# why are "create undead" and "control undead" so awful?



## evilbob (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm sure this question has been asked before, but why is it that a 6th level spell (_create undead_) can only create a CR 1 creature with 13 HP when you first get it, but a 4th level spell (_animate dead_) can potentially create a CR 6 creature with over 80 HP when you first get it?

It seems like create undead should really be more like a 3rd level spell.  It's almost worthless compared to animate dead, at least until level 15 or so.  The undead it creates also are not under your control; they need an additional spell to control them.  So why is this spell such a high level?  What makes it worthwhile?  And why is it a 6th level spell?


However, even worse is the disparity between _command undead_ and _control undead_.  _Command _is a 2nd level spell that is an auto-win against unintelligent undead, and when it works it works for days and days.  _Control _is a 7th level spell that works for minutes.  Granted, it is apparently more like dominate vs. _command_'s charm-like effect, but the duration makes the spell completely useless.  It can also potentially work on more than one target, but since you're limited by hit die - 2 HD/level - you'll be lucky to actually get anything with few enough HD for the spell to even qualify.

Sure, the level is higher, so the DC is naturally higher, but other than that, what's the point?  What makes this spell useful at all?  Why would you ever bother?


Any light shed on either of these quandaries is appreciated!


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## krupintupple (Jan 2, 2008)

perhaps one of the reasons could be that _create undead_ allows one to create self-willed, intelligent undead, with no level cap - it appears if one had the time and the money, there is no limit on how many ghouls you could have overrunning a local town; who, by the way, would 'recruit' more undead for your armies. this is presumably a very NPC type thing to do.
_
animate dead_ seems to be for unintelligent sentries, and has a hard cap upon how many you can create/have.


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## Claudius Gaius (Jan 2, 2008)

I suspect that its because the designers didn't want characters being able to make undead that could make and command other undead until they were so powerful that that ability didn't really matter. Ergo a high level and a miserable base effect for the spell which would allow that ability. Similarily, the effects of a long-term Control Undead could allow you to control a horde of other undead indirectly.


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## evilbob (Jan 2, 2008)

> Similarily, the effects of a long-term Control Undead could allow you to control a horde of other undead indirectly.



True, but so could a well-placed _dominate person_ (a 5th level spell), assuming you got the right person.

When you have 7th level spells, who really cares about a save-or-slightly-delay undead spell?  Why not just vaporize them?  (_Disintegrate _is both a lower level spell and has a better chance of working.)  I honestly believe that _control undead_ was meant to be more like a limited _dominate monster_ - like _command undead_ is a limited _charm monster_.  2 spell levels lower, confined to a single type...  It make much more sense that way.  I think it should have been days/level instead of minutes.  And if you're worried about controlling something too powerful - well it already has an HD cap.  Seems fair enough.


Creating creatures that create MORE creatures seems like a powerful ability... except that we're still talking about CR 1 monsters.  Honestly, who cares?  (Well, other than all the CR 1/2 villagers who you could have killed with a fireball anyway.)  Not to mention that we're not talking about creating infinitely spawning critters under your control - we're talking about a single monster that you have to continue to dominate somehow (expending your resources), whose minions you would have to work even harder to ALSO control, and who - if intelligent enough - might even use their spawning abilities to topple your control of them (duh, evil).  I think it's already well-limited.

The main thing that's "wrong" with this spell is that the people who wrote _animate dead_ didn't seem to realize that you could make skeletons or zombies out of more than just human commoners.  If you keep to the idea that a 4th level spell can make only CR 1/2 or CR 1/3 creatures, then the 6th level spell to create CR 1 and then CR 3 monsters makes more sense.  However, if you stuck with this idea, then that whole line of spells is worthless.  Who cares how many CR 1/3 monsters you have at your command at level 7?  Again, no one but the CR 1/2 villagers, all of whom could die to your fireball, anyway.


Any other thoughts as to why these spells are so strangely high level?


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## irdeggman (Jan 2, 2008)

evilbob said:
			
		

> True, but so could a well-placed _dominate person_ (a 5th level spell), assuming you got the right person.
> 
> When you have 7th level spells, who really cares about a save-or-slightly-delay undead spell?  Why not just vaporize them?  (_Disintegrate _is both a lower level spell and has a better chance of working.)  I honestly believe that _control undead_ was meant to be more like a limited _dominate monster_ - like _command undead_ is a limited _charm monster_.  2 spell levels lower, confined to a single type...  It make much more sense that way.  I think it should have been days/level instead of minutes.  And if you're worried about controlling something too powerful - well it already has an HD cap.  Seems fair enough.
> 
> ...





