# Is the Executioner underpowered, not a striker or both? (or am I missing something?)



## Ninja-to (Jun 9, 2011)

So I've rolled my supposed Striker and compared it to the other strikers, and I've come to the conclusion: Executioners suck (as Strikers).

Let's be honest, their damage is hurting. Sure they have nice little tricks like shifting back and forth at will, silencing an enemy... the poison is cool but can only be used once per encounter x2.

Where is the damage? 1[w] damage with a dagger? Really? No sneak attack, curse or shroud etc. So they get a 1d10 per encounter, and 2 poisons / extended rest. The strongest power I see is the garrote, which is 2[w]. So... 2d4. Hm. And they need 2 hands to even pull that off.

What am I missing here? I hear people like this class. For the roleplay aspect? As a striker they seem mighty weak. I'm talking damage here. Where is it? If the class didn't say 'Striker' as a role I would be more obliged to think the shifting around and prone attacks etc would mean this class is some kind of controller or defender of some sort. But striker?

Someone point out whatever awesomeness I'm missing here.


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## Kelvor Ravenstar (Jun 9, 2011)

The thing you're missing is the Attack Finesse class feature.    







			
				D&DI Compendium said:
			
		

> "You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for your melee basic attacks. In addition, once per turn you can deal 1d8 extra damage with a weapon attack using a one-handed weapon, a garrote, a blowgun, or a shortbow. The extra damage increases to 2d8 at 11th level and 3d8 at 21st level."



This is the basic striker feature, which is pretty good. But the consensus I've seen online is that the Executioner isn't that good a striker, but with this feature at least it can perform as good as other strikers in terms of class abilities, but its way lower in powers than most strikers.
The intent, I believe, is that you should be doing basic attacks, except in the not too common situations where your at-will powers are better.


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## Ninja-to (Jun 9, 2011)

Kelvor Ravenstar said:


> The thing you're missing is the Attack Finesse class feature.
> This is the basic striker feature, which is pretty good. But the consensus I've seen online is that the Executioner isn't that good a striker, but with this feature at least it can perform as good as other strikers in terms of class abilities, but its way lower in powers than most strikers.
> The intent, I believe, is that you should be doing basic attacks, except in the not too common situations where your at-will powers are better.




I knew there was something! Thanks for that. I guess having another party member that grants a lot of basic attacks is where they will shine.


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## Riastlin (Jun 9, 2011)

Ninja-to said:


> I knew there was something! Thanks for that. I guess having another party member that grants a lot of basic attacks is where they will shine.




Yeah, buddy up to the warlord and make sure his tankard is always full.


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## MrMyth (Jun 9, 2011)

Also, I wouldn't underestimate Death Attack once you get access to it. While not something you can reliably use, you can certainly take actions with it in mind, and it will crop up more often than you think. 

I see the Executioner as a character who unloads a devestating nova strike at the start of combat, and then spends the rest of the fight hunting bloodied enemies or looking for specific opportunities to put his at-wills to good use.


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## DracoSuave (Jun 9, 2011)

Save the encounter power for either a critical or a finishing maneuver.  There's no reason to blast it early.


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## keterys (Jun 9, 2011)

I played a 4th level one for a test, and it went quite well. That said, I was able to use the garotte attack every turn (pre-stealth before combat, drow for 2 more rounds of it) and WotC gave it a few extra poisons.

Loved death attack, myself


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## DracoSuave (Jun 9, 2011)

I rather like the garrote attack as well.  The at-will that uses it deals 2d4+stuff damage and automatically does 2d4+stuff damage on subsequent rounds.  Automatic damage on an at-will of that magnitude is nothing to sneeze at.


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## UngeheuerLich (Jun 9, 2011)

I also used an executioner as an npc... effectively 45 damage on level 3... and before anyone could act, the fighter dropped to 0 hp...

So if you do this at the beginning of the combat, you already have done all the striker damage you need... as you basically take one monster out of the fight....


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## Neverfate (Jun 9, 2011)

I pretty much hate the Executioner as a Striker. It fails at it's roll, unless you charge optimize, but even then is outdone by all it's Essentials charging brethren. 

It's "striker mechanic" is that it adds 1d8 damage to its weapon attacks and it can base MBAs on Dex.

A Thief can use Dex for MBAs and starts off with a +2 damage to weapon attacks (which eventually increases). It then adds 2d6 extra damage (increased to d8s via feat). And can be charge optimized just as well.

Also, the Thief is more accurate as it has a weapon talent that adds +1 to hit. The backstab Encounter power, while not adding 3d10 initially, improves the chances of hitting. I mention all of this, because hitting is almost always more important. Also, the Thief gains more uses as opposed to higher damage (they gain some extra d6s). But really that's more +3s to hit. In general these are just more effective than a hard to gauge Death Attack (which should have had a cap 5 HP or so higher or at least trigger while adjacent so your allies could gain a benefit). 

