# Rogue One Review (Spoilers)



## Imaculata (Dec 14, 2016)

*Rogue One - Script writing zero*
_(When too much fan service ruins a movie)_

As  you can probably tell from the title, I did not like Rogue One. But  please, if you are a big Star Wars fan, please don't let my opinion ruin  your movie going experience. In fact, watch the movie first yourself,  and then read my review.

This movie is probably going to leave  fans divided. There are things to like in this movie. The designs, the  vehicles, the costumes, the worlds... it all looks great. And the movie  also has a spectacular finale. But if the movie fails to make you care,  then there are no stakes, and that undermines the finale. The cringe is  strong with this one, and I REALLY wanted to like it. I tried so hard to  like it. But I hate to say it, but this movie is not as good as The  Force Awakens.

The movie has a very hasty and disjointed  beginning. It jumps all over the place, from location to location. It  barely takes any time to work out a whole scene in each location. It  kind of felt like we were sightseeing, instead of watching a story  unfold. And I strongly feel that the entire introduction with Jyn Erso  as a child could have been dropped from the film, and it would have been  better for it. We do not need to know that Jyn was separated from her  father as a child. It is so cliche, that it barely needs mentioning. And  the movie would have been stronger if both the audience and the main  character would have had doubts about Galen Erso's motives. Is he a pawn  of the empire, or secretly a rebel? The movie leaves no doubt that  Jyn's father is a good guy, and thus any suspense there is taken away.

The  movie also has a very hamfisted way of introducing characters. They  don't flow into the movie naturally, but are just dropped in suddenly,  and then immediately named. And it doesn't help that they have a lot of  silly Star Wars names. And many of the characters don't feel relevant to  the plot. In fact, I believe the movie would have worked just fine with  just the three main characters. I did like K2-SO, but only because he  gets most of the funny lines.

The acting is also disjointed.  Felicity Jones is great and likeable, but mostly because of her acting,  not because of good screen writing. She delivers a good performance,  which is undermined by poor direction and poor screenwriting, leaving  you not really caring. When a movie has an emotional scene, you've got  to feel it as a viewer. But despite Felicity's good acting, the movie  fails to make you care. The other actors seem to struggle with their  lines, especially the none native-English speaking ones. With Krennic  this is especially a problem, because he occasionally slurs his lines,  which doesn't make him very intimidating. The movie also fails to set  him up as an intimidating villain. But the worst by far... and I hate to  say this... is Vader. His lines are poorly written, his line delivery  by James Earl Jones is underwhelming, and instead of being intimidating,  he just does fan service stuff. Remember how Darth Vader was  intimidating right from the opening of A New Hope? You didn't see him  flailing his lightsaber around, force choking people left and right, and throwing rebels all over the place. The art of subtlety was lost in this movie.

The  vehicles look great, but several I feel were simply dropped in because  the filmmakers liked the toy. The AT ST that we see in the trailer is  barely in the movie for like two shots, which begs the question why you  would even have him in the scene. If you're going to throw an AT-ST in  your movie, build an action scene around him. The movie also makes  little effort to build up dramatic tension when these machines are  revealed. 

And then there is the fan service. This is where the  movie got really cringy. My biggest complaint is the inclusion of a  clearly CGI Tarkin. Peter Cushing is obviously dead, but it is REALLY  hard to make a real person look convincing in CGI. Visually he's almost  convincing, but it's in the acting, the movements, and the overall  performance, that he looks fake. And he appears a lot in the movie, and  has a lot of lines. So that sticks out like a sore thumb. There's also a  completely unnecessary cameo by C3PO and R2D2, Vader himself didn't  need to be in the movie either, and they name drop several Expanded  Universe super weapons, such as the Dark Saber. And is it any surprise  that we see Leia at the end? But I think one of the worst things they  did is have this short action scene with Darth Vader at the end.  Remember how Vader just walked in like a boss while his Stormtroopers  did all the fighting in A New Hope? Well, not here. Vader's up front,  deflecting blaster shots with his saber, and throwing rebels into walls.  And it severely undermines him as a character. It feels so strongly as a  piece of fan fiction, but they just couldn't restrain themselves.

The  music also disappoints, and I can't believe I'm actually complaining  about the music, but it stood out. Right from the opening title, it  feels off to not hear the Star Wars theme, and the new theme that we  hear just doesn't work. There's also an odd stylistic choice to not have  exciting music during every scene where the Death Star fires. Why? Why  does it feel like the composer is watching a different scene? Shouldn't  the music pick up in excitement when the Death Star is about to fire?

So  all this is a lot of negativity. But you are probably wondering, is  there anything good? Well as I said, Jyn Erso and KT-SO are good. The  finale is long and has great action scenes. The AT-AT scenes are also  well done, and I like the creature designs and all the costumes. Some of  the city crowd scenes are fun, but it makes you wish they spent more  time there, and took their time to write more than one brief scene for  those places. I liked what happens to the main characters at the end,  which I felt was a lot better than them just hopping on a spaceship and  escaping in the nick of time. But all that is too little and too late to  save the movie.

In the end, this is just bad screenwriting. They  tried to include as much fan service as possible. And no matter how  much I tried to like it, I couldn't. In fact, I could feel that it was  bad right as the movie started. The polar opposite of The Force Awakens  in a way, where the entire intro was really really good, and immediately  made you feel like they got the mood right. Rogue One, despite all its  X-Wings and Tie Fighters, did not feel like a Star Wars movie. It looked  like one, but it made me feel nothing,


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## Morrus (Dec 15, 2016)

Absolutely loved it! It's up there with IV and V for me, ahead of VII (and I liked VII a lot) and VI.  And, of course, a billion miles ahead of the prequels.

I hadn't realised how much I missed the Empire.

The scene at the end with Vader was sublime. Possibly my favourite bit of the film; the first time you ever _really_ see what a horror Vader is. He's needed a scene like that for years (and we're unlikely to see him again, I should think).

All in all, this felt like Star Wars in a way that the prequels did not. 

The Tarkin and Leia appearances will probably be the most controversial. Both are mo-capped Gollum-style CGI creations. They are very good, but there's still that hint of uncanny valley with human CGI characters. The tech's not *quite* there yet. But I can't deny that that was a heck of a technical accomplishment.

My ranking of SW movies now is probably:

V
IV
R1
V
VII
--- big gap ---
III
I
II


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## Morrus (Dec 15, 2016)

And it answers two questions that always niggled me, and answers them well in a non patch way - 

1) Why have the weakness in the Death Star? (I know there have been any fan explanations and jokes explaining it, but this explanation is SO much more satisfying.)

2) Why was Leia carrying the plans on a disc rather than just transmitting them (or, hell, uploading them to the Space Internet)? 

Both questions answered well and convincingly.


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## Imaculata (Dec 15, 2016)

Well, like I said, this movie will divide the fans. Some people will absolutely love it, and some will hate it. I agree that those two explanations are a welcome addition to the lore. But I don't agree with Vader. He did not need this, he never did. Vader is a menacing villain because you know what he could do, and yet he shows restraint. 

I feel the filmmakers did not understand his character, and he was poorly used as well. There was no reason for Krennic to visit him on "unspecified lava planet", other than to get choked and throw a Vader cameo in. His dialogue was poor, he wasn't menacing, and it served no purpose other than fan service. The action scene with Vader at the end is pure fan service as well. We did not need to see him go nuts with his powers. He never needed to do that in any of the original movies, and in fact, I think it makes him less convincing as a villain.


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## Jhaelen (Dec 15, 2016)

Morrus said:


> 2) Why was Leia carrying the plans on a disc rather than just transmitting them (or, hell, uploading them to the Space Internet)?



I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but I think there's no such thing as the Internet in the Star Wars universe.


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## Morrus (Dec 15, 2016)

Imaculata said:


> Well, like I said, this movie will divide the fans. Some people will absolutely love it, and some will hate it. I agree that those two explanations are a welcome addition to the lore. But I don't agree with Vader. He did not need this, he never did. Vader is a menacing villain because you know what he could do, and yet he shows restraint.
> 
> I feel the filmmakers did not understand his character, and he was poorly used as well. There was no reason for Krennic to visit him on "unspecified lava planet", other than to get choked and throw a Vader cameo in. His dialogue was poor, he wasn't menacing, and it served no purpose other than fan service. The action scene with Vader at the end is pure fan service as well. We did not need to see him go nuts with his powers. He never needed to do that in any of the original movies, and in fact, I think it makes him less convincing as a villain.




Yeah, you said. I couldn't disagree more.


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## fjw70 (Dec 15, 2016)

Jhaelen said:


> I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but I think there's no such thing as the Internet in the Star Wars universe.




Star Wars has the Holonet.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/HoloNet


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## Dioltach (Dec 15, 2016)

I really enjoyed it. I agree that perhaps some of the scenes could be cut (do we need the scenes where Bodhi is introduced and tortured?), and the pace felt a bit frantic to me, but those are my only complaints. I rank it below Empire, and above New Hope.


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## Imaculata (Dec 15, 2016)

One thing that especially bothers me is the missing Tie Fighter scene. If you've seen the trailer, you may remember the scene where Jyn Erso does this cool walk up to the camera while she reaches for her gun, and then this Tie Fighter rises up in front of her.

In the movie, the Tie Fighter is gone. But she still reaches for her gun, even though there is now nothing there. This reeks of studio interference. Something definitely got cut there, and now the whole scene is weird.


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## Morrus (Dec 15, 2016)

I'm still trying to decide how I feel about the CGI characters. I think that in 5 years, they'll look *really* bad, because CGI does not age well. Right now, they are impressive, but there is still a spot of uncanny valley. That said, the likeness and the voice acting are superb.


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## Dioltach (Dec 15, 2016)

Morrus said:


> I'm still trying to decide how I feel about the CGI characters. I think that in 5 years, they'll look *really* bad, because CGI does not age well. Right now, they are impressive, but there is still a spot of uncanny valley. That said, the likeness and the voice acting are superb.




I wouldn't worry: Lucas probably included a clause in the contract with Disney that the movies have to be re-edited and re-released every five years or so.

Actually, I think it will probably hold up for a while, at least for home viewing.


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## Imaculata (Dec 15, 2016)

Regarding the CGI characters, it completely took me out of the movie. Because they place this fully CGI version of a well known, and really good actor, and the animation doesn't quite succeed at selling the illusion. They should have gone for a look alike with good make up effects, instead of uncanny valley.

On the other hand, my female friend didn't notice that he was CG, so I suppose some people will be fooled by it. But yes, I think given more time, it will absolutely not age well.


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## ccs (Dec 16, 2016)

Overall I was entertained.  I liked it a helluva lot more than EP7.

But:
1) It was a bit uneven,

2) I didn't actually catch the names of most of the rebel squad, nor did I care.  Disposable heroes in a dirty dozen style movie....  Asian guy with stick, heavy machine-gunner type, pilot, token alien guy, extra squad members.....
That I didn't catch or care about their names is probably a negative thing.

3) GAH, the CGI in this one!
Ok, there's a lot of really good CGI.  But when they screw it up it just pops right off the screen at you.
A) Tarkin. 
B) The X-Wings & Y-Wings....  There's more than one sequence where the ships look worse detail wise than the $10 snap-tite model kits on the shelves of Toys-R-US.


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## ccs (Dec 16, 2016)

Imaculata said:


> The  vehicles look great, but several I feel were simply dropped in because  the filmmakers liked the toy. The AT ST that we see in the trailer is  barely in the movie for like two shots, which begs the question why you  would even have him in the scene. If you're going to throw an AT-ST in  your movie, build an action scene around him. The movie also makes  little effort to build up dramatic tension when these machines are  revealed.




You are aware that the AT-ST is in ESB, right?  And doing considerably less....



Imaculata said:


> And then there is the fan service. ~~~  and they name drop several Expanded  Universe super weapons, such as the Dark Saber. ,




So?  As someone who stopped reading the EU books shortly after the Thrawn series those names meant nothing to me.  Didn't ruin my viewing xp.  Though I thought they missed a chance for a joke there.  Something along the lines of "Who comes up with these names??"
Thinking of jokes.... I almost blew pepsi out my nose on the seat in front of me laughing as Jyn looks up the access tube at the choppy hatch she'll have to get through.


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## ccs (Dec 16, 2016)

Morrus said:


> The scene at the end with Vader was sublime. Possibly my favourite bit of the film; the first time you ever _really_ see what a horror Vader is. He's needed a scene like that for years* (and we're unlikely to see him again, I should think).*




Oh I think we'll see Vader again.  Afterall, Disney knows he's a bankable character AND they've flat out said that none of us will live long enough to see the end of SW movies.  
They'll put him back on screen.  I'll bet about 2021. (sooner if they can contrive a way to force him into whatever the two next standalone movies are)


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## trappedslider (Dec 16, 2016)

I enjoyed it immensely, the CGI used for Tarkin and Leia didn't pull me out at all.

