# Make a monk/sorcerer not suck.



## silverblade56

I was thinking about making a monk/sorcerer for my next PFS character.  The problem is that this combo is very suboptimal. I was thinking of modeling it after the monks of the dark moon (just cause I like the concept) from 3.0/3.5 forgotten realms which, sadly, they never even made a good prestige class for to make this combo viable.  I am not sure how to go about it. I am thinking a fighter (unarmed fighter)/crossblooded sorcerer abyssal or shadow/draconic with some dragon disciple levels thrown in. I am not sure how well this will work.  Perhaps there is a way to do this better with magus?  Input would be appreciated.


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## Jackinthegreen

Is 3.5 stuff allowed?  If so, there's the Ascetic Mage feat which might go into the Enlightened Fist PrC from Complete Arcane.

Given how little I know of the Magus, I would think you could probably do something unarmed there if you really wanted.


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## silverblade56

Well it's Pathfinder so no 3.5 stuff. There is a sorcerer bloodline that lets you use wisdom instead of charisma for sorcerer casting,  That could eliminate MAD somewhat but still have to deal with reduced spellcasting progression plus bad BAB and hitpoints.  Kensai magus may work but favored weapon has to be a bladed weapon plus unarmed strike really sucks as weapon unless you are a monk.


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## MerricB

Well, anything that includes "monk" is definitely suboptimal to begin with. The unarmed fighter-type would seem a better way to do it.

Are you looking for:
* an unarmed fighter who casts spells,
* a spellcaster who can fight unarmed, or
* a character who casts touch spells through their unarmed strikes?

Or is there something else about the monk you particularly want your character to do?

Think about what you want to do first, and it's easier to then choose the classes to fit the concept.


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## Ace

There really isn't any way to make a sorcerer/monk worth while in Pathfinder.

However if your DM allows in you might try mixing Battle Sorcerer with Youxia archetype substitution 

This makes for a spell using, medium BAB caster with pretty potent Chi powers and the ability to have a weapon thatuses various feats.

Its rather stat dependent though requiring Charisma and Wisdom along with others.

Assuming 20 point buy 12-12-14-12-12-15 will work acceptably especially since you can use light armor


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## silverblade56

Well, I was planning on doing it for PFS so no 3.5 or 3rd party stuff.  It looks like the only way to do this is the quiggong monk archetype for the "spells".


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## Henry

silverblade56 said:


> Well, I was planning on doing it for PFS so no 3.5 or 3rd party stuff.  It looks like the only way to do this is the quiggong monk archetype for the "spells".




Full concurrence here - quinggong monk is the most legal effective "sorcerer-monk" option.


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## Shayuri

Yeah. Empyreal sorceror can pair up with monk, statwise...but only do it for the flavor, because the monk mechanics won't make up for the spell losses. 

I've played a high level PF monk only once, and it was pretty unsatisfying. They look really cool when you browse the giant list of abilities they get...but the meat and drink of the class is lacking. Seems like, while PF helped the BAB issue a bit by making a Flurry's attack bonus equal to your class level, it's still pretty difficult/expensive to add the necessary enhancement bonuses to your unarmed attacks.

In fairness, it was my first time playing one, so there may be nuance I missed.


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## silverblade56

I have indeed found a much better way than quinggong monk. Aasimar monk (sohei) 1/sorcerer (empeyreal bloodline) 1/Eldritch Knight x.  I have not gone crazy. The folks at Paizo have stated that spell like abilities from race or domains, etc. can count as "Ability to cast x spells of x level or higher" for purposes of qualifying for prestige classes. That means that the aasimars's daylight spell like ability allows early entry into eldritch knight.  Sohei monk grants all martial weapon proficiencies, so that takes care of the other prereq.  Some DM's may not allow this for home games, but it is PFS legal.


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## Deuce Traveler

For the sake of the discussion, wouldn't a monk/sorcerer be pretty weak until epic levels, but dominate other builds in the epic levels?

Wouldn't a level 20/level 20 monk/sorcerer be superior to a level 40 monk or level 40 sorcerer?


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## silverblade56

That's kind of irrelevant.    Who has a level 40 character they actually play


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## Matthew Ashburn

Deuce Traveler said:


> For the sake of the discussion, wouldn't a monk/sorcerer be pretty weak until epic levels, but dominate other builds in the epic levels?
> 
> Wouldn't a level 20/level 20 monk/sorcerer be superior to a level 40 monk or level 40 sorcerer?




makes sense to me,you get 2 capstones at the very least


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## Quartz

Does Pathfinder have something like the Eldritch Knight? Basically you work the Ki powers as sorceror spells.


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## Empirate

Why do you even want to mix those two specific classes? After all, classes are just an out-of-game concept to provide us with options when building our characters' mechanical aspects. So who do you envision your character to be, capability-wise and where his/her role in and out of combat is concerned? That's the question(s) you need to answer first.

Spells plus some kewl stunts plus some unarmed martial prowess seems to  be (on the surface) what your question implies you're looking for. It may be that the best mechanical representation of that idea or concept is not a Monk/Sorcerer, but a pure Sorcerer, a Sorcerer/Rogue, or even a Cleric or Oracle or Inquisitor or something. I believe a Sorcerer (dragon bloodline)/Dragon Disciple, reflavored as you see fit, with the right spell selection, might pull that off, and be just as effective as a pure Monk in combat, if entirely different mechanically. So might a Wizard/Fighter/Eldritch Knight, though.

So what's your role?


(of course it's entirely possible you just want to play around with the mechanics of the specific class combo you mentioned. In which case, I can confidently tell you: doesn't work, sorry)


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## Akillion

I would be inclined to work with your DM to make a prestige class and a couple of feats to help you out.  The character should end up no more powerful than an Eldritch Knight as a guideline.


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## Herobizkit

Is the 3.5 Gestalt option cheating?


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## KradNevar

silverblade56 said:


> I have indeed found a much better way than quinggong monk. Aasimar monk (sohei) 1/sorcerer (empeyreal bloodline) 1/Eldritch Knight x.  I have not gone crazy. The folks at Paizo have stated that spell like abilities from race or domains, etc. can count as "Ability to cast x spells of x level or higher" for purposes of qualifying for prestige classes. That means that the aasimars's daylight spell like ability allows early entry into eldritch knight.  Sohei monk grants all martial weapon proficiencies, so that takes care of the other prereq.  Some DM's may not allow this for home games, but it is PFS legal.




Silver I am looking into this as a potential candidate for my next build. Would you be willing to share your build? My email is ncthunderson@yahoo.com thanks Mitch.


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## Dannyalcatraz

Are you building in D&D, PF, or some kind of other 3.x RPG?  What material can you use?

If you want to do some looking yourself, check the Monk an Martial Arcanist links in my sig.


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## Tim Freerksen

MerricB said:


> Well, anything that includes "monk" is definitely suboptimal to begin with.




Not really, monks are always slowburners. They are suboptimal in the beginning but eventually become very powerful, especially with some monk only items.

The big problem with a Monk/Sorcerer is the fact that charisma is completely irrelevant to a monk while it is needed for a sorc.


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## Dannyalcatraz

Well, if you’re worried about MAD’s effect on your spellcasting...

You could always take a bunch of spells that don’t depend as much on Cha for efficacy, while using the spell-channeling Sorcerer or Reserve feats that fit your PC concept while providing some combat utility.


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