The poisons are rather weak as well, but I've ranted enough about how much this class disappoints me mechanically (ok... a little bit more).

Honestly, they should just have gotten the "add second ability score to damage" benefit to at least balance it with other classes. Its poisons don't exert the control of other striker/controllers or add enough DPR to stay competitive. 

And the classes flavor is easily accomplished by having a Thief multi-classing into the Assassin to pick up the Ki Focus. I'd rather play the even WORSE damaging Original Assassin because that at least has fun flavor.


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## erleni (Jun 9, 2011)

Neverfate said:


> I pretty much hate the Executioner as a Striker. It fails at it's roll, unless you charge optimize, but even then is outdone by all it's Essentials charging brethren.
> 
> It's "striker mechanic" is that it adds 1d8 damage to its weapon attacks and it can base MBAs on Dex.
> 
> ...




To be honest the Ossassin can be tweaked to outdamage the Executioner. The main difference will be that it will have to spread the damage over several targets. Personally I don't really like the executioner's poisons. If they had dealt ongoing poison damage then it would have been different as the Venomed Hand PP would have given them more nova potential.


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## keterys (Jun 9, 2011)

Eh, all the charging nonsense is a level of optimization that doesn't seem to occur much in real play. I wouldn't worry too much about whether an executioner can do vanguard, horned helm, kulkor attacks.

And CharOp doesn't really rate Death Attack as worth anything at all, when it's actually very powerful if you have the right party.

It's certainly not a strong striker, and it should be improved, but at heroic it's not noticeably worse. It even can be better in the right group. For the rest... if you assume a thief who is just, say, throwing a dagger with CA for its attack, then it'll compare a whole lot more favorably.

Not enough to sweat or rant over.


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## UngeheuerLich (Jun 9, 2011)

Also applying damage when it is needed and spike damage is way underrated...

I really admit, that the thief´s backstab is a great feature, and is actually quite a good damage spike, but the assassin has following goodies:

he could use a bigger weapon.
he does not rely on CA (it allows a little more freedom in which target you can chose to attack)
he can switch weapons even when dazed
your encounter power is incredibly powerful, it can prevent a lot of damage to your party by just eliminating an important target. Especially lurkers are good targets, as you need to bring them down in a single round and they have low hp...


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## Mengu (Jun 9, 2011)

UngeheuerLich said:


> I really admit, that the thief´s backstab is a great feature, and is actually quite a good damage spike, but the assassin has following goodies:
> 
> he could use a bigger weapon.
> he does not rely on CA (it allows a little more freedom in which target you can chose to attack)
> ...




I like Executioners, but I'm not sure if the above is all that true.

Thief can use a rapier just fine, and light blades have the best support out there. Bigger weapons aren't really an advantage.

For a thief CA is trivial with the right pick of movement tricks. Rogues also have a lot of tools. After level 5 or so, I've never really seen our rogue fail to get combat advantage.

Switching weapons for free is cool, but fast hands, quickdraw, certain items, or a combination can accomplish the same easy enough if you need it. For the Executioner it's more of a necessity than anything else, hence it's given for free.

The executioner encounter power is not incredibly powerful, it's on par with the average encounter power, with only slightly better damage at the sacrifice of multiple encounter powers. If you're looking for incredibly powerful, you look at minor action and immediate action attacks.

I think the mop up feature and poisons are the best tools Executioners have.


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## Droogie128 (Jun 9, 2011)

The executioner is slightly underpowered for a striker, but not nearly as bad as its predecessor was. Assassin's Strike needs better scaling, and making something like Quick Lunge a minor action would bring it up to par pretty easily. 

Really, all it needs is minor tweaking.


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## Wednesday Boy (Jun 9, 2011)

MrMyth said:


> I see the Executioner as a character who unloads a devestating nova strike at the start of combat, and then spends the rest of the fight hunting bloodied enemies or looking for specific opportunities to put his at-wills to good use.




That would gel nicely with a Death Warpriest using Eye of the Vulture (lets you know which targets have hit points less than your healing surge value).



DracoSuave said:


> Save the encounter power for either a critical or a finishing maneuver.




Would using Assassin's Strike on a crit maximize the Assassin's Strike damage or would it be rolled?


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## keterys (Jun 9, 2011)

It'd max it out, and is a pretty good use of that.


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## mneme (Jun 9, 2011)

Hmm.  Executioner vs Theif:

Thief:
   Higher accuracy (backstab, weapon talent)
   Bigger striker damage (2d6 is 7 vs 4.5 for 1d8, 5d6 is 17.5 vs 13.5 for 3d8)
   Easier to boost damage with feats -- boost sneak attack, weapon, plus light blade feats.