I do find it funny, that some fans are like the following;

Fans: "We want more Star Wars!" 

Studio :"Okay,here"

Fans: "This isn't want we want!"

Studio: -_-


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## Imaculata (Dec 16, 2016)

trappedslider said:


> I enjoyed it immensely, the CGI used for Tarkin and Leia didn't pull me out at all.
> 
> I do find it funny, that some fans are like the following;
> 
> ...




I think a more fair way to put it would be:

*Fans:* "We can't wait to see another good Star Wars movie that will wash away the bad taste of the prequels."

*Studio:* -Interference, reshoots, lots of fan service-

*Fans: *"Hang on, it still needs to hold up as a decent movie too. You can't just throw a bunch of X-wings and Tie-fighters at us, and expect we'll automatically like it. You need a good screenplay, a good story, good acting, and it needs to stand on its own."



ccs said:


> You are aware that the AT-ST is in ESB, right?  And doing considerably less....




That's where it made its first appearance, of course. As an extra background vehicle. It wasn't until Return of the Jedi that they decided to give these things their own action scene, and boy did they go all out. When the AT-ST shows up in Empire Strikes Back, it is part of a massive assault on the rebel base on Hoth, and its the AT-AT's that are the main focus, and the main threat.

So what was the focus in Rogue One? They have AT-A(C)T's in Rogue One, and they build a very long action scene around that. But with the AT-ST, they show it in the trailer, thus building up excitement... and then it turns out it's not really used at all. Why drop such an iconic vehicle in the movie, and not use it? The moment that thing shows up in the movie, you'd think that would be a big deal in an urban ground battle. And they certainly draw attention to it. It could turn the whole battle around.... but nope, I guess it's gone now. See, and that is why it bothered me. In an urban battle that thing would be a pretty big deal. In Empire it was but a minor detail among the much larger and more dangerous AT-AT's. 

Besides, it wasn't iconic until after Return of the Jedi. They could have had some other new vehicle in the background, and I would not have been bothered by it quite as much. But when you drop such a well known vehicle in your urban action scene, and then not use it at all, it really sticks out. There was such a lack of focus in this movie!

And how many fans were excited for a big urban AT-ST battle after seeing the trailer? I bet a lot of fans were excited to see that. Why build up excitement for something, and then not have a pay off in the movie?

It's bad direction, bad screenwriting and bad action choreography.


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## Morrus (Dec 16, 2016)

Imaculata said:


> It's bad direction, bad screenwriting and bad action choreography.




Sorry, [MENTION=6801286]Imaculata[/MENTION], I'm not quite getting the message - could you be a bit clearer about what you thought of the movie?


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## Imaculata (Dec 16, 2016)

Morrus said:


> Sorry, @_*Imaculata*_, I'm not quite getting the message - could you be a bit clearer about what you thought of the movie?




Its a work of art(!)


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## trappedslider (Dec 16, 2016)

My biggest issue is that at least to me Vader's lightsaber looked more orange than red.


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## Istbor (Dec 16, 2016)

I enjoyed it.
I liked how it explained the events leading up to A New Hope. 
I liked that it killed everyone off
It had good and compelling scenes.  The action was not too much in your face or way out there.  I thought the dirty little rebel strike in Jedah was well done, and I liked the Finale as well. 

There was a CGI character or two, but what are you going to do? I think it was well done, or really as well done as one could expect.  I mean, your brain is telling you that he is dead, and she is pretty old now.  So of course there is going to be a little bit of a sense of disbelief there. 

While I think some things were not needed or could have been cut.  Certainly the Two very famous droids.

Honestly, the one of the weirdest things to me, while I was watching it, was the console up at the top of the tower.  Who would want to put that there? Then... I calmed down and thought about it for a moment, and realized, "you know what?  This is just how things are built in the Star Wars Universe". 

I think the overall feels of the movie were great.  Would watch it again for certain, and while I was able to watch it for free due to my work, it would be well worth the ticket price.


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## trappedslider (Dec 16, 2016)

Looks like Rogue One hasn't been added to the list of things that have ruined Star Wars.


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## MarkB (Dec 17, 2016)

Imaculata said:


> That's where it made its first appearance, of course. As an extra background vehicle. It wasn't until Return of the Jedi that they decided to give these things their own action scene, and boy did they go all out. When the AT-ST shows up in Empire Strikes Back, it is part of a massive assault on the rebel base on Hoth, and its the AT-AT's that are the main focus, and the main threat.
> 
> So what was the focus in Rogue One? They have AT-A(C)T's in Rogue One, and they build a very long action scene around that. But with the AT-ST, they show it in the trailer, thus building up excitement... and then it turns out it's not really used at all. Why drop such an iconic vehicle in the movie, and not use it? The moment that thing shows up in the movie, you'd think that would be a big deal in an urban ground battle. And they certainly draw attention to it. It could turn the whole battle around.... but nope, I guess it's gone now. See, and that is why it bothered me. In an urban battle that thing would be a pretty big deal. In Empire it was but a minor detail among the much larger and more dangerous AT-AT's.
> 
> Besides, it wasn't iconic until after Return of the Jedi. They could have had some other new vehicle in the background, and I would not have been bothered by it quite as much. But when you drop such a well known vehicle in your urban action scene, and then not use it at all, it really sticks out.




But I think that's kind-of part of the point the movie was trying to make about the Rebellion. In the original trilogy you're seeing them from the really narrow focus of the main cast, and it's easy to see them as the plucky freedom fighters, and the big walking tanks as these massive unique threats. This movie shows just how desperate and dark the rebellion is, filled with breakaway factions, extremists, and a lot of people who've had to do some very bad things just to keep the resistance alive. And these people face the full might of the Empire every day of their lives - that's why you can just throw in an AT-ST as part of the Imperial policing force, because it's not this big, astonishing thing, it's just another part of the routine oppression that everyone on an Imperial-controlled planet is subjected to.

Honestly, if you should take anything from this, it's that you shouldn't try to construct the whole movie in your head before seeing it based just on the trailers. It feels like what you're really disappointed about is that the actual movie didn't follow your script.


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## trappedslider (Dec 17, 2016)

One thing I've been seeing from other reviewers and I agree with is that the movie reestablishes Vader as a serious threat after the years of  disneyfication  and marketing overexposure


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## RangerWickett (Dec 17, 2016)

I loved it.

I loved CGI Peter Cushing, because I love original Star Wars and all its flawed special effects. There was KY jelly on the lens to make the speeder float in A New Hope! I'm fine with some uncanny valley if I get to have a sneering Tarkin. Showing the Empire with a bit more detail was satisfying, and oh hell, the weapon test on Jedha was stupendous.

I would have cut out the tentacle monster mindreading scene, because it accomplished nothing, and I felt like the Saw Gerrera storyline didn't quite have enough oomph. I suspect there was more flashback in early versions.

The action scenes were wonderful. Loved every one of them. I'm quite happy that the trailers did not show that we were going to have an space fleet battle. Like, I was enjoying the 'desperate mission' of the ending, but then we ramped it up to epic stakes. And I'm a sucker for starfighters. That's why I love Return of the Jedi most:

[video=youtube;94rlYxLd1Qg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_620998213&feature=iv&src_vid=xPZigWFyK2o&v=94rlYxLd1Qg[/video]

My favorite new bit of world-building -- the Death Star relied on khyber crystals to power the super laser. So I can imagine it's actually just one immense light-saber.

Now, I didn't need to see the "death sentence in twelve systems" guys, nor R2 and 3P0, but otherwise the fan service was fine. Oh, but they should have changed Vader's neck. It looked too wide. And, honestly, I kinda would have preferred a bit deeper and menacing voice from Vader for the "choke" joke. Then again, Vader was always a little sassy.


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## Imaculata (Dec 17, 2016)

MarkB said:


> Honestly, if you should take anything from this, it's that you shouldn't try to construct the whole movie in your head before seeing it based just on the trailers. It feels like what you're really disappointed about is that the actual movie didn't follow your script.




No, the problem is that the movie was EXACTLY what I expected from start to finish. There were NO surprises.



RangerWickett said:


> My favorite new bit of world-building -- the Death Star relied on khyber crystals to power the super laser. So I can imagine it's actually just one immense light-saber.




That' so stupid. The bloody thing already has a giant reactor! Why would it run on khyber crystals?!


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## MarkB (Dec 17, 2016)

Imaculata said:


> That' so stupid. The bloody thing already has a giant reactor! Why would it run on khyber crystals?!



I would assume that they're used to focus the laser, just as they focus the beam of a light saber.

Seriously, at this point you're just picking fights with the movie for the sake of it.


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## trappedslider (Dec 17, 2016)

MarkB said:


> I would assume that they're used to focus the laser, just as they focus the beam of a light saber.
> 
> Seriously, at this point you're just picking fights with the movie for the sake of it.




you sir appear to be correct from Wookiepedia :


> Galen Erso theorized that larger crystals needed to be faceted, not only to eliminate occlusions and vacancies, but also to minimize diffraction resulting from the introduction of energy from a lasing medium. With proper faceting, the pulse of energy released by the crystal could be greatly amplified and, with the help of containment devices, provide cheap and inexpensive power for developing worlds, or be directed into a collimating beam of incredible power; as was used on the DS-1 battle station.




and


> The most prominent weapon emplacement on the Death Star was its superlaser—a weapon powered by a hypermatter reactor and focused through giant kyber crystals


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## Waller (Dec 17, 2016)

Imaculata said:


> No, the problem is that the movie was EXACTLY what I expected from start to finish. There were NO surprises.
> 
> That' so stupid. The bloody thing already has a giant reactor! Why would it run on khyber crystals?!




You're stretching now. Man, when you're criticising the imaginary physics of fictional technology you may be in danger of entering the Corpsetaker zone.


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## cmad1977 (Dec 17, 2016)

trappedslider said:


> I enjoyed it immensely, the CGI used for Tarkin and Leia didn't pull me out at all.
> 
> I do find it funny, that some fans are like the following;
> 
> ...




It's a lot like D&D that way. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ccs (Dec 17, 2016)

Imaculata said:


> No, the problem is that the movie was EXACTLY what I expected from start to finish. There were NO surprises.




You're one of those SW fans who take this stuff way too seriously.

I suggest for the next one you avoid watching every trailer, reading every yahoo article, etc.  
All you need to know is: New Star Wars movie, xx/xx/2017.

Worked fine for me.
I knew the title, the date, the general concept of the movie (rebels steal the DS plans dirty dozen style prior to ANH) & then a few of the actors once I saw some art/toys.
I saw PART of 1 trailer & zero tv adds.
Like I said, worked just fine.

Oh, & try and watch these things from the PoV of a kid.


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## trappedslider (Dec 17, 2016)

cmad1977 said:


> It's a lot like D&D that way.




Well, you know the SW fandom is one of the poster children for "Unpleaseable fan base"


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## Imaculata (Dec 17, 2016)

Corrosive said:


> You're stretching now. Man, when you're criticising the imaginary physics of fictional technology you may be in danger of entering the Corpsetaker zone.




No, here's my point:

In the movie they said it was fueled by Khyber crystals. Not focused, but fueled. And we know it runs on a reactor. So why would it run on khyber crystals as well?

See, my point is that the movie is just name dropping stuff from the expanded universe for the sake of fan service. It doesn't really serve a purpose in the plot. Why were we told it is fueled by khyber crystals? Why did Jyn Erso wear a khyber crystal around her neck?


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## Ancalagon (Dec 18, 2016)

I wouldn't call it excellent, but it was very good.

Part of me was amused how the "party" really looked like a Star-wars RPG party - the force user (but not jedi), the heavy soldier, the scout, the rogue, the droid... 



Istbor said:


> Honestly, the one of the weirdest things to me, while I was watching it, was the console up at the top of the tower.  Who would want to put that there? Then... I calmed down and thought about it for a moment, and realized, "you know what?  This is just how things are built in the Star Wars Universe".




Completely agree with you - I too was "why the heck is that over there?!?" and then I too reminded myself that this is how star wars does thing for some reason



RangerWickett said:


> I loved it.
> 
> I loved CGI Peter Cushing, because I love original Star Wars and all its flawed special effects. There was KY jelly on the lens to make the speeder float in A New Hope! I'm fine with some uncanny valley if I get to have a sneering Tarkin. Showing the Empire with a bit more detail was satisfying, and oh hell, the weapon test on Jedha was stupendous.




Tarkin *had* to be in the story.  And while it was still in the uncanny valley, it was in the "on the way climbing out" side of it, no the "burn it with fire" side.  



> I would have cut out the tentacle monster mindreading scene, because it accomplished nothing, and I felt like the Saw Gerrera storyline didn't quite have enough oomph. I suspect there was more flashback in early versions.




I too felt that ... didn't quite work.


