# Cost of D&D Editions, then and now



## delericho (Mar 6, 2014)

With the reveal that the 5e PHB is likely to cost $50, there has been a lot of discussion on several threads about how much books cost, and what that means in terms of inflation. Since the data is getting scattered, and since I have most of it handy (and don't want to have to track it down again in another few months), I thought I'd gather it here.

For reference, the inflation calculator I've used is here.

*1st Edition:* The Monster Manual was $9.95 in 1977 (Dragon 11). The PHB was published in 1978 (an advert appears in Dragon 18) but no price has been confirmed. The DMG was $15 in 1979 (Dragon 33, Sage Advice). This equates to $38.41 for the MM and $48.33 for the DMG today.

(My best guess for the PHB price would be $10, the same as the MM, which would be $35.88 today. This would give a total of approx $123 for the set. But please note that this is a *guess*!)

*2nd Ed:* PHB $20, DMG $18, MC1 $18, 1989. Prices taken from the back covers of the book, except the MC which came from Dragon's Previews from that time. This equates to $37.73 + $33.96 + $33.96 = approx $106 today. (Note that this gives a fairly narrow selection of monsters. To get a set comparable to any other edition, albeit a little more than the 1st Ed MM, you would also need MC2, adding $15 ($28.30) to the price.)

*2nd Ed "Black Cover":* PHB $25, DMG $20, MM $25, 1995. Prices taken from back covers of the book, except the DMG which came from Dragon's Previews from that time. This equates to $38.37 + $30.70 + $38.37 = approx $108 today.

*3e:* PHB $30, DMG $30, MM $30, 2000. Prices are for the second printing onwards - the first printing was $20 each, but this was a nefarious plot by WotC to give us an especially good deal. This equates to 3 x $40.75 = approx $122 today.

*3.5e:* PHB, DMG, MM $30, 2003. Prices are taken from the back cover of the books. This equates to 3 x $38.14 = approx $116 today.

*4e:* PHB, DMG, MM $35, 2008. Prices are taken from the back cover of the books. This equates to 3 x $38.03 = approx $116 today.

*Essentials:* One of two "Heroes of..." books, $20, "DM's Kit" $40, and "Monster Vault", $30, 2010. That equates to $21.45 + $42.91 + £32.18 = approx $96.50 today. (Note, however, that this gives a very narrow selection of classes. To get a set comparable to any previous PHB you would need the second "Heroes of..." book, adding a further $20 to the cost.)

Just for completeness, and I know it's not really an edition of D&D:

*Pathfinder:* Core Rulebook $50, Bestiary $40, 2009. Prices are taken from the back cover of the books. This equates to $54.52 + $43.61 = approx $98 today.

Some notes:

- I don't really have any agenda here, except to share some facts. Well, that and to gather the information so I don't need to track it down again at some future time. 

- I'm pretty sure those books are all priced as at release, so these figures should be accurate. It is, of course, possible I've made a mistake somewhere along the line.

- I haven't included the 1st Ed "orange spine" reprints here, because I don't have accurate data for those books.

I hope this is of at least a little use (or maybe interest) to someone!

(Edit: I've updated the 1st Ed values with my latest findings. I've also added Essentials to the list, and added caveats about the monster selection in 2nd Ed and the class selection in Essentials.)


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## delericho (Mar 6, 2014)

Aha! I've managed to find a price for the 1st Ed Monster Manual - the first advert I've found for it is in Dragon #11 (December 1977), which has it at $9.95 - the equivalent of $38.60. It's also 'reviewed' in issue #12, which gives the same price.


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## darjr (Mar 6, 2014)

Thanks for this!

I'm amazed that the PHB price seems to be lost.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Mar 6, 2014)

Yeah, I paid $10 each for my 1e PHB, MM, and DMG in about 1981; the MM still has a price tag on it from Toys R Us.


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## M.L. Martin (Mar 7, 2014)

*Rules Cyclopedia*: $24.95 in 1991 would be $42.85. 

  So if the D&D Next 'Player's Handbook' is comparable to *that *, with better art and a bit more room to breathe, it won't be too out of line.


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## Quickleaf (Mar 7, 2014)

Matthew L. Martin said:


> *Rules Cyclopedia*: $24.95 in 1991 would be $42.85.
> 
> So if the D&D Next 'Player's Handbook' is comparable to *that *, with better art and a bit more room to breathe, it won't be too out of line.




Yeah, this. I might think the BD&B rules are wonky, but the Rules Cyclopedia is my gold standard by judging all other gaming books. It's a complete game and I still reference it for ideas years later.

What would be interesting - a bit of unfounded optimism here - is if the 5e PHB is like the BD&D Rules Cyclopedia, the 5e DMG is like a meaty modern version of Gary Gygax's 1e DMG, and the 5e MM#1 was like the best of all the monster manuals combined (with interesting stats, ecology, monster harvesting, lairs for the most iconic monsters). That would be very nice


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## saskganesh (Mar 7, 2014)

IRC, Brick and mortar price for the PHB in Canada was $14.95 in 1979. MM was similar. DMG was more, maybe $18.95 ?

I can't recall my allowance. I did do yardwork for 1$ an hour, which eventually became $2.


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## Echohawk (Mar 9, 2014)

delericho said:


> *2nd Ed:* PHB $20, DMG $18, MC1 $18, 1989. Prices taken from the back covers of the book, except the MC which came from Dragon's Previews from that time. This equates to $37.73 + $33.96 + $33.96 = approx $106 today.



This calculation should probably include MC2 ($15), since both MC1 and MC2 were required to get the "core" set of monsters for AD&D 2nd Edition.


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## delericho (Mar 9, 2014)

Echohawk said:


> This calculation should probably include MC2 ($15), since both MC1 and MC2 were required to get the "core" set of monsters for AD&D 2nd Edition.




In each case I've only included the minimum required to play the game. Otherwise, you inevitably get bogged down in comparisons over what is "like for like" - the 1st Ed PHB, for example, has fewer classes than the 3e version, is black and white vs full colour, etc. (Conversely, the 1st Ed DMG is more essential for play than the equivalent volume in any edition since.)

