# Lost: 11/1/06



## Taelorn76 (Nov 2, 2006)

Season 3 Episode 5 - The Cost of Living



			
				tvguide.com said:
			
		

> A delirious Eko wrestles with demons from his past, while Locke and other castaways head to the Pearl, one of the Dharma Initiative's island stations, in search of a computer they can use to locate Jack, Kate and Sawyer. Meanwhile, Jack doesn't know whom to trust when two of the Others seem at odds with each other.


----------



## EricNoah (Nov 2, 2006)

Mmm... the Pearl.  That's the heart of some good mystery TV!


----------



## Ambrus (Nov 2, 2006)

Who are these mysterious losties on the beach who insist on talking out loud and acting like primary characters?!? Didn't they read the mute tertiary character memo?


----------



## EricNoah (Nov 2, 2006)

My wife wanted to know who the heck the golfing dude was last week.  He really baffled her!  She thought he must be vital to the plot if he spoke!


----------



## Ambrus (Nov 2, 2006)

Hm. My guess is that they're anomolies of some sort; like Arzt. I wouldn't count on this strange occurence persisting much longer. If they keep it up they may give some ideas to the other thirty-some losties on the beach to get up off their rumps and do something themselves. That's dangerous thinkin...


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 2, 2006)

You have to love Hurley's remark to Locke, followed by the two new characters conversation about always wanting to participate. That is one of the things I like about the show. It's like the writers are intouch with what is being said on the net, how they sort of poke fun at themselves.

Another thing I realized is that Eko is the last of the tail section survivors. Or am I mistaken on that.


----------



## Crothian (Nov 2, 2006)

No, there is Rose's husband who we haven't seen all season.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 2, 2006)

Crothian said:
			
		

> No, there is Rose's husband who we haven't seen all season.




Oh yeah I completly forgot about both of them.



In the pearl hatch, the revelation that the monitors were feeds from other hatches, didn't Locke figure that out last season when him and Eko were in there and saw the hatch they called home on one of the monitors?


----------



## EricNoah (Nov 2, 2006)

I could swear he saw footage of Jack or someone last season, yeah.


----------



## Crothian (Nov 2, 2006)

The first time they were in Pearl I think they just turned on a monitor.  THey didn't try to get feeds from other places.  

Nice episode.  Sad to see Echo go, he was one of the better characters.  So, are the Others really divided or is this just another way to mess with Jack's head?


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 2, 2006)

Well it seems we know the formula to being killed off on this show. You get arrested for DUI in Hawaii and that is a death sentence for you on Lost. Man I really liked Eko I am upset that he was killed off. Well that means that Rose's husband is the last of the tail survivors.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 2, 2006)

Crothian said:
			
		

> The first time they were in Pearl I think they just turned on a monitor.  THey didn't try to get feeds from other places.




I don't think that they searched for a feed, when they turned on the monitor the hatch is what was displayed.



			
				crothian said:
			
		

> Nice episode.  Sad to see Echo go, he was one of the better characters.  So, are the Others really divided or is this just another way to mess with Jack's head?




I think they are just trying to mess with Jack's head.


----------



## CrusaderX (Nov 2, 2006)

I think this is the first time we've seen the smoke get really really violent.  It grabbed Locke before, but after seeing what it did to Eko, I think it's safe to say that smokey the monster crushed the airplane pilot to a pulp in the very first episode.  Which was a main theory all along, but now that theory just grew stronger.

It's sad to see Eko go, but I'm more curious as to why smokey killed him now, and not before, when they met face to face.  I'm hoping there's a good reason, rather than the deaths just being random.

This episode also seems to strongly imply that smokey the monster may be responsible for the hallucinations on the island - from Eko's brother to Jack's dad and probably even Kate's horse.   And again, I'm really hoping there's a good answer as to "how" and "why" this thing is doing all of this.   Because the ultimate revelation of this monster is going to either make or break this show for alot of people.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Nov 2, 2006)

Honestly, I was a little disappointed in this episode.  It wasn't any one thing, I can't really put my finger on it.

First off, I loved Eko, so that stunk.  Eko was a great contrast to Locke and Jack, with regards to religion.  Also, I wasn't too thrilled with his flashbacks... I felt Eko had a lot more story in him.  Of course, from what I've heard it's because AAA wanted to move on to other projects (and yes, I knew ahead of time), so it wasn't really a writing thing.  Except the fact that his flashbacks were pretty blah this episode.  Still, he went out standing, so points for that.

Nikki and Paulo bug me to no end.  Nikki is like they decided they still wanted Shannon on the show, and so they needed to make a new character that isn't her, but almost just like her.  Grrr.  Also, I really don't understand why they couldn't have used Charlie instead of Paulo.  I wouldn't have minded, if it weren't that the part and lines were a perfect fit for Charlie.  So I'm big on the whole dislike-bandwagon so far.

Honestly, as I think about it, those were the two big things that bothered me.

Aside from his flashback episode, I've been loving Jack this season.  I think it's because he doesn't just deal with Kate and Sawyer all the time.  I have to honestly say, after that scene with Juliet and the video, I am really excited for next week's episode, and that hasn't happened in a while.

I completely called Yemi being a manifestation on the smoke-monster.  I know the writers have said we've seen it before and not noticed it - obviously, this explains a lot of the whole "visions" thing.  It does make me wonder about Walt though - did Shannon and Sayid really see him, or was that the monster?  Also, I loved how the monster had an almost humanoid form (clue?).  The first thing I thought of was an air elemental.  Anyway, kudos to the Lost staff for actually moving that forward.  Hopefully we get more on that front next year.

Which Others are with Juliet?  I'm guessing at least Tom/Zeke (I always think of him as Zeke).

Finally, Eko's death scene was great, and he died standing and (relatively) fighting, which was completely appropriate.

Okay, I do know what bugged me - a lack of Claire.  Juliet is hot, but she's no Claire.


----------



## David Howery (Nov 2, 2006)

ah, Juliette.... is she for real, or is this all part of some master plan?  I'm leading towards the master plan.  I think if it comes down to it, Jack will operate and try to save his life.... doctors seem to take that Hippocratic oath seriously....

and who was the guy in the eyepatch?  Someone on the mainland somewhere?


----------



## Banshee16 (Nov 2, 2006)

Ambrus said:
			
		

> Who are these mysterious losties on the beach who insist on talking out loud and acting like primary characters?!? Didn't they read the mute tertiary character memo?




I was figuring they're either red shirts, or possibly they'll be introduced and become more prominent characters on the show....it's an easy way to introduce new characters....we know how many survivors there are, but they've only really focused on how many?  12?  In the last few episodes (counting from the end of last season) how many characters have died?  Eventually they'll run out of characters, so this is maybe how they'll get new characters into the cast..

Banshee


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (Nov 2, 2006)

Opps. Double post.


----------



## Banshee16 (Nov 2, 2006)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Well it seems we know the formula to being killed off on this show. You get arrested for DUI in Hawaii and that is a death sentence for you on Lost. Man I really liked Eko I am upset that he was killed off. Well that means that Rose's husband is the last of the tail survivors.




