# E6: The Game Inside D&D



## Ry

_Note to mods:  E6 was born in House Rules, but I ran the idea of posting in General past Piratecat a while ago, and it’s finally ready for the bigtime.  Thanks!

This is E6’s sixth major incarnation here at EN World; in this thread I hope to talk about preparing E6 games, how to talk to skeptical players about E6, and your actual play experiences with E6.  The E6 and Raising the Stakes .pdfs are attached to this post.  Enjoy!_

*E6: The Game Inside the World’s Most Popular RPG*

*What is E6?*

Earlier this year a fellow named Ryan Dancey suggested that d20 has four distinct quartiles of play:

Levels 1-5: Gritty fantasy
Levels 6-10: Heroic fantasy
Levels 11-15: Wuxia
Levels 16-20: Superheroes

There’s been some great discussion at EN World and elsewhere about how to define those quartiles, and how each group eventually finds the quartiles that suit them best.

E6 is a game about d20’s first two quartiles, and focuses on continuously delivering exciting heroic fantasy, even in a very long campaign.  Like d20, E6 can be adapted to a wide variety of settings, from high-magic action-adventure where magic takes the place of technology to low-magic worlds where sorcerers are spoken of in frightened whispers and dragons are the stuff of legend.  E6 keeps all the benefits and familiarity of low-level d20 games:  Fast-paced combat, quick prep, and an incredible wealth of third-party material that can be used with the game.  E6 has been playtested extensively, and its rules that can be explained to veteran d20 players in under a minute.

*How E6 works*

Like d20, E6 is a game of enigmatic wizards, canny rogues, and mighty warriors who rise against terrible dangers and overcome powerful foes.  But instead of using d20’s 20 levels to translate characters into the rules, E6 uses only the first 6.  E6 is about changing one of d20’s essential assumptions, but it doesn't need a lot of rules to make that change.

To understand E6, imagine the perspective of the average medieval peasant in a d20 game.  This person has the stats of a 1st-level commoner, and while they might not know their stats explicitly, they know their relation to the rest of the world.  Our peasant knows that he can be killed quite easily by maurauding raiders, enemy soldiers, or even wild animals.  He’s not mighty, he’s not organized, and he doesn’t have any special skills to bring to bear when danger strikes.  He worries about drought and flood, and the welfare of his livestock.  His extended family likely all lives within a mile of his birthplace.  To him, a trip to a town ten miles off is an expedition into the unknown.

Imagine you are this peasant, and you meet a trio of 6th-level adventurers.  When you address the wizard, you are speaking to someone who could incinerate your home and slay all your livestock with a few words.  The fighter has prevailed against a dozen orcish skirmishers and slain them all – and he could do the same again.  The cleric is a man so holy that the gods themselves have granted him the power to cure the sick and heal the wounded.  These are epic heroes.

Now consider the powers of a CR 5 manticore.  To the peasant, the appearance of this manticore near the village isn’t a nuisance: the beast can, and likely will slay you in seconds if you draw its attention.  You, your livestock, and your entire family are in immediate danger of violent death.  Even if you were well armed and gathered a  large peasant militia, your village faces heavy losses and no guarantee of success.  Against such a creature, adventurers may be your only hope.  E6 recognizes that 6th level characters are mortal, while reframing the game’s perspective to create a context where those same 6th level characters are epic heroes.

*What levels mean in E6*

Levels 1 to 6 are a period when a character comes into his own, and a crash course in action and danger transforms them from 1st-level commoners to veteran adventurers (or corpses).  Once transformed by their experiences, a character’s growth is no longer a continuous, linear progression.  Instead, they specialize or broaden their abilities: There are still major differences between the master warriors and the veteran mercenaries, but it's not a change of scale.  This change in progression, which we see frequently in fantasy literature, is modeled through the acquisition of feats.

*Rules*

Character progression from level 1 to level 6 is as per d20. Upon attaining 6th level, for each 5000 experience a character gains, they earn a new feat.  A diverse selection of feats should be made available in any E6 campaign, however, feats with unattainable prerequisites under this system remain unattainable.  

For the purpose of experience awards, treat each 5 feats as +1 CR (or level), to an upper limit of 20 feats.  After this, it becomes more and more difficult to bring all a character’s feats to bear in a given situation; although they continue to gain feats, 6th level characters with more than 20 feats can continue to be treated as if they were level 10 for experience and challenge purposes.

*Monsters and Items in E6*

Just as level 6 parties in d20 aren’t expected to tangle with monsters higher than CR 10, the mighty monsters of E6 require special consideration for presentation in-game.  E6 characters aren't intended to go up against high-level d20 threats under the same circumstances as high-level d20 characters; those creatures, if they are defeatable at all, require the kind of resources and planning far beyond the typical d20 dungeon encounter.

In terms of raw rules, CR 7-10 monsters are an excellent guide for what 6th level characters can handle.  As a party approaches 6th level plus 20 feats, that range also increases, and PCs are able to fight monsters with base CRs in the range of CR 9 to 12, or larger groups of lower-level monsters.  If a campaign continues beyond this point (and congratulations, because that’s a lot of gaming) a GM should take monsters in the CR 7-12 range and use feats (and to a lesser extent templates) to advance them.  Hit die or class-based advancement beyond CR 12, or base monsters above CR 12 should generally be avoided as straight-up fights in any E6 campaign.

Of course, not every monstrous encounter is a straight-up fight. For example, insane horrors from another age might be a reason to run, and there is little a character could do in the face of an angry Titan. But these situations don’t call for direct confrontation, except with some special resource or amazing circumstance. Perhaps, in a special ritual with the presence of 20 mages, a Titan can be bound to the mortal realm (lowering its stats to a Hill Giant with the spells of a 6th-level sorcerer), with whom the players can do battle. Again, that's far from a straight-up fight with a CR 20 creature, but we can console ourselves with the fact that it's probably a very memorable encounter.

Items follow a similar approach.  If, as a result of the restrictions on items, an item cannot be created, then it should not be distributed as normal treasure.  Like high-level monsters, such items should be placed carefully and built to make sense in the context of your game.  For example, a +4 sword is an amazing artifact in this setting, perhaps even made by the gods: It's a sword no mortal could make.

[sblock=Benefits of E6]1. Very fast play at every level of the campaign.
2. Focus on planning, not levelling. To defeat the black dragon Zolanderos, the CR 10 terror of Staunwark Island, the heroes will need help, special resources, and information. I want to further encourage party-directed adventuring, and if the heroes want to take on something 4 to 6 CR above them, then that's what they will require.
3. A low magic game that everyone knows how to play.
4. Never a need for meaningless encounters. The players can be involved in a dozen or so major combat scenarios (perhaps more than one encounter each) and have proven themselves and made a major accomplishment. See Lord of the Rings movies, or most fantasy novels.
5. Classic monsters stay classic throughout the campaign; Chimeras and Aboleths start scary, and stay scary. Dragons are always exciting encounters.
6. Even legendary heroes remain mortal; while a 6th level fighter who has taken toughness several times can take on a good mob, he isn't invulnerable. The sorcerer's 6d6 fireballs are phenomenal, but not so powerful that he can destroy a village and not fear retaliation.
7. Quicker prep. Make a 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 6th version of a sorcerer, and now you have a whole sorcerous dragon-cult that can last you through your whole campaign.
8. You can put what you've learned of the rules to good use. It's hard to know every 4th through 9th level spell out there; they're the ones we see the least. But we've seen 0th through 3rd level spells many, many times, and mastery over them is relatively simple.
9. E6 is a great system for on the fly GMing.  If you’re reasonably familiar with what a 2nd level threat looks like, power-wise, you can probably get away with running it without stats handy.[/sblock][sblock=E6 vs d20]
Here's how I see E6 vs standard d20, in terms of power levels. 

Character advancement in d20 is an upward sloping curve; levels are a linear, but the feats and magic items that get added on top makes the progression even faster.  As players get better and better combinations of items and feats and class abilities, they can combine them in better and better ways.  This leads to levelling out of the Heroic Fantasy quartile (6-10) and into the Wuxia quartile (11-15).  The Wuxia quartile is also more complex, which is another mark against it for some.







Levelling in E6 is like d20 till 6th level, and a character never stops advancing.  But feat-based advancement is naturally slower than level-based advancement, and while you keep getting closer and closer to CR 10 power level, you're getting there more and more slowly; feats always add a mechanical benefit, but the combinations and permutations of the feats and items you've acquired don't "crack the top" of CR 10 power level.  








E6 will always inherit d20's balance issues at the same level, especially issues that result from scenarios where those characters d20 characters have long periods of downtime.  The best approach is to be cognizant of these issues when considering what feats to allow in your E6 game.[/sblock]*Extra Feats*

There several philosophies on what feats to allow in an E6 game, but in any long-running E6 game some expansion feats should be made available for players to continue to grow their characters in different ways.  

Which feats you allow depends on what you want for your own game.  Some GMs want to encourage single-classing, others are happy to tell their players to work within a framework, choosing only those feats that match the style of their campaign.  Some want to see more gestalt-style characters and allow feat chains towards specific classes’ abilities.  Many GMs make a real-world decision, allowing feats from publishers they trust, or all feats from the books the GM owns.  The original E6 campaign allowed feats on an ad-hoc basis; players were encouraged to develop various aspects of their characters rather than linear power, but were allowed to suggest feats if they couldn’t find something that worked in the available rules.  Ultimately, the decision on what feats to allow belongs to the GM, and should naturally vary from one E6 campaign to the next.

All of these feats should be considered suggestions – each E6 game is different and it is always up to the individual GM what they want to allow.

[sblock=For Ability Advancement]*Ability Training (General)*
You spend time honing one of your Abilities: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma.
Benefit: Choose one Ability; treat that Ability as having a +2 bonus to that Ability Score whenever you are making an Ability Check.  This bonus does not count when making a skill check or for any other use of that ability. 
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, its effects do not stack.  Each time you take this feat it applies to another ability.

*Ability Advancement (General)*
Your training pays off, and one of your Abilities increases.  
Prerequisite: Ability Training in the same ability.
Benefit: Choose one Ability.  You gain a permanent +2 bonus to that ability.  This bonus does nto stack with the benefit from Ability Training.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, its effects do not stack.  Each time you take this feat it applies to another ability.[/sblock][sblock=Capstone Feats]*Martial Veteran (General)* (comrade_raoul)
Prerequisites: Fighter level 6th.
Benefit: You may select feats with a requirement of up to fighter level 8, and with a Base Attack Bonus requirement of up to +8.
Special: A fighter may select Martial Veteran as one of his bonus feats.

*Roguish Ability  [General] *
Prerequisite: Rogue 6
Benefit:  You learn one rogue special ability.
Special: This feat may be taken only once.

*Barbaric Resilience [General] *
Prerequisite: Barbarian 6
Benefit: You gain DR 1/-- 

*Skill Beyond Your Years*
Prerequisite: Level 6
Pick a skill. Your max ranks rise from Level+3 to Level +5. 

*Holy Strikes [General] *
Prerequisite: Paladin 6
Benefit: Your melee attacks are considered good for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

*Mighty Wild Shape [General] *
Prerequisite: Druid level 6
Choose 1 Large animal. You can wildshape into that animal.

*Bardic Inspiration [General] *
Prerequisite: Bard level 6
The bonus granted by your inspire courage ability increases to +2.

*Extra Domain Power [General] (Shazman)*
Prerequisites: Wis 18 +, Cleric level 6, Knowledge (religion) 9 ranks, Skill Focus: Knowledge (religon)
Benefit: You gain the domain power of one additional domain associated with your deity.  You may only take this feat once.

*Extra Domain Access (General)* (Shazman)
Prerequisities: Wis 18 +, Cleric level 6, Knowledge (religion) 9 ranks, Extra Domain Power, Skill Focus: Knowledge (religion)
Benefit: You gain access to the domain spell list of one additional domain assciated with your deity.  This domain must be the same one as that chosen for the Extra Domain Power feat. You may only take this feat once.

*Restoration (General)*
Prerequisites: 6th level, ability to cast 3rd-level divine spells, Wisdom 18, Healing 9 Ranks
Benefit: You can use _Restoration_, as the spell (paying the material component), with a casting time of 1 hour.

*Swift Metamagic (Metamagic)* (Kunimatyu)
Prerequisite: Metamagic feats (see below), Caster Level 6
Benefit: When you take this feat, select a metamagic feat. As a swift action once per day, you may apply this metamagic feat to a spell you cast with no adjustment to the level of the spell cast.
Special: You must have a number of Swift metamagic feats equal to the level increase of your chosen metamagic, minus one, to take this feat. For example, Empower Spell, which boosts the level of a spell by 2, has a prerequisite of 1 Swift feat. Split Ray, which has an increase of 1, would have no prerequisites. This feat may be taken multiple times.

*Caster Training (General)* (Khuxan)
You become a more accomplished spellcaster.
Requirements: Character level 6, caster level 1 or greater.
Benefit: Your caster level increases by 4, to a maximum of 6.   Note this only affects Caster Level (i.e., more dice on your damage, no new spells or slots).

*Expanded Knowledge (General)* (PoeticJustice)
Prerequisite: Character Level 6th
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class in which you have levels. You gain an additional spell known at any level you can cast from that class's spell list.

*Expanded Casting (General)* (PoeticJustice)
Prerequisite: Character Level 6th
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class in which you have levels. You gain an additional spell slot at any level you can already cast.

*Stone to Flesh (General)*
Prerequisites: 6th level, ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells, Intelligence 18, Craft (Alchemy) 9 Ranks
Benefit: You can use _stone to flesh_, as the spell, with an expensive and secret magical ingredient with a market value of 1000 gp and a casting time of 1 day.

*Excelling Flurry [General]*
Prereq: Monk 6
Benefit: You use Flurry of Blows with no penalty to your attack bonus. In addition, you qualify for feats that a Monk may take as 6th level bonus feats.

*Step of the Wild lands*
Prereq: Ranger 6
Benefit: You gain the Woodland Stride and Swift Tracking class abilities.

*Wondrous Rings (General)*
Prerequisites: 6th level, Craft Wondrous Item
Benefit: You treat rings as wondrous items for the purpose of meeting item creation prerequisites.  You must still meet caster level requirements for any ring you create.[/sblock][sblock=For Villains]*Mental Domination (General)* (Lord Tirian)
You're able to subjugate certain people's mind.
Prerequisite: Having charmed humanoid with HD equal or less than your caster level.
Benefit: Choose a humanoid with HD equal your caster level or less, you have currently charmed. Treat charm person as dominate person against this person.
Special: This feat can be taken several times. It applies to a different humanoid each time.[/sblock]

*PDFs*

E6.pdf
Raising the Stakes.pdf

_This will be my last revision of E6 for a while; the idea has clearly gotten across, and now it’s time to play my home campaign and work on some of my other design priorities.  Thanks to everyone who’s asked questions, set up your own campaigns with E6, and challenged me to improve E6’s writing and presentation.  You guys are the best._


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## Ry

*FAQ, Play Aids, and Links*

*FAQ, Play Aids, and Links*

[sblock=FAQ: Using E6]_Q: So characters just stop levelling at 6?_
A: That’s right.  Characters who have reached level 6 have proven themselves, but this extremely rapid growth does not go on forever.  Instead, they master specialized techniques, or become more versatile.  This stage of a character’s development is represented by gaining new feats.

_Q: Does E6 change the stacking rules?  For example, can I take Weapon Focus twice and have it stack?  Can I take Skill Focus twice and have it stack?_
A:  The stacking rules remain the same as in standard D&D.

_Q: What if I want there to be a higher level magical effect, but still use E6?_
The rules for rituals in Unearthed Arcana are an excellent fit for E6, to support things like opening portals to another dimension, higher-level divinations, and so on.  When a spell is a 3-day event requiring 20 mages, it’s more of a plot point than a spell itself, and that maeks it a great a springboard for challenging the players.

_Q:  As a DM, I like running things on the fly.  Can E6 support that kind of play?_
A:  Absolutely.  A DM that knows how to estimate the abilities of enemies in the low-level range can use that knowledge throughout the campaign.  Likewise, familiarity breeds mastery – and for feats, spells, and monsters, there is more chance for a DM to become familiar with abilities in an appropriate range to the PCs, even if he is using a diverse selection of monsters.  Furthermore, Dungeon Masters can get much more mileage out of their previous work: The stats of a 5th-level sorcerer written for 4th level PCs is still a useful tool months of gametime later against characters who are 6th level +10 feats.

_Q: Can you make high-level items as a low-level caster in E6? _
A: No, caster level requirements for magic items are treated as hard requirements.  

_Q:  If a character took multiple classes, or Prestige Classes, suddenly you've got a guy with saves that are seriously out of whack.  Is this a game-breaking issue? _
A:  If you multiclass that much, you're probably doing it to get the saves.  In that situation, your saves _are_ your special ability.  Moreover, saves are passive abilities; the player doesn't control when their character uses a save, which gives them limited appeal compared to stuff the player can control.  So if a player goes after them like crazy, and succeeds in having really exceptional saves – let them have their fun.

_Q: I prefer stopping at around 8th level, does that work for this system? _
A: The system will probably work about as well at 8th level, but note that “Epic 6th” characters do end up being more powerful than regular 6th level characters.  Epic 6th may be what you want for a game that sits at the power level for Level 8, and Epic 8th may cater more closely to Level 10 style play.

_Q: Does E6 work with a slower progression to level 6?  Does it work when characters are created at 2nd level?_
Yes and yes.  I've tried both during my playtesting period.  I'll be starting my new game at 3rd level.

_Q: I’m not a big fan of experience points.  Do you need a strict XP system to make E6 work?_
A:  An ad-hoc "gain a feat" approach would work absolutely 100% with this system.  I used to do that with other systems (power up when the story makes it appropriate) and given the fact that the upper end of the power curve flattens off, that method should go very smoothly with E6.

_Q: Can you use Prestige Classes with E6?_
A: I’d recommend taking the same approach you take in your regular D&D game.  If you allow Prestige Classes there, feel free to allow them here.  Of course, characters capped at 6th level can usually take at most 1 level of a Prestige Class.

_Q: With only 6 levels, how do races with a level adjustment work?_
If you use races with a level adjustment, the 6th level cap is a big issue. Use the point buy rules in the DMG as follows:
LA Point buy
+0 32
+1 25
+2 18
+3 10
+4 00

Thus, +LA races should start with zero LA, but use the point buy listed here.  Keep in mind the difference between LA and racial hit dice (the two combine to give starting ECL).[/sblock][sblock=FAQ: Why is E6 designed this way?]_Q: Where did E6 come from?_
A:  E6 was inspired by the article _Gandalf was a Fifth-Level Magic User_ by Bill Seligman.  The article was published in The Dragon (which became Dragon magazine) in issue #5, March 1977.  When I first had the concept of E6, where we used the first six levels for the whole game, my very first step was pitching it to my players.  Some thought it was a great idea, and the rest were willing to give it a try, so I gave it a shot.  E6 worked really well for our tastes, and we've done lots of playing inside E6 since then. Back then E6 was a lot more convoluted than it is now: there were intricate quasi-gestalt rules and several other little things that weren’t so much about the cap as they were about my group’s thoughts on D&D class balance. Over time, we found that the only rules we were really using (on both sides of the screen) were the feat rules, and that was producing a great play experience. So when I returned to E6 just recently, that’s how I wrote it up: As it was actually played.

_Q: Why 6th level for the cap?  Why not 12th, or 20th? _
A: My experience in D&D is that at around 6th level the characters are really nicely balanced, both in terms of balance against other classes, and against the CR system.  Also, there was an element of setting assumptions; each class is strong enough that they're well defined in their role, but not so strong that lower-level characters don't matter to them any more.  

_Q:  How did you arrive at the cost of 5000 xp per feat post 6th level?_
A:  Originally, I considered that if I wasn’t giving level 7, maybe 2 feats for the same price would be a good comprimise (3000xp / feat).  That way they would have this great feeling of advancement without popping the top off the power level."  But in play, the players found it was so fast that they did not have time to enjoy their new abilities.  There just wasn't time in-game for their characters to grow, so I upped the cost to 5000 xp, and it works like a charm.

_Q: Why not use [system of character points / experience purchases / incremental gestalt rules] instead of E6?_
A:  Feats, if they don't work out in a particular case, are less controversial to tweak than, say, the XP table.  If you find out that the XP table, or stats, or whatever else you've changed doesn't work for some players, it's a big deal to change it because it then affects everyone - and sometimes has effects that cascade through the system.  

I have found that if a feat is too good, it's not that big a deal to say "Hey Ned, I think the feat I made for you is too good, but I don't want to take it away from you.  I think it should have a prerequisite, like Skill Focus (Knowledge - nature) instead of being straight-up available.  I'd like to leave you with it but say that your next feat needs to be that knowledge thing, rather than take it away now.  We could do that, or if you want you could swap it out for something else.  What do you think?"

It's important to me to keep the rule changes minimal, because players really don't want to read a lot outside of the game and they get frustrated if there's too many house rules.

2 years ago (before E6 was called E6) I worked up these complex gestalt XP-buy rules, but eventually my players and I realized that with all the options available all that was really getting used were feat purchasing, because they were so easy to approach.

_Q: Why not just stop advancement at 6th, and have characters just not advance after that, or slow experience down so much that you can game for years and never get higher than 6th level?_
A: In my experience, players prefer to have characters that can grow – and have that growth reflected in the mechanics of the game.

_Q: I like high-magic, high-powered campaigns.  Is E6 for me?_
A: Probably not.  Just as D&D can’t be all things to all groups, E6 caters to a specific set of tastes.[/sblock][sblock=E6-related links]*The OGC E6 Wiki*
http://esix.pbwiki.com/

*D&D Calibrating Your Expectations*
http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html

*mfrench's (mostly) free stuff E6 campaign*
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=201425

*Netbook of Feats*
http://datadeco.com/nbofeats/ [/sblock][sblock=Quick Templates for E6]These templates up the CR of existing creatures quickly and easily by adding blocks of 5 feats.  These essentially add +1 CR to the monsters.

*Biter*
Ability Training (Strength), Ability Advancement (Strength), Weapon Focus (Bite), Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack (bite)

*Brute*
Ability Training (strength), Ability Advancement (strength), Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, Improved Sunder

*Thick-skinned*
Improved Natural Armor x3, Toughness x2

*Quick*
Abiltity Training (dexterity), Ability Advancement (dexterity), Combat Reflexes, Dash, Improved Initiative

*Tough*
Ability Training (constitution), Ability Advancement (constitution), Improved Toughness, Endurance, Diehard[/sblock][sblock=Khuxan’s discovery]Khuxan discovered that D&D Miniatures are well suited to E6. The vast majority are CR <10.  In fact, it's quite fun to look through the above-sixes and work out where each one belongs in a E6 campaign: 
the CR 11 Stone Golem that guards the entrance to an ancient kingdom... 
the CR 8 Warforged Titan whose creation ended a border dispute between two nations... 
the CR 9 Aspect of Orcus isn't an Aspect, it's the Orcus... 
the CR 8 Efreeti you hope stays in its lamp - because if it broke free, it could raze cities... 
the CR 7 Yuan-ti Abomination which heads the empire-spanning Slithering Cult... 
the CR 7 Bulette that destroys every caravan to venture through the Wastes... 
the CR 13 Huge Red Dragon that is the first dragon, the dragon from which all others sprung...
the CR 8 Treant which is the heart of the deepest forest in the land...[/sblock][Sblock=Evilhalfling’s list of Wondrous Items]Here is a list of all minor wondrous items that require only spells 3rd lvl or lower to create, 

 Elixir of love 150 gp
 Unguent of timelessness 150 gp
 Dust of tracelessness 250 gp 
 Elixir of hiding 250 gp 
 Elixir of sneaking 250 gp 
 Elixir of swimming 250 gp 
 Silversheen 250 gp 
 Elixir of truth 500 gp  
 Bag of tricks, gray 900 gp 
 Hand of the mage 900 gp 
 Bracers of armor +1 1,000 gp 
 Cloak of resistance +1 1,000 gp 
 Pearl of power, 1st-level spell 1,000 gp 
 Phylactery of faithfulness 1,000 gp 
 Salve of slipperiness 1,000 gp 
 Elixir of fire breath 1,100 gp 
 Pipes of the sewers 1,150 gp 
 Dust of illusion 1,200 gp 
 Brooch of shielding 1,500 gp 
 Necklace of fireballs type I 1,650 gp 
 Dust of appearance 1,800 gp 
 Hat of disguise 1,800 gp 
 Pipes of sounding 1,800 gp
 Amulet of natural armor +1 2,000 gp 
 Horn of fog 2,000 gp 
 Robe of bones 2,400 gp 
 Sovereign glue 2,400 gp 
 Boots of elvenkind 2,500 gp 
 Boots of the winterlands 2,500 gp 
Candle of truth 2,500 gp 
Cloak of elvenkind 2,500 gp 
Scarab, golembane 2,500 gp 
Necklace of fireballs type II 2,700 gp 
Stone of alarm 2,700 gp 
Bag of tricks, rust 3,000 gp 
Chime of opening 3,000 gp 
Horseshoes of speed 3,000 gp 
 Rope of climbing 3,000 gp
Dust of disappearance 3,500 gp 
Lens of detection 3,500 gp 57 
Bracers of armor +2 4,000 gp 
Cloak of resistance +2 4,000 gp 
Gloves of arrow snaring 4,000 gp \
Restorative ointment 4,000 gp 68 
Pearl of power, 2nd-level spell 4,000 gp 
 Circlet of persuasion 4,500 gp 7
 Slippers of spider climbing 4,800 gp 
Bracers of archery, lesser 5,000 gp 
Helm of comprehend languages and read magic 5,200 gp 
Vest of escape 5,200 gp 
Eversmoking bottle 5,400 gp 
Sustaining spoon 5,400 gp 
Boots of striding and springing 5,500 gp 
Wind fan 5,500 gp 
 Amulet of mighty fists +1 6,000 gp 
 Horseshoes of a zephyr 6,000 gp 
 Pipes of haunting 6,000 gp 
 Gloves of swimming and climbing 6,250 gp 
 Circlet of blasting, minor 6,480 gp 
 Horn of goodness/evil 6,500 gp 
 Bottle of air 7,250 gp 
 Periapt of health

Medium Items 
Bracers or armor +3 
Amulet of NAC +2 
Boots of haste 
Cloak of Arcadia
Minor cloak of displacement[/sblock]


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## Will

Contemplating world-building in an E6 game... how would folks suggest structuring 'what levels exist in the population'?

I realize the answer is 'however you want for your campaign,' but it might be worth poking at various designs and the effects that would have on the game.


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## Kunimatyu

I'll be starting my E6 game in the next few weeks. It's something of a "science fantasy" game using the Sorcerer supplement "EncyclopediaDictionary of Mu" (that was up for a few Ennies this year, I heard). I think E6 will work especially well for a lower-fantasy dying-world pulp setting like Mu, and I'm eager to get started.

While the setting has humanoids, I'm pushing for an all-human party, using the Background rules from Iron Heroes, with a few custom backgrounds appropriate to the setting.


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## brehobit

Nice.  This will be in the running for the next time I run my "standard campaign", which is a fairly low-powered game.

Thanks!

Mark


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## Ry

Will said:
			
		

> Contemplating world-building in an E6 game... how would folks suggest structuring 'what levels exist in the population'?
> 
> I realize the answer is 'however you want for your campaign,' but it might be worth poking at various designs and the effects that would have on the game.




When I dreamed up E6, the idea was that 6th level characters were the major named characters of the setting: the Elronds, Gandalfs, Aragorns, Theodens, Eomers, and Faramirs.  There's another viable approach, which makes the playing field much more even: that's Evilhalfling's approach in this thread.

One thing to keep in mind here is the difference between level demographics in the background and level demographics in the foreground.

You could structure two campaigns the same way in terms of encounters: The players speak with a 6th-level cleric, who implores them to do battle with a wyvern living in the nearby hills while he takes the pass beneath the wyvern's lair to a town in need of his healing magic.  

Under my approach, the cleric is described as a Very Important NPC.  He might be Raulim, wandering mystic, servant of Fiutiel, the Angel of Virtue.  The towns the players are helping are made up of 1st-level commoners and a few 1st-level experts and warriors.  The head of the local militia is a 3rd-level warrior (he's been around a bit).

Under the other approach, the cleric is Raulim, the town cleric.  He hasn't travelled much and although he's quite skilled as a cleric, his life is just as local as the peasants in his flock.  If he's important to the story, it's because the PCs are familiar with him and have seen him before.  In this case, the town probably has quite a few levelled characters; maybe the head of the town guard is a 6th level fighter, and many of the townsfolk are 3rd level commoners.

Here's the point about background and foreground:  In terms of playability, since only Raulim, 6th level cleric, is getting involved in combats near the PCs (foreground), there's very little difference between the two approaches (background).


----------



## Ry

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> I'll be starting my E6 game in the next few weeks. It's something of a "science fantasy" game using the Sorcerer supplement "Encyclopedia of Mu" (that was up for a few Ennies this year, I heard). I think E6 will work especially well for a lower-fantasy dying-world pulp setting like Mu, and I'm eager to get started.
> 
> While the setting has humanoids, I'm pushing for an all-human party, using the Background rules from Iron Heroes, with a few custom backgrounds appropriate to the setting.




Kuni, could you give me the coles notes version of Encyclopedia of Mu?  I'm not familiar with it at all.


----------



## Ry

brehobit said:
			
		

> Nice.  This will be in the running for the next time I run my "standard campaign", which is a fairly low-powered game.




Thanks Mark!  One thing E6 has going for it is that players don't have to learn a thing, and you can tempt them with feats.  Another thing E6 has going for it is that I've playtested it and there's now several games of it running.


----------



## Turanil

Great ideas. Actually, with E6 I could be tempted to once again run a 3.5 campaign (provided I had the time and opportunity)...

I would probably use some of the rules found in Unearthed Arcana as well, expanding on "ritual magic", using variant rules for acquisition of prestige classes so they could be gained at 2nd or 3rd level, etc.


----------



## Kunimatyu

rycanada said:
			
		

> Kuni, could you give me the coles notes version of Encyclopedia of Mu?  I'm not familiar with it at all.




Sure - the setting is a dying desert planet, full of the ruins of failed civilizations, while the remnants of humanity dwell in the remaining cities or ride the Red Wastes. You've got decadent but technologically powerful Atlanteans living in crystal spheres, warlocks and sorcerers rallying behind the banners of the Witch-King of Lemuria, nomads riding the wastes until the Khan of Khans comes to lead them, and the righteous hordes of Hy-Brasil uniting behind their Damsel Messiah. Pyramids dot the landscape, filled with the lost technologies of the past - some pyramids even contain the means of transit off the dying world of Marr'd and into the welcoming arms of Urt...provided you have enough blood for their engines...

The setting has bits of Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom, D&D 2e's Dark Sun, and Jack Vance's Dying Earth books scattered throughout, and for newer gamers, there's a something of a Secret of Mana/Crystalis/Chrono Trigger/Illusion of Gaia influence(though I suspect it's merely due to parallel inspiration from the above works). It sounds like a fun, if bleak, setting that I'm going to enjoy playing around with.


----------



## Ry

Sounds very pulp 

What is the "Encyclopedia of Mu" in that setting?  What's Mu?


----------



## Jeff Wilder

This is really cool, and I'm going to give it very serious consideration for my next campaign.

One thing:

Shouldn't the feats for ganing additional spells known and additional spell slots be adjusted for spontaneous and non-spontaneous casters?  For a sorcerer, additional spells known are _much_ more valuable than for a wizard.  On the other hand, for a wizard, additional spell _slots_ are significantly more valuable.

Any thoughts?


----------



## Kunimatyu

Jeff Wilder said:
			
		

> This is really cool, and I'm going to give it very serious consideration for my next campaign.
> 
> One thing:
> 
> Shouldn't the feats for ganing additional spells known and additional spell slots be adjusted for spontaneous and non-spontaneous casters?  For a sorcerer, additional spells known are _much_ more valuable than for a wizard.  On the other hand, for a wizard, additional spell _slots_ are significantly more valuable.
> 
> Any thoughts?




There were some other feats tossed around, but it's both a simplicity issue and the fact that with a feat that grants both a slot and spell known, both the wizard and sorc get something they really want and something they only somewhat want -- it just happens to be different for each. If you want to, of course, it's very easy to design feats that split the benefits, but that's more a matter of personal preference and house-ruling, not anything that's required for E6 to work.


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## Kunimatyu

rycanada said:
			
		

> Sounds very pulp
> 
> What is the "Encyclopedia of Mu" in that setting?  What's Mu?




Doh -- it's "Dictionary of Mu", no encyclopedias here; the sourcebook is supposed to be the writings of a scribe who fled the Witch-King. It has brief entries in alphabetical order that give a rough picture of the setting, with lots of room to fill in the blanks.

"Mu" is a legendary giant who fought Lemur, another legendary giant. Since the capital city of Lemuria is called "Mu's Bed", and the scribe was from Lemuria, I'd suspect that's why it's called the Encyclopedia of Mu, but I'm not entirely certain.

It's quite the evocative read.


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## Ry

At one point I floated the idea of a feat that gave you a spell slot of one level, and a spell known of a different level, but people compared it to WotC equivalents and thought it was too powerful.  I still think I'd allow such a feat though.


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## Jeph

The name's actually Dictionary of Mu. It's set on Mars.

EDIT: Do'h! Vastly too slow!


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## Nytmare

I threw the idea of E6 at my players about a month ago.  I was excited about it, but figured that the campaign we were currenty playing in (3rd-4th level Scarred Lands) was better left alone, and that we'd try it out on the next one.  There were, however, a bunch of rules that I did want to take a swing at (conviction, the death flag, raising the stakes) so we started talking.

Conviction I changed around a bit, making a sort of hybrid to the existing Scarred Lands "Invocation Benefits".  The original system basically gave players a +1 to +3 on various d20 rolls when they'd pray to different gods.  We trimmed the number of APs down to four, and made the bonus die range between a d4 and a d8.

[sblock=INVOCATION BENEFITS]
INVOCATION BENEFITS
===================

The gods' worshippers can call upon the power of their deities when in need by expending action points over one or more rounds to chant, meditate, pray, or otherwise contact the god's spiritual essence.  

How long the invocation bonus lasts before it is lost entirely is dependant upon the situation and is left to the GM's discretion.  In almost all cases, the task, feat, or endeavor for which the worshipper desires the god's boon must be specified and be undertaken immediately.  A ranger facing a charging band of trolls might invoke Tanil to guide his arrow and find that his first shot has divine accuracy. But if that same ranger prays every morning just in case he should happen to go into battle, he may discover that Tanil will find his prayers unanswered.  

Worshippers who invoke their god too often may find that their god has developed a deaf ear to their nagging pleas.  Furthermore, worshippers who frequently invoke gods other than their patron deity, or (worse still) one of opposing beliefs, may find themselves abandoned and suffering the wrath of a vengeful god.

The following write up assumes 4 APs, regenerated each time a player rests, which can only be spent once per round.

AP	EFFECT
1	Pray - Roll an additional d4, adding it to a d20 roll.  This must be declared before you roll.
1	Invoke - Roll an additional d4, adding it to the appropriate roll (see below).  This must be declared before you roll.  If you pray for a full round, the die is increased to a d6.  If you are praying to your patron deity you may pray for a third full round and increase the die to a d8.
2	Take an extra move-equivalent action, on your turn only
3	Take an extra standard action, on your turn only
-4	Raise your "Death Flag"
4	Lower your "Death Flag", on your turn only


INVOCAIONS
===========

COREAN
+dx to attack
+dx to damage against titanspawn
+dx to skills involving fire or blacksmithing 

MADRIEL
+dx to healing spells
+dx to save vs negative energy
+dx to turning checks against undead
+dx to Heal checks.

TANIL
+dx to attack with bows
+dx to Wild Empathy checks
+dx to skills involving music, the wilderness, or animals

HEDRADA
+dx to Will saves
+dx to saves against spells with the "chaotic" designator
+dx to the spell strength of spells with the "law" designator
+dx to skills determining truth, like Sense Motive

ENKILI
+dx to Reflex saves
+dx to any skill checks involving or penalized by storms or the sea
+dx to Balance, Bluff, Disguise, Jump, or Tumble checks

CHARDUN
+dx to an attack
+dx to the spell strength of any mind affecting or damaging spell
+dx to Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive, or any skill that involves strategy or military tactics

BELSAMETH
+dx to an attack made on a good aligned creature
+dx to your AC against an attack made by a good aligned creature
+dx to a Control Shape check

VANGAL
+dx to an attack against an otherwise invulnerable target, such as those with DR, incorporeal foes, and the like.  If weilding two axes, both weapons become enchanted
+dx to the spell strength of a spell with the "necromancy" designator
[/sblock]

We've only had two sessions so far, but the APs have really given the mechanic the boost that it needed.  We trimmed it down to four action points instead of six because one of the players runs an Ebberon campaign, and he found the 5 or so points you get _per level_ to almost be too much.  Either way, I think that I'm satisfied with where we have it.

The Death Flag was put in almost exactly as written (aside from the slide to 4 points) and I felt the benefits almost immediately.  I am normally a "try to keep em alive" DM, which heaps a lot of unecessary stress on you when trying to find those dangerous/deadly and believable/silly balance points during encounters.  But with this, I quickly fell into a comfortable position where I didn't have to worry about fudging dice rolls and throwing away tactical advantages.

As for Raising the Stakes, it's the one mechanic I really wish I had been able to fit into things.  The problem is that we use a critical hit and fumble table that has it's fingers spread through the ranged combat and magic systems, and I can't really see using both of them together.  When it comes down to it, I think that Raising the Stakes is a much better mechanic, but I think we're too hung up on the charts we're using.

What I wasn't expecting, was that my players had decided that they wanted to change over to E6 with or without me.  People are still a level or two away from the level six break point, but everyone seems to be excited.  For the most part, my group already preferred the E6 "sweet spot", and their primary complaints with other campaigns were when things powered up to the realm of level five spells.

Surprise number two was for one of the players to suggest using the "players roll all the dice" rule.  When I looked over it at first, I liked it, but the loss of control for a DM who often fudged rolls to keep players from dying scared me.  But, after having witnessed the genius of the Death Flag in action, I knew that I had nothing to worry about.

But yeah, so far everything's turning up roses.  There have been fewer arguments about this round of houserules than anything else we've tried, and everyone seems to be excited.  The only hitch we've run into is wrapping our heads around the "players roll" rules, but we've only had one real swing at them so far.


----------



## Ry

Nytmare, on a day that the office is crumbling into a digital black hole and there is much yelling about various things going wrong, that's really great to hear!

Glad to hear your players are so into it!


----------



## joela

*one-shot*

Will be running a DnD one-shot this weekend. PC will start at 6th level; if it goes well and turns into a campaign, I hope to convince folks to give E6 (actually, my variant) a shot.


----------



## shdwrnr

*For your consideration*

Stumbled upon this yesterday and I'm really impressed. This is exactly the kind of game I like to play and run. I don't know if anyone has done this already, but for your consideration I have a few feats you might enjoy for your "villian" section.

[sblock=Assassin Prestige Feats]
*Assassin Training [Prestige]*
You have begun training as an assassin.
Prerequisite: No other prestige feats, evil alignment, must kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassins, character level 6th.
Benefit: The following skills become class skills for you: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device, and Use Rope.
In addition, you gain the sneak attack ability which deals an additional +1d6 points of damage against an opponent that is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC. This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. This bonus on damage stacks with sneak attacks from another source.
Special: You may not gain this feat if you already possess any other prestige feats.

*Poison Use [Prestige]*
You have learned how to safely apply poisons to your trade.
Prerequisite: Assassin Training, Craft (Alchemy) 4 ranks, character level 6th.
Benefit: When applying poison to a weapon, you no longer risk accidentally poisoning yourself.

*Assassin’s Guile [Prestige]*
Your training as an assassin has been augmented by arcane study.
Prerequisite: Intelligence 12+, Assassin Training, Spellcraft 4 ranks, character level 6th.
Benefit: Choose two spells from the following list: _Disguise Self, Detect Poison, Feather Fall, Ghost Sound, Jump, Obscuring Mist, Sleep,_ and _True Strike_. You may cast one of these spells per day with a caster level equal to the number of prestige feats you possess.

*Assassin’s Trade [Prestige]*
You have learned how to quickly bring death to the unaware.
Prerequisite: Assassin Training, two or more prestige feats, Disguise 4 ranks, Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks character level 6th.
Benefit: You gain the Death Attack special ability.
[/sblock]
[sblock=Blackguard Prestige Feats]
*Blackguard Training [Prestige]*
You have begun training as a blackguard.
Prerequisite: No other prestige feats, evil alignment, must have made peaceful contact with an evil outsider, character level 6th.
Benefit: The following skills become class skills for you: Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (religion), Profession, and Ride.
In addition, you gain an Aura of Evil. The power of the aura (see the _detect evil_ spell) is equal to the number of prestige feats you posses.
Special: You may not gain this feat if you already possess any other prestige feats.

*Sunder the Righteous [Prestige]*
Your devotion to darkness has granted you power to harm the followers of the light.
Prerequisite: Blackguard Training, Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Sunder, character level 6th.
Benefit: Once per day, you may make a single melee attack against a good aligned target. You add your Charisma modifier (if positive) to the attack roll and deal 1 extra point of damage per prestige feat you posses, plus any bonuses from high Strength or magical effects that normally apply. If you accidentally use this ability feat against a target that is not good, the feat has no effect but is still used up for that day.

*Inquisition [Prestige]*
You have gained the ability to sense the righteous wherever they may lurk.
Prerequisite: Blackguard Training, Hide 4 ranks, character level 6th.
Benefit: You may use detect good as a spell like ability at will. In addition, any melee weapon you wield is considered evil aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction

*Fallen From Grace [Prestige]*
The lords of corruption favor those who were once pure.
Prerequisite: Blackguard Training, one or more paladin levels, character level 6th.
Benefit: You immediately gain a number of prestige feats equal to your paladin level/2. For example, a 3rd-level paladin/3rd-level cleric would gain 1 extra prestige feat upon gaining this feat while a 5th-level paladin/1st-level rogue would gain 2.
Special: This feat adds to the number of prestige feats you posses as normal in addition to any added by virtue of this feat. Feats gained by this feat do not count towards the limit of prestige feats you may learn.

*Lord of Despair [Prestige]*
Your body has become a conduit for negative energy.
Prerequisite: Blackguard Training, two or more prestige feats, Knowledge (religion) 2 ranks, character level 6th.
Benefit: You may command or rebuke undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. You command undead as would a cleric who’s level equals the number of prestige feats you posses -2.
In addition, the dark energy you wield envelopes you in a malign aura that causes enemies within 10 feet to take a -2 penalty on all saving throws.

*Fiendish Servant [Prestige]*
Your dark masters have granted you an ally from the lower planes.
Prerequisite: Blackguard Training, three or more prestige feats, Knowledge (religion) 2 ranks, character level 6th.
Benefit: You acquire a fiendish servant that serves you as a guardian, helper, or mount. You may choose from the following: fiendish bat, cat, dire rat, horse, pony, raven, or toad. The servant further gains HD and special abilities based on the number of prestige feats you posses. 
Five or less prestige feats grant your fiendish servant +2 HD, +1 Natural Armor, +1 Strength, an Intelligence score of 6, and the following special abilities: empathic link, improved evasion, share saving throws, and share spells. Six or more prestige feats grant your fiendish servant +4 HD, +3 Natural Armor, +2 Strength, an Intelligence score of 7, and the ability to speak with you.
Special: You may only have one fiendish servant at a time. Should your fiendish servant die, you may call for another one after a year and a day.

*Blessing of Darkness [Prestige]*
The dark masters you serve have invested a spark of the divine in you.
Prerequisite: Wisdom 12+, Blackguard Training, three or more prestige feats, Knowledge (religion) 2 ranks, character level 6th.
Benefit: You may cast one spell per day from the following list: _cause fear, corrupt weapon, cure light wounds, doom, inflict light wounds, magic weapon,_ and _summon monster I _ (evil creatures only).
In addition, you gain a bonus to your saving throws equal to your Charisma modifier (if positive).

*Edit:* Underlined text was added later. Yeah, I'm anal about formatting, sue me.
[/sblock]


----------



## Hrothgar Rannúlfr

*Re: Villain Feats*



			
				shdwrnr said:
			
		

> Stumbled upon this yesterday and I'm really impressed. This is exactly the kind of game I like to play and run. I don't know if anyone has done this already, but for your consideration I have a few feats you might enjoy for your "villian" section.
> 
> ...



I like these a lot.  I haven't viewed them in detail, yet (for balance issues, etc...), but it's similar to an idea that I was working on to convert many of the Prestige Class abilities into feats.

Good idea!


----------



## Kunimatyu

As a general rule, Prestige Class abilities from 6-9 (and *sometimes* farther, on a case-by-case basis) can be converted into "prestige" feat chains without significantly impacting balance.


----------



## Ry

Wow shdwrnr... those feats are great.  I haven't been able to check them all out yet but the basic idea is solid.


----------



## shdwrnr

I thought to myself, a villian needs to be iconic and memorable and different from all the minions in some way. I always liked PRC's because they let you do that. With only 6 levels, that's not enough to really get a lot out of them and I loathe class feature feats. I basically took the abilities that I felt defined the PRC, gave them prereqs coherent with their power level and use (and trying to maintain the original prereqs of the class itself). I tried my best to not just create a "Level 7" feat since that really defeats the whole dang purpose.
I drew inspiration from Eberon's shifter feats in that some feats get more powerful as you aquire more of that kind of feat and in that some feats are balanced by requiring additional feats of the same type.

These only took a few minutes. I could probably translate the remaning DMG PRC's in an hour or two if anyone wants ;-p


----------



## shdwrnr

*A bug in the system*

So I did the Archmage since that makes a pretty iconic antagonist. Unfortunately, I ran into a stumper that I think I've been able to fix.

[sblock=Archmage Prestige Feats]
*Archmage Training [Prestige]*
You have begun training as an archmage.
Prerequisite: No other prestige feats, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Skill Focus (Knowledge (arcana), Spell Focus in at least two schools of magic, any two metamagic or item creation feats, Spellcraft 11 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 11 ranks, ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells, character level 6th.
Benefit: The following skills become class skills for you: Concentration, Craft (alchemy), Knowledge (all skills taken individually), Profession, Search, and Spellcraft.
In addition, you gain a +1 to your caster level for every 2 prestige feats you posses.
Special: You may not gain this feat if you already possess any other prestige feats.

*Arcane Fire [Prestige]*
You can channel arcane spell energy into bolts of raw magical power.
Prerequisite: Archmage Training, Spell Focus (evocation), character level 6th.
Benefit: By expending a spell slot of any level you may channel a bolt of pure destructive energy. This bolt is a ranged touch attack with long range (400 feet + 40 feet/caster level) that deals 1d6 points of damage per caster level plus 1d6 points of damage per level of the spell used to create the effect. For instance, a wizard with a caster level of 6 who channels a 3rd-level spell into arcane fire deals 9d6 points of damage to the target if it hits.
Special: Learning this feat reduces your caster level by 2.

*Arcane Reach [Prestige]*
You can cast touch spells at range.
Prerequisite: Archmage Training, character level 6th.
Benefit: You may use spells with a range of touch on targets up to 30 feet away. You must make a ranged touch attack. 
Special: Learning this feat reduces your caster level by 1.

*Improved Arcane Reach [Prestige]*
You can cast touch spells at greater range.
Prerequisite: Archmage Training, Arcane Reach, character level 6th.
Benefit: You may use spells with a range of touch on targets up to 60 feet away. You must make a ranged touch attack. 
Special: Learning this feat reduces your caster level by 1.

*Mastery of Counterspelling [Prestige]*
Spells you counter are reflected upon their caster.
Prerequisite: Archmage Training, Spell Focus (abjuration), character level 6th.
Benefit: When you counterspell a spell, it is turned back upon the caster as if it were fully affected by a spell turning spell. If the spell cannot be affected by spell turning, then it is merely counterspelled.
Special: Learning this feat reduces your caster level by 1.

*Mastery of Elements [Prestige]*
You may alter the elemental components of spells you cast.
Prerequisite: Archmage Training, Spell Focus (transmutation), character level 6th.
Benefit: You may alter an arcane spell when cast so that it utilizes a different element from the one it normally uses.
This feat can only alter a spell with the acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic descriptor. The spell’s casting time is unaffected. The caster decides whether to alter the spell’s energy type and chooses the new energy type when he begins casting.
Special: Learning this feat reduces your caster level by 2.

*Mastery of Shaping [Prestige]*
You may alter the dimensions of spells you cast.
Prerequisite: Archmage Training, Spell Focus (transmutation), character level 6th.
Benefit: With this feat you can alter area and effect spells that use one of the following shapes: burst, cone, cylinder, emanation, or spread. The alteration consists of creating spaces within the spell’s area of effect that are not subject to the spell. The minimum dimension for these spaces is a 5-foot cube. Furthermore, any shapeable spells have a minimum dimension of 5 feet instead of 10 feet.
Special: Learning this feat reduces your caster level by 1.

*Spell-Like Ability [Prestige]*
Choose a spell you can cast. You gain that spell as a spell-like ability.
Prerequisite: Archmage Training, character level 6th.
Benefit: When gaining this feat, pick any spell you know. You permanently lose one spell slot of that spell’s level but can cast it as a spell like ability twice per day. You do not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs you 10 times that amount in XP.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. Its effects do not stack, each time it applies to a different spell. Learning this feat does not reduce your caster level.

*Improved Spell-Like Ability [Prestige]*
Choose a spell-like ability you posses. You gain additional uses of that ability.
Prerequisite: Archmage Training, Spell-Like Ability, character level 6th.
Benefit: You can use your chose spell-like ability two additional times per day.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. Its effects stack. Learning this feat reduces your caster level by 1.
[/sblock]

The Archmage's standard rules for checks and balances (losing spell slots) doesn't hold up well in E6 because of how finite spell slots are. I used caster levels as the balancing factor here instead since it's easily tracked and manipulated. The problem that I ran into was this: you could theoretically take archmage prestige feats forever since there's not a limit like class progression. One could just just put in a tag under each feat chain on the maximum number you can gain, but I decided to ere on the side of overall consistancy: limit prestige feats to one prestige feat per HD. So now we have a max 6 archmage prestige feats. That grants a +3 to caster level. The character is probably going to have a 4-6 caster level penalty in his feat selection which can then be offset by the Practiced Spellcaster feat (or as you guys call it "Caster Training"). You'll still wind up with a character with significant power, though the initial feat would require a character of at least level 6+4 (so we're talking 6+6 at least before you're seeing this power). Considering the lofty prereqs for the class to begin with, this feels acceptable to me.
Considering adding a few of the Red Wizard of Thay's abilities to the archmage list, though that would be for my own use since it's non-cannon.

Other classes are comming along slower than anticipated due to my unwillingness to just turn class features into feats.


----------



## Evilhalfling

the blackguard and assasin chains look good. 

How do you get the req 11 ranks in spellcraft & kn:arcane with only six levels? 
the archmage also looks overly complicated - I would be more likely to handwave villians with greater magical power.  I don't think e6 works well for archmage abilities.  

Shadowdancer: HiPs has way to many problems to add to the game. 
Loremaster: the only good ability is bardic lore with out having to sing. The rest is just minor benifts and the prestige of the title.
Thaumaturge: Celestial compaion as a feat? already exists.  
Others:
Horizenwalkers: might be a better feat chain then a class. a feat with prequs for each earthly terrain.
Red wizards- I cant remeber, I dont have a similar organization in my world, so they don't come up.


----------



## Ry

Evilhalfling, you're running an E6 game, right?  Care to share your thoughts on how the level breakdown in the population works?


----------



## Evilhalfling

nope its just a thought experiment for me (sigh)  I got little buy-in from my players yet, and Im rotating of of the DM chair when the current game ends.  
When I come back we may be discussing a possible 4e switch. _perhaps there would be time for a E6 minigame in between? _ 

The demographics of my current game is more or less capped at the DMG's Large city, even if the population is higher.  People like rulers, univeristy/guild heads and high priests can reach 9th level with out being active adventurers, after that they get histories and fame for past adventures.  Cities also have higher level characters based on reputation. With martial, academic and corrupt being the reputations three primary cities in the area. 

PCs are 8th and are starting to become well known, although in the shadow of a teleporting, army stopping, Lich slaying party of NPCs - although the PCs are convinced that they are actually evil and trying to end the world. 

They also have heard of 2 other groups that they accurately consider lightweights.


----------



## pallen

Re: Capstone feats

It seems odd to me that the cleric capstone feats have requirements in addition to just "Cleric 6" when no other class-specific capstone feat does.


----------



## PoeticJustice

I'm currently running an E6 game.
My players said it sounded like a fun variant, and I was intrigued with the idea.

Despite that, there have been a few snags. Spells of level 4 or higher are sorely missed, and I do pine to make use of the hundreds of prestige classes I've accumulated.

Also, the DM first needs to decide exactly how hard it is for an NPC to get to level 6. In my campaign, it's a little like WoW: getting there is hard, but enough make it, and once you do there's a lot of stuff that needs to be done.

We're currently at level 3. The campaign is going well, and I'm compiling a document with most of the good feats I want accessible to my players.


----------



## alan

Looking over the E6 rules and checking out some of the prestige class conversion above, I have a quick question / note. As it currently stands, the only way to increase a skill after reaching level 6 is to take the "Skill Focus" feat, as well as the various "+2 to two skills" feats - correct?

 Would it be too much to give out one skill point and one feat every 5,000 XP once above 6th level?


----------



## Imp

Complete Adventurer, Open Minded, adds 5 skill points.  Suddenly very very useful!

If you want to get past the skill point cap, yeah, you're looking at Skill Focus, etc.


----------



## Hrothgar Rannúlfr

alan said:
			
		

> Would it be too much to give out one skill point and one feat every 5,000 XP once above 6th level?



That's an interesting idea.

Makes me think of giving out a skill point every 1,000 XP and then letting characters buy feats for 5 skill points.


----------



## shdwrnr

Evilhalfling said:
			
		

> How do you get the req 11 ranks in spellcraft & kn:arcane with only six levels?
> the archmage also looks overly complicated - I would be more likely to handwave villians with greater magical power.  I don't think e6 works well for archmage abilities.
> come up.




One of the capstone feats posted by Ry (and bastardized my me for clarification and format consitancy):
*Skill Beyond Your Years [General]*
Prerequisite: Character level 6th.
Benefit: Pick a class skill. Your max ranks in that skill becomes character level +5. 
Normal: Your max ranks in a class skill are character level +3
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack, each time you apply this feat to a different class skill.

The way I made the feats was just so the archmage didn't have to lose their precious spell slots. Those abilities as writen would burn a 6th level wizard dry before you could gain any real power, and without spell slots, what's the point anymore?



			
				pallen said:
			
		

> It seems odd to me that the cleric capstone feats have requirements in addition to just "Cleric 6" when no other class-specific capstone feat does.




Most of the other capstone feats are class abilities already possessed by those classes at later levle or, like the paladin capstone, from a variant rule. The cleric capstone was probably added simply so the cleric isn't left out and is not an ability a cleric would normally be able to acquire.
I felt that they were backwards myself so I flipped them for my own use. IMO most clerics would get the domain power and forget the spell list, so my players would have to get the spell list first. (That and I think the domain power is much more powerful than 3 new spells).


----------



## PoeticJustice

shdwrnr said:
			
		

> One of the capstone feats posted by Ry (and bastardized my me for clarification and format consitancy):
> *Skill Beyond Your Years [General]*
> Prerequisite: Character level 6th.
> Benefit: Pick a class skill. Your max ranks in that skill becomes character level +5.
> Normal: Your max ranks in a class skill are character level +3
> Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack, each time you apply this feat to a different class skill.




BTW, A player in my campaign has brought it to my attention that a lot of feats have prerequisite: X skill 12 ranks. If Skill Beyond Your Years could be bumped up to character level +6, then a lot of new options could be explored.


----------



## shdwrnr

PoeticJustice said:
			
		

> BTW, A player in my campaign has brought it to my attention that a lot of feats have prerequisite: X skill 12 ranks. If Skill Beyond Your Years could be bumped up to character level +6, then a lot of new options could be explored.




Skill Beyond Your Years is Ry's brainchild. Not mine. What feats are you describing btw?


----------



## Grimstaff

Still toying around with the idea of running E6 for my upcoming campaign. I'm happy with my fix for spell levels, but having a little trouble with the exp progression. With 6th lvl representing the pinnacle of success, it seems to arrive a bit too soon for my tastes, in as little as 12-15 sessions. Simply increasing the xp required to gain a level seems like it may lead to some annoyingly long stretches for goal-oriented players.

One thought I had was to increase xp requirements, but give out a bonus feat "in between" levels, as it were, and they should take 6 months or so of sessions to reach "epic" levels. As such, my progression chart would look something like this:
0xp        1st lvl
1000xp    bonus feat
2000xp    2nd lvl
4000xp    bonus feat
6000xp    3rd lvl
9000xp    bonus feat
12000xp   4th lvl
16000xp   bonus feat
20000xp   5th lvl
25000xp   bonus feat
30000xp   6th lvl
+bonus feat each additional 5k xp

My hope is that this justifies the 6th lvl npcs in a my campaign being older than 18 or so ;-) and that it stretches out these fun low levels without too big of a gap between rewards.

My big concern is: would, say, the 3rd lvl PC with 3 bonus feats be too unbalancing? It seems less powerful than gestalt at first glance, but then I have yet to playtest this.

Any thoughts?


----------



## PoeticJustice

shdwrnr said:
			
		

> Skill Beyond Your Years is Ry's brainchild. Not mine. What feats are you describing btw?




In reference to skill beyond your years, it would allow greater dragonmarks as well as a lot of skill based feats.


----------



## Turanil

PoeticJustice said:
			
		

> I'm currently running an E6 game.
> My players said it sounded like a fun variant, and I was intrigued with the idea.
> 
> Despite that, there have been a few snags. Spells of level 4 or higher are sorely missed, and I do pine to make use of the hundreds of prestige classes I've accumulated.



I thought the same. Personally, I would do E7. Just one level more won't really disrupt the concept, and allows wizards to get 4th level spells (1 to 3 at best) while sorcerers remain at 3rd level spells. Also, with E7, still only warrior classes eventually get an additional attack (at level 6 and 7).

For prestige classes, I am for doing this: allow a prestige class to be taken upon reaching the 3rd level. Use the alternate roleplaying method outlined in Unearthed Arcana, where character must succeed a peculiar mission/adventure to be inducted into the special training of the class. With this method and E7, you can gain 5 levels of prestige classes, and often the interesting features of prestige classes are found within the first 5, the subsequent levels being only improvements on those...


----------



## Ry

shdwrnr said:
			
		

> Skill Beyond Your Years is Ry's brainchild. Not mine. What feats are you describing btw?




I think there's a bunch of ones in Eberron (dragomarks).  SKill beyond your years is actually Phil Reed (from 101 Feats).


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

I just wanted to chime in and say that I am pretty intrigued by this concept. I have no idea if I will ever run a E6 game, but it sounds interesting.

Some Notes about skills:
I would recommend against increasing the attainable rank to high - Otherwise, you might up getting the same effect as leveling certain characters. (But I think it should be possible to expand a characters skills further) 
An alternate suggestion would be to just lower the skill requisites, or add some feats that increases your skill ranks for the purposes of qualifying for feats.
Further skill improvement should (in my opinion at least) not increase _what_ the characters can achieve, but how easy it is for them get a possible result.  
Examples might be (stealing from Star Wars Saga Edition):

Improved Skill Focus
Prerequisite: Skill Focus in the skill in question:
Take any one skill you have the skill focus feat in. Your effective rank is considered 2 points higher for determining if you qualify for a feat. In addition, you may decide to reroll any check made with the skill. You must take the reroll result, even if it is worse. 

Greater Skill Focus
Prerequisite: Improved Skill Focus in the skill in question
Take any one skill you have the Improved Skill Focus feat in. Your effective rank is considered 2 points higher for determining if you qualify for a feat (this benefit stacks with Improved Skill Focus). In addition, you may always choose to reroll the skill and take the higher result.

Improved Skill Mastery
Prerequisite: Skill Mastery
Choose a number of skills equal to 3 + your Int Modifier in which you have the Skill Mastery  for.You may now take 15 on the skill, which works identically as taking 10, except that your result is 5 points higher.

Greater Skill Mastery
Prerequisite: Improved Skill Mastery
Choose a number of skills equal to 3 + your Int Modifier in which you have the Skill Mastery feat. When taking 20, you require only half the usual time. 

Or mix and combine the benefits of these feats like you prefer. 

I would also recommend using the PHB II retraining rules a lot more - these make a lot of sense now. Characters now can change their focus, and losing skills, ability points, feats or even class levels for alternate ones basically emulates "skill degredation". If you begin to focus on something else, your other abilities fade...
(I would put some limit on class retraining: I think the first character level should be "set in stone", so that nobody ever forgets how he began...)


----------



## Quasqueton

When I try to open the pdfs, I get:
"The file is damaged and could not be repaired."

Quasqueton


----------



## Ry

What version of Adobe Acrobat do you have?   Can someone else test the files?


----------



## Quasqueton

> What version of Adobe Acrobat do you have?



Was 7. Just downloaded and installed 8. Still, same problem.

Quasqueton


----------



## Desdichado

Ryan Canada, I have to say this E6 concept is really kicking my butt.  That is one of the greatest ideas I've seen on these forums in _years_.

I'm halfway thinking of taking the Modern SRD and applying the E6 concept to it as well as a houserule document for my campaign.  I'd also probably turn the talent trees into post level 6 feat chains or something as well.

But the funny thing is, E6 means I don't most of the problems with D&D per se already.  I can handwave the flavor instead of trying to do things like alternate magic systems, artifical level caps, etc.

This is very sweet.


----------



## Grimstaff

Grimstaff said:
			
		

> 0xp        1st lvl
> 1000xp    bonus feat
> 2000xp    2nd lvl
> 4000xp    bonus feat
> 6000xp    3rd lvl
> 9000xp    bonus feat
> 12000xp   4th lvl
> 16000xp   bonus feat
> 20000xp   5th lvl
> 25000xp   bonus feat
> 30000xp   6th lvl
> +bonus feat each additional 5k xp
> *This replaces bonus feats normally gained at 3rd and 6th level.



I presented this to my thurs night players and they seem interested. We agreed the bonus feats would be instead of, rather than in addition to, the bonus feats normally gained at 3rd and 6th level.

They did seem interested in capping at 10th instead of 6th though...


----------



## Ry

Can someone help me / Quasqueton?  I have no idea what's causing the error, I can open the file from work or home.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

rycanada said:
			
		

> Can someone help me / Quasqueton?  I have no idea what's causing the error, I can open the file from work or home.



Maybe he should retry downloading it? It sometimes (even if very rarely) can happen that the file is damaged during such a process.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Hey, rycanada!

I hope you realize that E6 is looking a lot better than 4E these days!

RC


----------



## Ry

Thanks RC!  I never had a grognardely bone in my body, but 4e has me caught between 

"hmm, I like faster prep and fewer skills" 

and 

"I've pretty much nailed it here.  Why change?"


----------



## Ry

Hobo said:
			
		

> Ryan Canada, I have to say this E6 concept is really kicking my butt.  That is one of the greatest ideas I've seen on these forums in _years_.
> 
> I'm halfway thinking of taking the Modern SRD and applying the E6 concept to it as well as a houserule document for my campaign.  I'd also probably turn the talent trees into post level 6 feat chains or something as well.
> 
> But the funny thing is, E6 means I don't most of the problems with D&D per se already.  I can handwave the flavor instead of trying to do things like alternate magic systems, artifical level caps, etc.
> 
> This is very sweet.




Thanks Hobo!  In the last 3 months I've been massively jazzed by how much positive feedback and even the occasional actual play comment I've received about E6.  Also, it's been really fun for me in actual play.  But the biggest reason for its current, modestly-polished state is that EN World has been so positive on the concept.

:...) _I... I love you guys._


----------



## Evilhalfling

Grimstaff said:
			
		

> I presented this to my thurs night players and they seem interested. We agreed the bonus feats would be instead of, rather than in addition to, the bonus feats normally gained at 3rd and 6th level.




I like your chart grimstaff - I was contemplating one using the with the exact same guidelines.
(x2 xp per level, a bonus feat at the halfway point) 
It solves a lot of my world building issues, making level six far more rare than it would be otherwise. (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3690144&postcount=6) 

I would probably start PCs at 1/2 way to second lvl, to reduce their 1st lvl jitters. Is the halfway feat instead of the 1st level feat or in addition to it?  I was undecided. 


			
				Grimstaff said:
			
		

> They did seem interested in capping at 10th instead of 6th though...



Why 10th? that opens up the raise dead/teleport can o' worms that E6 otherwise prevents.


----------



## joela

*10th from a different POV*



			
				Evilhalfling said:
			
		

> Why 10th? that opens up the raise dead/teleport can o' worms .




and from a players' viewpoint, what's wrong with that?


----------



## Ry

Well, it depends on the player.  My old crew hates raise dead, and they're not fans of what the game turns into after teleport (they start to wonder why anyone bothers building walls).  So from a player perspective there's lots of reasons not to want 10th level to be a game-world assumption.


----------



## Imp

I think I'm a convert to this, though I'm gonna go E8 (because I want to spread the love with second attacks, and because few 4th-level spells strike me as too terribly high-magically egregious, and a few particularly on the cleric side I think I actually want in the setting).

Many many thanks!


----------



## Ry

E8's been a popular topic of discussion, and I'm positive someobody out there is running such a game.   My major concerns are Reincarnation, Evards, and ... something else.  Kunimatyu (who's become something of my E6 Trusted Lieutenant) has given it even more consideration I think.


----------



## knight_isa

rycanada said:
			
		

> Can someone help me / Quasqueton?  I have no idea what's causing the error, I can open the file from work or home.




Both IE and Firefox opened them without problem for me.

I should point out that the "Save target as..." option that I prefer doesn't work--that tries to save attachment.htm or attachment.php instead.  I had to open them in a browser (the Save As... option was available once they were there, though).


