I'd use the 4x5 system as the basis of the system, without a doubt.

EDIT: realized I didn't answer your question!

In 4x5 you can't create anything - there's no "create" action - but you could cast _Augeo Navitas_ (enhance energy) on an existing flame to burst a torch that a goblin is holding, say. The torch would be DC20. If it's succeeded by 5 (or less) points, that poor goblin holding it will take 1d8 damage. 5-10, he takes 2d8 damage and the any close goblins will take 1d8. 

Succeed by 11-15 the the goblin holding the torch take 3d8, next closest 2d8, then 1d8 radiating out. Much goblin toast.

Under this system there's no equal to color spray and the like though perhaps _tempero navitas_ (control energy) could be used to create a similar effect to manipulate the light. 

Does that help?


----------



## kensanata

Maybe I should create some pages with the various Magic Systems my players are using...


----------



## jezter6

greywulf said:
			
		

> Jezter, I've played the M20 modern rules and love then just as they are. I wouldn't change a single thing.



Is there a separate macropedia entry for M20 modern rules? I didn't see anything specific about any 'modern' rules out there on the site.


----------



## greywulf

jezter6 said:
			
		

> Is there a separate macropedia entry for M20 modern rules? I didn't see anything specific about any 'modern' rules out there on the site.




It's on the downloads page as a regular print or pocketmod pdf.

There's no section in the Macropedia for M20 Modern House Rules, but if someone sent me some or added their own to the site.......... 

EDIT: And kensanata, yes please! More Magic Makes Me Merry.


----------



## jezter6

I like this idea more and more. Anyone think of ditching the multiple dice and MicroTrue 20 it up?
Heck, the game would be even better if it was so small AND only needed one d20 to play.


----------



## eyebeams

jezter6 said:
			
		

> I like this idea more and more. Anyone think of ditching the multiple dice and MicroTrue 20 it up?
> Heck, the game would be even better if it was so small AND only needed one d20 to play.




My own game, Quick20, only uses the d20. It uses the damage save mechanic, but it's a bit different from True20 to accomodate the fact that Quick20 bases the majority of its advancement on its ability scores.

Incidentally, I'd like to thank light games fans for Quick20's amazing success. I hope that people can mix and match the systems they like to make a game they'll want to stick with.


----------



## jezter6

eyebeams,
it looks like it's designed straight up for fantasy - can it do modern?


----------



## eyebeams

jezter6 said:
			
		

> eyebeams,
> it looks like it's designed straight up for fantasy - can it do modern?




It can, if you get Modern Adventures with it. As part of its bundle with Quick 20 it only costs a buck more than the core by itself. The supplement gives you modern weapons, an alternative class structure and vehicle/chase rules.


----------



## greywulf

eyebeams, Quick20 sounds great. It's on my to-buy list next paycheck day  I'm all for minimal d20 system cross-polination. When the rules are so small, it's easy to pick the best rules from all of them.

I do have a wishlist for Microlite20 House Rules that I'll plough through when I've time - unless someone else wants to do them first and see their name in the Macropedia:

- Using only a d20 like Mutants & Masterminds. I'm with you, Jezter
- Using d6s - for those times when you've only a Yahtzee set to hand
- Alien races
- More Critters!
- ultramicrolite20 diceless
- a default campaign setting and more adventures

At some point I'm going to pull together a PDF bundle of the Revised Core Rules, the Macropedia and a couple of adventures and stick it on RPGNow for a couple of dollars. Anyone with a credit in there will get a copy for free.

Mark (if you're listening), here's where Creative Mountain Games comes in, methinks, if we're thinking along the same lines.

Sound fair?


----------



## kensanata

I don't really care for more alien races, more critters, single-dice, single dice type, or diceless…  But MORE ADVENTURES – YES!! And that's what I'll do now. I've basically finished my second adventure. And I'm working on the third... Hopefully ready by next weekend.


----------



## Pilsnerquest

> - ultramicrolite20 diceless




GM - A goblin is approaching you.
PLAYER - I'll swing my axe at it.
GM - Okay, pick a number between 1-20.
PLAYER - 8!
GM - You missed.
PLAYER - 13!
GM - Missed
PLAYER - 6, no 4!
GM - Missed, and missed. Now the goblin swings at you, pick a number between 1-20.
PLAYER - 20.
GM - Hit! And it's a natural 20 too!


Pilsnerquest


----------



## Bretbo

Hey Wulf, anything I can do to add content to the Modern side of the table, just let me know.  'bout time you got a few copper pieces for this baby, heck if for no other reason than inspiring us to be creative and inspiring us all to game, well, small!  

Oh, maybe Microlite Menace Manual...hmmm.


----------



## greywulf

Bretbo said:
			
		

> Oh, maybe Microlite Menace Manual...hmmm.




Bretbo, you're on! I hereby appoint you _Microlite Menace Manual Maestro_. If you're in the mood for pulling Monsters from the Modern Srd and dropping them into a pdf, I'll gladly take it off your hands.

Pilnserquest, lol! Never trust a gamer who rolls a natural 20 you cannot see. I've played a game using a stopwatch before where the players hit stop and read the milisecond digits as a d100 roll. That's fun. 

Kensanata, adventures! Gimme adventures! I love what you're doing with your setting, and I'm eager as ever to see more. I've unlocked the Macropedia index page if you want to add more content.

I'm gaming tonight (d20 Modern) and will be running a one-shot adventure set in The Scarlet Sea. I'm thinking about making the "default" settings for M20, or at least one part of a world map.

Thoughts?


----------



## Ry

Any interest in a Rank20 Ultralite Shackled City Adventure Path conversion?  The conversion would also be ultralite (i.e., condensed).


----------



## greywulf

rycanada said:
			
		

> Any interest in a Rank20 Ultralite Shackled City Adventure Path conversion?  The conversion would also be ultralite (i.e., condensed).




I considered running Life's Bazaar, the first part of Shackled City, in Microlite20 straight from the pages of Dungeon with no conversion but decided to go with full D&D from the start as the series gets too complex later on. Devils and beholders have too many special abilities that just don't suit ultralite gaming. That was my thoughts, anyhow.

If you can pull it off, good luck to you


----------



## kensanata

Hah, *M20 to the end*! I usually just fudge spells & monster feats…

Anyway, I created Kami Magic and Rune Magic in the Macropedia; those are the systems two of my players use. The third magic user basically just uses a very small list of Necromancer spells from the PHB.

As for a default setting, Scarlet Sea is as suggestive a name as any other. And I like pirates! Before settling on my Japanesque Campaign, I considered playing a strong pirates + voodoo scenario with powerful exiled Chinese magicians arriving by ship… So I'm all in favor. 

I don't really think we need a default setting, however. Do you think it will encourage more people to write adventures? Or that it will encourage more people to write adventures that can be used by other M20 gamers? Those would be the only good reasons to pick a default setting, I think.

If, on the other hand, DMs will just be contributing what they are playing anyway, then picking a default setting will make no difference to the material contributed. Then why do it? Being the skeptic that I am, I have but myself to extrapolate from… And I need an active game before writing any material.


----------



## greywulf

kensanata said:
			
		

> I don't really think we need a default setting, however. Do you think it will encourage more people to write adventures? Or that it will encourage more people to write adventures that can be used by other M20 gamers? Those would be the only good reasons to pick a default setting, I think.




Yes, and yes.

Maybe "default setting" was the wrong choice of words. 

I'm thinking about offering something like the Keep on the Borlderlands or Threshold, a starting setting that can be used (or not) by anyone. As there's no OGL setting available (why?!), now is as good a time as any to start one. Keep it simple and vague with enough locations promising of funky ruins and towns for folks to populate and make their own (or populate using Dungeon magazine). Other companies could place their adventures there too, detail what's to the West or whatever. Heck, they could put the Microlite20 core rules in the Appendix to the adventure and make it a competely stand-alone adventure. Now, wouldn't that be cool?


----------



## Darrell

greywulf said:
			
		

> Yes, and yes.
> 
> Maybe "default setting" was the wrong choice of words.
> 
> I'm thinking about offering something like the Keep on the Borlderlands or Threshold, a starting setting that can be used (or not) by anyone. As there's no OGL setting available (why?!), now is as good a time as any to start one. Keep it simple and vague with enough locations promising of funky ruins and towns for folks to populate and make their own (or populate using Dungeon magazine). Other companies could place their adventures there too, detail what's to the West or whatever. Heck, they could put the Microlite20 core rules in the Appendix to the adventure and make it a competely stand-alone adventure. Now, wouldn't that be cool?




Actually, 'wulf, I've been working on something like this for a little while now.  A small coastal barony, basic settled areas, possible adventuring locales, a bit of history, gods, etc.; that sort of thing.  I should have it ready to go in a week or so.  I've had a little trouble converting from one map (that I'd cribbed off the 'net a good while back) to another (of my own devising...no copyright issues), and am having a bit of trouble with placing everything.  I'll post it here when I'm done.    

Regards,
Darrell King


----------



## Bretbo

greywulf said:
			
		

> Bretbo, you're on! I hereby appoint you _Microlite Menace Manual Maestro_. If you're in the mood for pulling Monsters from the Modern Srd and dropping them into a pdf, I'll gladly take it off your hands.




Heh, you got it cheif!

As for the setting idea, I'm all for it.  A little bit of extra goodness to go along with adventures is rarely a bad thing.  Of course, it can get out of hand and suddenly the simplisity of a lite system is buried under the weight of added rules, options ect.; but I don't think that is the issue here.  

Sounds like Darrell has got a possibility, look forward to seeing it.


----------



## Ry

greywulf said:
			
		

> I considered running Life's Bazaar, the first part of Shackled City, in Microlite20 straight from the pages of Dungeon with no conversion but decided to go with full D&D from the start as the series gets too complex later on. Devils and beholders have too many special abilities that just don't suit ultralite gaming. That was my thoughts, anyhow.




Yeah, I'm going to take some serious liberties when I do the conversion.  You may see creatures like a Tyrannical Eyelord.

As far as ultralite goes for spells, how would you convert damage from a spell like fireball into "hits"?  I prefer the hits mechanic because of the reserve mechanic I use, but I see the appeal of plugging in spells from D&D.


----------



## kensanata

@Darrell: My offer to draw maps of anything that you have a little textual description of still stands! (examples)

Maybe I should draw some maps first, and let people interested in writing up adventures use them? Would that work better for "you" – meaning those people that would love seeing some OGL maps available but with enough ideas of their own to write the actual adventures?

I decided to give it a try. This Coastal Hellgate Map took me 30 minutes to draw, and 20 minutes to scan, post-process and upload to Flickr. Any takers? 

If it works for you and you write up a little OGL campaign outline involving the hellgate, I can detail areas on the map for individual adventures, one piece at a time.


----------



## Ry

Sweet maps.  I like that gallery.


----------



## greywulf

Wow. I'm amazed the momentum for this is still going. You guys floor me. No, really!

Darrell, I was beginning to miss you   What you're working on sounds just what we need. If you need a hand with the maps, Kensanata is yer man. His maps are beautiful. This one  I want as a poster.

Bretbo, I await the M20M stats for a living dumpster with bated breath. Microlite20 Modern + a Microlite20 Modern Manual would be just great for litescale modern gaming. 

Litescale... I like that. Trips off the tonuge.

My brain is shifting into gears regarding a Macropedia PDF where we'll need to make it very clear what's Core Rules and what's optional candy store fare. More on that another time though.

Rycanada, take all the liberties you want (but don't get caught ). I'd love to know how this plays out - I suspect an M20 session in Cauldron would focus more on out-of-combat investigation than regular D&D as you're free from the expectations of the rules.

For a fireball I'd be inclined to scale the hits radially with the "area of effect" being how much takes full damage from the blast. So, if you put three points into damage and area of effect 1, that's 3 points of damage where it hits, 2 points 5' away, 1 point 10' away.

Make it area of effect 2 and you get 3 points of damage where it hits and 5' away, 2 at 10' and 1 at 15'. 

Oh, and make sure you don't get caught in the blast, so you'll need a decent amount in range too. Fireballs can be difficult to cast safely, just as it should be.

Kensanata, I think the Microlite20 site would benefit from an InspirationalMaps with links to maps by you and others. What do you think


----------



## kensanata

greywulf said:
			
		

> Kensanata, I think the Microlite20 site would benefit from an InspirationalMaps with links to maps by you and others. What do you think




Done!


----------



## greywulf

kensanata said:
			
		

> Done!




Fantastic  Ain't wikis grand? Especially where they're super-powered by Oddmue (shameless plug) 

InspirationalMaps are now available from the Microlite20 site, courtesy of Kensanata. If anyone else has more to add, click _Edit this page_ and copy Alex's formating.

Thanks


----------



## Darrell

kensanata said:
			
		

> @Darrell: My offer to draw maps of anything that you have a little textual description of still stands!




Thanks for the offer, kensanata, but I already have a map, and it's been colored for me by a kind soul over on the ENW Art Gallery forums (thanks, hafrogman, if you're reading).  See below for said map, _sans_ labeling.  Yours are really, exceptional, though.  I love your gallery.    

The problems I'm running into are actually reconciling the text with the new map.  I used to use one I'd cribbed from an online source and re-labeled; but I didn't feel comfortable using that one, since I didn't have permission to use it in a publication, and didn't know where I'd originally got it, so I couldn't even try to _get_ permission.

I decided instead to use a map I'd drawn several years ago, but it's a bit different, geographically, than the other...so I'm having to reconcile the new map with the older text, and I'm currently figuring some of my stuff has to be pared down.  May trouble lies in deciding _what_ to pare down.  I'll figure it out soon, and you guys will see the result as soon as I can figure it out.    

Thanks again for the offer, kensanata; I appreciate it.    

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## Pilsnerquest

> For a fireball I'd be inclined to scale the hits radially with the "area of effect" being how much takes full damage from the blast. So, if you put three points into damage and area of effect 1, that's 3 points of damage where it hits, 2 points 5' away, 1 point 10' away.
> 
> Make it area of effect 2 and you get 3 points of damage where it hits and 5' away, 2 at 10' and 1 at 15'.




I really like where this is going for ultramicrolite and rycanada's system for magic. Using the magic roll/magic attack, whatever you want to call it, and having the caster designate how the roll is divided amongst effect, duration, area of effect and range is simpy brilliant. It literally can accomodate any type of spell. I myself have allowed casters a "no charge" on range to allow anything in sight (within reason) to be targeted by the spell attack leaving points to be divided between effect, duration and area of effect. The only glitch seems to be when a caster tries to cast a spell with more than one "component" such as a fireball (with area of effect and damage) and the caster does not have enough points to distribute to both. Maybe the spell just affects a 5' area or just fizzles?

Any ideas?

Pilsnerquest


----------



## greywulf

Pilsnerquest, here's what I wrote earlier as a suggestion to solve this:



> Also, I'd suggest clarifying what happens to any unstated variable. So if a magic user casts ball of fire and only gets a 6, it'll do damage 1, range touch, area of effect none, duration instant. It he rolls over 10, he could add an extra point of damage, increase the range to 1, make it area effect 1 or duration 1 round.




All spells could potentially have damage, range, area of effect and duration. If they're unstated, then the defaults are used:

0 damage
touch range
0 area of effect
instant duration

In Microlite20 terms, each point allocated to damage would translate to 1d6 Hit Points lost. Or "damage" could be positive energy to make it a healing spell instead recovering 1d6 damage per point.

For example, an Awaken spell could be just 0 damage, range 1 (5'), 0 area of effect and instant duration. 

How's that sound?


----------



## Ry

See below.


----------



## Ry

Very close to what greywulf suggested, here's the base spell in Rank20:

You roll a magic check like any other skill check.  If your opponent resists, and your check is less than the opponent's check to resist, the spell fails.  Also, if your total check is ever less than 10, the spell fails.  When a spell fails you still lose whatever you would normally spend to cast it (Reserve, spells per day, hitpoints, etc.)

Every spell has 3 parts: Range, # of Targets, and Result.

*1.  Range:*



		Code:
	

Touch/Melee                  0
Close (30 feet)  	    -1
Short (30 yards)            -2
Medium (60 yards)           -4
Long (100 yards)            -6
Extreme (200 yards)         -8


*2.  # of Targets.  *


		Code:
	

# 	Penalty
1	+0
2	-2
5	-4
10	-6
25	-8
50	-10
100	-12


Area of Effect gets rolled into Number of Targets pretty easily, since they're similar concepts, but a caster can choose to shape it like a Cone (starting at caster), a Line (starting at caster), or a Radius (starting at a range).  

To handle situations where the "targets" aren't actual opponents, think of targets in terms of what people could do in the same amount of time.  For example, for "how much stuff can I levitate?" think of what a "target" could represent - my answer would be: "Let's use 100 pounds / target as our benchmark, since that's about as much as 1 fairly strong man could lift at the same time."  To move dirt, "how much can a man shovel per round?"

*3.  Result*

This is the effect and duration (if applicable).  I rolled these 2 together since appropriate durations seem to change so much depending on the effect.  This table can be expanded, but I've kept it short because that's the kind of exercise we're doing right now.  I'd love suggestions for very concise ways to expand this table though.



		Code:
	

[B]Result                Modifier[/B]
Harmless effect             +0
1 Hit (1d6 damage)          -2
2 hits                      -5
4 hits                     -10
Per Healing (1d6 healing)   -5
+1/-1 Stat for 10 rounds    -5

Other Effect is…	
… less severe than a hit    -2
… like a hit	            -4
… worse than a hit          -8
… crippling	           -12
... instant death          -16


*4.  Other conditions*

For d20 spell lovers, there's a flat +2 bonus to any spell that emulates a spell from a d20 rulebook.  For 4x5 magic lovers, take a +2 bonus if you use some element of the environment in your spell.  I intend to use both modifiers.


----------



## greywulf

I'm liking it more and more. Nice write-up.

Mind if I snarf (again) ?

I wanna playtest it next week for my one- (or maybe two-) shot Microlite20 Wednesday game. Tonight's d20 Modern wrapped up nicely with the world about to end. Don't ask.

So next week I'm thinking about running a post-apocalyptic game using Microlite20.

It's going to feature Giant Burrowing Beetles (Bullettes), Warp Cats (Displacer Beasts), Unmen (Orcs), Skinnies (Elves) and anything else I can rename on the fly. And some of the new Critters too. Heck, I might even throw in a gow  or two - though I suspect they will be eaten pretty quickly 

And there's going to be magic, but not like D&D spell list, formalized stuff. This is going to be raw, untamed, wild.......perfect for your magic system, in other words.

I'll write-up the magic as it's going to be run in the Macropedia so everyone can tear it apart review it impartially, ok?

And the classes are going to be Fighter, Rogue, Cleric and Mage renamed into post-apocalyptic terms. Something like Heavy, Finder, Lost Soul and Blessed, maybe. I'll think more on that later


----------



## WSmith

greywulf said:
			
		

> I do have a wishlist for Microlite20 House Rules that I'll plough through when I've time - unless someone else wants to do them first and see their name in the Macropedia:
> 
> - Using d6s - for those times when you've only a Yahtzee set to hand




I am a big Tunnels & Trolls fan, and have given the use of six-sided dice only some thought. I will let you know what I come up with.


----------



## greywulf

WSmith said:
			
		

> I am a big Tunnels & Trolls fan, and have given the use of six-sided dice only some thought. I will let you know what I come up with.




Thanks, W. I leave that in your more than capable hands 

From one fellow T&T lover to another.


----------



## Pilsnerquest

> All spells could potentially have damage, range, area of effect and duration. If they're unstated, then the defaults are used:
> 
> 0 damage
> touch range
> 0 area of effect
> instant duration
> 
> In Microlite20 terms, each point allocated to damage would translate to 1d6 Hit Points lost. Or "damage" could be positive energy to make it a healing spell instead recovering 1d6 damage per point.
> 
> For example, an Awaken spell could be just 0 damage, range 1 (5'), 0 area of effect and instant duration.
> 
> How's that sound?




It looks great for Microlite, and I would use it exactly the way you have it written out for it. What I'm using is a modified version of Ultramicrolite20, the one you checked out, using a level-less idea, where casters are only going to be able to generate a max of 5 points (minimum of 1 on a final result of 1-4) to divy amongst effect, duration, range and area of effect. I'd really like to keep everything 1 for 1, (1 point derived from the magic roll for 1 hit of damge or 1 hit removed from healing, etc. and I'd like to limit the amount of reference tables. Spending points on "range" would soak up the available magic points to spend so I've allowed casters to target their spells anywhere within sight at no point cost. 

Where problems pop up is when a caster casts, say a strength spell on a party member, needing at least 2 points to spend, 1 point on bumping the strength +1 and another 1 point for 1 round of duration, but only gets 1 point to spend from a lousy magic roll. I could use the instantaneous default and say the next swing is at +1 and then the spells gone but that would pretty much be the same as spending 1 point to have 1 round of duration. Maybe have the spell fail? Go with the instantaneous default as an easy fix?

Pilsnerquest


----------



## greywulf

I'd stay that gives them a +1 bonus to the next STR-based activity they carry out, so that could be +1 to hit and damage on their next roll, +1 to lift that boulder, etc.

It's still one round duration, but the 1 round is triggered when it's used. 

Does that make sense?

I really ought to write this up in the Macropedia now.........


----------



## Ry

Alternatively, you might allow (as I'm going to for Rank20) a caster to keep a spell going by allowing anything to have a Concentration duration.  So even on a crappy roll, the caster could keep his friends STR buffed by not making other actions on his turn.


----------



## greywulf

There you go. I've written up the Open Ended Magic System based on what's been discussed so far.

It's deviated a little from Realms of Renown, mainly because I've tried to make it accessible in both Microlite20 and ultramicrolite20, but not so much as you can't see it's heritage. 

Comments and feedback, as ever, yadda yadda yadda.......

This is going to be playtested next Wednesday.


----------



## Pilsnerquest

> I'd stay that gives them a +1 bonus to the next STR-based activity they carry out, so that could be +1 to hit and damage on their next roll, +1 to lift that boulder, etc.
> 
> It's still one round duration, but the 1 round is triggered when it's used.
> 
> Does that make sense?




Instantaneous default, yeah that makes sense. And I don't think it would be a loophole for characters to not spend a point on duration as some spells would benefit from lasting an entire round.



> Alternatively, you might allow (as I'm going to for Rank20) a caster to keep a spell going by allowing anything to have a Concentration duration. So even on a crappy roll, the caster could keep his friends STR buffed by not making other actions on his turn.




Another good idea, this thread is a goldmine. Do you limit the type of spell this can be done with in your games?. I could see my rule-bending crew trying to have their caster concentrate on their ball of fire spell to keep dealing massive damage round after round while giving me their inncoent "its in _your_ rules" looks.


Pilsnerquest


----------



## WSmith

greywulf said:
			
		

> I've written up the Open Ended Magic System based on what's been discussed so far.
> 
> Comments and feedback, as ever, yadda yadda yadda.......
> 
> This is going to be playtested next Wednesday.




I am looking forward to how this plays out. The difficulty I find in open ended magic is that newbies, at least IME, prefer that just have spells that do something specific like sleep, charm, or magic missile. However, veteran RPGers tend to shine with such systems. 

I am going to read it again, as I am getting a little confussed with all the point allocations and such. It might just be me.


----------



## Pilsnerquest

> There you go. I've written up the Open Ended Magic System based on what's been discussed so far.
> 
> It's deviated a little from Realms of Renown, mainly because I've tried to make it accessible in both Microlite20 and ultramicrolite20, but not so much as you can't see it's heritage.
> 
> Comments and feedback, as ever, yadda yadda yadda.......




Wow, the Open Ended Magic looks very solid the way all the pieces have been put together. Nothin left to do now but play.

(In the second example with Norris, I may have missed something but it looks like Norris got 1 extra point too many compared to his final magic roll result.)


Pilsnerquest


----------



## WSmith

I thought the same thing of Norris, too. 

Also, when using for ultramicrolite20, how woud you work damage, since it uses hits instead of hit points.


----------



## Pilsnerquest

I think it would be 1 for 1, 1 point derived from the magic check roll = 1 point damage but don't quote me on that.

rycanada - I added "Rank20 rycanada" to the Realms of Renown OGL. If you don't want it their let me know. I also didn't know if you had a copyright date so I put down 2007.

Does anyone know a good source of OGL artwork? I'd like to drop a picture or two onto the Realms guidline pages to give them some life.


Pilsnerquest


----------



## greywulf

Pilsnerquest said:
			
		

> Wow, the Open Ended Magic looks very solid the way all the pieces have been put together. Nothin left to do now but play.




Thanks! I agree entirely - this isn't a system for inexperienced gamers. I find that when it comes to new players there's a fine balance needed between enough rules, and too many. D&D gets it pretty spot on in that regard. An experienced gamer can handle more rules (splat books, Rolemaster, etc) or less. M20 falls into the latter camp 



			
				Pilsnerquest said:
			
		

> (In the second example with Norris, I may have missed something but it looks like Norris got 1 extra point too many compared to his final magic roll result.)




He gets 1 point for every 5, _or part thereof_ (good word, thereof). He succeeded the check by 16 points, so that gives him 4 points to play with. When I wrote this the first time, I put him at just 3 points then had to revise it, so it tripped me up too 

Hope that helps!

WSmith, good point about ultramicrolite20. I'll revise it to cover that. I'd say 1 point into damage = 1 hit.

EDIT: Damage for uM20 is now in there.


----------



## Ry

Pilsnerquest said:
			
		

> rycanada - I added "Rank20 rycanada" to the Realms of Renown OGL. If you don't want it their let me know. I also didn't know if you had a copyright date so I put down 2007.
> Does anyone know a good source of OGL artwork? I'd like to drop a picture or two onto the Realms guidline pages to give them some life.




I'm going to be releasing another version of Rank20 under the OGL sometime soon - that version will be closer to the ultralite things we've discussed here.  Rank20's copyright is 2006, the first PDF is floating around somewhere.

As for "OGL Artwork" I'm still convinced that your best bet is public domain images.  It's the only way to be sure you're not going to run into copyright issues later.  There's various online sources for it - but it takes a lot of sifting through to find what you want.


----------



## Ry

Pilsnerquest said:
			
		

> Do you limit the type of spell this can be done with in your games?. I could see my rule-bending crew trying to have their caster concentrate on their ball of fire spell to keep dealing massive damage round after round while giving me their inncoent "its in _your_ rules" looks.




I would put (instant) next to the damage and healing effects.  If a player wants damage over time or healing over time, add a new line like "1 hit / 1d6 per round" with a bigger penalty (or point cost, if you're By5s).  Finally, every round I would give monsters a new save.


----------



## greywulf

rycanada said:
			
		

> I would put (instant) next to the damage and healing effects.  If a player wants damage over time or healing over time, add a new line like "1 hit / 1d6 per round" with a bigger penalty (or point cost, if you're By5s).  Finally, every round I would give monsters a new save.




Hmmmmmm..... shhh, I'm thinking.

If it's physical damage directly targeted at them then it's rolled against their AC which is a one-off effect anyhow unless a duration is paid for.  I probably need to make that clear in the rules though.

If it's against an object (like the campfire example given) then using concentration to (say) keep the fire flaming is fair. If the poor mooks can't take the hint not to go near the flaming object after one round, they deserve the damage 

If the object is on a person's body (darn you spellcasters trying to target a fireball on someone's belt buckle) then it uses their AC as the DC - it's ducking, diving and trying to get out of the way with the owner. That came out the wrong way round, but I'm sure you get the idea.

Using AC as DC. I'm sure there's a rock group name in there somewhere, but I just can't see it.


----------



## Bert the Ogre

greywulf said:
			
		

> Hmmmmmm..... shhh, I'm thinking.
> 
> If it's physical damage directly targeted at them then it's rolled against their AC which is a one-off effect anyhow unless a duration is paid for.  I probably need to make that clear in the rules though.
> 
> If it's against an object (like the campfire example given) then using concentration to (say) keep the fire flaming is fair. If the poor mooks can't take the hint not to go near the flaming object after one round, they deserve the damage
> 
> If the object is on a person's body (darn you spellcasters trying to target a fireball on someone's belt buckle) then it uses their AC as the DC - it's ducking, diving and trying to get out of the way with the owner. That came out the wrong way round, but I'm sure you get the idea.
> 
> Using AC as DC. I'm sure there's a rock group name in there somewhere, but I just can't see it.




Um, Metallica?


----------



## Pilsnerquest

rycanada was right about public domain fantasy artwork, it takes _a lot_ of sifting through all kinds of ... stuff. I finally gave up on public domain for the day and then I lucked out at Larry Elmore's website. In the Q&A on his web site he allows for use of his images if credit is given to himself and a link to his web site is furnished. Non-commercial use no doubt. So I spiffed up the Realms of Renown document, thanks to my favorite D&D artist ever, and found it a home here...

Realms of Renown 

Pictures are definitely worth a thousand words.

Something greywolf mentioned a couple of posts up above about experienced gamers and being able to handle the amount of rules and such has me thinking it may be time to start expanding rule-sets. Not with more rules but rather a semblance of introduction. Something smooth like the old red box intro's where you were fed a little at a time through a small mock adventure. I've noticed how much I've left unexplained because of the likelyhood that the person has pretty significant gaming experience and will pick it up. 


Pilsnerquest


----------



## Ry

I've got something like this; a much-expanded version with intro sections, proper explanations, etc.  The thing is, it's written for Rank20's precursor, Legends of the Last Age, which uses 2d6 instead of 1d20 as a mechanic, and a starting Rank of 2 (1 if you're a kid).  It's trivial for me to provide the entire thing in Rank20 terms, but I'm torn because I'd like to release my work under a more permissive license than the OGL (i.e. public domain or creative commons).


----------



## greywulf

Oddly enough I'm shifting my brain into gear to come up with a full, fluff contained pdf with an intro, examples, details, etc. Stay tuned on this one. If anyone wants to contribute, I'll be posting the text in the Macropedia over the next few weeks. Feel free to correct and clarify where you feel it's needed and all help gratefully received 

This is the Macropedia pdf with page layout, the Core Rules at the front and all those lovely House Rules categorized and collated for your game fiddling pleasure. This is also where the campaign setting and a few adventures will live too - all with your permission and full credit given, of course.

Just to clarify - The Core Rules pdf itself will always be minimal to the point of downright terse. I'm going to shift from the existing Core Rules to Kensanata's Revised Core Rules as the "official" ones with the release of the pdf as they're more clearly written than my iniviate brainstorm ladened text.

Sometimes even lesser minds think alike too, eh?


----------



## Ry

'wulf, I wouldn't mind providing some of the expanded Legends system under a Creative Commons attribution-only license (i.e., I give up all rights except the requirement that I be cited for my contribution).  You could then copy and paste sections of my rules, change the language, make it into a commercial product, whatever - as long as I was listed somewhere in the product's credits.  I wouldn't have any rights to the derivative work, but others could later take my work (from my original source) and do what they wanted with it without running afoul of microlite20's copyright.  

Dig?


----------



## Nomad4life

jezter6 said:
			
		

> I like this idea more and more. Anyone think of ditching the multiple dice and MicroTrue 20 it up?
> Heck, the game would be even better if it was so small AND only needed one d20 to play.





I was thinking the same thing.


----------



## Ry

Nomad4life said:
			
		

> I was thinking the same thing.




Ultramicrolite20 and Rank20: Ultralite edition do this, by replacing "damage" mechanics with "hit" mechanics.

You might find that you want to bring my Reserve rules in to do some of the work previously done by hitpoints if you do this.  My reserve rules can be made microlite friendly by changing the "add 1d6" or "add 2d6" to "best of 2 d20 rolls" and "best of 3 d20 rolls".


----------



## jezter6

where is this rank20 again?


----------



## Ry

Pieces are currently jumbled in the last 3 pages of this thread.  I'll put together a new PDF for the ultralite edition today or this weekend.  The older pdf version is harder to follow and needlessly complicated.

Since there seems to be interest in making it d20 die only, I'll use that as the default assumption when I write up the rules for Reserve.


----------



## Pilsnerquest

> This is the Macropedia pdf with page layout, the Core Rules at the front and all those lovely House Rules categorized and collated for your game fiddling pleasure. This is also where the campaign setting and a few adventures will live too - all with your permission and full credit given, of course.




Is there a campaign setting map yet? A little adventure/campaign creation will be a nice break from all the thought about rules and rules systems. 

PIlsnerquest


----------



## jezter6

Guess I'll just have to wait then. I look forward to seeing it. Thus far I haven't been 100% satisfied with any of the (now multiple) simplified d20 systems. Maybe between all of them I can cobble together something workable for me.


----------



## Nomad4life

rycanada said:
			
		

> Ultramicrolite20 and Rank20: Ultralite edition do this, by replacing "damage" mechanics with "hit" mechanics.
> 
> You might find that you want to bring my Reserve rules in to do some of the work previously done by hitpoints if you do this.  My reserve rules can be made microlite friendly by changing the "add 1d6" or "add 2d6" to "best of 2 d20 rolls" and "best of 3 d20 rolls".





Okay, I'm lost.    I'm having a hard time keeping track of all these “nanotech” D20 spinoffs, and the differences between them.  How many are there?  Where can I find them?  Are they all related somehow, or did they start springing up independently from one another?


----------



## jmucchiello

jezter6 said:
			
		

> Guess I'll just have to wait then. I look forward to seeing it. Thus far I haven't been 100% satisfied with any of the (now multiple) simplified d20 systems. Maybe between all of them I can cobble together something workable for me.



I wish my own simplified d20 system was ready so you could have more to digest. I went a completely different direction from m20 so I haven't paid much attention to this thread. But now I'm worried that the market will be saturated with lite20 systems and continuing on mine is a waste of time. My system is entirely feat based. A stat block is just a few numbers and a list of feats. (While I call them feats, they are not at all compatible with d20 feats. This is both an advantage and a failing probably.)

Is there a post that has links to all the side projects: ultramicrolite20, rank20, etc? At 20+ pages, this forum post is ironically titled.


----------



## Pilsnerquest

> Okay, I'm lost. I'm having a hard time keeping track of all these “nanotech” D20 spinoffs, and the differences between them. How many are there? Where can I find them? Are they all related somehow, or did they start springing up independently from one another?





> Is there a post that has links to all the side projects: ultramicrolite20, rank20, etc? At 20+ pages, this forum post is ironically titled.




UltraMicrolite20 - Uses a d20 only, nifty combat engine, no magic system. I think rycanada came up with this, not sure.
http://wiki.greywulf.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/Macropedia

Rank20 - D20 compatible, Ultramicrolite20 roots, skill rank system, magic system included.
Info posted over the last 3-4 pages of this thread. Rycanada said he'd have a pdf by this weekend.

Realms of Renown - Uses a d20 only, Ultramicrolite20 roots, class-less/level-less, magic system included.
http://realmsofrenown.pbwiki.com/ 

Quick20 - Somebody around here came up with this but its at RPG Now so not sure about specifics. Maybe he'll pop in and cover the basics. Looks like it uses a similar combat engine to Ultramicrolite (the "hits" system), 3 classes, skill point pool, magic system.
http://enworld.rpgnow.com/product_reviews_info.php?products_id=15163&reviews_id=14449&


----------



## kensanata

[imager]http://farm1.static.flickr.com/138/353225119_644e902cc4_m.jpg[/imager]


			
				Pilsnerquest said:
			
		

> Is there a campaign setting map yet? A little adventure/campaign creation will be a nice break from all the thought about rules and rules systems.




If you're looking for a map (and a volunteer to draw detailed maps of locations), you can start with the one I offered...

It's not official, of course.

Darrell is also working on a campaign, I think. Not sure if Greywulf plans to pick the first campaign that suits his taste and run with it. That's the micro-kind of thing I'd do, anyway.


----------



## greywulf

I've put a Summary of Lite Systems up on the Macropedia. It's up now, btw - the server aparently ran out of diskspace because another user ran a wayward script. Fixed now though, the admins say.

I've literally just copy-and-pasted Pilsnerquest's text into the page, so if you're responsible for Rank20, Realms of Renown, Quick20 or any other systems you want including in the list, *please edit the page yourself* to correct information, add a URL or detail what's different about the system. There's no registration or password silliness, just hit _Edit this page_ and start typing. Remember to add a username at the bottom of the text though. It helps me to see who done what.

I agree, it's a good idea to keep a summary somewhere, and the Macropedia is as good a place as any 

Kensanata, you're right. There will be one campaign setting pushed to the front, with others as "or you could use these" as well. Variety is good.

Rycanada, yes, I dig


----------



## Ry

Page edited, working on the pdf now.

Since the Reserve mechanic seems to have some interest (and has been a big hit with my players) I'm going to make it part of Rank20's core rules.  Since there's also some interest in doing everything with a d20, I'm also going to make that assumption when I write the core rules.

I'm going to put the rules themselves as one document (which is Creative Commons license, since Rank20 is a direct port of my old system to a d20 scale instead of 2d6), with a "Using Rank20 with d20" document as a separate pdf (OGL license, since I'll be talking about d20).


----------



## Pilsnerquest

> Kensanata, you're right. There will be one campaign setting pushed to the front, with others as "or you could use these" as well. Variety is good.




   The campaign that will be "pushed to the front", will it include a world map? It would be really neat to be able to run an adventure in one location on the map and then have the intrepid adventurers board a boat for distand shores and play through kensanata's Asian influenced adventures while being able to have them look at the world map and say, "wow, our characters were here, and now their all the way over here".

Pilsnerquest


----------



## greywulf

Pilsnerquest said:
			
		

> The campaign that will be "pushed to the front", will it include a world map?




It will if someone makes one and I like it 

My gut says I'd prefer a locale with a coastline, some islands and the landmass continuing off to two or three edges of the map in an inviting "where does this go?" kinda way. That's why I like The Scarlet Sea as it's spot on in that regards. And there's pirates too. Who doesn't love pirates?

The goal is to have a setting that's OGL friendly with plenty of scope for GMs to fill in the blanks - drop ruins here, site the Dungeon adventure there, detail the City of Blargh to the Northwest and generally make it their own. And let publishers do that too, if they want.

So yep, a world map with lots of inspirational goodness could work too.


----------



## Darrell

greywulf said:
			
		

> My gut says I'd prefer a locale with a coastline, some islands and the landmass continuing off to two or three edges of the map in an inviting "where does this go?" kinda way.




Well, if you have a look at the map I posted earlier, that's pretty much what you're gonna get with my Dragonclaw Barony setting.  Major cities and towns will be tagged, along with a few fortresses and known adventuring locales, and there'll be a few paragraphs of text describing what lies to the north, south, east, and west (as well as a basic history of the area), but I'm primarily leaving it open for DM development.



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> The goal is to have a setting that's OGL friendly with plenty of scope for GMs to fill in the blanks - drop ruins here, site the Dungeon adventure there, detail the City of Blargh to the Northwest and generally make it their own. And let publishers do that too, if they want.




Again, that's just what I'm working on.    

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## Ry

Any chance the setting fluff could be Creative Commons, with stats in an OGL document?   Creative Commons fluff is OGL friendly, but that way non-OGL games don't get tripped up if they want to put out other stats for the setting, and nobody gets tripped up offering ideas for it community-style.


----------



## greywulf

Darrell: Sounds (and looks) great so far!

Rycanada: Definitely. I'm going to think hard about how to differentiate the two using boxed text, a differnet font, or whatever. We need to be clear which is which. Given a choice I'd make it all CC, but as we're already using OGL for the rules, then that's the way the rules have to go


----------



## Ry

I'm actually finding it easier to write to a non-gamer audience, so bear with me.  The Rank20 pdf will be longer than Microlite20, but it will have nice friendly 12-size fonts and explanations for newbies.


----------



## eyebeams

Greywulf,

Thanks for mentioning Quick20; I've edited the wiki accordingly.

Incidentally, I now have three supplements (one released tonight!) and three bundles for the game. You can find all products to date here:

http://www.rpgnow.com/default.php?manufacturers_id=774&filter_id=1902&

I'll be supporting the game with regular supplements as it's doing quite well.


----------



## greywulf

eyebeams, thanks for editing the wiki, much appreciated.

Quick20 is right at the top of my to-buy list. I'm itching to see how you've managed what Microlite20 is merely aspiring to be - a fast, lite d20 system without all the baggage of core D&D slowing it down. Long may you continue!

Here in the uk it's 2am, and time for bed.

'night all


----------



## Pilsnerquest

Both (Kensanata and Darrell's) maps are nice. I just need some sand, not alot just a little, anywhere, the marauding desert nomads need the sand. 

Pilsnerquest


----------



## Ry

Alright, I'm going to bed too, but here's the newest pdf of Rank20.  This is the Creative Commons version, so it uses the terminology that evolved in my homebrew (i.e. Agility instead of Dexterity).  I will put another document on how easy it is to use d20 with Rank20 sometime later, probably this weekend or Monday.  For now, I'm versioning by date.

Feel free to host this somewhere (of course, since it's Creative Commons I can't stop you even if I wanted to!)

Good night 
- ry

(attachment removed, see updated version in next post)


----------



## Ry

Cleaned up slightly this morning, included all the optional rules that I've put into this thread so far.  

The file looks like it's 11 pages, but it's written for everybody.  I think experienced gamers could get it down to a page, but I'm just not that good at writing that way (I leave things out).

Please take a look and enjoy - I won't be putting together another version this week - I'd like to collect feedback etc. first.


----------



## kensanata

Not sure why, but on my OSX 10.3.9 the PDF is corrupt. The number of pages is there, the logo is there, but the characters themselves are either garbage or empty boxes...


----------



## Ry

bizarre... well, I have an rtf version too:


----------



## greywulf

kensanata said:
			
		

> Not sure why, but on my OSX 10.3.9 the PDF is corrupt. The number of pages is there, the logo is there, but the characters themselves are either garbage or empty boxes...




Ry, it sounds like you need to embed the fonts in the pdf. That'll bump up the size, but will look fine to everyone.

Looks good to me (both layout-wise and content-wise) on my Linux system


----------



## Ry

The font I've used is verdana, and I'm using PDFCreator which embeds fonts by default... 

I'd love some criticism, suggestions for more, etc. for Rank20.  I think as-is it's like a substructure you could put most of the Macropedia onto with little effort.


----------



## greywulf

rycanada said:
			
		

> The font I've used is verdana, and I'm using PDFCreator which embeds fonts by default...




Odd, in that case. Kensanata's Mac should be able to handle that just fine, even without the embedding. Ah well.

I'll pass Rank20 onto a few of my group and ask them to playtest it. Feeback will be forthcoming.

And Pilsnerquest, if we have a coastline there's sand there. Would beach nomads work? They could build sand castles and talk in an Aussie accent 

I'll put a map of a desert on the reverse side of the campaign map for you. Yep, the blank side.

Seriously, a desert is a good idea. I like deserts too. Especially ones containing psionic cannibal halflings. Consider it considered.


----------



## Ry

'wulf, can you host the Rank20 pdf as a link from that overview of systems page?


----------



## greywulf

rycanada said:
			
		

> 'wulf, can you host the Rank20 pdf as a link from that overview of systems page?




I will with pleasure - as soon as the admins fix the server AGAIN. It's down to zero diskspace again, most likely thanks to a runaway script on there. I've told them to delete my apache logfiles too as they're taking up 3Gb of space and go back to Feb2004. I suspect other users' logfiles are taking up the roughly the same space too. Sheesh!

When it's fixed, I'll upload the .pdf and .rtf and link into them, ok?

Thanks.


----------



## greywulf

UPDATE: the server is a happy bunny again, so I've uploaded Rank20 .pdf and .rtf and put the download links on the Summary of lite systems page.

Enjoy.


----------



## kensanata

There's something I've been wondering about the core combat rules: Why is combat with two weapons and combat using DEX instead of STR to-hit reserved for fighters and rogues? Other rules such as multiple attacks with cumulative -5 or the use of two-handed weapons are not similarly restricted. And fighters already get +1 for every five levels. Is this a rule that is supposed to simulate some D&D rule, or is this rule supposed to enforce class concept? If so, I'd propose to drop those limitations in the next revision...


----------



## Ry

I agree that DEX should be used whenever it's a light weapon, and anybody should be able to use two-handed weapons (unless they're specifically martial, in which case just fighters I'd say).


----------



## greywulf

The theory behind it was to simulate the most likely feats that a light-weapon wielding Fighter or Rogue would take - Weapon Finesse and Two-Weapon Fighting. I wanted to reflect a Fighter's proficiency and a Rogue's skill with light weapons. As it stands, a Mage or Cleric can use any weapon at all without penalty - meaning sword-wielding Magi don't need to multi-class, so no multi-class rules were needed in Core, and a Cleric can use the Chosen weapon of their God without penalty. I figured giving them more of a buff in combat than that was pushing it.

Outside an Oriental-style setting where I'd judge anyone can wield weapons specifically designed as a weapon pair (tonfa, sai, etc), I'd be wary of giving those benefits to spell-slingers as their power-level plays just fine as it is.

In combat, Fighters are the best thanks to their +1 attack and damage (simulating any number of feats a D&D Fighter would take), then Rogues as they can also use two-weapons and benefit form their typically high DEX with light weapons. Next up is Clerics because of their ability to use armour, then Magi - though a Magi in Mage Armour wielding a Greatsword is a sight to behold!

I have a player in my game who's playing a Magi with a Greatsword who's running him as a Pictish Warrior. He's covered in Woad, almost naked and calls spirits from the campfire, effigies around his neck and the earth itself to aid him in combat. Scary, but brilliant.

All characters get multiple attacks after their total attack bonus reaches +6, just taking a -5 on each additional attack after the first. If you really, really wanted a two-weapon wielding Mage there's no reason why you couldn't apportion those additional attacks between a weapon in each hand. So a Magi wielding paired shortswords could hit with the first at +7 and the other one at +2, say. At lower levels they just don't have the training, though theoretically a STR 18 Magi could manage two attacks at +6/+1 by level 2. 

Make sense?

In contrast, a 2nd level Fighter with STR 18 could use those shortswords at +7/+2 (thanks to their +1), or +5/+5 because of their Two-Weapon Fighting training.

Of course, I'm open to be convinced, but feel that making TWF and Light weapon use open to anyone, you're weakening the Fighter and Rogue rather than improving the game..... but what do I know?


----------



## Ry

Oh, I misread TWF as Two-handed fighting above.  

TWF I think should be Fighter & Rogue only... but honestly, I don't think TWF rules need to be in the core (I avoided them in Rank20) because you can have perfectly good fantasy games without them, and I find it impacts the design of regular fighting in order to accomodate TWF.


----------



## kensanata

Thanks for your thoughts on this, Greywulf. Duly copied to the Macropedia and edited slightly.


----------



## Ry

I would like to donate the following scenario idea to the creative commons:

Defend the station against crack commandos with your slightly genemodded mutant selves - but you've got to do it in such a way that they won't just send more.

Serenity Lost is a station of ex-military personnel and lost colonists from a nearby failed terraforming. They have, as a community, converted to Trancendental Evolutionary Vajrayana - it was the tools of genetic engineering that allowed them to survive despite their dearth of food, raw materials, and oxygen.

