# Lost - 4/25/07 "D.O.C." (spoilers)



## Demmero (Apr 26, 2007)

IMO, one of the best episodes in a while.  Several "Holy crap!" moments.  Mikhael...Jin's mom...Sun causing Jin to become an enforcer for her father...that statement at the end of the episode.  Wow...just wow!  And more good stuff coming next month it seems.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Apr 26, 2007)

We learned that Jin is the father of the unborn child and it was Sun’s effort to save her husband from the humiliation of a whore mother that led him to become Peik’s enforcer. However, we still don’t know who killed Sun’s lover, or what became of Jin’s mother in the long term.

I wonder if they are going to kill Sun next season.

It was nice to see Charlie so forceful.

Juliet is working for Benry, who playing everyone (I bet dollars to doughnuts that Benry is setting up his “kidnapping” by Locke next week). That is just status quo. The Others seem to be endlessly playing these mind games, as evidenced by Mikhael not only not being dead, but showing up at exactly the right time with the right skills to save the injured woman. Given that the Others seem to be capable of little besides kidnapping, violence and mind games, I wonder what they did with all their time on the island before the crash gave them people to victimize.

So, the wreckage of Flight 815 was found. Well, that is going to reopen the whole “they are dead and in hell/purgatory/the twilight zone” thing. That rumor has been officially debunked, but the woman’s statement will likely give the theory some new life. It seems like someone is investing vast resources even off the island – i.e. the faking of the discovery of the wreckage. Assuming that part was faked, after all, the wreckage did wash out to sea. However, if the real wreckage was discovered, then whomever discovered it presumably got close to the island to find the debris.


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## Dubya (Apr 26, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> However, we still don’t know who killed Sun’s lover




Actually, in one of the podcasts from the creators they said that Sun's lover killed himself by jumping from the building.

Dubya


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## Demmero (Apr 26, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> We learned that Jin is the father of the unborn child and it was Sun’s effort to save her husband from the humiliation of a whore mother that led him to become Peik’s enforcer. However, we still don’t know who killed Sun’s lover, or what became of Jin’s mother in the long term.




You're assuming that Juliet told Sun the truth...a very dangerous thing to do when dealing with an Other.  

As for Jin's mother...yet another con (wo)man, to go along with James/Sawyer, James/Sawyer's girlfriend/mark, the original Sawyer, Locke's father, Benry, etc.  Lost has TONS of recurring themes and character types.



			
				The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Juliet is working for Benry, who playing everyone (I bet dollars to doughnuts that Benry is setting up his “kidnapping” by Locke next week). That is just status quo. The Others seem to be endlessly playing these mind games, as evidenced by Mikhael not only not being dead, but showing up at exactly the right time with the right skills to save the injured woman. Given that the Others seem to be capable of little besides kidnapping, violence and mind games, I wonder what they did with all their time on the island before the crash gave them people to victimize.




Ah...the time theme again!  

My sister caught something when Mikhael said he was killed "last week."  Ben told Juliet he'd meet her in a week.  With all the time travel/time jump stuff...what if the Others somehow have a Time Reset Switch (hey, Ren & Stimpy had a History Eraser Button, so anything's possible) that lets them jump a week back in time?  It would explain Mikhael being alive; it would explain how the Others always seem to be 2-3 steps ahead of the Lostaways.

Also re: Mikhael...I read somewhere else on the internet that folks thought (for some reason that escapes me) that Mikhael (and not her Robert or even Ben) is the biological daughter of Rousseau's Alex.  Funny then, isn't it, that he's creeping around one of Rousseau's old hang-outs...or was that trap really a leftover or something set fairly recently?  Hmm....

Actually, I believe that Sayid mentioned the cable and power station to Mikhael, so it makes sense that he might be investigating that area.  But then it'd be quite the coincidence that the helicopter woman just happened to land in that exact area of the island....



			
				The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> So, the wreckage of Flight 815 was found. Well, that is going to reopen the whole “they are dead and in hell/purgatory/the twilight zone” thing. That rumor has been officially debunked, but the woman’s statement will likely give the theory some new life. It seems like someone is investing vast resources even off the island – i.e. the faking of the discovery of the wreckage. Assuming that part was faked, after all, the wreckage did wash out to sea. However, if the real wreckage was discovered, then whomever discovered it presumably got close to the island to find the debris.




Yeah, you'd think a commercial airliner crash of such magnitude would be pretty impossible to fake.  Does the Hanso Foundation or whatever outside organization that's in charge of the island (Mittelos Bioscience?) really have enough money and/or political clout to pull something like that off?


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## Hand of Evil (Apr 26, 2007)

I don't know, I must be getting good at this.  It was good but only confirmed a number of 'lines of thinking' for me.  I am just surprised the did not show Jack listening in on Jullete and Sun...oh, I lay odds he was in the background.  It was also good to heard at least someone is talking to each other and passing information.  

I really like the Mikhael character.    

The plane thing is no big deal, we know the others are powerful.  Lost plane at sea, no problem.


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## RigaMortus2 (Apr 26, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> (I bet dollars to doughnuts that Benry is setting up his “kidnapping” by Locke next week). That is just status quo.




I bet that it isn't really Ben that got kidnapped, but Locke's dad.  If you notice, they never show who he has, other than some man tied to a chair with a bag over his head.  I am betting Locke questioned his dad, made the connection that his dad and Sawyer have a past (Locke's dad is the same man that is responsible for killing Sawyer's mom, he used the name Sawyer as an alias, and James Ford took the alias for himself).  So, Locke just can't seem to bring himself to kill his own dad, so he gets Sawyer to do, who is more apt to do it, because that's why he was in Sydney to begin with, to search for his mother's killer.

Whew...


