# And the title of Episode III is...



## John Crichton (Mar 24, 2004)

...

Episode III:  The Creeping Fear

Just in case you know *absolutely nothing* about the events of Episode III there are some spoilers but nothing to be really concerned about.  Yes, this is a rumor.  Yes, it could be BS or an April 1st joke.  But so what?  This is where the fun starts...

http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=17252

Let the "It sucks!" & "Lucas has lost his mind!" rants begin!  

For the record, I like the title - fake or not.


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## CrusaderX (Mar 24, 2004)

I won't say "it sucks", but I don't like it.  *Revenge of the Sith*, to parallel Return of the Jedi, would have been much better on so many levels.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Mar 24, 2004)

Its not my favorite...but truthfully, it fits the style of the movies(Saturday Matinee) and the way the movie will go.


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## RangerWickett (Mar 25, 2004)

Hell, I still think "The Phantom Menace" is iffy, and yes, "Attack of the Clones" just bleeping bleeps!


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## Dark Jezter (Mar 25, 2004)

I like the title.  So you won't be seeing any "It sucks!" or "Lucas has lost his mind!" rants coming from me.


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## Psychic Warrior (Mar 25, 2004)

Like most things linked to Star Wars now it is bland and dull. *sigh*  

/cuddles up with his trade paperback of the Star Wars comic books from 1979.


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## John Crichton (Mar 25, 2004)

I actually like "Rise of the Empire" as well.  That one has been around forever, tho.  A buddy of mine and I was naming the trilogy back before Episode One came out and we thought that II would be "The Clone Wars" & III would be either "Revegne of the Sith" or "Rise of the Empire."  But both of those are a bit obvious and not the style that Lucas has chosen for the prequels so far.

"The Creeping Fear" works, too.


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## KenM (Mar 25, 2004)

Episode III: The quest for more money.


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## Kai Lord (Mar 25, 2004)

The Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones
The Creeping Fear

Hmmm.  Somehow I don't see George choosing that title, but who knows.  I don't mind it, but in six Star Wars films no one has *ever* leaked the actual title of an upcoming episode before it was officially announced so I don't put a lot of stock in that rumor.


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## Kai Lord (Mar 25, 2004)

On a somewhat related note, check out the banner of mostly character images bordering the force.net site:  http://www.theforce.net/episode3/index.shtml#23496

Something about it just gives me a really good vibe, like George might be nailing the tone this time around.  And I really dig the new pissed off/badass look of Yoda.


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## John Crichton (Mar 25, 2004)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> The Phantom Menace
> Attack of the Clones
> The Creeping Fear
> 
> Hmmm. Somehow I don't see George choosing that title, but who knows. I don't mind it, but in six Star Wars films no one has *ever* leaked the actual title of an upcoming episode before it was officially announced so I don't put a lot of stock in that rumor.



Agreed.  This is likely the last time we get to speculate like this for a Star Wars film so why not start early and milk it?


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## Wereserpent (Mar 25, 2004)

*Is still trying to figure out why everybody hates the prequels to the Star Wars films, even ones they have not seen yet*


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## John Crichton (Mar 25, 2004)

Galeros said:
			
		

> *Is still trying to figure out why everybody hates the prequels to the Star Wars films, even ones they have not seen yet*



 It's cuz all the cool kids are doing it these days.


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## Welverin (Mar 25, 2004)

*ep3 title*

I just don't like the sound of it The Creeping Fear, I suppose it's better than Attack of the Clowns.



			
				Psychic Warrior said:
			
		

> /cuddles up with his trade paperback of the Star Wars comic books from 1979.




Now that's something SW related I think was bad.


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## Taelorn76 (Mar 25, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> ...
> Episode III:  The Creeping Fear




Not saying it's bad, but it doesn't sound Star Wars-ish to me. Just doesn't seem to flow. IMHO


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## Nuclear Platypus (Mar 25, 2004)

I was thinking Anakin becomes Darth Vader at the end of the Clone Wars microseries, especially since there's a teaser of him and who appears to be Mace Windu in a duel. Adding to that is the voiceover that is vaguely Vader-ish but that might be the new General that'll be in Episode III. The only problem with that theory involves Luke & Leia.

Now what any of this has to do with the current thread, um... I don't know. I still think the Rock should've been a Sith apprentice so the next movie could've been Episode III: Know Your Role.


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## John Crichton (Mar 25, 2004)

Nuclear Platypus said:
			
		

> I was thinking Anakin becomes Darth Vader at the end of the Clone Wars microseries, especially since there's a teaser of him and who appears to be Mace Windu in a duel. Adding to that is the voiceover that is vaguely Vader-ish but that might be the new General that'll be in Episode III. The only problem with that theory involves Luke & Leia.
> 
> Now what any of this has to do with the current thread, um... I don't know. I still think the Rock should've been a Sith apprentice so the next movie could've been Episode III: Know Your Role.



 Well, not much at all.  

It's pretty well established that Anakin will not be Vader at the start of Episode III (there will not be Vader in the Clone Wars toons) but he will be Vader by the end of it.


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## Krieg (Mar 25, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> Episode III:  The Creeping Fear




I love the comment in the thread on the linked page...



> _"Passions of the Jedi would have been better!"_




Lucas is probably pissed that Gibson beat him to the punch.


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## Remus Lupin (Mar 25, 2004)

I dunno. I'm trying to envision this as a novel:

Chapter One: The Phantom Menance [okay, appropriately mysterious for a first chapter]
Chapter Two: Attack of the Clones [Well, we've got rising action, but it's corny]
Chapter Three: The Creeping Fear [Anticlimax, plus, it sounds like a zombie horror flick]
Chapter Four: A New Hope [See, Chapter 3 needed to imply chapter 4]
Chapter Five: The Empire Strikes Back [Also Corny, but implies movement]
Chapter Six: Return of the Jedi [Good way to wrap up the story arc. We begin and end with the Jedi (story-wise, not title-wise).

Creeping Fear just doesn't do it for me. Then again, My attitude toward the movies in general this go-round has been: Fun eye-candy, really horrible story-telling.


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## Kai Lord (Mar 25, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Agreed.  This is likely the last time we get to speculate like this for a Star Wars film so why not start early and milk it?



Certainly.  And its definitely completes the tradition of supposedly leaked titles.  Everyone thought it would be Episode I: Balance of the Force, Episode II: The Clone Wars, and now Episode III: The Creeping Fear.  But instead we got The Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, and...whatever Lucas will officially reveal.


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## John Crichton (Mar 25, 2004)

Yeah, we most likely won't get the official title until later this year.  I think it will happen around the time the SE Trilogy DVDs hit.  A teaser trailer will hit shortly after if history is any indicator.

I can't wait.


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## Psychotic Dreamer (Mar 25, 2004)

I really like "The Creeping Fear" and think it would make a perfect name to come before "A New Hope".


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## Kai Lord (Mar 25, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> A teaser trailer will hit shortly after if history is any indicator.
> 
> I can't wait.



Totally.  Its cool to think that in about seven months we'll be seeing that first teaser of completed Episode III footage.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Mar 25, 2004)

WHile I don't think it's the tile, I kind of like it. Cheesy, but I like it.


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## aliensex (Mar 25, 2004)

Remus Lupin said:
			
		

> I dunno. I'm trying to envision this as a novel:
> 
> Chapter One: The Phantom Menance [okay, appropriately mysterious for a first chapter]
> Chapter Two: Attack of the Clones [Well, we've got rising action, but it's corny]
> ...




uuuuuuhhh... forget a chapter there chief?


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## Chingerspy (Mar 25, 2004)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> *T*he Phantom Menace
> *A*ttack of the Clones
> *T*he Creeping Fear




TAT - oooo not good karma


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## Henry (Mar 25, 2004)

"Return/Revenge of the Sith" would have been much more fitting, I think. But then, I'm not expecting much from this episode. That way, I'll be happier when I see it than self-hyping it and getting let down.