Executioner:
    Bigger weapon damage (rapier vs short sword, or with a feat, bastard sword or waraxe [hmm.  the executioner is really good at knocking enemies prone...] vs rapier) -- so really down 1.5 damage per strike at 1st level, not 2.5, and 2 damage when maxed out, not 4).
    Bigger spike damage (assassin strike + poison can get serious, and buff poison can boost an assassin's at will damage past that of the thief for an encounter)
    Death attack (moar spike damagen, and random up to +20 (or +30) boosts to damage will add up)
    Flexibility -- assassin poisons (ie, dailies) have significant out of combat uses, and assassins can play single target controller very well as well as being able to do serious striker damage.
   Adaptaiblity -- striker damage always and almost unaffected by dazed and immobolized conditions.
    More (and more interesting) options (theives basically get mobility, damage, combat advantage; assassins get poison powers (and an auto-hit poison at will that lets them apply crazy control), prone at will, and a mobility option (and probably the exellent garotte strangle; don't see a good case for league of whispers given that red scales can do everything they can plus garotte, with the proviso that they have less range).
   Better outfits.

Overall, if you just want to do damage, you're obviously better off with a thief.  But I think the assassin is simply more interesting, and 1*striker + 1/2 controller beats 1.25 striker most of the time.


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## UngeheuerLich (Jun 9, 2011)

Mengu said:


> I like Executioners, but I'm not sure if the above is all that true.
> 
> Thief can use a rapier just fine, and light blades have the best support out there. Bigger weapons aren't really an advantage.
> 
> ...



I know what you are saying is true, but assassins strike is added on a hit, possibly a crit. And it is in addition to 2d8 damage on a longsword or rapier attack.

So you have: an encounter power, that you use together with an already heavy hitting at will for aboout 2d8+2d10+6 damage at level 3. Which means an average of 26 damage. Count in the 4 damage poison and we speak of 30 average damage...
add in death attack and you can one hit a 40hp monster... Maybe it is no bad idea to multiclass into rogue, so you have another 7 average damage, and chances that you kill a foe before it even acted is high. And your striker job is already done. If you don´t kill, just pop an action point and kill.

And after this combo, you automatically use your other damage increasing trait, whenever you can use it best... 1-10 more damage when needed the most should be very powerful, usually better than 1d6 damage from backstab... it is almost an enconterpower that is automatically and retroactively used, when it s most efficient.

I guess the only way to tell it was a monte carlo simulation, as the probability function is a bit too complex...
spike damage IS underrated...

As to the rapier thief: I thought the damage bonus would not work on this weapon... but actually, it is unfair compaing anyone with the thief, who deals the most damage if not dazed, slowed or prone...

edit: you always need to look at the whole package, and this package in the executioners case is very sound, and I believe, highly effective n actual play.


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## BobTheNob (Jun 9, 2011)

DracoSuave said:


> There's no reason to blast it early.



Thats what she said!


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## Mummolus (Jun 9, 2011)

Another nice thing about the executioner (Red Scales at least) is that where damage is concerned they're nearly as effective at range as they are in melee, which gives them nice versatility. I'm playing one in our Eberron group and the ability to switch from range to melee depending on the situation means I'm consistently able to have the maximum possible impact at any given moment, regardless of whether it's a wide-open field or a tight passageway we're fighting in.


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## Neonchameleon (Jun 10, 2011)

The executioner is weaker than the thief.  But if you go Essentials Only, damage isn't too far behind a slayer and the Executioner gains a lot of utility to make up for it.  At least as long as you can get a few garrottings off if you're going melee...  (Executioners need another d4 worth of damage so their one handed weapons can match the two handers - which is why rogues get the extra d6s on sneak attack).

To me the star weapon is the garrotte - if I'm not exploiting that I'd rather play a rogue or thief.  But it's very accurate if you can use it, does decent damage, it's control, and it's got great synergy with one of the poisons (dazing a grabbed target means they only get their standard to either attack or escape).  I just wish there was some way of preventing forced movement from breaking grabs...


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## Ninja-to (Jun 10, 2011)

Some interesting comments here. A lot to digest but I'm re-reading this Executioner as it seems a lot more interesting than I thought.

One thing I did notice though is that in the class description is says you get proficiency with light shields, and even tells you 'buy a light shield' as part of your starting equipment. Then on the next page it tells you to choose your bonus feat, between lights shields and two weapon defense. This looks like another error. (sigh)


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## DracoSuave (Jun 10, 2011)

Wednesday Boy said:


> Would using Assassin's Strike on a crit maximize the Assassin's Strike damage or would it be rolled?




It's additional damage that does not result from a crit, so it would be maximised like any other additional damage.


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## DracoSuave (Jun 10, 2011)

Neonchameleon said:


> I just wish there was some way of preventing forced movement from breaking grabs...




