# Orcus vs. Demogorgon



## Sword of Spirit (Jun 15, 2018)

How does poor Demogorgon, Prince of Demons, stand a chance against his rival Orcus?

That question is rhetorical. The real question is how can Demogorgon’s stat block have any reasonable chance of putting up a fight against Orcus’s stat block on a flat featureless plane?

The implicit statement is that I think Demogorgon’s stat block _should_ have a chance.

The hope is that someone can demonstrate where my interpretations of stat block 1 vs. stat block 2 are mistaken, and Demogorgon does have at least a 40% chance of victory.

Here’s how I see it. (I’m assuming both demons are completely familiar with their adversaries capabilities.)

Orcus can fly, and Demogorgon can’t, so Demogorgon can’t just get into a brawl with him (which is about the only way Demogorgon can deal damage). Demogorgon has a decent way of getting Orcus out of the sky…except that Orcus doesn’t need to give him a real chance to use it.

Demogorgon can potentially use Beguiling Gaze to get Orcus out of the sky. Orcus even has fair chance of failing the save (though he does get advantage). However, in order to be subject to that save, Orcus has to get within 120’ and _choose not to avert his gaze_ from Demogorgon. The only reason to do that would be if he needed to use some sort of hostile action within that range that required him to look at Demogorgon.

He has no such need. And even if he did have such a need (such as to swoop in for a _power word kill_ once he was sure it would work), his Legendary Resistance gives him 3 free successes.

The only way Demogorgon gets Orcus out of the sky is the unlikely even that he gets Orcus to keep looking at him long enough to use up his Legendary Resistance and fail a save. And unless Orcus was within about 60’ horizontally, Demogorgon will have to use his entire turn moving up to him, not getting any attacks on him until the end of another creature’s turn. And that is best case scenario of assuming Demogorgon stunned him with a Legendary Action and is able to move up on him before Orcus gets a turn and flies away.

And of course, after all that, Orcus probably just takes an opportunity attack and flies away.

But Orcus has no reason to get within the 120’ range of Demogorgon’s oh so easily avoided gaze, because he can conjure 500 hp of undead at a 300’ range. _Any_ undead. Think about that. (Let’s just say that he can’t summon liches, because Mellifleur says no.) He can custom pick whatever undead he wants in whatever quantities fit within those generous hit point totals, and send them shambling, screaming, and cavorting off to tangle with Demogorgon. The right 500 hp worth of undead will probably win outright. But if he wants to be really sure, he will pop off three _create undead_s, and then start casting unlimited _animate dead_s to send an endless stream of zombies moving Demogorgon’s way. Yeah, that’ll do it!

And what’s worse, I’m not even sure Demogorgon would win in a stand up brawl. Assuming they both just trade blows, Orcus does more damage (Demogorgon has no resistance to necrotic, while Orcus ignores it). He also has a better attack bonus for his primary attack. Demogorgon has better AC. His best chance is probably to use Legendary Actions to try to stun Orcus and wail on him with his multiattack (and spare Legendary Action when he gets him on the first try that round—if needed, assume there are a couple demons duking out in the distance so the lords can get all their Legendary Actions). Demogorgon probably has a decent chance here. It would take math I’m not interested in doing, but it at least looks like it would be close, so that would be acceptable…

…if it weren’t for the fact that it means that in the best case scenario (that would be unlikely to actually come about) Demogorgon has an even chance.

Please, somebody tell me there is something in the stat blocks themselves (of course Demogorgon won’t let himself get into this situation) that fixes this problem.


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## Dausuul (Jun 15, 2018)

...Yeah, I'm not seeing how Demogorgon wins this fight either. Even in a straight-up melee brawl, Orcus has the edge. I thought at first that Demogorgon could tilt the scales by using his gaze attack to make Orcus fight blind; but their attack bonuses are so high relative to their ACs that this has far less impact than it normally would. With Demogorgon using a legendary action on gaze attacks, Orcus can make up the difference by using _his_ legendary action to smash face.

*Edit:* I just figured out how Demogorgon wins. Cast _telekinesis_... and target Orcus's Wand. _Telekinesis_ is an ability contest, not a saving throw, so Orcus doesn't benefit from Legendary Resistance or Magic Resistance here. It's basically a coin flip whether it works, and Demogorgon can flip that coin three times before he runs out of castings. Orcus is massively, cripplingly dependent on the Wand; without it, Demogorgon whips his sorry bloated butt all over the Abyss.


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## CTurbo (Jun 15, 2018)

Orcus's 500hp undead is his most OP feature

Pretty sure neither of them want a piece of my Halfing Frenzy Barb with a Light Hammer though lol


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## MonsterEnvy (Jun 15, 2018)

I should add that for Tome of Foes Demogorgon was nerfed. For example he lost like 90 hp. His damage was lowered he lost a d12 off his tentacles and 4d10 off his tail. Orcus meanwhile was not changed at all.


I made my own version of Demogorgon off the chassis of the OUt of the Abyss one. 
First off he gained two bite attacks. (Have no idea why he did not have them to start with.) They are pretty weak, but they are extra damage, (2d6 + 1d6 fire.) I also edited his multiattack so that he will actually use his gaze at times 



> Multiattack. Demogorgon makes two tentacle attacks and two bite attacks, or he uses his gaze and makes two tentacle attacks.




I added some Regen.



> Regeneration. Demogorgon regains 10 hit points at the start of his turn if he has at least 1 hit point.




I gave him a 500 foot teleport as an action. (Though not as a legendary action. I also gave this to all the Demon Lords.) Along with adding Fly to his at will innate spells. 

Finally I bumped his strength up by 1 to 30 as a felt he should be at the top pure strength wise and increased his size to gargantuan. When Mords Tome of Foes came out I edited his hit die to match the one there. Which resulted in his hp being 518 (28d20+224)

I did CR calculating and got him coming out at CR 27. Only one more then he used to be yet he feels much stronger.


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## Mouseferatu (Jun 15, 2018)

So, I agree that Demogorgon's stat block is a bit weak for the Prince of Demons. (I'm particularly irked that he doesn't get two turns in a round, like he used to in some prior editions.) And the whole "summon 500 hp of undead once/day" thing throws everything out of whack.

However, if Demogorgon can deal with those undead--perhaps with a horde of his own--things aren't so heavily weighted toward Orcus as it looks. There's very little he can do to Demogorgon without getting inside Demo's range. Any time he tries to make hit and run attacks, Demogorgon can ready actions to strike when Orcus is near.

And if it comes down to trading blows? Orcus is screwed.

He either looks at Demogorgon, in which case Demo's going to hit him with a gaze attack every round--probably multiple ones--to burn through that Legendary Resistance; or he doesn't, in which case he has disadvantage on every attack he makes, while granting Demogorgon advantage. (Fighting a foe you can't see is _rough_.)

