# Buffy to be canceled!



## Dragongirl (Oct 28, 2002)

That got your attention.  That is my prediction anyway.  It is down 27% over last year and Ms. Gellors contract is up.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Oct 28, 2002)

It would be bad news, if the series was cancelled.
  Buffy the Vampire Slayer has been getting better and better, and I was just beginning to seriously enjoy it.


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## Corinth (Oct 28, 2002)

It's been seven seasons now?  Time to end the show, it is.  All genre shows should be like B5 or MSG: tell one story in full, and then get the hell off the air.  Five seasons is more than enough time for any show to get the job done, and often it can be done in 50 episodes or less.


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## Horacio (Oct 28, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *That got your attention.  That is my prediction anyway.  It is down 27% over last year and Ms. Gellors contract is up. *




You're a really BAD girl, dragonperson...
You really SCARED me...


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## Hand of Evil (Oct 28, 2002)

They have been talking about it for some time now, interest in the show from cast and fans is waning.  They had a good run, seven years, at least they can end it on their terms.  

Maybe we will see a few of the characters make a showing on Angel!  There is also the chance of a spin off, Dawn the Slayer.


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## Shadeus (Oct 28, 2002)

I heard rumor about Faith having a series as well.  I actually attribute the low ratings to:

1. it is a long-running series
2. last season

I think last season was a bit dark for some people.  People tuned in initially because it was a new network and Buffy died, so you had to find out how she was going to be brought back.  But I think the whole reality story arc turned off...well 27% of the show's audience.


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## Crothian (Oct 28, 2002)

Only two things have a chance to save the series.  The first is improving ratings, and the second is somone offering Sarah too much money to leave.  However, the writing has been on the wall since the end of the second season.  Sarah tried to leave then, but could not get out of her contract.  

Because iof that there has been many rumors of spin offs, but until they announce some thing it looks as if that might not even happen.


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## Chun-tzu (Oct 28, 2002)

Didn't Joss Whedon also plan to spend more time on other projects and less on Buffy? I'm sure whether or not he stays will have a big impact on whether we'll see another season or not. And that decision may depend on how well some of those projects are going, i.e. Firefly.

Personally, I'm much more interested in Faith taking over than Dawn. And I hope the Giles/Ripper series manages to get done at some point.

Some have speculated on the idea of Buffy graduating to the movies, a la Star Trek. Sarah said in one interview that she didn't think it would work, since the original movie did poorly. But that was a very different animal than a new movie helmed by Joss would be. I'd watch it.


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## Umbran (Oct 28, 2002)

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> * But that was a very different animal than a new movie helmed by Joss would be. I'd watch it. *




Not as different as you might think.  The original movie was written by Joss.  The movie had Kaz and Fran Kuzui on the production team, and those two now hae Executive Producer credits for the series...


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## Crothian (Oct 28, 2002)

The orginal movie while it didn't do well in theatres has a rather good cult following.  Many people watch it, like it, and own it.  However, doing a movie with the current cast members won't be a hit.  I think they missed their window.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Oct 29, 2002)

*As for the slipping ratings...*

...the move to UPN didn't do them any favors, either.  There are a LOT of markets (mine for one) that simply don't have a UPN.  Yep, no Buffy & no Enterprise in a COLLEGE TOWN.  There's an Underground Railroad of taped Buffy episodes here.


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## Storminator (Oct 29, 2002)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Not as different as you might think.  The original movie was written by Joss.  The movie had Kaz and Fran Kuzui on the production team, and those two now hae Executive Producer credits for the series... *




From what I heard Joss was extremely unhappy with the slant the director put on the film. No doubt the film didn't take itself seriously, and we all know the show does. 

I'm usually disappointed in flims from shows. The film always comes off as just a double episode with too much character development (since the movie has to condense seasons worth of character development into a half hour). Notable exceptions exist.

PS


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## Gallowglass (Oct 29, 2002)

Crothian said:
			
		

> *Only two things have a chance to save the series.  The first is improving ratings, and the second is somone offering Sarah too much money to leave.  However, the writing has been on the wall since the end of the second season.  Sarah tried to leave then, but could not get out of her contract.
> 
> Because iof that there has been many rumors of spin offs, but until they announce some thing it looks as if that might not even happen. *




I'm surprised that SMG wanted to leave then; the show was for me really hitting its stride then, although I don't like the end of season two at all. Season three for my money was the best written, four the worst (with the honourable exceptions of Hush and Restless). But the end of season five still makes me think that an early comment I remember being attributed to Joss Wheedon, to the effect that he had five seasons worth of ideas and then wanted to end Buffy, seems very plausible.

And much as I like Faith, I think we have had enough Vampire Slayer conundrums, it's time to move away from simple clones ofthe original formula. Now Spike acting as Dawns "Guardian Angel" whilst they go on the run to escape some relentless cosmic evil intent on exploiting the Key, sort of the Fugitive meets Kolchak, I could see working well...


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## Horacio (Oct 29, 2002)

Gallowglass said:
			
		

> *And much as I like Faith, I think we have had enough Vampire Slayer conundrums, it's time to move away from simple clones ofthe original formula. Now Spike acting as Dawns "Guardian Angel" whilst they go on the run to escape some relentless cosmic evil intent on exploiting the Key, sort of the Fugitive meets Kolchak, I could see working well... *




That's really a nice idea... I really like it...


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## Ashtal (Oct 29, 2002)

Cancelled ... not so much.  That implies that the network is axing it, and they very much want it to continue.