That's why you put your defender there, so if the forced mover tries to push you off, they'll take free punishment regardless.


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## Obryn (Jun 10, 2011)

I love the non-combat poison uses for the Executioner.  More than any other class, the Executioner encourages out-of-combat deviousness and creativity with their powers.  Their poisons are intensely powerful, but obviously require a game DM.

If your DM is more apt to screw you over, of course, and never let your out-of-combat poison preparations work, Executioners are a lot less viable.

-O


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## Aegeri (Jun 10, 2011)

Main problem with the executioner is scaling, like many essentials classes despite assassin's strike looking impressive dice wise it starts to fall behind at paragon/epic. It does work a lot better than the OAssassin, but I've used the analogy before but that's like saying a heavyweight boxer could take a 5 year old (so isn't very relevant). I did have an executioner in my Dark Sun game, but an Anakore killed him and he's now playing a Hexblade who doesn't have fantastic damage but definitely has some great control elements.

What I found while he was alive was that Death attack was most useful against enemies with insubstantial as a quality. It can amount in an instant effective 20+ damage bonus, really helping to get rid of those creatures without needing to hit them again. Assassin's strike + sneak attack (Rogue MC) was pretty effective as well, but could only be used once per encounter. Once he blew his "load" (so to speak) his every day DPR was actually not very good. In fact I kept a reasonable track of the assassin in that game vs. when he was a thief at the start. In general, the thief did far more overall damage over the encounter, while the assassin had a better spike.

At the same time, the assassin's damage spike wasn't significantly better than the thieves. On an attack + AP the thief due to how reliable their sheer "every day" DPR is got really close to the assassin easily. Not to mention the thief is so ridiculously accurate that he hit far more often as well. If a fight went over a long period, the thief easily beat the executioner in total damage hands, feet and pretty much every other limb wise easily. It's hard for me to think the executioner is really underpowered though, because it has some really great features and assassin's strike (if used well) can be very handy. Overall though, I think a more reliable striker like a thief works better. Plus the executioner in that game was practically feat taxed venom hand master if he wanted to do jack with poisons, because many of their enemies are undead.

Also to keterys: Both his thief and assassin were optimized to make use of charging. As the game is dark sun many of the items to optimize it weren't there, but surprising charge certainly was. My other game has a Barbarian who almost certainly WILL be optimizing for charging, so saying it doesn't happen in a real game is a little incorrect. I have a charge optimized Slayer it would seem in my IRL game starting soon as well! Charging is just too efficient for many players not to actually do.


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## Neverfate (Jun 10, 2011)

Obryn said:


> I love the non-combat poison uses for the Executioner.  More than any other class, the Executioner encourages out-of-combat deviousness and creativity with their powers.  Their poisons are intensely powerful, but obviously require a game DM.
> 
> If your DM is more apt to screw you over, of course, and never let your out-of-combat poison preparations work, Executioners are a lot less viable.
> 
> -O




Or LFR where I played my Executioner through heroic. There's no deviation in those adventures. I can't even poison my allies because you have to ask permission. Boo. Nature of that beast.

Still, I'd play a thief over an executioner any day (or a o-4e Rogue really. Much more rewarding control and can get that multiclass garrote feat).


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## DracoSuave (Jun 10, 2011)

How can a straight up DPR comparison work for a class that has the capacity to do automatic 2d4+1d8+stuff damage to a creature it's grabbed, given that there's no real way to calculate the ability of the creature to escape the grab?

I just don't see straight-up comparisons between the two classes to really be appropriate given that said comparisons tend to be a rogue in optimal conditions (the rogue has combat advantage) vs an executioner in suboptimal conditions (the assassin doesn't have someone garroted).

Also, garrotes won't work with sneak attack.


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## Neverfate (Jun 10, 2011)

DracoSuave said:


> How can a straight up DPR comparison work for a class that has the capacity to do automatic 2d4+1d8+stuff damage to a creature it's grabbed, given that there's no real way to calculate the ability of the creature to escape the grab?
> 
> I just don't see straight-up comparisons between the two classes to really be appropriate given that said comparisons tend to be a rogue in optimal conditions (the rogue has combat advantage) vs an executioner in suboptimal conditions (the assassin doesn't have someone garroted).
> 
> Also, garrotes won't work with sneak attack.




Except for the multiclass feat that allows for it. Unfortunately it does eat up the multiclass options. But with a few items and the power swaps the MC offers it can be devastating. It's actually the reason I stopped playing the Executioner. I couldn't outdo the rogue in my party that was out-strangling me...that sounded awful.


