# what should the wizard's subclasses be?



## Mind of tempest (Dec 8, 2022)

I have seen people complain about the concepts of the wizard's subclasses, what should the basic ideas be instead as I myself can't think of any?


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## nevin (Dec 8, 2022)

None


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## Greg Benage (Dec 8, 2022)

Scribe, War Magic, Elementalist, Summoner? Something like that. Maybe we hate summoning, so swap Bladesinger in there.


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## Mind of tempest (Dec 8, 2022)

nevin said:


> None



look it needs sub-classes and hell will become the garden of Eden before wotc gets rid of wizards so you got any idea beyond no?


Greg Benage said:


> Scribe, War Magic, Elementalist, Summoner? Something like that. Maybe we hate summoning, so swap Bladesinger in there.



I meant what are their niches and theme not just ideas we already have?
why those sub classes?


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## Scribe (Dec 8, 2022)

Scribe - "All the spells!"
War Caster - "All the explosions!"
Bladesinger - "Not all Elves!"
Elementalist - "Forces of Nature!"

Oh, and take away cantrips, and make them have to find/discover spells, and you cannot just use slots all random like.

There ya go, Wizards brought back down to earth.


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## DND_Reborn (Dec 8, 2022)

None. Remove subclasses entirely. They do nothing but decrease player imagination and add power/features. (There is some merit in an archetype design to help players define a direction for their PC, _if they really need one_.)

Wizards, more so than probably than any other class, can define itself by their spell selection, focusing on utility, combat, summoning, or whatever--including a "general" practitioner.

Now, if you _want_ subclasses:

Combat - focuses on combat spells, dealing massive damage or protecting others
Lore - desires to uncover secrets and gain knowledge
Specialist - studies one aspect (school?) of magic to the determent of others
Summoner - uses conjured creatures in whatever role (servants, combatants, etc.)
Utility - emphasis on making adventuring (general life) easier

I would stay away from "themes" (e.g. necromancer, firemage, etc.) and allow those to develop by spell choice and role-play. A "Necromancer" could be accomplished either via Combat, Lore, Summoner easily.


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## EzekielRaiden (Dec 8, 2022)

Mind of tempest said:


> I have seen people complain about the concepts of the wizard's subclasses, what should the basic ideas be instead as I myself can't think of any?



Personally, I think "Specialist Wizard" should be _one_ subclass. Not _eight_. The initial features would be common to nearly all Wizards anyway, so you'd just need to specify the individual features for each school.

Then, from there, you'd add _thematic_ subclass options instead. Bladesinger is decent. Some kind of rune-master would be cool. Summoner is always a good one in my book (though I prefer the Charisma flavor thereof; it makes more sense to me that you need to either persuade or intimidate beings into working for you.) The Order of Scribes is a good close-to-generalist option. Something to do with mathematics and astronomy would be nice. Wu Jen, or some other "elemental focus"/_feng shui_ practitioner, would be a solid thematic fit.

"Specialist Wizard," by these lights, would be the "ultra classic but not very flavorful" option, parallel to Life Cleric, Champion Fighter, or Thief Rogue.


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## Scribe (Dec 8, 2022)

DND_Reborn said:


> None. Remove subclasses entirely. They do nothing but decrease player imagination and add power/features. (There is some merit in an archetype design to help players define a direction for their PC, _if they really need one_.)
> 
> Wizards, more so than probably than any other class, can define itself by their spell selection, focusing on utility, combat, summoning, or whatever--including a "general" practitioner.
> 
> ...


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## Tales and Chronicles (Dec 8, 2022)

Beguiler: illusion and enchantment
Warmage: armored anti-magic, single target damage or terrain DOT
Elementalist: Elemental boom boom spells
Scholar: ritualist ++, skills, all them spells
Conjurer: summon and planar mobility/protection


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## DND_Reborn (Dec 8, 2022)

Scribe said:


>



This makes no sense to me at all.


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## Vaalingrade (Dec 8, 2022)

*War Mage*
ISO Standard Blaster for those who want to play wizard wrong.

*Ritualist*
Make ritual interesting again, dang it!

*Necromancer / Illusionist*
The trad schools that deserve to continue existing, both require more than just spells to follow through with the promise of their premise. Should be classes on their own, but we can't have nice things.


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## Scribe (Dec 8, 2022)

DND_Reborn said:


> This makes no sense to me at all.



Subclasses/PrC, are just part of the game and (likely) have a massively favorable view among the playerbase.


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## DND_Reborn (Dec 8, 2022)

Scribe said:


> Subclasses/PrC, are just part of the game and (likely) have a massively favorable view among the playerbase.



They are entirely unnecessary, but that isn't the focus of the thread and I don't want to derail it further.


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## EzekielRaiden (Dec 8, 2022)

Scribe said:


> Subclasses/PrC, are just part of the game and (likely) have a massively favorable view among the playerbase.



Don't bother. They basically play a home-made "5e Pathfinder" at this point anyway, with more than half the classes heavily reworked AIUI.


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## Greg Benage (Dec 8, 2022)

Mind of tempest said:


> I meant what are their niches and theme not just ideas we already have?
> why those sub classes?



"My t-shirt is raising a lot of questions already answered by the shirt."

As to why, they seem to cover a lot of iconic wizard archetypes. I also sense that I've stepped into some perilous territory of which I was unaware, so I think I'll slink back out.


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## Shiroiken (Dec 8, 2022)

Assuming they keep to only 4 for 1D&D, I'd suggest the following as the most obvious choices:


Warmage - combat caster; focuses on Abjurations and Evocations
Beguiler - combination of Enchanter and Illusionist
Summoner - creates and boosts allies; possibly includes transmutation
The last spot is trickier, as I could see a Seer or Necromancer. Probably best to do Seer, with Necromancer as a DMG option.


