# [SPOILERS] Angel Episode 1/28/2004: "Damage"



## Henry (Jan 28, 2004)

This is a starting point for a new thread for Tonight's "Angel" episode, earmarked early for spoilers. I have nothing to say yet, not having seen it, but since I've never gotten the chance to start an Angel Thread, I figured there's a first time for everything. 

My thoughts on the ep. tomorrow.


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## LightPhoenix (Jan 28, 2004)

Bah, bastards, all of you!  MIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINE!!!  

Seriously though, here's what I hope to see in tonight's episode (and into February).

Team Angel hauling Eve's skanky skinny bum back there and tearing her a new one.  Alright, until now it's all been circumstantial but this was flat out proof she's evil.  Plus she never sang for Lorne that I remember.  What happened to the "no exceptions on evil" policy?

Spike getting over himself, telling "Doyle" off, and doing what's right because it's right.  It's the point Spike keeps missing, and the reason Angel is the chosen one and not him.  Angel did good deeds because he was a good person, Spike just does it for his own gain.

On a similar note, Angel needs to snap out of his idiocy and realize everything I just said.

The teams needs to start repairing the gaps between them.  Although I don't expect that to happen until Cordy returns and slaps them all back to sense.  Look for that in February, is my guess.  Yay sweeps!  Yes, that was sarcasm (and if you're a mod and reading this, this is where the eye-rolling smiley would be perfect, and yet not offensive).

More long term...

The actresses that play Eve and Fred seriously need to take a page from Harmony and EAT.  Seriously, the actress that plays Harm is sooooo much hotter than either of them, and it's because she doesn't look like a stick.  Charisma Carpenter was hot too, for much the same reasons.  Of course, that's just my opinion.

While I don't like Connor one bit, Eve needs to tap his as an emergency resource, should things start to go south for her.  I wouldn't mind seeing an epic battle between him and Team Angel, with him dying in the end, of course.

Finally, this is very long term, but they _seriously_ need another female in the cast.  Fred is just not that great.  I'm sure Amy Acker is doing the best she can with the role, but it's just not enough.  Fred is just a weak character, and I don't think even the inclusion of a stronger female character on the show would help fix it.  

Her multiple "romances" are going nowhere, the growth into a strong woman that was hinted at last season has disappeared (and would be _completely_ unrealistic now), and she doesn't have the charisma to be the group matron like Cordelia was (and they _keep_ trying to shove it off on her).  It's as if the character just kind of floats there going nowhere, much like Gunn did through the third and fourth seasons.  

Now, they managed to inject a little life into Gunn, and they need to do the same for Fred.  But what I would _rather_ see is her and Lorne relegated to secondary characters much like Harmony is this season.  That leaves a core group of Angel, Wesley, Gunn, and Spike.  Bring in a stronger female character that can hold her own with characters as strong as they are.  Unfortunately this would _probably_ have to be a new character, but there's not much you can do about that.  Personally I liked Gwen, but the special effects would be too expensive, I think.


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## Vocenoctum (Jan 29, 2004)

"He's alive Frodo, he's alive!"


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## nHammer (Jan 29, 2004)

"Yoda only knows..."


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## Nightfall (Jan 29, 2004)

Yeah that was a good line...


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## Jeremy (Jan 29, 2004)

That rocked.

There are so many things I loved about that episode.

Chief among which is using some of the tools they've had that they just left lying around.  That so rocked.


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## LightPhoenix (Jan 29, 2004)

All I can say is bleh.

On the one hand, it's a Spike-centric eppy partnered with stuff from _Buffy_ (I presume).  Bleh.  Bad enough we've already had _two_ Spike-centric episodes when we haven't seen a good ensemble episode in a while.  Bad enough the episode pulled most of its plot from _Buffy_ (again, presumably, correct me if I'm wrong).

On the other hand, it's just, as my gf put it, "I think that wins the award for most retarded and pointless episode ever".  The story was just terrible, the "twists" were telegraphed a mile away, and the idiot guy was just unfunny and too over the top.

Which reminds me, I'm glad they finally gave us Idiot Guy's name at forty-three minutes into the episode!  I don't care if he was from _Buffy_ or not, that's just poor writing.  At least they summarized the Slayer-mythos for us and how she could be a Slayer if Buffy survived.

Bottom line, I _hate_ it when episodes of _Angel_ deal with stuff from _Buffy_ in such a predominating way.  Little asides, maybe one conversation, fine, that's cool.  But not a whole episode.  However, even if all the _Buffy_ stuff was cut out, and it didn't focus on Spike, it was _still_ a terrible episode.

Definitely a big disappointment.


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## Jeremy (Jan 29, 2004)

Gotta stink when your show is full of in-jokes from another show I guess.    Sorry LP.  Fun stuff if you knew what was going on.


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## uv23 (Jan 29, 2004)

I enjoyed the episode. Its best moment was definitely the ending, very somber and dramatic. My favorite episode of the season however was last week's. David Boreanz did a fine job portraying the slump of team Angel into darkness, particularly Wesley and Gunn,


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## Nightfall (Jan 29, 2004)

Dunno I cracked a rib almost when Angel said to Lorne "Lorne get those psychics working on finding this guy. Crack the whip if you have to." And Lorne goes "Right! [Insert guy's name]! Whip!" and CCCRRAACCCK! I love that.  

But hey there's 100th episode and our favorite self-centered one returns.


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## CrusaderX (Jan 29, 2004)

Great episode, but I didn't like the pycho-slayer getting away with literal murder.  She hacks up innocent people and just gets to walk?  Ugh.  Insane or not, terrible childhood or not, her victims definitely deserved justice.

Now, the slayers may dish out some of there own justice on psycho Dana.  But I really didn't get that feeling from Andrew at the end.  Which makes me believe that the labeling of Angel and crew as the bad guys is just a _lil'_ bit hypocritical of Buffy and her grrrl squad.


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## Jeremy (Jan 29, 2004)

Which is more fun if you ask me.    Super straight Buffy isn't as interested as Buffy that's seen hell and makes a few big picture decisions that don't jibe on the small scope.

