# Black Widow



## pukunui (Jul 9, 2021)

Anyone seen _Black Widow_ yet? I'm thinking of taking the girls to see it tomorrow. Will let you know what I think.

According to a local reviewer, it's one of the best MCU films yet and contains nods to James Bond and other spy movies, all of which is promising!


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## Umbran (Jul 9, 2021)

I'm not going to a theater in the near future.

I am, however, hopeful that it'll be good.   I expect it'll read as less superhero, and more like any other normal human action movie, but that's okay.


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## Stalker0 (Jul 9, 2021)

I saw it tonight in IMAX.

my quick and dirty…a very average marvel movie.

action is…fine
Plot is…fine
Villain is…forgettable (aka fine for marvel movies).

the character interaction is the best part, especially with nat and her sister. But it’s not “amazing”, just good.

At the same time nothing rubbed me the wrong way, no plot point made me roll my eyes, no one did anything notably out of character, so I have no real complaints either.

so yeah…just solidly average


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## pukunui (Jul 9, 2021)

Umbran said:


> I'm not going to a theater in the near future.



Fair. It's easy to forget that COVID is still a thing in the outside world.


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## Sabathius42 (Jul 9, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> I saw it tonight in IMAX.
> 
> my quick and dirty…a very average marvel movie.
> 
> ...



I'd love to see an alternate universe MCU where a prime directive was to channel as much effort into the villains being interesting as the heros.

So forgettable....in so many films.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 9, 2021)

Sabathius42 said:


> I'd love to see an alternate universe MCU where a prime directive was to channel as much effort into the villains being interesting as the heros.
> 
> So forgettable....in so many films.



If you spend more time with the villains, then you spend less time with the heroes. It's a trade off, and Marvel is about heroes.


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## tommybahama (Jul 9, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> I saw it tonight in IMAX.




How crowded was the theater?

What Marvel or DC movies would you rank it equal to?


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## Gradine (Jul 9, 2021)

It was fine. If you've seen other middle of the road MCU action films, you've seen this one.

Florence Pugh is, as always, incredible though. Definitely the highlight of the movie


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## Sabathius42 (Jul 9, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> If you spend more time with the villains, then you spend less time with the heroes. It's a trade off, and Marvel is about heroes.



The ratio seems off when many fans can't even name the main villain from 10+ of the movies.

Spiderman and X-Men villains get a lot of traction but then you have....alien bad guy from Avengers, alien bad guy from GotG, and alien bad guy from Thor....all of which I _think_ are different from alien bad guys hanging around with Thanos?


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 9, 2021)

Sabathius42 said:


> The ratio seems off when many fans can't even name the main villain from 10+ of the movies.
> 
> Spiderman and X-Men villains get a lot of traction but then you have....alien bad guy from Avengers, alien bad guy from GotG, and alien bad guy from Thor....all of which I _think_ are different from alien bad guys hanging around with Thanos?



The MCU movies have been more successful than the X-Men and Spiderman movies. The role of the villain in the MCU is to be punched by the hero.

You probably want to look at Batman movies if you want superhero movies about villains (and where the hero is a shadowy cypher).


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## Sabathius42 (Jul 9, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> The MCU movies have been more successful than the X-Men and Spiderman movies. The role of the villain in the MCU is to be punched by the hero.
> 
> You probably want to look at Batman movies if you want superhero movies about villains (and where the hero is a shadowy cypher).



Are there not 2 MCU Spiderman films?  I haven't even seen the second one and I know the villain is Mysterio...because Mysterio is a recognizable villain with a schtick.

I have seen Avengers all the way through multiple times and bits and pieces a million times and couldn't tell you what the bad guys names were.

You don't have to make your movie about the villain to have a good villain.  Killmonger was a good villain...plenty of screentime, an understandable goal, and interesting character interaction with the hero.  Same with Loki, or Ultron, or even Ghost.  For each one of these, though, you have 3 "guy in pale makeup who wants to kill everyone because he is mad" villains nobody remembers.


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## Imaculata (Jul 9, 2021)

I want to see Black Widow at the theater, but I haven't had my 2nd covid shot yet, and I would much rather not die.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 9, 2021)

Sabathius42 said:


> Are there not 2 MCU Spiderman films? I haven't even seen the second one and I know the villain is Mysterio...because Mysterio is a recognizable villain with a schtick.



Whist part of the MCU, they where actually made by Sony. And I have seen both of them - Mysterio is rubbish. The first one spends more time with the villain, resulting in a movie that feels a lot less epic than your typical MCU stuff. It's fine, but it feels more like a TV high school comedy-drama.


Sabathius42 said:


> Killmonger was a good villain...plenty of screentime, an understandable goal, and interesting character interaction with the hero.



But we spend less time with the heroes, leaving them underdeveloped. And secondary villain Ulysses Klaw is so underdeveloped that I bet you forgot about him.


Sabathius42 said:


> Same with Loki, or Ultron, or even Ghost.



Ultron and Ghost are garbage villains. Ultron has no justification for his actions and Ghost? We never learn what kind of person she is beyond an angry sulky adolescent. Loki starts out in the hero's gang, so you can spend time with him at the same time as spending time with the hero. But you can't have every villain be a traitorous member of the hero's team.


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## Sabathius42 (Jul 9, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Whist part of the MCU, they where actually made by Sony. And I have seen both of them - Mysterio is rubbish. The first one spends more time with the villain, resulting in a movie that feels a lot less epic than your typical MCU stuff. It's fine, but it feels more like a TV high school comedy-drama.
> 
> But we spend less time with the heroes, leaving them underdeveloped. And secondary villain Ulysses Klaw is so underdeveloped that I bet you forgot about him.
> 
> Ultron and Ghost are garbage villains. Ultron has no justification for his actions and Ghost? We never learn what kind of person she is beyond an angry sulky adolescent. Loki starts out in the hero's gang, so you can spend time with him at the same time as spending time with the hero. But you can't have every villain be a traitorous member of the hero's team.



We shall be united by out completely differing opinions  on filmmaking.


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## Ryujin (Jul 9, 2021)

Umbran said:


> I'm not going to a theater in the near future.
> 
> I am, however, hopeful that it'll be good.   I expect it'll read as less superhero, and more like any other normal human action movie, but that's okay.



I get the impression that it'll be more in the style of "The Winter Soldier", which works for me.


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## Umbran (Jul 9, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> The MCU movies have been more successful than the X-Men and Spiderman movies.




I suppose that depends on what you call "successful".  What's your metric?  Worldwide Box Office Gross?
(Numbers from Box Office Mojo, in millions)

Avengers: $1519
Age of Ultron: $1402
Black Panther: $1347
Iron Man 3: $1214
Captain America: Civil War: $1153
*Spider-Man: Far From Home: $1132*
Captain Marvel: $1128
*Spider-Man: Homecoming: $880*
GotG vol 2: $863
Thor: Ragnarok: $853
Guardians of the Galaxy: $773
Doctor Strange: $678
Iron Man 2: $624
Ant Man & The Wasp: $622
Ant Man: $519
Captain America: TFA: $370

Spider-Man looks solidly in the middle of the pack.  Prior Spider-Men may have been lackluster, but once Marvel's hands were guiding them, they've done well.


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## Marc_C (Jul 9, 2021)

Saw it on Disney+. Enjoyed it. Its main claim to fame is that it is a 98% all female cast superhero movie.


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## Stalker0 (Jul 9, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> The MCU movies have been more successful than the X-Men and Spiderman movies. The role of the villain in the MCU is to be punched by the hero.



On the other hand black panther was widely praised for its good villain, and considered a core reason the movie is one of the best of the MCU to date. Loki and Thanos are both very well done in their villainous roles.


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## Stalker0 (Jul 9, 2021)

tommybahama said:


> How crowded was the theater?
> 
> What Marvel or DC movies would you rank it equal to?



At just a ballpark, maybe 1/3.

I’d rank it like an ant man. Good enjoyable movie but probably won’t watch it again.


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## Umbran (Jul 9, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> On the other hand black panther was widely praised for its good villain, and considered a core reason the movie is one of the best of the MCU to date. Loki and Thanos are both very well done in their villainous roles.




Loki is well done. Thanos is less so.

Thanos' plan doesn't hold up to 30 seconds of scrutiny.  Which is fine, if you make it clear he really is the "Mad Titan".  But they don't do that.


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## Stalker0 (Jul 9, 2021)

So if you want my one real complaint with the movie I’ll go to spoilers:



Spoiler



Taskmaster is criminally underused in this movie. With such a cool and unique power I was hoping for some really interesting fights…watching nat fight “Hawkeye” than “cap” than “black panther” kind of thing.

but no fights are extremely short with just a few moves. Hell if they had removed taskmaster from the movie I probably wouldn’t have cared.

and my one nitpick in this movie…gravity. There is a scene early in the morning where nat falls off a building and hits several scaffolding’s on the way down….hard, and they make it sound hard and brutal. She gets up without a scratch…which was just a bit much for our “mortal avenger”


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## Ryujin (Jul 9, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Loki is well done. Thanos is less so.
> 
> Thanos' plan doesn't hold up to 30 seconds of scrutiny.  Which is fine, if you make it clear he really is the "Mad Titan".  But they don't do that.



Loki is a villain, with hopes, desires, and motivations. Thanos is more like a force of nature; it's going to happen and there's no reasoning with it.


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## Steampunkette (Jul 9, 2021)

Saw it in theater as a Matinee yesterday.

It was good? Nothing thrilling or crazy great. I thought the actress portraying Yelena did a fantastic job of providing pathos and developing her storyline which will, of course, continue into the next leg of the MCU. The rest of the acting was pretty good and it's nice to see Natasha in form as a spy and stuff rather than just tagging along with superheroes.

Taskmaster was presented as a real and realistic threat, though once again the Marvel Directors forget what Superstrength is on the Red Guardian, who does a bunch of absolutely great stuff with David Harbour's marvelous screen presence... but ultimately he winds up looking like he's either a trash fighter or massively pulling his punches because his fight scenes don't involve people getting punched across rooms constantly.

The twists are really nice and strong when they show up. I feel like acknowledging there's twists in a spy movie isn't really a spoiler, but I'm not going to elucidate on them except that I think they were well executed. I sincerely did not see two of them coming. There's also some nice notes dropped here and there across the movie which are pretty great and indicate either some Multiverse Shenanigans, Time Travel Shenanigans, or False Identity Shenanigans which I'm -here- for...

Overall it was pretty good. Kind of like every Marvel movie has to be. And it very nicely sets up the new Black Widow going forward.


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## Stalker0 (Jul 9, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Which is fine, if you make it clear he really is the "Mad Titan".  But they don't do that.



That’s part of why I enjoyed thanos, he’s not the stereotypical crazy person, but he is still quite mad.

As you say, anyone can pick the flaws in his plan, and yet he carries it forward with absolute conviction. But more than that, he truly believes the universe will thank him for it!!!

i mean that’s nuts…because thanos is nuts. But he’s functionally nuts, and extremely charismatic…a very dangerous combination. He’s more like a cult leader.


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## Umbran (Jul 9, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> That’s part of why I enjoyed thanos, he’s not the stereotypical crazy person, but he is still quite mad.




I don't require him to be stereotypical, especially because stereotypical movie maddess is insulting to folks who suffer mental illness.  I don't require that Thanos himself act in a wacky-clown-nose manner.  That'd be dumb.

I need someone in the movie to point out that _HIS PLAN WON'T WORK_.  That would demonstrate that he's mad.  Unfortunately, not a single person mentions this fact, so he ends up presenting not as mad, but fanatical, which is a different beast.


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## pukunui (Jul 10, 2021)

So I took my younger two daughters to see it this afternoon.

I'm still processing, and I would like to see it again, but not in the theater. I'll wait till it's out of premium access on Disney+.

As a father of three daughters, I was pleased that they got to watch a movie full of women kicking some serious butt. I hope that this movie does well enough at the box office to show the old white dudes in Hollywood that women can indeed carry an action movie. My daughters need more movies like this one.

If I had to find a fault with the movie, it's that they went with the whole "ensemble of bad-ass women plus a dopey man" routine.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Jul 10, 2021)

My family watched it today. I think we mostly enjoyed it. I liked it, but it wasn't anything remarkable for an MCU movie. I really liked the backstory part of the movie, as I thought that was really good, but the rest of it was kinda . . . just fine. Absolutely watchable, it's great that we finally have a movie for Black Widow (we need more well-made female-led superhero movies!), and it was thoroughly enjoyable, but it wasn't anything special and I was disappointed by some parts of it (Taskmaster being underused, so many good/serious moments being interrupted by an action scene or joke, the characters seeming invincible, and the physics-breaking 3rd act).

So, yeah, it was fine. I liked it (as is typical with the MCU), but it wasn't amazing.


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## trappedslider (Jul 10, 2021)

poor Scott..."The Incredible Shrinking Man" lol


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## DammitVictor (Jul 10, 2021)

I'm calling it in the top half of the MCU-- which is not faint praise!-- but not top shelf. What was good was very, very good but the parts that didn't land dragged the whole thing down a bit.


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## le grand fromage (Jul 10, 2021)

Enjoyed it, would watch it again, some nice minor twists & turns and a Bourne / Mission Impossible / James Bond type vibe with touches of humour as well as some dark moments, three point eight recurring out of five?


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## Tonguez (Jul 10, 2021)

Just saw it and I really liked it. Of course it was much lower powered than what we've become use to in the MCU but it fit as a Spy movie. I'd rate it better than the Ironman movies and better than Age of Ultron.
Talking about spy movies I thought the villain here worked well for a spy movie, the scheme was very Bond-like and suitably vile. 

Yelena (Florence Pugh) was the best character and the movie really was a hand over to the new 'Black Widow". The relationship between the sisters was great and I would have focussed on that more (and dropped the parents). It might have worked better as a series rather than a movie.
I agree that Task Master was criminally underused, the photographic reflexes werent really explored and we didnt get a cool mirror fight, in fact there werent any very good fights in the whole movie.

the best part of the movie though was OT Fagbenle, I cant wait to see him back again in Thunderbolts or Dark Avengers


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## Morrus (Jul 10, 2021)

Black Widow! StreamedDisney+.

Liked it (save the standard overblown Marvel flick action set piece ending, which I was bored of about 18 movies ago!)

Florence Pugh is really good. Reminded me a lot of Jodie Comer in Killing Eve.

Make sure to watch the after credits bit.

Question: BW doesn’t actually have superpowers, right? First half of the film she kept receiving injuries which would kill her instantly and brushing them off with a slight bruise. Like bone crackinginly back breakingly bouncing off railings and stuff during a hundred foot fall, her car exploding and she has a couple of smudges, more than one really vicious car wreck. Which is fine, that’s the type of film it is, but I was curious if she has enhanced durability?

Preferred the family dynamic stuff to the action, generally.


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## Nikosandros (Jul 10, 2021)

I just came back home from watching it and I enjoyed it, even if it was a bit rushed at times.