In the case of the MC volumes, MC1 was comparable to the 1st Ed MM in terms of page count, although having one monster per page probably meant fewer monsters in total. But adding MC2 means it very definitely has more than the 1st Ed equivalent.

So, it's a tricky one. I don't think any perfect like-for-like comparison can ever really be made.


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## Steely Dan (Mar 9, 2014)

Basically, $50 is nothing these days, depending, does not mean what it used to.

Inflation/Number Bloat blows.


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## GMforPowergamers (Mar 9, 2014)

I find it funny not one book equals $50 and noe set equals $150


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## Morrus (Mar 9, 2014)

Using the data in the first post, I made a quick little graph.


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## Giltonio_Santos (Mar 9, 2014)

If 5E is shaping up as the most expensive D&D edition ever, I also expect it to be the most complete one. Look at 4E, for instance (and this is not an edition warring statement, just plain comparison): adjusted for inflation it's $116 without druids and bards, without frost giants, without metallic dragons, without gnomes and half-orcs. I mean, without a lot of reskinning, you cannot move a 3E campaign to 4E without at least a PHB II and a MM II.

Also, considering the fact that the game was created to be played with DDI, they were probably expecting people to invest an additional amount monthly to play with up to date rules (not only errata, but actual changes, like Magic Missile). If this is $150 for the full game, for real, we're getting a good deal considering WotC previous offerings.

Cheers!


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## Sentack (Mar 9, 2014)

Pathfinder does have it's equivalent of a DMG

http://paizo.com/products/btpy8ffn?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-GameMastery-Guide

Shouldn't that be included in the cost for Pathfinder?


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## delericho (Mar 9, 2014)

Sentack said:


> Pathfinder does have it's equivalent of a DMG
> 
> http://paizo.com/products/btpy8ffn?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-GameMastery-Guide
> 
> Shouldn't that be included in the cost for Pathfinder?




The GMG is a very different book, much more like 3e's DMGII. It's a strictly optional supplement for the game, not a requirement like any of the other books.


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## Cadence (Mar 10, 2014)

Sentack said:


> Pathfinder does have it's equivalent of a DMG
> 
> http://paizo.com/products/btpy8ffn?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-GameMastery-Guide
> 
> Shouldn't that be included in the cost for Pathfinder?




Following up on @_*delericho*_ 's reply - the Pathfinder Core Rulebok and Bestiary seem to contain all the necessary things from the 1e-to-4e DMGs that are needed to play. Unlike the standard 1e-4e statement that the DM needs the DMG, the back cover blurb on the PF Core book is "All player and Game Master rules in a single volume." 

In particular, the Core Rulebook contains chapters on the basics of GMing including encounter building and running a campaign; the background environment with weather, traps, and planes; creating NPCs; and magic items.  The Bestiary contains the rules for the special monster powers, creating your own monsters, and random encounter tables.


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## JEB (Mar 10, 2014)

Someone who only plays RPGs casually, or has never played a RPG, goes to a bookstore and sees D&D 5E's Player's Handbook on the shelf. They think it's pretty cool, but then they see the $50 price tag. "That's really expensive!", they think, and put it back.

Does anyone here think telling them "but it's just as expensive as the old books if you count inflation!" will change their mind?


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## Jan van Leyden (Mar 10, 2014)

JEB said:


> Does anyone here think telling them "but it's just as expensive as the old books if you count inflation!" will change their mind?




No, but telling the "Here's the starter set for you - and it's only 20$" might.


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## Zardnaar (Mar 10, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Using the data in the first post, I made a quick little graph.
> 
> View attachment 60904




3.0 was $60 in 2000. How come it is $122 adjusted for inflation  which has not doubled in 14 years?.$81 adjusted for inflation (MM and DMG were $20?) PHB from 1989 comes in at 37 compared to $50. If the PHB price tag s accurate it is the most expensive D&D in about 30+ years. Pathfinder core book is still $50 base price and that is DMG+PHB. PFRPG+Bestiary is $40 so the complete PF is $90 in 2014.


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## pemerton (Mar 10, 2014)

Zardnaar said:


> 3.0 was $60 in 2000. How come it is $122 adjusted for inflation  which has not doubled in 14 years?



This was explained by [MENTION=22424]delericho[/MENTION] in the OP: "Prices are for the second printing onwards".



Zardnaar said:


> Pathfinder core book is still $50 base price and that is DMG+PHB. PFRPG+Bestiary is $40 so the complete PF is $90 in 2014.



That tells us that the inflation-adjusted price of PF has dropped since 2009. It doesn't have any bearing on what the inflation-adjusted price was in 2009.


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## Zardnaar (Mar 10, 2014)

pemerton said:


> This was explained by @_*delericho*_ in the OP: "Prices are for the second printing onwards".
> 
> That tells us that the inflation-adjusted price of PF has dropped since 2009. It doesn't have any bearing on what the inflation-adjusted price was in 2009.




 Well if you can buy the core books of PF for $90 vs $150 for D&DN thats not a great deal. The $60 at launch deal ($81 now) probably helped catapult early momentum for 3rd ed so being cheap helps.


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## delericho (Mar 10, 2014)

Zardnaar said:


> Well if you can buy the core books of PF for $90 vs $150 for D&DN thats not a great deal.




Yeah, the PF price for comparison was a tricky one, since it's the only one from my comparison that's still in print (since I omitted Essentials). I'll leave it to you to draw any conclusions from that you wish. 



> The $60 at launch deal ($81 now) probably helped catapult early momentum for 3rd ed so being cheap helps.




This is definitely true. IMO, WotC did an exceptionally smart thing in offering that first printing of 3.0e steep discount - back then they were the new custodians, nobody knew what to expect from "the Magic guys", and there was a serious risk of them being rejected outright. But the discount cut through an awful lot of that (because at $20 even a sceptic might be persuaded to take the risk). And, of course, there was the OGL, and their exceptionally good relationship with Eric Noah's site, which also helped a great deal.