But Joss Whedon has talked about ending the series, and the latest rumor is that this will be the last season.  But there is talk of spin offs and such, and I can't imagine that Joss won't have something on TV somewhere.  Afterall, Angel is still doing well, and I have high hopes that Firefly will get picked up for a full season.  

Plus the Buffy Animated Series ... scheduled for Fall 2003, IIRC.


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## Ranger REG (Oct 30, 2002)

Personally, you *cancel* a TV series when it runs only five seasons or less. You *end* a TV series after having gone six seasons or more.

AFAIC, _Buffy_ have a pretty good TV series run, but it has to end because unlike _90210_ we're not going to see Buffy get married or in her 30's. It's best to end the project and start up a new _Vampire Slayer_ franchise series.


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## Chun-tzu (Oct 31, 2002)

Well, this bites.

http://www.tvguide.com/newsgossip/inthenews/021030.asp#D

TOUGH CEL: More bad news for fans of Buffy the Vampire Slayer: That much-talked about animated spinoff series is off the drawing board. "We just couldn't find a home for it — which will baffle me to the grave," Buffy sire, Joss Whedon, sighs to TV Guide Online.

So, this may be the last season for Buffy, the cartoon has been scrapped, the Ripper spinoff is nowhere, and Firefly is doing poorly in ratings.  By next year, Angel may be the only one left to save the world!


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## Umbran (Oct 31, 2002)

Yes, well, maybe _Buffy_ will end this season, maybe it won't.  From Gellar's point of view, negotiations have not begun, and no decisions have been made.  It's quite possible that she has a sense of which side her bread is buttered, hmm?

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2002-10/30/11.00.tv


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## Ranger REG (Nov 1, 2002)

Whether it ends this season or next, one thing is certain. Anyanka (portrayed by Emma Caulfield) will bow out this season.

On a related note, negotiation soured between Fox Production and Amber Benson to make a return appearance. Last season, she portrayed Willow's late girlfriend Tara. Too bad.    I missed the inappropriate lesbian fantasy element that only caters to male audience rather than promoting sexual tolerance and non-discrimination (no matter how much GLAAD is trying to put out this message).


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## Chun-tzu (Nov 5, 2002)

More interesting "what if" cancellation rumors:

Buffy (TV): Could some of the "Buffy" stars be making their way over to "Angel" if things end this season? The chance is "very possible" according to Joss Whedon when he spoke to TV Guide recently: "I think it would be cool. It's sort of exciting, because you have this universe and all these people and all of their juxtapositions. It's interesting - to me anyway. But until I know what's happening with Buffy - and Angel - I don't know who will go where". 

http://www.darkhorizons.com/news/021104.htm


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## Henry (Nov 5, 2002)

If Buffy ended this season, I wouldn't be upset. The series has told a remarkable tale, one that is easily some of the best TV since M*A*S*H. (Note, I didn't like M*A*S*H when it aired, but after catching a few re-runs, I can see some of the same types of character chemistry and witty plots that make Buffy what it is.) 

Buffy now has enough episodes to live in syndication forever, but strangely, when watching them in syndication, they feel far too short for me. (Maybe because they play TEN EPISODES A WEEK. ) I think firefly may be really picking up steam - a LOT of people have come out in support of this show after their episode "out of gas" aired a few weeks ago.

So, hopefully a new Joss show will be on somewhere - he's one heck of a writer and idea-man - but in Buffy's case, it was the right combo of a talented writer, a fledgling network giving his show a chance, and Joss's discovery of several writers and actors who shared his vision of how good a TV story could be.


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## Henry (Nov 5, 2002)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *I missed the inappropriate lesbian fantasy element that only caters to male audience rather than promoting sexual tolerance and non-discrimination (no matter how much GLAAD is trying to put out this message).   *




I'm possibly misplacing your tone, but the above looks to me that you disliked their treatment of the relationship. I personally think (noting that my opinion doesn't matter much here, because I am heterosexual), that the Willow/Tara relationship was one of the best-portrayed homosexual relationships on television to date. Interestingly enough, the relationship is focused not on the fact that they were homosexual, but on the fact that they loved one another intimately - their gender almost didn't even seem to be an issue. Even the first time the characters kissed on-screen (during "The Body") was handled in one of the besty and most innnovative ways I have ever seen to date. To me, their relationship had passion, power, intimacy, and most of all understanding and friendship - what everybody ultimately wants in a One True Love.

Rather than relegating the Willow/Oz relationship to the back burner, it actually made recognition of the earlier relationship, and acted as a supplement to it. GLAAD's rather upsetting tactics of acting as if to boycott the show should Willow date a male again in the future really irked me - it served to hurt their cause rather than to help it. Whether Willon was Lesbian or Bisexual wasn't the issue - the issue was someone unexpectedly finding love inside their own gender, and pursuing that reagardless of the fact - it was a love theme, not a "lesbian theme", and many Homosexual posters I spoke with over on the Scoopme boards and the a.t.b-v-s newsgroups pretty much felt the same way.

If I misread your post, Ranger REG, I apologize - but that relationship to me was one of the strong points of the past few years, not one of the weaker ones.


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## Ranger REG (Nov 5, 2002)

If you want to go deep, I like the dynamics of their relationship over the course of two years. It is like a normal relationship that has its ups and downs.

But if you stick with the shallow end of my soul, I just like the idea of Willow (mixed in with her _American Pie_ character) is shagging a girl. Hehehe. It is something about this girl-next-door with a naughty side that arouses me.  

You don't see much of that in mainstream TV.   

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to search the internet for more _Buffy-_themed erotic stories.


