# Converting original D&D and Mystara monsters



## BOZ (Jan 1, 2004)

This thread continues my idea of “cooperative conversions” started in this thread, converting a series of monsters from similar sources. For this thread, we will be focusing on monsters that first appeared in various original version Dungeon and Dragons products, as well as those from second edition Mystara products.

What I will do is first post the creature’s original stats and flavor text. Then, I will post a basic outline of the things I think it needs, and then I will give you an opportunity to suggest stats and ideas on how powers and abilities should work. Then, I will add more to it and we will continue to discuss it until I feel it’s done and time to move on to the next. As we work on these creatures, they will be posted in this thread, and after 10 conversions are complete they will be added to the Creature Catalog. You may comment on monsters already finished, of course.

For a list of creatures suitable for this thread, clink on this link.  You may feel free to make suggestions, but ultimately I will pick what to convert and when. If I’m missing any monsters from this list or if any of these have appeared elsewhere already, feel free to inform me.


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## BOZ (Jan 1, 2004)

First of all, as a favor to johnsemlak who is converting module X1 here, we’re going to start work on this thread for all of the monsters that appeared in that module.

Aranea are in the Monster Manual, of course.

Kopru, I believe, are in the Fiend Folio.

Megatherium and Phororhacos are right here in the Creature Catalog (thank you, very much.)  

Elk (Giant) can probably just be substituted with stats for the Irish Deer, also in the CC (thank you, again) unless the two are just too dissimilar.

Natives are just humans; the right combination of stats and NPC classes should handle them.

Phanaton and Rakasta (both also in AC9, DMR2, and the Mystara MC) are a couple of humanoid races that we can start on right here in this thread (which one first, eh?)

Allosaurus, Ankylosaurus, Brontosaurus, Dimetrodon, Grangeri, Plesiosaurus, and Trachodon can be handled in the prehistoric animal conversion thread: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67093

There are also several monsters as listed in john’s thread that appeared on the wandering monsters chart.  We might just do them after completing the above creatures; we’ll see.


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## Krishnath (Jan 1, 2004)

I suggest we start with either the Phanaton or the Rakasta.


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## BOZ (Jan 1, 2004)

right, that's what i was getting at.    any preference?


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## Krishnath (Jan 1, 2004)

No, not really.


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## Filby (Jan 2, 2004)

For my part, my vote is for the rakasta. They have a fairly big presence in a setting I'm developing, so I'd find it useful, personally...


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## Shade (Jan 2, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Kopru, I believe, are in the Fiend Folio.
> 
> Indeed.






			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Elk (Giant) can probably just be substituted with stats for the Irish Deer, also in the CC (thank you, again) unless the two are just too dissimilar.




Or you could use the Dire Elk from the MM2.


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## BOZ (Jan 2, 2004)

ok, rakasta it is!  posting later tonight...



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Or you could use the Dire Elk from the MM2.




yes, but the MM2 is not OGL.  matter of fact, neither is the FF so he'd be SOL on the kopru as well.


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2004)

Oops!  Right on both counts.


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## BOZ (Jan 9, 2004)

sorry i took so long to get to these guys, been busy...


X1 – Isle of Dread:

Rakasta
Armor Class:	6	No. Appearing:	0 (3-30+ 1-8 sabre-tooths)
Hit Dice:	2+1	Save As:	Fighter: 2
Move:	90' (30')	Morale:	9
Attacks:	2 claws/1 bite	Treasure Type:	M (special)
Damage:	1-4/1-4/1-4	Alignment:	Neutral

The rakasta are a race of nomadic, cat-like humanoids. They walk erect, much like humans, but are covered with soft, tawny fur and have feline heads and features. The rakasta fight with special metal "war claws" fitted over their natural claws (without these special "claws", the rakasta claw attacks do only 1-2 points each). The rakasta can use normal weapons such as swords, but generally disdain them, preferring to use their "natural" weapons (the war claws).

The rakasta often tame sabre-tooth tigers that they then ride to the hunt or into battle. The sabre-tooth tigers are controlled with knee pressure and heavy riding crops and are fitted with special saddles that do not hinder the fighting abilities of the sabre-tooth tigers. These saddles also allow the rakasta to leap off their mounts (up to 20') and attack the same round. The "tame" sabre-tooths are too ferocious to be ridden by any non-rakasta.

Rakasta settlements average 3-30 rakasta and 1-8 sabre-tooths, and are made up of many colorful tents or pavilions. Although they have type M treasure, the rakasta will have rugs and tapestries of fine workmanship, crafted bowls and drinking cups, and other bulky items of value instead of gems-and jewels.


2E stats from the Mystara Compendium:

Rakasta
CLIMATE/TERRAIN:	Temperate to tropical plains and deserts
FREQUENCY:	Rare	
ORGANIZATION:	Pride
ACTIVITY CYCLE:	Any	
DIET:	Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE:	Very (11 - 12)	
TREASURE:	M
ALIGNMENT:	Neutral	
NO. APPEARING:	3d10
ARMOR CLASS:	6	
MOVEMENT:	9
HIT DICE:	2 + 1	
THAC0:	19
NO. OF ATTACKS:	3	
DAMAGE/ATTACK:	1d2 (claw), 1d2 (claw), 1d4 (bite) or 1d4 (kasa), 1d4 (kasa), 1d4 (bite)
SPECIAL ATTACKS:	Rear Claws for 1d3 damage each	
SPECIAL DEFENCES:	Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE:	Nil	
SIZE:	M (5' - 7' tall)
MORALE:	Elite (14)	
XP VALUE:	65 120 (hatra)

Rakasta are a race of intelligent, nomadic, catlike humanoids. They are a proud, barbaric race of warriors who, while not prone to initiating hostilities, quickly respond when provoked.

Rakasta walk upright, much like humans, with an agile, feline grace. They have feline heads and are covered with soft, tawny fur. Most fur coloration ranges from light tan to dark brown. Rakasta have catlike eyes, most of which are brilliant green. A rakasta has a non-prehensile tail 4 to 6 feet long.

Rakasta speak Common and their own language. Some of the more primitive rakasta speak in a purring voice with many rolled r's and hissed s's.

Combat: Rakasta are fierce fighters who neither ask for nor give any quarter. Eschewing normal weapons, rakasta rely on led claws and bites. Since a rakasta's claws inflict only 1d2 points of damage, the creatures usually employ special metal war claws called kasas; worn on the paw like a glove, a kasa inflicts 1d4 points of damage on a successful attack.

A rakasta who strikes with both claws (or both kasas) in the same round can choose to rake with both rear claws. Rear claw attacks are rolled separately and cause 1d3 points of damage on a successful strike.

Certain rakasta ride saber?toothed tigers into battle. These tiger riders, known as the hatra, are considered the bravest and strongest of the rakasta warriors, and only they can hold the respect of the saber?toothed tigers. Hatra have 3+1 Hit Dice, a minimum of 15 hit points, and +1 bonus to damage rolls.

The hatra use special saddles that enable them to leap as far as 20 feet from their mounts and still attack in the same round. The saddles allow the hatra to fight unhindered while mounted, using both hands for attacks yet still maintaining control of their sabertoothed mounts.

Habitat/Society: The nomadic rakasta are organized into prides of 6d10 adult rakasta plus an additional 25% of that number in noncombatant offspring. Each pride also has 1d12 saber?toothed tigers. When not on the move, each rakasta pride sets up its own temporary settlements, composed of many colorful tents and pavilions.

Rakasta possess excellent artisan skills. They typically own many bight rugs and silk tapestries of fine workmanship, artfully crafted bowls and drinking cups, and other items of value. These items are found in place of gems and jewelry in the treasure of a pride of rakasta.

Each pride is led by a chief with at least 5+1 Hit Dice, a minimum of 24 hit points, and a +3 bonus to all damage rolls. The chief is always accompanied by six of the best hatra and their saber?toothed mounts. The chief's word is law, and is obeyed without question.

Each pride has a rakasta cleric of 4 Hit Dice who casts spells as a 4th?level priest. More powerful clerics are rumored to exist, as well as rakasta with wizard abilities, perhaps as high as 7th level.

The hatra, as the finest warriors in a pride, enjoy a special place in rakasta society. Hatra are held in high honor, since this culture values combat prowess over all else. Rakasta also value their code of conduct, known as the Sri'raka. This code dictates a warrior's behavior. Among the most noteworthy tenets:

• No challenge to fight is ever refused.
• Wounded are never left behind; carry them or kill them.
• Better to die in battle than in one's sleep.
• Give no mercy; never expect it.
• Retreat is permissible only in order to regroup. A new attack must be launched against the other force within two sunrises.
• Never surrender. Those who would exist as prisoners are not rakasta.

Ecology: The rakasta make reliable trading partners when their attention can be turned from battles. Rakasta are excellent hunters, and they keep the game herds from overpopulating.


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## BOZ (Jan 9, 2004)

not sure if they should be humanoid or monstrous humanoid - i could see them working etiher way.

Some sample conversions of the rakasta:

http://www.dnd.starflung.com/rakas_3e.html (or was that http://www.dnd.starflung.com/rakast3e.html?)

http://home.gwi.net/~rdorman/frilond/rul/dm/rakasta.htm (a 3.5 conversion)

http://66.34.111.89/Eric/conversions/rakasta_laney.rtf (appears to be the same as the first one above)


some preliminary stats for the rakasta:

*Rakasta*
Medium (Monstrous?) Humanoid
Hit Dice: 2d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 25 ft (5 squares) 
Armor Class: 14? (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: (kasa or claw?)
Full Attack: 2 kasas +X melee (1d4+X) and bite +X melee (1d4+X) or 2 claws +X melee (1d2+X) and bite +X melee (1d4+X)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: improved grab, leap, rake 1d3
Special Qualities: scent
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X 
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 12, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 15
Feats: 1

Environment: Temperate and warm plains and deserts
Organization: Pride (3-30 plus 1-8 smilodons) (plus chief and cleric, etc)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: (only a fraction of coins, but own precious items)
Alignment: Often neutral
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +X

Rakasta are 5-7 feet tall, with a 4-6 foot long tail

COMBAT

module X1 – The Isle of Dread (1981, David Cook and Tom Moldvay), module X2 – Castle Amber, AC9 - Creature Catalogue (1986), DMR2 - Creature Catalog (1993), and Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix (1994).


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## Krishnath (Jan 9, 2004)

Well, I think Monstrous Humanoid would probably be the better choice.

Additionally from their description, it seems as though either ranger or barbarian would be their favored class.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2004)

The catfolk in the Miniatures Handbook are very similar.  They are listed as Humanoid (Catfolk), for what it's worth.


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## BOZ (Jan 9, 2004)

i'm leaning more towards humanoid.  what's the determining factor that makes one race monstrous and another not?  we have the caiveh as regular humanoid...


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2004)

It's a fine line, but I think the highlighted portions give the best answer...

Humanoid Type: A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head. *Humanoids have few or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities*, but most can speak and usually have well-developed societies. They usually are Small or Medium. Every humanoid creature also has a subtype.

Monstrous Humanoid Type: Monstrous humanoids are similar to humanoids, but with monstrous or animalistic features. *They often have magical abilities as well.*


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## Filby (Jan 9, 2004)

I agree with making 'em Humanoids rather than Monstrous Humanoids... I mean, the gnoll is far more animalistic than the rakasta, but it's still a regular humanoid.


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## Psychotic Jim (Jan 10, 2004)

I second the Humanoid type sugguestion, perhaps giving it a Feline subtype, given the comparable D&D tendency to give the reptile-like kobold and lizardfolk the Reptilian subtype


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## Knightfall (Jan 10, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> not sure if they should be humanoid or monstrous humanoid - i could see them working etiher way.
> 
> Some sample conversions of the rakasta:
> 
> ...




Just in case your interested, here is my personalized conversion of the Rakasta for my homebrewed world. It is based on the old free Savage Coast download on WotCs site, as well as the anthropmorphic template from Savage Species.

*Rakasta*
*Medium-Size Monstrous Humanoid (Feline)*
*Hit Dice:* 2d8 (9 hp)
*Initiative:* +4 (Dex)
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares)
*AC:* 15 (+4 Dex, +1 natural)
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +2/+3
*Attack:* Claw +6 melee (1d3+1) or kasa +6 melee (1d6+1) or javelin +6 ranged (1d6+1)
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +6 melee (1d3+1) and bite +1 melee (1d6) or kasa +6 melee (1d6+1) and claw +4 melee (1d3) or javelin +6 ranged (1d6+1)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft. / 5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Blind-fight (feat), improved grab, pounce
*Special Qualities:* Cat’s grace, code of honor, darkvision 60 ft., detect invisible foes, scent, water penalty, weapon familiarity (kasa)
*Saves:* Fort +0, Ref +7, Will +5
*Abilities:* Str 13 (+1), Dex 19 (+4), Con 11 (+0), Int 11 (+0), Wis 14 (+2), Cha 10 (+0)
*Skills:* Balance +9, Hide +9*, Jump +5, Listen +4, Move Silently +8, Spot +4
*Feats:* Grass Trekker, Multiattack (B), Weapon Finesse (B)

*Continent/Region:* Any
*Environment:* Warm plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or pride (6–10 plus 50% noncombatants plus 1 1st-level leader per 5 adults and 1–4 saber-toothed riding cats or giant lizards)
*Challenge Rating:* 2
*Treasure:* Standard
*Alignment:* Usually neutral good
*Advancement:* By character class
*Level Adjustment:* +3

Rakasta are feline humanoids that populated most of the known regions of Kulan. They seem most prominent on the western continents and would be unique if encountered in the Fallenlands or Triadora. Western rakasta are a very rare sight in the Eastern Lands and are almost never encountered in Zakhara.

Rakasta fur, eye coloring, and skin tones are as diverse as a human’s are and almost any sort of variation is possible. Rakasta stand anywhere from five to 6¾ feet in height.

Rakasta speak their own racial language.

*Combat*
Rakasta fight for their pride but never because of their pride. They often ride into melee on saber-toothed riding cats or giant lizards, throwing javelins at their opponents or raking enemies with their kasa as they ride back.

Because of their keen senses, rakasta must make an additional Fortitude saving throw (DC 15) against attacks based on sound (such as a banshee's wail or a harpy's song) beyond any save normally required. 

_Bonus Feat_: Rakasta characters automatically gain the Blind-Fight Feat at 1st level.

_Cat’s Grace_ (Su): Rakasta have excellent balance and reflexes, taking only half damage from any fall.

_Detect Invisible Foes_ (Ex): When confronted with invisible creatures, a rakasta receives a +4 bonus to any saving throws made for detection. A rakasta automatically gets a Will saving throw (with the bonus) when an invisible creature approaches within 10 feet and during every round the invisible being remains that close. The rakasta does not automatically know where the invisible creature is, just that it is close by; locating it still requires other clues. Rakasta can also use this ability to detect the presence of ethereal creatures, such as ghosts, phase spiders, or someone wearing plate mail of etherealness. They recognize the difference between things ethereal and those simply invisible but gain no special attack or defense capabilities against ethereal beings.

_Improved Grab_ (Ex): To use this ability, the rakasta must hit with its claw attacks.

_Pounce_ (Ex): If a rakasta leaps upon a foe during the first round of combat, it can make a full attack even if it has already taken a move action.

_Scent_ (Ex): A rakasta can detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell.  Range is 30 ft.  If upwind, the range increases to 60 ft.; if downwind, it drops to 15 ft.

_Water Penalty_: Most rakasta have an inherent fear of the water and suffer a -2 racial penalty to all skill checks and saving throws made while exposed to water deeper than 3 feet.

_Skills_: Rakasta receive a +4 racial bonus to Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks. *In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +12. Rakasta also have a +2 bonus to the Listen skill (which they must still acquire normally).

*One-handed Melee Weapon – Exotic*
_Weapon_: Kasa
_Cost_: 10 gp
_Damage (S)_: 1d4
_Damage (M)_: 1d6
_Critical_: x3
_Increment_: -
_Weight_: 2 lbs.
_Type_: Piercing

*Rakasta Society*
Rakasta culture is unique, somewhat mystical, and concerned primarily with battle and honor. They never betray one of their own unless the rakasta in question is an outcast from the society he grew up in. However, since rakasta are so common in the west it isn’t inconceivable that an outcast rakasta could find kinship with other rakasta in a different part of the world, although some outcasts are branded to signify their dishonor.

If rakasta do not follow these principles set down by their ancestors they are branded and cast out of their society and have a -2 penalty to all Charisma based skills when dealing with other rakasta or the simbasta (see Simbasta entry). The rakasta Code of Honor is based on the following general principles.
• Never betray kin. 
• Never kill for the sake of bloodlust or vengeance. 
• Never battle a lesser foe if it can be avoided. 
• Always honor the dead, even of the enemy. 
• Life before death. 

The rakasta of Harqual must also follow the following principles.
• Always defer judgement to the chosen of Rel and Cronn. 
• Honor northerners with good hearts, with friendship. 

The rakasta of Janardun must also follow the following principles.
• Never lie to a psionic knight or in front of the Council of the House. 
• Always be vigilant against the dark ones and their allies.

Rakasta have a racial weapon known as a kasa, which they never sell to outsiders. On rare occasions, a pride will gift an ornamental kasa to another allied rakasta pride or very rarely to an ally from another race. (See above for the statistics of a kasa.)

*Rakasta Characters*
Rakasta favor the fighter class. They rarely become wizards, rogues, or sorcerers but may have levels in other classes such as bards, cleric, druids, and rangers. Rakasta barbarians are very rare but possible. Rakasta often become multiclassed fighter/clerics, fighter/druids, fighter/bards, or fighter/traders.

The rakasta of Kulan are the mortal children of the god Rel, Lord of the Rakasta. They aren’t forbidden from worshipping other gods, such as Bast, but most choose their divine liege as their patron. Rakasta clerics of Rel can choose two of the following domains: Community, Family, Good, and Protection. Rakasta clerics of Bast can choose two of the following domains: Chaos, Good, Feline, Protection, Retribution, and Trickery.


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## Tzeentch (Jan 10, 2004)

-- Here's my conservative take.


Rakasta
Medium Humanoid (Feline)
Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 11 (+1 Dex), touch 11, flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2
Attack: Claw +3 melee (1d3+1)
Full Attack: 2 claws +2 melee (1d3+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft. / 5 ft.
Special Attacks: Rake
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., rakasta traits
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +4, Will -2
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 7, Cha 8
Skills: Balance +5, Jump +9*, Tumble +3
Feats: Improved Initiative

* +4 racial bonus on Jump

+2 Dex, -2 Wis
LA +1?
The Rakasta presented here had the following ability scores before adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8


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## BOZ (Jan 10, 2004)

looks like the majority are going with Humanoid, which is what i was thinking anyway.  there's a lot to look at here, and i'll have a good look at it when i have a moment.


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## Knightfall (Jan 10, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> looks like the majority are going with Humanoid, which is what i was thinking anyway.  there's a lot to look at here, and i'll have a good look at it when i have a moment.




The reason why mine says Monstrous Humanoid is simply because that is how the anthropomorphic template works, otherwise I would have gone Humanoid.


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## BOZ (Jan 10, 2004)

Psychotic Jim said:
			
		

> I second the Humanoid type sugguestion, perhaps giving it a Feline subtype, given the comparable D&D tendency to give the reptile-like kobold and lizardfolk the Reptilian subtype




actually, you were more than second.  

i know what you mean about the subtype, and like the idea of it... but its unprecedented.  is that something we should leave up to individual DMs (like, for example, if a DM has tabaxi, rakasta, and caiveh in the same world, feline subtype would be great) or should we go by the humanoid standard of one subtype per race (or shared between similar)?


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## Krishnath (Jan 10, 2004)

Go with the feline subtype, prevents them from being immune to rangers favored enemy bonuses.


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## BOZ (Jan 11, 2004)

how's that?


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## Krishnath (Jan 11, 2004)

If a ranger chooses humanoid as his favored enemy, he must specialize on a subtype such as reptilian, or elf. Or in the case of the rakasta, feline. He can't just take humanoid. I think it might be an attempt to not make the ranger to overpowered.


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## Knightfall (Jan 12, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i know what you mean about the subtype, and like the idea of it... but its unprecedented.  is that something we should leave up to individual DMs (like, for example, if a DM has tabaxi, rakasta, and caiveh in the same world, feline subtype would be great) or should we go by the humanoid standard of one subtype per race (or shared between similar)?




That's how I do it for my homebrewed world. The Rakasta, Tabaxi, and my own creation the Kitt (anthro cats) all have the Feline subtype. BTW, the new Catfolk race in the Miniatures Handbook lists 'Catfolk' as it's subtype. So you might want to use 'Catfolk' instead of 'Feline' to remain more in line with v.3.5.

Me, I'm just changing 'Catfolk' to 'Feline' for that creature's subtype. You can never have too many cat races, IMO. It's like having different cultures of humans to me, with some additional racial features.

Cheers!

KF72


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2004)

While I think the Feline subtype is a good idea, I'd stick with the current format and give the Rakasta the subtype of (Rakasta), much like the Gnoll's is (Gnoll) and the Catfolk's is (Catfolk).   I wish WOTC had come up with more subtypes for similar humanoids, but in the interest of being consistent, I'd stick to the way it is now.


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## BOZ (Jan 12, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> I wish WOTC had come up with more subtypes for similar humanoids, but in the interest of being consistent, I'd stick to the way it is now.




oh god, you're so right about that.  you have some that are shared like goblinoid and reptilian, but after that there are dozens that apply to only one race.  sheesh.  i'm going to have to go with Rakasta since there's no in-print precedent for a "generic" cat-race subtype.


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## Krishnath (Jan 12, 2004)

Not yet anyhow...


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## BOZ (Jan 12, 2004)

and if i ever saw one, i'd rejoice.


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## Krishnath (Jan 12, 2004)

Well, wasn't the tabaxi supposed to have been in the MM2? together with the Dune Horrors? It might still happen...


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## BOZ (Jan 13, 2004)

was it?  if it was, they pulled it...  who knows, we'll see.

i'll have a good look at what we've got going so far and post some thoughts tomorrow (or tonight if i get the free time)


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## Tzeentch (Jan 13, 2004)

I prefer grouping creatures as much as possible (if just because doing otherwise dilutes the usefulness of Favored Enemy), but must agree we go with the most canonical answer. It can always be changed later if WotC does a backflip and starts adding Feline subtype critters everywhere.


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## BOZ (Jan 13, 2004)

that's what i'm thinking.


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## Krishnath (Jan 13, 2004)

I agree.


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2004)

Now that Humanoid has been decided, let's get back to converting 'em.    

For the kasa, I think it should be a light exotic weapon, deal 1d4 (Medium) or 1d3 (Small), deal slashing damage (like regular claws do), crit 18-20x2, weight 2 lb., cost 30 gp (same as claw bracers and bladed gauntlets).  A character using a kasa cannot be disarmed with the disarm action.


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## BOZ (Jan 15, 2004)

i was just looking at claw bracers from A&EG last night.


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## BOZ (Jan 15, 2004)

I have totally slacked off on the rakasta – I know I promised I’d post my thoughts a couple days ago.  Well, here we go a bit late.  

Stats, how about: Abilities: Str 13, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 10

Skills: how about a selection from the following: Hide, Listen, Ride, Move Silently, Spot, Jump, Balance, Tumble, Climb (I also recommend the cat-like ability for using Dex mod for Climb and Jump)

Feats: unfortunately they only get one… how about one of these – Lightning Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Weapon Finesse, Alertness, Blind-Fight (and I’d be willing to make one a bonus if we agree on that)

Updated stat block coming soon (no, really!)…


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## Krishnath (Jan 15, 2004)

Agree completely on abilities and skills, suggests Acrobatic or Agile as it's feat.


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2004)

I am also in agreement, unless they get a sizable racial bonus to the same skills that Acrobatic or Agile grant.  In that case, I'd give 'em Weapon Finesse.


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## BOZ (Jan 15, 2004)

ability scores look good like that?


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## Krishnath (Jan 15, 2004)

Friggin' Good.


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## BOZ (Jan 15, 2004)

watch your friggin language.


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2004)

Now I know why Krishnath always posts in blue.  It's his colorful language.


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## BOZ (Jan 15, 2004)

you should see him in nutkinland.    for that matter, you should see me.      i'm so naughty...


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## BOZ (Jan 16, 2004)

How about this:

Skill ranks: Craft (any one) 1, Listen 4, Ride 4, Spot 4, Tumble 2
Plus, Rakasta get all the bonuses regular housecats get: +4 to Climb, Hide, Move Silently, and +8 to Balance and Jump, and use their Dex for Climb & Jump.

Feats: Acrobatic, Weapon Finesse (B)


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2004)

That'll work.


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## Tzeentch (Jan 17, 2004)

1 rank in craft is pretty lame. Suggest putting that point into Tumble.

Also, I don't see why they should get Finesse for free. Actual cats themselves don't get a bonus Feat.

Giving them the same bonuses as a housecat looks a bit silly. Those bonuses may be applicable to a Tiny, quadrupedal version of the race though. Suggest going with the more limited bonuses given to larger cats, like the Tiger. I have no problem letting them get a "catlike" bonus for Jump and Climb as per the smaller beasties. So maybe:

Skills: Rakasta have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks, and can use their Dex for Climb and Jump.



> Stats, how about : Abilities: Str 13, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 10



-- Uhm. Can we tone their Dex down? As well as their Int and Wis? I have a hard time swallowing this race as balanced with Str +2, Dex +6, Int +2, Wis +2. Oh, but their balanced by ONLY having normal Cha ... right. It also doesn't emulate the Gazetteer stat modifications. Suggest maybe -2 Str, +4 Dex, -2 Wis. Or +4 Dex, -2 Wis. If you want their statblock to be better, then give the Rakasta in the statblock a Nonelite Array first. This is common in MM for PC races presented as "monsters."


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## Zaster (Jan 17, 2004)

> Also, I don't see why they should get Finesse for free. Actual cats themselves don't get a bonus Feat.




But the Rakasta are specialists with one particular, non-natural weapon (the kasa).  I think the bonus feat makes sense because it reflects that trained weapon specialization.



> Giving them the same bonuses as a housecat looks a bit silly. Those bonuses may be applicable to a Tiny, quadrupedal version of the race though. Suggest going with the more limited bonuses given to larger cats, like the Tiger. I have no problem letting them get a "catlike" bonus for Jump and Climb as per the smaller beasties. So maybe:
> 
> Skills: Rakasta have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks, and can use their Dex for Climb and Jump.




I tend to agree with these suggestions. 



> -- Uhm. Can we tone their Dex down? As well as their Int and Wis? I have a hard time swallowing this race as balanced with Str +2, Dex +6, Int +2, Wis +2. Oh, but their balanced by ONLY having normal Cha ... right. It also doesn't emulate the Gazetteer stat modifications. Suggest maybe -2 Str, +4 Dex, -2 Wis. Or +4 Dex, -2 Wis. If you want their statblock to be better, then give the Rakasta in the statblock a Nonelite Array first. This is common in MM for PC races presented as "monsters."




I agree the Dex should be toned down to 15.  But I like Boz's current stats for  Strength and Wisdom.  Cats are pretty strong and muscular for thier size (which you can really see in a human-size cat like a cougar, for example).  And the 12 Wisdom is pretty standard for predatory animals (to reflect thier superior senses).


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## Phoenix (Jan 17, 2004)

Any chance of seeing a conversion of the Carnifax?  Loved those crazy critters...


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## Tzeentch (Jan 18, 2004)

Zaster said:
			
		

> But the Rakasta are specialists with one particular, non-natural weapon (the kasa).  I think the bonus feat makes sense because it reflects that trained weapon specialization.



-- It's unnecessary to give it to them though. Actual wild animals would certainly get more use of their natural weapons. And as you say, they are not going to be using their claws unless they are somehow disarmed of their more effective constructed weapons.


> I agree the Dex should be toned down to 15.  But I like Boz's current stats for  Strength and Wisdom.  Cats are pretty strong and muscular for thier size (which you can really see in a human-size cat like a cougar, for example).  And the 12 Wisdom is pretty standard for predatory animals (to reflect thier superior senses).



-- Except at this point the CC Rakasta bears little to no resemblence to the original source material. They happen to be cat-looking humanoids with high Dex and low Wis in the source material. Heck going by the original material they have a much greater claim to getting Pounce then weapon finesse.
-- I'm not going to argue fantasy biomechanics, but it's probably unwise to give PCs all the good parts of a wild animal they resemble and zero of the drawbacks. Especially when it really should be a race directed towards being PCs from the start (preferablly with a sane LA).


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## Zaster (Jan 18, 2004)

> It's unnecessary to give it to them though. Actual wild animals would certainly get more use of their natural weapons. And as you say, they are not going to be using their claws unless they are somehow disarmed of their more effective constructed weapons.




Point taken.  I'm on the fence on this one now.



> Except at this point the CC Rakasta bears little to no resemblence to the original source material. They happen to be cat-looking humanoids with high Dex and low Wis in the source material. Heck going by the original material they have a much greater claim to getting Pounce then weapon finesse.




Conversions that go beyond the strictest possible interpretation are pretty common in the Creature Catalogue, though.



> I'm not going to argue fantasy biomechanics, but it's probably unwise to give PCs all the good parts of a wild animal they resemble and zero of the drawbacks. Especially when it really should be a race directed towards being PCs from the start (preferablly with a sane LA).




I don't have much experience assigning LAs to new monsters so I'll have to step back from that issue.  You may be right.


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## BOZ (Jan 18, 2004)

hmm, lots of discussion here.    will need some time to sort through it...


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## Kilmore (Jan 18, 2004)

I'm all about the Rakasta as much as any other DM, and I'm hoping they will be open game for all campaign worlds, but I'm also interested in seeing the updated Tarantella... the one in the old rules that makes you dance like an idiot when it bites you.


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## BOZ (Jan 18, 2004)

naturally, everything on the Creature Catalog is OGL.


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## Tzeentch (Jan 19, 2004)

Zaster said:
			
		

> Conversions that go beyond the strictest possible interpretation are pretty common in the Creature Catalogue, though



-- The original Rakasta are a bit uhm .. lame in parts (their vulnerability to catnip for example. Yes. Catnip.) I have a no problem beefing them up either. But the suggested abilitity scores are too high IMO. They should be on the same powerlevel as elves and other races (LA+1 at most).


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## Zaster (Jan 19, 2004)

O.K., here for ease of reference are some LA +1 humanoid PC races from the MM:

Gnoll: LA +1, 2HD, Str +4, Con +2, Int -2, Cha -2, +1 natural armor, darkvision

Bugbear: LA +1, 3HD, Str +4, Dex +2, Con +2, Cha -2, +3 natural armor, darkvision, +4 move silently

Lizardfolk: LA +1, 2HD, Str +2, Con +2, Int -2, +5 natural armor, hold breath, +4 balance, jump & swim

Troglodytes: LA +1, 2 HD, Dex -2, Con +4, Int -2,  natural weapons, stench, +4 hide (+8 in rocky surroundings)

As you've noted, each of these races does take a -2 hit to some ability score.  

As much as part of me wants to envision the rakasta as heavy hitters, I agree that LA +1 is probably where we want to be.  Or we could give in to our Thundercats fantasies, beef 'em up to 4 racial HD and then load up on abilities  .  I think the Yuan-ti pureblood (medium monstrous humanoid) would serve as a good guide to the kind of power you'd expect at LA +2.  I lean towards LA +1 humanoid at this point, though.


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## Krishnath (Jan 19, 2004)

I would say that the Drow elf is a better gauge as to what LA +2 is.

As for the Rakasta, as it stands now (str +2, Dex +6, Int +2, Wis +2) it should be LA +2, but if we reduce Dex and give them a -2 penalty to Cha it would be at the upper end of LA +1.


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## BOZ (Jan 19, 2004)

OK, before we get too worked up into a frenzy…  nothing is decided yet.  

Looking back over all of your posts, it does seem to me that I have overpowered them a bit on stats.  How about if we do as Krish says and give them more like: Str 13, Dex 15, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8.  sound good?

And as to the out-of-whack skill bonuses… yes, I see now that it was a bit much.  I hadn’t even implemented it into my running stat block as I figured it might be too radical.  So we’ll tone it down.  My reasoning for that was because I had posted several skills and the response I got was along the lines of “yeah those are all good.”  However, we’re dealing with more limited skill points than I had to spread around, so I took a look at the common housecat and saw how giving a rakasta the same bonuses would toughen them up quite a bit.  But, in retrospect that was a bit much.  Not a problem, it’s easy to fix.  How about if we lower the bonuses to +4 Hide, Move Silently & Balance, and keep the Dex mod for Climb & Jump? (as Tzeentch suggested). I agree the Craft skill with 1 rank is indeed lame, but the text described how they were good with crafts and I wanted to preserve that.  It is not necessary however, and I can just as easily add that to Tumble instead.

Lowering the Dex makes Weapon Finesse much less useful – I’ll remove that as a bonus feat also.  Acrobatic is good enough.

Keep in mind – rakasta are more than just “cat-like” humans, and always have been.  A 2HD creature has always been more than what a 1HD creature is – even moreso now.  more than 1HD implies that an average member of their society is automatically tougher than the average human.  it may not seem like that much of a difference to a seasoned adventurer, but how well would a commoner deal with a normal rakasta?  (we know that a housecat can kick a commoner’s ass!)  

“Conversions that go beyond the strictest possible interpretation are pretty common in the Creature Catalogue, though.”  Not sure how to take this one.  

catnip?  I didn’t see that part anywhere.


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## Zaster (Jan 20, 2004)

> OK, before we get too worked up into a frenzy…  nothing is decided yet.




No frenzy at all  ...  I'm learning alot about PC races and level adjustments from this discussion. 



> Looking back over all of your posts, it does seem to me that I have overpowered them a bit on stats.  How about if we do as Krish says and give them more like: Str 13, Dex 15, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8.  sound good?.... How about if we lower the bonuses to +4 Hide, Move Silently & Balance, and keep the Dex mod for Climb & Jump? (as Tzeentch suggested).




Looks O.K. from here, but I cede to the more experienced folks.  I could even see tweaking Str or Wis down another notch if need be.


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## Krishnath (Jan 20, 2004)

Going with those stats and skill bonuses I would say that it is a LA +1, for a total ECL of 3, which puts it on par with a third level human fighter.


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2004)

Oooh...catfight.    

One thing to keep in mind...the rakasta were not originally desinged to be a playable race (unless other source material indicates so).  Therefore, they do not need to be balanced with other races.

That said, Krishnath's suggested stats seem reasonable.
Str 13, Dex 15, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8. 

Compare to the catfolk in the Miniatures Handbook:
Str 13, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 10

As for the skill bonuses, BOZ suggested +4 Hide, Move Silently & Balance.  By comparison, catfolk have a +2 racial bonus on Listen and Move Silently checks.  I think the rakasta can be superior, since they are "superior", with more HD.

If we are dumping Weapon Finesse, we might as well dump the Dex mod for Climb and Jump.

I too agree that the Craft skill with 1 rank is indeed lame, but it is used often enough (for example, githyanki have 2 ranks when they could benefit from other stats much more).   I think it should be preserved, since that way the skill is always treated as a class skill for rakasta, and helps preserve their description as artisans.

For the kasas, should we give them Weapon Familiarity with them, or Weapon Proficiency like elves?   In other words, do we only want rakasta fighter-types to be proficient with the kasa without burning a feat, or all rakasta?


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## Krishnath (Jan 20, 2004)

Weapon Familiarity like the dwarves and the dwarven waraxe...


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## BOZ (Jan 20, 2004)

Zaster said:
			
		

> Looks O.K. from here, but I cede to the more experienced folks.




no no no... never do that!    agree with what makes sense, not who's been around longest.  i mean, i've been here for almost three years but that doesn't guarantee i know what i'm talking about.


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## BOZ (Jan 20, 2004)

Krishnath said:
			
		

> Going with those stats and skill bonuses I would say that it is a LA +1, for a total ECL of 3, which puts it on par with a third level human fighter.






			
				Krishnath said:
			
		

> Weapon Familiarity like the dwarves and the dwarven waraxe...




both sound good to me.


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## BOZ (Jan 20, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> That said, Krishnath's suggested stats seem reasonable.
> Str 13, Dex 15, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8.




i'm offically adopting this set.  



> If we are dumping Weapon Finesse, we might as well dump the Dex mod for Climb and Jump.




if we take it that far, we might as well dump those skills too.[/QUOTE]


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## BOZ (Jan 21, 2004)

just for something else to talk about, here's what i have for the combat section:


COMBAT
A rakasta fights fiercely, expecting its opponent to do the same.  Though rakasta can use normal weapons, they disdain such equipment and prefer to rely on their own natural weapons.  Rakasta are often armed with a special set of metal war claws that they call kasas, which are worn on the paw like a glove.

Rakasta that ride saber-toothed tigers use special saddles that enable them to fight unhindered while mounted.  These saddles allows them maintain control of their mount by controlling the tigers with knee pressure, and do not hinder the mount’s combat capabilities.  These saddles also allow them to leap and attack in the same round.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a rakasta must hit either with both claw attacks or both kasa attacks.  It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.  If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can make two rake attacks with its rear claws.

Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +X melee, damage 1d3+1.

Mounted Leap (Ex): A rakasta can leap up to 20 feet from its mount and still make its full attack in the same round.


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## Zaster (Jan 21, 2004)

If we're going with PC playable humanoids, do the special attacks make sense anymore?  I could see maybe keeping Mounted Leap, but only if they keep thier racial bonus to Jump as well.  To me, the Improved Grab and Rake only make sense if we go with a Monstrous Humanoid type and up the LA.


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## Shade (Jan 22, 2004)

We're not trying to create a PC playable race.  We are converting them "as-is"...the rakasta are no more or less a playable race than a gnoll, a bugbear, or a mind flayer.


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## Mortis (Jan 22, 2004)

*Rakasta PC's*

If you want them as a playable race look at one of the following:

http://www.dnd.starflung.com/savcst3e.html
http://www.dnd.starflung.com/rakast3e.html
http://www.dnd.starflung.com/raka3e_2.html

Regards,
Mortis


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## Shade (Jan 22, 2004)

Here's the Rakasta from the Savage Coast MC.

Rakasta
CLIMATE/TERRAIN:	Any nonarctic
FREQUENCY:	Common
ORGANIZATION:	Band
ACTIVITY CYCLE:	Any (prefer night)
DIET:	Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE:	Average (8–10)
TREASURE:	K
ALIGNMENT:	Any (usually neutral)	
NO. APPEARING:	2d6
ARMOR CLASS:	10
MOVEMENT:	9
HIT DICE:	2+1
THAC0:	19
NO. OF ATTACKS:	3 (claw/claw/bite)
DAMAGE/ATTACK:	1d2/1d2/1d4 (or by weapon)
SPECIAL ATTACKS:	Rear claws (1d3/1d3)
SPECIAL DEFENSES:	See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE:	Nil
SIZE:	M (5'–7' tall)
MORALE:	Steady (11–12)
XP VALUE:	120 or per level



These feline humanoids seem to have originated in the Yazak Steppes. While rakastas are found in steppes, savannas, and plains throughout the world, they are most common on the Savage Coast, where they have adopted a feudal style of government mixed with their ancient nomadic ways, warrior traditions, and mystical predilection. They are the dominant race of the nation of Bellayne.
   A rakasta looks like a furry human with the head of a cat. Its short fur is usually soft and ranges in color from light tan to dark brown. Many rakastas have a darker hue on the ears and muzzle. Some specimens have white highlights at the ears and muzzle instead or even white or dark patches at the extremities (feet, hands, and tail). Older rakastas show a whitening around the face and ears.
   Rakastas have a build similar to that of humans; nomad rakastas tend to be slender, while those who live more sedentary lives tend to weigh more, ranging from slightly chubby to downright obese. The creatures have cat eyes, with vertical pupils. The irises are usually green, but some are yellow or even blue or hazel; a few rare individuals have two colors, most commonly one blue and one green eye.
   Rakastan hands and feet are like those of humans, except for the fur and retractable claws. Rakastas also have nonprehensile tails. Nomads usually have tails between two and four feet long, though a very few have none at all. The tails of town dwellers range from four to six feet in length; most are covered with short fur, though the hair on some rare ones is long and silky. Rakastas are very proud of their tails and spend a great deal of time each day grooming them.

   Rakastas tend to be proud and emotional; the nomads, in particular, are quick to anger. All are convinced of rakastan superiority over other races. Still, most are extremely interested in the world at large. For the nomads, this translates into a wanderlust that demands they explore and experience all things for themselves, while for the town dwellers, it becomes an intense curiosity about visitors and a penchant for puzzles of any types. 
   Most rakastas are usually neutral, but good and evil individuals are more common than the rare lawful or chaotic rakasta, evil specimens being fully as common as good ones.
   The modern rakastan language is Rakastan, which has both ancient rakastan and Traladaran roots. In some ways, it sounds like the common tongue, but it is different enough that the similarities are more confusing than helpful. However, common is spoken by the town-dwelling nobility.

The Red Curse: Rakastas acquire Legacies and require cinnabryl to ward off Affliction.

Combat: Most rakastas carry weapons. The favorites for town dwellers include swords (especially matara and mishiya), maces, nonaka, and sa. Nomads also use these weapons, but they prefer to use war claws, a weapon developed by the rakastas. An unarmed rakasta instinctively attacks with claws and teeth when cornered; some nomads bite even when armed. Any rakasta who hits with both claws in the same round of combat can hang on and bring the rear claws to bear; rakasta nomads make special sandals to leave their rear claws exposed for this type of attack. Because most rakastas follow the code of behavior called the Warrior's Honor (which the nomads call Sri'raka), few of them ever use missile weapons, especially against intelligent opponents. Firearms are considered particularly dishonorable, so Beast Riders, Honorbound, and Defenders from Bellayne never use them.
   Warriors are very common in rakastan society, but bards, thieves, and priests are also relatively common. Wizards are rare. The primary warrior kits among rakastas are Honorbound (found everywhere) and Beast Riders (found among the nomads). Rakasta Beast Riders use feliquine mounts.

Special Abilities: Rakastas have excellent balance and reflexes, so they take only half damage from any fall. They have infravision with a range of 60 feet and superb hearing. Together, their keen senses give them three special abilities: detecting invisible or ethereal beings, blind-fighting, and detecting noise like a thief.
   When confronted with invisible creatures, a rakasta receives a +4 bonus to any saving throws made for detection (as explained under "Invisibility" in Chapter 13 of the DMG). A rakasta automatically gets a saving throw, with the bonus, when an invisible creature approaches within 10 feet and during every round the invisible being remains that close. The rakasta does not automatically know where the invisible creature is, just that it is close by; locating it still requires other clues. Rakastas can also use this ability to detect the presence of ethereal creatures such as ghosts, phase spiders, or someone wearing plate mail of etherealness. They recognize the difference between ethereal and simply invisible creatures, but they gain no special attack or defense capabilities against ethereal beings.
   Rakasta characters automatically gain the blind-fighting proficiency, without spending nonweapon proficiency slots. A normal rakasta also has a 20% chance to hear noise like a thief. Rakasta thieves can further improve upon this ability (just as thieves of other races can improve on their base scores). Note that the rakastan racial bonus is already added into this base; rakasta thieves do not receive an additional 5% bonus. See "Listening" in Chapter 15 of the DMG for more information.
   Because of their keen senses, rakastas receive a –1 penalty on their saving throws against attacks based on sound (such as a banshee's wail or a harpy's song).

Habitat/Society: Rakastas have a medieval level of technology, similar to that of nearby human cultures. However, they tend to view most technology as a needless complexity. While their smiths are famous throughout the coast—able to make intricate and detailed tools, weapons, and armor—most people of Bellayne stick with a few basic types of items. Thus, while plate armor is known, very few use it because they prefer less ostentatious types like leather, chain, or banded armor. Though smiths might make special weapons on request, the ones local customers will buy are the national basics mentioned in the combat section. The rakastas still see little need for specialization. For example, a rakasta smith usually becomes skilled in all facets of the profession (armorer, weaponsmith, blacksmith, redsmith, and metalworker).
   Among the nomadic rakastas, divisions are even simpler; everyone is classified as either a warrior or a youth in training to become a warrior. Most warriors have other skills as well: One might be a skilled builder, another might be a weapon maker, and yet another might be a cleric. Still, all are warriors first and foremost.
  In many other ways, rakasta nomads are similar to their settled compatriots. All rakastas cherish their young. Children are raised to take over family professions. It is difficult for children to enter a profession different from that of their parents unless they choose a military career.
  Most permanent buildings in Bellayne are wooden with stone foundations. Nomads travel with tents, usually a simple framework draped with a large piece of leather.
  Rakastas enjoy sports and games, especially battle-oriented contests such as unarmed combat, running, and riding.

Ecology: The rakastas of Bellayne produce and export excellent wools, tea, finished metal tools and weapons, liquors, and coal. The latter is used throughout the Savage Coast by smiths of all sorts, but most of the country's goods are traded to Renardy, Eusdria, and Herath.
   Though rakastas usually consider themselves superior to members of most other races, elves are considered almost equal. Humans, dwarves, and lupins receive a somewhat grudging respect; rakastas have occasional territorial disputes with the lupins. Settled rakastas view shazaks as dangerous savages and believe other lizard kin to be even worse. Nomadic rakastas respect the warrior lifestyle of the shazaks, many of whom also adhere to the Warrior's Honor. However, caymas are considered irritating, and gurrash are viewed as nothing but dangerous opponents. Rakastas are very accepting of the peaceful tortles, who are well regarded warriors, priests, and peasants in Bellayne. The rakastas hate goblinoids passionately. Rakastas form opinions on most other races on an individual basis.


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## BOZ (Jan 22, 2004)

i'm short on time lately; how does that compare with the Mystara MC entry?


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## Shade (Jan 22, 2004)

It's longer.    

But seriously, it mentions blind-fighting, detection bonus for invisible creatures, and keen hearing (penalty vs. sonic attacks, listen like thieves) among other things.


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## Zaster (Jan 23, 2004)

> We're not trying to create a PC playable race. We are converting them "as-is"...



I won't weigh in on that point anymore -- I'm sure it will be an awesome conversion in either case.  I'm just pointing out that some of the abilities being discussed (rake, enhanced grab, ect.) lend themselves to a monstrous humanoid type rather than humanoid IMHO.


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2004)

Zaster, you do raise a valid point.  While the original rakasta description seemed to lend itself to humanoid, the special abilities are making it seem more like a monstrous humanoid.   

Still, a few humanoids have quite an array of special abilities:  the dark ones in the FF and the stingtail asabi and gibberlings from Monsters of Faerun come to mind.


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## BOZ (Jan 23, 2004)

When a discussion gets pretty heavy, it gets hard for me to follow everything that’s going on.  So, I copied all the posts discussing the rakasta and pasted them into the doc file attached below.  This might help all of you as well.


Some thoughts…

As far as “PC-playable”, here’s what I’m thinking.  I do want them to be useable as PCs.  Not useable as well as an elf, a dwarf, or even an orc, but more like a lizardfolk or a gnoll.  Those less human races are more challenging to use as PC races, and I think the rakasta is comparable to them.  Having more than 1 HD to start with is another similarity.  So, being that they will have an advantage over the 1 HD races, you can expect them to be “superior” in certain ways – this is why some races have a Level Adjustment.

If there is still some doubt on whether to make them Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid, I can always do a poll.

I haven’t had a look yet at those links that Mortis posted, but they might contains some keys to what we’re looking to get done here.

Obviously, the rakasta is very popular, so I’m trying to come up with something that works for as many of you as possible.

As for the Savage Coast variant: we will not use everything in that entry.  If it matches well with their older abilities fine, but there was a lot in savage coast that was very different from previous material.


So, here is what I currently have working for the stat block:

*Rakasta*
Medium Humanoid (Rakasta)
Hit Dice: 2d8 (9 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 25 ft (5 squares) 
Armor Class: 14 (+1 Dex, +3 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2
Attack: (kasa or claw?)
Full Attack: 2 kasas +2 melee (1d4+1) and bite -3 melee (1d4+1) or 2 claws +2 melee (1d2+1) and bite -3 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: improved grab, mounted leap, rake 1d3+1
Special Qualities: darkvision 60 ft, scent
Saves: Fort +0 Ref +6 Will +1
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 15, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8
Skills: ranks - Craft (any one) 1, Listen 4, Ride 4, Spot 4, Tumble 2  (maybe switch out the Craft rank for a Tumble?)
also, racial bonuses of +4 to Hide, Move Silently, and Balance, and use their Dex for Climb & Jump.
Feats: Acrobatic (+2 Jump & Tumble)


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Obviously, the rakasta is very popular, so I’m trying to come up with something that works for as many of you as possible.
> 
> As for the Savage Coast variant: we will not use everything in that entry.  If it matches well with their older abilities fine, but there was a lot in savage coast that was very different from previous material.




Perhaps we could convert the Savage Coast variant as a seperate entry?  Maybe "Rakasta, Nomadic" or "Rakasta, Savage Coast".   Personally, I am much more interested in that variety of the rakasta.  They have a few abilities more abstract than "just another furry humanoid with a few different characeristics than the PHB races" and have interesting flavor text.


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## BOZ (Jan 23, 2004)

if we do them, it will be a separate entry as they are clearly variants.


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2004)

That is fine.   Or you could add a paragraph at the end (similar to a scrag in the troll entry) that describes the differences.


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## BOZ (Jan 23, 2004)

true, that might work better.  we'll see.


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## Orius (Jan 25, 2004)

Wow, 4 pages on just the Rakasta.  They really must be popular. 

Anyway, I'll make a quick suggestion.  How about using the Mystara MC Appendix as the baseline wherever possible?  That converted a lot of old D&D monsters up to 2e stats, so it would give us less to flesh out.


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## BOZ (Jan 26, 2004)

that's what i tend to prefer, yes.    but i don't want to ingore the original source material, as that can provide clues which were left out (intentionally or not) of later material.  this is why i often provide more than one source for particular monsters.

and yes, i agree they're popular... i hope to have 'em done soon so we can share the fun!


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## BOZ (Jan 27, 2004)

so are the above stats cool?  because i think that's one of the few things keeping me from calling the rakasta "done".  


also, reposting the combat section for comment:

COMBAT
A rakasta fights fiercely, expecting its opponent to do the same.  Though rakasta can use normal weapons, they disdain such equipment and prefer to rely on their own natural weapons.  Rakasta are often armed with a special set of metal war claws that they call kasas, which are worn on the paw like a glove.

Rakasta that ride saber-toothed tigers use special saddles that enable them to fight unhindered while mounted.  These saddles allows them maintain control of their mount by controlling the tigers with knee pressure, and do not hinder the mount’s combat capabilities.  These saddles also allow them to leap and attack in the same round.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a rakasta must hit either with both claw attacks or both kasa attacks.  It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.  If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can make two rake attacks with its rear claws.

Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +X melee, damage 1d3+1.

Mounted Leap (Ex): A rakasta can leap up to 20 feet from its mount and still make its full attack in the same round.


and when that is settled, i'll need to work up a "rakasta as characters" bit.


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## Zaster (Jan 27, 2004)

> so are the above stats cool?



I vote Yes.
Can't wait to see the complete write-up.


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## Shade (Jan 27, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> so are the above stats cool?  because i think that's one of the few things keeping me from calling the rakasta "done".




Sorry, BOZ.  I'd sort of been reserving further comments until it ended up in Homebrews, because (even with the doc file) I'm having hard time keeping up with this thread.

Anyway, I'd definitely give it 1 rank in Tumble, because otherwise it can't use that skill (it is Trained only).     

I'd also find a way to preserve the one rank in Craft, since that way it will always be a class skill for a rakasta character.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> also, reposting the combat section for comment:
> 
> COMBAT
> A rakasta fights fiercely, expecting its opponent to do the same.  Though rakasta can use normal weapons, they disdain such equipment and prefer to rely on their own natural weapons.  Rakasta are often armed with a special set of metal war claws that they call kasas, which are worn on the paw like a glove.
> ...




This all looks good.


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## BOZ (Jan 27, 2004)

look again; what's listed above are the skill ranks.


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## Shade (Jan 27, 2004)

I told you I was having a hard time following the thread.


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## BOZ (Jan 27, 2004)

ok, posting this one in homebrews finally.  keep in mind on craft, if i haven't already pointed this out, dwarves have two craft skills at +2 so this is not unprecedented.

how we lookin?


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## Zaster (Jan 28, 2004)

I continue to wonder whether Improved Grab and Rake justify either an LA of only +1 or the Humanoid type.  As written, this thing is clearly more capable than a gnoll or lizard-man, for example.  I'm not complaining -- just wondering out loud and hoping somebody else has some thoughts on this.

Over-all though, it looks great and I'll definitely enjoy using it.


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## Zaster (Jan 28, 2004)

Something else I noticed -- the environment for the Rakasta is listed as Warm Plains & Deserts, while the environment for the CC Smilodon is listed as Any Forest.  Due to the close association between the two creatures, shouldn't there be some overlap?


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2004)

Zaster said:
			
		

> I continue to wonder whether Improved Grab and Rake justify either an LA of only +1 or the Humanoid type.  As written, this thing is clearly more capable than a gnoll or lizard-man, for example.  I'm not complaining -- just wondering out loud and hoping somebody else has some thoughts on this.
> 
> Over-all though, it looks great and I'll definitely enjoy using it.




Let's break it down, Savage Species-style!    

+1 for unbalanced ability scores
+1 for natural armor
+1 for gaining multiple attacks in a single round before a fighter of equal Hit Dice would do the same
+1 for three or more racial bonuses on skill checks 
+1 for scent
---------------------------------------
+5 Total

Also, by the Savage Species guidelines, it could probably warrant another +1 for having both Improved Grab and Mounted Leap.

So Zaster, I'd say you are definitely correct that a +1 is too low.


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## Krishnath (Jan 28, 2004)

Well, yeah, but +5 (or even +6 is to high), should we settle on LA +3 perhaps?

I mean, the Lizardfolk has three attacks per round, and +5 natural armor, but it only has a LA of +1. One has to look at the ammount of damage a creature with multiple attacks can do compared with one that doesn't, such as a barbarian wielding a greataxe...


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## BOZ (Jan 28, 2004)

As for the LA debate, I’ll let you gentlemen go at it.  Remember, we had it at +2 before.

The class is a tricky issue.  Let’s think about this one.  Can we start up a list of humanoids and monstrous humanoids (any source) and see what the rakasta more commonly resembles?  We only have given a few examples of each, how about at least a dozen of each type.

What are the pros and cons of making it one type or another?

Skills are the same.
Superior BAB for MonHum.
Two good saving throws with MonHum as opposed to only one.
Automatic darkvision for MonHum.

So, the monstrous humanoid is slightly superior to the regular humanoid, but there is little real difference.  One question would be, is it an automatic LA increase for going from humanoid to monstrous?  If not, then I guess we might as well switch to monstrous.  If the LA does increase, then I think it might be best to stay where we’re at.

Thoughts?


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2004)

No automatic LA increase for different types.

Humanoids:
Bugbear - rogue
Catfolk - ranger
Goblin - rogue
Gnoll - ranger
Hobgoblin - fighter
Orc - barbarian

Monstrous Humanoids:
Braxat - ranger
Desmodu - fighter
Jackal Lord - cleric
Loxo - ranger
Minotaur - barbarian
Yak Folk - sorcerer

Ranger seems the most obvious to me.


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## Krishnath (Jan 28, 2004)

Actually the LA discussion is quite simple, just compare the Rakasta to other humanoids/monstrous humanoids with 2 HD. Let's see...

Race . . . . . . . .  . LA

Gnoll (H) . . . . . . +1 (low end +1)
Grimlock (MH) . . .+2 (Mid +2)
Kuo-Toa (MH) . . .+3 (High end +3)
Lizardfolk (H) . . . +1 (high end +1)
Locathah (H) . . . . +1 (high end +1)
Sahuagin (MH) . . . +2 (high end +2)
Troglodyte (H) . . . +2 (mid +2)
Thri-Kreen* (MH) . +3 (high end +3)

*This is assuming it's a psionic Thri-Kreen

Of these I would say that the Rakasta rates somewhere between the Kuo-Toa and the Sahuagin in power level, thus I would recommend that we give it a +3 LA.

As for the favored class, Ranger is good, and it fits their culture.


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2004)

I'm convinced.


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## BOZ (Jan 28, 2004)

ok, +3 LA it is.  thoughts on whether Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid?


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## Orius (Jan 29, 2004)

I'd go with just plain humanoid on them myself.

As for favored class, I'd say fighter, as they're supposed to have a warrior culture, but ranger would be a good choice too.


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## Shade (Jan 29, 2004)

Here's an attempt at the "as characters" section.  This is assuming we stick with humanoid, but can be easily modified for monstrous humanoid.

*Rakasta As Characters*

Rakasta characters possess the following racial traits.

Strength +2, Dexterity +4, Intelligence +2, Wisdom +2, Charisma –2. 
Size Medium. 
A rakasta's base land speed is 25 feet. 
Darkvision out to 60 feet. 
Racial Hit Dice: A rakasta begins with two levels of humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +0, Ref +3, and Will +0. 
Racial Skills: A rakasta's humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 5 x (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Balance, Climb, Craft, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Spot, Tumble.  Rakasta have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks. They use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Climb and Jump checks. 
Racial Feats: A rakasta's humanoid levels give it one feat. 
+3 natural armor bonus.
Weapon Familiarity: Rakastas treat kasas as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons. 
Natural Weapons: Claw (1d2) and bite (1d4). 
Special Attacks (see above): Improved grab, mounted leap, rake. 
Special Qualities: Scent.  
Automatic Languages: Rakasta and Common. Bonus Languages: ???. 
Favored Class: Ranger. 
Level adjustment +3.


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## BOZ (Jan 29, 2004)

that's it.    we need a poll, and i'm inviting all of enworld to join in...


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## MarauderX (Jan 29, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Perhaps we could convert the Savage Coast variant as a seperate entry?  Maybe "Rakasta, Nomadic" or "Rakasta, Savage Coast".   Personally, I am much more interested in that variety of the rakasta.  They have a few abilities more abstract than "just another furry humanoid with a few different characeristics than the PHB races" and have interesting flavor text.



I agree.


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## Garnfellow (Jan 29, 2004)

(laughing)

Man, I went through all this about two months ago when I did my own conversion of the rakasta . . . (http://home.gwi.net/~rdorman/frilond/rul/dm/rakasta.htm). 

In my research, I came across a Yahoo Groups that basically imploded as its members tried (and failed) to reach consensus on how to do the conversion.

As far as creature type, the two examples that really convinced me to make rakastas Monstrous Humanoids were . . .

Exhibit 1: Anthropomorphic Cats, from Savage Species

and

Exhibit 2: Tabaxi, from Tome of Horrors.

These were enough to tip the scales for me, at least. I think the catfolk from the Minatures Hanbook are also Monstrous Humanoids, but I can't confirm.

Not sure what it is about these rakastas that make them such a devil to convert. I guess because they had two very different -- but both very popular -- incarnations.


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## Shade (Jan 29, 2004)

Garnfellow said:
			
		

> These were enough to tip the scales for me, at least. I think the catfolk from the Minatures Hanbook are also Monstrous Humanoids, but I can't confirm.




Catfolk are humanoids.    



			
				Garnfellow said:
			
		

> Not sure what it is about these rakastas that make them such a devil to convert. I guess because they had two very different -- but both very popular -- incarnations.




I'm not sure either.  I can't figure out why they are so wildly popular...they seem to be to Mystara what the drow are to the Forgotten Realms.


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## BOZ (Jan 29, 2004)

garnfellow, as a matter of fact your conversion is one of the ones i'd been using as an example on how to do this one.


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## Remathilis (Jan 29, 2004)

When I wrote up Rakasta are a PC race (using Savage Coast as a baseline) this was my version (Feel free to use or ignore)
*Rakasta Racial Traits:*

· +2 Dexterity, -2 wisdom -intelligence. A rakasta is naturally graceful and agile, but so set in there ways they have a hard time adapting to other thoughts or ways. 

· Medium Size: No bonus or penalty.

· A rakasta has a base speed of 30 feet.

· Cat Fall: Rakastas have excellent balance and reflexes, taking only half damage from any fall.

· Low Light Vision: Rakasta's can see in dim light like an elf. 

· +2 to listen checks: A rakasta has excellent hearing.

· +1to Search and Spot checks: A rakasta has keen sense. 

· Natural Attacks: Rakasta claws do 1d4 damage when used in melee. 

· Automatic Languages: Common, Rakasta, Bonus: Dwarven, Elven, Tortle, Orcish. Rakasta know the languages of their friends and foes.

· Favored Multi-Class: Fighter. Rakasta have a long-standing tradition of warrior-hood.


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## Garnfellow (Jan 30, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> garnfellow, as a matter of fact your conversion is one of the ones i'd been using as an example on how to do this one.




Hey, that's great -- did you pick it up off Google? I've got a bunch of other old-school conversions over there that I haven't yet gotten around to post here at enWorld.

When I was looking for rakasta info, I scored a ton of useful tidbits over at www.dnd.starflung.com . 

I remember banging my head against the creature type question -- I guess I really should have asked for advice over here! It seems like the other big question I had concerned which racial skills to give bonuses to -- Balance, Climb, Listen, Spot, and Tumble all seemed like good candidates. I think the direction y'all are going here is solid.

As others have pointed out, the big problem in conversion is that the X1 Isle of Dread rakasta is a pretty different critter than the Savage Coast incarnation.


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## Knightfall (Jan 30, 2004)

Holy Tomatoes! Is this discussion still going on? I had no idea that converting the rakasta would be such a chore. No matter what you do BOZ, someone is going to be unhappy. That's why I used the anthropomorphic animal template from Savage Species and then added flavor text.

Good luck!

KF72


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## Orius (Jan 30, 2004)

Wow, up to 6 pages!  I think maybe the rakasta conversion should have just got its own thread.


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## Klaus (Jan 30, 2004)

I love rakastae, which were one of the main inspirations for my own cat-people race, the Kathos (you can see a dire-tiger-riding kathos at http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/hosted/Pozas/Pictures/Wallpapers/tiger_knight_wp.jpg 

I wanted them to be LA +0, so I gave them:
Type: Humanoid (they don't have any fancy powers)
Hit Dice: d8-1
Ability adjustments: Dex +2, Wis +2 (they're very agile and have keen senses and instincts); Con -2, Int -2 (like a real-world cat, they're fine-tuned creatures, and any phisiological unbalance wreaks havok with their bodies... Plus, good instincts don't quite help intellectual development).
+2 racial bonus to Balance, Listen and Move Silently
Improved Unarmed Strike as a free feat, and they can choose to do slashing damage (representing vestigial claws).
Favored Class: Monk (kathos lost many of their cat-like qualities during evolution to biped form. those who want focus their minds and bodies to awaken these lost parts of their heritage, devloping sharper claws, fierce combat skills, preternaturally keen senses and amazing speed... so most kathos have at least 1 level of monk)


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## BOZ (Jan 30, 2004)

wow, claudio pozas himself!    thanks for the input fellas.  more to come today...


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## Klaus (Jan 30, 2004)

Who? Where?



Back to the rakasta, in light of their stats in Red Steel, I'd have them be a 1-HD Humanoid with bonuses on Listen checks, favored class bard (civilized) or fighter (nomads) and the option of taking Scent as a feat. I'd drop their sonic vulnerability, unless that is used to counter some bonus. I'd avoid giving rakasta a fav. class of ranger (keeping that for the lupins - which are fairly similar to the laika, presented in the Savage Species web-enhancement).


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## johnsemlak (Feb 1, 2004)

Wow, wish I had kept of with this thread.  Very interesting.

Are you going to get to the phanaton?  Anyway, just as a heads up, some one posted a revised 3.5e one here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mystara3E/files/Conversion Library/Races/phanatonsv3.5.rtf


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## BOZ (Feb 1, 2004)

thanks john.  when i offered to convert the module X1 monsters for you, i never imagined it would take this long to get through the rakasta!  but yes, the phanaton is next.


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## BOZ (Feb 1, 2004)

Some of the resources from the aforementioned starflung.com site:

Savage Coast Races and 3E
by Tristan Dunigan 
Rakastas 
Medium Size: As medium size creatures, Rakasta have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size 
Rakasta receive +2 DEX and a -2 WIS 
Rakasta Base Speed is 30 
Rakasta have Low-Light Vision 
Rakasta get Blind Fighting Feat Free and a +2 racial bonus on hear, spot, search 
Rakasta get a +1 racial bonus on REF Saves 
Automatic Languages: Rakasta 
New Feat: Roar - all Rakasta can roar, instilling fear in their opponents. Each time this feat is taken, the Rakasta gets a +1 in the Intimidate skill 
Favoured Class: Rogue. Due to their "cat-like" reflexes A multi-classed Rakasta Rogue class does not count when determining whether it suffers an XP penalty for multi-classing. 


And:


Rakasta
by Jim Lai 
1. Ability Modifiers +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution. The feline Rakasta are graceful, but lack endurance. 
2. Rakasta are medium sized, with a base speed of 30 feet. 
3. Their keen senses and natural grace +2 to Hide, Move Silently, and Listen checks. 
4. Rakasta have claws, giving them +2 to Climb checks if they are barehanded and barefoot. Rakasta can also choose to use their claws and teeth in unarmed combat, giving them the option of doing lethal damage instead of subdual. Rakasta may purchase the Multiattack feat. 
3. Rakasta may make a Will save vs. DC based on the caster's level (or creature hit dice) to detect invisible, ethereal, or phased beings within 10 feet. 
4. Rakasta take half damage from any fall if they succeed in a Reflex save vs. DC (10+1 per 10' of distance) 
5. Rakasta gain the bonus feat Blind Fighting. 
6. Rakasta have good Night Vision, allowing them to see twice as far as a human in poor light and still distinguish colours and details. 
7. Exceptionally tough Rakasta (those with a high Constitution) can call up a short burst of energy. They may add their Constitution bonus to their Strength score for a number of rounds equal to their Constitution or until they calm down (whichever comes first). After that, they must cat-nap for one minute per round they called on the energy burst before they can fight or perform other strenuous activity again. This requirement is above and beyond their normal sleep requirements. 
8. Rakasta suffer a -2 to all saves vs. sound based attacks because of their keen senses. 
9. Rakasta fear water. All Rakasta suffer -4 to Swim checks and if they get significantly wet, Rakasta suffer -2 to all rolls until they are dry. Rakasta may make a Will save (DC 12) to overcome this fear for 1 minute per character level. 
10. Rakasta are attracted to catnip. In its presence, Rakasta must make a Will save vs. DC 12 to avoid touching it, rolling in it, or generally playing. If this save fails, the character will attempt to finish whatever he is doing as quickly as possible and play with the plant for at least (5 - Wisdom Bonus) minutes. Rakasta in this state may not cast any spells or activate magic items, but are not unaware of their surroundings, and may recover as a Free Action if attacked. 
11. Rakasta rely on their whiskers for many of their exceptional abilities. If their whiskers are ever severed, they suffer 2 points of Dexterity damage and lose the innate Blind Fighting feat and the ability to detect invisible beings until the whiskers grow back (or the damage is healed through magical means). Burnt or severed Rakasta whiskers regrow in (1d4 - Constitution Bonus, minimum 1) weeks. 
12. Rakasta are somewhat lazy. They must sleep a total of (16-Constitution Bonus) hours per day, though this can be broken up into shorter cat-naps. Adventuring Rakasta may make a Fortitude save vs. DC 15 to reduce this time to (12-Constitution Bonus) hours per day. A Rakasta's Constitution Bonus may never reduce the character's sleep requirement below 10 hours. 
13. The preferred class of nomadic Rakasta is Rogue. The preferred class of Bellayne's urban Rakasta is Bard. 
14. Automatic languages are Common and Rakasta. Additional languages include Draconic, Elven, Gnoll, Goblin, Halfling, Orc, Sylvan, and Undercommon (sign language) 


and:


Savage Coast Races: Rakasta
by Trevor Mellis 
Known as the "cat people" by neighbouring races, the rakasta are a proud, nomadic race of feline humanoids. 
Personality: Rakastas tend to be proud and emotional; the nomads in particular are quick to anger. All are convinced of rakastan superiority over other races. Still, most are extremely interested in the world at large, explore and experience all things for themselves, while for the town-dwellers, it becomes an intense curiosity about visitors and a penchant for puzzles of any type. 
Physical Description: A rakasta looks like a furry human with the head of a cat. Its short fur is usually soft and ranges in colour from light tan to dark brown. Many rakastas have a darker hue on the ears and muzzle. Some specimens have white highlights and the ears and muzzle instead or even white or dark patches at the extremities (feet, hands, and tail). Older rakastas show a whitening around the face and ears. 
Rakastas have a build similar to that of humans; nomad rakastas tend to be slender, while those who live more sedentary lives tend to weigh more, ranging from slightly chubby to downright obese. The creatures have cat eyes, with vertical pupils. The irises are usually green, but some are yellow or even blue or hazel; a few rare individuals have two colours, most commonly one blue and one green. 
Rakastan hands and feet are like those of humans, except for the fur and retractable claws. Rakastas also have non-prehensile tails. Nomads usually have tails between two and four feet long, though a few have no tail at all. The tails of town dwellers range from four to six feet in length; most are covered with short fur. Rakastas are very proud of their tails and spend a great deal of time each day grooming them. 
Relations: Rakastas often seem arrogant and defiant while in the presence of the other races. For this reason they are very well respected by isolationist races such as elves and half-orcs, but the more civil and personable races like halflings and humans tend to dislike them. 
Alignment: Most rakastas are usually neutral where law and order is concerned, and are indifferent about the affairs of good and evil as well (this is especially common among the nomadic rakastas). Town-dwellers fit equally well into all alignments, favouring Chaos over Law and favouring Neutral over Good and Evil. Truly the most arrogant of races, the rakastas rarely favour anything more or less important than themselves. 
Rakastan Lands: These feline humanoids seem to have originated in the Yazak Steppes. While Rakastas are found in steppes, savannas, and plains throughout the world, they are most common on the Savage Coast, where they have adopted a feudal style of government mixed with their ancient nomadic ways, warrior traditions, and mystical predilection. They are the dominant race of the nation of Bellayne. 
Religion: The favoured deity among the rakastan people is Fellpurr the Great. Fellpurr is a patron of art, war, and travel. 
Language: The main language of the rakasta is Rakastan, which has both ancient rakastan and Traladaran roots. In some ways it sounds like the common tongue, but it is different enough that the similarities are more confusing than helpful. However, common is spoken by town-dwelling rakastas. 
Names: Rakastas generally have only one name, especially among the nomadic rakastas. Town-dwelling rakastas have been known to adopt a clan name along with their "first name," to draw distinction. 
Rakasta Racial Traits 
·	+2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution. Rakastas are quick and graceful, but they lack fortitude. 
·	Medium Size. Rakastas gain no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. 
·	Rakastan base speed is 30 feet. 
·	Darkvision 60': Rakastas can see in the dark up to 60 feet away. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and rakastas can function just fine with no light at all. 
·	+2 racial bonus on Hide, Move Silently, Balance, Tumble, and Spot checks. A rakasta is very light on his feet and graceful. 
·	Half damage from falls: Because of their light frame and excellent reflexes, rakastas automatically take half damage from all falls from less than 50 feet. 
·	Claws: Rakastas have one-inch long claws on their hands and feet, which they may attack with in melee. Each paw does 1-3 points of damage. A barefoot rakasta who grapples his opponent may rake with his back legs, for 1-3 points of damage per hit. 
·	Whiskers: Rakastas have 4 to 8 inch long whiskers on their face, which gives them the Blind Fighting feat for free as long as the whiskers are not cut. Cut whiskers may be healed magically as any wound; otherwise they regrow in 2d4 days. 
·	Automatic Languages: Common and Rakastan. Bonus Languages: any except secret languages (like Druidic) and ancient tongues (such as Nithian). 
·	Favoured Class: Rogue or Bard. Nomadic rakastas are usually bandits and rogues, while the "domestic" town-dwellers make excellent Bards. A multiclass rakasta's favoured class does not count when determining whether he suffers an XP penalty. 


Keep in mind, I think all of that is 3E.


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## BOZ (Feb 1, 2004)

by the way, updated the stats in homebrews.  for the most part, all we have left to figure out is the "rakasta as characters" section.


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## Zaster (Feb 3, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> by the way, updated the stats in homebrews.  for the most part, all we have left to figure out is the "rakasta as characters" section.




Boz, shouldn't Init and Dex bonus to AC each be +2?  I think Reflex save should be +5.

Speed 25 seems odd for such an agile humanoid.  Why not 30?

Environment does not overlap that of the smilodon.  I'd say change Rakasta environment to any warm land or else change Smilodon entry to include warm plains.

Other than that, they're _Grrrrreat!_   (Sorry.)


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## BOZ (Feb 4, 2004)

Zaster said:
			
		

> Boz, shouldn't Init and Dex bonus to AC each be +2?  I think Reflex save should be +5.




oversight - fixed!    (on my copy)



> Speed 25 seems odd for such an agile humanoid.  Why not 30?




maybe that's why they ride tigers.    speed =/= agility.  



> Environment does not overlap that of the smilodon.  I'd say change Rakasta environment to any warm land or else change Smilodon entry to include warm plains.




i might change the smilodon, sooner or later.



> Other than that, they're _Grrrrreat!_   (Sorry.)




thanks.


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## Filby (Feb 4, 2004)

I strongly agree with the thing about smilodons' environment, due to the fact that they were in fact limited exclusively to the warm plains of areas like California, Mexico, and Argentina.


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## BOZ (Feb 5, 2004)

ok, the smilodon will be updated the next time i sign on to the CC admin...

ok, due to time constraints, i quickie-added shade's "Rakasta as characters" section, and am updating in homebrews.  i await further comments.


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## Shade (Feb 5, 2004)

For bonus language choices, how about Draconic, Gnoll, Goblin, Halfling?  Creatures that speak these languages share their environment.


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## BOZ (Feb 5, 2004)

CR: 1?

Treasure: 50% coins, standard goods, standard items?  (they don’t have much money, but make their own fine art)

Weight: maybe 200 pounds?

Rake attack bonus, +2?

Favored class: Ranger?


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## Shade (Feb 5, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> CR: 1?




I'd say CR 2.  They are closer to a bugbear than a gnoll in power.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Treasure: 50% coins, standard goods, standard items?  (they don’t have much money, but make their own fine art)




Sounds good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Weight: maybe 200 pounds?




I pictured them as slender, more like an elf.  Maybe 150 pounds?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Rake attack bonus, +2?




I believe so.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Favored class: Ranger?