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## MarkB (Dec 18, 2016)

Imaculata said:


> No, here's my point:
> 
> In the movie they said it was fueled by Khyber crystals. Not focused, but fueled. And we know it runs on a reactor. So why would it run on khyber crystals as well?




You do know that a reactor is not, itself, a form of fuel, right? Your question is the equivalent of saying "my car has an engine, why does it need to run on gasoline?"


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## Morrus (Dec 18, 2016)

Imaculata said:


> In the movie they said it was fueled by Khyber crystals. Not focused, but fueled. And we know it runs on a reactor. So why would it run on khyber crystals as well?




I dunno. You seem to have a firm grasp on the magic sci-fi physics and it's apparent errors. Why don't you explain how it all should work and where the errors are?



> Why did Jyn Erso wear a khyber crystal around her neck?




It was given to her by her dad. What was hard about that?

More importantly -- WHY WERE HER SHOES BROWN? Explain that! 

I have to agree with previous posters. You seem to be at the point of criticizing the movie because you didn't like the colour of somebody's pants.

(Edit - [MENTION=6801286]Imaculata[/MENTION], re-reading my post it reads a bit more aggressive than funny; apologies!)


----------



## Dire Bare (Dec 18, 2016)

fjw70 said:


> Star Wars has the Holonet.
> 
> http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/HoloNet




Does it? Is the holonet established in the movies, is it current canon? Or is it in the discarded expanded universe? I'm honestly not sure, as I don't keep on the the vast lore of the Star Wars.


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## Morrus (Dec 18, 2016)

Dire Bare said:


> Does it? Is the holonet established in the movies, is it current canon? Or is it in the discarded expanded universe? I'm honestly not sure, as I don't keep on the the vast lore of the Star Wars.




To be fair, any scenario where it doesn't exist seems fairly ludicrous. We've seen that they have galaxy-wide instantaneous real-time transmissions. For a space internet not to come out of that is nonsensical.


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## Ancalagon (Dec 18, 2016)

About the fueled:  It is very possible the character misspoke somewhat... people mangle technical terms *all the time*.


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## ccs (Dec 18, 2016)

Imaculata said:


> No, here's my point:
> 
> In the movie they said it was fueled by Khyber crystals. Not focused, but fueled. And we know it runs on a reactor. So why would it run on khyber crystals as well?
> 
> See, my point is that the movie is just name dropping stuff from the expanded universe for the sake of fan service. It doesn't really serve a purpose in the plot. Why were we told it is fueled by khyber crystals? Why did Jyn Erso wear a khyber crystal around her neck?




1) Last I checked reactors need fuel.  At least the ones here on present day earth do.  Apparently this one consumes a specific flavor of crystal as opposed to Uranium or whatever.

2) NAMING the fuel sounds more interesting than not naming it.  Might as well name it something that'll resonate with people who've read a bunch of crappy novels & are but-hurt that Disney scrapped all that precious "cannon"....

3) Because her dad gave it to her?


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## fjw70 (Dec 18, 2016)

Dire Bare said:


> Does it? Is the holonet established in the movies, is it current canon? Or is it in the discarded expanded universe? I'm honestly not sure, as I don't keep on the the vast lore of the Star Wars.




Not in the movies but has been referenced in the new canon novels.


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## Goodsport (Dec 18, 2016)

While _Rogue One: A Stars War Story_ took place just before _Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope_, the following took place just after it:


[video=youtube;S3a5j8PgQxg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3a5j8PgQxg[/video]​


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## trappedslider (Dec 18, 2016)

Isn't there a rule against posting that?


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## Wolf72 (Dec 18, 2016)

Loved it! ... was very cool.  Yes, a lot was going on.  How to make it better?  Make it a 6 part (same production quality) mini-series of 1 hr episodes each (1hr 30m with commercials.

As much as the prequel trilogy gets slammed, I find lots of kids who love them.  Have to remember the target of audience of children.  I don't hate the prequels, but the originals are still the best.  VII was way to fast for me (again loved it).  

I showed my students the originals (digitally remastered on VHS, Han shoots Greedo with no return fire!) they said they were boring and took to long ... wanted to draw my own lightsaber and go Anakin on them!


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Dec 18, 2016)

Just got back from seeing it; I enjoyed it and my sense largely parallels Morrus'.  I'll have to see it again to solidify my opinion, but right now I'd put it after ESB and Star Wars, ahead of TFA, RotJ, and of course the prequels.

I think TFA did characterization better, though it's easier when they are fewer characters.  R1 opened a bit slowly but still missed characterization, but it didn't suffer from the derivative plot that TFA had. Both had their callbacks, I'm mostly OK with them -- the Red and Gold squadron bits I think were essential, but Ponda Baba and R2/3PO were probably unnecessary (could have ust as easily had them in a non-speaking role in the background of a shot). Star Wars Rebels inclusions were a bit cute.

I'm OK with Vader (question: why doesn't Bacta heal Vader's burns and scars? It heals everything else in this universe?), though they could have just used him at the end instead of doing the Mustafar scene which was just a hair out of place (didn't break the movie, though).

CGI Tarkin was almost OK; with a bit more shadow they could have pulled it off.  Reuse of Red/Gold leaders worked.  CGI Leia was horrible and really jarring at the end of an otherwise great effects movie -- they could have stopped with the shot of her from behind and a line that said something like "Here are the plans we recovered, Princess ..."

I've liked my starfighter battle scenes the best in my Star Wars movies and this one didn't disappoint.


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## Hypersmurf (Dec 18, 2016)

Ancalagon said:


> About the fueled:  It is very possible the character misspoke somewhat... people mangle technical terms *all the time*.






I figured there could be a difference between the reactor which powers the hyperdrive, life support, lights, etc and the power source for the unprecedented planet-killing superlaser.

-Hyp.


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## MarkB (Dec 18, 2016)

Hypersmurf said:


> I figured there could be a difference between the reactor which powers the hyperdrive, life support, lights, etc and the power source for the unprecedented planet-killing superlaser.
> 
> -Hyp.




Equally, it could be that each shot the superlaser makes burns out some of the focusing crystals, requiring frequent replacements, so it's 'fueled' by them in that sense. So, what the movie said was true, from a certain point of view.


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## Imaculata (Dec 18, 2016)

ccs said:


> 1) Last I checked reactors need fuel.  At least the ones here on present day earth do.  Apparently this one consumes a specific flavor of crystal as opposed to Uranium or whatever.
> 
> 2) NAMING the fuel sounds more interesting than not naming it.  Might as well name it something that'll resonate with people who've read a bunch of crappy novels & are but-hurt that Disney scrapped all that precious "cannon"....
> 
> 3) Because her dad gave it to her?




But what was the point? Why name the fuel that is used by the Death Star? Why did we need to know where the Empire was getting the fuel? Why did Jyn happen to have a necklace of a Khyber Crystal around her neck? You'd think all this would be leading up to something. But it didn't.

The screenplay for this was a mess. A lot of scenes that didn't go anywhere. A lot of scenes were also poorly edited, and went on just a bit too long. And just blatant editing mistakes, such as a character looking left, and then looking right again before the scene ends. Or an awkward silence dropping in a dialogue. It was jarring.

I'm not saying the movie doesn't have entertaining stuff in it. But I'm not blind to blatant bad film making. I can see when a scene is not edited well. I can tell when plot points don't go anywhere. I can tell when the music score does not fit with a particular scene. And I can sometimes tell when a scene was hastily changed by the studio (such as Jyn pulling out her blaster at the Tie Fighter that is now cut from the movie). That is indefensible.


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## MarkB (Dec 18, 2016)

Imaculata said:


> But what was the point? Why name the fuel that is used by the Death Star? Why did we need to know where the Empire was getting the fuel? Why did Jyn happen to have a necklace of a Khyber Crystal around her neck? You'd think all this would be leading up to something. But it didn't.



Jyn's father was drafted because he's an expert in Kyber crystals - his lab on Eadu is named as a Kyber Research Facility. There's also a line in the movie that "The strongest stars have a heart of Kyber". If that's a literal truth rather than just figurative - if Kyber crystals are forged in the heart of stars - then Kyber crystals are literally stardust, and thus the necklace that Galen gave to Jyn as a keepsake is a visual reference to his pet name for her, which does play an important part in the movie.

Ultimately, though, it doesn't need to lead anywhere. It's a keepsake, the one physical reminder of her family she has left. Why do you need it to be something more than that?


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## trappedslider (Dec 18, 2016)

Imaculata said:


> And I can sometimes tell when a scene was hastily changed by the studio (such as Jyn pulling out her blaster at the Tie Fighter that is now cut from the movie). That is indefensible.




you know there's a trope for that Missing Trailer Scene and the way you go on, feels like it's only this movie that has done it.


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## Hand of Evil (Dec 19, 2016)

I enjoyed it, great movie.    Kyber crystals = dilithium crystals


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## Imaculata (Dec 19, 2016)

trappedslider said:


> you know there's a trope for that Missing Trailer Scene and the way you go on, feels like it's only this movie that has done it.




My issue is not with a trailer scene that is now missing. My issue is with the main character responding to something that is not in the movie. My issue is with a sloppy edit, where Jyn now is clearly responding to something that was removed from the movie. That is hasty editing, and bad film making.


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## Istbor (Dec 19, 2016)

I will wait for the Imaculata cut then.  Then I will make my final judgement.


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## wicked cool (Dec 19, 2016)

Posted this in the other star wars thread

would say it was good and there a few moments where its really good but I think Force awakens is still better.

 why
 1) Honestly there isn't 1 character in rogue one that holds a candle to returning or even new characters in FA. I wanted and maybe my expectactions were unrealistic. I wanted rogue one to be the Force 10 of Navarone of this generation. I wanted to care more for each character and I blame the director for this. 5-10 minutes for character development would have helped. Forest Whitaker and the pilot needed much more depth 

 2) I thought the beginning of Rogue 1 dragged at times (yes last 40 it makes up for it) 

 3) Really don't feel characters have that much emotion in it as well. I'm going to compare it to similar movies and compare emotions (FOTR-Sean Bean way more emotional scene, alien 2 Ripley vs queen, Dutch vs predator after his companions gunned down insert that type of movie). these are classic movies but in most cases not A+ acting movies. you feel the tension and want to jump into the scene to help etc. FA has that somewhat compared to rogue 1

 3) for a casual fan I would choose force awakens. Rogue 1 has a lot of fan service for the hard core fans including rebels tv show. I've had to explain to a bunch of people why Rogue 1 is out instead of the sequel to FA.

 The problem with FA is the big bad is so lackluster compared to any sith wannabee or really any bad guy in any movie. For the most part these last 2 movies have dropped the ball on adding new bad guys to hate (jury is out on Snoke)


----------



## Sammael (Dec 19, 2016)

I really enjoyed Rogue One, even though the trailers did absolutely nothing for me. 

I enjoyed seeing Grand Moff Tarkin on the screen, CGI or not.
I enjoyed Vader's violent rampage at the end, reminded me that he was a tangible threat... and also reminded me of Anakin's rampages at the end of RotS. 
I liked seeing the darker aspects of the Rebellion. 
I enjoyed a proper space battle where I could actually tell what was going on. 
I liked how they tied in everything neatly into ANH and didn't go overboard with references and easter eggs.
I *really* liked the ending. 

About the only scene I didn't like was Vader and Krennic's exchange on Mustafar, it felt forced and cartoonish. 

Saw needed more screen time and character development.


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## Blue (Dec 19, 2016)

Wolf72 said:


> VII was way to fast for me (again loved it).
> 
> I showed my students the originals (digitally remastered on VHS, Han shoots Greedo with no return fire!) they said they were boring and took to long ... wanted to draw my own lightsaber and go Anakin on them!




Same with my kids.  The first 30 minutes of A New Hope turned them off Star Wards because of how slow it was to them.  And they weren't particularly young when I showed it to them.

Of course they belongto a generation where a half hour (22 minute) cartoon is two 15 minutes (11 minute) cartoons that pack in what we used to watch for the entire time.  They expect a much faster pace.


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## innerdude (Dec 19, 2016)

4.5 out of 5 stars for me. While, as noted, the editing was uneven in parts, I thought the pacing was actually quite good overall, the acting ranged from good to superb, and the payoff in the end was absolutely worth the journey. 

The biggest impact for me going forward is that Rogue One COMPLETELY changes the tenor of the Rebel Alliance going forward. In Episode IV, V, and VI, I never had the sense that the Alliance was really all that bad off. Rogue One makes it abundantly clear just how fragile, hanging-by-a-thread the Alliance was. 

I'm eagerly awaiting my next chance to see this in theaters again. If Empire Strikes Back is #1 on my "Favorite Star Wars Movie" list, Rogue One is #1a.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 19, 2016)

I liked it better then The Force Awakens, because its story felt different from the previous movies, and not like a rehash.

I was actually wondering if anyone would survive the movie, and kinda expected that they'd leave the room open for at least the two main characters to return. Well, I suppose I did not see their bodies (or force ghosts). But I take them as dead for now. 

