# Which 11 feats would you pick for a 1st level character if ... ?



## Edena_of_Neith (Mar 1, 2009)

Imagine that 3rd Edition was a Feat Giveaway Situation, where feats were given out like candy in a candy shop.
  These could be any feats, be they 3.0 feats, 3.5 feats, or 3rd party feats for either system.

  In this candy giveaway world ...

  A 1st level character begins the game with 7 feats (of any kind) to choose from.
  If the character is non-human, she gains 1 additional feat.
  If the character is human, she gains 4 additional feats (it pays to be human ...)

  If the character takes a Drawback from the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana, she gains 3 feats for the Drawback.  A maximum of 2 Drawbacks (for 6 Feats) can be taken.

  Thus, a 1st level character begins with 8 feats (non-human, no drawbacks) or 11 feats (human, no drawbacks) or 17 feats (human, 2 drawbacks.)
  The choice is the player's to make.

  Ok, in this candy paradise, let's assume ... the character starts with 11 feats (the player didn't take any drawbacks.)
  So, you have 11 feats to play around with.
  And you have decided to create one of the Core Classes of 3rd Edition:  Barbarian, Warrior, Paladin, Ranger, Priest, Druid, Wizard, Sorcerer, Rogue, Bard, or Monk.  (You can create the 3.0 or 3.5 version of these classes, pick as it pleases you.)

  Again, the character is 1st level.  You have 11 feats - from any source - to choose from.

  What 11 feats do you pick?  And why?  What sort of background would you assign to the character to explain her expertise?
  IF you chose - for some reason - to give the character 2 drawbacks, and take those additional 6 feats, what would they be?

  (Note that in this candy store giveaway, feat rich environment, the DM has announced that your character will gain 3 feats per level, every level, through 20th level ... for the purposes of plotting out feat paths and general sets of feats.  But the character is only *1st level* here.  Also, the gestalt rules are *not* in effect.)

  Edena_of_Neith


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 1, 2009)

Human Sorc's first 11 Feats (assuming I'm not forgetting any level-based prereqs):

1) Draconic Heritage (CompArc)
2) Draconic Breath Weapon (Lightning) (CompArc)
3) Draconic Presence (CompArc)
4) Draconic Legacy (or Skin) (CompArc)
5) Draconic Resistance (CompArc)
6) Draconic Power (+1CL and +1DC to electrical spells) (CompArc)
7) Ability Focus: Breath Weapon  (Monster Manual)
8) Point Blank Shot
9) Precise Shot
10) Spellfire (Forgotten Realms, Magic of Faerun)
11) Arcane Strike (CompWar)

The PC would start off with Scale Mail Armor, shield and a Maul or Dire Pick.  Yes, he would be non-proficient- it doesn't matter (trust me, I'm playing a version of this PC right now). 

Stat prefs would be Cha, Str & Con, in that order, with Int, Wis and Dex being the "dump" stats, depending on the stat generation method and ultimate personality archetype.  He's amazingly charismatic, and a big and physically powerful man as well: though the youngest son of a leader, his attributes lead to high expectations that he'll rise to be a leader himself.  But there is a hitch- he is aware of his draconic heritage, and is thoroughly embracing it, so he armors himself and preferentially channels his spell energies into his BW rather than casting spells ( and the _low_-Int version of this PC only knows that he can breath lightning- he doesn't know he could actually cast spells.)  His relative lack of wisdom has led him to follow a martial path rather than an arcane one, which is part of why he insists on wearing armor and leading men into battle.  (Conflicted?  You could say that.)

His pet?  A toad.

Spell choice would be predominantly towards those without somatic components (there is a nice list in Dragon).

At 2nd level, my PC would MC into Fighter (or Marshall, if allowed) and eventually take XWP for his weapon, Still Spell to expand his casting repertoire, and down the road, Practiced Spellcaster.  He'd also load up on Reserve feats as he progressed, esp. the 2 Force weapon ones and Storm Bolt.  He might take levels in a "channeling" PrCl, like Spellsword, but regardless of everything else, his primary class would remain Sorcerer over a 20 level progression.

No, he would not take any levels in Dragon Shaman.  Where's the fun in that?

*OTOH,* I could go ahead and build my Dex-build, polearm-flurrying, AoO nightmare Githzerai Monk/PsiWar/PrCl (Kensai? Pyrokineticist? Lucid Cenobite?)...


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## Edena_of_Neith (Mar 1, 2009)

Let me attempt a character under these assumptions.  Say, a fighter.

  Fighter 1st level

  Already has:

  Simple Weapon Proficiency
  Martial Weapon Proficiency
  Armor Proficiency, Light
  Armor Proficiency, Medium
  Armor Proficiency, Heavy

  11 Feats (+6 feats for 2 drawbacks)

  Alertness
  Blind-Fight
  Combat Reflexes
  Dodge
  Endurance
  Expertise
  Improved Bull Rush
  Improved Disarm
  Improved Initiative
  Improved Trip
  Improved Unarmed Strike
  Iron Will
  Lightning Reflexes
  Mobility
  Power Attack
  Quick Draw
  Sunder

  These are feats for the close quarters fighter.  He's no horseman or bowman, and he doesn't use a weapon in either hand.  He has no abilities in another class.
  This warrior fights with his primary weapon and a shield, and he's ready to brawl, to get in close and personal with his foes.
  Alertness, Dodge, Endurance, Iron Will, and Lightning Reflexes are the side results of his training.  Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Expertise, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Mobility were a part of his general training (along with his weapon and armor feats.)  Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Power Attack, and Sunder were specially taught to him as a brawler and close quarters warrior.  Endless practice and focus granted him Improved Initiative and Quick Draw.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 2, 2009)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> *OTOH,* I could go ahead and build my Dex-build, polearm-flurrying, AoO nightmare Githzerai Monk/PsiWar/PrCl (Kensai? Pyrokineticist? Lucid Cenobite?)...




And here he is:

1) WFoc: Bisento (Rokugan a Polearm that does 1d12 x S)
2) Pole Fighter (DCv1- a polearm gets treated as a Monk Weapon; see also similar Pole Master) 
3) Combat Expertise
4) Deft Opportunist (CompAdv)
5) Monkey Grip (CompWar)
6) Stand Still (XPH, others, http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Stand_Still)
7) Hold the Line (CompWar? http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Hold_the_Line)
8) Power Att
9) Cleave
10) WFoc: Improved Unarmed Strike
11) Ring the Golden Bell (DCv1- use IUS at range)

Top stat preference would be Dex, Wis, Str.

Stunning Fist and Combat Reflexes would be taken as the first 2 Monk bonus feats.  Improved Natural Attack would be added at some point.  As the PC leveled, feats like Greatcleave and Improved Crit would be chosen, as would Imp. Trip, and Imp. Disarm, and the Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot feats would also come in handy.

Extra Stunning would be on the list- possibly multiple times, since (as I recall) each use of Ring the Golden Bell burns off a Stunning attempt.*

The PsiWar levels would include taking Expansion as the first power, and the Psionic Weapon and Psionic Fist feat trees.

I've tried this build more than once- its a nice second-tier warrior who can control a lot of battlespace and is quite durable.  With the Githzerai's already high Dex adjustment (+6), the Monk's Wis bonus (another stat a Githzerai gets a bonus to), and their Inertial Armor psi-like abilitiy, low-level ACs are in the mid to high 20s.  Add into that the Monk's (and PsiWar's) available AC boosts and the polearm's (and Expansion power's boosting of) reach, and this PC rarely gets hit.

The PrCls mentioned above?

If the PC goes into Kensai, he gets to boost his weapon's potency, and gets a +8 Str boost that can be devastating.  It is also a PrCl that Monks can freely multiclass with.

Pyros get several flaming combat enhancements at low levels- firebolt, hands afire, and weapon afire.  As a twist, if you planned for it, you could start this PC off or work into using the Whip as a Monk Weapon (courtesy of DCv1's Unorthodox Flurry feat) and get full use of the Pyro's flame whip as well.

The Lucid Cenobite (Malhavoc's Hyperconscious) is a Monk-specific PrCl that gets them some time-bending stunts, but more importantly, continues the progression of most of the Monk's combat bonuses.