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## Cadence (Dec 8, 2022)

Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard

(I kid .. kind of).

Alchemist, Battlemage, Rune Caster, School Specialist


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## Deekin (Dec 9, 2022)

Knowing the design team?

Bladesinger ( wizard with access to Warrior group special features)

Mystic Theruge (Wizard with access to priest group special feature and divine/primal spell lists)

Lore Master (Wizard with extra proficency and Expertise) 

School Specialist ( the existing PHB subclasses but lumped into one overarching subclass)


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## NotAYakk (Dec 9, 2022)

While I get the school specialist as an overaching thing, it doesn't work.

A necromancer should be more than a generic "specialist of necromancy spells".  The fun parts of abjurer and necromancer aren't those that are generic "you are better at spells of school X by this factor", but are thematically tied to abjuration and necromancy (and to the spells in question!  Just not generically).


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## EzekielRaiden (Dec 9, 2022)

NotAYakk said:


> While I get the school specialist as an overaching thing, it doesn't work.
> 
> A necromancer should be more than a generic "specialist of necromancy spells".  The fun parts of abjurer and necromancer aren't those that are generic "you are better at spells of school X by this factor", but are thematically tied to abjuration and necromancy (and to the spells in question!  Just not generically).



What makes you think that would go away? Those school-specific things would just be "consult table for which feature you get at level X, based on the school you chose." Possibly streamlined a little to conserve space.


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## NotAYakk (Dec 9, 2022)

Then why are they one subclass?

There is little in common between them.


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## EzekielRaiden (Dec 9, 2022)

NotAYakk said:


> Then why are they one subclass?
> 
> There is little in common between them.



Because they share the same fundamental idea, specializing in a specific school, and because this would tamp down the "Wizard has _eight freaking PHB subclasses_" thing.

It's more organizational than mechanical. I might still trim some of the existing things down mildly, or make them "internally" scaling (that is, the ability gained at level X specifically says that at level Y you get more benefits, without needing to waste page space on a whole separate named subclass feature.)


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## Vaalingrade (Dec 10, 2022)

I'd much rather abandon spell schools than crush them all into one subclass.


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## Deekin (Dec 10, 2022)

When I say One Subclass, I mean something like this:

*Wizard: School Master*
_Boring Fluff Text_

*School Savant*
When you select this subclass at level X, choose one school of magic for you to master.  The gold and time you must spend to copy a spell into your spellbook from that school is halved.

*School Masters*
At Xnd Level, you gain a special form of magic based on what school you chose to master as part of School Savant 

If you chose abjuration, you gain Arcane Ward, if you chose Conjuration, gain Minor Conjuration. If you chose Divination, you gain Portent. If you chose Enchantment, you gain Hypnotic Gaze. If you Chose Evocation, you gain sculpt spell. If you chose illusion, you gain Improved Minor Illusion. If you chose Necromancy, you gain Grim Harvest. If you chose Transmutation, you gain Minor Alchemy.

ect  ect


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## EzekielRaiden (Dec 10, 2022)

Deekin said:


> When I say One Subclass, I mean something like this:
> 
> *Wizard: School Master*
> _Boring Fluff Text_
> ...



Precisely. I would present it more like this though.



Spoiler: Wizard writeup snop



*Wizard: School Specialist*
_Explanatory Fluff Text_

*School Savant*
When you select this subclass at level X, choose one school of magic to specialize in: Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, or Transmutation. The gold and time you must spend to copy a spell into your spellbook from that school is halved.

*Specialist Focus*
When you reach level N, you gain a School Specialist feature associated with the school you chose for School Savant. Consult the table below. The mechanics for these features are listed at the end of this section.

*School**Feature*AbjurationArcane WardConjurationMinor ConjurationDivinationPortentEnchantmentHypnotic GazeEvocationSculpt SpellsIllusionImproved Minor IllusionNecromancyGrim HarvestTransmutationMinor Alchemy
(etc. for remaining subclass features--Wizards don't get that many)

We already have the Warlock to precedent a list of class features at the end. These are more rigidly defined--which seems reasonable for the implicitly hidebound Wizard.

I would rework some of them, because some are weak or otherwise not very good, while others are quite strong (particularly Divination)--despite my usual criticism of Wizards, I would in fact actually like to see the subclass features _brought up_ to the level of Portent, rather than bringing things down. But that's because I want "being a Wizard" to be more important than "I can cast a zillion powerful spells."


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## Mind of tempest (Dec 10, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> I'd much rather abandon spell schools than crush them all into one subclass.



then what should replace them?


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## CreamCloud0 (Dec 10, 2022)

Mind of tempest said:


> then what should replace them?



i suggested this in the survivor companion thread a bit back but more relevant to this discussion

*The Specialist:* further reduces capacity for learning/casting from banned spell schools than standard in exchange for bonuses to learning/casting from a specific school(s).
*The Generalist:* removes limitations for learning banned schools in exchange for mid-tier access across the board.
*The Librarian:* reduced number of spell slots in exchange for extra knowledge proficiencies and bonuses to knowledge checks.
*The Researcher:* low number of spells inherently known but reduced costs to transcribing new spells and creating spell scrolls.
*The Pioneer:* limited access to metamagics and/or divine/primal magics.
*The Battlemage:* focus on combat magics, armour proficiencies and war casting.
*The Supporter:* limited combat magics learnt but large number and access to utility, ritual and support spells.


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## Frozen_Heart (Dec 10, 2022)

DND_Reborn said:


> None. Remove subclasses entirely. They do nothing but decrease player imagination and add power/features. (There is some merit in an archetype design to help players define a direction for their PC, _if they really need one_.)
> 
> Wizards, more so than probably than any other class, can define itself by their spell selection, focusing on utility, combat, summoning, or whatever--including a "general" practitioner.
> 
> ...