Yes!


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## BOZ (Feb 5, 2004)

OK, CR 2 then?  

150 lbs – yeah, I guess so.  I was looking at orc, which is more than 200.  I think they would be slender, but not so much as an elf would be.


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## BOZ (Feb 6, 2004)

FYI, discussion of the Savage Coast variant will begin when the ordinary rakasta is finished.  

Should I add the weapon’s stats for the kasa (suggested stats given on page 1 or 2 of this thread by shade) to the combat section?

Which 3 or 4 domains should a rakasta cleric be able to choose from?  (I suggest at least Animal and War)

Do we consider skills for Racial skills if the rakasta has no ranks in it (if it only has a racial bonus and/or ability bonus)?


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## BOZ (Feb 6, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> For the kasa, I think it should be a light exotic weapon, deal 1d4 (Medium) or 1d3 (Small), deal slashing damage (like regular claws do), crit 18-20x2, weight 2 lb., cost 30 gp (same as claw bracers and bladed gauntlets).  A character using a kasa cannot be disarmed with the disarm action.




there - found it.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Which 3 or 4 domains should a rakasta cleric be able to choose from?  (I suggest at least Animal and War)




I like Animal and War.  Perhaps Luck and/or Travel for the others?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Do we consider skills for Racial skills if the rakasta has no ranks in it (if it only has a racial bonus and/or ability bonus)?




It appears that only skill ranks count for it to be considered a racial skill.  For example, a mind flayer does not have Diplomacy listed as a class skill, but does have a +7 bonus based on Charisma and synergy bonus.


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## BOZ (Feb 6, 2004)

i'd say Luck.  maybe we can include Travel also?

ok then, that reduces its racial skills down to Craft, Listen, Ride, Spot, and Tumble correct?

and again, should I add the weapon’s stats for the kasa (see about 3 posts back) to the combat section?


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i'd say Luck.  maybe we can include Travel also?




I'd like to see them with both.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> ok then, that reduces its racial skills down to Craft, Listen, Ride, Spot, and Tumble correct?




I believe that is correct.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> and again, should I add the weapon’s stats for the kasa (see about 3 posts back) to the combat section?




I'd add them at the end of the description.  I think that's how they did it with the desmodu in MM2.


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## BOZ (Feb 6, 2004)

what format?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> For the kasa, I think it should be a light exotic weapon, deal 1d4 (Medium) or 1d3 (Small), deal slashing damage (like regular claws do), crit 18-20x2, weight 2 lb., cost 30 gp (same as claw bracers and bladed gauntlets). A character using a kasa cannot be disarmed with the disarm action.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2004)

This appears to be the format...

Rakasta Items

Kasa: Rakasta are often armed with a special set of metal war claws that they call kasas, which are worn on the paw like a glove.  A kasa is a light exotic weapon that deals 1d4 (Medium) or 1d3 (Small) points of slashing damage on a hit with a critical range of 18-20x2.  A character using a kasa cannot be disarmed with the disarm action.  Cost: 30 gp (price is for one kasa). Weight: 2 lb.


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## BOZ (Feb 6, 2004)

would it have a Small version?

updating in homebrews.    how is it looking?


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2004)

I guess you don't really need a small version, unless some halfling goes and trains with one.    

Do my eyes deceive me, or is this conversion finally nearing an end?!?


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## BOZ (Feb 7, 2004)

i don't know, have a look at it and tell me.  

and here's the question i must pose to shade and anyone else who wants to see it - do you want the Savage Coast variant to be a few paragraphs at the end of the rakasta entry, or do you want to give this thing its own entry??


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## Shade (Feb 8, 2004)

I think it is finished.

As for the Savage Coast version, I'm up for either method, but I think the paragraphs at the end would be sufficient.  IIRC, the main differences were the addition of the ability to detect invisible things, blind-fight, and some flavor text.


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## BOZ (Feb 9, 2004)

sounds cool.  i'll write that up in a minute.


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## BOZ (Feb 9, 2004)

meh?  (borrowed a few things from knightfall's writeup)

SAVAGE COAST RAKASTA
The Savage Coast region of Mystara is home to a hardier breed of rakasta.  These rakasta have developed a feudal style of government mixed with their nomadic ways of old, and their warrior traditions and mystical tendencies.  These rakasta are known to carry and use other melee weapons besides the kasa, and their technology level is comparable to other nearby humanoid cultures.  Hatra are not common among these town-dwelling rakasta.  

This breed of rakasta has developed additional abilities that their nomadic cousins do not possess.  These are discussed following:

Bonus Feat: Rakasta characters automatically gain the Blind-Fight Feat at 1st level.

Cat’s Grace (Su): Rakasta have excellent balance and reflexes, taking only half damage from any fall.

Detect Invisible Foes (Ex): When confronted with invisible creatures, a rakasta receives a +4 bonus to any saving throws made for detection. A rakasta automatically gets a Will saving throw (with the bonus) when an invisible creature approaches within 10 feet and during every round the invisible being remains that close. The rakasta does not automatically know where the invisible creature is, just that it is close by; locating it still requires other clues. Rakasta can also use this ability to detect the presence of ethereal creatures, such as ghosts, phase spiders, or someone wearing plate mail of etherealness. They recognize the difference between things ethereal and those simply invisible but gain no special attack or defense capabilities against ethereal beings.

Keen Hearing (Ex): Rakasta receive a +4 racial bonus to Listen checks.  Because of their keen senses, rakasta must make an additional Fortitude saving throw (DC 15) against attacks based on sound (such as a banshee's wail or a harpy's song) beyond any save normally required.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> SAVAGE COAST RAKASTA
> The Savage Coast region of Mystara is home to a hardier breed of rakasta.  These rakasta have developed a feudal style of government mixed with their nomadic ways of old, and their warrior traditions and mystical tendencies.  These rakasta are known to carry and use other melee weapons besides the kasa, and their technology level is comparable to other nearby humanoid cultures.  Hatra are not common among these town-dwelling rakasta.
> 
> This breed of rakasta has developed additional abilities that their nomadic cousins do not possess.  These are discussed following:




Lookin' good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Bonus Feat: Rakasta characters automatically gain the Blind-Fight Feat at 1st level.




Cool.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Cat’s Grace (Su): Rakasta have excellent balance and reflexes, taking only half damage from any fall.




Could we come up with a different name?   Cat's Grace imply that they get the benefit of the spell of the same name.  Perhaps Feline Grace or Cat's Agility?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Detect Invisible Foes (Ex): When confronted with invisible creatures, a rakasta receives a +4 bonus to any saving throws made for detection. A rakasta automatically gets a Will saving throw (with the bonus) when an invisible creature approaches within 10 feet and during every round the invisible being remains that close. The rakasta does not automatically know where the invisible creature is, just that it is close by; locating it still requires other clues. Rakasta can also use this ability to detect the presence of ethereal creatures, such as ghosts, phase spiders, or someone wearing plate mail of etherealness. They recognize the difference between things ethereal and those simply invisible but gain no special attack or defense capabilities against ethereal beings.




Hmmm...the only Will save allowed by invisibility is to determine whether you become invisible (harmless).   Instead, how about a +4 bonus on Spot and Listen checks to notice the presence of invisible creatures?   Here's the relevant text that gave me this idea...

"A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance)."

"A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.) A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location."




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Keen Hearing (Ex): Rakasta receive a +4 racial bonus to Listen checks.  Because of their keen senses, rakasta must make an additional Fortitude saving throw (DC 15) against attacks based on sound (such as a banshee's wail or a harpy's song) beyond any save normally required.




Maybe instead of making an additional save, we could instead give them vulnerability to sonic?

Also, I'd recommend adding a note that this variant of rakasta's favored class is fighter, based on this text:

"Among the nomadic rakastas, divisions are even simpler; everyone is classified as either a warrior or a youth in training to become a warrior. Most warriors have other skills as well: One might be a skilled builder, another might be a weapon maker, and yet another might be a cleric. Still, all are warriors first and foremost."


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## BOZ (Feb 9, 2004)

I like “Feline Grace”.  I had the same feelings about calling it the same name as a distinctive spell.  Of course, I have a better idea how to handle these guys.

How about, we simplify all of that info into two paragraphs.  The first one would be as-is (adding a note about Fighter as favored class), and the second paragraph would be as so:

This breed of rakasta has developed additional abilities that their nomadic cousins do not possess.  These rakasta have excellent balance and reflexes, and take only half damage from any fall.  They have unusually keen senses, and receive a +4 racial bonus to Listen checks.  Because of their keen hearing, rakasta suffer a –X penalty against all saving throws against sonic attacks.  Rakasta sight is also very keen, providing them with Blind-Fight as a bonus feat.  Rakasta intuitively sense the presence of invisible or ethereal creatures within 10 feet, and receive a +4 bonus on Spot and Listen checks to find such creatures.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2004)

Good call!   I like it.  How about a -2 penalty on saves vs. sonic attacks?  (Elves get +2 vs. enchanments, dwarves +2 vs. spells and spell-like abilities, so 2 seems a good number).


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## BOZ (Feb 9, 2004)

very good.  if you are satisfied with those two paragraphs, then we can call the rakasta done.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2004)

I'm satisfied.


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## BOZ (Feb 9, 2004)

groovin!  we'll start the phanaton ASAP.

AND... that means we have 10 completed conversions to add to the CC!  woohoo!


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2004)

No critter was more fitting to finish out the 10.  It felt like ten conversions in one!


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

well, this one shouldn't be so difficult, or so hotly debated.  

first, 3 similar sets of OD&D stats:

X1:

Phanaton
Armor Class: 7 
Hit Dice: 1-1 
Move: 150’ (50’) 
Attacks: 1 
Damage: 1-6 or by weapon
No. Appearing: 0, 3-18 
village 30-300)
Save As: Fighter: 1
Morale: 7
Treasure Type: Nil
Alignment: Lawful

The Phanaton look like a cross between raccoons and monkeys. They are roughly halfling-size and have 4' long tails that can grasp objects, and even manipulate them clumsily. For example, when fighting in the trees, a phanaton will often wrap its tail around a branch for support. In addition, phanatons have membranes of skin stretching from arm to leg, that they can spread and glide from branch to branch. They have a +2 bonus on all saving throws due to their small size and agility.

Phanaton prefer to eat fruits and vegetables, though they may eat meat. They live in tree-top villages built on platforms of wood and woven vines connected by rope bridges. Each village of 30-300 will be a separate clan. They are the allies of treants and dryads, and are friendly with elves. Phanaton are the traditional enemies of aranea, the spider-folk, and will attack them on sight.

For every 30 phanaton, there will be a clan war chief who will have 3 hit dice and at least 15 hit points. He will also have a bodyguard of 2-12 phanaton warriors who fight as 2 hit dice monsters and have 7-10 (1d6 +4) hit points each. For every hundred phanaton, there will be a tribal subchief with 6 hit dice, 30 hit points, and a +1 bonus to all damage rolls. The subchief will have 2-8 (2d4) bodyguards with 3 hit dice and 15 hit points. If 300 phanaton are encountered, there will be a tribal king who has 8 hit dice, 50 hit points, and a +2 bonus to all damage rolls. His bodyguards will be 4 phanaton warriors with 6 hit dice, 30 hit points, and a +1 bonus to all damage rolls.


AC 9:

PHANATON

Armour Class:	7
Hit Dice:	1-1
Move:	90' (30')
glide	150' (50')
Attacks:	1 Weapon
Damage 1-6 or by weapon
No. Appearing:	0 (3-18 – village 30-300)

Save As: Fighter: 1
Morale: 7
Treasure Type: Nil
Intelligence: 8
 Alignment: Lawful
XP Value: 5

The phanaton look like a cross between raccoons and monkeys. They are roughly halfling-size and have 4-foot-long tails that can grasp objects and even manipulate them clumsily. For example, when righting in the trees, a phanaton often wraps its tail around a branch for support. In addition, phanaton have membranes of skin stretching from arm to leg, which can be spread to allow them to glide from branch to branch. They have a + 2 bonus on all Saving Throws due to their small size and agility.

Phanaton prefer to eat fruit and vegetables, although they may cat meat. They live in tree-top villages built on platforms of wood and woven vines connected by rope bridges, Each village houses a distinct clan of 30-300 phanatons.

For every 30 phanaton there is a clan war-chief who has 3 hit dice and at least 15 hit points. The war-chief also has a bodyguard of 2d6 phanaton warriors who fight as 2 hit dice monsters, and has 1d6+4 hit dice, 30 hit points, and a +1 bonus to all damage rolls.  The sub-chief has 2d4 bodyguards who each have 3 hit dice and 15 hit points. If 300 phanaton are encountered, they are led by a tribal king who has 8 hit dice, 50 hit points, and a +2 bonus to all damage rolls. The king has four phanaton warriors who act as bodyguards, each his 6 hit dice, 30 hit points and +1 bonus to all damage rolls.

Phanaton are the allies of treants and dryads, and are friendly with elves.  They are the traditional enemies of aranea, the spider-folk (see page 60), and attack them on sight.


DMR2:

Phanaton

Armor Class:	7
Hit Dice:	1-1 (S)
Move:	90' (30')
Glide	150' (50')
Attacks:	1 weapon
Damage: 1-6 or by weapon
No. Appearing:	0 (3d6; village 3d10x10)
Save As: Fighter: 1
Morale: 7
Treasure Type: Nil
Intelligence: 8
 Alignment: Lawful
XP Value: 5

Monster Type: Monster (Rare).
Phanatons look like a cross between raccoons and monkeys. They are roughly the size of halflings and have four-foot-long tails that can grasp objects and even clumsily manipulate them. For example, when fighting in the trees, a phanaton often wraps its tail around a branch for support.

In addition, phanaton have membranes of skin stretching from arm to leg, which can be spread to allow them to glide from branch to branch. They have a + 2 bonus on all saving throws due to their small size and superior agility.

Phanatons are omnivores.  They prefer to eat fruit and vegetables, although they may eat meat. They find spiders particularly delicious.  They live in treetop villages built on platforms of wood and woven vines connected by rope bridges. Each village houses a distinct clan of 30-300 phanatons.

For every 30 phanatons there is a clan warchief who has 3 Hit Dice and at least 15 hit points. The warchief also has a bodyguard of 2d6 phanaton warriors who fight as 2 Hit Dice monsters, and have 1d6+4 Hit Dice, 30 hit points, and a +1 bonus to all damage rolls.

If 300 phanatons are encountered, they are led by a tribal king who has 8 Hit Dice, 50 hit points, and a +2 bonus to all damage rolls. The king has four phanaton warriors who act as his loyal bodyguards. Each phanaton bodyguard has 6 Hit Dice, 30 hit points and a +1 bonus to all damage rolls.

Phanaton are the allies of treants and dryads, and are usually quite friendly with elves.  They are the traditional and instinctive enemies of araneas, the spider-folk, and attack them on sight.

Terrain: Jungle.


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

then, from the 2E Mystara MC:

Phanaton
CLIMATE/TERRAIN:	Tropical or subtropical jungles and forests
FREQUENCY:	Rare	
ORGANIZATION:	Clan
ACTIVITY CYCLE:	Any	
DIET:	Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE:	Average (8 - 10)	
TREASURE:	Nil
ALIGNMENT:	Chaotic Good	
NO. APPEARING:	3d6
ARMOR CLASS:	7	
MOVEMENT:	9, Gl 15
HIT DICE:	1 - 1	
THAC0:	20
NO. OF ATTACKS:	1	
DAMAGE/ATTACK:	1d4 (bite) or by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS:	Surprise	
SPECIAL DEFENCES:	+2 bonus on all saving throws
MAGIC RESISTANCE:	Nil	
SIZE:	S (3' tall)
MORALE:	Average (8)	
XP VALUE:	35   Warrior: 120   Chief:  270   King:  2,000

Phanatons are odd, seldom-seen. intelligent forest-dwellers that have very strong ties to nature.

A phanaton looks like a cross between a raccoon and a monkey, though its face has an almost human quality in terms of subtle expressions. A phanaton is roughly the size of a halfling, and has a 4-foot-long prehensile tail. In addition, a phanaton has membranes of skin stretching from arm to leg; these can be spread to glide from branch to branch.

A phanaton's coloration resembles a raccoon, with a dark mask over the eyes, gray-brown fur, and a ringed tail. The phanaton's hands are like a monkey's, including opposable thumbs. A phanaton's eyes are bright green, fiery red, or shiny yellow. In the dark, phanaton eyes can give travelers quite a scare.

Phanatons speak the languages of elves and treants, as well as their own language that consists largely of hoots, chatters, and clicks.

Combat: Their gentle nature makes phanatons slow to attack strangers, though they fight fanatically to save the natural beauty around them from destruction. As a rule, phanatons will not opt for direct attacks on bigger or more numerous foes. Phanatons use the forest setting in order to launch harrying sneak attacks: they are naturally quiet, which gives opponents a -3 penalty to surprise rolls. When among trees, phanatons can move silently like thieves with a 75% chance of success.

Phanatons hate aranea intensely, and will attack them on sight, casting aside all tactics and stealth.

Phanatons use simple weapons such as clubs, staves, and nets. Most of their weapons are fabricated simply with materials at hand. Phanatons rarely use metal weapons.

When not using weapons, phanatons deliver a bite that causes 1d4 points of damage.

Phanatons have extremely acute senses arid therefore have an empathy with their forest surroundings. This gives them a +2 bonus on all their saving throws.

When a group of 10 phanatons is encountered, the group will include a warrior (n'chala) with 2 Hit Dice and 10 hit points. In a group of 30 phanatons, there is a clan warchief with 3 Hit Dice, at least 15 hit points, and a +1 bonus to all damage rolls. The warchief has 2d6 n'chala as guards. If 300 adult phanatons arc encountered, they are led by a tribal king with 8 Hit Dice, 50 hit points, and a +2 bonus to all damage rolls.

Habitat/Society: Each phanaton tribe is made up of clans. Phanaton clans have 3d10 x 10 adult members plus an additional 25% of that number in offspring. Clans live in villages built on platforms of wood and woven vines connected by a network of rope bridges.

Phanatons can live for 80 years. Their litters have 1d6 kits. The kits grow to maturity in six months.

Though phanatons do not have a written language, they love to pass down stokes and legends from generation to generation. In fact, many phanaton names are followed by a list of the phanaton's ancestors' accomplishments.

Phanatons are the allies of treants and dryads, and are usually very friendly with elves - especially wood elves. The aranea are their traditional enemies.

Phanatons often run afoul of humans, humanoids, and demihumans who attempt to cut down forests. Phanatons try to halt timber efforts by secretly sabotaging equipment and playing annoying, nonlethal tricks on the woodcutters.

Ecology: A healthy woods or jungle is often a sign of phanaton influence. These creatures enjoy tending the woods around them, cultivating favorite plants, clearing away dead plant matter, and ensuring that the balance of nature in their area is maintained.

Phanatons are omnivorous. They prefer to cat fruits and vegetables, but they also eat meat; they find spiders to be especially delicious.


some preliminary stats for the phanaton:

*Phanaton*
Small Monstrous Humanoid?
Hit Dice: 1d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 25 ft (5 squares)  (glide 40 ft??)
Armor Class: 13 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+X
Attack: Bite +X melee (1d4+X)
Full Attack: Bite +X melee (1d4+X) or weapon
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: X
Special Qualities: X
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 10, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 4?
Feats: 1

Environment: Warm forest
Organization: X
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Usually chaotic good
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +X


A phanaton is 3 feet tall, with a 4-foot-long tail

A phanaton speaks Elven, Sylvan

COMBAT


Originally found in module X1 – The Isle of Dread (1981, David Cook and Tom Moldvay), AC9 - Creature Catalogue (1986), DMR2 - Creature Catalog (1993), and Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix (1994??).


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2004)

And here's the phanaton from the Savage Coast MC.   

Phanaton, Jibarú
CLIMATE/TERRAIN:	Tropical or subtropical jungles and forests
FREQUENCY:	Rare, common in Jibarú
ORGANIZATION:	Clan
ACTIVITY CYCLE:	Any
DIET:  Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE:  Average to Genius (8–18)
TREASURE:  Nil
ALIGNMENT:  Chaotic good
NO. APPEARING:  3d6
ARMOR CLASS:  7
MOVEMENT:  9, Fl 15 (E)
HIT DICE:  1–1
THAC0:	20
NO. OF ATTACKS:	1 (bite)
DAMAGE/ATTACK:	1d4 or by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS:  Poison coated needles
SPECIAL DEFENSES:  +2 saving throw bonus
MAGIC RESISTANCE:  Nil
SIZE:  S (3' tall, 4' long tail)
MORALE:	Average (8–10)
XP VALUE:  65
   Warrior	175
   Chief	270
   King	2,000

Phanatons are seldom-seen, intelligent forest dwellers that have very strong ties to nature. A phanaton looks like a cross between a raccoon, a monkey, and a flying squirrel. A phanaton is roughly the size of a halfling and has a 4-foot-long prehensile tail. In addition, a phanaton has membranes of skin stretching from arm to leg, which can be spread to glide from branch to branch.

   A phanaton's coloration resembles that of a raccoon, with a dark mask over the eyes, gray-brown fur, and a ringed tail. The phanaton's hands are like a monkey's, possessing opposable thumbs. Phanaton eyes are bright green, fiery red, or shiny yellow.

   Phanatons have a complex language that consists largely of hoots, chatters, and clicks. Some phanatons can also speak the languages of elves and treants.

The Red Curse: Most phanatons live outside the cursed areas. However, those who enter these areas will acquire Legacies and require cinnabryl to ward off Affliction. Many phanatons prefer to use medicines derived from Jibarú pests to alleviate the symptoms of the Red Curse.

Combat: A phanaton's gentle nature makes it slow to attack strangers, though it will fight fanatically to preserve the natural beauty of the forest. As a rule, phanatons never opt for direct attacks on larger or more numerous foes. They use their stealth skills to launch harrying sneak attacks; they are naturally quiet, which gives the opponents a –3 penalty to surprise rolls. When among trees, phanatons can move silently with a 75% chance of success. Phanatons can move up and down trees without slowing.

   Phanatons hate araneas intensely and attack them on sight, casting aside all tactics and stealth. Phanatons also have an intense dislike for Herathians (unaware that the Herathians are one and the same with the hated araneas), because they have had to defend themselves from Herathian colonization efforts over the last century. Although detrimental to individual phanatons, the Herathian incursions did force the phanatons to develop a cohesive government, codes of mutual self-defense, and a universal system of laws.

   Phanatons use simple weapons such as clubs, staves, and nets. Most of their weapons are fabricated with forest materials; they rarely use metal weapons. Their favorite ranged weapon is a blowgun from which they fire poison-coated needles. Victim are paralyzed for 1d6 turns unless they make a successful saving throw vs. poison. Phanatons of Jibarú also use short spears and bows. When not using weapons, they can bite for 1d4 points of damage.

   When a group of phanatons is encountered, it includes a 2 HD warrior (n'chala) with 10 hit points. These phanatons have nonweapon proficiencies in gliding, each gaining a +1 bonus to the required saving throw vs. paralysis and a swoop attack. The swoop attack mode allows the phanaton to glide through the air to sneak up on an opponent (90% move silently), followed by a high-speed dive and slashing attack, inflicting double damage if successful. 

   In a group of 30 or more phanatons, they have a clan war chief with 3 Hit Dice, at least 15 hit points, and a +1 bonus to all damage rolls. The war chief has 2d6 n'chala as guards. If at least 300 adults are encountered, they are led by a tribal king with 8 Hit Dice, at least 50 hit points, and a +2 bonus to all damage rolls. Phanatons of Jibarú have individuals who exceed those levels and many who use magic. Most phanaton warriors are, in fact, rangers; they receive additional bonuses to the forest skills of hiding in shadows, moving silently, tracking, and hunting.

Special Abilities: Though phanatons cannot really fly, they can perform a controlled glide, carrying no more than 10 pounds while gliding. All phanatons may glide for at least one round. On the second and subsequent rounds, the phanaton must make a successful saving throw vs. paralysis each round in order to stay aloft. 

   Phanatons have extremely acute senses and great empathy with their forest surroundings, giving them a +2 bonus on all their saving throws while in their natural habitat.

Habitat/Society: Each tribe is made up of clans which have 3d10+10 adult members and 25% of that number of offspring. Their villages are built high in the trees on platforms of wood and woven vines connected by a network of rope bridges. The rope bridges are not suitable for man-sized or larger creatures. Any such creature attempting to use a phanaton bridge is likely to either fall off or break the bridge.

   Latecomers to civilization, phanatons are just beginning to institute a central government and systems of laws. They seem to be headed toward a collective tribal government with an advisory council of druids and shamans.

   Though they do not have a written language, phanatons continue to pass down most of their legends orally. Many phanaton names are followed by a list of accomplishments by their ancestors, such as "Falling Leaf, Whose Grandfather Longflier Dropped a Rotten Egg on the Head of an Evil Herathian Mage During the Battle of Two-Burnt-Sticks."

   Phanatons ally with most treants and dryads and are usually friendly with elves. Phanatons do not like humanoids that attempt to cut down forests. They try to halt timber efforts by secretly sabotaging equipment and playing annoying, nonlethal tricks on the woodcutters.

Ecology: Healthy woods and jungles are often the sign of phanaton influence. They enjoy tending the woods, cultivating plants, and ensuring that the balance of nature in their area is maintained.

   Phanatons are omnivorous. They prefer to eat fruits and vegetables, but they also eat meat. They find spiders especially delicious.

   Phanatons have a life span of about 80 years. Their litters have 1d6 kits that grow to maturity in about six months. Luckily, they are fertile for only a small fraction of the year. Otherwise, with their long life spans, quick maturity, and large litter sizes, they would quickly outbreed most other intelligent species.


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

oh man, a different version for each of these fellas.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2004)

I think these guys might be easier to work in reverse, thus...

*Phanatons as Characters*

Phanatons possess the following racial traits.

+2 Dexterity, –2 Strength (?). 
Small size. +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, –4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 3/4 those of Medium characters. 
A phanaton's base land speed is 25 feet.  A phanaton may also glide (see SQ).
+X racial bonus on Climb and Move Silently checks. 
+2 racial bonus on all saving throws. 
Automatic Languages: Common, Halfling. Bonus Languages: Elven, Sylvan.   Bonus Languages:  Common, X.
Favored Class: Druid?


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

where'd ya get that from?


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2004)

I started with the halfling, and modified it based on the text from all the various versions you posted.

Also, it looks like it can have a simple fly speed.  I thought that glide would need to be a special quality, but the cloaked ape from MM2 has a fly speed of 40 ft. (poor), to go along with this description:  "The cloaked ape is named for the flaps of skin that stretch from its wrists to its ankles. When not extended for gliding through the treetops, these skin flaps resemble the folds of a cloak."

Also, these little critters should have a climb speed.  Once again, I refer you to the cloaked ape, which has a climb speed equal to its land speed.


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## Orius (Feb 19, 2004)

Initial conversion looks pretty good.

Mystara MC is 1994.  At least that's what it says on the back cover of mine.  

I found a page of notes I wrote up back in the 2e days which has some very basic stats for some of the creatures in the Mystara MC, one of which was the phanaton (another was the rakasta ).   Anyway, I decided that the phanaton would get an ability score adjustment of +1 Dex, -1 Con.  This was because they were described as stealthy, but had a negative penalty to their HD.  So how about say, Dex of at least 14 and Con 8?   I'd say at least a +4 racial bonus to Move Silently checks.  Favored class rogue or ranger maybe?  Phanaton rangers probably take magical beast as a favored enemy because of their hatred for aranea.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2004)

Orius -  Good suggestions.    

How about stats of -2 Str, +4 Dex, -2 Con?

I agree with a +4 racial bonus to Move Silently checks. 

Favored class ranger would probably be best, considering their reverence for nature.   I definitely think we should mention that phanaton rangers usually take magical beast as a favored enemy because of their hatred for aranea.


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

we could take the standard array, give them the high score in Dex and the low score in Con?


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2004)

Sounds good.  That's why I wanted to work 'em in reverse, so we'd have the stat adjustments first.


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

We could give them Str 9, Dex 13, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 11, or rearrange or modify that a bit?


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2004)

I like that array.


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

i might rearrange that though, if we use the adjustments you proposed.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2004)

How's this for the organization line (culled from all the entries)?

Organization:  Solitary, pair, group (10-20 plus one 2nd-level n'chala), clan (30-300 plus 50% noncombatants, one warchief of 3rd level and 2-12 bodyguards of 2nd level), or tribe (300-900 plus 50% noncombatants, one 2nd-level n'chala per 10 adults, one 3rd-level warchief and 2-12 2nd-level bodyguards per 30 adults, one king of 8th level, and four bodyguards of 6th level; villages also have 1-3 dryads or treants)


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

*head explodiates*


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2004)

Hee.


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

Hmm, I’ll see what I can do to simplify that organization line a bit.  


Meanwhile, I shall rearrange the stat array as such:

Str 13, Dex 9, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8

And then apply your mods:
-2 Str, +4 Dex, -2 Con

to create this.  

Str 11, Dex 13, Con 9, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2004)

That should work.


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## BOZ (Feb 20, 2004)

and monstrous humanoid is good?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2004)

I think so.  The fact that it has both "wings" and a tail, on top of its animalistic appearance, would seem to qualify this guy for monstrous humanoid.

That is, unless you wanna do another poll.


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## Orius (Feb 20, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Orius -  Good suggestions.
> 
> How about stats of -2 Str, +4 Dex, -2 Con?




That looks good, considering that they're Small, and Small character races seem to get -2 Str most the time.


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## BOZ (Feb 20, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> I think so.  The fact that it has both "wings" and a tail, on top of its animalistic appearance, would seem to qualify this guy for monstrous humanoid.
> 
> That is, unless you wanna do another poll.




no... that won't be necessary.    regular Humanoid is definitely out on this one.  the only other thing i could see them being would be Magical Beast, but i like to think of them as a playable race, and Monstrous Humanoid seems to be more apt for that sort of thing.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2004)

I'm with you.

You know, I'm surprised these OD&D critters didn't appear more often in later edition sources.  Both the phanaton and rakasta have potential to be "classic" critters.  You'd think we'd have seen 'em in about three FR books by now (despite them being Mystara creatures).


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## BOZ (Feb 20, 2004)

to continue off topic for a moment.    there are a few, but not very many, OD&D/mystara monsters in use in 3e.  athach, aranea, and i think choker come to mind, as well as the brain collector in the ELH, and the kopru in FF.  i imagine that more and more will filter in over time, but in the meantime that's what we're here for.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2004)

Good points.  More fun for us, eh?

Getting back on topic    I'd recommend Stealthy as its feat.  For skills, Hide, Knowledge (nature), Move Silently, and Survival all seem appropriate.


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## Orius (Feb 23, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'm with you.
> 
> You know, I'm surprised these OD&D critters didn't appear more often in later edition sources.  Both the phanaton and rakasta have potential to be "classic" critters.  You'd think we'd have seen 'em in about three FR books by now (despite them being Mystara creatures).




I think perhaps it's because Basic D&D eventually got eclipsed by AD&D.  I started with the black box, and at that point, Basic D&D was on its way out.  These critters I know more or less from the Mystara MC, as I didn't have the old Basic modules they first appeared in.  I always liked that MC, because it had a lot of unusual and cool monsters my players weren't familiar with.


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## BOZ (Feb 24, 2004)

ok, some thoughts as i was riding home on the train...

the older entry states that they can take a weapon attack instead of their bite.  they'd use a simple weapon such as a club or staff.

they have a prehensile tail - i'm sure there is a game effect for this.

their saves would be Fort -1, Ref +3, Will +3

i miscalcuated skills - should be 8

speaking of skills, they need a nice bonus to Move Silently - i saw a 75% chance of success attibuted to them!


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> the older entry states that they can take a weapon attack instead of their bite. they'd use a simple weapon such as a club or staff.



Yep, since they're monstrous humanoids they are proficient with all simple weapons.   A dagger would probably work for 'em too.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> they have a prehensile tail - i'm sure there is a game effect for this.



Well, here's what I found.   Monkeys have a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks, presumably from their prehensile tails.

The Prehensile Tail feat in Savage Species allows a creature to use its tail to manipulate objects.  It can be used as an extra hand for Multiweapon Fighting and grants a  +2 competence bonus on grapple checks and Climb checks.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> speaking of skills, they need a nice bonus to Move Silently - i saw a 75% chance of success attibuted to them!



How about +8?


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## Romata (Feb 24, 2004)

Hello,

Sorry, i are no so good in english, i come from germany.

The Next Time are will play the Adventure "Shadowdale", and i found the creature Quaggosse (The secound Monster in this Adventure). I look in any books and he is no on this written. I found it Under the Name Quaggothe in a book from AD&D and i found him under the Name as Deepbear.

Now i look for the Attribute in D&D 3th Edition.

I think he is a Monstrous Humanoid. Can me any help for convert this Monster?


Sorry, me english is verry bad!

Romata


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2004)

Romata,

The quaggoth is in Monsters of Faerun.  If you do not have this book, you could use a 1st-level bugbear barbarian instead.  This would be very similar to the quaggoth.


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## Romata (Feb 24, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Romata,
> 
> The quaggoth is in Monsters of Faerun.  If you do not have this book, you could use a 1st-level bugbear barbarian instead.  This would be very similar to the quaggoth.




Thank you for the fast reply, Shade!


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2004)

I'm happy to help out.


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## BOZ (Feb 24, 2004)

I think I’ll just go with the savage species version of prehensile tail, as it sounds more like what they would have anyway.

Was I right about 8 skill ranks?  I know I got myself confused there.  


Romata-

It’s OK, mein deutsch ist nicht sehr gut!    your English is better than my German…


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2004)

Would they be 1st-level warriors?   I suppose whether a warrior or 1 HD monstrous humanoid, their skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.   So that would be 8 points total.  So you were right.


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## BOZ (Feb 24, 2004)

the 1st-level warrior thing is not for Monstrous Humanoid - check out MM p 310


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2004)

Cool.  That's good to know for future reference.  You are still right on the skills, though.


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## Sixten (Mar 2, 2004)

Is it time for the next critter?

Is there a next monster up? If not, can I cast a vote for one of the X4/5 beasties, since I'll probably be posting about them in the next couple of days anyway, and would love expert assistance?  

At any rate, bring it on!


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## BOZ (Mar 3, 2004)

actually, we have a ways to go with this one.  i just got sidetracked... sorry.


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## Sixten (Mar 3, 2004)

Hardly any need to apologize. I couldn't really tell whether this was stalled or done.


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## BOZ (Mar 4, 2004)

Need to start these guys up again today.  

Here are some additional links to alternate conversions (hope I didn’t post them already):
http://www.dnd.starflung.com/phanato3.html
http://www.darkwood.org/sj/worlds/Cloudspace/Kreeuli.html (spelljammer phanatons? Wacky!)
http://www.dnd.starflung.com/jibaru.html (phanatons as PCs)
http://66.34.111.89/Eric/conversions/phanaton.rtf


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2004)

How 'bout a Homebrews entry to see where we're at?


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## BOZ (Mar 4, 2004)

it's really no farther than the stat block yet.  


Just to get the ball rolling again…



			
				X1 said:
			
		

> They have a +2 bonus on all saving throws due to their small size and agility.




well, I don’t know that this would qualify them for a bonus to all saves.  Maybe maybe maybe they could get a bonus similar to halflings.  It may simply be sufficient to give them Lightning Reflexes as a bonus save.

Of course, the Mystara MC explains it a bit differently:



> Phanatons have extremely acute senses arid therefore have an empathy with their forest surroundings. This gives them a +2 bonus on all their saving throws.


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2004)

Ahh, then there's little need for a Homebrews.   

Halflings get their bonus to saving throws because they "are surprisingly capable of avoiding mishaps".   Since its not a factor of size, I don't see why the phanaton's would be either.   I could see giving them the bonus using the forest empathy explanation, though.   It is too bad that the Luck of Heroes feat (+1 to all saves) isn't core.  Making that a bonus feat would make this much easier.


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## BOZ (Mar 4, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Ahh, then there's little need for a Homebrews.




yet...



> Halflings get their bonus to saving throws because they "are surprisingly capable of avoiding mishaps".   Since its not a factor of size, I don't see why the phanaton's would be either.   I could see giving them the bonus using the forest empathy explanation, though.   It is too bad that the Luck of Heroes feat (+1 to all saves) isn't core.  Making that a bonus feat would make this much easier.




we could rewrite and rename it and add it as an Ex ability.  i don't have access to that ability (that i know of), so why don't you take a crack at it?


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2004)

Will do.  Here goes...

Forest Empathy (Ex):  Phanatons have an empathic link with their forest surroundings, which alerts them to danger before it arrives.  This grants them a +2 racial bonus on all saving throws.


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## BOZ (Mar 4, 2004)

bingo!  

that will really up the crappy saves they had before... two negative ones, ouch!

come to think of it, why did they have two negative ones?  was that an old thing that i didn't fix yet?


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2004)

The last post on the matter that I could find said their saves would be Fort -1, Ref +3, Will +3.


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## BOZ (Mar 4, 2004)

that makes more sense.  all +2 now of course, though.


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2004)

But of course.


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## BOZ (Mar 5, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Also, it looks like it can have a simple fly speed.  I thought that glide would need to be a special quality, but the cloaked ape from MM2 has a fly speed of 40 ft. (poor), to go along with this description:  "The cloaked ape is named for the flaps of skin that stretch from its wrists to its ankles. When not extended for gliding through the treetops, these skin flaps resemble the folds of a cloak."
> 
> Also, these little critters should have a climb speed.  Once again, I refer you to the cloaked ape, which has a climb speed equal to its land speed.




can't forget this part... just reminding myself.


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## BOZ (Mar 5, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Are you going to get to the phanaton?  Anyway, just as a heads up, some one posted a revised 3.5e one here:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mystara3E/files/Conversion Library/Races/phanatonsv3.5.rtf




had to go digging for this one.


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## BOZ (Mar 5, 2004)

ok, did some work while the boards were down.  posting in homebrews.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2004)

Don't forget darkvision 60 feet for being a monstrous humanoid.

I reworked what I originally posted:

*Phanatons as Characters

*A phanaton cleric has access to two of the following domains:  Chaos, Good, Luck, or Nature.

Phanatons possess the following racial traits.

–2 Strength, +4 Dexterity, –2 Constitution.
Small size. +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, –4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 3/4 those of Medium characters. 
A phanaton's base land speed is 25 feet. A phanaton also has a climb speed of 25 feet and a fly speed of 40 feet (clumsy).
+1 natural armor bonus.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
A phanaton has a +8 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. A phanaton has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.
Forest Empathy (Ex): A phanaton has an empathic link with its forest surroundings, alerting it to danger before it arrives. This grants a phanaton a +2 racial bonus on all saving throws while in a forest.
Prehensile Tail (Ex): A phanaton’s tail allows it to use its tail to manipulate objects. The tail can be used as an extra hand for Multiweapon Fighting and grants a phanaton a +2 competence bonus on grapple checks and Climb checks.
Automatic Languages: Phanaton. Bonus Languages: Elven, Sylvan. 
Favored Class: Ranger.
Level Adjustment:  +0.


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## BOZ (Mar 5, 2004)

hey, finally, an ECL 0 race!


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2004)

Well, technically, it is an ECL +2 race (+1 for having natural armor and +1 for fly speed, +1 for climb speed, -1 for size Small).  However, since it's fairly weak, its natural armor is so low, and its fly speed is limited, I fudged a little and gave it +0.  I mean, does this critter seem much more powerful than a halfling?   Its got -2 to both Str and Con, and though it can fly, it can't hover without taking a feat.


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## BOZ (Mar 5, 2004)

it doesn't seem any more powerful than a halfling.    in fact, i think it's closer to a kobold - see what i guestimated for its CR?


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## BOZ (Mar 5, 2004)

Forgot to do this before!  Here are some pictures of the phanaton, for those who don’t know.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2004)

Yeah, I think you're right about the relative power level.   They definitely are better than kobolds, but not by much.


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## BOZ (Mar 8, 2004)

What’s left, just skills?

Skills: 8 Balance, Climb (+8 speed, +2 tail), Hide (+4 size, +2 feat), Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently (+8 racial, +2 feat), Spot, Survival, Tumble

Now, as you can see, these guys get a pretty big bonus to some of these already.  We can probably do just as well without giving them ranks in Climb, Hide, or Move Silently.  Maybe an arrangement like this will do:

Balance 1, Knowledge (nature) 2, Listen 2, Spot 2, Survival 1, Tumble 2


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2004)

Good call on the skills.  Since the three you mentioned are all untrained, then no need to give them ranks.


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## BOZ (Mar 8, 2004)

updating.


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2004)

I'd go with 30-35 lbs. and CR 1/2, and call it finished.


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## BOZ (Mar 8, 2004)

cool.  just need to add the skills to the "as characters" section.


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## BOZ (Mar 8, 2004)

or maybe i don't need to add any "class skills" since it doesn't have any monster levels?  updated one more time - see if you can see what i mean.


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2004)

That's a darn good question.  If it were a humanoid, it would be easy.  But since it's a monstrous humanoid, I don't know.  

Per the Improving Monsters chapter of the MM 3.5:

*Humanoids and Class Levels:* Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class.

I'm not sure if this only applies to humanoids or not.   According to Savage Species, it applies to all creatures with 1 HD or less.


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## BOZ (Mar 9, 2004)

are we making a bigger issue out of this than it needs to be?  can we just let it stand as-is?


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2004)

We probably are.  I'd say its complete.


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## BOZ (Mar 9, 2004)

sounds good.    i guess next then, is the carnifax!  what appearances has this creature made?


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2004)

I'm not having much luck finding the carnifax.  The only reference I found was M3:  Twilight Calling.


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## BOZ (Mar 10, 2004)

when in doubt... i had been meaning to ask in the gen disc forum anyway.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2004)

Check your thread over there if you haven't recently.


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## BOZ (Mar 12, 2004)

You mean here?    already got ya.
http://65.127.163.19/showthread.php?t=80065


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2004)

That's the one.  It looks like nobody's seen these fellas outside of M3.


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## BOZ (Mar 15, 2004)

well then, i think the main problem comes in that i don't actually have that module.    i'm trying to increase my OD&D collection (very small right now), and M3 is one i don't have.  i'll work on getting it, but in the meantime any suggestions on what to convert next?


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## Filby (Mar 15, 2004)

How about the faerie or flitterling from AC9? From what I know about them they seem like pretty basic fey, useful to have stats for.


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2004)

After Filby's suggestion, I'd suggest the tonals from the Immortals set.   Essentially, sonic elementals, IIRC.  The draeden would be fun, too.


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## BOZ (Mar 15, 2004)

i'll see what i can do.  as i said, my OD&D collection is pretty limited right now.


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2004)

I may have a few that you don't, and if necessary, I would be happy to post stats from those sources to get us started.


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## BOZ (Mar 24, 2004)

had a look at the flitterlings.  i'm tempted to make they Fey with the Swarm subtype - think of it, their size, the numbers they appear in, and the way their abilities work scream Swarm.  however, i'm not sure how wise it is to make a Swarm out of intelligent beings.

also, looks like they first appeared in module O2 - Blade of Vengeance, if anyone has access to that.  any other appearances that we know of besides AC9 and DMR2 (the two books called "Creature Catalog")?


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## Filby (Mar 24, 2004)

Hm. Would it make sense to do two stat blocks, one for an individual (Fine-sized) flitterling and another for a swarm? Or would that just be silly?


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2004)

That wouldn't be silly at all.  In fact, there is precedence for this in the Draconomicon.  The hoard scarab has an entry for an individual (Fine vermin) and a swarm.


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## BOZ (Mar 24, 2004)

Not only would it not be silly, I was considering that as an option.    the singular version just wouldn’t get the neat swarm benefits.  I’ll get to working on that soon.  Anyone have the O2 module, or any other appearance to supplement the ones I have to work with?  If so, let me know and key it up to post it when I ask for it.


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## BOZ (Apr 5, 2004)

ok, i'm ready for this one.  looking at it again, it might be better to work some some sort of "pseudo-gestalt" rather than a swarm.  yes, the song works in large groups, but for physical attacks it seems they break down into groups of 5.

O2 Blade of Vengeance – (don’t have, could someone who does post the original stats?)

AC9

FLITTERLING
Armour Class:	6	
Hit Dice:	5* (1 hp each)	
Move:	30'  (10')
flying	60' (20')
Attack: 	1 small sword or song
Damage: 1 or 2	and see below
No. Appearing: 0 (50-300)
Save As:	Elf I	
Morale-	8
Treasure Type:	Nil
Intelligence:	12
Alignment:	L
XP Value: 6

Flitterlings are small, silver-coloured humanoids about one-quarter of an inch tall. They are of delicate appearance and look like small pixies armed with slender silver swords.

Flitterlings attack only in self-defence and their preferred means of doing so is by singing. A group of 50 flitterlings can create a song that has the same effect as a charm monster spell on one opponent. Additional groups of flitterlings can attempt to charm other creatures, but two groups cannot attempt to charm the same one. Flitterling groups are also able to create a song which has the same effect as a fear spell.  Both songs have a range of 60 feet and flitterlings are able to use each song once per day.

Flitterlings are not aggressive, but if forced, they will at attack in groups of 5, using their small swords. Roll once per round for each group of five. Armoured victims (and monsters, of AC 5 or better) suffer 1 point of damage for each successful attack. Unarmoured victims (and monsters of AC 6 or less) suffer 2 points. Attacks on flitterlings will kill a number equal to the damage rolled, but never more than five from one attack.

Flitterlings live in old hollow tree trunks or in specially hollowed-out mushrooms. Flitterlings are so closely linked with their home that they will die in 1-6 days if any irreparable damage is done to it. Their homes are always surrounded by rings of magical mushrooms of various colours which the flitterlings tend. Eating a mushroom has a magical effect according to its colour. The numbers of mushrooms in a typical ring and the effects of each colour are listed below:

No.	Colour Effects
5-8	Blue		- acts as a neutralise poison spell
5-8	Red		- acts as a haste spell for 1 turn
3-6	Yellow		- acts as a clairvoyance spell for 1 turn
7-12	Green		- acts as a cure light wounds spell
40-60 Orange		- acts as a nourishing meal; three will provide sustenance for one character for one day


The rings are vital to the flitterlings' existence and picking more than half of any particular kind kills the ring and causes the flitterlings to sicken and die in 1-6 days. Any character who befriends a group of flitterlings will be allowed to pick some of the mushrooms, but on no account will the flitterlings allow more than half to be picked. The flitterlings always fight to the death to defend their mushroom rings.


DMR2

Flitterling
Armour Class:	6	
Hit Dice:	1/8* (1 hp each)	(S)
Move:	30'  (10')
Flying	60' (20')
Attack: 	1 small sword or song
Damage: 1 or 2	and see below
No. Appearing: 0 (5d6x10)
Save As:	Elf: I	
Morale-	8
Treasure Type:	Nil
Intelligence:	12
Alignment:	Lawful
XP Value: 6

Monster Type: Humanoid (Rare)

Flitterlings are small, silver-colored humanoids about one-quarter of an inch tall. They are of delicate appearance and look like small pixies armed with slender silver swords.

Flitterlings attack only in self-defense and their preferred means of doing so is by singing. A group of 50 flitterlings can create a song that works like a charm monster spell on one opponent. Additional groups of flitterlings can attempt to charm other creatures, but two groups cannot attempt to charm the same one. Flitterling groups are also able to create a song which has the same effect as a cause fear spell.  Both songs have a range of 60 feet. Flitterlings are able to use each song once per day.

Flitterlings are not aggressive, but if forced, they will at attack in groups of five, using their small swords. Roll once per round for each group of five. Armored victims (and monsters of AC 5 or better) suffer 1 point of damage for each successful attack. Unarmored victims (and monsters of AC 6 or less) suffer 2 points. Attacks on flitterlings will kill a number equal to the damage rolled, but never more than five from one attack.

Flitterlings live in old hollow tree trunks or in specially hollowed-out mushrooms. Flitterlings are so closely linked with their home that they will die in 1-6 days if any irreparable damage is done to them. Their homes are always surrounded by rings of magical mushrooms of various colors which the flitterlings tend. Eating a mushroom has a magical effect according to its color. The numbers of mushrooms in a typical ring and the effects of each color are listed below:

No.	Color Effects
5-8	Blue		Acts as a neutralize poison spell
5-8	Red		Acts as a haste spell for 1 turn
3-6	Yellow		Acts as a clairvoyance spell for 1 turn
7-12	Green		Acts as a cure light wounds spell
40-60 Orange		Acts as a nourishing meal; three will provide sustenance for one character for one day

The rings are vital to the flitterlings' existence. Picking more than half of any particular kind kills the ring and causes the flitterlings to sicken and die in 1-6 days. Any character who befriends a group of flitterlings will be allowed to pick some of the mushrooms, but on no account will the flitterlings allow more than half of one color to be picked. The flitterlings always fight to the death to defend their mushroom rings.

Terrain: Woods.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> ok, i'm ready for this one. looking at it again, it might be better to work some some sort of "pseudo-gestalt" rather than a swarm. yes, the song works in large groups, but for physical attacks it seems they break down into groups of 5.



True, but their attacks still function like a swarm attack.   I'd recommend making them a swarm (made up of 5 flitterlings), and allow them to merge into a larger swarm of 50.   Look at the cranium rat swarms in the FF for an idea of what I'm suggesting.


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## BOZ (Apr 5, 2004)

can we actually do swarms of 5 creatures?  the rules in the MM seem to suggest that swarms are made up of dozens at minimum, and hundreds at most.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2004)

You've got a point there.  In fact, by the rules, its way more than hundreds for creatures this size:

"A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are flying or not. Swarms of nonflying creatures include many more creatures than could normally fit in a 10-foot square based on their normal space, because creatures in a swarm are packed tightly together and generally crawl over each other and their prey when moving or attacking. Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. A large swarm is completely shapeable, though it usually remains contiguous."

I suppose we could do the ol' "swarmlike traits" thing, like how some monster that aren't oozes have "oozelike traits".


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## BOZ (Apr 5, 2004)

or with a simliar sort of "gestalt", with several creatures attacking (and dying) as one.  we could optionally make that an Extraordinary ability:  Up to five flitterlings may attack a single target, attacking as one..."


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2004)

You're bound and determined to blaze a new trail, to boldly go where no monster has gone before, aren't you?


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2004)

sure; why not?    who wants the same old thing all the time anyway?  i'll give more thought to this later.


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## BOZ (Apr 9, 2004)

Ok, let’s see.  For one thing, we should make flitterlings 1 hp each, as before.  We can say that they do not normally fight individually, but as…

“Attack as One” (Ex): Flitterlings can form into a group of 5 that are able to attack a single target as if they were a single creature.  Such a grouping of flitterlings has a BAB of X, an AC of X, a Str score of X, and otherwise has the same statistics as if it were an individual flitterling.  For every point of damage done to this group of flitterlings, one flitterling is killed (maximum 5 per group hit).  Such a group cannot consist of more or less than 5 flitterlings, and if any are killed or leave the group breaks up.  Forming a group is a standard action.

Sure, it could use some work, but it’s a fine place to start.    we should probably come up with the stats for a single flitterling to make it easier to figure out that ability.


----------



## Filby (Apr 9, 2004)

Yeah... good ideas, all.


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2004)

That just might work...


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## BOZ (Apr 12, 2004)

cool, guys.    more on that later, when i have more time to think about it...


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## BOZ (Apr 19, 2004)

i'm toying with calling that ability "faerie formation", as in military formation.


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## Shade (Apr 19, 2004)

That's got a nice ring to it.  ​


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## BOZ (Apr 19, 2004)

here's a long-awaited starter stat block:

Flitterling
Fine Fey
Hit Dice: (¼?)d6 (1 hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 10 ft (2 squares), fly 20 ft (maneuverability?)
Armor Class: X (+8 size, +X Dex), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-X  (-16 for size, plus strength penalty)
Attack: Sword +X melee (X)
Full Attack: Sword +X melee (X)
Space/Reach: ½ ft/0 ft
Special Attacks: songs
Special Qualities: low-light vision, damage reduction 5/cold iron, mushrooms, dependent on mushrooms
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 12, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 28? 
Feats: Weapon Finesse?

Environment: Temperate forest?
Organization: 50-300
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Usually lawful neutral or good?
Advancement: ?
Level Adjustment: +X


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## BOZ (Apr 19, 2004)

AC9 said:
			
		

> A group of 50 flitterlings can create a song that has the same effect as a charm monster spell on one opponent. Additional groups of flitterlings can attempt to charm other creatures, but two groups cannot attempt to charm the same one. Flitterling groups are also able to create a song which has the same effect as a fear spell.  Both songs have a range of 60 feet and flitterlings are able to use each song once per day.





			
				DMR2 said:
			
		

> A group of 50 flitterlings can create a song that works like a charm monster spell on one opponent. Additional groups of flitterlings can attempt to charm other creatures, but two groups cannot attempt to charm the same one. Flitterling groups are also able to create a song which has the same effect as a cause fear spell.  Both songs have a range of 60 feet. Flitterlings are able to use each song once per day.




we can probably list these songs as two separate abilities, or we can make one ability that says they can choose one spell or the other.



> Flitterlings are so closely linked with their home that they will die in 1-6 days if any irreparable damage is done to it.




this can probably be merged with the dependency, below.



			
				AC9 said:
			
		

> Eating a mushroom has a magical effect according to its colour. The numbers of mushrooms in a typical ring and the effects of each colour are listed below:
> 
> No.	Colour Effects
> 5-8	Blue		- acts as a neutralise poison spell
> ...





			
				DMR2 said:
			
		

> Eating a mushroom has a magical effect according to its color. The numbers of mushrooms in a typical ring and the effects of each color are listed below:
> 
> No.	Color Effects
> 5-8	Blue		Acts as a neutralize poison spell
> ...




whoah, magic mushrooms dude!  



			
				AC9 said:
			
		

> The rings are vital to the flitterlings' existence and picking more than half of any particular kind kills the ring and causes the flitterlings to sicken and die in 1-6 days.





			
				DMR2 said:
			
		

> The rings are vital to the flitterlings' existence. Picking more than half of any particular kind kills the ring and causes the flitterlings to sicken and die in 1-6 days.




this could work something like the dryad’s tree dependency.


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## BOZ (Apr 20, 2004)

thoughts?


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## Shade (Apr 21, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> we can probably list these songs as two separate abilities, or we can make one ability that says they can choose one spell or the other.



I'd do them as separate abilities.  Perhaps bardic music can serve as a template? 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> this can probably be merged with the dependency, below.



Agreed. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> whoah, magic mushrooms dude!



Trippy!  This looks pretty easy, as none of these spells are obsolete in 3E (for a change).  Just change "1 turn" to 10 rounds, and we should be good to go.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> this could work something like the dryad’s tree dependency.



Good idea!


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## BOZ (Apr 21, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'd do them as separate abilities. Perhaps bardic music can serve as a template?




Maybe so, but I’m not sure how to implement it.  Here are some starting points:

Charm Song (Su): Once per day, a group of 50 or more flitterlings can sing a song that has the effect of a charm monster spell (save DC X) on one creature within 60 feet.  Additional groups of 50 may attempt to use this song on other creatures, but two groups may not use the song on the same creature simultaneously.  This is a sonic, mind-affecting effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

Fear Song (Su): Once per day, a group of 50 or more flitterlings can sing a song that has the effect of a cause fear spell (save DC X) within 60 feet.  Additional groups of 50 may attempt to use this song on other creatures, but two groups may not use the song on the same creature simultaneously.  This is a sonic, mind-affecting effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.



> Trippy! This looks pretty easy, as none of these spells are obsolete in 3E (for a change). Just change "1 turn" to 10 rounds, and we should be good to go.




how bout:

Magic Mushrooms: The mushrooms grown by flitterlings cause various magical effects when consumed, as determined by the color of the mushroom, as follows.  Each ring typically has 1d4+4 blue mushrooms (neutralize poison), 1d4+4 red mushrooms (haste, duration 1 minute), 1d4+2 yellow mushrooms (clairvoyance/clairaudience, duration 1 minute), 1d6+6 green mushrooms (cure light wounds, caster level X), and (how the hell does 40-60 break down into dice?) orange mushrooms (goodberries???). The ring of mushrooms is killed if more than half of any one kind of mushroom is picked before they regrow.

Mushroom Dependent? (Su): Each flitterling is mystically bound to its home and the ring of mushrooms that surrounds it.  If the ring of mushrooms is killed, or if any irreparable damage is done to the home, every flitterling linked to it will sicken and die within 1d6 days.  A flitterling’s home does not radiate magic, but the mushrooms do.


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Maybe so, but I’m not sure how to implement it. Here are some starting points:
> 
> Charm Song (Su): Once per day, a group of 50 or more flitterlings can sing a song that has the effect of a charm monster spell (save DC X) on one creature within 60 feet. Additional groups of 50 may attempt to use this song on other creatures, but two groups may not use the song on the same creature simultaneously. This is a sonic, mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.
> 
> Fear Song (Su): Once per day, a group of 50 or more flitterlings can sing a song that has the effect of a cause fear spell (save DC X) within 60 feet. Additional groups of 50 may attempt to use this song on other creatures, but two groups may not use the song on the same creature simultaneously. This is a sonic, mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.



Actually, that should cover it well. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Magic Mushrooms: The mushrooms grown by flitterlings cause various magical effects when consumed, as determined by the color of the mushroom, as follows. Each ring typically has 1d4+4 blue mushrooms (neutralize poison), 1d4+4 red mushrooms (haste, duration 1 minute), 1d4+2 yellow mushrooms (clairvoyance/clairaudience, duration 1 minute), 1d6+6 green mushrooms (cure light wounds, caster level X), and (how the hell does 40-60 break down into dice?) orange mushrooms (goodberries???). The ring of mushrooms is killed if more than half of any one kind of mushroom is picked before they regrow.



40-60 is tough to determine.   You could use [(1d3+3) x10], but that doesn't account for numbers other than 40, 50, or 60.   You could also use 1d20+39, or, more elegantly, 1d20+40 and be only one off from the original range.

orange mushroom = goodberries is a great idea!



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Mushroom Dependent? (Su): Each flitterling is mystically bound to its home and the ring of mushrooms that surrounds it. If the ring of mushrooms is killed, or if any irreparable damage is done to the home, every flitterling linked to it will sicken and die within 1d6 days. A flitterling’s home does not radiate magic, but the mushrooms do.



Looks good.  That name is fine.


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## BOZ (Apr 23, 2004)

Screw it; 1d20+40 sounds the best to me.  Who cares if it is 41-60 instead of 40-60.  

Do those song attacks look good compared to other group-oriented attacks?  Not unwieldy or leave too many gaps?


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2004)

They aren't unwieldy, and I think they cover what needs covering, except that they probably need a caster level.

If somebody really wants exactly 40 mushrooms, they can just declare that they want 40 mushrooms.  Call it "rule 40".


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## BOZ (Apr 24, 2004)

ok, posting...


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## Shade (Apr 26, 2004)

"Downsizing" the size Tiny grig to diminutive gives us ability scores as follows.

Grig:  Str 5, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 14

-2 Str, +4 Dex

Str 3, Dex 22, Con 13, Int 12, Wis X, Cha X

A nixie has similar Intelligence, so we could borrow its mental ability scores (Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 18).

Giving us a final stat block of Str 3, Dex 22, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 18.

Whaddya think?


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## BOZ (Apr 26, 2004)

Sounds about right on the mental stats.

The physical stats… we are going with Fine, since each flitterling is, according to the source, “about one-quarter of an inch tall,” which of course is very very teensy.    maybe each fey is as big as one of these letters.


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## Shade (Apr 26, 2004)

Oops!  I meant to say fine, not diminutive, as the adjustments I listed were for taking 'em down two size categories.

If they are the size of letters, then we should give 'em an organization line of:

Solitary, word (2-8), sentence (2-12 words), or alphabet (26).


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## BOZ (Apr 26, 2004)

ah, i see your strategy now.


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## BOZ (Apr 27, 2004)

Updating...


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## BOZ (Apr 27, 2004)

comments?


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## Filby (Apr 27, 2004)

Looks pretty good to me.


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2004)

I'd suggest perfect maneuverability.

A shortsword for a Fine creature would do 1 point of damage.  A longsword for a Fine creature would deal 1d2 points of damage.

The attack bonus would be +0 BAB +8 size -4 Str, giving +4 total.  If we gave them Weapon Finesse (which would limit them to shortsword), it would be +0 BAB +8 size +6 Dex, giving +14 total.


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## BOZ (Apr 28, 2004)

I’m thinking that perhaps since the original damage was “1 or 2” the longsword would be the better choice.  Thinking about it more, weapon finesse should be unnecessary.  They are supposed to be completely ineffective combatants as individuals, so a +4 attack bonus with 1d2-4 damage is a-OK.  When they attack as a group, they will have a higher BAB and Str score (so I say), so at that point they will not only hit better but do more damage.

So, attack and full attack lines should read:
Longsword +4 melee (1d2-4)


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2004)

Yeah, that is more true to the original.  Good call!


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## BOZ (Apr 28, 2004)

wish i had more time to spend today, but i'm going home early.  here are some things to think about if you get a chance:

Skills: 28? (Perform-sing, Hide +16 for size)

and they need a feat, too.


Faerie Formation (Ex): Flitterlings can form into a group of 5 that is able to attack a single target as if it was a single creature.  Such a grouping of flitterlings has a BAB of +2, an AC of X, a Str score of X, and otherwise has the same statistics as an individual flitterling.  For every point of damage done to this group of flitterlings, one flitterling is killed (maximum of 5 per group hit).  Such a group cannot consist of more or less than 5 flitterlings, and if any are killed or leave the group breaks up.  Forming a group is a standard action.


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2004)

Skills:  Escape Artist 4, Hide 4, Knowledge (nature) 4, Listen 2, Move Silently 4, Perform (sing) 4, Sense Motive 4, Spot 2

Feat:  Either Dodge, Agile, or Skill Focus (Perform [sing])

For Faerie Formation, I wouldn't increase Strength.  Most swarms have a Strength of 1.   Instead, I'd give them a morale bonus of +5 on attack rolls (borrowed from the Swarmfighting feat in Complete Warrior) and a +5 competence bonus to AC.  Maybe also state that they cannot be flanked (since they've "got each others' backs")?


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## BOZ (Apr 29, 2004)

They probably don’t even need ranks in Hide – with just the size and Dex bonuses, they already have a +22 modifier.  



> For Faerie Formation, I wouldn't increase Strength. Most swarms have a Strength of 1. Instead, I'd give them a morale bonus of +5 on attack rolls (borrowed from the Swarmfighting feat in Complete Warrior) and a +5 competence bonus to AC. Maybe also state that they cannot be flanked (since they've "got each others' backs")?




Ahh… I don’t have Complete Warrior yet!  What else does Swarmfighting give characters?

I do still support the BAB increase though, and if we’re not increasing Str then there should be some sort of damage bonus (maybe just enough to negate the Str penalty).


----------



## Shade (Apr 29, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> They probably don’t even need ranks in Hide – with just the size and Dex bonuses, they already have a +22 modifier.



Wow!  Yeah, I'd have to agree.  Put the remainder in Spot and Listen.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Ahh… I don’t have Complete Warrior yet! What else does Swarmfighting give characters?



Basically, +1 morale bonus to attacks for every ally with the feat that threatens the same creature, to a maximum bonus equal to Dex modifier.  That's all.  It was also in Dragon 285.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I do still support the BAB increase though, and if we’re not increasing Str then there should be some sort of damage bonus (maybe just enough to negate the Str penalty).



Just out of curiosity, why BAB increase instead of just a bonus to attack rolls?  They won't get an iterative attack and don't use Power Attack or Combat Expertise.

A damage bonus would be cool.  It would seem more appropriate than gaining Strength.


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## BOZ (Apr 29, 2004)

ok, maybe you're right.  i guess a +5 morale bonus to AC, attacks, and damage does make them quite a bit more impressive (at least, against lower level foes) than when fighting alone.


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2004)

Yeah, it's like having a +5 weapon and +5 armor, only it stacks with those!


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## BOZ (Apr 29, 2004)

ergo,

Faerie Formation (Ex): Flitterlings can form into a group of 5 that is able to attack a single target as if it was a single creature.  Such a grouping of flitterlings makes a single attack roll per round, and gains a +5 competence bonus to armor class and a +5 morale bonus to attack and damage rolls, and otherwise has the same statistics as an individual flitterling.  A formation of flitterlings cannot be flanked and is not subject to critical hits.  For every point of damage done to this group of flitterlings, one flitterling is killed (maximum of 5 per group hit).  Such a group cannot consist of more or less than 5 flitterlings, and if any are killed or leave the group breaks up.  Forming a group is a standard action.


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2004)

Excellent!


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## BOZ (Apr 29, 2004)

yes, i do find that one much more satisfactory.  

ok, let's see if we can finish this one up today, and collect another 10 to post to the CC!  

updating...


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2004)

Should magic mushrooms be listed on SQ line?

Perform (sing) should be +11, thanks to Skill Focus, right?

Temperate forests is good.

For organization, how about "battalion" to go along with "faerie formation"?

CR 1/2?  Their damage reduction alone should warrant at least that much.

"Weighs less than 1 pound" sounds fine.

Flitterlings speak Sylvan in nearly inaudible voices. Some also speak Common.

DC 14 for charm song and fear song  is correct.

Caster level 5 for green mushrooms?

LA +2 for fly speed and good or better maneuverability, -1 for size, roughly +1 for other abilities, for a total of +2.


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## BOZ (Apr 30, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Should magic mushrooms be listed on SQ line?




i don't know; what do we usually do for special gear, magic items, and other such things outside of the body?



> Perform (sing) should be +11, thanks to Skill Focus, right?




d'oh, forgot...



> Temperate forests is good.




no, temperate forests _are_ good.  



> For organization, how about "battalion" to go along with "faerie formation"?




hmm, i didn't mean for them to seem so military! these guys are basically like flying smurfs.  



> CR 1/2?  Their damage reduction alone should warrant at least that much.




that might be a bit high.  that's suggesting that one of these could take on a goblin or a skeleton.



> "Weighs less than 1 pound" sounds fine.




is there are precedent for listing the weight of creatures so small?  if not, i may as well just leave the weight off.



> Flitterlings speak Sylvan in nearly inaudible voices. Some also speak Common.




i like it!  



> DC 14 for charm song and fear song  is correct.




good deal!



> Caster level 5 for green mushrooms?




sounds as good as any.    any higher would be irrelevant anyway, right?



> LA +2 for fly speed and good or better maneuverability, -1 for size, roughly +1 for other abilities, for a total of +2.




okely-dokely!


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i don't know; what do we usually do for special gear, magic items, and other such things outside of the body?



Leave 'em off the SQ line and list them at the end.     So I guess that's fine as-is. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> no, temperate forests _are_ good.



And they taste great! 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> hmm, i didn't mean for them to seem so military! these guys are basically like flying smurfs.



What organization did the smurfs congregate in?  How about "patch", like the mushrooms they so love?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> that might be a bit high. that's suggesting that one of these could take on a goblin or a skeleton.



They could take 'em.  A skeleton or goblin would have to roll a natural 20 to hit one of these guys, and can barely beat damage reduction on a lucky roll, whereas a lone flittering could hit a goblin or skeleton 50% of the time and could drop 'em in 5 or 6 hits.   And that's not even counting faerie formation...



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> is there are precedent for listing the weight of creatures so small? if not, i may as well just leave the weight off.



I thought there was, but I can't find it now.  I don't think its too much of a stretch to go from "A grig stands 1-1/2 feet tall and weighs about 1 pound." to "A flitterling is only ¼ inch tall, and weighs less than 1 pound."  I'd hate to leave it off, and have some crazy DM think each one weighed a pound, and then some low-Strength necromancer would need a bag of holding to carry all those smurf corpses back to his lab.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> sounds as good as any.  any higher would be irrelevant anyway, right?



Right!


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## Filby (Apr 30, 2004)

*la la la-la la lah, la la-la la lah...*



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I thought there was, but I can't find it now.  I don't think its too much of a stretch to go from "A grig stands 1-1/2 feet tall and weighs about 1 pound." to "A flitterling is only ¼ inch tall, and weighs less than 1 pound."  I'd hate to leave it off, and have some crazy DM think each one weighed a pound, and then some low-Strength necromancer would need a bag of holding to carry all those smurf corpses back to his lab.




Heh heh!

Anyway... looking really great. I'd love to use these little guys if I get the chance.


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## BOZ (Apr 30, 2004)

> What organization did the smurfs congregate in? How about "patch", like the mushrooms they so love?




LOL  that’s so funny, I might just have to keep it.  



> They could take 'em. A skeleton or goblin would have to roll a natural 20 to hit one of these guys, and can barely beat damage reduction on a lucky roll, whereas a lone flittering could hit a goblin or skeleton 50% of the time and could drop 'em in 5 or 6 hits. And that's not even counting faerie formation...




LOL – OK, you win.  



> I thought there was, but I can't find it now. I don't think its too much of a stretch to go from "A grig stands 1-1/2 feet tall and weighs about 1 pound." to "A flitterling is only ¼ inch tall, and weighs less than 1 pound." I'd hate to leave it off, and have some crazy DM think each one weighed a pound, and then some low-Strength necromancer would need a bag of holding to carry all those smurf corpses back to his lab.




heheh… my fault for making the analogy.    yeah, I guess we can go with “less than 1 pound” and just let the DM decide when/if the issue comes up.  I can’t imagine them weighing more than 1 ounce even, at that height.

How about:

Alignment: Usually (lawful neutral or lawful good)?
OD&D of course did not have the “moral compass” part of alignment, and lists these guys as Lawful.  I’m going to assume that they would not be evil, but judging from the description we have does LN or LG make more sense?


----------



## Shade (Apr 30, 2004)

This...



> Flitterlings are a kindly faerie people that tend patches of magical mushrooms.



and this...



> Characters that befriend a group of flitterlings will be allowed to pick some of the mushrooms, as needed.



and this...



> Flitterlings only fight in self-defense against enemies who would destroy them or their mushrooms.



...make me want to go with "Usually lawful good".


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## BOZ (Apr 30, 2004)

Yeah, I think you’re right about that.  LG it is!

OK, I meant to finish them off yesterday, but busy is busy and I didn’t have the time.

So… updating – how are they?


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2004)

It looks good, and complete.  What's next?


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## BOZ (Apr 30, 2004)

don't know!  requests?

but i do know that we now have 10 more to add to the CC... this weekend!


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2004)

Well, I'd like nothing more than to tackle the draeden. Of course, since its HD range from 101-200, it will probably have to wait for an opening in the epic thread.  

The tonals would be cool, but may once again need to be epic.

Man, all the cool stuff is epic! :\

The death demon or magen from X2 could be fun.

Wow!   While I was going through the Savage Coast MC, I found the krolli in there!   I need to look at that MC more often.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 30, 2004)

i'm not very familiar with either of those, so i'd have to do some research.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2004)

Ooh!  I just stumbled across the malfera in the Savage Coast MC, and it sounds cool.  



> A malfera has a large, elephantlike face and a short prehensile trunk, flanked by large fangs. Its head is topped by large crescent-shaped ivory horns. The chest is a mass of slimy, short tentacles resembling tube worms, and its long, muscular arms end in large, jagged pincers. Its black skin is wrinkled and leathery, much like the skin of an elephant, and it has a prominent weblike network of red veins running all over its skin. Its eyes glow a deep crimson.


----------



## GreyShadow (May 1, 2004)

Is there a pic to go along with that description?


----------



## Filby (May 1, 2004)

GreyShadow said:
			
		

> Is there a pic to go along with that description?




Right here.

Freakay!

For my part, I'd like to put in a good word for the faerie, also from AC9... though I wouldn't be surprised if you're tired of dealing with fey, which is pretty understandable, considering how many have been converted lately.


----------



## BOZ (May 1, 2004)

yikes!  that is a freaky bastard.  

well, i still don't know what i want to do with this thread next.  i'll decide sometime next week.  i'm sure there is something i'd like to work on.  please, sorry shade, but i need some lower-level dudes for now.


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## Shade (May 2, 2004)

Don't worry...the malfera is nowhere near epic.   

I keep pushing for high-level creatures for several reasons.  First and foremost, there is a massive glut of low-level creatures in most of the monster books.  Open any of the monster books and flip to "monsters by CR", and you'll find very few things of CR 15 and up.   I think there are more CR 1 humanoids than *all* CR 15+ monsters combined!

Secondly, most of the PCs in my own campaign just hit level 21, so I actually need those critters.   

And finally, I think the high-power critters with multiple abilities are just more fun to work on.   

But its cool if you don't wanna do 'em.  Just please, please...cut back on the humanoids and monstrous humanoids, too!


----------



## BOZ (May 3, 2004)

well, we'll see... i think both lower level and higher level monsters are equally valid.  lower-level are more useful overall IMO, because they can be advanced.  i also have to say, that if your world were overpopulated with higher-level monsters then lower-level PCs wouldn't last long.  

anyway, as unfamiliar as i am with mystara, i'll spend some time looking through what resources i do have to see what is most interesting at the moment.


----------



## Shade (May 3, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> well, we'll see... i think both lower level and higher level monsters are equally valid. lower-level are more useful overall IMO, because they can be advanced. i also have to say, that if your world were overpopulated with higher-level monsters then lower-level PCs wouldn't last long.



I don't fight their validity, just their quantity.      I've seen the same sentiments echoed by other posters and reviews recently, such as here:

http://p082.ezboard.com/fnecromancergamesfrm31.showMessageRange?topicID=679.topic&start=1&stop=20

And it's a heck of alot easier to advance a CR 15-19 critter to CR 20+ than a CR 1-10 creature.  I've been suffering through it enough recently to testify to that!   

True about high-level overpopulation.  That's why you take higher-level character to other planes.   

Of course, a typical campaign world couldn't suppport even a third of the humanoid races that are currently available.  Look how much _one_ humanoid race has destroyed our world!   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> anyway, as unfamiliar as i am with mystara, i'll spend some time looking through what resources i do have to see what is most interesting at the moment.



Fair enough.  If you're missing something and need the stats, I'd be happy to send 'em/post 'em if I've got 'em.


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Oct 8, 2004)

Hey BOZ, In this thread you asked me to drop you a reminder about updating the Chevall to 3.5. Okay I remember what book they are from: the Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix (product #2501) - page 18. If you'd like I can scan it, PDF it and email it to you.

frukathka[at]yahoo.com


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## BOZ (Oct 8, 2004)

OK, as i recall this is not the first request for the chevall.  when i have some time to get it ready, i will start on this one.


