# The changes to languages are a good start



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 24, 2022)

There's a lot of good stuff in the new languages lists:



> STANDARD LANGUAGES
> Language - Typical Users
> Common - Anyone
> Common Sign Language - Anyone
> ...





> RARE LANGUAGES
> Language - Typical Users
> Abyssal -Demons
> Celestial -Celestials
> ...



The elevation of sign language -- in a way that reflects that sign is not a single universal language among all deaf people in the real world -- is fantastic. It's recognizing deaf gamers (I DM for one!) while also providing an obvious tactical use for languages for folks who aren't normally terribly excited about language selection. Fantastic inclusion, no notes.

That said, the rest of the list could be further improved:

1) For starters, we're still perpetuating the idea that every member of a species is the member of a culture with a single language, something we humans, with a globe-spanning presence, certainly haven't mastered. I think it'd be ideal if the 2024 PHB suggested that these are abstractions and realistically, most of these languages would actually be a number of languages -- many of them shared across species -- rather than singular languages, and when there is a *species-spanning language*, there's usually a supernatural reason for it happening, at least in part. (If the emissaries of the dwarven gods all speak Dwarvish, that's a strong motivation for dwarves to learn and use that language.)

2) D&D long ago tossed alignment languages into the trash can. It's probably time to do the same thing for *Druidic*, unless there's a compelling argument why they're more likely to have a secret language than other classes and why that secret language wouldn't just be Sylvan or Primordial. What special communications are the druids having -- and about what -- that they want to keep secret from dryads and water elementals? This is a weird holdover that doesn't seem to have a point. I've been playing since 1E and I've _never_ seen it used in game, as opposed to Thieves Cant, which is used regularly in my rogue-heavy games.

3) Speaking of Primordial, it's not something that even WotC seems to support. In the 2014 Monster Manual, _one_ monster speaks "*Primordial*." And it's not an elemental. It's the Night Hag. Everyone else speaks a "dialect." But either the dialects can't communicate with one another -- in which case, they should be considered languages, not dialects -- or all these monsters should be just speaking "Primordial," since no one else's accent gets its own special names in D&D. Honestly, I don't see an argument for why water weirds and dao speak the same language and splitting them back into four languages, as they were in 3E, is more colorful and evocative. The handful of druids and wizards who want to speak to all elementals will just learn all four languages anyway (remember: you can learn languages during downtime, and don't need a feat or subclass feature to do it) and they will not be harmed.

4) Beyond that, more languages are needed. For the first time, D&D has a single way to classify Neutral Evil fiends: They're *Chthonic*. And talk about a group that _is_ motivated to have secret communications they don't want others to be privy to. They need their own language, distinct from Abyssal and Infernal.

5) On the flip side, if fiends don't all speak Fiendish, why do all residents of the Upper Planes speak *Celestial*? Only a third of them are lawful. Why would the dudebros of Valhalla want to speak the same language as a cherub hanging out on a cloud, plucking a harp while wearing a diaper? The new Ardling write-up gives us several good names for three different Celestial languages: Exalted, Heavenly and Idyllic. Anything that gives the Upper Planes a bit more character is a good thing, and this is a simple and (IMO) obvious change.

6) That said, what do the residents of the Neutral Planes speak? Or the residents of the Shadowfell? What's the common language of Sigil? I bet there's answers in 2E and 4E books to some of these questions, but in 5E, the answer is "uh, whatever your DM says." We can do better than that.

For starters, residents of the Planes of Law, of everyone in the entire multiverse, would be super-keen to have their own language, spoken across half the Outer Planes. Taking a cue from 3E, call it "*Axiomatic*."
Meanwhile, residents of the Planes of Chaos seem likely to speak their own local languages. There is no organization likely to impose a common language on everyone and the residents of these planes are too fractious to go along with it for long.
Back in the Shadowfell, outside of the Domains of Dread, there are cities, cultures and trade between them. It seems likely there'd be a common tongue. In the Feywild, that language is Sylvan. But in the Shadowfell, "*Umbral*" seems right, a language of slippery meanings and subtle connotations, the natural language of liars and what many Prime illusionists write their spellbooks in, rather than Draconic.
Another 2E language that has drifted into obscurity is *Jannti*, the language of genies. Xorn and frost salamanders are unlikely to sit around and chew the fat, but genies are all about seeing and being seen, visiting each others palaces and cities with great retinues and fanfare. They need a courtly language that lends itself to poetry, seduction, diplomacy and betrayal. (It also distinguishes them from other elementals, whom you know the genies look down on.)
In Sigil, all of these languages are spoken, and many more. But there needs to be a trade language and a language of diplomacy spoken by visitors there and many who travel the Astral Sea or sail Oceanus or Styx. Taking a name from Planescape, if not the vocabulary, call it the *Planar Cant*.
Finally, this is a low-pain change. Languages only matter as much as a DM wants them to. Never want to deal with languages? Great, everyone, including hostile NPCs, all speak the same locally popular language, probably Common. And if DMs love languages but players don't, learning languages can be done during downtime and, soon enough, can be handled with magic.

