# Black Panther Trailer



## tomBitonti (Oct 18, 2017)

There is a new trailer recently made available:

http://www.imdb.com/list/ls05318164...pf_rd_t=15061&pf_rd_i=homepage&ref_=hm_hp_i_1

This is labelled as the "official" trailer, although, the prior trailer seemed to be enough to be considered a trailer.

I think the trailer does very well.  They did a great job cutting the music to the trailer.

I hope the movie is as good!

Thx!
TomB


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## Ryujin (Oct 18, 2017)

They both look awesome


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## trappedslider (Oct 18, 2017)

[video=youtube;xjDjIWPwcPU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjDjIWPwcPU[/video]


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## Tonguez (Oct 19, 2017)

dont like the music, I'd have preferred something African (theres some great African hip hop even)


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## megamania (Oct 22, 2017)

Movie looks good.   Another hit for Disney / Marvel


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## Legatus Legionis (Oct 24, 2017)

.


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## Tonguez (Oct 25, 2017)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> Not being familiar with the character (never having read any of the comics for Black Panther), and only what little was scene in Winter Soldier, I must say it does look interesting.
> 
> Lots of impressive CGI.





The Avengers Earth's Mightiest Heroes S1 Ep11 is a Wakanda adventure

there was also a Marvel Knights Black Panther motion comic which use to be available on Youtube (though it featured XMen Storm and Juggernaut)


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## Random Bystander (Oct 26, 2017)

I watch movies only very rarely. This is one of the ones I would watch, if I did watch movies - Based on the trailer.


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## Derren (Feb 21, 2018)

I am kinda surprised that people are not talking more about it now that it is released.

Although to be honest, while the movie is well made and I can't find anything really wrong with it, imo it also lacks highlights and wow moments. And the story is in my eyes even more generic than in the other superhero movies.


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## Morrus (Feb 21, 2018)

It's a "wait for TV" for me -- I haven't watched a Marvel flick in the cinema for a couple of years now. I'm kinda burnedt out on them; though I do hear that this one is really good.


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## Derren (Feb 22, 2018)

Morrus said:


> It's a "wait for TV" for me -- I haven't watched a Marvel flick in the cinema for a couple of years now. I'm kinda burnedt out on them; though I do hear that this one is really good.




It certainly is good, but imo it misses the final "Omph" to be great. Nothing much to criticise, a rather constant good level (gets a bit weaker in the 2nd half imo) but also no memorable highlight in my eyes.
I even have a hard time calling it a superhero movie. Yes, the characters jump higher and the swords are glowing, but thats it. The same story can (and has several times) be told with just regular persons. There is nothing really "superheroish" happening.
There is also hardly any reference to other Marvel movies in BP. They acknowledge that Civil War happened (kinda had to as BPs father died there), one indirect reference to civil war and one after credit scene. Thats it.

Certainly not a must see, but if you plan to go to the cinema anyway, BP as a very solid choice.


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## Imaro (Feb 22, 2018)

Derren said:


> It certainly is good, but imo it misses the final "Omph" to be great. Nothing much to criticise, a rather constant good level (gets a bit weaker in the 2nd half imo) but also no memorable highlight in my eyes.
> 
> 
> Certainly not a must see, but if you plan to go to the cinema anyway, BP as a very solid choice.




I've seen it and I'd strongly disagree with this assessment, for me it's definitely a must see and in my top 3 Marvel movies.  I'll try to address how I see some of the criticisms you have with the movie and offer an alternative opinion below.

I'm a little confused about the "Omph" moment comment for me it was the choice Killmonger makes at the end... a very Magneto-esque thing (which I'll talk more about later) to do IMO and for may blacks in America who face similar quandaries about identity/selling out/the past/etc. it hits very close to home.  

Funnily enough most critics say it's the beginning of the movie that is weak claiming it feels more like a spy movie vs. a superhero movie... of course I'm starting to think perhaps the expectation for superhero movies may be off since Black Widow and Hawkeye are both considered superheroes (with no super powers and only agent/spy training).

I think what makes the movie memorable was how easy it is to empathize with the villain  Killmonger's motivation (a serious weak point in nearly all Marvel movies up to this point)... honestly the ideologies of both Killmonger and T'challa gave off a very Magneto vs. Xavier (or as Stan Lee has often cited a Martin Luther King vs. Malcolm X vibe since that is who the characters were at least in part based on) vibe for me that I found refreshingly thought provoking (something I really haven't experienced with a Marvel movie up to this point), especially as a black person in the U.S. 



Derren said:


> I even have a hard time calling it a superhero movie. Yes, the characters jump higher and the swords are glowing, but thats it. The same story can (and has several times) be told with just regular persons. There is nothing really "superheroish" happening.




I'm having a hard time parsing this... What is "superheroish" in your opinion?  Are movies like Captain America and Wonder Woman (basically just war stories with a superhero included) not "superheroish"?  I'd definitely need to understand the definiton you are using before addressing it but I'll say most superhero stories could be told with regular people if interpreted at an abstract enough level...



Derren said:


> There is also hardly any reference to other Marvel movies in BP. They acknowledge that Civil War happened (kinda had to as BPs father died there), one indirect reference to civil war and one after credit scene. Thats it.




If I'm recalling correctly few if any of the movies introducing single heroes to the MCU (Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, Dr. Strange, etc.) reference other Marvel movies with more than a nod... so not sure why BP in his origin movie would necessarily buck that trend, especially since Wakanda is an isolated nation.  We've already seen his connection to the Avengers in Civil War so anything beyond a mention of that would, IMO take away from his origin story.


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## Derren (Feb 22, 2018)

Imaro said:


> and for may blacks in America who face similar quandaries about identity/selling out/the past/etc. it hits very close to home.




Thats probably why we have a different opinion of this movie. I do not really care what this movie might or might not mean for someone on the other side of the world. And once you cut that out what remains is a fairly conventional story of king and an ursurper out of nowhere without any changes to the formula. For a really great movie BP would have needed to make something special and memorable out of it. For you that special something seems to be that the cast is black. For me it isnt.


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## Imaro (Feb 23, 2018)

Derren said:


> Thats probably why we have a different opinion of this movie. I do not really care what this movie might or might not mean for someone on the other side of the world.




I doubt that's the reason for our difference of opinion... I addressed your statements with counterpoints... how about you do the same?  How do you define a "superhero" movie?  What superhero movies do a really great job in your opinion and why?  And I'm going to go out on a limb and assume these movies would have none of the flaws you called out for BP... right?



Derren said:


> And once you cut that out what remains is a fairly conventional story of king and an ursurper out of nowhere without any changes to the formula.




I guess if you cut out the movie's themes, it's details, it's character's motivations, etc...yes you would have a fairly conventional story... but I think that's true for any movie.  Just from your statement above I feel like you perhaps missed some parts of the movie... the usurper doesn't come "out of nowhere" he's given a background and motivation that is not only intrinsically tied to Wakanda, T'challa and the royal family but serves to call into question the morality of T'Challa's father, the previous Black Panther, and his adviser as well as providing the catalyst for a crossroads where the new king T'challa has to choose between tradition and change, that choice by the end of the movie reverberates throughout Wakanda and the world in the MCU.  This is a universal theme, not a black theme.  Since your post seems to imply you find it hard relating to the exploration of a theme that may be/is more relevant to a different set of people (though still universal at some level).




Derren said:


> For a really great movie BP would have needed to make something special and memorable out of it. For you that special something seems to be that the cast is black. For me it isnt.




No, I listed some of the reasons I thought the BP movie was special and memorable and even invited you to make some counter points (which you instead chose to ignore)... and for the record not a single one of them was... the cast is black.  But thanks for trying to simplify the post I took the time to reply to you with in hopes of conversation in such a dismissive way.


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## Mallus (Feb 23, 2018)

Derren said:


> And once you cut that out what remains is a fairly conventional story of king and an ursurper out of nowhere without any changes to the formula. For a really great movie BP would have needed to make something special and memorable out of it.