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Oct 8, 2004)

Thanks BOZ!


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## Mortis (Oct 8, 2004)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix (product #2501)




Of course, they showed up earlier than that in a few OD&D books, GAZ 1 - Grand Duchy of Karameikos being one of them.

Regards,
Mortis


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## BOZ (Oct 8, 2004)

so, for the chevall we have:
TSR 9149 - B10 - Night's Dark Terror (1986)
TSR 9173 - AC9 - Creature Catalogue (1986)
TSR 9193 - GAZ1 - The Grand Duchy of Karameikos (1987)
TSR 9438 - DMR2 - Creature Catalog (1993)
TSR 2501 - Monstrous Compendium - Mystara Appendix (1994)

any others?


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## Mortis (Oct 11, 2004)

THere's a 3.0 version of the Chevall here:

http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/html/chevall.html

Regards,
Mortis


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## BOZ (Oct 11, 2004)

thanks


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## BOZ (Nov 12, 2004)

Just to prove that I am a man of my word, it’s time to work on the Chevall.  

Before going forward, there is one very important thing we need to determine.  Is this a horse that can change into a centaur (Magical Beast) or a centaur that can change into a horse (Monstrous Humanoid)?


Module B10:

Chevall*
HORSE FORM* 	CENTAUR FORM
ARMOUR CLASS: 	2 			5
HIT DICE: 		7* 			7*
MOVE: 		270’ (90’) 		180’ (60’)
ATTACKS: 		2 hooves/1 bite 	2 hooves/1 weapon
DAMAGE: 		1d6/1d6/1d8 		1d6/1d6/by weapon
NO. APPEARING: 	(1-3)			0 (1-3)
SAVE AS: 		Fighter: 7 		Fighter: 7 
MORALE:		11 			9
TREASURE TYPE: 	C 			C
ALIGNMENT: 	Neutral 		Neutral 
XP VALUE: 		850  			850 

A chevall is a creature which can change at will between two forms: an intelligent horse, and a powerful centaur.

Chevalls concern themselves with striving for the good of all horses.  They often go about in horse form, checking on the welfare of horses in the service of humans, demi-humans and humanoids. If a chevall finds a horse which is unhappy with its lot (e.g. because of maltreatment or neglect) it will not rest until it has freed the animal. Chevalls hate wolves, and are the blood enemies of were-wolves.

Although animals such as dogs are wary of the scent of chevalls, horses have no fear of them.  In either of their two forms, chevalls can talk to and understand horses, using sounds which, to human ears, are nothing more than neighs and whinnies.  Using this whinnying language, a chevall can command any horse, wild or domesticated, to do its bidding.  Once per day, a chevall can magically summon 1d3 war horses which arrive in 1d4 rounds.

While in centaur form, chevalls usually arm themselves with wooden clubs or short bows. In this form, they can speak the languages of humans (common) and centaurs as well as being able to speak with horses.  In either of their two forms, chevalls may only be hit by silver or magical weapons.


AC9 Creature Catalouge:

Chevall*
Horse Form* 		Centaur Form
Armour Class: 	2 			5
Hit Dice: 		7* 			7*
Move: 			270’ (90’) 		180’ (60’)
Attacks: 		2 hooves/1 bite 	2 hooves/1 weapon
Damage: 		1d6/1d6/1d8 		1d6/1d6/by weapon
No. Appearing: 	0 (1-3)			0 (1-3)
Save As: 		F7 			F7 
Morale:		11 			9
Treasure Type: 	C 			C
Intelligence:		12			12
Alignment: 		Neutral 		Neutral 
XP Value: 		850  			850 

A chevall is a creature that can change at will between two forms: an intelligent horse, and a powerful centaur.

Chevalls concern themselves with striving for the good of all horses.  They often go about in horse form, checking on the welfare of horses in the service of humans, demi-humans and humanoids. If a chevall finds a horse which is unhappy with its lot (e.g. because of maltreatment or neglect) it will not rest until it has freed the animal. Chevalls hate wolves, and are the blood enemies of werewolves.

Although animals such as dogs are wary of the scent of chevalls, horses have no fear of them.  In either of their two forms, chevalls can talk to and understand horses, using sounds which, to human ears, are nothing more than neighs and whinnies.  Using this whinnying language, a chevall can command any horse, wild or domesticated, to do its bidding.  Once per day, a chevall can magically summon 1d3 war horses which arrive in 1d4 rounds.

While in centaur form, chevalls usually arm themselves with wooden clubs or short bows. In this form, they can speak the languages of humans (common) and centaurs as well as being able to speak with horses.  In either of their two forms, chevalls may only be hit by silver or magical weapons.


GAZ1 – Grand Duchy of Karameikos

Chevall*
Horse Form* 		Centaur Form
Armour Class: 	2 			5
Hit Dice: 		7* 			7*
Move: 			270’ (90’) 		180’ (60’)
Attacks: 		2 hooves/1 bite 	2 hooves/1 weapon
Damage: 		1d6/1d6/1d8 		1d6/1d6/by weapon
No. Appearing: 	(1-3)			0 (1-3)
Save As: 		Fighter: 7 		Fighter: 7 
Morale:		11 			9
Treasure Type: 	C 			C
Alignment: 		Neutral 		Neutral 
XP Value: 		850  			850 

The chevall was created by the Immortal Zirchev to be the protector of Horses in Traladaran lands.  The chevall can change at will between horse and centaur forms.

Chevalls travel around the country observing horses in the service of humans and freeing those who are mistreated. Chevalls are fierce enemies of wolves and werewolves.  They may speak with horses, in either horse or centaur form, and can magically summon 1d6 war horses (which arrive in 1d4 rounds) once per day.

Chevalls may only be hit by silver or magical weapons.



DMR2 – Creature Catalog

Chevall*
Horse Form* 	Centaur Form
Armor Class: 		2 			5
Hit Dice: 		7* (L)			7* (L)
Move: 			270’ (90’) 		180’ (60’)
Attacks: 		2 hooves/1 bite 	2 hooves/1 weapon
Damage: 		1d6/1d6/1d8 		1d6/1d6/by weapon
No. Appearing: 	0 (1-3)			0 (1-3)
Save As: 		Fighter: 7 		Fighter: 7 
Morale:		11 			9
Treasure Type: 	C 			C
Intelligence:		12			12
Alignment: 		Neutral 		Neutral 
XP Value: 		850  			850 

A chevall is a creature that can change at will between two forms: an intelligent horse, and a powerful centaur.

Chevalls hate wolves, and are the instinctive blood enemies of werewolves. Although animals such as dogs are wary of the scent of chevalls, horses have no fear of them at all.  

Chevalls concern themselves with striving for the good of all horses.  They often go about in horse form, checking on the welfare of horses in the service of humans, demi-humans and humanoids. If a chevall finds a horse which is unhappy with its lot (for example, because of maltreatment or neglect) it will not rest until it has freed the animal. 

In either of their two forms, chevalls can talk to and understand horses, using sounds which, to human ears, are nothing more than neighs and whinnies.  Using this whinnying language, a chevall can command any horse, wild or domesticated, to do its bidding.  Once per day, a chevall can magically summon 1d3 war horses which arrive in 1d4 rounds.

While in centaur form, chevalls usually arm themselves with wooden clubs or short bows. In this form, they can speak the languages of humans (Common) and centaurs, as well as being able to speak with horses.  In either of their two forms, chevalls may only be hit by silver or magical weapons.

Chevalls have a bit of a sweet tooth, and many particularly like apples and other fruits, sweet pastries, and sugary fruit muffins.

Terrain: Mountain, Open, Settled, Woods.

Load: 4,000 cn at normal speed or 8,00 cn at half speed.

Barding Multiplier: x1.


Mystara MC: 

Chevall
CLIMATE/TERRAIN:	Nonarctic plains, forests, mountains	
FREQUENCY:	Rare
ORGANIZATION:	Solitary	
ACTIVITY CYCLE:	Day
DIET:	Omnivore	
INTELLIGENCE:	Very (11 - 12)
TREASURE:	M, Q, (C)	
ALIGNMENT:	Neutral Good
NO. APPEARING:	1d3	
ARMOR CLASS:	2 (as horse) 5 (as centaur)
MOVEMENT:	24 (as horse) or 18 (as centaur)	
HIT DICE:	7
THAC0:	13	
NO. OF ATTACKS:	3
DAMAGE/ATTACK:	 1d6 (hoof)/ 1d6 (hoof)/ 1d8 (bite) or 1d6 (hoof)/ 1d6 (hoof)/ by weapon	
SPECIAL ATTACKS:	Summon and command Horses
SPECIAL DEFENCES:	Silver or +1 or better magical weapons to hit	
MAGIC RESISTANCE:	Nil
SIZE:	L (5' tall as horse, 7' - 8' tall as centaur)	
MORALE:	Elite (13) as centaur
XP VALUE:	650		

This sylvan creature can change at will between two forms: an intelligent horse and a powerful centaur.

As a horse, a chevall may be any color (though a given individual does not change shades). It is typically as large as a tight war horse. In centaur form, it has the upper torso and arms of a human being and the lower body of a horse. This form tends to be somewhat smaller than most centaurs, on average, and its ears, unlike those of a standard centaur, are pointed and elfin.

In either form, a chevall can talk to and understand horses, using sounds which, to human ears, are nothing more than neighs and whinnies. Using this whinnying language, a chevall can command any horse, wild or domesticated, to do its bidding. A paladin's warhorse, and other unusual mounts with average intelligence or higher, are immune.

In centaur form, a chevall can speak Common, the language of centaurs, and woodland sylvan tongue.

Combat: As a horse, a chevall can kick and hire as noted above. In centaur form, it also bites, but usually wields a wooden club or short bow instead of kicking. In either form, it can only be harmed by silver weapons or magical weapons of +1 or better enchantment.

Once per day, a chevall can magically summon 1d3 medium war horses, which arrive in 1d4 rounds.

Habitat/Society: Chevalls strive to ensure the well-being of all horses. Once native to the plains, they now appear anywhere that wild or captive horses exist. They often go about in horse form. checking on the welfare of horses in the service of humans, demihumans, and humanoids. If a chevall finds a horse that is unhappy with its lot (because of maltreatment or neglect), the cheval will not rest until it has freed the animal.

A chevall travels alone or in groups of up to three. If three chevalls are encountered, there is a 50% chance the group is a mated pair and a foal (which has half the Hit Dice and inflicts half the damage of adult specimens).

Foraging sustains chevalls as they travel. They favor vegetables and grains, and may (in horse form) gain nourishment from grazing (although they consider grass a very bland food, and prefer tasty oats and barley). While they arc omnivorous by nature, most chevalls adhere to a vegetarian diet. This may stem from moral conviction or sheer habit.

Chevalls may accumulate some treasure during their travels. They often trade this for food and goods, bargaining with centaurs and other friendly creatures.

Ecology: Although animals such as dogs are wary of the scent of chevalls, horses never fear them. Chevalls hate wolves and arc the blood enemies of werewolves. According to chevall lore, chevalls were created long ago by an Immortal who wished to protect horses mistreated by their human masters.

Chevall Speed Table
Movement	Horse form	Centaur form
Walk	12	9
Trot	24	18
Canter	36	27
Gallop	48	36

A chevall can carry no more than 260 pounds and still travel at its full speed. A can travel at half speed while carrying up to 390 pounds, and can move at one-third speed while carrying uip to 520 pounds.

As noted in the Player's Handbook (Chapter 14), in a day of travel over good terrain, a creature can travel a number of mites equal to twice its normal movement rate (a trot); that is, a chevall in horse form can cover 48 miles. In dire circumstances, a chevall can push itself to a canter or gallop. A canter can be safely maintained for two hours, or a gallop for one hour, but then the chevall must walk for an hour before increasing its speed again. A chevall will not gallop if loaded with enough material to reduce its normal movement rate by half: nor will it canter or gallop while carrying a load which will reduce its normal movement rate to one-third normal.


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## Filby (Nov 13, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Before going forward, there is one very important thing we need to determine.  Is this a horse that can change into a centaur (Magical Beast) or a centaur that can change into a horse (Monstrous Humanoid)?




Maybe it's a Fey?


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## Shade (Nov 13, 2004)

I'm inclined towards magical beast, since it seems that horse its its preferred form to travel in.   Filby's idea of fey sits better with me than monstrous humanoid.  Regardless of type, it will definitely need the shapechanger subtype.

Oh, and good news on the Mystaran monsters topic:   In "prison mail" in this month's Dungeon, Erik Mona reveals that they have asked for a "denizens of the Isle of Dread" companion piece for their recent revisit to the Isle, which includes the phanaton.   He also mentioned that a "Monsters of Mystara" article may appear in a future issue.


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## Knight Otu (Nov 13, 2004)

It pretty much sounds like the horse form is the natural one, so either Magical Beast (Shapechanger) or Fey (Shapechanger), though I'm more inclined to Magical Beast.


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## BOZ (Nov 13, 2004)

OK, so, 1 ½ votes for Fey, ½ vote for Magical Beast…  

As to that other news, that is very heartening.    and promising towards our goal of writing monster conversion articles!!


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, so, 1 ½ votes for Fey, ½ vote for Magical Beast…



Actually, more like 1 vote for fey, and 2 votes for magical beast, willing to go with fey as a second choice.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> As to that other news, that is very heartening.  and promising towards our goal of writing monster conversion articles!!



My thoughts exactly.  Erik Mona appears to be Dungeon and Dragon magazines' savior.


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Actually, more like 1 vote for fey, and 2 votes for magical beast, willing to go with fey as a second choice.




ack!  Otu snuck that in there while I was posting and I didn't notice it till now.   

OK, Magical Beast and Fey do seem like the two most logical types, with Shapechanger as a subtype.  In the original module, the illustration is in horse form, so with what has already been said I'm going with Magical Beast.    a stat block will follow soon. 



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> My thoughts exactly. Erik Mona appears to be Dungeon and Dragon magazines' savior.




methinks I am going to PM him about an idea I had.  More on this later when/if I get a response.


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## BOZ (Nov 15, 2004)

i gave it some more thought... fey is actually better than magical beast.  look at which sorts of creatures are in which category - the chevall is more like other fey than other magical beasts.

some preliminary stats for the chevall:

*Chevall*
Horse Form
Large Fey (Shapechanger)
Hit Dice: 7d6+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 60 ft (12 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (-1 size, +X Dex), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+X
Attack: Hoof +X melee (1d6+X)
Full Attack: 2 hooves +X melee (1d6+X) and bite +X melee (1d8+X)
Space/Reach: 10 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: summon and command horses
Special Qualities: alternate form, damage reduction X/magic or silver, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 12, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 70
Feats: 3

Centaur Form
Large Fey (Shapechanger)
Hit Dice: 7d6+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 50 ft (10 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +X Dex), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+X
Attack: Hoof +X melee (1d6+X) or short bow +X ranged (X+X)
Full Attack: 2 hooves +X melee (1d6+X) and club +X melee (X+X) or short bow +X ranged (X+X)
Space/Reach: 10 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: summon and command horses
Special Qualities: alternate form, damage reduction X/magic or silver, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 12, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 70
Feats: 3

Environment: Temperate and warm plains, forest, and mountains
Organization: Solitary or family (2-3)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually neutral good
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +X

A chevall can speak Common and Sylvan.


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2004)

That's cool.  But if it's a fey, shouldn't its damage reduction be x/cold iron?


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## BOZ (Nov 15, 2004)

fey DR isn’t an inherent part of the type, and I don’t think all fey have it.  We could switch it, but I was keeping things consistent to the original listing of silver or +1.


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## Knight Otu (Nov 15, 2004)

I believe all fey with DR have a DR of x/cold iron (and possibly other components).


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## BOZ (Nov 15, 2004)

so, despite the original content, would you all feel more comfortable with "DR/magic or cold iron"?


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2004)

Yes indeed, especially since cold iron wasn't really an option pre-3E, and most critters either had silver or magic weapons required to hit, if they possessed such an ability.


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## Knight Otu (Nov 15, 2004)

I'm with Shade on this. Monsters created prior to 3.5 that had some kind of damage immunity were not written with with 3.5 damage resistance in mind, IYKWIMAITYD.


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2004)

Okie dokie, fair enough.    magic or cold iron it is.

On to more interesting topics…

Since we’ve decided that the horse is the natural form, how about this:
Change Shape (Su): A chevall’s natural form is that of a horse.  In this form, a chevall may be of any color (though each individual cannot change its color), and is about the size of a (light war horse?).
A chevall also assume the form of a centaur; a chevall in its centaur form always assumes the same appearance and traits, much like a lycanthrope would.  A chevall’s centaur form has the upper torso of a human, as with normal centaurs, and its lower body is the same as in its horse form, though somewhat smaller than the average centaur’s.  the centaur form’s ears are pointed like an elf’s.
A chevall remains in one form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, nor does the chevall revert to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell, however, reveals its natural form if it is in centaur form.


In either of their two forms, chevalls can talk to and understand horses, using sounds which, to human ears, are nothing more than neighs and whinnies.  Using this whinnying language, a chevall can command any horse, wild or domesticated, to do its bidding.  

Once per day, a chevall can magically summon 1d3 war horses which arrive in 1d4 rounds.

(slightly different in GAZ1: “They may speak with horses, in either horse or centaur form, and can magically summon 1d6 war horses (which arrive in 1d4 rounds) once per day.”

not sure how much, if any, of this part from the Mystara MC we can or should use:

Chevall Speed Table
Movement - 	Horse form - 	Centaur form
Walk -	12 -	9
Trot -	24 -	18
Canter -	36 -	27
Gallop -	48 -	36

A chevall can carry no more than 260 pounds and still travel at its full speed. A can travel at half speed while carrying up to 390 pounds, and can move at one-third speed while carrying up to 520 pounds.

As noted in the Player's Handbook (Chapter 14), in a day of travel over good terrain, a creature can travel a number of miles equal to twice its normal movement rate (a trot); that is, a chevall in horse form can cover 48 miles. In dire circumstances, a chevall can push itself to a canter or gallop. A canter can be safely maintained for two hours, or a gallop for one hour, but then the chevall must walk for an hour before increasing its speed again. A chevall will not gallop if loaded with enough material to reduce its normal movement rate by half: nor will it canter or gallop while carrying a load which will reduce its normal movement rate to one-third normal.


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2004)

*Summon Equines (Sp):* Once per day a chevall can automatically summon 1d3 light war horses or 1 heavy war horse. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell.I don't think we need to include the speed business from the end.  The only creatures that I am aware of that include such information are the main dragon entries, which include overland flight tables.


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## BOZ (Nov 19, 2004)

Cool  

Did you like my change shape?

“In either of their two forms, chevalls can talk to and understand horses, using sounds which, to human ears, are nothing more than neighs and whinnies.  Using this whinnying language, a chevall can command any horse, wild or domesticated, to do its bidding.”

Do we have something for commanding animals, besides charm spells (which this is more like a mind-affecting compulsion than a charm)?  I’d say a paladin’s mount would be immune to this effect.  No saving throw needed.


Is this stuff automatically covered under movement rules now?

A chevall can carry no more than 260 pounds and still travel at its full speed. A can travel at half speed while carrying up to 390 pounds, and can move at one-third speed while carrying up to 520 pounds.

As noted in the Player's Handbook (Chapter 14), in a day of travel over good terrain, a creature can travel a number of miles equal to twice its normal movement rate (a trot); that is, a chevall in horse form can cover 48 miles. In dire circumstances, a chevall can push itself to a canter or gallop. A canter can be safely maintained for two hours, or a gallop for one hour, but then the chevall must walk for an hour before increasing its speed again. A chevall will not gallop if loaded with enough material to reduce its normal movement rate by half: nor will it canter or gallop while carrying a load which will reduce its normal movement rate to one-third normal.


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Did you like my change shape?



Yes indeed. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> “In either of their two forms, chevalls can talk to and understand horses, using sounds which, to human ears, are nothing more than neighs and whinnies. Using this whinnying language, a chevall can command any horse, wild or domesticated, to do its bidding.”
> 
> Do we have something for commanding animals, besides charm spells (which this is more like a mind-affecting compulsion than a charm)? I’d say a paladin’s mount would be immune to this effect. No saving throw needed.



Well, there are these:

_Lycanthropic Empathy (Ex):_ In any form, lycanthropes can communicate and empathize with normal or dire animals of their animal form. This gives them a +4 racial bonus on checks when influencing the animal’s attitude and allows the communication of simple concepts and (if the animal is friendly) commands, such as "friend," "foe," "flee," and "attack."

_Domesticate Animal (Su):_ Jackal lords can use _dominate animal_ (canines only) at will (DC 16, caster level 16th).

And this might work better for the "summoning" horses ability:

_Children of the Night (Su):_ Vampires command the lesser creatures of the world and once per day can call forth 1d6+1 rat swarms, 1d4+1 bat swarms, or a pack of 3d6 wolves as a standard action. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might summon other creatures of similar power.) These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve the vampire for up to 1 hour.




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Is this stuff automatically covered under movement rules now?
> 
> A chevall can carry no more than 260 pounds and still travel at its full speed. A can travel at half speed while carrying up to 390 pounds, and can move at one-third speed while carrying up to 520 pounds.
> 
> As noted in the Player's Handbook (Chapter 14), in a day of travel over good terrain, a creature can travel a number of miles equal to twice its normal movement rate (a trot); that is, a chevall in horse form can cover 48 miles. In dire circumstances, a chevall can push itself to a canter or gallop. A canter can be safely maintained for two hours, or a gallop for one hour, but then the chevall must walk for an hour before increasing its speed again. A chevall will not gallop if loaded with enough material to reduce its normal movement rate by half: nor will it canter or gallop while carrying a load which will reduce its normal movement rate to one-third normal.



Essentially, yes.  We can definitely include the carrying capacity entry like many monsters have.


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## BOZ (Nov 20, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Well, there are these:
> 
> Lycanthropic Empathy (Ex): In any form, lycanthropes can communicate and empathize with normal or dire animals of their animal form. This gives them a +4 racial bonus on checks when influencing the animal’s attitude and allows the communication of simple concepts and (if the animal is friendly) commands, such as "friend," "foe," "flee," and "attack."
> 
> Domesticate Animal (Su): Jackal lords can use dominate animal (canines only) at will (DC 16, caster level 16th).




duh, yes, it should work like lycanthropes.  of course, the text doesn't really state explicitly whether the horse has to obey the chevall.

Equine Empathy (Ex): In either form, a chevall can communicate and empathize with normal horses. This gives a chevall a +4 racial bonus on checks when influencing the animal’s attitude and allows the communication of simple concepts and (if the animal is friendly) commands, such as "friend," "foe," "flee," and "attack."  A paladin’s mount cannot be affected by the effect.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> And this might work better for the "summoning" horses ability:
> 
> Children of the Night (Su): Vampires command the lesser creatures of the world and once per day can call forth 1d6+1 rat swarms, 1d4+1 bat swarms, or a pack of 3d6 wolves as a standard action. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might summon other creatures of similar power.) These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve the vampire for up to 1 hour.




yes, that does work a bit better!

Summon Equines (Su): Once per day a chevall can summon 1d3 light warhorses or 1 heavy warhorse as a standard action. The horses arrive in 1d4 rounds.  This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Essentially, yes. We can definitely include the carrying capacity entry like many monsters have.




yes, that’s what I was wondering.  OK, for now, I will put a note for myself in there, and we can worry about that later.


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2004)

Lookin' good.


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## BOZ (Nov 22, 2004)

posting in homebrews...


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## Knight Otu (Nov 22, 2004)

Shouldn't both horse form and centaur form use pretty much the same special abilities?


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## Shade (Nov 22, 2004)

Good point.

Jotting down some notes for when we do skills:

+12 Jump bonus due to speed
-4 Hide penalty due to size

*When using its change shape ability, a chevall gets an additional +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks.


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## BOZ (Nov 22, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Shouldn't both horse form and centaur form use pretty much the same special abilities?




Well, they would, if I had been editing both stat blocks at the same time, instead of just the one.  

Speaking of stat blocks, how about setting up some ability scores…

Centaur: Str 18, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 11

Light Warhorse: Str 16, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6

The chevall will definitely have the same Int (12), Wis, and Cha (14+?) in both forms.  Since they are both large creatures of about the same size, is it necessary to have the other ability scores the same or change per form?  Note that they are smaller than centaurs.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Jotting down some notes for when we do skills:
> 
> +12 Jump bonus due to speed
> -4 Hide penalty due to size
> ...




cool.


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## Shade (Nov 22, 2004)

No need to have the stats change between forms.  I'd go with...

Light Warhorse: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 15.

I see them as weaker but more agile than centaurs.


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## BOZ (Nov 22, 2004)

so do i.  

these guys are coming along pretty quickly.


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## Knight Otu (Nov 22, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> +12 Jump bonus due to speed



 +8 in Centaur form only, though.

 Those stats seem reasonable.


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## BOZ (Nov 22, 2004)

right about the jump.

Skills: 70 (Disguise, Handle Animal, Listen, Search, Spot, Survival)
Feats: 3 (Alertness, Track?, Mounted Combat feats, possibly as bonus?)


----------



## Shade (Nov 22, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> +8 in Centaur form only, though.



Good catch!

Skills: Disguise 10, Handle Animal 10, Knowledge (nature) 5, Listen 10, Move Silently 5, Search 10, Spot 10, Survival 10
Feats: Alertness, Point Blank Shot, Track

It shouldn't need the mounted combat feats, since it _is_ the mount, right?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 22, 2004)

I’m going to lower the disguise ranks… it doesn’t need that many if it has that +10 bonus when changing forms, IMO.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> It shouldn't need the mounted combat feats, since it is the mount, right?




No idea.  

I’ll come up with the flavor text for this guy soon.  updating in homebrews, in the meantime.


----------



## Shade (Nov 22, 2004)

Fair enough.

Here's my calculations for carrying capacity:

Str 16 
Light load 76 lb. or less 
Medium load 77-153 lb. 
Heavy load 154-230 lb. 
Drag:  5 x max load

Large quadruped x3

Thus...

Carrying Capacity: A light load for a chevall is up to 228 pounds; a medium load, 229-459 pounds; and a heavy load, 459-690 pounds. A chevall can drag 3,450 pounds.


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## BOZ (Nov 22, 2004)

I wonder why it’s slightly different from a light warhorse?  Since they’re both Large quadrupeds with a Str of 16, I would have expected them to be the same…


----------



## Knight Otu (Nov 22, 2004)

I think it's because Shade multiplied the numbers for each load category by three, while the official version multiplies the heavy load with 3, and takes 1/3 and 2/3 of the heavy load as light and medium load. That results in slightly different load categories.


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## Shade (Nov 22, 2004)

It looks like they rounded up to the nearest 10 for the light warhorse.   If I'd noticed that they had the same size and Str, I wouldn't have bothered doing the calculations.  Now I'm kinda glad that I did.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 23, 2004)

which version would you like to keep?


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## Shade (Nov 23, 2004)

Unless I'm mistaken, I followed the rules better than they did.


----------



## Knight Otu (Nov 23, 2004)

Actually, you just missed the fractions.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 23, 2004)

_This horse is clearly different from most animals, though it is hard to say exactly why.  There appears to be a faint sparkle of intelligence in its eyes._

The chevall is a magical equine creature that has the ability to assume the form of a centaur.  These beings roam about in horse form, checking on the welfare of horses in the service of humans, to make sure the beasts are treated well.  If a chevall finds such an animal that has been neglected or suffered maltreatment, it will do everything in its power to free the animal.

The chevall race was created by an Immortal being named Zirchev, of the Known World of Mystara.  He created the chevall to be the protector of horses in the land of Traladar, and thus they are concerned with the welfare of all equines.  They were originally native to the plains, but now appear anywhere that wild or captive horses can be found.

Dogs are wary of the scent of a chevall in horse form, but horses never fear a chevall.  They hate wolves, and are the instinctive blood enemies of werewolves.

Chevalls forage as they travel, and favor vegetables and grains.  They also have a bit of a sweet tooth, and like fruits (particularly apples), sweet pastries, and the like.  They are not vegetarians by nature, but prefer not to eat meat by choice.  Chevalls will trade any treasure they acquire for food or other goods, and will bargain with centaurs, fey, elves, and other friendly creatures.

A chevall can speak Common and Sylvan while in centaur form.  In either form, a chevall can speak to and understand horses, in a language that sounds nothing more than neighs and whinnies to a humanoid.

COMBAT
A chevall in centaur form is usually armed with a wooden club and short bow.  While in horse form, it resorts to kicking and biting.  A chevall is not aggressive, but will defend itself and any horses, and may resort to violence against a foe of its charges where there is no other recourse.


----------



## Shade (Nov 23, 2004)

Looking at other recent creatures with carrying capacities, it appears that rounding up is the norm.   So don't go with my results after all.  

The description looks good.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 24, 2004)

Easier to go with the flow rather than fight the current?  

OK, updating in homebrews…


----------



## Shade (Nov 24, 2004)

You betcha.  I'm no salmon.  

It looks like all that's left is CR.

CR 5 or 6?  It's not as good as a nymph, which has 1 less HD and is CR 7.


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## BOZ (Nov 24, 2004)

I would give the chevall CR 5 – they are definitely tougher than centaurs, with better HD (though a worse die), and DR.

Speaking of DR – would 10/magic or cold iron be too much?  I don’t think so. 

There is also LA to consider.  Centaurs have +2 – would the DR be enough to bump it up to +3?


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2004)

CR 5 sounds good.

DR...I like it!

LA:  Damage reduction isn't normally worth a +1 (according to Savage Species), but combined with alternate form, I'd think +1 more than the centaur is reasonable.


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## BOZ (Nov 24, 2004)

cool... updating - how's it look now?  

i told you this one was coming along quickly!


----------



## Knight Otu (Nov 24, 2004)

There are a few significant differences between this creature and a centaur, especially the extra hit dice, and the fact this is a fey creature instead of a monstrous humanoid, both of which more or less reduce the LA. A LA of +2 (ECL 9) might be ok.

 And every one knows salmons are epic critters.


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## BOZ (Nov 24, 2004)

i like the +3, but that puts the ECL at 10 which might be a bit too high.  +2 might be better?


----------



## Shade (Nov 25, 2004)

+2.  I'm convinced.  

Fear the paragon pseudonatural salmon!


----------



## BOZ (Nov 25, 2004)

okie dokie, consider me convinced too.     stick a fork in it?


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## Shade (Nov 25, 2004)

Much like the turkey, she's done.


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## Mortis (Mar 10, 2005)

*BUMP*

Plus conversion requests.

All taken from the Hollow World Boxed Set.

Flapsail
Somnastis Plant
Foot Pad Lizard

Thanks,
Mortis


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## BOZ (Mar 10, 2005)

thanks, i'll look into those.


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## BOZ (Mar 31, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> All taken from the Hollow World Boxed Set.
> 
> Somnastis Plant




your wish is granted.  


Somnastis Plant
Armor Class: 6
Hit Dice: 2*
Hit Points: 20
Move: 0’ (0’)
Attacks: 2 petal strikes
Damage: 1-3/1-3
Number Appearing: 1-6
Terrain: Isolated Forest Valleys
Save As: F1
Morale: 12
Treasure Type: K
Alignment: N
THAC0: 18
XP Value: 25

This plant, firmly rooted in place, looks like a large, closed pink rosebud, three yards across, sprouting right out of the ground, surrounded by a bed of its leaves.  It exudes a sweet aroma which induces drowsiness.
Its leaves, when chewed for an hour or so, make the user enter a sleepwalking state. He is aware of what is going on around him. He can answer questions put to him, but will not if they are not questions he would ordinarily answer (the Gentle Folk are so passive, of course, that they’ll never answer anything). He does not think and does not feel any emotion in this state. The state lasts 1-3 (1/2d6) days.
Someone forced to chew the leaves or take a drug based on them can make a saving throw vs. Poison in order to resist its effects. He gets a + 2 bonus to his roll. It’s fairly easy to resist; most Gentle Folk using the leaves voluntarily forfeit their saving throws, because they desire the leafs effects.
If a character under the leaf’s influence is attacked or confronts a situation where he definitely would like to break out of its effects, he must make an ordinary saving throw vs. Poison; success means he breaks out. He can only make one saving throw attempt per turn. 
The somnastis plant is carnivorous. It waits until its prey is lulled to sleep by its odor, and then opens the bud of its flower. Inside are tough tendrils which can reach up to 30’; they gently grasp the prey and lower it into the flower bud. After that, the prey takes damage at the rate of ld3 per round . . . but the damage is completely painless, anaesthetic, and a sleeping victim will feel nothing.
When a potential victim comes within 30’ of one of these plants, he will smell its bewitching, flowery fragrance. At that time, ro11 1d6. The is is the number of turns before the aroma gets to him. When the rolled number of turns is past, he must make a saving throw vs. Poisons or fall asleep. If he falls asleep, he will not awaken for an hour. If he make his saving throw,  the plant’s smell cannot again affect him until he goes out of its range and returns to smell it again.


some preliminary stats for the somnastis plant:

*Somnastis Plant* 
Large Plant
Hit Dice: 2d8+X (X hp) 
Initiative: +X
Speed: 0 ft
Armor Class: 14 (-1 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+X
Attack: Petal +X melee (1d3+X)
Full Attack: Petal +X melee (1d3+X)
Space/Reach: 10 ft/10 ft
Special Attacks: aroma, sleep
Special Qualities: plant traits
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X 
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int X, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: ?
Feats: ?

Environment: Any forest ?
Organization: Solitary or X (2-6)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: K?
Alignment: Always neutral ?
Advancement: 3-6 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: ---


COMBAT

Originally found in The Hollow World Campaign Set (1990, Aaron Allston).


----------



## Shade (Mar 31, 2005)

Reducing the yellow musk creeper's ability scores down to size Large yields:

Str 2, Dex 18, Con 17, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 9.

I think most of this is doable, but the Str should probably be in the 5-7 range.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 31, 2005)

probably more than that, if its tendrils are able to lift a person off the ground.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2005)

Yes, but its tendrils "gently grasp the prey and lower it into the flower bud" which "looks like a large, closed pink rosebud, three yards across, sprouting right out of the ground".  So really, it just needs to be able to drag that much weight.  A Strength score of 5 can drag 250 pounds.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 1, 2005)

i suppose so... but then, you're ignoring the often-pointed-out-to-me rule that suggests a Large creature should have at least an 18 Str. 

this part seems to suggest that the tendrils tear it apart as its only attack: "After that, the prey takes damage at the rate of 1d3 per round . . . but the damage is completely painless, anaesthetic, and a sleeping victim will feel nothing."

i'd say Str 10 to keep it from having a penalty.  if you really love your Str 5, i can raise that damage to 1d6 to at least keep it constent.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2005)

Str 10 is perfectly acceptable.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 5, 2005)

Good.  



			
				Hollow World Boxed Set said:
			
		

> The somnastis plant is carnivorous. It waits until its prey is lulled to sleep by its odor, and then opens the bud of its flower. Inside are tough tendrils which can reach up to 30’; they gently grasp the prey and lower it into the flower bud. After that, the prey takes damage at the rate of 1d3 per round . . . but the damage is completely painless, anaesthetic, and a sleeping victim will feel nothing.




I guess it grapples or attaches helpless prey, and pulls it into its space.  Its tendrils have 30 feet reach, and thus can pull creatures from a distance, and maybe they constrict??  They also have an anesthetic probably by touch that keeps the victim from feeling the pain and thus waking up.



			
				Hollow World Boxed Set said:
			
		

> When a potential victim comes within 30’ of one of these plants, he will smell its bewitching, flowery fragrance. At that time, ro11 1d6. The is is the number of turns before the aroma gets to him. When the rolled number of turns is past, he must make a saving throw vs. Poisons or fall asleep. If he falls asleep, he will not awaken for an hour. If he make his saving throw,  the plant’s smell cannot again affect him until he goes out of its range and returns to smell it again.




they have a scent-based attack and a 30 foot range (do we keep the 1-6 round delay or not?) that puts creatures to sleep for an hour on a failed save.  Success indicates immunity to the aroma until the creature goes out of range.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I guess it grapples or attaches helpless prey, and pulls it into its space.  Its tendrils have 30 feet reach, and thus can pull creatures from a distance, and maybe they constrict??  They also have an anesthetic probably by touch that keeps the victim from feeling the pain and thus waking up.




If they are helpless, it doesn't really need to grapple them to drag them, does it?  The flower bud does the damage, not the tendrils, so instead of contrict, I think it is more of a "bite" or even a swallow whole/crushing damage effect.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> they have a scent-based attack and a 30 foot range (do we keep the 1-6 round delay or not?) that puts creatures to sleep for an hour on a failed save.  Success indicates immunity to the aroma until the creature goes out of range.




I'd ditch the onset delay.  If anything, make it an inhaled poison, which has a built-in one-minute delay for secondary damage.


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> If they are helpless, it doesn't really need to grapple them to drag them, does it?  The flower bud does the damage, not the tendrils, so instead of contrict, I think it is more of a "bite" or even a swallow whole/crushing damage effect.




maybe an acid damage then?  and the tendrils are a touch attack?

The carnivorous somnastis plant waits until its prey is lulled to sleep by its odor, and then opens the bud of its flower. Inside are the plant's tough tendrils, which gently grasp the prey and lower it into the flower bud.

Acid (Ex): The flower bud in the center of a somnastis plant constantly secretes acid.  Any creature touching it takes 1d3 points of acid damage per round.  This acid also acts as an anesthetic, making the creature immune to pain unless it succeeds on a DC X Fortitude save.  The save Dc is Constitution-based.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'd ditch the onset delay.  If anything, make it an inhaled poison, which has a built-in one-minute delay for secondary damage.




?

A somnastis plant continually creates a flowery fragrance that fills a 30-foot radius around the plant.  This aroma actually carries a poison that puts creatures to sleep.

Poison (Ex): Inhaled, Fortitude DC X, initial damage and secondary damage sleep for one hour. The save DC is Constitution-based.  The effect of this poison is not cumulative with each failed saving throw, but creatures waking up will be subject to its effects again if they fail their saves.  Any creature that succeeds on its saving throw becomes immune to the poison until it leaves the area of effect.


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> maybe an acid damage then?  and the tendrils are a touch attack?
> 
> The carnivorous somnastis plant waits until its prey is lulled to sleep by its odor, and then opens the bud of its flower. Inside are the plant's tough tendrils, which gently grasp the prey and lower it into the flower bud.
> 
> Acid (Ex): The flower bud in the center of a somnastis plant constantly secretes acid.  Any creature touching it takes 1d3 points of acid damage per round.  This acid also acts as an anesthetic, making the creature immune to pain unless it succeeds on a DC X Fortitude save.  The save Dc is Constitution-based.




That should work.  Note that the plant gets a +4 bonus on the attack roll against a helpless oponent (as normal for the helpless condition).



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> ?
> 
> A somnastis plant continually creates a flowery fragrance that fills a 30-foot radius around the plant.  This aroma actually carries a poison that puts creatures to sleep.
> 
> Poison (Ex): Inhaled, Fortitude DC X, initial damage and secondary damage sleep for one hour. The save DC is Constitution-based.  The effect of this poison is not cumulative with each failed saving throw, but creatures waking up will be subject to its effects again if they fail their saves.  Any creature that succeeds on its saving throw becomes immune to the poison until it leaves the area of effect.




I was just offering up a way of retaining the onset delay, by suggesting initial damage none, secondary damage sleep.   However, the way you wrote it up looks fine.


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2005)

Hmm, I didn’t catch that, but I think your way is a bit simpler.  

Should it have low-light vision, or blindsense do you think?


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2005)

I prefer blindsense with most plant creatures, unless they are vaguely humanoid.  Just a personal preference.


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2005)

it makes sense.    and 30 ft range seems to fit, especially given that its reach and poison have that same range.  

this part would seem to be important as we could convert it into a drug or something:

Its leaves, when chewed for an hour or so, make the user enter a sleepwalking state. He is aware of what is going on around him. He can answer questions put to him, but will not if they are not questions he would ordinarily answer (the Gentle Folk are so passive, of course, that they’ll never answer anything). He does not think and does not feel any emotion in this state. The state lasts 1-3 (1/2d6) days.
Someone forced to chew the leaves or take a drug based on them can make a saving throw vs. Poison in order to resist its effects. He gets a + 2 bonus to his roll. It’s fairly easy to resist; most Gentle Folk using the leaves voluntarily forfeit their saving throws, because they desire the leafs effects.
If a character under the leaf’s influence is attacked or confronts a situation where he definitely would like to break out of its effects, he must make an ordinary saving throw vs. Poison; success means he breaks out. He can only make one saving throw attempt per turn.


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2005)

30 feet does indeed make perfect sense.    

Here's a very rough draft in the drug format...

Somnastis Plant Leaves
Description:  These leaves are similar in consistency to those of a rose, only much larger.
Initial Effect: Dazed for X rounds/minutes?.
Secondary Effect: Its leaves, when chewed for an hour or so, make the user enter a sleepwalking state. He is aware of what is going on around him. He can answer questions put to him, but will not if they are not questions he would ordinarily answer. He does not think and does not feel any emotion in this state. The state lasts 1d3 days.
Price: ??? gp.
Side Effects: Those under the effect of baccaran take a -4 circumstance penalty on saving throws involving illusions for 2d4 hours after using this mild hallucinogen.
Overdose: ???.
Addiction: Low?.


----------



## Shade (Apr 7, 2005)

Add a request for the death demon from Castle Amber to the queue.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 7, 2005)

i want to see when/if Paizo wants us to do something with Castle Amber monsters first.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2005)

Oh yeah...it can wait.


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## BOZ (Apr 8, 2005)

I don't know that I want to copy the BoVD's drug format per se.  I don't think I want to make it addictive, and I really worry about the idea of an overdose.  Let me try taking what you wrote as prose text rather than formatted, and going back to include some other stuff from the original...

Somnastis Plant Leaves
The leaves of a somnastis plant are similar in consistency to those of a rose, only much larger.  When a creature chews these leaves for at least an hour, the creature must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or enter a trancelike, sleepwalking state.  The creature is effectively dazed for the next 1d3 days, and does not think or feel any emotion in this state.  The creature is aware of what is going on around it and can answer questions if it wishes.  The creature can intentionally fail its saving throw if it wishes, and creatures immune to poison are not affected by ingesting the leaves.

If a creature under the leaf's influence is attacks or confronts a situation where it definitely wants to break out of its effects, it can attempt a DC X Will save to shake off the effects.  A creature may make only one such attempt per minute.

"It's fairly easy to resist" suggests the DC for the Fort save should be low.  The Will save, on the other hand, might have to be higher.


----------



## Mortis (Apr 8, 2005)

Fort DC 10, Will DC 15?

Regards,

Gary


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## Shade (Apr 8, 2005)

That all sounds good to me, guys.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 8, 2005)

thanks!  

posting in homebrews...


----------



## Shade (Apr 8, 2005)

Here are my suggestions for what is left...

Organization: Solitary or patch (2-6)

Challenge Rating: 1

Weight:  500 lbs.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 8, 2005)

cool, updating again...

is there anything left to do, or do we have another 10 critters ready to post?


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## Shade (Apr 8, 2005)

It looks good to me.  I think its time to crack open a 10-pack.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 8, 2005)

heheh.  

sometime over the weekend, if i can find the time...


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 8, 2005)

Just curious, has the Thoul been converted to 3.5 yet?


----------



## BOZ (Apr 8, 2005)

he's in the queue in the Overhaul thread.


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 8, 2005)

All righty.


----------



## Estlor (May 2, 2005)

There's also a 3rd party stab at the Thoul in the Blackmoor Campaign Setting book from Goodman/Zeitgeist.

Dunno if this has been done/falls into the "Castle Amber" category, but the Living Statue was always an iconic monster for me back in the Basic Set days.  I'm kind of shocked it hasn't shown up in a WotC monster book yet...

One of my other favorites was the drakes (shapechanging reptilian fey are always neat).  Good stuff there.


----------



## BOZ (Jun 1, 2005)

In an effort to get this thread moving again, I started going through the 2E Mystara MC.  I wrote up brief descriptions of creatures I'd like to convert for those who are unfamiliar with them:

Actaeon: 11 HD, N - elk centaur, breath weapon turns victims into animals, summons woodland creatures, 

Agarat: 4 HD, CE - ghoul-like undead, has energy draining scream

Ash Crawler: 3 HD, N - burrowing fire creature with clamping jaws

Baldandar: 6 HD, NE - shapeshifting humanoids with a poisonous bite and magic

Bhut: 7 HD, LE - shapeshifting humanoids with a numbing bite

Coltpixy: 3 HD, CN - unicorn-like pony

Crone of Chaos: 6 HD, CE - relative of the hag that controls animals

Darkhood: 13 HD, NE - undead that feeds on fear

Darkwing: 3 HD, NE - flying humanoids that hunt at night


If you're looking for more info on each of these, there are 3.0 conversions at the Vaults of Pandius


----------



## Shade (Jun 1, 2005)

Excellent!   I've always liked the Actaeon.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 1, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> If you're looking for more info on each of these, there are 3.0 conversions at the Vaults of Pandius



More up to date link here: http://pandius.com

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Jun 1, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Excellent!   I've always liked the Actaeon.




they even had an Ecology Of article - a rarity for non-AD&D monsters.    want to start with this fella then?


----------



## Mortis (Jun 2, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> they even had an Ecology Of article - a rarity for non-AD&D monsters.  want to start with this fella then?



Yes, let's start with the Actaeon.

Here's a few links:
http://www.geocities.com/kanegrundar/actaeon.rtf
http://p096.ezboard.com/fnecromancergamesfrm31.showMessageRange?start=1&stop=20&topicID=295.topic
http://pandius.com/actaeon.html
http://pandius.com/actaeon3.html 

Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Jun 2, 2005)

sweetrock.


----------



## Shade (Jun 2, 2005)

SweetrockofGibraltar.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 14, 2005)

I thought I would make a start on the Actaeon.

I put the Strength that high to reflect the +6 damage of the original as well as it's carrying capacity in OD&D.

I replaced the monstrous humanoid's darkvision with low-light vision as it seems more fitting, not sure if it's legal though, any precedents?

Well here it is so far:

----------------------
Actaeon (Elk Centaur)
Type: Large Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice: 11d8+22 (71 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (+1 Dex, -1 Size, +6 Natural) Flat-footed: 15 Touch: 10
BAB/Grapple: +11/+21
Attack: Large Spear +17 melee (2d6+6) or Gore +17 melee (2d6+3)
Full Attack: Large Spear +17/12/7 melee (2d6+6) and Gore +12 melee (2d6+3)
Face/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (15 ft. with spear)
Special Attacks: Breath Weapon, Summoning
Special Qualities: Camouflage, Low-light vision.
Saves: Fort:+5 Ref:+8 Will:+8
Abilities: STR:23 DEX:12 CON:14 INT:14 WIS:13 CHA:11
Skills: Handle Animal +5, Hide +5, Knowledge (Nature) +12, Listen +12, Move Silently +6, Spot +12, Survival +11 
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Improved Natural Attack (Gore), Track

Environment: Temperate Forests
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 07
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually Neutral
Advancement: By Character Class
Level Adjustment: +2
--------------------------

Any thoughts/comments?

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## Krishnath (Jun 14, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> In an effort to get this thread moving again, I started going through the 2E Mystara MC.  I wrote up brief descriptions of creatures I'd like to convert for those who are unfamiliar with them:
> 
> Actaeon: 11 HD, N - elk centaur, breath weapon turns victims into animals, summons woodland creatures,
> 
> ...



The Bhut is in Fiend Folio and is now more in line with it's mythological origins. (a possessing undead spirit), and the Ash Crawler is in Sandstorm under the name of Ashworm, they dropped the fire type and made it a magical beast, but it is still a 3HD threat.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Jun 14, 2005)

Krishnath said:
			
		

> The Bhut is in Fiend Folio and is now more in line with it's mythological origins. (a possessing undead spirit), and the Ash Crawler is in Sandstorm under the name of Ashworm, they dropped the fire type and made it a magical beast, but it is still a 3HD threat.



Um, the ash crawler and ashworm aren't the same creature.  The ash crawler is rat like, not wormlike.  The ashworm is actually a revised version of the thunderherder from the 1e MMII (they actually use the name "Thunderherder in its description".  Maybe you're thinking about the ash rat?


----------



## BOZ (Jun 14, 2005)

thanks!  

i'm on a bit of a break from conversions for the next, oh, week or so.  i'm working on a super-secret project.    i will start the actaeon soon, but of course advance work like this is appreciated and i will take it into account at that time.  

that said, Str 23 seems high at first, but when you see that a centaur has 18, and this guy is higher HD than a centaur, it might be just fine.


----------



## BOZ (Jun 14, 2005)

Krishnath said:
			
		

> The Bhut is in Fiend Folio and is now more in line with it's mythological origins. (a possessing undead spirit)





is that the same creature as from the old basic D&D books?  because if not, i can still convert it as a separate creature.


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## Krishnath (Jun 15, 2005)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> Um, the ash crawler and ashworm aren't the same creature.  The ash crawler is rat like, not wormlike.  The ashworm is actually a revised version of the thunderherder from the 1e MMII (they actually use the name "Thunderherder in its description".  Maybe you're thinking about the ash rat?



See, I didn't know that. 

Boz: I don't know, but then again I don't have any 1st edition books. (I have a few 2nd edition though...)


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## Mortis (Jun 15, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> that said, Str 23 seems high at first, but when you see that a centaur has 18, and this guy is higher HD than a centaur, it might be just fine.



I was rather worried myself with Strength 23, I suppose if it uses it's spear two-handed them it's Strength could go down to 18. Then again, in OD&D, it could carry up to 6000 coins (or 600 lbs) and move at half speed - so that fits in with 3.5's maximum load of 600 lbs for Strength 23.

I should have mentioned that I assumed it's two spear attacks were with the same spear and not one in each hand, and coz of it's 11 HD it now gets a third!  



> i'm on a bit of a break from conversions for the next, oh, week or so. i'm working on a super-secret project.  i will start the actaeon soon, but of course advance work like this is appreciated and i will take it into account at that time.



That's OK, no hurry, just putting a few ideas forward.  

Regards,
Mortis


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## Filby (Jun 15, 2005)

I think the actaeon might be better as a fey than a monstrous humanoid. The "Ecology of the Actaeon" article in 1E _Dragon Magazine_ made it seem like a wholly magical entity, and it's also fairly similar in concept to the shatjan from _The Horde_, which was converted as a fey.


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## BOZ (Jun 16, 2005)

like a centaur, it's borderline.  i guess the question becomes, is it "more fey" than a centaur?


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## Mortis (Jun 16, 2005)

I think Fey would be more fitting. 

However, it will then only have a single attack with it's spear. We could put it's HD upto 12 if we want it to keep two spear attacks.

Saves will not change.

Fey get Low-light vision - which is what I gave the Actaeon  

They'll also get an extra 44 Skill points so I'll increase the skills I already gave it.

Actaeon (Fey version with an extra HD)

----------------------
Actaeon (Elk Centaur)
Type: Large Fey
Hit Dice: 12d6+22 (66 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (+1 Dex, -1 Size, +6 Natural) Flat-footed: 15 Touch: 10
BAB/Grapple: +6/+16
Attack: Large Spear +12 melee (2d6+6) or Gore +12 melee (2d6+3)
Full Attack: Large Spear +12/7 melee (2d6+6) and Gore +7 melee (2d6+3)
Face/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (15 ft. with spear)
Special Attacks: Breath Weapon, Summon Woodland Animals
Special Qualities: Camouflage, Low-light vision.
Saves: Fort:+6 Ref:+9 Will:+9
Abilities: STR:23 DEX:12 CON:14 INT:14 WIS:13 CHA:11
Skills: Handle Animal +15, Hide +12, Knowledge (Nature) +17, Listen +16, Move Silently +16, Search +17, Spot +16, Survival + 16
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Power Attack, Track, Weapon Focus (Spear)
Environment: Temperate Forests
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 07
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Neutral
Advancement: By Character Class
Level Adjustment: +2
--------------------------

Regards,
Mortis


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## BOZ (Jun 26, 2005)

ah, here we go.  

first off, here are all the old stats:

D&D Master Set:

Actaeon
Armor Class: 3
Hit Dice: 11**
Move: 150' (50')
Attacks: 2 spears/1 antler or breath
Damage: 7-1217-12/2-16
No. Appearing: 0
Save As: Cleric: 11
Morale: 10
Treasure Type: B
Alignment: Neutral
XP Value: 2,700

The actaeon is a protector of woodland creatures. Each is manlike, but 9' tall, with the head and antlers of an elk. This solitary creature can camouflage itself perfectly (as if invisible) in light or dense woods. When angered by the wanton slaying of woodland creatures (or similar vile acts), the actaeon springs out of hiding, usually with surprise (1-5 on 1d6). Large wood and bone spears are often used.

It has a powerful breath weapon that can he used once per day, filling a 10'x 10'x 10' cube; each victim within it must "lake a Saving Throw vs. Dragon Breath or be polymorphed into a normal forest creature (owl, squirrel, deer. etc,). It' the saying throw is made. the transformation stiff occurs, but lasts for only 24 hours,

Once per day an actaeon may summon woodland creatures to assist it; 1-6 creatures arrive in 1-4 turns. Choose or randomly determine the types of creatures appearing. 1-boar, 2-bear, 3-centaur, 4-griffon, 5-lizard (chameleon), and/or 6-treant. An acteon sometimes works with a druid to preserve the safety of the woods, especially if a dangerous threat is involved.






D&D Rules Cyclopedia:

Actaeon (Elk Centaur)
Armor Class: 3
Hit Dice: 11** (L)
Move: 150' (50')
Attacks: 2 spears/1 antler or breath (special)
Damage: 1d6 +6/1d6 +6/2d8
No. Appearing: 0 (1)
Save As: C11
Morale: 10
Treasure Type: B
Intelligence: 12
Alignment: Neutral
XP Value: 2,700

Monster Type: Monster (Rare).

This solitary creature is a protector of woodland creatures. The actaeon is 9' tall, with the arms, torso, and facial features of a human but the antlers and lower legs of an elk; its whole body is covered with brown elklike hide.

It can camouflage itself perfectly (as if invisible) in light or dense woods. When angered by the wanton slaying of woodland creatures (or similar vile acts), the actaeon springs out of hiding, usually with surprise (1-5 on 1d6). It often uses large wood and bone spears to punish or slay the defilers of the woods.

It has a powerful breath weapon that can be used once per day, filling a 10' x 10' x 10' cube; each victim within it must make a saving throw vs. dragon breath or be polymorphed into a normal forest creature (owl, squirrel, deer, etc.). If the saving throw is successful, the transformation still occurs, but lasts for only 24 hours.

Once per day an actaeon may summon woodland creatures to assist it; 1d6 creatures arrive in 1d4 turns. Choose or randomly determine the types of creatures appearing:

I	boar
2	bear
3	centaur
4	griffon
5	lizard (chameleon)
6 	treant

Actaeons are members of the woodland community along with centaurs, dryads, etc. They are sufficiently bold and rare that they are renowned heroes of these forest folk. Actaeon sometimes work with druids to preserve the safety of the woods, especially if a dangerous threat is involved.

There can be actaeon spellcasters; see "Monster Spellcasters" on page 215.

Terrain: Woods.

Load: 3,000 cn at full speed; 6,000 cn at half speed.



Mystara Monstrous Compendium:

Actaeon
CLIMATE/TERRAIN:	Temperate Forest	
FREQUENCY:	Rare
ORGANIZATION:	Solitary	
ACTIVITY CYCLE:	Day
DIET:	Herbivore	
INTELLIGENCE:	Very (11 - 12)
TREASURE:	P (B)	
ALIGNMENT:	Neutral
NO. APPEARING:	1	
ARMOR CLASS:	3
MOVEMENT:	15	
HIT DICE:	11
THAC0:	9	
NO. OF ATTACKS:	3
DAMAGE/ATTACK:	1d6+6 (spear) / 1d6+6(spear) / 2d8(antlers)	
SPECIAL ATTACKS:	Polymorph breath,  summoning
SPECIAL DEFENSES:	Camouflage	
MAGIC RESISTANCE:	Nil
SIZE:	L (9' tall)	
MORALE:	Champion (15)
XP VALUE:	4,000		

A solitary being, the actaeon is a protector and hero among woodland creatures. Some Mystarans call it an "elk centaur" because, like a centaur, in 9-foot-tall body combines human and animal elements. The actaeon has the torso, arms, and facial features of a human, but the antlers and lower legs of an elk. Brown, elk-like hide covers its entire body.

Elk centaurs speak their own language and the sylvan woodland tongue.  Some also speak Common.

Combat: In combat these creatures are formidable, boasting a number of special ticks and abilities. It is no wonder that other intelligent forest beings regard them with awe.

The actaeon can camouflage itself perfectly (as if invisible) in light or dense woods. When angered by the wanton slaying of woodland creatures (or similar vile acts), it springs out of hiding, usually with surprise (opponents suffer a -5 penalty to their surprise rolls).

This fearsome creature attacks with large spears made of "mod and bone, and gores enemies with its antlers. Its incredible speed enables it to make two spear attacks per round. Given its massive strength and the great size of the weapons, each spear inflicts 1d6 + 6 points of damage.

A powerful magical breath weapon complements the actaeon's other capabilities. Once per day, it can breathe out a warm, greenish mist, filling a 10 x 10 x Barefoot cube; anyone within it must make a saving throw vs. breath weapon or be polymorphed into a common forest creature, taking on the creature's intelligence and habits as well as its looks. ("Common" forest creatures include owls, squirrels, deer, boars, and the like) This change is permanent unless countered by another polymorph spell, or by dispel magic cast at 12th level or higher. If the saving throw is successful, the transformation still occurs, but it lasts for only 24 hours. The breath weapon can be used once per day.

Also once per day, the actaeon can summon woodland creatures to assist it; 1d6 creatures arrive in 1d4 turns. Choose from the list below or roll 1d6 to determine the creature type at random.

As if the numerous aforementioned powers weren't enough, a few venerable actaeons are druids of up to the 9th level ability, though such individuals are quite rare.

Habitat/Society: Actaeons live alone except during the mating season, which occurs in the spring of every third year. The following autumn, a female gives birth to a single fawn. The fawn remains with her through the winter, learning the basics of survival: how to forage for bark and twigs, how to shape spears and other basic tools, and how to use sharpened sticks and bones to dig edible roots from the ground beneath the snow. Many fawns starve or freeze during their first winter, or fall prey to an attack. Survivors set out on their own come spring, each pursuing its own solitary existence.

Actaeons have an eye for treasure; they collect small hoards in secure, well-hidden locations, such as the hollow trunk of a fallen tree or beneath a rock. As intelligent creatures, they know others also value coins and jewels. Actaeons often trade their riches for tools and-if nature is harsh-for food in the dead of winter.

Ecology: Actaeons belong to the woodland community that includes centaurs, dryads, and similar creatures. Because actaeons are bold and rare, other forest folk consider them heroes. Actaeons sometimes work with druids to preserve the safety of the woods, especially to thwart a serious danger.

Actaeon Woodland Creature Summoning Table
Roll	Creature
1	Boar	
2	Bear	
3	Centaur	
4	griffon
5 	lizard (chameleon)
6	treant


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## BOZ (Jun 26, 2005)

I think I will keep them at their original 11 HD.  I will go with Filby & Morits' suggestions and make it a Fey rather than Monstrous Humanoid.  And Mortis' assessment of 23 Str makes sense as well.  The rest, as they say, is up for debate.   (not that I disagree with anything in particular that he wrote... just want to consider possibilities as usual).

*Actaeon*
Large Fey
Hit Dice: 11d6+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 40 ft (4 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (-1 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+X
Attack: Spear +X melee (2d6+6/x3) or gore +X melee (2d8+6)
Full Attack: 2 spears? +X melee (2d6+6/x3) and gore +6 melee (2d8+X)
Space/Reach: 10 ft/10 ft
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, summoning
Special Qualities: Camouflage, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str 23, Dex X, Con X, Int 12, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 98
Feats: 4

Environment: Temperate forest
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: X
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +X

The favored class should be Druid, with Ranger as a possible second choice, and Barbarian as even less likely.


I checked out the links to other conversions that Mortis posted.  Including his suggestions above, we have some ideas to start with:

Dex ranges from 12-15; Con ranges from 12-16; Wis ranges from 12-15; and Cha ranges from 11-14.

I see one with a suggestion for Scent as an SQ.

Possible skills: Concentration, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Survival

Possible feats: Alertness, Cleave, Endurance, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (Gore), Power Attack, Skill Focus (Knowledge [nature]), Track, Weapon Focus (spear)

Languages: Common, Sylvan, possibly the druidic language

Skill bonuses:  possibly a Hide bonus (although maybe something like the ranger camouflage ability is more appropriate).  Maybe some bonuses to Handle Animal, Move Silently (in woods), and Survival.


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## GrayLinnorm (Jun 27, 2005)

Treasure: Standard

For the summoning ability, a summon nature's ally spell should work.  Oddly, the treant, which is the strongest monster the actaeon can summon, isn't on the SNA tables.  The seeds of the treant (from Arms & Equipment Guide) have summon nature's ally IX as a prequisite, but that may be too high.


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## GrayLinnorm (Jun 27, 2005)

Here's a stab at the breath weapon

Breath Weapon (Su): Once per day, the actaeon can breathe a cone of green mist.  Anyone caught in the breath weapon must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC X) or be affected by a baleful polymorph spell at 11th level (forest creatures only).  The save DC is Constitution based.

By the way, under the old rules, how did you defeat the actaeon if the breath weapon worked regardless of the results of the saving throw.  If the effect wore off, it would have time to use its breath weapon if you tried to go after it.


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## Mortis (Jun 27, 2005)

Just a few points...


			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The rest, as they say, is up for debate.



Isn't it always.  It's always interesting to see other people's take on things.


> Large Fey
> Hit Dice: 11d6+X (X hp)
> ...
> Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+X



What is the BAB for an 11HD fey? I thought it was 5 (same as wizard), which is why I bumped the HD up to 12 to give it a second attack with it's spear.


> 2 spears?



I'm fairly certain that the original didn't use two spears, it just had two attacks with the same spear. Hence the reason why I gave it a BAB of +6.


> Improved Natural Attack (Gore)



I gave it this to bump the damage up to 2d6, closer to the originsl then the standard large fey gore of 1d8(?) 


> possibly a Hide bonus (although maybe something like the ranger camouflage ability is more appropriate).



Especially considering it's own camouflage ability.  


			
				GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> By the way, under the old rules, how did you defeat the actaeon if the breath weapon worked regardless of the results of the saving throw. If the effect wore off, it would have time to use its breath weapon if you tried to go after it.



Spread out, hopefully the cloud won't get you all.  

Regards,
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 27, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> What is the BAB for an 11HD fey? I thought it was 5 (same as wizard), which is why I bumped the HD up to 12 to give it a second attack with it's spear.




The BAB is +5, which does not give it an iterative attack.  The question becomes what is more important:  preserving the HD or the second attack of the original?  I'd argue that the latter is more important, because it affects not only BAB, but saves, skills, feats, etc.  The monster can always be advanced later, allowing it iterative attacks.   That's just my opinion.    



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> I gave it this to bump the damage up to 2d6, closer to the originsl then the standard large fey gore of 1d8(?)




While this is a valid use of the feat, it isn't necessary.  Per the MM monster design section:  "Particularly tough or weak creatures might have higher or lower damage values. In general, you can vary the power of a monster's attacks by moving up or down one or two lines on the table. For example, a Medium monster’s bite usually has a damage value of 1d6, but it could be as little as 1d3 or as much as 2d6. Use the 1d3 value for a creature with a very small or weak mouth, and the 2d6 value to represent a creature with a large or very powerful mouth."

So we get a free feat to work with.


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## BOZ (Jun 27, 2005)

the BAB is +5, i was just not paying attention.  

the text seems almost purposefully vague about whether it makes 2 attacks per round with the same spear, or attacks with two spears.  however, i like this line from the Mystara MC: "Its incredible speed enables it to make two spear attacks per round." sounds almost like the benefit from haste, or certain class features, no?  and it seems to be able to essentially leap out from hiding and still get its full attack.

and i agree with Shade, thus why i never use Improved Natural Attack.    that feat seems to be more about advancing monsters than creating new ones.


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## Mortis (Jun 28, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> the BAB is +5, i was just not paying attention.
> 
> the text seems almost purposefully vague about whether it makes 2 attacks per round with the same spear, or attacks with two spears. however, i like this line from the Mystara MC: "Its incredible speed enables it to make two spear attacks per round." sounds almost like the benefit from haste, or certain class features, no?.



IIRC In the illustration of it in the RC, it was only carrying one spear. Not that really means much.  



> ...and it seems to be able to essentially leap out from hiding and still get its full attack...



Maybe something similar to the 'Pounce' ability of the cats?



> and i agree with Shade, thus why i never use Improved Natural Attack.  that feat seems to be more about advancing monsters than creating new ones.



I tend to forget about the leeway given in the monster design section and as it frees up a feat all the better (hmm... must remember this for my sea wolf conversion).


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## BOZ (Jun 28, 2005)

due to technical difficulties at my house, i need to put this thread (but, oddly enough, only this thread) on hold for a few days.  sorry - it'll be back before you know it.


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## BOZ (Jul 2, 2005)

i don't think i would want to give it a pounce attack.  like i said before, maybe something more like the "extra attack per round at full attack value" that haste and certain class features give you.


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## Mortis (Jul 4, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i don't think i would want to give it a pounce attack. like i said before, maybe something more like the "extra attack per round at full attack value" that haste and certain class features give you.



I wasn't disagreeing  , just envisaging how it would look.

How about something along the lines of:

Ambush Attack (Ex): An actaeon that attacks from a hidden position may make an extra attack, at full attack value, for that round only.

Regards,
Mortis


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## Mortis (Jul 7, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I was rather worried myself with Strength 23, I suppose if it uses it's spear two-handed them it's Strength could go down to 18. Then again, in OD&D, it could carry up to 6000 coins (or 600 lbs) and move at half speed - so that fits in with 3.5's maximum load of 600 lbs for Strength 23.




Oops! Completely forgot aboutit being 'Large' (actually it was pointed out to me on this thread, it's Str could go down to 18 and still carry 600 lbs and also, if using the spear two-handed, still get +6 to damage.

Regards,
Mortis


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## BOZ (Jul 7, 2005)

no need to decrease his strength any - i like your original estimation.  

here's what i had meant about adapting from the haste spell:
"When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation." and maybe the parenthetical stipulations right after that.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2005)

It sounds like the alacrity ability that a few creatures possess.


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## BOZ (Jul 7, 2005)

more info, please.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2005)

Alacrity (Su): Once per round, the mithral golem may take an extra standard action (either before or after its other actions in the round).

The monster of legend can act as if permanently hasted.

I know there are more, but I can't find 'em at the moment.


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## BOZ (Jul 7, 2005)

i don't know if i like that so much as what i posted... there doesn't seem to be any evidence that they act as if hasted, only that they get an extra attack per round because they are quick.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2005)

Yeah, I swear there's a critter with the ability you describe, but I'm at a loss finding it now.   :\ 

How about...

Arboreal Alacrity (Su):  When making a full attack action, an actaeon may make one extra attack with any manufactured weapon it is holding. The attack is made using the creature's highest attack bonus with that weapon.


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## BOZ (Jul 10, 2005)

good enough.  

back to what i was saying before...



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I checked out the links to other conversions that Mortis posted.  Including his suggestions above, we have some ideas to start with:
> 
> Dex ranges from 12-15; Con ranges from 12-16; Wis ranges from 12-15; and Cha ranges from 11-14.
> 
> ...


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## Mortis (Jul 11, 2005)

Another version of the Actaeon has been posted recently here



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> _Dex ranges from 12-15; Con ranges from 12-16; Wis ranges from 12-15; and Cha ranges from 11-14._




I originally had Dex as 12 but on reflection I would up it to 14
Con I would keep as 14, and Wis at 13. 
I would also be tempted to up Cha from 11 to 12 or 13.

_



			I see one with a suggestion for Scent as an SQ.
		
Click to expand...


_Not sure the reason for this so I suggest we drop it.



> _Possible skills: Concentration, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Survival_




Don't know if it really needs Concentration, but the others are all good skills for it to have.



> _Possible feats: Alertness, Cleave, Endurance, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (Gore), Power Attack, Skill Focus (Knowledge [nature]), Track, Weapon Focus (spear)_




I think we've pretty much decided that Improved Natural Attack is not needed.  
I've gone for Alertness, Endurance, Power Attack, Track, Weapon Focus (Spear)



> _Languages: Common, Sylvan, possibly the druidic language_
> 
> _Skill bonuses: possibly a Hide bonus (although maybe something like the ranger camouflage ability is more appropriate). Maybe some bonuses to Handle Animal, Move Silently (in woods), and Survival._




I vote for the ranger's camouflage ability, and give it a +4 racial bonus to Move Silently (in woods) and SUrvival and a +2 racial bonus to Handle Animal.

Regards,
Mortis


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## BOZ (Jul 12, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Another version of the Actaeon has been posted recently here




cool.    the ability scores all exceed our ranges, so I'm not going to stick with them.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> I originally had Dex as 12 but on reflection I would up it to 14
> Con I would keep as 14, and Wis at 13.
> I would also be tempted to up Cha from 11 to 12 or 13.




so maybe Str 23, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 12 ?



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Don't know if it really needs Concentration, but the others are all good skills for it to have.




for summoning maybe?



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> I've gone for Alertness, Endurance, Power Attack, Track, Weapon Focus (Spear)




that seems like a good enough combination.  One would have to be dropped or made bonus.


----------



## Shade (Jul 12, 2005)

Allow me to present the infamous _voice of dissention_.    

Looking at ability scores of similar creatures;

Centaur (Large):  Str 18, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 11
Hybsil (Small):  Str 8, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 10
Wemic (Large):  Str 18, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 9
Tauric Creature template:  A tauric creature uses the base humanoid's Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, and it uses the base creature's Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores.
Elk (Silver Marches):  Str 14, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6
Elk (Dragon #333):  Str 16, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 6
Heavy Horse:  Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6

Based on all this, I'd go with Str 18, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 12.  Nothing in the original description seems to indicate that they are any stronger than a typical centaur, unless I missed something.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 12, 2005)

so 18 for Str then?  i guess we could stand the loss, since a Large spear does twice as much damage already anyway.


----------



## Shade (Jul 13, 2005)

Good point.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 13, 2005)

OK, let's examine the three main combat functions of an actaeon.  Some suggestions have been made about each, and I have examples on each from other conversions I have seen.  These examples follow below; we can either take things from them, come up with the whole ability on our own, or both.



			
				Mystara MC Appendix said:
			
		

> The actaeon can camouflage itself perfectly (as if invisible) in light or dense woods. When angered by the wanton slaying of woodland creatures (or similar vile acts), it springs out of hiding, usually with surprise (opponents suffer a -5 penalty to their surprise rolls).




Skills: * All Actaeons receive an innate +10 Hide bonus when in light or dense woods, +4 innate bonus to Knowledge Nature and Wilderness Lore (Woodland Only). 

Camouflage (Ex): It can camouflage itself perfectly (as if invisible) in light or dense woods. 

Camouflage: If an actaeon successfully passes a Hide skill check, he is deemed as though he is under the effects of an invisibility spell if he is hiding in woodland areas.  Attacking from hiding gives the actaeon an additional +5 bonus to his initiative roll.  This ability is natural, so magic detecting spells will not pick up on the creature.

Skills: Actaeon have racial bonuses of +4 to Animal Empathy, Hide (bonus increases to +8 in woodlands), Move Silently (in woodlands only), and Wilderness Lore skill checks.

I vote for the ranger's camouflage ability, and give it a +4 racial bonus to Move Silently (in woods) and SUrvival and a +2 racial bonus to Handle Animal.

Camouflage (Ex): An actaeon can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment.

Forest Stealth (Ex) : Within the forest, the acteon moves with uncanny agility and stealth. He recieves a circumstance bonus of +10 to hide checks, made within the forest.



			
				Mystara MC Appendix said:
			
		

> A powerful magical breath weapon complements the actaeon's other capabilities. Once per day, it can breathe out a warm, greenish mist, filling a 10 x 10 x 10 foot cube; anyone within it must make a saving throw vs. breath weapon or be polymorphed into a common forest creature, taking on the creature's intelligence and habits as well as its looks. ("Common" forest creatures include owls, squirrels, deer, boars, and the like) This change is permanent unless countered by another polymorph spell, or by dispel magic cast at 12th level or higher. If the saving throw is successful, the transformation still occurs, but it lasts for only 24 hours. The breath weapon can be used once per day.




Breath Weapon: Once per day, the Actaeon can breathe out a 10'x10' cone of warm greenish mist that forces any within the area of effect to make a Fortitude save DC 15, or be polymorphed into a common woodland animal of the DM's discretion. The effects are permanent until dispelled (Caster level 12), another polymorph spell, or wish. 

Polymorph Breath (Su): It has a powerful breath weapon that can be used once per day, filling a 10 ft. by 10 ft. by 10 ft. cube; each victim within it must make a Reflex saving throw (DC 18) or be polymorphed into a normal forest creature (owl, squirrel, deer, etc.). If the saving throw is successful, the transformation still occurs, but lasts for only 24 hours.

Polymorphing Breath: One per day, the actaeon breathes out a green mist that cover a 10ft x 10ft x 10ft area.  Anyone in that area must pass a Fort save (DC 20) or be turned into a common woodland creature (common as in owl, squirrel, deer, and so on).  The effects are permanent unless subjected to another polymorph spell or a dispel magic spell cast by a 12th level or higher cleric, sorceror, or wizard.  Even if the save passes, the victim still turns into a woodland creature, but the effect wear off after 24 hours.  

Breath Weapon (Su): Once per day, the actaeon can breathe a cone of green mist. Anyone caught in the breath weapon must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC X) or be affected by a baleful polymorph spell at 11th level (forest creatures only). The save DC is Constitution based.

Breath Weapon (Su) : once per day, the acteon can breath a cloud of green vapour. The cloud fills a 10'x10'x10' area that is adjacent to the acteon. Any being within it is affected by a strong baleful polymorph. The save DC is 22, but even a successful save means a duration of 24 hours. The Acteon may breathe again the next day to dispel his own breath. Save DC is con based.



			
				Mystara MC Appendix said:
			
		

> Also once per day, the actaeon can summon woodland creatures to assist it; 1d6 creatures arrive in 1d4 turns. Choose from the list below or roll 1d6 to determine the creature type at random.
> 
> Actaeon Woodland Creature Summoning Table
> Roll	Creature
> ...