Did Eko's actor get caught for DUI also?  I hadn't heard about that..

Banshee


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (Nov 2, 2006)

Good to see Lock back in form after so much wandering.

Eko's death felt arbitrary. But at least the Jabberwocky is back.

Nikki and Paulo bug me too - why don't the writers use the characters they've created rather than create more and expect us to care? Why did Nikki and Paulo and have to go on the little trip rather than the increasingly ignored Hurley and Charlie?

So, at least one other hatch is seeing some kind of use.

Good Jack episode.

But Benry either knows what is going on and will put a stop to it the same way he put a stop to Sawyer's plan. Or it is all his idea.

Judging by the commercials, Sawyer and Kate get busy next week. 

Is next week the last episode before the 147 week break?


----------



## Ambrus (Nov 2, 2006)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Is next week the last episode before the 147 week break?



Yup. :\


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Nov 2, 2006)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> It's sad to see Eko go, but I'm more curious as to why smokey killed him now, and not before, when they met face to face.  I'm hoping there's a good reason, rather than the deaths just being random.




I wouldn't be surprised to learn it is somehow connected with the whole Others "good/bad" list idea. The last thing he shared with Smokey before he was crushed was that he wasn't repentant for the deaths he'd caused in the past. The previous time that he and Smokey had met, there were flashes of images of Eko's past in the creature, and he seemed to still harbor dreams of repentance at the time (the "Jesus stick", working on the church, etc.)

Which was actually one of the things that bugged me here, that Eko didn't seem as repentant as he did all of last season. 

Anyway, I was disappointed in such a waste of a good character. Eko brought so much to the show last season, and he had so much more to contribute, unlike, say... Claire, who- now that she's given birth- is about as useful to the show as she had been before. Which is to say, not at all.

The life and death of Eko episode seemed rather pointless, all told. I liked it (aside from the death, that is) but it just didn't seem to be necessary to end it like this.

Actually, just one more gripe about this episode. In the beginning, when Juliette sees Jack on the beach, she asks "He let you come outside?" I just wanted Jack to say something smartassed like, "No, I broke out and cleverly disguised myself as one of the mourners at the funeral." I can't stand it in real life when people ask questions to which the answers are self-evident, and especially in television when words are at a premium.

As to Jack and Ben and Juliette- frankly, I think the best thing Jack can do at this point is refuse to do the surgery. On the one hand, if he does it and saves Ben's life, he's still a prisoner and stuck with Ben. On the other, if he does it and kills Ben, then he's left with Juliette who is as much an unknown quantity as Ben. Clearly, she is not above attempting to manipulate others (even if she makes an effort to be up front about it), and I find it pretty reprehensible for someone to try and manipulate someone else into what is, basically, murder- regardless of the character of the person being murdered. She's no better than Ben as far as I can tell.


----------



## RigaMortus2 (Nov 2, 2006)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Is next week the last episode before the 147 week break?




Yeah.  I can't wait for next week.  Going to be a Kate flashback, and can't wait to see Nathan Fillion guest star


----------



## TogaMario (Nov 2, 2006)

It would be amazingly funny if Benry wasn't lying when he said he wasn't a badguy, but Juliet certainly seems like the clever type herself. I think that Juliet wants command, and she was just waiting for Benry to be caught off-guard by a situation. Maybe it's her way of payback for Benry shrugging her possible loss of life when Jack tried to escape. Oh, it's gettin' good.

Strangely, I was very satisfied when Eko sliced up those wannabe's in the church. His vigilante streak was really popular with me and my wife. A very deep chaotic good character.

I'm also under the impression that the new Lost cast additions are trying too hard to establish characters too early, with too little information and screen time.

I'm curious how Sawyer's going to act now that he's been shown the reveals of last episode, and if it'll be the way Benry intended.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Nov 2, 2006)

I was happy to see Jack wrote at his IQ and thinking.  Jullette is a killer but is she evil, I think Benry is and I do think she want control, does she want Benry dead maybe.  

Ben by telling Jack that she looked like his wife cause the connection, it was a trigger.  I just don't trust the group.  I don't think Jack can kill anyone, he is a healer.  

As for the two newbies; just there is bounce ideas off of and see if their threads work in case they have to get rid of another person or two.  You can always have money issues with a star or conflicts.  Bringing in a couple of news characters, means not everything is going to happen to the central cast and you can kill someone.


----------



## xmanii (Nov 2, 2006)

Jack has killed though, when he killed the marshal.


----------



## Ambrus (Nov 2, 2006)

xmanii said:
			
		

> Jack has killed though, when he killed the marshal.



Though Jack first tried everything he could to save the marshal. In the end it was a mercy killing. Though in the preview for next week they showed Jack refusing to help Benry (and being rather cruel about it as well).


----------



## EricNoah (Nov 2, 2006)

That was a great episode -- good to have some of the supernatural stuff back in the picture.  And the scene with the TV/video was awesome.  I don't mind characters dying -- they seem to have a way of coming back, at least in flashbacks or whatever.  

I feel like the three captives have a hitherto unrevealed ace up their sleeves -- just before the bags went over their heads in the last season finale they gave each other this look.  And Jack had just prior given a speech about how he wouldn't lead them over there without a plan.  And I thought Michael gave them a look too.  

The hiatus is going to suuuuuuuck!


----------



## EricNoah (Nov 2, 2006)

Ambrus said:
			
		

> Though in the preview for next week they showed Jack refusing to help Benry (and being rather cruel about it as well).




I bet that's just to keep it looking realistic -- so he doesn't look "too eager".


----------



## RangerWickett (Nov 2, 2006)

If the actor wanted to leave, I'm okay with that, but I didn't want Eko to die. Also, it bugs me that if he hadn't gone chasing after his brother's apparition the second time, he would have survived. The smoke monster only attacked him when he pursued.

Dammit, they need to sign longer contracts with these f***in' actors. And they have dropped the ball several times by hinting at awesome things ("We're going to have a Locke problem," "I need you to help make me an army," etc.) and then not following through.

What would have made me happy with this episode would have been Locke getting to Eko while the monster is still attacking him, and having something dramatic happen there.

And which Emi's were hallucinations and which were smoke monsters? The one in the tent? The one amid the flowers? And why did the writers go to all the trouble to have Locke dramatically rescue Eko only to have him go out like this? At the very least, let Eko win some points for the home team. Grar. I gnash my teeth.

I've liked all the episodes this seasons, except this one.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 2, 2006)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> I think this is the first time we've seen the smoke get really really violent.  It grabbed Locke before, but after seeing what it did to Eko, I think it's safe to say that smokey the monster crushed the airplane pilot to a pulp in the very first episode.  Which was a main theory all along, but now that theory just grew stronger.
> 
> It's sad to see Eko go, but I'm more curious as to why smokey killed him now, and not before, when they met face to face.  I'm hoping there's a good reason, rather than the deaths just being random.
> 
> This episode also seems to strongly imply that smokey the monster may be responsible for the hallucinations on the island - from Eko's brother to Jack's dad and probably even Kate's horse.   And again, I'm really hoping there's a good answer as to "how" and "why" this thing is doing all of this.   Because the ultimate revelation of this monster is going to either make or break this show for alot of people.




