# [FULL] OOC: Dichotomy's Age of Worms Redux [FULL]



## Dichotomy (Sep 23, 2006)

IC Thread, Part I
IC Thread, Part II
IC Thread, Part III
IC Thread, Part IV
IC Thread, Part V

_Since the beginning of history, humanity has measured time in Ages.  Ages of Glory, of Dreams, and even of Great Sorrows mark the human tally of years, giving a sense of order to the events of past centuries.  But one age has yet to occur--an age of darkness, of decay, and of writhing doom.  Witty bards and wrathful preachers know it as the Age of Worms, weaving it into the peripheries of their passion plays as a mythic era of destruction that could begin at any time.  Astrologers, diviners, and the servants of Fate know more.  The canniest among them fear that the Age of Worms has already begun._


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## Dichotomy (Sep 23, 2006)

Relatively brief introduction to Diamond Lake: [sblock]*Overview: Diamond Lake*

Diamond Lake nestles in the rocky crags of the Cairn Hills, three days east of the Free City to which it is subject. Iron and silver from Diamond Lake’s mines fuel the capital’s markets and support its soldiers and nobles with the raw materials necessary for weapons and finery. This trade draws hundreds of skilled and unskilled laborers and artisans, all hoping to strike it rich. In ages past, Diamond Lake boasted an export even more valuable than metal in the form of treasure liberated from the numerous tombs and burial cairns crowding the hills around the town. These remnants of a half-dozen long-dead cultures commanded scandalous prices from the Free City, whose insatiable covetousness triggered a boom in the local economy. Those days are long gone, though. The last cairn in the region coughed up its treasures decades ago, and few locals pay much mind to stories of yet-undiscovered tombs and unplundered burial cairns. These days, only a handful of treasure seekers visit the town, and few return to the Free City with anything more valuable than a wall rubbing or an ancient tool fragment.

In the hills surrounding the town, hundreds of laborers spend weeks at a time underground, breathing recycled air pumped in via systems worth ten times their combined annual salary. The miners are the chattel of Diamond Lake, its seething, tainted blood. But they are also Diamond Lake’s foundation, their weekly pay cycling back into the community via a gaggle of gambling dens, bordellos, ale halls, and temples. Because work in the mines is so demanding and dangerous, most folk come to Diamond Lake because they have nowhere else to turn, seeking an honest trade of hard labor for subsistence-level pay simply because the system has allowed them no other option. Many are foreigners displaced from native lands by war or famine. Work in a Diamond Lake mine is the last honest step before utter destitution or crimes of desperation. For some, it is the first step in the opposite direction: a careful work assignment to ease the burden on debtor-filled prisons, one last chance to make it in civil society.

Despite its squalor, Diamond Lake is crucial to the Free City’s economy. The city’s directors thus take a keen interest in local affairs, noting the rise and fall of the managers who run Diamond Lake’s mines in trust for the government. The city’s chief man in the region is Governor-Mayor Lanod Neff, a lecherous philanderer eager to solidify his power and keep the mine managers in line. Neff exerts his capricious will via the agency of the grandiloquent Sheriff Cubbin, a man so renowned for corruption that many citizens assumed the announcement of his commission was a joke until he started arresting people.

The alliance between the governor-mayor and his pocket police might not be enough to cow Diamond Lake’s powerful mine managers, but Lanod Neff holds a subtle advantage thanks to the presence of his distinguished brother, the scrupulous Allustan, a wizard from the Free City who retired to Diamond Lake five years ago. None dare move against Neff so long as Allustan is around.

Instead of scheming against the government, Diamond Lake’s six mine managers plot endlessly against one another, desperate to claim a weakened enemy’s assets while at the same time protecting their own. While they are not nobles, the mine managers exist in a stratum above normal society. They consider themselves far above their employees, many of whom are indentured or effectively enslaved as part of a criminal sentence. The miners’ loyalty tends to map directly to the working conditions, pay, and respect offered to the miners by their wealthy masters.

Diamond Lake (small town): Conventional; AL N; Population 1,023; 800 gp limit; Assets 40,920 gp; Isolated (96% human, 2% halfling, 1% gnome, 1% other races).
Authority Figures: Governor-Mayor Lanod Neff; Balabar Smenk, mine manager; Chaum Gansworth, mine manager; Ellival Moonmeadow, mine manager; Gelch Tilgast, mine manager; Luzane Parrin, mine manager; Ragnolin Dourstone, mine manager; Sheriff Cubbin; Tolliver Trask, garrison commander.

*How to Get There*
Most people arrive at Diamond Lake by carriage or by accident. The Able Carter Coaching Company possesses a fleet of horse-drawn coaches, and inns positioned at various points in its paths. It has direct connections between Diamond Lake and the Free City (3 days east), the town of Blackstone (1 day east), the town of Elmshire (2 days north), and Blackwall Keep (2 days southeast).

Another sure-fire way to get into town is to commit a crime in the Free City, especially one involving debts. A lot of criminals are offered extended stays in one of Diamond Lake’s mines in return for a deferred sentence, so many people arrive in town with shackles and an armed escort.

*How to Get Out*
Depending on your situation, you might have a hard time leaving the town. Hiring a coach from Able Carter costs the standard rate of 3 copper/mile. Horses are available for sale at the Lakeside Stables, but the ostler Lanch Faraday is known for rather vicious mood-swings; be sure to check any mounts you buy for odd bruises.

Passage is available across Diamond Lake, but with the lake’s excessive pollution (the result of mining run-off and extensive smelting), there are no longer any other towns on the lake’s shores. The retired marine Durskin will gladly take passengers across the lake, assuming they can deal with the smell of urine and the constant flea-bites. The Cult of the Green Lady has a sailboat and will gladly ferry passengers, as long as they’ll listen to a sermon along the way.

*Where to Stay*
Most people who lack the resources to own a residence in Diamond Lake (those that could be bothered to, that is) stay in Jalek’s Flophouse, a ramshackle warehouse within smelling distance of the lake. Anyone willing to stay within it must pay 5 cp per night, paid to a massive, helmeted mute named Golot. No one has an address at Jalek’s; the room you keep is the room you get.

It’s also possible to stay at the Midnight Salute, though most of their clientele don’t actually sleep there for long. Anyone willing to pay above-average lodging fees will find plenty of pampering for their money – and, the more money they show, the more pampering they can get.

Most travelers and passersby stay at the Able Carter Coaching Inn, but only long enough to book passage out again. Rooms cost 1 gp per night, and stabling is available for 5 sp per day. (The Lakeside Stables are cheaper for horse-storage, but Faraday’s reputation and temper bring many to consider the extra expense well-spent.)

*Where to Visit*
Every day, when weather is permitting, merchants line the central square with hand-carts full of merchandise, baskets laden with fruit or pastries, and scams to separate the foolish from their coin.

People seeking a little culture in their spending go to Lazare’s, a cozy gaming parlor facing the central courtyard. The town’s elite gather there nightly to challenge each other at dragonchess, or outwit each other at dragonfire (an ante-based card game). Visitors are expected to bring their own dragonchess pieces (each booth has its own board set into the table), but rental sets are available for the unprepared.

Those looking for more culture, but less class, go to the Emporium to see the two-headed calf, the contortionist, the fortune-teller, and several other oddities. They also go there to throw their money away at various games of chance, including dragonfire, norebonne (a dice game), and a contest known simply as the Rat Game, in which rats race through an open-topped maze. The winner then gets to fight several jermlaine while in a drug-induced frenzy.

The town is laced with run-down ale-halls with poor reputations, watered-down ale, and no entry-fee. (Both Lazare’s and the Emporium charge you just for showing up.) The busiest of these is the Feral Dog, a rather sleazy tavern known best for its dog-fighting pit and its frequent brawls. Its gaining popularity for a house-sponsored knife-throwing contest, but its ale will never win any awards.

Many people stop by the Hungry Gar to eat throughout the day, though it certainly can’t be because of the quality of the food. If you’re looking for a decent meal, go elsewhere – but stop here if you’re looking for quantity; the portions, like the proprietor, are very large.

The Midnight Salute is a by-the-numbers bordello, which means you can get just enough liquor to lower your inhibitions before engaging in more, well, engaging activity. Don’t expect much in the way of food or drink – if you’re there, you’re there for other reasons.

People looking for a more straightforward tavern – the kind where you can actually enjoy yourself without risking a knifing – go to the Spinning Giant, named for the faded fresco on the front wall of a dancing imbecilic hill giant in a yellow dress. Mostly patronized by the garrison soldiers, this place has higher-than-average quality beverages, food that actually takes some effort to prepare, and a clientele that frowns on pickpockets and rowdies. Try their garlic butter rolls, and be prepared to pay handsomely if you ask for wine.

The largest shop dedicated to food is the Rusty Bucket, a restaurant that had to change their menu after the lake’s fishing went bad (as did the lake itself). Since the owner, mine manager Chaum Gansworth, stays out of the political maneuvering common to the other managers, most of the town considers the Bucket to be neutral territory. Try the brisket, but be sure to ask for light gravy or they’ll smother your tray.

*Where to Shop*
Most shoppers in town end up in Taggin’s General Store one way or another. The interior matches the exterior: chaotic, disorderly, and verging on collapse. Somehow, Taggin manages to keep mental track of the location and quantity of everything in the store; the shelves seem to be randomly filled with whatever will fit, but the owner can rapidly find anything requested. If you’re in mind to buy a canary from his over-full cage, be warned: any canaries that get out while you’re getting one must be paid for.

Those with the money for a good-natured mugging go to Tidwoad’s, the local jeweler. The gnome running this shop brags that his display cases are theft-proof, and he will be straightforward about just how badly he’s cheating you. He will gladly buy most valuables, but starts haggling at about one-third an item’s value – except for gemstones, for which he only charges one gold in twenty. He also rents out storage vaults, with safety ensured by the presence of a pet shield guardian named Festus.

Looking for weaponry? Try the Captain’s Blade, an efficient shop that sells weaponry of all sorts. Tyrol Ebberly, an inveterate gossip with a fanatical devotion to armaments, loves to show off his best wares, and keeps a surprisingly large selection available.

If your combat style favors distance, you’d prefer Venelle’s, a distinctly-carved building near Allustan’s house. The proprietor favors bows and arrows, but she also keeps some crossbows and slings on hand. She keeps a small selection of armor and other weaponry available, having traded her own work at the Free City. To get on her good side, bring along some knowledge of elven culture.

Anything metallic can be had at the Osgood Smithy, as long as you can deal with the smell of soot, loud noise, and a blackened handshake and slap on the back from Osgood himself. His memory is nearly flawless, and his metalwork is just as good. His specialty is masterwork armor, though he leaves the leatherworking to Venelle.

Diamond Lake’s smelting facility doesn’t initially seem like a place to visit, but anyone willing to endure the stench of fumes, scalding heat, and noxious runoff can buy alchemical mixtures (and even magical brews) from the chemist Benazel. Be prepared, as he’ll talk your ear off while he wraps your purchase.[/sblock]

Full Players Guide to Diamond Lake: [sblock]The ramblings of Knuckston Grizzlebeard, common miner and regular patron of the Feral Dog Tavern, a week before his death by a falling girder in the Tilgast Mines:

So, you wanna know what life is like in Diamond Lake? Hells man, why would you want ta give a second thought about this place? It’s a piss hole. My old bones sweat their last in those mines, and I’ve got nothing to show for it except a case of gout and the hacking lungrot.

You ain’t going away are, ya?

Well then, sit down. . . I’ll talk to ye about the sights around here, but it’ll cost ya a few rounds . . . the Good Dwarven stuff too, you cheapskate.

Okay, where was I? Diamond Lake, a cesspool like no other. . .

*Politics*

Governor-mayor Lanod Neff is the head cheese around here. He’s been appointed by the Free City itself because his father was a head cheese and got him started with a position at the Garrison that he didn’t deserve. Now, he sits in his massive manor house on the hill overlooking the town. It’s constantly under construction, mostly so Neff can try to outclass the other bigwigs in this berg.

The man himself? Hells! He’s a lying, cheating philanderer who spends more time chasing tail than doing any real work. He lines the pockets of his cronies to stay in power, and pays off that sheriff to keep him and his boys in line.

If it weren’t for his brother, Allustan Neff, Lanod’s body would have been dumped into a dry mine years ago by the other power brokers in town. Allustan’s a pretty powerful Wizard, probably the smartest man in town. I heard that back in the Free City, he had designs on being the head of a wizard’s academy, but fell out of favor and was forced into retirement. 

Since he was born and raised here, he ended up back where he started. I like to think he may have ran away from the big city with his tail between his legs, but, um . . . don’t tell anyone I told you that.

Anyway, the law around here, if you wanna call it that, is a big old bastard named Sheriff Cubbin. It’s no secret he’s in the pocket of the Mayor, and spends his time drinking and carousing in the various cathouses. When he got elected Sheriff, we laughed in our cups and threw darts at his head, until he arrested us all with his private battalion of cronies. Dark hearted bastard. . .

The only other law in town is the Garrison, ran by Captain Tolliver Trask. He runs about 60 men in the old keep, but the snots never bother to step foot inside the town proper. Mostly, they patrol the miles of wilderness outside of town, and pray to their self-righteous god of honor. Truth is, Trask doesn’t care a lick for Diamond Lake, and he keeps his men out of our affairs. He’s just here to make sure his precious metropolis the Free City don’t get attacked from our direction. If anything really bad happens here, the gates of the keep will shut so fast that any honest wage earner standing in the way’ll get dashed against the walls.

*Business*

The mines are everything here, and I’ve been breaking my back inside of ‘em for 30 years. The mine managers come and go, and deeds exchange hands over blackmail, gambling, and even downright murder and theft. At least that’s the rumor. It a tough business and I can say that through it all, I’m still here, digging away to line the pockets for every backstabbing sithspit that ever owned a mine.

Right now, there are six mine managers, who are considered to be the ones that matter in town. They have the chink to ignore the law, and hire their own thugs to keep order in their respective areas of business. They fight with the mayor sometimes, but for the most part they don’t do much but bicker amongst themselves for every scrap of ore they can squeeze out of the hills. 

You want a rundown of who they are? What’s the point of that? It won’t last. . .

Ah . . . the hells with it . . . keep the ale coming. . .

Right now, the comer is Balabar Smenk. He is a fat, lecherous bastard who got his start from his old contacts in the Free City. He spends his time gambling, drinking, and scheming up new ways to take over this entire town. The mayor hates him, mostly because he’s scared. Smenk owns 4 mines right now, and is poised to get more. Balabar may have just enough of the town in his pocket to stage a coup of his own, but he’s usually too powdered up with perfume and sweaty finery to think about lifting a sword.

Of course, this has really pissed off Gelch Tilgast. Right now I work for the old fart, but it may not last. Before Smenk come into the picture, Gelch reigned over this berg for years like a petty lord, and now he’s getting a taste of what it’s like to be on the outs. I’ve even heard rumors that he’s trying to get support from other mine managers to fight off Balabar Smenk, but that’s probably hogwash. Tilgast doesn’t know which way is up these days, and they sure as hell wouldn’t deal with him after the way he’s backhanded them over the years.

He’s still better off that Luzanne Parrin. She inherited her mines from her mother, who died in the Red Death when she was still a pup. Now, twenty years later, she’s almost bankrupt, and it’s no secret that she’s sleeping with Chaum Gansworth to try and protect her own skin. She’ll be broke soon.

Chaum Gansworth has been in town for a while, and keeps a pretty low profile. Other than the fact thathe’s sleeping with Luzanne, there ain’t much to tell. He does own the Rusty Bucket, and has dinner there quite often. I guess his mines are doing okay, but then again . . . how the hell am I supposed to know?

The same can be said for the other two mine managers. One’s an elf, some prancing panty waste named Ellival Moonmeadow. He only owns one silver mine, and doesn’t have anything to do with regular townsfolk like us. He just hangs out with his fellow elves, doing . . . well, whatever it is elves do when they’re together. Haw ha!

The other one is a dwarf, named Ragnolin Dourstone, who’s been here ever since I can remember. Like most Dwarves, he does well for himself in the mining profession, and has handpicked a number of spots to start new mines, all of them pretty damn successful. So far, neither Tilgast nor Smenk has managed to dent his business one bit . . . though they’ve both tried their best over the years.

In addition to the mines, all six mine managers share a single smelting house, located near the old piers. It’s pretty much monopolized by the city council in the Free City, and run like a tight ship. The chief smelter, Vulgan Durtch, is a recluse, and the entire operation resembles a fortress with no windows, and no unguarded entrances. They had to step things up a bit security wise, after one of the mine managers sabotaged a rival’s shipment.

*History*

Well, I can’t really go back all that far. My memory gets a little fuzzy when I think back to the old days. . . I do know that the area near the lake was run by some uppity feudal lord a long time ago. He built a keep, which currently houses the Garrison’s men. There are also a couple of old fences in the cairn hills where he tried to get his farming subjects to grow carrots and potatoes. I wonder how many of the idiot’s subjects starved to death!

Well, his sons started exploring the cairns and old gravesites that litter this whole area. I guess they found quite a bit of loot from the olden days . . . and I don’t mean 50 years ago. I mean really old days. Hundreds of years ago.

Anyway, all this loot attracted the attention of the Free City, and pretty soon they bought off the noble kids and annexed this whole area for themselves. They hired a group of adventurers to explore it all, and sucked every last treasure dry from those old tombs. That would have been the end of Diamond Lake, except prospectors and surveyors came in and took measure of the land. It’s still useless for growing anything but weeds, but wouldn’t you know they discovered a massive cache of silver lodes and massive veins of iron under the hills, including the one we’re sitting on right now? 

Now, years and years later, it’s said that that we’re the cornerstone of the Free City’s ore supply. Not like they’d pass any of that wealth onto common laborers like us, you understand. When I was a kid, getting a meal was as easily as casting a line in the Lake. Now, the smelting house and associated runoff has polluted the water so much, the merchants have to send off to the Free City just to get a week-old, salted flounder.

As far as recent history goes, there ain’t much to tell . . . honest folk are still getting screwed and the wealthy are still getting richer off of our sweat. Let’s see. . .

There’s an old ring of stones out in the boonies, called the Menhirs. It’s visited by Rangers, Druids, and other freeloaders. No one knows who built it, but they say the worn stone have been there for centuries.

The Old Observatory used to be a haven to some scholarly Monks, who used to prance about and read off astrology. They packed up shop when I was just a kid, and since then it’s pretty much sat abandoned. 

Then, of course, about 19 years ago, a pretty bad plague called the Red Death swept through and killed a good many of us. I lost my sister to the Boneyard, and me son’s still got vapors and can’t make a living. I even had it myself, but it’s weren’t too bad on me. I did get a pretty lumpy scar from it on the back o’ my head though. You wanna see it?

No?

Ah well. . .

*Entertainment*

There’s nothing like spending a day’s wage in Diamond Lake. We may not get much in the way o’ housing, sanitation, or any of that frilly city crap that doesn’t do any good anyway . . . but we do have entertainment in spades.

If you have the money, the Emporium is the place to be. It’s run by a lady of the night, Zalamadra, and she’s got a whole cadre of the sweetest ladies you ever saw at her disposal. They sit in perfumed glory in the upstairs area she calls the Veiled Corridor. There aren’t any veils there that I’ve seen, but then again, I’ve never asked for one. There’s also a Den on the top floor where you can obtain the use of other substances that twist your mind around and make you talk funny, if you’re into that. There are plenty of games of chance, and a very interesting freak show downstairs full of dangerous and exotic creatures. Just last week, I heard a rumor that a crazed demon child escaped it cage and went on a fiery rampage. They haven’t caught it yet, and I’m keeping a sharp lookout. They say its hide has magic designs on it, and I’ll bet its worth a few pennies to its owners. I have a boot dagger handy in case I run into the thing.

If you like boredom, you can always visit Lazare’s House. It’s a fancy, high class place with a steep price I remember when Lazare managed a mine in town, until his wife got sick and he was bankrupted, selling everything to that bastard Smenk. Inside his place, there’s no music, no dancing girls, and no fun. I heard everyone sits at tables and plays Dragonchess, a game with over 40 pieces and a multilevel board. Lazare used to be a champion, and has somehow pushed his habit on some of the upper crust. It’s a snore, but at least you can gamble on it.

If you find yourself a little light of chink, there are a few other places you can visit for fun. The Midnight Salute is a pretty cheap place to get some female action, but they cater heavily to the Garrison’s crowd. If you’re looking to get drunk or do some low-end betting, there’s the Feral Dog, where you can see some pit dogs tear each other to pieces, and get into a bar brawl or two. It can get rough, even for a guy like me, but it’s worth it because they don’t charge you to get in. Your other choice among the chaff is the Spinning Giant, but the other patrons are usually garrison soldiers, so you have to be tolerant of drunken chants and men who like to slap each other on the butt. They don’t tolerate stealing or bad manners, and there isn’t a card game to be found anywhere in the vicinity.

If you’re just hungry for some food, you can go to the Hungry Gar. The chef there is a pretty decent cook, but there’s only so much you can do with snared rabbits and deer meat. One alternative is the Rusty Bucket, which has a pretty decent common room as well.

Finally, if information of the outside world is your cup of tea, many out-of-towners stay at the Able Carter Coaching Inn. The main thrust of the business is running coaches and supplies back and forth to  other parts.  Boarders from all over stay there, mostly for short term business, so a good conversation about other part o’ the world are in good order there. Plus, if you’re willing to pay, they’ll take horses too. 

Nine Hells, you can always do what I do. You can always spend thirty years of your life slaving away to Gelch Tilgast, only to see your life get poured down the drain when he sells the mine to Balabar Smenk in a few years. Smenk pays two coppers cheaper, and you work a longer shift. Bastards.

*Shops*

There are plenty o’ places to get business done in Diamond Lake. You got something to buy or sell, you can most likely procure your needs right here.

Let’s see. . . we got Tidwoad’s Jewelry, run by a uppity gnome of the same name. He cheated my mother out of her jewels for half their worth, so I can’t vouch for his honesty, but you should see his collections in the window – whew! . . . He swears that his shop is burglar proof, and so far, no one’s taken him up on the challenge. I’d like a few of those baubles for myself, that’s the honest truth.

The General Store is where you can pick up just about any mundane equipment you’d ever need. Taggin runs it pretty reasonable, and has all the supplies you need to travel overland for a month, or survive a mountain climb. He stays outta people’s business, and sticks to his own outfit.

The Lakeside Stables are run by a half-elf named Lanch Faraday. I ain’t ever owned a horse myself, so I don’t know him well. I only met him once, during a card game, but I took my leave when he upset a table and pulled a knife. He’s a mean, sour drunk, but he takes care of most of the community’s horses, so he can’t be all bad.

If you’re looking for weapons, Tyorl Ebberly has a good shop. He claims to be a watch captain in the Free City, but he must’ve done something wrong to end up here. He has a few artifacts from the Cairn hills that he’s found. If your interested his place is called The Captain’s Blade.

Venelle’s contains some of the finest bows in the land. Venelle herself is happy to sell anything she has, if she can locate it through all the clutter o’ her shop. I took up bow hunting myself once, and stood all day in a tree stand, on her advice. The only thing I caught was a damned cold.

Manlin Osgood. . . now there’s a man I can hang a reputation on. He’s a right fellow and an able drinking companion, if his head’s right. He doesn’t bluff at cards, he’s always ready with a backslap and a handshake, and he makes the finest masterwork armor in the region. A few from the Free City come to Osgood’s Smithy special, just to access his team of apprentice blacksmiths.

That’s about it. There are other places in town to get things, but I wouldn’t recommend it. When your life depends on a wooden girder underground, you better make sure the right hands set it up, if you catch my meaning.

In Diamond Lake, it’s better to be gouged by an honest exploiter than outright cheated by a thief, so stick to those places I mentioned . . . you should be fine.

*Churches*

There are a few churches in town that have gained a following, but I wouldn’t recommend any of ‘em. The best church for me are the Halls of the Veiled Corridor, where you can tithe your money for a cause that’s worthy of your coin, and get a little bit of sweetness besides.

However, if you insist, you can go to the Church of Ct. Cuthbert, right on the center of town. The sermons there are full of piss and vinegar, led by Jierian Wierus, whose favorite activity is to flog his own backside with a cat-o-nine-tails, and go to the seedy parts of town to covert others to do the same. His following is 150 strong and growing.

If they’d make you feel welcome, you can go to the garrison and sit at the Chapel of Heironeous. It’s mostly full of soldiers, who like to puff themselves up with honor before riding around the countryside in their fancy armor. Valkus Dunn is the righteous bastard in charge, preaching about public do-goodery, but doing nothing about it. He opens the service up to the public, but no one goes except men who swing swords for a living.

If you like nature, you can traipse out in to the boonies to visit the Bronzewood Lodge. Its run by Nogweir, a cleric of Obad-Hai who likes to scare people about bogeymen in the hills, but I can’t imagine why they’d sit out in the middle of nowhere with nothing to entertain them. Trying to fill the coffers so he can get back to real civilization is my guess.

There’s also a Temple of Wee-Jas around here somewhere, called the Cult of the Green Lady, but you won’t see them much unless you go the Boneyard and visit the graves they tend to. When my Suzie died from the Red Death, they took her thin, deformed bones and washed her up real pretty. Then they stood around and gave a little speech about mortality and life, but I didn’t have a penny to give ‘em. They went ahead and did it for free.

Anyway, that’s pretty much a good rundown of Diamond Lake for ya. You wasted enough of my time, so get out of my face and stop asking questions. I got a few coppers left in my pocket, and I want to get to the Emporium to see that damned two-headed mule again . . .



Knuckston Grizzlebeard was buried in the Boneyard of Diamond Lake. His burial was overseen by the Cult of the Green Lady, and he is survived by his adult son Renald Grizzlebeard, in the direct custody of the mine manager Gelch Tilgast.

“The joys of the rich man are nothing, as they who hang around with sinners, scoffing at the simple paths of righteousness. Their delights are a pittance compared to eternity, and their rewards shall be devoured by the wriggling powers of darkness. They seem as trees along a riverbank bearing luscious fruits, but I tell you: they are plagued from within by blind, consuming things that eat without mercy and leave nothing behind. Not a one of them will be safe on the day of final judgment, when the slithering darkness feasts upon them. We tread toward a red day, full of writing doom and a dread feast of bloated, ravenous hunger. Dark times is coming. Slithering times, when the clouds snuff the sky and the austerity of flesh is the path of salvation. Be ready, and prepare your body for the coming Age . . . an Age of Worms . . .” - Jierian Weirus, Priest of St. Cuthbert


*This guide created by WerePlatypus on Paizo.com boards.[/sblock]


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## Dichotomy (Sep 23, 2006)

BACKGROUND ON THE TOWN OF DIAMOND MINE AND ITS INHABITANTS [For characters with ranks in Knowledge (local) only]
[sblock]
The Emporium

Every week, hundreds of miners boil up from the depths, their pockets lined with freshly earned coin. The Emporium exists to separate the men from the money, and at this it is paramount among Diamond Lake's diverse businesses. Ten years ago it was simply Zalamandra's, one of a dozen vice dens along the Vein. Its ill fortunes changed the day its charismatic young madam seduced Professor Montague Marat, proprietor of a traveling sideshow and curiosity collection passing through Diamond Lake. The two soon joined forces, and a cavalcade of freaks and eccentrics moved into the building's lower floor. Thus was born Zalamandra's Emporium, and Diamond Lake has never been the same.

Upon entering, visitors encounter a small desk station manned by a grinning, businesslike attendant named Gaspar. The thin, balding man smiles wryly at all times, a gesture accentuated by his upcurled moustache. The house charges three coppers for access to the 'Gallery of Science' along the first floor's central corridor, and three silver for access to the lushly decorated upper floor, which features a large gaming hall, an exclusive entertainment club, and the infamous Veiled Corridor, where any pleasure may be obtained for the right price.


Lazare's House

Those seeking a relatively cultured nightspot often congregate at Lazare's House, a cozy gaming parlor situtated on the Vein's central square. In contrast to the ostentatious banners and garish chipped paint on the Emporium across the street, Lazare's exudes a quiet sense of class with a stylish stone and timber construction and distinctive crooked-peaked roof. Inside, Diamond Lake's elite match wits over dragonchess, a popular game in which two sides of 42 pieces contest over three 96-square boards representing the sky, the earth, and the underworld. Pieces include the griffon, sylph, oliphant, basilisk, hero, thief, and paladin. Scholars claim that the game is a metaphor for the celestial struggles of fundamental law, chaos, good, and evil. In Diamond Lake, it's principally another justification for gambling.

A central hearth, constantly stoked by the courteous staff, serves as the hub of a roughly circular interior. Along the ring, eight alcoves offer an excellent location for private conversation or even romantic trysts. Each alcove is a half-moon of posh benches encircling a rectangular table bearing a special built-in dragonchess board. Visitors are expected to bring their own pieces, but may rent a house set for 2gp. This fee effectively keeps out the riff-raff, making Lazare's a haven for visiting dignitaries and Diamond Lake's upper class.


The Feral Dog

Since both Lazare's and the Emporium charge a small fee for entry, Diamond Lake's poorest laborers must turn to a collection of run-down ale halls with more sullied reputations. The busiest by far is The Feral Dog, a sleazy tavern on the Vein's central square. Every night and especially when the workforces of several local mines let out at the same time, cheering laborers within the bar scream obscenities and wave betting vouchers over two dogs in a lethal pit fight. No one savors the tinny ale, but the place is more about camaraderie, bravado, and desperation than about expecting exemplary quality or service.

A gang of criminals casts a broad shadow over The Feral Dog's squalid taproom. The patrons know from experience to respect the word of Kullen, the silently seething albino half-orc who leads the motley band with little tolerance for insolence and a powerful backhand.

Arguments commonly erupt at the Feral Dog, especially during the dogfights, when betting often grows contentious and even violent. About once a month, a drunk miner falls or is pushed into the thrashing dog pit, with predictably tragic results. During the worst brawls, someone usually gets knifed. A festering garbage pit in the sharp crags behind the building is said to hold the corpses of as many humans as dogs.


Church of St. Cuthbert

Each of the establishments along the Vein's central square trade in the exploitation of human vice or false hope, and the tower-flanked Church of St. Cuthbert is certainly no exception. Within this austere stucco structure, the poorest of Diamond Lake's poor huddle in a torch-lit sanctuary listening to the fiery sermons of Jierian Wierus, a bombastic orator whose populist rants appeal to the best virtues and values of the common man while at the same time preying upon their fears and superstitions. Wierus endlessly preaches a creed of common sense, honesty, and self-sacrifice, encouraging his faithful to give penance to St. Cuthbert by whipping themselves in repetitive acts of self-mortification. His growing cult, now some 150 strong, gives succor to the dregs of Diamond Lake society and is seen as a menace by the town's mine managers, government, and other religious figures. Many claim that the flagellants seem to follow Wierus as much as they do St. Cuthbert, and it is only because the charismatic firebrand somehow keeps his followers from breaking the law that his sect has been allowed to thrive. 