I just want to hear James Earl Jones one more time in a SW movie.


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## Desdichado (Mar 25, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> "Return/Revenge of the Sith" would have been much more fitting, I think. But then, I'm not expecting much from this episode. That way, I'll be happier when I see it than self-hyping it and getting let down.
> 
> I just want to hear James Earl Jones one more time in a SW movie.



That's sorta me as well.  Although I'm thinking this may be the best of the new movies.

All of which I've loved in the theaters, but which haven't held up to multiple repeat viewings, is my opinion.  They have good stories, but are badly acted, paced and scripted, unfortunately.  But they do get me riled up to run that Star Wars roleplaying campaign one day...


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## Pielorinho (Mar 25, 2004)

From theforce.net:



> Just thought I’d let you know that a band called FiLo Radio release a new single, the Creeping Fear and are playing a gig next Thursday – April Fools day!!!! See link at BBC Online.



That said, I'll be seeing this at the local brew&view dollar theater, where I can get good and toasty while watching.  I thought no character could possibly be as offensively implausible as Jar-Jar, until Anakin told the Princess, "I don't like sand...sand is rough and gets in your jock strap...You're not like sand...." and she fell for it.

Daniel


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## Kai Lord (Mar 25, 2004)

tonystrongman said:
			
		

> TAT - oooo not good karma



I don't get it.


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## Mercule (Mar 25, 2004)

Personally, I think "Rise of the Sith" sounds best, but whatever.



			
				Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> All of which I've loved in the theaters, but which haven't held up to multiple repeat viewings, is my opinion.



See, my finding is just the opposite.  After I saw TPM a second time, I realized that it was, in part, the fact that I'd seen all the original movies 100+ times that made them "feel" like Star Wars.  I still didn't much care for TPM, but I liked it better the second time around.  And it felt like a crappy SW movie instead of a crappy, unrelated flick.


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## Taelorn76 (Mar 25, 2004)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> *Revenge of the Sith*






			
				John Crichton said:
			
		

> "Rise of the Empire"




How about a combo of both *Rise of the Sith*.


also *Fall of the Jedi*. It implies Anakins fall to the Darkside, as well as the fall/defeat of the Jedi.


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## CrusaderX (Mar 25, 2004)

I like Revenge of the Sith since it gives a nice nod to the whole Revenge of the Jedi rumblings before Episode VI came out.

I don't like The Creeping Fear because this film will presumably be about Vader (or at least Anakin becoming Vader), and Vader doesn't creep.  "Creeping" isn't a good word to associate with a villian like Vader.


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## BiggusGeekus (Mar 25, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> That's sorta me as well.  Although I'm thinking this may be the best of the new movies.




Is that anything like being the tallest Dwarf in the room?




> All of which I've loved in the theaters, but which haven't held up to multiple repeat viewings, is my opinion.  They have good stories, but are badly acted, paced and scripted, unfortunately.  But they do get me riled up to run that Star Wars roleplaying campaign one day...




I still contend that Ep 1 had the best lightsaber fights and Ep 2 had the best ... the best ... the best ... former _LA Law_ actor on any sci-fi show since Corbin Bernsen's role as "Q" in "Deja Q".  Sorry, but the god-awful soul-destroying romantic dialgoue in Ep 2 was worthy of a stalker flick.  When your #1 best special effect in a Star Wars movie is Natalie Portman's tummy, you know you're in deep.

Well, OK.  The Boba v. Obi-Wan fight wasn't half bad.  And the plot was pretty good.  But *I* could have written a better script given a three day weekend and a case of Jolt cola.

But of course I'll be seeing Ep 3 in the theater.  Where Star Wars is concerned, I lack free will.


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## barsoomcore (Mar 25, 2004)

I suspect the provenance of this rumour. Unless -- WAIT!

Anakin will, over the course of the film, transform into a slimy, snakelike creature with glowing red tattoos and a TRIPLE-bladed lightsaber (because he's just got to be BADDER than ol' Darth Maul). Of course this means Lucas will have to digitally recreate every seen from the older films in which Vader appears, to replace David Prowse's boring old "Guy-In-Black" figure with the new, uber-bad Slime Sith Vader.

It's obvious.

Ep 1 had what possibly stands as the greatest swordfight every filmed by anybody who wasn't Chinese (maybe even by anybody who wasn't Jackie Chan). It's actually worth watching Jar Jar to see that fight. I remember when Maul set off the SECOND blade of his lightsaber and everyone in the theatre went, "Yeah...."

THAT was a Star Wars moment. Ep 2 had no such moments. But it DID have Natalie Portman's tummy. And Natalie Portman in a leather bustier. You don't get to see that every day.

Ep 3 has potential for good Star Wars moments. We will have to see. In the theatre, of course, because like the rest of you... I am a Star Wars beeyotch. And for the most part, pretty happy to be so.


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## Desdichado (Mar 25, 2004)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> I still contend that Ep 1 had the best lightsaber fights



Yep, no argument there.


			
				BG said:
			
		

> and Ep 2 had the best ... the best ... the best ... former _LA Law_ actor on any sci-fi show since Corbin Bernsen's role as "Q" in "Deja Q".  Sorry, but the god-awful soul-destroying romantic dialgoue in Ep 2 was worthy of a stalker flick.  When your #1 best special effect in a Star Wars movie is Natalie Portman's tummy, you know you're in deep.



I liked the end set-piece, starting with whatever chapter it is on the DVD where the three main guys are chained up and they start leading the gladiator monsters out of their gates.  From that point pretty much to the end of the movie, it's pretty good.  I also like the Obi-wan/Jango duel on the landing platform and again in the rings of Geonosis by starship.  The scenes where Obi-wan is running around Coruscant investigating the Camino dart head are interesting as well.

All in all, I liked _Attack of the Clones_ better than _The Phantom Menace_, despite it's weaknesses.


			
				BG said:
			
		

> Well, OK.  The Boba v. Obi-Wan fight wasn't half bad.  And the plot was pretty good.  But *I* could have written a better script given a three day weekend and a case of Jolt cola.
> 
> But of course I'll be seeing Ep 3 in the theater.  Where Star Wars is concerned, I lack free will.



I've got yer number there, BG.  So do I.  In fact, I'll likely see it twice on opening day, if my past history is any guide.     

But man, it's really the screenplays and the direction that are dragging these movies down.  Otherwise, they're not half bad.  Oh, and some of the casting decisions are iffy.  We'd heard early on that Ryan Phillipe was being considered for the role of Anakin.  If he'd been in it for all three consecutive movies, that would have helped _a lot_ in making them more watchable.  He's probably got more natural chemistry with Natalie (at least he's the right age) and he's got a much more manly vibe; he's got a deep voice, an intense look, etc.  And he doesn't look like a punk kid, he looks like he could be a future dark lord of the Sith...


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## Bass Puppet (Mar 25, 2004)

I was hoping that Georgie was gonna name it "Star Wars: Evolution" j/p   

I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist.


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## barsoomcore (Mar 25, 2004)

Hee.

How about "The Bride of Anakin"?

"Son of the Sith"?

"Attack of the Clones"? No, wait...


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## Sarigar (Mar 25, 2004)

Kai Lord linked
http://www.theforce.net/episode3/index.shtml#23496
Theforce.net did a little research and found that Peter Cushing (Moff Tarkin) and Christopher Lee (Dooku) were in a movie together called - _The Creeping Flesh_
Coincidence?  I don't think so.


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## John Crichton (Mar 25, 2004)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Ep 1 had what possibly stands as the greatest swordfight every filmed by anybody who wasn't Chinese (maybe even by anybody who wasn't Jackie Chan). It's actually worth watching Jar Jar to see that fight. I remember when Maul set off the SECOND blade of his lightsaber and everyone in the theatre went, "Yeah...."
> 
> THAT was a Star Wars moment. Ep 2 had no such moments. But it DID have Natalie Portman's tummy. And Natalie Portman in a leather bustier. You don't get to see that every day.