And the nostalgia for all the old ship models and costumes is also there.



trappedslider said:


> Well, you know the SW fandom is one of the poster children for "Unpleaseable fan base"




Excuse me, are you confusing Star Trek with Star Wars?


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## MarkB (Dec 19, 2016)

innerdude said:


> The biggest impact for me going forward is that Rogue One COMPLETELY changes the tenor of the Rebel Alliance going forward. In Episode IV, V, and VI, I never had the sense that the Alliance was really all that bad off. Rogue One makes it abundantly clear just how fragile, hanging-by-a-thread the Alliance was.




It also shows how much the Empire were scrambling to keep up with events as well. Yes, the Death Star was fully complete, and had achieved a total of two low-power test firings and one unofficial shakedown cruise, but that was literally just hours - minutes? - prior to the opening of A New Hope, as the Imperial fleet pursued multiple escaping Rebel vessels that might have received the plans. No wonder the Death Star wasn't sufficiently well supplied to field more than a handful of TIE Fighters at the Battle of Yavin - the Empire must surely have been intending a rather less hasty deployment than the one the Rebels pressed them into.


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## trappedslider (Dec 20, 2016)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Excuse me, are you confusing Star Trek with Star Wars?




No, have you not read this?


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## Charles Rampant (Dec 21, 2016)

I just saw this last night. Wonderful film. I'm not really one for ranking stuff, but I'll say that I consider this around as good as IV, V, and VII. The tone was really great, serving as a 'darkest moment before the dawn of a new hope' - I loved moments like Jyn saying, "May the Force be with us" to the low cheer from the troops (and Donnie Chen's character smiling), the bravery of men and women in a desperate, doomed battle, and the irony of Krennic getting to look down the barrel of his own gun. It retrospectively made the events of the original trilogy that much more desperate - we now know just how much was sacrificed so that the farm boy could turn off his targeting computer - and included enough nods to the prequels and the TV shows (that I've not seen) to serve as a good bridge between the two. Of course, the excessively shiny prequel technology remains a binder, but that isn't going away short of re-filming the entire prequel trilogy - which I wouldn't put past Disney. The characters had real presence and personality to me, and I felt every death as it came, especially since they were all so well acted. The capstone to it all was the horrific but exhiliarating corridor scene, with the rebel troops fighting and dying just for a _chance_ that the plans could make it out. The first scene with Vader felt a bit unnecessary, but that one was really excellent to me - and now we know that Leia truly had brass balls, to go and smart-talk Vader the day after he nearly cut his way onto her ship. Also, her line there is now hilarious - "This is a diplomatic ship!", to which Vader clearly should have replied, "Senator, I just saw your ship detach from a Rebellion frigate _in the middle of a warzone_."

I understand that Disney viewed this film as an experiment - do something Star Wars but not about the Skywalkers, see whether people are interested in just general stories in the universe. Since it is making crazy money, it seems safe to assume that we'll get other spinoff stories; I'm hoping that they stay away from other 'gapfilling' exercises (Young Han! Young Lando! What happened between II and III!) but instead branch outwards.


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## wicked cool (Dec 21, 2016)

Appears they cut a lot based on trailers. Go watch the trailer and there's 1 obvious scene that doesn't happen in movie

One question for the people who compare it to 4-6. Maybe its my age/age of when I saw it. Did anyone who saw rogue 1 have any emotional attachment to the characters. Big spoiler for 6 but when Yoda died my wife literally shed a tear (remakes that came out in theaters as she didn't see them as a kid). I normally don't argue about peoples views as the special effects/battles in rogue 1 are very good.


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## MarkB (Dec 21, 2016)

Charles Rampant said:


> The first scene with Vader felt a bit unnecessary, but that one was really excellent to me - and now we know that Leia truly had brass balls, to go and smart-talk Vader the day after he nearly cut his way onto her ship. Also, her line there is now hilarious - "This is a diplomatic ship!", to which Vader clearly should have replied, "Senator, I just saw your ship detach from a Rebellion frigate _in the middle of a warzone_."




"That was aggressive negotiations."



> I understand that Disney viewed this film as an experiment - do something Star Wars but not about the Skywalkers, see whether people are interested in just general stories in the universe. Since it is making crazy money, it seems safe to assume that we'll get other spinoff stories; I'm hoping that they stay away from other 'gapfilling' exercises (Young Han! Young Lando! What happened between II and III!) but instead branch outwards.




Too late.


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## Morrus (Dec 21, 2016)

Just about to watch it for a second time!


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## Dioltach (Dec 21, 2016)

Imaculata said:


> This movie is probably going to leave  fans divided.




You were right, [MENTION=6801286]Imaculata[/MENTION]: some fans hate the movie (you), some love it (everyone else).


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## wicked cool (Dec 21, 2016)

Just read the first post and wow I agree almost 100% with Imaculata. My fault as I jumped in 7 pages later.  I'd like to for someone to prove most of those points as inaccurate (sorry never noticed music).  I will watch it again but im not rushing out to see it. 

I think the studio bailed out the director based on what should have happened. 

I'm also not sure why Vader didn't have a more prominent role in the movie. More vader (the legend of vader) is what the fans really want and more the most part we have been teased on this.His part in the movie is probably 1 of the greatest parts of the movie and its basically less than a minute

If someone who loves this movie can u explain/hide it in spoilers why old Forest Whitaker does what he does. Around that section of the movie its a complete mess


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## Morrus (Dec 21, 2016)

Wow. Second viewing I loved it even more. I started noticing and appreciating the detail. 


Sent from my iPhone using EN World mobile app


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## Ancalagon (Dec 21, 2016)

edit: WARNING:  I can't seem to make the spoiler tags work.  beware!

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.




wicked cool said:


> I think the studio bailed out the director based on what should have happened.



Well... from what I have read, the director was going for [spoilers] the "miraculous escape" thing because he assumed that Disney would never allow the way it ended. [/spoilers].  But to his surprised they let him go ahead with the darker version




> If someone who loves this movie can u explain/hide it in spoilers why old Forest Whitaker does what he does. Around that section of the movie its a complete mess




It could be better, definitely.


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## MarkB (Dec 22, 2016)

wicked cool said:


> I'm also not sure why Vader didn't have a more prominent role in the movie. More vader (the legend of vader) is what the fans really want and more the most part we have been teased on this.His part in the movie is probably 1 of the greatest parts of the movie and its basically less than a minute




For me the lack of Sith / Jedi / The Force in this movie was a huge selling point. Those things are all fundamental to Star Wars and I'd never want to jettison them, but it is so good to see a movie set in that universe which doesn't revolve around them.

Vader had just enough screen time. I could have happily done without his scene on Mustafar, but that scene did at least set up his interest in the project to justify his arrival in the final act.


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## ccs (Dec 22, 2016)

wicked cool said:


> One question for the people who compare it to 4-6. Maybe its my age/age of when I saw it. Did anyone who saw rogue 1 have any emotional attachment to the characters.




Nope, no attachment whatsoever.  But then I knew going in that this was a Dirty Dozen style movie.  I didn't expect any of the characters to live through it.  (well, other than anyone who was in IV+....) So I'm not really concerned about not caring.

Now what could be interesting is if (when) more of their stories _prior_ to R1 get revealed (be it in books/movies/animation/games/etc.)  There's just ALOT of SW stories that could be spun using them.  Jyn was supposed to have been the best fighter in what-his-names band at age 15 before he ditched her.  The Capt. said he's been fighting the Empire since he was 6!  A lot of potential.....


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## Morrus (Dec 22, 2016)

Ancalagon said:


> edit: WARNING:  I can't seem to make the spoiler tags work.  beware!





The thread is marked spoilers. No tags needed. They don't work on mobile devices, anyway.


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## Ancalagon (Dec 22, 2016)

From an extremely geeky (as in, this isn't how movies should be made) point of view, I was super pleased by how the cast was like a star wars saga party.  "This is the rogue, that's the scout, that's the force user, that's the heavy soldier, that's the droid" etc etc  



Morrus said:


> The thread is marked spoilers. No tags needed. They don't work on mobile devices, anyway.




Thanks!


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## vpuigdoller (Dec 22, 2016)

I watched it, I loved it.  Finally a star wars movie that actually feels like star wars to me in a long time.


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## wicked cool (Dec 22, 2016)

I agree that most of us knew going in that most likely none would survive however its fails compared to movies such as the Great Escape or predator where you feel the Camaraderie. I'm a big a star wars fan as the next and to be honest I was more shocked in what happened to the orc in Warcraft over anything in Rogue One.

Since its a spoiler section why are the people working for Saw Gerrera doing what they are doing. why did the pilot defect. How does Ponda baba (spelling) escape? Theres a lot of nothing built up into a great action scene which basically was reshot by Disney in the end. In the end/trailers we see all of them running on the beach. It never happens 

Its really disheartening to hear that people cant wait for books to explain it. That proves the director and backstory are thin at best. First star wars movie that has done that

Several things other than plot that have not been talked about

1) Shadow stormtroopers. Was very excited for these. Came away like I did in force awakens with the captain phasma. really disappointing as I expected them to be bad mofo's and they were nothing special. 

2) The imperial walkers. Cant understand why they were so weak  

3) who actually escaped from the final battle. did the big ships escape or did everyone die except the princess? arent a few of the pilots seen again in new hope?   

4) Jin brags about the big weakness and tarkin brings in vader to make sure none survive and yet there isn't any mention of a weakness on the imperial side? I might have to go back and watch New hope but im almost 100% positive that Tarkin is dismissive of the whole idea and yet we are talking only several weeks when it gets blown up? This is a giant WTF moment. I know that 1977 and 2016 are differences but clearly Tarkins knowledge in Rogue one should have been written out.

I want people to know that I'm  not a star wars hater or one of those people who normally don't think their ever wrong but I was not on the edge of my seat until the vader ship scene.  

My hat is to the director that comes in and from rumors ive heard adds the big space battle


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## Janx (Dec 22, 2016)

What's a Bothan?

Did I witness many of them dying to bring us this information?


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## wicked cool (Dec 22, 2016)

im taking this way too seriously but

At the beginning of A New Hope, Vader tells Leia "Several transmissions were beamed aboard THIS ship by rebel spies. I want to know what happened to those plans."


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## Morrus (Dec 22, 2016)

Janx said:


> What's a Bothan?
> 
> Did I witness many of them dying to bring us this information?




Wrong film. The Bothans brought the Emperor's travel plans in Return of the Jedi. Not Death Star plans, and not this Death Star.


Sent from my iPhone using EN World mobile app


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## Istbor (Dec 22, 2016)

wicked cool said:


> 1) Shadow stormtroopers. Was very excited for these. Came away like I did in force awakens with the captain phasma. really disappointing as I expected them to be bad mofo's and they were nothing special.
> 
> 2) The imperial walkers. Cant understand why they were so weak




Those storm troopers seemed to last quite long and cut through a good chunk of the rebel troops compared to the other troopers.  I think they were sufficiently fine.  Be glad we didn't have to see a Jedi or something cut through them like butter, I say. 

As far as the walkers, from what I remember from Rogue Squadron games, X-wings had higher powered blasters and torpedoes that could breach that armor, while say the snow speeders on Hoth were not similarly equipped.  While this could all be hand waving for the game and movie being different in what it wants to present, I am not certain what the cannon truly is on this.  (At work so looking that up would send me down a spiraling hole of Star Wars lore).


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## Janx (Dec 22, 2016)

Morrus said:


> Wrong film. The Bothans brought the Emperor's travel plans in Return of the Jedi. Not Death Star plans, and not this Death Star.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using EN World mobile app




That explains it.  Thanks!

I'm not a star wars fan, so the details get muddled.


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## MarkB (Dec 22, 2016)

wicked cool said:


> 1) Shadow stormtroopers. Was very excited for these. Came away like I did in force awakens with the captain phasma. really disappointing as I expected them to be bad mofo's and they were nothing special.



They were Krennic's personal bodyguard, and when he does let them off the leash in the final battle they inflict far more damage than the regular stormtroopers, taking out many rebels and keeping the rest pinned down, requiring Chirrut Îmwe to do his "I am one with the Force" self-sacrifice to reach the transmission lever.



> 3) who actually escaped from the final battle. did the big ships escape or did everyone die except the princess? arent a few of the pilots seen again in new hope?




It looked like about half the Rebel capital ships escaped before Vader's Star Destroyer jumped in and cut off their retreat. The only ones we know survive into A New Hope are the starfighter wing leaders.



> 4) Jin brags about the big weakness and tarkin brings in vader to make sure none survive and yet there isn't any mention of a weakness on the imperial side? I might have to go back and watch New hope but im almost 100% positive that Tarkin is dismissive of the whole idea and yet we are talking only several weeks when it gets blown up? This is a giant WTF moment. I know that 1977 and 2016 are differences but clearly Tarkins knowledge in Rogue one should have been written out.