Tidwoad's

Sooner or later, adventurers looking to sell loot will cross paths with Tidwoad, a cantankerous jeweler with a meticulously arranged shop located on the Vein's central square. Tidwoad's is as close to a bank as one can find in Diamond Lake, and the gnome keeps several small vaults in the crawlspace below his workshop. He maintains a collection of his finest gems in a showroom display case, boasting that his establishment is completely theft proof. A shield guardian named Festus helps to keep the gnome's theft-free streak alive with powerful stone fists and a constant focus on protecting the shop.


Sheriff's Office

When a barroom brawl gets out of hand or when visitors threaten to upset the balance of power in Diamond Lake, Governor-Mayor Lanod Neff relies upon the discretion and agency of his private police force, assembled from a collection of corrupt watchmen gathered during Neff's youth as a watch captain in the Free City. Nearly all of them were drummed out of service in the capital due to some indiscretion, but each maintained a hold over municipal authorities (often in the form of potential blackmail fodder) strong enough to ensure that they were not bounced from the service entirely, but instead reassigned to Diamond Lake.

Led by a boisterous alcoholic named Sheriff Cubbin, the six thugs who comprise the constabulary see to the general safety of the town and ensure that Neff's schemes go off without a hitch. They take a keen interest in unusual visitors and in the dealings of the town's mine managers, Balabar Smenk and Gelch Tilgast in particular. The police don't care one whit about crimes committed against the mine managers' agents, but decorum insists that they persecute overt crimes committed against the managers themselves to the full extent of the law.

The Sheriff's Office off the Vein's central square contains living quarters for all six constables and a twelve-cell jail filled with a motley assembly of drunks and maniacs.


General Store

Running a successful business in Diamond Lake means avoiding entanglements with the constantly maneuvering mine managers and scrupulously avoiding favoritism (real or perceived). No merchant better understands this reality than Taggin, the amiable master of the town's largest general store. Tables line the walls within, stacked high with rope coils, lanterns, bottles, gloves, and gear. Wagon wheels rest against barrels filled with nails or candles. The inventory includes most common adventuring gear, and Taggin cheerfully offers to special order anything he does not have in stock from the Free City, a process that 'usually takes about a week.' Taggin is just shy of middle age, but dresses somewhat stylishly for his class. He has a handlebar mustache and full, receding blond hair. He treats women of any race with exceptional politeness.


The Hungry Gar

Guld Tortikan, head chef at the Hungry Gar, claims to serve the finest meal on the Vein. He is mistaken.


Jalek's Flophouse

When the lake turned foul, Diamond Lake's modest fishing industry fled the town, leaving a wake of empty warehouses and bankrupted fishers. Some of these warehouses became stockades for mine managers, packed with raw ore and letters of credit from the Free City and beyond. Others fell to ruin and became infested with squatters and addicts. Jalek's Flophouse, situated on Front Street within smelling distance of the lake, is the town's most famous warehouse, as it houses nearly a dozen pitiful indigents fighting off destitution with a handful of copper. A rotting wooden framework within supports a lurching, mazelike second floor, where every step brings an alarming creak and the walls thrum with muffled conversation. Lodging is 5 coppers a night, paid to a massive, helmeted half-orc mute named Golot. The brute pummels those who do not pay until they flee or die. No one has an address at Jalek's - the room you have is the one can keep. Most rooms lack doors, let alone locks, but the shifting inhabitants and the chaotic layout of the upper floor makes it one of the best places to disappear in all of Diamond Lake. The halfling landlord Jalek lives in a rooftop apartment and is seldom seen. The Cuthbertine flagellant Jieran Wierus frequently visits the flophouse, where he recruits a growing tide of converts.


Smenk Residence

A corpulent elemental of corruption and bad taste, Balabar Smenk lords his political clout over everyone in Diamond Lake save the governor-mayor and garrison commander, whom he privately mocks. Smenk has wrestled four mines into his possession in the last ten years, and has designs upon the rest. A coven of sycophants and hired goons surrounds him at all times. Rumors suggest that he has powerfully connected friends in the Free City.

Smenk lives in a sodden old mansion a century past its prime. Three thugs patrol the streets around his home, warning anyone they see to go away with a sneer and the brandishing of a lead pipe. Despite these precautions, Smenk's front door is always wide open, fulfilling an old public promise that he would always be available to his miners.


Deepspike Mine

Balabar Smenk uses this abandoned mine only for storage (and, rumor has it, occasionally to disappear the body of a slain enemy). It is protected by a padlock on an iron door.


Garrison

Centuries ago, long before the foundation of the Free City, a petty lord commanded the shores of the lake and the nearby iron ore and silver mines from a sturdy hilltop keep. Today, the refurbished ruin of that keep serves as home to more than 60 members of the Free City Militia, soldiers tasked with patrolling the northern hills, keeping watch over the lizardfolk-infested Mistmarsh to the south, and liaising with halfling, gnome, and dwarf communities in the region.

A third of the soldiers are always out on patrol, a wide circuit of nearby roadways and wildlands that takes them away from Diamond Lake for a week at a time. Remaining soldiers drill, maintain the garrison, hunt, and familiarize themselves with local terrain.

The bored soldiers present rich mining ground for a cadre of clerics and paladins of Heironeous, who provide spiritual and magical aid to the warriors from a stately chapel within the garrison fortress.

Captain Tolliver Trask, the garrison's aging commander, distinguished himself in a recent war and has the respect of his charges and of the community at large. He cares little about the day-to-day politics of Diamond Lake, and encourages his men to stay out of local business. He sees his job as critical to the defense of the Free City. Diamond Lake is just something that happens to be near his important work.

He supports Governor-Mayor Lanod Neff out of respect for the political process that put him in power, if not for the man himself. He trusts three advisors more closely than any of his other associates. The Heironean chief cleric Valkus Dun acts as Trask's spiritual advisor and foil. Trask's best friend is Dietrik Cicaeda, the middle-aged Chief Cartographer of Diamond Lake. Cicaeda is the region's sole legal authority regarding issues of land ownership, making his journals and maps among the town's most valuable treasures. He and his work thus enjoy the official protection of the garrison's walls and soldiery, and remain safely locked away from the town's manipulative mine managers. Chief Scout Merris Sandovar, lately of the Bronzewood Lodge druidic community three hours northeast of Diamond Lake, rounds out Captain Trask's inner circle.

The complete garrison force consists of 60 soldiers. Militia members typically wear leather or chainmail armor and carry a longsword or shortbow. This force is divided into thirds, with each squad led by a lieutenant. These individuals have the ear of Captain Trask and the admiration of their charges.


Chapel of Heironeous

Most of the guards and soldiers serving in the Diamond Lake garrison honor Heironeous as the patron of justice and martial prowess. The Invincible One's temple is little more than a large high-ceilinged chamber within the garrison itself, but it boasts the second largest congregation in Diamond Lake, as well as one of the village's most dynamic personalities in the form of its high priest, Valkus Dun.

Dun came to Diamond Lake two years ago, after the previous high priest vanished under mysterious circumstances. Local gossip holds that Dun once had great prospects in the Free City's immense Sanctum of Heironeous, but that politics saw him exiled to an assignment in squalid Diamond Lake. Nevertheless, Dun took to his assignment with zeal, and the weekly services have taken on an activist spirit. While the garrison commander urges his charges to stay out of local affairs, Dun instills in them a duty to the villagers and urges them to make a difference in the community. the resulting tension, between the garrison commander and Valkus Dun as well as between the Heironean soldiers and the disreputable elements of Diamond Lake (which is to say nearly all of them), is palpable.

A massive wall fresco of a mythic battle between perfect Heironeous and his traitorous half-brother Hextor looms over the chapel's bronzewood altar. The holy image is lit by dozens of guttering torches at night and by several stained-glass windows during the day. Weekly services exhibit a great deal of fraternity and sober, harmonic hymns. The are open to the public, but are dominated by soldiers and guards. 


Lakeside Stables

While the common folk of Diamond Lake have plenty of reason to despair of their living conditions, they remain several times more fortunate than the community's horses, who predominantly dwell in the run-down Lakeside Stables under the careful watch of the brutal Lanch Faraday, a portly ostler prone to distressing mood swings. Customers commonly complain of mysterious bruises on their horses, evidence of Faraday's uncontrollable rages. Still, the price is right, and the walls around back keep the horses relatively safe from theft, so no one has yet pressed the issue. 


The Midnight Salute

This by-the-numbers house of ill-repute caters to the garrison crowd and anyone seeking a less exotic (and less expensive) experience than that offered by the Emporium's legendary Veiled Corridor. Its proprietess, the ravishing Purple Prose, stresses discretion and decorum with her workforce.


The Spinning Giant

When not drilling, sleeping, or on patrol, garrison soldiers flock to this raucous two-story tavern to meet with friends, chant drinking songs, and drown themselves in ale and good cheer. A blue-shingled roof tops filthy white plaster walls. A faded fresco painted on the building's face depicts a dancing imbecilic hill giant in a yellow dress. Patrons must enter and exit via a door positioned between the giant's legs. This is Flailing Felanore, a dim-witted young giantess captured by the garrison militia 40 years ago and 'granted' to the proprietor of a favorite watering hole to serve as a mascot. The attraction worked, drawing visitors from as far as the Free City to gawk and stare at Felanore's awkward gyrations. Though Felanore died from an outbreak of the Red Death plague, nearly 20 years ago, the free-standing circular center stage on which she once pranced remains the most prestigious musical venue in town, if not nearly the most titillating.

Garrison soldiers make up most of the Spinning Giant's regular patrons, with a handful of mine overseers and merchants rounding out the crowd. Most who come here consider themselves honorable, and expect similar conduct from others. They do not tolerate pickpockets, and respond harshly when confronted with a crime in progress. They hold a similar disdain for Diamond Lake's constabulary, and have made it known on many occasions that Sheriff Cubbin and his boys are not welcome on the premises. Nor do they welcome Diamond Lake's poor, including most miners. Regular patrons routinely "suggest" that riffraff instead visit one of Diamond Lake's other fine establishments. Soldiers act with bravado in these encounters, knowing that most of the Spinning Giant's other customers will have their backs should a fight break out.


The Captain's Blade

Tyrol Ebberly, a severe-looking man who claims to have once been a watch captain in the Free City, runs this small shop with efficiency. He's an absolute fanatic about weapons, always showing off his masterwork items with enthusiasm. He's also an inveterate gossip, and asks endless questions about peoples' affairs, trying to learn more about how they were wounded or why they're looking for money. Ebberly has any melee weapon up to 900 gp in stock, but must send away for more expensive items, a process that takes several days. He specializes in masterwork melee weapons, and keeps his surprisingly wide selection displayed on the walls. He does not offer any masterwork ranged weapons, and sends anyone looking for them to Venelle's, across town. "Don't forget your coin purse," he sniffs indignantly. "You're sure to need it there."


Venelle's

A redolence of fresh pine suffuses this handsome establishment, a distinctive structure that incorporates intricate carved patterns and upright logs. The proprietor, a curious woman named Venelle, makes masterwork bows and arrows, and also deals in other weapons and armor imported from the Free City in exchange for items of her own design. The shop is a bit chaotic, with various items piled on tables. Armor sits loosely on too-small dummies. Venelle has a touch of elven blood about her, and is pleased to entertain guests who appreciate arrowcraft and elven culture. She has friends among the Bronzewood Lodge, and greets other characters from that nearby community with smiles.  Venele carries most weapons and armor priced up to 900gp, but must send away for more expensive items.


Allustan's Residence

The "smartest man in town," a friendly wizard named Allustan, dwells within a charming red and deep blue house on one of the rare stretches of healthy grass in all of Diamond Lake. A small meditation garden abuts the face of the house, incorporating vertical stones and small pools of concentric circles. The fresh paint and well-tended yard contrasts sharply with the rest of the seedy town, a testament to the locals' respect for (or fear of) a man whose prowess is known as far as the Free City.

Allustan grew up in Diamond Lake with his brother, Lanod Neff. The sons of the town's powerful and efficient governor-mayor, they abused their influence and shamed the mine managers with social indiscretions. When finally they went too far, their father sent them both to the Free City, urging Allustan to seek an education and placing Lanod in a plum assignment with the city watch. Allustan soon found himself in the prestigious University of Magical Arts, where his apt scholarship and bravado caught the attention of a powerful master wizard named Tenser, a dynamic figure who traveled with some of the most renowned heroes of the day.

Tenser offered to take on Allustan as his apprentice, assuring him a life of thrills and discovery. What Allustan got was a window into a world of manipulative chessmasters willing to backstab trusted friends to honor abstract principles of balance and neutrality.

Though he thrived in the company of Tenser and his ilk, the politics proved too much to handle, and he split with the group more than a decade ago after a bitter ethical dispute. He retired to Diamond Lake only to find his inept brother in charge and facing challenges from all sides. So he remains, knowing that his presence supports a corrupt leader but unwilling to leave his family to the wolves. The same political disinterest that got him into trouble with Tenser keeps him from seeing the worst of his brother's offenses.

Allustan offers his library and considerable intelligence to the citizens of Diamond Lake as a sage, although few miners have reason to seek his services. Allustan charges a standard rate of 20 gp per question. He does this more to sate his curiosity than for the money; gains from his adventuring days easily cover his modest lifestyle.


Tilgast Residence

Ten years ago, the aging Gelch Tilgast held the reins of Diamond Lake's ore trade, a position he'd enjoyed most of his life. Then Balabar Smenk and his boundless ambition came to town. In his youth, Tilgast would have relished the challenge, but he didn't move fast enough to block Smenk's ascent, which has led directly to his own decline. Tilgast currently fuels enormous energy into building an alliance against Smenk that includes Luzane Parrin and a handful of weak mine managers from the neighboring towns of Steaming Springs and Blackstone.

The grandeur of Gelch Tilgast's stylish estate far outstrips its owner's current influence, which has been in free fall since Balabar Smenk first infested Diamond Lake. Tilgast maintains a family of seven fine thoroughbred horses within a well-managed stable enclosed in a stockade wall. Wealthy visitors and a few residents of the town pay 1 gp per day to stable a favorite horse within the compound, where a clutch of meticulous grooms tends to the animal's every need.


Old Piers

In decades past, nobles from the Free City flocked to Diamond Lake to sail upon its crystal clear waters. Mine tailings, waste runoff, and other pollution ended the practice almost a century ago, but the rotting carcasses of once elaborate piers still jut into the lake's murky waters. A few masts peek out from the surface, tombstones of abandoned fishing vessels from more recent times. Regular fish cannot survive in the tainted waters, leaving only dangerous, hardy predators like the ravenous, toothy gar that have become such a problem in recent years. Those who venture across Diamond Lake do so at their own risk.

For a piece of silver, a retired marine named Durskin will ferry up to six passengers across the lake in his sloop, a dingy vessel called the Autumn Runner. The destitute boatman lives on the deck of his boat, which smells of urine and teems with fleas and sea mites. Those seeking a safer passage must rely upon the Harkness, a ten-man sailboat maintained by the shadowy cult of the Green Lady, who use the vessel to cross back and forth between Diamond Lake and the cairn in which their order holds its services to Wee Jas, goddess of magic and death. Passage on the Harkness costs 3 sp, and passengers must endure bothersome sermons on the exquisite beauty of death and the arcane prowess of the Dark-Eyed Lady. In either case, it takes about 30 minutes to cross from one shore of the lake to the other.


Able Carter Coaching Inn

The Able Carter Coaching Company connects the Free City to its satellite towns via a fleet fo horse-drawn coaches and an inn positioned in every leg of the journey.  Diamond Lake’s hostelry offers 20 rooms for let at a rate of 1 gp per day.  Stable services are available for a fee of 5 sp per day.  Four guards keep watch on the place throughout the day and night and can be hired to ride with a coach for an additional 5 gp per guard per day.  The following chart shows travel time from Diamond Lake to other locations.  Journeys listed as “wild” involve at least one night in the wilderness, when the coach is a sitting duck for the numerous bandits who infest the hills and vex the garrison’s militia.


```
[b]Destination       Days     Direction     Wild?[/b]
Blackstone          1        East          No
Blackwall Keep      2      East, South    Yes
Elmshire            2        North        Yes
Free City           3        East          No
```


Parrin Residence

This is the residence of Luzane Parrian, who is one of the mine owners in Diamond Lake, which she inherited from her parents. When Balabar Smenk arrived in town years ago, he quickly started acquiring Parrian's assets and holdings.  Over the last few years she as watched as her closes friends, allies forged during her mother's time, fell into bankruptcy or were killed thanks to the machinations of Balabar Smenk, who at the same time continued to press her on the romantic front. Perrin once lived in the home now occupied by Balabar Smenk but was forced to relocate to this shabby manor about three years ago.


Greysmere Covenant

Three prominant representatives of the dwarven stronghold of Greysmere, many days to the south across the treacherous Mistmarsh, live in this sturdy brick and timber structure.  Greysmere imports some of the raw iron ore unearthed by local humans, as it bears a color prized by the most skilled artisans and metalworkers of the dwarven clans.  Dulok Blitzhame leads the delegation with straight talk and cunning pragmatism.  The other councilors, Galuth Grobadore and Bitris Ruthek spend much of their time representing the interests of Greysmere in neighboring communities.


Gansworth Residence
In the 14 years since he came to Diamond Lake, Chaum Gansworth has remained in the background, never drawing too much attention to himself while quietly amassing a fortune from three very productive mines. Gansworth lives in the heart of Diamond Lake, at the end of a cul-de-sac marked by a memorial obelisk dedicted to the memory of a mine collapse 70 years ago that killed more than 300 miners.  A low wall surrounds most of the two-story structure, and five loyal sentinels guard the compound at all times.


The Rusty Bucket
This popular restaurant used to specialize in fish, but since the lake went bad its' been forced to adapt to a land-based menu.  Within, green stained-glass windows filter eerie light into the main dining room, where the intertwining melodies of a trio of pipers enhances an ethereal atmosphere.  Guests dine in a large common room, with a handful of nicer tables situatied in a roped-off area beside the main dining hall.  The far table, on a raised platform overlooking the private room, is reserved for Chaum Gansworth, Diamond Lake's most calculating mine manager and the owner of the Rusty Bucket.  Gansworth rigorously pursues a neutral stance in all political dealings, afraid to expose himself to an enemy's treachery by making an overt move against one of the other mine managers.  As a result, all fo the town's major political plaerys consider the Rusty Bucket neutral.


Moonmeadow Residence

Unlike the other mine managers of Diamond Lake, Ellival Moonmeadow manages only one mine for the government of the Free City.  Moonmeadow owes his longevity to a keen intelligence and a reclusiveness that offers few chances to become embroiled in local affairs.  The only thing that brings him into the public eye is dragonchess, and even then he plays only with opponents capable of challenging his instinctive, complex style.  The blond, well-dressed elf rarely consorts with humans at all, preferring the company of six grey elves who also hail from his homeland, the distant realm of Celene.  Decades younger than their master, these elves mix more readily with the folk of Diamond Lake, occasionally visiting the Emporium's opium parlor, Lazare's House, or Venelle's. Moonmeadow's sprawling manor surrounds a central courtyard containing a meditation garden, an ostentation of peacocks, and two green-and-brown-pelted cooshees, mated elven dogs who have accompanied their master since his days in Celene.


Osgood Smithy

The distinctive "O" maker's mark of Manlin Osgood is a regional sign of quality powerful enough that lesse blacksmiths in neighboring communities often forge it to maintain competitive parity.  Osgood and his team of seven apprentices and journeyman smiths specialize in masterwork armor and household items like canteens, canisters, tools, and the like.  Osgood is somewhat coarse, unfailingly polite middle-aged human with a bald head and a walrus-like mustache.  He always remembers a customer's name, and greets frequent patrosn witha  hearty handshake and a slap on the back.


Smelting House

A century ago, local mine managers maintained their own smelting houses, but constant conflict resulted in frequent sabotage that choked the flow of resources from Diamond Lake to the Free City markets.  The city directors reluctantly stepped in, monopoloizing the smelting trade and basing the town's only smelting house in a massive fortress-worshop perched on the edge of the lake.  Runoff slag belched from the great sub-surface pipes accounts for the majoirty of the pollution that has killed off most aquatic life in the region, and production these days is more robust than it has ever been.  The rarely seen chief smelter, Vulgan Durtch, is one of the richest men in Diamond Lake, but few neighbors know anything about him.

A tower on the building's northwest corner serves as the residence and workshop of Benazel the Alchemist, a talkative chemist from the Free City who oversees the alchemical rituals and regents necessary for the smelting process and who makes a minor fortune selling potions from his first-floor office.


Diamond Lake Boneyard

The town's overcrowded cemetery used to be a great source of bodies for medical students in the Free City and unscrupulous necromancers, but the Cult of the Green Lady has put a stop to that.  Throughout the day, a handful of green-robed acolytes wander the cemetery chanting songs holy to Wee Jas while tending graves and clearing vines and mude from stone markers dating back hundreds of years.  Tales abound that one coffin in the boneyard -- no one is sure just which one -- contains not a dead body, but dozens and dozens of gold bars.


Neff Manor

Governor-Mayor Lanod Neff's sprawling manor house squats atop the hill overlooking Diamond Lake, a tangle of scaffolding, wires, and workcrews.  Protected by a wooden stockade wall, the manor houses the political apparatus of the town, including several meeting rooms, a courthouse, and numerous bedchambers for visiting dignitaries and (just as frequently) Lanod Neff's countelss cronies and concubines. Visitation with the governor-mayor is by appointment only, with an audiences sometimes taking weeks to arrange.


Dourstone Mine

This iron ore mine has kept strong for centuries, predating the formal establishment of Diamond Lake as a vassal of the Free City.  Ragnolin Dourstone has managed the mine since the very beginning, when he chose this spot seemingly at random.


Menhirs

This worn old stone ring is often visited by residents of the Bronzewood Lodge, and is sacred to druids and rangers, a relic from a time when teh laws of the wilderness governed man as well as animals.


Old Observatory

This crumbling abandoned observatory once housed an order of monks obsessed with the heavenly bodies of the nighttime sky.


Dourstone Residence

This squat, well-protected manor is the home of Ragnolin Dourstone, who is one of Diamond Lake's most responsible mine managers.


DIAMOND LAKE'S HINTERLANDS
Beyond the streets of Diamond Lake is a jagged expanse of wilderness. Wandering bands of militia patrol the region, keeping it mostly safe for the merchants, pilgrims, and travelers heading to and from the Free City. The following locations, while technically outside the town limits, play important roles in local affairs.


The Twilight Monastery

About two hours north of Diamond Lake, a towering crag called the Griffon’s Roost casts a dark shadow over the muddy road to Elmshire. From a perch hundreds of feet above looms the cat-infested Twilight Monastery, a three-towered monument to an obscure philosophy of the Distant West. Two score monks dwell within the monastery, dedicating themselves to a litany of exercises meant to perfect the body and spirit. The secretive monks hold dusk as the holiest of hours, and sonorous chants emit from the Twilight Monastery’s central courtyard when the night sky appears in the heavens.

Foremost among the monks is Izenfen the Occluded, a peerless masked combatant thought to be one of the wisest figures in the hills. Travelers frequently seek her council, but most leave Diamond Lake without ever having gained access to the Twilight Monastery, for Izenfen deigns to speak with only a handful of pilgrims foretold to her via the agency of the night sky and an immense mirrored lens called the Censer of Symmetry.

When word of the Censer’s predictive prowess spread to the miners of Diamond Lake 20 years ago, a desperate contingent petitioned Izenfen to predict the location of the richest unclaimed local ore deposits, appealing to her compassion with tales of starving children and dangerously unpaid debts. The masked mistress of the Twilight Monastery rebuffed their pleas, triggering the miners’ contingency plan—an ill-fated invasion of the monks’ compound that left seven miners dead.

Immediately thereafter, Izenfen gathered a cadre of stealth assassins from the ranks of her best warriors, and silently set them upon the surviving invaders who still milked wounds in the petty shacks along Diamond Lake’s waterfront.  Rumors suggest that Izenfen’s masked silent killers remain active to this day, citing the disappearance or mysterious deaths of nearly a dozen political enemies within the town.


The Bronzewood Lodge

The ring of crumbling menhirs on the bluff overlooking Diamond Lake is a remnant of an ancient human druidic culture that once inhabited the region. They too came to the hills for the ancient cairns, seeing them as monuments to great ancestors of the invisible past.  Although modern humans displaced the native druids during great migrations over a thousand years ago, pockets of indigenous architecture and culture remain. Foremost among these near-forgotten practices is veneration of Obad-Hai, the Shalm, the brooding patron of wilderness and natural order.

Druids and rangers who honor the Shalm and a host of minor nature deities and fey spirits (the so-called Old Faith) routinely congregate in great moots three hours northeast of Diamond Lake, at an ancient megalithic structure called the Bronzewood Lodge. Devotees of Ehlonna or the elven pantheon are welcome at these meetings, if a bit gruffly, but all other attendees must be invited personally by someone already within the circle of trust.

A small permanent community inhabits the Lodge itself and the wooded copse surrounding it. Perhaps 30 assorted druids, rangers, and scouts protect the sacred site and keep watch on the nearby roads and valleys.  Occasionally, they step in to rescue a traveler from some natural menace, but just as often they warn explorers to stay on the roads and let the wilderness take care of itself. Their leader is Nogwier, an aged proponent of the Old Faith who strives to keep the focus of his community on preservation of a near-extinct way of life and away from anger at the Free City and its operatives in Diamond Lake, whose avariciousness continually rapes the land.


The Cairn Hills

A few hundred years ago, intrepid explorers discovered a fantastic cache of priceless artifacts entombed in one of the hundreds of ancient burial complexes hewn into the crags surrounding the Free City. The trove attracted legions of treasure-seekers to the Free City (then a mere trading post), and unbelievable wealth plundered from the tombs. The wealthiest explorers became the city’s first nobility, and the Free City quickly became associated with easy wealth and fabulous archeological artifacts from long-dead civilizations that appeared to predate the emergence of gnomes and dwarves in the region.  But the wealth didn’t always come easy, as many of the forlorn tombs provided deadly surprises in the form of bound demon guardians, relentless constructs, and ingenious magical wards and traps.  The hilly lands surrounding the City became known as the Cairn Hills, and the hunt for lost treasure became an important part of the region’s cultural heritage.

But the treasure didn’t last forever. Eventually, the cairns dried out, and unplundered tombs became more and more difficult to locate. Every decade or so a lucky explorer managed to strike it rich, but even more came away from their endeavors with nothing more than broken ankles and clothes singed by the fires of ancient protections.  Several vanished entirely. Over the years, the Cairn Hills began to lose their allure, and the City fell upon difficult times.

Although abandoned cairns host no few bandit troupes and savage humanoid enclaves, two nonhuman communities play an important role in the Free City’s economy, so much so that they impact even the remote mining town of Diamond Lake. These are the gnome warren of Grossetgrottel and the dwarven stronghold of Greysmere.

Three days (by coach) northwest of Diamond Lake, the Cairn Hills Trail enters a region of steep crags pocked with natural caverns. Five of these caverns lead to an interconnected series of gnome villages called Grossetgrottel. The gnomes of Grossetgrottel specialize in rare gems rescued from the subterranean depths, but each of the five villages focuses on a different trade or specialization. All told, some 800 gnomes call the place home, though about a quarter as many “expatriates” live in the Free City itself or in the mining towns surrounding it. Able gnome wardens and gem-encrusted constructs stand vigil over the surface entrances to each community, and nongnome visitors are subject to the legendary gnome suspicion.

South of the immense Mistmarsh, the Cairn Hills jut up to become the Abbor-Alz Mountains, and in a tight valley stands the imposing dwarven fortress of Greysmere, its impressive stone-carved façade reflecting in the still waters of a placid mountain lake. Tall mountains completely surround the valley, making the citadel one of the most easily defended locales in the region. Unusually for the dwarves, Greysmere stands open to all visitors, who are welcome in the enclave’s upper markets and vast, agoraphobia-inducing galleries. More than 400 dwarves dwell within Greysmere, under the guidance of Fionor the Rude, a downright mean little fellow who invites all new guests to his dinner table in hopes that they might provide a moment’s entertainment.  Despite his boorishness, Fionor respects those who command respect, and is a trustworthy friend.


Cairn of the Green Lady

Far less welcoming are the brooding inhabitants of the Cairn of the Green Lady, a reclaimed tomb on the opposite shore of Diamond Lake itself. Cloaked in robes of green and quick to threaten outsiders, these two-score devotees of the death goddess Wee Jas honor a fallen saint of that deity with mournful prayers to departed spirits and mysterious explorations of the hills nearby. They base themselves in the tomb of this departed servant of the Dark-Eyed Lady, whom they believe died during a great migration of humans across the treacherous hills more than a thousand years ago. Diamond Lake’s Governor-Mayor Lanod Neff trusts the cultists only because they protect the town’s boneyard from the sinister attentions of the community’s most depraved residents. The order’s leader, the enchanting Amariss, is always on the lookout for new recruits.