----------



## knight_isa

Grimstaff said:
			
		

> As such, my progression chart would look something like this:
> 0xp        1st lvl
> 1000xp    bonus feat
> 2000xp    2nd lvl
> 4000xp    bonus feat
> 6000xp    3rd lvl
> 9000xp    bonus feat
> 12000xp   4th lvl
> 16000xp   bonus feat
> 20000xp   5th lvl
> 25000xp   bonus feat
> 30000xp   6th lvl
> +bonus feat each additional 5k xp
> 
> My hope is that this justifies the 6th lvl npcs in a my campaign being older than 18 or so ;-) and that it stretches out these fun low levels without too big of a gap between rewards.




I had considered something like that, but "these fun low levels" as you call them aren't as fun for me as 5th-6th, and that progression doubles the amount of time it takes to get to the "really fun levels".  Granted, I'm leaning toward E8 rather than E6, too.

It's important to remember some of the goals of E6:
1)  to maximize playing time within the levels that provide the most enjoyment.  If you and your players get the most enjoyment out of lower levels, then this would be great.  Personally, I like 5-8th or so best, and I like to get from 1st to 3rd as quickly as possible (or just start at 3rd).
2)  to minimize DM prep time.  Remember, in stock E6 you can use 1-6 level NPCs in published adventures/npc wikis/whatever as-is.  You only have to change higher-powered NPCs.  If you add a feat per level, you have to change _every_ NPC of level 2+ as well as a portion of your 1st level ones.  Or assume that everyone takes Skill Focus (some skill that will never impact the game) as their bonus feats.  (I should note that I like the feat/level approach in a non-E6 game, since feats are otherwise too scarce.  In E6, though, that isn't the case.)

Just some thoughts.


----------



## Imp

rycanada said:
			
		

> E8's been a popular topic of discussion, and I'm positive someobody out there is running such a game.   My major concerns are Reincarnation, Evards, and ... something else.  Kunimatyu (who's become something of my E6 Trusted Lieutenant) has given it even more consideration I think.



Hehe, Reincarnation.  Yeah, that spell is... yeah.  I hate it very much.  I've gotten rid of it.

Other possible problem spells seem to be Discern Lies (but for 8 minutes?  eh), Freedom of Movement, and Polymorph gets in there.  But I already kick out/ nerf some spells of even lower level that don't fit in the feel of the game to me, so that's not a huge huge problem.  On the other hand I want Neutralize Poison and Restoration.  The latter could be changed into an incantation or something under E6, though.

I'm back and forth on the double xp cost/ interspersed bonus feat part.  Good points for and against.


----------



## Grimstaff

Evilhalfling said:
			
		

> I like your chart grimstaff - I was contemplating one using the with the exact same guidelines.
> (x2 xp per level, a bonus feat at the halfway point)
> It solves a lot of my world building issues, making level six far more rare than it would be otherwise. (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3690144&postcount=6)
> 
> I would probably start PCs at 1/2 way to second lvl, to reduce their 1st lvl jitters. Is the halfway feat instead of the 1st level feat or in addition to it?  I was undecided.
> 
> Why 10th? that opens up the raise dead/teleport can o' worms that E6 otherwise prevents.



I actually am against the 10th lvl idea. I do like my games to have higher level magic, so I devised a quick feat to offset the lack of higher level spells:
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3735421&postcount=428
My issue is that a martial character can add to his hp's, BAB, AC, and weapon dmg almost indefintely, "expert"-types have lots of skill and save increasing feats, whereas spell slingers top out pretty quickly. I've seen some feat chains that avoid this in a roundabout way, but I'm a Core3 DM and would prefer one simple mechanic. Problem spells are taken care of in Role Play, the "Elminster/Mordenkainen"-types in the setting jealously guard their higher level spells, you can't just automatically get one, so barring luck and special spell-finding missions those extra high level slots are mostly going to be for metamagic feat use. For the divine sorts, spells of 4th level or higher are only cast with the deity's (DM's) participation and permission, so no worries of Rez abuse there.


----------



## MrNexx

I had this thought, if I remember correctly, while I was walking out of Barnes and Noble tonight. An absolutely outstanding application of the E6 mechanics would be to the Birthright setting.

First of all, you've got several ways your characters can grow; via feats from the E6 growth, and via bloodline strength, and via political strength. The world itself already assumes a much lower level of magical strength than is common in standard D&D campaigns, so capping it at E6 levels isn't that much of a stretch. For Magicians, bar them from EVERYTHING but Divination and Illusion, but throw in Shadow Evocation and Conjuration at level 3 illusion spells (mimicking 1st-3rd level spells of the Evocation or Conjuration schools, respectively). Bards could maintain their own spell lists, but properly pare them down to enchantments, illusions, and divinations ONLY. Only Sorcerers (using their elven or deific heritage) would be able to be full arcane casters; make additional spell knowledge a blood ability, perhaps, open to Vorynn's and, of course, Azrai's, line (in addition to being an E6 feat).  This preserves some of the uniqueness of Magicians as prepared casters, but also allows Sorcerers to harness their blood to get ahead.

A human power level, ritual magic as part of the background, unique monsters...The setting almost seems like it was BEGGING for E6 to come along.


----------



## Grimstaff

knight_isa said:
			
		

> I had considered something like that, but "these fun low levels" as you call them aren't as fun for me as 5th-6th, and that progression doubles the amount of time it takes to get to the "really fun levels".  Granted, I'm leaning toward E8 rather than E6, too.
> 
> It's important to remember some of the goals of E6:
> 1)  to maximize playing time within the levels that provide the most enjoyment.  If you and your players get the most enjoyment out of lower levels, then this would be great.  Personally, I like 5-8th or so best, and I like to get from 1st to 3rd as quickly as possible (or just start at 3rd).
> 2)  to minimize DM prep time.  Remember, in stock E6 you can use 1-6 level NPCs in published adventures/npc wikis/whatever as-is.  You only have to change higher-powered NPCs.  If you add a feat per level, you have to change _every_ NPC of level 2+ as well as a portion of your 1st level ones.  Or assume that everyone takes Skill Focus (some skill that will never impact the game) as their bonus feats.  (I should note that I like the feat/level approach in a non-E6 game, since feats are otherwise too scarce.  In E6, though, that isn't the case.)
> 
> Just some thoughts.



1) My issue here is making the campaign as a whole make sense to me and my players. If we want a long campaign with plenty of time for the players to stretch their legs at each level and get to know all the abilities and capabilities at each level, then the "Grimstaff Progression" is definitely the way to go. On the other hand, E6 at standard progression has the charm of being able to run 2 or 3 complete campaigns a year, in essence taking the PCs through a good trilogy of movies or books, and retiring them after 5 or 10 post-6 feats to live happily ever after.
2) This is a very good observation, I didn't consider that. At 6th level a character will have 5 bonus feats with my progression as opposed to 2, and at 3rd level 2 bonus feats instead of 1. To compensate, I could simply say "only Player characters and major NPCs get the bonus feats", or I could make an easy chart of standard feat adds. Something like this:
2rd lvl - add Toughness
4th lvl - add Alertness
5th lvl - add Iron Will (or other Save feat)
That way, I can just assume a 5th lvl has +3hp, +2 to Listen/Spot, and +2 to their weakest save and be done with it. No need to even write anything down that way (easyier is better!).


----------



## GlassJaw

Ryan,

I'm a huge fan of the work you've done here - great stuff.

I assume you've checked out the Sweet Spot thread that Wulf started.  He and I have talked a lot about this subject.

One thing we talked about is choosing the power range you want (the sweet spot) and then stretching that power range over a larger number of levels.

The main issue I have with E6 is that if 6th level is supposed to be the level of epic heroes, then how come they get there so fast?  Why not increase the time it takes to get there over say, 12 levels instead?  You can slow down the rate of advancement while still giving the characters more feats, abilities, whatever.


----------



## Ry

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> The main issue I have with E6 is that if 6th level is supposed to be the level of epic heroes, then how come they get there so fast?  Why not increase the time it takes to get there over say, 12 levels instead?  You can slow down the rate of advancement while still giving the characters more feats, abilities, whatever.




This depends a lot on your approach to combat.  Even in medieval times, there aren't a lot of people who can claim to have made it out of a 60 situations where their life was on the line (i.e. 60 combat encounters, about what you need to go from level 1 to 6).

E6 means that if Encounter 1 is "A bunch of Orcs attack you" it's not just what you do between lunch and dinner - it's the minions of Saruman trying to get the Ring from Frodo.

For my campaign E6 usually means no filler combats.  Does that make sense?


----------



## Geoffrey

Rycanada, thank you very much for your E6 concept. I run a variant C&C campaign, and your ideas got me thinking about capping things at 6th level in my C&C campaign. (So far the highest level any of the players has achieved was 6th, and that was as an assassin--one of the classes that rises in level the fastest in C&C.)

I've also studied Gary's old B2: Keep on the Borderlands module, and guess what? The highest level anyone is in that module is 6th level. The Castellan of the Keep is 6th level, and it's all down from there. Further, there is a small bank in the Keep ran by a RETIRED 3rd-level fighter and a 2nd-level magic-user. My goodness, if levels go up to 20, then what in the world is a 3rd-level fighter doing retiring? He barely got started! But (on the other hand) if 6th is as high as it goes (and is vanishingly rare--6th-level guys being the Conans of that world), then deciding to hang it up at 3rd level isn't very strange anymore.

I really like that vibe: That the Castellan is as good as it gets _anywhere_, not just in this module because it's for beginners. The 3rd-level evil priest with his 2nd-level adepts and army of skeletons and zombies in the Caves of Chaos are going to stay scary, no matter how long the PCs have been adventuring--because they can't go higher than 6th level.

I also like the fact that by capping things at 6th level, you don't have to keep upping everyone's levels just so the rest of the world doesn't seem like putzes compared to the PCs.  ("Hey, did you ever notice how when we were 3rd level, captains of the guard were around 5th level? And when we were 10th level, captains of the guard were around 12th level? And now that we're 16th level, captains of the guard are around 18th level? What's going on in this world?")

In short, you've really got me thinking. Thank you.


----------



## Ry

Geoffrey said:
			
		

> In short, you've really got me thinking. Thank you.




My pleasure Geoffrey!  EN World's been really awesome to me and E6.  

Now, how best to spoil the goodwill?  Continue on the Raising the Stakes bandwagon, try to get more playtesters for Conviction and the Death Flag, or cook up a call to arms style manifesto about iconography in the industry?


----------



## Imp

> The main issue I have with E6 is that if 6th level is supposed to be the level of epic heroes



FWIW my take on E6 is that 6th level is the realm of _all_ heroes, geniuses, sages, retired generals-turned-farmhands, etc. and the only thing that really truly separates the epic heroes from the other great men is their deeds (and to a certain extent their feats).  But I am wrestling with this a bit also. (besides figuring out what I am going to do with prestige classes that involves the best allowed-fun/personal-effort ratio  )


----------



## Ry

To Imp, Geoffrey: 

If you want to structure differently, you can say that 6th is "survived some danger and really important dudes" and say, 6th+20feats is "epic heroes"  

I think that's the E6erron approach, from what those guys have said (where are those guys?  Where are the E6 campaigns?)


----------



## Quasqueton

I still can't get the pdfs to work. I even tried download from the wiki page. And since no one else has said whether they've successfully downloaded the files lately, I'll assume the problem is at the other end.

Oh well. E6 looks interesting, but I can't get the rules.

Quasqueton


----------



## Ry

The .pdf is exactly the stuff on the first 2 posts (I've just downloaded it again to check it.  I'm practically certain the file is fine).  

Really, when it comes down to it, E6's rule is "Level normally till 6th, then gain a feat for every 5000 xp.  The DM is encouraged to allow some feats from sources outside the SRD."


----------



## GlassJaw

rycanada said:
			
		

> For my campaign E6 usually means no filler combats.  Does that make sense?




Yeah, it makes sense.  I just feel as a player, I would much prefer a longer progression chart rather than knowing my "numbers" are going to be capped relatively soon (unless you slow the rate at which you award XP).  More cookies the better IMO.

You could even tweak the progression chart after 6th to allow for faster advancement than as written in the PHB.


----------



## Ry

The numbers cap really ain't so bad in actual play, but I can understand it from a sell-it-to-the-players perspective.  Ask them what they can do with 10 feats


----------



## Will

Man. With 10 feats, you could actually be a decent mounted warrior without having to cut things to the bone.


----------



## Quasqueton

> The .pdf is exactly the stuff on the first 2 posts



OK. Thanks. I thought there was more stuff in the pdf. I'm good to go then.

Quasqueton


----------



## Will

You know, with considerations of race lately, I realized that E6 makes Sleep a bit more useful, and, thus, elves' immunity to it.


----------



## Nimloth

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> I still can't get the pdfs to work. I even tried download from the wiki page. And since no one else has said whether they've successfully downloaded the files lately, I'll assume the problem is at the other end.
> 
> Oh well. E6 looks interesting, but I can't get the rules.
> 
> Quasqueton



Yeah, the PDFs worked fine for me, it must be on your end. 



			
				GlassJaw said:
			
		

> One thing we talked about is choosing the power range you want (the sweet spot) and then stretching that power range over a larger number of levels.
> 
> The main issue I have with E6 is that if 6th level is supposed to be the level of epic heroes, then how come they get there so fast? Why not increase the time it takes to get there over say, 12 levels instead? You can slow down the rate of advancement while still giving the characters more feats, abilities, whatever



I assume you've read post 37, 58, 62 with Grmstaff's similar idea.  I think 1 of the reasons for keeping it RAW until 6th and then capping is to keep the rules changes as simple as possible.  Rycanada has stated in previous threads he wanted to limit changes to new feats.  I am sure an extended progression (or slower xp) and more feats as you level up (say, a feat every level) would work.  It would just require more changes to remember and more effort from the DM if you use modules.  Now, you really just have to change any higher CR monsters and any npcs over 6th level.  But if you change the system you will have to change most of the npc's and monster because a 3rd level character in your system is not the same as a standard 3rd level.

My take on the "Epicness" of 6th.  In E6 the best-of-the-best (aka: epic heros) are still mortal.  They can't casually take on adult dragons singlehandedly, and 100 orcs are likely to kill them (these happened IMC at 15th level).  So while technically "epic" it doesn't have the same meaning as a 21st level EPIC HERO.  Thus, I have no problem with every village having a 6th level character (usually older folks with physical stat penalties).  

I once read a thread about how, if you didn't use the training time between levels rules, a pc could go from 1 to 20 level in a couple of months.  4 encounters per day x 13 encounters per level come out to 60 days (or so).  Basically it comes down to the DM controlling the pace of the game.  If you don't want them to be 6th level when they're 18, just don't give adventures every few ingame days.  Let them have lives between adventures.


----------



## Stalker0

Nimloth said:
			
		

> I once read a thread about how, if you didn't use the training time between levels rules, a pc could go from 1 to 20 level in a couple of months.  4 encounters per day x 13 encounters per level come out to 60 days (or so).  Basically it comes down to the DM controlling the pace of the game.  If you don't want them to be 6th level when they're 18, just don't give adventures every few ingame days.  Let them have lives between adventures.




QFT. The "weirdness" about PCs vs NPCs is that pcs strangely get hit with monster after monster, and that these monster seem to mysteriously scale with the party's power, providing them even more challenge and improvement.

Of course, Npc aren't that lucky. Most of them will fight orcs till the day they die, just like Aragon in LOTR Or they will face something far too strong for them and get killed off. So high level npcs are still relatively rare. But high level pcs are there because they are blessed by fate (the dm)


----------



## Will

In my games, what typically happens is I have occasional comments like 'you get ambushed about 4 days in by a bunch of yokels. You kick their asses and keep moving.'

Or actually play it out, if it's a little closer, and have the highwaymen surrender when they realize how absolutely boned they are.

Or have the party notice people skulking in the woods who try to then flee, because: 'Uh, Steve, see that one guy?' "Yeah?" 'He has freakin rocks orbiting his head. I say we pass on this group.' "Well, I was going to comment about the woman with the glowing sword, but yeah."


I figure it's a filtering thing; either people can tell the PCs are obscenely more powerful, so the PCs only really deal with bigger challenges, or you simply gloss over the minor stuff like you do bodily functions.


----------



## Moggthegob

This system strikes me as very appropriate for Dark Sun and,to an extent, eberron. I say to an extent because there is some fairly scary  that your supposed to be able to take. But mostly I like the thinking. It also strikes me as old school Greyhawk, you kno before it was high-magic.


----------



## PoeticJustice

rycanada said:
			
		

> To Imp, Geoffrey:
> ...
> I think that's the E6erron approach, from what those guys have said (where are those guys?  Where are the E6 campaigns?)




Right here!

That's the approach I'm taking. The cap represents that a Hero is a Hero with varying degress of ability between them, as opposed to earth-shattering power or invulnerability (human with more HP than 6 warhorses, for example).

Most towns don't actually have heroes protecting them, but every 3rd or 4th does. In a big city like Sharn, there's plenty of master craftsmen making awesome magic items or whatever, but outside the big cities, the monsters rule.


----------



## Animus

rycanada said:
			
		

> To Imp, Geoffrey:
> 
> If you want to structure differently, you can say that 6th is "survived some danger and really important dudes" and say, 6th+20feats is "epic heroes"
> 
> I think that's the E6erron approach, ...




Exactly.


----------



## Kunimatyu

rycanada said:
			
		

> E8's been a popular topic of discussion, and I'm positive someobody out there is running such a game.   My major concerns are Reincarnation, Evards, and ... something else.  Kunimatyu (who's become something of my E6 Trusted Lieutenant) has given it even more consideration I think.




Bwahahaha!

Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of E8, because level 4 spells start to introduce the phenomenon of "magic that requires magic to defeat" -- which, necessarily, starts messing with class balance.

For example, take a spell like Solid Fog. An individual without either Gust of Wind or Dispel Magic is screwed -- they have no means to escape other than to lose 1-4 turns, depending on how it's centered. Improved Invisibility is another example -- a caster with that spell can harass the party relatively freely as long as Invisibility Purge, See Invis, Glitterdust, etc. haven't come into play. This phenomenon gets really bad with spells like Wall of Force and Forcecage, which require very special spells to overcome.

That's not to say there aren't level 4 spells that do not suffer from these problems -- Wall of Fire is my usual example, since it deals damage and functions as battlefield control, but the fighter can just take the damage and jump through the wall to get the wizard, as opposed to being totally shafted. The 4 alignment spells (Holy Smite, Chaos Hammer, etc.) I also don't view as problematic, since the damage + 1 round status effect combo isn't particularly broken.

With all of this in mind, I prefer E6, with select 4th level spells available as 1/day feats,  as opposed to E8.

Now to finish my mini-setting document for Dictionary of Mu, finish the players roster, and start this grand experiment myself.


----------



## Will

You know, it's far too late, but this would have been an EXCELLENT approach to Scarred Lands.

The setting always struggled with the premise of a fairly low, magic-poor world, but was D&D, with all the high-level goofiness that entails.


----------



## shdwrnr

So I've been working this E6 campaign since I found out about it. On the topic of high level spells, I noticed another that you're missing that's fairly important:

*Atonement [SPELL]*
Prerequisite: Spellfocus (abjuration), Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks, divine caster level 6th.
Benefit: You can use _atonement_, as the spell (paying focus and XP costs normally), with a casting time of 1 hour.

You can get away without if you roleplay it, but otherwise this 5th level spell is a must.


----------



## Will

What I would do, for specific spells that are nifty, is the following:

You can create a scroll or one-shot item of N by doing an appropriate series of quests (research, etc.). Part of the treasure reward for the quest is the book cost of said item.

So Atonement as a one-shot use item like a potion (assume any XP comes from the PC) would cost 2250 gp on the open market, if the market actually had such things.

Instead, the character searches for a way to atone, and learns he must defeat (various) and do (stuff). The treasure value for one PC's share of that is 2250 gp...


A wizard with scribe scroll might use the same process, finding rare phoenix feathers and earth elemental essence to inscribe a scroll of Wall of Fire.

And so on.

It gives you a flavored, GM-moderated way with inherent limiters to include higher level spells into the game.


----------



## shdwrnr

Still working on my campaign. While working I created the following list to help with placing magic items. It follow's EvilHalfling's wonderous items lists.

[sblock=Armor and Shields]
ARMOR/SHIELD BONUSES
NOTE – Prices do not include cost of masterwork armor or shield.
+1 Enhancement Bonus: CL 3, 1,000gp.
+2 Enhancement Bonus: CL 6, 4,000gp.
Acid Resistance: CL 3, 18,000gp.
Arrow Deflection: CL 5, 4,000gp.
Cold Resistance: CL 3, 18,000gp.
Electricity Resistance: CL 3, 18,000gp.
Fire Resistance: CL 3, 18,000gp.
Shadow: CL 5, 3,750gp.
Silent Moves: CL 5, 3,750gp.
Slick: CL 4, 3,750gp.
Sonic Resistance: CL 3, 18,000gp.

SPECIFIC ARMORS
Celestial Armor: CL 5, 22,400gp.
Mithral Full Plate of Speed: CL 5, 26,500gp.

SPECIFIC SHIELDS
Caster’s Shield: CL 6, 3,153gp.
Spined Shield: CL 6, 5,580gp.
Winged Shield: CL 5, 17,257gp
[/sblock]
[sblock=Weapons]
WEAPON BONUSES
NOTE – Prices do not include cost of masterwork weapon.
+1 Enhancement Bonus: CL 3, 2,000gp.
+2 Enhancement Bonus: CL 6, 8,000gp.
Distance: CL 6, 2,000gp.
Merciful: CL 5, 2,000gp.
Thundering: CL 5, 2,000gp.
Throwing: CL 5, 2,000gp.

SPECIFIC WEAPONS
Dagger of Venom: CL 5, 8,302gp.
Javelin of Lightning: CL 5, 1,500gp.
Screaming Bolt: CL 5, 267gp.
Sleep Arrow: CL 5, 132gp.
[/sblock]
[sblock=Rings]
RINGS
Animal Friendship: CL 3, 10,800gp.
Chameleon Power: CL 3, 12,700gp.
Climbing: CL 5, 2,500gp.
Climbing, Improved: CL 5, 10,000gp. (10 ranks of climb can be achieved with the Skill Beyond Your Years feat)
Energy Resistance, Minor: CL 3, 12,000gp.
Feather Falling: CL 1, 2,200gp.
Invisibility: CL 3, 20,000gp.
Jumping: CL 2, 2,500gp.
Mind Shielding: CL 3, 8,000gp.
Protection +1: CL 5, 2,000gp.
Protection +2: CL 6, 8,000gp.
Spell Storing, Minor: CL 5, 18,000gp.
Sustenance: CL 5, 2,500gp.
Swimming: CL 2, 2,500gp.
X-Ray Vision: CL 6, 25,000gp.
[/sblock]

All items come from the DMG, have a caster level of 6 or less, and require spells of 3rd level or lower.


----------



## Ry

Nice work shdwrnr, I'll add that list of items to the main post.  Atonement makes me more uneasy but that's only because I'm generally uneasy with how alignment is built into 3e, not because of power issues.


----------



## Ry

Kuni, could you write a Wall of Fire feat?  Did you do so in the last thread?  A Cone of Cold feat would be sweet too if we could get an appropriate version of it.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Remember that you can use incantations for any sort of spell effect that you want to occur in the game, but that you don't want to have generally available for daily use.

I would restrict Atonement to minor divine artifacts, so that the PCs have to travel to a holy site to Atone.

RC


----------



## Miar

Have to say I like this method better.. It goes along with the Gandalf was a 5th lv wizard thing in that you don't have characters getting skill ranks beyond reality (give or take)



			
				Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> I just wanted to chime in and say that I am pretty intrigued by this concept. I have no idea if I will ever run a E6 game, but it sounds interesting.
> 
> Some Notes about skills:
> I would recommend against increasing the attainable rank to high - Otherwise, you might up getting the same effect as leveling certain characters. (But I think it should be possible to expand a characters skills further)
> An alternate suggestion would be to just lower the skill requisites, or add some feats that increases your skill ranks for the purposes of qualifying for feats.
> Further skill improvement should (in my opinion at least) not increase _what_ the characters can achieve, but how easy it is for them get a possible result.
> Examples might be (stealing from Star Wars Saga Edition):
> 
> Improved Skill Focus
> Prerequisite: Skill Focus in the skill in question:
> Take any one skill you have the skill focus feat in. Your effective rank is considered 2 points higher for determining if you qualify for a feat. In addition, you may decide to reroll any check made with the skill. You must take the reroll result, even if it is worse.
> 
> Greater Skill Focus
> Prerequisite: Improved Skill Focus in the skill in question
> Take any one skill you have the Improved Skill Focus feat in. Your effective rank is considered 2 points higher for determining if you qualify for a feat (this benefit stacks with Improved Skill Focus). In addition, you may always choose to reroll the skill and take the higher result.
> 
> Improved Skill Mastery
> Prerequisite: Skill Mastery
> Choose a number of skills equal to 3 + your Int Modifier in which you have the Skill Mastery  for.You may now take 15 on the skill, which works identically as taking 10, except that your result is 5 points higher.
> 
> Greater Skill Mastery
> Prerequisite: Improved Skill Mastery
> Choose a number of skills equal to 3 + your Int Modifier in which you have the Skill Mastery feat. When taking 20, you require only half the usual time.
> 
> Or mix and combine the benefits of these feats like you prefer.
> 
> I would also recommend using the PHB II retraining rules a lot more - these make a lot of sense now. Characters now can change their focus, and losing skills, ability points, feats or even class levels for alternate ones basically emulates "skill degredation". If you begin to focus on something else, your other abilities fade...
> (I would put some limit on class retraining: I think the first character level should be "set in stone", so that nobody ever forgets how he began...)


----------



## Kunimatyu

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> Remember that you can use incantations for any sort of spell effect that you want to occur in the game, but that you don't want to have generally available for daily use.
> 
> I would restrict Atonement to minor divine artifacts, so that the PCs have to travel to a holy site to Atone.
> 
> RC




I agree, the Atonement spell would make an excellent incantation. I'd actually like to have a small list of incantations associated with E6 that allow for basic game mechanics(restoration, stone to flesh, atonement, break enchantment) present in the higher level spells, with a small list of associated mishaps that can be used. Raise Dead/Reincarnate should probably be there in some fashion, but in a way that makes them important storyline events and not just 5K in diamonds down the drain.


----------



## Kunimatyu

rycanada said:
			
		

> Kuni, could you write a Wall of Fire feat?  Did you do so in the last thread?  A Cone of Cold feat would be sweet too if we could get an appropriate version of it.




Here's my first take...

*Wall of Fire (General)*
Prerequisites: Caster level 6th, ability to cast an Evocation [fire] spell.
Benefit: Once per day, you may cast _wall of fire_ at your caster level.

(design note: The wording on this one is deliberately set up to allow Druids and Fire domain clerics to gain access to it, and I think it's possible for a warlock to as well.)

*Cone of Cold (General)*
Prerequisites: Arcane caster level 5, ability to cast 3rd-level Evocation spells.
Benefit: _Cone of cold_ is considered to be a 3rd level arcane spell for you in all respects, and can deal up to 10d6 damage. 
Special: If you cast spells spontaneously, _cone of cold_ is added to your list of spells known.

(design note: I've never been able to figure out why Cone of Cold was higher-level than Fireball -- 60ft cones are almost always worse than 20ft radius targeted bursts, and both fire and cold are commonly resisted energy types. Plus, I like the symmetry of having a 120ft lightning line, a 20ft fire burst, and a 60ft cold cone as 3rd level evocation spells -- all that's missing is a 3rd level conjuration acid ranged touch attack, but sadly Orb of Acid isn't SRD.)

Here's two more freebies:

*Ice Storm (General)*
Prerequisites: Caster level 6, ability to cast an Evocation [Cold] spell.
Benefit: Once per day, you may cast _ice storm_ at your caster level.

(Once again, prereqs are opened up for clerics and druids.)

*Alignment Master (General)*
Prerequisites: Cleric level 6, ability to cast spells from either the Good, Evil, Law, or Chaos domains.
Benefit: Choose one of your alignment domains. Once per day, you gain the ability to cast your 4th level domain spell using your divine caster level.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time it applies to a different domain.

(I don't like alignment myself, but it's a feature of D&D3.5 at the moment, and the spells aren't overpowered and give clerics something fun to do.)


----------



## Hrothgar Rannúlfr

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> all that's missing is a 3rd level conjuration acid ranged touch attack, but sadly Orb of Acid isn't SRD.)



Could we make a simliar spell feat and call it something else?  Like "Acidic Burst"?


----------



## Kunimatyu

Hrothgar Rannúlfr said:
			
		

> Could we make a simliar spell feat and call it something else?  Like "Acidic Burst"?




Of course. Doing so in a non-clunky fashion may be hard, however.

Since it'll have no saving throw, level isn't that important, and neither is school. It ignores SR, so having it as a supernatural ability rather than a spell would streamline things(although nobody realizes that about supernatural abilities, so perhaps it wouldn't).

So, d6 x caster level, close range, acid touch attack, 3rd level slot, and ignores SR are the important things. Let's try:

*Acid Blast (General)*
Prerequisites: Arcane caster level 5, ability to cast Conjuration[acid] spells.
Benefit: By expending a 3rd level spell slot, you may fire an orb of acid as a ranged touch attack. The orb has a range of 25 feet plus 5 feet per two caster levels, and deals 1d6 acid damage per caster level, maximum 10d6. The orb ignores Spell Resistance, and is treated as a 3rd level Conjuration[acid] spell in all respects.
Special: If you prepare arcane spells, you may prepare Acid Blast as if it was a 3rd level spell.


----------



## Imp

I'd just make up a spell.  3rd level, 10' radius acid splash, 1d4/level, half damage next round, or something.  Maybe a brief status effect.

(still going back & forth on E8 vs. E6... whether 'tis easier to nerf/ change/ ban existing spells or grandfather in a bunch of others via feats, aye, that is the question; that and a few others)


----------



## Scribble

I really like this concept...

As a DM I always start to get "bored" of my current campaign once it bounces out of this level range... 

I think I'm going to try this, but IO'm also going to add in a few things that I got from Monte Cooke's website... Most importantly the minor and major feats idea...  Instead of just one feat you can take one major or two minor feats... (Minor feats being things that give you cool abilities but which most likely won't come into play all tat much...)


----------



## Kunimatyu

Imp said:
			
		

> (still going back & forth on E8 vs. E6... whether 'tis easier to nerf/ change/ ban existing spells or grandfather in a bunch of others via feats, aye, that is the question; that and a few others)




Player psychology is also very important here. Making it seem like options are open, then banning them, tends to annoy people more than a known restriction at the outset, even if a few exceptions creep in.

My own feelings swing towards E6, because I'd prefer to exclude 4th level spells, and then slowly bring a few of them back in.

Here's my basic rubric for including 4/5th level spells in E6:
1) Is there a spell of levels 1-3 that does basically the same thing?
2) Does the effect of this spell realistically require an opposing magic user to neutralize its effects?
3) Is the effect of this spell significantly out-of-line with the effects of a 3rd level spell?

If you can answer "No." to all three, the spell is probably a decent candidate for conversion.


----------



## Imp

Well, I've already stepped in it as far as removing spells goes, having taken out a smattering of 2nd and even 1st-level spells, not even necessarily because they're overpowered, but because they do wonky things to the flavor of the setting.  F'rex, I cannot reconcile a "low-magic" feel with _enlarge person_, which isn't overpowered, but it's just freaky as a standard low-level buff.  But you are making good points, Kunimatyu, thanks.


----------



## Quasqueton

Maybe I've overlooked the explanation, but why do you call this "E6"? I figure the 6 is for level six, but what is the "E"?

Is it legal to edit the SRD down and post it (for free)?

Quasqueton


----------



## GlassEye

I wondered the same thing when I first started reading E6 threads.  It took me a long while to find the answer, but the 'E' is for epic.  Characters become epic at 6th level (compared to everyone else, I guess), so...E6.


----------



## Kunimatyu

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> Maybe I've overlooked the explanation, but why do you call this "E6"? I figure the 6 is for level six, but what is the "E"?
> 
> Is it legal to edit the SRD down and post it (for free)?
> 
> Quasqueton




1) E6 stands for "Epic 6", because a 6th level D&D character is capable of being an epic hero, as the first post in this thread illustrates.

2) I'm not really sure. I think Ryan prefers the idea of E6 being a small pdf that you add to your existing stuff, and my own preference is similar.


----------



## Kunimatyu

Just a quick plug - my E6 campaign is starting up in the Davis, California area if any ENWorlders are interested.


----------



## Cheiromancer

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> Is it legal to edit the SRD down and post it (for free)?




Of course.  If you attach the OGL license at the end.


----------



## shdwrnr

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> *Alignment Master (General)*
> Prerequisites: Cleric level 6, ability to cast spells from either the Good, Evil, Law, or Chaos domains.
> Benefit: Choose one of your alignment domains. Once per day, you gain the ability to cast your 4th level domain spell using your divine caster level.
> Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time it applies to a different domain.
> 
> (I don't like alignment myself, but it's a feature of D&D3.5 at the moment, and the spells aren't overpowered and give clerics something fun to do.)




If you add this then add Axiomatic, Anarchic, Holy, and Unholy as attainable magic weapon bonuses. Each requires Caster Level 7th and the 4th level domain spell for the law, chaos, good, and evil domain (granted power is +1 to caster level for those spells).


----------



## Kunimatyu

shdwrnr said:
			
		

> If you add this then add Axiomatic, Anarchic, Holy, and Unholy as attainable magic weapon bonuses. Each requires Caster Level 7th and the 4th level domain spell for the law, chaos, good, and evil domain (granted power is +1 to caster level for those spells).




That's a bit problematic, as a _+1 holy sword_ is a +3 equivalent weapon, and as such would require a 9th level caster, which is outside the range of E6 quite considerably. Even if it was possible to make a holy sword based on my feat above, I'd prefer not to because other +3 weapons are off limits.

The Magic Item Compendium has a +1 equivalent quality called blessed (good aligned and 3/day you can auto-confirm crits versus an evil creature) -- I'd rather just extrapolate that quality, if I felt the need. Personally, I prefer changing the alignment monikers to [supernatural] and having Magic Circle vs. Supernatural, for instance.

All of this, though, exists on the periphery of E6 as house-rules-ish stuff, and I doubt it'd make a good addition to the basic document.

(As a small side-note, I find that the Magic Item Compendium is a GREAT E6 resource, as most of the items are both flavorful and have low caster level requirements. Almost as if WotC knows what level range in the game is most played...)


----------



## Scribble

Have you looked into messing around with the weapons of Legacy rules for this?

Seems like they would be a natural addition to the game... Most items/weapons being somewhat low powered except for a few... Maybe re-tool them a bit to make them fit better. (because a lot of the powers happen after 5th level...)


----------



## Kunimatyu

Scribble said:
			
		

> Have you looked into messing around with the weapons of Legacy rules for this?
> 
> Seems like they would be a natural addition to the game... Most items/weapons being somewhat low powered except for a few... Maybe re-tool them a bit to make them fit better. (because a lot of the powers happen after 5th level...)




Not really, although I suspect as long as you capped advancement at a +2 it would work, since most of the minor abilities simply aren't that strong. What I probably would require, is for the player to take a Legacy feat (or multiples, based on how that little menu system works) in order to get their desired ability, and to cap anything beyond the level that allows +2. The negative hp/save/skill modifiers don't work nearly so well, since the numbers don't progress the same way in E6.

In short, there's probably a way to make it work, but I'd probably just link the menu abilities to gaining a generic Legacy feat -- any more complex analysis will have to wait for another more dedicated individual.


----------



## Scribble

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Not really, although I suspect as long as you capped advancement at a +2 it would work, since most of the minor abilities simply aren't that strong. What I probably would require, is for the player to take a Legacy feat (or multiples, based on how that little menu system works) in order to get their desired ability, and to cap anything beyond the level that allows +2. The negative hp/save/skill modifiers don't work nearly so well, since the numbers don't progress the same way in E6.
> 
> In short, there's probably a way to make it work, but I'd probably just link the menu abilities to gaining a generic Legacy feat -- any more complex analysis will have to wait for another more dedicated individual.





Kuni, thats sort of my thinking too... The negative penalties wouldn't work, but the flavor of the system works well...  (When I run an e6 I'm going to look into messing with the legacy system... )


----------



## Hrothgar Rannúlfr

*Beowulf and Grendel*

I just got to watch the DVD of Beowulf and Grendel, this evening.

Definitely an ancient and epic tale that could be told using E6.


----------



## Hrothgar Rannúlfr

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Of course. Doing so in a non-clunky fashion may be hard, however.
> 
> Since it'll have no saving throw, level isn't that important, and neither is school. It ignores SR, so having it as a supernatural ability rather than a spell would streamline things(although nobody realizes that about supernatural abilities, so perhaps it wouldn't).
> 
> So, d6 x caster level, close range, acid touch attack, 3rd level slot, and ignores SR are the important things. Let's try:
> 
> *Acid Blast (General)*
> Prerequisites: Arcane caster level 5, ability to cast Conjuration[acid] spells.
> Benefit: By expending a 3rd level spell slot, you may fire an orb of acid as a ranged touch attack. The orb has a range of 25 feet plus 5 feet per two caster levels, and deals 1d6 acid damage per caster level, maximum 10d6. The orb ignores Spell Resistance, and is treated as a 3rd level Conjuration[acid] spell in all respects.
> Special: If you prepare arcane spells, you may prepare Acid Blast as if it was a 3rd level spell.



I guess I'm missing something... Why wouldn't it have a saving throw for 1/2 damage?  And, why would it ignore SR?

Very curious.


----------



## shdwrnr

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> That's a bit problematic, as a _+1 holy sword_ is a +3 equivalent weapon, and as such would require a 9th level caster, which is outside the range of E6 quite considerably. Even if it was possible to make a holy sword based on my feat above, I'd prefer not to because other +3 weapons are off limits.




The item creation rules say that, yes, a suit of armor or weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have a special ability. However, it also says that when you mix enhancement bonuses and special abilities, you use the higher of the caster levels, you don't convert the special ability into an enhancement bonus. Thus, a +1 holy sword would be CL 7th (3rd for +1 enhancement, 7th for holy) and not 9th because of a +3 enhancement bonus equivilency.

What I would do is just retool the limits, just as the class levels have been retooled. Clearly a +2 enhancement bonus is the highest you can get since the highest core CL would be 6th. I would then limit the total bonus to +4 (down from +10, but still double max enhancement bonus). This would make a +2 Merciful Thundering Warhammer the mechanical equivilent to a +10 weapon.


----------



## Kunimatyu

Hrothgar Rannúlfr said:
			
		

> I guess I'm missing something... Why wouldn't it have a saving throw for 1/2 damage?  And, why would it ignore SR?
> 
> Very curious.




It's a ranged touch attack, single-target. It ignores SR because it's literally conjured acid, just like a Melf's Acid Arrow. Fireball, lightning bolt, and cone of cold cover the basic elemental types and area spreads (no, cylinder doesn't count), so acid is a single-target ranged touch attack, like almost all acid spells. Also, typically, ranged touch attacks never have saves for half damage -- scorching ray would be another example.

For those wondering, the "real" Orb of Acid works just like mine, but with a status effect on a failed save. Losing the status effect works nicely for lowering it to a 3rd level spell, IMO.


----------



## Kunimatyu

shdwrnr said:
			
		

> What I would do is just retool the limits, just as the class levels have been retooled. Clearly a +2 enhancement bonus is the highest you can get since the highest core CL would be 6th. I would then limit the total bonus to +4 (down from +10, but still double max enhancement bonus). This would make a +2 Merciful Thundering Warhammer the mechanical equivilent to a +10 weapon.




That's one way you can do it, though I myself am not a fan of adjective adjective adjective weapons - I prefer weapons with one signature quality, with smaller, more tangential qualities addable via things like the MIC's gems.

For example, let's say you kill a dragon, and the eyes crystallize - with a few magic words spoken over them, you can merge one with your sword, giving it a faint echo of the dragon's flame (+1d6 fire), that sort of thing.

It really, really depends on the setting, though -- some things work well in one setting, and do not work at all in another.


----------



## joela

*Ran a (hopefully future) E6 game over the weekend*

Ran my first DnD game in nearly 20 years last weekend. Setting was a pseudo-OA/Lot5R with all the PCs starting at 6E+1 feat. Used Action Points and Players Roll All The Dice from UA. Learned a few things:

None of the players have ever played third level, apparently. Or at least in DnD 3.5. They were awed at just kickarsed they could be against CR 1-3 foes. 

Playing heroes and champions of the clans (with entourage and retinue!) makes a BIG difference in terms of running one's character, apparently. Why worry about gold pieces or the power of your magic items when people are lowering their eyes/deeply bowing/kneeing before you while your servants carry you while provide you saki? 

Stunts, stunts, stunts! Want your PC to run up the treant's back? Sure. Do a tumble check to avoid an AoO, then make either a Jump or Climb check against a DC 20? Did it? Now you're on its head. I'm trying to simulate Hercules/Xena and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon/Matrix/Lord of the Rings here, not a tactical wargame. 

Basically, if you treat the PCs as heroes -- and bend the rules to do so -- I don't think it should be too much of a problem to sixth level as the "sweet spot". I hope that, if they continue to enjoy my games, they'll ask it to be a part of our monthly game evening.


----------



## GlassEye

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> So, d6 x caster level, close range, acid touch attack, 3rd level slot, and ignores SR are the important things. Let's try:
> 
> *Acid Blast (General)*
> Prerequisites: Arcane caster level 5, ability to cast Conjuration[acid] spells.
> Benefit: By expending a 3rd level spell slot, you may fire an orb of acid as a ranged touch attack. The orb has a range of 25 feet plus 5 feet per two caster levels, and deals 1d6 acid damage per caster level, maximum 10d6. The orb ignores Spell Resistance, and is treated as a 3rd level Conjuration[acid] spell in all respects.
> Special: If you prepare arcane spells, you may prepare Acid Blast as if it was a 3rd level spell.




Personally, I'd have it subject to SR despite the official orb spells.  And I'd change the descriptive text to say 'ray of acidic spray' instead of orb just to avoid that reference to the spell.

Incantations have been mentioned before but I'll mention 'em again because I really prefer the incantation concept over making each higher level spell I want to include into a feat.  This makes combat spells of a higher level unusable but I think when/if I get the chance to run E6 I'll make use of UA's Metamagic Components to compensate for that.


----------



## Kunimatyu

GlassEye said:
			
		

> Personally, I'd have it subject to SR despite the official orb spells.  And I'd change the descriptive text to say 'ray of acidic spray' instead of orb just to avoid that reference to the spell.




Oh, I'm ignoring the official orb spells -- it isn't subject to SR because it's the big version of spells like Acid Splash and Melf's Acid Arrow, neither of which allows SR.

It's the other elemental orbs ignoring SR that annoys me, but acid -- provided it's a single-target ranged touch attack -- doesn't particularly irk me balance or flavor-wise. It also creates a nice symmetry within the 4 3rd level elemental damage spells -- you can produce a line, cone, burst, or ranged touch attack, with the Elemental Substitution metamagic feat used to switch up on the types.

I'm reluctant to put "ray" down because of the potential interactions with the Split Ray metamagic feat.


----------



## Ry

Sonic Ray?


----------



## Kunimatyu

rycanada said:
			
		

> Sonic Ray?




I'd rather just make a "3rd level substitution" feat for Shout, I think, since sonic is an extremely powerful energy type.

By they way, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the way I handled Cone of Cold - do you like the idea of it being a "normal" 3rd level spell alongside Lightning Bolt and Fireball?


----------



## Ry

Oh yeah, Cone of Cold should have always been 3rd level

This was the kind of thing I try not to talk about or do much of in my own game until players care, but honestly I think it makes lots of sense and fits the game well.


----------



## Deuce Traveler

I just wanted to say that I really think this is a neat idea.


----------



## Ry

Deuce Traveler said:
			
		

> I just wanted to say that I really think this is a neat idea.




Thanks Deuce!  EN World is awesome, as always.


----------



## joela

*Convincing players*

my pseudo-OA game last week was fun. now, before they ask if their pcs leveled up, i want to convince the players to give E6 a try. 

so, for those who are currently running an e6 campaign, are seriously considering, or tried to convince your players but failed, how'd you do it? what worked to convince (or not convince) your players? what would you chose to do next time that may increase your chances?


----------



## Scribble

joela said:
			
		

> my pseudo-OA game last week was fun. now, before they ask if their pcs leveled up, i want to convince the players to give E6 a try.
> 
> so, for those who are currently running an e6 campaign, are seriously considering, or tried to convince your players but failed, how'd you do it? what worked to convince (or not convince) your players? what would you chose to do next time that may increase your chances?





Well I haven't started yet, but I did talk to one of the players about it... I haven't talked to the other, but the one I did talk to is the one I feared would hate it... He said the power gamer in him was edgy... but it sounded interesting.

But my group consists of two long time friends who also happened to move to SF at roughly the same time I did... so we've been gaming together for a long time, and they are generally open to anything...


----------



## Ry

joela said:
			
		

> my pseudo-OA game last week was fun. now, before they ask if their pcs leveled up, i want to convince the players to give E6 a try.  so, for those who are currently running an e6 campaign, are seriously considering, or tried to convince your players but failed, how'd you do it? what worked to convince (or not convince) your players? what would you chose to do next time that may increase your chances?




"Hey, I'll run a game in the downtown after work on Wednesdays, but this is my house rule..."

Not a lot to offer, I know.  Also, 2 of my players are off-and-on DMs, and new to my group.  In fact, one of the biggest things that got my game legs under me was being willing to say "Hey, E6 isn't for everybody, but I bet I can find 5 players that go for it." rather than trying to pigeonhole my old group into it.


----------



## Kunimatyu

Scribble said:
			
		

> ... He said the power gamer in him was edgy... but it sounded interesting.




The way to get a powergamer excited about E6 is to point out all the feat-intensive builds there were never possible with the core rules -- E6 lets non-fighters pick up 10+ feats to interact with their normal class abilities, and this can allow some seriously fun stuff.

Then he'll come up with like ten different character ideas he wants to try, and the hook is set...


----------



## Scribble

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> The way to get a powergamer excited about E6 is to point out all the feat-intensive builds there were never possible with the core rules -- E6 lets non-fighters pick up 10+ feats to interact with their normal class abilities, and this can allow some seriously fun stuff.
> 
> Then he'll come up with like ten different character ideas he wants to try, and the hook is set...





That's pretty much it... Just always have a neat comeback talking about the feats...

Like when he brought up the fact that it eliminates most PR Classes... I said, yeah... but with the feat selection you have, it'll be possible to emulate the spirit of the role in a way you can't do with just PRC selection... He seemed to like that.

I'm planniong to make things a little different then the standard seems to be here though... I'm going to offer major and minor feats (where you can select two minor or 1 major anytime you get a feat slot...)


----------



## Ry

Are major and minor feats defined mechanically or is it on a case-by-case basis as determined by the DM?


----------



## Turanil

joela said:
			
		

> So, for those who are currently running an e6 campaign, are seriously considering, or tried to convince your players but failed, how'd you do it? what worked to convince (or not convince) your players? what would you chose to do next time that may increase your chances?



Well, I don't know if it would work, but I would point this: As players, we usually want to get higher in level, 1) out of curiosity ("I want to try those cool powers and spells"), 2) for power ("I want to be a hero"). 

The #1 can be somewhat taken care of in giving feats every 5000 XP, especially if you give custom feats, including feats that will be designed with the player to suit their wishes. The #2 is a matter of how the DM runs his campaign. Usually, as long as PCs level, the world around them level accordingly with monsters increasing in power. So it's a race and a hunger for more of everything, in the false hope PCs will eventually be the "real masters". However, in E6 you could keep the world constant, being dangerous at 1st/2nd level, but being no more at 5th-6th level; and at 6th level PCs would be ready to get to those haunted castles, dreaded forests, etc., that everybody fear and that they would have not dare to enter at lower levels. So there still is challenging adventures, yet the PCs are now the respected high-up of the campaign, knowing there isn't _always_ some Elminster or unknown 25th level brigand around more powerful than they are. 

Finally, tell them that while they will still have a sense of accomplisment/power along geting more abilities over time, that at low levels the game should be more rapid to run, where a 15th level fight often takes an entire gaming session.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Just tell them that this is the best game design you've since since the d20 System started, and they'd be fools not to try it.


RC


----------



## Scribble

rycanada said:
			
		

> Are major and minor feats defined mechanically or is it on a case-by-case basis as determined by the DM?




A little bit of both.  I can't take credit for the design.. it's a Monte Cook thing...

Minor feats are the ones that are cool abilities but no one ever takes because they are only used occasionally.  The example he used was the ability to stick to the ceiling for a short period of time... A neat ability, but one that won't come up all that much... (As opposed to say power attack or cleave...)

So ultimately since it's not already done, it will be a DM call on if it's really minor or not, but backed up with some mechanics...


----------



## joela

*power gaming*



			
				Scribble said:
			
		

> ... He said the power gamer in him was edgy...




As far as I can tell, no one in the current group is a power-gamer so that may not be as much of an issue.


----------



## Scribble

joela said:
			
		

> As far as I can tell, no one in the current group is a power-gamer so that may not be as much of an issue.




Power gaming (to me at least) means something different in 3e then it did in previous editions...

In 3e, the combos are pretty much laid out and designed to be taken advantage of... wheas in previous editions PGs eeked out bonuses in whatever ridiculous method they could find...


----------



## joela

*feat combos*



			
				Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> The way to get a powergamer excited about E6 is to point out all the feat-intensive builds there were never possible with the core rules -- E6 lets non-fighters pick up 10+ feats to interact with their normal class abilities, and this can allow some seriously fun stuff.
> 
> Then he'll come up with like ten different character ideas he wants to try, and the hook is set...




LOL. I was thinking something similar. There are some really cool feats out there that it would take several PCs to use them all at one point or another. 

I'm also toying with the idea of "temporary" feats where, after long, arduous quests, the PCs gain a feat that grants them the class abilities higher than 6th (e.g., 12th or even 18th level). Catch, of course, it's temporary, with some risk associated with the boost like permanently being turned into an outsider, suffer 1 point of non-lethal damage per day that can't be healed, etc. 

With such a feat -- and much of the world still scaled to E6 -- I don't think players will miss magic items when fireballs are at 10d6 or skills are capped at 18+3 ... for a while.


----------



## joela

*feats, major and minor*



			
				Scribble said:
			
		

> Like when he brought up the fact that it eliminates most PR Classes... I said, yeah... but with the feat selection you have, it'll be possible to emulate the spirit of the role in a way you can't do with just PRC selection... He seemed to like that.




Good point. Could make a swashbuckling rogue without all that multi-classing stuff. Or a real kickarse battlemage with, again, no-MCing. By the way, is there a feat that'll allow non-melee classes like wizards able to wield martial weapons?  



			
				Scribble said:
			
		

> I'm planniong to make things a little different then the standard seems to be here though... I'm going to offer major and minor feats (where you can select two minor or 1 major anytime you get a feat slot...)




Major and minor? Is that similar to D20 Future where you get two feats -- or something like them -- for one?


----------



## joela

*heroes*



			
				Turanil said:
			
		

> Well, I don't know if it would work, but I would point this: As players, we usually want to get higher in level, 1) out of curiosity ("I want to try those cool powers and spells"), 2) for power ("I want to be a hero").




I was able to convey the latter pretty well in my OA one-shot where the PCs were all champions of their clan and families. Mook rules made mincemeat against 0 and 1st level opponents so that, when the PCs discovered somebodies able to take out a treant(!), that they knew they were the only ones able to stop it.


----------



## joela

*fools*



			
				Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> Just tell them that this is the best game design you've since since the d20 System started, and they'd be fools not to try it.
> 
> 
> RC




uh, i don't think that'll go over too well  :\


----------



## joela

*Mc*



			
				Scribble said:
			
		

> A little bit of both.  I can't take credit for the design.. it's a Monte Cook thing...
> 
> Minor feats are the ones that are cool abilities but no one ever takes because they are only used occasionally.  The example he used was the ability to stick to the ceiling for a short period of time... A neat ability, but one that won't come up all that much... (As opposed to say power attack or cleave...)
> 
> So ultimately since it's not already done, it will be a DM call on if it's really minor or not, but backed up with some mechanics...




Sources?


----------



## Scribble

joela said:
			
		

> Good point. Could make a swashbuckling rogue without all that multi-classing stuff. Or a real kickarse battlemage with, again, no-MCing. By the way, is there a feat that'll allow non-melee classes like wizards able to wield martial weapons?




Yeah... Martial Weapon Proficiency...  It's in the PHB   Of course it won't boost their attack  bonuses any... But hey... 



> Major and minor? Is that similar to D20 Future where you get two feats -- or something like them -- for one?




see above...


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

joela said:
			
		

> Good point. Could make a swashbuckling rogue without all that multi-classing stuff. Or a real kickarse battlemage with, again, no-MCing. By the way, is there a feat that'll allow non-melee classes like wizards able to wield martial weapons?




Well, there is the Martial Weapon Profiency feat. Okay, by RAW, it gives you access to only one martial weapon. But feel free to house rule that... 



> Major and minor? Is that similar to D20 Future where you get two feats -- or something like them -- for one?



The [HEROIC CLASS] Plus feats grant 2 talents, indeed. The feat appears to be assuming that talents are weaker than feats, but I am not sure I agree. 

But the idea is more like skill tricks. (Complete Scoundrel, IIRC). Skill Tricks are neat abilities that don't really come up often. (though some are inherently designed so they can't come up often). A feat for 2 skill tricks seems fine (especially since each trick costs 2 skill points, and there is a feat that grants 5 skill points on taking it, and other feats give +2 to two skills at once...)


----------



## joela

*skill tricks*



			
				Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> But the idea is more like skill tricks. (Complete Scoundrel, IIRC). Skill Tricks are neat abilities that don't really come up often. (though some are inherently designed so they can't come up often). A feat for 2 skill tricks seems fine (especially since each trick costs 2 skill points, and there is a feat that grants 5 skill points on taking it, and other feats give +2 to two skills at once...)




I had forgotten about them. Thanks! I was trying to figure out ways to utilize skills more with E6 Feats and that may be the ticket.


----------



## Hrothgar Rannúlfr

*The Warcanist*

I'm working on a new base class for 3.5 d20 that I'd like to suggest for E6 games.  I've also included some feats that you might find useful in E6.

Have a look at:
*The Warcanist*​


----------



## joela

*class differentiation at e9*

_"Q: Why 6th level for the cap? Why not 12th, or 20th?
A: My experience in D&D is that at around 6th level the characters are really nicely balanced, both in terms of balance against other classes, and against the CR system. Also, there was an element of setting assumptions; each class is strong enough that they're well defined in their role, but not so strong that lower-level characters don't matter to them any more."_

Does that "balance" and "setting assumption" still hold at E9? Or do spellcasters overwhelm the other classes?


----------



## Kunimatyu

joela said:
			
		

> Does that "balance" and "setting assumption" still hold at E9? Or do spellcasters overwhelm the other classes?




Improved Invisibility, Solid Fog, Wall of Force, Teleport, Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Evard's Black Tentacles, Control Water, Control Winds -- all of these significantly enhance the power of spellcasters at these levels, and non-casters get few enhancements themselves.

So, yes, they overwhelm - though if you're willing to accept the tilt in favor of casters, it could still be a fun way to play.


----------



## Ry

Also there's the "spread to zero" issue:  A 9th level fighter can kill off obnoxiously large numbers of 1st-level warriors.  I mean, if you could kill 20 men armed with lethal weapons in a straight-up fight on your own and probably go on to do it again in the next room, you're stretching the bounds of heroic fantasy IMO.


----------



## Grimstaff

joela said:
			
		

> Does that "balance" and "setting assumption" still hold at E9? Or do spellcasters overwhelm the other classes?



Looking at the class charts for 9th level, its actually a very nice capping point all around. All the classes get one final saving throw increase. Bards, Rangers, and Druids have gotten all their most important class abilities. Fighters have a nice boost to their iterative attacks and are at least two feats into the advanced (8th level minimum) fighter stuff like Imp. Crit. Sorcerer gets a precious extra spell known at 2,3,and 4th levels. All in all, its a very happy place, except maybe for Barbarians and Monks, who cap out of the important stuff at 8th (a good reason to take that cool multiclass level you've wanted). Paladins, of course, blow their important stuff by 6th. But for the overwhelming majority of classes (most importantly the "core four") this is a very sweet spot to hit. Edit:Oh yeah, Rogues hit the big 5d6 for sneak attacks, too!
And for the grognards, their is the charm of reaching ye'auld "name level".  

I don't see spellcasters stealing any thunder here, especially if the dm is selective about what 5th level spells he allows into the campaign.


----------



## Grimstaff

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Improved Invisibility, Solid Fog, Wall of Force, Teleport, Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Evard's Black Tentacles, Control Water, Control Winds -- all of these significantly enhance the power of spellcasters at these levels, and non-casters get few enhancements themselves.
> 
> So, yes, they overwhelm - though if you're willing to accept the tilt in favor of casters, it could still be a fun way to play.



I don't know, I think if you playtest a 9th lvl wiz vs. a 9th level fighter, there won't be much contest, even with 3 rounds of "prep time". Same with a 9th lvl rogue vs. 9th lvl cleric. 

ymmv, of course...


----------



## Grimstaff

rycanada said:
			
		

> Also there's the "spread to zero" issue:  A 9th level fighter can kill off obnoxiously large numbers of 1st-level warriors.  I mean, if you could kill 20 men armed with lethal weapons in a straight-up fight on your own and probably go on to do it again in the next room, you're stretching the bounds of heroic fantasy IMO.



Just playing devils advocate, but if you play them intelligently, those 20 1st levels shouldn't have that much trouble with the 9th lvl fighter. Flank, Aid, Disarm, Sunder, Grapple, Full defensive, and ranged attacks, not to mention stuff like nets, poisoned arrows, tanglefoot bags, and a couple of 1st lvl spellslingers off to one side with rays of enfeeblement and dooms going off, the poor 9th level is going to have a hard time escaping, much less conquering.
Just saying...


----------



## Kunimatyu

Grimstaff said:
			
		

> I don't know, I think if you playtest a 9th lvl wiz vs. a 9th level fighter, there won't be much contest, even with 3 rounds of "prep time". Same with a 9th lvl rogue vs. 9th lvl cleric.
> 
> ymmv, of course...




Head to head combat isn't how you determine class balance -- effectiveness and options available while fighting in a party is. 

That being said, the wizard has a number of options available - like Improved Invis and Wall of Force - that the fighter simply cannot counter. The fights you describe tend to be very one-sided, especially if a few rounds of buffs come into play.


----------



## Imp

While I'm not 100% convinced I should back off from E8 (I can at least devise counters to Improved Invis.: a feat or two working off Blind-Fight to help pinpoint invisibles and possibly a little alchemical sack-of-flour-in-a-vial should cover _that_ spell, which will only last 8 rounds tops; Solid Fog is stickier)...

9th has Commune, Raise Dead, Slay Living, True Seeing, Contact Other Plane, Teleport, Overland Flight, Permanency, etc., etc., and you really may as well let in the whole 20 levels at that point, IMO.

What I am wondering currently is if E6 could benefit from a much simpler _dispel magic_ mechanic, since caster levels, esp. of those who can cast the spell, hardly diverge at all.  That is, under E6 I'm tempted to make the spell just automatically work.


----------



## Kunimatyu

Imp said:
			
		

> While I'm not 100% convinced I should back off from E8 (I can at least devise counters to Improved Invis.: a feat or two working off Blind-Fight to help pinpoint invisibles and possibly a little alchemical sack-of-flour-in-a-vial should cover _that_ spell, which will only last 8 rounds tops; Solid Fog is stickier)...
> 
> 9th has Commune, Raise Dead, Slay Living, True Seeing, Contact Other Plane, Teleport, Overland Flight, Permanency, etc., etc., and you really may as well let in the whole 20 levels at that point, IMO.
> 
> What I am wondering currently is if E6 could benefit from a much simpler _dispel magic_ mechanic, since caster levels, esp. of those who can cast the spell, hardly diverge at all.  That is, under E6 I'm tempted to make the spell just automatically work.




(this is off the top of my head, and has not been playtested)

Limit its ability to dispel in a radius, and just have it dispel one magical effect of your choice on a target. Counterspelling becomes an opposed caster level check. Done.


----------



## joela

*e9*

thanks for everyone's response. after i posted the question, i started going over my 10th level arcane casters for the weekly campaign and realized that, yeah, the game is different once teleport, evard's tentacles, etc. come into the fray. 

as i discussed with one of my dm's last night after our party fought similarly powered foes: we're far more like supes in fantasy drag than heroic but mortal folks from LoTR. combat is buffing with false life, bull strength, bless, mass conviction, mage armor, greater, shield, etc., followed by teleporting to the bad guys location, then using fly, mass. combat which  then expands with summon monsters v, darkness spells, evards tentacles, and harm causing up to 120 points of damage. 

by the way, is it me, but is it easier to forget all the special abilities of npcs while in combat? both my dm and in my own OA game last saturday kept forgetting all the feats and spells  or sometimes even the opponent while trying to engage in fast-moving combat.


----------



## Quasqueton

In response to all this talk of 8th, 9th, or higher levels for a cut off. . .

Keep in mind that the issue is not whether an Xth-level character can deal with another Xth-level character, but whether the world of NPCs can deal with the Xth-level character.

At 8th, 9th, and higher levels, your base city guard are speed bumps at best. A squad come to arrest the PCs is laughable. But at 6th level, a squad is still a noticable threat. (Though they still probably won't win an engagement, the engagement won't be a cake walk for the PCs).


The biggest benefit that I see with an E6 game, and what is making me think more and more about it, is the world building aspect. "Troll Swamp" will always be a dangerous place. The PCs will never level above that threat. A world doesn't have to have "beginner zones" and "advanced zones". 

Quasqueton


----------



## Hrothgar Rannúlfr

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> The biggest benefit that I see with an E6 game, and what is making me think more and more about it, is the world building aspect. "Troll Swamp" will always be a dangerous place. The PCs will never level above that threat. A world doesn't have to have "beginner zones" and "advanced zones".



That's what I like about it.

Ryan posted the idea of worldbuilding being similar to the design of an amusement park.  The player's can take their characters anywhere and have fun.  A fairly fixed high end level of power (6th level plus feats) means that the Dungeon Master can build as much of the world as he wants and know that setting tough encounters at something that a 6th level (plus feats) group can handle is good and won't have to be adjusted too much because the characters will never show up at 10th level or have access to spells that could destroy the challenge of the area.

I'm still seriously considering running Gestalt E6.


----------



## Ry

Hrothgar Rannúlfr said:
			
		

> I'm still seriously considering running Gestalt E6.




Do it!  Do it!  You know you want to!


----------



## Hrothgar Rannúlfr

I probably will.  Just not sure when I'll start running it.  I'm more likely to do that than to make the full switch to 4th edition.  And, I don't think 4th edition is going to fix the problems that E6 addresses.

I was looking at some villains in _The Shackled City_ and considering what they would look like if they were converted to gestalts.  Overall, they don't look that hard to convert.  I'm getting a little better at the stat blocks.  And, that's the main thing that's been holding me back.

Did you get a look at the Warcanist, Ry?  How about the feats?  Would you allow the feats in E6?


----------



## Kunimatyu

Hrothgar Rannúlfr said:
			
		

> I probably will.  Just not sure when I'll start running it.  I'm more likely to do that than to make the full switch to 4th edition.  And, I don't think 4th edition is going to fix the problems that E6 addresses.
> 
> I was looking at some villains in _The Shackled City_ and considering what they would look like if they were converted to gestalts.  Overall, they don't look that hard to convert.  I'm getting a little better at the stat blocks.  And, that's the main thing that's been holding me back.
> 
> Did you get a look at the Warcanist, Ry?  How about the feats?  Would you allow the feats in E6?




Dude, don't try to convert an adventure path to E6 -- that's way too much work, especially when the paths are already designed for the 1-20 transition, and already designed for you so you don't have any extra workload. Or did I misunderstand you?


----------



## Zelc

Hey wow!  This is sweet!  I saw it today, and I had a bunch of thoughts.

First, have you thought about introducing feats with prerequisites of "X # of feats"?  Not only would this serve as a way to determine when certain feats can be taken, it also rewards feat-based classes (fighters, monks, etc.) because they'll be able to take these earlier.

Second, I love psionics, but there are a couple feats that cause problems.  Namely, these are feats that scale with more feats: Psionic Body and Psionic Talent.  Psionic Body gives you 2 HP per psionic feat you have.  Throw in 20 feats, and that's 40 HP, meaning even the d4 Psion's HP rivals that of a Barbarian's.  Second, Psionic Talent is usually quite awful in a normal campaign.  Feats are limited, and when you're burning 23 power points per cast, another 5 power points isn't going to help much.  On the other hand, in E6 you're burning at most 7, and the feat scales quadratically: the power points you get from taking the feat n times = 1/2*n(n+3).  Take Psionic Talent 20 times, and you get 230 power points, which is almost enough to fuel 33 overchanneled max-PP manifests.

So, Psionic Body should probably be nerfed down to 1 hp per Psionic Feat, and I came up with these feats:

Heroic Toughness
Prerequisites: Con 15, 6 HD

Benefit: You gain 1 hit point for every two feats you have (including this one).  If you have at least 37 hit points from hit dice alone (before Constitution and other bonuses), you instead gain 1 hit point for every feat you have.

Special: This feat overlaps with Psionic Body.  If you have this feat, Psionic Body works normally but Heroic Toughness will not count [Psionic] feats when determining its effects.

(37 HP is the average a 6d10 char gets.  If you don't use average HP, you'll have to find a different metric.)

Psionic Talent [Psionic]
Prerequisite: Having a power point reserve.

Benefit: Treat your ability scores as being 4 points higher for the purposes of determining bonus power points from high ability scores.  (This works out to be 1 power point per manifester level.)