I thought the Jedi charge was a Star Wars moment.  It gave me chills.  Maybe that was just me. 


			
				barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Ep 3 has potential for good Star Wars moments. We will have to see. In the theatre, of course, because like the rest of you... I am a Star Wars beeyotch. And for the most part, pretty happy to be so.



If the reports are to be believed, 



Spoiler



the Anakin/Obi-wan duel will outdo anything previously put to film for duels


.  The whole prequel trilogy has been leading to that fight.  I can't wait.


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## mojo1701 (Mar 25, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I actually like "Rise of the Empire" as well.  That one has been around forever, tho.  A buddy of mine and I was naming the trilogy back before Episode One came out and we thought that II would be "The Clone Wars" & III would be either "Revegne of the Sith" or "Rise of the Empire."  But both of those are a bit obvious and not the style that Lucas has chosen for the prequels so far.
> 
> "The Creeping Fear" works, too.




My money's on "Fall of the Republic," since they're not officially, nor is the Emperor, IIRC, _ever_ referred to as "sith." It probably won't be "Rise of the Empire," since that's what the prequel era is called, but maybe...

"The Creeping Fear"... I don't know what to say. On the one hand, it sounds like the name of a SW book, and not the movie, but "A New Hope" sounds like it too...

I didn't mind "The Phantom Menace" or "Attack of the Clones," since the menace in TPM was hidden (i.e. Phantom) and the Clone Wars started in AotC.



			
				KenM said:
			
		

> Episode III: The quest for more money.




Yeah, just like Spaceballs II: The search for more money, right?


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## John Crichton (Mar 25, 2004)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> My money's on "Fall of the Republic," since they're not officially, nor is the Emperor, IIRC, _ever_ referred to as "sith." It probably won't be "Rise of the Empire," since that's what the prequel era is called, but maybe...
> 
> "The Creeping Fear"... I don't know what to say. On the one hand, it sounds like the name of a SW book, and not the movie, but "A New Hope" sounds like it too...
> 
> I didn't mind "The Phantom Menace" or "Attack of the Clones," since the menace in TPM was hidden (i.e. Phantom) and the Clone Wars started in AotC.



"Fall of the Republic" could work but the same problem with "Rise of the Empire" is there.  Both of those actually happen off-camera in "A New Hope."  I should have mentioned before that the names we came up with were things that we thought they would be called not necessarily the titles we liked.  



			
				CrusaderX said:
			
		

> I don't like The Creeping Fear because this film will presumably be about Vader (or at least Anakin becoming Vader), and Vader doesn't creep. "Creeping" isn't a good word to associate with a villian like Vader.



I don't believe the title is referring solely to Anakin nor should it.  The title should encompass the theme of the film and reference many characters.  If this truly is the title (which I doubt, but this is fun) then I would think it refers to the emotions that the main characters will go through leading to things like betrayal, bad decisions and rash actions.

Each of the prequel titles so far have been misleading as to the actual events of the film but still representing an overall theme.  The Creeping Fear follows that to a point.  The OT titles don't do it as much but I suspect the titles for the prequels were harder to come up with as we already know the outcome of events.

The Phantom Menace - Is it referring to the Emporer?  Anakin?  Qui-Gon?  Trade Federation?

Attack of the Clones - This is the most obvious but we have no idea based on the title who the clones are attacking, who they are working for, why they are there, who created them and for what purpose.  Nothing in previous films gives us any indication.

A New Hope (doesn't really count as it was added after release) - Sure, the Rebellion has a new hope in Luke.  But it also refers to Han's new life and his new friends.  Luke's hope is renewed as well as he finally gets on with his life.  This one is a bit harder because it is the first.

The Empire Strikes Back - Yeah, again kinda obvious but it means more than just the Empire actually striking back.  We've got the rebels on the run.  Luke is battered by Vader (the Empire).  Han is betrayed and captured.  Basically, anyone who had a good moment in the previous film is struck back by the Empire or someone associated with them.

Return of the Jedi - Referring to Luke.  But also to Anakin and to a lesser extend, Leia.  This is the weakest of the titles but not a weak title (if you get mah drift).


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## barsoomcore (Mar 26, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I thought the Jedi charge was a Star Wars moment.  It gave me chills.  Maybe that was just me.
> If the reports are to be believed,
> 
> 
> ...



 I sure WANTED it to be. But it didn't. I think that by that point I was too worn out trying to compensate for everything else. Plus it was pretty much a bunch of total strangers charging a bunch of total strangers. There wasn't much emotional investment on my part.

If Anakin vs. Obi-wan doesn't ROCK, there's no excuse. Seriously.

But I am jaded and cynical in all matters that do not revolve around Mary Poppins. Or Winnie-The-Pooh.


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## John Crichton (Mar 26, 2004)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> I sure WANTED it to be. But it didn't. I think that by that point I was too worn out trying to compensate for everything else. Plus it was pretty much a bunch of total strangers charging a bunch of total strangers. There wasn't much emotional investment on my part.



Fair enough on the emotional investment.  I just thought it was _damn cool_.  To me, there is a difference.  



			
				barsoomcore said:
			
		

> If Anakin vs. Obi-wan doesn't ROCK, there's no excuse. Seriously.



Agreed.  However, there is no doubt in my mind that it will rock.  I don't see how it could not.  Lucas does fight scenes very well.  The dialogue will blow but the fights will be great.



			
				barsoomcore said:
			
		

> But I am jaded and cynical in all matters that do not revolve around Mary Poppins. Or Winnie-The-Pooh.



I know.


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## Tonguez (Mar 26, 2004)

I think it should either be called

The Last Chance

or 

The Lost Cause

 - think about it


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## John Crichton (Mar 26, 2004)

Tonguez said:
			
		

> I think it should either be called
> 
> The Last Chance
> 
> ...



 Let's try and keep the Star Wars bashing out of this thread, please...


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## Kai Lord (Mar 26, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Let's try and keep the Star Wars bashing out of this thread, please...



Yeah, there'll be plenty of time for that after Episode III is released.      Seriously though, I'd be absolutely thrilled if Lucas knocked this last one out of the park.  I haven't lost hope.  He *did* give us almost zero Jar Jar in AOTC, and Jango/Boba were obvious nods to the fans.  A lot of big characters are either going to bite the dust or get severely mangled in this next one, so there's definitely the potential for it to be appropriately dramatic.

Sure diminished expectations play a part, but I'm definitely looking forward to it.


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## CrusaderX (Mar 26, 2004)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> I still contend that Ep 1 had the best lightsaber fights and Ep 2 had the best ... the best ... the best ...




The best performance by a former muppet? 

I've been disappointed by the prequels, but I have to admit that I marked out like a true fanboy during the Yoda fight scenes.  So far, that's the one scene in the prequels that gave me a rush and made me feel like a kid again.


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## Taelorn76 (Mar 26, 2004)

I had such high hopes for TPM, and those were crushed horribly. The only thing I like was Darth Maul and the lightsaber scene. Most of my friends were in thrilled with the pod racing and thought that was a high point, I almost fell asleep during that, it just dragged on way to long. For AotC my expectations were alot lower and I thought it was a decent film, a little to much of a love story, but a good movie overall.

I still say *Fall of the Jedi* is a fitting title for episode III.


Here is a what if. 

Say one of the many suggested title posts here accually ends up being the title for episode III. Could that person seek out compensation or do you think Lucas's camp would try to claim it as theirs all along?


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## RangerWickett (Mar 26, 2004)

Defend the prequels if you like, but I doubt anyone can say they were good movies.  There was too much bad about them to make them good.  It'd be like taking half of Die Hard, and half of Gigli, and sticking them together.  It just doesn't work.

What we need are more people with good visions setting out to produce their own stories.  We do not need people clinging to a hope that, "Maybe this next one won't suck."

