# Guide to the Qinggong Monk (Ultimate Magic)



## StreamOfTheSky

With UM, Pathfinder released a new archetype for the monk, the Qinggong Monk, along with some really awful vows that I will not be covering in this guide.  The most interesting thing about this archetype is that it is pretty much all encompassing: each class feature swap is voluntary on the player's part, you could go to Monk 20 without changing a single Monk class feature and still be a Qinggong Monk.  It's basically just extra options, so mechanically, in any game that uses UM, every Monk is effectively a Qinggong Monk (hereafter abrreviated as QM).  As you might expect from something giving a bunch of free extra options, even for a class that badly needs them like the Monk, most are terrible.  The job of this guide is to review the options and point out the few diamonds in the rough.

First, an overview of the stuff you can trade.  It is important to note that the new abilities not only cost you ki points (usually), but also the permanent loss of a class feature.

Class Features you can trade:
[sblock]Slow Fall (4th): I would not trade this for any of the low level options.  In a PF only game, it's required for the awesome Spider Step and Cloud Step feats, and if your DM is cool and doesn't use the errata'd Cloud Step this will also be your key to actually getting a decent capstone class feature at level 20.  If 3E material is allowed, you can swap it for better and more interesting things than QM offers, like Wall Walker in Dungeonscape.

High Jump (5th): Jumping super high is great, but the spellcasters are getting _Fly_ around now.  This is certainly worth swapping out.

Wholeness of Body (7th): The healing is godawful, and the action and ki point cost is a sin against all that is good and right with the world.  Drop this for *anything*.  Seriously, how did this happen when a Paladins lay on hands got so ridiculously buffed?

Diamond Body (11th): Immunity to Poison certainly is handy, especially if your DM allows your lawful monk to use poisoned weapons.  But otherwise, you already have good saves, I would consider trading this for the QM options.  One QM option in particular...

Abundant Step (12th): This is golden.  Can't act after using it, but move action teleportation is sweet.  I'd be very hesitant to give this up.

Diamond Soul (13th): This one seems to have very mixed reactions, since it's such a double-edged sword.  I personally think the benefits outweigh the pain it is to get in combat healing/buffs and that you're really shooting yourself in the foot getting rid of such a powerful high level class feature.  But if you care more about not having any chance of being denied a spell when you absolutely need it...

Quivering Palm (15th): This has a coolness score of 10, but a practicality score of...really low.  Casters have had save or dies for a while already, it's not like it's an urgent need to fill for the party.  If you can find something nice to swap for it, I think it's worth considering.

Timeless Body (17th): If you can start at or near level 17+ and actually benefit from this without spending months sucking on horrific physical stats, keep it.  Otherwise, you probably aren't built properly to get advantage from this anyway.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon (17th): Tongues is a cheap magic item by now.  Swap unless nothing on the QM list appeals to you.

Empty Body (19th): You get this pretty late in the game, but it's still good.  I would keep this.

Perfect Self (20th): Look at the 20th level class features other classes get.  Now look back at your DR 10 and cry.  And then swap it out.  Chuckle at how normal monks gaining this "benefit" can't even use Enlarge Person anymore.

Note: The text states that "A qinggong monk can learn additional ki powers, which often replaces a non-ki monk ability such as purity of body."  Even though Purity of Body is not a listed swap option.  Check with your DM if it can be one, because it's a pretty weak class feature.[/sblock]

Some notes on QM class features:
1. The feat options are all, with a few exceptions, TERRIBLE.  I'm not even going to waste my time reviewing any that require ki points to use.  Spending 1 (or more!) points and a permanent class feature just to get a feat for 1 round, most of them ones you could obtain on your own anyway?  No thank you.  My default advice for any of them is to avoid them like the plague.

2. Spells are fascinating for a few reasons.  They are spell-like abilities, so components don't matter, which makes certain options more appealing than you'd think at first.  Secondly, any spell that costs 0 ki is functionally a "constant" bonus, as long as you can take the action required to re-activate it.  Thirdly, the text says to use Wisdom to modify CL checks to beat SR and save DC, but says nothing for other spell parameters.  Depending on how your DM rules on this, some spell options can go from decent to abominable.

3. Never use QM to take a class feature you dropped, especially if it now costs ki points (or more ki points than before) to use.  I will not bother reviewing the class features QM offers, I already did above.