The scenario opens with the monks that went to the diplomatic meeting arriving home with the bad news that it was fruitless.  The central government will not relent, and if their demands were met, the people of Serenity Lost would be "relocated" to an earthlike planet where they would be consigned to a life of chronic illness without their biotech.

The murmur goes through the crowd of assembled monastics - "what happens next?"

Their diplomat - an ex-military man and respected almost as much as their old master - raises his hands for silence. "They will not act openly - we know that, because we were once part of them. It will be a black op, which means a small ship - and commandos, with a mission to kill us, and make it look like an accident. We must make ready to protect ourselves."

Now the old master speaks: "We seek harmony with all beings. We must not fear the men of the government, even if they come against us."

As if on cue, an explosion is heard, jarring the station. Lights flash, then go out. Those with military experience recognize that a boarding party is arriving on the expansive Serenity Lost at this very moment - and without advanced armaments, the monks have no hope in a direct confrontation.

In the dark moment, before the dim of the auxiliary lights can be made out, the monks hear the master's last words: "Instead, we will teach them."


----------



## Ry

Phew... 

The old adage still holds:  Go to EN World to build your RPG up, and RPG.net to find out what's wrong with it.  Rank20's going to need some serious work.


----------



## greywulf

Kensanata, thanks for updating the Macropedia  Good work.

Ry, just remember that art is never perfect. If it was, it wouldn't be art!

Good scenario, btw. You'd need experienced players to be able to handle it.


----------



## Ry

greywulf said:
			
		

> Ry, just remember that art is never perfect. If it was, it wouldn't be art!
> 
> Good scenario, btw. You'd need experienced players to be able to handle it.




And a REALLY good set of maps for that space station, full of environmental elements the PCs can exploit and strategic points (life support room, timed detonators in keys spots, etc.)



As for art, if I make it, it has to be instantly perfect!  I must now commit seppuku in penance for my transgressions!

(Looks at katana)     :\ 

Well, maybe later.


----------



## kensanata

rycanada scenario reminds me of my old Io 3 adventure where the computer goes nuts:



> The story centers around a paranoid Computer that took over the space-side resort Io III. The resort resembles a giant wheel about 1200m in diameter. It rotates around itself once every 8s and produces a pseudo-gravity of about 1.0g at the rim. The space station is run by The Computer gone nuts. The Computer is collecting all the guests in the hall.
> 
> The goal is to return The Computer to normal functioning. While trying to achieve this, the robots sent out by The Computer and his servants have to be evaded or eliminated. Most rooms provide some suggestions for traps that player characters (PCs) might want to use against the electronic minions. This battle is complicated by other factions trying to take over Io III. Possible endings are the expulsion of the PCs from Io III by the winners of this battle, or the PCs siding with a faction and winning themselves. Possible follow-ups include trying to reestablish peace and order, trying to get away while being pursued by space cops and NPCs introduced in this scenario, or returning to the normal space-time-continuum, should the PCs end up being abducted into faery.




Yes, it was inspired by Gatecrasher.


----------



## WSmith

rycanada said:
			
		

> TWF I think should be Fighter & Rogue only... but honestly, I don't think TWF rules need to be in the core (I avoided them in Rank20) because you can have perfectly good fantasy games without them, and I find it impacts the design of regular fighting in order to accomodate TWF.




While I personally would agree with you, I have found that many, many players in this day and age _like_ two-weapon fighting type characters, enough that I would venture to say this small passage should be enough to satisfy them without too much bulk to the core rules.


----------



## greywulf

I kinda agree with both of you. Kinda.

I felt that if I'd left TWF out, too many people would have asked for them. So, I stuck them in and it gives a nice power-boost to Fighter and Rogues. For the sake of a few extra lines of text, I felt it was worth the inclusion.

In a similar vein, here's an extract from one of our Microlite20 sessions many moons ago:

Mark: Can I use the two-weapon fighting rules when I'm wielding a quarterstaff?
Me(DM): How many weapons are you holding?
Mark: Um.....one.
Me: OK. So what's your next dumb question going to be?



I then explained that when his to-hit bonus gets to +6 he'll get multiple attacks anyhow and I don't care which end of the staff he uses. He was happy with that, and we moved on.

Interestingly (well, interesting if you're a geek like me) there is an important difference between d20 and Microlite20's TWF rules; under M20 only light weapons can be paired, with the exception of the rapier which is given honourary light status. With d20 there's no problem pairing a longsword and shortsword. I avoided that on purpose for M20 as it adds a whole new layer of complexity and IMHO is less realistic. Longwords are HEAVY.

Followers of Miyamoto Musashi might disagree however, but his Niten-ryu fighting style of using the Daisho together was very rare, and demanded extensive training and strength. I'd judge that more suitable to higher level Fighters who use their multiple attacks to mix Katana and Wakizashi strikes. I'd give them a +1 to attack because of the uncommon style, rather than use M20's TWF rules.

For example, a 6th level Fighter with STR16 would have attacks with his Daisho at +11/+6/+1 (including the +1 for being a Fighter, and another +1 because of the funky fighting style) provided the attacks were spread between his katana and wakizashi in any combination. 

In contrast, using 2 wakizashi (unthinkable and an insult to nobility everywhere) he'd have +8/+8/+3.

Hope that makes sense


----------



## WSmith

kensanata said:
			
		

> Not sure why, but on my OSX 10.3.9 the PDF is corrupt. The number of pages is there, the logo is there, but the characters themselves are either garbage or empty boxes...




If you are using Preview, this happens for some reason. I had the same result, but opened it with Acrobat Reader and it displayed fine.


----------



## WSmith

greywulf said:
			
		

> I felt that if I'd left TWF out, too many people would have asked for them. So, I stuck them in and it gives a nice power-boost to Fighter and Rogues. For the sake of a few extra lines of text, I felt it was worth the inclusion.




Pretty much what I thought, too. I like that only light weapons can be used for two weapon fighting. It reminds me of OAD&D, where your second weapon could only be a dagger or hand axe, but with a tad bit more flexibility. Ahhh yeah, good stuff.


----------



## kensanata

Hah! I was not the first to bring up Niten-ryu! When one of my players mentioned it, I told him that nobody had ever really mastered this style ever since.


----------



## greywulf

kensanata said:
			
		

> Hah! I was not the first to bring up Niten-ryu! When one of my players mentioned it, I told him that nobody had ever really mastered this style ever since.




Funnily, I though of you when I wrote that  Geeks together, eh?!

In other news: I've given Microlite20 an optional Simplified XP System after one of my group wanted to see how he could remove CR/EL from D&D. I seemed a good fit for M20 as well for peeps who want something a little more fine-grained (and old-school) than M20's EL system.

Comments, as ever, yadda yadda.......


----------



## kensanata

Actually today two of my non-fighter players complained about the (only) fighter in the group being too powerful. Anybody else with that impression? In my Japanese setting, this samurai has an excellent family heirloom katana he uses with both hands, getting an impressive katana+9/+4 (1d10+8) as a fighter-3.


----------



## greywulf

To pull others into the discussion; I added this Comment to yours on the thread about the CoreRulesRevised in the Macropedia:



> I’d say the Fighter-3 shouldn’t get the +1 for focus on both attack and damage. Choose one or the other; I’d suggest damage as he’s already got a +1 to attack from the katana being masterwork. Oh, and that damage shouldn’t be doubled - STR only, so it should be d10+7.
> 
> The Fighter should also be limited in some other way if he’s focusing on the katana. Say, he refuses to wield any other melee weapon if he loses the ancestral katana. Now, wouldn’t that be a cool thing to happen next scenario, not that I’m putting ideas in your head or anything……..


----------



## Darrell

Hello, all.  I've finished (at least tentatively) the microlite20 campaign setting I was working on.  It was too big to post on this thread, and I'm too techno-illiterate to know how the m20 wiki-thing works yet, so I've e-mailed it to greywulf.  Whenever he puts it up, let me know what you all think.   

'wulf, it's headed your way.    

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## greywulf

....and it's available for immediate download, here (321k .pdf). Info page on the Macropedia will be forthcoming shortly, but this is too darned good to hold back.

Darrell, I've skim read it (yes, I _do_ read that fast  ), and it's perfect for what we need - lots of fluff, low crunch and just enough info to spark ideas. I love the pantheon, especially. Nice work!


----------



## Darrell

greywulf said:
			
		

> ....and it's available for immediate download, here (321k .pdf). Info page on the Macropedia will be forthcoming shortly, but this is too darned good to hold back.
> 
> Darrell, I've skim read it (yes, I _do_ read that fast  ), and it's perfect for what we need - lots of fluff, low crunch and just enough info to spark ideas. I love the pantheon, especially. Nice work!




Thanks!      Glad you like it!

Can't wait to see what kind of 'musculature' gets added to the 'skeleton' I wrote up.    

The pantheon, incidentally, is one I've been working on off and on for several years.  I've been trying to cover most of the 'traditional' areas of deific influence using as few gods as possible.  One of the things I dislike most about Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and the other established settings is the enormous proliferation of gods.  Scarred Lands, I thought, had it down early on (nine gods, one for each alignment), but then they added on their own minor deities, quasi-deities, and all that rot.  So, I thought I'd make my own set.      I think I've covered the various spheres of influence well enough.

If anyone is interested, I've also written them up in 3.5e/d20 format.  If ya want to take a look at 'em, e-mail me at rev_sims 'at' yahoo 'dot' com, and I'll send you the write-up.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## greywulf

....and the Dragonclaw Barony now has it's own page in the Macropedia. I love working at the speed of wiki 

Comments welcome, as ever.

Thanks again, Darrell.


----------



## kensanata

*Initiative*

Another question: I find that initiative rules are overly complicated. When combat starts, the two sides can roll for initiative. But every single combatant rolling for initiative every single round!? Is there a microlite solution out there?


----------



## greywulf

kensanata said:
			
		

> But every single combatant rolling for initiative every single round!? Is there a microlite solution out there?




They do? Wow. Not in my games they don't, regardless of system. I really ought to read the rules more 

We roll once at the start of combat. As DM, I roll for each monster. Sometimes I just make one roll for them all, or split them into groups. Depends on how complex the critters are, really.

If anyone (or anything) enters combat late, they roll initiative and enter the fray when it's their turn. The only time initiative is re-rolled once combat start is if something big causes everyone to pause mid-flow. That's happened a few times; in one game, a major villain was killed, and everyone parted in silence for a minute out of respect, then the combat resumed with new initiative rolls. Oh, and there's a spell out there somewhere which forces everyone to re-roll initiative. I forget which rpg system though. Man, I'd forget my memory if it wasn't....um.... what was I saying?

Oh yes. Initiative. 

Roll it once at the start of combat. The end.


----------



## kensanata

greywulf said:
			
		

> Roll it once at the start of combat. The end.




Maybe my players remembered something like that from AD&D 2nd ed, the last system we played. It turns out that I use initiative just like you do. Usually I lump them together, unless there's a particular reason to single one of the critters out… Now that I know I'm no longer alone, I feel better.


----------



## greywulf

kensanata said:
			
		

> Maybe my players remembered something like that from AD&D 2nd ed, the last system we played. It turns out that I use initiative just like you do. Usually I lump them together, unless there's a particular reason to single one of the critters out… Now that I know I'm no longer alone, I feel better.




Ick. That's bad. 2nd edition was.....well, I'm banned from saying what I think of it because of the forum rules. Let's leave it at that.

This doc summarises the Initiative rules from AD&D. It's genuinely scary. 

Don't say I didn't warn you.


----------



## snikle

LOL 20 pages to show how to handle initiative!!


----------



## kensanata

greywulf said:
			
		

> This doc summarises the Initiative rules from AD&D. It's genuinely scary.




Gah, another garbled document. Interestingly enough, the footnotes are perfectly legible. It's the main text that is garbled. How annoying… I will pull out my AD&D 2nd ed PHB and look it up in there.


----------



## Ry

Hmm...

Having had several days to think about it, I'm becoming convinced that my attempt to "keep things simple" by making everything about magic a modifier in Rank20 actually made things more difficult than if I had used a simple subsystem (like the Open Magic idea).

I think I'm going to try to write up a By5 magic system today.  And can we start calling that system By5?  I think it's more descriptive than Open Magic.


----------



## eyebeams

greywulf said:
			
		

> Ick. That's bad. 2nd edition was.....well, I'm banned from saying what I think of it because of the forum rules. Let's leave it at that.
> 
> This doc summarises the Initiative rules from AD&D. It's genuinely scary.
> 
> Don't say I didn't warn you.




Actually, that's the rules for 1E's combat system. 2E was considerably simplified by comparison, usually in eliminating 1E rules nobody used anyway.


----------



## greywulf

eyebeams said:
			
		

> Actually, that's the rules for 1E's combat system. 2E was considerably simplified by comparison, usually in eliminating 1E rules nobody used anyway.




That's true. It sure is darned scary though! 

And eyebeams. That thing you said. Y'know, _that_ thing. Let's do it.


----------



## greywulf

Deleted. Duplicate post. Darned browser.


----------



## jmucchiello

greywulf said:
			
		

> That's true. It sure is darned scary though!
> 
> And eyebeams. That thing you said. Y'know, _that_ thing. Let's do it.



DUN DUN DUN!!!  Sorry, but it needed musical accompanyment.

(I smell a company forming....)


----------



## Ry

Sounds more like a quest to me.


----------



## greywulf

It is. We're going to take the D&D rules for AoO and throw them into Mount Doom. Anyone want to come?

"One rule to fool them all, and in the darkness bind them........."

I'll leave eyebeams to tell you when he's ready. If he still wants to do it, of course. Y'know. That thing.

Meantime, I'm busy working out how to use the Open Ended Magic System in a post-apocalyptic (damn that's a hard word to type. My fingers feel like they've just done the tango) world, 200 years from now. I'm thinking Magi as fledgling New Gods. What do you think? 

An adventuring party could consist of a Magi (the New God, learning his powers), a Cleric (his Speaker, the New God's appointed herald and teacher), and his bodyguards (Fighters and Rogues). They're on a quest to find the New God's path in a broken world. Yeh. That would work. 

I imagine Monkey meets Mad Max. Nice.

Oh, and I'm collating the Macropedia in a Big Shiny document this week for submission to Mark @ CMG. 

And there's a few (minor) rules changes in the Core Rules that are just clarifications which I'm sure y'all using anyway.

- Clerics can use shields. Of course they can. Silly me for missing it
- A Rogue's Sneak attack is usable each round of combat provided he keeps making his Sneak (sub+DEX) check, and it's usable at range too. Rogues should be able to hide and snipe at foes from a distance, gaining their sub as bonus damage on the first attack each round.

All this is much clearer in the Revised Core Rules, which will also be checked through with a fine toothcomb and made official Sometime Soon. I thought it important to add those little snippets in the Core doc in the meantime. 

I haven't updated the .pdfs to reflect those change though, as I'm going through them anyway and the Revised one will be out soon.

Hope that's ok by all.


----------



## Ry

If you want to put Reserve into your big shiny document, feel free.


----------



## Pilsnerquest

> It is. We've going to take the D&D rules for AoO and throw them into Mount Doom. Anyone want to come?




I thought we already did this? I never saw any mention of AoO in Microlite20 therefore it did not exist. Interesting, declaring no AoO...what are you up to over there? 

Pilsnerquest


----------



## Ry

I made some AoO-like optional rules for Rank20... does that make me Boromir?


----------



## greywulf

Pilsnerquest said:
			
		

> I thought we already did this? I never saw any mention of AoO in Microlite20 therefore it did not exist. Interesting, declaring no AoO...what are you up to over there?




And you never will. I swear on my first character's grave (a scout in Traveller, circa 1977. Died in the first combat).

In D&D however, AoO is alive an well, corrupting the minds of young and old alike. But that's another story.

Ry, if it's in the Macropedia, it'll go in Big Shiny. Which means we need to get  Reserve Points in  If you find time, please click that link, press _Edit this page_ and paste the text in. I'll take it from there.

Thanks!


----------



## greywulf

rycanada said:
			
		

> I made some AoO-like optional rules for Rank20... does that make me Boromir?




More like Sauron!


----------



## WSmith

greywulf said:
			
		

> And you never will. I swear on my first character's grave (a scout in Traveller, circa 1977. Died in the first combat).




Lucky! At least your first charcater made it to a combat. My first Traveller charcater died during character creation!  

For all those mentioning AD&D initiative; trust me. Close the ADDICT file, put down the book, and step away from the computer slowly! If I and the many other 1st editon scholars cannot come to a consensus about how initiative is supposed to work after decades of debate, it will do nothing but take this very productive microlite20 thread on a hijacked rollercoaster ride that will leave you feeling like mugging victim.  The simple answer is roll a d6 for each side every round with the higher winning. That is all you need to remember. The rest will give you cold sweats in the middle of the night.  

Saying all that, I am going to have INIT rolled once per round on a d12 with DEX added. That is just my kooky way of doing things.  

I am actually toying with the idea of ditching initiative all together. In all RPGs. Period. Crazy as it sounds, it tempts me. 

Anyway, I like fighters to stand out. Makes them mo better at killing stuff.  

I am going to find my XP chart I posted here that goes along with my 100 XP / HD OD&D method for submission to the Macropedia.


----------



## Ry

Reserve added to Macropedia (ugly, but available)

My best idea for a By5 magic system is not ultralite.


----------



## WSmith

Some stuff that you might want to add to the macropedia: 

*Conversion of 1st edition material to M20:*

Armor Class = 20 - Text AC. So an AC of 4 in the module would be an AC of 16 in M20. 

Saving throws would be converted to

Paralyzation, Poison, Death Magic  = STR + Phys
Petrification / Polymorph = STR + Phys
Rod, Staff, Wand = DEX + Knowledge
Breath Weapon = DEX + Phys
Spells = Mind + Knowledge

*Alternative Experience Point system:*

Characters earn 100 experience points (XP) per HD of defeated monster. To increase in level, use the following chart. 

Level / XP required:
1...2000
2...4000
3...8000
4...16000
5...32000
6...64000
7...120000
8...240000
9...360000

Add 120,000 XP for each level above 9th.


----------



## kensanata

*Multiple Attacks*

Ok, so all classes can have multiple attacks if their attack bonus is high enough. Now, pick a monster from a d20 source, such as the bearded devil with glaive+9 (1d10+4). Does he use glaive+9/+4 or just glaive+9?

In yesterday's session I let the devil use glaive+9/+4 against my group of three 2nd and 3rd level player characters, plus their support group of three fighter-5 and two fighter-1 NPCs...

The mage and the two fighter-1 NPCs were the only ones not to be lying on the floor and slowly bleeding to death at the end of this fight. But a group of healers is standing ready at the temple gate, so help is on its way.


----------



## greywulf

Thanks Ry. I've prettified it up'n'stuff. I also added that that Reserve gets reset back to equal the MIND stat when a new level is reached. Any usused Reserve Points are lost. If that doesn't suit, please feel free to change it.

That gives a completely average character 10 RPs each level - one per encounter, roughly. That sounds about right on paper, but most characters are going to be higher than that, and Magi are likely to have lots to spend. That might work though. I'll playtest this next session (tomorrow) and see it that works. 

Blast, I just remembered that Ultramicrolite20 doesn't have a MIND stat, only bonuses. I'll think about how to fix that later. And I'll add the good Mr Smith's AD&D conversion too. Good work! I plan to take my players through the classic D&D modules using M20 at some point, and this will prove invaluable.

Now though, I gott fly!


----------



## greywulf

kensanata said:
			
		

> In yesterday's session I let the devil use glaive+9/+4 against my group of three 2nd and 3rd level player characters, plus their support group of three fighter-5 and two fighter-1 NPCs...




I've played them as written. If the statblock says they just get +9, then it's just +9 (and no other attack). If they have a full attack at +9/+4 then that's what they gets. Less to think about for the DM that way.

As a rough rule of the thumb, my groups thinks that an M20 combat round feels about 3 seconds long. You'll never hear me admit it in public though.When creating your own monsters, if you think the Bug Ugly Brute can hit twice in that time, let him. If not, then he doesn't.

Does that help?

Now I really gotta go!


----------



## kensanata

*Initiative*



			
				WSmith said:
			
		

> I am actually toying with the idea of ditching initiative all together. In all RPGs. Period. Crazy as it sounds, it tempts me.




This sounds like the path of microlite resistance! I think that's what I'll do.

When one group surprises the other, they start, with players and NPCs alternating. If players need more guidance, let them act in order of their DEX. As a GM, I won't bother for the bad guys.

If there's no surprise, use reach (arm size or weapon size) or DEX as a guide, or both sides roll a dice and the higher one begins.


----------



## kensanata

*Saving Throws*



			
				WSmith said:
			
		

> Saving throws would be converted …




I posted this to the StatConversion page, but I think it is lacking a DC. What's it going to be: 10 + caster level + caster MIND bonus? That's what the CoreRules say.

But the CoreRulesRevised no longer have that passage:



> To hit evading enemies, add the magic attack bonus to a d20 roll. If equal or higher than your opponent’s AC, it’s a hit. To enchanting unwilling opponents, 1d20 + magic attack bonus must be higher than 1d20 + level + MIND bonus of the opponent.




I think to best emulate the old saving throw feature, I need to add something – either DC = 10 + caster level + caster MIND bonus, or (simpler) DC = 20. What do you prefer, WSmith?


----------



## kensanata

*Multiple Attacks for Monsters*



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> I've played them as written. […] Less to think about for the DM that way.




I like your line of thinking. That's how it's going to be.


----------



## Ry

Yeah, In Rank20 you get back 1/2 Rank per night, because it's essential to the system.  It depends on how you want to define Reserve.


----------



## WSmith

kensanata said:
			
		

> I think to best emulate the old saving throw feature, I need to add something – either DC = 10 + caster level + caster MIND bonus, or (simpler) DC = 20. What do you prefer, WSmith?




Hum. This, I must think on. I am very, very rusty on d20 rules so I might have to defer to you guys on this. 

On one hand, when opposing an enemy spellcaster, the 10 + caster level + MIND bouns seem to make the most sense. HOWEVER, not all spells will be cast from a caster. Some will originate from statutes or wands or artifacts and such. A dragon's breath is an innate abilty, not really a spell. I dunno. Maybe DC of 20 + the spell level? How would spell like abilites be handled without getting to complex? DC 20 + the HD of the creature?


----------



## Ry

*By5 Glyphs*

In the By5 Glyphs magic system, spell actions are like skill rolls.  All spells start as the “free spell”, and are enhanced by Glyphs.  Casters make a skill check with their Magic+INT skill (this is also the total that enemies must resist in case of resisted spells).  

For each 5 points of the total magic skill check, a character adds a Glyph to the base spell.

The caster must decide how many glyphs to cast before their roll.  If they do not meet Glyphs * 5 with their roll, the spell automatically fails.

*The free spell*

The free spell is harmless, with a touch range, targeting a single individual, occurring immediately, ending instantly and creating nothing.

*Glyphs*
Deal 1 hit
Heals instead of Deals hits
Raise a Stat by 2
Lowers instead of Raises Stat
5' of radius
15’ of cone
30’ of line
Improve Range
Simple Trigger
2 rounds of duration
Sustained by Caster
Hard to Resist (-2 to resister)

*Notes*

Multiple triggers can cause a spell effect multiple times.  For example, a spell designed to reduce a stat can have a trigger of “next time that stat is used.”  If it had that trigger twice, it would work the next 2 times that stat is used.

*Custom Glyphs*

If a player wants a specific type of magic not covered by these rules, have them come up with a custom glyph.  You could add other special effects to the players’ repertoire by making other secret glyphs available during the campaign.  Custom glyphs may have special rules for what can be applied to them, and powerful custom glyphs may need to be treated as multiple glyphs.

*Ideas for Custom Glyphs*

Steal – steals an item not in target’s hand.  Must be combined with 30’ of lines back to caster.
Invisibility – Treat as 3 glyphs.


----------



## Ry

WSmith, I"d use _DC = 10 + caster level + caster MIND bonus_

Statues/Wands/Artifacts = Caster power of the one who made them+mind bonus of maker
Monsters = HD+mind bonus of monsters


----------



## jmucchiello

WSmith said:
			
		

> Lucky! At least your first charcater made it to a combat. My first Traveller charcater died during character creation!



Now that is proper first Traveller character death. Was it in combat or from old age? 


> I am actually toying with the idea of ditching initiative all together. In all RPGs. Period. Crazy as it sounds, it tempts me.



When I'm feeling cranky about initiative, I go back to everything happens at once. You have each player act in reverse Dex (agility, reflex whatever the system calls it) order. Effects such as death, paralysis, lose of limb, etc don't take effect until everybody has acted. Cool thing is, two swordfighters can run each other through, just like in real life.

Reverse Dex order gives higher dex characters the ability to change their actions based on what the slower folk do. While you can't stop their attacks you can switch targets based on how they've telegraphed their intent.


----------



## greywulf

I go an leave the net for a few hours and look what happens......Microlite20 ends up with another magic system, an O/AD&D conversion system and the makings of a revised combat system. Ouch! I better not leave next time. There's no predicting what you guys will do 

Getting rid of initiative....hmmmm.....ok. Convince me. Come up with a set of simple rules and we'll stick it in the Macropedia. I love the idea of simultaneous combat too, but I've yet to see one that works as well as good old fashoined cyclic rounds. I dunno.

Talking of the Macropedia.... I've put some work into the Macropedia pdf, codename Big Shiny. It's largely Big, Shiny but Empty right now, and there's still a tonne of stuff to push in, but it's getting there. The Core Rules are in, the Intro is written, optional races and classes are there, as is the Big Skill list, the Critters and a load of pregenerated characters. 

That might sound a lot, but I've still got to drop in the equipment, spell lists and monsters. That's a LOT of tables. And I hate tables, expecially in Open Office. 

Then there's the optional combat rules, and magic, and the campaign settings, and the adventures. I'm guessing 64 pages by the time I'm done.

This might take a while 

The layout is in a style roughly how I envisage it to end up, with two columns and a wide gutter to add in comments, cross-references and rationales for the rules being the way they are. It's reminiscent of Ptolus and the HERO system layout, and I like it. 

In between pouring in content and making minor changes to the text along the way, I'm also on the lookout for a decent cover image. Volunteer assistance in this respect is more than welcome!

Do you want to take a peek at how it looks so far? Do you? Do you?

Ok, you asked for it. Here's Big Shiny version 0.1 (148k pdf) AKA "I told you it was empty".


----------



## Ry

Don't ditch initiative.  It's ... familiar.


----------



## kensanata

*Saving Throws*



			
				WSmith said:
			
		

> A dragon's breath is an innate abilty, not really a spell. I dunno. Maybe DC of 20 + the spell level? […] DC 20 + the HD of the creature?




I don't even own the MM!  But I had the impression that a lot of things such as scrolls are listed with an appropriate "caster level". If my impression is wrong, then we need to compute an appropriate DC. If we use a plain 20, then eventually epic characters will save 95% of the time. This may actually be appropriate. I think the old saving throw tables did in fact go down to 3 or 4.

Alternatively, we can use 20 + minimum spell level, and HD of the creature if no spell level is available. Thus, evading a magic missile attack is always DC 21, no matter who casts it. I think it would work.


----------



## kensanata

*Initiative & Open Office*



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> Getting rid of initiative....hmmmm.....ok. Convince me. Come up with a set of simple rules and we'll stick it in the Macropedia.




How about this simplification:

Everyone can do one thing each turn; move, attack, cast a spell, etc. The surprising group goes first, or else both groups roll 1d20 + highest DEX bonus and the winning group goes first.

In other words, if the party has a super teenage ninja elf, he rolls for initiative, always. His presence positively affects everybody.

As for Open Office, Greywulf: You saw that some of my stuff is available as OO files, right?


----------



## Ry

Congrats, Ken, you convinced me (that it can be done elegantly, that is... initiative stays in my home game).

I like pdfs and rtfs, but whatever.


----------



## bytor4232

kensanata said:
			
		

> How about this simplification:
> 
> Everyone can do one thing each turn; move, attack, cast a spell, etc. The surprising group goes first, or else both groups roll 1d20 + highest DEX bonus and the winning group goes first.
> 
> In other words, if the party has a super teenage ninja elf, he rolls for initiative, always. His presence positively affects everybody.
> 
> As for Open Office, Greywulf: You saw that some of my stuff is available as OO files, right?




What I've done in the past is bell curve.  I roll once for the bad guy group.  The PCs all roll and the highest and lowest roll gets dropped, and average whats left.  It sounds complicated, but I do it pretty fast in my head.  Its a lot easier than trying to keep everything in order.

As an example, a bunch of orcs are attacking the PCs.  I roll once for the orcs they get a 16.  My players all roll.  The players all roll a 26, a 15, a 13, and a 3.  I drop the 3 and 26, the average between 15 and 13 is 14.  The orcs go first.  When the PCs go the guy who rolled the 26 will go first, then clockwise around the table.  

This might be too complicated for Microlite20.  I would suggest suprise goes first, otherwise someone rolls for the party.  It will keep it pretty simple that way.


----------



## eyebeams

I've sent you an email, Greywulf.


----------



## jmucchiello

DUN DUN DUN!!!  




I am weak


----------



## greywulf

eyebeams, email received, understood and replied to. The sparrow flies at midnight.

If that doesn't get more DUN DUN DUNs from jmucchiello, nothing will 

Re: no initiative. I dunno still. I guess if I /had/ to sacrifice the die rolll at the beginning of combat, I'd just say everyone goes in reverse DEX order with the DM counting down.

"OK, who's got DEX 19....18.....17....ok, it's your turn....16....15....now it's the gnolls....14...."

But then you'd need the DEX stat for Monsters in Microlite20, and that means more creature feep when we're trying to get less.

Kensanata, the only problem with the initiative system you've suggested is that attacks will always alternate between the two groups (assuming equal group sizes). That means there's no wiggle room for tactical play between two characters who have turns next to each other.

Lemme give an example:

A party of four adventurers (Fighter, Magi, Rogue and Cleric) hear noises from behind a dungeon door. Feeling confident, they decide to burst in and surprise the occupants. The fling the door open and see four surprised goblins.

Round 1:
Rogue: I fire my crossbow (it hits Goblin 3)
Goblin 1:Hides behind his bed
Fighter: I charge!
Goblin 2: Hides behind his bed
Cleric: I fire my shortbow (misses)
Goblin 3: Roars in anger and charges the door
Magi: I toss in a magic missile. Kills Goblin 3
Goblin 4: Hides behind his bed

That should have been a surprise attack, but three of the goblins managed to hide just fine, and only silly Goblin 3 (RIP) was downed. 

If the players had rolled initiative, I'd have given them +2 to the roll for surprise meaning their turns are likely to be frontloaded compared to the Goblins. It would probably go something like this:

Round 1:
Rogue: I fire my crossbow (it hits Goblin 3)
Cleric: I fire my shortbow at the same Goblin (Hit, kills him)
Fighter: I charge!
Goblin 1:Hides behind his bed
Magi: I toss in a magic missile. Kills Goblin 2
Goblin 4: Hides behind his bed, craps his pants

The Rogue and Cleric could target the same Goblin to bring him down and the Goblins are in a much weaker position as a result of the surprise attack. Especially Goblins 2 and 3.

Under Kensanata's system, the difference between surprise and no surprise is that one party memeber gets the first attack.

I still dunno. Convince me some more


----------



## Ry

I thought what Kensanata was thinking was:

Rogue: Fire crossbow
Cleric: Fire crossbow
Fighter: Charge
Mage: Magic Missile
<Goblins go>


----------



## jezter6

I've played D&D off and on since the late 80s, and rycanada states it exactly how we played it all the way up to 3e. We used a simple d10 roll, PCs vs bad guys, winner got to go first. It stayed that way the duration of the combat. Anyone who joined the combat late automatically went last.

However, we didn't assume that it was 'everything happens at once.' If you killed the figther before his turn, he was dead. It was very easy to gang up and interrupt. Then again, we never used maps or minis and the DM just fudged positions/ranges. If I were to do it all over again, I would do it the same way, just assuming that the fighter died at the end of the round, and got his attacks this round.

That's one of the reasons I don't like cyclic initiative. It sort of assumes that everyone is waiting around for each other to do their action until thir turn, which doesn't happen.


----------



## greywulf

So the entire group would go first? Wow! What if the bad guys got to go first (say, they get surprise)? That could chew right through a party in just one round, surely. Likewise if the good guys went first. In a lot of combats I've played through, the bad guys wouldn't even get a hit in the first round of combat. One fireball, then the rest of the party mops up, and it's over. 

I'd love to be convinced on this one, and whatever comes up will go in the Macropedia regardless, but I still don't see it as an improvement over rolling initiative at the start of combat. The only system I've seen which improves on that was HERO with it's strict 12-Phase system. Now that's a thing of beauty.

I just checked, and combat in Classic Traveller was supposed to be simultaneous (with the possibility of surprise rounds). I don't remember how we played it - I wasn't DM - but that does tickle a memory. The way that worked was:

1. Both sides roll for surprise. If one side gets surprise then they get a free round. Surprise is maintained provided nothing is done to raise the alarm. Silenced weapons, silent attacks and no screams could keep one side unaware they are being attacked at all
2. When surprise is broken, combat is resolved simulteneously
3. Each combatant declares actions and resolves them
4. Any dead are removed from play at the end of the round

Y'know, it might just work..........

As an aside - in core D&D, we use Reflex save as the Initiative modifier rather than just DEX (the Improved Initiative feat still adds +4 to initiative however). This means a Rogue will likely always have the edge in combat to can get in position for the Sneak attacks, and being able to react in combat improves with experience for all characters, just as it should be.

As written in D&D, a DEX 18 1st level Wizard has the same chance to go first as a 20th level DEX 18 Rogue. I just don't see it myself, hence the change.


----------



## jezter6

Well, we were young and stupid. But then again, it was a fun role playing game and not a full on tactical battle. No squares, no grid, no minis, no map. Just the DM saying - you bust in the door and the goblins are about 30' off to your left. There were no movement squares either...you could either run up and engage in melee, or not - depending on if it seemed like your max move would allow it be that way. Instead of counting squares, you just said 'I stay out of crossbow range of the kobold while charging the evil wizard.' It worked back then, we just accepted it and pictured it in our minds.


----------



## greywulf

Ain't nothing wrong with that 

And we still don't use minitaures, battlegrids and all that crap. So I guess we're still young and stupid. In our minds, at least!


----------



## jezter6

I guess as a follow up - yes, one group could completely decimate the other group if that was the case. The DM played the bad guys pretty fair - they would gang up a little, but try to spread out the damage fairly, or he'd just roll for random targets. But, if everyone got to go in the round, no matter what the initiative, it doesn't much matter. Sure, the PC's go first and all attack the fighter...the fighter STILL gets his attack with the bad guys, he just drops dead at the end of the round. Then again, we weren't much in the way of tactical back then. Line good guys vs bad guys - everyone attacks until death.


----------



## greywulf

Jezter, while you're here - what's the chances of you posting a review of Microlite20 here on ENWorld? Please? Pretty please? Go on go on go on go on go on. You know you want to.

Please?


----------



## Pilsnerquest

In Microlite20 does the monsters HD reflect its base attack bonus? If a critter is HD 5 its base attack is at +5 (not including STR bonuses, etc.) right?

Also, how do monsters make saving throws if we don't know their stats? Or do they not receive any stat bonus, just a d20+HD?


Pilsnerquest


----------



## greywulf

Pilsnerquest said:
			
		

> In Microlite20 does the monsters HD reflect its base attack bonus? If a critter is HD 5 its base attack is at +5 (not including STR bonuses, etc.) right?
> 
> Also, how do monsters make saving throws if we don't know their stats? Or do they not receive any stat bonus, just a d20+HD?




Make up the stats on the spot, and add the bonus to the HD to get the to-hit and saves.

For example, if you've got a 5HD critter and he's strong, then give him a +3 to-hit for a total of +8 - he's STR16. Another critter of the same race might be agile but not as tough, so he's STR 14, DEX 16 (say), so she would have +7 to-hit, but a higher AC. 

Same logic goes for skills - all critters get Know, Sub, Comm and Phys equal to their HD, +3 (if it's intelligent) to one of them.

So that agile 5HD critter above might have the +3 on Sub meaning their total Sub is +8. She'd be able to Sneak up on you using Sub+DEX = +11. 

For speed, use a floating +2. Assume strong creatures are STR 14, agile ones are DEX 14 and clever ones are MIND 14. That gives them skills = to HD+2 with an additional +3 in one.

Hope that helps!


----------



## jezter6

I have not yet had the experience to fully delve into m20, but I would certainly do it if I had. I am more interested in becoming a bigger part of m20, which would make a review a bit jaded.


----------



## greywulf

jezter6 said:
			
		

> I have not yet had the experience to fully delve into m20, but I would certainly do it if I had. I am more interested in becoming a bigger part of m20, which would make a review a bit jaded.




Darn. Curse you reviewers with a conscience!

I'm glad to have you on board too, Jezter


----------



## kensanata

*Initiative*



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> So the entire group would go first? Wow! What if the bad guys got to go first (say, they get surprise)? That could chew right through a party in just one round, surely. Likewise if the good guys went first. In a lot of combats I've played through, the bad guys wouldn't even get a hit in the first round of combat. One fireball, then the rest of the party mops up, and it's over.




That's how it is! If your fireball gets in first, then that's what I call a SURPRISE!!

Harr harr harr…

Anyway, we've been basically playing it like that, with sides alternating, and some confusion arising now and then. I'll try to make it "official" and playtest it more thoroughly next time.

And here I was thinking that my system was too simple because it was not possible for the surprising side to get two attacks in a row! (Surprise, party gets to attack, roll initiative and win, party gets to attack again!) I must have misunderstood a lot of thinkgs in AD&D 2nd ed and I'm still trying to recover... Hehe.

Using the DEX bonus was rare because it meant individual init rolls, and since I'd forget the numbers as soon as they were called out, I never remembered whose turn it was.


----------



## kensanata

Pilsnerquest said:
			
		

> In Microlite20 does the monsters HD reflect its base attack bonus?




To be honest, I just use the melee attack bonus from the d20 source I get them from. I rarely make up monsters myself. I'd probably just use HD myself, if I had to. It's probably close enough. No making up of stats on the spot. Having to look up HD on the spot is enough work for the DM already!


----------



## jezter6

kensanata said:
			
		

> That's how it is! If your fireball gets in first, then that's what I call a SURPRISE!!
> 
> Harr harr harr…
> 
> Anyway, we've been basically playing it like that, with sides alternating, and some confusion arising now and then. I'll try to make it "official" and playtest it more thoroughly next time.
> 
> And here I was thinking that my system was too simple because it was not possible for the surprising side to get two attacks in a row! (Surprise, party gets to attack, roll initiative and win, party gets to attack again!) I must have misunderstood a lot of thinkgs in AD&D 2nd ed and I'm still trying to recover... Hehe.
> 
> Using the DEX bonus was rare because it meant individual init rolls, and since I'd forget the numbers as soon as they were called out, I never remembered whose turn it was.




Definately some good logic there. Maybe instead of rolling init, the surprising side auto-gets initiative for the first round (or at least a healthy bonus to init to give them a better shot at going twice). If you don't get to go twice in a row, it's really not surprise at all, unless you use special rules that you lose DEX to AC during surprise rounds. Otherwise, it's just a regular round where they go first, then the other party goes - in your head you think that it's round 2, when it's still the back half of round 1. In all reality, after the first round, if you use a system where it's just you go, we go, then it doesn't really matter who went 'first' as rounds will tend to just blur together. The whole concept of rounds (IMHO) is just way to mentally compute a logical order to what is in reality an illogical nightmare of swinging, parrying, and fireball blasting. Heck, I find going last to be more interesting.

Plus, say you get +2 AC until your next action...would you WANT to win init and go first and lose your bonus while the enemy beats on you, or let all the guys attack you while your bonus is good THEN go last and lose your bonus when you're done?


----------



## Ry

When I've done it, the whole group going first or last went well - especially when the players were a very cohesive group.  Think of movies where a squad of commandos moves through an area.  They know each other well enough that just seeing the first one start to duck is a warning to the rest.  When they're surprised, they're all surprised - and it's a very, very bad day.


----------



## jezter6

Maybe I'd consider letting each roll for surprise, allowing a reflex action for those that make it, and the rest of those that failed are still stuck waiting.

That makes for some cinematic coolness when the weaker PC fails surprise, and the quicker PC has to jump in front/mow down the bad guy before he kills the weak one.
'


----------



## Bretbo

greywulf said:
			
		

> Ok, you asked for it. Here's Big Shiny version 0.1 (148k pdf) AKA "I told you it was empty".




OK, love the "Big Shiny PDF", wulf!  Thought I might take a stab at stating up the SRD Monsters.  Have a few questions:

How should we stat monsters that come with stats for various sizes?  Give the "smallest" and let the GM use Monster Adjustment to advance them?  That doesn't seem like the best way, give the stats for a wyrmling Gold Dragon just doesn't seem to capture the beast as it should be listed.

What about the description.  Should we use the SRD listed one or make up my own?

For F.Y.I., here are some examples of what I've got so far written exactly like they are in the SRD:

*CENTAUR*

_HD4d8+8 (26 hp), AC14, By Weapon +7 melee/+5 ranged _ 

A centaur is as big as a heavy horse, but much taller and slightly heavier. A centaur is about 7 feet tall and weighs about 2,100 pounds.

*CHIMERA*

_HD9d10+27 (76 hp), AC19, Natural +12 melee (2d6+4), Breath Weapon (type by color of dragon head, once every 1d4 rounds, deals 3d8 damage, and DC 17 Phys + DEX save for half damage)_

A chimera is about 5 feet tall at the shoulder, nearly 10 feet long, and weighs about 4,000 pounds. A chimera’s dragon head might be black, blue, green, red, or white.

*COCKATRICE*

_HD5d10 (27 hp), AC14, Natural +9 melee (1d4–2 plus petrification, DC 12 Phys + STR save)_

A male cockatrice has wattles and a comb, just like a rooster. Females, much rarer than males, differ only in that they have no wattles or comb. A cockatrice weighs about 25 pounds.


----------



## kensanata

*Surprise*



			
				jezter6 said:
			
		

> If you don't get to go twice in a row, it's really not surprise at all, unless you use special rules that you lose DEX to AC during surprise rounds.




Good point. How about this new proposal: "Everyone can do one thing each turn; move, attack, cast a spell, etc. Both groups roll 1d20 + highest DEX bonus to see who goes first. Alternate between both groups from then on. When surprising your enemies, you get an extra round before regular combat starts."


----------



## greywulf

Bretbo said:
			
		

> How should we stat monsters that come with stats for various sizes?  Give the "smallest" and let the GM use Monster Adjustment to advance them?  That doesn't seem like the best way, give the stats for a wyrmling Gold Dragon just doesn't seem to capture the beast as it should be listed.
> 
> What about the description.  Should we use the SRD listed one or make up my own?




Bretbo, thanks for the feeback. Your monsters look just fine to me; keep the stats to a minimum and concentrate on the descriptive text. That works best 

When it comes to monsters of varying sizes/ages, follow this rule: *stat what you need*. If you want a dragon the size of a large horse, then that sounds about 5HD to me, a young whelp of a thing out to cause trouble with some farmer's sheep. Twice the size makes it 10HD, and so on. Get a feel for the HD based on what you need for the adventure. You might end up with something at great variance to the SRD but that doesn't matter so long as you're having fun and it works for you. 

I'd stat that Dragon with good STR and DEX, but average MIND. It's not dumb, not it's none too start either.

Something like this maybe:
Whelp Dragon, 5HD (40hp), AC17, Bite +9, 1d8+4 or Breath 3d6, DC15 phys+DEX for half.

I'll guarantee that's not like any Dragon in the SRD, but it's good enough for a game and an appropriate challenge for a low-level party facing their first Dragon. Until mummy comes along, of course 

Microlite20 is all about making the decisions simple so you can make them without resorting to some big rule book. 

Ok, it's all about making the decisions simple, and having fun.

No, it's all about making the decisions simple, and having fun and keeping the rules as small as possible.

Ha! No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!


----------



## WSmith

I don't have time to elaborate on the initiative thingy right now. But I will. Something similar to rolling a tie under old D&D is what comes to my mind. Pretty much everyone rolls for combat, and all damage and effects are applied to all foes. Surprise is a full round unopposed.


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## Ry

*Spanish Inquisition*

HD3d8 (13 hp), AC15, Attack (Comfy Chair 1d2-2), Fear DC 10 Know + MIND save,  Always gets surprise (Always wastes surprise round attempting to cause fear).  Ruthless Efficiency (Awe effect DC 5) and an almost fanatical devotion to the pope (as Bless, but only 1 in 6 chance of success.  Otherwise, they'll come in again.)


----------



## greywulf

Lol!

I didn't expect that


----------



## kensanata

I think I'm going to retract my last proposal which had one unopposed round for the surprising side. When it happened to them, my players always hated it and started arguing why it was practically impossible to be surprised right now. In order to cut down on non-quality-time spent at the table, I think going without surprise is better. Instead, to still allow for gruesome ambushing, I will rule that the surprising side goes first, and if the other side is unprepared, they'll be spending their first round readying their weapons, so that if the players actually spent time and creative energy in setting up an ambush, they will get two attacks in a row.


----------



## Ry

*Very Simple Initiative:*

When combat begins, each side rolls for who goes first.  The side that wins goes first.  Combat then alternates between sides.  

If one side is surprised, the side with the advantage doesn't have to roll initiative - they automatically go first.  They also get +4 to any actions they take before their enemy's turn.  If individuals on the "surprised" side aren't surprised, then the enemy does not get the +4 benefit against those characters.  Combat then alternates between sides.

_I like this rule because I find it plays nicer to have Player-player-player-DM, player-player-player DM.  At the table you aren't interrupting players as the "party" tries to do something cool._


----------



## jezter6

I don't remember back in previous posts, but has anyone checked the balance of the classes? Seems like since everyone gets the same relative BAB (level) except the fighter which only gets +5 more over 20 levels, and same hit points, is there a reason NOT to be a wizard outside the ability to wear armor?


Edit:  Changed to 20 levels. I originally said over 2 levels...


----------



## Pilsnerquest

> I don't remember back in previous posts, but has anyone checked the balance of the classes? Seems like since everyone gets the same relative BAB (level) except the fighter which only gets +5 more over 2 levels, and same hit points, is there a reason NOT to be a wizard outside the ability to wear armor?




Well, any GM worth his/her salt isn't going to let, I mean have, a player reach anywhere near 20th level. 

bwah hah ha...

...that is a good point though.

Pilsnerquest


----------



## jezter6

Right. So if you're not going to get near 20th level, and the wizard has the same bab (within +2) of the fighter...why be the fighter?

I don't see the benefit at all. At least in full d20 you get lots of feats AND the full BAB progression to keep pace with the wizard.