*For giggles, you could even take this closer to the extreme: 


1) WFoc: Improved Unarmed Strike
2) Ring the Golden Bell (DCv1- use IUS at range) 
3) Combat Expertise
4) Deft Opportunist
5) Improved Natural Attack
6) Point Blank Shot
7) Precise Shot
8) Power Att
9) Extra Stunning
10) Extra Stunning
11) Extra Stunning

This guy is all about mystical zen slapdown!  In this "Feats common as candy" world, at least every other feat selection would be Extra Stunning...

And add Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty and Spellfire to the list, and he's positively silly.

Dragonball Z, anyone?


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## Edena_of_Neith (Mar 2, 2009)

Hey thanks.  Really neat stuff there. 
  Thanks for the links.  I'll check them out.  (I'm not familiar with all of the feats and other terminology you are employing, and I'm quite curious.)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Mar 2, 2009)

Here's an attempt to build a fighter who focuses on using two weapons at once, a long sword and a short sword.  He relies on his dexterity more than his strength.

  11 feats (+3 feats for 1 drawback)

  Alertness
  Ambidexterity
  Blind-Fight
  Combat Reflexes
  Dodge
  Endurance
  Improved Initiative
  Improved Unarmed Strike
  Lightning Reflexes
  Mobility
  Quick Reconnoiter
  Two-Weapon Fighting
  Weapon Finesse - Short Sword
  Weapon Focus - Long Sword


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## JiCi (Mar 2, 2009)

Huh... think you can widen the class choices a little ? 'cause I got some really good feat selections for a duskblade.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 3, 2009)

"Roy Orbusson" (a mage specialized in ray/orb spells)

1) Energy Sub: Fire (CompArc)
2) Energy Sub: Acid (CompArc)
3) Energy Sub: Electricity (CompArc)
4) WFoc: Ranged Touch Attacks
5) Point Blank Shot
6) Precise Shot
7) Split Ray (CompArc)
8) Reach Spell (CompDiv)
9) Empower Spell
10) Spellfire (Forgotten Realms, Magic of Faerun)
11) Spell Thematics (Forgotten Realms)

Spell Thematics would be used to make all of the spells cast that way emanate from the PC's eyes.  (Why _not_ use a feat to up the kewl factor?)

As the PC advances, he takes the reserve feats that add ranged touch attacks- like Storm Bolt or Invisible Dagger (?).

In addition, the PC would get a Quiver of Ehlonna while burning a Feat or 2 (or multiclassing) to get access to a decent ranged weapon, making this guy into a human cruise missile launcher- lobbing precise attacks at range all over the battlefield.

The PC is a specialist- a Focused Specialist if using Alternative Class Features.  In addition, the PC would also use the UA alternate mage rules to get the ranged touch attack available to whatever specialist had it.


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## Nonlethal Force (Mar 3, 2009)

Okay, I'll choose the psionic version of the wizard.  (yeah, I know. Not the same.  But, ignore my post if that bothers you.  And as a concession since I broke the OP's class restriction, it'll just be SRD)

For this character, I really only need two feats to make the character massive.  Granted, the character would have plenty of the normal weaknesses.  But they would be massive in what they could do.

1: Psionic Body
2: Psionic Talent (2)
3: Psionic Talent (3)
4: Psionic Talent (4)
5: Psionic Talent (5)
6: Psionic Talent (6)
7: Psionic Talent (7)
8: Psionic Talent (8)
9: Psionic Talent (9)
10: Psionic Talent (10)
11: Psionic Talent (11)

Essentially, this level 1 manifester starts with 65 PP (plus racial bonus and bonus for manifesting stat).  There is no worry about this character ever needing to rest before the rest of the party is ready to rest.

Oh, and they also start with a bonus 22 HP due to Psionic Body.  That doesn't count the d4+CON.  Not bad for a first level manifester.

Mind you, this is one reason that giving bonus feats in a system where feats were meant to be more limited can be dangerous.  Psionics rules are balanced when used in the system it is designed for.  But in the wrong hands, it can get crazy!  And again ... I know the OP didn't allow psionics as written.  But I just wanted to post this anyway.

Certainly therearemore creative things to do.  But the escalating nature of Psionic Talent makes this fun!


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## lvl 1 fighter (Mar 3, 2009)

Human Fighter

Weapon Focus
Combat Focus
Shield Specialization
Shield Ward
Endurance
Diehard
Steadfast Determination
Iron Will
Indomitable Soul
Blind-Fight
Combat Reflexes

Vexing Flanker
Lightning Reflexes
Improved Initiative

You're the ultimate generic man-at-arms. Your shield AC is higher, it also applies to your touch AC. You can take more punishment than others, and you have a much better chance of resisting mind-affecting effects - the bane of fighters. You work better with your teammates and are not as bother by hitting things in the dark.

As far as where to take this character....anywhere, really. 3 feats per level in addition to the fighters bonus feats opens up so many feat chains it kinda ridiculous.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Mar 3, 2009)

Request:  For the feats from sources other than the Player's Handbook, could you list them?
  I have many of the books, and have memorized some of the feats outside of the PHB, but obviously not all of them!  I could use your help here.  (And, some of the feats you are referring to, I've never heard of before.)

  Cheers to you guys.  This is great stuff.  Keep it up!

  Of course, we know very well that in 3rd Edition (and in Pathfinder) nobody allowed so many feats for characters.  Heck, we are talking 3 to 6 times (general 6 times) the normal feat allowance, AND a huge starting package of 11 feats (plus drawback feats!) on top of that.  We know that no DMs allowed this.

  So this is a sort of What If.  What If 3rd Edition had been so generous with feats?  What if we had started with these feat 'packages' of 11 feats.

  We all know that, by the time a character gets up to high level, he's going really kick some monsters around.  That's generally a given.
  Now, you can - if you min/max - create a character who can kick monsters around at 1st level.
  OR ... you can create a more well rounded character (assuming you interpret feats thusly) with a selection of general feats (the '+2 feats' as it were, and the 'penalty' feats, plus more specialized feats.)

  Many feats are still out of reach, because they are level based, BAB based, or otherwise require something you can't have at 1st level, but there's still a lot you can take.  You can't have it all (not even with all these feats) but you can have enough to stand out.  To customize heavily.

  Again, for the feats not from the Player's Handbook, could you give me the source?  I don't know where some of these feats are coming from, so I can't figure out the 'picture' you are drawing here.  Help me to do so.  : )

  And, feel free to go further indepth as to what you just created.  Show how the feats work with the character to accomplish what you are trying to do, if you would?  Could you do that?  It would be very good reading!

  Yours Sincerely
  Edena_of_Neith


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## Edena_of_Neith (Mar 3, 2009)

For example, I was thinking of the Rohirrim (and the real life Mongols) who could shoot arrows from a running horse.  Now, I would *not* call that an easy thing to do, especially if the rider is in armor!  
  Remember that scene in The Two Towers, where that guy turns around and shoots *backwards* from a galloping horse, as they slaughter the Uruk-Hai?
  How could we create a character like that, using the 11 feats?

  Just from the PHB, it seems the rider would need his 4 ranks in Ride (plus a very high stat to help out), and:

  - Alertness (anyone riding a horse at high speed would need this, since horseback riding is so dangerous, both to the rider and horse.  Charging around on horseback is almost suicidally dangerous, even when you are not wearing armor and fighting.)
  - Endurance (this is a *fighter.*  He is expected to go the distance.  And as a horseback rider, he's had to intensively practice this exhaustive skill.)
  - Iron Will (again, this is a *fighter.*  He's trained to endure hardship, pain, to fight while in pain, to take care of his horse under duress, etc.)
  - Lightning Reflexes (if he's going to be firing arrows, holding onto his horse only with his legs, you'd expect this guy to be trained with his reflexes.  And things happen fast in combat, when you are galloping around on a horse.  Of course he needs trained reflexes, even if his reflexes were normally fast.)

  - Blind-Fight (this is not about fighting in the 'dark.'  It is about fighting in the chaos of an all out melee.  Visibility isn't exactly good when you are caught in the midst of a melee.  Being on horseback helps, but what if it's cloudy?  Raining?  Snowing?  Sunset or sunrise?  Smoky?  Partial cover for the enemy or he's hiding in cover himself?  And if he's thrown off his horse, visibility is greatly restricted when several people are towering over him, blocking out the light, trying to smite him.  In the film, the Rohirrim attacked at night.)
  - Expertise (he must have this feat to have Shot on the Run, below)
  - Improved Initiative (this is a result of trained reflexes.  If he's so trained he can fire arrows from a galloping horse, he should be trained enough to react quickly in combat.)
  - Dodge (this penalty feat accrues as a result of his combat training.)