Yes, a fairly conventional story about the King of African Atlantis, who is also James Bond and his kid sister who is Tony Stark and Q combined, dealing with a challenge to his throne and also the legacy of colonialism and slavery and the African Diaspora. Typical blockbuster fare. 

There really isn't anything _conventional_ about Black Panther. Not saying you should like it more, but give its ambition the credit it's due. 

For me, easily top 5 Marvel movies. Prolly top 3. The villain is so well written & acted it really casts virtually every other Marvel movie in a bad light. And like the first Guardians of the Galaxy, BP works as a tour of a fascinating part of the Marvel universe, one that exists outside of the "New York & D.C. & L.A. but with superheroes" we see elsewhere.


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## cmad1977 (Feb 23, 2018)

It’s easily top 3 Marvel films. Easily. Probably number 1 on my list.


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## Tonguez (Feb 23, 2018)

can anyone explain what was up with W'kabi doing the big heel turn and actually bringing in Mecha-Rhinos to kill other Wakandans
wasn't Wkabi the greatest villain in the movie, he's certainly fickle with his affections?


the movie was good, not the greatest marvel movie ever like some of the hype is claiming, but enjoyable as a spy movie. I did like the reflection on colonialism that was sprinkled through and that all the secondary characters (Nakia, Shuri, Mbaku) each were interesting in their own right.

I'm not happy with Klaue being killed so easily (hopefully the vibranium in his system allows him to'come back) and while Killmonger was a good antagonist, I'm not seeing how he was better than Hela or (okay just Hela)


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## Derren (Feb 23, 2018)

Imaro said:


> No, I listed some of the reasons I thought the BP movie was special and memorable and even invited you to make some counter points (which you instead chose to ignore)... and for the record not a single one of them was... the cast is black.  But thanks for trying to simplify the post I took the time to reply to you with in hopes of conversation in such a dismissive way.




And yet you felt the need, several times at length in fact, to mention the effects the movie might have on black people in your review so this topic is obviously important to you.

Yes the bad guy has a backstory to justify why he is not instantly thrown out. But he still shows up in Wakanda where nobody knew about him, punches T'Challa in the face and is crowned king. This ursurper out of nowhere story is nothing new as is how BP resolves it.

Several references to James Bond have already made and that is kinda the thing. If you remove the superpowers nothing much would change. T'Challa couldnt jump as high but thats it. Especially the 2nd half (Killmonger arrives in Wakanda) nothing would really change. Try to do that with Ant-Man and you would have to rewrite most if the movie including the entire premise.

Granted, Black Panther doesnt have the most distinctive set of superpowers. Most action heroes are in the end stronger, faster and more enduring than average persons even outside superhero movies. Captain America at least had his signature shield to throw around. Black Widow is a good comparison. Yes, she is technically a superhero because she is part of the Avengers, but guess why she didnt had her movie yet and why Hawkeye probably wont be getting one.

Does BP make the Top 5? Yes, maybe. But not the Top 3. It is just a good movie but for the Top 3 you need more than that. And if in a few years I had to list all Marvel movies in the order they come to mind BP wouldn't be near the top as there is nothing that stands out.

That there are hardly any references to the Marvelverse was not a complain but simply an information for Morrus.


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## Tonguez (Feb 23, 2018)

Derren said:


> And yet you felt the need, several times at length in fact, to mention the effects the movie might have on black people in your review so this topic is obviously important to you.
> 
> Yes the bad guy has a backstory to justify why he is not instantly thrown out. But he still shows up in Wakanda where nobody knew about him, punches T'Challa in the face and is crowned king. This ursurper out of nowhere story is nothing new as is how BP resolves it.
> 
> ...




one of the things that Marvel has done well (and been praised for) is that they have been able to make movies that would fit across a variety of genre and not just 'superhero action'  With that in mind we have had Cap 1 as a war movie and Cap 2 as a political thriller.
Guardians of the Galaxy and Thor have also not been superhero movies and to some extent neither was Civil War.

Related to this is the critiscism that MArvel movies all follow a standard formula and retread the same old  standard tropes, but personally I think that these are strengths. That Black Panther bases itself firmly as a Spy film is a good thing, it gives a fun, familiar hook for audiences to relate to, which can then be subverted via the presentation of Tchalla's obligations as King and then layered with the the narative of colonialism and diaspora, tradition and isolation v altruism and modernity, all within a relatively standard 'King v Ursurper' trope. I liked it.

(As for Antman, while the size change thing was a great gimmick, I think the same story could have happened with out the Pym particles, indeed the story itself  reminded me of Remo: Unarmed and Dangerous (1985 movie) in particular the training montage - but maybe thats just me.


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## Imaro (Feb 23, 2018)

Tonguez said:


> I'm not happy with Klaue being killed so easily (hopefully the vibranium in his system allows him to'come back) and while Killmonger was a good antagonist, I'm not seeing how he was better than Hela or (okay just Hela)




I think it boils down to the fact that Killmonger while certainly seeking revenge for wrongs against himself is, in his own way, also seeking to empower those he considers his people (mainly those forcibly taken from Africa and oppressed by foreign powers) by arming them with technology and knowledge from Wakanda... while Hela is, if I remember it correctly (and I could be worng since I watched the movie a while ago), purely about gaining power... because she wants power(??) and exacting revenge for her imprisonment.

EDIT: Again IMO very reminiscent of Magneto and his agenda of empowering mutants to strike back at those who oppress them.


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## Imaro (Feb 23, 2018)

Derren said:


> And yet you felt the need, several times at length in fact, to mention the effects the movie might have on black people in your review so this topic is obviously important to you.




Yes it is important to me, but if I was talking about a movie... say Schindler's List... I would also stress the fact that the movie would resonate very deeply with Jewish people but stating that doesn't equate to... I like Schindler's List as a movie because it has a Jewish cast...  



Derren said:


> Yes the bad guy has a backstory to justify why he is not instantly thrown out. But he still shows up in Wakanda where nobody knew about him, punches T'Challa in the face and is crowned king. This ursurper out of nowhere story is nothing new as is how BP resolves it.




Nothing new in so far as what exactly?  All superehero movies can be boiled down to villain creates problem... superhero fights and defeats villain.  On the one hand you make the claim it's not a superhero movie (or not enough of a superhero movie) but then you complain it uses the basic structure of superhero movies instead of doing something different... I'm confused by what exactly you are looking for... so again, for the 3rd or 4th time I'll ask... could you name a superhero movie you feel is both a good superhero movie and that has a totally new story?



Derren said:


> Several references to James Bond have already made and that is kinda the thing. If you remove the superpowers nothing much would change. T'Challa couldnt jump as high but thats it. Especially the 2nd half (Killmonger arrives in Wakanda) nothing would really change. Try to do that with Ant-Man and you would have to rewrite most if the movie including the entire premise.




So I assume you have issues with Iron Man (remove the suit and he's just a normal guy), Captain America (He has the same type of enhanced powers as T'challa), Hawkeye, Black Widow, Winter Soldier (Remove the arm and he's not a superhero), Ant Man (without the suit and Pymm particles he's an average Joe) and so on.  And yes all of these stories (I'd argue nearly all superhero movie stories) could have been told with regular people, including Ant Man's... ex-convict given a second chance must stop a mad genius from developing a weapon from stolen designs (Wow does that sound like something out of James Bond).  The powers add to the story, just like in any superhero movie but they aren't necessary to tell the story at a high level. 



Derren said:


> Granted, Black Panther doesnt have the most distinctive set of superpowers. Most action heroes are in the end stronger, faster and more enduring than average persons even outside superhero movies. Captain America at least had his signature shield to throw around. Black Widow is a good comparison. Yes, she is technically a superhero because she is part of the Avengers, but guess why she didnt had her movie yet and why Hawkeye probably wont be getting one.




Black Panther's vibranium suit and claws are just as distinctive as Cap's shield... and he's way past Black Widow and Hawkeye in strength, speed, agility, etc.   this was both shown and explained throughout Civil War and Black Panther which again leads me to believe you may have missed some things in the movie.  