4. For some reason, Paizo didn't match the levels of the swappable monk class features to the min. levels of the QM options, so just because something is listed as an "Xth level Ki power" doesn't necessarily mean you can get it right then.  I will denote the soonest you can obtain each tier of powers.  I will be rating the powers on a star scale one (*) for irredeemably bad, up to four (****) for great options, boardering on "no-brainer," with Ki point cost in parentheses after each name.  Any feat ki power not listed is somewhere between zero and negative four stars 

4th level Ki Powers
Earliest Monk level you can obtain: 4th (Slow Fall)
[sblock]Augury (1)**: I'd be inclined to leave this to the cleric, who can just prepare it as needed.  Divination spells like this are also highly DM-dependent on how useful they are to begin with.  That said, not having to pay for the material component or focus is a definite selling point.

Barkskin (1; self-only)***: Ultimately, this just saves you some money over buying an amulet of natural armor, while at low levels it's a decent AC boost for an ok duration.  Compared to low level monk class features, this is probably worth a swap.

Deny Death (0)*: It's a feat, but costs no ki to use, aside from the healing option.  I still don't think it's worth it compared to the other things on this list, but it at least has some situational use.

Feather Step (1; self-only)**: Ignoring difficult terrain is nice mostly to 5 ft step and full attack in it, but a single weak feat does that for you already.  It's still a handy spell, but being self-only makes it more limited than it's worth, IMO.  This is a cheap wand, scroll, or potion, also.

Hydraulic Push (1)**: Not any better than you at bull rushing, the only real benefit is getting to do it from range.

Ki Arrow (1)*: It's a level 1 spell with no benefit for high CL or casting stat.  In other words, a cheap magic item.

Ki Stand (0)*: Standing as a swift (but still provoking) may be worth trading High Jump for, but there are better choices on this list.  I'm rating this extra low because if you DO use 3E material, the 600 gp Boots of Agile Leaping give you the benefit of this feat AND prevent AoOs, which...kinda makes this look pathetic.  Just saying.

Message (1)*: Why does this cost Ki?!  Any arcanist can just cast it all day for free without losing a class feature, let them handle it.

Scorching Ray (2)**: The value of this spell goes down with level, as the number of fire immune or resist (each 4d6 eats resistance separately) grows.  At levels 4-7 it's a nice ranged addition to a monk's arsenal, but unless your DM lets you retrain it later, I wouldn't get it.

True Strike (1; self-only)***: I find it funny this was labeled self-only.  This is great for when you absolutely, positively need to hit something.  On its own, it's not worth the set up time, especially for a class centered around full attacking.  However, with Quicken SLA and some other investments, this has potential.[/sblock]

6th level Ki Powers
Earliest Monk level you can obtain: 7th (Wholeness of Body)
[sblock]Cloak of Winds (2; self-only)*: Awesome if swarms of pixies attacking terrifies you, I guess.

Gaseous Form (1; self-only)***: Massive utility use for this one.  Strongly recommend.

Hydraulic Torrent (2)**: Bull rush multiple creatures in a line.  Decent.

Remove Disease (2)*: Leave this to the cleric.[/sblock]

8th level Ki Powers
Earliest Monk level you can obtain: 11th!!! (WTF, Paizo?) (Diamond Body)
[sblock]Dragon's Breath (2)*: This spell is terrible and not worth a class featur and 2 ki per use.

Neutralize Poison (3)*: Stop trying to be the cleric, you're really not that good at it.

Poison (2)*: Paizo nerfed the hell out of this spell.  Not worth it anymore.

Restoration (2; self-only)****: Oh yes!  Finally a hands-down great option!  Notice the expensive components?  Screw 'em!  Being able to flip off a laundry list of status ailments is absolutely worth a class feature.  Heck, trade your poison immunity for it, since that's the soonest you can get this.  As long as it's not Con poison that kills you before you can finish the 1 min. casting time, you can just heal away all the ability damage anyway.  The only reason to get Neutralize poison and pay an extra ki point is to heal the party.  Like I said, leave it to the cleric!

Share Memory (0)*: It's free to use, but I don't think it's worth a class feature this late in the game.

