# ENWorld = whiners arguing ?



## Quasqueton

In talking with a couple Players in my group, ENWorld came up in the conversation.

"I don't care to read it because its just a bunch whiners arguing."

Do you think there's any truth in that statement? How do you think non-regulars, or new visitors see this place?

I once mentioned to my group how I'd really like to post a story hour thread about my campaign. A couple in the group thought it would be fun. The other couple, not so much. One Player said, "I don't want a bunch of [jerks] posting how stupid we are."

Is that what you see in story hour threads?

Quasqueton


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## Hand of Evil

Not at all.  Look at the threads, their nature is not of whinners.


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## DragonLancer

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> In talking with a couple Players in my group, ENWorld came up in the conversation.
> 
> "I don't care to read it because its just a bunch whiners arguing."
> 
> Do you think there's any truth in that statement? How do you think non-regulars, or new visitors see this place?




A year or so ago I noticed there was a lot of negativity and opinion bashing from posters here. If one poster had a different view on something than someone else you would feel the heat come off the thread. These days its nowhere near as bad, and people seem to be mor accepting of others views.

I rarely have the time to read the SH forum, so I can't comment on that.


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## Thornir Alekeg

You're so stupid asking this question.    

I think it depends upon what you first see here.  My first experiences with the boards were very positive.  I posted looking for some advice and got several helpful postings.  

Of course if you first look at a thread that has turned into an edition war, or some of the discussions on the rules forum, you may find people getting a different viewpoint.  

And I can't say I recall ever seeing negative postings in the Story Hour forum, but I've only read maybe a dozen or so threads there.


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## Xath

I havn't seen much negative response on the SH thread, but then, all of the SH threads I've read have been very good.  As for criticism and whining, you'll find that anywhere.  It's in human nature.  But I think ENWorld has a much smaller percentage than many other places I've seen.


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## DaveMage

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> "I don't care to read it because its just a bunch whiners arguing."




...but enough about the publishers...


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## JoeGKushner

I know a lot of my friends see it that way even as they argue over Conan vs. Grim Tales handling low magic campaigns better.

It's more a stand offish thing I thing from those I know.


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## Quickbeam

Xath said:
			
		

> I havn't seen much negative response on the SH thread, but then, all of the SH threads I've read have been very good.  As for criticism and whining, you'll find that anywhere.  It's in human nature.  But I think ENWorld has a much smaller percentage than many other places I've seen.




I'd say this pretty well sums up my viewpoint as well.

The SH threads very rarely have negative commentary, although there is the occasional constructive suggestion or rules lawyering.  Overall, EN World has a smaller percentage of "whiners" than I've seen on any other discussion board _by far_, which is why this place is on RPG online home.


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## Cutter XXIII

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> "I don't care to read it because its just a bunch whiners arguing."




That describes the whole of the Internet.

It's not for everyone.


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## BiggusGeekus

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> "I don't care to read it because its just a bunch whiners arguing."





WAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!    It's not true!!!!!!



I think what some people get miffed about is our seemingly single-minded desire to embrace the RAW.  An undead with d4 hit dice instead of d12?  Can't be done!  Against da r00lz!

I'm somewhat sympathetic to this view.  I don't agree with it, but I definately see where it comes from.


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## Rel

I think there are certainly plenty of threads that crop up that open with the poster complaining about something.  As Xath says, it is far more in the nature of people to complain about something they hate rather than gush about what they like.  Depending on the thread in question I skip them, offer my opinion or read through without offering comment.  Mostly I skip them.

But there is a tremendous wealth of knowledge, wisdom, humor and genuine caring at ENWorld that far outweighs the perennial "Clerics are Broken!" or "Rangers got the Shaft!" threads.  One reason that I think ENWorld is overpopulated by GM's is that it is more helpful to GM's than players.  GM's are in a position to implement many of the good ideas presented and discussed here while players are put mostly in the role of commenting on the "way things are".


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## Jdvn1

Rel said:
			
		

> But there is a tremendous wealth of knowledge, wisdom, humor and genuine caring at ENWorld that far outweighs the perennial "Clerics are Broken!" or "Rangers got the Shaft!" threads.



I agree. A new poster, though, might only last through his first impression, which might be one of those threads.

I think you sometimes have to know where to go on EN World because every thread/forum isn't for everyone.


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## Xath

Rel said:
			
		

> One reason that I think ENWorld is overpopulated by GM's is that it is more helpful to GM's than players.




Hijack:  But Rel has proven that it is also populated with the colloquial Playa's 

Back on Topic: I'm more of a Player than a GM, but I still find ENWorld immensly helpful.  I enjoy the sense of the close knit community that we have here, and I think that's useful to any gamer, regardless of experience or preferred role.


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## Varianor Abroad

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> Do you think there's any truth in that statement? How do you think non-regulars, or new visitors see this place?




As an incredibly fast-moving place where the regulars dominate the conversation. (I don't mean dominate in a bad way, I just mean that they are the ones who talk.) It's like going into a bar when you move into town. Do you pipe up the first day in and introduce yourself? Or do you check out the scene first. Like many, do you maybe come by to sit quietly with a few friends and listen to the band?

That said, I agree that a year to six months ago, there were a some vocal posters (mainly publishers, as observed upthread far more humorously than I can put it) causing some issues. I did not feel like posting a lot because of the extreme positions taken by a small handful. The moderator staff has done the right thing and gotten that roar down. 

The Story Hour forum, by contrast, is the last place I expect a flame war. General is one of the most likely, but even that's a low probability.


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## Steel_Wind

There are some people who enjoy participating in online forums - and then there are those that simply do not. 

Compared to any other online forums discussions concerning gaming, ENWorld is the least "whiney" and the posters here probably have the highest median age among internet gaming forums (certainly the next biggest, RPG.net, tends to cater to somewhat younger demographic).

I am a litle bemused by it all too. Several others in my gaming circle have the ENWorld front page as their home page - but they *only* use it for news as a passive homepage. They simply do not go into the forums at all and the only time they browse is when I post a specific link to a thread on our private mailing list.

Reason for this? None that I can see. But I've stopped trying to convert them. You either "get it" or you don't. No point in struggling. It's not like ENWorld isn't busy enough already


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## HeapThaumaturgist

There are two things out of hand that I think could turn off a new visitor from sticking around.

First is the 3-5 "My (Somebody In My Group) Sucks, Hold Me" threads that hang out on the first page.  Not that people don't genuinely have problems, but there's quite a bit of whining going on.

Second is pretty much the entirety of the Rules forum.  While occassionally a useful place to stop by, it's generally ... whizzing contests between wanna-be pundits, to be honest.  Simple rules questions turn into proclamations issued from on high by volatile personalities and 8+ page arguments about the most minute trivialities.  If MY first encounter with ENWorld had been on the Rules forum, I'd probably have never come back, based just on the vitriol.

--fje


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## Ashrum the Black

I'd have to agree with the magority. Enworld is, by far, a bastian of civility and restraint compared to many of the minitures game forums I frequent. If the publishers think we are hard on them, they should check out some Games Workshop "fan" sites. Ouch!   