Considering that AC and such don't change from d20 to m20 - the wizard can become a powerful front line fighter, possibly moreso than that fighter with an armor spell and something like a 'greater magic weapon' type spell.


----------



## Pilsnerquest

I suppose the loss of hit points for casting the buffs would be the main balancing factor. How many hit points would a mage lose for keeping up a higher AC and attack?


Pilsnerquest


----------



## Gentlegamer

greywulf said:
			
		

> Lol!
> 
> I didn't expect that



NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!


----------



## Ry

I am going to start another thread about this, but here's my wicked-cool setting idea that I'd love to see an m20-oid handle.  Think of an intrigue-filled wild west set a thousand years after victorian steampunk (not severe magic chaos like eberron's last war).  

*I'm a firm believer that PC classes tell the story best:*

*Gunslinger*
(Like a Ranger, no animal companions, must go ranged combat).  Part of a brotherhood that has tremendous respect but very little political power.  Code binds the gunslingers (i.e., must accept duels) but it's not alignment-based, so gunslingers can be on opposing sides of all sorts of conflicts.  Code includes being impartial and sticking to the terms of a bargain.  Non-gunslingers with guns are hunted down by the gunslingers, as are major violators of the code.  Gunslingers must aid each other when someone breaks the terms of a gunslinger's contract.  No weapons may be drawn in the presence of a gunsmith (gunsmiths are the non-combatant judges / craftsmen / trainers of the order).

*Shaman*
Setting's spirits are all incorporeal and unseen, but run the gamut from fickle tricksters to ancestor ghosts to nature spirits.  There are also demons in the world, but they're your enemies.

*Advocate*
(Ninja-like abilities, esp. momentary invisibility and lethal strikes) Played as trained members of Houses, which are like crime families in a world with no police to get in the way.  Imagine if rather than the Cavalry showing up, all you could hope for in the wild west was the arrival of the currently dominant local crime family.  They are the political powers of the setting.  These Houses span the setting - so if you make enemies of a House in one place, you've got enemies in lots of places.  Houses know better than to try to acquire firearms, and they know well enough to hire Gunslingers when necessary.  Advocates' secret fighitng style, including their ability to move undetected and make deadly strikes is passed from one generation to the next in a kind of assassin's apprenticeship.  Advocates reach the highest levels of power within their Houses, although Advocates don't reveal that they are anything more than other gentlemen belonging to their Houses unless they have to.

*Warlock*
(somewhere between the concepts of warlock and binder in D&D)  You made the deal, maybe under duress, or maybe for good reasons.  Now you get the benefits.  There are many demons in the world, and they can be used... but they can use you too.  What's important, though, is that you stay alive, because you're not looking forward to what's waiting for you on the other side.

*Tetsujin (metal men)*
Fighters are tetsujin, and tetsujin are fighters.  Played largely as-is (using stats for Warforged or Ironborn or whatever).  They are found in some ancient ruins, and about a hundred years ago someone figured out how to wake them up.  They don't know who they are, they don't know how they were made.  Often this means they can be used by others, and they're sought after by the Houses.

These options are designed to provide cool character options but also require some kind of conflict to be built into each character.

Characters start at level 3 and cap at level 10, after which they gain feats only.  Since each class has a very specific "order" or cultural context, no multiclassing.  However, characters besides Fighters could become Warlocks if they make a pact and do an hour long ritual involving the consent and agreement of an actual demon, losing all other abilities in exchange for a Warlock's abilities.

Imagine this as a dusky setting, with ruined castles covered by vines found in the wilderness in a world that has not seen a "nation" in a thousand years.  The great conflicts have played themselves out, and while the scars have healed, this is not an age of rebirth.  Small towns and large towns are the rule throughout the setting.  Centres of power are fortresses.  Characters are humans only except for fighters (see below).  Alignment is not used, magic is strange, and resurrection is impossible.  

NPCs have NPC classes.

Monsters in the setting are the result of demons messing with the natural environment - which is why they pop up near peaceful settlements.  Magic items are rare, and are either from demons, relics of the people who built the Warforged, or both.  Any evil outsider is a candidate for a demon, are any intelligent evil monsters.


----------



## jezter6

That sounds like quite an interesting setting you have there. Reminds me a little of Steampunk Musha, mixed with deadlands.


----------



## Ry

In tone I think it will end up being pretty close to Stephen King's Dark Tower series (worth the read, at least until I stopped halfway though Wizard and Glass).  I may add some kind of Telekinetic / Seer Psion (invisible effects only) with the moral trappings of Arcana Unearthed's Runechildren.


----------



## greywulf

Pilsnerquest said:
			
		

> I suppose the loss of hit points for casting the buffs would be the main balancing factor. How many hit points would a mage lose for keeping up a higher AC and attack?




Exactly right. The Magi and Cleric's balancing factor is the HP cost for casting spells. Magic takes it's toll on mortal frames!

Ry, the settig sounds great!

In m20 terms, I'd suggest the following:

Gunslinger: Fighter, with a Masterwork gun. If they use light armour, give them the ability to use Track (Sub+MIND) at +1 or somesuch
Shaman: Cleric, possible using 4x5 magic system to reflect their spirit's specialities
Advocate: Rogue
Tetsujin: Fighter
Warlock: Magi, again, 4x5 or even Open Ended Magic

Does that make sense?

I last night's game in Chicago 300 years in the future. The city is in post-apocalypse ruin and the adventurers were hunting for the ruins of the old Chicago Library. They used the Open Ended Magic System for the Magi and he loved it, though intentionally kept things on a tight rein. The OEMS is very easy to abuse we found! Also, goblins in cars rock, bigtime. 

More on that another time though!


----------



## Ry

Need to hear about abuse, since my glyphs are pretty close to OEMS anyway.


----------



## greywulf

A clever player can do literally anything in the OEMS which is good as if reflects the reality-warping nature of magic, but can easily trash a game.

In one encounter a bridge into a town was being held by Geneskins (big green mutated humans with ugly dental work - orcs, in other words). The New God (Magi) caused a crack in the keystone which brought down the entire bridge, orcs and all. Simple spell, DC10+range. Brilliant.

Later on he sets fire to to the library with a wave of his hands, the rest of the party fleeing the scene with the precious book in their hands. 

After the game ended Mark said that he kept having to stop himself casting spells to solve every problem. Locked door - no problem. Orc horde? No problem. Car wouldn't start? no problem. That cost of DC +2 for each spell cast meant balancing the needs of _now_ with ending up with a really high DC in the future when you need the magic to work against the BBEG. We agreed there's no way we'd allow more than one Magi using the Open Ended Magic System in a party. The temptation to have one cast spells in the morning then the other later in the day when the other's DC is maxed out is too great. OEMS Magi rock a little too much!

Oh, and the book they were after in this post-apocalypse world of mutant horror? 

The last remaining copy of the Da Vinci Code. What else?


----------



## kensanata

*Magic*

Maybe it would be worth investing magic with some kind of karma system. A crack in the floor is not the same as a crack in a supporting pillar of a stone bridge with 100 orcs on it. Now in a scenario where the magicians are the new Immortals striving for Godhood, I think you'd need to formulate it as a basic law of the universe. Something like these C.S. Lewis laws "from the dawn of time".

I guess it also goes to show that the HP drain is "better" than the DC increase...


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## greywulf

True. I'm sure this is a campaign setting we're going to revisit again (pardon the tautology). As the New Gods are basically finding and deciding their Holy portfolio as they go along, Tordeluous Miskahen could well end up being the God of Falling Masonry. Hey, stranger things have happened.

I was thinking of Rob McKeena (the Rain God from Douglas Adams' "So Long and Thanks for All the Fish" where the rain fell on him because he was their God) while coming up with the idea for the New Gods, with a little bit of Neil Gaiman throw in for good measure too. Imagine a New God (in other words, a Magi using OEMS) who ended up with the portfolio for Springtime flowers because he's cast a lot of nature-related magic. Everywhere he walked, flowers sprouted beneath his feet. Lovely to look at, but darned annoying if you're being tracked by an assassin.

Hmmmmm. I guess Tordeluous had better steer clear of large walls in future........


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## Ry

'wulf, could my glyphs be used the same way, or no?


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## kensanata

*Limits of the Open Magic System*



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> I was thinking of Rob McKeena (the Rain God from Douglas Adams' "So Long and Thanks for All the Fish" where the rain fell on him because he was their God)




That's an awesome explanation for the kind of karma system I had in mind; and it perfectly fits your scenario. Maybe a general sentence of some sort (with what you said as an example) could be added to the wiki page to help players and game master get a feel for it?


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## greywulf

Ry, I'm sure they could 

Kensanata, I'm going to do a full write up of the campaign setting soon (lest I forget too) so I'll make sure there's examples in there and a link to it from the OEMS page.


----------



## kensanata

*Skills, Balance*

Last session was the first time we really used a single skill other than subterfuge. My greedy rogue was questioning a client of an evil temple about the priests and since I judged the client to be unwilling, I had the rogue roll opposed communication skill checks to keep him talking. It worked, and my player was happy. Another player commented that it was interesting to see how evil characters talked to each other:
– What were you doing in there?
– None of your business!
– Let's hear it!
– Go away!
– Not until you tell me, you sneak!
– I bought what everybody bought in there, you cur! And you know it just as well as I do!
– Well, what was it!?
– A curse, you bastard!
– A curson upon who?
– My neighbour, if you need to know.

The others chime in: Let him go!

– How many people inside the temple?
– Let me go you bastard!
– How many!?
– Three, and now piss off!!

It was fun, but I'm still wondering. Do we really need four skills or are the other two only there for aesthetic reasons? We might as well just use level/HD for skill rolls and give rogues a +3 (+4?) when it involves subterfuge.

Or, to put it differently: Where have you used physical, communication, and knowledge skills?


----------



## kensanata

*High Level Rogues and Fighters*

My players started arguing against fighter power at the beginning of the last session, as I wrote previously. The discussion continues with them being unhappy about being unable to add a DEX bonus to their bow damage rolls. (There's no bonus to bow damage rolls in D&D either, so I remained firm.) Anyway, the discussion then returned to balance issues once again, and we talked about imaginary level 20 fighters and rogues. To calm them, I said that a fighter would use +5 to hit and damage with his bow, where as a sneaking rogue would do +0 to hit and +24 to damage with his bow… Quite an assassin!

It seems to me that rogues will be very powerful at upper levels. Is nobody afraid of fighters being too weak in the later part of the game? Did anybody do any high-level playtesting?


----------



## jezter6

I think that goes right along with my post above about why anyone would even want to play a fighter type. Maybe some sort of balancing (although larger file size) would be to have a BAB progression for each class. 

Phys - Climb, Jump, Swim
Communication - Gather info, basic interrogation

I think subterfuge might be too broad in your game. Or maybe certain circumstances change the skill. You want to beat a confession out of him - that's Phys. You want to question him - communication. You want to bluff him into thinking you're cool and he'll open up his secret plan - subterfuge.


----------



## eyebeams

rycanada said:
			
		

> I am going to start another thread about this, but here's my wicked-cool setting idea that I'd love to see an m20-oid handle.  Think of an intrigue-filled wild west set a thousand years after victorian steampunk (not severe magic chaos like eberron's last war).




*I'm a firm believer that PC classes tell the story best:*

I can do these guys as Quick20 with Advanced Characters turned on:



> *Gunslinger*
> (Like a Ranger, no animal companions, must go ranged combat).  Part of a brotherhood that has tremendous respect but very little political power.  Code binds the gunslingers (i.e., must accept duels) but it's not alignment-based, so gunslingers can be on opposing sides of all sorts of conflicts.  Code includes being impartial and sticking to the terms of a bargain.  Non-gunslingers with guns are hunted down by the gunslingers, as are major violators of the code.  Gunslingers must aid each other when someone breaks the terms of a gunslinger's contract.  No weapons may be drawn in the presence of a gunsmith (gunsmiths are the non-combatant judges / craftsmen / trainers of the order).




Take double Ranged Combat picks at each level (or Ranged Combat/Athletics) and take level advancement bonuses in particular firearms types. These characters' codes are represented by taking on a Way.



> *Shaman*
> Setting's spirits are all incorporeal and unseen, but run the gamut from fickle tricksters to ancestor ghosts to nature spirits.  There are also demons in the world, but they're your enemies.




Level picks are Magic/Magic or Magic/Expertise. Uses Summon/Animate spells.



> *Advocate*
> (Ninja-like abilities, esp. momentary invisibility and lethal strikes) Played as trained members of Houses, which are like crime families in a world with no police to get in the way.  Imagine if rather than the Cavalry showing up, all you could hope for in the wild west was the arrival of the currently dominant local crime family.  They are the political powers of the setting.  These Houses span the setting - so if you make enemies of a House in one place, you've got enemies in lots of places.  Houses know better than to try to acquire firearms, and they know well enough to hire Gunslingers when necessary.  Advocates' secret fighitng style, including their ability to move undetected and make deadly strikes is passed from one generation to the next in a kind of assassin's apprenticeship.  Advocates reach the highest levels of power within their Houses, although Advocates don't reveal that they are anything more than other gentlemen belonging to their Houses unless they have to.




Athletics/Martial Arts picks, with a few alternate picks for Magic.



> *Warlock*
> (somewhere between the concepts of warlock and binder in D&D)  You made the deal, maybe under duress, or maybe for good reasons.  Now you get the benefits.  There are many demons in the world, and they can be used... but they can use you too.  What's important, though, is that you stay alive, because you're not looking forward to what's waiting for you on the other side.




Magic/Magic or Magic/Socialize. Knows Summon/Animate as well.



> *Tetsujin (metal men)*
> Fighters are tetsujin, and tetsujin are fighters.  Played largely as-is (using stats for Warforged or Ironborn or whatever).  They are found in some ancient ruins, and about a hundred years ago someone figured out how to wake them up.  They don't know who they are, they don't know how they were made.  Often this means they can be used by others, and they're sought after by the Houses.




Martial Arts/Ranged applied to a fantastic peoples template with the following traits:

+1 Might, -1 Will
Unnatural Anatomy (ignores all wound effects except for death)
+2 to Fort damage saves

Otherwise, you'd want to use the expanded initiative/contests of will rules from Asiatic Adventures (for gunfights) and the firearms rules from Modern Adventures, along with maybe bannermen/mook rules, but not the extraordinary movement rules.

Incidentally, I'd love to get a Quick20 setting together sometime -- I'd even pay money for it . . .


----------



## Larcen

Hya Greywulf.  Fantastic work you have done here with M20!  It looks to be pretty much what I was looking for when I dropped out of my weekly 3.5 session.  I was simply tired of fighting with rules (and the rules-lawyers that came with them) instead of fighting in-game challenges. 