DRAMATIS PERSONAE

AURIC (Human M): Braggart whoclaims to have won the Maiden's Belt from the Free City's gladitorial games. While the belt looksauthentic, none has found the resolve to truly question him on it. Perhaps this has to do with the spiked gauntlets and the huge arms that they cover.
ALLUSTAN (Human m): Wizard and "the smartest man in town"
CHEZABET (Human f): Emporium fortune teller
VELIAS CHILDRAMUN (Human m): Fatherly cleric of Hieroneous
DIETRIK CICAEDA (Human m): Chief Cartographer of Diamond Lake
SHERRIF CUBBIN (Human m): Corrupt Sheriff of Diamond Lake
RAGNOLIN DOURSTONE (Dwarf m): Mine manager
DANNATH (Human f): Lazare's daughter and hostess of his House
VALKUS DUN (Human m): High priest of Hieroneous
TYROL EBBERLY (Human m): Weapon dealer, owner of the "Captain's Blade"
CHAUM GANSWORTH (Human m): Mine manager
ARIELLO KLINT (Halfling m): "The Combustible Magician", entertainer at The Emporium
KURLAG (Half-ogre m): Bouncer at The Emporium
LAZARE (Human m): Proprietor of Lazare's House and dragonchess enthusiast
MELINDE (Human f): Charming young warrior priestess of Hieroneous
ELLIVAL MOONMEADOW (Elf m): Mine manager
GOVERNOR-MAYOR LANOD NEFF (Human m): Rules Diamond Lake for the Free City of Grehawk
NOGWIER (Human m): High cleric of the Bronzewood Lodge
LUZANE PARRIN (Human f): Mine manager
PURPLE PROSE (Elf f): Madame of The Midnight Salute
MERRIS SANDOVAR (Human m): Chief Scout of Militia
TOM SHINGLE (Boggle m): Emporium contortionist
BALABAR SMENK (Human m): Mine manager
SHAG SOLOMON (? m): "The Wild Gentleman", entertainer/freak in the Emporium
TIDWOAD (Gnome m): Gem monger and proprietor of Tidwoad's
GELCH TILGAST(Human m): Mine manager
TOLLIVER TRASK (Human m): Militia garrison's aging commander
DOBRUN TRENT (Half-elf m): Militia lieutenant
MIKKELA VENDERIN (Human f): Militia lieutenant
VENELLE (Half-elf f): Bowyer/fletcher for Diamond Lake
JIERIAN WIERUS (Human m): Flagellant high priest of St. Cuthbert
ZALAMANDRA (Human f): Queen of the Veiled Corridor
WILLIAM (Dwarf M): Lazare's Doorman and right hand to Dannath. While he allows any to enter if they mind their manners, there are few he considers truly worthy of spending time in Lazare's House.
KHELLEK: (Human M): One of Auric's companions and apparently the brain behind Auric's brawn and Tirra's brashness. A cynical man, he enjoys the game of Dragonchess and is said to be Lazare's equal at the game. Although Lazare merely smiles and waves away such claims, the fact that he has not met the stranger's challanges has given many a pause to ponder if it is true.
TIRRA (Elvish f): Flirtatious elvish woman fond of playing Rings at the Feral Dog. Using her skill, as well as her beauty, with her daggers, she has not lost a match since arriving in Diamond Lake three days ago.[/sblock]


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## Dichotomy (Sep 23, 2006)

Here's a link to the code you need.

Link to GitP's PbP guide.  Recall that about 1/4 down is the "Post Formatting" section.  I prefer the Prose format, but in the PRESENT tense.  Also, for OOC stuff, rather than using brackets, I prefer for it to be in a spoiler block.

Diamond Lake map (letter sized PDF) - DM copy
[sblock=Proposed New Class]Druids are broken.  Sorcs suck.  Here's a proposed fix.

*The Fey Caster*
*Hit Die:* d6
*BAB:* poor (as Wizard)
*Saves:* Good Fort, Ref, and Will
*Skill Points at 1st level:* (6+int modifier) x4
*Skill Points at each additional Level:* 6 + Int Modifier
*Class Skills: *  The fey caster's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

*Weapon and Armor Proficiency:* As druid.


```
[B]The Fey Caster           Hit Die: d6                                     
        Base                                                                             
        Attack    Fort   Ref    Will                                             
Level   Bonus     Save   Save   Save   Special                                    [/B]
1st     +0           +2     +2     +2     Animal companion, nature sense, wild empathy
2nd     +1           +3     +3     +3     Woodland stride
3rd     +1            +3     +3     +3     Trackless step
4th     +2           +4     +4     +4     Resist nature’s lure
5th     +2           +4     +4     +4     
6th     +3             +5     +5     +5     
7th     +3             +5     +5     +5     
8th     +4             +6     +6     +6     
9th     +4             +6     +6     +6    Venom immunity
10th    +5            +7     +7     +7     
11th    +5         +7     +7     +7     
12th    +6/+1         +8     +8     +8     
13th    +6/+1         +8     +8     +8     A thousand faces
14th    +7/+2         +9     +9     +9    
15th    +7/+2        +9     +9     +9     Timeless body
16th    +8/+3     +10    +10     +10     
17th    +8/+3     +10    +10     +10     
18th    +9/+4    +11    +11     +11     
19th    +9/+4     +11    +11     +11   
20th    +10/+5    +12    +12     +12
```
The listed special abilities are all as listed for the druid, except as noted below.

*Wildshape*
Does not exist.

*Spells*
A fey caster casts divine spells, which are drawn from the druid spell list.  He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).

To learn or cast a spell, a fey caster must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a fey caster's spell is 10 + the spell level + the fey caster's Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a fey caster can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is as given on Table: The CLERIC (in the SRD), EXCEPT that instead of having a domain spell slot, the fey caster's extra slot is reserved for _summon nature's ally_ spells (though the fey caster can still spontaneously cast such spells as a druid can). In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.

A fey caster's selection of spells is extremely limited. A fey caster knows spells as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known, EXCEPT the fey caster is treated for this purpose as one level higher than he actually is, and the fey caster automatically knows the [summon nature's ally[/i] chain of spells.  (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a fey caster knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the druid spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered fey caster level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a fey caster can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the fey caster "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level druid spell the fey caster can cast. A fey caster may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a fey caster need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast.[/sblock]

[sblock=Houserules][sblock=Hit Points]The intention was max at first level, then a "true average" thereafter.
d4: at even levels (level 2, level 4, etc.) get 2 hit points; at odd levels get 3
d6: even 3; odd 4
d8: even 4; odd 5
d10: even 5; odd 6
d12: even 6; odd 7[/sblock]
[sblock=Spellbooks]After great discussion, we decided to keep RAW.  To summarize what RAW are:
1) Either make a DC 20 + spell level spellcraft check or use read magic to decipher the spellbooks;
* Failure on this spellcraft check means you have to wait until the next day
2) Spend an entire day (for each spell) studying it, then make another spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level) to "understand" the spell;
* Failure on this spellcraft check means you can't "understand or copy" the spell; you can't try again until you get another rank in spellcraft
3) Spend an entire day (again) and use up 1 page per spell level (at a cost of 100 gp each page) actually writing the spell in his spellbook.
* This is the copying cost and does not include any "borrowing fee" or the like
More specifics in post 200 on OOC thread page 14.[/sblock]
[sblock=Crafting]You can create any wondrous item whose prerequisites you meet. Enchanting a wondrous item takes one casting of every required spell for every 1,000 gp in its price, and a minimum of one day. To enchant a wondrous item, you must spend 1/25 of the item’s price in XP and use up raw materials costing half of this price.[/sblock]
[sblock=Death and XP]Use RAW







> Any creature brought back to life usually loses one level of experience. The character’s new XP total is midway between the minimum needed for his or her new (reduced) level and the minimum needed for the next one. If the character was 1st level at the time of death, he or she loses 2 points of Constitution instead of losing a level.



unless the character was more than halfway to reaching the next level.  In that case, the character's new XP total is set at that same fraction of the way between the minimum needed for his or her new (reduced) level and the minimum needed for the next one.[/sblock][/sblock]


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## Dichotomy (Sep 23, 2006)

[sblock=Encounters defeated]3 grimlocks
Grimlock Kennel Master & 2 krenshars
2 grimlock archers
2 chokers
Grimlock barbarian
3 grimlocks
2 grimlocks
6 grimlocks
Grimlock chieftain
3 grimlocks
Grimlock cleric
4 acolytes of vecna
Allip
The Faceless One
(Slightly toned down) Ebon Aspect [sans Erdolliel]
Group of crappy NPCs [sans Erdolliel]
Erdolliel's magical mysterious journey through death
4 Bandits
4 Lizardfolk
A whole bunch of encounters that happened during our live session
Giant crocodile
3 spawn of kyuss
3 bandits
Scaring away 8 commoners and 1 cleric
3 Displacer Beasts
6 worgs
Dire wolverine
2 trolls
2 rogues
Chimera
Merchant and incited crowd
Martal & Regim
3 Mimics
Wide mouth spiked pit trap
2 Invisible Stalkers
Giant Octopus (yes, I'm giving you the XP for it)
Illusory Spiked Pit Trap
6 Doppelgangers
2 (more) Doppelgangers
Erdolliel Doppelganger
3 Doppelgangers w/ fighter levels
Greater Doppelganger
2 Wide Spiked Pit Trap
2 Poisoned Ceiling Spear Trap
2 Drow Fighter
4 Shriekers
Yellow Mold
3 Drow Fighters
5 Drow Fighters
Drow Cleric
Glyph of Warding
3 Octopins
Advanced Octopin
Octopin [sans Nethezar]
Mind Flayer Sorcerer [sans Nethezar]
Stone Brain Dominate Trap [I'm given Nethezar XP for it since his _protection from evil_ spells constitute a good contribution to your surviving it]
4 Human Zombies [sans Nethezar]
Spirit Naga [sans Nethezar][/sblock]
[sblock=XP]Previously:
Erdolliel: 34,199
Nethezar: 31,145
Kushnak: 33,789

My current tally:
Erdolliel: 43,999
Nethezar: 32,000  (FYI it gave Neth more XP to award him XP before deducting for his death)
Kushnak: 43,589[/sblock]


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## michael_noah (Sep 25, 2006)

For ease of remembering, etc.

Boldak is dead.

This was his color.


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## o3caudata (Sep 25, 2006)

alexis is our party's human cleric.

Her color is: (this one)

i can't resist it... medium turquoise is just too awesome...that one's nice too... but pretty close to the dwarven rogue... and who want's to get that close to a dwarf anyway....wait, i already used that one... and it's my favorite so far... well i like the puke green too...ok i can.... is deep sky blue something like deep space ninei don't know if i can resist this onethis is pretty damn ugly.... what the hell is medium turquoise?this must be my color  This is also my colorThis is my color?is this too darkwheat beer tastes good


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## Dichotomy (Sep 25, 2006)

Wow.


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## o3caudata (Sep 25, 2006)

It makes more sense if you read it in reverse, by color.


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## Dichotomy (Sep 26, 2006)

Edited the 2nd post to add map of Diamond Lake.


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## TiCaudata (Sep 27, 2006)

Nav Baxtalo is a Human Sorcerer.

He still has this color


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## Dichotomy (Sep 28, 2006)

Well, I considered options for doing things to the map I posted to make you able to see the key.  When I tried to make the image larger, the hosting site got angry.  Here's another option:  go here and download the "Diamond Lake map (letter sized PDF) - DM copy" at the bottom of the page.  The only reason it is the "DM copy" is because it has the key.  However, I don't see any problem with you guys having the key.  Even for those characters that don't actually know the town well enough, they could get directions to any of those places by asking.


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## Dichotomy (Sep 29, 2006)

I think we are very near ready to begin.  Just a few notes.

I make extensive use of spoiler blocks.  If a spoiler block is not addressed to you, please don't read it.  Most spolier blocks will simply be for out-of-character information and will be labeled as such.  But if it is labeled for a specific individual, I'd appreciate if other people don't read it.

o3, do you know if Wes has actually gotten himself a handle here?  Get on him about it, and please make sure he checks this thread.

[sblock=michael_noah]I may have sent you mixed messages.  Could you type up what you have for background and send it to me?  I know we've talked about it quite a bit, but I'd like to have some kind of record to reference in one document.  Nothing noveleqsue is needed.  Just something to make sure we are on the same page.  If you have anything else you'd like to talk about, of course I'm willing to do so.[/sblock]

Can all of you make sure to complete your character sheets and share them with me?  Send me an email or post here once the sheet is actually finalized.  I don't plan on moving ahead until I know all your "crunchy stuff" is done.

The next phase will be getting the ball rolling on getting you all together and such.  That should not take long, provided that you guys have done the rest of what I've asked.

If I've missed anything, or you have any questions, let me know.


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## worthley (Sep 29, 2006)

Trenton is the party fighter and this is his color

This is my handle.  I'll finish up my sheet asap.


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## michael_noah (Sep 29, 2006)

Our fighter's color is purple.  Great.


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## Dichotomy (Sep 29, 2006)

it is magenta.  Get it straight.


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## TiCaudata (Sep 29, 2006)

At least he isn't a ranger...


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## o3caudata (Sep 29, 2006)

Cheerleader
So and So
Whats her face
The UGLY one


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## Dichotomy (Sep 29, 2006)

Hee hee...


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## michael_noah (Sep 30, 2006)

Alright.  I know I gave kurt my stuff.

WES!


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## Dichotomy (Sep 30, 2006)

michael_noah said:
			
		

> Alright.  I know I gave kurt my stuff.
> 
> WES!



Now, now.  No need to be jumping to conclusions.  As I noted before:







			
				Dichotomy said:
			
		

> Can all of you make sure to complete your character sheets and share them with me? Send me an email or post here once the sheet is actually finalized. I don't plan on moving ahead until I know all your "crunchy stuff" is done.



  To the best of my knowledge, none of you have done that yet...


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## o3caudata (Oct 1, 2006)

my sheet is good.


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## TiCaudata (Oct 1, 2006)

ready to go


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## Dichotomy (Oct 2, 2006)

[sblock=Shea]I've been reading the email and IMs we've exchanged.  I've got some thoughts to run by you.  My intention is not to force anything on you, but rather to see if these ideas will work.

So, it is very likely that you've spent at least some time at the church of St. Cuthbert in town.  Here's a bit more stuff that you'd have learned about the place:[sblock]Each of the establishments along the Vein's central square trade in the exploitation of human vice or false hope, and the tower-flanked Church of St. Cuthbert is certainly no exception. Within this austere stucco structure, the poorest of Diamond Lake's poor huddle in a torch-lit sanctuary listening to the fiery sermons of Jierian Wierus, a bombastic orator whose populist rants appeal to the best virtues and values of the common man while at the same time preying upon their fears and superstitions. Wierus endlessly preaches a creed of common sense, honesty, and self-sacrifice, encouraging his faithful to give penance to St. Cuthbert by whipping themselves in repetitive acts of self-mortification. His growing cult, now some 150 strong, gives succor to the dregs of Diamond Lake society and is seen as a menace by the town's mine managers, government, and other religious figures. Many claim that the flagellants seem to follow Wierus as much as they do St. Cuthbert, and it is only because the charismatic firebrand somehow keeps his followers from breaking the law that his sect has been allowed to thrive.[/sblock]While I'm not an expert on Alexis, I have a guess that she really wouldn't like this scene much.  First, while it is certainly a church of St. Cuthbert, the practices probably seem out of wack, both with what Alexis had falsely-learned from Edrick, but also with what she has learned since.  So, I'd guess that while she may have tried working there (or just hung out learning or whatnot), she has decided that it (along with mining and probably whoring) is another thing on her list of jobs that she doesn't want.

How do you think you'd respond to a human of middling height, shock white hair, silver eyes, and pale complexion that started talking to you in the square basically in an attempt to sweet talk you out of some coin?[/sblock]


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## Dichotomy (Oct 2, 2006)

[sblock=MNW]Boldak has caught word of the adventuring trio that recently came to town.  The leader of the group is Auric and was apparently a champion at the area in the Free City.  With him is Tirra (an attractive female elf whom you've seen best every challenger in the dagger tossing contest at the Feral Dog) and Khellek (an older human that frankly looks like a mage and has been seen spending time in Lazere's House.

Townsfolk have been speculating on why they are here.  They've been asking questions about the Stirgenest Cairn, one of the many ancient burial sites that are scattered about the Cairn Hills where Diamond Lake is located. Everyone in town, though, knows that there is nothing there of interest. The town’s youth constantly explore the ancient site, and have always found it completely empty of marvel and harmless to say the least.

But that isn’t the only site at which the youth of the town have played. It wasn’t common knowledge, but those children who had recently grown up in Diamond Lake knew of another cairn outside of the town. The cairn is near an old iron mine that went dry about fifty years ago, and was abandoned a few years later when the manager mysteriously died. About a decade ago, several children found the nearby cairn while camping out by the mine. Since then, the town’s youth have dared each other to venture into the cyclopean entrance to prove their bravery. Most found the place too scary, for when the wind was just right, haunting and almost magical tones would emanate from the depths of the forgotten tomb. Those who have been to the tomb have called it the Whispering Cairn.

Visits to the Whispering Cairn became less frequent about six years ago when a girl mysteriously vanished while sleeping in the cairn. Now children still dare to go to the entrance of the tomb, but none enter. The secrets of the cairn have since remained undiscovered.

It stands to reason that if famed adventurers from the Free City have bothered to come to the inconsequential town of Diamond Lake, they must be in search of some hidden treasure. Right now they’re asking about the wrong place, but it would only be a matter of time before they learn of the Whispering Cairn.[/sblock]


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## michael_noah (Oct 2, 2006)

[sblock=dichotomy]After witnessing the newcomer win yet another throwing contest, Boldak finished his ale with thoughts about possible adventure.  _Whatever happened to that girl that disappeared in the Whispering Cairn anyway.  All the other children seem to believe there's something extravegant down there, but it seems just as likely that she fell and broke her neck.

On the other hand, adventurers might find more than what years of exploring could.  My own stay in the mine didn't include any experience more than 20 feet inside the entrance, though I'd never admit that to the boys too afraid to enter themselves...

In any case, I'd wage that they have more exciting news than the regular crowd here._

Boldak waited for the congratulations to fade, and for the young elf to return to her table before approaching the adventurers.

Puffing himself up, he gruffly started, "Hello there.  That's a fine wrist you have.  I wondered if you all might be interested in some information about the cairns about town.  All I'd ask in return is some news from somewhere apart from this hellhole."[/sblock]


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## Dichotomy (Oct 3, 2006)

IC thread is up.

I still have a few things to work out, so don't start posting there until I give you each the go-ahead (it will be sooner for some of you than for others).

As a note, some OOC information will necessary need to happen in the IC thread.  Please keep OOC info in spoiler blocks.  Extensive OOC info should be posted in this thread.  Don't worry too much.  You'll get the hang of it.


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## Dichotomy (Oct 3, 2006)

[sblock=Shea & Roach]If you guys can quickly get me up to speed on where you are, we can shortly get this moved into the IC thread.  After talking with you all and thinking it over, I'm not worried that I need to get you all together before we take off.  There are already some interesting things that might happen for you all before you all meet.[/sblock]
[sblock=MNW]We are gonna move right to the IC thread.  If you feel like it, repost there what you posted here.  Keep the spoiler block, of course.  I'll have a response for you soon.  Just want to see where the others are.[/sblock]
[sblock=Wes]I'll have something in the IC thread for you shortly (which means probably tonight, but maybe not until tomorrow).  I need to make sure the others are sorted out.[/sblock]


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## Dichotomy (Oct 3, 2006)

[sblock=Wes]You can head on over to the IC thread.  I've got a spoiler-blocked start for you.  Make sure to reply in spoiler-blocks.[/sblock]


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## michael_noah (Oct 5, 2006)

Dichotomy has informed me that we should all include a physical description, etc. in our first post on the IC boards.


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## michael_noah (Oct 5, 2006)

Also, I don't know about you guys, but after trying the past tense thing in my posts, i really really like it.  I think it makes the game read about 17 times better.  I'd love it if we could all try it out.


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## Dichotomy (Oct 5, 2006)

You really think so?  Hmmmm...  Any of the rest of you have thoughts?


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## TiCaudata (Oct 5, 2006)

The first time I read his post my head converted it into present tense.  It wasn't until I consciously re-read it that I noticed the proper tense, and even then my head was trying hard to switch the words.

So...I'll probably not really notice it if the rest of you do it, but I think it would take extreme effort for me to do the same.   I'm not entirely convinced...but I could try


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## o3caudata (Oct 6, 2006)

I'd rather do the present thing, but in all honesty i'll probably wander back and forth regardless of what's decided.  I didn't have any trouble reading any of the posts yet... once i got past the fact that there weren't two elvish women... but that's just me being silly.  So if it was my call, i'd say do whatever but i'll do whatever kurt calls.


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## michael_noah (Oct 6, 2006)

I'm sad.


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## michael_noah (Oct 6, 2006)

I guess... whatever.  

Can we at least use complete sentences and not have unnecessary tense shifts?


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## Dichotomy (Oct 6, 2006)

o3caudata said:
			
		

> [sblock=Dichotomy]Not sure on the protocol/etiquite of this, is it appropriate for me to ask you questions this way?  Have I seen the elf lady earlier?  Obviously i've not been here long, but i've certainly been to my fair share of taverns, and if she stands out....
> 
> if so, tell me what i would have seen or heard.  is she showy, loud, overly kind with coin? have i had any inkling about this cairns things, other than to know there are lots of ones, back in the day, which used to have uncountable treasures... etc etc.  if not, no worries, just thought i'd check.  Small background details can matter you know.
> 
> oh. and sorry if it's not appropriate to ask questions this way, just let me know which way i should.  i don't believe i can PM.[/sblock]



[sblock=Shea]I think the OOC thread is appropriate for this.

Since you've been at the Feral Dog a few times (I think you told me that), you've probably seen this woman playing the game before.  From what you've seen, she's not rowdy or loud.  She is perhaps slightly showy, but only in a general slight inclination way.  You don't really know anything about the cairns, except that there apparently are some.

Is that good?[/sblock]


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## TiCaudata (Oct 7, 2006)

Did one of us discover some sort of secret telepathy?   

Asking for grammar out of a B.S. degree is asking a heck of alot...


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## TiCaudata (Oct 7, 2006)

Yeah I've formally decided past tense blows...  I didn't realize until right now that the the elf lady was named Tirra and that the employee isn't named Tirra.

present tense for me


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## michael_noah (Oct 7, 2006)

Have you ever read a book?


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## TiCaudata (Oct 7, 2006)

Like This?

It just doesn't do it for me.

For 1) I'm not writing this adventure I'm living it
For 2) I generally prefer books that are in the 1st person narrative style, which is almost never in past tense.
For 3) Even though we are doing it a 3rd person style we should be doing it in limited and not omniscent, therefore no big thought bubbles
For 4) Switching between past tense descriptive and present tense talking is slightly annoying unless really well written.  I have yet to read something really well written in the past tense on this board even though it may include full (if slightly long and cumbersome) sentences and proper grammar.

Ya know if any of the rest of you want to weigh in on this feel free...  I'd even open that invite to pontential observers, although Dichotomy might overrule that.


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## michael_noah (Oct 7, 2006)

Hrm.

1) Everyone else is reading it.
2) Isn't it?  First example in Wikipedia is Dostoevsky's _Notes from Underground_, large portions of which are in the past.  That's just the first.  The others listed are the same.  E.g.



			
				do-man said:
			
		

> When petitioners used to come for information to the table at which I sat, I used to grind my teeth at them, and felt intense enjoyment when I succeeded in making anybody unhappy. I almost did succeed. For the most part they were all timid people -- of course, they were petitioners. But of the uppish ones there was one officer in particular I could not endure. He simply would not be humble, and clanked his sword in a disgusting way. I carried on a feud with him for eighteen months over that sword. At last I got the better of him. He left off clanking it. That happened in my youth, though.






			
				huck finn said:
			
		

> Well, when Tom and me got to the edge of the hilltop we looked away down into the village and could see three or four lights twinkling, where there was sick folks, maybe; and the stars over us was sparkling ever so fine; and down by the village was the river, a whole mile broad, and awful still and grand.  We went down the hill and found Jo Harper and Ben Rogers, and two or three more of the boys, hid in the old tanyard.  So we unhitched a skiff and pulled down the river two mile and a half, to the big scar on the hillside, and went ashore.




Etc.

3) Thought bubbles are generally accepted practice in all the play-by-post games I've seen.  I believe that they're necessary to really role-play anything in this form.

4) I'm not claiming to be some great author, but I just have to disagree with your assessment.  Just about every other book I've ever read contains present tense quotes inside a past tense narrative.  If that annoys you, I wonder how you've made it through, say, TWoT, which I think we can all agree is not that well written.


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## TiCaudata (Oct 7, 2006)

I'll concede #2, but I don't think past tense is worth it here.

Now if anyone else would post in either thread...that would be swell.


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## o3caudata (Oct 7, 2006)

all in all, i don't get why it's an issue.  i didn't know pbp was so focused on the way posts were written, or the tense and structure of the writing.  i like to roleplay and if i have to stretch my writing habits to be able to do it, even in a seriously modified form, i'll do it.  if someone, kurt or mike, would be willing to help me correct whatever mistakes i make in posting, i'd appreciate it.  i'll verify my grammar as best i can with word and my brain, but inevitably there will still be mistakes.  

i think kurt wanted present tense, and that's what i'll use until he says otherwise.

i think thought bubbles are an incredibly blatant form of metagaming, if kurt agrees that they are fine, cool.  but it's AMAZINGLY blatant metagaming.  _i sure hope no one mentions the secret location of that treasure horde_  i understand the absurdity of this and there's a line in there somewhere i just don't know where.


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## Dichotomy (Oct 7, 2006)

So, I was asked if I was going to step in and stop the argument.  I had refrained from doing so because I'd thought that the issue had been decided.  The reason is because when I'd said this:







			
				Dichotomy said:
			
		

> Link to GitP's PbP guide.  Recall that about halfway down is the "Post Formatting" section.  I prefer the Prose format, but in the FIRST person.  Also, for OOC stuff, rather than using brackets, I prefer for it to be in a spoiler block.



I am pretty sure that rather than say "FIRST person" I'd intended to say "PRESENT tense."  I am convinced that I must have been drunk [edit: because I thought that I had said "PRESENT tense].

In any event, I think we all recall that in our email discussions I'd noted a preference for present tense.  When MNW complained, I decided to see if the rest of you wanted to change, since I'd have been willing to try it if you all wanted.  The response (from those that decided to respond) was overwhelmingly opposed.

Does anything else need to be said on the matter?


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## michael_noah (Oct 8, 2006)

I had no idea that you meant you prefered present tense.  I was in fact attempting to follow the guide and thought that the past tense idea was a good one.  If you want present tense, I guess I'll do it...

Because I like arguing, I would like to point out that what you actually said in the email was "Oh, yeah, I'd forgotten about that.  I'm not particularly partial to past tense, but it would make it more novelesque" (note the ease of quoting a statement that occured in the past).  I took that to mean that you did not really have a preference, but that it was an interesting idea.

Anywho.  I'd like to know what Boldak might know about this Nav guy, since it seems like he might be from around Diamond Lake from the way he's talking.  I'll accept an answer from Ti or Dichotomy.


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## michael_noah (Oct 8, 2006)

For those of you that don't like thoughts to be expressed in the posts - I've put it in an sblock so that you needn't read it.  Let me know if that's acceptable.


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## TiCaudata (Oct 8, 2006)

That works fine by me, it's actually a pretty good idea as a thought journal.  I'm assuming we'll be backing these pages up pretty often (this time), but are we going to do any sort of quick summary of the adventure to date like was attempted with paper games in the past?  It might be a good way to summarize what's going on?

Of course there's no need for it this early in the adventure, I'm just planning ahead here.


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## Dichotomy (Oct 8, 2006)

We can see.  If you guys are interested, we might as well.

The sblocking of thought bubbles sounds fine, too.


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## worthley (Oct 8, 2006)

Reading is for suckers


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## michael_noah (Oct 8, 2006)

We're probably best to do a summary whenever it is that we start a new thread.  I don't know what ENWorld's policy is on it, but we'll probably want to when it gets to 10 pages or something like that, just so board performance, etc. doesn't get out of hand.


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## o3caudata (Oct 9, 2006)

i like the idea of summary's after each new thread and i agree with michael's assessment that 10 pages is a good mark.

are you making regular back-ups dichotomy?  would you like us to?

so thought bubbles are sblocked.  are they sblocked so dichotomy can read them, or so people don't have to read them if they don't want to?  i guess i'm confused.  if it's acceptable to use the thought bubbles to metagame, let's just use them.  if they're simply to tell dichotomy our characters thoughts, that's cool but i didn't understand that was the original intent.  i'm not at all against them, i just didn't get how they fit into the game.


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## Dichotomy (Oct 11, 2006)

At this point, you guys can feel free to either keep talking, or you can just summarize anything else that you do for the night and your prep for the morning.  If you have other stuff you want to do, feel free to include that.  Whichever you guys prefer, since I've no imminent need for you to stop roleplaying your characters.

As for backing up the thread, would one of you with more hard drive space than me be willing to do that?


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## TiCaudata (Oct 11, 2006)

I guess we'll have to define "more hard drive space" I have 8 gigs right now and am working on more...

I also have been backing up the pages as we fill them.  Yep, that means a grand total of once so far.


Edit:  Oh!Oh! Twice!


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## Dichotomy (Oct 11, 2006)

Well, my total space varies as I try to lighten the load.  Right now I have about 2 gigs.


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## o3caudata (Oct 11, 2006)

Dichotomy:  What's your position on thought bubbles?  I am confused about how they fit into the game and would like some help understanding.


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## Dichotomy (Oct 11, 2006)

My position on thought bubbles has previously been that they are very useful for character development.  However, I certainly understand how they could be used for metagaming type things.  I'd not previously thought of that as an issue.

I still think they are useful for characterization.  I guess the bottom line is that if people want to post them in sblocks, that's cool.  I think it helps us all to have them.  But don't feel a need to make them.

Any other thoughts?


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## TiCaudata (Oct 11, 2006)

Dichotomy said:
			
		

> I think it helps us all to have them.  But don't feel a need to make them.
> 
> Any other thoughts?




I think I get what you are saying, but that there are too many objective personal pronouns there.  If I'm following you correctly, 'them' means something different in each sentence.  If I'm not I might still be following you, but I'll just ignore the second sentence.

Either way, if we use thoughts, I think they should be in sblocks and that the blocks should be treated like any other.  Namely that the person they are addressed to (in 'thought' cases this should be the person posting) and Dichotomy should be the only people reading the blocked text.  I'm with O3 in that I just don't see a reason why the thoughts are in any way relevant for all of us to read.


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## Dichotomy (Oct 11, 2006)

Sorry for the grammatical error.  Indeed I did confuse you, because both "them"s were referring to thought bubbles (not sblocks).


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## michael_noah (Oct 11, 2006)

Hmm.  Two thoughts.  Posting thought bubbles is not metagaming.  Metagaming is using outside (or personal) knowledge that the character does not have in-game.  Thought bubbles don't cause metagaming, they just provide extra opportunities for it.

I think the risk that someone might use knowledge of my character's thoughts for metagaming is worth it considering the gain that can be had from everyone, not just the DM, getting an insight into what my character is really like.  

We have a hard enough time roleplaying a "character" in person, what with all of us being repressed, minnesotan, non-actors.  Doing so in written form is doubly hard.  Thought bubbles help.


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## Dichotomy (Oct 11, 2006)

After some chats between various people, I've decided to lay out the issues as I see them.  I know, you guys probably hate it when I do that.  But, you should know by now, that is just my MO.