Now, yes, Demogorgon is taking damage every round. Some of those attacks are going to land even with disadvantage, and Orcus has a few nasty legendary options. But he's hitting a lot more often, too, because he has advantage as long as Orcus can't see him. He's thus likely doing a lot _more_ damage.

And if Orcus does look at him, if Demogorgon can goad Orcus into burning all of his Legendary Resistance, that's probably game over.

Because _feeblemind_ is an Int save. One of the saves Orcus is _not_ proficient in. Even with advantage, a +5 save against a DC 23 spell ain't good odds.

And even if he does make that, Demogorgon can keep hitting him with gaze attacks every round, or keep fighting with advantage while Orcus has disadvantage. There are simply no good options for Orcus here.

I'm not saying it'll be easy. I'm not saying Orcus has no chance; it could still go either way. And of course, I've handwaved Orcus's single biggest weapon, because that changes the entire encounter on a fundamental level.

But that "look at me and make saves, or look away and suffer disadvantage while I have advantage" dilemma is a doozy. And I think, if things do come down to one-on-one, it makes Demogorgon the safer bet.


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## Nevvur (Jun 15, 2018)

Sword of Spirit said:


> How does poor Demogorgon, Prince of Demons, stand a chance against his rival Orcus?
> ...
> Please, somebody tell me there is something in the stat blocks themselves (of course Demogorgon won’t let himself get into this situation) that fixes this problem.




It's fun to speculate on these sort of white room match-ups, but I wouldn't really call it a problem. The demon lords (along with literally every character in every RPG) should be more than the sum of their stat blocks, and while I agree Orcus has the white room advantage, I'm satisfied with narrative explanations for Demogorgon's lasting dominance among the demon lords.


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## neogod22 (Jun 15, 2018)

The problem with looking purely at the start block of 5e monsters, is that they were created to simplify combat between players and to give them a chance to win, not display ALL of a monster's abilities.   A closer fight would have to be looking at their 3e (or 3.5e) stat blocks, where it list all of their abilities.   Things that make Demogorgon so dangerous is, his ability to take control of any demon near him, the ability to heal himself just by killing creatures.   These are abilities demonstrated in past books (including the book you're using) and gives reason why Orcus or Grazzt could never defeat him.  The tactic of summoning demons just so he can tear them apart and heal himself is an ingenious strategy.


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## Eltab (Jun 15, 2018)

If the Demon Lord's stat block does not fill two pages of small print (a la the 3.x era mega-NPCs), then you are only fighting an avatar of the Demon Lord.  

Demogorgon will be mad to lose, but he now knows _where Orcus is paying his full attention_ and can pull off some clever stunt at Orcus' expense elsewhere.


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## Dausuul (Jun 15, 2018)

Mouseferatu said:


> Now, yes, Demogorgon is taking damage every round. Some of those attacks are going to land even with disadvantage, and Orcus has a few nasty legendary options. But he's hitting a lot more often, too, because he has advantage as long as Orcus can't see him.



That was what I thought too, at first, but then I realized their attack bonuses are so high that it makes far less difference than it normally would. Demogorgon hits on a roll of 2 or better; Orcus hits on a 3 or better.

At these extremes, neither advantage nor disadvantage has a big impact. Demogorgon's hit rate goes from 95% to 99% and Orcus's goes from 90% to 81%. Demogorgon's crit rate goes to 9.75% while Orcus's goes to 0.25%. All that ain't nothing, but it's also not insurmountable; and it requires Demogorgon to burn his Legendary Action each round on a gaze attack. Since Orcus does not need to do that, he can use his Legendary Action to attack with his tail, which makes up the difference in hit rates.

It all comes down to the Wand. With the Wand, Orcus has the edge even without his 500 hit points of liches. If Demogorgon can get the Wand away from him, however, he's boned (heh).


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## Mouseferatu (Jun 15, 2018)

Dausuul said:


> That was what I thought too, at first, but then I realized their attack bonuses are so high that it makes far less difference than it normally would. Demogorgon hits on a roll of 2 or better; Orcus hits on a 3 or better.




Well. That's... certainly a hole in my logic, and something I shouldn't have missed. Argle.

I mean, Demogorgon isn't burning legendary actions on his gaze if Orcus is looking away that round, obviously, so he's getting another attack in, but... You're absolutely right that at those bonuses, advantage and disadvantage become pretty unimportant.


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## Mouseferatu (Jun 15, 2018)

Nevvur said:


> It's fun to speculate on these sort of white room match-ups, but I wouldn't really call it a problem. The demon lords (along with literally every character in every RPG) should be more than the sum of their stat blocks






neogod22 said:


> The problem with looking purely at the start block of 5e monsters, is that they were created to simplify combat between players and to give them a chance to win, not display ALL of a monster's abilities.




While these are both true, there are two problems:

1) This isn't something that a lot of newer players know, and

2) Demogorgon being at a disadvantage (let alone not being superior) in a straight stat block match-up is a change from previous editions and existing lore.

So I understand why it bothers some people, even if it's surmountable with relative ease. Heck, it bothers _me_, even though I know I can easily adjust for it.

I swear, 5E has a grudge against all my favorite archfiends. Demogorgon is nerfed, and not only is Anthraxus not even detailed but they've changed "oinoloth" from his title into an average-powered species of fiend.

*shakes fist* WOOOOOOOOOTCCCCCC!!!


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## neogod22 (Jun 15, 2018)

Mouseferatu said:


> While these are both true, there are two problems:
> 
> 1) This isn't something that a lot of newer players know, and
> 
> ...



Yes, it really sucks how 5e marginalizes its monsters,  but I think it allows them to be defeated by the players.  The problem is 5e is kind of like Destiny 2.  While friendly for casual players, it's a joke for the hardcore.  One thing I find odd about 5e, is that 2e used to tell you environments monsters were usually found in, and the numbers they frequently were found to be with.  Also the rarity of encountering them.  Also, stronger monsters that usually had allies, or minions,  they would put in the numbers and formations also.


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## Sword of Spirit (Jun 15, 2018)

Dausuul said:


> It all comes down to the Wand. With the Wand, Orcus has the edge even without his 500 hit points of liches. If Demogorgon can get the Wand away from him, however, he's boned (heh).




Well...that depends on whether you're using the Out of the Abyss version or the nerfed Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes version. OOtA Demogorgon can exhaust Orcus's hp one round sooner than Orcus can his. But with the MToF version, Orcus still wins.



Mouseferatu said:


> And if it comes down to trading blows? Orcus is screwed.
> ...
> 
> Because _feeblemind_ is an Int save. One of the saves Orcus is _not_ proficient in. Even with advantage, a +5 save against a DC 23 spell ain't good odds.