I feel that this movie does come a bit late for me. I wish that we could have gotten a Black Widow movie earlier, but alas the character has been wasted a bit, IMHO, in the MCU.


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## Nikosandros (Jul 10, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Florence Pugh is really good. Reminded me a lot of Jodie Comer in Killing Eve.



I agree, she did give a good performance.


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## Ryujin (Jul 10, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Black Widow! StreamedDisney+.
> 
> Liked it (save the standard overblown Marvel flick action set piece ending, which I was bored of about 18 movies ago!)
> 
> ...



In some versions of the character, over the years, she has received a Russian version of Cap's super serum.


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## Tonguez (Jul 10, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Black Widow! StreamedDisney+.
> 
> Liked it (save the standard overblown Marvel flick action set piece ending, which I was bored of about 18 movies ago!)
> 
> ...



I dont recall if its ever been stated outright in the MCU but in the comics she received a variant of the supersoldier serum. For the movie I did wonder when Melina mentions Natasha having been taken by Draykov because of her Genetic capability (_or something?_), if that was a hint of her being more than normal human (I guess now we'll never know).

Even without it I just shrugged off her surviving the fall as being due to superior training and peak level agility, surviving car crashes is standard action movie physics


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## Morrus (Jul 10, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> Even without it I just shrugged off her surviving the fall as being due to superior training and peak level agility, surviving car crashes is standard action movie physics



It is, but this went waaaaaaaaaaay beyond Bond-level endurance. It was definitely superhuman (and _very _superhuman at that). The trauma is depicted as being quite real and brutal, more so than in most Marvel films where the violence is more cartoony, but she shrugs it off.


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## pukunui (Jul 11, 2021)

Morrus said:


> It is, but this went waaaaaaaaaaay beyond Bond-level endurance. It was definitely superhuman (and _very _superhuman at that). The trauma is depicted as being quite real and brutal, more so than in most Marvel films where the violence is more cartoony, but she shrugs it off.



Agreed. Especially since that scene contrasted Nat's ability to survive a fall with very little harm with that other widow's inability to do so. She had a very clearly broken leg and was so incapacitated that Dreykov forced her to kill herself. Admittedly, the widow fell straight down to the ground, whereas Nat hit a few things on the way down, but the way in which she hit those things made it seem like she should have been much worse off than the widow.


Having only recently watched _The Falcon and the Winter Soldier_, I did enjoy how this film also took more time to slow down and dig into the character interactions. Those were definitely the best part for me. I loved the whole exploration of family in this film, both in the context of Nat's "fake" spy family and in the context of the Red Room.

I agree that Florence Pugh stole the show, and I'm looking forward to seeing more of her in the MCU.


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## Stalker0 (Jul 11, 2021)

Morrus said:


> It is, but this went waaaaaaaaaaay beyond Bond-level endurance. It was definitely superhuman (and _very _superhuman at that). The trauma is depicted as being quite real and brutal, more so than in most Marvel films where the violence is more cartoony, but she shrugs it off.



Yeah this was one of my pet peeves, they made that fall in the beginning sound BRUTAL, like i winched at the scene…and she shakes it off.

while the comics have had versions of nat that are superhuman, MCU has never once claimed her to have superpowers.

and I don’t just mean her backstory, if she was doing superhero level things “in story”…you would have expected other avengers to have commented on it by now.


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## Marc_C (Jul 11, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Black Widow! StreamedDisney+.
> 
> Liked it (save the standard overblown Marvel flick action set piece ending, which I was bored of about 18 movies ago!)
> 
> ...



In the rapid image montage of her training I saw a close up of an injection with a liquid that could be super serum.


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## MarkB (Jul 11, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> Just saw it and I really liked it. Of course it was much lower powered than what we've become use to in the MCU but it fit as a Spy movie. I'd rate it better than the Ironman movies and better than Age of Ultron.
> Talking about spy movies I thought the villain here worked well for a spy movie, the scheme was very Bond-like and suitably vile.
> 
> Yelena (Florence Pugh) was the best character and the movie really was a hand over to the new 'Black Widow". The relationship between the sisters was great and I would have focussed on that more (and dropped the parents). It might have worked better as a series rather than a movie.
> ...



To be fair, we did get a very good mirror fight, it just didn't feature Taskmaster. The fight between Natasha and Yelena in Budapest was very well done.


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## RangerWickett (Jul 11, 2021)

I thought it was very fun, and the main draw was the family dynamic and everyone kind of tearing each other down with jokes but with a nugget of love deep down. We had two great action sequences (the car chase in Budapest and the helicopter rescue), and while sure, Taskmaster didn't knock it out of the park, they didn't kill that villain off, so they can always try again later.

Ideally this would have been filmed years ago and released a few months after Winter Soldier. Then Black Widow 2 could have come out at some point, with an adventure involving Nat, Steve, and Sam on the run. And then we could have released the 2021 Black Widow 3 that takes place during the blip. The first one can be this action movie with some spy stuff, the second one could be a big espionage thriller, and the third could, I dunno, involve holding society together after the blip, and stopping some fascist from taking over in the chaos.


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## Stalker0 (Jul 11, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> In the rapid image montage of her training I saw a close up of an injection with a liquid that could be super serum.



It’s too subtle too late.

If they were going to make it canon, this was the movie to do it with. We got lots of info on Nats backstory, yet not a peep about serum.

In FWS, they made it clear as day that they were working with super soldier serum.

in fact we actually got additional notes on Nats mortal nature (the other avengers don’t need Ibprofen after a fight).

if this was much earlier in black widows tenure, I could see that hint and think “perhaps a tidbit of things to come”. But as the swan song movie…nope, Nat is just human…plain and simple


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## RangerWickett (Jul 11, 2021)

Her superpower is that she has turned off falling damage.


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## Morrus (Jul 11, 2021)

RangerWickett said:


> Her superpower is that she has turned off falling damage.



And explosion damage and car crash damage.


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## Tonguez (Jul 11, 2021)

RangerWickett said:


> I thought it was very fun, and the main draw was the family dynamic and everyone kind of tearing each other down with jokes but with a nugget of love deep down. We had two great action sequences (the car chase in Budapest and the helicopter rescue), and while sure, Taskmaster didn't knock it out of the park, they didn't kill that villain off, so they can always try again later.
> 
> Ideally this would have been filmed years ago and released a few months after Winter Soldier. Then Black Widow 2 could have come out at some point, with an adventure involving Nat, Steve, and Sam on the run. And then we could have released the 2021 Black Widow 3 that takes place during the blip. The first one can be this action movie with some spy stuff, the second one could be a big espionage thriller, and the third could, I dunno, involve holding society together after the blip, and stopping some fascist from taking over in the chaos.



That would have been a brilliant and really does highlight the concerns that female superhero characters and Black Widow in particular were not valued in development of the MCU. At least moving forward they have a chance to give Yelena some respect, especially with Taskmaster, Val and Sharon Carter and the free Widows providing back up - Kate Bishop too if Yelena shows up in the Hawkeye series


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## doctorbadwolf (Jul 11, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Loki is well done. Thanos is less so.
> 
> Thanos' plan doesn't hold up to 30 seconds of scrutiny.  Which is fine, if you make it clear he really is the "Mad Titan".  But they don't do that.



Yeah someone on the team must actually think Thanos plan makes sense, because the film plays it as something that would work, but at an unacceptable cost.


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## DrunkonDuty (Jul 12, 2021)

I enjoyed it. One of the better MCU movies. I enjoyed the family dynamics. And yeah, Yelena stole the show.

As to Nat surviving all sorts of damage - yeah, she showed super human levels of endurance when she canonically is not supposed to. The bit where she survives a fall without any significant harm while another widow is incapacitated highlighted this. But this is nothing new for action movies and I'm happy to take in stride as a genre convention. Would I have preferred a bit more grit? Sure. But there's a limit to what Disney allows to be shown in MCU movies in any case.


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## billd91 (Jul 12, 2021)

Superheroes, no matter what their powers are, all have a certain amount of superhuman resilience in both the movies and the comics. Hell, just about all action movie characters do, even in the non-superheroic genres. And in the comics, the Black Widow does have some degree of super-soldier serum enhancement on top of action genre resilience.

That said, as long as there's some semblance of a nod toward how Natasha could survive a fall that incapacitated another Red Room trained Widow - I'm content. And while the incapacitated Widow seemed to fall straight down off the toppling chimney, Natasha bounced off a number of things on the way down. It's not enough for reality, but it generally is enough for superhero genre reality and the suspension of disbelief.


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## Stephen Shomo (Jul 12, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> Saw it on Disney+. Enjoyed it. Its main claim to fame is that it is a 98% all female cast superhero movie.



This


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 12, 2021)

RangerWickett said:


> Her superpower is that she has turned off falling damage.



Slow Fall​Beginning at 4th level, you can use your reaction when you fall to reduce any falling damage you take by an amount equal to five times your monk level.


Morrus said:


> And explosion damage and car crash damage.



Evasion​At 7th level, your instinctive agility lets you dodge out of the way of certain area effects, such as a blue dragon’s lightning breath or a fireball spell. When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail.


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## Stalker0 (Jul 12, 2021)

billd91 said:


> That said, as long as there's some semblance of a nod toward how Natasha could survive a fall that incapacitated another Red Room trained Widow - I'm content. And while the incapacitated Widow seemed to fall straight down off the toppling chimney, Natasha bounced off a number of things on the way down. It's not enough for reality, but it generally is enough for superhero genre reality and the suspension of disbelief.



I think my issue (which is really more of a nitpick) is that they really emphasize how brutal the landings are with sound work.

in that early scene, nat lands HARD, the sound makes it sounds VISCERAL. Normally in those types of scenes it’s a bit of “bang bang clang” and we move on.

it was the audio equivalent is hearing dishes falling and breaking next door, but then going over and seeing everything is fine. The audio set my expectation that nat suffered a truly brutal fall, but then the scene went back on that.


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## MarkB (Jul 12, 2021)

Well, she was the fake-daughter of a Russian supersoldier and an unethical neuroscientist, and was put through a training regime designed to push people beyond human limits, so you gotta wonder if she got a little something extra somewhere along the way. There's a lot of open ground in between "baseline human" and "serum-enhanced supersoldier".


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## DrunkonDuty (Jul 13, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> I think my issue (which is really more of a nitpick) is that they really emphasize how brutal the landings are with sound work.
> 
> in that early scene, nat lands HARD, the sound makes it sounds VISCERAL. Normally in those types of scenes it’s a bit of “bang bang clang” and we move on.
> 
> it was the audio equivalent is hearing dishes falling and breaking next door, but then going over and seeing everything is fine. The audio set my expectation that nat suffered a truly brutal fall, but then the scene went back on that.




Agreed. Back when I was an editor I would have picked this nit hard with the director. And then the sound people. Because the sound mixer is the one who wanted to do it this way and would have argued for the visceral thunks. Bloody sound people.


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## CapnZapp (Jul 13, 2021)

Perhaps the early reviews set my expectations too high.

There were'nt enough focus on Natasha and Scarlett.

The whole "Taskmaster can mirror your fighting style" was entirely wasted. I expected a focused battle where Natasha initially found it easy, but where Taskmaster learnt at a frightening pace. Increasingly frustrated Natasha tried her every trick with Taskmaster blocking that too, but that when things looked really desperate, Natasha's ingenuity sparked a moment of genius (exactly what I leave to the film makers) that the Taskmaster didn't see coming.

Instead we got a few feeble "I'm posing as this or that Avenger" which makes zero sense. When did the Taskmaster fight those heroes? Or is it enough for her to study news footage? Wut? Besides, why are we meant to care? If Natasha and Yelena fled the Taskmaster in the safe house chase scene specifically because "it's invincible" I missed that part. Fleeing the bad guys at first is a staple and I didn't look for more motivation than "they were swarmed by Widows led by a super-Widow".

The only satisfying (non-plasticy weightless CGI filler) fight was weirdly enough when Scarlett fought Florence.

Other than that, yes, I liked the family scenes (both with the young and adult girls). Talk about reviewers grasping for straws though. Maybe for a MCU movie it was a lot, but I felt it was a bare minimum. 

Of course the director trolled us guys when she said she put in a "Natasha changing clothes" scene "because she finds Scarlett sexy". (She was battered black and blue in that scene and there was nothing even remotely sexy about it even if she hadn't been.)

I agree with those people that say it is a letdown to have your only solo movie function as the vehicle where you hand over the baton. I'm not complaining about Pugh. But Scarlett deserved a movie that was all about Natasha, and surprise: Marvel could not pull it off even when they tried. 

Grade: B- 

What a monumental waste of Scarlett Johansson over the past, what, 12 years?


----------



## MarkB (Jul 13, 2021)

CapnZapp said:


> Perhaps the early reviews set my expectations too high.
> 
> There were'nt enough focus on Natasha and Scarlett.
> 
> ...



It is truly ridiculous that we didn't get either a Black Widow or a Black Widow and Hawkeye movie sometime around 5+ years ago.


----------



## Marc_C (Jul 13, 2021)

As someone who doesn't know who Taskmaster is in comics, the movie is perfectly fine. It was a good twist when revealed. The general public doesn't care if there was a mirror fight or not.


----------



## embee (Jul 13, 2021)

I tried watching it last night. Came across as an hour and a half of Designated Girl Fights. Pretty formulaic. I wasn't overly engaged with it and turned it off about halfway through. 

From what I could gather, Taskmaster is kind of like a Terminator robot but he's just as bad at assassinating people as Winter Soldier was. There was a "Budapesht" reference. 

I wasn't thrilled. There's only so many stunt fights and explosions and stuntpeople doing three-point landings that I can take.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 13, 2021)

embee said:


> Pretty formulaic.



I mean, it's a Marvel movie. They've made like 25 movies with the same formula now!


----------



## embee (Jul 13, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I mean, it's a Marvel movie. They've made like 25 movies with the same formula now!



I'll grant that I had a sub-optimal viewing experience. Namely, with the volume somewhat low because my kids were asleep upstairs. But I'd be like "Oh... another improbable car chase gun fight. Okay, I guess I'll pick up toys for a few minutes."

On the other hand, the Disney+ series all have engaged me and have the exact same viewing conditions. Same TV. Same volume level. Same room that needs to be cleaned. And those shows have all been engaging enough to get me to stop tidying. 

This was just a series of same fights that, based on my comic knowledge of Taskmaster, was going to culminate in an Ultimate Same Fight.

At least The Avengers had the ridiculosity of Black Widow knocking someone out with a hair flip. I can get behind that ridiculousness. 

Black Widow falls face-first into ductwork and overhangs from 50 feet up and is unscathed is the *bad* kind of ridiculous and no amount of Russian Super Serum is going to shore it up.


----------



## CapnZapp (Jul 13, 2021)

MarkB said:


> It is truly ridiculous that we didn't get either a Black Widow or a Black Widow and Hawkeye movie sometime around 5+ years ago.



I am having great trouble not falling asleep when Jeremy Renner is on screen, so...


