# Doctor Who 2007: The Sound of Drums



## delericho (Jun 23, 2007)

The Master is Prime Minister, aliens have contacted Earth, and things are about to get really, really bad.

This episode felt like they'd taken all of my deepest fears (the full power of society levelled against the innocent, subliminal control, powerlessness in general), and put them up on the screen. It was horrible. It was awesome.

The good:

John Simm is really impressive in the role.
The interplay between the Doctor and the Master.
The reactions of the characters were always very human.


Spoiler



We learned a lot about how the Master came back, how the Master came to be, how the Time War ended. And we saw a whole lot about Gallifrey.





Spoiler



The Master has jelly babies!


Once again, we're left with: and hpw do they get out of _this_ one?

The bad:

The escape from the end of the universe felt anti-climactic.
I _really_ hated the Americans as depicted in this episode. 



Spoiler



In fact, I cheered when the President was killed. Sorry.
Sadly, not a big Doctor Who/Torchwood crossover - the Torchwood team have been sent off on-mission.



Answered Questions (major spoilers):



Spoiler



The Master was resurrected by the Time Lords to fight in the Time War.
They escape from the end of the universe using Jack's broken time gauntlet.
Saxon hides by embedding a signal in the mobile phone network. Of course, this leads to the question: could other Time Lords have done the same?



Unanswered Questions:

Why did they mention Utopia, and go through so much in the previous episode, just to drop it? Will they be revisiting this? (I still think Utopia could be Gallifrey.)
Who are these aliens? What do they want?

And, of course, how do they get out of _this_ one?


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## Plane Sailing (Jun 23, 2007)

delericho said:
			
		

> Who are these aliens? What do they want?




I notice that there are '6 billion' aliens... plus Saxon's comments about 'every farmer, every teacher, every lorry driver; which made it sound as if there is one alien for every person on the planet.

That must be significant!


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## dpmcalister (Jun 23, 2007)

Aside from the lame escape from Utopia, this is the best Doctor Who episode since the who thing started again with Christopher Eccelstone!


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## Huw (Jun 23, 2007)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> I notice that there are '6 billion' aliens... plus Saxon's comments about 'every farmer, every teacher, every lorry driver; which made it sound as if there is one alien for every person on the planet.
> 
> That must be significant!




My theory: They're the "souls" of humans from some parallel universe, possibly the one from season 2. Mrs Saxon is somehow a refugee from said universe, which is why she's happy to go along with it.

Anyone good at anagrams. What could toclafane be?


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## sniffles (Jun 23, 2007)

I just finished watching it 5 minutes ago and I'm still waiting for my heart to stop pounding!!!


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## Pseudonym (Jun 24, 2007)

That was excellent.   

I really enjoy the new incarnation of the Master.  I do hope he sticks around for a while.  What a great villain.


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## evildmguy (Jun 24, 2007)

That was awesome!  

Loved the banter between them.  

(And I loved them using Roger Delgado's voice in the previous ep)  

I thought the whole thing was well done.  



Spoiler



"Thought you were going to say he was your secret brother or something."


  Priceless.

I only wish they could have spent lots more time with the history of the Doctor's planet.  *sigh*

edg


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## jhilahd (Jun 24, 2007)

Wow...
nice cliff hanger like last episode.
With only one more this season, I don't think I can wait until the next one.
This has just flown by so fast.


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## horacethegrey (Jun 24, 2007)

Well, aside from my dissatisfaction with which how this followed the previous episode, I thought this was a cracking good show!  

John Simm is fabulous! Love his take on this cheeky and maniacal Master, which provides a nice counterpoint to Tennant's cheeky and often manic Doctor. Oh, and let me just say they have great chemistry together, maybe not as good as when Jon Pertwee and Roger Delgado were playing them respectively, but still good nonetheless. I look forward to future confrontations between these two Time Lords with Tennant and Simm playing them.  

Rest of the episode felt a bit over the top, what with the Master gleefully abusing his power in office. But then that's to be expected with any episode written by RTD, but I still liked the subtle hints of menace he wrote in _Bad Wolf_ and _Army of Ghosts_. But still, at least it didn't border on camp so all in all I have no problem with it. 

As for the Toclafane, my theory is that they are actually Time Lords in stasis form (hence the pods) and the Master plans to turn Earth into a new Gallifrey. 

Oh and let me just say that those flashbacks to Gallifrey at it's height and those Time Lords  was just beautiful and awe inspiring.  Hope to see more of them in the future.

Anyway, looking forward to next week. Looks to me Martha get's her chance to shine much like Rose did, and hopefully this will put all the naysayers to shame.


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## Cthulhudrew (Jun 24, 2007)

Yes! Loved it- especially the Gallifrey flashbacks and some more insight into the Time War. Really wasn't expecting the answers we got- the Master's past, his resurrection, stuff about the Time War. Even enjoyed the Doctor and Master's banter about their chosen names. They put a lot of nice work into the old Gallifrey costumes, and had some nice scenery for the planet- hope this means that down the road we might even see a resurrection of the planet itself (although I'm suspect- with the Time Lords back, the Doctor won't have nearly as much hesitation about destroying the Master as he currently does.)

The TARDIS keys- did anyone else think "the Doctor's using Slartibartfast's S.E.P. field"?

Jack had some nice moments, which was cool. Simm did a great job, even though I did feel he was a bit too campy at some points (but then, I had the same feeling about Eccleston's Doctor at first, and he quickly turned into my second favorite actor in the role.)

You guys mentioned Utopia and the Toclafane- could the Toclafane be 



Spoiler



the souls of the humans from the end of the universe? The ones the Master/Professor sent off to "Utopia"? He sort of sneered at the thought of Utopia at the end of last week's episode, so maybe he had some idea of where he was sending them even with his memory loss.

My other thought was like Horace's- that they were the souls of the Time Lords themselves, somehow restored/brought back via the Toclafane by the Master. If so, that would certainly break the Doctor's hearts. I do wonder what would make them so murderous, though.