  That's 10 feats, so far.  He only has 1 feat left.  Not enough.  I'll have to give him the 2 drawbacks (for 6 more feats) so he'll have enough feats for what I'm trying to create.
  So now, he has 7 more feats to choose from.

  - Mounted Combat (he has the ride skill, and now he can protect his horse - hopefully.)
  - Mounted Archery (obviously)
  - Trample (if the Rohirrim could do it, why not our fighter?)
  - Point Blank Shot (he's going to need it.  He still has all those penalties.)
  - Precise Shot (also something he's going to need in the thick of combat.)
  - Shot on the Run (this gives him that Rohirrim-type ability.  He can now fire from the moving horse, free to move and fire, fire and move, or move-fire-more.)
  - Weapon Focus, Short Bow (obviously.)

  There's a stab at the concept.


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## Celebrim (Mar 3, 2009)

Edena_of_Neith said:


> For example, I was thinking of the Rohirrim (and the real life Mongols) who could shoot arrows from a running horse.  Now, I would *not* call that an easy thing to do, especially if the rider is in armor!
> Remember that scene in The Two Towers, where that guy turns around and shoots *backwards* from a galloping horse, as they slaughter the Uruk-Hai?
> How could we create a character like that, using the 11 feats?




Interesting.  That gives me some context I'm better able to relate to.  Quite frequently I find myself thinking, "How would you do a Macedonian phalanx/Roman Legionnaire/Polish Hussar/Scythian Peltast/ect. using the 3e rules set".  I tend to want to run a low level campaign world where being 4th level is pretty significant, and sometimes its not easy to really capture the flavor you want with a limited number of feats.

So, for example, if want to capture a Mogul horse warrior.



> "Just from the PHB, it seems the rider would need his 4 ranks in Ride (plus a very high stat to help out), and:"




The first thing I would look into is a skill booster like Skill Focus (Ride).

Then he'd need Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery.

At that point, I'm actually pretty happy.  We have a 1st level human mounted archer that feels reasonably skillful at his job.  With dexterity 13, 4 ranks in ride, a skill focus (+3 by a common house rule), and a nice heirloom saddle (like this) he's got +10 bonus to ride.  That let's him do any kind of common ride action with virtually no risk of failure, and he's pretty darn good at stunts as well.  Despite being 1st level, he rides probably as well or better than the heroes until they've obtained a fairly high level.  

Guiding the mount with his knees is DC 5.  He never fails under ordinary circumstances.

Per page 138 of the 3.0 PH, I don't need an extra feat to split move and fire, so I don't have to even go for 'Ride By Attack' or anything of the sort.  Since I don't have facings in 3rd edition, turning around in the saddle to fire behind you is simply a flavor enhancer.

And everything else from that point is gravy.  At 2nd level, he'd probably add Skill Apptitude (Ride and Tactics).  'Skill Apptitude' is a homebrew feat that collects all of those '+2 to two different skills' feats together into a single feat (because it is elegant to do so and prevents taking more than one such feat that applies to the same skill).  Tactics is a homebrew skill that represents formal military training (although as of yet, I have no mounted uses for the skill, which makes me think I should).  Together with now 5 ranks in Ride, and 5 ranks in Handle animal, his Ride skill now goes up to +15 at 2nd level.  He's now capable of doing quite heroic feats of skill in the saddle.

At 3rd level, he'd probably pick up Endurance.  His ride skill now goes to +16.

At 4th level, I'd probably specialize a bit - half would pick up 'Ride by Attack' and specialize at close combat, and the other half would pick up 'Weapon Focus (Shortbow)' and specialized at ranged combat.  Dexterity would go up to 14, and ride skill would improve to +18.  Since 4th level is the highest level ordinary NPC's in my campaign usually obtain, that's as far as I'd probably take it.

So the question is, am I completely happy?  At 4th level he has 6 feats - Skill Focus (Ride), Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Endurance, Skill Aptitude, and Weapon Focus (Shortbow).  

The answer is mostly, but not quite.  First, I'd really want to push that Endurance skill down to 1st level, but I've already filled up my first level slots with essential feats.  Secondly, more subtlely, all the above characters are legal as created, but there is no actual way for a '1st level Mongol' to become a legal '2nd level Mongol' because 'Skill Aptitude' is not a fighter bonus feat and couldn't be picked up at 2nd level.  If I bump 'Skill Aptitude' down to the 1st level human bonus feat, then 1st level Mongul warrior loses 'Mounted Archery' and hense couldn't hit the broad side of a barn until 2nd level.  Lastly, by the book, I've already used up all or most of the character's skill points on ride and handle animal, so he doesn't have many or any skill points for handy things like craft, jump, tactics, or survival.  I could partially address this by going with some other class than fighter, but then I'd loose the bonus feats I need to capture the character's fighting style (and in the case of tactics, only fighters have it as a class skill).

So while I don't feel the need for 8 additional feats, like you've suggested, I often feel slightly cramped by just having 2-3.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 3, 2009)

> Of course, we know very well that in 3rd Edition (and in Pathfinder) nobody allowed so many feats for characters. Heck, we are talking 3 to 6 times (general 6 times) the normal feat allowance, AND a huge starting package of 11 feats (plus drawback feats!) on top of that. We know that no DMs allowed this.
> 
> So this is a sort of What If. What If 3rd Edition had been so generous with feats? What if we had started with these feat 'packages' of 11 feats.




I think it would feel like a "Monte Haul" game got enshrined in the rules.

However...

Given settings like DarkSun & 3PP RPGs like Midnight where life at low levels can be positively lethal, so they beef up the characters (starting at 3rd lvl in DarkSun, Heroic Paths in Midnight) I could see an interim solution of adding _a couple_ of extra feats.

For instance, using the game as is, but giving each 1st level PC (and not NPCs) a 1 time bonus of 2-3 feats (in addition to whatever their classes grant) would make them seem truly heroic, improve low-level survivability, and wouldn't be too unbalancing.  Limiting this bonus to PCs only would mean the PCs retain a slight edge over NPCs throughout their careers.  That 1st level Barbarian could start off with the first 3 feats in the Power Attack tree.  A Ranger could start off being an effective archer.

Heck, an _Elven Wizard _could start off being an effective archer...and could focus on rays and orbs right away and be dangerous as well.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Mar 4, 2009)

To Celebrim

  Celebrim, can you expand on your homebrew feats?  The ones you mentioned above?

   (genuinely embarrassed look)  

  I didn't quite understand everything you wrote.  Can you expound and clarify?
  I mean, your homebrew feats sound neat.  And you accomplished a lot with them (obviously.)  I just wanted to take a closer look at what you did in your combat.

  Yours Sincerely
  Edena_of_Neith

  (EDIT:  (sheepish look)  I never said I was an expert at 3rd Edition.  I'm not.  I was always a novice, even at my best.)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Mar 4, 2009)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I think it would feel like a "Monte Haul" game got enshrined in the rules.




  Of course, it would be Monte Haul.  That's a given.
  It's only a What If.  We'd never actually have a game with so many feats.  It's just a theoretical What If ... that's why I denoted it as a 'candy store giveaway' type of situation.

  It seems Celebrim has figured out how, using a few (very reasonable sounding) house feats, and using the skills rules, to create the same thing without a lot of feats.  I just didn't clearly understand how he did it ... I asked him to expound more on his house feats and house skill rules.  I am interested in his and his group's conceptualizations, here.


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## Celebrim (Mar 4, 2009)

Edena: I'm not exactly sure how I was unclear.  However, this is the homebrew feat I mentioned.  It's pretty straight forward, and should look pretty familiar.



> Skill Aptitude (General)
> You have a natural advantage that makes you especially suited for two particular skills.
> Benefit: Choose two skills that you can logically connect in some fashion to your character's background or experiences.  You gain a +2 bonus in all skill checks with those skills. Some examples:
> 
> ...




