# Help me build my first Pathfinder character (fighter/rogue)



## buddhafrog (Mar 19, 2011)

I've only played 4e and am excited about joining my first Pathfinder game - but I'm feeling unsettled about my character.  I'd so much appreciate it if anyone could help me build my character so that I know I'm doing it right. (*I've found Pathfinder folks general love to help new players get acquainted, so thanks) 

I haven't had the time to explore how my character might advance through levels.  I *love* how Pathfinder lets you multiclass, but it also leaves me with so many options that I'm not too sure I'm doing it correctly.  Also b/c of this, it's hard for me to be able to see how my character might advance into a themed character and overcome some of his weakness at further levels.  I'm not too concerned about min/maxing but well... maybe I'm a little concerned about not maxing enough. 

This week (tomorrow March 19th) we will start at level 2 but I haven't had time to figure my character out (so I come her with my beggar cup out).  I have some leeway to change my character until tomorrow, after that, no changes:

1/2 Orc
Str 18, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8

*Lvl 1:* fighter using a Orc Double Axe
Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting; Weapon Focus (double-axe)
Skills: Intimidate, Survival 
Armor: Studded Leather Armor (armor check -1 penalty)
AC 15, touch 12, flat-footed 13
Melee: Orc double axe +6 (1d8+6, 20/x3) or double axe +4 (1d8+4, 20.x3) and (1d8+2, 20/x3)
Ranged: shortbow +3 (1d6, 20/x3)

*Lvl 2:* Rogue (or party has no rogue and I was thinking two-weapon + sneak attack = good idea)
Feat: ?????
Skills: lots - all rogue-ish
Armor: Armor: Studded Leather Armor (armor check -1 penalty)
AC 15, touch 12, flat-footed 13

*Q:* I'm concerned about my armor class, but I as a rogue I don't like my -1 armor check penalty either.  Thoughts?
*Q:* My 2nd level feat (rogue 1st level) - not sure how this is termed.  Suggestions?
*Q:* Skills: I'm allowed +4 when I rank in skills - but only once per skill even if I improve in that skill in different classes (fighter and rogue), right?
*Q:* I'm even considering Barbarian multi-classing later to get the added speed which would help with sneak attack opportunities - is this just stupid?

Going forward, we might play up to Lvl 12 or so - any links or suggestions on how to semi-optimize my build as a 1/2 Orc, two-weapon, double-axe fighter/rogue?  I'm a beginner, so nothing you say will be too simple - any advice is recommended.  I'm hoping to build a useful enough rogue, but a type of character that is a little ruthless, jumps into fights too quickly, is usually melee-based, and used double-weapon to differentiate him from our other fighter.  Thanks!


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## buddhafrog (Mar 19, 2011)

bumping this up - shameful post asking for help while offering nothing.  Sorry.  Part of what I'm asking is in Pathfinder, some feats and fighting styles are much more beneficial than others - but I have no idea what those are.  Maybe the simple and best answer is just to play and figure it out, but hey...


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## Zil (Mar 19, 2011)

buddhafrog said:


> bumping this up - shameful post asking for help while offering nothing.  Sorry.  Part of what I'm asking is in Pathfinder, some feats and fighting styles are much more beneficial than others - but I have no idea what those are.  Maybe the simple and best answer is just to play and figure it out, but hey...




I'd be inclined to just play and figure things out, but some feats to consider for the rogue portion of the character are those that let you move more easily around the encounters so you can better set up flanking opportunities.   So things like dodge and mobility (and eventually spring attack) come to mind.   Improved initiative is also nice as it increases the chance of getting a sneak attack in the first round of combat because you're more likely to catch folks flat footed.   Because you're using a double bladed orcish axe two weapon fighting is certainly a good option.


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## Zil (Mar 19, 2011)

buddhafrog said:


> *Q:* I'm concerned about my armor class, but I as a rogue I don't like my -1 armor check penalty either.  Thoughts?
> *Q:* My 2nd level feat (rogue 1st level) - not sure how this is termed.  Suggestions?
> *Q:* Skills: I'm allowed +4 when I rank in skills - but only once per skill even if I improve in that skill in different classes (fighter and rogue), right?
> *Q:* I'm even considering Barbarian multi-classing later to get the added speed which would help with sneak attack opportunities - is this just stupid?