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## Morrus (Mar 10, 2014)

Zardnaar said:


> 3.0 was $60 in 2000. How come it is $122 adjusted for inflation  which has not doubled in 14 years?.$81 adjusted for inflation (MM and DMG were $20?) PHB from 1989 comes in at 37 compared to $50. If the PHB price tag s accurate it is the most expensive D&D in about 30+ years. Pathfinder core book is still $50 base price and that is DMG+PHB. PFRPG+Bestiary is $40 so the complete PF is $90 in 2014.




No idea. It's just the stats from the first post in a graphical format.


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## Dungeoneer (Mar 10, 2014)

Wow, I knew that the original D&D books were considered pricey at the time but I had no idea they topped out at over $100 adjusted for inflation!

Anyway, as far as the new PHB goes, I'm with those who are concerned that sticker shock will discourage impulse buys. Yes, starter set, etc., etc., but unless they go out of their way to make the starter set extremely attractive people usually prefer a complete book of rules so they can get an idea of the system. I just think they are going to discourage anyone who hasn't already made up their mind that to invest in 5.0.


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## Blackbrrd (Mar 10, 2014)

You could buy a 4e boxed set (PHB/DMG/MM) from amazon for 67$ for something like 2-3 years after launch. I do note that you have used the retail price, but how relevant is that price? For any buyers, the lowest price you can regularily get an item for, is what's relevant in my opinion. I am assuming that people shop around a little, but I might be mistaken?


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## Morrus (Mar 10, 2014)

Blackbrrd said:


> You could buy a 4e boxed set (PHB/DMG/MM) from amazon for 67$ for something like 2-3 years after launch. I do note that you have used the retail price, but how relevant is that price? For any buyers, the lowest price you can regularily get an item for, is what's relevant in my opinion. I am assuming that people shop around a little, but I might be mistaken?




You can buy 1E rulebooks for a couple of dollars on eBay, 40 years after launch.   Here's a 3E PHB for £11. I think the only sensible way to approach it is to use MSRP on the launch date.  Otherwise the discussion just becomes very silly very quickly.

In the long run, it doesn't matter.  All that matters is whether a given book is attractive enough to a given buyer to persuade them to buy it for the price shown. Stats like this are interesting, but they're not going to make any difference when someone's in the store looking at the book.


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## Blackbrrd (Mar 10, 2014)

Morrus said:


> You can buy 1E rulebooks for a couple of dollars on eBay, 40 years after launch.   Here's a 3E PHB for £11. I think the only sensible way to approach it is to use MSRP on the launch date.  Otherwise the discussion just becomes very silly very quickly.
> 
> In the long run, it doesn't matter.  All that matters is whether a given book is attractive enough to a given buyer to persuade them to buy it for the price shown. Stats like this are interesting, but they're not going to make any difference when someone's in the store looking at the book.




You are referring to used book prices. I was talking about widely available new books. MSRP isn't really interesting when you can buy the items at nearly half the price for the whole "shelf life" of the book. I am betting 5e will have the same pricing scheme. A high MSRP that you won't ever have to pay. 

In Norway you wouldn't even be allowed to refer to a rebate compared to the MSRP, except if they actually had actual sales of the books at full price within the last month, something I don't think amazon ever had.

My point is that the MSRP is going to be uninteresting, what will be interesting is the actual price the book will sell for (when new, not used). In other words the "rebated" price of 38$ is probably a lot closer to the real price of the 5e PHB, and the price point it would be interesting to see if people found too expensive or not.

I do find the price information about previous edition interesting though, mostly because in NOK, the prices are about the same due to a devaluation of the dollar compared to NOK, while the wages in NOK in the last 15 years have gone up 2x. In other words, The relative cost has gone down by around 50%...


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## Morrus (Mar 10, 2014)

Blackbrrd said:


> In Norway you wouldn't even be allowed to refer to a rebate compared to the MSRP, except if they actually had actual sales of the books at full price within the last month, something I don't think amazon ever had.




I don't really know what that means, but I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to refer to anything I want! 



> My point is that the MSRP is going to be uninteresting, what will be interesting is the actual price the book will sell for (when new, not used). In other words the "rebated" price of 38$ is probably a lot closer to the real price of the 5e PHB, and the price point it would be interesting to see if people found too expensive or not.




I'd agree with that -- I don't think many people will be paying MSRP for it.  Especially on Amazon.


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## Blackbrrd (Mar 10, 2014)

Morrus said:


> I don't really know what that means, but I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to refer to anything I want!




Ah lol 

"You" in this instance would be a retailer like Amazon (or rather, their Norwegian counterpart).


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## pedr (Mar 10, 2014)

I think the assertion is that a seller can't refer to a higher price than the price it is offering unless it has actually sold the item at a higher price previously. 

That is similar to a UK law, but we only restrict words like "was" or "sale price" rather than preventing a seller from saying "the manufacturer lists the price as x but we are offering it for y".


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## Klaus (Mar 10, 2014)

delericho said:


> In each case I've only included the minimum required to play the game. Otherwise, you inevitably get bogged down in comparisons over what is "like for like" - the 1st Ed PHB, for example, has fewer classes than the 3e version, is black and white vs full colour, etc. (Conversely, the 1st Ed DMG is more essential for play than the equivalent volume in any edition since.)
> 
> In the case of the MC volumes, MC1 was comparable to the 1st Ed MM in terms of page count, although having one monster per page probably meant fewer monsters in total. But adding MC2 means it very definitely has more than the 1st Ed equivalent.
> 
> So, it's a tricky one. I don't think any perfect like-for-like comparison can ever really be made.




I'd go with the "three initial books" for each edition, in whatever form they'd take. For 2e, that'd be PHB, DMG and MC 1 + 2. For Essentials, It'd be the HoFR, HoFK, DMK and MV.


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## adamc (Mar 10, 2014)

Jan van Leyden said:


> No, but telling the "Here's the starter set for you - and it's only 20$" might.




That depends what's in the box. The 4e starter box was pretty skimpy as far as content or usefulness goes.


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## adamc (Mar 10, 2014)

Morrus said:


> In the long run, it doesn't matter.  All that matters is whether a given book is attractive enough to a given buyer to persuade them to buy it for the price shown. Stats like this are interesting, but they're not going to make any difference when someone's in the store looking at the book.




I think economics suggests otherwise. Sure, some people aren't very price sensitive, but others (likely including newcomers) are more so.

