# Fire Mountain Games - 5 years since funding - communication thread



## TheSword (May 17, 2018)

Hello all, this thread is intended to be a method of communication for anyone thoroughly scammed by Gary McBride in the Throne Of Night Kickstarter. I’m very wary of the comments section of Kickstarter in question being shut down and therefore being cut off from all other backers.

The Kickstarter was funded to the tune of $40,000 back in May 2013 by just over 300 backers. The last time we heard from the creator was October 2015. He’s ignored private emails, letters to his address and contacts from Kickstarter themselves. most frustratingly he’s backed over 300 other kickstarters in that period demonstrating that not only does he regularly log on to kickstart but that Kickstarter have benefited from his ongoing financial investment - effectively using our money. Some have said there is an argument that they have therefore used their platform to enable a fraud by GmB that they have then benefited from financially. By not blocking his account (as their terms and conditions say they are able to do) they have not done everything reasonable in their power to encourage Gary to communicate with us.

The complete silence for three years  is clearly a breach of kickstarters code of practice. The lack of communication almost certainly indicates a fraud has been perpetuated and many backers intend to take legal action. Most frustratingly of all, we know from communications with the artists, the the artwork and maps for the entire seven book project has been completed. We have no way of getting access to it though. in short this thread is for people who have been royally doinked to keep in touch.

Presumably Gary McBride has supported hundreds of rpg kickstarters for his home games. On the slim chance that a participant in those games reads this thread, please can you attempt to talk some sense into Gary, before legal fees start escalating.

Any backers or industry professionals, we’d love to hear your thoughts?

Mods: I may have posted this in the wrong place but I say that it was about third party publishers and Kickstarter so it made sense. Please move if there is a better location.

Posters: In order to keep this thread from being locked or deleted please refrain from threats or abuse against Gary or other parties. Let’s keep I professional and be the better people.

So far backers that have posted are
 @_*kevin_video*_ @_*Mirko Hess*_ @_*TheSword*_ @_*Alzrius *_[FONT=&quot]@Jaynay27 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]@Jenner2057 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]@Zaister[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
Welcome all, particularly anyone new to Enworld, it’s a great site. I’m just sorry it’s in these circumstances.

[Edit updated for new backers]


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## Libertad (May 18, 2018)

I am not a backer, but I wrote an extensive article about the Throne of Night KickStarter back in late 2015. Here is a link to the blog post.

It seems that little has changed in the interim years. If I happened to miss any other significant developments, please feel free to correct me!


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## kevin_video (May 18, 2018)

It's good to have this exist.


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## Mirko Hess (May 18, 2018)

Great idea. Good to have the thread.


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## TheSword (May 18, 2018)

Thanks for moving mods. It definitely looked weird in the announcements section.

I wonder how many people are following the Kickstarter still, or if it’s just down to a handful.


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## jaynay27 (May 18, 2018)

Backer here, checking in. This whole scam, and kickstarter's cavalier attitude ('not our problem') is beyond a joke.


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## TheSword (May 18, 2018)

Hi Jaynay27. I’ll update the first post to be a bit of a roll call as backers post.


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## TheSword (May 18, 2018)

Libertad said:


> I am not a backer, but I wrote an extensive article about the Throne of Night KickStarter back in late 2015. Here is a link to the blog post.
> 
> It seems that little has changed in the interim years. If I happened to miss any other significant developments, please feel free to correct me!




I did read your article when you first posted it. It was shared amongst the backers way back when and is a good commentary. You are right, nothing has changed. Many of us hoped the convention of 5 years to complete a Kickstarter would give Gary a spur to release something but alas no joy.

You’re also spot on that for many people Pathfinder is no longer relevant, and any release would be too little too late. Many just want their money back. I’d written that off a long time ago, but I would like the art and the maps.


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## Alzrius (May 18, 2018)

I went in on the Throne of Night Kickstarter for $200. 

At that pledge level ("GEN CON SPECIAL" of which I was one of only four backers), I was supposed to receive PDFs of all six adventures (I received the two PDFs that went out) and signed softcover copies of all six books (which were never made; I heard that the first two books were briefly available as PODs on DriveThruRPG, but are now PDF-only after people complained). 

For what it's worth, I did receive the Gen Con-exclusive material; we got to meet Gary McBride (who did seem like a nice guy), play in a brief Throne of Night game with him, and received the exclusive adventure "First Voyage of the Helbrandr." But even so, not receiving the other books I paid for still rankles me.

EDIT: Hm, the blog post linked above has a note from Fire Mountain Games' artist Michael Clarke saying that the first two Throne of Night books were never offered in POD format. My mistake there.


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## Jenner2057 (May 18, 2018)

Backer here as well. I'm still around keeping an eye on this project but I can say this whole experience turned me off from ever backing another Kickstarter. The lack of any sort of accountability from the creator - or involvement/enforcement from Kickstarter themselves - is enough to keep me from doing this again.


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## Zaister (May 18, 2018)

I'm a backer, too, at the $120 level, with a total of $170 including addons and shipping to Germany.


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## Libertad (May 18, 2018)

This is not to deflect the very legitimate grievances people have with Gary McBride who still owes communication and an apology, but I just recalled that apparently his OneBookShelf account was hacked. When someone gave a 5 star review to Way of the Wicked Book One, there was a "Creator Reply" which on DTRPG is from an author/publisher. Instead it was this:



> Gary McBride and Fire Mountain Games are a scam! They funded these products with KIckstarter, are now making money on them here, but have not provided their backers with the rewards they promised! Don\'t buy anything from these thieves and lairs!




I alerted OBS over this back in the day, although this reply is still up to this day. One could interpret it as Gary caring so little about his business that he doesn't even bother to combat a serious security breach. This happened well after the scandal of no communication, so I don't think it's a case of "hacker took over his accounts and ruined the KickStarter."


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## kevin_video (May 18, 2018)

I backed the project for $94 US. And as a Canadian, that's a huge amount because at the time our dollar _sucked_. Funny enough, I didn't even remember why it was so much when it came time to fill out the survey. When I did the rewards I somehow short $5 and my last message to Gary was that I couldn't figure out why I hadn't maxed out and if he could remind me why it might that amount. I probably didn't word it very well because his final response was to not sweat the $5 because of everything I'd done to help promote it. I think he understood it as my going OVER the $5. It's too bad that was our final communication. I would have bought the print editions, but I knew full well all the mistakes that needed fixing, and wanted to wait for the second printing with all of the fixes.

