# First house rule: Tieflings have small horns



## d'Anconia (May 3, 2008)

I know, it's not really a rule but still...

I like the idea of a demonesque appearance, but when I picture a Tiefling, I don't picture him with the large brutish horns that you see in the PHB excerpts we've found. I think of Tieflings as cunning, mischievous and sly - not hulking or brutish. I imagine a visage of something resembling the popular conception of Lucifer.

They can keep the tail though. That's cool.


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## MortalPlague (May 3, 2008)

I completely agree.  I absolutely detest the huge horns; why can't tieflings be a _subtly_ tainted race?  Small horns still will give anyone pause, as will strange eye or skin colours, or even the forked tongue suggested in the 3.5 monster manual.  Why do we need to be beaten over the head with 'this race is descended from demons'?

In my mind, a tiefling should resemble Darth Maul (possibly without the crazy face paint).  He looks menacing and sinister without being completely monstrous.

I'm also in the 'tail should be optional' camp, however.  I don't want my tieflings to have tails.  It's silly.


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## HeinorNY (May 3, 2008)

MortalPlague said:
			
		

> I absolutely detest the huge horns...
> 
> ... I don't want my tieflings to have tails.  It's silly.








-Could you repeat that?


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## Darkthorne (May 3, 2008)

Various horn sizes, that could account for someone wanting to play a massive brute if need be. Also tail slimmer & prehensile. Right now they seem like a crossbreed of race A and Matthew Broderick's Godzilla/Jurassic Park critter :-o


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## jedrious (May 3, 2008)

My first houserule:

Anyone forcing a houserule on me before the rules even comes out gets a pie in the face and a boot out the door


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## mrphoenix (May 3, 2008)

jedrious said:
			
		

> My first houserule:
> 
> Anyone forcing a houserule on me before the rules even comes out gets a pie in the face and a boot out the door



signed


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## mach1.9pants (May 3, 2008)

Horns I don't mind, but the tail...why it is huge, and long enough to go out of a standard 5' square- tiefling need 2 squares! It is large enough that it would seriously add to the weight of armour to cover it, probably another 3rd or so. It is large enough to be a problem in many skill uses.
But I still don't mind, cos it is just a character concept. If my players want big/little horns/tails fine by me Humans have a massive amount of variation of appearance, so why not tieflings? and Dragonborn. An the minis I am going to use for 4E (from different sets) have a large variation of size, colour and shape- that is fine by me for the same reasons.


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## Foundry of Decay (May 3, 2008)

My only 'Arthouse rule' will be to add tails to the Dragonborn.  Otherwise I tend to draw most everything for my world myself.


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## Wormwood (May 3, 2008)

My only house rule: if the players want it, they get it. That includes tiefling horns and dragonborn boobs.

My precious snowflake sensibilities notwithstanding.


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## HeinorNY (May 3, 2008)

Tieflings should have a tail attack, or at least a racial feat that gives them a tail sweep.
Maybe a tiefling weapon/armor with spikes that is attached to their tail.
I wanna use that tail for something.


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## Jack Colby (May 3, 2008)

Yeah, all fantasy races should just be normal humans with extremely minor cosmetic differences!  It's less silly!


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## HeinorNY (May 3, 2008)

Jack Colby said:
			
		

> Yeah, all fantasy races should just be normal humans with extremely minor cosmetic differences!  It's less silly!



This is D&D, not Star Trek


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## Ebon Shar (May 3, 2008)

As it is, they look like goat-people.  Give them little goatees and change the name to Goatborn.  Or, house-rule them to look like something you'd like to play.  I like to imagine them as the devil guy in the Star Wars Cantina.  I'd post a picture, but my post-fu is bad.


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## Bishmon (May 3, 2008)

MortalPlague said:
			
		

> why can't tieflings be a _subtly_ tainted race?



Agreed. I would love that. I think it'd create an interesting dynamic to have two very similar races seperated by something that isn't obvious. The paranoia, prejudices, etc., would all be very interesting.

That's why I'd love to see tieflings that didn't have horns, tails, forked tongues, or different colored skin. I don't want 'you seem normal, oh wait, you're blue', I want _subtle_. 