My guess is that Wizards' has considered all this and believes that an expensive ($50) book with nice graphics will sell better than a cheaper book with less artwork. I don't care much for their artwork, so I'd favor the latter, but I'm willing to believe they know their market.

I think they need to provide a good online option that passes some of the cost-savings to the customer. I'd go for that.


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## Morrus (Mar 10, 2014)

adamc said:


> I think economics suggests otherwise. Sure, some people aren't very price sensitive, but others (likely including newcomers) are more so.
> 
> .




That's not what I said. I was referring to graphs about historical prices.


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## adamc (Mar 10, 2014)

Morrus said:


> That's not what I said. I was referring to graphs about historical prices.



Sorry to have misunderstood. I agree that historical prices, while interesting, won't have any real effect.


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## Umbran (Mar 11, 2014)

Morrus said:


> In the long run, it doesn't matter.  All that matters is whether a given book is attractive enough to a given buyer to persuade them to buy it for the price shown. Stats like this are interesting, but they're not going to make any difference when someone's in the store looking at the book.




The stats don't matter, in the sense that very few buyers will look at the stats and have them influence their buying decisions.

But, the stats can give us perspective on whether buyers will find it attractive enough.  Forget the stated price of the book, how much does it cost, relative to other things we buy?  How hard was it for us to scrape together the cost of a book in the past, as opposed to how hard it'd be today?


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## Mercurius (Mar 11, 2014)

Quickleaf said:


> What would be interesting - a bit of unfounded optimism here - is if the 5e PHB is like the BD&D Rules Cyclopedia, the 5e DMG is like a meaty modern version of Gary Gygax's 1e DMG, and the 5e MM#1 was like the best of all the monster manuals combined (with interesting stats, ecology, monster harvesting, lairs for the most iconic monsters). That would be very nice




This is such a great idea--and I share your hope (if not optimism)--that it deserves re-mentioning.



Blackbrrd said:


> You could buy a 4e boxed set (PHB/DMG/MM) from amazon for 67$ for something like 2-3 years after launch. I do note that you have used the retail price, but how relevant is that price? For any buyers, the lowest price you can regularily get an item for, is what's relevant in my opinion. I am assuming that people shop around a little, but I might be mistaken?






Morrus said:


> You can buy 1E rulebooks for a couple of dollars on eBay, 40 years after launch.   Here's a 3E PHB for £11. I think the only sensible way to approach it is to use MSRP on the launch date.  Otherwise the discussion just becomes very silly very quickly.




Not really. At the risk of belaboring Blackbrrd's point, its an important one. IIRC, until the ubiquity of the internet in the mid-90s there were no, or very few, discount options for books, so a cover price was what you actually payed most of the time, unless it was a bestseller or on sale for some other reason. D&D books were bought in game stores and big book stores and were rarely discounted. But for the last 15-20 years, we've had Amazon etc, and "MSRPs" only exist for in-store purchases. I'm guessing that the large majority of 5E PHBs will be purchased on Amazon or some other discounted option, so in a sense the net prices have gone down with 3E and 4E.


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## delericho (Mar 11, 2014)

Mercurius said:


> Not really. At the risk of belaboring Blackbrrd's point, its an important one. IIRC, until the ubiquity of the internet in the mid-90s there were no, or very few, discount options for books, so a cover price was what you actually payed most of the time, unless it was a bestseller or on sale for some other reason. D&D books were bought in game stores and big book stores and were rarely discounted. But for the last 15-20 years, we've had Amazon etc, and "MSRPs" only exist for in-store purchases.




While that's true, you can never be certain of getting a discount nor can you be certain _how much_ of a discount you will receive. As such, any attempt to do a comparison based on a discounted price is a fool's game - you're trying to do a comparison with a moving target.

The MSRP is really the only fixed value that allows a comparison to even be made. Using the MSRP instead of the "real price" may reduce the value of the comparison, but without it there's no comparison to be made.


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## delericho (Mar 11, 2014)

I've updated the OP with the figures for Essentials, and have added caveats about the selection of monsters in 2nd Ed's MC1 and about the selection of classes in Essentials - in both cases, a strong argument can be made that you should add an additional product to get a set for comparison.

(I haven't added those additional products to the calculated totals, though, because the games are playable without.)


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## Alphastream (Mar 11, 2014)

delericho said:


> I've updated the OP with the figures for Essentials, and have added caveats about the selection of monsters in 2nd Ed's MC1 and about the selection of classes in Essentials - in both cases, a strong argument can be made that you should add an additional product to get a set for comparison.



Very cool. Could you add in a DMG type book for Pathfinder, for comparison of "three books"? I would argue that the 3E DMG wasn't really needed either, but a 3-core set seems like the right method of comparison across editions.


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## billd91 (Mar 11, 2014)

Alphastream said:


> Very cool. Could you add in a DMG type book for Pathfinder, for comparison of "three books"? I would argue that the 3E DMG wasn't really needed either, but a 3-core set seems like the right method of comparison across editions.




I don't think that would make for a valid comparison. It's less important to compare the specific number of volumes than the volumes that contain roughly equivalent content and purpose. The PF Core Rulebook contains most of the rule material of the 3.5 DMG including encounter design, experience and treasure awards, magic items, NPC design, and environmental rules.

And I don't think I would argue that the DMG was not really needed in 3e considering the content it had.


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## delericho (Mar 11, 2014)

Alphastream said:


> Very cool. Could you add in a DMG type book for Pathfinder, for comparison of "three books"?




I'm _really_ reluctant to do so, because the Pathfinder GMG is very definitely an optional book, more akin to the 3.5e DMGII than anything else. The PF Core Rulebook really does do double-duty as the combined PHB/DMG.

Still, if you really want that data: the GMG was published in 2010 and cost $40 ($42.91 today). That takes Pathfinder's total to approx $140.

(You might also be interested in looking here for my thoughts on why PF seems comparitively lower-priced compared to D&D. Or not - that's very much speculation on my part.  )



> I would argue that the 3E DMG wasn't really needed either, but a 3-core set seems like the right method of comparison across editions.




