# Favorite Tired ENWorld/D&D Argument?



## Tarrasque Wrangler (Apr 9, 2003)

Everyone loves the classics.  Which one is your favorite?


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## arwink (Apr 9, 2003)

I've always enjoyed the irony of the "It's not realistic" arguements.


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## EricNoah (Apr 9, 2003)

Hmmm ... we don't do off topic polls here on the boards.  This was a decision reached by the majority of EN World.  The only way this one can survive the axe is if it goes into the Meta forum where it is on topic.  So.....  away we go!


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## EricNoah (Apr 9, 2003)

As of today I am officially sick of the following terms:

munchkin
broken
snobbery
shaft
theurge
balanced
unbalanced
balance beam
whining
whiners
winos
metagaming
alignment
house rule -- no, wait, that one's ok
knickers
semprini


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Apr 9, 2003)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *Hmmm ... we don't do off topic polls here on the boards.  This was a decision reached by the majority of EN World.  The only way this one can survive the axe is if it goes into the Meta forum where it is on topic.  So.....  away we go! *




Whoops, forgot about Meta.  My bad.


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## EricNoah (Apr 9, 2003)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Whoops, forgot about Meta.  My bad. *




*shakes head sadly*

Everyone forgets about Meta...

*sniff, sniff*


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## Crothian (Apr 9, 2003)

I'm tired of Rants.  Rants never are productive.  People just complain and complain, but never really try to solve the problem.  The closest most people seem to get to solving a problem is by cutting it out completely, which to me is usually like tossing out the baby with the bathwater.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Apr 9, 2003)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *As of today I am officially sick of the following terms:
> 
> munchkin
> broken
> ...



Well, don't get your knickers in a twist over it.


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## arwink (Apr 9, 2003)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> *Well, don't get your knickers in a twist over it.
> *




i dunno, I think something like this could be a little more taunting:

"Come on, Eric, they're just words.  What kind of *snobbery* is this?  You're *whining* about other people's use of the english language.  

All these words only have negative meanings because that's what you attribute to them.  Sure, it's universally agreed that words like *theurge* and *semprini* mean something more capable of producing DM angst than they did a week a go, but is it the posters fault that the meanings got *broken* by WotC?  If you don't like what a word means, or the connotations attached, just *house rule* and quite being one of the *whiners* who sits around complaining that words like *munchkin* and *metagaming* are going to get the *shaft* in 3.5.  

Just train yourself to reinterpret these words as meaning "everything is cool.  Ohmmmm" and those ulcers will just drift away.  Language, meaning and interpretation are a playground, all you've got to do is learn to stay up on the *balance beam* and avoid the *winos* who lurk down the back.  It's not like everyone out there agrees on things like the interpretation of various *alignments*, or what may or may not be *balanced* or *unbalanced*.  If you've adapted to that, treat language the same way.  Rule 0 meaning, if you want.  Interpretation is in the eye of the beholders.  All in all, it's really not worth getting your *knickers* in a twist."

Of course, that could be seen as trying to hard


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## EricNoah (Apr 9, 2003)

arwink said:
			
		

> *Of course, that could be seen as trying to hard  *




"Dude, that totally smacks of effort!"

Seriously, though -- funny stuff!


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## Azlan (Apr 9, 2003)

Thing is, when someone who is new to these boards unknowingly brings up an agrument that has been "done to death", a lot of the jaded veterans here come at him like piranhas. The poor new guy is quickly reduced to bones by the camaraderie, the hindsight, and the honed rebuttals of the veterans.

You have to possess a pretty thick skin to hang in there and get past your initiatial hundred or so posts.

(But, really, I guess this pretty much goes for any message board.)


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## Darrin Drader (Apr 9, 2003)

What topic am I sick of? Dragon bashing! Its almost like every time someone mentions anything about a new dragon, someone goes on a quest to slay it. Come on people, just smile and be happy that we get a monthly dose of insightful articles, optional rules, and (very importantly for some people) a place for people who have never been published before to be published for the first time. 

Just give 'em a break.