I agree with MNW's general appreciation of thought bubbles.  There are two "levels" of thought bubbles, which I've decided to call "private" (DM only) and "public" (for all of us) bubbles.

I think there is no contention about the value that private bubbles can have.  They convey to the DM what your character is thinking, what s/he might do, etc.  They also help the player get some "self" understanding, as having to put such things in writing generally requires more rigorous thought about them, etc.  Private bubbles also have drawbacks.  Posting takes more time.  They might be redundant or otherwise just unnecessary.

*Conclusion:* Make private bubbles anytime you personally think it would help either you or me for any of the reasons above.  It is NOT necessary for you to use them, but do so as you wish with the above thoughts in mind.

I think there was/is some different understandings about the value that public bubbles can have.  The opinion on one side is that characterization is something between the DM and the specific player.  And this makes some sense.  Any desire for that is adequately covered by private bubbles.

However, there is also a notion that characterization also occurs between the members of the group.  The PCs will eventually get to know each other, and, therefore, the players need to get a sense of the characterization of the other PCs.  Now, it is obvious that this predominantly happens in the form of dialog and actions that the PCs have when together.  The drawback that MNW points out, which I think is valid, is that in this particular format (the general bashing of us as repressed, Minnesotan, non-actors aside) there are cues, both verbal and nonverbal, they people normally rely upon, both consciously and subconsciously, to which we simply don't have the greatest access.

There are solutions to this problem.  One thing that I'd greatly recommend, regardless of any decision on public bubbles, is explicitly thinking about those cues that are normally present in live conversation and adding them in.  Use adjectives and adverbs more to describe the way your PCs are appearing and behaving.  Think about how much in normal life we can tell from the cues and just tell us that we can see it.  We know when someone is mad not because we can read their thoughts, but because of the cues we observe, and we are generally quite good at picking those things up.  So, to some extent, we can mitigate the lack of cues that implicitly occur when gaming around a table by explicitly adding them to our posts.  In fact, I bet that we can even do a better job if we try hard.

There are, however, still group characterization benefits that would be even better realized by having public bubbles.  I think that if you buy into the idea of this group characterization, you know that public bubbles could go even further for those goals than explicit cues.  But there is a "price" for that extra amount.  That price is the extra opportunity for metagaming.  There are two viable responses to this problem (that I can see): 1) We have a hard rule of no public bubbles, and rely wholly upon the explicit cues mentioned above to get that group characterization; 2) We have a soft rule of public bubbles are okay as long as there isn't metagaming.

This is, clearly, a balancing analysis, and I've given it a lot of thought.  Here is what I think.  If we are forced to rely on explicit cues, we will probably become better at using them, and better at roleplaying.  If we have the aforementioned soft rule of public bubbles, at some point there will be problems caused by it.  I don't think I need to conjure any examples, as I'm sure we can envision how such might occur.  If we have no public bubbles, we WILL lose some amount of group characterization, at least for awhile as we get used to using cues.  But we will still be able to have private bubbles with individual characterization.  With those to inform the DM and yourselves about who your character is inside his/her head, we'll all get better at turning those things outward as cues.

*Conclusion:* No public thought bubbles.  Let's all try to use cues, adverbs, adjectives, and the like as much as we can.

Any other thoughts on this, or did my stunning analysis (largely stolen/copied from chats) convince you?


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## Dichotomy (Oct 12, 2006)

On another note, I just realized that I made an error.  The Whispering Cairn is NOT 10 minutes from Diamond Lake.  The Cairn is about 10 minutes from the abandoned mine office, of which Nav spoke.  That office is about an hour from Diamond Lake.  Not sure how I made that mistake.

Hmmm... wine...


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## michael_noah (Oct 17, 2006)

For all: It's completely unnecessary to wait for your order in initiative to post your action.  You can always place some instructions for the DM in OOC blocks if you're not sure what will happen.  If you're lucky like me, people after you will even be really slow and you can adjust things as others post.  Hint. 

[sblock=everyone]Hint.[/sblock]


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## Dichotomy (Oct 18, 2006)

I just wanted to make a general note about editing posts.  I just happened to notice that Wes edited about 7 hours after making his last post.

In general, you should just avoid it like the plague, at least for IC stuff.  It probably didn't change anything in this specific instance, however, it can potentially be bad if other people post actions based upon something that someone else did.  Don't worry about editing stuff right after you post (like within a couple minutes).  I know I do that quite a bit.  But once people have probably read the post, you should avoid editing.  If you really need to, make a new post.


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## michael_noah (Oct 19, 2006)

FYI - Dichotomy.  It's impossible to move through a corner, including a doorway - so Boldak and Alexis should each be 5' closer to the doorway(I think).


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## Dichotomy (Oct 19, 2006)

Ah, yup... you are correct.


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## michael_noah (Oct 19, 2006)

You know... in case that matters.  :\


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## Dichotomy (Oct 19, 2006)

Speaking of other things that I just missed, Nav wanted to go to the NW corner, but I put him in the NE.  I'm gonna suggest that we just leave my mistake as it it, since, most likely, if Nav had been in the NW corner, he'd be dead (since the swarm would have been able to get both Nav and Trenton).  Does that work?


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## o3caudata (Oct 19, 2006)

I agree.

And oddly related, a bit of info worthley added when he edited it was 'to the west' in his spoiler block.  I told him immediately after he posted that his directions were vague and he apparently didn't expound until 6 hours later but....

Had he left his post as it was and 
had you decide not to ask him what he meant and
had you decided he wanted to move as any character with an 8 intelligence would, such that the swarm could only attack one of them, we'd be where we are now....   

and that's the sensible thing, even if worthley can't read.... reading is for suckers after all...  maybe his character is a barbarian, and he's taking it literally that he can't read...  that's gonna make the game REALLY hard...   

So your mistake was actually just a 'correction'.  Thanks.


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## michael_noah (Oct 19, 2006)

Dichotomy - Just to be clear, are you changing the rules for oil? 



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> *Oil*
> A pint of oil burns for 6 hours in a lantern. You can use a flask of oil as a splash weapon. Use the rules for alchemist’s fire, except that it takes a full round action to prepare a flask with a fuse. Once it is thrown, there is a 50% chance of the flask igniting successfully.
> 
> You can pour a pint of oil on the ground to cover an area 5 feet square, provided that the surface is smooth. If lit, the oil burns for 2 rounds and deals 1d3 points of fire damage to each creature in the area.



I was going to complain, but I think that a 100% chance of 1d4 damage (lantern) might actually be better than a 50% chance of 1d6x2 damage.  I'll still do it either way.


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## Dichotomy (Oct 20, 2006)

huh... it wasn't my intent to change the rule.  I just never realized it.  I figured that since the only place in the entire rules where it talks about using a lantern as a weapon is in the swarm section of the MM, that there was probably nothing about lighting oil.  Go figure...

Let's stick with the rules then.  Glad I mentioned it ahead of time.


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## Dichotomy (Oct 20, 2006)

After having a discussion with a couple of you, I noticed that the books/SRD totally suck.  If one ACTUALLY wants to know everything about swarms, you MUST look in the glossary.  The only thing that I've missed is that you've actually done 1 whole hp more damage to the swarm.  I'm editing the combat part of my last post appropriately.


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## michael_noah (Oct 30, 2006)

Dichotomy, can you give us quick rulings on these:

What sort of action is it to pour oil in a 5' square? 
Can you do it in an adjacent square or only the square you occupy?
What sort of action is it to light oil poured in a 5' square with a torch?  
With a tindertwig?  
Is it possible to do it by flinging a torch onto the square?

I don't think there are any rules on any of this - since the oil description is the only place that seems to cover it.  (although tindertwigs say, "Lighting a torch with a tindertwig is a standard action (rather than a full-round action), and lighting any other fire with one is *at least a standard action*."  So... anything you say is fine.


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## Dichotomy (Oct 30, 2006)

I'll get back to you.  I don't have time over lunch to look at it.


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## michael_noah (Oct 31, 2006)

Also, did we ever decide what happens (the resulting init. order) when one readies an action for which the trigger doesn't obtain until half-way through another's action?

This might make me want to pour the oil in not-my-own square, depending on the answer.


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## Dichotomy (Oct 31, 2006)

Pouring oil--full round action, I think
Square you occupy or adjacent squares
Standard action either way of lighting, I think (assuming the torch is already lit, but the tindertwig wasn't)
Flinging the torch might work.  Would have to hit appropriate touch AC, and I think I'd treat it as an improvised weapon (-4 to hit)
I THINK you initiative moves to right before the actor that triggered your action in subsequent rounds

Does that work for everyone?


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## TiCaudata (Nov 3, 2006)

works for me


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## Dichotomy (Nov 4, 2006)

All of Nav's stuff is present.  The spider swarm managed to keep anything that would have ate anything away.

Also, I'm I correct in thinking that currently no one in the party actually has been to the Whispering Cairn before (since Nav is dead)?


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## michael_noah (Nov 5, 2006)

As I mentioned, Boldak was there as a child - but only for a very short time, and he did not venture more than 30' or so inside.


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## Dichotomy (Nov 5, 2006)

Yeah.  I was just talking to Ti.  I'd gotten Nav and Boldak's situations mixed up.  It was Nav that knew about the office and Boldak that knew about the mine.  So that's all good.

Unfortunately, I neglected to bring the adventure with me this weekend.  I'll get a post up moving you to the cairn tomorrow afternoon/evening.


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## TiCaudata (Nov 6, 2006)

This is pretty much just a post for me to justify saving the last page.  Can I still assist with searching if I have no ranks?


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## TiCaudata (Nov 8, 2006)

How high are the ceilings in the cave here?


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## Dichotomy (Nov 8, 2006)

Unless I note otherwise, they are 20 feet high and ceilings are smooth stone.


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## michael_noah (Nov 10, 2006)

some cone shapes.  you can get all of the possible ones by mirroring these so the start at  different corners of R's square.


```
10' foot cones:
  | | | | |
  ---------
  | |R| | |
  ---------
  | | |x|x|
  ---------
  | | |x| |

  | | | | |
  ---------
  | |R| | |
  ---------
  | |x| | |
  ---------
  | |x|x| |

15 foot cones (the ones that matter i'd guess):

 | | | |x| | |
 -------------
 | | | |x|x| |
 -------------
 | | | |x|x|x|
 -------------
 | | |R| | | |
 -------------
 | | | | | | |
 -------------
 | | | | | | |
 -------------

 | | |x|x| | |
 -------------
 | |o|x|x| | |
 -------------
 | | |x| | | |
 -------------
 | | |R| | | |
 -------------
 | | | | | | |
 -------------
 | | | | | | |
 -------------
```

The "o" there i'm not sure should be covered or not...  after some thought, i'm pretty sure that it should be there.  Players handbook will confirm these (or not).


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## michael_noah (Nov 10, 2006)

Sick of editing.  In other words, it's gonna be pretty tough for Breth to hit 1 and 3 while missing alexis.   He'd need to move on the other side of A and 1, provoking for moving there (and casting).


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## Dichotomy (Nov 11, 2006)

So, while worthley makes a new character, I'd like to discuss our options here.  I've been talking to michael_noah and Ti about this some already.

The adventure is difficult.  Those wolves were an EL 3 encounter.  This is, obviously, above you guys, but still within the limits set by the DMG.  In short, while you wouldn't want every encounter to be like that, it really was winnable.  But, in any case, the game is going to degenerate fast if we lose a character every encounter.  And there WILL be encounters more difficult than three wolves.

There are three obvious ways to deal with this: 1) make you guys more powerful somehow; 2) make the encounters less difficult; 3) make the party bigger.  Option 1 doesn't seem logical.  I guess we could retroactively increase the point-buy, but I don't think that would do it.  I haven't thought about it much though.  Option 2 is ill-favored by both me and mn.  If there's no sense of challenge, I suspect things will get boring.  And, again, the encounter with the wolves could have gone much better.  It makes me think of what happened against the swarm the first time compared to the second.  Sure, adding burning hands to the mix helped, but the biggest change was tactics.  In my opinion, the same thing happened with the wolves.  (Well, the early problems were because of tactics; later it was just a stream of bad rolls.)

So, in my opinion, we should add a 5th character to the party.  It wouldn't make things unbalanced.  Hard stuff will still be hard.  But there will be another set of hitpoints to take a beating and another set of actions that could turn a bad situation around.  If you guys agree that we should add a 5th, we need to decide how to do that.

1.  Find a specific person to join us
I don't think we know anyone else in RL that would be interested/motivated sufficiently to get involved.  If you know of anyone, let me know.

2.  Getting someone from here
We could open a recruiting thread and try to find someone to join us.  In the alternative, Ti suggested perhaps specifically asking someone we played with before to join us.  Here's the thing (and if anyone from the EN World community is reading, this is only my experience), unreliability abounds and is easy to mask.  As Ti can attest, I painstakingly chose the players for the first time I ran this adventure here.  Everyone seemed rock solid.  At the end of the day, each and every one of those players (that I didn't personally know) ended up dropping out.  I also play in other games here, and, it bothers me to say it, but in my experience such unreliability is the rule, not the exception.  There is no way to sufficiently screen for that sort of thing.  If you guys want to go this route, we can try it, but I'd be leery.

3.  The horrible, always-to-be-avoided DMPC
I think we sufficiently know what bad things can happen with a DMPC (I know worthley remembers "Kitty").  I also think that it MIGHT be our best option at this time.

Thoughts?


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## Dichotomy (Nov 11, 2006)

Oh, and

```
| |x|x|x| | |
 -------------
 | |x|x|x| | |
 -------------
 | | |x| | | |
 -------------
 | | |R| | | |
 -------------
 | | | | | | |
 -------------
 | | | | | | |
 -------------
```
is a 15' cone straight ahead.


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## michael_noah (Nov 11, 2006)

Is that what the PHB says?  'Cause that can't be right; at least one of the squares in the furthest away row is more than 15' from the casting.  Oh well, it looks prettier.


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## Dichotomy (Nov 11, 2006)

It's the template in the back of the DMG.  I'm not sure, but I think the reason it seems screwed up is because cones start at an intersection.  But, unlike every other cone, a 15' cone going straight ahead is only 1 square wide at its base.  Well, I'm not really sure, but whatever.


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## michael_noah (Nov 11, 2006)

Well, my point still stands (some of the cone in the template extends further than 15').  I think exactly where the cone can be placed is also questionable, but probably not too important.

In response:
1)  Weiss has no real connectivity, and he'd have to learn everything.  We don't know any other people.

2)  Yeah.  I just agree with everything you said here.

3)  It turns out I agree again.  This probably is our best option.  An additional reason why: it doesn't add the need to wait for another person to post.  Another: if we decide that it's not working, or that it's no longer needed, etc. I'd guess that we can get rid of a DM PC with a lot less fuss/hurt feelings, etc. than other options.

Additionally, I think we players can mitigate some of the problems by being smarter.  In the first swarm battle, we really did a lot of dumb stuff (like me moving next to everyone).  In this wolf battle, we also did some dumb stuff (like Alexis getting in the way of Trenton's charge at #2).  We need to stop doing dumb stuff.  I'm not sure if it's because we're not around a table, or what, but it seems that we're completely lacking a lot of tactics.  I don't want to have 20 minute planning sessions between each round of combat (not to mention that that just wouldn't work in PbP format), but we should do more.


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## Dichotomy (Nov 11, 2006)

michael_noah said:
			
		

> if we decide that it's not working, or that it's no longer needed, etc. I'd guess that we can get rid of a DM PC with a lot less fuss/hurt feelings, etc. than other options.



Ummm... RIGHT!


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## TiCaudata (Nov 11, 2006)

Dichotomy said:
			
		

> 2.  Getting someone from here
> We could open a recruiting thread and try to find someone to join us.  In the alternative, Ti suggested perhaps specifically asking someone we played with before to join us.  Here's the thing (and if anyone from the EN World community is reading, this is only my experience), unreliability abounds and is easy to mask.  As Ti can attest, I painstakingly chose the players for the first time I ran this adventure here.  Everyone seemed rock solid.  At the end of the day, each and every one of those players (that I didn't personally know) ended up dropping out.  I also play in other games here, and, it bothers me to say it, but in my experience such unreliability is the rule, not the exception.  There is no way to sufficiently screen for that sort of thing.  If you guys want to go this route, we can try it, but I'd be leery.




I have already (maybe exhaustively) pointed out that 5 case studies hardly equal a rule.  Add to that ENWorld's botched backup fiasco and I think that the fact that we managed to hobble to a TPK is pretty impressive.  I'm also a interminable optimist about such things.  Have we seen definite trends towards flakiness in the PbP world?  Absolutely!  Will things probably go better and last longer if we included another person we know instead of a stranger from the board?  Almost certainly, if for no other reason than we all know where to physically track down an errant poster (even if it could take a few hours to get there).  

I do think that having an outside influence on our sessions wouldn't really be all that bad.  If WE can keep the momentum and interest of the game going, then bringing in a 5th would have fewer risks since they theorhetically would be interested.  From your stories, breakdown comes during times of lull (e.g.'s the pause between recruiting and startup, the pause of replacing a character with a legitimate reason to leave, the pause of trying to locate the adventure using google's caches) so if we minimize lulls we stand a better chance of keeping the adventure moving.  Hey Worthley!  Where's the new character?  You have an anniversary every year, you only die once.  Wait, that's probably not accurate here...   

If we bring in someone new, it should probably be done before the new character is made, so as to provide options.  If we DMPC ::shudder:: that should get worked out between Dichotomy and Worthley :: only slightly less of a shudder::.

I'm only addressing this part of the issue because I think the options of making the monsters easier or us tougher are even more reprehensible than a DMPC.



Switching topics...

Alot of dumb stuff can easily be chalked up to good role playing.  Boldak's a brash hot head and therefore grouped up in hopes of oil and charged off after green "lights".  What are the odds that Alexis knew to think about a potential charge?  Breth and Shavora just met, why not have her fight?  On the other hand, dying sucks and we have to base our characters with some basic amount of game mechanics knowledge in order for them to live.  I don't think that saying "Don't do dumb stuff!" is an actual solution, because inexperienced adventurers would do dumb stuff, and have a high mortality rate because of that.  

Nav died, I had a huge understanding of who that character was in my head, but he didn't (and wouldn't have) run when he should have and therefore died.  With Breth, I added some basic knowledge and opportunity into his backstory and we now have burning hands and alchemist fire (things I couldn't justify giving Nav, even though I KNEW that it'd help against swarms).  Dumb things have been done so far in the game, but I don't think that any of them can be said to be 'out of character-ally stupid'.  That I think should be looked as a good thing that we should keep avoiding, as much as 'out of character-ally smart'.

Right now we have 2 characters who have an opportunity to learn from a few past mistakes, and one character who has second hand knowledge along with some first hand (don't have your bird attack...)


So, I advocate keeping the game waaaay stronger on role playing than mechanics and am willing to make more characters as the result.  That being said, let's do try to keep the PC body count low through IC mistake learning.  I'll probably draft a post to that effect here before night falls too.

Discussion?


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## Dichotomy (Nov 11, 2006)

It's not my intent to get us all worked into a tizzy about this, but I'd like to clarify a bit.


			
				TiCaudata said:
			
		

> I have already (maybe exhaustively) pointed out that 5 case studies hardly equal a rule.  Add to that ENWorld's botched backup fiasco and I think that the fact that we managed to hobble to a TPK is pretty impressive.



I think you took what I said out of context and/or completely misunderstood what I said.


			
				I said... said:
			
		

> Here's the thing _[snip]_, unreliability abounds and is easy to mask. As Ti can attest, [blah blah snip]  *I also play in other games here, and, it bothers me to say it, but in my experience such unreliability is the rule, not the exception.*



Emphasis added.  If what I said suggested that I was basing the "rule" off of only my original attempt at this adventure, I apologize for miscommunicating.  What I intended to convey (which I thought was obvious) was that from the totality of my experience on these boards (which is somewhere around 8 or so games with varying players involved, as well as more than once seeing threads devoted solely to people saying things like "do any of YOUR games survive past a few weeks?") unreliability is the rule.


			
				TiCaudata said:
			
		

> From your stories, breakdown comes during times of lull (e.g.'s the pause between recruiting and startup, the pause of replacing a character with a legitimate reason to leave, the pause of trying to locate the adventure using google's caches) so if we minimize lulls we stand a better chance of keeping the adventure moving.



While that has certainly been true in some cases, in almost every instance I've encountered such breakdown (excluding the previous incarnation of this game) the breakdown, oddly, occurred in midstride (like in combat, or in the middle of the dungeon, etc.).

I don't point all this out simply to be contrary or whatnot, but rather because I don't want us to make any decision (even if colored by certain people's optimism/pessimism) based on inaccurate data.

I also don't say this in an attempt to "rule out" adding someone.  I am willing to do it if that is what we decide is best.  I just want to make it known there are issues that we may face.


			
				TiCaudata said:
			
		

> I'm only addressing this part of the issue because I think the options of making the monsters easier or us tougher are even more reprehensible than a DMPC.



I just KNEW we'd agree on something.

I'm I correct in inferring from the tenor of your post that you'd prefer to add a real person rather than a DMPC?  I also am not sure if it is your position that we even should add a 5th character at all.  Is it?  I figure that if we are going to have a discussion, we might as well get on the same page.

And, in case it wasn't obvious, I'd also like to know what o3 and worthley think about the whole thing.

As for the whole tactics thing, I'm gonna keep my nose out of it for the time being.  I'd like to see what you guys think about that.


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## TiCaudata (Nov 12, 2006)

Dichotomy said:
			
		

> I just KNEW we'd agree on something.




We always do.  

Sorry for the mix up here, I'm pretty sure it probably lies more in my miscommunications (go figure) than yours.  I don't know the boards well or in great depth, but I actually was referring to your number of direct experiences.  In some ways I am saying this to be contrary, but here's my main point:

This site is HUGE with lots of (snow?)flakes drifting down in the midst of it all.  Even with 8 games with multiple different people in each game and even including reading a number of threads that deal with this very issue, we don't have a decent cross section of the site.  There are 1500+ people on right now with 2600+ IC threads.  This site would not be this popular if it always failed.  I'm not denying that flakes exist or even that we might run into more than a few if we open up a 5th position.  I am also not trying to belittle your direct experience.  However, I really do think that with a good amount of filtering on your behalf we ended up with a decent crowd last time and made it through some big hurdles before we disintegrated when only 2 original PC's were left.  The case I'm making for this time is that with 4 pretty dedicated PC's keeping a 5th interested is way more likely.  Add in that I'm backing the pages up personally and I believe we can definitely finish this adventure and maybe start into the next one without much difficulty.  Again, eternal optimist viewpoint here...



To solidify my view.  I'm all for 5th character inclusion.  I think it would be a good way to handle the increased difficulty of this adventure.  I'd prefer that 5th character to be someone else.  

Someone we knew would be better, but we don't know anyone else with 3rd edition knowledge.  (hell I don't even have all that much 3.5 knowledge)  

Someone on the boards is possible, but only with a really good (and maybe slightly rigorous) filter applied to them for flakiness.  A potential filter should be sure and notify them that we really do expect them to stick with the game for awhile and post at least once per day as a bare minimum starter. 

DMPC is a last resort, and I see it as having only a slight advantage over 4 person party. (That advantage being wholesale total hp count.)


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## stonegod (Nov 12, 2006)

Let me add my (totally unsolicited) two cents, if folks don't mind. If they do, feel free to ignore me.  FYI: I'm running AoW in RL and have done so for quite some time. I've also been on ENWorld for over a year now and in several games (some which are even still going!)

Point the First: AoW is a meat-grinder, especially at the lower levels. While I agree that RP reasons can explain initially rough tactics, it can bite you in the rear at the end. The Paizo board has over 20 pages of obits, most of them from the Whispering Cairn.

Point the Second: AoW is not really designed for four players. Even though Paizo states it is, all their playtesting was with six. Adding a fifth character is probably a good idea.

Point the Third: I will echo Dichotomy's point on the flakiness of the board. People leave at random times---sometimes before game begins, sometimes in lull, sometimes in the middle of combat. Another reason you'll see may folks take six or so players in a game here is that a 1/3 drop out rate is not uncommon.

Point the Fourth: On the flip side, however, there are some very dedicated players on the board. Access time, post count, frequency in other threads (not always represented in post count) all help to assess this. It isn't an art, however. Asking for post frequency info, list of other games, etc. can help a lot for a "filter".

Final point: I like what I've read of the IC thread. Hope everyone continues to have fun!


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## michael_noah (Nov 12, 2006)

Lots of thoughts coming.  Stay tuned:

1) While 8 samples is pretty small, statistically speaking, it is *very* unlikely that 8/8 samples would produce flakiness if there was not a high occurance in the general population.  

1b) Your point stands that there must be some folks that are dedicated, else there would be no games on which to flake out.

2) I think I've got a different feeling about the inexperienced adventurers/roleplaying/tactics issue than you, Ti.  Inexperienced adventurers might very well make mistakes from time to time, but if they always do, then there will never be experienced adventurers.  Also, the DnD world is such that mistakes _do_ lead to death all the time, so adventurers (who are even more likely to make mortal decisions) would be very inclined to not make mistakes.  It's not as though a decision to cast a certain spell will make you lose a test.  It will make you dead.  Because of this I think in the DnD world you'd see a lot less mistakes, and a lot more planning, tactics, etc.  We don't always play this out in the game because we're impatient, or because we don't know exactly how, but I'm relatively certain that the characters would.  Those that did not, whether it be because their personality dictates it or not, would simply not live.  Perhaps the way to explain this is this: Tasselhoff is purely fiction - such a character would never survive without the intervention of the gods (which I suppose is also possible).

3) There is no reason that good roleplaying should ever make it impossible to have "good mechanics".  See the Stormwind Fallacy.

4) It is incredibly encouraging that there are others on the board reading and enjoying what we're doing, and that they care enough to give us some advice.  Thank you, stonegod.


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## TiCaudata (Nov 12, 2006)

Good read, but I wasn't intending to imply that either rules or roleplaying.  I don't think that I would enjoy free form or high consent formats nearly as much as a standard format.  I do however think we need to make sure that our characters don't "magically" posses knowledge that they would have no reason to know, even if that means mortality.  I think that we NEED to make sure the roleplaying is as tight as the mechanics at the very least. (The implication being that there are holes in the mechanics from time to time.)


Also... 
Thanks for the post stonegod.  It is indeed encouraging to know that others might be paying attention.


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## Dichotomy (Nov 12, 2006)

To echo a little bit, I also appreciate your input, stonegod.  Thanks much.  Although, now I'm slightly intimidated that people are actually reading this stuff...  

Ti, thanks for making your opinion blantantly obvious for me.  I'm going to email o3 and worthley to make sure that they are still around.  I'd like to know what they think about this so that we can get going ASAP.


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## michael_noah (Nov 12, 2006)

Ti,
  I think that we're actually in agreement for the most part.  I see a difference, though, between using out-of-game knowledge that characters shouldn't have, and using game/world knowledge that I would assume all characters to have.  Every character should know the charging rules, how long it takes to light a torch, etc.  They should even know some things that don't make real-world sense but are needed to know to survive in the game-world, like exactly how far they can move in 6 seconds, or the exact moment that it gets dark enough to hide.  We need to make sure we make use of that knowledge, and to your point, that we limit it to the things the characters actually should know.  I guess that's the difficult part.


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## worthley (Nov 12, 2006)

First off, I would like to thank Stonegod for the outside comments.  I think that an outside view is very helpful.  I also find it interesting that people are finding what we are doing entertaining enough that the are continuing to read, and willing to post their opinions.

I do think that the right course of action is to find another player.  I think if we spent a decent amount of time, we could find someone here that has a very low flake-out percentage.  I think that everyone we know in real life might be a very big longshot to play in a productive manner.

To find a new player, I think that we could make a post here and/or in the IC thread asking for people to express their interest in the OOC thread.  This would give us responces from people who already have an interest in what is going on with our story, and probably solve some of the flake-out issues.


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## o3caudata (Nov 12, 2006)

i see two parts.  people and tactics.

on the topic of adding another person, i'm definitely leaning toward the dmpc.  I agree that they are problematic in many ways.  i think though that they are problems we are all already accustomed to dealing with for the most part, and i'm certain that if any of us are capable of running a dmpc to the best degree possible, it's dichotomy.  my reservations about adding another from the masses of enworld are pretty simple.  I don't want a flake.  dichotomy isn't a flake, and i think the loss of "realism" with a dmpc is more than accounted for by removing the possibility of having a flake.  I also second mn's comments that should we get to 5th or 6th level and decide we want to try a 4 person party, getting rid of the dmpc should be easier than a real person.  More importantly, should we try a 4 person party and decide it's not working, it will then be way easier to re-integrate the dmpc.  My thoughts at least.  HOWEVER, dichotomy gets to make the call in my mind.  If he's not comfortable running a dmpc, or is seriously in favor of looking for a new pc, that's what we should do.  He's dm, and i think having our input, he should make the call himself.

then....  tactics.

This has always kind of been a bitter part of our roleplaying.  i think that both ti and mn make excellent points.  the sticking point for me is the amount of knowledge a pc should have, and what amount of that they should be able to recall in the stress of combat.  Obviously the pc's have a level of understanding about 'their' world that exceeds our own understanding as mn pointed out.  Forgive me for sounding like a... well... hmm.  I think the element that's missing is emotion.  Yes, dichotomy or mn, in a battle with three flesh eating wolves might be able to maintain a level of control that allows them to play out completely ideal tactics in the given rule-set provided to them.  But the characters we play, or at least the ones i play, aren't me, and i don't want them to be.  It's ok with me if my character forgets that if they do A someone else won't be able to do B. In fact I WANT that to happen.    

We are a group of people who just met and have what amount to no experience fighting in this group or perhaps at all.  It should be EXPECTED that we will suck at tactics.  We don't know eachother.  The part that has sucked about this situation was the two encounters where we could have been learning about how we fight and how we will fit together as a group, we instead were trying not to die.

my two cents.... more later maybe...


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## TiCaudata (Nov 12, 2006)

o3caudata said:
			
		

> ...and i'm certain that if any of us are capable of running a dmpc to the best degree possible, it's dichotomy.



I totally agree with this.



			
				o3caudata said:
			
		

> i think the loss of "realism" with a dmpc is more than accounted for by removing the possibility of having a flake.