As for the story hours, I've read a several and found them to be very positive experiences. Of course I'm sure a few in the mix may have some issues, but I haven't found them yet in my personal experience. 

Most of the credit has to go to our wonderful moderator's that have no problem jumping in and quieting things down when they get out of hand. 

With all of that being said, I have noticed that we have a penchant for discussing an item to death, resurrecting it, and doing it again. To some, this civil back and forth may seem like whining. Especially as folks line up and really start to hold their ground on an issue. To me that would just be the differences in playing or gaming style coming out. But to some this is whining, as one group refuses to admit they're "wrong" and just see "reseaon". 

Which view is correct? Both of them. Each in the eye of the beholder. (and not the floaty death kind either!)

-Ashrum


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## hexgrid

Not necessarily whining, but enworld does seem to have a large amount of what I see as completely pointless arguments.

For example- the recent one about wether D&D has too much magic: Some think that D&D has to much magic for their tastes, and tone it down in the games they run. Others are happy with the magic level in the RAW, and run their games that way. 

There's really nothing to argue about here (how can you argue against someone's personal preference?) but we do. For pages and pages.


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## reveal

When I first started posting a few years ago, I was torn. On one hand, people were willing to answer questions from "n00bs" but there was still a faction of people who would put you down or say something mean-spirited. I didn't really start posting frequently until last year when I kind of created a niche for myself. 

For every person that is out there welcoming people, there are those that want to push them away. It just takes a little patience and the willingness to gloss over those you don't agree with to really immerse yourself in the EN World community.


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## diaglo

Varianor Abroad said:
			
		

> The Story Hour forum, by contrast, is the last place I expect a flame war. General is one of the most likely, but even that's a low probability.




yeah, i don't see it much on the Story Hour forum. and that is where i hang out quite a bit while i'm here.


read the story hour in my sig.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard

reveal said:
			
		

> When I first started posting a few years ago, I was torn. On one hand, people were willing to answer questions from "n00bs" but there was still a faction of people who would put you down or say something mean-spirited. I didn't really start posting frequently until last year when I kind of created a niche for myself.
> 
> For every person that is out there welcoming people, there are those that want to push them away. It just takes a little patience and the willingness to gloss over those you don't agree with to really immerse yourself in the EN World community.



 Well, as has been already said, that's the internet. No matter how good a place, that kind of thing is going to happen everywhere in one form or another. People just come to the internet to be negative far more than positive.

As for the Story Hour forum...there have only been two problems in my memory there(ask a mod, but I know for a fact that Brother Shatterstone talks constantly about how little he's ever, every had to even look in that forum) that were problems. And those problems rose from creative differences between the players and whoever was writing the game down...NEVER, have I seen someone come in and say "That sucks!"

Because, really, are you going to read all that gets written there if it sucks? Bah! Of course not. Just pass it over and find something else. There may be whiners everywhere, but ENWorld doesn't tolerate jerks that come in and flame like that.


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## jaerdaph

DaveMage said:
			
		

> ...but enough about the publishers...




*rimshot*


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## EricNoah

There's also a pretty genuine difference between the tone in General and the tone in Rules.  I think if someone visited Rules first they might get a different taste of EN World.


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## eris404

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> Do you think there's any truth in that statement? How do you think non-regulars, or new visitors see this place? <snip> Is that what you see in story hour threads?




Yes, negativity pops up from time to time, but not nearly as much as I've seen on other boards that I won't mention.

I don't know how they got the impression that posters would bash a story hour! I'll admit I was nervous to start posting one here myself, but that was because of my own lack of confidence, not because of anyone here. No one has posted anything negative in any story hour I have read, including my own. (So, if you still want to start one, I'd say do it!)


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## reveal

EricNoah said:
			
		

> There's also a pretty genuine difference between the tone in General and the tone in Rules.  I think if someone visited Rules first they might get a different taste of EN World.




That's the smartest thing I've ever heard anyone say about anything.


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## SpiderMonkey

EN World is basically the only message board I frequent (and is definitely the only one I post on), because of the lack of whining.  Yes, some of the debates get heated, but c'mon: try reading the wotc boards for more than half an hour before you're overcome with the desire to tear your keyboard apart with a claw hammer. I dare ya.  I love my EN World, and with my schedule the way it is, ENW is the only gaming site I have time for anymore.

I will concede that I stopped going to the rules forum for the reasons that HeapThaumaturgist pointed out; I'm not much of a rules person anyway, so it wasn't much of a loss.

Pretty much everything I've read in the SH forum, from the actual stories to the posts, have been posititive; so Q, I don't see why your group would have a problem with that request in particular.


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## jaerdaph

EricNoah said:
			
		

> There's also a pretty genuine difference between the tone in General and the tone in Rules.  I think if someone visited Rules first they might get a different taste of EN World.




I think everyone should visit "off topic" first just to see what a great bunch of kind and caring people hang out here.


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## Bastoche

I've been on the 3 (or 4) version of ENworld since before 3E was out. I left for some real life reasons about 2-3 years ago and just returned. 

My impression is that either my view of the game/board has changed or the regulars changed. There's way too many threads about trivial things that should never be discussed on a message board IMO. Here is not the place to find the solution to your gaming problems as insignificant (or significant) they may be. Here is the place to hear about new d20 products and (house) rules of the game.

We are not the ones who will tell you how to tame the trouble player or wise up the stubborn DM.

To a newcomer, such thread can very well be seen as whining (I know I do). Plus the the WOTC sucks! and/or 4E threads, etc.... This place aint what it used to be IMO.


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## Jdvn1

jaerdaph said:
			
		

> I think everyone should visit "off topic" first just to see what a great bunch of kind and caring people hang out here.



 Technically, the Welcome Thread accomplishes that. Not that anyone sticks around there.


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## wedgeski

I don't get it. Besides, in the couple of years I've been posting here the general tone has stayed the same: civil, with the odd passionate outburst, and just a smattering of posts/posters barely worth getting annoyed about. The thread repetition rate *is* very high (4e, 'problem players', 'funniest this that and the other') but this is a message board, it happens.


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## DragonLancer

SpiderMonkey said:
			
		

> Yes, some of the debates get heated, but c'mon: try reading the wotc boards for more than half an hour before you're overcome with the desire to tear your keyboard apart with a claw hammer. I dare ya.




I'll pass. I've tried reading to the WotC boards and it never happens. They are so dull, nothing of interest ever gets posted there. Dullsville well before I see the flames and rants.


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## iwatt

Ashrum the BlackWith said:
			
		

> all of that being said, I have noticed that we have a penchant for discussing an item to death, resurrecting it, and doing it again.




Shhh.... You'll bring Shilsen's paladin thread back to life   


_Edit Post:_ To late, it has risen from it's grave once more...


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard

Bastoche said:
			
		

> To a newcomer, such thread can very well be seen as whining (I know I do). Plus the the WOTC sucks! and/or 4E threads, etc.... This place aint what it used to be IMO.




The interesting thing is that, really, only the topics have changed. It USED to be edition wars(not a hint of 4e threads), Paladin problems, Ranger got teh shaft threads, an alignment debates...those have faded out more so that I'd have ever expected, and new things have stepped up to take their place.


