# Personal Forums



## Morrus (Mar 23, 2004)

I'm just fishing for opinions here...

As you know, part of my post-donation plan is to ensure that EN World remains financially stable in the years to come.  Donations are all well and good, but they are not a viable long-term business plan (even so, I'll still hold a yearly fundraiser, but it won't be an "emergency" fundraiser like last year!)

Anyway, as part of the long-term plan, I'm playing with revenue-generating ideas.  I have a few, but there are two which I wanted to discuss.

The first, you can see in another thread - that's the move towards making community supporter accounts a little more attractive by including personal ad banners in the package.  I may well think of more little things to add as time goes on.

The second idea is the reason for this thread - I have been chatting with the mods, and we all figure it would be cool to "sell" hosted forums here at EN World to anyone who wants one.  Eric, for example, thought it would be cool to have a private forum for his gaming group.  There are probably a million other uses you can think of for a hosted forum.

Looking at the vBulletin options, it seems that it is fairly easy to set up forums, either public or private; I could sell them via RPGNow in the same way that I sell ad space and community supporter accounts at present, probably on a yearly "rental" basis". 

So here are our (very vague!) thoughts at present:

The "owner" of the forum would be given moderator-ship of that forum; he/she could appoint other mods if necessary.  
Public/Private?  Options to have it password protected or open to anyone.
We were figuring that people could use the forums for anything they wanted (even covering forbidden topics here at EN World), but if the forum was outside EN World's usual messageboard guidelines, it would have to be a private forum, not a public one.  Of course, illegal stuff wouldn't be allowed.
Sub-forums: Allowed?  Extra charge? Do you want a single forum or a "suite" of forums (like, for example, the Creature Catalog or T13K have here at present).
Themes: Customisable?  With/without EN World ad banners?
Terms/Conditions:  Any suggested rules, guidelines?  There are some things we don't want the forums used for (for example, a private forum used by a small clique to coordinate trolls on the main boards would be just mean)
Anyway, those are just some of the thoughts at present.  We also realise that you can get your own free boards elsewhere fairly easily, but I don't htink that's too much of a problem - these hosted forums would be for a very niche selection of people who saw it as useful/desirable to have their forum here rather than at, say, EZBoard. 

Those are our thoughts.  What are your thoughts?  Can you imagine being interested in something like that?  Have you any observations on how it could be handled?  Bear in mind that we're just "brainstorming" here right now.  Consider it a useless intellectual excercise.


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## Eosin the Red (Mar 23, 2004)

I can think of tons of uses for "private" forums on ENworld - but I also think that sprawl would be troublesome. I can see several publishers who would find it benificial to have their own fori here to discuss recent releases and such. Most of that type of coverage will want thier fori to be upfront with all the rest to get good "front page time" so to speak on main forum page.

Overall I like the idea and would probably be interested myself (of course, I have a forum already so that might make me odd.)


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## Morrus (Mar 23, 2004)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> Most of that type of coverage will want thier fori to be upfront with all the rest to get good "front page time" so to speak on main forum page.



I won't be considering that as an option; this is (possibly) a useful feature to offer, but it's not an advertising offer - there are other ways to advertise one's messageboard.  Any hosted forums would be off the main page in a sub-category.


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## Morrus (Mar 23, 2004)

Of course, the other vBulletin function which someone with a hosted forum might find useful is the syndication function.  Any forum can be easily syndicated, so if people want the "latest forum threads" of their own personal forum on their website (like I have on the front page of EN World), it's as easy as pasting in a bit of code.


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## Buttercup (Mar 23, 2004)

I would so love this!

I would use it for my gaming group, to post the rumors, myths and images that I now currently email them.  It might also be a useful way for PCs to interact between sessions.

Regarding a suite of forums, I would definately want that if I were running an online game, but my particular case, it probably wouldn't be necessary.  I think it would be cool if you could offer it, though.  Perhaps you could charge a certain base rate for a single forum, and a certain additional amount for each child forum?

I see Eosin's concern about sprawl, but since it is possible to bookmark a specific forum, these private ones wouldn't need to be all that visible to be useable.

It's an excellent idea!  How much would you charge?


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## Morrus (Mar 23, 2004)

Buttercup said:
			
		

> It's an excellent idea! How much would you charge?