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## Aegeri (Jun 10, 2011)

DracoSuave said:


> How can a straight up DPR comparison work for a class that has the capacity to do automatic 2d4+1d8+stuff damage to a creature it's grabbed



He actually has to be able to do so and forced movement and teleportation make this considerably easy for some monsters. In any event given this comparison is from exactly the same game, under exactly the same DM (me), with exactly the same player AND the same PC being changed from thief/executioner it isn't hard for me to tell what did more damage.



> vs an executioner in suboptimal conditions (the assassin doesn't have someone garroted).
> 
> Also, garrotes won't work with sneak attack.



Using the garrotte actually isn't even that good, the executioner in my game was using surprising charge with a rapier. That was actually really effective, but again it isn't anything that the thief couldn't do anyway. The executioner was best when dumping as MUCH stuff into a single attack as possible. Good example of a real "dump everything" approach was:

1d8 (rapier) + 1d8 (rapier surprising charge) + 2d6 (Sneak Attack Rogue MC) + 2d10 (Assassins Strike) + 1d10 (magic item) + 1d6 (magic item) + mods + static bonus (magic item) + poison = 2d8+3d6+3d10+mods+items+poison damage. So that was a really solid nova strike and really did a lot of damage. After that his DPR was considerably unimpressive - but the initial spike damage made up for it. Even with all this, the thieves round to round DPR in any long lasting combat made it a clearly superior choice.

The other problem with the garrotte is remaining hidden from an enemy, which is sometimes absolutely impractical due to terrain, situation or enemies involved (for example, tremorsensing spiders or creatures with blindsight).


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## keterys (Jun 10, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> Also to keterys: Both his thief and assassin were optimized to make use of charging. As the game is dark sun many of the items to optimize it weren't there, but surprising charge certainly was. My other game has a Barbarian who almost certainly WILL be optimizing for charging, so saying it doesn't happen in a real game is a little incorrect. I have a charge optimized Slayer it would seem in my IRL game starting soon as well! Charging is just too efficient for many players not to actually do.




That's not the CharOp level of optimization - that's one decent feat - you really do need to have the vanguard, the horned helm, proning charges, preferably while surprise charging with a vs Reflex gouge and kulkor arms master for the free followup attack


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## Aegeri (Jun 10, 2011)

keterys said:


> That's not the CharOp level of optimization - that's one decent feat - you really do need to have the vanguard, the horned helm, proning charges, preferably while surprise charging with a vs Reflex gouge and kulkor arms master for the free followup attack



Yeah point taken there! The Barbarian in my Eberron game is optimizing for charging, but probably not *that* much


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## WalterKovacs (Jun 10, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> Yeah point taken there! The Barbarian in my Eberron game is optimizing for charging, but probably not *that* much




At least with Barbarians, the class itself tells you to optimize charging. "Here's an at-will that is works with charges while giving you bonus damage ... oh, and here's a free charge when you kill someone ... here's a rage that gives a free charge everytime you kill someone ... etc" A barbarian charging around doing tons of damage is basically exactly what you expect from a barbarian ... rogues (and assassins) less so. The strategy of the stealthy thief/ninja/assassin to run headlong into enemies seems a bit 'out of character' to say the least. Not that people shouldn't do it ... but it would be nice if that wasn't the easiest/best way to get the most damage out of those kinds of characters.


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## Neverfate (Jun 10, 2011)

WalterKovacs said:


> At least with Barbarians, the class itself tells you to optimize charging. "Here's an at-will that is works with charges while giving you bonus damage ... oh, and here's a free charge when you kill someone ... here's a rage that gives a free charge everytime you kill someone ... etc" A barbarian charging around doing tons of damage is basically exactly what you expect from a barbarian ... rogues (and assassins) less so. The strategy of the stealthy thief/ninja/assassin to run headlong into enemies seems a bit 'out of character' to say the least. Not that people shouldn't do it ... but it would be nice if that wasn't the easiest/best way to get the most damage out of those kinds of characters.




Well, that's using the assumption that someone is wanting to play a stealthy thief. My rogue, before essentials, was an artful dodger build. It's hard to be a stealthy daredevil doing back flips and wall runs and general parkour tricks (and my character loves to be seen/heard). All of my powers were based around movement and charging and tricks. When the Thief came out I immediately switched over because it was more in fitting with my character.

As far as Executioners. . . well my Executioner screamed that he was the best assassin in the world while making stealth checks (taking massive penalties) because there isn't many benefits to being hidden (CA, a few items that give bonus damage), but there's plenty of benefits for running up to people and stabbing them in the face (charging or not). Even the Design and Development article devs said they didn't see the Executioner as a ranged character (and seemed surprised that people wanted multiple poison uses for ranged weapons....apparently forgetting the fact that one guild IS RANGED BASED). That's just the nature of 4E, I guess.