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## Banshee16 (Apr 26, 2007)

The island appears to have healing powers....what if the survivors were actually killed, and "cloned" by the island or something?  They're almost like "echoes" of their real selves, who died, and were discovered with the wreckage?

My wife and I were both cheering when Jin pulled some moves on Mikhael.

Desmond had a point though....the survivors have killed more of the Others than the Others have killed survivors..

Banshee


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## RigaMortus2 (Apr 26, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> You're assuming that Juliet told Sun the truth...a very dangerous thing to do when dealing with an Other.




Yeah, but she also left the same info on the recorder for Ben.  So unless she is lying to both of them for some reason...  Why would she be lying to both Sun and Ben about the D.O.C.?


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## RigaMortus2 (Apr 26, 2007)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Desmond had a point though....the survivors have killed more of the Others than the Others have killed survivors..
> 
> Banshee




Let's do a head count...

Charlie killed Ethan
Anna Lucia killed Goodwin
Goodwin killed Nathan
Sun killed Pickett's Wife
Juliette killed Pickett - doesn't count, Other on Other action there...
Kate/Jack/Sawyer shot & killed a random Other at end of Season 2

Lostaways 4, Others 1

Am I missing anyone else?  Did Ethan kill Steve?


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## The Grumpy Celt (Apr 26, 2007)

Dubya said:
			
		

> Actually, in one of the podcasts from the creators they said that Sun's lover killed himself by jumping from the building.




Heh. I had never heard that. Funny that they would kill a plot line like that.



			
				Demmero said:
			
		

> You're assuming that Juliet told Sun the truth...a very dangerous thing to do when dealing with an Other.




It *felt* like the truth. And if it is a lie, then it is the same one she told Benry. And the writers get to wring more drama out of Sun and the fetus's impending death than they could have if the Jin was not the father.


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## Demmero (Apr 26, 2007)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Yeah, but she also left the same info on the recorder for Ben.  So unless she is lying to both of them for some reason...  Why would she be lying to both Sun and Ben about the D.O.C.?




She might be lying to Ben because she's sick of being his puppet.

She might be lying to Sun to make Sun HER puppet (Sun's life is literally in Juliet's hands now).


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## Demmero (Apr 26, 2007)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Let's do a head count...
> 
> Charlie killed Ethan
> Anna Lucia killed Goodwin
> ...




Dude...Ethan killed Scott  

Smoky killed Eko.
Shannon died due to Smoky/Others-related weirdness.

Also, Michael killed both Ana Lucia and Libby...sort of at the behest of the Others.
And the Others that took Walt firebombed the raft, leaving Michael, Sawyer, and Jin adrift in genetically-labeled, tiger shark-infested water.  Not actually murder, but not far from it.


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## RigaMortus2 (Apr 26, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> It *felt* like the truth. And if it is a lie, then it is the same one she told Benry. And the writers get to wring more drama out of Sun and the fetus's impending death than they could have if the Jin was not the father.




I concur.  It seems like the Others tell true facts when (a) they are talking to each other or (b) no one else is around listening.

I am a self-proclaimed TV/Movie expert .  It's very easy for me to predict things before they unfold (foreshadowing and all that).  I have a good inclination at this point when the Others are and are not lying.  There is no rhyme or reason to it, it's just a feeling (like you said, it *felt* like the truth).

I could, of course, be wrong.  But if I were a betting man, I would bet that Juliette was not lying in this instance.  Guess we'll see...


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## Demmero (Apr 26, 2007)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Desmond had a point though....the survivors have killed more of the Others than the Others have killed survivors...
> 
> Banshee




Speaking of Desmond...exactly how did he get a pass from being considered an Other by the Lostaways?  Did he pass Sayid's Other-detector test?


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## RigaMortus2 (Apr 26, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> Dude...Ethan killed Scott
> 
> Smoky killed Eko.
> Shannon died due to Smoky/Others-related weirdness.
> ...




Yeah, but none of these were durectly Other > Lostaway related deaths.  The Ethan Scott/Steve thing really isn't confirmed (we didn't actually see him kill him, did we?).

I was going to include Michael, but he was not an Other.  He was never originally with the Others.  He shot Anna Lucia and Libby on his own.  He had a choice, and he made the decision himself.

Mr. Friendly (or was it the guy next to him?) also shot Sawyer on the raft, but since he technically didn't kill him...


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## RigaMortus2 (Apr 26, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> Speaking of Desmond...exactly how did he get a pass from being considered an Other by the Lostaways?  Did he pass Sayid's Other-detector test?




Hmmm, that is an interesting point.  And that would be an interesting twist.  Of course, at this point, I think we (the audience) know too much about his past for him to turn out to be an Other.  The other Lostaways however...  Good point


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## Demmero (Apr 26, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> It *felt* like the truth. And if it is a lie, then it is the same one she told Benry. And the writers get to wring more drama out of Sun and the fetus's impending death than they could have if the Jin was not the father.




Several people have said that it felt like Juliet was telling the truth a couple of weeks back...right up until they cut to the scene with her scheming everything with Ben.

On a related note...does it feel to you that Danielle Rousseau is who she claims to be?  It did to me until recently.  But when people go off on their own in this show, they're usually hiding something: Paulo using the can in the second hatch, Juliet "covering tracks" in tonight's episode....  Rousseau went her own way twice recently--at Mikhael's station and then inside the Others' barracks.

I'm dying to find out exactly what she's been up to.


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## Demmero (Apr 26, 2007)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Yeah, but none of these were durectly Other > Lostaway related deaths.  The Ethan Scott/Steve thing really isn't confirmed (we didn't actually see him kill him, did we?).




Well, no, but Ethan did say that one Lostaway would die for each day Claire wasn't returned and then Scott ends up with a broken neck.  If that wasn't Ethan or the Others, what was it--a really bad nightmare?