For those who enjoy languages, though, this makes the default/implicit setting of D&D a richer place, where a mountain-dwelling monk might be able to talk to the wind spirits of the mountaintop without then automatically being able to communicate with the creatures from the darkest ocean trenches, where deceitful shadowy creatures speak a language that lends itself to lies (maybe it grants advantage to Deception or disadvantage to Insight), and where beautiful works of poetry exalt lakes of fire and infinite blue skies.

What do you think?


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## Tales and Chronicles (Aug 24, 2022)

I agree with everything. Not much to add, but having different elemental language and planar languages would make the whole thing more interesting.


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## Charlaquin (Aug 24, 2022)

Personally I would like to see the language categories change slightly. Rather than common and rare languages, I think active and dead languages would be a better distinction.

But, I imagine that kind of distinction probably implies too much about setting


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## Yaarel (Aug 24, 2022)

There is almost one language for each alignment plane:

• True Good: Celestial (Idyllic/Paradisal dialect?)
• Lawful Good: Celestial (Heavenly/Supernal dialect?)
• Chaotic Good: Celestial (Exalted dialect?)

• True Neutral: Primordial (!)
• Lawful Neutral: (Axiomatic?) (Mechan?)
• Chaotic Neutral: (Electic?)

• True Evil: Chthonic (?)
• Lawful Evil: Infernal
• Chaotic Evil: Abyssal


I propose the True Neutral astral dominion and the Elemental Chaos are the same thing! Whence, Primordial is the True Neutral language.

I am less fond of the name "Idyllic" for NG. Maybe call it "Paradisal" instead, relating to Paradise?


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## Lanefan (Aug 24, 2022)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> The elevation of sign language -- in a way that reflects that sign is not a single universal language among all deaf people in the real world -- is fantastic. It's recognizing deaf gamers (I DM for one!) while also providing an obvious tactical use for languages for folks who aren't normally terribly excited about language selection. Fantastic inclusion, no notes.



Agreed.


Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> That said, the rest of the list could be further improved: [...]



And you're on the right track with some suggested improvements.

First off, I'll say I really don't mind species-spanning languages for a lot of monsters.  Just for the sake of sheer simplicity I'm happy to have all Frost Giants just speak Frost Giant.  That said, Frost Giant in my game is a different language from Stone Giant, Hill Giant, Fire Giant, Storm Giant (this one being the only Giant tongue that has a written form), and three or four other Giant languages.  The same holds true for other monsters - Centaurs have their own language, as do Unicorns, Bugbears, and about 50 other monsters.

I can also live with near-species-spanning languages for Dwarves and each Elvish sub-type, though local dialects do exist here and there.  I chalk this up to a combination of divine influence and a small but persistent amount of long-distance and-or world-hoppign travel.

But Humans should have dozens of languages.  Orcs should also have a lot, almost one per community.  And at the very least each creature capable of coherent speech should have its own language - batching all the woodland creatures into "Fey" isn't any fun at all.

As for the outsiders' languages, again there should be more.  I've never worried much about demonic or devilish language specifics, if only because on the extremely few occasions anyone bothers to speak to one it either already knows something a PC speaks or there's lots of _Comprehend Language_ and _Tongues_ involved.

Mind Flayers have their own (sort of) language, even though 99% of their communication is psionic.  Gith have their own.  And so on.  Divine beings have their own language but as most are capable of speaking any mortal language they want to, you'll never hear them use their own.

Alignment languages are gone, as are Thieves' and Assassins' cants.  I've never had Druidic as its own thing.


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## Lanefan (Aug 24, 2022)

Charlaquin said:


> Personally I would like to see the language categories change slightly. Rather than common and rare languages, I think active and dead languages would be a better distinction.



Nothing stopping one from doing both.  You can easily have a list of active Human languages side-along with a list of inactive or dead ones, for example; and have those lists subdivided or ranked by commonality either now or when they existed.


Charlaquin said:


> But, I imagine that kind of distinction probably implies too much about setting



Yes, anything like this would be setting-specific; though if they go with a default setting in 5.5 they can always show the language charts for that as an example.