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## horacethegrey (Jun 24, 2007)

Well thanks for agreeing with me on that point Cthulhudrew. Cause for me it's the only conclusion that makes sense. Remember when the Doctor asked who the Toclafane were? He responded by saying:

*Master:* My dear Doctor, if I told you, both your hearts would break.

SPOILERS So in light of that, the Toclafane really must be Time Lords in some shape or form. Because now the Doctor is caught in a painful moral dilemma. Should he let the Master do as he will and allow the Toclafane to conquer the Earth, thus establishing a new race of Time Lords in place of the human race who are sure to be eradicated? Or should he save the human race and thus endure the emotional trauma once more of having destroyed his own people? That's a great scenario any which way you look at it.  

And remember, the next episode is called _Last of the Time Lords_, because when all is said and done I think the story will end with only the Doctor and the Master as the only Time Lords left once more.  SPOILERS

Course I could be wrong about this whole thing altogether and it might turn out all different, and I've just been talking out of my arse this whole time. :\


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## BobROE (Jun 24, 2007)

Great ep.

My only worry is that at the end of the next one that time/space will be reset and alot of what's happening will be undone.  I mean the Master's built a "Paradox Machine" which suggests to me that what's happening involves fiddling with time.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jun 25, 2007)

The Master’s capacity of treachery is bottomless. It is almost a compulsion with him. Even assuming the Toclafane are Gallifreians, or Time Lords, it would be out of character for him to simply bring them back. He is plotting something darker and crueler.


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## Cthulhudrew (Jun 25, 2007)

One thing I'm hoping they'll get into next week is- what's the Master's "wife's" deal? She talked about having made her decision long ago, but I'm just not quite sure what that means. She almost seemed regretful when that reporter woman was there, but now she's just kind of casually going along with things. Hm.


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## ddvmor (Jun 25, 2007)

This was a great episode.  Lots of fun.  Wasn't sure I was going to get on with Simm's Master at first, but once he 



Spoiler



offed the cabinet


 I was sold.  Excellent performance.

I'm a tiny bit disappointed with the speed with which the gang escaped their predicament at the end of the last episode, but it got them in the thick of the action nice and quickly.

Mostly, I'm left with with no clue how the story's gonna be resolved and I really, really, really want to to see the next episode.  Which is exactly what they want, damn them!


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 25, 2007)

It was pretty good but it has the camp and cheese that covers all of RTD writings.  I hope the end reveal is a good one. Why not let the Doc have a good ending and see the Time Lords return?  It doesn't have to really affect how the show plays out to a major degree other than removing the darkness the Doctor is carrying around, which I would be fine with. 

The Master needs his goatee.


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## sniffles (Jun 25, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> They put a lot of nice work into the old Gallifrey costumes, and had some nice scenery for the planet- hope this means that down the road we might even see a resurrection of the planet itself (although I'm suspect- with the Time Lords back, the Doctor won't have nearly as much hesitation about destroying the Master as he currently does.)



Since the Doctor has always hesitated to actually _destroy_ the Master, why would he change his mind if the Time Lords return?  

I liked everything about this episode. I thought it was clever how RTD made the audience think the Doctor and friends were in a terrible pickle at the end of 'Utopia', and then it turned out that was nothing and the real trouble was ahead of them.   

I loved the flashback scenes on Gallifrey. I think I was grinning like an idiot through that whole sequence. 

My only question is, why did 



Spoiler



Jack give his Vortex Manipulator to Martha? Why didn't he teleport out with her? I suppose he thinks he'll be better able to help the Doctor if he's still in the same location - after all, as far as we know, Jack's immortal. Hmm. I suspect I see a way for the Doctor to get his youth back...


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## Mallus (Jun 25, 2007)

Fantastic episode, marvelous. Loved Simm's portrayal of the Master, the flashback to a Flash Gordon-esque Gallifrey, complete with figures wearing the classic Time Lord costumes, the fact that U.N.I.T stole S.H.I.E.L.D's aerial aircraft carrier, the whole thing, really.

This season has been some of the most entertaining television in years.


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## Raven Crowking (Jun 25, 2007)

Huw said:
			
		

> My theory: They're the "souls" of humans from some parallel universe, possibly the one from season 2. Mrs Saxon is somehow a refugee from said universe, which is why she's happy to go along with it.
> 
> Anyone good at anagrams. What could toclafane be?




My theory is that the toclafane are the humans from Utopia.  Otherwise, I'm wondering what aliens would make the Doctor's hearts break.  There does seem something familiar about the voices they're using for them.......

Could they be the souls of Time Lords?

Could Mrs. Saxon be the Rani?

EDIT:  Of course, having now read through the thread, I see my ideas aren't as clever as I thought.  OTOH, I thought it was a great episode.  And I do agree that the Master should have his goatee.....    (I did like the flash of red lining on his coat at the airport....just that bit of old Master shining through!)


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## delericho (Jun 25, 2007)

sniffles said:
			
		

> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose (Jack) thinks he'll be better able to help the Doctor if he's still in the same location - after all, as far as we know, Jack's immortal. Hmm. I suspect I see a way for the Doctor to get his youth back...




Actually, I think the answer to that one is simpler than that: 



Spoiler



the Master aged the Doctor by reversing the polarity of the 'Regeneration Machine' from earlier in the season in his Laser Screwdriver. So, when they defeat their enemy, or perhaps as a key part of doing so, they'll get their hands on it, reverse the polarity again, and have at it. Sorted.


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## Pseudonym (Jun 25, 2007)

delericho said:
			
		

> Actually, I think the answer to that one is simpler than that:
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Spoiler



The whole aging thing seemed a rather odd think for him to do.  I thought that even without regenerating, Time Lords could go a few hundred years at least before old age set in.  Aging a Time Lord 100 years shouldn't have done anything besides giving him a little grey around the temples, certainly not turn him into a withered old man.


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## Fast Learner (Jun 25, 2007)

The Gallifreyan theory seems pretty unlikely to me.

Though...