			
				Azlan said:
			
		

> *Thing is, when someone who is new to these boards unknowingly brings up an agrument that has been "done to death", a lot of the jaded veterans here come at him like piranhas. The poor new guy is quickly reduced to bones by the camaraderie, the hindsight, and the honed rebuttals of the veterans.
> 
> You have to possess a pretty thick skin to hang in there and get past your initiatial hundred or so posts.*




Heh. What are you - new?


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## jdavis (Apr 9, 2003)

Sometimes I get tired of people not agreeing with me. I mean I know I'm right, they should have the decency to admit it.


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## Azlan (Apr 9, 2003)

Baraendur said:
			
		

> *Heh. What are you - new?  *




Not so new, but not yet a jaded veteran. I'm also pretty thick-skinned and, like yourself, a smart a**.


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## Darrin Drader (Apr 9, 2003)

jdavis said:
			
		

> *Sometimes I get tired of people not agreeing with me. I mean I know I'm right, they should have the decency to admit it.  *




I know that what you know is not right or on topic (at least not most of the time), therefore not agreeing and mocking your point of view is in my nature.

[Note to the mods - please don't censor my statement. This is a joke french-fry-head should get.]


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## Azlan (Apr 9, 2003)

Baraendur said:
			
		

> *This is a joke french-fry-head should get.] *




Oh, _that's_ what he is! I thought he was some kind of human Chita pet, with straw-like plant growth coming out of his head.

Duh.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Apr 9, 2003)

How could this thread have failed to list the most horrible thread of all!

The dreaded "How should I punish my Paladin PC?" discussion is the most horrible Tired Old Thread I know of.

Rivaled only by the pretenaturally recurrent "How much does alignment suck?" thread.


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## Darrin Drader (Apr 9, 2003)

Azlan said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Oh, that's what he is! I thought he was some kind of human Chita pet, with straw-like plant growth coming out of his head.
> 
> Duh.  *




It's one of the characters from Aqua Teen Hunger Force. Before you even ask, Aqua Teen Hunger Force is a cartoon on Adult Swim on the Cartoon Network. Still confused? Go here.http://www.adultswim.com/shows/athf/index.html


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## jdavis (Apr 9, 2003)

Baraendur said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I know that what you know is not right or on topic (at least not most of the time), therefore not agreeing and mocking your point of view is in my nature.
> 
> [Note to the mods - please don't censor my statement. This is a joke french-fry-head should get.] *




Ah a sneak attack and in Meta even, good thing I have a thick (and deep fried to perfection) skin. Would launch a all out counterstrike of smiley faces but I worry about those caught in the crossfire 

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Azlan 


Oh, that's what he is! I thought he was some kind of human Chita pet, with straw-like plant growth coming out of his head.

Duh.  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Funny thing is that I do sort of resemble Frylock, well with the exeption of the french fries and the red fry carton and the super powers and the lack of appendages. Ok I really look nothing like him. 

I do have some advice to all those new people who show up and post a "I hate _____" thread right off the bat. Don't start a fight unless your willing to stand in there with everybody's opinion. You only need that thick skin if you are looking to pick a fight. If you try to discuss things without ranting on how bad something is then you normally get a good conversation but if you start out with "I hate ______ and I think it needs to be changed/gotten rid of and I assume that everybody agrees with me" then you are begging for those harsh and well practiced replies. A rant begets a rant and a intelligent conversation begets a intelligent conversation, you don't need to have 200+ post to understand that.


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## Kesh (Apr 9, 2003)

I object to this blatant dermism! I have thin skin, and am proud of it! This requirement to have thick skin is highly inflammatory and insulting.

Plus, it hurts my feelings.


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## Gez (Apr 9, 2003)

Apostrophes for plural must die.

AoOs, not AoO's. PCs, not PC's. AoO's what ? AoO's AoE ? It's the threatened cases.

No, really, " 's " is either the contracted form of is, was, or has; or the genitive possession mark. It is never, never, never, never, never, never, never (one more time) never a plural. Never.

Hmm, so it's not D&D related. So what ? I see it all the times on D&D-related boards.


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## jdavis (Apr 9, 2003)

I's think's you's might's be's on's to's something's there's. 