Unfortunately, tieflings don't provide that for me.


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## Kobold Avenger (May 3, 2008)

My ruling is that tieflings have whatever physical features the player wants (like they were in previous editions), as long as it's in reason.  Nothing that effects the rules in any way (until there are balanced rules to reflect these differences).  

I personally feel that Bison-Horned Dinosaur-Tailed tieflings are ridiculous.


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## Gloombunny (May 3, 2008)

I think I'll find some good DiTerlizzi or similar tiefling pictures online, print them out, then paste them over the tiefling art in my copy of the PHB.


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## Fallen Seraph (May 3, 2008)

I don't mind the Tiefling artwork, but I simply view it as one type of Tiefling.

Hell, in my first campaign-setting the race that is taking the Tiefling stats, looks more like and have more in common with aberrations then devils.


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## DandD (May 3, 2008)

Meh, Tieflings are dumb anyway, as are Halflings, and Half-Elves.


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## MortalPlague (May 3, 2008)

ainatan said:
			
		

> -Could you repeat that?




I love Hellboy, but keep in mind that it's the fact that he's uniquely monstrous that's a large part of his charm.  If there were hundreds or thousands of Hellboys running around, well, it would get old very quickly.

In my mind, Hellboy is the sort of character that comes from playing a monster manual race.  The DM is perfectly able to allow monstrous characters, and it can really add some spice to an otherwise standard game.  But when every party has one, they lose their charm very quickly.


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## Protagonist (May 3, 2008)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> My only house rule: if the players want it, they get it. That includes tiefling horns and dragonborn boobs.
> 
> My precious snowflake sensibilities notwithstanding.




100% agreed, if they wish  my players can play a smurf-like race with the crunch of halflings or re-flavour  eladrin to be dryads  (as long as it suits the mood of the campaign)


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## Mighty Veil (May 3, 2008)

My house rule will probably have them with small horns (if any) and no tail.


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## hong (May 3, 2008)

I'm going to remove the tiefling tail and horns entirely, and turn them into Numenorean/Mleni Melnie Melneeb Elric ubermensch types. Their angst will derive from how their racial bonuses don't actually match their exalted origins (for PCs anyway).


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## hong (May 3, 2008)

ainatan said:
			
		

> Tieflings should have a tail attack, or at least a racial feat that gives them a tail sweep.
> Maybe a tiefling weapon/armor with spikes that is attached to their tail.
> I wanna use that tail for something.



 Tiefling tail cut!


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## TPK (May 3, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> I'm going to remove the tiefling tail and horns entirely, and turn them into Numenorean/Mleni Melnie Melneeb Elric ubermensch types. Their angst will derive from how their racial bonuses don't actually match their exalted origins (for PCs anyway).




You know, that's not bad. Melniboneans would be a very good fit for both the fluff and the crunch we have seen thus far. Beautiful, tainted warlocky bastards. Much better than the current batch that currently sit somewhere between monstrous (eyes that glow with hellfire, great big horns) and ridiculous (ginormous floppy tails, mutant bone-beards).

*Yoink*

Now for a less tongue-twisting name...


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## duke_Qa (May 3, 2008)

this is imo the best tiefling art that i've seen as of yet. Horns aren't hooked up to her eyebrows(as far as we can see) avoiding that permament elephant-man frown that i dislike on the other pictures.

the tail bothers me very little, even though i prefer those who aren't too big. 

in the end, it will be interesting to see if the final tiefling art looks more like this one than the others we've seen as of yet...


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## Soel (May 3, 2008)

That's the best O'Connor pic I've ever seen.

I want 2e Planewalker's Handbook style tieflings for my 4e, except I'm gonna cll them Cambions.
(want them all to ber unique, and I don't mind ditching the cambion demons just to swipe the name.)


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## Immolate (May 3, 2008)

Since the back-story of tieflings make their infernal characteristics a perversion of their baseline humanity that is inflicted upon them as a reminder of the pact, I think that treating the expression of those traits as if they were some narrow variation of evolutionary development is unnecessarily restrictive. The traits can and should have a certain randomness about them. I believe that the best way to inject unpredictability into physical traits of devilish origin is to allow each player to choose their own.