In addition, Ethan strung up Charlie and left him for dead.  Jack (maybe with the island's mysterious healing powers giving an assist) semi-miraculously brought him back around.

So the scorecard's a bit closer than Desmond made it out to be.  Him letting Mikhael go and then bringing up relative body counts sounded way too Otherish to me...he sounded a little like Ben, in fact.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Apr 26, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> Several people have said that it felt like Juliet was telling the truth a couple of weeks back...




Again: *And the writers get to wring more drama out of Sun and the fetus's impending death than they could have if the Jin was not the father.*


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## Demmero (Apr 26, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Again: *And the writers get to wring more drama out of Sun and the fetus's impending death than they could have if the Jin was not the father.*




I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make.  Is it a given that Sun will die within the next few episodes?  Is the actress who plays her leaving the show?

Because there's plenty of potential drama either way with the fatherhood issue...and there's plenty of drama whether Juliet was telling Sun the truth or lying to her.


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## Hand of Evil (Apr 26, 2007)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Let's do a head count...
> 
> Charlie killed Ethan
> Anna Lucia killed Goodwin
> ...



Who killed the black woman?  Ecko killed one, maybe a couple, when he was being dragging into the jungle.  But, yea, the Others have killed less BUT then they have not been defending themselves.  The Others don't kill, they get others to do it.


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## Hand of Evil (Apr 26, 2007)

There is no reason for Jullette to lie to Sun, she want to see IF her drug can work on her, she needs Sun to have concieved on the island.  Claire, confirmed her theory about the 'death event'.  She needs Sun for Sun is the lab rat, and Sun will do anything Jullette says to save the baby.  All the castaways' women are.  

But...the island is not the same place it was before the sky went purple.  I still think that was an important event on the nature of the island.


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## Taelorn76 (Apr 26, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> My sister caught something when Mikhael said he was killed "last week."  Ben told Juliet he'd meet her in a week.  With all the time travel/time jump stuff...what if the Others somehow have a Time Reset Switch (hey, Ren & Stimpy had a History Eraser Button, so anything's possible) that lets them jump a week back in time?  It would explain Mikhael being alive; it would explain how the Others always seem to be 2-3 steps ahead of the Lostaways.




I think that explanation is to complicated. Some one posted on another thread that we make things more complicated than they need to be. Mikhael just faked his death. Nothing more nothing less.


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## Hand of Evil (Apr 26, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> I think that explanation is to complicated. Some one posted on another thread that we make things more complicated than they need to be. Mikhael just faked his death. Nothing more nothing less.



Other than possibility of having Locke's help in the fake.


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## Demmero (Apr 26, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> I think that explanation is to complicated. Some one posted on another thread that we make things more complicated than they need to be. Mikhael just faked his death. Nothing more nothing less.




Well, maybe, but then tell me what the obvious, uncomplicated deal is with the woman's bombshell at the end of the episode that the wreckage of flight 815 had been found and that there were no survivors.

The simple, uncomplicated answer to that (it would seem to me) is that since we know that there are survivors, she's lying.

The problem with that, of course, is that she apparently crashed a helicopter and damned near killed herself just to tell that lie.

I suppose it's possible that the passenger and tail sections of the plane were recovered from the ocean...but that begs the question of why the cockpit section couldn't be located on the island.

Nah, I think things ARE complicated.  There's way too much coincidence and weirdness going on on that island for things to be exactly what they seem.


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## el-remmen (Apr 26, 2007)

Dubya said:
			
		

> Actually, in one of the podcasts from the creators they said that Sun's lover killed himself by jumping from the building.








			
				The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Heh. I had never heard that. Funny that they would kill a plot line like that.




Actually, that was pretty obvious from the show to me.  I never doubted he killed himself.  Strikes me as odd that you could think something else.


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## Demmero (Apr 26, 2007)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> The island appears to have healing powers....what if the survivors were actually killed, and "cloned" by the island or something?  They're almost like "echoes" of their real selves, who died, and were discovered with the wreckage?
> Banshee




Interesting, but if that's the case then why didn't all of the flight 815 passengers survive the crash or have "echoes" on the island?


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## el-remmen (Apr 26, 2007)

I think yes, more Others have been killed than castaways.

DOn't forget Eko killed two when he was being dragged into the jungle, and Jack, Sawyer, Kate & Company killed at least one, maybe two on their way to the dock at the end of the second season, when Michael was leading them back to be captured.


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## Taelorn76 (Apr 26, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> Well, maybe, but then tell me what the obvious, uncomplicated deal is with the woman's bombshell at the end of the episode that the wreckage of flight 815 had been found and that there were no survivors.
> 
> The simple, uncomplicated answer to that (it would seem to me) is that since we know that there are survivors, she's lying.
> 
> ...




You were saying the reason he is alive is because the others can skip around in time. And I say the easier explanation is that he faked it. That's two seperate things Mikhael faking his death at the fence has nothing to do with this woman. (BTW She was Vanessa on Vegas), at least on the surface.


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## DonTadow (Apr 26, 2007)

I hate how the writers are playing around with this purgoatory thing agian.

I think that hanso just faked the plane landing but not on as large a scale as people are saying.   If that plane disappeared and stayed disappeared for days or weeks, all that would be needed for a confirmation was any large  part of the plane thrown out to see. If no islands are in the vicinity and most of the plane is under the water its safe to assume that no one survived.


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## IcedEarth81 (Apr 26, 2007)

Sun is probably the only one on the show that truly gets it besides Sayid. She understands the others are the enemy. She capped Pickett's woman early in the season, not buying into the "we're not your enemies" line. She asked the questions we've been wanting someone on the show to ask, "why are you taking babies/children?" I thought, finally somebody asked that. They need to be asking Juliette all kinds of questions. 