I like your core rules very much but since you seem to be open to suggestions and questions, here are some of mine:

~~~~~~~~~~

1)  Redundant base Stats:  You have the opportunity here to do away with a pet peeve lots of people have with D&D.  Your system would be perfection if it did away with the needless double stats for each ability score.  Why keep track of DEX 18 (+4), when all you really want is that +4 on your sheet?  I think the base scores should be dropped once they are generated.  All bonuses to the abilities in the rules should then be divided in half.  Dwarves get a +1 to STR for instance.  Simple and clean.  (Note: keep the 4d6 method for generation though for the strong bell curve it creates)

2)  MIND stat:  This stat should continue to be called INT I think.  If not for maintaining the original D&D flavor alone, then because the 4 letter "MIND" irks me next to "STR" and "DEX".    

3)  Missing CHA score:  I thought about it and thought about it, and I think there really is this big hole without a Charisma score.  It really is a huge stat in most campaigns (esp. heroic fantasy games) and their would be a void without it.  CHA would also serve to round out all the classes, each having their own prime stat.  Skills would also be rounded out, each having it's own prime stat as well.  Character classes can then be viewed as training in each of the areas of natural talent that a person can be born with.  Those who match their natural talents with their chosen professional will do best.  An intelligent mage or a dexterous rogue for instance.  Clerics are always trying to convince people to join their religion anyway, what better cleric would their be then than a charismatic one? So having the full four stats (Str, Dex, Int, Cha) would make the four core classes, and the skill system, make more sense I think and seem more universal.

4) No negative bonuses:  To make things even more simple, why not lose negative stats bonuses?   The negative bonuses are based on a arbitrary human average anyway. Who says humans are always the average?  How about having starting stats range from 1 to 10 (with racial bonuses), by not subtract that initial 10?   To keep things balanced all DC's can then be bumped up by +5.  The players would then only have to add the revelent stats straight from their PC sheets to each roll.  No chance of plus this, minus that.

5) Magic Saves:   I am not sure if it feels right that all magic saves are MIND +level.   I think one of the skills should come into play based on the spell affect itself.  The GM can decide which skill is most relevent if its not written in the spell description.  In this respect dodging a fireball is not all that different than dodging a fallen rock for instance.  Each spell will then be more unique, and attack spell selection can be chosen based on it's intended target's perceived weaknesses.

6)  Class based HP dice:  This is regarding the HP level bonus is +1d6 rule. What  was the reasoning for not making the dice type based on class?  Surely its not that complicated an addition to the rules.  I have seen enough people mention that fighters are somewhat nuked with the M20 rules.  Giving them a d10 again might make lots of fighters happy.   And another "subpar" class, the rogue, can then get a D8 for instance.  I have always viewed fighters as the brute force warriors and rogues as swashbuckling finese types anyway.  Bumpin up a rogue's HD makes will make them more viable in combat.  So:  Fighter=d10, Rogue=d8, Cleric=d6, Mage=d6.  The later two being spell casters mostly anyway.

7) Size based HP dice:    This one is just a thought.  How about the bonus dice type being based on the creatures size?  1d4 for small, 1d6 for med, 1d8 for large, etc.  Since most PC's are medium, the 1d6 already fits.  Halfings might complain however.   

8) Level advancement:  How does the EL rules as they stand take into consideration the party's size?  8 PCs taking on 8 NPCs should get less experience than 2 PCs in the same situation I think.  Does the EL the GM assigns to each encounter already take party size into account then? 

Sorry if any of this has been talked to death already in this rather lengthy thread.  I have not read all of it yet.   Thanks again for the cool system and keep up the great work.


----------



## Ry

Larcen said:
			
		

> 1)  Redundant base Stats
> 2)  MIND stat should be INT
> 3)  Missing CHA score
> 4) No negative bonuses
> 5) Magic Saves
> 6)  Class based HP dice
> 7) Size based HP dice
> 8) Level advancement




1 - Seconded (although I understand that the reason is 1E compatibility)
2 - Seconded
3 - I'd recommend WIL for that stat, rather than CHA, especially since it's such a cleric thing to be able to use their force of will to turn undead or call on the gods.  It's also a great social stat (social confrontations being a test of wills, commanding troops or intimidating people is also will, and fooling them is more INT+communicate vs. INT+communicate).  The other thing you get is now you have each of the big deal saves with a clear connection to it:  STR for Fort, DEX for Reflex, and WIL for Will.  Anyone who says "where's INT's save?" can add one (I use it, for "trickery" spells rather than mind control).  But when it comes to social stuff, I really think there's better ways to handle charisma.
4 - Disagree - too big of a jump from what's out there.  
5 - Agree, see what I say about STR, DEX, INT, and WIL saves (not "saves", but "Level+Stat")  I think it's generally a handy mechanic (Stat+Level vs. Target Number)
6 - Disagree - although I'd like it if it were 1d6+STR, then the burly characters get more hp regardless of their class.  
7 - Agree somewhat, I'd rather see a size-based modifier (like -1 small, +1 large) and keep to the 1d6 where possible.  PCs could use their STR modifier instead.
8 - No opinion.  My PCs level when I damn well say they level.


----------



## Larcen

Thanks for the quick responses, Rycanada.  As it is I can see a VERY neat system here with the slight additions mentioned above.  

Here is another cool way to view the 4 stats, including charisma (or WILL as you suggest):  

STR is your physical ability to influence external things.  
CHA is your mental ability to influence external things.   
DEX is your physical speed and nimbleness.  
INT is your mental speed and nimbleness.  

It all rounds out, two physical stats and two mental!

Edit:    I think I still prefer CHA (and not WILL for instance) for the same reason I prefer INT over MIND, old school flavor and familiarity.


----------



## jezter6

Larcen said:
			
		

> Hya Greywulf.  Fantastic work you have done here with M20!  It looks to be pretty much what I was looking for when I dropped out of my weekly 3.5 session.  I was simply tired of fighting with rules (and the rules-lawyers that came with them) instead of fighting in-game challenges.
> 
> I like your core rules very much but since you seem to be open to suggestions and questions, here are some of mine:
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> 1)  Redundant base Stats:  You have the opportunity here to do away with a pet peeve lots of people have with D&D.  Your system would be perfection if it did away with the needless double stats for each ability score.  Why keep track of DEX 18 (+4), when all you really want is that +4 on your sheet?  I think the base scores should be dropped once they are generated.  All bonuses to the abilities in the rules should then be divided in half.  Dwarves get a +1 to STR for instance.  Simple and clean.  (Note: keep the 4d6 method for generation though for the strong bell curve it creates)




I agree here. There's no reason to keep the numbers...they're just there to generate the stat bonus anyways. A +1 is a +1, if it's 11, 12, 13, 26, 248, whatever the number used to generate what a +1 means.



			
				Larcen said:
			
		

> 2)  MIND stat:  This stat should continue to be called INT I think.  If not for maintaining the original D&D flavor alone, then because the 4 letter "MIND" irks me next to "STR" and "DEX".




Hehe...shorten it to MIN then. It's not just INT, it's WIS, WILL, CHA, and just about everything else.



			
				Larcen said:
			
		

> 3)  Missing CHA score:  I thought about it and thought about it, and I think there really is this big hole without a Charisma score.  It really is a huge stat in most campaigns (esp. heroic fantasy games) and their would be a void without it.  CHA would also serve to round out all the classes, each having their own prime stat.  Skills would also be rounded out, each having it's own prime stat as well.  Character classes can then be viewed as training in each of the areas of natural talent that a person can be born with.  Those who match their natural talents with their chosen professional will do best.  An intelligent mage or a dexterous rogue for instance.  So having the full four stats (Str, Dex, Int, Cha) would make the four core classes, and the skill system, make more sense I think and seem more universal.




I firmly believe there should be the exact number of skills as stats. When looking over the skills from d20, I came up with 4 or 5 skill groups, although use of a certain skill can fall between groups. While I like the short/sweet m20 system and chars, I'd like to see a little better way of differentiating characters. Maybe the ability to take a -1 to say 2 specific subskills to gain a +1 to another specific subskill (ie: -1 forgery, -1 disguise, +1 bluff)


			
				Larcen said:
			
		

> 4) No negative bonuses:  To make things even more simple, why not lose negative stats bonuses?   The negative bonuses are based on a arbitrary human average anyway. Who says humans are always the average?  How about having starting stats range from 1 to 10 (with racial bonuses), by not subtract that initial 10?   To keep things balanced all DC's can then be bumped up by +5.  The players would then only have to add the revelent stats straight from their PC sheets to each roll.  No chance of plus this, minus that.
> 
> 5) Magic Saves:   I am not sure if it feels right that all magic saves are MIND +level.   I think one of the skills should come into play based on the spell affect itself.  The GM can decide which skill is most relevent if its not written in the spell description.  In this respect dodging a fireball is not all that different than dodging a fallen rock for instance.  Each spell will then be more unique, and attack spell selection can be chosen based on it's intended target's perceived weaknesses.




I'm not 100% up on C&C, but I think it ditched saves and you just use your appropriate stat modifier. I'm looking at buying it to see, but that makes more sense than having 1 stat to rule them all.



			
				Larcen said:
			
		

> 6)  Class based HP dice:  This is regarding the HP level bonus is +1d6 rule. What  was the reasoning for not making the dice type based on class?  Surely its not that complicated an addition to the rules.  I have seen enough people mention that fighters are somewhat nuked with the M20 rules.  Giving them a d10 again might make lots of fighters happy.   And another "subpar" class, the rogue, can then get a D8 for instance.  I have always viewed fighters as the brute force warriors and rogues as swashbuckling finese types anyway.  Bumpin up a rogue's HD makes will make them more viable in combat.  So:  Fighter=d10, Rogue=d8, Cleric=d6, Mage=d6.  The later two being spell casters mostly anyway.



Again, I agree. With everyone stuck at the same HP/level, there isn't much differentiation. In fact, since we're dropping front line melee guys to d6, I'm not sure they are able to face the same challenges over 10-20 levels that a d20 fighter can. If we're taking BAB, HP and such from d20 monsters, why does the fighter get dropped so bad. My guess is that since they are slightly weaker in HP, challenges get tougher and tougher at high levels (which I assume most people who play m20 don't do, but if you bring in the d20 players they will definately try).



			
				Larcen said:
			
		

> 7) Size based HP dice:    This one is just a thought.  How about the bonus dice type being based on the creatures size?  1d4 for small, 1d6 for med, 1d8 for large, etc.  Since most PC's are medium, the 1d6 already fits.  Halfings might complain however.
> 
> 8) Level advancement:  How does the EL rules as they stand take into consideration the party's size?  8 PCs taking on 8 NPCs should get less experience than 2 PCs in the same situation I think.  Does the EL the GM assigns to each encounter already take party size into account then?
> 
> Sorry if any of this has been talked to death already in this rather lengthy thread.  I have not read all of it yet.   Thanks again for the cool system and keep up the great work.




Yeah, it's a cool system and has spawned many neat subsystems. I think with all these small different systems coming out, cobbling together the best of each may produce a great little system...just wish everyone would work together instead of developing so many 95% similar systems.


----------



## Ry

To me, WIL says "your mental ability to influence external things." but I'm largely indifferent to which term m20 uses, were it to be included (a good addition in my opinion).


----------



## Larcen

jezter6 said:
			
		

> ... I think with all these small different systems coming out, cobbling together the best of each may produce a great little system...just wish everyone would work together
> instead of developing so many 95% similar systems.




It was not my intention to create another 95% system.  I thought what we were discussing here were ways to improve THIS system.  If this system is already "set in stone"  I was not aware, so sorry.

I really have high hopes for M20 and just want it to be the best that it can be.


----------



## Ry

I sort of had the impression that I came in too late in the game to have the kind of impact on m20 that's proportional to my suggestions above (otherwise I'd be happy to ditch Rank20).


----------



## jezter6

Larcen said:
			
		

> It was not my intention to create another 95% system.  I thought what we were discussing here were ways to improve THIS system.  If this system is already "set in stone"  I was not aware, so sorry.
> 
> I really have high hopes for M20 and just want it to be the best that it can be.




I didn't say you WERE creating another system. But thus far, I've seen 4 m20's out there. Not including Quick20 that seems to have been developed seperately. Each one has little minor differences that make it not the same, but it's based on the same engine.

What I'd like to see is just the very basics - compiled down into a single page. This page just covers the basic mechanic. Then toolkits and addons for each additional layer of rules complexity you want to add. It's almost like that, but there's a lot more 'core' rules than I'd like.

I'd like the ability to add/replace classes at will, with no necessary changes to the core rules. I'd like to plug modern rules in with no changes to the CORE.
I'd like to be able to add low/medium/high magic, each in it's own way to core without defeating the core mechanic.

This system (and it's clones) are very close. I'm going to try and do more work (and create yet ANOTHER clone to meet my needs), and will give suggestions/addons to m20 as they come.


----------



## Angel Tarragon

Any chance of compiling all of the pertinent info of this thread into a handy document for easy of searchability. I mean, this discussioin is great, but a bit unwieldly for searching purposes (24 pages   ).


----------



## jezter6

I think that's what the wiki is for in greywulf's sig...it has all the things that spring out of these discussions.


----------



## jmucchiello

Larcen said:
			
		

> 4) No negative bonuses:  To make things even more simple, why not lose negative stats bonuses?   The negative bonuses are based on a arbitrary human average anyway. Who says humans are always the average?  How about having starting stats range from 1 to 10 (with racial bonuses), by not subtract that initial 10?   To keep things balanced all DC's can then be bumped up by +5.  The players would then only have to add the revelent stats straight from their PC sheets to each roll.  No chance of plus this, minus that.



This is one of the "innovations" in my as yet unpublished {ABC}20 system. Take all the existing ability scores and Divide by 2 (then rebalance everything so that 15 is average). But my system has none of the backward compatibility with existing content requirements that M20 has so I can do that.


----------



## Ry

jmucchiello said:
			
		

> This is one of the "innovations" in my as yet unpublished {ABC}20 system. Take all the existing ability scores and Divide by 2 (then rebalance everything so that 15 is average). But my system has none of the backward compatibility with existing content requirements that M20 has so I can do that.




Rank20 had the same idea; I went 1-6 for PC abilities (same as -1 to +4) to get rid of the negative numbers.  So I certainly agree in principle.  

Actually the frightening thing is that (D&D Stat/ 2), round down would be _easier_ to use in-game than m20's existing rule.


----------



## Ry

jezter6 said:
			
		

> I didn't say you WERE creating another system. But thus far, I've seen 4 m20's out there.




FYI, Rank20's not a microlite variant (or even an OGL game); it's a homebrew converted to use a d20 as the core mechanic and change the scale to be more appealing to d20ers.  Example: Agility is called DEX, the only "class" concepts I put in are Caster/Expert/Warrior, etc.


----------



## kensanata

> Originally Posted by Larcen
> 1) Redundant base Stats
> 2) MIND stat should be INT
> 3) Missing CHA score
> 4) No negative bonuses
> 5) Magic Saves
> 6) Class based HP dice
> 7) Size based HP dice
> 8) Level advancement




1. I like it the way it is. My main requirement is d20 compatibility such that I can plug in monsters and NPCs from other games. I don't have a problem choosing one of WIS/INT/CHA from a monster stat block for MIND, and so that's what I do.
2. I don't think that rule elegance necessarily means improved playability. I used to think that way when I was younger. Not anymore. In my German translation I called MIND "Will", in fact, because I couldn't bother to get it exactly right, and there's no single word for "intellect" or "brains". There's something for the mind as opposed to the soul, but it is synonymous to "ghost", which sucks.  If you think MIND means intelligence, then use it as that. But I'm not buying the four letter word thinking...
3. I don't think that rule elegance necessarily means improved playability. CHA is what roleplaying is for, in my game! 
4. I like negative bonuses. Some mages are weak in my game, and that's ok. Plus backwards compatibility. It also allows you to use the "increase one attribute by +1 every three levels" and it allows simple poisons to work unchanged ("-1 STR/-2 STR" stuff).
5. The revised rules have a different description of magic against unwilling targets, one for physical stuff like fireballs in which case AC is the relevant DC, and one for mental stuff like charm or sleep, in which case the old 1d20 + Level is relevant. Works for me, and it's simple to boot. I guess I could get used to picking knowledge+WILL for resistance to mental stuff, because on the average, it's the same as just the level. 
6. I like it the way it is. Mages & Clerics have less HP because they cast spells. It works out in the end! I'm currently trying to figure out whether fighters are truly underpowered at higher levels. I'm suspecting that applying their to-hit/damage class bonus to their AC would kind of fix that, however. I'll have to do some playtesting, first.
7. I disagree, since I don't plan to reduce HP of dwarves, for example. HP are not just physical – it's all sort of hardiness that is measured, I tell myself. And big or small monsters get changes to their to-hit and AC based on size. That's enough.
8. The current system works for me because my encounters are all challenging. Should they not be challenging because of the number of PCs, I'll wing it and give less EL. So basically I'm saying it's simpler than dividing XP and it's good enough for me. Not a strong argument, I guess, but being the conservative cold blanket that I am, let me disagree with this one as well. 

Oh and I was surprised to read that CHA was such an important attribute. My players have thought CHA to be a waste for years...


----------



## kensanata

*Macropedia*

The Macropedia is where volunteers such as Greywulf and I collect stuff we find interesting from this thread. Unfortunately for all other people, we don't collect everything. Only what we find interesting ourselves! I guess you'll have to use the Thread tools and download a plain-text copy of the thread for easy searching. Or you can start putting the stuff you like from this discussion on the Macropedia. 

--> http://home.greywulf.net/m20 <--


----------



## Ry

rycanada said:
			
		

> Actually the frightening thing is that (D&D Stat/ 2), round down would be _easier_ to use in-game than m20's existing rule.




Just want to clarify one thing.  When I said easier to use here, I meant both in terms of converting from older editions of D&D, and in terms of not using ugly negative numbers.

'wulf, I'm interested in writing something on the rules and why roleplaying games have them.  I think that can sometimes be the most boring introductory stuff in an RPG rulebook - but I think it's boring because it's long and unhelpful.  I've got an idea for something concise and helpful instead.  I'd like to get your input on it first though, see if you agree with what I'm saying and if we can get something together that works well for m20.


----------



## kensanata

rycanada said:
			
		

> I'm interested in writing something on the rules and why roleplaying games have them.




As you can tell from the questions I have asked myself, I'm very interested in the design rationale of games; I think the Macropedia is an excellent place to not only collect rules and adventures and the like, but also design notes on & justifications for the rules themselves.


----------



## kensanata

jezter6 said:
			
		

> What I'd like to see is just the very basics - compiled down into a single page. This page just covers the basic mechanic. Then toolkits and addons for each additional layer of rules complexity you want to add. It's almost like that, but there's a lot more 'core' rules than I'd like.




Then again, a reasonable set of defaults is nice to have. It all boils down to whether you think the Core should be playable without a single option/module or not. If it should be possible, then we can handwave anything that we suggest people take from the SRD – spells, equipment, weapons, armor, and even most of the race description. But since we are using a different set of attributes, we need to offer something relating the new attributes and some typical races, I think. I think of them as examples since my campaign has only human, kitsune and tanuki; no elves, dwarves, orcs, etc.

BTW that is another instance where thinking in terms of elegance and symmetry is a mistake: We could have listed more or less races – do I hear somebody asking for orcs? – and it would not have made much of a difference. Having four of them in the Core is just cute, not necessary.


----------



## Pilsnerquest

> BTW that is another instance where thinking in terms of elegance and symmetry is a *mistake*




*personal preference*


Pilsnerquest


----------



## Pilsnerquest

> As you can tell from the questions I have asked myself, I'm very interested in the design rationale of games; I think the Macropedia is an excellent place to not only collect rules and adventures and the like, but also design notes on & justifications for the rules themselves.




I second this idea.


Pilsner


----------



## Larcen

kensanata said:
			
		

> 1. I like it the way it is. My main requirement is d20 compatibility such that I can plug in monsters and NPCs from other games. I don't have a problem choosing one of WIS/INT/CHA from a monster stat block for MIND, and so that's what I do.



If you drop the base scores its still a simple matter to plug in stuff from other games.  Just dont copy over the base scores, keep only the bonuses.  And I am not sure what MIND has to do with this particular point, so...



			
				kensanata said:
			
		

> 2. I don't think that rule elegance necessarily means improved playability. I used to think that way when I was younger. Not anymore. In my German translation I called MIND "Will", in fact, because I couldn't bother to get it exactly right, and there's no single word for "intellect" or "brains". There's something for the mind as opposed to the soul, but it is synonymous to "ghost", which sucks.  If you think MIND means intelligence, then use it as that. But I'm not buying the four letter word thinking...



I think that keeping INT goes a long way toward maintaining the D&D Lite flavor, or D20 Lite.  I am just looking at how I will go about selling this to old hands at my gaming table.   
"Ok, first we drop CON and WIS.  CON is now HPs, and WIS is now, uh, YOU guys."  
...sounds better than...  
"Ok, first we roll WIS, INT, and CHA, and all that, into something called MIND."   
I can just hear it now: "Riiiiiiiight."



			
				kensanata said:
			
		

> 3. I don't think that rule elegance necessarily means improved playability. CHA is what roleplaying is for, in my game!



Not fair to your players.  Just like you can't expect most people to roleplay a 20 INT properly, you shouldn't ask an introverted player to roleplay a high CHA.  For that matter, can a forceful and/or likeable roleplayer in your group use a 5 CHA character to convince a whole town to follow him?  I would rather let the in-game stats do the work.....with the help of roleplaying. 



			
				kensanata said:
			
		

> 4. I like negative bonuses. Some mages are weak in my game, and that's ok. Plus backwards compatibility. It also allows you to use the "increase one attribute by +1 every three levels" and it allows simple poisons to work unchanged ("-1 STR/-2 STR" stuff).



I am not seeing how all positive base scores affects the level increase rules, or the poison rules.  They would continue to work fine just as they are.  Backwards compatibility is an issue yes, but easily solved by adding +5 to all listed DCs.  And all future modules for this game can be written to take that into consideration anyway. 



			
				kensanata said:
			
		

> 5. The revised rules have a different description of magic against unwilling targets, one for physical stuff like fireballs in which case AC is the relevant DC, and one for mental stuff like charm or sleep, in which case the old 1d20 + Level is relevant. Works for me, and it's simple to boot. I guess I could get used to picking knowledge+WILL for resistance to mental stuff, because on the average, it's the same as just the level.



Cool.  I still want to dodge fireballs with my DEX and use my STR to free myself from a Bigby's hand spell or a Web, not a D20 + level.



			
				kensanata said:
			
		

> 6. I like it the way it is. Mages & Clerics have less HP because they cast spells. It works out in the end! I'm currently trying to figure out whether fighters are truly underpowered at higher levels. I'm suspecting that applying their to-hit/damage class bonus to their AC would kind of fix that, however. I'll have to do some playtesting, first.



I agree that the spell HP cost can balance this out.  I am just suggesting that this is a good way to throw the fighters (and possibly the rogue) a bone if research proves them weaker than desired.



			
				kensanata said:
			
		

> 7. I disagree, since I don't plan to reduce HP of dwarves, for example. HP are not just physical – it's all sort of hardiness that is measured, I tell myself. And big or small monsters get changes to their to-hit and AC based on size. That's enough.



Dwarves have always been considered Medium mass-wise so no problems there giving them a d6.  



			
				kensanata said:
			
		

> 8. The current system works for me because my encounters are all challenging. Should they not be challenging because of the number of PCs, I'll wing it and give less EL. So basically I'm saying it's simpler than dividing XP and it's good enough for me. Not a strong argument, I guess, but being the conservative cold blanket that I am, let me disagree with this one as well.



As DM, I will just assign the EL based on the party size to begin with.  If its an EL from a module and the module suggests 4 players, and we have 8 in our party, just halve XPs, or double the monsters.  



			
				kensanata said:
			
		

> Oh and I was surprised to read that CHA was such an important attribute. My players have thought CHA to be a waste for years...



We use CHA all the time...pretty much everytime PC to NPC interaction happens where the PC wants somethign from the NPC.  Look at all the skills that use CHA too.  Also, using MIND to include CHA means you cant have a stupid charistmatic leader in M20...which is a shame since they seem to run rampant in real life.


----------



## jmucchiello

rycanada said:
			
		

> Actually the frightening thing is that (D&D Stat/ 2), round down would be _easier_ to use in-game than m20's existing rule.



Yes, it is elegant if I can come off not sounding to haughty. Basically all DCs go up 5. Opposed die rolls are unaffected since both the attacker's and defender's "ability modifier" has gone up 5.

Making up characters is easy. You have 6s across the 6 stats, raise or lower them up or down 1:1 with a max of 9 and a min of 4. Apply racial scores.

It makes poisons and stuff much simpler. If your Str or Dex go to 0, you can't move/act. If your Int, wis or cha goes to 0, you fall into a stupor. If your Con drops to 0, you are dead. And poisons/diseases convert by halving the ability damage/drain caused.

I plan to use a "thing" encumbrance rule basically because the average human can carry about 5 (ave str = 5) not too bulky things. Bulky things take up 2 (or more) thing slots. So you have a weapon, a shield, a backpack, light armor. That's 4 things and leaves room for 1 or 2 other things. It's just the right range for dealing with equipment.

It only took 24 pages before I started to open up about my own system. I amazed I lasted that long.


----------



## Ry

kensanata said:
			
		

> BTW that is another instance where thinking in terms of elegance and symmetry is a mistake: We could have listed more or less races – do I hear somebody asking for orcs? – and it would not have made much of a difference. Having four of them in the Core is just cute, not necessary.




I'm sure you have an argument to back this position up, but just telling someone their idea is cute and not necessary leaves us in the dark as to the content of that argument.  It sounds like you were aiming for an insightful remark that cuts to the heart of the issue - but there just isn't enough explanation there to understand what you're getting at (apart from not liking the proposed suggestions).  I could be mistaken, but I don't think that people who are trying to simplify D&D generally think elegance is a principle that should be rejected out of hand.


----------



## Ry

I think there's some great suggestions here, but again, I had the impression that it's too late in the game for these kind of suggestions to make it into m20, which has already become its own beast, I think.


----------



## Ry

And, now that it's ridiculously late, here's a link to something I thought was cool (and Creative Commons!)

Sweet20 (a variant experience system) 

http://files.crngames.com/cc/sweet20/experience.html


----------



## popeclayton

*Conversion Examples*

Hello folks.  Congratulations on all of the work that you've done with m20.  I've been following this thread for about a month and finally have some input.  

Can anyone offer guidance on converting existing characters and monsters with full stat blocks for use in an m20 game?  The wiki page d20 Conversion Example briefly covers the topic, but it seems written by and for more experienced DMs and isn't particularly helpful for those of us with less experience.  In that example, the actual conversion isn't really discussed, it's just presented, so those of us who don't have a deep grasp of the game are left to guess as to why, say, INT was chosen for the MIND stat instead of WIS or, as discussed above, CHA.

Not to dwell on that example, but I guess what I'm getting around to is another vote for documentation of the game design decisions.  I think that that documentation would be well served by several explanatory examples for PC, NPC and monster conversions.  As a new DM, I don't yet have the insight to know how my judgment calls will affect the game balance.  Or perhaps that's more telling of my `new DM-ness', that I'm more worried about game balance than actually just playing the game.

Thanks again for all of the great work!


----------



## jmucchiello

rycanada said:
			
		

> I think there's some great suggestions here, but again, I had the impression that it's too late in the game for these kind of suggestions to make it into m20, which has already become its own beast, I think.



Not everyone in this thread is necessarily trying to make m20 better specifically. This thread has become a refuge for all moderately d20 based rules reductions. And, for example, just because I post something incompatible with m20 (I continue to refer to the standard d20 6 abilities) doesn't mean someone couldn't lift it for use with m20's reduced number of abilities.

Likewise, there will eventually be a m20 2nd edition which I'm sure will polarize the m20 grognards* versus those who've only recently discovered m20. (Hopefully PirateCat doesn't ban me for starting an edition war.  )

*defined as someone who's been playing m20 since October, of course.


----------



## Ry

For better or worse, 'wulf is sort of the benevolent dictator of the project, so I'm going to wait and see how he weighs in.


----------



## kensanata

I think I should stop posting late at night. My last post did not come across as intended, and for that I am sorry. 



			
				Larcen said:
			
		

> If you drop the base scores its still a simple matter to plug in stuff from other games.  Just dont copy over the base scores, keep only the bonuses.  And I am not sure what MIND has to do with this particular point, so...




Well, you are right when it comes to combat stats, and these do make up the bulk of it all. When reading d20 source material mentioning a poison or a spell that does ability damage, there's an additional step required for the GM. You dismiss this extra step:



			
				Larcen said:
			
		

> I am not seeing how all positive base scores affects the level increase rules, or the poison rules.  They would continue to work fine just as they are.  Backwards compatibility is an issue yes, but easily solved by adding +5 to all listed DCs.  And all future modules for this game can be written to take that into consideration anyway.




I think that's where we differ. As little work as possible for DMs, and the use of lots of unchanged d20 material are my working assumptions. If we don't share these assumptions, then we'll probably reach different conclusions. Adding design notes which would include such assumptions made into the Macropedia would be a good first step.

In fact, we could have the Core rules with one set of assumptions, lots of option pages like we already have, and additional "Option Set" pages which list the options to use if you wanted to run a game with a different set of assumptions. Basically these option set pages could feature a copy of the M20 rules with the suggested changes already applied. We only have one page to start with, so it won't be much work. These could be considered variants or spin-offs or derived works (meaning: inspired by M20). The Macropedia provides us with a place to keep all this material together, which is a big plus, I think.

But back to what you wrote: I mentioned MIND in my comment to point one because there's a slight contradiction in what I'm saying: On the one hand I want it to be compatible with very fast conversion, but on the other hand we have only three abilities instead of six. So I felt I needed to illustrate that the drawback of not using the same number of abilities was not a problem. Basically I map CON to STR and WIS/INT/CHA to MIND, which is fast, and has not yet led to any problems. That's what I was trying to say.



			
				Larcen said:
			
		

> I am just looking at how I will go about selling this to old hands at my gaming table. "Ok, first we drop CON and WIS.  CON is now HPs, and WIS is now, uh, YOU guys." […]




Haha!  Good point. If your players want it, then you should give it to them. And somebody else already reintroduced CHA into their M20 game, so I bet it would be no problem at all to return back to six ability scores.



			
				Larcen said:
			
		

> Not fair to your players.  Just like you can't expect most people to roleplay a 20 INT properly, you shouldn't ask an introverted player to roleplay a high CHA.  For that matter, can a forceful and/or likeable roleplayer in your group use a 5 CHA character to convince a whole town to follow him?  I would rather let the in-game stats do the work.....with the help of roleplaying.




Also a good point. Basically I've never had a player fail to roleplay bad ability scores. That's easy to do, in my experience. High ability scores are not a problem as long as they translate to dice rolls, eg. combat. That leaves two ability scores that are problematic when high in my experience: INT and CHA.

Here's how I think of CHA:


 For leaders: If a village needs to be evacuated because of an impeding invasion, I either wing it, or my characters have a fake ability called Prestige that floats: It goes down if they abandon friends and betray allies, it goes up for honorable deeds. That would also work to determine the number of retainers, or their morale.
 For cheaters: If trying to fasttalk a merchant into a deal, I find that a skill like Subterfuge works just as well. Basically for these situations I just need CHA or Subterfuge, but in M20, skills are basically the same as your level/HD, and fast-talking is something I see as getting better with every level – much faster than an ability increase on average. So I'm happy with Subterfuge, ergo I don't need CHA…

Basically this ties in with the last point about the usefulness of CHA:



			
				Larcen said:
			
		

> We use CHA all the time...pretty much everytime PC to NPC interaction happens where the PC wants somethign from the NPC.  Look at all the skills that use CHA too.  Also, using MIND to include CHA means you cant have a stupid charistmatic leader in M20...which is a shame since they seem to run rampant in real life.




I like the point about leaders in real life.  I usually think that the ones we think of as charismatic but stupid are really just cunning bastards: Appealing to the masses by making foolish mistakes, but raking in the dough because they make sure their friends profit from the wars they start, from the mergers they support, and so on. At it's core, these people are playing dumb because that's the smart thing to do.

So yes, my games don't feature charismatic stupid people.

As for a substitute to roleplaying (shy players wanting to play charismatic leaders): I've never seen that in real life. I think that in real life, the player would be dominated by the others at the table anyway, to be honest. But should a situation arise where the player cannot roleplay something that his character would do, players simply tell me their intentions, and I provide the necessary results. That works for me.

High INT used to be problem. In the early days, players would complain about riddles in my game, and tell me that realistically, their INT 18 characters should have been able to solve it immediately. That's why my games no longer have such riddles. 



			
				Larcen said:
			
		

> I still want to dodge fireballs with my DEX and use my STR to free myself from a Bigby's hand spell or a Web, not a D20 + level.




Well, the fireball and any hands spells trying to hit you are taken care of by using AC, I think, since that takes DEX bonus into account. As for a web, once it is created, I'd treat it like an ordinary web. How to free yourself from such a web is not in the rules, but I'd assume some sort of physical+STR vs DC 15 or 20.



			
				Larcen said:
			
		

> I agree that the spell HP cost can balance this out.  I am just suggesting that this is a good way to throw the fighters (and possibly the rogue) a bone if research proves them weaker than desired.




Definitely something to keep in mind when looking at higher level fighters.

Again, sorry if I came across as overly negative.


----------



## greywulf

rycanada said:
			
		

> For better or worse, 'wulf is sort of the benevolent dictator of the project, so I'm going to wait and see how he weighs in.




Hey, who said I was benevolent? I never said I was benevolent! Shoot him! 

As it stands with Microlite20, the Core Rules are designed to be the bare miniumum needed to be able to play the game and still be mostly d20 compliant. By all means, add anything you need to make the game better fit your needs, and share what you've done with the rest of us too. We like to know how you think, and might even steal your ideas too. Theft is good.  Change stuff too if you want. Microlite20 is a jumping off point, so jump!

Think of it like this.

D&D is like a car (ok, it's more like an 18-wheeler with no brakes, but run with me on this one). Microlite20 is more like a bicycle. It's got two wheels, pedals, brakes and a seat, and that's all. If you want to add a basket, or change the size of the wheels, go ahead. It's yours 

Bear in mind though that if you add an extra set of wheels, an engine, extra seats and luggage space, you've got a car again. Maybe a slightly different style car, but still a car.

Take stuff away from Microlite20 and you'll end up with a unicycle, and probably fall over unless you're very experienced. Ultramicrolite20 is the unicycle. 

As a consequence there's no such thing as "not compatible" with Microlite20. If you want to add stats back in, go ahead. Change MIND to INT, Will or IQ if it suits your idea of the game better. Put BAB in if you like; I think the game plays just fine without it, but that's me. What do I know?

As an aside, we've playtested this thoroughly at all levels from 1st (actually, 0th, but that's another story) to 20th, and all the classes scale just fine, but not in the same way that D&D scales. I think that's a Good Thing, personally. A 20th Level Fighter will outstrip ANY character of equal level in melee combat in Microlite20. They get +5 to attack and damage to start with which likely gives them an extra attack each round above any other class. Add in their likely obscene STR stat from level advancement, and he's a total tank.

Here's a 20th level Dwarven Fighter, for example:

Derek "The Voice of the Mountain" Littlethorpe, Dwarf Fighter-20
STR 24 DEX 15 MIND 12
Phys +23, all others @ +20
HP 88, AC 18 (Plate + Shield)
Battle axe +37/+32/+27/+22/+17/+12/+7/+2 1d8+17

That's without magic items of any kind.

In comparison, here's an Elven Rogue-20

Aeiaeio Walker by Day, Elven Rogue-20
STR 15, DEX 24, MIND 12
Sub +23, all others @ +20
HP 80, AC 23 (Studded Leather)
Composite Longbow +32/+27/+22/+17/+12/+7/+2 1d8+2 (first attack: 1d8+25 if Sneak attack)
Paired shortswords +30/+30/+25/+20/+15/+10/+5 1d6+2 (first attack: 1d6+25 if Sneak attack)

Again, sans magic items. 

Wow. A system where I can create 20th level characters _in my head_! Just how cool is that??!!

Dunno what you think, but I'd say those two would be a fair fight for each other. The elf would likely get the drop on the Dwarf and pepper him with arrows taking (say) three-quarter of his HP before the Dwarf acts like a blender and chews the Elf up in a dervish of blood and guts. He'd get at least 5 hits on the Elf easily in one round (probably more) doing an average of 21hp damage each. That's over a 100hp damage. Take off Derek's shield and give him a two-handed waraxe (x2 STR damage). Ouch. 

Of course, in another situation (ambush!), the Elf would win before the Dwarf so much as lifted his axe. 

OK, it' might not be perfect, but it's balanced enough for me. Just like a bicycle.

The same holds true with spellcasters. At high levels they're lethal, but their likely rapidly decreasing HP means they are VERY vulnerable in a fight. Just as it should be, regardless of level.

In unrelated news: I've posted up my New Gods Campaign Setting which provides a D&D-style backdrop that's just a bit different to your usual fayre. Enjoy.

Oh, and I'm still ploughing on with the Big Shiny pdf. It's up to 26 pages, has all the Combat House Rules, Mass Combat, information about making your own campaign setting, the New Gods above (as I was working on that at the same time so it was an easy copy-and-paste) and more. The table still need dropping in, and I need to pull in everything from the adventures, other campaign settings, magic, etc. It's about a third of the way there, I'd guess.

And I promise.... promise.... that there'll be Design Considerations there so you can understand how this dictator thinks. I'll post them in the Macropedia too, ok?

Benevolent? Pah.

EDIT: A system where I can create 20th level characters in my head _and get the math wrong!_ Just how dumbass is that??!! Fixed now. That'll teach me to add up without caffeine.


----------



## Pilsnerquest

It occurs to me that if we were all put into a locked room and told to come up with one set of relatively agreed upon rpg rules we would probably all end up in a giant brawl or worse. I would like to have been a fly on the wall when the guys came up with Chainmail.


Pilsnerquest


----------



## jezter6

greywulf said:
			
		

> Hey, who said I was benevolent? I never said I was benevolent! Shoot him!
> Here's a 20th level Dwarven Fighter, for example:
> 
> Derek "The Voice of the Mountain" Littlethorpe, Dwarf Fighter-20
> STR 24 DEX 15 MIND 12
> Phys +23, all others @ +20
> HP 88, AC 18 (Plate + Shield)
> Battle axe +37/+32/+27/+22/+17/+12/+7/+2 1d8+17
> 
> That's without magic items of any kind.
> 
> In comparison, here's an Elven Rogue-20
> 
> Aeiaeio Walker by Day, Elven Rogue-20
> STR 15, DEX 24, MIND 12
> Sub +23, all others @ +20
> HP 80, AC 23 (Studded Leather)
> Composite Longbow +22/+17/+12/+7/+2 1d8+2 (first attack: 1d8+25 if Sneak attack)
> Paired shortswords +20/+20/+15/+10/+5 1d6+2 (first attack: 1d6+25 if Sneak attack)
> 
> Again, sans magic items.
> 
> Wow. A system where I can create 20th level characters _in my head_! Just how cool is that??!!
> 
> Dunno what you think, but I'd say those two would be a fair fight for each other. The elf would likely get the drop on the Dwarf and pepper him with arrows taking (say) three-quarter of his HP before the Dwarf acts like a blender and chews the Elf up in a dervish of blood and guts. He'd get at least 5 hits on the Elf easily in one round (probably more) doing an average of 21hp damage each. That's over a 100hp damage. Take off Derek's shield and give him a two-handed waraxe (x2 STR damage). Ouch.
> 
> Of course, in another situation (ambush!), the Elf would win before the Dwarf so much as lifted his axe.
> 
> OK, it' might not be perfect, but it's balanced enough for me. Just like a bicycle.
> 
> Benevolent? Pah.




My concern is that either way, combat is only lasting 1 round. While I hate d20 combat of 200 rounds and 6 full gamings sessions of rolling dice to complete just 1 combat...I want it to last more than a round.
With only 1d6 HP, and a level 20 guy having only about 80 HP, but doing 100+/rd, it seems like whoever wins init is (almost) always going to be the winner.
Scary thought.


----------



## kensanata

*Elegance*



			
				kensanata said:
			
		

> I don't think that rule elegance necessarily means improved playability.






			
				rycanada said:
			
		

> […] I don't think that people who are trying to simplify D&D generally think elegance is a principle that should be rejected out of hand.




Oh, I am sure that elegance is an important driving force. I'm just trying to avoid an overemphasis on some elements of elegance, such as things pairing up, or being symmetrical.

In M20, for example, we have three abilities, four races, four classes, and four skills. Now, is this fact alone a good reason to add a fourth ability? I don't think so. We could have five races (orcs STR+3, MIND-1), or five classes (rangers with Subterfuge +4, no sneak attack, and a free animal companion).

And, as I argued above, for a long time the Subterfuge skill has been the only skill my players have used regularly. I'm about to abandon the Knowledge skill, for example, arguing that I will either handwave it because I want my players to remember important facts that will give them an in-game clue right now, or because I want them to roleplay obtaining the knowledge. For example, just roll com+MIND, (or just 1d20 + MIND!) adding an appropriate bonus if trying to make a D&D knowledge check:

-5 if asking a villager from a remote village
+1 if asking an educated citizen
+3 if asking elders
+5 if asking a scholar (obviously a level 1 mage, haha)
+10 if researching in a library
+15 if researching in a library of international reknown

I'm not saying that I would like such a system better. I'm still trying to think of something. All I'm saying that elegance alone does not necessarily improves the game.

The next question, of course, is what exactly is this "elegance" I keep talking about? It's what I see in Larcen's message. And he was not the first to think in that line, if I remember correctly (although I'd have to search those 24 thread pages to actually find another example):



			
				Larcen said:
			
		

> I thought about it and thought about it, and I think there really is this big hole without a Charisma score. It really is a huge stat in most campaigns (esp. heroic fantasy games) and their would be a void without it. CHA would also serve to round out all the classes, each having their own prime stat. Skills would also be rounded out, each having it's own prime stat as well.




The give-aways are "big hole without […] there would be a void without it […] to round out all the classes / skills […] each having […]" He's basically making an aesthetic argument. And I wanted to say that I'm not buying it on aesthetic reasons alone, without actually taking the time to explain why. I hope this post somewhat delivers what you were expecting.


----------



## greywulf

On to Larcen's and other's (excellent) feedback. I'm still ploughing through the backlog, my apologies.

*1) Redundant Base Stats*
Ultramicrolite20  works like that, using just bonuses as stats rather than a "3-18-ish" range. I kept the traditional range in Microlite20 simply because it's familiar and easy to explain in character generation.

*2) MIND stat*
I renamed it because it's more of a combination of INT, WIS and CHA, so needed a new name. STR and DEX however are still STR and DEX (though technically STR is really STR and CON, but now you're just being picky!). 

*3) Missing CHA score*
Good points, all; that's why CHA is an optional stat  in the Macropedia. 

It's not in the Core simply because it can be removed with little impact on the game. As it shows in the Skill Use examples , all of the CHA-based skills can easily be recreated using the existing stat+skill system in Microlite20. Here's the d20 CHA-based ones again and their proposed M20 equivalents:

Bluff - Comm+MIND
Diplomacy - Comm+MIND
Disguise - Sub+MIND
Gather Information - Comm+MIND
Handle Animal - Comm+MIND or Comm+STR (if the animal is bigger than you)
Intimidate - could be Phys+STR, or Sub+MIND or Comm+STR. You choose
Perform - Comm+MIND, though it could be DEX if you’re juggling, or STR if you’re a weightlifter
Use Magical Device - you can either use it, or you can’t. GM fiat. Alternatively, MIND only

That's not a lot of skills in return for a whole extra stat, but if you want to include it, go ahead.

Remember that in Microlite20 the Cleric has been re-tooled as the Communication king (+3 Comm) so that class can be used to reflect the empathic Healer, charismatic Bard (cleric of music, perhaps?) intimidating Druid (cleric of nature), puplit bashing Priest or inspiring Paladin. If you want to play any of those then it's a Cleric you want. 

Clerics in Microlite20 rock, just like Fighters, Magi and Rogues rock. Did I mention that?

And as for the "stupid charismatic leader" thing - it's called role-playing! - Give me a STR 16 DEX 14 MIND 6 Fighter and the role-playing provides the charisma. This should translate into positive mods on skill use when it applies.

_"Ivan say we all charge Orc stronghold! Ivan say we win! Ivan say we bring great treasure back home to our wives and children! You with me? Yes? Yes? YEEEEESSSSSS!!!"_

*4) No negative bonuses *
Call me old skool, but I like my negatives. I like the STR 6, MIND 16 Magi. And the STR 16 MIND 6 Fighter too. Negatives maketh for Interesting Characters. If I wanted perfection, I'd be me, but this is Fantasy, right? 

Again, each to their own. If you want only positives, do it.

*5) Magic Saves*
I agree; that's how it is now. I _really_ need to make the magic rules clearer. As it says in the core:

_"Note that there are no 'saving throws' in this game; use Physical + STR or DEX bonus for Fortitude and Reflex saves. Saving against magic (Will save) is usually MIND bonus + your level."
_

So if the spell grants a Reflex save, roll Phys+DEX against the given DC (usually 10+Spell Level, or whatever). 

This has been clarified in the Revised rules already though.

*6) Class based HP dice*
The reason why every class gets the same HP scale is that it's simple and consistent. As Magi and Clerics use HP to cast spells, they need all the HP they can get. 

Personally, I think that D&D's HP system is just plain silly. Why does an Ogre Wizard only get d4 Hit Points per class level, or a Halfling Barbarian get d12? HP should be based on Creature Type, and only on Creature Type. Regardless of class, a Humanoid in D&D should get 1d8 HP/Level. As this is Microlite20 not D&D, I simplified that to STR+1d6/level. This gives 1st level characters the boost they deserve (and fuel for Magi and Clerics). That's the reasoning, anyway.

Of course, if you want to change it (and maybe write it up as a House Rule in the Macropedia), please do!

*7) Size based HP dice*
Simplicity again. I ditched all of the size-based crap from the game as it just gets in the way of a good story. I think Bilbo, Frodo, Merry and Pippin prove that Hobbitses are every bit as tough as humans (if not more so), and the same should apply to their kender-bred Halfling cousins. 

Same for weapon sizes. Halflings are more likely to use shortswords and smaller weapons because their higher DEX puts them at a considerable advantage with light weapons if they are Fighters or Rogues. If someone wants to generate a STR 18 Halfling I'm pretty sure they'll be able to wield a greatsword with the best Human Fighters, and do the same damage. It'll drag on the ground while they are walking, but still.......... 

*8) Level advancement: How does the EL rules as they stand take into consideration the party's size? 
*
The important part in the Core here is "Add up the Encounter Levels (ELs) of every encounter _you take part in_." If there's 8 opponents then then each PC might only face off against one or two of them. They only get the EL for the dudes they fight.

For example, if Todd the Barbarian (Fighter-1) gets into the fight and helps take down two of the EL2 critters, he needs to finish off 6 more EL-worth of monsters to reach Level 2.

*9)* Kensanata also asked *whether the skills other than Subterfuge ever gets used*. I guess the answer to that is it entirely depends on your style of game. My group use all of the skills, a lot and often in surprising ways. Surprising to me, anyway. Here's some examples (not all done by my group, but they coulda):

Phys+STR - Bash down a door, swim a stream, lift a corpse
Phys+DEX - Climb a rope, dodge a flame trap, jump away from a Goblin's car (don't ask)
Phys+MIND - To judo throw a foe
Sub+STR - escape from ropes, 
Sub+DEX - Hide, Move silently, disable a trap, palm a coin
Sub+MIND - Listen, search, spot, disguise
Comm+STR - Intimidate the Goblins, outstare an Ogre
Comm+DEX - juggling act, hand signals, ride a horse, forge documents
Comm+MIND - Influence a crowd or individual, calm an animal, some Perform skills
Know+STR - find a foe's weak point, blacksmithing
Know+DEX - most Craft skills, many Perform skills
Know+MIND - research, streetwise knowledge, gather info, recall facts

That's just off the top of my head. In game the skill uses come thick and fast, of all kinds.

*10)* popeclayton asked *about monster conversion.* 
The short answer is don't! Monsters can be taken straight from D&D, the SRD or published adventures and used as-is. Most of the stats don't apply , do just ignore them.

For example:

A Darkmantle's stats as per the SRD are:


> Hit Dice: 1d10+1 (6 hp)
> Initiative: +4
> Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 30 ft. (poor)
> Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +6 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 17
> Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+0
> Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d4+4)
> Full Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d4+4)
> Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
> Special Attacks: Darkness, improved grab, constrict 1d4+4
> Special Qualities: Blindsight 90 ft.
> Saves: Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +0
> Abilities: Str 16, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 10
> Skills: Hide +10, Listen +5*, Spot +5*
> Feats: Improved Initiative
> Environment: Underground
> Organization: Solitary, pair, clutch (3–9), or swarm (6–15)
> Challenge Rating: 1
> Treasure: None
> Alignment: Always neutral
> Advancement: 2–3 HD (Small)
> Level Adjustment: —




Cutting out the chaff, Microlite20 just needs:

*Darkmantle*, HD1d10+1 (6 hp), AC17, Slam +5 (1d4+4)

For special abilities, judge them based on speed and simplicity. Using the example above, I'd suggest that a Darkmantle does 1d4+4 damage per round until the victim makes a Phys+STR save vs. DC 17 (the Darkmantle's AC). That's good enough to be playable and cuts right through the D&D grapple rules with a knife.

Hope that helps.

Phew! These were good questions. I'll post them in a FAQ on the Macropedia, and I'll trough through this thread for more. I'm sure there's lots now so it'll be worth collating them.

And thanks for the re-org in the Macropedia, Kensanata. Much appreciated!

All the best!


----------



## Darrell

greywulf said:
			
		

> As it stands with Microlite20, the Core Rules are designed to be the bare miniumum needed to be able to play the game and still be mostly d20 compliant. By all means, add anything you need to make the game better fit your needs, and share what you've done with the rest of us too. We like to know how you think, and might even steal your ideas too. Theft is good.  Change stuff too if you want. Microlite20 is a jumping off point, so jump!
> 
> Think of it like this.
> 
> D&D is like a car (ok, it's more like an 18-wheeler with no brakes, but run with me on this one). Microlite20 is more like a bicycle. It's got two wheels, pedals, brakes and a seat, and that's all. If you want to add a basket, or change the size of the wheels, go ahead. It's yours
> 
> Bear in mind though that if you add an extra set of wheels, an engine, extra seats and luggage space, you've got a car again. Maybe a slightly different style car, but still a car.




I think I've got to agree with the 'wulf on this one.  From the beginning, part of the real beauty of m20 (at least for me) has been that I can, say, go to my local Barnes & Noble, buy a D&D adventure like 'Scourge of the Howling Horde,' and run it from the source material without a lot of conversion work.  That ease of use with extant D&D/d20 sources is a primary reason why my group and I are actually running m20 more often than D&D now.

I've made my own changes, of course.  For one thing, I'm one of those who prefers having CHA written back in.      Other than that, however, I prefer to have m20 as a 'core' system with 'add-able' options; and the 'plug and play' aspect of the options with m20 means that you can switch out the magic system, extra ability scores, combat options, etc. without disturbing the 'core' of the game.

I'd say core microlite20 needs to stay pretty much as-is.  Fill up the Macropedia with as many options as possible, though.  It's always nice to be able to 'tinker' a bit.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## Pilsnerquest

Checked out the "New Gods" campaign and it looks pretty nifty. The way it can be interwoven with the d20 skills, feats, races, monsters, etc. especially stood out. And those poor sterile male Pans watching the human males mate with their female Pans, the humanity! Or panity rather.

Pilsnerquest


----------



## kensanata

*Monster Conversion*



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> Cutting out the chaff, Microlite20 just needs:
> 
> *Darkmantle*, HD1d10+1 (6 hp), AC17, Slam +5 (1d4+4)
> 
> For special abilities, judge them based on speed and simplicity. Using the example above, I'd suggest that a Darkmantle does 1d4+4 damage per round until the victim makes a Phys+STR save vs. DC 17 (the Darkmantle's AC). That's good enough to be playable and cuts right through the D&D grapple rules with a knife.




I'd actually keep Initiative +4 because it is combat relevant, and add Subterfuge +10 because that will be important for a surprise attacks.


----------



## jezter6

Not sure if m20 is fully done, but I'd really like to chime in here.

Everyone gets a basic BAB of +1/lvl, fighters get that +5. AC does not scale, and because there are no special abilities to evade damage or boost AC outside of straight dex + armor, we have a problem.

Not to mention, with everyone getting d6 HP, the fighter really is getting hosed. Not only do all the other classes get full BAB/level, he can't take half the hits he normally could because he's got just over half his expected HP. A 20th level char with an AC of only 17-20 with barely 80 HP is not going to last long against anyone, let alone a challenge of the same levels. You cannot put a CR 20 encounter against 4 lvl 20 guys...they will die a horrible, HORRIBLE death because damage from weapons/sources/spells are unchanged, yet the PCs have less HP than they should.

Maybe it works in the 1-5 lvl range, but I can see where power creep comes in that EVERYONE hits, EVERY attack, EVERY round - but since everyone hits, and HP is low, nobody lasts more than 1 round ever.

At first I really liked the idea, as I was trying to rules-lite d20 myself...but this I'm not sure I'm able to handle. I'd love to not have to go back and create yet another lite20 clone, but I've yet to see a system handle everything.


----------



## Ry

I know some people liked my Reserve rules, but I don't want to hijack, so here's a link to my blog where I admit to my *Big Fat Design Mistake:*

http://ryanstoughton.spaces.live.com/


----------



## kensanata

*Cr*



			
				jezter6 said:
			
		

> You cannot put a CR 20 encounter against 4 lvl 20 guys...they will die a horrible, HORRIBLE death because damage from weapons/sources/spells are unchanged, yet the PCs have less HP than they should.




I'm interested in some playtesting data. Greywulf said he did "extensive playtesting at all levels", but perhaps he only tested player characteres against each other, 1:1, and not using monsters with a given CR. That is, his tests will tell us whether the four classes are balanced between each other, but his tests cannot tell us whether characters are balanced with monsters of a given CR.

I can see Greywulf handwaving all the CR stuff away, however. 

Anyway, if anybody has the time to do some party-of-four against monsters of a given CR from the SRD, I'd be interested in hearing how it went!


----------



## popeclayton

*More on Conversion*



			
				kensanata said:
			
		

> I'd actually keep Initiative +4 because it is combat relevant, and add Subterfuge +10 because that will be important for a surprise attacks.




I put together a (not so) brief look at and discussion of Greywulf's and kensanata's stat conversion comments on the d20 Conversion Example wiki page.  Everything after the first "Discussion" header was pulled out of a very dark place by this very inexperienced GM, so please comment and adjust at will; I could be way off.  Apologies, also, if I put words into anyone's mouth.


----------



## greywulf

Pilsnerquest, thanks for the feedback about the New Gods campaign setting. You're right, Pan males have it tough  I'm more than tempted to run New Gods as a full campaign, and document the whole thing in a whole lot more detail than I put down so far. Maybe sometime, eh?

Jezter, Microlite20 doesn't have a concept of BAB at all; your attack bonus is level+STR bonus (for melee) or level+DEX bonus (for missile. Fighters get a +1 to that at 1st and every 5 levels. I guess you could say that BAB=level, but it's redundant and incorrect. A STR 18 Fighter could have a melee to-hit of +6/+1 at 1st level in Microlite20, and that's impossible in d20. BAB is a misleading term.

While AC doesn't scale the way to-hit bonuses do, 20th level character is unlikely to have AC that same as his 1st level simply because she'll have a tonne of magical armour, rings, bracers and all the rest of the frippery of near-Epic level power. I'd estimate a 20th level character would have around a +10 AC bonus from all those enchanted items. The best magical weapon they'll have would be around a +5, so AC jumps ahead in the arm's race.

The example I gave comparing a 20th level Fighter with a 20th level Rogue ignored magical items completely, because I was comparing like with like; it's fair to say the 20th level PCs would have similar-power magical equipment, so I just removed it from the equation. More to the point, I didn't put it in so I didn't need to take it out 

Going back a step, a 20th level character is still mortal and just can't soak up damage like their D&D counterparts. I didn't want PCs with hundreds of hit points to slow down combat or charge Uber-monsters because they know they can survive anything it throws at them. For example, a 20th level D&D Fighter would have around 155hp. That's enough to be bitten by a Tarrarasque five times and still walk away.

In Microlite20, the hit points are higher at low levels and lower at high levels. This favours the little guy, but demands tactics at high levels. If that's a problem, feel free to adjust the hit points rules to suit 



> Maybe it works in the 1-5 lvl range, but I can see where power creep comes in that EVERYONE hits, EVERY attack, EVERY round - but since everyone hits, and HP is low, nobody lasts more than 1 round ever.




.....which is kinda accurate if you think about it. If you're facing off against the Greatest Assassin Ever (Rogue-20) and just stand there, you're going to be a meaningless puddle in under a round. Five hits, you're dead. If you're 20th level, you'll want Epic battles full of exciting cuts, ripostes, sparks flying, the works. So that's what you get. Don't just stand there!

How about this idea:
*Attack in attack bonus order instead of initiative order*.

For example, if Abel is a Fighter with +37/+32/+27/+22/+17/+12/+6/+1 and Bart is a Rogue with +30/+25/+20/+15/+10/+5. A single round of combat would go:

+37: Abel hits hard, following with
+32: a backhanded strike. Bart reels, following through the spin with
+30: a strike against Abel's side.
+27: Abel slashes upwards, catching Bart under the ribs
+25: Bart responds with a riposte
+22: Abel hits Bart across his face
+20: Bart locks blades, misses
+17: Abel pushes his back with a forceful strike
+15: Bart lunges, draws blood again
+12: Abel closes, misses
+10: Bart slices Abel's side
+6: Abel feints, narrowly misses
+5: Bart follows through, hits again
+1: Abel misses wildly

All in one round still, but perhaps a better solution. Combats at high level should be faster and deadly. Gods do not fight other gods lightly.

Hmmm. That would work at low level too. I'm suddenly tempted to ditch initiative completely and just go in attack bonus order. It's more Microliteish.

Ry, good points about Reserve. Psychology, dude. The survival mechanism outweighs the heroism mechanism every time, so Reserve will get stored. Darn those cautious players! 

Kensanata,


> I can see Greywulf hand-waving all the CR stuff away, however.




You know me too well! 

We've play-tested parties of 0th, 1st-7th (current game level), 10th, 15th and 20th level characters in combat in /actual role-playing situations/ which is very different to using math-theory calculations. I'll write up examples (from memory) tomorrow and drop them into the Macropedia. In each case, Microlite20 was "good enough" to handle what we threw at it. Rules-lite meant we concentrated on role-playing rather than calculations, but the consensus was that they reflected a level of cinematic realism we liked. Of course, I'd love to hear more of other folks too!

popeclayton, thanks for adding to the Conversion notes.

I tend to avoid adding skills in the monster listings so they can be customised when they're needed. All creatures get skill bonuses = HD. If they're intelligent, they get +3 to one of the skills (to reflect training and learning by practice). As the Darkmantle isn't particularly clever, I'd just give it all skills @ +5, though a particularly bright one might get +3 to one - most likely Sub.

Yes, that does mean a Darkmantle has +5 Know. I'd judge MIND to be about 2, so they're at -4. That gives Know+MIND of +1. Enough to know what's tasty (halfling!) and what's dangerous. 

Taking another step back, Microlite20 isn't designed to be the perfect system for all levels of play. It's designed to be small, rules lite and mostly d20 compliant. Given that D&D itself is a kinda funky broken system (which bits are broken and which aren't is open to continual debate) and Microlite20 is D&D with most, but not all, the rules removed, it's never going to _be_ perfect. 

And I like it that way


----------



## jezter6

Wulf,

Thanks for stepping in. I apologize if it sounded like I was attacking the system.
As for the BAB argument, you did hit it right on the head. Yes, there is no BAB term, but effectively, it is +1/level for all classes.

How'd you get a lvl 1 fighter with +6/+1 with STR 18?

I understand that we are able to houserule, and I guess you like your system enough as is. Good luck with it, and I hope it does for you what you want. However, I think it's gotten so lite as to be nigh unplayable for my needs. I'll continue to watch and check out some of the macropedia entries, however.


----------



## kensanata

*Initiative*



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> Taking another step back, Microlite20 isn't designed to be the perfect system for all levels of play. It's designed to be small, rules lite and mostly d20 compliant.




I like your attitude! 



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> Attack in attack bonus order instead of initiative order.




I like it! It takes care of DEX bonus automatically, if and only if you fight with a light weapon! 

Last session I started running the game without a screen, so my players saw what I rolled and were able to peek at my HP notes and the like if they wanted to. I no longer keep the attack bonus of the monsters a secret.

I'll have to see how it feels in terms of confusion. It would mean a "counting down" of attack boni. Perhaps it will work since I basically only need to compare the player's attack boni when looking at one of the critter's boni.

"Ok, my devil here has Glaive+9. Any attack boni higher than that? Ok, the devil goes first! Harr harr harr..."

The exact order of players above or below doesn't really matter, so in practice it might be very easy to handle.

I think I'll add this rule to my NoInitiative page, and I'll playtest it tomorrow evening.


----------



## kensanata

jezter6 said:
			
		

> How'd you get a lvl 1 fighter with +6/+1 with STR 18?




Attack bonus +1 for level, +1 class bonus for fighter, +4 for STR 18…


----------



## greywulf

jezter6 said:
			
		

> Thanks for stepping in. I apologize if it sounded like I was attacking the system.




And none inferred  Debate is good my friend, especially when it's about stuff we all agree is fun.



			
				jezter6 said:
			
		

> How'd you get a lvl 1 fighter with +6/+1 with STR 18?




+4 for STR 18, +1 for 1st level, +1 for being a Fighter (+1 damage too) = +6, so they get an additional attack at +1.



			
				jezter6 said:
			
		

> However, I think it's gotten so lite as to be nigh unplayable for my needs.




That's cool too. I wouldn't want to play Microlite20 all the time; sometimes we want a small, lite system that doesn't get in the way of the role-playing. That's where Microlite20 comes in. Other times we want rules, options, Prestige Classes, feats and a whole gamut of cool RPG coolness. That's when we play D&D, d20 Modern, Traveller, HERO, Rolemaster, WFRP or whatever else suits the game at hand. 

I'm interested to know what's missing for you. You never know, maybe we could add it in


----------



## jezter6

Darn that forgetting about +1 for the fighter.  I knew it was every 5 levels, I just forgot about that first level.


----------



## WSmith

Sorry for the delay guys. Been tooooo busy. 

If I were to remove initiative, my combat would run something like this. 

All combat is chaotic and simultanious. Aside from the exceptions below, all damage is inflicted to all parties each round.

1. Missile weapons will hit charging / closing foes first before they are within striking distance. After that, normal melee occurs if threatened. Otherwise missile fire can continue.
2. Reach weapons hit a charging / closing opponent first on the first round of engagement. Next round is normal melee combat.
3. Spells inflict damage or take effect in the midst of the round. DC increases if caster is within striking distance of foe to simulate "spell interuption."

I have to play this out a few times to iron out the kinks.


----------



## greywulf

I love the phrase "iron out the kinks". It puts an image in my mind of the iconic '60s boy band (better than the beatles, IMHO) being steam pressed. It's going to take a while to shake that mental picture now 

My laptop decided to chew through the hard drive overnight, so I'm going to revive it with a nice cup of re-installed Linux today. That's going to put Big Shiny a day behind schedule (sorry folks), but it's long overdue anyhow. I collect binary clutter, so a clean sweep is a good thing now and then. Hard drive crashes are God's way of telling you to clean up, I guess. 

(Yep, Linux disk-crashes too. It's a hardware stoopid power management thing that did it during a write. I've run fsck, got loads of lost+found files that I could put back in place, but a re-install is quicker in the long run. So I'm in XP now, which feels like eating a slice of dry bread then you want a four course meal. Ah well.)

I had planned to start on the playtest notes later today too, so I'll ask a question instead.

*What format for the playtest notes would be of most use to you? *

We've got characters stated out in a big table for all levels 1-10, 15, and 20, so that's going to go in the Macropedia.

I'll put up a PlaytestNotes page with links to each level's sample combat(s). Those pages will show the stats of the characters and monsters involved.

I'm thinking a format like this:



> *PCs*
> Hans, Human Fighter-1
> STR16 DEX 14 MIND 12
> Phys +5, others @ +2
> AC17 (Chain + shield), 21hp
> Longsword +5 1d8+4
> 
> Gordo, Halfling Magi-1
> etc.
> 
> Ulrik, Dwarf Cleric-1
> etc.
> 
> Veera, Elf Rogue-1
> etc.
> 
> *Critters (EL3)*
> 4 Goblins, HD1d8+1 (5hp), AC15, Morningstar +2 (1d6) or javelin +3 (1d4)
> 
> *Setup*
> The goblins have been stalking the PCs for a while in the dungeon when one of them kicks a loose stone on the floor. Gordo hears (sub+MIND vs, DC10) and combat begins. Neither party has surprise, and they are around 50' apart.
> 
> *Initiative Order (d20+DEX)*
> Veera
> Hans
> Ulrik
> Goblins
> Gordo
> 
> *Round 1*
> Veera fires her shortbow, misses (d20+4 (8) vs AC 15)
> Hans charges
> Ulrik charges
> Goblins throw javelins at Ulrik and Hans, one hits Hans (d20+3 (18) vs AC 14, 3hp lost)
> Gordo uses Magic Missile, one Goblin dead.
> 
> *Round 2*
> etc.




Does that make sense? Clear enough? That's a part of one of the first combat we ran in M20, btw, and the first I'll be writing up.


----------



## greywulf

And in other news: Christa has posted up the first draft of the cover for Big Shiny!!

Here it is on her blog folks. Go tell her what you think 

Also, I need the names of all contributors so we can put them in the OGL license and contributor's page. If you've submitted a House Rule, participated in this discussion, provided an adventure or campaign setting and would like it to go in the Official Microlite20 Macropedia, MAIL ME. I think I've got most of the names, but I wouldn't want to miss any one out, y'know. Credit where it's due.

My address is robin (at) greywulf.net.


----------



## Larcen

What follows are my random thoughts on some points touched upon in recent posts to this thread.  So bear with me please as the following is in no particular order.  Also even if it appears that I start out sounding negative towards M20, I am not.  I just want to point out what I feel are still weaknesses in an otherwise great attempt at simplifying D20.   So here again is another list.  (I like lists.  )

Cookie cutter characters:  To begin with I want to say that sure it’s easy to come up with a level 20 character in M20 in under 20 seconds.  But let’s be honest, that’s because they are all very much the same.  In a sense M20 is so simple all you really need on your character sheet is  something like, “Fighter 16, All average stats with above average STR.”, and your done.  The rest is just math that hasn't been done yet.  That’s both good and bad.  Mainly bad over the long haul as players are going to want better customization at some point.

Clarification on no negative bonuses:  A small point here.  No negative bonuses does not mean subpar stats (and the characters we all love)  go away.  It just means they are represented differently.   You can still have a low INT fighter, only now the average bonus will be 5 so his bonus of 2 in intelligence IS low.  So yes, even fantasy characters need not be perfect.

High level fights are too short:  Fights between high level characters ending in a single round are not fun.  As it has been mentioned this means these fights all come down to the initiative roll and I agree.  Epic fighters need epic fights.  Not: “Surprise!  Your 20th level character is dead.”  Your latest suggestion that Init be dropped in favor of attack bonus order is good, but I am not sure a rules light game should ever have fighters attacking 3, 4, 5 or 6 times in a single round.  That’s a lot of redundant dice rolling.  If what  you really want are high level fighters doing massive damage, then give them a single massive damage bonus, not 6 rolls to make.  Better yet, don’t give them a massive damage bonus and instead let them win by a battle of attrition.  Long drawn out battles at high level are not only expected but they allow time for things to develop, tactics to be reevaluated, and mutual respect to build.  That’s epic.  

Extra stats are OK:  I don’t mind having an extra stat like CHA.  I think streamlining character generation and whats recorded on your PC sheet is good but not whats important in a “lite” game.   Character generation is only done once per character.   What’s more important to simplify I feel are the mechanics that come after character generation, the rules used during play.  M20 is appealing to me not because it dropped 3 stats, but because it dropped AoO, all the different action types, feats, large lists of skills, highly detailed spell descriptions, etc.  That sort of stuff is what bogs the game down and require frequent lookups, not having an extra stat or two recorded on your sheet.  Your CHA value, for instance, will hardly ever change during course of play.  Besides, as DM I would rather have the stat and not need it than need it and not have it and then have to slow down the game while I come up with an ad-hoc alternative for it.   Also if you are willing to hand wave CHA away and suggest that that  is what roleplaying is for, then why stop there…you might as well hand wave the Communication skill away too and use roleplaying for it as well. 

But enough about CHA ,since you already stated it’s a good optional rule in M20.  Also enough of  the negatives for now.  Here is something I really liked in a recent post and want to see more of:

Skill use examples rock:  



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> Phys+STR - Bash down a door, swim a stream, lift a corpse
> Phys+DEX - Climb a rope, dodge a flame trap, jump away from a Goblin's car (don't ask)
> Phys+MIND - To judo throw a foe
> Sub+STR - escape from ropes,
> Sub+DEX - Hide, Move silently, disable a trap, palm a coin
> Sub+MIND - Listen, search, spot, disguise
> Comm+STR - Intimidate the Goblins, outstare an Ogre
> Comm+DEX - juggling act, hand signals, ride a horse, forge documents
> Comm+MIND - Influence a crowd or individual, calm an animal, some Perform skills
> Know+STR - find a foe's weak point, blacksmithing
> Know+DEX - most Craft skills, many Perform skills
> Know+MIND - research, streetwise knowledge, gather info, recall facts




This is an excellent list and I think you should expand upon it if you have the time since its so useful.  But obviously don’t include it in the core rules.  Instead keep it the way it was intended, helpful suggestions but not more rules to memorize.

Proposed classless system:  Let me finish off with a quick writeup of some more suggestions of my own for M20.  Basically it’s a quick system I just put together which I think cover most of my perceived weaker points in M20, such as non-unique characters.   Sorry if it comes across as another “95% system”.  But feel free to pick and choose anything you may like.   My intention was to try and create a classless system where the feel for the familiar classes can still be created.  Of course, I also incorporated all the things I like, e.g. CHA and INT.   You will note I gave in to negative bonuses, for now.   

~~~~~~~~~

*CLASSLESS M20*

Stats per M20, but using INT instead of MIND, and adding CHA.

Drop the base stats after they are generated, and record the bonuses (or penalties) only.

Use the Phys skill  (plus Str or Dex) for attacks but not for damage. 

BASIC BONUSES						
(All PCs get these starting with 1st level)						
•	Basic equipment appropriate to profession.  Nothing should give bonuses except for armor below. 
•	STR+ D6/level for HPs					
•	+1 to any ability at levels 4, 8, 12,  etc.					
•	+1 to two diff skills every level OR…						
•	+2 one-time bonus to any subskill.   
Sample subskills are:  locksmith, forester, trapmaster, merchant, swordsman, bowman, and other DM created or approved.  This stacks with the relevant skill bonus.  For example Sub + 2 for locksmith + DEX to pick a lock.  A subskill can never stack with another.			

ARMOR USAGE						
(At 1st level, pick one from this list.  PC is assumed to have basic armor of the type chosen.)
•	Can use arcane items (not scrolls), and wear no armor.
•	Can sneak attack (+Sub to damage), and wear light or less armor.
•	Can use two weapons simultaneously at a reduced penalty, and wear medium or less armor.
•	Can use divine items (not scrolls), and wear medium or less armor and shields.
•	Can use all armors and shields.  PC can start with up to platemail. 

BACKGROUND BONUS
(At 1st level, pick one from this list)
•	+2 to any skill
•	Rage or Chi. (+4 to STR for duration of DM approved situations)
•	Can shape change to any one non-magical animal type (dogs, cats, fishes, birds, etc) while HPs are over half.
•	Special inheritance.  A minor magic item OR extravagant starting equipment.  DM must approve player's choices or select items himself. 
•	Any other DM created or approved bonus based on the character’s background and comparitable to the above

LEVELING BONUS
(At 1st level, pick one from this list.  Cannot change selection after that, unless DM approves a major character change.)
•	D10 HD instead of D6 per level.
•	Select 2 arcane spells per level.  Castable while wearing no armor.  Can use scrolls of chosen spells.
•	Select 2 divine spells per level.  Castable with medium armor or less.  Can use scrolls of chosen spells.
•	Select 1 arcane OR 1 divine spell per level.  Castable while wearing no armor.  Can use scrolls of chosen spells.
•	+1 to three different skills per level, instead of two.  May be applied as one-time +2 bonus to a subskill and +1 to skill outside that subskill
•	+1 damage per 2 levels with a chosen weapon type. (Note that there are no multi attacks in this system.)
•	Any other DM created or approved bonus based on the character’s profession and comparitable to the above

SPELLCASTING:  Spellcasting works like in M20, but the spells known are limited to those chosen at each level, per above.  Treat this like the selection of spells Sorcerers have.  As long as the spell selected is a castable level, there is no restriction on the spells chosen other than character concept.  Just remember low level spells cost less to cast so it makes sense to maintain a good selection of those.  Character starts with 4 free zero level spells and can take 4 more instead of a higher level spell.   The idea is that having the entire list of spells available to a spellcaster makes it HARDER to play a spellcaster, not easier, as we are trying to do with a rules-lite system.  Just jot down the few spells you know on your sheet, and go.  Same goes for DMing NPCs.  I dont want to have to run through all the spells in game in my head to decide which spell the NPC will cast.  

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As you can see with these short simple rules the four core classes can be easily created as well as druid, ranger, monk, barbarian, and other interesting character types.  For example, a fighter who was trained by the church to use cleric devices but not spells.  A clergy bodyguard or a variation on Paladins?  Or the extra damage ability for monkish types (weaponless or otherwise) who choose doing extra damage instead of better HD.  Personally I would love to see the raging monk this system allows.     For normal fighters, the D&D game went through many successful editions before they got level based damage  bonuses.  They will do just fine with only magic and STR again in a rules lite system.  Let them have their epic battles.  Finally remember its ok to have a somewhat detailed character generation system...if the rest of the system is still light.  Hopefully something like this strikes a good balance between simple characters and unique characters.


That’s it for now.   As always, keep up the great work…..

-Larcen


----------



## kensanata

Larcen said:
			
		

> In a sense M20 is so simple all you really need on your character sheet is  something like, “Fighter 16, All average stats with above average STR.”, and your done.  The rest is just math that hasn't been done yet.  That’s both good and bad.  Mainly bad over the long haul as players are going to want better customization at some point.




I actually hope that players will continue to invest time and energy into a background, integrating themselves into the campaign world, even if it has no direct effect on the dice rolled. As a GM I'd certainly love to make it worth their while and have it affect the world around them.



			
				Larcen said:
			
		

> As it has been mentioned this means these fights all come down to the initiative roll and I agree.  Epic fighters need epic fights.  Not: “Surprise!  Your 20th level character is dead.”




I'm still interested in actual reports on playtesting. My players are now on level 2/3, so I can't comment – yet. But I think it is obvious to all of us that “Surprise!  Your 20th level character is dead” is a lousy proposition. And since none of us actually want it, and since Greywulf is the only one who actually did any playtesting and liked what he saw, I think it's fair to assume that the result is empathically not “Surprise!  Your 20th level character is dead!”

I'm looking forward to Greywulf's combat tests.



			
				Larcen said:
			
		

> Skill use examples rock: […] This is an excellent list and I think you should expand upon it if you have the time since its so useful.




Greywulf posted it on the Macropedia: Skill Use Examples.


----------



## greywulf

I'll start work on the playtest write-ups tomorrow. And you're right, 20th level characters *in play* most definitely don't die in one round. Or two. Or three (unless you're really dumb, of course). 

Larcen, your classless suggestions are good. I'll stick them in the Macropedia (with your permission, of course) when I'm not knee-deep in Linux configuration 

Back tomorrow, peeps. Still.


----------



## jezter6

kensanata said:
			
		

> I'm still interested in actual reports on playtesting. My players are now on level 2/3, so I can't comment – yet. But I think it is obvious to all of us that “Surprise!  Your 20th level character is dead” is a lousy proposition. And since none of us actually want it, and since Greywulf is the only one who actually did any playtesting and liked what he saw, I think it's fair to assume that the result is empathically not “Surprise!  Your 20th level character is dead!”
> 
> I'm looking forward to Greywulf's combat tests.




While not a 'combat test,' greywulf's own comments about the deadliness of Lvl 20 on 20 combat show exactly what both of us (Larcen and myself) are distinctly concerned about:



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> Dunno what you think, but I'd say those two would be a fair fight for each other. The elf would likely get the drop on the Dwarf and pepper him with arrows taking (say) three-quarter of his HP before the Dwarf acts like a blender and chews the Elf up in a dervish of blood and guts. He'd get at least 5 hits on the Elf easily in one round (probably more) doing an average of 21hp damage each. That's over a 100hp damage. Take off Derek's shield and give him a two-handed waraxe (x2 STR damage). Ouch.
> 
> Of course, in another situation (ambush!), the Elf would win before the Dwarf so much as lifted his axe.
> 
> OK, it' might not be perfect, but it's balanced enough for me. Just like a bicycle.




He later said that this was sans magical trappings, but considering that they should scale pretty evenly (IE: the rogue gets +3 armor, the dwarf has a +3 axe). Otherwise it would obviously skew the favor in one direction or another of one had some massive magical armor situation going on.

My major point is that (ignoring the fact that there is no 'BAB' term, yet the net effect is everyone gets BAB +1/level, fighter getting even better) we're creating attack machines way to quickly, and for classes that do not deserve it. AND we are not changing the way AC and HP are derived, so statistically across the board any friend or foe made up with character classes is either going to demolish a monster (with standard AC and attack bonus stats) or be completely decimated by some high HP consuming attacks because they are all at a relatively low level of HP.

Considering the magic user has d6 HP, but loses that while casting spells, puts him back on what a balanced d20 wizard would be averaging a d4 HD over the same levels. However, the m20 MU can stand toe to toe with a d20 mage because the m20 MU has a full d20 fighter attacking bonus. Heck, when spells are goine, the m20 MU can just walk up and pound the living crap out of him with his staff because he can hit 2 or even 3 times per round.

My only though, and reason why it's unplayable, is that m20 destroys the balance of d20 so far that any 1-to-1 conversion is near impossible.

Let's take an Ogre. d20 - it's a CR3 monster. Which means it should stand up to a full party of lvl 3 PCs, taking up approx 25% of resources.

Converting to md20:
Ogre (HP 4d8+11 = 29hp), AC 16, Great Club +8 melee (2d8+7)

In d20 mode, the fighter might hit him that first round, but will only do about 1d8+3 (8) damage. leaving the Ogre with 21hp.
The rogue and cleric fail to hit, wizard gets off a lvl 1 spell for 5. Dropping the ogre to 16.