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## DonTadow

There are just way too many threads on here to sterotype anything.  I've seen some great debates, some highly theoretical debates, some straight up mud slinging debates and complete whining.  There are reviews, opinionated.  Its just alot going on on here.  Best thing is the advice.  I recommend to every dm i come in contact with that if they want to get better go to ENworld.


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## Crothian

It is true, just doesn't apply to everyone.


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## IronWolf

I don't think the boards seem whiny to me.  Sure there are threads that might go that way, but as a whole I find this a very friendly community.  There aren't too many places on the Internet that have this atmosphere in my opinion.  EN World certainly has a community feel from what I can see in my time here.  Like anyplace though it may just take some time getting used to the place before one feels like they fit in or that its a place they want to hang out.  Even with all of that, EN World can't be everything for everybody - but no site can do that.




			
				Bastoche said:
			
		

> My impression is that either my view of the game/board has changed or the regulars changed. There's way too many threads about trivial things that should never be discussed on a message board IMO. Here is not the place to find the solution to your gaming problems as insignificant (or significant) they may be. Here is the place to hear about new d20 products and (house) rules of the game.




I am not sure why this isn't the place for solutions to gaming problems.  The rules and house rules are still discussed in their own forums and the site still focuses on news on the main page and in threads and forums on the board.  While I wasn't here in the early days it just seems to me that EN World has evolved into a community rather than simply a news site and place to debate rules.  I think all the things you mention liking about EN World are still here, just there is also *more* going on now than there used to be.


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## Ashrum the Black

> Originally Posted by *iwatt*:
> Shhh.... You'll bring Shilsen's paladin thread back to life
> 
> 
> Edit Post: To late, it has risen from it's grave once more...




Oops, I shall report forthwith to the Inquisition for my dabblings in thread necromancy!   

-Ashrum


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## Hussar

Whoops, it appears I have run afoul of the aformentioned unmentionables and had my post deleted.  Heh.  Well, suffice to say that I think that ENworld is full of very articulate, passionate gamers who really put a great deal of thought into their games.  It's been a real pleasure to discover posting here.


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## DonTadow

Hussar said:
			
		

> Whoops, it appears I have run afoul of the aformentioned unmentionables and had my post deleted.  Heh.  Well, suffice to say that I think that ENworld is full of very articulate, passionate gamers who really put a great deal of thought into their games.  It's been a real pleasure to discover posting here.



This post sounds even better when read aloud in a smarmy British Accent.


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## Bastoche

IronWolf said:
			
		

> I am not sure why this isn't the place for solutions to gaming problems.




First, because anyone who post a "problem" post a one-sided story with way too much lack of details to come up with anything usefull to anyone. Second, because any gaming group that listens to the offered "solutions" do not play _their_ game but the _standardized ENworld type of game_ TM. I greatly dislike the general attutide I feel here that define the DM as the omnipotent master of "his" game. The solutions to "so-called" problems are very streamlined by peer pressure. Are we playing the game right? Etc. 

Each and everyone of these dicussion fails to address the real question: Do all the players around the table want to play the same game? 3E assumes all players "powergame". Each character has to fill a role in the party else all that CR buisness fails. However, it is possible to use these rules for a different approach. Yet in all this "solution search to gaming problems" threads, that issue is NEVER pointed out. Everyone suggest what HE would do presuming everyone play with the same style as HE. Therefore, no solution can ever come out of these discussions.



> The rules and house rules are still discussed in their own forums and the site still focuses on news on the main page and in threads and forums on the board.  While I wasn't here in the early days it just seems to me that EN World has evolved into a community rather than simply a news site and place to debate rules.  I think all the things you mention liking about EN World are still here, just there is also *more* going on now than there used to be.




ENworld never "evolved" into a community. It always has been, like every/most forum. The *more* that is going on is IMO overshadowing the good stuff. YMMV. I know my gaming needs have changed a lot during my current campaign and it may be influencing my opinion of ENworld negatively... That being said, I still participate a bit...


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## Belen

Well, my wife does feel like there are too many argumentative threads on ENWorld.  She posts here rarely.  I have heard those comments several times, although I tend to disagree.  ENWorld is more than just arguments, although those will happen anytime a bunch of people passionate about something get together.

Considering the sheer number of newbies that seem to be around lately, I would say that ENWorld still does the trick.


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## Teflon Billy

HeapThaumaturgist said:
			
		

> First is the 3-5 "My (Somebody In My Group) Sucks, Hold Me" threads that hang out on the first page.  Not that people don't genuinely have problems, but there's quite a bit of whining going on.
> 
> Second is pretty much the entirety of the Rules forum.  While occassionally a useful place to stop by, it's generally ... whizzing contests between wanna-be pundits, to be honest.  Simple rules questions turn into proclamations issued from on high by volatile personalities and 8+ page arguments about the most minute trivialities...




Well, that saves me having to post. Nicely said HT.


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## Belen

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Well, that saves me having to post. Nicely said HT.




But you did post.  Now, I must argue with you.


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## Grover Cleaveland

The internet = whiners arguing. Such is the nature of the medium.


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## Quickbeam

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> But you did post.  Now, I must argue with you.




No, no.  I believe that _I_ was going to argue with TB and you moved ahead of your initiative.  Now wait your turn or I'll be forced to complain about the matter further.


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## MacMathan

I have been reading EN in its various incarnations since pre-3e. I would have to say that it does feel like the proportion of negativity has grown over the last year, especially in General. I also now find the rules forum hard to read for the reasons others have mentioned above. 

If my first exposure had been to the Rules forum or to many of the General post now days I have to say that I would not have hung around. That said I find the story hours to be very civil and one of the best areas on the board.

The Mods here do a great job and are some of the best ones I have encountered online. That said perhaps a separate forum for Rants/Complaints/"Troubles with my Group" would serve to make General a less negative place since that is where a newcomer probably lands first.

Oh and of course the obligatory auto-deletion of "When is 4e coming" threads  *jk*


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## malladin

Its a lot better here than at a lot of places. I feel the biggest problem here, and its true of all internet discussions, is people focus their replies to the parts of posts they feel they can and want to deal with and ignore the rest, which can be frustrating and cause the odd flare up.

Nigel


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## KB9JMQ

I have never felt this place was equal to whiners or filled with arguements.
Sure there are threads I don't read or comment in/on but overall this place helps me make my gaming better. That overrules any and all other issues.


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## Jdvn1

KB9JMQ said:
			
		

> I have never felt this place was equal to whiners or filled with arguements.
> Sure there are threads I don't read or comment in/on but overall this place helps me make my gaming better. That overrules any and all other issues.



I agree. I wonder if that's because I can compare to other forums?


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## Beale Knight

DaveMage said:
			
		

> ...but enough about the publishers...




Laugh out loud funny!


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## Pseudonym

I haven't noticed any more whining that usual, though I tend to read the boards somewhat sporadically.  I do notice that topics keep coming up in various forms, which bring out the same stock answers from the same usual subjects on the issue. 4E, piracy, high vs low magic, Paladin and (insert random monstrous humanoid) babies etc.  That has been the way of things since I first started using the Internet.