Silk to Steel (1)*: I don't recommend this spell, there are better ways to get a shield bonus to AC by now, and the spell says nothing about gaining proficiency with a whip in general, or your scarf-whip specifically.[/sblock]

10th level Ki Powers
Earliest Monk level you can obtain: 11th (Diamond Body)
[sblock]Discordant Blast (2)*: Weak damage and uses a dump stat to modify the bull rush.

Greater Trip: This isn't actually an option, even though Disarm, Bull Rush, Sunder, and even Feint are.  I'm just listing this here to remind everyone that Paizo hates monks.

Ki Leech (0)****: Get this!  Free to keep active all day long, this spell gives you a ki point back every time you kill/destroy a foe and every time you crit.  Start doing nonlethal with your attacks, so enemies drop unconscious before dying.  Then you can get the kill shots with a coup de grace on all of them post-battle, to refill 2 ki per body.  If you really feel like making the monk class playable, consider the "bag of rats" option of just keeping some dude deep in the nonlethals and continuously beating him with nonlethal CDGs for a ki recharge whenever you need it.  Basically means you have unlimited ki, which I don't find unbalanced by this level.  Obviously not a tactic for a good aligned monk.

Shadow Step (1)***: This is probably the hardest decision you'll have to make with QM.  You already get Abundant Step at about the same level and there's no reason to keep both.  AS is a move action and has no limits on use, but costs 2 points and ends your turn.  SS only costs 1 point and doesn't end your turn, but is a standard action and limited in where it can be used.  Choose wisely.

Spit Venom (2)**: If only the range were longer.  No save blindness for one round is nice, but the spellcasters can mess people up with status effects much better than this by high levels.  I'd say don't bother.[/sblock]

12th level Ki Powers
Earliest Monk level you can obtain: 12th (Abundant Step)
[sblock]Battlemind Link (4)***: This is SOOOO costly to use!  But, if you're using Ki Leech for infinite ki, this becomes plausible to use frequently.  Sadly, the save DC option is pretty much useless to you and it's the strongest choice.  But getting two rolls, pick the better, for initiative and attack rolls along with an ally is pretty potent still.

Shadow Walk (3)**: It costs a lot, and someone else should really be able to cover long distance travel.  If not, you have the option, at least.[/sblock]

14th level Ki Powers
Earliest Monk level you can obtain: 15th (Quivering Palm)
[sblock]Blood Crow Strike (2)-*** or **: This spell is written poorly.  It looks to me like you cast as a 1 round action (P.S. how awful is that?!) and as part of that, make a full unarmed attack, including flurry, at range.  The fact that it divides the damage into fire and negative energy, and thus becomes an evil spell, just is plain annoying, as is the requirement to pummel the same enemy.  Still, in PF-only games, this is the only way to ranged punch somone with a full attack I know of.  It gets a negative 3 star rating if 3E is allowed.  Cause...well, just *compare* this with the level 1 spell Blood Wind and see what I mean.

Cold Ice Strike (3)*: Swift action for decent area damage.  A worthy addition to round out your arsenal.
Update: Paizo nerfed the hell out of this spell, it used to be a swift action cone of cold, now it's much weaker and simply not worth the ki points.

Ki Shout (3)*: So, for 3 ki and a class feature...you get to damage an enemy and stun them, failed save permitting?  Man, that's something a monk couldn't do already!

Sonic Thrust (2)**: This spell is way too limited for utility use.  All targets within 10 ft of each other, small weight limit, will saves to resist, low damage if it becomes a factor...  The only good use of this spell is chucking tons of weapons at people from a long range.  If DR isn't an issue, this could be a decent application, as long as the DM lets you use Wis to modify your attack rolls.[/sblock]

16th level Ki Powers
Earliest Monk level you can obtain: 17th (Tongue of the Sun and Moon OR Timeless Body)
[sblock]Strangling Hair (3)*: Lulz, waiting till level 17 and spending 3 ki to use a level 3 spell effect, just because the damage is based on unarmed strike?  You're too funny, Paizo.[/sblock]

18th and 20th level: It's all feats or monk class features.  Maybe a future supplement will give us real options.

So there you go.  If you think I under or overestimated something, let me know below.  Hope this helps in building your Monk.


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## StreamOfTheSky

So, what might you build with this archetype?  For one thing, it actually could be a good idea to "uptrade" a class feature for a Ki Power that's better, then get it back later on as a Ki power because none of the actual Ki powers at that level are good.