I'm not bashing Star Wars.  Those movies were good.  These new ones that came out in the past 5 years, bearing their name, have not been good.  They have had moments of quality, but have not been consistent enough for me to support them.

Face it, the only things good about the prequels have been the action sequences.  And if all you want are lightsaber fights, go to the various indy movie sites and download some fan-made ones.


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## John Crichton (Mar 26, 2004)

*sigh*

Again, I'm going to ask that we keep this discussion on title speculation and related things.  Opinions on the Star Wars prequels, originals and special editions have no place here.  I am to blame as well, so I start by pointing the finger (of doom) at myself.

Who's in?  Can we keep opinions about the films themselves for another thread? 

Thanks in advance.


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## RangerWickett (Mar 26, 2004)

Well, then what's to talk about.  There's a rumor, it sucks, we shouldn't believe it.

Dang, I get belligerent when it comes to Star Wars.


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## John Crichton (Mar 26, 2004)

There is plenty to talk about.  Speculation is fun, to me and I suspect many others.


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## Dark Jezter (Mar 26, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *sigh*
> 
> Again, I'm going to ask that we keep this discussion on title speculation and related things.  Opinions on the Star Wars prequels, originals and special editions have no place here.  I am to blame as well, so I start by pointing the finger (of doom) at myself.
> 
> ...



 No, the only fault you made was mentioning Star Wars on a public forum.  It's a sad but true fact that whenever a topic involves Star Wars or George Lucas, it's only a matter of time before the Prequel-haters/Lucas-bashers crawl out of the woodwork, even if you specifically state that the thread isn't for rants.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Mar 26, 2004)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> No, the only fault you made was mentioning Star Wars on a public forum.  It's a sad but true fact that whenever a topic involves Star Wars or George Lucas, it's only a matter of time before the Prequel-haters/Lucas-bashers crawl out of the woodwork, even if you specifically state that the thread isn't for rants.



The same applies for Startrek, Berman & Brannon and Voyager.  

On message boards, we like to rant about these things.


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## Dark Jezter (Mar 26, 2004)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> The same applies for Startrek, Berman & Brannon and Voyager.
> 
> On message boards, we like to rant about these things.



 Don't forget the Matrix.  

*Poster #1:*  "...the new program is called Multistate Anti-Terrorism Information Exchange, or MATRIX."

*Poster #2:*  "Did you say Matrix?  Oh man, the Matrix sequels sucked!  What the hell was up with the ending of Revolutions, and let's not forget the Rave scene in Reloaded, but don't even get me started on..."


----------



## John Crichton (Mar 26, 2004)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> On message boards, we like to rant about these things.



Understood but I reserve the right to try and have the rants get separated from the rest of the conversation.

We aren't savages.  Okay, well we are but still...

Savages with keyboards.  Yay.  :\


----------



## Chingerspy (Mar 26, 2004)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> I don't get it.




TAT = rubbish. Must be one of out British phrases 

However I don't dare pass comment on something I haven't seen myself. Just bad karma


----------



## Tonguez (Mar 26, 2004)

Actually I'm looking forward to Ep III and the Natalie Portman nude scene just before the Anakin-Amidala sex scene that results in Luke and Leia

Plus we get to see how Vadir got all scarred up and grew 3 feet taller


----------



## Welverin (Mar 26, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Let's try and keep the Star Wars bashing out of this thread, please...




You were about three pages late with that one.



			
				Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Most of my friends were in thrilled with the pod racing and thought that was a high point, I almost fell asleep during that, it just dragged on way to long.




Maybe you need to like Nascar or other some other kind of racing. I don't and feel the same way about that part of the movie.



			
				Tonguez said:
			
		

> Actually I'm looking forward to Ep III and the Natalie Portman nude scene just before the Anakin-Amidala sex scene that results in Luke and Leia




I'm sure there's a lot of praying for that at least.


----------



## Pielorinho (Mar 26, 2004)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> "The Creeping Fear"... I don't know what to say. On the one hand, it sounds like the name of a SW book, and not the movie, but "A New Hope" sounds like it too...



Err...not to be a self-pitying nancyboy, but did y'all miss my link that pretty much completely debunks the rumor?  As in, it turns out that a band is releasing an album called "The Creeping Fear" on April Fool's Day, and is almost certainly behind the rumor, inasmuch as it's generating all kinds of free publicity for their release?

Daniel


----------



## VirgilCaine (Mar 26, 2004)

> Now that's something SW related I think was bad.




_The Right Hand of Darth Vader_.

*Worst. SW Book. Ever.*


----------



## Taelorn76 (Mar 26, 2004)

Welverin said:
			
		

> Maybe you need to like Nascar or other some other kind of racing. I don't and feel the same way about that part of the movie.




I accually do enjoy Nascar , can't watch a _whole_ race but in 20 - 30 mins bursts it's fun to watch.



			
				John Crichton said:
			
		

> Who's in?  Can we keep opinions about the films themselves for another thread?



Alright, alright you win, but that just means people won't have much else to say  

*Fall of the Jedi* 

If I repeat it often enough that will be the one people remember the most.


----------



## Welverin (Mar 26, 2004)

VirgilCaine said:
			
		

> _The Right Hand of Darth Vader_.
> 
> *Worst. SW Book. Ever.*




I suspect you have the wrong name. It rings no bells and searching hasn't turned anything up.


----------



## Pielorinho (Mar 26, 2004)

I think he's getting it confused with that famous Star Wars novel _The Left Hand of Darkness_.  Simple mistake, really.

Daniel


----------



## mojo1701 (Mar 27, 2004)

I think that George Lucas gets drunk every night, while reading messageboards as to what fans want, and instead, puts what they don't want. And laughs about it.

Either he's drunk or Jar Jar was...


----------



## CrusaderX (Mar 28, 2004)

Nuclear Platypus said:
			
		

> I was thinking Anakin becomes Darth Vader at the end of the Clone Wars microseries, especially since there's a teaser of him and who appears to be Mace Windu in a duel.




I think Anakin is fighting the Sith chick Asajj Ventress in the Clone Wars teaser, not Mace.

Blame their bald heads on the confusion.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Mar 28, 2004)

Welverin said:
			
		

> I suspect you have the wrong name. It rings no bells and searching hasn't turned anything up.



 He could mean that young adult novel, The Glove of Vader...


----------



## RangerWickett (Mar 28, 2004)

I'm really hoping they didn't actually name a Star Wars book 'The Left Hand of Darkness,' and that you were just joking.  Because 'The Left Hand of Darkness' _is_ a famous book, but it ain't got nothin' to do with Star Wars.


----------



## mattcolville (Mar 29, 2004)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> I like Revenge of the Sith since it gives a nice nod to the whole Revenge of the Jedi rumblings before Episode VI came out.




Yeah, but what do the Sith have to get revenge for??

Mind you, the idea that it doesn't make sense isn't a good reason for it not to be a title


----------



## Kai Lord (Mar 29, 2004)

mattcolville said:
			
		

> Yeah, but what do the Sith have to get revenge for??



Ask Darth Maul.  "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we will have revenge..."


----------



## Welverin (Mar 29, 2004)

mattcolville said:
			
		

> Yeah, but what do the Sith have to get revenge for??




The fact they used to be as numerous as the Jedi, at leasat until the Jedi combined with their own evilness whittled them down so far the rule of two was instituted. That's EU reasoning, not sure if George decided on something different.

So I could easily see them use stupid bad guy reasoning to lay all the blame on the jedi.


----------



## Kai Lord (Mar 30, 2004)

New over at theforce.net:



> In addition to the previous theories (click here and here), a couple of readers have found another source for the rumoured Episode III title, 'The Creeping Fear'. Tom sends in the following:
> I was doing some reading this evening and came across a possible source for "The Creeping Fear" title we've been hearing about. Get a hold of the paperback edition of The Art of Star Wars - Episode II: Attack of the Clones, written by Mark Cotta Vaz. Go to page 7 and read the final sentence of Vaz's introduction, written in September of 2001:
> *"And the galactic guardians cloistered in the Jedi Temple are feeling the creeping fear -- the growing power of the dark side."*
> 
> I would say that either Mr. Vaz, the author, had the inside scoop, or one of the countless fans who have read this publication has picked up on the phrase and ran with it.



