# Bonded objects and familiars. Are they balanced?



## Nikosandros (Oct 28, 2009)

Yesterday I introduced Pathfinder to one of my groups and the player who created a wizard wondered about the arcane bond class feature.

I tend to agree with him that receiving one bonus spell per day (of any allowed level) seems rather better than the benefits granted by a familiar. It is true that the bonded object can become a liability, but realistically how often in actual play will a wizard be without it?


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## does not compute (Oct 28, 2009)

I don't think it is too powerful. A familiar grants +2 Save, +3 Skill or +3 hp. Additionally, the familiar can be used as a scout, and, with some investment, even has some use in combat. The Sorceress in our group once used her familiar to contact our cleric and get him to help us. Didn't work out oo well, because he didn't recognize the animal and tried to chase it out of the temple.


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## dmccoy1693 (Oct 28, 2009)

Korvosa City Guard "All those entering the castle must leave their weapons behind. No blades. No daggers of any kind. Sir, excuse me, you are a wizard are you not? Your familiar may accompany you, but you will have to leave your bound object behind. Queen's orders I'm afraid. I understand it helps you cast spells, but in the castle you are under the protection of the Queen's guard and will not need to be casting spells. It will be here for you when you return."


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## frankthedm (Oct 28, 2009)

> If a wizard attempts to cast a spell without his bonded object worn or in hand, he must make a concentration check or lose the spell. The DC for this check is equal to 20 + the spell's level.



The bonded item eats a slot and is a notable liability. The familiar is now the default "No hassle" feature since you can leave the critter at home or ritually sacrifice it with no extra costs or detriments.







> If a bonded object is damaged, it is restored to full hit points the next time the wizard prepares his spells. If the object of an arcane bond is lost or destroyed, it can be replaced after 1 week in a special ritual that costs 200 gp per wizard level plus the cost of the masterwork item. This ritual takes 8 hours to complete. *Items replaced in this way do not possess any of the additional enchantments of the previous bonded item.* A wizard can designate an existing magic item as his bonded item. This functions in the same way as replacing a lost or destroyed item except that the new magic item retains its abilities while gaining the benefits and drawbacks of becoming a bonded item



The _bonded item_ option is the stronger one, but comes with some baggage.


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## Starbuck_II (Oct 28, 2009)

dmccoy1693 said:


> Korvosa City Guard "All those entering the castle must leave their weapons behind. No blades. No daggers of any kind. Sir, excuse me, you are a wizard are you not? Your familiar may accompany you, but you will have to leave your bound object behind. Queen's orders I'm afraid. I understand it helps you cast spells, but in the castle you are under the protection of the Queen's guard and will not need to be casting spells. It will be here for you when you return."



 Wizard: Surely you wouldn't force an old man to part with his walking stick?


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## does not compute (Oct 28, 2009)

You can't expect every town guard to be a bunch of gullible horse people...


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## dmccoy1693 (Oct 28, 2009)

Starbuck_II said:


> Wizard: Surely you wouldn't force an old man to part with his walking stick?




Sorry Sir, Queen's orders. I'm going to have to deny you entry if you do not obey.


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## Xendria (Oct 28, 2009)

First, if this is the Queen of even a semi-large kingdom I'm sure she would have a personal guard that includes at least some adepts that can use detect magic. Honestly, depending on the strength of the kingdom, I'd expect a decent repertoire divination spells at her disposal. And knowing that she is expecting and audience, she would have those resources at the ready to check the party. This could also show how honest/paranoid the party is if the guards don't outright state that they can detect the items or lies.


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## Remus Lupin (Oct 29, 2009)

Particularly at low levels, the kind of baggage a bonded object comes with is manageable. There are certainly some RBDMs who might make the wizard leave his staff outside, though it occurs to me that a glove of storing might make a good investment for just such a purpose, and the wizard could always choose the ring or amulet option to work around that (though yes, at the cost of an item slot).

On the other hand, a free spell is a pretty important resource to have access to at 1st level, and at later levels, your spellcraft should begin to get to the level that you can make the DC for casting without your item fairly easily. Familars have always felt a bit superfluous to me, unless the player really goes out of his way to use them well. The bonded object have a clear use for any tactically-minded player.

