# Best of the Best - Leaders.



## Kzach (Aug 17, 2009)

Ok, so it's been a couple of days since posting the last one of these and I feel that it's about time to move on to the next one. The poll was interesting as I feel there was a clear victor, which I wasn't really expecting, so it will be even more interesting to see if opinions are as clear-cut for the leader role as they are for the defender, considering IMO that all the leader classes are about as good as each other.

So, without further delay, I give you the Best of the Best Leaders poll!


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## MortalPlague (Aug 17, 2009)

It'll be interesting to see how this one goes.

I have played a battle cleric, and he was great fun.  He was not, however, a very effective leader, as far as the role was concerned.  It was a blast to wade into combat using righteous brand and priest's shield, mind you...

I've seen an inspiring, a tactical, and a bravura warlord in play, and all three were reasonably effective.  The tactical warlord in particular was an excellent healer, though this was because the player picked almost exclusively gear and powers that benefited this role.

I haven't seen much of the bard yet.  Nor any other leader class.


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## Jack99 (Aug 17, 2009)

I voted cleric, because to me, the most important aspect of a leader is the healing, and noone can quite heal like the cleric. At end paragon, the bonuses he gives on healing powers often eclipse the value of the healing surge for none-fighter classes, which makes a huge difference.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 17, 2009)

That's a hard one. 

I really enjoy playing my Inspiring Warlord, and I think he kicks ass, takes names and heals a lot (and still has other "buffs").
The Devoted or Shielding Cleric probably can't be beaten in terms of healing power provided. 

I haven't seen enough from the other ones to make a good judgement on their strengths and overall "power" in the role. 

I think I'll go with the "fun" option for me - Inspiring Warlord.


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## Victim (Aug 17, 2009)

I've seen: laser cleric, melee cleric, tactical warlord, inspiring warlord, and prescient bard.

I really enjoyed playing my tactical lord, but his healing ability was somewhat weak.  Moreover, newer feats mean that characters are more accurate, so the large to hit buffs provided by the tactician are somewhat less important.

Laser clerics seem like they might be the best overall.  They have good area attacks that are generally selective, and can provide large heals.  Divine Oracle and Radiant Servant are both strong PPs too.  Their biggest weakness is a lack of good save granting ability besides Sacred Flame.

Prescient Bard is interesting because the class seems to work by interrupting things.  While it didn't seem to be incredibly effective, it did seem to really annoy the DM.  

I wasn't really impressed with Inspiring Warlords, but they probably do the best as "fighty guy with heals."  They're also very good at granting saves.


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## Nymrohd (Aug 17, 2009)

Bear shaman, awesome control, good healing and protection.


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## Kzach (Aug 17, 2009)

Hmm, so far it seems that people are split on what really defines a leader, and therefore vote towards what they think represents their ideal.

I voted the valourous bard since I felt the bards powers combined with the valourous temp hit points really epitomises the leader role.


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## jbear (Aug 17, 2009)

Nymrohd said:


> Bear shaman, awesome control, good healing and protection.



Agreed. Well underrated. Very easy to step outside the box with the Shaman's Spirit... and the level 1 Daily Spirit  of the Healing Flood... pure awesome!


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## C_M2008 (Aug 17, 2009)

Leading is about setting up your team to win. Tac-lords do it best.
granting Movement, extra attacks, to Hit bonuses and solid healing give them flexibility and the best tools to do the job.


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## Mr. Wilson (Aug 17, 2009)

Taclords are great....if you have enough melee to make them shine.  Their one downfall is sub-optimal healing, but they have the highest party nova capability.

I have to vote for the Laser cleric.  He has at wills that buff party members, and the healing capability by the end of paragon is pretty crazy.

That said, if you have at least 2-3 other melee PCs, Taclords are the right choice.


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## Vael (Aug 17, 2009)

Honestly, it depends on the party. Taclords rule parties of hard-hitting meleers. Battlesmiths can make multi-attackers brutal (quite literally if they go Battle Engineer). Shielding Clerics can bring low defence parties back from the brink to full health. Bards offer a lot of flexibility.