----------



## CapnZapp (Jul 13, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> As someone who doesn't know who Taskmaster is in comics, the movie is perfectly fine. It was a good twist when revealed. The general public doesn't care if there was a mirror fight or not.



I'm the general public and I just said I cared.

So your random claim is refuted.


----------



## Janx (Jul 13, 2021)

Saw it yesterday in a theatre of 6 people counting us.  daytime, weekday first showing bonus   I prefer empty theaters for watching.

A friend pointed out that this should have come out between Avengers 3 & 4.  Perhaps sans the cut scene at the very end.  Or between winter and A3, making room for another BW scarlet film.

I would have liked to see Red Guardian do one heroic feat. Just one. (not counting escaping America).  Red Lardian was the comic relief, and he was largely useless on the quest.


----------



## Marc_C (Jul 13, 2021)

CapnZapp said:


> I'm the general public and I just said I cared.
> 
> So your random claim is refuted.



You're not general public. You're a 'geek' and a D&D player so you don't qualify.


----------



## Disgruntled Hobbit (Jul 13, 2021)

I liked it

The A-plot was adequate. But the real point of the film was family and the characters interacting, and that was excellent
Taskmaster was great for the first half. They didn't do much, but they were basically the Terminator for their scenes. Unstoppable. The Taskmaster wasn't beaten, just delayed
Making Taskmaster a minion was an odd choice. There's a superior script out there were Dreykov died and Taskmaster took over for him and was in charge of the Red Room

Hopefully this isn't the last time we see Taskmaster. They lived and can appear in a future movie. Hopefully as a member of the Dark Avengers alongside Yelena, US Agent, Abomination, and whomever else is still under contract

I enjoyed the heist movie aspect to the final act. It's great to see the heroes have a plan and for the plan to actually work


----------



## billd91 (Jul 13, 2021)

Janx said:


> I would have liked to see Red Guardian do one heroic feat. Just one. (not counting escaping America).  Red Lardian was the comic relief, and he was largely useless on the quest.



From a superhero fight standpoint, sure, he was largely comic - but then, he had been wasted in prison for 20 odd years, so what would you expect? He's not exactly in his prime. 
But being a super soldier isn't his role in the movie. He fits a different narrative role, even if it is still somewhat comedic thanks to being so anachronistic.

I was amused by the reference to Ursa Major.


----------



## trappedslider (Jul 13, 2021)

I knew about Taskmaster being able to copy based on just watching others fight from his comics including the time he got beat by deadpool who did the macarena. I was pleasantly surprised by the twist of how they did taskmaster.

Yelena got 80% of the best lines imo.

EDIT: Also this is the first time i've been able to understand all of "Smells like teen spirit"


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jul 13, 2021)

MarkB said:


> It is truly ridiculous that we didn't get either a Black Widow or a Black Widow and Hawkeye movie sometime around 5+ years ago.



The prime time for it would have been just after the first Avengers movie, frankly. They barely play off eachother in between it and Endgame.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 13, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> The prime time for it would have been just after the first Avengers movie, frankly. They barely play off eachother in between it and Endgame.



They have some decent moments in Age of Ultron, and it was cool seeing nat react to his family.... aka one of the few people that actually knows.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jul 13, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> They have some decent moments in Age of Ultron, and it was cool seeing nat react to his family.... aka one of the few people that actually knows.



That’s fair.


----------



## Zaukrie (Jul 13, 2021)

Haven't seen it yet, but I agree with those saying it was a waste we didn't get 2-3 BW movies. A total waste. Looking forward to seeing this in a few weeks....


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 14, 2021)

Disgruntled Hobbit said:


> I liked it
> 
> The A-plot was adequate. But the real point of the film was family and the characters interacting, and that was excellent
> Taskmaster was great for the first half. They didn't do much, but they were basically the Terminator for their scenes. Unstoppable. The Taskmaster wasn't beaten, just delayed
> ...



I didnt mind Taskmaster being a minion to Dreykov in this movie, it was suitably Bond and now that the free widows are out there with Taskmaster in tow, they can always set up a new Red Room with Taskmaster taking on their role as assassin Trainer (so I hope they show up in Thunderbolts with that role).


----------



## CapnZapp (Jul 14, 2021)

I believe that is the last thing the newly freed girls will want to do...


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 14, 2021)

CapnZapp said:


> I believe that is the last thing the newly freed girls will want to do...



They may not have much real choice, especially in the post-Blip world the MCU will become. You've got 20 odd former brained washed elite assassins on that helicopter, are they all going to go and be pig farmers? 
and besides somebody now has to track down and deprogramme all the other Widows Dreykov had planted around the world - having the free widows network sent out to do that could be the basis of its own streaming series


----------



## CapnZapp (Jul 14, 2021)

No I get _you_ want them to keep being assassins.

It's just that you come across as not having understood the movie, since that outcome would have been everything Natasha fought against, and also pretty much the exact opposite of the film's message to girls in the audience...


----------



## hopeless (Jul 14, 2021)

Is there any truth to the rumor the actor playing Mason was supposed to be the Taskmaster and they changed it despite it not working properly given her head being cg'd onto the person wearing the costume not fitting properly?

Would that have worked better if they had kept Mason as Taskmaster?


----------



## billd91 (Jul 14, 2021)

hopeless said:


> Is there any truth to the rumor the actor playing Mason was supposed to be the Taskmaster and they changed it despite it not working properly given her head being cg'd onto the person wearing the costume not fitting properly?
> 
> Would that have worked better if they had kept Mason as Taskmaster?



No idea if there's any truth to the rumors, but as far as whether or not it would have worked better to have Mason be the Taskmaster? I'm going with No. It's better for Natasha to have some reliable contacts out there that she can actually depend on without all/most of them turning out to be an inevitable betrayal.


----------



## hopeless (Jul 14, 2021)

billd91 said:


> No idea if there's any truth to the rumors, but as far as whether or not it would have worked better to have Mason be the Taskmaster? I'm going with No. It's better for Natasha to have some reliable contacts out there that she can actually depend on without all/most of them turning out to be an inevitable betrayal.



I actually hoped there would be a clip where she's picked up by Cap & co because Mason filled them in on what she was doing and they turned up to help only to find she had already resolved the Red Room.
Then at least we have some link between end of civil war this movie and where they start in Infinity Wars.


----------



## billd91 (Jul 14, 2021)

hopeless said:


> Then at least we have some link between end of civil war this movie and where they start in Infinity Wars.



?
We do have that link. It's just not a link that involved the appearance of any other character. But Natasha has the hair, the vest, and gets the jet to set off on the task of picking up her friends as she moves on to the Infinity Wars. Do we need any more of a link?


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 14, 2021)

hopeless said:


> Is there any truth to the rumor the actor playing Mason was supposed to be the Taskmaster and they changed it despite it not working properly given her head being cg'd onto the person wearing the costume not fitting properly?
> 
> Would that have worked better if they had kept Mason as Taskmaster?



No, when O-T was cast people assumed he was going to be Taskmaster because Taskmaster is male in the comics and the suit design had chestplates and shoulders that for a male profile.  I think that was a deliberate red herring from Marvel., especially as during the trailer they never revealed who was under the helmet.
I do wonder about who the stunt double was in Taskmasters action scenes though and if Kurylenko could effectively portray the physical prowess of the character. My issue with Taskmaster was putting a chip in her head to make her a terminator rather than a tactical genius with photographic reflexes.




CapnZapp said:


> No I get _you_ want them to keep being assassins.
> 
> It's just that you come across as not having understood the movie, since that outcome would have been everything Natasha fought against, and also pretty much the exact opposite of the film's message to girls in the audience...




so the message wasnt that little girls can go west and become Avengers?


----------



## hopeless (Jul 14, 2021)

Given the presence of Red Guardian and the plot behind Falcon and the Winter Soldier what stopped them revealing Taskmaster was a recipient of the Russian Super Soldier Serum to explain away this?


----------



## DrunkonDuty (Jul 15, 2021)

Freeing the other Widows was certainly set up as being a goal. We can assume that at least some of the Widows would contribute to that. 



Spoiler: Spoiler



Yelena at least continues to work as an assassin (we all stayed for the post credits scene right?)



But the message of the movie is "you do you" so presumably some of the Widows did go off to find their own way in the world. Pig farmer. International Super Model. Translator (I assume all of them spoke multiple languages.) Stunt Woman. IT support. Tour Guide.


----------



## hopeless (Jul 15, 2021)

A reformed red room or Serpent Society?
Good God was I the only one to assume we're witnessing the birth of a supervillain team?



Spoiler



And I don't mean the Thunderbolts!


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 15, 2021)

That would be cool too, but the MCU is a Disney porduct and its already pretty clear that Yelena is joining the new Avengers team. I think Yelena will continue to have contact with the widows and Taskmaster and they will be protrayed as shadowy anti-heroes rather than as supervillains.


----------



## pukunui (Jul 15, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> That would be cool too, but the MCU is a Disney porduct and its already pretty clear that Yelena is joining the new Avengers team. I think Yelena will continue to have contact with the widows and Taskmaster and they will be protrayed as shadowy anti-heroes rather than as supervillains.



But she works for the contessa, who is described as the MCU's new villain everywhere I've looked on the net. It seems like Yelena and John Walker will be part of some new Avengers-like anti-hero group. Maybe not villains, as such. Maybe more like the MCU version of the Suicide Squad? I dunno.


----------



## hopeless (Jul 15, 2021)

pukunui said:


> But she works for the contessa, who is described as the MCU's new villain everywhere I've looked on the net. It seems like Yelena and John Walker will be part of some new Avengers-like anti-hero group. Maybe not villains, as such. Maybe more like the MCU version of the Suicide Squad? I dunno.



Yes the Thunderbolts I believe, it's the other widows I was thinking about.
But if that character who recruited them is going to become Madame Hydra however...
Please note not a spoiler just gossip so it just highlights something else Marvel needs to pay attention to.


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 15, 2021)

pukunui said:


> But she works for the contessa, who is described as the MCU's new villain everywhere I've looked on the net. It seems like Yelena and John Walker will be part of some new Avengers-like anti-hero group. Maybe not villains, as such. Maybe more like the MCU version of the Suicide Squad? I dunno.



US Agent is first a Government appointee to monitor the West Coast Avengers (where he gets into conflict with Hawkeye) and later becomes leader of the Dark Avengers. Yelena would fit that profile too - the situation with Sharon Carter and the Contessa seems to indicate that the MCU avengers are taking a turn to the more shady path


----------



## hopeless (Jul 15, 2021)

No Norman Osborn?


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 15, 2021)

hopeless said:


> No Norman Osborn?



He hasnt been introduced to the MCU yet, Im guessing he’s tied up with the Spiderman rights


----------



## hopeless (Jul 15, 2021)

Beetle is another such character, how about Atlas I'm sorry the Giant Man villain?


----------



## Dire Bare (Jul 16, 2021)

CapnZapp said:


> No I get _you_ want them to keep being assassins.
> 
> It's just that you come across as not having understood the movie, since that outcome would have been everything Natasha fought against, and also pretty much the exact opposite of the film's message to girls in the audience...



Some of the widows will likely continue in the assassination business, others won't. The overall point was returning their free will, and folks can use that for good or ill.

I can see a former-widow spy agency that has the focus of tracking down and freeing the still controlled widows, and taking on other jobs to pay the bills, even the occasional assassination. They could be portrayed as good-guy-spies who occasionally have to stray into darkness, or a more straight up morally grey organization . . .

Of course, there's no guarantee we'll see any of the widows again, other than Yelena.


----------



## Dire Bare (Jul 16, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> Villain is…forgettable (aka fine for marvel movies).



Yeah, Drakov is a pretty standard-template evil spy boss villain. Ray Winstone did a good job with him, but he was pretty forgettable.

But the villain wasn't the focus of the movie. The movie was about Natasha finding family and purpose, and succeeded on that front. For me at least.

Really enjoyed the film today!

However, I popped an extra $4 for the ScreenX version . . . don't waste your money.


----------



## Imaculata (Jul 18, 2021)

I enjoyed the movie, but it is a shame the more down to earth spy thriller stuff established early on in the film, is replaced by ludicrous sky base stuff later on. It feels as if they came up with the giant cgi climax first, and then wrote a better movie around it. The two elements feel disconnected.

The best parts of the movie are the scenes with Nat's disfunctional family. Taskmaster is such a waste though. I don't mind them making changes to a character in the MCU, but comics Taskmaster is so much cooler.

Did anyone else feel like the 'comedy' during the end credits scene was a bit inappropriate?


----------



## pukunui (Jul 18, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> Did anyone else feel like the 'comedy' during the end credits scene was a bit inappropriate?



Inappropriate in what way? Because they're in a cemetery? If anything, I think it hints at / reinforces that the contessa is a villain. She clearly doesn't respect Yelena's boundaries.


----------



## hopeless (Jul 18, 2021)

I got the impression they're trying to do a reverse Nick Fury credit sequence establishing the Thunderbolts.


----------



## Dire Bare (Jul 18, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> I enjoyed the movie, but it is a shame the more down to earth spy thriller stuff established early on in the film, is replaced by ludicrous sky base stuff later on. It feels as if they came up with the giant cgi climax first, and then wrote a better movie around it. The two elements feel disconnected.



Have you seen the James Bond films? Everything before the Daniel Craig era was just as over-the-top as Black Widow, just minus modern special effects.


----------



## Henry (Jul 18, 2021)

RangerWickett said:


> Ideally this would have been filmed years ago and released a few months after Winter Soldier. Then Black Widow 2 could have come out at some point, with an adventure involving Nat, Steve, and Sam on the run. And then we could have released the 2021 Black Widow 3 that takes place during the blip. The first one can be this action movie with some spy stuff, the second one could be a big espionage thriller, and the third could, I dunno, involve holding society together after the blip, and stopping some fascist from taking over in the chaos.



I’ve said it once before, IMO you’d make a Hell of a good Hollywood script doctor.


----------



## hopeless (Jul 18, 2021)

Henry said:


> I’ve said it once before, IMO you’d make a Hell of a good Hollywood script doctor.



Personally they're also right.
They've killed off Tony Stark, Cap has returned having lived all those years he spent returning to his past, Thor is out there travelling to recover from the massive losses as seen in Infinity Wars so what does that leave us?

Shang-Chi introduces the Mandarin an Iron Man villain, but he's dead I hear you say well make a movie set between Iron Man 1 and 2 or after 3 and use him in that movie!

Same goes for Black Widow, the character is dead in the present, but not the past!

What's stopping them from making such a movie in the near future but set before her death in Endgame?

There's nothing as far as I can see unless they think building the Thunderbolts the same way they built the Avengers will make them as much money.

Will it?


----------



## Imaculata (Jul 18, 2021)

Dire Bare said:


> Have you seen the James Bond films? Everything before the Daniel Craig era was just as over-the-top as Black Widow, just minus modern special effects.



But James Bond was consistently absurd from start to finish. Black Widow feels like a grounded Marvel film at first, but the third act feels like an unwelcome intrusion by a different writer.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 18, 2021)

Dire Bare said:


> Have you seen the James Bond films? Everything before the Daniel Craig era was just as over-the-top as Black Widow, just minus modern special effects.