I think that smokey didn't kill him before because the was a change he would confess his sins, remember it showed his flashes of his past in the smoke. When he knelt before his brother and said "I have no sins to confess" you could tell it pissed off smokey. I do agree with you that if they don't explain smokey right it will break the show for alot of people. Which I think will be hard for the writers since they say every thing on this island can be explained in a scientific way.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Nov 2, 2006)

TogaMario said:
			
		

> Strangely, I was very satisfied when Eko sliced up those wannabe's in the church. His vigilante streak was really popular with me and my wife. A very deep chaotic good character.




I liked Eko too, in large part because he did seem to bring an element of religious complexity to the show. I think what disappointed me, though, was that the flashbacks revealed him to be, not simply morally flawed, but morally reprehensible!

1) He enlists his priest brother in a plot to smuggle herione (what does it say about Yemi that he agrees?).

2) He masquerades as a priest.

3) When he finds out that the vaccines sell for a very high price on the black market, he tries to sell them preemptively, thus leaving the village at the mercy of the smugglers.

4) He murders three men in the Church, and then abandons the village.

There's no moral ambiguity here. Eko is genuinely an evil person. Chaotic evil, even. And this runs contrary to how he was portrayed last season. You knew he had a back story (no priest I know can kill two men with his bare hands!), but figured that he had gone from bad to good. Now we see that he was always bad all the way down, and it just doesn't fit with what we've seen before.

It seems that what the show is doing is getting us invested in each of these characters, and then, one by one, betraying us by showing us that not only are they flawed, but each one will be revealed as DEEPLY corrupt, which may indeed have been the plan all along.

Consider:

1) Eko -- serious bad person.
2) Sun -- has affairs, may have murdered someone.
3) Sawyer -- murderer.
4) Kate -- possible murderer.
5) Jack -- I think the full depth of his corruption has yet to be revealed.
6) Locke -- It remains to be seen, but I don't think he's done with that undercover agent.

Of course, there are a lot of other characters, and it's hard to see how they could ALL be that bad, but maybe that feeds back to the "good person/bad person" theme once more.

Am I missing something here? It's true I don't watch the show as religiously as I used to, but this is what I'm getting. Maybe it really is Purgatory, not in the literal sense, but in a metaphorical sense: A place where people can confront their sins and "purge" themselves of their corruption.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Nov 2, 2006)

So, it is possible that there are two monsters?  The smoke and then one that takes the form of someone in the past of the person? 

1) Eko -- serious bad person - yep
2) Sun -- has affairs, may have murdered someone - did when she shot the other!
3) Sawyer -- murderer and then some.
4) Kate -- murderer - she killed her step-father aka real father.
5) Jack -- I think the full depth of his corruption has yet to be revealed - naa, he has just lost his faith, once he gets that back, which I think we saw in this one.  
6) Locke -- It remains to be seen, but I don't think he's done with that undercover agent.  I think he has found his faith, which was lost.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 2, 2006)

David Howery said:
			
		

> ah, Juliette.... is she for real, or is this all part of some master plan?  I'm leading towards the master plan.  I think if it comes down to it, Jack will operate and try to save his life.... doctors seem to take that Hippocratic oath seriously....
> 
> and who was the guy in the eyepatch?  Someone on the mainland somewhere?




I agree that there still is a  master plan to break Jack. I think Benry had that conversation with him to ball rolling in Jack's head that maybe there could be an accident durring surgery. Then Juliette comes in asking for him to botch the surgery, now if Jack let's Benry die, then the others have won. If he saves Benry then others have won as well, becaue they got him to help them.


----------



## Aaron2 (Nov 2, 2006)

Remus Lupin said:
			
		

> 4) Kate -- possible murderer.



Didn't Kate blow up her stepfather?

Also, what happened to Locke rushing out to rescue Jack? Did he even try?

One thing that bugs me. If Ben knew that he had a spinal tumor before the Losties show up, why didn't he just walk up to the beach on the first day and ask Jack to perform surgery? Jack would have eagerly done that just for information about the island. Why go through all of the trouble of killing people, kidnapping babies, etc to "trick" Jack into doing it? He could have asked when he was captured and would have easily gotten Jack's cooperation in return for Walt (whom they let go anyway). I just don't see how the writers can resolve all these inconsistancies with any semblance of logic.


Aaron


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 2, 2006)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> And which Emi's were hallucinations and which were smoke monsters? The one in the tent? The one amid the flowers? And why did the writers go to all the trouble to have Locke dramatically rescue Eko only to have him go out like this? At the very least, let Eko win some points for the home team. Grar. I gnash my teeth.
> 
> I've liked all the episodes this seasons, except this one.




I think all the Yemi's were the smoke monster. We know that smokey know about their past, seen in the flashes last Eko encountered it, and now it appears to be able to take the form of people. As some one else here said, everyone's hollucinations may actually be a manifestation of the smoke monster.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 2, 2006)

Aaron2 said:
			
		

> Didn't Kate blow up her stepfather?
> 
> Also, what happened to Locke rushing out to rescue Jack? Did he even try?
> 
> ...




I know Ben said that two days after he was found to have a tumor that a spinal surgen fell from the sky.  But I don't think Ben was being literal here. Yeah Jack may have fallen from the  sky two days after he found out about the cancer, but it may have taken a few days or weeks to figure out that one the survivors was a spinal surgen.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 2, 2006)

Remus Lupin said:
			
		

> 4) He murders three men in the Church, and then abandons the village.



 I don't he abandoned the village they basicly booted him out.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Nov 2, 2006)

Aaron2 said:
			
		

> One thing that bugs me. If Ben knew that he had a spinal tumor before the Losties show up, why didn't he just walk up to the beach on the first day and ask Jack to perform surgery? Jack would have eagerly done that just for information about the island. Why go through all of the trouble of killing people, kidnapping babies, etc to "trick" Jack into doing it? He could have asked when he was captured and would have easily gotten Jack's cooperation in return for Walt (whom they let go anyway). I just don't see how the writers can resolve all these inconsistancies with any semblance of logic.
> 
> 
> Aaron




This is why I see LOST more like the Prisoner with every show.  The people don't trust outsiders, they have to get their names, run background checks on them and then process them.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Nov 2, 2006)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> I don't he abandoned the village they basicly booted him out.



No, he was leaving to go to London, the village closed down the church because of his actions.


----------



## ShinHakkaider (Nov 2, 2006)

Remus Lupin said:
			
		

> I liked Eko too, in large part because he did seem to bring an element of religious complexity to the show. I think what disappointed me, though, was that the flashbacks revealed him to be, not simply morally flawed, but morally reprehensible!
> 
> 1) He enlists his priest brother in a plot to smuggle herione (what does it say about Yemi that he agrees?).
> 
> ...




The first three things youre on point. 

The last however...