Anyone recognize that DUM-DUM-DUM-DUM DUM-DUM-DUM-DUM DUM-DUM-DUM-DUM?

Maybe add DUMMMM-DUMMMM-[pause]-dum-dum to the end, and repeat?

Perhaps, say, from the beginning of _every single episode_?

Hmmm....


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 25, 2007)

Pseudonym said:
			
		

> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The whole aging thing seemed a rather odd think for him to do.  I thought that even without regenerating, Time Lords could go a few hundred years at least before old age set in.  Aging a Time Lord 100 years shouldn't have done anything besides giving him a little grey around the temples, certainly not turn him into a withered old man.




I agree.  A hundred should have been a thousand or something along those lines.


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## Raven Crowking (Jun 25, 2007)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I agree.  A hundred should have been a thousand or something along those lines.




Perhaps they were 100 _Gallifreyan_ years.    

Certainly, in _The Leisure Hive_, the 4th Doctor was aged far more and was far less affected.

RC


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## Cthulhudrew (Jun 25, 2007)

sniffles said:
			
		

> Since the Doctor has always hesitated to actually _destroy_ the Master, why would he change his mind if the Time Lords return?




He's not really hesitated in the past all that much- he didn't seem to be too reluctant when he torched the Master in _Planet of Fire_, and I don't recall him being terribly well disposed towards him in the Doctor Who movie (though it's been a long time since the sole time I actually watched that). 

The past two incarnations of the Doctor seem to be a bit more hard edged, as well. At the moment, it seems to me the only reason he wouldn't destroy the Master is because he will truly be alone if he does. If there are other Time Lords, that won't be the case.

Then again, the Doctor always has some unexpected moments of compassion (_Dalek_), so you may be right.



> My only question is, why did
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree with you, and had the same thought. 



Spoiler



It seems that Jack, with his access to Torchwood technology and information, would be more useful off the ship with Martha than on it.


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## JRR_Talking (Jun 25, 2007)

MARVELLOUS

fatal once
neat focal
a lone fact


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## Raven Crowking (Jun 25, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> He's not really hesitated in the past all that much- he didn't seem to be too reluctant when he torched the Master in _Planet of Fire_, and I don't recall him being terribly well disposed towards him in the Doctor Who movie (though it's been a long time since the sole time I actually watched that).





As the Master is being sucked into the Eye of Harmony, the Doctor says "Give me your hand!" and the Master says "Never!"

I wonder if the Master is the Doctor's son.  Therefore, Susan's father?


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## Raven Crowking (Jun 25, 2007)

JRR_Talking said:
			
		

> MARVELLOUS
> 
> fatal once
> neat focal
> a lone fact




a fetal con
a fecal ton


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## Cthulhudrew (Jun 25, 2007)

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> As the Master is being sucked into the Eye of Harmony, the Doctor says "Give me your hand!" and the Master says "Never!"




Ah, forgot about that. Like I said, I've pretty well blocked it out of my mind. 



> I wonder if the Master is the Doctor's son.  Therefore, Susan's father?




Don't think so- they seemed to pretty well move away from any notions of a blood relation between the Doctor and the Master in this episode, without actually spelling it out as such. The Doctor's dismissive "you watch too much television" remark seemed to dispel that idea, I thought.

(Also, the Doctor and the Master were classmates, which even with Time Lords seems like its unworkable if they are father and son. Brothers might have been the case, but again, see the Doctor's comments in this episode.)


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## Raven Crowking (Jun 25, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> (Also, the Doctor and the Master were classmates, which even with Time Lords seems like its unworkable if they are father and son. Brothers might have been the case, but again, see the Doctor's comments in this episode.)




Ah, yes, from _The Five Doctors_.

Still, think Mrs. Saxon is the Rani?  The Rani was always smarter than the Master, and better at hiding herself from the Doctor.


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## Morrus (Jun 25, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Don't think so- they seemed to pretty well move away from any notions of a blood relation between the Doctor and the Master in this episode, without actually spelling it out as such. The Doctor's dismissive "you watch too much television" remark seemed to dispel that idea, I thought.




Yeah, it was a direct in-joke response to the rumours.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jun 25, 2007)

The number six billion does seem important. I doubt there were that many Time Lords, as I don't think every Gallifreian was a Time Lord.

Maybe they are Teletubbies... hight of evolution and all that. Just think of it... Six Biiilllliiooooon Teletubbies! Mwa ha ha ha ha ha!


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## Raven Crowking (Jun 25, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> The number six billion does seem important. I doubt there were that many Time Lords, as I don't think every Gallifreian was a Time Lord.




In _The Sunmakers_, Time Lords are described as "the oligarchic rulers of the planet Gallifrey."  In _Invasion of Time_, the 4th Doctor says "There are men, women...even Time Lords dying out there!"


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## Cthulhudrew (Jun 25, 2007)

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> Still, think Mrs. Saxon is the Rani?  The Rani was always smarter than the Master, and better at hiding herself from the Doctor.




It's a theory, but actually- I was thinking she might be Romana. She seems kind of similar in temperament (well, except for aiding a megalomaniac), and her regret over throwing her lot in with him would thus be explainable.

(I don't think it probably will be her, but if the Toclafane do end up being Time Lords, then it could well be.)

I'm still leaning more towards the last humans going to Utopia, though. It truly would break the Doctor's heart that a) this is what became of them when he helped to send them off, and b) he will have to make a choice between either allowing the humans existing on modern Earth to die or destroying the last remnants of humanity from the future.


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## Pseudonym (Jun 25, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> It's a theory, but actually- I was thinking she might be Romana. She seems kind of similar in temperament (well, except for aiding a megalomaniac), and her regret over throwing her lot in with him would thus be explainable.




I didn't see it that way.  



Spoiler



It seemed that she was human enough, just under some sort of hypnotic suggestion, like when the Doctor asked Jack and Martha why they liked Saxon or what his campaign promises were.  She did seem to be on the verge of some realization, but snapped out of it when The Master came in to the room.