Perhaps the reason so many were sent to retrieve her was because something is up that we don't have the skinny on.  Good or bad, maybe they need her for something or maybe they need to stop her or something.


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## LightPhoenix (Jan 29, 2004)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> Gotta stink when your show is full of in-jokes from another show I guess.  Sorry LP. Fun stuff if you knew what was going on.



True, though I will admit Andrew taking the girl away at the end was cool.

However, it wasn't just the fact that it was full of in-jokes from another show (though that didn't help), it was because the episode was just _bad_.

For one, her not killing Spike was _extremely_ contrived, especially once she started hallucinating about him having tortured her.  Now, I'm no psych expert but I have taken a few classes, and her being psycho combined with her need for re-empowerment suggests to me (read: IMO) that she would have just dusted him and been done with it.  Same thing with Idiot Guy, why didn't she just kill him?  She certainly had Spike on the ropes, no reason a kick or two to the head wouldn't have snapped his neck like a twig.

For another, the story was just boring and by the books.  A homicidal maniac goes loose, we need to capture her alive.  This is like the stock story for filler _Angel_ episodes.  I've seriously seen this premise two or three times every season.  It wasn't even all that menacing, because it was _obvious_ no one important was going to be hurt.

Not to mention the complete marginalization of the rest of the cast.  Last I checked, _Angel_ was an ensemble show.  A few shots of them talking around a desk doesn't cut it.  Not to mention the fact that Spike has already gotten a show of his own this season.  I can't even _remember_ the last time Gunn was featured in an episode.

The ending was complete cheese.  Oh look, as if we didn't get the picture that Team Angel has lost their moral compass, let's hammer it in some more!  And next week too!  We've been covering this for a couple episodes now, it's time for there to be some resolution of their revelation.

And Idiot Guy - _completely_ over the top, over-acted, and just plain not funny.  His double-cross was pretty telegraphed, and the speech was just plain corny, like something _I_ would have written.  I expect better from professional writers.  And just to cap it off, another "we committed evil, we were bad, boo-hoo" conversation between Angel and Spike.  

But really, I don't really think this episode did anything that the last couple of episodes haven't.  I'm talking in terms of advancing the story, of course.

And don't even get me _started_ on how rediculous them just letting Eve go is.

No, it was just a terribly written episode.


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## Vocenoctum (Jan 29, 2004)

uv23 said:
			
		

> I enjoyed the episode. Its best moment was definitely the ending, very somber and dramatic. My favorite episode of the season however was last week's. David Boreanz did a fine job portraying the slump of team Angel into darkness, particularly Wesley and Gunn,




I wanted the guy that tortured her to have turned out to be the doctor, ah well. 

My problem with the ending is that it seems pretty heavy handed lately, pushing the corruption angle a bit heavy.
Why wouldn't Buffy trust Angel exactly?


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## Vocenoctum (Jan 29, 2004)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> And Idiot Guy - _completely_ over the top, over-acted, and just plain not funny.  His double-cross was pretty telegraphed, and the speech was just plain corny, like something _I_ would have written.  I expect better from professional writers.  And just to cap it off, another "we committed evil, we were bad, boo-hoo" conversation between Angel and Spike.



having seen teh buffy eps with him, Idiot Guy was very funny. If you hadn't seen such, then I can see it being just irritating.
I still don't understand why he didn't do the work himself if he had all those slayers, but then I hate the "mass imbueing" as Buffy realized it.
OTOH, I think this "we commited evil" speech actually was better than most of the rest they've had, and didn't mind it at all. 



> But really, I don't really think this episode did anything that the last couple of episodes haven't.  I'm talking in terms of advancing the story, of course.



I really wish SPike had mentioned "Doyle". They just seem to conveniently drop him when he's not important to teh show, but then later on he'll suddenly be important again. blah! 



> And don't even get me _started_ on how rediculous them just letting Eve go is.




I can see them not capturing her or anything, after all, they have no proof...
But, they don't seem to be investigating her either. And why the heck haven't they contacted the Senior Partners or something of the sort?


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## AuroraGyps (Jan 29, 2004)

That was SUCH a good episode!  Dana was creepy & crazy... she really weirded me out, but I felt sorry for her at the same time.  The Spike stuff was really good and the end was... the best word I can find is deep.  I enjoyed it alot.  Although, and I understand Angel & gang wanting to use all their fancy toys, I really don't understand why they wasted the time by moving in AFTER they got all the info and not having Angel "follow his nose", like Spike, while everyone else did research.  



> Great episode, but I didn't like the pycho-slayer getting away with literal murder. She hacks up innocent people and just gets to walk? Ugh. Insane or not, terrible childhood or not, her victims definitely deserved justice.




Well, she wouldn't stand trial any way because of her mental status.  She'd just be put in a place for the criminally insane.  I think the slayers and watchers are more equipt to deal with her.


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## myrdden (Jan 29, 2004)

This episode was so-so for me.  I definitely liked the re-appearance of Andrew in his new role as pseudo-watcher and I thought the show started out strong, but the ending was lack-luster for me.  I think that it would have been a better story if it really had been Spike torturing the girl in the past.  It would have brought his past back to haunt him in the present; something Angel has been living with for many years now, while Spike pretty much as brushed off.  I thought for sure that Spike's comment of "letting the past go" to Angel was going to come back at him this episode.



			
				Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> My problem with the ending is that it seems pretty heavy handed lately, pushing the corruption angle a bit heavy.
> Why wouldn't Buffy trust Angel exactly?




That was my thought too...on both counts.  Afterall he did deliver the amulet to Buffy that ultimately saved the world.  And they really haven't been in contact with one another, so how would Buffy and the gang know what's up with Team Angel?



			
				LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Not to mention the complete marginalization of the rest of the cast. Last I checked, Angel was an ensemble show. A few shots of them talking around a desk doesn't cut it. Not to mention the fact that Spike has already gotten a show of his own this season. I can't even remember the last time Gunn was featured in an episode.




This is what I feared would happen with Spike being moved over to this show.  Neither Gunn nor Wesley have been used in a very meaningful way this season.  And I really don't like the legal upload plot hook with Gunn - it's getting a bit too much and way too convenient (i.e. contrived).