So, I might do this...

5th level: Swap High Jump for Barkskin.
7th level: Swap Wholeness of Body for Gaseous Form
11th: Swap Diamond Body for Restoration
12th: Swap Abundant Step for Ki Leech
13th: Swap Diamond Soul for Abundant Step
15th: Swap Quivering Palm for Battlemind Link
17th: Swap Tongue of the Sun and Moon for Diamond Soul
17th: Swap Timeless Body for Cold Ice Strike
20th: Swap Perfect Self for Quivering Palm?

All the class features I put off till later remained at the same Ki point cost (or lack thereof), unlike some other monk class features that end up gaining in cost.


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## Kaiyanwang

I wish to point out that true strike should not be understimated. Is a maneuver, grapple included, syou are sure to land.

Another good combo is with trip and ki throw (ki throw makes you ignore the size limits, and true strike overcomes the gianormous CMD of big creatures).

Remember that the Spell Like Ability powers like TS can be quickened at higher levels with te proper feat.


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## StreamOfTheSky

Kaiyanwang said:


> I wish to point out that true strike should not be understimated. Is a maneuver, grapple included, syou are sure to land.




Good point.  I still think True Strike is 2 stars, though.  The time it wastes still hurts, and it's still a cheap magic item in wand form or whatever. When class features are at stake, I'm gonna be stingy like that.



Kaiyanwang said:


> Another good combo is with trip and ki throw (ki throw makes you ignore the size limits, and true strike overcomes the gianormous CMD of big creatures).




Sounds decent, if you're actually getting the Ki Throw feat.  Again, blowing a class feature in order to pay ki points to use a feat one round at a time is a hella bad trade.  I do find it amusing that QM offers Ki Throw way late at level 12 when a normal monk could've had it at level 7 (paying a feat) or level 10 (as a monk bonus feat).  And then just 2 levels later for the same cost in ki, it offers Improved Ki Throw.  Also, barring infinite Ki via Ki Leech I'm skeptical it's worth paying Ki with Ki Throw just to affect larger targets.



Kaiyanwang said:


> Remember that the Spell Like Ability powers like TS can be quickened at higher levels with te proper feat.




Could be useful, a feat for 3/day...  Usually if I were making a monk, my late game feats are all "stunning fist" types: Punishing Kick, Touch of Serenity, Perfect Strike, etc...  Soon as a monk hits BAB +8, he qualifies for them, and gets them (Monk Level) times per day each.


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## Kaiyanwang

I would use the Ki throw combo at very high level, in case you started as a tripper, and the GM starts to throw in big untrippable monsters. Nice the True Strike  for grapple outsiders too (high CMD).

It's a class feature + 1 feat (i intended take the Ki Throw feat). For the gain, I would take and use it, because the TS would be used with other maneuvers too, and overcomes miss chances IIRC.

I admit that I prefer the stunning alternatives, too. Being able to target will other than fortitude (ToS) is a big gain for the monk.

I think Paizo could still do more, but the class gained something from 3.5 to core, then from core to APG, and then from APG to UM.

We will see Ultimate Combat


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## Kaiyanwang

Addendum on "you are too funny Paizo".

You are sadly right. Paizo is full of awesome ideas, and I love the fact that they don't fear being groundbreaking (see, as an example, introducing gunslingers in the game).

Nevertheless, their balance REALLY sucks. And what is worse, they seem quite slow in fix mistakes.

it's a pity because I love their game so much.


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## prototype00

I kind of like the "quicken spell like ability" / "True strike" combo when combined with improved vital strike and other size increase shennanigans. At 20th level a guaranteed to hit 24d8 + trimmings attack 3/day is nothing to be sniffed at.

prototype00


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## StreamOfTheSky

24d8?  How are you getting 8d8 unarmed damage when monks in PF can't even take Improved Natural Attack?

Not to mention a full BAB class about the time you're getting Improved Vital Strike is getting Greater Vital Strike...


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## prototype00

Shennanigans, like I said. Enlarged person stacked with strong jaws (which doesn't explicitly count as a size increase, if I remember correctly). Requires some finagling (I recommend trying to swing a druid follower), but doable, I think.