  Still though, it would be nice to see the return of some of the other Time Lords, especially given that 



Spoiler



the Time Lords were able to resurrect The Master to fight in the Time War, they could also have brought back the Meddling Monk, Warmaster and The Rani.


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## Felon (Jun 26, 2007)

Well, this episode contained one horrifying revelation that nobody's mentioned yet:



Spoiler



MARTHA HAS MAN-HANDS!!! The woman of my dreams has thicker callouses on her knuckles than I do. 

Oh, and Martha's mom really needs to get her eyebrows plucked. Those things are huge!



Anyway, I think John Simm is a good villain, but...he'll never be The Master to me. To me, the Master is menacing like Dr. Doom or Moriarty, not a capering Jokerish goofball.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 26, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Well, this episode contained one horrifying revelation that nobody's mentioned yet:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I have to agree.  I watched it again and there just isn't a Master type of vibe coming off him.  They are trying to make him too much like the Doctor.  As a big fan of the 7th season of Who with Pertwee and Delgado clashing every show I'm not getting into this that much.


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## horacethegrey (Jun 26, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Anyway, I think John Simm is a good villain, but...he'll never be The Master to me. To me, the Master is menacing like Dr. Doom or Moriarty, not a capering Jokerish goofball.



Uh... you do realize that he just regenerated no? So of course he'd be different from the Master you'd know, much like David Tennant's Tenth Doctor is different from Chris Eccleston's Ninth.

Besides, as I said before, the Master should be in essence the Doctor's dark reflection. So of course he'd be a manic and often cheeky type, just as the Tenth Doctor is often manic and cheeky as well.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 26, 2007)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> Uh... you do realize that he just regenerated no? So of course he'd be different from the Master you'd know, much like David Tennant's Tenth Doctor is different from Chris Eccleston's Ninth.
> 
> Besides, as I said before, the Master should be in essence the Doctor's dark reflection. So of course he'd be a manic and often cheeky type, just as the Tenth Doctor is often manic and cheeky as well.




Well other than the Doctor most Time Lords have control over their regenerations to a much larger degree than the Doctor who pretty much went in blind due to involuntary regeneration when his body was damaged.  Romana was able to control her regeneration to a very fine degree.

The Master is evil and dominating where the Doctor is good, they don't need the Master to try to do a cheap Doctor impression.


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## Fast Learner (Jun 26, 2007)

I was never much of a fan of the previous Masters, but love, love, love this one.


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## Felon (Jun 26, 2007)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> Uh... you do realize that he just regenerated no? So of course he'd be different from the Master you'd know, much like David Tennant's Tenth Doctor is different from Chris Eccleston's Ninth.



You do realize that when you're typing a post, you actually have as much time to compose your thoughts as you need before submitting it. Thus, there's no need to start off with "uh..." like you're trying to think of what to say. Please pass that on to all the other folks who do that. That'll make it one less pet peeve in my universe.  

I do appreciate what they were going for, but a spaz is not the ideal foil for another spaz, and that's evident here, because the Master's zany antics came at the expense of the Doctor's own puckishness. Notice how the Doctor stops being his manic self. He adopts a sober, brooding personality, he acts curt towards his companions, he loses his sense of humor, he never grins once. He becomes...The Batman!


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## horacethegrey (Jun 26, 2007)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Well other than the Doctor most Time Lords have control over their regenerations to a much larger degree than the Doctor who pretty much went in blind due to involuntary regeneration when his body was damaged.  Romana was able to control her regeneration to a very fine degree.



Like some _Who _fans, I take Romana's regeneration being cannon with a grain of salt. If you'll recall, Romana's change only happened because Mary Tamm became pregnant and she had to be replaced with Lalla Ward. Since it was so abrupt, the show's makers decided to play it for laughs. It was so silly that I can hardly count it as a regeneration altogether. Sorry, my suspension of disbelief only goes so far.  

Don't get me wrong, I find the scene quite funny, but in my mind regeneration is a process that Time Lords have very little control over. 



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> You do realize that when you're typing a post, you actually have as much time to compose your thoughts as you need before submitting it. Thus, there's no need to start off with "uh..." like you're trying to think of what to say. Please pass that on to all the other folks who do that. That'll make it one less pet peeve in my universe.



Sorry, but that's close to how I talk in person and I'm sticking to it.  



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> I do appreciate what they were going for, but a spaz is not the ideal foil for another spaz, and that's evident here, because the Master's zany antics came at the expense of the Doctor's own puckishness. Notice how the Doctor stops being his manic self. He adopts a sober, brooding personality, he acts curt towards his companions, he loses his sense of humor, he never grins once. He becomes...The Batman!



But the Master has always had that effect on the Doctor. This isn't a Dalek or a Cybermen that he can normally outsmart and ridicule for good measure. This is a fellow Time Lord who can match him in many ways, and hurt him in others. Why should he ease up against such an adversary?

Besides, everyone knows that the manic, happy go lucky Doctor is just one side of him. There's the darker part of his nature thats lonely, melancholy and oftentimes ruthless. The Family of Blood certainly saw that part of him, as did the lone Dalek in season 1. The Master is just one of latest to bring out this hidden side of the Doctor.


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## WizarDru (Jun 26, 2007)

Another possible anagram...

A Conflate (to meld, bring together)


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## Plane Sailing (Jun 26, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> You do realize that when you're typing a post, you actually have as much time to compose your thoughts as you need before submitting it. Thus, there's no need to start off with "uh..." like you're trying to think of what to say. Please pass that on to all the other folks who do that. That'll make it one less pet peeve in my universe.




Tough if it's a pet peeve of yours, because people are entitled to use whatever form of words they want in expressing their thoughts.

Don't tell other people how to post. Mods will take things up as and when it is necessary, thanks.


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## Raven Crowking (Jun 26, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> I'm still leaning more towards the last humans going to Utopia, though. It truly would break the Doctor's heart that a) this is what became of them when he helped to send them off, and b) he will have to make a choice between either allowing the humans existing on modern Earth to die or destroying the last remnants of humanity from the future.