If subclasses got removed, I'd want a huge amount more classes instead.


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## DND_Reborn (Dec 10, 2022)

Frozen_Heart said:


> If subclasses got removed, I'd want a huge amount more classes instead.



I understand why, but don't agree for the reasons stated in my first post. To avoid thread derailing, I'll leave it at that. If you want a discussing about it, feel free to message me.


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## UngeheuerLich (Dec 10, 2022)

DND_Reborn said:


> I understand why, but don't agree for the reasons stated in my first post. To avoid thread derailing, I'll leave it at that. If you want a discussing about it, feel free to message me.




I think, that ship has sailed in 5e and OneDnD and for good reason.

But there are a lot of DnD games that don't use subclasses... so you might be happy with one of thoses...

but then, there are class kits in 2e, archetypes in pathfinder, prestige classes in 3e and pathfinder, so actually this ship has sailed loooooong ago.

Edit: one thing I have to admit is, that one subclass should be the default and just enhance the bas class features without a twist. And as we can extrapolate from the classes we have seen already, and from what Crawford has said in the video, the designers do agree.
So chances are that if you just use the SRD, you will get exactly what you want.


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## DND_Reborn (Dec 10, 2022)

UngeheuerLich said:


> I think, that ship has sailed in 5e and OneDnD and for good reason.
> 
> But there are a lot of DnD games that don't use subclasses... so you might be happy with one of thoses...
> 
> but then, there are class kits in 2e, archetypes in pathfinder, prestige classes in 3e and pathfinder, so actually this ship has sailed loooooong ago.



Yeah, it has sailed for certain, but for the same reason I was never a fan of kits in 2E, either. My groups play 5E, so I am basically stuck with it.



UngeheuerLich said:


> Edit: one thing I have to admit is, that one subclass should be the default and just enhance the bas class features without a twist. And as we can extrapolate from the classes we have seen already, and from what Crawford has said in the video, the designers do agree.
> So chances are that if you just use the SRD, you will get exactly what you want.



Honestly, I commonly just go with the defaults or popular options, but most of the time feel like they are just mechanical benefits which either I don't need or _should_ be baked into classes.

Take Frenzy for the Barbarian Beserker. Why can't _any_ warrior type use a bonus action to gain an additional attack with the weapon they have when you can make a second weapon attack via TWF and your bonus action. Even if the second attack was with disadvantage if you used your bonus action? It could still involve a level of Exhaustion even if you wanted it to really represent that "extra effort" concept.

Another example is Polearm Master. Using your bonus action to make the attack with the other end is hardly different from TWF either. Even using your reaction when a creature enters your reach can be done via the Ready Action on the prior turn.

Many other things in subclasses or 5E mechanics should be simply part of the system IMO.


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## ECMO3 (Dec 10, 2022)

Mind of tempest said:


> I have seen people complain about the concepts of the wizard's subclasses, what should the basic ideas be instead as I myself can't think of any?



I like the subclasses they have now except Chronogy and Graviturgy.  Some of them should gets some boosts to be brought up to the level of the best.

I also think Wizards who specialize is spell schools (necromancy, evocation, enchantment ...) should have access to every spell from those schools from all classes.  They should be considered Wizard spells for Wizards of those schools.

The thematic elements behind this are they studied that spell school, even if a spell is only god-granted they know enough about bending the magic to their will  so they can fake it.


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## BookTenTiger (Dec 10, 2022)

If I were a designer, I'd stick to the classic archetypes of wizards in fantasy literature and pop culture. I'd probably do something like:

The Sojourner - a wizard who has traveled vastly, collecting a variety of magic and martial skills. Gandalf, Merlin...

The Academic - a wizard who prefers the hallways of a library to those of a dungeon, but ventures out to collect and spread knowledge. Dumbledore.

The Mystic - a wizard whose knowledge comes from self-study, often connected to the land, tradition, and deals with supernatural creatures. Witches, herbalists, etc.

The War Wizard - a wizard who makes things go boom. Magic the Gathering style wizard.


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## Yaarel (Dec 10, 2022)

If the Wizard has four subclasses, the important ones are:

• Evoker
• Illusionist
• Transmuter
• Gish (Bladesinger)



I would even go farther.

Remove Necromancy and give it to Cleric and Warlock.
Remove Enchantment and give it to Bard and Warlock.
Remove Divination and give it Cleric and Bard.

The schools that remain focus on the Wizard doing the magic of creation.


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## Charlaquin (Dec 10, 2022)

Scribe said:


> Scribe - "All the spells!"
> War Caster - "All the explosions!"
> Bladesinger - "Not all Elves!"
> Elementalist - "Forces of Nature!"



I like these, though I would probably swap elementalist for Summoner - “All the minions!” Then add a Necromancer - “All the edge!” in the DMG.


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## Frozen_Heart (Dec 10, 2022)

Charlaquin said:


> I like these, though I would probably swap elementalist for Summoner - “All the minions!” Then add a Necromancer - “All the edge!” in the DMG.



I'd like to see summoner as its own class, like the pathfinder 2e summoner.

Then again I've always thought that name was poor for it. It's more of a pet/mount class than a traditional summoner. So maybe there is room for both.


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## Minigiant (Dec 10, 2022)

Bladesinger: More martial wizard
Scribe: Pure caster 
Mind Mage: Specializes in divination and enchantment
Nethermancer: Specializes in illusion and nercomancy
Summoner: Specializes in conjuration and transmutation
Warmage: Specializes in abjuration and evocation


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## Mind of tempest (Dec 10, 2022)

Minigiant said:


> Bladesinger: More martial wizard
> Scribe: Pure caster
> Mind Mage: Specializes in divination and enchantment
> Nethermancer: Specializes in illusion and nercomancy
> ...



yeah, mind mage and summoner see odd combos as they do not feel right, secondly how would you make scribe even feel interesting as it would just be hyper generic?


