# Human Form Dragons



## Burn_Boy (Aug 28, 2010)

First off, I don't know if this carried over into Pathfinder (although the Draconic Sorcerer Bloodline certainly makes it seem so) but I have a question about dragons in the "human" form.

We never really touched on the subject in our 3.5 games since our wonderful DM did everything he could to slaughter us all the moment we hit level 5. Needless to say you don't see too many dragons at level 5.

One horrid DM down and a new ruleset to play by we've actually been getting to levels where dragons would actually be a decent enemy to fight and who doesn't love  fighting great big gigantic snakes with wings eh?

I know in the old ruleset dragons could take human form. I remember laughing at the fact that silver dragons preferred human form due to liking our food, and a joke in Neverwinter Nights that the kobold (Deekin?) used to mention that his boss white dragon would sometimes go into town to eat pie. Anywho this brings me to my final point, can dragons in Pathfinder assume human form?

And if they can, would you have to make them like your average run of the mill human? I find it difficult to believe that a old dragon taking human form could be mistaken for Boris the Blacksmith or something.

The reason I ask is because, in my upcoming campaign, the heroes are going to have to appease a Great Wyrm gold dragon, not a being to trifle with and I don't want a creature so powerful and wise to look like any average Joe they could meet in town. Now I know that as GM I could make him a ten foot tall gold tinted demigod, but my players really don't like it when I make an NPC "better" than them. I mean they are the PCs and it IS their game but is it so hard to believe there might be someone better than you out there?

So, your thoughts on how to handle dragons in human form?


----------



## Kaisoku (Aug 28, 2010)

Well, if you gave them the "Alter Self" spell (since older dragons cast spells), they could change into a medium or small humanoid, but still have all their physical stats.

That's some pretty strong and hardy human if you ask me. You could describe it as looking fairly typical for the race of creature it's turned into, but he acts as if he still extremely high strength and con, ac, etc.
A Great Wyrm (Colossal) turning into a Human (Medium) and then applying the +2 Str bonus from Alter Self, will have the physical stats of Str 29, Dex 10, and Con 21... before any magic items or spells.
That's a conceivable chance to break through manacles, or nearly an auto-pass on breaking open a simple door in one shot.

Plus... since the spell lets him look however he wants, and I'm sure the dragon has cash to shell out on looking good, he's probably going to at least look affluent (if not like nobility).

Glowing or serpentine eyes, smoke leaking from his nose, metallic sheen on of the skin... these are all too obvious and would probably make it a bit cliche.
You could, however, make the hairstyle similar to the horn pattern/shape they have in their normal form, as well as slightly longer fingernails (or shaped/coloured like their claws).
And maybe let them be able to rumble/yell similar to their normal voice. He won't have his Frightful Presence, but nothing says he can't have a somewhat abnormally booming voice.


----------



## ffanxii4ever (Aug 28, 2010)

Personally, I would go with something similar to what Kaisoku said, except possibly a little less obvious.
A Great Wyrm Gold Dragon is OLD but is powerful, and I would probably play that up to a fair bit.   Make them meet an incredibly old but incredibly fit man dressed in the most ornate clothing with gold woven into the fabric at every possible point.   His golden eyes would possess the wisdom of the ages and his voice would make a king fall to his knees and swear his allegiance.   And I would probably make him a little bit arrogant (as a Great Wyrm deserves to be), but less of a "I'm more powerful than you" arrogance and more of a "You WILL give me the respect I deserve" arrogance.   And if the PC's start to disrespect him, well, he would immediately start to throw some magic around in an attempt to awe them a little bit; you know, start making the ground shake, start to hear all manners of insect and animal flee from him.   And then I would start to break out the smoke from the nostrils, the fire in the eyes, the browning and burning grass beneath his feat, the visible waves of heat in the air, and the heating of all metal nearby.   And if they still are screwing with him, maybe he would walk over and physically lift a PC up and throw him a couple dozen yards away.   But that's just me.


----------



## BryonD (Aug 28, 2010)

Bronze, Silver, and Gold Dragons gain the Change Shape ability automatically.