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## WizarDru (Nov 6, 2002)

Another factor that needs to be considered is that after the seventh season, standard SAG contracts expire, and most likely everyone will be renegoitiating their contracts, not just SMG.  This can mean a serious increase in the cost of the show, which in turn can signal it's end.  This is why most Star Trek shows end after seven years, for example.  It's not coincidence, it's economics.  It's only the rare and fairly succesful show that even faces this issue, and fewer still that continue on afterwards (e.r. being a prime example).

The question is how much is UPN willing to pay for Buffy.  If the ratings are down this year, that will be a serious disincentive.  Much as I'd miss Buffy, a new show would allow them to do other things.  Perhaps a new show in the same continuity would be welcome.  I know I'd welcome a Dawn/Spike show.  How about a Xander/Willow sitcom, ala Will and Grace.


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## KnowTheToe (Nov 6, 2002)

I personally did not like the relationship between Willow and Tara.  I think it was a forced change on Willow's character and was just done to follow the trend of GLAADs presures to ensure gay characters in every show.   

I wish Josh and the rest of the power players of the show had the strength not to give in.  I hate political groups like GLAAD.  No matter how nobel their asperations, they use blackmail and hatred as weapons against people.  I can't delve any deeper without getting political and getting this shut down.

Tara's and Willows characters were both enjoyable and i think that Joss did an excellent job with the relationship, it was about love and not about gay stereotypes, but I wish it had never been.


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## Crothian (Nov 6, 2002)

KnowTheToe said:
			
		

> *I personally did not like the relationship between Willow and Tara.  I think it was a forced change on Willow's character and was just done to follow the trend of GLAADs presures to ensure gay characters in every show.
> *




I think it was more done because Joss is gay and wanted to explore a gay character.


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## coyote6 (Nov 6, 2002)

Crothian said:
			
		

> *I think it was more done because Joss is gay and wanted to explore a gay character. *




Isn't Whedon married to a woman? She sings on the demo track on the "Once More With Feeling" CD.


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## Darkness (Nov 7, 2002)

coyote6 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Isn't Whedon married to a woman? She sings on the demo track on the "Once More With Feeling" CD. *



And that proves _what_? 

Heh. Not to say that he is gay or not, though; I don't have the slightest idea about mr. Whedon's sexual orientation.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Nov 7, 2002)

Is Willow a lesbian or bisexual, then?


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## Ranger REG (Nov 7, 2002)

KnowTheToe said:
			
		

> *
> I personally did not like the relationship between Willow and Tara.  I think it was a forced change on Willow's character and was just done to follow the trend of GLAADs presures to ensure gay characters in every show.
> 
> I wish Josh and the rest of the power players of the show had the strength not to give in.  I hate political groups like GLAAD.  No matter how nobel their asperations, they use blackmail and hatred as weapons against people.  I can't delve any deeper without getting political and getting this shut down.
> ...



I don't know if it was pressured or not. AFAIC, the relationship did not upset me nor do I find it derisive.

What I do find insulting is using Willow's magic as some kind of a drug instead of a disorder. It is from this that I heard rumor regarding the change in dynamic of her character as a way to appease special interest groups that oppose drug abuse. The idea of trying to quite cold turkey of who she is, is like asking an obese person to give up eating entirely when he should change and moderate his eating habit and diet.

As for her sexual preference, does it matter we should classify her as heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual? If she is sexually comfortable in finding a companion regardless of gender, then more power to her.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Nov 7, 2002)

I must agree with Ranger.
  Everyone Buffy knows seems to be in a great deal of personal pain - if Willow can find companionship amidst the lonely and grim world of war she has been dragged into, more power to her.

  Willow seems like a very delicate, easily injured girl.  
  She is caught squarely in the midst of something every bit as grim for her as being drafted and sent off to war would be for us.
  Not so good for her.

  I must say, Buffy has style.
  I have seen my share of Dracula films.
  I have seen the repeated death of Dracula, in film after film, until I started sympathizing with the poor guy.
  Then along comes Buffy, who stakes him, and when he reforms, stakes him again and says:

  I know you always come back.  I've watched all your films.

  Then, when he tries to reform yet again, Buffy says:

  I'm standing right here!

  And Dracula gives it up and beats it.

  Not bad.
  Not bad either, when she purposefully stepped on the Demon of Fear, and squashed him into jello.


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## Mathew_Freeman (Nov 7, 2002)

The greatest thing about the Tara/Willow relationship was the dialogue, like Willow saying "I don't want you to think I just come round here for the spells, y'know?"

Although the Spike/Buffy's mom conversation is still my favourite:

B'sMom: Have we ever met before?
Spike: Yeah. You stuck a fire axe in my head. 'Get your hands off my daughter'. Y'know.
B'sMom: Oh.


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## Horacio (Nov 7, 2002)

Tallarn said:
			
		

> *The greatest thing about the Tara/Willow relationship was the dialogue, like Willow saying "I don't want you to think I just come round here for the spells, y'know?"
> 
> Although the Spike/Buffy's mom conversation is still my favourite:
> 
> ...




Buffy is one of the most quotable series I've ever seen...


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## Crothian (Nov 7, 2002)

Horacio said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Buffy is one of the most quotable series I've ever seen... *




It is very quotible, so is Sports Night.  But Buffy is probably a little more quotible dues to lasting 7 seasons verse two.


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## S'mon (Apr 23, 2003)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> *Is Willow a lesbian or bisexual, then? *




If she was a real person she'd be bisexual.  Since she's a fictional character she used to be heterosexual but now she's homosexual.  
Interesting reading about the political pressure to ensure that Willow never 'went back' - the sudden 100% switch in orientation always seemed implausible to me.  People who are gay know they're gay from an early age, it doesn't hit them at age 20.