Myrdden


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## Nightfall (Jan 29, 2004)

I still think it's pretty hypocritical as some one said. Yeah psycho slayer kills innocents and what, joins her slayer pals? Come on. I mean even FAITH got to spend some time in jail.  Some times just doesn't make sense. That being said I felt this was still a decent episode.


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## AuroraGyps (Jan 29, 2004)

> It would have brought his past back to haunt him in
> the present;




But his past did come back to haunt him.  Dana remembers him attacking/killing the chinese slayer and Robin Wood's mother Nikki.  I mean, I doubt Spike ever left any of the people he tortured alive, so he's never had to face, I mean REALLY face, what he's done in the past (Principal Wood doesn't count in my book... he wanted revenge, but he wasn't visibly damaged like Dana was).  Plus, the fact that Dana would confuse Spike with the man that tortured her  makes the Spike with a soul horrified I bet.


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## Nightfall (Jan 29, 2004)

Well it certainly gave him perspective I think.


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## Hand of Evil (Jan 29, 2004)

_I am now 85% more manly than_...

Why do I see affection from Spike to Andrew, does Spike see himself as he once was?  Is that why the Andrew and Spike duel work so well?  

I don't know, unless something happens soon Angel is going to be cancelled and and the Spike show will be born!


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## dravot (Jan 29, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> I still think it's pretty hypocritical as some one said. Yeah psycho slayer kills innocents and what, joins her slayer pals? Come on. I mean even FAITH got to spend some time in jail.  Some times just doesn't make sense. That being said I felt this was still a decent episode.



You make it sound like she's gonna go out clubbing with the rest of the Slayers.  I seriously doubt that that's the case here.  If they can, they'll bring her around with healing magic, if not, they'll put her someplace where she can be cared for properly.


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## Kahuna Burger (Jan 29, 2004)

dravot said:
			
		

> You make it sound like she's gonna go out clubbing with the rest of the Slayers.  I seriously doubt that that's the case here.  If they can, they'll bring her around with healing magic, if not, they'll put her someplace where she can be cared for properly.



I had the same thought... She is not "getting away" with anything any more than she would be with team angel. the major differences are that a) while W&H have containment facilities there's no reason to believe they have any resources dedicated to rehabilitation, which the slayers/watchers would, b) there's always the chance the psycho slayer would get 'studied' when the big boss wasn't keeping a direct eye on her, and most importantly, c) She IS a slayer. She is their family. I was shocked that angel fought as much as he did against Andrew taking her in the first place, when it seemed like a total no brainer. This isn't even the old watcher council we're talking about, this is rebirth with Giles likely in charge. Except for some territorial flexing, what was angel's problem?

_"I have twelve vampire slayers here and none of them have dated you."_ HEE!



			
				myrden said:
			
		

> I think that it would have been a better story if it really had been Spike torturing the girl in the past. It would have brought his past back to haunt him in the present; something Angel has been living with for many years now, while Spike pretty much as brushed off. I thought for sure that Spike's comment of "letting the past go" to Angel was going to come back at him this episode.




the problem with that plot is that it wouldn't fit in with the characters of angel and spike as long established. Spike was a killer. He killed to eat, and he enjoyed the chase, and he loved a good fight. He killed two slayers and he was proud because it meant he was amoung the biggest and baddest of vamps. But he wasn't a monster the way angel was. He never did anything like angel did to drusilla, He never came close to what was done to that girl. They made it crystal clear at the conversation at the end where he said that he had never really thought about evil, or the effect on his victims. And angel said that he thought of nothing else. Spike could be calous and cocky about death, but he didn't revel in the pain or fear of his victims. hell, angel had victims, spike had prey and losers in his fights. Spike can let go, it seems from what they've shown, because everything he did was very straightforward and impersonal. Angel can't because his evil took on a definitively personal nature and he remembers the enjoyment of things that aren't just evil, but sickening. Its harder to just say "I was a predator, I had no soul, I did what it seemed my right and my place to do" when at the time you considered yourself an artist taking pride in the destruction of minds and souls in addition to a good meal.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the same introspection, imagination and 'depth' that makes angel brood and remember and atone is what made him, as a monster, do so much more to atone for. You can't except Spike to behave the same way or judge him less moral for a different reaction when his expereince as a vampire was so different.

I anticipated but still loved it when Spike expressed admiration at andrew's 'doublecross'. I knew spike would think more about what it meant for andrew to pull it off than the 'political' implications.

ohh... what is up with vampires bleeding, being effected by injected drugs and other stuff I'd think you'd need a beating heart and working circulatory system to accomplish? ok, nitpick, but the whole drug thing distracted me mightly from the show at that point... I know spike has gotten drunk before, so there's precendent for drugs working, but it still struck a off chord for me.

Kahuna Burger


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## Pielorinho (Jan 29, 2004)

I liked it more than the last two episodes, definitely. I still want more ensemble cast, but Andrew was fun, and watching River freak out at people with her scary powers (did I say River?  I mean Dana) was cool.

Early on we did find out Andrew's name.  Or did you not notice that his lunch bag had his name on it along with the Union Jack? 

He really did get the best lines.

I only have one question from the episode, and it's been bothering me no end.

"In a mellifluous manner.  Seven letters, ending in 'y.'"

??????y

Daniel


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## zyzzyr (Jan 29, 2004)

Spike could not have come on the show and just been one of the ensemble.  Come on, two vampires with souls -- and they hate each other?  They're both dealing with it differently?  *Especially* when the entire premise of the show began with "there's this vampire with a soul, see, and he feels real bad about what he's done ..."

I thought last night's episode was quite good.  

I am not surprised at all that Buffy et. al. no longer trust Angel.  It's not necessarily that they think he's evil, but he clearly works for an evil corporation (the "zero tolerance" policy is only about evil on personal time).  They're doing some good, and less evil, but still have lots of evil clients.  And Buffy doesn't know if Angel is being manipulated, or that the Sr. partners might step in and take the Slayer away.  I mean, really, would *you* want Wolfram and Hart, even under new management, to get their hands on a psychotic slayer?