This allows them to take animal or humanoid form.


----------



## Burn_Boy (Aug 29, 2010)

Thanks for the input guys. I particularly like the serpentine eyes, metallic sheen to his skin and such. I did the same with my Dragon Disiciple. It was this big long thing were he got hit with this magic spell that was designed not to do damage, but just cause pain and a human body couldn't withstand it so his draconic heritage was "forced" on him to keep him alive.

Anyhow, I wanted to talk about Frightful Presence. Having your adventures wandering through a haunted mountain or forest and having an Ancient Red Dragon pop up in front of them should send them running while ruining their pants. Frightful Presence also is in the good dragons stat blocks and one would assume that if Goldy wanted to talk to the PCs he'd change to human form to keep them from running like scared children. I would assume though that if a dragon made it to "Great Wyrm" status he might be able to switch Frightful Presence on for a second to cow any belligerent PCs back into line. The whole booming voice, shimmering heat and such would also work but my players, by my fault, are kinda numb to shows of power and it wouldn't do anything to their attitude whereas a unsuccessful Will save might at least keep them from speaking.

Your thoughts?


----------



## freyar (Aug 29, 2010)

Frightful Presence usually requires attacking or charging.  (Pathfinder seems to have changed some of the specifics; dragons in 3.5 had to attack, charge, or fly overhead.)  In any case, they don't need to be in human shape to avoid triggering it.  However, changing from human shape to natural dragon form right in front of the PCs might be dramatic enough to trigger it.


----------



## Kaisoku (Aug 30, 2010)

Polymorph effects remove access to extraordinary and supernatural abilities... so it'd be a DM fiat change to let a dragon in altered human form use his frightful presence.

You could make it a feat: Can "turn on" Frightful presence at any time, including when in a form that doesn't normally allow it (such as when polymorphed).

Only really helps dragons.. and perhaps the occasional Eidolon build (they still have frightful presence, right?).


----------



## Ambrus (Aug 30, 2010)

I believe the thing to keep in mind when roleplaying a noble dragon is their agelessness and worldliness. Impressing/scaring/intimidating mere humans comes far too easily to them; by the time the dragon has reached the status of great wyrm it's probably had hundreds if not thousands of interactions with dozens of generations of humans. It's long since grown tired of the hassle such appearances can entail if not handled carefully. A brief revelation of the dragon's true nature is enough to send whole villages fleeing, spawn sycophantic cults or indadvertedly summon every would-be dragon slayer in the environs. It might have been a fun ego-trip for the first few centuries, but it gets old quickly when all the dragon wants is to chat for a bit, learn the news or perhaps trade for some supplies for its lair.

Think as the dragon might. Whatever method he's using to alter his form, the dragon most likely is able to choose the particular details of his appearance, so consider what his initial purpose is in adopting the disguise. Form always follows function. If he's simply traveling and wishes to observe but not directly interact with people, then he'd likely assume an innocuous though mobile form such as that of a sparrow. If he wishes to simply converse with the party, perhaps to learn the local news or to find out what their purpose is, but isn't in the mood to overwhelm them by revealing his true nature, then he'd probably take the form a kindly old pilgrim begging to share a meal with them (if only to assess their kindness). If the dragon is seeking social interaction or an evening of entertainment, then it might assume the persona of a traveling merchant or minor nobleman with enough gold to buy drinks, tip barmaids and pay for minstrels. If he's on a righteous mission and, for some reason, needs to interact with locals he'll probably appear as a stalwart cleric of a righteous faith or perhaps an errant knight in shinning armour.

If, on the other hand, he wants to speaks with the party and wishes to impress them with his draconic awesomeness (but would rather not have to deal with the awkwardness of them peeing themselves) then he might adopt the cliched form of a tall, broad shouldered man in regal robes, cascading golden hair, a metallic sheen to his skin, glowing eyes, elongated fingernails, smoke curling from his nostrils and enough wealth displayed to make a king jealous. In short, he'll appear in whatever form will net him the desired reaction from those he approaches.