Nah. Bond never exhibits superhuman durability like Black Widow (he would survive falls like that through luck, landing on a hay-filled trailer or something, rather than bounce off a few metal railings, and then stand up again), and nothing even comes close to that final aerial showdown.


----------



## MarkB (Jul 18, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Nah. Bond never exhibits superhuman durability like Black Widow (he would survive falls like that through luck, landing on a hay-filled trailer or something, rather than bounce off a few metal railings, and then stand up again), and nothing even comes close to that final aerial showdown.



Pre-Daniel Craig Bond would get by on luck, but Daniel Craig regularly goes through some seriously bone-crunching action sequences.


----------



## hopeless (Jul 18, 2021)

In Casino Royale he went through the literal wringer!
It sounded like they should have revealed she carried some SHIELD tech that allowed her to slow her fall like some one use glider or force field projector so when she landed it drops to the ground expended and she's just winded instead of seriously hurt?


----------



## Morrus (Jul 18, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Pre-Daniel Craig Bond would get by on luck, but Daniel Craig regularly goes through some seriously bone-crunching action sequences.



Not even close to the feats in Black Widow though. The one might be a similar car crash — which put Bond out of action, but Widow climbed out and fought a supervillain.


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 18, 2021)

hopeless said:


> Personally they're also right.
> They've killed off Tony Stark, Cap has returned having lived all those years he spent returning to his past, Thor is out there travelling to recover from the massive losses as seen in Infinity Wars so what does that leave us?
> 
> Shang-Chi introduces the Mandarin an Iron Man villain, but he's dead I hear you say well make a movie set between Iron Man 1 and 2 or after 3 and use him in that movie!
> ...



they dont even need time travel now, the multiverse allows them to have versions of the timeline where Stark or Black widow didnt die at all. If you've seen the What If ... trailers then we've already seen a non-Cap Variant of Steve Rogers.

However having Tony Stark back for another Iron Man movie would be bad form, it cheapens the impact of death in the MCU story arc.

Thunderbolts probably wont have the same cashcow potential as the Avengers but then I dont think Marvel will drop the Avengers anyway. The existence of the Spiderman movies has already proven that audiences can handle multiple teams and  a new Avengers team is already being introduced alongside the Thunderbolts team,not to mention the promise of Fantastic 4 at the end of this new phase. As long as audiences keep buying its guaranteed that Disney will keep churning out product


----------



## Maxperson (Jul 18, 2021)

MarkB said:


> To be fair, we did get a very good mirror fight, it just didn't feature Taskmaster. The fight between Natasha and Yelena in *Budapest* was very well done.



Budapesht.


----------



## Maxperson (Jul 18, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Yeah someone on the team must actually think Thanos plan makes sense, because the film plays it as something that would work, but at an unacceptable cost.



And a complete lack of thought.  If he lowered birthrates for a while, he could have brought the universe to half population without killing anyone.  Or he could have used the gauntlet to create more resources, so the universe never runs out.  His plan doesn't play as something that works at all.


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 18, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> Budapesht.




Budapescht (don't forget the c )


----------



## Morrus (Jul 18, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> And a complete lack of thought.  If he lowered birthrates for a while, he could have brought the universe to half population without killing anyone.  Or he could have used the gauntlet to create more resources, so the universe never runs out.  His plan doesn't play as something that works at all.



Well, he is called the *Mad* Titan.


----------



## MarkB (Jul 18, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> Budapesht.



You and I remember Budapest very differently.


----------



## Maxperson (Jul 18, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Well, he is called the *Mad* Titan.



Yes, but as @Umbran pointed out, they really didn't do anything other than the plan that showed that.  He seemed very rational, if fanatic, but not insane.


----------



## RangerWickett (Jul 18, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> His plan doesn't play as something that works at all.




I just wish someone had spoken up and said so in the movie. Have Starlord get a confused look on his face, and Spidey says, "How does halving people _and_ resources do anything? I- I could get you a book by this guy Malthus-," and Tony'd go, "This isn't debate club," and then he'd shoot something at Thanos.


----------



## Maxperson (Jul 18, 2021)

billd91 said:


> From a superhero fight standpoint, sure, he was largely comic - but then, he had been wasted in prison for 20 odd years, so what would you expect? He's not exactly in his prime.
> But being a super soldier isn't his role in the movie. He fits a different narrative role, even if it is still somewhat comedic thanks to being so anachronistic.
> 
> *I was amused by the reference to Ursa Major.*



And the Crimson Dynamo.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 18, 2021)

RangerWickett said:


> I just wish someone had spoken up and said so in the movie. Have Starlord get a confused look on his face, and Spidey says, "How does halving people _and_ resources do anything? I- I could get you a book by this guy Malthus-," and Tony'd go, "This isn't debate club," and then he'd shoot something at Thanos.



Star Lord is an idiot. But Spidey maybe.

But the main argument isn’t that resources were halved. It’s that population doubles every 50 years (insofar as we know Earth’s population was 3.5B in 1970 and it’s 7B now). So his solution merely delays the problem by 50 years.


----------



## RangerWickett (Jul 18, 2021)

The evidence of announced movies, and a few spoilers, come together for me to expect Marvel to build a Young Avengers, and for the Thunderbolts to show up as a group of antagonists in 2024, for Skrulls to do some invading maybe at the end of phase five in 2027, and then time travel multiverse Kang stuff to require a mega ultra crossover in 2030 that will result in the reboot of the MCU and Kevin Feige's retirement.


----------



## MarkB (Jul 18, 2021)

RangerWickett said:


> I just wish someone had spoken up and said so in the movie. Have Starlord get a confused look on his face, and Spidey says, "How does halving people _and_ resources do anything? I- I could get you a book by this guy Malthus-," and Tony'd go, "This isn't debate club," and then he'd shoot something at Thanos.



Yeah, there's a certain glossing-over of things like this in a few of the Marvel movies. I particularly wanted someone to call Tony Stark on his "hey look, a convenient way to not have to take moral responsibility for my actions" BS on the Serkovia accords in Civil War.

Made worse by him inducting Peter "Great Responsibility" Parker to fight on his side.


----------



## Maxperson (Jul 18, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Star Lord is an idiot. But Spidey maybe.
> 
> But the main argument isn’t that resources were halved. It’s that population doubles every 50 years (insofar as we know Earth’s population was 3.5B in 1970 and it’s 7B now). So his solution merely delays the problem by 50 years.



Right, and if even Star Lord could see the flaw...


----------



## Maxperson (Jul 18, 2021)

Did I miss something in Black Widow?  I thought at the very beginning of the movie she left her transmitter with her clothing for the General and his men to find, yet at the end she activates the transmitter.


----------



## MarkB (Jul 18, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> Did I miss something in Black Widow?  I thought at the very beginning of the movie she left her transmitter with her clothing for the General and his men to find, yet at the end she activates the transmitter.



Fair point. Maybe she kept a note of the frequency.


----------



## HawaiiSteveO (Jul 18, 2021)

I really liked it, hadn’t heard / seen much about it before I went in and was pleasantly surprised .

This is still funny though …

If 'Black Widow' Were 10 Times Shorter And 100 Times More Honest


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jul 18, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> And a complete lack of thought.  If he lowered birthrates for a while, he could have brought the universe to half population without killing anyone.  Or he could have used the gauntlet to create more resources, so the universe never runs out.  His plan doesn't play as something that works at all.



Yeah it’s just a really foolish plan.


----------



## Dire Bare (Jul 18, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Nah. Bond never exhibits superhuman durability like Black Widow (he would survive falls like that through luck, landing on a hay-filled trailer or something, rather than bounce off a few metal railings, and then stand up again), and nothing even comes close to that final aerial showdown.



Heh, yeah. I was referring to the over-the-top action in the final act. Not so much Natasha's ability to come down HARD and walk away still breathing. That was certainly noticeable, but (IMO) stretching credulity by degree, not in kind for an action film. They should have toned that down, or been more obvious with the _maybe Natasha is super soldier lite_ . . .


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 19, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Fair point. Maybe she kept a note of the frequency.



Always have a contigency plan!


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 19, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> And a complete lack of thought.  If he lowered birthrates for a while, he could have brought the universe to half population without killing anyone.  Or he could have used the gauntlet to create more resources, so the universe never runs out.  His plan doesn't play as something that works at all.



Or the best version of all,

adjust sentient intellect thst once they hit a certain population point their mentality changes towards a model of stability, and physically their birthrate naturally drops…but these changes are removed in their is a major population drop.

aka make sentient creatures better self regulate themselves


----------



## CapnZapp (Jul 19, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> Or the best version of all,
> 
> adjust sentient intellect thst once they hit a certain population point their mentality changes towards a model of stability, and physically their birthrate naturally drops…but these changes are removed in their is a major population drop.
> 
> aka make sentient creatures better self regulate themselves



I don't think the Infinity Stones would have interpreted and executed that order correctly.

Safer to keep things simple.


----------



## CapnZapp (Jul 19, 2021)

HawaiiSteveO said:


> I really liked it, hadn’t heard / seen much about it before I went in and was pleasantly surprised .
> 
> This is still funny though …
> 
> If 'Black Widow' Were 10 Times Shorter And 100 Times More Honest



It contained stupendous dumbness fo sho but all MCU movies do.


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 19, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> Or the best version of all,
> 
> adjust sentient intellect thst once they hit a certain population point their mentality changes towards a model of stability, and physically their birthrate naturally drops…but these changes are removed in their is a major population drop.
> 
> aka make sentient creatures better self regulate themselves




I dont think Thanos ever took time to consider population psychology when he decided to kill half the universe as a sustainable conservation measure.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 19, 2021)

CapnZapp said:


> I don't think the Infinity Stones would have interpreted and executed that order correctly.
> 
> Safer to keep things simple.



It’s a magic genie wishing stone, that includes the mind stone which is basically a complex AI computer.

I mean if you are literally committing your whole life towards the goal of balancing all life in the universe…thst is one of the few ways to do it. Doubling resources or killing half of life only buys you a paltry sum of years. Continuous doubling means you will run out of space in the universe (if you think that’s crazy you underestimate the sheer power of exponential growth), and if you just kept growing the universe to compensate than interstellar travel will break down.

The absolute best and most efficient method is to rewire life to better balance itself.


----------



## billd91 (Jul 19, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> It’s a magic genie wishing stone, that includes the mind stone which is basically a complex AI computer.
> 
> I mean if you are literally committing your whole life towards the goal of balancing all life in the universe…thst is one of the few ways to do it. Doubling resources or killing half of life only buys you a paltry sum of years. Continuous doubling means you will run out of space in the universe (if you think that’s crazy you underestimate the sheer power of exponential growth), and if you just kept growing the universe to compensate than interstellar travel will break down.
> 
> The absolute best and most efficient method is to rewire life to better balance itself.



A better alternative might be to base Thanos's motivation on his love of Death as they did in the comics. That's pretty dark, though.


----------



## hopeless (Jul 19, 2021)

billd91 said:


> A better alternative might be to base Thanos's motivation on his love of Death as they did in the comics. That's pretty dark, though.



Which was the point of that story another case where their change to the original storyline really doesn't work.


----------



## Janx (Jul 19, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> I dont think Thanos ever took time to consider population psychology when he decided to kill half the universe as a sustainable conservation measure.



no, I don't think he did.

I don't think he even understood the problem.  There's only so much matter in the universe, and only so much of that is the right kind to be food or people. There's a built in limit.  The reason people were suffering was cuz people like him had all the wealth as evidenced by their massive armies and war machines being used to inflict his will on people.  Maybe if he'd have spent that time helping folks...


----------



## pukunui (Jul 19, 2021)

Going back to _Black Widow_, something that's been bothering me a little bit is the portrayal of Nat and Yelena's theft of that family's car as no big deal. The movie makes a point of showing us that the shop owner has a) a fancy car and b) a wife and kids. Then Nat says she knows where the keys are, and the next thing we know, they're driving off in the poor guy's sports car.

Perhaps Nat made arrangements for the car to be returned to him when she was finished with it, but that wasn't shown on-screen. It's not so much that I feel it's out of character for her or anything. It's more that the movie itself presents this theft as just a means of moving the plot forward.

This isn't a huge thing for me. Just something I've been mulling over periodically ever since seeing the movie.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 19, 2021)

Janx said:


> no, I don't think he did.
> 
> I don't think he even understood the problem.  There's only so much matter in the universe, and only so much of that is the right kind to be food or people. There's a built in limit.  The reason people were suffering was cuz people like him had all the wealth as evidenced by their massive armies and war machines being used to inflict his will on people.  Maybe if he'd have spent that time helping folks...



It's an interesting question. Does Thanos pay his armies? Do they maybe get a 'get out of jail free' card when he clicks his fingers?


----------



## MarkB (Jul 19, 2021)

pukunui said:


> Going back to _Black Widow_, something that's been bothering me a little bit is the portrayal of Nat and Yelena's theft of that family's car as no big deal. The movie makes a point of showing us that the shop owner has a) a fancy car and b) a wife and kids.



And, presumably, c) insurance. I think she can live with him having to deal with higher premiums for awhile.


----------



## pukunui (Jul 19, 2021)

MarkB said:


> And, presumably, c) insurance. I think she can live with him having to deal with higher premiums for awhile.



Maybe. But that's not the point I was trying to make.


----------



## MarkB (Jul 19, 2021)

pukunui said:


> Maybe. But that's not the point I was trying to make.



Then consider me to have missed it. Honestly, I don't even recall any details of the scene in question, but people in espionage movies stealing transportation in a pinch seems like a standard trope.


----------



## trappedslider (Jul 19, 2021)

"What? You want me to go back and unsteal it?"


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 19, 2021)

pukunui said:


> Going back to _Black Widow_, something that's been bothering me a little bit is the portrayal of Nat and Yelena's theft of that family's car as no big deal. The movie makes a point of showing us that the shop owner has a) a fancy car and b) a wife and kids. Then Nat says she knows where the keys are, and the next thing we know, they're driving off in the poor guy's sports car.
> 
> Perhaps Nat made arrangements for the car to be returned to him when she was finished with it, but that wasn't shown on-screen. It's not so much that I feel it's out of character for her or anything. It's more that the movie itself presents this theft as just a means of moving the plot forward.
> 
> This isn't a huge thing for me. Just something I've been mulling over periodically ever since seeing the movie.



Right up there with every D&D adventuring party that ever stole their first horses, without considering the ramifications to the victims.


----------



## pukunui (Jul 19, 2021)

Yeah, see, the scene where they steal that businessman's SUV doesn't bother me. 

I think the reason their theft of the sports car bothers me is because the movie made a point to show that the owner is a family man. If they hadn't shown the scenes where the man embraces his wife and kids as he shuts up shop for the day, I don't think I would've given it any more thought than I did their earlier theft of the businessman's SUV.