I'm gonna go with Door #2.


----------



## John Crichton (Mar 30, 2004)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> I'm gonna go with Door #2.



Not a bad name pull either way, considering the source.

I'm definately not too keen on "Revenge of the Sith."  Sure, it works as a contrast to "Return of the Jedi" but it doesn't work with the movie plotline.  Darth Maul does mention a revenge on the Jedi and we know that Sith and Jedi have been enemies for some time but unless we get some more backstory (forget the EU, it doesn't count for the films) it doesn't make much sense.


----------



## Pielorinho (Mar 30, 2004)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I'm really hoping they didn't actually name a Star Wars book 'The Left Hand of Darkness,' and that you were just joking. Because 'The Left Hand of Darkness' _is_ a famous book, but it ain't got nothin' to do with Star Wars.



You can get Pielorinho in stick or roll-on, that's how dry my wit is.

Daniel
aka "Left Hand of Dorkness" on another messageboard


----------



## Blue_Kryptonite (Mar 30, 2004)

I'd like to see it called "Revenge of the Jedi". Why? It goes back to the original title of Return of the Jedi, and the reason it was changed. Anakin gettting his revenge lead to the fall of the Jedi.







Plus, it has a pleasing flow with the original trilogy:

The Phantom Menace -  A New Hope
Attack of the Clones  -  The Empire Strikes  Back
Revenge of the Jedi   -  Return of the Jedi

Just my two hundred New Republic Centiredits.


----------



## John Crichton (Mar 30, 2004)

Dr. Anomalous said:
			
		

> I'd like to see it called "Revenge of the Jedi". Why? It goes back to the original title of Return of the Jedi, and the reason it was changed. Anakin gettting his revenge lead to the fall of the Jedi.



As long as he has something to actually get revenge for, I can dig the title.  But there is nothing so far for him to revenge.  Against the Jedi?  No, he wanted to go and chose to try and join them.  I guess in his twisted head it could be against Obi-wan but it just doesn't jibe well with the prequel naming convention so far.  Lucas has gone the more cryptic route and I expect it to continue here.  

I don't see any of the names (Creeping Fear, Rise of the Empire and so on) actually being the title because as someone mentioned before this would be an unprecedented early leak.  But, being a fun speculation thread I would rule out Revenge of the Jedi for the reasons I mentioned above.  It _is_ cool for nostalgic purposes but I just don't see it.


----------



## Kai Lord (Mar 30, 2004)

Dr. Anomalous said:
			
		

> I'd like to see it called "Revenge of the Jedi". Why? It goes back to the original title of Return of the Jedi, and the reason it was changed.



Then I hope they decide on "Star Wars Episode III: Blue Harvest".


----------



## barsoomcore (Mar 30, 2004)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> I hope they decide on "Star Wars Episode III: Blue Harvest"



Yeah, baby.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Mar 30, 2004)

Dr. Anomalous said:
			
		

> I'd like to see it called "Revenge of the Jedi". Why? It goes back to the original title of Return of the Jedi, and the reason it was changed. Anakin gettting his revenge lead to the fall of the Jedi.




Which leads to what I said all along _Fall of the Jedi_.
1. Anakin falls to the darkside 
2. Jedi fall into oblivion   

Also this could have been a successful leak and George could just change the title now and we would nnot be aware of it.


----------



## John Crichton (Mar 30, 2004)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Which leads to what I said all along _Fall of the Jedi_.
> 1. Anakin falls to the darkside
> 2. Jedi fall into oblivion



"Fall of the Jedi," that works for me.  It works in the same way that "Balance of the Force" works for me.  I always liked how the prophecy of Anakin being the one to "bring balance" was looked at as a positive thing, at least Qui-gon seemed to think so.  When in reality, the prophecy will come through and it will be a cleansing.  Anakin will bring balance by basically leaving 2 Jedi and 2 Sith alive when all is said and done.  "Balance of the Force" is my favorite at the moment (I think someone else mentioned it but I've been thinking that could be a title since Episode One).




			
				Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Also this could have been a succesfull leak and George could just change the title now and we would nnot be aware of it.



I wouldn't be surprised if this were the case.  But more likely than not it is just a hoax or propaganda, like mp3s with beeps or repeats.  Not that I know anything about those things...


----------



## Taelorn76 (Mar 31, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> "Fall of the Jedi," that works for me.  It works in the same way that "Balance of the Force" works for me.  I always liked how the prophecy of Anakin being the one to "bring balance" was looked at as a positive thing, at least Qui-gon seemed to think so.  When in reality, the prophecy will come through and it will be a cleansing.  Anakin will bring balance by basically leaving 2 Jedi and 2 Sith alive when all is said and done.  "Balance of the Force" is my favorite at the moment (I think someone else mentioned it but I've been thinking that could be a title since Episode One).




I am still sticking with my pick _Fall of the Empire_ (shameless plug   ), but _Balance of the Force_ does sound good with that explanation.


----------



## Welverin (Mar 31, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> "Fall of the Jedi," that works for me.  It works in the same way that "Balance of the Force" works for me.  I always liked how the prophecy of Anakin being the one to "bring balance" was looked at as a positive thing, at least Qui-gon seemed to think so.  When in reality, the prophecy will come through and it will be a cleansing.  Anakin will bring balance by basically leaving 2 Jedi and 2 Sith alive when all is said and done.  "Balance of the Force" is my favorite at the moment (I think someone else mentioned it but I've been thinking that could be a title since Episode One).




Except you're assuming that when Lucas says balance (through the characters) that he means an equal number of Jedi and Sith, and what's your reasoning and support for that? It doesn't have to be refering to that.


----------



## John Crichton (Apr 1, 2004)

Welverin said:
			
		

> Except you're assuming that when Lucas says balance (through the characters) that he means an equal number of Jedi and Sith, and what's your reasoning and support for that? It doesn't have to be refering to that.



 Balance could mean either of 2 things:  Either a balance of power or a balance of numbers.  Both essentially happen.

The only 2 Jedi left after the purge are Obi-wan and Yoda.  Both are powerful Masters but are in exile.  The Emperor and Darth Vader are the remaining Sith.  I would say that the 2, combined, are equal in power.  Yoda is about the same as Palpatine and Vader and Obi-wan are about the same.  Sure, one may be just a little bit more powerful because of their position (that would be the Sith) but the Force ignores that.

So, in both in number and in mastery of the Force things are balanced after the Jedi Purge.

And I do think there is a bit more to the whole 'balance' thing than that but it's the best I can come up with based only on the films, not that I would want to reference anything else.


----------



## Welverin (Apr 1, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Balance could mean either of 2 things:  Either a balance of power or a balance of numbers.  Both essentially happen.
> >snip<




This is what I meant by assuming you know what Lucas means by balancing the force. While it makes sense to a normal person, or maybe just gamers/D&D players, but it doesn't seem to be what's implied in the movies.
I'll go back to my spinning plate analogy from a while back. So imagine you're happily spinning a plate on your finger, it's perfectly balancing and spinning real good and then some bully wanders by and decides to throw some mashed potatoes onto your plate and all of a sudden it's thrown out of balance and falls off your finger.

The plate represents the force and the mashed potatoes represent the sith (or other darksiders), the sith are like a stain on the force and their presence gums up the works, eliminate them and everything is ok.

This works well with what we've learned from the movies and maintains the prophecy and Anakins place within it. When he turns away from the darkside and kills Palpatine he destroys the remaining sith and cleanses the force. After all the only canon sith are Sidious, Maul, Tyranus, and Vader. Maul and Sidious we know die along with Vader after his redemption, and it?s safe to assume Tyranus will as well.


