# The new off-topic forum



## Heretic Apostate (Dec 3, 2003)

The new off-topic forum has me very confused.  I'm not sure what I should be posting there.

If I post something off-topic there, wouldn't that be then on-topic for the forum, thus making it ineligible for an off-topic forum?

Or worse, what if I post something on-topic, which would make it off-topic for the forum, and thus in the correct place?

I am _so confused_!!!

(Note:  this is my feeble attempt to recreate my post from the last time the mods were thinking of creating an off-topic thread...  if the original is saved somewhere, I'd appreciate seeing it again   It's one of the few times I've caused several people to fall out of their chairs laughing...)


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## Morrus (Dec 3, 2003)

I think the forum needs a better name.


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## Hypersmurf (Dec 3, 2003)

Wait... what?

An Off-Topic forum at ENWorld?

But I thought...?

-Hyp.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Dec 3, 2003)

You're right Hypersmurf.  The Dark Times have come.  

EN World - It was fun while it lasted.


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## johnsemlak (Dec 3, 2003)

I sympathize with HA.  One thing about OT posts is that many OT posts aren't all that OT anyway (e.g. the recent posts about the Roman D20).  Of couse blantently OT stuff about news items, sports, etc. are more obvious.

I personally never thought OT posts in Gen Discussion was a problem and thought it was a nice community aspect.


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## Buttercup (Dec 3, 2003)

As a refuge from BG Dungeon some years back, I fear what an off-topic forum will do to EN World.  Of course, this place is much better run than BG Dungeon ever was. 

Still, I won't be posting in it.  I agree that the occaisonal off topic post in General wasn't a problem.  Or rather, usually wasn't.  Now and then it got out of hand, and the mods took care of it.


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## Knight Otu (Dec 3, 2003)

Well, it is supposed to be a two-week experiment. I'm fine with it, as long as it goes away after the two weeks.


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## Tom Cashel (Dec 3, 2003)

How about..if you don't like it, don't go there and don't post there and don't read it?


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## Piratecat (Dec 3, 2003)

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> How about..if you don't like it, don't go there and don't post there and don't read it?




One of our concerns is how a forum like this might change the inherent nature of EN World. We're monitoring this closely, and will welcome feedback.


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## EricNoah (Dec 3, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> We're monitoring this closely...




_Very_ closely.  In fact, we'll need a DNA sample from everyone.  Please send to 

EN World
Behind the Hot Water Pipes
Third Washroom Along
Victoria Station


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## alsih2o (Dec 3, 2003)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> _Very_ closely.  In fact, we'll need a DNA sample from everyone.  Please send to
> 
> EN World
> Behind the Hot Water Pipes
> ...




 again? man, my fingertips are starting to hurt...


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## Desdichado (Dec 3, 2003)

alsih2o said:
			
		

> again? man, my fingertips are starting to hurt...



Oh, you're sending _that_ type of DNA sample?  Sorry, ENWorld folks, my bad.


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## Henry (Dec 3, 2003)

_Note to all staff: please BURN all DNA sample packages addressed from Joshua Dyal.Do NOT open. Repeat: Do NOT Open._


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## diaglo (Dec 3, 2003)

i've run the samples against the fingerprint database for the last time.

and it is still a match.


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## the Jester (Dec 3, 2003)

Wow, I didn't even notice it was there til I saw this thread.

Weird after all this time.


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## Hand of Evil (Dec 3, 2003)

Saw it but waiting to see.  Yes, I have posted OT but mine have related in some strange and OT way, I think.


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## Umbran (Dec 3, 2003)

I too had failed to notice it until I saw this thread.

And, as others have noted, simply ignoring it isn't really an option, for two reasons.  For one, even if a particular person doesn't go there, the presence of such a forum will change posting patterns in general (and in the General Forum, even). 

For another, it won't be a valid experiment unless it's *enforced* for the two weeks.  Meaning that stuff we post may get moved about, so that we cant really ignore it...

Might I suggest that an announcement might make the experiment run more smoothly, with less mod intervention, if the folks herabout know that for the next two weeks, OT stuff will have a separate forum?

[edit: Not that I think this new forum is a great idea, but if we're to have an experiment, it needs to be done right]


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## MerakSpielman (Dec 3, 2003)

I'm not sure I like it, just because it's yet _another_ place to look for interesting threads. We'll see how it goes...


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## the Jester (Dec 3, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I like it, just because it's yet _another_ place to look for interesting threads. We'll see how it goes...




On the other hand, the front pages don't hold as many threads as they used to anyhow.


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## Buttercup (Dec 3, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> One of our concerns is how a forum like this might change the inherent nature of EN World.