I suspect however that such an old timeless soul as a great wyrm gold dragon wouldn't feel the need to be so ostentatious. Why? He has nothing to fear, no need to impress and nothing to prove; he _knows_ how awesome he is. I'd suggest having your dragon appear as a kindly old monk with a  buddha-like serenity about him. He'd be dignified though unassuming, wise though humble, kind though detached. Or perhaps it could adopt the form of a small child; wise beyond its years though remaining light-hearted and innocent.

Hope that helps.


----------



## Mostlyjoe (Aug 31, 2010)

Also, figure out how strong the Dragon's Ego is.

Some would only assume "nobel" versions of whatever they turn into. Why by a hawk when you can be an Eagle, why be a beggar when you can pass yourselff as a landed nobel. Etc.


----------



## Thanael (Sep 6, 2010)

I've always had a problem with 3Es and no PFs alter form ability and Dragons. 

Iirc they loose most supernatural abilities in polymorphing to a human _and_ they loose their racial attribute modifiers. So it could well be that a grandwyrm gold dragon in human form has a Strengh of 10.  It boogles the mind.

I far prefer the depictions that are often used in novels (Road of the Patriarch comes to mind, also generally Shadowrun) where dragons in human form have superhuman strength and abilities.


----------



## Kaisoku (Sep 7, 2010)

I'm guessing you didn't even read the first reply to this thread (mine).

Polymorph just requires that you change your size modifiers, not remove all stats.
Like I stated in my first reply, a Great Wyrm changing into a Human would have 29 Str, 10 Dex and 21 Con. That's as good as some combat-focused players are _20th level_, and it's before any spells or magic items.

3e rules for changing forms was different, in that you got the physical scores of the creature you changed into, so perhaps that's where you are thinking of the "normal human strength".
Double-edged sword: a 5 Str Druid used to be able to change into a terrifyingly scary Polar Bear and ruin the enemies of nature with 27 Str. This has also been removed.


----------



## Thanael (Sep 7, 2010)

I did read it. But i didn't realize that PF uses alter self for the polymorph(humanoid) spell. Your post made it sound like this was a house rule suggestion.

Another great iprovement on 3.5 by Pathfinder. Go Paizo!


----------



## Azmyth (Sep 9, 2010)

In the soon to be released, episode 007 of Chronicles, we build an unusual Dragon Disciple in our Character Concept Workshop. We call him the Ice Dragoon.

Don't know if it will suit the OP's needs, but it might inspire some ideas.

Check it out (in a day or two)...


----------



## Thanael (Sep 15, 2010)

Kaisoku said:


> A Great Wyrm (Colossal) turning into a Human (Medium) and then applying the +2 Str bonus from Alter Self, will have the physical stats of Str 29, Dex 10, and Con 21... before any magic items or spells.




Actually the naturally shapechanging dragons (gold, brass, silver) have the change shape ability which allows them to use alter self or beast shape II to change into humanoid or animal forms, but _the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics)_. Retaining their Dragon ability scores is still impressive.


----------



## Kaisoku (Sep 15, 2010)

Yeah, if you are using the Changeshape ability instead of the spell _Alter Self_. If you use the spell, you do need to change (such as when a Red Dragon decides to mess around with a nearby city).

There's also the line in the change shape ability about how you supposedly can't change into anything one size smaller or larger. However, if I recall correctly, there's a post on the Paizo forums where a developer states that the intention is that the specific (any animal or humanoid) overrides the general rule (listed in the universal monster rules).
So hopefully that means Colossal Great Wyrms can change into SOMETHING (since I don't know of many gargantuan animals and humanoids... giants peak at Huge, and animals allow maybe a dinosaur or two).

*Edit*
For this particular case (the gold dragon), a 43 Strength humanoid should be it's own tip off that something is up.