Remember, DMs, that tieflings and dragonborn are baselined as uncommon. Tieflings avoid gathering into concentrated groups to prevent other races from seeing them as a threat. One tiefling, like one biker, will be noticed, but other people don't flee at the sight of one or organize a mob of pitchfork-wielding townsfolk to chase them off. But imagine yourself pulling into a road-side eatery for a bite, when a hoard of thirty to forty bikers pull up in a swarm, sporting colors and parking in precise rows of gleaming crome and growling power. There are few among us whose survival instincts wouldn't kick it up a notch.

YMMV, and that is the beauty of Dungeons and Dragons, but assuming that you adopt the baseline, tieflings will add color and interest to the makeup of your world without overwhelming it. I don't see any reason to prevent the players from realizing their internal conceptualization of what their tiefling looks like to support their idea of the character overall. Certainly, the most exaggerated cases will result in a great deal of sideways looks and subtle (or not-so-subtle) prejudice, but that is the essence of the joy of playing a non-human character. Keep in mind that your players control only the appearance of their characters. You control the rest.


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## MadBlue (May 3, 2008)

Gloombunny said:
			
		

> I think I'll find some good DiTerlizzi or similar tiefling pictures online, print them out, then paste them over the tiefling art in my copy of the PHB.




People always _say_ this, but does anyone ever _do_ it?


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## Cirex (May 3, 2008)

In my opinion, those horns and the tail are a tad too big, like, exaggerating the demonish ascentry. I will leave the option to my players to decide how big their tail is (...) and the horn-style, depending their ancestry. That if anyone decides to play a Tiefling.


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## Wolfspider (May 3, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> Tiefling tail cut!




mmmmm


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## wrightdjohn (May 3, 2008)

I think the most popular houserule in the game will be to just ban both the tiefling and the dragonborn.   I wouldn't cry if none of my players played one.   Alas I probably won't ban them outright.


I did change the look of tieflings.   They look human now: no tails, no horns.   They are a human subrace.   The only distinguishing trait they have is their eyes may flash when they get really angry.  I also houseruled in 5 or 6 elven races each of which uses the crunch for Eladrin and/or Elf.  


Begin against houseruling fluff is absolutely silly.   Any DM that would let players force fluff on him isn't a DM I'd want to play with.   Different fluff is good.   Even the WTOC employees create all kinds of odd worlds that do not fit perfectly the D&D fluff.


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## Klaus (May 3, 2008)

I had to try my hand at doing the tieflings as described in the PHB (and thanks to the scooper who posted the photographed pages), if only too see if the awkwardness was in the race itself or just in William O'Connors' depiction (so far we've only see tieflings by him).

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## pawsplay (May 3, 2008)

Hellboy is not what I think of when I hear "little demon" (which is what tiefling comes from). To me, tieflings are street rats and minions lurking about Sigil, not a race of horned, red-skinned devil warriors armed with chunks of scrap metal.


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## Incenjucar (May 3, 2008)

Isn't Hellboy... a *full-blooded* demon...?

I mean aside from also being a living artifact.


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## Oni (May 3, 2008)

I prefer my tiefling to be a little more oldschool.  Mostly human with a tainted look, not looking like a completely different race.  i quite like the tiefling pic from the 3e MM.  I'm less enthused about the 4e look, it seems to lack the variety I associate with tieflings, too uniform and too inhuman.  But changing it to whatever floats your boat seems like largely a nonissue as their appearance doesn't seem to be in anyway tied up mechanically speaking (i.e. they don't have four arms or something silly like that).  The only real downside is the artwork we'll have to look at for the next however long.


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## Gort (May 3, 2008)

Hmm. Now that they've been directly equated with Hellboy, my interest in tieflings has increased greatly.

Wonder why I didn't make that link myself...


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## Villano (May 3, 2008)

Ebon Shar said:
			
		

> As it is, they look like goat-people.  Give them little goatees and change the name to Goatborn.




I don't know about that.  I mean, if they didn't want to include Half-Orcs because they implied a very ugly backstory. I'm not sure what they would say about Goatborn. 

Old MacDonald had a farm, E-I-E-I-Ewwwww!!!!