I don't really agree with this.  The "realism" comes from another view point in my mind, Dichotomy could run one very well, but we already get his viewpoint usually.  Flakes are sucky, but generally pretty imaginative.  Besides we are going to apply a strong filter and avoid them...   



			
				o3caudata said:
			
		

> I also second mn's comments that should we get to 5th or 6th level and decide we want to try a 4 person party, getting rid of the dmpc should be easier than a real person.  More importantly, should we try a 4 person party and decide it's not working, it will then be way easier to re-integrate the dmpc.



If we find someone that sticks around until level 5 or 6 I think we would have succeeded fantastically.  This adventure goes to level 3 or so, and at that point the decision to make cuts would probably be made.  At our current rates that's a year down the road or so.  If we still have a 5 person party at that point, but think that the encounters are entirely too easy, I think it would be much easier to ratchet the CR up a notch than worry about cutting ties with a no-longer-new person.  It is my impression that ratcheting CR's is easier going up than down at least.


For the most part I think we all are agreeing on the viewpoint we should have on tactics.  Some things could be considered basic knowledge in the world or adventurer class, some things have to be learned.  If we actually learn from our mistakes we will be successful, and should be happy with a lower body count.


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## Dichotomy (Nov 12, 2006)

Alright.  Thanks for the input by all.

I'm going to go with the DMPC, at least for the time being.  o3 and michael_noah seem to clearly have a preference for the DMPC.  Honestly, so do I, for all the reasons stated, and probably some more.  The DMPC is also the less... ummm... permanent, perhaps, of a change.  If the DMPC thing doesn't seem to be working for us, we can phase it out and look for a 5th.  We'd even be able to keep playing until we found the 5th.

I know that Ti and worthley disagree with this solution, but I don't know what else to do about it (since I don't think any of us are going to convince the others, and we can't just talk about it forever).

The bottom line for me is the flake issue.  There are certainly ways to minimize it, even more than I did in the first go-around.  But basically, I don't want to risk it.  Maybe I'm overly sensitive.  Maybe I'm just bitter because nearly all of my experiences had ended badly (and even the games I'm currently in appear to be circling the toilet bowl, so to speak).  But if we found someone, and that person "flaked," I would be totally irate (almost certainly to an irrational degree).  I think my perception of both the likelihood of getting a flake and the damage that having a flake would cause is just greater than Ti or worthley attribute.

Bottom-bottom line: Yeah, having a solid 5th real player would be great.  Having a DMPC wouldn't be as good.  Getting a flake would bother me to such a degree that I'm willing to "settle" rather than roll the dice.  The "calculus of risk" just cuts in favor of a DMPC for me.

Worthley, don't feel like you need to make a specific type of character to fill the missing party role.  If you want to be a warrior, go ahead, but if you don't, I'll fill the gap.


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## michael_noah (Nov 15, 2006)

Let's sell:
Chain Shirt - 50gp
7 Javellin - 3.5gp
Scythe - 9gp
2 Backpack - 2gp
Winter Blanket - .25gp
Bedroll - .05gp
Flint and Steel - .5gp
Belt Pouch - .5gp
Waterskin - .5gp
Clay Mug - .01gp

66.31g

Call it 22g 1s each.

+ the stuff Alexis money alexis still hasn't taken.

Also, please please please keep track of all the stuff you take, and how much it's worth (it should be really easy if you're using Dichotomy's sheet).  That way, when we have questions about who should get more treasure because someone has way more than their share, Dichotomy can easily tell.


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## burnout02urza (Nov 16, 2006)

Wow, I've been following the adventure so far...And this looks great! (And active.)

Do you have space for one more player? If so, please contact me at my e-mail address. It's burnout02urza@yahoo.com , just in case; I'll like to know the points value and level to start.

What kind of character does the party need? I was thinking a charismatic Fighter/Sorceror, or alternatively a Cleric...


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## Dichotomy (Nov 17, 2006)

burnout02urza, we aren't particularly looking for more players at this point.  However, we may decide later that we want to add one.  If we do, I'll likely make a recruitment thread.


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## Dichotomy (Nov 18, 2006)

Now seems like a good time to give you guys XP.  I've arbitrarily decided to let Viktor and Alendar split Trenton's share.  150 each to them, 300 each for the rest of you.

I've also edited the posts at the beginning of this thread.  The last of my initial series now has a list of loot found, stuff killed, and XP earned.


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## worthley (Nov 22, 2006)

Just to let everyone know, Thanksgiving weekend, I probably won't be able to post very often.  Best case sinario, I post Friday noonish, followed by Sunday noonish.  More likely senario I will post later on Thursday and not until late sunday.  I will call Dichotomy this weekend and have him keep my character going while I'm gone for a few days if everyone wants to keep going.


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## Dichotomy (Nov 22, 2006)

I'm going to be at my mother's starting Wednesday night.  As she lives in the dark ages and has dialup, I probably won't be updating as much.  But I plan to remember to bring the adventure with me, unlike last time.


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## Dichotomy (Nov 22, 2006)

Sorry guys.  My update will have to wait until tonight.  I want to get traveling before rush hour and such.  But I should have plenty of time later.


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## michael_noah (Nov 22, 2006)

Might not be able to post at all tomorrow, but I'll be back around as of Friday afternoon.


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## Branding Opportunity (Nov 24, 2006)

*Pictures and other things available*

Hi folks,

Just wanted to say that I've been enjoying reading the IC thread of this game.  Also wanted to mention to Dichotomy that one can find a bunch of AoW-specific pictures up on our INFO THREAD.  Feel free to steal them to your heart's content.  I stole a fair amount of them myself.  Players should probably stay away as it contains some spoilers.

have fun!

BrOp


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## Dichotomy (Nov 24, 2006)

Thanks for the info.  I will certainly be perusing it, but probably not until I get back to the civilized world of high-speed internet.  Blasted parents with their dial-up...


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## TiCaudata (Dec 3, 2006)

Well I've found out that I'm going to be sent up north for the bulk of next week to do soils work.  As of now, I'm getting picked up at the office at 5pm on Monday and gone until maybe Friday.  The client is providing all of my food lodging etc, so I'm not sure if I will have internet for the bulk of the time.  The bright side of this is that I won't be sitting staring at my computer all week, the down side is that I will be pretty much out of communication with the outside world and that I have to get my last 2 wisdoms yanked on my birthday.

I'll try to post if I can, otherwise Breth is getting tired from the rapid spellcasting and Dichotomy can take over any essential movements until I come back.  I'll iron out any inconsistencies when I get back .


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## TiCaudata (Dec 4, 2006)

Oh yeah, joint bday party for my bro and I at my place on Friday the 8th.  I'll make egg nog again.


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## michael_noah (Dec 5, 2006)

Di, could you clarify what you wrote in your last post?  You said, "On the floor in the niche is a massive stone column covering the area."  That sounds to me like there's another colomn in the niche of the super big column... but that's certainly not on the map.


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## Dichotomy (Dec 5, 2006)

It amounts to a, comparably, short block of stone in the niche (roughly 8 feet high or so).  It is, indeed, not on the map, but it's still there.


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## TiCaudata (Dec 8, 2006)

Well I was able to post daily from the last trip, but I just received word that I am supposed to go to Lake Vermillion for the first couple days of next week.  Again this is being thrown together like a multi-speci flesh golem by an inept and slightly mad gnome illusionist and I won't know all of the details until Tuesday night when I get back, if then.

So I'll be posting Sunday afternoon/evening, and then it will be up in the air until Tuesday night for me.

Sounds like a good reason to drink heavily for the next two nights!


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## TiCaudata (Dec 10, 2006)

What time is it anyway?  I figured with the 5 hours rest it would be early eveningish at the latest, but I don't really have a clue.


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## Dichotomy (Dec 10, 2006)

Well, I've not kept strict track of the time, but you guys left Diamond Lake in the morning and went straight to the cairn.  Searched some, including the wolves' den, and scouted a bit of the chamber the with sarcophagus.  Set off a couple of traps, and finally went down the elevator.  The trip to the cairn is 1-1.5 hours.  I'd guess probably 1-2 hours spent searching and such, but that could have been more.  Then 5 hours resting so far.  So it's likely 8ish hours since you left town.  So it is probably late afternoon, getting close to suppertime.

Does that comport with what everyone else thinks?


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## michael_noah (Dec 10, 2006)

That's what I was thinking.  We could do some more stuff... but it's close enough to where we'd want to make a camp etc. that we won't be waiting around more than a couple hours.


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## TiCaudata (Dec 10, 2006)

Yeah that makes sense with what I was thinking, I was just a little worried that the OOC note meant it was too late for Alexis' spell prep and we'd have to wait 24 hours or something.


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## TiCaudata (Dec 11, 2006)

Well I'm up in Cook, and I am pretty sure I'm pirating wireless from some neighbor of the motel.  It's weak, but useable.  We'll see if they let me keep using it for the next two days.


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## michael_noah (Dec 13, 2006)

Kill It!

I'm where you have me.  obv.


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## michael_noah (Dec 13, 2006)

since boldak is last here, i'll give a thing in case i'm slow.  just have him flank with whomever attacks it, sticking it with his sword.  Alternatively, he awaits Alendar so he can shoot freely, then does the sticking.


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## michael_noah (Dec 14, 2006)

I hit a thing!


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## TiCaudata (Dec 14, 2006)

I killed a thing!


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## o3caudata (Dec 15, 2006)

100!!!!!


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## michael_noah (Dec 15, 2006)

Boldak totally does not move the sarcophagus if the others are still downstairs.  I was assuming that it was after they'd followed.


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## Dichotomy (Dec 18, 2006)

michael_noah said:
			
		

> FYI - I still think it makes no sense that an Alchemist's Fire would need to hit the touch AC of the swarm(when a lantern only needs to hit the square), though there is no other interpretation available in the rules.





			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Alchemist’s Fire
> 
> You can throw a flask of alchemist’s fire as a splash weapon. Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet.
> 
> A direct hit deals 1d6 points of fire damage. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits takes 1 point of fire damage from the splash. On the round following a direct hit, the target takes an additional 1d6 points of damage.[...]





			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Throw Splash Weapon
> 
> A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don’t take the -4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target.
> 
> ...





			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Vulnerabilities Of Swarms[...]
> A lit lantern can be used as a thrown weapon, dealing 1d4 points of fire damage to all creatures in squares adjacent to where it breaks.



Anyone have thoughts?  I guess one could throw the alchemist fire targeting a grid intersection next to the swarm (since you can't target an intersection that it is in).  In which case it would deal 1 damage, rather than a lantern's 1d4.


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## michael_noah (Dec 18, 2006)

That's what the rules say, and I think it's silly that a thing made specifically to hurt people (a magicky thing, no less), does a worse job than a lantern.  It's really a problem with swarms, though, not with thrown weapons.

And the rule that you cannot target a grid intersection occupied by a large creature should also not apply to swarms, otherwise throwing a lantern is just dumb.  You need to aim at the edge of the swarm, not the middle?  Swarms are silly.

Barring anyone having an epiphany, Boldak will target the swarm normally and hope he rolls well.


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## TiCaudata (Dec 18, 2006)

Swarms ARE silly.  They should count as a bunch of tiny creatures that occupy an area of effect or something, rather than both tiny creatures that can't be hurt with weapons and large creatures that can't be targeted normally.  It isn't as though 5,000 beetles would get in the way of a flask like an ogre would.

I also think that spells that damage creatures in adjacent squares should have an additive effect on swarms.  Yes, that would make it MUCH easier to kill the swarm, but I would probably complain less that it is considered a large creature if its total size could be used against it at all.

The notion that alchemist's fire is less effective than a lobbed lantern really is ridiculous.  The only thing I can think that might work is declare the individual creatures tiny with the high touch AC, but say that they wouldn't block the targeting of an intersection.  At the same time they collectively cover a large area and have collective hit points so that the fire only deals damage once per round, therefore keeping the fire from being TOO powerful.  This weakens the swarm a bit, but we've often said that the most broken part of the swarm is the touch AC.

Alternatively, I suppose, would be to throw it at the intersection in between Alexis and Viktor so that when the bugs decide to eat them both the bugs will fry on the second round.


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## Dichotomy (Dec 18, 2006)

I was thinking this over some more, and I think perhaps the easiest solution to adjust a swarm's AC to treat it as a large creature rather than a diminutive one (have a -1 size mod to AC rather than a +4).  I think this makes intuitive sense, since you aren't trying to hit a diminutive creature.  It also, to me, makes more sense for balance purposes.

For example, take a look at spider swarm:  9 hit points; 20 move (but its ACTUALLY 40 move, since it doesn't take an action to attack; it just moves over you and auto damages); it does 1d6 damage, WITHOUT and attack roll, to EVERYONE it covers; it can only be hurt by weapons that people usually aren't wielding.  Add on to that an AC and touch AC of 17, and you realize why people die, because even the members of the party that are GOOD at hitting stuff will miss more than half the time.  CR 1 my ass.

Now, change that AC to 12, and it seems more balanced, at least to me.  Do you guys think that is probably right, or does that make it too easy?


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## TiCaudata (Dec 18, 2006)

It makes it more difficult than my option, but takes care of the size thing which is primarily what I was trying to focus on.  I think that this probably is the most correct option.  Since you can't target an individual creature in the swarm it just doesn't make sense that you would have to target each individual creature rather than the swarm as a total.


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## o3caudata (Dec 19, 2006)

Swarms are stupid.  Less so with the lowered armor class.... I can't believe they got that bonus...  They'll certainly be more manageble without it.


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## worthley (Dec 20, 2006)

What is going to happen with posting for the end of the year/holidays?


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## Dichotomy (Dec 20, 2006)

From the 22nd to the 27th I will have sporadic access at best (stupid dial-up).  From the 27th until late on the 1st I probably won't have access at all.  So, basically, post if you can.


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## TiCaudata (Dec 21, 2006)

there'll be a phone line in Nashwauk, it makes normal dialup seem like greased rails and has a tendency to spontaneously disconnect, but it's there.


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## Dichotomy (Dec 21, 2006)

Well, I also have no intention of using the internet at Nashwauk.  I still remember when we refused to use clocks up there...


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## Dichotomy (Dec 21, 2006)

Ti, mn, and o3, you guys should work on leveling up your characters.  Don't worry worthley, you and Alendar are right behind them.


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## TiCaudata (Dec 21, 2006)

woot


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## michael_noah (Dec 21, 2006)

*Treasures:*

[The following are not divied up]
Goggles (of make see better)
Sculpting Tools
Chainmail (magic)
3 statuettes
2 "rods" (magic)
Waterskin full of sludge
6 Intricate Lanterns (hanging in the cairn) - 1 with everburning torch.
Leafy Armband (worth money)


Don't forget to take your 22g 1s each from selling Trenton's stuff, Alexis and Breth, I won't mention this again.  I believe the other stuff we've found was also claimed, rope, oil, tindertwigs, and rations from dead folk.


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## worthley (Dec 21, 2006)

Dichotomy said:
			
		

> Ti, mn, and o3, you guys should work on leveling up your characters.  Don't worry worthley, you and Alendar are right behind them.



Yeah Dichotomy, you tell yourself not to worry there ;-)


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## Dichotomy (Dec 21, 2006)

I only just now realized that I hadn't posted on leveling up at all.  It was my intent for hitpoints to be max at 1st level and then a true average thereafter.

d4: at even levels, get 2; at odd, 3
d6: 3 and 4
d8: 4 and 5
d10: 5 and 6
d12: 6 and 7

Does that work for everyone?  Is there anything else I missed?


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## michael_noah (Dec 22, 2006)

And to clarify so that the above actually explains how many hit points you get, I believe Dichotomy wants 2nd level to be the lower of the two average amounts.


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## Dichotomy (Dec 22, 2006)

Yeah.... 2 qualifies as even...


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## TiCaudata (Dec 27, 2006)

As most of you know, I'm going to be going to Denver next week to visit Al, some family, and some other friends.  I don't know where I'll have access to internet at, or how often I will be able to post.  This is more or less just a formal announcement of that.


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## worthley (Jan 9, 2007)

So, I will be heading to my dad's for a week.  I will post before I leave friday the 12th.  As, Di's mom is more technologically advanced than the entire state my dad lives in, I won't be able to post until saturday the 20th.  If Di wants to take over my character while I'm gone again, I am ok with that.


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## Dichotomy (Feb 4, 2007)

As a heads up, I've edited the first post in Part II of the IC thread with a summary of Part I.  Read it over and let me know if you want any additions or if something is wrong, etc.

Oh, and michael_noah, we are TOTALLY waiting for you to post.  That football game is no excuse.


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## michael_noah (Feb 6, 2007)

*Treasure update*

[The following are not divied up, sort of]
Goggles (of make see better)
Sculpting Tools
Chainmail (+1)
2 "rods" (unseen servant, shatter)
Waterskin full of sludge
Finger
7 Intricate Lanterns (hanging in the cairn)
Everburning torch
Potion
Potion
Potion
Ring (magic)
Pearl (of power... i mean magic)
shortsword (magic)
mwk leather
silver ring
ruby



Sold-
Leafy Armband (worth money)
3 statuettes


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## TiCaudata (Feb 12, 2007)

alright I"m thinking maybe wizard this time?  I dunno, we still don't have anywhere near the funds to raise a dead guy.  I could give this whole metamancer guy a chance after another death or two... There's my defeatist thought for the day...  

I'll start rolling here


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## michael_noah (Feb 12, 2007)

From Breth we'll all get 15.13 gold (yay treasure!  just kidding.  sort of.)

Also, the below includes his stuff.  Let me know what goes to whom.  Is Viktor keeping the chainmail for the time being?

[The following are not divied up, sort of]
Goggles (of make see better)
Sculpting Tools
Chainmail (+1)
2 "rods" (unseen servant, shatter)
Waterskin full of sludge
Finger
7 Intricate Lanterns (hanging in the cairn)
Everburning torch
Potion
Potion
Potion
Ring (magic)
Pearl (of power... i mean magic)
shortsword (magic)
mwk leather
silver ring
ruby
Lantern, hooded                
Oil, (1 pint flask), 6    
Tindertwig, 14
Trail rations, 5 days    
Bread loaf                
Cheese hunk                
Meat chunck   
Alchemist's Fire (Boldak will claim if noone objects)

Sold-
Leafy Armband (worth money)
3 statuettes
Darts, 5 1.25gp              
Backpack 1gp               
Bedroll .05gp               
Scroll Case .5gp               
Paper, 5 sheets 1gp               
Ink (1 oz vial) 4gp                
Inkpen .05g                
Traveler's outfit (not actually sold, bury with him)                
Flask .01g                
Waterskin .5g                
Belt pouch .5g               
Soap .25g                
Signet Ring (not actually sold, bury with him)


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## Dichotomy (Feb 12, 2007)

I've been thinking about a new class for a bit now, and Ti has indicated that he is willing to playtest it.  I wanted to post it so that you can all comment.

The short version:
Take a druid.  Totally drop wildshape.  Make it a spontaneous caster based on CHA.  Give it a bit more sklil points and better saves, while lowering the BAB.

The interesting thing is that the class looks REALLY strong to me, especially compared with the sorc.  However, it is also HANDS DOWN worse than the old druid.

Thoughts?
[sblock=Proposed New Class]Druids are broken.  Sorcs suck.  Here's a proposed fix.

*The Fey Caster*
*Hit Die:* d6
*BAB:* poor (as Wizard)
*Saves:* Good Fort, Ref, and Will
*Skill Points at 1st level:* (6+int modifier) x4
*Skill Points at each additional Level:* 6 + Int Modifier
*Class Skills: *  The fey caster's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

*Weapon and Armor Proficiency:* As druid.


```
[B]The Fey Caster           Hit Die: d6                                     
        Base                                                                             
        Attack    Fort   Ref    Will                                             
Level   Bonus     Save   Save   Save   Special                                    [/B]
1st     +0           +2     +2     +2     Animal companion, nature sense, wild empathy
2nd     +1           +3     +3     +3     Woodland stride
3rd     +1            +3     +3     +3     Trackless step
4th     +2           +4     +4     +4     Resist nature’s lure
5th     +2           +4     +4     +4     
6th     +3             +5     +5     +5     
7th     +3             +5     +5     +5     
8th     +4             +6     +6     +6     
9th     +4             +6     +6     +6    Venom immunity
10th    +5            +7     +7     +7     
11th    +5         +7     +7     +7     
12th    +6/+1         +8     +8     +8     
13th    +6/+1         +8     +8     +8     A thousand faces
14th    +7/+2         +9     +9     +9    
15th    +7/+2        +9     +9     +9     Timeless body
16th    +8/+3     +10    +10     +10     
17th    +8/+3     +10    +10     +10     
18th    +9/+4    +11    +11     +11     
19th    +9/+4     +11    +11     +11   
20th    +10/+5    +12    +12     +12
```
The listed special abilities are all as listed for the druid, except as noted below.

*Wildshape*
Does not exist.

*Spells*
A fey caster casts divine spells, which are drawn from the druid spell list.  He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).

To learn or cast a spell, a fey caster must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a fey caster's spell is 10 + the spell level + the fey caster's Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a fey caster can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is as given on Table: The CLERIC (in the SRD), EXCEPT that instead of having a domain spell slot, the fey caster's extra slot is reserved for _summon nature's ally_ spells (though the fey caster can still spontaneously cast such spells as a druid can). In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.

A fey caster's selection of spells is extremely limited. A fey caster knows spells as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known, EXCEPT the fey caster is treated for this purpose as one level higher than he actually is, and the fey caster automatically knows the [summon nature's ally[/i] chain of spells.  (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a fey caster knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the druid spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered fey caster level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a fey caster can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the fey caster "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level druid spell the fey caster can cast. A fey caster may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a fey caster need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast.[/sblock]


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## michael_noah (Feb 13, 2007)

I remembered the other reason (besides scrolls) that it matters whether a caster is divine or arcane.  It's really big, and has the word "arcane" in it.

Any guesses?


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## o3caudata (Feb 13, 2007)

arcane spell failure


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## o3caudata (Feb 13, 2007)

i dig the new class. it does seem pretty powerful.  definitely less powerful than the druid.  but still quite powerful.  i'm not particularly bothered by it being powerful, even if it's more powerful than the other options.....  but others might be...  I'd be interested to see how it works out, and i'm totally down with letting cochran play one.


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## michael_noah (Feb 13, 2007)

Correct.  I just talked to kurt, and the above is a divine caster, by choice of kurt.

Also, the "As druid" bit applies to the no metal armor rule, too.

Otherwise, I think this is just right (at least to start).


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## michael_noah (Mar 5, 2007)

Maybe start deciding what you want to do with all of this stuff.  This includes Boldak's and the stuff just found.

Goggles (of make see better)
Chainmail (+1) Viktor's wearing this
2 "rods" shatter (7))
2 "rods" (unseen servant(14)
Everburning torch
Ring (magic)
Pearl (of power... i mean magic)
shortsword (magic)
mwk leather
Lantern, hooded                
Oil, (1 pint flask), 6    
Tindertwig, 16
Trail rations, 5 days    
Alchemist's Fire
greataxe magic
Studded Leather
Shortsword
Dagger
Spiked Light Wooden Shield
Shortbow
Waterskin
Quiver - 8
Belt Pouch
chalk
Backpack
bedroll
- Thief's Tools
silk rope
- Trail Rations (4)
- Torch (2)
longsword masterwork
shortsword
guisarme masterwork
banded mail
light crossbow
wand
scroll
brooch
spellbook
cloak
silver ring
ruby
Potion (before)
Potion (before)
Potion (before)
Potion (boldak died)
Potion (boldak died)
Potion (boldak died)
Potion (boldak died)
Potion (boldak died)
Potion (boldak died)
Potion (boldak died)
Finger
7 Intricate Lanterns (hanging in the cairn)
Sculpting Tools
waterskin full of sludge

122g 8s 2c


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## TiCaudata (Mar 6, 2007)

well breth had plans for some of this stuff, I might just take the liberty that you guys fill Llyr in on the basics of everything we now have...


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## TiCaudata (Mar 9, 2007)

Selling stuff...

Goggles (of make see better)
Chainmail (+1) Viktor's wearing this
2 "rods" shatter (7))
2 "rods" (unseen servant(14)
Everburning torch
Ring (magic)
Pearl (of power... i mean magic)
shortsword (magic)
mwk leather (llyr took)
Tindertwig, 16
Trail rations, 9 days    
Alchemist's Fire
greataxe magic
silk rope
guisarme masterwork (MN will probably take eventually)
wand
scroll
brooch
spellbook
cloak
silver ring
ruby
Potion (before)
Potion (before)
Potion (before)
Potion (boldak died)
Potion (boldak died)
Potion (boldak died)
Potion (boldak died)
Potion (boldak died)
Potion (boldak died)
Potion (boldak died)
Finger
7 Intricate Lanterns (hanging in the cairn)
waterskin full of sludge

122g 8s 2c


Does that gold amount include what was taken from the dead and unconscious bodies this last time?  Is it supposed to be above and beyond what y'all have been taking after I keep dying?  Is it what Boldak had on him?


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## TiCaudata (Mar 9, 2007)

Studded Leather
Shortsword
Dagger
Spiked Light Wooden Shield
Shortbow
Waterskin
Quiver - 8
Belt Pouch
chalk
Backpack
bedroll
- Thief's Tools
- Torch (2)
longsword masterwork
shortsword
banded mail
light crossbow
Sculpting Tools
leather armor
hooded lantern
oil flasks (6)

is what we're selling, I figure this means we can get 4 things ID'd by allustan.  (maybe 5 if we pool in)


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## michael_noah (Mar 9, 2007)

what i said before said:
			
		

> This includes Boldak's and the stuff just found.




hee hee  i have to make the message 3 characters long.


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## michael_noah (Mar 9, 2007)

sold stuff, boldak money, and found money = 491.43

It's up to y'all how you're going to split/spend that, I would assume.  Leftovers, after selling and Cochran takes the leather, and gives the guisarme to Brannak:

Goggles (of make see better)
Chainmail (+1)
2 "rods" shatter (7)
2 "rods" unseen servant(14)
Everburning torch
Ring (magic)
Pearl (of power... i mean magic)
shortsword (magic)
Tindertwig, 16
Trail rations, 5 days    
Alchemist's Fire
greataxe (magic)
silk rope
- Trail Rations (4)
wand enfeeblement
scroll
brooch (magic)
spellbook
cloak (magic)
silver ring
ruby
Potion (before)
Potion (before)
Potion (before)
Potion (boldak died)
Potion (boldak died)
Potion (boldak died)
Potion (boldak died)
Potion (boldak died)
Potion (boldak died)
Potion (mage armor)
Finger
7 Intricate Lanterns (hanging in the cairn)
waterskin full of sludge


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## TiCaudata (Mar 9, 2007)

Llyr left the spellbook...

we sold the ring and ruby.

I am all for the Cloak, Brooch, and magic Ring getting ID'd first. (We get 3 a day)  The potion list should be up later this evening.


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## TiCaudata (Mar 15, 2007)

so how long until ENWorld catches onto Daylight Savings?  I'm pretty sure they were at least a week late last year too.  If it is operating off of the Vbulletin server we might just have to have the wrong times until the 25th.  grrrr for minor annoyances...


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## Dichotomy (Mar 15, 2007)

Well, I think it is actually correct for mine... though I'll check when I post this message...


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## Dichotomy (Mar 15, 2007)

Well, I think its almost a minute off...


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## TiCaudata (Mar 16, 2007)

As SOON as I went to the edit options page it fixed itself.


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## TiCaudata (Mar 20, 2007)

Is there any way to subscribe to threads other than making a meaningless post?


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## o3caudata (Mar 23, 2007)

Yes.  'thread tools' where you download the thread has a subscribe to this thread option.


Also,  i'm going to Cali on sunday, and i'll be gone for a week and a day. through at least thursday i should have reliable every day(or evening i suppose) internet access.  After that, it could be hit or miss, depending on the travel plans of my family etc.  In keeping with tradition, after thursday, if kurt or one of the others feels comfortable playing alexis, i'm ok with it too, in fact i'd prefer it to letting the game stagnate..


----------



## TiCaudata (Mar 27, 2007)

This is kind of dragging along here in my opinion.  I actually don't think it is really Di's fault either.  Maybe we should formulate a plan that involves what we want to do in a big holistic sense to make it easier on Di when he gets to a point where it is a choice between pushing us a little further than we have described or waiting a day for us all to post again.

Here is Llyr's general plan:  Travel through the passages in a logical fashion while trying to map out the area as best he can.  He will stay close to Kota who will stay close to Brannak.  If combat comes up he will assist in healing unless we look more out-gunned than we have to date, at which time he will cast a spell.

oh yeah, on an unrelated note my mouse doesn't suck so much anymore.


----------



## worthley (Mar 27, 2007)

Is it possible the mouse problem was operator related?


----------



## o3caudata (Mar 29, 2007)

no.

so i'm checking out of the hotel now, and that may mean no access or relatively intermitent.  if i get access, i'll jump back on and let you guys know how often etc, otherwise Di, feel free to take control.


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## Dichotomy (Apr 3, 2007)

o3caudata said:
			
		

> um.... wtf   why did dav leave? and why didn't the completely reasonable and generally cautious Alexis at the VERY least suggest that maybe someone should accompany him?  i'm just confused, was there some OC discussion off-board?  Are we quitting or something?



Well, I must have made an error.  Here's how I had been viewing the events in the IC thread:

Llyr suggested waiting to get an animal companion.  He also mentioned helping Dav search, but, I think I made it clear he couldn't, as he needed to be "uninterrupted" during the 24 hours.

Viktor concurred in resting.

Though he expressed that resting seemed odd, Brannak agreed at stated that he was taking first watch.

Dav then noted that he could search the halls (I took the cue from Ti's OOC post), but that he wasn't going to do it while next to death.

With that, Alexis and Llyr healed people up, having decided OOC that the group would be waiting until Alexis would have her spells back.  After being healed, Dav went to go comb the halls.

The error I must have made was likely two-fold I suppose.

First, despite the fact that Alexis was there, I didn't have her say anything about having Dav go off alone because I wanted to avoid using Alexis as a DM mouthpiece (the same reason why Dav himself didn't say anything).  Generally, I went under the assumption that, just as it appeared that Brannak saw no more threat in the labyrinth, Dav and Alexis could agree.

Second, I presumed from the fact that none of the players able to go with Dav (other than Alexis, as noted above) at the time had said anything about it, that no one would be going with him.  I thought that was correct, given the fact that Ti had explicitly mentioned it, but then could not do so.

I apologize for my error.  How should we fix it?


----------



## michael_noah (Apr 3, 2007)

I think I've realized my mistake here.  It seems that I gave the impression that Brannak thought there was nothing to worry about, and that no precautions needed to be taken.  This was clearly not the case, since he's not an idiot.  He also does whatever I tell him to do, so it's my fault.