Luckily my thick hide protects me from punctuation errors. It gives me a real advantage during Dermal warfare. Thick skin rules! 's's's's


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## haiiro (Apr 9, 2003)

Azlan said:
			
		

> *You have to possess a pretty thick skin to hang in there and get past your initiatial hundred or so posts. *




That depends what you do with your first hundred posts, and how long you lurked and poked around before posting in the first place. I don't think everyone considers what kind of first impression they're going to make on the boards, and coming out of the gate in fight mode seems like a good example of that. By and large, I've found this community to be very welcoming to newcomers -- which is one of the things I like about it.

Heck, I posted twice in my first 12 months as a member -- how's that for cautious lurking.


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## the Jester (Apr 9, 2003)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *As of today I am officially sick of the following terms:
> 
> ...knickers....*





How can you be sick of knickers??


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## Azlan (Apr 9, 2003)

Gez said:
			
		

> *Apostrophes for plural must die.
> 
> AoOs, not AoO's. PCs, not PC's. AoO's what ? AoO's AoE ? It's the threatened cases.
> 
> No, really, " 's " is either the contracted form of is, was, or has; or the genitive possession mark. It is never, never, never, never, never, never, never (one more time) never a plural. Never.*




But using an apostrophe for DM'ing is okay, huh?


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## EricNoah (Apr 9, 2003)

Gez said:
			
		

> *I see it all the times on D&D-related boards. *




That's "all the time" not "all the times" -- in this idiom, time is a collective substance like water.  But that's ok, we know your English is better than our French by about a factor of a million. 

BTW I think people, even educated people, use DM's and RPG's etc. to indicate plurals because they think that "s" might be seen as part of the abbreviation otherwise.


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## Mathew_Freeman (Apr 9, 2003)

I voted for Monks/Bards/Rangers suck, myself. The Ranger I can see is worth arguing about, but Bards and Monks are just as effective as anyone else if played properly.


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## Eridanis (Apr 9, 2003)

Gez said:
			
		

> *AoOs, not AoO's.*



What makes things even more confusing, is that it really should be A*s*oO - for "attack*s* of opportunity." 

Bless you for standing up for proper punctuation and grammar. I work for a magazine publisher, and sometime even they don't get it right. In printed products. Makes me shudder.

Edit: Oh, and I voted for "3.5 is evil." Nothing like thrashing around in the dark, looking for a fight on unknown ground.


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## Ravellion (Apr 9, 2003)

the Jester said:
			
		

> *How can you be sick of knickers??    *



Eric Noah goes Commando!

Rangers/Bards/Monks suck got my vote. Class bashing is always so much fun. Especially if you get the N00b DM banning the monk outright in his campaign not because of flavour issues, but because of balance issues. From looking at it on paper. Tssk Tssk.

Rav


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## Sixchan (Apr 10, 2003)

Azlan said:
			
		

> *Thing is, when someone who is new to these boards unknowingly brings up an agrument that has been "done to death", a lot of the jaded veterans here come at him like piranhas. The poor new guy is quickly reduced to bones by the camaraderie, the hindsight, and the honed rebuttals of the veterans.
> 
> You have to possess a pretty thick skin to hang in there and get past your initiatial hundred or so posts.
> 
> (But, really, I guess this pretty much goes for any message board.) *




I learned long ago that the best place to make your first post is in a humour thread.  Start with a joke, and it makes a much better impression on people.  Also, asking questions makes you seem like you are trying get help solving problems, instead of just complaining about them.  Then you move on to more serious comments, and then maybe posting threads that have complaints.  It's kinda like an online strategy game...


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## jdavis (Apr 10, 2003)

When you see a thread that starts out "I hate 3.5 edition....." or "I hate Bards....."  or "Drgaon magaizine sucks......." or any of the other known problem subjects and you look and see that the guy who posted it has one post then you start to wonder. If your first post is a all out attack on something then you probably are not here to join the community to start with, it's not all that uncommon to see a thread like that pop up, makes you wonder if it was a new person or just somebody trolling the board. Your going to need a lot more than some tough skin if you are going to come out of the gate by picking a fight.


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## Samnell (Apr 10, 2003)

I can't stand the fits of outrage that precede and follow every non-adventure WOTC release with mathematical precision.


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## Silver Moon (Apr 10, 2003)

jdavis said:
			
		

> *...makes you wonder if it was a new person or just somebody trolling the board. *




And we know that none of us would ever feed a troll.   