You've lost me on this logic.

Dominate Person has a saving throw and the undead spells do not, in general spells with no saving throws are of higher levels than those with them.

Where is this CR 1/2 or 1/3 limit coming from on the Animate Dead spell?

I don't see that at all. You can create up to 2 x your CL in HD (for a 7th level wizard that is 14 HD).

You can control up to 4 x your CL if undead at a time (for a 7th level wizard that is 28 HD).

With one casting, a 7th level wizard can create and control a Minotaur zombie (12 HD, CR 4) then add in two levels of fighter (nothing says they can't be "advanced" monsters either at creation or subsequently) to a total of 14 HD, CR 6 (?))

It gets better as levels progress (2 x CL HD {per casting} and 4 x CL for control at one time)


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## Kerrick (Jan 2, 2008)

> With one casting, a 7th level wizard can create and control a Minotaur zombie (12 HD, CR 4) then add in two levels of fighter (nothing says they can't be "advanced" monsters either at creation or subsequently) to a total of 14 HD, CR 6 (?))



You can't add class levels to a mindless creature. The text specifically says, "Drop any Hit Dice from class levels (to a minimum of 1)" - which means if you have a humanoid with class levels, you drop all but 1 HD and double that.

Personally, I wouldn't mind adding control to _create undead_ but not greater undead - lesser undead like ghouls and ghasts can create spawn, but they're not under anyone's control, while greater undead spawn are. Still, the ability to create lots more undead for free IS a powerful ability...


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## Nail (Jan 2, 2008)

Any way you parse this trouble, keep in mind that the undead a necromancer creates/controls should be no better than Summon Undead/Monster/Nature's Ally.  

And given the potentially permanent nature of the creation of Undead, the Undead should be weaker overall, IMO.


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## Set (Jan 2, 2008)

The problem, IMO, lies in the nature of the undead themselves.

Ghouls, Ghasts, Shadows, Wights, Wraiths, Vampires, Spectres, etc. can all create *infinite* numbers of other undead.

One Shadow can, in a single night, turn an entire village full of commoners into Shadows.

Take away this unlimited 'spawn' ability, and the undead would be far less world-destroying, and the spells to gain permanant control of them would be similarly reasonable choices.


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## evilbob (Jan 2, 2008)

irdeggman:  Sorry if I wasn't clear.  Control _does _require a saving throw, just like dominate.  And command does for intelligent undead.  So they're very similar.  My explanation of the CR 1/3 thing with animate dead is not the limit of the spell:  I was saying the spell could make sense - when relating to the create undead spells - if you could only create CR 1/2 or 1/3 creatures.  Since you _can _make better creatures, it means the create series is out of whack.  (Or at least, in comparison to animate dead.)

Nail:  Actually, animate dead is clearly more powerful than summon monster IV already.  And create undead - at caster level 11, anyway - is far worse than summon monster VI.  I understand your point, but I think those don't seem to make a good comparison.  (Unless, again, animate dead could only create CR 1/2 or 1/3 creatures - which we're all agreeing is not a limitation of the spell.)

Set:  I agree in principle, but again:  if you created an tremendous number of ghouls when you're level 11, does that really matter?  They're CR 1 creatures.  I mean, it could make a difference in the "world" at large, sure - but so could several rampaging fireballs cast by a rogue mage.  Most town guards could probably even group up and take them out (especially elven ones).  I still challenge the notion that a horde of CR 1 ghouls could do more damage to the "world" than tons of other 6th level spells.

Once you start talking about mummies and shadows and things, then yes:  the picture changes slightly.  But only slightly.  As-listed, those are still only available at level 15+...  And again, I'm sure if you fired off an 8th level spell in every town you passed through, you'd make as much of a difference in the world as a bunch of shadows.


I guess what I'm saying is that I'm still just not seeing it.    Either animate dead is overpowered, or create undead is underpowered.  But their power level just doesn't seem to stack up - at least not with create undead being 2 spell levels higher.