I wouldn't worry too much about the AC.  AC 15 is fine for a 2nd level character.  If you go with dodge as a feat that will help some.  The -1 Armor Check penalty is a drag though, but if you view your character more as a bruiser than a finesse character it probably works out.  The one thing I would worry about is the small hit in making acrobatic (moving through threatened squares) checks to set up flanking opportunities while avoiding attacks of opportunity (see the acrobatics skill page 87 - 88 or Acrobatics - Pathfinder_OGC).

With regard to skills, you can only have the one +3 per class skill.  Having two classes with the same class skill doesn't give you an additional +3 (see page 86 of the PF Core Book).

I personally wouldn't take the Barbarian class just to cherry-pick the faster move, but if you think it fits the character concept go for it.


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## buddhafrog (Mar 19, 2011)

thanks for your help!


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## pawsplay (Mar 20, 2011)

buddhafrog said:


> *Q:* My 2nd level feat (rogue 1st level) - not sure how this is termed.  Suggestions?




I'm not sure what this means. At 2nd level, if you take a level of rogue, there is no feat. 

Using the double-axe works well if you can get into flanking situations. Four levels of fighter is pretty good for getting weapon specialization, but there isn't much benefit in trying to go deeper, if you want to focus on rogue abilities. I would suggest the feat Fleet, sticking with light armor and surprising a foe now and then by being just that much faster. 

Studded leather is good armor. Once you have a masterwork set or magic armor, you will have no ACP. Mithril chain is good later.


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## Glade Riven (Mar 20, 2011)

My question is, what are the goals for your character build? Without that, it's a little tricky to advise.

While multiclassing in Pathfinder is no longer as "penalised", there are inherent benefits to sticking with a core class. One thing that I would consider is going all rogue, and for talents ask the DM if you can take fighter feats instead (technically, the rules limit you to one fighter feat or the talents are some of the more dex based fighter feats). If your wanting to get a slight edge on HP, the Toughness feat would offset the higher dice roll of every-other level. If you are taking fighter for the proficiancies, a single level-dip would work well in this instance, instead of every-other level.

But it all depends on what exactly your goals are...


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## pawsplay (Mar 20, 2011)

I was actually thinking about this, and I was thinking all Rogue has its advantages. Select Combat Trick and Weapon Training as your 2nd and 4th level rogue talents. Sticking with one class means you get +1 hit point every level from your favored class if you want it. 

Half-orc
Levels
1 Martial Weapon Proficiency (double axe)
2 talent: Combat Trick (Two Weapon Fighting)
3 Double Slice
4 talent: Weapon Training (double axe)
5 Toughness
6 talent: Stand Up
7 Dazzling Display
8 talent: Resiliency
9 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10 talent: feat (Shatter Defenses)
11 Improved Critical (double axe)
12 talent: Slippery Mind

AC is basically going to come from high Dex and equipments and buffs, so this is an offense-heavy character. The basic strategy is to flank and go to town. In a pinch, Shatter Defenses allows him to demoralize opponents within 30 feet, then on the following round, unleash multiple attacks if anyone is foolish enough to remain in the area. This character doesn't have a lot of feat-based tactics, but instead relies on situation, sneak attack, and the advantages of large numbers of attacks (such as eating an AoO to perform multiple Sunder or Disarm attempts against Medium-sized foes).


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## udalrich (Mar 20, 2011)

To improve your AC and avoid the armor check penalty, you can go with master work studded leather (+3 AC, +0 ACP) and then upgrade to a mithral chain shirt (+4 AC, +0 ACP) as you get more money.

If you use the two weapon fighter variant from the APG, you also get a +1 dodge bonus to AC when you full attack.   (The rule seems to indicate that you need to use two weapons, not a double weapon, but most GM's should let you use a double weapon.)  That comes at the 3rd level of fighter.

Dodge and mobility are potentially good feats, but I would not go to Spring Attack, since it limits you to one attack per round and is not compatible with two/double weapon fighting.

Other feats that might be worth considering are nimble moves and fleet.  Being able to five foot step in difficult terrain means that you can always shift to set up the flank.  Fleet will occasionally be very useful, when you need 35 feet of movement to get into flanking position.  Or when someone tries to run away from you.

Straight rogue does have merits, but even a single level of fighter has merits.  It boosts your fort save (a weak point) and essentially gives you two bonus feats, since you no longer need to take martial weapon proficiency (orc double axe).


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## pawsplay (Mar 20, 2011)

Alternatively, you could take a single level of rogue for trapfinding, class skills, and skill points, but otherwise advance as a figher, perhaps using the Tempest variant. Also, double weapons are specified as working as if wielding two weapons, so any ability or trait that works with TWF works with a double weapons.