So, I guess, as a family man myself, I'm just feeling particularly sensitive to that kind of thing. I feel bad for him that Nat and Yelena stole his car.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 19, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> Right up there with every D&D adventuring party that ever stole their first horses, without considering the ramifications to the victims.



Well of course, consequences is why we invented dms


----------



## Janx (Jul 20, 2021)

Morrus said:


> It's an interesting question. Does Thanos pay his armies? Do they maybe get a 'get out of jail free' card when he clicks his fingers?



another good question. Can you imagine fighting for Thanos thinking "yeah, this is gonna rock!" and then snap and oh crap, half the people on my team disappeared, too. I suppose there's art imitating life there as well.


----------



## CapnZapp (Jul 20, 2021)

Of course, we aren't really discussing Natashas decision to steal the car.

We're discussing the lazy sloppy decision _of the writers_ who clearly thought nothing about the ramifications. It was just a trope to them.


----------



## Janx (Jul 20, 2021)

MarkB said:


> And, presumably, c) insurance. I think she can live with him having to deal with higher premiums for awhile.



dude. when has insurance EVER put a man back to where he was?

Never.  They will screw him down to a low pay out and he'll be in a Geo Metro because that's all he can afford with the payout.

That is P's point.  She didn't pick a prick to rob. She picked a good family man who has a nice car.  She didn't leave him a fat stack of bills. She didn't take a less nice car or find a jerk to rob.

That makes her the bad guy.


----------



## pukunui (Jul 20, 2021)

Janx said:


> dude. when has insurance EVER put a man back to where he was?
> 
> Never.  They will screw him down to a low pay out and he'll be in a Geo Metro because that's all he can afford with the payout.
> 
> ...



That's all part of it, yes.

The other part is that, prior to that, when they steal a businessman's SUV, Nat specifically says "You can't just steal a guy's car", to which Yelena responds, "So you want me to chase him down and un-steal it?". This sets Nat up as someone who doesn't appear to approve of random car theft.

Yet, a short time later, Nat seems to have no objections to stealing a fancy sports car. Not only that, but the movie specifically shows us that the car's owner has a family with young kids.

As I said previously, I don't think I would have batted an eye at the car theft if the movie had _not_ set its owner up as a family man. Why did the filmmakers set it up that way? Why include the touching scene where the man embraces his wife and kids as he's closing up his shop for the day?

(EDIT: FYI I can find the scene where they steal the businessman's SUV on YouTube, which is how I was able to verify the dialogue, but I can't find the other scene where they steal the sports car, so I can't confirm that I am remembering it correctly.)


----------



## billd91 (Jul 20, 2021)

The kids are there, in part, as a contrast to the infodump Yelena is giving about the Red Room and the number of kids it kills. She and Nat are discussing the destruction of girls and young women in a brutal program while kids are playing blissfully in the background, underscoring the warped upbringing and betrayal they suffered. Stealing a nice car from the guy’s body shop (we‘re not even positive it’s his own car) is kind of small potatoes given what’s going on. It’s not liked they hijacked the family minivan.


----------



## pukunui (Jul 20, 2021)

billd91 said:


> The kids are there, in part, as a contrast to the infodump Yelena is giving about the Red Room and the number of kids it kills. She and Nat are discussing the destruction of girls and young women in a brutal program while kids are playing blissfully in the background, underscoring the warped upbringing and betrayal they suffered. Stealing a nice car from the guy’s body shop (we‘re not even positive it’s his own car) is kind of small potatoes given what’s going on. It’s not liked they hijacked the family minivan.



That's a good point. Thank you.

And you're right -- it hadn't occurred to me that it might not have even been that guy's car!


----------



## Dire Bare (Jul 20, 2021)

pukunui said:


> Going back to _Black Widow_, something that's been bothering me a little bit is the portrayal of Nat and Yelena's theft of that family's car as no big deal. The movie makes a point of showing us that the shop owner has a) a fancy car and b) a wife and kids. Then Nat says she knows where the keys are, and the next thing we know, they're driving off in the poor guy's sports car.
> 
> Perhaps Nat made arrangements for the car to be returned to him when she was finished with it, but that wasn't shown on-screen. It's not so much that I feel it's out of character for her or anything. It's more that the movie itself presents this theft as just a means of moving the plot forward.
> 
> This isn't a huge thing for me. Just something I've been mulling over periodically ever since seeing the movie.



Stealing is wrong. Stealing from a family, a WHOLESOME family . . . seems more wrong. But allowing the bad guys to win, disrupt world governments, cause death, destruction, and chaos, continue to abduct and abuse young girls . . . that's a bit worse.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 20, 2021)

pukunui said:


> Going back to _Black Widow_, something that's been bothering me a little bit is the portrayal of Nat and Yelena's theft of that family's car as no big deal. The movie makes a point of showing us that the shop owner has a) a fancy car and b) a wife and kids. Then Nat says she knows where the keys are, and the next thing we know, they're driving off in the poor guy's sports car.
> 
> Perhaps Nat made arrangements for the car to be returned to him when she was finished with it, but that wasn't shown on-screen. It's not so much that I feel it's out of character for her or anything. It's more that the movie itself presents this theft as just a means of moving the plot forward.
> 
> This isn't a huge thing for me. Just something I've been mulling over periodically ever since seeing the movie.



Definitely don't watch a James Bond film then! He does that stuff three times before breakfast!


----------



## pukunui (Jul 20, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Definitely don't watch a James Bond film then! He does that stuff three times before breakfast!



LOL. I have seen every James Bond film ever made, and I can't recall any specific instances of him ever stealing a car from a family.

Anyway, my mind is at peace now, thanks to @billd91 and @Dire Bare.


----------



## Janx (Jul 21, 2021)

pukunui said:


> That's a good point. Thank you.
> 
> And you're right -- it hadn't occurred to me that it might not have even been that guy's car!



that would make it worse, actually. As a small shop, without even multiple bays and doors, you know this is bare bones. Stealing a car from the small mechanic means he's gonna be liable to the car owner, who might be finger breaky.

Still not cool.  Heroes stealing from jerks or unseen owners is socially acceptable.  Showing the victim to be likeable, is punching down, and that's bad.

They may have had a reason for showing the family during the talk, but like all choices, there are unintended consequences.  Here, it's raising the jerk level of Nat and Brat. Their ledger has some brown in it, now.


----------



## Imaculata (Jul 21, 2021)

They are trained assassins. Stealing a car is rather insignificant when considering they kill people.

And while Nat is now an Avenger, and 'one of the good guys', she is also on the run and wanted for breach of the Sokovia Accords at this point in the MCU.


----------



## Maxperson (Jul 21, 2021)

billd91 said:


> A better alternative might be to base Thanos's motivation on his love of Death as they did in the comics. That's pretty dark, though.



What?! And have Disney miss the opportunity to preach to us about the real world evil of population increases and consumption of resources?


----------



## S'mon (Jul 21, 2021)

I went with my son. He seemed to enjoy, but I found it pretty dreary at least the last half. The villain was pathetic, his lair was too silly, and there was no exploration of the Red Room.


----------



## Imaculata (Jul 21, 2021)

I can imagine an alternative finale for Black Widow, where instead of breaking into a ludicrous sky fortress, she instead has to sneak into an underground facility Mission Impossible-style. I would have liked to see some heist shennanigans; deadly traps, security measures, gadgets. They could have gone all out with this. 

But it seems they had only one idea: Black Widow sliding down the side of a crashing fortress. It was all over every trailer for this movie. It felt like they had this sequence finished before they had shot a single scene, or written any story.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 21, 2021)

So reading the latest reports, seems that while the movie had a very good opening weekend it’s dropped heavily in the second, and based on new predictions it will be in “captain America: first avenger” numbers. Still a financial success of course but not a great success by modern marvel standards.

though that may be less a dig at the movie itself and more on the “theater + streaming” simultaneous release model. Black widow + the next series of movies this year may determine if that model will remain or if they will return to “theater first” once more


----------



## CapnZapp (Jul 21, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> Still a financial success of course but not a great success by modern marvel standards.



This reads as if they're comparing the movie to pre-covid numbers. But they are surely not, because that would be insane.

Can it be theatre owners grasping at straws trying to argue we need to return to the old model?

I'm reminded of the county(?) that proscribed every newfangled "automobile" needed a man with a red flag walking ahead, you know as a reasonable safety precaution that totally wasn't intended to protect the interests of horse carriage shops...


----------



## hopeless (Jul 21, 2021)

In a few months time subscriber's of Disney+ won't even have to pay for premium access to watch this movie so why would anyone go to the cinema to watch this movie then?

No wonder they're pissed!


----------



## billd91 (Jul 21, 2021)

hopeless said:


> In a few months time subscriber's of Disney+ won't even have to pay for premium access to watch this movie so why would anyone go to the cinema to watch this movie then?
> 
> No wonder they're pissed!



Offering it on streaming now is Disney hedging their bets in case of people being skittish about returning to theaters. The box office numbers may have dropped, but we don’t know what effect it has had on Disney+ viewing. Only Disney knows that.


----------



## Nikosandros (Jul 21, 2021)

hopeless said:


> In a few months time subscriber's of Disney+ won't even have to pay for premium access to watch this movie so why would anyone go to the cinema to watch this movie then?
> 
> No wonder they're pissed!



I have Disney+, but I went to see Black Widow to the cinema. In the same vein, I went to see Nomadland and that movie is available without paying premium access. Personally, I enjoy much more seeing movies in the theaters than at home.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 21, 2021)

hopeless said:


> In a few months time subscriber's of Disney+ won't even have to pay for premium access to watch this movie so why would anyone go to the cinema to watch this movie then?
> 
> No wonder they're pissed!



According to their research, there are a good portion of people that would pay to watch something when it comes out, even if it’s freely offered later.

further, putting it on streaming early increases piracy and the amount of people that would see it through shared passwords and large viewings (aka one person buys it and several people watch it)

now BW is one datapoint, the movies that continue to come out this year will ultimately shake their viewpoint on the best model going toward.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 21, 2021)

hopeless said:


> In a few months time subscriber's of Disney+ won't even have to pay for premium access to watch this movie so why would anyone go to the cinema to watch this movie then?



I neither went to the cinema, nor am I waiting for it to be free. I paid for it on Disney+. It was £19.99, which is much less than it would cost the three of us who watched it to go to the cinema.


----------



## billd91 (Jul 21, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I neither went to the cinema, nor am I waiting for it to be free. I paid for it on Disney+. It was £19.99, which is much less than it would cost the three of us who watched it to go to the cinema.



Yeah, $30 for us is less than a family of 4 going to see it too. Even so, my son did go to the theater to see it, but it was also as a first date actually out of the house so kind of a special occasion.


----------



## GreyLord (Jul 22, 2021)

I have Disney+, I went and saw this in the theater (as I am vaccinated and who knows how long until the Delta variant makes us all want to isolate and avoid each other again...so took the opportunity while I can...went to a matinee showing which has less people in the theater though to avoid mass crowds still).

I'm not sure streaming is the answer to making the money back that they would have if it was theater only though...as long as it is SAFE for some people to go to the theater in the first place.


----------



## billd91 (Jul 26, 2021)

You ever notice that people in these threads wag their fingers at the things Black Widow and the Scarlet Witch do in their own movies/TV series, but other characters like Tony Stark aren't taken to task for getting into big, reckless urban fights that put significantly more people at risk?

I wonder what that's about...


----------



## Imaculata (Jul 26, 2021)

In all fairness, the Ironman movies already address Tony's reckless behavior themselves. It is pretty much the focus of the movies.


----------



## DrunkonDuty (Jul 26, 2021)

billd91 said:


> You ever notice that people in these threads wag their fingers at the things Black Widow and the Scarlet Witch do in their own movies/TV series, but other characters like Tony Stark aren't taken to task for getting into big, reckless urban fights that put significantly more people at risk?
> 
> I wonder what that's about...




Yes. Yes I have.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 26, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> In all fairness, the Ironman movies already address Tony's reckless behavior themselves. It is pretty much the focus of the movies.



Indeed, especially in the first one when the movie goes out of its way to acknowledge what a jerk stark is. Hell even as late as Spider-Man: far from home, the villain is generated as a result of Tony has been in the past.

contrast that with Scarlet Witch in wandavision. She holds an entire town hostage, and exposes them to effectively torture (as confirmed with Monica rambeau’s report). And yet Monica goes out of her way to defend Wanda from Sword and even defends Wanda to the town, saying “they don’t know what you have been through”

At no point does Wanda suffer consequences for her actions, nor does she really show remorse for what she did.

Black Widow is similar. At no point are her criminal acts mentioned by others or put in any negative light (such as killing every single person in that prison through the avalanche), she is the protagonist and therefore all acts are justified.

now plenty of movies use that trope…but Ironman did not, hence why you see people calling it out on one and not the other


----------



## Imaculata (Jul 26, 2021)

Exactly. Further more, Tony Stark's feelings of guilt over the death of a boy he didn't even know, during Age of Ultron, is the primary reason for him signing the Sokovia accords in Captain America: Civil War. Tony Stark taking responsibility for the deaths and damage caused by the Avengers, is the central conflict of that movie.

So if it seems we never wag our fingers at Tony Stark, it is because we don't have to. The movies already do that for us. Often Tony Stark's reckless behavior is the source of the conflict in his movies; the movies portray him as a flawed character and highlight that his actions are wrong.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 26, 2021)

billd91 said:


> You ever notice that people in these threads wag their fingers at the things Black Widow and the Scarlet Witch do in their own movies/TV series, but other characters like Tony Stark aren't taken to task for getting into big, reckless urban fights that put significantly more people at risk?



No, not really. I see plenty of discussion about characters like Batman and Superman and the destruction they cause. So much, that it pretty much always takes over the conversation, especially the latter.

And Stark? Even the movies themselves take him to task for his recklessness.

There’s definitely a lot of sexism about, but I don’t think this is an example of it.


----------



## MarkB (Jul 26, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> Exactly. Further more, Tony Stark's feelings of guilt over the death of a boy he didn't even know, during Age of Ultron, is the primary reason for him signing the Sokovia accords in Captain America: Civil War. Tony Stark taking responsibility for the deaths and damage caused by the Avengers, is the central conflict of that movie.



That wasn't Stark taking responsibility. That was him wanting to hand off responsibility to a faceless organisation.

And yeah, I've commented vocally to that effect on previous threads in this forum


----------



## Maxperson (Jul 26, 2021)

billd91 said:


> You ever notice that people in these threads wag their fingers at the things Black Widow and the Scarlet Witch do in their own movies/TV series, but other characters like Tony Stark aren't taken to task for getting into big, reckless urban fights that put significantly more people at risk?
> 
> I wonder what that's about...



But, "Hulk smash!" is like really cool, so that makes it okay.


----------



## Maxperson (Jul 26, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> Indeed, especially in the first one when the movie goes out of its way to acknowledge what a jerk stark is. Hell even as late as Spider-Man: far from home, the villain is generated as a result of Tony has been in the past.
> 
> contrast that with Scarlet Witch in wandavision. She holds an entire town hostage, and exposes them to effectively torture (as confirmed with Monica rambeau’s report). And yet Monica goes out of her way to defend Wanda from Sword and even defends Wanda to the town, saying “they don’t know what you have been through”
> 
> ...