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## Osgood (Jun 10, 2011)

My buddy is playing an executioner in one of our games, and he is pretty underwhelmed.  His damage output is consistently lower than the dagger-wielding rogue, and my defender (an avenging paladin with a fullblade).  This particular game is an Eberron game with a lot of intrigue and subterfuge, so I'm sure he will get a chance to shine in those areas, but so far it hasn't quite worked out that way.


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## Droogie128 (Jun 10, 2011)

Osgood said:


> This particular game is an Eberron game with a lot of intrigue and subterfuge, so I'm sure he will get a chance to shine in those areas, but so far it hasn't quite worked out that way.




Problem is, so will the rogue.


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## RangerWickett (Jun 10, 2011)

So how would you fix it?


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## Mengu (Jun 10, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> 1d8 (rapier) + 1d8 (rapier surprising charge) + 2d6 (Sneak Attack Rogue MC) + 2d10 (Assassins Strike) + 1d10 (magic item) + 1d6 (magic item) + mods + static bonus (magic item) + poison = 2d8+3d6+3d10+mods+items+poison damage. So that was a really solid nova strike and really did a lot of damage. After that his DPR was considerably unimpressive - but the initial spike damage made up for it. Even with all this, the thieves round to round DPR in any long lasting combat made it a clearly superior choice.




Sounds pretty much like the build I was going for, except I was adding Furious Assault d8, Venom Hand Assassin d8. Not sure where the 1d10 magic item is coming from (would like to know), but I did have vanguard 1d8. And uh, you forgot Attack Finesse d8. My level 12 build was ending up with:

Rapier 1d8
Attack Finesse 2d8
Surprising Charge 1d8 (CA)
Vanguard 1d8
Horned Helm 1d6
Furious Assault 1d8
Venom Hand 2d8
Assassin's Strike 5d10
Sneak Attack 3d6 (CA)
Dex +6
Enhancement +3
Item +4
Light blade expertise +2 (CA)
Giantkind Gloves +2
Poison (Greenblood oil) +10

8d8+4d6+5d10+27 (104.5) damage on a hit. Enough to take out artillery or lurkers, but slightly shy of reducing a skirmisher or soldier to less than 10 hit points unless you get a lucky damage roll, and definitely not enough for a brute. I counted poison up there, but if there are more than 3 encounters in the day, you obviously run out.

I was trying for the one shot one kill without an action point, and the build manages to do it at level 3-5ish, but then falls just shy from then on, with the gap increasing through paragon (haven't checked epic). With an action point or an item daily free attack, obviously you can finish anything off, but everybody and their aunt seems to be able to do that too.


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## Osgood (Jun 10, 2011)

Droogie128 said:


> Problem is, so will the rogue.




Very true.  There are six players in the group so there is a fair amount of overlap any way you look at it.


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## keterys (Jun 10, 2011)

Osgood said:


> My buddy is playing an executioner in one of our games, and he is pretty underwhelmed.  His damage output is consistently lower than the dagger-wielding rogue, and my defender (an avenging paladin with a fullblade).  This particular game is an Eberron game with a lot of intrigue and subterfuge, so I'm sure he will get a chance to shine in those areas, but so far it hasn't quite worked out that way.



Fairly low level?

Ie, 1d4+2d6+8 (17.5) damage for the rogue, 1d12+8 (14.5) for the paladin, 2d8 + 5 (14) damage for executioner, thereabouts? A lot of the original classes got to add two stats to damage, and they perform a lot better at low level - like the 2d6 + 10 goliath fighter at 1st level hangs out with the strikers quite well.

I do suspect that some better at-wills would bring the executioner a long ways... and not-sucky encounter... and, yeah, it's just hard to compare it to a thief, but it's still within the bounds of most games' balance point


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## UngeheuerLich (Jun 10, 2011)

And by all means, how is it fair to compare a goliath fighter with an extra feat with a vanilla assassin...

give it eladrin soldier feat and you now compare 2d8+7 with the paladin... (who is a dwarf with an axe?)
such comparisons, and a half point of damage does not make a striker bad...


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## keterys (Jun 10, 2011)

I was assuming a Str/Wis build paladin, since that's the easiest route to damage at that level. Fullblade (1d12) with Str & Wis both added to damage.

And, sure, the executioner could have a +1 or +2 feat bonus, or a 1d10 superior weapon. Or get a multiclass feat, then next level pick up surprising charge for a second d8 on charges. Or get the feat that ups garrote damage to d6s or... was doing a fairly simple comparison. I also didn't give the rogue backstabber, after all. The point was more that adding two stats (Ex: Dex + Str, Dex + Cha, Str + Wis, Str + Con, in the examples) is extremely good at low level.


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## UngeheuerLich (Jun 12, 2011)

yes, if you do optimze for dual stats, you are right... but damage alone is not what makes a stikr a striker... it is doing damage at the right time...