Those men were going to cut off his hands effectively maiming him. 
Had he resisted even a little, despite what the lead guy said, they probably would have killed him and if not him another villager. I'm sorry but Eko wasnt evil for killing those men, he pretty much killed them in self defense. There were no police to go to and even if there were who's to say that theyre any less corrupt than those dealers? 

Nope, the other stuff shows that Eko was a typical criminal, the fourth shows that he knows how to defend himself when a situation goes bad. Evil? I dont think so.


----------



## ShinHakkaider (Nov 2, 2006)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> So, it is possible that there are two monsters?  The smoke and then one that takes the form of someone in the past of the person?
> 
> 1) Eko -- serious bad person - yep
> 2) Sun -- has affairs, may have murdered someone - did when she shot the other!
> ...




1) Eko -- Drug Smuggler, killed in men in self defense.
2) Sun -- Adulterer, Killed someone in self defense (Arguable)
3) Sawyer -- Premeditated murder, Con man
4) Kate -- Premeditated murder, thief
5) Jack -- Crisis of Faith...AT BEST.
6) Locke -- Struggling with anger...we'll see if the undercover agent thing leads to what put him in that chair.

I was a little uncomfortable with Eko being declared as "EVIL" and a "BAD PERSON" while the other characters got off with a  generic "murderer" label. Eko, like the rest of the characters on this show are a little more complex than that. The entire reason why Eko became what he became was to PROTECT HIS BROTHER. This is something a few of you seem more than willing to glaze over in lieu of just declaring him some kind of monster. Obviously, Sawyer, Kate and Sun dont get judged quite that harshly...

On another note: Great going writers of LOST. Now all of the black male characters are either dead or gone. Thanks a alot...


----------



## Barak (Nov 2, 2006)

1-Ben's best chance at survival is if Jack goes with Juliette's plan.  Let's face it, everyone Jack has tried to save since coming to the Island died, so maybe if he tries to kill Ben, he'll save him! (yes, this is tongue-in-cheek.

2-Until we know Smokey's purpose, it's hard to say why he/it killed Eko.  Sure, it might be because he refused to confess/repent (the most obvious, but not my favorite), -but- it could be because he finally came to peace with his past.  Pretty much every castaway has at least one thing in their past they regret, that we know of.  The purpose of the Island is Redemption.  Maybe by becoming at peace with himself, Eko finished what he was supposed to do on the Island?

3-At this point, Ben seems like a better person than Juliette.  Of course, until we learn the purpose of The Others, it's not set in stone, but..  Geez.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (Nov 2, 2006)

Benry’s actions, and the actions of The Others, make sense – or as much sense as they can – if you realize they are operating like some kind of cult. On the face of it they are not being logical. However, logic is not an issue for them. Ideological obedience is important to them. Benry’s the one with the tumor, the one who is dying. Yet it was so important to him that Jack do the surgery because Benry had broken Jack, they he had people killed, kidnapped and put his own life in jeopardy.

I’m not convinced the Jabberwocky (i.e. smoke monster) and who or what creates the visions are identical. After Yemi vanished for the last time, it took several beats before the Jabberwocky showed up, and then it was off to the side behind some bushes. Yemi did not dissolve into smoke and attack Eko.

A lot of the shows integrity will depend on how they writers and producers handle resolving the Jabberwocky and Benry.

Who gets the flash backs next week?

And, who else is going to die?

P.S. It was a pity to see Eko go. Of all his actions, I had the least trouble with his killing the smugglers in the church and thought the closing of the church was an overreaction on part of the villagers – and the writers for that matter. However, his sudden lack of repentance, compared to his season long repentance last year, felt inconsistent.

If we assume the characters are on the island for punishment and repentance, and they are punished with death for failure to repent, then what about Libby, Boone, Shannon, Scott, the woman who downed, the man sucked into the jet engine, and the 100+ people killed in the crash itself? 

This theory assumes they were all evil and deserving of punishment and death. But where is the evidence? What did Shannon and Boone do that warranted their fates? Being a kept woman and gullible – those then are damning sins?

The alternative is that they are all being ground into so much rotting meat just so things are cool for a few people.

Sun’s shooting of the Other woman in the boat was perfectly justified – she was facing capture and defended herself, but only after she ask to be let go and was told that was not going to happen. Yet she is condemned as a murder for it.

In a somewhat similar fashion, Jack is endlessly told to stop, give up and let go. He’s a doctor and his refuse to do that helps save lives, including Charlie’s and Sawyer’s - and helping his ex-wife walk again.

This seems to equate morality with acting like a sheep – you are only moral if you meekly let the world act upon you, beat and abuse you and generally use you up.

(Spits)

So, I wonder what next weeks episode is going to be like?

P.P.S. The show does seem to be getting rid of the minority characters; Hispanic Ana, Black Michael, Black Walt, Black Eko. I wonder when Sayid is gonna die?


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 2, 2006)

I think it was brought up on another thread ealier in the season on how the others got all this info on the survivors. And it just dawned on me. The others obviously have contact with the outside world, which means that when the plane crashed they most likely were able to get news feeds about the crash and able to get their hands on a passenger list. From there with their spies they can find out who survived and then run backround checks on all of them. And with Hanso foundations resources they could dig faily deep into their past.


----------



## Barak (Nov 2, 2006)

Paolo is brazilian (well, the actor who plays him is brazilian, anyway).  Hurley is mexican.  Walt and Michael aren't dead..  And I believe Walt is rumored to come back at some point.  Rose is black, but arguably not a major character. Also Charley is a brit..  Isn't that a minority?   

Oh and next week is Kate's flashback.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Nov 2, 2006)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> I was a little uncomfortable with Eko being declared as "EVIL" and a "BAD PERSON" while the other characters got off with a  generic "murderer" label. Eko, like the rest of the characters on this show are a little more complex than that. The entire reason why Eko became what he became was to PROTECT HIS BROTHER. This is something a few of you seem more than willing to glaze over in lieu of just declaring him some kind of monster. Obviously, Sawyer, Kate and Sun dont get judged quite that harshly...
> 
> On another note: Great going writers of LOST. Now all of the black male characters are either dead or gone. Thanks a alot...



Eko was show to be a killer, he killed to save his brother as a kids but also last season shows him killing other drug dealers as part of his business (cut their throats while making a deal), then the others on the beach (did he have to kill them), and now more from his past.  Eko was a very bad man, that chose killing to resolve problems and had no regrets.  

Sun, may be up there to me, we just don't have all the info on her.  

Sawyer has always been a bad guy to me, also no regrets.


----------



## Barak (Nov 2, 2006)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> Eko was show to be a killer, he killed to save his brother as a kids but also last season shows him killing other drug dealers as part of his business (cut their throats while making a deal), then the others on the beach (did he have to kill them), and now more from his past.  Eko was a very bad man, that chose killing to resolve problems and had no regrets.




While maybe to you he didn't have to kill the others on the beach, I'd say going on a 40 days self-imposed mute state while carving the stick as a direct rection to the killing shows regret.