Exactly.  I love this place.  I'm worried it will get broken.  Of course, my husband tells me I'm a prophet of doom.  Now if you'll excuse me, I'll go back to playing my funeral dirge on the organ.


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## EricNoah (Dec 3, 2003)

I dunno, the arguments that I could see against an OT forum include...

1) it would squash interesting off-topic conversation, because the average person isn't going to leave the comforts of General to seek a separate forum for OT threads.

2) it would unduly encourage OT posting by suggesting that, because we have a place for it we are especially welcoming of it.

3) it might encourage more posts that bother grandma, maybe due to political or religious content.  

4)  Having OT mixed with General helps "us all" keep our finger on the pulse of "our" community in some way.  

I gotta tell you, though, this experiment is making some of the mods giddy with excitement.  I'm not sure why!  We're just really, really curious if, after all this time of saying "no, no, no" it will have a beneficial effect, a detrimental effect, or no effect at all.


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## Darrin Drader (Dec 3, 2003)

I see some immediate benefits of an off-topic and non-meta forum. Presumably people willbe able to go there to post any topic that isn't on the banned list. This should include news, personal information, and (my favorite) funny/vanity threads. Also, because of its position and clear statement of purpose, it should get more traffic than Meta. All in all, if OT threads can't go into General, then I think this is the perfect solution for these boards. I promise to be on my best behavior and as long as we don't lose sight of the core values of these boards, this should be an excellent addition. Woot!


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## HellHound (Dec 4, 2003)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> _Very_ closely.  In fact, we'll need a DNA sample from everyone.  Please send to
> 
> EN World
> Behind the Hot Water Pipes
> ...




Damn near spat out my soup.

 

It's all about Monty Python, underneath it all.

Well, that and underwear.


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## Hand of Evil (Dec 4, 2003)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I dunno, the arguments that I could see against an OT forum include...
> 
> I gotta tell you, though, this experiment is making some of the mods giddy with excitement.  I'm not sure why!  We're just really, really curious if, after all this time of saying "no, no, no" it will have a beneficial effect, a detrimental effect, or no effect at all.




It will be hot and heavy for a little while , then side into the visit every how and then forums, people will mostly forget about it, posting OT in the general forum only to see them moved to the OT and then come to Meta and say "why was my topic moved?"


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## Mark (Dec 4, 2003)

HellHound said:
			
		

> Damn near spat out my soup.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




...a steelworker...

...a punk club in central Canada...

...and the shoppe where he purchased the equipment.

_Press button playing canned applause and..............release._

 _Grin insidiously._ 

(I always wondered about the inspiration for that "grin" icon!)


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## HellHound (Dec 4, 2003)

Phew.

At least it's not me.

I'm not a steelworker anymore. 

And much to my chagrin, I have never been involved in the AWESOME punk scene in central Canada (Winterpeg has a great anarchist scene)


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## Tom Cashel (Dec 4, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> One of our concerns is how a forum like this might change the inherent nature of EN World.




My goodness.  It's not Relativity or Quantum Mechanics.  It's simply a place to put all those OT threads that show up anyway.

The esteemed Mr. Noah pointed out that people might not leave the comfort zone of General to visit the OT forum.  I reply that the reason OT threads are so common is that people resist leaving the comfort zone of _EN World_ to talk about things other than RPGs.

There!  I've said it!     EN World is a nice place to be, people understand and (mostly) abide by the rules.  We're friendly here.

I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to talk to your gaming buddies about something other than Alignment or the radius of an empowered Fireball.


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## EricNoah (Dec 4, 2003)

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> EN World is a nice place to be, people understand and (mostly) abide by the rules.  We're friendly here.




Ah, I think I have my new sig quote!


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## Umbran (Dec 4, 2003)

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> The esteemed Mr. Noah pointed out that people might not leave the comfort zone of General to visit the OT forum.  I reply that the reason OT threads are so common is that people resist leaving the comfort zone of _EN World_ to talk about things other than RPGs.




Quite true, but while folks here are comfortable and friendly, they are also... well, lazy.  The question is whether they'll take up the activity of reading and posting to the OT forum.

The question is not unprecedented.  In the past, there have been gaming topics that stagnated when placed into a foum alone.  Effectively, those topics got largely removed from conversation entirely.  

But, perhaps theat won't happen here.  We shall see what the experiment shows.


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## Dinkeldog (Dec 4, 2003)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> It will be hot and heavy for a little while , then side into the visit every how and then forums, people will mostly forget about it, posting OT in the general forum only to see them moved to the OT and then come to Meta and say "why was my topic moved?"




Or worse:  "I know this will get moved, but more people will see it here."