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## Minigiant (Dec 10, 2022)

Mind of tempest said:


> yeah, mind mage and summoner see odd combos as they do not feel right, secondly how would you make scribe even feel interesting as it would just be hyper generic?



In most games, summoners focus on summons (conjuration) and physically buffing them (transmutation). The 5e conjurer and necromancer do that.


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## Yaarel (Dec 10, 2022)

The summoner is pretty much what the words "sorcerer" and "sorcery" mean.

If the character wants to fly, they summon an Air Elemental to carry them. If the character wants to divinate information, they summon an Imp to go spy for them. And so on.

A Summoner is a solid class concept. Elric of Melnibone is a good fictional example of one.


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## Galandris (Dec 10, 2022)

CreamCloud0 said:


> i suggested this in the survivor companion thread a bit back but more relevant to this discussion
> 
> *The Specialist:* further reduces capacity for learning/casting from banned spell schools than standard in exchange for bonuses to learning/casting from a specific school(s).
> *The Generalist:* removes limitations for learning banned schools in exchange for mid-tier access across the board.
> ...




*The Quadratic: *all of the above.


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## Lojaan (Dec 11, 2022)

Uuuummmmmm I like;

War Wizard (battle magic focus)
Illusionist (not just illusion but all rogue/trickery)
Necromancer (a solid concept and too fun to leave out)
Bladesinger


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## Incenjucar (Dec 11, 2022)

Perhaps something to reverse some of the core issues with the class.

Subclass that allows allies to function as familiars so spells can be cast through them, making them strategically relevant.

Subclass that can spontaneously burn spells memorized and slots to provide buffs to allies based on the spell type.

Subclass that can charge spells to be harder to resist if allies can keep a target locked down.

Subclass that can give spells to others to use like scrolls.


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## EzekielRaiden (Dec 11, 2022)

Yaarel said:


> The summoner is pretty much what the words "sorcerer" and "sorcery" mean.



Ehhhhh...not really, but sort of? "Sorcery" mostly meant reading (and influencing) the future. "Sorcerer" does have some associations with calling up spirits, but still retains more force in terms of casting lots than calling up soldiers. Think the kind of stuff Prospero does in _The Tempest,_ where it is implied that Prospero himself has almost no mojo, and instead that it is spirits bound to his service which perform the various magical deeds.

Ironically, "wizard" by comparison is generally the less powerful of the two in fiction and historical usage. A sorcerer was a powerful, usually evil, practitioner of magic. A wizard could go either way and tended to be more limited. D&D has so successfully inverted this that it can be hard for those who grew up with D&D to think of it that way.


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## EzekielRaiden (Dec 11, 2022)

Incenjucar said:


> Perhaps something to reverse some of the core issues with the class.
> 
> Subclass that allows allies to function as familiars so spells can be cast through them, making them strategically relevant.
> 
> ...



In order, these sound to me like

Divination (or possibly Conjuration at a stretch)
Transmutation and/or Enchantment
Illusion and/or Enchantment
Enhanced Order of Scribes


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## Yaarel (Dec 11, 2022)

EzekielRaiden said:


> Ehhhhh...not really, but sort of? "Sorcery" mostly meant reading (and influencing) the future. "Sorcerer" does have some associations with calling up spirits, but still retains more force in terms of casting lots than calling up soldiers. Think the kind of stuff Prospero does in _The Tempest,_ where it is implied that Prospero himself has almost no mojo, and instead that it is spirits bound to his service which perform the various magical deeds.
> 
> Ironically, "wizard" by comparison is generally the less powerful of the two in fiction and historical usage. A sorcerer was a powerful, usually evil, practitioner of magic. A wizard could go either way and tended to be more limited. D&D has so successfully inverted this that it can be hard for those who grew up with D&D to think of it that way.



Yeah, I also had Prospero in mind when thinking about sorcery in the sense of summoning spirits to do the magic. The play _Tempest_ refers to him as a "sorcerer".

Of course, the etymology of sorcery derives from casting lots to divinate information. But its usage is mainly for summoning spirits to harm enemies. But Prospero is an example of the spirits doing benign and helpful magic.


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## Yaarel (Dec 11, 2022)

EzekielRaiden said:


> Prospero himself has almost no mojo, and instead that it is spirits bound to his service which perform the various magical deeds.



Exactly.

The Summoner is possibly a nonmagical Martial class. There is no innate magic of mage. Rather, the Summoner is learning the behaviors of magical spirits, to call and harness them.

The sorcery is almost like a kind of Animal Handling proficiency.


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## Branduil (Dec 11, 2022)

BookTenTiger said:


> If I were a designer, I'd stick to the classic archetypes of wizards in fantasy literature and pop culture. I'd probably do something like:
> 
> The Sojourner - a wizard who has traveled vastly, collecting a variety of magic and martial skills. Gandalf, Merlin...
> 
> ...



I like this because each path has a unique theme and isn't just "let's actually give the wizard 5 million subclasses and claim it's 4.


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## Kobold Stew (Dec 11, 2022)

One thing that making all subclasses available at the same level opens up is the possibility for some subclasses that could be taken by more than one class. In some ways, that would bring back the idea of prestige classes, but in a more integrated way. 

I would love to see Necromancer done this way, for example, offering benefits that could be taken by Clerics or Wizards.


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## Mind of tempest (Dec 11, 2022)

Kobold Stew said:


> One thing that making all subclasses available at the same level opens up is the possibility for some subclasses that could be taken by more than one class. In some ways, that would bring back the idea of prestige classes, but in a more integrated way.
> 
> I would love to see Necromancer done this way, for example, offering benefits that could be taken by Clerics or Wizards.



why would clerics be necromancers? I have never heard of that in fantasy?