The reason I did this, that is, rushed, didn't spell out exactly what he wanted to do, etc. is that I was under the impression that the "rest" period would be uneventful, and that spending a lot of time posting plans about it would be wasteful.  I think I thought this because we were talking about whether we would wait 24 full hours, using all our healing, that it would take Dav 15 hours to search everything, etc.  

What I suppose I should do in the future is try to recognize the fact that I am being subliminally influenced and counteract it.  What can't happen is that we can't assume that any time we formulate a long plan all will go well, or that any time the DM asks what we want to do next->something dangerous is on the horizon.

For this situation, I think two things should lead us to a solution.

1) We should not arbitrarilly save Dav (or... whatever, maybe he just snuck out with the diamonds).
2) While it was not obvious that we wanted an ingenious plan to constantly keep everyone in the party safe, it is obvious that the characters would have been somewhat intellegent about their movements, etc.

Solution: At some point, something happens... Either someone is close by and sees it happen, or someone is slightly less close by, and, within a few moments notices that Dav has stopped searching, and is instead scandalously manipulating the dead wolf.


----------



## o3caudata (Apr 3, 2007)

well, from my perspective it's silly for anyone to think that this place presents no more danger. we all witnessed the birdmen use secret doors to inflict sizable damage on us.  obviously i entrusted alexis to Di, and in doing so allowed him to play her as he saw fit.  The problem i see is that he simply disregarded her.  I understand the desire to avoid using her as a mouthpiece, and can obviously understand that having a dialogue between the NPC and pseudo-NPC is difficult and cumbersome.  So i certainly don't 'fault' Di for it.  I think it may evidence that we should consider not having Di play PC's if/when we are unable.  It creates more work and stress for him in maintaining a story, and in developing the plot.  Especially considering he's already responsible for a semi-permanent NPC.

I don't know that there's much to be done though.  I can tell you that i think, were i to have played alexis, she would have lobbied to keep us all together.  She had expressed reservations, on multiple occasions, about splitting up, and i think it's consistent with her past behavior that splitting up isn't something she would support.  It doesn't seem realistic to say... nevermind.... but it's frustrating, even more so if it leads to a delay in the game, because dav dies or something... which seems likely.... cause it's stupid to go out alone....


----------



## TiCaudata (Apr 3, 2007)

"Kota!  You Bastard!"  Llyr viciously turns on the rogue and starts stabbing him with... Wait, this is the OC thread...

Pointlessly saving Dav is indeed not a great idea.  Tough to know what we are going to do instead though since we now know that something is out there molesting corpses.  If the rest of you are out there checking up on him from time to time, we would get to know about where he was when the poopie hit the propeller, as well as anything he had found already, and how long Llyr is going to keep praying (as a side note, what kind of subterranean animals am I shooting for here so I can start thinking about making a new companion).  The other option involves someone being with him all the time right up until whatever happens happens...  Any volunteers?  You might get to make a new character!

For mechanics, we could just go back and edit the posts and pretend stuff happened differently.

That's all I got right now, I think someone beat me though...


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## o3caudata (Apr 3, 2007)

ok, so this is messy and screwed up.  my take is that Alexis would be with dav.  I totally understand Di's perspective, i think, and it's too bad that the ambiguity of the PC's wasn't ironed out before Dav took off. So, i guess i'll volunteer to be with Dav.  

If Di agrees that I would have had Alexis try to stop him and that she would have been successful, and is ok with it, we can rewind.  Again, it's easy for me to see why Di wouldn't have had Alexis say anything about it, so i don't fault him for it at all.


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## TiCaudata (Apr 3, 2007)

Well if o3 were to say "Alexis would have absolutely said XXX at this point." We could use that as a square one for a backtracking.  Is it messy?  You bet.  Does it work?  Kinda at best.  Is it 'metagaming'?  About equal or maybe slightly less than most other options I can think of.  I am pretty sure that we can all accomplish the mental exercise of saying "We don't know what is going to happen.".  Beyond that, Alexis saying that Dav shouldn't go ought to open dialog and potentially, the outcome of the whole topic.  

This does go against my earlier statement about saving Dav, but I see it more of us adjusting the outcome of a certain action.  It's like we are all Scott Bakkula or something, maybe the paradox will just eat us alive.  Wait, that's Mage.

Across the board though I guess if I am going to get impatient about a slow pace, I ought to get better about trying to lay out a plan.  This time it was extra weird since Llyr is praying and that's his plan more or less regardless.  I suppose if Alexis was to raise a stink about that too, we could all just explore while Dav searches.  Or we could all just wait for the praying and then all search.  Tough on the timeline, but not so bad on the logistics.

So is a hard reboot since the perfunctory search feasible?  Anyone have other ideas?


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## worthley (Apr 3, 2007)

I say we just go with Dav starting without us as we were resting, and then whatever happened happened.  We pick up where we are now, with Dav gone for a long time, and Llyr still praying.  Alexis, knowing it would have been stupid to take off like that thinks it's best to wait for everyone else to be ready, as there is nothing we could do to save Dav, after being gone this long.

I think this doesn't step on anyone's toes, and we don't go backwards for a few days.


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## worthley (Apr 3, 2007)

On a slightly related not, I also think that we need to decide that we either need to stop playing while someone is knowingly unable to post for extended periods, or just accept whatever happens, even if you disagree with the decisions that you character made while you're gone.  I know I have asked Di to take over my character a few times already, and I don't think it's fair for him to have to think what I would want my character to do, while running the game and an NPC.  I think letting another player run a character would be a better option, as it's less of a burden for a player to take up another character.  I am not trying to say that O3 is to blame for this situation.  I know he was on a work trip for more than a week with limited access.  That's not his fault.  I'm just asying that we need to make a decision so this doesn't happen again.


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## michael_noah (Apr 4, 2007)

I'm ok with anything, really.

I do think though, that even if we do not undo anything, the party is still going to be aware of Dav's absence with, say, 10 minutes of anything happening.  He has no reason not to periodically check in, and we have no reason not to periodically holler at him, etc.  So yeah.  Not a long time.


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## Dichotomy (Apr 4, 2007)

Okay.  I've been thinking about it quite a bit.  I think we should retroactively just say that Alexis went with Dav.  It is going to change what did/will happen.  I think we can cope, and this makes it easier.  I made a mistake, and I hope to avoid repeating it.  Having in-game consequences on you guys and, most likely, grinding the action to a halt for a least a couple of days real-time is not the appropriate response to my mistake.  Alexis would have gone with Dav, so let's just say that she did.

That being said, I'm making a new post in the IC thread, but I'm sblocking it.  I presume that at least some of you won't see this message until I'm at work and can't post.  So, tomorrow morning after all of you check THIS post, if you agree with my solution, confirm that with the others.  THEN read the sblocked post in the IC thread, respond, and edit out the intermediate posts.


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## TiCaudata (Apr 4, 2007)

Sounds good to me.  I didn't even read backwards like I am aught to do.


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## michael_noah (Apr 4, 2007)

like i said, that's fine.


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## worthley (Apr 4, 2007)

works for me


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## o3caudata (Apr 4, 2007)

aye.


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## michael_noah (Apr 4, 2007)

see, now that we have all concurred, it would be advisable to continue with the rest of kurt's instructions, and read the stuff.

unless you already did...


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## o3caudata (Apr 13, 2007)

*T P K !!!!*​


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## o3caudata (Apr 25, 2007)

Eskard likes plums.


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## michael_noah (Apr 25, 2007)

Kushnak likes his sword.


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## TiCaudata (Apr 30, 2007)

Erdolliel stands about 5'5" tall and is rather swarthy for an elf weighing in at about 140 lbs of solid muscle.  She has a longsword sheathed at her right hip, a dagger visible at her left hip, a buckler is attached to her right forearm, and a longbow slung across her back.  No stranger to travelling, she has a bulging park with a bedroll secured to the bottom of it.  Her black hair is cropped to just above her shoulders framing a pale face with a serious set to it.  Her silver eyes are constantly calculating one thing or another, and she walks as though she is constantly ready to strike.


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## TiCaudata (Jun 15, 2007)

I'm heading up to Duluth to watch Nordberg, Jesse, and another friend run Grandma's, so I won't be posting until Sat night at the earliest.  With Dad's day it might be later even.

Also, on the morning of the 22nd I am flying to NYC for a wedding, and staying in DC for the next week for fun.  I'll probably be able to get in once a day for posting during that time, but no promises...


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## o3caudata (Jun 20, 2007)

I think that you should be allowed to draw OR sheath a weapon as part of a move action.  Double move = 2 draw or sheathes.

It might also be cool if there was a feat to let you do both even....maybe....


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## Dichotomy (Jun 20, 2007)

I'm not sure whether you were being sarcastic, but there sorta IS such a feat.  If we assume that it is okay to sheath a weapon while moving (which, I think, we've just sorta made up), then you could, after finishing the move, use quickdraw to draw a weapon and attack.


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## michael_noah (Jun 20, 2007)

Also, since TWF allows you to draw two weapons as part of a move, it should allow you to sheath two  - or draw one and sheathe another.


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## Dichotomy (Jun 21, 2007)

worthley in the IC thread said:
			
		

> ready to shoot the cleric with scorching ray if he casts a spell, or after he acts



I know we've had issues with the ready action before.  I don't think I like this.  I decided I'd go ahead, since I know the cleric would be casting, but perhaps we should talk about this so it is not an issue later.

Thoughts?


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## worthley (Jun 21, 2007)

fixed the problem on my own.  As I was the only one to not understand the problem with my post, I don't think it will be a problem


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## Dichotomy (Jul 2, 2007)

FYI, the Apple Store people confirmed that my RAM has issues.  They were INSANELY busy today, so they didn't have time to put test RAM in.  Long story short, they took my laptop.  If they find that its my extra RAM that's bad, they replace it, and I get my laptop back right away.  If its the RAM on the logic board, they have to send it off, and I wait up to 10 days.

So, as my maps and crap are on the laptop, for now I'm just gonna put the game on hold a day.  If, however, it turns out that they have to send it off, we'll talk about what to do in the interim.


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## Dichotomy (Jul 17, 2007)

worthley and I have talked a bit about the spellbook thing.  Basic issue: the rules as written seem just plain dumb.

For reference:[sblock=The RAW (slightly edited)]







			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Arcane Magical Writings
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...



[/sblock]
Summary: Bazrim has new spellbooks.  They are not "his," rather, they are "borrowed," even though he owns them now.  Under the RAW, he must:
1) Either make a DC 20 + spell level spellcraft check or use read magic to decipher the spellbooks (he already did this, using read magic);
2) Spend an entire day (for each spell) studying it, then make another spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level) to "understand" the spell;
3) Spend an entire day (again) and use up 1 page per spell level (at a cost of 100 gp each page) actually writing the spell in his spellbook.

Note that I copied the rules regarding preparing spells from "borrowed" spellbooks.  However, note the first sentence in the section: "A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she _already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook_ [...]" (emphasis supplied).  I actually missed that the first time I read it.  So, under the RAW, Bazrim can't treat these as "borrowed" spellbooks at all (unless he happens to know some of the spells in them, but that's not much use).  Even if it did apply, it would require daily spellcraft checks.

So, while m_n was exaggerating, the point is well taken.  I think that m_n and I had once upon a time designed some houseruled fix that we liked, however, I don't recall any details about it.

What do you guys think?  Is it a problem, or do you think the RAW is fine?  Any proposals for fixing it?


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## michael_noah (Jul 18, 2007)

I believe the RAW is unworkable, and no wizards would ever learn any spells if this were the case.

What I think we decided was something very close to:

1)Read magic as normal.
2)1 hour per spell level to learn a spell.
3)Once you know a spell, you can prepare it from a spellbook.
4)Copying a spell to a different spell book costs as much as it normally would.
5)There is no difference between your spellbook and someone else's spellbook.  

A reason, and often a very good one, you would still wish to copy spells into one single book is that otherwise you have to cart around like 5 books (which should probably have some weight or something).


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## o3caudata (Jul 18, 2007)

I like that some.  There should probably be some tie to level/int mod/current spell level available.  IE: it should be really really really hard for wes to copy gate.  Maybe?  I guess i'm not SURE how read magic works....


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## michael_noah (Jul 18, 2007)

Oh, learning the spell follows the same rules as normal, too.  Roll is the same, if you fail you can't try again until whenever it is, etc.


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## TiCaudata (Jul 18, 2007)

I really don't understand the problem with the rule as written.  It looks to me that the rule is designed to be prohibitive to both low level players and to players on the move during an adventure.  The wizard class is supposed to be a class that is constantly studying and gains power through that knowledge.  This might be one of the few rules that actually makes sense to me.

A spellcraft 15+ check is nothing for a higher level wizard, but might stop a lower level one from copying a spell too powerful for them to know.  Likewise with the gold cost.  At most a spell costs 900 gold to transfer, when you have 15k who cares?  It's the price of knowledge.  If you want a caster that can advance quickly whenever they are exposed to a new spell, be a sorc.

If I'm missing something here, let me know.


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## michael_noah (Jul 18, 2007)

Wizards are already hosed just because they need a spellbook.  Clerics/Druids just get to know every spell for free.  Sorcerers don't need a book.

Even if it were to take the extra time, I still think one should be able to cast from a found book.


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## TiCaudata (Jul 18, 2007)

I can see that argument only if the wizard spends a SERIOUS amount of time studying the book the first time and then more than usual each additional time.  I supposed you could also cast read magic everyday before studying.  Some of the language that Di omitted talks about each wizard having a different writing style.  I see it as analogous with a big group of cryptographers, each one has their own code and you have to work at breaking the code before you can use another guy's notes.  Even if you broke it before, you have to spend time re-familiarizing yourself with the code. 

If you want to cast from another's spell book after you decipher their style (which you would only have to do once), I think it would mean that you have to spend some additional amount of time as a part of your daily studying, maybe another hour.  Most of the time this added time would be absorbed in the daily resting anyway, so it shouldn't be too onerous of a time commitment.  However, if it's a time crunch situation, the wizard might just have to deal with not being able to use someone else's spellbook.

If you just want to cast read magic everyday, that would work too I suppose.

How's that sound?


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## worthley (Jul 18, 2007)

So, I have been thinking about this for a while, but I am really tired, so this might just come out as ramblings.  Personally I think that what M_N proposed is better than the RAW.  The RAW basically makes spellbooks you find useless.  It also means that when a party reaches level 5, 7, 9, etc. they sit around for a few weeks, or go find a new wizard, because he has to go study new spells so he can do more than Summon Monster X.  That becomes detremental to the whole roleplaying experience.  I do have some suggestions to adjusting of M_N's list of rules.

1)Read magic as normal. 
     Works for me

2)1 hour per spell level to learn a spell.
     I think this might be too little of time.  I also think that 1 day/spell is stupid.  I suggest it takes something like 1/spell level hours, with a minimum of 3 hours.  I think that we could split that time up, but for every "studying session" you make the spellcraft check.  Max of 8 hours/day studying.  I think this creates a better balance of level to time.

3)Once you know a spell, you can prepare it from a spellbook.
     Add, that you have already used read magic or whatever

4)Copying a spell to a different spell book costs as much as it normally would.
     OK with that

5)There is no difference between your spellbook and someone else's spellbook.
     Outside of the whole read magic thing, ok

6)spellcraft checks stuff
     I say that you first decide how long you want to study for.  At the end of that time, you make your check, if you fail, you just lose that time.  I'm all for saying that you must study in 1 hour incriments.  That prevents from making it into 5 minute sessions, and having to make tons of checks to try and 'save time'

Please remember that if something doesn't make sence, I am really tired right now, and just ask me to clarify.


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## o3caudata (Jul 18, 2007)

I think the RAW are stupid too.  I like m_n's ideas, but I would suggest these amendments:

1)Read magic as normal.

[none]

2)1 hour per spell level to learn a spell.

[tie it to caster level/int mod/spellcraft and in some way cap it?  For instance i think an 18th level wizard should be able to copy a 2nd level spell from a 4th level wizards spellbook MUCH easier than another 4th level wizard would be able to.]

3)Once you know a spell, you can prepare it from a spellbook.

[i'd change it to: once you know how to cast a spell from a specific spellbook, you know it.  I'm sorta agreeing with Ti here, that there's some 'personality' to the writing, that requires study. so if you spend the time to learn a spell from a specific spell book, you can always and forever prepare from THAT spellbook.]

4)Copying a spell to a different spell book costs as much as it normally would.

[agreed.]

5)There is no difference between your spellbook and someone else's spellbook.

[only that you know all the spells in your spellbook, and you only know the one's you've taken the time to learn in the other.   ]


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## TiCaudata (Jul 18, 2007)

Alright, since the big trend is to copy the list and annotate, I guess I'm gonna do it too.

I think the RAW make sense:

1)Read magic as normal.

[why do we comment on things that aren't changed?]

2)1 hour per spell level to learn a spell.

[I still think that the notion that making everyone wait 2 days for the wizard to learn the spell is perfectly ok.  Wizards have power because they study and spend time doing it.  The notion that our characters might have gone from clueless hayseeds to seasoned warriors in 20 days is more than a little ludicrous.  Having to write that we wait 3 days to tie up odds and ends and let our various casters prepare for the next battle however they do it (by studying spells, making potions, whatever) wouldn't take any additional effort or real-world time to complete.  

That being said, I like o3's idea to a limit.  It should still take the 18th level wizard a fair bit of time to learn a new style of writing, especially if everyone's style is completely different.

Also I'd like to flip the perspective around a little.  Learning a 9th level spell in a day is a steal at any price.  If we want to lower the time for low level spells I think we need to raise it for high level spells.  Averaging them out doesn't seem to be that bad of an idea to me.  Maybe we need a complicated algorithm to solve for time needed to learn a spell though.  (That sounds like a jab, but I like complicated algorithms at least half of the time.)]

3)Once you know a spell, you can prepare it from a spellbook.

[oddly enough I think this is fine with o3's changes.  Read magic should NOT count the same as studying a writing style though.  Read magic just makes the funny looking words on the page make sense for X amount of time, it doesn't make you able to comprehend the writing later.]

4)Copying a spell to a different spell book costs as much as it normally would.

[Are you guy's talking about striking the whole "wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells"?  Because if you are... OF COURSE it shouldn't apply to stolen or spoils spellbooks.  I suppose you could pay the wizard a fee, but then just take the money right off his corpse again.  Just because the closest applicable rule is that you are borrowing the spellbook doesn't mean you are actually borrowing the spellbook.]

5)There is no difference between your spellbook and someone else's spellbook.

[o3 sums this up pretty well.]


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## michael_noah (Jul 18, 2007)

EDITS!

I think maybe I misremembered what we had done before?  Deciphering a spell doesn't actually take any time.  Only writing it in a book takes time.  Even preparing from a borrowed book takes time.  Huh...

1)We all agree here.

2)But see, it isn't just writing that we wait 3 days to tie up loose ends.  Say, look at our current situation.  To be more extreme, what if we're all adventuring at level 16, and we level up.  Yay!  except for wes.  he gets nothing.  We could wait around for him, but then the bad guy will have already won.  Sucks to be Wes.  See?

I agree completely that the flavor of the wizard is that he's all boring and crappy and spends all his time reading books.  That just doesn't work with the rest of the world, like the clerics who are awesome and exciting and go around kicking ass.

3)Meh

4)I was just noting that we weren't changing this rule.  I think it's important to note which parts we're not changing.  I think we all agreed on this?  (there's more to it than paying a wizard to copy, you actually have to pay to write it in your book)  I do think, though, that we changed this time requirement to also be 1 hour/level.

5)Right, I just mean that it shouldn't be an additional check every single time.


Additional notes:

According to the RAW, you can't even cast a spell from a "borrowed" book unless you have it written in "your" book.  First, this is dumb.  Second, it makes no difference from a player wealth perspective.  By the RAW, found spellbooks are worth exactly 0.  After you spend gold, then your spellbook is worth more.  Then the DM has to give you more treasure.  Why not just have the spellbook you found be worth gold in the first place?

Secondly, even though you can't cast a spell from a "borrowed" book, you can understand it well enough that you can write it in "your" book (this is the coppying procedure).  This makes no sense.

The RAW time to write a 9th level spell in a book is 1 day.  This is essentially the same as 9 hours, since you also have to rest 8, etc, so we're barely changing high level spells at all - we're just making low level ones easier.

The way that it is easier for high level casters to do stuff is the Spellcraft check.  If a wizard fails the check, they can't try again until the next day.  I don't think we need to penalize low level wizards more than that by making it slower.


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## worthley (Jul 19, 2007)

I have a proposed sliding scale for time of 'learning' spells and for adjusting the Spellcraft check.  Here it is.  For time start with 4 hours.  That is how long it takes to learn a spell that is of the max spell level you are able to cast.  Take the spell level of the spell you are trying to learn and get the difference of that and your current max spell level.  Apply that to the base 4 hours, to get the time.  Apply the same theory to the DC of the spellcraft check for each spell, using 15 as the base.

Example:  If Bazrim (level 4) wants to learn lighting bolt (level 3) it would take 5 hours with a DC of 16.

This is just and idea.


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## worthley (Jul 19, 2007)

Just came up with the idea that maybe we should have it more like the leveling.  So, 1 level away is +/-1, 2 levels away is +/-3, 3 levels away is +/-6, etc.


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## michael_noah (Jul 19, 2007)

I think this is all way to complicated, and doesn't matter.  I mean, there's already the spellcraft check.  Also, who cares if you learn a spell you can't cast?  If that's your choice, you'll just hold onto the book/scroll until you can cast it.


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## TiCaudata (Jul 19, 2007)

michael_noah said:
			
		

> 2)But see, it isn't just writing that we wait 3 days to tie up loose ends.  Say, look at our current situation.  To be more extreme, what if we're all adventuring at level 16, and we level up.  Yay!  except for wes.  he gets nothing.  We could wait around for him, but then the bad guy will have already won.  Sucks to be Wes.  See?




nope I don't see.  We never level up until there is a story break ANYWAY, so there would be time to get new spells.  Hmm, that time when we first beat the first branch of the cult is a counter example.  Can you pre-copy spells into your book?  I seem to think that the practice is not prohibited.  If you can, you should be able to have at least one new spell one level higher than you are ready to go when you level up.  By writing it down before hand, the time lag is removed for the rare cases where you need to kill the baddie the next day.


I think we are agreeing on alot of the rest.  I agree that once you have deciphered a text with the spellcraft thing you should be able to have access to the spells in a book that you completely control.  I think the RAW rule was trying to keep a situation where there are a couple wizards in a party, and they just put different spells in their books thereby having twice as many spells as they "should".

Additional notes:


			
				MN said:
			
		

> By the RAW, found spellbooks are worth exactly 0.  After you spend gold, then your spellbook is worth more.



  No, they are worth 50 gp a page, the same as after you copy what spells you want and sell it.  

It makes COMPLETE sense that something you physically wrote would take less time to read and study than something someone else did.  Reading my handwriting should be proof enough for that, and I'm not even using a "for my eyes only" magical script.



			
				MN said:
			
		

> The RAW time to write a 9th level spell in a book is 1 day.  This is essentially the same as 9 hours, since you also have to rest 8, etc, so we're barely changing high level spells at all - we're just making low level ones easier.
> 
> The way that it is easier for high level casters to do stuff is the Spellcraft check.  If a wizard fails the check, they can't try again until the next day.  I don't think we need to penalize low level wizards more than that by making it slower.




Who says you have to rest etc etc?  A dedicated person pursuing knowledge would totally be willing to spend 16 at least.  However, I think that worthley's idea might be sound, but that the base time should be at least 8 hours.  It makessense that a level one character should take a similar amount of effort to scribe a lvl 1 spell as a lvl 17 wizard would take to write a 9th lvl spell.  Spells of a lower level should take less time, higher levels (if possible) should take more.  One hour per level of spell lower would probably make sense.  For higher level spells I think the scale should be more severe.


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## Dichotomy (Jul 19, 2007)

WHEEEEE!

So, as much for my benefit as anything else, a reiteration of the RAW:
1) Either make a DC 20 + spell level spellcraft check or use read magic to decipher the spellbooks (he already did this, using read magic);
        * Failure on this spellcraft check means you have to wait until the next day
2) Spend an entire day (for each spell) studying it, then make another spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level) to "understand" the spell;
        * Failure on this spellcraft check means you can't "understand or copy" the spell; you can't try again until you get another rank in spellcraft (GAH!)
3) Spend an entire day (again) and use up 1 page per spell level (at a cost of 100 gp each page) actually writing the spell in his spellbook.
        * This, as noted by m_n, is the copying cost and does not include the "borrowing fee"

Next, the points that have been raised:

2) Amount of time to "understand" spells (copying is addressed later)
I think people are talking by each other.  In particular, m_n is discussing the issue from the alternative perspectives that (a) the characters would not have the ability/inclination to spend the time; and (b) as a matter of game balance, it doesn't work.  Ti is discussing the issue from the alternative perspectives that (a) it makes no sense that stuff (learning spells, leveling up, etc.) all moves so fast in terms of game time; and (b) the nature of wizards, the concept of personalized writing, and such.  So, let's try to get on the same page.  I'll try to help narrow things.

First, Ti is correct that (at least under some conceptualizations) wizards study/are bookworms/etc.  I think m_n acknowledged it as true and dismissed it.  I agree.  Obviously classes are modeled upon concepts, but, at the end of the day, there IS a gamist element here (at least there is in the way that our group has nearly always roleplayed).  Unless we want to shift the paradigm of our playstyle, I think these considerations (I tried to think of a good label, but failed) are secondary.

Second, both perspectives that I labeled "(a)" are related, but not the same.  Regarding the speed in-game that things progress, I want to note that, while it does seem interesting for a party (various versions of the party) to go from 1st level to 4th level in under 20 days seems conceptually odd, the only ways to avoid that are to either put more in-game time in between encounters or to make encounters worth less XP (so that you progress more slowly).  At this point, I'm going to limit my comments regarding these two solutions.  Suffice to say, there are certain points (at the end of story arcs, for example) when it is very possible to "build in" downtime.  The question then, as related to the "(a)" perspectives, is whether such downtime is sufficient to accommodate learning spells as dictated by the RAW.  So, I think this is one of the questions we need to ask in attempting to resolve this issue.

Third, the resolution of this issue DOES affect game balance.  However, I think it is relatively minor.

3) The concept of "borrowed" spellbooks [#3 and #5 are, in fact, completely redundant, so I've repackaged it]
There seems to be universal agreement that a wizard should be able to do SOMETHING that makes him able to use a spellbook which the RAW would call "borrowed" as if it were "owned."  There, however, seems to be some measure of disagreement as to what that should entail.  Possible proposals include:
        * If you have used _read magic_ and/or deciphered the spell in that particular book (as outlined in my reiteration of the RAW #1), you can treat the book as "owned" as related to that spell
        * If you have learned/understood the spell (reiteration of the RAW #2) the spell in that particular book, you can treat the book as "owned" as related to that spell
        * If you spend more time for spell preparation, you can treat the book as "owned"
        * Some combination of the above
        * The concept of "borrowed" spellbooks ceases to exist; if you are in possession of a spellbook and you know the spell in it, you can prepare it from that book

In addition to giving that helpful layout of the proposals, I'd like to reiterate the RAW on this subject:
        * Decipher the writing (reiteration of the RAW #1; you only need to do this once for a particular spell in a particular book) AND
        * Spellcraft check DC 15 + spell level (this check must be done every time you prepare the spell; failure means you can't prepare it that day)

Is there one of these solutions (or some other one) that you all prefer?  The discussion on this specific issue has been fairly vague.  I'm hoping that by cementing it as I did, we can more easily decide what we like.

4) The actual copying costs 100 gp per page
There seems to be no qualms about this.  I would just note that the gold amount is relatively small and, as you increase in level, the burden of the gold amount becomes _de minimus_.  I'd also note that, depending upon the resolution of the concept of "borrowed" spellbooks, this cost could further lessen (or vanish all together).  So, I don't think this is really so much an issue now.

However, lurking in this issue, is the TIME it takes to copy.  I think it is identical in concept with the time issue outlined in #2 with the exception already noted (resolution of the "borrowed" spellbook issue may drastically lessen the time impact for copying).

SUMMARY:
* On the issue of time to "understand" spells, I think we need to focus the discussion, particularly to the issue of whether the kind of downtime that can relatively easily be factored in would be enough.  This is merely my understanding; please bring up other considerations, or reconsiderations if you think I inappropriately dismissed some.
* On the issue of "borrowed" spellbooks, we should look at the list of proposals and pick one (or add more, if needed).
* On the issue of actually copying of spells, the monetary considerations are not likely worth the effort to change.  The time considerations should be considered in the same matter that we consider the time to "understand" spells, with the knowledge that resolution of the "borrowed" spellbooks issue could reduce or eliminate this issue to a large extent.


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## worthley (Jul 19, 2007)

I hate pouring gas on this fire, but I have several spellbooks, some of those have doubled up spells.  Are spells with the same name in different books considered as the same or different spells when it comes to missing my spellcraft check?


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## TiCaudata (Jul 19, 2007)

Gas is good.  They would be COMPLETELY different checks.

I'm willing to give on the one hour per spell level for copying issue.  Definitely for writing, iffy for understanding the spell as well.  I do still like the notion presented by worthley of a scale for the time required to understand the spell.  It seems like it would be simple enough to establish and it would make low level spells way easy to copy for for high level wizards.  I believe that I would be ok with comprehending a spellbook "style" and allowing the wizard to prepare from that book for something simple like 2 hours of preparation instead of the normal 1.  That should still be accommodating for the impatient as well as useful for the rare case of needing the spell NOW.

Something I just (re?)noticed in re-re-re-reading the section is that you can already cast from an acquired spellbook by passing a dc 15 spellcraft.  at level 4 that means rolling higher than a 7, that's not unwieldy.  Ah, it's only for 'known' spells.  Interesting.  In this specific instance, worthley could reasonably guess that his opponent has lightning and fireball both in the spell book and make them his known spells whenever y'all gain the level.  That would probably effectively work in most situations where we would acquire a spellbook and need the spells right away.


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## Dichotomy (Jul 19, 2007)

I'll be brief, because I don't have much time right now.

First, I talked to worthley a bit via chat about this already.  As far as his question is concerned, it may depend upon how we resolve the other issues on the table.  It may also depend upon WHICH spellcraft check we are discussing.  (Perhaps you'd get different checks for preparing but not for learning or somesuch.)