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## UngeheuerLich (Aug 24, 2022)

One nice thing: thieves cant is just a language now.


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## Ruin Explorer (Aug 24, 2022)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> The elevation of sign language -- in a way that reflects that sign is not a single universal language among all deaf people in the real world -- is fantastic.



Yes I was impressed by that, particularly from Americans, because even a lot of anti-ableism people there seem bizarrely unaware that ASL is only one of many sign languages and even in the UK we have a different sign language.


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## AnotherGuy (Aug 24, 2022)

Ruin Explorer said:


> Yes I was impressed by that, particularly from Americans, because even a lot of anti-ableism people there seem bizarrely unaware that ASL is only one of many sign languages and even in the UK we have a different sign language.



Quite a dig there, and I'm not even American.
Second who are these anti-ableists that we now need to be aware of?
I'm sure both the mythical anti-ableists as well as many non-mythical humans weren't aware of different sign languages existing.

On a completely different note as someone who does not have anyone in his circle who uses sign language the insertion of the common sign language in the D&D product has inspire me with an idea for creating an adventure that includes the party having to interact with a race or people that use sign language to the exclusion of all other spoken language purposefully. Love stuff like this.


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## Ruin Explorer (Aug 24, 2022)

AnotherGuy said:


> Quite a dig there, and I'm not even American.
> Second who are these anti-ableists that we now need to be aware of?
> I'm sure both the mythical anti-ableists as well as many non-mythical humans weren't aware of different sign languages.



I think you're misinterpreting "anti-ableists". I mean people who are against disability discrimination, not like, people who are against able people or whatever. You don't "need to be aware of" them, I mean what are you talking about? They're not a threat to anybody. They're just people trying to help who in some cases could stand to be a bit less Americanocentric in their assumptions.

If you think there hasn't been an issue with ASL being thought of as the _only_ sign language by certain (often otherwise quite knowledgeable) sections of the American populace, though (and some non-Americans who are a bit ignorant about disability issues), then I'm afraid you are wrong, sadly. An awful lot of people just assume there's "sign language" and that it's somehow international, and because of the dominance of US media, they tend to assume it's ASL. I mention anti-ableist people as I found it shocking (hence the word "even" being used) that people who consider themselves disability activists would not know this - but there are plenty who don't.


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## AnotherGuy (Aug 24, 2022)

Ruin Explorer said:


> An awful lot of people just assume there's "sign language" and that it's somehow international, and because of the dominance of US media, they tend to assume it's ASL.



I assumed (wrongly) there is one sign language because why would we create more complexity for the deaf, but it makes  sense given our species history with languages.


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## Charlaquin (Aug 24, 2022)

AnotherGuy said:


> I assumed (wrongly) there is one sign language because why would we create more complexity for the deaf, but it makes  sense given our species history with languages.



“We” didn’t create sign languages _for_ the deaf and hard of hearing, they created them for themselves. And just like spoken languages, sign languages have developed independently in many parts of the world.

A lot of hearing people (especially in America) wrongly assume that sign languages are basically just ciphers for equivalent spoken languages, but they are in fact full languages, just as nuanced and complex as spoken languages.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 24, 2022)

Lanefan said:


> Alignment languages are gone, as are Thieves' and Assassins' cants.  I've never had Druidic as its own thing.



Did assassins have their own in 1E? I know illusionists' spellbooks were incomprehensible to magic-users, and I can remember the hierarchy of assassins in the PHB, but I can't remember them having their own language, although it fits the logic of that era.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 24, 2022)

Charlaquin said:


> “We” didn’t create sign languages _for_ the deaf and hard of hearing, they created them for themselves. And just like spoken languages, sign languages have developed independently in many parts of the world.
> 
> A lot of hearing people (especially in America) wrongly assume that sign languages are basically just ciphers for equivalent spoken languages, but they are in fact full languages, just as nuanced and complex as spoken languages.



To elaborate on this:

American Sign Language, grammatically, is similar to Mandarin. (I know, that surprised me, too.)

It is _not_ Signed English -- basically, just using ASL signs structured like English communication. It's basically the pidgeon version of sign language used to communicate with the hearing, who often have a hard time making the grammatical leap to true ASL. Native ASL speakers are almost all able to understand and communicate with Signed English, since they're familiar with English grammar from reading it constantly.

I started with Signed English and am slowly learning more ASL grammar as time goes on. Most of the time, when I'm communicating with deaf people I know, I do a sloppy mix of both. I think of it as little kid sign.