Special: You gain this feat multiple times.  Its effects stack.

(Which led to...)

Magical Talent
Prerequisite: Ability to cast spells.

Benefit: Treat your ability scores as being 4 points higher for the purposes of determining bonus power points from high ability scores.  (You get an extra 1st level spell slot at ability scores 12, 20, 28, 36, etc.  You get an extra 2nd level spell slot at ability scores 14, 22, 30, 38, etc.  You get an extra 3rd level spell slot at ability scores 16, 24, 32, 40, etc.)

Special: You gain this feat multiple times.  Its effects stack.

(I think this is better than Expanded Knowledge.  The spell slots will look more like 10/9/8 than 6/6/20.  And for the paladins and rangers, we have

Magic Training
Prerequisite: Ability to cast 1st level spells.

Benefit: You gain an extra 1st level spell slot.  If you have more than one spellcasting class, you must choose which class gains this feat’s effect.

Special: You gain this feat multiple times.  Its effects stack.



I also recommend against having feats that don't provide an immediate benefit.  Skill Beyond Your Years, for instance, should provide one or two skill points, or some other minor benefit.  It's not fun to have to wait another 5000 XP in order to take advantage of some other feat.

Also on the thought of skill points:

Trait
Benefit: Choose two skills that are thematically linked.  You get a +2 trait bonus to those two skills.  Trait bonuses do not stack.

Special: All feats that grant +2 bonuses to two skills, like Alertness or Negotiator, provide trait bonuses instead.  You may gain this feat multiple times.  Each time you take this feat, you may choose different skills.

(Eliminates crazy stacking)


Finally, E6 might make it easier to balance classes.  I'm thinking the Monk and possibly the Soulknife should have full BAB progression.  Additionally, there is another interesting side effect for melee balance: considering the soft cap of +2 bonuses to weapons due to caster level, two-weapon fighting might actually equal two-handed fighting in effectiveness.  Of course, two-weapon fighting will cost more...

I'll try running an analysis on Monk and Soulknife full BAB progression later.


----------



## Kunimatyu

Glad you're psyched about E6, Zelc!

One thing to keep in mind with E6 is that while individual DMs can retool classes/spells/etc, we're trying to keep the basic E6 rules limited to optional bonus feats.

I think you're correct that the two psionic feats need limitations -- 1hp per psi feat sounds about right, and a feat that grants +6 power points (ie, roughly equivalent to a 3rd level spell) would work instead of a quadratic scaler. I think the ability score bonus enhancers are a neat idea, but a little clunky in play, though I agree with you that Expanded Knowledge should have some way to stop the 6/6/20 phenomenon.

I think the Trait idea is probably unnecessary, but a feat that grants +2 to two skills that doesn't stack with the existing +2/+2 feats is fine, I'm sure.  Remember, Skill Beyond Your Years is for characters really pushing the skill limits, so a 2 feats-1 payoff is not unreasonable considered the ability training feats, for example.

I'd probably give soulknives full BAB in my games, but it's not the sort of houserule you'd see in the E6 main document. With regards to the Monk, note that we do have a feat that eliminates flurry penalties, so their +4 BAB isn't as big of a deal.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

The idea for the Psionic Feats seems good idea. The feats to get more power points is based on the assumptions that power levels increase with the amount of feats you get, but that assumption is no longer true in E6.

For hitpoints, I consider adding a "Epic Toughness" feat that grants +6 hit points per taking and requires Toughness and Improved Toughness (and level 6+, of course). Though I am not entirely certain that this is required and might not turn into a problem after a few "epic levels"... 

I suggest not increasing skill modifiers much higher. I think one of the benefits of halting at level 6 is that modifiers to checks top out, too. This is especially important for skill checks that multiple characters have to take in a specific situation (Hide, opposed checks) - you don't get into situations were it will be impossible for one character to beat a DC while it is a an automatic for another. Basically it's the same reason why Starwars Saga Edition uses the level based skill modifiers - keep everything within the range of a d20 roll. 

Instead of adding more skill ranks and cramping up higher modifiers, add reroll abilities (higher chance to succeed without meaning you can achieve even "_more_"). 

Core Epic skill challenges should probably not be achievable to E6 characters. 

I think the same can be applied to attacks and saves. Epic Reflexes could allow you to reroll your result if you're unhappy. Epic Weapon Focus could allow one reroll per round with an attack and so on...

I am not sure yet if I will get to use E6, but if, these are definitely feats I will consider.


----------



## Zelc

The problem with the extra pp/spell slot feats is that I don't know of a better way to word them.  In effect, the psionic one is "Gain 1 power point per manifester level", but if I just write that, it will be confusing.  Does it update when I gain more manifester levels or not?  Similarly, there's two possibilities for the spell one based on what score they start with.  Either they gain a level 1 spell slot every other time and a level 2 and level 3 spell slot every other time (the less desirable option), or they gain a level 1 and level 2 spell slot every other time and a level 3 spell slot every other time (the more desirable option).  Wording that straight up, though, would be a pain in the butt .

The trait bonuses might be a good idea... not sure though.  I'm just worried someone will stack up a ton of +2 bonuses to a skill using the +2/+2 feats.  Rerolls are certainly an interesting approach.

Oh yea, another thing.  Some people in CharOp found that LA creatures are too good.  I suggest removing the 4 LA option (Pixies make absolutely fantastic Rogues with permanent Greater Invisibility and SR 21), and perhaps further reducing the points on the LA 2 by 2 and LA 3 by 4.

The thing about rebalancing Monks and Soulknives is it's really easy to compare them to other melees since you only have 6 levels to worry about.  It should be done core only (for many reasons), so the options are restricted as well.  It shouldn't be too tough.


----------



## Ry

Those Warcanist feats look good to me, although I might require one more feat for the Improved Combat Casting one though, i.e. "One of Combat Expertise or Improved Grapple" 

I'm admittedly not that skilled at creating / evaluating class balance.


----------



## Hrothgar Rannúlfr

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Dude, don't try to convert an adventure path to E6 -- that's way too much work, especially when the paths are already designed for the 1-20 transition, and already designed for you so you don't have any extra workload. Or did I misunderstand you?



No... I'm not going to try and convert _The Shackled City_ to E6.

I was mainly looking at some of the villains to see what they would and could look like as Gestalts.  Especially some of the low level villains that would work in E6.  There's one that wouldn't even be 6th level and would still be quite powerful.  And, that being the case, GE6 has a lot of different variations for villains that don't require every major villain to be 6th+feats.


----------



## Hrothgar Rannúlfr

rycanada said:
			
		

> Those Warcanist feats look good to me, although I might require one more feat for the Improved Combat Casting one though, i.e. "One of Combat Expertise or Improved Grapple"
> 
> I'm admittedly not that skilled at creating / evaluating class balance.



Thanks.  I hadn't considered those as potential additional requirements for Improved Combat Casting.  Either one sounds good, though.  Even Improved Unarmed Strike sounds good, now, too, for a pre-requisite.


----------



## Zelc

So, I crunched the numbers (you can see it in the Excel attachment).

End result: Fighters have the best damage, with TWF Fighters and TWF Rangers edging him out at low ACs (even a +2 Favored Enemy makes TWF Rangers beat out THF Fighters at the lower half of ACs, but that's situational).  Giving Monks and Soulknives (with a larger list of mindblade enhancements and access to the +2 mindblade) full BAB progression doesn't make them anywhere close to being too powerful.  They're not even close to a THF fighter's damage output.  Since they have more-or-less melee roles in E6 and they can't wait for bonuses at higher levels to compensate, it's probably a good idea to houserule them to have full BAB progression in E6.

Note: I did not take Power Attack into account.  If I did, THF Fighters would probably be even more ahead.

Thoughts: Since even with the no-penalty flurry, Monks come out pretty far behind Fighters, E6 should probably emphasize their role as Skirmishers.  So, they should probably get some form of pounce ability with a feat.


----------



## Hrothgar Rannúlfr

*E6 Vampires and +8 Level Adjustments*

Do true Vampires exist in an E6 game?  Or, should another template be used to simulate the vapiric traits?


----------



## Imp

Yeah, I was playing with building an E6+20 greatsword fighter – barbarian 2/ fighter 4 seemed most advantageous – and it gets pretty mean.

It's not even like there's very many THF feats out there, but the ones that are there sure work.

I am not at all sure 1st-level mooks are going to present any kind of threat to this guy and he's 28 point buy and can't possibly be totally optimized.

I think the Epic Toughness feat is not a good idea; just going straight Improved Toughness + Ability Boost (Con) + Ability Advancement (Con)* + Toughness x 17 for an E6+20 is going to net you 63 extra hp, basically, double a front-liner's hp, which honestly doesn't look too unpersuasive.  But making that 114 extra hp?  Yipes.

*may as well get a +1 to Fort saves while we're at it


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Hrothgar Rannúlfr said:
			
		

> Do true Vampires exist in an E6 game?  Or, should another template be used to simulate the vapiric traits?



Do you think you'll need True Vampires for PCs? Otherwise, only the CR modifier is important, and I think that one is okay. The Level Drain and Blood Drain abilities are pretty nasty in E6:
Against Level Drain, all characters have only 6 levels to "protect" themselves against it, and I think there aren't many spells available to them that can reduce the dangers or heal the drain. 

I would definitely recommend that you don't make negative levels permanent in the way you do in D&D 3.x - reducing the characters actual level below 6 would mean they lose all extra epic feats, which is certainly to harsh. Just put in a "level drain buyoff" (5000 XP for each negative level, just as for feats, and you must pay before you get something else for your XP)

More interesting might be the question whether you want to keep _Lich_s, since they normally require caster level 11 or so...


----------



## Hrothgar Rannúlfr

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Hrothgar Rannúlfr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do true Vampires exist in an E6 game? Or, should another template be used to simulate the vapiric traits?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think you'll need True Vampires for PCs? Otherwise, only the CR modifier is important, and I think that one is okay.
Click to expand...


I hope I never need a True Vampire as an option for PC's.  To me, Vampires are monsters and they should stay that way.  I was just wondering about the best way to build an E6 legal vampire and the Level Adjustment stuck out at me as making True Vampires non-existant.







			
				Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> The Level Drain and Blood Drain abilities are pretty nasty in E6:
> Against Level Drain, all characters have only 6 levels to "protect" themselves against it, and I think there aren't many spells available to them that can reduce the dangers or heal the drain.
> 
> I would definitely recommend that you don't make negative levels permanent in the way you do in D&D 3.x - reducing the characters actual level below 6 would mean they lose all extra epic feats, which is certainly to harsh. Just put in a "level drain buyoff" (5000 XP for each negative level, just as for feats, and you must pay before you get something else for your XP)



Interesting thoughts about the effect of level drains on the feats beyond sixth.  I don't think that's been addressed, yet for E6.  I wonder if Ryan's got any thoughts on this?

I'm thinking just an XP deficit that must be paid before gaining another feat would be a start.  I don't really like level drains, anyway.  Especially, in 3.5 where it can mean re-writing an entire character sheet.







			
				Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> More interesting might be the question whether you want to keep _Lich_s, since they normally require caster level 11 or so...



In previous threads, Ryan has suggested using the Bone Template on a wizard with lots of bonus feats to make a viable (and legal) E6 lich.  That idea really works, for me.


----------



## Zelc

SRD-only PrCs that can be taken:
Assassin (flavor could be changed to allow for good assassins)
Horizon Walker
Elocater
Metamind
Psion Uncarnate
Pyrokineticist
Slayer
Thrallherd
Warmind


PrCs that can work with reduced requirements:

Arcane Archer (reduce BAB requirement to +3)
- Gets Enhance Arrows +1 and Imbue Arrows (with feats, Enhance Arrows +2 and maybe Seeker Arrows)
- Should get +1 level in arcane spellcasting class per level.  Otherwise, reduce BAB requirement to +2, and increase spellcasting requirement to 2nd level spells.

Arcane Trickster (reduce arcane spells requirement to level 1 spells, reduce skill requirement to 6)
- Ranged Legerdemain, Sneak Attack +1d6 (possibly Impromptu Sneak Attack with feat)

Dragon Disciple (why bother?)

Duelist (reduce BAB requirement to +4)
- Canny Defense +2, Improved Reaction +2

Dwarven Defender (reduce BAB requirement to +5 or +4)
- Defensive Stance 1/day, maybe Uncanny Dodge (more Defensive Stance with feats)

Shadowdancer (reduce Hide requirements to 8, remove Combat Reflexes requirement)
- Hide in Plain Sight (in shadows)


----------



## Kunimatyu

The route that's been taken so far, Zelc, is to convert key class abilities into feats. I believe you'll find feats for Blackguards and Assassins a few pages back.


----------



## Zelc

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> The route that's been taken so far, Zelc, is to convert key class abilities into feats. I believe you'll find feats for Blackguards and Assassins a few pages back.



Hmm, I guess that's a thought.  It'll make it tougher to restrict those feats though.  So someone might end up with both Blackguard and Assassin abilities.  Maybe that's what you want to have though.


----------



## joela

*undead*



			
				Hrothgar Rannúlfr said:
			
		

> I hope I never need a True Vampire as an option for PC's.  To me, Vampires are monsters and they should stay that way.
> 
> snip




Same here. 



			
				Hrothgar Rannúlfr said:
			
		

> I was just wondering about the best way to build an E6 legal vampire....
> 
> snip
> 
> I'm thinking just an XP deficit that must be paid before gaining another feat would be a start.  I don't really like level drains, anyway.




Since vampires are monsters, I'd view them as such and just scale their abilities to the appropriate CR. I'd look into deals with high-level evil creatures and/or incantations if the PCs were, for whatever, interested in such beasts. 



			
				Hrothgar Rannúlfr said:
			
		

> Especially, in 3.5 where it can mean re-writing an entire character sheet.In previous threads, Ryan has suggested using the Bone Template on a wizard with lots of bonus feats to make a viable (and legal) E6 lich.  That idea really works, for me.




I've seen such recommendations in the past where PCs have to pay off "negative xps" before they start leveling again. That could easily work with E6: a vampire-bitten PC with 15000 of negative xps from a vampire would be 3 feats behind the rest of the party before they could start accruing xps again. 

As for lich, I'd either have the NPC make a deal with a high-level devil/demon and use incantation to make the change. This could easily lead to an adventure where the PCs are desperately racing to either prevent the creation of the lich or find some way to reduce its power. (Maybe through another incantation? A deal with good powers? Or temporary feats like a non-permanent Exalted feat to bring the smackdown to the lich on equal levels?)


----------



## Kunimatyu

Zelc said:
			
		

> Hmm, I guess that's a thought.  It'll make it tougher to restrict those feats though.  So someone might end up with both Blackguard and Assassin abilities.  Maybe that's what you want to have though.




The way they exist in the previous message, you can only take one "prestige feat", and all the other abilities for a given PrC tree off of that initial prestige feat.

There hasn't been a unified way that Ryan's approached PrCs, though - it's really up to the DMs on whether or not they want to have PrCs at all. Me, I think I'll probably just ban them across the board, and let players lobby for unique PrC abilities to be turned into feats if they really want them.


----------



## joela

*Making the PC work for those feats*



			
				Zelc said:
			
		

> Hmm, I guess that's a thought.  It'll make it tougher to restrict those feats though.  So someone might end up with both Blackguard and Assassin abilities.  Maybe that's what you want to have though.




One option I'm seriously considering for a possible Eberron campaign is the elimination of PrC. Instead, there are Prestige Feats where entry is done using the Feat Test  rules in UA.


----------



## shdwrnr

Zelc said:
			
		

> So, I crunched the numbers (you can see it in the Excel attachment).
> 
> get some form of pounce ability with a feat.




I liked your spreadsheet, Zelc, though capping at 6th level makes the flaming enhancement impossible according to core rules. Does that affect the balance you had concluded?


----------



## AbuDhabi

Myself and a couple of friends did a bit of rewording/clarification/clean-up on the E6 feats. If anyone's interested, here they are:
[sblock=Feats][sblock=For Ability Advancement]Ability Training [General]
You spend time honing one of your Abilities: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma.
Benefit: Choose one Ability; treat that Ability as having a +2 bonus to that Ability Score whenever you are making an Ability Check. This bonus does not count when making a skill check or for any other use of that ability.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat it applies to another ability.

Ability Advancement [General]
Your training pays off, and one of your Abilities increases.
Prerequisite: Ability Training in the same ability.
Benefit: Choose one Ability. You gain a permanent +2 bonus to that ability. This bonus does nto stack with the benefit from Ability Training.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat it applies to another ability.[/sblock]

[sblock=Capstone Feats]Martial Veteran [General] (comrade_raoul)
Prerequisites: Fighter level 6th.
Benefit: You may select feats with a requirement of up to fighter level 8, and with a Base Attack Bonus requirement of up to +8.
Special: A fighter may select Martial Veteran as one of his bonus feats.

Roguish Ability [General]
Prerequisite: Rogue level 6th.
Benefit: You learn one rogue special ability.
Special: This feat may be taken only once.

Barbaric Resilience [General]
Prerequisite: Barbarian level 6th.
Benefit: You gain DR 1/-.

Skill Beyond Your Years [General]
Prerequisite: Character level 6th.
Benefit: Pick a skill. Your maximum rank in that skill rises by 2.
Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time, it applies to a different skill.

Holy Strikes [General]
Prerequisite: Paladin level 6th.
Benefit: Your melee attacks are considered good for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Mighty Wild Shape [General]
Prerequisite: Druid level 6th.
Benefit: Choose a Large animal. You can wildshape into that animal.
Special: This feat may be taken only once.

Bardic Inspiration [General]
Prerequisite: Bard level 6th.
Benefit: The bonus granted by your inspire courage class feature increases to +2.

Extra Domain Power [General] (Shazman)
Prerequisites: Wis 17, Knowledge (religion) 9 ranks, Skill Focus: Knowledge (religion), Cleric level 6th.
Benefit: You gain the domain power of one additional domain associated with your deity or spiritual inclinations.
Special: You may only take this feat once.

Extra Domain Access [General] (Shazman)
Prerequisities: Wis 17, Knowledge (religion) 9 ranks, Skill Focus: Knowledge (religion), Extra Domain Power, Cleric level 6th.
Benefit: You gain access to the domain spell list of one additional domain assciated with your deity or spiritual inclinations. This domain must be the same one as that chosen for the Extra Domain Power feat.
Special: You may only take this feat once.

Restoration [General]
Prerequisites: Wis 17, ability to cast 3rd-level divine spells, Heal 9 ranks, Character level 6th.
Benefit: You can use Restoration, as the spell, but the casting time is 1 hour. You must provide the material component. You may use this ability any number of times per day.

Swift Metamagic [Metamagic] (Kunimatyu)
Prerequisite: Metamagic feats (see text), Caster level 6th.
Benefit: Pick a metamagic feat with an adjustment to the spell's level equal or less to the number of Swift Metamagic feats you already possess plus 1. You may apply this feat to a spell with no adjustment to the spell's level, as a swift action, once per day.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time, it applies to a new metamagic feat.

Caster Training [General] (Khuxan)
You become a more accomplished spellcaster.
Requirements: Caster level 1st, character level 6th.
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class in which you have levels. Your caster level increases by 4, to a maximum of 6, for all purposes in that class. This increase does not raise your effective level in the spellcasting class, just your caster level.
Special: This feat may be taken more than once. Each time, it applies to a different spellcasting class.

Expanded Knowledge [General] (PoeticJustice)
Prerequisite: Character level 6th.
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class in which you have levels. You gain an additional spell known at any level you can cast from that class' spell list.
Special: This feat may be taken more than once.

Expanded Casting [General] (PoeticJustice)
Prerequisite: Character Level 6th.
Benefit: Choose a spellcasting class in which you have levels. You gain an additional spell slot at any level you can already cast.
Special: This feat may be taken more than once.

Stone to Flesh [General]
Prerequisites: Int 17, Craft (Alchemy) 9 Ranks, ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells, character level 6th.
Benefit: You can use stone to flesh, as the spell, but with an expensive and secret magical ingredient with a market value of 1000 gp and a casting time of 1 day.

Excelling Flurry [General]
Prereq: Monk level 6th.
Benefit: You use Flurry of Blows with no penalty to your attack bonus. In addition, you qualify for feats that a Monk may take as 6th level bonus feats.

Step of the Wild Lands [General]
Prereq: Ranger level 6th.
Benefit: You gain the Woodland Stride and Swift Tracking abilities, as the ranger class features.

Wondrous Rings [General]
Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, character level 6th, caster level 6th.
Benefit: For the purpose of meeting item creation prerequisites, you are treated as having Forge Ring, as if rings were wondrous items. You must still meet caster level requirements for any ring you create.[/sblock]

[sblock=For Villains]
Mental Domination [General] (Lord Tirian)
You're able to subjugate certain people's mind.
Prerequisite: Having charmed humanoid with HD equal or less than your caster level.
Benefit: Choose a humanoid with HD equal your caster level or less, you have currently charmed. Treat charm person as dominate person against this person.
Special: This feat can be taken several times. It applies to a different humanoid each time. 
[/sblock][/sblock]


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Hrothgar Rannúlfr said:
			
		

> I hope I never need a True Vampire as an option for PC's.  To me, Vampires are monsters and they should stay that way.  I was just wondering about the best way to build an E6 legal vampire and the Level Adjustment stuck out at me as making True Vampires non-existant.Interesting thoughts about the effect of level drains on the feats beyond sixth.  I don't think that's been addressed, yet for E6.  I wonder if Ryan's got any thoughts on this?




I don't think E6 forbids monsters with a CR above 6, just monsters with class levels higher than 6. So a NPC Vampire Fighter6 would have CR 8 (If I remember the CR modifier correctly), and two of these Vampires would make a challenging encounter for a 6th level E6 character.

If you want the Vampire to have a higher CR, that might be more difficult. You'd need a humanoid race with a higher base CR than player races. But I don't think that's really necessary. If you give the Vampire more hit points (thanks to feats gained after level 6), he should come off pretty dangerous, simply because it takes forever to take him down (Which is a pretty critical benefit if the Vampires keeps his Energy Drain ability)

(I just have to think of Buffy the Vampire Slayer - every Vampire automatically is a Martial Artist that can strike her and can throws her around, but only the _really_ important Vampires survive longer than a few "rounds". They probably all have a similar attack bonus but the important ones got more hit points)


----------



## Kunimatyu

AbuDhabi said:
			
		

> Myself and a couple of friends did a bit of rewording/clarification/clean-up on the E6 feats. If anyone's interested, here they are:




Just as a heads up, feats don't need a designator that they can only be taken once - that's assumed. Feats that can be taken multiple times are rare.


----------



## Cheiromancer

AbuDhabi said:
			
		

> Myself and a couple of friends did a bit of rewording/clarification/clean-up on the E6 feats. If anyone's interested, here they are:




I have to disagree with you where you reduce the ability score prerequisites from 18 to 17.  Although it is a convention to do so in standard D&D, in standard D&D you also get a bonus spell at even ability scores.  In E6 you can't get a bonus 4th level spell with an 18 Intelligence; there are no 4th level spell slots to get the bonus in.  The feats with an 18 prerequisite are intended to compensate for this lack.


----------



## Zelc

shdwrnr said:
			
		

> I liked your spreadsheet, Zelc, though capping at 6th level makes the flaming enhancement impossible according to core rules.



Interesting, you're right.  In fact, there are VERY FEW +1 weapon enhancements that can be crafted in E6.  Should we reduce the CL/ML of +1 enhancements to 6?  It just doesn't seem like fantasy if we can't craft a flaming sword .  They should be rare, but not uber-rare like a +2 enhancement item.  Someone already put up a list of the magical ones, let me add the psionic ones:

Weapons:
Sundering: ML 5, +1 cost
Teleporting: ML 5, +1 cost

Armor/Shields:
Quickness: ML 4, +1 cost
Landing: ML 4, 4000 gp
Floating: ML 4, 4000 gp
Linked: ML 6, 6000 gp
Seeing: ML 5, 6000 gp
Heartening: ML 4, 720 gp
Ranged: ML 5, +1 cost

There are some others that have a low ML, but all of them cost more than 10k gold.

I'll do the Universal Items thing later.



> Does that affect the balance you had concluded?



I redid the spreadsheet.  The THF Fighter really cements its damage lead, and the TWF Ranger now is worse (although not by that much) even with a +2 favored enemy bonus.  Monks become much worse; EVEN WITH FULL BAB PROGRESSION AND NO PENALTY FLURRY, they're expected to do anywhere from 8.5 (AC 15) to 2.1 (AC 28 and above) less damage per full attack than a THF fighter (-5.53 versus AC 22).  That's with a +2 Kama; with fists, it'll be even worse.  

Oh yea, don't TWF with a Soulknife and expect to get much done.  It's a trap!  Maybe if you're allowed to put Psychic Strike on both weapons, then it MIGHT be worth it.

With this in mind, we might want to give each melee class its niche in E6, then encourage that with the use of capstone/superlative (see below) feats.

Fighters deal good damage.

Barbarians are tough and have DR (I think a superlative feat with the prerequisite of that DR 1/- feat that increases any DR they have, including from armor or some other source, by 1 point would be good).

Rangers can track and move through the wilds easily, and they get an animal companion (superlative feat that buffs their animal companion, maybe?).

Paladins out-damage everyone when they can smite.

Monks should emphasize their mobility; a feat that gives them Pounce is a thought.

Psychic Warriors have psionic powers and make the best grapplers.

Soulknives have the alpha strike of doom: a charging bastard sword mindblade with Psychic Strike, Power Attack, Greater Psionic Weapon, and Deep Impact fueled by Psicrystal Containment is a good way to lead off combat (around 49 average damage depending on strength mod).  Granted, any fighter can pick up Greater Psionic Weapon with an extra feat for Wild Talent, but they don't get some of the other perks like the Psychic Strike or Deep Impact on the same attack.

*[Superlative] Feats:*
Going along the idea of "feats with prerequisites of # of feats", I thought of a new descriptor.  Basically, all [Superlative] feats would start with a prerequisite of at least 15 feats.  They all have "Special: You may only have one [Superlative] feat for every 15 feats you have."  So the idea is, even though eventually people will have tons of regular feats, they will still only have a few [Superlative] feats, and we can make [Superlative] feats a little better since there is a throttling mechanism for them.


----------



## Ry

You guys are fantastic; I'm loving all this work on E6 and related stuff, because I think people will really click with this.  My weekly game is on hiatus, so it's really great to see people getting other games together that see how E6 puts the whole game together.


----------



## Kunimatyu

Zelc said:
			
		

> Interesting, you're right.  In fact, there are VERY FEW +1 weapon enhancements that can be crafted in E6.




Only in core/RAW -- the magic item compendium has a ton of +1 equivalencies at or below CL6.


----------



## Zelc

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Only in core/RAW -- the magic item compendium has a ton of +1 equivalencies at or below CL6.



Yea, though we should balance the game for core; not everyone has the MIC.  Besides, no flaming swords!!!  That's so... un-D&D .

EDIT: Oh yea.  I crunched the numbers for a TWF Flurry Monk, and they were much better.  Around the middle AC ranges, he was only doing around 3 less damage than a fighter.  Still, that's a Monk with Dex 18 that burned 3 feats (TWF, Greater TWF, Weapon Finesse) for the damage...


----------



## Kunimatyu

Zelc said:
			
		

> Yea, though we should balance the game for core; not everyone has the MIC.  Besides, no flaming swords!!!  That's so... un-D&D .




::shrug::

I don't want to sound like a broken record at this point, but the MIC has elemental crystals that deal up to +1d6 damage at E6 caster level ranges... 

I don't think it's vitally important that core has a huge diversity of options available beyond the base classes and the ability to get them on a relatively equal footing -- after all, that's what splatbooks are for, to give more options. As long as the basic framework is in place with a minimal number of rules tweaks (usually in the form of optional feats), I'm sure DMs will customize it to suit their needs.

(Oh, and Zelc, make sure to include in your analysis the fact that a Monk with Improved Natural Weapon will be doing 2d6 damage with two attacks at BAB +4 - essentially, he's TWFing with greatswords, which isn't bad considering the number of other toys Monk gets.)

I'll be posting my basic campaign document for my Dictionary of Mu-inspired game later today -- I'd love some feedback, especially on how well people think that players will be able to grasp the flavor of the setting.


----------



## Zelc

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> (Oh, and Zelc, make sure to include in your analysis the fact that a Monk with Improved Natural Weapon will be doing 2d6 damage with two attacks at BAB +4 - essentially, he's TWFing with greatswords, which isn't bad considering the number of other toys Monk gets.)



If a Monk gets full BAB progression (they should in E6), TWF, Improved TWF, Weapon Finesse, Improved Natural Attack, No Penalty Flurry with TWF, an Amulet of Mighty Fists, and he uses his unarmed attack as both his primary and secondary weapon, then he's actually about equal in damage output compared to a THF Fighter.  If you're really worried about that case, then just say Flurry can't be used with TWF, and his expected damage output drops to about 4 less per round than a THF Fighter.  That doesn't sound like much, but it's 20% less than a THF Fighter's expected damage output, which is HUGE.  (I actually didn't realize Improved Natural Attack skipped d10; a normal Flurry with unarmed attacks will also be about 4 less damage than a Fighter).

What does a Monk get?  They get 3 bonus feats.  They get good saves.  They get some OK healing, and slow fall (meh).  They get improved speed, but flurry requires a full attack.  They have 1 less HP per level than a fighter, plus they have MAD so they'll probably have a lower Con score.  Their AC will be lower (the exception is if they get Mage Armor, although that takes up a spell slot and not every party will have it available).  Hmm.  Maybe it is pretty even.

Of course, don't read that and go "Hmm, then they don't really need full BAB progression".  Their primary role is still beating stuff up in melee, and they really can't do that if they don't have full BAB.  Their expected damage output becomes something just awful.



> I don't want to sound like a broken record at this point, but the MIC has elemental crystals that deal up to +1d6 damage at E6 caster level ranges...
> 
> I don't think it's vitally important that core has a huge diversity of options available beyond the base classes and the ability to get them on a relatively equal footing -- after all, that's what splatbooks are for, to give more options. As long as the basic framework is in place with a minimal number of rules tweaks (usually in the form of optional feats), I'm sure DMs will customize it to suit their needs.



Yea, but again, not everyone has MIC .  We should make sure the game works if they run it straight up core-only without any/many houserules, and core-only E6 would be more fun with flaming swords .


----------



## Kunimatyu

Zelc said:
			
		

> If a Monk gets full BAB progression (they should in E6), TWF, Improved TWF, Weapon Finesse, Improved Natural Attack, No Penalty Flurry with TWF, an Amulet of Mighty Fists, and he uses his unarmed attack as both his primary and secondary weapon, then he's actually about equal in damage output compared to a THF Fighter.  If you're really worried about that case, then just say Flurry can't be used with TWF, and his expected damage output drops to about 4 less per round than a THF Fighter.  That doesn't sound like much, but it's 20% less than a THF Fighter's expected damage output, which is HUGE.  (I actually didn't realize Improved Natural Attack skipped d10; a normal Flurry with unarmed attacks will also be about 4 less damage than a Fighter).
> 
> What does a Monk get?  They get 3 bonus feats.  They get good saves.  They get some OK healing, and slow fall (meh).  They get improved speed, but flurry requires a full attack.  They have 1 less HP per level than a fighter, plus they have MAD so they'll probably have a lower Con score.  Their AC will be lower (the exception is if they get Mage Armor, although that takes up a spell slot and not every party will have it available).  Hmm.  Maybe it is pretty even.
> 
> Of course, don't read that and go "Hmm, then they don't really need full BAB progression".  Their primary role is still beating stuff up in melee, and they really can't do that if they don't have full BAB.  Their expected damage output becomes something just awful.




You're probably right re: the Monk and full BAB(and a quick look at the Ranger class adds further support), but this really isn't an E6 problem -- monks kinda suck in D&D3.5 in general. I think they suck *less* in E6 because their special abilities stay more relevant, and the Ability Training feat lets them "solve" MAD to an extent, but at the end of the day, they're nearer to the bottom of the curve.

However, fixing the Monk is really beyond the scope of E6, especially since Ryan has stated he's not terribly interested in trying to rebalance a lot of the D&D classes, and alterations to classes start to undercut the simplicity.

So...you're right, but I don't think a full-BAB Monk would make the E6 PDF. Still, it's an excellent analysis, and I'll probably house-rule Monks that way in my homegame.


----------



## Kunimatyu

Zelc said:
			
		

> Yea, but again, not everyone has MIC .  We should make sure the game works if they run it straight up core-only without any/many houserules, and core-only E6 would be more fun with flaming swords .




That's a pity -- MIC is a damn fine book, one of the best WotC has produced for 3.5.

There are a lot of little things like the flaming swords issue, but I'm not really sure how to address it within the "core" E6 rules without upping the aforementioned houserule quotient.

Here's one way to do it -- flaming swords are powerful magical items, requiring a creature of more than mortal stature (Dragon, Titan, Trumpet Archon, Storm Giant, even a formian queen) to craft it. 

They can also be relics of a forgotten era using secrets beyond the reach of magicians today.

You can also acquire a flaming sword in E6 as a Legacy Weapon(I *think*).

At the end of the day, I think choices like these are best up to the DM -- a "one-size-fits-all" approach likely won't work for E6.


----------



## Mokona

Zelc said:
			
		

> In fact, there are VERY FEW +1 weapon enhancements that can be crafted in E6.



My house rule removes the requirement that flaming weapons first be +1 weapons.  Does this help lower the CL of a flaming sword?


----------



## Imp

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> At the end of the day, I think choices like these are best up to the DM -- a "one-size-fits-all" approach likely won't work for E6.



I agree – one of the attractions of E6 to me is that it _doesn't_ have lots of flaming swords all over the place.  What to do about TWF vs. THF vs. sword/board is, after a point*, probably the job of an entirely other set of optional rules (which I would welcome!  yeesh) because it's such a big job.

*giving E6 monks pounce is probably a good idea; if they're that far behind in damage output I'd almost consider letting them full-attack _during_ their move like a halfling outrider! sheesh.  It would fit the class at least.


----------



## shdwrnr

Mokona said:
			
		

> My house rule removes the requirement that flaming weapons first be +1 weapons.  Does this help lower the CL of a flaming sword?




No, Mokona. Crafting a mgic item uses the highest caster level requirement. Thus a +0, +1, +2, and even +3 flaming weapons are all CL 10.


----------



## Will

Well, for the monk, I'd say go play a gestalt game. 

As for flaming swords, I kind of like the idea that it requires the equivalent of an incantation.

IE: 'To capture the spirit of flame in a sword, it must be bathed in the flames of a prince of fire elementals, the blood of a red dragon, and then bound by the watery ichor of a nixie.'

Said sword must be +1, and the treasure value of all the above encounters jiggered so that the character's share is 6000 gp.


----------



## Zelc

Imp said:
			
		

> I agree – one of the attractions of E6 to me is that it _doesn't_ have lots of flaming swords all over the place.



Hmm, I suppose you have a point, and I guess there would be many people who want flaming swords to be much rarer than +2 swords.  Maybe lowering their CR can be in one of those "Optional Rules" boxes in the PDF.



> What to do about TWF vs. THF vs. sword/board is, after a point*, probably the job of an entirely other set of optional rules (which I would welcome!  yeesh) because it's such a big job.



Well, the difference between TWF and THF is about a 10% difference (slightly above 10% for 2x short swords, slightly below 10% for a longsword + shortsword).  A capstone feat that reduces the TWF penalty down to -1/-1 would bring the damage figures really close to that for THF.  Also, a feat that allows you to attack once with both weapons as an attack action is a good idea.



> However, fixing the Monk is really beyond the scope of E6, especially since Ryan has stated he's not terribly interested in trying to rebalance a lot of the D&D classes, and alterations to classes start to undercut the simplicity.
> 
> So...you're right, but I don't think a full-BAB Monk would make the E6 PDF. Still, it's an excellent analysis, and I'll probably house-rule Monks that way in my homegame.



I see your point.  Truly, though, it's one or two lines in the PDF: Monks gain full BAB progression, and Soulknives gain full BAB progression.  Very simple, and these two classes depend on hitting stuff in order to be effective.  Playing a monk only to do much less damage than a fighter would not be very fun for most people.  The fixed nature of E6 means some other bonuses higher level monks would get, like extremely high speeds and Quivering Palm will probably not see play.  That means monks will be behind by a lot, and they will stay behind by a lot.  I think the nature of the E6 system at least requires a strong recommendation for that change.


----------



## Ry

Hey guys, could you start a thread about E6 class balance in House Rules?  Per my deal with Piratecat, this thread's purpose is more around making E6 campaigns (that's why it hasn't been moved over to house rules by the mods).


----------



## joela

*Alternative*



			
				Will said:
			
		

> As for flaming swords, I kind of like the idea that it requires the equivalent of an incantation.
> 
> IE: 'To capture the spirit of flame in a sword, it must be bathed in the flames of a prince of fire elementals, the blood of a red dragon, and then bound by the watery ichor of a nixie.'
> 
> Said sword must be +1, and the treasure value of all the above encounters jiggered so that the character's share is 6000 gp.




Exactly. Or make a deal with the devil/angel/nature spirit/elder race, etc., to make it for you. First, though, you have the pay the price....   

Damn. Now _that_ sounds like fantasy adventuring.


----------



## joela

*convincing the players*



			
				rycanada said:
			
		

> Hey guys, could you start a thread about E6 class balance in House Rules?  Per my deal with Piratecat, this thread's purpose is more around making E6 campaigns (that's why it hasn't been moved over to house rules by the mods).




And speaking of campaigns, I'm a hairs throw away from starting one, possibly two, Eberron games.

"Eberron Politico" will be set in Sharn as the PCs get involved in the machinations of the Dragonmarked and Aberrents as the two factions struggle to replace three Houses due to the disappearance of all Dwarves and Elves. "Eberron Adventurous" will have a separate group of PCs trekking across Eberron via those flying ships engaging in traditional dungeon crawls, etc. While the players are thrilled to be starting at 6th level, how do I convince them to use the E6 system?


----------



## Ry

All I can say is show them how many cool feats they can take, how awesome their characters will be, and emphasize that the world isn't going to be expecting them to jump this ridiculous curve.  They can still plan "builds" but they should look at that build in terms of feats instead of levels (assure them they won't want for stuff to build).


----------



## Ry

Also tell them the villain they hate in the first session might still be a credible threat when they meet him.  Hell, tell them this will make it more fun for you to DM it: everybody knows a game's more likely to last when the DM is psyched for the concept.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

joela said:
			
		

> And speaking of campaigns, I'm a hairs throw away from starting one, possibly two, Eberron games.
> 
> "Eberron Politico" will be set in Sharn as the PCs get involved in the machinations of the Dragonmarked and Aberrents as the two factions struggle to replace three Houses due to the disappearance of all Dwarves and Elves. "Eberron Adventurous" will have a separate group of PCs trekking across Eberron via those flying ships engaging in traditional dungeon crawls, etc. While the players are thrilled to be starting at 6th level, how do I convince them to use the E6 system?



Tell them they get to use tons of feats and that they probably get a new feat after each session (that' assuming you have long sessions like my group) and nobody can screw them over with Unholy Blights or Finger of Death...


----------



## Hrothgar Rannúlfr

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> You're probably right re: the Monk and full BAB...



That's why I like Gestalt E6.  If you want a Monk with full BAB, it's easy.  Just pick a class to go with it that has full BAB.

Did I mention that I really like the idea of Gestalts?


----------



## Hrothgar Rannúlfr

*E6 & Vampires*



			
				joela said:
			
		

> Hrothgar Rannúlfr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was just wondering about the best way to build an E6 legal vampire....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since vampires are monsters, I'd view them as such and just scale their abilities to the appropriate CR.
Click to expand...


Yeah... That's one way.  But, the ECL being higher than 6th still bugs me a little.  Though, I guess it's not that much different than a 6th level character with 30 extra feats.  I guess that's the part that I wasn't considering.


----------



## Hrothgar Rannúlfr

*E6 & Characters Becoming Vampires/Liches*



			
				joela said:
			
		

> I'd look into deals with high-level evil creatures and/or incantations if the PCs were, for whatever, interested in such beasts [vampires/liches].



Good suggestion.  Though, I still like using the Bone Creature template instead of the lich template, as Ryan suggested, for the lich.


----------



## Hrothgar Rannúlfr

*E6 & Level Drains*



			
				joela said:
			
		

> I've seen such recommendations in the past where PCs have to pay off "negative xps" before they start leveling again. That could easily work with E6: a vampire-bitten PC with 15000 of negative xps from a vampire would be 3 feats behind the rest of the party before they could start accruing xps again.



Agreed.

Though, with the level being worth approximately 5 feats... Shouldn't each level drain cost 25,000 XP?  Truly nasty, but isn't that the right price?


----------



## Hrothgar Rannúlfr

*E6 Lich Adventure Seeds*



			
				joela said:
			
		

> As for lich, I'd either have the NPC make a deal with a high-level devil/demon and use incantation to make the change. This could easily lead to an adventure where the PCs are desperately racing to either prevent the creation of the lich or find some way to reduce its power. (Maybe through another incantation? A deal with good powers? Or temporary feats like a non-permanent Exalted feat to bring the smackdown to the lich on equal levels?)



All good ideas.  And, I like ideas that I can use as seeds for adventures.


----------



## Hrothgar Rannúlfr

*E6, Vampires, & ECL (Effective Character Level)*



			
				Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Hrothgar Rannúlfr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope I never need a True Vampire as an option for PC's. To me, Vampires are monsters and they should stay that way. I was just wondering about the best way to build an E6 legal vampire and the Level Adjustment stuck out at me as making True Vampires non-existant.Interesting thoughts about the effect of level drains on the feats beyond sixth. I don't think that's been addressed, yet for E6. I wonder if Ryan's got any thoughts on this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think E6 forbids monsters with a CR above 6, just monsters with class levels higher than 6. So a NPC Vampire Fighter6 would have CR 8 (If I remember the CR modifier correctly), and two of these Vampires would make a challenging encounter for a 6th level E6 character.
Click to expand...


My hurdle that I was having difficulty getting over was the idea of ECL (Effective Character Level).  Vampires have a +8 Level Adjustment and are, therefore, over the E6 Level Limit to begin with... UNLESS, we consider the idea that a 6th level character plus 10 feats is effectively an 8th level character.  And, with that line of thinking, there's not really a reason not to use the True Vampire as is with the +8 Level Adjustment and all.  It just means that a fighter6 that gets turned into a vampire will go from 6th level plus X feats to ECL 14.  And, in that case, I might rule that the character couldn't gain any extra feats until the XP deficit were paid to reach the E6 equivalent of ECL 14 (Minimum total of 215,000 XP or 6th level plus 40 feats where 5 feats/ECL times 8 equals 40 feats)... which would effectively remove any potential advancement of the character for the rest of the campaign.

Is there a better way to rule in the situation?


----------



## Hrothgar Rannúlfr

*E6 & Higher CR Vampires*



			
				Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> If you want the Vampire to have a higher CR, that might be more difficult. You'd need a humanoid race with a higher base CR than player races. But I don't think that's really necessary. If you give the Vampire more hit points (thanks to feats gained after level 6), he should come off pretty dangerous, simply because it takes forever to take him down (Which is a pretty critical benefit if the Vampires keeps his Energy Drain ability)



I think extra feats are pretty much the solution to increasing the CR of the vampire.  The problem is in dealing with the 40 feat deficit that a new vampire would have to pay before being able to gain new feats.  Perhaps, some sort of E6 version of Savage Species advancement that would allow the E6 Vampire to alternate paying his XP debt with gaining new feats?


----------



## Hrothgar Rannúlfr

*Buffy v. the Vampires... E6 Style?*



			
				Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> (I just have to think of Buffy the Vampire Slayer - every Vampire automatically is a Martial Artist that can strike her and can throws her around, but only the _really_ important Vampires survive longer than a few "rounds". They probably all have a similar attack bonus but the important ones got more hit points)



Probably true.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Hrothgar Rannúlfr said:
			
		

> My hurdle that I was having difficulty getting over was the idea of ECL (Effective Character Level).  Vampires have a +8 Level Adjustment and are, therefore, over the E6 Level Limit to begin with... UNLESS, we consider the idea that a 6th level character plus 10 feats is effectively an 8th level character.  And, with that line of thinking, there's not really a reason not to use the True Vampire as is with the +8 Level Adjustment and all.  It just means that a fighter6 that gets turned into a vampire will go from 6th level plus X feats to ECL 14.  And, in that case, I might rule that the character couldn't gain any extra feats until the XP deficit were paid to reach the E6 equivalent of ECL 14 (215,000 XP or 6th level plus 40 feats where 5 feats/ECL times 8 equals 40 feats)... which would effectively remove any potential advancement of the character for the rest of the campaign.
> 
> Is there a better way to rule in the situation?



Well, this is only a problem if a PC is turned Vampire and stays a PC. 
Which is not suggested by either the Core nor the E6 rules. For NPCs, the Level Adjustment has no meaning and they (actually the DM) only needs to "worry" about the CR modifier. 
(You will run into similar problems with LA races, too.)


----------



## shdwrnr

So I've been milling about with campaign ideas for my first E6 game. Do you guys think Dark Sun E6 would be too much work to convert? It seems like the gritty struggle for survival setting that Dark Sun presents would work well, but upon reviewing the rules, it seems like it might be a bit too deadly; that Dark Sun was created for a higher level range than E6. Any thoughts?


----------



## Ry

There's a few products that have "corpse creature" templates (which isnt' much more than changing to Undead type, honestly), add a sunlight vulnerability, a special "regen to ful when drinking blood" ability, and that's where I'd start for a vampire.  From there, I'd make a ritual for turning a living person into a vampire, and then I'd start adding feats to customize the vampire properly.


----------



## Will

Could you name a few? I've been curious about a general 'undead' template that doesn't have all the extra crud of ghost, lich, vampire, or mummy.


----------



## Ry

One's book of vile darkness, I'm pretty sure Deluxe Book of Templates has something too.


----------



## Ry

shdwrnr said:
			
		

> So I've been milling about with campaign ideas for my first E6 game. Do you guys think Dark Sun E6 would be too much work to convert? It seems like the gritty struggle for survival setting that Dark Sun presents would work well, but upon reviewing the rules, it seems like it might be a bit too deadly; that Dark Sun was created for a higher level range than E6. Any thoughts?




I think it could be sweet, but you would have to think about how to do the monsters.  Do you want the radioactive flair of darksun or just the grittiness? 

I ran a _fantastic_ campaign arc (6 sessions) set in Dark Sun with no radioactive flair and lots of spirit magic.  The game wasn't recognizeable as Dark Sun but if you decide to take Dark Sun Sorcerer Kings and Evil, Tempting Magic as well as Few Resources but skip Radioactive Monsters you could have one bad-ass game.


----------



## Will

BoVD? Doh, I have that book... Not to be too divergent, but is the one in BoVD 3.5 compatible? (If need be I can spawn a separate thread)


----------



## Ry

Unless it mentions DR I can hardly imagine that Corpse Creature has 3.5 / 3.0 changes.


----------



## SodaGuy

I had a thought about prestige classes that you can't get into by 6th level.

I'll use loremaster as an example. It requires 10 ranks in two skills, so you can't take it. But what if you took the new feat to give you higher max skill ranks twice. And then open minded to get 10 ranks in both skills. If you also meet the other prerequisites, you could trade a level of wizard for one of loremaster probably with the phb2 retraining rules. You'd still be around the same power level but with class features more focused toward what you want.

I think it'd work.


----------



## Kunimatyu

rycanada said:
			
		

> Unless it mentions DR I can hardly imagine that Corpse Creature has 3.5 / 3.0 changes.




The big change is that Corpse Creature had all damage by non-slashing weapons reduced by 1/2(just like 3.0 zombies), whereas the 3.5 version should probably have DR10/slashing.

You're probably going to be changing it to silver anyways, but I thought I'd throw that out there anyways...


----------



## Mokona

rycanada said:
			
		

> this thread's purpose is more around making E6 campaigns



I can't wait to see *Dungeons & Dragons* 4th Edition but I hope that it still has feats so I can play E6: 4.0   .  *Wizards of the Coast* hopes they can extend the sweet spot but I'll believe it when I see it (few if any roleplaying games achieve this goal - but E6 is just that good)!  E6 is perfect for a points of light campaign and is so simple it might be mostly version independent.

Can we get anyone to discuss E6 mods of 4th edition?


----------



## Kunimatyu

Mokona said:
			
		

> Can we get anyone to discuss E6 mods of 4th edition?




I think we'll have to wait till considerably later to have enough information to pull that off...


----------



## Ry

Before I can talk about 4e incarnations of E6, I need to see what they mean by "the math is different" and that probably won't happen until we see the PHB.

I am just DYING to see that SRD though.


----------



## PoeticJustice

SodaGuy said:
			
		

> I had a thought about prestige classes that you can't get into by 6th level.
> 
> I'll use loremaster as an example. It requires 10 ranks in two skills, so you can't take it. But what if you took the new feat to give you higher max skill ranks twice. And then open minded to get 10 ranks in both skills. If you also meet the other prerequisites, you could trade a level of wizard for one of loremaster probably with the phb2 retraining rules. You'd still be around the same power level but with class features more focused toward what you want.
> 
> I think it'd work.




or you could just ask the player if they'd like to swap their level 5 bonus feat or Scribe Scroll or their familiar for the Lore ability.


----------



## joela

*mixed reaction*



			
				rycanada said:
			
		

> You guys are fantastic; I'm loving all this work on E6 and related stuff, because I think people will really click with this.  My weekly game is on hiatus, so it's really great to see people getting other games together that see how E6 puts the whole game together.




There's been a fairly intense discussion of E6 over at http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=355059. The biggest arguments against the variant is that it supposidely can be duplicated by either playing another D20 game or alternative low-power fantasy (e.g., GURPS, Runequest, etc.).


----------



## joela

*New E6 post*



			
				rycanada said:
			
		

> Hey guys, could you start a thread about E6 class balance in House Rules?




rycanada, did you want to start the new post in House Rules? i have a question on an E6 variant and wanted input.


----------



## Ry

Depends; if you want to talk about E8 or E6 with a different set of classes (i.e. Iron heroes E6 or Arcana Evolved E6), I'm sure here's fine, but if you're talking about balance issues or nitty-gritty rules matters (i.e. making a set of modified spells for E6) that's probably House Rules territory.


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## Cheiromancer

*Is* there an (unlocked) E6 thread in House Rules?  Or does someone have to start one?


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## Ry

Go ahead and start one.  I am no longer necessary to E6's existence.


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## Raven Crowking

rycanada said:
			
		

> Go ahead and start one.  I am no longer necessary to E6's existence.





Ah, the baby birds are leaving the nest......


----------



## Zelc

Balancing E6 is up in House Rules.


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## Kunimatyu

Alright, here's the first draft of my campaign document for Mu. It's based on the Sorcerer supplemt "Dictionary of Mu" -- I've altered it for d20, and tweaked a number of other elements to my liking.

_And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains: round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

			-*Ozymandias*_, Percy Shelley

*The world of Mord is dying* 

        Countless eons ago, Mord was a place of great beauty, a green jewel shining among the stars, but the slow passage of time has taken its toll. Forests and fields have been swallowed by the ever-expanding red desert, and the great ocean has been reduced to to a few meager brineflats. The works of the *Old Ones* -- mighty pyramids capable of sailing the void, metal stamped in the likeness of mind, hieroglyphs written in the strange language of Maths -- lie forgotten beneath the red sands, waiting for storms or arcane knowledge to bring them to light.

	In dark *Lemuria*, the Witch-King sits atop his throne, gathering practitioners of dark and loathsome arts while the noble houses squabble over the scraps of power at his feet. His sorcerous followers make pacts with forces from forgotten epochs, and winged shapes wearing the faces of men darken the skies of Lemuria. It is whispered in the streets of his capital that the Witch-King has acquired a demon in the shape of a sword, a creature capable of consuming history itself...

	To the east, the fanatical legions of *Hy-Brasil* are joined daily by new believers, eager to prove their worth to their Damsel Messiah so that they may be one of the 144,000 who join her when she ascends and leaves the wastes of Mord behind forever. 

	In the west, citizens of the decadent city-state of *Atlantis* sit idly in their crystal domes, unconcerned with the growing armies of Lemuria and Hy-Brasil. Under the domes, few surviving masters of enigmatic tradition of "psience" use their strange powers to grow  powerful crystal weapons, strange alien beasts, and -- according to some -- even human life itself...

	In times such as these, heroes are sorely needed -- will you restore Mord, or abandon it to its fate?

*Mord is part of a jealous family of gods*

	Chief among the gods is *Sar*, he of the unblinking yellow eye. Sar is prayed to after sins -- not for forgiveness, as Sar has none, but to make the punishment swift and soon.

	The *Ringed Lord* is a god of safety and family, symbolized by concentric circles drawn in the sand that represent the keep of stone rainbows that ward him and his family from harm.

*Urd* is the divine mother, the source of all life. It is said that when Mord dies, those who possess the means will travel to her gardens and rest forevermore.

*Merkune* is a god of greedy merchants, a lonely hermit guarding his endless silver mines and deep watering holes.

*Venu* is the goddess of love and beauty, but she has no sons or daughters, and it is said that her kiss is poison.

	Few worship grim *Mord* directly anymore -- and those that do are an ill lot, for the god hates the parasites who live upon his world and desires nothing more than to be free of them.

	There are others in the pantheon, but their temples are small and few.


----------



## Zelc

Here's a problem I've thought of.  Even with the Death Flag, PCs will die sometimes.  If they're level 6 with a lot of feats, this could be a problem.  In E6 settings, I think it'd be very strange if every time someone died, another Aragorn-type hero just popped up out of nowhere and joined the party.  Even if you use ritual resurrections, we still need to worry about the time between when the character dies and when the PCs finish the quest to set up the ritual.

I thought of a possible way to fix this problem, although this might not be for everyone.  Instead of creating one character, everyone creates two.  They only play one of their characters at a time, but they can swap their characters when appropriate (you could say the backup characters wait at the town or camp, or you could say the played characters are leading the way and the backup characters are just following them).  Both characters gain XP at the same rate.  That way, if one character dies, the player can play his other one.  Hopefully, both characters won't be dead at the same time, but even if that happens, the player can temporarily play someone else's backup character.  This can also vary the experience for your players so they're less likely to permanently switch characters.  If you have a large group, it could be cumbersome to imagine a group of 12 heroes running around, but in such cases, it might be better (if you have mature players!) for players to pair up and cooperatively design one backup character for the both of them.  After all, the fellowship was made up of 8 or 9 people...


----------



## Kunimatyu

Zelc said:
			
		

> Here's a problem I've thought of.  Even with the Death Flag, PCs will die sometimes.  If they're level 6 with a lot of feats, this could be a problem.




If the player really wants their character back, there's nothing wrong with having the party go on an adventure to revive him.

There's also (in principle) nothing wrong with having the character come back in a session or two, preferably with some sort of severe injury from the thing that was supposed to kill them, and a story of how they beat the odds and survived.

If they don't choose to bring the PC back (hopefully because the player has achieved something important by setting their death flag), then a new one can be introduced.

Depending on the game, a DM might choose to:
a) let them start with a Level 6 PC with all the fixin's
b) let them start a 'normal' Level 6 PC
c) let them start a lower-level PC and accelerate their XP gain
d) let them start a lower-level PC and XP normally

It all really depends on the setting and how common heroic 6th level characters are likely to be.


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## Ry

To me it's important for a player to be able to say "This is the thing that my character is willing to die for."  

One nice thing about E6 play is that a brand new 6th level character is definitely playable in a party of 6+10s or 6+20s.  

Now picture me as a hibernating bear waiting for spring:  When people to get actual games up to the 6+30 range and start running into the issues, I'll talk about this kind of issue from there.  But until then worrying about that stuff will get us nowhere.  I'm reluctant to get drawn into what-if scenarios that drain precious time away from preparing honest-to-goodness in the flesh E6 games.


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## Ry

Kuni, that game setting sounds freaking cool.  Are there any sources of inspiration for the setting besides the Dictionary of Mu?


----------



## Kunimatyu

rycanada said:
			
		

> Kuni, that game setting sounds freaking cool.  Are there any sources of inspiration for the setting besides the Dictionary of Mu?




Unquestionably. I've been steeping myself in theme-related material to prep for running the game.

Books/Authors: Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom series, Frank Herbert's Dune, Jack Vance's Dying Earth series, Robert E Howard, HP Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith
Movies/TV: Dune/Children of Dune miniseries, Vampire Hunter D
Games: Chrono Trigger(if all the time periods existed simultaneously), Final Fantasy 6, Secret of Mana, Illusion of Gaia, Terranigma

The anime/videogame references seem somewhat odd at first glance, but I'm convinced the similar themes have to do with the fact that Japanese artists were also reading Vance, Dune , and the like.

(It also has to do with advertising -- I'm on a college campus as a grad student, and I figure it'll help someone who hasn't heard of Vance or Howard but has read Dune or played a SNES RPG to know what's up.)


----------



## Zelc

rycanada said:
			
		

> To me it's important for a player to be able to say "This is the thing that my character is willing to die for."



Oh yea, I definitely agree .  The sticky part is what happens afterwards.  I'm thinking of running a game in a world where 6th level heroes are rare and famous, and it doesn't seem right to have another suddenly pop up and join the party, you know what I mean?  Even another 3rd or 4th level character popping up seems a bit unnatural.

It might be better to talk about it later, but I like to plan really far ahead, heh.



			
				Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> If the player really wants their character back, there's nothing wrong with having the party go on an adventure to revive him.



What does the player do while the others are resurrecting his character?  That's the problem I'm trying to solve with the backup character idea.



> c) let them start a lower-level PC and accelerate their XP gain



This sounds like a good idea.  I could probably try something like that.


----------



## der_kluge

I'm curious - from those who have ran E6 (or E8) do you find that the campaign tends to be shorter?

Personally, I see the potential for a shorter campaign a good thing. Most games I've been involved with sort of lose steam somewhere around 10th level, even if they get to that point. So, the idea that you could get to 6th level and then retire is kind of appealing.

Does it play that way, or do the campaigns just go on and on?


----------



## Ry

In my experience, the campaigns go on and on but the characters get retired more often (like, I'm a Duke now, I'm retiring.  You kids have fun adventuring and remember that Castle Ausom will always be a safe haven for you).  Occasionally they come out of retirement when big things are happening.


----------



## Kunimatyu

I'm going to start posting some of my notes for my upcoming "Mord" (Dictionary of Mu) campaign:

*Character Generation:*

I'm not a big fan of nonhumans (mostly because you really have to play them as people in funny suits, or they become unrelatable) and this setting has much more of a "science fantasy" feel, so I think I'm going to go with humans as the only playable race. (There are some nonhumans lurking in the shadows, like some very Barsoomian four-armed white apes, but that's for later...)

My other reason for doing this was to avoid a non-obvious pitfall of E6 -- when you get bonus feats after level six (and one of those feats grants more skill points), the classic human benefits of an extra feat and skill points don't mean very much. In a standard campaign, this would encourage people to pick exclusively non-human races, losing some of the feel I want.

However, there's still the problem of the extra feat and skill points not being that useful. I've decided to fix that by grabbing one of my favorite d20 books, Iron Heroes, and pulling the Trait system out of it. For those unfamiliar with IH, traits are an alternative way of granting players abilities similar to racial abilities in the standard PHB, but they're based on the character's background and history rather than their race. For example, a character who has the "City Rat" and "Perceptive" traits will be very different from one who chooses "Child of Faith" and "World Traveler". I'm also creating a few unique traits for the world of Mord -- "Child of Atlantis" will give the character the ability to take psionic classes, for example. I'm hoping that the trait system will encourage people to think more closely about their character's backstory and get them a little bit more involved.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

rycanada said:
			
		

> Occasionally they come out of retirement when big things are happening.



I've been sold all throughout this thread, but that there pushed it from "I wonder if I can get folks to play this" to "I will get folks to play this at all costs." To be able to triumphantly return from retirement and be essentially on the same page as all the other heroes . . . Now that feels epic.


----------



## Azurecobalt

First of all, forgive my long post. I don’t know how to make things disappear behind clicky boxes as I’ve never posted at EN World before, but rycanada’s E6 idea drew me out.  It’s a fantastic idea, and I wanted to add my own contribution for those interested.

Building off of shdwrnr’s idea of prestige feats, I went through the 3.5 DMG prestige classes and converted them into feat chains. I had to avoid the archmage and hierophant due to their power levels. I made a few changes from shdwrnr’s feats and ideas, however. Like those feats, each feat chain begins with a “NameofPrestigeClass Training” feat.  For each of these, the prerequisites are character level 6, whatever prerequisites exist in the DMG (where possible, see below) and no other prestige feats from another prestige feat chain.

I was forced to change some prestige class requirements to allow them to work at level six or for greater flexibility. The short overview: Arcane Archer’s BAB was changed to +3 to accommodate the multiclassing requirement (spellcaster and fighting class of some stripe), Arcane Trickster’s spellcasting requirement was changed to casting 2nd level spells to accommodate the necessary multiclassing (rogue levels for sneak attacks), Duelist’s BAB was changed to +4 to accommodate rogue duelists, Dwarven Defender’s BAB requirement was changed to +6 for obvious reasons, Eldrich Knight’s spellcasting requirement was changed to casting 2nd level spells to allow for gishes, Loremaster’s skill requirements were changed to Knowledge (any two) 9 to prevent the necessity of skill feats to qualify on top of the other feat requirements, Shadowdancer’s Hide skill requirement was changed to Hide 9 to avoid the necessity of skill feats on top of the other feat requirements and Thaumaturgist’s “ability to cast lesser planar ally” was changed to the Augment Summoning feat because 4th level spells aren’t available in E6, and the Thaumaturgist will gain lesser plannar ally as an ability with the Thaumaturgist Training feat). 

The way feat chain progession works is similar to prestige class advancement. The first feat begins the chain, then the second feat requires the first, the third requires the second, and so on. This allows the characters abilities to grow as if they were taking levels in the class.

For the feat chains themselves, I tried to include prestige class abilities up to 3rd level and occasionally level 4. Hopefully this will keep the power level in  the 6-10 quartile as mentioned by rycanada. I occasionally added abilities from further into the prestige class, but usually only when it was a prestige class meant to encourage multiclassing, if it was a weak prestige class (your mileage may vary), or if it seemed to be the “Signature” ability of the prestige class (and losing it would lose the point of taking the feat chain).

Without further ado, here’s the list (as a list of feats instead of pasting the entire document – the feats are essentially giving the benefit of the class ability, so you get the idea):

Arcane Archer Feat Chain
1	Arcane Archer Training (enhance arrow +1)
2	Imbue Arrow
3	Enhance Arrow +2
4	Seeking Arrow
5	Enhance Arrow +3
6	Phase Arrow

Arcane Trickster Feat Chain
1	Arcane Trickster Training (Ranged Legerdemain 1/day)
2	Expanded Casting
3	Sneak Attack +1d6
4	Expanded Casting
5	Sneak Attack +1d6
6	Impromptu Sneak Attack

Assassin Feat Chain
1	Assassin Training (sneak attack +1d6)
2	Poison Use
3	Uncanny Dodge
4	Sneak Attack +1d6
5	Spells (as per shdwrnr’s feat)
6	Death Attack

Blackguard Feat Chain
1	Blackguard Training (fallen from grace, aura of evil, detect good)
2	Smite Good
3	Spells (as per shdwrnr’s feat)
4	Dark Blessing / Aura of Despair (both as one feat)
5	Command Undead
6	Fiendish Servant

Dragon Disciple Feat Chain
1	Dragon Disciple Training (Natural Armor +1)
2	Claws and Bite
3	Natural Armor +1
4	Breath Weapon 2d8
5	Natural Armor +1
6	Breath Weapon 4d8

Duelist Feat Chain
1	Duelist Training (+1 Canny Defense and Improved Reaction +2)
2	Enhanced Mobiity
3	+1 Canny Defense
4	Grace
5	+1 Canny Defense
6	Precise Strike +1d6

Dwarven Defender Feat Chain
1	Dwarven Defender Training (Defensive Stance 1/day)
2	Uncanny Dodge
3	Defensive Stance 2/day
4	Trap Sense +1
5	Defensive Stance 3/day
6	Damage Reduction 2/-

Eldrich Knight Feat Chain
1	Eldrich Knight Training (Fighter Bonus Feat, Expanded Casting)
2	Weapon Specialization
3	Expanded Casting
4	Greater Weapon Focus
5	Expanded Casting
6	Second Attack at +0 BAB

Horizon Walker Feat Chain
1	Horizon Walker Training (Terrain Mastery)
2	Terrain Mastery
3	Terrain Mastery
4	Terrain Mastery
5	Terrain Mastery
6	Planar Terrain Mastery

Loremaster Feat Chain
1	Loremaster Training (Secret)
2	Lore
3	Secret
4	Bonus Language
5	Secret
6	Greater Lore

Mystic Theurge Feat Chain
1	Mystic Theurge Training (Expanded Knowledge Arcane / Expanded Knowledge Divine)
2	Expanded Casting Arcane / Expanded Casting Divine
3	Expanded Knowledge Arcane / Expanded Knowledge Divine 
4	Expanded Casting Arcane / Expanded Casting Divine
5	Expanded Knowledge Arcane / Expanded Knowledge Divine 
6	Expanded Casting Arcane / Expanded Casting Divine & 
Expanded Knowledge Arcane / Expanded Knowledge Divine (3rd level)

Shadowdancer Feat Chain
1	Shadowdancer Training (Hide in Plain Sight)
2	Evasion
3	Uncanny Dodge
4	Darkvision
5	Summon Shadow
6	Shadow Jump 40 feet

Thaumaturgist Feat Chain
1	Thaumaturgist Training (Expanded Casting [Lesser Planar Ally])
2	Improved Ally
3	Expanded Casting
4	Extend Summoning
5	Expanded Casting
6	Planar Cohort

Some notes / questions / concerns: 

1) The various training feats give the class skills listed in the prestige class descriptions as class skills to the character. They also give an additional ability from the prestige class.