And after all, your wizard shouldn't be in melee in the first place, so that bonded item in the weapon slot is probably in a pretty safe place.


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## EroGaki (Oct 31, 2009)

dmccoy1693 said:


> Sorry Sir, Queen's orders. I'm going to have to deny you entry if you do not obey.




"Well, if the Queen wants something from me, she can come find me in the inn."


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## TanisFrey (Oct 31, 2009)

EroGaki said:


> "Well, if the Queen wants something from me, she can come find me in the inn."



And now the DM needs to think.  Let you get away with it.  Or are you force-able relieved of it and tossed in chains.  That really depends what kingdom, how powerful is it, and the Queens motives towards the wizard in question.


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## TanisFrey (Oct 31, 2009)

Starbuck_II said:


> Wizard: Surely you wouldn't force an old man to part with his walking stick?



Remember the origin of this quote is from Tolkien's Middle Earth.  The world only had 5 wizards total in to EVER.  Gandolf only cast 4 or 5 out-rite magic spells thrown at will over the coarse of the 4 major books.

The elves' magic was of a healing nature or only could be bound in other things.  They could control they home lands to a supernatural level.

Very few Gamers play in this world with out changing it to up the magic levels.


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## EroGaki (Nov 1, 2009)

So how are these guards going to recognize Mr. Wizard anyhow? Unless he is impersonating Gandalf, I mean. If a PC wizard is dressed like a commoner, and has an arcane bond with a ring, how could the guards tell the difference?


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## ruemere (Nov 1, 2009)

EroGaki said:


> So how are these guards going to recognize Mr. Wizard anyhow? Unless he is impersonating Gandalf, I mean. If a PC wizard is dressed like a commoner, and has an arcane bond with a ring, how could the guards tell the difference?




Detect Magic. One would think that in a world where magic is common, a guard educated in a use of such spell should be a staple of any organization.
Kings and Queens would probably invest in a full-time diviner to watch their back, one who would know whether inviting certain guests is going to cause trouble.

Regards,
Ruemere

PS. Right now, my players find themselves in a Venice-like city, where Peacekeepers protect ruling class. The Peacekeepers are military intelligence agency consisting of spies, informers, diviners, archivists, enforcers who attempt to detect murders or major crimes in time to prevent them. They are not very reliable, but their reputation, contacts and resources make most major NPCs feel safer.


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## EroGaki (Nov 2, 2009)

ruemere said:


> Detect Magic. One would think that in a world where magic is common, a guard educated in a use of such spell should be a staple of any organization.
> Kings and Queens would probably invest in a full-time diviner to watch their back, one who would know whether inviting certain guests is going to cause trouble.
> 
> Regards,
> ...





Detect Magic would identify magic items, yes. But not wizards. Not unless the wizard was shrouded in wards.

Even then, any wizard who wishes to go undercover would have a Nondetection cast before hand. I would, anyway.


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## ProfessorCirno (Nov 2, 2009)

EroGaki said:


> So how are these guards going to recognize Mr. Wizard anyhow? Unless he is impersonating Gandalf, I mean. If a PC wizard is dressed like a commoner, and has an arcane bond with a ring, how could the guards tell the difference?




Because he has the big bag filled with bat droppings and sulfur, and his staff is covered in mystical arcane runes.  Also, chances are, his clothing is much nicer then the nobility, but he's not wearing armor.  In fact, that's a point right there - in the group of plate, chain shirts, and breastplate wearing people, he's wearing a robe.

Speaking of which, taking the staff is old hat.  Take their bag of components.  That'll hit them where it hurts.



EroGaki said:


> Detect Magic would identify magic items, yes. But not wizards. Not unless the wizard was shrouded in wards.
> 
> Even then, any wizard who wishes to go undercover would have a Nondetection cast before hand. I would, anyway.




The funny thing about both wizards and their players is that they start to think ONLY in terms of magic.  If I can't be divined, I can't be detected!  Meanwhile he dresses outlandish and weird and carries items that, sure, don't _detect_ as magic, but sure do _look_ like it.


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## ruemere (Nov 2, 2009)

EroGaki said:


> Detect Magic would identify magic items, yes. But not wizards. Not unless the wizard was shrouded in wards.
> 
> Even then, any wizard who wishes to go undercover would have a Nondetection cast before hand. I would, anyway.