Yeah, but those guards were all bad guys, and the avalanche started very, very far away from the prison.  Unbelievably far, and noise causing an avalanche is a myth anyway, so it wasn't really her fault, but rather the fault of plot and bad writing.


----------



## Janx (Jul 26, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> But, "Hulk smash!" is like really cool, so that makes it okay.



No, Hulk is the special needs kid and you don't handle them the same way.

The rest of the team isn't normally causing massive collateral damage with their own powers.  Punching, shooting bullets and arrows hasa  limited area of effect in comparison.


----------



## Maxperson (Jul 26, 2021)

Janx said:


> No, Hulk is the special needs kid and you don't handle them the same way.
> 
> The rest of the team isn't normally causing massive collateral damage with their own powers.  Punching, shooting bullets and arrows hasa  limited area of effect in comparison.



Perhaps you didn't notice the winky face.


----------



## MarkB (Jul 26, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> Yeah, but those guards were all bad guys, and the avalanche started very, very far away from the prison.  Unbelievably far, and noise causing an avalanche is a myth anyway, so it wasn't really her fault, but rather the fault of plot and bad writing.



And also, who puts a prison right at the base of three separate mountain faces that are all prone to avalanches? That was an accident waiting to happen.


----------



## billd91 (Jul 26, 2021)

MarkB said:


> And also, who puts a prison right at the base of three separate mountain faces that are all prone to avalanches? That was an accident waiting to happen.



Soviets - worry about safety? Perish the thought.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 26, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> Yeah, but those guards were all bad guys, and the avalanche started very, very far away from the prison.  Unbelievably far, and noise causing an avalanche is a myth anyway, so it wasn't really her fault, but rather the fault of plot and bad writing.



Doesn’t matter if the writing is bad, at the end of the day they were the cause of the avalanche, thst is clearly established by the movie. The movie also chooses to ignore any consequences to the protagonist for the movie…which opens it up to nitpicks.

going back to Tony, now while I did argue that the movies at least establish some personal consequences for his actions:

1) most of them happen in later movies. So I don’t give too much guff to wandavision yet, if wanda has to pay the piper in multiverse of madness than thst works for me.

2) though tony suffered some personal grief from himself and his friends over ultron, quite frankly he suffers almost no real consequences for its creation, nor does banner. You could argue it was so unprecedented there were no laws on the books, but I can’t imagine that tony would avoid prison time completely for that, as the whole world would have been gunning for him after that


----------



## MarkB (Jul 26, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> 2) though tony suffered some personal grief from himself and his friends over ultron, quite frankly he suffers almost no real consequences for its creation, nor does banner. You could argue it was so unprecedented there were no laws on the books, but I can’t imagine that tony would avoid prison time completely for that, as the whole world would have been gunning for him after that



Even if Ultron hadn't gone rogue, he would still have been a serious violation. I doubt Tony would have sought permission from world governments to implement him - he'd have been an omnipresent security guard enforcing order across the globe, ready to step in with massive force if anyone from an individual to a nation stepped out of line.


----------



## Maxperson (Jul 29, 2021)

And now this.









						Scarlett Johansson Sues Disney Over Streaming Release of ‘Black Widow,’ Disney and Hollywood Respond
					

Johansson says she was promised an exclusive theatrical release, and by putting the movie on the streaming platform, Disney and Marvel breached her contract.




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## Imaculata (Jul 29, 2021)

Wow, they sure are dedicated to screwing over Scarlett Jo.

UPDATE:

Disney has responded, and says Scarletts claims are sad and disturbing, and that she is ignoring the devastating effects covid has had on film production. They also claim her contract did not promise her any such thing.

First of all Disney, unexpected extra production costs (covid or otherwise) are not her problem. That is the risk of running a film studio. Don't try to pull a guilt trip here. And it is not like Disney is short for cash here either. Second, it should be pretty easy to figure out what is in the contract and what is not. I highly doubt Scarlett Jo would hire a lawyer if it wasn't in her contract.

So just pay up what she is owed.


----------



## Blue (Jul 29, 2021)

Sabathius42 said:


> I have seen Avengers all the way through multiple times and bits and pieces a million times and _couldn't tell you what the bad guys names were._
> 
> You don't have to make your movie about the villain to have a good villain.  Killmonger was a good villain...plenty of screentime, an understandable goal, and interesting character interaction with the hero.  Same with *Loki*, or *Ultron*, or even Ghost.  For each one of these, though, you have 3 "guy in pale makeup who wants to kill everyone because he is mad" villains nobody remembers.



_(emphasis mine.)_

These are two amusing paragraphs next to each other, one as you say you couldn't even tell us the names of the Avengers villains, two as you not only name them but call out two of the three Avengers bad guys as "good villains".

Not really disagreeing, I was just tickled by the juxtaposition.  Marvel does need better villains.  And it can be done in a Marvel movie - in addition to the ones you mention (esp. Killmonger!), the Sony Spider-Man films in the MCU had well fleshed out villains with complex motivations.  Vulture letting Peter go because he saved his daughter's life is a great example.


----------



## Blue (Jul 29, 2021)

MarkB said:


> To be fair, we did get a very good mirror fight, it just didn't feature Taskmaster. The fight between Natasha and Yelena in Budapest was very well done.



I would have loved if the Nat/Yelena fight had Yelena pull off something really good against Nat.  And in a later Taskmaster fight Taskmaster is going Nat vs. Nat and countering everything, and Nat then pulls off the Yelena move.


----------



## Imaculata (Jul 29, 2021)

Blue said:


> I would have loved if the Nat/Yelena fight had Yelena pull off something really good against Nat.  And in a later Taskmaster fight Taskmaster is going Nat vs. Nat and countering everything, and Nat then pulls off the Yelena move.




(Meanwhile at Disney)

Wait a minute, that sounds like good plot writing to me! We don't care for that here! Jimmy, show this man the exit!

-Sure, mister Mouse sir!


----------



## Sabathius42 (Jul 30, 2021)

Blue said:


> _(emphasis mine.)_
> 
> These are two amusing paragraphs next to each other, one as you say you couldn't even tell us the names of the Avengers villains, two as you not only name them but call out two of the three Avengers bad guys as "good villains".
> 
> Not really disagreeing, I was just tickled by the juxtaposition.  Marvel does need better villains.  And it can be done in a Marvel movie - in addition to the ones you mention (esp. Killmonger!), the Sony Spider-Man films in the MCU had well fleshed out villains with complex motivations.  Vulture letting Peter go because he saved his daughter's life is a great example.



So I looked up the wiki entry for The Avengers.  Apparently the bad guy was named "The Other" and the generic alien bad guys were the Chitauri.  If either of these names is said in the film I do not recall when.


----------



## Blue (Jul 30, 2021)

Sabathius42 said:


> So I looked up the wiki entry for The Avengers.  Apparently the bad guy was named "The Other" and the generic alien bad guys were the Chitauri.  If either of these names is said in the film I do not recall when.



The Chitauri weren't the villain, Loki was.  He was the focus the entire time, from mind controlling Barton onward.  The Chitauri were just muscle that showed up at the end.  The other was one giving Loki orders, but also not the main villain - he's barely in it, never interacted with the heroes, and didn't need to be defeated to win.

Loki, Ultron, and Thanos were the villains of the four Avengers movies.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 30, 2021)

Sabathius42 said:


> So I looked up the wiki entry for The Avengers.  Apparently the bad guy was named "The Other" and the generic alien bad guys were the Chitauri.  If either of these names is said in the film I do not recall when.



The Chitauri were mentioned. The Other wasn't.


----------



## Deset Gled (Jul 30, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> So just pay up what she is owed.




It seems like Disney sometimes just decides not to pay people, and by and large gets away with it.  It's just like the Alan Dean Foster issue. 

Many legal issues are murky.  There's a lot of gray areas, and small details that can make a lot of difference.  And I will admit that I haven't read that actual contract involved.  But I find it really, really hard to believe that this exact situation (theatrical vs. non-theatrical release) isn't spelled out pretty clearly in the contract.  Hollywood contracts are notoriously long and arduous exactly because they spell out all this stuff down to a very, very fine point.

I'm disappointed in both the legal system and the various Guilds for not going after Disney harder on these things.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 30, 2021)

Deset Gled said:


> It seems like Disney sometimes just decides not to pay people, and by and large gets away with it.  It's just like the Alan Dean Foster issue.
> 
> Many legal issues are murky.  There's a lot of gray areas, and small details that can make a lot of difference.  And I will admit that I haven't read that actual contract involved.  But I find it really, really hard to believe that this exact situation (theatrical vs. non-theatrical release) isn't spelled out pretty clearly in the contract.  Hollywood contracts are notoriously long and arduous exactly because they spell out all this stuff down to a very, very fine point.
> 
> I'm disappointed in both the legal system and the various Guilds for not going after Disney harder on these things.



In any industry your largest, highest paying employer tends to get to skate on a lot of things. Even with the unions.


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 31, 2021)

Deset Gled said:


> And I will admit that I haven't read that actual contract involved.  But I find it really, really hard to believe that this exact situation (theatrical vs. non-theatrical release) isn't spelled out pretty clearly in the contract.  Hollywood contracts are notoriously long and arduous exactly because they spell out all this stuff down to a very, very fine point.
> .



From what I understand it is spelled out in the contract and essentuially says that she will gain additional bonuses based on Box office takings. Her argument is that because of the simultaneous streaming release the box office takings will be significantly smaller than they should of been and thus she loses $50 mil. 
The court needs to determine if Streaming release has reduced Box office numbers, and if Johanssen has suffered damages as a result


----------



## CapnZapp (Jul 31, 2021)

The legality and morality doesn't interest me. What intrigues me is what made it come to this very public clash, and Scarlett's true motivation.

For example, it would be awesome if she used the lawsuit just to force Disney to the negotiation table, and once there, they'd agree that Ms Johansson will donate an unspecified sum* to a fund for struggling actors (say) and Disney will then contribute twice that sum to the same foundation. 

*) A sum insiders will guess to be in the region of maybe $10 to $20 million

And then Scarlett, with Disney CEO Bob Chapel by her side at a press conference, surprisingly says she's decided to start a fund for struggling actresses, and call it The Red Room, a term so generic Disney can try and fail to copyright, and that she's donating $150 million (most of her wealth) and then smiles at Bob. All the cameras turns to look at him compelling him to grin and fork over $300 mill then and there.

As many articles have stated Scarlett is one of the few actresses that don't need Disney. And as I am stating now, Scarlett is very suited to providing a very sweet "frak you" smile


----------



## CapnZapp (Jul 31, 2021)

Blue said:


> I would have loved if the Nat/Yelena fight had Yelena pull off something really good against Nat. And in a later Taskmaster fight Taskmaster is going Nat vs. Nat and countering everything, and Nat then pulls off the Yelena move.



I would have loved if the Taskmaster's signature ability was made a big deal at all.

Just randomly posing as Captain America or Hawkeye? (And coming off more a Terminator than a superhero) That was soo weak.

The idea to shoot arrows like Hawkeye, for example, was just stupid. The arrows missed! What's the point of mimicking random superheroes when you still can't break the law that says the good ones always get away during act I?? If you pull off an Avengers move it needs to be successful!

Starting each fight by losing but then catching up scarily fast? Super cool.

So yes, I like your idea. The whole point was supposed to be you can't beat the Taskmaster without catching it off guard by a spark of true genius, inspiration or heroics only an Avenger like Natasha - or her successor - could come up with!


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 31, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> The court needs to determine if Streaming release has reduced Box office numbers, and if Johanssen has suffered damages as a result



No the real heart of the matter is whether the contract indicates any form of “exclusive box office release”

unless the contract specifies that, then it’s hard to argue that Disney does not has the freedom to release product on its own services…it just means you didn’t think through your contract carefully enough.

now you could have a argument if streaming didn’t exist when the contract was made, but that is unlikely to be the case


----------



## CapnZapp (Aug 6, 2021)

Trying to add interesting articles about this development. Using the app so might make a mess of it.









						Scarlett Johansson’s Black Widow lawsuit has unearthed a huge problem with streaming
					

Hybrid releases have complicated everything.




					www.theverge.com
				












						Disney Needs ‘Stabilizing Force’ Like Alan Horn to Defuse Escalating Scarlett Johansson Lawsuit
					

Calling Alan Horn! As the nasty war between Scarlett Johansson and Disney continues to escalate and rage on in the public eye, might it not be beneficial for someone within the not-so-Magic Kingdom…




					variety.com


----------



## Blue (Aug 6, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> now you could have a argument if streaming didn’t exist when the contract was made, but that is unlikely to be the case



From one of the articles that @CapnZapp linked to:

"According to Johansson’s complaint, terms of her _Black Widow_ release were initially finalized in 2017 — early enough that Disney Plus hadn’t been announced"

So streaming existed but pre Disney+ and pre COVID-19 the concept of an AAA film getting a concurrent streaming release didn't exist.


----------



## Ryujin (Aug 6, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> No the real heart of the matter is whether the contract indicates any form of “exclusive box office release”
> 
> unless the contract specifies that, then it’s hard to argue that Disney does not has the freedom to release product on its own services…it just means you didn’t think through your contract carefully enough.
> 
> now you could have a argument if streaming didn’t exist when the contract was made, but that is unlikely to be the case



Streaming certainly did exist at the time the contract was signed, however, a Marvel/Disney specific streaming service did not. The existence of that service and the need to drive subscriptions gave Disney a reason to interpret the contract in a manner favourable to themselves, despite the fact that industry standard, prior to this, had been a delay of between 90 and 120 days (approx.) between "wide theatrical release (the term that the filing says was used in the contract) and online release.


----------



## CapnZapp (Aug 6, 2021)

One thing I would like articles that discuss the future of box office stars getting huge paychecks to mention, is the historic angle.

That is because the issues and dilemmas are nothing new. There has already been an era where the motion picture production companies owned the distribution channels, did not have to share any data, and more or less "owned" the movie stars. Much like how Netflix is described now, they preferred an endless stream of interchangeable faces, and that people talked about going to, say, the Metro-Goldwyn theater to see whatever it was showing; not that they talked about going to see Scarlett Johansson's latest movie, no matter what company that made it.

Boil it all down to its conclusion and you get a future where Congress prohibits Disney et al from both producing movies and distributing them. A Paramount decrees for the internet era, if you will.


----------



## Mind of tempest (Aug 6, 2021)

CapnZapp said:


> One thing I would like articles that discuss the future of box office stars getting huge paychecks to mention, is the historic angle.
> 
> That is because the issues and dilemmas are nothing new. There has already been an era where the motion picture production companies owned the distribution channels, did not have to share any data, and more or less "owned" the movie stars. Much like how Netflix is described now, they preferred an endless stream of interchangeable faces, and that people talked about going to, say, the Metro-Goldwyn theater to see whatever it was showing; not that they talked about going to see Scarlett Johansson's latest movie, no matter what company that made it.
> 
> Boil it all down to its conclusion and you get a future where Congress prohibits Disney et al from both producing movies and distributing them. A Paramount decrees for the internet era, if you will.



it would never happen now Disney could just buy congress.