*TheSword* is correct about Gary ignoring snail mail. I have sent two letters to him over the years. Both pleading with him to get in touch with me and to let me help. The final message I got from Michael Clarke (and I've tried to contact him since) was he'd talked to Gary and the project was nearly complete. All of the encounters had been built and he didn't require any assistance. The rest was just fluff and editing. That was a year ago. I take Michael at his word.

Michael's the person I feel the worst about. His reputation was muddied just as badly, and he's got a very thin presence online now compared to what it used to be. He hasn't update his own sites, and he's not responding to emails like he once used to. I honestly because this project hurt him too, and he's unnecessarily getting targeted with questions on Gary and the condition of the project. I'm just glad he got paid in full before getting let go by the company.

*Alzrius*, I have to admit that I'm rather envious of your experience. I'd always wanted to meet the man (partially grateful that it never came to be). I would have loved to have experienced that exclusive adventure. You'll have to tell me about it some time. I'd love to hear about it.

*Jenner2057* I also soured over dealing with Kickstarter. They're so much worse than they used to be. I have every ticket and message ever sent during these past five years. At the start, they were sympathetic and felt bad for us. Then at some point everything was copy/paste.
If I was rich enough, I'd fly down to their New York location and demand to talk them, with evidence printed. That said, if I was that rich, I'd be knocking on Gary's door, asking what the hell's up with him, offer him a cash settlement to take over the project until completion, and send everything out to everyone. However, I doubt my numbers will kick in tonight. That'd be pretty sweet though. I think everyone could use $60 million. 

I did some research. Gary hasn't posted a response on any of the forums he once belonged to since 2013. It was only the KS that he posted to until 2014 before going dark.

*Libertad* That's good to know. I hadn't heard of any of that. I also agree that it's not a matter of the hacker making this the reason things went to crap.

I remember back in the day continually sending Gary emails letting him know about Way of the Wicked being pirated and where it was. He'd thank me, and say he'd take care of it. Now all nine books are everywhere, and I don't know that he cares any more or would bother. It's probably an inevitability nowadays. I think all but maybe one of my books are pirated at this point and I haven't even done that much. Hopefully people like them enough to actually buy them too.


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## kevin_video (May 24, 2018)

Reading the copy/paste replies KS is depressing me. They know exactly what's going on and are doing absolutely nothing because it helps their bottom line.


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## jaynay27 (May 24, 2018)

Yep - not a good showing from them. I just updated the KS comments - now been 7 days since my last email to Kickstarter and no response. Might send another follow up email.


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## TheSword (May 24, 2018)

It would be great to try and gather a few more backers. I get that a lot of people probably wrote this off a few years ago. Then we can consider options.


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## kevin_video (May 25, 2018)

I got a letter finally. It's not what I was hoping for, but I'm going to respond to it.


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## jaynay27 (May 25, 2018)

Well at least they put SOME effort in to that response, but it still boils down to 'not our problem'. 

I mean seriously - why cant they attempt to contact him in an official capacity (knowing he has been silent for so long) to force a backer update at a minimum? We are at least owed an explanation.


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## kevin_video (May 25, 2018)

I completely agree that we are. As such, I've asked them to make it their problem and at least perform the minimum that they can do, which is suspend his account. We've been told by a few people that they are capable of doing that. Good. Then do it. Now. And until he 1) apologizes and tells us why this happened, and 2) publicly releases his notes and work, then he can't back any more projects. That's what I've asked to happen. Now, granted, it's not like he can't come up with a dozen more emails and accounts for KS, but unless you're using a different credit card altogether, that's still a blip on the radar. I'm expecting them to perform the less than minimum effort (ie. nothing) and prove to all of us that they only care about their bottom line. I'd like them to do at least the minimum though. I made sure to be a little patronizing in my response. Kind of goad them into at least doing the suspension. We'll see though.


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## Guang (May 28, 2018)

Hey everyone. Nonbacker here, but I did purchase them, and kept the maps on my wall by my desk. Loved the concept and the Upper Azathyr area and was looking forward to seeing what else Gary had come up with, especially the underwater civilizations, Skis'raal and Xan being able to join the party as PCs or even have all-spider or all-mushroom parties, and wanted to see the result of how NPCs could be influenced towards either Good or Evil. Hope this story has a happy ending that also results in the rest of the AP being released.


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## kevin_video (May 28, 2018)

Guang said:


> Hey everyone. Nonbacker here, but I did purchase them, and kept the maps on my wall by my desk. Loved the concept and the Upper Azathyr area and was looking forward to seeing what else Gary had come up with, especially the underwater civilizations, Skis'raal and Xan being able to join the party as PCs or even have all-spider or all-mushroom parties, and wanted to see the result of how NPCs could be influenced towards either Good or Evil. Hope this story has a happy ending that also results in the rest of the AP being released.



Trust me, we all want a happy ending. Unfortunately, no one's going to be holding their breath on this one.


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## mach1.9pants (May 28, 2018)

I backed the previous AP and really loved it, and I was gutted at the time I didn't have the money to back this one! So I'm hoping it works out for you guys, I mean even Razor Coast appeared years after I backed it, so it could possible.


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## vikingirishman (Jun 1, 2018)

Backer here. I popped on for what has become a quarterly check-in to see what the comment section for the KS was up to, as that's the closest thing to an update that I can reasonably expect, and saw the links to here.

Way of the Wicked is still one of the best APs I've run, and I was excited to back Throne of Night. Like, my backer number is 9. And thus far I've paid $63 for a pdf Way of the Wicked Book 7 and not a damn thing more.

To be perfectly honest, I've written this KS off as a loss years ago, but I'm perfectly happy to support any efforts to get McBride to do...literally anything.


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## Mirko Hess (Jun 5, 2018)

I backed this "project" with 150$ plus shipping (Europe) which brought me to 200$ and was dumb enough to throw another 150$ for the WotW books into it, so I financed about 350$ worth of kickstarter backings for McBride.