Spell-like abilities: Once per day, the actaeon may Call Animals as a 12th level Druid. 

Summon Woodland Creatuers (Sp): Once per day an actaeon may summon woodland creatures to assist it; 1d6 creatures arrive in 10-40 rounds. Choose or randomly determine the type of creatures appearing:

1 boar
2 bear
3 centaur
4 griffon
5 lizard (chameleon)
6 treant

Summoning: Once per day, the actaeon can summon 1d6 woodland creatures to aid him.  They arrive in 1d4 turns and are determined on the table below.
1	Boar	
2	Bear	
3	Centaur	
4	Griffon
5	Lizard (chameleon)
6	Treant

Summon Nature's Allies (Sp) : Once per day, as a spell-like ability, the acteon may use a summon nature's ally VI effect.


----------



## Shade (Jul 13, 2005)

I vote for:


ranger's camouflage ability
wild empathy
Breath Weapon (Su): Once per day, the actaeon can breathe a cone of green mist. Anyone caught in the breath weapon must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC X) or be affected by a baleful polymorph spell at 12th level (forest creatures only). The save DC is Constitution based.
Spell-Like Abilities:  1/day--_summon nature's ally VI_.  Caster level 12th.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 14, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I vote for:
> 
> ranger's camouflage ability
> wild empathy
> ...



I second that vote.  



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> _I've gone for Alertness, Endurance, Power Attack, Track, Weapon Focus (Spear)_



Yeah that was in my version with the 12HD! I suggest we keep them all and make Endurance a bonus feat.


> _Don't know if it really needs Concentration, but the others are all good skills for it to have._




_Yes, I guess it needs Concentration for summoning.  _

So for Abilities
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 15,Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 13

...and it 'just' needs it's description, background and combat sections fleshing out.

Regards,
Mortis


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## BOZ (Jul 14, 2005)

"baleful polymorph spell at 12th level (forest creatures only)."

how exactly will this part work?  shouldn't it be a little better defined?

and what about the question before, regarding how long the mist remains or is that a non-issue?


copied from the Hamadryad:
Wild Empathy (Ex): This power works like the druid’s wild empathy class feature, except that the actaeon has a +X racial bonus on the check (as well as a +2 synergy bonus for Handle Animal). 


i agree that although SNA will not allow it to summon the same sort of creatures it could summon before, it probably makes more sense ruleswise.


----------



## Shade (Jul 14, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> "baleful polymorph spell at 12th level (forest creatures only)."
> 
> how exactly will this part work?  shouldn't it be a little better defined?
> 
> and what about the question before, regarding how long the mist remains or is that a non-issue?




The duration should be permanent, as the spell.  I don't think it shoud still last 24 hours even on a save, as that means no creature can ever avoid it.

Also, we need to list the length of the cone.  Is this better?

Breath Weapon (Su): Once per day, the actaeon can breathe a X-foot cone of green mist. Anyone caught in the breath weapon must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC X) or be affected by a baleful polymorph spell (caster level 12th).  The actaeon may only select a forest creature for the victim's new form. The save DC is Constitution based.




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> copied from the Hamadryad:
> Wild Empathy (Ex): This power works like the druid’s wild empathy class feature, except that the actaeon has a +X racial bonus on the check (as well as a +2 synergy bonus for Handle Animal).




We should investigate how the racial bonus is determined.  Is there a correlation to an ability score or something?


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## BOZ (Jul 14, 2005)

i have no idea - i basically copied that wild empathy from the dryad.  i think there is at least one other critter in the MM that has it, but can't think of it off the top of my head.


Borrowing from the iron golem a bit for the format, and to keep it more like the original write-up:
Breath Weapon (Su): 10-foot cube, cloud of warm greenish mist lasting X rounds, once every 24 hours, baleful polymorph (caster level 11th, forest animals only), Fortitude DC 17 reduces duration to 24 hours. The save DC is Constitution-based.

i do like the 24-hour duration on a success.  this is the actaeon's way of dealing with foes quickly and decisively.  due to it's nature, it wouldn't kill the animals, just leave them to be little animals of the forest.  if they make the save and want to come back later (or if some kind soul reverses the transformation), maybe they will think twice about screwing with the actaeon.    unless the whole party is gathered together tightly in a 4-square area, it's not likely to TPK.


----------



## Shade (Jul 14, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i have no idea - i basically copied that wild empathy from the dryad.  i think there is at least one other critter in the MM that has it, but can't think of it off the top of my head.




Dryad, nymph, nixie and unicorn all have it, and all have a +6 racial bonus.  Those that have Handle Animal ranks don't have the synergy bonus listed in the ability.  So I suppose +6?




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Borrowing from the iron golem a bit for the format, and to keep it more like the original write-up:
> Breath Weapon (Su): 10-foot cube, cloud of warm greenish mist lasting X rounds, once every 24 hours, baleful polymorph (caster level 11th, forest animals only), Fortitude DC 17 reduces duration to 24 hours. The save DC is Constitution-based.
> 
> i do like the 24-hour duration on a success.  this is the actaeon's way of dealing with foes quickly and decisively.  due to it's nature, it wouldn't kill the animals, just leave them to be little animals of the forest.  if they make the save and want to come back later (or if some kind soul reverses the transformation), maybe they will think twice about screwing with the actaeon.    unless the whole party is gathered together tightly in a 4-square area, it's not likely to TPK.




True, but it is likely to TPFK (total party fun kill).   :\ 

I suppose since it can only use it once per day, its chances of getting the whole party are indeed slim.  We'll definitely have to ramp the CR to account for this instant-party-negation ability, though.


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## GrayLinnorm (Jul 14, 2005)

I'm glad you used my version of the breath weapon! Sorry if it wasn't worded better; I haven't done as many conversions as you.  Shade put the (forest creatures only) part better than I did.  And I deliberately left off the part about the change lasting 24 hours on a successful save because I agree with Shade on this one, for the reasons he mentioned (I mentioned it too on my post), and because all or nothing effects seem to be the norm in 3e.


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## BOZ (Jul 14, 2005)

well, if you want to make the save all or nothing, how about if we increase the number of times per day then?

is the 10-foot cube cloud better than the cone?


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2005)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> I'm glad you used my version of the breath weapon! Sorry if it wasn't worded better; I haven't done as many conversions as you.  Shade put the (forest creatures only) part better than I did.  And I deliberately left off the part about the change lasting 24 hours on a successful save because I agree with Shade on this one, for the reasons he mentioned (I mentioned it too on my post), and because all or nothing effects seem to be the norm in 3e.




You did fine!  We just have done so many conversions that extra little bits come to mind.  Keep up the good work!

Sorry I repeated what you already covered in an earlier post..this thread is moving fast, so it already scrolled back a page for me.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> well, if you want to make the save all or nothing, how about if we increase the number of times per day then?
> 
> is the 10-foot cube cloud better than the cone?




I like the cube better, and 3/day would seem reasonable.


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## BOZ (Jul 14, 2005)

Breath Weapon (Su): 10-foot cube, cloud of warm greenish mist lasting X rounds, three times per day, baleful polymorph (caster level 11th, forest animals only), Fortitude DC 17 negates. The save DC is Constitution-based.

now, if he can do it three times per day, what's to stop him from doing it in three consecutive rouns?    i know some creatures have a daily limit, as well as being able to do it only once every 3 rounds or so.


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Breath Weapon (Su): 10-foot cube, cloud of warm greenish mist lasting X rounds, three times per day, baleful polymorph (caster level 11th, forest animals only), Fortitude DC 17 negates. The save DC is Constitution-based.
> 
> now, if he can do it three times per day, what's to stop him from doing it in three consecutive rouns?    i know some creatures have a daily limit, as well as being able to do it only once every 3 rounds or so.




His hit points?    

In all seriousness, let him do three rounds in a row.  Since he has to be so close, he might take quite a beating in the meantime.  Plus, after the first one, the wind walls and readied gusts of winds are gonna come out.


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## BOZ (Jul 15, 2005)

OK then, posting what i have so far...


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## GrayLinnorm (Jul 15, 2005)

I just checked it out.  Since we're making the actaeon fey, shouldn't it get damage reduction?


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## BOZ (Jul 15, 2005)

good point!  5/cold iron then?


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## Mortis (Jul 15, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Breath Weapon (Su): 10-foot cube, cloud of warm greenish mist lasting X rounds, three times per day, baleful polymorph (caster level 11th, forest animals only), Fortitude DC 17 negates. The save DC is Constitution-based.




Lasts 1d3+Con Mod in rounds?



> Now, if he can do it three times per day, what's to stop him from doing it in three consecutive rounds?  i know some creatures have a daily limit, as well as being able to do it only once every 3 rounds or so.




I have no problem (other than the fact I prefer the 1/day with 24 hours for a fail - but that's just the way I play  )with it using it's breath weapon for three consecutive rounds. As Shade says, the actaeon has to get up close to use it's breath weapon.

I'ld also vote for 10 ft. cube.



> 5/cold iron then




That's fine, maybe it will get to use it's three breath attacks.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Dryad, nymph, nixie and unicorn all have it, and all have a +6 racial bonus. Those that have Handle Animal ranks don't have the synergy bonus listed in the ability. So I suppose +6?




+6 seems like a reasonable bonus.

Regards,
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2005)

5/cold iron works for me too.


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## BOZ (Jul 15, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Lasts 1d3+Con Mod in rounds?




well, the iron golem's cloud lasts for only 1 round, so do we want this want to last 3-5 rounds?


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2005)

I'd prefer 3, but honestly, it shouldn't make much difference because most characters will avoid it on subsequent rounds.


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## BOZ (Jul 15, 2005)

or, as you said before, bring out the gust of wind spells.  

updating.


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2005)

A centaur is about 7 feet tall and weighs about 2,100 pounds.  Since an elk is slightly lighter than a horse, how about 1,800 pounds?

For skills entry, I'd go with the following: 

+8 bonus to Hide and Move Silently in forests, +4 bonus to Knowledge (nature) and Survival.


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## BOZ (Jul 15, 2005)

ahem:

_This amazingly tall, powerfully built humanoid has the head, antler rack, and lower legs of an elk.  The rest of its body is humanlike, though covered in shaggy brown fur._

The actaeon is a solitary protector and hero of the woodlands and the creatures that live there.  It is sometimes referred to as an "elk centaur," although in reality its appearance has more in common with that of a minotaur than a centaur.

i'll try to post a picture tonight, but the nickname is misleading and they are not  quadrupeds.


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2005)

Whoa!  Talk about confusion.    

We might want to revisit its stats, then, as I (and possibly others) based them off the centaur.

Egads.


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## BOZ (Jul 15, 2005)

yeah, i wish they had not put the "elk centaur" part in there, as the pictures and description are conflicting with the idea of a centaur.  a Google search didn't pick up the mystaran actaeon, just mostly mythological images, which usually depict a two-legged creature with antlers.  (if you try it yourself, make sure you have safe search on - i don't want to imagine how many "furry art" pictures you'd see otherwise!)

any changes thusly you recommend will be retroactively implemented.


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2005)

I suppose not much actually has to change, since they are still Large.

I'd cut the speed back to 30 feet.

Ability scores don't have to change, but I could see a higher Dex now.


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## BOZ (Jul 16, 2005)

yep, bipeds:


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## BOZ (Jul 16, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'd cut the speed back to 30 feet.
> 
> Ability scores don't have to change, but I could see a higher Dex now.




they were faster than humans in the first place, so i think 40 is still good.  how high would you want to raise the Dex?


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2005)

40 feet is fine, then.

I'd go Dex 17-19 to go along with its "alacrity" and stealth...it just sounds dextrous.


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## BOZ (Jul 16, 2005)

updating then...


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2005)

CR 9?  It seems about comparable to a vrock, or slightly worse.


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## BOZ (Jul 16, 2005)

9, wow, that's some tough fey!


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2005)

Yeah, but he can't touch the CR 14 ragewalker or the CR 18 siabrie!


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## BOZ (Jul 18, 2005)

we gave another tough fey, the 8-HD shatjan, a CR of 5.  so yeah, i guess 9 would work for the 11-HD actaeon.


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2005)

Duh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh Shatjan!    

Sorry, my inner Beavis took over for a minute there.

What's left on this fella?


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## BOZ (Jul 18, 2005)

skill ranks, LA, weight, "as characters".


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2005)

Skill ranks:  Concentration +10, Handle Animal +12, Hide +14*, Intimidate +12, Knowledge (nature) +12, Listen +7, Move Silently +10*, Search +7, Spot +7, Survival +5?

LA:  +5

+1 natural armor
+1 reach
+1 damage reduction
+1 unbalanced ability scores
+1 breath weapon

Weight:  550 pounds?

Do you want the full-blown "Actaeons as Characters" section, or the truncated version?


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## BOZ (Jul 18, 2005)

you know, i can't see a whole bunch of people wanting to play an ECL 16 creature.    a shorter version should do the job.


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2005)

Actaeons Characters

Most actaeons are druids, rangers, or barbarians.  An actaeon cleric has access to two of the following domains: Animal, Knowledge, Plant, or Protection.


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## BOZ (Jul 18, 2005)

updating - how's he looking now?


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2005)

I think he's done.  I'd wait for response from Mortis and GrayLinnorm before calling it complete, though.


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## BOZ (Jul 18, 2005)

sure, let's see how the fans like it.


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## GrayLinnorm (Jul 19, 2005)

Except for an extra question mark in the Breath Weapon section, it looks done to me.


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## Mortis (Jul 19, 2005)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> Except for an extra question mark in the Breath Weapon section, it looks done to me.




I agree - it's looking good except for the duration of the breath attack. Are we going for a fixed or variable duration? 3 rounds seems fine, characters will just avoid the area after the first round anyway.   

Regards,
Mortis


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## BOZ (Jul 24, 2005)

You have a good point.  No one will walk into the cloud two rounds later, unless they have no Int score or are blind.    I'll make it a one-round effect, like the iron golem I patterned it after.


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## Mortis (Jul 27, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> You have a good point. No one will walk into the cloud two rounds later, unless they have no Int score or are blind.  I'll make it a one-round effect, like the iron golem I patterned it after.



Quite right!   I suppose a duration of longer than 1 round would only be effective in a confined space or if the target is held/paralyzed etc (in which case the cloud could be the least of their problems  )

Regards,
Mortis


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## BOZ (Jul 30, 2005)

right.    requests?  here are a few examples i posted before...



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> In an effort to get this thread moving again, I started going through the 2E Mystara MC.  I wrote up brief descriptions of creatures I'd like to convert for those who are unfamiliar with them:
> 
> Agarat: 4 HD, CE - ghoul-like undead, has energy draining scream
> 
> ...


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## GrayLinnorm (Jul 30, 2005)

It's not on the list given, but I'd like to see the ebon tiger converted.


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## BOZ (Aug 1, 2005)

i never said we were limited to that list.


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## Mortis (Aug 1, 2005)

How about the... [drum roll] draeden... [/drum roll]

Sorry only joking.  

Seriously, though, how about the Faedorne, Living Statues, or Sollux (Sun Brother)

or if we do pick one from the list the Baldandar.

Regards,
Mortis


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## Shade (Aug 1, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> How about the... [drum roll] draeden... [/drum roll]




Have a good chuckle, but the draeden is on my short list of dream conversions.    

The helion is another one I'd like to tackle.  Same goes for the hydrax.  And the undine.  And...


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## BOZ (Aug 2, 2005)

so, 8 requests with only one vote each, should i roll a 1d8 or does anyone want to second any of these nominations?  

(i wasn't counting the draeden BTW, heh)


----------



## Shade (Aug 2, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> so, 8 requests with only one vote each, should i roll a 1d8 or does anyone want to second any of these nominations?
> 
> (i wasn't counting the draeden BTW, heh)




Well, _technically_ the draeden had two votes.    

Roll a d8...let fate decide.


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## Mortis (Aug 2, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Well, _technically_ the draeden had two votes.
> 
> Roll a d8...let fate decide.



So does that make the draeden 1-2 on a d10?  

The Living Statues are a bit of a cheat as well, there's 3 or 4 different ones.

Regards,
Mortis


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## BOZ (Aug 3, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Roll a d8...let fate decide.




so shall it be done.


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## BOZ (Aug 11, 2005)

finally remembered to get my d8.  

the winnar is...  "2"!  what book(s) can i find the faedorne in then?


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## GrayLinnorm (Aug 11, 2005)

The faedorne is in (how appropriate) Creature Catalog (both editions).

Maybe we should do the silver warrior (the faedorne's assistant) while we're at it.


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## BOZ (Aug 12, 2005)

sure, i guess that works.    were they in any modules or sourcebooks or anything first?


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## Mortis (Aug 12, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> sure, i guess that works.  were they in any modules or sourcebooks or anything first?



The only reference I could find is below.

Regards,
Mortis

*O2: Blade of Vengeance
*  TSR No.: 9108
  Status: Out of print
  Setting: D&D Expert, Mystara
  Character: 1 elf of level 7
  Author: Jim Bambra
  Year: 1984
  Price: $6.00
  What you get: 28 page booklet and cover with maps
  Summary: When Erystelle of Dornerhill returns home after many
      years spent adventuring, he finds out that his village has
      been burnt to ashes, his family slain and the only responsible
      for this misdeed is an ancient red dragon named Khordarg.
      Erystelle is determined to exact his vengeance and quest for
      the fabled sword Scorbane, which will give him a chance to
      defeat Khordarg in a one-to-one confrontation...
  New magical items: Sword Scorbane
  New monsters: Faedorne, Flitterings, Shargug, Silver Warrior.
  Notes: This adventure is set in the Emerlas (Alfheim) and introduces 
      the magical land of the Faedorne, the Glittering Isle that 
      floats above the skies of Alfheim (maybe part of the Faerie Realm).
  Contributed by: Marco Dalmonte


----------



## BOZ (Aug 12, 2005)

ah, ok, that's the same place i found the flitterlings.


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## derek_cleric (Aug 12, 2005)

*They're different.*



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> is that the same creature as from the old basic D&D books?  because if not, i can still convert it as a separate creature.




The basic DnD Bhut is different from the FF Bhut.  Please do convert it.  They can be found in module X4, The Master of the Desert Nomads and I think in the Creature Catalog (but don't hold me to the CC).

--Ray.


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## Mortis (Aug 16, 2005)

Hi guys,

Check out this thread. Looks like paizo may be planning a Mystara focused issue of Dragon.

Regards,
Mortis


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## Shade (Aug 16, 2005)

Interesting!

I wonder if this is for the now-annual Campaign Classics issue?


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## BOZ (Aug 17, 2005)

cool, putting a bunch of work into something hoping they do indeed want some monster articles.    will post tonight or tomorrow morning!


----------



## Mortis (Oct 6, 2005)

In a effort to kick-start the thread... 

Regards,
Mortis

DMR2 - Creature Catalog

Page 38
Faedorne

Armor Class: 6
Hit Dice: 9** (M)
Move: 120' (40')
Attacks: 2 daggers
Damage: 1d4/1d4
No. Appearing: 0(1)
Save As: Elf 10
Morale: 12 (8)
Treasure Type: G
Intelligence: 19
Alignment: Neutral
XP Value: 2,300

Monster Type: Enchanted Humanoid (Very Rare)
Faedornae are female creatures of great beauty. These rare, eldritch creatures live on strange timeless islands which float high above the world. These islands are only visible at night and are indistinguishable from other points of light (or stars) in the night skies. To the few creatures who have traveled there and returned, these "stars" are known as Shining Isles. On their Shining Isles, faedornae gather all manner of neutrally aligned creatures around them, particularly ones who have shown great courage.
Faedornae are mistresses of illusion, able to create illusions equivalent to a phantasmal force spell at will, even when performing other actions. Any illusion created by a faedorne on a Shining Isle is very difficult to disbelieve, and all attempts to do so are made with a -5 penalty to the saving throw vs. spells. Three times a day, a faedorne is able to use a clairvoyance spell to view the land below her Shining Isle. In addition, a faedorne has the spellcasting abilities of a 12th level magic-user, as well as being able to summon 1d6 silver warriors (page 94) at will.
Faedornae embody many elvish ideals, but rarely make their presence known, even to elves. They prefer to guide subtly rather than to interfere directly in elven affairs. However, they have been known to favor certain elves and provide them with aid in times of danger. To those they aid, they will usually send 1d6 silver warriors for the duration of one battle or one quest. When it does not seem appropriate to send silver warriors, faedornae may create the illusion of a vision containing some clue or piece of advice in a mirror or pool of clear water, or they may call in favors from other acquaintances and friends who could provide aid to a favored elf.
Faedornae are reluctant to leave their Shining Isles and would only do so in the direst emergency. A faedorne's morale drops to 8 when not on her Shining Isle.
Terrain: Aerial, Other Plane.


Page 94
Silver Warrior

Armor Class: 2 (-2)
Hit Dice: 7*(M)
Move: 120' (40')
Attacks: 1 sword +1
Damage: 1d8+1
No. Appearing: 0 (1d6)
Save As: Fighter 7
Morale: 12
Treasure Type: Nil
Intelligence: 9
Alignment: Neutral
XP Value: 850

Monster Type: Enchanted Humanoid (Very Rare)
Silver warriors exist only on the Shining Isle of the faedornae (see page 38), except when sent to aid a favored elf by a faedorne. They are the guardians of the isles and will fight to the death to defend them. They are always dressed in silver plate mail armor and carry magical silver swords +1. They appear very similar to elves; they are the same size as elves and wearing skillfully crafted armor of elfin design.
In combat, silver warriors are able to become invisible and can remain invisible even when attacking. They are known to be silver only through the reports of those elves lucky enough to own items allowing them to see the invisible. Unless detected by magical means, they always gain initiative on the first round of combat. On successive rounds, initiative is determined normally. All attack rolls against an unseen silver warrior are at -4 penalty. A silver warrior slain in combat will dissolve into the substance of a Shining Isle, as will its weapon and armor.
Terrain: Aerial, Other Plane.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 6, 2005)

cool thank you, that saves me some trouble with the scanner.  

we will start work on this conversion soon... i want to get the vagabond and Ma Yuan conversions finished up before starting any new ones, as they have been hanging since just about forever.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 6, 2005)

That's OK Boz, whenever you're ready.  The Vagabond and Ma Yuan are coming along nicely. 

One thing to note, however with the Faedorne is its listed Intelligence of 19. I was under the impression that 18 was the maximum for non-immmortal level creatures in BD&D. It may be a misprint but I suppose under 3.5 it doesn't really matter. 

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Oct 11, 2005)

probably not.  

some preliminary stats for the faedorne:

*Faedorne*
Medium Fey? Outsider? Humanoid?
Hit Dice: 9d6+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+X
Attack: Dagger +X melee (1d4+17/19-20)
Full Attack: 2 daggers +X melee (1d4+X/19-20)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: spells (12th level caster), illusion, summon silver warrior
Special Qualities: clairvoyance, morale bonus
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 19, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: 4

Environment: X
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: X
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +X

COMBAT

Originally found in module O2 ? Blade of Vengeance (1984, Jim Bambra), AC9 - Creature Catalogue (1986), and DMR2 - Creature Catalog (1993).


----------



## Mortis (Oct 11, 2005)

A few comments. 


			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Fey? Outsider? Humanoid?



I see them as being Fey, or as a remote possiblity Outsider.



> Speed: 40 ft (8 squares)



I don't think you can use the Move value unaltered. IIRC the base speed for humans was 40 feet in BD&D (I must check that out).

Special Attacks: 
spells (12th level caster) *Sorcerer? or Illusionist?*
illusion *+5? Bonus to Save DC? Bonus to Concentration checks to maintain?*
summon silver warrior - "...they will usually send 1d6 silver warriors for the duration of one battle or *one quest*..." *Is this too powerful?*

Special Qualities: 
clairvoyance
morale bonus *Bonus to attack/damage, saves vs fear?*

Abilities: Str 10-12, Dex 15-17, Con 9-11, Int 19, Wis 15-19, Cha 16-20
Skill: *Concentration, Diplomacy, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Spellcraft, Spot, Use Magical Device* Some of?, All?, Others?
Feats: 4 *Weapon Finesse?, Spell Focus (conjuration)?, Augment Summoning?, Metamagic feats?*

Regards,
Mortis


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## BOZ (Oct 11, 2005)

as to the movement, i think some time ago, we figured out that the second number in parenthesis translated to be roughly equal to 3E movements, give or take a little.  if you have some insight into that being wrong, please share.    not all basic D&D critters had 2E conversions that we can look at for comparison on the easy speed conversion chart...


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## Mortis (Oct 11, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> we figured out that the second number in parenthesis translated to be roughly equal to 3E movements, give or take a little.



It's certainly the easiest way and shouldn't make much difference in the long run, but I'll still check what the base human/elf etc speed was in the Rules Cyclopedia when I get home.

I hope I'm right, otherwise, it's a large helping of humble pie.   

Regards,
Mortis


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## BOZ (Oct 11, 2005)

OK, i'll leave that up to you then.


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## Shade (Oct 11, 2005)

Add another vote for fey.    

I think these critters should cast spells as wizards, since they are somewhat elf-like, and elves' favored class is wizard.


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## BOZ (Oct 11, 2005)

fey is unanimous then.    i was also thinking Outsider (Native), but fey is just fine.  they are *very* elf-like, and i agree with wizard being the preferred class.


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## Shade (Oct 11, 2005)

I like the following ability scores:

Str 11, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 19, Wis 17, Cha 20


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## Mortis (Oct 12, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, i'll leave that up to you then.




Right then, it appears I was right... and wrong!   

Yes the standard movement for humans was 120' (40'), but the rounds were 10 seconds long. So 'technically' the 3.5e movement conversion should be 60% (24 ft.) of the BD&D rate. The standard 3.5e rate of 30 ft. is, obviously, 75% of the BD&D rate so we have a number of options.


The unmodifed BD&D rate - The easiest option
60% of the BD&D rate - The most 'accurate' option
75% of the BD&D rate - The 'official' option


```
[U]Other movement rates[/U]
(for comparison)
[B]Creature      BD&D      3.5e[/B]
Basilisk       20'       20'
Centaur        60'       50'
Chimera        40'       30'
(flying)       60'       50'
Ghoul          30'       30'
Minotaur       40'       30'
Owlbear        40'       30'
Purple Worm    20'       20'
```

So what do you think?

Regards,
Mortis


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## Mortis (Oct 12, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I like the following ability scores:
> 
> Str 11, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 19, Wis 17, Cha 20



They work for me too, they're all in the ranges I was thinking of.   

Anyone else?

Regards,
Mortis


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## BOZ (Oct 12, 2005)

if they moved at the same rate as humans, then we might as well keep them at human speed.  that's the easiest answer.


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> They work for me too, they're all in the ranges I was thinking of.




They should be....I picked 'em from your suggested ranges.


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## Mortis (Oct 12, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I think these critters should cast spells as wizards, since they are somewhat elf-like, and elves' favored class is wizard.



I would of gone for sorcerer personally, I can't imagine them with a spellbook.   

Regards,
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I would of gone for sorcerer personally, I can't imagine them with a spellbook.




I just recommended wizard based on the "elf-like" concept, but I'm not opposed to sorcerer.


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## BOZ (Oct 12, 2005)

same here.  i don't see why they wouldn't use spellbooks, if elves do.


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> illusion *+5? Bonus to Save DC? Bonus to Concentration checks to maintain?*






> Faedornae are mistresses of iluusion, able to create illusions equivalent to a phantasmal force spell at will, even when performing other actions. Any illusion created by a faedorne on a Shining Isle is very difficult to disbelieve, and all attempts to do so are made with a -5 penalty to the saving throw vs. spells. Three times a day, a faedorne is able to use a clairvoyance spell to view the land below her Shining Isle.




Mistress of Illusion (Ex):  Faedornae have a +5 racial bonus on the save DCs of all illusion spells they cast while on their Shining Isle.

Phantasmal force = silent image

Spell-Like Abilities:  At will--silent image (quickened, DC X);  3/day--clairaudience/clairvoyance.  Caster level Xth.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Skill: *Concentration, Diplomacy, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Spellcraft, Spot, Use Magical Device* Some of?, All?, Others?




They get 10 at 12 ranks each.  We could put 12 ranks into each of the skills you suggested, and add one more at 12 ranks...Knowledge (history) perhaps?



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Feats: 4 *Weapon Finesse?, Spell Focus (conjuration)?, Augment Summoning?, Metamagic feats?*




I'd skip Finesse as they seem more likely to wield magic than melee attacks.  Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (illusion) seems a given, and maybe a few metamagic feats like you suggested.


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## Mortis (Oct 13, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> They get 10 at 12 ranks each.  We could put 12 ranks into each of the skills you suggested, and add one more at 12 ranks...Knowledge (history) perhaps?



Works for me. 



> I'd skip Finesse as they seem more likely to wield magic than melee attacks.  Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (illusion) seems a given, and maybe a few metamagic feats like you suggested.




I always mention Finesse even for non-combatants if their Dex warrants it! 

How about Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (illusion), Spell Focus (conjuration), and Augment Summoning? Augment Summoning will certainly benefit those Silver Warriors  and Spell Focus (conjuration) is a prereq. If we go down the metamagic feat route how about Silent Spell and/or Still Spell?

Regards,
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I always mention Finesse even for non-combatants if their Dex warrants it!




I tend to gravitate towards it as soon as I see a higher Dex that Str score.    



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> How about Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (illusion), Spell Focus (conjuration), and Augment Summoning? Augment Summoning will certainly benefit those Silver Warriors  and Spell Focus (conjuration) is a prereq. If we go down the metamagic feat route how about Silent Spell and/or Still Spell?




Any of those options sound good.  

Although they are fey, should we give them some elf traits (bonus on skills, free secret door check, weapon proficiencies, etc.)?


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2005)

Re-reading the description, I noticed that they fight with two daggers.  In that case, I think we need to add Two-Weapon Fighting, maybe as a bonus feat.  And Weapon Finesse suddenly became interesting again (sorry for getting us off that track in the first place).

Taking all that into account, how's this for a feats list?

Augment Summoning (B), Spell Focus (illusion), Greater Spell Focus (illusion), Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse.


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## Mortis (Oct 14, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Augment Summoning (B), Spell Focus (illusion), Greater Spell Focus (illusion), Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse.



Yes, I like having Augment Summoning as a bonus feat, as it means we don't need Spell Focus (conjuration).

Or we could write the augment summoning benefits into the Summon Silver Warrior ability so that it only works on Silver Warriors, not on anything else the faedornae may summon.

I vote for option 2. Comments?

Regards,
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2005)

Actually, option #2 is a much more elegant solution, so I vote that way as well.


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## BOZ (Oct 14, 2005)

i'm going to help on this one later today.  sorry to ignore it, but i knew i could get the tybor and nawidnehr done a lot quicker, so i focused on those.


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## Mortis (Oct 14, 2005)

BOZ

in your preliminary stats you gave an Attack line of
Attack: Dagger +X melee (1d4+17/19-20)

I presume that +17 should be +X as in the Full Attack line. 
If so, it's a strange typo.   

Regards,
Mortis


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## BOZ (Oct 14, 2005)

actually, it's a bad cut 'n paste hack job.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 17, 2005)

Sorry for not responding sooner; been busy as usual.

To do what Shade is suggesting, they will need the Quicken Spell-Like Ability (silent image) feat.

I am wondering if, even though they are in whatever passes for outer space (at least the upper atmosphere), the Shining Isle are not technically extraplanar?  Sort of like a plane within a plane?



> Faedornae are reluctant to leave their Shining Isles and would only do so in the direst emergency. A faedorne's morale drops to 8 when not on her Shining Isle.




rather than a penalty for leaving the Isle, I would make that a bonus when they are on the Isle.  Would a +4 situational morale bonus to Will saves suffice?


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> To do what Shade is suggesting, they will need the Quicken Spell-Like Ability (silent image) feat.




Not necessarily.  I've seen other critters who have a spell-like ability that is treated as metamagically-enhanced without possessing the relevant feat.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I am wondering if, even though they are in whatever passes for outer space (at least the upper atmosphere), the Shining Isle are not technically extraplanar?  Sort of like a plane within a plane?




This is one of the biggest gray areas of 3E.  To the best of my knowledge, as long as they are within the same Material Plane (but even on a different planet), they are on the same plane.  If they were from an alternate Material Plane, they'd be extraplanar.   So probably not extraplanar, just like mooncalves and other critters "from the moon" are not extraplanar.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> rather than a penalty for leaving the Isle, I would make that a bonus when they are on the Isle.  Would a +4 situational morale bonus to Will saves suffice?




That works for me.


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## BOZ (Oct 17, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Not necessarily. I've seen other critters who have a spell-like ability that is treated as metamagically-enhanced without possessing the relevant feat.




Meh?  Really, where?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> This is one of the biggest gray areas of 3E. To the best of my knowledge, as long as they are within the same Material Plane (but even on a different planet), they are on the same plane. If they were from an alternate Material Plane, they'd be extraplanar. So probably not extraplanar, just like mooncalves and other critters "from the moon" are not extraplanar.




Could another dimension or plane be visible from another plane?  Say that you walk 5 feet in one direction and you are on another plane; any rules that apply to this plane are now effective, even though it did not look like you went anywhere.  

Just a thought.  I'm going to have to look through the module they originally appeared in to get some perspective on these "Shining Isles".

Resolve (Ex): A faedorne has a +4 morale bonus to Will saves while on its Shining Isle.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Meh?  Really, where?




<sigh> I was afraid you'd ask that.      So far my attempts to locate it have been futile.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Could another dimension or plane be visible from another plane?  Say that you walk 5 feet in one direction and you are on another plane; any rules that apply to this plane are now effective, even though it did not look like you went anywhere.




Hell yeah!        Just a few examples...the ethereal sees into the Material, the elemental planes blur together, etc.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Resolve (Ex): A faedorne has a +4 morale bonus to Will saves while on its Shining Isle.




That should work.


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## BOZ (Oct 17, 2005)

haha, caught you!    while you look for that, i will try to find some time to look at the old module for hints.


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## Knight Otu (Oct 17, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Meh?  Really, where?



I believe the Aspect of Vecna in the MiniHB has a metamagigiced magic missile SL. I'll check to see if it has the appropriste feat.

Yep, empowered magic missile at will, without the empower spell feat.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

Thanks for having my back, Knight.


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## BOZ (Oct 17, 2005)

yeah, but that book is generally out of whack (IMO), so i don't want to go on that alone.  if you can find another occurance in another book (preferrably more recent), i will go with that.

in the meantime, i found what i was looking for:

***warning, spoilers below*** if you were ever planning on playing in O2 Blade of Vengeance!


(Erystelle is the pre-made PC that comes with this one-player module.)

Page 8: The overall aim of this part of the adventure is for Erystelle to reach THE SHINING ISLE (page 20) by performing the ritual at the Shattered Pillars (area 20). In order to do so, Erystelle needs to know:

•	That the pillars exist and where they can be found.  Erystelle may see the pillars at a distance (area 19), and the pixies (area 8) will also give a clue as to their location. The Cave of Visions (area 11) will show Erystelle what the pillars look like and, if the elf is able to give a description, the treants (area 14) will give directions to them.
•	The rhyme of Galannor. The shuargugh (area 5) living near Oakendale (area 4) will tell Erystelle the rhyme. The burned book in the hermit's home (area 6) also contains part of it.
•	How to reach the Shining Isle. To reach the Shining Isle, Erystelle has to be at the Shattered Pillars at night and facing the pool of water. By wearing a wreath of starblooms (see below) and speaking the rhyme of Galannor, Erystelle will summon the silver ship and be taken to the Isle. The book in the hermit's cave (area 6) will give Erystelle some information, and the treants (area 14) and pixies (area 8) will provide more clues.

Page 20: The Shining Isle is home to Karelia, the faedorne of the Emerlas (see NEW MONSTERS p28). It is here that Galannor Nightflame was taken after his battle with Gorkalk. The Isle floats in the sky over the Emerlas and is only visible at night when it appears as a star. The Isle is enchanted and neither dispel magic, fly, nor levitate spells will function there unless cast by a creature native to the Isle. Speaking the Rhyme of Galannor at the Shattered Pillars (area 20) while wearing a wreath of Starblooms summons the silver ship that will take Erystelle to the Shining Isle. One the Shining Isle, two tests await Erystelle. Once passed, Erystelle will be given Galannor's sentient sword and other magical items by Karelia.

Page 21-22: 
The Silver Ship
After Erystelle has performed the ceremony at the Shattered Pillars, the DM should read the following description:

"As you finish speaking, the pillars glow white and stars shoot up into the sky. The pillars fade, losing their radiance and all goes still. From the direction of the river comes a gentle lapping sound and a clear blue light bobs toward you. Soon a high-prowed silver boat appears, its bow cutting through the mist like a knife, while a blue stone set high in the prow bathes the pillars in its glow. Its deep blue sail comes into view bearing a shining silver moon against a background of twinkling stars. The ship turns and draws up to the river bank. The mist clings to its sides and mast making it difficult to see if anyone is aboard."

The silver ship is 30 feet long and has a single-masted sail.  It Erystelle does not board, it will remain until dawn and then slide back into the mist. If the elf walks towards the ship, Erystelle will suddenly be teleported aboard it. Only Erystelle will be transported, and any companions will have to wait by the pillars for the elf to return.

Stars on the Water
The ship contains no items of interest. A magical barrier surrounds the ship and prevents Erystelle from leaving it during the voyage.

"You find yourself standing in the prow of the magnificent ship gliding smoothly through the mist. The haze slowly clears to reveal the heavens above and the reflection of stars on the water. Strangely, the ship's prow does not part the water and the dock is unnaturally steady underfoot.

A bright object appears in the water ahead of you and grows into a bright multi-hued comet trailing millions of stars in its wake. In wonder, you watch it fly by with the realisation that you are sailing no normal river. The stars beneath your ship are indeed stars!"

The Silver Shore
"In front, a pale shimmering disc gradually grows larger; around it swirl clusters of stars in long lazy arcs. The disc continues to grow and the ship's prow cuts into it. Mist swirls around you and only the blue stone is visible. Slowly the mists fall behind, revealing a beach of golden sand ahead, washed by crystal blue waves. Across the beach, the rich smell of flowers and trees floats to you from a lush green wood."

Erystelle has arrive on the Shining Isle where it is daytime. The silver hip will beach itself and wait until Erystelle fulfills the quest here. Once beached, the magical barrier around the ship is lowered, and Erystelle will be able to leave the ship.

S1. The Silver Path
When Erystelle arrives, a magical silver path will appear, leading from the ship to the silver warrior (area S2):

"The sun dances on a reflection in the woods. A wave of silver breaks through the trees. Once clear of the wood, the wave falls and flows towards you leaving a silver pathway in its wake."

The path is solid and leads to the silver warrior (see below). A magical wall of force, similar to the one surrounding the silver ship, prevents Erystelle from leaving the path.

S2. The Silver Warrior

"Following the silver path you are soon walking through the woods. Without warning the path ahead twists and bulges, and a creature clad in silver armour springs up out of it. In a clear voice it says: "Erystelle! You have come seeking the treasure of Galannor. To prove yourself worthy you must first defeat me."

The creature rapidly fades from view leaving only the sound of its approaching footsteps."

The silver warrior has become invisible and is closing to attack. Erystelle has 1 round in which to act before it attacks. A detect invisibility spell will show where the silver warrior is. In the following round the silver warrior will automatically gain initiative and attack, unless detected. The silver warrior is able to attack and remain invisible; all to hit rolls are at a -4 penalty unless Erystelle has detected it by magical means. In subsequent rounds initiative should be rolled normally. If the warrior is defeated, both it and its gear will melt into the silver path.

(stat block omitted)

If defeated by the warrior, Erystelle will not be killed, but given a second chance. Erystelle will be returned to the Shattered Pillars (area 20) with only one hit point remaining.

S3. Bridge of Change

"The shining path you have been following comes to an abrupt end between two silver pillars, whose surfaces are alive with intricate tracings of iridescent golden threads. A bottomless gulf yawns at your feet just a step beyond the towering columns. The chasm stretches away to either side, for as far as you can see, and as you peer downwards you see only the sheer rock walls – for the gulf is seemingly bottomless. On the far side you can make out another pair of pillars glinting in the rays of the sun."

The pillars are 50 feet tall and are the supports of an invisible suspension bridge spanning the 60-foot-wide chasm. The chasm is bottomless and should Erystelle fall into it, the elf will die. The walls of the chasm are smooth and sheer and cannot be climbed.

To cross the gulf Erystelle must first discover the invisible bridge (by use of detect invisibility, detect magic spells or by feeling for it). However, the bridge will always point Erystelle towards the start when the middle is reached. This will happen so quickly and smoothly that Erystelle will not notice it. The only way to cross the bridge is to walk to the middle then walk backwards to the other side. If the player is having difficult working this out, the DM should make an intelligence check for Erystelle (see page 3) and, if this is successful, provide the player with a few hints.

S4. The Silver Glade.
The magical items of Galannor are watched over here by Karelia the faedorne:

"The silver pathway leads into a grove dominated by a tall silver tree. The sunlight dances on its leaves reflecting a dazzling array of colours.  In front of the tree stands a woman no less impressive than the tree itself. She wears a golden dress, and a silver headband set with a blue stone adorns her golden hair. In a soft yet strong voice she speaks, "Welcome Erystelle, as the successor to Galannor Nightflame you have won the right to claim what is yours." She turns and waves her hand towards the tree. Buds appear and bright green fruits rapidly grow from them. In a twinkling they ripen and hang heavy upon the silver boughs. "These were once Galannor's, now they are yours." "

There are five fruits which resemble large red apples 6 inches in diameter. Once plucked, they will grow and split apart to reveal their contents:

#1. A suit of chain mail +3
#2. A shield +2
#3. An elven cloak
#4. A pair of elven boots
#5. 'Scorbane' - sword +2/+4 vs. dragons, triple damage vs. red dragons (full description omitted)

Karelia the faedorne (stat block omitted)
Spells memorised - 
First level: charm person, protection from evil, read languages, shield
Second level: detect evil, detect invisible, ESP, invisibility
Third level: fly, haste, lightning bolt, protection from normal missiles
Fourth level: growth of plants, hallucinatory terrain, polymorph self
Fifth level: conjure elemental, teleport
Sixth level: anti-magic shell

(I could go on, but there is really no further insight into the faedorne or her Shining Isle, and I have already typed more than enough!  )


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

BOZ, say hello to carpal tunnel.  Carpal tunnel, this is BOZ.    

It looks like we have the basis for our typical spells prepared list.


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## BOZ (Oct 17, 2005)

right.

now, the main reason i dug that all up was to see whether the Isle is more of a demiplane or a simply a magical location within the same plane with different physics.  i say the former, just for the sake of rules ease.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

It could be either, so let's err on the side of "easy".


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## Knight Otu (Oct 17, 2005)

For reference, I'd like to note that Rokugan d20 treats the Shadowlands, which a normal person can walk into, as a different plane.


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## BOZ (Oct 17, 2005)

can you give me a little more insight on specifics?  (you don't have to type as much as i did above!)


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## Knight Otu (Oct 17, 2005)

Once I'm convinced I won't find examples of metamagicked SLAs.


----------



## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

I'm not having much luck on that quest, either.


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## Knight Otu (Oct 17, 2005)

Fiend Folio - Flame Snake, Greater - maximized fireball - p 76. Good enough?


----------



## BOZ (Oct 17, 2005)

i'll have a look, but if it's there you got yourself a deal.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

Knight, you are hereby promoted to Duke.


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## Knight Otu (Oct 17, 2005)

But Horacio already made me Count!


----------



## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

Wow, so you are Count Dukoo.


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## Knight Otu (Oct 17, 2005)

Oriental Adventures, p234


> The Shadowlands is an outer plane in Rokugan's cosmology. It is finite, clearly bounded on all sides by the Material Plane lands of Rokugan. Traveling from the Material Plane to the Shadowlands is as simple as traveling over land or across a river--no magic is required.




Oriental Adventures, p52


> The Void disciple cannot sense across planar boundaries. Thus, a Void disciple standing on the Kaiu Wall could not extend her senses into the Shadowlands, even within her line of sight.


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## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

sweetrock, thanks!    so the faedorne (and by extension, silver warrior) will be Extraplanar, with The Shining Isles as its environment.


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## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Fiend Folio - Flame Snake, Greater - maximized fireball - p 76. Good enough?




ok, you win.  it seems to break the rules, but two instances sets a precedent (although, if i'm not mistaken, neither book is fully 3.5e).

so, which four feats were we going to go with, then?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Karelia the faedorne (stat block omitted)
> Spells memorised -
> First level: charm person, protection from evil, read languages, shield
> Second level: detect evil, detect invisible, ESP, invisibility
> ...




if we use her spell list for inspiration, that gives us a start:

Spells: A faedorne can cast arcane spells as a 12th-level wizard. Typical Wizard Spells Prepared (4/5/5/5/4/3/2; save DC 14 + spell level): 
0 – ; 
1st – charm person, comprehend languages, protection from evil, shield; 
2nd – detect thoughts, invisibility, protection from arrows, see invisibility; 
3rd – fly, haste, lightning bolt; 
4th – hallucinatory terrain, polymorph; 
5th – summon monster V, teleport; 
6th – antimagic field. 
The save DCs are Intelligence-based. 

(detect evil and plant growth are divine spells.)


their directly converted AC would be 14.  with only a Dex bonus of +3, they have an AC of 13.  there are three ways we could correct this discrepancy: give then a natural armor of +1, raise the Dex to 18, or lower the AC to 13.

.


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## Shade (Oct 18, 2005)

Feats:  Augment Summoning (B), Spell Focus (illusion), Greater Spell Focus (illusion), Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse.  [Augment Summoning benefits could just be appied to silver warriors, negating the need for the feat].

I vote raise the Dex by 1.

More on spell list later.


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## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

if the feat is bonus, then it's not hurting anything to leave it in there is it?


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## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

Concentration, Diplomacy, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Spellcraft, Spot, Use Magical Device for skills...

how about Diplomacy and Sense Motive as well?  possibly Craft if we can think of an application?


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## Mortis (Oct 18, 2005)

Ok back after a long weekend. 


			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Concentration, Diplomacy, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Spellcraft, Spot, Use Magical Device for skills...
> 
> how about Diplomacy and Sense Motive as well?  possibly Craft if we can think of an application?




I have no problems with adding Diplomacy and Sense Motive.



> their directly converted AC would be 14. with only a Dex bonus of +3, they have an AC of 13. there are three ways we could correct this discrepancy: give then a natural armor of +1, raise the Dex to 18, or lower the AC to 13.



A second vote to raise their Dex to 18! I don't see them as having natural armor.



> if the feat is bonus, then it's not hurting anything to leave it in there is it?



I prefer putting the benefits of Augment Summoning into their Summon Silver Warriors so that it only affected the Silver Warriors.

Regards,
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 18, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Ok back after a long weekend.




Welcome back!



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> I have no problems with adding Diplomacy and Sense Motive.




Ditto.  I'd pass on Craft, though.


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## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I prefer putting the benefits of Augment Summoning into their Summon Silver Warriors so that it only affected the Silver Warriors.




ah, good point!    nixing that feat, then.

posting in homebrews!


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## Shade (Oct 18, 2005)

Filling in the list...

Spells: A faedorne can cast arcane spells as a 12th-level wizard. Typical Wizard Spells Prepared (4/5/5/5/4/3/2; save DC 14 + spell level): 
0 – detect magic, light, ghost sound, read magic; 
1st – charm person, comprehend languages, mage armor, protection from evil, shield; 
2nd – detect thoughts, invisibility, mirror image, protection from arrows, see invisibility; 
3rd – displacement, fly, haste, lightning bolt, major image; 
4th – greater invisibility, hallucinatory terrain, polymorph, rainbow pattern; 
5th – mirage arcanan, summon monster V, teleport; 
6th – antimagic field, permanent image. 
The save DCs are Intelligence-based.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

"Three times a day, a faedorne is able to use a clairvoyance spell to view the land below her Shining Isle. In addition, a faedorne has the spellcasting abilities of a 12th level magic-user, as well as being able to summon 1d6 silver warriors (page 94) at will."

a few issues with the magical abilities. that clairvoyance may need to be a spelled-out ability, since it needs to work across that planar boundary. also, the silver warrior summoning needs a writeup, and the duration had better not be marked in rounds.  perhaps until dismissed?


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> a few issues with the magical abilities. that clairvoyance may need to be a spelled-out ability, since it needs to work across that planar boundary. also, the silver warrior summoning needs a writeup, and the duration had better not be marked in rounds.  perhaps until dismissed?




Yeah, spell out clairvoyance.  Silver warrior duration could be 24 hours and total HD limit, like Zuggy's summon fungi ability.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

good call.    i still don't have my copy of #337 yet though...

the question on the clairvoyance then, would be *how* to spell that out?  just say, has clairvoyance/clairaudience like a 20th level caster, and can scan anything on the Material Plane?


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2005)

How's this?

Superior Clairvoyance (Su):  At will, the faedorne can use a powerful form of clairaudience/clairvoyance, which functions as the spell (caster level 25th), except that the faedorne may use it to view any location on the Material Plane, regardless of her current location.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

nice.  want to add a summon ability, using the format you suggested?  (poor me still doesn't have that issue yet.)


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2005)

Sure.

Summon Silver Warrior (Sp): A faedorne can automatically summon up to X Hit Dice of silver warriors per day to serve her needs. Summoned silver warriors remain for 24 hours, at which point they vanish unless she immediately re-summons them. She can summon any number of silver warriors  at one time as long as the total number of Hit Dice summoned does not exceed her maximum. Silver warriors summoned by a faedorne are treated as if she had the Augment Summoning feat (gaining a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution).


----------



## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

cool.  i think i'll cut that down to 1d6 again.  the reason zuggs was set up the way she was, i think, was so that she could summon several different types of creatures in any way she likes.


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2005)

Good point.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

i'll try to work out some flavor text for these witchy women, and defintiely a section on their Isles.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 19, 2005)

done, and updated!


----------



## Mortis (Oct 19, 2005)

<peeks in homebrews>

Looking good. 

Are we going to have a 'Faedorne as characters' section? If so, I can't really see them as being a PC race, so perhaps just the short version?

Otherwise it looks like we just need the following

CR: 10?
LA: +4?
Treasure: Standard + spellbook? + masterwork/magical daggers?

Caster level for quickened _Silent Image_ = 9 (HD) or 12 (as Wizard level equivalent)?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> A faedorne will subtly guide an elven hero on an important quest and provide aid in times of danger, but never interfere directly.






			
				Source said:
			
		

> However, they have been known to favor certain elves and provide them with aid in times of danger. To those they aid, they will usually send 1d6 silver warriors for the duration of one battle or one quest.




Does sending Silver Warriors to aid a hero count as interfering directly? 

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> CR: 10?
> LA: +4?




Yeah, those both look pretty good.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Treasure: Standard + spellbook? + masterwork/magical daggers?




This raises a good point...for a CR 10 creature, it should have at least masterwork, if not magical daggers.    



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Caster level for quickened _Silent Image_ = 9 (HD) or 12 (as Wizard level equivalent)?




I prefer 12th.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Does sending Silver Warriors to aid a hero count as interfering directly?




Heh...probably!


----------



## BOZ (Oct 19, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Are we going to have a 'Faedorne as characters' section? If so, I can't really see them as being a PC race, so perhaps just the short version?




i agree, so the short version should suffice.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Does sending Silver Warriors to aid a hero count as interfering directly?




no, because the silver warriors are donig the interfering.    for the faedorne, that's called interfering indirectly.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> This raises a good point...for a CR 10 creature, it should have at least masterwork, if not magical daggers.




i agree.


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2005)

So, since we're all in agreement, do we want to go with masterwork or +X daggers?


----------



## BOZ (Oct 19, 2005)

i say masterwork is fine - maybe even silver, given the propensity towards silver in the flavor text.


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2005)

Silver sounds flavorful, but remember the -1 damage penalty that material incurs.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 19, 2005)

remember?  i never knew that in the first place.    how about masterwork silver daggers?


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2005)

Sounds good.  So that's +1 attack/-1 damage.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 19, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Treasure: Standard + spellbook? + masterwork/magical daggers?




would that be right, for treasure type G?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 20, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> would that be right, for treasure type G?



Not sure   , I'll check and get back to you.

Masterwork silver daggers sound good. It's not RAW (IIRC) but IMC that's how I always treat weapons/armour of special materials anyway.   

Wow! Lots of abbreviations there.   

Then again how about +1 Silver daggers - still +1 to attack and no damage penalty.   

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 20, 2005)

I think +1 would be fine for that CR.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 20, 2005)

sure, might as well.  don't forget to check on that treasure type.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 21, 2005)

Here you go, Type G Treasure, it's what's in her 'lair' - so probably her Shining Isle.
I wouldn't pay too much attention to the amount of coins as BD&D was far more generous than 3.5e.


50% 1d4 x 10,000 gp
50% 1d6 x 1,000 pp

25% 3d6 gems
25% 1d10 jewelry (pieces of)
30% 1d3 special (rare books, fur, incense etc)
35% Any 4 + 1 scroll

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Oct 21, 2005)

so is that basically standard, then?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 25, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> so is that basically standard, then?



I guess. 

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Oct 25, 2005)

works for me.  updating in homebrews; are we missing anything?


----------



## Shade (Oct 25, 2005)

Silver warriors, unless we're doing them as separate creatures.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 25, 2005)

separate creatures, yes.


----------



## Shade (Oct 25, 2005)

Gotcha.

Dagger damage should be 1d4.  (-1 for silver, +1 enhancement bonus, +0 Str).

Add to Spells:  "save DC 14 + spell level *or 16 + spell level for illusion spells*".


----------



## BOZ (Oct 25, 2005)

updating another time.  how now, brown cow?


----------



## Shade (Oct 25, 2005)

Time to mooooove on, methinks.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 26, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Time to mooooove on, methinks.



Agreed 

Silver Warrior next?

Original stats here 

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Oct 26, 2005)

construct?


----------



## Shade (Oct 26, 2005)

Yeah, I think construct works best.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 26, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> construct?



I don't think so.   

Their type in BD&D was 'Enchanted Humanoid', not whatever the BD&D term was for Constructs. Also, in their description there's a line "...and will fight to the *death* to defend them". I would think that would be *destroyed* if they were intended to be Constructs.

I personally see them as Outsiders.

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 26, 2005)

Yeah, I"m not sure what an "enchanted humanoid" is either, so I took it to mean "artifically created humanoid", but I'm never opposed to another outsider.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 26, 2005)

Stats

Str 19 Dex 16 Con 15 Int 10 Wis 11 Cha 14?

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Oct 26, 2005)

i figure they should probably be the same as a faedorne, Fey (extraplanar).


----------



## Shade (Oct 26, 2005)

That works, too.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 27, 2005)

assuming that:
some preliminary stats for the silver warrior:

*Silver Warrior*
Medium Fey
Hit Dice: 7d6+X (X hp) 
Initiative: +X
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: X (+X Dex, +X natural, +8 full plate), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+X
Attack: _+1 longsword_ +X melee (1d8+X/19-20) 
Full Attack: _+1 longsword_ +X melee (1d8+X/19-20)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: 
Special Qualities: greater invisibility, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 10, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 60
Feats: 3 (Improved Initiative?)

Environment: The Shining Isles
Organization: 1d6
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +X

A silver warrior is about the same size and build as an elf.

COMBAT

Originally found in module O2 ? Blade of Vengeance (1984, Jim Bambra), AC9 - Creature Catalogue (1986), and DMR2 - Creature Catalog (1993).


----------



## Mortis (Oct 27, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i figure they should probably be the same as a faedorne, Fey (extraplanar).



I'll agree on that.    I checked the Rules Cylopedia and DMR2 Creature Catalog, and the faedorne and the Silver Warrior are the only two 'Enchanted Humanoids' in the two books.

Oh, and the BD&D term for Construct is... Construct.  Although in the RC they are all given the Enchanted subtype, but in DMR2 none of them are given it. Go figure. 

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## Mortis (Oct 27, 2005)

Feats: Improved Initiative, Power Attack?, Weapon Focus (Longsword)?

Do we want to give them a 'See Invisibility' ability? Mainly so that they where each other is.

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 27, 2005)

Add the Extraplanar subtype like the faedorne.

I agree with the stats and feats Mortis presented, and think see invis is a good idea.

It looks like their armor and weapons were made of silver as well.  So we're looking at the -1 penalty on damage again (but it does help against lycanthropes and devils     ).   Alchemical silver does not appear to have any impact on armor.  Magic of Faerun says silver armor (different from the alchemical silver found in DMG) grants electricity resistance 2.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 27, 2005)

I'd go with the DMG, for simplicity's sake.  If there is no penalty, we will assign no penalty.    if there is a penalty, we can make it magic armor.


----------



## Shade (Oct 27, 2005)

So be it.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 28, 2005)

How about something along the lines of:

Silver Armor - A creature, that has Damage Redustion X/silver (such as a lycanthrope), which uses a natural weapon against the wearer of the Silver Armor and hits the target must make a Fortitude save DC X or take X points of damage.

It could also give a bonus vs being grappled by such a creature. 

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Oct 28, 2005)

does simply touching silver harm a lycanthrope, or does it come from a wound inflicted by silver?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 28, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> does simply touching silver harm a lycanthrope, or does it come from a wound inflicted by silver?



It used to - at least in BD&D   - but there's no mention of it in the SRD. 

I was thinking that a brief swipe with a claw etc would be okay but a bite (or any other attack that uses a sensitive part of the body - such as Swallow Whole) would take damage, as would the continuous contact needed for a grapple.

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## Knightfall (Oct 28, 2005)

Hi all,

Just checking in on this thread. Great work on the phanaton, chevall, and actaeon!

I'd like to add the Darkwing, Gyerian, Hutaakan, Kna, Lupin, Mek, Pegataur, Shark-kin, and Wyrd (all from the Mystara MC) to the queue.

KF72


----------



## Mortis (Oct 31, 2005)

Knightfall,

You may want to check out this  thread as well. 

There's a 3.0 Pegataur here .

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## Mortis (Oct 31, 2005)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> It's not on the list given, but I'd like to see the ebon tiger converted.



GrayLinnorm

Try here 

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## Filby (Oct 31, 2005)

Also, the lupin was in an issue of Dragon Magazine.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Oct 31, 2005)

Mortis: Thanks!

Filby: Lupins were in Dragon's "Winning Races" series, but weren't statted out.  I think though, that they're going to be in the Dragon Compendium, which was supposed to come out today.  I'm not happy about the delay ....


----------



## Knightfall (Oct 31, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Knightfall,
> 
> You may want to check out this  thread as well.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the links, Mortis.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 1, 2005)

*Effects of Silver on BD&D Lycanthropes*

BOZ,

This is going a little off the topic, but this is what PC4 Night Howlers has to say about the effects of silver on lycanthropes.



			
				PC4 said:
			
		

> Silver
> Silver reacts with the virus in a werecreature's blood, causing a rapid and dangerous rise in temperature.
> The effects of silver in a wound are instantaneous. Even a thin coating of silver on a normal blade can do damage, but the silver must be nearly pure (sterling silver, high-quality silver jewelry, or unadulterated silver coins). The DM determines the purity of any silver - silver alloys may do only half-damage.
> The mere touch of silver on unbroken skin hurts werecreatures as well. Any werecreature in contact with silver for a full turn (10 minutes) must make a saving throw vs. poison or break out in an ugly, painful rash (use the were-form's saving throws). This rash, accompanied by a fever, lasts 1d4 days for each turn the werecreature was in contact with the silver. All ability and skill checks, combat rolls, and saving throws are at -2 while the rash remains. Even if the saving throw is successful, the silver feels white-hot against the werecreature's skin.
> ...




Even if we don't use my silver armor idea for standard campaigns, I think I'll use it for my Mystara campaigns. 

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## Mortis (Nov 1, 2005)

Back to the Silver Warrior   

*Skills:* Hide +7, Jump +8, Listen +10, Move Silently +7, Sense Motive +10, Spot +10

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 2, 2005)

I'd ditch Hide and Move Silently, as the armor check penalty from its plate mail (-6) will essentially nullify them.  If we make it masterwork (which I think we should), it will be only -5.

BOZ - Also note that max Dex to AC will be +1, regardless of what score we give it.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 2, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'd ditch Hide and Move Silently, as the armor check penalty from its plate mail (-6) will essentially nullify them.  If we make it masterwork (which I think we should), it will be only -5.



Shade

I've already taken the ACP into account

60 skill points = 6 skills at 10 ranks each so:
Hide 10 ranks + 3 (dex) - 6 (ACP) = +7  (Jump & Move Silently are similar).

I gave them Move Silently to aid their invisibility - not much use being invisible if your opponents can hear you a mile a way. 

Always open to other suggestions though. 

Regards, 
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 2, 2005)

Ahhh...OK, I see that now.   That's cool, although I think you could do without Hide, thanks to their invisibility (even though you can Hide while invisible).  Maybe Search?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 2, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Ahhh...OK, I see that now.   That's cool, although I think you could do without Hide, thanks to their invisibility (even though you can Hide while invisible).  Maybe Search?



Search works for me. 

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Nov 2, 2005)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> I'd like to add the Darkwing, Gyerian, Hutaakan, Kna, Lupin, Mek ... Shark-kin, and Wyrd (all from the Mystara MC) to the queue.





			
				GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> It's not on the list given, but I'd like to see the ebon tiger converted.



we'll try to get to these all in due time.  



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> This is going a little off the topic, but this is what PC4 Night Howlers has to say about the effects of silver on lycanthropes.
> 
> Even if we don't use my silver armor idea for standard campaigns, I think I'll use it for my Mystara campaigns.




sounds good.  i'd say that the effects of silver touching lycanthrops (as opposed to injuring them) is probably something unique to Mystara or at least that book.  since it is not included in standard 3E, i don't really want to go there.  if it was something specific to the armor the silver warrior was wearing, i would use it.

as to the skills:


			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> *Skills:* Hide +7, Jump +8, Listen +10, Move Silently +7, Sense Motive +10, Spot +10





			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'd ditch Hide and Move Silently, as the armor check penalty from its plate mail (-6) will essentially nullify them.  If we make it masterwork (which I think we should), it will be only -5.
> 
> BOZ - Also note that max Dex to AC will be +1, regardless of what score we give it.





			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> I've already taken the ACP into account
> 
> 60 skill points = 6 skills at 10 ranks each so:
> Hide 10 ranks + 3 (dex) - 6 (ACP) = +7  (Jump & Move Silently are similar).
> ...





			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Ahhh...OK, I see that now.   That's cool, although I think you could do without Hide, thanks to their invisibility (even though you can Hide while invisible).  Maybe Search?




OK, i will totally agree that their ability to remain unseen is almost entirely due to their invisibility power.  MS makes them hard to detect, so that needs to stay.  so just switch the given Hide ranks to Search and call it a day?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 2, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Str 19 Dex 16 Con 15 Int 10 Wis 11 Cha 14?




oh right, did we agree on this yet?

that Str might be a bit high (maybe), but i think the rest are OK.  maybe a higher Wis, maybe not.


----------



## Shade (Nov 2, 2005)

I seem to remember that we decided on high Str so that they actually could hit somethihg since they are crippled with wizard BAB.

I'm fine with the ability scores, but would be OK with a +2 bump to Wis.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 2, 2005)

This is about the only other combat-like thing I see:
"A silver warrior slain in combat will dissolve into the substance of a Shining Isle, as will its weapon and armor."


----------



## Shade (Nov 2, 2005)

That's probably sufficient as flavor text, eh?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 3, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I seem to remember that we decided on high Str so that they actually could hit somethihg since they are crippled with wizard BAB.
> 
> I'm fine with the ability scores, but would be OK with a +2 bump to Wis.



Obviously I'm fine with the ability acores too, although I wouldn't feel hard done by if we gave the +2 bump to Wis.

As regards, the wizard BAB, that's one reason I was initially favouring the Outsider type. 

On a related issue, should we mention the benefits the summoned Silver Warriors get from faedorne's Augment Summoning ability in the Combat section?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "A silver warrior slain in combat will dissolve into the substance of a Shining Isle, as will its weapon and armor."




As Shade says, that's fine as flavour text.



> OK, i will totally agree that their ability to remain unseen is almost entirely due to their invisibility power. MS makes them hard to detect, so that needs to stay. so just switch the given Hide ranks to Search and call it a day?



That's fine, and if we increase the Wis by 2 that's another +1 to Listen, Sense Motive and Spot. 

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 3, 2005)

Add a request for death demon (ostegos) from Castle Amber and later in the Creature Catalogues.

I think we were going to do this one around the time of the Castle Amber conversions, but it has since been forgotten.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

that queue is getting long.  



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> On a related issue, should we mention the benefits the summoned Silver Warriors get from faedorne's Augment Summoning ability in the Combat section?




sounds good!

posting what i have so far in homebrews...


----------



## Shade (Nov 3, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> that queue is getting long.




I know!  Seeing that this is the only thread that gets consistent requests other than the Overhaul and Epic threads, perhaps we need to break it up into smaller categories, such as OD&D, 2E Mystara, Mystara modules, etc.?


----------



## Shade (Nov 3, 2005)

Speed should be 20 ft. (full plate), base 30 ft.

Speak Elven and Sylvan?

I'd suggest either wielding the longsword two-handed, granting Str and a half to damage, or give 'em a silver shield.

The three feats listed work for me.

Nat armor should be low...probably +1 to +3.  If our target AC is 19, we can ditch it altogether.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I know!  Seeing that this is the only thread that gets consistent requests other than the Overhaul and Epic threads, perhaps we need to break it up into smaller categories, such as OD&D, 2E Mystara, Mystara modules, etc.?




i'll have to think about that... there is significant overlap between those categories.


----------



## Shade (Nov 3, 2005)

See Invisibility (Su): This ability functions like the see invisibility spell (caster level Xth), except that it is continuously active.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Speed should be 20 ft. (full plate), base 30 ft.




that's going to seriously hamper its Jump check.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'd suggest either wielding the longsword two-handed, granting Str and a half to damage, or give 'em a silver shield.




can it wield a longsword two-handed??



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Nat armor should be low...probably +1 to +3.  If our target AC is 19, we can ditch it altogether.




i'll skip the natural armor.  the AC line said "2 (-2)" so maybe AC 18, and an extra +4 for being invisible based on what the old text says.


----------



## Shade (Nov 3, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> that's going to seriously hamper its Jump check.




Indeed.  But does it really need to Jump that much?    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> can it wield a longsword two-handed??




Yep. It just can't get 2-for-1 Power Attack.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i'll skip the natural armor.  the AC line said "2 (-2)" so maybe AC 18, and an extra +4 for being invisible based on what the old text says.




Sounds good.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

how do i write up the longsword part then?


----------



## Shade (Nov 3, 2005)

Just make the damage bonus +6, and you're good to go.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

so i don't need to note anywhere that it weilds a longsword two-handed?


----------



## Shade (Nov 3, 2005)

It's not necessary, but you could put it on the "tactics" line immediately following the Combat header.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

updating.


----------



## Shade (Nov 3, 2005)

You forgot the extra +2 to damage for 2-handed.    

Organization:  Detail (1-6)?

Should we just go this route?

Spell-Like Abilities:  At will--greater invisibility.  Caster level Xth.

LA:  +2 (unbalanced scores, at will SLAs).


----------



## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

on second thought, i don't think it should have an LA.

CR...4?


----------



## Shade (Nov 3, 2005)

CR 4 seems reasonable.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

updating...


----------



## Shade (Nov 3, 2005)

Remove the "3" from the Feats line.

CL 7th for all abilties?

Otherwise, I think it's done (pending Mortis's approval).


----------



## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

agreed.    updating once more.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 4, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Otherwise, I think it's done (pending Mortis's approval).



Approval granted. 

On reflection I would keep the level adjustment. To keep with the original text of a summoned silver warrior being sent to aid a favored elf for the duration of a quest, it's possible a GM would allow a player to play one - unless he knew about the extra +4 to Str and Con. 

Also something along the lines of:

Summoned Silver Warrior: A Silver warrior summoned by a faedorne gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution).

SILVER WARRIORS AS CHARACTERS
A Silver Warrior's favored class is Fighter.

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## Mortis (Nov 4, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I know!  Seeing that this is the only thread that gets consistent requests other than the Overhaul and Epic threads, perhaps we need to break it up into smaller categories, such as OD&D, 2E Mystara, Mystara modules, etc.?



I'm with BOZ on this one, because of the interconnections and overlaps it's easier to keep the different sources together. However, we could do grouped or themed conversions such as all creatures from a requested module at the same time.

For example. from the module O2 Sword of Vengeance, we've recently converted the  faedorne and silver warrior plus the flitterling awhile ago, so the Shargug would be next (and last).

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Nov 4, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> something along the lines of:
> 
> Summoned Silver Warrior: A Silver warrior summoned by a faedorne gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution).




would that be the proper way of recording that?  not too sure that i want an LA or "as characters" section, i mean unless the PCs were going to be spending their time on a Shining Isle or working for a faedorne.  



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> from the module O2 Sword of Vengeance, we've recently converted the  faedorne and silver warrior plus the flitterling awhile ago, so the Shargug would be next (and last).




sure, if you want to do that one next.


----------



## Knightfall (Nov 5, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I know!  Seeing that this is the only thread that gets consistent requests other than the Overhaul and Epic threads, perhaps we need to break it up into smaller categories, such as OD&D, 2E Mystara, Mystara modules, etc.?




Well, I'm the patient sort, so I'll wait for my suggestions enter the queue.

My "really want to see converted" list includes the Darkwing, Hutaakan, Kna, Mek, and Shark-kin. I already have my own version of the Lupin (which I'll be happy to share when it comes up) and Mortis supplied me with the link to a 3.0 version of the Pegataur, so I'm good for that one.

I think splitting up the thread is a bit redundant at this point. It's already fairly long. If anything, a second thread might be required after a certain point. I suggest you stick with one thread for now and see where it is by the end of December. (A new version of the thread for a new year?)

KF72


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## BOZ (Nov 5, 2005)

if it's popular enough, i could always start an auxilliary thread.  not that i'm not busy enough with all the other threads.


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## Mortis (Nov 7, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> would that be the proper way of recording that?  not too sure that i want an LA or "as characters" section, i mean unless the PCs were going to be spending their time on a Shining Isle or working for a faedorne.



Not sure, because the way summoning normally works, summoned creatures are only around for a hour and are therefore not really playable. However, the silver warrior can be with a favoured elf for the duration of a quest and would therefore be playable.

An inelegant solution would be to require the player of a summoned silver warrior to buy a feat "Summoned Warrior" which gives the benefits of the Augment Summoning feat.

All in all though BOZ, you're probaly right, leave out the LA and As characters section.

So, I'll say that the Silver Warrior is done.



> sure, if you want to do that one next.



Well we could do the Shargug next but Shade won't be happy it looks like a Wild Halfling 

Regards,
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Well we could do the Shargug next but Shade won't be happy it looks like a Wild Halfling




Who gives a rat's ass about Shade's happiness?


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## BOZ (Nov 7, 2005)

Certainly not i.     so wrap up module O2 and all its silly faerie goodness before moving on, or just move on?


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2005)

Let's wrap ourselves in fey (preferably nymphs) before moving on.


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## Knightfall (Nov 8, 2005)

Agreed.

Perhaps, that should be how the thread works - one module/source at a time. Just a thought.


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## Mortis (Nov 8, 2005)

OK then here's the Shargugh entry from DMR2 Creature Catalog

Shargugh

Armor Class: 7
Hit Dice: 3` (S)
Move: 150' (50')
Attacks: 1 bite or weapon
Damage: 1d4 or by weapon
No. Appearing: 0 (1d3)
Save As: Elf: 6
Morale: 7
Treasure Type: Nil
Intelligence: 10
Alignment: Neutral
XP Value: 50

Monster Type: Humanoid (Very Rare).
Shargugh are three foot tall humanoids with wild, matted, brown hair and long, tangled, brown beards. Shargugh wear ragged, brown and green clothing and are sometimes armed with silver daggers. Each individual or group has a woodland territory roughly 24 miles in diameter. (It is exactly equal to a 24 mile wide wilderness hexagon, if these are being used.) A shargugh is tied to its territory, which nurtures its life force. In a sort of symbiosis, the woodland territory also takes strength from the shargugh, as well as being protected actively by the woodland folk. A shargugh will never voluntarily leave its territory, and if forced to do so, will sicken and die in one to two days unless returned before that time.
Any section of woodland whose shargugh is killed will become cursed and infertile for seven years. During that time, no new plants or trees will grow. Existing plants and trees will continue to grow, but will not bear any fruit or flowers. A druid who casts a remove curse spell can restore fertility to the land at any time.
A shargugh has the ability to transport itself instantaneously through trees for up to 600 yards. It does this by passing into one tree and emerging from another in its destination area. A shargugh can use this ability 5 times per day.
Shargugh are mischievous and are likely to steal valuable objects from any creature encountering them. They are able to pick pockets with an 85% chance of success and move silently 85% of the time. To dissuade shargugh from stealing, woodland folk often leave offerings of food and drink for the creatures. In return for this, shargugh have been known to carry out small but useful tasks. They are also able to hide in woods in the same way as halflings, with a 90% chance of success.
Terrain: Woods.

Regards,
Mortis


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## Mortis (Nov 8, 2005)

What I've come up with so far is:

*Shargugh
Small Fey*
*Hit Dice*: 3d6 (10 hp)
*Initiative*: +3 (Dex)
*Speed*: 20 ft. (4 squares)
*Armor Class *: 14 (+1 size, +3 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 11
*Base Attack/Grapple*: +1/-3

*Space/Reach*: 5 ft./5 ft.

*Saves*: Fort +1 Ref +5 Will +3

*Abilities*: Str 11 Dex 16 Con 10 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 9

*Skills*: (36) Hide, Move Silently, & Sleight of Hand - 6 ranks each as they are mentioned in original write up.
Climb, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Search, Spot, Survival - 3 ranks each?
Racial bonus to any skill needed?

*Feats*: (2) Stealthy?, Weapon Finesse?

*Environment*: Temperate forest
*Organization*: Solitary or group (2-6)
*Challenge Rating*: X
*Treasure*: Standard
*Alignment*: Usually neutral
*Advancement*: By character class
*Level Adjustment*: ---

*Combat*

*Woodland Dependent (Su)*: Each shargugh is mystically bound to it's woodland territory and must never stray more than 300? yards from it. Any who do become ill and die within 4d6 hours. 

*Curse of the Shargugh (Su)*: The territory of a slain shargugh becomes cursed and infertile for a period of 7 years. New plants and trees will not grow, whilst existing flora will neither fruit nor flower. A _hallow_? spell cast by a druid will restore the woodland's fertility at any point.