I have absolutely no idea!  How much would you pay?


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## Buttercup (Mar 23, 2004)

Hmm.  Originally I said I'd pay $50 per year.  However, you might consider rolling this option into a "Super Community Supporter" account.  You could then charge more.  Say, $75.  

You have to consider how much this service would cost elsewhere.  You can get an ad-free EZ Board for less than 50 bucks, last time I checked.  Of course, I don't think you can host files for that amount.  And you have the hassle of dealing with the EZ Board folks, who aren't always customer service oriented.

Might you consider having a menu of paid services, such as the standard CS account, galleries, a forum, ad banners and so forth?  Or would that be a pain in the neck to administer?


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## Umbran (Mar 23, 2004)

The question that needs to be asked is: How many of these suckers can you support before it starts degrading overall forum performance?  If, in order to feed our ever-inreasing bandwidth and database processing needs, you sell something that increases those needs, you may wind up shooting yourself in the foot.


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## Morrus (Mar 23, 2004)

I can't see that being a problem, Umbran.  I don't imagine personal forums will create vast amounts of *new* traffic.  And, if it starts to mount up, I can simply stop accepting new forums.

Buttercup - yup, I can't *compete* with EZBoard.  This really is for people who would prefer to have their forum here rather than elsewhere.  Besides, vBulletin is way nicer than EZBoard.


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## alsih2o (Mar 23, 2004)

"Funky stuff from history" forum....Yeah, I like the sound of that.


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## Psionicist (Mar 23, 2004)

I am sorry to be a pain in the *** Morrus but I am unsure if you can do this

http://www.vbulletin.com/order/license_agreement.php



> The Software is licensed only to you. You may not rent, lease, sublicence, sell, assign, pledge, transfer or otherwise dispose of the Software in any form, on a temporary or permanent basis, without the prior written consent of Jelsoft.




Edit:This can be solved by installing a free board and host the personal forums there. PhpBB or PunBB are both nice alternatives to vBulletin.


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## Morrus (Mar 23, 2004)

Interesting.  Technically, if you're right, that would apply to community supporter accounts, too (I'm "leasing" the search function, for example).  

I interpret it as leasing the software, not leasing _use_ of the software - it's legal for me to charge people to use my messageboards (and the various functions thereof), but it's not legal for me to give you the software (for free or for profit).


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## Macbeth (Mar 23, 2004)

alsih2o said:
			
		

> "Funky stuff from history" forum....Yeah, I like the sound of that.



Ooooh, please, make it public.... Or at least let me in


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## Michael Morris (Mar 23, 2004)

Since personal forums can have their own styleset should this be included as an option, and at an extra charge (It takes approximately 4 hours to do a styleset, sometimes more, sometimes less).  $20 seems fair to me, given the time involved.


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## BrooklynKnight (Mar 23, 2004)

So, as of now, personal forums are only for those that pay extra beyond the CS accounts?


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## cybertalus (Mar 24, 2004)

Morrus,

After reading your idea, I wanted to mention some concerns I have.  Not in the spirit of stomping on the idea, but in the spirit of trying to find problems before they happen so they can be prevented.

The idea overall seems pretty cool.  And I can certainly see advantages for EN World's users as well as for you (fewer websites for the users to access, and more revenue for EN World in exchange for that convenience).  However, I have some concerns about private forums.

One problem with private forums is that whether they are created for that purpose or not, they tend to become the nucleus of cliques.  I've seen it happen before on other boards and in chat rooms.  Someone creates a private area for themself and a few friend away from the "noisy" main area, and before long most of the activity in the private area consists of complaints about people in the main area.  I think a very large part of the success of EN World has been that for the most part the mods and admins have managed to keep the board from breaking into cliques and factions so that people don't begin to think of some people on the boards as "us" and other people on the boards as "them", and I'm concerned that private forums could undermine that.

I've also seen that it's very difficult to keep conversations isolated to private areas.  I think this could be of particular concern if you allow for religious, political, or other controversial discussions in private areas.  If someone develops a dislike or even a grudge against someone else because of a discussion in a private forum, it is going to be extremely difficult for them to not carry that over into the main boards.  This could potentially lead to closures of otherwise legitimate threads.  On a related note it could also make it very difficult to stomp out flames.  If users are going at each other and the topic is closed on the main boards but they're allowed to continue flaming on in a private forum, then a particular topic might never truly settle down.