In md20 mode, the fighter has 2 shots at him. Let's say for argument that he only hits once for the same 8 damage.
Now the expert has the same attack bonus as the d20 fighter would have, so now HE hits them for 8 damage.
Now the cleric has the same attack bonus as the d20 fighter, so now HE hits for 5 damage.
And the wizard casts HIS spell for 5 damage.
Ogre now resides at: 3 HP (that's one lucky ass ogre)

Ogre returns fire with 2 hits. 1 to the fighter (avg 16 dmg) and 1 to the expert (16 dmg).
Chances are that one of those 2 could go down and out at the first round. The ogre won't live to see another day, and chances are 1 PC is dying, the other with maybe 1-4 HP left.

If the fighter would have hit on his 2nd attack (+8/+3 - I think?), and since it's better than the d20 fighter, he probably would have...dead ogre in 1 round.

Had the ogre won initiative, he could have easily taken out 1 PC in round one, and left with 3 HP would have easily killed another in round 2.

My take on it - PCs are too powerful when attacking, but not powerful enough to defend. If 2 PCs die, it's harder than a CR3 encounter. If a CR3 dies in round 1, it's easier than a CR3 encounter. It's ALL about who wins init in this system.


----------



## kensanata

Ok, while eating breakfast this morning I tried the following Ogre fight against my players. These are real player characters, except for Yasu Odong, because I don't have his character sheet here, and I had to advance Yonkyu and Yasu Odong from 2nd level to 3rd.

Kyoshi, Fighter-3, 29hp, STR 16, DEX 12, MIND 8, AC 16, Masterwork Katana+8/+3 (1d10+7)
Myung, Rogue-3, 21hp, STR 12, DEX 18, MIND 9, AC 14, Wakizashi+7/+2 (1d6+1)
Yonkyu, Cleric-3, 23hp, STR 9, DEX 18, MIND 11, AC 14, Takujo+3 (1d6), Kyuu+7/+2 (1d8), Magic+3 ("The Archer")
Yasu Odong, Mage-3, 18hp, STR 5, DEX 11, MIND 14, Tanto+1 (1d4-2), Magic+5

vs.

Ogre, 29hp, AC 16, club+8 (2d8+7).

We're assuming no surprise, no ranged combat, no ambush, and thus I rule that attacks go in order of attack bonus. Since both the ogre and Kyoshi have +8, I rule that the Ogre goes first, then the exact order of players doesn't matter for the rest of the round.

Ogre rolls 10+8, does 12 damage to Kyoshi – down to 17.
Kyoshi rolls 17+8, does 10 damage to Ogre – down to 19.
Kyoshi rolls 2+3, misses.
Myung tries to hide, rolls 4 + sub (7) + DEX bonus (4) = 15
Ogre tries to spot, rolls 3 + HD (4) = 7, fails.
Yonkyu casts Bull's Strength on Kyoshi (giving him STR 20), uses 5hp – down to 18.
Yasu Odong casts Sleep on Ogre, rolls 10 + Magic Attack Bonus (5) = 15, uses 3hp – down to 15
Ogre tries to resist, rolls 15 + HD (4) = 19, succeeds.
Ogre rolls 8+8, does 17 damage to Kyoshi – down to 0!
Myung attacks from the shadows, rolls 12+7, does 5+7 damage – down to 7.
(In an alternate universe the sneak failed and he rolled 12 and 15, doing 5 and 6 damage, bringing the ogre down to 8.)
Yonkyu sees that the ogre is badly hurt and rolls 18, does 3 damage – down to 4.
Yasu Odong casts Sleep on Ogre, rolls 9 + Magic Attack Bonus (5) = 14, uses 3hp – down to 12
Ogre tries to resist, rolls 6 + HD (4) = 10, fails, and will fall asleep next round!
Ogre rolls 15+8, does 20 damage to Myung – down to 1!
Myung rolls 9+7, does 5 damage to ogre – killing it before sleep takes effect.

Party wins!

Yonkyu casts Cure Light Wounds twice on Kyoshi & Myung, costing him 12 hp total, healing 2d8+6 for each: 15 for Kyoshi and 14 for Myung.

Status:
Kyoshi @ 15/29hp
Myung @ 15/21hp
Yonkyu @ 11/23hp
Yasu Odong @ 12/18hp
58% of max.

Conclusion:
1. Not a point landing with the party ending at 58% instead of 75%.
2. Combat was interesting I think.
3. The ogre having the initiative did not decide the fight.


----------



## greywulf

Very good example, Kensanata. That's how we find combat to play through too. It's fast, exciting and fluid. I think you've proved that "attack in to-hit bonus order" works well too. That's good. We're going to be playtesting it, but not for  few weeks. I'm starting the Ptolus campaign (using D&D with all volume turned up to 11) tomorrow, so that's going to keep us busy, methinks 

In our games, combat usually starts some distance away when the opponents spot each other. That tends to means it goes roughly comething like this:

Round 1: missile attacks, fighters charge, spells cast
Round 2: close combat, some critters die (probably)
Round 3: close combat, more critters die, PCs start to sweat
Round 4: PCs win, evil is defeated yet again.

It might go to the fourth round, maybe not.

I think a large part of it is that I play the critters moving around. They pull out of combat, hide behind furniture, jump back to get in a better position, etc. It depends on the critter, largely. Some (like Orcs) would never disengage in combat, but Goblins prefer guerilla tactics. My players don't like Goblins! A typical exchange between a Fighter and an Goblin (say) would bo like this:

Fighter: Charge!
Goblin: Toss javelin
Fighter: Hit with sword (+2 to-hit due to charge)
Goblin: Back away, snarling, hide under table
Fighter: attack (-2 to hit due to cover), miss
Goblin: poke with spear, hits
Fighter: "Come outta there, runt!", attack (-2 to hit due to cover), miss
Goblin: poke with spear, hits
Fighter: "Grrrrrrrrrr", throws table out of the way, hit goblin with sword, goblin dead

That's 5 rounds against a single Goblin. 

Remember that in Microlite20, you only have a single action in a round, so you can move OR attack. By 20th level, there's a lot of maneuvering in combat and jockeying for position involved before a single hit is made. Think about Erol Flynn style cinematic combat with fighters jumping on tables, swinging from ropes, trying to get the high group while their blades briefly clash up until the climax where blades whirl on the rooftop. THAT's epic combat!!!!


----------



## kensanata

greywulf said:
			
		

> Remember that in Microlite20, you only have a single action in a round, so you can move OR attack.




Gah, subtleties of the rules! 

My players are medium humanoids of AD&D 2nd ed abomination subtype… They feel that a retreating opponent deserves an extra free attack in their back with a +2 bonus. Thanks for reminding me.


----------



## Pilsnerquest

Okay, I'll play devil's advocate for the last two posts.

Now, I personally don't give a rat's arse about how much party resources should be used in one encounter but 42% compared to the recommended 25% is most definitely a point. Again, that's only if you feel the percentile in a certain $29.95 (U.S.) book is a logical figure. (An ogre though, may be a tad rough for an example with their large strength bonus compared to their CR or EL)

The ogre had initiative and did not win the fight, but, the first thing done was to use the alternate initiative method? Should we be using the "attack in to-hit bonus order" for combat as opposed to the old method to prevent one-sided fights?

I think the main concern, at least originally, wasn't quite epic combat but epic level combat. With attack bonuses and the number of attacks out-stripping defense things look pretty bad for the loser of initiative or for combat lasting more than 1 round. That dwarf in the previous pages example with the whopping 8 attacks is pretty scary, then the elf with 7 attacks himself. (Offense out-stripping defense is relatively true for D&D D20 too, though a 20th level fighter in D&D has 4 attacks) 

How does the monsters HD=attack bonus play into it all? Do monsters stack up the way PC's do? If so maybe a staggered level attack bonus gain, similar to the ones found in the PHB pg. 22. This would lower the attack bonuses a tad and lower the number of multiple attacks. Possibly have monsters rated by this same table in the PHB for attack bonus and their CR/EL setting?  


Pilsnerquest


----------



## greywulf

Just a thought to toss into the pot 'cos I'm busy right now........

How about we set a maximum of 4 attacks per round, regardless of bonus? Does that help alleviate everyone's concerns?

(I don't see it myself, but still..... A round is an arbritary term - there's no difference between one guy taking seven rounds to kill a beastie, and a 20th level guys taking one "round" to hit it seven times. Combat is faster, but that's at it should be. Don't get hung over the concept of "a round". The same dice are rolled either way. allbeit with higher bonuses. It goes like this:

Fighter: try to hit
BBEG: try to hit
Fighter: try to hit
BBEG: try to hit
Fighter: try to hit
BBEG: try to hit
Fighter: try to hit
BBEG: try to hit
Fighter: try to hit
BBEG: try to hit
Fighter: try to hit
BBEG: try to hit
Fighter: try to hit
BBEG: try to hit

Give or take a few hit attempts due to initiative/to-hit bonus, whatever. I dunno.

(close bracket) 
)


----------



## Land Outcast

> How about we set a maximum of 4 attacks per round, regardless of bonus? Does that help alleviate everyone's concerns?



Motion supported.  
(Yes, I'm still here... previous post was in page 5 or so)


----------



## Darrell

greywulf said:
			
		

> Just a thought to toss into the pot 'cos I'm busy right now........
> 
> How about we set a maximum of 4 attacks per round, regardless of bonus? Does that help alleviate everyone's concerns?




Heh.      I guess I've been messin' up a bit.    

Because that's how far the example description went in the original .rtf document (which is the source for my 'personal' m20 rules document), I've been giving 'em a maximum of _three_ attacks per round.

As far as combat being 'too short,'  I personally feel there's no such thing.  We toyed for a while with a simple 'opposed roll' combat.  This pitted the attacker's (the party initiating the attack) STR against the opponent's AC.  The better roll won, period.  It worked in the abstract, but fell apart when we started trying to figure how to handle hit point losses to the winning side.

My group and I would love a system that would let us handle combat with a single roll, so we could get any type of combat out of the way ultra-quick and get back to role-playing.

Combat doesn't get as much play in our games as it does in most, I guess.  The most common rolls made for us in m20 are CHA vs. MIND (or Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate vs. Sense Motive in D&D).  Of course, sometimes you just have to break down and start swingin' swords.  

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## kensanata

*Attack limits (or not)*

It's interesting to see how other DMs run their games. I usually try to alternate between roleplaying/investigative sessions and sessions heading up to a fight. And unlike Darrell, I find that most of my players long for the dice at least once per session. 

As for limits on multiple attacks: If the fights are more or less balanced, I think all these rolls at -20 and -25 for your fifth and sixth attack are basically wasted. You'll never hit, and thus you're just trying to roll a natural 20. I wouldn't mind loosing those rolls, even though they don't hurt much. My players seem to enjoy rolling a 20. 

When fights involve swarms or hordes, however, then all these -20, -25, etc. rolls still have a chance to hit (and kill), basically simulating cleaving and related feats. Since my players enjoy rolling a 20, and since I don't want to introduce extra rules later when I send them against skeleton or goblin armies, I think I'll just stick with the current rules.

Darrell, can you shed some light on this? I fear that since your group doesn't enjoy fighting so much, you haven't sent them against hordes of critters... But if you did, I'd be interested in the result.


----------



## kensanata

greywulf said:
			
		

> A round is an arbitrary term - there's no difference between one guy taking seven rounds to kill a beastie, and a 20th level guys taking one "round" to hit it seven times. Combat is faster, but that's at it should be. Don't get hung over the concept of "a round". The same dice are rolled either way. albeit with higher bonuses.




I just realized that all things are not equal, if you don't change the spells. A Bull's Strength spell will have a lot more impact when fighters get to roll and hit more often.

Go, go, go, support spells!!!


----------



## Darrell

kensanata said:
			
		

> It's interesting to see how other DMs run their games. I usually try to alternate between roleplaying/investigative sessions and sessions heading up to a fight. And unlike Darrell, I find that most of my players long for the dice at least once per session.




Oh, they roll their fair share of dice; just not (usually) for combat.  



			
				kensanata said:
			
		

> Darrell, can you shed some light on this? I fear that since your group doesn't enjoy fighting so much, you haven't sent them against hordes of critters... But if you did, I'd be interested in the result.




Well, they've been involved in one orc invasion since we've been using m20, and there was a good semblance of a 'horde' involved in that.    It ran pretty much by the book, save that I do allow fighters a sort of a Cleave ability (I think it's from earlier in the thread, but don't know exactly where) when fighting against large numbers of opponents (10+).  If their attack kills an opponent, and there are 'leftover' hit points in damage, I let 'em fall onto another opponent.  

Let's say 'Bob the Fighter' is involved in combat with an goblin horde, and his successful attack does 12 hp of damage.  The goblin he's attacking is killed after applying the first 5 hp of his attack.  The remaining 7 hp are applied to another goblin; and 5 more hit points dispatch this foe...leaving 2 hp 'overage,' which are dealt to yet another goblin.  Rudimentary, yes, but effective in keeping the combat moving along.  

I know you weren't looking for 'new rules,' but you asked how _I_ dealt with it.  

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## Larcen

greywulf said:
			
		

> Larcen, your classless suggestions are good. I'll stick them in the Macropedia (with your permission, of course) when I'm not knee-deep in Linux configuration




Sure, go for it... as long as you realize I just threw those together in one night.  Might be nice to see some kind of testing on them.  At the very least some sample characters drawn up to compare them with the regular M20 system.



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> Fighter: Charge!
> Goblin: Toss javelin
> Fighter: Hit with sword (+2 to-hit due to charge)
> Goblin: Back away, snarling, hide under table
> Fighter: attack (-2 to hit due to cover), miss
> Goblin: poke with spear, hits
> Fighter: "Come outta there, runt!", attack (-2 to hit due to cover), miss
> Goblin: poke with spear, hits
> Fighter: "Grrrrrrrrrr", throws table out of the way, hit goblin with sword, goblin dead
> 
> That's 5 rounds against a single Goblin.
> 
> Remember that in Microlite20, you only have a single action in a round, so you can move OR attack....




How did the fighter close and attack after the goblin stepped back if he could only do one action per round?

If the fighter could only close then the goblin's tactics would make more sense.  As it is, the goblin is giving up a whole attack in order to give the fighter -2 on all future attacks (until the fighter gets rid of the table).  Not sure it's worth it.  Depends on the numbers involved I guess.



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> How about we set a maximum of 4 attacks per round, regardless of bonus? Does that help alleviate everyone's concerns?




I second this as well, since I am of the camp that a lite game should not have many attacks per round.  In fact, 4 is still too high I think..



			
				Darrell said:
			
		

> The most common rolls made for us in m20 are CHA vs. MIND (or Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate vs. Sense Motive in D&D).




Yay! Another person who feels CHA is one of the more useful stats in a game with lots of NPC interaction.


----------



## Darrell

Larcen said:
			
		

> I second this as well, since I am of the camp that a lite game should not have many attacks per round.  In fact, 4 is still too high I think..




I daresay I agree.    



			
				Larcen said:
			
		

> Yay! Another person who feels CHA is one of the more useful stats in a game with lots of NPC interaction.




Yep!      That's why one of the primary changes I made to my microlite20 house rules was puttin' CHA back in.  It's _way_ too important in my games.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## jezter6

kensanata said:
			
		

> Ok, while eating breakfast this morning I tried the following Ogre fight against my players. These are real player characters, except for Yasu Odong, because I don't have his character sheet here, and I had to advance Yonkyu and Yasu Odong from 2nd level to 3rd.
> 
> Kyoshi, Fighter-3, 29hp, STR 16, DEX 12, MIND 8, AC 16, Masterwork Katana+8/+3 (1d10+7)
> Myung, Rogue-3, 21hp, STR 12, DEX 18, MIND 9, AC 14, Wakizashi+7/+2 (1d6+1)
> Yonkyu, Cleric-3, 23hp, STR 9, DEX 18, MIND 11, AC 14, Takujo+3 (1d6), Kyuu+7/+2 (1d8), Magic+3 ("The Archer")
> Yasu Odong, Mage-3, 18hp, STR 5, DEX 11, MIND 14, Tanto+1 (1d4-2), Magic+5
> 
> vs.
> 
> Ogre, 29hp, AC 16, club+8 (2d8+7).
> 
> We're assuming no surprise, no ranged combat, no ambush, and thus I rule that attacks go in order of attack bonus. Since both the ogre and Kyoshi have +8, I rule that the Ogre goes first, then the exact order of players doesn't matter for the rest of the round.
> 
> Ogre rolls 10+8, does 12 damage to Kyoshi – down to 17.
> Kyoshi rolls 17+8, does 10 damage to Ogre – down to 19.
> Kyoshi rolls 2+3, misses.
> Myung tries to hide, rolls 4 + sub (7) + DEX bonus (4) = 15
> Ogre tries to spot, rolls 3 + HD (4) = 7, fails.
> Yonkyu casts Bull's Strength on Kyoshi (giving him STR 20), uses 5hp – down to 18.
> Yasu Odong casts Sleep on Ogre, rolls 10 + Magic Attack Bonus (5) = 15, uses 3hp – down to 15
> Ogre tries to resist, rolls 15 + HD (4) = 19, succeeds.
> Ogre rolls 8+8, does 17 damage to Kyoshi – down to 0!
> Myung attacks from the shadows, rolls 12+7, does 5+7 damage – down to 7.
> (In an alternate universe the sneak failed and he rolled 12 and 15, doing 5 and 6 damage, bringing the ogre down to 8.)
> Yonkyu sees that the ogre is badly hurt and rolls 18, does 3 damage – down to 4.
> Yasu Odong casts Sleep on Ogre, rolls 9 + Magic Attack Bonus (5) = 14, uses 3hp – down to 12
> Ogre tries to resist, rolls 6 + HD (4) = 10, fails, and will fall asleep next round!
> Ogre rolls 15+8, does 20 damage to Myung – down to 1!
> Myung rolls 9+7, does 5 damage to ogre – killing it before sleep takes effect.
> 
> Party wins!
> 
> Yonkyu casts Cure Light Wounds twice on Kyoshi & Myung, costing him 12 hp total, healing 2d8+6 for each: 15 for Kyoshi and 14 for Myung.
> 
> Status:
> Kyoshi @ 15/29hp
> Myung @ 15/21hp
> Yonkyu @ 11/23hp
> Yasu Odong @ 12/18hp
> 58% of max.
> 
> Conclusion:
> 1. Not a point landing with the party ending at 58% instead of 75%.
> 2. Combat was interesting I think.
> 3. The ogre having the initiative did not decide the fight.




With a +8, why didn't the ogre get 2 attacks?
How did you figure HPs for the PCs? they all seem unnaturally high. Even the mage with an STR 5 has 18HP (rolling max d6 for all 3 levels).


----------



## kensanata

jezter6 said:
			
		

> With a +8, why didn't the ogre get 2 attacks?




The ogre gets one +8 attack because that's what it says in the MM – and I'm keeping conversion to a minimum. Now, if this was a ogre with fighter levels and all that, I'd model him as a fighter using the stats given. But as it is, this is the standard ogre. In the beginning, I used to give monsters the same kind of multi-attacks, but then Greywulf mentioned somewhere in this thread that he just used them as-is.



			
				jezter6 said:
			
		

> How did you figure HPs for the PCs? they all seem unnaturally high. Even the mage with an STR 5 has 18HP (rolling max d6 for all 3 levels).




The mage gets STR + 3d6, so the average dice roll was (18-5)/3 = 4⅓. The rogue's average dice roll was (21-12)/3 = 3. I guess you forgot to add the STR stat at first level.


----------



## Land Outcast

> When fights involve swarms or hordes, however, then all these -20, -25, etc. rolls still have a chance to hit (and kill), basically simulating cleaving and related feats. Since my players enjoy rolling a 20, and since I don't want to introduce extra rules later when I send them against skeleton or goblin armies, I think I'll just stick with the current rules.



I group mooks in squads of 3-4, adding up their hp into a common pool... no need for more rolls.


----------



## kensanata

Land Outcast said:
			
		

> I group mooks in squads of 3-4, adding up their hp into a common pool... no need for more rolls.




When I send my players with some troops against the undead army later in this campaign, I'm planning on using the Mass Combat Made Easy option for M20. Can you provide more detail on the common pool thing? I understand dividing them into squads...

(The favorite example for mass combat all of my players know is the one dungeon in Bards Tale on the C64 with 4x99 barbarians... Those were the days, haha.)


----------



## greywulf

Kensanata, you're showing your age. And mine. I remembered Bard's Tale immediately, and fondly. Nostalgia, eh?

I've tried to sit down several times today and start to pull the playtest notes into some kind of shape, and also to collate some of this (huge!) thread into some kind of organised summary. Each time, something has distracted me. Darn. Hmmm. This is going to take longer than I expected! Ok, leave it with me. It'll get done.



			
				Larcen said:
			
		

> How did the fighter close and attack after the goblin stepped back if he could only do one action per round?




Larcen, you're thinking like someone who uses miniatures and a board. Stop it immediately  

We use imagination. It has no scale, and therefore no limits. 

Oh, ok then. Let's say the Goblin sidestepped under the table into another square that's still adjacent to the Fighter. There. It still sounds too much like Boardgamery to me though.

EDIT: Trivia fact: Larcen, yours was the 983rd reply in this post. There are 983 words in the current Microlite20 Core Rules. So now this thread contains more posts than the text it's talking about. In order to the SRD to do that, there would need to be over 517,000 posts in the thread, taking up almost 13,000 pages. That's probably more pages than are in the ENWorld forum right now. If printed, those posts would circle Faerun five times. Or something.

Thought you'd like to know!


----------



## Larcen

greywulf said:
			
		

> EDIT: Trivia fact: Larcen, yours was the 983rd reply in this post. There are 983 words in the current Microlite20 Core Rules. So now this thread contains more posts than the text it's talking about. In order to the SRD to do that, there would need to be over 517,000 posts in the thread, taking up almost 13,000 pages. That's probably more pages than are in the ENWorld forum right now. If printed, those posts would circle Faerun five times. Or something.
> 
> Thought you'd like to know!




Cool!  Do I win a free copy of Microlite20?


----------



## Land Outcast

kensanata said:
			
		

> Can you provide more detail on the common pool thing? I understand dividing them into squads...



Oh, as simple as you can think it is: picture the classical image of the hero in the middle of the battle, dropping enemies by the dozen.

Instead of using identical soldiers A and B, I use this:
HP: A+B
AC: A+2
Attack: A+2
Damage: A+(B's average damage /2)

A, B, and C:
HP: A+B+C
AC: A+4
Attack: A+4
Damage: A+(B's average damage /2)+(C's average damage/2) = A+B

once they lose their total hp (given I use them at higher levels, usually it results to be in one round) the squad dies. Maybe in big numbers it results incoherent, but I never use them in numbers greater than 5


----------



## jezter6

kensanata said:
			
		

> The ogre gets one +8 attack because that's what it says in the MM – and I'm keeping conversion to a minimum. Now, if this was a ogre with fighter levels and all that, I'd model him as a fighter using the stats given. But as it is, this is the standard ogre. In the beginning, I used to give monsters the same kind of multi-attacks, but then Greywulf mentioned somewhere in this thread that he just used them as-is.
> 
> The mage gets STR + 3d6, so the average dice roll was (18-5)/3 = 4⅓. The rogue's average dice roll was (21-12)/3 = 3. I guess you forgot to add the STR stat at first level.




Got it, I was thinking STR 'bonus' not the whole STR stat. That changes things a little.
I still stand by my arguments, however.


----------



## kensanata

jezter6 said:
			
		

> I still stand by my arguments, however.




Hehe, and here I was thinking I had refuted your very argument by performing an experiment that invalidated your prediction...


----------



## greywulf

Folks, I've amended the Revised Core Rules to read:



> Multiple attacks with the first weapon can be made using cumulative -5 penalties as long as the total attack bonus remains positive. For example, if the total bonus is +12, three attacks can be made at +12, +7, and +2. If a second weapon is used, there are two attacks with the first weapon to be made at +10 and +5, and another attack with the second weapon at +10.
> 
> No more that four attacks may be made in a single round, regardless of bonus. If fighting with two weapons, this increases the limit to five attacks, at least one of which must be with the second weapon. For example, if s Rogue has a total bonus of +20, he could attack with paired shortswords at +18/+18/+13/+8/+3 or a single shortsword at +20/+15/+10/+5.




There you go. Maximum four attacks in a round, though a Two-Weapon Fighting dude gets an extra one to make it five. Hope that resolves that one for good 

I've retro-ed it into the Core Rules too, for completeness. They're going to be replaced by the Revised ones by the end of the week anyway. Stay tuned for more info, etc.

Also, I've started work on the Playtest Notes. The Iconic Fighter is up, stated for levels 1-10, 15 and 20. I'll add the Rogue, Cleric and Mage over the next day or two, then start pushing out the playtest notes themselves.

All this is going into Big Shiny too. Tables. Ick.

Comments, yadda yadda.


----------



## eyebeams

greywulf said:
			
		

> Folks, I've amended the Revised Core Rules to read:
> 
> 
> 
> There you go. Maximum four attacks in a round, though a Two-Weapon Fighting dude gets an extra one to make it five. Hope that resolves that one for good
> 
> I've retro-ed it into the Core Rules too, for completeness. They're going to be replaced by the Revised ones by the end of the week anyway. Stay tuned for more info, etc.
> 
> Also, I've started work on the Playtest Notes. The Iconic Fighter is up, stated for levels 1-10, 15 and 20. I'll add the Rogue, Cleric and Mage over the next day or two, then start pushing out the playtest notes themselves.
> 
> All this is going into Big Shiny too. Tables. Ick.
> 
> Comments, yadda yadda.





You should probably make it *base* attack bonus, as the way it's worded, I can attack more by getting additional bonuses.


----------



## greywulf

eyebeams said:
			
		

> You should probably make it *base* attack bonus, as the way it's worded, I can attack more by getting additional bonuses.




Yes, you can in Microlite20. There's is no concept of "base attack bonus" at all. If someone has a total to-hit of +5 and picks up a +1 Longsword, they get +6/+1. No, it's not like D&D. Yes, I think it's better, because it's simpler.

When it comes to Monsters from the SRD which have just a +8 to-hit listed, I tend to play them as that, not giving them a second attack (though I could). I picture large flailing but devastating attacks, rather than precision from training. 

Make sense?


----------



## jezter6

kensanata said:
			
		

> Hehe, and here I was thinking I had refuted your very argument by performing an experiment that invalidated your prediction...




Good luck with that. I'm a hard head and don't budge sometimes.

Having STR (full stat score and not just stat bonus) certainly helps, but IMHO only at low levels. It certainly makes it less deadly early, which I'll admit I will change my opinion of that.

However, I still think that in the long run, PCs will not survive long. Not with multiple attacks and only 80-some odd HP going into the 20th level range.


----------



## jezter6

greywulf said:
			
		

> Yes, you can in Microlite20. There's is no concept of "base attack bonus" at all. If someone has a total to-hit of +5 and picks up a +1 Longsword, they get +6/+1. No, it's not like D&D. Yes, I think it's better, because it's simpler.
> 
> When it comes to Monsters from the SRD which have just a +8 to-hit listed, I tend to play them as that, not giving them a second attack (though I could). I picture large flailing but devastating attacks, rather than precision from training.
> 
> Make sense?




Actually...no. 

There IS a concept of base attack bonus...it's LEVEL. You can name it what you want, but it's still a base attack bonus (no matter what, you have LEVEL +/- modifiers...that's what makes it a base).

With all PC classes able to get multiple attacks as low as lvls 1-3, not giving the ogre his due is making him signifigantly weaker in comparison.

Aside from the +1 to hit at lvls 1, 5, 10, 15, 20...I still see no need to be a fighter at all outside of the ability to wear armor. A high STR expert will kick as much behind as everyone else. Everyone gets a full BAB anyways, so they'll be able to hit any monster within a fair CR range without any problems at all,


----------



## greywulf

There you go. The Iconic stats are done for levels 1-10, 15 and 20. There's links to all of them from the Playtest Notes page. I think the numbers are right - I need to take a break and double-check them tomorrow.

Note that these iconics are with basic equipment only, so add magic items (and pepper) to taste. I did it that way because it's much easier to add stuff to the stats than it is to take it away. For the playtests themselves, these stats are used, plus equipment suitable for their level. A few of the playtests we're going to run again because:

a) the setup was too complete to explain in a brief paragraph. I mean, how can I explain why the adventurers ended up hanging upside down below a rope bridge while being attacked by hobgoblins from above? 
b) the PCs had NPC help. That makes for more complexity and not suitable for use as fair examples
c) as DM I fudged a few of the rolls. Again, not a good playtest (but fun though!)

and

d) they're just not interesting.

Otherwise, I'm just slotting these stats into my existing playtest notes so there's consistency of scale. You'll be able to see how a 5th level party of the same heroes fairs as compared to their 1st level counterparts, etc.

That's the plan, anyway 

EDIT: Jezter, if it makes you feel better to call it BAB, that's fine by me. But it's not  M20 works with totals only, not "parts of the total given a special name so we can hang more rules off it" as it is with D&D.


----------



## WSmith

I never really want to be that guy that interjects only a opinion with little to add, but...

I just want to say I don't bother with the whole multiple attacks thing. I just use the quasi-cleave option I commented on in the Macropedia. It works great. Plus it is simple.  I know not everyone would feel the same, but that is okay. I am different.  Although I never thought to just apply the straight damage to another target without an attack roll like Darrell said, that does give me an idea. 

If the total attack bonuses alone exceed the AC of the creature, roll only damage as the hit would be automatic. The remainder of bonuses that exceed the AC, are applied to an actual additional attack roll. 

For example, Fred the Fighting Freak Is attacking a large Tiger-rat (AC 17) with a longsword. His total bonuses to hit are 20. He would only roll 1d8 + any bonuses to damage on the first attack, and roll 1d20 + 3 to hit and 1d8 + any damage bonuses for the second attack. (20 - 17 = 3)   

BTW, I also like CHA, so blahhh!


----------



## WSmith

BTW, the option I posted above might not work for everyone. It does forme since I am from the school of thought that a natural 20 should NOT always be a hit no matter what and a natural 1 should NOT always be a natural miss regardless. 
Lossing the extra "to hit" roll doesn't bother me at all. 

Also, I am intruigued but Land Outcast's post:



> Oh, as simple as you can think it is: picture the classical image of the hero in the middle of the battle, dropping enemies by the dozen.
> 
> Instead of using identical soldiers A and B, I use this:
> HP: A+B
> AC: A+2
> Attack: A+2
> Damage: A+(B's average damage /2)
> 
> A, B, and C:
> HP: A+B+C
> AC: A+4
> Attack: A+4
> Damage: A+(B's average damage /2)+(C's average damage/2) = A+B
> 
> once they lose their total hp (given I use them at higher levels, usually it results to be in one round) the squad dies. Maybe in big numbers it results incoherent, but I never use them in numbers greater than 5




I like where this is going. Maybe statting out a "squad" of common minions like goblins, skeletons, zombies, etc. might save some time.


----------



## greywulf

WSmith said:
			
		

> BTW, I also like CHA, so blahhh!




Lol! Opinion duely noted.

Oddly enough, Microlite20 didn't have multiple attacks. People complained, so it got added in. Same for Rogue's Sneak attack. Go figure. 

As it stands, I like multiple attacks as it increases the dynamic pace of combats, but whether they get used is (as with all things) entirely up to you.

I dig Darrell's damage-cascade idea, and the mob-rule rules too. They're going to both get plonked into the Macropedia at some point, for sure.


----------



## jezter6

greywulf said:
			
		

> EDIT: Jezter, if it makes you feel better to call it BAB, that's fine by me. But it's not  M20 works with totals only, not "parts of the total given a special name so we can hang more rules off it" as it is with D&D.



Call it CAB (Class Attack Bonus) or LAB (Level Attack Bonus), either way, the NET gain is +1/level which is comparable to a d20 fighter class.

If, in d20, all classes got +1/level, then I imagine that all monster challenges would be much MUCH different. But, because you're giving it to everyone for free, they are hitting much more often than a d20 counterpart would have. Also allowing other bonuses to stack in regards to multiple attacks, you're giving people multiple attacks faster, at a better bonus.

Net result: PCs hit more often than they would normally. Doing more damage to creatures than they would normally. Which means an AC 17 isn't quite as good as it used to be. Really, depending on the PC level, it's probably 5-10 WORSE than it should be. Creatures were designed around the thought that not everyone is a melee master and the rogue and cleric are not going to be hitting each and every round.

I also disagree with the HP thing, but you're sold on it, so there's nothing I can do about it. Sure, it's not supposed to be d20, but when you're taking d20 monsters to fight the PCs, you've got to understand that they were designed for a  certain power level, and groups with certain HPs. If the fighter is no longer the tank he once was because he has half the HP he could have had in d20, well then what's the point? An extra +1 every 5 levels? Not enough bonus. Ability to wear heavy armor? Since NPC total attack bonus is much higher than it used to be, it negates the extra +3 AC or so you could get over the expert class.

Maybe I'm the only one that see is, and that's ok. I'll leave you guys be. I'm just going in circles here anyways.


----------



## greywulf

jezter6 said:
			
		

> If, in d20, all classes got +1/level, then I imagine that all monster challenges would be much MUCH different. But, because you're giving it to everyone for free, they are hitting much more often than a d20 counterpart would have. Also allowing other bonuses to stack in regards to multiple attacks, you're giving people multiple attacks faster, at a better bonus.
> 
> ..big snip...




You're half-right. Kinda. In Microlite20 all classes have a higher to-hit bonus (and rate of attacks, probably), than their D&D counterparts. But....and here's the kicker.... NO FEATS! So, there's no Combat Reflexes, no Cleave (though some have House Rule'd it back in, of sorts), so no Power Attack, no Rapid Shot, no Combat Expertise, no Point Blank Shot, no Weapon Focus or any of the other feats which give characters higher to-hit bonus, damage or number of attacks.

Instead, we just give a blanket higher attack. In D&D terms, there's not a lot between one nor the other - and actually playing the game bears this out.


----------



## Larcen

greywulf said:
			
		

> You're half-right. Kinda. In Microlite20 all classes have a higher to-hit bonus (and rate of attacks, probably), than their D&D counterparts. But....and here's the kicker.... NO FEATS! So, there's no Combat Reflexes, no Cleave (though some have House Rule'd it back in, of sorts), so no Power Attack, no Rapid Shot, no Combat Expertise, no Point Blank Shot, no Weapon Focus or any of the other feats which give characters higher to-hit bonus, damage or number of attacks.
> 
> Instead, we just give a blanket higher attack. In D&D terms, there's not a lot between one nor the other - and actually playing the game bears this out.




But then, neither do the monsters have feats...so you can take that back out of your equation again.    

I suppose you can argue that PCs are usually more feat-laden than monsters...


----------



## jezter6

Larcen said:
			
		

> But then, neither do the monsters have feats...so you can take that back out of your equation again.
> 
> I suppose you can argue that PCs are usually more feat-laden than monsters...




Good call Larcen. I imagine though, after hearing greywulf's arguments, that it may not be as bad as I think it is. I will admit not playing this ruleset, just crunching numbers from the math side.

I think if I houserule HPs per class, and maybe re-tweak a few things to give some advantage to the lower HP classes, it might work for me.

Thanks for a different perspective, greywulf. I was not sold there for a while, now I'm still considering it.


----------



## greywulf

jezter6 said:
			
		

> Thanks for a different perspective, greywulf. I was not sold there for a while, now I'm still considering it.




Cool! Welcome to the lightside.


----------



## Phantos

wow.
a newcomer/latecomer here.
I have nothing to add but appreciativeness to what I just read (and the links).
very cool stuff. I look forward to trying this out very soon.
cheers.


----------



## greywulf

Phantos, we appreciate your appreciativeness. Thanks!


----------



## WSmith

I made a small observation. 

In the core rules revised this says:



> Any armor up to armor bonus +3 is light and any armor up to armor bonus +5 is medium. All classes can wield shields, as long as their armor bonus remains within their class limits.




In the equipment list in the PDF, it has chain shirt at +4 under light armor and hide +3 under medium armor. I assume this is no longer correct, and the two should be switched on the equip. list, correct?

This is how this all plays out


Fighter: all armor, no worries.
Mage: no armor, no worries. 
Rogue: can use a light shield if wearing padded or leather armor, or heavy shield with padded armor. Is this the concept that was intended?
Cleric: medium armor allowed. This means that they could no longer use a shield with chainmail or wear armor heavier than chain mail or breast plate at all. Is this also the concept sought? 

To me, it seems simpler to just use the catagory names instead of of the number shuffling, which I understand adds some flexibility. In addition, basing armor allowed on a modifier becomes slightly complex once magic armor, bracers, shields, etc. are thrown in the mix. 

I was thinking of something like:

Fighter: all armor and shields.
Mage: no armor or shields. 
Rogue: light armor and shields*. 
Cleric: medium armor and shields.

_*I am still not covinced the rogue should be able to wield shields, but I know many other would like that._

Also, the cleric is now restricted to medium. In full on d20, they have all armor available. Personally this doesn't bother me one bit, but I was wondering if that was intended.


----------



## Land Outcast

> * Fighter: all armor and shields.
> * Mage: no armor or shields.
> * Rogue: light armor and shields*.
> * Cleric: medium armor and shields.



 I like it, seems simpler (especially from the rogue's point of view)


----------



## kensanata

In my own campaign with Japanese armor, I kept wondering how much armor was "light" armor, which is why I found the +3/+5 proposal appealing. Somebody posted it a long time back on this thread, and I thought it was neat: It would work no matter where your armor came from. But then again, nobody wears shields in my setting, and they don't have magic armor, yet.

Perhaps the following would work better?

"Any armor up to a non-magical armor bonus +3 is light and any armor up to a non-magical armor bonus +5 is medium. All classes can wield shields."


----------



## greywulf

Thinking about it some more, simpler might just be simpler.

I vote with what WSmith said, though I'm uncertain about using Shields. They just seem so...unRoguelike.


----------



## Zoatebix

Something to hide behind is un-rogue-like?


----------



## greywulf

Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Something to hide behind is un-rogue-like?




Lol! Good point. I thought that's what Fighters were for


----------



## kensanata

greywulf said:
			
		

> Thinking about it some more, simpler might just be simpler.




Depends what that means...  I'll revert the changes I made at the time. 



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> I vote with what WSmith said, though I'm uncertain about using Shields. They just seem so...unRoguelike.




Certainly the D&D manual says that rogues are not proficient with shields...


----------



## greywulf

kensanata said:
			
		

> Depends what that means...  I'll revert the changes I made at the time.
> 
> Certainly the D&D manual says that rogues are not proficient with shields...




Thanks, K'. I've not had time to hit Big Shiny lately (new campaign started last night in Ptolus, giving me much to think about) so that's going to be my Sunday Afternoon project, methinks.

I'll fit your changes back into the text.


----------



## Sabathius42

First I would like to say that I haven't read this whole thread, so if I repeat something talked to death forgive me.

I started up a new campaign this week and we decided to give the Microlite system a run for its money.  Here are my observations of the evening.

1. The cost to cast spell in HP was severely limiting the Wizard and Cleric at 1st level.  The wizard could only cast MM twice and was tapped out and forced to throw food platters.  This seems like a little too little spellpower.  I put in a stopgap fix of letting the wizard use MIND instead of STR for hitpoints and letting the cleric choose his stat of HP giving.

2. Over 1/2 of the on-the-fly combinations of skill/stat to cover a situation seemed to come up physical/dex.  Not a gripe, just an observation.

3. The monster write-up download page was pretty handy, however it needs a bit more info included to be REALLY handy.  I suggest a Traveller style line with the 3 stats and 4 skills listed thusly  S/D/M/S/K/C  (example for a beefy monster 7/1/-1:8/3/3/3)

4. I subbed in making opposed PHY: DEX rolls when avoiding AoO situations.  It worked well.

5. We used minis, but not a grid.  When someone was close to melee but not in melee I let them make a DC10 PHY: DEX roll to "charge".  It didn't make sense they couldn't step up AND attack when they were only 5 feet away from the action.

6. With as much trimmed fat as there is, I cannot believe that the kooky twin-weapon-fighting still made it in.  I instead use the following rule.
Off Hand: Having a weapon in your off hand give you +2 on attacks.

More observations next week, they are off to save the princess!

DS


----------



## 3d6

> The cost to cast spell in HP was severely limiting the Wizard and Cleric at 1st level.  The wizard could only cast MM twice and was tapped out and forced to throw food platters.



A 1st-level wizard in D&D with Intelligence 16 can cast two 1st-level spells, and a 1st-level cleric with Wisdom 16 can cast three.


----------



## Sabathius42

3d6 said:
			
		

> A 1st level wizard in D&D with Intelligence 16 can cast two 1st-level spells, and a 1st level cleric with Wisdom 16 can cast three.




They can also cast 3 0-level spells, for a total of 9 and 12 HP worth of spells respectively.  In addition they are not dead when they get tapped out.

DS


----------



## kensanata

Interesting observations!  Thanks for sharing.



			
				Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> The cost to cast spell in HP was severely limiting the Wizard and Cleric at 1st level.




I think the reason I'm not running into this is that the one mage with STR 5 is using a free-form magic system and rarely casts spell in the first place. Another important consideration is that your favorite spell costs 1hp less. So if your Mage's favorite 1st-level spell is MM, then that will only cost 2hp instead of 3. And better yet, your favorite 0-level spell will cost nothing at all!

Assuming a weak mage: STR 5 + 1d6 (2) = 7hp. That means he can cast MM three times a day, unlimited favorite 0-level spells, and still have 1hp left to run.  Compare this with a D&D mage who has 4hp and can cast exactly 3 0-level spells and a single 1st-level spell, probably adding another bonus 1st-level spell due to high INT.

I think the M20 mage should not look too shabby. Can you provide some more information?



			
				Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> Over 1/2 of the on-the-fly combinations of skill/stat to cover a situation seemed to come up physical/dex.  Not a gripe, just an observation.




This must be your game style.  When I posted my observations, I noted that nearly all my skill checks were Subterfuge+DEX and Subterfuge+MIND for Hide, Spot, Listen, Disarm and the like. Somebody else posted that most of their checks involved social interactions. That convinced me.



			
				Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> We used minis, but not a grid.  When someone was close to melee but not in melee I let them make a DC10 PHY: DEX roll to "charge".  It didn't make sense they couldn't step up AND attack when they were only 5 feet away from the action.




We use little wooden tokens on the table, just to know who is hitting whom. I usually just rule that moving from one end of the battle to the other takes a round, all other movement from foe to foe comes for free.



			
				Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> With as much trimmed fat as there is, I cannot believe that the kooky twin-weapon-fighting still made it in.  I instead use the following rule. Off Hand: Having a weapon in your off hand give you +2 on attacks.




Interesting alternative. Nobody in my group is using two weapons, so I can't say anything about it.


----------



## 3d6

Orisons and cantrips are pretty worthless, though. Microlite20 characters also have the advantage of having full access to their entire spell list with spontaneous casting. Also, it says that magi can cast "any arcane spell" and clerics  "any divine spell"; thus, magi can use _cure light wounds_ and _hideous laughter_ at 1st level, among other things, and clerics have all domain spells, ranger spells, and paladin spells.

I do think the casting system breaks down quite a bit at higher levels, however, due to the much-lower-than-D&D hit points.

In the game I'm running, spells generate "fatigue points" (similar to non-lethal damage, except only healed by 8 hours of rest) equal to twice the spells level, minus 1. If your fatigue points exceed your maximum (not current) hit points, you fall unconscious for 8 hours (after which point all your fatigue points have been removed). So far, the mage and cleric characters have not seemed overpowered compared to the fighter and rogue characters. (Actually, the fighter seems to be the strongest class at low levels.)


----------



## Sabathius42

kensanata said:
			
		

> Assuming a weak mage: STR 5 + 1d6 (2) = 7hp.




Am I reading something wrong?  Shouldn't a 1st level character with STR 5 have 1d6-2 HP?  I gave out max at 1st level so this would be 4.

About making a 0 level spell "favored" and getting it free:  Hadn't thought of that angle, could definately be useful.

About 0 level spells being useless:  No way! A mage-handed tureen of hot soup was a critical blow in the combat I was running.

About free moves in combat: We stuck close to the "one thing a round, move or shoot" rule.

About access to EVERY spell:  That would definately change perception of power level.  We were only using the downloadable short list of spells, not the PHB.  If I do switch to the PHB I would still stick to the stock wizard/cleric lists.

DS


----------



## WSmith

I too only use the spell lists from the M20 pocketbooks. Makes life much simplier. 

BTW, my TWF rule I used for a while is this: 

One attck roll, two damage rolls, one for each weapon. The higher of the two weapons is the one that strikes true and inflicts damage. A tie means both strike. 

This goes along with my beilef in the abstract combat reasoning. One attack roll consists of many strikes, thrusts, feints, parries, etc.


----------



## WSmith

Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> Am I reading something wrong?  Shouldn't a 1st level character with STR 5 have 1d6-2 HP?  I gave out max at 1st level so this would be 4.




It is the actual ability score number, not the modifer. The above PC should have 1d6 + 5 HP.


----------



## Larcen

Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> 6. With as much trimmed fat as there is, I cannot believe that the kooky twin-weapon-fighting still made it in.  I instead use the following rule.
> Off Hand: Having a weapon in your off hand give you +2 on attacks.
> DS




Since I am trying to get away from multiple attacks as much as possible, this is rather interesting.  But which of the two weapons rolls for damage if you score a hit?



			
				kensanata said:
			
		

> And better yet, your favorite 0-level spell will cost nothing at all!




The rules say that your signature spell has to be 1st level and up.  So no freebies it seems. 



			
				kensanata said:
			
		

> I usually just rule that moving from one end of the battle to the other takes a round, all other movement from foe to foe comes for free.




Say, this is rather cool and elegant.  It solves a long standing problem I have had with D&D style combat.  All the combatants always seem to be rooted to the spot once the have closed.  No one ever wants to move in combat for fear of giving up a precious attack or provoking a AoO.  Sure the free 5' step was meant to prevent that, but I always wonder how to capture true cinematic combat like in the movies where the combatants use the entire room/area/arena they are in to maneuver.  

With this simple method you came up its like the entire room is now "free" to use.  Go ahead and jump on a table, as long as its close, its free! (Well, movement-wise)  Go ahead step in to help a friend, its free! Go ahead and back up closer to the exit while still fending off the guards, it's free!  Go ahead, you little kobold you, run under the table, its free!  (That one was for Greywulf.)   

I think if both sides can do it, it should still be balanced.  Of course the DM might still rule a common sense AoO here and there (like running clear past an otherwise unengaged enemy) but they should be rare to keep the opponents and the fun moving along.   Works even better for miniatureless combat I bet.  I like it.  

What do other people think?  Is it possible to have cool cinametic combat where you throw away movement rates and distances, for the most part, and just concentrate on where people want to be and the actual attacks only?  Or does it create some weird unbalancing situations?


----------



## kensanata

*Thoughts on Combat*



			
				Larcen said:
			
		

> The rules say that your signature spell has to be 1st level and up.  So no freebies it seems.