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## CreamCloud0 (Dec 11, 2022)

Mind of tempest said:


> why would clerics be necromancers? I have never heard of that in fantasy?



i mean the cleric of a god of the undead isn't all that uncommon of a concept, especially in DnD.


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## MockingBird (Dec 11, 2022)

I'd prefer they just use schools for subclasses.


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## Kobold Stew (Dec 11, 2022)

Mind of tempest said:


> why would clerics be necromancers? I have never heard of that in fantasy?



I don't think this is particularly controversial.

Clerics can specialize in necrotic damage; there are Death and Grave domains; they have unique powers to control undead, and more than any other class they deal with the line between life and death. In AD&D Animate Dead was on both classes' spell lists. In 3.5 animate dead was a level 3 spell, level 4 for wizards; evil clerics could also rebuke or control undead.


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## Mind of tempest (Dec 11, 2022)

Kobold Stew said:


> I don't think this is particularly controversial.
> 
> Clerics can specialize in necrotic damage; there are Death and Grave domains; they have unique powers to control undead, and more than any other class they deal with the line between life and death. In AD&D Animate Dead was on both classes' spell lists. In 3.5 animate dead was a level 3 spell, level 4 for wizards; evil clerics could also rebuke or control undead.



death is the domain of killing and murder that is like saying a berserker is a necromancer.
grave is the anti-undead cleric it is about the sacred rites of burial.

ad&d has a lot of all evil behave similarly not a justification besides when I think fantasy ad&d is not my core go-to.


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## Mind of tempest (Dec 11, 2022)

MockingBird said:


> I'd prefer they just use schools for subclasses.



then what should the schools be?


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## Crimson Longinus (Dec 11, 2022)

_Scholar_ - Wizardest of the wizards. The magical nerd. Has widest selection of magic and expertise in knowledge skills. The classic Swiss army knife of spells.






_Battle Mage_ - Wizard who focuses on wielding magic as a weapon and is at home at battlefields. Can wear armour and has most powerful destructive spells.






_Necromancer _- Master of death and shadow magic. Can drain and channel life force to self and others. Can summon undead minions.





_Lore Raider_ - Magical adventurer who hunts ancient secrets and is no stranger to climbing, jumping and disarming traps.


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## Kobold Stew (Dec 11, 2022)

Mind of tempest said:


> death is the domain of killing and murder that is like saying a berserker is a necromancer.
> grave is the anti-undead cleric it is about the sacred rites of burial.
> 
> ad&d has a lot of all evil behave similarly not a justification besides when I think fantasy ad&d is not my core go-to.



We're allowed to have different preferences.  The game has room for us both!

My post indicated "What I would love to see".


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## Mind of tempest (Dec 11, 2022)

Kobold Stew said:


> We're allowed to have different preferences.  The game has room for us both!
> 
> My post indicated "What I would love to see".



it is more why? we do not have a necromancer druid.


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## Crimson Longinus (Dec 11, 2022)

Mind of tempest said:


> it is more why? we do not have a necromancer druid.



Spore druid?


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## Mind of tempest (Dec 11, 2022)

Crimson Longinus said:


> Spore druid?



forgot about that one.

it is more why let everything be a necromancer when we can just make one really good one?

I have not seen much media with undeath wielding caster powered by religion, necromance has in my experience only been arcane.


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## Kobold Stew (Dec 11, 2022)

Mind of tempest said:


> it is more why let everything be a necromancer when we can just make one really good one?



This is absolutely not what I'm suggesting, as I think you know. 

My initial comment was about the design space that having subclass levels balanced across classes opens up. And then I gave an example relevant to the thread, where (for me) two classes both of which cast lots of spells within the necromancy school might choose to specialize in them. 

This is relevant, because (apparently) the new PHB will only have four wizard subclasses, which means the previous specialize-by-school approach won't work the same way (some have suggested a school-specialist; that's of course still possible, but I think it will disappoint because of the range of things offered currently -- e.g. the level 6 abilities are all over the place, and would take up a lot of real estate if each were spelled out under a given subclass).

I like the idea of necromancers being either clerics or wizards; you don't -- that's fine. I've explained why in the history of the game I think that's valid, and that in a previous edition clerics were better necromancers than wizards. I can even double down on it and say that the subclass should also work for Warlocks, but that's not the point -- the point is there is design space here, and I don't think that space should be closed off. My example could easily have been illusion specialists that were sorcerers or wizards; scirmishers that are rogues or fighters, etc. (I won't even raise possible Paladin/ranger subclasses, but they're there too!)

It would take very little work to adapt the PHB necromancer into something that would be rich and viable for both clerics and wizards. Having that would not stop you from having the necromancer you want. And both could be "really good" -- but they'd be different!


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## DeviousQuail (Dec 11, 2022)

I doubt WotC removes any of the current subclasses since that guarantees fans of a removed subclass getting mad. But assuming they do it anyway I think you need to hit a few archetypes_: _Gish, Specialist, Minion, Academic, and Weird.

Gish: Any wizard can get armor and weapons from other features and act like a gish. But there should be a couple subclasses that specifically lean into it. Bladesinger and War Mage are the obvious picks here. Bladesinger is the unarmored one while War Mage should get armor with options to lean into strength or dexterity. Most importantly they should be designed such that attacking people with weapons is not a trap option after a certain level.

Specialist: Illusionist, Diviner, Invoker, etc. The most important feature here is limiting their prepared spells. Unlike other wizards they should treat all spells of their school as prepared all of the time. Then they can prepare Int Mod (min 0) spells from other schools. You want to be an illusionist? Then act like it by casting a bunch of illusion spells. Finally, your class features should amplify your school spells so that no one else can cast your spells better than you. 

