# Bardic Countersong -- Free Action or, useless?



## two (Apr 12, 2003)

You know, the countersong deal:

"Any creature within 30 feet of the bard (including the bard) who is affected by a sonic or language-dependent magical attack may use the bard's Perform check result in place of his saving throw..."

Is this a free action, a la inspire courage (before the recent Errata)?  How would it ever be of use if it were a standard action, as the new Errata comments on the Bard imply?

Scenario 1:
DM:  You hear a terrible wailing, and 4 banshees swoop down on you...
Bard:  I countersong.
DM:  You do so on your initiative.  Too bad it's 5 and they go on 6.

Scenario 2:
DM:  You see a creepy crawly plug-ugly, and it attacks.
Bard:  I whack it with my sword.
DM:  Ok you hit.  On the CCPU's turn, it casts suggestion on you.
Bard:  I countersong (vs language dependent magical attack).
DM:  You already attacked.
Bard:  But I didn't know a sonic attack was coming up, and thus didn't countersong before I had a reason to.
DM:  Sucks to be you, eh?

So is countersong only useful if the player metagames, knows the monster in advance, knows there is a sonic attack coming, gets initiative, and then does it?

Makes for a pretty lame ability, and its use in a successful way pretty lame gaming.

How do people play this ability?  Free action or standard action?


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## SamuraiY (Apr 12, 2003)

I think its the same sort of thing as the counterspell via casting the same spell. It's only useful if it does the same thing over and over again and you have to ready an action to do it.


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## Crothian (Apr 12, 2003)

Ya, it's as useful as counterspelling.  REady an action and watch the DM do something else.


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## niteshade6 (Apr 13, 2003)

I don't have my books here, but doesn't it specificaly say that it is a free action in the same way as inspire courage? Of course you still have to do it on your turn, so you still die to the 4 banshees that beat you on initiative. But if you beat them on initiative, your all set, and can attack as well as countersong.

I don't see why metagaming is required. Either you suspect a sonic attack or you don't. It's only metagaming if you have info your character doesn't. 

It's not the greatest ability in the world, but at least it is essentialy a free one as long as you are attacking. There's a good chance you can play your bard for the entire campaign without ever using it, but you never know. It could be a lifesaver if you run into a situation like those 4 banshees. It can even block the spells of those wizards who energy substitute all their spells into sonic (although it only lets you make your save there so your party still takes half and even then you have to know he uses sonic fireballs). The main trick is to remember you have it. Alot of bards get so used to it being not useful that they don't remember to use it in the rare cases it is.


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## two (Apr 13, 2003)

*trouble is*

No, it does not specifically say it's a free action, nor not a free action.  Same with inspire courage -- is it a free action?  Or standard?  Well, you know how the bard abilities were written -- quickly, and without much editing.

If they did specify these things, mucho bandwidth savo.


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## Merlion (Apr 13, 2003)

Hopefuly this will be clarified in the revision but it must be assumed that it works via readied action...otherwise it would be basicaly useless.


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## niteshade6 (Apr 13, 2003)

Your right, it doesn't say it's a free action. But it is definetely clear that you can sing while taking other actions such an engaging in combat. It might be easiest to just say it's not an action at all, just something you can do while taking other actions.

Either way, everything else I said still holds true. You still have to do it on your turn, and it's still something you can essentialy do for free, since you can take other actions as well.


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## The Spectrum Rider (Apr 13, 2003)

IMC, the Good Guys recently ran into a bunch of harpies.  As soon as the saw the things, the bard started countersinging.  Since the harpies where still outside the range distance of their song ability, the countersong was in effect before the harpies' song could affect the characters.

In this case, it's because you can see further than you can hear (in the relevant senses of the words).

And, beleive me, the bard's Performance check was a lot higher than the characters' typical Will save!

The Spectrum Rider


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## Dr_Rictus (Apr 13, 2003)

It seems as if some folks may be missing the big distinction between countersong and counterspelling.  Countersong is not instantaneous, but can be maintained for up to 10 rounds.  The reason you don't have to ready an action for it to be useful is that you can start singing at the beginning of any encounter with sonic-using monsters, and thereafter maintaining the song is not an action.  

It's true that this doesn't help against attacks that your foes get off before you can act, but you wouldn't be able to ready an action in those situations anyway.  The key issue is therefore not winning initiative (though of course that's important), but recognizing (or guessing) that the foe you're faced with _has_ a sonic attack in the first place.

It's a _defense_ you can raise against sonic attacks, not a response to them.  And as pointed out, due to the progression of skills vs. saving throws, its a very effective defense.


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## two (Apr 13, 2003)

*Again,*

a defense implies knowledge of an attack.

It's good once you have heard the first attack and survived.  Soemtimes you don't survive.

Yes it's very effective when it works.  It's not effective if, for example, the character, in character, doesn't know about various monsters and their sonic attack percentile likelihood.  There isn't even a monster knowledge skill.  Bardic knowledge vs. every new monster to check if the Bard has heard of the monster using some sort of sonic attack?

Might be not too lame, and possibly make sense to boot.


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## niteshade6 (Apr 14, 2003)

Well there are some creatures like harpies which are well known enough that you probably know in advance to expect some kind of sonic effect. Other times you just learn from experience. For example in a module in a living campaign I played (it's now retired so I won't be spoiling anything for anyone) there was an orc with a horn that had  about 15 charges of sound burst who was using it from a position we couldn't easily get to (due in part to massive amounts of other orcs). Having the bards counter song made this encounter much easier once we realized to expect a sound burst every round. The damage was still pretty obnoxious, but the fact that the bard song made us immune to the stun part is what saved our entire party.

Most of the time when you get hit with a sonic effect, your bard will be busy inspiring courage or doing something else besides countersong. But every once in awhile it can be quite useful.


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