The only other homebrew thing I mentioned was a homebrew skill, "Tactics", which is a class skill for fighters and can be taken cross class by other classes.  It doesn't really effect the build for the Mongol Warrior, but I feel its appropriate given the high degree of tactical coordination displayed by the Horde.  They were generally much better organized than their foes, and generally relied on not just mobility, but superior command and control and unit discipline to defeat larger or better armed forces.



> TACTICS (INT; TRAINED ONLY)
> Tactics is the skill, knowledge, and understanding of how to fight and particularly how to work with others in battle.  Tactics are used to direct the movement of troops in battle, to correctly assess the tactical value of terrain, and to move in battle formation.
> Check: Close Formation (DC 10): Three medium sized creatures can engage in melee along a 10’ wide front without squeezing penalties, provided that all three succeed in this check.  If any of the creatures are size small, all gain a +2 circumstance bonus on this check.  If all the creatures are size small, they all gain a +4 circumstance bonus.
> Phalanx (DC 10): If you use a range weapon to attack an opponent on the other side of an ally, the opponent does not gain partial cover from the ally provided both you and the ally make this check.
> ...




It's not what I'd consider well play tested, but only in the sense that I don't like how it can add bunch of dice thrown to each round in the worst case.   At higher levels though, anyone who is trying to go the 'warlord' route would automatically succeed at most common checks.  I'd consider dropping the DC's of some checks just to accomplish that quicker.

None of that though would seem to clarify my post.

So, to clarify my post, I was drawing a contrast between the 17 feats that you felt created the image of a Rhohirrim, and the six or so that I felt were necessary (assuming of course we let the Riders of Rohan be more than 1st level fighters).  My 1st level mounted archer has Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery as feats.  This lets him move and fire effectively.  He also has a +10 bonus to Ride from Skill Focus (Ride), a combat saddle, +1 Dex bonus, and 4 ranks in ride.  It's only DC 5 to control a mount with your knees in order to fire an arrow, so our archer never fails at that or at fighting with his warhorse, and indeed can usually (75%) hang off the side of his horse to provide himself cover when fighting.  So he's good at what he does, even without any bonus feats, and can accomplish that trick from the movie of turning around in the saddle and shooting behind the horse without a problem.

The 11 feats aren't necessary.

But, on the other hand, I agree that he feels just a little bit cramped, as if he didn't quite fit the whole image of a nomadic tribal horse warrior.  Ideally, a couple of other feats would make him feel more well-rounded without feeling 'Monty Haulish'.  Where I'm going with this is, "Ok, 11 feats at first level might be more than a bit excessive, but is 1 feat at first level (and possibly 1-2 bonus feats depending on class and race) too strict.   Can we make up examples of fairly low level fighters that do seem to need something to do what they do?"

One of the reasons for bringing up the Tactics skill, is often I think 3rd edition had a flaw of mistaking a common skill or ordinary manuever that you ought to be able to use even untrained (if not well), for a feat or feat tree.  If you'll notice, the Tactics skill lets heavy infantry - like a Macedonian Phalanx - do alot of what heavy infantry do without recourse to needing to front load a bunch of feats.  In other words, maybe the boys from Sparta didn't have 11 feats, they just all had a skill focus in Tactics that let them work together very well.


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## Celebrim (Mar 4, 2009)

Edena: Just to clarify.



Edena_of_Neith said:


> Remember that scene in The Two Towers, where that guy turns around and shoots *backwards* from a galloping horse, as they slaughter the Uruk-Hai?




But as I've shown, a fighter that focuses in mounted archery can do that at 1st level.



> Just from the PHB, it seems the rider would need his 4 ranks in Ride (plus a very high stat to help out), and:




Four ranks in ride, certainly, but as I've shown, I can get by with 13 Dex, and even that is gravy.  



> Alertness (anyone riding a horse at high speed would need this, since horseback riding is so dangerous, both to the rider and horse.  Charging around on horseback is almost suicidally dangerous, even when you are not wearing armor and fighting.)




I think here you are confusing the idea of a particular skill, riding a horse, with the qualities that make you an excellent horseman.  Strictly speaking, all I need to ride a horse in D&D is a high ride skill bonus.  Remember, these are the same riders that ride right past the three hunters without seeing them.  There spot skill check is probably pretty good, but it isn't especially good.  Maybe some of the riders have 'Alterness', but it doesn't have to be ubiquitous.



> Endurance (this is a *fighter.*  He is expected to go the distance.  And as a horseback rider, he's had to intensively practice this exhaustive skill.)




Generally, I agree.



> Iron Will (again, this is a *fighter.*  He's trained to endure hardship, pain, to fight while in pain, to take care of his horse under duress, etc.)




I sort of agree in as much as I think military training imposes a certain mental discipline, but exactly what form it takes, I'm not sure.  It would be nice if the concentration skill let you do mentally arduous tasks, but I've never figured out exactly what game effect that would have.  Also, I'm inclined to think that what military discipline does can't be quite simulated without importing fear and horror rules into core D&D.



> Lightning Reflexes (if he's going to be firing arrows, holding onto his horse only with his legs, you'd expect this guy to be trained with his reflexes.  And things happen fast in combat, when you are galloping around on a horse.  Of course he needs trained reflexes, even if his reflexes were normally fast.)




I don't agree.  This is just gravy, especially since you've already assumed high dexterity.  He's already got better reflexes than average.



> Blind-Fight (this is not about fighting in the 'dark.'  It is about fighting in the chaos of an all out melee.  Visibility isn't exactly good when you are caught in the midst of a melee.  Being on horseback helps, but what if it's cloudy?  Raining?  Snowing?  Sunset or sunrise?  Smoky?  Partial cover for the enemy or he's hiding in cover himself?  And if he's thrown off his horse, visibility is greatly restricted when several people are towering over him, blocking out the light, trying to smite him.  In the film, the Rohirrim attacked at night.)




I agree, but only because the Orcs in the books are greatly impressed with the Rohirrim's night vision.  So apparantly, training in fighting in the dark is part of the package for the Riders of Rohan.  However, from the text, part of this seemed to be a particular sensitivity to their horses emotions, that let them use as it were the horses nose and ears almost as well as their own.  Again, I'm not entirely sure how best to implement this.



> Expertise (he must have this feat to have Shot on the Run, below)




Doesn't need 'Shot on the Run', so doesn't need Expertise.  Under the rules, a horse archer can already move - fire - move, without a feat.



> Improved Initiative (this is a result of trained reflexes.  If he's so trained he can fire arrows from a galloping horse, he should be trained enough to react quickly in combat.)




Again, gravy.  You've already assigned a high dexterity, so their initiative is already higher than normal.



> Dodge (this penalty feat accrues as a result of his combat training.)




Doesn't need dodge.  He can use his Ride skill to accomplish more dramatic defensive actions.



> That's 10 feats, so far.  He only has 1 feat left.  Not enough.  I'll have to give him the 2 drawbacks (for 6 more feats) so he'll have enough feats for what I'm trying to create.




So far, I've used 3 feats - Skill Focus (Ride), Endurance, and Blind-Fighting.  So far, he's just a 1st level fighter.  All he needs now to become a skilled horse archer is Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery.  He can get those as a 3rd level fighter.  Sure, he can load up on other feats to become a better horse archer, but he now has enough to do the job compentently.  Is anything missing?  Maybe, but it's not 12 feats worth of stuff.  If anything, it's skill points, which a fighter is pretty desparately short on.

What interests me in these conversations is whether we can say, "Ok, I want to create a Spartan Phalanx, but I want to do it as fighters of 4th level or lower.  Can I do it under the rules or is something missing?"  If you can't do it, it suggests to me that we really do need more feats at low levels.  I'm pretty sure though that it would never be 17.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 5, 2009)

> Request: For the feats from sources other than the Player's Handbook, could you list them?




Most of my books are in storage while I do a renovation, but I'll edit my previous posts as best I can- all errors are my own.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Mar 5, 2009)

Thank you both  (Dannyalcatraz, Celebrim.)

  Celebrim, I like the Skill Aptitude Feat and the Tactics Skill.  I think those were really well done, nicely thought out.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 10, 2009)

Just out of curiosity- is there an underlying point to this thread (like trying to determine how Feat intensive certain builds can be) or were you just exercising some idle curiosity of your own?