I can understand when a newbie make their first post on a subject thinking that they have some new and significant insight that no one has ever thought of before on the subject, without realizing that there have been ten threads on the subject in that past month alone, but that is excusable.  What gets me is the desire of certain people to rehash the same arguments they always do.

Aside from that, I haven't found the tone here to be such that I regret sticking around.


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## jaerdaph

Quickbeam said:
			
		

> No, no.  I believe that _I_ was going to argue with TB and you moved ahead of your initiative.  Now wait your turn or I'll be forced to complain about the matter further.




Core Rulebook IV: Robert's Rules of Order.


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## Shemeska

I've always seen Enworld as less likely to have whiners than other forums. It's partially that Enworld isn't swamped with the horde of 11 year olds that the WotC forums tend to be flooded with; Enworld's community is more mature and more mellowed for a variety of reasons. There's also a drawback perhaps in that, with a community that is about 10 years older than me, but it's outweighed by being less whiny.


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## BigFreekinGoblinoid

Shemeska said:
			
		

> ... There's also a drawback perhaps in that...





Like what? Just curious, no judgments here. I learned not to judge people back when I turned 83 back in the 70's ...


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## Acquana

LOLZ INTERNETS

Eh.  Whining happens.  Jerkery happens.  It's really all about anonymity.  As soon as people think they're completely anonymous, they think they can allow their id to run free without guilt or care.  

Story to prove my point:  In my high school computer class I started a notepad file and left it on the desktop.  It became a kind of mini-forum, and a handful of people would sneak off to that particular computer during class to post one or two comments.  The result was that even though most of us had a good idea who each of the various posters were, we still had a barrier of anonymity that allowed us to say to each other how we really felt.  Very often it wasn't as pleasant as what we said to each other's faces.  We ended up finding out that a lot of our actual opinions clashed rather violently and none of us were really willing to see past our own noses.  By the end of that semestere we really didn't do much else other than flame each other constantly.

Honestly, from what I can see (being a SomethingAwful Goon by proxy), most message boards are a _lot_ worse than this one.  But like most of the others saying that, I don't hang around Rules.  I barely care to memorize the ones out of the books, so I tend to take anyone else's rules with a lukewarm attitude.  Certainly not enough to hang around a rules forum. 

I do like Off-Topic, even despite occasional attention whores.  I figure "Eh, so they want a little encouragement or advice.  I don't see much purpose in getting irritated about it."  I loves me some Art threads (ah, ha! "Behold my sig" plug here!), and I read a couple of Story Hours.  The only ones who usually post in Story Hours are the folks who've spent enough time to read it, so they're rather complimenting.

Them's my two cents on EN World.


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## francisca

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> In talking with a couple Players in my group, ENWorld came up in the conversation.
> 
> "I don't care to read it because its just a bunch whiners arguing."
> 
> Do you think there's any truth in that statement? How do you think non-regulars, or new visitors see this place?
> 
> Quasqueton



In my opinion, there is a lot more of it now (past 6-8 months) than there ever has been.  

There are certainly many posters who can't seem to understand that preferences vary from person to person.


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## francisca

jaerdaph said:
			
		

> Core Rulebook IV: Robert's Rules of Order.



You know, I've seen a lot of groups who could benefit from that.

You may be on to something.

You get my nod for "Funny-ha-ha, but dang true!" post of the day.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard

Shemeska said:
			
		

> There's also a drawback perhaps in that, with a community that is about 10 years older than me, but it's outweighed by being less whiny.




How's this a drawback? Heck, I'm younger than you(from what I remember, at least) and I don't have a problem at all. Remember, us younger ones will rule the board when all of the Old Ones finally die.


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## Acquana

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> How's this a drawback? Heck, I'm younger than you(from what I remember, at least) and I don't have a problem at all. Remember, us younger ones will rule the board when all of the Old Ones finally die.




Old One is dying?!


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard

Acquana said:
			
		

> Old One is dying?!



 I dunno...is it/he?

Hopefully I won't be spotted...that comment alone could drive me straight to madness.


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## Xombie Master

You take the good,
You take the bad,
You say I whine,
I say I'm mad.
The facts of life!
They don't join in,
They say we're lame,
but I still hate,
them all the same.
The facts of life!

There's a thin line between whining and anger.  I express anger pretty much all the time, as it's the purest of emotions.  The thing is, when people agree with your point, they say you're right to be "angry".  When they're wrong, and you're right, they say your just "whining".
A whiner won't admit they are wrong.  An angry person can resist being a whiner by giving in when they make a mistake.


----------



## Jdvn1

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> How's this a drawback? Heck, I'm younger than you(from what I remember, at least) and I don't have a problem at all. Remember, us younger ones will rule the board when all of the Old Ones finally die.



 ... I never thought about that. I wonder how long EN World will last, and how long the oldest member will have been registered.

... Although if Apocalyptic Kitty's account keeps getting passed on, he might have no competition.


----------



## EricNoah

francisca said:
			
		

> There are certainly many posters who can't seem to understand that preferences vary from person to person.




No!! There's only one universal truth, and if others are too stupid or weak to see it, then they must be driven away!!


----------



## Acquana

*Now hold on ...*



			
				Xombie Master said:
			
		

> There's a thin line between whining and anger.  I express anger pretty much all the time, as it's the purest of emotions.  The thing is, when people agree with your point, they say you're right to be "angry".  When they're wrong, and you're right, they say your just "whining".
> A whiner won't admit they are wrong.  An angry person can resist being a whiner by giving in when they make a mistake.




I disagree.  I can deconstruct just about everything you've put down, but that would be hijacking the thread a tad too much.  

Instead I'll say that expressing anger a tremendous deal on a forum only proves the point that those who stay away would want to make.  A forum shouldn't be for either "anger" or "whining" to begin with.  After all, the term itself referrs more to debate than any emotional state.  Debate has almost nothing to do with emotion when done properly, even if you happen to disagree with whoever you're debating with.  Arguing on a venue such as this is worthless, considering that few people honestly, deeply care about what someone they've never met thinks enough to take anything they say into real consideration.  

So ultimately, I appreciate that I can debate a good deal more than argue on EN World, but it's not without people who take things personally and make a discussion an argument.  Going back to my previous post, that's just what happens with anonymity.


----------



## Shemeska

BigFreekinGoblinoid said:
			
		

> Like what? Just curious, no judgments here. I learned not to judge people back when I turned 83 back in the 70's ...




I've found that there's a slightly different approach taken to the game between myself and a lot of folks who started the game in earlier editions. I didn't start till 3e was out, and so I have that forming my initial exposure to the game, plus subsequent adoration of some of the best material from 2e. In my experience, I've found that I tend to not always see eye to eye with those who started out in 1e, and especially those who started in 1e and had a seriously negative reaction to 2e.

That isn't bad or wrong, we're just on totally different sides of the stage on some topics very often it seems.

I can give some generalizations about that different approach I see if you want.


----------



## Henry

EricNoah said:
			
		

> No!! There's only one universal truth, and if others are too stupid or weak to see it, then they must be driven away!!




Frell You! Buzz off, Noah!

Someone, hold me.