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## Leatherhead (May 3, 2008)

Incenjucar said:
			
		

> Isn't Hellboy... a *full-blooded* demon...?
> 
> I mean aside from also being a living artifact.




Yes, yes he is.


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## DandD (May 4, 2008)

Well, for the german community, the Tiefling name rather sounds like a "Deep"-ling, or littled devil. Tief(el) = Teufel = Devil, and ling to make it sound like a minor one. So, minor devil.


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## Klaus (May 4, 2008)

Incenjucar said:
			
		

> Isn't Hellboy... a *full-blooded* demon...?
> 
> I mean aside from also being a living artifact.



 No, he isn't. He's the son of a demon and a human ex-witch.


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## doctorhook (May 4, 2008)

jedrious said:
			
		

> My first houserule:
> 
> Anyone forcing a houserule on me before the rules even comes out gets a pie in the face and a boot out the door



This.


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## Silverblade The Ench (May 4, 2008)

> "Tieflings have small horns..."




Size isn't everything!...Try some Viagra?

Sorry!!! It had to be said!! Gah!!!


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## parcival42 (May 4, 2008)

MadBlue said:
			
		

> People always _say_ this, but does anyone ever _do_ it?




I did it!   

http://www.munchkinpress.com/cpg149/displayimage.php?album=71&pos=2
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?p=8820961


Oh, there's another one on DiTerrilizzi's homepage, but its embedded and I can't even link to it...


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## Cadfan (May 4, 2008)

How is this rule going to be enforced?  Will you ask your players if they are imagining their tiefling characters with large horns?  If they say yes, will you slap them?


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## hong (May 4, 2008)

Cadfan said:
			
		

> How is this rule going to be enforced?  Will you ask your players if they are imagining their tiefling characters with large horns?  If they say yes, will you slap them?



 Yep! Like this:


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## Hammerhead (May 4, 2008)

Cadfan said:
			
		

> How is this rule going to be enforced?  Will you ask your players if they are imagining their tiefling characters with large horns?  If they say yes, will you slap them?




Yeah, but I'd hit them no matter what they said. While the 'new' tiefling look doesn't appeal to me as much as I'd like, I understand the change. They wanted the tiefling to be more 'alien.'

And you know, your tiefling could always just use a hacksaw to cut the horns down to size.


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## lutecius (May 4, 2008)

ainatan said:
			
		

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Why do you think he files his horns? Even he thinks they're stupid.



			
				Jack Colby said:
			
		

> Yeah, all fantasy races should just be normal humans with extremely minor cosmetic differences! It's less silly!
> 
> Originally Posted by *ainatan*
> This is D&D, not Star Trek



This keeps coming up about elves too, but there is a major difference with ST aliens.
Evolution on different planets producing identical species save for nose ridges and such, *is* cheesy, even by trekky scientific standards.
Elves and tieflings just stand for different human types and cultures too, but picturing them as quasi-human is easier, because magic has its own ways.

Red goatzilla people as a player race is not silly because they’re unrealistic, they simply *look* silly.



			
				duke_Qa said:
			
		

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Yes those forehead bumps are particularly ugly. I also hate the "balding klingon" hairstyle imposed by those huge horns.

The tiefling on this picture was lucky to find that rock thingy to sit on too, because I don't think even she could have used a chair properly.
Unless the crocodile tail is just an excuse to draw "cool" tieflings casually straddling chairs "cowboy style" in taverns?


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## Kaffis (May 4, 2008)

lutecius said:
			
		

> The tiefling on this picture was lucky to find that rock thingy to sit on too, because I don't think even she could have used a chair properly.
> Unless the crocodile tail is just an excuse to draw "cool" tieflings casually straddling chairs "cowboy style" in taverns?




Tieflings obviously use stools and benches.


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## Mercule (May 4, 2008)

Kaffis said:
			
		

> Tieflings obviously use stools and benches.



And ride side-saddle.


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## Emirikol (May 4, 2008)

You guys have not obviously seen the coolest 4e Teieiefling thread ever:  http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=4202077#post4202077

Now there's Tiefling artwork.

jh


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## Gloombunny (May 4, 2008)

MadBlue said:
			
		

> People always _say_ this, but does anyone ever _do_ it?