2) For classes that gave spellcasting class levels, I instead gave “Expanded Casting” to give additional spell slots. I’m not sure if this is a fair tradeoff (or a choice befitting the flavor of the prestige class). I’m open to other ideas.

For specific prestige classes, some clarification:

The Blackguard’s Fallen From Grace ability gives the abilities listed in the Blackguard Prestige Class for swapping out Paladin levels (since they’re losing paladin abilities, it seems fair).

For the capstone ability of Eldrich Knight, I included a second attack (since to get into the Prestige Class feat chain you’d only have a BAB of +3) at +0. Not sure if this would work, but I wanted to do something to reflect the greater fighting ability of the original prestige class.

For the Mystic Theurge, at each feat in the feat chain I gave two feats: expanded casting for each area (one divine, one arcane) or expanded knowledge for each area (one divine, one arcane). At the capstone feat, I gave all four, but allowing one third level slot for each (divine, arcane) and one spell known for each, but with the caveat that no additional feats could add additional third level slots or third level spells known. I’m not sure if this is too powerful or not, but I’m not sure how else to allow Mystic Theurge to work (otherwise, just multiclass and take the Expanded Casting / Knowledge feats – why bother with a pretige class feat chain?).

For Thaumaturgist, at first level they gain the ability to cast one fourth level spell (lesser plannar cohort), but with the limitation that they can never take feats to add additional fourth level slots or spells known. I’m not sure if their planar cohort will be possible with the restrictions as per the prestige class ability.

I’d love some feedback. Let me know what you think.


----------



## Ry

Hi Azurecobalt, glad E6 has you thinking for your own campaign!

I think a lot of those feats look _very_ powerful - I can't imagine most of them are a tough decision versus other feats - but that's OK.  If you want to have a campaign that emphasizes say, 6 key organizations (Arcane Archers, Blackguards, Loremasters, Shadowdancers) these feats would be a great way to do that.  There may be some balance issues and you should probably go over them, but you're likely to be ready to DM the game you want in a very short order.


----------



## Ry

As an aside, I find a lot of the excellent freebies you see online at various publishers' websites fit in the E6 "sweet spot" - it's easy to run a long campaign, I believe, off of only those resources.


----------



## Azurecobalt

rycanada said:
			
		

> Hi Azurecobalt, glad E6 has you thinking for your own campaign!
> 
> I think a lot of those feats look _very_ powerful - I can't imagine most of them are a tough decision versus other feats - but that's OK.  If you want to have a campaign that emphasizes say, 6 key organizations (Arcane Archers, Blackguards, Loremasters, Shadowdancers) these feats would be a great way to do that.  There may be some balance issues and you should probably go over them, but you're likely to be ready to DM the game you want in a very short order.




I agree that those feats are certainly more powerful than "normal" feats, much in the same way that prestige class levels are more powerful than normal class levels. The idea is to simulate the idea of prestige classes in E6, when the very nature of the system prevents them. As always, YMMV, but for those who like prestige feats, it seems like a good alternative. Balance issues I'd have to leave up to the number crunchers, but I'll find out through playtesting.

As an aside, I was thinking a good way to balance humans versus non-human races in terms of balance (humans "only" get a bonus feat, which may not be as valuable when everyone eventually gets a large number of feats) would be to give humans one skill point per feat they earn following sixth level...


----------



## Kunimatyu

Time for the next installment of my E6 Campaign Setting Design Diary:

*Character Classes in the World of Mord*

To me, part of the fun of E6 is using lots of the splatbook core classes, as the sheer number of feats and the lower-level sweet spot make a lot of them more viable choices. Because of this, I'm not restricting core classes at all - if a player wants to play a Spellthief, they can go nuts!

To emphasize the dark, pulp feel of the setting, I'm focusing on two non-core classes, the warlock and hexblade. Warlocks fit the setting very well, and with the addition of a feat that lets them take additional Lesser Invocations (provided they always have more Least ones), they can gain the flexibility they need to compete with E6 casters.

The Hexblade is a bit trickier, but thankfully, PHB2 and Dragon Magazine have expanded Hexblade options considerably. PHB2 offers an incorporeal companion that gives adjacent foes -2 to their saves, and Dragon offers a range of exciting new curse options. With the addition of a capstone feat that grants Hexblades the Greater Curse ability (normally acquired at 7th), and a substitution level that lets them pick up a Lesser Invocation instead of their first-level spells, the Hexblade is ready for the prime time.

Flavor-wise, I'm going to keep some of the Sorceror system flavor with the Hexblade companion, and make them warriors powered by the spirit of a demon -- the ghostly "companion" becomes the manifestation of it.The more I think about it, the more I want to give each class with the ability to call a familiar the ability to choose a "dark companion".

For those wondering what I'm babbling about here, in the original setting, magic-users gain their powers by calling upon "demons", which are the spirits of dead things: a lost language, a powerful leader, a fallen civilization, etc. Having most magic (with the exception of Atlantean "psience") linked to these demons would do a lot to restore the flavor of the setting. The trick is just finding alternate familiar-equivalent abilities that lend themselves to this sort of thing...


----------



## Imp

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> For those wondering what I'm babbling about here, in the original setting, magic-users gain their powers by calling upon "demons", which are the spirits of dead things: a lost language, a powerful leader, a fallen civilization, etc. Having most magic (with the exception of Atlantean "psience") linked to these demons would do a lot to restore the flavor of the setting. The trick is just finding alternate familiar-equivalent abilities that lend themselves to this sort of thing...



Binders seem an obvious fit, though I am unsure of their power level in E6.  Weakish?  I am not sure how to make piles of epic feats work for an E6 binder.  OTOH, a) they can pull 4th-level vestiges with Improved Binding, and a couple of those are pretty mean, and b) the Bind Vestige/ Improved Bind Vestige/ Practiced Binder feats seem very hard to resist for an epic E6 character: three feats for a crapload of flexibility.  Of course you'd have to not dump Charisma.  Hmmm...


----------



## Kunimatyu

Imp said:
			
		

> Binders seem an obvious fit, though I am unsure of their power level in E6.  Weakish?  I am not sure how to make piles of epic feats work for an E6 binder.  OTOH, a) they can pull 4th-level vestiges with Improved Binding, and a couple of those are pretty mean, and b) the Bind Vestige/ Improved Bind Vestige/ Practiced Binder feats seem very hard to resist for an epic E6 character: three feats for a crapload of flexibility.  Of course you'd have to not dump Charisma.  Hmmm...




I actually love the Binder idea, I just don't have the time to develop vestiges for all the things I'd need. Also, binders tend to be on the weakish side, so powering them up a bit would be a requirement.


----------



## joela

*Adapting high-level adventures to E6*

Has anyone given thought or, even better, played a published high-level module in E6? I'm looking to adapt Red Hand of Doom by WoTC and Shades of Gray by Necromancer games for my campaign which is set in Eberron. While both can accommodate lower level PCs (the former starts at 5th level while the latter starts at 1st), both have encounters later in the book designed for 6th+ level PCs (11th and 12th, respectively). 

My current ideas to adapt for E6 include 1) eliminate all unnecessary combat and 2) rescale all encounters, especially NPCs and monsters, to E6. For step 2, all major NPC encounters like elite soldiers, etc. are 3rd level while Big Bads are rewritten at 6th level + feats. 

Thoughts?


----------



## Hrothgar Rannúlfr

I have _Red Hand of Doom_.  Though, I won't get the opportunity to run it for several months.

Since, it's designed to take characters up to 12th level, I think it could be converted for use in E6.  The major hurdles would be converting anything 6th level or higher to 6th plus feats.  But, I believe it could be done.


----------



## Scurvy_Platypus

So, I've talked to my group and it looks like I'll be running an E8 game (with additional modifications) using Everstone (BESMd20 based) starting in a couple of weeks.

The question I've got is regarding NPC conversion.

Maybe I've managed to miss it somewhere, but is there a "consistent" or "recommended" method to handle NPC conversions?

The game is going to be taking place in Ptolus, and I'm looking for an easy handle on dealing with the NPCs. My thought was to simply take a look at how much XP the NPC had and subtract out the difference between level 8 and the NPC's level. Whatever is left over would buy feats as normal.

So for example, a 14th level character (91k) gets bumped back to 8th (28k) which leaves 63k worth of extra XP. Divided by 5k, and you wind up with 12.6. So 12 or 13 extra feats depending on which way you feel like swinging.

I could care less about the skills issue of doing a conversion, since I'm doing something different there. Just interested in a decent and/or quick-n-dirty way of dealing with rescaling the overall power of NPCs in a consistent fashion to match with the new setting assumptions.


----------



## cr0m

ry (and anyone else), are there any AP posts anywhere about E6? I'd like to see how things change and what kinds of games people are running with it.

Nice work, btw! Really got me excited about running D&D again!


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## Ry

Hi cr0m; AP notes were sprinkled through earlier threads but I don't know of any actual play accounts properly written up.  My own game is at 3rd level right now, so we're playing more with the Raising the Stakes mechanics than anything else (also, the game's on hiatus due to unreasonable work hours plus bronchitis on the part of yours truly).

Platypus: Your approach is 100% A-OK.   I usually eyeball it along the same lines.  If you do any stat writeups, mind sending them my way?


----------



## joela

*Prestige feats*

One of my players has just asked about the Exorcist of the Silver Flame PrC in my upcoming E6 variant campaign. What do you think of converting the prestige class levels into a talent tree? Would that make the feat too overwhelming? I'm thinking of stiffening prestige feats with entry requirements (i.e., need to perform a task worthy of joining the organization ), entry and membership costs (500 gp to enter, 100 gp a year to maintain), etc.


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## Kunimatyu

Judging from my brief look at the class, the Weapon of the Exorcist, Flame of Censure, Resist Possession, Weapon of Silver, and Weapon of Good all seem like abilities that could be converted to a feat chain without much trouble.


----------



## Ry

Kuni, drop me a line at my e-mail address


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## Kunimatyu

rycanada said:
			
		

> Kuni, drop me a line at my e-mail address




Line dropped.


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## SodaGuy

SodaGuy said:
			
		

> I had a thought about prestige classes that you can't get into by 6th level.
> 
> I'll use loremaster as an example. It requires 10 ranks in two skills, so you can't take it. But what if you took the new feat to give you higher max skill ranks twice. And then open minded to get 10 ranks in both skills. If you also meet the other prerequisites, you could trade a level of wizard for one of loremaster probably with the phb2 retraining rules. You'd still be around the same power level but with class features more focused toward what you want.
> 
> I think it'd work.




Nobody responded to this but I thought it was a good idea. Lemme re-explain and change it around some.

Say you're at fighter 6 but you want to get a level of exotic weapon master. Since you now meet the prereqs, at 21000xp you could trade a level. Lose everything fighter6 gets and gain the features of EWM1. Then at 28000xp you could trade fighter5 for EWM2 if you still meet the prereqs (which you usually will). Then you'd have a Ftr4/Ewm2. 

It would make most characters stronger but it does so in a way akin to adding feats. It keeps the balance that level 6 provides. There are probably a few classes you don't want a level 6 to have 5 levels in but those classes can just be banned. A wizard1/cleric1/mystic theurge4 would be possible and would have 5th level casting in both.

So, it's not perfect but I think it works. Let's you get the cool flavor abilities of midlevel prcs.


----------



## Kunimatyu

SodaGuy, I think you'd be much better off converting PrC abilities to feat chains then letting people "retrain" into prestige classes. The Mystic Theurge example seems problematic, too -- they'd be capable of casting 3rd level spells as a wizard and a cleric, which seems a little too good.


----------



## Scurvy_Platypus

SodaGuy:

I suppose you could do it your way, but I'd rather go the simpler approach and either redo the class as a series of feat chains like Kunimatyu says (and others have suggested), or let the PrC function as a base class and just ignore the prerequirements.


----------



## joela

*PrC as base*



			
				Scurvy_Platypus said:
			
		

> ...or let the PrC function as a base class and just ignore the prerequirements.




I may be finding out how that works. One of my players has expressed interest an Exorcist of the Silver Flame from Eberron for our upcoming variant E6 campaign. While he originally planned a cleric/paladin/exorcist, I tentatively gave my okay to play the exorcist straight as a base class. If he goes for it, I'll let y'all know how it works out.


----------



## Scurvy_Platypus

Ryan Stoughton said:
			
		

> Platypus: Your approach is 100% A-OK.   I usually eyeball it along the same lines.  If you do any stat writeups, mind sending them my way?




Groovy.

As for the stat writeup thing...ummm... well, I'd be happy to except I'm not really sure how useful it would actually be. I'm going to be handling the skills in a SW Saga sort of way and the NPCs are going to be taking a combination of things:

The advice of Nightcloak and how to handle NPCs in his GM Notebook thread:
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2137596&postcount=25

"Back-whacking" of the Ptolus NPCs.

Those two things aren't insurmountable in and of themselves, but Everstone uses a version of the BESMd20 rules, which is basically a point-based d20. I won't derail your thread, but instead give the link to my Everstone/Ptolus thread where I'll lay out how things are going to work. The thread is here: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=203970 Post 4 and 9 have information about the skills, and if you're feeling curious the rest of the thread has bits about how Everstone works.

And Oct 12 is the planned start date for character generation and the start of the game.


----------



## Treacherous_B

My friend and fellow EN-World poster Asmor turned me on to the idea of E6, and I'm currently working on a campaign setting for it.

I hadn't read anything about the concept on the boards before tonight (it's all awesome, btw) but had started working on what I called "pinnacle abilities" - abilities that could be bought post-6th that represented a dedication to one class and were supposed to be significantly more powerful than normal feats. The thought process here was that a low-level-capped game makes multi-classing appear more attractive as an option, so I wanted to reward players that stuck with one class the whole way.

Anyway, I re-formatted them and have simply called them pinnacle feats. They require 10,000xp to purchase post-6th instead of the 5,000xp for normal feats. I wanted to toss them up here to see what people thought about them.

---

*Favored of Fortune*
Description: Lady luck smiles upon you considerably more than most. This allows you to live through encounters that would likely kill normal folk.
Pre-requisites: Rogue level 6
Effect: 3 times a day you can re-roll any roll you have just made. This new roll is made after you discover whether or not the first roll was successful. You must take the result of the second roll, even if it is worse that the first.


*From the Brink*
Description: So imbued are you with your god's power that not even death is beyond your ability to heal.
Pre-requisite: Cleric level 6
Effect: You can prepare and cast _Raise Dead_ as a 2nd level spell. Characters with purchased bonus feats (including pinnacle feats) that go below level 6 by being raised lose access to those feats until they once again reach level 6.


*Grand Master*
Description: Your martial arts prowess makes you as deadly as you are quick - a potent combination in any battle.
Pre-requisites: Monk level 6
Effect: Your monk class abilities increase to the following: Flurry of Blows +4/+4/+0, unarmed damage 1d10, AC bonus +2.


*Indomitable*
Description: Years of grizzled combat and countless wounds have left you a nearly-unstoppable force on the battlefield.
Pre-requisites: Barbarian level 6
Effect: You gain damage reduction 2/-. In addition, you are no longer fatigued when coming out of a rage.


*Inspire Excellence*
Description: The tales you tell of former glories are so potent that they can stimulate almost mythic heroism.
Pre-requisites: Bard level 6
Effect: You may use your bardic music ability to inspire excellence in your allies. This grants them a +2 dodge bonus to AC, +2 morale bonus to saves, +2 competence bonus to attack and damage rolls, and +2 HP per HD. You may inspire a number of allies equal to one plus your charisma modifier. Using this ability is a standard action that requires concentration to maintain.


*Lifecaster*
Effect: For most spellcasters, magic is life. For you, however, life can be magic...and what potent magic it is.
Pre-requisite: Sorcerer level 6
Effect: You can take temporary constitution damage to increase the effective caster level of your spells. When you cast a spell, every one point of constitution damage you take increases the caster level that spell by one. You can't increase the effective caster level of a spell by more than 4 in this way. In addition, you may take constitution damage instead of increasing the spell slot used for spells you cast using Metamagic feats. For instance, you may cast a Maximized _Magic Missile_ by taking 4 constitution damage instead of having to use a 4th level spell slot.


*Master of Arms*
Description: Through either rigorous training, natural skill, or both, you manage to be exceptional with nearly any weapon you wield.
Pre-requisites: Fighter level 6
Effect: You get a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls while wielding any weapon with which you are proficient.


*Righteous Rejuvenation*
Description: In your continuing battle against evil, each strike grants you the extra strength needed to finish the fight.
Pre-requisites: Paladin level 6
Effect: Whenever you successfully hit an evil opponent with a melee weapon you heal 3 points of damage. Whenever you successfully hit an evil opponent with a Smite Evil attempt, you instead heal an amount of damage equal to the damage dealt. In addition, your melee weapons are treated as good-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.


*Savage Nature*
Description: Your considerable time in the wilderness has afforded you natural protections against the harshness of the world.
Pre-requisites: Druid level 6
Effect: You gain +4 natural armor (which stacks with other natural armor bonuses) and can spontaneously grow natural weapons as a move action (see the Morphic Weapons Warshaper class feature, Complete Warrior pg. 90)


*Stalking Hunter*
Description: So well-versed are you in the ways of slaying your enemies that you have mastered the art striking them where it is most vital.
Pre-requisites: Ranger level 6
Effect: You gain sneak attack +2d6 against your favored enemies. In addition, you may score critical hits on any favored enemies you have that are normally immune to critical hits.


*Tools of the Old World*
Effect: By harnessing your knowledge of the arcane, you can imbue items with magical energies most consider long lost - at a cost.
Pre-requisites: Wizard level 6
Effect: Your effective caster level for creating magic items is increased by 2 for every Item Creation feat you possess (maximum +6). In addition, you may substitute a Knowledge (Arcana) check for any Sorcerer/Wizard spell of 5th level or lower that you don't know when crafting a magic item. The DC for this check is 10 plus three times the replicated spells level. Creating an item in this fashion is taxing, however, and deals to the Wizard the replicated spells level in temporary constitution damage.


----------



## Kunimatyu

TB, check out E6's "capstone" feats on the first page of this thread.


----------



## Treacherous_B

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> TB, check out E6's "capstone" feats on the first page of this thread.




Oh I saw them, and they are good...but I was looking for something more powerful as a purchase in lieu of or as well as those.


----------



## Kunimatyu

Treacherous_B said:
			
		

> Oh I saw them, and they are good...but I was looking for something more powerful as a purchase in lieu of or as well as those.




Oh, I see. I don't really have the time to do a balance analysis on them (though if you pop over to the Balancing E6 thread in House Rules, there are a number of folks who'd be glad to offer their opinions), but the concept is certainly fine, and if you think it'll make the campaign more fun, go for it.


----------



## Mokona

Are there any *D&D* constructs that can be created by E6 wizards.  The lowest requirement I could find required a 4th level spell.


----------



## Kunimatyu

Mokona said:
			
		

> Are there any *D&D* constructs that can be created by E6 wizards.  The lowest requirement I could find required a 4th level spell.




You have to do it with incantations(Unearthed Arcana) instead of the typical ways of creating golems.


----------



## Zelc

The Balancing E6 thread can be found here, if you want someone to look over those feats.  I can tell you right off though, I think your monk feat is weak .

EDIT: By the way, does anyone want to make an E6 Feats thread in the houserules section and constantly update it with an index?  Possibly with a link to the Balancing thread so we can have the Feats thread be only for feats, while any balance issues can be discussed somewhere else.


----------



## Treacherous_B

Zelc said:
			
		

> The Balancing E6 thread can be found here, if you want someone to look over those feats.  I can tell you right off though, I think your monk feat is weak .




It IS a monk feat, after-all.


----------



## Kunimatyu

Zelc said:
			
		

> The Balancing E6 thread can be found here, if you want someone to look over those feats.  I can tell you right off though, I think your monk feat is weak .
> 
> EDIT: By the way, does anyone want to make an E6 Feats thread in the houserules section and constantly update it with an index?  Possibly with a link to the Balancing thread so we can have the Feats thread be only for feats, while any balance issues can be discussed somewhere else.




I'd suggest updating the Balancing E6 thread with a list of first off the first post, and change the title from Balancing E6 to "Balancing E6 - Now with Feat Index!" or the like.


----------



## Zelc

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> I'd suggest updating the Balancing E6 thread with a list of first off the first post, and change the title from Balancing E6 to "Balancing E6 - Now with Feat Index!" or the like.



The problem is, I don't want to be the one keeping the list updated .  I don't think I'll have that much time to keep up with it.


----------



## Evilhalfling

Scurvy_Platypus said:
			
		

> My thought was to simply take a look at how much XP the NPC had and subtract out the difference between level 8 and the NPC's level. Whatever is left over would buy feats as normal.
> 
> So for example, a 14th level character (91k) gets bumped back to 8th (28k) which leaves 63k worth of extra XP. Divided by 5k, and you wind up with 12.6. So 12 or 13 extra feats depending on which way you feel like swinging.




I would only give them 1/2 the number of extra feats, if that.  On the theory that 
A - there are less higher level threats, and thus xp comes at a slower rate. 

B - Its a lot of work to choose 12 new feats - trust me I've tried 
Take 2-6 ability boost feats (1-3 abilities) and perhaps 1 capstone (if you like these) 

C - Did the NPC really need to be 14th level? or was it an arbitrary designation?

D: the heavy math reason: Experiance is not exactly linear. 
an 8th lvl char needs 9k xp to advance, given in 13 encounters[sblock] or 6 encounters of CR10, 26 of CR6; adjusted by number of caompanions[/sblock] 
9000/13=692xp per encounter.  To reach 14th level the character would have had 14-8=6 levels with 13 encounters each. 13*6=78 encounters * 692xp  = 53k xp = 10 feats 
Did the NPC actually have 78 encounters after reachng 8th level?  *see point C *


----------



## Ry

We need more 5-feat quick templates.


----------



## Mokona

Since feats, after E6, are like adding levels what if Level Adjustment monsters created a feat debt (that need to be repaid) as part of the Point Buy solution offered earlier?


----------



## Zelc

Mokona said:
			
		

> Since feats, after E6, are like adding levels what if Level Adjustment monsters created a feat debt (that need to be repaid) as part of the Point Buy solution offered earlier?



Well, feats aren't worth as much in E6, so I certainly wouldn't replace the Point Buy adjustment with Feat Debt.  Feat Debt in addition to the PB adjustment could be an idea, but it may be a bit clunky to use.  Which feats would be used to pay off the debt?  Some feats, for instance, can only be taken at level 1.  I /think/ the Point Buy adjustment is fine by itself, if you use the revised one here.


----------



## Scurvy_Platypus

Evilhalfling:

Ummm. I guess you make good points, I don't know. I think you've put an awful lot more thought into those aspects than I have (or want to). I just wanted an explicit starting point for dealing with NPC conversions, other than everyone giving their version of "I just eyeball it, and then modify it based on [whatever arcane gamer thing turns their crank]" I think I'll stick with my approach and see how it goes. If it's a problem, I'll certainly keep your post in mind.


----------



## Evilhalfling

Ryan Stoughton said:
			
		

> We need more 5-feat quick templates.



Okay - obviously I am avoiding tasks at work... 
*Dedicated Crafter * 
Craft item X, Efficent X Crafter, Legendary X Artisan (reduce xp and gold costs by 25%), 
ability training and advancement in Int/Wis/Chr 

*Weapon master: * 
Weapon focus, improved intiatitve, quickdraw 
-and-
Power attack and cleave 
-or-
Expertise and Improved Disarm 
-or-
Dodge and combat reflexes 

*Supernaturally Intense: * 
Special ability focus (+2dc) ability training and advancement(Con or Chr) 
Iron will, Improved toughness


----------



## Xeorsos

I went ahead and developed a Mystic Theurge prestige chain that allowed for a little diversity for your casting classes (just as the Mystic Theurge does).

Mystic Theurge Training [Prestige]
Prerequisites: No other prestige feats, Spellcraft 6 ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 6 ranks, Ability to cast 2nd level Arcane and Divine spells
Benefits: The following skills become class skills for you: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
In addition, choose one arcane and one divine Spellcasting class in which you can cast 2nd level spells.  These classes are treated as having +1 caster level for every 2 Prestige feats you have (including this one).

Theurgic Stamina [Prestige]
Prerequisites: Mystic Theurge Training, no more than 3 feats listing Mystic Theurge as a prerequisite
Benefits: You gain the benefit of Expanded Spell Stamina for one arcane and one divine Spellcasting class in which you can cast 2nd level spells.
You may take this feat multiple times.  It’s effects stack.

Theurgic Knowledge [Prestige]
Prerequisites: Mystic Theurge Training, no more than 3 feats listing Mystic Theurge as a prerequisite
Benefits: You gain the benefit of Expanded Spell Knowledge for one arcane and one divine Spellcasting class in which you can cast 2nd level spells.
You may take this feat multiple times. It’s effects stack.

Spellcasting Pinnacle [Prestige]
Prerequisites: Any 4 feats listing Mystic Theurge Training as a prerequisite
Benefits: Choose a single 3rd level arcane spell and a single 3rd level divine pell available to your Spellcasting classes capable of casting 2nd level spells.  You may cast each spell once per day with a caster level equal to its associated class’s caster level.


----------



## Kunimatyu

Not a terrible idea, though I'd argue that it's quite possible to do a solid MT-type character in E6 already, via Practiced Spellcaster and a caster3/othercaster3 build. 

The most controversial element in your selection of new feats is the one that allows a character to cast one 3rd level spell from each class. You'll want to think about that one very carefully.


----------



## Kunimatyu

My E6 campaign starts tomorrow!

The PCs: (all first level)
Human Cloistered Cleric of Sar(domains: Mind and Repose)
Human Scout
Human Crusader of Sar
Human Druid(or possibly some other PC entirely, the 4th slot is in a bit of flux)

The party has decided that they're from Lemuria - the cleric and crusader were part of the leadership of a church that the Witch-King purged and replaced with cronies; the scout served in the Lemurian military and lost his opportunity for promotion due to the Witch-King's reorganization of its structure. Basically, "find a way to overthrow the Witch-King and restore Lemuria" seems to be the party's primary goal, and I think it'll be an excellent way to kick off the campaign.

The session opens with the PCs about to be hanged by minions of the Witch-King in the central square of Mu's Bed, capital of Lemuria...


----------



## Xeorsos

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Not a terrible idea, though I'd argue that it's quite possible to do a solid MT-type character in E6 already, via Practiced Spellcaster and a caster3/othercaster3 build.
> 
> The most controversial element in your selection of new feats is the one that allows a character to cast one 3rd level spell from each class. You'll want to think about that one very carefully.




I can't say I see a problem with this.  The great thing about E6 isn't achieving 3rd level spells- it's being able to expand it.  Compared to a plain jane wizard 6, the Mystic Theurge prestige build pales in comparison in exactly the same way that the Mystic Theurge does to any straight caster.  

The 1 additional spell per day for each class is mostly a level of appeasement than it is a level of power.  It's one spell, and it can't be expanded like the wizard who's casting 3rd level spells can expand his.  Essentially, you're a character who's got quite a few 2nd level spells and 2 3rd level spells per day- that you'll never be able to change (barring Retraining, which I think is silly).  Even a sorcerer has more versatility at this point, because she would have been able to pick up a few Expanded Spell knowledge feats to beef up her spells known.

I see the 1 3rd level spell per day of each class as a form of finally paying off for taking 2 classes and forfeiting the power of single-classing it up.  However, I can understand where others would have problems with this.  A reasonable solution would be to simply put no limit on how many times a character can take Theurgic Knowledge or Theurgic Stamina.  I would see that as a reasonable trade-off.


----------



## Kunimatyu

Oh, it's not a huge deal, just the one area that's the most problematic. I suspect your MT prestige feats will work just fine.


----------



## Ry

My quiet period revealed: Baby Myriam Elizabeth ("Mia") Stoughton was born yesterday at 9:34 AM.  Baby jumped the gun on us and arrived a month early, but she's 5 lbs 4 oz and wowing the nurses with how well she's doing.  Cheers everybody!!!!!!


----------



## Erekose

Ryan Stoughton said:
			
		

> My quiet period revealed: Baby Myriam Elizabeth ("Mia") Stoughton was born yesterday at 9:34 AM.  Baby jumped the gun on us and arrived a month early, but she's 5 lbs 4 oz and wowing the nurses with how well she's doing.  Cheers everybody!!!!!!





Congratulations!!!

I don't know if she is your first born but if she is relax in the knowledge that being a dad is the best thing possible.

If you have other children then you already know how fantastic it is!


----------



## CanadienneBacon

Wow, you're a dad.  That's great!  Congratulations on the birth of Mia!  Myriam is a nice name.


----------



## Scurvy_Platypus

Congratulations.

And just to stay vaguely on topic ) ):

Last night was the first session of my Everstone game, which is going to be an E8 game. Everyone is starting at 3rd level, and we'll see how things shake out from there. Despite liking EnWorld better for D&D/d20 stuff, I'll be posting an AP over on RPGNet since I don't feel like doing an actual story like all the Story Hour threads seem to do here. AP is mainly going to be an overview of what happened in the game, along with any mechanical considerations/issues I had.

Edit: My AP is here: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=360526


----------



## Will

Quiet period ended. Seriously. 

Grats on multiclassing to Dad1!


----------



## Raven Crowking

Ryan Stoughton said:
			
		

> My quiet period revealed: Baby Myriam Elizabeth ("Mia") Stoughton was born yesterday at 9:34 AM.  Baby jumped the gun on us and arrived a month early, but she's 5 lbs 4 oz and wowing the nurses with how well she's doing.  Cheers everybody!!!!!!




Congrats!

You're going to have a very busy next couple of years.....   

RC


----------



## WhatGravitas

Ryan Stoughton said:
			
		

> My quiet period revealed: Baby Myriam Elizabeth ("Mia") Stoughton was born yesterday at 9:34 AM.  Baby jumped the gun on us and arrived a month early, but she's 5 lbs 4 oz and wowing the nurses with how well she's doing.  Cheers everybody!!!!!!



Congrats! And I'm pretty sure, you'll be a good dad!

Cheers, LT.


----------



## Nytmare

I just threw this idea out to my players for a once over:

When working towards a prestige class, you may ignore any one pre-requisite.  

My thought is that, overall, most of the PRCs we're using (core and Scarred Lands) tend to be accessible at around the 6th level mark, but that the structure you have to build into to pick them up in E6 is a little too strict.  

For the most part, the pre-reqs are all things the player is going to WANT anyway, they all basically make sense for the character to have.  Furthermore, I think that the basic powerlevel is maintained because even if you were to drop say a BAB pre-req, that same PRC is bound to have a skill or feat pre-req that enforces that level requirement.



[EDIT]  

(Holy crap a baby!  Congrats Ry!) 

[/EDIT]


----------



## Mokona

Ryan Stoughton said:
			
		

> Myriam Elizabeth ("Mia") Stoughton



Congratulations and good fortune!  My wife, daughter, son, and I all wish her good health as well.


----------



## Animus

First of all, congrats Ryan!

Second, the reason why I'm posting. In about a week I'm running a one shot using E8 as a basis. The PCs are getting level 8 + 5 feats and an elite attribute array, putting them roughly in EL 9-10 range. I have seven PCs, and am running a dragon-slaying excursion. Any suggestions, particularly for the dragon?


----------



## Ry

I'd pick a dragon around CR 12 to show off what those PCs can really take, but try to create a situation where the PCs have a few different avenues to gain info, do recon, or gain an advantage over the dragon.

I'd suggest having the dragon "trapped" in a cave complex - not in a single room mind you, the dragon can't get out the entrance but can stalk the players through the hive of caverns.  That would make for a wicked fight.  If you have the battle outside then I recommend having the PCs have a few avenues to bring the dragon to the ground.  

Also, PREGENS are a must.  MUST.  Otherwise you won't be playing that day.  8th level + 5 feats takes a while to make.

I repeat: PREGENS ARE A MUST.

Cheers --ry


----------



## Ry

Oh, have you seen my suggestions about improving exposition?  That'd be easy to implement with the pregens you will absolutely totally 100% be making because you love your game and want it to be fun.  

Piratecat had some awesome suggestions for running adventures at cons that are very relevant, but I'm not sure where they are.


----------



## Hrothgar Rannúlfr

Congratulations, Ryan!

I just saw the news and that's a wonderful name for a baby.

Thanks again for E6.  I'm not running an E6 game, right now, but I'm taking a lot of ideas into my current game.


----------



## Whisper72

Congrats on the fatherhood! Know how it is (my son Max came six weeks early at the beginning of march), it is a lot of fun, but little sleep. Kinda like college...


----------



## Animus

Ryan Stoughton said:
			
		

> I'd pick a dragon around CR 12 to show off what those PCs can really take, but try to create a situation where the PCs have a few different avenues to gain info, do recon, or gain an advantage over the dragon.
> 
> I'd suggest having the dragon "trapped" in a cave complex - not in a single room mind you, the dragon can't get out the entrance but can stalk the players through the hive of caverns.  That would make for a wicked fight.  If you have the battle outside then I recommend having the PCs have a few avenues to bring the dragon to the ground.
> 
> Also, PREGENS are a must.  MUST.  Otherwise you won't be playing that day.  8th level + 5 feats takes a while to make.
> 
> I repeat: PREGENS ARE A MUST.
> 
> Cheers --ry




I'm looking at a party of 6 or 7, so I'll be throwing an adult green at them (CR 13). The cave complex is exactly what I was thinking. And for the record, most of them have completed their characters already. I told them we need to hit the ground running, so no PC creation at the table. 

I like the improved exposition idea; that's right up my alley. Thanks for the input.


----------



## Ry

Also from my sig, look at the TRAP method: Find ways to add rewards, problems, and assets in addition to the threat inside the cave system.  In fact, you could probably port over quite a few of the ideas I have in the TRAP thread itself (look for stuff about the manticore lair)


----------



## PoeticJustice

Ryan Stoughton said:
			
		

> Also from my sig, look at the TRAP method: Find ways to add rewards, problems, and assets in addition to the threat inside the cave system.  In fact, you could probably port over quite a few of the ideas I have in the TRAP thread itself (look for stuff about the manticore lair)




you get that thing I sent you?


----------



## Ry

Yep.  It's excellent, and I could definitely see using this with an Eberron E6 game.  

The only reason I haven't posted it here is it's not OGL friendly (some reprints from Eberron, right?).  Feel free to tack it on here though.


----------



## Ry

What I'm thinking for E6 right now:  I do think some kind of 4e E6 version will be a good game.  I want to play that way - maybe E6 will mean new powers/talents and feats instead of just feats - and I imagine that when the 4e SRD finally comes out I'll be trimming it down to make a handbook for E6 (might be E7, E10, whatever).


----------



## Ry

I sure wouldn't mind hearing about other peoples' E6 games - even if you're at a stage of "Hmm... my players are doing THIS right now but I don't know what to do next" feel free to post it here.


----------



## Ry

Finally, you may or may not have seen my new project, a wide open gaming product that's geared at building a systemless rpg supplement.  The goal is actually somewhat similar to the Dictionary of Mu, and if you ever followed my Last Age threads you'll see a lot of familiar things popping up.  Check it out:

http://www.greathundred.org


----------



## joela

*Eberron E6 Begins*



			
				Ryan Stoughton said:
			
		

> I sure wouldn't mind hearing about other peoples' E6 games - even if you're at a stage of "Hmm... my players are doing THIS right now but I don't know what to do next" feel free to post it here.




Sunday ran the first game of my E6 Eberron campaign. This was also the first game I've GM'd for nearly 20 years. 

Issues that I discovered with E6:

Though all PC were at 6th level, their first encounter faced by the PCs was an CR 12 dragon. They couldn't even dent it and I was very loose with the rules. Fortunately, it was a flashback scene but I realized that the players were not experienced yet to run PCs to fight dragons. Their PCs, too, were also not equipped to fight them as well.

One player wants his PC to have enough Improved Precise Shot. Since the perquisites include BAB +11, I'd like advice on how to make it viable for him.

I'm using a variant of E6. Besides all being 6th level, all the PCs start with zero experience points. They gain a feat after 5k as per standard E6 rules. 
However, once they've accumulated enough experience to qualify for 7th level, they become E7 characters and their experience points are reset to zero. I'm not yet sure how to adjust their challenges; most likely, I'll continue to wing it. Current plan to confront the PCs with lots of mooks (at least 5 per PC) to slow them down, traps, puzzles, misdirection, with 1-2 major opponents with CR equal to PCs+2. I'm currently using a heavily modified version of the official Eberron adventure, Whispers of the Vampire Blade and the main Big Bad seems to be the right level.


----------



## Animus

I ran an E8 one-shot Friday night, and it went very well.

It was a short dungeon crawl and dragon encounter. There were 7 PCs, level 8 + 5 feats, and a level 7 cohort (close cohort feat from Dragon magazine). I put them up against a adult green dragon (CR 13), built for melee combat (8 melee attacks in a full round) and big breath weapon madness (clinging breath and maximize breath: potential of 108 points of acid damage over 2 rounds, ouch!)

In the end, I held back just a little. I used Clinging Breath but not Maximize, and still nearly killed the cleric cohort. In total I put three people negative and severely hurt a lot more before they put it down. It was great fun.

The players enjoyed the versatility that having the additional feats gave, and my spell casters knew the 4th level spells fairly well, so their turns were fast too. This system really works.


----------



## Hairfoot

Sorry I'm late to the party.  I can't believe I've missed this so long - it looks like everything I wanted 3E to be.

Just so I have this straight: up until 6th level, characters progress according to the standard PHB XP charts, and receive feats and skills at standard rates.  After that, they receive a feat for each 5000XP, but no other class-level benefits?


----------



## Ry

Welcome to the party Hairfoot - yep, you've got it exactly.


----------



## Cerulean_Wings

Hi all, I'm about to start an E6 campaign in Rpol, but since it's my first low-magic campaign I'm forced to ask a couple of questions regarding treasure and items:

- Is there a formula for determining treasure for a low magic campaign? Such as counting the encounter as being 1 lower (an encounter of ECL 4 would count as ECL 3 for treasure), for example

- What items should be given to the players in order to keep them feeling like they're progressing in the "material" sense, but without giving it all at once, thus not having much else to give as rewards? This applies to magic items and mundane items alike

- What sort of "immaterial" rewards are there for the players, other than the trust of the people they help?

All assistance is appreciated   

PS: If anyone is interested in playing in the E6 campaign via Rpol, go here: http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=27738&gn=DnD+3.5+E6+-+The+path+to+greatness&date=1194531114

If you like it, give me a request to join


----------



## Eidalac

I'm currently running the Red Hand of Doom with E6.  In place of magic weapons and armor I've been using the alternative masterwork system found in the Black Company Campaign Setting.

Roughly, the best masterwork item in that system comes out just around the power of a +3 weapon, so it can replace the bulk of the magic items you'd normally see.  I'm still using standard magic items for other types, just limiting the CL that's around.

Also, I found a very nice Rod in one of the Scared Land books, which has 5 charges a day which can be used to cast any one of the 5-6 spells in it.  I retooled it into a staff for the wizard, and I plan on using it as a template for all other staves, as the basic mechanic is, I think, very much in line with the feel of E6.


----------



## mfrench

I am currently trying to run an E6 PbP, finishing up recruiting in this thread.  One of the players wants to try a Vow of Poverty monk.  I'm not really familiar with VoP.  Does anybody have experience with it in E6, or has anyone given any thought to how it would work.

And by the way, mine isn't the first E6 PbP, there are several of them out there already.


----------



## Hairfoot

Regarding magic items, those who haven't visited Crystalkeep.com will find PDFs of items listed by creator level.  Useful for selecting treasure.


----------



## Theine

Hello.

This is a very interesting variant. But what classes can it support?


----------



## yonagi

It should support them all - my current campaign allows prestige classes as base classes provided the prerequisites can be fulfilled by the 6th level.


----------



## Ry

The short answer is: All of them.  

My experience, and this is echoed on most boards, is that D&D is VERY well balanced at 6th level (or in the 6th-8th range).  I haven't tested a lot of extraneous classes (although warlocks pop up frequently in my games).  So the long answer is:  All of them, especially if you have a good selection of feats.

If you want to carefully select classes for a particular game for style or setting reasons (i.e. a low magic campaign with only bards as casters) that works really well too.  But you don't need to limit yourself that way for balance reasons.  E6 works!


----------



## Theine

I`d just like to know what non-base classes were tested? For example, Healers and Shadowcasters.

Also, will every class need hand-tailored feats?


----------



## Ry

We haven't tested those classes specifically but someone else might chime in.  But they were built to balance to other character classes in the 1-6 range, so I highly doubt you would have any problems.  The classes don't need hand-tailored feats - in fact, my playtests occured before they were developed.  They were created largely in response to concerns that people came up with as E6 became more known-about.


----------



## Ry

I've said this before, and I realized I should say it again now:  Class balance around level 6 is very solid - everybody's good in their role but not taking over anyone else's spotlight or making other characters irrelevant.  It's easy to get caught trying to exhaust different possibilities with mental experiments but I think the best thing to do is whip up a few characters and get going at the game table.


----------



## Theine

Another question: 

Anyone tried to evaluate the end-game character of E6 - level 6 who have all possible feats? How powerful it would be?


----------



## Ry

That's an impossible question, but ... hmm.. since they can take Toughness repeatedly they have an infinite number of hit points, but limited hit dice and theoretically well-limited saves.  I'd bet a high-level save-or-die spell would take them out for sure.  So I would guess (and this really has nothing to do with actual play of E6) level 15 or so would be the max max max on the infinite curve.  But it's a really really weird level 15.


----------



## Slife

Psionic characters might edge out others due to how that psionic feat that increases PP stacks (semi-exponentially).


----------



## Theine

Ryan Stoughton said:
			
		

> That's an impossible question, but ... hmm.. since they can take Toughness repeatedly they have an infinite number of hit points, but limited hit dice and theoretically well-limited saves.  I'd bet a high-level save-or-die spell would take them out for sure.  So I would guess (and this really has nothing to do with actual play of E6) level 15 or so would be the max max max on the infinite curve.  But it's a really really weird level 15.




Isn`t it a good reason to limit Toughness?

Anyway, let`s not talk about infinity. How long can you play a char in E6 until he`ll start to edge from "realistic" into "superhero'? How many feats?


----------



## Ry

Theine said:
			
		

> Isn`t it a good reason to limit Toughness?  Anyway, let`s not talk about infinity. How long can you play a char in E6 until he`ll start to edge from "realistic" into "superhero'? How many feats?



I've never seen or heard of a game that went long enough to break that limit.  I think that over time characters predominantly become more diverse instead of just more powerful, although partially I think that's just the result of the kind of culture around the table that E6 encourages, rather than the rules themselves.  

Taking the same feat over and over and aover is really boring, and I think that keeps it from being a real game issue.  In my opinion the mental experiments take precious time from getting your game ready and actually sitting down at the table.  If I had a crown over the kingdom of E6, it would have "GO PLAY" inscribed on it in Ancient Greek or something.  If you run into problems along the way, they will appear gradually and I'd be happy to suggest ways to correct them.  E6 works, and it works on timelines that are as long as I've seen or heard of in actual play.


----------



## Theine

Hey, I`m not criticizing you or something. I`m a newcomer to D&D world, and just theorizing a little...

How would you address a problem of a veteran fighter (in E6) who wants to learn magic? Will it be multi-classing? Gestalt? New feats? Will it make him overpowered?


----------



## Ry

Oh, I completely know the feeling - I'm just saying (from experience) that you can spend a lot of valuable prep time worrying about stuff that might happen.

For the fighter, there's a lot of options.  Again, it depends on what you want to allow.  There's a lot of "get 3 spell-like abilities, cast once per day each" feats, and I think there's a good deal you can do with that.  If you want fighters to be able to learn magic you can definitely provide feats that do things like "Caster Training: You get 0 0th and 1st level spells, so if you have a bonus from intelligence you can cast first a level spell once a day" 

Just like with Gestalt characters, characters with abilities outside their role aren't much more powerful than core characters because the most valuable thing in the game is actions, and the most effective way to spend that action is to find an opportunity to do the thing you do best.  

In my experience, players hit 6th level, grab a few feats that really make them shine, and then start seeing opportunities for taking roleplaying feats.  An example would be a player who had a wizard taking Martial Weapon Proficiency (longsword) - because he was knighted and given a sword as a symbol of that honor.  Once players absorb the fact that the power level is more controlled, they realize they don't need to rush to tweak every tiny piece of their character.  At least, that's my take.


----------



## Theine

What about Prestige classes? I see someone mentioned using them as base classes. It really broaden the possibilities, but will they be balanced ?


----------



## Ry

I allowed Prestige classes just as the core rules say - usually that meant just 1 level of a prestige class.  Some others are trying using prestige classes as base classes.  I think there are some lingering issues but at the scale you're working at you can get away with it.  Somebody said E6 was less crash-prone than other d20 because problems don't get multiplied - I think that's as much a function of the lower power level of items than anything else.


----------



## Zelc

Slife said:
			
		

> Psionic characters might edge out others due to how that psionic feat that increases PP stacks (semi-exponentially).



And Psionic Body so they get stacking HP bonuses at the same time.  I've addressed this in the Balancing E6 thread.


----------



## DiamondB

Okay, just popping in to say that I absolutely love E6.  I've seen it floating around now for awhile, but never really delved into it.  I'm sorry it's taken me this long.  E6 is exactly what I am looking for and I will be using it in my next campaign and hopefully in many campaigns to follow.


----------



## Ry

Welcome to E6 DiamondB!  I'm glad it's a hit!


----------



## modus666

*e6 dragonmech*

i'm currently running a game in the 3rd party dragonmech setting and feel e6 is a perfect fir for it.  i'll post some thoughts on it after i get it going


----------



## Ry

Oh, sweet.  I always wondered about Dragonmech with E6.  That could be AWESOME.


----------



## modus666

*link to dragonmech e6 discussion*

here's a link to our ongoing dragonmech e6 discussion at the goodman games forums:

Dragonmech e6

i think there's some good ideas popping up there.


----------



## Ry

Heh.  "Now we're cooking with coal!"

Rock. On.

I'm soon going to be running a new E6 game online, using it as a baseline to test the new version of the Raising the Stakes rules.


----------



## skippy_the_witch

I am running a pathfinder game for E8.  So far, we are only in the first module, so no different from any other game, except that some of the feat choices folks are making are different than I have noticed in past games.  I prefer E8 (with blocking a few spell choices) than E6.  We will see how it works out after the third module, and I will let folks know.  My players are ALL for this.

skippy


----------



## Emryys

Ryan Stoughton said:
			
		

> I'm soon going to be running a new E6 game online




Cool... What format* are you gonna be using?

*VGT, Chat, PbP, etc...


----------



## Ry

Emryys said:
			
		

> Cool... What format* are you gonna be using?
> 
> *VGT, Chat, PbP, etc...



Skype and Maptool (from RPTools) actually.  Maptool is the program I've been waiting for - doesn't get bogged down in itself, it does a simulated tabletop and doesn't try to be anything else.


----------



## Ry

My 3,512th post will be my last on EN World at least through to the end of 2008.  If you have any questions about E6 or my other hacks, please feel free to e-mail me.

I have really enjoyed bringing E6 out of the depths, and I want to thank everyone who's tried E6, Raising the Stakes, and crazy rules by other designers for getting out there and making the rules serve your game.  New editions and new business models don't change this hobby - you do.

See you around,
Ryan Stoughton


----------



## Evilhalfling

Thats too bad Ryan, E6 is just a lovely Idea, and I have enjoyed tinkering with it. 
I wonder if you are taking a  year off enworld, off gaming or what?  
Quite a new years resolution for someone who has been here since 2002.
Anyway good luck to you and your family.


----------



## Will

Take care, Ryan, and thanks bunches!

Give the tot tickles from us.


----------



## modus666

*question about expanding spellcasting abilities*

there are serverl feats as presented in "complete arcane" which allow the spellcaster taking the feat to either learn an additional spell of his next-to-highest level known, or gain a spell slot of his next-to-highest level.  these feats can be taken multiple times.

how would these interact in an e6 environment?  should they be limited or disallowed?  thoughts?


----------



## Epic Meepo

modus666 said:
			
		

> there are serverl feats as presented in "complete arcane" which allow the spellcaster taking the feat to either learn an additional spell of his next-to-highest level known, or gain a spell slot of his next-to-highest level.  these feats can be taken multiple times.
> 
> how would these interact in an e6 environment?  should they be limited or disallowed?  thoughts?



Well, looks like I'm showing up late to the e6 party, what with the creator being on hiatus, but I'd still like to take a stab at that question:

Since the next-to-highest spell level is always 2nd and caster level is always 6th, I can't see a ton of extra spell slots being much more unbalancing than Scribe Scroll or Craft Wand. Even in e6, epic characters shouldn't have much trouble regularly paying for scrolls and wands. In a way, those items already provide the equivalent of extra spell slots.

On the other hand, I was thinking it might make sense to rule that e6 characters cannot take the same feat twice in a row. Or, if you're a stricter GM, maybe they can't take the same feat more than six times. (I picked six because it's e6, not e-something else.)


----------



## knight_isa

modus666 said:
			
		

> there are serverl feats as presented in "complete arcane" which allow the spellcaster taking the feat to either learn an additional spell of his next-to-highest level known, or gain a spell slot of his next-to-highest level.  these feats can be taken multiple times.
> 
> how would these interact in an e6 environment?  should they be limited or disallowed?  thoughts?




I don't think that they should be limited at all.  A boatload of 2nd level spells isn't going to change the world, even in E6.  Given that some of the suggested "capstone feats" from the first post grant a spell known or slot of the character's *highest* level, it would seem that other think that a boatload of 3rd level spells wont shake things up too much, either.


----------



## Thaniel

I thought I'd ask in here since E6 discussion is where I first saw the link.  There was some  website written up that showed how everyone on Earth is at best 5th level (and that's the top of the top of the top).  Anyone know that link?


----------



## Slife

Thaniel said:
			
		

> I thought I'd ask in here since E6 discussion is where I first saw the link.  There was some  website written up that showed how everyone on Earth is at best 5th level (and that's the top of the top of the top).  Anyone know that link?



I seriously doubt that.

Disguise has a -25 modifier to "Change height and/or weight 11% to 25%".  A fat suit is a  masterwork tool for increasing your apparent weight, so at maximum you get a +2 circumstance bonus from it.  Thus, anybody who can convincingly look like they weigh more than they do while wearing a fat suit has to have at least 15 ranks in disguise, 5 ranks in bluff, skill focus(disguise) and the deceitful feat.

This assumes, of course, that nobody else has any ranks in spot.


----------



## ruleslawyer

Where's that rule about Disguise? I can't find it anywhere.

The article that Thaniel is referencing does make some pretty compelling arguments about how skills in D&D stack up against skills in the real world. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Imp

The rule on Disguise is, of course, an epic skill use, as the thick coating of fail plastered over it should clearly denote.

Epic rogues walk among us.


----------



## Azurecobalt

A friend of mine is starting an E6 campaign that will incorporate psionics (Expanded Psionics Handbook and Complete Psionic) as well as standard 3.5 stuff. Here's my question:

Someone has posted capstone feats for the various PHB classes (to encourage players to take all six levels when that's sometimes not advantageous, such as the Barbarian). What would some good capstone feats be for the various psionic classes?

Thanks!


----------



## Nytmare

Azurecobalt said:
			
		

> What would some good capstone feats be for the various psionic classes?



This is straight guesswork on my part since I've never actually played with 3rd Ed psionics, and I only have the Psionincs Handbook, but my gut feeling is that they would grab one extra psionic combat mode for going straight 6 in either Psion or Psychic Warrior.

I'm assuming that there are other core Psionic classes somewhere, yes?


----------



## Stalker0

Resurrecting this thread to state my group is going to give E6 a try. If anyone have any good suggestions from experience let me know.


----------



## doghead

I'm about to start a pbp game here that is loosely E9'ish. As the characters are 2nd level, its not going to have much impact on the game. Mostly it is guide for me for the NPC characters.

I liked JA's article. It really helped me adjust my perceptions so that I wasn't fighting the system so much. I've edged the upper limit up a little to give the characters a bit more room for growth. In short, the article helped me settle on the lower levels as my 'sweet spot'. E6 provides a nice way to do this.

doghead
aka thotd


----------



## Asurya

quote *Nytmare:* This is straight guesswork on my part since I've never actually played with 3rd Ed psionics, and I only have the Psionincs Handbook, but my gut feeling is that they would grab one extra psionic combat mode for going straight 6 in either Psion or Psychic Warrior.

but the (horrible) system of combat mode has disappeared in the _golden_ XPH!

@*Azurecobalt*: I think the power increase is already managed via _Overchannel_ (and _Talented_), and some have spotted a loophole using _Psionic body_ and then going _Psionic talent_ all the way (thus increasing PP/day exponentially and HP linearly to an extent _Toughness_ user only can match)... and provided a patch for that.
As for the Wizard, I think giving them a single 4th power, perhaps with more limitation (but less so than the std way, i.e. Incantations) will do.


----------



## CleverNickName

Wow...I can't believe that I missed out on this thread for so long.  Just from reading the intro and the two .PDF files that came with it, I can see already that this will be the baseline from which all future house rules will be measured.    

This is absolutely brilliant.

I am running an online 3.5E game right now with my "main" gaming group, and everyone is high level and loving it.  When that campaign closes (probably in another year), the characters will be around 25th level or so.  It is a lot of fun, but there are times when it feels a lot like playing Quake in god mode.  Fun for them, but a lot of work for me.

Well, this weekend I am going to start gaming with a second group of folks here in town, and I am totally going to pitch this system to the group.  It sounds like everything we have been looking for: memorable encounters, sensible power levels, lots of feats, lots of Awesome.  I'll check back in every now and then to let you know how things are going.


----------



## modus666

*thoughts on e6 and stat enhancing items*

i know the E6 community has had a bit of a slowdown since ryan stopped posting here, but my own e6 campaign carries on and so should this discussion!   

anyhoo.  after a long and thorough review of the magic items in both the Magic Item Compendium and the DMG (which are our two primary sources now) i discovered something i bit unnerving...

even the lowest level stat enhancing items are out of reach in e6.  ie, gaunltets of ogre power are an exception, but gloves of dexterity +2, etc.  all the other +2 items have caster levels too high to easily create.  im not sure why the gauntlets of ogre power are different than the others... strength being a stat just as likely to see frequent use as any other stat doesnt seem to place the others at any sort of premium best as i can tell...

now i know that any item of +4 or higher should be out of the question, but do +2 items present much of a problem you think in terms of balance?  i personally dont think so.  

so here's the question.  do you think it is best to a) read as written an only allow those items with a caster level of 6 or less and be done with it (gauntlets of ogre power anyone?) b) create some kind of specialized capstone feat that will allow item crafters to create these coveted items, perhaps with a slightly increased cost? c)toss the requirements  and let them be crafted, but restriced to +2 items only.

it can be noted that there are quite a few lower level items in the magic item compendium that can allow the user to do some special things related to stats without actually boosting the stat, rather cheaply, (brute gauntlets, boots of the acrobat), and so disallowing the stat boosters wouldnt be critical, especially for those who have access to the MIC, but many characters would rather just get a simple stat boost.

thoughts, comments?


----------



## Woas

One question I have is why did Ryan Stoughton stop posting here? I hope it's because of nothing serious...  :\


----------



## Khuxan

Woas said:
			
		

> One question I have is why did Ryan Stoughton stop posting here? I hope it's because of nothing serious...  :\




He had a baby and made a New Year's Resolution not to post for at least a year.


----------



## Evilhalfling

modus --  IMO one of the points of e6 is to avoid everyone decked out in 2-5 stat boosting items.  You can HR it, but if those items are in an E6 game then they will become mandatory, and every competent PC/NPC will obtain a set of them. 

The reason Ogres Gauntlets have a lower caster level is that they were the only stat booster avalible in 1st/2nd ed. As a concession they were made slightly easier to make.   I am okay with them being the only possible one in e6. 

The MIC items can be more specifically useful for certain characters, but they do not increase the power of everyone across the board. I mean everyone benefits from +2 wis, +2 con.  I ignore most of the capstone feats but I like the 2 feats for a +2 to ability, this seems like working advancement.  

I also did a list of DMG items possible with 3rd level spells, it should be in the first few posts.

How is your game going?  most posters only reported on one-shots.


----------



## Woas

Ah. I knew about his newborn. Didn't know posting was that sort of an addiction that needed a resolution. 

I wonder if they have patches or gum for it.



			
				Khuxan said:
			
		

> He had a baby and made a New Year's Resolution not to post for at least a year.


----------



## Scurvy_Platypus

Evilhalfling said:
			
		

> How is your game going?  most posters only reported on one-shots.




I've been running my game as an E8. Started at level 3 and then jumped them to 8 since I'm looking at moving in a couple of months, and the party wanted to go through Expedition to the Barrier Peaks. So I've got about... 7 months?... running the world as an E8 kinda place. It's been just fine for us.

Once I move, I'd like to find another group and restart the experiment. Then again, with the whole 4E hoopla happening, I'm not sure how likely that's going to be.



			
				Woas said:
			
		

> Didn't know posting was that sort of an addiction that needed a resolution.




I think Ryan did that because he wanted to focus on actually playing the game and developing his ideas, instead of simply posting stuff on the boards. Forums seem to have this peculiar thing where there's a lot of people talking about stuff, with a much smaller number of people actually _doing_. Depending on the kind of personality a person has, it can be easy to lose yourself in the whole talking thing and forget what your goal for hanging out on the forum was originally.


----------



## joela

*E6 Gestalt PCs*

I'm sure it's been discussed. Could someone please point out the post? Thanks!


----------



## modus666

Evilhalfling said:
			
		

> modus --  IMO one of the points of e6 is to avoid everyone decked out in 2-5 stat boosting items.  You can HR it, but if those items are in an E6 game then they will become mandatory, and every competent PC/NPC will obtain a set of them.
> 
> How is your game going?  most posters only reported on one-shots.




In my experience, most players will obtain the one essential stat booster for their class.  The mages will get the headband of int, rogues get gloves of dex etc.  I honestly cant remember a time when every character had their slots filled with stat boosting items in my games.  But you do have a point i suppose.  it just seemed to me that items requiring only 2nd level spells to produce should be that hard to come by (shrug).

My dragonmech e6 game is going pretty well.  my group is at 6+2 now i think.  so far they've been forced to diversify a little bit, 2 of the characters having taken feats that increase their ability to use their mech's weapons even though they arent primary pilots hehehe.


----------



## amethal

I'm considering using E6 to run some Necromancer Games modules.

I think it might be a good fit for their campaign world, given the amount of running away they expect PCs to do. (As opposed to the "we are superheroes, we can do what we want" vibe you sometimes get in "normal" D&D.)

Has anybody tried this?


----------



## modus666

amethal said:
			
		

> I'm considering using E6 to run some Necromancer Games modules.
> 
> I think it might be a good fit for their campaign world, given the amount of running away they expect PCs to do. (As opposed to the "we are superheroes, we can do what we want" vibe you sometimes get in "normal" D&D.)
> 
> Has anybody tried this?




are you referring to scarred lands?

it would certainly work.  though you will definitely want to make clear that the party will not have access to some of the 'big toys' that setting presents.

i personally am running e6 in the goodman games drgaonmech setting and its working rather well so far.  it justifies the need for big robots to battle the big threats, since you cant just ask the level 20 wizard to deal with it.


----------



## Derro

I'm trying things out in Ravenloft. They've just started out so I won't see the effects for a while. One thing I'm going to do which is counter to the E6 philosophy is leave the Darklords as is and not reduce them to E6+X. There unique status in Ravenloft warrants this I feel.

I think that the low power level will heighten the horror in the setting because the PCs can't think to themselves that they will one day be on par with the powerful evils of the setting.


----------



## modus666

Derro said:
			
		

> I'm trying things out in Ravenloft. They've just started out so I won't see the effects for a while. One thing I'm going to do which is counter to the E6 philosophy is leave the Darklords as is and not reduce them to E6+X. There unique status in Ravenloft warrants this I feel.
> 
> I think that the low power level will heighten the horror in the setting because the PCs can't think to themselves that they will one day be on par with the powerful evils of the setting.




very true, E6 characters would never be able to realistically take on strahd without some sort of special preparation, deus ex machina, or other such dramatic effect.  but remember someone may have that as a goal, so it should be something that could be done just not in the traditional, kick the door in once we hit 20th level and PWN him sorta way


----------



## modus666

*prestige feat trees*

i am compiling my own little E6 document for my dragonmech players and was taking a closer look at the blackguard prestige feats that were presented many pages back, for reference sake i will copy them at the bottom of my post.  i had a few concerns

1) does anyone else feel that the "fallen from grace" feat's mechanic is a bit bulky.  i think it might be easier to do feat or class retraining (as presented in the PHB 2) if one were a fallen paladin than to bother with this mechanic

2) does anyone else feel that the "fiendish servant" feat is a bit out of scope?  perhaps it could be boiled down a bit more?

3) i think the "blessing of darkness" feat could be easily reworded to be something like this... _Benefit: Choose one spell  from the following list: cause fear, corrupt weapon, cure light wounds, doom, inflict light wounds, magic weapon, and summon monster I (evil creatures only); you may cast this spell once per day, with a caster level equal to the numer of blackguard "blessing of darkness" feats you posess (up to a maximum of 6th level caster); this feat may be taken multiple times, each time choosing another spell from this list_ 

this way the blackguard could have a more varied selection of spells without allowing any one spell to be used very often.

any thoughts?  i've generally been of the opinion that most prestige classes could be boiled down to 4 or 5 feats but the blackguard tends to break that mold a bit with its varied abilities.

===================
blackguard prestige feats (before any modification)
===================
Blackguard Training [Prestige]
You have begun training as a blackguard.
Prerequisite: No other prestige feats, evil alignment, must have made peaceful contact with an evil outsider, character level 6th, skills: Hide 5 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 2 ranks, feats:Cleave, Improved Sunder, Power Attack
Benefit: The following skills become class skills for you: Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (religion), Profession, and Ride.
In addition, you gain an Aura of Evil. The power of the aura (see the detect evil spell) is equal to the number of prestige feats you posses.
Special: You may not gain this feat if you already possess any other prestige feats.

Sunder the Righteous [Prestige]
Your devotion to darkness has granted you power to harm the followers of the light.
Prerequisite: Blackguard Training, Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Sunder, character level 6th.
Benefit: Once per day, you may make a single melee attack against a good aligned target. You add your Charisma modifier (if positive) to the attack roll and deal 1 extra point of damage per prestige feat you posses, plus any bonuses from high Strength or magical effects that normally apply. If you accidentally use this ability feat against a target that is not good, the feat has no effect but is still used up for that day.

Inquisition [Prestige]
You have gained the ability to sense the righteous wherever they may lurk.
Prerequisite: Blackguard Training, Hide 4 ranks, character level 6th.
Benefit: You may use detect good as a spell like ability at will. In addition, any melee weapon you wield is considered evil aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction

Fallen From Grace [Prestige]
The lords of corruption favor those who were once pure.
Prerequisite: Blackguard Training, one or more paladin levels, character level 6th.
Benefit: You immediately gain a number of prestige feats equal to your paladin level/2. For example, a 3rd-level paladin/3rd-level cleric would gain 1 extra prestige feat upon gaining this feat while a 5th-level paladin/1st-level rogue would gain 2.
Special: This feat adds to the number of prestige feats you posses as normal in addition to any added by virtue of this feat. Feats gained by this feat do not count towards the limit of prestige feats you may learn.

Lord of Despair [Prestige]
Your body has become a conduit for negative energy.
Prerequisite: Blackguard Training, two or more prestige feats, Knowledge (religion) 2 ranks, character level 6th.
Benefit: You may command or rebuke undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. You command undead as would a cleric who’s level equals the number of prestige feats you posses -2.
In addition, the dark energy you wield envelopes you in a malign aura that causes enemies within 10 feet to take a -2 penalty on all saving throws.

Fiendish Servant [Prestige]
Your dark masters have granted you an ally from the lower planes.
Prerequisite: Blackguard Training, three or more prestige feats, Knowledge (religion) 2 ranks, character level 6th.
Benefit: You acquire a fiendish servant that serves you as a guardian, helper, or mount. You may choose from the following: fiendish bat, cat, dire rat, horse, pony, raven, or toad. The servant further gains HD and special abilities based on the number of prestige feats you posses. 
Five or less prestige feats grant your fiendish servant +2 HD, +1 Natural Armor, +1 Strength, an Intelligence score of 6, and the following special abilities: empathic link, improved evasion, share saving throws, and share spells. Six or more prestige feats grant your fiendish servant +4 HD, +3 Natural Armor, +2 Strength, an Intelligence score of 7, and the ability to speak with you.
Special: You may only have one fiendish servant at a time. Should your fiendish servant die, you may call for another one after a year and a day.

Blessing of Darkness [Prestige]
The dark masters you serve have invested a spark of the divine in you.
Prerequisite: Wisdom 12+, Blackguard Training, three or more prestige feats, Knowledge (religion) 2 ranks, character level 6th.
Benefit: You may cast one spell per day from the following list: cause fear, corrupt weapon, cure light wounds, doom, inflict light wounds, magic weapon, and summon monster I (evil creatures only).
In addition, you gain a bonus to your saving throws equal to your Charisma modifier (if positive).


----------



## dragonlordofpoondari

I miss rycanada.

<sniffle>

It's cool that E6 has taken on a life of its own. Game companies should hire this guy.

Rock on, E6ers.


----------



## S'mon

I think if I run 3e again I'll do it E10 with half XP, that should make something a lot like OD&D in terms of power distribution and magic level, ie there are 5th level spells and 9th level characters are 'Lords'.  I think I'll use different NPC demographics though, with typical experienced NPCs around 3rd level.


----------



## modus666

*arcane archer E6*

Arcane Archer Prestige Feats

[[GM note:  this class was easy to convert to a prestige tree, the death arrow effect was intentionally left out as it was perhaps a bit too powerful when compared to the other E6 prestige classes (assasin being the exception, but, hey, they’re assasins).]]