Me too.  I just rewatched Utopia last night, and there are some things to suggest it.

(1)  The Master takes the data chip re:  Utopia with him.

(2)  The Paradox Engine.  What could be more paradoxical than future humans wiping out their ancestors?

(3)  The Toclafane talks about it being cold, and having to run.

(4)  It is said in Utpoia that there are diamonds in the sky.  Obviously, a time period with stars.


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## Raven Crowking (Jun 26, 2007)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> Like some _Who _fans, I take Romana's regeneration being cannon with a grain of salt. If you'll recall, Romana's change only happened because Mary Tamm became pregnant and she had to be replaced with Lalla Ward. Since it was so abrupt, the show's makers decided to play it for laughs. It was so silly that I can hardly count it as a regeneration altogether. Sorry, my suspension of disbelief only goes so far.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I find the scene quite funny, but in my mind regeneration is a process that Time Lords have very little control over.




Remember that we've never seen the Doctor regenerate under anything remotely close to ideal purposes, whereas Romana did so.  In _The War Games_ the 2nd Doctor claims that he has a "right" to choose his new appearance...clearly something he thought himself able to do.  In _The Christmas Invasion_, it is made clear that during the first 24 hours of a Time Lord's regeneration cycle there is a certain fluidity to their form (this has been a fan explaination for Romana's regeneration for a very long time), allowing the Doctor to regrow his lost hand.  Finally, in _Planet of the Spiders_ we do see one other Time Lord regenerate under fairly controlled circumstances.  And it is clear that K'anpo Rinpoche _chooses_ to become Cho Je.

So, overall, I'd say that there is more control possible than the Doctor ever gets to use, but the process is still a bit dodgy.

BTW, it was nice of them to give us a bit more of a classical Master (in _Utopia) before they regenerated him.  I also liked the flash of red lining on the Master's suitcoat at the airport in The Sound of Drums; a very nice melodramatic touch.

RC_


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## horacethegrey (Jun 26, 2007)

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> Remember that we've never seen the Doctor regenerate under anything remotely close to ideal purposes, whereas Romana did so.  In _The War Games_ the 2nd Doctor claims that he has a "right" to choose his new appearance...clearly something he thought himself able to do.  In _The Christmas Invasion_, it is made clear that during the first 24 hours of a Time Lord's regeneration cycle there is a certain fluidity to their form (this has been a fan explaination for Romana's regeneration for a very long time), allowing the Doctor to regrow his lost hand.  Finally, in _Planet of the Spiders_ we do see one other Time Lord regenerate under fairly controlled circumstances.  And it is clear that K'anpo Rinpoche _chooses_ to become Cho Je.
> 
> So, overall, I'd say that there is more control possible than the Doctor ever gets to use, but the process is still a bit dodgy.



Well, I've not seen _Planet of the Spiders_ yet, but I am familiar with the character of K'anpo Rinpoche. But I'll take your word for it that Kanpo was able to control his regeneration. One question though, was that scene at least treated seriously and not like Romana's regeneration?

Seriously though, even if a Time Lord had control over his regenerative process, could he actually have control over what type of personality he'd gain once it was done? We're talking about a living being changing it's entire physical makeup on a cellular level. That's bound to affect your mind any which way you look at it, what with a different brain structure and all. 

This is why I roll my eyes when people complain that the Master isn't acting like the Master of old. I can accept the fact that John Simm's portrayal won't be everyone's cup of tea. But please don't tell me that this isn't the Master he's playing. He IS the Master. He *regenerated*. If the Doctor can have different personalities during his ten incarnations, why can't his arch nemesis?


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## sniffles (Jun 26, 2007)

I've always thought that the Doctor, being someone who likes surprises and generally dislikes predictability, has deliberately eschewed his potential ability to exercise more control over his regenerative ability. 

And, as has been pointed out, he's usually not regenerating under the best of circumstances. 

This is true of the Master as well, at least in this instance. He'd 



Spoiler



just been shot, his mind was probably a bit muddled after having been disguised as a human for at least 17 years,


 and considering all the things that have happened to him in the past he's probably gone a bit mental. I think some inconsistencies in his personality are to be expected.  

I felt RTD did a good job of balancing the humorous aspect of the Master with his more sinister qualities. I always prefer a villain with a sense of humour to a pompous one.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 26, 2007)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> Well, I've not seen _Planet of the Spiders_ yet, but I am familiar with the character of K'anpo Rinpoche. But I'll take your word for it that Kanpo was able to control his regeneration. One question though, was that scene at least treated seriously and not like Romana's regeneration?
> 
> Seriously though, even if a Time Lord had control over his regenerative process, could he actually have control over what type of personality he'd gain once it was done? We're talking about a living being changing it's entire physical makeup on a cellular level. That's bound to affect your mind any which way you look at it, what with a different brain structure and all.
> 
> This is why I roll my eyes when people complain that the Master isn't acting like the Master of old. I can accept the fact that John Simm's portrayal won't be everyone's cup of tea. But please don't tell me that this isn't the Master he's playing. He IS the Master. He *regenerated*. If the Doctor can have different personalities during his ten incarnations, why can't his arch nemesis?




Yes it was quite serious, it was the 3rd Doc's final episode. 

And yes this is the Master, the only Master out right now.  For me he's just not a very good one, a typical example of the camp and weakness of RTD's writing.


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## Mallus (Jun 26, 2007)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> For me he's just not a very good one, a typical example of the camp and weakness of RTD's writing.



Is it just RTD's particular brand of camp that you don't like, because camp has always been a hallmark of the Docor Who experience (now that's a name for a cover band!), not to mention that the 'strength' of the writing over the years can best be described as a species of oddball charm.


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## Raven Crowking (Jun 26, 2007)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> Well, I've not seen _Planet of the Spiders_ yet, but I am familiar with the character of K'anpo Rinpoche. But I'll take your word for it that Kanpo was able to control his regeneration. One question though, was that scene at least treated seriously and not like Romana's regeneration?




Pretty much.    