I expect that there are ways to avoid all of these potential problems, but I figured they might be easier to avoid if someone mentioned them early on.


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## Morrus (Mar 24, 2004)

cybertalus said:
			
		

> I've also seen that it's very difficult to keep conversations isolated to private areas. I think this could be of particular concern if you allow for religious, political, or other controversial discussions in private areas. If someone develops a dislike or even a grudge against someone else because of a discussion in a private forum, it is going to be extremely difficult for them to not carry that over into the main boards. This could potentially lead to closures of otherwise legitimate threads. On a related note it could also make it very difficult to stomp out flames. If users are going at each other and the topic is closed on the main boards but they're allowed to continue flaming on in a private forum, then a particular topic might never truly settle down.



We [the mods and I] have discussed this, as we considered it something to be concerned about, too. However, we came to the conclusion that it happens anyway, but right now it just happens via messageboards found elsewhere; we figured that we'd rather it happen in sight, where we can be prepared to deal with it, than out-of-sight in a private forum on some random EZBoard.


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## BrooklynKnight (Mar 24, 2004)

Err, that doesnt answer my question. Though its good you guys are aware of that.

Currently are personal forums open to any community supporters, or only those who pay specifically for them.


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## BSF (Mar 24, 2004)

ArthurQ - I think that is part of what Morrus is trying to decide.

Morrus - I might be interested.  It would kind of depend on a few things.  I can see some nice utility for my gaming group to have threaded, searchable discussions without having the hassle of dealing with my ISP.  Of course, I have also thought of getting a broadband connection at home and just running the server myself.  Or, any other number of options.  

So, this would be a nice alternative that I would consider.  Realistically speaking, a gaming group discussing an ongoing game is not going to generate a huge amount of traffic in comparison to EN World's public forums.  For the game I play in (running on the DM's copy of Vbulletin) we have generated nearly 10,000 posts in just about 2 1/2 years.  Out of that, I am the most prolific poster with 2408 posts.  We are a 6 person group.  We are probably less chatty than some groups, and we are much more chatty than the group I DM that has 8 players and just a few hundred posts.  My previous game ran for ~ 2 years and might have approached 1000 posts.  So, resource wise this is not a huge addition to ENWorld.  The other benefit I would see would be that I would have an easier time encouragin my players to come check EN World out.  As it is, Macbeth is the only ENWorld regular in my group.  (And that is hardly a surprise since we met through ENWorld.)

For my purposes, I would want a "private forum" since anything that the group wanted to make "public" could be posted in ENWorld's regualr threads.  It would just give us the capability to have a little more organized board to post to.


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## BrooklynKnight (Mar 24, 2004)

I just wanna run a  password protected polotical discussion forum :-D


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## Morrus (Mar 24, 2004)

ArthurQ said:
			
		

> Err, that doesnt answer my question. Though its good you guys are aware of that.
> 
> Currently are personal forums open to any community supporters, or only those who pay specifically for them.



ArthurQ, you don't need to ask this question.  You just need to read the thread.

However, I'll answer it.

Currently, personal forums are not open to anyone at all.


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## Gez (Mar 24, 2004)

Some thoughts:

I think it's a good idea. There will be people interested, that's for sure, and will be an even bigger incentive than the CS status.

The base cost should be low enough: if it's possible to set up an EZ board for $50,  then $50 is a good starting point. Maybe even merely $40, or $30. But make each option cost a little extra.


_Public/Private? Options to have it password protected or open to anyone._
Maybe a private forum (restricted to specific users, or password protected) could cost a little bit more. +$5, maybe. +10 if the forum is also hidden (not displayed in the list of forums to members who haven't access to it).
_Sub-forums: Allowed? Extra charge? Do you want a single forum or a "suite" of forums (like, for example, the Creature Catalog or T13K have here at present)._
The base price would give one forum. Any subforum would be an extra. $10 or $5 more per extra forum.
_Themes: Customisable? With/without EN World ad banners?_
MM thinks a custom theme should cost $20. Why not? Getting an ad-free forum would cost an extra, too.
_Terms/Conditions: Any suggested rules, guidelines? There are some things we don't want the forums used for (for example, a private forum used by a small clique to coordinate trolls on the main boards would be just mean)_
Rough guidelines. The personal  forum should not be devoted to illegal content, it should be private if non-grandma-friendly, and it should not be allowed to affect the rest of EN World.