Argh! I introduced this by accident while rewriting the rules. CoreRulesRevised says "Spellcasters can pick a ‘signature’ spell on every Spell Level. These spells are easier to cast due to familiarity, costing 1 less HP to use." CoreRules says: "Select one ‘signature’ spell per spell level from 1st upward that they prefer to use over any other. These spells are easier to cast due to familiarity, costing 1 less HP to use." I'll fix this. 



			
				Larcen said:
			
		

> Say, this is rather cool and elegant.  It solves a long standing problem I have had with D&D style combat.  All the combatants always seem to be rooted to the spot once the have closed.




The two areas that remain contentious: Flanking/sneak attacks and retreat/fleeing.

As for flanking, I just rule that if they join a melee where all enemies are already busy, they're automatically flanking, ie. numerical superiority = sneak attacks possible if Sub+DEX of the thief > Sub+MIND of the enemy (and I ignore flanking for M20). I think I might have to fix this, however. I'm thinking of getting rid of that extra skill check, ruling that a thief adds his Sub to damage rolls whenever they hit and their party has numerical superiority.

I use the wooden counters to determine local numerical superiority: If there are many enemies, I'll break them up into several groups. Example: The evil Izanami worshiping priest is protected by his two acolytes (three) and managed to read a scroll of Summon Monster V calling forth a bearded devil. This devil appears in the back of the party, so that the party has to split up. If at least one other party member helps the thief attack the bearded devil, this will grant them numerical superiority in this particular melee and the thief will be able to add his Sub to damage rolls. (As I said, I'm planning to no longer require successful sneak skill rolls for this.)

Regarding withdrawing, retreating, and fleeing: In this campaign all enemies have been human until now, so I'll basically start by saying that enemies are backing away slowly, offering to surrender as they continue to fight. I then start moving the wooden counters away from melee, and players either turn to other foes (usually no extra round required, just attack any nearby foe) or follow the retreating enemies.

If followed, enemies may start their real withdrawal, ie. not attacking and retreating even faster (still no attack of opportunity or attack bonus for the party members). If the party members pursue their foes, we change from combat into a chase and will resolve it after everybody else has finished combat.

What usually happens is that the bosses manage to flee while minions try to surrender as they are moving backwards ("Please, spare us!"). My players will also often bandage fallen foes bringing them back to 1hp (instead of going through the whole healing thing), thus obviating the need for doing non-lethal damage and all that.


----------



## kensanata

*Magic*



			
				Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> In addition they are not dead when they get tapped out.




Hehe. In my game, they just pass out for 8h if lethal damage + magical drain reduces their hitpoints to 0 or less. They only start dying if the lethal damage alone reduces their hitpoints to 0 or less.


----------



## Phantos

greywulf said:
			
		

> Phantos, we appreciate your appreciativeness. Thanks!



heh. thanks. trying out microlite tomorrow night. cheers.


----------



## Ry

Put me into the "no shields for rogues" camp.


----------



## greywulf

kensanata said:
			
		

> I usually just rule that moving from one end of the battle to the other takes a round, all other movement from foe to foe comes for free.




Same here, in essence - elegantly put. Combat is all about moving, jockeying for position, etc; exciting movement is for free, and I toss in the occasional +1 or +2 to hit or damage for great tactics and/or roleplaying. 

We play two-weapon fighting by the Microlite20 rules with individual to-hit rolls for each weapon, and testing the "using to-hit bonus as initiative" works well with this - it means that a twf-wielding dude gets two hits at the same initiative point (a fast double swipe) as opposed to the usual +6/+1 cycle which gives multiple attacks at different points in the round. It's a tactics thing.

I like all these teeny tiny House Rules folks have for M20; it makes the system alive, and people are thinking about how to make the rules work for them. That's great! Tomorrow is Big Shiny day where I'm working on the Macropedia PDF. If anyone has adventures, supplements, etc that they've submitted to http://home.greywulf.net/m20 in an editable format (.rtf, .doc, .odt, whatever), please send 'em to me. It'll make putting your adventures into Big Shiny a whole lot easier! 

Thanks


----------



## Sabathius42

Larcen said:
			
		

> Since I am trying to get away from multiple attacks as much as possible, this is rather interesting.  But which of the two weapons rolls for damage if you score a hit?




Players choice.  I just view the extra weapon as an anti-shield sorta thing.  I ruled it accordingly.

DS


----------



## greywulf

Just a quick heads-up. 

I've added a new entry to the Summary of Lite Systems. Mini20 by Luigi is a great take on the Microlite20 rules with extra races, feats and rules. He's managed to fit the equipment list, spells and monsters into just 24 pages. S'good is you want a heavier system than the Core Rules M20, but don't particularly want to roll your own.


----------



## WSmith

WSmith said:
			
		

> BTW, my TWF rule I used for a while is this:
> 
> One attck roll, two damage rolls, one for each weapon. The higher of the two weapons is the one that strikes true and inflicts damage. A tie means both strike.
> 
> This goes along with my beilef in the abstract combat reasoning. One attack roll consists of many strikes, thrusts, feints, parries, etc.




Not to violate netiquete to quote myself,  but I want to expand on this since I have more time now. 

This was one method I proposed during C&C's development that was voted down. I actually think it fits better into microlite20 as a house rule, (well at least one I am going to use.  ) 

It evolved in many ways. 

First it was one attack roll and two damage rolls, with the higher of the two rolls being the damage inflicted. 

Then it came the -X penalty for TWF, (it went from -2 to -4 to -6 to -2 again.) 

Then, that penalty was offset by the DEX modifier. 

Then, STR to hit was denied. 

Everyone wanted more traditional TWF method so it got deep sixed. I did however, keep this for my own use in D&D as a house rule. 

After some play and some thought, I said to myself, "why bother will all these modifiers and conditions? Just make it simple!" So, it became a single attack roll as normal, a damage roll for each weapon, and the damage inflicted was from the higher number die. But what if the dice tie? Well, if you are lucky enough to have both dice tie, then you have been lucky enough to find a flaw in your foe's defense and bite with both weapons!  THE END. 

BUT WAIT.... what about drawbacks, penalties, shield wielding, crazy swashbucklers, etc.? 

Yeah, what about it. 

The only condition I demand is that at least one of the weapons are small, (my rule was actually a dagger or hand axe, but M20 has a few other options.)  

So why wouldn't everyone want to use TWF like this in M20? 

Well, If you are very strong as a PC,and since you are not using a shield anyway, are you going to want to do the higher of a d6 and d4 damage roll, or are you going to go with a big honking weapon that will give 1d10 or 1d12 + double your STR mod for damage?

Plus in my game, I am still in the "no shields for rogues" camp. So at least this way they have something else they can use in their arsenal.


----------



## WSmith

kensanata said:
			
		

> I'm thinking of getting rid of that extra skill check, ruling that a thief adds his Sub to damage rolls whenever they hit and their party has numerical superiority.




Stop it right there! That is perfect!  



> Regarding withdrawing, retreating, and fleeing: In this campaign all enemies have been human until now, so I'll basically start by saying that enemies are backing away slowly, offering to surrender as they continue to fight. I then start moving the wooden counters away from melee, and players either turn to other foes (usually no extra round required, just attack any nearby foe) or follow the retreating enemies.
> 
> If followed, enemies may start their real withdrawal, ie. not attacking and retreating even faster (still no attack of opportunity or attack bonus for the party members). If the party members pursue their foes, we change from combat into a chase and will resolve it after everybody else has finished combat.




Excellent! Excellent! Excellent! That is perfect. The only time I would bother with movement rates is when the chase has begun. 

I am so in favor of movement being abstract and simplified. I hate:

"I won initiative, now I move across the room and attack the goblin." (This movement happens as the goblin just remains idle and lifeless in the spot where it stands and waits for the oncoming adventurer to come to slaughter him in his place!) 

At best, the two combatants should meet somewhere in the middle of the room or battlefield if they wish to engage. If the goblin tries to evade the engagement, then I would have the adventurer roll a DEX + Phys vs a plausible DC to see if our hero has reached the goblin before the beastie tries to run under the table for cover, or flee out the door, or duck behind a jade statue, etc. (NOTE: this is pretty much the kind of thing that Tunnnels & Trolls has taught me! Do not be afraid to use rolls in place of rules. Instead of a whole bunch of rules and conditions for AoO-like strikes, just make a roll, in M20 DEX + Phys maybe, to see if you hit the fleeing bad guy before he gets away.)

That is also very microlite-ish.


----------



## kensanata

*Pdf*



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> Just a quick heads-up.




I need a PDF of the core rules in English, and I decided I wanted to use the revised rules. Anybody who doesn't want to wait for "Big Shiny" and never bothered to convert the wiki page, here's something for you.


----------



## WSmith

Good job, kensanata. 

Are the M20 rules in either doc or rtf format anywhere? I don't remember seeing them.

EDIT: Nevemind. I found it.


----------



## Larcen

Ideas for TWF and roguish shields seems to be two of the points of thought right now, so I will throw in my 2 cents...

Looking in the great Wikipedia for "Main Gauche" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_gauche) , we find:

"In sword fighting, the main-gauche is a dagger used in the off-hand, mainly to assist in parrying incoming thrusts, while the dominant hand wields a rapier or similar longer weapon intended for one-handed use. It may also be used for attack if an opportunity arises."

I say this sort of thinking can apply to most any secondary weapon, not just the main gauche, so how about if the secondary weapon _is_ the rogue's "shield"?  

*Whenever someone uses a secondary weapon, they get no extra attacks, but instead add a +1 to their AC against any melee attack.* 

This would appy to everyone not just rogues.  The +1 represents not just your parrying ability, but also the opponent's hesitancy and caution to perform an attack or rush knowing that you have a backup weapon in hand.

I would refrain from changing the set AC bonus to something DEX related, with the thought that fast hands can parry easier.  DEX is already adding to AC and we dont want the bonus to get too big.

Optional:  In order to make use of the other good point Wikipedia made, "It may also be used for attack if an opportunity arises", here is another advantage we can add to TWF...

*If you are using two weapons and you roll a natural 20, your secondary weapon rolls damage too.* 

There you go.  No extra attacks.  No bonuses to hit.  But still great cause it adds to AC and might provide extra damage from time to time.  

Since this is a rules-lite game, and I hate to keep track of conditional bonuses (especially _small_ conditional bonuses),  the only thing I might change is to make the +1 to AC a global bonus, not just a melee bonus.  It's heroic fantasy so swatting an arrow from the air with a dagger is not beyond reason.  Heck, Aragorn did it in Fellowship...


----------



## Cymew

Two weapons add one to AC: good idea!
A natural 20 gives another dmg roll when using two weapons:  good idea! 

Me like.

About spell lists, I'm compiling a list of spells from Basic D&D to use with M20. That is, spellcasters have access to that list and not everything in the SRD. Anyone who can make a pocketmod out of it, for me?


----------



## greywulf

Lots of good stuff, and me too busy to reply! Meh!

Ok, I'm here now, so............

Kensanata, thanks for the Core Rules Revised .pdf. Good work  I'm still ploughing on with Big Shiny, should have something to post by the weekend. I hope. Slow going. It'll be worth it though. No, really.

TWF adds +1 to AC. I like. I'd suggest that the second weapon doesn't get an additional attack if it's being used for defence, though it can be switched from round-to-round. At low levels, that would mean defence usually is the better option, but at higher ones that extra attack might be worth sacrificing a point of AC. Tactics. Tactics are good.

Again, I'd say only for Fighters and Rogues, and only with light weapons.



			
				kensanata said:
			
		

> I'm thinking of getting rid of that extra skill check, ruling that a thief adds his Sub to damage rolls whenever they hit and their party has numerical superiority.




Hmmmm. Not sure. My players like to roll, and a lone Rogue can do a lot of damage from the shadows even when outnumbered. I'd say this is more of a case-by-case thing. There have been times when I've not bothered asking the Rogue to make a skill roll because it's clear the poor victim doesn't know he's there. 

For example:

- Rogue _spider climbed_ on the ceiling above, with a crossbow. My player's favourite tactic 
- Guard is being distracted by the Fighter, who's arguinig with him. Rogue in the shadows some way off. With a crossbow. Again.
- Rogue is disguised as a prostitute, Guard is stoopid. Rogue has punch dagger behind oriental fan. Nasty.

I could have asked the player to roll with a hefty bonus, but it's a lot easier and more rewarding to the player it say the stunt has succeeded. It's more cinematic and player-centric that way. Always good things in a game. Good roleplaying + tactics = reward in my game.

A few more things (heck, I'm still here, but should be coding. Ah well).............

- When Big Shiny the Macropedia is done, I'm going to stick it on lulu.com as a print on demand publication. So if you want your own printed, bound copy of Microlite20 all the House Rules, adventures, campaign settings and more, it'll be there! If you've contributed stuff, your name will be in print! Cool eh?
- I'm going to trawl through this thread and add the best of the House Rules to the Macropedia site and Big Shiny itself. That's going to take a while, so any volutneer assistance would be gratefully received!
- I'm also going to grab a copy of this thread and post it someplace just in case a Great Server Crash at ENWorld takes down all your valuable input. That'll never do
- I need more Critters! Please run the Monster Generator, make up descriptions and append them to that page. Thanks!

Phew. I'm done.


----------



## kensanata

greywulf said:
			
		

> TWF adds +1 to AC. I like.




I'm just wondering: Why would anybody be using a shield instead? On the other hand, the Kitsunemori Campaign Setting I'm using has one particular weapon, the Tessen (a war-fan), that can be used as a shield, ie. it grants AC +1. I must confess that I thought it only granted this bonus if you did not attack in the same round. I'm not sure what to think of it all.



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> My players like to roll, and a lone Rogue can do a lot of damage from the shadows even when outnumbered. I'd say this is more of a case-by-case thing.




You provided some excellent examples for non-melee situations. In these situations, I would rule just like you did. How do you handle it in combat, however? D&D 3.5 says you get the sneak attack whenever you're flanking your enemy. No extra rolls required, right? My players just felt it was so unfair to do a sub+DEX vs sub+DEX check to "sneak", succeed, and then roll again for an attack, and miss...



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> I'm going to trawl through this thread and add the best of the House Rules to the Macropedia site and Big Shiny itself. That's going to take a while, so any volutneer assistance would be gratefully received!




I think you won't find too many ideas that are not already on the wiki. I've added all the ones I liked.  And a lot of them have been added by their respective authors. Unless you wanted to add all the Rank20 and Ultramicrolight20 stuff as well...



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> I'm also going to grab a copy of this thread and post it someplace just in case a Great Server Crash at ENWorld takes down all your valuable input. That'll never do.




I occasionally save a plain-text copy of the thread as well. Perhaps we should add bbcode to Oddmuse so that we can just copy the plaintext file on the wiki... 



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> I need more Critters!




How weird. I find this totally not interesting, but I'm sure I could just rattle down 20 critters in 20 minutes without using a generator. See next post...


----------



## greywulf

kensanata said:
			
		

> I'm just wondering: Why would anybody be using a shield instead?




1) Because you can only use two light weapons (or a rapier + light). If you want to use a medium weapon like a longsword, use a shield
2) You're a cleric so can't twf.



			
				kensanata said:
			
		

> I would rule just like you did. How do you handle it in combat, however? D&D 3.5 says you get the sneak attack whenever you're flanking your enemy. No extra rolls required, right? My players just felt it was so unfair to do a sub+DEX vs sub+DEX check to "sneak", succeed, and then roll again for an attack, and miss...




I say "that's a cool plan, you get Sub damage on your next hit automatically". If they miss, there's a (slim) chance that the victim didn't notice the attack, so roll Sub+DEX again next round (with a -2 penalty) and try again. Maybe. Depends on the situation and how nice I'm feeling.

Re: the other House Rules. I'm sure there's some things we've missed however, expecially about initiative and two-weapon fighting. I'll go on a threadhunt.



			
				kensanata said:
			
		

> II occasionally save a plain-text copy of the thread as well. Perhaps we should add bbcode to Oddmuse so that we can just copy the plaintext file on the wiki...




Make it so, Number One! a bbcode module for oddmuse would be kind funky, y'know.




			
				kensanata said:
			
		

> How weird. I find this totally not interesting, but I'm sure I could just rattle down 20 critters in 20 minutes without using a generator. See next post...




I look forward to it  I've a strange fondness for wierd monsters. I think it goes back to my early D&D roots with all the kooky critters from early Dragon magazines, Wihte Dwarf, the Creature Catalogue, etc. Here's a list of classic OD&D monsters  from official products. A lot of those names will be unfamiliar to newer d20 gamers, I'll bet  Thankfully a lot have been converted over the years.

I also remember a blue landscape format book I have which contained a shedload of monsters I used to throw at my players, including the wonderful Land Shark I used to great effect as mounts for hobgoblin raiders. Can't for the life of me remember the title of the book though.


----------



## kensanata

*Critters*

*Frozen*

Rabid Ice Bear: 3d8+6 (19hp), AC 11, claws +5 (2d4+4). Once it hits, apply 2d4+4 crushing damage automatically. Blot-shot eyes, and tons of saliva. Something's wrong with this bear! Anybody bitten by the bear save phys+STR vs. DC15 after combat or suffer STR-1, MIND-1. Next morning, save phys+STR vs. DC15 again if you failed after combat. If you fail again, suffer STR+2, DEX-1, MIND-3, and blood-shot eyes. Heal as normal ability damage.

Storm Yeti: 5d8+10 (33hp), AC 13, slam +8 (1d6+3). A huge hulking shadow moving in the shadows amidst the raging blizzard. Will you venture forth and investigate? Meet the angry Yeti who resents trespassers. Sub 8 during a snow storm for a surprise slam!

Ice Wolf: 1d8+2 (7hp), AC 12, bite +2 (1d4+1). Ice wolves usually hunt in packs of 15 or more wolves, staying out of range, picking on any stragglers, preventing any decent rest (no healing or recovery from magic drain when surrounded by wolves out on the ice), attacking when the party is weak, such as after a fight with an angry bear.

Frozen Shaman: Undead, 3d8 (13hp), damage resistance: 5/slashing, AC 15, slam +3 (1d4), magic missile every odd round (1d6+3). Evil shamans are often left behind by the wandering tribes to die in the ice. Some of them cling to their life beyond all reason, however, and thus their dessicated corpses walk the frozen wasteland in the search of warmth & food. It will try to sneak into a camp, release pack animals, and steal as many provisions as possible. Frozen shamans will only fight to save their lives. They're more interested in the food.

Greater Ruaarz: 9d8+18 (58hp), damage resistance: 5/fire, AC 17, bite +11 (2d6+4), cold breadth every odd round (2d6+2). These giant ice snakes can travel hidden below the snow or below the ice (Sub 12) to approach their prey. They'll raise their ugly head up to twice the height of a man to release a minor ice storm from their bellies, and then swoop down to kill the most foolish of their enemies who dared approach them. Once it has killed its first enemy, it will drag him down below the ice or snow and start to retreat. If left alone, the one victim will satiate it for many weeks to come.

*Temperate Forest*

Stick Man: 2d8 (9hp), damage resistance: 5/fire, axe, AC 16, slam +2 (1d6+4). These animated stick men look frail and thin, but they are fast, hard as iron wood, and animated by a furious spirit bent on kicking out the intruders. Usually you'll find 6-12 of them defending a particular area. They won't pursue retreating foes unless set on fire using oil or magic, in which case they will die in two rounds anyway.

Oak Golem: 7d8+14 (46hp), damage resistance: 5/fire, axe, AC 17, slam +11 (1d10+8). A gnarled old tree sitting atop some boulders suddenly turns to life. Wood and stone start shifting and form into a very broad roughly humanoid with fists the size of an whole halfling. These golems will not start a fight on their own as they're usually fast asleep unless set ablaze or wakened by other wooden creatures such as stick men. Setting them afire using oil or magic will destroy them in four rounds. In those final rounds, they can tear boulders from their dying bodies and hurl them (3d6+3).

Fox Spirit: 2d8 (9hp), AC 15, composite short-bow & arrows +5 (1d6), short sword +2 (1d6). The fox spirits usually travel in hunting bands of 12-20 at night and are used as scouts by other forest spirits.

Beech Child: 1d8 (5hp), damage resistance: 5/fire, axe, AC 10, slam +1 (1). As you approach the tree overgrown with moss, you recognize the shape of a naked child leaning against the tree. It's skin is brown and green, as if overgrown with moss itself, and it's eyes have that magenta stare. In fact, the stare will daze all that look at it (save com+MIND vs 15 or be dazed for 1d4 rounds), and the child's touch will slow any that are hit (save phys+MIND vs 20 or be slowed for 1d4+3 rounds). These children of the woods are usually seen on their own, with 4-12 fox spirits hiding in waiting to shoot down anybody who trespasses.

Wicker King: 10d8 (45hp), damage resistance: 5/fire, axe, AC 15, greatsword +14/+9/+4 (1d10+8). Usually found governing an enchanted forest from the darkest grove, the horned wicker king will only join battle after having summoned all his allies. A typical wicker king will have two or three oak golems and up to fifty stick men to fight for him.

__________
Argh, writing it down is more work than I expected!


----------



## greywulf

Excellent stuff! Snarfed and added to http://wiki.greywulf.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/Macropedia/Critters.

Thanks, Kensanata


----------



## kensanata

Tonight I created a character for my girlfriend. It seems like we're going to try a little one-on-one gaming. I don't think I would have gone through with it using the D&D 3.5 rules. M20 was just right.


----------



## Pilsnerquest

> Tonight I created a character for my girlfriend. It seems like we're going to try a little one-on-one gaming. I don't think I would have gone through with it using the D&D 3.5 rules. M20 was just right.




Hah! I don't blame you, sometimes I don't even go through with it for myself. 

Lately for 3.5 it's been "fighter", "toughness" for all feats, low enough INT so there's no skill computing, armor/shield/weapon, "Bam!", done.


Pilsnerquest


----------



## Cymew

So, was there anyone out there with a Microsoft OS that can help me run that Pocketmod thingie on the B/X spells?

Can't someone do a version for a proper OS?


----------



## kensanata

On my blog I posted some code to do it using the PS Util package. If you have a proper OS, installing it should be no problem at all.


----------



## Cymew

Me happy! Now, if we could just have it done in elisp as well... 

Thanks! I'm going to try that out at once.


----------



## Cymew

Some stuff looked a bit odd, like there was no lines deliminating tha pages on the right hand side. On the other hand it was just a costmetic oddity. The great news is that the spells from Basic, Expert and Companion rules fit on just a few of the 8 pages. I need to fill it up with some more...

Great tool! Thanks again! pstops is "da thing"!


----------



## Cymew

I thought I'd better add an on-topic reply as well.

I've noticed we have four skills, four stats (well, many of us anyway) and four classes.

Now, we also have four "special abilities", one for each class. Or do we?

Fighters can add to damage and to-hit, more every 5th level
Thieves can sneak attack
Clerics can turn undead

MU can cast spells. But wait! Clerics can cast spells too, and turn undead as well...

Is it just my need for symmetry haunting me, or is there any ability from classic D&D that's missing from the Magic-User?


----------



## greywulf

Symmetry bad! Don't get hooked up on the whole 4, 4, 4 thing. Please!

Thanx 

My Microlite20-time is sliding away this week as real-world deadlines whistle by. More from me at the weekend; meanwhile, keep chatting among yourselves!


----------



## Cymew

I'll go and flog my sense of symmetry a bit then. 

Seriously, I wasn't sure there was a point in pushing the "four" thing too far. I'll gladly drop it.


----------



## kensanata

Cymew said:
			
		

> I'll go and flog my sense of symmetry a bit then.




I knew it! We should add either a new class, just to break symmetry some more. I vote for Ranger with no skill bonus but an animal companion instead. Or a new race. I vote for Orcs with STR+3, MIND-1. But not both, haha!


----------



## greywulf

Maybe we should have three stats, classes and skills:

- STR, DEX, MIND
- Phys, Sub, Comm
- Fighter, Rogue, Spellcaster

3,3,3. Half the number of the beast 

I suspect it would also have three players too..........


----------



## kensanata

greywulf said:
			
		

> - STR, DEX, MIND
> - Phys, Sub, Comm
> - Fighter, Rogue, Spellcaster




I like it! Who needs to differentiate between clerics and wizards and all the rest? It's all magic to me...


----------



## kensanata

Cymew said:
			
		

> Now, if we could just have it done in elisp as well...




I'm sure there's a way to do it using Emacs... Maybe we should contact the author of the ps-print package.


----------



## Ry

kensanata said:
			
		

> I like it! Who needs to differentiate between clerics and wizards and all the rest? It's all magic to me...




I so dig it.  I'm still calling MIND INT (Intellect) though, and making WIL (Willpower) something EVERYBODY wants.


----------



## Larcen

Cymew said:
			
		

> MU can cast spells. But wait! Clerics can cast spells too, and turn undead as well...
> 
> Is it just my need for symmetry haunting me, or is there any ability from classic D&D that's missing from the Magic-User?




Hey, why should all clerics be able to turn undead?  Surely some of the gods are not into that sort of thing.  I say make Turn Undead a low level divine spell that scales with character level and let the ones who want it take it.  That then eliminates the extra special ability for Clerics.


----------



## derek_cleric

greywulf said:
			
		

> I've put a Summary of Lite Systems up on the Macropedia.




Hey all!

I added Lite20 to the Macropedia summary of lite systems. I've been away for awhile or I would have done it earlier. Hospitals suck!

--Ray.


----------



## greywulf

derek_cleric said:
			
		

> I added Lite20 to the Macropedia summary of lite systems. I've been away for awhile or I would have done it earlier. Hospitals suck!




Hospitals indeed do suck, hope all is better now. At least they're better than the alternative, I guess!

Thanks for the addition, much appreciated. I'm still ploughing through the Big Shiny Macropedia pdf and aim to have a *nearly* finished article by Wednesday or Thursday. Or Friday, maybe. Depends on the rest of my workload, really.

We'll see.


----------



## Pilsnerquest

Greywulf, has this thread ever caused you to think about geting a bunch of people together and mashing out a set of not necsserily D20 compliant rules?


Pilsnerquest


----------



## kensanata

*Slave Riders of Rockwall*

When I ran Slave Riders of Rockwall by Bert the Ogre at a Con, there were about 20 adventurers present in the hall where the baron announced the prize, and the baron’s hunter offered a little map showing the are north of the Rinau river with of the four farms and two lodges burnt. While travelling, getting lost, fighting woodland creatures, and trying to storm the castle, the other adventurers offered a convenient means of getting help & healing.

My three level 1 players (two fighters and a mage) finally found the help of another party of four including a cleric, but even with their help, fighting stick-men in the forest, dire rats, and small monstrous spiders proved to be too much. When the goblins finally fought back, throwing javelins from the walls and with a sortie on wolf-back, the party managed to shoot down a wolf rider, fight back the others, bandage the fallen goblin, and retreat back into the forest. When threatened, the goblin mentioned the drow hiding beneath the castle, and access to a large city underground.

At this point, my party had been hit too hard, and felt their doom approaching in large strides. They returned to the baron, told him what they knew, handed over the goblin, got a reward of 50gp for their pains, and gave up.

I think the straw that broke their back was the goblin cook evading all attacks and striking them with his pan while calling for help…


----------



## greywulf

Pilsnerquest said:
			
		

> Greywulf, has this thread ever caused you to think about geting a bunch of people together and mashing out a set of not necsserily D20 compliant rules?




Yep. I'd be tempted to throw d20 compliance completely out of the window if it weren't for all those lovely resources we have at hand. 

D&D is the Microsoft Windows of the role-playing world (though the OGL does give it a healthy does of Linuxness too). It's good enough to use, easy to skirt around the broken bits, generates a lot of net traffic because parts of it are badly written and hard to understand but it's _everywhere_.

Enough of the rpg = operating systems for one day 

I'd use d6s, no character classes, stats tied to variable skills (like Microlite20), action points and some kind of schtick bonus system. Here's an example Microlite-ish character sheet:



> Derek the Cleric
> 
> STR 3
> DEX 2
> MIND 2
> CHA 3
> 
> Sub 1
> Phys 3
> Know 2
> Comm 3
> 
> Action points: 4
> Schtick: extra d6 against Undead
> Schtick: extra d6 if his religion is taunted
> Schtick: deduct d6 against fey. They scare him




Add the stat and skill together. That's how many d6's to roll. Use an action point to get another. If any of your Schticks come into play, add (or deduct) those too. Roll a load of dice against a DC, measure success (damage, etc) by how much you exceed by.

Simple, fast, and lots and lots of dice 

Not that I've thought of this much...........


----------



## greywulf

Microlite20 at a Con!!! Excellent!!!

Kensanata, how was it received? Thoughts? Opinions?

You got me drooling now, I want to know everything...........


----------



## kensanata

greywulf said:
			
		

> Microlite20 at a Con [...] how was it received?




Some people wanted Das Schwarze Auge (the D&D of the German speaking world) and gave it a pass. Other's liked the idea of a homebrew. One the D&D properties that is part of M20 made little sense to some of the players: Weak mages at low levels. Tied to that, the loosing hit-points for spells was not well received. Even the one player who knew D&D in and out felt somehow constrained by it, always wondering whether spending those hit-points was actually worth it. This same player also wondered about warriors and claimed that magic users wearing armor and fighting would be much better off. (But he played a fighter anyway.) I remained unconvinced and continue to believe that the system works well. 

The simple character creation was well received. Combat and skill checks were well received.

We had no fighter with multiple attacks or STR ≥ 17 with a two-handed weapon, so there was no discussion of lower-level fighters being overpowered.

As a DM, I think the party was too weak without any healing powers, and fighting against rats (even dire rats) and having to retreat was frustrating for players. Similarly, the party losts its bearing in the alluvial forest and I wanted to take the opportunity to have them meet stick men, angry stone-throwing trees and finally the wicker king. If played well, I thought those woodland creatures might make good allies against the goblins. But the players did not want to move to the west when the stick men tried to prevent them from moving north towards the heart of the forest. Instead, they pulled out torches and fought them with fire. Even when they later found the friendly party of four to help them out, they didn't think of finding more friends, and were thus unable to make significant progress. Unfortunately, the low-key end of the game was entirely my fault and had nothing to do with the rules used.


----------



## greywulf

Great feedback, thanks. That's exactly what I was looking for.

A lack of healing would be a big problem, I agree. If the players take that route, I toss a couple of healing potions into their pack. Nothing makes them wish they had a Cleric quicker than a dwindling supply of potions 

I've found players in Conventions are strange beasts. Everything, but everything, it a legitimate target. Forget about allegiances, friendships or even kinship. If it's got no legs, two legs, four or more, they just want to kill it dead. Cons aren't places for politics. I think you've found that the hard way! I ran a Call of Cthulhu game at a Con once where I uttered the memorable line "My God. You've killed the librarian.........." That was my baptism by fire as to the nature of Convention play. Ouch.

On to the comments............

I'm glad that char gen, skills and combat went well. That's a huge relief! I'd hoped that M20 would work well in a Con, and it's good to see the key elements doing their stuff, especially with a crowd of non-D&D'ers.

Magic was bound to be controversial. People just don't like losing Hit Points. It hurts. That works for my game, but for others, perhaps not so well. Here's an alternate rule to toss into the pan:



> As an alternative to using Hit Points to fuel spells, give Magi and Clerics a Magic Point pool equal to their maximum Hit Point total. Spells are cast using this instead of Hit Points.
> 
> The Magi or Cleric can use their own energy to power the spells; the Spell Cost is double normal and taken from Hit Points. This loss cannot be healed magically and is recovered after 8 hours rest.
> 
> *Example*
> Max is a Magi-1. He has STR 10, 16hp and 16 Magic Points. He casts 5 Magic Missiles for a total of 15 Magic Points. In desperation, he casts another one against the foe; this costs him (3x2) = 6HP. He’s down to 10hp and 1mp. Best of luck, Max.




I've added this to the Macropedia here. 

Regarding the weak mage point; that's intrinsic to D&D itself. Only an alternate magic system (of which we have many now) would solve that bugbear, methinks.

Many thanks, Kensanata!


----------



## jezter6

I think that would just make the mage too powerful in comparison. I hate to go back to the fighter weak argument, but one of the 'balancing' factors about why everyone got the same HP was that magic users had to lose HP to cast. If they lose that option, you have to consider giving the fighter something.


----------



## kensanata

jezter6 said:
			
		

> I think that would just make the mage too powerful in comparison.




I'll have to investigate how DSA balances the two.


----------



## greywulf

jezter6 said:
			
		

> I think that would just make the mage too powerful in comparison. I hate to go back to the fighter weak argument, but one of the 'balancing' factors about why everyone got the same HP was that magic users had to lose HP to cast. If they lose that option, you have to consider giving the fighter something.




That's exactly why I like the system just as it is. But hey, it's an alternative if people think spell-casters are too weak; for Convention play, it would probably work. Toss the Fighter a magic sword to croon over and he'll be happy as well. I find Con games tend to bring out the powergamer in everyone.

I certainly don't want to start an arms-race between the classes, for that way leads to D&D the Dark Side


----------



## Sabathius42

Thought I would add in thoughts/occurences from last weeks game.  When we last saw the PCs they were escorting the evil step-kings 8 year old son Thomas along on a "save the princess" mission.

The players first headed to Duttwuff manor, home of the vampire that led the undead attack on their castle.  They were met at the door by Pierre, the tuxedo wearing mustachioed skeleton butler.  While discussing how they were going to redecorate (they killed Vlad the vampire last week and claimed his house as theirs) the rogue goes upstairs to investigate.  He is met at the bedroom door by Pierre, who won't let him in.  Fight ensues ending with poor Pierre getting an arm chopped off, diving out a window to escape, being knee-dropped from the 2nd story by the not-good fighter, and having his protesting skull crushed into the mud.  Poor Pierre!

Observations: Not a lot of mechanics used here, mostly roleplaying.  Skeletons using tophats as defensive weapons don't last too long.  I have noticed its entirely possible for a 2nd level rogue with good DEX to get two attacks per round with a rapier.  Thats different from regular DnD, not sure how it would work with getting lots more sneak attacks.

After deciding the cleric can burn some HP to hold a seance to speak to the poor departed Pierre (he had the info they were looking for in his brain) the PCs headed off to the castle where the BBEG is holding the princess.  Along the way they have two wilderness encounters.  One was a giant mud-pit blocking the road full of abandoned carts.  Thousands of crows surround the mudpit making the PCs nervous.  The real danger was an otyugh hiding in the mud.  Combat ensued and the otyugh was dispatched.

Observations: Lots of Phy/Dex checks again as the party were leaping around on the half-sunken carts in the mud.  There was mention of "Oh No, not grappling!" when I said the otyugh got ahold of one of the PCs.  I ruled grappling as follows.  "When grappled you can attack your grappler with a -4 or you can attack something else you can reach with a -2.  Any damage done to the grappler (in this case the otyugh tentacle) results in the grappler making a save (PHY/STR) with a DC of damage dealt to maintain the hold."  2nd level characters with diseases are nasty!

Also when stopping to camp at the base of a waterfall and small lake the cleric caught sight of an attractive naked lass across the way.  Upon investigating he found that she lived under the water and was some sort of fey or elemental.  She gave him her family heirloom that "allowed him to breathe" and he visited her underwater house "for the evening".  After that was glossed over, the PC was ready to leave when the lass unleashed her charm, ordering him to stay forever.  The PC barely made it, and was able to escape with his armor in tow.  Last they heard of the situation the lass mentioned something to the effect of "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned!" and promised that her sisters would get revenge.  The party correctly surmised her sisters are of the fire/earth/air persuation.

Observations:  The cleric got lucky with a "will" save since the breathe underwater circlet also had a hidden -4 to all will saves versus the person who gave you this ability.  Once again more roleplaying than mechanics.

Lastly they ended up facing the "troll" guarding the bridge they have to cross above the lava (think Shrek).  We rolled initiative and called it a night.

More next week (unless the snow we are getting now makes us cancel!)
DS


----------



## greywulf

That's a great summary, thanks Sabathius! It's good to see Microlite20 being played fast and loose, just as nature intended. Good work.

Just one comment from me:



> I have noticed its entirely possible for a 2nd level rogue with good DEX to get two attacks per round with a rapier. Thats different from regular DnD, not sure how it would work with getting lots more sneak attacks.




Remember that even with multiple attacks, they only get their Sub added as damage to the first (and only first) attack each round - the extra hits just aren't as accurate as that first, well aimed blow. Or something.

The Rogue in my group has taken to the rapier/dagger combo, getting three attacks a round with Sub on the first strike, following up with the dagger then another rapier lunge. Fast, and deadly. He's going to come up against his equal soon though - and elven duelist who uses a rapier and repeater crossbow (hey, it's still a light weapon!)  

I expect lots of swashbuckling jumping about with the evil elf (name TBA) trying to get some distance for the odd crossbow shot then closing for a little rapier & xbow action. 

If the player wins, he'll /deserve/ that crossbow. Of course, he won't have a lot of ammo left until he gets more made. It is an unusual weapon, after all.

Cinematic. I love it.


----------



## Larcen

greywulf said:
			
		

> Yep. I'd be tempted to throw d20 compliance completely out of the window if it weren't for all those lovely resources we have at hand.
> 
> D&D is the Microsoft Windows of the role-playing world (though the OGL does give it a healthy does of Linuxness too). It's good enough to use, easy to skirt around the broken bits, generates a lot of net traffic because parts of it are badly written and hard to understand but it's _everywhere_.
> 
> Enough of the rpg = operating systems for one day
> 
> I'd use d6s, no character classes, stats tied to variable skills (like Microlite20), action points and some kind of schtick bonus system. Here's an example Microlite-ish character sheet:
> 
> 
> 
> Add the stat and skill together. That's how many d6's to roll. Use an action point to get another. If any of your Schticks come into play, add (or deduct) those too. Roll a load of dice against a DC, measure success (damage, etc) by how much you exceed by.
> 
> Simple, fast, and lots and lots of dice
> 
> Not that I've thought of this much..........




I'm lovin this.  Its got CHA, D6's only, stats=bonuses, actions points, generalized skills, and a simple subskill type system.   

Heck, add in some ideas from the classless M20 system I posted earlier, for better PC customization,  and I'm sold.


----------



## WSmith

Larcen said:
			
		

> I'm lovin this.  Its got CHA, D6's only, stats=bonuses, actions points, generalized skills, and a simple subskill type system.
> 
> Heck, add in some ideas from the classless M20 system I posted earlier, for better PC customization,  and I'm sold.




I think all you would need are some DC numbers. I am not good with dice probability so someone would need to tweek this. Also the descriptive terms are just placeholders and should be changed to names with a little more flavor.  


Easy 15
Moderate 20
Slightly difficult 25
Difficult 30
Very difficult 35
Very hard 40
Legendary 45

So combat could go a few different ways.

1. The two opponents roll the number of dice equal to their STR + Phys. The higher of the two rolls wins and inflcits one wound, (wounds, damage and armor would be the same as ultra-m20.)

2. Monster have a defense target number. The attacker must roll the number of dice of STR+Phys and score equal to or greater than that number to inflict a wound.

3. Ranged attacks would be a DEX + Phys roll to hit, (but damage?)

4. Spells: I dunno.


----------



## WSmith

You could also come up with a list of traits, or schtick if you prefer, that can either by chosen or rolled at character creation. This list could be as large or as small as desired. 

*Sample Traits (+/-d6)*
Archer: +1 with bows
Acrobat: +1 when tumbling
Axemaster: +1 with axes
Earth Mage: can cast 1d6 Earth-type spells
Fire Mage: can cast 1d6 Fire-type spells
Minersight: can see 60' in total darkness
Obnoxious: -1 to CHA + Comm tests.
Owlsight: can see at night
Poor Heath: -1 to wound-death rolls
Slow: -1 to speed-type tests
Sneaky: +1 to stealth-type tests. 
Swift: +1 to speed-type tests
Swordsman: +1 with swords
Weakling: -1 to all STR + Phys tests.


----------



## greywulf

I've started a page for MicroliteNot20. If anyone wants to contribute, revise or add to, please feel free to hit "Edit this page" at the bottom 

I've set the baseline that an average human commoner would have STR, DEX, MIND and CHA of 2 each, and all skills at 1. This gives them a 3d6 roll for all skill checks, so I've set the DC for Easy tasks to 10, and gone up by 5 for each level after that. Comments and thoughts on that are welcome!


----------



## WSmith

Humm. I like it. I want to see what others think before adding layers to it. 

I take it armor will soak damage? Just curious, did you choose 20 wounds for any reason?


----------



## WSmith

The 4x5 spell system seems to fit nicely. I would, a least for me, require a charcater to have at least a 4 in MIND to cast spells, though. 

I like your target numbers better, also, considering that a TN of 8+ is a success in most 2d6 games. 

For missile damage, is it the total points above the TN required to hit in damage? 

The opposed Phys+STR (or DEX as may be) is good. I like it. But what if a character want to do some kind of stunt, like throw sand in the foe's eyes, or flip over a table and use it as a shield to flee? I would say that a stunt would be against a DC number, not the Phys+STR of the opponent, (that is just straight up melee battle.) Success at the test means whatever they want to do happens. 

So what would a sample character need?

STR 
DEX
MIND
CHA

Phys
Sub
Comm
Know

Simple monsters might just need a Fighting stat that would be like Phys+STR combined. 

Like:

Frost Cobra
FIGHT 4
Wounds 15
Schtick: (or trait) same roll on all four dice invokes frost breath for double damage.   

Skeleton
FIGHT 3
Wounds 10
Schtick: receive an extra die of damage from blunt weapon

Fireboar
FIGHT 5
Wounds 20
Schtick: same roll result on at least 3 dice invokes fire breath, extra 2d6 damage.
Schtick: moves twice as fast as humans.


----------



## greywulf

WSmith, I like it  Yep, I chose 20 for no good reason other than that it felt right. Add salt to taste. If it's too high (or low), go right ahead and edit the page. I won't shoot you. Promise!

Armour soaks damage sounds like a good idea. 

For weapons and any other modifiers, I suggest using fixed numbers. Unarmed is -3 to your roll, a dagger is +0, shortsword is +1, longsword +3, greatsword +5, etc. That means your average 3d6 commoner with a pitchfork (+2, say) would still give a 5d6 fighter pause for thought.

I agree, 4x5 magic would work very well indeed )

Add to the page as you see fit.

It all feels very Tunnels & Trolls-ish, especially with your monster stat ideas. 

Gotta love those Microlite systems, eh?


----------



## mhensley

greywulf said:
			
		

> I've started a page for MicroliteNot20.





This interests me more than the d20 version.  It looks like what d6 should have been.  It needs a new name though.  How about just Microlite Fantasy?  Or MicroliteD6?


----------



## Land Outcast

> How about just Microlite Fantasy? Or MicroliteD6?



Or "6, Elemental" or "Basic6" or "D-Cor6" 

Note that the d20 is more to my liking


----------



## greywulf

Awwww heck. It's just a throwaway. Call it whatever you want


----------



## Jawar

E X C E L L E N T job you did with the d20Microlite!

The whole downsizing of numbers is very appealing to me (I don't handle very well massive amounts of numeric data...    )

And the way you took off from vancian magic is a cool breeze!

My absolute congratulations!

PS: Now I need to evaluate all of it with ease, mainly the compatibility with SRD 3.5.
A Power Word Kill kills any character with 100 hp or less. So, is my character allowed a MIND bonus + his level save?
It's no fun if it's a straight death, since the conventional spell allows no save, right?


----------



## greywulf

Thanks for the kind words, Jawar. Glad you like it!

When it comes to spells like Power Word Kill I find that a better solution is for the GM to either keep them out of the hands of players, or (as I've done once) make "knowing their truename" a requirement for casting. That led to a huge quest/investigation for the group to remote libraries, dwarven loremasters and forgotten tombs just to piece together the syllables that formed their enemy's lineage. It made for a cool series of sessions that cumulated in the spell being cast successfully to their great relief. They did decide that the 3 months of research probably wasn't worth the effort though, and would just use long pointy metal in future.

Remember, there's _always_ a role-playing solution to the problem before fiddling with extra rules.


----------



## Jawar

On the DC's:

Instead of rolling the D6 and adding them together, why not just to look at the highest die rolled? 

Once I had a SF system that worked very well and we've played it for almost a year (pre 3.0) and the DC's were like:

 3 - easy
 4 - average
 5 - difficult
 6 - very difficult

Since we're talking low amounts of D6 here (I hope), cause there are D6 added for traits or circumstance penalties reducing dice, a balanced challenge should keep things to a 1 or 2 D6 rolled.

When making opposing rolls, the higher result wins.
On a tie, see the second best result.

As an added bonus, more than one die reaching the DC would make the action a FREE action.
Meaning, one could climb and STILL make an attack, make an extra attack, make an attack a make a full move, etc. A whole stunt cinematics thing at hand...


----------



## Jawar

greywulf said:
			
		

> Thanks for the kind words, Jawar. Glad you like it!
> 
> When it comes to spells like Power Word Kill I find that a better solution is for the GM to either keep them out of the hands of players, or (as I've done once) make "knowing their truename" a requirement for casting. That led to a huge quest/investigation for the group to remote libraries, dwarven loremasters and forgotten tombs just to piece together the syllables that formed their enemy's lineage. It made for a cool series of sessions that cumulated in the spell being cast successfully to their great relief. They did decide that the 3 months of research probably wasn't worth the effort though, and would just use long pointy metal in future.
> 
> Remember, there's _always_ a role-playing solution to the problem before fiddling with extra rules.




Those "kind words" were well deserved. I find it a hobby of sorts to create my own more or less compatible rules, so I believe that you went for it goooood.

I enjoyed your solution for heavy duty spells like powerwords: the mechanic of truenames as we've heard them since Earthsea suit them like a fine glove!


----------



## snikle

Jawar said:
			
		

> On the DC's:
> Instead of rolling the D6 and adding them together, why not just to look at the highest die rolled?




Only thing I see negative about that is it leaves very little room for _numerical_ variations and growth. Now if you see this as a play and forget rather than a campaign, I think that it works, if you were thinking of allot of gaming using this, I think that limitation would cause problems.

greywulf, I like the MicroliteNot20. It's funny you made this, I was just thinking last night of working up another rules-lite system.


----------



## Jawar

snikle said:
			
		

> Only thing I see negative about that is it leaves very little room for _numerical_ variations and growth.




I see your point:
Seasoned characters may find it "easy" to get through "very difficult" tasks.
The ones that really were "very difficult" when they were rookies.

But that is what we see in movies, right?
Legolas rides a mamooths back on a Phys DEX roll with incredible ease WHILE shooting arrows (evidently, he rolled a couple of 6s to perform it like a free action, according to my little rule).

Still, I envision some epic tasks ahead, when two or MORE D6 are necessary to achieve success at a task.

I know, it's a brisk step, from a single 6 result needed to _several_ 6s needed...
That's why they are epic tasks!