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## jedavis (Mar 10, 2009)

This would be a very fun variant to play...  may have to attempt it.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Mar 10, 2009)

This is a matter of curiosity.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Mar 10, 2009)

The following build is for a wizard.  
  It is presumed that, as an apprentice, she had access to a magical school that specialized in pulling out the hidden, untapped powers of the mind (ala, the 90% of the brain is unused bit) to produce astonishing intellectual feats.
  It is also presumed that the wizard apprentice has an intelligence of 16 or higher (preferably 18), and was a magical prodigy to start with.
  So, she begins with the following feats:

  Spellcasting Prodigy (Forgotten Realms Setting, 3.0 Version)
  Spell Focus - All Eight Schools (3.0 version) (this costs 8 feats) (In *this* case, Spell Focus stacks with Spellcasting Prodigy, as a House Rule, due to the school of magic mentioned above ... this is an exception to the 3rd Edition rules.)
  Spell Mastery - Read Magic, Detect Magic, Conjure Spell Components, Comprehend Languages
  Spell Mastery (another 4 spells of the apprentice's choice)

  Thus, due to the cerebral nature of the schooling (as opposed to being trained to project your spells with crushing force ... but they both lead to the same thing), the wizard's Spell DCs are 10 + The Spell Level + 4 (18 Intelligence) + 1 (Spellcasting Prodigy, 3.0 Version) + 2 (Spell Focus, 3.0 Version)
  So, her 1st level spells have a DC of 18.

  In *this* case, she must take Spell Focus in ALL 8 schools (and use 8 feats to do it), or take Spell Focus in no schools.  The cerebral nature of the training does not distinguish between schools, so it's an All or Nothing affair.
  She must devote at least one of her 3 feats each level after first, to Greater Spell Focus, until she has it in all 8 schools.  It is a long term effect of her training.  And although having Greater Spell Focus (3.0 Version, another +2 to Spell DC) is a great thing, 8 feats must be used up for this purpose.

  The school won't have it any other way than to demand she 'know' her spells, *truly*.  Thus, Spell Mastery.
  Spell Mastery is a truly astonishing feat of memorization (from my point of view), but someone that bright, given that training, and tapping the hidden potential of the mind, could do it.  The school demands that she *does* do it, for every spell they are willing to teach her ... in addition to writing these spells down in her spellbooks.

  This school wouldn't hear of such nonsense as 'wearing armor' or 'fighter/mages.'  To them, the cerebral approach is everything.  Victory in all things is accomplished through the cerebral approach (they probably have a good aligned illithid philosopher on their staff ...)
  If the student returns to the school after reaching 3rd level, the school is going to require she take Extra Spell Slot feats.  There is nothing as fantastic as expanding your mind (or, in this case, expanding the number of spells, the amount of magical power, you can hold in your mind.)

  But weapon proficiencies?  Feats from the Complete Adventurer?  Instant Metamagic Feats (Sudden Silent, Sudden Still, etc.) ?  Useless Metamagic Feats that require higher spell levels, and which can wait until later?  
  Not at all.
  It's going to be Extra Spell Slots (spells are the Divine gift to the wizard!), Greater Spell Focus, and other cerebral feats ... or the wizard isn't going to be welcome at that school anymore.

  If the wizard takes 2 drawbacks at the start, gaining another 6 feats, the school might teach, or the wizard might take:

  Ambidexterity (obviously, being able to cast equally from either hand is a plus)
  Improved Initiative (a result of lightning cerebral thinking, not combat training ... note that Combat Casting is *not* taught ... the school considers any wizard who allows herself to be drawn into hand to hand combat is an idiot)
  Spell Penetration (but if so, the wizard will be required to devote ALL 6 bonus feats to it, plus 2 more as she advances in level, so that she has Spell Penetration in all schools)
  Spell Hand (for obvious reasons ... the school considers that the true wizard ALWAYS attacks from a distance, and the Spell Hand is one of the best ways to deliver Touch Spells at range.)

  EDIT:  Even if the standard rules (no stacking allowed) were used, the wizard would still be required to take Spellcasting Prodigy (as a penalty feat, as it were.)  It is a part of her background.  The school desires prodigies (or her mentor desired a prodigy) to teach the secrets of magic.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Mar 10, 2009)

Here is an effort at a wizard who is also a warrior.
  She comes from a background where her mentor (or school) threw everything but the kitchen sink at her.  She's been through the School of Hard Knocks, at is were, as they tried to prepare her for a life of fighting, winning by any and all means possible.
  She begins with the 11 feats, plus 6 for 2 drawbacks, and she has:

  Simple Weapon Proficiency
  Martial Weapon Proficiency
  Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)
  Monkey Grip (as an almost supernatural ability, granted magically to her by her mentor/school, in an effort to aid her in wielding her 4 1/2 foot long weapon deftly ... she, herself, is only 5 1/2 feet tall)
  Armor Proficiency, Light
  Armor Proficiency, Medium
  Armor Proficiency, Heavy (the dice rolls are random, but her mentor/school doesn't think in these terms:  if she can't figure out how to cast her spells in gauntlets, after all that training, it is her problem and *her* failure)
  Ambidexterity
  Blind-Fight
  Combat Reflexes
  Improved Initiative (trained to be fast, not innate)
  Improved Unarmed Strike
  Quick Draw
  Two Weapon Fighting

  (Note that Weapon Finesse (Short Sword) will be taken when her BAB is +1)

  Combat Casting (obviously)
  Spell Focus - Invocation/Evocation (3.0 version, trained to make focused, crushing assaults with her spells)
  Spell Focus - Necromancy (3.0 version, she is being trained to kill things ...)
  Spell Focus - Enchantment/Charm (3.0 version)

  With her 17 dexterity, she has a +3 bonus from that stat, so her Initiative is +7.
  She will cast her spells, and hopefully the Spell Focus will enable them to destroy the enemy.
  If that does not work, she will be ready with bastard sword and short sword, with only minor penalties for each weapon ( - 1 and - 1 ?)  
  Wearing plate armor, hopefully she can strike down the foe before they strike her down (with 14 strength, she can manage the heavy plate armor.) 

  When her spells are exhausted, she is ready as a backup fighter, ready to leap into the fray, getting close and personal with the foe.  She wields her heavy bastard sword with the ease and grace of a rapier thanks to Monkey Grip, and her short sword is ready for a nasty stab at any opening (with Weapon Finesse, she will gain a +3 to her BAB with it.)

  She does not have many hit points, but she threw Regenerate on herself that morning (from Polyhedron #24 (or #27), 2nd Edition, brought forward to 3rd Edition, works as per the Ring of Regeneration), it lasts 12 hours, and she is not worried.  (She has an extra spell for Intelligence, and it's Sleep, or Charm Person, or something appropriately nasty for a 1st level spell.)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Mar 10, 2009)

So, why didn't the character immediately above take 1 level of Fighter, gain all the Fighter starting feats 'for free', and then take the other feats?
  Because of Storyline.  Chronology.  Her feats were taken during training, are in effect when she begins adventuring at 1st level.

  Now, one could suspend belief and take 1 fighter level, then start her as a wizard at 2nd level.  This would gain her more feats (5 additional feats), and it is - or was - a popular choice, it seems, within the RAW.
  But then, she wouldn't be a wizard at 1st level.  She trained for years to be a wizard, but she cannot cast spells as one.  She may die, during her sojourn as a 1st level character;  die, and have never cast a spell as a wizard, despite having trained as one.

  This, then, is a choice of the player and DM to make.  Suspend belief and min/max, or go with the storyline and chronology?  Up to them.

  EDIT:  If the character was specifically trained as a fighter/mage, then there is no choice but to 'start' as either a fighter or a wizard, then take the other class at 2nd level.  Only the Gestalt rules surpass this restriction, and that's another situation altogether.
  The character above assumes a sort of fighter/mage training, but wizard comes first, fighter second, in this particular case.


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## A Powerful Necromanc (Mar 13, 2009)

I choose...

*Name:* Zera Albrack

*Race:*
    Human (PRB): +2 assigned to str, favoured class: bard 

*Class:*
    Bard (PRB)

*Drawbacks:*
    Poor reflexes,
    Inattentive

*Stats:* Strength, constitution, dexterity are most important (in that order). Nothing else matters in the slightest.