(Nice to see that all of the usual suspects found another silly thread to hang out in, and yes jdavis, we all know that you are always right.)


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## Mathew_Freeman (Apr 10, 2003)

Silver Moon said:
			
		

> *(Nice to see that all of the usual suspects found another silly thread to hang out in, and yes jdavis, we all know that you are always right.) *




The Usual Suspects? Hanging out? Silly thread?

Tsk. He says it like it's a bad thing.


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## Darrin Drader (Apr 11, 2003)

Silver Moon said:
			
		

> *
> (Nice to see that all of the usual suspects found another silly thread to hang out in, and yes jdavis, we all know that you are always right.) *




Hmm, I hope I'm not a usual suspect. I would never feed a troll.  

[Smiley barrage (since I'm not nearly so concerned with catching others in the crossfire).]


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## Gez (Apr 11, 2003)

jdavis said:
			
		

> *When you see a thread that starts out "I hate 3.5 edition....." or "I hate Bards....."  or "Drgaon magaizine sucks......." *




Or even "my hate of d02 know no limit!"


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## Gez (Apr 11, 2003)

Eridanis said:
			
		

> *Bless you for standing up for proper punctuation and grammar. I work for a magazine publisher, and sometime even they don't get it right. In printed products. Makes me shudder.*




Thanks ! Usually this kind of comment get answers like "you grammar nazi" rather than agreement.

Actually, one of the reasons I dislike these errors is that English isn't my first language. So when I see "their" or "there" instead of "they're" (or the reverse, or a similar error), I understand "their" or "there", get a meaningless sentence, and have to read again.

That said, I sometime make them myself, when I'm tired...


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## Henry (Apr 11, 2003)

Following Eric's list, is MY list of sickening words:

munchy
kiddie
diablo
twink
crunch
fluff
"soulless," in conjunction with "corporate"
hinky
overpowered
underpowered
taiwan
latex semi-gloss



And one of my _favorite_ terms:

"Wizards of the Cost," because Ryan Dancey said it first, totally by accident, at a time when people were lamenting that TSR was gone and people couldn't use T$R any more, and WotC had no S 's .


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## Robbert Raets (Apr 11, 2003)

Henry said:
			
		

> *And one of my favorite terms:
> "Wizards of the Cost," because Ryan Dancey said it first, totally by accident, at a time when people were lamenting that TSR was gone and people couldn't use T$R any more, and WotC had no S 's .  *




Yeah, that's lame. I prefer *L*izards of the Cost.....


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## jdavis (Apr 11, 2003)

I love all the "Wizards is out for your money" post, nah really, I was wondering why they don't just give stuff away. Funny thing about T$R is they didn't make any $. I guess it's just in people's nature to complain about money, but if they are not making money then they are going out of business. 

The I hate threads do spring up like clockwork though, every release of anything starts some kind of love/hate thread that all boils down to WOTC wanting our money.


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## orbitalfreak (Apr 11, 2003)

Henry said:
			
		

> *And one of my favorite terms:
> 
> "Wizards of the Cost," because Ryan Dancey said it first, totally by accident, at a time when people were lamenting that TSR was gone and people couldn't use T$R any more, and WotC had no S 's .  *




Why not use Wot¢?


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## Darrin Drader (Apr 11, 2003)

orbitalfreak said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Why not use Wot¢?  *




Cents instead of dollars. It makes it seem less insidious and more acceptable somehow.


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## Silver Moon (Apr 11, 2003)

Baraendur said:
			
		

> *Hmm, I hope I'm not a usual suspect. I would never feed a troll.  *



Of course you wouldn't, just as you wouldn't ever start a meta thread about trolls.


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## Gez (Apr 13, 2003)

I'm partial to Lizards on the Toast for WotC...

As for using $, it's still possible, actually: Wizard$ ¤f th€ ¢¤ast ? If there was a Y and a L in addition, in this name, I could have put the pound and yen signs as wells.


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## Krug (Apr 13, 2003)

I hate the Dungeon/Polyhedron threads that come up every time there's a new issue of the mag. Looks like we're goign to see it monthly now..