In PoS, K'anpo and Cho-Je are both present.  When K'anpo regenerates, he merges into and becomes Cho-Je.  This concept was later used, in _Logopolis_ for the 4th Doctor's regeneration into the 5th (with the Watcher).



> Seriously though, even if a Time Lord had control over his regenerative process, could he actually have control over what type of personality he'd gain once it was done?




I doubt it.



> This is why I roll my eyes when people complain that the Master isn't acting like the Master of old. I can accept the fact that John Simm's portrayal won't be everyone's cup of tea. But please don't tell me that this isn't the Master he's playing. He IS the Master. He *regenerated*. If the Doctor can have different personalities during his ten incarnations, why can't his arch nemesis?




Well, the Master didn't exactly regenerate under controlled circumstances either, did he?


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jun 26, 2007)

Maybe regeneration is a skill. When it comes up the Time Lord makes a skill check. If he passes, then he gets to pick his new form. If he fails, then the GM selects the form or roles on a New Time Lord Body Table. And the Doctor didn't put any skill points in that, saving his points for things like all the knowledges, while Romana did put points into it. Maybe the Master felt having a little pointy beard had become gouche. Maybe while Time Traveling he saw "vote for" posters of Harold Saxon and chose to look like that.

And I still say what ever the Master has planned with the Toclafane will be steeped in bitter treachery against everyone involved.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 26, 2007)

Mallus said:
			
		

> Is it just RTD's particular brand of camp that you don't like, because camp has always been a hallmark of the Docor Who experience (now that's a name for a cover band!), not to mention that the 'strength' of the writing over the years can best be described as a species of oddball charm.




I guess, becuase you are right there is plenty of camp in the Doctor Who show from day 1. I just don't like how RTD writes stories, his plots are not very good IMO and when he does have a decent idea the execution is bad.


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## horacethegrey (Jun 26, 2007)

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> Well, the Master didn't exactly regenerate under controlled circumstances either, did he?



Even so, it doesn't change the fact that he regenerated and gained a new body and personality to go along with it. Remember, this is the first time anyone has seen the Master regenerate in the whole history of _Doctor Who_. Thus I consider all the Masters we've seen, from Roger Delgado to Derek Jacobi, to be the same incarnation. Simm truly is "the Master Reborn", since this is the first regeneration he's achieved in a long time.


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## Felon (Jun 26, 2007)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Tough if it's a pet peeve of yours, because people are entitled to use whatever form of words they want in expressing their thoughts.
> 
> Don't tell other people how to post. Mods will take things up as and when it is necessary, thanks.



That's a bit testy, Plane, especially for you. Do we have our perception filters set up to tune out sarcasm? The remark was not so much an imperative on how to post as it was a rejoinder to the derisive tone of starting a post with "uh...you _do_ realize..."

Indeed, even take literally, it was a polite request not a command.


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## horacethegrey (Jun 26, 2007)

There was no sarcasm or condescension in my reply to you Felon. I was simply trying to relate my opinion in the kindest manner possible. If you interpreted it as such, my apologies.


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## Felon (Jun 26, 2007)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> Seriously though, even if a Time Lord had control over his regenerative process, could he actually have control over what type of personality he'd gain once it was done? We're talking about a living being changing it's entire physical makeup on a cellular level. That's bound to affect your mind any which way you look at it, what with a different brain structure and all.



This isn't hard science, Horace. Exactly because regeneration is in essence doing something biologists would describe as impossible, it work any way the writer wants. As I've stated recently, this show is fantasy, complete with magic wands and wardrobes of teleportation, concealed behind a very thin disguise of science fiction. 



> This is why I roll my eyes when people complain that the Master isn't acting like the Master of old. I can accept the fact that John Simm's portrayal won't be everyone's cup of tea. But please don't tell me that this isn't the Master he's playing. He IS the Master. He *regenerated*. If the Doctor can have different personalities during his ten incarnations, why can't his arch nemesis?



I counter your roll of the eyes with a snort of my nostrils (or something like that). He's no Master. Portraying the character as a constant makes the character work. He's evolved into a foil for the Doctors--not just one Doctor, but whoever takes up the mantle. When I watched the first series, it was quite the big deal for fans to see how the current torchbearer would stack up against the classic arch-nemesis. But if he's changing peronalites are erratic, then there is no classic arch-nemesis. It's just some new villain. Who cares at that point?


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## Raven Crowking (Jun 26, 2007)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> And yes this is the Master, the only Master out right now.  For me he's just not a very good one, a typical example of the camp and weakness of RTD's writing.




I honestly found his combination of camp and menace quite effective.  I was rivetted watching the first two parts of the series finale.


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## Felon (Jun 26, 2007)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> There was no sarcasm or condescension in my reply to you Felon. I was simply trying to relate my opinion in the kindest manner possible. If you interpreted it as such, my apologies.



No no, I just thought we were making light banter. Perhaps "condescension" was too harsh a word. Teasing a bit. I guess I should apologize if it was taken any other way.


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## Felon (Jun 26, 2007)

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> I honestly found his combination of camp and menace quite effective.  I was rivetted watching the first two parts of the series finale.



Sooo, gotta ask...were you a big of Jim Carrey's Riddler in Schumacher's _Batman Forever_?

Becasue that's really the vibe I was getting. 

"Was that over the top? I never can tell!"


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## Raven Crowking (Jun 26, 2007)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> Even so, it doesn't change the fact that he regenerated and gained a new body and personality to go along with it. Remember, this is the first time anyone has seen the Master regenerate in the whole history of _Doctor Who_. Thus I consider all the Masters we've seen, from Roger Delgado to Derek Jacobi, to be the same incarnation. Simm truly is "the Master Reborn", since this is the first regeneration he's achieved in a long time.




I would say that the Delgado Master was his 13th incarnation.

The Beevers/Pratt Master was his rotting 13th incarnation.

The Ainley Master was his 13th incarnation in a stolen body.  He was killed in this form, and the body later recovered so that his mind could be downloaded into the Matrix.

