# Chaotic Monks - how to get them?



## Mad Hamish (Nov 24, 2011)

I know that there's the Martial Artist Archetype, is there another way?


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## paradox42 (Nov 24, 2011)

Start as Monk, then switch alignments. You won't be able to gain any more Monk levels, but you still have what you'd gained prior to the switch.


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## Friend of the Dork (Nov 24, 2011)

Ask you DM to houserule such stupidity. Or to have you make an alternative Monk that retains what you like and removes abilities that relies on "inner peace" stuff. 

I wouldn't mind allowing Lawful Bards and Barbarians in my game either.


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## SkredlitheOgre (Nov 24, 2011)

Mad Hamish said:


> I know that there's the Martial Artist Archetype, is there another way?




I'm just using the Core Rulebook for this, so if you're using other books, this may not help as much.  Anyway...

Aside from the alignment of the Monk and that the Ki Strike is considered Lawful at 10th level, there's nothing specifically Lawful about the Monk, so I would think it would be easy as "My Monk is Chaotic and at 10th level, his Ki Strike is considered Chaotic" and you wouldn't really need to change anything else.

Still Mind could be 'replaced' with Fractured Mind (or something like that).  It would give you the same benefit, just the flavor is changed.  Really, you could simply change the names on most of the abilities so they reflect the Chaotic stance but get the same benefit.

You could also change the Ki pool so that instead of gaining another attack with FoB or increasing your AC for 1 round, you could replace one of those with a +2 to your Strength for 1 round, sort of like a mini Barbarian rage.  (The rage is mini, not the Barbarian.  Although, if it's a Halfling or Gnome Barbarian...)

I'm looking at this as turning the Monk into a pseudo-Barbarian, I guess.  That's my take on it.  Good luck!


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## Friend of the Dork (Nov 24, 2011)

To be honest, I don't know why Martial Artist does not work for you. AFAICS, you only lose the spiritual class abilities, which actually makes sense. 

Maybe they could let you do that for Drunken Master too.. that's more like an ex-Monk anyway.


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## Mad Hamish (Nov 25, 2011)

Thanks people. 
The character has already been in play before picking up Monk so starting as lawful and switching out doesn't work. 
The GM has said that he won't relax the alignment restriction so it looks like it's the Martial Artist or Nothing. 
The main reason I would like a straight monk instead of Martial Artist is Abundant Step which a Martial Artist doesn't seem to be able to use because they don't have Ki points to spend to use it.


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## Wycen (Nov 25, 2011)

Not quite what you want, but I recall an adventure, perhaps even by Paizo, in which monks had become chaotic.  Hmm.  Maybe it was cannibal monks in the Savage Tide adventure path?  Or maybe it was undead monks I'm thinking of...  Maybe somebody else will remember.


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## Angrydad (Nov 25, 2011)

To me, a Monk is a martial artist who devotes his/her time to careful and disciplined study of physical and spiritual arts. Chaotic characters can be well trained warriors, but the flavor of a chaotic warrior is more that they figure out their abilities/feats through sheer random chance and experimentation, whereas a monk gains their abilities through thoughtful study and practice. 

Really, it's more about the feel of law vs chaos and the mentality I think would go along with each. I'm sure you could make a variant monk with some slightly different abilities or whatnot, but the class RAW indicate more lawful. Drunken Master is about the only technique I, as a DM, would allow a monk to change his or her alignment to chaotic for.


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## Mad Hamish (Nov 26, 2011)

I don't really see Chaotic vs Lawful making a huge difference in terms of self-discipline. 
If you can get a level 20 Wizard who's chaotic I can't see why it'd be such a big stretch to have a chaotic monk.

I also don't really see why the non-lawful Barbarian requirement is there.
I can understand alignment restrictions where the power is coming from external sources but for something like Barbarian or Monk I don't see it 

(Now it'd be pretty easy to fluff by saying that the Ki powers come from Axiomites or Inevitables and Rage abilities come from power granted from Proteans, if I ever run a game again I might work that in as a discovery people make through the campaign)


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## SkredlitheOgre (Nov 26, 2011)

Mad Hamish said:


> I don't really see Chaotic vs Lawful making a huge difference in terms of self-discipline.
> If you can get a level 20 Wizard who's chaotic I can't see why it'd be such a big stretch to have a chaotic monk.




Exactly.  Especially since the flavor text for the Monk at the beginning of the Monk section in the CRB says:

"These monks (so called since they adhere to ancient philosophies and  strict martial disciplines) elevate their bodies to become weapons of  war, from battle-minded ascetics to _self-taught brawlers_."

To me, a "self-taught brawler" doesn't exactly scream 'self-discipline.'  My Monk, flavor-wise, it a two-fisted brawler, not a martial artist.  Granted, we don't pay a whole ton of attention to alignment, but still.  I tend to play a little more toward Neutral than Lawful.  Mechanically, whether you're a martial artist or a boxer, the result is the same.

I think reflavoring the Monk to make them Chaotic wouldn't take very long, just like making a Lawful Barbarian.  The Rage mechanic isn't based on alignment and that's the core of the Barbarian.  I do find it funny that you can be Neutral as a Barbarian, though.

Edit:  Having looked over the Barbarian in the CRB, I saw nothing that says WHY a Barbarian can't be Lawful, other than 'because the book says so.'


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## Viktyr Gehrig (Nov 26, 2011)

Take two levels of Martial Artist and then switch to  Psychic Warrior. You'll get the equivalent of _abundant step_ earlier, you'll be able to use it more times per day, and you'll have access to other better powers along the way.

Or if you want to be really clever, take two levels of Rogue-- and the ki pool talent-- and one level of Psychic Warrior and then advance as a Psychic Fist. Or Ninja 2/Wilder 1, if your Charisma is better, but then you'll have to spend a feat on _Psionic Fist/Weapon_.


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