On trading blows, see above. The _feeblemind_ one though, is one of Demogorgon's best abilities. If he can use it before Orcus uses his wand, _and_ he can get Orcus into melee, _and_ you are using the OOtA stats for Demogorgon...then he probably wins. That's a lot of ifs ands and buts though. 



Dausuul said:


> *Edit:* I just figured out how Demogorgon wins. Cast _telekinesis_... and target Orcus's Wand. _Telekinesis_ is an ability contest, not a saving throw, so Orcus doesn't benefit from Legendary Resistance or Magic Resistance here. It's basically a coin flip whether it works, and Demogorgon can flip that coin three times before he runs out of castings. Orcus is massively, cripplingly dependent on the Wand; without it, Demogorgon whips his sorry bloated butt all over the Abyss.




This would help, but unfortunately he can only move it 30' per round, so Orcus can just chase him down and grab it. And the real problem: it only has a range of 60'.

In general, the biggest problem is that Demogorgon's gaze is virtually useless against anyone worthy of fighting him (including an adventuring party) because no one is going to _not_ avert their eyes, which means he just semi-blinds some of the characters each round, if he wants to give up damage to do it. Casters are going to cast spells that don't require a direct target, and weapon users will just take the disadvantage and attack.

So let's take away Orcus' wand and figure out what Demogorgon really needs to defeat him, and just in general to be more effective.

What he needs the most is the ability to incapacitate creatures so they can't avert their eyes from his gaze attacks. He currently has no way of doing that, except through one of his gaze attacks *facepalm*.

If he has a way to do that with regularity, he could then try to smack critters out of the sky and go after them. Otherwise all they have to do is stay more than 150' from him (120' after he's blown his _feeblemind_) and they are safe.

I did some math and figured out about what the CRs come out as based on the DMG guidelines:
Demogorgon (OOtA): 28 or 29
Demogorgon (MToF): 25 or 26
Orcus: 26 (wand ignored)
Zariel: 27 (for comparison with another listed CR 26 creature)

And the sad part is that you need the tough version Demogorgon just to beat Orcus in a melee _without_ his wand.


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## dave2008 (Jun 15, 2018)

Demogorgon wins because i, the DM, say so   However, by the 5e stat block demogorgon is very underpowered.  They had a chance to correct this in MToF, but they went the otherway for some reason.  Personally, I default to the 1e statblock when I rank relative power of fiends and then go from their.

So we have: Demogorgon - Asmodeus - Orucs (a rather distant 3rd)








Notice Orcus has 40% fewer HP and a 25% weaker AC and less magic resistance too.  I've revised my 5e Demogorgon accordingly


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## Dausuul (Jun 15, 2018)

Sword of Spirit said:


> But with the MToF version, Orcus still wins.



How? Without his Wand, Orcus's DPR is half Demogorgon's. He can't even Multiattack.



Sword of Spirit said:


> This would help, but unfortunately he can only move it 30' per round, so Orcus can just chase him down and grab it.



Which is why Demogorgon moves it, then uses his "Interact with an object" to pick it up in one of his mouths. Orcus has no way to get it back.

Now, the range limitation is a big issue. Demogorgon has to start within 80 feet of Orcus to pull it off; he moves 50, uses _telekinesis_, grabs the wand. If Orcus can keep his distance, he can crush Demogorgon with magic and undead.


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## Invisible Stalker (Jun 16, 2018)

Demogrogon has his Stranger Things royalties to either buy off Orcus, or buy some flunkies to do light work for him.


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## CTurbo (Jun 16, 2018)

How would they do against Tiamat?


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## Mouseferatu (Jun 16, 2018)

CTurbo said:


> How would they do against Tiamat?




She mops the floor with either of them. But then, her CR is 4 higher than theirs.

It takes a little bit longer than it otherwise might, due to their damage resistances/immunities, but barring an incredible stroke of luck, or some truly unwise decisions on her part, it's pretty close to a sure thing.


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## Krachek (Jun 16, 2018)

Demons don’t care about theorical questions.
They won’t fight alone, or without advantage.


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## gyor (Jun 17, 2018)

neogod22 said:


> Yes, it really sucks how 5e marginalizes its monsters,  but I think it allows them to be defeated by the players.  The problem is 5e is kind of like Destiny 2.  While friendly for casual players, it's a joke for the hardcore.  One thing I find odd about 5e, is that 2e used to tell you environments monsters were usually found in, and the numbers they frequently were found to be with.  Also the rarity of encountering them.  Also, stronger monsters that usually had allies, or minions,  they would put in the numbers and formations also.




 My solution is to allow any cosmic deity or near deity like Archfiends, to cast any spell as a ritual, even if the spell doesn't have the ritual tag.


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## gyor (Jun 17, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> Demogorgon wins because i, the DM, say so   However, by the 5e stat block demogorgon is very underpowered.  They had a chance to correct this in MToF, but they went the otherway for some reason.  Personally, I default to the 1e statblock when I rank relative power of fiends and then go from their.
> 
> So we have: Demogorgon - Asmodeus - Orucs (a rather distant 3rd)
> 
> ...




 Since that edition Asmodeus has been promoted to Greater God, if Asmodeus comes directly for Demigorgon and Orcus together, they run the other way at this point. Luckily for them its not his style.

 As for Tiamat of course she wipes the floor with them too, she's a full god, even if her stats suggests she's a 2 dimesional monster instead of a God.

 For perpective Orcus isn't that much higher in CR then an Empyreans, what like only 3 CR higher? the most powerful none deity Celestial (displacing Solars from that position).

 Actually an Empyrean could probably take Demogorgon out, they have an incredible flight speed, huge range for their bolts (which can be any energy type except poison, necrotic, and maybe pyschic), plus earthquake and Fire Storm.

 And for defense Legendary Resistance and Magic resistance. Oh and Dispel Good and Evil.

 Even if the Empyrean dies their Divine Parent just brings them back to life, to hunt Demogorgon down again.

 Still people forget that CR is in relation to PCs, even designed based on monster vs. monster fights.


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## Mirtek (Jun 17, 2018)

gyor said:


> Since that edition Asmodeus has been promoted to Greater God, if Asmodeus comes directly for Demigorgon and Orcus together, they run the other way at this point. Luckily for them its not his style.



 Well, 5e has demoted him back down to lesser deity status. Still beats a mere demonlord


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## gyor (Jun 17, 2018)

Mirtek said:


> Well, 5e has demoted him back down to lesser deity status. Still beats a mere demonlord




 That was silly, along with demoting Lolth, it just doesn't make sense, he commands Archdevils, including those that rule layers of Hell, as well as Gods like Tiamat, he's effectly one of the most powerful Gods in the game and leads the powers and legions of Hell.