Jyn brags about the weakness to Krennic, not Tarkin, and does so moments before Krennic's death. Tarkin knows that the Rebels have attempted to steal the Death Star plans, which could certainly prove problematic in the long run, but he knows nothing of Jyn's father having deliberately built a weakness into the station. Even the rebels don't know that for sure - all they know is that Jyn claimed to have seen a message from her father telling her about it.


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## Kramodlog (Dec 22, 2016)

Well that film was boring. Not terrible, but not good either. The motivational speeches were a real drag though. No one would be talking about this film if it weren't for the Star Wars logo.  

The troubling part is that these kinds of war films really promote suicide missions. ISIS will show that film even if it has two gay characters.


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## MoonSong (Dec 23, 2016)

I loved it, I loved it so much. I cannot stop crying... How can you not care about them? (And maybe I come from a less visual culture, because I didn't even notice the CGI people, perhaps ignorance is bliss?)



Wolf72 said:


> As much as the prequel trilogy gets slammed, I find lots of kids who love them.  Have to remember the target of audience of children.  I don't hate the prequels, but the originals are still the best.  VII was way to fast for me (again loved it).
> 
> I showed my students the originals (digitally remastered on VHS, Han shoots Greedo with no return fire!) they said they were boring and took to long ... wanted to draw my own lightsaber and go Anakin on them!




Of course age plays a huge role in this. My actual introduction to Star Wars was Episode I, back when it was first in theaters, it and Attack of the Clones sparked my interest into what was otherwise an old franchise with dated effects that had been spoiled to death. (My first Star Wars movie before that was The Eewoks) I also notice that for children born after the prequels all six movies are a coherent whole without distinction between old and new, and they love Star Wars all the same. 

As a contrast with [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] my list of Star Wars movies goes like this

V
III
R1
VI
I
VII
Eewoks
II
IV
Battle for Endor (Super bleak)


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## vpuigdoller (Dec 23, 2016)

MoonSong said:


> I loved it, I loved it so much. I cannot stop crying... How can you not care about them? (And maybe I come from a less visual culture, because I didn't even notice the CGI people, perhaps ignorance is bliss?)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I went with my gf to see it.  She didn't noticed the cgi either.


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## Imaculata (Dec 23, 2016)

MoonSong said:


> I loved it, I loved it so much. I cannot stop crying... How can you not care about them?




Because they made no effort to set up any of the characters. The only character that gets a bare bones introduction is Jyn. And even then I cared nothing for her character. She was very flat to me as a character, and there was no heart to any of it. It did not draw me in or make me care. The rest of the characters are just kind of thrown in, and bluntly named. "This is so-and-so, and he does this!". That is very poor writing. I don't even remember the names of most of the characters, and I just saw the movie.

Without looking it up, how many of the names do any of YOU remember?


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## Darkness (Dec 23, 2016)

Kramodlog said:


> ISIS will show that film even if it has two gay characters.



*No real-world politics or religion on these boards, please. For reference, the rules.

If you have any questions, PM me.

--Darkness,
EN World moderator*


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## fjw70 (Dec 23, 2016)

Imaculata said:


> Because they made no effort to set up any of the characters. The only character that gets a bare bones introduction is Jyn. And even then I cared nothing for her character. She was very flat to me as a character, and there was no heart to any of it. It did not draw me in or make me care. The rest of the characters are just kind of thrown in, and bluntly named. "This is so-and-so, and he does this!". That is very poor writing. I don't even remember the names of most of the characters, and I just saw the movie.
> 
> Without looking it up, how many of the names do any of YOU remember?




Jyn Erso 
Cassian Andor 
Ch--- Imwe (don't know the spelling of the first name)
Baze Malbus
Bohdi Rook
K2SO
Director Orson Krennic
Saw G (don't know how to spell the last name)

Off the top of my head.


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## Morrus (Dec 23, 2016)

Jyn Erso
Galen Erso
Orson Krennick
K2SO
Cassian Andor
Blaze Malnus
Saw Gerrera
Bodi Rook

OK, I don't recall Donnie Yen's character's name. Imwe something?

So, in answer to the question, must of them.


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## wicked cool (Dec 23, 2016)

I'm watching the OA right now and honestly I care more for the characters in that then I did in rogue 1. Nobody in this film will get a sniff for best actor or supporting actor and it only has slightly to do with scifi (we know based on GOT that a an actor can win for scifi/fantasy). Riz ahmed (Bodhi) is an upcoming great actor and this might go down as one of his lesser roles 

I'm going to compare this again to the band of brothers in predator as most of them die and yet the acting/directing is far superior for what is a horror/scifi movie that was what I expected from Rogue one-

Arnold -dutch
Carl weathers-Dillon
Eliidia Carillo-Anna
Bill duke-mac
Jesse Ventura-Blain
Sonny Landham-billy
Richard Chaves-Poncho

Back to Rogue 1-The only time the audiences cheered was when they saw some cameos while Force Awakens the ending got a standing applause.


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## Imaculata (Dec 23, 2016)

Morrus said:


> Jyn Erso
> Galen Erso
> Orson Krennick
> K2SO
> ...




That's a nice list....
...But were any of their last names even mentioned in the movie?

Further more, was Krennick called Orson Krennick in the movie? I don't remember that at all.


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## MarkB (Dec 23, 2016)

Imaculata said:


> That's a nice list....
> ...But were any of their last names even mentioned in the movie?




Yes.

Weren't you the one who complained in your initial review that all the characters got name-dropped shortly after they were introduced? Can't have it both ways.


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## Morrus (Dec 23, 2016)

Imaculata said:


> That's a nice list....
> ...But were any of their last names even mentioned in the movie?
> 
> Further more, was Krennick called Orson Krennick in the movie? I don't remember that at all.






MarkB said:


> Yes.
> 
> Weren't you the one who complained in your initial review that all the characters got name-dropped shortly after they were introduced? Can't have it both ways.




Yeah, guys, this isn't a campaign. We can state what we like or dislike without having to prove to each other that they're wrong to like or dislike something. Neither do we have to defend or likes or dislikes. Imaculata hated the movie; that's fine. I loved it; that's also fine.

I know I'm as guilty of it as the next guy. But I'm trying not to!


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## Imaculata (Dec 23, 2016)

Morrus said:


> Yeah, guys, this isn't a campaign. We can state what we like or dislike without having to prove to each other that they're wrong to like or dislike something. Neither do we have to defend or likes or dislikes. Imaculata hated the movie; that's fine. I loved it; that's also fine.
> 
> I know I'm as guilty of it as the next guy. But I'm trying not to!




And I think it is important to note that I did say there were things to like in the movie. I can understand why some people would like the movie. So this isn't some sort of battle. I'm just trying to understand why so many people seem so positive about a movie that I simply found very disappointing. Not just as a story, but also when it comes to basic film making.


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## Morrus (Dec 23, 2016)

Imaculata said:


> And I think it is important to note that I did say there were things to like in the movie. I can understand why some people would like the movie. So this isn't some sort of battle. I'm just trying to understand why so many people seem so positive about a movie that I simply found very disappointing. Not just as a story, but also when it comes to basic film making.




Art is subjective. It's different things to different people. Film making is an art form. 


Sent from my iPhone using EN World mobile app


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## Ryujin (Dec 23, 2016)

I quite enjoyed it. As far as the CGI goes, I seem to be particularly sensitive to the movements of the rest of the face while a CGI character is speaking. For this reason the CGI characters were obvious to me but the animation was smooth enough that I could put it aside in favour of the story.

To my mind, after seeing this movie, the best droid character in the Star Wars universe was made by The Empire and the best Jedi is not actually a Jedi.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Dec 24, 2016)

Yep, once again, for me at least, the droid character steals the movie.


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## Charles Rampant (Dec 24, 2016)

It's all about the nonchalant grenade tossing.


Sent from my iPhone using EN World mobile app


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## Eltab (Dec 24, 2016)

re: cameos
I haven't seen the movie yet.

Leia (young Leia) _should_ make a brief visit at the end: she has the disk with plans at the beginning of Movie IV.  Somebody gave it to her, sending it FedEx (pun completely intended) just won't get this job done.

Vader was more impressive when everybody else was scared of him, not when he clobbered all the enemies himself.  (And when he 'knows the future' and ducks aside from the falling ice ceiling on Hoth.)  He should be the threat behind Stormtrooper Leader saying "If you won't talk to _me_, you'll have a talk with _him_."

I don't see any pre-designed reason for R2-D2 or C-3PO to be in this movie.  They are part of the equipment aboard Leia's diplomatic transport, which shouldn't be here until the very end (with Leia).  In fact, there are very good reasons -he's a blabbermouth! - C-3PO should *not* be in this movie.


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## Morrus (Dec 24, 2016)

Eltab said:


> re: cameos
> I haven't seen the movie yet.
> 
> Leia (young Leia) _should_ make a brief visit at the end: she has the disk with plans at the beginning of Movie IV.  Somebody gave it to her, sending it FedEx (pun completely intended) just won't get this job done.
> ...




You know this a spoiler thread, right? 

Vader is more than a cameo, and they go "scary" with him.

Leia is exactly what you suggest.

Not having seen the movie, your premonitions are very accurate.


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## Argyle King (Dec 25, 2016)

It's difficult to explain how I felt coming away from the movie.  At various points, I wanted to like it, but I'm still not sure if I did.   I'm conflicted in my opinion.

They're were a lot of individual parts that I thought were really cool.  Some of the encounters would be interesting to play through in Edge of the Empire.  I plan to use them as inspiration.

Somehow, even though I liked individual parts, those parts weren't woven together in a way that made it easy for me to enjoy the whole.  The first 30 minutes were a bit of a mess.  It was a sobering moment of self-reflection which made me realize that I need to be more organized and have a clearer message when I introduce my own stories.  It motivated me to rethink how I do things both as a writer and as a GM for campaigns. 

Also, even by cliche Storm Trooper standards, the Empire seemed too incompetent to be believable.  "We have rifles, so let's move our whole squad into melee range of the guy hitting us with a stick."  To be fair, my own military training might unfairly color my perception of that situation.  I still think it was poorly choreographed though.  In a weird way, it hurt the credibility of the Rebels as a movement.

I understand the idea of staying true to genre and franchise expectations, but -in my opinion- things were pushed a little too far.  I feel that the borderline silliness of the Empire's incompetence undercut the serious moments of what could have otherwise been a heartfelt war story.  Maybe the time restraints of a movie made certain story decisions unavoidable, but that could have been made better by making the first 30 minutes more coherent and structured to set up later parts of the story. 

I don't want to come across as a hater.   I do not regret seeing the movie.   Like I said, I did enjoy many of the individual pieces and characters in a vacuum. All put together,  I'd venture to say that it's one of the weaker films in the franchise, and I'm not sure if I feel the price of a movie ticket was well spent.

For me,  the last scenes with Vader managed to be more engaging within 5-10 minutes than other characters and situations which were given over an hour.

For me, all of the hope and excitement that Force Awakens gave me when looking forward to more movies was brutally force choked into near oblivion by Rogue One.  The combination of being let down by both the recent Battlefront game and Rogue One has critically wounded my enthusiasm for future products.


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## Ryujin (Dec 25, 2016)

Eltab said:


> re: cameos
> I haven't seen the movie yet.
> 
> Leia (young Leia) _should_ make a brief visit at the end: she has the disk with plans at the beginning of Movie IV.  Somebody gave it to her, sending it FedEx (pun completely intended) just won't get this job done.
> ...




The very idea of Vader being scary, without ever having to demonstrate why people should be afraid of him, strikes me as rather absurd.


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## ccs (Dec 25, 2016)

Ryujin said:


> The very idea of Vader being scary, without ever having to demonstrate why people should be afraid of him, strikes me as rather absurd.




And yet there it is, right there in Episode IV.
Vader doesn't _do_ very much at all in that movie.  Not even when he & Obi-Wan have their lightsaber duel.  But yet we KNOW, right from his initial entrance, that this is one of the greatest movie villains of all time....  And all he did was walk through a hatch.


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## Ryujin (Dec 25, 2016)

ccs said:


> And yet there it is, right there in Episode IV.
> Vader doesn't _do_ very much at all in that movie.  Not even when he & Obi-Wan have their lightsaber duel.  But yet we KNOW, right from his initial entrance, that this is one of the greatest movie villains of all time....  And all he did was walk through a hatch.




Oh course *WE* know he's a badass villain, 'cause movie and voice of James Earl Jones. How do people in the Star Wars Universe know he's badass? Because he took a rebel cruiser virtually single handed.


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## Eltab (Dec 25, 2016)

Morrus said:


> You know this a spoiler thread, right?
> 
> Not having seen the movie, your premonitions are very accurate.



In reverse order,

Thank you.  Maybe I should offer my services to Disney / Lucasfilm as a scriptwriter?  It seems the Force is with me, even though I am untrained in its use...