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## Mark (Apr 23, 2003)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *People who are gay know they're gay from an early age, it doesn't hit them at age 20. *




That's what my little brother tells me...and I believe him.  Of course, in the mind of some male writers of fiction (or perhaps any heterosexual writers of fiction), it can happen quite easily.  It's one of the things that is an obstacle between Joss being a very good and interesting writer and Joss being a great writer.


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## S'mon (Apr 23, 2003)

Mark said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That's what my little brother tells me...and I believe him.  Of course, in the mind of some male writers of fiction (or perhaps any heterosexual writers of fiction), it can happen quite easily.  It's one of the things that is an obstacle between Joss being a very good and interesting writer and Joss being a great writer. *




I get the impression that Joss would have handled Willow's orientation more plausibly if he'd been allowed to (ie wasn't scared to do so).  Eg:

There's an early indication when Willow meets the Vampire-alternate Willow that perhaps Willow has some inclinations that way "And I think she's kinda gay!"

When Willow falls for Tara she falls in love with the person, gender is almost irrelevant.  I always thought this was well handled.

It's after Willow 'becomes gay' that the problem starts.  Joss deals with this tangentially in the 'magic jacket' episode where Willow & all the other female characters lust after the boy in the magic jacket.  Reaction of everyone else to Willow:

"You can't want _him_!  You're gay!"

So Willow prepares a spell to turn him into a girl!  I got the impression that Willow was doing this as much from peer pressure (the Buffyverse corollary of GLAD-pressure on Whedon) as much as any genuine preference.

It would be nice to see US tv (and gay-rights groups, apparently) reach a maturity level where it can be accepted that some people's sexual orientation is ambiguous and not easily pigeonholed.   Some people are hardwired one way, some the other, but many are in-between, and this seems to be an unacceptable truth.  I wonder why?


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 23, 2003)

Maybe it is because nobody wants to accept that he might, maybe hidden deep inside, a sexual preference that he normaly might seem "perverted" or that would make him part of the people "who cannot understand and accept people who live their lifes their own way"...


Mustrum Ridcully


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## Umbran (Apr 23, 2003)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *People who are gay know they're gay from an early age, it doesn't hit them at age 20. *




Overgeneralization isn't a good thing, even if it isn't explicitly negative.


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## WayneLigon (Apr 23, 2003)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *
> Interesting reading about the political pressure to ensure that Willow never 'went back' - the sudden 100% switch in orientation always seemed implausible to me.  People who are gay know they're gay from an early age, it doesn't hit them at age 20. *




It depends, actually. Some interesting research on orientation suggests that sexual preference for some people can change over spans of time, wandering back and forth across gender lines; that it's not unlike a person's changing tastes for various foods (I used to really like green beans - now I cannot stand them) save that it's a lot more resistant to change.

I only have up to Season Three on DVD, so I have yet to form an opinion on her orientation.


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## WizarDru (Apr 23, 2003)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *the sudden 100% switch in orientation always seemed implausible to me.  People who are gay know they're gay from an early age, it doesn't hit them at age 20. *




I'll make sure and tell my friend from college that.  He grew up loving heavy metal, pledged a fraternity and had a steady girlfriend for a while...then one day, he came over and announced he'd realized he was gay.  Many folks, like him, spend time trying to decide or deny, partly based on upbringing and the environment they came from, I expect.  He's certainly never gone back, to my knowledge, in the fifteen or so years since...though he was quite put out that none of us acted stunned or suprised after he made his announcement. He'd had a speech prepared, and we all disappointed him by being cool about it.


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## S'mon (Apr 23, 2003)

I don't think pledging a fraternity or liking heavy metal requires any particular sexual orientation.  If he really had no idea he was gay, then suddenly one day decided he was 100% homosexual, and has stayed that way since (like Willow), I am surprised, yes.  All the accounts I've read previously have been quite the reverse, people who are strongly aligned seem to generally decide/realise their orientation in fairly early childhood.


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## WizarDru (Apr 23, 2003)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *I don't think pledging a fraternity or liking heavy metal requires any particular sexual orientation.*




Quite right, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise.  However, my point was that he didn't present a very flamboyantly gay profile, nor did he think of himself that way for some time.  One of his roommates after me, however was quite the opposite, though he claimed otherwise and actually got married.  Of course, that fell apart a year or two later, when he finally admitted it to himself (to the suprise of none).

*



			If he really had no idea he was gay, then suddenly one day decided he was 100% homosexual, and has stayed that way since (like Willow), I am surprised, yes.  All the accounts I've read previously have been quite the reverse, people who are strongly aligned seem to generally decide/realise their orientation in fairly early childhood.
		
Click to expand...


*
Subconciously, I'm sure he had some inkling when he was _almost_ 20.  Personally, I don't think he was sure, but he wouldn't be the first person to emerge from his teens sexually confused.  More specifically, I was miffed that he, being homosexual, had had more success with women than I had. 

I have no doubt that you are correct, *GENERALLY*.  But, as Umbram pointed out, there are exceptions to every rule.  My friend was not the only person I knew in college who realized their sexual orientation there...just the only one I knew personally.  

It may have something to do with the changes in attitudes in the last fifteen-twenty years, as well.  Being publicly gay in your mid-teens may not be as uncommon as it was when I was at that age.  I really couldn't say, though...I'm no sociologist, after all.  At least, not unless I can make a Bluff check.


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## barsoomcore (Apr 23, 2003)

Anybody who thinks Will had no inkling that she might find girls interesting is forgetting Evil Willow.

"I think I'm kinda gay."