 Lolth rules the Demonweb pits and is the head of the Dark Seldarine, is the head God of the Drow, Yolchols, Chitines, Driders and even some evil humaniods in places like Zakhara, I can even see her aquiring Shadar Kai worshippers.

 So imo both she revert to greater God status like in 4e, it makes more sense.


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## Mouseferatu (Jun 18, 2018)

gyor said:


> That was silly, along with demoting Lolth




Whereas I preferred it when the two of them were just a high-powered Duke of Hell and a high-powered demon lord, and neither were proper deities. (And yes, I know it's kind of splitting hairs, since some Dukes and demon lords were _effectively_ gods, but still.)

But then, I also preferred Tiamat, Bahamut, and Vecna as ancient, powerful, and mythic beings but not remotely gods. I think it makes for more interesting stories.


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## cbwjm (Jun 18, 2018)

I'm actually thinking of demoting Asmodeus back down to archdevil and then having Mephistopheles' plans finally come to fruition overthrowing, Asmodeus. Whether or not he manages to hold onto rulership of the Nine Hells is another matter. I'm also changing Abishai to be servants of Tiamat only, outside the hierarchy of the hells and so unable to be commanded by an Archdevil.


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## Greg K (Jun 18, 2018)

Mouseferatu said:


> Whereas I preferred it when the two of them were just a high-powered Duke of Hell and a high-powered demon lord, and neither were proper deities. (And yes, I know it's kind of splitting hairs, since some Dukes and demon lords were _effectively_ gods, but still.)
> 
> But then, I also preferred Tiamat, Bahamut, and Vecna as ancient, powerful, and mythic beings but not remotely gods. I think it makes for more interesting stories.




My preferences are the same regarding all of the above.


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## neogod22 (Jun 18, 2018)

gyor said:


> My solution is to allow any cosmic deity or near deity like Archfiends, to cast any spell as a ritual, even if the spell doesn't have the ritual tag.



That's not useful in combat.  But, as far as in past editions, gods could cast any spell they desired without needing components or spell slots.  As a DM, I would say, feel free to grant any monster abilities that they normally don't come with if they are important to your story.  
As for Archdevils, they can grant wishes which means they can cast the wish spell when making deals.  
I understand what 5e is doing, which is basically running the monsters like 4e.  They give them a simplified stat block so the DM don't get overwhelmed by the amount of spells and abilities they have if they listed them all.  Which is why I would encourage any DM who wants to run a Demonlord as an end boss to look up all the abilities they had in previous editions and decide what would be best to add to the combat if anything, to make it a tough fight.


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## gyor (Jun 18, 2018)

neogod22 said:


> That's not useful in combat.  But, as far as in past editions, gods could cast any spell they desired without needing components or spell slots.  As a DM, I would say, feel free to grant any monster abilities that they normally don't come with if they are important to your story.
> As for Archdevils, they can grant wishes which means they can cast the wish spell when making deals.
> I understand what 5e is doing, which is basically running the monsters like 4e.  They give them a simplified stat block so the DM don't get overwhelmed by the amount of spells and abilities they have if they listed them all.  Which is why I would encourage any DM who wants to run a Demonlord as an end boss to look up all the abilities they had in previous editions and decide what would be best to add to the combat if anything, to make it a tough fight.




 I hate it, look at deity abilities in 3e and 2e they feel like they have the transformative powers of a God, worthy of the title, 4e and 5e deity stats are just boring monsters that only have combat abilities, and no reality altering power, its aweful.

 Its the entire reason I will never buy Tyranny of Dragon AP, Tiamat is just turned into a powerful combat monster that seems to have no other abilities then combat, nothing that screams diefic.

 Serious Liches and Mummy Lords and Skull Lords feel more like Gods then Tiamat, aside from CR, its aweful.

 At the very least deities should all have at will Wish.


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## SkidAce (Jun 18, 2018)

cbwjm said:


> ... I'm also changing Abishai to be servants of Tiamat only, outside the hierarchy of the hells and so unable to be commanded by an Archdevil.




Yup!  I'm with you on this one.

Loved the various conflicts that "Abishai walks into a bar, devils pissed cause they can't order it around, and what does Tiamat want here anyway?" causes.


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## dave2008 (Jun 18, 2018)

gyor said:


> Since that edition Asmodeus has been promoted to Greater God, if Asmodeus comes directly for Demigorgon and Orcus together, they run the other way at this point.




Not in my game    Devils and Demons aren't trying to become gods in my game.  They have power equivalent to gods, so what is the point.  Asmodeus has the power of an intermediate god (I still use 3 tiers of godhood) in my game and so does Demogorgon.  But Demogorgon is slightly more powerful than Asmodeus, just like 1e. I do like some historical context 

Personally, I pretty much ignore any lore that isn't in the 1e MM, MM2, FF, Deities and Demigods, or similar books in 4e.  I mostly mish-mash 1e & 4e with a little 3e & 5e (just the good stuff) sprinkled in when it comes to lore.


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## dave2008 (Jun 18, 2018)

cbwjm said:


> I'm actually thinking of demoting Asmodeus back down to archdevil...




He is an archdevil in 5e lore.  He has power equivalent to a lesser god in 5e lore, but he is not a god.

EDIT:  In the MM is is a little ambiguous, but I read as not a god, but worshiped as one?  What do you think:


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## dave2008 (Jun 18, 2018)

gyor said:


> I hate it, look at deity abilities in 3e and 2e they feel like they have the transformative powers of a God, worthy of the title, 4e and 5e deity stats are just boring monsters that only have combat abilities, and no reality altering power, its aweful.




4e, and to some extent 5e, have different game philosphies.  The stat block in 4e was not intended to represent everything a god (or monster for that matter) could do.  Just what what they thought would be useful in combat.  In 4e gods have the powers and abilities the DM wants them to have, they are not restricted by a stat block.  That is the approach I take for 5e too.

Personally, I love a good all inclusive OP stat block myself


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## UnknownDyson (Jun 18, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> He is an archdevil in 5e lore.  He has power equivalent to a lesser god in 5e lore, but he is not a god.
> 
> EDIT:  In the MM is is a little ambiguous, but I read as not a god, but worshiped as one?  What do you think:
> 
> View attachment 98586




In Forgotten Realms he is a god though, he has been for some time.


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## Mr. Wilson (Jun 18, 2018)

Generally speaking, I think of the stat blocks provided for Tiamat as her Avatar and then it makes much more sense.  

The fact the Demonlords/Arch Devils are so vastly understated and frankly, illogical, has bothered me since OoTA.  Then again, I pretty much think Solo monsters need major design changes to make them actual boss fights.


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## dave2008 (Jun 18, 2018)

UnknownDyson said:


> In Forgotten Realms he is a god though, he has been for some time.




He can be whatever you want.  I was just asking for interpretation on the specific 5e text.  IF someone started with 5e and this is all they had, this is what Asmo would be to them.