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## GreyLord (Jun 13, 2011)

Perhaps if we added one poison to the mix.  All the poisons listed say 1+, what if we added a poison that was 10+ and stated...

Instant death!   Enemy struck must roll a save or die.


It would only work once, but that chance to outright kill a boss/elite/solo probably could see it as an evened out ability.

Also grasp the feel of the assassin from earlier years when they could do one shot death attacks!


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## mneme (Jun 13, 2011)

GL: they still can!  They just have to do enough hp damage (which at least at 1st level they can easily do against even levelled foes).

Actually, Executioners do get one shot kill poisons at 25th level -- but they need to apply them out of combat (and they'll only affect same and lower level foes).

That said, +8 damage/encounter (15th level) and +10 damage+dazed/encounter (25th level) buff poisons are pretty nasty.  Assassin poison upgrades are 15th level, 20th level (for the paragon path), and 25th level.


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## WalterKovacs (Jun 14, 2011)

Neverfate said:


> Well, that's using the assumption that someone is wanting to play a stealthy thief. My rogue, before essentials, was an artful dodger build. It's hard to be a stealthy daredevil doing back flips and wall runs and general parkour tricks (and my character loves to be seen/heard). All of my powers were based around movement and charging and tricks. When the Thief came out I immediately switched over because it was more in fitting with my character.




Which is great. It should be possible to make both a stealthy, sneaking cutpurse type of rogue and a fast moving, daredevil, swashbuckling robber, etc ... but when the 'optimal' one is a charger, that does mean that a backstabber is "better off" being in your face than sneaking up behind you ... which does seem a bit counter intuitive. The "classic" theif is subpar compared to Leroy Rogue-ins.



> As far as Executioners. . . well my Executioner screamed that he was the best assassin in the world while making stealth checks (taking massive penalties) because there isn't many benefits to being hidden (CA, a few items that give bonus damage), but there's plenty of benefits for running up to people and stabbing them in the face (charging or not). Even the Design and Development article devs said they didn't see the Executioner as a ranged character (and seemed surprised that people wanted multiple poison uses for ranged weapons....apparently forgetting the fact that one guild IS RANGED BASED). That's just the nature of 4E, I guess.




Which is my complaint mostly. They do give the Executioner a few hide things (but in a clunky "you must be hidden to do this" way). There are some practical applications (suprise rounds, opportunities to cdg, making yourself hard to be attacked or hit), but really, the whole hiding thing is difficult to pull off, hard to keep when you attack (which you should be doing) and doesn't give a ton of benefit when you do it, which is a big reason why the shade is looked down upon, as the only classes that really want stealth get it auto trained anyway.

Still, it would seem that they should try and do something to make it so that, at the very least, an assassin is better of being a ninja than a pinball.


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## Mengu (Jun 14, 2011)

WalterKovacs said:


> Still, it would seem that they should try and do something to make it so that, at the very least, an assassin is better of being a ninja than a pinball.




Agreed, but perhaps that's less a fault of the assassin, and more a fault of the pinball machine.


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## Wednesday Boy (Jun 14, 2011)

Mengu said:


> Agreed, but perhaps that's less a fault of the assassin, and more a fault of the pinball machine.




Ever since I was a young rogue, I've used a silver maul.
From Fallcrest down to Nentir, I must have fought them all.
But I ain't seen nothing like him, in any sellsword hall.
That deaf, dumb assassin sure plays a mean pinball.


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## mneme (Jun 14, 2011)

@Wednesday Boy : ooh, almost, but I think you went incoherent somewhere in there.  Hmm.


Ever since I was a young elf, I've wanted to stand tall,
From Fallcrest down to Nentir, I must have fought them all,
But I ain't seen nothing like him, in any bar or hall,
That deaf, dumb, blind assassin, sure wields a nasty maul.

He stands like a statue, hides himself within plain sight,
Blends into the background, if it's dark or if it's light,
He shrouds by sheer perception, while he stands back from the fight,
That deaf, dumb, blind assassin, sure wields a nasty maul.

He's a slaying wizard, there's got to be a catch,
A slaying wizard, I've never seen his match.

[I think I'll stop there for now]


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## Neverfate (Jun 14, 2011)

WalterKovacs said:


> Which is great. It should be possible to make both a stealthy, sneaking cutpurse type of rogue and a fast moving, daredevil, swashbuckling robber, etc ... but when the 'optimal' one is a charger, that does mean that a backstabber is "better off" being in your face than sneaking up behind you ... which does seem a bit counter intuitive. The "classic" theif is subpar compared to Leroy Rogue-ins.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Unfortunately, when given feedback, WotC didn't seem to care very much that playing in a certain archetype mattered more than actual effectiveness at a role. That's their general mentality to keep a deformed "balance", I guess. They want the Executioner to be a sneaky killer and a poisoner. Those rules, in D&D as a whole, are not very effective in general (and charging and weapon damage are just better supported than any other option in the game). But that's what WotC wanted, regardless of whether or not it works in our games: it works in theirs.