Happy ending? Uh-hm. Their ain´t no "happy ending" there man. That ship has sailed 2 years ago. Even IF something gets released (and come on, are you kidding me?) 50-75% of backers will still be hosed because 1. there´s no way in hell McBride will release a complete Adventure Path imo, best you can hope for is some half-baked scribbles and notes and tons of art. Then you can try to bake the  together yerself if´n ye got the talent and time for that and 2. many people aren´t even playing no Pathfinder anymore and those that still do will probably jump over to 2nd soon. Meaning even more work should something be released. 

Also I really wish people would stop referencing Razor Coast. Yeah, Razor Coast WAS delayed by a lifetime and yeah, Nick Logue DID stop communicating at some time. BUT he did so because he had SERIOUS health problems at that time and the moment he could he came forth, came clean with his backers, refunded ALL their money AND gave Razor Coast over to the Frogs so it could be finished. Didn´t see Nick running around backing every  project he could find on kickstarter while he was gone and out. In the end Nick proved to be a man of honor and integrity and I doubt McBride can even spell those words.

But I have to say what saddens me is that Michael Clarke is drawn into this and seems to suffer some of the negative effects too. A shame. The guy did his utmost best to keep us up to date (as far as he could) and had the guts to communicate even in the times people were already plenty angry. Gotta give him credit for that! As Kevin_video I´m glad he at least got the money for the art stuff he did, as much as I would want my money back, I´d not want to cheat him out of the cash he got for a job well done.

That said, I don´t think at this stage there´s much to be done. Let´s be honest, kickstarter will not do a fricking thing. They won´t go after his account (or if they will, which I doubt, they certainly will not control or care whether he just opens up another one). McBride will not release anything anytime soon (and imo not ever) unless he is forced to do so by court. So, only thing to do is wait and see whether any US backer is pissed off enough to go after him in that arena while we non-US guys and gals watch helplessly from the sidelines......


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## jaynay27 (Jun 5, 2018)

I stopped getting responses from kickstarter over 2 weeks ago (just sent another email asking for an update).

I can only hope this is because there is legal action now pending, though Gary McBride continues to back project after project (2 more since I last checked only a few days ago) so that seems unlikely.

*Edit* I notice the FMG website is now no longer there either. how long ago did that disappear?


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## kevin_video (Jun 5, 2018)

jaynay27 said:


> *Edit* I notice the FMG website is now no longer there either. how long ago did that disappear?



The website's been down since mid last year. I happened to find out about it and posted it in the comments and on the Paizo forum. You can still access it through the Wayback Machine site. I think around August 11th is when it works properly. Otherwise you're looking at a white page with the occasional spattering of black text and pics.


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## kevin_video (Jun 6, 2018)

It some ways it's a little selfish to say, but I miss designing encounters and items for Gary's adventures.

For "Way of the Wicked", I couldn't wrap my head around the idea that the government and imperial faction would just go "All these prison guards and highly ranked personal are dead, and all of the convicts have escaped. We don't have any bodies to show that the prisoners are dead, but I'm sure the swamp consumed them and did our job for us. Open and shut case. Let's go grab a sandwich." No. You have bounty hunters. You have people who are trained by the High Inquisitor himself to track down and absolutely verify that these people are dead or finish the job that the incompetent prison couldn't. That made more sense to me. Even Gary admitted he enjoyed the idea, and that he added my NPCs to his own home game. I felt a tinge of pride. I continued to do this for each of the books for Way of the Wicked, essentially doing a journal about all of the changes I'd made to the entire campaign. Some encounters I had make more sense, and gave better builds. It helped that I had done Sean K. Reynolds' class on Designing Pathfinder. Others eventually did their own changes and shared them, using Hero Lab to aid them. I still don't have Hero Lab. Everything I do/did was done by hand.

I had planned on doing the same thing with "Throne of Night", and technically did. I converted the mithral shirt from "The Hobbit", added and converted a few 3PP 3.0 monsters that I read about and thought would fit beautifully, and when it originally seemed like Book 3 and 4 were only going to be late, I shared and converted other underground scenarios that could be used to tide things over until they did come out. When it was discovered it was merely a pipe dream, I found an old AD&D module that was posted online, converted everything, and had that be the final module. It made sense since the whole premise was about a dwarven mine that you'd been sent to uncover and reclaim after mysterious circumstances had led to so many dwarves dying there. Given what we know about the supposed "final boss" for ToN, I think I like that ending better than what we were going to get. I'm sure it's explained well enough in Gary's notes, but I don't know that I'll really understand how the aboleth and star spawns ended up being the main encounters for the rest of the game. Just seemed like too much of an M. Night twist at the end. Four books are about fighting drow and then suddenly books 5 and 6 are about taking down aboleth and other aberrations? Not to mention the final book cover shows what can only be described as Atlantis. Again, I'm sure it would have been great, but seemed out of place.

This whole ordeal even managed to find me work with three mini bestiaries getting published. When Gary had finally updated with full summaries and pictures of the four books we'd never see, but not releasing anything on the half-god scenario besides a single picture, I converted a little of that too: a drow marilith monarch, a godling lich, and spider riders. The blog has essentially gone to seed now and is basically just spam. I did manage to go through my actual posts and mark them for ease of traversing.

My group never got past the first book due to adult life. They all played drow nobles, and ended up doing the dwarf part of the AP because they decided to turn on the other drow, and this was just how things worked out. They had a blast. It's just too bad that none of us will ever experience the true ending.

I miss designing and changing things to better the narrative, but with everything that's happened, I've lost my drive. There doesn't seem to be any point any more either. At the start people were thankful and used it all for their own games. Now, Pathfinder is pretty much a thing of the past for a lot of groups as they've moved on to 5e. And with Pathfinder 2.0's playtest coming in August, all the more so. Then you've got all of the 3PP who are redesigning Pathfinder 1.0 in their own image and making a 1.5 edition of the system.
My group only recently moved to Pathfinder from D&D 3.5, and my other group only plays Pathfinder Society and Starfinder Society. This includes the modules and adventure paths. It's all about the chronicle sheets for them. I'm the new Venture Lieutenant here so I run most of the games. Some day we hope to bring in 5e Adventurer's League, but we have to learn 5e first.