I don't think that's valid, though - the 3e DMG had the tables for XP, the rules for NPCs (including the NPC classes), and the magic item descriptions. Indeed, some of that material doesn't appear even in the SRD, so without the book there's no (legal) source for the data. (And, incidentally, all of that information appears in the PF Core Rulebook.)

If you want me to nominate an 'unnecessary' DMG, I'd be inclined to go for the 2nd Ed one (though that has magic items) or the 4e one (though that has Skill Challenges and Page 42).


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## Scorpio616 (Mar 11, 2014)

Though how complete was the GM's material in the PF rulebook? There have been many so called complete RPG books that were really a gimped half system with the book BLOATED with fluff with the rest of the rules tucked into a Player's Companion, GM's Companion and sprinkled across a dozen faction / class books.


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## Mark CMG (Mar 12, 2014)

delericho said:


> *1st Edition:* The Monster Manual was $9.95 in 1977 (Dragon 11). The PHB was published in 1978 (an advert appears in Dragon 18) but no price has been confirmed. The DMG was $15 in 1979 (Dragon 33, Sage Advice). This equates to $38.41 for the MM and $48.33 for the DMG today.
> 
> (My best guess for the PHB price would be $10, the same as the MM, which would be $35.88 today. This would give a total of approx $123 for the set. But please note that this is a *guess*!)





PHB was $10 when it first came out, IIRC, as you surmise.


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## JEB (Mar 12, 2014)

Just to note, the MSRP is plenty important when it comes to purchases by casual gamers and anyone new to D&D - because they're most likely to discover the book in a physical store. Online purchases offer better deals, but in general, online buyers were already looking for that product in the first place. (That may change if online retailers get better at re-creating the "impulse buy", however.)

While there are physical stores that offer discounts on books, most don't, and those that can rarely discount as heavily as online retailers. So the MSRP should not be dismissed.

(Maybe you'd see near-online prices at big-box retailers... but I'd be shocked to see the PHB in Wal-Mart or Tesco.)


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## MerricB (Mar 12, 2014)

Alphastream said:


> Very cool. Could you add in a DMG type book for Pathfinder, for comparison of "three books"? I would argue that the 3E DMG wasn't really needed either, but a 3-core set seems like the right method of comparison across editions.




Given that the 3E DMG had the magic items in it, and they were slightly important for game balance, I wouldn't have wanted to run 3E without it!

In contrast, the GMG has nothing in it that you require for running a Pathfinder game. It's really a late addition to the line and rather superfluous.


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## Mistwell (Mar 12, 2014)

OK I finally found a reliable source for MSRP on the AD&D 1e books.  This is the original order form from Dungeon Hobby Shop in 1981 (owned and run by TSR at the time):







I have no reason to believe those prices in 1981 were different on first publication date (and I got prior confirmation the $15 DMG price was accurate for it's first publication date).  So, let's use these numbers, and run them from their first publication date (which are MM 1977, PHB 1978, DMG 1979), using the Government inflation calculator:

MM 1977 $12 = $46.32.
PHB 1978 $12 = $43.05.
DMG 1979 $15 = $48.33.

So that adds up to: $137.70 in 2014 dollars.  An average of $45.90 each.

I am guessing that, had WOTC decided to release the books one-per-year like TSR originally did (2014, 2015, 2016), that $4.05 difference would disappear with the additional inflation.


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## Mercurius (Mar 12, 2014)

delericho said:


> While that's true, you can never be certain of getting a discount nor can you be certain _how much_ of a discount you will receive. As such, any attempt to do a comparison based on a discounted price is a fool's game - you're trying to do a comparison with a moving target.
> 
> The MSRP is really the only fixed value that allows a comparison to even be made. Using the MSRP instead of the "real price" may reduce the value of the comparison, but without it there's no comparison to be made.




Look, I get what you are saying and love your study but the simple fact of the matter is that the MSRP means significantly less in the Age of Amazon than it did in the Age of Waldenbooks. This is true of more than just D&D books, but just about all items. In fact, many manufacturers artificially inflate their MSRPs because they know they'll be discounted.

Anyhow, I think the Age of Internet editions - 3E and beyond - should be viewed with a big asterisk, especially once you get to 4E (and presumably 5E) when a huge percentage of sales came from online. So while your study accurately represents the cost of _cover price _for different editions, it doesn't accurately represent the price people actually pay, nor the start-up cost of the edition.


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## JEB (Mar 12, 2014)

Mercurius said:


> Look, I get what you are saying and love your study but the simple fact of the matter is that the MSRP means significantly less in the Age of Amazon than it did in the Age of Waldenbooks. This is true of more than just D&D books, but just about all items. In fact, many manufacturers artificially inflate their MSRPs because they know they'll be discounted.
> 
> Anyhow, I think the Age of Internet editions - 3E and beyond - should be viewed with a big asterisk, especially once you get to 4E (and presumably 5E) when a huge percentage of sales came from online. So while your study accurately represents the cost of _cover price _for different editions, it doesn't accurately represent the price people actually pay, nor the start-up cost of the edition.




Yes, it's true that gamers will not likely be paying $50 for the D&D 5th Edition Player's Handbook. But gamers already know that D&D exists, and already know where to look online. By contrast, physical stores - at least those that stock items like a D&D Player's Handbook - usually sell their goods at the MSRP, or near to it. Which means people with only a passing interest in D&D, or totally new to the game, will be faced with that $50 price tag. And that's surely going to discourage interest, which is bad for D&D and bad for RPGs in the long term.


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## Zardnaar (Mar 12, 2014)

Mercurius said:


> Look, I get what you are saying and love your study but the simple fact of the matter is that the MSRP means significantly less in the Age of Amazon than it did in the Age of Waldenbooks. This is true of more than just D&D books, but just about all items. In fact, many manufacturers artificially inflate their MSRPs because they know they'll be discounted.
> 
> Anyhow, I think the Age of Internet editions - 3E and beyond - should be viewed with a big asterisk, especially once you get to 4E (and presumably 5E) when a huge percentage of sales came from online. So while your study accurately represents the cost of _cover price _for different editions, it doesn't accurately represent the price people actually pay, nor the start-up cost of the edition.