----------



## Zaukrie (Aug 7, 2021)

I enjoyed the movie a lot. Too bad it didn't come out years ago. 
I am no fan of how Disney treats artists and authors......


----------



## Umbran (Aug 9, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> The existence of that service and the need to drive subscriptions gave Disney a reason to interpret the contract in a manner favourable to themselves, despite the fact that industry standard, prior to this, had been a delay of between 90 and 120 days (approx.) between "wide theatrical release (the term that the filing says was used in the contract) and online release.




It is slightly worse than that, in that Disney _had recognized_ this was unfair before doing it.  From Variety, emphasis mine:

"_Johansson legal team said that representatives for the actress were worried that “Black Widow” would debut on Disney Plus even before coronavirus brought life to a standstill. As part of the suit, they share emails from the star’s management group that asked the studio to guarantee that “Black Widow” would premiere exclusively in cinemas. In response, *Marvel Chief Counsel Dave Galluzzi promised a traditional theatrical bow, while adding “We understand that should the plan change, we would need to discuss this with you and come to an understanding as the deal is based on a series of (very large) box office bonuses*.”_"

But apparently Disney made no effort to come to that understanding.  

That this is happening right around when the Screen Actor's Guild is having elections is very interesting.


----------



## Ryujin (Aug 9, 2021)

Umbran said:


> It is slightly worse than that, in that Disney _had recognized_ this was unfair before doing it.  From Variety, emphasis mine:
> 
> "_Johansson legal team said that representatives for the actress were worried that “Black Widow” would debut on Disney Plus even before coronavirus brought life to a standstill. As part of the suit, they share emails from the star’s management group that asked the studio to guarantee that “Black Widow” would premiere exclusively in cinemas. In response, *Marvel Chief Counsel Dave Galluzzi promised a traditional theatrical bow, while adding “We understand that should the plan change, we would need to discuss this with you and come to an understanding as the deal is based on a series of (very large) box office bonuses*.”_"
> 
> ...



I don't know if you have ever heard of copyright attorney Leonard French, or his Youtube channel "Lawful Masses", but he did a piece on the filings for Scarlett Johansson on his channel a few days ago. You might find it interesting.


----------



## Umbran (Aug 9, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> I don't know if you have ever heard of copyright attorney Leonard French, or his Youtube channel "Lawful Masses", but he did a piece on the filings for Scarlett Johansson on his channel a few days ago. You might find it interesting.




Hm, yeah.  The guy's assessment that this is probably never going to get to court seems reasonable. 

I think the "You got $20 million, that's enough," response sounds intended to make her seem greedy, and that's a bad "pot calling the kettle black" move for the Mouse.  It does not make them look good at all.  And, with the confidentiality they seem to prefer, I'm a little surprised they spoke hard numbers about her compensation in public at all.

Just pay the talent, and move on, Mouse.


----------



## Maxperson (Oct 2, 2021)

The latest on this.









						Scarlett Johansson Reportedly Paid $40 Million to Settle 'Black Widow' Lawsuit Against Disney (UPDATE)
					

The Oscar-nominated actress accused the studio of breaching its contract when it released 'Black Widow' simultaneously in theaters and on Disney+.




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## Imaculata (Oct 2, 2021)

So not only did she get a huge amount of money, but she will also continue to work with Disney. Especially that last part surprises me.


----------



## billd91 (Oct 2, 2021)

I'm glad they came though with a decent settlement. When they announced that Shang-Chi was going to be theater exclusive, I figured she had some pretty good leverage. I know they wanted theater exclusive for the massive Chinese market, but it thoroughly underscored which movie is being treated differently.


----------



## Maxperson (Oct 2, 2021)

billd91 said:


> I'm glad they came though with a decent settlement. When they announced that Shang-Chi was going to be theater exclusive, I figured she had some pretty good leverage. I know they wanted theater exclusive for the massive Chinese market, but it thoroughly underscored which movie is being treated differently.



I still haven't seen Shang-Chi.  I'm not yet willing to brave indoors with a lot of strangers, even if it is with masks and in Los Angeles.


----------



## Mind of tempest (Oct 2, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> I still haven't seen Shang-Chi.  I'm not yet willing to brave indoors with a lot of strangers, even if it is with masks and in Los Angeles.



It was about what you expect, the villain was good.


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## Tonguez (Oct 2, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> So not only did she get a huge amount of money, but she will also continue to work with Disney. Especially that last part surprises me.



Its much less than she originally asked for, but still a good cut of the profits made. Yeah her still being welcome to work for Disney is a big surprise, it seems that she does have some friends on the inside (go Fiege)

It will be interesting to see what work she gets after Tower of Terror and even more so what this settlement means for the wider industry ie will Streaming profits now be factored into actor pay.


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 2, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> Its much less than she originally asked for, but still a good cut of the profits made. Yeah who still being welcome to work for Disney is a big surprise, it seems that she does have some friends on the inside (go Fiege)
> 
> It will be interesting to see what work she gets after Tower of Terror and even more so what this settlement means for the wider industry ie will Streaming profits now be factored into actor pay.



And they definitely should be. If the studio is profiting, then the talent should be able to profit. 

I'm wondering how the looming IATSE strike is going to affect upcoming productions. From what I've heard from people in the industry, production companies that deal with services like Netflix and Prime are a big issue due to the speed of production and short deadlines, resulting in huge stress on the production teams. This is exactly what the proposed strike is all about.


----------



## Stalker0 (Oct 2, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> So not only did she get a huge amount of money, but she will also continue to work with Disney. Especially that last part surprises me.



We will see how that goes. Everyone right is incentivized to look chummy.

Disney wants to remove any thoughts that they are picking on Scarlet, but instead this was just a misunderstanding that they have worked to address.
Scarlet wants to ensure she is not coming out as a "deva", just someone who had a legitimate concern, and as soon as its addressed she's right back supporting the team.

We will see if that's for the cameras right now or if it actually returns to a good working relationship.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Oct 2, 2021)

So about double her base pay, but about half what estimates were for a theater-only release. Sounds like a good compromise since this is in addition to the base pay.


----------



## CapnZapp (Oct 3, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> So not only did she get a huge amount of money, but she will also continue to work with Disney. Especially that last part surprises me.



As many before me has already said:

"I can think of forty million reasons why."


----------



## CapnZapp (Oct 3, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> Its much less than she originally asked for,



She asked for $50M.

She got $40M according to Deadline.


----------



## Older Beholder (Oct 7, 2021)

The film is free on Disney+ now, for all the cheapo's like me that waited. (And those that were waiting to do a re-watch)

Nothing much to add that hasn't already been covered in the thread already: Johansson, Pugh and Weisz, what more do you need in a film?


----------



## Richards (Oct 11, 2021)

I finally got to see it today.  It reminded me an awful lot of the end of season seven of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" in that by the end, there were a lot of "good guy" women out in the world with the powers of Black Widow/the Slayer and the whole "complete destruction of the Red Room/Sunnydale" thing.

As for Red Guardian, he reminded me a lot of Love Sausage from "The Boys" (the graphic novel version at least - I understand the TV version is significantly different), in that he was pretty much just a big, strong Russian.  And he seemed to have lost quite a few Intelligence points over the years, as he was pretty much a Bond-level Russian sleeper agent in the beginning of the movie (shooting chasing cars from the wing of a plane in motion) and then just a big dumb guy as soon as he put that Red Guardian costume on.

Johnathan


----------



## Ryujin (Oct 11, 2021)

Richards said:


> I finally got to see it today.  It reminded me an awful lot of the end of season seven of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" in that by the end, there were a lot of "good guy" women out in the world with the powers of Black Widow/the Slayer and the whole "complete destruction of the Red Room/Sunnydale" thing.
> 
> As for Red Guardian, he reminded me a lot of Love Sausage from "The Boys" (the graphic novel version at least - I understand the TV version is significantly different), in that he was pretty much just a big, strong Russian.  And he seemed to have lost quite a few Intelligence points over the years, as he was pretty much a Bond-level Russian sleeper agent in the beginning of the movie (shooting chasing cars from the wing of a plane in motion) and then just a big dumb guy as soon as he put that Red Guardian costume on.
> 
> Johnathan



Twenty-odd years of not exercising the mental muscle will do that to you.


----------



## wicked cool (Nov 9, 2021)

Finally saw this- in the marvel movies scale it was a c-. I liked the widow and her sister but there was
-really bad blue screen shots at times. Never got the feeling of height/vertigo even though there are scenes in the air
-not familiar with taskmaster but a mostly mindless zombie didn’t seem right?
-red guardian was basically comedy relief. In the beginning he’s this super spy and yet he’s a moron later on
-the pig scene was wierd and some of the options on the iPad were stupid (destroy skeleton)
-the super bad creates a global army and allows what happens to happen

I did like the end credit and curious on where they are going 

im really curious of people who liked this think it’s better than say the 10 rings or eternals


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Nov 9, 2021)

wicked cool said:


> Finally saw this- in the marvel movies scale it was a c-.




But do you rate any of the other MCU movies lower than this one? I don't.

I want to like it, but I sort of got tired of the character, even before the events of Endgame. I wonder if the writers were sensing that too and why Endgame went the way it did for her. And maybe her solo prequel movie was not as perfect as it could have been because of that too. But I also have a problem enjoying prequels for characters who are dead in the current timeline of what universe/series it may be. On the Star Wars side of Disney, this has me wondering just how well I will be able to invest my enjoyment in either the Obi-Wan or Cassian Andor D+ series.


----------



## Morrus (Nov 9, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> But do you rate any of the other MCU movies lower than this one? I don't.



Hulk, Thor 1 and 2, Iron Man 3, Captain American 1, Ant Man 1 and 2, and Age of Ultron off the top of my head. Apparently Eternals is pretty bad, but I haven't seen it yet.


----------



## Older Beholder (Nov 9, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Apparently Eternals is pretty bad, but I haven't seen it yet.




I liked Eternals a lot, but there's 10 main characters and 7000 years of history to cover in 2 and half hours so that will put off a lot of people. 

I've seen people mention that it's more like a DC film. Chloe Zhao has confirmed that she's a fan of Zack Snyder and that Man of Steel was her main inspiration for the film.


----------



## D1Tremere (Nov 9, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Loki is well done. Thanos is less so.
> 
> Thanos' plan doesn't hold up to 30 seconds of scrutiny.  Which is fine, if you make it clear he really is the "Mad Titan".  But they don't do that.



His plan actually makes slightly more sense if you take the position that he new about the main plot point from Eternals.


----------



## Morrus (Nov 9, 2021)

The Lizard Wizard said:


> I liked Eternals a lot, but there's 10 main characters and 7000 years of history to cover in 2 and half hours so that will put off a lot of people.
> 
> I've seen people mention that it's more like a DC film. Chloe Zhao has confirmed that she's a fan of Zack Snyder and that Man of Steel was her main inspiration for the film.



Huh. I wasn’t interested in it until now. MoS is one of my favourite superhero movies.


----------



## wicked cool (Nov 9, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> But do you rate any of the other MCU movies lower than this one? I don't.
> 
> I want to like it, but I sort of got tired of the character, even before the events of Endgame. I wonder if the writers were sensing that too and why Endgame went the way it did for her. And maybe her solo prequel movie was not as perfect as it could have been because of that too. But I also have a problem enjoying prequels for characters who are dead in the current timeline of what universe/series it may be. On the Star Wars side of Disney, this has me wondering just how well I will be able to invest my enjoyment in either the Obi-Wan or Cassian Andor D+ series.



Original hulk was really bad but not sure I count that as mcu. I would say a tie with captain marvel and the antman 

being a prequel didn’t bother me. I know Luke sky walker was dead but having him show in Mando was great.

these movies have a decent to good lead actor but the villains aren’t very good and the scripts don’t seem very good

the main villian was so bland I can’t recall his name 

I would argue that all of the Netflix marvel tv series had better villains than this movie
Kingpin
Kilgrave-same kind of powers but more jnteresting
Jigsaw-more compelling villian
Mariah Dillard, cottonmouth etc


----------



## Older Beholder (Nov 9, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Huh. I wasn’t interested in it until now. MoS is one of my favourite superhero movies.




Hopefully that hasn't raised your expectations too much, but I thought you'd find that interesting. Worth checking out on the big screen if you get the chance.


----------



## Umbran (Nov 9, 2021)

D1Tremere said:


> His plan actually makes slightly more sense if you take the position that he new about the main plot point from Eternals.




Not having seen it, I cannot.

However, the basic issue with Thanos' plan is super-simple - what he does is undone within less than a century by plain old fashion population growth.


----------



## Umbran (Nov 9, 2021)

wicked cool said:


> I would argue that all of the Netflix marvel tv series had better villains than this movie




1) Marvel movies _are not about_ the villains, generally.

2) A movie has two to two-and-a-half hours of total screen time.  One season of Marvel TV has about 13 episodes, or about 11 hours of screen time.  No stuff, with 5 times more show, they can make characters more interesting.


----------



## S'mon (Nov 9, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Hulk, Thor 1 and 2, Iron Man 3, *Captain American 1*, Ant Man 1 and 2, and Age of Ultron off the top of my head. Apparently Eternals is pretty bad, but I haven't seen it yet.




?!? :-O Blasphemy!!


----------



## wicked cool (Nov 9, 2021)

Umbran said:


> 1) Marvel movies _are not about_ the villains, generally.
> 
> 2) A movie has two to two-and-a-half hours of total screen time.  One season of Marvel TV has about 13 episodes, or about 11 hours of screen time.  No stuff, with 5 times more show, they can make characters more interesting.



i would slightly disagree with you
Thanos (2 movies and he was some of the better parts of the movies), almost every spiderman villian, Ultron could have been better/should have been.  Killmonger in black panther steals the show. They steal the show because there are moments in the mvoie where it looks hopeless and all is lost and the villian is winning. Widow literally has about 3 seconds of that . Once she breaks her nose its game over  

Vincent D'onofrio has screen presence in that role (he didnt have it in the jurassic park movie). Yes he has more time to develop but Michael Keaton didnt

General Dreykov is played by Ray Winstone (has good performances to his name) and is the main villian in the movie . I would argue that he was less interesting than many minor marvel movie villians. This goes to the script and director

Its part of the problem with iron man 2/3/hulks/parts of guardians 2-The villians and scripts are lacking


----------



## Umbran (Nov 9, 2021)

wicked cool said:


> Vincent D'onofrio has screen presence in that role (he didnt have it in the jurassic park movie). Yes he has more time to develop but Michael Keaton didnt




Michael Keaton... has turned out to be some kind of demigod, rather than a mortal actor.