I came looking to find out of the movie is good (or not), and why.  Movie tickets are expensive!  Better to find out before I unload myself of a day's pay.


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## Eltab (Dec 25, 2016)

Ryujin said:


> and voice of James Earl Jones



I liked the more mechanical voice in the original movie, over the more human voice in Empire.

OK, as a kid Anakin was a mechanical genius, always tinkering with his gear.  We see this in the prequels.
But as an adult he would want people to be afraid of / intimidated by him more than he wants them to notice his smooth vocal modulation.  I think (but Lucas's team disagreed, alas); Sith feed on fear, after all.


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## Ryujin (Dec 25, 2016)

Eltab said:


> I liked the more mechanical voice in the original movie, over the more human voice in Empire.
> 
> OK, as a kid Anakin was a mechanical genius, always tinkering with his gear.  We see this in the prequels.
> But as an adult he would want people to be afraid of / intimidated by him more than he wants them to notice his smooth vocal modulation.  I think (but Lucas's team disagreed, alas); Sith feed on fear, after all.




What are these "prequels" of which you speak?


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## tomBitonti (Dec 25, 2016)

I found it to rather middling.  There were a lot of interesting parts, but on the whole it doesn't come together very well.

The two main faults were, to me, very large dramatic inefficiency, and underdeveloped characters.

I thought that it had a decent story _idea_ at its core, but that it failed to realize that story.

One bit of dissonance was that the flaw was described to the rebels before they had the plans, but the flaw was discovered by analyzing the plans (in episode 4).

Another failure of the movie was to incompletely present the redemption of the two leads, by failing to show their failings strongly enough, then to fail to show the growth that brought them around.

I did think the rebel attack on the data vault was ludicrous.  But it was on par for Star Wars battles.

Thx!
TomB


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## PurpleDragonKnight (Dec 25, 2016)

Sorry late in the game... this movie was epic! audible gasp from the audience during that very last scene.  True movie magic!


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## Imaculata (Dec 25, 2016)

Johnny3D3D said:


> For me, all of the hope and excitement that Force Awakens gave me when looking forward to more movies was brutally force choked into near oblivion by Rogue One.  The combination of being let down by both the recent Battlefront game and Rogue One has critically wounded my enthusiasm for future products.




This is exactly how I feel as well. And I'm a huge Star Wars fan, and I wanted to like this so badly. There were many moments in this movie where I tried to forget the messy 40 mins opening of the movie and just enjoy myself, and then there would be a random cameo of the alien from the Tatooine cantina (why is he on this planet, and how did he escape the destruction later on?), or a random cameo of R2D2 and C3PO. If these characters serve no purpose to the plot, then what you have is just a random wink to the fans. But you shouldn't be constantly winking at the audience. As a filmmaker you need to tell a story as well, and make the audience care.


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## Water Bob (Dec 25, 2016)

I liked the film.  I liked it a lot.

I thought it was slow in the beginning, but it built.  It kept on building to the best battle ever recorded for a Star Wars movie.  

My order, from best to worst...


The Empire Strikes Back
A New Hope
The Force Awakens
Rogue One

Return of the Jedi

Revenge of the Sith
Attack of the Clones
The Phantom Menace


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## Ryujin (Dec 25, 2016)

tomBitonti said:


> I found it to rather middling.  There were a lot of interesting parts, but on the whole it doesn't come together very well.
> 
> The two main faults were, to me, very large dramatic inefficiency, and underdeveloped characters.
> 
> ...




The flaw was described to the rebels before they had the plans. The plans told them how to exploit it.


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## tomBitonti (Dec 26, 2016)

Ryujin said:


> The flaw was described to the rebels before they had the plans. The plans told them how to exploit it.




I can mostly roll with that.  But, from what I remember from seeing episode IV so many years ago, the presentation was more that the flaw was just discovered.  It's one of many small issues that detract from the movie.

Not saying that it wasn't enjoyable, but not nearly as good as episode VII, I thought.

Thx!
TomB


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## MarkB (Dec 26, 2016)

tomBitonti said:


> I can mostly roll with that.  But, from what I remember from seeing episode IV so many years ago, the presentation was more that the flaw was just discovered.




Bear in mind that it's only Jyn who actually knows there is a flaw. The Rebels basically just had to hope that she was telling the truth about her father's message, and that they could find it in time.

Honestly, one thing that always slightly bugged me about Episode IV was that the Rebels were able to analyse the plans to a giant space station in however-many hours they had between arriving on Yavin IV and the Death Star following them, find an exploitable weakness that the Empire had completely missed, and formulate an attack plan to exploit it. Rogue One actually shores up that plot hole by showing us that they didn't have to trawl through the entire schematic in that time - they were looking for a fairly specific exploit.


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## Hussar (Dec 26, 2016)

Loved it. 

This was a good movie not just a good Star Wars movie. Far, FAR more mature than previous SW movies. Me and my girls were just blown away. 

Instead of pure white hats fighting black hats, we get a very nuanced depiction of the alliance and the rebels. No one is on the side of angels. The part where Jin says it's easy to walk away if you never look up is such a powerful line. 

I'd LOVE to see a directors cut of this too. 

And making Vader properly terrifying is just icing. I hope they borrow from the recent Vader comics to make a movie.


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## Erekose (Dec 26, 2016)

Liked it rather than loved it - easily the best of the new films (and by new I mean anything after the original trilogy). Didn't particularly like the CGI actors (although the CGI was very good). As others have said, I think if they'd used broadly similar actors I'd have accepted them more easily. Leia at the end was almost "showing off" as they could've used lighting/just shooting from behind/the usual in camera trickery for the same effect.

Don't know how to feel about the Vader final cameo (the first one was a bit redundant); on the one hand it was great to see how awesome Vader unleashed is, but on the other hand I have a lot of sympathy with the less is more view.

My order of preference would be:

V
VI (despite the ewoks, the Luke/Vader/Emperor scenes are epic)
IV
R1
VII
III
II
I


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## Ryujin (Dec 26, 2016)

tomBitonti said:


> I can mostly roll with that.  But, from what I remember from seeing episode IV so many years ago, the presentation was more that the flaw was just discovered.  It's one of many small issues that detract from the movie.
> 
> Not saying that it wasn't enjoyable, but not nearly as good as episode VII, I thought.
> 
> ...




For me, it's a rather different thing. "Rogue One" fills in plot holes I saw in the original movie. It's the prequel that the original movies deserved. For me it's the second movie in my list of four (I don't consider the prequels worth counting), behind only "The Empire Strikes Back."


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## Argyle King (Dec 26, 2016)

Further thoughts...

The more I try to convince myself that I liked the movie, the more I start to feel like I didn't.  There are just too many things about the movie which bug me.  I think it creates more plot holes than it fixes.  (Maybe not holes exactly; perhaps plot windows is more accurate.)  The main character wasn't really that interesting, and she seemed less like a character and more like than a plot device to drive forward a plot that really wasn't that strong to begin with.

What do I mean?

The whole point behind the character existing or having anything to do with the story seems to rest on the fact that she's connected to other characters.  Her dad is building the Death Star, and the guy who raised her is in charge of a militant group who has possession of a pilot.  Beyond that, I'm not sure there is a reason for the character to be there, and, in many ways, I think the story would make more sense if it didn't hinge upon Jyn.

Galen Erso agrees to build a weapon of mass destruction based on some pretty flimsy motivations.  I can understanding wanting to protect your family, but you already witnessed your wife being shot right in front of you.  So why would you have any faith in the idea that your daughter would be sage even if you did build the Death Star?  

Furthermore, what are the chances that the Empire would even be able to find your daughter?  She seemed to have no problem flying under the radar from age 7-ish until about 30.  One on world, it's hard enough to find someone.  What are the chances she would be found in a galaxy far far away?  

With that in mind, it seems that Galen builds a weapon capable of killing everyone on a planet based on thin and somewhat convoluted reasoning.  ...and he does this for the railroaded reasoning of thinking that maybe somehow he could build a flaw into the design and leak that design to an enemy force.  So, it seems reasonable that his daughter might be captured in light of astronomical odds, but somehow the idea of some random pilot safely carrying the information to the murderous and unhinged leader of a militant rebel group and surviving all while avoiding the same Empire which would capture Jyn seems reasonable?  I'm willing to ignore a lot of things in movie plots for the same of cinematic enjoyment, but the whole story of Galen and Jyn asks me to ignore a lot of things for the narrative to make sense, and, even then, it's a thin and flimsy motivation for a character.

I don't think Rogue One was a very good Star Wars movie.  I do not believe it was a very good war movie either.  The combat scenes are too often choreographed in a way which make absolutely no sense in terms of combat or tactics.  Even if I try to consider that sacrifices were made to maintain genre and SW franchise expectations, it still doesn't make any sense.

"Hey, we're a whole squad of Storm Troopers.  There's one guy with a stick in the middle of a street.  We could shoot him, but, instead, we'll all walk together until we're within melee range and get beat down with a stick."  

Don't get me wrong, I thought the blind pseudo-Jedi monk was a cool character.  However, the scenes were constructed in such a way that they did more to showcase how stupid and useless Storm Trooper training must be rather than being constructed in such a way that they allowed the character to be cool.  Having the Empire be so lackluster and pathetic manages to undercut how I perceive the skill of the Rebels.  It came across as a movie which was maybe made for an adult audience when the themes of war were explored, but then the film was given the logical sensibilities of a cartoon or kids' movie.  Had it been done well, the film would have adequately served both target audiences.  As it stands, my opinion is that it falls far short of doing either particularly well.  

The space battle was passable with a few near-awesome moments.  Unfortunately, I feel that those possibly awesome moments were somewhat lost in the somewhat muddled and convoluted reasoning for the action.  I understood why the battle was taking place.  I understood why the ground battle was important.  I understood all of the individual pieces.  I do not feel the individual pieces were woven together in a very coherent combat narrative.  Really, that's how a feel about the movie as a whole.  

There are a lot of elements in the movie that I think were really cool.  K2-S0 was a well rounded character, and it was nice to see a droid with a different role than what we've seen previously.  He did a good job of combining Star Wars style Droid Comedy with the big beefy pilot's sidekick role.  

As mentioned already, Chirrut Imwe (blind pseudo-Jedi monk) was an interesting character also.  It was a nice embodiment of what it might be like to still follow a faith which was on the losing end of a conflict.  I also liked that it was left ambiguous as to whether or not the Force was helping him.  Though, with that in mind, I'm again reminded why I was upset at how incompetent The Empire is made to look.  As I'm watching the movie, part of my mind wants to buy into the idea that I'm not sure if he's using the Force, but then part of my brain kicks in and says "nah, these are just some of the worst Storm Troopers ever."

Baze Malbus was a cool character as well.  I'm not sure if this was the intent, but he seemed as though he had stepped right out of 40K (or Edge of The Empire) and into a Star Wars movie.  His parts in movie were well constructed for the most part.

I could go on and one, but the point is the same.  There are a lot of parts to the movie that I liked.  Unfortunately, I didn't like the movie as a whole.  Instead of this movie, I think Rogue One would have been far better as episodes of a mini series which introduced each character, gave them time to shine, and then wove them together into a better and more coherent story.  I also think that eliminating the character of Jyn Erso and having a more straightforward narrative to explain the importance of Galen Erso would be better.

In hindsight, while I loved seeing Vader in action, I feel like maybe that could have been done better too.  Vader is a good villain because he's charismatic, menacing, and foreboding.  He's like the embodiment of a Hitchcock Horror film.  Instead of building that throughout the movie and climaxing with action, Rogue One decides to throw in a seemingly pointless scene of Vader earlier in the movie as an unnecessary wink to the audience and then hopes to use the last sequence in the film to make me forget that I wasn't really into the rest of the movie.  The last sequence is actually pretty cool, but the reason why it does such a great job of making me forget the rest of the movie is because the rest of the movie fails to make an impression and is easily forgettable.     

I tried really hard to like the movie, but I don't think that I do.  Rogue One is the Suicide Squad of the Star Wars movie franchise.  While I believe that Rogue One is a better movie than Suicide Squad, I also believe that Rogue One fails for a lot of the same reasons.  It has a lot of nods to the fans and the fictional world in which it exists, but it doesn't deliver.  I don't hate it, but it's disappointing and a little bit depressing when I think about what it could have been when I look at the individual parts compared to what it actually was as a whole when those parts were put together.  

In the end, it's hard to fathom that 40 year old movies made using muppets and 1970s special effects manage to feel more believable than what came out of Rogue One's 200 Million Dollar Budget.


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## Ryujin (Dec 26, 2016)

If we're going to start talking about "weak plots", then I'm afraid the whole series will suffer


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## pathfinderq1 (Dec 26, 2016)

I enjoyed it, overall, but really, my overwhelming thought was: Gee, SOMEBODY's Star Wars campaign just ended in a TPK!