 Helps to compare apples with apples as not all of us live in countries where you can get discounts. To get free shipping here for example I have to spend $125 on product from Amazon so I can't buy a PHB for $37.


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## delericho (Mar 12, 2014)

Mistwell said:


> OK I finally found a reliable source for MSRP on the AD&D 1e books.  This is the original order form from Dungeon Hobby Shop in 1981 (owned and run by TSR at the time):
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The OP cited the sources for the DMG and MM prices ($15 and $10) at first publication. (It also made it clear that the PHB didn't have a confirmed price.)

As for the PHB, the reason to think it may be different is very simple: inflation.

The rate of inflation in the late 70's was very high (a cumulative rate of 39.4% between 1978 and 1981, meaning $10 in 1978 is close to $14 in 1981). A price of $12 in 1981 is broadly in line with the known price of $15 for the tenth printing a few more years later, and with the surmised (again, not confirmed) price of $10 in 1978.

And the 1st Ed PHB, more than any other book on the list, was reprinted often (19 printings in all, including one _after_ 2nd Ed was released). That must surely make the price more likely to drift with inflation, because all those production costs will have risen along with everything else.


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## Alphastream (Mar 12, 2014)

MerricB said:


> Given that the 3E DMG had the magic items in it, and they were slightly important for game balance, I wouldn't have wanted to run 3E without it!
> 
> In contrast, the GMG has nothing in it that you require for running a Pathfinder game. It's really a late addition to the line and rather superfluous.



Yeah, that makes sense!

It's interesting to ponder whether an edition should aim for the 2-book model or not. I tend to think that for the second tier of RPGs (13th Age, Eclipse Phase, FATE, Numenera) a single book with rules for both DMs and players is a more compelling purchase - and that the audience needs to be compelled to sign up at a low cost. A secondary monster book becomes rather easy to add on, but then you are done... unless you like it so much you wish to buy more. Numenera is a good example. You can just pick up that core book, or the core book and monster book, or you can buy a ton of extra stuff. If a company is heavily counting on pdf revenue, then having the 2-core model can lead to more light purchases. You didn't purchase three books, you purchased two books and then a small mountain of cheap pdfs over time, creating more spread-out revenue. 

On the other hand, some of the Kickstarter RPGs have added so much page count that the single book is really two. Numenera, at 416 pages, is larger than the AD&D PHB and DMG combined. I personally would rather some of these unwieldy tomes were actually two separate books. Honestly, for a game that isn't my primary RPG, I would like a quick-run booklet of about 20 pages so I could just enjoy the experience more easily. As Kickstarter matures we may see some weariness on the part of the audience. How many 300+ "maybe I'll play this once" RPGs do we need? Perhaps that will drive game publishers to consider a lighter model - single small book and then expansions. FIASCO is a good example of a great game with a small book that exactly meets what the audience needs, since it is a game most will play infrequently but want to easily pack, pick-up, and run. I've yet to run Numenera, and the size of it is the primary reason. I would have easily taken a quick-start printout to conventions and played a pick-up game if such a thing existed. I've traveled to various conventions with just FIASCO or the quick-start rules and pregens for Shadowrun or Savage Worlds, because it's so much easier. (And, with 4E, the stability of the game meant I could travel without any rule books at all, just the adventure and pregens.) 

Traditionally, for D&D it made sense to use a 3-book model. It could and can count on the audience that will buy a 3-book series, sight unseen. Indeed, initial pre-orders and sales have climbed with every edition from every account I've ever read. A 3-core model is good for the bottom line, and also creates a solid foundation for everything else you release. Realistically, the intro player is still purchasing just one book, and it is simpler for not containing DM information. Has anything change in the market to make this no longer the case? I haven't seen it. If anything, Pathfinder is now at this level and could also consider a 3-book core for its next edition.

Where RPGs (including D&D) have always suffered was with supplements. After the core books, each supplement has diminishing returns. While MM2 and Ultimate Melee Classes might attract many, MM14 just doesn't have the same pull. At some point, Ultimate Complete Book of Animal Companions II isn't covering its printing costs. There are exceptions (Dark Sun was the best-selling 4E setting, even though it came later than FR or Eberron), but in general every additional release declines in revenue. For some RPGs it has been a deathknell - forcing them into bankruptcy as they struggle to find a compelling way to generate more revenue. The answer has always been to release a new edition and re-release the same subjects again in a slightly different fashion (let's call the undead book "Ultimate Necromaner's Book" this time!). Does the 3-book or 2-book model change that picture at all? I don;t think it is clear. 

If anything, I would guess the 2-core or 3-core model isn't a big deal for the top tier of D&D and Pathfinder. They won't struggle to get the core book sales and nothing may change the secondary book sale issues. For those companies, the path to victory is in diversification into other more lucrative areas. Licensing, movies, board games, iOS games, Facebook games... those can add up to millions far faster than any RPG print model. You want a happy core audience of devoted RPG fans to breathe life into all the other vehicles. A couple of weeks back I was in the stands before my son's basketball practice. Another dad taps me on the shoulder. He had seen my playing Lords of Waterdeep on the iOS... and he happened to be playing as well. He's a board gamer, not an RPG guy, and yet here we are - random strangers enjoying the same thing (and providing revenue through licensing).


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## Iosue (Mar 12, 2014)

Mearls and Co. have been extremely closed-lipped regarding possible products.  However, there are these two tweets from Mearls:



> *John Proudfoot ‏@GX_Sigma  9 Mar 2013
> @mikemearls What do you think are the most important things the 5e "DMG" needs to include, besides rules modules? (eg. worldbuilding advice)*
> 
> Mike Mearls @mikemearls
> ‏@GX_Sigma we were just talking about this today; will likely include little DM advice, assume you are an expert DM.






> *Thomas F. Johnson ‏@tbok1992  Apr 20
> @mikemearls Also, Healing Surges and non-clerical healing are sorely missed in Next.*
> 
> Mike Mearls @mikemearls
> @tbok1992 DMG will let DMs define hit points for campaign, alter regain rate




That first one in particular suggests to me that the DMG will be completely optional.  It will be the book that holds the various campaign level modules for really changing up the core game.  That's why it will assume you are an expert DM.  It's going to assume you've played before, you have a sense of what you want D&D to do for you, and you'll be ready to try the various modules and dials in the DMG.