WotC got exactly the Executioner they wanted via "play testing". And by that, I mean they got rid of the CDG loophole from the initial article. At least you can switch items as a free action now. . . ?


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## mneme (Jun 14, 2011)

Neverfate: I don't think it's so much that they "don't care" as that these aren't easy problems to solve.

Actually, though, I think you've put the nail on the head of the problem -- it's not that everything else is badly done, but that charging optimization is so well supported that tends to throw things (way) out of balance.

Characters who make most of their attacks with basic attacks are simpler to design, good in a wide variety of circumstances, and simpler to play than characters who mostly use powers.

Charge support enables certain intended playstyles, and keeps combats moving rather than static, encouraging battles with a lot of movement rather than a boring clash of lines (and certain characters, like barbarians and even most defenders, are -intended- to charge a fair bit).

In combination...every damage oriented character would do more damage if they were built around charging.  Sometimes including ones for which that makes no sense! (like a warlock charge build).

One solution to this would be to nerf charge optimization.  This should happen.

Another, though, would be to support other conditional damage at equivalent rates to the way charging is supported.  There are plenty of other conditions that one can key extra damage to -- and many of them are harder to cheese out than charging is, given badge of the berserker and the like.  Stuff like:
   If you were hidden at the beginning of your turn.
   When bloodied.
   When attacking a bloodied creature.
   When no creatures are adjacent to you (or no creatures other than the target are adjacent to you).
   When no ally is closer to the target than you are.
   If you killed something since your last turn [great for controllers; let them switch off killing minions and hitting real monsters]
   When attacking a prone target.
   When attacking a target you are grabbing.
   And so on.

Sure, charge opt needs to be less supported (or make most charge opt over-scaled item bonuses, so they don't stack and even compete with Iron Armbands/Radiant Weapons), but throw more support to other conditions that are interesting and fun to work for and you provide people with a choice of playstyle rather than going for charge builds in competitive situations as their only source of decent damage.


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## Quickleaf (Sep 17, 2011)

RangerWickett said:


> So how would you fix it?




A bit of thread necromancy... I was just looking at making a backup assassin PC for our Mystara game (the DM asked everyone to). Ive got a specific character concept in mind - a bardish scoundrel MCed Druid for the wildshaping (into a black fox) - so character optimization wasn't foremost in my mind. But even then I thought the assassin's damage looked low. 

I can think of two fixes that would both make sense:

First would be to give them the Draw First Blood feat (or equivalent) for free, that +5 damage vs uninjured giving a solid boost to alpha strikes.

Second would be a mechanic to encourage focusing on a single target until it was dead (akin to the Avenger's oath of enmity). I was thinking a+2 damage bonus against a target triggered on a hit, either lasting until end of your next turn OR stacking per consecutive hit (probably with a +8 max).

It would depend on whether you think of assassin as one-hit one-kill, or relentless engine of death. But this would put it's damage almost on par with the rogue while maintaining that "assassin" feel.


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## RangerWickett (Sep 17, 2011)

Our party died last week, so soon I'll be busting out a 12th level gnome assassin . . . with the Student of Evard theme. With no charge shenanigans, my attack looks like:

3d8+11 (rapier and finesse)
3d6 (sneak attack)
2d12 (student of evard; also does 2d6 to me)
5d10 assassination
10 poison

Average 86.5

I'm interested to see how it turns out, since the party will be a dragonborn knight, my gnome executioner, and a pair of twin avengers multiclassed into warlord with the Twiceborn Leader paragon path. I'm going to think of my character as the leader, since my goal is to mitigate damage by killing the worst enemy before he can hit my allies.


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## Quickleaf (Sep 17, 2011)

RangerWickett said:


> Our party died last week, so soon I'll be busting out a 12th level gnome assassin . . . with the Student of Evard theme. With no charge shenanigans, my attack looks like:



TPK? My condolences.

Dang I hadnt even read the paragon part of the executioner, +2d10 to "assassin's strike" is nasty!

Since you want to be the dealing the killing stroke to take advantage of "death attack" and lots of monsters around 12th level have 100+ hit points... How are you setting up attacks with the other party members? Will you hold until an enemy has been hit already or just go for it anyhow?



> I'm interested to see how it turns out, since the party will be a dragonborn knight, my gnome executioner, and a pair of twin avengers multiclassed into warlord with the Twiceborn Leader paragon path. I'm going to think of my character as the leader, since my goal is to mitigate damage by killing the worst enemy before he can hit my allies.



Heh. That's one way to look at it... Wait, *two* avengers, both MCed into warlord?? I shudder at the hurt you could lay down on a single foe caught between double oath of enmity.


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