Hee hee hee.

And remember that Willow and Tara's relationship took a long time to get to the point where things were romantic. They were "doing spells together" for half a year -- which, when you're eighteen, is pretty much a lifetime.

I don't think we were meant to think Will just switched one day and never looked back. I think she was still attracted to Oz when he came back -- just not as much as she was attracted to Tara.

I reckon.


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## Vocenoctum (Apr 23, 2003)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *Anybody who thinks Will had no inkling that she might find girls interesting is forgetting Evil Willow.
> 
> "I think I'm kinda gay."
> 
> ...




Sure they were friends, but IIRC, Evil Willow and Evil Xander were hanging all over each other. Evil Willow was a more open/ sensual person, but I don't think anything really signified Evil Willow being homosexual.

My problems with the relationship are that I never really liked Tara, and Willow's Uber Magic got just plain irritating. The fact that she is now totally 100% gay, with no doubt in her mind seems a bit over the top as well. Kennedy is less irritating to me than Tara, but still blah. (As are all the protoslayers truthfully, and Dawn, so maybe it's just me


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## barsoomcore (Apr 23, 2003)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> *Sure they were friends, but IIRC, Evil Willow and Evil Xander were hanging all over each other. Evil Willow was a more open/ sensual person, but I don't think anything really signified Evil Willow being homosexual.*



Um, didn't she lick Good Willow's neck? You know. Just saying.

I can't claim to have perfect recollection. Hanigan in tight leather pants always throws off my concentration.  


> *My problems with the relationship are that I never really liked Tara ... Kennedy is less irritating to me than Tara, but still blah. (As are all the protoslayers truthfully, and Dawn, so maybe it's just me  *



See, now here we disagree. Tara's one of my favourite Buffy characters of all time -- I'd've happily watched the "Willow & Tara Show".

I kind of agree with you, though -- and don't really believe that Will's 100% one way or the other. I think they're making her that way to avoid backlash from the sizable community that has turned her into something of an icon. If she starts chasing boys around there's a large number of fans who would be pretty angered and feel let down, and sadly I think Buffy's become the kind of show where such things drive story decisions. It's too bad -- especially after the bravery the producers showed in getting us here in the first place.


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## WizarDru (Apr 23, 2003)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *Um, didn't she lick Good Willow's neck? You know. Just saying.
> 
> I can't claim to have perfect recollection. Hanigan in tight leather pants always throws off my concentration.  *




You want your concentration broke?  Go watch the trailer for "American Wedding".  Now THAT will break your concentration.


What were we talking about, again?


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## drothgery (Apr 23, 2003)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *I don't think we were meant to think Will just switched one day and never looked back. I think she was still attracted to Oz when he came back -- just not as much as she was attracted to Tara.
> 
> I reckon. *




It's just kind of odd that 
1) After Willow & Tara became serious, she hasn't even looked at a guy except under the influence of magic.
2) Pre-Tara, she never looked at a girl (excepting Evil Willow).


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## John Crichton (Apr 23, 2003)

Considering she's still pretty yound (early 20's in the show) she simply may not want anything to do with guys right now is more comfy with women.  It does happen.  Doesn't mean that she isn't attracted to both.  There just hasn't been any male around that has got her juices flowing.


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## S'mon (Apr 23, 2003)

drothgery said:
			
		

> *
> 
> It's just kind of odd that
> 1) After Willow & Tara became serious, she hasn't even looked at a guy except under the influence of magic.
> 2) Pre-Tara, she never looked at a girl (excepting Evil Willow). *




Yes, this is what bugs me.  Joss could have created a character who was 'in denial', but there was absolutely no inkling of this prior to meeting Tara, eg she'd had a crush on Xander for years.  Her falling for Tara seemed totally plausible to me, it's her behaviour since that seems odd, except perhaps as a response to societal pressure to 'stay over the line', because people (her friends in-show, like the boycott-threateners out of) can't deal with ambiguity.  That seems the most charitable explanation, the other one being that Joss doesn't want the hassle he'd get if he didn't sacrifice character credibility to political imperatives.


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## WizarDru (Apr 23, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *Considering she's still pretty yound (early 20's in the show) she simply may not want anything to do with guys right now is more comfy with women.  It does happen.  Doesn't mean that she isn't attracted to both.  There just hasn't been any male around that has got her juices flowing. *




Didn't Giles' "Grown up time at the Pump House" occur after Willow had declared herself gay?  She certainly found him pretty sexy, then.  (And damn, that man can sing).


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## barsoomcore (Apr 23, 2003)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *Her falling for Tara seemed totally plausible to me, it's her behaviour since that seems odd.*



Oh, I agree.

But that's Season Seven. And Season Seven, like the last half of Season Six, doesn't count. That's my theory.

"Tabula Rasa", where they all lose their memories and then Giles and Tara leave is the series finale, as far as I'm concerned. Everything since has been in this weird alternate universe where character and story no longer count.

Look out, barsoomcore's getting cranky again! Everybody duck and cover!

Suffice to say I no longer watch the show, and yes, the fact that I can't reconcile Willow's behaviour post-Tara with the character I think I knew has been a part of that.


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## John Crichton (Apr 24, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *Didn't Giles' "Grown up time at the Pump House" occur after Willow had declared herself gay?  She certainly found him pretty sexy, then.  (And damn, that man can sing). *



LOL...

Man, that's just creepy.  Willow and Giles have that whole teacher/student thing going.  Ew.


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## dreaded_beast (Apr 24, 2003)

tara was all right, but i never really liked her character as much as oz. don't hate me, but i'm kinda glad her character got killed off, she irritated me somewhat, but i just can't place my finger on why.

i'm not sure of how much i would be into a Willow spin-off. willow is cool and all, but i don't know how much i would enjoy the show.