Second, Ti's "concession" and comments in his last post discuss the mechanics, but I still think we need to address issues BEHIND the mechanics.  The issues (as I see them anyway) have little to do with what level of spell is being learned/copied.

Third, that bit about guessing what spell to learn simply doesn't work (as I read it).  If Bazrim DID guess the guy had fireball, and then DID choose to make that his learned spell upon leveling up, it would ALREADY be in his own spellbook (because the spells a wizard auto-learns upon leveling up are also automatically in his spellbook; he doesn't need to spend the time/gold copying them).


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## TiCaudata (Jul 19, 2007)

srd said:
			
		

> Spells Gained at a New Level
> 
> Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels she can cast. If she has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from her specialty school.



I read this (particularly the part "...to add to her spellbook.") as meaning that it still has to be written in under RAW as opposed to automatically appears in the book.  If that interpretation is mistaken that's fine.


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## worthley (Jul 19, 2007)

My understanding is that when you gain a level 2 spells 'magically appear' in your spellbook.  This is similar to what happens when a fighter takes a level of wizard.  (insert oots comic here)  It is just assumed that in your character's down time, they have been studying how to make that spell, and doing the necessary research.  That downtime comes from the hours that are spent around the camp fire after travelling but before sleeping, not days staring at a book.  The new level just marks the time that all those little bits of studying and such finally pay off.


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## Dichotomy (Jul 19, 2007)

I believe that worthley is correct, both as to the "spirit" of the rule and as to the text.  I believe that the adjective "free" lends itself to that conclusion.  I believe this interpretation is further corroborated by that which is absent.  In the paragraph after the one Ti quoted, it speaks about copying spells, lists the stuff you have to do (as outlined before), and goes on to say "If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below)."  This text is not in the section about the "free" spells.  I certainly admit that the interpretation worthley and I share is NOT a necessary interpretation of the rules, and that Ti's interpretation is quite plausible.  Maybe they should hire lawyers to edit the rules for them.    

All that said, this specific point of the discussion (whether "free" spells have to be written into one's spellbook or not) is tangential.

To return to the main issue at hand, based upon chat conversations I've had, it would appear to me that no one wants to talk about the issues in the manner that I have attempted to lay out.  If that is incorrect, let me know.  Unless someone wants the discussion to continue (I personally would like to continue it, because I would like to resolve it), I propose that we continue to use the RAW, despite the misgivings about them.


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## worthley (Jul 19, 2007)

I am 100% for making changes to the rules about learning spells, spellbooks and such.  I am also 100% against completely stoping the game while we figure this out.  As I am the only one that is currently effected by this.  I have no problem with keeping the game going, and once we have a solution, saying that Bazrim did whatever he could to during this down time.

I will post a proposed solution later today or tomorrow.


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## TiCaudata (Jul 19, 2007)

Well I don't believe that RAW is unworkable, only inconvenient.  Alright, that's not ENTIRELY true, I can't really deny that a 3 day minimum time frame for a level 1 spell is sucky.  I think that in our current situation it works well enough since worthley won't be leveling up anyway.

A not sucky situation might be something along the lines of: 
   - Spellcraft 20 (or read magic) to decifer writing (not sure of timeline, I don't think 1 day is unreasonable though)
     ((decifering by spellcraft should only have to happen once per wizard rather than once per spell))
   - Spellcraft 15 +/- level difference of the spell over the spells level of hours
     (e.g. if he was trying to understand a 4th lvl spell it would be spellcraft 16 and take 4 hours)
     ((I don't particularly like how that works for the spellcraft check, harder spells should be MUCH harder))
   - One hour per spell level to copy the spell.

I think this minimizes most of the time issues without horribly reducing the playablilty of the system.  I don't think that 2 days is a bad amount of time for copying a 4th level spell or 4 1st level spells


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## Dichotomy (Jul 19, 2007)

TiCaudata said:
			
		

> A not sucky situation might be something along the lines of:
> - Spellcraft 20 (or read magic) to decifer writing (not sure of timeline, I don't think 1 day is unreasonable though)



While the rules are not explicit on the amount of time, I don't believe that, by the RAW, it takes any appreciable amount of time now to do the deciphering.  Are you suggesting that we should change that to make it take a day?


> ((decifering by spellcraft should only have to happen once per wizard rather than once per spell))



I have no idea what this means.


> - Spellcraft 15 +/- level difference of the spell over the spells level of hours
> (e.g. if he was trying to understand a 4th lvl spell it would be spellcraft 16 and take 4 hours)
> ((I don't particularly like how that works for the spellcraft check, harder spells should be MUCH harder))



I don't think I understand your equation.  Did I miss something?


> - One hour per spell level to copy the spell.



I don't have anything in particular to say about this proposed solution.

As a general comment, you (meaning Ti) seem to agree with at least the underlying premise that it takes too long to learn spells.  Your solution, to the extent that I can understand it, would tie the amount of time that it takes to learn spells to the complexity of the spell (as measured by spell level).  However, I think that this solution doesn't hit the real issue.  I'm going to guess that I just wrote too much before, so I'm now just going to plainly ask:

Given that there are certain points (at the end of story arcs, for example) when it is very possible to "build in" downtime, is such downtime sufficient to accommodate learning spells as dictated by the RAW?


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## TiCaudata (Jul 19, 2007)

Dichotomy said:
			
		

> While the rules are not explicit on the amount of time, I don't believe that, by the RAW, it takes any appreciable amount of time now to do the deciphering.  Are you suggesting that we should change that to make it take a day?



huh, I've been looking at that part wrong this whole time.  You guys mean to tell me that you think 2 days is completely too much time to learn a spell from a complete stranger's unreadable text?



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in written form in another’s spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell’s level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day.



 The use of the words "that particular spell" implies that you would have to do it for each spell.  That's kind of silly, once you can decipher the writing of a particular wizard you should be able to always decipher it.  This is less of an issue with decifering being a timeless check


I am trying to tie the difficulty of the spell into the amount of time it takes to learn it because of the overwhelming feedback saying that such a system might be desirable.  I am also trying to simplify the equation required for linking spell difficulty with the amount of time required to learn it.  Maybe if I try using something closer to mathematical formulas.

(In order for a wizard to copy a given spell they must)=(Pass a spellcraft check of a DC 15 +/- the difference between the level of the spell to be copied and the highest level spell the wizard can cast) AND (Spend the amount of time equal to the spell level to study the spell)

Of course, if the answer to my (much) earlier question about whether spells higher than a wizard can cast can be copied into their spellbook is "no" you can forget the '+' part of '+/-'.


Finally. Yes, I have been saying all along that I think there is more than ample enough time to cover all of the RAW flaws of learning new spells in the missed downtime between 'phases' of the adventure.  I also think that the notion that if we can't learn spells super quickly we will die because the very next day we would absolutely need the spells is not actually that common of an occurrence.


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## michael_noah (Jul 20, 2007)

TiCaudata said:
			
		

> huh, I've been looking at that part wrong this whole time.  You guys mean to tell me that you think 2 days is completely too much time to learn a spell from a complete stranger's unreadable text?




No, I think that magic is made-up, and I think DnD is supposed to be fun, and I think that any game that teases you by telling you you can do something but then says, "Oops, not yet!" is not fun (or at least that portion of it is not fun).


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## o3caudata (Jul 20, 2007)

I really don't think anyone has said it's too long to understand the complete strangers unreadable text.  

I *think* we're saying that the MECHANIC doesn't fit in with the game.  The wizard is the ONLY character that has this problem.

I also *think* that Ti's point can be connected to the fact that all the classes ACTUALLY have those delays, but we just take them in stride.  Like feats/skills/etc.  We don't make a point of saying 'I practice jumping'. (Which could easily be resolved by ROLE-PLAYING more, rather than waiting for the next battle.... the stupid barbarian says...)  The disconnect i see is that there aren't rules mandating that kind of activity, but there are for the wizard in this task. I agree with Ti, to the point that it's better to encourage more role-playing dialog and non-combat events than modifying the game to fit a fast-paced combat environment.  Remember when we used to say, "Why not just play a video game?"

The RAW for the spell goo are, at the very least, inconvenient with the pace of game we normally play.  GENERALLY, i think, we encounter this situation(needing to copy spells) at a place where we are afforded time(re-supply runs, etc etc) and that doesn't require the modification of the pace or story line to include the RAW.  Right now, and perhaps at some other point in the future, that isn't/may not be the case.  I am by no means against saying, we accept that it just TAKES TIME to learn spells, but if we say that, i think we should commit to playing that time out better than we normally do.  What i don't want, is to say, whatever lets ignore the RAW, you get the spells and lets keep playing....(Even as much as i want to just get back to playing.)

I'm not sure that clears anything up.

Essentially.  I am ok with RAW, as long as Di(and everyone but Ti) is ok NOT just glossing over the time it takes.  But if we're going to change it, I think Di should take the ideas that are out there, pick what he thinks corresponds to HIS game, and we can complain AFTER.......

i'd rather be playing.


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## worthley (Jul 20, 2007)

So, I think we need to solve one problem at a time, instead of talking about everything at once, and getting confused.  Hopefully this will make the process move smoothly.  So, I am going to start with the problem I had to begin with.

I think it is incredibly stupid that a wizard has to copy a spell from a spellbook he now owns.  I suggest that a wizard goes through all the steps for copying a spell from a borrowed spellbook, including spending the time it would take to copy a spell from a spellbook, but just not actually spend the money on copying the spell.  After that, the wizard will be able to treat that spell in that spellbook as if they copied that spell into their own spellbook.


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## michael_noah (Jul 20, 2007)

o3caudata said:
			
		

> I also *think* that Ti's point can be connected to the fact that all the classes ACTUALLY have those delays, but we just take them in stride.



What other character needs to wait to use a new feat?  The only thing wizards have in common with regard to spells is the 2 free ones.  Those magically show up like feats and skills.  The rest of a wizard's spells he needs to wait for.  

Other classes also get to use their new loot right away (after IDing it, in the worst case).  Wizards don't.


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## TiCaudata (Jul 20, 2007)

Getting a spellbook isn't getting a new feat.

Getting a new animal companion = 1 day
Something that I think is pretty comparable to getting a book full of new spells.

IDing takes at least a day unless you have a wizard that has memorized a spell that is useless to surviving an adventure with you.  So in that respect waiting in the wilderness to learn a spell might be faster than going back to a town, hiring a sage or wizard to ID and going back to the wilderness to kill the baddie.  The biggest difference is that you can use something without IDing it, something that is potentially very dangerous.

There are spells that take a day to cast (e.g. hallow) while they don't get used much, they would required wait time.


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## Dichotomy (Jul 23, 2007)

So, I think we've derailed again.  I'm going to go further to rein it in this time.  The "signpost" approach" has failed, some I'll just be a roadblock instead.  (This is what happens when I ask specific questions and you refuse to answer them.  I hope it works.)

m_n, as noted before, doesn't care about the flavor stuff.  He thinks the rule is cumbersome and mechanically unsound.  He all but refuses to speak on the subject in any other terms.

Ti doesn't care about m_n's concerns and instead focuses nearly exclusively on the flavor.

The discussion between these two has, therefore, been nearly anti-productive.  I will proceed then with my assumptions about what they would say, if they were willing to talk in the same language.

I'm of the opinion that the rules in this context are a burden.  I suspect that if we play using the RAW in this context, we will find that they are a burden.  However, I think there are measures to be taken to mitigate such.  So, I'm going to do what I can to mitigate the burden in that manner (e.g. not rush you guys through possible downtime, if possible).  We can then re-visit the issue later and discuss it again with the benefit of more experience either effectively dealing with the burdens or finding the burdens to be too much.

So, RAW for now (sorry worthley), and the issue to be re-visited at a later date.


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## o3caudata (Jul 23, 2007)

Thank you.


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## Dichotomy (Jul 27, 2007)

So, I'm going to preface the entirety of this post with the following: I'm drunk.  Keep it in mind.

I've been considering the issue we've been having, and now it has taken on a life of its own for me.  You guys know me well enough to understand that it no longer has anything to do with finding a solution...  It's about the process of problem-solving.

In an effort to think this through some more, I've gone back to some reading that I haven't touched in awhile: RPG theory.  If you guys want to engage in a discussion about this, or just want something to read, I suggest this.  I would encourage beginning with the "System Does Matter" article, as it gives the most brief of outlines regarding the basic issues.  Next, I'd suggest "GNS and Other Matters of Role-playing Theory," followed by (in whatever order you prefer) the specific articles on each "philosophy": "Gamism: Step On Up," "Simulationism: The Right to Dream," and "Narrativism: Story Now."

I'm going to stop there for now, as I go back and re-read those articles myself.  I think they are fascinating myself, and think they might help us in figuring out how to discuss our current issue (as well as anything that might pop up later).


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## Dichotomy (Jul 31, 2007)

Regarding the reincarnate/raise dead issue, I first wanted to note that the reason for Nethezar's speech was to give the PCs still present the in-character information relevant to making the decision.  I figured that it might help you guys in expressing your characters' opinions on the matter.

That said, I am NOT going to decide how you guys proceed unless you guys just want me to do so.  So, we aren't going to make any progress in the game unless you decide something (even if that decision is simply to not make the decision yet and do something else).

I decided that this little OOC prod was needed given the... ummm... lack of momentum in posting.  I'd like to keep things moving, assuming that you guys are on board.


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## michael_noah (Jul 31, 2007)

This is just one of the situations that doesn't work well in PbP.  Let's all try to "power through it" or something.

My perspective is at the moment that Kushnak has clearly stated his desired course of action.  He's not quite ready to walk away from everyone on his own, so if there was some sort of response - either agreement or not - that would be great.  Worthley and I kind of posted on top of eachother there, but I don't think his statement really influences Kushank's thoughts at all.


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## TiCaudata (Jul 31, 2007)

I would say that PbP works quite well in this situation as Kushnak's analysis of the situation is pretty much dead on to what Erdolliel would want him to think.

Of course that is way more likely due to the controllers' knowledge of each other in general I suppose...

I am also all for moving ahead with the posting.  My being dead might have a little influence on that for sure!


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## TiCaudata (Aug 17, 2007)

The treasure sheet is lacking the value of damn near everything, making divvying up treasure to raise Erdolliel difficult if not impossible until the values are either appraised IC or just filled in.

I assume that most things involving jewelry that isn't magical is on the trading block...  I however am not alive and therefore have a limited role in the process.


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## michael_noah (Aug 23, 2007)

Crafting rule says:  You can create any wondrous item whose prerequisites you meet. Enchanting a wondrous item takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its price. To enchant a wondrous item, you must spend 1/25 of the item’s price in XP and use up raw materials costing half of this price.

You can also mend a broken wondrous item if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the XP, half the raw materials, and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.

Some wondrous items incur extra costs in material components or XP, as noted in their descriptions. These costs are in addition to those derived from the item’s base price. You must pay such a cost to create an item or to mend a broken one. 

I say: 1 day per thousand gold is too long.  There may be downtime in campaigns, but rarely is there ever 5-10 day downtimes.  We have previously used the rule that crafting simply requires the casting of the required spell once for each 1000 gold.  This allows crafters to speed the process by committing more slots per day to the spell, and allows more experienced crafters to craft faster than lesser ones.

Thoughts?


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## TiCaudata (Aug 23, 2007)

Well here we go again...

I saw some house rule somewhere that in effect said that you can do whatever you want in each of the days and the enchanting happens in any inbetween times, but that you just don't get the final product until however many days later.  This can be difficult in a campaign moving as fast (well in game time) as we are, since we might be 10 levels higher (yeah it's an exaggeration) by then.

This is a pretty good example of the "other classes have to wait too" argument that I was making before however.  Bazrim can study a spellbook while you craft something wondrous...

Committing slots per day isn't half bad of a compromise however for faster paced games.  Maybe we could figure out something similar with wizards, like if they only prepare half their spells they can learn the mystery book faster or something


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## michael_noah (Aug 23, 2007)

Granted on the needing to wait argument.

This is even more extreme than learning a spell, though.  If it actually took 16 days to make a +4 stat thing, no one would ever take the feat, because there would be a very large probability that the feat could never be used.


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## TiCaudata (Aug 23, 2007)

This is the EXACT same discussion as before.  As I see it, the question is whether or not advancing from level 1 to level 20 in less than a year is feasible or not.  

I say it isn't reasonable and that in this situation in particular it should be easy to build in downtime.  There is no apparent reason why we couldn't just build in "we take a week for Kushnak to craft the item and then follow Allustan" or after we get done doing whatever Allustan wants we say "we spend a week in X location while Kushnak crafts an item and Bazrim studies a book and everyone else practices fighting."  It doesn't have to take any extra posting time and it gets the same result without making a house rule to a major part of the game engine.  

If we changed the rule and then were in a time crunch situation where someone wanted to suddenly craft a +2 sword while we were in a dungeon there are probably 15 ways that the DM could get around that without thinking too hard and the sword wouldn't get crafted anyway.  So I don't see the benefit of changing this rule either I guess.


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## michael_noah (Aug 23, 2007)

The reason is, with the rule as it is now, there is a strong possibility that you will just never get to use your feat.  A rule that requires the DM to fake a thing in a story in order for you to even use an ability is a bad rule.


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## TiCaudata (Aug 23, 2007)

A story that forces a DM to move at a breakneck pace is a bad story.  Especially if it is just to keep the players' attention.

I think we are getting down to the crux of our different viewpoints here again...


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## Dichotomy (Aug 23, 2007)

So, I'm going to try to look at this issue differently than I did last time (since it IS the same issue).


			
				michael_noah said:
			
		

> A rule that requires the DM to fake a thing in a story in order for you to even use an ability is a bad rule.



Novel idea.

Some guy: "Hey!  There's this dungeon/tower/swamp/thing over there!"

Some other guy that wants to craft: "Cool!  But we just got done clearing out that other thing.  I'm gonna make some potions/wands/armor/things before we head out."

First guy: "Sweet!  I'll hang out in the bar/rob a house/practice my tai chi/learn some new spells/buy some equipment/do some random role-playing thing in the meantime."

Don't really see much DM faking a thing there.

Point being, your characters, as people with certain skills, no how to use them.  Kushnak knows that if he wants to craft something, he'll need to take the time to do it.  It's obviously not always feasible, but is it feasible often enough for him to just say "Hey, I want to make something.  Let's take some downtime."?


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## michael_noah (Aug 24, 2007)

My point is that it is necessary for the DM to provide a story specifically structured such that there is not a significant reason to do stuff.  He has to decide that if the party does not loot a dungeon, no one else will.  He has to decide that the bad guys don't hire more bodyguards.  He has to decide that the kidnappers don't get scared and kill the victim.

Yes, it is possible for the DM to do this.  It's also possible for the DM not to do this, or for the story simply not to allow it.  This possibility means that the feat might have _no use at all_.

To say, "Well, just have the DM build in the stuff, then," or, "Well, just make all the players agree that they'll allow the crafter to take downtime," is the same as saying, "there are no bad mechanics in DnD because you can always house rule them."



			
				TiCaudata said:
			
		

> A story that forces a DM to move at a breakneck pace is a bad story.




That's just BS.

Edit: Ok.  It's not.  Here is the only reason though - The DM isn't the one forced to move at a specific pace.  The players can easily be in situations that force them to move quickly if they want the characters to succeed, though.  The DM can just have them fail.


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## Dichotomy (Aug 24, 2007)

michael_noah said:
			
		

> My point is that it is necessary for the DM to provide a story specifically structured such that there is not a significant reason to do stuff.



Why?  Can't the DM do the opposite?  Can't the DM decide that, in fact, someone else DOES loot the dungeon?  Or that the bad guys DO hire more bodyguards?  Or the kidnappers DO get scared and kill the victim?  Can the DM use situations (like time pressure and competing goals) to make the characters have to face tough choices that will lead to consequences for their actions, give them more interest as moral decisions-makers, provide more IC interaction between them?

Sounds like drama to me.

The DM doesn't necessarily need to build stuff in, though he sometimes probably should.  And while there should certainly be some understanding between the players, to some extent isn't it about the characters, too?


			
				michael_noah said:
			
		

> The players can easily be in situations that force them to move quickly if they want the characters to succeed, though.



I think you are presenting a dichotomy that isn't necessarily there.  You can be forced into situations where you must move quickly if X, Y, or Z.  To label it as "success" or "failure", though, is misleading.

Sure, there are consequences, but isn't that part of the point?


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## o3caudata (Aug 24, 2007)

I certainly agree with Di's last post.  That when the situation fits, you can take the time.  

But.... it's stupid for a dm to be put in a position where his players make him decide between simply pausing a storyline that's already in motion or modifying it on the fly to fit his players random decisions to stop for 2 weeks to craft something....

It's a mess, just like the spell thing, but probably more so because it takes longer.  If this is going to turn into that same argument again, this is my "solution":

The game makes the option available to characters who have the time.  A DM could inform his PC's whether he expects there will sufficient downtime to craft items in the campaign.  If not, PC's shouldn't take the feats.  Just because you want to be able to make something, doesn't necessarily mean you'll have the means to.  The story should take precedent over the desire of the players to save some coin.

To be honest, MOST games we play are more like a season of 24 than say a season of star trek.  Time is important.  If it isn't in a particular game, i say leave it up to the DM to mandate that his players use the downtime created by those activities to flesh out characters.  Make up small inconsequential subplots which can entertain or otherwise occupy the time of the players who aren't crafting.


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## michael_noah (Aug 24, 2007)

You're exactly right, Di.  However, the situation with crafting is of a divergent nature.  Say you have Power Attack, you need to decide, based on the situation the DM presents, whether it should be used in any given situation.

Same goes for the tumble skill, or a specific spell.

In order for any of those to not _ever_ be useful, though, your DM would have to specifically try to hose you.  In order for crafting to _never_ be useful, you need to go through a game like the one we have to this point so far (and for who knows how long), under the current rules.


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## TiCaudata (Aug 24, 2007)

This is totally a circular argument.  The only reason that crafting is never useful is because the players have never attempted to take the time to make it useful because they see it as unuseful. Di isn't going to say "Well you guys suddenly have 3 weeks to burn, how do you want to spend the time?"  Crafting and profession at least have to be character/player driven rather than story/situational driven like many of the other feats.

Maybe it's time to try to make it useful by using the rule instead of changing it.  We're level 4-5 of 20, no reason we can't change the in game pace a little without seriously compromising our real world pace.  Well, outside of spending time arguing about any changes.


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## michael_noah (Aug 24, 2007)

Ok, so, I thought we all agreed on this before, and didn't think it would be an issue this time.

I seriously think that with the rules as they are, no person choosing feats which they would like to have benefit them would ever choose crafting feats.  If you'd all like to keep them the same, is it ok if I change my feat?  I've obviously not used it at all...


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## o3caudata (Aug 25, 2007)

um YOU took the feat m_n.  and assuming you understood the rules when you did so, you either accepted them or passed up the glaringly obvious opportunity to reach some conclusion with Di at THAT time......

it seems to me that you must have taken the feat EXPECTING the rules to be overhauled to a degree that YOU found satisfactory..... 

I want you to be able to craft things.  it is enormously beneficial to the party.... 

From a real-world stand-point taking away the 4 week delay(or whatever it is) to create something that only .5% of the population can even afford seems unnecessary.  

But the point of the crafting feats isn't REALLY to flesh out the mechanic used by the magicial shop keeper who sells you the bracers of armor... it's to enable to characters to increase the buying power of their money and to give some depth to the activities a character has.  Everyone is fine with the bard performing at taverns along the way, because it doesn't 'interrupt' the game.  I think what m_n is arguing is simply that mechanics which have a 'hard' cost to a pre-established storyline are derailing.  Ti's point, as it was with learning spells, is that the delay can be seen as something other than derailing.  

i feel like m_n doesn't agree with that, to the point where he is unwilling to take the opportunity to use the RAW.  SO... to me, i'd say right now, we should have a vote on whether we can augment the rules to say that a caster can increase productivity by expending more spells in a day when creating something.  if that vote fails, m_n deserves a slap on the wrist, some healthy berating from Ti, and a new feat, with the understanding that he shouldn't ever take crafting without determining if there is support for a rule change.... before the game is in full swing....


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## Dichotomy (Aug 25, 2007)

Hmmm...  Certainly not a solution I would have engineered, but I think we can go with that.

I'm assuming further discussion won't be beneficial.

Oh, and I'll let someone else vote first.  I don't want people choosing based on me.

Of course, I also don't want to have to give up my right to indecision.


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## o3caudata (Aug 26, 2007)

I vote we change the rules to read as such:

You can create any wondrous item whose prerequisites you meet. Enchanting a wondrous item takes one casting of every required spell for every 1,000 gp in its price, and a minimum of one day. To enchant a wondrous item, you must spend 1/25 of the item’s price in XP and use up raw materials costing half of this price.

And that we get to playing again.

(my justification is: m_n will whine if we don't.  the point of this whole thing is to have fun.  I seriously doubt that we'll have less fun as a result of this.  Especially if m_n actually makes things for all of us  

it will still take time to craft.  16,000 gp +4 str things are not going to be a "hey, i'll make this now, while she runs inside to gather some information" sorts of things.  if it's your goal to prevent m_n from crafting, it'll still be within your power to move the group to be able to do so.  if you're goal is to attempt to drive some non-combat, non-pre-built-storyline roleplaying, you'll still be provided the opportunity to.  More than we would be if we took the feat away, or left it as is [as m_n has already said he'd never use it.] 

To me, this solution might actually present SOME opportunity to incorporate those aspects into our games, and possibly we will find that we enjoy them and in the future not need to fight so vigorously to avoid them.)


and now, to continue this discussion, i would like to move on to m_n's next point of argument: 

"wondrous items should not have a predetermined body slot.  rather, they should have a slot which is similarly fitting for the enhancement being provided. for instance, there is no reason a +2 cha thing needs to be a cloak, a periapt or robe should be equally fitting. many other similar situations exist."

thank you and have a good sunday.


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## michael_noah (Aug 27, 2007)

I'll um... vote the same thing.

I don't actually really care about body slots - though those rules are _relatively_ clear in the DMG (i.e. there aren't restrictions, but there are reasons why the DM should tell you what you can and can't make where).


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## worthley (Aug 29, 2007)

So, I vote for O3's solution.

On the defined slot, I think this might end up being similar to the reason that not every class has spot as a class skill.  I haven't researched it enough, but it might be "too good" to allow much changes with this.


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## Dichotomy (Aug 29, 2007)

Well, that's a quorum and a majority.  So let's go with the "one casting of every required spell for every 1,000 gp in its price, and a minimum of one day" rule.

As for the other bit with slots, I don't know when that issue was placed on the table.  Do we need to say anything else about it?

Oh, and is Ti ever gonna post?  I'm totally waiting on him in the IC thread.


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## worthley (Aug 30, 2007)

Last I heard Ti was in Ohio, so, I don't know if he has much of a chance out there.


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## TiCaudata (Aug 30, 2007)

yup I officially suck at life

I vote that o3's compromise (being a version of MN's original compromise (which I tentatively agreed to provided it would ever be fleshed out), but with actual substance) is fine.

Not that it really matters anymore since it took me 15 years to put it up.  I'm just striving for unanimosity or something.


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## Dichotomy (Aug 30, 2007)

TiCaudata said:
			
		

> I'm just striving for unanimosity or something.





			
				Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) said:
			
		

> u·na·nim·i·ty
> –noun
> the state or quality of being unanimous; a consensus or undivided opinion: The unanimity of the delegates was obvious on the first ballot.
> 
> ...



So, "unanimosity" seems like quite the... interesting... non-word choice.  That's hilarious!


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## Dichotomy (Sep 4, 2007)

So, I've decided that I'm not going to wait for you guys to sort this out anymore.  It seems that isn't working.

I'm sensing a deeper problem.  Why do I always do that?  Oh well...

So...


			
				Ti said:
			
		

> wtf am I supposed to be doing about "buying" "crafting material"?



Maybe Erdolliel should ask.  It makes sense that she (character) is just a clueless as Ti (player).


			
				worthley said:
			
		

> Bazrim turns to the others. "Where is a good safe place to rest? I feel that we will wake up to an interesting day."



HOORAY for worthley trying to get this going.  (I am NOT being sarcastic.)  Note how long it takes for an answer to come...


			
				Ti said:
			
		

> in case y'all forgot I also offered to lead everyone to the mine shack. if any of you have any better options you really ought to offer them since the looming silence across the boards here is pushing the recokulous limits



Maybe they did.  There was sorta a traumatic raising of dead girl followed by dead girl absolutely ranting for a bit.  It might have gotten lost.  Perhaps Erdolliel (character) might have answered Bazrim's (character) question.


			
				o3 said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure we're following the girl to the mine office.



So, props to o3 for trying to keep this going.  I ALMOST went with it (because I personally wasn't sure that was what people wanted to do).  But, as it turns out...


			
				m_n said:
			
		

> "Once she gets back with the goods, we'll head to the mine. I want to see what all this dream nonsense is about."



This seems to clearly indicate that, in fact, the group had NOT decided what they were doing.  Which illustrates the reason that I hadn't moved you to the mine office.

This is the IC response that I would have liked to see to Bazrim's question.  However, given the way that things had played out, m_n's misconception about the time of day, and possibly Erdolliel's lack of knowing what Kushnak is talking about, it didn't make a ton of sense.

So, I explained the time of day thing...


			
				m_n said:
			
		

> for some reason i thought it was just "church" late. silly. so yeah, we'll go to the mine first, plan to have her shop in the morning - if that's ok with Allustan.



So, if that is what Kushnak thinks, maybe he should tell the others.  If he wants to know whether Allustan is okay with it, maybe he should ask him.

****

The comments above probably sound mean, caustic, something.  I am NOT trying to be a jerk.  I suspect that the problem is my own fault for failing to communicate and then thinking the problem would self-correct.  I apologize for that error.  I should have stepped in sooner.

So, two things.

1) At what level do we want to do this stuff?  We just had our discussions revolving around down-time, having this not be like "playing a video game," and all that talk.  Obviously, it is not an on-off switch.  I just want to get a better feel for where on the continuum we want to be.  Do we want to just say "We go do X and Y, then rest at A, do Z when we wake up, and then meet Allustan?"  Or do we want to play it out more?

2) I simply didn't know what you guys wanted to do.  o3's understanding was that the group was going to go to the mine office, but I didn't know if that was in fact what the group wanted to do.  I don't even know if the entity of "the group" DID have such an opinion.  But I'll call _mea culpa_ on that one.  It is obvious (and should have been obvious to me earlier) that the clarity issue is mine and mine alone.  I will endeavor to be more explicit when I need clarification.