Other extras:
The possibility to attach files in that forum. (Reasonning? It takes more disk space.)
The possibility to allow HTML tags in posts, like <table>. (Reasonning? It can mess up things when used irresponsibly.)
The possibility for the forum creator and leader to have a bigger avatar. (Reasonning? It would affect, although a little, the rest of ENW.)

The basic idea is to propose a cheap, attractive service, but to incite people to pay for special perks.


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## Buttercup (Mar 24, 2004)

Gez expressed in more detail the idea I was getting at above.

I think charging a base rate and then having a menu of a la carte items at additional (smallish, say $5 - $10) charge would work.

Personally, I'd pay for a private, passworded forum with file hosting.  Possibly I'd pay for a custom theme too.

As soon as you decide, I'll be ponying up the cash.


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## Morrus (Mar 24, 2004)

Well, there's some decent hosted forum management software in place now. it gives people complete admin control over their hosted forums, including:

Unlimited number of forums in category
Control over style, colours, logos, headers, footers
Ability to assign co-admins or moderators
Ability to set passwords to make forum private
Ability to allow specific people access; ability to ban people
Unfortunately, what it doesn't do is allow me to limit these options on a per-user basis. This means that it will be hard to create "customised packages" as suggested above: the system allows you to have it all or nothing. A tricky problem.


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## Morrus (Mar 26, 2004)

OK, folks.

I'm putting this feature on sale for a trial period only.  That means that I'll let a few people buy it and then deactivate the product at RPGNow (as I'll be stuck with any hosted forums for a year - I'll leave it a while to see how it goes before reactivating it).  So, it's first-come-first-served.

I'm not publicising this anywhere yet.

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2620&SRC=EnWorld

At present the product isn't activated for sale (although you can view it) - it will be activated as soon as the RPGNow staff get to it.

Please note that, although the software includes certain features, you are not permitted to use all of them.  While I can't limit them with permissions, I'll be keeping an eye on what you do to make sure you don't do something I've forbidden in the product listing and rules.  These options (such as sub-forums, removing EN World's ad banners) may come later as additional features available for purchase.

Also important to note is that, although there are options in the Hoster Forum Control Panel for allowing specific people access to the forum, the only one which is active right now is a general password-protection.


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## Morrus (Mar 26, 2004)

It's now active and available.  I'll leave it there for a while, but remember that this is a trial and as such I'm limiting it to a small number of people - first come, first served!

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2620&SRC=EnWorld


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## BSF (Mar 26, 2004)

Should be interesting to see how this works out.


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## Morrus (Mar 26, 2004)

BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Should be interesting to see how this works out.



I've got your email with the RPGNow receipt.  Did you receive the automated email from RPGNow which should have given you instructions on how to create your forum?  It should have gone out at the same time as the receipt, and contains a link you can use to create your forum.


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## Macbeth (Mar 26, 2004)

Morrus, you private forum isn't so private, it looks like anybody can view it. I was just looking around the hosted forums page, and it looks like Eric's  is the only on that is passworded. the other two (your's and the new one) are open to everybody. Just thought you might want to know, since it does say "A provate forum for Morrus's D&D group."


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## Morrus (Mar 26, 2004)

Macbeth said:
			
		

> Morrus, you private forum isn't so private, it looks like anybody can view it. I was just looking around the hosted forums page, and it looks like Eric's is the only on that is passworded. the other two (your's and the new one) are open to everybody. Just thought you might want to know, since it does say "A provate forum for Morrus's D&D group."



Yeah, I guess I should put a password on it.


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## Buttercup (Mar 26, 2004)

Bought and paid for.  I emailed you the RPG Now receipt.  I'll be watching my in-box for the instructions.


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## Morrus (Mar 26, 2004)

Buttercup said:
			
		

> Bought and paid for. I emailed you the RPG Now receipt. I'll be watching my in-box for the instructions.



You should have it already; I guess RPGNow isn't sending it for some reason.  I'll PM both you and BardStephenFox with the instructions for the moment.