----------



## reveal

Henry said:
			
		

> Frell You! Buzz off, Noah!
> 
> Someone, hold me.


----------



## Bastoche

Acquana said:
			
		

> I disagree.  I can deconstruct just about everything you've put down, but that would be hijacking the thread a tad too much.
> 
> Instead I'll say that expressing anger a tremendous deal on a forum only proves the point that those who stay away would want to make.  A forum shouldn't be for either "anger" or "whining" to begin with.  After all, the term itself referrs more to debate than any emotional state.  Debate has almost nothing to do with emotion when done properly, even if you happen to disagree with whoever you're debating with.  Arguing on a venue such as this is worthless, considering that few people honestly, deeply care about what someone they've never met thinks enough to take anything they say into real consideration.
> 
> So ultimately, I appreciate that I can debate a good deal more than argue on EN World, but it's not without people who take things personally and make a discussion an argument.  Going back to my previous post, that's just what happens with anonymity.




Debating about trivial manners is what I would define as "whinning". For example, having a newbie post his 1000th level character and yet having an 8 pages long "debate". That's whiners arguing IMO.

I do not go on many RPG related forums. I could count 3 of them, 2 of which I barely participate in. The other forums I go to are about other subjects. Among all the forums I go to, ENworld is by far the "whiniest"


----------



## BigFreekinGoblinoid

Shemeska said:
			
		

> I've found that there's a slightly different approach taken to the game between myself and a lot of folks who started the game in earlier editions. I didn't start till 3e was out, and so I have that forming my initial exposure to the game, plus subsequent adoration of some of the best material from 2e. In my experience, I've found that I tend to not always see eye to eye with those who started out in 1e, and especially those who started in 1e and had a seriously negative reaction to 2e.
> 
> That isn't bad or wrong, we're just on totally different sides of the stage on some topics very often it seems.
> 
> I can give some generalizations about that different approach I see if you want.




You mean the "Diaglo Syndrome"? I think I know what you mean, but I'd bet the people with striking differences other then just nostalgic memories are in the minority.


----------



## andargor

HeapThaumaturgist said:
			
		

> Second is pretty much the entirety of the Rules forum.  While occassionally a useful place to stop by, it's generally ... whizzing contests between wanna-be pundits, to be honest.  Simple rules questions turn into proclamations issued from on high by volatile personalities and 8+ page arguments about the most minute trivialities.  If MY first encounter with ENWorld had been on the Rules forum, I'd probably have never come back, based just on the vitriol.




I find this thread interesting, especially the opinions about the Rules forum. That's where I hang 95% of the time. And 4.5% of the time in the Software & Computers forum.

I actually enjoy the Rules forum. Even as a (very) long time gamer, I like to discover new things about the game. I'm still learning now. And I take my role as our group's rule lawyer very seriously. Yes, some people take that as a negative.

But my experience, at least, has been that it frees our DM from the nitty-gritty that can slow down the game so he can concentrate on the story. I don't argue with him, I just tell him what are his options and what is the most correct interpretation according to the posters here. And he makes up his mind, if necessary implementing a house rule on the spot if it makes sense to him and his campaign. I'm an objective resource he can count on, and in turn EN World is my inspiration.

I don't therefore mind the occasional heated debates, which are for the most part civil. It shows that the rules aren't fixed and in many cases not very clear. The "Smackdown" threads are actually very useful, so that "legal" combinations that can ruin a campaign are house ruled out early on.

So debates on the "most minute trivialities" have actually helped us have more fun games. 

There are different forums for different people, and we are all looking for different things here. Some people like Rules, some House Rules, some SH, some General, etc. I find that we each have our personal tastes with respect to the game.

Andargor


----------



## Xombie Master

> I disagree. I can deconstruct just about everything you've put down, but that would be hijacking the thread a tad too much.



Okay,
I say most things with humor in mind.  I don't get on a forum to get angry, nor do I advocate that anger need be a regular feeling on said medium.
My point is that when those "heated discussions" do arise, the people who are willing to admit when they're wrong, are the ones who stick around.  I've never seen a single poster leave saying, "Well, you proved me wrong I can admit that, but I'm not posting here anymore."


----------



## Acquana

Bastoche said:
			
		

> Debating about trivial manners is what I would define as "whinning". For example, having a newbie post his 1000th level character and yet having an 8 pages long "debate". That's whiners arguing IMO.
> 
> I do not go on many RPG related forums. I could count 3 of them, 2 of which I barely participate in. The other forums I go to are about other subjects. Among all the forums I go to, ENworld is by far the "whiniest"




Again, I don't really hang out in Rules.  But I gather it happens a lot there from this thread.  -_-;;  I suppose I was thinking on it as a more general sense of whining beyond roleplaying itself.  

But I guess if lots of people can debate about even a rule, then that's they're subject of debate.  I know I would be frustrated by debates about that kind of thing ... But that's because I really, really don't care about the rules to begin with.  If other people can ... I guess that's their "thing."


----------



## Rel

My usage of the ENWorld forums has certainly changed over the years but I've always seemed to be able to find a "sweet spot" for where I am in relation to the community.

I started almost exclusively hanging in the Rules forum because when I first came here I had a very poor grasp of 3E (it had just come out a few months prior).  I found the Rules forum an almost endless wealth of information and clarification.

As time went on I got a far better grasp of the rules and began to see many of the same rules being rehashed over and over so I shifted to General.  I spent almost all of my time there for the next couple of years reading about the different philosophies on gaming held by the various posters there.  I rarely dabbled into the Off Topic forum much.

After meeting many folks here in person at the NC Game Days and at GenCon, I felt a far stronger sense of community and have posted much more in Off Topic than I ever have before.  I find that the length and seriousness of my posts has declined a bit but I'm not sure that's a bad thing and I can still add substantive content to the occasional thread in General when I'm in the mood.

Through it all I've frequented the Story Hour thread and I've always found folks there to be very supportive and constructive.

I suspect everybody is going to have a different experience with the boards based on what is helpful and appealing to them in general.  But I think there is little doubt that this is a far friendlier and more cordial place than is typical for an internet message board.


----------



## Phaedrus

I lurk more than post, but I love EN World, and don't see it as overly whiny. The flame wars here are much more polite than what I see elsewhere. I like the "Eric's Grandma" rule and think it makes EN World a very friendly place. Even when we disagree with one another, for the most part I see it as civil and (largely) adult. And when it gets out of hand, the moderators and members handle it well.

In some weird, geeky way I feel like I know a lot of you guys (and gals), even though we've never met. I'll stop now b/c I'm getting verklempt.


----------



## mythusmage

Sometimes people disagree about things that don't bother you, doesn't hurt you. Sometimes people need help with something you couldn't care less about, doesn't hurt you. Sometimes people get passionate about something, doesn't mean they're being whiny. You want whiny, try an over stimulated 7 year old at bedtime.

A thread starts getting you riled, walk away. You don't have to stay. 'Sides, you can always report a post to the mods. 

Oh, and if the thought of people at ENWorld making fun of your stupidity bothers you, stop being stupid.


----------



## andargor

mythusmage said:
			
		

> Oh, and if the thought of people at ENWorld making fun of your stupidity bothers you, stop being stupid.