----------



## Brown Jenkin (Nov 2, 2006)

Remus Lupin said:
			
		

> 1) Eko -- serious bad person.
> 2) Sun -- has affairs, may have murdered someone.
> 3) Sawyer -- murderer.
> 4) Kate -- possible murderer.
> ...




7) Jin -- Organized crime muscle
8) Desmond -- He was in jail for something
9) Charlie -- Drug addict, liar, attack on Sun
10) Shannon -- Incest, lying, stealing, Drugs
11) Boone -- Incest, violence
11) Michael -- Murderer
12) Syid -- Torturer
13) Anna-Lucia -- Murderer

So far the only non-bad characters that I can think of are:
a) Walt
b) Claire
c) Rose
d) Bernard
e) Libby - Killed before her lies to hurley were fully explored
f) Jack - We shall still see


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 2, 2006)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> ce
> 11) Michael -- Murderer




I am drawing a total blank who did Michael murder?

EDIT: DOH I just remembered who.


----------



## Barak (Nov 2, 2006)

1- you're missing Hurley in your list.

2-While I agree that incest is morally wrong, both Boone-Shannon could just as easily be victims of it as perpetrators.  And if we go with moral wrong, Claire had a out-of-wedlock pregnancy.  

3-Desmond was pretty much falsely imprisoned by Mr Dharma.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 2, 2006)

Can it be called incest when you are not related by blood?  One's parent married the others parent. They were step siblings weren't they?


----------



## S. Baldrick (Nov 2, 2006)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Did Eko's actor get caught for DUI also?  I hadn't heard about that..
> 
> Banshee




Actually, I he was arrested for driving without a license and disobeying a police officer, not a DUI (which, in my opinion, is far more serious offense).  See link for details:

http://starbulletin.com/2006/09/05/news/story01.html

He was cleared of charges when he proved that he did have a license.


----------



## Arnwyn (Nov 2, 2006)

Huh. So that's what it's like to have my time wasted. I haven't felt that way since the X-Files, and the feeling is as unpleasant as I remembered it. I found this to be a pretty stinky episode. Eko dying was lame, and felt entirely arbitrary. He actions and words also didn't feel proper to the character as he was previously presented. What was the point of him? He and his backstory went nowhere. What a waste of time. (Though I do undersand if the actor wanted to do different things - but it still doesn't stop the results from sucking.)

Oh, and what's up with the red shirts talking? D)

Nice to see lots of the smoke monster, though. I did enjoy those sequences very much. Good stuff.



			
				LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> First off, I loved Eko, so that stunk.  Eko was a great contrast to Locke and Jack, with regards to religion.  Also, I wasn't too thrilled with his flashbacks... I felt Eko had a lot more story in him.  Of course, from what I've heard it's because AAA wanted to move on to other projects (and yes, I knew ahead of time), so it wasn't really a writing thing.  Except the fact that his flashbacks were pretty blah this episode.  Still, he went out standing, so points for that.



Yeah. I agree with that.



			
				Barak said:
			
		

> 2-While I agree that incest is morally wrong, both Boone-Shannon could just as easily be victims of it as perpetrators.



Is it still considered "incest" when they're step-siblings (ie. no blood relation)?


----------



## Barak (Nov 2, 2006)

Well there's that too.  But while it may change thinsg legally, morally it's still messed up (They -were- raised as siblings, right?  I forgot)


----------



## Brown Jenkin (Nov 2, 2006)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> Is it still considered "incest" when they're step-siblings (ie. no blood relation)?




I would say so. The blood thing is what causes genetic problems but otherwise adopted children could moraly sleep together. As with Eko, the island does seem to consider morality fairly strictly as well.

Additionally there was lots of other lying, cheating and stealing going on with regards to the parents.


----------



## occam (Nov 2, 2006)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> And why did the writers go to all the trouble to have Locke dramatically rescue Eko only to have him go out like this?




Agreed, it seems like a waste of time. Unless the hunt for Eko was important for some other reason, but so far it doesn't really seem like it.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Nov 2, 2006)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> 1)I was a little uncomfortable with Eko being declared as "EVIL" and a "BAD PERSON" while the other characters got off with a  generic "murderer" label. Eko, like the rest of the characters on this show are a little more complex than that. The entire reason why Eko became what he became was to PROTECT HIS BROTHER. This is something a few of you seem more than willing to glaze over in lieu of just declaring him some kind of monster. Obviously, Sawyer, Kate and Sun dont get judged quite that harshly




I'm sorry, I didn't make my point as clearly as I intended. My point is that ALL of these characters will be revealed to be AS evil or MORE evil than Eko. What I'm saying is that they lure us into having sympathy with these characters, and then pull the rug out from under us by revealing them to be reprehensible.

As I said, I liked Eko, and I didn't like how filled in his back story and then gave him no more opportunities to let us know him. You're right, he initially protected his brother. Then he got him killed.


----------



## occam (Nov 2, 2006)

Remus Lupin said:
			
		

> I liked Eko too, in large part because he did seem to bring an element of religious complexity to the show. I think what disappointed me, though, was that the flashbacks revealed him to be, not simply morally flawed, but morally reprehensible!
> 
> 1) He enlists his priest brother in a plot to smuggle herione (what does it say about Yemi that he agrees?).




IIRC, I don't think Eko gave him much of a choice. And Eko did claim he was doing it (at least partially) to get the drugs away from their own people.



			
				Remus Lupin said:
			
		

> 2) He masquerades as a priest.




True, but at least earlier it seemed like he was trying to live up to the role.



			
				Remus Lupin said:
			
		

> 3) When he finds out that the vaccines sell for a very high price on the black market, he tries to sell them preemptively, thus leaving the village at the mercy of the smugglers.




I disagree with your evaluation of his intent here. My impression was that Eko knew that information about the sale would get back to the smugglers, and he was using it as a tactic to lure them into attacking him.



			
				Remus Lupin said:
			
		

> 4) He murders three men in the Church, and then abandons the village.




Yeah, well there is that.


----------



## occam (Nov 2, 2006)

Aaron2 said:
			
		

> One thing that bugs me. If Ben knew that he had a spinal tumor before the Losties show up, why didn't he just walk up to the beach on the first day and ask Jack to perform surgery? Jack would have eagerly done that just for information about the island. Why go through all of the trouble of killing people, kidnapping babies, etc to "trick" Jack into doing it? He could have asked when he was captured and would have easily gotten Jack's cooperation in return for Walt (whom they let go anyway). I just don't see how the writers can resolve all these inconsistancies with any semblance of logic.




Yeah, that made no sense at all. As a doctor, and knowing his character, Jack would've felt ethically and morally obligated to help if they'd just asked. The question is whether this bogus motive is a sign of:


The Others' continuing attempt to manipulate Jack with lies; or,
Terrible writing.

I sure hope it's the first one.


----------



## Barak (Nov 2, 2006)

Well, while the others seems to be just as well informed as us, or better, on _researchable_ stuff (IE: He's a spinal surgeon), they do not have the magical ability of knowing their character like we do.  

And before someone brings up Sawyer being a con-man, that is easily demonstrable through documented stuff.