Arcane Archer Training [prestige]
You have begun training as an arcane archer
Prerequisite: No other prestige feats, Race: Elf or half-elf, Character Level 6, Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow), ability to cast first level arcane spells 
Benefit: The following skills become class skills for you: Craft (Int), Hide (Dex). Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Use Rope (Dex). 
In Addition, you gain the arcane archer’s Enhance arrow +1 ability.
Special: You may not gain this feat if you already possess any other prestige feats.

Arcane Arrow [prestige]
You have learned the secret of penetrating mundane barriers with your enchanted arrows
Prerequisite:  Arcane Archer Training, 1 other prestige feat, Spellcraft 8 ranks, Spot 4 ranks, Knowledge (planes) 4 ranks
Benefit: you gain the Arcane Archer’s ‘phase arrow’ special ability.

Empowered Arrows [prestige]
Your arrows become more enchanted
Prerequisite:  Arcane Archer Training, 1 other prestige feat, Spellcraft 8 ranks, Know (arcane) 8 ranks
Benefit: you gain the Arcane Archer’s ‘Enchance Arrow +2’ ability

Flight Mastery [prestige]
You have learned to control your enchanted arrows path in mid-flight.
Prerequisite: Arcane Archer Training, Spot 8 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks
Benefit:  you gain the arcane archer’s ‘seeker arrow’ special ability

Hail of Arrows [prestige]
You have learned how to fire at multiple targets in one action
Prerequisite: Arcane Archer Training, 2 other prestige feats Spot 8 ranks
Benefit:  you gain the Arcane Archer’s ‘hail of arrows’ ability

War-Arrow Training [prestige]
You have learned how to  place an area spell upon an arrow.
Prerequisite: Arcane Archer Training, Spellcraft 4 ranks, Know (arcane) 4 ranks
Benefit: you gain the arcane archer’s ‘imbue arrow’ special ability.


----------



## Quartz

modus666 said:
			
		

> In my experience, most players will obtain the one essential stat booster for their class.  The mages will get the headband of int, rogues get gloves of dex etc.  I honestly cant remember a time when every character had their slots filled with stat boosting items in my games.




How do you stop wizards gradually creating Belts of Magnificence +4?  And dominating matters with wands they've crafted? (I've asked this in the House Rules forum too).


----------



## Scurvy_Platypus

modus666 said:
			
		

> i've generally been of the opinion that most prestige classes could be boiled down to 4 or 5 feats...




Every so often I come across someone talking about doing something like making prestige classes into feat trees. I'm pretty sure there's at least one version of the Arcane Archer floating around in early Enworld posts that's already been converted over.

If you're really into doing that sort of thing, you might look over Classically Modern. You can read about the base idea here: http://www.freewebs.com/merlinsworkshop/FriPreview11.htm
And you can download bits here:
http://www.freewebs.com/merlinsworkshop/index.htm

The Arcane Archer was folded into a class along with a couple of others and is called the Warmancer. You can read the entry for it in the CM2-4 doc. It's the very last page. CM3 covers the Feats, and CM4 covers the Talents.

I'm not saying that you'd be able to directly use Classically Modern to achieve what you're trying to do, but it might be a handy starting point for you.

Myself? I'd go in a different direction. I'd simply make the prestige class a standalone class and go from there. At 6 levels of development, it's not like it's going to be _that_ hard to make the Prestige Classes play nice with the others.

But as I've said before, I like E6 for different reasons than a lot of people so that idea probably won't fly.


----------



## Shazman

Has anyone made any assassain prestige feats?


----------



## modus666

*assain feats*

yes there were some posted several pages back, i have taken them and modified them a bit for my own campaign use (all credit due to the OP), i'll post my version here, the original versions can be easily located further back in this thread.

Assassin Prestige Feats 

Assassin Training [Prestige]
You have begun training as an assassin.
Prerequisite: No other prestige feats, evil alignment, must kill someone for no other reason than to become an assassins, character level 6th, Disguise 4 ranks, Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks.
Benefit: The following skills become class skills for you: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device, and Use Rope.
In addition, you gain the sneak attack ability which deals an additional +1d6 points of damage against an opponent that is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC. This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. This bonus on damage stacks with sneak attacks from another source.
Special: You may not gain this feat if you already possess any other prestige feats.

Assassin’s Guile [Prestige]
Your training as an assassin has been augmented by arcane study.
Prerequisite: Intelligence 12+, Assassin Training, Spellcraft 4 ranks, character level 6th.
Benefit: Choose one spells from the following list: Disguise Self, Detect Poison, Feather Fall, Ghost Sound, Jump, Obscuring Mist, Sleep, and True Strike. You may cast this spell once per day with a caster level equal to the number of prestige feats you possess (maximum of 6th level caster).  This feat may be chosen multiple times, each time choosing a new spell from the above list.

Assassin’s Trade [Prestige]
You have learned how to quickly bring death to the unaware.
Prerequisite: Assassin Training, two or more prestige feats, Disguise 4 ranks, Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks character level 6th.
Benefit: You gain the Death Attack special ability.

Poison Use [Prestige]
You have learned how to safely apply poisons to your trade.
Prerequisite: Assassin Training, Craft (Alchemy) 4 ranks, character level 6th.
Benefit: When applying poison to a weapon, you no longer risk accidentally poisoning yourself.


----------



## modus666

*arcane trickster prestige feats*

[[GM Note: The arcane trickster was another prestige class that wasnt too hard to convert to prestige feats.  Any boosts to existing casting ability were intentionally left out, as the practiced spellcaster feat can easily accomodate the average e6 character taking this class.  Prerequisites for feats force some diversification, but most of the requirements are likely to beskills such a character would take anyway.]]


Arcane Trickster Prestige Feats


Arcane Trickster Training [prestige]
You have begun training as an Arcane Trickster
Prerequisites: Character Level 6, disable device 4 ranks, open lock, 4 ranks, sleight of hand 4 ranks, knowledge (arcane) 4 ranks, sneak attack +2d6, ability to cast mage hand, ability to cast any second level arcane spell, no lawful alignment.
Benefit:  You gain the following skills as class skills:  Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (None), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).  You also gain the arcane trickster ability ‘ranged legerdemain 1/day.’

Distraction Training [prestige]
You are trained in distracting your foes and lowering their guard
Prerequisite: arcane trickster training, bluff 4 ranks
Benefit: you gain the arcane trickster ability ‘impromptu sneak attack 1/day’

Improved Legerdemain [prestige]
Prerequisites: arcane trickster training, concentrate 4 ranks, spell craft 4 ranks
Benefit: you gain the arcane trickster ability ‘ranged legerdemain 2/day’

Improved Distraction [prestige]
Prerequisite: arcane trickster training, distraction training, sense motive 4 ranks
Benefit: you gain the arcane trickster ability ‘impromptu sneak attack 2/day’

Precision Training [prestige]
Prerequisite: arcane training, 1 other prestige feat, hide 4 ranks, move silent 4 ranks
Benefit:  you gain sneak attack +1d6, this functions just as the rogue ability and stacks with sneak attack dice form other sources


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## modus666

*duelist prestige feats*

continuing in my short string of prestige class conversions for E6, i present to you for your approval, the duelist.

Duelist Prestige Feats

Duelist Training [prestige]
You have begin the path of the duelist
Prerequisite: Character Level 6, no other prestige feats, dodge, mobility, weapon finesse
Benefit: The following skills become class skills for you Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Tumble (Dex).   In addition, you gain the Duelist ability Improved reaction +2

Defensive Training [prestige]
You have studied the art of anticipating your opponents attacks
Prerequisite: Duelist training, perform (dance) 4 ranks
Benefit:  When not wearing armor or using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per prestige feat possessed to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus. 

Graceful Movements [prestige]
Your movements are graceful and lithe
Prerequisite: duelist training, perform (dance) 6 ranks, 
Benefit: you gain the duelist ability ‘grace’

Improved Defensive Training [prestige]
You have a knack for avoiding attacks when on the defensive
Prerequisite: duelist training, tumbling 6 ranks, 1 other prestige feat, perform (dance) 6 ranks, sense motive 6 ranks
Benefit: if you choose to fight defensively or use total defense in melee combat (also applies to using the combat expertise feat), you gains an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC for each prestige feat you have. 

Offensive Training [prestige]
You have learned how to penetrate your opponents defenses
Prerequisite: Duelist Training, spot 4 ranks
Benefit: you gain the duelist ability ‘precise strike +1d6’

Tumbling Attacks [prestige]
You have learned how to launch deadly charge attacks while tumbling
Prerequisite: duelist training, tumbling 4 ranks, jump 4 ranks 1 other prestige feat
Benefit:  you gain the duelist ability ‘acrobatic charge’

Unpredictable Movements [prestige]
Your movements are quick and hard to anticipate
Prerequisite:  duelist training, tumbling 4 ranks, perform (dance) 4 ranks, sense motive 4 tanks
Benefit:  you gain the duelist ability ‘enhanced mobility’


----------



## Shazman

These prestige feats are great! Keep up the good work! I do have one question about one of the assassain prestige feats: How do you determine the DC of the death attack and assassain spells?  I'm guessing it would be 10 + number of prestige feats + int bonus. Does that sound right?


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## modus666

*Dc...*

oh dear i did not look over those very thoroughly... give me a day or two to look that over


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## modus666

ok, yeah, normally i'd say (DC 10 + # of prestige feats + the assassin’s Int modifier); i'd normally max out the effect of prestige feats at +6

for spells figure it normally, all the spells are from the first level assasin spell list.


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## PoeticJustice

Shazman said:
			
		

> Has anyone made any assassain prestige feats?




Why use feats when you can just take Rog5/Ass1 and get another die of sneak attack?

Also, there's a problem with a duelist feat. Canny Defense works off of class level, which isn't possible to gain by level six. Either the feat changes or the class ability does.

Also, keep in mind that these fall under the 'lean upward' approach Ryan mentioned a while ago. There's nothing wrong with it, but these feats are considerably more powerful than PHB. Just something to consider...


----------



## modus666

PoeticJustice said:
			
		

> Why use feats when you can just take Rog5/Ass1 and get another die of sneak attack?
> 
> Also, there's a problem with a duelist feat. Canny Defense works off of class level, which isn't possible to gain by level six. Either the feat changes or the class ability does.




oops forgot to modify that... i'll edit the post above for the correction; it was supposed to be  based on the number of prestige feats the character has


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## modus666

PoeticJustice said:
			
		

> Also, keep in mind that these fall under the 'lean upward' approach Ryan mentioned a while ago. There's nothing wrong with it, but these feats are considerably more powerful than PHB. Just something to consider...




yes, prestige feats are a bit more powerful, just as prestige classes are generally more powerful level-for-level than core classes.  i'd say any DM runnin E6 would be completely justified in disallowing prestige classes, instead requiring normally available feats and abilities to be used to replicate them as close as possible if the character so wished.

however... some people really like the idea of prestige classes even within the e6 framework, and my conversions are intended to accomodate those folks


----------



## Shazman

Yes, I really like the idea of the prestige feats, because they let you get the feel and some of the mechanics of prestige classes that would normally be unavailable in E6.  Please keep them coming.  I hope you are planning on making prestige feat chains for all of the PrC's in the DMG.  I can't wait to see them all.


----------



## Shazman

PoeticJustice said:
			
		

> Why use feats when you can just take Rog5/Ass1 and get another die of sneak attack?
> 
> Also, there's a problem with a duelist feat. Canny Defense works off of class level, which isn't possible to gain by level six. Either the feat changes or the class ability does.
> 
> Also, keep in mind that these fall under the 'lean upward' approach Ryan mentioned a while ago. There's nothing wrong with it, but these feats are considerably more powerful than PHB. Just something to consider...




If you read it closely, uncanny defense works off of the number of prestige feats instead of class level.  In fact, all these prestige feats substitute the number of prestige feats for number of class levels for determining their effects.  It's a pretty clever way of doing it.  There is a good reason not to take rog5/ass1.  That combo, makes you lose bab, fort and will save bonuses, and skill points.  Even though the 1st level assassain abilities are pretty decent, that's a lot to give up.  I think it's good to leave the option of prestige feats or one level in the prestige class  up to the player or DM if it's an NPC.

Here's another assassain prestige feat.

Hidden Blade (Prestige)
Prerequisites: Disguise 4 ranks, Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks, character level 6, Assassain Training, two or more prestige feats, Skill Focus: Hide
Benefit: You gain hide in plain sight.


----------



## Evilhalfling

hide in plain sight ? really ? 
that ability has so many problems it would seem easier to leave out of E6. 
I can't see playing a Shadowdancer without it, but im inclined to leave out prestige feats, and most capstone feats, the game would seem to play fine without them.  with
Your milage may vary of course.


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## Quartz

Should prestige feats cost more? Or perhaps you should take the Prestige Training feat each time before you take the prestige feat?


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## Shazman

I don't think so. You have to get several prestige feats to get some of the better PrC abilities.  I think that every E6 character should eventually be able to grow a bit in power as well as flexibility in a long term E6 game.  Otherwise, you might as well start another campaign once every gets most of the feats they want.  I think that prestige feats are a flavorful way of doing that.  If you really think about it,  the basic ablities of the classes: hit points, bonuses to attacks and damage, ititerative attacks, saving throws, maximum spell level, etc. are going to be pretty much static in E6.  Does it really matter if you get a few extra sneak attack dice and death attack if  you are pretty much stuck with a +8 attack bonus and 40 hit points?


----------



## Shazman

Evilhalfling said:
			
		

> hide in plain sight ? really ?
> that ability has so many problems it would seem easier to leave out of E6.
> I can't see playing a Shadowdancer without it, but im inclined to leave out prestige feats, and most capstone feats, the game would seem to play fine without them.  with
> Your milage may vary of course.




Is hide in plain sight that big of a deal?  It just lets you hide without concealment as long as there is a shadow around.  I don't think the problem is so much with this ability as with how the hide skill itself works.  The ability does fit the assassain.  It was a nice addition to the class in 3.5.  Anyway, I really am sold on the idea of prestige feats.  If I run an E6 campaign (which I hope to soon), I will defintely use them.


----------



## Shazman

Are you planning on doing some mystic theruge, archmage, loremaster, dwarven defender, and hierophant feats?


----------



## Shazman

Just curious, but does any fan of E6 who is also familiar with the new Pathfinder RPG rules see any problem with doing a E6 pathfinder campaign.  It seems that every class and race have been given significant boosts.  That's a good thing if you want ot reduce reliance on magic items, mulitclassing, and prestige classes.  It's not so good if it's just power creep to sell products.  What do all of you think?


----------



## joela

*zero*



			
				Shazman said:
			
		

> Just curious, but does any fan of E6 who is also familiar with the new Pathfinder RPG rules see any problem with doing a E6 pathfinder campaign.  It seems that every class and race have been given significant boosts.  That's a good thing if you want ot reduce reliance on magic items, mulitclassing, and prestige classes.  It's not so good if it's just power creep to sell products.  What do all of you think?




There were several playtest posts on the Paizo site of folks who ran the PRPG through modules without adjusting the power level. They said it ran just fine. Biggest adjustment: less stops due to the cleric's channel positive energy abilities and the wizard's 0-level "at will" spells.


----------



## Shazman

modus666 said:
			
		

> yes, prestige feats are a bit more powerful, just as prestige classes are generally more powerful level-for-level than core classes.  i'd say any DM runnin E6 would be completely justified in disallowing prestige classes, instead requiring normally available feats and abilities to be used to replicate them as close as possible if the character so wished.
> 
> however... some people really like the idea of prestige classes even within the e6 framework, and my conversions are intended to accomodate those folks




Yes, please keep the conversions coming.


----------



## Moracai

Hello gents (and ladies, if present).

My first post here. I consider myself somewhat a veteran gamer, being in the hobby from the eighties. I haven't played much of D&D, although I am a player in a dragonlance campaign right now. I have given some thought to starting a Planescape campaign based on the Modron March, but I haven't found the right "feel" for it yet.

I think that this E6 thing might do it for me. I have a very good feeling about it.

My question to you who have played it is:

Do you think that the characters have enough of skill ranks at the 6th level, or do you think that they would need to rise after that?

(mandatory first post disclaimer: Sorry if my english is poor. Not a native speaker and all that. Been too lazy to edit my profile yet.)


----------



## Shazman

On the first page of this thread, there are some E6 specific feats.  One let's you increase your max ranks in a skill.  Plus there are feats like open mind that give you more skill points, plus skill focus and the feats that give you +2 to two different skills.


----------



## Moracai

Thanks for that Shazman.

I noticed that +5 max rank feat, but I have missed that open mind feat.

That must be in some book I haven't seen, but it seems like it would fill that spot nicely... How many skill points one can get from that feat?


----------



## Will

Open Minded gives you 5 skill points. It first appeared in Psionics Handbook (of all places), is open content viewable here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#openMinded

It was later reprinted in Complete Adventurer.


----------



## Shazman

The feat is from Expanded Psionics Handbook and reprinted in Complete Adventurer.  It's a general feat that gives you 5 skill points.  It's a simple as that so if that's all you want, I wouldn't waste money on a book for this one feat.


----------



## Werebat

I've been excited about E6 since I first read about it, and am trying to convince my players to get behind me on switching my new Eberron game over to it (we've only played one session so far so it wouldn't require much retrofitting, and E6 fits the plotline a lot better than standard d20).

In the course of discussing things with them, I have added my own spin and houserules on E6 and wondered how people here might react to my proposals.  Especially my idea of gestalting vs. taking a capstone class as well as the new capstone feats I have proposed.

Much of what I am cutting and pasting here is directly from this and other online sources.  However, much of it is new.  Again, I'm curious what you folks think of it (particularly the new stuff, like Master of Metamagic).

Here's the document I will be forwarding to my players shortly proposing the exact changes I would like to make to my game:

E6 General

•	Characters progress in level as normal until reaching 6th level, at which point a bonus feat can be chosen for every 5000 experience points earned.  The character must still be able to meet the requirements of these feats in order to take them.
•	The following “Raising the Stakes” options from the E6 wiki will be used: Conviction (replaces Action Points), The Death Flag, and Raising the Stakes.  I am open to using Players Roll All the Dice if the majority of people want to try it.


Going Gestalt and Capstone Classes

•	Upon reaching 6th level, each character chooses to either “go gestalt” or selects a “capstone class” (which he must have taken at least one level in).
•	If a character chooses to “go gestalt”, he can choose to spend feats to acquire class abilities held by any classes that he has at least one level in.  These class abilities include actual class abilities as well as spellcaster levels, BAB, and saving throws (+1 advancement per feat spent).  He may never purchase class abilities that could not be earned by a character with six levels in the class in question.  Prestige class abilities can be earned this way so long as the level of the PrC required to achieve them could possibly have been reached by a 6th level character.
•	If a character chooses to select a capstone class, he may never spend feats to acquire class abilities as described above (not even in his capstone class).  However, he is eligible to purchase up to three “capstone feats” that are tied to his capstone class.  These feats typically grant abilities not attainable until after the 6th level of the capstone class.  If a character has less than 6 levels in his capstone class, some of the abilities gained from his capstone feats may need to be modified to account for this.


Magic Items

•	Artificers cannot use their abilities to emulate spells of higher than 3rd level.  As a result, no magic items requiring spells of higher than 3rd level are available for purchase in the markets of Sharn or any other area.
•	The caster level for the creation of any item can be lowered to the minimum level required to cast the spells needed to create it.  Thus, any item or item enhancement that requires no spell higher than 3rd level in its creation can be found in the markets of Sharn and elsewhere, so long as its other requirements could be met by a 6th level character.  Thus, Boots of Speed could be found for purchase even though their required Caster Level is officially 10th.
•	Players may request otherwise uncraftable items to be placed as treasure, and I will make an honest effort to do so at an appropriate time as long as the items do not seem disruptive to the game (especially if they are central to the character’s concept).  These “artifacts” may have been crafted long ago by giants, dragons, or even deities.
New E6 Feats

Ability Advancement (General)
Your training pays off, and one of your Abilities increases. 
Prerequisite: Ability Training in the same ability.
Benefit: Choose one Ability. You gain a permanent +2 bonus to that ability. This bonus does not stack with the benefit from Ability Training.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat it applies to another ability. 

Ability Boost (General)
Prerequisite: This feat can only be taken as a bonus feat after 6th level.
Benefit: Choose an ability.  You gain a permanent +1 bonus to that ability.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times.  Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat it applies to another ability.

Ability Training (General)
You spend time honing one of your Abilities: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma.
Prerequisite: This feat can only be taken as a bonus feat after 6th level.
Benefit: Choose one Ability; treat that Ability as having a +2 bonus to its score for the purposes of Ability Checks and Skill Checks. This bonus does not count for any other use of that ability. 
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat it applies to another ability.

Expanded Caster Stamina (General)
Prerequisite: This feat can only be taken as a bonus feat after 6th level.
Benefit: You gain one or more new spell slots, with spell levels totaling to half your caster level (rounded down).  Treat a 0th-level spell slot as one half a level.  Thus, a sixth-level wizard could gain one 3rd level spell slot, or one 2nd level and one 1st level spell slots, or three new 1st level spell slots, etc.  This feat cannot provide spell slots of a level higher than you can already cast.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times.  Each time you take it you gain more spell slots.  An artificer can take the feat to gain extra infusion slots instead of spell slots.

Expanded Spell Knowledge (General)
Prerequisite: This feat can only be taken as a bonus feat after 6th level.
Benefit: You learn one or more new spells known, with spell levels totaling to half your caster level (rounded down).  Treat a new 0th-level spell as having one half a level.  Thus, a sixth-level sorcerer could learn one new 3rd level spell, or one new 2nd level and one new 1st level spells, or three new 1st level spells, etc.  This feat cannot provide spells known of a level higher than you can already cast.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times.  Each time you take it you learn more new spells.


Heroic Fortitude (General)
Prerequisite: This feat can only be taken as a bonus feat after 6th level.
Benefit: For every feat you have gained after level 6 (including this one), you gain one extra hit point.  Future feats will raise your hit point total by 1 hit point per feat.

Heroic Spirit (General)
Benefit: Your Conviction point pool per session is raised to 7.  You still gain only 6 points of Conviction for raising your Death Flag.
(Note: This feat replaces the Heroic Spirit feat from the ECS)

Master of Metamagic (General)
Prerequisite: Ability to cast at least one 3rd level spell, at least one metamagic feat that could be applied to Master of Metamagic (see below).  This feat can only be taken as a bonus feat after 6th level.
Benefit: You gain a 4th level spell slot that can only be filled with a metamagicked spell of 3rd level or below.  You must have the appropriate metamagic feat or feats to affect the spell with (swift or sudden versions do not count).
Special: You may take this feat more than once, up to a total of six times.  You must have at least one metamagic feat that could be applied to Master of Metamagic for each time you take Master of Metamagic.  Each time you take Master of Metamagic, the level of the new spell slot you gain from it increases by one.  For example, the second time you take it, you gain a 5th level spell slot that can only be filled with a metamagicked spell of 3rd level or below.

Swift Metamagic (Metamagic)
Benefit: When you take this feat, select a metamagic feat. As a swift action once per day, you may apply this metamagic feat to a spell you cast with no adjustment to the level of the spell cast.
Special: You must have a number of Swift metamagic feats equal to the level increase of your chosen metamagic, minus one, to take this feat. For example, Empower Spell, which boosts the level of a spell by 2, has a prerequisite of 1 Swift feat. Extend Spell, which has an increase of 1, would have no prerequisites. This feat may be taken multiple times.

Swift Strikes (General)
Prerequisite: BAB +3
Benefit: The cost for you to take an extra standard action is reduced to 1 Conviction point if you use that action solely to make an attack.  This will not work in conjunction with any form of spellcasting, such as Melf’s Acid Arrow.

Wondrous Rings (Item Creation)
Prerequisite: Craft Wondrous Item.  This feat can only be taken as a bonus feat after 6th level.
Benefit: You treat rings as wondrous items for the purpose of meeting item creation prerequisites.  You must still meet any other requirements for any rings you create.


Capstone Feats:

These feats are available as post-6th level feats for characters that have chosen their relevant classes as capstone classes.  The third feats in each set can only be taken after at least one of the first two.  Unless otherwise noted, no capstone feat has any other prerequisites.  Some capstone feats (such as those granting spells) may be adjusted by the DM in cases where a character has less than 6 levels in their capstone class.

Artificer:
* Accomplished Craftsman: Your Craft Reserve renews itself to 150 points.  In the future, this will happen every time you gain another feat.
* Metamagic Spell Completion (as the Artificer ability)
* Skill Mastery (as the Artificer ability)

Barbarian:
* Barbaric Toughness: You gain Damage Resistance 1/-
* Imp. Barbaric Toughness: Your DR increases to 3/- (Requires Barbaric Toughness)
* Battle Fury: You gain Greater Rage and Tireless Rage (as the Barbarian abilities)

Bard:
* Bardic Inspiration (Inspire Courage at +2 instead of +1) (Requires 3 ranks in Perform)
* Choose 1 3rd level Bard spell from a list supplied by the DM.  You may cast this spell once per day.
* Inspire Greatness (as the Bardic ability – requires 9 ranks in Perform)

Cleric:
* Extra Domain: Choose a Domain in the portfolio of your god that you do not already have access to.  You have access to this Domain, including its granted power.
* Heroic Caster: Your Caster Level is raised by +1 (to 7th) for all purposes other than spells known and spells per day.
* Heroic Spell: Choose 1 4th level Cleric spell from a list supplied by the DM.  You may cast this spell 1/day.  You may use your Spontaneous Casting ability with this spell.

Druid:
* Ferocious Slayer: You may take the Ferocious Slayer form when Shapeshifting.
* Heroic Caster: Your Caster Level is raised by +1 (to 7th) for all purposes other than spells known and spells per day.
* Heroic Spell: Choose 1 4th level Druid spell from a list supplied by the DM.  You may cast this spell 1/day.  You may use your Spontaneous Casting ability with this spell.

Fighter:
* Martial Veteran: You gain any feat requiring a +8 BAB and/or 8 levels of Fighter whose prerequisites you otherwise meet.  You can take Martial Veteran multiple times.
* Greater Weapon Specialization in any one weapon
* Martial Prowess: When you make a full attack, you get a bonus iterative attack, which has a BAB of 5 less than the lowest BAB iterative attack you would normally have.

Monk:
* Precise Flurry: You take no penalty to hit when flurrying
* Improved Evasion (as the Monk ability)
* Unarmed Prowess: You gain Greater Flurry (as the Monk ability) and your Unarmed damage goes up by one step.

Paladin:
* Holy Strikes: Your weapon attacks count as Good aligned for the purpose of overcoming DR.
* Exalted Might: Your Paladin level is treated as 8th for the purposes of the Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, and Turn Undead abilities.
* Righteous Knight: Choose one 2nd level Paladin spell from a list supplied by the DM.  You can cast this spell once per day.  In addition, your Paladin level is treated as 8th for the purpose of the Special Mount ability.

Ranger:
* Mystic Woodsman: Choose one 2nd level Ranger spell from a list supplied by the DM.  You can cast this spell once per day.  In addition, you gain the Woodland Stride and Swift Tracker Ranger abilities.
* Evasion (as the Ranger ability)
* 3rd Favored Enemy (as the Ranger ability)

Rogue:
* +1d6 Sneak Attack damage
* Improved Uncanny Dodge (as the Rogue ability)
* Roguish Ability: You gain any one of the 10th level Rogue special abilities.  You can take Roguish Ability multiple times; each time you take it, you gain a new special ability.

Sorcerer:
* Heroic Caster: Your Caster Level is raised by +1 (to 7th) for all purposes other than spells known and spells per day.
* Arcane Master: You gain two feats from the Wizard Bonus Feat list.
* Heroic Spell: Choose 1 4th level Sorcerer spell from a list supplied by the DM.  You may cast this spell 3/day.

Wizard:
* Heroic Caster: Your Caster Level is raised by +1 (to 7th) for all purposes other than spells known and spells per day.
* Arcane Master: You gain two feats from the Wizard Bonus Feat list.
* Heroic Spell: Choose 2 4th level Wizard spells from a list supplied by the DM.  Each day, you may choose one of these spells to prepare and cast.  If you are a specialist wizard and one of your chosen spells is from your specialized school, you can prepare it an additional time per day.


----------



## Moracai

I had a very similar idea to your capstone feats werebat.

I have them on another computer, though.

Regarding E6 in general. I first thought about making gestalt characters for it, but some of the combinations are more powerful than others, so I decided to go with Generic Classes from Unearthed Arcana. Becouse the Generic spellcasters don't get 4th level spells until level 8, I decided to raise the levelcap to 7. That way those players who want two normal attacks or have 3rd level spells can take one other class beside their main one as well.

I also went through the Magic Item Compendium to see what items are available from there. I made a list of them, and I'll post it here later. I'll possibly post those "capstone" feats too. Some of them are borrowed and modified from those found earlier on this thread, but a few are of my own devising.


----------



## Mokona

Moracai said:
			
		

> I first thought about making gestalt characters



Thanks for the inspiration.  I love Epic Six but one of the things I miss is prestige classes.  The thing I love about E6 is staying with low level spells, lower hit dice, and lower AC/BAB with less magic trinkets.

So I'm working on a new variant E6*.  One where characters level as normal up to 6th level.  Then characters can choose to level again "gestalt" style up to level six.  The second set of levels are combined with the first just like gestalt so in the case of overlapping abilities you just take the best.

Are there any potential pitfalls to this system that I'm overlooking?  I think I'd like this better than the various E7, E8, etc variants I've seen out there.

Rogue 6/Assassin 6
+4 BAB, +2/+5/+2 saves, +3d6 sneak attack, improved uncanny dodge, 3/3/1 assassin spells per day

Wizard 6/Cleric 6
Basically a mystic theurge without some of the drawbacks.  I'm using the gestalt rule that "mystic theurge" type dual-class prestige classes aren't allowed in gestalt games.


----------



## Moracai

Mokona said:
			
		

> Are there any potential pitfalls to this system that I'm overlooking?



One potential pitfall (in fact the reason I decided to abandon the gestalt idea and go with the generic classes) is that the different combinations are not very balanced. A 6/6 Paladin-Sorcerer has more to gain from going gestalt than a 6/6 Barbarian-Fighter, for example.

Another potential pitfall in your example might be that the player could feel that he doesn't "gain" enough from getting those secondary levels. I think that making those Assassin class features as feats to be gained, might have the same effect to the game that you are after.


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## Mokona

6/6 Paladin-Sorcerer
+6/+1 BAB, +5/+2/+5 saves, 6d10 HD, 18 skill points, aura of good, detect evil, smite 2/day, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount, remove disease 1/week, 1 1st level paladin spell per day, summon familiar, 6/6/5/3 sorcerer spells per day (but these are all affected by spell failure rules if wearing armor)

6/6 Fighter-Barbarian
+6/+1 BAB, +5/+2/+2 saves, 6d12 HD, 36 skill points, 4 bonus feats, fast movement, rage 2/day, improved uncanny dodge, trap sense +2

I'm not sure that the mixed fighter-wizard is 100% better than the dedicated fighter.  But the point of my option was using prestige classes.  I'd much rather be a:

6/6 Druid-Shifter
+4 BAB, +5/+5/+5 saves, 6d8 HD, 36 skill points, 5/3/3/2 druid spells per day, animal companion, nature sense, wild empathy, woodland stride, trackless step, resist nature's lure, wild shape 1/day, greater wild shape 5/day (small, medium, humanoid, animal, monstrous humanoid, large, tiny, beast, plant, giant, vermin, diminutive, magical beast, aberration, ooze), supernatural ease

6/6 Monk-Assassin
Even better than the Rogue-Assassin in almost every way

If you don't like the gestalt rules that is a separate issue.  I've used gestalt rules before and no one cried about the suboptimal choices of playing redundant classes instead of complimentary ones.


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## Moracai

Perhaps I should really try those gestalts before passing judgement. The reason I've been toying with those ideas is to try to get rid of one-trick-ponyism almost all players will get into in E6 (and perhaps generally in D&D   ).


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## Grimstaff

I've found gestalts work just fine with an ECL of +1, and work better than other multi-class options. For E6, give them a 5 level cap, and they should balance just fine.


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## Ry

GSL being what it is (revocable) I can't see myself doing a 4e version of E6.  

I might do an OGL version that's a "complete game" - but I'm even more likely to do another rpg whole-cloth.  If I do a traditional RPG, I'll put it in the public domain.


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## Mokona

Ryan Stoughton said:
			
		

> GSL being what it is (revocable) I can't see myself doing a 4e version of E6.



E6 is pretty simple in concept and execution (partially because I don't use capstone feats or the other E6 specific feats).  I just need to figure out what is the best level at which to stop gaining them and switch over to feats.

If you had to take the below chart for 3rd edition and update it to 4th edition what levels fit for each term?

Levels 1-5: Gritty fantasy
Levels 6-10: Heroic fantasy
Levels 11-15: Wuxia
Levels 16-20: Superheroes


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## Grimstaff

Level 1-10 Heroic
Level 11-20 Paragon
Level 21-30 Epic






Sorry...


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## CleverNickName

Ryan Stoughton said:
			
		

> GSL being what it is (revocable) I can't see myself doing a 4e version of E6.



Welcome back, Ryan!

First of all, E6 is the best houserule I have ever used.  Easily.

Second, you are probably right about 4E and the GSL.  Which makes me very sad.


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## Ry

Seeing as the dead would be raised by level 8 and there's limited teleport... but the kind of "1 level of a prestige class" benefits would be at level 12.  The math is just plain different.  Guessing where to start would be a shot in the dark, and I'd have to play a lot of 4e to be able to say how it really works.  That's not tremendously likely because I'm playing non-traditional systems these days.

(PS: I'm only sort-of back - "Is there going to be a 4e E6?" was a question from last year so I felt like you guys deserved an answer.  I'm wary of wading into edition vs. edition.)


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## Aus_Snow

Thanks for all you have done so far, Ryan. Also, thanks for pointing out a particularly interesting indie game that I mightn't have come across otherwise. It was in a thread a while back. Anyway, cheers.

Looking forward to seeing what else you might come up with at any stage.


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## Mokona

Ryan Stoughton said:
			
		

> Seeing as the dead would be raised by level 8 and there's limited teleport... but the kind of "1 level of a prestige class" benefits would be at level 12.



Thanks for helping me frame the question for further investigation.  That's why you're a professional designer and I work on the business side.

PS: A really big thanks for inventing E6 and polishing it so nicely for FREE.  Your kindness shouldn't be forgotten.


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## Edena_of_Neith

(bump)


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## Edena_of_Neith

Admins, could you move this thread over to the 3rd edition forums?
  I think that's where it belongs ...


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## Angellis_ater

Anyone have experience of doing E6 psionics?


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## Alzrius

I wanted to ask (and apologies in advance if this has already been covered; I didn't want to look through fourteen pages of the thread), is there anything about races with natural Hit Dice in E6?

I know the basic rules describe what to do with races that have a level adjustment, but they don't really seem to talk about natural Hit Dice (other than briefly mentioning them in the LA part of the FAQ, but not talking about how to balance them).

What I'm trying to ask is, are races capped at a maximum of six HD from any source in E6, or can they have any amount of natural Hit Dice, but only six class levels?

For example, if I'm running a lizardfolk PC in an E6 game, I'd use a 25-point buy because it's a +1 LA race. However, it already has 2 natural Hit Dice. Given that, can the character gain six levels of a class, or only four more? Either way seems to create some problems. If limited to four levels, there are issues with verisimilitude (e.g. no lizardfolk in the game world can ever, say, get enough levels to cast 3rd-level spells). But if they can take six class levels, there are issues of balance (since the character has more Hit Dice, with all the commensurate, than PCs with no natural Hit Dice).

What's the answer here?


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## unundindur

Racial HD are still counted toward the total, so Lizardmen start as ecl 3 characters, but not with the level adjustment. Anyhow, the best solution is likely to ret-con lizardmen by removing hteir racial HD (and adjusting accordingly).

Thats my take at it at least (the HD part is covered in one of the first posts).


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## Scurvy_Platypus

Angellis_ater said:


> Anyone have experience of doing E6 psionics?




I played around slightly with psionics in my E8 game, but I was using the Psychic's Handbook from Green Ronin, which goes with a skill based approach. It worked out fine, but it's not like it really got hammered on seriously.


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## dragonlordofpoondari

Nice to see you around here, Ryan. Best of luck to you.


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## Shazman

Ryan Stoughton said:


> Seeing as the dead would be raised by level 8 and there's limited teleport... but the kind of "1 level of a prestige class" benefits would be at level 12.  The math is just plain different.  Guessing where to start would be a shot in the dark, and I'd have to play a lot of 4e to be able to say how it really works.  That's not tremendously likely because I'm playing non-traditional systems these days.
> 
> (PS: I'm only sort-of back - "Is there going to be a 4e E6?" was a question from last year so I felt like you guys deserved an answer.  I'm wary of wading into edition vs. edition.)





I'd say it would be E10 for 4th edition with paragon feats as capstone abilities to give you some PP abilities.  It is sad that the GSL is so restrictive.  The OGL was about sharing the rules with everyone and growing the community, while it seems like the GSL is just the opposite.  It just goes to show that today's WotC is more about lawyers and accountants than about gamers trying to improve the hobboy.


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## Grimstaff

Unless someone is planning on printing, marketing, and selling a 4E E6, the GSL has nothing to do with it, whatsoever.


----------



## Shazman

Yeah, I thought of that last night.  As long as it's not published, you could easily just put out 4E E10 on these boards where E6 got it's start.  I'm not really sure that E10 is as necessary or as attractive as E6.  4e is just so different.  Your characters start out as powerful and complex as 3.5 characters in the 4-6 level range, but their power and complexity don't increase as sharply as it does in 3.5.  I'm not sure if it would be worth it.  Just take a look at 4E feats.  Your character already gets more of them in 4E, but they aren't as powerful as 3.5 feats.  You also have a lot of feats that are restricted by tiers and race, so you are left with a handful of feats to acquire instead of levels.  You'd probably have to give out feats and powers in a 4E version of E6, and there aren't a whole bunch of powers to pick from compared to 3.5 feats.  You would pretty much have to start from scratch to make a 4E version of E6.


----------



## Grimstaff

Supposedly, 4E was designed to fix one of the same problems E6 does, the unnecessary complexity and redundancy of high-level 3.5 play. It'll probably be quite some time before anyone has enough high-level play experience to determine whether 4E needs that "fix" or not.


----------



## Scurvy_Platypus

Errr... not to be a wet blanket, but would it be possible to fork 4E "E6"/"E10"/whatever to a different thread?

This particular thread is pretty focused on 3E, its mechanics, and how to get a pretty specific style of play out of 3E. I don't know 4E, but from what I've heard the mechanics are sufficiently different that I'm not sure how useful a discussion about them is really going to be for folks that are planning on running a 3E E6.


----------



## Shazman

I don't think that's necessary.  I've said all that needs to be said about a possible 4E version of E6.  There's not enough info or play experience to really consider it at this point.  Anyway, does anyone know where a comprehensive list of E6 prestige feats can be found?


----------



## unundindur

I am about to build a complete excel database of all wondrous items from the DMG, DMG2 and MiC that comply with E6. For me this means they must use maximum 3rd level spells, and a maximum caster level of 7 (assuming someone will be able to increase their caster level by 1). I will post it here when I am done with it, but it takes a hell of a lot of time...

On a side note, I am running my first E6 campaign and it is running very well, even though we are going through the levels faster than what makes sense in this context.

E6 seems extremely well souted for "persistent world" concepts. By this I mean that you don't have to focus so much on monitoring resources, since items are capped anyway. If you happen to have 4 million gold pieces you may get some great stuff, but you can only wear so much.

And so far, the most powerful items of e6 seems to be major cloak of displacement and helm of underwater action.


----------



## Alzrius

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but the _Loot 4 Less_ series of PDFs, by IDA, is a series of books completely in the spirit of E6. I can't recommend them enough for anyone who wants a better variety of low-power magic items for their E6 games (after all, a _wand of fireballs_ can still be disruptive in an E6 game, but L4L wands are much more in the theme of the game). Check them out:

Loot 4 Less Vol. I: Rings & Things
Loot 4 Less Vol. II: Rods, Staffs & Wands
Loot 4 Less Vol. III: Belts, Boots, Cloaks, & Gloves


----------



## Aus_Snow

Alzrius said:


> I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but the _Loot 4 Less_ series of PDFs, by IDA, is a series of books completely in the spirit of E6. I can't recommend them enough for anyone who wants a better variety of low-power magic items for their E6 games (after all, a _wand of fireballs_ can still be disruptive in an E6 game, but L4L wands are much more in the theme of the game). Check them out:
> 
> Loot 4 Less Vol. I: Rings & Things
> Loot 4 Less Vol. II: Rods, Staffs & Wands
> Loot 4 Less Vol. III: Belts, Boots, Cloaks, & Gloves



Hm. Might just do that. But could you (or someone, at least) recommend another thing useful for E6, to take it over the minimum purchase total? I have quite a lot of PDFs already, so that mightn't be the easiest request, but TIA, if you can think of anything.


----------



## Alzrius

Aus_Snow said:


> Hm. Might just do that. But could you (or someone, at least) recommend another thing useful for E6, to take it over the minimum purchase total? I have quite a lot of PDFs already, so that mightn't be the easiest request, but TIA, if you can think of anything.




Well, there are some supplements regarding low-level spells, which sort of fits with low-level magic items.

Octavirate Presents #3: Simple Tricks and Nonsense, from Octavirate Games, is a book all about cantrips. It not only has several dozen new cantrips, most of which are non-combat themed, but also has related rules. For example, there are feats to let any character cast a few cantrips. There's also revised spellcasting tables to let spellcasters gain additional 0-level spells for high ability scores, and a Hedge Mage NPC class. Nicely, there's also expanded spell lists and spellcasting tables to give 0-level spells to classes that don't usually receive them, such as paladins, rangers, etc.

Minor Magicks, from Silverthorne Games, is a book of low-level spells and magic items. Ranging from level 0-3, there are a few dozen spells here, all of which are meant to be utility spells for the common man. Similarly, all of the items are ones that'd be much more useful to a commoner than an adventurer, in terms of practical application.

I think both of these would work well in an E6 game in terms of power level, but there's one regard in which I'm somewhat hesitant. There seems to be an unspoken assumption in both books that magic is fairly ubiquitous. After all, if people have been inventing spells to stimulate hair growth, or create a little black cloud that rains on a person's head, then clearly magic isn't exactly a mysterious, fearsome force, which is what E6 seems to be striving for.

On the other hand, that's my own prejudice showing through. It might make sense in your game that, with magic being restricted in power, it's wider in versatility, and people have made it work for them in more ways than just attacking and defending. Either way, you may get some use out of these books for your E6 game.


----------



## Aus_Snow

Thanks, Alzrius.  I'll see what appeals to me most, after finding out a bit more about those, and anything else I can track down that seems potentially relevant.

Now to bump that thread I started. . .


----------



## Waspinator

Am I the only one having trouble with the PDF? It seems to be missing page 4.


----------



## Werebat

OK, so let's say I'm playing a wizard in E6.

It's pretty easy to bring your caster level up really high even in E6.  At 6th level, it's 6th (obviously).  Tack on the following with the spell Scorching Ray:

1. Arcane Thesis (adds +2)
2. Domain Wizard: Fire (adds +1)
3. That fireball-esque reserve feat from Complete Mage (adds +1)
4. The draconic ancestry feat from Races of the Dragon (pick red dragon) (adds +1)

There are other ways to bump as well, but this will suffice for now as it brings our CL for Scorching Ray up to 11, which is where it maxes out at 3 rays for a total of 12d6 damage.

Now comes the fun part.

Empowering Spellshard from MiC lets us empower a scorching ray 3/day.
Swift Metamagic can be taken for both Split Ray and Maximize
We can also take Sudden Maximize
Arcane Thesis lets us memorize a split scorching ray as a 3rd level spell.

Now we can cast a split (via swift metamagic), empowered (via empowering spellshard), maximized (via sudden maximize) scorching ray as an 11th level caster.  This puppy will do well over 100 points of damage to some lucky target (124 on average).

Thanks to the handy-dandy Conviction Points, we can get an extra standard action and cast ANOTHER one of these monstrosities in the same round (this time amping up with a 3rd level memorized split scorching ray, the empowering spellshard, and a swift maximize).  248 damage in one round, woohoo!

Does this seem like it breaks E6?  I really like the system but I'm still seeing trouble with wizards.  I've ruled that you can't metamagic a spell to beyond the point where it would be a 9th level spell if metamagicked via the "conventional" method, but the scorching ray cheese I'm talking about here still works with that rule (2nd level spell +2 for split ray +2 for empower +3 for maximize = 9th level spell).

???


----------



## Scurvy_Platypus

Disclaimer: I don't play casters in d20 because this kind of stuff is just a hassle...

Ummm... congratulations?

I don't know quite what you're looking for. Could someone do that? Well, I've got no clue. Would a DM that's running an E6 game in the first place _allow_ that? I'm thinking it's pretty doubtful. Depends on why the person is running an E6 game in the first place.

While many people that are attracted to E6 are into it because they want a "low magic" and/or "gritty" game, that certainly doesn't mean everybody is into it for that reason.

I for example just don't see much point to the whole inflation of levels, hit points, and all that other stuff. After a point, it's just "more".

If Wizards are a problem... ban 'em.

If you try to close every single potential loophoole/cheesy/exploitative approach to the game, you're going to have a massive tome of rules to try and deal with.

Me? If I was really concerned about it, I'd say that a spell can't ever function better than the caster's level. Now, you could say that the caster's level is the total overall character level, or it could be limited to the spellcaster's class level that's being used for casting the spell in the first place.

In other words, if you've got a Fighter 3 / Wizard 3, you can either say the spell can't function better than a 6th level spell (total character level) or it can't function better than a 3rd level spell (level of the casting class).

Why limit it to 6th level? Because there's no such thing as a level above 6th. The idea behind E6 isn't "we're not going to level our characters past 6th level", it's "there's no such thing as a level beyond 6th."

It's a bit of a subtle distinction, but if you or some player is going to be trying that hard to exploit the system, that's going to be the first "polite" approach I'm going to take to limiting that sort of thing.

You can't cast it as an 11th level caster because there's no such thing.


----------



## Imp

Werebat said:


> I really like the system but I'm still seeing trouble with wizards.  I've ruled that you can't metamagic a spell to beyond the point where it would be a 9th level spell if metamagicked via the "conventional" method, but the scorching ray cheese I'm talking about here still works with that rule (2nd level spell +2 for split ray +2 for empower +3 for maximize = 9th level spell).



Keeping in the spirit of E6, I would tend to hard-cap metamagic effects (including those from items) at 3rd or maybe possibly 4th level spell slots, which would put the big metamagic effects right out. I don't know what the ideal spot is, but I certainly wouldn't let the metamagic stack to 9th.


----------



## jensun

Imp said:


> Keeping in the spirit of E6, I would tend to hard-cap metamagic effects (including those from items) at 3rd or maybe possibly 4th level spell slots, which would put the big metamagic effects right out. I don't know what the ideal spot is, but I certainly wouldn't let the metamagic stack to 9th.



You could just remove arcane thesis on the basis that its brokety broke broke.


----------



## Imp

jensun said:


> You could just remove arcane thesis on the basis that its brokety broke broke.



Well, yeah, there's that – I'm not much for reserve feats* or Races of The Dragon (uh, Draconomicon, right?) either but that leads to a complicated discussion on feat and item houseruling.

*I still haven't gotten to put together an E6 campaign but I am sort of considering allowing one reserve feat as a capstone feat. Maybe just for sorcerers.


----------



## Werebat

Imp said:


> Keeping in the spirit of E6, I would tend to hard-cap metamagic effects (including those from items) at 3rd or maybe possibly 4th level spell slots, which would put the big metamagic effects right out. I don't know what the ideal spot is, but I certainly wouldn't let the metamagic stack to 9th.



Thanks to everyone who has replied to my original question.  The truth is that I love E6 and am running an E6 game right now (with some heavy modifications).  I find that it opens up a lot of doors for character creation and actually enables certain interesting builds that just aren't possible in standard D&D.

Limiting the effective spell level for metamagicked spells might make sense, but it means banning a lot of feats (some of which were designed for E6 in the first place).  For example all of the swift metamagic feats.

As for banning Arcane Thesis, it's mostly used in my example to boost the CL, and there are other ways to do that.  Without AT things don't look much less potent -- even if this would prevent CL from going above 9th, you still get:

1. Swift split, sudden maximized, spellshard-empowered scorching ray (3 rays doing a total of 108 damage on average if they all hit)
2. Swift quickened, spellshard-empowered scorching ray (2 rays doing a total of 78 damage on average if they all hit)
3. 3 Conviction Points lets you cast a third spellshard-empowered scorching ray (78 more damage)

That's a total of 264 damage on average in one round.  NOVA!

I guess you could rule that since there is only one quickened action allowed in a round, you can't swift twin and swift quicken in the same round, but with some investment of feats you CAN get sudden quicken which will enable all of this.

A few possibilities:

* Ban all of the sudden metamagic feats, considering them rolled into or replaced by the swift metamagic feats (not a bad idea really).

* Limit metamagic's ability to raise effective spell level in some way (double the original spell's level, for example).  I'm not so sure about this one.

If you ban the sudden metamagic feats then the best you can do is a swift quickened scorching ray empowered by a spellshard, then followed up with another spellshard-empowered scorching ray and then another one cast via 3 Conviction Point expenditure.  If Arcane Thesis is allowed, you can memorize three split scorching rays, then cast all three empowered via spellshard (one swift quickened, one normal, and one more with 3 Conviction Points) -- these will deal 156 damage each on average, for a total of about 468 damage in one round (if they all hit).  If AT is banned, you can't split the rays and this drops to a "mere" 78 damage each, or 234 damage total (if each ray hits).

So banning the sudden metamagic feats makes this harder to do and do less damage but the potential for NOVA is still there.

Any comments or suggestions for limiting this further?  As a DM I find it hard to just say "no it doesn't work" without having a systemic rule of some sort to base my decision on.  I think 234 damage in one round is a bit excessive for an E6 game, although to be fair one would have to compare to what a twinked-out barbarian could do in one round as well.

   - Ron   ^*^


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## Werebat

OK, I've thought about it for a bit and I believe I have a solution.  Limit all spells to a maximum of one metamagic effect each, from any source.

If we do this, the best our twinkie could do by my reckoning (again assuming a CL of 11 for Scorching Ray) would be:

1. Sudden Maximized Scorching Ray (12d6 maximized to 72 damage)
2. Swift Quickened Scorching Ray (12d6 damage, average of 42 damage)
3. 3 CP to cast an Empowered Scorching Ray (via spellshard or memorized) -- 63 average damage

This deals a total of 177 damage on average.

Still a heck of a lot for a 7th level-equivalent character, but not incredibly over the top compared to what a twinked-out throwing rogue (for example) could do at a similar level if he also chose to nova.

What do you think?

   - Ron   ^*^


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## Werebat

Err, just for reference, this is the specifics of the E6 variant I am using in my home game:

E6 General

•	Characters progress in level as normal until reaching 6th level, at which point a bonus feat can be chosen for every 5000 experience points earned.  The character must still be able to meet the requirements of these feats in order to take them.
•	Characters also gain one hit point for every 5000 experience points earned after 6th level (two hit points if their BAB is +6), and they gain a +1 bonus to hit with all attacks for every 25000 experience points earned after 6th level.


Going Gestalt and Capstone Classes

•	Upon reaching 6th level, each character chooses to either “go gestalt” or selects a “capstone class” (which he must have taken at least one level in).
•	If a character chooses to “go gestalt”, he can choose to spend feats to acquire class abilities held by any classes that he has at least one level in.  These class abilities include actual class abilities as well as spellcaster levels, BAB, and saving throws (+1 advancement per feat spent).  He may never purchase class abilities that could not be earned by a character with six levels in the class in question.  Prestige class abilities can be earned this way so long as the level of the PrC required to achieve them could possibly have been reached by a 6th level character.
•	If a character chooses to select a capstone class, he may never spend feats to acquire class abilities as described above (not even in his capstone class).  However, he is eligible to purchase up to three “capstone feats” that are tied to his capstone class.  These feats typically grant abilities not attainable until after the 6th level of the capstone class.  If a character has less than 6 levels in his capstone class, some of the abilities gained from his capstone feats may need to be modified to account for this.


Magic Items

•	Artificers cannot use their abilities to emulate spells of higher than 3rd level.  As a result, no magic items requiring spells of higher than 3rd level are available for purchase in the markets of Sharn or any other area.
•	The caster level for the creation of any item can be lowered to the minimum level required to cast the spells needed to create it.  Thus, any item or item enhancement that requires no spell higher than 3rd level in its creation can be found in the markets of Sharn and elsewhere, so long as its other requirements could be met by a 6th level character.  Thus, Boots of Speed could be found for purchase even though their required Caster Level is officially 10th.
•	Players may request otherwise uncraftable items to be placed as treasure, and I will make an honest effort to do so at an appropriate time as long as the items do not seem disruptive to the game (especially if they are central to the character’s concept).  These “artifacts” may have been crafted long ago by giants, dragons, or even deities.


New E6 Feats

Ability Advancement (General)
Your training pays off, and one of your Abilities increases. 
Prerequisite: Ability Training in the same ability.
Benefit: Choose one Ability. You gain a permanent +2 bonus to that ability. This bonus does not stack with the benefit from Ability Training.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat it applies to another ability. 

Ability Boost (General)
Prerequisite: This feat can only be taken as a bonus feat after 6th level.
Benefit: Choose an ability.  You gain a permanent +1 bonus to that ability.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times.  Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat it applies to another ability.

Ability Training (General)
You spend time honing one of your Abilities: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma.
Prerequisite: This feat can only be taken as a bonus feat after 6th level.
Benefit: Choose one Ability; treat that Ability as having a +2 bonus to its score for the purposes of Ability Checks and Skill Checks. This bonus does not count for any other use of that ability. 
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat it applies to another ability.

Expanded Caster Stamina (General)
Prerequisite: This feat can only be taken as a bonus feat after 6th level.
Benefit: You gain one or more new spell slots, with spell levels totaling to half your caster level.  Treat a 0th-level spell slot as one half a level.  Thus, a sixth-level wizard could gain one 3rd level spell slot, or one 2nd level and one 1st level spell slots, or three new 1st level spell slots, etc.  This feat cannot provide spell slots of a level higher than you can already cast.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times.  Each time you take it you gain more spell slots.  An artificer can take the feat to gain extra infusion slots instead of spell slots.

Expanded Spell Knowledge (General)
Prerequisite: This feat can only be taken as a bonus feat after 6th level.
Benefit: You learn one or more new spells known, with spell levels totaling to half your caster level.  Treat a new 0th-level spell as having one half a level.  Thus, a sixth-level sorcerer could learn one new 3rd level spell, or one new 2nd level and one new 1st level spells, or three new 1st level spells, etc.  This feat cannot provide spells known of a level higher than you can already cast.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times.  Each time you take it you learn more new spells.


Heroic Spirit (General)
Benefit: Your Conviction point pool per session is raised to 7.  You still gain only 6 points of Conviction for raising your Death Flag.
(Note: This feat replaces the Heroic Spirit feat from the ECS)

Master of Metamagic (Metamagic)
Prerequisite: This feat can only be taken as a bonus feat after 6th level.
Benefit: As a swift action, you may apply a metamagic feat that you know to a spell you cast with no adjustment to the spell’s level.  You must spend a number of conviction points equal to the number of levels the metamagic feat would have increased the spell’s slot level by had you applied it in the traditional way.
(Note: In no case may a spell be affected by this or any other effect, metamagic or otherwise, to such a degree that it would normally have to count as a spell of higher than 9th level.  Note also that you must actually know the relevant metamagic feat in order to be able to apply it with Master of Metamagic – Swift and Sudden versions do not count)

Swift Metamagic (Metamagic)
Prerequisite: This feat can only be taken as a bonus feat after 6th level.
Benefit: When you take this feat, select a metamagic feat that increases the effective level of the spell it is applied to by a set number no greater than one.  As a swift action once per day, you may apply this metamagic feat to a spell you cast with no adjustment to the spell’s level.
Special: You may take this feat more than once, up to six times.  Each time you take it, it applies to a different metamagic feat.  Every time you take it you may increase the maximum set adjustment that your chosen metamagic feat may have by one.  Thus, the third time you take this feat, you may choose to have it apply to the Maximize Spell metamagic feat.
(Note: In no case may a spell be affected by this or any other effect, metamagic or otherwise, to such a degree that it would normally have to count as a spell of higher than 9th level)

Swift Strikes (General)
Prerequisite: This feat can only be taken as a bonus feat after 6th level.
Benefit: The cost for you to take an extra standard action is reduced to 1 Conviction point if you use that action solely to make an attack.  This will not work in conjunction with any form of spellcasting, such as Melf’s Acid Arrow.

Wondrous Rings (Item Creation)
Prerequisite: Craft Wondrous Item.  This feat can only be taken as a bonus feat after 6th level.
Benefit: You treat rings as wondrous items for the purpose of meeting item creation prerequisites.  You must still meet any other requirements for any rings you create.




Capstone Feats:

These feats are available as post-6th level feats for characters that have chosen their relevant classes as capstone classes.  The third feats in each set can only be taken after at least one of the first two.  Unless otherwise noted, no capstone feat has any other prerequisites.  Some capstone feats (such as those granting spells) may be adjusted by the DM in cases where a character has less than 6 levels in their capstone class.

Artificer:
* Accomplished Craftsman: Your Craft Reserve renews itself to 150 points.  In the future, this will happen every time you gain another feat.
* Metamagic Spell Completion (as the Artificer ability)
* Skill Mastery (as the Artificer ability)

Barbarian:
* Barbaric Toughness: You gain Damage Resistance 1/-
* Imp. Barbaric Toughness: Your DR increases to 3/- (Requires Barbaric Toughness)
* Battle Fury: You gain Greater Rage and Tireless Rage (as the Barbarian abilities)

Bard:
* Bardic Inspiration (Inspire Courage at +2 instead of +1) (Requires 3 ranks in Perform)
* Choose 1 3rd level Bard spell from a list supplied by the DM.  You may cast this spell once per day.
* Inspire Greatness (as the Bardic ability – requires 9 ranks in Perform)

Cleric:
* Extra Domain: Choose a Domain in the portfolio of your god that you do not already have access to.  You have access to this Domain, including its granted power.
* Heroic Caster: Your Caster Level is raised by +1 (to 7th) for all purposes other than spells known and spells per day.
* Heroic Spell: Choose 1 4th level Cleric spell from a list supplied by the DM.  You may cast this spell 1/day.  You may use your Spontaneous Casting ability with this spell.

Druid:
* Ferocious Slayer: You may take the Ferocious Slayer form when Shapeshifting.
* Heroic Caster: Your Caster Level is raised by +1 (to 7th) for all purposes other than spells known and spells per day.
* Heroic Spell: Choose 1 4th level Druid spell from a list supplied by the DM.  You may cast this spell 1/day.  You may use your Spontaneous Casting ability with this spell.

Fighter:
* Martial Veteran: You gain any feat requiring a +8 BAB and/or 8 levels of Fighter whose prerequisites you otherwise meet.  You can take Martial Veteran multiple times.
* Greater Weapon Specialization in any one weapon
* Martial Prowess: When you make a full attack, you get a bonus iterative attack, which has a BAB of 5 less than the lowest BAB iterative attack you would normally have.

Monk:
* Precise Flurry: You take no penalty to hit when flurrying
* Improved Evasion (as the Monk ability)
* Unarmed Prowess: You gain Greater Flurry (as the Monk ability) and your Unarmed damage goes up by one step.

Paladin:
* Holy Warrior: Choose one 2nd level Paladin spell from a list supplied by the DM.  You can cast this spell once per day.  In addition, your weapon attacks count as Good aligned for the purpose of overcoming DR.
* Exalted Might: Your Paladin level is treated as 8th for the purposes of the Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, and Turn Undead abilities.
* Righteous Knight: Your Paladin level is treated as 8th for the purpose of the Special Mount ability.

Ranger:
* Mystic Woodsman: Choose one 2nd level Ranger spell from a list supplied by the DM.  You can cast this spell once per day.  In addition, you gain the Woodland Stride and Swift Tracker Ranger abilities.
* Evasion (as the Ranger ability)
* 3rd Favored Enemy or Combat Style Mastery.  This Feat can be taken more than once.

Rogue:
* +1d6 Sneak Attack damage
* Improved Uncanny Dodge (as the Rogue ability)
* Roguish Ability: You gain any one of the 10th level Rogue special abilities.  You can take Roguish Ability multiple times; each time you take it, you gain a new special ability.

Sorcerer:
* Heroic Caster: Your Caster Level is raised by +1 (to 7th) for all purposes other than spells known and spells per day.
* Arcane Master: You gain two feats from the Wizard Bonus Feat list.
* Heroic Spell: Choose 1 4th level Sorcerer spell from a list supplied by the DM.  You may cast this spell 3/day.

Wizard:
* Heroic Caster: Your Caster Level is raised by +1 (to 7th) for all purposes other than spells known and spells per day.
* Arcane Master: You gain two feats from the Wizard Bonus Feat list.
* Heroic Spell: Choose 2 4th level Wizard spells from a list supplied by the DM.  Each day, you may choose one of these spells to prepare and cast.  If you are a specialist wizard and one of your chosen spells is from your specialized school, you can prepare it an additional time per day.


----------



## Imp

The one-metamagic-rule idea seems graceful enough. I haven't played or seriously looked at Conviction points yet but that seems to be a big contributor to nova-ing there.

Your version of E6 reads as basically equivalent to E8, power-level-wise. I'm just mentioning that because I floated the idea of an E8 game somewhere relatively early in this thread (I think) and was met with some pretty good reasons why E6 was a better cutoff point – fewer unbeatable magic effects, greater viability for low-level threats to epic characters, I don't remember all of them – just thought I should mention it.


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## Werebat

Imp said:


> The one-metamagic-rule idea seems graceful enough. I haven't played or seriously looked at Conviction points yet but that seems to be a big contributor to nova-ing there.
> 
> Your version of E6 reads as basically equivalent to E8, power-level-wise. I'm just mentioning that because I floated the idea of an E8 game somewhere relatively early in this thread (I think) and was met with some pretty good reasons why E6 was a better cutoff point – fewer unbeatable magic effects, greater viability for low-level threats to epic characters, I don't remember all of them – just thought I should mention it.



I agree that my rules make characters that are more powerful than standard E6 (and closer to E8).  Allowing players to essentially "gestalt" via feats means that they'll be probably closer to level 8 equivalent after those first 5 feats are gained.  It's worth mentioning that the list of accepted 4th level spells available for capstone feats are hand-picked by the DM (me) with an eye towards cutting out any effects that can only be overcome via magic (so no Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, for example).

I also agree about Conviction Points contributing the the Nova effect for spellcasters.  Another idea I had had was of ruling that the standard action buyable with 3 CP could not be used to cast spells.  Would have to run the math on that one.

I've also realized that a lot of the "nova" stuff I'm seeing involved one spell -- Scorching Ray.  That spell may need a little tinkering to reign it in.

The way I see it the main contributing factors are:

1. High caster levels attainable via feats and other means such as Domain Wizard
2. 3 (or more?) spells per round can be cast thanks to Conviction and Swift Quicken
3. Stacking metamagic effects to produce 9th-equivalent level spells

Limiting to one metamagic effect per spell takes care of #3.  The question of whether I would need to go further depends on how possible nova power stacks up compared to that of other classes.

It's worth mentioning that my original examples did not include the possibility of a rogue/wizard "gestalt" going for 3d6 sneak attacks (via Blink) on every scorching ray.  That kicks damage into the stratosphere.

   - Ron   ^*^


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## der_kluge

Speaking of magic items in an E6 game, I was actually thinking of writing up a bunch of magic items specific for E6 using the Artificer's Handbook rules. AH rules have a different magic item mechanic, and it relies on the number of spell slots. So, using AH, you can't actually create a 3rd level wand at 5th level. You have to be at least 7th level, unless you try creating one with a lot fewer charges.  Would there be interest in such a thing?

A secondary question - is all the E6/E8 rules collated into a single PDF document somewhere?


----------



## Werebat

Another point is that the "nova" build I mentioned works just fine even in standard E6 (provided the needed books are allowed).  My system does make it easier for chaingun throwing sneak attackers to get obnoxious, though.

Today I'm thinking that maybe the best way to go about this is to just impose an arbitrary "damage cap" on how much damage a character can deal to any given target in a round.  Maybe 125 points?  This is an even simpler rule than limiting the number of metamagic feats allowed and it strikes right to the heart of the matter.  Once it's in place, I don't have to spend any more time houseruling this loophole and that loophole because the players will just avoid ludicrous "nova" builds on their own (there would be no advantage in having them).

?

   - Ron   ^*^


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## Werebat

Yep, I think I'm gonna go with a damage cap of 100 points that extra damage from critical hits doesn't count towards.  The way I figure it, a plain old fighter with a standard build (including Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and maybe Iron Will if he's smart) and a strength of 18 using a greatsword can do close to this in one round if he's buffed...

2d6(sword)+6(strength)+2(magic)+2(specialization)= 17 points per hit on average

2 attacks (BAB) +1 (haste) +1 (conviction) = 4 attacks if he "novas"

Close to 80 damage in a round if he hits with everything, and a buff or two like Bull's Strength or bard song can easily kick this into the 100 range.

I figure if a straight fighter can do it there's no point restricting anyone else from doing it too -- so 100 points, not counting critical hits, seems about right to me.

If I'd wanted to get complex with the rules, then looking at the nova builds I've seen I'd have to have ruled:

* Only one metamagic effect per spell
* Conviction cannot be spent to cast an extra spell per round
* TWF will not stack with Rapid Shot
* There is a set limit to effective caster level (probably 10th)

   - Ron   ^*^


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## Aus_Snow

der_kluge said:


> Would there be interest in such a thing?



In general, I don't know. As far as I'm concerned though, yes.  Hopefully there'll be others too, because well, it'd be great to see what you come up with. Probably really handy stuff, and for a new E6 game of mine in particular.