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## John Crichton (Apr 24, 2003)

Hmmmmm.... a Willow spin-off.  I know that would drive some of the guys around here into a feeding frenzy.  

After thinking about it for a bit I think it could work.  She is the Ultimate Support Character (tm) on Buffy and tends to be a little wishy-washy when not being evil.  But the show has never revolved around her.  When they do (see the guest appearance on Angel) she took the spotlight and rocked.  If you give her a solid supporting cast I would love to see it.  I could see either Xander, Andrew, Anya or Dawn crossing over to the new show (like Wesley in Angel) and really making things entertaining.  Of course Alyson H. is probably looking for more a film career and may not want to be typecast as Willow...


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## AuroraGyps (Apr 24, 2003)

A Willow spin-off... I'm there dude!


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## Umbran (Apr 24, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *I could see either Xander, Andrew, Anya or Dawn crossing over to the new show *




Anya and Xander probably aren't options.  Emma Caulfield has long said that she woudln't be coming back for an 8th Buffy season.  I'd expect that extends to moving to Angel.  Nicholas Brendon has apparently signed a contract to do a sitcom for FOX.  

If they are taking a year break before a spinoff (as now seems likely), then the sitcom may or may not be an issue - if it fails, he's set to go.  If it succeeds, he's even less available.


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## Henry (Apr 24, 2003)

Giles' time at the pumphouse - Willow did make a comment on how sexy Giles was - and Tara called her on it, after which she said that "if you're into that kinda thing" (rough paraphrase). So, yeah, it shows up from time to time - but it hasn't shown up AT ALL since the G.L.A.D. flack that Mutant Enemy received from early last year. It was about that time that Joss made his famous "Willow is Gay, always will from this point on" speech.


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## John Crichton (Apr 24, 2003)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *Anya and Xander probably aren't options.  Emma Caulfield has long said that she woudln't be coming back for an 8th Buffy season.  I'd expect that extends to moving to Angel.  Nicholas Brendon has apparently signed a contract to do a sitcom for FOX.
> 
> If they are taking a year break before a spinoff (as now seems likely), then the sitcom may or may not be an issue - if it fails, he's set to go.  If it succeeds, he's even less available. *



I was going on the assumption that any spinoff wouldn't happen for at least a year.  And I also was only speaking in the "wouldn't it be cool" sense rather than actually thinking it would be happen.


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## S'mon (Apr 24, 2003)

Henry said:
			
		

> *Giles' time at the pumphouse - Willow did make a comment on how sexy Giles was - and Tara called her on it, after which she said that "if you're into that kinda thing" (rough paraphrase). So, yeah, it shows up from time to time - but it hasn't shown up AT ALL since the G.L.A.D. flack that Mutant Enemy received from early last year. It was about that time that Joss made his famous "Willow is Gay, always will from this point on" speech. *




I can sympathise with Joss, it must be scary to be on the receiving end of a negative-publicity campaign.  From the sound of it I don't think GLAD are doing anything to promote the cause they're supposed to stand for, though (as opposed to stirring up trouble for the sake of it).  I suppose that's a political comment, but when a fictional fantasy-genre character's behaviour is determined by political requirements I don't know whether discussing it is allowed or not.  

Edit: what I'm thinking is, there seems to be a rule (apparently backed by threats, although I didn't realise this until I read this thread) on US tv that heterosexual characters can become homosexual, but not vice versa, and once having 'crossed', can never go back.  So it would not be acceptable for eg a happily homosexual character to fall in love with someone of the opposite gender, although the reverse is allowed (these days).  
On the opposite side, it's noticeable that while lesbian heroic characters are now ok in genre fiction, male homosexual characters as protagonists are only allowed in comedy or as comedy relief, not as heroes (unlike Willow, say) - a couple of the 'Enterprise' series' main  characters seem obviously homosexual to me (and to my wife, who's pretty astute at that kind of thing), but apparently that's not officially the case.

Getting away from gender orientation, I was wondering if there has yet been an example in genre shows of a black male character having a romantic relationship with a white female one?  This seems to be a bit of a conservative taboo on US tv (as opposed to black woman/white man, which seems to be accepted, funnily enough).  
We're a month or so behind on Buffy in the UK btw, so if Wood & Buffy get together I don't know about it.


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## dreaded_beast (Apr 24, 2003)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *We're a month or so behind on Buffy in the UK btw, so if Wood & Buffy get together I don't know about it.   *




so how far along are you? what is the last ep you have seen?


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## Benben (Apr 24, 2003)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *
> I was wondering if there has yet been an example in genre shows of a black male character having a romantic relationship with a white female one? *




Gunn and Fred on Angel.


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## Staffan (Apr 25, 2003)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *Getting away from gender orientation, I was wondering if there has yet been an example in genre shows of a black male character having a romantic relationship with a white female one?  This seems to be a bit of a conservative taboo on US tv (as opposed to black woman/white man, which seems to be accepted, funnily enough).*



You could consider Worf/Dax on DS9. Worf is technically a klingon though, and not black - though the actor is (or they used a whole lot of makeup).


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## John Crichton (Apr 25, 2003)

Benben said:
			
		

> *Gunn and Fred on Angel. *



Wow, I can't believe I didn't think of that.  doh


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## Jemal (Apr 25, 2003)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> what I'm thinking is, there seems to be a rule (apparently backed by threats, although I didn't realise this until I read this thread) on US tv that heterosexual characters can become homosexual, but not vice versa, and once having 'crossed', can never go back.  *




You've never seen "Will&Grace" have you.
And yes, I know you were just generalizing, and there's an exception to every rule, I'm just playing devils advocate.