One thing I just noticed ... no leader class uses DEX as a primary or secondary stat. We need stealth leaders!


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## thecasualoblivion (Aug 17, 2009)

I've seen a lot of these in play. Tops among leaders in my opinion are the Tactical Warlord, Valorous Bard, and Devoted Cleric, with the Valorous Bard getting the nod for its all around solidity with few drawbacks. Temp HP for bloodying and zeroing enemies is killer, and with Con as a secondary stat you don't go down easy.


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## Vael (Aug 17, 2009)

I dunno, I'm playing a valourous bard, and don't get me wrong, I love it. But until I started getting temp hitpoints (Valourous effect is only for allies, I didn't get the benefit until War Chanter), often the effect would be wasted, as the PC would still have temp hitpoints.


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## Herschel (Aug 17, 2009)

Vael said:


> Honestly, it depends on the party. Taclords rule parties of hard-hitting meleers. Battlesmiths can make multi-attackers brutal (quite literally if they go Battle Engineer). Shielding Clerics can bring low defence parties back from the brink to full health. Bards offer a lot of flexibility.
> 
> One thing I just noticed ... no leader class uses DEX as a primary or secondary stat. We need stealth leaders!




*SNEAK, SNEAK, SNEAK* "Hey guys, the Beholder and his gaggle of giants are right in front of me. Come up and get 'em!" 

Otherwise, I agree. I like Clerics and Tactical Warlords but am having fun playing the Prescient Bard the couple of times I have.


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## Thanee (Aug 17, 2009)

The most important aspect of leaders is the healing and clerics are clearly the best at that (at least as far as I have seen).

Devoted Cleric (because they have less issues with MADness).

Bye
Thanee


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## Umbran (Aug 17, 2009)

This is pretty specifically a 4e question, hinging on rules.  So moved to 4e rules.


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## Obryn (Aug 17, 2009)

I love Tactical Warlords, so I picked them.  On the other hand, I think Artificers bring a bag full of awesome to the Leader party.  The Battlesmith in my game is very, very good at what he does - it's Bonus City with him, he does a lot of damage, and pseudo-surgeless-healing is pretty damn awesome.

-O


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## Dice4Hire (Aug 17, 2009)

I chose cleric, as they are great healers, good with radiant, and have a couple strong builds. (Wisdom or Strength) that makes for good versatility. Plus I cannot think of a party composition or a monster opponent wher they would not be welcome. With their different builds they are fun to play also.

Taclords are limited to a melee-heavy, and preferably multiple opponents. Plus, I try hard to like them, but I jsut cannot. 

Bards have great flavor, but a lot of their power are just not very impressive. They try to do too much and I think it hurts the bard's ability to do things in combat. They are fun to play also.


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## Marshall (Aug 17, 2009)

TacLord - Hands down the best party buffer
Cunning Bard - Leads by giving loads of "Get out of Jail Free" cards
Artificer - THE best healer. Sorry Cleric lovers, "Take spare surges from non-melee classes and apply to melee" beats all the CLR bonuses combined. Good buffs, too.


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## DracoSuave (Aug 17, 2009)

The role of a leader is to swing the battle and allow the party to overcome greater odds.

Every single leader in the game is an effective healer.  Healing isn't necessarily like damage-dealing, moar is not always the best option.

So I went with Tactical Warlord.

His healing covers the defensive bonus, but then his offensive buffing compliments that by reducing the number of rounds the enemy is wailing on you.

The Taclord's bonuses are multiplicating, not additive, unlike the Cleric.


The Artificer is proving to be a worthy competitor for this spot tho.  Magic Weapon is crazy for an at-will.


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## Kzach (Aug 17, 2009)

Umbran said:


> This is pretty specifically a 4e question, hinging on rules.  So moved to 4e rules.




Goddammit, no it's bloody-well not.

I swear you're more disruptive than any troll.


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## Garthanos (Aug 17, 2009)

Well since I am not very interested in subjects that are not focused on 4e ... something in the general category... which might as well mean AD&D or Pathfinder or something ... I just dont go there ;-), where as the role leader and build types identified are rather 4e naming conventions and the latter imply the rules ... I think I will agree with Umbran.