> A secondary question - is all the E6/E8 rules collated into a single PDF document somewhere?



Eh, can't help you here, sorry. Anyone else know? Ryan, perhaps?


----------



## ashockney

Ryan

Congrats on a great idea, and capturing the imagination of ENWorlders.

I'm sure I saw this string of posts a yeara go, but I would NOT have jumped on it b/c my players have historically really enjoyed that high fantasy - fast powered play.  But, since the release of 4e, there's been talk about doing something a little more grim and gritty.  A stretch from their MMO ways...

Guess what I suggested?


----------



## Scurvy_Platypus

der_kluge said:


> Speaking of magic items in an E6 game, I was actually thinking of writing up a bunch of magic items specific for E6 using the Artificer's Handbook rules. AH rules have a different magic item mechanic, and it relies on the number of spell slots. So, using AH, you can't actually create a 3rd level wand at 5th level. You have to be at least 7th level, unless you try creating one with a lot fewer charges.  Would there be interest in such a thing?




Yup.



der_kluge said:


> A secondary question - is all the E6/E8 rules collated into a single PDF document somewhere?




Sort of. There's the E6 document that's posted at the beginning of the thread.

But there was an awful lot of other discussion stuff that's gone on since then. "Capstone" feats, ideas for prestige classes, some stuff about increasing casters abilities... Ryan was involved with some of it, and a lot of it was just folks going, "I think this would be cool" or "This _has_ to be added to E6, because..."

This is also the 3rd thread (maybe 4th?) that was done regarding E6 as I recall, so there's probably some little bits and pieces in the previous ones that slipped through the cracks.

Myself? I'd say to just go with the pdf at the beginning of the thread. I don't know how many people have actually run an E6/E8 game, but I know that when I ran my game, I didn't need anything other than the pdf. There's probably some good ideas through the different E6 threads, but I've got doubts as to how many of them have actually been tested in the form of actual play.

I'll admit though, I tend to prefer simpler approaches to things, and a lot of what I've seen proposed seemed to be complicating E6/E8 unnecessarily. So I didn't tend to pay it too much attention.


----------



## Angellis_ater

Regarding PDFs: http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/206323-e6-game-inside-d-d.html#post3750525 <- *points at first post* - only for E6 though.


----------



## Aus_Snow

Oh, that. Yeah. Sorry, I thought y' might have meant *all* the rules that people have come up with, or the most often referred to bits and bobs, like the incantations and so forth.

There's some good stuff here, for instance (under 'E6 work'.) And, well, in this thread too. But I haven't seen a single PDF with all that kind of stuff in it, anywhere.

Oops, I thought that wiki had incantations. . . um, someplace did. Does. I'll try and track it down again. Otherwise, I'll see if I can upload the documents I have here.


----------



## Werebat

Aus_Snow said:


> Oh, that. Yeah. Sorry, I thought y' might have meant *all* the rules that people have come up with, or the most often referred to bits and bobs, like the incantations and so forth.
> 
> There's some good stuff here, for instance (under 'E6 work'.) And, well, in this thread too. But I haven't seen a single PDF with all that kind of stuff in it, anywhere.
> 
> Oops, I thought that wiki had incantations. . . um, someplace did. Does. I'll try and track it down again. Otherwise, I'll see if I can upload the documents I have here.




I think what most people are saying is that you're best off sticking with the .pdf "core" and expanding on it as you feel a need (if you feel a need at all).  I use incantations but have only actually written one of them up (involving planar travel, needed for an upcoming jaunt into one of the planes), the others being just invoked as explanations of higher-level magic effects that pop up in game (for example an anti-gravity based trap the PCs ran into the other night).

(Though I'd love to see a list of incantations somewhere)

   - Ron   ^*^


----------



## TheWinslow

I may be naive, but I really don't see the need to houserule away somebody's build. If a player wants to be the glass cannon, then let him. 

A sixth level wizard will have, on average, 30 HP and a spot check of +5, and a ranged attack roll of +7, and perhaps AC 20, with middling to bad saving throws.

In other words, he's frail. Give him an opportunity to and he'll blast you to cinders, but what self-respecting rogue would do that? Not to mention the difficulty of casting spells in a grapple.

Finally, consider that of the classes, Wizards and Sorcerers lose the most in an E6 campaign. Losing all but the lower third of their spells is a pretty big price to pay, so letting them slowly, over the course of months, beef up their metamagic, is a good compromise.


----------



## GMforPowergamers

has there been any work on E6 for 4e?

I heard someone at WotC boarrd say it would be E10 now, is that true?


----------



## Scurvy_Platypus

GMforPowergamers said:


> has there been any work on E6 for 4e?
> 
> I heard someone at WotC boarrd say it would be E10 now, is that true?




Well, Ryan had this to say...



Ryan Stoughton said:


> GSL being what it is (revocable) I can't see myself doing a 4e version of E6.
> 
> I might do an OGL version that's a "complete game" - but I'm even more likely to do another rpg whole-cloth.  If I do a traditional RPG, I'll put it in the public domain.





Ryan Stoughton said:


> Seeing as the dead would be raised by level 8 and there's limited teleport... but the kind of "1 level of a prestige class" benefits would be at level 12.  The math is just plain different.  Guessing where to start would be a shot in the dark, and I'd have to play a lot of 4e to be able to say how it really works.  That's not tremendously likely because I'm playing non-traditional systems these days.




So any "work" is going to be coming from someone else.

Part of what you've got to ask yourself though, is what exactly it is you're trying to get from some sort of E6 for 4th Ed. Ryan had some pretty specific things he wanted to focus on when he made E6 and it resonated with other people. I'm not sure that all the people that are into 4E right now are going to be that into capping the game like E6 does.

Start a thread on it though, and see what shakes out. It could be there's a whole passel of 4E folks out there that are on the same wavelength.


----------



## Werebat

TheWinslow said:


> I may be naive, but I really don't see the need to houserule away somebody's build. If a player wants to be the glass cannon, then let him.
> 
> A sixth level wizard will have, on average, 30 HP and a spot check of +5, and a ranged attack roll of +7, and perhaps AC 20, with middling to bad saving throws.
> 
> In other words, he's frail. Give him an opportunity to and he'll blast you to cinders, but what self-respecting rogue would do that? Not to mention the difficulty of casting spells in a grapple.
> 
> Finally, consider that of the classes, Wizards and Sorcerers lose the most in an E6 campaign. Losing all but the lower third of their spells is a pretty big price to pay, so letting them slowly, over the course of months, beef up their metamagic, is a good compromise.




You may be right, and I've realized that my original "break the bank" build had an important flaw -- you can only benefit from precision damage once per spell.  This knocks damage down to about 300 points on average, which is still obscene but you have to bear in mind that all of those attacks still need to hit.

It still seems like a dragonslayer but I was looking at dragons with that number of hit points and most of them could know one or two counterspells like scintillating scales and/or ray deflection that would shut this build down before it began.

Most fighters in E6 will rapidly get to the point where they do about 120 damage per round if they nova and everything hits.  That's not counting criticals and if they're smart said fighters will be able to boost their crit potential.  I dunno.  I'm curious about how the game will play at higher power levels when characters can dish out WAY more damage than they can take.  My suspicion is that avoiding being hit will become paramount for PCs and monsters alike.

   - Ron   ^*^


----------



## Scurvy_Platypus

Werebat said:


> Most fighters in E6 will rapidly get to the point where they do about 120 damage per round if they nova and everything hits.  That's not counting criticals and if they're smart said fighters will be able to boost their crit potential.  I dunno.  I'm curious about how the game will play at higher power levels when characters can dish out WAY more damage than they can take.  My suspicion is that avoiding being hit will become paramount for PCs and monsters alike.




Are you talking about E6 "in general" or the particular version you're running?

I ran an E8 game, and I didn't have anyone doing some crazy 120 damage per round.

I guess there's people out there that like to hyper-optimize things as far as they possibly can, but... I guess I'm just not getting your point.

If the game you play/run focuses on hyper-optimizing and all that, E6/E8 isn't really going to make much of a difference in preventing it or anything like that. It boils down to "you don't level after level 6". It's not some sort of rules fixing.

I read your posts, and you seem to be talking like everybody is going to be experiencing massive balance problems or something. Earlier up thread you mentioned a fighter "with a standard build"... Maybe I missed something here the last 8 years, but I've never seen anyone in real life make that character. I'm not saying that other people _don't_, it's just you seem to be assuming a style of play that I don't see, and I don't think Ryan saw at his table either. So it's not like E6 is going to adress those issues in any way really, since it was never intended to.

It's like we're talking about 2 completely different games here. What is it that I'm missing?


----------



## GMforPowergamers

Scurvy_Platypus said:


> It's like we're talking about 2 completely different games here. What is it that I'm missing?




I get the feeling sometimes that people talk about a hypothatical game not a real one at moments like that. I hear things like CoDzilla, Healbot, Chain triper, Nova Wizard, ect. But I never play with them, even having gone to gen con for years I am yet to see one. 

       There is the game of "Build the best BUILD" and a game of "Play your character" when one talks about one, well another the other...well things get lost in translation


----------



## Nimloth

*Golden Realms III*

My group has been playing a GE7 gestalt game with a lean upward approach.  It actually fit right into the end of the last campaign which ended with the heroes (all 16/17 level characters) defeating an invasion from a Cuthullu-like God.  This epic level fight and it's consequences caused a downgrading of magic, hence no more spells above 4th level.  It also ended the Age of Mighty Heroes, thus max 7 levels.  Now, powerful weapons and items are "relics" from before the "Breaking of the World" or must be created by "powers beyond the mortal realm".

Some of the important changes are;
1- Gestalt Epic 7
Gestalt (GE7) was chosen to give characters more flexibility than an E7 approach would have allowed.  6 levels was seen as too simple and restrictive.  Gestalt allows for twice as much choice, without twice as much power.
7 was chosen because the group wanted access to 4th level spells.  

2- You must spend a feat to be able to cast 4th level spells (including 3rd level bard spells that are 4th level spells for another class).  
     1 feat per spell.  The only exception is a spontaneous Cure Critical Wounds for clerics.
The group wanted to have 4th level spells, but needing to spend feats to access them will slow down their impact on the game.  
Classes gain the ability to cast 4th level spells as normal, but can only memorize/cast metamagic lower level spells.

3- Sor/Favored Soul (and other "delayed spell progression" full caster classes) are advanced to the "regular" spell progression. 
     (same rate as wiz/cleric/druid)
This was to allow the "delayed spell progression" classes to access 4th level spells.  We could have gone to 8th level for 4th level spells, and it would've been simpiler to do it that way.  But we decided to stop at 7th and houserule the sor/favored soul as we don't really think the delayed spell progression is necessary to balance spontaneous spell casting.

4- Any non-full spellcasting class that has a "dead" level (no special abilities) at 7th is given a special ability at 7th
     (example: fighters gain the ability to ignore ability preq's on fighter feats).
Our "capstone" abilities/feats.  The ability to cast 4th level spells (3rd for bard) is the "capstone" for most spellcasting classes.

5- use a homebrewed rolling method for stats that lets the players choose between several equivalent stat sets,
     characters with LA subtract their LA from all starting abitilty scores.
We wanted more "organic" stats than point buy generally gives, but wanted the "fairness" of point buy.[sblock=our system]
Everyone rolled a set of stats (4d6, drop low, in order).  Then raise(if below)/lower (if above) to between a 22-29 point buy equivalent range by +/- 1 to all stats at a time, until they are in range. Then, anyone could pick any set of stats.

As a side rant on point buy vs Rolling;  We had 5 players roll 5 stat sets.  The stats as rolled were 60, 29, 27, 18 and 14 point buy equivalents.  This is why I generally abhor rolling, and I've been on both sides of this issue, "Godlike" vs "simply heroic" stats.  Well, thats enough of that issue.
[/sblock]6- PRC become feat chains.
7- Incantations from UA.


The characters have just starting getting to 7th level, but as the DM I have been making GE7+feats npc's for awhile and I like it.  An important aspect of GE7 is that all my (classed/humanoid) villians are at least a little vulnerable to luck/clever planning on the heroes part.  Organizations/minions/allies have become a lot more important to a villian's threat level.    The only problem we had was we started with a different LA system.  Basically, you lost x2 LA in class levels on 1 side of the Gestalt.  That didn't work.  The character (a halfdragon fighter) lost flexibility, but gained much more power in her specialty (hitting things really hard).  The method in 5 (above) works much better.


----------



## Werebat

Nimloth said:


> 5- use a homebrewed rolling method for stats that lets the players choose between several equivalent stat sets,
> characters with LA subtract their LA from all starting abitilty scores.




I like this a lot.  Think I'll use it in the future.

   - Ron   ^*^


----------



## Werebat

Scurvy_Platypus said:


> Are you talking about E6 "in general" or the particular version you're running?
> 
> I ran an E8 game, and I didn't have anyone doing some crazy 120 damage per round.
> 
> I guess there's people out there that like to hyper-optimize things as far as they possibly can, but... I guess I'm just not getting your point.
> 
> If the game you play/run focuses on hyper-optimizing and all that, E6/E8 isn't really going to make much of a difference in preventing it or anything like that. It boils down to "you don't level after level 6". It's not some sort of rules fixing.
> 
> I read your posts, and you seem to be talking like everybody is going to be experiencing massive balance problems or something. Earlier up thread you mentioned a fighter "with a standard build"... Maybe I missed something here the last 8 years, but I've never seen anyone in real life make that character. I'm not saying that other people _don't_, it's just you seem to be assuming a style of play that I don't see, and I don't think Ryan saw at his table either. So it's not like E6 is going to adress those issues in any way really, since it was never intended to.
> 
> It's like we're talking about 2 completely different games here. What is it that I'm missing?




First, thanks for your response.

The standard Fighter build I was talking about was something like this:

1. F1 * * (Power Attack, Cleave)
2. F2 * (Weapon Focus: Greatsword)
3. F3 * (Iron Will)
4. F4 * (Weapon Specialization: Greatsword) [+1 Str]
5. F5
6. F6 * * (Great Cleave, Something Else)

* Martial Veteran (Greater Weapon Focus)
* Weapon Specialization Greatsword
* Martial Prowess
* Swift Strikes
* Ability Boost (+1 Str)

Assuming a Strength of 18 at start.  By the end Strength is 20, add Gauntlets of Ogre Power for a Str of 22.

If we pump the bonii from WF and GWF into PA every time, and get a +2 Greatsword, each hit is going to do 2d6+9(Str)+4(Spec)+2(Magic)+4(PA) = 26 average damage.

3 Attacks per round via Martial Prowess, +1 via Swift Strikes, +1 via Haste (if we're going to nova we're going to buff) means 5 attacks per round.  If they all hit that's over 120 damage.

This isn't a terribly intricate build, it's just using the feats available intelligently.  There are many ways to boost it further.

So I guess much of this is dependent on my own variant.  It's worth noting that I had noticed the overall advantage offered to wizards with traditional E6 (the supernova build I posted earlier pretty much works the same in traditional E6) and wanted to help nudge the melee types up a bit -- maybe this was a mistake.

   - Ron   ^*^


----------



## Werebat

GMforPowergamers said:


> I get the feeling sometimes that people talk about a hypothatical game not a real one at moments like that. I hear things like CoDzilla, Healbot, Chain triper, Nova Wizard, ect. But I never play with them, even having gone to gen con for years I am yet to see one.
> 
> There is the game of "Build the best BUILD" and a game of "Play your character" when one talks about one, well another the other...well things get lost in translation




Hm, well my last game DID have a CoDzilla and a chaingun thrower (both of whom worked together to bring about a sort of anticlimactic end to the endgame boss, now that I think of it).  Honestly I have 2 super powergamers, 1-2 "efficient builders", and 2-3 "not-so-efficient-builders" in my game.  One of my challenges is to try to keep things challenging for the very efficient builders while not wiping the floor with those with less efficient builds (and sometimes tactics).

A common problem, I know.

   - Ron   ^*^


----------



## der_kluge

Scurvy_Platypus said:


> So any "work" is going to be coming from someone else.




I want to be that someone else.

I want to create an E6/E8 Bible. 

Who wants to help?


----------



## Mokona

der_kluge said:


> Who wants to help?



Do you want help with a 4th edition E6 or 3rd/3.5 edition?


----------



## Runestar

> I get the feeling sometimes that people talk about a hypothatical game not a real one at moments like that. I hear things like CoDzilla, Healbot, Chain triper, Nova Wizard, ect. But I never play with them, even having gone to gen con for years I am yet to see one.




Well, in the very least, healbot and nova wizards are easily 2 of the most inefficient ways of playing your casters, so I wouldn't be surprised that they rarely ever get played.


----------



## der_kluge

Mokona said:


> Do you want help with a 4th edition E6 or 3rd/3.5 edition?




3.x.  I can't imagine why anyone would bother trying to create an E6 variant in 4e. I'm just not sure there's a reason to do so.


----------



## Nimloth

der_kluge said:


> I want to be that someone else.
> 
> I want to create an E6/E8 Bible.
> 
> Who wants to help?



What do you mean, an "E6/E8 Bible"?


----------



## Pat

I'll help.


----------



## der_kluge

Nimloth said:


> What do you mean, an "E6/E8 Bible"?




A PDF detailing all the nuances of running an E6/E8 game.

For example, I've already revised all the dragons to make them a little more approachable in terms of power levels. I've also got a massive document in the works covering all the gotchas with regards to magic item creation.

Some of the other areas I want to cover include:
What magic items simply can't exist in an E6/E8 game because of magic constraints.
What monsters should be available - what monsters represent extremely difficult (epic) fights?
Any modifications to spells - for example, detect magic should work slightly differently because 5th level spells would be considered "overpowering" in an E8 game.
All the epic feats.
Player build ideas
House rule options
mods to prestige classes

Anything else I think of along the way.

My goal is to basically allow GMs to toss their PHB/DMG/MM in favor of the E6/E8 bible since it will only have all the relevant stuff in it that they, or their players, would care about. - Well, ok, maybe not the MM, that's a lot of duplicated work right there, but at least the DMG, and chunks of the PHB.


Having ran an E8 game for the last year, I think there are some unique situations that arise that having a "bible" will make a lot easier to resolve.


----------



## Nimloth

*E# "bible"*

So did you want to start a new thread, or just continue in this one?


----------



## der_kluge

Those who would like to help - 

email me @gmail.com

curtis.bennett is the name.

I'll set up a yahoogroup for this.

Unless you guys prefer a thread on here.  I'm not sure I prefer that option, though.


----------



## El Mahdi

der_kluge said:


> I'll set up a yahoogroup for this.
> 
> Unless you guys prefer a thread on here. I'm not sure I prefer that option, though.




Just as long as you make a link or attachment here on ENWorld when it's done (either in this thread or in the downloads section).


----------



## SPECTRE666

Great thread btw. In the PDF it doesn't show page 4 and 8 for me.

I just discovered this idea from another forum, and I love it. Its the D&D I would like to play. My game group, well I will find out. 

Great thread again


----------



## NN

I have a dumb question: it may already be answered in the 24 pages, but i am too lazy to read them all.

Why not just monkey with the xp tables so that progression is slower and progression above level X (6,8, or whatever) is _really_ slow?


----------



## Aus_Snow

NN said:


> I have a dumb question: it may already be answered in the 24 pages, but i am too lazy to read them all.
> 
> Why not just monkey with the xp tables so that progression is slower and progression above level X (6,8, or whatever) is _really_ slow?



You could do that, of course. It wouldn't be E6, E8 or the like. But sure, you could do it.

Basically, E6 caters to a different style of play, which some believe (or indeed, have found) higher levels in D&D disrupt/detract from/destroy/otherwise mess with. A division of the 20 levels into four sections of five levels each is referred to in the original text of E6: 1-5 = sword & sorcery [?]; 6-10 = heroic; 11-15 = wuxia; 16-20 = superheroes. Something like that. So, it's fairly easy to see there what E6 is focusing on, and/or what it might be avoiding.

For a somewhat more 'sword & sorcery-like' (grittier, lower magic, etc.) feel, E6 works better than your suggestion would. Your suggestion, on the other hand, would do a better job of _somewhat_ emulating AD&D-style play (or at least, rates of leveling). Or a hybrid thingy. Anyway, around that area.

It works well, I've found, but I know there are many gamers who would recoil in horror. In fact, I did at first.  Then, eventually, I warmed to it. The rest is history.


----------



## Scurvy_Platypus

NN said:


> I have a dumb question: it may already be answered in the 24 pages, but i am too lazy to read them all.
> 
> Why not just monkey with the xp tables so that progression is slower and progression above level X (6,8, or whatever) is _really_ slow?




Because it's not just a matter of "characters progress too fast". It's a matter of "I don't like that the world (characters, NPCs, and monsters) continue to simply get bigger and bigger".

It's kinda like some of those rpg games I played back in the day on consoles. At "first level" you'd start out inflicting 150 points of damage with each attack. By the time you finish out the game, you're doing thousands and thousands of points of damage.

Of course, the monsters have thousands and thousands of hit points.

All that's happened is the numbers got inflated.

Running an E6/E8 game stops the number inflation. Hit points, skills, saves...all of it. There's a finite limit and it doesn't take more than a year of play to reach it.

One problem with slowly down XP gain, is it leads (or has the potential) to a feeling of "stagnation". You keep showing up session after session, and your character just doesn't change or do anything. People _like_ to level. They want new bits for their character. That's why E6/E8 goes with the feats after you hit the level cap. That way the character can continue to "grow" without having a massive inflation everywhere.



Aus_Snow said:


> Your suggestion, on the other hand, would do a better job of _somewhat_ emulating AD&D-style play (or at least, rates of leveling). Or a hybrid thingy. Anyway, around that area.




Sort of.

See, the thing I noticed? AD&D had "slow" leveling because most of the DMs saw the rules for giving XP for treasure and said, "Screw THAT!!! They got the gold, they're lucky to be alive. No way they're going to double dip and get XP for getting the gold too. The gold is its own damn reward."

Hand out XP for gold like you were _supposed_ to do, and the leveling rates aren't really _that_ different. It's just that 3rd ed rolled around and the XP became all focused on killing things, instead of killing things and taking their stuff.


----------



## Aus_Snow

Scurvy_Platypus said:


> Sort of.
> 
> See, the thing I noticed? AD&D had "slow" leveling because most of the DMs saw the rules for giving XP for treasure and said, "Screw THAT!!! They got the gold, they're lucky to be alive. No way they're going to double dip and get XP for getting the gold too. The gold is its own damn reward."
> 
> Hand out XP for gold like you were _supposed_ to do, and the leveling rates aren't really _that_ different. It's just that 3rd ed rolled around and the XP became all focused on killing things, instead of killing things and taking their stuff.



Good point.

Heh, and I forgot to mention the other _huge_ reason for E6's appeal, which you pretty much covered: the numbers, buffs, etc.


----------



## Frostmarrow

I think it's possible to run PrCs from the start in E6. Prerequisites are transformed into bonus feats and then you gain levels in the PrC of your choice up until 6th level.

I don't think a PrC outshines a basic class. Besides all viable, as in DM-approved, PrCs are available to any player.

Look at the *Duelist*:

d10

Bonus feats:
Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse

Progression:
1st +1 +0 +2 +0 Canny defense 
2nd +2 +0 +3 +0 Improved reaction +2 
3rd +3 +1 +3 +1 Enhanced mobility 
4th +4 +1 +4 +1 Grace 
5th +5 +1 +4 +1 Precise strike +1d6 
6th +6 +2 +5 +2 Acrobatic charge

Class Skills
The duelist’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Tumble (Dex). 

Skill Points at Each Level
4 + Int modifier. 

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
The duelist is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, but no type of armor or shield. 

Canny Defense (Ex)
When not wearing armor or using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus. 

Improved Reaction (Ex)
At 2nd level, a duelist gains a +2 bonus on initiative checks. 

Enhanced Mobility (Ex)
When wearing no armor and not using a shield, a duelist gains an additional +4 bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity caused when she moves out of a threatened square. 

Grace (Ex)
At 4th level, a duelist gains an additional +2 competence bonus on all Reflex saving throws. This ability functions for a duelist only when she is wearing no armor and not using a shield. 

Precise Strike (Ex)
At 5th level, a duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, gaining an extra 1d6 damage added to her normal damage roll. 

When making a precise strike, a duelist cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield. A duelist’s precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to a precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike. At 10th level, the extra damage on a precise strike increases to +2d6. 

Acrobatic Charge (Ex)
At 6th level, a duelist gains the ability to charge in situations where others cannot. She may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement. Depending on the circumstance, she may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain.


----------



## Scurvy_Platypus

Frostmarrow said:


> I think it's possible to run PrCs from the start in E6. Prerequisites are transformed into bonus feats and then you gain levels in the PrC of your choice up until 6th level.




I'm sure there's Prestige Classes that'll outshine the core classes, which is probably a problem for some folks out there. Personally, it doesn't matter to me that much. If you're actually starting out with a PrC instead of a base class.

If you're allowing PrCs, chances are that people are going to be more keen on those than the base classes anyway.

Instead of jumping through all sorts of funky hoops and trying to do some sort of capstone feat-chain and all that, I'd just treat 'em as a base class and move on from there. If there's some sort of special PrC ability that kicks all kinds of ass, and OMG IT'S SO UNFAIR TO OTHER PLAYERS!!! either remove the offending ability outright, or simply make it cost an additional feat. It's not that hard.

From what I've seen, PrCs often seem to be one-trick ponies. So they might get a cool gimmick or whatnot, but they're running a decent chance of being weaker compared to a full class.

Then again, I don't believe in forcing players to have to earn the right to be cool with their character. Some folks want to use E6/E8 as a way of capping player power, I use it as a way of making the game (and my life as a GM) easier.

*_Very_* different philosophies. People that are looking at E6/E8 should think about _why_ they're doing it (restricting players/making GM's life easier) and adjust accordingly.


----------



## wolfpunk

Uhmm, just off the top of my head, one prestige class that would break the E6 mold would be the Ur-Priest, since if I recall correctly, they gain access to a new level of spells at each level. If that is correct he would have access to 6th level divine spells when he got to 6th level.

Other than that, I have thought of the same idea myself, and I think plenty of prestige classes could be used as base classes without much of a problem. Perhaps give it a try and let us know how it goes.


----------



## vagabundo

Hmm it might be an  interesting experiment to only allow PrCs and no base classes.

They tend to have a strong focus, it would be similar to the Warhammer Careers model. 

Here is the list from the SRD:



> Prestige Classes
> Arcane Archer
> Arcane Trickster
> Archmage
> Assassin
> Blackguard
> Dragon Disciple
> Duelist
> Dwarven Defender
> Eldritch Knight
> Hierophant
> Horizon Walker
> Loremaster
> Mystic Theurge
> Shadowdancer
> Thaumaturgist




Looking at the list, I think, it would have to be expanded a bit. Not sure if there is a database of OGL classes out there. All the splats came out with extra PrC's so you could have a very functional list of classes quite quickly.

The base classes of the world would be the NPC, the PC's would be special!


----------



## Sanglorian

vagabundo said:


> Hmm it might be an  interesting experiment to only allow PrCs and no base classes.





 I would recommend making both base and prestige classes available. Sometimes, the base class fills a niche better than a prestige class does - and it seems unfair to limit (typically) less powerful classes in favour of more powerful classes.


 If you do a bit of rummaging around, you can find plenty of prestige classes here (as well as some base classes).


----------



## vagabundo

Sanglorian said:


> I would recommend making both base and prestige classes available. Sometimes, the base class fills a niche better than a prestige class does - and it seems unfair to limit (typically) less powerful classes in favour of more powerful classes.
> 
> 
> If you do a bit of rummaging around, you can find plenty of prestige classes here (as well as some base classes).




Ahhh that is the list I was looking for, thanks.

True, using only PrCs it might be hard to find a particular Character concept. But for my players they tend to make Character decisions very impulsively. If I gave them a list of classes - from a PrC list - they would play what sounded cool to them, otherwise they tend to be very conservative and generic in their class selection. 

I'm not sure how viable a long term game would be using only PrC's but it would be interesting to see if it broke them out of their rut regarding class selection.


----------



## wolfpunk

Been thinking about the prestige class as base class concept.  There are definitely some prestige classes that I think would make great six level classes. Prestige Classes like the Eldritch Knight are perfect for creating that fighter mage in a low level campaign. Heck if you do e7 or e8 you could start as an eldritch knight and if you played human you could take the required armor feats and actually take levels of spellsword as a prestige class and you would have an armored caster.

I definitely think that if you went on a case by case basis you could go through the DM Guide and most splat books fairly quickly to determine which prestige classes fit into the power level and which ones do not.

Then again, even some classes like assassin grant a pretty good ability in their first level or two. You could easily house rule a list of PrC that can be accessed at 5th or 6th level with a set of reduced criteria.

Personally I think a 6th level Blood Magus would make a great bbeg in an e6 campaign.


----------



## vagabundo

I dont think the power differential would be that great. I think it would be manageable at the levels 1-6 and players could make really interesting characters using PrCs. PrCs always had a more focused and, usually, interesting fluff. This could focus a game or setting and add an extra dose of flavour that  can be missing from a standard DND game.

It would probably be possible to expand the paragon race classes. So you could have a 6th level Dwarf. Or it would be possible to run a very old style basic DND game using 3e E6 rules.


----------



## Sanglorian

vagabundo said:


> It would probably be possible to expand the paragon race classes. So you could have a 6th level Dwarf. Or it would be possible to run a very old style basic DND game using 3e E6 rules.




You're pretty much in luck: these paragon classes go from level 1 to 5, so you've only got to add one level.

---

One idea suggested at E6's very beginning was running SWSE6: Star Wars with the E6 rules. SWSE works particularly well because it follows a steady talent-feat-talent-feat-talent-feat progression, so when you hit epic level you can keep acquiring feats and talents.

In SWSE6 I would allow people to progress up the class features line of a prestige class, one step per talent/feat they give up (as long as they meet all the prestige class' prerequisites besides BAB and level). So for example a level 9 jedi could have the feats, features and talents of a 9th level jedi or a jedi 6/force adept 3, etc.


----------



## Kingreaper

I'm considering running a variation of this using the gestalt rules.

Everyone starts at about level 5, with 2 or 3 of those levels being levels of Commoner (modified to have d8 hitdie and a good fortitude) or Aristocrat (with d4 hitdie); and the rest being levels of classes of their choice.

After hitting 6, I'm gonna let them add new class levels in gestalt with their old ones, in exchange for not taking the feats at that point. (probably meaning they'll soon be rid of any meaningful influence from the commoner or aristrocrat levels)

Are there any major problems with this approach? I haven't finalised balance on commoner V Aristocrat, any hints? (or advice on how to balance in the other NPC classes as well)


----------



## wolfpunk

Ok to make sure I understand correctly. If I was playing in your campaign, I would make a character say a 3rd level warrior 3rd level wizard. I then get to add another 6 levels. So could I choose to take another 6 levels of wizard and thus be a 9th level wizard, or can I only take 3 levels of wizard and then 3 levels of a different class or prc?

I have had the same idea of doing gestalt with npc classes. So you can be a warrior wizard or an expert fighter, but still only getting 6 class levels. I prefer to run e7 actually, but that is beside the point.

I am wondering, if you run your gestalt idea, and lets say I can become a 9th level wizard, perhaps spells still cap at 3rd level, but you get the higher level spell slots for use of metamagic feats, that could be pretty cool.

Just a thought.

On a side note getting back to the idea of prestige classes as base classes, what does someone think about the eldritch knight as a base class. You get 3rd level spells as a wizard or 2nd level spells as a sorcerer, full bab, one good save and d6 hit points, but you do not have any armor or weapon proficiencies. In the long run with the extra feats you can purchase the weapon and armor proficiencies you want, but more than likely you are going to use an early feat to get a weapon proficiency, so how do we feel that balances out? Would an eldritch knight make the wizard or sorcerer obsolete? What if the eldritch knight had to be a sorcerer, would that be more balanced?

I am leaning that way, let the eldritch knight exist but they use the sorcerer spell progression.


----------



## Salthorae

Just a quick note, under Gestalt rules you can't take the same class at the same levels. 

SO you can't do warrior 3/wizard 3 // wizard 6 as for the last three levels those wizard levels overlap. If you choose classes that give the same bonus, they only accrue at the faster classes rate (not both). the example given is Uncanny Dodge. A Barbarian 5/Rogue 5 would only gain the Improved Uncanny Dodge of of the Barbarian at 5th level, and use the feature as a Barbarian 5. It wouldn't gain Uncanny Dodge at Barbarian 2 and then improved uncanny dodge at 4 just because the rogue gains Uncanny Dodge at 4, since Barbarian is the "faster rate" for uncanny dodge you only get it from Barbarian class...

So in this example you would waste 3 gestalt levels as an effective Warrior 3/Wizard 6, not Warrior 3/Wizard 9

SRD Gestalt Rules
[sblock=Gestalt Level up quote]A gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a new level, *he chooses two classes*, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics. A few caveats apply, however. (Emphasis mine)[/sblock]


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## Kingreaper

wolfpunk said:


> Ok to make sure I understand correctly. If I was playing in your campaign, I would make a character say a 3rd level warrior 3rd level wizard. I then get to add another 6 levels. So could I choose to take another 6 levels of wizard and thus be a 9th level wizard, or can I only take 3 levels of wizard and then 3 levels of a different class or prc?



Only 3 more levels of wizard.

But you don't only get to gestalt two classes. Eventually you could be a (Fighter 2+Warrior 3)/Wizard 6/cleric 6, or whatever. But you'd have less feats than your buddy the (Thief-acrobat 3+Aristocrat 3)/Rogue 6; and no more hitdice.

Eventually, you'll have a lot of cool powers, but no ridiculous ones.
And for a long time, you'll keep that touch of who you once were. You, like everyone else, started off with NPC classes.

Of course, picking what prestige classes are acceptable to add in as gestalts will give some issues.



> I have had the same idea of doing gestalt with npc classes. So you can be a warrior wizard or an expert fighter, but still only getting 6 class levels. I prefer to run e7 actually, but that is beside the point.
> 
> I am wondering, if you run your gestalt idea, and lets say I can become a 9th level wizard, perhaps spells still cap at 3rd level, but you get the higher level spell slots for use of metamagic feats, that could be pretty cool.
> 
> Just a thought.



That would be an interesting option; not what I had in mind though.


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## wolfpunk

Anyone run an e6 campaign using gestalt rules where one half of the gestalt is using the monster class levels from Savage Species?

Seems like it could make for a great planar campaign considering many of the monsters get plane shift at 6th level.


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## ATNorth

Thanks.  Just, thanks.  What I've been looking for since forever.


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## Kunimatyu

ATNorth said:


> Thanks.  Just, thanks.  What I've been looking for since forever.




E6 rocks. If I was playing 3.5 instead of Savage Worlds(my current favorite RPG), it's what I'd be doing.

I'd advise NOT house-ruling it at first, despite the temptation to do so - it works very very well on its own. If you really really want to, I'd recommend the "capstone" feats you'll find earlier in the thread.

Oh, and when Ryan is talking about the Death Flag, listen. It's almost better than E6 by itself.


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## Werebat

Here's an Incantation I use in my E6 campaign.  Sort of a replacement for Teleport as used to nip off to sell loot and buy supplies:


Brass Bazaar of Nasab Pasha Al-Haruf
Conjuration
Effective Level: 6th
Skill Check: Knowledge (arcana) DC 22, 3 successes; Knowledge (planes) DC 22, 3 successes (but see below)
Failure: Special
Components: V, S, M, B
Casting Time: 60 minutes
Range: Very Close (See Below)
Duration: 6 Hours
Saving Throw: None (DC 19 Backlash)
Spell Resistance: No

Created by one of the great Pashas of the fabled City of Brass, this incantation gates in a powerful efreet in the Pasha's service for the sole purpose of trading with the caster (and his or her allies, time permitting).  The efreet is under no compulsion to serve the caster and maintains its own free will, but it is tasked by its master to provide service in the form of purchasing and selling valuable items.
	The magic of the incantation enables the efreet to return home as a standard action and then come back once, if it chooses.  This allows it to take valuables back to its master's vaults and return with items purchased by the caster.  These vaults are extensive, allowing the caster to buy and sell as if in a large city.
	When the incantation is cast, the caster may choose to attract the aid of the efreet by offering it a consideration for itself; this is identical in effect to using an "expensive material component", but anything non-flammable may be used.  An offering worth 500 gp or more will subtract 1 from the DCs required to complete the invocation, an offering worth 5000 gp or more will subtract 2, and one worth at least 25,000 gp will lower the DCs by 4 points.
	During the incantation, the temperature around the caster will grow steadily warmer and drier until it exceeds 110 degrees.  After the first 10 minutes of casting, the caster and all within a 20' radius must make Fortitude saves every 10 minutes or suffer the effects of severe heat, as described on page 303 of the DMG.  When the incantation is completed, the efreet will arrive in an explosion of elemental flame, effectively a 10d6 fireball centered on the caster.
	In general, the genie will honor its bargains, but those who deal with the efreet are wise to do so from a position of strength and some degree of skepticism.  One must be careful to avoid offending the genie, however.  It is under no compulsion to serve the caster and its true master is generally understanding if it leaves abruptly or even attacks in response to having been insulted by mere mortals.  There are many, many ways to offend an efreet, and a caster who appears weak and vulnerable with a large amount of valuables can be assured that the genie will be looking for an excuse to relieve him of them.
	It goes without saying that a failed attempt at completing this invocation is highly insulting to the efreet, who will attack immediately if it thinks itself likely to win and vanish if it thinks not (taking any offering with it, of course).  Those who kill an efreet conjured by this spell are noted by the Pasha, who may or may not take action against them.


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## Werebat

Here's another Incantation I use in my E6 game, which is set in Eberron (some bits of it involving Manifest Zones won't make sense for other game worlds)


Manifest Passage
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Effective Level: 6th
Skill Check: Knowledge (Arcana) DC 25, 3 Successes; Knowledge (The Planes) DC 25, 3 Successes
Failure: Special
Components: V, S, M, F, XP
Casting Time: 60 minutes
Range: Touch
Target or Targets: Yourself plus up to seven other willing creatures joining hands
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) (DC 16 + caster's Cha modifier)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

If successfully cast within a manifest zone, this incantation will transport the caster and up to seven willing creatures who participate in the incantation to the part of the plane that the manifest zone connects to.  While this is a one-way trip, the destination is typically a manifest zone leading to Eberron, so it is possible to return via another casting of the incantation.  The specific destination is always a random point somewhere within the manifest zone, as close to solid ground and in an environment that is as close to habitable as possible for the caster considering the destination plane.

Failure: If two consecutive knowledge checks are failed, a denizen of the plane that is trying to be reached is wrenched through the weakened fabric between the planes.  This creature is not controlled by the caster and will not automatically return home.  It will most likely be at least annoyed with the caster and may choose to attack or flee the scene to cause trouble nearby, depending on its nature.

Focus: Each plane has its own focus that must be used to complete the incantation required to reach it; reaching Lammania requires ritual slashing of the barriers between worlds with a specially crafted silver dagger set with moonstones, for example.  A DC 25 Knowledgelanes check is required to know the exact nature of these foci or to recognize one, although a list of them is generally included in any tome including the incantation.  Regardless of their actual composition, each of these foci is worth 5,000 gp.

XP Component: 100 XP.

Campaign Use: This incantation provides E6 epic-level (or very brave/foolhardy lower-level) PCs with a means of travel between the planes connected to the world of Eberron.  Such passage is not without its danger or cost and is not likely to be attempted frivolously.  Most communities located on or near manifest zones (such as Sharn) are aware of this incantation and have officially outlawed (or at least tightly restricted) its use for fear of marauding Outsiders that could be pulled through the planes to cause them trouble should a caster fail to complete the rituals properly.


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## slwoyach

Werebat said:


> Brass Bazaar of Nasab Pasha Al-Haruf
> Conjuration
> Effective Level: 6th




I really like this incantation.


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## Werebat

slwoyach said:


> I really like this incantation.




Well thanks!  I think one of the key areas for E6 that still needs work is an expanded incantation list.  The way to start is to think of aspects of high-level play that one wants at least certain facets of in an E6 game.  Being able to return a petrified character to flesh again is one example -- the "Brass Bazaar" incantation is another (it enables the party to cash in and outfit themselves when they're far away from civilization for extended periods of time).

In my Eberron game, I have the higher level dragonmarks (unattainable in E6) converted to incantations that can only be performed by people with the appropriate dragonmark at the highest level attainable in E6.  For example, there is an incantation that basically mimics the "Heal" spell that can only be performed by halflings who possess the Lesser Dragonmark of House Jorasco.

   - Ron   ^*^


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## GMforPowergamers

Werebat said:


> In my Eberron game, I have the higher level dragonmarks (unattainable in E6) converted to incantations that can only be performed by people with the appropriate dragonmark at the highest level attainable in E6.  For example, there is an incantation that basically mimics the "Heal" spell that can only be performed by halflings who possess the Lesser Dragonmark of House Jorasco.
> 
> - Ron   ^*^




if nothing else this alone makes me love e6...the dragon mark of healing is the best healer in the world....


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## Werebat

GMforPowergamers said:


> if nothing else this alone makes me love e6...the dragon mark of healing is the best healer in the world....




As it should be.  It's worth mentioning that one of the authors of the 4E Eberron setting mentioned one of the problems with 3E dragonmarks was that they didn't successfully capture this in their mechanics (Jorasco cleric was just a cleric who could cast a couple of extra spells, or a rogue who could cast CLW, not "the best healer in the land").

I did modify some of the greater marks, for example House Orien's "teleport" mark only teleports to specific Orien teleportation circles, maintained at all major House Orien bases.  Even so, this makes Orien THE fastest way to travel -- if you've got the money.

   - Ron   ^*^


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## slwoyach

If anyone's interested, I started an E6 group at the WotC site.  Right now it only has a single wiki page with a link to this thread and the pdf, but hey you gotta start somewhere.

Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible


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## Stegyre

Count me as yet another fan of E6. I've been working on my own variation and would appreciate some critique and feedback of the following proposal:

While limiting characters to six total character levels and hit dice, I'm planning to allow characters to "rebuild" character levels in a process akin to the rebuilding discussed in PHBII:

For the expenditure of 5,000 XP, a character may exchange one existing class level for any other class level for which the character meets the prerequisites. A class level that forms an essential prerequisite for another class level cannot be rebuilt. The character must first rebuild an existing class level before any of that class level’s prerequisites may be rebuilt. If a class level that forms the prerequisite for an existing feat is rebuilt, that feat is lost and will have to be repurchased if the character ever again meets the qualifications. If a class level that forms the prerequisite for an existing maneuver or spell slot is lost, the maneuver or spell slot is likewise lost. Known spells for memorized casters (e.g., wizards) are not lost but may not be cast if the character lacks the necessary spell slots. 

Because in many cases a prestige class may provide its own prerequisites, this technique may permit a character to rebuild one or more of the underlying class levels with prestige levels. This is possible even in the case of prestige classes granting caster level increases: even if all of the underlying caster levels are rebuilt, the prestige class levels “remember” their original derivation and are not affected by that rebuilding. For example, if a prestige class had a prerequisite that a character be able to cast 3rd level arcane spells and added a caster level at each prestige level, the character could, with 25,000 XP, replace all five of the original caster levels with prestige levels, which would still count (for spell purposes) as caster levels of the original class.

In all cases of rebuilding, a character’s BAB, saving rolls, skill points, class- and cross-class skills, power points, powers, class abilities, etc., are recalculated based upon the character’s new combination of class levels.


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## Votan

Stegyre said:


> In all cases of rebuilding, a character’s BAB, saving rolls, skill points, class- and cross-class skills, power points, powers, class abilities, etc., are recalculated based upon the character’s new combination of class levels.




How do you handle hit points when the hit die changes?  Or are they not rolled in your game?


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## Salthorae

Has anyone tried E6 Pathfinder RPG? Thoughts? Experiences?


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## Stegyre

Votan said:


> How do you handle hit points when the hit die changes? Or are they not rolled in your game?



 The same as the regular rebuilding rules:  for each step up or down in the dice (e.g., d4 to d6, d12 to d10), add or subtract one hit point.  Essentially, you are making the "average" adjustment to each die, as the averages move in step:  2.5, 3.5, 4.5, 5.5 and 6.5.

That being said, I'm actually working to refine the Injury Alternative (Unearthed Arcana), as I'm not really a fan of HD, but one step at a time, one step at a time.


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## Herobizkit

I haven't read the whole thread, so I apologize in advance if this has already been covered.

Has anyone ever asked if they could use a Prestige Class 'as is' for their 6 levels?   I've done this with some success in d20 Modern (making the Mage and Acolye available at 1st level as opposed to "wasting" 3 General levels before qualifying, for example).

The onus on the player would be that, at some point in the character's career, they obtain the required pre-requisites to 'qualify' for their class.  Any PrC requiring more than 10 ranks in a skill will need special consideration, of course.  Optionally, you could just drop the pre-reqs altogether.  Thoughts?


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## AslanC

Salthorae said:


> Has anyone tried E6 Pathfinder RPG? Thoughts? Experiences?




I would be very interested in knowing as well.

I haven't picked up Pathfinder yet but my desire to do so would be affected by an answer to this question, positive or negative. 

Thanks.


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## CapnZapp

Kunimatyu said:


> Oh, and when Ryan is talking about the Death Flag, listen. It's almost better than E6 by itself.



From a 4E perspective, would you (you all, not only Kunimatyu) agree this is a fair summary of "death flags":

* Normally, you aren't killable. Whenever you fall to minus your bloodied value, fail three death saves, succumb to the final state of disease or monster powers etc etc you simply stay in the Dying state. All other rules apply normally (meaning that you revive at the end of each encounter per the regular rules for Dying). 
* The player and DM are encouraged to cooperate in explaining what happened and why "fate" allowed the PC to escape death.
* You can "raise your death flag" enabling your character's death. This gives you 6 bonus Action Points to be used as you please during the day (before the next Extended Rest) - no restrictions (if you're level 11+; you could spend them all to gain six more uses out of your paragon path's action point ability during one and the same round, for example)
* You can "lower your death flag" by spending 6 APs; or you can simply tough it out until you take an extended rest.
* I don't have to add this rule is primarily geared towards campaigns where the Raise Dead ritual is unavailable or at least much more of a Big Deal.


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## joela

*New Year*

It's been a while. How's everyone's E6 campaigns coming along?


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## Kunimatyu

CapnZapp said:


> From a 4E perspective, would you (you all, not only Kunimatyu) agree this is a fair summary of "death flags":
> 
> * Normally, you aren't killable. Whenever you fall to minus your bloodied value, fail three death saves, succumb to the final state of disease or monster powers etc etc you simply stay in the Dying state. All other rules apply normally (meaning that you revive at the end of each encounter per the regular rules for Dying).
> * The player and DM are encouraged to cooperate in explaining what happened and why "fate" allowed the PC to escape death.
> * You can "raise your death flag" enabling your character's death. This gives you 6 bonus Action Points to be used as you please during the day (before the next Extended Rest) - no restrictions (if you're level 11+; you could spend them all to gain six more uses out of your paragon path's action point ability during one and the same round, for example)
> * You can "lower your death flag" by spending 6 APs; or you can simply tough it out until you take an extended rest.
> * I don't have to add this rule is primarily geared towards campaigns where the Raise Dead ritual is unavailable or at least much more of a Big Deal.




Sounds good to me, CZ. I particularly like the idea of having to "pay" your AP back to reset your flag before an Extended Rest.

It's also worth noting that Dying PCs my have items broken or semi-permanent injuries inflicted - the Death Flag prevents outright death, but it's not a free ticket to prevent Bad Stuff in general.


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## pawsplay

I like the idea of Pathfinder E6, but I've been tied up with finishing up my 1st to 20th gonzo campaign that has been interrupted months at a time by having children.


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## NichG

I've been doing a sort of weird hybrid E6 campaign for the last three months or so. Here's the scheme:

Party starts at level 4, can take up to 3 LA (so would start with one HD).

Characters advance until they have 6 HD as per normal (so that would be 9th level for someone who started with 3 LA). 

Characters may then buy feats (2500xp) or may begin to buy gestalt levels starting with their first level. The cost of this is as if they had continued to level up normally, so a 3 LA 6/6 character would be at ECL 15 as far as xp costs AND xp gained from combat. The consequence of this is that LA and so on don't penalize you forever, but you do earn feats at a slower rate than the rest of the party due to the reduced xp from combat. Obviously if I stayed around CR 8 encounters, the ECL 15 guy would be earning 100xp here and 100xp there while other party members would be earning a feat a session, so I use a slightly normalized xp chart and a number of flat xp awards for plot stuff.

I'm also using Advanced d20 magic, which replaces Vancian casting with a 'roll a saving throw to cast a spell' sort of mechanic. Level 9 spells with no costly components are around DC 51, whereas level 3 spells are DC 30 and level 1 spells are DC 20. You can do various things to get bonuses (using a verbal component is worth +5, using a focus is worth +2, spending a full round action to cast is worth +5, spending XP on the spell or gold or a long time or taking backlash also give bonuses ...). When a spell is cast it causes nonlethal damage to the caster which grows weakly exponentially with the spell level, so it starts at 1d6 for a 1st level spell and gets up to 16d10 in the case of something like Wish. You do need to have the minimum stat of 10+spell level to cast a given spell, and with no stat boosting items and only one +1 from level, that means that someone who wants to cast level 9 spells in this campaign needs to start with at least an 18 in that stat.

It's also hard to maintain multiple spells at once in this system, so casters can't layer buffs so much (its an escalating Concentration check that goes up in DC by 10 for each spell currently up)

As a result there are two major limiting factors to throwing around very powerful spells trivially in battle: cast something too powerful and you risk knocking yourself out or even killing yourself. Secondly, you're going to have a nontrivial failure chance when you do something beyond your means, so if you don't take the time to do it well you could end up wasting several actions setting up for something that eventually doesn't go off. Double drain on a failed casting attempt combined with a higher failure rate makes this particularly brutal when you overreach. So the big spells are available but usually only when the party has time to set them up and do a day-long ritual, or if they're willing to blow 2000xp for the +20 casting bonus to pull it off. 

I've encouraged Book of Nine Swords and custom maneuvers to help the melee people keep up with casters in this system, though the gestalt levels mean that most of the party is in one way or another both fighter and caster of some sort (we have a very complicated Marshal/Paladin/Sorceror/Wizard fellow, a Cleric/Crusader, a Ranger, a Bard, and the exception a half-dragon Monk who puts out the most damage of the party by far)

The raise dead/etc spells are banned for plot reasons, but in place instead of 'dead at -10' its 'begin taking Con drain at -10 and dead at 0 Constitution'. Additionally, save or die spells allow the party one round to cast a healing spell on the victim to have them stabilize at -10 rather than die. Obviously some encounters are still very nasty with this system (Con damage poisons, things like shadows which kill via strength drain, etc).

Right now the party is ~ECL 8, and I'd expect them to do reasonably against a CR 12 or 13 encounter. I have a particular CR 20 encounter in mind for the finale which they should have plenty of information to prepare for. I think they'll be able to take it within this system despite not having more than 6HD if they plan for it appropriately. SR and HD-dependent spells like Cloudkill, Blasphemy, and Enervation (Maximized empowered enervation is kill on touch for example) are the major sticking points with the system I think. 

I don't get the impression that the lack of stat boosting items or better than +2 resistance, weapons, or armor is much of a hindrance for what its worth. I suspect that AC will be a losing game for the party as the campaign goes on, so it will be more of a matter of finding ways to soak up, evade, or heal through hits (Displacement, etc). I also think that they won't have much trouble hitting humanoid foes but may need to adopt a policy of true strike and touch attacks against large monsters who have a lot of natural armor.


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## Stegyre

NichG said:


> I'm also using Advanced d20 magic, which replaces Vancian casting with a 'roll a saving throw to cast a spell' sort of mechanic. Level 9 spells with no costly components are around DC 51, whereas level 3 spells are DC 30 and level 1 spells are DC 20. You can do various things to get bonuses (using a verbal component is worth +5, using a focus is worth +2, spending a full round action to cast is worth +5, spending XP on the spell or gold or a long time or taking backlash also give bonuses ...). When a spell is cast it causes nonlethal damage to the caster which grows weakly exponentially with the spell level, so it starts at 1d6 for a 1st level spell and gets up to 16d10 in the case of something like Wish. You do need to have the minimum stat of 10+spell level to cast a given spell, and with no stat boosting items and only one +1 from level, that means that someone who wants to cast level 9 spells in this campaign needs to start with at least an 18 in that stat.



I've actually been wanting to create a very similar system, myself. Do you have a link to a more detailed description?


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## Woas

NichG, that magic system is very similar to how sorcery, miracles and alchemy are handled in Barbarians of Lemuria.


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## NichG

It's a sourcebook by Guardians of Order for BESM d20, but its pretty rare these days. Another version of it is reprinted in the Slayers d20 sourcebook, same company, but you'd have trouble converting the standard spells since I don't think they include those rules (a bunch of modifiers for casting time, components, what to do when different classes get the spell at different levels, etc).

For what its worth, I replaced Fort saves (from the book) with Will saves for casting in my campaign, since otherwise wizards are penalized far too much compared to clerics, who already get every spell and through proper domain choice can cast cleric spells and all wizard spells 6th level and lower (using Limited Wish from a number of domains).

Do be aware that there are some ridiculous things that can happen. In principle there's a tipping point where someone in the party will be able to cast Wish without XP cost; they won't be able to do it on successive rounds, but everyone will be sporting a +1 inherent on everything at that point. If your campaign allows raise dead and the like, the party will always use True Ressurection since all it costs is taking extra time to cast. Its probably also a good idea to make it so that only half of the drain taken from casting spells can be healed magically, otherwise clerics can always pop a Heal to get back to full.

Long dungeon crawls tend to be much harder in this system (the casters cast themselves to exhaustion and end up walking around with their total hitpoints minus 5 in nonlethal damage). Casters are enhanced in single-encounter days, much like psions, because they can nova and throw off one ridiculous spell beyond their level at the start that knocks them out from drain (Frostfell, Implosion, Power Word Kill, etc). It also has the sort of neat component that if the party is really feeling threatened they can always start burning xp or even their equipment on spells to do stuff they couldn't normally do, so you can have both normal encounters be challenging and still have key, perhaps optional, encounters that are far more dangerous that the party can step up to if they're willing to sacrifice.

Don't use their item crafting system however, it's a bit TOO breakable. Additional abilities on the same item only very slowly increase the DC to make the item, and there's basically no cost for trying unless you want to provide a gold component to make it easier, so an item crafter can basically manufacture wealth by creating Rings of Universal Energy Resistance, which are very easy to make in this system since they're based off of five applications of a 2nd level spell, and then sell them for insane amounts of money or sacrifice them as components for the item they really want to make. Even if you forbid that sort of recursiveness, its not all that hard for a 12th level party, say, to be walking around with (a single) item of continuous Freedom of Movement, Deathward, Immunity to Poison, and +4 to two stats.


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## wotmaniac

any thoughts on mixing E6 with the Generic Classes from UA?


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## Aus_Snow

wotmaniac said:


> any thoughts on mixing E6 with the Generic Classes from UA?



I can't see any obvious problems with doing that.* What, if anything, are you unsure about?

* Well, except that I feel the Warrior and Expert could do with a bit of a 'boost', kinda thing. But that's a matter of taste, I suspect.


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## slwoyach

I thought about doing that for the campaign I just started, but I decided against it.  Players need baby steps.


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## Theo R Cwithin

wotmaniac said:


> any thoughts on mixing E6 with the Generic Classes from UA?



Personally, I think it can be a nice match for E6, especially in less "wahoo" settings.  

One problem might be that generic classes don't mesh perfectly with published material, if you're using it.  

Also, while they are pretty flexible, the generics as presented in UA lack a lot of the "cool factor" of certain regular D&D classes.  You can't emulate a druid straight out of the box, for example-- so you might have a little homework to do to bring in class features the players might want.  But in an E6 game, there's not a whole lot to do in this area since the levels are capped, so it should be manageable.


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## NichG

Turns out I was incorrect about the party only having the +1 inherent from Wish, thanks to using Wish to generate arbitrarily large amounts of material components that can be used to cast Wish (up to 25000gp a casting). 

Also, if someone in the group does manage to get Wish and cast it, expect the economy to go away at that point unless you have a good way to model how it responds to the influx of magically generated gold (perhaps Wish devalues the gold piece on a cosmic level so that 25000gp worth of some rare substance that becomes the economic standard is actually not that much). I just let it go since they can only buy up to caster level 6 items, and by the time someone managed to cast Wish the party was already pretty saturated with stuff they could actually purchase rather than find or make.


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## Votan

the_orc_within said:


> You can't emulate a druid straight out of the box, for example




It could be argued that this is a feature and not a bug!


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## MiilouSuede

*New to E6 and GMing*

Hey guys, I'm relatively new to GMing and am still trying to iron out some rules in my mind before I begin my E6 campaign.

My question is with regards to item creation.  In a world where crafters and casters can only be as powerful as level 6, is it not true that the only real item restrictions are ones that require spells above 3rd level and armor and weapons with enhancement bonuses above +2?  Staffs and Rods would not exist because of the feat requirements unless patched in like rings are with the extra feat.

Could we not include an item like

Pearl of Power (3rd)
Bracers of Archery, Greater
+2 Longsword of Undead Bane

The pearl only requires the ability to cast the level of spell and the bracers only have feat requirements easily attainable within 6 levels.  The longsword doesn't go past the +2 mark for any single ability.

I am, however, baffled on what to do with stat boosting items like:

Gauntlets of Ogre Power(+2)
Headband of Intellect(+2,+4,+6)
Cloak of Charisma(+2,+4,+6)
Belt of Giant Strength(+4,+6)

All four of them have spell requirements that are attainable by level 6, yet they have vastly different power levels.  Should the the rest be modded to look like the Gauntlets and have only one option of potency (+2)? Or should all have a full list the Headband and the Cloak (+2,+4,+6)?  I was considering that the first would be the most fair in relation the power levels of other items  but I'm sure you guys have different, more informed opinions that could help me.

One final question: What about the Rogue's sneak attack and the Undead?  I'm running an undead-heavy game that would practically obsolete rogues.  I'll note WotC did publish a Bardic feat (Requiem) that allows their music to perfectly affect undead in Libris Mortis.

I have, so far, found no way for rogues to get the full sneak attack bonus in E6 against undead without writing in a house feat.  Have you guys found any better solution?  Perhaps rogues are simply meant to be obsolete or at least limited in this kind of world I'm envisioning (but I sure hope not).

Any help would be very, very much appreciated.


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## Blackbrrd

MiilouSuede: just do as they did in 4e - remove the sneak attack immunity. No extra feat or anything. If you think it's too powerful, make undeads take -1d6 damage from sneak attack.


----------



## Shazman

Pathfinder also removed the sneak attack immunity from most things, unless they are incorporeal.  I think it's a good idea, especially if a PC has a rogue in an undead heavy campaign.  No need to follow RAW if it interferes too much with a player's fun.


----------



## Theo R Cwithin

@MiilouSuede: On item creation, it really depends what you you want for your campaign.  To tightly control magic, for example, the easiest thing to do is just look at CLs: anything higher than CL6th is not allowed in an E6 campaign.  That can be considered draconian by some, though 

Here's a list that someone(s) (I don't remember who) put together of SRD items possible to create in a standard E6 game.  Actually, it probably came from this thread, but I'll post the info again:[sblock]_*CAVEAT EMPTOR:*  I don't vouch for anything on this list. It's compiled from a couple other lists posted online (in this very thread, perhaps?)-- so I make no guarantees! _


*Minor Wondrous Items:*
Elixir of love 150 gp
Unguent of timelessness 150 gp
Dust of tracelessness 250 gp
Elixir of hiding 250 gp
Elixir of sneaking 250 gp
Elixir of swimming 250 gp
Silversheen 250 gp
Elixir of truth 500 gp
Bag of tricks, gray 900 gp
Hand of the mage 900 gp
Bracers of armor +1 1,000 gp
Cloak of resistance +1 1,000 gp
Pearl of power, 1st-level spell 1,000 gp
Phylactery of faithfulness 1,000 gp
Salve of slipperiness 1,000 gp
Elixir of fire breath 1,100 gp
Pipes of the sewers 1,150 gp
Dust of illusion 1,200 gp
Brooch of shielding 1,500 gp
Necklace of fireballs type I 1,650 gp
Dust of appearance 1,800 gp
Hat of disguise 1,800 gp
Pipes of sounding 1,800 gp
Amulet of natural armor +1 2,000 gp
Horn of fog 2,000 gp
Robe of bones 2,400 gp
Sovereign glue 2,400 gp
Boots of elvenkind 2,500 gp
Boots of the winterlands 2,500 gp
Candle of truth 2,500 gp
Cloak of elvenkind 2,500 gp
Scarab, golembane 2,500 gp
Necklace of fireballs type II 2,700 gp
Stone of alarm 2,700 gp
Bag of tricks, rust 3,000 gp
Chime of opening 3,000 gp
Horseshoes of speed 3,000 gp
Rope of climbing 3,000 gp
Dust of disappearance 3,500 gp
Lens of detection 3,500 gp 57
Bracers of armor +2 4,000 gp
Cloak of resistance +2 4,000 gp
Gloves of arrow snaring 4,000 gp \
Restorative ointment 4,000 gp 68
Pearl of power, 2nd-level spell 4,000 gp
Circlet of persuasion 4,500 gp 7
Slippers of spider climbing 4,800 gp
Bracers of archery, lesser 5,000 gp
Helm of comprehend languages and read magic 5,200 gp
Vest of escape 5,200 gp
Eversmoking bottle 5,400 gp
Sustaining spoon 5,400 gp
Boots of striding and springing 5,500 gp
Wind fan 5,500 gp
Amulet of mighty fists +1 6,000 gp
Horseshoes of a zephyr 6,000 gp
Pipes of haunting 6,000 gp
Gloves of swimming and climbing 6,250 gp
Circlet of blasting, minor 6,480 gp
Horn of goodness/evil 6,500 gp
Bottle of air 7,250 gp
Periapt of health

*Medium Wondrous Items:*
Bracers or armor +3
Amulet of NAC +2
Boots of haste
Cloak of Arcadia
Minor cloak of displacement



* ARMOR/SHIELD BONUSES*
NOTE – Prices do not include cost of masterwork armor or shield.
+1 Enhancement Bonus: CL 3, 1,000gp.
+2 Enhancement Bonus: CL 6, 4,000gp.
Acid Resistance: CL 3, 18,000gp.
Arrow Deflection: CL 5, 4,000gp.
Cold Resistance: CL 3, 18,000gp.
Electricity Resistance: CL 3, 18,000gp.
Fire Resistance: CL 3, 18,000gp.
Shadow: CL 5, 3,750gp.
Silent Moves: CL 5, 3,750gp.
Slick: CL 4, 3,750gp.
Sonic Resistance: CL 3, 18,000gp.

* SPECIFIC ARMORS*
Celestial Armor: CL 5, 22,400gp.
Mithral Full Plate of Speed: CL 5, 26,500gp.

* SPECIFIC SHIELDS*
Caster’s Shield: CL 6, 3,153gp.
Spined Shield: CL 6, 5,580gp.
Winged Shield: CL 5, 17,257gp

* WEAPON BONUSES*
NOTE – Prices do not include cost of masterwork weapon.
+1 Enhancement Bonus: CL 3, 2,000gp.
+2 Enhancement Bonus: CL 6, 8,000gp.
Distance: CL 6, 2,000gp.
Merciful: CL 5, 2,000gp.
Thundering: CL 5, 2,000gp.
Throwing: CL 5, 2,000gp.

* SPECIFIC WEAPONS*
Dagger of Venom: CL 5, 8,302gp.
Javelin of Lightning: CL 5, 1,500gp.
Screaming Bolt: CL 5, 267gp.
Sleep Arrow: CL 5, 132gp.

* RINGS*
Animal Friendship: CL 3, 10,800gp.
Chameleon Power: CL 3, 12,700gp.
Climbing: CL 5, 2,500gp.
Climbing, Improved: CL 5, 10,000gp. (10 ranks of climb can be achieved with the Skill Beyond Your Years feat)
Energy Resistance, Minor: CL 3, 12,000gp.
Feather Falling: CL 1, 2,200gp.
Invisibility: CL 3, 20,000gp.
Jumping: CL 2, 2,500gp.
Mind Shielding: CL 3, 8,000gp.
Protection +1: CL 5, 2,000gp.
Protection +2: CL 6, 8,000gp.
Spell Storing, Minor: CL 5, 18,000gp.
Sustenance: CL 5, 2,500gp.
Swimming: CL 2, 2,500gp.
X-Ray Vision: CL 6, 25,000gp.[/sblock]

If you want to risk adding in higher-power magics, you might use the creator-level rule for magic armor and weapons requiring a caster to be 3x the degree of enhancement.   In this case, the Belt of Giant Strength +2 could be made at 3x(+2ability)=CL6th, but not any stronger versions. (And this neatly matches the Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, as well.) Likewise, a Pearl of Power for 2nd level spells could be crafted at 3x(2ndLevel)=CL6th, but no higher-power Pearls. And so on. 

This doesn't work perfectly, and there are always hidden balance issues that don't pop up until the game gets going, of course, but it's a starting point.  

Good Luck!


----------



## MiilouSuede

Shazman said:


> Pathfinder also removed the sneak attack immunity from most things, unless they are incorporeal.  I think it's a good idea, especially if a PC has a rogue in an undead heavy campaign.  No need to follow RAW if it interferes too much with a player's fun.




Interesting.  I am running a Pathfinder game alongside this one being a more strictly vanilla 3.5.  I really may have to consider either removing the immunity or modding it in as a new feat.  It is true, though, serious RAW has the possibility of ruining player fun.