Best advice I've read today! I'll try that. 

Andargor


----------



## Hussar

mythusmage said:
			
		

> Oh, and if the thought of people at ENWorld making fun of your stupidity bothers you, stop being stupid.




Lol.  Hey, wait, I resemble that remark.    

Recently I got to participate in a rather lengthy discussion about whether or not 3e rules stripped power away from the DM.  Got my face handed to me rather succinctly a couple of times by various posters.  Got annoyed, went back, reread, tried again, made a couple of points, had a great time.  Sure, the topic may seem trivial, but a number of really interesting points came out of that thread (at least interesting to me) and it really illustrated the different mentalities that many DM's have about the game. 

At no point was anyone really insulting.  No one went aggro on anyone else particularly.  People were very vocal in their positions (including myself) and certainly putting a fair bit of effort into the discussion, but, then again, isn't that what a forum is for?  Putting an idea out there and letting it get beaten around until it falls over?  Heck, I thought it was great.  We even came to some points of concensus after a while.  

On any forum I've ever been on before, after about the third page of posts, there really isn't any poing anymore.  People simply entrench into their ideas and refuse to budge.  Here, there was some pretty decent give and take between posters.  I don't know about anyone else, but I was very impressed.


----------



## Plane Sailing

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> And I can't say I recall ever seeing negative postings in the Story Hour forum, but I've only read maybe a dozen or so threads there.




Hey, I'll accept even negative postings in my Story Hour!

How desperate can I be?


----------



## KingOfChaos

I can say that one of the reasons I don't post at the actual forums here (and at RPG.Net) more often is that there are simply too many people here at EN World and I feel I can't actually get a word in edge wise on most subjects because I don't have 10,000+ posts or that any of my posts really make a difference since 50 replies crop up right after mine and most people can be bothered to read that much.  I feel lost in a sea of people, in other words.  There is no intimacy of a community here, just a busy street like you'd see during rush hour in New York City.  Its pretty overwhelming, actually.  So instead I stick to being a Newshound where I feel I have an actual positive effect on the community as whole by providing the site with content.

That being said, I love EN World for what it does...provides me with all the latest gaming/fantasy/scifi news.


----------



## Henry

KingOfChaos said:
			
		

> ...I feel I can't actually get a word in edge wise on most subjects because I don't have 10,000+ posts or that any of my posts really make a difference since 50 replies crop up right after mine and most people can be bothered to read that much.




Heck, I have 10,000+ posts here, and people mostly STILL don't listen to what I have to say, unless it's something official. Sometimes, not even then!


----------



## reveal

Henry said:
			
		

> Heck, I have 10,000+ posts here, and people mostly STILL don't listen to what I have to say, unless it's something official. Sometimes, not even then!




That's because we're all giggling about what's under your kilt.


----------



## Truth Seeker

jaerdaph said:
			
		

> I think everyone should visit "off topic" first just to see what a great bunch of kind and caring people hang out here.




Hmm, it should be renamed the Care Heart  forum, to that effect.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Henry said:
			
		

> Heck, I have 10,000+ posts here, and people mostly STILL don't listen to what I have to say, unless it's something official. Sometimes, not even then!




I listen, I LISTEN!!!!


----------



## Truth Seeker

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Hey, I'll accept even negative postings in my Story Hour!
> 
> How desperate can I be?




I will start...type less


----------



## Truth Seeker

EricNoah said:
			
		

> No!! There's only one universal truth, and if others are too stupid or weak to see it, then they must be driven away!!




Yo dude...where is your Icon, you are not EN without an Icon?


----------



## Truth Seeker

Shemeska said:
			
		

> I've always seen Enworld as less likely to have whiners than other forums. It's partially that Enworld isn't swamped with the horde of 11 year olds  that the WotC forums tend to be flooded with; Enworld's community is more mature and more mellowed for a variety of reasons. There's also a drawback perhaps in that, with a community that is about 10 years older than me, but it's outweighed by being less whiny.




Pssst....we beat them down, befoe they get here.


----------



## DaveMage

reveal said:
			
		

> That's because we're all giggling about what's under your kilt.




That is so wrong...


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard

DaveMage said:
			
		

> That is so wrong...



 Is there anything that reveal says that isn't disturbing and/or wrong?


----------



## Rel

Hussar said:
			
		

> Recently I got to participate in a rather lengthy discussion about whether or not 3e rules stripped power away from the DM.





For the record, it doesn't.


----------



## andargor

Henry said:
			
		

> Heck, I have 10,000+ posts here, and people mostly STILL don't listen to what I have to say, unless it's something official. Sometimes, not even then!




And you are...?



Andargor


----------



## MerricB

On General, there are a dedicated core of "I hate 3.5e"/"I hate Wizards"/"I hate 3e" posters. I'm slowly adding them to my ignore lists, and I really wish that would also mean they couldn't see my posts.

Most of the people around here are good people, but there are a few I'd rather like to see gone.

Cheers!


----------



## Quasqueton

> On General, there are a dedicated core of "I hate 3.5e"/"I hate Wizards"/"I hate 3e" posters. I'm slowly adding them to my ignore lists, and I really wish that would also mean they couldn't see my posts.
> 
> Most of the people around here are good people, but there are a few I'd rather like to see gone.



When I say this, I'm told I'm just paranoid.

The weakness of the ignore list is that it doesn't actually remove the offending material. When someone comes and pees in the community sandbox, it doesn't help to just turn your back on them.

Quasqueton


----------



## Belen

MerricB said:
			
		

> On General, there are a dedicated core of "I hate 3.5e"/"I hate Wizards"/"I hate 3e" posters. I'm slowly adding them to my ignore lists, and I really wish that would also mean they couldn't see my posts.
> 
> Most of the people around here are good people, but there are a few I'd rather like to see gone.
> 
> Cheers!




Yep.  There is a growing trend in that direction.  It is annoying.  I do not mind criticism of D20, but there are more and more off-color remarks that are simplely meant as insults these days.


----------



## Belen

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> When I say this, I'm told I'm just paranoid.
> 
> The weakness of the ignore list is that it doesn't actually remove the offending material. When someone comes and pees in the community sandbox, it doesn't help to just turn your back on them.
> 
> Quasqueton




No, you're not just paranoid, although sometimes you tend to dismiss valid criticism about 3e out of hand.


----------



## diaglo

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> No, you're not just paranoid, although sometimes you tend to dismiss valid criticism about 3e out of hand.



perhaps too it is style. when Merric says it he doesn't use words like " piss in sandbox "


----------



## Quasqueton

Sometimes the border between:







> off-color remarks that are simplely meant as insults



and







> valid criticism about 3e



is really blurry. A skilled troll plays in that blurred area. And polite and good intentioned folks can debate the border forever without ever really agreeing on its proper placement.

Quasqueton


----------



## William Ronald

It seems to me that the boards have become somewhat more argumentative of late.  I think that this may be a cyclical event, or may be one of the side effects of having a growing community.

