# Any official rules for ballistas and catapults?



## zoroaster100 (Aug 18, 2006)

I thought I remembered seeing official rules for ballistas and catapults in the core books, but maybe I'm confusing this with 1st edition, which had such rules in the DM's Guide.  Can someone help me out and point me to such rules for D&D3.5, if they exist?


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## Nyarlathotep (Aug 18, 2006)

zoroaster100 said:
			
		

> I thought I remembered seeing official rules for ballistas and catapults in the core books, but maybe I'm confusing this with 1st edition, which had such rules in the DM's Guide.  Can someone help me out and point me to such rules for D&D3.5, if they exist?




I'm pretty sure they are covered in Heroes of Battle. Can't recall any other sources off the top of my head.


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## Arkhandus (Aug 18, 2006)

Pages 151 and 152 in the 3.0 Dungeon Master's Guide, or whatever pages correspond in the 3.5 DMG.  The end of Chapter 5: Campaigns.


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## Ranger REG (Aug 18, 2006)

You might want to check your _Dungeon Master's Guide v.3.5_ as well as _Heroes of Battle_


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## frankthedm (Aug 18, 2006)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#siegeEngines

_Ballista
A ballista is essentially a Huge heavy crossbow fixed in place. Its size makes it hard for most creatures to aim it. Thus, a Medium creature takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls when using a ballista, and a Small creature takes a -6 penalty. It takes a creature smaller than Large two full-round actions to reload the ballista after firing. 

A ballista takes up a space 5 feet across. 

Ballista 500 gp, 3d8 19-20crit 120 ft. increment, 1 crew member_


I actually recommend treating material AC bonus [totalof  armor, natural, shield] 8 points lower and changing the damage to 3d6+8. But i like slightly more dangerous crossbows...


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## Ogrork the Mighty (Aug 18, 2006)

_Heroes of Battle_ does indeed have advanced rules for siege weapons.


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## zoroaster100 (Aug 18, 2006)

Frankthedm, I like your suggestion for ballistas ignoring the first 8 points of "armor" (natural, armor and shield AC).  That makes the ballistas worth while and approximates somewhat the way they worked in first edition D&D (where I think they basically attacked against the equivalent of the target's touch AC).

But the rules should have also provided for two Medium creatures or four Small creatures operating a ballista as effectively as one Large creature (no attack penalty, and reload once per round).


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## irishfast (Aug 18, 2006)

yeah, because two humans could _easily_ reload a giant crossbow once every six seconds...


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## Dagger of Lath (Aug 18, 2006)

zoroaster100 said:
			
		

> But the rules should have also provided for two Medium creatures or four Small creatures operating a ballista as effectively as one Large creature (no attack penalty, and reload once per round).




Wield oversized weapon?


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## Goldmoon (Aug 18, 2006)

Can you _sneak attack_ with a ballista?


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## Dagger of Lath (Aug 18, 2006)

Goldmoon said:
			
		

> Can you _sneak attack_ with a ballista?




More importantly, do you need to?


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## Goldmoon (Aug 18, 2006)

Dagger of Lath said:
			
		

> More importantly, do you need to?




You always _need_ more damage.


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## zoroaster100 (Aug 18, 2006)

If one person can easily reload a ballista in 12 seconds and an ogre can easily reload a ballista in 6 seconds, I don't see why two persons working together as a team could not easily reload the same ballista in the same time as one ogre.


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## FrostedMini1337 (Aug 18, 2006)

Goldmoon said:
			
		

> Can you _sneak attack_ with a ballista?




If you can't I have a player who cheated. 

You just have to ready an action til they knock down the door.  They are suprised and flat-footed, you make your attack roll.


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## Ogrork the Mighty (Aug 19, 2006)

I'd rather make ballista and catapults use ranged touch attacks.


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## Ranger REG (Aug 19, 2006)

Ogrork the Mighty said:
			
		

> I'd rather make ballista and catapults use ranged touch attacks.



Against creatures? Use Area of Effect attack. I wouldn't even try to apply armor as DR against a 500-lb stone.


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## boolean (Aug 19, 2006)

Goldmoon said:
			
		

> Can you _sneak attack_ with a ballista?




If you're within 30ft. 60ft if you have the Crossbow Sniper feat from PHB II.

And if a ballista is simply a huge heavy crossbow, doesn't this mean that Rapid Reload should help reduce reloading time?


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Aug 19, 2006)

Goldmoon said:
			
		

> Can you _sneak attack_ with a ballista?




I steal his pants!


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## JoelF (Aug 19, 2006)

Does Heroes of Battle have rules for destroying siege equipment?  I was very dissapointed when I realized the DMG didn't have hardness, hp for a balista.


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## Arkhandus (Aug 19, 2006)

You can probably eyeball it as having 4 times the HP of a Medium heavy crossbow, with the same hardness (as hardness is determined by material/composition, whereas HP is a factor of both materials and mass; bigger or thicker objects have more HP, but the same hardness as other objects of the same material).


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## JoelF (Aug 20, 2006)

True, but what about a catapult?  

I know you can just fudge it and determine what you want it to be mid-game, but it would be nice to have it as part of the stats.  Siege engines are worth targeting with area of effect spells, etc in ways that weapons aren't.


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## FrostedMini1337 (Aug 20, 2006)

Have you checked Arms and Equipment?  It gives rules for ships and whatnot and may have this stuff in it too.

The issue is that they are so large that you would do damage to sections like ships (if you say they are large as they are in the dmg, we houserules them to be larger) because you can destroy part of it, and make it non-working, but it could be relatively minor amount of work to fix it.


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## frankthedm (Aug 20, 2006)

Goldmoon said:
			
		

> Can you _sneak attack_ with a ballista?



By the Raw yes. Though I would hope most DMs would say "no" due to how unwieldy the ballista is.







			
				Ogrork the Mighty said:
			
		

> I'd rather make ballista and catapults use ranged touch attacks.



I'm leery of having the attack ignore all physical armor. The 8 points of  “armor punch” I feel represents the “STR” a projectile of that potency would have without completely negating  the chance of enough armor stopping the bolt.


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## Ranger REG (Aug 20, 2006)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> I'm leery of having the attack ignore all physical armor.



Well, I dunno. We could experiment. You wear the armor and I'll set up the ballista.


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## frankthedm (Aug 20, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Well, I dunno. We could experiment. You wear the armor and I'll set up the ballista.



Main reason why i house ruled the armor ignore is 8 points, unenchanted full plate is tin foil to the balilsta bolt. 

Remember a huge giant could pick up said balista and use as a his heavy crossbow, which it is. If the ballista gets through all armor, that is a bit overboard. _Full plate +4_, _tower sheild +3 _ and a _Amulet of natural armor +3 _ might be enough to slow the bolt down a bit. 

The damage is a bit heavy, but so is the opportunity cost in losing a full round to reload.

*house rules*...
_Medium Heavy Crossbow 1d8+2, 2 point armor punch.
Large Heavy Crossbow 2d6+4, 4 point armor punch.
Huge Heavy Crossbow 3d6+8, 8 point armor punch._


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## Goldmoon (Aug 21, 2006)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> I steal his pants!




I'm glad someone got it.


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