The Ectoplasmic/Roberts Master was a Dalek construct that was killed....based of his 13th incarnation.

The Jacobi Master was the 1st incarnation of the resurrected Master (using his biodata extract combined with his mind-print from the Matrix).

The Simms Master is the 2nd incarnation of the resurrected Master.

(Of course, this is all just pointless speculation!    )


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## Raven Crowking (Jun 26, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Sooo, gotta ask...were you a big of Jim Carrey's Riddler in Schumacher's _Batman Forever_?




No.

When Carrey first showed up in the classic Animated-series style Riddler outfit, I could see that he could have been a _great_ Riddler.  Then they just let him play Jim Carrey instead, and it sucked.  Worse, I couldn't always tell which side of Two Face was the bad one until he turned.    

The Simms Master strikes me differently than he strikes you (obviously).  What I see is a Master that is truly in control (or thinks he is) and enjoying it.  He enjoys playing with his victims.  It adds to his cruelty.  For instance, it is clear that the perception filter doesn't work on him, yet he allows the Doctor to try to creep up behind him _becasue it amuses him to do so_ and then moves without letting the Doctor know why.  He parades Martha's family at the airport because _he knows she is watching_.  He knows exactly what the Doctor is going to do, long before the Doctor does.

Now, I think that the Doctor has accounted for this.  He knew that the Master could see him, and he knew that the key thing would never work.  That was never his plan.  What he needs to know is what the aliens really are in order to do whatever it is he's going to do.  It's like a serious chess game where the real question is, which player can see farther ahead?

Of course, that's not going to make everyone like the new Master, and not everyone is going to see this story in that light.  I just hope they don't flub it (from my point of view) in the final episode.


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## horacethegrey (Jun 26, 2007)

Well I'll accept your apology if you'll accept mine. Still...  



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> This isn't hard science, Horace. Exactly because regeneration is in essence doing something biologists would describe as impossible, it work any way the writer wants. As I've stated recently, this show is fantasy, complete with magic wands and wardrobes of teleportation, concealed behind a very thin disguise of science fiction.



I accepted the fact that Doctor Who will never be hard science, and that's just fine with me. Hard science bores me to death. 

But even a fantasy such as this should have rules that govern it's reality. And the rules of the Whoverse state that a regenerating Time Lord undergoes a change in personality along with his appearance. No writer on the show would dare change that, at the risk of alienating the fans.



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> I counter your roll of the eyes with a snort of my nostrils (or something like that). He's no Master. Portraying the character as a constant makes the character work. He's evolved into a foil for the Doctors--not just one Doctor, but whoever takes up the mantle. When I watched the first series, it was quite the big deal for fans to see how the current torchbearer would stack up against the classic arch-nemesis. But if he's changing peronalites are erratic, then there is no classic arch-nemesis. It's just some new villain. Who cares at that point?



A snort of the nostrils? Well I fart in your general direction, you silly person you.  

Seriously though, it's too bad that you don't care for this new Master like I do. And why should an arch nemesis remain constant? Heroes change with the times, as do villains. Why should the Master be the exception.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jun 26, 2007)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> And the rules of the Whoverse state that a regenerating Time Lord undergoes a change in personality along with his appearance.




There are, however, through lines in personality and behavior. The Doctor _has always been_ a slightly know-it-all interventionist do-gooder, even when everything else was variable. The Master _should always be_ a sadistic megalomaniac, even when everything else is variable.

The Master seems to be consistent in that, even if he is not consistent in beardedness.


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## Mallus (Jun 26, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> The Master seems to be consistent in that, even if he is not consistent in beardedness.



None of the old-school Who fans I know had a problem with Simm's Master seeming out-of-character. They all loved the performance. 

You usually don't expect a lot in the way of continuity in the Whoniverse... I mean, if you know what's good for you.


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## Mallus (Jun 26, 2007)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I guess, becuase you are right there is plenty of camp in the Doctor Who show from day 1. I just don't like how RTD writes stories, his plots are not very good IMO and when he does have a decent idea the execution is bad.



Gotcha. I don't mind RPD myself. He didn't write my favorite episodes (because Steven Moffat did) but I do like the way he writes the characters, even odd one-offs like Elton. There's an admittedly schlocky quality to his scripts that I enjoy. I guess I don't see it as bad writing, rather as remaining faithful to the spirit of Dr. Who. Like the way the end of time looked like a bad 1980's music video in "Utopia", that sort of thing. 

Takes me back to the Dr. Who of my childhood, where aliens dressed in BBC period piece cast-offs and most of the universe looked like an abandoned quarry.


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## WizarDru (Jun 26, 2007)

Mallus said:
			
		

> Takes me back to the Dr. Who of my childhood, where aliens dressed in BBC period piece cast-offs and most of the universe looked like an abandoned quarry.




And for me, that was most of "The Sound of Drums".  It was one huge act of fan service.  And I loved it.

- UNIT returns...with a helicarrier.  A HELICARRIER, PEOPLE!
- Jelly Babies!
- The Master quoting himself from Logopolis.
- The Master's history
- Visions of Gallifrey  (the first time since the Five Doctors)
- The first on-camera black Time Lord
- Both sets of Time Lord outfits (from The War Games and The Deadly Assassin)
- about a kajillion references to previous episodes in the new series

This is, to me, Dr. Who at it's finest.  I can't wait to see how Martha Jones saves the Doctor, who in turn saves the day.  For that matter, will we see Torchwood?  Oh, and Martha's dad sticks it to Da Man.

It all changes, all right.  You know what I really like?  That the show hasn't pretended that everyone's ignored every single alien invasion and collection of weirdness.  Continuity builds and they can't keep pretending that nothings happened.  I mean, you've killed the President of the United States and if things proceed as they started, 10% of mankind.


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## Felon (Jun 26, 2007)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> But even a fantasy such as this should have rules that govern it's reality. And the rules of the Whoverse state that a regenerating Time Lord undergoes a change in personality along with his appearance. No writer on the show would dare change that, at the risk of alienating the fans.