----------



## Larcen

Here is a little something I threw together today after being inspired by the small and simple bonuses on the MicroliteNot20 character sheet.  I've never seen anything like what I am about to propose, so someone let me know if it’s been done before.

*Ratio Resolution System*

Instead of using a D20, or a D6, or whatever, the bonuses being used determine the die type. As follows:

•	Whenever you have a success roll to make add the two bonuses together. These bonuses are the two bonuses involved in a contest or your total bonus added to the target’s difficulty rating.  
•	Round up to the nearest die type and roll that die.
•	If the number rolled is equal to or less than the lower bonus, low bonus wins and you are done.
•	If the number rolled is equal to or less than the total of both bonuses, high bonus wins.
•	If it’s neither of the above, roll again.

Example:  Player A has a bonus of +5 and is in a contest with player B who has a bonus of +6.  That’s 5 + 6 = 11, so use a D12.  On a roll of 1 thru 5, player A wins.   On a roll of 6 thru 11, player B wins.  On a roll of 12, roll again.

Example: +2 bonus vs. +3 bonus.   That’s 2 + 3 = 5, so use a D6.  On a roll of 1 or 2, lower bonus wins.  On a roll of 3 thru 5, higher bonus wins.  On a roll of a six, roll again.

Example: Your Open Locks is +4 and the lock is DC 6.  That’s 4 + 6 = 10.  Use a D10.  On a roll of 1 thru 4, you open the lock.  On a roll of 5 thru 10, the lock stays closed. 

Example:  Your total to-hit bonus is 5 and the opponents AC is 3.  5 + 3 = 8, use a D8.  On a roll of 1 thru 3, you missed (AC wins).  On a roll of 4 thru 8, you hit.

Example:  Your total to-hit bonus is 3, the opponents AC is 6.  3 + 6 = 9, use a D10.  On a roll of 1 thru 3, you hit.  On a roll of 4 thru 9, you missed.  On a roll of 10, roll again.

•	Negative bonuses add their base number to the higher score and are then considered a +1 themselves.

Example:  Your total to-hit is -2 and the opponent’s AC is 6.  That is 1 + (6 + 2) = 9, so use a D10.  On a roll of 1, you hit.  On a roll of 2 thru 9, you miss.  Reroll 10s.

•	If both bonuses are negative, use them like positive numbers but then the winners are reversed.

Example:  a bonus of -2 vs. a bonus of -5.  That is 2 + 5 = 7, so a D8 is used. However, -5 wins on 1 thru 2, and -2 wins on 3 thru 7.  Reroll 8 in this example. 

This system works best for games with low total bonuses.  Otherwise something like +18 vs. a +21 would have you rolling percentile dice until you get 39 and under, for instance.  Plus the math would take a second or two longer.  I think any system where the usual bonuses and target numbers are no more than +15 is good.  +15 should be extremely godlike talented , or extremely godawful difficult.  That way a D30 is the largest die you will need most of the time.  Along the same lines, systems where negative bonuses come up a lot is extra work for this as well.  Luckily these should be rare.

Note that this system always provides a proportional chance for success no what what the bonuses involved are.  Systems that use a set die type have the possibility of certain rolls being impossible to make.  This is both good and bad of course.   But I suppose if this system is used and the GM doesn’t want a chance of success he can just inform the player of his decision (maybe) and no roll is made.   Still, I am a softie GM and I would still have that +1 juggler try to juggle the 8 flaming pickaxes at a DC 29 and roll that D30.    

Questions?  Comments? Tomatoes?


----------



## snikle

Very interesting system and not one I have seen before either. I think it has real promise. a few comments:



> Example: Player A has a bonus of +5 and is in a contest with player B who has a bonus of +6. That’s 5 + 6 = 11, so use a D12. On a roll of 1 thru 5, player A wins. On a roll of 6 thru 11, player B wins. On a roll of 12, roll again.



I would suggest making this a draw, rather than a reroll. Attack was parried, or you almost got the lock picked, etc, try again next round. Or you could always say the extra numbers on the die are to the defender (or lock, etc), sort of the old defender always gets the benefit of the doubt thing. This would speed up the process.



> Example: Your total to-hit bonus is 5 and the opponents AC is 3. 5 + 3 = 8, use a D8. On a roll of 1 thru 3, you missed (AC wins). On a roll of 4 thru 8, you hit.



I would the person taking the action always the same. So 1-5 is a hit, 6-8 a miss. If it was the same person attacking an AC of 6, then roll a d12, 1-5 a hit, 6-12 a miss. Hmm might have to think about that more. If you kept the mechanic relatively the same it would also speed up the process.

Tomatoes are slimey.


----------



## Larcen

snikle said:
			
		

> Very interesting system and not one I have seen before either. I think it has real promise. a few comments:
> 
> 
> I would suggest making this a draw, rather than a reroll. Attack was parried, or you almost got the lock picked, etc, try again next round. Or you could always say the extra numbers on the die are to the defender (or lock, etc), sort of the old defender always gets the benefit of the doubt thing. This would speed up the process.




Yes, for certain rolls lke a contest between two people, the extra number on the die can very well be a "goes on to the next round" type of thing.



			
				snikle said:
			
		

> I would the person taking the action always the same. So 1-5 is a hit, 6-8 a miss. If it was the same person attacking an AC of 6, then roll a d12, 1-5 a hit, 6-12 a miss. Hmm might have to think about that more. If you kept the mechanic relatively the same it would also speed up the process.
> 
> Tomatoes are slimey.




I see where you are going with this.  You are saying the lower bonus doesn't always need to take the lower numbers on the die.  The person making the roll does.  That is indeed simpler since all you ever need to do at that point is roll your skill bonus or less on the selected die type.  Very simple.   

I went with lower bonus takes the lower numbers on the die mainly for contest-based rolls where two people are involved.  I such cases it was just easier to say the lower bonus takes the lower die numbers.

Thanks for the lack of tomatoes...


----------



## snikle

Yeah I was saying use the aggressor as the lowest set of numbers, the defender the higher set, consistancy and all that. People seem to enjoy the same mechanic for games (ref: see d20 for more information )

I like what you got here though, a little more complicated than I usually like, but I think the mechanic is sound in the way you applied it.


----------



## Larcen

snikle said:
			
		

> Yeah I was saying use the aggressor as the lowest set of numbers, the defender the higher set, consistancy and all that. People seem to enjoy the same mechanic for games (ref: see d20 for more information )
> 
> I like what you got here though, a little more complicated than I usually like, but I think the mechanic is sound in the way you applied it.




Thanks.  The whole system came about because I have been reading a lot of rules-lite systems lately and one thing kept annoying me.  That is since the bonuses are always so low, a huge discrepancy starts to show up fairly quickly between people who have relatively small differences in bonuses.  

For instance in Risus (a game that sounds super, BTW, and I would like to try it), a person with a rating of 2 seems to be in dire trouble going up against someone with a rating of 4.  The scales are tipped too far in one direction with the simple addition of 1 or 2 rating points.   

I like heroic fantasy concepts and so this ratio system was a way to allow even someone who is rated a +1 to have a chance of success against something that is rated a +8, for example.  Remember that success is not always killing the other player, in a hitpoint based combat system it may just mean inflicting a satisfying wound before meeting your maker...

In complex game systems this inequality is not as obvious since generally larger bonuses are used and contests are usually determined by many rolls.

Another thing I was trying to "fix" with this system was that systems that use a set die type either have this huge range of potential results (like rolling a D20 can give you +6 thru +25 for instance), or a range that seems to small and soon makes certain rolls impossible.  Hopefully with this ratio system any roll seems possible and the result ranges shouldn't be an issue.   

In other words the GM doesnt have to wrack his brain thinking "if I make this trap this DC, then it will be too easy for this player and impossible for this player."  He can just set a DC to the trap and everyone is guaranteed to have a proportional chance of success.


----------



## snikle

Man, I need more people like you over at fouruglymonsters.com, I am also showing people there the rules-lite systems I find and trying to get games ran using those systems. Got a few people interested in m20, but not much, seems everyone is stuck on d20 games. Maybe come on over and help me stir up the masses! 

I would have to say one thing I like about the system is the attack roll really being an opposed check. Where your ability at xxxxx is directly compared against your opponent's (and both have an effect on the outcome). That and it wrapped up in this nice little mechanic.


----------



## Larcen

snikle said:
			
		

> Man, I need more people like you over at fouruglymonsters.com, I am also showing people there the rules-lite systems I find and trying to get games ran using those systems. Got a few people interested in m20, but not much, seems everyone is stuck on d20 games. Maybe come on over and help me stir up the masses!
> 
> I would have to say one thing I like about the system is the attack roll really being an opposed check. Where your ability at xxxxx is directly compared against your opponent's (and both have an effect on the outcome). That and it wrapped up in this nice little mechanic.




Sorry, I suddenly got busy at work yesterday.  It happens.  

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion.  I'm honored!  I will check out that link at lunchtime today and see what the masses are up to there..

I have been thinking more about the Ratio system and what's bothering me at this point is that it becomes hard fairly quickly to give high level characters a real challenge without using a die larger than a D30.  For instance, once a player's skill reaches +5 or so, the only way to make a skill check really difficult for this player (5% chance of success or so) would be to make the DC huge and use a D100.   But I suppose if the all the GM really wants is to give the player a 5% chance at something, well then, just make it a 5% chance and roll the D100 regardless of what the relevant skill bonus is. 

Luckily I am seeing some nice advantages to the system already and they seem to outweigh the perceived disadvantages.   Need to think on it some more and maybe make list of the strengths and weaknesses inherent to the system for comparison.

A strange coincidence relating to all this is that I ran into another thread today that talks about all sorts of weird dice types:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=179612&page=1&pp=40

All these crazy sided dice would be perfect for a system such as this.


----------



## greywulf

It all sounds like far too much maths to me  I like my games fast and simple. Meesa lazy GM, self confessed.

That said, there's a lot of possibilities in the "using different dice" as a way of gauging difficultly. Doesn't Savage Worlds do this?


----------



## Larcen

greywulf said:
			
		

> It all sounds like far too much maths to me  I like my games fast and simple. Meesa lazy GM, self confessed.




Allow me to give you the abridged version then.  Here is pretty much the entire system expressed in a single sentence:

*Roll your rating or less on a die type determined by adding your rating to the target number.*

That's it.  Doesnt seem like much more math the usual "d20+bonuses vs. DC" does it?


----------



## snikle

I am working on a sci-fi map for use in a VGT and toying with the idea of running an Aliens style game on it, these rules might be just what I was looking for. Originally I was thinking of using m20 or simple20. Will have to look at each, want something fast and deadly, much like the movie was.


----------



## WSmith

mhensley said:
			
		

> This interests me more than the d20 version.  It looks like what d6 should have been.  It needs a new name though.  How about just Microlite Fantasy?  Or MicroliteD6?




Microlite Sixes?


----------



## snikle

Larcen said:
			
		

> I have been thinking more about the Ratio system and what's bothering me at this point is that it becomes hard fairly quickly to give high level characters a real challenge without using a die larger than a D30.




You know, if you ran this in a VGT, the dice would not matter much, almost all of them can roll any dice using a mechanic like /roll xDx or something like that, so you could roll a d17 if you wanted.


----------



## snikle

Ok, I took that mechanic you came up with and turned it into a full rules-lite system. This is still a work in progress, so ideas are welcomed! Sorry for high-jacking your thread greywulf, but figured that the guys here are all somewhat like minded on the rules-lite ideals. One thing I should add, I worked this up with the idea of using it in a VGT, so the 14, 17, and 23 sided dice are real possibilities using those applications, otherwise you would simply have to use the die upgrade as Larcen described.
Full kudos should be given to Larcen for coming up with the idea behind the core mechanic.

*Core Mechanic*
The Core Mechanic is used throughout the game, to put it in the simplest of terms “Roll your rating or less on a die type determined by adding your rating to the target number.”
In this system, the character that initiates a conflict is known as the attacker and any opposing force is the defender. The attacker adds his applicable Skill level to the connected Stat; the GM may then apply additional modifiers. This total is the attacker’s total (the lowest modifiers can reduce this to be is 1). The same is done by the GM for the defender to get the defenders total. These are then totaled together to determine the size die to be rolled by the attacker. If the roll is between 1 and the attacker’s total, the attacker succeeded, if the number is higher than the attacker’s total, then the defender succeeded in making the attacker fail. 
Example:
_
 Roger wants to pick a lock. His AGIL mod is +2 and his Lock-Picking skill is level 2. The door he wants to pick is determined by the GM to be a level 10 lock. Adding these together, the GM gets a 14 (10+4), determining that a d14 will be rolled. If Roger rolls a 1-4, he succeeds in picking the lock, if he rolls 5-14, he fails.
 Entering a room, Roger then spots a guard and decides to try to punch the guard. Using his Brawling skill at level 5 and his BODY mod of +3, he gets a total of 8. The GM determines the guard has a total of 4. Die rolled is a d12, on a 1-8 Roger decks the guard, on 9 or higher, the guard manages to evade Roger’s attack.
_
*Stats*
BODY 	– A measure of physical fitness
AGIL 	– How quick and dexterous
MIND 	– Level of mental ability

Stats range from 1 to 10. Stat modifier is calculated by dividing by 3 and rounding up (1-3=+1, 4-6=+2, 7-9=+3, 10=+4).

*Derived Stats*
LIFE 	– Equals BODY, how much damage one can take, at 0 you die
MOVE  	 – Equal to AGIL modifier, how many actions one can take per turn.

*Movement & Actions*
Movement is based on 10 foot grid squares. You can move your character the number equal to your MOVE score. In addition to moving, you can also perform a number of actions equal to your MOVE score. Actions are based in GM common sense and can be as simple as firing a weapon, dialing a phone, or as complex as performing first aid, hacking into a FBI computer, and cooking a gourmet meal. There are no additional modifiers to perform these actions, thus a character with a 2 MOVE, could move his 2 grid squares and then perform two additional actions with no penalty. Additionally, if the player wishes to, he may use those additional actions to move additional squares on a one for one basis. For example, if the above player moved his character his normal 2 grid squares and did not perform any other actions, he could convert his 2 additional MOVE to move his character 2 more grid squares.

*Skills*
Skills are tied to a Stat, the GM will make the determination using common sense what Stats are connected to what skills (Pistol and AGIL would make sense, as would Wrestling and BODY). Characters start the game with the number of Skill Points equal to their MIND. Skills cost 1 Skill Point to purchase, then each succeeding level costs the number of Skill Points equal to the level (e.g. 2nd level costs 2 SP, 5th costs 5).

*Skill/Action Checks*
Some actions require a check to be made; the determination is left to the GM to decide what requires a check and what does not. All Skill/Action Checks are resolved using the Core Mechanic. If a check is needed, the player will select the applicable skill, adding their Stat modifier to the Skill Level. Additional modifiers can be granted by the GM based on situational circumstances.

*Combat*
Melee is resolved using the Core Mechanic; the attacker uses an applicable melee skill and Stat Mod while likewise the defender uses the same. If the defender wishes to dodge, they may use their entire AGIL stat as a modifier, however the sacrifice all other actions that turn (but are still allowed their normal MOVE).
Missile combat uses the Core Mechanic, but instead of using the defender’s skill + Stat Mod, it uses the distance of the target. Count the grid squares from the attacker to the target, this serves as the defenders total. The target is allowed to dodge if they wish, and their AGIL is added to the defenders total.

*Weapons, Armor, and Equipment*
Dealing with weapons, armor and equipment is easily handled by applying modifiers to reflect their ability to cause damage, absorb damage and affect aspects of the game to various degrees.

*Weapons*
Weapons are handled in a simple way to expedite the game. They are listed in this format:  weapon name / combat modifier / damage. Missile weapons will also include a /ammo at the end to reflect that they have a limited capacity to cause damage.

*Rapid Fire Ranged Weapons*
Rapid fire ranged weapons are powerful tools in combat, and here is not difference. Rapid fire weapons are handled exactly as a regular ranged weapon except that they are able to affect more than one target, represented by a (#) following their damage rating. This number is the number of squares the weapon can hit with a single strike action. A separate Action Check is required for each grid, but all only count as one action for the character firing the weapon. The (#) in the ammo entry for the weapon denotes who many rounds are expended per rapid firing of the weapon, this is the number of rounds subtracted from the ammo each time a rapid fire is executed. The weapon must have the required number of rounds to do a rapid fire.

*Grenades*
Grenades are simply weapons thrown at a target area; they are listed similar to regular weapons: grenade name / combat mod / damage / effect type / effect area. To accomplish this, one makes a simple ranged weapon attack at a target spot (target does not get a dodge attempt; the player is aiming at a certain spot, not a person). If the throw is successful, the grenade lands in the grid the character was aiming at, if it misses, roll a d12 to find the direction the grenade missed (use the number like a clock) and roll a die equal to half the number of grids the target spot is away from the thrower. When the grenade lands, it explodes and causes the effect listed in its description in the area described.

*Armor*
Armor has the ability to protect the wearer from damage, here it is represented by having LIFE, in effect absorbing damage from attacks before they can affect your character and take their LIFE. They are listed in the same format as weapons: armor name / combat modifier / LIFE. Here the combat modifier represents the armor’s ability to protect the wearer from taking damage and LIFE represents the armor’s durability and resistance to damage. Hence a piece of armor with a high combat modifier is very strong or durable and might deflect lesser blows. One with a high LIFE score is made of tough material and is able to endure allot of damage.

*Equipment*
Equipment can vastly improve characters chance of succeeding, from Lock Picking tools to a Motion Tracker to a Medical Kit. Equipment will simply add an additional modifier to a Skill/Action Check. An easy example would be a First Aid Kit with the stats: First Aid Kit +4. It would add a +4 modifier to any person using it to perform first aid on a wounded character.


----------



## greywulf

Hijack away Snikle. I'm sitting back and enjoying the discussion


----------



## snikle

Thanks!


----------



## Larcen

snikle said:
			
		

> Ok, I took that mechanic you came up with and turned it into a full rules-lite system...




Wow, this is terrific.  I was off for a couple of days brainstorming another pet game concept I was inspired to type up, and when I get back you have this full blown system based on the ratio system I proposed.  Nice work.  

When I saw that you ran with it, I knew I had to get off my butt and read more of the forum you invited me to.  Despite the fact I dont usually spend as much time online on the weekends as I used too, I visited FUM... and I liked what I saw!  Beyond the cool products you guys have there, we need to talk more about those later, I can definately relate to the flexible and creative mindset of the people there.  I started up an account at FUM and we can talk more at that site. Despite being polite about it, I think Greywulf might be relieved to see less of this hijacking.    

Speaking of Greywulf...

I want to thank him for all he was done with M20.  It has given me hope that there are others out there who feel the same way as I do.  That rules can get a bit out of hand and start to become a detriment to a nice relaxing roleplaying experience.  If I can use a rules-lite system such as M20 I would look forward to finally ending the gaming hiatus I have been on for over a year now, having had a bad case of rules burn out with 3.xE.  From the general tone of a lot of the other threads on Enworld, I am sensing this critical mass of frustration building up in a lot of other gamers too.  So I think the time is right for rule-lite systems.  Good job in helping to fill these need.


----------



## snikle

I love what Greywulf and everyone here have done with m20, and I definitely agree with your thoughts on rules-lite systems. That is one reason I invited Greywulf to be a special guest and be interviewed for iCon. I want to spread the rules-lite love!   I will also be interviewing James Hargrove of simple20 fame (and about 500 other rpg systems, this guy gets around) and the guy behind Basic Fantasy RPG, to help foster more Rules-Lite/Old School interest.

What we need is some people running microlite20 AT iCon, we got two simple20 games slated to be ran, but if anyone out there is interested, please consider running a game during the convention. We all know D&D will be there, let's show others this great system. 

And Larcen, what can I say, your mechanic inspired me, just had to run with it. If you have not gamed in a while, you should get out the VGTs being showcased at iCon, if you are like many of the older players using them, life is just too hectic, too hard to find local players, the VGTs have helped many a gamer find a way to game again.


----------



## greywulf

It's good to see M20 sparking creative ideas in folks. Simplification is good for the soul. It's good to see folks disliking some of the concepts in Microlite20 then making their own system as a result. In a way, that's a better result than someone just using M20 as-is and not changing a thing. Inspiration is good too. Inspiration and simplification. Yeh.

Thanks to all the folks who've kept this going - it's _your_ enthusiasm that's keeping me going too! 

Snikle, my group is fiddling with Fantasy Grounds right now and loving it. I'm going to have a play too and see if I can get my head around this new-fangled virtual playing thing ready for the 'Con. Heck, I've only just mastered using dice that don't wear down at the corners.

If anyone wants to run a Microlite20-ish game for the Convention, I'd love to be included as a player, btw.

Now, if only I could find time to finish Big Shiny................


----------



## snikle

LOL Trust me, nothing about m20 made me want to do the above, I simply saw a mechanic I had never seen before, and probably like you did when you first thought up m20, said "Hmmm interesting, I wonder...." Then it just grew from there.

Glad to hear that you are trying FG, if you are liking it, wait until you see FG2, I am part of the beta testers (though seriously lacking in the testing due to iCon prep), but FG2 is stunningly better than FG. I too hope we can see a few m20 games being ran there.


----------



## WSmith

I am still working with the d6 version. I seem to only have about one day free for the next few weeks. I will post what I have later.


----------



## Larcen

In case someone on this thread is interested in what I came up with using the Ratio mechanic, please pop on over to

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3341784

...and comment away.


----------



## Pilsnerquest

Hey Larcen, Adventure Kids looks like fun. I call dibs on the schoolyard bully.


Pilsnerquest


----------



## Larcen

Thanks Pilsnerquest.  I posted the schoolyard bully at the other thread for ya.    

Greywulf, I was just at your M20 site and was impressed again by all the work you have done with it.  The site is very nicely laid out and clear.  I love how it's all about choosing your favorites from a veritable buffet of options.   Along those lines, I have a suggested project for you.  (I know, like you don't have enough already.)

As I was reading through all the optional rules, I got to thinking.  (It happens.)  Wouldn't it be great if people could just choose the rules they want from a checklist, then select a BUILD button, and all the pieces they selected get pulled together into a single document?  Then they can print out that document, stare at it lovingly, make copies, and hand it out to all their players.

Now I realize all this can already be done by spending an evening of cutting and pasting. But I think a feature like this would be unique, very popular, and should be doable without too much pain.  Maybe a spreadsheet in Excel?  Or at the website itself with some Javascript and XML skillz.

People would like the feeling of customization a Build Your Own System would provide.  I can see them adding a campaign name to the finished document.   "My M20 Rules for Dinklemoore Castle" or something.


----------



## greywulf

Larcen said:
			
		

> As I was reading through all the optional rules, I got to thinking.  (It happens.)  Wouldn't it be great if people could just choose the rules they want from a checklist, then select a BUILD button, and all the pieces they selected get pulled together into a single document?  Then they can print out that document, stare at it lovingly, make copies, and hand it out to all their players.




Wow. It feels like _months_ since I was in this thread. Ouch. My tempus has been fugiting way too much lately.

Larcen, that's a terrific idea! Consider it added to my todo list. 

Work has stalled on the Macropedia Big Shiny document because of lifestuff getting in the way, but hopefully I'll be back with it in the very near future.

The plan is to collate Microlite20, all of the optional rules, monsters, campaign setting(s) and adventures into one single document and stick it up on lulu.com as a print-on-demand offering as well as a free .pdf. So if anyone wants a copy of the whole thing they can toss around and scribble in the margins, it's there.

And I'll add a checklist in too. I like that idea.

Then I'll put together a "build-your-own" .pdf thingy as well as a separate document for download only. 

Phew! That'll keep me out of trouble for a while 

So, anyone else still fiddling with Microlite20?

(ps - the site is down right now due to the server having a bad case of hiccups. It'll be back soon though!)


----------



## Cymew

Not much fiddling, but I will play ToEE with M20 someday...


----------



## snikle

Greywulf, just posted your interview over on the iCon forum.
http://www.fouruglymonsters.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=69


----------



## Grimstaff

*How's this work In Play?*

Cool little system you've got here!   

I have a question regarding spellcasters: Am I correct in my interpretation that spells are cast directly from the character's hit points?

And if so, how has the system worked out in actual play for clerics, who are a bit more combat heavy and rely more on their hit points?

Has anyone tried using a seperate pool for spell-casting purposes? Would this too heavily unbalance spellcasters in this system?

Thanks!


----------



## Ar Nimruzir

> Of course, I've always been a big fan of the "less is more" ideology.



I heartily agree.

BTW: I really want to say thanks for this little gem of a game!
Basic D&D was even too rules heavy for me.
And... I despise Vancian magic with more vitrol than is healthy.

FWIW:
I use the mini-map from Judge's Guild First Fantasy (pg.12) as my micro "default setting". It's got plenty of coast, some rivers, mountains, hills, lakes, swamps, forests (I drew in even more), even a desert and an island. More than enough space for an extended micro-style campaign (oxymoron?). Than again, I'm using 0one's blueprint series as well for even more old school style micro goodness. Who needs flavor text?


----------



## bytor4232

greywulf said:
			
		

> So, anyone else still fiddling with Microlite20?




I keep a copy of the PocketMods and a set of dice in my bag for times where I'm out and about and want to play a quick Dungeon Crawl / Hack 'n' Slash game with the kids, or thow down with the guys.  So yeah, I still use it from time to time.


----------



## Hargifex

Here's an option to add some flexibility to casters:

For every 100 gp of rare / valuable components (e.g. incense, gems, etc) a caster uses (beyond any material components normally required for the spell) the cost to cast the spell is reduced by 1 HP.


Also, the fact that spell casting takes a physical toll opens up a possibility for evil casters.  After all, why is it that evil clerics and mages want to sacrifice victims?  Because they can use those victim's to power their spells instead of sacrificing HP.  But it's bound to be less efficient.  Maybe something like:

The better the victim, the more power than may be drawn from it.  The victim must be ritually slain to release the power for the spell, with the ritual taking a minimum of 1 round per level of the spell to be cast before the victim may be killed.  The victim's highest Statistic (Strength, Dexterity, or Mind) is used to power the spell's HP cost.  And HP cost not covered by the expenditure of the victim's highest stat must be contributed from the caster's own HP.

If you want to make it less valuable, simply say the stats convert at 2 : 1 to HP for the purposes of casting a spell.

Adds a really nasty twist and beefs up evil casters (and explains those strangely long rituals they are fiddling about with).


----------



## Hargifex

Question for M20 users:

How do you handle Conditions (e.g. paralysis, nauseated, shaken, etc)?  There are no rules in M20 for applying the effects of a ghoul's touch, for instance.  Obviously you can look in the SRD, but things start getting awfully finicky with all those modifiers.

I'd love to hear how people who have GMed m20 handle them, or any suggestions on how to handle them in a simpler way than the SRD.

Also - any suggestions for simplifying grappling?


----------



## greywulf

Wow. It's been a while since I was here. Sorry 'bout that. Blame lack of connection and workstuff. Ouch.

Hargifex, I like your ideas for magic. That's good juju.

When it comes to conditions like paralysis, stunned, etc I use the DM Rule of what's Good For Plot. Unless the victim is completely out of the action I'll impose a -2 to attack, AC and/or skills (whatever suits) then lift it at the end of combat. If they are paralysed or unconscious I might let them recover at some opportune moment without intervention, or at the end of combat with help.

For example, I might let a paralysed PC squire recover just in time to slay the Ghoul that's about to devour his master. That's Good For Plot, so works just fine by me.

Hope that helps


----------



## Cymew

Hargifex said:
			
		

> Here's an option to add some flexibility to casters:
> 
> For every 100 gp of rare / valuable components (e.g. incense, gems, etc) a caster uses (beyond any material components normally required for the spell) the cost to cast the spell is reduced by 1 HP.




Cool idea! I just re-read the Dragon Mag article "Living in a Material World" and the possibilities of material components opened up before me. Combine with m20 and it's instant happiness! Consider the idea stolen!


----------



## Grimstaff

Greywulf was kind enough to host the "expert" rules I came up with for my players. It adds some more races, some more classes like Ranger, Illusionist, etc, and a couple of other options.

http://home.greywulf.net/files/Microlite20ExpertRules.pdf


----------



## jmucchiello

I lost track of this thread. The conversation in February reminds me of my Poly-3 system. Someday I'll finish fleshing it out.


----------



## kensanata

*Grappling*



			
				Hargifex said:
			
		

> Also - any suggestions for simplifying grappling?




There is no grappling. Player's just declare that they're dealing non-lethal damage, then club their enemies into unconsciousness.

There's a more complicated solution in the Macropedia.


----------



## Grimstaff

kensanata said:
			
		

> There is no grappling. Player's just declare that they're dealing non-lethal damage, then club their enemies into unconsciousness.
> 
> There's a more complicated solution in the Macropedia.



How about simple opposed STR checks?


----------



## greywulf

Depends on the situationn, really. If you're trying to push the bad dude over a cliff, snatch something from his grasp of stop him swinging a +5 Bigass Sword of Nastiness, then an opposed STR check sounds fine. However, if you're grappling to pin so he's on the floor and out of action then that's sudbual damage.

In other words, you're both right


----------



## Mondbuchstaben

... MicoLlite 20 is like a Erol Otus painting on a grain of rice.

Greywolf & Co, consider yourself lucky.
Big ad companies get paid enormous sums of money to come up with claims like this.


----------



## greywulf

Wow. I'd missed that, and am flattered. That's very cool 

Sorry I've been out of action - loss of connection does that to a man. Grrrr. I'm hotspotting right now.

I'm still (slowly) working on Big Shiny with plans to release it as a softcover print edition when it's done. It'll contain the rules (2 pages), all of the house rules from the Macropedia, lots of monsters, a couple of different campaign settings and adventures. In other words, a complete (and I mean _complete_!) rpg in a book. And you all made it happen. I'm infernally grateful.

In other news, James has been kind enough to host the *official Microlite20 forum* over at Miscellaneous Debris. If you want to contribute, post ideas and toss around games design theory, that's the place to be.

See you there


----------



## jdrakeh

greywulf said:
			
		

> In other news, James has been kind enough to host the *official Microlite20 forum* over at Miscellaneous Debris. If you want to contribute, post ideas and toss around games design theory, that's the place to be.
> 
> See you there




And greywulf's a moderator (naturally), so you can consider it an owner-operated forum  (I'll only wield my awesome powers of administration by request).


----------



## derek_cleric

*The unfinished World of Ursia*

Hey all!

I thought that since others had presented new and rules-lite campaign settings, I would add Ursia to the mix. It was a world that I was working on for 35e a couple of years ago but I never completed anything other than a map and some description. I thought that since it's really a lite description that it would make a nice fit for ML20.

http://www.personal.psu.edu/tss109/dnd/Ursia/index.html
http://www.personal.psu.edu/tss109/dnd/Ursia/Ursia_24mile.png

--Ray.


----------



## greywulf

Hey that looks great! Suitably old school too; hex maps always bring a fond tear to me eye. Yours is excellent. Out of interest, how did you create it? I'm looking for a good way to make hex maps.

Your overview descriptions of the lands reminds me a lot of this ancient thread I'm currently re-reading over on RPGnet about 101 days of the Rules Cyclopedia. Funny how there's a big turnaround for all things old-school in the middle of this broohaha about the mythical 4th Edition of D&D. 

I guess role-playing is like cars; the more them become computerized, the more folks yearn for the raw mechanical simplicity of yesteryear.

I know I do.


----------



## derek_cleric

greywulf said:
			
		

> Hey that looks great! Suitably old school too; hex maps always bring a fond tear to me eye. Yours is excellent. Out of interest, how did you create it? I'm looking for a good way to make hex maps.




I made it with AKS Hexmapper (http://home.paonline.com/zaikoski/ak/TOOLS.HTM) and then added the coastlines and labels with a freeware graphics editor called Quick View (http://ccambien.free.fr/qv26.zip) I used The Gimp (http://www.gimp.org/) to resave the .bmp to a .png.

There's a new beta version of Hexmapper available via the Yahoo! Hexmapper group called Adventure Writer. It's Hex Mapper on steroids! You should check it out.

--Ray.


----------



## greywulf

Thanks for the links  I'll take a looksee and fiddle with it over the next few days.


----------



## Catavarie

What happened to the Microlite D20 links?  None of them seem to be functioning any longer.


----------



## greywulf

The server is kinda dead right now, but should hopefully be back online in the (very) near future, according to the admins.

Fingers crossed till then........


----------



## Ry

Hey 'wulf, I've got updated Conviction rules, and a death flag and a raise mechanic  that you might love for Microlite (or even ultramicrolite).  They're in the E6 document, they're OGL, please smash and grab.  See the sig for the link to the thread, the .pdf is being worked on by another.


----------



## derek_cleric

Darrell said:
			
		

> Well, if you have a look at the map I posted earlier, that's pretty much what you're gonna get with my Dragonclaw Barony setting.  Major cities and towns will be tagged, along with a few fortresses and known adventuring locales, and there'll be a few paragraphs of text describing what lies to the north, south, east, and west (as well as a basic history of the area), but I'm primarily leaving it open for DM development.




Darrell,

Just to double-check... DCB and the map are OGL, correct? I'd like to edit and reuse the map for another home brew fantasy setting if I could. 

--Ray.


----------



## mediapig

*D20 to Microlite20 conversion*

Hey, I'm new to this whole Microlite20 thing, and I have a really basic question.  I;m sure it;s been covered somewhere, but I can;t seem to find it.

When converting normal D20 characters & NPC's to Microlite20, how do you generate the Mind stat?  I wasn't sure if I should use INT, WIS, or an average of the 2?  Or something else?  If anyone knows, please let me know.  Thanks!

So far, I'm loving the system!  I can't believe it's so easy and quick, and yet so compatible with all the great support stuff out there for D20!


----------



## jdrakeh

mediapig said:
			
		

> When converting normal D20 characters & NPC's to Microlite20, how do you generate the Mind stat?  I wasn't sure if I should use INT, WIS, or an average of the 2?  Or something else?  If anyone knows, please let me know.  Thanks!




Personally speaking, I average standard d20 Stats to get Microlite ratings when converting, though I'm admittedly very picky when it comes to maths and game conversion (as some here can attest to).


----------



## mediapig

Cool, thanks for the info!  I was thinking of either doing that, or just using the Higher of the two, depending on class.  I was curious what the original intent was though.


----------



## mediapig

I think what I will do is this:

When Converting Clerics I'll use their Wisdom, since that is their focus.

When converting Mages I'll use thier INT, for the same reason

When converting all other classes, I'll average the two.

That way, the people who really depend on Mind don't get penalised, and everyone else doesn't have unusually high Mind scores.


----------



## greywulf

mediapig said:
			
		

> I think what I will do is this:
> When Converting Clerics I'll use their Wisdom, since that is their focus.
> When converting Mages I'll use thier INT, for the same reason
> When converting all other classes, I'll average the two.
> That way, the people who really depend on Mind don't get penalised, and everyone else doesn't have unusually high Mind scores.




Sounds good to me.

Considering I've still to .finalize the Big Ugly pdf of Microlite20, all the rules, options, adventures and game settings due to work commitments..........

........anyone fancy working on Microlite20 4th Edition? 

And if so, what would you change?


----------



## kensanata

*Simplify multiple attacks.*



			
				greywulf said:
			
		

> And if so, what would you change?




I think you should bury Big Shiny. Make it smaller. Make it Just Shiny.

As for 4th edition: I want to get rid of multiple attacks. Or, if not possible, have all attacks using the same attack bonus. And that is doable, I think! We're being generally a bit generous with multiple attacks (using the current attack bonus instead of the base attack bonus to determine the number of attacks) in order to simulate all the fighter bonus feats fighters no longer have. But there's wriggle room. For example:


Everybody just gets one attack.
In order to attack twice, you need to make both attacks at -2, if and only if your resulting attack bonus is at least +1.
In order to attack thrice, you need to make all attacks at -5, if and only if your resulting attack bonus is at least +1.
In order to attack four times, you need to make all attacks at -10, if and only if your resulting attack bonus is at least +1.


----------



## greywulf

kensanata said:
			
		

> Everybody just gets one attack.
> In order to attack twice, you need to make both attacks at -2, if and only if your resulting attack bonus is at least +1.
> In order to attack thrice, you need to make all attacks at -5, if and only if your resulting attack bonus is at least +1.
> In order to attack four times, you need to make all attacks at -10, if and only if your resulting attack bonus is at least +1.




I'm thinking of simplifying it even further, just to:

Everybody just gets one attack.

Works for me


----------



## mediapig

*Talents*

One thing I added to my game was a very simple Talent system, to work along with the skill system.  At character creation, Humans get 5 talent points, all other races get 4.  

A talent can be anything... a skill off the old SRD, a quality such as "poker face" or a new skill the player makes up, such as "seamanship."

You buy them on a 1 to 1 basis, so if I put 3 talent points into seamanship, and 2 into Poker Face, I get a +3 bonus on skill rolls involving boats, and +2 bonus to skill rolls involving bluffing at the card table.  These bonuses are in additon to the skill levels involved.  These would generally only apply to non combat situations, but the DM might let players use them to reduce penatlies when appropriate.  For instance, 2 characters are fighting on a boat in stormy seas, with a -2 penatly.  The DM might allow the character with seamnship +3 to use his talent, and eliminate the penalty.

I added this just to give a bit of variety between two characters of the same class, but still keep things really simple.  I love the four skill system, and definetely don't want to lose that!  But it seemed to me a fighter who is a pirate on the high seas, for instance, should have a way to be better with boats than a mountain barbarian!

Speaking of, I go back and forth on this, but what do you think of adding Barbarian & Ranger classes?  Too much?  I could go either way...


----------



## kensanata

greywulf said:
			
		

> I'm thinking of simplifying it even further, just to:
> Everybody just gets one attack.




Hurray!


----------



## bytor4232

Hey guys!  I haven't posted in a while, but I'm still using Microlite20.  I wanted to drop a line about a Microlite20 experience I had this weekend.

My mother in law had to go into the hospital for a Dissected Aorta.  I volunteered to keep the kids happy (my kids, nieces, and nephews, all under 10).  We played a few games, then they wanted to play D&D.  I always carry a set of dice and the PocketMods of Microlite20.  Everyone had a great time.  It really helped them to take their minds off the surgery and reasons for being up at the hospital.  We rolled up the characters in about five minutes.  I drew the dungeon on the fly on graph paper, and they indicated where they were.  I threw in random monsters, traps, and whatnot.   In the time it would have took to roll up D&D characters, we had played through about a dozen encounters.

I know I've said it before, but Microlite20 is awesome.  Tonight was a prime example of where this game system just shines.


----------



## greywulf

mediapig said:
			
		

> One thing I added to my game was a very simple Talent system, to work along with the skill system.  At character creation, Humans get 5 talent points, all other races get 4.
> {snip}




Interesting idea. Maybe something like Risus' cliche idea might work for this; pick a schtick, situation or trait for your character, get a +2 when it applies. Kinda like 1,001 of all the Feats out there, but genericized. 5 talent points is too many though; I'd suggest 2 at 1st level, with an extra 1 every 5th level on.

For example, a brash Barbarian type could have "Stronger when angry" to get +2 damage when he's riled, and "Brother to the Wolf" to get +2 to situations involving wolf, doggies and other canines and members of the Wolf Tribe.

A ranger-type could take "Great tracker" to get +2 tracking stuff, and "One with the arrow" to get +2 to hit with the bow.




			
				mediapig said:
			
		

> Speaking of, I go back and forth on this, but what do you think of adding Barbarian & Ranger classes?  Too much?  I could go either way...




Did you see what I did then?  Didya? Didya?


----------



## greywulf

bytor4232 said:
			
		

> {snip}
> 
> I know I've said it before, but Microlite20 is awesome.  Tonight was a prime example of where this game system just shines.




Man, that's excellent, and //exactly// what Microlite20 is designed for. 

you make me happy


----------



## mediapig

greywulf said:
			
		

> Interesting idea. Maybe something like Risus' cliche idea might work for this; pick a schtick, situation or trait for your character, get a +2 when it applies. Kinda like 1,001 of all the Feats out there, but genericized. 5 talent points is too many though; I'd suggest 2 at 1st level, with an extra 1 every 5th level on.
> 
> For example, a brash Barbarian type could have "Stronger when angry" to get +2 damage when he's riled, and "Brother to the Wolf" to get +2 to situations involving wolf, doggies and other canines and members of the Wolf Tribe.
> 
> A ranger-type could take "Great tracker" to get +2 tracking stuff, and "One with the arrow" to get +2 to hit with the bow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you see what I did then?  Didya? Didya?




Yeah man, something like that!  One of the things I love about the system is how simple the characters are, while staying true to their essence.  I don't think it's a coincidence that the ONLY monk chracter I have ever made in my life was a Microlite20 monk.  "Oh, I see, his fists are like weapons, and his armor class goes up naturally... cool!"

That's all I need.  Barbarian": "He's good in the wild and get's stronger when he's angry... cool!"  Save the rest of the detail for the players and role playing!


----------



## greywulf

Folks, I'm pleased to announce that Microlite20 made the front page of ENWorld last Friday as one of the highest replied-to threads in the forums  Well done, guys!!

If you're a first time visitor to this thread, all hail and well met. I hope you enjoy your stay.

Rather than expecting you to wade through all these pages, here's a quick recap:

Microlite20 is a minimalist, ultra-light set of rules designed to be usable with published d20 adventures with little or no conversion. The rules are available online, as a pdf, rtf or as a PocketMod for true backpocket gaming. The Core rules contain character generation, skills, magic, combat, level advancement and a grab bag of monsters, all in 2 pages or a single web page. Cool, eh?

It's free to use, download and adapt as you see fit. I'm Greywulf, the author and (sometime benevolent) dictator. I lay claim to the 986-ish words that make up the Core. Everything else has been created by myself and all the great folks in this thread who like their games fast, freeform and simple. 

There are lots of supplements, adventures and campaign settings. They're all available for download over at the Microlite20 Macropedia. There's even Microlite20 Modern there, too, and a critter generator, and an online chat/gaming tool. We got the lot.

Microlite20 is also very easy to customize - in fact, it practically aches to be personalized  It has spawned countless variants, and lots of House Rules too, all depending on the preferred style of play. Just pick and choose as you see fit.

While Microlite20 is d20 compliant, the rules do differ from D&D in several key ways. There are just three stats (STR, DEX and MIND), though CHA is sometimes House Rule'd back into the mix. Races and classes are much simplified, and the skill system uses just four skills and a floating ability bonus mechanism. Magic is - most controversially - based off Hit Points. I like that, some don't, and that's cool. There are several variant spell systems available too.

Most obvious topics about Microlite20 have been pretty well covered in this thread already, including:

* How Microlite20 handles high-level play (in short, it does pretty well, but it's better at low-level)
* How the skills map onto D&D skills.
* Adding CHA (or WIS) back into the game. (no problem!)
* Character class balance.
* Multiple attacks per round, cleave and two-weapon fighting

If you've questions about any of these topics, please check through the thread first as it's probably been covered already. Better yet, check the Macropedia to see if there's any House Rules or discussions up there too.

I've got plans to release a compiled pdf of Microlite20 with all the House Rules, settings, etc sometime through lulu.com, but this is currently on hold until my own gaming group gets back into the mood for some Microlite20 gaming. I can only hold one system in my head at a time, it seems 

Phew! That's a lot of posts washed over, so my apologies if I've missed anything. 

Oh, and hello!


----------



## Deimodius

Hello, everyone. I'm a bit late to the party (by about a year) but I discovered this thread on the ENWorld home page and was instantly sucked in. Though I have not ready every single post, I have spent the last week slogging through EVERY page! It is amazing to do it, and to see how this system (and the alternates) progressed from Greywulf's first post until today. 

I also noticed that this thread went like gangbusters for so long, and then suddenly fell off! What happened?

Anyway, here is my first quasi-contribution. I say "quasi" because it's not my idea, but someone else's and I haven't seen it discussed.

For having a cleric turn, why not use the alternate Turning rules from the Unearthed Arcana? They are OGL, are they not? (Although for m20 they should be modified a bit).

The Undead Turning: Level Check variant (UA pg67) has the cleric make a level check against each undead up to a certain HD limit, and within the 60' range. The cleric's level check (like a Wizards level check) is 1d20 + Cleric lvl + Cha mod. The DC to beat is 10 + Monster HD + Turn Resistance (if any) + Cha mod. A cleric can affect a number of HD worth of creatures = to Effective Cleric lvl x 3. Any affected creatures are "frozen in place for 1 round as if paralysed" (even creatures with immunity to paralysis). The cleric can concentrate each round to prolong the effect up to 10 rounds. If the creature is attacked or takes damage, the effect is broken and the creature can act normally on it's _next turn_. UA also suggests that if you use this variant, undead with turn resistance of +4 or higher should get a turn resistance increase of an extra +2.

Beating the DC by 5 or more means the cleric can choose to turn or rebuke (if evil) the undead normally (rather than just freezing them). If the creature's HD is = to 1/2 the Cleric's lvl or lower, no check is needed (it automatically succeeds), the undead is destroyed, and it still counts towards total HD worth that can be affected.

For m20, I would see it working something like this:

Turn Check = 1d20 + Clr lvl + MIND mod
DC = 10 + creature HD + Turn Resistance + MIND mod

In the interests of speeding play, the PC makes only 1 turn check roll and it is applied to all undead within range from lowest to highest HD in order until all HD that cleric can affect are used. So a lvl 1 cleric can affect a total of 3 HD worth of undead with that one check.

As above, undead with HD equal to or less than 1/2 the cleric's lvl are automatically affected and are destroyed. HD of these undead are still part of total HD that can be affected.

The cost to use this ability is a loss of HP equal to the total HD the cleric affects (or chooses to affect).

Is this simple enough for m20? Does it unbalance the classes?

EDIT: So I just read through the most recent version of the rules and see that the rule there for Turning Undead is pretty simply, and I like that it becomes easier with damage done to the creature. I believe I recall a post where someone said that would add to the tactics of it.

Shouldn't it cost something to use this ability, though, to balance with the Magi? Perhaps a number XP equal to the total HD turned?


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## Darrell

Deimodius said:
			
		

> Hello, everyone. I'm a bit late to the party (by about a year) but I discovered this thread on the ENWorld home page and was instantly sucked in. Though I have not ready every single post, I have spent the last week slogging through EVERY page! It is amazing to do it, and to see how this system (and the alternates) progressed from Greywulf's first post until today.




Better late than never!      Welcome aboard!  I haven't posted to the thread in a while myself, but was fairly active early on.  Yes, the development of m20 has been incredible.



			
				Deimodius said:
			
		

> I also noticed that this thread went like gangbusters for so long, and then suddenly fell off! What happened?




Well, I can't speak for the other folk, but in my case, I put together what I consider to be 'perfect' microlite20, and have been playing it instead of posting.  



			
				Deimodius said:
			
		

> Anyway, here is my first quasi-contribution. I say "quasi" because it's not my idea, but someone else's and I haven't seen it discussed.
> 
> For having a cleric turn, why not use the alternate Turning rules from the Unearthed Arcana? They are OGL, are they not? (Although for m20 they should be modified a bit).