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## Charlaquin (Aug 24, 2022)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> To elaborate on this:
> 
> American Sign Language, grammatically, is similar to Mandarin. (I know, that surprised me, too.)
> 
> ...



Yup, ASL vs. SEE. I’m just beginning to study it myself because spending two years in masks that covered our mouths made me realize what a barrier to communication it must be, and I think being able to communicate is (or ought to be) a human right.


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## Lanefan (Aug 24, 2022)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Did assassins have their own in 1E? I know illusionists' spellbooks were incomprehensible to magic-users, and I can remember the hierarchy of assassins in the PHB, but I can't remember them having their own language, although it fits the logic of that era.



I think they did, but my RAW memory is very fuzzy as I gave them their own anyway right from the start...then much later dropped the cants idea completely when after 20 years of DMing I had yet to see one in use in any way.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 24, 2022)

Lanefan said:


> I think they did, but my RAW memory is very fuzzy as I gave them their own anyway right from the start...then much later dropped the cants idea completely when after 20 years of DMing I had yet to see one in use in any way.



I run a lot of urban games in a setting where multiple thieves guilds/crime families are battling for supremacy, so it get used all the time for me, but I can easily envision a lot of campaigns where it would be completely unused.


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## Lanefan (Aug 25, 2022)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> I run a lot of urban games in a setting where multiple thieves guilds/crime families are battling for supremacy, so it get used all the time for me, but I can easily envision a lot of campaigns where it would be completely unused.



I certainly allow for the idea of Thieves and Assassins having things like signal systems, codes, etc., but none of them would be universal.  There might be eight different signal systems in use in the same small city, each developed by and bespoke to a different guild or group, meaning that a PC's knowledge of one from somewhere will probably be useless well over 99% of the time.

And if the adventuring party want to develop their own system of signals and codes (I've seen this done at least in a rudimentary fashion) that's fine too - but it'll be unique to them.


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## Horwath (Aug 25, 2022)

Lanefan said:


> And if the adventuring party want to develop their own system of signals and codes (I've seen this done at least in a rudimentary fashion) that's fine too - but it'll be unique to them.



In one campaign I persuaded the DM that we can get with week of downtime "party proficiency" in simple sign language like many military uses:

few dozen meanings:
go forward, halt, return, hide, beware ambush/trap, go around, look there, X enemies ahead and similar.


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## Yora (Aug 25, 2022)

I actually fail to see anything changed in the language list, other than there being a sign language of common.


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## Minigiant (Aug 25, 2022)

I thInk it's beyond time for Mixed languages.

*Northcommon* for the mix of Dwarven, Giant, and Common spoke in areas with heavy integration with the Dwarves and Giant. 

On the other side, *Hobgoblin* could be a mix language of Elven, Slyvan Common, and Goblin that nations close to the Fey wild but still worldly use rooted from the hobgoblin exodus from the Feywild.

*High Speak* would be the parent language where Common and Halfling. It would have none of the loanwords ground in Common and Halfling..


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## Nikosandros (Aug 25, 2022)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Did assassins have their own in 1E? I know illusionists' spellbooks were incomprehensible to magic-users, and I can remember the hierarchy of assassins in the PHB, but I can't remember them having their own language, although it fits the logic of that era.



They don't. Those with an intelligence of 15 or more can learn secret languages such as Thieves' Cant, Druidic and the nine alignment languages.


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## AnotherGuy (Aug 25, 2022)

Charlaquin said:


> “We” didn’t create sign languages _for_ the deaf and hard of hearing, they created them for themselves.



That's awesome.



Charlaquin said:


> And just like spoken languages, sign languages have developed independently in many parts of the world.



Hence my comment about our species history with languages.



Charlaquin said:


> A lot of hearing people (especially in America) wrongly assume that sign languages are basically just ciphers for equivalent spoken languages, but they are in fact full languages, just as nuanced and complex as spoken languages.



Interestingly my idea for an adventure I mentioned upthread was following this line of thinking,
It also interesting to consider casters of a sign-language using people not requiring the verbal component of the spells - perhaps they create sound effects (tapping, blowing, spitting, clapping, clicking, trilling, scratching, whistling. Etc) although some of those would likely still be considered somatic. One could come up with innovative ideas.


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## MockingBird (Aug 25, 2022)

Just out of curiosity, does language actually come up in everyone's game? I've used it but only written languages, like trying to translate a dead language no longer used.


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## AnotherGuy (Aug 25, 2022)

MockingBird said:


> Just out of curiosity, does language actually come up in everyone's game? I've used it but only written languages, like trying to translate a dead language no longer used.