Whoa. We know that The Doctor undergoes a personality change. What we know about the rest of the Gallafreyans is minimal. What we do know tells us that the Doctor is special, unique amongst Gallefreyans. An iconoclast and polar opposite of his stuffy, stoic, perpetually hidebound kinsmen. It is wrong to assume that what applies to the Doctor is typical for his kind...or for the Master.



> Seriously though, it's too bad that you don't care for this new Master like I do. And why should an arch nemesis remain constant? Heroes change with the times, as do villains. Why should the Master be the exception.



Oh, I think Sims is doing a good job. It's nice to see a villain that the Doctor actually takes seriously. Previously, he's always been in control, and even when he's running for dear life, Davies' wants to leave you with the impression that it's more an act of restraint than anything. 

He just ain't...masterful. Too much monkey, not enough organ-grinder.


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## Felon (Jun 26, 2007)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> And for me, that was most of "The Sound of Drums".  It was one huge act of fan service.  And I loved it.
> 
> - UNIT returns...with a helicarrier.  A HELICARRIER, PEOPLE!
> - Jelly Babies!
> ...



Well, you certainly have a point there. Several, in fact.

What's the line from Logopolis?

Oh, and remember, Trial of a Time Lord took place on Gallafrey (after the Five Doctors).


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## Mallus (Jun 26, 2007)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> This is, to me, Dr. Who at it's finest.



Yup. 

For me, the new series, particularly this season, has been like watching a favorite show from childhood as an adult and discovering it's even better than you'd remembered it.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jun 26, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> What's the line from Logopolis?




"..., please attend carefully."



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> Oh, and remember, Trial of a Time Lord took place on Gallafrey (after the Five Doctors).




I think that was supposed to be in a space station.


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## Plane Sailing (Jun 26, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> No no, I just thought we were making light banter. Perhaps "condescension" was too harsh a word. Teasing a bit. I guess I should apologize if it was taken any other way.




I didn't realise that it was supposed to be teasing banter, sorry if I seemed harsh.

All friends again now, eh?


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## sniffles (Jun 26, 2007)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> And for me, that was most of "The Sound of Drums".  It was one huge act of fan service.  And I loved it.
> 
> - UNIT returns...with a helicarrier.  A HELICARRIER, PEOPLE!
> - Jelly Babies!
> ...



You said everything I've been thinking.   

I'm just loving it that while trying to please the old guard fans they're introducing new things. They're not trying to sway the show to one audience or the other. For me that's a good thing. It's enabled my fiancee and I to get several friends of ours hooked on the show who had no interest in the original series because it was too cheesy and campy. They can enjoy the new series with us even though they don't know all the history, and we can enjoy all the historical references the writers manage to slip in.


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## WizarDru (Jun 27, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Well, you certainly have a point there. Several, in fact.
> 
> What's the line from Logopolis?
> 
> Oh, and remember, Trial of a Time Lord took place on Gallafrey (after the Five Doctors).




In Logopolis, the Master broadcasts "People of the Universe, please attend carefully..."  This episode features him saying the same thing, merely replacing 'Universe' with 'Earth'.

And Trial of a Time Lord took place OFF of Gallifrey, on a space station at an unknown location.  In fact, at one point they receive news of an insurrection on Gallifrey, making it clear that wherever they are, it's not the homeworld of the Time Lords.  It may be orbiting Gallifrey, but we never actually see it on camera.


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## Felon (Jun 27, 2007)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> And Trial of a Time Lord took place OFF of Gallifrey, on a space station at an unknown location.  In fact, at one point they receive news of an insurrection on Gallifrey, making it clear that wherever they are, it's not the homeworld of the Time Lords.  It may be orbiting Gallifrey, but we never actually see it on camera.



Didn't catch the space-station part mentioned, though I suppose ultimately that if it all takes place in a courtroom, it's not much of a view of Gallafrey.


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## lrsach01 (Jun 27, 2007)

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> I honestly found his combination of camp and menace quite effective.  I was rivetted watching the first two parts of the series finale.



I agree. I love the old episodes with the Master, but I love the change. I was actually a bit scared that Sound of Drums would have Saxon with a mustache and all emo about everything. This new Master is a lot like the Doctor, just a lot more scarey.


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## WizarDru (Jun 27, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Didn't catch the space-station part mentioned, though I suppose ultimately that if it all takes place in a courtroom, it's not much of a view of Gallafrey.




In point of fact, the special effects shots of the TARDIS being pulled into the space station was one of the most expensive effect shots done for the old series, due to the creation of the space station model and the precision camera that was used, especially remembering that this was a BBC TV show in 1986.

And from the looks of it, they're not even near Gallifrey, but somewhere deep in space.

See for yourself.  WARNING: Latter part of video is Spoiler-rific.  Don't watch the whole thing if you haven't seen it and plan to.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 27, 2007)

lrsach01 said:
			
		

> I agree. I love the old episodes with the Master, but I love the change. I was actually a bit scared that Sound of Drums would have Saxon with a mustache and all emo about everything. This new Master is a lot like the Doctor, just a lot more scarey.



I was wondering if he is really more scary than the Doctor, because the doctor can be quite scary, too - think of the Familiy of Blood. But then, the Doctor was (and will always be) on "our" side. The Master is just as smart as the Doctor, but he isn't on our side...


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## Felon (Jun 27, 2007)

lrsach01 said:
			
		

> I agree. I love the old episodes with the Master, but I love the change. I was actually a bit scared that Sound of Drums would have Saxon with a mustache and all emo about everything. This new Master is a lot like the Doctor, just a lot more scarey.



"emo'?


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## WizarDru (Jun 27, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> "emo'?




Yeah, you know...emo 

Like Tickle Me Emo , for example.


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## Felon (Jun 28, 2007)

Odd. Never heard the term, but I've read it in two separate places in the same day (the other being here in this review of Overlord).


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## WizarDru (Jun 28, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Odd. Never heard the term, but I've read it in two separate places in the same day (the other being here in this review of Overlord).




So I guess you don't read Questionable Content, either.


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