Derren said:


> Does BP make the Top 5? Yes, maybe. But not the Top 3. It is just a good movie but for the Top 3 you need more than that. And if in a few years I had to list all Marvel movies in the order they come to mind BP wouldn't be near the top as there is nothing that stands out.




You keep saying this and I've asked you to throw out some superhero movies (preferably siungle superhero movies) that do stand out and yet all you've done is repeat this without any type of explanation.  So again I'll ask... what was a good/great superhero movie that did something totally different and whose story couldn't be told without super powers?



Derren said:


> That there are hardly any references to the Marvelverse was not a complain but simply an information for Morrus.




Yes, but I'm asking why is that notable when it doesn't happen in any of the other origin story movies?


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## trappedslider (Feb 23, 2018)

Tonguez said:


> can anyone explain what was up with W'kabi doing the big heel turn and actually bringing in Mecha-Rhinos




I thought they were just armored..I didn't see anything that implied they were part robo....


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## Derren (Feb 23, 2018)

Imaro said:


> Yes it is important to me, but if I was talking about a movie... say Schindler's List... I would also stress the fact that the movie would resonate very deeply with Jewish people but stating that doesn't equate to... I like Schindler's List as a movie because it has a Jewish cast...



And for me such things do not matter at all for rating a movie


> Nothing new in so far as what exactly?  All superehero movies can be boiled down to villain creates problem... superhero fights and defeats villain.  On the one hand you make the claim it's not a superhero movie (or not enough of a superhero movie) but then you complain it uses the basic structure of superhero movies instead of doing something different... I'm confused by what exactly you are looking for... so again, for the 3rd or 4th time I'll ask... could you name a superhero movie you feel is both a good superhero movie and that has a totally new story?



Mainstream movies with an original story are pretty rare. Thats why to be a great movie in my eyes it has to either do something special or be the best at something. Ant Man for example does that in my eyes because Heist movie + shrinking and ants is new and memorable.
Black Panther does not because not only is it a pretty conventional story it also doesn't really do anything special in my eyes.


> So I assume you have issues with Iron Man (remove the suit and he's just a normal guy), Captain America (He has the same type of enhanced powers as T'challa), Hawkeye, Black Widow, Winter Soldier (Remove the arm and he's not a superhero), Ant Man (without the suit and Pymm particles he's an average Joe) and so on.  And yes all of these stories (I'd argue nearly all superhero movie stories) could have been told with regular people, including Ant Man's... ex-convict given a second chance must stop a mad genius from developing a weapon from stolen designs (Wow does that sound like something out of James Bond).  The powers add to the story, just like in any superhero movie but they aren't necessary to tell the story at a high level.




Guess why Iron Man 3 was so disliked. And yes, most CapAm movies are not really superhero movies either. But the advantage he has over BP is his shield which he actively uses. Black Panthers suit on the other hand is passive.
Sure you could remove all superpowers from Ant Man to have a regular heist movie, but what do you have to change to do that? First you have to find an entirely different premise as keeping the superpowers out of peoples hands is the entire point of the movie and you have to completely change the 2nd half of the movie, even bringing in new characters to take over the roles of the ants. The superpower is pretty central to the movie.
On the other hand, what would change if BP had no superpowers?


> Black Panther's vibranium suit and claws are just as distinctive as Cap's shield... and he's way past Black Widow and Hawkeye in strength, speed, agility, etc.   this was both shown and explained throughout Civil War and Black Panther which again leads me to believe you may have missed some things in the movie.




Its not about power.
CapAm throws his shield around. BP wears his suit. Active use vs. passive use.
I would even argue that Hawkeyes bow is more memorable than BPs suit.



trappedslider said:


> I thought they were just armored..I didn't see anything that implied they were part robo....




They were just normal ones with vibranium horn.


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## Tonguez (Feb 23, 2018)

trappedslider said:


> I thought they were just armored..I didn't see anything that implied they were part robo....




could be, I got the impression that the glowing vibranium bits had been grafted directly into the Rhinos hide as a direct enhancement (it cant be the same tach as Black Panthers suit since Shuri indicated that was 'new')


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## ccs (Feb 23, 2018)

Derren said:


> Guess why Iron Man 3 was so disliked.




Because people on the internet like to bitch & cry.  And there's only a tiny % of us that found the Mandarin twist amusing.
You {and many others} say you want something unique/different in a superhero movie.  Marvel gave you that by making Stark deal with much of the problem sans armor.
And everyone cried that they didn't like it....




Derren said:


> And yes, most CapAm movies are not really superhero movies either. But the advantage he has over BP is his shield which he actively uses. Black Panthers suit on the other hand is passive.




_Most_ Captain America movies....  Could you be more specific?  If I were going to walk over to my shelf & watch the ones you think *ARE* superhero movies, wich ones am I watching tonight?  You tell me:
1940s serial? 
1970s TV movies?
early 90s movie?
CA: 1st avenger?
CA: Winter Soldier?
CA: Civil War? 
3 Dev Adam?  (What!?  Don't tell me you've never heard of this un-authorized cinematic masterpiece where CA teams up with Mexican wrestler El Santo & fights the evil Turkish Spiderman in Istanbul!)




Derren said:


> Its not about power.
> CapAm throws his shield around. BP wears his suit. Active use vs. passive use.
> I would even argue that Hawkeyes bow is more memorable than BPs suit.




From what your saying it kinda sounds like it is about the powers.  Or at least the powers special effects....
What about Luke Cage?  Afterall, he doesn't even wear a suit.  He's just invulnerable.  Superhero or not?


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## Istbor (Feb 23, 2018)

Derren said:


> Its not about power.
> CapAm throws his shield around. BP wears his suit. Active use vs. passive use.
> I would even argue that Hawkeyes bow is more memorable than BPs suit.




You could try to argue that, but I think you would find you are wrong.


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## Kaodi (Feb 23, 2018)

I wonder if you could make an argument that in some ways Ragnarok and Black Panther fit together thematically. Black Panther references what might have been possible without colonialism. Ragnarok can be read as covering up the "unpleasant" bits of a colonial past.


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## Tonguez (Feb 24, 2018)

Kaodi said:


> I wonder if you could make an argument that in some ways Ragnarok and Black Panther fit together thematically. Black Panther references what might have been possible without colonialism. Ragnarok can be read as covering up the "unpleasant" bits of a colonial past.




thats certainly a good point and its notable that the directors in both cases are from ethnic minorities from countries with colonial histories. You could even tie in Iron Mans anti-imperialism arc (best demonstrated by the Maximoff twins hatred of Tony Stark and his change from weapons dealer to Hero).

Marvel also has a big subplot concerning dysfunctional fathers - from merely amoral Howard Stark through to negligent T'chaka and the insane David Banner right through to universe conquering Odin and Ego the Living Planet (if need be we can through the fathers of Luke Cage, Daredevil and Quake into that line up too). 

Its no wonder their children deal with problems through violence


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## xanadunl (Feb 25, 2018)

Derren said:


> I am kinda surprised that people are not talking more about it now that it is released.
> 
> Although to be honest, while the movie is well made and I can't find anything really wrong with it, imo it also lacks highlights and wow moments. And the story is in my eyes even more generic than in the other superhero movies.




I have to partly agree. The is not alot of Black Panther going on, but I wouldn't call it generic. Thanks to the whole African theme going on, it felt pretty fresh.


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## Parmandur (Feb 25, 2018)

Black Panther is handily the best Marvel movie so far, and it is not in any way "conventional."


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## Derren (Feb 25, 2018)

Kaodi said:


> I wonder if you could make an argument that in some ways Ragnarok and Black Panther fit together thematically. Black Panther references what might have been possible without colonialism. Ragnarok can be read as covering up the "unpleasant" bits of a colonial past.




BP is still a comic adaption and I find any it rather questionable to use Wakanda as some sort of "what would have been without colonialism" role model.


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## Gammadoodler (Feb 25, 2018)

Perhaps I’m missing the connective thought? Is there a reason that “comic adaptation and “what would have been without colonialism” role model should be exclusive to each other or even “questionable”?