*Spell-like Abilities (Sp)*: 5/day _Tree Stride _ Caster Level 3?

How about the Hamadryad's Woodland Mastery ability?

Comments, suggestions? 

Regards,
Mortis


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## BOZ (Nov 10, 2005)

Speed:  if the faedorne and silver warrior had "120' (40')", and the shargugh has "150' (50')", if we converted the other two to 30 ft per round, why would we make the shargugh 20 ft?  

i would have their melee attack be with a silver dagger, since that is the only weapon mentioned in the entry.

i think your skill and feat selections are just fine.

Str 11 Dex 16 Con 10 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 9 should be OK i think, as long as they don't have any abilities with Will-based saves.

Advancement by character class or by HD?



			
				DMR2 said:
			
		

> Each individual or group has a woodland territory roughly 24 miles in diameter. (It is exactly equal to a 24 mile wide wilderness hexagon, if these are being used.) A shargugh is tied to its territory, which nurtures its life force. In a sort of symbiosis, the woodland territory also takes strength from the shargugh, as well as being protected actively by the woodland folk. A shargugh will never voluntarily leave its territory, and if forced to do so, will sicken and die in one to two days unless returned before that time.




Basically the same as the dryad power, but probably a bit more powerful.  Keep in mind, "individual or group", so if you have 3 shargughs in a territory, I would say the curse ability below requires the death of all 3. 

Woodland Dependent (Su): Each shargugh is mystically bound to its woodland territory, which is a section of woods no larger than a 24-mile radius.  A shargugh's relationship with its territory is symbiotic, and both draw strength from each other, so a shargugh must never leave its boundaries.  Any shargugh who does becomes ill and dies within 1d2 days. A shargugh's woodland territory does not radiate magic.



			
				DMR2 said:
			
		

> Any section of woodland whose shargugh is killed will become cursed and infertile for seven years. During that time, no new plants or trees will grow. Existing plants and trees will continue to grow, but will not bear any fruit or flowers. A druid who casts a remove curse spell can restore fertility to the land at any time.




Yeah, hallow should be fine (since druids can't cast remove curse in 3.5).  should we open that up to clerics as well?



			
				DMR2 said:
			
		

> A shargugh has the ability to transport itself instantaneously through trees for up to 600 yards. It does this by passing into one tree and emerging from another in its destination area. A shargugh can use this ability 5 times per day.




Yeah, just sounds like tree stride 5/day.



			
				DMR2 said:
			
		

> Shargugh are mischievous and are likely to steal valuable objects from any creature encountering them. They are able to pick pockets with an 85% chance of success and move silently 85% of the time. To dissuade shargugh from stealing, woodland folk often leave offerings of food and drink for the creatures. In return for this, shargugh have been known to carry out small but useful tasks. They are also able to hide in woods in the same way as halflings, with a 90% chance of success.




Using ye olde conversion guide for thief skill percentages (X% /5 -5), we get a Sleight of Hand and Move Silently of +12, and a Hide (in woods at least) of +13, so perhaps some racial bonuses will be in order.


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## Mortis (Nov 10, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Speed:  if the faedorne and silver warrior had "120' (40')", and the shargugh has "150' (50')", if we converted the other two to 30 ft per round, why would we make the shargugh 20 ft?



 :\   Didn't actually look at the movement line, just used the standard for small humanoids.
so they're slightly quicker than humans so:
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares)



> i would have their melee attack be with a silver dagger, since that is the only weapon mentioned in the entry.



Yes I initially had put the attack lines in but took them out for some reason, they looked like this:
*Attack: * Bite +4 melee (1d3) or silver dagger +4 melee (1d3-1 19-20)
*Full Attack: * Bite +4 melee (1d3) or silver dagger +4 melee (1d3-1 19-20)

I suppose with a full attack it could/should be bite *and* dagger?



> I think your skill and feat selections are just fine.



Thanks.   



> Str 11 Dex 16 Con 10 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 9 should be OK i think, as long as they don't have any abilities with Will-based saves.



Nothing at the moment strikes me as requiring a Will-based save.



> Advancement by character class or by HD?



We could go for both, I can certainly see them taking levels of a few classes (druid, ranger, rogue).





> I would say the curse ability below requires the death of all 3.



 agreed. 



> Woodland Dependent (Su): Each shargugh is mystically bound to its woodland territory, which is a section of woods no larger than a 24-mile radius.  A shargugh's relationship with its territory is symbiotic, and both draw strength from each other, so a shargugh must never leave its boundaries.  Any shargugh who does becomes ill and dies within 1d2 days. A shargugh's woodland territory does not radiate magic.



Looks good.



> Yeah, hallow should be fine (since druids can't cast remove curse in 3.5).  should we open that up to clerics as well?



I don't see why not, as a compromise how about Clerics with a link to nature, ie Animal or Plant Domains.



> Yeah, just sounds like tree stride 5/day.



Thought so. 

Using ye olde conversion guide for thief skill percentages (X% /5 -5), we get a Sleight of Hand and Move Silently of +12, and a Hide (in woods at least) of +13, so perhaps some racial bonuses will be in order.[/QUOTE]
That would give them a +3 racial bonus to Move Silently and Sleight of Hand [12 - (6 [ranks] + 3 [Dex]) = 3). Hide is fine as is [12 - (6 [ranks] + 3 [Dex] +4 [size]) = 0].

*Shargugh as Characters*
*Favored Class: * Druids?, Rangers? or Rogues?
Shargugh clerics may select from the following domains: Animal, Plants, Trickery

Any others?

Regards,
Mortis


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## Filby (Nov 10, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> *Shargugh as Characters*
> *Favored Class: * Druids?, Rangers? or Rogues?




I think druid and ranger fit best (can't decide between the two...), with a note that rogues are also common.


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## Mortis (Nov 10, 2005)

Filby said:
			
		

> I think druid and ranger fit best (can't decide between the two...), with a note that rogues are also common.



I think with their racial bonuses that ranger will be the most natural of the two (if you pardon the pun).

Regards,
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2005)

I'd have them simply advance by character class, as the dryad (which they most closely resemble) advances in that manner.

I'd let anyone who can cast hallow remove the curse.

Don't forget the -1 damage penalty for silver weapons (you may have already incorporated this...I didn't check real closely).


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## Mortis (Nov 10, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'd have them simply advance by character class, as the dryad (which they most closely resemble) advances in that manner.



Upon reflection, I agree with that, I can't think of a reason why they would want to advance by HD.



> I'd let anyone who can cast hallow remove the curse.



OK. 



> Don't forget the -1 damage penalty for silver weapons (you may have already incorporated this...I didn't check real closely).



Yep, already taken into account. 

Regards,
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2005)

It looks like we just need BOZ to Homebrews this and we should be close to finished.


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## Mortis (Nov 10, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> It looks like we just need BOZ to Homebrews this and we should be close to finished.



Which obviously includes the flavour text etc.   

Regards,
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2005)

CR 2?

Damage reduction 5/cold iron like most low-HD fey?

Wild empathy?

Add low-light vision to SQ line.


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## Mortis (Nov 10, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> CR 2?
> 
> Damage reduction 5/cold iron like most low-HD fey?
> 
> ...




All look good to me, anyone else care to comment?

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Nov 10, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I suppose with a full attack it could/should be bite *and* dagger?




I don't know; the original stat block said "bite or weapon".



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Hide is fine as is [12 - (6 [ranks] + 3 [Dex] +4 [size]) = 0].




True, but we could give them an additional racial bonus for hiding in the woods, just because.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> It looks like we just need BOZ to Homebrews this and we should be close to finished.




Oh, you don't need me anymore!  Boohoo!


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## BOZ (Nov 11, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> How about the Hamadryad's Woodland Mastery ability?




what about it?  

Wild Empathy (Ex): This power works like the druid?s wild empathy class feature, except that the hamadryad has a +6 racial bonus on the check (as well as a +2 synergy bonus for Handle Animal).

Woodland Mastery (Su): Hamadryads are in tune with their forest and the environment they live in, and have a significant advantage while in the woodlands. They have exact knowledge of their forest home, providing them with +20 to Knowledge (nature) and Survival checks. Hamadryads in the forest are immune to any sort of summoning spell, but are aware of the attempted summons and from where it originated. They can consume and process any type of water, even water fouled by human or animal wastes.


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## Mortis (Nov 11, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I don't know; the original stat block said "bite or weapon".



That's fine, let's stick with 'or'



> True, but we could give them an additional racial bonus for hiding in the woods, just because.



+4 perhaps?



> Oh, you don't need me anymore!  Boohoo!



Of course we still need the BOZ-man.  It's just that you're such a busy chap we thought we'ld spread the work out. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Mortis (Nov 11, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> what about it?



I think we should use it , although we may not need the part about summoning. We can use Wild Empathy as is - well after changing hamadryad to shargugh 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2005)

+4 for the Hide bonus sounds good.


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## BOZ (Nov 12, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Of course we still need the BOZ-man.  It's just that you're such a busy chap we thought we'ld spread the work out.




man, today sucked.  i mean, fridays are great and all, but that's the one day of the week where my supervisor doesn't go home until i'm almost leaving.    really puts a crimp in working on important stuff, like CC business.  

and yes, posting in homebrews what i have so far...


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2005)

Add Jump +4 to skills line (due to speed bonus).

Should they speak anything other than Sylvan?  Dryads speak Common and Elven as well.

Nat armor +1?  (Dryad has +3; redcap has +1; nymph and brownie have none).

3 foot tall and 50 pounds?

They shouldn't have an LA as dryads don't.  The woodland dependent ability is too limiting.

Solitary or grove (2-3)?  [this is what dryads call a group]


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## BOZ (Nov 12, 2005)

elven, at least.  not necessarily common.

they can have small natural armor (+1 - +3) or none at all.  i'm fine either way.


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

+6 for wild empathy like dryad, unicorn, and just about every other creature that has it?    

"Tactics" text:   A shargugh prefers thievery to combat, relying on its natural stealth and tree stride ability to pilfer valuable objects and escape.  If its woodland territory is threatened, it will fight ferociously with bite or dagger to defend its home.


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

"A shargugh can speak Sylvan, Elven..."

and were we going to give him natural armor or is he fine as-is?


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## Mortis (Nov 14, 2005)

I'm not adverse to giving the Shargugh +1 natural armor.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

Let's give him the +1 nat armor and stick with Sylvan and Elven.


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## Mortis (Nov 14, 2005)

Are we about done with the Shargugh?

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

OK, updating once more.  how does the final product look?


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## Mortis (Nov 14, 2005)

Looks good. 

Next? There's 9 in the list. Let's steer clear of fey for awhile. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

Yep, looks good.


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Let's steer clear of fey for awhile.




LOL, allright.


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## Mortis (Nov 15, 2005)

The Darkwing's at the top of the list, so I assume we'll do it next - assuming it's not fey 

There's a 3.0 version here.

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Nov 15, 2005)

sure, give me a few days.


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## Knightfall (Nov 15, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> The Darkwing's at the top of the list, so I assume we'll do it next - assuming it's not fey
> 
> There's a 3.0 version here.
> 
> ...




DARKWING! DARKWING!


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## Filby (Nov 15, 2005)

Let's get dangerou... err, wrong Darkwing.


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## BOZ (Nov 15, 2005)

heh.    just one thing - where did it first appear?  a module?  i doubt that it first appeared in the Creature Catalogue books.


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## Filby (Nov 16, 2005)

I don't know for sure if it appeared there first, but the darkwing was in _The Five Shires_.


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## Mortis (Nov 16, 2005)

Just to save you some time Boz here are the Darkwings stats from DMR2 Creature Catalog and the 2E Mystara Monstrous Compendium.

Regards
Mortis

--------------------------------------
DMR2 Creature Catalog
Dark Wing

Armor Class:   5
Hit Dice:   3* (M)
Move: 60' (20')
Flying   180' (60')
Attacks: 2 claws, 1 bite
Damage:  1d4/1d4/1d6
No. Appearing: 1d3x10 (1d3x10)
Save As: Fighter: 3
Morale:  9
Treasure Type: B
Intelligence:  7
Alignment:  Chaotic
XP Value:   50

Monster Type: Humanoid (Very Rare).
Dark wings inhabit high rocky crags and mountains. They have green, scaly bodies and black, leathery wings. The creatures are nocturnal and never come out of their dark, eerie caves during the day. At night they flock forth to the lowlands to hunt.
Dark wings dislike bright lights and never leave their caves on the nights of the full moon. A light spell causes them to fight with a penalty of -1 to attack and damage rolls, and also to make morale checks at -1. A continual light spell causes them to fight at -2 to hit and damage, and immediately to make a morale check or flee to their lair. These effects are not cumulative, so dark wings subject to both light and continual light spells are at -2 to hit and damage, not -3. Dark wings that make successful morale checks fight to the death, but still suffer the penalties incurred by bright lights.
Because of their dark coloration and ability to glide, dark wings surprise opponents on a roll of 1 4 on 1d6. Two dark wings acting in unison can swoop down and carry off a human sized creature if both make a attack roll of 18 or more. Larger creatures such as horses or cattle are killed and dismembered before being taken to the lair.
A dark wing lair is a foul and unsettling place, covered in the creatures' filth and the bones of their victims. There will always be 2d6 young roosting on ledges around the caves. These young dark wings will fight if threatened or attacked (AC 8; HD 1-1; #AT 1 bite; Damage 1d3).
Terrain: Cavern, Mountain, Hills, Open (night only).


---------------------------------------------------------------
Mystaran Monstrous Compendium

Darkwing

Climate/Terrain:  Any cavern, mountain, hills, plains (night only)
Frequency:  Very rare
Organization:  Flock
Activity Cycle:   Night
Diet: Carnivore
Intelligence:  Low (7)
Treasure:   (B)
Alignment:  Neutral Evil
No. Appearing: 10d3
Armor Class:   5
Movement:   6, Fl 18 (D)
Hit Dice:   3
THACO:   17
No. of Attacks:   3
Damage/Attack: 1d4 (claw)/1d4 (claw)/1D6 (bite)
Special Attacks:  Nil
Special Defense:  Nil
Magic Resistance: Nil
Size: M (5' tall)
Morale:  Steady (11)
XP Value:   65

The bane of all who raise livestock, darkwings are flying humanoids that flock and attack at night, often decimating entire herds of cattle or sheep. Many scholars believe they are related to deep glaurants (see "deep glaurant").
Darkwings have scaly green bodies and feathery black wings. Their claws are long and sharp, and their mouths are filled with vicious, sharp teeth.
All darkwings speak a simple language of their own. Most of their words concern hunting and status in the flock. A very few darkwings have learned human tongues. More frequently, the top darkwing of a flock may learn the language of humanoids who might be persuaded to join the flock in raids on livestock.

Combat
With their dark coloration and gliding flight, darkwings can readily surprise opponents at night (-4 to victims surprise rolls). They attack with their claws and bite. Two darkwings acting in unison can swoop down and carry off a human-sized creature provided both make an attack roll of 18 or more. Larger creatures such as horses or cattle are killed and dismembered before being taken back to the lair.
Darkwings dislike bright light and never leave their caves when the moon is full. A light spell causes them to fight with a penalty of -1 to morale, attack, and damage rolls. A continual light spell causes them to immediately make a morale check with a -2 penalty or flee to their lair. If they stay, they fight with a -2 penalty to their attack and damage rolls (though each hit will inflict a minimum of 1 point of damage. The effects of light are not cumulative (darkwings subject to both a light and a continual light spell fight at -2 not -3). Darkwings that make successful morale checks fight to the death, but still suffer the other penalties listed.

Habitat/Society
Darkwings gather in flocks, taking full advantage of their numbers and flying ability to terrify and corner their prey. Each flock has a "pecking order" by which a single leader - the largest and smartest - keeps the lesser individuals in line. The leader also chooses where to fly for the hunt, selects the best mates, and so forth. Either a male or a female may lead the pecking order. It is a dangerous and precarious position, as the lesser darkwings are always vying to elevate their own status in the flock at the expense of their superiors.
Dark caves, high in harsh mountain ranges, are the preferred abode of darkwings. A darkwing lair is a foal and unsettling place, covered in the creatures' filth and the bones of their victims. There are always 2d6 young roosting on ledges around the caves, they fight only if threatened or attacked (AC 8; HD 1-1; #AT 1 (bite only); D 1d3).

Ecology
Darkwings are nocturnal, and never come out of their dark eerie caves during the day. At night, they flock to the lowlands to hunt. They prefer easy prey, naturally, and so are drawn to the flocks and herds of human farmers.
Few farmers have the wherewithal to confront and drive off these vicious predators, and the darkwings have few natural enemies. If a flock of darkwings makes trouble over an extended period of time in a region, it won't be long before they are challenged. It may be a group of irate farmers, or the local knight with his henchmen (whose rents and taxes are threatened if their tenants or serfs are impoverished), or even a party of adventurous champions that will set out to drive off or slay the darkwings. Because of this, the winged humanoids, rare to begin with, dwindle as civilization spreads.
In the absence of human livestock to raid, darkwings tend to subsist on smaller wild mammals, such as rabbits and young deer. Like wolves, they prefer the young, the aged, and the sickly over large and healthy individuals that might prove troublesome to overcome. These pickings are not as easy as humans' livestock, and so the numbers of darkwings remain modest even in the wilds.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 16, 2005)

...and some 3.5e stats to discuss...

Darkwing
Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice: 3d8+X
Initiative: +1 (Dex)
Speed: X ft. (X squares), Fly X ft. (average)
Armor Class: 15 (+1 Dex, +4 Natural Armor), touch 11, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+5 
Attack:  Bite +5 melee (1d6+2)
Full Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d6+2) and 2 claws +3 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft. / 5 ft. 
Special Attacks: 
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft.,
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +4 
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 8 
Skills: (6) Hide +2, Listen +2, Move Silently +2, Spot +3, Survival +2
(Thats 2 skill points in Spot and 1 skill point in the others)
Feats: (2) Flyby Attack, Multiattack
Environment:  Any mountains
Organization: Solitary, Wing (2-5), or Flock (5-20) 
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: 
Alignment:  Usually neutral evil
Advancement: 4-6 HD (Medium), 7-9 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: 

Combat


----------



## Mortis (Nov 16, 2005)

We'll need a couple of special abilities, one to cover the 'teamwork snatch' ability and another for the silent glide attack. I am thinking of something along the lines of.

*Cooperative Snatch (Ex): * If two darkwings successfully attack the same target (of medium size or smaller) with at least one claw attack each they can choose to start a grapple, as though they had the improved grab special attack. Whilst performing this ability the darkwing's fly speed is halved to X feet and it's manoeverability is reduced to poor.

*Silent Glide (Ex): * At night, whilst gliding in to attack, the darkwing's dark coloring and soft, owl-like feathers grant a +4 circumstance bonus to it's Hide and Move Silently skill checks.

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Nov 16, 2005)

whoah, slow down, i need a few days.  

OK, Five Shires is very possibly where it first appeared.  i'm going to see if i can research that.


----------



## Shade (Nov 16, 2005)

It's the desmodu meets el chupacabra!    

The cooperative grab 'em ability was actually covered in a recent issue of Dragon...

Group Snatch (Ex): A group of four or more flying monkeys can lift up and carry away a size Small creature, attacking as a group and using a single grapple check. Two are required for Tiny creatures, and eight for a Medium creature.

When a creature does not wish to be snatched into the air, an opposed grapple check is required. The flying monkeys gain a +2 bonus on this grapple check for each flying monkey beyond the first participating in the attempt. If the monkeys succeed, the creature is grappled and forced to move along with the monkeys. If they fail, the creature stays on the ground.

Once a creature is airborne, it may choose to continue resisting, forcing a grapple check each round. This reduces the monkeys' flying speed by half. If successful, the creature falls from their grasp and takes falling damage normally.

Which of these should we give 'em?

Light Blindness (EX): Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area. 

Light Sensitivity (Ex): Orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.

Probably the latter, methinks.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 16, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Which of these should we give 'em?
> 
> Light Blindness (EX): Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area.
> 
> ...



Yup I vote for the second as well. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Mortis (Nov 16, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> The cooperative grab 'em ability was actually covered in a recent issue of Dragon...



How fortunate. 



> Group Snatch (Ex): A group of four or more flying monkeys can lift up and carry away a size Small creature, attacking as a group and using a single grapple check. Two are required for Tiny creatures, and eight for a Medium creature.
> 
> When a creature does not wish to be snatched into the air, an opposed grapple check is required. The flying monkeys gain a +2 bonus on this grapple check for each flying monkey beyond the first participating in the attempt. If the monkeys succeed, the creature is grappled and forced to move along with the monkeys. If they fail, the creature stays on the ground.
> 
> Once a creature is airborne, it may choose to continue resisting, forcing a grapple check each round. This reduces the monkeys' flying speed by half. If successful, the creature falls from their grasp and takes falling damage normally.



So...

Group Snatch (Ex): A group of two or more darkwings can lift up and carry away a size Medium creature, attacking as a group and using a single grapple check. Only one is required for Small or smaller creatures, and four for a Large creature.

When a creature does not wish to be snatched into the air, an opposed grapple check is required. The darkwings gain a +2 bonus on this grapple check for each darkwing beyond the first participating in the attempt. If the darkwings succeed, the creature is grappled and forced to move along with the darkwings. If they fail, the creature stays on the ground.

Once a creature is airborne, it may choose to continue resisting, forcing a grapple check each round. This reduces the darkwings' flying speed by half. If successful, the creature falls from their grasp and takes falling damage normally.

Personally I still think that their manoeverability should be affected, thoughts?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 16, 2005)

It looks good, and no, I don't think that their manoeverability should be affected.  My reasoning...a single flying creature can, as part of a grapple, attempt to move the grapple, without any penalty to their movement.   They may lose the ability to fly altogether due to carrying capacity, though.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 16, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> It looks good, and no, I don't think that their manoeverability should be affected.  My reasoning...a single flying creature can, as part of a grapple, attempt to move the grapple, without any penalty to their movement.   They may lose the ability to fly altogether due to carrying capacity, though.



My reasoning on it affecting the manoeverability was that it would be difficult for both creatures to turn at the same precise moment. However, it won't really affect the game if manoeverability isn't affected , and as it isn't mentioned in the Dragon article (with even more creatures being able to fly as one) then I'll retract my suggestion. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 16, 2005)

I can see where you're coming from, but this is one of those frequent reality for the sake of simplicity compromises, I believe.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 22, 2005)

Filby said:
			
		

> I don't know for sure if it appeared there first, but the darkwing was in _The Five Shires_.




Monsters of the Five Shires (p65-68):  Deep glaurant, feywing, nightgleet, rockfang, seergar, wychlamp

Sorry, no dice!    (unless you were talking about an appearance outside of the new monsters section)

BTW, please put this one on pause.  I swear, I will resume this conversion after the American Thanksgiving holiday (the 24th).


----------



## Filby (Nov 22, 2005)

Oh, right -- I had it confused with the deep glaurant. My bad.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 22, 2005)

OK, i'm going to try to find out where else it came from.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 22, 2005)

i just hope this one doesn't end up in next month's Dragon.


----------



## Shade (Nov 22, 2005)

I doubt it will...it's too much like the desmodu...and we know how people love them.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 22, 2005)

heh  

when the answer comes in, it will be here: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=157262


----------



## BOZ (Nov 25, 2005)

OK, looks like AC9 Creature Catalog was the original source for the dark wing, oddly enough.  


so, agree on Str 15, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 8 or not?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 25, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> so, agree on Str 15, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 8 or not?



Well I do! 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Knightfall (Nov 25, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, looks like AC9 Creature Catalog was the original source for the dark wing, oddly enough.
> 
> 
> so, agree on Str 15, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 8 or not?




Actually, I'd increase its Dexterity to 14 and give it 1 less of natural armor. We are talking about a flying creature. Its touch AC should be a little better than 11, IMO.

KF72


----------



## BOZ (Nov 25, 2005)

sounds good.  i wouldn't go any higher than that, since according to the Mystara Monstrous Compendium its maneuverability class should be Poor.


----------



## Shade (Nov 26, 2005)

Agreed.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 26, 2005)

posted in homebrews for a preview.


----------



## Shade (Nov 26, 2005)

Attack should be claw.

I like the feats and skill ranks.

CR 2?

LA +2?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 28, 2005)

Knightfall said:
			
		

> Actually, I'd increase its Dexterity to 14 and give it 1 less of natural armor. We are talking about a flying creature. Its touch AC should be a little better than 11, IMO.



No problem with that.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> posted in homebrews for a preview.



Looks good. 



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Attack should be claw.



Agreed!   



> I like the feats and skill ranks.



 



> CR 2?
> 
> LA +2?



Looks good.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Nov 28, 2005)

good deal.   i'll try to "flavor-text" this guy today.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 28, 2005)

done, and updated in homebrews.


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2005)

Looks good.  Do we need anything else?  An "as characters" section, perhaps?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 28, 2005)

could be.  they're not too bright, but not so bad that someone couldn't play one as a character if they really wanted to.


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2005)

Dark Wings as Characters

Most dark wing leaders are ?. Dark wing clerics worship ? and can choose any two of the following domains: ?.

Dark wing characters possess the following racial traits: 

+4 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma. 
Medium size. 
A dark wing's base land speed is 20 feet, and it has a fly speed of 50 feet (poor).
Darkvision out to 60 feet. 
Racial Hit Dice: A dark wing begins with three levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 3d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +3 and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +3, and Will +3. 
Racial Skills: A dark wing's  monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 6 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival. 
Racial Feats: A dark wing's  monstrous humanoid levels give it two feats. 
+3 natural armor bonus. 
Natural Weapons: Claw (1d4) and bite (1d6). 
Special Attacks (see above):  group snatch
Special Qualities (see above):  light sensitivity, silent glide
Automatic Languages: Dark Wing. Bonus Languages: Common, Goblin, Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Orc. 
Favored Class: ?. 
Level Adjustment +2.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 29, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Favored Class: ?



Barbarian, Fighter or Ranger? Can you rage whilst flying?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Nov 29, 2005)

Before we finish this guy (or any of the other creatures being worked on now), shouldn't we post the 10 conversions we've gotten done to the CC?


----------



## Shade (Nov 29, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Barbarian, Fighter or Ranger? Can you rage whilst flying?
> 
> Regards
> Mortis




I see no limits on raging while flying.  Honestly, any of these classes could work.  Rogue could work, too.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 29, 2005)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> Before we finish this guy (or any of the other creatures being worked on now), shouldn't we post the 10 conversions we've gotten done to the CC?




i want to get to that, but i've been busy...  besides, there is nothing saying that those have to be posted before more conversions are finished.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 29, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Barbarian, Fighter or Ranger? Can you rage whilst flying?



In (my) order of preference: Barbarian, ranger, rogue, fighter (I think they're too primal for the fighter class)

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Nov 29, 2005)

barbarian probably is the best.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

updating in homebrews.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 30, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> updating in homebrews.




Looks good 

Just a few things.



> Most dark wing leaders are ?.



Level 4/5 Barbarians (I favour 5)


> Dark wing clerics worship ?



? I don't really know the standard 3.5 gods 


> and can choose any two of the following domains: ?.



Darkness, Strength, Trickery?

One more thing, are we going to stat out the young?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Level 4/5 Barbarians (I favour 5)




That works for me.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> ? I don't really know the standard 3.5 gods




Actually, we don't need one if it wasn't mentioned somewhere.  I just cut n' pasted from the bugbear, who had a known god.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Darkness, Strength, Trickery?




Since Darkness isn't a core domain, I'd probably replace it with Evil.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> One more thing, are we going to stat out the young?




Probably not, as most humanoid/monstrous humanoid races do not.  Usually they are just listed as "noncombatants" on the organization line.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 30, 2005)

You may want to check out an index of Mystaran conversions I've posted on the WotC's Mystara board.

You can take any creature that doesn't have a 3.5e conversion as a request   

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

as for the gods, it's not supremely important that we assign one.  or, we could go "gods of survival and nature", you know something generic.  but in the end, i would leave it off entirely unless we are somehow obligated to provide that.  

as for the young, i am not particularly concerned with them, but if you really really really want them, we could cook up a stat block.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 30, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Since Darkness isn't a core domain, I'd probably replace it with Evil.



it's in the SRD though 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

It is?  Weird...the online SRD I was looking at doesn't have it.    

I have it listed as being in Player's Guide to Faerûn and Book of Vile Darkness.  Could you give me the link to the SRD you were viewing?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 30, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> It is?  Weird...the online SRD I was looking at doesn't have it.
> 
> I have it listed as being in Player's Guide to Faerûn and Book of Vile Darkness.  Could you give me the link to the SRD you were viewing?




Here you go link 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Mortis (Nov 30, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> as for the young, i am not particularly concerned with them, but if you really really really want them, we could cook up a stat block.



I'm not that bothered, but they where mentioned in the original write up.



			
				DMR2 said:
			
		

> There will always be 2d6 young roosting on ledges around the caves. These young dark wings will fight if threatened or attacked (AC 8; HD 1-1; #AT 1 bite; Damage 1d3).




Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

Thanks!

Ahh...it was added with the Deities & Demigods stuff.   That explains it.  So yeah, go with Darkness.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

so yea or nay on stats for the youngsters then?


"Clerics are rare among dark wings, but a dark wing cleric has access to two of the following domains: Darkness, Strength, or Trickery."


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

I say nay, and yea to the domain business.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

that works for me - updating!


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

Weight:  125 (like succubus) to 150 pounds (like erinyes)?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

150 - it is short, but definitely meatier than an elf.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 5, 2005)

Yeah 150.

This one about done? 

Just need to see what's in Dragon 339 now, but the Gyerian's next in the queue.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Dec 6, 2005)

it is done.  and the waiting game begins.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 12, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> it is done.  and the waiting game begins.



The waiting is over. 



			
				Pure Puppet said:
			
		

> From Mystara, we have Dusanu, an undead-like plant, the Nagpa template, and the Phanaton, which seems to be the union of a raccoon and a flying monkey.




I'll have to see the article but a Nagpa template sounds rather odd.   

So the Gyerian next?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 12, 2005)

Wow...of all the remaining Mystara critters, they picked three we've already done.    

I guess that means they were popular requests after all.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 12, 2005)

like i said elsewhere, i think two or three of those mystara monsters were in our proposal.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 12, 2005)

i'll get the gyerian together when i have a free moment.  what sources was it in, to make my job easier?    i know AC9 at the very least...


----------



## Shade (Dec 12, 2005)

All World of Sulerin lists is Mystara Appendix.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 12, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> what sources was it in, to make my job easier?    i know AC9 at the very least...



DMR2, Mystaran Monstrous Compendium (I think). Don't know if it showed up in any modules.

<edit>
Quick Google

Mystery of the Snow Pearls
Code: CM5
TSR No.: 9154

Product Line: D&D Companion, Mystara
Type of Product: Adventure for 1 (solo) elf of level 10
Primary Credits: Anne Gray McCready
Publication Date: 1985
Cover Price: 
Components: A 32 page module, foldout map, and Magic Viewer.

New spells: None
New magical items: None
New creatures: Ash Crawler, Gyerian

Description: One of four magical, snow white pearls has been stolen, and its up to the elven character to solve the mystery surrounding its theft, and return it.

Notes: This module is designed for use by a player without a DM. Everything is masked in a red haze pattern, and the magic viewer must be used to read the text.

Contributed by: Frank Schober (fschober@uceng.uc.edu)
</edit>

Taken from this useful document.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Dec 12, 2005)

weird!


----------



## Shade (Dec 12, 2005)

I remember those weird modules!   You could use the old red cellophane they wrapped bananas in back in the day as well.  (Man, I feel old now).


----------



## BOZ (Dec 12, 2005)

my first-ever D&D game was in 1987 (and regular gaming didn't start until a few years later), so i missed out on plenty!


----------



## Mortis (Dec 13, 2005)

Ok just to save BOZ some scanning time, we have:

*From DMR2*

Gyerian

Armor Class:	3
Hit Dice:	3 (S to M)
Move:	150’(50’)
Attacks:	2 claws/1 peck
Damage:	1d4/1d4/2d4
No. Appearing:	1d4 (10d4)
Save As:	Fighter: 3
Morale:	8
Treasure Type:	K, O
Intelligence:	8
Alignment:	Lawful
XP Value:	35

Monster Type: Monster (Rare)
These bird-like creatures are usually three to four feet tall, but may be as tall as six feet. Their bodies are covered with fine, pale feathers, and their arms have longer feathers that give them a wing-like appearance. However, gyerians cannot fly. They possess thin, graceful hands.
Gyerians are very excitable, extremely nervous, and impatient. They do not care for humans, but get along with elves. They grow and eat nuts, berries, roots, insects, fish, and snails. They are also known for their fascination with bright, shiny objects, and treasure gems and baubles for their appearance rather than their value.
Gyerians live in small settlements built on plains or in wild woods. Their villages are always named Gyer, and are composed of nesting huts woven from straw and branches, daubed with mud. These villages are at best only temporary domiciles, for they migrate east to west every spring, returning in the fall.
Gyerians attack by kicking with their three-toed feet and jabbing with their hooked, beak-like nose. However, most gyerians are cowards and will either babble, flee, or cry. The very nervous ones have been known to sneeze – and little can stand up to the sneeze of a gyerian. If a gyerian sneezes, anyone in front of it must roll less than his or her Dexterity on 1d20 or be bowled over for 1d4 points of damage. She or he must spend one round standing up again.
For every 10 gyerians in a flock, there is also one cockrobin (AC 2; HD 5; Damage 1d6/1d6/2d6). A flock is led by one rooster (AC 1; HD 7; Damage 1d8/1d8/2-16).
Terrain: Open, Woods

*And from the MMC*

Gyerian
Climate/Terrain:	Temperate plain or forest
Frequency:	Rare
Organization:	Flock
Activity Cycle:	Day
Diet:	Omnivore
Intelligence:	Average (8-10)
Treasure:	K (W)
Alignment:	Chaotic good
No. Appearing:	2d4
Armor Class:	3
Movement:	15
Hit Dice:	3
THACO:	17
No. of Attacks:	3
Damage/Attack:	1d4 (claw)/1d4 (claw)/2d4 (peck)
Special Attacks:	Sneeze
Special Defenses:	Nil
Magic Resistance:	Nil
Size:	S-M (3’-6’ tall)
Morale:	Average (8)
XP Value:	120
	270 (cockrobin)
	1,400 (rooster)

Gyerians – excitable, birdlike humanoids – make their home in the grasslands and forests of Mystara. Although flightless, gyerians are migratory beings that travel in flocks, moving east to west every spring and returning in the fall.
The creatures usually stand 3 to 4 feet tall, but certain specimens may grow as tall as 6 feet. They all have bulging eyes and sharp, hooked beaks. Fine feathers ranging from light tan to deep brown cover their bodies, while their arms sprout longer feathers to give them the appearance of wings. Gyerians possess long, graceful, four-fingered hands and powerful, clawed feet.

Combat: The naturally nervous gyerians never seek out fights Instead, they flee whenever the opportunity presents itself. However, when retreat seems impossible or when their young face a threat, the creatures attack by clawing with their powerful, three-toed feet and jabbing with their hooked, beaklike noses.
While fighting, a gyerian emits a series of loud squeals and cries. Others of its flock (2d4 total) within hearing distance (normally a half mile) come to the aid of their fellow in ld4 rounds, as long as they make a successful morale check.
Additionally, a very nervous gyerian may emit a tremendous sneeze so powerful that anyone in front of the creature must make a Dexterity check or be bowled over for ld4 points of damage. Any such unfortunates then must spend the next round recovering their footing. A gyerian may sneeze any time it feels particularly nervous (even when not in battle!), but it cannot use any other attack in the same round.

Habitat/Society: As social creatures, gyerians live in flocks of 10d4 individuals. Their settlements, simple affairs known as gyer, are composed of nesting huts woven from straw and branches and daubed with mud. Plains gyerians hide their dwellings among tall grasses, while those in the woods secrete them within tall bushes. They build these homes quickly each year, meaning them to last only until migration. Each flock has its own migratory pattern and settlement areas; a gyerian separated from its flock always can find its way back to one of its flock's nesting grounds

The extremely shy gyerians generally avoid contact with other humanoids, particularly humans. However, they get along well with elves, and feel less nervous defiling with humans if elves are present.

Gyerians go through elaborate mating rituals in the early spring. For several weeks, males of the species grow feathers in vivid greens and blues over most of their bodies. During these weeks, the males put on complicated displays ranging from beautiful dances to sparring contests involving two Go five creatures. Only during this time of year do male gyerians go out of their way to attack humans or other humanoids. This behaviour ends when the mating season does.
Female gyerians lay ld4 eggs, which they guard fiercely. The eggs hatch in late summer, producing young that quickly become mobile. The fussy gyerian mothers tend to keep their fledglings no more than a few wingspans from themselves.

Ecology: Gyerians are restless fishers and gatherers that remain constantly on the lookout for the berries, roots, insects, fish, and snails that make up their diet. A particularly hungry gyerian will resort to eating grasses or even hunting rabbits, giant rats, or other small game.
These creatures treasure gems and other shiny objects solely for their pretty appearance. They often fill their homes with such items, and the higher-ranking members of a flock adorn their bodies with shiny rings, necklaces, etc. Their fascination with such objects can become so extreme that, on occasion, a group of gyerians may enter human encampments in search of

Cockrobins
One of every 10 gyerians is a larger specimen known as a cockrobin, a foe more formidable than an average gyerian (AC 2; HD 5; damage ld6/ld6/2d12; size 5+ feet tall).

Roosters
A flock of gyerians always follows a powerful rooster. These leaders are very tall (6 feet) and strong (AC 1; HD 7; damage 1d8/1d8/2d16), and less likely to flee combat (morale 12). With the rooster present, normal gyerians have a morale of 10.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Dec 13, 2005)

excellent... let me find the text from the module, and we will begin.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 15, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> (Man, I feel old now).



And that was before your birthday.    

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 15, 2005)

Ouch!    

I now have this special ablity:

You Kids Get Off My Damn Lawn (Ex):  Once every 1d4 rounds, Shade can bellow this phrase.  All humanoids creatures within 60 feet that have not reached adulthood must succeed on a DC X Will save or leave the premises.  This is a sonic, mind-affecting, compulsion effect.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 15, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I now have this special ablity:
> 
> You Kids Get Off My Damn Lawn (Ex):



Hang on a minute, I thought you were buying off your LA.   

Never mind, next year, you'll get the 'Turn down that Damn Noise (Su)' ability. It's a supernatural ability coz you can hear it no matter the volume.   

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 15, 2005)

Getting back on topic, that sneeze ability is hilarious!   Are we still waiting on the module text?


----------



## Mortis (Dec 15, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Are we still waiting on the module text?



I think so, but we could always make a start.   

Small Monstrous Humanoid
Environment: Temperate plains or forest
Alignment: Usually Chaotic Good



> that sneeze ability is hilarious!



Isn't it.    How about something along the lines of

Sneeze (Ex): Whenever a gyerian fails a Will save, the gyerian lets out a powerful sneeze. This is a 5? ft. line of ? Any creature (May need a size stipulation) struck by this line must make a Reflex save DC:X or take 1d4 points of damage and be knocked prone.

Although it cannot fly perhaps it's feathered arms could give it a racial bonus to Jump.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Dec 16, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Are we still waiting on the module text?




yes, please be patient - when people get old, they move a lot slower. 

i've got enough going on at the moment; we can hold off on this one until next week.


----------



## Shade (Dec 16, 2005)

No problem.  I was just making sure I hadn't missed something (as old people tend to do).


----------



## BOZ (Dec 20, 2005)

for what it's worth:

Mystery of the Snow Pearls

Gyerian

Armor Class: 6
Hit Dice: 3+1
Move: 150' (50')
Attacks: 2 claws/1 peck
Damage: 1-4/1-4/2-8
No Appearing: 1-4 (10-40)
Save As: Fighter 3
Morale: 8
Treasure Type: K, O
Alignment: Lawful
XP Value: 35

These intelligent bird-like creatures are generally 3 to 4 feet tall, but may be as tall as 6 feet. Their bodies are covered with fine pale feathers; their arms have longer feathers that give them a wing-like appearance. However, Gyerians cannot fly. They possess thin graceful hands.

Gyerians are very excitable, and extremely nervous and impatient. They do not care for humans, but get along with elves. They grow and eat nuts, berries, roots, insects, fish and snails. They are also known for their fascination with bright shiny objects, and treasure grills and baubles.

	Gyerians live in small settlements built on plains or in wild woods. Their villages are always named Gyer, and are composed of nesting hills woven from straw and branches, daubed with mud. These villages are at best only temporary domiciles for they migrate east to west every spring, returning in the fall.

Gyerians attack by kicking with their three-toed feet and jabbing with their hooked, beaklike nose. However, most Gyerians are cowards and will either babble, flee, or cry. The very nervous ones have been known to sneeze; little can stand up to the sneeze of a Gyerian. If a Gyerian sneezes, anyone in front of it must roll less than his Dexterity on 1d20 or be bowled over for 1-4 points of damage, and then must spend one round standing, up again.

For every 10 Gyerians in a flock, there is one cockrobin (AC 2; HD 5; Atk 1-6/1-6/2-12). A flock is led by one rooster (AC 1; HD 7; Atk 1-8/ 1-8/2-16).


AC9

Gyerian

Armour Class: 3
Hit Dice: 3 (S to M)
Move: 150' (50')
Attacks: 2 claws/1 peck
Damage: 1-4/1-4/2-8
No. Appearing: 1-4 (10-40)
Save As: Fighter: 3
Morale: 8
Treasure Type: K, O
Intelligence: 8
Alignment: Lawful
XP Value: 35

These bird-like creatures are usually 3 to 4 feet tall, but may be as tall as 6 feet. Their bodies are covered with fine pale feathers, and their arms have longer feathers that give them a wing-like appearance. However, gyerians cannot fly. They possess thin, graceful hands.

Gyerians are very excitable, extremely nervous and impatient. They do not care for humans, but get along with elves. They grow and eat nuts, berries, roots, insects, fish, and snails. They are also known for their fascination with bright, shiny objects, and treasure gems and baubles for their appearance rather than their value.

Gyerians live in small settlements built on plains or in wild woods. Their villages are always named Gyer, and are composed of nesting huts woven from straw and branches, daubed with mud. These villages are at best only temporary domiciles, for they migrate east to west every spring, returning in the fall.

Gyerians attack by kicking with their three-toed feet and jabbing with their hooked, beak-like nose. However, most gyerians are cowards and will either babble, flee, or cry. The very nervous ones have been known to sneeze - and little can stand up to the sneeze of a gyerian. If a gyerian sneezes, anyone in front of it must roll less than his or her dexterity on 1d20 or be bowled over for 1-4 points of damage, and then must spend one round standing up again.

For every 10 gyerians in a flock, there is also one cockrobin (AC 2; HD 5; Damage 1-6/1-6/2-12). A flock is led by one rooster (AC 1; HD 7; Damage 1-8/1-8/2-16).


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## BOZ (Dec 20, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Small Monstrous Humanoid
> Environment: Temperate plains or forest
> Alignment: Usually Chaotic Good




weird, isn't it, how they went from Lawful to CG?

on the issue of size, since they can be up to 6 feet tall, i think we should emulate what the sahuagin does for the Advancement line.


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## Mortis (Dec 20, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> weird, isn't it, how they went from Lawful to CG?



That's obviously a legacy of OD&D where Lawful tended to equal Good. And I suppose you can only have so many LG or LN creatures.



> on the issue of size, since they can be up to 6 feet tall, i think we should emulate what the sahuagin does for the Advancement line.



<checks SRD>

Yeah, that would be fine.

Regards
Mortis


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## Mortis (Dec 20, 2005)

Thinking ahead to skills.


			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> the males put on complicated displays ranging from beautiful dances to sparring contests involving two To five creatures.



Perform (dance)?


> Ecology: <snip> may enter human encampments in search of



Oops! I seem to have missed some text.   



> Roosters
> A flock of gyerians always follows a powerful rooster. These leaders are very tall (6 feet) and strong (AC 1; HD 7; damage 1d8/1d8/2d16), and less likely to flee combat (morale 12). With the rooster present, normal gyerians have a morale of 10.



Re-reading this, seems to suggest that is is only the Roosters (and possibly the cockrobins) that are Medium size. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2005)

So, did we decide on a type yet?   Magical beast?


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## Mortis (Dec 20, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> So, did we decide on a type yet?   Magical beast?



I had them down as Monstrous Humanoid. They seem too humanoid for magical beast but let's see what the others think.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2005)

Yeah, rereading it I caught their hands this time.  The first time I read through I thought they just had wings, so with hands I'd say monstrous humanoid makes more sense.


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## BOZ (Dec 20, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Thinking ahead to skills.
> 
> Perform (dance)?




that's a possibility.  it only has 6 ranks, but we could always work in some quirky stuff like that.    they could be battle-dancers from Dragon Compendium 1!  



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Re-reading this, seems to suggest that is is only the Roosters (and possibly the cockrobins) that are Medium size.




regardless, i will keep the advancement as we decided, and dedicate some flavor text to explaining this.


some preliminary stats for the gyerian:

*Gyerian*
Small Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice: 3d8+X (X hp) 
Initiative: +X
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/-X
Attack: 
Full Attack: 2 claws +X melee (1d4+X) and beak +X melee (2d4+X)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: sneeze
Special Qualities: darkvision 60 ft
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 8, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 6 Perform (dance)?
Feats: 2

Environment: Temperate plains and forest
Organization: 1-4, 2-8, flock 10-40
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: K, O - or - K (W)
Alignment: Usually chaotic good
Advancement: 4-6 HD (Small); 7-9 HD (Medium), or by character class
Level Adjustment: +X


COMBAT

Originally found in (Mystery of the Snow Pearls), and AC9 - Creature Catalogue (1986), DMR2 - Creature Catalog (1993), and Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix (1994).


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## Mortis (Dec 20, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 8, Wis X, Cha X



Str 8-11, Dex 11-14, Con 9-11, Int 8, Wis 11-13, Cha 9-11?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2005)

Other avian humanoid ability scores:

Kenku: +2 Dexterity, -2 Strength. 
Aaracokraa: Str 9, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10

Both are Medium.  Since the gyerian is Small, I'd recommend even lower Str and Con and higher Dex.

Maybe Str 6-9, Dex 13-16, Con 7-10, Int 8, Wis 11-13, Cha 9-11?


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## Mortis (Dec 20, 2005)

Organization: Foraging party (1-4), wing (5-8), flock (10-40 plus 100% noncombatants plus 1 Xth-level cockrobin per 10 gyerian plus 1  Xth-level rooster).

A couple of things previously posted.

Sneeze (Ex): Whenever a gyerian fails a Will save, the gyerian lets out a powerful sneeze. This is a 5? ft. line of ? Any creature, of Medium size or smaller, struck by this line must make a Reflex save DC:X or take 1d4 points of damage and be knocked prone.

Although it cannot fly perhaps it's feathered arms could give it a racial bonus to Jump.

Regards
Mortis


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## Mortis (Dec 20, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Maybe Str 6-9, Dex 13-16, Con 7-10, Int 8, Wis 11-13, Cha 9-11?



Ok then, how about

Str 7, Dex 15, Con 9, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 10?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2005)

That'll work.


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## BOZ (Dec 20, 2005)

it has a very high AC (3 translates to 17) for a small, lower-level critter.  +1 for size, +2 for Dex means i would have to give it +4 natural to reach 17.  got any other options in mind or is that OK for nat armor?

should the gyerian get another Will save to avoid sneezing (when it wants to avoid doing that)?  i was thinking that we could give the DC some size-based mods (the same as for grapple checks) - little guys will go flying, but big guys are likely to remain rooted.


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2005)

Bump the Dex up to at least 16, although I could see even going up to 18.  That would leave +2 natural, which is much more "realistic".

As for the sneeze, why not just use the wind effects?  If it were windstorm-equivalent,
a Small or smaller creature is blown away and a Medium creature is knocked down (assuming they don't save).  

Knocked Down = Creatures are knocked prone by the force of the wind. Flying creatures are instead blown back 1d6×10 feet.
Blown Away = Creatures on the ground are knocked prone and rolled 1d4×10 feet, taking 1d4 points of nonlethal damage per 10 feet. Flying creatures are blown back 2d6×10 feet and take 2d6 points of nonlethal damage due to battering and buffeting.


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## Mortis (Dec 21, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Bump the Dex up to at least 16, although I could see even going up to 18.  That would leave +2 natural, which is much more "realistic".



18 would work. 



> As for the sneeze, why not just use the wind effects?  If it were windstorm-equivalent,
> a Small or smaller creature is blown away and a Medium creature is knocked down (assuming they don't save).



Probably the easiest way of doing it. 

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Dec 21, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> should the gyerian get another Will save to avoid sneezing (when it wants to avoid doing that)?  i was thinking that we could give the DC some size-based mods (the same as for grapple checks) - little guys will go flying, but big guys are likely to remain rooted.




However, if we are going the route Shade suggested, we could have larger than Medium creatures be checked for one round?


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2005)

We could do that.


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## BOZ (Dec 21, 2005)

Sneeze (Ex): When a gyerian fails a Will save, it must succeed on a DC 15 Will save or let out a powerful sneeze (the gyerian can fail the Will save if it wishes) as a 5-foot line?.  Creatures struck by this line must succeed on a DC 10 Reflex save or be affected by this sneeze: Small or smaller creatures are blown away, Medium creatures are knocked down and prone, and Large or larger creatures are checked for one round.  The save DC is Constitution-based?.


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2005)

Hmmm...since it happens when it is "very nervous", we could expand it to be triggered not only by a failed Will save but also a failed Concentration check, or if it is affected by any fear effect, or even if it is flanked.


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## BOZ (Dec 21, 2005)

how about when threatened in combat?


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2005)

That would make me nervous.


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## BOZ (Dec 21, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Gyerians – excitable, birdlike humanoids ...
> The naturally nervous gyerians never seek out fights. Instead, they flee whenever the opportunity presents itself. However, when retreat seems impossible or when their young face a threat, the creatures attack by clawing with their powerful, three-toed feet and jabbing with their hooked, beaklike noses.
> While fighting, a gyerian emits a series of loud squeals and cries. Others of its flock (2d4 total) within hearing distance (normally a half mile) come to the aid of their fellow in ld4 rounds, as long as they make a successful morale check.
> Additionally, a very nervous gyerian may emit a tremendous sneeze so powerful that anyone in front of the creature must make a Dexterity check or be bowled over for 1d4 points of damage. Any such unfortunates then must spend the next round recovering their footing. A gyerian may sneeze any time it feels particularly nervous (even when not in battle!), but it cannot use any other attack in the same round.
> ...




sounds like this nervousness is pretty prevalent!


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2005)

That it does.


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## BOZ (Dec 21, 2005)

i am thinking of defining what makes them nervous in the flavor text, then just stating "when they get nervous they must make a will save or sneeze" in the combat section.  good or no?


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2005)

That's probably fine, but I'd include a "(see above)" just to be safe.


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## BOZ (Dec 21, 2005)

naturally.    let me find a moment to work on that...


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## BOZ (Dec 21, 2005)

Gyerians are such an excitable people that they get nervous at the drop of a hat.  Just dealing with other humanoids (except for elves) can make a gyerian nervous.  Combat makes them extremely nervous, and a gyerian will flee rather than fight whenever possible, though a gyerian will squeal and squawk to call allies if it cannot escape.  When a gyerian gets particularly nervous it can let out a sneeze so powerful that it bowls over any creature standing in front of it.  Failing a Will save or Concentration check, becoming flanked, or coming under any magical fear effect will almost certainly make a gyerian this nervous.


Sneeze (Ex): When a gyerian becomes nervous (see above) it must succeed on a DC 15 Will save or let out a powerful sneeze (the gyerian can fail the Will save if it wishes) as a 5-foot line?. Creatures struck by this line must succeed on a DC 10 Reflex save or be affected by this sneeze: Small or smaller creatures are blown away, Medium creatures are knocked down and prone, and Large or larger creatures are checked for one round. The save DC is Constitution-based?.


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2005)

I think line and Con-based both work.


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## BOZ (Dec 21, 2005)

so a 5-foot line should affect any single creature right next to it.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2005)

Yep.  Or you could state "affects any one creature adjacent to the gyerian" instead.


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## BOZ (Dec 22, 2005)

that might be better than a 5-foot line.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2005)

Skills:  Listen, Spot, Survival and maybe Hide and Move Silently?
Feats:  Alertness, Stealthy or Weapon Finesse?


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## BOZ (Dec 22, 2005)

alertness and stealthy are actually perfect for such paranoid, cowardly creatures.  

and those skills fit that particular mold just fine.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2005)

Level adjustment +1 (3 natural attacks and a natural armor add up to +2, but Small size reduces it by 1).

Do we need both HD and by character class on advancement line?  

Attack line should be claw.


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## BOZ (Dec 22, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Do we need both HD and by character class on advancement line?




since they can grow to the next size category, i figured i'd emulate the sahuagin.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2005)

Ah...OK.


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## BOZ (Dec 22, 2005)

this way, we can (if you like) come up with stats for the two advanced gyerian types, without adding levels.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2005)

Sounds good.


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## BOZ (Dec 22, 2005)

given the stats we have for the regular gyerian, how about coming up with something for the other fellows:



			
				Mystery of the Snow Pearls said:
			
		

> For every 10 Gyerians in a flock, there is one cockrobin (AC 2; HD 5; Atk 1-6/1-6/2-12). A flock is led by one rooster (AC 1; HD 7; Atk 1-8/ 1-8/2-16).






			
				AC9 said:
			
		

> For every 10 gyerians in a flock, there is also one cockrobin (AC 2; HD 5; Damage 1-6/1-6/2-12). A flock is led by one rooster (AC 1; HD 7; Damage 1-8/1-8/2-16).






			
				DMR2 said:
			
		

> For every 10 gyerians in a flock, there is also one cockrobin (AC 2; HD 5; Damage 1d6/1d6/2d6). A flock is led by one rooster (AC 1; HD 7; Damage 1d8/1d8/2-16).






			
				Mystara MC said:
			
		

> Cockrobins
> One of every 10 gyerians is a larger specimen known as a cockrobin, a foe more formidable than an average gyerian (AC 2; HD 5; damage ld6/ld6/2d12; size 5+ feet tall).
> 
> Roosters
> A flock of gyerians always follows a powerful rooster. These leaders are very tall (6 feet) and strong (AC 1; HD 7; damage 1d8/1d8/2d16), and less likely to flee combat (morale 12). With the rooster present, normal gyerians have a morale of 10.




they would need a HD bump (+2 each) to make them fit into the current advancement rules.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2005)

Sounds good.  So we'll stick with 5 HD for cockrobins and 7 HD for roosters?


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## BOZ (Dec 22, 2005)

we can, or we could increase the HD.  or, we could alter the advancement rules so that 3-4 HD gyerians are Small, and 5-9 HD gyerians are Medium.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2005)

I like the last option best.


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## BOZ (Dec 22, 2005)

easily done.    we can work on those stat blocks later; anything else that needs to be fixed in the meantime?


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2005)

I'd add Jump +2 to skills line to account for speed bonus and Str penalty.

We need to figure out treasure.

Speak Auran and Elven?


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## BOZ (Dec 22, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> We need to figure out treasure.




well, i'd have to look up what K & O were in OD&D rules.

the Mystara MC gave them K for individual (3-18 sp), and the flock would have type W: 5-30 gp, 1-8 pp, 2-16 gems (60%), 1-8 art (50%), and any 2 magic items (60%).


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## Shade (Dec 27, 2005)

Hmmm...so 50% coins/no goods/no items for individuals?   Should we just mention the flock treasure in the Society section?


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## BOZ (Dec 27, 2005)

maybe we can moderate that with the OD&D treasure type results.  anyone have that handy?  types K & O.


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## GrayLinnorm (Dec 27, 2005)

Why don't you just use "Standard" for treasure?

D&D treasure type K was the same as (1e) AD&D treasure type P.  D&D treasure type O is similar to AD&D treasure type T (1-4 scrolls) but it also has a 10% chance for 1-3 special treasures.


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## BOZ (Dec 27, 2005)

yeah... standard treasure does sound a whole lot easier.  

time to work on the bigger fellas: http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2805000&postcount=773


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## Shade (Dec 27, 2005)

Start by advancing the HD, then we'll want to tinker with ability scores, damage, etc.


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## BOZ (Dec 27, 2005)

there's plenty of room for tinkering with these:

*Gyerian, Cockrobin*
Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice: 5d8 (22 hp) 
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (+3 Dex, +X natural), touch 15, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+5
Attack: Claw +2 melee (1d6)
Full Attack: 2 claws +2 melee (1d6) and beak +0 melee (2d6)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Sneeze
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 10
Skills: Hide +X, Jump +X, Listen +X, Move Silently +X, Spot +X, Survival +X
Feats: Alertness, Multiattack (b), Stealthy


*Gyerian, Rooster*
Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice: 7d8 (31 hp) 
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 19 (+3 Dex, +X natural), touch 15, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+7
Attack: Claw +2 melee (1d6+2)
Full Attack: 2 claws +2 melee (1d6+2) and beak +0 melee (2d8+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Sneeze
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 10
Skills: Hide +X, Jump +X, Listen +X, Move Silently +X, Spot +X, Survival +X
Feats: Alertness, Multiattack (b), Stealthy, PLUS ONE


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## Shade (Dec 27, 2005)

The AC needs to go up by 1 and 2, respectively.  We can either bump the Dex to account for this, or increase natural armor.  I vote for the former.

I'd raise Con to 11 and 12, respectively.  This will improve the sneeze DC.

Since the rooster increases morale of other gyerians, perhaps we can give is something similar to the bard's inspire courage ability?

Inspire Courage (Su): The mere presence of a rooster inspires courage in gyerians (including the rooster himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, a gyerian must be within 30 (?) feet and able to see the rooster. The effect lasts for as long as the gyerian remains within 30 feet of the rooster and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected gyerian receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. This is a mind-affecting ability.


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## BOZ (Dec 27, 2005)

your suggestions sound good.

how about this instead:

Inspire Courage (Su): The mere presence of a rooster inspires courage in gyerians (including the rooster himself), bolstering them against fear. To be affected, a gyerian must be within 30 feet and able to see or hear the rooster. The effect lasts for as long as the gyerian remains within 30 feet of the rooster and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected gyerian receives a +2 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects. This is a mind-affecting ability.


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## Shade (Dec 27, 2005)

That works for me.  Should the cockrobin inspire a lesser bonus?


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## BOZ (Dec 27, 2005)

because of the name?  (heheheheheh, i had to say something sooner or later...)

no, it shouldn't get that ability at all.  they're just the local muscle/heavies.


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## Shade (Dec 27, 2005)

Well, you _hung_ in there longer than I'd suspected.


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## BOZ (Dec 27, 2005)

well, i better head this one off before i get jerked around too much.

any other improvements we might want to make?

*Gyerian, Cockrobin*
Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice: 5d8 (22 hp) 
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (+3 Dex, +5 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+5
Attack: Claw +5 melee (1d6)
Full Attack: 2 claws +5 melee (1d6) and beak +3 melee (2d6)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Sneeze
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +7, Will +5
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 10
Skills: Hide +X, Jump +X, Listen +X, Move Silently +X, Spot +X, Survival +X
Feats: Alertness, Multiattack (b), Stealthy


*Gyerian, Rooster*
Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice: 7d8+14 (45 hp) 
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 19 (+3 Dex, +6 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+9
Attack: Claw +9 melee (1d6+2)
Full Attack: 2 claws +9 melee (1d6+2) and beak +7 melee (2d8+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Sneeze
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +8, Will +6
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 10
Skills: Hide +X, Jump +X, Listen +X, Move Silently +X, Spot +X, Survival +X
Feats: Alertness, Multiattack (b), Stealthy, PLUS ONE


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## Shade (Dec 27, 2005)

I'd add Multiattack as the extra feat for the rooster.

Should we raise Cha as well, since they are the leaders of the group?

Otherwise, I think we just need skill ranks.


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## BOZ (Dec 27, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'd add Multiattack as the extra feat for the rooster.




look again.    unless you just mean to de-bonusify it?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Should we raise Cha as well, since they are the leaders of the group?




i was thinking that, yes.  +2? +4?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Otherwise, I think we just need skill ranks.




allrighty then!


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## Shade (Dec 27, 2005)

I'm as blind as a one-eyed cockrobin!    

Weapon Finesse could work.

Cha +2 for cockrobins and +4 for roosters is fine by me.

Maybe 1 skill rank each in Spot and Listen for the cockrobin, and 1 each in Spot, Listen, Hide, and Move Silently for the rooster?


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## BOZ (Dec 27, 2005)

i'm not sure if we have the gyerian's skill ranks correct in the first place?  it should have 6, but i seem to get Hide 1, Listen 2, Move Silently 1, Spot 2, Survival 2; am i missing something?


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## Shade (Dec 28, 2005)

Let's break it down:

Hide +11, (1 rank, +4 size, +4 Dex, +2 Stealthy), Listen +5 (2 ranks, +1 Wis, +2 Alertness), Move Silently +7 (1 rank, +4 Dex, +2 Stealthy), Spot +5 (2 ranks, +1 Wis, +2 Alertness), Survival +3 (2 ranks, +1 Wis)

Yep, 2 ranks too many.  Drop Listen and Spot by 1 each?


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## BOZ (Dec 28, 2005)

*Gyerian, Cockrobin*
Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice: 5d8 (22 hp) 
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (+3 Dex, +5 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+5
Attack: Claw +5 melee (1d6)
Full Attack: 2 claws +5 melee (1d6) and beak +3 melee (2d6)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Sneeze
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +7, Will +5
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 12
Skills: Hide +6, Jump +4, Listen +5, Move Silently +6, Spot +5, Survival +3
Feats: Alertness, Multiattack (b), Stealthy

A cockrobin is a larger specimen of gyerian, usually at least 5 feet tall.  A cockrobin is a more formidable foe than a typical gyerian, and often serves as a flock's defender.

Sneeze (Ex): The save DC for a cockrobin's sneeze is 12.

*Gyerian, Rooster*
Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice: 7d8+14 (45 hp) 
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 19 (+3 Dex, +6 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+9
Attack: Claw +10 melee (1d6+2)
Full Attack: 2 claws +10 melee (1d6+2) and beak +8 melee (2d8+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Sneeze
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, inspire courage
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +8, Will +6
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 14
Skills: Hide +7, Jump +6, Listen +5, Move Silently +7, Spot +5, Survival +3
Feats: Alertness, Multiattack (b), Stealthy, Weapon Finesse

A rooster is the leader of a gyerian flock.  A rooster is very strong and tall for a gyerian, being about 6 feet in height.  A rooster is much less likely to flee from combat, and in fact inspires courage in other gyerians.

Sneeze (Ex): The save DC for a rooster's sneeze is 14.

Inspire Courage (Su): The mere presence of a rooster inspires courage in gyerians (including the rooster himself), bolstering them against fear. To be affected, a gyerian must be within 30 feet and able to see or hear the rooster. The effect lasts for as long as the gyerian remains within 30 feet of the rooster and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected gyerian receives a +2 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects. This is a mind-affecting ability.


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## Shade (Dec 28, 2005)

Lookin' good!


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## BOZ (Dec 28, 2005)

updating.


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## Shade (Dec 28, 2005)

For CR, I'd stick with the monster advancement rules for Monstrous Humanoids (+1 per 3 HD added), making the cockrobins the same CR as the standard gyerian, and the rooster 1 higher.  How about CR 2 (3 for roosters)?


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## BOZ (Dec 28, 2005)

does a gyerian really qualify for CR 2?  is it the BAB?


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## Shade (Dec 28, 2005)

I just compared it to a bugbear (also CR 2 and 3 HD) and lizardfolk (CR 1 and 2 HD).  Its HD, BAB, number of attacks, and sneeze ability are enough to justify CR 2, methinks.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 28, 2005)

OK then; updating again.


----------



## Shade (Dec 28, 2005)

I think it's finally finished.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 28, 2005)

woohoo!  guess what - that makes 10 by my reckoning.


----------



## Shade (Dec 28, 2005)

Yes indeed.


----------



## BOZ (Jun 19, 2006)

OK, time to ressurect the hutaakan.  

as far as i can tell, i never updated my notes because i hadn't been keeping up with all the discussion on the thread - and there was quite a bit, as you will see in a moment.  

i think i was able to save everything, or at least everything that matters.  first of all, here are the original stats from the 5 different sources it appeared in.  


B10 - Night's Dark Terror
HUTAAKAN (Jackal-man)

	Priest	 | Warrior	| Other
ARMOUR CLASS:	6	| 5 | 8
HIT DICE:	2	 | 1 | 1-1
MOVE:	90' (30') 	| 90' (30')	| 90' (30')
ATTACKS:	1 weapon or 1 spell	| 1 weapon	| 1 weapon
DAMAGE:		By weapon	| By weapon 	| By weapon
NO. APPEARING.	see below
SAVE AS:	Cleric: 2  | Fighter 1  | Normal Man
MORALE:	8  | 9  | 6
TREASURE TYPE:	S	| S  | S
ALIGNMENT:	Neutral  | Neutral  | Neutral
XP VALUE:	25	| 10 | 5

The race of Hutaakans are tall, slender, humanoid creatures   with jackal-like heads. Their bodies are exactly like those of humans except that their hands and feet are narrow with claw-like nails. All Hutaakans have infravision (range 60') and have the same chance of moving silently as a thief of the equivalent level.

The attitudes and life-style of the Hutaakans are described on page 47.

Priests: The life of the Hutaakans centres on their ancient religion and so there are many clerics amongst their number who carry out the various rites. Most Hutaakan clerics have 2 hit dice and one spell, but some are of higher levels (with corresponding hit dice and spells). The higher level clerics are the Hutaakans' leaders.

Warriors: The Hutaakans have never adapted well to the arts of war, and have few warriors.

Others: The remaining  Hutaakans include  not only the old, young and sick, but also those craftsmen and artisans who have no skill with arms.  These Hutaakans normall fight only in self-defence.

Weapons & armour:   Priests   - mace (1d6); leather armour. Warriors - short sword (1d6), spear (1d6)	or sling (1d4);	leather armour and shield. Others - club (1d4) or dagger  (1d4); no armour.



AC9
HUTAAKAN
Priest  | Warrior | Other
Armour Class: 6 | 5 | 8
Hit Dice: 2* | 1 | 1-1
Move: 90' (30') | 90' (30') | 90' (30')
Attacks: 1 weapon or 1 spell | 1 weapon | 1 weapon
Damage: By weapon  | By weapon | By weapon
No. Appearing: 2-5 (5-50) | 5-8 (9-90) | 0 (20-200)
Save As: Cleric: 2 | Fighter: 1 | Normal Man
Morale: 8 | 9 | 6
Treasure Type: S | S | S
Intelligence: 11 | 10 | 9
Alignment: Neutral | Neutral | Neutral
XP Value: 25 | 10 | 5

The race of Hutaakans are tall, slender, humanoid creatures with jackal-like heads. Their bodies are exactly like those of humans except that their hands and feet are narrow with claw-like nails. All Hutaakans have infravision (range 60') and have the same chance of moving silently as a thief of the equivalent level.

Although in ancient times the Hutaakan empire covered much of what is now the Duchy of Karameikos (see Expert Rules, Map #1, and module B10, Night's Dark Terror), they now live in isolated communities in the mountains north of Karameikos. There are many craftsmen and artists amongst their number, but all wear long, sombre-coloured robes with the occasional simple item of jewellery.

Priests: The life of the Hutaakans revolves around their ancient religion and so there are many clerics among their number to carry out the numerous daily rituals. Most Hutaakan clerics have 2 Hit Dice and one spell, but some are of higher levels (maximum 11th) with corresponding Hit Dice and spells. The higher level clerics are the Hutaakans' leaders. All are usually armed with maces.

Warriors: Since the Hutaakans have never adapted well to the arts of war, they have few warriors. Those that do exist usually wear leather armour, carry shields, and wield short swords, spears, or slings.

Others: The remaining Hutaakans include not only the old, young, and sick, but also those craftsmen and artisans who have no skill with arms. These Hutaakans will only fight in self-defence, using clubs or daggers, but without the benefit of armour.

The Hutaakans are a haughty, callous race, dominated by their priests. However, they see themselves as a sensitive, civilised, intellectual people, suffering as a result of their cultured nature. They are not boldly aggressive, but fight without mercy when forced. They prefer to ambush enemies and attack with missile weapons if possible.



DMR2 - Creature Catalog

Hutaakan

Code:
		Priest		Warrior		Other
Armor Class:	6		5		8
Hit Dice:	2* (M)		1 (M)		1-1 (M)
Move:		90’ (30’)	90’ (30’)	90’ (30’)
Attacks:	1 weapon 	1 weapon	1 weapon
		or 1 spell
Damage:		By weapon	By weapon	By weapon
No. Appearing:	1d4+1 (5d10)	1d4+4 (9d10)	0 (20d10)
Save As:	Cleric: 2	Fighter: 1	Normal Man
Morale:		8		9		6
Treasure Type:	S		S		S
Intelligence:	11		10		9
Alignment:	Neutral		Neutral		Neutral
XP Value	25		10		5

Monster Type: Humanoid (Very Rare).
The race of Hutaakans are tall, slender, humanoid creatures with jackal-like heads. Their bodies are exactly like those of humans except that their hands and feet are narrow with claw-like nails. All Hutaakans have infravision (60-foot range) and have the same chance of moving silently as a thief of the equivalent level as their Hit Dice.
In the Known World, the Hutaakan empire once covered much of what is now the Duchy of Karameikos. They now live in isolated communities in the mountains north of Karameikos. In other game worlds the Hutaakans should be similarly isolated, although they may in the past have ruled a grand nation.
Although there are many craftsmen and artists among the Hutaakans, all Hutaakans wear long, somber-colored robes with the occasional simple item of jewelry.
Priests: The life of the Hutaakans revolves around their ancient religion. Many clerics among their number are needed to carry out the numerous daily rituals. Most Hutaakan clerics have 2 Hit Dice and one spell, but some are of higher levels (maximum 11th) with corresponding Hit Dice and spells. The higher level clerics are the Hutaakans’ leaders. All are usually armed with maces.
Warriors: Since the Hutaakans have never adapted well to the arts of war, they have few warriors. Those that do exist usually wear leather armor, carry shields, and wield short swords, spears, or slings.
Others: The remaining Hutaakans include not only the old, young, and sick, but also those craftsmen and artisans who have no skill with arms. These Hutaakans will only fight in self-defense, using clubs or daggers, but without the benefit of armor.
The Hutaakans are a haughty, callous race, dominated by their priests. However, they see themselves as a sensitive, civilized, intellectual people, suffering as a result of their cultured nature. They are not boldly aggressive, but fight without mercy when forced. They prefer to ambush enemies and attack with missile weapons if possible.
Terrain: Mountain, Ruins, Lost World, or other isolated locales.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Mystara MC
HUTAAKAN

Code:
			Priest		Warrior		Other
CLIMATE/TERRAIN:	Temperate mountains or ruins (All)
FREOUENCY:		Very rare	Very rare	Very rare
ORGANIZATION:		Town		Town		Town
ACTIVITY CYCLE:		Night		Night		Night
DIET:			Omnivore	Omnivore	Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE:		Very (11-12)	Average (8-10)	Average (8-10)
TREASURE.		S (I)		S (I)		S (I)
ALIGNMENT:		Lawful neutral	Lawful neutral	Lawful neutral
NO. APPEARING:		ld4+1		ld4+4		1d10
ARMOR CLASS:		7 (10)		6 (10)		10
MOVEMENT:		9		9		9
HIT DICE:		2		1+1		1
THACO:			19		19		20
No. OF ATTACKS:		1		1		1
DAMAGE/ATTACK:		ld6+1 (mace)	ld6 (sword/spear)	ld4 (club)
SPECIAL ATTACKS:	Spells		Nil		Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES:	Move silently (20%) (All)	
MAGIC RESISTANCE:	Nil		Nil		Nil
SIZE:			M (6' tall)	M (6' tall)	M (6' tall)
MORALE:			Steady (11)	Steady (12)	Average (9)
XP VALUE:		65		15		7

The Hutaakans are a haughty, callous race, dominated by their priests.
The tall, slender, humanoid Hutaakans have jackal-like heads but otherwise resemble ascetic humans with narrow hands and feet. Hutaakans often decorate or carve their heavy clawlike ,I nails to represent their rank and station in life. Even the most simple and unassuming of these creatures wears long, somber robes, with the occasional addition of a simple piece of jewelry.
They speak in fluting, mellifluous tones using a complex language possessed of a haunting, musical quality.

Combat: The Hutaakans are not a boldly aggressive race-they consider themselves above physical with the lesser mortal races (including humans and other humanoids). They will, however, fight without mercy when forced to do so.
Hutaakans prefer strategies involving ambush, and they attack with missile weapons when possible.
Hutaakans other than trained warriors rarely fight. Priests are loath to sully themselves in combat and rarely do battle, save when directly attacked. Instead, they prefer to cast spells and call out instructions from a safe distance. Most priests have 2 Hit Dice and can cast spells like a 2nd-level priest However, the most powerful Hutaakan priests can achieve higher experience levels (up to 11th), with corresponding Hit Dice, spells, and experience point values. These higher-level priests lead Hutaakan society.
In combat, warriors tend to use spears, short swords, and sometimes slings; they typically wear studded leather armor and carry a shield. Priests wear leather armor and carry a shield; they prefer as weapons elaborately carved maces dedicated to one or more of their Immortals. Although other Hutaakans are
not skilled at fighting and wear no armor, they can defend themselves adequately with clubs.
All Hutaakans have infravision (60-foot range and a 20% chance to move silently (as .a thief).

Habitat/Society: In Mystara, the Hutaakan empire once covered much of what is now the Kingdom of Karameikos. Today, the few surviving Hutaakans speak vaguely of a great catastrophe that decimated their brilliant race; the remaining examples of their species live in small, isolated communities scattered throughout the Known World. Hutaakan priests rigidly control these communities and the destinies of the survivors.
In general, the creatures consider themselves a sensitive, civilized, intellectual people forced to suffer as the result of the barbarous world's cruel dominance over their cultured nature.
Ecology: Hutaakans often keep valuable coins, potions, gems, and items of rare beauty on their persons and in their homes.
These people pride themselves on both their good taste and their lack of involvement with the rest of the world.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hollow World Boxed Set
Player’s Guide

Hutaakans
The Hutaakans are jackal-headed humanoids. While bearing a superficial resemblance to gnolls, they are actually an older, far more sophisticated race.
Hutaakans were created by the Immortal Pflarr, one of the patron Immortals of the Nithian people, and as a race have long served that Immortal. Individual Hutaakans can be messengers for the Immortal or just adventurers wandering and learning about the Hollow World.