Maybe some day I'll find my groove again and make time. I feel like I still have an adventure path in me, or at least a trilogy of an adventure. Unfortunately, it's Pathfinder 1.0 based, and with my hands being what they are now I can't design maps like other people can.

I still want "Throne of Night" completed. I think we could all use that piece of mind so we can finally move on from this.


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## Suckerpuncher (Jun 19, 2018)

It should be obvious by now that Gary is a con man and will very likely never finish Throne of Night.

It also should be obvious that kickstarter.com will do nothing against Gary's fraud not even close his account. They didn't close accounts of other fraud projects in the past, too.

So whining and sending messages won't help. It's a waste of time!

The only thing most people here can do is to never spend cash on anything that has the names Gary McBride and Fire Mountain Games on it and destroy his reputation.

US-based backer can sue him, there was already one Kickstarter fraud case in court and the scammer had to pay back the money at the end. Of course he couldn't but nonetheless, he got a distress warrant which means even if he gains money in the future he has to use it to pay his debts back. The warrant will stand for many years. I would like something similiar for our friend McFraud too.


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## kevin_video (Jun 19, 2018)

Seems like the US backers aren't going after him now. They're too broke to take him to court. It's even worse that you essentially have to take him to a specific court in New York. Everyone's so burned out from this KS that they've more or less written it off or forgotten about it. That may very well have been part of the plan as well.


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## kevin_video (Jun 19, 2018)

Saw today that every post on Paizo that called Gary out for being a con artist and fraud, and to not buy his products, was removed by staff. Not even the least bit surprised.


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## jaynay27 (Jun 20, 2018)

That's crazy. Paizo seems quite selective about who they police at times.


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## Felkor (Jun 20, 2018)

Just saw the thread. I am a backer of the Throne of Night as well at the $54 level. Really wish that something positive could be resolved from this....


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## kevin_video (Jun 21, 2018)

Felkor said:


> Just saw the thread. I am a backer of the Throne of Night as well at the $54 level. Really wish that something positive could be resolved from this....



I couldn't agree more. Even if Gary sold it to another company. We've seen that happen already with Gary, but he was contracted by another publisher when that happened. Him being on his own for this one, I doubt it'll happen. Everyone's against us, and that's beyond frustrating.


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## sir_ollibolli (Jun 25, 2018)

I am a backer as well. Went all in in print with shipping for 200 US$ (plus Book 7 of Way of the Wicked)


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## kevin_video (Jun 26, 2018)

sir_ollibolli said:


> I am a backer as well. Went all in in print with shipping for 200 US$ (plus Book 7 of Way of the Wicked)



Can't even imagine how much that must have been with conversion to your own currency. I know myself it'd have been another $66.

It's moments like this that I honestly wish someone would cut us a break and we'd finally be justly rewarded.


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## Mistwell (Jun 26, 2018)

Does anyone even know what state Gary is in these days?


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## kevin_video (Jun 26, 2018)

Mistwell said:


> Does anyone even know what state Gary is in these days?



Nope. It's assumed he still lives in the exact same location as he has these past seven years.


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## kevin_video (Jun 27, 2018)

Just came from Kickstarter and four of the 1111 comments were removed. Don't know which ones were taken down or who did it, but it's something I felt everyone should be made aware of.


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## Ancalagon (Jun 27, 2018)

kevin_video said:


> Saw today that every post on Paizo that called Gary out for being a con artist and fraud, and to not buy his products, was removed by staff. Not even the least bit surprised.



... does he work for Paizo? If not, why did this happen?


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## Scott Christian (Jun 27, 2018)

Not a backer, but what a shame.  Seemed like promising material; however, the neglect of Kickstarter seems to be the real problem here.  He should be banned, plain and simple.  It shouldn't be up to Reddit to create a list of suspicious Kickstarter people/projects.  They should have it clearly stated.  All that being said, Gary needs to step up, and not be forced to take accountability for his actions.


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## kevin_video (Jun 27, 2018)

Ancalagon said:


> ... does he work for Paizo? If not, why did this happen?



Paizo has a problem with defamation regardless of whether or not the person is actually guilty or not. They don't want any kind of political issues, whether actual politics or gaming politics, on the forums. It might make them look bad. Companies like looking completely neutral on subjects. Taking sides can cost them money.

 [MENTION=6901101]Scott Christian[/MENTION] --He really should step up, and he should be banned, but Kickstarter likes money too much, and Gary gives it to them regularly. I can only imagine how much he's dropped on that site over the past seven years.


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## Scott Christian (Jun 28, 2018)

kevin_video said:


> Paizo has a problem with defamation regardless of whether or not the person is actually guilty or not. They don't want any kind of political issues, whether actual politics or gaming politics, on the forums. It might make them look bad. Companies like looking completely neutral on subjects. Taking sides can cost them money.
> 
> [MENTION=6901101]Scott Christian[/MENTION] --He really should step up, and he should be banned, but Kickstarter likes money too much, and Gary gives it to them regularly. I can only imagine how much he's dropped on that site over the past seven years.




Yes, and you're right, if he's bringing in money, they'll keep him around.  Sad though.  Such a great site for so many young and old startups; just another good intentioned idea being corrupted.


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## kevin_video (Jun 28, 2018)

No argument here on that one.

Hey, everyone. Out of curiosity, who's both a backer and an American? I was notified yesterday that we might actually have a lawyer willing to back us up on this one, who's in the New York area. It's not 100% for sure though, as so far it's just a consultation, but we'd need someone to be available for the lawyer to contact afterwards to go full throttle into the fight.


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## Erichmc (Jun 30, 2018)

I’m a US backer in Oregon (same state as Gary...), and I’m happy to help with a lawsuit for whatever good that might do. I have no clue about how to go about the lawsuit, but I could be a contact or witness/aggrieved party.


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## kevin_video (Jul 1, 2018)

Erichmc said:


> I’m a US backer in Oregon (same state as Gary...), and I’m happy to help with a lawsuit for whatever good that might do. I have no clue about how to go about the lawsuit, but I could be a contact or witness/aggrieved party.