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## TiCaudata (Sep 5, 2007)

I posted in the IC thread before looking here.

I, like MN I believe, was of the opinion that while it was late-ish, the town ran deep into the night.  Since he seemed to be on course with me, Erdolliel was largely following his lead in the remarkably fragmented conversation.  While I generally pride myself on following multiple lines of talk that aren't necessarily in chronological order, I admit that I am pretty much lost from about midway through Erdolliel's rant.

Despite my views 90% of the time, I think an XYC ABC thing will work to smooth out the confusion in this case MUCH more quickly than trying to establish where we were, are, and are going through IC and OC posts.  If we were in real life here none of this probably would have happened I suppose.

I tried to lay out some contingencies in my IC (thread at least) post, feel free to ask me if they aren't clear.


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## o3caudata (Sep 7, 2007)

K.... so... um....

First, we need to know whether Erdolliel can shop tonight.  If she can't, it's a freaking moot point and we're going to the mine office.

Since she would be either leading us directly to the mine office or abandoning us to our whims while we waited for her to finish, it seems to me that the ONLY thing missing is that fact.  

If she can't, and Alustan says he has to leave immediately in the morning, it seems like we should have Di simply state it.... maybe like this:

"you won't be able to get anything in town at this our, and because of the urgency of my task, we'll have to wait until we get to the free city."

MAYBE, if she can shop, we will have to talk about whether she leads us somewhere or not.  It's my opinion that the group WANTS her to shop as soon as she's able.

If we need to argue then, lets.  but right now NO PC character even knows what they could say.....  i feel like Di needs to accept that the PC's have, mostly due to our own vagueness, walked themselves into a corner than we can't get out of, and simply tell us what the options are available to our player characters....IC.


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## michael_noah (Sep 7, 2007)

see, now i thought we had everything figured out?  aren't we gonna go to the mine office?

the reason i didn't say anything in character is that none of the previous in character stuff made any sense in light of the new info...


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## Dichotomy (Sep 7, 2007)

Well, there seems to be obvious hostility/frustration/confusion/something.  I clearly have failed to take care of this adequately.  I apologize.

I don't want to go through the stuff that was said or not said in order to explain what I was thinking.  The bottom line, for me anyway, was that I just plain wasn't sure what you guys wanted to do.  E.g. while o3's assessment certainly makes sense, I simply didn't know that was what you guys wanted to do.  If you want, I can lay out the specific reasons why I was confused, but I don't think that would be helpful.

So, to respond to o3's request, here are options:
-Shopping tonight is OUT (unless you want to try something odd, like banging on shopkeeper's doors or the like)
-Allustan would have no problem waiting for you to buy supplies in the morning
-Allustan WOULD have a problem with waiting for you guys to check out the Whispering Cairn in the morning (which would take considerably longer than shopping); HOWEVER, if the group pressed the issue, you may or may not be able to get him to acquiesce

Do you need more?


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## michael_noah (Sep 7, 2007)

That sounds like it.  I wasn't asking for more explanation of what (didn't actually) happened before, etc.  We were all just not connecting, that's fine.  I'm just explaining why I wasn't really helpful in the IC post.  

Official stance of the Party:

We are going to go to the mine office to rest, since we can't do so in town.  We are going to shop in the morning.  We are going to talk about whether we should press for time to explore the cairn.  I will make an IC post to this effect, and just completely ignore all the other IC posts.


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## TiCaudata (Sep 7, 2007)

agreed


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## worthley (Sep 10, 2007)

This may seem counterproductive, but I suggest that all rules should stay as they are.  I am in no way saying that the rules perfect the way they are.  I am just saying, whenever it comes down someone not agreeing with the way a rule works, it makes the game come to a complete halt for two weeks.  Recently I've notices that this has made me disinterested in the game, as I couldn't give a poo (edited: South Park style) about player A wanting only players with the use rope skill to be able to wear boots with laces.  I care infinately about the story and game flow than I do about how rules work.  I know I caused some of this with trying to understand how wizards get new spells.

I am unsure if this is a problem for anyone else.  It has made the game hard for me to get excited about.  I don't think that it would have been a problem if we kept the story going, but I think there is somthing retarded with us that makes it where we can't do more than one thing at a time.  I am going to try to get excited about the game again, but from now on, I am going to ignore any arguments about possible rule changes.  Also, instead of arguing for a week and a half of "where are we"  I'm going to accept Di's statement of where we are in this game and accept it, instead of trying to figure out if it's a reasonable time to abuse the rule I just changed.


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## Dichotomy (Sep 11, 2007)

I first wanted to note that it looks like m_n hasn't been on since we started Part IV, which I why I haven't posted again.

I second wanted to address worthley's concerns.

I agree that it has been annoying stopping the game.  I also understand that it DOES make it difficult to maintain a high interest level when things bog down.  I take full responsibility for the slow-downs.  I will endeavor to 1) resolve any odd issues like the ones we recently had MUCH faster than I have been, and 2) to the greatest extent I can, keep the game going despite such issues.  I think at least a good portion of our issues have been exacerbated by my own personality quirkiness (but I won't go any further with that).

I think part of the problem, at least with specific rules, is that our group has, in the past, used relatively concrete deviations from the RAW.  I believe that m_n's discussions have mostly revolved around those specific issues.  Part of the reason I think this has caused a bit of trouble for us is that most of these houserules were inserted into the group back when Ti wasn't really a part of it.  I won't try to give some analysis other than to say that the group dynamic is different now, and the whole thing is further complicated by the fact that we are using the medium of PbP.  Back when we had live sessions, we (generally) would see something we thought didn't work well, finish our session of play, and THEN spend tons of time analyze it (so play itself experienced little interruption).  To some extent I may be putting the cart before the horse, but perhaps a solution is that (in the instance we have some issue with the RAW) we attempt to push on with the RAW unless and until we conclusively decide to make some change.  I guess we will have to be flexible.  But, as noted, I will try my best to prevent us from halting again.

Does that help at all?


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## michael_noah (Sep 11, 2007)

So I'm confused.  Are we using the rule changes we've come up with so far or not?

Backstory for the sake of completeness.  I thought we all agreed to change a bunch of specific rules back when we played irl.  Ti was not there, but I figured that since the rest of us agreed, he could perhaps suck it.  As it turns out... I guess we changed a bunch of rules but no one actually agreed with it?  In any case, I do actually like playing more than I like arguing about the rules, even if I spend more time doing the later.  So again, I think I made my stance on all of the rules we've brought up pretty clear - I just want to know what the final decision is.  And, if it's not to use the house rule for crafting, I would very much like to change my feat.


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## Dichotomy (Sep 11, 2007)

I think the idea is that we are going to use the rules to which we've already agreed, but (please correct me if I'm wrong) it was worthley desire that we not change any more of them.

Yes?


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## TiCaudata (Sep 12, 2007)

That's the way I read it.


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## worthley (Sep 12, 2007)

It was me that said not to change any more rules.  My desire to not change rules anymore comes from the formula: playing a game > arguing over rules.  If we remove arguing, more time to play a game.


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## TiCaudata (Sep 12, 2007)

Ya know, for two people who profess nothing but a strong desire to play, you guys don't seem to actually post too terribly often...

oh yeah, and there's a fair to middling chance that I won't be able to check the boards from work as of 5:30ish tonight.


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## Dichotomy (Sep 14, 2007)

*Re: Ti's sblock in the IC thread*

I decided to move this here.

1) Allustan likely would not intend to go with Erdolliel.  He would tell her that he was told about the mural room by the prior group, that he is interested in it, but that his focus now is on the "puzzle" that is bringing him to Blackwall Keep.  Assuming that Erdolliel tries to persuade him otherwise (I think diplomacy would be appropriate), she fails to convince him (rolled a 5).  He indicates that it is really his preference that they already be moving, but that he understands the party's need to rest/craft/etc.  While he is willing to give them the time to do so, he intends to do what he can in the meantime on his "puzzle."

2) I don't know whether the "you" in Kushnak's comment was directed at Allustan, Nethezar, or even Bazrim.

3) Apparently we still have issues.  The reason I chose to make the little summary in #1 above, rather than play it out, is because we seem to be stalling... again.  It is my understanding that some of you have been talking or IMing about this.  It is further my understanding that such communications haven't always been cordial.  I'm not going to beg people to post.  I'm not going to make anything greater than a passing reference to the irony of people saying they would rather play than talk OOC and then not posting.  Do we need to talk more about this?


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## TiCaudata (Sep 14, 2007)

Erdolliel relays the information, particularly about the "puzzle" to the group.  As Kushnak begins to work on some items (she'd prolly want a pair of striding boots if we decide they don't have to spring) Erdolliel gathers up Eskard (and any of the others interested in coming) and ensures that the cairn is free of hazards to her life.


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## michael_noah (Sep 14, 2007)

Kushnak was talking to neth - I was under the same assumption as you - that Erdolliel might or might not be back yet because she hadn't finished talking to Allustan, so I was just responding to the only person that was there.


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## michael_noah (Sep 14, 2007)

Kushnak was talking to neth - I was under the same assumption as you - that Erdolliel might or might not be back yet because she hadn't finished talking to Allustan, so I was just responding to the only person that was there.


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## Dichotomy (Sep 17, 2007)

I said that I was going to try harder to keep the game moving and such.  So, that's what I'm going to try to do.

1) I believe that Erdolliel and Eskard are going to scout out the Whispering Cairn.  I believe that Kushnak intends to craft.  Nethezar may or may not do one of those (he will either scribe scrolls or go to the cairn).  Is Bazrim doing anything?

2) Did any of the characters actually want to make a suggestion about Kushnak's crafting (other than Nethezar's query as to what he can make and Ti's OOC note about boots)?  Likewise, did anyone want to make any suggestions to Nethezare about scrolls?

3) I have been... negligent regarding the treasure spreadsheet.  It appears to have been done, but I wanted to make certain that we have in fact accounted for (a) "selling" stuff to Allustan to get the resources for the raise dead spell and (b) actually selling stuff to allow the purchase of crafting materials.

I seem to think there was something else about which I wanted clarification, but I don't recall now...


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## TiCaudata (Sep 17, 2007)

Erdolliel would have mentioned the boots instead of just the OC comment, I guess I could have played that out better.  She will certainly not mind getting a vest.

The rest looks right to me, we ended up with 2600 odd gold of materials I think.


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## worthley (Sep 17, 2007)

I have a question if this is meta gaming or not.  Bazrim can craft wands.  He knows he just gained this ability along with other abilities (i.e. just figured out).  He knows that to craft a wand, it takes some of his personal strenght away (exp loss).  Is Bazrim aware that he will lose his abilites he just gained if he were to craft a wand?  I think this is a very grey area in the game, and just wanted your opinions on this.


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## o3caudata (Sep 17, 2007)

i guess i'm not positive, but i've always assumed character do not have a 'hard' concept of their xp totals and how they relate to level.  Rather i've assumed its 'softer', in that they are aware they are 'on the verge' of some personal discovery and would be able to tell when an ability is 'thoroughly entrenched' in their brain.  I'd say it's probably comparable to hit points, where you aren't actually aware the the specific numbers, you understand your relative position in it.  

So to answer your question, yes i think that if crafting a wand would cause bazrim to go down a level, i think he's aware of it.


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## michael_noah (Sep 17, 2007)

Just to be clear here - you can't craft a thing if it would make you lose a level.  It's not a question of whether he knows whether a consequence would occur - it's a question of whether he knows he could take any action at all.


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## TiCaudata (Sep 28, 2007)

I'm up at Mom's cabin on Vermillion this weekend and won't be posting as a result of it.


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## TiCaudata (Oct 15, 2007)

I updated my wealth in the treasure sheet, you all should too.


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## Dichotomy (Oct 15, 2007)

Good idea.

Also, I was hoping to get a summary posted tonight.  It's not going to probably happen.  I'm sure you guys can live until I get it up though.


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## TiCaudata (Nov 13, 2007)

hey guys, I'm driving out to Washington State and then back to Missoula to see mi hermano from Wednesday to next Tuesday.  I will almost certainly have internet access for all nights except for Wednesday and Monday.  So if you guys post, I will too...


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## Dichotomy (Nov 13, 2007)

TiCaudata said:
			
		

> mi hermano



Please, don't swear at me.


			
				TiCaudata said:
			
		

> So if you guys post, I will too...



COUGH!  HACK!  WHEEZ!


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## TiCaudata (Jan 12, 2008)

OH! OH! OH! OH! staying alIIIIIIIVVEE


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## TiCaudata (Mar 13, 2008)

Alright...

Time to shop and craft!

What do we want? I'm pretty sure just about anything is available here for our 58k of gold.  AND I have a crapton of wealth to all of your tiny tiny hauls.

So come up with things so I stop feeling guilty!


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## Dichotomy (Mar 13, 2008)

Additionally, there is the possibility of crafting.  Kushnak, now in quasi-co-pc-land, has both craft wondrous item and craft arms and armor.  I would not advise deciding to kill all his XP, but m_n DID take the feats with the intent of using them.  I don't personally want to have too much direct input in your purchases, but feel free to discuss it, and I'll comment if you'd like.


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## o3caudata (Mar 13, 2008)

SOOOO...

Personally. roleplaying out the selling of things is boring, unless Di want's it to contribute to things i guess...

for crafting: Kushnak can't bulid a lot in a week.  Here's a good guess at viable things:


+2 (whatever) attribute....  4 days( Neth->wis;erdo(?)->dex(?);Esk->STR....)

+3 armor... for Eskard its 8 days(+1->+3)

+{vicious}...for Eskard... it's not that great... gives +2d6 dmg to him for 1d6 to him so we need to account for that in healing...

+{keen}...for eskard or Erdolliel..  19 or 20 becomes 17,18,19, or 20

+ man... who let the crafting guy get played be the guy who ONLY needs items... 

Eskard is behind, and would require serious motivation to correct that.....Eskard won't provide that. Kushnak might....  Which leaves everyone else if you think.

for buying: Bazrim-> whatever he think's is valuable.(within some approval.    Don't forget that for at least the next 3 or 4 levels Eskard will benefit WAY more than Bazrim for stuff most of the above.... )  

Eskard wants, in order: more to hit, more to damage, more to better anything else... cause it's him.

[i am FAAAAAAR to drunk to continue this post. thus, STOP]


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## TiCaudata (Mar 14, 2008)

So I did some math and figured out that when the rest of you equal me in wealth we'll still have 9k of our 58k left.

so is that 9k of wands?

p.s. I also thought I posted this at 8am...


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## Dichotomy (Mar 14, 2008)

FYI, according to the DMG, 7th level characters should theoretically have 19,000 gp of stuff.  So, you guys are ahead of the curve.  Though, after selling loot (i.e. losing value) it will be closer to par.


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## o3caudata (Mar 16, 2008)

i did some cleaning of the party treasure sheet.  there appears to be some confusion about what the numbers on the sheet MEAN, so i clarified as much as i could.  we don't have 58k, we have 58k worth of stuff.  after selling were close to ~31, assuming we sell everything.

Assuming we aspire to get everyone evened up again, there are approximate totals of what you should get to spend in the column 'Act disp recov'

Did Neth ever actually take the un-priced CLW wand on the sheet?

Any one want anything on the list before selling it?  Anyone have anything they want to buy? or craft?


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## Dichotomy (Mar 16, 2008)

Thanks for the work, o3.  I added the CLW wand to Neth's sheet and removed it from treasure.  I wasn't certain whether it was actually resolved whether Neth or Erd would take it (even though Erd sucks at using it).

I forgot to mention, but Neth also have the craft wand feat.  So, if there are spells he can cast that you'd want as wands...


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## TiCaudata (Mar 17, 2008)

As far as I remember Erd was never going to take it.  At best she wanted to give the one she owns (and sucks with) to Neth too, but it was resolved that maybe she'll suck less with it soon.


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## o3caudata (Mar 17, 2008)

with the ~9k for eskard i'd like:

crafts my armor to +2(3 days, 1500 gold raw mat, 120 xp)
boots of go faster (5300 gold[kushnak *can't* craft])

(6800)
maybe something else....

------

for Kushnak's ~5k:  

crafts +2 armor (4 days, 2000 gold, 160xp)

-----

i don't so much mind the idea of a wand of bull strength.  Sorta pricy, but a better option than a +2 str thing for anyone in the party.  I"d kick in the different in eskards stuff above for one.  I'm sure kushnak could chip in some too..  unless anyone else has something better for neth to do.


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## TiCaudata (Mar 17, 2008)

Erdolliel wants ... ...
...
...

hrm

...
...

damnit


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## Dichotomy (Mar 18, 2008)

So, I'm probably not going to post tonight.  I'm frickin' tired (I got not enough sleep this weekend), and now I don't recall the 500 things that Ti told me to do.  I SHOULD be better able to deal with this tomorrow.  In the meantime, if worthley wants anything for Bazrim...  Oh, and if you guys have any other equipment thoughts, or should I just assume that you are willing to give each other whatever you want?


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## worthley (Mar 19, 2008)

1 scroll comprehend languages - 25 gp and to add it to my spell book
1 headband of intellect - new - 4000 gp
1 caster level 7 MM wand - 5250gp


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## Dichotomy (Mar 19, 2008)

So, I'm just gonna handle all this here.

When Baz scans for missed magic, he finds nothing new.

The "blank" scroll was actually already dealt with earlier.

The adamantine loop: I think Allustan told the old party, but maybe not the current one.  In any case, Allustan, Eligos, or even Baz or Neth can tell easily that it looks like a Talisman of the Sphere.  It radiates strong transmutation.  It is currently "inactive," though that makes no sense to anyone.

As for Neth's "wishlist":

Of current stuff:
Neth could keep the heavy steel shield of blinding.  His current shield is non-magic, so this would save the party on the "sell-loss."
Circlet of persuasion.  It would help Neth a bit (turning checks) EXCEPT he is already wearing the "circlet" of wisdom (from Zosiel's tomb).  So, if something can be worked out (like someone else taking the "circlet" and Neth getting something on another slot).
The club +1.  Neth certainly doesn't NEED it, but it would be better than his mwk morningstar, and would save on "sell-loss."
The ring of spell storing might be worth keeping, as a thought.  As is probably the amulet of natural armor, if someone has the neck slot open.

New stuff:
Wand of MM; caster level 5 or 7; 3,750 or 5,250 gold (no one can craft)

Filler (he doesn't really need, but could take to even him out):
Magic armor (+1 or +2) either crafted or bought, depending on K's XP
Random cleric scrolls (depending mostly upon what things you would like him to have on hand "just in case"; so you guys can have a lot of input on that)
Boots of striding (we should re-discuss whether these exist, or whether only boots of spring & striding exist)

Stuff "for the party":
Neth will probably make SEVERAL wands of CLWs at caster level 1 (375 gp; 30 XP) for between-encounter healing.  I would propose that the funds be taken out of the pool, rather than his share.
I've also been considering the possibility of crafting or buying a more powerful wand for emergency needs.  I'll leave that up to you, as I wouldn't expect Neth to pay for that either.


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## TiCaudata (Mar 19, 2008)

So I put together a crafting wishlist on a different sheet of our treasure spreadsheet.  Look it over, fill in anything I've missed, add stuff as appropriate.

Boots of Striding vs Boots of Striding and Springing.  We've all admitted that we don't really ever use the springing part and I think we agreed that Boots of Striding could exist for the same price as their counterparts.  As far as I remember, the only reason that we didn't craft them before was that we had a limited amount of raw materials and while they would have been nice, it was nicer to get both a vest of resistance and a peripat peripret peripiat headband of wisdom.

As for group benefit wands and scrolls and what not.  There has been a little confusion here I imagine about how the money is being split up.  First was my fault for failing to subtract the "selling cost" of various goods.  Since that has been dealt with, though, we are in a position where none of you are actually going to catch Erdolliel in wealth from this deal alone.  That means that if we want goods like wands of CLW or scrolls of big healing, the material costs will either have to just get subtracted before you divy up the wealth or we can just see how close you all get to your alloted amount and then we'll see what's left.

Basically, I agree that the cost of the group items like wands of CLW or scrolls of CSW should NOT count against a single individual (like Neth), but everyone is still 'paying' for the items since we don't actually have a surplus of wealth.

Feel free to say "huh?" if that doesn't make sense after the third try...


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## Dichotomy (Mar 19, 2008)

So... a couple things.

Ti informed me that we apparently had some confusion about the bracers of armor.  Yes... very much so.  Baz had the earlier bracers found... +1.  You also found on the lizardking another set.  They are +3.  So... that's a boon to the treasure pile.  We can say that Neth IDs those bracers this morning.

I looked a bit more in depth, particularly at the section of the adventures during the live session.  I don't THINK we missed anything else.  I will continue to look.

The wish list sheet seems to have an error.  The reason for wanting boots of striding only is because they would cost less.  But I don't know how to handle that (i.e. its not a second spell to make it "springing" as well; and how much less should they cost for not having "springing?).  Thoughts?  I guess I don't know what Ti means by "I think we agreed that Boots of Striding could exist for the same price as their counterparts."

To answer Ti's query in the IC thread, I would like to have this stuff decided before we start moving (or at least way closer to decided than we have now).

Anything else?


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## Dichotomy (Mar 20, 2008)

I talked with o3.  We settled on Kushnak being 100 XP behind the party.  We can keep "real" track of it now.

After consultation, Neth will only be keeping the club +1.  That has been taken off the treasure sheet, added to Neth's wealth, and his spare mwk morningstar added to the treasure sheet in its place.

Neth's wealth was also adjusted by me to account for his now empty (or nearly empty) wands from his starting wealth.

Ti, worthley, and I are on the same page regarding the boots.  o3, if you need to be caught up to speed, talk to either me or Ti, depending upon whether you want random babbling or clarity.

So, Neth wants:
Wand of MM: caster level 5 or 7; 3,750 or 5,250 gold (no one can craft)
Magic armor & shield: +1 is 1,000 gp or 500 gp and 40 XP for Kushnak; +2 is 4,000 gp or 2,000 gp and 160 XP (note: it is better to give Neth a bonus to armor and shield before giving either a +2)
Boots of Striding (& Springing): 5,500 gp not crafted; 2,250 and 220 XP (is that right?) if Kushnak crafts (in which case, they are only striding)

I've given some options because 1) it will depend upon how much XP Kushnak is willing to spend and 2) it will depend upon how much the party spends on party treasure (wands/scrolls of healing or other party stuff).


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## o3caudata (Mar 20, 2008)

<rambling: begin>

1) boots of striding MUST cost less than boots of striding and springing.  i'm sorry i didn't bring this up earlier. but if it's possible to create them, there will be a market for them.  If they're easier to make, more people can will them(no crafting cleric is going to voluntarily take the jump skill).. supply...demand....  For instance, neth wants boots... jump means NOTHING to him.  why pay what would be a premium for them when he doesn't have to.  i mean, the jump bonus means something to some people maybe(monks, barbs, fighters, rangers, rogues)... and because item slots are limited the bonus provided by the boots as written could actually be more valuable to some.  it sucks. because making straight 'boots of striding' cheaper makes them even more accessible to everyone... (read: more broken)


i'm not gonna number anything..... for a bit at least....   first, my opinion is that kushnak(mike) would actually see this as an ideal time to craft.  lots of downtime, already barely behind everyone[read: barely short of a lever] so i think he'd do all he could, especially for himself.

as such conditional item want lists:

eskard:

10816

5500  boots (they're worth it for him)
2000  belt of +2 str (kush craft 1 day, 160xp)

2000 amulet of armor (keep. it's a better value than increasing the armor)

1316 left for 2 clw wands(we need them..)

kushnak:

6081

2000 plate +2(kush crafts 1 day, 160xp)
1000 greatsword +1 (kush crafts 1 day, 80xp)
2000 cloak of res +2 (kush crafts 1 day, 160xp)

1081 left for wands

neth(from kush):

500 plate +1 (kush crafts 1 day, 40xp)
500 shield +1 (kush crafts 1 day, 40xp)
      [i think your post implies he needs both still? which confuses me base on the wish list]
      [i'm fine with +2 instead, 1500gp, 120xp]

total xp lost: 640 [ 720xp w/ +2 for neth]

total leftover(kush&esk): ~2498.19 ( that's 6+ wands, or a couple wands from us and some save our ass scrolls, i'm fine with surrendering this to neth's discretion)

<rambling:end>


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## Dichotomy (Mar 24, 2008)

This is probably more for my benefit than anyone else's.  However, that statement should not be construed so as to absolve you of the need to read the post.

1.  Regarding boots of striding (& springing).  I think we discussed this.  I also think that o3's argument that they should cost less (for economic reasons) is, in this instance, undermined by o3's concluding statement (which reads like a concession on the point).  Is there anything else to be said about this issue?  If not, I think we should make them cost the same, but allow a person without the ranks in jump have the ability to craft them w/o jump bonus.

2.  Character wealth issues of wands and spellbooks.
2a.  Spellbooks: I discussed this at least with Ti and worthley (and I think Ti discussed it with o3).  Here is my conclusion: spells which are added to Bazrim's spellbook solely because he automatically learned then upon gaining a level, should NOT count toward the "value" of his spellbook.  Spells added via other means (e.g. purchased, recovered from captured spellbooks, etc.) DO count toward the "value" of his spellbook.  As a sidenote, once Bazrim had copied spells from captured spellbooks into his own spellbook, the captured spellbook should be able to be sold.
2b.  Wands: Again, discussed over the weekend.  Here's the bottom line: if Bazrim gets to continually invest his share of treasure in wands, use those wands, and then have that not count against Bazrim's later share of the treasure, Bazrim would get a huge windfall.  This isn't terribly equitable.  I think we all agreed that wands should count toward the total value of the owner's possessions (and not be reduced because they are used).  Essentially, the notion is that value should be tracked by what a party member has ACQUIRED, whether it still exists or not.  Now, this brings up the question of whether that means we all need to rigorously keep track of potions, acid flasks, etc. that we've long since used and the like.  THAT could be cumbersome.  Thoughts?

What else do we need to finish up?


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## Dichotomy (Mar 24, 2008)

I knew I'd forget something...

3.  Regarding scrolls:  I discussed this with at least Ti and o3.  In short, I (as the DM) shouldn't decide what scrolls to purchase for the party's contingency needs.  While, IC, it is certainly Neth that would decide what to get, I shouldn't be making that decision.  So, you guys need to do the scroll goo.


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## TiCaudata (Mar 24, 2008)

Alright, since Worthley hasn't gone and posted any addendum to what he wants I'm going to assume that his earlier post of







			
				Worthley said:
			
		

> 1 scroll comprehend languages - 25 gp and to add it to my spell book
> 1 headband of intellect - new - 4000 gp
> 1 caster level 7 MM wand - 5250gp



 is accurate.

This leaves us with a grand total of 11,974 for scrolls and wands.  That's a good haul.  If we go with one of every scroll on our 'wish list' we would have 4,249 left for wands.  I don't know if I believe that to be a good idea or not though, since multiple wands might have more value to us than "just in case" scrolls.

Moving on, I'm ok with only the added spells counting for Worthley.  I haven't received a final answer on whether we ever sold the spellbooks that Bazrim copied from or not though.  Assuming we haven't, that's a bit of wealth that will balance out for Bazrim.  Looking at Bazrim's spellbook, I see that he has marked 1,400 worth of spells as being 'purchased'.  I don't believe that this includes any of the spells that were copied over from the captured spellbooks though, since 'shield' isn't on that list, but was commented as being copied over on the first or second page of our current IC thread.  Shield raises the worth of Bazrim's current spellbook to 1500, anything else raises it more.

I do think we need to come up with some way of keeping track of ephemeral wealth such as wands and scrolls.  Since this is our first division of wealth it would be easy in theory to start right now by making a 'wand and scroll' sheet and keeping track of how much wealth and charges each wand has.  The unfortunate part of such a spreadsheet is that I believe I would be stuck with keeping track of everyone's wands since I tend to be more diligent (read:  less patient) about keeping those neat.  That admission shouldn't be read as "Oh goody!  Ti will just keep track of them!" because that'll make me cranky and prone to adding penalty charges or something else vague but threatening.

That's all I got for now I think.


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## Dichotomy (Mar 26, 2008)

Neth's final list (assuming Kushnak is willing to craft):
Wand of MM, caster level 9: 6,750 gp
Add +1 to armor: 500 gp and 40 xp (Kushnak)
Add +1 to shield: ditto

7,750 gp and 80 xp from Kushnak total.

Can't really think of anything else yet.  Neth will be generous for now.  You can use the rest of his share to cover party goo.


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## TiCaudata (Mar 26, 2008)

alright!

that gives us about 2449 left for a few scrolls!  we already have some picked out on the "scroll wish list" sheet of the treasure sheet.  What should we finalize?!


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## Dichotomy (Mar 26, 2008)

I assume that all of the selling and buying will probably occur as soon as it can.  As for the crafting, in what order will things be crafted?


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## TiCaudata (Mar 26, 2008)

Here's my proposed order for Kushnak:............Here is my proposed order for Nethezar:

Kush Greatsword.........................................Neth Wand of CLW
Neth Armor................................................Neth Wand of CLW
Kush Cloak.................................................Neth Wand of CLW
Eskard Belt................................................Neth Wand of CLW 
Neth Shield................................................Neth Wand of CLW
Kush Armor (will actually take 2 days)


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## TiCaudata (Apr 9, 2008)

did Erdolliel's attempt to sense motive on RBM come up empty then?


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## Dichotomy (Sep 1, 2008)

Haven't had a post here in awhile...

As noted in the IC thread, I've finally posted the Part IV summary.

I've also updated the Encounters defeated and XP.

I believe that is the correct total, particularly for the crafting goo.  I believe that Neth has made 4 CLW wands (30 XP each) and that Kushnak has made a +1 greatsword (80 XP), +1 armor for Neth (40 XP), cloak of resistance +2 (160 XP), and belt of str +2 for Esk (160 XP).  I have the crafting broken into two sections of subtractions right now because I THINK that the last time I updated the XP it included the first item each of Neth and Kush crafted (it happens to be the right numbers).  Is that correct?


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## TiCaudata (Nov 24, 2008)

not sure what all y'all are doing for turkey day, but i'll be flying to NYC late Tues night.  dunno if I'll be able to get any posting in, but it's probably better if you don't count on me until Sun night

enjoy your Tryptophan induced stupers!


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## Dichotomy (Nov 25, 2008)

It probably makes sense to just not plan to post from Tuesnight to Sunnight.  That said, I'll post if I'm able (so, if any of you get a moment, feel free to post as well).


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## TiCaudata (Apr 15, 2009)

I think I'm good to go already...


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