Spike's storyline is "set up" for the rest of the year now.  He's now "thinking about the nature of evil", which means he'll probably also "think about the nature of good".  Spike will finally be doing good deeds for their own sake, which is a *huge* change in the character.  It also fits in well with a certain someone's plans.

So since he's set up now for the rest of the season, I expect the show will go back to ensemble pieces for the next little while.  

The biggest surprise to me this season is that I think Fred interacts with Spike and Harmony better than any of the other cast members.  I thought the Fred/Harmony bit in "In Harm's Way" was excellent.  And clearly there's at least some sort of interesting spark between Fred and Spike.

Wesley had a bit, though, with his father.  Lorne had a bit with his sleep being removed.  Fred and Gunn are the two that are farthest out.

I think it's actually interesting that they avoid following the ensemble for a while.  They can use this to their advantage by suddenly showing Wes & Gunn making *very* questionable decisions.  Angel, having had his mind on other things, would probably be surprised as he didn't know how far his team has slid.

The biggest questions remaining to me are: 

1) which one of the team will slip too far? (Personally I'd rather see Gunn go too far -- but not because of the upload, because of choice.  More interesting, but probably least likely).

2) Will the Angel'd Wolfram & Hart come into conflict with the new Slayer posse and find themselves on opposite sides?

3) Why does Lindsay want to confuse the Sr. partners as to who fulfills Shansu?

LightPhoenix:

Andrew's name was mentioned at the very beginning -- when Spike came in and said "Andrew!"  He also had his name written on his lunch bag (along with the British flag)

I wouldn't say that a real crazy person would have offed Spike right away -- I don't think you can expect predictability from someone who is insane.  It's just as believable that she wanted the guy to suffer first, and then off him.


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## Hand of Evil (Jan 29, 2004)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> I only have one question from the episode, and it's been bothering me no end.
> 
> "In a mellifluous manner.  Seven letters, ending in 'y.'"
> 
> ...




I thought it was "In a nefarious manner"  Answer: Sorcery


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## Ao the Overkitty (Jan 29, 2004)

Kahuna Burger did a good job of explaining the difference between Angel and Spike.  Spike likes the fight, the kill.  Torture just isn't his thing (unless you consider his taunting of Angel torture).  Angel, on the other hand, relished in it.  Back in second season season Buffy, we saw first hand how much he liked torture when he was extracting info from Giles.  It seemed fairly obvious to me the first time they showed Spike carrying the little girl that she was transferring.

As for Spike and Andrew, I agree that i think he sees more then a bit of William the Bloody in him.  Andrew certainly looked a lot like him with the new hair and suit when he turned around in his chair in the conferance room. Sides, I've always enjoyed the Spike-Andrew moments.

I do, however, kinda pity any Slayer that gets Andrew as a Watcher/trainer.  Though, even a reformed Faith would probably be worse.  I felt it was kinda neat to find out where the rest of the Sunnydale gang was.

Overall, I liked this episode SOOOOO much better then the last two.  No cringe moments (due to embarisment badness), to which the last two had several.


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## Henry (Jan 29, 2004)

I'll weigh in and say VERY good episode. Not the best ever, but it was very solid, and offered much to think about.


Spike and Angel: many people have been wondering about why Angel still feels tortured and Spike's sorta "over it" with getting his soul, and this last five minutes of Angel and Spike talking really emphasize it: Angel had a LOT invested in his victims, where Spike did not. I thought this interaction was quite cool. The line that sticks with me was:
_"She's a monster now, herself."
"Spike, she's an innocent victim."
"So were we, once upon a time."_

Anyone catch what Angel said back after that?

How far the group has slid. As I said once before last year, the group is going to face someone on what they THOUGHT was the same side of the Fence - I just had no idea it would be Buffy's Slayers!  If Angel was pensive before, he's got to be reeling inside at the thought that Buffy no longer trusts him at all.

Dana's torture of Spike - I don't think it was contrived - she was living out a fantasy where she had the power, not to kill, but to make her tormentor live out the things he did to her - but in reversed roles. The drugging and "you'll never touch me again" gives us a very painful picture of drugging and abuse that is too sick to write out here. Killing him would have been FAR too quick for the months of hell still replaying itself daily in her mind.

Andrew made me laugh all the way through. Mainly because I was familiar with him from the Buffy episodes, but his evolution is great to see. I REALLY hope they keep him around in guest appearances, because he's got a road of salvation to walk, himself - just not as dramatic as Angel's or Spike's.

I was almost to the point of tears (of laughter, that is) looking at James Marster's face as Andrew is doing his whole Gandalf/Frodo spiel. The mix of "bloody hell" embarrassment, agitation, and still letting him finish, was priceless.

Gunn's progression to scuzzy lawyer is looking nastier all the time. He plays GOLF now? Gunn? The man whose best friend was 4 pasty white demon-hunters and a nasty axe? Who lived for the killing? I know he wanted to be useful, but he didn't jsut get law knowledge - he's sold his soul, and I don't necessarily mean the whole "contract" thing. I mean he's given up who he was inside for being the smoothest badassed lawyer on the west coast. Not only would his old gang no longer recognize him, neither would Gwen (electro-girl), or anyone else?

Fred I'm glad to see commented on it, but she should have said something long before now. Speaking of aloofness, It's almost as if their romantic "thing" never happened! That point has been bugging me more and more this season.


Anyway, to summarize, great episode, a lot to think about, and more to digest in waiting for CORDELIA next week!!!!


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## Henry (Jan 29, 2004)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> I thought it was "In a nefarious manner"  Answer: Sorcery




No, the FIRST one, where he said "Give me another" was "In a mellifluous manner."

Mellifluous, 7 letters, ending in "Y"? How about "sweetly?"


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## Kahuna Burger (Jan 29, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> The line that sticks with me was:
> _"She's a monster now, herself."
> "Spike, she's an innocent victim."
> "So were we, once upon a time."_
> ...




I think it was something about fogetting that most of the time. And I think thats something neither of them dwell on much, that to become monsters, they were first victimized themselves... They were killed, they were turned, neither of them truely chose it, though Spike was seduced somewhat.