I've got to say, this season is so much better than last season. It's night and day. They have been on the ball lately. 

About the 815 wreckage being found, I definately think Dharma set that up. That way there will be nobody looking for them, and thus no chance of the island being found. Eye-patch showing up was a little unexpected, but by now we should be questioning everything we see or hear from the others. Trickery is what they are all about.


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## Hand of Evil (Apr 26, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> Well, maybe, but then tell me what the obvious, uncomplicated deal is with the woman's bombshell at the end of the episode that the wreckage of flight 815 had been found and that there were no survivors.
> 
> The simple, uncomplicated answer to that (it would seem to me) is that since we know that there are survivors, she's lying.
> 
> ...



Simple answer; The Others are so high powered that they have governments backing them.  This is not that far off, as we already know Mikhael was ex-KGB, Syhid's handler was CIA, that at one time there was a US radio station (Hugo's numbers) on the island.  You also have the amount of information on the background of the castaways.  that much power, you have a search team find a plane underwater, 200o feet deep, a 1000 miles away.  Have some ships circle the area, drivers go down, some dark fuzzy pictures and it is done.  

What this MAY mean. Walt and Micheal did not make it back! oops.


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## Arnwyn (Apr 26, 2007)

That was a pretty decent episode, and one of the best in a while (though Juliet still sucks). I really liked how forceful Sun was (almost a "just tell me what's going on, dammit!" attitude) - pretty cool, and a hearty "Yay, Sun!" from me.



			
				Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Mikhael just faked his death. Nothing more nothing less.



Probably... but I sure wish _I_ could foam at the mouth at will like that... :\



			
				el-remmen said:
			
		

> Actually, that was pretty obvious from the show to me. I never doubted he killed himself. Strikes me as odd that you could think something else.



Indeed. There are people who thought otherwise?


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## The Grumpy Celt (Apr 26, 2007)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> There are people who thought otherwise?





Well, I had thought there was some scene with Sun and whatsisface on the balcony and as a result of that confrontation he fell off the balcony. I never thought he just jumped after getting knocked around by Jin. 

And I think Sun will die next season.


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## Hand of Evil (Apr 26, 2007)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> Probably... but I sure wish _I_ could foam at the mouth at will like that... :\



Take a piece of Alka-Seltzer and put it in your mouth but the fence could have caused only an epileptic seizure, it is only temp but...


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## Demmero (Apr 26, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> You were saying the reason he is alive is because the others can skip around in time. And I say the easier explanation is that he faked it. That's two seperate things Mikhael faking his death at the fence has nothing to do with this woman. (BTW She was Vanessa on Vegas), at least on the surface.




No, I did not say that--I merely threw the idea out there as a "what if" possibility.  But your "easier" explanation that Mikhael faked his own death isn't easy by a long shot.  Tell me, how did Mikhael manage to fake frothing at the mouth and bleeding from his ear if he had his hands tied behind his back?  Kinda hard to slip some sort of capsule in your mouth or maybe slide a razor across your scalp with your hands tied behind your back.

I'm guessing that you meant that Mikhael knew there'd be a reaction when he passed through the electronic barrier and that it'd hurt but he'd ultimately survive.  But even this explanation is far from simple.  When he got zapped, Mikhael was thrown a decent ways into the barracks side of the fence.  What was to keep Sayid or one of the others from examining him to make sure he was dead?  Who's to say that they didn't examine him, and we just weren't shown that on the show?

I guess what I'm saying is that a fence that zaps people to the point that they look dead but that also depends upon other people not examining the zapped victim is complicated--not simple--and doesn't seem like such a great security system IMO.


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## Atavar (Apr 26, 2007)

A couple of things....

One, a theory I hadn't read about until now (at least not explained this way) is that the island is a rift between different quantum universes.  We are seeing a universe in which there were flight 815 sirvivors.  The parachute lady, hired by Penny to find Desmond, crosses the rift while getting to the island, and the rift she crossed is from a quantum universe in which there truly were no flight 815 survivors.  Desmond's flashes of the future are actually flashes of alternate universes in which events transpire differently.

Two, a mini-theory of my own.  Juliet tells Sun not to worry if they do not hear the baby's heartbeat because it may just be to soon to hear it yet.  When they do the ultrasound, there is a definite, strong heartbeat, implying the conception was not recent.

Thus, my Theory: The baby was conceived off of the island.  Juliet tells Sun it was conceived on the island so that Sun will let Juliet "treat" her, although Juliet will only be pretending.  She says the same lie on the tape recorder for Benry because she wants him to think she is treating an island-conceived baby, and when Sun comes to term and lives due to Juliet's fake treatment, Benry will think the baby problem is solved, have no further need of Juliet, and let her off of the island.

As an aside, Hurley's the best at one-word lines.  "Oops."  "What?"

Later,

Atavar


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## Sir Brennen (Apr 26, 2007)

I think that perhaps Mikhael was just "mostly dead" from the sonic fence, not "Dead dead", and the island healed him. 

Sun and Jin both had me cheering for them this episode. Especially when Mikhael first turned around to run off into the jungle, Jin's "Why are you standing there?" look at Charlie and Des, then tearing off after Mikhael. I also liked the confirmation of my own speculation months ago that the island healed Jin's infertility problem.

Juliette is still a sympathetic "caught-in-the-middle" character to me. While she had ulterior motives to getting info on Sun's pregnancy, I believe she really meant it when she talked about wishing she could give good news for a change. And the "I hate you" directed at Ben after she turned the tape recorder off was a nice touch.

And Sun's character getting killed off soon since we know about her pregnancy? With two months to live, that's like two more entire seasons the way this show moves along


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## Sir Brennen (Apr 26, 2007)

Atavar said:
			
		

> Two, a mini-theory of my own.  Juliet tells Sun not to worry if they do not hear the baby's heartbeat because it may just be to soon to hear it yet.  When they do the ultrasound, there is a definite, strong heartbeat, implying the conception was not recent.
> 
> Thus, my Theory: The baby was conceived off of the island.  [...]