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## Darrin Drader (Dec 4, 2003)

Well, if you're worried that no one will go there, a concern that I would be surprised if proven right, just put up a sticky in the popular forums (that no one ever reads) announcing its existence and inviting people to post there.


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## KingOfChaos (Dec 4, 2003)

I, for one, rejoice in the Off Topic forum.  Especially if it keeps the annoying Hivemind threads out of General RPG Discussion.


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## LightPhoenix (Dec 4, 2003)

I'm glad to see it's being tried, at the very least.

My only worry is irrational, I think.  Basically, I worry that it will be the start of a quasi-elitist sect of ENWorld.


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## Darrin Drader (Dec 4, 2003)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> My only worry is irrational, I think.  Basically, I worry that it will be the start of a quasi-elitist sect of ENWorld.




Too late.   

Actually I think those of us the most interested in it are hardly concerned with our social standing.


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## Skade (Dec 4, 2003)

My experience with forums is pretty minimal, so I have to ask, how would an off-topic board create an elitist sect among the members?


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## MerakSpielman (Dec 4, 2003)

It's a fine line between what is on-topic and what is off-topic. The ubiquitious Roman d20? Those entertaining little movies mixing 8-bit characters with the Dead Alewives clip? Trogdor the Burninator? These are all things that I welcomed in the General Forum as being funny or interesting to gamers at large. Threads with the [OT] tag often get posts like "This is SO not off-topic! This is totally on-topic man!"

I can see the OT forum for things like "I am drunk" "Hivemind" and "I'm now a Daddy!", but there are plenty of borderline issues. I think the mods might be biting off more than they can chew, what with the number of judgement calls they're going to be having to make now.

Incedentally, if something is posted in General and you think it's off-topic, you're going to move it, right? What if something in OT is posted and you think it belongs in General? Are you going to move those?


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## Skade (Dec 4, 2003)

I'm not arguing that Hivemind threads do not belong in the OT boards.  I fully agree, actually.  However, the threads are almost always peripherally related to games.  Sure there is a lot of random silliness, but much of that silliness is things like what book or miniatures someone recently bought, or how their last game session went, or almost roleplaying like banter between the various personalities considering conquering the world at some point.  

The Hive is alot like the conversations that almost invariably crop up during a game session without old friends.  We make jokes about movie quotes, make off hand remarks about what movie we just saw, and talk about life in the context of gaming.  It is perfect for the OT forum, but it is not quite off topic.  Mind you, it is common for us to discuss whether we are drunk, and our kids, so yeah - I have no point.


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## EricNoah (Dec 4, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> I can see the OT forum for things like "I am drunk" "Hivemind" and "I'm now a Daddy!", but there are plenty of borderline issues. I think the mods might be biting off more than they can chew, what with the number of judgement calls they're going to be having to make now.




We'll try to take a pretty broad interpretation of on-topic and leave those in General.  It's usually not hard to make the call.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Dec 4, 2003)

It's been discussed before that the reason most people don't read or post to Meta is that it is way down at the bottom of the page. The Off Topic forum is almost as far down (only 5 above Meta). It's likely to be ignored almost as much. I predict that the mods are going to end up moving alot more threads, and no matter how many times you tell people "It belongs in Off Topic" threads will start in General, only to die in Off Topic, except for those of us who will spend a good amount of time there. Breaking the General forum in half (which is essentially what this is doing) will just result in less people regularly posting in both areas. Some will migrate to Off Topic and spend most of their time there, others will stick with General, depending on what they prefer. The amount of discussion in each will not be the same as we had in General alone. 

 So, my vote is not to have the Off Topic forum. I like it all in one place, where discussions can attract people who wouldn't see them otherwise.


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## LightPhoenix (Dec 4, 2003)

Skade said:
			
		

> My experience with forums is pretty minimal, so I have to ask, how would an off-topic board create an elitist sect among the members?



I _did_ say it was irrational! 

But to rationalize, I've been involved in a few communities where people have decided to start secondary boards and channels and such, and it eventually grew into that.  I sincerely doubt it would happen on ENWorld, because people here are cool.  But who knows with people?


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## Michael Morris (Dec 4, 2003)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> I _did_ say it was irrational!
> 
> But to rationalize, I've been involved in a few communities where people have decided to start secondary boards and channels and such, and it eventually grew into that.  I sincerely doubt it would happen on ENWorld, because people here are cool.




Too late

Go Nuts!!


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## Silver Moon (Dec 5, 2003)

So this question came up earlier on the Hivemind thread...

Is something is in the "Off Topic" forum, and is tagged as "Off Topic", doesn't that create a double negative which then makes it on topic?


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## Tallok (Dec 5, 2003)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> I'm glad to see it's being tried, at the very least.
> 
> My only worry is irrational, I think.  Basically, I worry that it will be the start of a quasi-elitist sect of ENWorld.