----------



## Demmero (Nov 2, 2006)

occam said:
			
		

> Yeah, that made no sense at all. As a doctor, and knowing his character, Jack would've felt ethically and morally obligated to help if they'd just asked. The question is whether this bogus motive is a sign of:
> 
> 
> The Others' continuing attempt to manipulate Jack with lies; or,
> ...




The Others seem to have an agenda with the Losties far bigger than just kidnapping the spinal surgeon to operate on Ben.  They wanted to take the Losties' children, born or unborn (Walt and Clair'e baby), they wanted to make sure the Losties are unable to sail far from their island (blowing up the raft and stealing Desmond's boat)...they seem to want to play mind games with the survivors.

Coming right up to the survivors shortly after the plane crash would mean probably having to take other injured people to their medical base, answering questions about why they're on the island in the first place, and perhaps being asked to house and shelter the Losties.

Remember: we saw the Others witnessing the plane crash, and I don't remember any comment like, "Oh my God--they're all gonna be dead!"  Instead, we heard Ben calmly sending spies to infiltrate any survivors, and no one else saying a word about helping them instead.

A horrific plane crash, and not one word of compassion for the victims.  This is why I really can't buy into the Others as "the good guys."  They have secrets they value far above the potential loss of hundreds of lives of people in a plane crash.

So no, I don't think we can cry bad writing yet.  I think it's more mind games.  And I think those X-rays of Ben's tumor being posted right where Jack could see them reeks of a set-up.


----------



## Brown Jenkin (Nov 2, 2006)

Remus Lupin said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, I didn't make my point as clearly as I intended. My point is that ALL of these characters will be revealed to be AS evil or MORE evil than Eko. What I'm saying is that they lure us into having sympathy with these characters, and then pull the rug out from under us by revealing them to be reprehensible.




I'm with you here. I would be perfectly happy with Sawyer and Kate being offed at this point. Right now only Hurley and Locke hold any interest in me continueing with the show and they are both one flashback away from the writers turning thier characters on thier heads and making me not care about them either. I know evil characters are easier to write but I don't want a show that only has unlikeable characters and that is where this is fast heading.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 2, 2006)

Demmero said:
			
		

> And I think those X-rays of Ben's tumor being posted right where Jack could see them reeks of a set-up.




Could be, but why would they have the exchange between Ben and Juliette on the beach where he asks her why she told Jack they were his X-rays. Jack was not close enough to catch those comments and they would not have that scene in there just for our benifit.


----------



## RigaMortus2 (Nov 2, 2006)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> I know Ben said that two days after he was found to have a tumor that a spinal surgen fell from the sky.  But I don't think Ben was being literal here. Yeah Jack may have fallen from the  sky two days after he found out about the cancer, but it may have taken a few days or weeks to figure out that one the survivors was a spinal surgen.




But a spinal surgeon DID fall from the sky.  How more literal can you get?  Sure it might have taken them days, even weeks, to research the fact that Jack is a spinal surgeon.  But that doesn't negate the fact that he fell from the sky after Benry found out he had a tumor.


----------



## RigaMortus2 (Nov 2, 2006)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Who gets the flash backs next week?




As I stated in Post 22



			
				RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Yeah.  I can't wait for next week.  Going to be a Kate flashback, and can't wait to see Nathan Fillion guest star


----------



## Demmero (Nov 2, 2006)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Could be, but why would they have the exchange between Ben and Juliette on the beach where he asks her why she told Jack they were his X-rays. Jack was not close enough to catch those comments and they would not have that scene in there just for our benifit.




Maybe Ben and/or Juliet are lying/playing mind games with one another as well as with Jack.  I agree that Jack couldn't have overheard their talk, but he was able to see their little confrontation and perhaps guess at what it was about.

That seems to be standard operating procedure for the Others: give the Losties just enough information (or misinformation) to make guesses, which usually turn out to be wrong or flawed in some way.


----------



## Fast Learner (Nov 2, 2006)

I think it would be best to not continue discussing what makes someone bad. I disagree seriously with the bulk of the characterization here, but expressing my opinions would just start a flamewar, I'm sure. I understand you're sort-of talking about how the Others might see them, but when words like "morals" and "ethics" get into it, there's a lot of personal perspective involved.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 3, 2006)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> But a spinal surgeon DID fall from the sky.  How more literal can you get?  Sure it might have taken them days, even weeks, to research the fact that Jack is a spinal surgeon.  But that doesn't negate the fact that he fell from the sky after Benry found out he had a tumor.




My response was to a comment made as to why Ben didn't go to the beach after the crash and ask for the spinal surgeon. I probably should not have used the word literal though.

Edit: see 2nd quote below.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Nov 3, 2006)

Aaron2 said:
			
		

> Also, what happened to Locke rushing out to rescue Jack? Did he even try?




Going to the Pearl is part of the plan to rescue Jack. They are hoping to get info on the other hatches, or a means of communicating with them or the Others.



> One thing that bugs me. If Ben knew that he had a spinal tumor before the Losties show up, why didn't he just walk up to the beach on the first day and ask Jack to perform surgery?




Well, to be fair, the Others didn't know who was on the plane until they went there (or seemingly so), so Ben wouldn't have known that Jack was a neurosurgeon until after he'd sent Ethan over there.

But once he found out, yeah- I heartily agree that it would have been a much better idea to just go over to the Lostaways with open arms, and he probably could have gotten Jack to operate then and there.

Pretty dumb to make enemies of them if he'd really known this all along.

I could see where it might have been a part of the plan to have Jack "see" the x-rays (since he did make the comment, "leave him there a little longer" after whatserface died- maybe hoping Jack would see the x-rays and "make the connection") but that theory was pretty well shot once Ben and Juliette had their little exchange about Jack seeing the x-rays.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Nov 3, 2006)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> The entire reason why Eko became what he became was to PROTECT HIS BROTHER. This is something a few of you seem more than willing to glaze over in lieu of just declaring him some kind of monster.




How many people died or were injured/destroyed by the drug smuggling that Eko was doing? 

Sure, the initial crime he did in order to protect his brother (which doesn't make it any less murder, but perhaps a bit more forgivable due to the circumstances), but all the rest- him going with the drug dealers and not only becoming one of them, but becoming their leader, I don't think you can really justify by him "protecting his brother." 

There are allowances in American law at least, for extenuating circumstances (such as him committing the first murder as a child, under duress, and in defense of his brother and fellow villagers), as well as even in last episode (I think self-defense would certainly be an arguable defense against killing those men), but for all the other crimes he has committed over the years? Drug-smuggling, violence, and who knows what else he may have done as a criminal. I think you may be letting him off a little too easily for those by using his protecting his brother defense.

That being said, the whole point about Eko that we came to learn last season was that he saw coming to the island as his second chance, a chance at redemption, and all the things he did were in pursuit of that. Last episode pretty much threw that all away right before they ended his life, which seemed rather abrupt and out of character to me, which is why I am disappointed.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Nov 3, 2006)

Barak said:
			
		

> 3-At this point, Ben seems like a better person than Juliette.  Of course, until we learn the purpose of The Others, it's not set in stone, but..  Geez.