Appearance and Dress
The Hutaakans are tall, slender, furred humanoids. They are shaped like men, but their heads resemble those of jackals; they have thin hands and feet ending in jackal-like claws. They walk upright and look intelligent; these are no dumb animals wearing clothes.
Hutaakans are divided into three social classes: Priests (who are shamans of Pflarr), functionaries (bureaucrats), and workers (the common Hutaakans). Each class has a distinctive style of dress:
The priests wear a long-sleeved robe reaching to the ground, dyed in a bright color such as white, yellow, light blue, etc., and belted at the waist; over it, they wear a sleeveless over-robe which hangs open at the front, is unbelted, and is dyed in a much darker color such as black, dark blue, or dark red.
The functionaries wear costumes which are identical, except that with them the under-tunic is dark and the over-tunic is light.
The workers wear bright tunics which reach only to the knee, and which are belted at the waist.
They do not wear footwear; their clawed feet are not comfortable in shoes or sandals.
When preparing for war, the Hutaakans don armor over their under-tunics – usually, it’s leather or chain armor.

Customs
The Hutaakans exist to do the will of the Immortal Pflarr. This doesn’t mean that they’re drooling slaves; they’re merely a very devout people.
Most Hutaaka spend almost all their waking hours in the pursuit of their duties. The priest attend to the maintenance of the temples and performance of duties laid down by Pflarr. The functionaries organize the efforts of the workers. The workers farm the fields, herd the herd-beasts, build new towers and homes, clean, repair roads, tend the Hutaakans’ foot-pad riding lizards, and perform every other labor and service task the functionaries require.
The Hutaakans, including the workers, are also very haughty, believing themselves to be the race most favored by their Immortal patron; they tend to condescend when speaking to members of other races. They aren’t consciously snobbish; they’ve just always been taught that they are superior and consequently take a superior tone.

Names
Hutaakan names tend to be three syllables in length. To make a Hutaakan name, choose on prefix, one middle syllable, and one suffix from the lists below:
• Prefixes: Ba-, By, Cha-, Ja-, Ka-, Ki-, Xa-, Xi-.
• Middle Syllables: -chi-, -phor-, -qa-, -si-, -ta-, -ti-, -xa-.
• Suffixes: -edz, -ex, -phix, -qa, -quet, -ta, teq.
The letter ‘q’ is pronounced here as ‘kw’. The letter ‘x’ may be pronounced as a raspy, guttural ‘h’ or as a hissed ‘z’.

Roles and Genders
Hutaakan males and females are equal in rights and duties; it is an individual’s temperament and talent, rather than gender, which dictate what occupation he or she chooses.

Language
The Hutaakan language, called Hutaaka, sounds (to human ears) like coughs and barking. The Hutaakans also speak Nithian and Neathar.

Allies and Enemies
The Hutaakans have no specific allies or enemies. The Brute-Men to the east and Tanagoro to the west keep well away from them. The Nithians to the south know of them but consider them a supernatural race beloved of Pflarr and tend to stay out of Hutaakan territory.

New Character Race: Hutaakans
To create a Hutaakan player character, use these guidelines:

Racial Ability Modifiers
Hutaakans receive a -1 penalty to Strength scores and a +1 to Wisdom. Treat all scores of 2 as 3s, and all scores of 19 as 18s.
Hutaakans are slower-moving than most other races; their basic movement race is 90’ (30’).

Saving Throw Table
Hutaakans make saving throws like clerics of an identical experience level:

Code:
Level				1-4	5-8
Death Ray or Poison		11	9
Magic Wands			12	10
Paralysis or Turn to Stone	14	12
Dragon Breath			16	14
Rod/Staff/Spell			15	13

Experience Table
Hutaakans can reach 8th level, according to the following table:

Code:
Experience	Experience	Hit
Level		Points		Dice
1st		0		1d4
2nd		1,200		2d4
3rd		2,400		3d4
4th		4,800		4d4
5th		9,600		5d4
6th		20,000		6d4
7th		40,000		7d4
8th		80,000		8d4

Gaining New General Skill Slots
Above 8th level, the ceiling for Hutaakan characters, Hutaakans get another general skill slot every 400,000 points earned.

Prime Requisite
The prime requisite of the Hutaaka is Wisdom. A Hutaakan with a Wisdom of 13 gets a +5% experience bonus; one with a Wisdom of 16 gets +10%.

Minimum Scores
Hutaakans are not required to have a minimum score in any attribute.

Weapons and Armor
Hutaakans, because of their slightly tough hides, start play with an Ac of 8. A Hutaakan with a shield will have AC 7, as will one with just leather armor; a Hutaakan with leather and shield will be AC 6.
Hutaakans are limited to the following weapons and types of armor:
• Cultural Melee Weapons: Dagger, sword/short, sword/normal (broad), mace, club, hammer/war, hammer/throwing, staff, whip.
• Cultural Missile Weapons: Crossbow/light, crossbow/heavy, sling.
• Cultural Armor: Leather, scale mail, chain mail, banded mail, shield (Horned shield, knife shield, sword shield, tusked shield not allowed); Barding for riding lizards (leather, scale, chain only) is allowed and weighs the same as barding for horses.
• Shamans Can Use: All cultural weapons except swords, all cultural armor.
• Wokani Can Use: Dagger, staff, sling; no armor.

Shamans and Wokani
Hutaakans cab reach 8th level as shamans and 4th level as wokani. See the Character Creation chapter for the costs on this process.

Special Abilities
Hutaakans are stealthy and eerie. Every Hutaakan has move silently and hide in shadows abilities equal to those of thieves of the same experience level.

Languages
Hutaakans speak their own language, the Neathar common tongue, and the orc and gnoll tongues.

Alignment
All Hutaakans are of the Neutral alignment.

General Skills
All Hutaakans must take one of the following General Skills: Honor Pflarr (W), or Mysticism (W).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

DM’s Guide

Minor Hutaakan Priest
Combat Notes: 2 HD Hutaakan (Shaman); AC 6 (leather armor and shield); hp 9; MV 90’ (30’); #AT 1 mace; Dmg 1d6; Save C2; ML8; AL N

Hutaakan Warrior
Combat Notes: 1 HD Hutaakan; AC 6 (leather armor and shield); hp 6; MV 90’ (30’); #AT 1 sword; Dmg 1d8; Save F1; ML9; AL N

Typical Hutaakans
Combat Notes: Normal Hutaakan (1+1 HD); AC 8; hp 4; MV 90’ (30’); #AT 1 club or dagger; Dmg 1d4; Save NM; ML6; AL N


----------



## BOZ (Jun 19, 2006)

whew, that was a long time at the scanner...

ok, here is all the discussion that i was able to save.  i don't think i missed anything, but even if i did, we have more than enough here to reconstruct something decent.

if you have access to a printer, i suggest printing out the post and the previous one so that you can take your time on reading it.  

i didn't edit any posts for content, though i did remove some bits and pieces that didn't contribute to furthering the discussion.  i even left the dates and times on the posts.   there may be a few instances where the scanner mangled some words, but i think i caught most of them.  one thing i skipped was someone quoting someone else, if the same exact text appears directly above that post, because what i am posting now is long enough!! 




			
				Shade on 01-09-06 10:28 AM said:
			
		

> For the Hutaakan, -2 Str and +2 Wis? +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently?






			
				Mortis on 01-09-06 10:39 AM said:
			
		

> They're all good for me.
> 
> I've just noticed that the HW Players Guide contradicts ITSELF on the question of languages.
> 
> ...






			
				Shade 01-09-06 10:41 AM said:
			
		

> For simplicity's sake, I'd go with Hutaakan, Gnoll, and Orc. Since the others are Mystara-specific, we might include them in a ''In Mystara'' footer, like we occasionally do for Forgotten Realms stares.






			
				Mortis 01-09-06 10:45 AM said:
			
		

> Could do, Neathar was (sort of) the HW equivalent to 'Common' though. But seeing as they tend to live in isolated locales I suppose they could do without Common.






			
				Shade 01-09-06 10:46 AM said:
			
		

> Common could be a bonus language, though.






			
				Mortis 01-09-06 10:55 AM said:
			
		

> Does the fact that they don't seem to get on with other races deserve a penalty to Cha or Cha based skills perhaps?
> 
> It could also put players off selecting them as THE race to pick for cleric's if their Turn Undead is penalized.






			
				Shade 01-09-06 11:05 AM said:
			
		

> I could see such a penalty for them.






			
				Mortis 01-09-06 11:15 AM said:
			
		

> So
> 
> -2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
> 
> ...






			
				Shade 01-09-06 11:27 AM said:
			
		

> I'd go with humanoid, like gnolls.






			
				Mortis 01-09-06 11:39 AM said:
			
		

> Yeah that makes sense - they don't have any innate supernatural or spell-like abilities.
> 
> So Humanoid (Hutaakan)? I suppose it could be Humanoid (Gnoll) but in one of the write-up's (possibly the one in HW DM's book which 1 didn't post) states the gnolls were created in imitation of the Hutaakan. Again that could be included as a Mystaran footnote.






			
				Shade 01-09-06 11:42 AM said:
			
		

> I think Humanoid (Hutaakan) is best.






			
				Knightfall1972 01-10-06 4:14 AM said:
			
		

> Definitely humanoids.






			
				Mortis 01-10-06 7:53 said:
			
		

> Are we going to all three types of Hutaakan?
> 
> If so :
> 
> ...






			
				BOZ 01-10-06 09:58 AM said:
			
		

> we will start with the base creature, or brother's, and when that is finished we will add levels or whatever to get stat blocks for the warriors and priests.






			
				Mortis 01-10-06 10:04 AM said:
			
		

> Easiest way to do them.






			
				BOZ 01-10-06 01:08 PM said:
			
		

> i haven't even looked at most of the information for them yet, but here are some preliminary stats for the hutaakan to get it started in here:
> 
> Hutaakan
> Medium Humanoid (Hutaakan)
> ...






			
				Mortis 01-11-06 11:52 AM said:
			
		

> BOZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...






			
				BOZ 01-11-06 6:55 PM said:
			
		

> Mortis said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...






			
				Shade 01-11-06 09:50 PM said:
			
		

> Mortis said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...






			
				Knightfall1972 01-12-06 12:41 AM said:
			
		

> Shade said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...






			
				Mortis 01-12-06 05:01 AM said:
			
		

> > well actually, in oded the normal hutaakans had AC 8 (but i think they were wearing armor - not sure'?) No it's due to their hide.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






			
				Shade 01-13-06 12:08 PM said:
			
		

> Mortis said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...






			
				Knightfall1792 01-13-06 06:08 PM said:
			
		

> I agree. 1st level Experts sound right.






			
				BOZ 01-14-06 PM said:
			
		

> explain that logic please?






			
				Filby 01-15-06 12:30 PM said:
			
		

> I think 1st-level warrior is the best thing to go with, because all other 1-HD humanoids are presented as such. It's not supposed to represent the average member of the race, but rather the member of the race which PCs are most likely to face in combat (otherwise gnomes would be experts, for instance).






			
				Mortis 01-16-06 04:04 AM said:
			
		

> I think Filby has it right, stat-out 1st-level warriors - all the artisans/craftsmen could be counted as non-combatants.






			
				Shade 01-17-06 10:46 AM said:
			
		

> Statting as let-level warrior is fine by me. There are exceptions, such as the blue in the XPH which is a let-level psion, but not of other NPC classes as far as I can tell.






			
				Knightfall1972 01-18-06 3:02 AM said:
			
		

> I guess I'll go along with the group.  Warrior is the default class for 1st level monster entries, so it's logical to go that way to stay closer to the ''official''.






			
				BOZ 01-18-06 07:30 PM said:
			
		

> excellent, i now have you all under my control.






			
				Knightfall1972 01-19-06 04:21 AM said:
			
		

> LOL.






			
				Shade 01-19-06 10:13 AM said:
			
		

> So, now that that's been decided....
> 
> Hutaakan, let-Level Warrior
> Medium Humanoid (Hutaakan)
> ...






			
				Mortis 01-19-06 10:49 AM said:
			
		

> If we give Int a boost as Knightfall suggests, 1 say that we should penalize both Str and Con.
> 
> So
> 
> ...






			
				Shade 01-19-06 11:00 AM said:
			
		

> If we give 'em penalties to both Str and Con, I think we should ditch the Cha penalty. Besides, clerics rely on Cha as a secondary stat.






			
				Mortis 01-19-06 11:33 AM said:
			
		

> Shade said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...






			
				Knightfall1972 01-22-06 01:13 AM said:
			
		

> Mortis said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...






			
				Mortis 01-23-06 10:04 AM said:
			
		

> Knightfall1972 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...






			
				Shade 01-23-06 10:04 AM said:
			
		

> MMC said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...






			
				Mortis 01-23-06 10:18 AM said:
			
		

> This conversion seems to more difficult than I thought it would be.
> 
> We have the following options for ability modifiers?
> 
> ...






			
				Knightfall1972 01-23-06 10:25 PM said:
			
		

> Mortis said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Mortis (Jun 19, 2006)

Ya!! The hutaakan's back.

From reading the resurrected posts it looks like we were still trying to come to a consensus regarding the ability modifiers. Here are the choices again.

a) Str -2, Wis +2 
b) Str -2, Wis +2, Cha -2 
c) Str or Con -2, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha -2 
d) Str -2, Con -2, lnt +2, Wis +2, Cha -2 
e) Str -2, Dex +2, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha -4

As I mentioned in the quote, I still favour option b.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 19, 2006)

I actually favor them in the order listed (definitely not e)!


----------



## Kwitchit (Jun 19, 2006)

I'm going for C. These guys may not be great fighters (low Str) but neither do they seem flimsy (low con). Cha penalty should not be higher than for gnolls, Int bonus seems good, as does wis.

And give them Cleric as a favoured class.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 19, 2006)

favored class cleric sounds fine based on what i've seen so far.

i'm leaning towards option A for the KISS principle if nothing else.    it's balanced, too.


----------



## Shade (Jun 19, 2006)

Cleric sounds good to me as well.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 20, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> favored class cleric sounds fine based on what i've seen so far.



I think that's a given. 



> i'm leaning towards option A for the KISS principle if nothing else.    it's balanced, too.



A is my second choice. Then again as the only abilities modified in the HW set are Str and Wis I suppose its the most accurate.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 20, 2006)

Magical Aptitude sounds like a great feat for the clerics, but what about the regular warriors?  Unless they have some spellcasting ability that I didn't notice?

I'm actually fine with going the -2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Cha route now that I think about it.  Clerics will overcome the Cha deficit by raising their Cha as needed, and their Wis should compensate for any loss there.

(ack, and Shade, i wish i could look at Fiendish Codex I: The Lost Annals, but i'm at work!   )


----------



## Mortis (Jun 20, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Magical Aptitude sounds like a great feat for the clerics, but what about the regular warriors?  Unless they have some spellcasting ability that I didn't notice?



No the regular hutakaan don't get any spellcasting ability, so another feat? I would make it a defensive feat (dodge, mobilty etc) rather than a more offensive feat given their general outlook.



> I'm actually fine with going the -2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Cha route now that I think about it.  Clerics will overcome the Cha deficit by raising their Cha as needed, and their Wis should compensate for any loss there.



Well its still my favourite. 



> (ack, and Shade, i wish i could look at Fiendish Codex I: The Lost Annals, but i'm at work!   )



One new obyrith type demon the Laghathti (CR 10)
one detailed layer - The Woeful Escarand (layer 400)
and several (8)other layers are outlined.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 20, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Magical Aptitude sounds like a great feat for the clerics, but what about the regular warriors?  Unless they have some spellcasting ability that I didn't notice?




Yeah, I think we argued this at one point.  However, a bonus to Spellcraft and Use Magic Device doesn't exactly hurt warriors, either.  It's nice to know what spell just hit fried your innards, right?   



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> (ack, and Shade, i wish i could look at Fiendish Codex I: The Lost Annals, but i'm at work!   )




Check your e-mail.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 20, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Check your e-mail.




sweet!  that's good stuff.  

i don't mind sticking with Magical Aptitude, though another feat might be more useful for the general warriors.  i'm fine with whatever you guys want to do with that.

so, are we going with -2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 cha?


----------



## Shade (Jun 20, 2006)

If we go with the -2 Cha, I think we need to offset it with a +2 bonus to Int or Con.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 20, 2006)

i'd say Int is more likely than Con.


----------



## Shade (Jun 20, 2006)

Sounds good.  It does say that they fancy themselves "intellectuals".


----------



## Mortis (Jun 21, 2006)

If we go for a bonus to another ability, personally I'm still against it - but if it meant they get the Cha penalty, I would opt for Int. They seem a more cerebral than physical race.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 21, 2006)

The problem with giving them the Cha penalty on top of the Str penalty is that they are essentially getting a penalty to three ability scores (since Str counts twice), with only a benefit to one to offset it.  They don't have enough other decent abilities to put them on par with an LA +0 race.  The small natural armor bonus, along with the Wis bonus, is probably enough to offset the Str penalty, but not a Cha penalty as well.

Why is the Cha penalty important, again?  I honestly forgot since it had been so long since we worked on these fellows.  If it is because they are haughty and arrogant, so are sun elves, with no Cha penalty.  We could always give them a penalty on Diplomacy checks instead to represent this if it is important.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 21, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Why is the Cha penalty important, again?  I honestly forgot since it had been so long since we worked on these fellows.  If it is because they are haughty and arrogant, so are sun elves, with no Cha penalty.  We could always give them a penalty on Diplomacy checks instead to represent this if it is important.



My reason, not sure if it was the group concensus, was to penalize Cha to stop them being an 'uber' race for playing clerics.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 21, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> My reason, not sure if it was the group concensus, was to penalize Cha to stop them being an 'uber' race for playing clerics.




Ahh.  But they wouldn't be any more uber for clerics than half-orcs are for fighters, right?  Now if they got a bonus to Cha, I might be worried.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 21, 2006)

OK.

Maybe we need a poll. 

If we want to keep the ability modifiers balanced, then we can either go with:

a) -2 Str, +2 Wis
or
b) -2 Str, +2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Cha.

Regards
Mortis


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## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 21, 2006)

a poll?  if it will help expediate things... there you go.  

good news everyone!  my usual lunch partner has gone on vacation until early next month!  so, i will be here every workday during my lunch break, approximately from 11:45am - 12:30 central time, if you want to catch me "live".


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## Shade (Jun 21, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> good news everyone!  my usual lunch partner has gone on vacation until early next month!  so, i will be here every workday during my lunch break, approximately from 11:45am - 12:30 central time, if you want to catch me "live".




...or is it Memorex?   I mean, you're not really BOZ, just as Aspect of him, so is it really live?


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 21, 2006)

this is a recording... this is a recording... this is a recording... this is a recording...


----------



## Shade (Jun 21, 2006)

Since you've got all this extra "free time" now, should we reboot the ondonti conversion while we await the results of the hutaakan poll?


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## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 21, 2006)

isn't there a fair amount left to do with this guy?    we can take whatever results come from the poll (i'll withhold my vote for 24 hours, and break a tie if necessary) for the ability scores, but let's move on to other aspects of the creature.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 21, 2006)

i'll try to read through the material through my day, or when i get home from work, and see what else needs to be done.


----------



## Shade (Jun 21, 2006)

Reading back through the recovered posts, this seems to be what we've agreed on so far:


Humanoid (Hutaakan)
+1 Natural Armor
+4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently
Automatic Languages:  Hutaakan, Gnoll, and Orc
Bonus Languages:  Common

Hutaakan, lst-Level Warrior 
Medium Humanoid (Hutaakan) 
Hit Dice: 1d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed : 30 ft (6 squares) 
Armor Class: X (+X Dex, +1 natural, +2 leather armor, +1 light steel shield), touch X, flat- footed X 
Base Attack/Grapple: + 1/+X 
Attack: Short sword +X melee (1d6-X/19-20) or sling +X ranged (1d4) 
Full Attack; Short sword +X melee (1d6-X/19-20) or sling +X ranged (1d4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: X
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int X, Wis X, Cha X 
Skills: X (+4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently, -1 armor check penalty) 
Feats: 1 (Magical Aptitude?) 
Environment; Temperate mountains
Organization: X
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually lawful neutral 
Advancement: By character class 
Level Adjustment: +X 

A hutaakan is 6 feet tall and weighs about X pounds.

Hutaakan speak Hutaakan, Gnoll, and Orc.

Originally.found in module B10 - Night's Dark Terror (1986, Jim Bambra, Graeme Morris, & Phil Gallagher), AC9 - Creature Catalogue (1986), DMR2 - Creature Catalog (1993), and Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix (1994).


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## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 22, 2006)

OK, that all looks about right.  looking through the original stats, it doesn't look like there's much else to do with these guys except flavor.    i'll try to start writing that today, when/if i get the chance.

it looks like a decisive victory in the poll for "Str -2, Wis +2".


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## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 22, 2006)

here's what i have so far (barely started, mind you):


_This tall, slender being has a humanoid body, topped with a head like that of a jackal.  Its hands and feet are narrow, with nails like claws.  It wears long, somber-colored robes and simply jewelry._

Hutaakans (also called "jackal-men" by humans) are often haughy and callous, though they see themselves as a sensitive, civilized and intellectual people.  Hutaakans also feel that they suffer much abuse from other races as a result of their cultured, pacifistic nature.

Hutaakan life centers around their ancient cultural religion dedicated to the worship of the Immortal, Pflarr, an amoral deity of crafts.  The many hutaakan clerics carry out the various rites associated with the religion.

Hutaakans as a race have never adapted well to the arts of war, and have few warriors.  Most hutaakans are craftsmen and artisans with little or no martial skills, who fight only in self-defense.

A hutaakan is 6 feet tall and weighs about X pounds.

Hutaakan speak Gnoll and Orc. Hutaakans speak their own haunting, complex musical language in fluting, honeyed tones.

A hutaakan's favored class is cleric.

COMBAT
Hutaakan warriors often carry spears as secondary weapons, and priests are often armed with maces instead of swords.  Clubs and daggers are also common weapons for hutaakans.

Hutaakans are not boldly aggressive, but fight without mercy when forced.  They prefer to ambush enemies and attack with ranged weapons when possible.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2006)

Lookin' good.   How about 200 pounds?


----------



## Mortis (Jun 23, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Lookin' good.



Indeed


> How about 200 pounds?



That's ok, although I was thinking something slightly less, seeing as they're described as slender. MAybe 180?



			
				HW Boxed Set said:
			
		

> Hutaakans are slower-moving than most other races; their basic movement race is 90’ (30’).



Do we want to reflect this? If so base speed should be reduced to 20 or 25 feet. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> That's ok, although I was thinking something slightly less, seeing as they're described as slender. MAybe 180?




That works for me.  We could also list a range of 150-200, for example.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Do we want to reflect this? If so base speed should be reduced to 20 or 25 feet.




Gnolls move 30 ft., so 20 ft. is probably reasonable.  I'm fine with 20 ft. or 30 ft.   20 ft. definitely makes them a much less desirable Medium race, though, as they don't have many other benefits to counter this penalty.


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## Mortis (Jun 23, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> That works for me.  We could also list a range of 150-200, for example.



A range would be good. Of course, if we did a full write-up 'Hutakaans as Characters' section then we could give base height, weight etc with a variable element.



> Gnolls move 30 ft., so 20 ft. is probably reasonable.  I'm fine with 20 ft. or 30 ft.   20 ft. definitely makes them a much less desirable Medium race, though, as they don't have many other benefits to counter this penalty.



The slow movement is a pain, but it was in the original.

Regards
Mortis


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## Filby (Jun 23, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Gnolls move 30 ft., so 20 ft. is probably reasonable. I'm fine with 20 ft. or 30 ft. 20 ft. definitely makes them a much less desirable Medium race, though, as they don't have many other benefits to counter this penalty.






			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> The slow movement is a pain, but it was in the original.
> 
> Regards
> Mortis




It doesn't make sense for a tall humanoid to move so slowly IMO. Unless they have short, stumpy legs like dwarves, they should be able to move at the same rate as humans and elves, regardless of what it says above.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 23, 2006)

we already have them moving at 20 feet, so no problem there.

for beings described as slender, i think 200 pounds is too much.  150-180 is closer.

i am moving right along with the flavor text, but probably won't be done until the evening.  don't expect to see it posted within the next few hours.  

about the only thing that still needs working on is skills & feats.  Magical Aptitude may be OK, but we may want something more appropriate for the ordinary warrior folks.  we may come up with a cleric stat block, but not until we're fully done with the base hutaakan.

Skills: 8  (+4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently, -1 armor check penalty) Craft, Knowledge (religion) maybe
Feats: 1


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## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 23, 2006)

Filby said:
			
		

> It doesn't make sense for a tall humanoid to move so slowly IMO. Unless they have short, stumpy legs like dwarves, they should be able to move at the same rate as humans and elves, regardless of what it says above.




whoops - almost missed you there.    i'll leave this one open for discussion.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> whoops - almost missed you there.    i'll leave this one open for discussion.




While I'm fine with 20 ft., I'd prefer 30 ft. for this reason and the fact that they don't have enough positive abilities to counteract the slower speed for a Medium creature.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Skills: 8 (+4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently, -1 armor check penalty) Craft, Knowledge (religion) maybe
> Feats: 1




How about:  Craft 2, Hide 2, Knowledge (religion) 2, Move Silently 2, and either Point Blank Shot or Stealthy?


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## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 23, 2006)

that sounds fine for skills.  i'll post the latest version of the hutaakan sometime tonight, or tomorrow.


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## BOZ (Jun 24, 2006)

how about tonight rather than tomorrow?    posted in homebrews!


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## Mortis (Jun 24, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> While I'm fine with 20 ft., I'd prefer 30 ft. for this reason and the fact that they don't have enough positive abilities to counteract the slower speed for a Medium creature.



Maybe its more cultural than physical. "They move with slow, sedate gait contemplating their connection to Pflarr. Rather than rushing around with unseemly haste as the other races do." 
I would prefer the 20 ft. but wouldn't mind too much if it was bumped to 30 ft.



> How about:  Craft 2, Hide 2, Knowledge (religion) 2, Move Silently 2, and either Point Blank Shot or Stealthy?



Like the skills. For the feat(s) I prefer Stealthy to Point Blank Shot, or given their dislike of combat maybe Dodge?

As an aside should we include a brief write-up of Pflarr as a deity?

Regards
Mortis


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## Kwitchit (Jun 24, 2006)

Maybe to represent the slow speed, give them a base land speed of 20ft. but have them run as a creature with a 30ft. speed (or give them Run as a bonus feat). That way, they go slowly normally, but if they have to get away fast they can.


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## Filby (Jun 24, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Maybe its more cultural than physical. "They move with slow, sedate gait contemplating their connection to Pflarr. Rather than rushing around with unseemly haste as the other races do."




That would be represented by roleplaying, not stats.



			
				Kwitchit said:
			
		

> Maybe to represent the slow speed, give them a base land speed of 20ft. but have them run as a creature with a 30ft. speed (or give them Run as a bonus feat). That way, they go slowly normally, but if they have to get away fast they can.




That sounds needlessly complicated IMO.

I think this is one of those times when common sense trumps the rules. A creature with legs as long as a human is going to have the same gait as a human.

Btw, BOZ: In the "Hutaakans in Mystara" section, pray, what might be the "Ducky of Karameikos"? Grand Duke Stephen's favorite bath toy, perchance?


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## BOZ (Jun 24, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Like the skills. For the feat(s) I prefer Stealthy to Point Blank Shot, or given their dislike of combat maybe Dodge?




sure, Stealthy probably works better, but i would be willing to consider Dodge.  of course, they don't meet the requirements for Dodge do they?



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> As an aside should we include a brief write-up of Pflarr as a deity?




sure, feel free to expand that section.  i don't want to go into great detail on it though, just enough to give us a feel of what the hutaakans' involvement with him would entail.



			
				Filby said:
			
		

> Btw, BOZ: In the "Hutaakans in Mystara" section, pray, what might be the "Ducky of Karameikos"? Grand Duke Stephen's favorite bath toy, perchance?




rubby Duchy, you're the one... who makes bathtime lots of fun!


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## Mortis (Jun 26, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> sure, Stealthy probably works better, but i would be willing to consider Dodge.  of course, they don't meet the requirements for Dodge do they?



Doh! I'll go with Stealthy then.



> sure, feel free to expand that section.  i don't want to go into great detail on it though, just enough to give us a feel of what the hutaakans' involvement with him would entail.



I'll see what I can come up with. For now, here's Marco's write-up of Pflarr.

Regards
Mortis


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## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 26, 2006)

sounds good - get to that when you can. 

so... CR 1/2?  LA +0?


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## Mortis (Jun 26, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> so... CR 1/2?  LA +0?



You've got a thumb's up for that.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 26, 2006)

CR 1/2, LA +0 looks right to me.

Did we reach some sort of consensus on speed?

Hutaakans As Characters

Hutaakan characters possess the following racial traits.

Strength -2, Wisdom +2. 
Size Medium. 
A hutaakan's base land speed is (20 or 30) feet. 
Darkvision out to 60 feet. 
+1 natural armor bonus.
+4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. 
Automatic Languages: Hutaakan, Gnoll, Orc. Bonus Languages: Common, ?. 
Favored Class: Cleric. 
Level adjustment +0.


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## BOZ (Jun 26, 2006)

updating in homebrews!  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Did we reach some sort of consensus on speed?




seems up in the air to me.


----------



## Shade (Jun 26, 2006)

Lookin' good.

Did you want to put the speed thing to a poll?   Another impact to the slow speed is a -6 penalty on Jump checks.

Are we all in agreement on 150-180 lbs.?   It's OK to list a range in the flavor text (as opposed to the characters section), as this is what halfings in the MM do.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 26, 2006)

a poll sounds just fine.    one of those quick, no more than 24 hour dealies.

i'm only willing to go as high as 180 pounds because they are tall, otherwise i'd cap it lower since they are described as slender.


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## Knightfall (Jun 26, 2006)

I vote 30 feet for the creature's Speed. That's pretty standard for a Medium-sized humanoid, regardless of how tall said humanoid is. And I still think the -2 to Strength needs to be offset buy by a better set of bonuses...

Either

-2 Str, +2 Int, +2 Wis

OR

-2 Str, +4 Wisdom

Just my two cents.

KF72


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## Knightfall (Jun 26, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Lookin' good.
> 
> Did you want to put the speed thing to a poll?   Another impact to the slow speed is a -6 penalty on Jump checks.
> 
> Are we all in agreement on 150-180 lbs.?   It's OK to list a range in the flavor text (as opposed to the characters section), as this is what halfings in the MM do.




A poll sounds good to me. And I agree with the 150-180 lbs. mark for its weight.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 26, 2006)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> I still think the -2 to Strength needs to be offset buy by a better set of bonuses...
> 
> Either
> 
> ...




the people have spoken, and they liked the simpler answer better, so that's what i'm giving them.  

and, likewise, it certainly seems that they are favoring 30 feet...


----------



## Knightfall (Jun 27, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> the people have spoken, and they liked the simpler answer better, so that's what i'm giving them.
> 
> and, likewise, it certainly seems that they are favoring 30 feet...




I know, just voicing my opinion of dissention.  

I voted for the most complex option, after the fact, so I knew I wasn't going to be changing anyones' minds.

KF72


----------



## Mortis (Jun 27, 2006)

Damn! Looks like I've lost both polls. 



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> As an aside should we include a brief write-up of Pflarr as a deity?






			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> sure, feel free to expand that section. i don't want to go into great detail on it though, just enough to give us a feel of what the hutaakans' involvement with him would entail.




After reading the 'Hutakkans in Mystara' section, I don't think we really need add anything other than Pflarr's granted Domains, how about (borrowing from Marco's write-up):

Domains: Knowledge, Magic, Protection, (Sun ?)

Incidentally if you can read Italian you may want to take a look at Marco's Immortal Codex.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 27, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Damn! Looks like I've lost both polls.




Hang in there...I've lost more of them than I've won.    



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> After reading the 'Hutakkans in Mystara' section, I don't think we really need add anything other than Pflarr's granted Domains, how about (borrowing from Marco's write-up):
> 
> Domains: Knowledge, Magic, Protection, (Sun ?)




Looks good.  Sun is fine, too, but I think the three would suffice.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 27, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Hang in there...I've lost more of them than I've won.



I'm doing OK in the creature-by-poll poll's 



> Looks good.  Sun is fine, too, but I think the three would suffice.



Three's fine. I included Sun because it was the closest to the Mystara specific (or non SRD) Energy domain.

Regards
Mortis


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## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 27, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Damn! Looks like I've lost both polls.




the court of public opinion has declared that they don't agree with you.  

that doesn't make you a bad person or anything, though.  


so, what other items need resolution?


----------



## Mortis (Jun 27, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> so, what other items need resolution?



I think its done, just update the homebrew with the new speed and weight range. Add the Domains to the racial traits and I think we're done.

Oh and remove the X in special attacks. 

I don't think we need to do the priest and commoner variants. Anyone else have an opinion on that?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 27, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I don't think we need to do the priest and commoner variants. Anyone else have an opinion on that?




Agreed.  Now, if we follow the MMIV format, we'll need to do at least four different class progressions.


----------



## BOZ (Jun 27, 2006)

there are a few minor bits in there that need resolution, let's just say it's nothing that we couldn't resolve quickly today.    updated, BTW.


----------



## Shade (Jun 27, 2006)

> Skills: Craft (any?) +2, Hide +7, Knowledge (religion) +2, Move Silently +7
> Feats: Stealthy




Craft (any) works for me.



> Organization: Solitary, pair, "group" (5-8), band (11-20 plus 2-5 2nd-level clerics), or "tribe" (20-200 plus (50+)% noncombatants, plus 1 1st-level warrior per 10 adults, and X# Xth-level clerics(/rogue?) )




I'd change "group" to "patrol", "band" to "sect", and "tribe" to "congregation" to reflect their religious-focused society.

50% noncombatants seems fine.

1 4th-level cleric per 50 adults and 1 8th-level cleric leader?

Do we want to retain the titles of shaman and wokani (8th-level and 4th-level, respectively)?


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 27, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Do we want to retain the titles of shaman and wokani (8th-level and 4th-level, respectively)?




depends.  are those specific classes from OD&D/Hollow World, or are they merely just titles?


about the only other thing i notice missing is the Bonus Languages.


----------



## Shade (Jun 27, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> depends.  are those specific classes from OD&D/Hollow World, or are they merely just titles?




Specific classes.  But that doesn't mean we can't translate them into their closest core equivalents, eh?    



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> about the only other thing i notice missing is the Bonus Languages.




I'm a bit stuck on this one.


----------



## BOZ (Jun 28, 2006)

oh dread Mortis, what say you on this?


----------



## Mortis (Jun 29, 2006)

Sorry for the delay, had a day off. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> oh dread Mortis, what say you on this?



 Well besides the Mystara specific languages  (which we should add to the in Mystara section) - Nithian and Neathar plus possibly Lupin (the other Mystaran canine based humanoid)  how about Draconic and Elf (as they are interested in magic), Goblin (well they get gnoll and orc). Other humanoid languages?

As for the shaman and wokani they were the monster equivalents to cleric and magic-user (wizard) respectively. The classes weren't as powerful as the PC classes (probably closer tp the adept) but I suggest that we use the standard classes and use titles such as priest and magician. 

Given that their language is a haunting, complex musical language in fluting, honeyed tones how about using 'choir' instead of 'sect' or 'band'.

I'm fine with Craft (any), or possibly Craft or Profession (any)?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 29, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Well besides the Mystara specific languages  (which we should add to the in Mystara section) - Nithian and Neathar




i thought i already had those in there? 



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> plus possibly Lupin (the other Mystaran canine based humanoid)  how about Draconic and Elf (as they are interested in magic), Goblin (well they get gnoll and orc). Other humanoid languages?




sounds good to me.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 29, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i thought i already had those in there?



Yup!   

One thing relating to the reference 'Duchy of Karameikos'. It might be better to just refer to it as Karameikos, because during the Wrath of the Immortals war, Duke Stefan declares Karameikos independent of the Thyatian Empire and crowns himself King Stefan and, as such, Karameikos becomes a kingdom. IIRC it happens around AC1007-8.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Jun 29, 2006)

that works for me.  

shade, any comments on the last 3 or 4 posts?


----------



## Shade (Jun 29, 2006)

I defer to the wisdom of the dread Mortis.   (How do I pick up the dread template?)


----------



## BOZ (Jun 30, 2006)

"dread" just seems to fit with "mortis" well.  

OK, updated again.  take one last look, and if you see anything else that needs addressing let me know.  

do you want to come up with an extra stat block for clerics and/or experts?


----------



## Mortis (Jun 30, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, updated again.  take one last look, and if you see anything else that needs addressing let me know.



Looks done to me.



> do you want to come up with an extra stat block for clerics and/or experts?



I don't think we really need them. However, if we were to do a cleric I would suggest, that instead of the 2nd-level cleris given in the sources, we stat up one of the leader types.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 30, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> do you want to come up with an extra stat block for clerics and/or experts?




Nope.  I think we're done here.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 30, 2006)

groovus!


----------



## Mortis (Jun 30, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> oh dread Mortis...





			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I defer to the wisdom of the dread Mortis.   (How do I pick up the dread template?)





			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "dread" just seems to fit with "mortis" well.



Maybe I should change my location to the 'Isle of Dread' 

Regards
(Dread) Mortis


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## Knightfall (Jul 6, 2006)

So, what"s next on the list?


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## Mortis (Jul 6, 2006)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> So, what"s next on the list?



I believe the Kna is next for the Mystara thread, but I assume that we are only working on one conversion at a time at the moment. The current creature is the Ondonti in the 2e Monstrous Compendiums thread.

Regards
Mortis


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## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 6, 2006)

there's no official limit, but i'd like to keep it low; just one or two most of the time.  there are a few other things i want to work on before coming back to this thread.


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## Knightfall (Sep 18, 2006)

BOZ, just thought I'd let you know that I'm using your version of the Hutaakan and Darkwing in my Kulan homebrewed world. You guys do a great job here and have saved me a lot of time.

Of course, I had to tweak them a bit in oder to better fit my campaign world. I'd like to show you what I've done and credit you, Shade, and Mortis in my Monster Compilation II word document, as well. I'd like to credit you're real names. but if you prefer that I use your EN World usernames then that's okay too.

My modified versions are in my Kulan homebrewed thread.

Cheers!

KF72


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## Mortis (Sep 18, 2006)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> Of course, I had to tweak them a bit in oder to better fit my campaign world. I'd like to show you what I've done and credit you, Shade, and Mortis in my Monster Compilation II word document, as well. I'd like to credit you're real names. but if you prefer that I use your EN World usernames then that's okay too.



.

Real name is fine - emailed

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2006)

Knightfall1972, I shot you an e-mail.


----------



## Mortis (Sep 18, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Knightfall1972, I shot you an e-mail.



That's probably a better idea. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2006)

Yeah, the ol' "forum personal information harvesting" is a deadly plague best avoided.


----------



## BOZ (Sep 18, 2006)

indeed!  did you get my name already?  if not, i will e-mail you when i get home.


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## Knightfall (Sep 18, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> indeed!  did you get my name already?  if not, i will e-mail you when i get home.




Yep, from Dragon Magazine #347.


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## BOZ (Sep 19, 2006)

that should do it.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 6, 2006)

BOZ



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> actually, we're just going to just go ahead and put the gray philosopher on the regular CC site.




Are you intending to do the Grey Philosopher as the next Mystara conversion or ar eyou just going to put it on the list of requests? 

Either works for me.  

Regards
Mortis


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## Aspect of BOZ (Oct 6, 2006)

it'll be here, before long.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 6, 2006)

see, here it is.  

although the first source calls them "Grey", subsequent sources call them "Gray".  gray was used twice, but i think grey is the more common american spelling.  what do you all think of that?


AC9 - Creature Catalouge:
GREY PHILOSOPHER*
Philosopher Malice
Armour Class: 4 1
Hit Dice: 9 1*
Move: Nil 150' (50')
Attacks: Nil 1 touch
Damage: Nil 1-6, 1-8 o r 1-10 (see below)
Save As: C9 C6
Morale: 12 12
Treasure Type: O Nil
Intelligence: 13 Not applicable
Alignment: Chaotic Chaotic

A grey philosopher is the undead spirit of a chaotic cleric who died with some important philosophical deliberations unresolved in his or her mind. In its undead state, the philosopher does nothing hut ponder these weighty matters, always unable to reach a conclusion. Over the centuries, the evil notions of the philosopher take on a substance and will of their own. These animated thoughts, known as malices, appear as small, luminous, translucent whisps with vaguely human faces, gaping maws and spindly, clawed hands. They fly through the air,constantly searching for victims on which to vent their spite. Malices do not stray more than 100 feet from their philosopher, but are able to squeeze through the narrowest of gaps in their wanderings. A grey philosopher typically creates 2-8 malices for each century of its deliberations. Clerics turn malices as spectres.

Malices have the same Hit Rolls as a 9 Hit Dice creature, and the amount of damage done depends on the alignment of the victim: 1d6 for chaotic characters, 1d8 for neutrals and 1d10 for lawfuls.

The philosopher itself appears as a seated, grey, insubstantial, robed figure, deep in thought. It cannot be turned by a cleric, has no attack of its own, and will not defend itself. Until it is actually destroyed, its concentration will not he broken even if it is attacked. When its moment of destruction comes, however, it will look up with an expression of malicious enlightenment on its face and then vanish with a lingering, scream of evil delight. All malices vanish instantly when the philosopher is destroyed.

Both philosopher and malices are immune to mind-affecting magic


DMR2 - Creature Catalog:
Gray Philosopher*
Philosopher* Malice*
Armor Class: 4 1
Hit Dice: 9 (M) 1* (S)
Move: Nil 150’ (50')
Attacks: Nil 1 touch
Damage: Nil 1d6, 1d8 or 1d10 (see below)
No. Appearing: 1 (1) Special
Save As: Cleric: 9 Cleric: 6
Morale: 12 12
Treasure Type: O Nil
Intelligence: 13 Not applicable
Alignment: Chaotic Chaotic
XP Value: 450 13

Monster Type: Undead (Very Rare).

A gray philosopher is the undead spirit of a chaotic cleric who died with some important philosophical deliberations unresolved in his or her mind. In its undead state, the philosopher does nothing but ponder these weighty matters. However it seems always unable to reach a conclusion. Over the centuries, the evil notions of the philosopher take on substance and gain a will of their own. These animated thoughts, known as malices, appear as small, luminous, translucent wisps with vaguely human faces, gaping maws, and spindly, clawed hands. They fly through the air, constantly searching for victims on which to vent their petty, but eternal, spite. Malices do not stray more than 100 feet from their philosopher, but are able to squeeze through the narrowest of gaps in their wanderings. A gray philosopher typically creates 2d4 malices for each century of its deliberations. Clerics turn malices as spectres.

Malices have the same attack rolls as a 9 Hit Dice creature, and the amount of damage done depends on the alignment of the victim: 1d6 points of damage for chaotic characters, 1d8 for neutral characters and 1d10 for lawful characters.

The philosopher itself appears as a seated, gray, insubstantial, robed figure who is deep in thought. It cannot be turned by a cleric, has no attack of its own, and will not defend itself. Until it is actually destroyed, its concentration will not be broken even if it is attacked. When its moment of destruction comes, however, it will look up with an expression of malicious enlightenment on its face and then vanish with a lingering scream of evil delight. All malices vanish instantly when the philosopher is destroyed.

Both the philosopher and the malices are immune to mind-affecting magic (cham, phantasmal force, etc.) and to attacks from nonmagical weapons.

Terrain: Ruins



Mystara Monstrous Compendium:
Gray Philosopher

	Gray Philosopher	Malice	   
CLIMATE/TERRAIN:	Any ruins	Any ruins	   
FREQUENCY:	Very rare	Very rare	   
ORGANIZATION:	Solitary	Cluster	   
ACTIVITY CYCLE:	Night	Night	   
DIET:	None	None	   
INTELLIGENCE:	High (13-14)	Non- (0)	   
TREASURE:	Nil	Nil	   
ALIGNMENT:	Neutral evil	Neutral evil	   
NO. APPEARING:	1 	Special	   
ARMOR CLASS:	4	1	   
MOVEMENT:	Nil	15	   
HIT DICE:	9	1	   
THAC0:	Nil	11	   
NO. OF ATTACKS:	0	1	   
DAMAGE/ATTACK:	Nil	1d10, 1d8, or 1d6	   
SPECIAL ATTACKS:	Shriek of Fear	Attack as 9 HD creature	   
SPECIAL DEFENCES:	See below	See below	   
MAGIC RESISTANCE:	Nil	Nil	   
SIZE:	M (5'-6' tall)	T (1'-2' long)	   
MORALE:	Fearless (20)	Champion (15)	   
XP VALUE:	2,000	120	 

A gray philosopher is the undead spirit of an evil cleric who died with some important philosophical deliberation yet unresolved in his or her mind. In its undead state, this creature does nothing but ponder these weighty matters.

The gray philosopher appears as a seated, smoke-colored, insubstantial figure swathed in robes. It always seems deep in thought. Flying through the air surrounding the philosopher are a number of tiny, luminous, wispy creatures known as malices. They have vaguely human faces, gaping maws, and spindly, clawed hands. These vindictive creatures are actually the philosopher's evil thoughts, which have taken on substance and a will of their own.

Combat: The gray philosopher cannot be turned by a cleric but has no attack of its own; it will not defend itself. Both the philosopher and its malices are immune to mind-affecting magic (charm, phantasmal force, etc.) and to attacks from nonmagical weapons.

Unlike the philosopher, malices constantly search for victims on which to vent their petty but eternal spite. Malices do not stray more than 100 feet from their philosopher but may pass through the narrowest of openings in their ceaseless flight.

When they find a victim, the malices immediately launch themselves at it. The creatures attack as 9 Hit Dice monsters, and the amount of damage their vicious bite inflicts depends on the victim's alignment: 1d10 for good characters (whom the malices especially despise), 1d8 for neutral characters, and 1d6 points of damage for evil characters. Clerics can turn malices as spectres. A malice normally attacks until destroyed or turned. However, all these creatures vanish instantly if their philosopher is destroyed.

Until that moment, the philosopher never breaks its concentration, even if attacked, However, in its final seconds, the philosopher looks up with an expression of malicious enlightenment on its face, then vanishes with a lingering shriek of evil delight. All those  hearing this horrifying sound must make a successful saving throw vs. paralyzation or begin shaking with fear. Those characters so affected lose 1 point of Dexterity due to the tremors. This effect lasts until a remove fear or remove curse spell is cast on the character.

Habitat/Society: A gray philosopher never seems able to reach any sort of conclusion to the conundrum that has become the focus of its existence; instead, over the centuries, its evil thoughts have coalesced into the malices. A philosopher typically creates 2d4 malices for every century of in foul existence. It is unknown whether the philosopher is even aware of these venal children of its mind.

Gray philosophers are always found in isolated locations, especially the ruins of temples, libraries, monasteries, and other places of learning. The philosopher never takes an interest in its surroundings or anything else save its own evil contemplations. It does not even stir from its original place of thought for any reason; only its destruction can "move" a gray philosopher.

Ecology: Certain clerics and academicians speculate that any powerful evil cleric who, at death, becomes a gray philosopher may have been attempting to become one of the Immortals. Such sages theorize that a few of the creatures do manage to resolve the philosophical dilemmas upon which they ponder, which leads them to transcend their mortality finally to become profoundly evil and immortal beings. Although these theories propose that it takes a gray philosopher at least 1,000 years to reach such a terrible understanding, the sages urge those who discover these undead creatures to destroy them immediately, in case this frightening theory has merit.


----------



## Shade (Oct 6, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> although the first source calls them "Grey", subsequent sources call them "Gray".  gray was used twice, but i think grey is the more common american spelling.  what do you all think of that?




Heh.  I always though "gray" was the more common American spelling.  That's the way I always write out the color's name.


----------



## Shade (Oct 6, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> A gray philosopher typically creates 2d4 malices for each century of its deliberations.




Could we make this a factor of Hit Dice?   Say it starts with X amount and gains 1 per HD gained, perhaps?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Clerics turn malices as spectres.[/quote}
> 
> Which = +2 turn resistance.
> 
> ...


----------



## BOZ (Oct 6, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Heh.  I always though "gray" was the more common American spelling.  That's the way I always write out the color's name.




LOL  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray  i looked that up, and then goofed it up.    Grey is the British spelling, and British spellings were used in AC9 Creature Catalogue.  all the British spellings were "corrected" to American spellings in DMR2 Creature Catalog, which carried over into the Mystara Monstrous Compendium.  might as well go with Gray, that being said.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=176123  some things to think about there, see frankthedm's post for example.




			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Could we make this a factor of Hit Dice?   Say it starts with X amount and gains 1 per HD gained, perhaps?
> 
> that's a good solution, actually.
> 
> ...


----------



## Shade (Oct 6, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=176123  some things to think about there, see frankthedm's post for example.




That's an interesting, and fun, approach!



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> sounds good.  keep in mind that this creature is definitely a good example of a basic D&D creature that has changes due to alignement.  for example, it shifts from Chaotic to NE in the MMC.  also, damage against "lawful" creatures becomes "good", and "chaotic" becomes "evil".




Good point.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> what is the most common DR for corporeal undead?




It varies, although /magic or /silver seem to be the most common.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i like the idea of combining Dex damage (drain?) with a fear-based effect.  however, i think panicked is way too strong.  shaken should be more than enough.




Oops!  I think my mind transformed "save vs. paralyzation" into "paralyzed with fear".  It clearly indicates shaken.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 6, 2006)

now, here's an important question.  re-read the text carefully.  does it sound like the philospher and malices are incorporeal, or something else?


----------



## Shade (Oct 6, 2006)

"A grey philosopher is the undead spirit" = incorporeal

"take on a substance and will of their own" = corporeal. 

"but are able to squeeze through the narrowest of gaps in their wanderings" = corporeal

"The philosopher itself appears as a seated, grey, *insubstantial*, robed figure" = could go either way


----------



## Traianus (Oct 6, 2006)

In my conversion at the Vaults, I have both as incorporal- it seemed to work better with the intent of the creature.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 6, 2006)

i would almost think that they might be gaseous, but incorporeal might just make more sense.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 7, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i would almost think that they might be gaseous, but incorporeal might just make more sense.




I would plump for Incorporeal. For one thing it means they can only damaged by magic weapons  and we still have that 50% miss chance.

One reason that I dislike Gaseous is the fact that I cannot see the Grey Philosopher being blown around by gusts of wind etc - it should just sit there.

An idea I had (that goes against what was published) is that the spirit of the dead cleric is actually in the seat and the image of the Grey Philosopher is actually an illusion. It might make an interesting variant though.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 10, 2006)

I agree that incorporeal would work best.  It just goes better with the whole "spirits" thing.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 10, 2006)

*Hollow World: Were-Sabretooth added to homebrews*

I've added a conversion of the Were-Sabretooth from Hollow World to the homebrews. You see it here. I kept it as an attachment to preserve the formatting. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Aspect of BOZ (Oct 10, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> I agree that incorporeal would work best.  It just goes better with the whole "spirits" thing.




so shall it be!


----------



## Mortis (Oct 13, 2006)

To save BOZ a little work here are the stats from DMR2 Creature Catalog and the Mystara Monstrous Compendium.

Regards
Mortis

DMR2 Creature Catalog

Philosopher*
Armor Class: 4
Hit Dice: 9 (M)
Move: Nil
Attacks: Nil
Damage: Nil
No. Appearing: 1 (1)
Save As: Cleric: 0
Morale: 12
Treasure Type: O
Intelligence: 13
Alignment: Chaotic
Alignment: 450

Malice*
Armor Class: 1
Hit Dice: 1* (S)
Move: 150’ (50’)
Attacks: 1 touch
Damage: 1d6, 1d8 or 1d10 (see below)
No. Appearing: Special
Save As: Cleric: 6
Morale: 12
Treasure Type: Nil
Intelligence: Not applicable
Alignment: Chaotic
XP: 13

Monster Type: Undead (Very rare)
A gray philosopher is the undead spirit of a chaotic cleric who died with some important philosophical deliberations unresolved in his or her mind. In its undead state, the philosopher does nothing but ponder these weighty matters. However, it seems always unable to reach a conclusion. Over the centuries, the evil notions of the philosopher take on substance and gain a will of their own. These animated thoughts, known as malices, appear as small, luminous, translucent wisps with vaguely human faces, gaping maws, and spindly, clawed hands. They fly through the air, constantly searching for victims on which to vent their petty, bur eternal, spite. Malices do not stray more than 100 feet from their philosopher, but are able to squeeze through the narrowest of gaps in their wanderings. A gray philosopher typically creates 2d4 malices for each century of its deliberations. Clerics turn malices as spectres.
Malices have the same attack rolls as a 9 Hit Dice creature, and the amount of damage done depends on the alignment of the victim: 1d6 points of damage for chaotic characters, 1d8 for neutral characters and 1d10 for lawful characters.
The philosopher itself appears as a seated, gray, insubstantial, robed figure who is deep in thought. It cannot be turned by a cleric, has no attack of its own, and will not defend itself. Until it is actually destroyed, its concentration will not be broken even if it is attacked. When its moment of destruction comes, however, it will look up with an expression of malicious enlightenment on its face and then vanish with a lingering scream of evil delight. All malices vanish instantly when the philosopher is destroyed.
Both the philosopher and the malices are immune to mind-affecting magic (charm, phantasmal force, etc.) and to attacks from nonmagical weapons:
Terrain: Ruins.


Monstrous Compendium

Gray Philosopher
Climate/Terrain: Any ruins
Frequency: Very rare
Organization: Solitary
Activity/cycle: Night
Diet: None
Intelligence: High (13-14)
Treasure: Nil
Alignment: Neutral evil
No. Appearing: 1
Armor Class: 4
Movement: Nil
Hit Dice: 9
THAC0: Nil
No. Of Attacks: 0
Damage/Attack: Nil
Special Attacks: Shriek of Fear
Special Defences: See below
Magic Resistance: Nil
Size: M (5’-6’ tall)
Morale: Fearless (20)
XP Value: 2,000

Malice
Climate/Terrain: Any ruins
Frequency: Very rare
Organization: Cluster
Activity/cycle: Night
Diet: None
Intelligence: None (0)
Treasure: Nil
Alignment: Neutral evil
No. Appearing: Special
Armor Class: 1
Movement: 15
Hit Dice: 1
THAC0: 11
No. Of Attacks: 1d10, 1d8, or 1d6 (bite)
Special Attacks: Attack as 9 HD creature
Special Defences: See below
Magic Resistance: Nil
Size: T (1’-2’ long)
Morale: Champion (15)
XP Value: 120

A gray philosopher is the undead spirit of an evil cleric who died with some important philosophical deliberation yet unresolved in his or her mind. In its undead state, this creature does nothing but ponder these weighty matters.
The gray philosopher appears as a seated, smoke-colored, insubstantial figure swathed in robes. It always seems deep in thought. Flying through the air surrounding the philosopher are a number of tiny, luminous, wispy creatures known as malices. They have vaguely human faces, gaping maws, and spindly clawed hands. These vindictive creatures are actually the philosopher’s evil thoughts, which have taken on substance and a will of their own.

Combat: The gray philosopher cannot be turned by a cleric but has no attacks of its own; it will not defend itself. Both the philosopher and its malices are immune to mind-affecting magic (charm, phantasmal force, etc.) and to attacks from non-magical weapons.
Unlike the philosopher, malices constantly search for victims on which to vent their petty but eternal spite. Malices do not stray more than 100 feet from their philosopher but may pass through the narrowest of openings in their ceaseless flight.
When they find a victim, the malices immediately launch themselves at it. The creatures attack as 9 Hit Dice monsters, and the amount of damage their vicious bite inflicts depends on the victims alignment: 1d10 for good characters (whom the malices especially despise), 1d8 for neutral characters, and 1d6 points of damage for evil characters. Clerics can turn malices as spectres. A malice normally attacks until destroyed or turned. However, all these creatures vanish instantly if their philosopher is destroyed.
Until that moment, the philosopher never breaks its concentration, even if attacked. However, in its final seconds, the philosopher looks up with an expression of malicious enlightenment on its face, then vanishes with a lingering shriek of evil delight. All those hearing this horrifying sound must make a successful saving throw vs. Paralysation or begin shaking with fear. Those characters so affected lose 1 point of Dexterity due to the tremors. This effect lasts until a remove fear or remove curse is cast on the character.

Habitat/Society: A gray philosopher never seems able to reach any sort of conclusion to the conundrum that has become the focus of its existence; instead, over the centuries, its evil thoughts have coalesced into the malices. A philosopher typically creates 2s4 malices for every century of its foul existence. It is unknown whether the philosopher is even aware of these venal children of its mind.
Gray philosophers are always found in isolated locations, especially the ruins of temples, libraries, monasteries, and other places of learning. The philosopher never takes an interest in its surroundings or anything else save its own evil contemplations. It does not even stir from its original place of thought for any reason; only its destruction can “move” a gray philosopher.

Ecology: Certain clerics and academicians speculate that any powerful evil cleric who, at death, becomes a gray philosopher may have been attempting to become one of the Immortals. Such sages theorize that a few of the creatures do manage to resolve the philosphical dilemmas upon which they ponder, which leads them to transcend their mortality finally to become profoundly evil and immortal beings. Although these theories propose that it takes a gray philosopher at least 1,000 years to reach such a terrible understanding, the sages urge those who discover these undead creatures to destroy them immediately, in case this frightening theory has merit.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 20, 2006)

oh, Mortis... http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3107581&postcount=895


----------



## Mortis (Oct 20, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> oh, Mortis... http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3107581&postcount=895



 How'd I miss that?  

Ah! previous page (displaying 50 posts per page)  

Still, as a bonus, I split the malice away from the philosopher so the stats are easier to read. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Oct 20, 2006)

mucho appreciado.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 3, 2006)

OK, on this guy (despite all the text), we really hadn't gotten much farther than deciding it should be incorporeal...


----------



## Shade (Nov 3, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, on this guy (despite all the text), we really hadn't gotten much farther than deciding it should be incorporeal...




Actually, it looks like we covered DR and some frightfulness.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 3, 2006)

yes, we had discussed that a litte bit.  let's discuss it a little bit more.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i like the idea of combining Dex damage (drain?) with a fear-based effect.  however, i think panicked is way too strong.  shaken should be more than enough.




as for DR, we discussed giving it either magic or silver.  since magic is needed to hit an incorporeal anyway, DR/magic seems redundant.  how about DR/silver, in case an opponent has a silver magic weapon?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 4, 2006)

*The Gray Philosopher*



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> as for DR, we discussed giving it either magic or silver.  since magic is needed to hit an incorporeal anyway, DR/magic seems redundant.  how about DR/silver, in case an opponent has a silver magic weapon?



Works for me, even if it ends up with a low CR, I don't see DR/silver and  magic (effectively) as being too powerful seeing as the philosopher just sits there.

Lets get the stat block started.

Gray Philosopher 
Medium Undead (Incorporeal) 
Hit Dice: 9d12 (58 hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed : 0 ft. (0 squares) 
Armor Class: X (+X Dex), touch X, flat- footed X 
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/- 
Attack: - 
Full Attack: -
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str -, Dex X, Con -, Int X, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X 
Feats: 4
Environment: X
Organization: X
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: X 
Advancement: X 
Level Adjustment: -

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Mortis (Nov 4, 2006)

*The Gray Philosopher cont.*

Right let's try to sort some of the rest out.
*Special Attacks: * In 2ed a slain Gray Philosopher lets out a Dying Cry/Scream so that should be retained.

*Special Qualities: * Create Malice, 

*Saves: * Well the base saves are:

Fort: +3, Ref +3, Will +6

Adding the modifiers from the abilities I suggest we get

Fort: +3, Ref +3, Will +11

*Abilities: * As undead and incorporeal the philosopher gets no Con or Str score.

I would argue that as they don't/cannot move or physically act then they shouldn't have a Dex score either.

Int as given in the previous editions would be in the range 13-14.

So that just leaves Wis and Cha. I would suggest Wis 20 and Cha 16.

*Skills: * Depending on an Int score of 13 or 14 it should have 60 or 72 skill points, but as it just sits there contemplating, I would suggest that it wouldn't have any skills. If it did, I would suggest Concentration (even if it has no rules benefit), and Knowledge skills.

*Feats: * With 9 HD it is due 4 feats, but what to give it? Possibly Toughness x4? Great Fortitude is worth a look as well.

*Environment: * Any ruins - what would that equate to in 3.5?

*Organization: * X (1 Gray Philosopher + Xd4 Malices)

*Alignment: * 2nd ed gave it neutral evil, but I would argue that with its dedication to its task that lawful evil fits better.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Mortis (Nov 4, 2006)

*The Malice*

Basic Stats for the malice.

Malice
Tiny Undead (Incorporeal) 
Hit Dice: 1d12 (6 hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed : 0 ft. (0 squares) 
Armor Class: X (+X Dex), touch X, flat-footed X 
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/- 
Attack: X 
Full Attack: X
Space/Reach: 2 1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft.
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str -, Dex X, Con -, Int X, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X 
Feats: 1
Environment: X
Organization: X
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: X 
Advancement: X 
Level Adjustment: -

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Mortis (Nov 4, 2006)

*The Malice cont.*

Again some suggestions regarding the stats

*Attack and Full Attack: * Although the previous versions state that the Malice attacks as a 9HD creature I think that that is based on the HD of the Gray Philosopher that created it. So I would suggest a Special Quality that states that the Malice uses the BAB of the Gray Philosopher which generated it.

*Saves: * The base saves are

Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +2

Adding the modifiers from the abilities I suggest below we get

Fort +0, Ref +5, Will +2

*Abilities: * Again as an incorporeal undead the malice gets no Str or Con score.

Dex I suggest should be rather high, I suggest 20.

Int as given by previous editions would be 0

Wis as for other mindless undead should be 10

Cha I would go for something like 13-14

*Skills: * As a mindless undead the malice wouldn't get any skills. Maybe we could give them a proportion of the points that the Gray Philosopher should have?

*Feats: * A malice gets 1 feat - I would suggest Weapon Finesse.

*Environment and Organization: * Same as the Gray Philosopher.

*Alignment: * Again 2ed gives it as neutral evil which I could accept. but I would prefer to give it chaotic evil as a nice counterpoint to (at least as I suggested) the Gray Philosopher's lawful nature.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Nov 4, 2006)

[

*Environment: * Any ruins - what would that equate to in 3.5?

[From the D&D Rules Cyclopedia:

Ruins: These are ruined or abandonded buildings, artificial underground complexes (dungeons), tombs, crypts, graveyards, and similar desolate places.

So my guess would be Underground, although Any might work.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 5, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Lets get the stat block started.
> 
> Abilities: Str -, Dex X, Con -, Int X, Wis X, Cha X
> Skills: X
> ...




well, let's see... we decided that it might as well have 14 for Int, so it gets some decent benefits and a total of 72 skill ranks (like its skills matter though, really).

Organization would be Solitary, i think.  basing the alignment on the Mystara MC, we figured it would be Always NE (though honestly, i could see "Usually" instead of Always).  we figured advancement might as well be 10-18 HD (Medium).

also, we'd agreed on +2 turn resistance, and of course it would have incorporeal traits, undead traits


----------



## BOZ (Nov 5, 2006)

another thought... anyone with a ghost touch weapon would quickly make mincemeat of a G.P.  however, giving it the DR/silver would give it some protection from attacks like that.  



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> I would argue that as they don't/cannot move or physically act then they shouldn't have a Dex score either.
> 
> So that just leaves Wis and Cha. I would suggest Wis 20 and Cha 16.




Wis and Cha sound good to me.  we can debate on the Dex score, but Shade tells me he will out for a few days so i don't want to get too deep until he comes back.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> *Skills: * Depending on an Int score of 13 or 14 it should have 60 or 72 skill points, but as it just sits there contemplating, I would suggest that it wouldn't have any skills. If it did, I would suggest Concentration (even if it has no rules benefit), and Knowledge skills.




you're probably right.  it should get skills if for no other reason than to be rules-compliant.  



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> *Feats: * With 9 HD it is due 4 feats, but what to give it? Possibly Toughness x4? Great Fortitude is worth a look as well.




that's going to be even tougher than assigning skills.    perhaps we can consider what feats other incorporeals have?



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> *Environment: * Any ruins - what would that equate to in 3.5?






			
				GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> From the D&D Rules Cyclopedia:
> 
> Ruins: These are ruined or abandonded buildings, artificial underground complexes (dungeons), tombs, crypts, graveyards, and similar desolate places.
> 
> So my guess would be Underground, although Any might work.




we can go with the old standard "Any land and underground" and list those other ideas in the flavor text.  


as for the Malice, in a lot of ways, it is a separate secondary creature, so i'd rather deal with it as such.  let's set out the basics for the philosopher (most of it at least), then work on the malce.  it shouldn't take long to figure out the GP, since it doesn't have a lot going on for itself.


----------



## Knightfall (Nov 5, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Originally Posted by Mortis
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Besides Toughness, I'd recommend...

Ability Focus (dying cry/scream) and/or Ability Focus (create malice).

Diehard and Endurance (a bit of a streatch).

Other than that there isn't a whole lot of options for an incorporeal creature that doesn't physically move. It is an undead cleric, so perhaps it could have some spellcasting abilities that don't require it to move. These would be spell-like abilities, or perhaps its spellcasting becomes supernatural in an undead state.

Another option, is to create a more useful Gray Philospher Template with options for philosphers that move or don't move. The template can only be added onto a cleric.

Just some thoughts,

KF72


----------



## Mortis (Nov 6, 2006)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> Other than that there isn't a whole lot of options for an incorporeal creature that doesn't physically move. It is an undead cleric, so perhaps it could have some spellcasting abilities that don't require it to move. These would be spell-like abilities, or perhaps its spellcasting becomes supernatural in an undead state.



Well that's the problem, isn't it. Not only does it not move it doesn't do ANYTHING except think - no spells or spell-like abilities



> Another option, is to create a more useful Gray Philospher Template with options for philosphers that move or don't move. The template can only be added onto a cleric.



We could have some variants opf the gray philosopher after we've done the original. One idea I've previously mentioned was have the actual gray philosopher body as an illusion with its essence actually contained in the chair.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Mortis (Nov 6, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> that's going to be even tougher than assigning skills.    perhaps we can consider what feats other incorporeals have?



Allip: Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes
Shadow: Alertness, Dodge
Greater Shadow: Alertness, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
Spectre: Alertness, Blind-fight, Improved Initiative
Wraith: Alertness, Blind-fight, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative
Dread Wraith: Alertness, Blind-fight, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (Incorporeal Touch), Mobility, Spring Attack

Not much help really, they're very much combat focused feats.



> we can go with the old standard "Any land and underground" and list those other ideas in the flavor text.



It might be better to go with Any (underwater ruins etc) and list the ideas in the flavour text.



> as for the Malice, in a lot of ways, it is a separate secondary creature, so i'd rather deal with it as such.  let's set out the basics for the philosopher (most of it at least), then work on the malce.  it shouldn't take long to figure out the GP, since it doesn't have a lot going on for itself.



Agreed. What about my idea of giving the gray philosopher a Special Quality that enables it to grant its feats and skill points to the malices as well as its BAB?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 6, 2006)

Checking in quickly in the short time I've got today...

For feats, I'd recommend all the saving throw booster feats (Iron Will, etc.) as this poor fella needs survivability first and foremost.

For skills, any of the Knowledge skills, since it is a philosopher, after all.    

Definitely DR/magic and silver.

Did we look at the presence/wisps conversion we did awhile back for inspiration?


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> *Abilities: * As undead and incorporeal the philosopher gets no Con or Str score.
> 
> I would argue that as they don't/cannot move or physically act then they shouldn't have a Dex score either.
> 
> ...




I'm in agreement with all the suggested mental stats.

I disagree on the Dex, however.  Even though they are immobile, I get the impression that is because they choose to be immobile.  That shouldn't prohibit their reactions.   Essentially, the only things they are going to be using Dex for are Initiative and Reflex saves.   Since they are already awfully vulnerable, I'd hate to make their Reflex so poor that they are even more so.

Here's what the Monster Types & Overview states:



> Dexterity: Any creature that can move has at least 1 point of Dexterity. A creature with no Dexterity score can’t move. If it can perform actions (such as casting spells), it applies its Intelligence modifier to initiative checks instead of a Dexterity modifier. The creature automatically fails Reflex saves and Dexterity checks.




So the Init isn't really an issue, after all.  But the auto fail of Reflex saves is a biggee.

I'd suggest either giving them Dex 12-14, or giving them sufficient spell resistance to handle all those auto-fails.

Thoughts?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 9, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'm in agreement with all the suggested mental stats.
> 
> I disagree on the Dex, however.  Even though they are immobile, I get the impression that is because they choose to be immobile.  That shouldn't prohibit their reactions.   Essentially, the only things they are going to be using Dex for are Initiative and Reflex saves.   Since they are already awfully vulnerable, I'd hate to make their Reflex so poor that they are even more so.
> 
> ...



That's just it. They DON'T react so IMHO they should automatically fail their Reflex saves.

If they just sit there as someone hacks at them with a ghost touch weapon, they're not likely to leap out of the way of a fireball. 



> ... giving them sufficient spell resistance to handle all those auto-fails.



However, even though they didn't get MR in 2e, I'm not adverse to giving them SR.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2006)

OK, you've convinced me that SR is the better solution.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 10, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> OK, you've convinced me that SR is the better solution.



Naturally 

SR = CR + 10? Although due to its unreactive, non-threatening state I see its CR as being rather low.

I was going to suggest Improved Spell Resistance as a feat but its an Epic feat. 

I think we need to get what we've got in one place.

One thing I've been doing for the Mystara monsters converted on the WotC boards is add a MMIV style monster lore section (a part of MMIV that I liked). You can find the Grey Philosopher entry here.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Mortis (Nov 10, 2006)

So far we have *and suggestions*

Gray Philosopher 
Medium Undead (Incorporeal) 
Hit Dice: 9d12+27*+3* (85 *88*hp)
Initiative: +2 (+2 Int)
Speed : 0 ft. (0 squares) 
Armor Class: 16 (+3 deflection, +3 profane), touch X, flat-footed X 
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/- 
Attack: - 
Full Attack: -
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.

Special Attacks: *Shriek of Fear*
Special Qualities: *Create malices*, damage reduction magic and silver, darkvision 60 ft., death's grace, immunity to turning, incorporeal traits, *spell resistance 10+X*, undead traits, unholy toughness
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +11
Abilities: Str -, Dex 10, Con -, Int 14, Wis 20, Cha 16
Skills: 72 *(6 skills at +12 + bonuses gives Concentration +12, Knowledge (arcana) +14, Knowledge (history) +14, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +14, Knowledge (religion) +14, Knowledge (the planes) +14)*
Feats: 4 *Ability Focus (Dying Scream), Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Toughness*
Environment: Any land
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always (Usually) neutral evil 
Advancement: X 
Level Adjustment: -

Create Malices: Number of malices based on age/hd of philosopher.

Death's Grace (Ex): A gray philosopher gains a +1 profane bonus to AC for every 3 Hit Dice it possesses.

Unholy Toughness (Ex): A gray philosopher gains a bonus to its hit points equal to its Charisma modifier x its Hit Dice.

Shriek of Fear (Su): At the moment of a gray philosopher’s death, it unleashes a horrifying shriek. Living creatures within 60 feet must succeed on a DC X Will save or take X points of Dexterity damage (*drain*) and be shaken. The shaken effect can be removed from a creature with a remove fear or remove curse spell. The save DC is Charisma-based.

I think that's about it.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 10, 2006)

As an incorporeal creature, it gets a deflection bonus to AC = Cha modifier.

Some other undead traits I'd recommend to increase its survivability:

Death's Grace (Ex): A gray philosopher gains a +1 profane bonus to AC for every 3 Hit Dice it possesses.

Unholy Toughness (Ex): A gray philosopher gains a bonus to its hit points equal to its Charisma modifier x its Hit Dice.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 10, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> As an incorporeal creature, it gets a deflection bonus to AC = Cha modifier.
> 
> Some other undead traits I'd recommend to increase its survivability:
> 
> ...



I agree with all those. It actually reminds me that we haven't even looked at its AC yet. The BD&D and 2ed AC of 4 translates to about 16.

Let's see what the above gives us - 10 (base) + 2 (Int) + 3 (Deflection) + 3 (Death's Grace). Close enough to 16 I say. I'll add it to my previous post, together with bonus hp from Unholy Toughness.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 10, 2006)

Don't forget the -5 for Dex.   :\


----------



## Mortis (Nov 10, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Don't forget the -5 for Dex.   :\



If I remember correctly, that's only if you have a Dex of 0 not if it's missing altogether. 

<hurries to SRD to check>

Damn can't find it. 
Although in the table only an ability score of 1 gets a -5 penalty not 0-1. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 10, 2006)

Check out the shrieker:  no Dex, -5 AC.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 10, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Check out the shrieker:  no Dex, -5 AC.



Ah! BUt that has Dex 0 not Dex - 

Though saying that perhaps the philosopher should have a Dex of 0, it should certainly be no harder to hit than a shrieker (except for the fact its incorporeal).

I'll change the entry to Dex 0 and change the AC to relect that.

Regards
Mortis


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## Mortis (Nov 10, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Let's see what the above gives us - 10 (base) + 2 (Int) + 3 (Deflection) + 3 (Death's Grace). Close enough to 16 I say. I'll add it to my previous post, together with bonus hp from Unholy Toughness.



I'm not sure where I got the Int to AC from. I think I just mixed it up with the Int to Init.   

Removed. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 10, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Ah! BUt that has Dex 0 not Dex -
> 
> Though saying that perhaps the philosopher should have a Dex of 0, it should certainly be no harder to hit than a shrieker (except for the fact its incorporeal).
> 
> ...




I don't know about the SRD, but the printed MM 3.5 says "Dex -" for the shrieker.


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## Mortis (Nov 11, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> I don't know about the SRD, but the printed MM 3.5 says "Dex -" for the shrieker.



The d20srd.org has it as 0.

But I've put it to 0 now anyway.