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 26, 2016)

The reason the Storm Troopers approach the blind man instead of outright shooting him at range is because he's a blind man.  He can't be a threat, just  nuisance, they probably think. (Especially since the Jedi are gone anyway). A lot of his effectiveness in combat also relies in making enemies basically do his work for him. His stick might hurt, but is not a threat on its own against the armored troopers.

The first scene with Vader seemed a bit superflous, but I think it has a narrative role at least - it mirrors the different locations the heroes visit once the "current" action begins. Too many movies (and especially Force Awakens seemed to be so) seem to have a lot of "total accidental timining that works well for the story". But here, each of the sides have reasons to do certain things, and there is basically a fixed starting point for all of them before they can't actually do what they do in the story - only once the defection of the Imperial Pilot with the message is revealed, both sides start springing into action. 
(Of course, FTL travel times are still at the speed of the plot.)



I liked the characters overall, and I think they did establish was they were capable and who they were reasonably well. 
Jyn is described as a good fighter (one of Gerrera's best) way after they already established her abilities on screen already - her fight during her escape attempt, the fight on Jedah, and her ability to steal a weapon while basically in Rebel captivity.  And we also see that she can care about some things - like when she tried to rescue that girl. (Tried because I doubt her mother went off-world with the kid before the Death Star did his job.)
Cassian doesn't get as much chance to establish himself, but we still get to see some of it - when he kills his informant to keep him from being captured, the dirty deeds he did for the Rebellion were established.


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## Argyle King (Dec 26, 2016)

Ryujin said:


> If we're going to start talking about "weak plots", then I'm afraid the whole series will suffer




That's a fair point.  Still, even by those standards, it was a little hard to buy.  The lack of structure in the first 30 minutes or so of the movie didn't help either.  While a lot of the locations looked cool, they served no purpose, and they were done so quickly that they felt more like excuses to justify needing a big budget than they felt like they added anything to the story.



Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> The reason the Storm Troopers approach the blind man instead of outright shooting him at range is because he's a blind man.  He can't be a threat, just  nuisance, they probably think. (Especially since the Jedi are gone anyway). A lot of his effectiveness in combat also relies in making enemies basically do his work for him. His stick might hurt, but is not a threat on its own against the armored troopers.
> 
> The first scene with Vader seemed a bit superflous, but I think it has a narrative role at least - it mirrors the different locations the heroes visit once the "current" action begins. Too many movies (and especially Force Awakens seemed to be so) seem to have a lot of "total accidental timining that works well for the story". But here, each of the sides have reasons to do certain things, and there is basically a fixed starting point for all of them before they can't actually do what they do in the story - only once the defection of the Imperial Pilot with the message is revealed, both sides start springing into action.
> (Of course, FTL travel times are still at the speed of the plot.)
> ...




I'll buy that they'd maybe walk toward him the first time or two.  But then to just stand there and get beat down?  I'm aware that similar tropes happen in kung-fu movies (and even some sci-fi movies), but I felt that it was poorly choreographed. For me personally, it did more to hurt the movie and the character than it helped.  To be fair, it's likely that my own military experience in similar situations hurt some of my ability to ignore certain things.

Jyn being a good fighter is not in doubt.  It's simply hard (for me) to understand why she's necessary as a character.  She didn't appear to have any more information than what others already had, and I'm inclined to believe that -especially since everyone got killed anyway- the time devoted to her would have been better spent on other parts of the story.  

She's only relevant because of the thin connection that she has to the motivations of two other characters.   

If the intent was to aim for a war movie feel, I think the story would have been better served by extracting the information from the pilot and delving into the dark and dirty details of the Rebels needing to embrace some of their less desirable elements.  

If the intent was to aim for a Star Wars movie feel, I think using the movie to illustrate and highlight a few parts of the setting and universe rather than the cinematic speed-dating that seemed to be done with people, places, things, and droids.  

Sigh... I suppose I should drop it.  I respect the right of others to like the movie.  It certainly wouldn't be the first time that I was in the minority.  I didn't think the third Hobbit movie was particularly good either (I'd actually say that I enjoyed Rogue One more.)  It just blows my mind a little when I see a commercial on tv which exclaims "Best Star Wars movie ever!"  I am struggling to comprehend whether or not I was watching the same movie.


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## ccs (Dec 27, 2016)

Johnny3D3D said:


> It just blows my mind a little when I see a commercial on tv which exclaims "Best Star Wars movie ever!"  I am struggling to comprehend whether or not I was watching the same movie.




Why?  It's just marketing hype.  They'll say that about any SW, Transformers, super-hero, etc movie.  In fact, any movie....


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## tomBitonti (Dec 27, 2016)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> And we also see that she can care about some things - like when she tried to rescue that girl. (Tried because I doubt her mother went off-world with the kid before the Death Star did his job.)




Additional text omitted.

This is an example, to me, of how the story doesn't fit together.  There is a very strong dramatic irony here: Jyn saving the girl, but have that undone by the Empire's reprisal, which destroys the entire town.  There is a huge opportunity here to leverage the irony to amplify the loss, and to bring out the very real cost of the rebellion's activities.  While trying to overthrow the Empire, many many innocent lives are lost as a consequence.

The movie makes no attempt to make use of this, at least, none that I can tell.  It does do a good job with the slow motion explosion approaching the rebel base, but that's about it.  There could have been a moment with Jyn: "Wait, that girl."  Then another rebel, "Yes, and the whole town."  Jyn, "But how can you do this?  How can we do this?  *We* caused this to happen."  A rebel: "Millions are dying under the Empire's oppression every day.  We must make sacrifices."  Jyn: Sits down tearfully as she looks out the window at the dust and the explosion.

Thx!

TomB


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## MarkB (Dec 27, 2016)

tomBitonti said:


> Additional text omitted.
> 
> This is an example, to me, of how the story doesn't fit together.  There is a very strong dramatic irony here: Jyn saving the girl, but have that undone by the Empire's reprisal, which destroys the entire town.  There is a huge opportunity here to leverage the irony to amplify the loss, and to bring out the very real cost of the rebellion's activities.  While trying to overthrow the Empire, many many innocent lives are lost as a consequence.
> 
> The movie makes no attempt to make use of this, at least, none that I can tell.  It does do a good job with the slow motion explosion approaching the rebel base, but that's about it.  There could have been a moment with Jyn: "Wait, that girl."  Then another rebel, "Yes, and the whole town."  Jyn, "But how can you do this?  How can we do this?  *We* caused this to happen."  A rebel: "Millions are dying under the Empire's oppression every day.  We must make sacrifices."  Jyn: Sits down tearfully as she looks out the window at the dust and the explosion.




How did they cause it to happen? The Empire didn't blow up the town to kill Jyn's team, they didn't even know they were there. They did so to destroy Saw Gerrara's group, which had already been denounced by the Alliance as extremists.

And what you want spelled out, I thought the movie conveyed amply. This movie did far more to show the darker, grimmer side of the Rebels, both in their own tactics and in the oppression they faced, than any other Star Wars fiction I've encountered.


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## tomBitonti (Dec 27, 2016)

MarkB said:


> How did they cause it to happen? The Empire didn't blow up the town to kill Jyn's team, they didn't even know they were there. They did so to destroy Saw Gerrara's group, which had already been denounced by the Alliance as extremists.
> 
> And what you want spelled out, I thought the movie conveyed amply. This movie did far more to show the darker, grimmer side of the Rebels, both in their own tactics and in the oppression they faced, than any other Star Wars fiction I've encountered.




What isn't shown is the effect on the characters.  We the audience gasp in horror at the deaths.  How does it impact the characters?  Does Jyn grieve over the death of the little girl that she tried to save?  Do the characters internalize blame, deservedly or not?  Are any pushed to the edge of a breakdown?

Thx!
TomB


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## Water Bob (Dec 27, 2016)

Saw it again tonight, this time in 3D.  I liked it even more the second time around!


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## wicked cool (Dec 27, 2016)

Saw a Facebook post/link where it says Lucas has agreed to Direct the sequel to Rogue One!!!!!! 
I'm not kidding
You say that's impossible and absurd

you would be wrong


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## RedSiegfried (Dec 27, 2016)

Saw it last Thursday and I liked it a lot.  I liked it better than TFA and I'm looking forward to a 2nd viewing so I can solidify my thoughts on it more.  But first impressions were great.  I was prepared to be unimpressed but thankfully that didn't happen.


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## Istbor (Dec 27, 2016)

wicked cool said:


> Saw a Facebook post/link where it says Lucas has agreed to Direct the sequel to Rogue One!!!!!!
> I'm not kidding
> You say that's impossible and absurd
> 
> you would be wrong




No, I totally believe you would find something like that on Facebook. 

That movie has already been made AND he did direct it. It is called A New Hope.


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## Morrus (Dec 27, 2016)

Istbor said:


> No, I totally believe you would find something like that on Facebook.
> 
> That movie has already been made AND he did direct it. It is called A New Hope.




That's the joke.


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## Jester David (Dec 29, 2016)

Saw. Quite liked it. 
Enjoyed it as a first attempt to tell a movie in the Star Wars universe that wasn't the standard tale. The first steps towards different types of Star Wars movie. It was still safe: familiar characters and era, lots of callbacks, lots of action, and the standard space battle. But it's the test. Dipping the toe into the universe.

I liked the war movie aspect. And loved the fate of the characters. How not everyone survived despite the odds, to ensue sequels. 

The amount of callbacks and plot hole filling was a bit much. I don't think we needed a reason why the Death Star has a weakness (design flaws happen). Or why Red Squadron had "Red Five" free for Luke. Bumping into Mr. "Death Sentance x12" is the kind of silly Easter Egg that was annoying in the prequels. The standard "this movie is set before!!!!!" moment that just causes eye rolling. It just makes the Star Wars universe, which is supposedly to be vast, seem small. 

Now the nerdy compliant. Saw Gerrera was in Clone Wars 20 years before ANH. And he looked like a teenager. 25 at most. So in this movie he must be around 45. Maybe 60. He has aged terribly...

That the idea the plans were to big to easily transmit is a nice plot point, as you do wonder why they're not sent from Leia's ship at the beginning of ANH or the Falcon.

Having seen it yesterday, mere hours after the news of Carrie Fischer, that last seen was a punch to the gut. She looked fine. Tarkin was more off. Too obviously CG. They should have had the camera a little farther back and had fewer close ups. Or had one of the scenes be a hologram (and thus lower Rez) so they could spend more time on the later appearances.


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## Water Bob (Dec 29, 2016)

I didn't watch the Clone Wars.  Was Saw a character on that show?

He became quite a nut in Rogue One.  All that running from the Empire and staying off the grid has taken its toll on him.

"Did you come to kill ME?"

He was ready to just stop running.  He didn't have anything to live for anymore.  He was tired of running.

Interesting character.


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## Jester David (Dec 29, 2016)

Water Bob said:


> I didn't watch the Clone Wars.  Was Saw a character on that show?
> 
> He became quite a nut in Rogue One.  All that running from the Empire and staying off the grid has taken its toll on him.
> 
> ...



Saw appeared in 4 episodes as a member of a freedom fighting band being trained in attacking droids by Anakin Skywalker and his Padawan, Ashoka.
Not a huge character. Bringing him into the movie is actually a neat and obscure reference. 

And now he's also going to appear in Star Wars Rebels.


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## Water Bob (Dec 29, 2016)

Is Saw nuts in the Clone Wars, too?  Or, is that time wearing on him?


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## Jester David (Dec 29, 2016)

Water Bob said:


> Is Saw nuts in the Clone Wars, too?  Or, is that time wearing on him?




He was more aggressive/ impulsive. I can see him breaking with the regular Rebels. The nuts part likely comes from spending twenty years fighting, and trading one oppressive regime for another.


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## Ryujin (Dec 29, 2016)

Jester David said:


> He was more aggressive/ impulsive. I can see him breaking with the regular Rebels. The nuts part likely comes from spending twenty years fighting, and trading one oppressive regime for another.




Not to mention trading more flesh for metal.


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## Leatherhead (Dec 30, 2016)

Went out and saw the movie, finally. It was OK, but I don't think I will put it in my machete order view list though. Though if I could take out the last parts of the movie featuring Vader and cut them into the beginning of episode 4, that would be ideal.

The CGI didn't really bother me up until Leia was on screen, then it got really weird, though I suspect that had more to do with Carrie Fisher's recent passing. I knew the CGI was there, I suppose I am just more desensitized to it now.

It did, in fact, remind me more of someones re-accounting of an Star Wars RPG group than a movie. Partly because of the precariously assembled rag-tag crew, partly because they couldn't get any help from the big-name "NPCs", partly because there were some throw away plot points that went nowhere (like seriously, the mind-squid didn't have any impact on the story, wtf?), partly because the battles were the best parts. Though I have to say the "Who _are_ you?" scene on the top of the antenna array was great. Most though, I would say it comes down to the character's deaths not stinging, as if the characters themselves were purposely crafted in such a way as to minimize the impact of their inevitable demise. It felt like textbook murder-hobo character building. Fun and quirky, yet disposable.