I will need to look through MToF to see if it provided any update to his nature.


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## MonsterEnvy (Jun 18, 2018)

SkidAce said:


> Yup!  I'm with you on this one.
> 
> Loved the various conflicts that "Abishai walks into a bar, devils pissed cause they can't order it around, and what does Tiamat want here anyway?" causes.




I prefer the current lore for them. They are outside the normal Devil Hierarchy and can only be commanded by Tiamat and Archdevils. However Archdevils are risking a lot by ordering Abishai around as they may be counteracting Tiamat's or Asmodeus's orders for them. And upsetting those two is not something an Archdevil wants to do.


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## MonsterEnvy (Jun 18, 2018)

gyor said:


> That was silly, along with demoting Lolth, it just doesn't make sense, he commands Archdevils, including those that rule layers of Hell, as well as Gods like Tiamat, he's effectly one of the most powerful Gods in the game and leads the powers and legions of Hell.
> 
> Lolth rules the Demonweb pits and is the head of the Dark Seldarine, is the head God of the Drow, Yolchols, Chitines, Driders and even some evil humaniods in places like Zakhara, I can even see her aquiring Shadar Kai worshippers.
> 
> So imo both she revert to greater God status like in 4e, it makes more sense.




Lolth has never been a greater god except in 4e. And I prefer her as a lesser god so that she is actually reachable.


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## Mirtek (Jun 18, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> Lolth has never been a greater god except in 4e. And I prefer her as a lesser god so that she is actually reachable.



 Wasn't she recognized as a greater deity at the end of the War of the Spider Queen series? That ended in 2005, thus some time before 4th edition.


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## cbwjm (Jun 18, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> He is an archdevil in 5e lore.  He has power equivalent to a lesser god in 5e lore, but he is not a god.
> 
> EDIT:  In the MM is is a little ambiguous, but I read as not a god, but worshiped as one?  What do you think:
> 
> View attachment 98586




That does make me think that he has power equivalent of a lesser god without actually being one. It didn't occur to me to read the MM for more information on him.

I had previously been going off the 5e FR lore where he is still listed as a god. I got even more confused upon reading MtoF where he grants powers to cultists. It might be the whole thing where in the FR he is a god, in Greyhawk, etc, he is still "just" the pre-eminent archdevil.


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## Sword of Spirit (Jun 19, 2018)

Dausuul said:


> How? Without his Wand, Orcus's DPR is half Demogorgon's. He can't even Multiattack.




Yes, that's a good point. I was assuming that without his wand he'd be making punch or claw attacks in place of it (which would probably put him slightly below Demogorgon), not just twiddling his thumbs, but I was thinking about the undead creation abilities and neglected to mention that part.



> Which is why Demogorgon moves it, then uses his "Interact with an object" to pick it up in one of his mouths. Orcus has no way to get it back.
> 
> Now, the range limitation is a big issue. Demogorgon has to start within 80 feet of Orcus to pull it off; he moves 50, uses _telekinesis_, grabs the wand. If Orcus can keep his distance, he can crush Demogorgon with magic and undead.




Yeah, the range issue is the major point. He can only grab it from 30' away, and then would have to keep wrestling with Orcus to try to get it close enough from him to take, and on rounds where he wins he can fly it 40' away from Demogorgon. Is that +1 bonus on the check for Demogorgon going to beat the extra 40' of movement when Orcus wins? I don't know. Swallowing it is a good idea when he gets it close enough. And then we he gets it that close, you'll still need to use the OOtA stats (again, assuming Orcus can punch) for a solid win.



cbwjm said:


> That does make me think that he has power equivalent of a lesser god without actually being one. It didn't occur to me to read the MM for more information on him.
> 
> I had previously been going off the 5e FR lore where he is still listed as a god. I got even more confused upon reading MtoF where he grants powers to cultists. It might be the whole thing where in the FR he is a god, in Greyhawk, etc, he is still "just" the pre-eminent archdevil.




5e is both vague and contradictory on deities. I have read all of the published material about them other than whatever may be in the adventures (though I am familiar with how Tiamat works).

In addition to the unclear and possibly contradictory statements about the divine status or rank of Asmodeus, here are some other contradictions off the top of my head:
-The DMG says Greater Gods are "beyond mortal comprehension" but this is in no way backed up by anything else. Specific greater deities are described interacting with (and even potentially being threatened by) lesser deities in exactly the same way as they were described in previous editions.
-The DMG refers to demi-gods in the literal sense as children of a mortal and god. It says they aren't really divine, can't answer prayers, etc. Then every other product talks about Demigods as a type of deity just a step down from lesser deities, who can do divine stuff, respond to prayers, etc--exactly like previous editions of the game.
-Volo's Guide to Monsters says that Grazz't the Demon Lord (who is not a deity in 5e) has more power than Demigods, and that becoming one would not increase his power.

I think the first thing one has to do to make any sense out of it is to *entirely *ignore what the DMG says in that sidebar on divine ranks. We have Greater, Lesser, and Demi-gods. We don't have Intermediate Deities. We have other powerful beings which aren't deities but are more powerful than demigods. Make out of that what you will.

I finally just decided to create my own philosophy of how to reconcile things (which involves ignoring some elements).


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## gyor (Jun 19, 2018)

cbwjm said:


> That does make me think that he has power equivalent of a lesser god without actually being one. It didn't occur to me to read the MM for more information on him.
> 
> I had previously been going off the 5e FR lore where he is still listed as a god. I got even more confused upon reading MtoF where he grants powers to cultists. It might be the whole thing where in the FR he is a god, in Greyhawk, etc, he is still "just" the pre-eminent archdevil.




 They already retconned that when they put Tiamat in hell.


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## gyor (Jun 19, 2018)

Sword of Spirit said:


> Yes, that's a good point. I was assuming that without his wand he'd be making punch or claw attacks in place of it (which would probably put him slightly below Demogorgon), not just twiddling his thumbs, but I was thinking about the undead creation abilities and neglected to mention that part.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 Actually it does say that Demigods are divine,  they can assend to Godhood with enough worshippers and they have some divine attributes,  but only on one side of their family, so they are the weakest Quasigod. Quasigods (can't grant or hear prayers,  give cleric spells),  but they clearly gain power from being worshipped,  enough that ascending to godhood is possible. 

 And yes Grazzt is powerful enough to kill Demigods and even many Titans. 

 We're does it say demigods can answer prayers and grant cleric spells in clear contradiction of the DMG?


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## Sword of Spirit (Jun 19, 2018)

gyor said:


> Actually it does say that Demigods are divine,  they can assend to Godhood with enough worshippers and they have some divine attributes,  but only on one side of their family




Other 5e sources that mention Demigods entirely dispense with the parentage aspect.