Thankfully you don't have to know how to go about the lawsuit. Another person has already made contact with a lawyer. We're just waiting to hear back on what our options are. We need a US backer to be the go-to for communications, and being an aggrieved party is going to be part of a major asset. Unfortunately, I'm not the person that made contact with the lawyer so my info's spotty at best. However, I can forward the info to the person that we do have someone willing to help. I'll keep you apprised of what I learn. With it being July 4th soon, there might be a delay before we can go ahead with things. But, we've waited this long, right?

 [MENTION=6901101]Scott Christian[/MENTION] -- Sadly you're not wrong. I want to write adventures and have them published. The problem now is that people don't overly care about that any more. And with KS being what it is, as well as what Gary did to us, everyone has the bitter taste left in their mouth and hesitant. People like me are in an extremely bad position. On one hand, you've got the work and the notoriety, but publishers aren't willing to take a chance on written adventures because they don't sell well. On the other, you've got a site like Kickstarter that can make everyone's dream come true, but there's no real repercussions if you take everyone's money and run. There's no publisher to keep you honest. I've brought it up before, and even had a poll on adventures paths/modules that I'd love to do up, and am very happy that so many people decided to vote on the specific theme. Unfortunately, they all said the same thing in the comments--it can't be Pathfinder, it has to be published by a legitimate publishing company with a great reputation, and I'd need to be 1/3 complete before I even started it. While I can absolutely cover the last two, I only know Pathfinder. Most people go to 5e for their games now, and the publishers I work with at the moment only do Pathfinder, Starfinder, Traveler, Dungeon Crawl Classics, Fate, and 13th Age. Even my own friends are doing Savage Worlds, Star Wars RPG, HARN, Shadow Run,and 5e.


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## kevin_video (Jul 1, 2018)

Just noticed that unlike Paizo, SuckerPuncher's post about Gary being a con man wasn't removed from EN World's Throne of Night thread.


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## Henry (Jul 1, 2018)

kevin_video said:


> Just noticed that unlike Paizo, SuckerPuncher's post about Gary being a con man wasn't removed from EN World's Throne of Night thread.




Also note it can be a case of how a post is worded, too; I never saw the original, but if it had anything extremely defamatory or libelous in it, Paizo might have removed it for other reasons than just saying, “he defrauded a bunch of people on Kickstarter.”

I have no connection either to Paizo, FMG, or Kickstarter (or ENWorld any more for that matter) — just giving Paizo the benefit of the doubt due to past experience.


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## kevin_video (Jul 1, 2018)

Henry said:


> Also note it can be a case of how a post is worded, too; I never saw the original, but if it had anything extremely defamatory or libelous in it, Paizo might have removed it for other reasons than just saying, “he defrauded a bunch of people on Kickstarter.”
> 
> I have no connection either to Paizo, FMG, or Kickstarter (or ENWorld any more for that matter) — just giving Paizo the benefit of the doubt due to past experience.



What I'm noting is this is your first time responding in the thread and this specific post is the one you quote and reply to, as well as noting that you have no connection to the companies. Note that at the top of this page (5) I already mentioned what you said. That Paizo has issues with defamation. And yes, it was more than just saying that.

Here's the link to the exact quote. http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?328688-Fire-Mountain-Games-Throne-of-Night/page2&p=7447104&viewfull=1#post7447104 It was copied and pasted to every FMG product page. I'll agree with another person that it was probably also seen as spam. You copy/paste the same to paragraphs eight times and someone's probably going to do something about it, defamation or not.


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## Mirko Hess (Jul 3, 2018)

kevin_video said:


> I've brought it up before, and even had a poll on adventures paths/modules that I'd love to do up, and am very happy that so many people decided to vote on the specific theme. Unfortunately, they all said the same thing in the comments--it can't be Pathfinder,




Really? Why the heck not? I mean.....I´m not doing Pathfinder myself these days due to the system (especially in Society) being uber-crunchy now (kinda like 3.5 was before Wizards kicked it to oblivion). But I still use Pathfinder modules and APs. I mean....converting them to 5E isn´t really THAT complicated even with the different power levels (magic) and all. Also if Pathfinder 2nd plays out (I got my doubts really with what little bits I´ve been seeing till now but who knows. August will tell) people might even come back in....

It´s a shame you won´t advance with yer AP really. 

As for kickstarter: well there are still modules being pushed there and I for one even do back one from time to time. Though admittedly I now refrain from backing for printed matter and just go with the pdfs for 10 or 15 bucks. McBride really soured my on putting a big amount of money into a kickstarter project (unless there´s a BIG producer behind it who I know will come through (been backing TORG Eternity for example or Symbaroum and Shadows of Esteren).


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## Ovinomancer (Jul 3, 2018)

kevin_video said:


> What I'm noting is this is your first time responding in the thread and this specific post is the one you quote and reply to, as well as noting that you have no connection to the companies. Note that at the top of this page (5) I already mentioned what you said. That Paizo has issues with defamation. And yes, it was more than just saying that.
> 
> Here's the link to the exact quote. http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?328688-Fire-Mountain-Games-Throne-of-Night/page2&p=7447104&viewfull=1#post7447104 It was copied and pasted to every FMG product page. I'll agree with another person that it was probably also seen as spam. You copy/paste the same to paragraphs eight times and someone's probably going to do something about it, defamation or not.




No, Paizo doesn't have a defamation issue.  US law says that a platform provider is not liable for what a commentor posts on their platform.  It's not legal avoidance driving Paizo's editing, but more likely other posters reporting rule violations which then get modded.


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## kevin_video (Jul 3, 2018)

@_*Mirko*_ -- If I could find a publisher willing to take a chance on something that's not 5e and give me the shot, I'd do it. Also if enough people said they'd do it. The one voted on, and that I most pushing for was a technology vs. nature themed AP. But it wasn't a "choose one side" type like Throne of Night. I'm not good enough for something that in-depth or expansive.

I've definitely got my doubts on PF 2.0 as well. I've been running a whole bunch of 1.0 PFS scenarios for our local lodge, and I know I'm pretty much walking away without looking back once 2.0 actually kicks in.