I have when Mystaran PCs found themselves in Faerun. The most important spell was Tongues for a long while.
Another time with a mute giant they had to communicate in basic sign language.
And similarly with your example, PCs translating ancient texts.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 25, 2022)

MockingBird said:


> Just out of curiosity, does language actually come up in everyone's game? I've used it but only written languages, like trying to translate a dead language no longer used.



I use it extensively in mine, both by PCs and NPCs, along with the obligatory dead languages written on the walls of tombs.


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## Lanefan (Aug 25, 2022)

MockingBird said:


> Just out of curiosity, does language actually come up in everyone's game?



Constantly.  There's often two or more PCs in the party who don't share a language in common, meaning they can't speak directly to each other except in the most very basic of terms; never mind the party as a whole trying to read found writings or speak to people in foreign lands.

There's probably well over 300 languages in my setting, by no means all of which do the PCs (or players) even know of yet - they've heard of maybe half of them.


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## Grantypants (Aug 25, 2022)

I don't love the Dragonborn racial feature that lets every Dragonborn automatically know Draconic. That might work for some settings, but I don't want it to be the default.


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## Mad_Jack (Aug 26, 2022)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> 2) D&D long ago tossed alignment languages into the trash can. It's probably time to do the same thing for *Druidic*, unless there's a compelling argument why they're more likely to have a secret language than other classes and why that secret language wouldn't just be Sylvan or Primordial. What special communications are the druids having -- and about what -- that they want to keep secret from dryads and water elementals? This is a weird holdover that doesn't seem to have a point. I've been playing since 1E and I've _never_ seen it used in game, as opposed to Thieves Cant, which is used regularly in my rogue-heavy games.




 I was never entirely certain why they had it in 1E, myself... Sure, it's part of the loosely-based-on-real-world-druids thing and helps differentiate them from just being a nature priest, but as mentioned it always seemed to make more sense for them to speak Sylvan.


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## jasper (Aug 26, 2022)

Please no to any version of alignment languages.  I am okay with the lower planes speaking two different languages and the upper planes speaking two.


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## Tales and Chronicles (Aug 27, 2022)

MockingBird said:


> Just out of curiosity, does language actually come up in everyone's game? I've used it but only written languages, like trying to translate a dead language no longer used.



I use them mostly like tools' proficiencies: if a PC tries a skill test and also use their proficiency with X language, I grant them advantage if it makes sense (History check to decipher old elvish stuff, persuading a goblinoid, spotting the lies of a gnome etc).


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## QuentinGeorge (Aug 27, 2022)

I use languages all the time in my games, but it’s part and parcel of my homebrew  setting and it’s myriad of nations and culture. The core games approach to language is hampered by the default settings aversion to by sort of implied culture, leaving it to wallow in the mire of racial essentialism as a poor substitute.


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## QuentinGeorge (Aug 27, 2022)

Minigiant said:


> I thInk it's beyond time for Mixed languages.
> 
> *Northcommon* for the mix of Dwarven, Giant, and Common spoke in areas with heavy integration with the Dwarves and Giant.
> 
> ...



That’s great, for a setting that has the cultural mixes that would produce that. Wouldn’t work in my setting.


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## Bagpuss (Dec 5, 2022)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> For starters, we're still perpetuating the idea that every member of a species is the member of a culture with a single language




Yeah but if you are going to have everyone speaking common, it's not like you are trying for realism. I'm not sure why they just don't say for languages, check with the particular campaign setting.


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## Pauln6 (Dec 5, 2022)

It has always seemed incongruous to me that they still don't have a distinction between basic, written, or fluent understanding.  Basic requires an intelligence check to understand, written means you can read and write the language but not necessarily speak it etc.

I'm not sure why literacy isn't something that is treated like a skill.  The only class ever stated to be illiterate previously was the barbarian.  Given that many D&D settings have been quasi-medieval where huge swathes of the population were uneducated or that many developing cultures had no written language this seems a curious oversight.  End of term parties at orc night school must be a riot.

It was obviously a conscious design choice that has endured but I wonder what was behind it?  Our barbarian player said he would like his character to learn some reading and writing skills but it seemed unrealistic that he would just become fluent.

Understanding complex writing or different dialects can easily be handled by an intelligence check though.  Understanding Glasweigan is not as easy as you might think.


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## Bagpuss (Dec 5, 2022)

Pauln6 said:


> It was obviously a conscious design choice that has endured but I wonder what was behind it?