My own thoughts were that perhaps the island accelerates pregnancies in a manner related to it's healing properties, and this somehow causes the mother's deaths.


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## Demmero (Apr 26, 2007)

Or how about this one?  Since we seemed to see Mikhael die at the fence, why not assume that he really died?

The guy that showed up in last night's episode wasn't the same man.  Maybe he was a clone.  (I certainly wouldn't put human cloning outside the medical morals of the Others.)

And while I'm on the subject of Mikhael...he definitely was expecting to find only whomever ejected from the helicopter--he came charging through the jungle with none of the usual Others' stealth, lightly armed, and then turned and bolted when he saw the Lostaways.  That leads me to believe that the woman (Naomi?) is either an Other or that Mikhael somehow knew that the helicopter was approaching the island.


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## Demmero (Apr 26, 2007)

Atavar said:
			
		

> Juliet tells Sun not to worry if they do not hear the baby's heartbeat because it may just be to soon to hear it yet.  When they do the ultrasound, there is a definite, strong heartbeat, implying the conception was not recent.Atavar




Yeah, I caught that too.  It almost seemed like a throwaway line at the time, but I don't think that Lost has a lot of throwaway lines.  Of course, I may be wrong


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## Hand of Evil (Apr 26, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> That leads me to believe that the woman (Naomi?) is either an Other or that Mikhael somehow knew that the helicopter was approaching the island.



Now, that is in line with the way the Others work, a fake comm/monitor center where nothing works, to hide the real comm/monitor center.  I keep telling everyone, there is a freaking city somewhere on that island!


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## Atavar (Apr 26, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> Or how about this one?  Since we seemed to see Mikhael die at the fence, why not assume that he really died?
> 
> The guy that showed up in last night's episode wasn't the same man.  Maybe he was a clone.




A clone with a missing eye?  Seems unlikely.... 

But that multiple quantum universe theory?  It could explain Mikhael, too.  We saw him die at the fence.  The Mikhael from last night is a Mikhael from a quantum universe in which he survived and escaped from Sayid & Co. (TM).

The thing is, the multiple quantum universe theory is too convenient...it can be used to explain just about anything.  It's the "deus ex machina" if explanations.

Later,

Atavar


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## Hand of Evil (Apr 26, 2007)

Atavar said:
			
		

> A clone with a missing eye?  Seems unlikely....
> 
> Atavar



who is saying it is missing?  I have yet to see anyone look under the patch.


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## Demmero (Apr 26, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> who is saying it is missing?  I have yet to see anyone look under the patch.




ROFL!  I thought for a second that Jin was gonna yank that sucker off last night!

And isn't there a precedence somewhere (Naked Gun movie?  Austin Powers movie?  Weird Al video?) where someone yanks an eyepatch off a villain, we see a perfectly functional second eye, and the guy who pulled off the patch yells, "Ha!  I KNEW it!"?


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## Taelorn76 (Apr 26, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> Or how about this one?  Since we seemed to see Mikhael die at the fence, why not assume that he really died?
> 
> The guy that showed up in last night's episode wasn't the same man.  Maybe he was a clone.  (I certainly wouldn't put human cloning outside the medical morals of the Others.)
> 
> And while I'm on the subject of Mikhael...he definitely was expecting to find only whomever ejected from the helicopter--he came charging through the jungle with none of the usual Others' stealth, lightly armed, and then turned and bolted when he saw the Lostaways.  That leads me to believe that the woman (Naomi?) is either an Other or that Mikhael somehow knew that the helicopter was approaching the island.




He may have seen the beacon in the night sky as well. Then seen the flare and just be curious to what was coming to the island now. Maybe he thought it was a supply drop


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Apr 26, 2007)

el-remmen said:
			
		

> I think yes, more Others have been killed than castaways.
> 
> DOn't forget Eko killed two when he was being dragged into the jungle, and Jack, Sawyer, Kate & Company killed at least one, maybe two on their way to the dock at the end of the second season, when Michael was leading them back to be captured.




Well if someone attacks you using force you don't apologize when you turn out to get the upper hand.


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## Fast Learner (Apr 26, 2007)

Seems to me that Mikhael simply saw the flare Hurley shot off, and probably saw or heard some part of the helicopter crash or parachuting the night before. Easy peasy.


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## RangerWickett (Apr 26, 2007)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> Indeed. There are people who thought otherwise?




Other: "Sun, we know you. You won't kill me. That's not who you are."

Sun: "You don't know me." *BLAM!*

That, coupled with the beginning of the episode where young Sun let the glass ballerina fall and be shattered, and then lied about it, made it implicit to me that Sun was responsible for killing her lover. It would be something that the Others wouldn't know about, so they assumed she couldn't kill.

Plus, it makes me happy to know that the enigmatic, make-no-sense Others aren't in control of everything. I mean, damn, the Others even seem to control the bloody writers on the show. How the _hell_ have the castaways not strangled Juliette by this point in order to get answers out of her?! Humans are curious creatures, and I don't buy that the entire slew of survivors all agree not to pester Juliette with questions night and day.

What's the monster?
How did you get here?
How many Others are there?
Tell us about all the locations on the island, like the hatches.
What's the statue with the four-toed foot?
Why did you kidnap people?
Why didn't you just _tell_ us that Claire could be in danger, instead of abducting her? 
What makes you think you can go around being criminals and thugs, treating us like cattle?
How do you know so much about us?
Where the BLEEP are we?!
If you like this island so much, and hate us, _and you have a boat_, why don't you just let us go?!