Minion: Conjurer, Summoner, and a million other more specific minions. I'm a fan of a Golem Master subclass I designed years ago (totally not biased). Probably the most basic in terms of spells since their features will be focused on their minion(s).

Academic: Scribe, Lore, and Strixhaven subclasees. Really lean into the academic and general arcane magicalness of the wizard.

Weird: Runecrafter, Graviturgy, Chronurgy, and Necromancer. Either something specific that is outside the scope of the other archetypes or something that blends two or more of them together. The Necromancer definitely fits with Minion and Specialist. 

That's a lot of stuff and WotC isn't going to do all of them at once. I'd start with Bladesinger, Illusionist, Conjurer, Scribe, and Necromancer. Each subset gets some representation and then they can be expanded upon down the line.


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## Baron Opal II (Dec 12, 2022)

Three guilds and a fighter/wizard multiclass (unless there's already a fighter sub-class that does the same thing).

Plus, some guidance on how the guild was made, rules-wise, so that people can make their own for their home game. Then, acquire The Houses of Hermes for Ars Magica and make some really interesting guilds!


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## Remathilis (Dec 12, 2022)

What I would like:

Master Specialist: An all-in-one school specialist that takes the eight current subs and makes a generic one out of them. 
War Mage: Specialist in combat magic; adds a little martial ability (less than a blade-singer)
Witch: primal/arcane hybrid with a dollup of warlock
Bonded Summoner: Pet wizard


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## CreamCloud0 (Dec 13, 2022)

CreamCloud0 said:


> i suggested this in the survivor companion thread a bit back but more relevant to this discussion
> 
> *The Specialist:* further reduces capacity for learning/casting from banned spell schools than standard in exchange for bonuses to learning/casting from a specific school(s).
> *The Generalist:* removes limitations for learning banned schools in exchange for mid-tier access across the board.
> ...



seen people only picking four subclasses as that's how many it seems 1DnD classes will have so out of these i suggested the one's i'd pick would be: the Specialist, the Librarian, the Battlemage and the Supporter.


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## Horwath (Dec 14, 2022)

Just make one (full)spellcasting class: Mage.

1. All spells available
2. Spells known and cantrips as sorcerer.
3. Lots of subclasses that define specialization of a given mage.
4. Every specialization gets 2 cantrips and 2 spells known from levels 1-5.

examples of extra spells known:

*Healer;*
cantrips; resistance, spare the dying
level 1; cure wounds, healing word
level 2; lesser restoration, healing spirit
level 3; mass healing word, revivify
level 4; Aura of light, death ward
level 5; mass cure wound, raise dead

*Necromancer;*
cantrips; chill touch, toll the dead
level 1; false life, inflict wounds
level 2; blindness/deafness, ray of enfeeblement
level 3; animate dead, summon undead
level 4; blight, shadow of moil
level 5; dance macabre, enervation

*Kineticist;*
cantrips; eldritch blast, mage hand
level 1; magic missile, shield
level 2; levitate, kinetic jaunt
level 3; fly, haste
level 4; Mordekainen's faithful hound, Otiluke's resilient sphere
level 5; animate objects, telekinesis

*Traveler;*
cantrips; guidance, mage hand
level 1; expeditious retreat, longstrider
level 2; misty step, vortex warp
level 3; thunder step, gaseous form
level 4; dimension door, find greater steed
level 5; passwall, teleportation circle

*Greenseer;*
cantrips; primal savagery, thorn whip
level 1; entangle, fog cloud
level 2; spike growth, pass without trace
level 3; plant growth, summon fey
level 4; guardian of nature, summon elemental
level 5; insect plague, wrath of nature

*Pyromancer;*
cantrips; firebolt, greenflame blade
level 1; burning hands, hellish rebuke
level 2; scorching ray, heat metal
level 3; fireball, ashardalon's stride
level 4; fireshield(fire), summon elemental(fire)
level 5; immolation, summon draconic spirit(fire)

*Mindbender:*
cantrips; friends, mind sliver
level 1; charm person, dissonant whispers
level 2; hold person, suggestion
level 3; enemies abound, fear
level 4; charm monster, phantasmal killer
level 5; dominate person, modify memory

*Illusionist;*
cantrips; message, minor image
level 1; disguise self, minor image
level 2; invisibility, mirror image
level 3; hypnotic patter, major image
level 4; greater invisibility, hallucinatory terrain
level 5; dream, seeming

*Defender;*
cantrips; bladeward, sword burst
level 1; absorb elements, armor of agathys
level 2; aid, blur
level 3; counterspell, dispel magic
level 4; banishment, freedom of movement
level 5; bigbies hand, dispel good and evil

5. Add appropriate subclass features at levels 1(or 2 or 3),6,10,14.


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## Remathilis (Dec 14, 2022)

Horwath said:


> Just make one (full)spellcasting class: Mage.




Maybe in 2030-something, when 6e is properly announced. But 1Dnd is going to keep all the caster classes for now.


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## Horwath (Dec 14, 2022)

Remathilis said:


> Maybe in 2030-something, when 6e is properly announced. But 1Dnd is going to keep all the caster classes for now.



2034. 6E, 60th anniversary of D&D


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## Tales and Chronicles (Dec 14, 2022)

Horwath said:


> Just make one (full)spellcasting class: Mage.
> 
> 1. All spells available
> 2. Spells known and cantrips as sorcerer.
> ...



This. But each Mage can unlock more than one ''school'', so you can make you own spell list by taking the ''school'' you want. 

Then you can have your different archetypes:
Scholar (skill + ritualist)
Sorcerer (metamagic, endurance features, no focus)
Warlock (summoning, planar communication, edgy stuff)
Warmage (armored, weapon wielder)
Psion (no focus, esoteric mind stuff)


So I can then have a Sorcerer mage with a specialization in Fire, Illusion, and Fey schools. Or a Warlock with a Defense, Healing and Necromancy schools.