A woman just ran six marathons in six weeks, two of them back to back on consecutive days.  That one person can manage that does not make it a realistic target or expectation for marathoners, in general.  That a couple of movies have been exceptional is not proof (or even particularly strong evidence) that can be the norm.


----------



## wicked cool (Nov 9, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Michael Keaton... has turned out to be some kind of demigod, rather than a mortal actor.
> 
> A woman just ran six marathons in six weeks, two of them back to back on consecutive days.  That one person can manage that does not make it a realistic target or expectation for marathoners, in general.  That a couple of movies have been exceptional is not proof (or even particularly strong evidence) that can be the norm.



true . i would argue that there is a formula and the reason these movies arent meeting expectations is due to poor/average performances, weak scripts and weak villians

i havent seen the newest marvel movies but i would bet they fall prey to the above


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## Umbran (Nov 9, 2021)

wicked cool said:


> true . i would argue that there is a formula and the reason these movies arent meeting expectations is due to poor/average performances, weak scripts and weak villians




"Formula" implies "predictable results".  Since the results are not predicable (some are good, others not), there is no formula for success.



wicked cool said:


> i havent seen the newest marvel movies but i would bet they fall prey to the above




Shang Chi was a lot of fun.  Black Widow wasn't my absolute favorite, but there were a lot of things in it I did like, and I don't feel like it was a waste.  My wife, who is not a big fan of Marvel characters who's basic power is "punch things" (so the Captain America films really weren't her bag) liked Black Widow.


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## wicked cool (Nov 9, 2021)

Umbran said:


> "Formula" implies "predictable results".  Since the results are not predicable (some are good, others not), there is no formula for success.
> 
> 
> 
> Shang Chi was a lot of fun.  Black Widow wasn't my absolute favorite, but there were a lot of things in it I did like, and I don't feel like it was a waste.  My wife, who is not a big fan of Marvel characters who's basic power is "punch things" (so the Captain America films really weren't her bag) liked Black Widow.



agree not a waste just not great


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## Umbran (Nov 9, 2021)

wicked cool said:


> agree not a waste just not great




When everything is great, our ideas of what constitutes greatness change.  Once you have enough of a type of movie out there to think about an _average_, we could then reasonably expect that roughly half of them will be below that average, and half above. 

Our expectations should then be that about half the Marvel movies are "not great".


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## Retreater (Nov 9, 2021)

I think Endgame was a fine ending point for my Marvel viewing - a satisfying enough end to a story arc. It seems like everything Marvel makes is just hyping for the next upcoming movie or series, and it's exhausting. 
So no Black Widow, no Disney+ Series, no Shang-Chi, no Eternals, etc.


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## Deset Gled (Nov 9, 2021)

Retreater said:


> I think Endgame was a fine ending point for my Marvel viewing - a satisfying enough end to a story arc. It seems like everything Marvel makes is just hyping for the next upcoming movie or series, and it's exhausting.
> So no Black Widow, no Disney+ Series, no Shang-Chi, no Eternals, etc.




This may be considered a "hot take", but I actually think that Infinity War is the best ending point for the MCU.  As long as you're okay with downer endings (which, clearly, I am) it makes for a much more solid conclusion of the series.  For every moment of character and plot development that Endgame has, it backtracks on another one (or more).  And no super hero story has ever been made better with time travel.


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## wicked cool (Nov 9, 2021)

Umbran said:


> When everything is great, our ideas of what constitutes greatness change.  Once you have enough of a type of movie out there to think about an _average_, we could then reasonably expect that roughly half of them will be below that average, and half above.
> 
> Our expectations, then are that about half the Marvel movies are "not great".



agreed almost 1/2 arent great

there are certain ones when they come on say TNT i will pause and watch. There are others where i wont  and there are some so bad that i quickly skip (the hulk move for instance where he turns to banner by melting).  Winter Soldier comes on and i'm not turning the television regardless of how many times ive seen it

I would argue there are only a few batman movies where i do the same. The rest are very bad (batman forever, batman robin with Clooney). Clooney is considered an iconic actor by some and yet these movies to me are painful to watch.


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## Retreater (Nov 9, 2021)

wicked cool said:


> agreed almost 1/2 arent great



Sadly that's how I feel about Star Wars now - more are bad than good, IMO.


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## Blue (Nov 9, 2021)

Retreater said:


> I think Endgame was a fine ending point for my Marvel viewing - a satisfying enough end to a story arc. It seems like everything Marvel makes is just hyping for the next upcoming movie or series, and it's exhausting.
> So no Black Widow, no Disney+ Series, no Shang-Chi, no Eternals, etc.



I feel like Toy Story was a fine ending point for my Pixar viewing - a satisfying and emotional end.  It seems like most of the movies Pixar is coming out with are sequals and series and it's exhausting.

_tongue in cheek_


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## Retreater (Nov 9, 2021)

Blue said:


> I feel like Toy Story was a fine ending point for my Pixar viewing - a satisfying and emotional end.  It seems like most of the movies Pixar is coming out with are sequals and series and it's exhausting.
> 
> _tongue in cheek_



I get it, but it's not like a Pixar movie leaves behind huge plot holes, has no wrap-up, etc. That's Marvel territory. To me, MCU films are individually unsatisfying (with only a few exceptions). On the series front, Loki doesn't even make sense. It doesn't tell a coherent story. It's a "set up" for the next phase of Marvel movies - a season-long commercial disguised as entertainment.


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## S'mon (Nov 9, 2021)

Deset Gled said:


> This may be considered a "hot take", but I actually think that Infinity War is the best ending point for the MCU.  As long as you're okay with downer endings (which, clearly, I am) it makes for a much more solid conclusion of the series.  For every moment of character and plot development that Endgame has, it backtracks on another one (or more).  And no super hero story has ever been made better with time travel.



I'd say remove the time travel and end it with the death of Thanos.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Nov 9, 2021)

I guess it is all perspective. I think even the best of the DCEU movies is worse than the lowest of the MCU movies.


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## MarkB (Nov 9, 2021)

Deset Gled said:


> This may be considered a "hot take", but I actually think that Infinity War is the best ending point for the MCU.  As long as you're okay with downer endings (which, clearly, I am) it makes for a much more solid conclusion of the series.  For every moment of character and plot development that Endgame has, it backtracks on another one (or more).  And no super hero story has ever been made better with time travel.



I certainly agree about the time travel part. Much of Endgame wound up feeling like a Greatest Hits reel of prior Marvel movies.


S'mon said:


> I'd say remove the time travel and end it with the death of Thanos.



Or just have Thor aim for the head in the first place.


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## Ryujin (Nov 9, 2021)

Deset Gled said:


> This may be considered a "hot take", but I actually think that Infinity War is the best ending point for the MCU.  As long as you're okay with downer endings (which, clearly, I am) it makes for a much more solid conclusion of the series.  For every moment of character and plot development that Endgame has, it backtracks on another one (or more).  And no super hero story has ever been made better with time travel.



I would tend to agree with that. There's nothing wrong with the heroes losing in the end, after a hard fought battle. For me, "Endgame" has one big flaw. Sure, I enjoyed it, but it highlights the fact that in the modern world of comics, death isn't final. Ever.


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## Blue (Nov 9, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> I would tend to agree with that. There's nothing wrong with the heroes losing in the end, after a hard fought battle. For me, "Endgame" has one big flaw. Sure, I enjoyed it, but it highlights the fact that in the modern world of comics, death isn't final. Ever.



Wow, have to disagree.  Deux ex Machina death as a plot point isn't permanent I can buy.  But so far MCU has had two meaningful hero deaths - Gamora and Natasha - and they definitely feel like final death.

The only other meaningful "death" was Cap at the end of his first movie, but that's told within the framing story of finding his frozen body.  The characters thought Steve was going to die at the end, and say their goodbyes, but we know differently.

EDIT: And OMG how could I forget Tony's death?  That also felt very final and hasn't been reversed.


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## Ryujin (Nov 9, 2021)

Blue said:


> Wow, have to disagree.  Deux ex Machina death as a plot point isn't permanent I can buy.  But so far MCU has had two meaningful hero deaths - Gamora and Natasha - and they definitely feel like final death.
> 
> The only other meaningful "death" was Cap at the end of his first movie, but that's told within the framing story of finding his frozen body.  The characters thought Steve was going to die at the end, and say their goodbyes, but we know differently.



And yet Gamora is apparently coming back for "Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 3." Prequel? Flashback? Don't think so. It's convenient to leave Black Widow dead, because her contract is done. Then there's that little lawsuit thing. Chris Evans's contract is also up.


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## Retreater (Nov 9, 2021)

Blue said:


> Wow, have to disagree.  Deux ex Machina death as a plot point isn't permanent I can buy.  But so far MCU has had two meaningful hero deaths - Gamora and Natasha - and they definitely feel like final death.
> 
> The only other meaningful "death" was Cap at the end of his first movie, but that's told within the framing story of finding his frozen body.  The characters thought Steve was going to die at the end, and say their goodbyes, but we know differently.



Groot. That one gets me.


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## ART! (Nov 9, 2021)

If a character's death is meaningful and compelling to me in the moment, cool. If they're brought back later in a way that doesn't challenge my willingness to believe too much, and has compelling dramatic results, cool. I'm there for the drama.


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## Blue (Nov 9, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> And yet Gamora is apparently coming back for "Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 3." Prequel? Flashback? Don't think so. It's convenient to leave Black Widow dead, because her contract is done. Then there's that little lawsuit thing. Chris Evans's contract is also up.



Citation please.  We know there's a different Gamora from the other Thanos' timeline around.  Who's a distinctly different person.


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## Umbran (Nov 9, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> And yet Gamora is apparently coming back for "Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 3." Prequel? Flashback? Don't think so.




Nope.  It is Gamora from an alternate timeline, who came along with the Thanos from that timeline to fight in that final battle, even they'd already killed one.



Ryujin said:


> It's convenient to leave Black Widow dead, because her contract is done. Then there's that little lawsuit thing. Chris Evans's contract is also up.




Yes, well the actors are still human beings.  Superhero movies are mostly a young person's game, because the phsycial regimen required is _grueling_.  Hemsworth has noted that his time too will come soon, because even while he seems a natural at the workout, he recognizes that his body will eventually no longer be able to keep up.


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## Ryujin (Nov 9, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Nope.  It is Gamora from an alternate timeline, who came along with the Thanos from that timeline to fight in that final battle, even they'd already killed one.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, well the actors are still human beings.  Superhero movies are mostly a young person's game, because the phsycial regimen required is _grueling_.  Hemsworth has noted that his time too will come soon, because even while he seems a natural at the workout, he recognizes that his body will eventually no longer be able to keep up.



I bet that Hemsworth was _very_ happy to wear the fat suit for a while, no matter how hot it got.

I'm quite enjoying the Steve Rogers/Mr. Rogers meme that the movie generated.


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## Older Beholder (Nov 9, 2021)

I'm honestly more excited for the future projects at this point.
The TV shows have been some of the best things Marvel have done.

I can't remember looking forward to a film more than Dr Strange and the multiverse of madness and I'll take as many Taika Waititi Thor movies as I can get.

Throw into that the casting choices of:

Mahershala Ali as Blade
Kit Harington as The Black Knight
Oscar Isaac as Moon Knight

This is all before Marvel even get to their biggest properties The Fantastic 4 and the X-men


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## RangerWickett (Nov 9, 2021)

Blue said:


> Wow, have to disagree.  Deux ex Machina death as a plot point isn't permanent I can buy.  But so far MCU has had two meaningful hero deaths - Gamora and Natasha - and they definitely feel like final death.
> 
> The only other meaningful "death" was Cap at the end of his first movie, but that's told within the framing story of finding his frozen body.  The characters thought Steve was going to die at the end, and say their goodbyes, but we know differently.
> 
> EDIT: And OMG how could I forget Tony's death?  That also felt very final and hasn't been reversed.



Phil Coulson? The TV series not withstanding.


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## Retreater (Nov 10, 2021)

RangerWickett said:


> Phil Coulson? The TV series not withstanding.



Did he die? I thought it was faked even the first time I watched Avengers. Maybe I misinterpreted it.


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## billd91 (Nov 10, 2021)

Retreater said:


> Did he die? I thought it was faked even the first time I watched Avengers. Maybe I misinterpreted it.



It wasn’t faked. Coulson is resurrected by a covert program for Agents of SHIELD.
Fury manipulates the Avengers with Coulson’s death, but he isn’t lying about losing his one good eye.


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## Ryujin (Nov 10, 2021)

Retreater said:


> Did he die? I thought it was faked even the first time I watched Avengers. Maybe I misinterpreted it.



He died. "Tahiti. It's a magical place" was an implanted memory to cover the hell that he went through in the resurrection process. I think it was also mentioned that Fury had gone through it, at some point, though i can't specifically remember when.


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## Davies (Nov 10, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> He died. "Tahiti. It's a magical place" was an implanted memory to cover the hell that he went through in the resurrection process. *I think it was also mentioned that Fury had gone through it*, at some point, though i can't specifically remember when.




I really don't think so, and he's not listed among the test subjects for it on the MCU Wiki's page on the subject.


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## Ryujin (Nov 10, 2021)

Davies said:


> I really don't think so, and he's not listed among the test subjects for it on the MCU Wiki's page on the subject.



From what little I remember it was just some throw-away line by Fury. Might have been on "Agents of Shield" but, again, I don't remember clearly.


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## Stalker0 (Nov 11, 2021)

Umbran said:


> When everything is great, our ideas of what constitutes greatness change.  Once you have enough of a type of movie out there to think about an _average_, we could then reasonably expect that roughly half of them will be below that average, and half above.
> 
> Our expectations should then be that about half the Marvel movies are "not great".



This assumes a static bar of expectation by which each new movie is measured.

ideally through you would hope one movies spurs the next to even greater heights, and so the bar would continue to rise over time.


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## Umbran (Nov 11, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> This assumes a static bar of expectation by which each new movie is measured.




No.  _EXACTLY_ the opposite.  And I stated as much in the very first sentence of that post!  "When everything is great, our ideas of what constitutes greatness change."  

I mean, aside from that fact that I said the exact opposite, what you say here makes no sense.  If there was a fixed, static bar, then any given series of movies could certainly be over the bar - every movie ever made could be great, if they were just crafted well enough to make it over the bar.

So, I dunno what to tell you - you're just really wrong here.


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## Paul Farquhar (Nov 11, 2021)

I always prefer a static bar to a pop-up micro-brewery.


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## Zaukrie (Nov 11, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I always prefer a static bar to a pop-up micro-brewery.



You're missing out. I love the taproom that changes which small brewery they feature every month....


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## MarkB (Nov 11, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I always prefer a static bar to a pop-up micro-brewery.



Static bars have a lot of potential, but in practice they're often absolutely shocking.


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## Nikosandros (Nov 11, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Static bars have a lot of potential, but in practice they're often absolutely shocking.



That's a statement charged with negativity. I always try to insulate myself against this kind of polarization.


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## Ryujin (Nov 11, 2021)

Static Bar. Is that like the Immovable Rod? Those things have a million uses.


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