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## Tonguez (Feb 26, 2018)

Gammadoodler said:


> Perhaps I’m missing the connective thought? Is there a reason that “comic adaptation and “what would have been without colonialism” role model should be exclusive to each other or even “questionable”?




the reactions coming out of the Black Panther screenings in Africa itself have tended to be positive, with the movie making big money in both East, West and South Africa. People are positive about the emphasis on 'hi-tech' modern Africa rather than the crisis and poverty and the fact that a big budget superhero now exists that talks with an African accent (almost), wears kente cloth and looks 'African'. (as a Polynesian I saw the same reaction to Disneys Moana, such that even my 16 year old neice bought a Moana blanket).

Nonetheless that ignores the fact that Wakanda survived and flourished due to being built on 10000 tonnes of Vibranium - thats the fictional part which means that it lackls relevance to the real world and we will never know what uncolonised Uganda might have been like sans Vibranium. 

(Theres also criticisms of Ross' role as CIA stooge and the whole Killmonger was the true hero angle, but that gets into politics we don't want)


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## Imaro (Feb 26, 2018)

Derren said:


> BP is still a comic adaption and I find any it rather questionable to use Wakanda as some sort of "what would have been without colonialism" role model.




Yes because that so isn't what sci-fi, fantasy and comic book fiction has been exploring forever (mainly what if's...)... So what exactly would be an entertaining and enjoyable medium where this fictitious scenario could be explored?


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## Imaro (Feb 26, 2018)

Tonguez said:


> the reactions coming out of the Black Panther screenings in Africa itself have tended to be positive, with the movie making big money in both East, West and South Africa. People are positive about the emphasis on 'hi-tech' modern Africa rather than the crisis and poverty and the fact that a big budget superhero now exists that talks with an African accent (almost), wears kente cloth and looks 'African'. (as a Polynesian I saw the same reaction to Disneys Moana, such that even my 16 year old neice bought a Moana blanket).
> 
> Nonetheless that ignores the fact that Wakanda survived and flourished due to being built on 10000 tonnes of Vibranium - thats the fictional part which means that it lackls relevance to the real world and we will never no what uncolonised Uganda might have been like sans Vibranium.
> 
> (Theres also criticisms of Ross role as CIA stooge and the whole Killmonger was the true hero angle but that gets into politics we don't want)




I don't think just because it uses a fictional catalyst for the successful rejection of colonialism means the movie lacks real world relevance (though I agree we can never know what an Uganda that was never colonized would actually be like).  Maybe I'm reading your statement wrong but you seem to be saying no fiction can have relevance to the real world because it has fictitious elements/events.  If that is the premise I disagree fictional stories like myths, legends, etc. have always had relevance to the real world... even though we know they aren't documentaries.


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## Gammadoodler (Feb 26, 2018)

Why exactly do you think colonization happened? Do you think that Europeans showed up in Africa (or North and South America, or Asia) with guns and gunpowder in order to secure a pretty travel destination? Vibranium is a very reasonable analogue for silk, diamonds, gold, cotton, etc. The only difference, such as it is, is that, where these other materials are primarily valuable as trade goods, vibranium has physical properties relevant to the development of technology akin to magic. 

You don’t think that it is at least plausible to imagine a world where an African nation’s native population had an opportunity to profit on their natural resources?


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## Derren (Feb 26, 2018)

Imaro said:


> Yes because that so isn't what sci-fi, fantasy and comic book fiction has been exploring forever (mainly what if's...)... So what exactly would be an entertaining and enjoyable medium where this fictitious scenario could be explored?




And what scenario gets explored exactly?
"What if Africa wasnt colonized" or "What if there was a high technological african kingdom with the king wearing a panther suit and punching bad guys"?

When they created BP they started with the result, a panther themed superhero, and added some fantasy elements as origin. You can't simply turn this around and use it as allegory of what could have been without colonialism as the creators never asked that question.

This comic book origin is also a major disconnect in the movie. On one hand Wakanda is very advanced, on the other it is very archaic because some comic logic had to be kept.


----------



## Imaro (Feb 26, 2018)

Derren said:


> And what scenario gets explored exactly?
> "What if Africa wasnt colonized" or "What if there was a high technological african kingdom with the king wearing a panther suit and punching bad guys"?




Why is it an either or proposition?

EDIT: The Matrix was both an exploration of the themes of Gnosticism and a movie where the slickly dressed heroes kick and punch bad guys... wasn't it? 



Derren said:


> When they created BP they started with the result, a panther themed superhero, and added some fantasy elements as origin. You can't simply turn this around and use it as allegory of what could have been without colonialism as the creators never asked that question.




How do you know this?  More importantly, even assuming your knowledge of the creation process for the Black Panther and Wakanda are correct... why couldn't the original creation evolve into an exploration of that theme as Wakanda became more fleshed out and more prominent in the comics?



Derren said:


> This comic book origin is also a major disconnect in the movie. On one hand Wakanda is very advanced, on the other it is very archaic because some comic logic had to be kept.




Archaic in what way... and please don't confuse cultural differences for something being archaic...


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## Derren (Feb 26, 2018)

Imaro said:


> Why is it an either or proposition?
> 
> EDIT: The Matrix was both an exploration of the themes of Gnosticism and a movie where the slickly dressed heroes kick and punch bad guys... wasn't it?
> 
> ...




Because starting with the desired result first and then going backwards to justify that result is completely unscientific and any explorasion made on this premise is flawed. And I doubt that anyone at Marvel has enough experience as a historian to even begin to make an informed exploration of alternate history. Especially as the comics are still intended as light entertainment with mass market appeal so they go with the rule of cool and whatever their marketing department things the target demographic likes instead of doing actual historic evaluations.

Archaic as in their head of state is chosen by single combat.


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## Gammadoodler (Feb 26, 2018)

This seems like an awfully reductive approach to exploration. To me:

- what conditions might form an African superhero, and
- what is one possible result of uncolonized Africa 

are not barred from similar conclusions in that they are both fundamentally speculative in nature.


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## Imaro (Feb 26, 2018)

Derren said:


> Because starting with the desired result first and then going backwards to justify that result is completely unscientific and any exploration made on this premise is flawed.




Who said anything about this being a scientific exploration??  Black Panther is a superhero comic book... It's exploring the themes around non-colonized Africa and an African king/superhero narrative as speculative fiction.



Derren said:


> And I doubt that anyone at Marvel has enough experience as a historian to even begin to make an informed exploration of alternate history.




Wait... now you need to be an experienced historian to write speculative fiction about a subject?? 



Derren said:


> Especially as the comics are still intended as light entertainment with mass market appeal so they go with the rule of cool and whatever their marketing department things the target demographic likes instead of doing actual historic evaluations.




Light entertainment with mass market appeal describes some comic books... not all but some.  Not sure how much mass market appeal an African king/superhero of a technologically advanced culture that was never colonized had in the 60's... *shrug* 



Derren said:


> Archaic as in their head of state is chosen by single combat.




That would be cultural tradition... no more or less archaic than being the ruler because you happen to be born lucky... right?


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## Tonguez (Feb 26, 2018)

Imaro said:


> I don't think just because it uses a fictional catalyst for the successful rejection of colonialism means the movie lacks real world relevance (though I agree we can never know what an Uganda that was never colonized would actually be like).  Maybe I'm reading your statement wrong but you seem to be saying no fiction can have relevance to the real world because it has fictitious elements/events.  If that is the premise I disagree fictional stories like myths, legends, etc. have always had relevance to the real world... even though we know they aren't documentaries.




no my statement was intended to convey the opposite

my referencing of the African response to Black Panthers release in Kisumu, Kenya (where Lupita Nyong'o originates) and South Africa was to illustrate that the movies impact is one that focusses on the current perspective of Africans living in a modern city, incorporating the beauty of African culture while focussed on a high tech future. That for me is what stories and myth do, they inform modern perspectives and impact on future actions.

So while Vibranium might be analgous to the resources of real world Africa, and Wakandan as an amalgam drawing its motifs from many different cultures of Africa has power to generate excitement across the continent, the Wakanda perspective can only set us to wonder about what the past might have been like without colonialism, it can not have relevance to the historic reality in Africa and how it has come to this point. The excitement and enthusiasm in African motif and African storytelling is for me far more important and far more relevant anyway.  