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## LightPhoenix (Apr 26, 2007)

Is Desmond seriously trying to make a point in "The Hostiles" favor?  His words, in the quotes.

Point aside, that was really a crappy bit of writing right there.  It should have been coming from Juliet, or Sun, or even better from Jack.  It felt like the writers decided they wanted to make that point, and shoehorned it into the episode.

Also, while the point may technically be true (though Scott, Shannon, Libby, and Ana can all be attributed indirectly to the Others), that completely disregards the psychological warfare used by the Others, as well as the kidnapping of the children.

Charlie has joined the ranks of the sane on the island it seems.  His ranting and Jin's awesomeness were the highlights of the episode.

Otherwise, I wasn't blown away by the episode, but I wasn't upset (other than above).  Generally middle of the road.


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## Hand of Evil (Apr 26, 2007)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> What's the monster?
> What's the statue with the four-toed foot?
> Why did you kidnap people?
> Why didn't you just _tell_ us that Claire could be in danger, instead of abducting her?
> ...




Six-toed statue.  They wanted the castaways to mate, so they could monitor them, they wanted them to be seperate so they did not form attachments (guys producing twice the sperm count...oh my) and to see if it was enviroment.  Castaways are freaking lab animals.  They are dead to the world anyway, lets run test on them like we are nazis!


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## Demmero (Apr 26, 2007)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> Seems to me that Mikhael simply saw the flare Hurley shot off, and probably saw or heard some part of the helicopter crash or parachuting the night before. Easy peasy.




...and just came crashing through the jungle without caution, sans a gun?  That's not the Others' S.O.P.  Nah, I still think there's more to this than meets the eye.


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## RigaMortus2 (Apr 26, 2007)

FYI...  The parachute girl (Naomi) said "I am not alone" in Portugese to eye-patch dude.


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## Fast Learner (Apr 26, 2007)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Is Desmond seriously trying to make a point in "The Hostiles" favor?  His words, in the quotes.
> 
> Point aside, that was really a crappy bit of writing right there.  It should have been coming from Juliet, or Sun, or even better from Jack.  It felt like the writers decided they wanted to make that point, and shoehorned it into the episode.



I disagree. Desmond is the perfect person to make that observation: he's not a Lostaway and he's not an Other/Hostile. He's the only main character that has any chance of being even remotely objective about it.


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## Sir Brennen (Apr 26, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> ...and just came crashing through the jungle without caution, sans a gun?  That's not the Others' S.O.P.  Nah, I still think there's more to this than meets the eye.



My impression is that he was still a bit woozy and panicked, having been mostly dead all day, and was just stumbling through the jungle, though perhaps toward the flare.


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## RigaMortus2 (Apr 27, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> And while I'm on the subject of Mikhael...he definitely was expecting to find only whomever ejected from the helicopter--he came charging through the jungle with none of the usual Others' stealth, lightly armed, and then turned and bolted when he saw the Lostaways.  That leads me to believe that the woman (Naomi?) is either an Other or that Mikhael somehow knew that the helicopter was approaching the island.




Well, Hurley fired off the flare gun, so I assumed that Mikhael saw it and went to investigate.  I don't think he knew about the Helicopter, it was more of the flare that attracted his attention.  Perhaps he assumed it was a friend/someone he knows that fire it, perhaps he was just curious, but one thing I am sure of, he didn't expect to run into the Lostaways.


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## RigaMortus2 (Apr 27, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> Six-toed statue.




The stone foot we see at the end of season 2 had four toes.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Apr 27, 2007)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> What's the monster?
> How did you get here?
> How many Others are there?
> Tell us about all the locations on the island, like the hatches.
> ...




How utterly and totally QedFT.

Benry has built a cult of personality around him, and he lies and manipulates for the sake of lying and manipulating. There may be some "For The Greater Good " explanation given at some point, but I don't think that upon analysis the actions of Benry and the Others will be consistent with pursuing that Greater Good. 

Professioally I have been in communications in some manner my entire life, as a journalist, newspaper editor and as a public relations man. And what I have learned is the *only* incidator of someone's morality and what they really want and beleive in is what they do. People lie to themselves almost as much as they lie to other people. It is what they do that matters and is revealing of personal character.

The Others kidnap people, kill people, brainwash people, perform medical tests without permission, treat people likes slaves and animals, run inefficient systems relating to island status quo and play cruel games.

Nothing the Castaways can do to the Others can be unethical or immoral, except to surrender and to comply. 



			
				RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> The stone foot we see at the end of season 2 had four toes.




It is all that remains of the vast and wonderful monument to... Homer Simpson. It's loss was a great tragedy for humanity and the marketing department of Fox Broadcasting.


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## Demmero (Apr 27, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> It is all that remains of the vast and wonderful monument to... Homer Simpson. It's loss was a great tragedy for humanity and the marketing department of Fox Broadcasting.




D'oh!  So simple...and you're right, because it stands up to a tried-and-true Lost test.
D-O-H...which letters of the alphabet are those?

4-15-8...where have I seen those numbers before?


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## Hand of Evil (Apr 27, 2007)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> The stone foot we see at the end of season 2 had four toes.



Dang, you right, now I am going to be wondering where I saw a six-toed statue!      No, I mean it, it will come to me at 3:30 AM, arrrrrr, hate when that happens!


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## satori01 (Apr 27, 2007)

I always seem to find the Jin/Sun love story angle touching.  Their marriage/relationship, though dramatic, (wrong side of the track + rich girl and all), has a spark of authenticity that is compelling to me.

Lost is a great drama, the sci-fi excepted, and I think a lot of people overlook that, or discount it.  Besides how many American TV shows have a large portion of their dialoge in a subtitled foreign language.

I can see the others faking the "recovery" of flight 815...fits in with their unethical scientific bent.  It would not necessarily be that hard, simply recover the black box, grab some wreckage and a corpse or two and put them in a sea lane for discovery.