Thus, I really think that, if the $50 price tag for the PHB is true, it will truly be a largely complete game, like the Pathfinder Corebook.  It may only lack a bestiary.  If so, I expect the idea is that you can buy the starter set for cheap to get the bestiary in there, or else spring $30 or $40 on the Monster Manual, which will probably very Monster Vault-like.

The more I think about it, the more this makes sense.

Starter Set - The basic game as Mearls described earlier.  Basically, the playtest as it exists now with the core four races, plus the core four classes collapsed into their most basic form (Cleric of Light with Priest Background, Path of the Warrior Fighter with Soldier Background, Evoker Wizard with Sage Background, Thieving Rogue with Guild Thief Background), with the background serving as class features.  10 levels, with a campaign adventure that'll take you there from 1st level.  Bestiary for those 10 levels of monsters.  The game is targeted for new and casual gamers, but can appeal to fans of B/X.  The 10-level campaign provides structure enough for even the most novice of players to run a game every week, allowing plenty of opportunity for people to really get hooked without a huge buy-in.  Some folks will never play again after completing part or all of the campaign, but some who do continue will want more options.  Enter...

...the Player's Handbook - The rulebook of choice for experienced players, fitting for both long-timers looking to play the new edition and the relative new folks transitioning from the Starter Set.  The Player's Handbook contains all the rules that you need to play, with many new options for classes, subclasses, backgrounds and feats.  And yet the Starter Set players can smoothly transition in with their characters entirely compatible.  The book also includes a few optional rules for tweaking your game a certain way.  If it doesn't have monsters, Starter Set folk can still use their Starter Set Bestiary.

Here, initial buy in for a new player is $20, with the $50 PHB a reasonable step up.  The veteran player looking to get into 5e need only pay $70 to get a complete game, with campaign and bestiary, much cheaper than having to buy three $30+ books.  Furthermore, WotC doesn't have to try and rush to get all three books finished by GenCon.  The Starter Set and/or the PHB are the game.

The old 3 book model is obsolete.  It made sense in 1977, when the game had been spread over 7 or 8 pamphlets and countless Strategic Review/Dragon articles, and you had OD&D still in print as well as the Holmes Basic Set, and each book was essentially a compilation compatible with what was already out there.  It was workable in the 80s, when B/X and BECMI were funnelling in the new players, but after the fad days of the early 80s it started to split the market.  It started to show its age in the 90s, when TSR started cycling through a bunch of basic sets to try and get new players to buy the books.  It's flaws were covered over with the hype of 3e, the mass-market was largely abandoned for a greater piece of the gamer market pie, and Adkinson and WotC were happy for it to be a loss leader.  But finally it was exposed in 2008, when WotC found you could sell Starter Sets with no problem, but that didn't mean folks were willing to make the jump to the 3 hardcovers.  Essentials was an attempt to find a new model, but it was obviously flawed, with waaay too much duplication.

That's not even getting into the greater reliance and preference for digital media.  As screwed up as the promised Digital Initiative turned out, DDI was still one of 4e's greatest successes.  So going back to making your customers buy 3 books totaling $90+ in order to get a complete game?  Not going to happen.  Nobody uses that model.  5e would be dead in the water.

But they can have their cake and eat it, too.  A full basic game, fuller than the 4e starter set, fuller than the Pathfinder Beginner's Box, reasonably priced, and able to be played casually, that expands the market.  A Player's Handbook that is all the book you need to play, with loads of character options not found in the Starter Set.  Frontload cost to the Starter Set and PHB, because that's what most people getting into the game will buy.  An optional Monster Manual for people who want _moar monsters_.  An optional Dungeon Master's Guide that contains all sorts of new rules and modules for people who want to tweak their game.  Online DMing advice and digital tools.  Put out PDF and Kindle versions, and this game is good to go.  You still have your traditional Basic Set, Players Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual.  But now they aren't a barrier to expanding the game.


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## Alphastream (Mar 12, 2014)

Iosue said:


> So going back to making your customers buy 3 books totaling $90+ in order to get a complete game?  Not going to happen.  Nobody uses that model.  5e would be dead in the water.



Each 3-core set of books has outsold the previous one. The AD&D Monster Manual released at the end of 1977, had an initial print run of 50,000 copies. Over the next 12 years it was reprinted 15 times. The PHB was released in August of '78 and sold 10,000 copies in 3 months. The 2E PHB sold 289,000 copies in 1998. The D&D boxed set was said to have sold a million copies in one year (presumably '89). 3E was said by Dancey to have outsold 2E by a wide margin, selling 300,000 copies in 30 days (!!!!) and yet both pre-orders and initial sales for 4E were even stronger. 

According to Dancey (not that I necessarily agree, mind you), core books have been 80% of the profit for D&D. Why lower that? 

D&D has never had a problem selling core books. The problem for all RPGs has been sustaining sales beyond the core book(s). The very specific problem for WotC has been meeting far larger expectations than anyone else has - needing to make $50-100 Million in annual revenues. The likely path to that has little to do with the core book model (though the strength of the RPG's fan base does matter).

(Also worth noting that even the sales of the OD&D set at the end of 1974 exceed the sales of many small RPG publishers today. The strength of D&D (and now Pathfinder) is just on an entirely different scale than other RPGs.)


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## Jester David (Mar 12, 2014)

Just some inflation related graphs I was working on to compare buying power then and now:





I marked the dates of edition releases in pink.


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## delericho (Mar 13, 2014)

Iosue said:


> But they can have their cake and eat it, too.  A full basic game, fuller than the 4e starter set, fuller than the Pathfinder Beginner's Box, reasonably priced, and able to be played casually, that expands the market.




Unless B&N got it wrong (a distinct possibility, of course), the 5e Starter Set is set to be $20, the same as the 4e Red Box and considerably less than the $35 Pathfinder Beginner Box. If we assume that the Red Box was fairly priced (and I see no reason to assume WotC were ripping us off), that strongly suggests that the contents of that box are an accurate representation of what $20 gets you.