Derren said:


> When they created BP they started with the result, a panther themed superhero, and added some fantasy elements as origin. You can't simply turn this around and use it as allegory of what could have been without colonialism as the creators never asked that question.




Ah nope the creators were specifically intent on creating a Black African superhero, the Panther theme came later (he was originally conceived under the name Coal Tiger). More importantly Ryan Coogler directly called out colonialism in how he conceived of the story saying "“_We were taught that we lost the things that made us African. We lost our culture, and now we have to make do with scraps._”  Killmonger is precisely this character - the American child of Africa cruelly cut off from his culture and making do with the scraps.

I studied anthropology and thus the museum scene that introduces Killmonger is hugely impactful in this regard, western experts defining African reality is something that induces rage in the excluded 'subject'. 



> This comic book origin is also a major disconnect in the movie. On one hand Wakanda is very advanced, on the other it is very archaic because some comic logic had to be kept.




what aspects do you consider archaic?

The BBC had interviews at the Nigeria screening and one of the amusing anecdotes was from a guy who proclaimed that Mbaku must be Igbo  with "M'Baku's accent was so igbo. I felt all my ancestors in the movie with me".

Thats a testimony both to Winston Dukes acting skill (considering he's from Trinidad&Tobago) and also the continuing importance of culture in modern Africa as was reference in Wakanda


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## Derren (Feb 26, 2018)

Imaro said:


> Who said anything about this being a scientific exploration??  Black Panther is a superhero comic book... It's exploring the themes around non-colonized Africa and an African king/superhero narrative as speculative fiction.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait... now you need to be an experienced historian to write speculative fiction about a subject??




And because all of that Black Panther is just light entertainment and not suitable to use for exploration of real world historic issues.



> That would be cultural tradition... no more or less archaic than being the ruler because you happen to be born lucky... right?




And in Wakanda you both needed to be lucky and good at stabbing things to become head of state. Not to mention that real monarchies are quite rare by now.
By the same reasoning you could say that burning witches is not archaic but a cultural tradition.


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## Mallus (Feb 26, 2018)

Derren said:


> And because all of that Black Panther is just light entertainment and not suitable to use for exploration of real world historic issues.



Tell that to the X-Men.

(especially Magneto)


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## Imaro (Feb 26, 2018)

Derren said:


> And because all of that Black Panther is just light entertainment and not suitable to use for exploration of real world historic issues.




Or it actually is working as a a good medium to explore and, especially with the number of people seeing it, to get people to thinking about real world historic issues.  You seem to want it to take a specific course to achieve that, the movie not taking that specific course doesn't mean it didn't have the intended impact of exploring and getting people to think about those real world historic issues... irregardless of your personal opinion.



Derren said:


> And in Wakanda you both needed to be lucky and good at stabbing things to become head of state. Not to mention that real monarchies are quite rare by now.
> By the same reasoning you could say that burning witches is not archaic but a cultural tradition.




You still haven't shown how ritual combat (because it's made clear it doesn't have to be to the death) is archaic vs. say the monarchy of England... Different traditions but neither could be definitively proven to be more progressive than the other.  So if a monarchy can exist in current day why does this tradition still being part of an isolated country that has never been colonized cause a disconnect for you?

EDIT: Honestly it's getting kind of hard to follow the logical progression of your arguments against BP... they seem all over the place like you're haphazardly thinking of things to gripe about but not giving them the necessary consideration before disparaging them so that the issue actually makes sense.


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## Imaro (Feb 26, 2018)

Mallus said:


> Tell that to the X-Men.
> 
> (especially Magneto)




I honestly found the contrast between T'challa and Killmonger to have strong echoes of the Xavier and Magneto conflict.


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## Tonguez (Feb 26, 2018)

Derren said:


> And in Wakanda you both needed to be lucky and good at stabbing things to become head of state. Not to mention that real monarchies are quite rare by now.
> By the same reasoning you could say that burning witches is not archaic but a cultural tradition.




not that rare, there are 49 current Monarchies which out of 195 countries is more than 25%

also when the British Parliament is opened, one of its members must be taken hostage and kept "prisoner" for the duration to ensure the safety of the Queen.


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## Mallus (Feb 26, 2018)

Imaro said:


> I honestly found the contrast between T'challa and Killmonger to have strong echoes of the Xavier and Magneto conflict.



Me too. 

If I had one disappointment with Black Panther, it's that Killmonger dies at the end. Don't get me wrong, he goes out in a fantastic scene, but I would have loved to see the relationship of T'challa and Eric develop over time, like Xavier and Magneto. Possibly ending up in some future timeline as reconciled friends, or at least as longtime rivals who respect one another. 

Of course, this a Marvel universe. Killmonger might not stay dead...


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## Imaro (Feb 26, 2018)

Mallus said:


> Me too.
> 
> If I had one disappointment with Black Panther, it's that Killmonger dies at the end. Don't get me wrong, he goes out in a fantastic scene, but I would have loved to see the relationship of T'challa and Eric develop over time, like Xavier and Magneto. Possibly ending up in some future timeline as reconciled friends, or at least as longtime rivals who respect one another.
> 
> Of course, this a Marvel universe. Killmonger might not stay dead...




I agree would have loved to see a deeper exploration of their philosophies... but like you said it is the Marvel universe... I don't think Killmonger or Klaue will stay dead.


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## Derren (Feb 26, 2018)

Imaro said:


> Or it actually is working as a a good medium to explore and, especially with the number of people seeing it, to get people to thinking about real world historic issues.  You seem to want it to take a specific course to achieve that, the movie not taking that specific course doesn't mean it didn't have the intended impact of exploring and getting people to think about those real world historic issues... irregardless of your personal opinion.



Explore what exactly considering it has 0 relation to the real world?


> You still haven't shown how ritual combat (because it's made clear it doesn't have to be to the death) is archaic vs. say the monarchy of England... Different traditions but neither could be definitively proven to be more progressive than the other.  So if a monarchy can exist in current day why does this tradition still being part of an isolated country that has never been colonized cause a disconnect for you?




Except that in England the queen is pretty much powerless while the power of the king in Wakanda is absolute. If you want to compare those two countries you have to compare the election of the prime minister to ritual, possibly deadly, combat with spears and clubs.
Absolute monarchies, the like of which Wakanda has, are rather rare nowadays. So if you want to compare Wakanda to a real world country you have to use Saudi-Arabia (and they do not use ritual combat).
And yes, England also has several archaic traditions, starting with the hostage and ending with the wigs judges wear. Still, such things are inconsequential while the combat in Wakanda not only have far flung consequences, it can also be deadly.

Honestly, it's getting kind of hard to follow your single minded defence of BP which includes defending the practice of choosing the head of state based on how good he is at bashing heads in.


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## Imaro (Feb 26, 2018)

Derren said:


> Explore what exactly considering it has 0 relation to the real world?
> 
> 
> Except that in England the queen is pretty much powerless while the power of the king in Wakanda is absolute. If you want to compare those two countries you have to compare the election of the prime minister to ritual, possibly deadly, combat with spears and clubs.
> ...




You're just trolling now... aren't you?


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## Derren (Feb 26, 2018)

Imaro said:


> You're just trolling now... aren't you?




I guess you do not want to answer, do you?


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## Imaro (Feb 26, 2018)

Derren said:


> I guess you do not want to answer, do you?




Answer what?  On the one hand you say it doesn't matter to you what effect the movie had on people of color because that doesn't matter in determining whether it's a good movie... but then on the other hand you are certain it can't possibly be a machine or catalyst for people of color to explore the themes around an African country that was never colonized but... that's exactly the kind of conversation (among many others) that the movie has been sparking... which you'd probably realize if you cared about the effect  it had on people that weren't you but you don't because that has no bearing on how good the movie is... see how ridiculous this is becoming.