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## Imaculata (Jan 5, 2017)

Leatherhead said:


> It did, in fact, remind me more of someones re-accounting of an Star Wars RPG group than a movie. Partly because of the precariously assembled rag-tag crew, partly because they couldn't get any help from the big-name "NPCs", partly because there were some throw away plot points that went nowhere (like seriously, the mind-squid didn't have any impact on the story, wtf?), partly because the battles were the best parts. Though I have to say the "Who _are_ you?" scene on the top of the antenna array was great. Most though, I would say it comes down to the character's deaths not stinging, as if the characters themselves were purposely crafted in such a way as to minimize the impact of their inevitable demise. It felt like textbook murder-hobo character building. Fun and quirky, yet disposable.




This was one of my biggest issues with the film. There are very few actual 'scenes' with the characters, where they talk to each other, and build them up. And it left them rather flat, and failed to make me care about them. The only character that got any development was Jyn, and all we got for her was a bare bones back story that was pretty cliche, even by Star Wars standards. But we didn't get any scenes with her to make us like her, or to explain who she is. 

What I feel she needed, was a scene like Han Solo got in the Cantina. A scene where we see her talk to other characters, and see her do something that defines her character. Likewise for the other characters. It also didn't help that almost all of the humor was given to KT-SO, leaving the other characters very humorless.

Compare this with a movie like Serenity, where even if you haven't seen the show Firefly, you are given enough scenes with each character to understand them. They all have a few funny lines, and scenes that define their character. They have scenes where they interact with each other. In Rogue One, it felt like they wanted to move as quickly as possible from one action scene to the next, leaving no room for character development. Without character development, the movie has no heart, and doesn't make me care about anything that happens.


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## Mallus (Jan 5, 2017)

Imaculata said:


> There was no reason for Krennic to visit him on "unspecified lava planet", other than to get choked and throw a Vader cameo in.



Just saw it, and loved it, more or less, but on this particular point...

... we can debate the overall necessity of the lava planet scene, but Krennic has a clear reason for going there. 

Krennic is trying to do an end-run around Tarkin, who had just moved in to take credit/command of the Death Star project after its first successful test. So Krennic zips off to the unnamed lava planet to go over Tarkin's head and plead his case directly to Vader.

Who is... unimpressed.

I think it's a pretty good scene because we get to see Krennic learn his place in the Empire the hard way. It also fits with the character's general type, i.e. the living embodiment of the banality of evil, a fascist project manager who can't deliver his deliverables on time because the real talent left the company.


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## Water Bob (Jan 5, 2017)

Morrus said:


> My ranking of SW movies now is probably:
> 
> V
> IV
> ...





You like The Empire Strikes Back so much that it occupies place #1 and place #4!


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## Imaculata (Jan 6, 2017)

Mallus said:


> I think it's a pretty good scene because we get to see Krennic learn his place in the Empire the hard way. It also fits with the character's general type, i.e. the living embodiment of the banality of evil, a fascist project manager who can't deliver his deliverables on time because the real talent left the company.




To me it felt like they just wanted another scene with Vader, and show off his lava castle. But it didn't really further the plot in my opinion.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jan 6, 2017)

Imaculata said:


> To me it felt like they just wanted another scene with Vader, and show off his lava castle. But it didn't really further the plot in my opinion.




As a Vader scene, it wasn't good, but it was well motivated by the character's interests, and it also mirrors the activities from the protagonist, who are for a while discussing what to do next, explaining why he is not immediately heading to the same location the protagonists are going to, and can be later to the place then him.


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## Ryujin (Jan 6, 2017)

I've been thinking some more about why I like "Rogue One" and have come to a conclusion. I like it largely for reasons of nostalgia, though not the ones you might expect. Sure, I enjoy stories based in the Star Wars universe, but I've never really been pulled into the cultural phenomenon that is Star Wars. This movie reminds me of the World War II movies I remember from my childhood, back in the late '60s and early '70s. The players aren't as much characters, as they're archetypes. The good guys win, but the cost is high. One in particular comes to mind, I think it was "Von Ryan's Express", in which the main character is shot in the back by Nazis while trying to jump onto a moving train where his fellow prisoners have already managed to get aboard.


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## Erekose (Jan 10, 2017)

Someone may have already mentioned this but it occurred to me the other day that there is an obvious sequel (of sorts) to Rogue One. A stand alone film set in between Episodes V and VI describing how the plans for the new Death Star were obtained.

It would be a much bleaker film, from Episode VI we know that, “Many Bothans died to bring us this information.”, and that the Emperor wanted the rebels to obtain them, ""It was I who allowed the alliance to know the location of the shield generator." and "Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design." 

I can imagine the film ending on a high (success for the rebels) undercut by a cameo with the Emperor before the credits!


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## Morrus (Jan 10, 2017)

Erekose said:


> Someone may have already mentioned this but it occurred to me the other day that there is an obvious sequel (of sorts) to Rogue One. A stand alone film set in between Episodes V and VI describing how the plans for the new Death Star were obtained.
> 
> It would be a much bleaker film, from Episode VI we know that, “Many Bothans died to bring us this information.”, and that the Emperor wanted the rebels to obtain them, ""It was I who allowed the alliance to know the location of the shield generator." and "Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design."
> 
> I can imagine the film ending on a high (success for the rebels) undercut by a cameo with the Emperor before the credits!




Actually, the Bothans died to obtain the Emperor's travel plans, not the new DS schematics.


Sent from my iPhone using EN World mobile app


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## Dioltach (Jan 10, 2017)

Is it officially confirmed anywhere what Bothans are? I know that they're implied to be a race, but what if they're just some form of cuddly animal? Perhaps Mon Mothma keeps one as a pet, but in some parts of the galaxy they're a delicacy and the Imperial officer who gave up the plans demanded a batch of them as a bribe.


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## Wednesday Boy (Jan 10, 2017)

Overall I enjoyed it despite having some issues with it.  



Imaculata said:


> They should have gone for a look alike with good make up effects, instead of uncanny valley.




I didn't like the CGI Tarkin or Leia.  I too would rather have had a look alike or limited CGI Tarkin to shadows and relections.



Istbor said:


> Honestly, the one of the weirdest things to me, while I was watching it, was the console up at the top of the tower.  Who would want to put that there? Then... I calmed down and thought about it for a moment, and realized, "you know what?  This is just how things are built in the Star Wars Universe".




Heh.  That gave me pause as well.  I think it would have worked better if they hacked into it or something up top but your explanation is spot on.



Ancalagon said:


> Part of me was amused how the "party" really looked like a Star-wars RPG party - the force user (but not jedi), the heavy soldier, the scout, the rogue, the droid...




Definitely!



Charles Rampant said:


> Also, her line there is now hilarious - "This is a diplomatic ship!", to which Vader clearly should have replied, "Senator, I just saw your ship detach from a Rebellion frigate _in the middle of a warzone_."




This part of the movie seemed off to me.  I haven't tried to figure out whether or not it fits but it felt to me like they were trying too hard to connect the movies and it would have made more sense if there was off-screen passing of the plans to Leia and Tantive IV.

It sounds morose but I really liked that everyone died.  I mean that's what life is, a series of down endings.  It would have felt too upbeat and cliched if any of them escaped.

I loved the droid.  ("Jyn.  I'll be there for you.  Cassian said I had to.")

I didn't think I'd like the blind force monk.  I thought that archetype would be too much like a kung fu character or Daredevil and wouldn't fit into the Star Wars universe well but I really enjoyed him.  I also liked his camaraderie with the guy with the big gun.  That definitely hearkened to an RPG duo to me.

It didn't best the original trilogy for me but I liked it better than The Force Awakens (primarily because I thought TFA's plot was weak).

One of my favorite parts about Rogue One is that it's inspired my gaming group, who has become defunct due to new babies, people moving away from the area, and other familial responsibilities, to attempt an online FFG Star Wars Rebels-inspired game!  Utinni!


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## MarkB (Jan 10, 2017)

Dioltach said:


> Is it officially confirmed anywhere what Bothans are?




In old-EU continuity, yes. They're major political players, and I believe were a playable race in Star Wars Saga Edition. Somewhat catfolk-like in appearance as I recall.

In new-EU continuity, I'm not so sure.


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## Jhaelen (Jan 11, 2017)

MarkB said:


> In old-EU continuity, yes. They're major political players, and I believe were a playable race in Star Wars Saga Edition. Somewhat catfolk-like in appearance as I recall.



I could have sworn I'd already seen a Bothan in one of the movies, but apparently I'm mistaken.

Bothans are a staple race in FFG's Star Wars RPG, already appearing in the very first source book, the 'Edge of the Empire Core Rulebook' as one of (only) eight playable races (the others being humans, droids, wookies, rodians, twi'lek, trandoshan, and gand). There's plenty of artwork featuring them, too.


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## Erekose (Jan 11, 2017)

Morrus said:


> Actually, the Bothans died to obtain the Emperor's travel plans, not the new DS schematics.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using EN World mobile app




But didn't that include there whereabouts of the new Death Star as well as how close to completion it was? I can't remember exactly but I would imagine the two were pretty interinked!


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## Morrus (Jan 11, 2017)

Erekose said:


> But didn't that include there whereabouts of the new Death Star as well as how close to completion it was? I can't remember exactly but I would imagine the two were pretty interinked!




No. They knew where it was. It the fact that the Emperor would be personally overseeing the completion that the Bothans discovered. 


Sent from my iPhone using EN World mobile app


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## Morrus (Jan 11, 2017)

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k_4_NNHRjb4[/video]


Sent from my iPhone using EN World mobile app


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## CapnZapp (Jan 12, 2017)

Dioltach said:


> Is it officially confirmed anywhere what Bothans are? I know that they're implied to be a race, but what if they're just some form of cuddly animal?



I don't think Manny Bothans would like it if you called him "cuddly".


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## MarkB (Jan 12, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> I don't think Manny Bothans would like it if you called him "cuddly".




What's he gonna do about it? He's dead.


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## RedSiegfried (Jan 12, 2017)

Bothans


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## Water Bob (Jan 13, 2017)

RedSiegfried said:


> Bothans
> 
> View attachment 79912




And, the real kicker here is that each of these, pictured, are dead.  Dead Bothans.  So many dead Bothans.  Bye-bye.


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## Dioltach (Jan 13, 2017)

Water Bob said:


> And, the real kicker here is that each of these, pictured, are dead.  Dead Bothans.  So many dead Bothans.  Bye-bye.




Well, duh! Imperial spycatcher must be the easiest job in the Galaxy: just spot the Bothan and have him shot. Unless the Emperor tells you to let one escape with some top secret information.


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## trappedslider (Jan 13, 2017)

Dioltach said:


> Well, duh! Imperial spycatcher must be the easiest job in the Galaxy: just spot the Bothan and have him shot. Unless the Emperor tells you to let one escape with some top secret information.




The bothan will still die.....


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## Dioltach (Jan 13, 2017)

Actually, I feel for the Bothans that don't want to be spies. "Sir, I have some suspicions about the new welder we hired for the Death Star project ..."


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## MarkB (Jan 13, 2017)

RedSiegfried said:


> Bothans
> 
> View attachment 79912




Wow, 2003 was a bad year to be a Bothan.


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## Water Bob (Jan 13, 2017)

MarkB said:


> Wow, 2003 was a bad year to be a Bothan.




That was during the Bothan skinhead movement.


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## RedSiegfried (Jan 13, 2017)

Must be some severe genetic engineering going on with the Bothans ala the OST Klingons and TNG Klingons.

Either that, or the entire race just decided they weren't into Universal horror Werewolf films anymore and decided to become furries.

Alternatively, maybe Bothans just have a lot of racial subsets within the species.  

Or maybe it's just purely the changing fashion of their hairstyles.

Or maybe I just need to stop rationalizing differences in the drawings of imaginary creatures.

Nah ...


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## trappedslider (Jan 13, 2017)

Now, i'm thinking Bothans must have the racial : Still dies at the end of campaign


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## Ryujin (Jan 13, 2017)

trappedslider said:


> Now, i'm thinking Bothans must have the racial : Still dies at the end of campaign




The only species in the Star Wars RPG that gets to play the Martyr card from the Torg RPG.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jan 16, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> The only species in the Star Wars RPG that gets to play the Martyr card from the Torg RPG.



Ah... Torg...


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jan 16, 2017)

A quirk of Mon Mothma's accent ... it was actually Manny Bothans, the famous Rebel agent, who died to set up the DS2 attack.


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## RedSiegfried (Jan 18, 2017)

I thought it was Man-E-Bothans, who a cousin of Man-E-Faces from Masters of the Universe, who coincidentally, is also a sort of spy-type character.


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