----------



## John Crichton (Apr 1, 2004)

Welverin said:
			
		

> This is what I meant by assuming you know what Lucas means by balancing the force. While it makes sense to a normal person, or maybe just gamers/D&D players, but it doesn't seem to be what's implied in the movies.
> I'll go back to my spinning plate analogy from a while back. So imagine you're happily spinning a plate on your finger, it's perfectly balancing and spinning real good and then some bully wanders by and decides to throw some mashed potatoes onto your plate and all of a sudden it's thrown out of balance and falls off your finger.
> 
> The plate represents the force and the mashed potatoes represent the sith (or other darksiders), the sith are like a stain on the force and their presence gums up the works, eliminate them and everything is ok.



Perhaps I am misreading you (entirely possible) here - I don't understand where this balance conversation is going.  It sounds like we are agreeing but then I don't get the original point.  Pardon my idiocy for a moment and humor me.   


			
				Welverin said:
			
		

> This works well with what we've learned from the movies and maintains the prophecy and Anakins place within it. When he turns away from the darkside and kills Palpatine he destroys the remaining sith and cleanses the force. After all the only canon sith are Sidious, Maul, Tyranus, and Vader. Maul and Sidious we know die along with Vader after his redemption, and it?s safe to assume Tyranus will as well.



That's the beauty of the Chosen One prophecy.  Most folks think it's talking about Vader killing Palpatine.  I think this is false as it doesn't bring balance.  With no Sith, the balance is still off.  There must be Light & Dark.  The lack of one throws things off track.  So the prophecy is referring to the Jedi Purge (I think) and not Vader betraying Palpatine.  I could be wrong (the 3rd film should answer this) but that's one of the ways I like to think of it.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Apr 1, 2004)

Welverin said:
			
		

> The plate represents the force and the mashed potatoes represent the sith (or other darksiders), the sith are like a stain on the force and their presence gums up the works, eliminate them and everything is ok.




I would have to agree with what John was saying. You can not have balance in the force without a darkside. By your theory, if all Jedi were destroyed then there would be balance as well. A way I like to look at it is if there was no evil, how would we know what is good? You need one to keep the other in check(balance). Now does it mean the balance is two jedi and two sith, who knows? Will we really ever find out? I hope so, but that is all up to George.

_Fall of the Jedi_


----------



## Desdichado (Apr 1, 2004)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> I would have to agree with what John was saying. You can not have balance in the force without a darkside. By your theory, if all Jedi were destroyed then there would be balance as well. A way I like to look at it is if there was no evil, how would we know what is good? You need one to keep the other in check(balance). Now does it mean the balance is two jedi and two sith, who knows? Will we really ever find out? I hope so, but that is all up to George.



The Star Wars stories have always been about good overcoming evil, not about the need for some cosmic "balance" between good and evil.  I think the spinning plate analogy is probably the one that Lucas will use.  The Dark Side inherently unbalances the Force, the light side is already balanced.  The Jedi have always been about finding their balance; their spiritual center, so to speak.  The very presence of the Dark Side threatens the balance of the force.


----------



## Welverin (Apr 2, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> The Star Wars stories have always been about good overcoming evil, not about the need for some cosmic "balance" between good and evil.  I think the spinning plate analogy is probably the one that Lucas will use.  The Dark Side inherently unbalances the Force, the light side is already balanced.  The Jedi have always been about finding their balance; their spiritual center, so to speak.  The very presence of the Dark Side threatens the balance of the force.




See, Joshua gets it!

John, I don't fault your logic, it makes sense to me, but it's not where Lucas seems to be going with things. I was simply trying to provide an explanation tat fits how things are viewed in the movies, and an even number of darksiders and light siders doesn't seem to fit.

Remember that in Ep1&2 there's a definite implication that things have only got bad recently (if not outright stated), which means they were perfectly fine for a thousand years or so with a drasctic difference in numbers.


----------



## d4 (Apr 2, 2004)

here's another analogy along the lines of the spinning plate:

you are walking across a very narrow bridge. if you have balance, that doesn't mean you are 50% on the bridge and 50% falling off -- it means you are firmly on the bridge. (on the bridge = following the Light Side, falling off = following the Dark Side.)

similarly, if your body is "balanced," it doesn't mean you are 50% healthy and 50% sick. it means you are completely healthy. likewise, if someone is mentally balanced, it doesn't mean they are 50% sane and 50% crazy; it means they are completely sane.

when i hear the Jedi talking about "bringing balance to the Force" what i get out of it is bringing a sense of harmony, peace, serenity to the Force. in other words, reducing or eliminating the power of the Dark Side. it doesn't (to me) sound like they are talking about making sure the Light and Dark Sides are equally powerful or represented.


----------



## John Crichton (Apr 2, 2004)

Welverin said:
			
		

> John, I don't fault your logic, it makes sense to me, but it's not where Lucas seems to be going with things. I was simply trying to provide an explanation tat fits how things are viewed in the movies, and an even number of darksiders and light siders doesn't seem to fit.



Ah, okay.  I understand what you were getting at now.  I was confuzzled.

Allow me to expand upon my point.  

Lucas' intent may not be what I am saying about balance.  However, the byproduct still works.  Whether or not he meant for the prophecy to mean that the number of Sith and Jedi would even out or not, it still ends up that way.  It may not be at the end of Episode III, but A New Hope supports the theory.

Despite what I think the public thinks about Lucas and Star Wars, it's not a light-hearted romp where good always defeats evil.  There is a definite darkness to the story and while *Empire Strikes Back* was dark, Episode III should be darkest.  The fall of Anakin Skywalker gives life to the original trilogy.  Without Vader, those movies don't exist.



			
				Welverin said:
			
		

> Remember that in Ep1&2 there's a definite implication that things have only got bad recently (if not outright stated), which means they were perfectly fine for a thousand years or so with a drasctic difference in numbers.



I agree that things had been going pretty well for the Republic but the rot that destroys it I'm sure has been going on for at least a 1/2 century.  The senators have been squabbling with each other for a bit and the Jedi have been blind to it all.

So the balance will certainly happen in the form of the Purge.  The power and influence will even out.  And while I do agree that the movies may imply that the darkside unbalances thing, I do think it can be looked at 2 different ways, the other being what I've been saying here.  That is one of the cool things about the story, to me.  The strength has always been there in that reguard.


----------



## Desdichado (Apr 2, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Despite what I think the public thinks about Lucas and Star Wars, it's not a light-hearted romp where good always defeats evil.  There is a definite darkness to the story and while *Empire Strikes Back* was dark, Episode III should be darkest.  The fall of Anakin Skywalker gives life to the original trilogy.  Without Vader, those movies don't exist.



No, but it is about the _ultimate_ triumph of good over evil.  In keeping with the "mythological" slant Lucas says he was going for all along (personally I think that's a crock of sh!+, in his earlier interviews, he talked about trying to follow the old Saturday matinee serials, and only later did he start talking about Joseph Campbell and mythological cycles.)  Regardless, serial or myth, good eventually conquers evil.  Star Wars is not grim and gritty, it's firmly on the swashbuckling heroics side of things 


			
				JC said:
			
		

> I agree that things had been going pretty well for the Republic but the rot that destroys it I'm sure has been going on for at least a 1/2 century.  The senators have been squabbling with each other for a bit and the Jedi have been blind to it all.
> 
> So the balance will certainly happen in the form of the Purge.  The power and influence will even out.  And while I do agree that the movies may imply that the darkside unbalances thing, I do think it can be looked at 2 different ways, the other being what I've been saying here.  That is one of the cool things about the story, to me.  The strength has always been there in that reguard.



I think that's a theme as well; the corruption within the Republic is reminiscent (probably on purpose) of the fading of the Roman Empire in terms of a gradual slump into decadance and corruption.  Where exactly the Jedi fit into that is unsure, but certainly they have been ineffectual to stop it, and they needed to be removed from the equation to complete the transformation of the corrupt Republic into the Empire.