For myself, I think the best I can do is to try to respond in a polite and respectful manner to disagreements.  Sometimes, new members of a community can learn from other members who can serve as models.  I know that the rules thread is posted in each forum, but perhaps there might be a larger discussion about some of the issues that people have raised in this thread.  I think we need to try to keep EN World a place where people feel free to express their opinions. At the same time, I think we need to remember that even if we strongly disagree with another poster, we should give that person the same respect that we wish for ourselves.

I admit that some threads can become very heated.  I think that that we have to realize that many of the disagreements are over matters of taste.  For example, I cannot in all honesty say that one set of rules on magic is  _inherently_  better than another set of rules, let alone more realistic.  What I can in all honesty say is that I believe a given set of rules works better for my game than another set, or that I like certain aspects of a rule set for various reasons.  In contrast, saying that something is horrible -- without explaining the reasons behind the statement -- tells me very little as someone reading a thread.   Similarly, attacking someone else does not really give me any information on a topic.  It does tend to make me more skeptical of what someone is stating, as I think it is more important to evaluate the quality of someone's ideas than make personal attacks.  (In the cases where I disagree strongly with someone, it is usually over ideas.  Personal attacks tend to cause valid points to be ignored, and are a sign to me that it might be a good idea to contact a moderator.)

I don't think any single rule set can please everyone.  We all have our indiividual tastes as gamers.  However, we can perhaps realize that there is a difference between objective facts (for example, citing errors in a print run) and subjective opinions (such as Company X is greedy and its leaders should be tarred and feathered.)  We all have our own opinions and experiences.  However, I think we benefit by sharing these opinions and experiences.  I think that a good dialogue requires mutual respect and effort to try to understand different view points.  Even if we continue to hold the same views, we can at least understand how someone else can have a different viewpoint.


I think that if we want this to be a friendly online community, we need to work at it.  One thing that we can try to remember that someone we disagree with is not necessarily an enemy.  I don't want to see people feel afraid to post or feel that their opinions will automatically be discarded by their fellow posters.


----------



## Crothian

Its cool to not like Wizards.  A few years ago it was cool to not like Fast Forward Entertainment.  Most people are just doing it because they see others doing it and getting away with it. And then they go home and use the books that they insult.


----------



## jdrakeh

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> "I don't care to read it because its just a bunch whiners arguing."
> 
> Do you think there's any truth in that statement? How do you think non-regulars, or new visitors see this place?




The truth of the matter is that _any place_ where passionate hobbyists of any kind meet, there are going to be some differences of opinion and arguments will ensue.


----------



## the Jester

Though there are occasionally whiny threads (or posters, for that matter), on the whole I think ENWorld is full of reasoned discussion/debate than anything else.

As for story hour threads- I've seen one thread go down in flames due to argument between the dm and the players, and I've asked one of my player to edit a post he made in one of my threads that struck me as, hm, sort of an attack shortly after that one went down because I didn't want to see one of my SH threads die due to vitriol.  One thread plus one post... and none of the posts involved "yer gAmne is 5toopid" type comments.  

I think the SH forum is the 'safest' place to post on ENWorld.


----------



## Joshua Randall

MerricB said:
			
		

> On General, there are a dedicated core of "I hate 3.5e"/"I hate Wizards"/"I hate 3e" posters. I'm slowly adding them to my ignore lists



Dude, can you PM me that list? Seriously.


----------



## jgbrowning

This Thread: A buncha whiners whining about how they're not whining or whining?

The head 'plodes!   

joe b.


----------



## Legildur

andargor said:
			
		

> I find this thread interesting, especially the opinions about the Rules forum. That's where I hang 95% of the time. And 4.5% of the time in the Software & Computers forum.
> 
> I actually enjoy the Rules forum. Even as a (very) long time gamer, I like to discover new things about the game. I'm still learning now. And I take my role as our group's rule lawyer very seriously. Yes, some people take that as a negative.



I'm with Andargar in this.  I lurk (and post occasionally) on the Rules thread almost exclusively for the same reasons.  And dabble in Playing the Game and Story Hour (mostly just Piratecat's stuff due to time).  But I do pick up some interesting threads via the 'latest forum topics' hit list on the front page (such as this thread in Meta).

Yeah, the quality of debate in the Rules forum has declined over recent times.  I've been around these boards for a while now and and have only seen a handful of posts I thought were inappropriate, but only one poster whose face I would have bloodied had the comments been made face-to-face.  I don't bother with the ignore list for those immature enough to resort to insults or simply spend their time whining as I'm quite capable of reading over stuff I'm not interested in.  Besides, I don't think anyone posts crap all the time - they can still provide some useful comments on occasions.

I have seen a number of quite heated debates on the Rules forum, but I've been pleased with the maturity of responses in the bulk of cases.

I only use EnWorld, as the boards have been useful and kind in the whole over the years.  I've heard lots of bad things about the Wizards boards, but haven't really tested it as I get everything I need at EnWorld.

Long live EnWorld!


----------



## Rystil Arden

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> This Thread: A buncha whiners whining about how they're not whining or whining?
> 
> The head 'plodes!
> 
> joe b.



 Well, since whining about whining would probably be called metawhining, the subforum choice is highly appropriate


----------



## mythusmage

Henry said:
			
		

> Heck, I have 10,000+ posts here, and people mostly STILL don't listen to what I have to say, unless it's something official. Sometimes, not even then!




After your treatment of Eleanor of Acquataine I am not surprised.


----------



## Henry

mythusmage said:
			
		

> After your treatment of Eleanor of Aquitaine I am not surprised.




_Psst - wrong Henry - about 400 years my senior..._


----------



## diaglo

Henry said:
			
		

> _Psst - wrong Henry - about 400 years my senior..._





but aren't you the Missing Link? Lancelot

bet you never heard that one before


----------



## genshou

MerricB said:
			
		

> On General, there are a dedicated core of "I hate 3.5e"/"I hate Wizards"/"I hate 3e" posters. I'm slowly adding them to my ignore lists, and I really wish that would also mean they couldn't see my posts.
> 
> Most of the people around here are good people, but there are a few I'd rather like to see gone.
> 
> Cheers!



*MerricB*:

I'm very vocal about my hatred of 3.5 .  To sate my curiosity, have I ended up on your ignore list?


----------



## johnsemlak

I've seen several references to the rules forum being the thickest hive of mindless bickering on EN World.  I don't post there much except when I want help on specific issues, so I have a hard time understanding how the RUles forum could be such a heated place.

To illustrate this, let me put forward two hypothetical (note--not typical) conversations, one in the rules forum and one in general:

*RULES FORUM:*

Poster 1: How many HP does a Level 1 Fighter with a 14 con have?
Poster 2: 13 HP.
Poster 3: No, it's 11 HP.
Poster 2: No, you're wrong, it's 13.
Poster 3: No I'm rigth, it's 11.  You're wrong.
Poster 1: (_scratches head)_
Poster 2: I am sure I'm right.  Let's check the SRD.
* * *
Poster 2: Well, it's actually 12.
Poster 3: Yes, that's correct.
Poster 1: Thanks everyone.
Poster 2: You're welcome, and sorry POSTER 3.
Poster 3: No, I'm sorry.  My fault.
Poster 2: My fault too.  Peace and smiles.
Poster 3: Ditto.  
Poster 4: So how many HP does a level 1 Wizard have with an 8 CON?
Poster 2:  I think it's 4.
Poster 3: No, I think it's 2.
Poster 2: I think i'm right and you're wr-; Um, let's check the SRD...