Just curious, are you guys running/playing your E6 in Pathfinder or in a more traditional WotC 3.5?  I typically really like how the classes have been updated (but not too far as to be unrecognizable), but I was assuming E6 was not created and balanced with its variations in mind.  How's it worked for you guys (specifically with regards to class balance)?



			
				the_orc_within said:
			
		

> On item creation, it really depends what you you want for your campaign. To tightly control magic, for example, the easiest thing to do is just look at CLs: anything higher than CL6th is not allowed in an E6 campaign. That can be considered draconian by some, though




Right.  My thought is that items of  x>6 CL are entirely possible to be created by level 6 characters.  Whether or not they go beyond the basic power of a normal magic of that level (but only for purposes of detect magic, SR, etc.), in my mind, is of no real concern.  However, that's mainly due to the low-high-low level of magic world I want to create. Hah!



> If you want to risk adding in higher-power magics, you might use the creator-level rule for magic armor and weapons requiring a caster to be 3x the degree of enhancement. In this case, the Belt of Giant Strength +2 could be made at 3x(+2ability)=CL6th, but not any stronger versions. (And this neatly matches the Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, as well.) Likewise, a Pearl of Power for 2nd level spells could be crafted at 3x(2ndLevel)=CL6th, but no higher-power Pearls. And so on.




My main complaint with the Pearls as it already neatly provides the required creator level within its text.



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> "Strong transmutation; CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, *creator must be able to cast spells of the spell level to be recalled;* Price 1,000 gp (1st), 4,000 gp (2nd), 9,000 gp (3rd), 16,000 gp (4th), 25,000 gp (5th), 36,000 gp (6th), 49,000 gp (7th), 64,000 gp (8th), 81,000 gp (9th), or 70,000 gp (two spells).




And the same process applies to Bracers of Armor +3, which we already accept in that item list even though it's past the normal +2 trend all the other items.



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, mage armor, creator’s caster level must be at least two times that of the bonus placed in the bracers; Price 1,000 gp (+1), 4,000 gp (+2), 9,000 gp (+3), 16,000 gp (+4), 25,000 gp (+5), 36,000 gp (+6), 49,000 gp (+7), 64,000 gp (+8); Weight 1 lb.




So I'm not sure why we're approaching the two items differently.  Maybe it's because the difference between a single free armor point and a single free 3rd level spell are of dramatically different values (and their CL's certainly reflect that with a gap of 10).

However, using such a rigid attention to rules as I have can cause problems such as the stat boosting items.  This goes back to the creatorI'll probably allow them all but only at the +2 level.

Even in that case, though, we're not making decisions based on RAW and we're only basing it on how we want to  flavor the world.  I simply find it kinda silly to not be able to create items you can already create but I can totally see why you would restrict them down for RP reasons.  This goes exactly with the Cautious vs. Gestalt approach to allowing feats.

I'd also go back to the creator level rule and modify it for my game.  When we consider the RAW, the x3 requirement can only apply to armor/weapons and not wondrous items.  But this rigid approach can bring in balance issues with all the stat boosting items quoted above.  The highest level can be technically created even by a level 6 character but I'd call that quite unfair with regards to the power of all the items in the "list" you quoted.

So I'm stuck at that point with a design decision.  I think I'll just chop them down to the +2 level but simultaneously also allow things like Pearl +3 and Bracers +3 AC because of extra creator level text.  But I'll admit to feeling a little hypocritical.




> This doesn't work perfectly, and there are always hidden balance issues that don't pop up until the game gets going, of course, but it's a starting point.
> 
> Good Luck!




Thank ya so much! 

Edit: 







> Cloak of Arcadia




Is that meant to be Cloak of Arachnida?


----------



## Votan

MiilouSuede said:


> Right.  My thought is that items of  x>6 CL are entirely possible to be created by level 6 characters.  Whether or not they go beyond the basic power of a normal magic of that level (but only for purposes of detect magic, SR, etc.), in my mind, is of no real concern.  However, that's mainly due to the low-high-low level of magic world I want to create. Hah!




Only insofar as they can boost their caster level somehow.  I can think of a few ways to get a +1 boost but that seems to be about it unless I am missing something pretty obvious.  Most prestige classes (the usual trick) are either too high of a level or you can only get the beginning of the sequence.

If I recall correctly, the +2 strength item is the only one that is legal.  

Higher level items could exist (your artifact list) but a major advantage of E6 is the move away from the banality of magic due to item creation rules that are pretty mild.  Small magics can be done this way but that ring of invisibility is a lot spiffier if the wizard can't just make it.


----------



## MiilouSuede

Votan said:


> Only insofar as they can boost their caster level somehow.  I can think of a few ways to get a +1 boost but that seems to be about it unless I am missing something pretty obvious.  Most prestige classes (the usual trick) are either too high of a level or you can only get the beginning of the sequence.



I'm not entirely sure what you're implying.  Are you saying the items with x>6 CL artificially boost the creator's level?  We do have Boots of Haste (I assume that's Boots of Speed) on the list with a CL 10 but I'm not sure how consequential that is.



> If I recall correctly, the +2 strength item is the only one that is legal.



 Why though?  I simply don't see the rules forbidding it either in the DMG or the E6 guide.  I'm almost sure I'm wrong, but I want to know why so I can further understand the rules.  



> Higher level items could exist (your artifact list) but a major advantage of E6 is the move away from the banality of magic due to item creation rules that are pretty mild.  Small magics can be done this way but that ring of invisibility is a lot spiffier if the wizard can't just make it.




I agree.  I like the whole gritty feel of it where there's more emphasis on tactics and planning as opposed to simply overcoming problems with a glut of power.  I want to be able to grasp this system more fully, specifically with regards to item creation, before I dive headlong into it.

With regards to the ring, how should we restrict crafting of it?  It doesn't have as a high a CL as the others (it's only a 3) and with the E6 Wondrous Rings feat, it's entirely impossible for a 6th level character.  I agree crafting can take a lot of the fun out of the game but I'm unsure about how to govern it.


----------



## Theo R Cwithin

@MiilouSuede: 







> I simply don't see the rules forbidding it either in the DMG or the E6 guide. I'm almost sure I'm wrong, but I want to know why so I can further understand the rules.



Here's a link to a WotC _Rules of the Game_ article on item creation basics.  Looks like item CL is also the minimum CL for the creator of that item.  It's not explicitly stated in the rules that I can find (not in the SRD, at least), but it does seem to be the "semi-official" assumption.  And that does seem to be the assumption that went into the E6 (and I presume other 3.5e) stuff.

If you do want to power things up in E6, maybe consider using feats to ensure PCs are deep into epic 6th level territory before they start whipping up powerful items.  As is, the rejiggering of "Forge Ring" into "Wondrous Rings" already does this to some extent; similar ones for other items could easily be patched in, as you suggested.  Alternatively, you could use something that effectively boosts CL for the purposes of item creation only.  Frex,  (and these are just off-the-cuff brainstorm examples, with no analysis!):
[sblock]
Accomplished Item Creation [Item Creation]
Prereq: 3 item creation feats, Knowledge(Arcana) 9 ranks
Benefit: A caster with this feat can create items up to CL9th for which has all other requirements.  This caster is also considered 9th level for the purposes of selecting other item creation feats only.
Normal: A caster can only create items up to CL6th.

Expert Item Creation [Item Creation]
Prereq: 5 item creation feats, including Accomplished Item Creation; Int 19+
Benefit: A caster with this feat can create items up to CL12th for which has all other requirements.  This caster is also considered 12th level for the purposes of selecting other item creation feats only.
Normal: A caster can only create items up to CL6th.

Master Item Creation [Item creation]
Prereq: 7 item creation feats, including Expert Item Creation; Knowledge(Arcana) 11 ranks; Int 21+
Benefit: A caster with this feat can create items up to CL18th for which has all other requirements.
Normal: A caster can only create items up to CL6th.
[/sblock]
Another option, and imho a bit more flavorful, you could add on additional requirements, like a magical "blueprint" that must be research/discovered for each item which (effectively) boost CL for the creation of that item only.  Or provide access to higher-level item-creation only through incantations/rituals.  Etc.   Imho, that sort of thing makes the items a bit more 'magical'.


----------



## MiilouSuede

the_orc_within said:


> @MiilouSuede: Here's a link to a WotC _Rules of the Game_ article on item creation basics.  Looks like item CL is also the minimum CL for the creator of that item.  It's not explicitly stated in the rules that I can find (not in the SRD, at least), but it does seem to be the "semi-official" assumption.  And that does seem to be the assumption that went into the E6 (and I presume other 3.5e) stuff.




That's exceptionally helpful, thanks!  My only questions regarding that would involve those items on the list that are above CL 6 like the Boots of Haste (CL 10) and Bottle of Air (CL 7).  How do we determine that they fit in?

Are items like Amulet of Mighty Fists that state multiple versions (+1 through +5) going to have a CL 5 no matter what?  The Pearl of Power also has a CL 17, is it also going to be consistent?  I'm sure it's not, because it fits on the list (but once again, I need to know why).

Why aren't items like Amulet of Mighty Fists (+2) or Pearl of Power (3rd) on the list when their creator requirements state they can be made by level 6 characters?



> If you do want to power things up in E6, maybe consider using feats to ensure PCs are deep into epic 6th level territory before they start whipping up powerful items.  As is, the rejiggering of "Forge Ring" into "Wondrous Rings" already does this to some extent; similar ones for other items could easily be patched in, as you suggested.  Alternatively, you could use something that effectively boosts CL for the purposes of item creation only.  Frex,  (and these are just off-the-cuff brainstorm examples, with no analysis!):
> [sblock]
> Accomplished Item Creation [Item Creation]
> Prereq: 3 item creation feats, Knowledge(Arcana) 9 ranks
> Benefit: A caster with this feat can create items up to CL9th for which has all other requirements.  This caster is also considered 9th level for the purposes of selecting other item creation feats only.
> Normal: A caster can only create items up to CL6th.
> 
> Expert Item Creation [Item Creation]
> Prereq: 5 item creation feats, including Accomplished Item Creation; Int 19+
> Benefit: A caster with this feat can create items up to CL12th for which has all other requirements.  This caster is also considered 12th level for the purposes of selecting other item creation feats only.
> Normal: A caster can only create items up to CL6th.
> 
> Master Item Creation [Item creation]
> Prereq: 7 item creation feats, including Expert Item Creation; Knowledge(Arcana) 11 ranks; Int 21+
> Benefit: A caster with this feat can create items up to CL18th for which has all other requirements.
> Normal: A caster can only create items up to CL6th.
> [/sblock]
> Another option, and imho a bit more flavorful, you could add on additional requirements, like a magical "blueprint" that must be research/discovered for each item which (effectively) boost CL for the creation of that item only.  Or provide access to higher-level item-creation only through incantations/rituals.  Etc.   Imho, that sort of thing makes the items a bit more 'magical'.




Awesome ideas.  I'm trying to go as traditional as possible with E6, and I think  some of my earlier ideas where due to a misunderstanding of the rules.  But I'll keep those in mind.


----------



## Theo R Cwithin

As far as the list goes, I don't vouch for anything on it.  It's compiled from a couple other lists posted online (in this very thread, perhaps?)-- so I make no guarantees!   But i suspect it was made by looking at spell levels rather than CLs-- and thus might not be 100% correct!  (I'll insert that in my post, in fact.)

As I understand it (from that article), the item CL is the CL of the creator.  The listed item CLs are the default lowest CLs possible for that item, and thus represent a minimum requirement for the creator; however, a caster of a higher level can create that same item at any CL from the default item CL up to his own CL if it's advantageous to do so (eg, for range, save DC, etc).  For bonus-granting  items, the CL of the item typically scales with the caster's level as well, except that they might have a minimum CL: this is the 3x (or sometimes 2x) rule.  

So an Amulet of Mighty Fists: it obeys the 3x rule, but has a default CL5th (its minimum), so a +1 is CL5th (the min, and also the lowest creator level), a +2 is CL6th, a +3 is CL9th, and so on.   And so, technically, even a 1st level Pearl of Power is CL17th and can't be created by a lesser caster!   Is it logical?  :shrug: That's your call. 

Also, I'll just point out that the Rules of the Game article above was just first of five or six in the "Making Magic Items" series.  There may be clearer info in there to pore over.  Or maybe not.   And also recall that _technically_ it is RAW that magic items frequently don't follow the rules, often for balance reasons.

Honestly, I'd just play it by ear (that's what I do  ) and not try to anticipate every corner case before the campaign gets going.  The lower-power items usually aren't game-breakers anyway.  That's one of the nice things about E6, imho.


----------



## Stalker0

the_orc_within said:


> Looks like item CL is also the minimum CL for the creator of that item.




Bah, WOTC has flip flopped on this issue so many times from the FAQ to their various official updates. I would just go with your gut on this one.


----------



## Theo R Cwithin

Stalker0 said:


> Bah, WOTC has flip flopped on this issue so many times from the FAQ to their various official updates. I would just go with your gut on this one.






the_orc_within said:


> Honestly, I'd just play it by ear (that's what I do ) and not try to anticipate every corner case before the campaign gets going.




My sentiments exactly!


----------



## MiilouSuede

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> Bah, WOTC has flip flopped on this issue so many times from the FAQ to their various official updates.




I wasn't aware of that.



> I would just go with your gut on this one.




Looks like it, heh.


----------



## wotmaniac

didn't have the patience to pour through all 36 pages, so I'll just ask:

Has there been any discussion of economies with this system?  
As I see it, the size and scale of economies in this system would be greatly reduced.  As such, stuff like GP-limit would necessarily need to be adjusted.

Thoughts?


----------



## Ry

1) Items that require a caster level 7 or 4th level spells (or higher) don't exist 
2) When I played I threw the demographic/economic rules out entirely, and just made my items and NPCs and put them into the world.
3) For a game like Eberron with E6, I'd have an active market for scrolls and potions but double the costs for permanent items.  

Really, it's up to you, but if you want to capitalize on the feeling of setting fidelity that E6 can give you, then you should pick your method, tell it to the players, and stick with that throughout the campaign.


----------



## wotmaniac

1) yeah, that one is pretty obvious (though it never hurts to reenforce the point)
2) that should probably work -- it's not like magic items are just going to be falling out of the sky.  I just didn't know if anyone had developed anything "hard-and-fast" (guess not)
3) I'll probably keep that to the cities -- I want to keep the villages and such fairly mundane,  What use do dirt farmers have for magic (from the farmers' PoV)?  
I'll envision a homebrew setting that has a bit of a Conan/LotR/EotW type of feel.  I'm reminded of that bit from the old AD&D books:  "Inform those players who have opted for the magic-user prefession that they have just completed a course of apprenticeship with a master who was of unthinkably high level (at least 6th!)" -- that just makes me smile. 


Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## Antariuk

*Prestige Classes in E6*

Hello,

I am planning for an upcoming E6 game and some of my players-to-be told me they'd like to take a level or two of prestige classes, even within the few class levels you get within E6. We discussed this a bit, I showed them some feats to gain additional class powers, but in the end I realized they didn't like it that much. The problems seemed not to be the feats per se but the change in the progress mechanic to become somewhat bland (just feats, nothing more).

Now I started to dig through all the former E6 threads here on ENWorld to see if someone already boiled prestige classes down to 1-3 class levels, but far from being finished I decided to just ask you people here first. Something like this already been done?


----------



## Theo R Cwithin

You could just lower the entry requirements on the PrCs so a 5th or 6th level character has a shot at meeting the prereqs.  Frex, lower spellcasting requirements to 3rd level spells, character level requirements to CL 3rd or 4th, BAB requirements to +4, and so forth.

Some people have even talked about doing away with the prereqs altogether, effectively making the PrCs into base classes (where it makes sense to do so).  I imagine you'd have to be careful with that, but, at least for the SRD PrCs, I understand that most of them don't have much in the way of balance issues.

There have also been at least a few attempts to make "feat chains" that grant access to the first 4 or five PrC class features, usually with the requirement that the character level be 6th.  

I can't of the the links, though.  If I can find my notes, I'll repost what I yoinked from those threads.


----------



## Antariuk

the_orc_within said:


> You could just lower the entry requirements on the PrCs so a 5th or 6th level character has a shot at meeting the prereqs.  Frex, lower spellcasting requirements to 3rd level spells, character level requirements to CL 3rd or 4th, BAB requirements to +4, and so forth.




Yeah, that was my idea. I thought of boiling it down to two levels per PrC. For me, the question is what abilities to offer within these two levels, because many PrC's develope their distinctive features later in the level progression. 



the_orc_within said:


> Some people have even talked about doing away with the prereqs altogether, effectively making the PrCs into base classes (where it makes sense to do so).  I imagine you'd have to be careful with that, but, at least for the SRD PrCs, I understand that most of them don't have much in the way of balance issues.




I had similar thoughts, especially for the Shadow Dancer (one to-be-player was quite interested in playing a shadowdancing rogue). I mean, you can easily mix some of the features with the Rogue class and there you go with you custom class.



the_orc_within said:


> There have also been at least a few attempts to make "feat chains" that grant access to the first 4 or five PrC class features, usually with the requirement that the character level be 6th.




I read about that, but its especially this feat-only solution some of the players seemed not looking forward to. Maybe its all different once we are actually in the situation for them to proceed in levels, and god knows what will happen within the adventurepath itself 



the_orc_within said:


> I can't of the the links, though.  If I can find my notes, I'll repost what I yoinked from those threads.




That would be great.


----------



## slwoyach

I'm experimenting with an E6 variant that addresses that problem.  Characters can advance beyond 6th level if they choose (following the same experience chart) but class abilities do not stack.  So they can never get better than a +6 BAB, +5 save, 6 hit dice, +3d6 sneak attack, etc.  Every character can have only one class beyond level 4 and none beyond level 6.  Or they can simply take the feat for every 5,000 exp.  So if they qualify for a prestige class at level 6 they could advance in that class up to level 4.  If they qualify by level 4 they can take up to 6 levels of a prestige class.


----------



## pawsplay

Antariuk said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am planning for an upcoming E6 game and some of my players-to-be told me they'd like to take a level or two of prestige classes, even within the few class levels you get within E6. We discussed this a bit, I showed them some feats to gain additional class powers, but in the end I realized they didn't like it that much. The problems seemed not to be the feats per se but the change in the progress mechanic to become somewhat bland (just feats, nothing more).
> 
> Now I started to dig through all the former E6 threads here on ENWorld to see if someone already boiled prestige classes down to 1-3 class levels, but far from being finished I decided to just ask you people here first. Something like this already been done?




What about a prestige class to base class conversion?


----------



## Storm Raven

I've been thinking about using a variant of this idea that involves dividing the amount of experience awarded by the level of the character in question. (Alternatively, one could mulitply the amount of experience needed to advance by the level of the character). This would allow characters to progess fairly rapidly beyond the neophyte stage, but slow them down considerably as they advance into the "meaty" level range of 4th-8th or so. It allows for continuous possible growth (and thus, for example, for the very rare powerful NPC), but slows things down to keep characters in the "sweet spot" a lot longer.


----------



## Antariuk

So eventually I came up with a solution involving both sides: I boiled the PrCs down to one single level (available at 6th character level) with features to be expanded by feats.

Funny thing is, this made me being interested in PrCs again. By and large I tend to ignore them and make my character concepts with normal classes and feats, but this - boiling them down to a single level with one or two defining abilities - seems cool. But before anyone of my gamers will reach the level to take a PrC there are multiple sessions of gameplay to do and god knows what will happen.


----------



## Votan

Antariuk said:


> So eventually I came up with a solution involving both sides: I boiled the PrCs down to one single level (available at 6th character level) with features to be expanded by feats.
> 
> Funny thing is, this made me being interested in PrCs again. By and large I tend to ignore them and make my character concepts with normal classes and feats, but this - boiling them down to a single level with one or two defining abilities - seems cool. But before anyone of my gamers will reach the level to take a PrC there are multiple sessions of gameplay to do and god knows what will happen.




One nice aspect of this approach is that all players will tend to have a single level of a prestige class which will put them back into the "adding flavor and uniqueness" range in a way that an admixture of prestige classes really does not.


----------



## Philosopher

Here's another suggestion for prestige classes - why not convert some of their class abilities into feats? With the right prerequisites, you can emulate PrCs fairly well.


----------



## Antariuk

Votan said:


> One nice aspect of this approach is that all players will tend to have a single level of a prestige class which will put them back into the "adding flavor and uniqueness" range in a way that an admixture of prestige classes really does not.




I noticed this too when I began writing PrC abilities into feats. Not that uniqueness should be a problem though, I'm offering everyone to use basically every d20 material ever put to to paper or PDF (with my approval), so there are plenty of classes and feats to select from, but the same time I can see why this is too much for some people and why they like to stick with the core materials.



Philosopher said:


> Here's another suggestion for prestige  classes - why not convert some of their class abilities into feats? With  the right prerequisites, you can emulate PrCs fairly well.




Well, to quote myself:



Antariuk said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am planning for an upcoming E6 game and some of my players-to-be told  me they'd like to take a level or two of prestige classes, even within  the few class levels you get within E6. We discussed this a bit, I  showed them some feats to gain additional class powers, but in the end I  realized they didn't like it that much. The problems seemed not to be  the feats per se but the change in the progress mechanic to become  somewhat bland (just feats, nothing more).
> 
> [...]


----------



## Philosopher

Antariuk said:


> Well, to quote myself:




Huh... I must have somehow forgotten that bit by the time I decided to reply. That's pretty funny, actually.


----------



## Umbralfox

I'll hopefully be running my first real E6 campaign starting on Sunday, so I've been doing quite a bit of preparation for it, for the players; Trying to make a consolidated spreadsheet with every 3.5 WOTC feat I can lay my greedy little paws on (partly as a response to one of the player's complaining that e6 doesn't give enough 'growth' room) as well as doing the same for the first six levels of WOTC classes. Some of it is because I like to have all that available from the get go, part of it is due to the player wanting 'proof' that he isn't really losing anything (Except the higher level save or die effects, if he goes caster) from playing E6. So far, everyone in the group except him is excited, and I'm hoping he realizes how enjoyable I think the game can be, heh.

Here's where I'm hoping to get some advice, however.
I dislike the capstone feats that grant a new spell slot or spell known, instead preferring the option someone else suggested, where such a feat grants you more spell slots as if your caster attribute was 4 points higher; It seems to me to alternate 1 spell slot/2 spell slots gained per feat, with the slot progression coming along evenly, rather than simply stocking up on 3rd level spell slots; Each time you take the feat, you also pick up a new spell known from one of the bonus spell slots granted. In cases where you get two bonus spell slots, you pick which level of spell you add to your spells known list.

I also am thinking about implementing a new feat for casters, to work with reserve feats. Essentially, it'd be something like
"Reserve Expert"
You gain access to higher level reserve abilities.
Prerequisites: Character level 6, two reserve feats
Benefit: You count as being able to cast spells of the next highest spell level for the purposes of qualifying for reserve feats. Reserve feats requiring spells higher than a level you can cast instead require the appropriate type of spell filling a 3rd level spell slot. Save DC, as well as any damage or effects that depend upon the level of the spell powering the feat, are treated as if the spell were 3rd level. 
Normal: Reserve feats normally require the ability to cast spells of a certain level, with a few of those feats requiring spell levels not available in E6. Reserve feats requiring such high-level spell slots also are unable to be used if the appropriate spell slot (or a higher spell slot) is not filled with the correct spell type.
Special: Summon Elemental summons a small elemental if a 3rd level summoning spell is available. You may take this feat multiple times; it's effects stack.

My question is, does anyone see a way to really 'break' this advantage, above and beyond what is available to other character types? I know, for example, that teleportation isn't that common... but dimensional jaunt (which would require this feat being taken twice, plus the actual feat itself) requires a standard action to use, and can be replicated (but better) with the conjurer specialist's alternate class feature, or a warlock's lesser invocation; the spell slot would be filled with a low level teleportation, like the benign switching spell from spell compendium, elevated to a higher level with a feat or some such effect. Perhaps the character would even research a 3rd level teleport-type spell effect, like a short range version of dimension door, or something. The other abilities... flight, minor form tweaks, the ability to summon elementals... can be brought about by various spell and invocation effects.


----------



## NotZenon

well i am currently doing an E6 game using the pathfinder ruleset.  It seems to work fairly well.  Pathfinder characters are definitely a bit more capable than regular 3.5 characters,  so it kind of messes up the CR of alot of traditional adventures.


----------



## joela

*E6 Trailblazer*

Any thoughts on E6 PCs developed using the Trailblazer rules by Badaxe Games?


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## NotZenon

*prestige feats.*

Here is my attempt at making a prestige feat chain for one of my characters that wanted to play a defensive knight/tank type character.   It is mostly based on the Dwarven Defender from the DMG, and also borrowed from some other feats i saw in this thread. (forgive me there is a bit of mix between 3.5 and pathfinder as we play pathfinder characters with the 3.5 skill list) Maybe a bit too powerful, but hasn't seemed to be game breaking so far.



Knight Defender [Prestige]
Prerequisite:  Base attack +6,  Good-aligned, Dodge, Toughness.
Benefit:  Balance, Intimidate, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot become class skills for you. You gain 6 Hit points.  You gain an additional +1 dodge bonus to Armour class.
Special: You may not gain this feat if you already possess any other prestige feats.

Indomitable [Prestige]
Description: Years of grizzled combat and countless wounds have left you a nearly-unstoppable force on the battlefield.
Prerequisites: Knight Defender prestige feat.
Benefit: You gain damage reduction 2/-. In addition, you are no longer fatigued from sleeping in Armour.

Defensive Stance [Prestige]
Prerequisite:  Knight Defender prestige feat, 2 prestige feats.
Benefit: For a number of rounds per day equal to your character level + your constitution bonus, you may enter a defensive stance as a swift action.  While you are in this stance, you gain a +4 dodge Bonus to Armour class, and a +2 bonus to all saves and CMD.  If any foe within your reach attacks an ally, you immediately gain an opportunity attack.  If any foe tries to take a 5-foot step away from you, you may immediately make an opportunity attack. If you move more than 5 feet on your turn this stance immediately ends.  As soon as you end this stance you are immediately fatigued, if you were already fatigued when you entered this stance you are instead exhausted.  
Special: If you have the endurance feat you are only fatigued for 1 round when you end this stance.

Second Wind [Prestige]
Prerequisite: Knight Defender, Indomitable, Endurance.
Benefit:  Once per day as a swift action you may gain 18 temporary hit points, these hit points may not raise you above your maximum.  These hit points last for a number of rounds equal to your character level + your constitution bonus.  

Retributive Strike [Prestige]
Prerequisite: Knight Defender, 2 Prestige Feats.
Benefit:  Once per day, if a foe scores a critical hit against you or one of your allies, or knocks one of your allies unconscious, you may declare a retributive strike against that foe on your turn.  For the rest of the round you gain a +3 bonus to hit that foe, and all your attacks against that foe do +1d10 damage. All your critical hits against that foe are automatically confirmed.  If you do not hit your foe during this turn, you continue to gain the +3 to hit until you hit that foe until you hit or the encounter is ended.
Special:  If you are in a defensive stance you may charge or move on this turn without ending your defensive stance.


----------



## NotZenon

*prestige feats.*

here is my attempt at making a druidic type prestige class for a bard player (to fit the flavor of my campaign - in which the only spellcasters are bards)

(of course i borrowed "lifecaster" from another poster on this thread)

Natural Mystic (Prestige)
Prerequisite: Character Level 6, no other prestige feats,  Knowledge Nature 4 ranks, Spell Craft 8 ranks, a spirit of nature must accept you as a protector of nature.
Benefit:  The following skills become class skills for you, Climb, Handle Animal, Knowledge Nature, Listen, Ride, Spot, Sense Motive, Survival, Swim.  In addition You can speak with animals, as per the spell, for a number of rounds per day equal to your character level + your charisma modifier.
Special: You may not gain this feat if you already possess any other prestige feats.

Natures Protector (Prestige)
Prerequisite: Natural Mystic Prestige Feat
Benefit: You gain the Plant Domain from the list of Cleric Domains.  From now on you gain all the benefits of that Domain, and can cast 1 domain spell per day, at each spell Level.  You also gain the Wild Empathy Class Ability.

Natures Lore (Prestige)
Prerequisite: Natural Mystic Prestige Feat, Natures Protector Prestige Feat.
Benefit:  You may add the following spells to your list of domain spells known: Obscuring Mist (1), Endure Elements (1), Fog Cloud (2), Animal Messenger (2), Lighting Bolt (3), Water Breathing (3). You may also add Purify Food and Drink to your list of orisons/cantrips.

Storm Lord (Prestige)
Prerequisites: Natural Mystic Prestige Feat, 2 Total Prestige Feats, Caster level 6th.
Benefit: Once per day, you may cast either Ice Storm or Call Lighting Storm at your caster level.

Life caster (Prestige)
For most spell casters, magic is life. For you, however, life can also be magic.
Prerequisite: Natural Mystic Prestige Feat, 3 total Prestige Feats, Caster Level 6th.
Effect: You can take temporary constitution damage to increase the effective caster level, or the save DC of your spells. When you cast a spell, every one point of constitution damage you take increases the caster level, or the save DC of that spell by one. You can't increase the effective caster level, or the save DC of a spell by more than 4 in this way. In addition, you may take constitution damage instead of increasing the spell slot used for spells you cast using Meta magic feats. For instance, you may cast a Quickened first level spell by taking 4 constitution damage instead of having to use a 5th level spell slot.


----------



## joela

*E6: An heir to the 3.x Mantle*

An interesting post on the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Trailblazer, Fantasycraft, Fantasy Concepts, and E6

_After spending a couple of years playing 3.5 I was quite happy to hear when 4E was announced.  While I've really enjoyed 3.5 there seemed to be a lot of things that could have been fixed, but with the system almost completely matured, it didn't look like it was going to be happening anytime soon by WotC.

During the buildup to 4E our group was playing a lot of Star Wars Saga Edition, and everyone was having a great time with it.  Saga edition was quietly being used as a kind of test bed for mechanics and ideas for 4E.  Later on designers of 4E mentioned in blogs and forum posts that Saga was in a lot of ways a snapshot of where 4E was in its early design phase.

So as 4E approach all of us were quite excited about the release, and we slurped up all the little previews and I even incorporated some of the preview rules into my Saga game.  We shared a common idea of, "Finally, 3.5 is going to be fixed, it's going to be a fantasy Saga system and it's going to be awesome!"

As it turned out, 4E design went well past the Saga system in overhauling the game and unfortunately for a lot of us in the gaming group it went too far.  For many of us 4E ended up not being the game for us, including myself.

So over the last year I've been paying a lot of attention to what I'm now calling the "Inheritors of 3.5", several different systems that are staying within the gravity well of 3.5, but which are making significant revisions.  I figured that after all of the reading and review I've done I might as well give an overview for the local gaming community._


----------



## joela

*campaign*



Nytmare said:


> I threw the idea of E6 at my players about a month ago.
> 
> <snikt>
> 
> What I wasn't expecting, was that my players had decided that they wanted to change over to E6 with or without me.  People are still a level or two away from the level six break point, but everyone seems to be excited.  For the most part, my group already preferred the E6 "sweet spot", and their primary complaints with other campaigns were when things powered up to the realm of level five spells.
> 
> Surprise number two was for one of the players to suggest using the "players roll all the dice" rule.  When I looked over it at first, I liked it, but the loss of control for a DM who often fudged rolls to keep players from dying scared me.  But, after having witnessed the genius of the Death Flag in action, I knew that I had nothing to worry about.
> 
> But yeah, so far everything's turning up roses.  There have been fewer arguments about this round of houserules than anything else we've tried, and everyone seems to be excited.  The only hitch we've run into is wrapping our heads around the "players roll" rules, but we've only had one real swing at them so far.




Nytmare, how'd the campaign go? I'd especially like to hear your experiences with the Death flag and Players roll all the Dice.


----------



## Jack Daniel

Yesterday, I just finished my first E6 campaign... using the Basic/Expert rules.  

My take on E6 is very simple.  I took the framework of the Basic D&D character classes, and then I limited all of them to 6th level.  A few tweaks are needed here and there (particularly a slight acceleration in the combat and saving throw advancement tables), but otherwise very few changes need to be made to the game.

Once characters actually reach 6th level, they gain all the benefits normally accorded to 9th (name) level characters in the regular rules (i.e. a title, stronghold, followers).  Beyond that, every time a character re-earns the same amount of XP normally needed to go from 5th level to 6th (e.g. 16K for a fighter, 20K for a magic-user, 32K for an elf), the character gains an "epic advancement."  Since there are no feats in Ye Auld Game, an epic advancement grants two boons.  First, the player increases any one of his character's ability scores by one point.  Second, the player re-rolls all of his character's hit dice, adjusts for constitution, and takes the new total if it's higher.  In the event that maximum hp are ever rolled, future epic advancements grant only the ability score raise.

This particular campaign was fairly spell-heavy, since it starred a magic-user, a cleric, and an elf.  The plot consisted of an alternate 19th century Earth where magic is real, set against the backdrop of 1860s Ireland, during the Fenian raids.  The player characters were Irish-born adventurers with rebel sympathies, but they became chiefly concerned with hunting down a number of evil magical artifacts before they fell into the hands of a cultist sorcerer.  The sorcerer was nominally working for the British army, but really he was just manipulating everybody to his own ends, namely to use said evil artifacts to revive a Mesopotamian demon to do his nefarious bidding.  Last night, the campaign came to an end when the player characters confronted, fought, and defeated the sorcerer in an explosive battle on the streets of downtown Dublin.

Speaking in terms of game mechanics, the campaign couldn't have gone better.  Capping all experience levels at 6th has proven to be the ideal way to both keep the action realistically "heroic" and make everything run smoother for the DM.  Low level monsters, spells, and items are easy to remember off the cuff; the player characters never have any game-breaking super-powers; in short, zero headaches for me.  And the players still have that sense of advancement past 6th, when they earn the "epic *ding*" and get to raise an ability score.  Capital idea, this E6!

==========

One of the curious things I was able to do with this game, though, was to make all of the numbers "mean something" in fairly concrete terms.  This allowed me to place adjectives, rather than numbers, on the players' character sheets.  As the DM, I had all of the characters' stats in "stat black" form, like so:

*Maldinar, *L Mag3, Str 9 Dex 12 Con 13 Int 16 Wis 8 Cha 10, AC 5, HP 12, THAC0 19, Saving Throw 14, etc...

But the character sheet looked something like this:

Name - Maldinar
Alignment - Lawful
Class - Magic-User
Level - Conjurer

Strength - Average
Dexterity -Average
Constitution - Above Average
Intelligence - High
Wisdom - Below Average
Charisma - Average

Armor Class - Bracers of Armor (Chainmail)
Combat Skill - Basic Training
Saving Throw - Seasoned Adventurer (Wisdom Penalty)
Current Health - (*) Hale; ( ) Winded; ( ) Exhausted; ( ) Injured

===========

As the DM, I rolled all of the dice.  The players never saw a single number.  It was that fact, I think, coupled with the "heroic realism" of the E6 power scale, that greatly improved the immersive experience for the players.


----------



## slwoyach

That's interesting, I've been wrestling with a way to combine 2E and E6 and your idea has some merit.


----------



## joela

Jack Daniel said:


> Yesterday, I just finished my first E6 campaign... using the Basic/Expert rules.




W00t! Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Antariuk

joela said:


> Any thoughts on E6 PCs developed using the Trailblazer rules by Badaxe Games?




I started an Eberron game using E6 and Trailblazer some time ago.  But as we only had two sessions so far and just one gamer aside me  played 3.5 before (others are total D&D newbies), there is no real  "revelation" yet. The party is still at 1st level and consists of a  gnome wizard, a satyr druid, a human barbarian and warforged scout. I  gave them a party pool of extra action points at the beginning because  they seemed to like the idea a lot, despite having some trouble to  figure out how to get the most out of them. Other things they also did  like - at least from what I noticed at the table:

- Aid Attack/Defense was used quite often. I had fun watching them helping each other on the battlemap ("No no, you go *there* so we can *both *give him the bonus.")
- the Rest Mechanic was much appreciated after I showed them a 3.5 PHB
-  Disable Device Skill. The player of the warforged scout loved that he  could open a door and disable a trap (an encounter trap that filled the  whole room) with the same skill.
- Track folded into Survival Skill.  That was something I liked to see, because the scout, the barbarian and  the druid were tracking the hell out of my woods. I had to come up with a  lot of spontaneous animals and creatures.

I hope to continue  this game soon, because it began very promising. I told my players about  the idea behind E6 and they didn't mind to give it a try. But there are  still lots of sessions to do


----------



## joela

Antariuk said:


> I started an Eberron game using E6 and Trailblazer some time ago.  But as we only had two sessions so far and just one gamer aside me  played 3.5 before (others are total D&D newbies), there is no real  "revelation" yet. The party is still at 1st level and consists of a  gnome wizard, a satyr druid, a human barbarian and warforged scout. I  gave them a party pool of extra action points at the beginning because  they seemed to like the idea a lot, despite having some trouble to  figure out how to get the most out of them. Other things they also did  like - at least from what I noticed at the table:
> 
> - Aid Attack/Defense was used quite often. I had fun watching them helping each other on the battlemap ("No no, you go *there* so we can *both *give him the bonus.")
> - the Rest Mechanic was much appreciated after I showed them a 3.5 PHB
> -  Disable Device Skill. The player of the warforged scout loved that he  could open a door and disable a trap (an encounter trap that filled the  whole room) with the same skill.
> - Track folded into Survival Skill.  That was something I liked to see, because the scout, the barbarian and  the druid were tracking the hell out of my woods. I had to come up with a  lot of spontaneous animals and creatures.
> 
> I hope to continue  this game soon, because it began very promising. I told my players about  the idea behind E6 and they didn't mind to give it a try. But there are  still lots of sessions to do




Thanks for sharing!


----------



## NotZenon

joela said:


> Any thoughts on E6 PCs developed using the Trailblazer rules by Badaxe Games?




I am interested in trailblazer however i have not got a chance to look at it yet.

what do you think of it?  are you involved with Badaxe?


----------



## joela

NotZenon said:


> I am interested in trailblazer however i have not got a chance to look at it yet.
> 
> what do you think of it?  are you involved with Badaxe?




I like it. Distinctly different from Paizo's approach with Pathfinder but not the radical shift like True20 or FantasyCraft. And nope: not involved with Badaxe except as a fanboi of their products. (HEART Grim Tales).


----------



## NotZenon

I appreciate your input.

I REALLY like the piazo pathfinder stuff, (art work, writing, the whole bit) but to be honest i'm already heavily house ruling it because its just to High powered, and not classic fantasy enough for me.  

I'm strongly considering buying the Trailblazer product, i've been trying to read as much about it as i can on the Enworld boards here. the only reason i'm holding out is that i'm broke for the moment! ha.

I've been playing DnD online the free game a little bit lately, and surprisingly they have a really cool slow leveling system.  Basically each level is divided into 4 sublevels (you also need like 5x as much XP but that has more to do with being a video game)  in which you get "action points" to spend, but these points are closer to "mini-feats"  that you can choose based on you class/race.  For example as a barbarian you can get an "action point" mini feat that allows you to add a +2 to damage for 3 rounds(20 seconds), using these action point feats uses an "action point" (i believe you get 5 per dungeon, until you can find a rest shrine).  But some of the "action point" mini feats you buy just give you flat bonus's, like a +1 fort save vs. poison for the dwarf. they also have one for prime requisite advancement (+1)

It works on a number of levels since some of the traditional racial bonus's can be handed out this way (making it easier to balance starting races that tradtionally  may have been too tough like dwarves)  it also encourages people to single class since the better "action point" mini feats are available at higher levels.  Of course multi classing is still awesome cause it just makes that many more mini feats available to  you.   Actually alot of these "action points" remind me of the "character traits" system introduced in some of the pathfinder stuff.  The thing that impressed me the most is it basically keeps the core of 3.5, while allowing for more interesting and exciting level advancement (in my opinion one of DnD's biggest weaknesses), yet surprisingly doesn't seem to have the "power leveling" effect that pathfinder seems to have.  my 4rth level cleric barbarian is still fighting kobolds for example.   I'm wondering if anyone has tried compiling these DnD online rules for pen and paper play.

sorry totally rambled off topic there.


----------



## aerys

*Demographics in E6 Eberron*

I just came across this recently when I saw a E6 play by post game. May be joining one soon. This really appeals to me as a DM. You can really lay out the world without worrying about a sliding power scale. 

I'm still mulling over how this would work and came up with this altered demographics chart based on the Eberron Dragonshard article. 

I would reduce all the positive community modifiers and shift all the dice down all category (d6 to d4, d3 to d2, etc.). The negative modifiers for Thorp, Hamlet and Village could stay in place. 

NPC classes would drop to 1d4 and Commoner and Expert (possibly Adept? Warrior?) would be unaffected by community modifiers. This would make magewrights and aristocrats rare in thorps, but allow for a town elder or master craftsman.

So you could theoretically have an elite (2nd level) fighter or rogue in a hamlet, but this would be rare. A lot of the other PC classes would be seen only in a village or larger, with the odd bard seen in a hamlet (which makes sense since their livelihood depends on people with money to spend).

Okay, let me know what you think.

*Community Modifiers*
Thorp -3
Hamlet -2
Village -1
Small town 0
Large town +1
Small city +2
Large city +2 (roll twice)
Metropolis +2 (roll three times)


*Highest-Level Locals*
Adept 1d4 + community modifier
Aristocrat 1d4 + community modifier
Artificer(_3) _1d2 + community modifier
Barbarian(_1)_1d2 + community modifier
Bard 1d3 + community modifier
Cleric(_2) _1d2 + community modifier
Commoner 1d4
Druid(_1) _1d2 + community modifier
Expert 1d4
Fighter(_4) _1d4 + community modifier
Magewright 1d4 + community modifier
Monk 1d2 + community modifier
Paladin(_2) _1d2 + community modifier
Ranger(_1) _1d2 + community modifier
Rogue 1d4 + community modifier
Sorcerer 1d2 + community modifier
Warrior 1d4 + community modifier
Wizard(_3) _1d2 + community modifier

1. In areas where these classes are common, level is 1d4 + modifier. Druids are common in the Eldeen Reaches and the Shadow Marches. Rangers are typically found in the Eldeen Reaches, Shadow Marches, Talenta Plains, and Valenar. Barbarians can be found in the Demon Wastes, Darguun, Droaam, Eldeen Reaches, Shadow Marches, and Talenta Plains.
2. In Thrane, level is 1d4 + modifier. The culture of Thrane is closely tied to the Church of the Silver Flame, and many of its citizens hear the call of the Silver Flame.
3. In Aundair, level is 1d4 + modifier. In Karrnath, level is 1d3 + modifier. Aundair is home to the Arcane Congress and celebrates mystics and artificers. The Twelve has its primary campus in Karrnath, and this results in a slightly higher level of mystical skill.
4. In Karrnath, level is 1d4 + modifier +1 (max 6). Karrnath has the strongest martial tradition of the Five Nations, and the Rekkenmark Academy produces the finest officers in the land.​


----------



## joela

*DnD online AP system*



NotZenon said:


> I've been playing DnD online the free game a little bit lately, and surprisingly they have a really cool slow leveling system.  Basically each level is divided into 4 sublevels (you also need like 5x as much XP but that has more to do with being a video game)  in which you get "action points" to spend, but these points are closer to "mini-feats"  that you can choose based on you class/race.




Wait, wait, wait. Come again? Could you provide more examples? This sounds fascinating.


----------



## NotZenon

joela said:


> Wait, wait, wait. Come again? Could you provide more examples? This sounds fascinating.




alright well i looked a bit more into it, and its explained a little bit here  and a bit more specifically.

As far as i can tell the enhancements seem to be divided into abilities that give you something to spend your action points on during play.  (For example, a barbarian enhancement allows you to spend 1 action point during combat to gain DR 6/- for 20 seconds - would be OP in a pen and paper game, but works in video game world - another one gives them a burst of speed for 20 seconds)

And the other category seems to be enhancements that give flat feat like bonus's, usually about the power level of about half a feat.  For example the cleric can purchase an enhancement that gives them a flat +1 to will saves (half of Iron Will Feat).  The barbarian can purchase an enhancement that gives them a +1 to will saves, but only while they are in a rage.  They also have ones that give +1 bonus to a class skill (barbarian Jump for instance).

Also they have some enhancements that cost 2 "action points" (the term is a bit confusing cause in the game they use it to describe both the points you use to buy your enhancements, but also the points you use to activate them in game play).   These are generally more feat like in power, for example the cleric can increase his wisdom by +1, with an enhancement that costs 2 action points.

I don't think it would be that hard to translate this system into game play, or E6 like play.  The main concern would be decreasing the power creep of some of these powers, since they are designed for a video game (in which you often have 50+ encounters in an evening) as opposed to a pen and paper game (3-6 encounters on average for my group before we pack it in, in E6, in high level play we were lucky to complete 2 encounters, which is why we switched to E6).

Any power that lasts a time limit could just be divided by 6 and rounded down.  For example 20 seconds = 3 rounds.

Finally, They actually have a list of every available character advancement  Right Here.


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## NotZenon

My initial instinct was to emulate this by perhaps allowing the characters to get 2 enhancements points between levels, which could be used to purchase feats (2 points per feat), or character traits (1 point per trait), or the points could be used to raise stats as per the point buy system.

So in terms of 3.5 experience chart, since i favour slightly slower advancement maybe like this:

500xp = enhancement pt.
1000xp = enhancement
1500xp = 2nd level
2500xp = enhancement
3500xp = enhancement
4500xp = 3rd level
6000xp = enhancement
7500xp = enhancement
9000xp = 4th level
11000xp = enhancement
13000xp = enhancement
15000xp = 5th level
19000xp = enhancement
23000xp = enhancement
27000xp = 6th level

after 6th, 4000 per enhancement point.


----------



## Werebat

*E6 Numbers*

I've been curious about how the "numbers" work out for E6 when it comes to how many magic items players accumulate, and how many encounters it takes to "level up", as compared to standard 3.5 D&D.

Well I ran the numbers last night.

I'll preface this by saying that my E6 game runs a little differently than the one presented here; in a nutshell, players gain new feats every 2,500 xp after 6th instead of every 5,000 xp (we did this to speed the game up a bit as I realized it was going to take a LONG time to reach 6+20 feats).

Also, due to the nature of the epic feats I allow (essentially granting PCs gestalt status or potent late-level abilities shortly after reaching level 6), I assume 6+2 to equal level 7 in power, 6+5 to equal level 8, and one power level "bump" to occur per five epic feats after (up to roughly 11th level equivalent at 6+20).

Note that more typical E6 games will see a greater difference between their own stats and the standard 3.5 stats presented here.  It is partly for this reason that I recommend using my own method for running E6 games (though everyone's mileage may vary).

This first chart shows levels in a "standard" D&D game in the first column, the number of average EL encounters a 4-member party will need to attain that level in the second, and then the same for E6 in the 3rd and 4th columns.

 6th lvl       84 encounters          6th lvl          84 encounters
 7th lvl       98                          6+2             95
 8th lvl       112                        6+5             109
 9th lvl       126                        6+10           130
10th lvl      140                        6+15           148
11th lvl      154                        6+20           165


As you can see, even requiring only 2,500 xp between feats, E6 games progress in power level more slowly than standard D&D games.  For some, this may be a feature, not a bug.

Even with this faster advancement, E6 characters will end up with more equipment for their power level than standard 3.5 D&D characters.  I took the average amount of treasure awarded for standard-level encounters at each power level, divided by four (assuming equal division among four party members), and tallied to figure out how much wealth an average E6 character would have at any given power level (using the number of encounters given above).  I then compared to the wealth-by-level guidelines in the DMG, which use a similar formula.

Here is what I learned:

 6th lvl       13,000 gp          6th lvl       13,000 gp
 7th lvl       19,000 gp          6+2          18,500 gp
 8th lvl       27,000 gp          6+5          27,600 gp
 9th lvl       36,000 gp          6+10        40,000 gp
10th lvl      49,000 gp          6+15        52,500 gp
11th lvl      66,000 gp          6+20        90,912 gp

As you can see, after the fifth epic feat, E6 characters start having more equipment than the average for their power level.  Again, note that my game requires only 2,500 xp per epic feat -- in a game that requires 5,000 xp, this discrepancy will be even greater!

Just thought this info might be interesting to fellow E6-ers.

   - Ron   ^*^


----------



## Scurvy_Platypus

Werebat said:


> I've been curious about how the "numbers" work out for E6 when it comes to how many magic items players accumulate, and how many encounters it takes to "level up", as compared to standard 3.5 D&D.
> 
> Well I ran the numbers last night.






Werebat said:


> Also, due to the nature of the epic feats I allow (essentially granting PCs gestalt status or potent late-level abilities shortly after reaching level 6), I assume 6+2 to equal level 7 in power, 6+5 to equal level 8, and one power level "bump" to occur per five epic feats after (up to roughly 11th level equivalent at 6+20).
> 
> Note that more typical E6 games will see a greater difference between their own stats and the standard 3.5 stats presented here.  It is partly for this reason that I recommend using my own method for running E6 games (though everyone's mileage may vary).




Oooooook...

I guess I've gotta ask, what exactly is it you're trying to do? You seem to have several things going on here and I don't get it.

You're probqbly not familiar with Upper_Krust and the work he did in figuring out a consistent approach to using the CR system. His work basically says that it takes 5 feats to equal 1 CR. Now, obviously feats vary in power and utility, but that's a base point for you.

2nd... Why are you messing with the level/wealth dynamic? Characters hit 6th level. Everything freezes at that point, the sole exception being that every 5k XP means a character gets a feat. Jacking up the wealth/items that people get is going to make it all go wonky. Characters should get what they get based on being 6th level. That's my take on it. The whole point is to _stop_ the constant inflation that's going on.

3rd, Xp. Now, if you want to do every 5k of XP=1 feat, there's no problem with that. When I did the math, I found that at the end you'd wind up with close to the same amount of XP spent as you would have collected getting to 20th level. Obviously the "timing" of it might seem off/different, but really it's not. See, 3.x is based on the idea of 13.33 encounters to level. In other words, whether you're 1st level or 15th level, it's expected that you'll get enough XP so that every 13.33 encounters you'll go up to the next level.

So really, tracking XP and all that other stuff is just needlessly complicating your life. Just say that every 12 - 14 encounters, the characters get a feat. Every 5 feats, consider them to be roughly 1 level higher. I say "roughly" because remember that they're not getting extra HP or saves, so you can have a bit of a "glass cannon" effect going on.

At the end of the day, how you run your game is up to you. If you're going to prsent the results of your E6 game, that's groovy but I'm personally not sure just how applicable your charts and everything reqlly are for everyone's game. Especially given that you admit quite early that you're messing around with the base. I do think it's good info for folks that are thinking of trying some of your modifications (like the increasing wealth).

Just my 2 cents man. If you're diggin' your thing, that's groovy. Just thought I'd offer a different perspective.


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## Werebat

Scurvy_Platypus said:


> Oooooook...
> 
> I guess I've gotta ask, what exactly is it you're trying to do? You seem to have several things going on here and I don't get it.
> 
> You're probqbly not familiar with Upper_Krust and the work he did in figuring out a consistent approach to using the CR system. His work basically says that it takes 5 feats to equal 1 CR. Now, obviously feats vary in power and utility, but that's a base point for you.
> 
> 2nd... Why are you messing with the level/wealth dynamic? Characters hit 6th level. Everything freezes at that point, the sole exception being that every 5k XP means a character gets a feat. Jacking up the wealth/items that people get is going to make it all go wonky. Characters should get what they get based on being 6th level. That's my take on it. The whole point is to _stop_ the constant inflation that's going on.
> 
> 3rd, Xp. Now, if you want to do every 5k of XP=1 feat, there's no problem with that. When I did the math, I found that at the end you'd wind up with close to the same amount of XP spent as you would have collected getting to 20th level. Obviously the "timing" of it might seem off/different, but really it's not. See, 3.x is based on the idea of 13.33 encounters to level. In other words, whether you're 1st level or 15th level, it's expected that you'll get enough XP so that every 13.33 encounters you'll go up to the next level.
> 
> So really, tracking XP and all that other stuff is just needlessly complicating your life. Just say that every 12 - 14 encounters, the characters get a feat. Every 5 feats, consider them to be roughly 1 level higher. I say "roughly" because remember that they're not getting extra HP or saves, so you can have a bit of a "glass cannon" effect going on.
> 
> At the end of the day, how you run your game is up to you. If you're going to prsent the results of your E6 game, that's groovy but I'm personally not sure just how applicable your charts and everything reqlly are for everyone's game. Especially given that you admit quite early that you're messing around with the base. I do think it's good info for folks that are thinking of trying some of your modifications (like the increasing wealth).
> 
> Just my 2 cents man. If you're diggin' your thing, that's groovy. Just thought I'd offer a different perspective.




Thanks, these are all good questions.

Not really trying to "do" anything here other than provide some information.  I know people in the past have asked about potential issues with treasure acquisition in E6 and what happens over the long term.  I thought I'd explore that a bit to check out the truth of it.

I'm not familiar with UK's work per se, but I do understand and basically accept the premise that 5 feats are roughly equivalent to one level.  The only thing I've really changed on that count is counting the very first two feats (and the three feats right after that) as each being equivalent to one level "bump" because of the nature of the feats I'm allowing.  In short, I allow players to use those feats to "gestalt" themselves (essentially gaining full abilities of 6th level in two different classes), and gestalt characters are (by the book they come from) the equivalent of +2 to their power level.  If you sift through this thread you can find an earlier post of mine where I explain my system in more detail.

As for wealth...  If I'm reading you right, it is your opinion that E6 characters get NO treasure after attaining level 6?  That doesn't sound right to me.  I've never seen such an idea before.  My assumption is that the keep on finding treasure as they would at any other time, and gain wealth per encounter at the average rate.  For example, if I consider 6+10 characters to be the equivalent of 3.x characters of level 9, then their average EL will be 9 and they will gain average treasure rewards from those EL 9 encounters.  At the very least, one would expect that they will collect magic gear from fallen NPC villains with class levels.  

To this end, I didn't "mess" with the level/wealth dynamic at all, I just plotted out how it would be expected to run if the DM ran level-appropriate encounters with the average amount of treasure.  Am I making sense?

My main points here, again, are that E6 characters (in my personal homebrew and, to a greater degree, in "standard" E6 campaigns) require more encounters per "bump" in power level than regular 3.x characters, which results in considerably more wealth per (power) level than the game expects.

I originally switched to awarding feats every 2,500 xp because my players were complaining that they didn't earn feats quickly enough, and when I ran the numbers I learned that it was going to take them far longer to reach 6+20 (the end of the campaign) than I wanted it to.  In making the switch, I accidentally took a step in the right direction towards fixing the issue I had suspected and (with the data above) recently proved; that E6 characters will over time end up with a lot more gear than their power level expects.

I hope this helps explain what I was trying to do,

   - Ron   ^*^


----------



## Scurvy_Platypus

Werebat said:


> As for wealth...  If I'm reading you right, it is your opinion that E6 characters get NO treasure after attaining level 6?




No, it's just that they acquire wealth as though they're just 6th level.  



Werebat said:


> To this end, I didn't "mess" with the level/wealth dynamic at all, I just plotted out how it would be expected to run if the DM ran level-appropriate encounters with the average amount of treasure.  Am I making sense?




Basically, yeah.



Werebat said:


> My main points here, again, are that E6 characters (in my personal homebrew and, to a greater degree, in "standard" E6 campaigns) require more encounters per "bump" in power level than regular 3.x characters, which results in considerably more wealth per (power) level than the game expects.




Ok, _this_ on the other hand doesn't make sense to me.

If you're running the game normally, then encounters are going to be just as difficult, and XP as well as wealth is going to flow at exactly the same rate. [x] amount of wealth is handed out per level. Divide [x] by 13 (or whatever) and there you go.

I fail to see how E6 is suddenly changing the dynamic. Maybe I'm just slow.

Also, I personally don't why wealth would be increased just because of adding the feats. Remember that the "level increase" that's being given for every 5 feats is a bit of a shaky one; you can afford to bump the opposition up a bit, but not too much since characters aren't getting all the level benefits. Since the opposition isn't exactly scaling up significantly, wealth shouldn't be either. 



Werebat said:


> I originally switched to awarding feats every 2,500 xp because my players were complaining that they didn't earn feats quickly enough, and when I ran the numbers I learned that it was going to take them far longer to reach 6+20 (the end of the campaign) than I wanted it to.  In making the switch, I accidentally took a step in the right direction towards fixing the issue I had suspected and (with the data above) recently proved; that E6 characters will over time end up with a lot more gear than their power level expects.




And again I'm just not clear on what you mean. Do you mean they wind up with massive amounts of money at the end of 6+20? If you keep handing out gear and money as if they were leveling, then yeah... That honestly seems kinda obvious. Afterall, the game has continued on for an awful lot longer than they've been 6th level.

The thing is, up until level 6 money has to have been spent on something. Gear is kinda limited too; people keep swapping gear as they level because the new levels require higher powered gear. If there's no reason to upgrade, then yeah gear won't change and people wind up with extra gear.

I guess I'm just confused. Up until level 6, you've got expenses of one sort or another. Part of those expenses are upgrading gear, which is mitigated to an extent by treasure rewards. Once characters hit 6th level, they're still going to have expenses. If every single person in the group managed to have every single magic item they wanted/needed by the time they reached 6th, then A) I think you've been incredibly generous as a GM and B) You're going to have to figure out some reason for them to keep collecting money or at least something cool they can do with all the money they've collected.

I don't think this is really a new problem. GMs have always been trying to figure out how to get players to spend the money the get. Part of the desigof D&D is to simply charge money for stuff, forcing players to give it up; magic items, unique components for spells, healing potions, etc.

If the game is strictly about getting the biggest pile of shiny stuff, then I can see where some problems might pop up, but even then I'd expect it to takea fair amount of time honestly.

Are you doing some sort of ultra-low magic as well? I know that's a popular idea with E6 (although not one I subscribe to at all) and maybe that's where part of the problems are coming up. The less magic stuff there is to help act as a siphon, the more you have to work on siphoning it off yourself.

Maybe we're just talking about the same thing but from completely different perspectives and therefore we've addressed it differently?


----------



## Werebat

Scurvy_Platypus said:


> If you're running the game normally, then encounters are going to be just as difficult, and XP as well as wealth is going to flow at exactly the same rate. [x] amount of wealth is handed out per level. Divide [x] by 13 (or whatever) and there you go.




I get the feeling we are both talking about the same thing in different ways, as you said.

First, to make this perfectly clear, when I listed the number of gps for each level (or epic power category for E6), I was using the number of gps to represent total treasure value (not a literal pile of coins).  So, 19,000 gp might mean a +2 longsword, a suit of +2 armor, a +2 periapt of health, and a few potions of Fly.  What you were saying at the end of your post made it sound like you thought I was literally talking about coins.

In my E6 game (and I think it's pretty typical this way), once the players reach 6th level, the average EL of their encounters goes up to 6.  When they overcome an EL 6 encounter, they get xp for an EL 6 encounter (1800 xp divided by the number of PCs).  This works out to an average of 450 xp per encounter for a party of 4 PCs.

In a by-the-book E6 campaign, where it takes 5000 xp to gain a feat after level 6, it would take about 12 encounters for these PCs to gain a feat, right?  450xp X 12 = 5400 xp.

After about 60 encounters, the PCs will be at 6+5, which by the book is about 7th level in power.  They'll now be ready for their average encounter level to be bumped up to EL 7.

If you look in the wealth by level guidelines in the DMG, page 135, you'll see that at level 7, the average PC should have about 19,000 gp worth of treasure/gear (most players convert the vast majority of their treasure into gear IME).  

In a standard 3.x game, a 7th level character would have had about 14 EL 6 encounters getting from level 6 to level 7.  Each of these EL 6 encounters would have yielded an average of 2000 gp (according to the treasure per encounter table on page 51 of the DMG).  Divided four ways among four PCs, that would yield about 500 gp per encounter for 14 encounters, or about 7000 gp earned from level 6 to level 7.  Again, a look at the wealth by level guidelines on page 135 reveals that this is pretty accurate, as at level 5 most PCs would have about 13,000 gp (we'll assume they lose about 1000 gp between levels 6 and 7 to expenses and other stuff, leaving them with 19,000 gp at level 7).

Our E6 heroes, however, have had SIXTY EL 6 encounters on their way to 6+5, or about 7th level in terms of power.  Sixty EL 6 encounters yielding 500 gp per PC each is a whopping 30,000 gp.  Unless the DM starts awarding abnormally small amounts of treasure per encounter once the PCs hit level 6, they'll have somewhere around 40,000 gp in cash and equipment (13,000 plus 30,000 minus expenses) by the time they hit 6+5, or about 7th level in terms of power.  But they'll be way over-equipped, which will skew their power level against the EL 7 encounters they'll be facing (the standard 7th level PC would have 19,000 gp in equipment and they will have about 40,000, over double what the game expects)

Am I making sense?

Over time, this discrepancy will increase as the PCs deal with many more encounters (and gain much more treasure) than the system intended them to on their way to the next power level equivalent.

That's really what I'm exploring here.  How large is the discrepancy?  I wanted to know.  Admittedly, I'm using my own house rules as a benchmark, which is probably of less use to someone running a standard E6 game, but the overall conclusion is still there -- E6 characters end up being very overgeared for their power levels.

Is this a big problem?  Does it break the game?  That I don't know.  Discuss if you will.  But it is a reality unless the DM engages in some behavior such as lowering the treasure per encounter after level 6, which I have seen no mention of anyone doing in E6.

Am I making sense?  Not being facetious here, just wanting to know if I'm getting my point across.  

   - Ron   ^*^


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## Scurvy_Platypus

Werebat said:


> After about 60 encounters, the PCs will be at 6+5, which by the book is about 7th level in power.  They'll now be ready for their average encounter level to be bumped up to EL 7.






Werebat said:


> If you look in the wealth by level guidelines in the DMG, page 135, you'll see that at level 7, the average PC should have about 19,000 gp worth of treasure/gear (most players convert the vast majority of their treasure into gear IME).






Werebat said:


> In a standard 3.x game, a 7th level character would have had about 14 EL 6 encounters getting from level 6 to level 7.






Werebat said:


> Unless the DM starts awarding abnormally small amounts of treasure per encounter once the PCs hit level 6, they'll have somewhere around 40,000 gp in cash and equipment (13,000 plus 30,000 minus expenses) by the time they hit 6+5, or about 7th level in terms of power.  But they'll be way over-equipped, which will skew their power level against the EL 7 encounters they'll be facing (the standard 7th level PC would have 19,000 gp in equipment and they will have about 40,000, over double what the game expects)




Ok, NOW I understand your point.



Werebat said:


> Is this a big problem?  Does it break the game?  That I don't know.  Discuss if you will.  But it is a reality unless the DM engages in some behavior such as lowering the treasure per encounter after level 6, which I have seen no mention of anyone doing in E6.




I personally ran an E8 game, so I didn't bump up against this in the same way.

Would it be a problem?  Hmmmm. I actually do think that's something of a good question. Part of where the answer lies is in how the GM is dealing with magic items in their game (I think) and part of it is how the question, " What do you do when you hit max level?" is answered. If hitting 6th level isn't significant in any way, other than no more levelling for characters, then yeah I can see a definite problem.

I guess part of what I'm saying is, flip it the other way around. Once characters hit "Epic" in standard D&D, what is it they're doing or at least supposed to do? If it's just "hang out and kill more monsters" then I guess there's definitely a problem.

On the other hand, if they're supposed to be doing other stuff, then I think that it's taken care of. The simple answer is, yes ordinarily they would be over equipped but it's something of an apples and oranges thing.

Yes, they've moved up to "level 7". But as you also pointed out, they're 60 enounters tougher than a "normal" level 7 character, just without all the extra bits a level 7 normally gets.

At 12 encounters to level, that means the new "level 7" is really a level 11. Isn't this about the point where characters are kinda supposed to be wrapping up the usual sociopath in the sewers sort of thing and be on to more kingdom level stuff?

If an E6 game basically means "we still dungeon crawl but nobody levels" there might be some definite problems. On the other hand, if the scope/nature ofthe game continues to evolve (and the characters have basically just hit their peak in terms of physical capability) then I think it's not nearly the problem it might appear on first blush.

Ok, so for example... Take some books like the Taltos series by Steven Brust. The main character is an assassin and sure, he gets in fights and bumps people off. The character doesn't appreciably change in terms of capability in the books. Effectively, you could say he's hit the level cap. But while fighting and killing does show up in the book, it's not just _about_ that. He's involved in political intrigue, there's folks trying to bump him off, etc.

Lots of media (novels, TV shows) feature characters that are at the top of their game. In theory, they shouldn't have any problem dealing with...whatever. What we enjoy seeing is how these experts deal with larger than life things and how they still _do_ get challenged even though they're at the top.

I think D&D suffers from a real problem of doing the level grind (kill monsters and take their stuff). Hitting the level cap basically means, "ok time to start over. We saved the world, it's done, new characters". There's not usually a lot of time given to just hanging out and _enjoying_ being at the top of your game; of course, most of D&D seems to be about being at the top of your game killing new and interesting creatures.

I know at first reading this doesn't seem to be particularly helpful, but I think it's something GMs need to figure out... what's your game about? Answering that is going to help figure out whether the encounter discrepancy is going to be a problem or not.

Thanks for taking the time to explain it, I think it's something that some folks might not really have thought about.


----------



## Votan

One of the limiting factors on gear in E6 is the caster level of 6; you can only get so many non-expendable items and the bonuses are not that high.  IIRC, you are limited to plus one weapons and only one stat booster (strength) that fall under the cap. 

So I'd expect players to seek to use wealth for other things over time, perhaps replicating the fortress building of earlier editions.


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## Werebat

Votan said:


> One of the limiting factors on gear in E6 is the caster level of 6; you can only get so many non-expendable items and the bonuses are not that high.  IIRC, you are limited to plus one weapons and only one stat booster (strength) that fall under the cap.
> 
> So I'd expect players to seek to use wealth for other things over time, perhaps replicating the fortress building of earlier editions.




IMC, we use the Magic Item Compendium.  This changes a lot.  There are many, many useful items available for every body slot, and adding new powers to existing items is a lot easier (and less expensive) if you use the rules included in that book (which I personally think to be a good idea).