So, unless WotC are happy to provide the Starter Set as a significant loss leader, I really can't see the new set containing any more than the 4e version, and certainly not more than the PFBB. What they _can_ do is rearrange the material to try to fit more levels in, but even then there's only so much can be done.

Our best hope for a really good starter set is that B&N got it wrong.


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## Iosue (Mar 13, 2014)

delericho said:


> Unless B&N got it wrong (a distinct possibility, of course), the 5e Starter Set is set to be $20, the same as the 4e Red Box and considerably less than the $35 Pathfinder Beginner Box. If we assume that the Red Box was fairly priced (and I see no reason to assume WotC were ripping us off), that strongly suggests that the contents of that box are an accurate representation of what $20 gets you.
> 
> So, unless WotC are happy to provide the Starter Set as a significant loss leader, I really can't see the new set containing any more than the 4e version, and certainly not more than the PFBB. What they _can_ do is rearrange the material to try to fit more levels in, but even then there's only so much can be done.
> 
> Our best hope for a really good starter set is that B&N got it wrong.



To clarify, when I say "a fuller game", I mean fuller in the sense of 10 levels vs. the 5 of the PFBB and the (barely) 2 of the Essentials Red Box.  I don't mean all the bells and whistles of tokens, full color poster-size maps/battle mats, and the like.

That said, the Red Box was one 32 page book, one 64 page book, 7 sheets of power cards, 4 character sheets, 1 poster size dungeon map (double sided), and 1 sheet of cardboard tokens.  The books in particular were, IMO, inefficiently used.  The entirety of the Player's Book was the "build a character as you choose your own adventure".  The Dungeon Master's Book was better, but even that had 18 pages taken up by the two-page Encounter presentation.  A 5e starter set will not need the power cards, nor the tokens, and 4 character sheets can easily be turned into one page in the players book.

Or to look at it another way, Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle was very much a prototype starter set in line with what Mearls has laid out with what they imagine the basic game to look like.  It was 270-some pages, and was priced at $29.95.  That was a special limited edition collector's item, that also had to cover the cost of including a Gale Force 9 miniature with every pre-order.  The 4e Monster Vault was also a box set with a 256-page book, a 32-page adventure, and 10 sheets of color cardboard tokens, priced at 29.95.  I don't think it will kill their profit margin to offer 270 pages of rules including a 10-level campaign, and a set of dice for $20.


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## Alphastream (Mar 13, 2014)

There has been a mind-numbing number of introductory boxed sets for D&D, covering every edition several times over. Each of them has some positives (I have enjoyed looking over them) and some negatives, because it is very hard to provide the right balance. 

On one hand, you want to provide a new player with a proper introduction to the game, _as their first RPG_. That requires a certain take on language and how you provide the information. The 4E Red Box's idea of making a character as you make choices in the adventure was a novel take on that. It is also worth looking at the 3E sets, one of which really took the approach of quick-start rules, where you are basically taking a pregen and running through a simple adventure. The original Moldvay Basic set (which I started with) tried to simplify the normal rules, to mixed success. The original Mentzer Red Box is very much written for a new player - its first few pages talk you through an adventure and the language is for a brand new player. 

On the other hand, you also want to provide some utility. Ideally, you would use this box more than one. That's where the 4E set can fall behind the Moldvay set, which could stand on its own and keep you entertained for years. 

On a third hand, you want to have sales from existing players. The product would ideally appeal to gamers experienced with other RPGs but not D&D, to gamers who haven't played D&D in a while but played an older edition, and to gamers of the previous edition who already know they will be buying the actual game. The 4E Red Box didn't provide much more than maps to a 4E player that had the core books. Cardboard tokens work for some DMs, but are a waste for DMs with a minis collection. 

All of that is very hard to balance. Realistically, the company likely chooses a direction and then has to hope the designer delivers a solid first draft. They are balancing a bunch of products, and you can't just focus and fine-tune that one product to perfection. Moldvay and Mentzer pretty much went through the same thing - the differences in approach are due to the individual takes on the right balance, rather than any genius planning by TSR. 

I personally would lean toward an intro box that has the following:
- A player booklet that provides the "suck you in" intro for a brand new player, then walks you through how to play the pregens. This could be 4 booklets, as with the 3E intro, but that's more expensive.
- 4 pregens, full color double-sided with a few tick boxes where you choose one or another option (to get you in that mentality of building your own PC). For example, you might choose between two backgrounds, or between two weapons.
- A rules book where it provides what you need for levels 1-3, creating a clear incentive to graduate to the full product.
- A DM adventure booklet that guides you through running each encounter/scene of a short adventure. To add collector appeal, I would make the adventure a "lost" part of a classic adventure, such as an additional 'just found' cave in the Caves of Chaos. 
- 4 color special-paint minis, so minis collectors want to buy this and players and DMs want to buy more minis. Cardboard tokens for the monsters in the adventure.
- A color poster map. One side is general layout, the second is a battlemap for the exciting final room.

That probably blows the budget, so maybe the minis could be sold separately, and buying the intro box could provide a coupon for a slight reduction? That could entice the purchaser to keep purchasing. It's also worth considering an adventure that really is designed to work as "the default intro adventure for D&D". This would be something any DM, no matter their experience level, could use to bring in new players. Something good enough you would run it many times (the way many DMs run ToEE over and over again). In that case, the adventure would need an accompanying book that could be used by new DMs and then no longer used. Who knows. This is why I enjoy the material instead of selling it!


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## pemerton (Mar 14, 2014)

Iosue said:


> The more I think about it, the more this makes sense.
> 
> Starter Set - The basic game as Mearls described earlier.
> 
> ...





Iosue said:


> Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle was very much a prototype starter set in line with what Mearls has laid out with what they imagine the basic game to look like.  It was 270-some pages, and was priced at $29.95.  That was a special limited edition collector's item, that also had to cover the cost of including a Gale Force 9 miniature with every pre-order.  The 4e Monster Vault was also a box set with a 256-page book, a 32-page adventure, and 10 sheets of color cardboard tokens, priced at 29.95.  I don't think it will kill their profit margin to offer 270 pages of rules including a 10-level campaign, and a set of dice for $20.



You paint a picture of a nice starter set.


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