If it wasn't for the fact that exchange rate and shipping were such huge factors, not to mention his reputation for mistakes on his work so there's always noticeable errata and spelling errors, I would have been out a lot more money due to buying physical copies too.

 @_*Ovinomancer*_ -- Didn't realize the US had such a law. Don't know if it's in Canada or not, but if it does, no one does anything about it.


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## JacktheRabbit (Jul 4, 2018)

Jenner2057 said:


> Backer here as well. I'm still around keeping an eye on this project but I can say this whole experience turned me off from ever backing another Kickstarter. The lack of any sort of accountability from the creator - or involvement/enforcement from Kickstarter themselves - is enough to keep me from doing this again.



There is no way  Kickstarter could manage and demand performance from every person who uses their service. Their company would have to be much larger and would have to require a percentage of funds collected to cover it's operations that everyone would complain was too high. 

The guy committed fraud. That is anoegal issue and that is handled by courts not by private companies.


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## kevin_video (Jul 4, 2018)

JacktheRabbit said:


> There is no way  Kickstarter could manage and demand performance from every person who uses their service. Their company would have to be much larger and would have to require a percentage of funds collected to cover it's operations that everyone would complain was too high.
> 
> The guy committed fraud. That is anoegal issue and that is handled by courts not by private companies.



I don't disagree with the statement of Gary or the courts involvement, but this goes beyond that. Kickstarter's policy says that they will do their part to keep the creator accountable. That if there's issues where you can't contact them or the creator is going a-wall, they will aid you by contacting the creator themselves to try get them to fulfill their side of the project or they can take away certain rights or even close the account until the creator does anything that even looks like working on the project. Paraphrased, but still. Kickstarter has been told numerous times about Gary, to the point they asked what they would like us to do. Those of us who've contacted them have asked that they enforce their policy to close the account or make it so that he at least can't any more projects until Gary at least communicates to us why this project isn't done after five years. Kickstarter won't. Our only guess is it's because Gary dumps too much money on the site and supports too many projects for them to financially stop him.


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## Banesfinger (Aug 13, 2018)

Followed the links from the Kickstarter messages.
I'm an "overlord" backer (US $250).  I agree with everyone's comments regarding Gary.  However, I would like to praise Michael Clarke, as he did deliver the custom piece of art awarded at that backer level, which takes a little bit of the 'sting' out of my $$$ loss.


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## kevin_video (Aug 13, 2018)

Thank you for sharing. I'm glad at least half of the the former team can hold up their end of a deal. Not that I doubted Michael. He's come through numerous times already.


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## Banesfinger (Aug 13, 2018)

Here is his beautiful work.


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## kevin_video (Aug 14, 2018)

Thank you very, very much for sharing. My guess is she was going to be a knife master rogue. Not too certain on the mask though. Perhaps a vigilante.


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## kevin_video (Aug 29, 2018)

Posted this on the KS comments, and wanted to post it here too (cleaned up a bit), just in case.

So, some personal news. Some people know I’ve been really sick for a number of years, as well as partially disabled. This was even something I shared with Gary via email when he was still active. Saw a specialist, and while I’m going to try beat the numbers, I might only have 1-2 years left. This is not a joke or ploy. I do plan on fighting for as long as possible, however.

If something goes terribly awry, I want people to keep going after Gary until he fulfills his end of the bargain. My hope is that I'll at least see Book 3, if not its notes.


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## Lobaron Lobaron (Sep 5, 2018)

Not a backer. But I love the concept of the books and saddened by the fact that the AP won't be finished. 

I'm wondering about the feasibility of people collaborating on creating an unofficial middle and end to the AP.

It may not take the sting out of the betrayal, but it would at least make a sad ending a little less sad.


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## kevin_video (Sep 5, 2018)

Technically we're doing that on the Paizo forum. I found an adequate 2e adventure module of an abandoned dwarf city and mine, and you have to discover why and fight the denizens along the way. I then did up some stats, and and released it all online. Other people have done their own thing completely, mostly as tradesman, another making the reason the dwarves left due to a radiation mine. Then there are those who've adapted it to 5e and don't acknowledge the Pathfinder relevance any more, and I don't blame them. Finally, you've got the drow AP that was released by Adventure-A-Week, and a couple even converted the 3.0 City of the Spider Queen module.


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## Lobaron Lobaron (Sep 5, 2018)

If you don't mind me asking, what is the module you used? I'll look in the mean time.


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## kevin_video (Sep 5, 2018)

“The Long Mine of Klangdensturm” 2e .


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## Lobaron Lobaron (Sep 5, 2018)

Thanks! I think I probably found your tumblr where you converted it? It's been hard finding what other people have done via Google.

I'm hoping to run WotW, but my group is fickle about breaking conventional game tropes.


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## kevin_video (Sep 5, 2018)

Lobaron Lobaron said:


> Thanks! I think I probably found your tumblr where you converted it? It's been hard finding what other people have done via Google.
> 
> I'm hoping to run WotW, but my group is fickle about breaking conventional game tropes.



It likely is. It should have the link for the module on there somewhere. It's an online written module with maps. As for what everyone else has done, head to the Paizo thread and work backwards.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2os3c&page=last?Fire-Mountain-Games-Throne-of-Night

I can understand their hesitation. It's not easy to get players to play evil characters and them not end up jerks or hating one another personally IRL. I know. I've tried running the game three times, and all were complete failures. Got a new player wanting to me to try a fourth time, but I don't think I have the patience.


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## Lobaron Lobaron (Sep 5, 2018)

I had been thinking about the best way to force cooperation.

1st I was going have everyone be LE

2nd I was going to have a brief talk about the Lawful side still allowing for loyalties. (they can't screw everyone else, but not each other.)

3rd I was going to steal a page from VTM larps and use cooperative storytelling. If a player wants to have a conflict/betrayal of another then the both have to discuss what would happen and agree on what would happen.

4th I'm going to make the contract they sign magical, binding, and deadly. There is a third copy of the contract. On signing it, red runes start to glow in the page, it starts to burn up, and the runic F on their forearm smokes and burns as well. They are now bound into the contract on pain of death. Thorn will warn them of this.