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## jdavis (Apr 14, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *I hate the Dungeon/Polyhedron threads that come up every time there's a new issue of the mag. Looks like we're goign to see it monthly now.. *




or the Fantasy Fiction doesn't belong in a Fantasy Gaming magazine threads. People act like this is a life or death situation instead of a minor annoyance.


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## Darrin Drader (Apr 14, 2003)

jdavis said:
			
		

> *
> or the Fantasy Fiction doesn't belong in a Fantasy Gaming magazine threads. People act like this is a life or death situation instead of a minor annoyance. *




I agree, it is a minor annoyance. On one hand its a good thing that people do get so worked up about it because it means that they're actually buying the magazines. On the other hand its extremely annoying that the ultra conservative bunch can't be flexible enough to allow the rest of us to simply enjoy the parts of the magazines that we do. Oh well, I'm not going to drag the argument into this thread as well.


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## arwink (Apr 14, 2003)

Another contender that doesn't appear above: 

Why is greyhawk the default world when everything they publish is for the Forgotten Realms


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## SpikeyFreak (Apr 22, 2003)

I'm just glad the bless weapon DR debate finally has a conclusion in print.

Other debates that are tiresom (these are REAL classics):

WW+Cleave

TWF working with thrown weapons

invis+full attack

sneak attack doing too much damage

armor should provide DR

STR mod shouldn't provide bonus on attack rolls

orcs got the shaft

haste is too powerful

harm is too powerful

refocus action being useful

I'm sure I could come up with others, but I'm tired of thinking.

--Drone Spikey


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## ColonelHardisson (Apr 23, 2003)

Although some of the ones I'll mention could be subsumed under the "it isn't realistic" banner, they get enough individual attention to rate mentioning on their own:

* hit points don't make sense!
* levels don't make sense!
* the next edition of D&D needs to do away with all the sacred cows!

My answer for all of these is the same, and is simple: Play another game. It would be like me demanding that Pendragon stop focusing on knights or get rid of the Traits and Passions, or inisisting that Ars Magica needs to be more low-magic. There are plenty of other RPGs that fit the bill of what you're looking for. 

Other arguments that I'd like to see go away:

* this game is better than that one! Whether it's old schoolers lamenting d20, or everyone else lambasting HackMaster, it's a futile argument - it's all subjective. If you don't like something, then don't play it.  Loudly proclaiming how one would like to see this or that game "go away" is stupid. Just because I don't like something doesn't mean it has to be destroyed, or that anyone who likes it is stupid or deficient.

* Too many options in 3e! Huh? It is easy enough for a DM to limit what goes in his game from even the core rules. Why do away with options that others like because one can't control one's game? 

* Mercurial swords - while it hasn't been discussed lately, I'm still surprised by how much consternation this subject caused.


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## diaglo (Apr 23, 2003)

Henry said:
			
		

> *"Wizards of the Cost," because Ryan Dancey said it first, totally by accident, at a time when people were lamenting that TSR was gone and people couldn't use T$R any more, and WotC had no S 's .  *




he stole that from me. 

you forgot to mention they are now a Hasbeen subsidiary.


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## The Sigil (Apr 23, 2003)

Post count does/does not matter (and the associated Crothian and Hong topics).



--The Sigil
(who rolls his post odometer to exactly 1,000 with this post)


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## KnowTheToe (Apr 25, 2003)

My favorite is easily Rangers Suck!  If you just put the word ranger in the thread title, you are guaranteed to have 50+ replies, even if you start talking about the Ford Ranger.


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## Darkness (Apr 25, 2003)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *Although some of the ones I'll mention could be subsumed under the "it isn't realistic" banner, they get enough individual attention to rate mentioning on their own:
> 
> * hit points don't make sense!
> * levels don't make sense!
> ...



I agree with you there, even though my hate of hit points, levels, and a few of the sacred cows knows no limit. 

But then, my solution is a bit more conservative than throwing all of this out: I'd just like WotC to provide options to do without these things, or at least to make the process of class creation more transparent.

In the end, though, I don't mind levels and hit points enough to stop playing D&D - so it's all good. 

What I _do_ mind almost enough, though, is the huge amount of magic items a 3e character just _needs_ after a certain level.

(Hm. But let's not turn this thread into a debate about this; if y'all want to debate this, or any other, topic, create a new thread in the appropriate forum and maybe link to it here. )


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