It's a simplification so that DM's can give out cool handouts like, letters, decrees, wanted posters and have riddles that rely on language without the players going "Erm no of this makes any sense to be I haven't put any skill points/feats in literacy as Acrobatics and Weapon Focus seemed more useful."


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## aco175 (Dec 5, 2022)

UngeheuerLich said:


> One nice thing: thieves cant is just a language now.



The problem with this being its own language and not just slang of another language is that everyone will recognize you as a thief if you use it.  Kind of like knowing infernal, everyone will think you are a devil-worshiper.  Both will likely get you arrested or killed.  

The whole language thing likely will not be a big impact on my games since most of it gets hand-waved most of the time.


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## Pauln6 (Dec 5, 2022)

Bagpuss said:


> It's a simplification so that DM's can give out cool handouts like, letters, decrees, wanted posters and have riddles that rely on language without the players going "Erm no of this makes any sense to be I haven't put any skill points/feats in literacy as Acrobatics and Weapon Focus seemed more useful."



Well, I was thinking more along the lines that players could choose as the language options of their heritage/species/background/class.  The main difference would be you would get your native language e.g. Spoken Common (fluent) plus double the language slots you get now and you would choose how to populate them e.g: Written Common (basic), Spoken Goblin (basic); Written Goblin (basic), Spoken Elven (basic).

You can become fluent by taking the same language twice, like expertise.  Some people would focus on knowing a little about a lot of languages e.g. how to bluff past goblin, orc, or giant guards.  Some people on the written word only for deciphering as you suggest.  Plus bards, scholars, and linguists would get additional benefits over and above what they get now.


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## Krachek (Dec 5, 2022)

As a DM I use languages issue and challenge as I need.
languages can be a useful tool to add flavor and role play hook.
But they can be a pain and burden to manage too.
i never feel compelled to follow languages definition.


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## DEFCON 1 (Dec 5, 2022)

Obviously everyone is different and how they run their games is different... but I would venture a guess that the reason why we have just the languages we have is NOT due to so-called "World-building"... but instead is because D&D defaults to language basically being PUZZLES IN GAMEPLAY.

Every PC speaks Common so that every player at the table can talk to one another without having to jump through hoops in real communication.  It's a gameplay reason-- to make the game easier to play in a certain way (and those who wish to play it different by not having everyone speak Common is free to do so, it's just not made baseline.)

Any other language that then gets introduced or used by the DM is there to be a _challenge_ for the players to overcome.  The "foreign" language is not known by the players, and so as part of the _gameplay_... they have to "solve the puzzle" of figuring out what it being said.

The first and easiest step in "solving that puzzle" of course is to just check what languages each PC can speak.  That might "solve" the gameplay issue right there.  And in that regard... the fewer languages the game makes available, the more likely a PC does in fact have the requisite language needed to understand the hidden puzzle meaning.  The second step in the process of "solving the puzzle" is having the right Spells at hand to translate the writing.  This is still relatively easy if the party has the right Class available to it, but could still prove a stumbling block to the solution if it doesn't.  And if it doesn't... the third step of "solving the puzzle" is to try and suss it out perhaps by using Investigation rolls and decypher checks, or going off to find a Sage or a library in hopes that they can translate it, or any other gameplay solution the players can come up with to turn the unknown information into usable known information.

Which really means that how many languages a DM wants to make available in the campaign will oftentimes just come down to the odds they want to have in that any player's PC can translate the "code" of the foreign language just by having it written on their character sheet and not having to think about some other solution.  The more languages, the more likely no one will know the answer to the "code" without having to put in any work.

But _what_ those languages are doesn't really matter.  Whether it's other monster languages, alignment languages, sign languages, outer plane languages, weird dialects... a DM can just choose whatever they want.  Because at the end of the day their one and only use is to make the players have to solve the problem of not knowing what something/someone says, and then figuring it out.


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## the Jester (Dec 5, 2022)

I've been doing a lot of work on languages in my game for a while now. Much of this predates the One D&D playtest stuff; and my lists are incomplete as of yet, as I'm compiling them as I do a major edit of my monsters and am on "Varakhut" right now. Bearing that in mind, and with apologies for formatting issues, here's what I have so far:



			
				my notes said:
			
		

> *LANGUAGES IN CYDRA
> *Languages can be broken down into several (fairly arbitrary) categories.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Galandris (Dec 5, 2022)

Ruin Explorer said:


> An awful lot of people just assume there's "sign language" and that it's somehow international,




An awful lot of people do that with a vocal language as well.