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## kevin_video (Sep 5, 2018)

With the 4th, you could go that route. There's actual magical means that I discussed on the forum for Book 1, and even on my blog, regarding what changes would and should be necessary. There's an actual magical item that binds those that write on it.


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## Lobaron Lobaron (Sep 5, 2018)

Ha, great minds think alike. As soon as I read about the contract, I thought... Why isn't this magically binding. Hell there's a devil there that can officiate it in the eyes of Asmodeus.

As for Throne of Night... I'm thinking of my own adventure. The reason they would need to build a kingdom. Essentially, there are a few armies present in the ancient Dwarven city. The armies are of zombie dwarves, shadows and something nastier.

 The black flames were caused when the Dwarven city accidentally dug into an opening to the plane of negative energy itself. The portal is still there, empowering the undead and killing the living.

If the party wants to retake the city, they will need a magical artifact to enter the plane of negative energy and close the portal. They will also need an army to kill all the undead. 

I may fill it out with the portions of various Underdark books. Like they have to get the location of the artifact from an old wizard, that lead into "Night Below" or some such.


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## kevin_video (Sep 11, 2018)

Apologies for not getting back sooner. My health has been getting worse.  Spent these past three days off from work,  bedridden.

Regarding the magic contract, Gary might  not have been able to use the published version. Being a freelance  writer I've been told a few times by publishers that they prefer to use  the main core books (ie. just what's on the PRD) because that guarantees  them no copyright issues. About 99% of everything Paizo releases is  open license, but anything not in the PRD you have to copy/paste into  the book. This eats word count and pages. This came from a splat book. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/pact-parchment

I  found another piece of art from Michael Clarke. It shows a drow with  the lich's phylactery and said lich engulfed in the same black flames as  we've seen in previous pictures. I've gone looking for it, and I can't  help but wonder if the phylactery has something to do with it, or if one  of the NPCs had the darkfire adept prestige class. At 4th level, your  spells because darkfire spells, and anyone killed by them disintegrate.  You have to be non-good. However, that's from Paths of Prestige, and  that's a splat book too. I don't know if he'd have willingly pasted that  into the book.

The fact that you put "Night Below"  in quotations makes me joyful. That's really old school. If you don't  already have it, a 3.0 conversion is available for that 3-part module.  It wouldn't take much to convert it one step further to Pathfinder, but  that would depend on what system you're using. I've seen a few people  mention going with 5e, and 2e is not hard to convert to 5e.


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## Lobaron Lobaron (Sep 12, 2018)

Ha, I've been doing some research on the Underdark. I've been fascinated by it since I read the Homeland Trilogy was young. I'll have to look for the 3.0 version of Night Below.

Currently, I've decided Throne of Night is going to take more time, so I've decided to run Way of the Wicked. I will run Throne of Night after that and a break from running.


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## kevin_video (Sep 12, 2018)

Lobaron Lobaron said:


> Ha, I've been doing some research on the Underdark. I've been fascinated by it since I read the Homeland Trilogy was young. I'll have to look for the 3.0 version of Night Below.



The file for all three parts should still be available here. http://www.enworld.org/forum/rpgdownloads.php?do=download&downloadid=127


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## Lobaron Lobaron (Sep 12, 2018)

Thanks!


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## kevin_video (Sep 13, 2018)

Lobaron Lobaron said:


> Thanks!



Quite welcome. Hope it's of great benefit to you.


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## kevin_video (Sep 16, 2018)

It's heartbreaking to finally get a Paizo newsletter for the first time in literal months (their server was doing terribly for so long) and see Book 2 and Book 7 of Way of the Wicked be in the Top 10, and know that Throne of Night could have been part of that too. But nope. We don't get to experience that, and neither does Gary.

Makes me wish I'd won the lottery this weekend so one way or another this could finally be behind us.


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## kevin_video (Sep 23, 2018)

So, something was discovered, and people are posting it in the comments. There's a term and regulation of rights for us backers that we can push for. Just copy and paste the lower into the comment section of Throne of Night. It's doubtful for that KS is going to care in even the slightest, but at least we're making out stand.

-------------------------------------------

I invoke my rights under Kickstarter's Terms of Use:

https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/oct2012

"Project  Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful  fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or  cannot fulfill."

I demand a full refund for my pledge amount


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## TheSword (Oct 19, 2018)

I’ve got two questions for the community really?

Is there any mileage in trying to reach out to Gary McBride. Clearly he ignores emails from us or Kickstarter. Does anyone else know him personally or is able to get a contact through to him in person. Does he still live in Oregon? He was employed in the games industry for decades so there must be contacts there.

Secondly are we any closer to a legal challenge? This is actually something I would be willing to contribute to. It seems pretty outrageous that Kickstarter tells us legal recourse is our only option but it isn’t available to international backers.

Rob


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## maruahm (Oct 21, 2018)

Is there precedent for Kickstarter to go after owners of unfulfilled projects?


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## LordEntrails (Oct 22, 2018)

If you paid with a credit card (always good advice), all you had to do was contact them and dispute the charge. Since you never received the goods or services you paid for, they would refund your money and take it way from Gary or Kickstarter, whoever the payment actually went to. If it went to KS and they in turn paid Gary, then KS would be theones to have to go after Gary, not you.

I've never had to do it on a KS, but I've done it with other businesses and it's easy.


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## Erichmc (Oct 23, 2018)

Even after 6 years?


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## LordEntrails (Oct 23, 2018)

Erichmc said:


> Even after 6 years?



I don't know, you'll have to look at your legal contract with your credit card company. Or you know, call them and ask 

And of course, next time don't wait six years. I mean at what point did you give up on getting the product? 6 months? Given them a call then.


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## kevin_video (Oct 23, 2018)

LordEntrails said:


> I don't know, you'll have to look at your legal contract with your credit card company. Or you know, call them and ask
> 
> And of course, next time don't wait six years. I mean at what point did you give up on getting the product? 6 months? Given them a call then.



The problem is that 'by contract', they're allowed to be given five years.


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## Lwaxy (Nov 17, 2018)

kevin_video said:


> Finally, you've got the drow AP that was released by Adventure-A-Week




Great tip, I'll just string them together, should work well.