Of course, this makes its AC pitifully low. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Nov 13, 2006)

i'll take another look at this one, soon enough.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 17, 2006)

OK, did a bit of thinking.

For Dex, we should give it 10.  that way, it has no penalty on Init, AC or Ref saves.  It’s because of their choice not to move that will fail Ref saves for it, not an inability to move.    if you really want to be picky about it, we can go this route and compromise:  it has a Dex of 10, but is always considered helpless against attacks that require a Ref save.

SQ that enables a GP to grants its malices skill ranks and feats: yes!  It's kind of like a familiar but in reverse, eh?  

Shade suggested looking at the presence/whisps conversion for ideas, which I have not yet done.

Shade: where did you get Death’s Grace and Unholy Toughness from?    I’ll take those. 

How’s this?:
Shriek of Fear (Su): At the moment of a gray philosopher’s death, it unleashes a horrifying shriek.  Living creatures within 60 feet must succeed on a DC X Will save or take X points of Dexterity damage and be shaken.  The shaken effect can be removed from a creature with a remove fear or remove curse spell.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 20, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> For Dex, we should give it 10.  that way, it has no penalty on Init, AC or Ref saves.  It’s because of their choice not to move that will fail Ref saves for it, not an inability to move.    if you really want to be picky about it, we can go this route and compromise:  it has a Dex of 10, but is always considered helpless against attacks that require a Ref save.



I guess I can live with Dex 10 with the stipulation that it is considered helpless for Reflex saves. 



> SQ that enables a GP to grants its malices skill ranks and feats: yes!  It's kind of like a familiar but in reverse, eh?



Sort of  Also Add that the Malice uses the Philosopher's BAB (it solves the problem of a 1HD creature attacking as a 9HD creature.



> Shade suggested looking at the presence/whisps conversion for ideas, which I have not yet done.



Neither had I until now. Although they're a similar concept, I don't see anything that we need to borrow.



> How’s this?:
> Shriek of Fear (Su): At the moment of a gray philosopher’s death, it unleashes a horrifying shriek.  Living creatures within 60 feet must succeed on a DC X Will save or take X points of Dexterity damage and be shaken.  The shaken effect can be removed from a creature with a remove fear or remove curse spell.  The save DC is Charisma-based.



Looks go  One thing I'd change is replacing Dex damage with Dex drain. Stat loss in BD&D was rather more permanent than 3.x. I also think that a permanent loss is more fitting 'reminder' of the philosopher' which hasn't really got much else going for it.

Edited Stats - Changed Dex and added Shriek of Fear.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 20, 2006)

I'm fine with all that's been posted since my last post.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Shade: where did you get Death’s Grace and Unholy Toughness from?  I’ll take those.




MMIII, and used with undead in several other places since.   They should be used more often, and retroactively applied to some of the MM undead, IMHO.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 20, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I guess I can live with Dex 10 with the stipulation that it is considered helpless for Reflex saves.




great!    we can add to that, or make a separate ability, that since they always remain motionless they cannot be moved, nor compelled or controlled to take any actions.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Sort of  Also Add that the Malice uses the Philosopher's BAB (it solves the problem of a 1HD creature attacking as a 9HD creature.




indeed.  do we have a precedent to follow, for the format of such?  also, i don't think there should be a combat ability tied to their creation.  first of all, they are created unconsciously.  secondly, they are only created over a course of years.  so never in an encounter (well, almost never, if by rare circumstance) will a malice be created during a combat.  we can describe their creation in the text freely, however.


also, we made a goof earlier.  they should not have turn resistance.  each of its sources clearly state that the philosopher cannot be turned at all (which makes a lot of sense).  what other creatures have this ability, so that we may copy?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 21, 2006)

while waiting for a response, i posted what i have so far in homebrews.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 21, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> great!    we can add to that, or make a separate ability, that since they always remain motionless they cannot be moved, nor compelled or controlled to take any actions.



I've steered clear of the conversion Jamie did on WotC Mystara lest it influence me too greatly  but he gave it a Passivity ability. After looking though it is quite similar, but I guess we're both working from the same source material. 



> indeed.  do we have a precedent to follow, for the format of such?



Doesn't a familiar use its masters BAB? Checks SRD - yep. 


> also, i don't think there should be a combat ability tied to their creation.  first of all, they are created unconsciously.  secondly, they are only created over a course of years.  so never in an encounter (well, almost never, if by rare circumstance) will a malice be created during a combat.  we can describe their creation in the text freely, however.




Perhaps it could also create a malice when it is struck and fails a Concentration check, as one of its evil thoughts escape?



> also, we made a goof earlier.  they should not have turn resistance.  each of its sources clearly state that the philosopher cannot be turned at all (which makes a lot of sense).  what other creatures have this ability, so that we may copy?



The Tomb Warden PrC from Libris Mortis has a class feature 'Turn Immunity', good enough?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 21, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> also, we made a goof earlier.  they should not have turn resistance.  each of its sources clearly state that the philosopher cannot be turned at all (which makes a lot of sense).  what other creatures have this ability, so that we may copy?




From MMII:

Turn Immunity (Ex): A death knight cannot be turned. It can be banished with holy word, however, just as if it were an evil outsider. (The banished death knight returns to the plane of the evil god it serves).


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 21, 2006)

We can probably use that just fine.  The holy word part is probably irrelevant though.  should it be a separate ability, or should we fold it into this:

Motionless (Ex): A gray philosopher cannot be moved by any means.  It cannot be compelled or forced to take any actions by any effect.  It is considered helpless against any effect that requires a Reflex save.
(A gray philosopher cannot be turned.)

How about:
“Attack as Master” (Ex): A malice uses its gray philosopher’s base attack bonus.  A malice uses its own Dexterity modifier on attack rolls with its natural weapons.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Perhaps it could also create a malice when it is struck and fails a Concentration check, as one of its evil thoughts escape?




Hmm, not sure if I like that one…


----------



## Shade (Nov 22, 2006)

I'd keep turn immunity as a separate ability.  I'm pretty confident I've seen it on other creatures (and without the holy word part), but couldn't find one earlier.

Motionless looks fine.

I'm not sure about "Attack as Master"...are the malices going to be a separate creature, or just listed as a part of the philosopher's combat entry?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 22, 2006)

This is the Turn Immunity ability from the Tome Warden PrC.

*Turn Immunity (Ex): * As long as it is within the tomb, graveyard, or similar resting place that it protects, a tomb warden is immune to turning or rebuking attempts. It can still be bolstered as normal.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'm not sure about "Attack as Master"...are the malices going to be a separate creature, or just listed as a part of the philosopher's combat entry?



I thought that we were going down the seperate creature route.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Hmm, not sure if I like that one…



That's OK - just an idea. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 22, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I thought that we were going down the seperate creature route.




in the same sense as the presence and whisps, yes.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 23, 2006)

BOZ (from homebrews) said:
			
		

> Feats: 4 (candidates: Ability Focus (shriek of fear), Alertness, *Diehard/Endurance*, Great Fortitude, Investigator, Iron Will, Skill Focus, Toughness)



Not sure that is needs Diehard or Endurance. As an undead its immune to all the nonlethal damage that Endurance prevents and aren't undead destroyed at 0 hp rather than -10 hp?

Of the remainder I would suggest Ability Focus (shriek of fear), Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Skill Focus (Concentration).



> Skills: 72 (candidates: Concentration, Gather Information, various Knowledges)



At 9HD it gets a max of 12 ranks in 6 skills. So Concentration 12, Gather Knowledge 12, Knowledge (history) 12, Knowledge (religion) 12, Knowledge (the planes) 12 and one more, possibly Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 12. Although if we give it the ability to share its skills with the malices, we may want to go with a few ranks in skills like spot. Then again, we could borrow the Lifesense ability of the Presence instead.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 26, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Not sure that is needs Diehard or Endurance. As an undead its immune to all the nonlethal damage that Endurance prevents and aren't undead destroyed at 0 hp rather than -10 hp?
> 
> Of the remainder I would suggest Ability Focus (shriek of fear), Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Skill Focus (Concentration).




I agree with all this except SF (Concentration).  Combat Casting would be better, but I don't think even that is necessary.  I'd probably go with Improved Init so it can get those malices going quickly.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> At 9HD it gets a max of 12 ranks in 6 skills. So Concentration 12, Gather Knowledge 12, Knowledge (history) 12, Knowledge (religion) 12, Knowledge (the planes) 12 and one more, possibly Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 12. Although if we give it the ability to share its skills with the malices, we may want to go with a few ranks in skills like spot. Then again, we could borrow the Lifesense ability of the Presence instead.




I'd also include Spellcraft, since it's a (former) cleric.

Regards
Mortis[/QUOTE]


----------



## Mortis (Nov 27, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> I agree with all this except SF (Concentration).  Combat Casting would be better, but I don't think even that is necessary.  I'd probably go with Improved Init so it can get those malices going quickly.



Improved Init would be okay, but only if we give the philosopher the ability to share it's feats with the malices.

Diligent fits the description of the grey philosopher but has no in-game benefit. 


> I'd also include Spellcraft, since it's a (former) cleric.



Sure, I've no problem with Spellcraft - it's just another skill it won't use 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 27, 2006)

I think the better question for this one would be, should this ability go under the GP or the malice?
“Attack as Master” (Ex): A malice uses its gray philosopher’s base attack bonus. A malice uses its own Dexterity modifier on attack rolls with its natural weapons. (and can share its skills and feats?)

Looks good?
Turn Immunity (Ex): A gray philosopher cannot be turned or rebuked.  It can still be bolstered as normal.

Feats: Ability Focus (shriek of fear), Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will (if no one objects, that is).  

Skills: how about these ranks: 
Concentration 12, Gather Information 10, Knowledge (history) 10, Knowledge (religion) 10, Knowledge (the planes) 10 and one more, possibly Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 10, Spellcraft 10.

IIRC, the Lifesense of the Presence was because we made it blind and deaf.


----------



## Shade (Nov 27, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> I think the better question for this one would be, should this ability go under the GP or the malice?
> “Attack as Master” (Ex): A malice uses its gray philosopher’s base attack bonus. A malice uses its own Dexterity modifier on attack rolls with its natural weapons. (and can share its skills and feats?)




Malice.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Looks good?
> Turn Immunity (Ex): A gray philosopher cannot be turned or rebuked.  It can still be bolstered as normal.




Looks good.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Feats: Ability Focus (shriek of fear), Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will (if no one objects, that is).




No objections here.    



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Skills: how about these ranks:
> Concentration 12, Gather Information 10, Knowledge (history) 10, Knowledge (religion) 10, Knowledge (the planes) 10 and one more, possibly Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 10, Spellcraft 10.




That'll work.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> IIRC, the Lifesense of the Presence was because we made it blind and deaf.




I think you are correct.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 27, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> I think the better question for this one would be, should this ability go under the GP or the malice?
> “Attack as Master” (Ex): A malice uses its gray philosopher’s base attack bonus. A malice uses its own Dexterity modifier on attack rolls with its natural weapons. (and can share its skills and feats?)



I agree with Shade, it makes sense to put it under the malice.



> Turn Immunity (Ex): A gray philosopher cannot be turned or rebuked.  It can still be bolstered as normal.



That works



> Feats: Ability Focus (shriek of fear), Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will (if no one objects, that is).



No objection here.



> Skills: how about these ranks:
> Concentration 12, Gather Information 10, Knowledge (history) 10, Knowledge (religion) 10, Knowledge (the planes) 10 and one more, possibly Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 10, Spellcraft 10.



Again, I'm fine with those. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 27, 2006)

cool.  

CR, DR, SR?


----------



## Shade (Nov 27, 2006)

I'd hold off on the CR until we see how dangerous the malices are.   Without 'em, its not really a threat.

SR should be at least 12+CR.  I'd recommend going as high as 15+CR, since Reflex save spells will decimate the philosopher quickly.

DR 10/magic and silver?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 27, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'd hold off on the CR until we see how dangerous the malices are.   Without 'em, its not really a threat.



But the malices will have their own CR. In a way the philosopher, on its own, probably shouldn't have a CR or a rather low one, say 1 or 2.



> SR should be at least 12+CR.  I'd recommend going as high as 15+CR, since Reflex save spells will decimate the philosopher quickly.



Either is fine by me, although I'd prefer 12+CR. 



> DR 10/magic and silver?



That should work

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 27, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> But the malices will have their own CR.




True, which is another reason I'm not convinced that the malices should be separate creatures.   :\ 



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Either is fine by me, although I'd tend to go for 12+CR.




If the CR includes the malices, I'll buy that.  With separate CRs, I'd peg the philosopher as CR 2.   It can't cause any harm until its death, after all.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 27, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> True, which is another reason I'm not convinced that the malices should be separate creatures.   :\



There are benefits (as well as problems) for having malices as separate creatures. For example as a separate creature a malice may be turned. If it was a special attack of the grey philosopher then obviously it couldn't be turned.



> If the CR includes the malices, I'll buy that.  With separate CRs, I'd peg the philosopher as CR 2.   It can't cause any harm until its death, after all.



Yeah you posted as I was editing my post, I suggested CR 1-2. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 27, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> There are benefits (as well as problems) for having malices as separate creatures. For example as a separate creature a malice may be turned. If it was a special attack of the grey philosopher then obviously it couldn't be turned.




Of course, we could state that they can be turned within the "create malice" ability.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Yeah you posted as I was editing my post, I suggested CR 1-2.




Heh.  Great minds think alike.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 27, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Of course, we could state that they can be turned within the "create malice" ability.



Another one would be that as separate creatures, malices can be attacked and destroyed. Yes we could include this as well as other issues in the 'create malice' but it could end up nearly as long as creature entry itself. 



> Heh.  Great minds think alike.



Yeah as you said, until it dies its no threat at all.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 27, 2006)

and even then, the effect it causes is not that big of a deal since the combat is over -unless the PCs are likely to get into another fight quickly, they will probably get a chance to recover before harm befalls them.  

OK, let's leave the CR and SR alone for now.

how about we move on to the stats for a malice?


----------



## Shade (Nov 27, 2006)

Sounds good.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 27, 2006)

first of all, the text for the GP:

_This robed figure is seated and appears deep in thought.  Its form is smoky-gray and insubstantial.  A palpable aura of hatred seems to emanate from the otherwise oblivious being._

The gray philosopher is an undead spirit of an evil cleric that died with some important unresolved philosophical deliberations in mind.  A gray philosopher does nothing but ponder these mysterious weighty matters, always seeming unable to reach a conclusion.

A gray philosopher would be otherwise harmless if not for its malices.  These wispy shapes are the animated evil thoughts of the gray philosopher that have taken on a substance and will of their own.  A gray philosopher begins its existence with X malices, and manifests 2d4 more for each century of its existence.  It does not control the malices per se, so much as they are extensions of itself and always act in the philosopher’s best interest.  A gray philosopher, however, does not even seem to be aware of its own malices.

A gray philosopher is most commonly found in ruined or abandoned buildings (particularly temples, libraries, and monasteries), dungeons, tombs, crypts, graveyards, and similar desolate places.  Sages theorize that if a gray philosopher were ever able to solve the dilemmas in its own mind, it would be able to transcend the mortal plane and become a powerful immortal being; undoubtedly, this process could easily take millennia.

COMBAT
A gray philosopher has no interest in its surroundings and will neither attack nor defend itself.  Even attacks that harm a gray philosopher will not break its concentration.  

At its moment of destruction, a gray philosopher looks up with an expression of malicious enlightenment, vanishing with a lingering shriek of evil delight.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 27, 2006)

and with that out of the way...

Mystara Monstrous Compendium stat block:
Malice
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any ruins
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Cluster
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: None
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: Special
ARMOR CLASS: 1
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 1
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d10, 1d8, or 1d6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Attack as 9 HD creature
SPECIAL DEFENCES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T (1'-2' long)
MORALE: Champion (15)
XP VALUE: 120


Selected text from
AC9:
These animated thoughts, known as malices, appear as small, luminous, translucent whisps with vaguely human faces, gaping maws and spindly, clawed hands. They fly through the air,constantly searching for victims on which to vent their spite. Malices do not stray more than 100 feet from their philosopher, but are able to squeeze through the narrowest of gaps in their wanderings. A grey philosopher typically creates 2-8 malices for each century of its deliberations. Clerics turn malices as spectres.

Malices have the same Hit Rolls as a 9 Hit Dice creature, and the amount of damage done depends on the alignment of the victim: 1d6 for chaotic characters, 1d8 for neutrals and 1d10 for lawfuls.

All malices vanish instantly when the philosopher is destroyed.


DMR2:
These animated thoughts, known as malices, appear as small, luminous, translucent wisps with vaguely human faces, gaping maws, and spindly, clawed hands. They fly through the air, constantly searching for victims on which to vent their petty, but eternal, spite. Malices do not stray more than 100 feet from their philosopher, but are able to squeeze through the narrowest of gaps in their wanderings. A gray philosopher typically creates 2d4 malices for each century of its deliberations. Clerics turn malices as spectres.

Malices have the same attack rolls as a 9 Hit Dice creature, and the amount of damage done depends on the alignment of the victim: 1d6 points of damage for chaotic characters, 1d8 for neutral characters and 1d10 for lawful characters.

All malices vanish instantly when the philosopher is destroyed.

Both the philosopher and the malices are immune to mind-affecting magic (cham, phantasmal force, etc.) and to attacks from nonmagical weapons.


And MMC:
Flying through the air surrounding the philosopher are a number of tiny, luminous, wispy creatures known as malices. They have vaguely human faces, gaping maws, and spindly, clawed hands. These vindictive creatures are actually the philosopher's evil thoughts, which have taken on substance and a will of their own.

Both the philosopher and its malices are immune to mind-affecting magic (charm, phantasmal force, etc.) and to attacks from nonmagical weapons.

Unlike the philosopher, malices constantly search for victims on which to vent their petty but eternal spite. Malices do not stray more than 100 feet from their philosopher but may pass through the narrowest of openings in their ceaseless flight.

When they find a victim, the malices immediately launch themselves at it. The creatures attack as 9 Hit Dice monsters, and the amount of damage their vicious bite inflicts depends on the victim's alignment: 1d10 for good characters (whom the malices especially despise), 1d8 for neutral characters, and 1d6 points of damage for evil characters. Clerics can turn malices as spectres. A malice normally attacks until destroyed or turned. However, all these creatures vanish instantly if their philosopher is destroyed.


Mortis got us started on the stat block:
Malice
Tiny Undead (Incorporeal) 
Hit Dice: 1d12 (6 hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed : 0 ft. (0 squares) 
Armor Class: X (+X Dex), touch X, flat-footed X 
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/- 
Attack: X 
Full Attack: X
Space/Reach: 2 1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft.
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str -, Dex X, Con -, Int X, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X 
Feats: 1
Environment: X
Organization: X
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: X 
Advancement: X 
Level Adjustment: -



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Again some suggestions regarding the stats
> 
> *Attack and Full Attack: * Although the previous versions state that the Malice attacks as a 9HD creature I think that that is based on the HD of the Gray Philosopher that created it. So I would suggest a Special Quality that states that the Malice uses the BAB of the Gray Philosopher which generated it.
> 
> ...


----------



## Mortis (Nov 28, 2006)

Going back to the gray philosopher briefly. 

Dex damage of the Dying Shriek - Damage or Drain? I prefer Drain.

And how about this?

*Unwavering Concentration (Ex): *Whilst a gray philosopher is contemplating its unresolved problem it pays no attention to what is going on around it. As such, it is immune to turning or rebuking attempts, automatically fails Reflex saves and automatically makes any Concentration checks.

Back to the malice

*Feats: *I realised after suggesting Weapon Finesse that the malice doesn't qualify for it, lacking the +1 BAB so if we give it the feat it will have to be as a bonus.

A side effect of giving it Weapon Finesse with it's (suggested) Dex 20 means an attack bonus of +5, quite similar to a 9HD undead! 

Other than that, how about Flyby Attack?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 28, 2006)

actually, since a malice is mindless, it would get no feats.    other than those transferred from its creator...


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2006)

AC9 said:
			
		

> These animated thoughts, known as malices, appear as small, luminous, translucent whisps with vaguely human faces, gaping maws and spindly, clawed hands. They fly through the air,constantly searching for victims on which to vent their spite. Malices do not stray more than 100 feet from their philosopher, but are able to squeeze through the narrowest of gaps in their wanderings. A grey philosopher typically creates 2-8 malices for each century of its deliberations. Clerics turn malices as spectres.






			
				DMR2 said:
			
		

> These animated thoughts, known as malices, appear as small, luminous, translucent wisps with vaguely human faces, gaping maws, and spindly, clawed hands. They fly through the air, constantly searching for victims on which to vent their petty, but eternal, spite. Malices do not stray more than 100 feet from their philosopher, but are able to squeeze through the narrowest of gaps in their wanderings. A gray philosopher typically creates 2d4 malices for each century of its deliberations. Clerics turn malices as spectres.






			
				MMC said:
			
		

> Unlike the philosopher, malices constantly search for victims on which to vent their petty but eternal spite. Malices do not stray more than 100 feet from their philosopher but may pass through the narrowest of openings in their ceaseless flight.






			
				AC9 said:
			
		

> All malices vanish instantly when the philosopher is destroyed.






			
				DMR2 said:
			
		

> All malices vanish instantly when the philosopher is destroyed.




We should modify this for the "squeeze through gaps" ability...

Amorphous (Ex) Bludgeoning weapons and impact damage deal no damage to Juiblex. He is able to slip through spaces that otherwise could accommodate a creature no larger than Tiny because of his jellylike substance.

Bound to Philosopher (Su):  A malice can never stray more than 100 feet from the gray philosopher that created it.  Should it be forcefully moved from this area, it (is immediately destroyed? must immediately return to within 100 feet by the fastest means possible?  something else?).   If the gray philosopher that created a malice is destroyed, the malice is instantly destroyed.

Spectres have +2 turn resistance in 3.5.



			
				AC9 said:
			
		

> Malices have the same Hit Rolls as a 9 Hit Dice creature, and the amount of damage done depends on the alignment of the victim: 1d6 for chaotic characters, 1d8 for neutrals and 1d10 for lawfuls.






			
				DMR2 said:
			
		

> Malices have the same attack rolls as a 9 Hit Dice creature, and the amount of damage done depends on the alignment of the victim: 1d6 points of damage for chaotic characters, 1d8 for neutral characters and 1d10 for lawful characters.






			
				MMC said:
			
		

> When they find a victim, the malices immediately launch themselves at it. The creatures attack as 9 Hit Dice monsters, and the amount of damage their vicious bite inflicts depends on the victim's alignment: 1d10 for good characters (whom the malices especially despise), 1d8 for neutral characters, and 1d6 points of damage for evil characters. Clerics can turn malices as spectres. A malice normally attacks until destroyed or turned. However, all these creatures vanish instantly if their philosopher is destroyed.




"Touch of Malice/Spiteful Touch" (Su):  The touch of a malice deals 1d10 points of damage to good-aligned creatures, 1d8 points of damage to neutral-aligned creatures, and 1d6 points of damage to evil-aligned creatures.  Additionally, it is treated as evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.



			
				DMR2 said:
			
		

> Both the philosopher and the malices are immune to mind-affecting magic (cham, phantasmal force, etc.) and to attacks from nonmagical weapons.






			
				MMC said:
			
		

> Both the philosopher and its malices are immune to mind-affecting magic (charm, phantasmal force, etc.) and to attacks from nonmagical weapons.




Same immunities as philosopher.  DR 5/magic and silver?


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Dex damage of the Dying Shriek - Damage or Drain? I prefer Drain.




Add another vote for drain.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> And how about this?
> 
> *Unwavering Concentration (Ex): *Whilst a gray philosopher is contemplating its unresolved problem it pays no attention to what is going on around it. As such, it is immune to turning or rebuking attempts, automatically fails Reflex saves and automatically makes any Concentration checks.




I like it.    

Back to the malice




			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> *Feats: *I realised after suggesting Weapon Finesse that the malice doesn't qualify for it, lacking the +1 BAB so if we give it the feat it will have to be as a bonus.
> 
> A side effect of giving it Weapon Finesse with it's (suggested) Dex 20 means an attack bonus of +5, quite similar to a 9HD undead!
> 
> Other than that, how about Flyby Attack?




I'm fine with either Weapon Finesse or Flyby Attack (or both) as bonus feats.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 28, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> *Unwavering Concentration (Ex): *Whilst a gray philosopher is contemplating its unresolved problem it pays no attention to what is going on around it. As such, it is immune to turning or rebuking attempts, automatically fails Reflex saves and automatically makes any Concentration checks.




if it automatically succeeds on Concentration checks, are we still giving it ranks in that skill?  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> We should modify this for the "squeeze through gaps" ability...
> 
> Amorphous (Ex) Bludgeoning weapons and impact damage deal no damage to Juiblex. He is able to slip through spaces that otherwise could accommodate a creature no larger than Tiny because of his jellylike substance.




first of all, are malices incorporeal or will they have a physical form?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Bound to Philosopher (Su):  A malice can never stray more than 100 feet from the gray philosopher that created it.  Should it be forcefully moved from this area, it (is immediately destroyed? must immediately return to within 100 feet by the fastest means possible?  something else?).   If the gray philosopher that created a malice is destroyed, the malice is instantly destroyed.




i would say must immediately return.  we can also work this part in:

A malice uses its gray philosopher’s base attack bonus. A malice uses its own Dexterity modifier on attack rolls with its natural weapons. (and can share its skills and feats?)



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Spectres have +2 turn resistance in 3.5.




turn resistance is good.  however, since these guys are low in HD, +2 turn resistance won't help a whole lot.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> "Touch of Malice/Spiteful Touch" (Su):  The touch of a malice deals 1d10 points of damage to good-aligned creatures, 1d8 points of damage to neutral-aligned creatures, and 1d6 points of damage to evil-aligned creatures.  Additionally, it is treated as evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.




i like it.    Spiteful Touch works for me.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Same immunities as philosopher.  DR 5/magic and silver?




as long as we're typing them as Undead, that should work.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'm fine with either Weapon Finesse or Flyby Attack (or both) as bonus feats.




not sure they should get two bonus feats...


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> if it automatically succeeds on Concentration checks, are we still giving it ranks in that skill?




Nope.  Divvy 'em up with the existing Knowledge skills or add another one, I'd suggest.




			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> first of all, are malices incorporeal or will they have a physical form?




I thought we decided on philosopher=incorporeal, malice=corporeal.   If not, then this ability isn't necessary.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i would say must immediately return.  we can also work this part in:
> 
> A malice uses its gray philosopher’s base attack bonus. A malice uses its own Dexterity modifier on attack rolls with its natural weapons. (and can share its skills and feats?)




That works, assuming we stick with Weapon Finesse.  Otherwise, we might want to clarify why it uses its Dex modifier rather than Str.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> turn resistance is good.  however, since these guys are low in HD, +2 turn resistance won't help a whole lot.




True.   Since spectres are 7 HD, that would make them the equivalent of 9 HD.  Since the philosopher is 9 HD, we could state that malices use the philosopher's HD for purposes of turn attempts, and drop turn resistance altogether.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> not sure they should get two bonus feats...




That's fine, although I think Flyby Attack really fits their original description well.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 28, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> turn resistance is good.  however, since these guys are low in HD, +2 turn resistance won't help a whole lot.



Just noticed that with the +2 Turn Resistance the spectre counts has having 9HD for turning purposes - the same number of HD as the gray philosopher, spooky. Don't remember if it worked out the same in previous editions.   

<edit>Looks like Shade beat me to that. 

So, maybe, we can roll its turning chance into the other abilities it gets from the philosopher?



> Spiteful Touch works for me.



Sounds good.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Mortis (Nov 28, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Nope.  Divvy 'em up with the existing Knowledge skills or add another one, I'd suggest.



Agreed.



> I thought we decided on philosopher=incorporeal, malice=corporeal.   If not, then this ability isn't necessary.



Had we? I must have missed it. I had opted for malice=incorporeal, but if not then that ability works fine.



> That's fine, although I think Flyby Attack really fits their original description well.



Well it gets 1 feat due to its 1 HD, so that's Flyby Attack and then give it Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Well it gets 1 feat due to its 1 HD, so that's Flyby Attack and then give it Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.




Not if it's mindless.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 28, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Not if it's mindless.



True, but skeletons and zombies are mindless and they get Improved Init and Toughness respectively as standard feats. So there is a precident. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> True, but skeletons and zombies are mindless and they get Improved Init and Toughness respectively as standard feats. So there is a precident.




It looks like they forgot the "B".  According to the templates...

Feats: A skeleton loses all feats of the base creature and gains Improved Initiative.

Feats: A zombie loses all feats of the base creature and gains Toughness.

While it doesn't specifically use the words "bonus feat", that is the case when a monster gains one via a template.

Bad MM.  No biscuit.   :\


----------



## Mortis (Nov 28, 2006)

Weeee...eeellllll if we go down the road of letting the malice use the philosophers feats then all we have to do is give the philosopher Weapon Finesse (or Flyby Attack). 

Or maybe it would be easier to five the malice a special ability to replicate Weapon Finesse.

If we only give it one of the two feats, I think Flyby Attack fits it better.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 28, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> I thought we decided on philosopher=incorporeal, malice=corporeal.   If not, then this ability isn't necessary.






			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Had we? I must have missed it. I had opted for malice=incorporeal, but if not then that ability works fine.




i'll let you guys talk that one out amongst yourselves.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> That works, assuming we stick with Weapon Finesse.  Otherwise, we might want to clarify why it uses its Dex modifier rather than Str.




i'm fine either way with making WF a bonus feat or switching out one of the GP's feats (probably the former is better than the latter).



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> True.   Since spectres are 7 HD, that would make them the equivalent of 9 HD.  Since the philosopher is 9 HD, we could state that malices use the philosopher's HD for purposes of turn attempts, and drop turn resistance altogether.




works for me.  see below. 



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> That's fine, although I think Flyby Attack really fits their original description well.




i'll go by your discretion then.  

how's this?  should we split that up into two abilities or just two paragraphs?  
Bound to Philosopher (Su): A malice can never stray more than 100 feet from the gray philosopher that created it. Should it be forcefully moved from this area, it must immediately return to within 100 feet by the fastest means possible. If the gray philosopher that created a malice is destroyed, the malice is also instantly destroyed. A malice uses its gray philosopher’s base attack bonus and can use any skills and feats the gray philosopher has access to. A malice uses its gray philosopher’s Hit Dice for the purposes of turning attempts (and cannot be commanded?).  A malice uses its own Dexterity modifier on attack rolls with its natural weapons.


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i'll let you guys talk that one out amongst yourselves.




Looking back through this thread, I apparently already conceded to the incorporeal majority (see post #905).    

That will eliminate the need for Weapon Finesse.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> how's this?  should we split that up into two abilities or just two paragraphs?
> 
> Bound to Philosopher (Su): A malice can never stray more than 100 feet from the gray philosopher that created it. Should it be forcefully moved from this area, it must immediately return to within 100 feet by the fastest means possible. If the gray philosopher that created a malice is destroyed, the malice is also instantly destroyed. A malice uses its gray philosopher’s base attack bonus and can use any skills and feats the gray philosopher has access to. A malice uses its gray philosopher’s Hit Dice for the purposes of turning attempts (and cannot be commanded?).  A malice uses its own Dexterity modifier on attack rolls with its natural weapons.




Two paragraphs, methinks.  I'm not sure the malice should use all the philosopher's feats...what business does a mindless thing have using Knowledge skills?  Perhaps call out specific skills that make sense (Spot, Listen, Search, etc.)?


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 28, 2006)

LOL - apparently that makes things a lot easier then, doesn't it?  

we'll make them incorporeal, and give them Flyby Attack as a bonus feat, nuff said i imagine. 

can a mindless creature use untrained skills like Listen and Spot with just its Wis modifier?  if so, then it really has no need to access the GP's skills at all.


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> can a mindless creature use untrained skills like Listen and Spot with just its Wis modifier?  if so, then it really has no need to access the GP's skills at all.




Yep, they can use skills.  They simply don't get ranks.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 29, 2006)

that's what i thought.    how do we want to handle it getting the GP's feats then, or do we want to cut that as well?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 29, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> that's what i thought.    how do we want to handle it getting the GP's feats then, or do we want to cut that as well?



I think we can cut it, if we do though we should probably replace the philosopher's Improved Init feat as it has no use of it.

The malice's Dex should give it a decent initiative bonus without bothering with Improved Init.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 29, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I think we can cut it, if we do though we should probably replace the philosopher's Improved Init feat as it has no use of it.
> 
> The malice's Dex should give it a decent initiative bonus without bothering with Improved Init.




Agreed.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 29, 2006)

what feat, then, shall we replace it with?


----------



## Shade (Nov 29, 2006)

Diligent was brought up earlier.  It's a shame that Improved Toughness isn't in the SRD.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 29, 2006)

that should be fine, since in the end it really doesn't matter.


----------



## Shade (Nov 29, 2006)

I tried so hard, and got so far...


----------



## Mortis (Dec 2, 2006)

Here's what we've got so far. Comments and suggestions in *bold*.

Malice
Tiny Undead (Incorporeal) 
Hit Dice: 1d12 (6 hp)
Initiative: *+5 (+5 Dex)*
Speed : *Fly 40 ft. (8 squares) (perfect)* 
Armor Class: *19 (+5 Dex, +2 size, +2 deflection), touch 19, flat-footed 17* 
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/- 
Attack: *Bite +11 melee (Spiteful Touch) – Do we want to make this a touch attack? I would suggest not – it’s dangerous enough.*
Full Attack: *Bite +11 melee (Spiteful Touch)* 
Space/Reach: 2 1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Spiteful Touch
Special Qualities: Damage Reduction 5/magic and silver, darkvision 60 ft., incorporeal traits, undead traits
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str -, Dex 20, Con -, Int 0, Wis 10, Cha 14
Skills: - 
Feats: Flyby Attack (B)
Environment: *Any land, underground, and aquatic* – same as philosopher!
Organization: X
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: *Usually neutral evil* – usual for mindless undead and in keeping with 2e. 
Advancement: *2-3 HD (Tiny)* – reasonable? 
Level Adjustment: -

Bound to Philosopher (Su): A malice can never stray more than 100 feet from the gray philosopher that created it. Should it be forcefully moved from this area, it must immediately return to within 100 feet by the fastest means possible. If the gray philosopher that created a malice is destroyed, the malice is also instantly destroyed. 
A malice uses its gray philosopher’s base attack bonus and can use any skills *(and feats – have we agreed to remove this?)* the gray philosopher has access to. A malice uses its gray philosopher’s Hit Dice for the purposes of turning attempts (and cannot be commanded?). *A malice uses its own Dexterity modifier on attack rolls with its natural weapons? – Do we need to explicitly state this as it is a feature of the incorporeal subtype*

Spiteful Touch (Su): The touch of a malice deals 1d10 points of damage to good-aligned creatures, 1d8 points of damage to neutral-aligned creatures, and 1d6 points of damage to evil-aligned creatures. Additionally, it is treated as evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Thinking about CR for a moment - it looks like things may get turned on their head, with the malice getting a higher CR than the philosopher!

For Organization we should have something more evocative than 'group' - maybe something to do with thoughts? a 'jumble', a 'muddle', a 'release'... etc.

Then again I like a 'Malevolence' 

I presume, BOZ, that you are going to include the malice in the grey philosopher's post in homebrews, rather than a seperate post. We're getting very close to another 10 conversions and a seperate post could mean we have to wait awhile to see the malice in all its glory. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Dec 2, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Attack: *Bite +11 melee (Spiteful Touch) – Do we want to make this a touch attack? I would suggest not – it’s dangerous enough.*
> Full Attack: *Bite +11 melee (Spiteful Touch)*




does it matter, though?  as an incorporeal attack, would there be any difference between a bite and a touch?



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Special Qualities: Damage Reduction 5/magic and silver




did we want that to be 5?  or do they need a DR at all?



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Abilities: Str -, Dex 20, Con -, Int 0, Wis 10, Cha 14




did we talk about the Dex, Wis, and Cha earlier?  i don't remember...



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Alignment: *Usually neutral evil* – usual for mindless undead and in keeping with 2e.




plus, it also matches what we gave the philosopher anyway.  



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Advancement: *2-3 HD (Tiny)* – reasonable?




sure.  



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> *A malice uses its own Dexterity modifier on attack rolls with its natural weapons? – Do we need to explicitly state this as it is a feature of the incorporeal subtype*




good point - we can clip that out.  



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Thinking about CR for a moment - it looks like things may get turned on their head, with the malice getting a higher CR than the philosopher!




it's definitely possible.    or they may both be the same, at 2 or 3.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> For Organization we should have something more evocative than 'group' - maybe something to do with thoughts? a 'jumble', a 'muddle', a 'release'... etc.
> 
> Then again I like a 'Malevolence'




definite possibilities.  



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> I presume, BOZ, that you are going to include the malice in the grey philosopher's post in homebrews, rather than a seperate post. We're getting very close to another 10 conversions and a seperate post could mean we have to wait awhile to see the malice in all its glory.




yes, as a matter of fact, i just posted what i have so far, as of yesterday afternoon.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Dec 2, 2006)

The malice's intelligence should be -, not 0.  0 intelligence indicates a creature is helpless.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 4, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> does it matter, though?  as an incorporeal attack, would there be any difference between a bite and a touch?



No - I'd just forgot that that incorporeal creature ignores armour anyway. My excuse was that I was up til 2.00am playing Neverwinter Nights 2 and got up at 6.30am for work. 



> did we want that to be 5?  or do they need a DR at all?



Maybe not, as incorporeal they're immune to nonmagical weapons anyway.



> did we talk about the Dex, Wis, and Cha earlier?  i don't remember...



Not as such, but as they were my suggestions naturally they're fine. Actually I forgot to put them in bold, see 1st point for reason.   

I think Wis will be 10 though, other mindless undead such as skeletons and zombies have their Wis set to 10. 



> it's definitely possible.    or they may both be the same, at 2 or 3.



Obviously we need to see the final versions. 



> yes, as a matter of fact, i just posted what i have so far, as of yesterday afternoon.



That's good



			
				GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> The malice's intelligence should be -, not 0. 0 intelligence indicates a creature is helpless.



Good catch.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 4, 2006)

I'd stick with DR/silver at least, since magical weapons can hit them.

Do they really need advancement?  They exist only at the philospher's whims.  Do they actually get larger the longer he keeps them around, or do greater philospher's create greater malices?


----------



## Mortis (Dec 4, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'd stick with DR/silver at least, since magical weapons can hit them.



I'm not bothered either way .  

If you go for DR/silver it technically is DR/silver and magic because as you've pointed out they can only be affected by magical weapons.. 



> Do they really need advancement?  They exist only at the philospher's whims.  Do they actually get larger the longer he keeps them around, or do greater philospher's create greater malices?



Some thoughts are more dangerous than others. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Dec 4, 2006)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> The malice's intelligence should be -, not 0.  0 intelligence indicates a creature is helpless.




Correct!  



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> No - I'd just forgot that that incorporeal creature ignores armour anyway. My excuse was that I was up til 2.00am playing Neverwinter Nights 2 and got up at 6.30am for work.




Likely story!    I can make a note in the text that they appear to bite and scratch at their foes.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Maybe not, as incorporeal they're immune to nonmagical weapons anyway.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'd stick with DR/silver at least, since magical weapons can hit them.






			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> I'm not bothered either way .




Me either.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> If you go for DR/silver it technically is DR/silver and magic because as you've pointed out they can only be affected by magical weapons..




Right – which is what I did with the GP anyway.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Not as such, but as they were my suggestions naturally they're fine. Actually I forgot to put them in bold, see 1st point for reason.
> 
> I think Wis will be 10 though, other mindless undead such as skeletons and zombies have their Wis set to 10.




OK, we can go Dex 20, Wis 10, and Cha 14 then.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Obviously we need to see the final versions.




Naturally.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Do they really need advancement?  They exist only at the philospher's whims.  Do they actually get larger the longer he keeps them around, or do greater philospher's create greater malices?






			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Some thoughts are more dangerous than others.




Heh… advancement seems like a good idea to me.    but it’s not particularly important, either.  I could definitely see a malice getting more powerful as the GP gets older…



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> A malice uses its own Dexterity modifier on attack rolls with its natural weapons? – Do we need to explicitly state this as it is a feature of the incorporeal subtype




On second thought, yes.  I think we need to state that it uses its own Dex mod, since it is using the GP’s BAB.


----------



## Shade (Dec 4, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Likely story!    I can make a note in the text that they appear to bite and scratch at their foes.




Cool.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Me either.






			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Right – which is what I did with the GP anyway.




Well, since I "care", let's go with silver.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, we can go Dex 20, Wis 10, and Cha 14 then.




That works for me.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Heh… advancement seems like a good idea to me.    but it’s not particularly important, either.  I could definitely see a malice getting more powerful as the GP gets older…




So bet it.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> On second thought, yes.  I think we need to state that it uses its own Dex mod, since it is using the GP’s BAB.




Agreed.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 4, 2006)

you care a lot!    5/silver it is, then.

updating...


----------



## Shade (Dec 4, 2006)

Incorporeal critters almost always have perfect maneuverability, and I see no reason not to do so with the malice.

CR 3?  Low-level parties will have a tough time even striking them.

I like "malevolence" for the organization.  Or "brainstorm".


----------



## Mortis (Dec 4, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Incorporeal critters almost always have perfect maneuverability, and I see no reason not to do so with the malice.



Agreed



> CR 3?  Low-level parties will have a tough time even striking them.



Looks about right.



> I like "malevolence" for the organization.  Or "brainstorm".



I'll stick with 'malevolence' it will look good in the philosopher's Organization line 'Solitary + a malevolence of malices (2-8)'.

What else is there 'just' the flavour text?

One thing though



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Bound to Philosopher (Su): A malice can never stray more than 100 feet from the gray philosopher that created it. Should it be forcefully moved from this area, it must immediately return to within 100 feet by the fastest means possible. If the gray philosopher that created a malice is destroyed, the malice is also instantly destroyed. *A malice uses its gray philosopher’s base attack bonus.* A malice uses its gray philosopher’s Hit Dice for the purposes of turning attempts (and cannot be commanded?). *A malice uses its own Dexterity modifier on attack rolls with its natural weapons.*




Would it be better if we joined these two (emboldened) statements into one sentence or at least have them as two neighbouring sentences?

We also need to decide whether or not it can be commanded.

Going back to the philosopher, we still need:-

SR and CR

We can remove the 'create malice' ability as, has already been said, it won't happen in an encounter.

I think it will be okay to state that the gray philosopher starts its existence with 2-8 malices, and creates an additional 2-8 for every century of its existence.

For treasure I suggest books and scrolls could work, preferably in ancient languages. 

Anything I've missed from either creature?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 4, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Would it be better if we joined these two (emboldened) statements into one sentence or at least have them as two neighbouring sentences?




Good call.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> We also need to decide whether or not it can be commanded.




I'd say no--only turned, destroyed, or bolstered.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Going back to the philosopher, we still need:-
> 
> SR and CR




We sorta agreed on CR 2 earlier, and SR = 12 + CR, thus 14.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> We can remove the 'create malice' ability as, has already been said, it won't happen in an encounter.




Good point.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> I think it will be okay to state that the gray philosopher starts its existence with 2-8 malices, and creates an additional 2-8 for every century of its existence.




That works for me.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> For treasure I suggest books and scrolls could work, preferably in ancient languages.




Cool.   Maybe standard coins; double goods (mostly books); double items (mostly scrolls)?


----------



## Mortis (Dec 4, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'd say no--only turned, destroyed, or bolstered.



Okay with me.



> We sorta agreed on CR 2 earlier, and SR = 12 + CR, thus 14.



That we did.   



> Cool.   Maybe standard coins; double goods (mostly books); double items (mostly scrolls)?



Works for me.

Just the flavour text then?

Plus I think we may be close to another 10 conversions in the 'new conversions' thread.
Yup! When the gray philosopher/malice and Vore are finished that will be the next 10. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 4, 2006)

Coolness!

With each Mystara conversion we get ever closer to the one I've been waiting for...the death demon (ostego).


----------



## BOZ (Dec 4, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> We also need to decide whether or not it can be commanded.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'd say no--only turned, destroyed, or bolstered.




I agree.    does it need some sort of ability for this?



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Going back to the philosopher, we still need:-
> 
> SR and CR






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> We sorta agreed on CR 2 earlier, and SR = 12 + CR, thus 14.




I guess if we change our minds later, we can always adjust it.  



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> I think it will be okay to state that the gray philosopher starts its existence with 2-8 malices, and creates an additional 2-8 for every century of its existence.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> That works for me.




Yeah, I’m fine with it as well.    I could just as easily see less when it’s created, but in the end it’s probably just as well to let it have as many as 8 (that way the DM can decide just how high the EL should be).


----------



## Shade (Dec 4, 2006)

How 'bout this?

"Dedicated Servant" (Su):  As an extension of the gray philsopher that created it, a malice cannot be rebuked or commanded, but can be bolstered, destroyed, or turned normally.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 5, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> How 'bout this?
> 
> "Dedicated Servant" (Su):  As an extension of the gray philsopher that created it, a malice cannot be rebuked or commanded, but can be bolstered, destroyed, or turned normally.



That works


			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> (that way the DM can decide just how high the EL should be).



Exactaly

Looking at the malice in homebrews, you don't seem to have included its gray philosopher's BAB in the attack lines. If/when you do should we add something along the lines of 'included in the stats above' (or however WotC phrase something like that - such as when they include a built-in power attack value) to the relevant section.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Dec 5, 2006)

hmm, oversight on my part - thanks!   and yes, there should probably be a parenthetical note, however that should be stated.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 5, 2006)

OK, updated.


----------



## Shade (Dec 5, 2006)

It looks like all that's missing is the organization lines and consensus on the treasure line of the philospher and CR of the malice.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 5, 2006)

organization...  let's see.  a base GP would have 2-8.  we could just go with that.  it's possible that the GP would be older and thus have more, but it's just as possible that someone got into its lair and killed a few.  2-8 sound fair enough?

treasure... in BD&D it was given treasure type O, but in 2E it was given no treasure at all.  does type O (negative) indicate anything beyond bokos and scrolls that we might want to give it, or should we just stick with what we have now?


----------



## Shade (Dec 5, 2006)

2-8 and stick with what we have now works for me.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Dec 6, 2006)

bump for Mortis.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 8, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> bump for Mortis.



Had a couple of days off 

2-8 malices and stick to what we have for treasure. I can check what type O gives though if you like.

One last thing, we're still missing the amount of Dex drained with the Shriek of Fear.



			
				Homebrews said:
			
		

> Shriek of Fear (Su): At the moment of a gray philosopher’s death, it unleashes a horrifying shriek. Living creatures within 60 feet must succeed on a DC 19 Will save or take *X points of Dexterity drain and be shaken*. The shaken effect can be removed from a creature with a remove fear or remove curse spell. The save DC is Charisma-based.




In the 2e MMC it lost 1 point, but I suggest upping it to 2. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 8, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> In the 2e MMC it lost 1 point, but I suggest upping it to 2.




I agree.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Dec 8, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I can check what type O gives though if you like.




if you don't mind, sure.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 9, 2006)

Type O Treasure

No coins
No Gems
No Jewellry
10% 1d3 Special Items
50% 1d4 Scrolls

Special Items include books, furs, perfume, rare spices etc.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Maybe standard coins; double goods (mostly books); double items (mostly scrolls)?




So change it to no coins; double goods (mostly books); double items (scrolls only)?

Just need to confirm CR for malice and the number of malices in the Organization lines.

Here's an idea, maybe the gray philosopher advances a Hit Dice each century - you could then tie in the additional malices to increases in Hit Dice.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Dec 11, 2006)

i set the treasure line up like this:
Treasure: Standard coins; double goods (75% books); double items (scrolls only)

advancing 1 HD per century doesn't seem so appropriate for 3E, as i understand it.  however, perhaps if you like, we could say that it gains maybe 1d4 malices per HD it gains?


----------



## Shade (Dec 11, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i set the treasure line up like this:
> Treasure: Standard coins; double goods (75% books); double items (scrolls only)




Looks good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> advancing 1 HD per century doesn't seem so appropriate for 3E, as i understand it.  however, perhaps if you like, we could say that it gains maybe 1d4 malices per HD it gains?




There is precedence for the "by century" bit.  See evolved undead in Libris Mortis.    

I'm fine with the other option, though.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 12, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i set the treasure line up like this:
> Treasure: Standard coins; double goods (75% books); double items (scrolls only)



Any reason for coins when the original didn't have any?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> advancing 1 HD per century doesn't seem so appropriate for 3E, as i understand it.  however,





			
				Shade said:
			
		

> There is precedence for the "by century" bit. See evolved undead in Libris Mortis.



It seemed like a neat solution to me, although I wasn't aware of the prescedent.


			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> perhaps if you like, we could say that it gains maybe 1d4 malices per HD it gains?





			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'm fine with the other option, though.



Me too. Although maybe:-

*Advancing a Gray Philosopher:* The closer a gray philosopher gets to solving it's ancient conundrum the more determined it becomes in achieving its goal. For every century of contemplation a gray philosopher gains an additional hit dice and also creates 2d4 malices as it's other, less focused thoughts escape it's control.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Dec 12, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Any reason for coins when the original didn't have any?




none whatsoever.  



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Me too. Although maybe:-
> 
> *Advancing a Gray Philosopher:* The closer a gray philosopher gets to solving it's ancient conundrum the more determined it becomes in achieving its goal. For every century of contemplation a gray philosopher gains an additional hit dice and also creates 2d4 malices as it's other, less focused thoughts escape it's control.




the problem there is, it ties the creature down even further to specific timeframes and advancement rates.  i'd think that some GPs could gain a hit die in a few decades or less, while some might take centuries just to get one HD, depending on each one's personality.

personally, i think going with gaining malices at each HD gained is sufficient, and tying advancement to a specific passage of time seems too constricting.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 13, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> personally, i think going with gaining malices at each HD gained is sufficient, and tying advancement to a specific passage of time seems too constricting.



Ok is it done then?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Knightfall (Dec 13, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Ok is it done then?
> 
> Regards
> Mortis



*Question:* Why does the GP have a +4 to it's Initiative? Is it supposed to have Improved Initiative, as one of its feats?


----------



## Mortis (Dec 13, 2006)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *Question:* Why does the GP have a +4 to it's Initiative? Is it supposed to have Improved Initiative, as one of its feats?



It used to have Imp Init but it was removed due to the fact that it couldn't use it and the malice didn't need it. I guess we forgot to remove the bonus from the Initiative line.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Dec 15, 2006)

consider that fixed.  

how are the CRs?  2 for GP and 3 for malice?

otherwise, i don't think we missed anything else.  updating once more; see if there's anything else that needs attention.


----------



## Shade (Dec 15, 2006)

Yes to CRs.  Everything else looks good.

*OST*ensibly, w*E* are ready to *GO* on to the next one.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 15, 2006)

I'd say we're done.

Shall we let Shade choose the next one. I don't know if he's got one in mind though. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Dec 16, 2006)

heheh    not to disappoint anyone, but i've got a few others "in queue" already that i want to get to first.    but you can conisder the ostego next in line for this thread!

more on that tomorrow and/or sunday!


----------



## Shade (Dec 18, 2006)

Patience is supposedly a virtue, so I'm rapidly approaching paladin status.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 18, 2006)

hahahahaha!!!!


----------



## Shade (Dec 18, 2006)

Well, uh, would you accept "reformed blackguard"?


----------



## BOZ (Dec 18, 2006)

much better.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Dec 28, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> consider that fixed.
> 
> how are the CRs?  2 for GP and 3 for malice?
> 
> otherwise, i don't think we missed anything else.  updating once more; see if there's anything else that needs attention.




Jumping in rather late - why not consider the malices and the gray philosopher as one creature, and then bump up the CR based on both HD and/or # of malices?  It's almost like a wizard and his summoned creatures...


----------



## Mortis (May 11, 2007)

BOZ

Is the Ostego due next after the first batch of the Dukes of Hell or do you have something else planned?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (May 11, 2007)

nothing planned at the moment.  i'm actually enjoying the changed pace of working on one creature at a time.  keep reminding me as we get close to finishing up a batch - i'll do a critter conversion or two to keep up at least a little bit of variety.


----------



## Shade (May 14, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> BOZ
> 
> Is the Ostego due next after the first batch of the Dukes of Hell or do you have something else planned?
> 
> ...




It's my longest-running requested creature.  I think I first started requesting work on it back in '02.  To do it now would be almost like releasing Duke Nukem Forever or Guns n' Rose's _Chinese Democracy _ CD.


----------



## Mortis (May 14, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> It's my longest-running requested creature.  I think I first started requesting work on it back in '02.  To do it now would be almost like releasing Duke Nukem Forever or <snip>



Would that be Duke Nukem *Wait* Forever.  

Perhaps we should just keep Shade waiting   

Then again it's bound to appear on the WotC's Mystara board before long the way Jamie's getting through the conversions.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (May 14, 2007)

he hasn't done it yet?


----------



## Mortis (May 14, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> he hasn't done it yet?



No not yet.

There is a conversion here. Follow the 'Ecology' link.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 20, 2007)

BOZ gave me the go-ahead to lead some conversion threads while he focuses on the Dukes of Hell.   Here's one I've been dying to do for several years.    

Death Demon
Armor Class: 4
Hit Dice: 7** 
Move: 90' (30') Fly 180' (60')
Attacks: 3 
Damage: 1-4/1-4/2-8 +special
No. Appearing: 1-4
Save As: Fighter 7
Morale: 10
Treasure Type: E
Alignment: Chaotic 

Death demons, also known as Ostegos, appear as 10' tall gaunt, hairless humanoids with gray scaly skin. Ivory fangs protrude from their mouths and their fingers are tipped with adamantine talons.  Their eyes glow like smoldering coals and two huge bat-like wings
grow out of their back.

Death demons attack with their claws and fangs. Any creature struck by its claw must save vs. Paralysis or be paralyzed for 2-8 turns. Any creature bitten by a death demon must save vs. Poison at -2 or die.

Death demons also have infravision, 60 range, and the abilities to teleport with no error and cause darkness, 10 radius.

Source:  X2 Castle Amber.

Echohawk's index shows that it also appeared in AC9, DMR2, and Twilight of the Dawn.  Can someone with these sources handy post any differences in these stats?


----------



## Mortis (Jun 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Here's one I've been dying to do for several years.
> 
> Death Demon
> <snip>



Yay!



> Echohawk's index shows that it also appeared in AC9, DMR2, and Twilight of the Dawn.  Can someone with these sources handy post any differences in these stats?



I can check DMR2 tonight.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Jun 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Echohawk's index shows that it also appeared in AC9, DMR2, and Twilight of the Dawn.  Can someone with these sources handy post any differences in these stats?




i can try to do that when i get the chance.  i don't know what Twilight of the Dawn is, and i doubt that i have it.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 20, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i can try to do that when i get the chance.  i don't know what Twilight of the Dawn is, and i doubt that i have it.



It's Cthulhudrew's Mystara website and the stats are for a 3.5e version.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 20, 2007)

Thanks, guys.  It appears we only need AC9 and DMR2, then.


----------



## Echohawk (Jun 20, 2007)

AC9 looks nearly identical, but includes:
XP Value: 1250
DMR2 also lists this XP value, plus a few other minor additions:
Hit Dice: 7** (L)
Intelligence: 8
Monster Type: Planar Monster (Very Rare)
Twilight of Dawn isn't an official product, but the name of the fan site where this conversion appears.


----------



## Shade (Jun 20, 2007)

Great, thanks!

In that case, we should be able to get going on this.

First off, do we make it tanar'ri, or leave it as an untyped demon?   The flavor text is so light that we've got plenty of wiggle room.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Great, thanks!



Yeah saves me a job. 



> First off, do we make it tanar'ri, or leave it as an untyped demon?   The flavor text is so light that we've got plenty of wiggle room.



I'd go untyped there are enough tanar'ri around. Or perhaps one or the other types from FC I?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Jun 20, 2007)

untyped.


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Jun 20, 2007)

definetely untyped.


----------



## Shade (Jun 20, 2007)

The untyped masses have spoken!    

Refresh my memory...what's with the parenthetical movement rates?



> Move: 90' (30') Fly 180' (60')




I'm thinking 30 ft., fly 60 ft. seems more appropriate.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 21, 2007)

Basic (human etc) movement was 120' (40') so you may want to go with 20 ft. fly (50 ft.).

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 21, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Basic (human etc) movement was 120' (40') so you may want to go with 20 ft. fly (50 ft.).




That seems a bit slow for a Large demon, though doesn't it?


----------



## Mortis (Jun 21, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> That seems a bit slow for a Large demon, though doesn't it?



True 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 21, 2007)

Here's a preliminary stat block...

Demon, Death (Ostego)
Large Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 7d8+x (x hp)
Initiative: +x
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 60 ft. (average?)
Armor Class: x (–1 size, +x Dex, +x natural), touch x, flat-footed x
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+11 plus Str
Attack: Claw +x melee (xdx+x plus paralysis)
Full Attack: 2 claws +x melee (xdx+x plus paralysis) and bite +x melee (xdx+x plus poison)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Adamantine claws, spell-like abilities, summon demon (?)
Special Qualities: Damage reduction ?, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to ?, resistance to ?, spell resistance ?, telepathy 100 ft.
Saves: Fort +x, Ref +x, Will +x
Abilities: Str x, Dex x, Con x, Int x, Wis x, Cha x
Skills: x
Feats: 3
Environment: Infinite Layers of the Abyss
Organization: Solitary, pair, or squad (1–4)
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: Standard(?)
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 8–14 HD (Large); 15–21 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: +?


----------



## Mortis (Jun 22, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Refresh my memory...what's with the parenthetical movement rates?



The first number is how far (in feet) a creature moves in a 10 minute turn, the second number is the number of feet it moves in a 10 second round.

They explain the slow turn speed, at least for pc's, by the fact that the pc's are moving quietly, mapping, peeking round corners etc.

Regards
Mortis


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## Mortis (Jun 22, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Skills: x



If we look at the stats from DMR2 it has an Int of 8, which gives 70 skill points.

<edit>Sorry forgot about x4 for 1st HD - corrected now    

Made a bit of a difference in skill points.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> If we look at the stats from DMR2 it has an Int of 8, which gives 49 skill points.




Does Int 8 seem to low?  Even the jarilith has Int 8.  And the lowly rutterkin has Int 9.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 23, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Does Int 8 seem to low?  Even the jarilith has Int 8.  And the lowly rutterkin has Int 9.



A bit maybe, but I wouldn't increase it too much 10-11, 12 at the absolute maximum.

Care to post the ability scores of demons with approx. the same HD?

or how about

Str 18, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 11

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Mortis (Jun 23, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Death demons, also known as Ostegos, appear as 10' tall gaunt, hairless humanoids with gray scaly skin. Ivory fangs protrude from their mouths and their fingers are tipped with *adamantine talons*.  Their eyes glow like smoldering coals and two huge bat-like wings grow out of their back.



Count as adamantine for the purposes of bypassing DR etc?



> Any creature struck by its claw must save vs. Paralysis or be paralyzed for 2-8 turns.



That's 20 - 80 minutes which seems rather long... 


> Any creature bitten by a death demon must save vs. Poison at -2 or die.



Con damage with Ability Focus (poison) or just a special ability to save a feat. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Jun 23, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Count as adamantine for the purposes of bypassing DR etc?
> 
> 
> That's 20 - 80 minutes which seems rather long...
> ...




Not as long as a lich's paralysis.

I agree with the adamantine claws.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Jun 23, 2007)

The goristro, which is CR 16 in Fiendish Codex I, has an intelligence of 5.

Not all demons need to be brilliant tacticians.


----------



## Shade (Jun 25, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Count as adamantine for the purposes of bypassing DR etc?




Yep.  I know there are a few monsters that do this already...just need to locate 'em.    



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> That's 20 - 80 minutes which seems rather long...




Yeah, that does.   At that length, might as well just say 1 hour for simplicity's sake.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Con damage with Ability Focus (poison) or just a special ability to save a feat.




Either way.   Racial bonuses are used on occasion.    



			
				GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> The goristro, which is CR 16 in Fiendish Codex I, has an intelligence of 5.
> 
> Not all demons need to be brilliant tacticians.




True, but the goristro is more the exception than the rule, being little more than a siege engine/pet.

Still, I suppose 8 isn't so bad.  The jarilith still has a fair array of tactics and spell-like abilities at Int 8.  We should take a look at the module again and see how the ostegos behaved when used.   

Here are stats for some other 6-8 HD demons...

Uridezu: Str 13, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 14
Colchiln: Str 22, Dex 8, Con 28, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 10
Succubus: Str 13, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 26
Ekolid: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 13
Bar-lgura: Str 22, Dex 19, Con 19, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 12
Earth Demon: Str 17, Dex 8, Con 16, Int 5, Wis 8, Cha 7
Skurchur: Str 15, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 19, Cha 18
Babau: Str 21, Dex 12, Con 20, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 16

So assuming Int 8 and modifying Mortis's earlier suggestion slightly, how does this look?

Str 19, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 12


----------



## Mortis (Jun 25, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> So assuming Int 8 and modifying Mortis's earlier suggestion slightly, how does this look?
> 
> Str 19, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 12



Close enough for me to agree with. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 25, 2007)

Started in Homebrews.


----------



## Shade (Jun 27, 2007)

Here's some more on the death demon from Castle Amber.  This might shed some more insight...



> A pentagram surrounded by a circle has been painted in white paint on the floor in the middle of this room. An amber colored candle burns at each point of the pentagram. A hunting horn of amber hangs from a peg on one wall. There is movement in the darkness in the center of the pentagram and you see standing there a 10 tall humanoid covered with a dull gray scaly skin. Its gaunt body is hairless. Ivory fangs protrude from its mouth and its fingers end in metallic talons. Its eyes glow like smoldering coals and two huge bat-like wings grow out of its back.
> 
> The creature inside the pentagram is a death demon (AC 4; HD 7**; hp 32; #AT 3; D 1-4/1-4 + paralysis and 2-8 + poison; MV (30) fly (60’);S ave F7; ML 10; AL C; for more details see Part 9, New Monsters). Anyone struck by the creature’s adamantine claws must save vs. Paralysis or be paralyzed for 2-8 turns; those bitten must save vs. Poison at -2 or die.  The death demon will promise anything if the party agrees to release it. All the party needs to do is break the magic circle by throwing dirt on it, covering it with a cloak or so on. If the death demon is freed it will immediately attack the party, as death demons have no sense of gratitude but only the insatiable desire to destroy. The magic circle prevents the death demon from attacking.  The horn on the wall, when blown, has the power to force any demon to return to its own plane of existence. It has only two charges remaining.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 28, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Here's some more on the death demon from Castle Amber.  This might shed some more insight...



Other than a more rounded description it looks like everything has already been covered. The text does indicate that the alignment is chaotic evil but given that it is demon...

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 29, 2007)

I thought that it seemed to indicate a higher intellect and a high Bluff skill.    

Addressing some other bits...

Although it is not a tanar'ri, and we are not therefore bound to the same resistances and immunities of the tanar'ri subtype, the SRD essentially makes the tanar'ri subtype the standard for DMs.



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Demon Traits
> Most demons possess the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
> 
> Immunity to electricity and poison.
> ...




Since these guys are "death demons", perhaps we could give them resistance/immunity to negative energy and/or death effects?


----------



## BOZ (Jun 29, 2007)

but does the whole "death" aspect have anything to do with them other than the name?


----------



## Shade (Jun 29, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> but does the whole "death" aspect have anything to do with them other than the name?




Not really.  Unfortunately, there is just about nothing to do with them other than their brief name and combat abilities.  It's almost like a blueprint for a creature.   :\ 

This is one that could've really been developed into something cool in the Fiendish Codex or Demonomicon.


----------



## Shade (Jul 5, 2007)

Any thoughts on the resistances and immunities?


----------



## Mortis (Jul 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Any thoughts on the resistances and immunities?



They should IMHO differ from the standard tanar'ri resistances/immunities.

I like the idea of resistance to negative energy and immunity to death effects.

Looking at their abilities how about immunity to paralysis and/or poison?

Resistance to acid, electricity, and fire 10?

I guess that's similar to tanar'ri resistances after all, but then again they all come from the same place 

What about Damage Reduction and Spell Resistance; should they have any?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 6, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> They should IMHO differ from the standard tanar'ri resistances/immunities.
> 
> I like the idea of resistance to negative energy and immunity to death effects.
> 
> ...




I like all that.  Anyone else?



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> What about Damage Reduction and Spell Resistance; should they have any?




I think at the very least they should have spell resistance 8 + CR (like other demons) and DR good and/or cold iron.


----------



## Shade (Jul 9, 2007)

Homebrews updated with latest suggestions.


----------



## Shade (Jul 10, 2007)

Any suggestions for filling in the "x"s?

Armor Class: x (–1 size, +2 Dex, +x natural), touch x, flat-footed x

(AC for similar HD and size demons range from around 18-23)

Attack: Claw +10 melee (xdx+4 plus paralysis)
Full Attack: 2 claws +10 melee (xdx+4 plus paralysis) and bite +5 melee (xdx+2 plus poison)

(Standard claw damage for Large creature is 1d6, bite is 1d8, some demons deviate, though)

Paralysis (Ex): Those hit by an ostego's claw attack must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for X. The save DC is Constitution-based. 

(The 7-HD uridezu has a paralysis attack that lasts 2d6 minutes)

Poison (Su): Bite—Injury, Fort DC 15, initial and secondary damage X. The save DC is Constitution-based. 

("Any creature bitten by a death demon must save vs. Poison at -2 or die."...this might have been where the "death" part of its name was derived)

Spell-Like Abilities: At will--greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only); x/day--deeper darkness. Caster level Xth.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 11, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Any suggestions for filling in the "x"s?
> 
> Armor Class: x (–1 size, +2 Dex, +x natural), touch x, flat-footed x
> 
> (AC for similar HD and size demons range from around 18-23)



Well BD&D AC 4 would equal 3e AC 15, but that's a little low. How about

Armor Class: 19 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +8 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 17



> Attack: Claw +10 melee (xdx+4 plus paralysis)
> Full Attack: 2 claws +10 melee (xdx+4 plus paralysis) and bite +5 melee (xdx+2 plus poison)
> 
> (Standard claw damage for Large creature is 1d6, bite is 1d8, some demons deviate, though)



I think standard demon damages will be fine.



> Paralysis (Ex): Those hit by an ostego's claw attack must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for X. The save DC is Constitution-based.
> 
> (The 7-HD uridezu has a paralysis attack that lasts 2d6 minutes)



2d6 minutes will work.

+2 racial bonus  to the save DC?



> Poison (Su): Bite—Injury, Fort DC 15, initial and secondary damage X. The save DC is Constitution-based.
> 
> ("Any creature bitten by a death demon must save vs. Poison at -2 or die."...this might have been where the "death" part of its name was derived)



Probably best represented by Con damage (or drain?). How about 1d6 Con damage for both primary and secondary effects. With an additional 1 point of Con drain on the primary?



> Spell-Like Abilities: At will--greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only); x/day--deeper darkness. Caster level Xth.



3/day? Caster level 10th?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 16, 2007)

Updated with all that.

Do we want to allow them to summon another of their kind?   If so, what percent chance for success?

Skills: Bluff 10, Concentration 10, Initimidate 10, Knowledge (the planes) 10, Listen 10, Move Silently 10, Spot 10?
Feats: Multiattack, Improved Sunder, Power Attack?

CR 7?  They are deadlier than the also 7HD CR 6 uridezu, but have several fewer HD than most of the CR 8 demons.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Do we want to allow them to summon another of their kind?   If so, what percent chance for success?



Why not - but not too high a chance, say 20%?

Skills: Bluff 10, Concentration 10, Initimidate 10,







> Knowledge (the planes) 10, Listen 10, Move Silently 10, Spot 10?
> Feats: Multiattack, Improved Sunder, Power Attack?



All look good.



> CR 7?  They are deadlier than the also 7HD CR 6 uridezu, but have several fewer HD than most of the CR 8 demons.



CR 7 looks good to me.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 17, 2007)

Standard treasure?

How's this?

Summon Demon (Sp): Once per day a death demon can attempt to summon another death demon with a 20% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Standard treasure?
> 
> How's this?
> 
> Summon Demon (Sp): Once per day a death demon can attempt to summon another death demon with a 20% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell.



Both fine with me.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 17, 2007)

Updated and added some flavor text.   Other suggestions are welcome, as these guys are basically a "blank slate" flavor-wise.

These guys are about a foot taller than osyluths, which would seem to have a similar body structure.  Since osyluths weigh 500 pounds, maybe 550-600 for death demons?


----------



## Mortis (Jul 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> as these guys are basically a "blank slate" flavor-wise.



That's one of the problems with the creatures developed for the 'simple' OD&D rules, especially monsters created before the Known World/Mystara was a 'concrete' setting. It does allow the individual DM to ttaylor the creatures to his own campaign though.

What you've written at least covers the bases.

Saying all that what it could with is a nice background by one of the Planescape fans - say Shemeska 



> These guys are about a foot taller than osyluths, which would seem to have a similar body structure.  Since osyluths weigh 500 pounds, maybe 550-600 for death demons?



Looks OK to me.

I would call it done and leave individual DMs to expand on the flavour text.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 19, 2007)

Determining LA:
+1 for fly speed
+2 for natural armor over +5
+1 for reach
+1 for unbalanced ability scroes
+1 for damage reduction
+1 for spell resistance
+1 for poison
+1 for at will SLA
+2 for resistance 10 to three energy types
-------------------------------------------
+11

A vrock is +8 and a hezrou +9, so I could see dropping this to the +8 to +9 range.

Damage reduction good *and * cold iron?   Or damage reduction good *or * cold iron?


----------



## Mortis (Jul 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Determining LA:
> +1 for fly speed
> +2 for natural armor over +5
> +1 for reach
> ...



I'd say +8 and DR good OR cold iron

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 20, 2007)

Good deal.   Does it look finished now?


----------



## Mortis (Jul 23, 2007)

Yep, next...

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Mortis (Sep 27, 2007)

I know we should wait for BOZ but I fancy converting the Kna or the Sollux next.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 1, 2007)

I'll check with the BOZ-man and see if he'd like us to "save" those for him.


----------



## Shade (Oct 1, 2007)

BOZ sends his blessings.   Feel free to post the original stats if you have 'em handy.

Otherwise, I'll dig 'em up when I have a chance.


----------



## Shade (Oct 2, 2007)

I had the chance.    

*Sollux*
Climate/Terrain:  Desert, mountain, subterranean
Frequency:  Very rare
Organization:  Solitary
Activity Cycle:  Any
Diet:  Omnivore
Int:  HIghly (13-14)
Treasure:  Z
Align:  Lawful neutral
# App:  1
AC:  0 (8)
Movement:  12
Hit Dice:  10-14
THAC0:  11 (10 HD), 10 (11 HD), 9 (12 HD), 8 (13 HD), 7 (14 HD)
# Att:  2 (5/2)
Dmg/Att:  By weapon +3
SA:  Weapon specialization, exceptional Strength
SD:  Immune to fire and illusions, saving throw bonus vs. magic
Magic Resistance:  Nil
Size:  M (7' tall)
Morale:  Champion (16)
XP Value:  3,000 (10 HD) + 1,000/HD

Sollux are tall, statuesque demihumans with crimson skin and bright yellow hair.  The irises of their eyes are brilliant white or intense blue; the "whites" of their eyes are glowing yellow, tinged with red.

Adults of both sexes are about 7 feet tall, or slightly taller, and weigh from 180 to 240 pounds.

Combat:  Adult sollux have Strength scores ranging from 18/01 to 18/50; they receive a +1 attack bonus and +3 damage bonus in combat.  Sollux are very dexterous and typically have Dexterity scores of 16 or higher.

Most sollux that adventurers meet are members of the Brotherhood of the Sun, a knightly order which seeks to confront and defeat efreet on the Prime Material Plane.  Its members are called Brothers of the Sun, or sun brothers, whether male or female.  Brothers of the Sun wear red-gold plate mail and carry large metal shields that glow with a continual light effect.  A Brothers of the Sun always carrys a variety of weapons, including a longsword, a spear, a dagger, a lasso, and a missile weapon--usually a short composite bow.  A sun brother's magical items, if he or she has any, are usually enchanted weapons or armor.  Most sun borthers are 10th- to 14th-level fighters, but the leader of the order is said to be a mighty warrior of 16th level who wields a longsword of efreeti slaying +3.  Every sun borther is a specialist in his or her favorite melee weapon, usually a longsword.

All sollux are immune to normal fire and to all types of illusions, and they can detect invisibility at will.  Sollux receive a +1 bonus to any saving throw vs. a magical attack and subract -1 point from any damage they suffer from such an attack, whether the saving throw succeeds or not.

Sollux tend to be even-tempered and somewhat friendly.  They prefer to negotiate when dealing with non-efreet and will make an orderly retreat if faced with poor odds.

When dealing with efreet, sollux always seek to slay them or drive them from the Prime Material Plane.  Since they cannot fly, sollux usualy try to create a situation where an efreeti will have to attack them.  Sollux usually do this by revealing an efreeti's deception (usually by virtue of the sollux's immunity to illusions) or by seizing the efreeti's treasure.  The sollux take their battles with the efreet very seriously and plan all their attacks upon them very carefully.

Habitat/Society:  Sages believe that sollux form communities and raise their children in magma-filled chambers deep underground.  Only those sollux who have proved themselves to be mighty warriors (usually by defeating an efreeti) are allowed to enter the Brotherhood of the Sun.  Individual sun brothers make thier homes in scorched deserts, the craters of active volcanoes, or anywhere else there is great heat.  However, they spend much of their time traveling the world, seeking out efreet and visiting other sollux.  In times of great need, individual sun brothers band together to defeat the efreet, but usually they rely on their own prowess or recruit whatever likely allies they discover on their travels.

Sollux are extremeley closed-mouthed about the origins of their feud with the efreet.

Ecology:  Sollux, although distantly related to efreet, are actually denizens of the Prime Material Plane.  They eat much the same foods as humans and demihumans, but they prefer anything they eat to be cooked and served boiling hot.

Source:  MC Mystara Appendix.


----------



## Shade (Oct 2, 2007)

And their stats from X2: Castle Amber...