> , so they are the weakest Quasigod. Quasigods (can't grant or hear prayers,  give cleric spells),  but they clearly gain power from being worshipped,  enough that ascending to godhood is possible.
> 
> And yes Grazzt is powerful enough to kill Demigods and even many Titans.
> 
> We're does it say demigods can answer prayers and grant cleric spells in clear contradiction of the DMG?




Volo's Guide to Monsters page 199. Raxivort can hear their prayers, but chooses not respond because of his fear of being found by his enemies.


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## Ganymede81 (Jun 19, 2018)

I don't get the deal here.

Orcus and Demogorgon's stat blocks are conceits designed to facilitate adventures with PCs. They are not biosocial schematics for predicting which demon lord would win in a fight.


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## gyor (Jun 19, 2018)

Sword of Spirit said:


> Other 5e sources that mention Demigods entirely dispense with the parentage aspect.
> 
> 
> 
> Volo's Guide to Monsters page 199. Raxivort can hear their prayers, but chooses not respond because of his fear of being found by his enemies.




 Ah, I think that might be a special case, a side effect of the magic item he used, he's not a normal demigod, or he had enough worshippers to ascend to lesser god status at some point after he's used the magic thimbul, after all he created an entire race to worship him.


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## Sword of Spirit (Jun 19, 2018)

Ganymede81 said:


> I don't get the deal here.
> 
> Orcus and Demogorgon's stat blocks are conceits designed to facilitate adventures with PCs. They are not biosocial schematics for predicting which demon lord would win in a fight.






gyor said:


> Ah, I think that might be a special case, a side effect of the magic item he used, he's not a normal demigod, or he had enough worshippers to ascend to lesser god status at some point after he's used the magic thimbul, after all he created an entire race to worship him.




As I said (on this thread or another), there are other places that back up the same concepts. I don't expect you to just take my word on it, so maybe someone else can remember the other sources. If not, I can always post them in a year or two with the new ones that come out in later books once I've run across them again while going through the books.


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## neogod22 (Jun 19, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> He is an archdevil in 5e lore.  He has power equivalent to a lesser god in 5e lore, but he is not a god.
> 
> EDIT:  In the MM is is a little ambiguous, but I read as not a god, but worshiped as one?  What do you think:
> 
> View attachment 98586



What lore are you talking about?  He is listed as a Greater God since 3e.  If you consider, he is the only God to rule an entire plane of existence,  he would be the 2nd most powerful God in D&D of the 1st is AO.


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## neogod22 (Jun 19, 2018)

The problem with Asmodeous is that most people, Gods and the Archdevils included cant comprehend how powerful he is, because he doesn't show it the way other gods do.  The Archdevils even tried rebelling and over throwing him and was unsuccessful.    It there are 3 things that makes him more powerful than anyone realizes.
1. Like I said in my last post, he rules ALL 9 PLANES of Hell.  Tiamat is imprisoned on the 1st plane.  All other gods either rule part of or a complete level on a plane, but never the whole thing.  
2. He took the Patronage of Tieflings (whether they like it or not).  Usually creator races are Greater Gods.  While he created tieflings from humans, they are still their own distinct race. 
3. He bleeds pit fiends.  When Asmodeous was cast out and fell into hell.  He has had permanent wounds on his body that never healed.  Each drop of blood that falls from these wounds creates a pit fiend.  The most powerful of ordinary devils.  Think about that, he bleeds CR20 Creatures.


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## Mirtek (Jun 19, 2018)

neogod22 said:


> What lore are you talking about?  He is listed as a Greater God since 3e.  If you consider, he is the only God to rule an entire plane of existence,  he would be the 2nd most powerful God in D&D of the 1st is AO.



Nope, he was still a mere archfiend in 3e. There was a single 2e source, which stood a little bit outside of all commonly shared setting and planescape lore, that stated him to be a greater deity. Only in 4e was he then officially recognized as a greater deity and since the 5e MM this has been revoked again.

As to the story side, he ascended when he apparently consumed a comatose deity, but in the end said deity was not quite dead yet and when he awoke and broke free of Asmodeus, the later lost a big chunk of his stolen divine power with his unwilling meal.


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## toucanbuzz (Jun 19, 2018)

I hated how, in _Out of the Abyss_ (which we played all the way through), demon lords were nerfed down to big bags of hit points. In prior editions, they had a horde of spells and resistances to draw upon, cementing their authority as the bad-asses they should be. In the adventure, there's a literary scene where Yeenoghu takes down a Goristro with nary a scratch. On paper, that doesn't work.

In our campaign, for the Out of the Abyss finale, I went for the epic option with modifications to make the demon lords reflective of their bad ass status:[sblock]I had the players each take command of a demon lord (I took Demogorgon), and we duked it out on the streets of Menzoberranzan. I buffed them to max hp, because they're demon lords, not average joes, and added some spell abilities they had in older editions. I also made them immune to weapons below +2, and resistant unless +3. Each demon lords' weapon (and Demogorgon's tentacles) acted as +3 weapons.  The players obliged with doing their best to win. Notably, spell use was mostly irrelevant as the demon lords' saves are just too good, and I gave tips on each demon lords' sheets about what they knew about their opponents (e.g. don't waste time with illusions).[/sblock]

So in the above spoiler, coincidentally on topic, Demogorgon and Orcus squared off. On the other side of town, mortal enemies Yeenoghu and Baphomet met head to head, and Graz'zt was the odd man out, playing spoiler to Orcus and Demogorgon. Since every demon lord hates Orcus, Graz'zt took pot shots, letting Demogorgon take a few hits too. Once he's in range, Demogorgon is just plain nasty, with or without modifications. Yeenoghu obliterated Bahpomet (speaking of nasty, that flail...), and Orcus fell to Demogorgon. Graz'zt then went all-out offense (his blade can dish it out), but Demogorgon was wearing him down. Yeenoghu, in a blood lust, charged across the field, finished off Graz'zt, then....drum roll, finished off Demogorgon. Having just become chief demon lord, all that stood in his way was a band of heroes... (and yeah, it was brutal but they pulled it off. _Note to self_: demon lords are extremely vulnerable to magic missile. Without true magic resistance, they're pretty powerless to someone zapping them down with a Wand. _Note to self_: Wands of Magic Missile are extremely powerful.)


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## gyor (Jun 19, 2018)

Mirtek said:


> Nope, he was still a mere archfiend in 3e. There was a single 2e source, which stood a little bit outside of all commonly shared setting and planescape lore, that stated him to be a greater deity. Only in 4e was he then officially recognized as a greater deity and since the 5e MM this has been revoked again.
> 
> As to the story side, he ascended when he apparently consumed a comatose deity, but in the end said deity was not quite dead yet and when he awoke and broke free of Asmodeus, the later lost a big chunk of his stolen divine power with his unwilling meal.