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## Mind of tempest (Dec 14, 2022)

Horwath said:


> Just make one (full)spellcasting class: Mage.
> 
> 1. All spells available
> 2. Spells known and cantrips as sorcerer.
> ...



look you start down that path we just end up classless and that is not an upgrade merely a side grade.


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## Horwath (Dec 14, 2022)

Mind of tempest said:


> look you start down that path we just end up classless and that is not an upgrade merely a side grade.



I have zero problems with classless being an option for D&D.

Just pick 2 or 3 feat(ure)s every level and make your own character.

OFC, there can always be prebuild "kits" that players can take if they do not want a custom character.

only thing important for CR and encounter building is level of characters and what abilities can be taken at which level.


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## shadowoflameth (Dec 14, 2022)

Mind of tempest said:


> I have seen people complain about the concepts of the wizard's subclasses, what should the basic ideas be instead as I myself can't think of any?



My thoughts if there are only going to be 4 in the revised PHB

1. A school specialist; Necromancer, Illusionist and so on. Choosing a school.
2. A  war mage. (Revised).
3. An item creation specialist; scrolls, potions, weapons etc. 
4. A summoner .


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## Mind of tempest (Dec 14, 2022)

Horwath said:


> I have zero problems with classless being an option for D&D.
> 
> Just pick 2 or 3 feat(ure)s every level and make your own character.
> 
> ...



classes are kind of part of dnd image plus the choice paralysis would suck and people would min max things to heights not seen since pun pun.

some times more classes are there for a reason as it makes it easier on the player and the dm to explain how things fit together.


shadowoflameth said:


> My thoughts if there are only going to be 4 in the revised PHB
> 
> 1. A school specialist; Necromancer, Illusionist and so on. Choosing a school.
> 2. A  war mage. (Revised).
> ...



3 is artificer
4 summoner is a school, you repeated number one.


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## mellored (Dec 14, 2022)

4 subclasses of the Arcane.

Sorcerer: gets meta magic
Bard: gets bardic inspiration
Wizards: gets spell books
Bladesinger: gets weapon proficiency


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## Tales and Chronicles (Dec 14, 2022)

mellored said:


> 4 subclasses of the Arcane.
> 
> Sorcerer: gets meta magic
> Bard: gets bardic inspiration
> ...



This would really be the best, IMHO. There's an over proliferation of spellcaster in 5e. 

I mean, we dont have a different fighter class for a fighter who is under the tutelage of a famed weapon master, or one who inherited a special blade and talent from her mother. You dont have a class for pole-arm wielder (with lancer, sohei, staff dancer etc as archetypes) vs a class for bludgeoning weapons (hammerer, siege juggernaut, avalanche hurler etc).


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## Remathilis (Dec 14, 2022)

Tales and Chronicles said:


> This would really be the best, IMHO. There's an over proliferation of spellcaster in 5e.
> 
> I mean, we dont have a different fighter class for a fighter who is under the tutelage of a famed weapon master, or one who inherited a special blade and talent from her mother. You dont have a class for pole-arm wielder (with lancer, sohei, staff dancer etc as archetypes) vs a class for bludgeoning weapons (hammerer, siege juggernaut, avalanche hurler etc).



D&D only needs two classes: sword guy and spell guy. But good luck selling that the vast majority of players.


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## mellored (Dec 14, 2022)

Remathilis said:


> D&D only needs two classes: sword guy and spell guy. But good luck selling that the vast majority of players.



There are enough differences in spell lists to make different classes.  Clerics play different than wizards, even if they use the same casting rules.

But I don't see a reason to have 3 classes that all cast the same spells the same number of times, with only a feature or 2 that is different.  That's what subclasses are for.


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## Horwath (Dec 14, 2022)

Mind of tempest said:


> classes are kind of part of dnd image plus the choice paralysis would suck and people would min max things to heights not seen since pun pun.
> 
> some times more classes are there for a reason as it makes it easier on the player and the dm to explain how things fit together.



That is why I said as an option. at the end of class section it can be: create your own class.

just as custom lineage should have been: create your own lineage/race/species.


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## shadowoflameth (Dec 14, 2022)

Mind of tempest said:


> classes are kind of part of dnd image plus the choice paralysis would suck and people would min max things to heights not seen since pun pun.
> 
> some times more classes are there for a reason as it makes it easier on the player and the dm to explain how things fit together.
> 
> ...



#3 I do not intend artificer. I intend for a wizard with full casting specializing in making permanent items. 
#4 is not a duplicate. There is no Summoner School in the PHB or elsewhere in official rules that I'm aware of. You may be thinking of PF.


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## Mind of tempest (Dec 14, 2022)

shadowoflameth said:


> #3 I do not intend artificer. I intend for a wizard with full casting specializing in making permanent items.
> #4 is not a duplicate. There is no Summoner School in the PHB or elsewhere in official rules that I'm aware of. You may be thinking of PF.



3 that has been the artifcer before thus it might be again plus it would directly comet for the slot.

4 how is summoner different from Conjuration?


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## shadowoflameth (Dec 15, 2022)

Mind of tempest said:


> 3 that has been the artifcer before thus it might be again plus it would directly comet for the slot.
> 
> 4 how is summoner different from Conjuration?



3. The artificer is not in the PHB and is not being updated as far as I know. If it is, making it a full caster would be a major change. If so, then that would work as a subclass of Wizard, but that would be a major change. The artificer mostly has the ability to infuse existing items but I'm referring to making permanent items as described in the DMG. Neither the Artificer or the subclasses are better at this than anyone else.

4. Except for the 14th level ability, Durable Summons, the Conjuration sub-class does not focus on summoned creatures. The spell list has the summoning spells in 5E but any wizard can take the summoning spells if he wants them and be a summoner in terms of spell selection without choosing the Conjuration specialty.