 And if this didn't happen in all of the OT posts in Meta, why would it happen here?


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## LightPhoenix (Dec 5, 2003)

Tallok said:
			
		

> And if this didn't happen in all of the OT posts in Meta, why would it happen here?



I don't know, I'm being dumb.

*beats Michael for pointing out Nutkinland*

Though I will say one thing - Nutkinland people don't seem to mind new people in the community.  Though I've only posted there three times in god knows how long, so I really couldn't say for sure.


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## Piratecat (Dec 5, 2003)

KingOfChaos said:
			
		

> I, for one, rejoice in the Off Topic forum.  Especially if it keeps the annoying Hivemind threads out of General RPG Discussion.




We're looking at finding a way to sticky these at the top of Page Two.


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## Henry (Dec 5, 2003)

KingOfChaos said:
			
		

> I, for one, rejoice in the Off Topic forum.  Especially if it keeps the annoying Hivemind threads out of General RPG Discussion.




From my viewpoint as a moderator, the hiveminders are model citizens; they keep their stuff to one thread at a time, and when they are done with a thread, they request a lock, create a new one, and BAM, they're off.  

Not saying anyone else isn't a "model citizen" - but the Hivemind regulars are pretty little trouble to us mod's.


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## BryonD (Dec 5, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> We're looking at finding a way to sticky these at the top of Page Two.




Easy!

Force everyone to have 25 (or any other number) posts per page.
Put that many plus one sticky posts, with Hivemind as the last one.


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## Skade (Dec 5, 2003)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> I don't know, I'm being dumb.
> 
> *beats Michael for pointing out Nutkinland*
> 
> Though I will say one thing - Nutkinland people don't seem to mind new people in the community.  Though I've only posted there three times in god knows how long, so I really couldn't say for sure.



 I guess you have not seen the Go Back to Enworld smiley yet?


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## Michael Morris (Dec 5, 2003)

NKL is a wonderful place - once you're through the requisite hazing.


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## Skade (Dec 5, 2003)

I'm sure it is.  Though it does seem to require a certain amount of intestinal fortitude and a backbone to survive BFD.  Debate Club is merely not for the weak.  

I did recenly slide over there, but no one seems to have noticed yet.


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## William Ronald (Dec 6, 2003)

I am willing to give the OT a chance.  Perhaps it can be a place to put some of the real world stuff, in which case maybe changing its name to the Real World will help.  Maybe better defining its purpose might help.


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## Darrin Drader (Dec 6, 2003)

Michael_Morris said:
			
		

> NKL is a wonderful place - once you're through the requisite hazing.




I was there for about two weeks and no requisite hazing. Finally I intentionally provoked it by being a troll and then they let me have it (quite deservedly!).


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## Umbran (Dec 6, 2003)

I dunno about everyone else, but what I'm seeing is this - that which is interesting sprinkled in with the general gaming conversation isn't all that attractive when bunched up together.


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## jdavis (Dec 6, 2003)

Baraendur said:
			
		

> I was there for about two weeks and no requisite hazing. Finally I intentionally provoked it by being a troll and then they let me have it (quite deservedly!).



Yea I pretty much just lurk around NKL. I get a real kick out of the dynamic there but it is a whole different world than EN World, sort of like if somebody built a biker bar in the back room of a Chuck-E-Cheese. Little kids walk around the wrong corner and get mugged for tokens and skeeball tickets.

I don't think the OT forum here will have that type of effect as the same rules apply in that forum as the rest of the forums here. So far I haven't noticed any major ripples in the EN World space/time fabric or anything, just another forum to visit has popped up (although it's not really all that interesting there either.)


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## Sir Osis of Liver (Dec 7, 2003)

Not sure how i feal about an OT forum. Seems kinda wrong, but...in a ok way. Maybe calling it "Community chest" or something and tagging it as more of a place for the communtiy to go discuss non game stuff would sit better, IMO anyway. Eh, i don't know...


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## Mark (Dec 7, 2003)

Sir Osis of Liver said:
			
		

> Maybe calling it "Community chest"




...I like that...


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## Robbert Raets (Dec 8, 2003)

Hmmm, off-topic forum....

Hey! Does this mean off-topic polls are no longer forbidden?!


Mwuhahahaahaaaaaa!!


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## Umbran (Dec 8, 2003)

Sir Osis of Liver said:
			
		

> Maybe calling it "Community chest" or something and tagging it as more of a place for the communtiy to go discuss non game stuff would sit better...




Probably.  Though I wonder at the wisdom of naming it as a reference to a pre-existing group of board members.   Now everyone who wants to talk about off topic stuff is _de facto_ participating in the Hivemind?  *shrug*.