 It hasn't revoked his power,  according to the SCAG he's still a God in FR,  the MM only says the power of a lesser God,  because Asmodeaus power level varies by Setting,  in FR and Nentir Vale he's a greater god,  in Eberron he's not a God at all,  just an Archfiends.


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## Mirtek (Jun 20, 2018)

> On paper, that doesn't work.



 it aktuell does due to immunity to non magical weapons. Poor goristros hits simply do not count against Y


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## Mirtek (Jun 20, 2018)

gyor said:


> It hasn't revoked his power,  according to the SCAG he's still a God in FR,  the MM only says the power of a lesser God,  because Asmodeaus power level varies by Setting,  in FR and Nentir Vale he's a greater god,  in Eberron he's not a God at all,  just an Archfiends.



Nope, he lost the greater Level in 5e FR and is now "only" a deity without the greater

Also since we're fortunally back to the one multiverse to House all settings, the Level is equal in all settings, aß there is only one Single entity. It only varies how well known an entity is in a given settings


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## UnknownDyson (Jun 20, 2018)

Mirtek said:


> Nope, he lost the greater Level in 5e FR and is now "only" a deity without the greater
> 
> Also since we're fortunally back to the one multiverse to House all settings, the Level is equal in all settings, aß there is only one Single entity. It only varies how well known an entity is in a given settings




Do you have a source for that information? This sounds like headcannon.


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## Mirtek (Jun 20, 2018)

UnknownDyson said:


> Do you have a source for that information? This sounds like headcannon.



There is the MM that once again speaks for the d&d multiverse and in-universe this was dealt with at the conclusion of the brimstone angels series


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## MonsterEnvy (Jun 20, 2018)

Mirtek said:


> Nope, he lost the greater Level in 5e FR and is now "only" a deity without the greater
> 
> Also since we're fortunally back to the one multiverse to House all settings, the Level is equal in all settings, aß there is only one Single entity. It only varies how well known an entity is in a given settings




Note quite it says that while their is only a single entity, their power level is not equal. The DMG says "Some gods are worshiped on multiple worlds and have a different rank on each world, depending on their influence there."

For example Tiamat as Takhisis is a lesser god in most worlds, but a greater god in Dragonlance.


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## Mirtek (Jun 20, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> Note quite it says that while their is only a single entity, their power level is not equal. The DMG says "Some gods are worshiped on multiple worlds and have a different rank on each world, depending on their influence there."
> 
> For example Tiamat as Takhisis is a lesser god in most worlds, but a greater god in Dragonlance.



Has she officially be retconned to be one and the same? In previous editions they were two seperate entities, not just two aliases of the dame deity.

Even so Tiamat is not in Krynn (or Oerth or Faerun), she is influencing matters in Krynn and Oerth and Toril all from sitting in her lair on Avernus. She does not suddenly gain more AC or hp just because the party that managed to attack her in her lair plane shifted from Krynn instead of going to Oerth first.


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## cbwjm (Jun 21, 2018)

Mirtek said:


> Has she officially be retconned to be one and the same? In previous editions they were two seperate entities, not just two aliases of the dame deity.
> 
> Even so Tiamat is not in Krynn (or Oerth or Faerun), she is influencing matters in Krynn and Oerth and Toril all from sitting in her lair on Avernus. She does not suddenly gain more AC or hp just because the party that managed to attack her in her lair plane shifted from Krynn instead of going to Oerth first.



I don't know of any official retcon or explanation (although on writing this, maybe the 1e dragonlance adventures mentioned it?), I always treated them both as separate entities that shared similar iconography the same as I do with Paladine and Bahamut. As is, she's dead now and Paladine is no longer a god unless all of this gets ignored in 5e which could happen considering how many FR gods have come back in the past.


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## Sword of Spirit (Jun 21, 2018)

The only way to reconcile the idea of Tiamat (a lesser god afraid of Asmodeus) as Takhisis (a greater creator god and one of the three (not counting the High God or Chaos) most powerful deities of Krynn) is to invoke the sidebar on divine ranks and say that _Tiamat is an avatar of Takhisis_. In my estimation, a permanent avatar who has gained at least a degree of  independence, since she lives somewhere different and interacts with the rest of the multiverse, while Takhisis doesn’t bother with any place but Krynn.


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## cbwjm (Jun 21, 2018)

I know imagine Takhisis rumagging through sets of cosmic scale drawers, wardrobes, and cupboards looking for her misplaced avatar that she swears she had a minute ago.


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## Mouseferatu (Jun 24, 2018)

I hate to say it--because I love Demogorgon, and I love most of what I've read of MToF--but the more I look at it, the more I feel like Demogorgon just isn't up to snuff in 5E.

First off, he's among the least interesting of the Demon Lords in terms of combat. Nearly all of them have really interesting tricks they can pull. The only thing Demogorgon has that even leans in that direction is his trio of gaze attacks.

And those are made a joke by the whole "You can avert your gaze to automatically succeed" thing. Making a gaze attack takes up Demogorgon's entire action. It's not a bonus; it's not something he can do as part of multiattack. He looks at you, you look away, his turn is over. Yes, there are the various advantage/disadvantage issues I mentioned previously, but that's not really enough when dealing with one character out of an entire party.

"Oh, but he can still take legendary actions!"

Yeah. Two. Not the three that are standard to nearly all legendary creatures. Two. One of which is... Another gaze attack that can be looked away from.

Yes, as the DM, I can adjust. I'm very well aware. I'd still be happier if the Prince of Demons actually lived up to the name as written.


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## MonsterEnvy (Jun 24, 2018)

Sword of Spirit said:


> The only way to reconcile the idea of Tiamat (a lesser god afraid of Asmodeus) as Takhisis (a greater creator god and one of the three (not counting the High God or Chaos) most powerful deities of Krynn) is to invoke the sidebar on divine ranks and say that _Tiamat is an avatar of Takhisis_. In my estimation, a permanent avatar who has gained at least a degree of  independence, since she lives somewhere different and interacts with the rest of the multiverse, while Takhisis doesn’t bother with any place but Krynn.




From the DMG



> The dragon essence within the orb might want many things: the annihilation of a particular people, freedom from the orb, to spread suffering in the world, to advance the worship of Takhisis (Tiamat’s name on Krynn), or something else the DM decides.




The Sidebar explains it simply Deities can have different Divine Ranks on different worlds. Tiamat is a Greater God in Kyrnn, but a lesser god most elsewhere. As a result she is stronger there. 



Mouseferatu said:


> I hate to say it--because I love Demogorgon, and I love most of what I've read of MToF--but the more I look at it, the more I feel like Demogorgon just isn't up to snuff in 5E.
> 
> First off, he's among the least interesting of the Demon Lords in terms of combat. Nearly all of them have really interesting tricks they can pull. The only thing Demogorgon has that even leans in that direction is his trio of gaze attacks.
> 
> ...