> I was almost to the point of tears (of laughter, that is) looking at James Marster's face as Andrew is doing his whole Gandalf/Frodo spiel. The mix of "bloody hell" embarrassment, agitation, and still letting him finish, was priceless.




well, you know, pushing him away and telling him to sod off would have been like kicking a puppy. Poor spike, he'd like to be a puppy kicker, but I don't think he can bring himself to...    and he likes the hero worship, even if he as to play up the distain.

Kahuna Burger


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## RatPunk (Jan 29, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> I'll weigh in and say VERY good episode. Not the best ever, but it was very solid, and offered much to think about.
> 
> 
> Spike and Angel: many people have been wondering about why Angel still feels tortured and Spike's sorta "over it" with getting his soul, and this last five minutes of Angel and Spike talking really emphasize it: Angel had a LOT invested in his victims, where Spike did not. I thought this interaction was quite cool. The line that sticks with me was:
> ...






I believe he just repeated "Once upon a time...", but I would have to go back to the tape to check it.


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## Ao the Overkitty (Jan 29, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> _"She's a monster now, herself."
> "Spike, she's an innocent victim."
> "So were we, once upon a time."_
> 
> Anyone catch what Angel said back after that?




Angel repeats spike's last line, "once upon a time."

Thanks to video tapes and cap text.


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## Hand of Evil (Jan 29, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> No, the FIRST one, where he said "Give me another" was "In a mellifluous manner."
> 
> Mellifluous, 7 letters, ending in "Y"? How about "sweetly?"




Otay, that works, heard the word wrong.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Jan 29, 2004)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> And Idiot Guy - _completely_ over the top, over-acted, and just plain not funny.  His double-cross was pretty telegraphed, and the speech was just plain corny, like something _I_ would have written.  I expect better from professional writers.




The thing is, Andrew talks like that.  His entire frame of reference is lines taken from uber-geek culture: anime, comic books, star wars movies, and so on.  90% of the time  he acts like he's the lead actor in a bad action flick.  That's his character.  It's also entirely possible he was playing that up a little to make sure the Angel gang would underestimate him.

As for why use Angel when he has a dozen slayers...  My guess is he was pretty aware of Angel's resources, and they would be better able to do the tracking than a dozen tough but fairly inexperienced slayers.  The slayers were also there to bail Andrew out if he needed it, I would imagine.

As for Buffy not trusting Angel, just imagine if there were a season of Buffy going on, with cross-overs.  Most of the Scoobs would be arguing that Angel is gone or going bad - I'm sure Buffy would be willing to give him some benefit of the doubt, but they'd be on their toes about it.


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## Henry (Jan 29, 2004)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> The thing is, Andrew talks like that.  His entire frame of reference is lines taken from uber-geek culture: anime, comic books, star wars movies, and so on.  90% of the time  he acts like he's the lead actor in a bad action flick.  That's his character.  It's also entirely possible he was playing that up a little to make sure the Angel gang would underestimate him.




[FAERUN GEEK MOMENT]
In a way, I'll be glad if Andrew ever DOES die, because then we could refer to Johnathan, Andrew, and Warren as the "Dead Three." 
[/FAERUN GEEK MOMENT]

Rumor has it that those three Buffy Characters were designed as a "geek monument" to all of the geeky and nerd-y fights and references that the writers have in their offices at work. I think (unsure) it was Joss who said that one episode's whole "don't destroy the collector's edition Boba Fett" spiel was taken from an in-house argument one day.

Some people don't like the way Andrew's character pokes fun at gamer stereotypes, but in Andrew's case I see it as the writers poking fun at themselves as much as anyone.

Makes me wonder if Tom Lenk (LOVE THAT NAME! ) sympathizes with any of Andrew's ramblings or not.


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## RatPunk (Jan 29, 2004)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I can see them not capturing her or anything, after all, they have no proof...
> But, they don't seem to be investigating her either. And why the heck haven't they contacted the Senior Partners or something of the sort?




Gunn pointed out last night what I've been saying all along: Eve works directly for the Senior Partners (even if she does have her own agenda now). They can't really make a move on her without pissing off some VERY powerful "people". Angel admitted this last night also when they were discussing it at the beginning of the episode. That's not a fight any of them are prepared to undertake just yet.


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## Pielorinho (Jan 29, 2004)

Sweetly.  That works.  Thanks!  I sorta hoped the answer would cast relate to the episode, but if it does, it's too subtle for this boy.

Daniel


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## LightPhoenix (Jan 29, 2004)

zyzzyr said:
			
		

> Andrew's name was mentioned at the very beginning -- when Spike came in and said "Andrew!" He also had his name written on his lunch bag (along with the British flag)
> 
> I wouldn't say that a real crazy person would have offed Spike right away -- I don't think you can expect predictability from someone who is insane. It's just as believable that she wanted the guy to suffer first, and then off him.



My bad, I wasn't paying too much attention during that part since I personally felt whoever acted... well, no, whoever directed needed to tell him to tone it down.  He was alright later on, when he wasn't overacting so much, but that scene in particular was just blah, and mostly because of him.  But you're right, I didn't notice his name either of the two times they said it during that scene, and that was my fault.

As for people who are insane... Dana shows _no_ mercy throughout the rest of the episode for anyone else, except Andrew (contrived).  But people who are traumatized by someone usually need to regain a measure of safety and power over their attackers... I would more expect a _sane_ person to not kill Spike (because of mercy) than an insane one.  _Especially_ once she was cleared up about what he was - she should have dusted him immediately.  Oh right, Deus Ex Angelus.

I thought the whole premise was flawed.  Why wasn't this girl moved to a high security, strongly contained area one she showed signs of super-strength?  How did the medicine even get messed up?  I have friends who work in psych wards and that just does not happen, especially with people who have been in there a while.


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## Wolf72 (Jan 29, 2004)

"... we already knew all that ..."

lol, not a bad episode ...

I liked the last scene with Andrew, he was still scared but stood his ground anyway (wonder who he was more afraid of, Buffy or Angel).


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## Henry (Jan 29, 2004)

Wolf72 said:
			
		

> ...(wonder who he was more afraid of, Buffy or Angel).




Watching last season of Buffy, I would have to say...

...DEFINITELY Buffy.


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## myrdden (Jan 29, 2004)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> the problem with that plot is ... in the destruction of minds and souls in addition to a good meal.