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## Kzach (Aug 18, 2009)

By this definition, EVERY 4e thread belongs in the rules forum and EVERY Pathfinder thread belongs in the Pathfinder forum and EVERY... you get the picture.

This was not a rules discussion. Nobody was asking about the rules. There were no questions about the rules posed. It was simply a preference poll.

If this kind of ridiculousness in moderation is going to be the future, then you may as well make a 4e general discussion forum. Hell, do away with the general general discussion forum altogether, because every thread is going to get pigeonholed by one faction or another anyway.


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## Garthanos (Aug 18, 2009)

Umm well from my pov, I wouldnt mind a 4e General forum (its exactly what I would suggest). As I said I could care less about pf or AD&D or any of the others... and so the few times I found myself hunting through the general forum because something got moved there from here... were annoying because of it.


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## Jools (Aug 18, 2009)

Garthanos said:


> Umm well from my pov, I wouldnt mind a 4e General forum (its exactly what I would suggest). As I said I could care less about pf or AD&D or any of the others... and so the few times I found myself hunting through the general forum because something got moved there from here... were annoying because of it.




 Yeah, a 4e forum for 4e stuff would do me just fine. This current setup feels a bit odd.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 18, 2009)

Jools said:


> Yeah, a 4e forum for 4e stuff would do me just fine. This current setup feels a bit odd.



I think this is also an interesting topic and it should be forked (either to General or Meta), because this thread is about something else.


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## Kzach (Aug 18, 2009)

On the matter of the poll it has been interesting to see that opinion is far more divided on the leader front. Still, it does seem like there's a clear winner in the Taclord.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 18, 2009)

Seems like a majority thinks that great healing is not necessarily the best ability for a Dragon to have.

I wonder how much this is based on actual "power" concerns, and how much it is because it's more fun to many to give out buffs then merely to heal?


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## tiornys (Aug 18, 2009)

It may also be related to the power of paragon paths.  Divine Oracle, Battle Captain, and War Chanter are definitely three of the best PP's out there, and the corresponding builds lead the rest by a wide margin.

t~


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## Then (Aug 18, 2009)

I went with Bard,  I've played or seen played all of the others, but for pure Leaderness I dont think anything comes close to the bard.


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## Panthine (Aug 19, 2009)

Goddammit all bow before the Artificer
 - Restorative formula gives a +1 AC boost until used and temp hp is DOUBLED for a feat @ paragon
- Sharing of party healing surges (you know some guys never use em all)
- INSANE at-will Magic weapon
- Temp HP buffer just for using a magic item daily NEAR one!
- Recharging magic daily item powers FTW!


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## Rothe_ (Aug 19, 2009)

Artificers don't get a lot of votes because they are Eberron stuff. I would guess that less than half of the players voting have actually even used any eberron stuff at all.

I voted for Valorous Bard. I think it has great potential and I also had one epic Valorous Bard/Warchanter in our party played by a friend - that one also had a nice epic destiny (forgot the name) that gave our party awesome buffs and played with quite nice AP related abilities too in some really tough fights.

As someone else mentioned, healing is not he only important thing. In fact, a decent healer that has good buffs is a lot better leader in my opinion than one who focuses strictly on healing.


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## Camelot (Aug 19, 2009)

I love bards on a personal level, because if I lived in medieval times, I'd be a bard.  =)  Plus, you can annoy the heck out of everyone else at the table with singing and poems and stuff!  All in good fun of course.

However, I voted for the tinkerer artificer, because I think that creating clockwork battle machines is pure awesome, and they way Healing Infusion works, you can heal but anyone can spend the healing surge for the player who got healed.  So, you can spread your healing surges around to those who need them more than you!


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## Turtlejay (Aug 19, 2009)

So the goal here is to do this once for each role. . .then what?

Do a poll for each winner, to decide the best race.  Tactical Warlord is winning this one, so do a poll for which race makes the best one.

Then build the ultimate 4 man party as decided by the forum.  Maybe make another thread about the best 5th man to have.