*Traits:* adopted [choose the halfling +1 thrown weapon/sling bonus]
    Armor expert (PCT)

*Feats:*
   Throw anything [no -4 to improvised thrown weapons] (PRB)
  Arcane Strike [+1 damage, damage considered magic] (PRB)
  Brutal Throw [Strength to attack rolls with improvised weapons] (CA)
  Natural Heavyweight (double carrying capacity) (Planar)
 Poison Immunity [Choosen immunity: Black Lotus Extract] (BVD)
  Point blank shot
  Intimidating prowess [Strength to intimidate instead of charisma] (PRB)
 Wiling deformity [+2 on intimidate checks]
Deformity (eyes) [See invisibility, one minute] (BVD)
Deformity (Face) [+2 intimidate, +2 diplomacy with evil creatures] (BVD)
Improved initiative
Danger sense [reroll initiative, take best result] (Complete adventurer)
Lucky start [reroll initiative, take second] (complete scoundrel)
Luck of Heroes [+1 all saves, +1 AC] (hell if I remember)
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Greater Fortitude

Stats (3d6, reroll once. Assign)
Strength: 20 (+5) Dexterity: 16 Constitution: 16 Intelligence: 13 Wisdom: 6 Charisma: 15
*
Class abilities:* Bardic Knowledge (Chosen: Local), Bardic Performance, cantrips, countersongs, distraction, fascinate, inspire courage +1

*Skills: *Bluff +6 diplomacy +6 perform (Flute) +8 (MW instrument) Knowledge (history) +5 Knowlege (arcana) +5 Knowledge (the planes) +5 Intimidate +10 Knowledge (religion) + 5 Knowledge (local) +2

*Spells known:
*Oth
 Daze
Flare
Dancing Lights
Know Direction

1st
Cure light wounds
Feather Fall

Per day
1st: 2

Background: Zera, The Shadow Bard, quickly became well known not for his storytelling or musical talent. But rather his calm, sadistic demeaner present in day-to-day life. Be it slaughtering a village of innocents, or simply relaxing in the torture chamber with a victim or two.

He learned, at a young age, that weapons are easily sundered, and thus preferred to throw any nearby objects. Mugs, large rocks, gnomes, anything he could get his hands on.

Over the years, from living in the poisoned wastes of his mistress, he's gained resistance (and even immunity) to some of the nastiest poisons and effects in the world.

I will finish his gear/etc when I'm less comatose.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 13, 2009)

Heh- I like those first 3 put together...makes me think of the Marvel Comics character Gambit.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 13, 2009)

For (insane, Chthulhu-mythos) giggles...

Dex/Str/Wis-build Monk:
1) Aberration Feat: Aberration Blood (LoM p178)
2) Aberration Feat: Inhuman Reach [adds +5reach] (LoM p 180)
3) Vile Feat: Willing Deformity (HoH p125)
4) Vile feat: Deformity [Tall] gives your PC the natural reach of a PC one size larger (HoH p 121)
5) Power Attack
6) Cleave
7) Combat Reflexes
8) Hold the Line
9) Stand Still
10) Deft Opportunist
11) Improved Natural Attack

This mutant has ungodly reach and a high dex and strength, meaning he can strike with reach and power and will get many AoOs.  The Deft Opportunist Feat will mean those AoOs will land, the INA means they will hurt.

After that first level, there are all kinds of ways to go (see my previous monk builds, for instance).

Ia! Ia! C'thulhu F'tagn!

Normally...someone with his familial background would be more...chaotic.  However, he always was the black squid...er...sheep of the family.


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## Aus_Snow (Mar 13, 2009)

Looks like fun. 

Here then is a knight, of sorts:

Male Human Fighter 1 (now using 40 pb)

Str 16
Dex 10
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 14

HP: 13

BAB: +1

Fort Save: +5
Ref Save: +0
Will Save: +6 (+10 vs. Fear and Compulsion effects)

Skills: Diplomacy 4 (+8), Handle Animal 4 (+6), Knowledge (architecture & engineering) 1 (+1), Knowledge (geography) 1 (+1), Knowledge (history) 2 (+2), Knowledge (local) 2 (+2), Knowledge (nobility & royalty) 4 (+4), Knowledge (religion) 2 (+2), Listen 3 (+6), Ride 4 (+4), Sense Motive 4 (+7), Speak Language ([some classical language]) 1, Spot 4 (+7)

Feats: Able Learner (RoD), Cleave, Lionhearted (PotS), Iron Will, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Ride-By Attack, Sacred Vow (BoED), Spirited Charge, True Believer (CD), Vow of Obedience (BoED).


[sblock=Comments on the pervious version]Notes

Abilities are 32 point buy. All feats are from the PHB except those with the following acronyms - BoED = Book of Exalted Deeds, CD = Complete Divine, RoD = Races of Destiny (all WotC); PotS = Path of the Sword (Fantasy Flight).


Reasoning / Musings

I mainly wanted to see how far one might have to go in terms of 'breaking' the PHB setup, in order to create a basically functional knight type. Well, of this sort anyway. With 12 feats (including the Fighter bonus feat), by gawsh, it's almost doable!  This is just a quick attempt; I'm pretty sure I could do better, given sufficient time and motivation. Also, guy needs a name. . .

I then realised (once again) that, if one was stuck with only core classes (including NPC classes), Aristocrat would (overall) make for a _much_ better knight. . . if only their BAB was good. Even so. . . [/sblock]


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## Edena_of_Neith (Mar 14, 2009)

Feel free to use the 40 point buy, or roll 5d6 per stat and drop the lowest 2 dice and arrange to suit.  
  Start with quadruple the normal number of skil points (a fighter would begin with 8 (x Int) + 8 per level, a rogue would begin with 32 (x Int) + 32 per level.)

  Start with 11 feats.  If your character is non-human, start with only 8 feats (humans gain 3 free feats.)
  If you take drawbacks from Unearthed Arcana, give yourself 3 extra feats per drawback.  As per UA, you can take only a maximum of 2 drawbacks.
  You gain 3 feats per level, after 1st level.  (But no additional feats ... no Fighter Feats for fighters, no Metamagic Feats for wizards, just 3 feats per level of any type you want to take.)


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## Jack Simth (Mar 14, 2009)

...

I think, for level 1, I'd be VERY sorely tempted to take Toughness 11 times (or maybe Toughness 9 times, plus Precocious Apprentice and Fiery Burst).

Seriously, the DM is setting you up for a VERY high-powered campaign, and that means your opponents will be pretty buffed as well.  An extra 27-33 hit points at level 1, and an extra 6-9 per level, are likely a good idea.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 14, 2009)

> I think, for level 1, I'd be VERY sorely tempted to take Toughness 11 times (or maybe Toughness 9 times, plus Precocious Apprentice and Fiery Burst).
> 
> Seriously, the DM is setting you up for a VERY high-powered campaign, and that means your opponents will be pretty buffed as well. An extra 27-33 hit points at level 1, and an extra 6-9 per level, are likely a good idea.




You're not the first to think along those lines- take a look at Nonlethal Force's psionic PC posted upthread:


Nonlethal Force said:


> _<edit>_
> 
> 1: Psionic Body
> 2: Psionic Talent (2)
> ...




It makes a lot of sense, IMHO.

Though I'd be a bit more tempted to do it with a Sorcerer, possibly one with Invisible Dagger instead- gotta love those Force effects!


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## Aus_Snow (Mar 14, 2009)

Edena_of_Neith said:


> You gain 3 feats per level, after 1st level.  (But no additional feats ... no Fighter Feats for fighters, no Metamagic Feats for wizards, just 3 feats per level of any type you want to take.)



Wow, and some folks reckon the Fighter is screwed when _standard_ 3e rules are used.  Bonus feats every two levels is, more than anything else, what separates Fighters from members of the NPC Warrior class.

But OK, I'll redo that knight using your expanded guidelines (and yeah, I know I could just make him a Paladin, but that's not what I was aiming for; no magic or any of that stuff for this guy, thanks).


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## Buttercup (Mar 14, 2009)

Edena, you really like overpowered games, don't you? 

With these rules, I can't imagine _*any*_ character starting play without:
Improved Initiative
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Great Fortitude
Alertness

And I can't imagine any character of _*mine*_ starting play without also taking Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot.

This suggests to me that either these feats are overpowered, or all the other ones are underpowered.


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## Jack Simth (Mar 14, 2009)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> You're not the first to think along those lines- take a look at Nonlethal Force's psionic PC posted upthread:



Yeah, but Psionic classes weren't on the OP's list of choices.