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## Crimson Longinus (Dec 15, 2022)

shadowoflameth said:


> 3. The artificer is not in the PHB and is not being updated as far as I know. If it is, making it a full caster would be a major change. If so, then that would work as a subclass of Wizard, but that would be a major change. The artificer mostly has the ability to infuse existing items but I'm referring to making permanent items as described in the DMG. Neither the Artificer or the subclasses are better at this than anyone else.
> 
> 4. Except for the 14th level ability, Durable Summons, the Conjuration sub-class does not focus on summoned creatures. The spell list has the summoning spells in 5E but any wizard can take the summoning spells if he wants them and be a summoner in terms of spell selection without choosing the Conjuration specialty.



Both of these are concepts that already exist. You just want duplicates that do the job better. That’s not good design.


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## Mind of tempest (Dec 15, 2022)

Crimson Longinus said:


> Both of these are concepts that already exist. You just want duplicates that do the job better. That’s not good design.



it would be smarter to just do them better.


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## shadowoflameth (Dec 15, 2022)

They could both be done better. But IMHO a class, (Artificer) is not a duplicate of what I would hope to see. Perhaps the best design fix is for there to be good item creation/crafting rules. Many players enjoyed that complexity in prior Editions and it gave characters a use for large amounts of gold. If conjuration is a school and if that encompasses being a Summoner, so be it, but a wizard can be a Necromancer or a Transmuter and still take those spells. None of the existing sub classes really address this and being a Conjurer doesn't doesn't actually make you a better or more specialized summoner.


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## Wyckedemus (Dec 16, 2022)

I think the 2024 PH should avoid reprinting subclasses from other books like Tasha’s and Xanathar’s where possible (for all classes). I say that for all classes, they should stick to reimagining 2014 PH subclasses and adding new subclasses that are worthy core concepts. I suppose if a particular subclass is head and shoulders above all others for consideration as a core theme, I would give it a pass. Warmage may earn that right.
When it comes to Specialist Wizards, I think there can be one subclass that covers all of them and would not want separate School-based subclasses like Summoner or Necromancer. They should build relevant abilities as options within whatever the "Specialist School" subclass is called.

Here are some ideas, some inspired by what has come before:

*Arcanist* – A generalist wizard that cares about magic itself and can modify spells via implements to get more power/efficiency/flexibility. Kind of an implement-using “Prepared Sorcerer”. Below are some ideas for abilities:

Arcane Focus/Implements - Gets benefits based on chosen focuses (Wand, Staff, Rod, Orb, Tome, Dagger, etc.)
Spell Enhancement - When preparing spells (not on the fly), choose PB number of spells of differing spell levels (0-level counts) that gets an Enhancement. PBx/day one of those spells can be enhanced when cast. Possible buffs include:
Upcast that prepared spell +1 level without using a higher-level spell slot.
Cast that prepared spell as a bonus action.
Give 1 enemy disadvantage to any saving throws made for that spell on the round the spell is cast.

Maybe can attune more magic items, or use magic items better?
*Scholar *– A school-specialist wizard that favors a specific school of magic and gains specialist abilities focused on that chosen spell school. (The nomenclature represents that Scholars care about Schools).

Scribe spells from their chosen school at half cost
All known Arcane Spells of their preferred school are always prepared.
Gain rebalanced versions of 2014 specialty abilities at the appropriate class levels. Make sure they are thematic and truly embody the essence of those archetypes.
*Elementalist *– A wizard that chooses an elemental damage type from a list, and gain benefits for that element type.

Get a list of always prepared spells that match your chosen element.
When preparing a spell that deals damage from your non-preferred element damage type, you can change it to your preferred element damage type.
Gain cool elemental abilities at the appropriate class levels.
Get an elemental aura that gives a buff.
*Aegismage *– (A gish/warmage of some sort, but if they don't pull Warmage from Xanathar's, perhaps something different. The below ideas are inspired in part by the 4E Swordmage. Though the Abjurer specialty could salvage pieces of it.)

Aegismage Training - Get heavy armor and shield training and martial weapon proficiency.
You know some spells that are always prepared, including Mage Armor, Shield, and Magic Missile.
Bonded Aegis – You can Bond either a Shield or a non-Heavy 1-handed weapon to you – The item can act as a focus, and you can call it back to you. Additionally, PBx/day, as a reaction to an attack on you, or an ally within 30 ft., can do one of the following:
Throw your Bonded Shield to give +1d4 AC to the target ally, potentially deflect an attack, and the Shield returns to you automatically. You can instead choose to cast the Shield spell targeting that ally within that range, and the spell lasts until the beginning of your next turn. (The spell option is more potent because it uses a spell slot.)
Throw your Bonded Weapon in an attack, or cast Magic Missile as a reaction, targeting only the attacker if it is within 30 ft. of both you and the protected ally. If you deal damage this way, you roll extra d4s equal to your PB, and deal that total in extra force damage.
Swap places with your ally so that you become the target of the attack in question. If you have plate armor and a shield, you are AC 20. Pretty good defense, even if you have low HP as a wizard.


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## Peter BOSCO'S (Dec 16, 2022)

Wand, Staff (absorbs Rod), Spellbook, and Orb (absorbs Crystal). Implement choice, like weapon choise for a Martial, is important.


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## Remathilis (Dec 16, 2022)

Huh, I assumed this thread was discussion about the 1D&D wizard, which is a revision of the 5e wizard, not a wholesale redesign of the class and magic systems.


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## Cadence (Dec 16, 2022)

Remathilis said:


> Huh, I assumed this thread was discussion about the 1D&D wizard, which is a revision of the 5e wizard, not a wholesale redesign of the class and magic systems.



Welcome to ENWorld!  We're glad to have you aboard!!

;-)


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