Sun Brother
Armor Class: 0
Hit Dice: 10*- 14* 
Move: 120 (40) 
Attacks: 1 weapon 
Damage: 1-8 (+3) 
No. Appearing: 1 (1)
Save As: Fighter 10-14
Morale: 9 (12)
Treasure Type: Nil
Alignment: Lawful

Sun brothers are members of the Brotherhood of the Sun, mortal enemies of efreet. Sun brothers belong to a race of 7’ tall humanoids with crimson skin and bright yellow hair called Sollux, related to efreet but lawful in nature. The Brotherhood of the Sun is distinguished by wearing red-gold armor and carrying blazing sun shields (treat as a light spell). All Sollux are immune to dispel illusions and to detect invisible. They are unaffected by normal fire and magical fire attacks suffer -1 to hit and damage.

The sun brothers vary in hit dice from 10 to 14. They have a morale of 9 normally and a morale of 12 when fighting efreeti.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Oct 2, 2007)

Since these guys are related to efreet, native outsider might work for type.


----------



## Shade (Oct 2, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> Since these guys are related to efreet, native outsider might work for type.




Agreed.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 8, 2007)

Nice surprise after returning from holiday. (Does anyone actually look at these boards at home rather than work?).

I agree with the Outsider type.

Just visiting work today - had to show up in case some guy was still ill - he's not so I get the rest of the day off 

I'll have a proper look tomorrow

Regards
Mortis


----------



## freyar (Oct 8, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> (Does anyone actually look at these boards at home rather than work?).




Actually, I do.   I try to intersperse work with fun both places, actually.

So, a racial write-up and a separate blurb for the Brothers of the Sun?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 9, 2007)

Ok the lets start with the basics

Medium Outsider (Native)
Hit Dice: 10d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 30 ft. (20 ft. in full plate)
Armor Class: XX (+1 Dex, +8 armor, +3 shield, +x natural), touch XX, flat-footed XX
Base Attack/Grapple: +XX/+XX
Attack: 
Full Attack: 
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: 
Special Qualities: 
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str XX, Dex XX, Con XX, Int XX, Wis XX, Cha XX
Skills: 117/130 depending on Int (13-14)
Feats: 4

Environment: 
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: XX
Treasure: 
Alignment: Lawful neutral
Advancement: By character class (usually fighter?)
Level Adjustment: +XX

The 2nd version gives us clues for some of the abilities: Str 18 (01-50), Dex 16+ and Int 13-14.

For the other three how about Con 15-16, Wis 14-15, Cha 12-14?

platemail is equivalent to either half plate or full plate and the large metal shield is equivalent to a heavy steel shield. The shield has a _continual light_ effect so is obviously magical(?) and therefore will have at least a +1 magic bonus.

The flavour text also shows that most sollux prefer longswords for melee and a composite short bow for ranged attacks so I suggest we use those in the attack lines.



			
				X2 said:
			
		

> They are unaffected by normal fire and magical fire attacks suffer -1 to hit and damage.





			
				Mystara Appendix said:
			
		

> All sollux are immune to normal fire and to all types of illusions, and they can detect invisibility at will. Sollux receive a +1 bonus to any saving throw vs. a magical attack and subract -1 point from any damage they suffer from such an attack, whether the saving throw succeeds or not.



Just reading this extract from the Mystara Appendix it looks like the sollux get a bonus versus all magical attacks but if you also refer to X2 it only applies to magical fire attacks - which I assume is what was intended for the second edition version as well.

That said why don't we just make them immune to all fire - both magical and normal?

Feats: Improved Critical (longsword), Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (longsword)?

Weapon Specialization - bonus feat or special ability?

Immunity to Illusions - but not all mind affecting effects obviously.

Well that's enough to be going on with for now.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Oct 9, 2007)

Going by the Mystara Monstrous Compendium, Enviroment could be "Warm desert, mountains, and underground", and Standard for Treasure.

Should we give these guys the Fire subtype?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 9, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> Going by the Mystara Monstrous Compendium, Enviroment could be "Warm desert, mountains, and underground", and Standard for Treasure.



They both look fine to me.



> Should we give these guys the Fire subtype?



Probably, although it does make them vulnerable to cold. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 9, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> The 2nd version gives us clues for some of the abilities: Str 18 (01-50), Dex 16+ and Int 13-14.
> 
> For the other three how about Con 15-16, Wis 14-15, Cha 12-14?




Since it appears they were originally modeled after efreet, we can use them for inspiration on some of the stats.

Efreeti Abilities: Str 23, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 15, +6 natural armor

Downsizing from Large to Medium size...

Str 15, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 15, +4 natural armor

Per the 3E conversion guide, Str 01-50 equates to Str 19, so we can go with that.

So combining our thought processes, how about:

Str 19, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 15, +4 natural armor


----------



## Mortis (Oct 10, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> So combining our thought processes, how about:
> 
> Str 19, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 15, +4 natural armor



Looks good

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 10, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.

I'm torn on whether to give them Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat, or simply let the fighter levels they often take handle that.

Should Improved Initiative be a bonus feat, since efreet get it as a bonus feat?   Just a thought.

I downsized the efreet's slam attack, but if you don't think they should have one, I can drop it.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 10, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'm torn on whether to give them Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat, or simply let the fighter levels they often take handle that.



How about something along the lines of

Fighter's Training (Ex): Due to their indepth training in weapons and combat a sollux's racial hit dice count as fighter levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats. This does not, however, allow it to gain fighter bonus feats.

We can then give it Weapon Specialization as a feat and Improved Initiative as a bonus feat



> I downsized the efreet's slam attack, but if you don't think they should have one, I can drop it.



Personally I would prefer them not to have a slam attack but does everyone else think?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## freyar (Oct 10, 2007)

I'd say no slam, also.  These seem to be a pretty martial group, so I'd think most of their abilities are related to training.  Fighter's Training looks good, also.


----------



## Shade (Oct 10, 2007)

I renamed it "martial training" to avoid confusion with the fighter class, made the suggested feat adjustments, and dropped the slam attack.



> All sollux are immune to normal fire and to all types of illusions, and they can detect invisibility at will.




Simply immunity to illusions?

See Invisibility (Su): As the see invisibility spell, always active, caster level xth.



> Sollux receive a +1 bonus to any saving throw vs. a magical attack and subract -1 point from any damage they suffer from such an attack, whether the saving throw succeeds or not.




+1 racial bonus on saves vs. spells and spell-like effects?

Magic Resilience (Su):  Against any spell or spell-like ability that deals hit point damage, sollux reduce the damage per die by 1.



> Habitat/Society: Sages believe that sollux form communities and raise their children in magma-filled chambers deep underground. Only those sollux who have proved themselves to be mighty warriors (usually by defeating an efreeti) are allowed to enter the Brotherhood of the Sun. Individual sun brothers make thier homes in scorched deserts, the craters of active volcanoes, or anywhere else there is great heat. However, they spend much of their time traveling the world, seeking out efreet and visiting other sollux. In times of great need, individual sun brothers band together to defeat the efreet, but usually they rely on their own prowess or recruit whatever likely allies they discover on their travels.




Environment:  Any warm land or underground?
Organization:  Solitary, "efreet hunters" (x-x), or "community" (x-x)?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 11, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I renamed it "martial training" to avoid confusion with the fighter class, made the suggested feat adjustments, and dropped the slam attack.



All good

I'm glad that you went for the martial training idea. My backup plan was to point out that we are not converting a normal sollux but a Sun Brother - which would be a normal sollux (say 6 HD) with 4 levels of fighter and we now how much you (and number of the rest of us) like classed monsters 



> Simply immunity to illusions?



I'd say so.



> See Invisibility (Su): As the see invisibility spell, always active, caster level xth.



Caster level 10?



> +1 racial bonus on saves vs. spells and spell-like effects?
> 
> Magic Resilience (Su):  Against any spell or spell-like ability that deals hit point damage, sollux reduce the damage per die by 1.



Now this is where I'm confused (doesn't take much) the original entry from X2 only gives it this bonus versus magical fire attacks not all magical attacks. But the Mystara Appendix (and DMR2) give the bonus against all magical attacks. I feel that this was an error and the intention was to only the bonus versus magical fire - which is obviously a moot point now that we've given it immunity to all fire.

That said I don't mind giving it the bonus against all spells and spell-like effects. 



> Environment:  Any warm land or underground?



Looks good



> Organization:  Solitary, "efreet hunters" (x-x), or "community" (x-x)?



Perhaps community should be brotherhood? As we are talking about sun brothers not general sollux.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 11, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> All good
> 
> I'm glad that you went for the martial training idea. My backup plan was to point out that we are not converting a normal sollux but a Sun Brother - which would be a normal sollux (say 6 HD) with 4 levels of fighter and we now how much you (and number of the rest of us) like classed monsters




That occurred to me as well...do we want to scale them back a bit, allowing room for adding fighter levels to become Sun Brothers?



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Caster level 10?




Sounds appropriate.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Now this is where I'm confused (doesn't take much) the original entry from X2 only gives it this bonus versus magical fire attacks not all magical attacks. But the Mystara Appendix (and DMR2) give the bonus against all magical attacks. I feel that this was an error and the intention was to only the bonus versus magical fire - which is obviously a moot point now that we've given it immunity to all fire.
> 
> That said I don't mind giving it the bonus against all spells and spell-like effects.




You may be right...it may have been an error.   Since we've got the wiggle room, let's go for the bonus unless anyone objects.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Perhaps community should be brotherhood? As we are talking about sun brothers not general sollux.




Agreed that makes the most sense for Sun Brothers.

I'm torn on the whole sollux vs. Sun Brother issue...

On the one hand, it seems that only Sun Brothers were ever intended to be encountered, with the rest of the sollux mysteriously tucked away where no one would ever find them.

OTOH, it might be nice to have base sollux stats so if a DM wants to use this hidden community, they'll have the stats.

Thoughts?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 12, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> That occurred to me as well...do we want to scale them back a bit, allowing room for adding fighter levels to become Sun Brothers?



plus


> I'm torn on the whole sollux vs. Sun Brother issue...
> 
> On the one hand, it seems that only Sun Brothers were ever intended to be encountered, with the rest of the sollux mysteriously tucked away where no one would ever find them.
> 
> ...



So base stats = 6 HD (as I suggested above) this gives room for 4 fighters levels which qualifies them for Weapon Specialization and means we can remove Martial Training.

We could go even lower on racial HD which might even make them a playable race.



> You may be right...it may have been an error.   Since we've got the wiggle room, let's go for the bonus unless anyone objects.



I don't object - just wondering... 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 12, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> We could go even lower on racial HD which might even make them a playable race.






			
				MC Mystara Appendix said:
			
		

> Hit Dice: 10-14






			
				MC Mystara Appendix said:
			
		

> Most sun brothers are 10th- to 14th-level fighters, but the leader of the order is said to be a mighty warrior of 16th level who wields a longsword of efreeti slaying +3.




You know, it looks like they might actually have no racial HD, and simply be a playable race with 10-14 fighter levels on average.   Shall we just stat the typical sollux as a 10th-level fighter and go from there?

So essentially, here are the sollux racial traits...

Medium Outsider (Fire, Native)
Base speed 30 ft.
+8 Str, +6 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha (we could remove 2 points somewhere due to ability score increases gained at 4th and 8th level)
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire and illusions, see invisibility, vulnerability to cold 
Feats:  A sollux gains Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.
Favored Class:  Fighter
LA:  +X


----------



## Mortis (Oct 12, 2007)

MC Mystara Appendix said:
			
		

> Most sun brothers are 10th- to 14th-level fighters, but the leader of the order is said to be a mighty warrior of 16th level who wields a longsword of efreeti slaying +3.



I missed that bit   



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> You know, it looks like they might actually have no racial HD, and simply be a playable race with 10-14 fighter levels on average.   Shall we just stat the typical sollux as a 10th-level fighter and go from there?



Absolutely 

Although if we were Wotc I could see Sun Brother being a prestige class 



> +8 Str, +6 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha (we could remove 2 points somewhere due to ability score increases gained at 4th and 8th level)



Well as a creature with character class levels we can use the elite array which will change things slightly.

Lets have another look at the stats, at the moment we have 
Str 19, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 15

I suggest we reduce Dex and Int by 1 each to reflect the lowest levels the MC Mystara Appendix gives, and also drop Wis and Cha by 1 each which gives us

Str 19, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 14

the elite array could be arranged as
Str 15, Dex 10, Con 8, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 12

This gives a more 'realistic' range of modifiers
Str +4, Dex +6, Con +6, Int +0, Wis +4, Cha +2

Allowing for the increases at 4th and 8th we could reduce Con, Wis, or Cha by 2

Still with me.   



> Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire and illusions, see invisibility, vulnerability to cold



Agreed - that was straight forward.



> Feats: A sollux gains Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.



Plus 4 normal feats and 6 fighter bonus feats. 



> LA: +X



This will be interesting to see how playable the race will be - better than a drow? 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 12, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Still with me.




Yep.  In fact, you nailed it perfectly.    

I'd say take the 2 points off Wis or Con.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Plus 4 normal feats and 6 fighter bonus feats.




Those will be fun.    



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> This will be interesting to see how playable the race will be - better than a drow?




Doubtful, without the incredible spell resistance that makes drow so appealing.    


Updated Homebrews to reflect the adjustments.


----------



## Shade (Oct 12, 2007)

X2: Castle Amber said:
			
		

> The sun brothers vary in hit dice from 10 to 14. They have a morale of 9 normally and a morale of 12 when fighting efreeti.




Should we grant them a racial or morale bonus when fighting efreet?  Perhaps a bonus vs. Initmidate checks made by efreet?

Another idea:   If you don't want to grant them immunity to fire, we could borrow this:

Forged (Ex): An azerblood gains a +1 bonus on all saving throws against heat and fire spells and effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every five additional levels the azerblood attains.


----------



## freyar (Oct 12, 2007)

I like how this looks so far!  One of these days, I'm going to have to run a desert campaign.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Should we grant them a racial or morale bonus when fighting efreet?  Perhaps a bonus vs. Initmidate checks made by efreet?




I'd make it a morale bonus.  Probably +1 or +2 so the LA isn't too high.  Maybe the same bonus against Cha based checks made by efreet.



> Another idea:   If you don't want to grant them immunity to fire, we could borrow this:
> 
> Forged (Ex): An azerblood gains a +1 bonus on all saving throws against heat and fire spells and effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every five additional levels the azerblood attains.




Immunity to fire is a lot simpler but maybe more powerful than we want.  The thing is, fire subtype seems incredibly appropriate.  If we go with the Forged option, don't forget immunity to mundane fire.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 13, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> I like how this looks so far!  One of these days, I'm going to have to run a desert campaign.



Me too, maybe centered around the Lost City.



> I'd make it a morale bonus.  Probably +1 or +2 so the LA isn't too high.  Maybe the same bonus against Cha based checks made by efreet.



+2 morale bonus to attacks and saves, +2 racial bonus to skill checks regarding efreet?



> Immunity to fire is a lot simpler but maybe more powerful than we want.  The thing is, fire subtype seems incredibly appropriate.  If we go with the Forged option, don't forget immunity to mundane fire.



I'd go with the forged option, remember a number of them live in deserts and we know how cold deserts can get at night so cold vulnerability might be a bad idea.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Mortis (Oct 13, 2007)

On to equipment - a 10th level fighter is going to have some magical items.

At the moment we have given him mundane full plate, a +1 magical heavy steel shield (with a continual flame effect) and a longsword and composite short bow.

A 10th level NPC would normally have 16,000 gp worth of gear.

At the very least we can make the armour and weapons magical.

Suggestions?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Oct 13, 2007)

Outsider (fire or evil) bane for their swords?

These creatures would also make good rangers.


----------



## Shade (Oct 15, 2007)

OK, we'll drop the fire subtype and go with forged.

How about:   +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks against efreet.


How's this for equipment?

8,315 gp = +1 evil (or fire) outsider bane greatsword
4,170 gp = +2 heavy steel shield w/permanent continual flame
1,500 gp = full plate
2,282 gp = slaying arrow (evil outsiders or fire outsiders)
---------
16,267 gp


----------



## Mortis (Oct 15, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> How about:   +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks against efreet.



Sure



> How's this for equipment?
> 
> 8,315 gp = +1 evil (or fire) outsider bane greatsword
> 4,170 gp = +2 heavy steel shield w/permanent continual flame
> ...



Looks good but the greatsword should be a longsword. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 15, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Looks good but the greatsword should be a longsword.




Indeed.  I even priced it correctly for longsword.


----------



## freyar (Oct 15, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> How's this for equipment?
> 
> 8,315 gp = +1 evil (or fire) outsider bane greatsword
> 4,170 gp = +2 heavy steel shield w/permanent continual flame
> ...




Pretty good.  Does the pricing work ok if we shift some of the enchantment bonus from the shield to the full plate?


----------



## Shade (Oct 15, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Pretty good.  Does the pricing work ok if we shift some of the enchantment bonus from the shield to the full plate?




It nets us an extra 1,000 gp.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 16, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> It nets us an extra 1,000 gp.



Cloak of Resistance +1? 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 16, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Cloak of Resistance +1?




That'll work.    

Updated Homebrews.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 16, 2007)

Okey-dokey skills next?

52 skill points, max rank is 13 = 4 maxed skills.

Fighter skills are Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Ride, and Swim.

Should we give it some racial skills as well? Knowledge (the planes - well efreets), Spot, Survival?

And 6 more feats - do we stick to SRD or use some of the other fighter feats from PHB2?

Cleave, Combat Expertise,  Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack

Treasure: I think his gear will cover that 

CR: 11?

Organization: Solitary, cell (2-6), brotherhood (10-50)

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 16, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Okey-dokey skills next?
> 
> 52 skill points, max rank is 13 = 4 maxed skills.
> 
> ...




Yeah, I'd say Knowledge (the planes) at the very least.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> And 6 more feats - do we stick to SRD or use some of the other fighter feats from PHB2?




Stick to SRD.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Cleave, Combat Expertise,  Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack




Those look pretty good.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Treasure: I think his gear will cover that




Indeed.  Standard (see text)



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> CR: 11?




Technically, CR 10 since it has no racial Hit Dice.  However, we can borrow this from the drow:

Challenge Rating: Drow with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level. Drow with levels in PC classes have a CR equal to their character level +1.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Organization: Solitary, cell (2-6), brotherhood (10-50)




How about "crusade" rather than "cell".  It sounds more knightly, eh?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 16, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Stick to SRD.
> 
> Those look pretty good.



Good job they're all SRD



> Technically, CR 10 since it has no racial Hit Dice.  However, we can borrow this from the drow:



I thought that perhaps the special abilities were worth +1



> How about "crusade" rather than "cell".  It sounds more knightly, eh?



Yeah i was thinking more along the lines of a religious knightly order but there's no indication of that. IIRC somewhere I read that a group of knights was called a 'lance' but I may be imaging things - about to leave work so cannot check it out 

Regards


----------



## Shade (Oct 17, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.

Determining LA using Savage Species guidelines...

+1 for unbalanced ability scores
+1 for natural armor bonus
----------------------------
+2 total

This seems about right, since drow are +2.  The sollux's +4 natural armor and really good ability score adjustments balance out with the drow's spell resistance and spell-like abilities.

Things we still need to address:

Alignment:  Always (?) lawful neutral
Automatic Languages: Common, Ignan. Bonus Languages: ?.

Anything else?


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Oct 17, 2007)

Are you doing sollux as characters? If so, alignment probably shouldn't be "always".


----------



## Shade (Oct 17, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> Are you doing sollux as characters? If so, alignment probably shouldn't be "always".




Yes we are, so good point.

Usually or often LN, then?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 18, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Yes we are, so good point.
> 
> Usually or often LN, then?



You could argue that Sun Brothers are always LN (as part of the brotherhood) but sollux themselves are usually/often LN.

I've attached a picture of a Sollux/Sun Brother fighting an efreet.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I've attached a picture of a Sollux/Sun Brother fighting an efreet.




HE-MAN!


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.

We're nearly done.   Any thoughts on bonus languages?  Efreet speak Auran, Common, Ignan, and Infernal.   So maybe Auran, Celestial, and Infernal?


----------



## freyar (Oct 19, 2007)

Those languages sound spot-on to me.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 20, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Those languages sound spot-on to me.



I agree.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 22, 2007)

Updated.

Are we ready for the kna?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 22, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Are we ready for the kna?



Not quite, we still need skills. 

52 skill points, max rank is 13 = 4 maxed skills.

Fighter skills are Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Ride, and Swim.

Racial skill: Knowledge (the planes)

So max out Climb, Handle Animal, Knowledge (the planes) and Ride?

I can't see them needing swim 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## freyar (Oct 22, 2007)

Mortis's skills suggestions sound good to me.


----------



## Shade (Oct 22, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> So max out Climb, Handle Animal, Knowledge (the planes) and Ride?




Sounds good.  I updated Homebrews with these ranks, and added Know (planes) to racial skills of characters section.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> I can't see them needing swim




Not even through lava flows?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 23, 2007)

Onto the kna.

*Kna*
Climate/Terrain:	Any ocean
Frequency:	Common
Organization:	Tribe
Activity Cycle:	Any
Diet:	Omnivore
Intelligence:	Very (11-12)
Treasure:	P (A)
Alignment:	Neutral good (80%) or neutral evil (20%)
No. Appearing:	2d10
Armor Class:	5
Movement:	Sw 15
Hit Dice:	7
THACO:	15
No of Attacks:	1 or 3
Damage/Attack:	By weapon or 1d4 (claw)/1d4 (claw)/1d3 (bite)
Special Attacks:	Nil
Special Defenses:	Skin protects against fire, blunt weapons
Magic Resistance: 	Nil
Size:	L (10’-12’ tall)
Morale:	Elite (14)
XP Value:	975

A kna (pronounced NAH) is an aquatic humanoid well known for its strength. These creatures live exclusively in saltwater and cannot breathe air. They vary in occupation from peaceful traders to dangerous pirates.
Knas stand 10 to 12 feet tall and have very muscular builds. Prominent features include large fins on their backs and heads, clawed hands, and bulging eyes. Their orange skin looks scaly but has a rubbery texture. They speak Common and their own tongue and also can communicate in a special silent language.

*Combat: *Knas usually (70%) arm themselves with special bone spears made for underwater use. Some (30% of those armed) also wield light crossbows designed specifically for underwater combat. Unarmed knas attack with their claws and sharp teeth. All knas boast 120’ infravision.
Due to the knas’ rubbery skin, blunt weapons inflict only half damage on them. Their skin also gives them a +1 bonus to saving throws vs. normal fire.
Knas cannot breathe air. A kna taken out of the water suffocates in 2d4 rounds.

*Habitat/Society: *Knas live in tribes made up of several family groups (typically 2d4 families per tribe). Each family contains 4d4 adults and half as many noncombatant offspring. Kna children reach maturity in six months.
Like fish, knas reproduce by laying eggs. All females within a tribe share the same fertile period; autumn is the most common egg-laying season. A female kna lays an annual clutch of 3d6 eggs, 2d6 of which actually hatch. Two knas are appointed as the children’s full-time guardians for six months. During this time, the guardians teach the hatchlings everything they need to know to enter the adult world. If players encounter guardians with their charges, each guardian’s morale increases to Fearless (20) in combat situations.
Kna tribes dwell in shelters built into large barge-like platforms that float 20 to 30 feet above the sea bed. The knas construct these platforms from the light internal shells of giant squid and decorate them with bright shells and colored stones. Each tribe has its own distinctive decorative pattern.
Many knas live as peaceful traders, enjoying a prosperous relationship with other intelligent sea races as well as air breathers living along the shore. Sometimes trade between knas and humans is conducted by intermediates, such as sea elves, who feel at ease in both environments.
Unfortunately, some tribes that have seen their territories usurped by ships of surface dwellers resort to piracy. These tribes, called the uyagh in their own tongue, wreck surface ships on reefs, over come the crews, and plunder the cargo. Depending on the tribe’s temperament and the victim’s behavior, the uyagh might spare or slaughter a crew, (Expect the latter if the surface dwellers killed a kna while resisting.) Knas take no prisoners. Peaceful kna tribes, while disapproving of their pirate brethren, do not raise arms against them.
Besides their normal racial language, knas have developed a special system of hand gestures and body movements that allow them to speak silently, conveying simple concepts like “retreat,” “attack,”, “help,” and “friend.” Surface dwellers can learn this sign language using a nonweapon proficiency slot.
Knas tame sea creatures for use as watch animals and beasts of burden. Uyagh use larger sea creatures to help tow surface vessels onto reefs. A kna lair has a 60% chance of containing 2d6 domesticated sea creatures, especially hippocampi (15%), narwhals (25%), common whales (20%), dolphins (20%), and sea lions (20%).
Knas and koprus (see next page) are sworn enemies, as they compete for the same food supply and habitat. Their constant bickering keeps both races’ numbers down.

*Ecology: *Knas hunt many sea creatures that humans consider predators, reducing the population of sharks, manta rays, lampreys, and the like.
Unscrupilous alchemists have discovered how to use kna blood as an ingredient for potions of water breathing. These alchemists occasionally have been responsible for devastating raids ion communities of good and peaceful knas.

*Source: *MC Mystara Appendix.

Still need to check other sources.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## dhaga (Oct 23, 2007)

Large humanoids or monstrous humanoids.  Higher strength than usual for creatures their size.

DR 10/slashing or piercing
Fire Resist 5
Water Breathing (Exclusively)

Full Attack: Spear +x melee (x+x); or 2 claws +x melee (x+x) and bite +x melee (x+x)


----------



## Mortis (Oct 24, 2007)

Here's the version from DMR2 Creature Catalog

Kna
Armor Class:	5
Hit Dice:	7 (L) 
Move (swimming):	150' (50')
Attacks:	1 weapon
Damage:	By weapon+5
No. Appearing:	0 (2d10)
Save As:	Fighter: 7
Morale:	10
Treasure Type:	(V) A
Intelligence:	11
Alignment:	Neutral or Chaotic
XP Value:	450

Monster Type: Humanoid (Common).
Kna are tall (10 to 12 feet), strong, aquatic humanoids. They have orange, scaly skin, bulgy eyes, and large fins along their backs and heads. They generally arm themselves with short thrusting spears and with crossbows specially made for underwater use.
Kna capture and train mashers (see page 78) for use as beasts of burden. They remove the stingers from the huge, slow creatures and harness them to tow trains of as many as 10 large (up to 30-foot-long), semi-buoyant barge-like platforms which float 20 to 30 feet above the sea bed. These platforms are made from the light internal shells of giant squid and are gaily decorated with shells and colored stones.
Each family group within a tribe has its own masher and makes its home in shelters built on one or more of the platforms the masher pulls. The other platforms are used for freight, since the kna make their living as merchants and/or haulers, dealing both with undersea and terrestrial races. The kna are experts at packing goods so as to protect them from the effects of seawater.
Unfortunately not all kna are peaceful traders. Some tribes whose livings have been badly affected by the competition of surface ships have abandoned trading and have taken to piracy. Kna cannot breathe air, so their favorite tactic is to wreck ships, overcome the crew when they are in the water, and then collect the cargo when the vessel sinks. To sink a boat the kna harness a team of mashers to the vessel with chains. The mashers then tow the ship onto a reef or rocks where it is soon wrecked.
Terrain: Ocean.

And the character creation information from PC2 Sea People

Kna
The kna are the traders of the oceans, and they can be found anywhere there are creatures with something to trade. Since the dawn of time, the kna have traveled all over the oceans of the world. Most kna families are content to travel well-established routes, carrying goods that they know they can make a profit on. While not all kna are long-distance traders, news and information is passed freely among them making them reliable sources of information and news. Not all kna are traders, however. Some find trading not to their liking and seek action and adventure as adventurers or as soldiers and scouts in the army of Undersea. Their high Strength and large size makes them formidable opponents, and highly sought after as allies.
Certain kna families carry out a war against the ships of the Minrothad Guilds (see GAZ 9, The Minrothad Guilds). Many maintain a grudge against the Guilds for attacks carried out against kna trading parties. At least six kna families were exterminated by privateers operating out of Minrothad waters. Now these kna raiders attack Minrothad ships as often as they can. Because of their close ties to the Verdier Elves of the Minrothad Guilds, the Aquarendi are distrusted by the kna.
Out of the Water: Kna cannot breathe air, and have difficulty in staying out of the water for more than a minute. They have no legs so they tend to flop around on land. Speech out of water is impossible as a kna would keel over after only a couple of words. See "Underwater Adventuring" for rules on drowning.
Weapons: Kna prefer underwater crossbows and spears as weapons. The crossbows are made by the kna themselves to while away the hours during long sea crossings and are often sumptuously decorated. These weapons are very strong and fire with great force: treat as heavy crossbows which inflict 2d4 points of damage plus the user's damage bonus.

Kna

```
Experience
Title / Level	XP		HD
Fingerling	-48,000		2d8
Shrimp 		-46,000		3d8
Sprat		-42,000		4d8
Urchin		-36,000		5d8
Teenager	-24,000		6d8
(Normal Monster)		
0		0		7d8
1		48,000		8d8
2		140,000		9d8
3		330,000	
4		660,000		10d8
5		960,000	
6		1,260,000	11d8
7		1,560,000	
8		1,860,000	12d8
9		2,160,000	+ 2hp*
+ 1 Level for each extra + 300,000
* Constitution bonus no longer applies; + 2 hit points per level thereafter.
```
swimming	150' (50')
land	30' (10')
On land the kna require an air breathing spell or else they can only flop around and gasp for air.
Appearance: Kna are big and highly muscled. Even the fins running down the backs of their heads and bodies look like they've spent a lifetime pumping iron! Kna have small orange scales covering their bodies and fish-like tails. The fins are frequently of a different color—silver, gold, purple, electric blue, orange, and other bright colors. Their eyes are round and are brightly colored with blues, greens, and reds being common.
Average Size: 9' 10" + 2d12"
Physique:
	1-2	skinny
	3-4	normal
	5-6	fat
Common Names: Kna names are usually descriptive: Bigeye, Bluefin, Brightleg, Goldencrest, Goggleye, Gold-fin, Greatgill, Largefin, Motormouth, Purplemouth, Silvercrest, Strongarm, Yelloweye.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Mortis (Oct 24, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Large humanoids or monstrous humanoids.  Higher strength than usual for creatures their size.



I think monstrous humanoid fits better.



> DR 10/slashing or piercing
> Fire Resist 5
> Water Breathing (Exclusively)



They're all good - I seem to remember a 'water dependency' trait that we could 'borrow'



> Full Attack: Spear +x melee (x+x); or 2 claws +x melee (x+x) and bite +x melee (x+x)



Looks good

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 24, 2007)

These fellas look an awful lot like locathah, eh?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 24, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> These fellas look an awful lot like locathah, eh?



At first glance, perhaps, but they are twice as big and posess natural weapons whereas the locathah have none.

Still I suppose there are only so many designs for a fish-like humanoid.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2007)

Did you want these to be 7-HD monstrous humanoids, or lower-HD with class levels like the sollux?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 25, 2007)

belated double post


----------



## Mortis (Oct 25, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Did you want these to be 7-HD monstrous humanoids, or lower-HD with class levels like the sollux?



7 HD monstrous humanoids (aquatic)

For stats we are only given Int (11-12)

The kna is described as being very strong for its size. Now it is about the same size as a hill giant which has a Str of 25 so I suggest a Str of 27-28.

I don't see it as having anything other than average Dex so 10-11?

Con 15-16?
Wis 13
Cha well they make good traders which implies that they get on with people so 13-14?

All in all this gives us

Str 27-28, Dex 10-11, Con 15-16, Int 11-12, Wis 13, Cha 13-14

Do they seem reasonable, I'm tempted to up Con though.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 25, 2007)

Those stats seem reasonable, and I agree with upping the Con.

Maybe Str 27, Dex 11, Con 19, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 14?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 25, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Maybe Str 27, Dex 11, Con 19, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 14?



Looks good to me.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 25, 2007)

I'll fire up a Homebrews not that we have the key ingredients.


----------



## Shade (Oct 25, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.

Since AC 5 converts to AC 15, and since it has no Dex modifier and a -1 size modifier, shall we give it +6 natural armor?

For full attack, like so?

Spear +14 melee (2d6+12/x3) or 2 claws +14 melee (1d6+8) and bite +9 melee (1d8+4) or aquatic light crossbow +6 ranged (2d6/19-20)

Borrowing from Stormwrack...

Crossbow, Aquatic: This special version of a light crossbow is strung especially taut with thicker wire and reinforced so as not to snap under the increased tension. The aquatic crossbow is not subject to the normal -2 penalty on ranged attack rolls for every five feet of distance (see Ranged Attacks Underwater, DMG 93), and uses its normal range increment of 40 feet both in and out of the water. Aquatic crossbows are favored by aventi, merfolk, and tritons.


----------



## freyar (Oct 25, 2007)

Just out of curiosity, what's the CC policy on using closed content like _Stormwrack_?

Looks like you have this one well in hand.


----------



## Shade (Oct 25, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity, what's the CC policy on using closed content like _Stormwrack_?




We need to either adapt the material or go with a sidebar approach ("if you're using Stormwrack in your campaign...")


----------



## Mortis (Oct 26, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Since AC 5 converts to AC 15, and since it has no Dex modifier and a -1 size modifier, shall we give it +6 natural armor?



Absolutely. 



> Spear +14 melee (2d6+12/x3) or 2 claws +14 melee (1d6+8) and bite +9 melee (1d8+4) or aquatic light crossbow +6 ranged (2d6/19-20)



Amending slightly 

Spear +14*/+9* melee (2d6+12/x3) or 2 claws +14 melee (1d6+8) and bite +9 melee (1d8+4) or aquatic light crossbow +6*/+1?* ranged (2d6/19-20)



> Borrowing from Stormwrack...



Fits the bill nicely

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 26, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Amending slightly
> 
> Spear +14*/+9* melee (2d6+12/x3) or 2 claws +14 melee (1d6+8) and bite +9 melee (1d8+4) or aquatic light crossbow +6*/+1?* ranged (2d6/19-20)




Good catch.


----------



## Shade (Oct 26, 2007)

> Crossbow, Aquatic: This special version of a light crossbow is strung especially taut with thicker wire and reinforced so as not to snap under the increased tension. The aquatic crossbow is not subject to the normal -2 penalty on ranged attack rolls for every five feet of distance (see Ranged Attacks Underwater, DMG 93), and uses its normal range increment of 40 feet both in and out of the water. Aquatic crossbows are favored by aventi, merfolk, and tritons.




Since we can't use this in its entirety, how about this?

Aquatic Arbalester (Ex):  A kna uses a specially designed crossbow that is not subject to the normal -2 penalty on ranged attack rolls for every five feet of distance underwater.  Additionally, its range increment is unaffected in aquatic environs.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 26, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Aquatic Arbalester (Ex):  A kna uses a specially designed crossbow that is not subject to the normal -2 penalty on ranged attack rolls for every five feet of distance underwater.  Additionally, its range increment is unaffected in aquatic environs.



That works or we could call it a kna crossbow (or some such) and have as a racial weapon?

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Oct 26, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> That works or we could call it a kna crossbow (or some such) and have as a racial weapon?




Either name sounds fine to me, but I do prefer the racial weapon proficiency.


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## Shade (Oct 26, 2007)

Agreed.  That's a great idea!


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## Mortis (Oct 26, 2007)

DR 10/slashing or piercing
Fire Resistance 5

How does the following look, a bit verbose?

Water Dependancy (Ex): A kna can only breathe water and beings to drown when exposed to air. A kna can survive out of water by holding its breath for a short period as detailed below.

A kna can hold its breath for nearly 4 minutes (38 rounds). After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check every round in order to continue holding its breath. Each round, the DC increases by 1.  

When the kna finally fails its Constitution check, it begins to drown. In the first round, the kna falls unconscious (0 hp). In the following round, it drops to -1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, the kna drowns.

Skills: (20 points) Bluff, Sense Motive, Listen, Spot, Swim 4 ranks each?

Feats: Point blank shot, Weapon Focus (spear) and one of negotiator or persuasive?

CR: 4
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually neutral good
Advancement: 8-14 HD (Large), 15-21 (Huge) or by character class
Level Adjustment: +2

Is this enough to justify masterwork crossbows?


			
				Sea People said:
			
		

> The crossbows are made by the kna themselves to while away the hours during long sea crossings and are often sumptuously decorated. These weapons are very strong and fire with great force




Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 26, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> DR 10/slashing or piercing
> Fire Resistance 5




Both sound good.




			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> How does the following look, a bit verbose?
> 
> Water Dependancy (Ex): A kna can only breathe water and beings to drown when exposed to air. A kna can survive out of water by holding its breath for a short period as detailed below.
> 
> ...




Isn't this the standard?



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Aquatic Subtype: These creatures always have swim speeds and thus can move in water without making Swim checks. An aquatic creature can breathe underwater. *It cannot also breathe air unless it has the amphibious special quality*.






			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Skills: (20 points) Bluff, Sense Motive, Listen, Spot, Swim 4 ranks each?
> 
> Feats: Point blank shot, Weapon Focus (spear) and one of negotiator or persuasive?




All sound good.   Persuasive is Bluff and Intimidate while Negotiator is Diplomacy and Sense Motive.  Which is a better fit?



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> CR: 4
> Treasure: Standard
> Alignment: Usually neutral good
> Advancement: 8-14 HD (Large), 15-21 (Huge) or by character class




This all sounds about right.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Level Adjustment: +2




I'll have to give them the Savage Species treatment, but spot checking indicates at least +3 (+2 for damage reduction other than magic, +1 for unbalanced ability scores).



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Is this enough to justify masterwork crossbows?




I'd say so.


----------



## freyar (Oct 26, 2007)

Let's point people to the drowning rules in the DMG, as usual, also.


----------



## Shade (Oct 30, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.

Any thoughs on Negotiator vs. Persuasive?


----------



## freyar (Nov 1, 2007)

I'd go with Negotiator as a default but maybe note that the uyagh tribes often take Persuasive instead.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 5, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> I'd go with Negotiator as a default but maybe note that the uyagh tribes often take Persuasive instead.



Looks good

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 6, 2007)

Organization?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Organization?



Some ideas

Pirate band (2d10), Trading Caravan (2d10 + 50% noncombatants + X mashers - which means we''ll have to do the masher as well), Family (4d4 + 50% noncombatants), Tribe (10d10 + 50% noncombatants)

Regards
Mortis


----------



## freyar (Nov 6, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Some ideas
> 
> Pirate band (2d10), Trading Caravan (2d10 + 50% noncombatants + X mashers - which means we''ll have to do the masher as well), Family (4d4 + 50% noncombatants), Tribe (10d10 + 50% noncombatants)



Those look good.  By mashers, do you mean shark-like things?  There were mashers in one of the Dungeon Savage Tide adventures (Sea Wyvern's Wake) if we just want to refer people there.


----------



## Shade (Nov 6, 2007)

Yep, mashers were in Dungeon #141.   A personal quest of James Jacobs to rescue them from obscurity.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Yep, mashers were in Dungeon #141.   A personal quest of James Jacobs to rescue them from obscurity.



Oops forgot that, and I've been collecting the Savage Tide issuses especially as I intend to run it as my next campaign.   

Obviously with the addition of the kna and other Mystara specific aquatic races.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 7, 2007)

So how many mashers would you recommend?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> So how many mashers would you recommend?



Here's the relevant text


			
				DMR2 said:
			
		

> Each family group within a tribe has its own masher and makes its home in shelters built on one or more of the platforms the masher pulls.



So one per family, which gives us something like (also adding mashers to the other organisations)

Pirate band (2d10 + 2 mashers), Trading Caravan (2d10 + 50% noncombatants + 4 mashers - which means we''ll have to do the masher as well), Family (4d4 + 50% noncombatants + 1 masher), Tribe (10d10 + 50% noncombatants + 2d4 mashers)

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 7, 2007)

Should be give them a really slow land speed, just so they can walk on the bottom, etc.?   I've noticed most aquatic races, even merfolk, can move at least 5 ft. on land.

Kna as Characters

Kna characters possess the following racial traits.

A kna has the aquatic subtype. 
+16 Strength, +8 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, +4 Charisma.
Large size. –1 penalty to Armor Class, –1 penalty on attack rolls, –4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet.
A kna's base swim speed is 50 feet.
Darkvision 60 ft.
Racial Hit Dice: A kna begins with seven levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 7d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +7, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +2, Ref +5, and Will +5.
Racial Skills: A kna's monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 10 x (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Bluff, Diplomacy, Listen, Sense Motive , Spot, and Swim.
Racial Feats: A kna's monstrous humanoid levels give it three feats.
+6 natural armor bonus.
Special Qualities (see above): Damage reduction 10/slashing or piercing, resistance to fire 5
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A kna is automatically proficient with simple weapons, light and medium armor, and shields.
Automatic Languages: x. Bonus Languages: x.
Favored Class: x.
Level adjustment +x.


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2007)

> They speak Common and their own tongue and also can communicate in a special silent language.






> Besides their normal racial language, knas have developed a special system of hand gestures and body movements that allow them to speak silently, conveying simple concepts like “retreat,” “attack,”, “help,” and “friend.” Surface dwellers can learn this sign language using a nonweapon proficiency slot.




Automatic Languages:  Common, Kna, Kna Silentspeak. ?



> Knas tame sea creatures for use as watch animals and beasts of burden. Uyagh use larger sea creatures to help tow surface vessels onto reefs. A kna lair has a 60% chance of containing 2d6 domesticated sea creatures, especially hippocampi (15%), narwhals (25%), common whales (20%), dolphins (20%), and sea lions (20%).




Do we want to add any of these critters to the organization line?  Maybe just state "plus 2-12 domesticated sea creatures"?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Automatic Languages:  Common, Kna, Kna Silentspeak. ?



That's good - I was just going to call it Kna sign language 



> Maybe just state "plus 2-12 domesticated sea creatures"?



Might as well - just in the tribe entry?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2007)

Yeah, tribe only.

Updated in Homebrews.

Suggestions for Bonus Languages?

Favored class?

Land speed 10 ft.?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Suggestions for Bonus Languages?



Aquan and pretty much any language likely to be useful for trade (I could give you loads of Mystaran specific langauges but that's not the point) 



> Favored class?



Rogue - sort of fits for both pirate and merchant



> Land speed 10 ft.?



But only coz of what you pointed out in the preceding post 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 7, 2007)

Aquan, Elven (for sea elves), Giant (for sea giants and scrags), Sahuagin?

LA breakdown using Savage Species guidelines:
+2 for DR other than magic
+1 for unbalanced ability scores
+1 for reach
------------
+4 total

This puts them in line with many giants, so it's probably OK.   Thoughts?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Aquan, Elven (for sea elves), Giant (for sea giants and scrags), Sahuagin?



All fine



> LA breakdown using Savage Species guidelines:
> +2 for DR other than magic
> +1 for unbalanced ability scores
> +1 for reach
> ...



Looks reasonable

Done? (except flavour text)

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 7, 2007)

I think so.  I'll work on flavor text shortly.


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2007)

Added flavor text to Homebrews.

Once thing we may want to consider:  knas had 120’ infravision.  We could translate this into low-light vision, or increase their darkvision to 120 feet.  I think I prefer the low-light vision, as it makes more sense since they dwell in the lighter waters near the surface.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 9, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I think I prefer the low-light vision, as it makes more sense since they dwell in the lighter waters near the surface.



I completely agree 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2007)

Great!  I think all that's left is...

A kna stands 10 to 12 feet tall and weighs from X to X pounds.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 9, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Great!  I think all that's left is...
> 
> A kna stands 10 to 12 feet tall and weighs from X to X pounds.



1200 - 1500 pounds?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> 1200 - 1500 pounds?




That works for me.


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.

All done?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 9, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> All done?



Yup

Next...

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Mortis (Nov 16, 2007)

There seem to be a number of constructs on the conversion threads at the moment. Still one more cannot hurt. Here's the Mek from the Mystara Monstrous Appendix

MEK
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Ruins or any
FREQUENCY: Very rare
Organization: Solitary
Activity Cycle: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -4
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 11-16
THAC0:	11-12 Hit Dice: 9, 13-14 Hit Dice: 7, 15-16 Hit Dice: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 5d6+10 (fist)/ 5d6+10 (fist)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Paralyzing breath
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell immunity
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L or H (15’-25’ tall)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 11 HD 12,000, 12 HD 13,000, 13 HD 14,000, 14 HD 15,000, 15 HD 16,000, 16 HD 17,000

Meks (possibly a derivative of the word “mechanical”) are huge metallic creations, fabricated by a long-dead race of inhuman, insectlike sorcerers. Most meks resemble their creators, having barrel-like chests; and long, barbed, double-jointed arms and legs. However, meks resembling giants, lizards, and other creatures have been found, too.
Meks usually serve as guardians and only attack beings who intrude into the area they protect. However, characters might encounter one of the few wild meks that wander as marauders.
These unintelligent creatures do not communicate, but follow the simple, verbal orders their creators gave them long ago. Rumors state that on rare occasions, a powerful individual has learned how to usurp control of a mek – at least for a while.

*Combat: *Meks vary in power. To randomly determine the number of Hit Dice of a given specimen, roll 1d6 and add 10.
A melk responds to motion; it cannot see a creature that remains perfectly still. The best defense against a wandering mek is to remain stock still, out of its path, and wait for it to pass by. This requires a character to remain motionless for approximately 1d3+1 rounds, enough time for the mek to move out of range. In order to remain motionless, a character must make a Dexterity check each round.
Meks attack by striking with their heavy metallic limbs, inflicting 5d6+10 points of damage with each of their two mighty fists. So great is a blow from one of these monstrosities that a creature hit by both fists in one round must make a saving throw vs. paralysis. A failed saving throw means that the mek has knocked the victim off his feet, stunned for 1d4-1 rounds. If the saving throw succeeds, the victim still falls prone.
These creatures use their effective Strength of 22 to great effect by grabbing opponents with a successful attack roll, lifting them off the ground, and hurling them 1d6 x 10 feet away. Victims suffer 1d6 damage for every 10 feet thrown, plus the mek’s Strength bonus of +10 to damage.
Once each turn, a mek can exhale a cloud of paralysing gas. This cloud, a 10-foot-radius sphere centered around the creature, does not obscure vision and remains stationary if the mek moves away. Each creature within it must make a saving throw vs. breath weapon for each round spent inside; failure indicates the victim becomes paralysed for 1d3 turns. The gas dissipates in 2d4 rounds.
Meks are immune to most enchantments. Cold–based spells cause them no damage but have the effect of a _slow_ spell on them, and _disintegrate_ spells destroy meks that fail their saving throws. Poison and attacks directed at a creature’s mind have no effect on them.

*Habitat:* Meks wre created long ago to guard ancient insectoid wizards and their underground strongholds. (A few of these fortresses lie on the surface, in remote, desolate areas.) Meks encountered within ancient strongholds served a master at the time of their entombment. Most of the time (90%), the creature’s final order was to guard a particular chamber, item, or even an entire floor. In rare cases, its master ordered it to kill anyone who entered the stronghold.
Sometimes the elements expose a buried stronghold, and a mek manages to escape and wander the countryside, attacking most creatures it encounters and levelling any structure in its path. Such meks apparently had no master at the time they were sealed up in the stronghold. These masterless creatures, lacking in magical compulsions and safeguards, prove the most dangerous.
The secret of creating meks has been lost – for now.

*Ecology: *Except for the ruin the few wild, uncontrolled meks inflict on the landscape, most meks have no effect on their immediate environment. Some mages and sages speculate that a relationship exists between meks, iron golems, and _Apparatuses of Kwalish_.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Mortis (Nov 16, 2007)

A couple of things (for now)...

Although it specifically states, Strength as 22, it has a +10 bonus due to Str, which under 3.5 equates to a Str of 30. Due to its size I think that this larger value suits it better.

Breath weapon will be a cone under 3.5 rules.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 16, 2007)

After this one, I'm dying to tackle the elementals of law and chaos.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 16, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> After this one, I'm dying to tackle the elementals of law and chaos.



Good idea Shade

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Mortis (Nov 17, 2007)

Lets make a start.

Mek
Large Construct
Hit Dice: 11d10+30 (90 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: XX ft. (X squares)
Armor Class: 24 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +14 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 23
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+22
Attack: Slam +17 melee (5d6+10)
Full Attack: 2 slams +17 melee (5d6+10)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Breath weapon
Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction 10/adamantine, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to magic, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +3
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 12, Con --, Int --, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: --
Feats: --
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: XX
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 12-14 HD (Large), 15-16 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: --

Breath Weapon (Su): 10-foot cube, cloud of paralyzing gas lasting 2d4 rounds, free action once every 1d4+1 rounds; Creatures within a cone of paralyzing gas must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 15) or be paralyzed for 1d6 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based. 

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A mek is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.
A magical attack that deals cold damage slows a mek (as the _slow_ spell) for 3 rounds, with no saving throw.
A magical attack that deals fire damage breaks any slow effect on the mek and heals 1 point of damage for each 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the mek to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. For example, a mek hit by a fireball gains back 6 hit points if the damage total is 18 points. A mek gets no saving throw against fire effects.

A mek is affected normally by rust attacks, such as that of a rust monster or a _rusting grasp_ spell.

Does that look ok so far?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 19, 2007)

Lookin' good.

Speed translates to 30 ft.



> Meks attack by striking with their heavy metallic limbs, inflicting 5d6+10 points of damage with each of their two mighty fists. So great is a blow from one of these monstrosities that a creature hit by both fists in one round must make a saving throw vs. paralysis. A failed saving throw means that the mek has knocked the victim off his feet, stunned for 1d4-1 rounds. If the saving throw succeeds, the victim still falls prone.




Heavy Blows (Ex):  A creature struck by a mek's slam attack must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save (?) or be stunned for 1d4-1 rounds and fall prone in its space.  Even with a successful save, the victim must succeed on a DC X Balance check or fall prone in its space.  The save and check DCs are Strength-based.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Heavy Blows (Ex):  A creature struck by a mek's slam attack must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save (?) or be stunned for 1d4-1 rounds and fall prone in its space.  Even with a successful save, the victim must succeed on a DC X Balance check or fall prone in its space.  The save and check DCs are Strength-based.





> Meks attack by striking with their heavy metallic limbs, inflicting 5d6+10 points of damage with each of their two mighty fists. So great is a blow from one of these monstrosities that a *creature hit by both fists in one round* must make a saving throw vs. paralysis. A failed saving throw means that the mek has knocked the victim off his feet, stunned for 1d4-1 rounds. If the saving throw succeeds, the victim still falls prone.



Should we alter Heavy Blows to reflect that both slams have to hit (a little like a rake), if so we would have

Heavy Blows (Ex):  If a creature is struck by both of the mek's slam attacks in the same round it must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save (?) or be stunned for 1d4-1 rounds and fall prone in its space.  Even with a successful save, the victim must succeed on a DC X Balance check or fall prone in its space.  The save and check DCs are Strength-based.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 19, 2007)

Good catch.  The revision looks good.


----------



## Shade (Nov 19, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 19, 2007)

Looks good.

DCs for Heavy Blows are 25.

As its about two-thirds of an iron golem does CR 8 seem reasonable. Perhaps CR 9 would be better due to the Heavy Blows DCs?

Even though the text metioned that the secret of making a mek has been lost, we should still include a construction section.

Does 3,000 lbs seem reasonable for its weight?

Then its 'just' flavour text to go.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 19, 2007)

I'd say CR 10.   The clay golem also has 11 HD and is CR 10, and the mek has a higher damage output.   The clay's better DR, haste, and cursed wound probably help balance it out with the heavy blows and paralysis gas.

All the rest looks good.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 19, 2007)

Perhaps CR 10 would be fairer 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 19, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 19, 2007)

Just construction to do, and then its on the the elementals of law and chaos. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 19, 2007)

We can modify the iron golem's construction again...

An iron golem’s body is sculpted from 5,000 pounds of pure iron, smelted with rare tinctures and admixtures costing at least 10,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 20 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC 20 Craft (weaponsmithing) check.

CL 16th; Craft Construct, cloudkill, geas/quest, limited wish, caster must be at least 16th level; Price 150,000 gp; Cost 80,000 gp + 5,600 XP.

Replace cloudkill with ghoul touch (for paralysis) and sound burst (for stunning)?

Clay (at same CR) costs 40,000 gp.

Maybe require Knowledge history check in addition to the other smithing checks?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Replace cloudkill with ghoul touch (for paralysis) and sound burst (for stunning)?
> 
> Clay (at same CR) costs 40,000 gp.



Yes to all that



> Maybe require Knowledge history check in addition to the other smithing checks?



Not sure on this though, maybe a decipher script check to translate the insectile race's writings?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 19, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Not sure on this though, maybe a decipher script check to translate the insectile race's writings?




I like that.   DC 30?



> Check: You can decipher writing in an unfamiliar language or a message written in an incomplete or archaic form. The base DC is 20 for the simplest messages, 25 for standard texts, and *30 or higher for intricate, exotic, or very old writing*.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I like that.   DC 30?



Absolutely 

And another one done. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 20, 2007)

Wheeee!

From D&D Companions Set:

Hydrax*
Armor Class: 2
Hit Dice: 5** to 12**
Move: 60’ (20’)
Swimming: 180‘ (60‘)
Attacks: 2 claws or special
Damage: 1-10/1-10 or see below
No. Appearing: 1 (1)
Save As: Fighter, double level
Morale: 9
Treasure Type: Special
Alignment: Lawful
XP Value by Hit Dice: Variable

A hydrax is an intelligent crab-like creature made of ice. It is native to the Elemental Plane of Water, and almost never found on the Prime Plane. Although the hydrax are Lawful in behavior, most are evil.

A hydrax has 6 legs and 3 claws, equally positioned around a crab-like body. Hydrax are immune to normal weapons, all 1st and 2nd level spells, and to all attacks based on fire. A hydrax can detect invisible at will, and can cast detect magic, web, dispel magic, ice storm/wall, and water to ice 3 times per day (all as if a 9th level magic-user).

The hydrax use tools made of ice, and build cities and devices of all sorts. Their enemies are the undines and the kryst, and they fear air-type creatures and attacks.


From Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix:

The elementals of law are intelligent creatures native to one of the four elemental planes. Each dedicates itself to maintaining the forces of law on both its home plane and the Prime Material Plane, yet they differ wildly in their methods of achieving this goal.

All elementals of law are immune to poison, normal weapons, and 1st- and 2nd-level spells. They also can cast detect invisibility at will.

Hydrax
Climate/Terrain:  Any water
Freq:  Very rare
Org:  Solitary
Activity Cycle:  Any
Diet:  Ice
Int:  Very (12)
Treasure:  Nil
Alignment:  Lawful evil or lawful neutral
# App:  1
AC:  2
Movement:  6, Sw 18
HD:  5-12
THAC0:  5-6 HD: 15, 7-8 HD: 13; 9-10 HD: 11, 11-12 HD: 9
# Attacks: 2
Dmg/Att;  1d10/1d10 (claws)
SA:  Spells
SD:  See Below
MR:  Nil
Size:  L (8' wide)
Morale:  Elite (14)
XP Value:  varies

Hydraxes are native to the Elemental Plane of Water, and of the elementals of law, they seem the least likely to venture from their home plane. These large, crablike creatures of deep blue ice have 8-foot bodies with six legs and two claws.

Combat: In battle, the hydrax attacks with either its two icy claws (causing Id10 points of damage each) or with spells. It can cast detect magic, web, dispel magic, wall of ice, and transmute dust to water three times per day. Once per week it also may use reflecting pool at the level at which it casts the others-as a 9th-level spellcaster. Hydraxes are immune to all water-based attacks, but suffer maximum damage from fire-based attacks. 

Habitat/Society: Hydraxes are solitary creatures who, though lawful in behavior, tend to align with the forces of evil. They spend much of their time creating complex cities and devices of great beauty with tools made of ice. They seldom work together on such efforts, however. Each hydrax instead waits its turn to add to their strange group efforts.

Ecology: The most common enemies of the hydraxes are the undlnes and the erdeens; the crablike elementals fear earth-type creatures and earth attacks, pamcularly those of the erdeens.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 20, 2007)

We need too be careful here, the two versions contain contradicting text, for example - 



			
				Companions set said:
			
		

> Hydrax are immune <snip> and to all attacks based on fire.





			
				Monstrous Compendium said:
			
		

> Hydraxes are immune <snip> but suffer maximum damage from fire-based attacks.



 

This is obviously related to the way the Planes interacted with each other in the two rule sets. As is also shown below.

Although why they fear earth elementals (etc) but take max damage from fire effects is strange.



			
				Companion set said:
			
		

> and they fear air-type creatures and attacks.





			
				Monstrous Compendium said:
			
		

> the crablike elementals fear earth-type creatures and earth attacks




So, I assume that we use the rules for the standard 3.5e Elemental Planes for strength and weaknesses?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 20, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> So, I assume that we use the rules for the standard 3.5e Elemental Planes for strength and weaknesses?




I think that's probably the best approach.  Good catch!


----------



## Mortis (Nov 21, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Although why they fear earth elementals (etc) but take max damage from fire effects is strange.



Maybe what they really fear are magma based creatures - but now we're getting into para-elementals 

Enough of that! 

Where should we start? Creature size and type? 
Large Elemental (Cold, Extraplanar, Lawful, Water)?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 21, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Where should we start? Creature size and type?
> Large Elemental (Cold, Extraplanar, Lawful, Water)?




Looks good.

We've got our Int (12).   Here are some comparable Large elementals....

Ice Paraelemental, Large:  Str 14, Dex 21, Con 16, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 11
Water Elemental, Large:  Str 20, Dex 14, Con 19, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 11
Chraal: Str 21, Dex 11, Con 20, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 14
Immoth: Str 18, Dex 16, Con 19, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 21


----------



## Mortis (Nov 21, 2007)

So something like

Str 19, Dex 17, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 15

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 21, 2007)

Those should work.

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 21, 2007)

Saves (assuming no modifying feats etc) are
Fort +8, Ref +4, Will +2



			
				Monstrous Compendium said:
			
		

> detect magic, web, dispel magic, wall of ice, and transmute dust to water three times per day. Once per week it also may use reflecting pool at the level at which it casts the others-as a 9th-level spellcaster




So

Spell-like abilities (sp): 3/day—detect magic, web, dispel magic, wall of ice. Caster level 9th. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Transmute dust to water and reflecting pool will probably need their own write ups.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Nov 21, 2007)

Reflecting pool is covered by scrying:

Druid Focus: A natural pool of water.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 21, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> Reflecting pool is covered by scrying



I should have known that - thanks

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 21, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> Reflecting pool is covered by scrying:
> 
> Druid Focus: A natural pool of water.




Great!

So all we need is a transmute dust to water ability.



> All elementals of law are immune to poison, normal weapons, and 1st- and 2nd-level spells. They also can cast detect invisibility at will.




Immunity to poison is covered by the elemental subtype.  Immunity to normal weapons seems like it translates to the typical elemental DR x/-.  Detect invisibilty is easily covered by an ongoing see invisible effect.   The last part could be duplicated by something similar to lesser globe of invulnerability.  Alternatively, we could give them unbeatable spell resistance vs. 2nd level or lower spells.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 21, 2007)

Never mind Shade beat me to it. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 21, 2007)

Hee hee.  Scroll up a notch, Mortis.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 21, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Hee hee.  Scroll up a notch, Mortis.



Yup I noticed and was editing my previous post 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 21, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Yup I noticed and was editing my previous post




Indeed.  Thoughts on the spell immunity bit?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 21, 2007)

I suggest that we go with the globe of invulnerability idea. If we give is a good SR vs upto 2nd level it will affect other levels as well.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 21, 2007)

Looking at lesser globe of invulnerability, most of the text isn't relevant since the hydrax's invulnerability is personal, rather than a sphere.  How's this?

Minor Spell Invulnerability (Ex):  A hydrax is immune to all spell effects of 2nd level or lower.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 21, 2007)

Perfect. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 21, 2007)

For transmute dust to water, we can look to these for inspiration...

Transmute Mud to Rock (PHB)
Transmutation [Earth]
Level: Drd 5, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: Up to two 10-ft. cubes/level (S)
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No

This spell transforms normal mud or quicksand of any depth into soft stone (sandstone or a similar mineral) permanently.

Any creature in the mud is allowed a Reflex save to escape before the area is hardened to stone. 

Transmute mud to rock counters and dispels transmute rock to mud.

Transmute Rock to Mud (PHB)
Transmutation
Level: Drd 5, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: Up to two 10-ft. cubes/level (S)
Duration: Permanent; see text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No

This spell turns natural, uncut or unworked rock of any sort into an equal volume of mud. Magical stone is not affected by the spell. The depth of the mud created cannot exceed 10 feet. A creature unable to levitate, fly, or otherwise free itself from the mud sinks until hip- or chest-deep, reducing its speed to 5 feet and causing a –2 penalty on attack rolls and AC. Brush thrown atop the mud can support creatures able to climb on top of it. Creatures large enough to walk on the bottom can wade through the area at a speed of 5 feet.

If transmute rock to mud is cast upon the ceiling of a cavern or tunnel, the mud falls to the floor and spreads out in a pool at a depth of 5 feet. The falling mud and the ensuing cave-in deal 8d6 points of bludgeoning damage to anyone caught directly beneath the area, or half damage to those who succeed on Reflex saves.

Castles and large stone buildings are generally immune to the effect of the spell, since transmute rock to mud can’t affect worked stone and doesn’t reach deep enough to undermine such buildings’ foundations. However, small buildings or structures often rest upon foundations shallow enough to be damaged or even partially toppled by this spell.

The mud remains until a successful dispel magic or transmute mud to rock spell restores its substance—but not necessarily its form. Evaporation turns the mud to normal dirt over a period of days. The exact time depends on exposure to the sun, wind, and normal drainage.


----------



## Shade (Nov 27, 2007)

How about...

Transmute Dust to Water (Sp):  Three times per day, a hydrax can transform up to 18 ten-foot cubes of normal dust (or similar matter) into water permanently.  Any creature caught in the area is allowed a DC X Reflex save to escape before the area is transformed into water.  Caster level 9th.

I think we should also add freezing sphere 3/day to its SLAs based on this:



			
				Companion Set said:
			
		

> and water to ice 3 times per day (all as if a 9th level magic-user).


----------



## Mortis (Nov 27, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> How about...
> 
> Transmute Dust to Water (Sp):  Three times per day, a hydrax can transform up to 18 ten-foot cubes of normal dust (or similar matter) into water permanently.  Any creature caught in the area is allowed a DC X Reflex save to escape before the area is transformed into water.  Caster level 9th.



Looks good



> I think we should also add freezing sphere 3/day to its SLAs based on this:



Agreed.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 27, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.



> Habitat/Society: Hydraxes are solitary creatures who, though lawful in behavior, tend to align with the forces of evil. They spend much of their time creating complex cities and devices of great beauty with tools made of ice. They seldom work together on such efforts, however. Each hydrax instead waits its turn to add to their strange group efforts.




Max ranks in Craft (sculpting)?  If so, that leaves 12 ranks.  Suggestions?

Feats?  It gets two.  Ice paraelementals have Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse.   Water elementals have Alertness, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack.

Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: x
Advancement: x (should we follow the standard up to twice HD at same size, up to thrice HD at one size larger, or follow progressions more similar to elementals?)

Any languages other than Aquan?   Maybe Infernal?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 27, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Feats?  It gets two.  Ice paraelementals have Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse.   Water elementals have Alertness, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack.



Two completely different sets there one set all about mobility the other about power. We could be boring and merge the two - Combat Reflexes and Power Attack?



> Advancement: x (should we follow the standard up to twice HD at same size, up to thrice HD at one size larger, or follow progressions more similar to elementals?)



Not really sure - probably standard progression.



> Any languages other than Aquan?   Maybe Infernal?



What do Ice paraelementals get?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Two completely different sets there one set all about mobility the other about power. We could be boring and merge the two - Combat Reflexes and Power Attack?




Not bad.  



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> What do Ice paraelementals get?




Aquan and Auran.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 29, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Aquan and Auran.



I'd go for those then plus Infernal.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 29, 2007)

Max ranks in Craft (sculpting)? If so, that leaves 12 ranks. Suggestions?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 30, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Max ranks in Craft (sculpting)? If so, that leaves 12 ranks. Suggestions?





			
				Homebrew said:
			
		

> Hit Dice: 5d8
> ...
> Skills: 24 (Swim +8 from swim speed)



Max rank = 8, so it should have 16 left, not 12?
So, 8 ranks into each of Listen, and Spot?
Unless you want to put the 'missing' 4 ranks into Swim, and possibly 6 ranks into Listen and Spot.

<edit> and of course the 8 ranks in Craft. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2007)

You're right about 16, and I like the Listen 6, Spot 6, Swim 4.

Updated Homebrews.

I went with an Advancement that allows them to keep pace with standard elementals.

I believe that all that is left is CR and weight.  Thoughts?


----------



## freyar (Nov 30, 2007)

Weight should be a bit heavier than a human, so 200-300lb for average, I guess.  CR maybe 3 or 4?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 30, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I believe that all that is left is CR and weight.  Thoughts?



CR: 3
Weight: 450 lbs (a cubic metre of ice is just over 900 lbs)

<edit> beaten to the punch by Freyar 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2007)

Hmmm...I'm thinking at least CR 4.

Freezing sphere at caster level 9th deals 9d6 damage to an area.  It can do this 3/day.  Compare to the damage output of an air elemental's whirlwind or a storm elemental's thunder and lightning, and it's much higher.

CR 5?

An 8-foot ice paraelemental weighs 260 lb., so I think freyar's spot-on with the high end of his range.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 30, 2007)

Its not as robust though as a CR 5 air elemental.
CR 4?

I agree though on weight.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2007)

Heh.  OK, we'll call it a high 4.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 3, 2007)

I think we're done.

Do you want to alternate the elementals of law with those of chaos or do all the elementals of law first?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 3, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Do you want to alternate the elementals of law with those of chaos or do all the elementals of law first?




No problem either way.  Got one you'd like next?


----------



## Mortis (Dec 3, 2007)

How about the Kryst?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 3, 2007)

Sounds good.

I'll get 'em going once we finish up some of the other lingering critters.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 3, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'll get 'em going once we finish up some of the other lingering critters.



and posted them? 

<edit> Although I'd leave the Hydrax and post all the elementals of law and chaos in one batch.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 3, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> and posted them?




All in good time.  I'd like to give the Living Greyhawk contributions a few days in the spotlight before bumping 'em off with the next batch.    



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> <edit> Although I'd leave the Hydrax and post all the elementals of law and chaos in one batch.




Agreed.   One nice benefit of stockpiling completed conversions, eh?


----------



## Shade (Dec 4, 2007)

Elemental of Law, Kryst

From D&D Companion Set:

*Kryst*
Armor Class: 2
Hit Dice: 9*
Move: 240’ (80’)
Attacks: 3 spikes
No. Appearing: 1-6 (10-1,000)
Save As: Elf: 9
Morale: 9
Treasure Type: Special
Alignment: Lawful
XP Value: 1,600

The kryst are intelligent beings made of crystalline rock. They are native to the Elemental
Plane of Earth.

A kryst looks like a group of 12 golden crystal spikes, all projecting outward from a central
point. It is immune to poison, normal weapons, all 1st and 2nd level spells, and to all attacks based on air. A kryst can detect invisible at will, and can use detect magic, dispel magic, haste, or air to earth 3 times per day (all as if cast by a 9th level magic-user).  The kryst communicate by telepathy (120’ range) or, if mental contact causes poor reactions, by written messages.

A kryst can attack by ramming opponents with its spikes, and can attack up to 3 times per round.

The kryst have a widespread and complex society in their own realms, peacefully living with and helping the earth elementals. They welcome visitors, and are eager to gain new knowledge of all types. They fear and wage a never-ending war against the hordes, and
seek to unite all other creatures against them.  The kryst are also enemies of the hydrax,
though they rarely encounter them. They fear water-type creatures and attacks.


From Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix:

*Kryst*
Climate/Terrain:  Any earth
Freq:  Very rare
Org:  Cluster
Activity Cycle:  Any
Diet:  Earth, rock
Int:  Average (10)
Treasure:  Nil
Alignment:  Lawful good
# App:  1d6
Armor Class: 2
Movement: 24
Hit Dice: 9
THAC0: 11
# Attacks: 3
Dmg/Att:  1d12 (spike)/1d12 (spike)/1d12 (spike)
SA:  Spells
SD:  See below
MR:  Nil
Size: M (6' across)
Morale: Elite (14)
XP Value: 6,000

Krysts, intelligent beings native to the Elemental Plane of Earth, have bodies made of quarzlike rock; each kryst looks like a group of 12 golden, crystal spikes, all projecting outward from a central point.

A kryst normally speaks via telepathy (120-foot range).  If mental contact causes a poor reaction, it accommodates others by switching to written communication. (It etches messages with one of its spikes.)

Combat:  Although a kryst never enters a battle without first determining it has no better option, it fights fiercely once committed.  These elementals normally attack by ramming opponents with their long spikes.  A kryst can attack in this manner up to three times per round, causing 1d12 points of damage with each successful hit.

Krysts are immune to all earth-based attacks and can use detect magic, dispel magic, wall of stone, and transmute rock to mud each three times per day.  In addition, krysts can cast stone tell once per day.  They cast all spells at 9th level.  Krysts remain very vulnerable to air-based attacks, suffering double damage from them.

Habitat/Society:  Krysts have a widespread and complex society in their own realms, peacefully living with and helping earth elementals. They welcome visitors, and eagerly seek new knowledge of all types. 

Ecology:  These elementals fear and hate the hordes, with whom they wage a never-ending war.  They are also enemies of the hydrax, although they rarely encounter them.  All krysts fear air-based creatures and air-based attacks, although they view no group of these beings as their particular enemies.


----------



## Shade (Dec 5, 2007)

Here are the stats of similarly-sized earth creatures:

Medium Earth Elemental: Str 21, Dex 8, Con 17, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11
Galeb Duhr: Str 13, Dex 5, Con 20, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 12
Stone Spike: Str 18, Dex 8, Con 19, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11
Average Xorn: Str 17, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10


----------



## Mortis (Dec 6, 2007)

Large Elemental (Earth, Extraplanar, Good, Lawful)?

Str 20, Dex 8, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 13?

Assuming those, let's do the basic stats

Elemental of Law, Kryst
Large Elemental (Earth, Extraplanar, Good, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 9d8+20 (76 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: X (-1 size, -1 Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+15
Attack: Spike +10 melee (1d8+5?)
Full Attack: 3 spikes +10 melee (1d8+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: darkvision 60 ft., elemental traits
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +2, Will +3
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 8, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 13
Skills: 24 
Feats: 4
Environment: Elemental Plane of Earth
Organization: clump/growth/outcrop? (1-6)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: X
Alignment: Always lawful
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: X

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 6, 2007)

Should we drop the Good subtype and make them "always lawful, usually good" to reinforce their Law bent?

Shouldn't they be Medium (6 feet across)?


----------



## Mortis (Dec 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Should we drop the Good subtype and make them "always lawful, usually good" to reinforce their Law bent?



Yeah



> Shouldn't they be Medium (6 feet across)?



Oops that's something I should have changed when cutting n pasting.   

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 6, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.



			
				Companion Set said:
			
		

> A kryst can detect invisible at will, and can use detect magic, dispel magic, haste, or air to earth 3 times per day (all as if cast by a 9th level magic-user).






			
				Mystara MC said:
			
		

> Krysts are immune to all earth-based attacks and can use detect magic, dispel magic, wall of stone, and transmute rock to mud each three times per day. In addition, krysts can cast stone tell once per day. They cast all spells at 9th level. Krysts remain very vulnerable to air-based attacks, suffering double damage from them.




Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day—detect magic, dispel magic, haste, transmute rock to mud (DC x), wall of stone (DC x); 1/day--stone tell. Caster level 9th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Air to earth?   Maybe modify rock to mud, etc. again?



			
				Companion Set said:
			
		

> It is immune to poison, normal weapons, all 1st and 2nd level spells, and to all attacks based on air.






			
				Mystara MC said:
			
		

> Krysts are immune to all earth-based attacks and...remain very vulnerable to air-based attacks, suffering double damage from them.




Immunity to spells and effects with earth descriptor?

Vulnerability (+50% damage) to effects with the air descriptor?


----------



## freyar (Dec 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day—detect magic, dispel magic, haste, transmute rock to mud (DC x), wall of stone (DC x); 1/day--stone tell. Caster level 9th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.




Also, see invisibility would be good, since the first description gives them that at will.


----------



## Shade (Dec 6, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Also, see invisibility would be good, since the first description gives them that at will.




I gave 'em the same ability as the hydrax:

See Invisibility (Ex): An elemental of law can constantly see invisible creatures as if under the effects of a see invisibility spell.


----------



## freyar (Dec 6, 2007)

Ooopsie, should've looked at the homebrews entry!


----------



## Mortis (Dec 7, 2007)

Companion Set said:
			
		

> It is *immune* to poison, normal weapons, all 1st and 2nd level spells, *and to all attacks based on air*.






			
				Mystara MC said:
			
		

> Krysts are *immune to all earth-based attacks* and...remain *very vulnerable to air-based attacks*, suffering double damage from them.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Immunity to spells and effects with earth descriptor?
> 
> Vulnerability (+50% damage) to effects with the air descriptor?



Again the contradiction between editions 

So we go for whatever is 3.5e standard again?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 7, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Again the contradiction between editions
> 
> So we go for whatever is 3.5e standard again?




Probably.  Earth opposes Air.


----------



## Shade (Dec 7, 2007)

Skills: 24
Diplomacy, Knowledge skills?

Feats: 4
Earth elemental feats:  Alertness, Awesome Blow, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Power Attack

Since these fellas are more pacifistic at most times, maybe Negotiator?


----------



## Shade (Dec 11, 2007)

How about...

Diplomacy 6, Knowledge (the planes) 8, Sense Motive 6, Spot 4

Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Negotiator, Power Attack


----------



## Mortis (Dec 11, 2007)

Looks good to me.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 11, 2007)

Challenge Rating: x

Treasure: None?

Advancement: 10-18 HD (Medium); 19-27 HD (Large)?

A typical kryst is 6 feet in diameter and weighs around x pounds.


----------



## freyar (Dec 12, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Challenge Rating: x
> 
> Treasure: None?
> 
> ...




CR 7-8?

I guess no treasure is ok, though they have communities.  Maybe 50% gems or something?

Advancement looks good.

Hmmm.  6ft of crystals?  1000lb?  Medium earth elementals are 750lb, so maybe that's a good value.


----------



## Shade (Dec 12, 2007)

Since it only has 1 HD more than a Medium earth elemental, and only a few slightly combat-altering powers, maybe CR 6?

I agree with all the rest.

Updated Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Dec 12, 2007)

Sounds good and looks done!


----------



## Mortis (Dec 13, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Sounds good and looks done!



It does indeed 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

Thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 posts.

See continuation here.


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