Detect Magic is about detecting magic. Taking pains to avoid detection of that type could be most certainly a viable course of action for a character.
Just as using a more powerful form of detection employed by guards.

In other words, I am not disagreeing with you. Merely pointing out, that it is quite likely that NPCs in a perilous situations are likely to try to protect their hides.

Regards,
Ruemere


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## Nikosandros (Nov 3, 2009)

Yes, as I stated in my OP there are indeed scenarios in which the bonded object might be a liability.... but it is equally easy to present scenarios in which life can become very dangerous for a poor familiar.


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## Trihelios (Jan 10, 2010)

Starbuck_II said:


> Wizard: Surely you wouldn't force an old man to part with his walking stick?




These are not the droids you're looking for.


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## Scott DeWar (Jan 10, 2010)

I have a wizard with a bonded object who is a member of a mercenary unit. He wears light armor just to look like he is not a wizard.


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## TheNovaLord (Jan 10, 2010)

My PFS wizard would be in a spot of bother.....he has two weapon fighting to use with his staff or throw 2 daggers a round

with 14str and 18dex he is an atypical conjuror. 

he likes to pretend he is a monk!! which annoys the party monk

so yeah i dislike familiars, so bonded item was perfect for me


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## Anguish (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't get it.  If you're taking the wizard's bonded object, you're also taking the barbarian's weapons, the cleric's holy symbols, and the rogue's knives.  You're simply not allowing a sorcerer or warmage or oracle or psion or psywar or soulknife into the city in the first place.  I don't see the balance problem.

Worse, it's only the low-level wizard who'd be walking in through the gates.  You know - the kind royalty doesn't have much to be worried about.  It's the high-level scry-buff-teleport types you need to keep away from you.

I don't see a balance problem.


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## Starbuck_II (Jan 11, 2010)

Anguish said:


> I don't get it. If you're taking the wizard's bonded object, you're also taking the barbarian's weapons, the cleric's holy symbols, and the rogue's knives. You're simply not allowing a sorcerer or warmage or oracle or psion or psywar or soulknife into the city in the first place. I don't see the balance problem.
> 
> Worse, it's only the low-level wizard who'd be walking in through the gates. You know - the kind royalty doesn't have much to be worried about. It's the high-level scry-buff-teleport types you need to keep away from you.
> 
> I don't see a balance problem.




Agreed. High level wizards don't really care about 1 spell slot that much.


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## dmccoy1693 (Jan 11, 2010)

Anguish said:


> It's the high-level scry-buff-teleport types you need to keep away from you.




Any castle with important rooms not warded against scrying and teleporting is asking for trouble. If I were running, I'd have all such important room warded in such a fashion. Hell, I might even have the whole castle warded in such a fashion.


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## Teydyn (Jan 11, 2010)

EroGaki said:


> "Well, if the Queen wants something from me, she can come find me in the inn."



An invitation from the queen is not an invitation, even if it may look like one.
Its a command to appear.


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## Scott DeWar (Jan 11, 2010)

an a regal personage would have enough protection from trouble and knowledge of said 'guests' that there would be no need to ask for the bonded item to be 'held at the door'


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## cattoy (Jan 13, 2010)

A bonded item is superior unless you play in a very high magic environment where the loss of a potential item slot becomes significant. Also at low levels, the advantage is significant and the downside irrelevant.

If you don't imagine the game lasting long enough to get to the point where you will have a full spectrum spread of magic items, go with the bonded item.

Personally, my only wizard has a familiar because she likes animals.


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## Nikosandros (Jan 13, 2010)

cattoy said:


> A bonded item is superior unless you play in a very high magic environment where the loss of a potential item slot becomes significant. Also at low levels, the advantage is significant and the downside irrelevant.
> 
> If you don't imagine the game lasting long enough to get to the point where you will have a full spectrum spread of magic items, go with the bonded item.
> 
> Personally, my only wizard has a familiar because she likes animals.



That's exactly my impression. My group just completed Crypt of the Everflame, and the extra spell per day was an impressive boon for the wizard.


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## Anguish (Jan 13, 2010)

dmccoy1693 said:


> Any castle with important rooms not warded against scrying and teleporting is asking for trouble. If I were running, I'd have all such important room warded in such a fashion. Hell, I might even have the whole castle warded in such a fashion.