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## Tom Cashel (Dec 8, 2003)

I really liked that Forum.  Now that it's "The Hive," I...I just don't.

Maybe it's because I don't like the Hivemind threads (10 pages of one-line posts?  Use the chatroom, folks!).  Now that name is applied to everything in there, despite a huge list of good suggestions.

Bleh.


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## MerakSpielman (Dec 8, 2003)

I just knew they'd spread... Soon we'll all be in the Hive... I'll bet the OT forum was just a Hive ploy from the beginning. Some day we'll log in and there won't be the forums, there'll just be the OverHive.


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## Skade (Dec 8, 2003)

Merak, consider yourself .sig-ed.  

I'm biased, as I'm one of the more active Hivemind people on the boards right now, and I even I did not suggest that the Hive be the name of that forum.  I have expressed my concerns about the feelings of my fellow EnWorlders, but honestly I think it's a fine name.  Its amusing, and does relate to a good number of people on these boards, even if they are busy enough to not visit that thread much these days.  I really hope it is not seen as exclusionary, I know that was not the intention.  

You know, I would bet that a good number of the posts on these boards are one liners.  A smaller but significant number are only peripherally related to the thread, and quite a few are actually chatter between posters who know each other well enough to make jabs and jokes throughout the threads that thier friends are likely to see it.  

The Hivemind simply condenses this.  All that cross posting chatter from all of us just gets lumped into one thread.  Yeah, there are some of us who do little more than chat, I admit.  There are also as many of us who talk about gaming tidbits not worthy of a whole thread, and a good number of Hivers that activly contribute as much as we can.  

I don't think by posting to the OT forum anyone has to join the Hivemind, nor would posting there immediatly make you percieved as one, with all the baggage that comes with that.


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## Henry (Dec 8, 2003)

I like the concept of "The Hive" because, no matter what people think, it's the same thing that goes on in Hivemind threads all the time, just spread out over other threads. 99% of the regular posters on these boards have been "Hiveminding" to lesser degree as long as they've been here. Everything from _"this potato chip looks like Elvis!"_ to _"How many times to you see businesses with D&D in the title?"_ to _"How do I properly Brine this Turkey?!?!"_ to _"What computer hardware do I choose?"_ - it's ALL hivemind.

That said, the name still ain't right, to me. I myself will keep thinking, and posting, until either 

(A) the experiement fails, or 

(B) someone's cutesy Forum Name spreads like, _"Who let the dogs out?"_


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## Tom Cashel (Dec 8, 2003)

If "Good morning, Hive, I'm awake now" is an acceptable post, then "I'm drunk" and "I just ate a ham sandwich" threads should be allowed as well.



> 99% of the regular posters on these boards have been "Hiveminding" to lesser degree as long as they've been here. Everything from "this potato chip looks like Elvis!" to "How many times to you see businesses with D&D in the title?" to "How do I properly Brine this Turkey?!?!" to "What computer hardware do I choose?" - it's ALL hivemind.




Agreed, in a sense.  But all of that has a _topic_ attached.  [Hivemind] threads have no topic; they are Hivemind, they are strictly for chatting, and nothing more has ever been asked of them.

That other 99% have a few guidelines attached, wouldn't you say?


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## Umbran (Dec 8, 2003)

Henry said:
			
		

> 99% of the regular posters on these boards have been "Hiveminding" to lesser degree as long as they've been here.




Yes and no.  

For one thing, Mr. Cashel is correct, in that your usual non-Hivemind thread really doesn't bear much resemblence to a Hivemind thread.  There's a qualitative difference there.  If there weren't, the Hivemind would never have developed, hm?

For another - those 99% have been discussing OT for years.  Since long before the Hivemind sprang up.  That makes HIvemind a subset of OT, not the other way around.

My concern is that you'll tend to drive other folks away from the OT forum with the implicit statement that they are really taking part in Hivemind stuff.  Rather than worrying about it becoming exclusionary, I'm worried aobut it being too inclusionary - tacking the label where it isn't entirely accurate, onto people who don't want it.  The Hivemind is a bunch of people who self-identify as such, and perhaps it is better for them and for everyone else if it remain that way.


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## Piratecat (Dec 8, 2003)

I'm not sure what you guys are talking about. I don't see any forum labeled "The Hive."


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## Umbran (Dec 8, 2003)

Okay, I think "Sassy Henry's Soapbox" is a way cool name for the forum.  Good show, sirs!


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## Michael Morris (Dec 8, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what you guys are talking about. I don't see any forum labeled "The Hive."




Refresh your cache kitty.

Edit: Tricksee Pirate... Argh

I'm not going to redraw that logo everytime you guys switch the name.