Thats why I buffed Demogorgon and gave him his gazes as part of his multi attack.


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## Mirtek (Jun 24, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> The Sidebar explains it simply Deities can have different Divine Ranks on different worlds. Tiamat is a Greater God in Kyrnn, but a lesser god most elsewhere. As a result she is stronger there.



 Which unforutnately does not explain anything. Since there is only one Tiamat, she can have only one true rank if you go to visit her in her true form. 

So either she's tuly a greater deity but her divien connections to Oerth and Toril are still not well etablished and she can't send much power through. Or she's truly a lesser deity (which all points to), and there's a special reason power she sends to Krynn is multiplied. However this still means if some party from Krynn prepared to battle a greater power planeshifts to her lair, they're in for a pleasant surprice finding her much weaker than expected.

However, has Takhisis rank in 5e being stated? If 5e simply says she's a lesser deity too, we don't have to find any explanations anyway.


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## Sébastien Urbanek (Jul 9, 2018)

I was very upset to see the stat blocks of the demon lords. In the MM the demons can, as a variant summon other demons but demon lords can't do this...they can't summon thrall to help them in a fight...the same for the archdevils...


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## cbwjm (Jul 9, 2018)

SÃ[emoji767 said:
			
		

> bastien Urbanek;7459547]I was very upset to see the stat blocks of the demon lords. In the MM the demons can, as a variant summon other demons but demon lords can't do this...they can't summon thrall to help them in a fight...the same for the archdevils...



Of course they can. Any DM that decides they can summon in some demons can just add that to the demon lord or archdevil.


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## Eric V (Jul 9, 2018)

cbwjm said:


> Of course they can. Any DM that decides they can summon in some demons can just add that to the demon lord or archdevil.




...

Pretty sure he's talking about the stats of the Demon Lord as designed by the designers of the game, found in the product he bought.

Thank you for the reminder that the DM can do anything, though.


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## Bacon Bits (Jul 9, 2018)

If I recall the lore correctly, Orcus with his wand has always been more than a match for Demogorgon.  The problems come from:


 Orcus often doesn't have his wand.  It's been lost/stolen/hidden/etc. many times.
 Demons hate undead, so Orcus has far fewer demons that follow him. Orcus has to rely on the undead because he can't attract fiends. Note that Orcus hates undead, as well.
 Demons also really respect Demogorgon and follow him in droves.

So, individually, Orcus with his wand can probably defeat Demogorgon, but Orcus will never get the chance to prove it.


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## Sword of Spirit (Jul 9, 2018)

My current thoughts on how to handle it are:

1) Add his gaze to Multiattack
2) 3 Legendary actions
3) Teleport 120' as a legendary action option

With the gaze not taking his attacks, that leaves it open to just make an opponent fight him blind, so a boost (slight against Orcus) to his dpr and effective hp.

3 legendary actions because the assumed reason for only 2 was not allowing heads to look at more than two people--which doesn't even work because he can use his action to also aim a head. So this allows him to blind more opponents.

Teleport because he can't fly, and the archdevils can teleport.

This doesn't make him an autowin against Orcus by any means, but it makes him a much better match, and makes it harder for anyone to cheese victories from him due to unnecessary limitations.


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## Gwarok (Jul 9, 2018)

CTurbo said:


> Orcus's 500hp undead is his most OP feature
> 
> Pretty sure neither of them want a piece of my Halfing Frenzy Barb with a Light Hammer though lol




Yea, the first time I saw that I thought about Orcus plus 3 Liches.   The Liches just cast Fly and hammer Demogorgon with Magic Missiles, starting with their 9th level slots and working their way down.  That's 115.5hp on the first round, ~ 105hp on the second, etc...., with Orcus cleaning his nails with an emery board, looking up occasionally to see if his Liches are done yet.  

That's when it hit me that if I was basically using Demon Prince's like UFC fighters in a ring I'm probably failing miserably at being a DM.


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## cbwjm (Jul 9, 2018)

Eric V said:


> ...
> 
> Pretty sure he's talking about the stats of the Demon Lord as designed by the designers of the game, found in the product he bought.
> 
> Thank you for the reminder that the DM can do anything, though.




You're welcome. Some people seem to forget.


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## Eric V (Jul 9, 2018)

cbwjm said:


> You're welcome. Some people seem to forget.




Yeah, no one's forgetting anything.


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## Gwarok (Jul 9, 2018)

Mouseferatu said:


> I hate to say it--because I love Demogorgon, and I love most of what I've read of MToF--but the more I look at it, the more I feel like Demogorgon just isn't up to snuff in 5E.
> 
> First off, he's among the least interesting of the Demon Lords in terms of combat. Nearly all of them have really interesting tricks they can pull. The only thing Demogorgon has that even leans in that direction is his trio of gaze attacks.
> 
> ...




Yea, they way underpowered the BBEG's in there, with the exception of Zariel, or whoever that fallen angel lady is, she's pretty fierce.   But the others, Bel for instance?  He's got less than 200hp, but he's supposed to be one of the fiercest warriors in Hell, a major war leader?  I ran a straight up fight between him and a hypothetical 15th Paladin version of the Paladin in my group.  The paladin didn't beat him.   He WORKED him in 3 of 3 arena style matches.  I'm sure many will say that isn't how he would be played in a game, and they'd be right, but that's sorta missing the point.   That, and also Prot vs. Evil is way overpowered for a 1st level spell  

That being said, I really don't think they playtested the final versions much, or at least want 20th level Characters to be considered if not as powerful at least in the same league as Arch Devils and Demon Princes.   But I am shocked at how little magic a lot of powerful demons and devils have at their disposal.   It is hard not to simply see them as a brute squad.   A standard issue Balor has exactly no magic at it's disposal.  It's a fighter with wings.   You have to customize them if you want some flavor.   Me, I give them X amount of 3/day spells of level 5 or lower, and Y amount of 1/day spells of 6th-9th.   What those spells are exactly depends on it's background.   Balors that work for Orcus might have Contagion and Circle of Death, while Balor of Yeenoghu can cast Conjure Animals but it just makes Gnolls show up.   The Planetars and Solars also have a purpose.   The ones in charge of mortal revelations casts Dream, the ones sent to punish cities can cast Earthquake or even Meteor Swarm at will.


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## Emerikol (Jul 10, 2018)

In 1e, Demogorgon was the meanest head to head monster of them all in my opinion.  I believe that is his role whereas Orcus power is both personal but also organizational.  I think anyone who gets within 10 feet of Demogorgon shouldn't live.  

Of course, in 1e all Devils and Demons of any sort of rank at all could teleport at will so it is really hard to kill them if they have enough hit points to take a shot.


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