Good point.  I only vaguely caught the last 5 minsutes of the episode but your explanation is very compelling.  I'll have to catch the show again.

Myrdden


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## Pielorinho (Jan 29, 2004)

Oho!  Someone on another messageboard pointed out what the answer to the crossword clue had to be.  Remember how I said that there had to be some kind of inside joke with that?

What's a seven letter word that refers to something having "a smooth, rich flow"?

Why, *Harmony*, of course!  

Daniel


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## KnowTheToe (Jan 29, 2004)

Why can't Joss focus on developing a new show and not Buffy 2.  Andrew was funny, but I want to watch Angel.  I read an article in TV Guide while at the Dr. office and they had an interview with Joss talking about season 1 of Angel and he said he felt he couldn't pull off an episodic show.  

I have to disagree, that is when I like dAngel.  I liked the bunch of one offs with just a slight larger story in the background.  He was the hero of the common poeple, fighting the down and dirty battle in the trenches.  Buffy had been about world ending crap time after time and I liked the feel of Angel, but he has changed it and I don't think I will ever get my show back.  I left Buffy around the fourth season and I think it is itme to leave Angel as well.


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## KnowTheToe (Jan 29, 2004)

RatPunk said:
			
		

> They can't really make a move on her without pissing off some VERY powerful "people". Angel admitted this last night also when they were discussing it at the beginning of the episode. That's not a fight any of them are prepared to undertake just yet.




They pissed those same people off for the last two seasons, why not now?  What are they worried about, that doing good will get them fired?  This Wolfram and Hart thing sucks and has been over played.  Joss should have had them quit this gig and have to reidentify themselves and seach for their new purpose.  At least we don't have to hear about the powers that be anymore.


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## AuroraGyps (Jan 30, 2004)

> As for why use Angel when he has a dozen slayers... My guess is he was pretty aware of Angel's resources, and they would be better able to do the tracking than a dozen tough but fairly inexperienced slayers. The slayers were also there to bail Andrew out if he needed it, I would imagine.




It was also a good oppurtunity to have one of their own really close and see how the Angelized W&H would handle the situation.  The Slayers/Watchers had info, but probably not a good bird's eye view.


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## Vrylakos (Jan 30, 2004)

RatPunk said:
			
		

> Gunn pointed out last night what I've been saying all along: Eve works directly for the Senior Partners (even if she does have her own agenda now). They can't really make a move on her without pissing off some VERY powerful "people". Angel admitted this last night also when they were discussing it at the beginning of the episode. That's not a fight any of them are prepared to undertake just yet.



Another thing: Eve seems to be the only person besides Angel (and the Senior Partners, I assume )who currently knows about Connor's existence new life.

If I were Eve, I would use this knowledge as my ace in the hole/wildcard.

Vrylakos


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## Vocenoctum (Jan 30, 2004)

RatPunk said:
			
		

> Gunn pointed out last night what I've been saying all along: Eve works directly for the Senior Partners (even if she does have her own agenda now). They can't really make a move on her without pissing off some VERY powerful "people". Angel admitted this last night also when they were discussing it at the beginning of the episode. That's not a fight any of them are prepared to undertake just yet.




Right, I said as much, that they can't move directly.
But why can't they investigate, or contact the Senior Partners around her?


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## Vocenoctum (Jan 30, 2004)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> As for why use Angel when he has a dozen slayers...  My guess is he was pretty aware of Angel's resources, and they would be better able to do the tracking than a dozen tough but fairly inexperienced slayers.  The slayers were also there to bail Andrew out if he needed it, I would imagine.



Actually, I think Angel DID call the Watchers once he figured it out, so I think that's why. "pretty aware of Angel's resources" doesn't work for me, simply because Angel's resources didn't work, and he didn't work with Angel so much.
He was shadowing Spike and Spike found her. Where were his Slayers when they were ambushed though.



> As for Buffy not trusting Angel, just imagine if there were a season of Buffy going on, with cross-overs.  Most of the Scoobs would be arguing that Angel is gone or going bad - I'm sure Buffy would be willing to give him some benefit of the doubt, but they'd be on their toes about it.



I don't really know how much they know about W&H. I also don't know if they've discussed the "deal" with Angel. None of it has been addressed, so I don't see any justification for distrusting Angel.
It's just one of those things I don't like, but don't obsess over either.
I also felt Spike's arms should have dusted when cut off, but can't justify that.


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## RangerWickett (Jan 30, 2004)

So, for a poor bastard like me who forgot there was Angel (and Chapelle's Show) on last night, and instead ran a D&D game, could anyone please recount what occurred, in detail?  Make sure to quote everyone exactly, and if you could describe the camera angles and upload mp3s of the music, that'd be great.


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## Crothian (Jan 30, 2004)

I thought it was another good episode.  I liked that it included so much from the Buffy show, Angel and Buffy always did have crossovers and its good to still see that after Buffy has left the airwaves.


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## stevelabny (Jan 30, 2004)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> I thought the whole premise was flawed.  Why wasn't this girl moved to a high security, strongly contained area one she showed signs of super-strength?  How did the medicine even get messed up?  I have friends who work in psych wards and that just does not happen, especially with people who have been in there a while.




Well, the medicine got messed up...probably on purpose
one of the nurse's called W&H...because she "knows someone who works there?" (suuuuure)
and Spike found out about it on his own... presumably through "Doyle"

My guess would be that is another plot by Lefty.

My question about the episode is...if Buffy and co. know that Angel took over W&H, how can they NOT know about Spike? Or do they?

As for your concerns about this showing making Buffy references...deal with it. they are NOT two seperate shows, sorry. Whoever told you they were, LIED. 

And for any Andrew-bashers out there...buy a sense of humor. the boy is comedy GOLD. "Like Gandalf the White returned from the pit of the Balrog"


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## Henry (Jan 30, 2004)

Everyone's entitled to their opinions. Let's not bash anyone for it, please.