----------



## Gfreak2x9 (May 17, 2013)

Hey guys I know that this thread is old but this is the closest thing that I could find, so here I go! I wanted to add a dragon in disguise to my campaign, but I don't know how to make it legit with rules! I'm going to include some back story on the region just to help put things in perspective.  If you don't care to read it please just skip ahead…

*Back Story*
The region is called “The Vale of Balderton.” Balderton is a small town to the south with a population of near 2,000. Humans and Dwarves co-exist very well in this community due to the fact that a large Dwarven Keep not far to the north.  The region itself had patches of forest that are quite large but as a whole, the area is a mostly plains and valleys with a large lake to the east, and mountains to the north, west, and south.  About 30 years ago the largest forested area was destroyed during a war with barbaric Orc tribes. The tribes united under one powerful chief who sought to lay low Balderton and the Dwarven Keep. At this time the Dwarves and Humans were on good terms, but when faced with a common enemy took up arms together. With the combined might of the Dwarves and Humans the Orcs suffred a crushing defeat. The forest the Orcs had taken migrated too was burned to the ground by the other races to ensure that any Orc who may have escaped their fury died in the blaze. The area that was once the largest forest is now referred to as “The Ruin” by the locals. Superstitious folk believe the place is cursed; the idea is encouraged by the small (7 total members) group of Druids living near Balderton who believe burning the forest upset the balance of all things in the area. It has been 30 years since the war ended, and now we come to the present time were the campaign begins. END

*SKIP TO HERE*
…The party has been doing various quests in the Vale of Balderton, and has recently reached level two! When they gain another few levels I wanted to add a Green Dragon in disguise! The dragon would be cursed (most likely the Pathfinder equivalent to Geez Quest) to walk the earth in human form until He/She helps a human settlement defeat a great enemy. I wanted to have the dragon join the party as a young human (with stunning green eyes being one of few hints as to what He/She is). Once the party has defeated the main villains in the area (with the help of the green Dragon), the dragon’s curse would be lifted! Immediately making the new primary focus of the campaign to slay the Green Dragon who wishes to lair in one of the nearby forest!  

Is this whole dragon in disguise thing legit? Are there any hoops  for me to jump through? If someone could please help me out I would really appreciate it! Thanks


----------



## Savage Wombat (May 17, 2013)

I never formally created rules for it, but I always wanted to build a feat that allowed a dragon to create a special "human form" that would let them keep more of their innate abilities, at the cost of limiting their ability to impersonate any human they chose.


----------



## (Psi)SeveredHead (May 17, 2013)

In the Dresden Files, they encounter one dragon in human form. Harry realizes it's a dragon because it breathes smoke from its nostrils _without_ a cigarette.

I vaguely recall reading an old D&D supplement where a group of dragons had "colonized" a human city, all in disguise. One was a while dragon with very poor shapeshifting skills, who could only look like an albino.


----------



## Starfox (May 19, 2013)

Kaisoku said:


> A Great Wyrm (Colossal) turning into a Human (Medium) and then applying the +2 Str bonus from Alter Self, will have the physical stats of Str 29, Dex 10, and Con 21... before any magic items or spells.




For creatures starting at size other than Small/Medium, you first change their attributes to account for the size change to Medium, then apply the modifiers form the transformation spell. 

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/cor...-schools/classic-arcane-schools/transmutation

The end result is still impressive, but not quote as outrageous.


----------



## MarkB (May 19, 2013)

The PF _Alter Self_ spell is a bit odd compared to the 3.5e version. Back in 3.5e it was the most minimal Polymorph effect, requiring you to assume a form of the same type as yourself - and in Pathfinder it's the same, _if_ you're starting out humanoid.

But in the hands of any other creature type it's a very low-cost "imitate humanoid" spell. When given to a dragon or demon or other such monstrous creature, it seems rather too powerful for its level. I can't help wondering whether that was the intent, or if the authors just didn't think in terms of non-humanoid casters.


----------



## Starfox (May 19, 2013)

Well, balance is mostly for PCs, who are as a rule humanoids. And f you play a nonhumanoid creature, having a simple (if short-lasting) way to interact with NPCs without causing attention seems like something that would facilitate play. And it cannot be used to imitate a specific individual.  I see no problem with it.


----------