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## Piratecat (Dec 8, 2003)

No, of course not.  

We might play around with it for a bit; leave the current cool logo until we settle down or finally decide on something.


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## Angcuru (Dec 8, 2003)

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> I really liked that Forum.  Now that it's "The Hive," I...I just don't.
> 
> Maybe it's because I don't like the Hivemind threads (10 pages of one-line posts?  Use the chatroom, folks!).  Now that name is applied to everything in there, despite a huge list of good suggestions.
> 
> ...



You seem to miss the point of the Hivemind, Tom.  It's a place to go and be silly, not a place to chat.  Don't you think we'd use the chatroom if that's the way we wanted to communicate?

You also seem to not know the difference between a post and a thread.  I thought you would, for all your time here.  
Post - Comment in a conversation
Thread - Conversation


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## (contact) (Dec 9, 2003)

jdavis said:
			
		

> sort of like if somebody built a biker bar in the back room of a Chuck-E-Cheese. Little kids walk around the wrong corner and get mugged for tokens and skeeball tickets.




You should post more and lurk less.  You get it.


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## Tom Cashel (Dec 9, 2003)

Angcuru said:
			
		

> You also seem to not know the difference between a post and a thread.  I thought you would, for all your time here.
> Post - Comment in a conversation
> Thread - Conversation




I'm fully aware of the difference.  That's why I referred to a "post" that I read in a Hivemind thread, and "threads" that dealt with similarly inconsequential themes.

I'm all for silliness.  I thought you would have known that, even in your short time here.

Oh, and by the way..."Sassy Henry's Soapbox" is a stupendous name, and should be kept forever or until something better comes up.


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## barsoomcore (Dec 9, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> Soon we'll all be in the Hive.



That's just silly.

You're ALREADY in the Hive, MS. The Hive is all. The Hive is you. You are the Hive.

Sheesh...


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## Mark (Dec 9, 2003)

Henry said:
			
		

> (B) someone's cutesy Forum Name spreads like, _"Who let the dogs out?"_




#10. _"Look what the tarrasque dragged in..."_


#9. _"Posters' Pergatory"_


#8. _"Two Cents? Too Much!"_


#7. _"I can't believe it's a forum!"_


#6. _"My parents went on holiday and all they got me was this lousy forum"_


#5. _"Foaming at the mouth is optional."_


#4. _"There ain't enough bandwidth to justify what you are about to read"_


#3. _"monkeys, monkeys, monkeys"_


#2. _"Space Cube"_


_...and..._


#1. _"The Deep Gnomes' Secret Hole"_


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## Tom Cashel (Dec 9, 2003)

...Aaaaaand the Hive returns.


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## Brown Jenkin (Dec 9, 2003)

Just my own thoughts and opinions.

I am not sure about an Off Topic Forum myself. I never minded the OT posts in general as long as they remained controled. I even liked such things as news posts about Cthulhu washing up on the beach. Which brings up the question how far OT does something need to be? I would like to continue to see tangential posts like Roman D20s or giant Alaskan bird sightings in General. I think they are related and interesting. Now that brings up such things as I'm having a baby or I got married posts next. While definitely OT they were not overwhelming things. I didn't mind the Sci-Fi Fantasy Book Movie Forum since those threads were overwhelming general. That forum is now one of my top visits whenever I am here. Having a forum for baby/wedding news would be uninteresting in its own right without something extra, however dragging all tangential posts as well will strip General of the community feel it has while still leaving OT not interesting enough in its own right to visit. If this remains in effect I will likely drop General from general viewing and stick with Rules and House Rules for my D&D fix and keeping Sci-Fi for my community OT fix. 

As for a name for the OT forum. I have not minded the Hive being around too much but the name in particular always kept me out. Dispite claims to the contrary it always seemed clicish and exclusionary in concept to me. Calling it just [OT Conversation] or something more descriptive whould have made it more appealing but naming it the Hivemind (brings up concepts of mindless drones all part of a simiilar thinking collective) and people declaring themselves "Part of the Hive" left me feeling it was a clic membership thing. Naming the OT forum "The Hive" drags the same connotations to the forum and leaves me even less desireous of entering and participating.  It feels to me that a group of regulars I never wanted to join up with has taken over the community since all OT posts are now thier domain. I also don't see the need to come up with a cutesy name  at all. The best forum names in my opion are the simplest most descriptive ones which also allow new people to find the right place for things. My own preference if it is decided to keep the forum (and even durring testing) would be to name it "Off Topic and Community News" I have always liked ENWorld for its decorum and sense of community and that is in part from the high moderation to keep out inflamitory and controversial subjects. Not everyone likes the Hive and declaring the OT forum to be the Hive only leaves me feeling like a second class citizen of the board for not joining into this clic.