If I do it, I'll post pics.

I'm not really sure if my hatred of the 4e tiefling art will quite manage to overcome my innate horror of damaging books, though.  Even though it would really be an improvement, not damage.  It's just an ingrained reflex for me.


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## I'm A Banana (May 5, 2008)

DiTerlizzi's tieflings are the only true tieflings. All other tieflings are pale imitations of the original. 

....though these two are okay (even if they are a little anime. )


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## Nyaricus (May 5, 2008)

Klaus said:
			
		

> I had to try my hand at doing the tieflings as described in the PHB (and thanks to the scooper who posted the photographed pages), if only too see if the awkwardness was in the race itself or just in William O'Connors' depiction (so far we've only see tieflings by him).
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Magnificent, Klaus. As usual


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## AtomicPope (May 5, 2008)

MortalPlague said:
			
		

> I love Hellboy, but keep in mind that it's the fact that he's uniquely monstrous that's a large part of his charm.  If there were hundreds or thousands of Hellboys running around, well, it would get old very quickly.
> 
> In my mind, Hellboy is the sort of character that comes from playing a monster manual race.  The DM is perfectly able to allow monstrous characters, and it can really add some spice to an otherwise standard game.  But when every party has one, they lose their charm very quickly.



Disagree.

There are plenty of demons but there's only *one * Hellboy   


It's the character, not the race that makes the man (btw, that's the morale of the Hellboy story).


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## Shadeydm (May 5, 2008)

MortalPlague said:
			
		

> when every party has one, they lose their charm very quickly.




That is exactly how I feel about Tieflings/Goatborn.


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## Shadeydm (May 5, 2008)

I think I'm going to cut off their horns and tails and breed them for fighting.


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## Surgoshan (May 5, 2008)

Shadeydm said:
			
		

> I think I'm going to cut off their horns and tails and breed them for fighting.




Oh where, oh where has my tiefling gone?
Where, oh where can he be?
With his horns cut short and his tail cut long,
oh where, oh where can he be?


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## Edwin_Su (May 5, 2008)

maybe somthing like these? :

http://www.elfwood.com/fanq/d/i/dion5/valen_greyscale.jpg.html

http://www.elfwood.com/art/a/m/amis/ilmarya.jpg.html

http://www.elfwood.com/art/c/e/ceredwyn/jthof_the_secretary.jpg.html

http://www.elfwood.com/art/m/a/mason2004/richard_kane.jpg.html

http://www.elfwood.com/art/d/i/dion2/isania_mephistyl.jpg.html

http://www.elfwood.com/art/g/r/grav...w.elfwood.com/art/j/a/jackieo/tiefin.jpg.html


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## Edwin_Su (May 5, 2008)

oops


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## Gloombunny (May 5, 2008)

What's with the pointy ears on all those old-school-tiefling pictures?  I thought they were demon-human hybrids, not demon-elf.


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## Domon (May 5, 2008)

small horns are not really that visible on a 25mm miniature


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## Lurks-no-More (May 5, 2008)

The amount of time and effort spent griping about tiefling horns, or whether dragonborn have breasts, or what kind of a hair should a gnome have to look like a gnome, is frankly astonishing. Wasn't this supposed to be a game of imagination, not of nit-picking illustrations?


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## Edwin_Su (May 5, 2008)

Thieflings coeld have very difrent aprerences but there are always some featured betraying ther demon heratige.

so a thifling coeld look just the way you want it to look

a thiefling warrior might prefer to be the big horned type

whiloe a female thiefling rougue mingt have a tail and rudementery wing buds betraying an sucubus ancestor.


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## Kobold Avenger (May 5, 2008)

Gloombunny said:
			
		

> What's with the pointy ears on all those old-school-tiefling pictures?  I thought they were demon-human hybrids, not demon-elf.



A lot of demons and devils had pointy ears too.


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## I'm A Banana (May 5, 2008)

Gloombunny said:
			
		

> What's with the pointy ears on all those old-school-tiefling pictures? I thought they were demon-human hybrids, not demon-elf.




Why do you think that only elves get pointy ears?