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## Buttercup (Mar 26, 2004)

Ok Morrus, I'm all set up.  Thanks for doing this.  Have I mentioned lately that EN World is the coolest place ever?


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## BSF (Mar 26, 2004)

Morrus,
I did not get an email explaining how to setup the forum.  I will check my PM's though.   

I might not be able to set it up right away as I am still at work  (And just got done with a 57 minute phone call - bleah).  

This should be cool.  Macbeth, I will get you added as a forum member as soon as I get the forum setup.  I will talk to the rest of my gaming group tonight to get them setup too.  

Thanks Morrus!


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## Macbeth (Mar 26, 2004)

Okay. I'll be online for another hour and a half or so (before I head up to Albq. for gaming tonight), I'll watch for anything happening.


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## BSF (Mar 27, 2004)

Macbeth said:
			
		

> Okay. I'll be online for another hour and a half or so (before I head up to Albq. for gaming tonight), I'll watch for anything happening.




Macbeth, check your email.  

Tonight, we need to encourage everyone else to get an ENWorld account and start posting.


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## Macbeth (Mar 27, 2004)

Yep, I got the email, I'm in the forum, and I posted to the first thread. Awesome idea, Russ. If these end up working, I may have to dig up the money for a forum for my group...


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## Morrus (Mar 27, 2004)

Great!  Here's hoping it all goes smoothly! With luck, this'll work so well that I'll adopt it fully.


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## johnsemlak (Mar 27, 2004)

> I can see several publishers who would find it benificial to have their own _*fori*_ here to discuss recent releases and such. Most of that type of coverage will want thier _*fori*_ to be upfront with all the rest to get good "front page time" so to speak on main forum page.




Isn't the correct latinate plural of forums _fora_?

Sorry to be pedantic.  WotC's Book of Bad Latin makes me notice this stuff more.


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## Morrus (Mar 27, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Isn't the correct latinate plural of forums _fora_?
> 
> Sorry to be pedantic. WotC's Book of Bad Latin makes me notice this stuff more.



I'm going to stick with "forums".  "Fora" just sounds so poncy!


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## johnsemlak (Mar 28, 2004)

Morrus said:
			
		

> I'm going to stick with "forums".  "Fora" just sounds so poncy!



 Quite agreed.  

I'm looking forward to this.  What options will they have for pbp games.  I'd like to have the kind of options available at www.rpol.net


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## Morrus (Mar 28, 2004)

Well, it's basically just a forum, just like any other on the boards.  There's no difference in features or options, except that the "owner" of the forum has control over it.


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## Creamsteak (Mar 29, 2004)

Looks like an interesting idea. I wonder how many PbP games can afford their own little forums...


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 29, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Looks like an interesting idea. I wonder how many PbP games can afford their own little forums...



Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too...

I'm rather curious but I have a few questions:

1) Can threads from other forums be moved into the new forum?

2) If the "lease" expires or if you simply don't like the idea anymore will the threads that are in there be moved to other forums?  (As long as they meet the code of conduct for ENworld and obviously I think if you violate laws your threads are pretty much gone, and or are evidence.)

Thanks for listening to my ramblings.


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## Creamsteak (Mar 29, 2004)

1) Sure, just ask. As long as these forums are on EN World at all, I think any mod can move thread x to forum x.

As for 2, I can only speculate that the answer is probably yes.


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## Gez (Mar 29, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Isn't the correct latinate plural of forums _fora_?




Yeah. Names in -us have a plural in -i (fungus -> fungi, virus -> viri, ignoramus -> ignorami, toys'r'us -> tanar'r'i, etc.) Names in -um have a plural in -a (medium -> media, forum -> fora, duodenum -> duodena, rum -> ra, etc.)

Of course, I never studied Latin.

And it's simpler to stick to standard plural when said latin word has a broad enough usage to be considered a valid word in the language you use.

To be put more clearly, the plural of the Latin word forum is fora, but the plural of the English word forum is forums.

And if you use forum in Latin, then you must respect the convention for quoting foreign words: italicise it.

So, the plural of forum is forums, but the plural of _forum_ is _fora_.

Simpler to stick to forums.


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## Morrus (Mar 30, 2004)

For those keeping track, I've added two "Hosted Forum Add-ons" to RPGNow:

1) Additional forums - each additional forum (i.e. sub-forums within your hosted "category") beyond the first costs $10 per year.