BTW, maybe we should change the title of this thread to "the Homosexual TV discussion page." or something... I mean right now it's called 'buffy to be cancelled', but only the first 20 or so messages are abou that.. Someone skipping page one would think it's being cancelled B/C of willow being gay.

Anyways, on spinoffs - I'ld like a Faith spinoff, but I don't think it'll happen.  I don't know if she'ld be good enough for the lead role, and I don't know how any of the others would fit in with her... I can see maybe Spike + her as a good team, but I'm pretty sure Marsters has allready said he's moving over to Angel when buffy's done.  It's already final that some of the writers from buffy and firefly are going there, so maybe a few more characters... Xander no, Anya no, Dawn probably not (Though I gotta admit, she is becoming more drool-worthy with each day.)


EDIT: And yes, Michael Dorn (Worf) is black.


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## S'mon (Apr 25, 2003)

Benben said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Gunn and Fred on Angel. *




S'mon slaps head and says *d'oh*


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## S'mon (Apr 25, 2003)

dreaded_beast said:
			
		

> *
> 
> so how far along are you? what is the last ep you have seen? *




Im missed the title of last night's ep, it had the Potentials being drilled out the back of the Summers residence, and Buffy giving a big speech where she told everyone else they were useless.

Anya: "I provide the irony!"

Xander: "Hey, uh, my job!"

& Buffy had a chat with the chaps who created the First Slayer.


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## S'mon (Apr 25, 2003)

Staffan said:
			
		

> *
> You could consider Worf/Dax on DS9. Worf is technically a klingon though, and not black - though the actor is (or they used a whole lot of makeup). *




S'mon slaps head and says *d'oh* again.  

Sometimes I really should learn to keep my mouth shut/fingers off the keyboard.


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## S'mon (Apr 25, 2003)

Jemal said:
			
		

> *
> 
> You've never seen "Will&Grace" have you.
> *




Haven't watched more than a few seconds of it - you're saying Will fancies Grace or some other female person?


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## S'mon (Apr 25, 2003)

Re spin-offs - in the Angel ep last night in the UK (Faith & Wesley hunt Angelus to a vampire drug den), I thought Faith & Wesley made a great pairing (again), the chemistry between them was excellent.  Faith on her own seems a bit wooden though.  Wesley has become my role model.


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## John Crichton (Apr 25, 2003)

Just quickly on the Faith spinoff:  There won't be one because Eliza has signed on to do another show.  But there are other threads on that so check em out for some other takes.


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## Jemal (Apr 27, 2003)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *Haven't watched more than a few seconds of it - you're saying Will fancies Grace or some other female person? *




WILL&GRACE SPOILER: 
If you watch until the last episode, Will+Grace Get married.
(If my aunt, who's a big W&G fan just like I'm a BTVS fan, isn't yanking my chain.)


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## Chun-tzu (Apr 27, 2003)

Jemal said:
			
		

> *WILL&GRACE SPOILER:
> If you watch until the last episode, Will+Grace Get married.
> (If my aunt, who's a big W&G fan just like I'm a BTVS fan, isn't yanking my chain.) *




Personally, I highly doubt that will happen. First, I seriously doubt the last episode has been even written yet. Second, I think the gay community, one of its target audiences, would be highly offended. Third, and this doesn't necessarily mean much, but Grace is now married, and it's not to Will.


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## Dinkeldog (Apr 27, 2003)

Nothing to do with being offended.  Reality dictates, however...and we know how often the world throws reality out the window.


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jemal _*
> WILL&GRACE SPOILER:
> If you watch until the last episode, Will+Grace Get married.
> (If my aunt, who's a big W&G fan just like I'm a BTVS fan, isn't yanking my chain.) *




um...Will seems pretty 100% homesexual to me!  I don't think he'd want to give up  what men have to offer to go to Grace, and yes she seems pretty happily married right about now.

As for Willow & Tara, I agree that I always thought Willow was bisexual and was disappointed when she took a complete turn around and forgot the last half of her life in the series.  Its sort of like on TV you can be heterosexual or homosexual but you're not allowed to be bisexual.

Personally I think there are more people who are bisexual (closet or otherwise) than there are who are either homosexual or heterosexual mostly because women and men in many cultures around the world don't face the same stigma with same-gender relationships.

And while we're on the subject...Asian actors/actresses are seriously underrepresented in American TV as something other than a stereotype or token diversity sidekick.


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## S'mon (Apr 27, 2003)

_Originally posted by KitanaVorr _

>>As for Willow & Tara, I agree that I always thought Willow was bisexual and was disappointed when she took a complete turn around and forgot the last half of her life in the series.  Its sort of like on TV you can be heterosexual or homosexual but you're not allowed to be bisexual.<<

Well said - bisexuality seems to be 'beyond the pale', perhaps even more now than 20 years ago (sexual ambiguity seems to have been big in the '70s) - I wonder if it's something to do with the social impact of AIDs?  Until I read this thread it hadn't occurred to me that it was homosexual-rights groups pushing this, I assumed if anything it was conservative TV networks.