I kind of think this is a tough call, since you can focus a leader in a couple of different ways.  Healer or buffer both spring to mind.

Jay


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## Kzach (Aug 20, 2009)

Turtlejay said:


> Then build the ultimate 4 man party as decided by the forum.  Maybe make another thread about the best 5th man to have.



Pretty much.

It all started with a discussion I had elsewhere where we noted that 4e has no iconic characters like 3e did and that we should make up our own. That then moved into an argument over which classes and races were 'iconic'.

At first, it was going to be all races and classes available via the Character Builder, but later we decided that it should be PHB core only. Hence why the polls include non-PHB core classes and why now (in the race polls) I'm restricting it to PHB core only.

At the end of the day, it's just some fun and a means to spark conversation. I've certainly enjoyed the polls so far.


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## DracoSuave (Aug 20, 2009)

As an aside, the best 5th man is not Snails.

Therefore, the best 5th man must be anti-Snails.

What is the Anti-Snails?  Discuss.


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## Camelot (Aug 20, 2009)

Some of the best races are in non-PHB supplements: Genasi, Drow, Changelings, Warforged, and the cool monster races.  I don't think you should limit it to PHB races, but remember that the people who only have the core books will vote for the races they've experienced, from the PHBs, and therefore even if you include other races, the PHB races will have a better chance of winning.


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## Garthanos (Aug 21, 2009)

Camelot said:


> Some of the best races are in non-PHB supplements: Genasi, Drow, Changelings, Warforged, and the cool monster races.  I don't think you should limit it to PHB races, but remember that the people who only have the core books will vote for the races they've experienced, from the PHBs, and therefore even if you include other races, the PHB races will have a better chance of winning.




On this I agree... Genasi dont do much for me but the others you mention do and Minotaurs are cool too.


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## Lucas Blackstone (Aug 21, 2009)

I'm really surprised the Warlord is so far ahead. Healing is what the leader is all about and Clerics dominate, especially with the addition of Divine power.

It your foes are played intelligently, they will easily focus fire down group members and the poor healing of the Warlord will not pull you through. Granted some fights the enemies shouldn't fight as effectively as others ( lets say oozes as compared to actually intelligent foes ) but in general if your foes are intelligent they will use the same tactics as PCs, the most important of those being focus firing.


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## Destil (Aug 21, 2009)

Wow, can't believe the Tactical Warlord is winning this one. Haven't there been numerous threads on how that's a generally underpowered build? Maybe people are starting to see the value of teamwork.

Anyway, I'm still for devoted cleric. Awesome at wills, extra healing, great bonus tossing powers and a controller suite that made the PHB wizard cry.  What more do you need? (Battle Cleric likewise gets credit for Brand and Warpriest).


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 21, 2009)

Lucas Blackstone said:


> I'm really surprised the Warlord is so far ahead. Healing is what the leader is all about and Clerics dominate, especially with the addition of Divine power.
> 
> It your foes are played intelligently, they will easily focus fire down group members and the poor healing of the Warlord will not pull you through. Granted some fights the enemies shouldn't fight as effectively as others ( lets say oozes as compared to actually intelligent foes ) but in general if your foes are intelligent they will use the same tactics as PCs, the most important of those being focus firing.



Poor healing of the Warlord? I have to wait till the end of the battle until my Inspiring Warlord has a chance to actually use most of his encounters or dailies. Way too much healing would go to waste otherwise.


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## Tallifer (Aug 23, 2009)

In our party, the wizard needs a tactical warlord to reliably hit with his most important daily spells. Otherwise that big bad evil magician just keeps blasting the party to smithereens.

The fighter might like the extra healing of a cleric, although in fact it is the softer warlord the enemies like to swarm in the round or two before the fighter can mark them.

The archer likes the occasional boost from the warlord.


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## doctorhook (Aug 23, 2009)

Victim said:


> I really enjoyed playing my tactical lord, but his healing ability was somewhat weak.  Moreover, newer feats mean that characters are more accurate, so the large to hit buffs provided by the tactician are somewhat less important.



I really like my TacLord and his status as party-lynchpin.

Can anyone verify the extent to which Victim's statement is true?


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