Still, though, that Psionic character would be a very good choice long-term; take Psionic feats for all your feats and you've got an extra 6 hp/level after first (and you'd fairly quickly run out of useful Psionic feats besides Psionic Talent...) ... although even with that, I'd still be pretty tempted to play a nonhuman with a two flaws.  Elan, specifically, taking, oh, Noncombatant and Shaky (-2 to Melee/Ranged attack rolls) picking up those racial feats for the Elan from Complete Psionic to improve the racial abilities ("Elan Resilience, Enhanced" and "Elan Resistance, Enhanced" - no need for "Elan Repletion, Enhanced" unless you expect to run across a lot of Antipsionic fields).  Further, they're still Psionic feats, so they grant the +2 HP ... and let the character say "no damage" every single time he gets hit for a very long time.  That'd be something like...

Elan:
Flaw: Noncombatant
Flaw: Shaky
Feats (14):
1: Psionic Body
2: Elan Resilience, Enhanced
3: Elan Resistance, Enhanced
4: Psionic Talent (2 pp)
5: Psionic Talent (3 pp)
6: Psionic Talent (4 pp)
7: Psionic Talent (5 pp)
8: Psionic Talent (6 pp)
9: Psionic Talent (7 pp)
10: Psionic Talent (8 pp)
11: Psionic Talent (9 pp)
12: Psionic Talent (10 pp)
13: Psionic Talent (11 pp)
14: Psionic Talent (12 pp)
Total Power Points at 1st (assuming an Int-18 Psion... which, with a 40 point buy, is pretty reasonable - an 18 costs 16 points): 2 racial + 2 Int Bonus + 2 class base + 77 from feats = 83
Total Hit Points at 1st (assuming a Con-18 Psion... which, with a 40 point buy, is very reasonable): 4 (max first) + 4 (con) +28 (Psionic body) = 36.
Maximum Damage Negatable in any given day by Resilience: 332 hp
...
And later on, taking Psionic Talent repeatedly (with some other Psionic feats for good measure - Overchannel, Talented, Psicrystal Affinity, possibly Expanded Knoweledge as well) 



Dannyalcatraz said:


> It makes a lot of sense, IMHO.
> 
> Though I'd be a bit more tempted to do it with a Sorcerer, possibly one with Invisible Dagger instead- gotta love those Force effects!



Invisible Needle, unfortunately, requires 3rd level spells.

The reason for Fiery Burst: At 1st, it's a 2d6 (reflex half) 5-foot burst (so four squares - eight, if you're working in 3d) at a range of 30 feet, at will.  While most characters would be dealing with one opponent at a time, Fiery Burst lets you deal with a few (and, as a Wizard or Sorcerer, you can still have the nifties like Sleep, Color Spray, and Grease to work with in your 1st level slots).


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## Edena_of_Neith (Mar 14, 2009)

Buttercup said:


> Edena, you really like overpowered games, don't you?
> 
> With these rules, I can't imagine _*any*_ character starting play without:
> Improved Initiative
> ...




  Interesting.  This begs a question:

  Are feats like Alertness, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude, examples of something any 'typical' adventurer would have?  (because 'typical adventurers' have trained hard, or gone through a lot, or practiced a lot, or studied a lot, etc.)  Or are these feats examples of something truly special?  Something above and beyond the ordinary, or even the extraordinary of adventurers?
  For example, Alertness.  Now, you'd expect a fighter to be alert, right?  He's expecting a fight, he's trained to react quickly, he's ready for anything (and so on.)  But does this qualify as Alertness?  Or, is it merely assumed for the fighter without Alertness?

  The question would be moot with the RAW, since feats are hard to come by.
  In this What If, though, where a character may start with many feats, the question becomes relevant, and it covers a great number of feats.

  EDIT:  The point is not to overpower the character.  The point is to better define the character, make the character more unique, more special in his/her own right.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Mar 14, 2009)

You know, consider Lightning Reflexes, and then consider Improved Initiative.
  It seems to me that these two feats are related.  It is highly likely that if a character has one, he has the other also.

  If the character has Improved Initiative, how did he get it?
  Having Lightning Reflexes first, makes a lot of sense.  Add a lot training to that, learning to quickly react to danger, and the +4 to initiative is realized.

  Again, with the RAW, people will take the Improved Initiative only, and forget about the Lightning Reflexes.  But there it is, anyways.

  What goes for Lightning Reflexes and Improved Initiative, goes for a heck of a lot of other feat combinations (combinations that are not rules required feat chains, that is.)


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## Edena_of_Neith (Mar 14, 2009)

Buttercup said:


> Edena, you really like overpowered games, don't you?
> 
> With these rules, I can't imagine _*any*_ character starting play without:
> Improved Initiative
> ...




  I would think that the training mindset of the character's mentors, when he or she was learning his or her class, would have realized a group of feats for the character, under these circumstances (where the character starts with many feats.)
  Your group of feats above is one such group.  How about some others? :

  Yours:  Alertness, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes

  - The brawler (fighter) :  Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Endurance, Expertise, Improved Trip, Great Fortitude, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (with some big, nasty weapon), Weapon Focus (Spiked Gauntlets/Open Hand)
  - The archer (fighter) :  Dodge, Mobility, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run, Weapon Focus (long bow), Weapon Focus (short bow)
  - The acrobat (fighter) :  Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Endurance, Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Lightning Reflexes, Point Blank Shot, Quick Draw, Run, Weapon Finesse (rapier), Weapon Finesse (throwing knives)
  - The big, heavy warrior (fighter) :  Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Sunder, Weapon Focus (primary weapon)
  - The cavalier (fighter) :  Endurance, Expertise, Improved Disarm, Great Fortitude, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Mounted Combat, Trample, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Lance), Weapon Focus (primary weapon)

  - The Ranger:  Alertness, Ambidexterity, Blind Fight, Dodge, Mobility, Endurance, Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Quick Draw, Track, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse (short sword)

  - The Rogue:  Alertness, Blind Fight, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Far Shot, Shot on the Run, Quick Draw, Run, Weapon Finesse (appropriate nimble weapon)

  There seem to be feats that you would expect all classes to take, given this situation.
  Then, there are feats that all kinds of fighters, or all kinds of rangers, or all kinds of rogues, or clerics, or wizards, would take.
  Then, there are feats that all kinds of fighters specialized in brawling, or horseback riding, or in being archers, would take.
  And it becomes progressively more specialized from there.

  But what feats are these?  
  Which are the All Class Feats?  
  Which are the All Fighter Feats?  The All Wizard Feats?  The All Monk Feats?  The All Rogue Feats?  The All Bard Feats?  Etc.?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 15, 2009)

Jack Simth said:


> Yeah, but Psionic classes weren't on the OP's list of choices.
> 
> <good stuff>




That was noted in that poster's original post- I just edited it out.

I just basically brought it up again to show that certain build types can show up all over the place.


> Invisible Needle, unfortunately, requires 3rd level spells.




There is that!







> The reason for Fiery Burst <edit>



Essentially, its the same reason for going with the Draconic Breath feat, only because its a reserve feat, its slightly less powerful per use, but you don't use up spell slots to power it...

Of course, this inspires me somewhat...

1) Draconic Heritage (Red Dragon)
2) Draconic Breath
3) Draconic Resistance (CompArc)
4) Draconic Power (+1CL and +1DC to Fire spells)
5) Draconic Flight
6) Weapon Focus: Ranged Touch attacks
7) Ability Focus: Breath Weapon (Monster Manual)
8) Wild Talent
9) Fiery Burst
10) Spellfire (Forgotten Realms, Magic of Faerun)
11) Arcane Strike (CompWar)

You get this PC into the Pyrokinetic PrCl quickly and you have the beginning approximation of the Human Torch.



> This suggests to me that either these feats are overpowered, or all the other ones are underpowered.




Actually, I see very few of those feats chosen in campaigns- the obvious exceptions being the ones for ranged combat.  Those are always chosen by "archer' types because the rules pretty much dictate you need them to be effective.

IOW, I think its probably more indicative of your personal playstyle.

Not that there aren't over- and underpowered feats.

And at this point in 3.X history, some are not so much underpowered as they're just the (weak) gateway feats to certain chains (that didn't get rectified by WotC until later books).