Cool idea.  Personally, I've taken to using an m20 version of the 'Positive Energy Burst' variant from _Complete Divine_.  When the cleric says he's going to attempt a turn, every undead critter within 30 feet must make a "Will save" (I'm one of the 'heretics' who put Charisma back in, as well as a fifth skill called 'Personality,' so I use a Personality + CHA check for the 'Will save;' 'regulation' m20-ers could probably use Knowledge + MIND).  If the critter fails the check, he takes 1d6 points of damage per the cleric's level.

Well, welcome, once again.    Hope you enjoy playing with m20.  I know I do.  My group plays it more often than D&D now.  

Regards,
Darrell


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## greywulf

Darrell said:
			
		

> Better late than never!      Welcome aboard!  I haven't posted to the thread in a while myself, but was fairly active early on.  Yes, the development of m20 has been incredible.




Hasn't it just? Hellol, Deimodius. A new contributor to this thread is always a pleasure.



			
				Darrell said:
			
		

> Well, I can't speak for the other folk, but in my case, I put together what I consider to be 'perfect' microlite20, and have been playing it instead of posting.




Same here. I ran out of things to take away  - and that, after all, is what M20 is all about. Adding is cool too. Oh yes.

{snip}

I'm kinda snowed today, but I'll add Deimodius and Darrell's take on Turning Undead to the Macropedia tomorrow, unless some kind soul beats me to it. 



			
				Darrell said:
			
		

> Well, welcome, once again.    Hope you enjoy playing with m20.  I know I do.  My group plays it more often than D&D now.




Things like this give me a happy face. Yay!

/later.


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## greywulf

There. I've added both set of Turning Undead rules to the Macropedia over here . 

Enjoy. Unless you're Undead, of course.


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## Deimodius

*M20 for the Palm OS*

I've converted the core rules document into files that can be used on the Palm OS. The first is a .pdb (PalmDOC) file that requires a reader (there are lots of free ones) but doesn't have any nice line breaks. The second is a Word Doc (so you can open it in regular MS WORD) which can be used on the Palm OS if you have Docs-to-go by Data Viz.

You can get them on my D&D page at: http://deimodius.tripod.com/dnd/


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## Grimstaff

Hey, Greywulf, I sent you a .pdf of the campaign setting I use for Microlite20. Its designed to be only one double-sided page, and for me has been quite playable with a lot of room for expansion.

I'm tinkering with the idea for a MicroAdventurePath. That'd be, like, 20 pages for a whole campaign, right?


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## Deimodius

A question re: turning. In the M20 raw it says that to turn a cleric makes a Magic Attack check against a DC equal to the HP of the undead, but _how many_ undead can the cleric affect with one check?

Perhaps it should be that the cleric makes a Magic Attach check against a DC he does not know. The DM sees the result of the cleric's roll and starts applying it as damage to Undead from closest to farthest out to 60'? So if the cleric's check totals 22, and there are  5 undead creatures with 6 HP each, the first 4 undead are destroyed, but the remaining undead creature still has 2 HP left.


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## Darrell

Deimodius said:
			
		

> A question re: turning. In the M20 raw it says that to turn a cleric makes a Magic Attack check against a DC equal to the HP of the undead, but _how many_ undead can the cleric affect with one check?




That's one of the reasons I started using the variant from _Complete Divine_.  It affects _every_ undead creature within 30 feet, which should be fairly easy for the DM to adjudicate by looking at the map of the encounter area.  If it a 30x30 foot room, all of 'em have to make a Knowledge + MIND check or take 1d6 damage/cleric's level.  If it's a 50x40 room, everything beyond a certain area is unaffected.  I like it 'cuz it's simple, and after all, simplicity is m20's stock-in-trade.    

It would be fairly simple to apply a similar rule to turning in the m20 RAW.  Everything in a certain area is affected, and the DM decides the DC of the Magic Attack check on the fly, based on what kind of undead are involved.

Regards,
Darrell


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## greywulf

So much happens when I'm busy 

Grimstaff, I've uploaded your lovely setting here. I love me some City States! Many thanks.

Al has kindly agreed to release Lands of Lyrion under the OGL license. This means that this is a seting that’s free for anyone to use, customize and personalize however they want including have as a default campaign setting for their own published adventures. That would mean fan-made adventures (including those sold on RPGNow, etc) could say “If you’re using the Lands of Lyrion, this adventure takes place just outside the City of Nythra".

This is very, very cool; more settings, adventures and fluff should be OGL. Many thanks for that!

Deimodius, I've added the link to your .pdb edition of the Core Rules to the Microlite20 Downloads page too. My Palm died many moons ago sadly  I miss her.

As for Turning Undead, the intention is that the Cleric makes the roll and that's how many hit points worth of Undead he turns. If he rolls a 20, that might be 2 x 10hp critters, or a single 18hp beastie. That's not clear in the rules. Sorry. My bad. I'll fix on next revision.


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## robocoastie

Technomancer said:
			
		

> Greywulf,
> 
> Just from reading it over once, why would anyone play a rogue? Fighters have more armor choices and get the bonus to attack and damage, wizards and clerics get their spells, but the rogue gets nothing but a +3 to one skill, which all the other classes get as well in addition to their other abilities.




you've become too restricted to the anal retentive skills introduced into 3.x and which permeates MMORG's. MicroLite20 takes after the philosophy of original D&D in which rules were fudged or even ignored and more was left up to the PLAYER than the character. RP done correctly would allow the more brilliant an idea the player comes up with to trump rules rather than be confined to charts and die rolls.


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## Grimstaff

robocoastie said:
			
		

> you've become too restricted to the anal retentive skills introduced into 3.x and which permeates MMORG's. MicroLite20 takes after the philosophy of original D&D in which rules were fudged or even ignored and more was left up to the PLAYER than the character. RP done correctly would allow the more brilliant an idea the player comes up with to trump rules rather than be confined to charts and die rolls.



Rogues get sneak attacks, too.


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## Grimstaff

I ran a quick 1-hour Micro demo the other night with 3 players while waiting for the other 2 to show up. It involved a riverbarge chase, an angry lord, and some ugly aquatic ankhegs, in the Wilderlands (near Tarantis). 

Had a blast!

This game takes all of 5 minutes to roll up characters and learn the basic rules, provided everyone has at least a basic knowledge of D&D in general.

I'm newly amazed by this system each time I run it. The books are nice and light too...


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## Ry

I'm dabbling in microlite territory again... one of my players convinced me to give it a shot.  

The request was for 6 stats, level, class, and race to matter like they matter in D&D, but we get to do a bunch of other cool stuff too, at the very least Conviction and Raising the Stakes.

Oh, man!  I just figured out how to do freeform magic off of the spell-based Microlite20 magic system!  Raising the Stakes!  OMG.


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## yonagi

*Microlite20 and Assistance With Supplements*

I've recently come back to playing 3.5; mostly due to the fact that my wife and I really, really wanted to try E6. So we are doing so. But we're interested in trying Microlite20 next. Possibly with E6 and Raising the Stakes. Which led to the following question:

Has anyone tried implementing maneuvers from _The Tome of Battles_ into Microlite20?

I'm wondering if a class from that sourcebook should just be treated as a Fighter, lose the +1 attack/damage bonus, and gain maneuvers in its place is a worthwhile trade. Or perhaps just having each maneuver as a spell effect that these classes can learn. Would the first option effectively make the character akin to an armored mage?

Thoughts?


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## Whisper72

Is there any sight when a new version of the Big Shiny will become available?


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## greywulf

Phew. I've been offline for a while (ok, a few months, on and off. Ouch!), but (as of about 5 minutes ago), we're baaaaaaaaaaack 

Boy, am I glad too.

Big Shiny will be out when my gamer group gets back into Microlite20. Right now we're stuck in the middle of an (excellent) d20 Modern campaign, alternating with a D&D "back to basics" campaign. After that, who knows..............


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## Ry

Welcome back 'wulf!  Can I bounce some ideas off of you?  I'm working on something Microlite-ish.


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## greywulf

Sounds good to me, Ryan!

Bounce away.


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## Ry

So here's the idea:
Stat mods like 3e (STR +0, DEX +1, etc.) and Level.  
Add level to each stat and you have the secondary stats: Might, Reflex, Fortitude, Insight, Will, and Style.  Hitpoints are (5+CON)*Level.  
Core mechanic is Players (and players only) roll 1d20+Secondary Stat+Modifiers versus target number.  Thus, when PCs avoid being hit, they roll 1d20 and add Reflex (in light armor) or Fortitude (in heavy armor).  

NPCs and obstacles are defined in essentially the same way, except that instead of rolling the GM adds the following based on how hard the action is for the PC:

NPC's Roll, based on PC's difficulty
5 = Easy
10 = Average
15 = Difficult
20 = Daunting

(Edit: These are also what the "world" rolls if no opposition is involved)


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## Ry

So far so good?

Edit: I should add that the reason for this was one of my old crew asked me to write a lite d20 that still had "5th Level Dwarven Fighters" and "STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA" so I'm looking at microlite and doing that.


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## greywulf

Ryan Stoughton said:
			
		

> So far so good?
> I should add that the reason for this was one of my old crew asked me to write a lite d20 that still had "5th Level Dwarven Fighters" and "STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA" so I'm looking at microlite and doing that.




Hmmmm..... There's a lot of appeal to the idea. I especially like the idea of Might, Insight and Style in effect being additional saving throws. I'd love to be able to tell one of my players to Save vs. Style.  

It's the beginning of a good idea. I like. The Might secondary stat could easily replace BAB. 

How would classes work? What about Medium armour? Light weapons?

Tell me more..........


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## Ry

*Skill Level Modifier*
-10 Completely unknown
-5   Inexperienced /  Untrained
0    Trained / Adept
+2   Skilled
+5  Expert

Without class and race, think of every protocharacter as essentially a chump.  Every action is either untrained or completely unknown.  The description of class and race are what make some things skilled and trained.  This means you can define classes and races in words, which I think is cool (and which I'm working on). 

I'm a fighter.  What does that mean?  I'm skilled with fighting in heavy weapons and armor.  That means that if I'm in heavy armor and someone's swinging at me, I've got the +2 to my Fortitude action.  

I'm a wizard.  What does that mean, qua heavy armor?  Gosh.  I have no idea about defending with heavy armor.  I mean, I've seen the fighter do it, but I'm basically at -5 for any such action.

I'm a cleric.  I'm capable of using heavy armor and untrained in light/no armor.  I'd better grab some so at least I'm not at the -5 like I am when naked.  

I'm a thief.  I'm capable in light armor.  That's what I'll be wearing.  

As for light weapons - it's like anything else.  What stat works best with that?  Well a rapier or a dagger - that's a Reflex action.  Sniping with a heavy crossbow?  Could be Insight.  This is a GM-makes-the-call kind of lite but it's "do what's reasonable".


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## Ry

LIke so many things, I'm making the difference between medium and heavy armor descriptive, with the caveat that descriptive is important when you've been thrown into a river and need to lighten the load, or are trying to jump over a pit full of spikes, or someone is aiming at your legs, or when you're being pelted from all directions by blowdarts.

When it matters, descriptive feeds directly back into that Easy / Average /Difficult / Daunting scale and the Skilled/Untrained scale.  When it doesn't matter, it doesn't get in the way.

Now, please forgive that this stuff is really half-baked.  I haven't written the all-encompassing perfectly balanced set of classes and races.  Given that, how does this sound so far?


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## greywulf

Pretty good so far, Ryan.

If you head in the direction you're going btw, you'll reach a point where hit points become redundant as weapon "damage" could just become fixed bonus to your attack roll (unarmed +0, dagger +3, shortsword +4, longsword +5, etc). They you'll need to find something to replace hp with. A damage track, maybe.

Just food for thought


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## Ry

My players want to keep hit points and in terms of translateability I can see why.  We'll be in level 1-6 territory, maybe 1-10 tops.  So we'll still have 1d8 damage on a longsword - but we'll be going 1d6 on the magic missile (since it's resisted now).


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## kensanata

Ryan Stoughton said:
			
		

> Core mechanic is Players (and players only) roll 1d20+Secondary Stat+Modifiers versus target number.  Thus, when PCs avoid being hit, they roll 1d20 and add Reflex (in light armor) or Fortitude (in heavy armor).




I don't understand. Have you skipped some info or would this be obvious to me if I had read True20 or something like that? I faintly remember you liking "players roll all the dice." Is that it?

Here's what I think you're saying: enemies take 10 on their attack rolls and players roll saves to avoid being hit. So the evil bandit using a longsword has +2 (1d8+1) and attacks: Player rolls a Fortitude or Reflex save against the attack DC of 12 (10+2) depending on the armor he's wearing.

But what do you use Might, Insight and Style for?

I don't think I like players rolling all the dice. I think I'd prefer what I heard they're doing for 4th ed.: All actions mean roll dice, all reactions are a DC to beat. In other words, no saving throws (because these would be a reaction resulting in a dice roll).

All spells that require a save on behalf of the target now require an attack on behalf of the caster instead. The DM gets to roll lots of dice.


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## Ry

Players roll all the dice has been awesome in my games.  It will be even easier to implement in 4e.  Basically all you need to do is convert 

NPC's Stat + DM's Roll vs. *Player's Static # *+ Player's stat

into 

NPC's Stat + *DM's Static #* vs. Player's Roll + Player's stat

So long as you're careful with your math when you set up the system, the two are identical.  That means whenever anything interesting involving the PCs happens, the PC rolls and the GM's just calls out success or failure.  Keeping my hands free has been great.

For example, NPC's +5 attack + DM's 1d20 vs. *10* + (Player's Armor bonus and Dex bonus) is equivalent to NPC's +5 attack + *12* vs. Player's 1d20 + (Player's Armor bonus and Dex bonus).
(The 10 changes to 12 because the one who rolls wins the tie).


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## Ry

As for the rest, you roll Might when you're attacking with a big axe, you roll Insight when you're trying to find a secret switch or cast a spell, you use Style to impress a crowd.


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## Satori

I think I just pooped a little.

I want to make hawt, sweet, inappropriate love to Microlite20.

Seriously, this system (I skipped all 40 pages, so I'm talking about the core PDF you handed out) makes me want to DM again.

What I love about it is how easy it is to ad-hoc and customize the content.

PC 1: I want to play a Drow Rogue!  What are my stats?
Me: Hmm...Drow...Dex +1 Mind +1

PC 2: I want to play a Half Orc Warrior!
Me: +3 STR -1 Mind

PC 3: I want a Half-Celestial Cleric!
Me: +1 Mind +1 Communication +1 Social, but you're 1 level behind.

---

The ECL leveling system is genius.  

The encounter system is brilliant. 

---

The only modifications I would make would be the following:

Warriors get +1 BAB every even level (in addition to +1 per level), Rogues are +1 per level, and Mages/Clerics are +1 every even level (no +1 per level).

Warriors are All Armor/Weapons, Rogues are all One Handed weapons and ranged, Mages/Clerics are all 1d6 or lower weapons and ranged (Blunt for Clerics...I'm old school! Leave me alone!)

---

Spells are even simpler than you say.  They still cost HP, but I'd do something like:

Mage:
-Damage 
-Control
-Charm
-Summon

Cleric:
-Heal
-Buff
-Damage
-Protection

I would then come up with a constant variable (1d6 per level) and let the PCs decide what level they want to make the spell. Something like Die Number/2 = Level (round up)

PC:I want to cast a 5d6 Fireball!
Me: Ok, take 3 HP damage!

PC: I want to charm an NPC with a DC of 18!
Me: Ok, take 4 HP 

Or something like that.

---

I love it!  I can't say that enough!

Thanks for putting it out there!


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## Satori

I've already started to tweak and modify the rule set.  

This is what I've done so far:

Fighters add +1 to all attack and damage rolls every third level. They can wear any kind of armour and use shields. They have a +3 bonus to Physical.

Rogues can use light armour, one handed weapons melee and all ranged. They have a +3 bonus to Subterfuge, and are the only class that has access to this skill. If they attack an opponent before the opponent acts in a round, they add 1d4 x (level/2) damage to the first attack.

Mages wear no armour, and can only use weapons that do 1d6 or less. They can cast arcane spells, and gain a +3 bonus to Knowledge.

Clerics can wear light or medium armour, and can only use blunt weapons that do 1d6 or less. They can cast divine spells. They gain +3 bonus to Communication.

Hit Points = Max HD + STR bonus per level
HD: Fighter d10, Rogues d8, Casters d6

Casters choose the level of their spell.  Minimum levels are listed. See magic categories.  DC = Spell Level + MIND bonus.

Mage Categories:
-Damage: Automatic hit, save for half, choose energy type, inflicts 1d6 per caster level. Spell level = Number of Damage Dice/2 (rounded up)
-Control: 1st-Half Movement, 2nd-Held (Not Helples), 3rd-Helpless, 4th-Confusion, 5th-Wall, 6th-Anti-Magic, 7th-Teleport, 8th-Polymorph, 9th-Time Stop
-Charm: 1st-Charm Person, 2nd-Sleep, 3rd-Suggestion, 4th-Charm Monster, 5th-Dominate Person, 6th-Geas, 7th-Power Word, 8th-

(as you can see, I'm hardly halfway done)

---

I like my PCs to be VERY survivable, so I've added a bit to the player power curve.

Also, I HATE waiting for players to dig through spell compendiums...and I hate making players wait while I do so.

Hence, the re-tooling of magic.

There are no longer hundreds of spells...only spell types.

Players are instead given the option of customizing these spell types to their needs.

PC 1: I want to shoot a 3rd level fireball!
Me: You take 3 HP.

PC 2: I would really have a more "dark" vibe to my character, so I'm going to shoot a 3rd level negative energy blast.
Me: You take 3 HP.

For the none damage spells, certain types of effects will have a level minimum, and I'm still trying to work out how I'll separate AoE versus Single Target.  Add 2 levels maybe?  Subtract a level for single target? i.e. A 3rd level Single Target spell does 6d6 damage, but counts as a 2nd level spell for HP loss.


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## greywulf

Very neat 

Welcome to the microfarm, Satori. I love me my little baby Microlite too, and I'm just happy to share it around.

I like your micro-magic system in particular. Feel free to add it to the Macropedia!


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## Satori

Alright!  I finally took a few minutes to finish my mini-magic system.

Casters get 8 + STR Bonus HP per level, spells cost 1 + level HP

Casters choose the level of their spell.  Minimum levels are listed. See magic categories.  DC = Spell Level + MIND bonus. Duration = 1 round/level or one encounter or one day (per DM).

Specialization: Casters may specialize in a single Category, lowering the HP cost by 1.  They must then select another category that will be prohibited to them.

Mage Categories:
-Damage: Automatic hit, save for half, choose energy type, inflicts 1d6 per caster level. Spell level = Number of Damage Dice/2 (rounded up)
-Control: 1st-Half Movement, 2nd-Held (Not Helples), 3rd-Helpless, 4th-Confusion, 5th-Wall, 6th-Anti-Magic, 7th-Teleport, 8th-Polymorph, 9th-Time Stop
-Charm: 1st-Charm Person, 2nd-Sleep, 3rd-Suggestion, 4th-Charm Monster, 5th-Dominate Person, 6th-Geas, 7th-Banish, 8th-Dominate Monster, 9th-Power Work:Kill
-Summon: Same round action, summons 2 CR per spell level, creature acts on caster initiative.

Cleric Categories:
-Heal: Heal 2d8+Caster Level per Spell Level, 3rd-Restoration, 6th-Max HP, 7th-Resurrection. +2 Spell Level for Mass (all allies).
-Buff: +2 Attack/Damage/AC/Saves/Skills per Spell Level, +2 Spell level for Mass (all allies).
-Holy: Automatic hit, no save, Holy damage, inflicts 1d8 per caster level.  Only affects Undead/Outsiders. Spell level = Number of Damage Dice/2 (rounded up).
-Create: Summon 50 GP worth of non-magic, non-living items per spell level. 

---

This is a BARE BONES, basic spell system for casters.  This is supposed to work as a skeleton for whatever type of caster a player wants.  Of course, new schools can be created per DM and player.

The above is supposed to allow a player to customize their casting style in whatever manner they want WITHOUT having to create new spells/schools for specific niches.

Want a blast happy Evoker? 
-Specialize in Damage, remove Charm, use Fire type for your Damage spells, give energy types to your Control spells, use elementals for your Summon spells.

Want a dark, creepy Necromancer?
-Specialize in Summon, remove Charm, use Negative type for your Damage spells, select Undead for your Summon spells, give necromantic flavor to your control (Wall of Bones, etc...)

Want a standard, heal-bot cleric?
-Specialize in Heal and remove Holy.

Want a Paladin style cleric?
-Specialize in Buff or Holy and remove Create.

---

Of course, some of this seems overpowered (Buff: +2 to everything per spell level?? ZOMG!), but I'll have to playtest it to see what works and what doesn't.

In particular, I'm curious as to how this will work in Play by Post...which tends to seriously lag under standard 3.x ED rules.  I'm also SERIOUSLY interested in "Players Roll All Dice", which will require some playtesting as well.

Thanks again for putting this out there!


----------



## jc_madden

First, let me say congratulations to GreyWulf.  Microlite20 is superb!  Secondly, I've added a few new rules to the Macropedia; an Alternate Skill System, Fatiguing Damage, an option under Multiclassing, and Using Ranged Weapons During a Melee.


----------



## greywulf

Nice work, jc, and thanks for the praise. It's currency round these parts 

I look forward to seeing more contributions!


----------



## jc_madden

Good, because I have been a busy boy.    ...and thank you too!

No Multiple Attacks, Base Attack Bonus by class and Base Attack Bonus to Armor Class and Armor as Damage Reduction.


----------



## Nomad4life

I am greatly impressed with M20 so far, and I love the game design philosophy behind it:  Ditch all the crap.

In theory, Microlite20 may be my favorite incarnation of D&D yet- it's got that old school vibe without all the old school wonkery.  I won't know for certain until I actually play it, though.

Off and on, I've been working on a parody module called "Return to the Throne of the Pit of the Tomb of the Temple of the Lair of the Castle of Nostalgic Death."  It's basically a nonsensical dungeon romp with intentionally baffling layout, encounters, puzzles, and room descriptions.  The goal is to kill Mary Sue and throw The Evil Mcguffin into the Bottomless Plot Hole.

I was going to stat it up in 1E, but now I might just go ahead and do it in M20, if that's okay.

EDIT:  If I stat it up in M20, I'll be re-introducing alignment into the game: Players can be Lawful Stupid, Stupid Evil, or True Stupid.


----------



## greywulf

Nomad4life said:
			
		

> "Return to the Throne of the Pit of the Tomb of the Temple of the Lair of the Castle of Nostalgic Death."




Excellent!

I keep threatening to run an adventure called "Return to the Expedition" on my players, full of old jokes from D&D's past. The PC encounter a load of random monsters sat around a table playing cards. Yes, it's the Wandering Monster Table. You know the drill.

Problem is, they claim //every// adventure I run is like that


----------



## Satori

Nomad4life said:
			
		

> I am greatly impressed with M20 so far, and I love the game design philosophy behind it:  Ditch all the crap.
> 
> In theory, Microlite20 may be my favorite incarnation of D&D yet- it's got that old school vibe without all the old school wonkery.  I won't know for certain until I actually play it, though.
> 
> Off and on, I've been working on a parody module called "Return to the Throne of the Pit of the Tomb of the Temple of the Lair of the Castle of Nostalgic Death."  It's basically a nonsensical dungeon romp with intentionally baffling layout, encounters, puzzles, and room descriptions.  The goal is to kill Mary Sue and throw The Evil Mcguffin into the Bottomless Plot Hole.
> 
> I was going to stat it up in 1E, but now I might just go ahead and do it in M20, if that's okay.
> 
> EDIT:  If I stat it up in M20, I'll be re-introducing alignment into the game: Players can be Lawful Stupid, Stupid Evil, or True Stupid.




Holy crap, if you run that game PbP style, then I NEED to play in it 

Come on! I'll even play a Chaotic Good Drow Ranger that dual-wields curved 10' poles!


----------



## Grimstaff

Micro4E?


----------



## Darrell

Grimstaff said:
			
		

> Micro4E?




     

On the whole, though, I really think m20 has gone past the whole 3e/4e 'edition war' thing.

It's changed enough from core 3e that it's virtually a new game in itself, while keeping the good stuff from 3e/d20.

For what it's worth, since I've pretty much decided _not_ to go the 4e route, I've got half a mind to sell off my 3e/3.5e stuff and adopt my 'Charisma-included' version of *microlite20* (possibly with Satori's 'mini-magic system') as my full-time game system.  

If I want, I can even print up a 'master copy' and have it hard-bound at Staples for about fifty bucks, which is a heckuva lot less than buying the core 4e books would cost me.

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## Darrell

I've been trying to get onto the microlite20 wiki to have another look at jcmadden's recent stuff, but keep getting a 'can't find the website' error message.  Is the site down at the moment, or is my computer just messing with me (again)?

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## kensanata

Hosting problems, again.


----------



## Dungeon Miser

*M20 Newbie Questions*

Hi all, thanks a lot for M20 and all this great discussion. I'm trying to figure out the best ways to run some Dungeon Crawl Classics modules as M20, but I have a few nagging questions.

How do things work out when converting 3.5 modules like the DCCs? Do the CRs for encounters tend to work out, assuming a party of 4 PCs? Do the high Saving Throws (eg. a potential Fortitude save bonus of 7 for a 1st level fighter) give the PCs too much of an edge in anyone's experience, especially regarding mundane stuff like Disease? Thanks for any help!


----------



## greywulf

Dungeon Miser said:
			
		

> Hi all, thanks a lot for M20 and all this great discussion. I'm trying to figure out the best ways to run some Dungeon Crawl Classics modules as M20, but I have a few nagging questions.




Hi! M20 works //very// well for DCCs. I've run through a fair few without change. Onto the questions......



			
				Dungeon Miser said:
			
		

> How do things work out when converting 3.5 modules like the DCCs? Do the CRs for encounters tend to work out, assuming a party of 4 PCs?




Just run them as-is and keep a count of the ELs. When it's time to level-up, let the players know and move on. I've not had to change the CR/ELs at all; they work just fine though YMMV. M20 characters seem to advance more quickly than their D&D counterparts, especially at lower levels, but that's mainly because the whole game experience plays more quickly. It's amazing just how much dungeon a party can clear when using a lite system.

That said, if the players are finding things too tough or too easy, just adjust ("just adjust".... ha!) on the fly.



			
				Dungeon Miser said:
			
		

> Do the high Saving Throws (eg. a potential Fortitude save bonus of 7 for a 1st level fighter) give the PCs too much of an edge in anyone's experience, especially regarding mundane stuff like Disease? Thanks for any help!




It's not a problem at all, especially at lower levels. A STR 18 Fighter-1 would have a Phys+STR of +7 which they could use to shuck off disease and the like, just as they would a Fort save. the closest comparison would be a CON 18 Fighter-1. Without Feats he'd be at +6, though it's more likely the D&D Fighter would have CON 16 or so, and a +5 Fort save. 

What that means is that the M20 Fighter is probably 10% hardier against disease than their D&D counterparts; likewise, the Rogue will be 10% better at Reflex saves and the Mage 10% better at Will saves. That's a fair price to pay for simplicity and the lack of save-boosting feats, methinks 

So in short, yes, they have an edge in their most likely save, but not all that much that it;s worth worrying about.

Hope that helps!


----------



## Dungeon Miser

Greywulf, thanks a lot! That helps clear up any little doubts. I'm going to use M20 just about as-written, but I'll add in a few 3.5 things like Armor Check penalties, modifiers like Cover and Concealment, and all those great conditions that pop up so much in DCCs (like Nauseated, Confused, etc.) as-written. I don't mind adding a touch more math to such a basic system.

Good to hear DCCs work nicely with M20. They're a pretty perfect match. Then maybe I can re-run all my old Top Secret modules as M20 Modern adventures....the mind boggles!


----------



## Nomad4life

D20 Microlite became our new "official" default D&D game over the holidays.  At first everyone seemed to think of the game as a "cute" novelty item worth playing once or twice to re-live 1E nostalgia.  However, once things got rolling, we couldn't make ourselves stop!  We made gagillians of characters just for the heck of it, and played through every adventure available for download from the M20 site.  We also ran a few published 3.X adventures with little trouble.  Two of the players said that they did miss some of the tactical options available to them in other versions of D&D, but the rest of us thought that the game ran much better and faster without them.  

One of my favorite things about M20 was one of my favorite things about 1E- making houserules to fill in the gaps.  Here are a few of our rulings that we actually kept for more than one session:

-Any character can equip any weapon or armor.  However, non-fighters cannot use their class abilities while wearing armor incompatible with their class.  In some situations, this is worth it.  In others, it isn't.  

-Rogues can make "reflex" saves to negate all damage, rather than half.  (This makes the class a little more attractive.)

-Attacking an adjacent foe with a ranged weapon incurs a -4 penalty.

-There are no DR, SR, or "can only be struck by X" defenses.  These slow the game down, and are already abstractly represented by hit points anyway.

-To keep things simple, monsters can have ONE special ability (a troll regenerates, a dragon has a breath attack, a medusa has stonegaze, etc…)  Having a special ability adds 1 to the creature's HD for the purposes of determining experience points or treasure.

-Only player characters get extra bonus attacks for high attack scores.  Monsters & NPCs make one attack per round, to speed things up.


There were many others, but they got discarded between (or during) games.  Anyway, thanks for sharing Microlite and setting up a homepage.  D&D would still be a fond dusty memory for us if you hadn't!


----------



## Darrell

Nomad4life said:
			
		

> D20 Microlite became our new "official" default D&D game over the holidays.




It's been mine for a while now.    Welcome t' the club.    



			
				Nomad4life said:
			
		

> At first everyone seemed to think of the game as a "cute" novelty item worth playing once or twice to re-live 1E nostalgia.  However, once things got rolling, we couldn't make ourselves stop!  ...[SNIP]... but the rest of us thought that the game ran much better and faster without them.




My experience, as well.  We find m20's speed and free-form style suit us much better than rules-heavy games.

[SNIP]



			
				Nomad4life said:
			
		

> -Any character can equip any weapon or armor.  However, non-fighters cannot use their class abilities while wearing armor incompatible with their class.  In some situations, this is worth it.  In others, it isn't.




I can see that.  I rather like it.  

[SNIP]



			
				Nomad4life said:
			
		

> -There are no DR, SR, or "can only be struck by X" defenses.  These slow the game down, and are already abstractly represented by hit points anyway.




I can see this to an extent, but I can also see a use for spell resistant critters, and things like werewolves only being hurt by silver weapons are kind of ultra-traditional.  I think it'd be better to drop such things to a bare minimum, but keep 'em around for special occasions.



			
				Nomad4life said:
			
		

> -To keep things simple, monsters can have ONE special ability (a troll regenerates, a dragon has a breath attack, a medusa has stonegaze, etc…)  Having a special ability adds 1 to the creature's HD for the purposes of determining experience points or treasure.




I like this, too, but have some reservations.  Maybe some monsters should have an additional power or two; say, breath weapon and dragonfear for dragons, or something like that.

For myself, I'm thinking about ritual magic lately.  Instead of having magic item creation and high-level magic (raising the dead, communing with a deity, etc.) as 'spells,' make them ritual magic.

In order to accomplish the effect, you'd need several things:

- must gain access to the correct ritual formula (from a church or a high-level wizard)
- must purchase or obtain any necessary items or assistance (possibly including a certain number of other spellcasters, at the DM's option)
- must complete a number of successful ability checks in order to be successful in the rite (the number being determined by the DM)

For example:  Enchanting a sword to a +1 bonus might require the enchantment ritual (obtained from a fellow mage), a masterwork sword, the assistance of at least one other mage, and two successful Knowledge + MIND checks.

What do you all think?

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## greywulf

I'm loving all of this. It's always great to hear how folks are using (and abusing  ) M20. Grand stuff.

When I get the chance I'll add your house rules to the Macropedia. Right now I'm in the middle of creating Chariots & Champions, a fantasy Car Wars mini-game for Save Or Die, my gamerzine. Knee deep in Air Sharks and Drow Vampires, sorry 

I'll be back and updating the Macropedia tomorrow. I hope!


----------



## Gilladian

Over the long weekend I ran a really fun M20 PIXIE adventure.  My players were inexperienced or unfamiliar roleplayers, mostly. They were 3rd level - to simulate being pixies I gave each character a special ability (one could fly, one could turn invisible, one could prestidigitate, etc...). I had 5 players. We played for about 3 hours, and a grand time was had by all.

They escorted a magical kitten from the pixie tree to the fairy princess's wedding - on the way they met a giant eagle, a bark-bark in the village, giant rats in the garbage dump, a troll guarding the underside of the bridge, and a poison centipede on the riverbank. Eventually they made it to the fairy castle where they had to prove their wedding present was the best. Doing pixie voices for three hours nearly drove us all insane!


----------



## greywulf

Gilladian said:
			
		

> Over the long weekend I ran a really fun M20 PIXIE adventure.  My players were inexperienced or unfamiliar roleplayers, mostly. They were 3rd level - to simulate being pixies I gave each character a special ability (one could fly, one could turn invisible, one could prestidigitate, etc...). I had 5 players. We played for about 3 hours, and a grand time was had by all.




Y'know, I'd love to see character stats for those......... 

Excellent stuff. And I've still not updated the Macropedia, I know. Blame Daz Studio. It's his fault.


----------



## Gilladian

Well, they weren't anything special. I just created base human PCs, dubbed them pixies by default and gave them each a special ability. I made sure that each character had a total of +4 stat modifiers (3 of them were +4 with no  negs, 3 had +5 but  one -1 modifier). 
There was a fighter with flight (3 squares at a time, for up to 3 rds consecutively).
A barbarian - could rage for one combat each day, giving a -2 to AC but +2 to hit and damage. He also had a secret stash of  honeycomb, which acts like alcohol on pixies. And ROPE!
A rogue - he could turn invisible twice a day until he attacked or fell asleep. He also had sleep darts that did no damage.
Another rogue - he had a magic satchel that was filled with tiny useful things that became real when pulled out - effectively a robe of useful items.
A cleric and a sorcerer were the final two characters. The sorc. had the ability to cast unlimited cantrips of the prestidigitation/audible glamer type. The cleric was able to ask two yes/no questions each day and get truthful answers.

No one ran the sorcerer as I had one fewer players than I expected.

They basically had to 1) choose which kitten to escort on a 3 day  journey - the smart one, the pretty  one, the shy one or the bold  one. They chose the "smart one" who turned out to be quite booklearned but not very wise.
2) travel through the forest where they were attacked by the giant eagle, who, interestingly, wore a harness.
3) circle around the human village (they chose to do this at dawn) and avoid the "bark-bark" sleeping by the back gate of one house. The kitten, in an effort to "feel his whiskers" awoke the bark-bark and they had to pepper it with sleep darts to avoid a major fight.
4) cross over the bridge at the far side of the village. But they were attacked by giant rats from the village garbage dump first (they were traveling a lot faster than I had expected! this game runs VERY smoothly even with newbies).

The bridge turned out to have a troll living under it. Trolls like pixies. For  lunch, dinner and breakfast, too. Flying under a bridge with a troll beneath it will get you nabbed! The barbarian dangled on his rope and managed to grab the trapped pixie before his wings were plucked off - then the rogue shot the troll with sleep darts (very very useful!).

5) a centipede attack came out of the river when they least expected it (this was another  bonus encounter to slow the game down).

6) they met a frog in the bog who didn't like them at all and tried to swallow one pixie-rogue. They drove it off with a spell.

7) they attended the Fairie wedding and presented their kitten-gift to the Fairie princess. The evil Frog returned, disrupting the wedding and forcing them to kill it. She turned out to be a frog-pixie witch in disguise, trying to ruin the pixie gift to the fairies for revenge on the pixie queen, whom she hated. (It was complicated; I don't think they quite figured it out). 

They defeated the frog, got the wish they wanted, left the irritatingly smart kitten behind, and went home to get drunk on honey...


----------



## kensanata

Darrell said:
			
		

> For example:  Enchanting a sword to a +1 bonus might require the enchantment ritual (obtained from a fellow mage), a masterwork sword, the assistance of at least one other mage, and two successful Knowledge + MIND checks.
> 
> What do you all think?




Exactly the kind of thing I love. Simplify spells and turn the rest into DM controlled rituals. Find the right formula, the right ingredients, the right number of partners and followers, do some checks to allow for crazy rolls that change the result and do it.


----------



## Greyharp

Grimstaff, I was playing around with your Expert Rules and turning them into a pocketmod when I noticed that you had listed under 7th level Illusionist spells:

"Prismatic Spray: 60’ Cone-shaped burst of rays for variety of effects:"

....but you didn't list the effects. Is this something you have in your notes? I see the original is based on the effects of the 1eAD&D spell Prismatic Sphere and I'm guessing you would've used them or did you have an abbreviated version in mind?


----------



## lumin

I just stumbled upon Microlite20 a couple days ago and I have to say that I am really impressed.  Excellent Work!  I just don't have time anymore to play real D&D and I think this is a really great way to get my wife and kids into it as well.

I haven't read this entire thread, but I've looked all over for some additional rules on Armor Check Penalties.  I'm a really big fan of the swashbuckler, duelist types and am not sure how to implement it correctly as a 'house rule'.  As the rules stand, it doesn't make any sense for a rogue to pick regular leather armor over studded leather armor, and there is also no good reason to not have a shield.

If I put in rules out of the d20 SRD, where would this penalty apply to?  I at first thought that it should give a penalty to Subterfuge, but that won't include jumping (Phys + DEX).  Then I thought it would be better to apply it to the DEX attribute, but then that would exclude swimming (Phys + STR).

So what are your thoughts on this, or is there a 'house rule' somewhere that somebody has put this in?


----------



## Darrell

lumin said:
			
		

> So what are your thoughts on this, or is there a 'house rule' somewhere that somebody has put this in?




The primary 'house rule' for m20 is simple common sense.  As far as an armor check penalty, I'd say that whenever a rogue decides to try wearing 'unsuitable' armor, any time he attempts _any action_ that would be affected, regardless of the type of check called for, he would suffer a penalty.

With regard to a reason not to wear heavier armour or carry a shield, with m20 the reasons are usually role-oriented, not rules-oriented.  You wear leather armor (or even no armor) and carry a rapier because you want to play D'artagnan or Robin Hood instead of Conan or Sir Lancelot.

Hope that helps.    

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## lumin

Darrell said:
			
		

> With regard to a reason not to wear heavier armour or carry a shield, with m20 the reasons are usually role-oriented, not rules-oriented.  You wear leather armor (or even no armor) and carry a rapier because you want to play D'artagnan or Robin Hood instead of Conan or Sir Lancelot.




I agree with you, in part, that M20 does help push role-playing a lot more, but there should still be some benefit for not wearing heavy armor since it is still a 'game' after all.

I've been thinking, and I have come to the conclusion that it works better to use common sense instead of a rigid rule-system.  

For example, the skill, "Climb" could be a Phys + STR (when using a rope) and Phys + DEX (when scaling a jagged cliff face).  However, both of these would be harder to do when wearing heavy armor (Armor Check Penalty).

I really don't understand why D&D has to be so rigid with its rules.  It would be a dream come true if D&D 4E came out with just one 30 page PHB with M20 rules, spells and monsters and used the rest of their time/money on role-playing techniques.

Actually I DO know why WoTC has so many books/rules, because more information = more books, and more books means more $$$ for them.  I don't think all the rules they have come out with are to make the game 'better' at all.


----------



## Darrell

D&D is 'rules-heavy' because the role-playing aspect of WotC is driven by hardcover book sales (softcover supplements apparently didn't sell as well) and miniatures.  Releases of hardcover books are driven by new rules and rule implementations (often called "crunch"); and miniatures-heavy games are, almost by definition, rules-heavy.

I (and my players, and apparently many of us who have taken to greywulf's little system) prefer a 'fast and loose' game.  



			
				lumin said:
			
		

> I've been thinking, and I have come to the conclusion that it works better to use common sense instead of a rigid rule-system.




For me, the single most useful tool in 3.x D&D was a simple idea from...somewhere...in the DMG, often referred to as the "DM's friend."  Basically, if the situation favours the player, he gets a +2 bonus to the roll; if the situation does not favour the player, he takes a -2 penalty on the roll.  This single 'rule' gets more play in my games than any other, and m20 is perfect for it, gameplay-wise.

Simple.  Direct.  It just seems to work well that way.    

Regards,
Darrell


----------



## greywulf

lumin said:
			
		

> I haven't read this entire thread, but I've looked all over for some additional rules on Armor Check Penalties.  I'm a really big fan of the swashbuckler, duelist types and am not sure how to implement it correctly as a 'house rule'.  As the rules stand, it doesn't make any sense for a rogue to pick regular leather armor over studded leather armor, and there is also no good reason to not have a shield.




lumin, welcome to the party  It's always a pleasure to meet a new micro-recruit.

As regards ACP, in our games we just ignore them under the principle of "Penalties Aren't Fun.", and the game certainly hasn't lost anything in their disappearance. That said, if a Fighter in Full Plate wants to climb a rope (good example, that), I'm going to bang a -2 (or more) on his ass. Most likely, I'd just say "you can't, not in that armour!" and leave it at that. Let him figure out another solution, probably involving pulleys and whatnot. Role-playing, baby 

Of course, M20 is all about options, so if you want a house rule, I suggest imposing the ACP from the SRD equipment list on any skill check involving STR (maybe DEX, your call). That'll do it.

On the "why not just pick the best possible armour/shield/weapon combo?" question, there's one simple answer: character concept! That Rogue in plain blue leather armour with gold trimmings sounds a much cooler dude than the one in the corner wearing boring brown studded leather, don't you think? 

Save yer optimisation theory for D&D. In Microlite20, it's the game, not the numbers.

That's what I think, anyhow. And what do I know?


----------



## Darrell

That's kind of what I was trying to say, too, 'wulf.  I'm just not as articulate.    

At the request of several of my players, I've been giving thoughts toward re-tooling magic; and have come up with a few differences for our games.

Basically, there are three different kinds of magic: arcane, divine, and ritual.

*Arcane Magic* is based in arcane knowledge and archaic formulae gleaned from an assortment of tomes and grimoires and passed down from master to apprentice.

Spellbooks are making a comeback (as in, "you can't cast a spell if it's not in your..."); and this form will use the 'hp cost' system from the basic m20 rules.

*Divine Magic* is channelled energy given by the gods to their servants (clerics).

This will be based on satori's mini-magic system, and clerics will be able to focus said energy 2 + MIND bonus + cleric level times per day.

*Ritual Magic* is found both in arcane and divine natures, and deals with higher magical subjects...creating items of magical power and summoning extraplanar entities (arcane) or communing with deities and raising the dead (divine), things like that.

Ritual magic is based in locating and assembling all the items and focuses necessary for a rite (which can lead to adventures in and of itself) and making necessary checks for the successful completion of the rite.

I'll write it up in more detail when I finalize a bit more about what we're doing.

What do you guys think so far?

Regards,
Darrell

PS-- The reason I'm doing new work on m20 is that my group, having discussed it at some length, has decided that we are going to tweak Microlite20 a bit more, and adopt it as our permanent FRPG system, rather than buying in to D&D 4e.


----------



## Nomad4life

Just started a thread on RPGnet, trying to collect goofy random encounter ideas for the M20 version of _Return to the Throne of the Pit of the Tomb of the Temple of the Lair of the Castle of Nostalgic Death_:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?p=8420319&posted=1#post8420319


----------



## dunbruha

Just wanted to chime in and say how much I like this system.  I'm definitely giving it a try (if I can convince my group, that is...)

I do have one question, concerning the Magic attack bonus (= MIND bonus + Level).  What is this used for?


----------



## Mondbuchstaben

dunbruha said:
			
		

> Just wanted to chime in and say how much I like this system.  I'm definitely giving it a try (if I can convince my group, that is...)
> 
> I do have one question, concerning the Magic attack bonus (= MIND bonus + Level).  What is this used for?



From the rules:
"A Cleric can Turn Undead with a successful Magic Attack. DC is the current Hit Points of the Undead. If the DC is exceeded by 10 it is destroyed. This can be used (2 + Level + MIND Bonus) times per day."

And attack spells:
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3159777&postcount=111


----------



## dunbruha

Mondbuchstaben said:
			
		

> From the rules:
> "A Cleric can Turn Undead with a successful Magic Attack. DC is the current Hit Points of the Undead. If the DC is exceeded by 10 it is destroyed. This can be used (2 + Level + MIND Bonus) times per day."
> 
> And attack spells:
> http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3159777&postcount=111




OK, thanks, I forgot about the turn undead.

But this part I don't follow (from the link above):




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by MeepoDM
> Also, how exactly does the Magic attack bonus = MIND bonus + Level rule work? I understand the concept, but in regular D&D this is usually automatic with the monster having the spell cast on him rolling a Saving Throw. Is this rule used for any form of attack spell?
> 
> 
> We use it for most spells that could affect another creature. d20+Magical Attack bonus gives the DC for the poor schmuck to beat. The only exception is range attacks (Rays, etc) or touch spells, which use missile or melee attack bonus, of course.




But there is already a provision for a spell's DC:  "The Difficulty Class (DC) for all spells is 10 + Caster Level + Caster's MIND bonus".  So if the poor schmuck needs to "save" (MIND bonus + level), then he uses that DC.  

So in what situations is an "Attack Bonus" needed?  For "Most spells that could affect another creature"?  Like Magic Missle?  Sleep?  MM shouldn't require any "attack roll".  And Sleep should (if anything) require a "save".  Could you please give an example of a spell that uses the Attack Bonus?  Thanks.


----------



## dunbruha

bump


----------



## greywulf

Sorry for the delay in replying, dunbruha 

In our games we've used the Magical Attack bonus for a number of things, including setting the save DC for spells in place of the usual Spell-level based Save DC; that way, the difficulty to resist the spell is based on the level of the character rather than the level of the spell. In other words, resisting the _Sleep_ spell cast by a 20th level Mage is harder than resisting against the same spell cast by a 1st level apprentice. Makes sense to us, anyhow. Sometimes we do it, sometimes we don't. Depends on the style of game, I guess.

We also enjoy trying out other magic systems (several are listed on the Macropedia), and use the Magical Attack bonus then in a similar manner to any other attack bonus.

Hope that helps!

Folks, in light of the Long Threads Moratorium I reckon it's time to retire this long and venerable thread. Heck, it's around 200 times longer than the entire Microlite 20 Core Rules! Many thanks to you, one and all.

If you want, start another Microlite20 thread, and I'll hop on board.


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## greywulf

This thread is dead. This thread is no more. This thread has passed the mortal coil and joined the great Monty Python sketch in the sky.

Thanks to dunbruha, we've got a shiny new reborn Microlite20 thread, right here. 

See you there!


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