----------



## Derren (Feb 26, 2018)

Imaro said:


> Answer what?  On the one hand you say it doesn't matter to you what effect the movie had on people of color because that doesn't matter in determining whether it's a good movie... but then on the other hand you are certain it can't possibly be a machine or catalyst for people of color to explore the themes around an African country that was never colonized but... that's exactly the kind of conversation (among many others) that the movie has been sparking... which you'd probably realize if you cared about the effect  it had on people that weren't you but you don't because that has no bearing on how good the movie is... see how ridiculous this is becoming.




Ah I see were your problem is, you take things out of context to suit your needs.
It doesn't matter *to me* what political effects a movie has *when I give my personal opinion if it is a good movie or not*. If you scroll back and reread my post you might notice that this was the topic back then.
The entire discussion that I find it silly to base a exploration of real world issue on a completely fictional entertainment product has started much later and has nothing to do wheter I think how the BP movie was.
BP can serve as a catalyst to talk about the effects of colonization, but people have taken it farther than that and somehow use Wakanda as a role model or actual possibility (sans Vibranium) which in my eyes goes much too far.


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## Deset Gled (Feb 26, 2018)

Things I liked:
- The plot managed to be mostly self contained and localized, especially the climax.  Too many super-hero movies these days involve "the worst threat ever faced" and epic final battles that destroy entire cities.  The final battle here was two small tribes, two humans battling in a small area, and less than a dozen airplanes in the background.  But still meaningful and tense.
- The visuals.  Good landscapes.  Better than average CGI.
- The secondary characters.  The generals and others were minor but well fleshed out.
- The handling of racial issues.
- Didn't waste too much time on the pointless romantic sub-plot.

Things I didn't like:
- The flow of time in storytelling.  En media res - but it's a flashback, followed by events that happened in other movies, then the real plot, then flashbacks that conclude the en media res, then the real plot again.  I swear linearity wasn't always this hard.
- The Wakandan city was way to big.  Should have been maybe a quarter of the size shown.
- A super hero died!  Oh, wait, he's alive.
- Salting (burning) the earth for no good in-universe reason.  Clearly done just to prevent the question "Why don't they make more more Black Panthers?" in Infinity War.
- The stinger.

I'm generally burned out on super hero movies, but this was in the top 5 MCU movies for me.


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## Deset Gled (Feb 26, 2018)

Derren said:


> BP can serve as a catalyst to talk about the effects of colonization, but people have taken it farther than that and somehow use Wakanda as a role model or actual possibility (sans Vibranium) which in my eyes goes much too far.




You should probably never watch Star Trek.


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## Derren (Feb 26, 2018)

Deset Gled said:


> Things I liked:
> - The plot managed to be mostly self contained and localized, especially the climax.  Too many super-hero movies these days involve "the worst threat ever faced" and epic final battles that destroy entire cities.  The final battle here was two small tribes, two humans battling in a small area, and less than a dozen airplanes in the background.  But still meaningful and tense.




Thats especially important in a shared universe like the MCU as with a large threat the question is always why XYZ wouldn't show up.


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## Deset Gled (Feb 26, 2018)

Derren said:


> Thats especially important in a shared universe like the MCU as with a large threat the question is always why XYZ wouldn't show up.




Definitely.  It's also something the MCU has completely and utter failed at multiple times.  Iron Man 3 comes to mind as the worst example.  Why weren't more heroes able to help Tony?  And why was the House Party Protocol never used again/before?  Because it's an Iron Man movie.  Civil War also failed in the other direction; it was supposed to be a Captain America movie but was really just Avengers without a couple expensive stars.

BP got this one right in a lot of ways.


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## Derren (Feb 26, 2018)

Deset Gled said:


> Definitely.  It's also something the MCU has completely and utter failed at multiple times.  Iron Man 3 comes to mind as the worst example.  Why weren't more heroes able to help Tony?  And why was the House Party Protocol never used again/before?  Because it's an Iron Man movie.  Civil War also failed in the other direction; it was supposed to be a Captain America movie but was really just Avengers without a couple expensive stars.
> 
> BP got this one right in a lot of ways.




Civil War also introduced the Sakovia Accords which are especially problematic. Not in the movies but the TV series. Especially now as most of the Defenders are known superheroes and should have been, according to the Accords, already have been picked up.


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## Jester David (Feb 26, 2018)

Definetly a solid movie. 

Killmonger was played excellent, and his cause and motive was just realistic enough that you could relate. And the 
Well acted, decent special effects, and funny without being too banter filled or silly. And I loved the Wakandan technology, and the mix of science fiction weaponry with traditional tribal designs. Things like the airship shaped like a ritual mask. I like how they adapted the idea of Kimono card from Priest’s run of the comics with beads, which are more stylized. 
I also dug how they managed to include Nakia, M’Baku the Man-Ape, Killmonger, and Klaw all in one movie.

The plot was pretty predictable all things considered. But it’s a Hollywood movies, and the response to _The Last Jedi_ showed what happens when you dare to veer away from *The Formula*. 

Plus it’s great for black kids to see heroes that look like them for a change. To have a movie that isn’t wall to wall white people. That’s great. While it has zero impact on me, as I possess basic human empathy I can be happy at the joy of others.


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## Jester David (Feb 27, 2018)

Deset Gled said:


> Definitely.  It's also something the MCU has completely and utter failed at multiple times.  Iron Man 3 comes to mind as the worst example.  Why weren't more heroes able to help Tony?  And why was the House Party Protocol never used again/before?  Because it's an Iron Man movie.  Civil War also failed in the other direction; it was supposed to be a Captain America movie but was really just Avengers without a couple expensive stars.
> 
> BP got this one right in a lot of ways.



I never get the “why didn’t Tony/ Cap/ Thor call for help?” question. Why would they? For the same reason most action heroes don’t just call in all the cops and a multitude of back-up. Because it’s personal. Because they think they can handle it alone. That’s just admitting they can’t do the job. Or because they don’t have the five hours it will take them to arrive. 
Or because their friends are busy. I don’t think we need a scene where fugitive Captain American calls Iron Man only to find he’s busy on his own case. 

It’s the same reason the police don’t call and wait for SWAT and the FBI for every call.
Or why every Marvel comic isn’t just _Avengers_.

Why wasn’t House Party used again? It was at the start of _Age of Ultron_ with the Iron Legion. That and his suits were blown up. He only had a few left.


----------



## Tonguez (Feb 27, 2018)

Derren said:


> Civil War also introduced the Sakovia Accords which are especially problematic. Not in the movies but the TV series. Especially now as most of the Defenders are known superheroes and should have been, according to the Accords, already have been picked up.




not really, Shield showed up in Sokovia too and there are back references from the TV shows.

previous to the Defenders show all four members were under the radar enough not to come to the attention of the Authorities. both ex-convict Luke and Jessica Jones were actively trying to avoid publicity (then Luke was in jail) and DD though active could pass as just an average vigilante martial artist (not Super) and now he's also presumed dead.

The upcoming season(s) get a bit more difficult to explain away, but perhaps they will play with it, the trailers for JJ has her being asked if she knows Captain America, which is a nice nod


----------



## Derren (Feb 27, 2018)

Tonguez said:


> not really, Shield showed up in Sokovia too and there are back references from the TV shows.
> 
> previous to the Defenders show all four members were under the radar enough not to come to the attention of the Authorities. both ex-convict Luke and Jessica Jones were actively trying to avoid publicity (then Luke was in jail) and DD though active could pass as just an average vigilante martial artist (not Super) and now he's also presumed dead.
> 
> The upcoming season(s) get a bit more difficult to explain away, but perhaps they will play with it, the trailers for JJ has her being asked if she knows Captain America, which is a nice nod




Already in Defenders both Luke and JJ were known superheroes. Lukes invulnerability was televised on TV and sparked a debate about purchasing new weapons for the pomice. I hardly call that under the radar.
And the events around JJ and the Purple Man  were also known in Defenders and JJ openly used her powers which didnt surprise anyone (the scene with the towed car).
There is really no explanation why they were not approached by that point considering how big of a deal the Accords are supposed to be.


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## ccs (Feb 27, 2018)

Derren said:


> I guess you do not want to answer, do you?