Meh.  Seems every fortress has unexplored caverns.  Beside, warding is relatively expensive.  While it's unlikely someone's going to successfully _teleport_ into the throne room, the original discussion was about things being taken at the town's gates.  How about we just _scry_ on a servant, use some illusions to disguise ourselves, hop in near them, assume their identity and walk inside.  I'm guessing you're going to suggest detection spells.  Sure.  Suddenly this kingdom is sinking huge portions of its wealth into spell-casting services.



cattoy said:


> A bonded item is superior unless you play in a very high magic environment where the loss of a potential item slot becomes significant.




Shrug.  You can still enchant your item.  So you can have a simple ring at 1st level, then have it turned into a _ring of featherfall_ later on.  I also fail to see where it actually says it consumes a magic item slot.  I could be blind, but I don't see a specific statement.  Intent of the rules... unclear.



Nikosandros said:


> That's exactly my impression. My group just completed Crypt of the Everflame, and the extra spell per day was an impressive boon for the wizard.




The spontaneity is probably the biggest thing, even at low-level.  I've had a _teleport_ go horribly awry with only one prepared, and the entire party ended up something like 20 miles off the coast, in the ocean.  Ooops.  Fortunately one party member was an incredible swimmer, and the rest were able to climb into a bag of holding.  It was opened periodically to refresh the air supply.  Still, the primary fighter had to swim for the better part of a day.  Plenty of Con checks for fatigue and exhaustion, and even with the cleric reaching out to "fix" things periodically, by the time the party reached shore, it was very touch & go.  Not a given.  This was before PFRPG Beta.  Had my wizard been able to use an arcane bonded object, it would've been a non-issue.

There are lots of times when just ONE spell you didn't prepare can save the day.


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## dmccoy1693 (Jan 14, 2010)

Anguish said:


> Meh.  Seems every fortress has unexplored caverns.  Beside, warding is relatively expensive.  While it's unlikely someone's going to successfully _teleport_ into the throne room, the original discussion was about things being taken at the town's gates.  How about we just _scry_ on a servant, use some illusions to disguise ourselves, hop in near them, assume their identity and walk inside.  I'm guessing you're going to suggest detection spells.  Sure.  Suddenly this kingdom is sinking huge portions of its wealth into spell-casting services.




Kings and queen tend to be arrogant and worth every CP. Things like the council chambers should be held in an anti-magic room. Seriously. Why wouldn't they believe their lives are more important than everyone else's life in the entire kingdom? Generally, their health and welfare means the stability of their domain.


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## Scott DeWar (Jan 14, 2010)

dmccoy1693 said:


> Kings and queen tend to be arrogant and worth every CP. Things like the council chambers should be held in an anti-magic room. Seriously. Why wouldn't they believe their lives are more important than everyone else's life in the entire kingdom? Generally, their health and welfare means the stability of their domain.




by the statement above i t appears that you have a stand of a neutral state on the issue. just out of curiosity, and maybe just a little bit of fun, what is your stance. Are the Regal personages worth more then the serfs?


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## TanisFrey (Jan 15, 2010)

Scott DeWar said:


> by the statement above i t appears that you have a stand of a neutral state on the issue. just out of curiosity, and maybe just a little bit of fun, what is your stance. Are the Regal personages worth more then the serfs?



In a feudal midevil setting, Yes the Knight is worth more than the Serf.  The Baron in more than the Knight.  The Duke is more than the Baron and the King and his family are worth every thing else.   So yes the Regal personages are worth more that the serfs.


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## Scott DeWar (Jan 15, 2010)

but the king starves without the serf and will have to take up the sword at eveery turn of a new day with out the night. Are they not worth a great value for those exampels?


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## dmccoy1693 (Jan 15, 2010)

Scott DeWar said:


> Are the Regal personages worth more then the serfs?




This is off topic, but is a bit of fun. My own stance is that some people think far to highly of themselves. It just so happens that many of them happen to run countries back in the Middle/Dark Ages (and later). Ludwig II of Bavaria is a prime example. He pretty much bankrupted his country building castles (Neuschwanstein Castle included) long after the era of castles outlasted their usefulness. But he did it anyways, regardless of what his people thought. 