Again these are only my opinions. While you may feel free to defend the Hive please don't do so in the hopes that I will be converted to your way of thinking.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Dec 9, 2003)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> As for a name for the OT forum. I have not minded the Hive being around too much but the name in particular always kept me out. Dispite claims to the contrary it always seemed clicish and exclusionary in concept to me. Calling it just [OT Conversation] or something more descriptive whould have made it more appealing but naming it the Hivemind (brings up concepts of mindless drones all part of a simiilar thinking collective) and people declaring themselves "Part of the Hive" left me feeling it was a clic membership thing. Naming the OT forum "The Hive" drags the same connotations to the forum and leaves me even less desireous of entering and participating. It feels to me that a group of regulars I never wanted to join up with has taken over the community since all OT posts are now thier domain. I also don't see the need to come up with a cutesy name at all. The best forum names in my opion are the simplest most descriptive ones which also allow new people to find the right place for things. My own preference if it is decided to keep the forum (and even durring testing) would be to name it "Off Topic and Community News" I have always liked ENWorld for its decorum and sense of community and that is in part from the high moderation to keep out inflamitory and controversial subjects. Not everyone likes the Hive and declaring the OT forum to be the Hive only leaves me feeling like a second class citizen of the board for not joining into this clic.



 I have to say, this is the most well reasoned arguement I've seen yet for not changing the name of the OT forum to The Hive. Whether or not the hive members have anything to do with the OT forum is not the issue. I know they don't. The fact that the name of the group has be used to refer to an entire forum gives the impression that it is an exclusive area, even if this isn't true to those of us who know that it is just a name. Just call it what it is and be done with it: The Off Topic Forum.


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## Robbert Raets (Dec 10, 2003)

>Agrees with mr. Jerkin<


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## Barendd Nobeard (Dec 10, 2003)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> I have to say, this is the most well reasoned arguement I've seen yet for not changing the name of the OT forum to The Hive. Whether or not the hive members have anything to do with the OT forum is not the issue. I know they don't. The fact that the name of the group has be used to refer to an entire forum gives the impression that it is an exclusive area, even if this isn't true to those of us who know that it is just a name. Just call it what it is and be done with it: The Off Topic Forum.



Agreed.  Can we just call it the "Off Topic" forum?  I'd like to keep up with people's OT news and events, but I don't really go in there anymore due to the name.  It's just a clique I was never interested in joining, and now I have to go into their forum for my OT fix.  Ick.


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## Brown Jenkin (Dec 11, 2003)

I have now made the effort to spend some time checking out the "Hive" forum. The impression I get is that it might be aptly named. It is if 90% of the threads are the exploded remains of a [Hivemind] thread. For me at least this is a failed experiment. I could deal with the Hive when its pointless ramblings were contained in 1 thread. Now that the OT forum is 90% Hive subthreads I have no desire to spend any time in there at all. Does the reorganization and merging of the Plots thread into general forshadow a keeping of the "Hive" Forum for all OT. If so I will be disapointed since the community spirit of the forums will relegated to the keeping of the Hive and I will no longer get tidbits of interesting news or updates on fellow board members. Whether the name is changed or not I fear that I will continue to avoid the forum if it remains a place where the Hive continues to dominate a vast majority of the threads.


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## Umbran (Dec 11, 2003)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> I have now made the effort to spend some time checking out the "Hive" forum. The impression I get is that it might be aptly named. It is if 90% of the threads are the exploded remains of a [Hivemind] thread. For me at least this is a failed experiment.




To be more specific, I just checked, and 9 of the first 32 threads were "Ask X".  It seems when you give people the unfettered right to go off-topic, they... go overboard.  Repetetively.  

So, you wanted to know if there should be off-topic polls in that forum?  I think you can guess teh answer to that would be "no" as well.


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## Piratecat (Dec 11, 2003)

Fixed.


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## Arc (Dec 11, 2003)

I've been taking a _long_ break from ENWorld (since the last server switch), and I'm not quite sure about this new OT thing. I just went over there, and it seems like half the pages are locked by PKitty, with


> Guess what? We can close OT threads here, too.



as their reason. Doesn't seem like there's a clear line as to how far 'too far' really is.
Edit: Just saw the new sticky post


> Know when to stop, people. The standard EN World rule for not posting dumb-ass, content-less threads is not suspended in this forum. Is that unclear to anyone?



Maybe it's just me, but exactly what constitutes "dumb-ass" and "content-less" is still pretty unclear. Some of the stuff locked was kinda funny, most of it was not. I dunno... I'm just kinda lost


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## Macbeth (Dec 11, 2003)

I think this round of closers may mark the begining of the end of the OT forum.