Hey, speaking of not answering....  You still haven't told me wich Captain America movies I should watch if I want to see a Superhero movie.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 27, 2018)

I liked the movie for the setting and the characters, even though structurally, it seems to follow relatively predictable patterns and doesn't really offer much in the way of surprising developments.



Tonguez said:


> the reactions coming out of the Black Panther screenings in Africa itself have tended to be positive, with the movie making big money in both East, West and South Africa. People are positive about the emphasis on 'hi-tech' modern Africa rather than the crisis and poverty and the fact that a big budget superhero now exists that talks with an African accent (almost), wears kente cloth and looks 'African'. (as a Polynesian I saw the same reaction to Disneys Moana, such that even my 16 year old neice bought a Moana blanket).
> 
> Nonetheless that ignores the fact that Wakanda survived and flourished due to being built on 10000 tonnes of Vibranium - thats the fictional part which means that it lackls relevance to the real world and we will never know what uncolonised Uganda might have been like sans Vibranium.



It seems to me that is the biggest flaw - there is no real Wakanda that's going to help the Afro-Americans or the African people rise from the damage colonism and slavery did to them. They still somehow have to figure out a way out of this without superpowers or supertechnology. It offers no real solutions. Maybe, however, it offers at least an Utopia one could strive for?


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## ccs (Feb 27, 2018)

Jester David said:


> I never get the “why didn’t Tony/ Cap/ Thor call for help?” question. Why would they? For the same reason most action heroes don’t just call in all the cops and a multitude of back-up. Because it’s personal. Because they think they can handle it alone. That’s just admitting they can’t do the job. Or because they don’t have the five hours it will take them to arrive.
> Or because their friends are busy. I don’t think we need a scene where fugitive Captain American calls Iron Man only to find he’s busy on his own case.
> 
> It’s the same reason the police don’t call and wait for SWAT and the FBI for every call.
> ...




Exactly.  The comics these movies stem from have been operating for 80-some years with vast #s of concurrent solo adventures/chapters where only the title heroes own supporting cast show up/get referenced.


----------



## Jhaelen (Feb 27, 2018)

Imaro said:


> You're just trolling now... aren't you?



"Trolling is my middle-name and whatever rhymes with eloquence!" ;-) (with apologies to Primus)


----------



## Imaro (Feb 27, 2018)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> It seems to me that is the biggest flaw - there is no real Wakanda that's going to help the Afro-Americans or the African people rise from the damage colonism and slavery did to them. They still somehow have to figure out a way out of this without superpowers or supertechnology. It offers no real solutions. Maybe, however, it offers at least an Utopia one could strive for?




Ok serious question... why do you think Afro-Americans and African people are looking to this movie as some kind of blueprint to repair/fix the damage of colonism and slavery?  Honestly it's more like it inspires African Americans and Africans because it's a representation of them not rooted in colonism, violent stereotypes and slavery... which, along with samboish comedy, seems to be the majority of representation of black and African people in mass media.

EDIT: Think of it in the same way that Captain America represents, and calls to an idealistic America that never really was... but no one is asking why white America thinks they can fix America by using the Cap movies as a blueprint...

EDIT 2: Just to be clear I'm not trying to single you out since a few posters have made assertions along these lines and I'm not understanding why this is assumed?


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## Imaro (Feb 27, 2018)

dbl post


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## Kaodi (Feb 27, 2018)

I wonder if the way in which Wakanda is the most "utopian" is not that they managed all of this by themselves but that they managed it without any discernible environmental impact. An Africa without colonialism would have all of the regular problems of countries that Wakanda seems to lack (in the movie): classism, the after effects of industrialization, and so on. Cultures for which large scale mining was foreign would still have gone through great upheaval in order to be able to extra their own mineral wealth; technology and methods to do it would still have had to be imported from elsewhere.


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## Deset Gled (Feb 27, 2018)

Jester David said:


> I never get the “why didn’t Tony/ Cap/ Thor call for help?” question. ...




Well, if you never understood it before I'm probably not going to be the one to change your mind.  I can, however, point out that it's a well documented problem.  Even within the MCU.  Especially within the MCU.  Heck, even the writers admit that it's a problem.  That's why there are so many in-universe "justifications" for it noted on that page.  Unfortunately, most of those justifications start off thinner than a kleenex, and only get worse as Sequel Escalation ramps things up over time.

Why I brought it up here, though, is that I honestly think your opinion is right for Black Panther.  In the context of this movie, it actually makes sense, and I think that deserves a lot of credit.  It required a combination of good story writing, good plot design, good character creation, knowledge of the universe, and a lot of restraint to pull it off.


----------



## Derren (Feb 27, 2018)

ccs said:


> Hey, speaking of not answering....  You still haven't told me wich Captain America movies I should watch if I want to see a Superhero movie.




Civil War because of everyone else besides Cap.
Why do you think I have used Captain America as comparison to Black Panther? Because he is the least "super" of the superheroes in the MCU (Not counting people without any official superpower and Bucky). But apart from the short airport fight the Captain America movies aren't superhero movies either. Although at least the existence of superpowers is important for the plot in Civil War.

Cap suffers from the same problem as BP that his superpower is something any action hero has. Even Falcon is more super than he in Cap2. The only advantage Cap has over BP is his shield which he can use to do crazy stuff no one else can (even if it is because no one else has a shield in the first place).
But what makes BP different from non-super heroes? Why is BP a superhero but Hawkeye isn't? Heck, why isn't Okoye also a superhero considering that she does nearly as crazy stunts as Black Panther himself? Or lets turn that around. Why is Okoye no superhero but BP is?


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 28, 2018)

Imaro said:


> Ok serious question... why do you think Afro-Americans and African people are looking to this movie as some kind of blueprint to repair/fix the damage of colonism and slavery?



 I don't know what other people think. 
But it was notable to me that the movie made a point to say that people of African Descent have faced injustice and hardships in the entire world (somethnig that applies in-universe as in reality) and the Black Panther realizing that he has Wakanda has the ability to change it, because it's super-rich and super-advanced, it just needs to finally commit to it.
But Wakanda or a country like it doesn't really exist, so the movie shows us there is a problem that we need to deal with, but the solution it has in its own fiction isn't applicable to the real world. 



> Honestly it's more like it inspires African Americans and Africans because it's a representation of them not rooted in colonism, violent stereotypes and slavery... which, along with samboish comedy, seems to be the majority of representation of black and African people in mass media.



And maybe that is enough already? I think that alone might already a good accomplishment for a movie. 



> EDIT: Think of it in the same way that Captain America represents, and calls to an idealistic America that never really was... but no one is asking why white America thinks they can fix America by using the Cap movies as a blueprint...



I think Cap movies don't really seem to apply in the same manner, because they handle the issues they talk about differently (and usually far more indirectly refer to real world issues. The Sokovian Accords or HYDRA undermining SHIELD might stand in for something in our real world, but in universe-it's a superhero world problem that we don't have. Of course, Civil War did't really have a solution to its own problem - it's still unresolved, it seems.)


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## Tonguez (Feb 28, 2018)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I think Cap movies don't really seem to apply in the same manner, because they handle the issues they talk about differently (and usually far more indirectly refer to real world issues. The Sokovian Accords or HYDRA undermining SHIELD might stand in for something in our real world, but in universe-it's a superhero world problem that we don't have. Of course, Civil War did't really have a solution to its own problem - it's still unresolved, it seems.)