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## buddhafrog (Mar 20, 2011)

udalrich said:


> To improve your AC and avoid the armor check penalty, you can go with master work studded leather (+3 AC, +0 ACP) and then upgrade to a mithral chain shirt (+4 AC, +0 ACP) as you get more money.




Mithral chain shirt doesn't count as chain mail?


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## buddhafrog (Mar 20, 2011)

Thanks all.  Near the end of the 6 hour game today we leveled up to Lvl 3 (rogue 2).... 
... and then my character died.

I felt like I was getting a decent grasp on my character and how the builds work, and then he died.  I used 1/2 Orc ferocity to last one more round and attempted to drink a healing potion, and then got lit up by our first mini-BBEG.  Fortunately, I had just double hit including a critical the turn before (31 damage) and he died soon after.

This was my first character that ever died - mostly b/c this is the first I've played as a player since middle school 25 years ago.  I started to like my character, but now feel decent about rolling up a new character. 

Enworld is the best.  Thanks guys.


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## buddhafrog (Mar 21, 2011)

[MENTION=15538]pawsplay[/MENTION]

Thanks, but pour that 40 in the dirt - it might trickle down to the underdark where my former party left me - those dirty bastards.


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## Shisumo (Mar 21, 2011)

So what's next for you?

(And that half-orc fighter build looked very familiar... Did you use a pregen, perhaps?)


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## buddhafrog (Mar 21, 2011)

Shisumo said:


> So what's next for you?
> 
> (And that half-orc fighter build looked very familiar... Did you use a pregen, perhaps?)




No, could you tell me where I can find plenty of pregens online?  Believe me, I looked elsewhere before posting here asking for help - couldn't find what I needed.  I was somewhat surprised how hard it was to find various pregen builds online.  Maybe I just don't know where to look.

But as for now, I'm looking into a sorcerer - we have no magic-based character and our little halfling ranger could pick up a level of rogue and cover some of those needs for the party.  Gnome Sorcerer perhaps?  Back to the drawing board.

I got to say, I do love how multi-classing is handled in Pathfinder compared to 4e.  It's fun even if it's less optimized.


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## Shisumo (Mar 21, 2011)

buddhafrog said:


> No, could you tell me where I can find plenty of pregens online? Believe me, I looked elsewhere before posting here asking for help - couldn't find what I needed. I was somewhat surprised how hard it was to find various pregen builds online. Maybe I just don't know where to look.



Well, as it happens, I do.  (And you should check out the half-orc fighter on that PDF, just FYI.)  They're just first level, but they should get you started.  Here's hoping they help!



buddhafrog said:


> But as for now, I'm looking into a sorcerer - we have no magic-based character and our little halfling ranger could pick up a level of rogue and cover some of those needs for the party. Gnome Sorcerer perhaps? Back to the drawing board.



Gnomes make excellent sorcerers.  An interesting possibility, if APG material is available for your game, might be to make a shadow sorcerer and take the Master Tinker alternate racial trait.  That would give you Stealth as a class skill and racial bonuses to both Disable Device and Perception - basically, the three most important rogue skills.  If you can manage to squeeze out enough skill points each level, you might be able to take over that rogue slot yourself!


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## buddhafrog (Mar 21, 2011)

[MENTION=85314]Shisumo[/MENTION]

Thanks.  I actually saw that pdf very early but my problems started as I tried to level up and particularly multiclass.  Now that I've played a few times, though, re-looking at the list is very helpful.  I understand more what it means.

I think the APG would be available - it wasn't stated either way and the DM has it.  I'm definitely interested in this shadow build - will do my research.


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## Shisumo (Mar 22, 2011)

buddhafrog said:


> I think the APG would be available - it wasn't stated either way and the DM has it. I'm definitely interested in this shadow build - will do my research.



i know you said you like multiclassing in Pathfinder, and bully for you that you do!, but one of the things _I_ like best about Pathfinder is that it is easier to pull off cross-class "roles" without actually having to multiclass, particularly as compared to 3.5.

Using 20 point buy (as it looks like you are), one possible set of stats would look like this after racial modifiers:
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 16
With the favored class bonus going into skills (and a set of masterwork thieves' tools), at 3rd level you would have:
Disable Device +8, Knowledge (arcana) +8, Perception +7, Spellcraft +8, Stealth +12

Not as good as a "real" rogue for certain, but still pretty functional!


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