But yeah, you're right about the greater vital strike, that would make this so much better, still you take what you can get with monks.

prototype00


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## StreamOfTheSky

Can you link to Strong Jaws?  I was gonna say, the only way I could think of is the Greater Mighty Wallop spell from 3E.  The thing is, though, anyone can get their damage that high then.  And yeah, QM can quicken true strike 3/day.  I'm still sure at that point his full attack would be more damaging by a fair margin.  And that other classes could outdo him.  If it works, nice combo, though.  I agree, as a Monk you just take whatever scraps you can get.


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## prototype00

Strong Jaw - Pathfinder_OGC

Unarmed strikes count as natural weapons, right?

prototype00


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## Kaiyanwang

AFAIK, the combo works.


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## StreamOfTheSky

Holy crap, I have to remember that spell for my Alchemist idea, via Ranger spell list it's available as a potion!  Alright, good find.  Obsolete in a game with 3E material since Greater Mighty Wallop is lower level (Sorc/Wiz 3 I consider "lower level" than Ranger 3), lasts 60x as long, and potentially raises damage higher.  But that's pretty solid in a PF only game.  So, Enlarge Person the Monk 20 (you need to trade the crappy Perfect Self to do that, of course), and he gets to 8d8 base damage with this?  Or is there something else?  Monk 20 is 4d8 enlarged, from there I'm not sure where it would go to.  In 3E it'd go to 8d8, but PF slightly nerfed the damage by size progression.  The Strong Jaws table shows 2d8 going to 4d6, so perhaps extrapolate from there that 4d8 goes to 8d6?

I upgraded True Strike to 3 stars, even with Barkskin.


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## Kaiyanwang

* Improved Natural Attack (Monster) *

Attacks made by one of this creature's natural attacks leave vicious wounds.
 *Prerequisite*: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
 *Benefit*: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6. 
 A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.

The feat is still useful for our poor monk: you can check the progression of damage


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## StreamOfTheSky

So...the table for Strong Jaw doesn't correlate with Improved Natural Attack?  Niiiiiiice consistency!


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## prototype00

Hmmm, I wonder if you can quicken spell like ability blood crow strike?

prototype00


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## StreamOfTheSky

You would need a very high CL, and I'm not sure that spell's worth it even then.


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## prototype00

Yeah, and on re-reading the feat, you probably don't get a ranged full attack as a swift action.

prototype00


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## prototype00

Hey Stream, I know the rest of the archetype is pretty pants, but I like the drunken master's refillable ki pool (doesn't even depend on wisdom). If you can magic up an everfull tankard, well then its finitely infinite ki points.

What do you think? Drunken master/Qinggong Monk?

prototype00


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## StreamOfTheSky

If you can trade out all the godawful Drunken Master replacement class features that come later, it could be good.  I really wish PF had said something regarding other archetypes and the QM.  If you're stuck with the all of the Drunken Master's changed class features by your DM, I would absolutely not recommend it unless you're only dipping Monk, which...I'm not sure is ever a good idea, not for 3+ levels, anyway.

I mean, looking at the later Drunken class features...

Drunken Strength: This is better than Purity of Body, but worse than the the QM options you *might* (see my OP) be able to swap it for.  The problem is for a swift action and ki point, you could be getting an extra attack and you can't do both.  And the extra attack is better.  Effectively making this useless.  At least Purity of Body might make you feel like the "king of tanking" when you fight an Otyugh or something.

Drunken Courage: Tough call.  Again, the QM offers better stuff.  Will is likely a monk's best save, though, and while fear might make you miss a fight, poison can serious mess you up.  It's possible I'm strongly biased against this just because Paladin gets immunity to fear *plus a buff aura* 8 levels earlier, which may or may not be fair to carry in reviewing this ability.

Drunken Resilience: This just sucks.  It's worse than Barbarian DR, which most people seem to think doesn't matter for much at high levels, either.  And you lose SR for it!  Awful!

Firewater Breath: FOUR ki points and a standard for a short ranged cone of fire (ie, 80% of enemies will be immune or resistant by level 19) for the same kind of damage any mid level evocation could do?  And you lose Empty Body for it?!!!!  Beyond awful.


So...yeah.  Depends heavily on if QM can replace those features.  I guess since the magnitude of suck of drunken master starts out small and grows with level, it's not so bad for a game you never expect to get to high levels.  Except for the opportunity cost of giving up QM features, which quite frankly, is pretty painful.


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