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## LightPhoenix (Jan 30, 2004)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> As for your concerns about this showing making Buffy references...deal with it. they are NOT two seperate shows, sorry. Whoever told you they were, LIED.
> 
> And for any Andrew-bashers out there...buy a sense of humor. the boy is comedy GOLD. "Like Gandalf the White returned from the pit of the Balrog"



While I probably shouldn't respond to this, I'm going to.

One, Joss Whedon et al. said it was two seperate shows when they named is _Angel_.  That said, I expect references, I expect the occasional scene that has to do with _Buffy_... I don't mind them at all.  However, this show has been on for four and a half seasons, building it's _own_ characters, stories, and mythologies.  Yes, I resent it when an entire episode of a show I like is basically a follow-up episode for a show that ended that I never really watched anyway.  And of course, you never really saw _Angel_ stuff creep into _Buffy_ like this, did you?  Aside from the Faith cross-over, which the _Angel_ side of really didn't even feel like a cross-over.

Two, some kid gibbering on like an idiot about geek stuff is not funny.  It's sad and pathetic.  If this boy is comedy gold then the ore market just crashed, because it was terrible.  Of course, I don't blame the actor so much as I blame the director and writer for not realizing that it's just dumb and over the top.  Any hack writer can create a character that's uber-geeky and conforms to stereotypes.

It seems like all you _Buffy_-watchers (no pun intended) seem to like the episode, and that's great.  I'm glad someone got something out of the episode.  I just happened to think it was the worst episode so far; that it did nothing to advance the story, marginalized the cast of the show that _made_ it the show, and was just plain poorly conceptualized.  Different strokes for different folks.


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## Vocenoctum (Jan 31, 2004)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> So, for a poor bastard like me who forgot there was Angel (and Chapelle's Show) on last night, and instead ran a D&D game, could anyone please recount what occurred, in detail?  Make sure to quote everyone exactly, and if you could describe the camera angles and upload mp3s of the music, that'd be great.




Well, the only skit I really recall offhand was having a white family with the last name of "Ni**er" or thereabouts. You can fill in most of the jokes from there.


and in case you care about Angel, there was a young girl abducted, tortured, found on some street, tossed in an asylum. She was a protoslayer, and imbued when they cast the spell on Buffy. Her medication got mixed up and she broke out, killed some people, muttered insanely.
Angel called The Watchers, who sent Andrew. Spike patrolled, Andrew accompanied him, they got ambushed, Spike was captured. The girl was having slayer-flashbacks, so inserted Spike's image into the memories of her abduction. She chained Spike up, injected some stuff, beat him up, cut off his hands.
Andrew ran to W&H, got Angel, they went to the place, Angel fought the slayer, and held her while she got tranq'd by some W&H team guys.
They were transporting her out, and Andrew said "she's mine" they faced off, then a bunch of slayers came out. Angel said "wait til Buffy hears" Andrew said "she's the one that said so, no one trusts you"
They left with slayer, SPike was in a hospital, where his arms were reattached. he and Angel had a talk, the end.


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## shilsen (Jan 31, 2004)

Here's a question - Vampires in the Buffyverse are physically corpses, right? No breathing, blood pumping, etc. In which case, how come tranquilizers and drugs (even mundane ones, as the insane girl in this episode used) work on them?


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## Mercule (Jan 31, 2004)

shilsen said:
			
		

> Here's a question - Vampires in the Buffyverse are physically corpses, right? No breathing, blood pumping, etc. In which case, how come tranquilizers and drugs (even mundane ones, as the insane girl in this episode used) work on them?



Actually, from what I've been able to gather, they are still breathing, etc.  Angel's been drugged before, too.  *shrug*  Doesn't fit my image of vampires, but the Buffyverse has its own mythos.

As far as last night's show, I didn't think it was too bad.  Basically filler stuff, but developed this "black hole of W&H" thing a bit.

My only real complaint was Andrew.  Man, do I hate that character!  Always have.  He sucked the life out of every minute he was on screen in Buffy, and he did doubly so in Angel because of the difference in mood.  Please, Joss, in the name of all that's holy, unholy, or just plain mauve, never show us Andrew again.  Seeing him makes me want to change the channel.


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## Particle_Man (Jan 31, 2004)

Btw...is Gunn really Gunn, or has he been replaced by a W&H lookalike.  Just a theory...


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## Taren Seeker (Jan 31, 2004)

Everyone seems to be assuming that this Ep was filler and had nothing really to do with Angel.

Did anyone think that this may be the beginnings of a major new story arc? Whether you like Buffy or not, the fact is that it's a shared universe and the awakening of the Slayers is a major power shift. I'm glad to see them develop this in Angel.

I am also glad that we are running into more power groups (Slayers, whoever sicced the cyborgs on them) in the world, it was getting on my nerves that there was Angel and Co., W&H and not much else. The fact that there are major forces for good out there that now view Angel as the enemy opens up a host of possibilities for me. 

Oh, and Andrew was awesome. His Hobbit haircut was the crowning touch


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## Staffan (Feb 1, 2004)

Mercule said:
			
		

> Actually, from what I've been able to gather, they are still breathing, etc.  Angel's been drugged before, too.  *shrug*  Doesn't fit my image of vampires, but the Buffyverse has its own mythos.



Nope, not breathing. That was established pretty early, when Angel was the only one who could go into a room with toxic gas/smoke to do something. Also used in Angel season 4 when Angel went to Jasmine's home dimension, where the air was toxic. Their lungs apparently function muscularly (because they can talk and smoke), but for some reason they can't give mouth-to-mouth.


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## RangerWickett (Feb 1, 2004)

Well, a vampire can't give a person mouth to mouth because, like, there'd be zombie dust or something, and you'd kill the person.

But kissing and sex is just fine.  I mean . . . vampiric STDs?  Ew.


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## shilsen (Feb 1, 2004)

Staffan said:
			
		

> Nope, not breathing. That was established pretty early, when Angel was the only one who could go into a room with toxic gas/smoke to do something. Also used in Angel season 4 when Angel went to Jasmine's home dimension, where the air was toxic. Their lungs apparently function muscularly (because they can talk and smoke), but for some reason they can't give mouth-to-mouth.




Plus Connor dumping Angel to the bottom of the sea in a box and counting on the fact that Angel would stay alive and suffering, because he doesn't need to breathe.