However, I think the real reason for the near elimination of the Jedi is something George Lucas himself has said many times; the "middle act" is always where you put the heroes in the darkest, worst predicament imaginable, in which you can't see how they get out.  And then in the final acts, they do anyway.  The elimination of the Jedi in the "middle act" of the grander scheme of things (all six movies together) accomplishes that goal very nicely.


----------



## John Crichton (Apr 2, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> No, but it is about the _ultimate_ triumph of good over evil. In keeping with the "mythological" slant Lucas says he was going for all along (personally I think that's a crock of sh!+, in his earlier interviews, he talked about trying to follow the old Saturday matinee serials, and only later did he start talking about Joseph Campbell and mythological cycles.) Regardless, serial or myth, good eventually conquers evil. Star Wars is not grim and gritty, it's firmly on the swashbuckling heroics side of things.



I totally agree about good winning out in the end.  We already know how it ends, good wins.  But good will not win the at the end of Episode III, and that's all I'm talking about with the whole balance thing.  As far as the Campbell stuff goes, I've only read some of his writing so I'm no expert but it seems that it follows the path of the Hero pretty well.  I could be wrong.

And I wasn't saying that Star Wars is grim and gritty.  I'm saying that is has a darkness to it that many people don't acknowledge.  That darkness will be fully realized, IMO in this final prequel chapter.  It's already being advertised as such by Lucas.  I fully admit that I may be reading into things a bit, but that is part of the fun of this.  I also think that the movies stand up pretty well to being viewed from multiple angles.  This could, again, just be me.  



			
				Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I think that's a theme as well; the corruption within the Republic is reminiscent (probably on purpose) of the fading of the Roman Empire in terms of a gradual slump into decadance and corruption. Where exactly the Jedi fit into that is unsure, but certainly they have been ineffectual to stop it, and they needed to be removed from the equation to complete the transformation of the corrupt Republic into the Empire.
> 
> However, I think the real reason for the near elimination of the Jedi is something George Lucas himself has said many times; the "middle act" is always where you put the heroes in the darkest, worst predicament imaginable, in which you can't see how they get out. And then in the final acts, they do anyway. The elimination of the Jedi in the "middle act" of the grander scheme of things (all six movies together) accomplishes that goal very nicely.



I can't wait.  The Purge is what I've been waiting to see since I first learned of it, oh so many years ago.  So, in keeping with the prequel trilogy's somewhat obtuse titles, "Balance of the Force" could very well work.  I don't think it will actually be that, but in my mind and to my reasoning it all makes sense.  And this is some of the fun of it.  The speculation and mystery has always been one of my favorite things about Star Wars.  It's too bad I wasn't old enough to do it for the original trilogy.


----------



## Desdichado (Apr 2, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I totally agree about good winning out in the end.  We already know how it ends, good wins.  But good will not win the at the end of Episode III, and that's all I'm talking about with the whole balance thing.  As far as the Campbell stuff goes, I've only read some of his writing so I'm no expert but it seems that it follows the path of the Hero pretty well.  I could be wrong.



Yeah, but I'm not really convinced that it does so on purpose.  Then again, I'm also not much of a fan of Campbell's thesis.  I think it's almost too vague; it's too easy to fit stories into the Campbell Path of the Hero.  It's just a requirement of good storytelling that many of his commonalities will occur. 


			
				JC said:
			
		

> And I wasn't saying that Star Wars is grim and gritty.  I'm saying that is has a darkness to it that many people don't acknowledge.  That darkness will be fully realized, IMO in this final prequel chapter.  It's already being advertised as such by Lucas.  I fully admit that I may be reading into things a bit, but that is part of the fun of this.  I also think that the movies stand up pretty well to being viewed from multiple angles.  This could, again, just be me.



Oh, I agree.  I wasn't trying to imply that you were saying Star Wars was Grim and Gritty, especially after the big thread of a week or two ago on Grim and Gritty.    I don't know that the darkness is not acknowledged, though.  It's been hard to not acknowledge that there's a darkness in the Star Wars movies from the very beginning, and Empire really clinched it.


			
				JC said:
			
		

> I can't wait.  The Purge is what I've been waiting to see since I first learned of it, oh so many years ago.  So, in keeping with the prequel trilogy's somewhat obtuse titles, "Balance of the Force" could very well work.  I don't think it will actually be that, but in my mind and to my reasoning it all makes sense.  And this is some of the fun of it.  The speculation and mystery has always been one of my favorite things about Star Wars.  It's too bad I wasn't old enough to do it for the original trilogy.



I agree, it is fun.  I still think Rise of the Empire is the best title I've heard, though.  Maybe it's simply too obvious, and Lucas won't pick it for that reason.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Apr 2, 2004)

How d4 and Joshua explained the balance thing makes more sense to me the the spinning plate example (sorry Welverin), and I can see the that point of view. But I think we will need to agree to disagree because I see validity in John's point of balance in equal numbers. 

He touched on an example of that in A New Hope. There were two of each, Palpatine, Vader  and Obi-Wan, Yoda. Luke begins his training to be a Jedi,that brings it up to 3 vs 2, and what happens good old Obi-wan dies, bringing making it all even(balanced) angain.


As for the purge of the Jedi in the next movie, just makes my choice for a title all the more fitting. _Fall of the Jedi_


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## Welverin (Apr 3, 2004)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> How d4 and Joshua explained the balance thing makes more sense to me the the spinning plate example (sorry Welverin),




No need to apologize.



> and I can see the that point of view. But I think we will need to agree to disagree because I see validity in John's point of balance in equal numbers.




It's not that John's idea has no validity, it fits in it's own way, it just doesn't seem to be where Lucas is going and is hampered by the fact that prior Palaptine's rise in power and influence and with his death the balance in numbers no longer exists. That leaves a whole lot of unresolvedness floating around and makes Anakin the one who destroys the balance, I'd also give Palapatine more credit for wiping out the jedi.


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## Taelorn76 (Apr 4, 2004)

Just running with the whole balance in numbers theme. 

What if the Jedi thought there was balance in the Force when they out numbered the Sith, but in reality it was severly off balance. Hence Anakin helps usher in the Jedi purge bringing it down to the numbers mentioned before and thus balancing the Force.  

It's late, I'm tired and I hope this still makes sense in the morning.  

damn I forgot to pimp my title
_Fall of the Jedi_


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## morrolan (Apr 4, 2004)

Put me in the camp of liking both theories.  A little from column a, a little from column b.  

For all practical purposes, I think the spinning plate/healthy body analogy is what most people assume to be the case.  After all, Star Wars is nothing if not a pulpy black and white in it  morality.  

But John's argument has some very definite merits.  Remember, the Sith found it necessary to 'balance' their own faction by maintaining a constant of 2 members, Master and Apprentice.  This was partly to stop corruption/infighting inside the Sith, and partly to maintain secrecy.

The Jedi pre purge have the same problems with corruption.  Someone is running around behind their backs, ordering up Clone armies.  Dooku led a group of Jedi in defection, himself turning to the Dark Side.  Even Qui-Gon was chafing at the control of the Temple.

So by the end of Episode 6, the Jedi have done just what the Sith did (albeit, not of their own volition).  Two left, Luke and Leia, Master and Apprentice.  And as a nice bonus, the Sith are gone, removing the cancer from the body-politic.  And hey, any coincidence that a pair of orphaned twins founded Rome?

oh, btw; my vote for title: Mask of the Sith.


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## smetzger (Apr 5, 2004)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Hell, I still think "The Phantom Menace" is iffy, and yes, "Attack of the Clones" just bleeping bleeps!




I agree, this is probably for real since is bites just as much as the other two.


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## John Crichton (Apr 5, 2004)

Welverin said:
			
		

> It's not that John's idea has no validity, it fits in it's own way, it just doesn't seem to be where Lucas is going and is hampered by the fact that prior Palaptine's rise in power and influence and with his death the balance in numbers no longer exists. That leaves a whole lot of unresolvedness floating around and makes Anakin the one who destroys the balance, I'd also give Palapatine more credit for wiping out the jedi.