It's extremely interesting that some posters here reads "common sign language" as the indication that it underlines the existence of other sign languages (as opposed to say an unmentionned draconic sign language) while I see it as a sign that they lump all cultural languages as Common and they simply apply the same logic to all the cultural signed language.


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## Tonguez (Dec 5, 2022)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> There's a lot of good stuff in the new languages lists:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I’ve always taken Druidic to be the set of gestures, body language and words that Druids use to speak to animal companions, then being used as a cant bewteen themselves. But yeah its not a biggy if it disappeared.

Thieves cants I’ve taken to be things like Cockney rhyming slang or Polari, used not just by thieves but also by theatre performers (Bards?), market hustlers, beggars, prostitutes and vagabonds. 

Common is a Creole that developed to allow communicatiin between different species across the trade network. It has become established as a first language among some urban humans, thus the mistaken notion that it is a ‘human’ language.

Anyway beyond that I loathe racial languages and dont use them, indeed Humans and Giants living in the same region are more likely to speak the same language than two sets of humans from different nations.  IMC I’ll thus use national or regional lamguages rather than racial ones.
of course there are certain species traits that might be common - eg Tabaxi language includes trills, growls and tail movements that express emotion and intent in a way that other races cant replicate (other than Druids )


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## Lojaan (Dec 6, 2022)

Racial languages are weird and should be dropped.

Knowing a language should mean you know about the culture too. 

So knowing the language (northern barbarian) would mean that you also effectively have the skill history & culture (northern barbarian) too.

Same for planar languages etc... You want to interpret an elementals behaviour? If you can speak primordial odds are you can.


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## Clint_L (Dec 6, 2022)

There's an irony that of all the things D&D took from Tolkien, the one thing it didn't take was the richness of languages in his world. Tolkien would have scoffed at the notion of there being one Elvish language!

That said, I'm not crazy about how languages are handled in the game, particularly the notion of racial languages. However, there's a pragmatic argument for keeping the number of languages limited. The more languages that you have in a setting, the less useful the language skill becomes. One way to go might be to make languages optional and then let each setting offer it's own guidelines - maybe organize languages more around regional clusters, as in the real world. So that fluency with one offered a bit of help in understanding related tongues at a simple level.

To be honest, although I do use different languages in game, I mostly just hand wave the issue when it isn't directly useful to the plot.


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## Knight_Marshal (Dec 6, 2022)

It never occurred to me that sign language was not universal. I always thought it was just one language that every deaf person learned. I do think it would be cooler if it worked that way.


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## Grantypants (Dec 6, 2022)

Using lots of languages in your campaign makes it more realistic, but for me it's one of those things, like tracking encumbrance or ammunition or spell components, that I mostly handwave away to keep the game moving. There's a reason most scifi ignores the difficulty that aliens would have in communicating. Unless there's an interesting story to be told about that difficulty, having language barriers gets in the way of the story you do want to tell.


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## SkidAce (Dec 6, 2022)

Grantypants said:


> Using lots of languages in your campaign makes it more realistic, but for me it's one of those things, like tracking encumbrance or ammunition or spell components, that I mostly handwave away to keep the game moving. There's a reason most scifi ignores the difficulty that aliens would have in communicating. Unless there's an interesting story to be told about that difficulty, having language barriers gets in the way of the story you do want to tell.



Speaking of interesting stories....

"_Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra_."


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## Grantypants (Dec 6, 2022)

SkidAce said:


> Speaking of interesting stories....
> 
> "_Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra_."



That's exactly the one I had in mind.


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## Yaarel (Dec 6, 2022)

Nice original post. 

On these in my campaigns:



Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> 6) That said, what do the residents of the Neutral Planes speak?



I have the Neutral immortals speak Primordial, and the Neutral Outer Plane be the same thing as the Elemental Chaos.



Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> What's the common language of Sigil?



Sigil is Neutral, whence its native language is Primordial, but it is cosmopolitan and multilingual.





Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Or the residents of the Shadowfell?



The residents of the Shadowfell speak the languages that they spoke in life. Shadowfell is inherently multilingual. There is no native Shadow language.





Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> For starters, residents of the Planes of Law, of everyone in the entire multiverse, would be super-keen to have their own language, spoken across half the Upper Planes. Taking a cue from 3E, call it "*Axiomatic*."



Axiomatic works for me. In my campaign, the Lawful immortals speak "Mechan".



Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Meanwhile, residents of the Planes of Chaos seem likely to speak their own local languages. There is no organization likely to impose a common language on everyone and the residents of these planes are too fractious to go along with it for long.



The Chaotic immortals speak "Liberan", prizing personal freedom above all else.





Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Another 2E language that has drifted into obscurity is *Jannti*, the language of genies. Xorn and frost salamanders are unlikely to sit around and chew the fat, but genies are all about seeing and being seen, visiting each others palaces and cities with great retinues and fanfare. They need a courtly language that lends itself to poetry, seduction, diplomacy and betrayal. (It also distinguishes them from other elementals, whom you know the genies look down on.)



Elemental creatures such as genies speak Primordial.






Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> What do you think?




History is the skill for languages and cultures, including decoding cyphers and solving riddles.

A History check can figure out an unknown language or an unfamiliar dialect.


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## Yaarel (Dec 6, 2022)

If I recall correctly, in previous editions, Thieves Cant isnt a separate language.

It is a method of using slang and double-entendres to communicate criminal information while speaking casually in plain sight.

The Cant can be highly detailed but takes longer to communicate.

Accordingly, any language can be used for Thieves Cant.


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## doctorbadwolf (Dec 8, 2022)

In my own game, I haven’t broken languages into levels of proficiency, but I do have a linguistics skill, and each language has related languages with degrees of relation. Eg, Spanish and Italian have a closer relationship than Latin and French, even though they’re all related languages. One use of Linguistics is to attempt to interpret a language you have either passing knowledge of, or proficiency in a related language. 

I’ve thought about treating languages as skills, and your Upbringing languages are always considered mastered, but you don’t spend skill ranks on them, they have their own pool of ranks.


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## Horwath (Dec 8, 2022)

Lojaan said:


> Racial languages are weird and should be dropped.
> 
> Knowing a language should mean you know about the culture too.
> 
> ...



FR did do regional languages, that could be considered as local culture.

But, I would not drop racial languages.

In a game where we have gods and clerics it's very easy to explain why whole race can speak the same language,

1. All clerics are mandated to know it, and by it, if you need any service of them, you will speak to them in that language.
Similar how church used Latin for centuries despite the local languages being different around Europe and the rest of the world.

2. "Gods did it". Divine intervention or genetic memory, you just know your racial language as you know how to breathe.
If you can teleport, or breathe fire or create darkness, you can know a language innately.

3. Traditions, as with clerics, we could say that specific racial language is only "official" language for state business.
All laws, decrees, royal charts and what not is only done in that language.
Sure, there can be translation for "common tongue" with that in pair, but racial language is mandatory.


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## kigmatzomat (Dec 8, 2022)

Tales and Chronicles said:


> I agree with everything. Not much to add, but having different elemental language and planar languages would make the whole thing more interesting.




Imo, Celestial and Primordial are the Common tongues of the Upper and Elemental Planes, with each divinity or elemental group having their own distinct languages.

I kind of like the idea that  Lower Planes have no Common tongue because a) nothing is easy and b) because of of the War. It keeps the grunts at the front lines from deciding that fighting each other is pointless and turning on the generals.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Dec 8, 2022)

kigmatzomat said:


> I kind of like the idea that  Lower Planes have no Common tongue because a) nothing is easy and b) because of of the War. It keeps the grunts at the front lines from deciding that fighting each other is pointless and turning on the generals.



There are normally common languages used in war, because you can't question prisoners, negotiate surrenders, etc., without one.


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## see (Dec 9, 2022)

The core problem is that there's no single, universally-satisfying answer to what to do with language. Realistic-historical language variance is a massive annoying pain (or a sink for spellcasting) unless your table is specifically getting fun from playing it. Everybody in the entire multiverse speaking the same language is obviously and jarringly unrealistic. _Every_ compromise between those two points simultaneously mixes some level of annoying pain with some level of jarring unrealism, and thus can be argued against from both sides simultaneously.

Given that, my personal opinion is the best way to handle things is to basically stick with the 5e list (which this does), which is itself a compromise of the 3.x and 4e lists (the 5e "Primordial with dialects" is, of course, a baltant compromise between the 3.x separate Aquan/Auran/Ignan/Terran and and 4e "Primordial" elemental language). 

I mean, adding "Common Sign Language" is fine. Swapping "Humans" out and "Anyone" in as speakers of Common is minor. Renaming "Exotic Languages" as "Rare Languages" is a fairly obvious "sensitivity" change. Putting Druidic and Thieves' Cant explicitly on the list is a change, but they were already mentioned in the 5e druid and rogue class entries.

But a deep rethink of the list, as being suggested in this thread, particularly for what's not supposed to be a major edition change? I don't think it gains enough to be worth the incompatibility with existing material. A bit in the DMG about "Languages in Your Campaign", now, that'd be potentially worthwhile . . .


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