In part, it's a DiTerlizzi thing: his fondness for fairy-tale leaked through, though not all of his tieflings have pointy ears. Anyone using his stuff as a reference is likely to have pointy ears, too.

In part, it's a change in what the teifling has been. It was originally "a human plus _something else_", which meant that they were basically a catch-all category for planetouched -- good, evil, fey, chaos, law, spirit-world, ethereal, ninja, whatever. They rapidly became more fiendish than anything else, but the idea always was that they were of mixed blood of various types, they didn't have the strong lineage of descent that an alu-fiend or somthing did. So when the original artwork was called for, DiTerlizzi let the "faery foundling" angle take over his art. IMO, that's something cool, the blurring of the lines between "fey" and "demon" is awesome in my mind, though 4e definately goes with the flow and makes them strongly associated with a particular brand of outsiders.


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## maggot (May 5, 2008)

jedrious said:
			
		

> My first houserule:
> 
> Anyone forcing a houserule on me before the rules even comes out gets a pie in the face and a boot out the door




Wait a minute!  I think you just house ruled before seeing the rules.  Now you will have to hit yourself in the face with a pie and boot yourself out the door.


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## drjones (May 5, 2008)

Disclaimer: I don't think 4e is wow
The 'new' tiefling look reminds me of the blue race from the wow expansion, the horns at least.  Maybe that's why but I don't particularly like the new look.

I doubt it will come up in playing the game though, it's not like I will be drawing pictures of every NPC or going through the PHB erasing horns.


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## Pbartender (May 5, 2008)

In my campaign, I think I'm going to give Tieflings a more Middle-Eastern flavor...

Rather than devils or demons, they will be descended from djinn and efreet, be in the process of trying to rebuild their lost empire, and most likely look a little more like John Leguizamo as he played the Genie of the Lamp in _Arabian Nights_:


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## RigaMortus2 (May 5, 2008)

jedrious said:
			
		

> My first houserule:
> 
> Anyone forcing a houserule on me before the rules even comes out gets a pie in the face and a boot out the door




If the rules aren't out yet, how can anyone be forcing them upon you?  I don't understand your statement...

In order for the rules to be "forced" upon you, not only does there have to be rules out/present/being used, but you would also need to be playing the game and using those rules.  Are either of these things in effect for you at the moment?


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## HeinorNY (May 5, 2008)

drjones said:
			
		

> Disclaimer: I don't think 4e is wow
> The 'new' tiefling look reminds me of the blue race from the wow expansion, the horns at least.  Maybe that's why but I don't particularly like the new look.
> 
> I doubt it will come up in playing the game though, it's not like I will be drawing pictures of every NPC or going through the PHB erasing horns.



I like this "tiefling".


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## I'm A Banana (May 5, 2008)

> I like this "tiefling".




Y'know, that' one's not bad. The horns are reasonable, there's no elaborately awkward tail, she passes muster.


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## Klaus (May 6, 2008)

Let me guess: draenei (sp)?


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## lutecius (May 7, 2008)

jedrious said:
			
		

> My first houserule:
> Anyone forcing a houserule on me before the rules even comes out gets a pie in the face and a boot out the door
> 
> Originally Posted by *mrphoenix*
> ...



There goes the argument that you can always change what you don’t like in the RAW.




			
				Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

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I don't know. As much as I like DiTerlizzi’s art, I’ve always found his tieflings more feyish than fiendish.




			
				Gloombunny said:
			
		

> What's with the pointy ears on all those old-school-tiefling pictures?  I thought they were demon-human hybrids, not demon-elf.



Most devils and demons in dnd have pointy ears (well, those who do have ears)




			
				Domon said:
			
		

> small horns are not really that visible on a 25mm miniature



And yet…









tails and horns are much smaller on minis.


For me, slightly red skin, small fangs, pointy ears and eyes that glow in the dark should be the norm. 
Every player would then have to pick at least one clearly devilish feature like modest horns, a slender tail (à la Nightcrawler) or hooves. So most Tieflings could pass for human or elves if they concealed their fiendish traits with clothing. 

I don’t think those who choose to have huge horns and tails should get the charisma bonus.
Maybe they could get something in exchange, but nothing too good, they still should be punished for their bad taste.


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