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## Stratovarius (Jan 3, 2008)

One change I've played around with is moving Create Undead down to a level 2 spell (Wizard), and simply not allowing those killed by Ghouls or Shadows to rise again. It is necessary to be careful, as Shadows especially can cause havoc with their DR, but this is true of many incorporeal undead throughout their existence. Most monsters have a hell of a time getting access to magic weapons. The CR of the monsters is lower than that of the Skeletons/Zombies. Further play-testing is needed though to determine how well it works in a longer campaign. Oh, and the undead are controlled in the same manner and the same cap as Animating.


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## Shin Okada (Jan 3, 2008)

Think like this. Create Undead and Create Greater Undead are NOT the higher-level version of Animate Dead spell. The purpose is completely different.

Animate Dead create mindless undead monsters, though very powerful, can understand and continue only very simple commands. So, it is good to create your bodyguard or your castle's guard.

On the other hand, Create Undead and Create Greater Undead creates monsters which think by themselves. And they are NOT UNDER YOUR CONTROL. So, those spells are, basically, not for making your mindless minion soldiers. Those spells are either used for releasing menace and chaos to the world, or to create trustworthy lieutenant from the dead body of previously royal person.

Or, to create your own friend. The eternal life of an undead could be boring and lonely.


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## evilbob (Jan 4, 2008)

True:  this spell makes some sense if you think about it in the pure "evil" respect of "you are bringing more evil into the world - forever."  Creating an evil thing that will not die on its own and can create more of itself by killing is certainly horrid and in some ways powerful; it's also a good way to explain why undead exist in the first place!  

I'm also thinking these spells might warrant house-ruled versions that are lower level and have the caveat that the undead you create cannot propagate.


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## irdeggman (Jan 4, 2008)

evilbob said:
			
		

> I'm also thinking these spells might warrant house-ruled versions that are lower level and have the caveat that the undead you create cannot propagate.




Or introduce them as the result of "spell research", no need for a house-rule change since you are in essence creating "new" spells.  Once introduced as a result of spell research they can pop up in spell books and scrolls for others to "learn".


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## Storme (Jan 10, 2008)

The limitation of these two spells as compared to Animate Dead are duration.

Create Undead gives you NO control over the undead you create and it will attack you.  I find the spell pretty useless myself, and it's high on my "Don't Bother" List.  Control and Command Undead controls undead you encounter or create for a limited duration.

Animate Dead is a poor man's simulacrum.  These are under your control forever unless you go over your limit of 4HD per level (or 40 HD for a level 10).  Ghoul Gauntlet creates Ghouls permanently under your control and so its much better for the most part.

Necromancers are wimps.  If you can afford the xp loss, go with Simulacrums.  I like to make simulacrums of party members I meet and alter their appearance, and make them servants in my castle.  Best sims are dragons (metal dragons are the best since they can change self and turn into a hawk to pose as your familiar, and sit on your shoulder while you enter the inn...oh look...that guy has a 15 HD, fire breathing, spell slinging, SR, DR, and frightful presnes having...owl!!!), and outsiders (who's spell-like abilities are not HD based).  Trouble is getting a sample from a Pit Fiend, Balor or an Ancient Gold Dragon...cough.  Best sim, bar none, is an ethereal doppleganger!  Have him turn into a mosquito (the most stealthful beings in the universe) and sit on the back of the party's arch nemesis over night.  Hehehe.  Mwaaahahaha!

Oh, and get a Mirror of Life Trapping to Store your undead and simulacrums in!  

"CELL NUMBER 9!  GO GET EM!"


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## eamon (Jan 10, 2008)

I don't see a problem with the spells.  They don't do what you want them too; so a new spell via spell research is probably a good idea.  However, creating intelligent undead (which in turn can create more) is potentially vastly more powerful than merely animating a skeleton.  Also; don't forget that to make a powerful skeleton, you need a high-HD source body, which isn't trivially available.  You just need a body for create undead.

Control undead is vastly better simply because of it's higher level, it's success regardless of opposed charisma checks and it's more powerful effect.  Sure, it's not the same as command undead, but it's not bad.  The fact that you can control multiple undead with one casting is also potentially a "free" quicken...  You could for instance control a high-level lich and his vampire, and have them sit around until command undead works; whereas vice-versa is not possible.

The spells are fine as is.

If you want an improved "animate dead"  then I suggest reviewing the various MM's to select more powerful mindless (or at the very least, stupid and not self-creating undead) undead and make a spell which requires a powerful body, but creates powerful minions.  Create Undead is something else.


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