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## Jack Simth (Mar 15, 2009)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> That was noted in that poster's original post- I just edited it out.
> 
> I just basically brought it up again to show that certain build types can show up all over the place.
> 
> ...



In the specific case of the first level build, the Reserve Feat Fiery Burst (which you can only qualify for due to Precocious Apprentice...) does 2d6 at-will, and uses your Primary Casting Stat for the DC.  Draconic Breath (at 1st) does 2d6 a limited number of times per day (although it is a much larger area...), is more flexible on the damage type, and is fixed to Charisma.  At 1st, they're generally going to be similarly useful... but there are some caveats:
1) Draconic Breath scales better later on than does Fiery Burst.
2) Draconic Breath requires you to be a Sorcerer (or take yet a third feat...)
3) The point of spending a feat on that type of offense is to have a lot of endurance - which Draconic Breath doesn't really grant you (it just grants you slightly better efficiency... and in the specific case of the sorcerer, for most intents and purposes, it's a very funny spell known).


Dannyalcatraz said:


> Of course, this inspires me somewhat...
> 
> 1) Draconic Heritage (Red Dragon)
> 2) Draconic Breath
> ...



Mild issue:
You need Precocious Apprentice to get Fiery Burst at 1st level - Fiery Burst requires you to be able to cast 2nd level spells, and it also requires a Fire spell of at least 2nd level to power it.  

You might consider checking out Races of the Dragon - it's got some nifties that would go very well with that build.


Dannyalcatraz said:


> You get this PC into the Pyrokinetic PrCl quickly and you have the beginning approximation of the Human Torch.



That you do... also, you might want to check out the Spell Compendium - there's a second level spell there that causes you to be at the center of a cloud of fire...


Dannyalcatraz said:


> Actually, I see very few of those feats chosen in campaigns- the obvious exceptions being the ones for ranged combat.  Those are always chosen by "archer' types because the rules pretty much dictate you need them to be effective.



Yeah.  Many of the ones showing up here are mostly paranoia about why you're getting that many feats.  It's also a nod to the little issue that many, many feats have requirements that you can't meet at 1st level, no matter how many feats you have - so there aren't that many that are all that useful for a 1st level character, and you see simple skill boosters, Toughness, and similar ones that would normally go on the "don't bother" list.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 15, 2009)

> Bruce Lee
> Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way round or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves.
> 
> Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water my friend.




In another thread, someone is trying to puzzle over creating a Water Elemental PC.http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3r...storming-water-elemental-pcs.html#post4711320

In still another thread, I proposed that someone have a summoned Water Elemental either be Blessed or take Sacred Vow...essentially becoming sentient Holy Water.

Combined here in this thread...

Mephit, mephling or one of the small Druidic elemental water sidekicks or some such as the basis for the PC.  He is a Monk.

1) Sacred Vow
2) Vow of Poverty
3) Nimbus of Light 
4) Holy Radiance
5) Extra Stunning
6) Imp. Nat. Att.
7) Weapon Focus: IUC
8) Ring the Golden Bell
9) Weapon Focus: Ranged Touch attacks
10) Spellfire (Forgotten Realms, Magic of Faerun)
11) Ability Focus: Breath Weapon (Monster Manual) (assumes Mephit or Mephling, which both have breath weapons)- otherwise, either more Extra Stunning or an additional Exalted feat..

Now, the thing is, you get bonus Exalted feats from being an Exalted PC w/VoP, but at this time, I don't have access to the book that tells me how many or when.  Those would be chosen from those below:

Exalted Spell Resistance 
Fist of the Heavens
Holy Ki Strike
Intuitive Attack
Nemesis
Quell the Profane 
Resounding Blow
Sanctify Ki Strike
Sanctify Martial Strike
Sanctify Natural Attack
Sanctify Weapon
Stigmata 	BE 	46 	You bear the marks of wounds on your body, as sort of a living martyrdom.
Touch of Golden Ice
Vow of Abstinence 
Vow of Chastity
Vow of Obedience
Words of Creation 

(The feats can be found here: Feat Index)


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 15, 2009)

Jack Simth said:


> 2) Draconic Breath requires you to be a Sorcerer (or take yet a third feat...)




FYI, as someone else pointed out to me, there is a feat from Dragon Magic (which I don't have) that lets you get access to the Draconic Heritage feats as if you were a Sorcerer with Draconic Heritage- simultaneously doing away with the Sorc prereq and taking the place of DH.



Jack Simth said:


> Mild issue:
> You need Precocious Apprentice to get Fiery Burst at 1st level - Fiery Burst requires you to be able to cast 2nd level spells, and it also requires a Fire spell of at least 2nd level to power it.




Ahhhh- well, that's one of the hazards of doing this all without your books handy.  Normally, I wouldn't make that mistake.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Mar 19, 2009)

Getting back to this thread ...

  If one started with 11 feats, one could take feat chains.
  I'm looking at 111 pages of feats from this place called Crystalkeep, feats for 3.0 Dungeons and Dragons (and, many of these feats are jaw droppers.)

  Dexterity 18:  +4
  Dexterity 26:  +8

  Possible Feat Chains:

  Improved Initiative:  +4
  Improved Initiative + Level Headed:  +4 and special
  II + LH + Surge:  +9 and special
  Il + LH + S + Lightning Initiative:  +13 and special
  Il + LH + S + LI + Way of the Scorpion (if allowed to everyone) :  +17 and special
  Il + LH + S + LI + WOTS + Quick Reconnoiter (not shown on list, but it's around) :  +19 and special
  II + LH + S + LI + WOTS + QR + Jaguar's Pounce:  +21 and special
  Il + LH + S + LI + WOTS + QR + JP + Superior Initiative:  +25 and special

  If Blooded, Duelist, or Thug:  +27 and special
  If Blooded and/or Duelist and/or Thug:  +29 and special 

  Il + LH + S + LI + WOTS + QR + JP + SP + B and/or D/T + 26 Dexterity:  +37 and special (ROFL ... you cannot roll under a 47, and could roll a 57.)

  Other Feat Chains

  Improved Alertness/Expert Timing/Hair Trigger Reflexes (in any order)

  Roleplaying notes:  

  One has to make a judgement call on how fast someone with a +4 initiative *is.*  Is she merely a bit faster than normal?  Moderately faster?  Much faster?  Really fast?  Incredibly fast?  
  Only then can the full impact of greater bonuses be known.

  Which again begs the question:  If an 18 dexterity grants +4 initiative, how common is 18 dexterity within a population?  The dice (3d6) say 3.5% of the populace is that fast.  Is this so?  If yes, can an ordinary person be faster than this?  If yes, then how fast?  19?  26?  Higher?
  In short, what does an 18 *mean* ?  If it is the pinnacle of human speed, it means one thing.  If it is not, then it means something else.

  +4 cannot exist in a vacuum.  It must mean something.  So, what does it *mean* ?


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## Jack Simth (Mar 22, 2009)

Edena_of_Neith said:


> Which again begs the question:  If an 18 dexterity grants +4 initiative, how common is 18 dexterity within a population?  The dice (3d6) say 3.5% of the populace is that fast.  Is this so?  If yes, can an ordinary person be faster than this?  If yes, then how fast?  19?  26?  Higher?
> In short, what does an 18 *mean* ?  If it is the pinnacle of human speed, it means one thing.  If it is not, then it means something else.
> 
> +4 cannot exist in a vacuum.  It must mean something.  So, what does it *mean* ?



On 3d6 (which is the NPC class roll, generally), you'll get an 18 once out of every 216 rolls, a little under half a percent for any given roll (it's much higher on the PC's 4d6 drop lowest, but still not very high).  With six 3d6 rolls, the chance that there's at least one 18 in there is just a hair under 3%.  

The guy with 18 Dex?  He's likely to go into some profession where reaction time matters - Race Car driving, baseball, whatever.  But yes, more often than not, when someone takes a swing at him, he'll dodge, block, and/or counterpunch the guy.  

The annoying bit, though, is that most things are skills, when it comes down to it - from lifting weights (strength) to hitting things, to picking locks, to tricking people into doing what you want.  

However, the d20 puts more of a spin on things than you get at 1st level, regardless (unless you really, really focus).  That +4 from the stat?  It means that all else being equal, he's 20% more likely to succeed on a tricky task.


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