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## Alzrius (Nov 17, 2018)

kevin_video said:


> *Alzrius*, I have to admit that I'm rather envious of your experience. I'd always wanted to meet the man (partially grateful that it never came to be). I would have loved to have experienced that exclusive adventure. You'll have to tell me about it some time. I'd love to hear about it.




I can't believe it's taken me six months to get back to you about this. Sorry, Kevin! 

"First Voyage of the Hellbrandr" is a con-exclusive adventure that Gary wrote. The title page notes that only ten copies were printed, and the introduction echoes this, with Gary writing that while he might release it as a PDF or edit it into a larger adventure, it won't be printed except for these ten copies. In hindsight, that's more true than I suspect even he knew.

The adventure isn't bound, but rather is three-hold punched and presented in a binder, with a cover page inserted under the front plastic and a map (actually several maps on a single page) inside the back cover's plastic. The adventure itself is sixteen pages long, not including a page for notes and another page that reprints the back cover's map. The pages themselves aren't your usual printer fare, being a parchment-like cream color, and are slightly thicker than normal paper.

The adventure itself is written for four to six characters of 4th to 6th level. It's set in a Norse environment (local names are given, but I don't believe there's anything connecting it to either Way of the Wicked or Throne of Night), where the PCs are taking the longship _Hellbrandr_ out on its maiden voyage, only to discover that they've fallen under the death-oath of the boat's maker: to avenge the death of his wife. Compelled to find "Jarl" Erlingr (who's essentially a bandit king) and slay him for his crimes, the PCs find that Erlingr is unable to be killed due to a pact he's struck with a witch, who is actually turning the Jarl into a powerful undead creature that she plans on using to build her own kingdom! The PCs need to track her down and put an end to her machinations in order to save the region, slay the Jarl, and fulfill the shipwright's oath.

I've attached a pair of pictures below:

(On a semi-related note, I found some pictures in the binder's pockets from that Gen Con game of Throne of Night we played: one is my pregen character from that game, a dwarf ranger 1 (no name given), another is a color print of what looks like a female svirfneblin rogue (autographed by Gary), and a color print map of Fasturvalt.)


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## kevin_video (Nov 17, 2018)

Those are awesome pics. Thanks for sharing. No worries on the late response.

I kind of wish this wasn't a con-exclusive. Maybe when he's getting low on funds he'll send this as a one-shot for people to purchase. I know I'd want a copy. I'm interested in the story and stats. And I love that Michael's art style is something he can change. His Way of the Wicked and Throne of Night art look very similar so you can immediately tell it's him. This cover, however, you can't really pick out that it's him. I actually thought it was someone else for a second before I saw him credited.


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## gamemodapk (Nov 19, 2018)

Supporter here too. I'm still around watching out for this task yet I can state this entire experience diverted me off from consistently backing another Kickstarter. The absence of any kind of (Subway Surfers For IOS)responsibility from the maker - or contribution/authorization from Kickstarter themselves - is sufficient to shield me from doing this once more.


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## kevin_video (Nov 19, 2018)

gamemodapk said:


> Supporter here too. I'm still around watching out for this task yet I can state this entire experience diverted me off from consistently backing another Kickstarter. The absence of any kind of (Subway Surfers For IOS)responsibility from the maker - or contribution/authorization from Kickstarter themselves - is sufficient to shield me from doing this once more.



Unfortunately, I have to say that I'm also like this. I used to dump money on KS projects like they were going out of style. Now I can barely get myself to support ones that are 90% guaranteed to be backed and sent out (so much dice coming my way now). Even ones that good friends are doing, that I want to support, I find myself doing the lower tiers and not much else. It's crazy how this one project has soured me on so many things even beyond KS.


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## Lwaxy (Nov 28, 2018)

For me it leads to not wanting to start a crowdfunding thing husband and me were planning a while ago. I don't trust this system anymore. Although we do back projects every now and then but rather in the low levels, too.


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## TheSword (Mar 8, 2021)

Sorry to necro this. Has any more been heard of from Mr McBride? So many years, $40,000 and nothing to show for it, bar PDFs of two chapters.  Not even the art and maps, that we know was finished. Disappointing!

Is Gary McBride involved in any projects that anyone is aware of?


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## kevin_video (Mar 8, 2021)

TheSword said:


> Sorry to necro this. Has any more been heard of from Mr McBride? So many years, $40,000 and nothing to show for it, bar PDFs of two chapters.  Not even the art and maps, that we know was finished. Disappointing!
> 
> Is Gary McBride involved in any projects that anyone is aware of?



To date, Gary has supported 661 projects (we don't know to what degree), but nothing has come of the projects. We know the artist was fully paid, which we learned was a solid chunk of the money. It's suggested that all the art cost the 40k, but I don't think so. I haven't seen all the art, but I did the math, and know how much detailed, coloured commissions can get to be. However, Kickstarter takes a percentage, so Gary didn't have $40k to start with. It's also been learned that Fire Mountain Games dissolved payments to its web host back in 2014. The site was on life support until it disappeared.

The best resource I can you is my accumulated links that I put on a Google document, including a link to the "world map", and to my Tumblr where I did a series of posts with art I found and builds I theorized. I also posted all the art I found to my Pinterest page (also linked in the resource page).
Resource Link Page

Everyone has given up on the AP, including myself, and as such, last May it was given a (semi-official) obituary. (Don't forget to leave a comment there.)

As for anyone having heard from him, that's a big no. I've had people reach out to me in hopes that I was in contact with him, but that's not the case. Even old friends of his are no longer able to get a hold of him in any way, shape, or form, and these are people saying they've known each other for decades. Apparently he moved, and just didn't keep in touch.

He's not involved with any projects that we're aware of. At least not using his real name. If he is, it's likely it's 5e based as he's been supporting a lot of 5e projects.

As for Throne of Night, a game company was looking to buy the rights to the AP and everything under Fire Mountain Games, complete it, and release everything promised. That was last year. I don't know what came of it.

I'm still linked to this thread and my blog via email, and I check the Paizo forum from time to time, as well as the KS page. I'm always around to answer any questions I can, and inform where possible.


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