2) Ad-free forums - I doubt many people will be too interested in this one, but if you want to remove EN World's ad banner rotation from your forum(s), it'll cost you $50 extra per year. 

You'll find the add-ons here:

http://www.rpgnow.com/default.php?manufacturers_id=276&SRC=EnWorld

So far, we have a few hosted forums and they're ticking along nicely.  No problems have arisen, so the experiment is going well.


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## EricNoah (Apr 2, 2004)

Russ, have you gotten any reports of problems with AOL users who are trying to access password-protected forums?  I've got a friend on AOL who can get to the forums, can enter the password, can see the threads, but when he tries to post or reply he gets the "not authorized" screen.  Any thoughts about that?


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## Trevalon Moonleirion (Apr 2, 2004)

alsih2o said:
			
		

> "Funky stuff from history" forum....Yeah, I like the sound of that.




Ooooh... I want to be in that forum!!


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## Morrus (Apr 2, 2004)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Russ, have you gotten any reports of problems with AOL users who are trying to access password-protected forums? I've got a friend on AOL who can get to the forums, can enter the password, can see the threads, but when he tries to post or reply he gets the "not authorized" screen. Any thoughts about that?



No, I haven't heard anything like that.  I know someone who uses AOL, so I'll use her PC to see if it's a general problem or an isolated case.


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## Mirth (Apr 16, 2004)

Morrus,

I'm here on the behalf of the ENWorld Mac Users to beg for a forum for our group. I started a thread in the Software forum about 8 months ago to try and bring all the Mac users here together and so far we're up to 40 members:

Mac Users Identify Yourselves! 

Is there any way you could find it in your heart to give us a home away from (within?) home so we wouldn't have to keep posting everything all in one thread? Feel free to email me if need be.

Thanks,

Jay / Mirth

mirthcard [at] yahoo [dot] com


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## barsoomcore (Apr 16, 2004)

Hi Morrus.

Also begging. And am willing to provide you with, um, say, baked goods. Yum!

Especially after having been through both the Canadian and the British postal services.


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## Dimwhit (Apr 17, 2004)

Another Mac user who would love a Mac home here at EN World.

They say it never hurts to ask...


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## Mirth (Apr 18, 2004)

Bumping for Russ 

We also thought perhaps a sub-forum to Software might be more practical. Let us know what you think...

Jay


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## PugioilAudacio (Apr 19, 2004)

Adding my vote here. A mac forum/subforum would be awsome!


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## Mirth (May 6, 2004)

I'm bumping this one last time for Morrus. I don't want to bother him with email about it, but I guess I will if he doesn't see this...


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 6, 2004)

I'm sure it doesn't but since it got bumped and I'm still having issues over the lack of emails do the personal forums have instant email notification anymore?

As I said I really doubt it but I would gladly buy one for the PbP games I'm in....


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## Mirth (Aug 29, 2004)

Thought I would give this another bump to plead for a Macintosh subforum in the Software, Computers... forum since I never heard a reply from Russ. Should I start a new thread? The only reason I didn't right now was because other Mac users had voiced their opinion in this thread and I wanted to make sure they were heard.

Thanks,

Jay

mirthcard [at] yahoo [dot] com


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## Morrus (Aug 29, 2004)

Something like that would only be created if there seemed to be a need for it - and the Computers forum is pretty quiet generally; certainly not under siege by Mac threads.  If enough people start talking about it, to the extent where the discussions seem to warrant another forum, I'll consider it then.

Right now, it'd be a very lonely forum!


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## Mirth (Aug 29, 2004)

Morrus said:
			
		

> Something like that would only be created if there seemed to be a need for it - and the Computers forum is pretty quiet generally; certainly not under siege by Mac threads.  If enough people start talking about it, to the extent where the discussions seem to warrant another forum, I'll consider it then.
> 
> Right now, it'd be a very lonely forum!




Thanks for the consideration, Russ  

Actually, we keep most of the Mac discussion in that one thread, thereby making it pretty unwieldy when several different discussions are going on. Perhaps we should use a [Mac] or [Macintosh] or [Apple] header to start making separate threads. I'll bring it up to the group.

Thanks again,

Jay


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