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## Piratecat (Dec 11, 2003)

That line is drawn by common sense. One "Ask" thread was no big deal. Nine was all chaff and no wheat. I could have merged them - that might have been funny - but I was trying to make a point.

I hope this works, and that means that we all need to use good judgment. A good rule of thumb? Don't post stuff that you wouldn't previously post in the General Forum two weeks ago.


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## Arc (Dec 11, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I hope this works, and that means that we all need to use good judgment. A good rule of thumb? Don't post stuff that you wouldn't previously post in the General Forum two weeks ago.



Ah, there we go. That bit of clarification is useful, and easy to understand.


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## Macbeth (Dec 11, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> A good rule of thumb? Don't post stuff that you wouldn't previously post in the General Forum two weeks ago.



That should be stickied to the OT forum.


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## Piratecat (Dec 11, 2003)

Already done.


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## Darrin Drader (Dec 11, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Don't post stuff that you wouldn't previously post in the General Forum two weeks ago.




I'm not sure that really limits me very much. Could you give us some more concrete guidelines on what you specifically don't want to see?

For instance, if a new metathread were to start, would that be tolerated or shut down? What about another clone-cat fight?

Or to put it another way, is the OT forum a lounge, or must it be a place for serious discussion about serious (non-political or religious) topics?


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## Skade (Dec 11, 2003)

What do you mean by lounge?  

I'd say its a forum for discussing personal news, interesting news stories, random and unique humor threads, idle chatter (this includes, but is not limited to Hivemind threads) and other threads that don't quite fit anywhere else.


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## Darrin Drader (Dec 11, 2003)

Skade said:
			
		

> What do you mean by lounge?
> 
> I'd say its a forum for discussing personal news, interesting news stories,




OK, this part is fairly obvious and seems pretty well defined.



> random and unique humor threads, idle chatter (this includes, but is not limited to Hivemind threads) and other threads that don't quite fit anywhere else.




This is the part I'm not so sure about, especially since we all have a different sense of humor (some of us very much so).


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## Skade (Dec 11, 2003)

I rarely find any of the humor threads all that funny. I was simply listing all the types of threads I see cropping up. With humor I'd say the definition of that would be anything _intended_ to be funny, that manages not to, or to potentially, offend someone (too badly).

Edit:  Oh, and I was really asking your definition of lounge.  Just curious what that means in this context to you, and anyone else.  I've seen it used on one forum before, but it was a very different board and the results were not quite what I imagine happening here.


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## Jonny Nexus (Dec 11, 2003)

DM Magic said:
			
		

> Can someone explain to me how an Off-topic forum would ruin EN World? I, for one, enjoy being able to go to the General Discussion forum and _only_ see D&D stuff.




I guess the theory goes like this:

1) Given that the scope of the forum is potentially everything except roleplaying stuff, there is theoretically way more to talk about (i.e everything in the world other than RPGs).

2) This can then lead to a situation where the off-topic forum is seeing far more activity than the on-topic forums, meaning that it's nature in many ways becomes the defacto nature of the whole site.

3) Since it can often be easier to have rows on off-topic subjects than on roleplaying (since we're all roleplayers but may violently disagree on other subjects), the off-topic forum can get much more "heated" than the on-topic forum.

Combine points 2 and 3 and you could theoretically get a situation where an off-topic forum changes the nature of the whole site.

On the other hand, both strong disagreements and active discussion usually revolve around politics or religion (or closely related subjects). Since they are banned round here, I suspect that the off-topic forum will remain a quiet backwater, and not, therefore, affect the site as a whole.


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## Brown Jenkin (Dec 11, 2003)

I'm still wondering where the line between General and OT is? Right now there is a thread in General about SHARK being published. There is another anouncing that they have a wireless internet connection to ENWorld. These seem to have the blessing of the moderators since they respond and don't move the threads. Then there is the Roman d20 issue, where does that belong? Next are the stories of the PHB in the GE Comercial, is this RPG or OT? Then there are news stories of giant birds in Alaska. Threads pop up about that saying there are Rocs in Alaska, is this OT? What about the threads about travel plans to GenCon?  I'm just wondering how OT you need to be to have to be in the OT Forum?


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## Umbran (Dec 11, 2003)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> I'm still wondering where the line between General and OT is?




I'd imagine that after a little practise, the division wil become more clear.  Things that have to do with RPGs (like the Roman d20) will end up in general.  Things that have *nothing* to do with RPGs will end up in OT.

There's always going to be edge areas where things are vague.  Occasionally, a rules question comes into general, and so on.  We can deal.  I mean, what's the worst?  A thread gets moved occasionally?


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