I don't know that he seems like a better person- after all, he savagely beat Sawyer a couple of episodes ago, has had the castaways imprisoned and separated, admits to formulating a plan to manipulate them, and is the one who ordered Michael to take out Ana Lucia. At this point, I don't think either of them is a very good person, frankly.

Heck, Goodwin and Ethan both killed people, but at least they were willing to get their hands dirty and do it themselves, rather than try and pretend to some sort of moral superiority by not doing it themselves and getting someone else to do it in their name.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Nov 3, 2006)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> This theory assumes they were all evil and deserving of punishment and death. But where is the evidence? What did Shannon and Boone do that warranted their fates? Being a kept woman and gullible – those then are damning sins?




Shannon was a lot more than a "kept woman." She was a manipulator, who intentionally deceived and used men's feelings for her to get what she wanted. Pretty reprehensible in my book.

That being said, I don't buy into the theory that the purpose of the island is redemption. I think that might have something to do with what Smokey is doing, but I don't think there was any overarching goal to achieve that (possibly just faulty programming or something).

On another note- did anyone else have "Whatchoo talkin' bout, Willis?" moment when Ben mentioned that it was "no coincidence Juliette resembles your ex-wife" to Jack. Aside from being blondes, I don't see any resemblance between Elizabeth Mitchell and Julie Bowen. I'd certainly never mistake one for the other anyway.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Nov 3, 2006)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> 10) Shannon -- Incest, lying, stealing, Drugs
> 11) Boone -- Incest, violence




Is it really incest to sleep with an adopted or step-sibling?

[EDIT- I see I was beaten to the punch on this question.]


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Nov 3, 2006)

occam said:
			
		

> I disagree with your evaluation of his intent here. My impression was that Eko knew that information about the sale would get back to the smugglers, and he was using it as a tactic to lure them into attacking him.




That was my first impression as well, but just because it never crossed my mind to think that he might have been actually thinking of selling them himself. When it was brought up in this thread, well- now I'm no longer certain that he was just trying to draw the smugglers out.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Nov 3, 2006)

Barak said:
			
		

> Well there's that too.  But while it may change thinsg legally, morally it's still messed up (They -were- raised as siblings, right?  I forgot)




They were only raised together for a relatively short time- as I recall, Shannon was already well into her teens (maybe 15, 16?) by the time she and Boone's parents got married. I could be wrong (and it may be that it wasn't established yet), but I'm pretty sure that Boone was already a working adult when the two of them became siblings.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Nov 3, 2006)

Demmero said:
			
		

> The Others seem to have an agenda with the Losties far bigger than just kidnapping the spinal surgeon to operate on Ben.  They wanted to take the Losties' children, born or unborn (Walt and Clair'e baby), they wanted to make sure the Losties are unable to sail far from their island (blowing up the raft and stealing Desmond's boat)...they seem to want to play mind games with the survivors.




You know- I just had a thought. I wonder if the child kidnapping thing (Claire's baby, Alex) might have something to do with the Others needing to keep viable DNA sources in their little community. All this talk about the Shannon/Boone "incest" got me to thinking about the Others and degenerative disorders from inbreeding. If they kidnap children and indoctrinate them into their way of life from birth, then they keep gene pools from stagnating.


----------



## Brown Jenkin (Nov 3, 2006)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> On another note- did anyone else have "Whatchoo talkin' bout, Willis?" moment when Ben mentioned that it was "no coincidence Juliette resembles your ex-wife" to Jack. Aside from being blondes, I don't see any resemblance between Elizabeth Mitchell and Julie Bowen. I'd certainly never mistake one for the other anyway.




Given thier selection of a dozen women to choose from I guess that is the best they could do. Unless of course Juliette was recruited years ago to be there for Jack's interogation


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 3, 2006)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> I could see where it might have been a part of the plan to have Jack "see" the x-rays (since he did make the comment, "leave him there a little longer" after whatserface died- maybe hoping Jack would see the x-rays and "make the connection") but that theory was pretty well shot once Ben and Juliette had their little exchange about Jack seeing the x-rays.




Except that the X-rays were in the scrubbing in room while Jack was cuffed to the gurney with the body. Jack only saw the X-rays for the few minutes he was scrubbing in.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 3, 2006)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> I don't know that he seems like a better person- after all, he savagely beat Sawyer a couple of episodes ago, has had the castaways imprisoned and separated, admits to formulating a plan to manipulate them, and is the one who ordered Michael to take out Ana Lucia. At this point, I don't think either of them is a very good person, frankly.
> 
> Heck, Goodwin and Ethan both killed people, but at least they were willing to get their hands dirty and do it themselves, rather than try and pretend to some sort of moral superiority by not doing it themselves and getting someone else to do it in their name.




I don't think he was told to kill Ana Lucia. He was just told to free Benry. Killing Ana was his solution at freeing Benry


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 3, 2006)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> On another note- did anyone else have "Whatchoo talkin' bout, Willis?" moment when Ben mentioned that it was "no coincidence Juliette resembles your ex-wife" to Jack. Aside from being blondes, I don't see any resemblance between Elizabeth Mitchell and Julie Bowen. I'd certainly never mistake one for the other anyway.




Yeah, my wife and I looked at each other, she said Benry really is crazy if he thinks they look alike.


----------



## Barak (Nov 3, 2006)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Except that the X-rays were in the scrubbing in room while Jack was cuffed to the gurney with the body. Jack only saw the X-rays for the few minutes he was scrubbing in.




Plus..  What, they planned on having that chick get shot just to have a plausible excuse to bring Jack there?


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 3, 2006)

Speaking of the children and the other survivors the others capture or kidnapped. There has not been a single sign of them at all. Even in the background.

Now that I think about it, Sawyer and Kate were not the only ones breaking rocks a few weeks back. Did anyone notice if the stewardess was among them or any of the children?


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 3, 2006)

Barak said:
			
		

> Plus..  What, they planned on having that chick get shot just to have a plausible excuse to bring Jack there?




Exactly, but then again this is the others we are talking about here. Henry probably figured there might be a casualty, not her in specific, just some one.


----------



## GreyWanderer (Nov 3, 2006)

*The Creature*

When they brought Jack to the beach in that robe, I figured they either worshiped Cthuhlu, or were Scientologists. 

Anyway, I really thought Yemi/the cloud was Lucifer or Death.

Grey


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Nov 3, 2006)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Except that the X-rays were in the scrubbing in room while Jack was cuffed to the gurney with the body. Jack only saw the X-rays for the few minutes he was scrubbing in.




Ah- well, it wouldn't have fit with the little discussion between Juliette and Ben anyway.


----------



## RigaMortus2 (Nov 3, 2006)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> I don't know that he seems like a better person- after all, he savagely beat Sawyer a couple of episodes ago, has had the castaways imprisoned and separated, admits to formulating a plan to manipulate them, and is the one who ordered Michael to take out Ana Lucia. At this point, I don't think either of them is a very good person, frankly.