I liked what Desmond said to Charlie.  Charlie has always been a bit bloodthirsty when it comes to the Others, after his and Claire's experience.  I also think it shows that Desmond does not truly think he is one of the Lostaways.

As for the Alt Universe, Quantum duplicate idea...I thought that at first when Desmond mis-Identified which team was going to win the Football Match....however it does seem operator error plays a large part in his interpretation of events.


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## Arnwyn (Apr 27, 2007)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> How the _hell_ have the castaways not strangled Juliette by this point in order to get answers out of her?! Humans are curious creatures, and I don't buy that the entire slew of survivors all agree not to pester Juliette with questions night and day.
> 
> What's the monster?
> How did you get here?
> ...



I am going to give this one big "ditto", because it needs to be said again, and it needs to be highlighted.


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## Banshee16 (Apr 28, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> Interesting, but if that's the case then why didn't all of the flight 815 passengers survive the crash or have "echoes" on the island?




Unclear....what if it wasn't supposed to happen in the first place, and it just affected a few of them?  Or maybe, given the island heals people, it brought back those in need of healing?  Look how many of the survivors are either flawed individuals, or needed healing from something?  Locke, Kate, Sawyer, etc. etc.

Banshee


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## Banshee16 (Apr 28, 2007)

Something I don't get is that Julie mentioned that on the island, women who get pregnant always die.  Yet on the island, men's sperm count dramatically increases.

Seems kind of counterproductive...

Banshee


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## The Grumpy Celt (Apr 28, 2007)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Seems kind of counterproductive...




It also seems like entrapment. You're on a tropical island, all the drives are there, if you do it, she dies horribly...


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## Dire Bare (Apr 28, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> Well, maybe, but then tell me what the obvious, uncomplicated deal is with the woman's bombshell at the end of the episode that the wreckage of flight 815 had been found and that there were no survivors.
> 
> The simple, uncomplicated answer to that (it would seem to me) is that since we know that there are survivors, she's lying.
> 
> ...




No, the simple uncomplicated answer to our mysterious woman claiming Flight 815 wreckage was found is that someone with lots of influence in the outside world covered up the truth of the missing flight.

Or at least that's how I took it.


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## Dire Bare (Apr 28, 2007)

Atavar said:
			
		

> The thing is, the multiple quantum universe theory is too convenient...it can be used to explain just about anything.  It's the "deus ex machina" if explanations.




Quantum universes?  Clones?  Convenient theories?

Wow.  This IS a sci fi show that is very complicated, full of twists and turns, and filled to the brim with wierd s**t, but . . .

I really think a lot of the fans are making things out to be WAAAAAAYYYY more complicated that needs be . . . or will be revealed . . .

The Heroes discussions are the same way.

Wow.  Just wow.


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## John Crichton (Apr 28, 2007)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> What's the monster?
> How did you get here?
> How many Others are there?
> Tell us about all the locations on the island, like the hatches.
> ...



All reasonable questions.  But guest what, she's not telling you or anyone else for that matter.  And that's the rub.  Until the Lostaways show her that they can outwit/beat/defeat Ben or offer her something he can't, she's not gonna be nice and share.  It's the way you would probably play it as well.


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## John Crichton (Apr 28, 2007)

Dire Bare said:
			
		

> Quantum universes?  Clones?  Convenient theories?
> 
> Wow.  This IS a sci fi show that is very complicated, full of twists and turns, and filled to the brim with wierd s**t, but . . .
> 
> ...



Heheh.  The thing that most people don't realize is that yes, it is a "high-concept" show with science fiction and mystery elements but at its heart it's a simple drama and very character driven.  If it wasn't we wouldn't have all the flashbacks.


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## Bront (Apr 28, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> I suppose it's possible that the passenger and tail sections of the plane were recovered from the ocean...but that begs the question of why the cockpit section couldn't be located on the island.



Actualy, they found it in the first 4 episodes.  The pilot was eaten by the smoke creature.


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## Bront (Apr 28, 2007)

el-remmen said:
			
		

> I think yes, more Others have been killed than castaways.
> 
> DOn't forget Eko killed two when he was being dragged into the jungle, and Jack, Sawyer, Kate & Company killed at least one, maybe two on their way to the dock at the end of the second season, when Michael was leading them back to be captured.



I don't think Desmond (or most of the Lostaways) are aware of that though.

I think Desmond got a pass at being an other with his reaction to the whole hatch thing.


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## Bront (Apr 28, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> No, I did not say that--I merely threw the idea out there as a "what if" possibility.  But your "easier" explanation that Mikhael faked his own death isn't easy by a long shot.  Tell me, how did Mikhael manage to fake frothing at the mouth and bleeding from his ear if he had his hands tied behind his back?  Kinda hard to slip some sort of capsule in your mouth or maybe slide a razor across your scalp with your hands tied behind your back.
> 
> I'm guessing that you meant that Mikhael knew there'd be a reaction when he passed through the electronic barrier and that it'd hurt but he'd ultimately survive.  But even this explanation is far from simple.  When he got zapped, Mikhael was thrown a decent ways into the barracks side of the fence.  What was to keep Sayid or one of the others from examining him to make sure he was dead?  Who's to say that they didn't examine him, and we just weren't shown that on the show?
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is that a fence that zaps people to the point that they look dead but that also depends upon other people not examining the zapped victim is complicated--not simple--and doesn't seem like such a great security system IMO.



Another options is that the healing effect of the island brought him back from the brink of death.

Of course, I have to wonder about Boone dying early if the healing effects of the island are so good.


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## Gab (Apr 28, 2007)

Bront said:
			
		

> Another options is that the healing effect of the island brought him back from the brink of death.
> 
> Of course, I have to wonder about Boone dying early if the healing effects of the island are so good.