*GENERAL FORUM*

Poster 1: Balance is more important than flavor.
Poster 2: No, Flavor is more important than balance.
Poster 1: No, Balance is more important.  Unbalanced games are discouraging for players.
Poster 2: No, flavor is more important.  Balance makes games stale and boring.
Poster 1: No, I'm RIGHT.
Poster 2: No, I"m RIGHT.

* * *

Poster 1: I'M RIGHT.
Poster 2: YOU'RE WRONG.
Poster 1: YOU'RE WRONG.
Poster 2: I'M WRONG
Poster 1: I'M WRONG
Poster 2: (_chuckles_) Gotcha!
Poster 3: OD&D (1974) is the on-
Everyone: Shut Up!
Poster 1: I'm Right


----------



## Rystil Arden

> I've seen several references to the rules forum being the thickest hive of mindless bickering on EN World. I don't post there much except when I want help on specific issues, so I have a hard time understanding how the RUles forum could be such a heated place.
> 
> To illustrate this, let me put forward two hypothetical (note--not typical) conversations, one in the rules forum and one in general:



The worst threads in the rules forum for arguments are the ones when Wizards puts out a FAQ or Rules of the Game article that is patently wrong and contradicts itself and the core books.  Half the people will say that it makes it right if they say it on the website, even though those two features are supposed to be clarifications.  The other half will say that you should ignore those features.


----------



## MerricB

genshou said:
			
		

> *MerricB*:
> 
> I'm very vocal about my hatred of 3.5 .  To sate my curiosity, have I ended up on your ignore list?




I'm sorry. Did someone post? 

No, not yet. Most of the people on my list will post to derail topics with their hatred of 3.5e.

Cheers!


----------



## genshou

MerricB said:
			
		

> I'm sorry. Did someone post?
> 
> No, not yet. Most of the people on my list will post to derail topics with their hatred of 3.5e.
> 
> Cheers!



My hat of 35. know NO limit! 

Seriously, though, I'm glad to hear that.  I never post about my dislike of 3.5 to derail a thread, only to alleviate someone's stress with a specific 3.5 mechanic by saying "You know, the 3.0 rules worked like this, and 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it.'"  I first used this maxim when looking at 3.5 Jump vs. 3.0, and it stuck.  Kinda like *diaglo* and OD&D, except I don't have the absolute fanaticism.  On topic with this thread, has anyone seen my hatred of 3.5 as *whining*?


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## Henry

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Poster 1: I'M RIGHT.
> Poster 2: YOU'RE WRONG.
> Poster 1: YOU'RE WRONG.
> Poster 2: I'M WRONG
> Poster 1: I'M WRONG
> Poster 2: (_chuckles_) Gotcha!
> Poster 3: OD&D (1974) is the on-
> Everyone: Shut Up!
> Poster 1: I'm Right




Ah, the mark of a person who's been here a while.


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## Joshua Randall

The problem with the Rules forum is that the debates there seldom stick the rules. Someone will ask a rules question and instead of getting an answer (or even multiple interpretive answers if there are ambiguous rules), the thread will turn into a shouting match over who is right, and then devolve into house rules.

Rules has fewer whiners, but more arguing, than General.


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## andargor

Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> The problem with the Rules forum is that the debates there seldom stick the rules. Someone will ask a rules question and instead of getting an answer (or even multiple interpretive answers if there are ambiguous rules), the thread will turn into a shouting match over who is right, and then devolve into house rules.




And I even started a thread about it! 

Andargor


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## Dinkeldog

I made a post at Nothingland a while ago that describes my position on the Rules forum:



> Can anyone see why I view the Rules forum at ENWorld to be the same as the politics forums here? In both cases you have camps where people base their reputations on how many people agree with them. You rarely get an airing of viewpoints and rational debate. Instead you have people spouting inflexible positions afraid that if they're ever perceived as "wrong" that they will never be right again; that there is somehow a guru status and there can only be one per board. So we have people setting up pecking orders and screaming at each other over the One True Way and establishing who they hate forever because they apply fire resistance before fire vulnerability and vice versa.




There's one other problem related to this.  It's that occasionally there's contradiction in the Rules (they don't obey the mathematical Completeness Theorem--in true math teacher style, I leave your consideration of that as an exercise for the reader.  ).

Once upon a time things worked smoothly in Rules where you could say, "These are the rules as written, and I interpret that to mean x."  Now, any time you insert the, "I interpret that to mean x," part, there are people ready to jump on you claiming that you're devolving into house rules.  Since I was around for the House Rules forum's development, I can say that it's purpose wasn't intended to be for people that wanted to state how they interpreted ambiguous or contradictory written rules.  House Rules was intended to divert the deluge of, "This is my alt [insert one of Ranger/Sorcerer/Paladin] what do you think?" and "I want to introduce this new prestige class, what do you think?"  

The Rules forum, then, was used to discussed the rules and how to use the rules in play.  This includes discussion on specific rules and which of several contradictory readings might be the most useful.  To add to the confusion, I can always invoke "Rule 0" and any "house rule" on how to interpret a particular Rule becomes a "Rule-as-written," including a literal reading.    

My opinion and moderating philosophy is this, then:  So long as discussion is progressing without hostility (overt and covert, and please leave your baggage from Thread A at the door--we're now discussing Thread B), and somewhere someone at least attempts, "This is the literal wording from the SRD/PHB/DMG/etc.," we're doing all right.  The biggest problem is the overt and covert hostility and baggage being carried from Thread A and Thread B.  It doesn't have to be this way.  Hypersmurf and I, for example, frequently disagree on interpretation, and somehow don't feel a need to bash each other, refer to each other by name or in code, or the like.  My greatest hope for that forum is that, especially for non-native (American) English speakers learning English or dealing with translations, the Rules forum might provide some clarity to what a consensus of people think is the literal meaning of a given Rule and perhaps its intent.  

If we could get beyond the baggage and the condescension because Poster A last time misread something so he couldn't *possibly* ever be right, we'd be a lot further along.  And Poster A and Poster B might discover there is a lot of common ground without needing to bicker about past battles lost.  Besides, as DM, I'm ultimately right about any ruling at my table, and you, as player, have the ultimate right to pick up and leave my table.  If a DM consistently rules in ways that make his players upset, he or she is quite likely to find themselves with no players.

Wow, that's a lot more than I intended at the beginning of this.  Hope it helps, though.


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## Cheiromancer

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> Wow, that's a lot more than I intended at the beginning of this.  Hope it helps, though.




Very illuminating.  It should be part of the Rules Forum FAQ, methinks.


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## diaglo

Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> Very illuminating.  It should be part of the Rules Forum FAQ, methinks.



but being part of the FAQ would that make it "official"


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## reveal

diaglo said:
			
		

> but being part of the FAQ would that make it "official"




Only if that's your interpretation.


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## Rel

I am down with what Dinkledog is saying.  Totally.


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