*Colonel Chester Phillips* "General Patton has said that wars are fought with weapons but are won by men. Our goal is to create the greatest army in history.* But every army begins with one man. He will be the first in a new breed of super-soldier. We are going to win this war because we have the best men.* And they, personally, will escort Adolf Hitler to the gates of Hell."​(Quote from Captain AMerica The First Avenger)​
Captain America is "just a skinny kid from Brooklyn" who gets beaten up by bullies but who is chosen to be the One Man who best serves America and is thus given great power beceause he deserves it. (contrast that to Killmonger as the kid from Oakland unjustly denied his heritage and reduced to beleiving in fairytales)

Thats the ideal being presented in Captain America, he represents the image of the good American, a soldier who is the One Man amongst Men, who respects people and stands up for what is right and good in the world. In WW2 those are the old time values of America that helped _them_ win the war and become Great (tm)

The next two movies speak to the loss of those old values but Captain America is still the One Man who can stand up against the corruption of American Greatness seen in the Hydra infiltration of SHIELD and the 'unethical' Sokovia accords.
Here too Cap is contrasted with Tony Stark who is the capitalist, war profiteer (reformed) who proves that the private sector is better than Government (and the incompetent military) but who nonetheless has now aligned himself with 'big government' to trample your Rights (contrast here that TChalla as King of Wakanda _is_ Big Government, but in the Wakandan utopia he is benevolent dictator)

The Captain America arc has had more time to gain more nuance in his story than the relatively simple Black Panther and the fact that there are more White Superheroes allows White society to be better explored via contrasting characters rather than via the allegorical depictions of Protagonist v Antagonist seen in Black Panther


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## trappedslider (Feb 28, 2018)

You know what disappointed me the most looking back now...no one made a cat fight joke!


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## Ryujin (Feb 28, 2018)

I have absolutely zero complaints about this movie. Wakanda was as I imagined a nation born in the Cradle of Humanity and which never suffered from a Dark age, colonialism, nor slavery would look. It looked like I imagined when I was reading the comics as a child. The more nuanced villain worked. The comedic notes worked. I'd call this one of Marvel's best movies.


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## Umbran (Aug 29, 2020)

Two things occur to me, on the day of Chadwick Boseman's passing:

1) This man made one Marvel movie, got a diagnosis of stage III cancer, and then went on to star in his own Marvel movie, and appear in two others, and do several other projects... all while battling that cancer.  That is _incredibly_ badass.

2) Talk of Black Panther 2 has probably been a polite fiction to protect Mr. Boseman's privacy.  While perhaps contractual... it is still incredibly gracious and more than I'd expect from a major corporation.


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## Parmandur (Aug 29, 2020)

Umbran said:


> Two things occur to me, on the day of Chadwick Boseman's passing:
> 
> 1) This man made one Marvel movie, got a diagnosis of stage III cancer, and then went on to star in his own Marvel movie, and appear in two others... all while battling that cancer.  That is _incredibly_ badass.
> 
> 2) Talk of Black Panther 2 has probably been a polite fiction to protect Mr. Boseman's privacy.  While perhaps contractual... it is still incredibly gracious and more than I'd expect from a major corporation.




I expect they do want to pursue the Black Panther franchise further...but what that looks like now, who knows. The James Bond treatment is the Marvel way.


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## Umbran (Aug 29, 2020)

Parmandur said:


> I expect they do want to pursue the Black Panther franchise further...but what that looks like now, who knows. The James Bond treatment is the Marvel way.




Possibly.  They have the option of retiring the character without retiring the property, by having someone else take up the mantle.


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## Wishbone (Aug 29, 2020)

I trust Ryan Coogler and his team will do what they think is right with that property if they want to continue and are allowed to do so by Disney. There can be another Black Panther movie if they want there to be one, but there can't be another Chadwick Boseman.


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## Tonguez (Aug 29, 2020)

It was hinted at that Shuri (or was it fan speculation?) would be the more likely to join the new young Avengers team, so a scene in which she is passed the mantle and gets to wear the Black Panther costume would work.

How they incorporate Tchalla whilst honouring Chadwick Boseman is going to be task for Coogler and the writers.


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## RangerWickett (Aug 29, 2020)

T'Challa is a king. Just let him rule a thriving nation that is free from internal strife.


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## Retreater (Aug 29, 2020)

I agree that we need to honor the legacy of this actor and the character he portrayed. I don't think they should cast another T'Challa, but they should (as respectfully as possible in due time) continue the character of Black Panther. I saw the impact of this character first hand to a community that needed the representation in this genre. (I work with kids regularly, and this is a character that's needed.)
I don't know how to do it tactfully or in keeping with the source material. I think that having Killmonger return, seeing the error in his ways, and picking up the mantle would be an interesting story arc. 
I think that ignoring the character would be a disservice to the creators, the fans, and the legacy of Boseman.


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## doctorbadwolf (Aug 29, 2020)

Umbran said:


> Possibly.  They have the option of retiring the character without retiring the property, by having someone else take up the mantle.



Shuri has been Black Panther in the comics. No reasons she couldn't in the MCU. 

But they sure hell better not recast the character.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Aug 30, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Shuri has been Black Panther in the comics. No reasons she couldn't in the MCU.
> 
> But they sure hell better not recast the character.



I agree completely. I hope Shuri becomes the Black Panther if they continue making Black Panther films. There is the issue of the Heart-Shaped Herb, though. 
(I guess with time travel, that's not really a problem anymore. Go back, steal a plant, and recreate the garden for it in the present.)


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## Umbran (Aug 30, 2020)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> There is the issue of the Heart-Shaped Herb, though.




She has technology indistinguishible from magic. She doesn't need an herb. Or, she'll just gene sequence the stuff out of an old dried sample or something.


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## Tonguez (Aug 30, 2020)

Y


Umbran said:


> She has technology indistinguishible from magic. She doesn't need an herb. Or, she'll just gene sequence the stuff out of an old dried sample or something.



Ae, was going to say that too. With Tony gone they need to fill the technologist slot and Shuri with a Vibranium enhanced Hi-tec Panther Suit fills that role


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## Nikosandros (Aug 30, 2020)

Umbran said:


> Talk of Black Panther 2 has probably been a polite fiction to protect Mr. Boseman's privacy.  While perhaps contractual... it is still incredibly gracious and more than I'd expect from a major corporation.



I'm not sure that Marvel knew anything about Mr Boseman's illness. From what I've read, only his family and very close friends were aware of it.


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## Wishbone (Aug 30, 2020)




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## doctorbadwolf (Aug 30, 2020)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> I agree completely. I hope Shuri becomes the Black Panther if they continue making Black Panther films. There is the issue of the Heart-Shaped Herb, though.
> (I guess with time travel, that's not really a problem anymore. Go back, steal a plant, and recreate the garden for it in the present.)



I mean, all it takes is for someone to have hid some. Or for it to be able to be grown from a cutting or root. 

But yeah. Shuri Black Panther as the tech hero would be really cool.


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## Imaculata (Aug 31, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Shuri has been Black Panther in the comics. No reasons she couldn't in the MCU.
> 
> But they sure hell better not recast the character.




I'm in favor of this as well. Although it will be awkward to explain in-universe what happened to the original Black Panther. It's like when Married with Children had that pregnancy plot, and all of a sudden Katey Sagal had a miscarriage. Chadwick's death is going to be hovering over Black Panther 2 and there may not be an easy way to adapt the story. I hope they don't do some awkward digital double.


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## Nikosandros (Aug 31, 2020)

I also agree that Shuri taking the mantle of the Black Panther would be cool. What I personally would like is for T'Challa to remain alive and king, but he becomes an off-screen character as he decides to focus on ruling Wakanda, taking care of the new international outreach program and his renewed relationship with Nakia. I'd love a happy ending for T'Challa...


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## Tonguez (Aug 31, 2020)

Nikosandros said:


> I also agree that Shuri taking the mantle of the Black Panther would be cool. What I personally would like is for T'Challa to remain alive and king, but he becomes an off-screen character as he decides to focus on ruling Wakanda, taking care of the new international outreach program and his renewed relationship with Nakia. I'd love a happy ending for T'Challa...




Yeah I was thinking something similar, leave T’Challa in Wakanda and have Shuri go out as the international Ambassador who visits the outreach centers and thus gets involved with other heroes. 
You can still have a stand in wearing the suit if the current Panther needs to make an appearance For a transition scene


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## Mallus (Aug 31, 2020)

I would like to cast another vote for Shuri as a post-colonial Iron Woman version of Black Panther. 

I'd also like to admit the news of Chadwick Boseman's death hit unexpectedly hard as the news broke during our Roll20 session last Friday.


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