Or about the two that were buried alive a few episodes back... is the Island keeping them alive?  :\


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## The Grumpy Celt (Apr 28, 2007)

I think One Eyed mike just faked it. Or the fence knocks people out but does not kill them. I don't think the island bring back anyone from the dead. Indeed, it seems to kill people deliberately, though the monster.


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## Mark CMG (Apr 28, 2007)

I forget.  Was it Juliette that "pronounced" Mikael dead and did Kate not check him herself?


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## Fast Learner (Apr 29, 2007)

Juliette wasn't with them. It was Locke, Sayid, Kate, and Rousseau.


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## John Crichton (Apr 29, 2007)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> I forget.  Was it Juliette that "pronounced" Mikael dead and did Kate not check him herself?



Nope, as FL said, she wasn't there.  I believe it was Locke who called the ToD.


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## Bront (Apr 29, 2007)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Nope, as FL said, she wasn't there.  I believe it was Locke who called the ToD.



He simply could be bad at finding a pulse though.  I think he said he wasn't breathing, and didn't check for one.


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## John Crichton (Apr 29, 2007)

Bront said:
			
		

> He simply could be bad at finding a pulse though.  I think he said he wasn't breathing, and didn't check for one.



 I agree on the bad pulse finding but I believe he did check for one.  :: shrugs ::


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## Mark CMG (Apr 29, 2007)

Oops.  Yup. I was mixing that up with the seond time we were shown the fence.  And as I now recall, I believe it was Locke.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Apr 29, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> However, we still don’t know who killed Sun’s lover



Sir Isaac Newton.



> I wonder if they are going to kill Sun next season.



Each season is 30 days. She'll die at the end of the fifth season if nothing changes, and they're already planning on ending the series around that point.



> I wonder what they did with all their time on the island before the crash gave them people to victimize.



According to Juliet's flashbacks, it looks like they played all sorts of head games on each other.



> So, the wreckage of Flight 815 was found.



Allegedly found.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Apr 29, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I hate how the writers are playing around with this purgoatory thing agian.



They're not. Hanso just put a wrecked plane where rescuers would naturally be looking -- 815 was so off-course, they likely never came by the real crash site.


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## delericho (Apr 30, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> But your "easier" explanation that Mikhael faked his own death isn't easy by a long shot.  Tell me, how did Mikhael manage to fake frothing at the mouth and bleeding from his ear if he had his hands tied behind his back?




How about this:

The sonic fence can cause bleeding from the ears that is painful, but not ultimately harmful. This explains why there weren't huge numbers of rotting animal carcasses at the fence. As for the frothing and appearing dead...

Mikhail (and quite possibly all the Others) had a false tooth containing an agent that caused the frothing, and also some of the poison from those spiders that got Paulo and Nikki.

The questions I have are what Mikhail was doing blundering around on the island like that (which seems very un-Otherish), and what it was he _really_ took with him when he went. Remember, the successful con has the mark looking at one hand while the other is doing something else. In this case, Mikhail drew attention to the sat-phone (obvious), and then did... what?



			
				Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Something I don't get is that Julie mentioned that on the island, women who get pregnant always die.  Yet on the island, men's sperm count dramatically increases.
> 
> Seems kind of counterproductive...




If the island vastly improves the immune system, it could well be a strong allergic reaction. The mother's body incorrectly identifies the baby as harmful and attacks it. What I don't understand is why this causes the mother to die, rather than miscarry, but perhaps the baby's own immune system fights back?

Things don't look good for Kate at this stage.


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## Hand of Evil (Apr 30, 2007)

The sonic fence and Mikhail, it is possible that the fence just caused an implant in Mikhail to go off, like the one in Claire.  This re-inforces that every one taken by the Others have had one inserted into them, meaning the fence just does not keep people out but IN.      Julette, just had the code to activate and deactivate it, being a high up on the island.


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## Cthulhudrew (Apr 30, 2007)

delericho said:
			
		

> The questions I have are what Mikhail was doing blundering around on the island like that (which seems very un-Otherish),




I assumed he was tracking down the source of the flare Hurley fired myself. He may have already been on the lookout for the helicopter (possibly he shot it down?). I think he was very surprised to see that Desmond and the others were already there- but then, I don't think the Others know of Desmond's second sight nor could they predict where it might lead him if they do know of it.



> and what it was he _really_ took with him when he went. Remember, the successful con has the mark looking at one hand while the other is doing something else. In this case, Mikhail drew attention to the sat-phone (obvious), and then did... what?




Well, it could be that he assumed everyone would be suspecting that he was just happy to get away with his life, that being what he had bargained for (when he really wanted the phone). Still, you might be on to something.


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## RigaMortus2 (May 1, 2007)

MacCutcheon is the name of a fictional brand of Scotch whisky first featured in "Flashes Before Your Eyes".

Charlie finds a bottle of MacCutcheon in Sawyer's stash.

Admiral McCutcheon is the name of a character in a television remake film of the classic story, 20000 Leagues Under the Sea (by Jules Verne). In this remake, Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje plays the character Cabe Attucks.


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## Demmero (May 3, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> Ah...the time theme again!
> 
> My sister caught something when Mikhael said he was killed "last week."  Ben told Juliet he'd meet her in a week.  With all the time travel/time jump stuff...what if the Others somehow have a Time Reset Switch (hey, Ren & Stimpy had a History Eraser Button, so anything's possible) that lets them jump a week back in time?  It would explain Mikhael being alive; it would explain how the Others always seem to be 2-3 steps ahead of the Lostaways.




Probably nothing, but...did anyone else catch what Locke's dad said the first time his son couldn't kill him?  Something along the lines of "Come back and try again--I'll be here all week."

Just saying....


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