Yeah, Welverin certainly sees where I'm going with this.  

I'm going from the angle of general irony and darkness, where one of the most powerful Jedi (Qui-gon) thinks that this Chosen One and prophecy are a boon and it actually turns out to have a sick double meaning.  Yes, Anakin does bring balance: in numbers and power by evening out the Jedi and the Sith.  And then he does it again by bringing peace (another view of balance) to the Force by eliminating the last of the current Sith.  In either case it is fleeting and the balance only happens for a short period of time.

The beauty of it is (as mentioned), Palpatine.  He is the great manipulator.  Does he twist the prophecy?  Does he even know about it?  He certainly has a great influence over the events.  Was this prophecy actually a Jedi prophecy or did it come from so far in the past that it pre-dates the Jedi and would even come from one who dabbled in the dark side (like Luke) but is still a master?

Even before it was brought up in the comics and EU, I've always wondered if Palpatine saw his own death.  He was very powerful and could see many things.  The Dark Side (as it always does) did betray him in the end in the form of his pupil.  That is a wonderful twist that is already there.


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## CrusaderX (Apr 5, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Yeah, but I'm not really convinced that it does so on purpose.  Then again, I'm also not much of a fan of Campbell's thesis.  I think it's almost too vague; it's too easy to fit stories into the Campbell Path of the Hero.  It's just a requirement of good storytelling that many of his commonalities will occur.




Campbell's thesis is extremely vague.  Just about _any_ story can be made to fit into it.  There was a thread on these boards awhile back that illustrated this perfectly, by showing how the *Rocky II* movie could be an example of Campbell's thesis, complete with appropriate roles for Rocky, Mickey, and Mr. T.


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## Felikeries (Apr 5, 2004)

dark episode ....dark title

"Damnation for the Fallen"

"Darker Forces:The Invocationing"

though really with the droids about and so on

"Battle Time Robowar:Beyond the Light Side of the Force"


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## mojo1701 (Apr 6, 2004)

Episode III: The final one 'cuz George Lucas is getting old and senile.


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## David Howery (Apr 8, 2004)

Suppose it'll be called, "Star Wars: This One Will Be Good...Really!"?

I've wondered if ol' George might not spring one more SW movie on us after Ep. 3, even though it would be out of numerical sequence.  I'm no expert on the SW timeline, but it seems to me there is a huge gap between 3 and 4 where lots of stuff happens.  At the end of 3, Anakin turns to evil, and the Empire is just starting up.  At the beginning of 4, Luke is already an adult, and the rebellion has been going on for some time.  The intro to 4 mentions the rebels striking out from a hidden base and winning their first victory.  Plus, the Death Star is being built between the movies,  and the plans for it get stolen and given to Leia.  So, all this makes me wonder if an out of sequence movie might be done showing all this stuff....


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## CrusaderX (Apr 8, 2004)

David Howery said:
			
		

> Suppose it'll be called, "Star Wars: This One Will Be Good...Really!"?
> 
> I've wondered if ol' George might not spring one more SW movie on us after Ep. 3, even though it would be out of numerical sequence.  I'm no expert on the SW timeline, but it seems to me there is a huge gap between 3 and 4 where lots of stuff happens.  At the end of 3, Anakin turns to evil, and the Empire is just starting up.  At the beginning of 4, Luke is already an adult, and the rebellion has been going on for some time.  The intro to 4 mentions the rebels striking out from a hidden base and winning their first victory.  Plus, the Death Star is being built between the movies,  and the plans for it get stolen and given to Leia.  So, all this makes me wonder if an out of sequence movie might be done showing all this stuff....




Actually, there's rumors of a Star Wars TV show covering this period.


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## d4 (Apr 9, 2004)

David Howery said:
			
		

> I've wondered if ol' George might not spring one more SW movie on us after Ep. 3, even though it would be out of numerical sequence.  I'm no expert on the SW timeline, but it seems to me there is a huge gap between 3 and 4 where lots of stuff happens.



Star Wars Episode 3.5?


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## cignus_pfaccari (Apr 9, 2004)

I doubt it'd be _The Creeping Fear_; that'd've made sense for Episode 2, since it fit with the events of that movie and continued the theme from Episode 1, but when Episode 3 deals with the wholesale slaughter of the Jedi order...no.  That's a fear that just isn't creeping.

_Revenge of the Sith_ and _Fall of the Jedi_ work for me, though.

Brad


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## Taelorn76 (Apr 9, 2004)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> I doubt it'd be _The Creeping Fear_; that'd've made sense for Episode 2, since it fit with the events of that movie and continued the theme from Episode 1, but when Episode 3 deals with the wholesale slaughter of the Jedi order...no.  That's a fear that just isn't creeping.
> 
> _Revenge of the Sith_ and _Fall of the Jedi_ work for me, though.
> 
> Brad





YES thats 2 votes for _Fall of the Jedi_. Slowly building momentum.


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## John Crichton (Apr 9, 2004)

Anyone think this is a good time to put up a poll for this?  

I'll post one after I get a few responses so I don't miss anyone's title guess.  I'm only going to post the ones that people will actually think can be the title.  Okay, we have so far:

The Creeping Fear
Fall of the Jedi
Balance of the Force
Rise of the Empire
Revenge of the Sith
Mask of the Sith
Fall of the Republic

Any I missed?


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## milotha (Apr 9, 2004)

Episode III: This Isn't the Movie You're Looking For.

I'm probably never even going to bother to see it after the first two.  Years of therapy might get me to forget they were ever even made.


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## mojo1701 (Apr 10, 2004)

milotha said:
			
		

> Episode III: This Isn't the Movie Your Looking For.
> 
> I'm probably never even going to bother to see it after the first two.  Years of therapy might get me to forget they were ever even made.




Don't forget to add the: *waves hand*.


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## Kai Lord (Apr 10, 2004)

After seeing the characters and situations in the Clone Wars cartoon that are setting up and will be appearing in the next movie, all I can say is one thing:  I'm there, opening weekend, ticket sold.

If it sucks, oh well, but damn, if Lucas pulls it off, that's going to be one hell of a finale to the saga.  General Grievous, the Sith chick, the Jedi Temple, the now appropriately established badasses of Mace Windu and Kit Fisto, along with all the other Jedi and Count Dooku all meeting their end, climaxing with the Vader/Obi-Wan lightsaber showdown.  I'm cautiously optimistic, but I can't help but think we're all going to be utterly blown away.


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## mojo1701 (Apr 11, 2004)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> After seeing the characters and situations in the Clone Wars cartoon that are setting up and will be appearing in the next movie, all I can say is one thing:  I'm there, opening weekend, ticket sold.




Same here. I'm generally easy to please, especially at the beginning. I start to re-evaluate movies and shows later on.



> If it sucks, oh well, but damn, if Lucas pulls it off, that's going to be one hell of a finale to the saga.  General Grievous, the Sith chick, the Jedi Temple, the now appropriately established badasses of Mace Windu and Kit Fisto, along with all the other Jedi and Count Dooku all meeting their end, climaxing with the Vader/Obi-Wan lightsaber showdown.  I'm cautiously optimistic, but I can't help but think we're all going to be utterly blown away.




That was probably his plan all along... Making us think it's gonna suck so that when our last hopes are crushed... BAM! Instant great movie!

I only wish that I'd thought of that myself...


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## Taelorn76 (Apr 11, 2004)

Some evidence that the title for the Episode III will be _Fall of the Jedi_. 

Follow the link  Clone Wars. click on "click here to relaunch site", then pick either side of the force and look for the window with General Grevous. And it says "The _Fall of the Jedi_ begins".


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## RangerWickett (Apr 11, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Any I missed?




Star Wars: Episode III: The Rise and Fall of the Galactic Republic, with Lightsabers.


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