>>Personally I think there are more people who are bisexual (closet or otherwise) than there are who are either homosexual or heterosexual mostly because women and men in many cultures around the world don't face the same stigma with same-gender relationships.<<

Given that there have been cultures where homosexuality has been the norm (with heterosexual relations relegated to an inferior position), like classical Greece, I would tend to agree that the genetic potential for attraction to either gender probably lies within the majority of the population - I don't think we're genetically much different from the ancient Greeks, even though our culture is.  That's not the same as saying that most people are in actuality bisexual, in a culture with strong social prescriptions most people will be brought up to follow the prescribed line, and that will suit all but a small minority.  In 1950s America that would be to be heterosexual, in modern Californian culture seen on tv it seems you are allowed to be straight or gay, but not bi.

>>And while we're on the subject...Asian actors/actresses are seriously underrepresented in American TV as something other than a stereotype or token diversity sidekick. <<

I'm sure you're right - there seem to be more now than previously, though.  What I notice most in US tv is the almost total absence of hispanic characters in most tv shows set in Los Angeles, there seem to be more hispanic actors in shows filmed in Vancouver or (especially) New York.


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## KitanaVorr (Apr 27, 2003)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *I'm sure you're right - there seem to be more now than previously, though.  What I notice most in US tv is the almost total absence of hispanic characters in most tv shows set in Los Angeles, there seem to be more hispanic actors in shows filmed in Vancouver or (especially) New York. *




Actually, there are alot more hispanic actors/actresses in TV now, not including that there are major latin networks in California and Texas that are completely devoted to hispanic, music stations, etc.

Not a huge amount, but a great deal more.  Greetings from Tuscon (which is an incredibly funny and well done sitcom) is a good example of one.  Kingpin (a drama) is another.  Granted they do play off stereotypes, but its a start and the shows are highly rated.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 28, 2003)

For the black/white coupling in TV and movies:
I just watched Shaft, and the victim at the beginning of the movie is black and seems to have a white girlfriend.

Mustrum Ridcully


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## S'mon (Apr 28, 2003)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> *For the black/white coupling in TV and movies:
> I just watched Shaft, and the victim at the beginning of the movie is black and seems to have a white girlfriend.
> 
> Mustrum Ridcully *




'girlfriend'?


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## WizarDru (Apr 28, 2003)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 'girlfriend'?  *




Heh heh.  Well, we've come a long way from the 70's, huh?


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## Chauzu (Apr 29, 2003)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *That got your attention.  That is my prediction anyway.  It is down 27% over last year and Ms. Gellors contract is up. *




Dang, you had me hoping there.  Oh well, maybe you'll be right.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 29, 2003)

2Wizadru
Well, maybe it is because the "Learning English" books we used in school are a bit old. They used the term there, and I think it is helpful to make the difference clear.  
(In German, there was never such a distinction , and thus, the actual meaning sometimes is unclear. I thought it was a "good idea" of the English to have these words...)

Mustrum Ridcully


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## S'mon (Apr 29, 2003)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> *2Wizadru
> Well, maybe it is because the "Learning English" books we used in school are a bit old. They used the term there, and I think it is helpful to make the difference clear.
> (In German, there was never such a distinction , and thus, the actual meaning sometimes is unclear. I thought it was a "good idea" of the English to have these words...)
> 
> Mustrum Ridcully *




I'm guessing the role of the character in question would be Frauenzimmer, if I'm remembering my German right?


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 29, 2003)

Well, maybe I always misunderstood "girlfriend", but "Frauenzimmer" doesn`t fit. A "Frauenzimmer" is just a more or less degorative term for a woman. But it is also an old expression, no more commonly used. Today expressions might be something like "Ische" (for a girlfriend, like in: "Er hatte seine neue Ische dabei... Dicke Titten aber nix in der Birne"). Other terms for woman are "Schnalle" or "Schnitte" (the last one describes an attractive one) 


But, erm... Back to topic? But which was the topic? Not bisexuality. 

It is clear that Buffy ends this season, I think.
But what Whedon does after it, I can`t say...
He should work together with the guys from FarScape and make a "canceled but great sci fi shows" revival show. 

Mustrum Ridcully


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## S'mon (Apr 30, 2003)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> *Well, maybe I always misunderstood "girlfriend", but "Frauenzimmer" doesn`t fit. A "Frauenzimmer" is just a more or less degorative term for a woman. But it is also an old expression, no more commonly used.  *




Was trying to recall from school German lessons the word for prostitute, that being the likely role of a white woman 'girlfriend' to deceased black man in the 1970s Shaft movie.  I have not watched Shaft beyond the opening credits though so can't say for sure!


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 30, 2003)

If she was "just" prostitute, her emotional reaction seemed a bit to strong. (And her appearance didn`t fit), but who knows - Maybe I missed something, I watched Shaft in English and could not understand everything (especially the slang).
(Oh, and be aware I watched the "new" version with Samual L. Jackson..)

Mustrum Ridcully


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## Valavien (Apr 30, 2003)

Here is an interesting article about the possible future of Buffy:

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/23/1050777301652.html

Sorry old news just saw that it was put in another Buffy post


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## S'mon (May 2, 2003)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> *If she was "just" prostitute, her emotional reaction seemed a bit to strong. (And her appearance didn`t fit),  *




A prostitute can be attached to her pimp...

But for all I know the victim was a college professor and the woman his fiancee, I'm just going by '70s stereotypes.


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## S'mon (May 2, 2003)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> *
> (Oh, and be aware I watched the "new" version with Samual L. Jackson..)
> *




Ah, right.  Forgot there was such a thing.


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## Vocenoctum (May 3, 2003)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> *
> 
> It is clear that Buffy ends this season, I think.
> But what Whedon does after it, I can`t say...
> ...




Maybe a new network!


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 3, 2003)

Since I don`t live in the USA, I don`t care about a new network 
I just want some good Science Fiction and Fantasy shows to enjoy. 

Mustrum Ridcully


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