Ben/Henry never told/forced Michael to kill Anna-Lucia.  Michael did that on his own.  In fact, Michael doesn't even meet Ben/Henry untilAFTER he kills Anna Lucia (in order to rescue him).


----------



## RigaMortus2 (Nov 3, 2006)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> You know- I just had a thought. I wonder if the child kidnapping thing (Claire's baby, Alex) might have something to do with the Others needing to keep viable DNA sources in their little community. All this talk about the Shannon/Boone "incest" got me to thinking about the Others and degenerative disorders from inbreeding. If they kidnap children and indoctrinate them into their way of life from birth, then they keep gene pools from stagnating.




The theory is that the Others are sterile, and therefore can't have kids of their own, so they kidnap children to continue their utopian society.  Why do you think they have a fertility doctor?


----------



## RigaMortus2 (Nov 3, 2006)

Anyone else make the connection to the scene where Eko goes to the wreckage and removes the rock blocking the entrance to the plane where his brother's corpse was.  And his brother's corpse was gone.  Does this remind you of a certain historical figure who also rose from the dead?

Surprised no one mentioned this yet (unless I missed it).


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (Nov 3, 2006)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> But once he found out, yeah- I heartily agree that it would have been a much better idea to just go over to the Lostaways with open arms, and he probably could have gotten Jack to operate then and there.




*Repeating Myself From Above:* The actions of The Others, make sense – or as much sense as they can – if you realize they are operating like some kind of cult. On the face of it they are not being logical. However, logic is not an issue for them. Ideological obedience is important to them. Benry’s the one with the tumor, the one who is dying. Yet it was so important to him that Jack do the surgery because Benry had broken Jack, they he had people killed, kidnapped and put his own life in jeopardy.

Everyone’s lives matter to the Others only in so far as they play a part in Benry’s vanity melodrama, with him in the unquestionable role of God the Judge and Executioner.



			
				Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> …and is the one who ordered Michael to take out Ana Lucia.




Actually, that was never part of Benry’s plan. He expressly tells Michael on the docks that he was unhappy about the deal made. It was Miss Klue – absent this season, oddly enough – who made the deal with Mike to get Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley. And that deal never included the elimination of Ana. This is revealed in _Three Minutes_ and _Live Together, Die Alone_.



			
				Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Shannon was a lot more than a "kept woman." She was a manipulator, who intentionally deceived and used men's feelings for her to get what she wanted. Pretty reprehensible in my book.




Maybe. But she was not that person when she died.



			
				Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> …then the others on the beach (did he have to kill them)…




Most vexing of all this talk of who is and who is not evil, is the equation of passivity with moral and ethical integrity and evil with resistance and attempts at self determination. 

Eko had every right to defend himself – and that included the use of lethal force – against unknown attackers silently kidnapping him. To say that it was wrong for him to defend himself because he did not *know* they meant him harm is risible. 

That is the ethical system imposed upon sheep, pigs and cattle – not humans. To impose such a system on humans is to deliberately denigrate their worth as humans and a tacit creation of slavery.

However, Eko’s reversal from repentant man to unrepentant man was poorly handled by the writers.


----------



## occam (Nov 3, 2006)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> But a spinal surgeon DID fall from the sky.  How more literal can you get?  Sure it might have taken them days, even weeks, to research the fact that Jack is a spinal surgeon.  But that doesn't negate the fact that he fell from the sky after Benry found out he had a tumor.




It does seem an amazing coincidence... if you take the story of Benry's tumor at face value. Maybe he has a tumor, maybe he doesn't....

Don't trust anything the Others reveal. They've earned our distrust many times over.


----------



## Demmero (Nov 3, 2006)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Anyone else make the connection to the scene where Eko goes to the wreckage and removes the rock blocking the entrance to the plane where his brother's corpse was.  And his brother's corpse was gone.  Does this remind you of a certain historical figure who also rose from the dead?
> 
> Surprised no one mentioned this yet (unless I missed it).




Heh.  Nope, never thought of that.  I do remember Jack finding his father's coffin and discovering it was empty, though.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 3, 2006)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Anyone else make the connection to the scene where Eko goes to the wreckage and removes the rock blocking the entrance to the plane where his brother's corpse was.  And his brother's corpse was gone.  Does this remind you of a certain historical figure who also rose from the dead?
> 
> Surprised no one mentioned this yet (unless I missed it).



I did notice that too. I forgot all about it with Eko's death though


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Nov 3, 2006)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Most vexing of all this talk of who is and who is not evil, is the equation of passivity with moral and ethical integrity and evil with resistance and attempts at self determination.
> 
> Eko had every right to defend himself – and that included the use of lethal force – against unknown attackers silently kidnapping him. To say that it was wrong for him to defend himself because he did not *know* they meant him harm is risible.
> 
> ...




Right on all counts.  

I thought Eko's departure from the series was unsatisfying.  Will they now just gloss over the whole "how did the plane get here" question?  I enjoyed seeing Jack apparently come back to his senses and mess with Ben a bit.  

And Shannon and Boone were not blood relatives!  Its not incest to sleep with your hot step sister.


----------



## Arnwyn (Nov 3, 2006)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> On another note- did anyone else have "Whatchoo talkin' bout, Willis?" moment when Ben mentioned that it was "no coincidence Juliette resembles your ex-wife" to Jack. Aside from being blondes, I don't see any resemblance between Elizabeth Mitchell and Julie Bowen. I'd certainly never mistake one for the other anyway.



Yes, yes we did.

That was one of my "now the Others are just being stupid" moments.


----------



## Reynard (Nov 3, 2006)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Its not incest to sleep with your hot step sister.




Right.

Creepy, but not incest.


----------



## Andrew D. Gable (Nov 3, 2006)

When Charlie, Locke, and Eko emerged from the hatch, my GF had an idea about the whole "hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil" thing - Charlie couldn't hear, Locke couldn't talk, maybe you could say Eko sort of couldn't see (he kept his eyes closed most of the time).

Yeah, I don't like that Eko died either.  

My GF also brought up, when did Sayid and them get back?  Or was that at the end of last week - a little section was missing off our tape.

Patch on the monitor looked familiar, though I can't think of who it looked like.  Maybe I'm just thinking Number Two from Austin Powers.   Remember the glass eye the Tailies found in their hatch?  Wonder if it was his...


----------



## Barak (Nov 3, 2006)

Andrew D. Gable said:
			
		

> My GF also brought up, when did Sayid and them get back?  Or was that at the end of last week - a little section was missing off our tape.




That never was shown, but the timing works about right for them to have about just showed up, having left the beach where they were on foot.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Nov 3, 2006)

Andrew D. Gable said:
			
		

> Patch on the monitor looked familiar, though I can't think of who it looked like.  Maybe I'm just thinking Number Two from Austin Powers.




You didn't see the cup of Starbucks coffee in the background of that shot?


----------



## Hand of Evil (Nov 3, 2006)

Barak said:
			
		

> That never was shown, but the timing works about right for them to have about just showed up, having left the beach where they were on foot.



Which again shows they don't have to explain why they don't see another island.


----------