I was just curious about the whole tranquilizer and drugs thing because that seems one place where Joss and co. break their own rules for how vampires work. It's one thing with magical drugs or the like, but apparently normal stuff works on vamps too (as in this episode), and that should be impossible with no blood being pumped by their hearts.


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## CCamfield (Feb 1, 2004)

Taren Seeker said:
			
		

> I am also glad that we are running into more power groups (Slayers, whoever sicced the cyborgs on them) in the world, it was getting on my nerves that there was Angel and Co., W&H and not much else. The fact that there are major forces for good out there that now view Angel as the enemy opens up a host of possibilities for me.




Yeah, actually this message has been hammered down on them a bit recently - this episode was stronger, but Spike's comments to "Crockett and Tubbs" in the previous episode also come to mind.  ("You don't change a place like that, it changes you.")

I hope we will see the cyborgs again, or their creators.

I was reading in a completely different context that the mandate for Angel this season is to be more episodic.  Which I guess it has been, compared with how last season was handled.  Do you guys think the show is weakened by this?  I have to admit that there's enough evolution in the story from episode to episode to satisfy me.


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## John Crichton (Feb 1, 2004)

My thoughts mirrored (spoilers for next week in that review, but only if you haven't seen the previews) -

http://entertainment-geekly.com/web/general/jan2004/Angel_Damage

Excellent episode. Loved the Buffy tie-ins but they weren't needed to enjoy the show. The 'evil' talk at the end was wonderful.


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## Henry (Feb 1, 2004)

OK, the theory on vampires being affected by drugs - the only drugs that affect them apparently are those which enter via the blood - although a vampaire's heart does not beat, the blodd is still (somehow) used in the body - otherwise,  why would vampires need blood to stay "healthy"? This blood is obviously incorporated throughout the body, and any pathogens that are injected follow this same path, even if it's NOT circulatory any longer.

Several clues:
-Spike's whole "woodstock - fed off a flower-person" speech
-Spike getting drunk numerous times
-Angel getting injected numerous times

Gas-borne pathogens, as long as the vampire doesn't choose to breathe, don't affect them. Vampires COULD breathe,  otherwise, they can't blow smoke.

Why did Angel say to Zander "I have no breath?" It's possibly because in two centuries of being alive, the ponce NEVER learned CPR, and didn't want to admit it with Zander standing right there.


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## Taren Seeker (Feb 1, 2004)

Argh! WARNING, that review has a BIG spoiler in it for next week!


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## John Crichton (Feb 1, 2004)

Taren Seeker said:
			
		

> Argh! WARNING, that review has a BIG spoiler in it for next week!



Oops!!  Sorry about that.  The spoilers are the same thing that are in the teaser for next week so I didn't thing to put a warning.  I'm REALLY sorry about that.  I have edited the post with a spoiler alert.


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## CCamfield (Feb 1, 2004)

Taren Seeker said:
			
		

> Argh! WARNING, that review has a BIG spoiler in it for next week!




The link that John Crichton posted?

THANKS.

I loathe and detest spoilers.  We don't even get the preview "next week on Angel" bits here in Canada ... I prefer watching the show in a way that I can be surprised by everything.


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## John Crichton (Feb 1, 2004)

CCamfield said:
			
		

> The link that John Crichton posted?
> 
> THANKS.
> 
> I loathe and detest spoilers. We don't even get the preview "next week on Angel" bits here in Canada ... I prefer watching the show in a way that I can be surprised by everything.



Hey...

I did amend it and said I was truly sorry.  People around here know that I'm very careful about these things.  This one slipped through.


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## Taren Seeker (Feb 2, 2004)

No problem, like CC said, we don't get the next week previews in Canada, eh?


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## satori01 (Feb 2, 2004)

While Spike was nowhere near as sadistic as Angel was a Vamp, William did get the moniker "Spike", by torturing people with railroad spikes.  Clearly, at least sometimes Bloody William liked to play with his food.

I love the fact that with both Angel and Spike having souls we can get an insiders look into what it means to have been creatures of evil, looking back with repentance and cognizance on what they were/are.

I always felt before whenever the dynamic souled duo, talked about their souls, it was always with not a small manner of melodrama.

The last five minutes of the episode were great.

As an aside, Andrew was not as funny here as he was on Buffy, where every week he became more and more the gem of the show.


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## CCamfield (Feb 2, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I did amend it and said I was truly sorry.  People around here know that I'm very careful about these things.  This one slipped through.




Not to worry.  I actually posted that before I saw your response.


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## DanMcS (Feb 2, 2004)

satori01 said:
			
		

> While Spike was nowhere near as sadistic as Angel was a Vamp, William did get the moniker "Spike", by torturing people with railroad spikes.  Clearly, at least sometimes Bloody William liked to play with his food.




That name has a sort-of amusing history that is never completely explained.  Yes, that's how he got his nickname, but in that flashback episode to when he was still alive, we hear some young nobleguy mocking William's poetry and saying he'd rather have railroad spikes driven through his ears than listen to another poem.  I don't think William came up with the idea all on his own, I think he granted that guy his wish 

Regarding spoilers, and the "next week" promo, here in columbus, Angel appears on the combo UPN/WB channel, and for some reason they'll show the "next week" trailer for UPN shows but not WB shows.  So I always saw the trailer for Buffy when it was still on, but not Angel.

They do receive it, though, and intentionally decide not to play it, which is just mean, man.  Quite often, you'll see a split-second flash of one of the cast and hear the words "Next wee.." before they cut it off.  Talk about torture.


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## Staffan (Feb 2, 2004)

DanMcS said:
			
		

> That name has a sort-of amusing history that is never completely explained.  Yes, that's how he got his nickname, but in that flashback episode to when he was still alive, we hear some young nobleguy mocking William's poetry and saying he'd rather have railroad spikes driven through his ears than listen to another poem.  I don't think William came up with the idea all on his own, I think he granted that guy his wish



It's also hinted at that he mostly did that to impress Dru and Angelus.


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## John Crichton (Feb 2, 2004)

Staffan said:
			
		

> It's also hinted at that he mostly did that to impress Dru and Angelus.



I would go as far as to say that it is fact.


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