So arguing that you'll bankrupt the country so you can't do this or that doesn't hold much water with me. Rulers did whatever they wanted and didn't care how much it cost them (or their people). Besides, most people in Middle/Dark ages lived in poor squaller and were taxed heavily to pay for their royalty's lavish lifestyle. Few rulers have been responsible to their people and fewer still had good financial management skills.


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## TanisFrey (Jan 15, 2010)

Scott DeWar said:


> but the king starves without the serf and will have to take up the sword at eveery turn of a new day with out the night. Are they not worth a great value for those exampels?



There was always food on the table of the king when the people starved from a failed crop.  there was always merchants to loan money and transport food unless there was a total break down of society.

And remember my first statement was using the moral outlook of the typical person in the feudal system.  People thought differently back then.  

example of changing moral outlook:  The Trail of Tears in the US history.  Today it on as a great tradigy but the common US citizen of the time was all for it.


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## Scott DeWar (Jan 15, 2010)

TanisFrey said:


> And remember my first statement was using the moral outlook of the typical person in the feudal system.  People thought differently back then.
> 
> example of changing moral outlook:  The Trail of Tears in the US history.  Today it on as a great tradigy but the common US citizen of the time was all for it.



tis true as to the paridigm shift in thought. good point.


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## cattoy (Jan 20, 2010)

Anguish said:


> Shrug.  You can still enchant your item.  So you can have a simple ring at 1st level, then have it turned into a _ring of featherfall_ later on.  I also fail to see where it actually says it consumes a magic item slot.  I could be blind, but I don't see a specific statement.  Intent of the rules... unclear.




P78. Amulet, ring, staff, wand or weapon.

Amulet or ring must be worn to work (taking up a magic item slot) staff, wand or weapon must be wielded (taking up a slot)

Or you could leave your bonded item at home and make a concentration check 20+spell level every time you try to cast any spell...


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## Nikosandros (Jan 22, 2010)

cattoy said:


> P78. Amulet, ring, staff, wand or weapon.
> 
> Amulet or ring must be worn to work (taking up a magic item slot) staff, wand or weapon must be wielded (taking up a slot)



Yes, but the rules allow the wizard to enchant the bonded object:



> A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required  item creation feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat.



So the slot isn't really wasted.


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## Scott DeWar (Jan 22, 2010)

the problem is that with the beta it allowed you to enchant it from first level even without the feat, but only the bonded item. as the final version shows, you need to wait until you are of sufficient level to get the feat and then you can enchant it. In the case of the ring, that is level 7 caster level.



			
				 D 20 Pathfinder SRD: said:
			
		

> Forge Ring (Item Creation)
> 
> You can create magic rings.
> 
> ...


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## ffanxii4ever (Jan 22, 2010)

Maybe its just me, but I've been a wizard twice now in PF, and neither time I took a bonded object.   Partly because I don't want to risk it/waste the item slot but mainly because they are boring.
Sure you get that extra spell per day, of any spell that you know, which is very useful.   But I'll take the wizard with the smart-talking raven familiar, or the wizard with a ill-tempered psuedodragon by his side, or (the one time I played a warrior spellcaster in 3.5) the mean-as-hell battle sorcerer with Fluffy the winter wolf by his side, over the wizard with a little ring that lets him pull a once-per-day rabbit out of his hat


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## JacktheRabbit (Feb 1, 2010)

Teydyn said:


> An invitation from the queen is not an invitation, even if it may look like one.
> Its a command to appear.




If that is so then the Queen can try to send her guards to prove that. But if she is asking for the party to appear then that is because she needs them to do something and being an annoying wench to a group of people who can generally level a small city when made angry is not a good way to accomplish that.


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## DragonLancer (Feb 1, 2010)

The idea that city gate guards are going to have casters with them to find spellcasters or magically tooled up individuals entering the city, is using magic as technology which I detest. I want a mediveal world with my D&D added.

As for the debate, reading through the book I instantly jumped at bonded items. IMO they are far superior to taking a familiar. That the wizards has an extra spell for whatever he needs ("damg, I don't have a knock spell. Time to camp up till tomorrow morning lads...") is fantastic. I'd much rather have that than a bonus save or skill mod from a familiar.


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