Even without MIC, I think E6 allows for +2 weapons to be crafted, as well as stat enhancers up to +4 (all).  Throw in a special material like adamantium and you're talking 12,000 gp plus just for a magic sword, so the money has places it can go.

Personally I simplified by ruling that CL for items could be lowered to 6th so long as no spell higher than 3rd level was used in the item's creation (and PC can personally craft with their 4th level spells if they've earned them with epic feats).

It's interesting to see what people do with E6 and what their assumptions are about what the PCs should be doing after level 6.  IMC the PCs are at 6+10 and haven't really left the "psychopaths in the sewers" stage; in fact they are literally fighting fungus-infested kuo-toa in the caves under a city right now (the old Lord of the Scarlet Tide adventure from Dungeon magazine, if anyone remembers).

My next shot at E6 is probably going to be an adaptation of Pathfinder's Kingmaker, so it might fall more in line with what Scurvy_Platypus envisions E6 to be.

Personally I think lowering the xp required to gain an epic feat to 2,500 per is a good idea, in part because it alleviates the overgearing associated with E6.  Of course my way of doing things is the best for everyone so everyone should switch to it right now.  

   - Ron   ^*^


----------



## Scurvy_Platypus

Votan said:


> One of the limiting factors on gear in E6 is the caster level of 6; you can only get so many non-expendable items and the bonuses are not that high.  IIRC, you are limited to plus one weapons and only one stat booster (strength) that fall under the cap.
> 
> So I'd expect players to seek to use wealth for other things over time, perhaps replicating the fortress building of earlier editions.




And being the opinionated platypus I am, I gotta chime in too....   

This limit is really more a function of "players can craft magic items", rather than something that has to apply to the entire gameworld.

For example, there's a fantastic book done some time back called, "The Artificer's Handbook". It approaches crafting magic items from a different perspective and adopting those rules (in the background) means that you've got a lot more possibilities that have opened up. Instead of wild-eyed mages crafting everything in sight, you'd have guilds that basically create high-end custom pieces for special clients. Governments that contract guilds, cursed items created by forced mageslave labour... all sorts of possibilitites.

The core of the rules are OGC and were posted for free here at ENWorld. Check them out here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/other-rpg-discussion/240200-artificer-handbook-update.html

I have always said and will continue to say, E6/E8 doe _not_ have to equal "low magic" or "grim and gritty". It's a popular user choice, but either through houeruling of one sort or another, or plugging in a new rules-framework like the Artificer's Handbook, you can live in a pretty magic rich environment. I'm a major fan of E6/E8 because I find the constant inflation that goes on in the game to be pointless and annoying. At higher levels it breaks the game down. But I allow spells up to and including Teleport and I'm a big fan of magic dripping everywhere, having spent 20 years doing the "low magic" thing and being fed up with it.


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## Scurvy_Platypus

Werebat said:


> It's interesting to see what people do with E6 and what their assumptions are about what the PCs should be doing after level 6.  IMC the PCs are at 6+10 and haven't really left the "psychopaths in the sewers" stage; in fact they are literally fighting fungus-infested kuo-toa in the caves under a city right now (the old Lord of the Scarlet Tide adventure from Dungeon magazine, if anyone remembers).
> 
> My next shot at E6 is probably going to be an adaptation of Pathfinder's Kingmaker, so it might fall more in line with what Scurvy_Platypus envisions E6 to be.




*cough*

Errr.. I don't think I actually said what I thought E6 was.    Just that the way the game is structured, the expectations of many players, and the overall push of many adventures all expect that the game style changes in a particular way over time. IF people play/run the game in an "evolving" fashion, then some of the gold/item issues will take care of themselves I think. IF people run a frozen hack-n-slash (ie killing things and taking their stuff is the primary activity), then yes I think there can definitely be problems. That's mainly what I was saying, as well as pointing out that there are options.

Me? I think E6 is all about making the game yours. You spent the money on the books, you're running the game, screw what everyone else on the internet thinks is the "right" way to play and run the game, screw what the company says you should be doing. Do what works for you and your group.

Lot of folks came to E6 because they wanted to clamp player's choices so that "game ruining" spells like teleport weren't around, as well as liking the weaker levels of the game. I came to it because after a while it seems like a lot of those old computer rpg games where a character at 1st level is throwing spells that do 150 points of damage and then they eventually reach 100th level and are throwing thousands of points; just whack off some zeroes already. I've never held with the "zero to hero" paradigm that most gamers seem obsessed with, so E6/E8 is simply an easy way to "benchmark" the overall capabilities of spells, foes, and magic in the world and then get on with the groovy ass-kicking that my crew is showing up for.

Angel and Alias were great tv shows, despite the fact that they were mostly hack-n-slash. How E6/E8 gets used is a personal thing, but don't think I've got something against the sociopath sewercrawlers just because I call 'em as I see 'em.


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## Votan

Werebat said:


> Even without MIC, I think E6 allows for +2 weapons to be crafted, as well as stat enhancers up to +4 (all).  Throw in a special material like adamantium and you're talking 12,000 gp plus just for a magic sword, so the money has places it can go.
> 
> Personally I simplified by ruling that CL for items could be lowered to 6th so long as no spell higher than 3rd level was used in the item's creation (and PC can personally craft with their 4th level spells if they've earned them with epic feats).




Okay, you are right, +2 weapons require a caster level of six.  

Gauntlets of Ogre Power; CL 6th

But other stat boosters:

Amulet of Health; CL 8th

So, using the core magic item rules, you can't create most stat boosters.  I saw this as a major advantage as it limited the Christmas tree effect.  If you allow items of higher levels, I'd take a page from the epic rules and make the cost much, much higher.


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## slwoyach

I don't like the +2 limit on magic items, I'm thinking of adding a craftsman class similar to the Star Wars technician (I can't remember the class name at the moment) and allowing mastercraft bonuses to stack with magical bonuses.


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## fireinthedust

`The point of E6 for me is keeping the math simple.  I want to make up, say, 20 dungeons and spread them around the world.  The PCs can research each one, find it, and finish it whenever they wish: the challenges won't be too different, especially if most of the trash monsters are orc-level critters, and the bbeg's can be whatever level they need to be.  A 9th level monster is going to challenge them anywhere from 6+0 to 6+10 at least.  And the traps, especially logic-focused ones, will always get them.


Adding higher bonuses to the characters is kinda against the point.  I don't want to have my dragons wearing slippers of spider climb and cloaks of protection (as it just looks silly to describe them), I want to use the stat block out of the bestiary/mm.  I like to imagine that the original creatures are balanced against 6th level characters.  Giving too many bonuses means re-doing the math for every creature and encounter.  You might as well have a regular game up to 20th, at this rate.


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## Werebat

See, to me, the main thing is keeping the top-tier goofiness out of the campaign.  Maybe "goofiness" isn't the right word, but it does FEEL that way to me.

That being said, I see no reason to block any items from an E6 game, provided the spells that they emulate are 3rd level and below.  Why not drop the caster level requirement for crafing magic items (WotC did, depending on which official you ask)?  You add a lot of fun variety and not anything particularly unbalancing.

One thing I did stick with was the level limit for "plus" enchantment of weapons and armor.  +2 is the limit for what PCs can craft or buy, but a legendary weapon forged by the gods (or even just "the giants of old") might be +3 or higher.

Again, the game is what you want it to be.  For me, opening the doors to some more low-powered magic items isn't really problematic.

And as I pointed out, even if you DON'T, you'll still have a problem with overgearing.  The wizard or party UMD-er can always buy more wands, etc.

   - Ron   ^*^


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## slwoyach

A major fix for magic items would be to allow craft wondrous item to be more flexible.  3e's rules for magic item creation were really weird, you can't craft a magical ring at 6th level but you can craft a wondrous item that does the same exact thing but _doesn't_ take up an item slot.  Wonky.

I'd suggest having 3 feats; craft wondrous item, craft magical arms and armor, and brew potion.  Just make the ability to scribe scrolls part of the wizard class.


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## Votan

Werebat said:


> One thing I did stick with was the level limit for "plus" enchantment of weapons and armor.  +2 is the limit for what PCs can craft or buy, but a legendary weapon forged by the gods (or even just "the giants of old") might be +3 or higher.
> 
> Again, the game is what you want it to be.  For me, opening the doors to some more low-powered magic items isn't really problematic.




I strongly agree with the second paragraph and I think the +3 sword forged by the giants of old is kind of cool.  But I admit that one ft he things that attracted me to E6 was the low power of the magic items.  This reduces the Christmas tree effect (leaving only the flavorful strength booster, for example) and means that at "High Epic" the players will focus on expendable items.  

But a higher magic campaign might be an interesting middle course.


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## VanceMadrox

Hey all,

I recently stumbled across E-6 and I think it'll be very much to my liking.


My biggest issue with it is that I've switched whole-heartedly to Pathfinder and for Pathfinder E-8 seems to work better. There are lots of classes that get suitable capstone abilities at 8th level. The real issue is with Clerical domains though. Some domains grant powers at 6th and some at 8th. Using E-6 would discourage players from using domains whose powers don't kick in till 8th and that's not something I want.


What I'm looking for are specific spells/feats/issues with E-8 versus E-6. From what I can see most of the game changing spells are 5th level not 4th.  I can see a few spells that may be too powerful (Black Tentacles, and Confusion for one). The bulk of 4th level spells don't seem like they'd be an issue though.

I also understand the challenege difference. A squad of 1st level town guardsmen would have a much harder time with an 8th level character versus a 6th. In any game I run though any guardsman who'd been one for a few years would be at least 2nd level possibly 3rd. Would this help alleviate this issue?

When I run a game using this I'm inclined to use the leaning up approach. I think my ideal is E-8 with Epic/Prestige feats allowing access to abilities that would normally be available to 10th level characters. This would include casters being able to get 1 5th level spell each though the spell would be subject to DM approval.

Any thoughts?


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## Werebat

Dimension Door is also a game changer, although some supplements include a 2nd level spell that does almost the same thing so far as escaping grapples is concerned.

Why not just lower the domain boosts to 6th level?  If that's your only issue, it seems like a simple fix.  Or, have them kick in when the PC reaches 6+5 or 6+10 feats?

   - Ron   ^*^


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## VanceMadrox

It's not just domains, that was one of the bigger reasons though. The domain powers are balanced for 8th level. Giving them at 6 doesn't seem right. And requiring they use feats for them after 6th still would encourage people to simply take other domains I think.

There's also abilities several other classes. There's also huge animal wild shape for druids, improved uncanny dodge for rogues, damage reduction for barbarians and lots of other thing I would want to include from 7-8.


Beyond that though I've looked magic items and there's a LOT of caster level 9-10 items that I would want in a world. Bags of holding, flaming swords, carpets of flying, crystal balls. These are all faorly staple fantasy items. I could take the "created by gods" approach but personally I like the idea that mortal hands could potentially make this item, albeit it'd have to be a very high level caster.

There's several 9-10th level abilties for classes to that I would want as capstones/epic feats. While I could go for E6 leaning up toward 9-10, I think E8 might work better.

The only real disadvantage I see to E8 is a few of the 4th level spells. On the whole most of them are fine. I don't have a problem ith Dimension Door. EPIC Wizards should be able to teleport away imo. And it doesn't present the same scry & die problems Teleport does. I'm ok with scrying too. Solid fog is nerfed in pathfinder. Ditto with Divine Power. Black Tentacles and Reincarnate might have to be left out. Overall though there aren't a lot of offenders.

Doing it with E8 leaning up would also allow me to have spellcasters who are able to cast a 5th level spell once or twice a day. This allows such things as the Witch who can turn you into a frog. Or the enchanter who can control your mind. Personally this is something I like. 

There are several other little things too.
The leadership feats requires level 7.
Lesser geas works on 7th level and lower. This means that EPIC characters would be immune and I like the diea of some people being so powerful that the spell doesn't function on them.

Really other than a few spells I don't see why E6 is much better than E8.


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## fireinthedust

VanceMadrox said:


> Beyond that though I've looked magic items and there's a LOT of caster level 9-10 items that I would want in a world. Bags of holding, flaming swords, carpets of flying, crystal balls. These are all faorly staple fantasy items. I could take the "created by gods" approach but personally I like the idea that mortal hands could potentially make this item, albeit it'd have to be a very high level caster.
> 
> Really other than a few spells I don't see why E6 is much better than E8.




Magic items:  there are lots of solutions.  You could have ancient cultures where this stuff was possible.  You could have some epic monsters, who have high caster levels, make this stuff.  A Rakshasa offering bags of holding to its minions is a temptation for PCs.  Locations and artefacts also come to mind to allow this stuff.  And, as always, they can find them in the horde of a Dragon, or a vault of dwarven gold.

There isn't an issue with E8 that I can think of, except that you're that much higher level.  Monsters like Orcs are no longer a challenge, and you need something else to step in as the common minion.  Orcs with class levels, for example, works but is more work for you.  Look less at player abilities and more at the creatures around them.  Look at the skill bonuses for how far they can, for example, jump (tall buildings in a single bound?).  As long as the math works, that's great.  And if it works for your group, so much the better.  It's just that you'll be using a higher tier of monster a lot sooner.  Those BBEGs will have access to some of the "goofiness" of the higher tiers, especially as you get to e8+20.  So it's less what they can do, and more the world around them that I'd point out.

I'd still play a game like that, tho.  Could be fun, and PCs get a level or two of a PrC if they want.


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## Werebat

You're free to do what you like of course.  Many people prefer E8.

I would just lower the req for Leadership back down to 6th, or maybe make it an epic feat.

I wasn't talking about having the domain ability cost a feat, I meant give it to them for free but not until 6+5 or 6+10.  So they still get it but not until they reach the equivalent of 8th level.

However, abilities above 6th level CAN be given out as epic feats.  

Here's how I work it in my campaign:

At 6th level, every character decides if they want to be a "gestalt" character or if they want to declare a capstone class.  

Gestalt characters can use epic feats to get class abilities in any class they have at least one level in, that they could have acquired if they had taken 6 levels in that class (for example, an increase of +1 to BAB, caster level (including spells known/per day), +1d6 sneak attack, Evasion, etc).  Eventually they will have all the powers of a gestalt character (wizard/rogue, ranger/barbarian, etc).

Characters with a capstone class (which will include all characters with only one class) instead get three "capstone feats" which grant them abilities usually reserved for higher levels in that class.  For example, a wizard might get two (DM-approved) 4th level spells added to his spell book, and the ability to cast 1 4th level spell per day (plus any bonii from high Int), while a monk might get a "bump" in unarmed damage.  I have three of these "capstone feats" written out for every class, so players know what will be available; again, you can find them here if you look, or I'd be happy to repost if you wanted.

   - Ron   ^*^


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## VanceMadrox

I understand that abilities above level 8 can be given out using the leaning up approach. 

My dilemma is that there are some 9th and 10th level abilities I'd like available. Rather than lean up that far I think E8 might be a better choice for me. 

I also don't really see that it'd be much more work as a DM. 1st level Warrior Orcs might no threaten but statting up a 3rd level warrior orc once or twice barely takes any time.

The Gestalt vs Capstone idea is interesting. I think I've seen your list but it was for 3.5 so wouldn't be entirely accurate for Pathfinder. I also don't like the idea of every character of a class eventually getting the same 3 capstone abilities personally.



As for Magic Items I understand you can take the relics from a bygone era or forged by starnge and powerful entities approach. If I did go with E6 I would definitely use this approach. I like the idea of having mortals who can forge some of the items I mentioned. Granted there may only ever be one mortal who has the ability to do it but that's fine by me. With E8 leaning up to 10 I also don't have to worry about Incantations. Just about every spell I would in the game want is 5th or lower. I kind of like the idea of a world where high powered Magic simply isn't possible, even through ritual. I can see the appeal of using it for an E6 game though.


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## Werebat

IMO the capstone abilities need a little more variety to help them compete with gestalt appeal.  So far I have been very open to players wishing to take some other ability not mentioned as a capstone ability, so effectively there ARE more than three choices IMC, those are just the standard ones.

I plan to switch over to PF myself, and will likely have to edit my system when I do.


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## NichG

Even in an E6 universe, it's possible for mortal mages to get fairly high caster levels if they use the right feats and things like magical locations. You can get +2 or +3 caster level via Elder Giant magic, +1 to spells of certain subtypes with domains or reserve feats, etc. At that point, you can start making Ioun stones... This makes things > caster level 6 logically exceedingly rare, but not impossible for specialized wizards or clerics to produce. When I ran an E6 game, one of the PCs went this route and was able to get his caster level for item creation obscenely high by the end of the campaign by bootstrapping his way up - it was somewhere around 18 when he was in the right circumstances: on a ship, with a full moon out, in his sanctum, etc, etc. That's as a wizard; it would've been much easier if he had been a cleric - there are feats that let you exchange turn attempts for up to +3 caster level, the bead of Karma is +4, the Ankh of Ascension is +4...

Another way you could do it that requires less character optimization would be to grant a bonus to caster level for using a magical location in order to require questing to make things > caster level 6. Go to the heart of a volcano to forge a flaming sword, go to the corpse of a god on the Astral to make a bag of holding... 

Maybe certain materials are available that bridge the gap for specific items you want to be common but are otherwise too high caster level. Phase spider silk is, if not trivial to get, available in quantity in principle, and is listed as being a major component for portable holes.

So there are a couple ways around the item issue.


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## VanceMadrox

True but once again, I'm using Pathfinder not 3.5 Splat books.


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## Mark Chance

Werebat said:


> And as I pointed out, even if you DON'T, you'll still have a problem with overgearing.  The wizard or party UMD-er can always buy more wands, etc.




Not if those things aren't for sale.


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## Oozemaster

I only recently discovered E6, and I am considering running a game with it in the near future.  I have come up with my own variation on it, and I wanted to run it by you guys and see what you think.  It's a kind of escalating gestalt system where characters continue to gain levels in addition to feats.

It would go like this:

Characters level up normally for the first 6 levels, following the rules of D&D 3.5 and regular E6.  At level 6, they will have completed their first round of development.  As a reward, they get to raise one ability score by one point, just as they did at level 4.

After characters earn 5000 more XP, they get a feat, as per the regular E6 rules.

After they earn another 5000 XP, things get more interesting.  They choose another class level to take and become Gestalt characters, with their 6 previous levels on one side and their new level on the other.  Characters can take levels in any classes they qualify for, even if they did not meet the qualifications when they were originally level 1, but they can never take more than 6 levels in a single class.  Shared class features are the greater of that granted by the new level or the combined total of the first 6 levels.

For example, a Wizard 5/Divine Oracle 1 decided to begin his new gestalt with a level of Rogue.  The character's hit points do not change, because 5d4 + 1d6 is greater than 1d6.  However, the second hit point total should still be recorded and kept in case it eventually rises above the first.

Continuing with the example, a first level Rogue has a 0 for base attack bonus, so that doesn't change.  The Rogue has 0/2/0 for Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.  The Wizard 5/Divine Oracle 1 has 1/1/6.  2 is more than 1, so the Rogue's reflex save is used.

The Wizard 5/Divine Oracle 1 has 18 skill points.  The Rogue 1 has 24 skill points.  So the character immediately gains 6 skill points to be spent using the Rogue's skill list.

None of the Rogue's class features overlap, so they are all added in and the character is ready to go.

5000 XP later, the character gains another feat.  5000 XP after that, the character gains another level.  It is added following the same rules as above, except that now the combined totals of the first six levels are being balanced against the combined totals of the second two levels.

Advancement continues in that manner, alternating feats and levels every 5000 XP.

After the character has earned 80,000 XP, or shortly after level 13 following regular 3.5 rules, the character will have reached 6th level for the second time, and is now a 6//6 gestalt with 6 extra feats.  Once again, as a reward, one ability score can be raised by one point.

Upon gaining 5000 more XP, the character gains a feat.  5000 XP after that, the character gains another level and begins a third side to the gestalt, following the same rules as above.

After earning a total of 145,000 XP, or about halfway between levels 17 and 18 under regular rules, the character will have reached level 6 for the third time and may once again raise an ability score by one point.

5000 XP later they get a feat.  5000 XP after that they can begin on the fourth side of their gestalt.  Repeat ad infinitum.

And that's basically it.  I like it.  I think it will add more variety and a little more power while preserving the things that attracted me to E6 in the first place.  I also like that it allows players to actually take levels of prestige classes rather than just mimicking them with feats.  I think even allowing six levels of prestige classes should work, as most of the ones that would cause problems are still impossible to join in the first place.

So, what do you guys think?  Do you see any glaring flaws?


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## slwoyach

I allow characters to choose between a gestalt level and a bonus feat, though no character may ever have more than one class above level 4.  This includes prestige classes.  If a character reaches 6th level and desides to prestige he can only attain 4th level in that prestige class.  If he manages to qualify for a PrC at level 4 he can switch and advance to the 6th level of that class.

Characters may also prestige prior to reaching level 6 by spending feats, even as early as 1st level.  The cost to gain access to a new class is one feat, after that each class level also costs one feat.  So 2 feats grants the first class level, allowing a human to begin his career as a level 1/1 gestalt.

I know gestalting is more powerful than any single feat, but I'm ok with that.  Oddly I've only had one player ever gestalt and he's not even currently in my game.  For my next campaign I'm thinking of giving ever class prerequisites, making every single class after the first in effect a prestige class (and more difficult to gestalt into).


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## Gilladian

It seems to me that these optional gestalt rules do exactly what I am getting away from with regular 3.5. 

1) they make running regular, common, easy to find lower level modules hard work again, because you've got to go in and tinker with every single npc or monster to match the PCs.

2) the characters might as well just keep going up levels if they keep getting more and more powerful with all these abilities. The "power curve" hasn't been interrupted.

I'll be starting an E6 campaign in the not-too-distant future (after I finish running what is scheduled to become a very wahoo campaign over the next six months). I'm looking forward to it being simple, sandboxy (because I'm placing many small modules into a region) and much less burden on me.


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## slwoyach

Gilladian said:


> 2) the characters might as well just keep going up levels if they keep getting more and more powerful with all these abilities. The "power curve" hasn't been interrupted.




It doesn't make them nearly as powerful as going up in levels would.  There's no 4th level spells, there's no jumping like the Hulk, there's no +20 BAB, etc.  A fighter 6/Rogue 4/Duelist 4 has a +6 BAB (same as f6), 6d10 hips (same as f6), a +5 Fort (same as a f6), a +4 reflex (same as a f6 with great fortitude), and 10 fewer feats in exchange for some bonus skill points and nifty class abilities (some of which require the some severe limitations).

Those 10 feats are the equivalent of 50,000 experience points, which would put a non-E6 fighter at only 1,000 short of level 12.  A 12th level fighter would absolutely destroy the above fighter.


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## locworks

Oozemaster said:


> I only recently discovered E6, and I am considering running a game with it in the near future.  I have come up with my own variation on it, and I wanted to run it by you guys and see what you think.  It's a kind of escalating gestalt system where characters continue to gain levels in addition to feats.<snip>
> 
> So, what do you guys think?  Do you see any glaring flaws?




One minor flaw: Quadruple skill points are gained only at first character level.

I think I see what you are trying to achieve (more flavour). I'm wondering if it wouldn't be more straightforward to convert the desired class features to feats and/or to grant feats more frequently after the character reaches level 6? This would preserve the E6 power level and keep character advancement as is.


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## Werebat

So, I'm nearing the end of my E6 campaign, and after trying for a few years, I'd have to say the experiment has been less than successful.

Three of my players flat out DON'T LIKE E6 -- in fact, one of them recently quit partly because of it.  The other three don't seem to mind it but aren't all jazzed up by it either.

Personally, I love it.  I'd love to play in an E6 game.  But my players...

If asked, they dance around the issue of WHY they don't like it.  Combat is always the same, we want more variety, etc.  I still think the issue is really, "We want access to high level spells", but no one ever actually SAYS that.

So I'm wondering.  Could this work, for a future campaign?

Standard 1-20 D&D, but cut out the high level magic.  Only spells of level 3 and below can be cast.  Higher level casters keep getting spell slots of higher level, but can only fill them with metamagic versions of lower level spells.  For example, Empowered Fireball might fill a level 5 spell slot.

Ideally, it's the only change I'd need to make, other than possibly making metamagic feats more available (maybe giving some bonus metamagic-only feats to casters).  By the book, the metamagic versions of lower levels spells are equal in power to the actual higher level spells, so no other changes would need to be made.

Personally I think I'd rather just play my version of E6, as it gives more options and variety to the PCs (IMO).

Any comments, opinions, potential pitfalls people can see?

Thanks,

   - Ron   ^*^


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## Stegyre

Werebat said:


> So, I'm nearing the end of my E6 campaign, and after trying for a few years, I'd have to say the experiment has been less than successful.
> 
> Three of my players flat out DON'T LIKE E6 -- in fact, one of them recently quit partly because of it. The other three don't seem to mind it but aren't all jazzed up by it either.
> 
> Personally, I love it. I'd love to play in an E6 game. But my players...



Bummer, that.

You could always try PbP.  I never seem to see enough E6 campaigns posted (and never manage to get into one).


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## Werebat

Stegyre said:


> Bummer, that.
> 
> You could always try PbP.  I never seem to see enough E6 campaigns posted (and never manage to get into one).




PbP?  I assume it's "Play by XXXX", but I can't figure the second "P".

Any thoughts on my idea?

   - Ron   ^*^


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## fireinthedust

play by post.  Granted, all games are effectively E6, as none last long enough to see higher levels 

I think your idea isn't the best in this scenario.    

firstly:  Clearly you're not listening to your players, as they clearly want something other than what you are willing to supply them.  If you want something more than you want them around, keep ignoring them.

This is just according to what you said:  they don't like E6 because I think they want higher level spells.  ...I want to do 1-20 PCs with the same low-level spells.  You've stated what you think part of the problem is, and then that your solution is to ignore that problem.
     I also wonder if there are other issues that you're aware of that you're not saying; you don't have to, not here, but make sure to address those as well.  It is critical to your success as a DM.  Face the issues, work with them, plan around them, compromise and be inventive.

I mean this with sincerity and I want all ENworlders to have great games.  This is my advice in this scenario, something to think on:   

You need players who want to play the same games as you.  If you're going to host them, make them happy.  Comes with the territory.  If not, you've missed the point.  There is a threshold of discomfort after which they will abandon the game.

Then again, don't forget that you should play with people who you can work with.  If you've got a creative idea and no audience, either shelve the idea, or expand your audience.  Found a different group for one game, and join the others for higher-level play.  No one says you have to exclusively game only one way.

I like E6.  I also think I'm enjoying making higher level monsters.  My group doesn't want high level, they want E6.  I'm stuck.

Also, that 1-20 idea is, I think, a bad idea (IMHO; sorry if it sounds harsh) because you're forgetting what all the monsters do.  You'd end up using lower CR monsters that have been advanced, instead of higher CR monsters whose abilities are designed to challenge characters with access to higher level spells.  Without those spells, do you really think a band of even level 20 PCs stands a chance against Beholders?  Against a Pit Fiend?  These are staples of high level play.  

The reason E6 works is because of the level between monsters like that and what the PCs can do.  *a* dragon is a big threat, as it should be.  One doesn't expect to win, except with a legendary arrow and the location of the dragon's special weak spot.  

Remember, the Spellcasters don't get all their interesting stuff, but Fighters will reign supreme.  How is this fun?  How is it fair?

I suggest Iron Heroes.  Download it if you can't buy it.  Mike Mearls made it, and it's through Malhavok Press, I believe.  It's no-magic D&D with all the monsters you're used to.  1-20, I think.

Or the Conana RPG from Mongoose.  I've heard great things about that.  also 1-20.


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## Stegyre

Werebat said:


> PbP? I assume it's "Play by XXXX", but I can't figure the second "P".



Yeah, play by post, like fireinthedust said. 

Here are at least a couple of places I know of two run such games and to recruit players:

Giantitp: Finding Players (Recruitment) - Giant in the Playground Forums
Mythweavers: Games & Ads - Myth-Weavers

Poke around on both sites and you can find threads on PbP games to get a sense of how it happens.

As for how to satisfy your own players, fireinthedust made some very good points. Basically, you need to ask them what they want, not us. The real advantage of the internet is not that it can tell you what the person next to you wants, but that you can almost certainly find others who want what *you* want. There's an important difference between those.

As for fireinthedust's comments about how your proposal impairs players' ability to fight high CR monsters, let me point you to a recent Giantitp thread, where the goal was making E6 parties to defeat a Balor: Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread] - Giant in the Playground Forums


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## fireinthedust

E6 v. Balor:  Okay, that's awesome.  No time to finish the thread, but I must know if someone did it.  you'd need to do a Pun-Pun, though, or something like it, right?  True Strike for sure...  Maybe a sword of True Strike?

If they can do it, I take it back.  Still, the point of E6 is that, for the most part, this should be stupidly impossible.  And I don't know that a Balor, with SR, can really be taken on except with +35 feats and specially-created gear.  I'm skeptical, but open to having my mind blown.


PBP:  you forgot Right here on ENworld!!!

There, see?  Already things are looking up.


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## fireinthedust

and yes, if you run an E6 game, I will play.

  Or Iron Heroes (I'm tempted to just make PCs for that).

I don't have the Conan rules, but I'd do that, also.  I'm a massive Robert E. Howard fan (thought personally a trim, fit size), so I'd love to get my barbarian warrior on.  Brule the Spear Slayer!


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## Stegyre

fireinthedust said:


> E6 v. Balor: Okay, that's awesome. No time to finish the thread, but I must know if someone did it. you'd need to do a Pun-Pun, though, or something like it, right? True Strike for sure... Maybe a sword of True Strike?
> 
> If they can do it, I take it back. Still, the point of E6 is that, for the most part, this should be stupidly impossible. And I don't know that a Balor, with SR, can really be taken on except with +35 feats and specially-created gear. I'm skeptical, but open to having my mind blown.



The results. I admit, there's at least some cheese going on, and if I were running an E6 game, I don't know how many of these I'd admit, but it is an interesting proof-of-concept, as it were.

I'm with you, in that I don't look for a Balor-whipping E6 game. 

Okay, so far, we've got at least two who'd be happy to do an E6 campaign!


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## Werebat

fireinthedust said:


> and yes, if you run an E6 game, I will play.
> 
> Or Iron Heroes (I'm tempted to just make PCs for that).
> 
> I don't have the Conan rules, but I'd do that, also.  I'm a massive Robert E. Howard fan (thought personally a trim, fit size), so I'd love to get my barbarian warrior on.  Brule the Spear Slayer!




Ha, I didn't expect to be steered towards PbP when I came here.  Probably not my thing, as IME those games do, indeed, peter out quickly.

I understand fireinthedust's points, but with the caveat that it's only my hunch that what the players are missing is high level spells.  They never actually say that, even when asked.

My own version of E6 (posted elsewhere in this thread) leans upward, so the players are already effectively casting "high level" spells if one counts metamagic (last session the mage lobbed an empowered, twin spelled magic missile at a ghost).  Personally, I think the idea I posted here would result in LESS powerful characters overall, possibly weakening martial classes and boosting the casters somewhat.  I think that's the mechanical reality, but I don't think it's actual power mechanics that the players are disliking so much as the way things "feel" to them.

I don't know if they'd be able to take on a balor, but at 6+10 they have taken on (and beaten) a pair of adult fang dragons without anyone dying (an NPC bard with them was one-shotted by a critical hit with a fly-by bite attack, but that was prevented by a player raising the stakes).  At this point, EL 10 encounters are pretty routinely beatable for them.

One of the players who doesn't like E6 has, in all honesty, not seemed happy with ANY game ANYONE has run, ever.  As much as I value his opinion, I have to bear that in mind.

Anyway, it's true, the internet can't help deal with individual situations so much.  My game is down to 5 players now, two of whom don't like E6 but would rather play than not play and three of whom don't seem to mind it; the dynamics could change a lot with another player or two, which is probably my best bet.  After this campaign ends in a few months, I'm going to pitch my next campaign idea, which will be E6 Pathfinder, and if anyone else wants to run a game the group may well vote to play in theirs instead.  Which isn't such a terrible thing because it's not a bad time for me to take a break from DMing (trying for our fourth child here) and, frankly, I'm getting tired of the general heartache of running a game on Monday nights (as opposed to our Saturday night games, where more people can play and for more hours per session).

Thanks for the advice, all.


----------



## Antariuk

Just a quick share of recent toying with E6: I recently discovered this old article about dead class levels. Nothing to get really excited about (the provided features don't really correspond to the level they're given), but I thought that stuff makes up for new E6 feats.

Examples: 



> *Rally Performance (Ex):* Starting at 2nd level, a bard hones his skill as a public musician and can reroll a Perform check  once per day, but only when attempting to impress audiences for the  purpose of earning money. A bard must take the result of the reroll,  even if it's worse than the original roll. See Perform on page 79 of the  _Player's Handbook_.



I would change that to let the bard use it for any Perform checks of course, but I don't know what to make out of this if you are already having/using luck feats/abiliy, action points, or the like.



> *Perceptive Tracker (Ex):* At 14th level, a ranger never takes longer than a full-round action to find tracks with a Survival check. A second roll is still required to follow any discovered tracks.



Makes up for a new option to find invisible creatures in combat, no? 

EDIT: Here is part 2, covering several non-core classes.


----------



## fireinthedust

Werebat said:


> I understand fireinthedust's points, but with the caveat that it's only my hunch that what the players are missing is high level spells.  They never actually say that, even when asked.
> 
> AND
> 
> One of the players who doesn't like E6 has, in all honesty, not seemed happy with ANY game ANYONE has run, ever.  As much as I value his opinion, I have to bear that in mind.





Oooh, that sounds rough.  I have a player who's a bit of a downer, but he's happy to play any game (so long as he can cause trouble, like picking fights, refusing to help other PCs in danger, then getting in danger and needing help.  He's the one you want to give wishes to, mostly because I know he'll need them to make up for horrific screw ups or self-inflicted catastrophes).

I've had some awful people play, who just happen to play D&D.  They suck.  

If this person isn't actually a jerk, though, maybe find out what they're looking for?  Work on a game with them as the GM, maybe.

If the whole group isn't into it, you could try "cunning trickery #3": play a one-shot game they'd never expect, out of left field, so they're ready to go back to the standard game everyone's been enjoying for some time.

Examples:

1)  Arkham Horror (or even a CoC rpg game)

2)  Mutants & Masterminds with pre-generated characters (powerful but with balance in mind)

3)  Gamma world is all the rage, and seems stupidly fun

4)  A one-shot Epic-level (30+) arena where they fight each other, or else a gauntlet where you fight their PCs with published epics from your collection.  If I did this, they'd fight Orcus, Demogorgon, Ashardalon, Cthulhu, Lloth, Asmodeus, and I'd see about statting up the Borg.

Heck, even create a five-room dungeon (or planar labyrinth they have to figure out to pass from layer to layer; they are epic, remember) with this party in mind.  You could base it off Dante's Inferno.  At the end, the prize for the PC who survives the final encounter (which should be horrific) is they're made a demi-god in your next standard game.




> Anyway, it's true, the internet can't help deal with individual situations so much.  My game is down to 5 players now, two of whom don't like E6 but would rather play than not play and three of whom don't seem to mind it; the dynamics could change a lot with another player or two, which is probably my best bet.  After this campaign ends in a few months, I'm going to pitch my next campaign idea, which will be E6 Pathfinder, and if anyone else wants to run a game the group may well vote to play in theirs instead.  Which isn't such a terrible thing because it's not a bad time for me to take a break from DMing (trying for our fourth child here) and, frankly, I'm getting tired of the general heartache of running a game on Monday nights (as opposed to our Saturday night games, where more people can play and for more hours per session).
> 
> Thanks for the advice, all.




No problem, the subject is near and dear.


QUESTION:  what is the flavour of your E6 game?  Is it heavily magical, or low magic?  Do the players routinely fight monsters, or the loggers/thugs of the local lumber baron?  How are they doing for magic?  For other equipment?

Do they get to design their own fortresses or strongholds?  

Do they have villains they hate (ie: rivals, not BBEG; think the Joker, not Sauron)?  

Are the routine minions interesting in themselves?  Like, do you say "you fight yet more goblins" or do you say "the hunchbacked, slobbering goblins are in the village, attempting to sneak infants from their cribs to deliver to their foul mistress, Malificent!"  (and before you say anything, that villain/minion combo was fantastic.  The protagonists were weak, and the heroes were really the three fairies; but conceptually that is the coolest dungeon they could have done for an E6 game).

What is the setting?  Standard European?  Do you avoid the planes/interesting scenery, because they're merely E6?  

Numbers are numbers.  If the PCs are interested in the setting, whatever it is, they'll be happy.

I like to find out what my group enjoys, individually, for when I'm brainstorming for adventures.  Or find things that would totally expand their horizons (ie: give them a fort they can design, and see how they like being in charge; if not, they can leave).


----------



## Werebat

fireinthedust said:


> Oooh, that sounds rough.  I have a player who's a bit of a downer, but he's happy to play any game (so long as he can cause trouble, like picking fights, refusing to help other PCs in danger, then getting in danger and needing help.  He's the one you want to give wishes to, mostly because I know he'll need them to make up for horrific screw ups or self-inflicted catastrophes).
> 
> I've had some awful people play, who just happen to play D&D.  They suck.
> 
> If this person isn't actually a jerk, though, maybe find out what they're looking for?  Work on a game with them as the GM, maybe.
> 
> If the whole group isn't into it, you could try "cunning trickery #3": play a one-shot game they'd never expect, out of left field, so they're ready to go back to the standard game everyone's been enjoying for some time.
> 
> Examples:
> 
> 1)  Arkham Horror (or even a CoC rpg game)
> 
> 2)  Mutants & Masterminds with pre-generated characters (powerful but with balance in mind)
> 
> 3)  Gamma world is all the rage, and seems stupidly fun
> 
> 4)  A one-shot Epic-level (30+) arena where they fight each other, or else a gauntlet where you fight their PCs with published epics from your collection.  If I did this, they'd fight Orcus, Demogorgon, Ashardalon, Cthulhu, Lloth, Asmodeus, and I'd see about statting up the Borg.
> 
> Heck, even create a five-room dungeon (or planar labyrinth they have to figure out to pass from layer to layer; they are epic, remember) with this party in mind.  You could base it off Dante's Inferno.  At the end, the prize for the PC who survives the final encounter (which should be horrific) is they're made a demi-god in your next standard game.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No problem, the subject is near and dear.
> 
> 
> QUESTION:  what is the flavour of your E6 game?  Is it heavily magical, or low magic?  Do the players routinely fight monsters, or the loggers/thugs of the local lumber baron?  How are they doing for magic?  For other equipment?
> 
> Do they get to design their own fortresses or strongholds?
> 
> Do they have villains they hate (ie: rivals, not BBEG; think the Joker, not Sauron)?
> 
> Are the routine minions interesting in themselves?  Like, do you say "you fight yet more goblins" or do you say "the hunchbacked, slobbering goblins are in the village, attempting to sneak infants from their cribs to deliver to their foul mistress, Malificent!"  (and before you say anything, that villain/minion combo was fantastic.  The protagonists were weak, and the heroes were really the three fairies; but conceptually that is the coolest dungeon they could have done for an E6 game).
> 
> What is the setting?  Standard European?  Do you avoid the planes/interesting scenery, because they're merely E6?
> 
> Numbers are numbers.  If the PCs are interested in the setting, whatever it is, they'll be happy.
> 
> I like to find out what my group enjoys, individually, for when I'm brainstorming for adventures.  Or find things that would totally expand their horizons (ie: give them a fort they can design, and see how they like being in charge; if not, they can leave).




All good questions.  First, I feel I should defend my players somewhat.  The two remaining who aren't jazzed up about E6 are a flat-out powergamer who has always been pretty up-front about missing out on the higher levels (although he shows up every session, does what min/maxing he can in E6, and says he'd rather play E6 than not play at all) and the fellow who I haven't seen "jazzed up" about a game in years, if ever.  That second guy drifted out of my last 1-20 campaign for a while and then drifted back in.  He was so-so about joining this campaign back before we (very early on) decided to convert to E6.  He claims he was opposed to E6 from the start but I remember his first reaction to it was positive and he was for the change initially (I remember because I was surprised).

The guy who left was initially very in favor of E6.  I think he left for a variety of reasons.  His attendance had been VERY spotty for over a year (we're talking 25% of the time or so) and, while I hate to see him go, I liken his quitting to cutting off a sick branch.  There's more going on with him but I won't get into that here.

There was a point when the players mentioned above came to me and claimed that they weren't having fun because they felt the feats they were getting weren't enough like gaining levels for them and advancement seemed too slow.  I changed things up a bit in response, allowing feat gain with every 2,500 xp instead of every 5K, and later adding a boost of 1 hp (2 hp for characters with +6 BAB) and 1 skill point per feat gained (max ranks 9).  

The players are playing orcs and goblinoids (goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears) in Eberron, and their main opponents are aberrations working in an effort to bring a return of their Daelkyr masters.  I'd say they mostly fight monsters.  I've heard complaints about equipment, but I always hear those and the numbers don't bear them out (they now have about twice the cash value in equipment that the books recommend for their power levels; furthermore, I encouraged "wish lists" of equipment not allowed in E6 that they could find as "artifacts" and only two players (both mentioned above) bothered making them; one got everything he asked for, and half the items on the other's list are actually purchasable in E6).  I think what the players who care about it WANT is the standard 1-20 3.5 ability to go to ye old magick shoppe and instantly convert cash to any magic item they can pick from browsing the lists in the DMG and MIC (not that that's horrible, it just isn't quite possible in E6).

One of the things going on is that the guy who quit is running the Age of Worms campaign on Saturday nights.  EVERY player who seems to have a problem with E6 is playing in this game (as am I).  The Saturday game is sort of the "real campaign" while the Monday one is the "other game"; no one says that but it's the perception and has been for years.  We play longer sessions on Saturday nights, so advancement is faster, there are more players (8, now), and people just seem more "invested".  Is that because of the night, because of the fact that the DM is doing a better job, because the DM is using a premade adventure, or...?  In any event, the two campaigns get compared.  I figured out in my last campaign (1-20 3.5) that the Monday game was heartache, but I stuck with it when I had the chance to change because at the time I preferred DMing for the people who were playing Monday nights.

<Shrug>

Gotta take the kid to soccer practice...


----------



## fireinthedust

Werebat said:


> The players are playing orcs and goblinoids (goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears) in Eberron, and their main opponents are aberrations working in an effort to bring a return of their Daelkyr masters.




That's exactly the sort of thing I was going to suggest for a colorful E6 game.  Eberron is supposedly a low-level setting (ie: E6) where PCs could go epic, in theory; although some threats are fairly huge.
     Bending over backwards may not work for this group, then.

If it's any consolation, I've wanted to run an M&M game in my homebrew city for years.  No takers.  Lots of griping about how it just isn't as cool as my D&D game; which, admittedly, is pretty awesome.

Monday nights can be weird.  Shorter sessions, comparisons with the bigger, famous Age of Worms game; they'll be getting up there in level, and they can have a story of how they got through that series.  Maybe throw them at some famous modules that are comparable to Age of Worms?  Hard to do at low levels, to find something that could work well... if they were higher level you could grab some Goodman Games modules used in their Gen Con tournaments, like that Devil Witch module for 15th level...  Does Paizo have a famous grind like that?

a thought: what if they're getting too much for free?  Are you confident about the awesomeness of your idea, or desperate for them to like it as much as you know it deserves?  

I remember over-compensating with rewards, but I've learned that making players think they're going to go through a meat-grinder of no hope (or acting like I think that's what they think, even if they don't think so)... well, a meat-grinder with some hope, tends to get them happier than free stuff.  I'm also trying to give them really weird items they'd never expect, that they can use in strange situations (example: they found a corpse in a cunningly hidden trap that had nothing to do with what they were looking to find; on it was a "ring of breathing" that stops suffocation of any sort (not poison); now I'll be dumping everyone in a filling-up-with-water-room, and see how they deal with that).

All I can offer, then, is that you... are playing yourself in an RPG called life.  If you were you in your situation, how would you get yourself out of it?  Assuming you were playing yourself, and using all the cheap tricks you'd use if you were a person playing a character who is yourself and has all your attributes?  You have keen analytical skills, and a cunning and creative mind.


----------



## Werebat

fireinthedust said:


> Maybe throw them at some famous modules that are comparable to Age of Worms?  Hard to do at low levels, to find something that could work well... if they were higher level you could grab some Goodman Games modules used in their Gen Con tournaments, like that Devil Witch module for 15th level...  Does Paizo have a famous grind like that?




Actually, I've already used a coupla Goodman Games modules (I got the special "going out of 3.X" deal a while back and ended up with 2 boxes of modules).  I've been finding that people tend to feel the modules "drag" on Mondays, where we play maybe 5 hours every other week as opposed to 8 hours on Saturdays.  In fairness, there was a time when I ran two of the GG modules back-to-back, which was in retrospect a mistake (although it did prompt the creation of a cool incantation I have since posted to this thread -- the one where you summon an efreet and trade with it).




fireinthedust said:


> a thought: what if they're getting too much for free?  Are you confident about the awesomeness of your idea, or desperate for them to like it as much as you know it deserves?




I have been wondering this.  They are WAY overgeared for their supposed power levels.  I do think that ever since I took Mondays instead of Saturdays (I've been running games non-stop for over 20 years now, with most of these same guys) it's sort of felt like a couple of the players seem to feel that they're doing me a big favor by showing up.  I don't know if it's the night, if I'm getting rusty, or what.  This is one reason why in retrospect I feel that (while he's a good friend and I like him) having that one guy quit may have been a positive thing in the end.  Having him not show over half of the time wasn't good for anyone's morale.




fireinthedust said:


> All I can offer, then, is that you... are playing yourself in an RPG called life.  If you were you in your situation, how would you get yourself out of it?  Assuming you were playing yourself, and using all the cheap tricks you'd use if you were a person playing a character who is yourself and has all your attributes?  You have keen analytical skills, and a cunning and creative mind.




Yeah.  What I've done at this point is to sign up for an event with the local RPG meetup group (I've been a member for years but never attended) next week.  Hopefully I'll meet a potential new player or two.

Meanwhile, I should focus on making my game as interesting as possible until it ends in 8 months or so.  Actually, they're just getting to some very interesting stuff...  

   - Ron   ^*^


----------



## fireinthedust

Mondays could be the culprit, then.  Look also at the hours spent: 5 on Monday, after 8 on Saturday?  13 hours a week of sitting there is a lot, even divided between two groups, especially so close together (within three days).  If it's every week like this, they may be on overdose.  Saturday is getting all the regenerated love and anticipation, you're only getting a day's worth of recovery to build that back up.

Still, they're a dedicated group of RPers if they play both games all the time.  20 years should do it.

Maybe a different day, maybe swap groups and both use Saturday.  That can suck, or may not even be possible (or desirable), just thinking out loud here (if this was a riddle and my Cimmerian got the Gemstone of Thulsa Doom for answering correctly, I'd be working through the problem just like this, fyi; thus the need to design and/or solve dungeons!).

Curiosity here: how do you find making a general game for E6 PCs over the long haul?  I thought about creating the dungeons around the world, to use whenever they found them rather than aiming them at the group.  Do you find that this works?


----------



## Werebat

Well, we play every other Monday, and ever other (alternate) Saturday, for an average of one session per week counting both campaigns.  The only time we'd have less than five days between game sessions is if we had to reschedule a night to an "off week".

I've had a great time running my E6 game!  A lot of the headache of dealing with optimization-board-linked powergamers with access to high level spells goes poof in E6; besides that, E6 is aesthetically closer to what I envision the backdrop to D&D should be.

Over the long haul, the only real problem I have found mechanics-wise is that PCs tend to accumulate a lot more treasure than they should have for their power levels.  At the same time, (some of) my players feel that they don't have enough magic, because most of what they find on enemies is a lot of small magic items (this is due to a combination of our using the Magic Item Compendium, my equipping NPCs with MIC items, and the fact that MIC makes it smarter to equip a ton of minor items than two or three major ones).

I think you're describing "sandbox" style campaigns, where the DM makes a bunch of dungeons and lets the players go where they will.  That's a LOT of work in its pure form.  I don't typically do it; my campaign is more plot driven at this time (although I'd love to run an E6 version of Kingmaker, for example).

   - Ron   ^*^


----------



## Siuis

Zelc said:


> SRD-only PrCs that can be taken:
> Assassin (flavor could be changed to allow for good assassins)
> Horizon Walker
> Elocater
> Metamind
> Psion Uncarnate
> Pyrokineticist
> Slayer
> Thrallherd
> Warmind
> 
> 
> PrCs that can work with reduced requirements:
> 
> Arcane Archer (reduce BAB requirement to +3)
> - Gets Enhance Arrows +1 and Imbue Arrows (with feats, Enhance Arrows +2 and maybe Seeker Arrows)
> - Should get +1 level in arcane spellcasting class per level.  Otherwise, reduce BAB requirement to +2, and increase spellcasting requirement to 2nd level spells.
> 
> Arcane Trickster (reduce arcane spells requirement to level 1 spells, reduce skill requirement to 6)
> - Ranged Legerdemain, Sneak Attack +1d6 (possibly Impromptu Sneak Attack with feat)
> 
> Dragon Disciple (why bother?)
> 
> Duelist (reduce BAB requirement to +4)
> - Canny Defense +2, Improved Reaction +2
> 
> Dwarven Defender (reduce BAB requirement to +5 or +4)
> - Defensive Stance 1/day, maybe Uncanny Dodge (more Defensive Stance with feats)
> 
> Shadowdancer (reduce Hide requirements to 8, remove Combat Reflexes requirement)
> - Hide in Plain Sight (in shadows)




There are several ways around these issues. Arcane archer itself won't work as printed (it's BaB requirement is one point too high) but other PrCs? It is possible to "dope" prerequisites. A quick survey of the SRD PrCs shows that it's nigh impossible to abuse though.
Say we have a rogue 5 assassin 1. All of the assassin requirements are also assassin class skills. Total rebuilding a la PHB2, he can go on a quest, survive by the skin of his teeth (single-handedly beat three CR 9 encounters- ouch) and emerge as an assassin 6. He has the hitdice and skill ranks to qualify for the class, from the class. 
I was thinking of doing this with an ur-priest (and tricking the party into helping with the quest/ritual to accomplish it) and have a villain mad on power with crazy, super-potent 6th level spells.
You can also get a caster level of at least 15 and maybe 18, using the ironsoul forgemaster from magic of incarnum. They have a CL of class level*3 for arms and armor creation, but no spells. Between this and the huge amount of time a max-6th smith needs to make a truly masterwork item, dwarven- and elven-craftsmanship can be the best in the world without DM fiat, so I'd forgive it personally.

I am so glad I've stumbled upon this (via the GiTP forums; figure I owe them a shout-out for this awesome find). This is far and away better than what I was going to do. I'm planning on starting an E6 game in the next two weeks; I fully expect awesome of a caliber I've not seen since I played "whatever my DM said-point-oh" edition when I was ten. Thank you!


----------



## Ydars

Hi all!

I have been DMing an E6 sandbox for about 20-25 sessions and we are having a good time. We are using 22 point buy, slow levelling; requiring 3 x normal experience to go up a level and the danger level is also very high (we have lost 8 PCs so far). We also have very low magic; instead of magic items, various normal weapons  have acquired near magical properties as a result of the players' deeds and I am also allowing extra feats to increase AC or BAB or attributes, based on story and roleplaying.

We even have a PC who has turned from Elf to Ift (a plant  humanoid race) as a result of drinking the sap of a sacred tree to cure a magical disease.

The players did whine at first, but I explained that sandbox play requires a different mindset and several of them have adapted well; some of the others have still not adapted but they are learning.

We are also using the war machine rules from basic D&D (companion) to run the players' small dominion of Leydondale.

I like E6 for one very important reason; somehow, it focuses me on creating personalities and encounters and not on the mechanical side of the game. I sometimes feel like I am writing the background to a fantasy novel; by which I mean that I am not creating stories, only backstories and histories and characters for the players to explore and interact with.

This is the one problem I always had with 3.5; that it focuses players on mechanics and not on roleplaying  because they are always thinking 'which feat/prestige class/spells am I piciking next level?'. This way, they spend 5-7 sessions at the same level and so have to actually concentrate on playing their character as they are.


----------



## kevin_video

I had a thought, and I'd like someone to back me up on this, or give their opinion on it. Since you're only able to go up 6, maybe 8 levels (if you go E8), it seems a little unfair that half templates like Celestial and Fiend keep their +4 LA. Since you only get 1/3 of the SLA, and you'll never get the DR 10/magic because you'll never reach the 12 HD you need to get that, I vouch that it be dropped down to LA +3 instead.

Anyone else consider this before?

BTW, for those that didn't know this, the Arcane Archer got remade into a base class by a third party group who had helped develop the PrC version. It's pretty good. It's built like a Ranger, but with arcane spells.


----------



## SephBaelzara

Thing about a lot of those higher LA races and templates aren't really meant for the typical PC. Sure, the abilities are nifty. Sure, they offer for some good fluff, but in the end? They're more trouble than they're worth.
Personally? In most of my games I allow any race/template combination up to a LA +2 with good reason only, or LA +1 with minor complaint, and LA +0 are, for the most part, let through. Some of them I may have to shoot down, but only because of the world.
The reason? LA Buy-off is always available in my campaigns.


----------



## kevin_video

I have nothing against LA buy-off, and I'll be allowing it in my campaign, but only if they have something that's LA +5 (ie it'll be bought off at lvl 3). However, I don't mind anyone taking any kind of race in my campaign because it'll all fit. I don't like limiting my players. At the same time though, I don't like making them pay for something they're never going to use. I mean, yeah they'll get to use the DR 5/magic for a while, and even a couple of third level spells, but they'll never use SLA from levels 4-9. They just won't get that high a HD.


----------



## Aus_Snow

Well, the Book of... ahem, the 



Spoiler



Book of Exalted Deeds


, um, suggested lowering the LA for Half-Celestial to +3, or even +2 if the DM agrees (blah, etc.), IIRC.


edit: Personally, I believe the LA/ECL/CR system to be totally b0rken, and therefore, I - with some help from various people and documents - came up with an alternative solution. Wouldn't suit everyone - in fact, I can hear the howls already - but yeah, IMO, it works *much* better. Understatement much.


----------



## kevin_video

Uh-huh. And that would be ...?

BTW, that special book has it listed that for every 2 HD you take, you add +1 LA. So at 5 HD, you're +4 LA, then +5 and 7 HD, and so on.


----------



## Ry

I agree that LA is B0rk3n - always was.  My Point buy thing worked for my group.


----------



## kevin_video

Ryan Stou'n said:


> I agree that LA is B0rk3n - always was.  My Point buy thing worked for my group.



Oh I'm not disagreeing with that. I just felt that the half-celestial and half-fiend should have 0 pts for stat buys if they can't get spells like Hallow and Unhallow, or Blasphemy or Holy Word, because they can't get the HD. That lowering it to LA +3 and giving them 10 points to buy stats with might give them more than a 12 in any one stat.


----------



## Stegyre

Ryan Stou'n said:


> I agree that LA is B0rk3n - always was. My Point buy thing worked for my group.



Oh, my goodness: He yet lives!

Sir, I kneel at your feet in paean to your awesum idea that is awesum.


----------



## Ry

Thanks!


----------



## fireinthedust

Okay, I've run my PFrpg E6 game.  It's going well, but the issue is that my PCs are flying through bad guys *without* magic items or uber-weapons.  I've decided that giving Monsters max hp is only necessary.

Guh, PCs are murderers.


----------



## Stegyre

fireinthedust said:


> Okay, I've run my PFrpg E6 game. It's going well, but the issue is that my PCs are flying through bad guys *without* magic items or uber-weapons. I've decided that giving Monsters max hp is only necessary.
> 
> Guh, PCs are murderers.



Are the players having fun?  If they are, it ain't broke.  

Seriously, this just sounds like an issue of optimization.  If your players are good optimizers (and like that sort of game) they will readily trash those theoretically CR-appropriate encounters.  If their having a good time, you're actually doing your job well.  If you sense they'd like a little more challenge, I'd suggest raising the bar _gradually_ until you find the sweet spot.

. . . But you probably already knew all of that.


----------



## Stalker0

Just bouncing in to say that I just started a E6 game for the first time, two sessions in and so far things are going great.


----------



## Lughart

Been lurking these threads for a while, and I want to chime in with a word of appreciation for the inventor. I play/GM an E6 pathfinder game, and while we are just at lvl 5 so far, I can't wait to see what the game holds that regular d20 don't.


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## Brudewollen

I haven't run a game in a number of years and am considering using E6 for my next as it's more in line with the kind of feel I prefer for a fantasy world (lower magic, gritty, etc. - big fan of George R.R. Martin's books).

One simple question I didn't see addressed anywhere.  The OP/inventor makes mention of "Ritual" magic in Unearthed Arcana.  I've been going through my old Unearthed Arcana book and I assume he means the Incantation rules?  I even did a word search on the UA PDF and there doesn't seem to be anything on "ritual magic" in there that I can find.  Please, am I missing something obvious and if so, what page of the UA book is it on?


----------



## kevin_video

No, that's what he's talking about. The incantations are rituals. They just got called "ritual magic".

If you wanted anything different, you'd likely have to house rule other systems, like the Green Ronin books, so that they'd fit better.

You can Google search "D&D ritual magic", and it'll give you a few ideas on what other books you could look at. That's helped me.


----------



## VanceMadrox

What are the relative advantages of E6 vs E8?

I'm looking at it mainly from a Pathfinder perspective but appreciate any comments.


For E6 it seems to be slightly easier prep work and keeping 4th level spells out of PC hands.

For E8 meanwhile, it seems to be a more logical breakpoint for most Pathfinder classes.

Does E8 really not keep the "spirit of E6"?


A few points of comparison to consider:

BaB: It's a 2 point difference for all but ½ BaB classes. Some people may not like the extra +2 to hit but I think the biggest issue here is ¾ BaB classes getting an extra iterative attack. This is really a matter of personal preference. Advantage: Tie

Break point: As has been pointed out in Pathfinder 8th level is a better break point for a lot of classes. Barbarians get damage reduction at 7, Rogues get improved uncanny Dodge. Domains and Arcane Schools vary on when they get their last powers. In E6 this could cause people to shy away from ones that don’t get powers till 8th level. In E8 it’s a non-issue. Sure you can make such things EPIC feats but for ease of use, E8 works better here. Advantage: E8.

Hit Points: 2 levels of hit points matter more than 2 levels of BaB and saves. At 8th level characters can have 70+ HP. I can understand the argument for keeping HP more reasonable. Advantage: E6

Leadership: This really depends on whether you like Leadership or not. By RAW Leadership is not available in E6 and it is in E8. This can be fixed easily by making it an EPIC feat but it still’s something to consider though ultimately a matter of preference: Advantage: Tie

Prep time: E6 keeps things a little lower powered so of course prepping is easier. It may only be a 2 level difference but I have seen from experience that 1st level Orcs out of the Bestiary are no challenege for 8th level characters. They’re not much challenege for 6th level ones either mind you but if they get lucky they’re much more likely to take 1 out. This may really just be because of the more HP though. And if you’re a GM who doesn’t mind throwing a few class levels on something then it’s not much difference. There’s plenty of non-humanoid monsters that can still be used straight out of the book. Advantage: E6

Rules ease: A lot of people who run E6 seem to use the lean up approach and grant a lot of abilities available to regular 7th and 8th level characters as feats. Overall it seems like more work to create EPIC feats for everything you do want instead of playing E* and removing what you don’t. Advantage: E8

Saves: The only difference between 6th and 8th level is 1 point in a class’s good saves. Not a big issue. Advantage: Tie

Setting: In E6 you can create a sandbox world and 1st level characters mostly have a chance to successfully run away from anything. In E8 this is less true. Also the difference between 1st and 6th levels humans is less than that between 1st and 8th and overall seems more believable. To me it seems that in an E6 world you can get away with having most people be 1st level but for E8 it makes more sense if the average person is 2nd or 3rd level. Not a huge issue but something to consider. A matter of personal preference once again: Advantage : tie

Spells: A lot of people seem to point out higher level spells as something that complicates things and makes caster too powerful at higher levels. Personally with a few exceptions I don’t see an issue with most 4th level spells. There’s also lesser caster to consider. In E8 Alchemists, Bards, Inquisitors, and Summoners get 3rd level spells, in E6 they don’t. Looking on the lists I don’t see a lot of problematical spells here either. Advantage: E6 but only slightly.

Any thoughts? Anyone actually try both E6 and E8? If so how were your experiences with both?


----------



## Ry

E8 has a couple of problematic spells, like Evard's Black Tentacles, which can completely neutralize a character.  8th level in 3.5 was the very beginning of the magic-item arms race, as I saw it.

But I don't know Pathfinder well enough to comment.  E8 may well be a better fit for Pathfinder.


----------



## VanceMadrox

There are definitely a few 4th level spells that might need to banned and I have my eye on Black Tentacles as one possibility.

With the way grappling works now in Pathfinder I'm not sure it needs it though.

It's still a game breaker against non fighting types but from personal experience I've seen that there's a good chance that a fighting type won't be grappled. Being grappled is also not as bad as it use dto be.

Pathfinder has mechanics called Combat Manuever Bonus (CMB) and Combat Manuever Defense (CMD)

Basically roll a d20, add your CMB and if it meets or beats the opponent's CMD it works.

For Black tentacles CMB is Caster Level + 4 (STR) +1 Size. Sp at 8th level it's CMB is +13.

CMD is 10+ BaB + Str Mod + Dex Mod + Size Mod (0 for medium)
At 8th level a fighting type could easily have a a +4 in str or dex and a =3 in another (or +5 and +2). Adding in 8 BaB and that's a CMD of 25.

So against a well built fighting type the Caster needs a 12 or higher on the d20 to grapple the fighter type.

It's a little harder to break out of the grapple. For breaking out the spell's CMD is 10+ it's CMB bonus. So CMD 23.

CMB is BaB + Str Mod + Size Mod.
Assuming an 18 Str and an 8 Bab that's a +12 on the die roll. That means the figher only needs an 11 on the die.


For non fighting types it's a little worse but overall Black tentacles is much less deadly in Pathfinder.


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## Ry

If you decide to go Pathfinder E8, I would recommend that you slow down the 7th and 8th level advancement, and make those levels more rare in the NPC world.  Those are definitely big levels.


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## VanceMadrox

I can see that point.

7th and 8th level characters should be akin to Hercules, Jason, King Arthur, Merlin and the like. Legends among men.

I'm still highly debating the merits of both E6 and E8 and have not made a decision.
E6 is certainly more in the realms of human while E8 reaches the beginnings of superhuman.

But E8 really does seem to work better as a break point for Pathfinder classes.


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## Gilladian

I just started an e6 campaign this weekend, and am posting campaign notes (not a true story journal) here: Vishteer Campaign / Campaign Notes

It will mostly be Dragon's Delve and some Kingmaker sandboxed together, for those who are curious.

I'll comment on how well E6 works as I go along...


----------



## Kingreaper

VanceMadrox said:


> I can see that point.
> 
> 7th and 8th level characters should be akin to Hercules, Jason, King Arthur, Merlin and the like. Legends among men.
> 
> I'm still highly debating the merits of both E6 and E8 and have not made a decision.
> E6 is certainly more in the realms of human while E8 reaches the beginnings of superhuman.
> 
> But E8 really does seem to work better as a break point for Pathfinder classes.



An option to consider: When they would hit 7th, give a feat, as for E6. When they'd get the second bonus feat, they hit 7th. Then 2 or 3 feats before hitting 8th. Then, they never reach ninth.

It's a bit of a combo of E6 and E8, and makes it more obvious that the final two levels are big.


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## Achan hiArusa

What about the use of incantations ala Urban Arcana in E6, would you allow them and what restrictions or spells would you ban?

Typically I throw away spell seeds and use actual spells as seeds and modify them (I also did this in a Epic game for epic spells).


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## VanceMadrox

Actually that's another good difference between the two.

With E6 I feel that incantations are almost necessary.

With E8 (using a leaning up approachto allow a couple important 5th level spells) I don't feel that incantations are necessary.


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## Emirikol

I cant believe this thread is still going.  Its like the energiZer bunny


..I usually burn out by the 2nd half of these systems not because of the game..but because of lack of scenario support...

jh


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## Ry

I actually would re-boot the thread again, maybe in a different subforum. 

But I'd want to do a rewrite of the E6 .pdf first, and before I could do that I'd want to be sure that I could get good layout for it.  

I'm not sure J.A.Dettman has the time anymore (I sent him an e-mail to query, though.)


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## joela

*Published E6 Product?*

Would there be interest in the purchase of a published E6 supp like a campaign setting?


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## Achan hiArusa

I've reposted my question at:  http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...n-what-about-incantations-e6.html#post5488680


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## slwoyach

joela said:


> Would there be interest in the purchase of a published E6 supp like a campaign setting?




I would.


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## SPECTRE666

slwoyach said:


> I would.



Same here.


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## Sanglorian

There's been some talk on RPGnet of whether it's possible to sell a physical copy of an RPG for US$2.99 or less. I think E6 would be a good candidate for such a project! 

Each player buys a race-and-class booklet for $2.99 and the DM buys the DM's guide for $2.99. The player booklets allow you to play, say, a gnome druid or an elven bard -- but you can also use the race from one booklet with the class from another. 

The DM's guide would be pared down to only the necessary rules, as well as a brief starting adventure.


----------



## joela

*E20*

Huh. For those who find 21st level and higher too "superheroic"....


----------



## jmucchiello

Ryan Stou'n said:


> I actually would re-boot the thread again, maybe in a different subforum.
> 
> But I'd want to do a rewrite of the E6 .pdf first, and before I could do that I'd want to be sure that I could get good layout for it.



What kind of layout do you need? Are you talking about something bigger than the 20 pages at the front of thread?


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## Ry

I actually have talked to Jason Dettman who did the layout on the first one.  I'm planning on doing a rewrite of that pdf somewhere in the next few months.


----------



## jmucchiello

Ryan Stou'n said:


> I actually have talked to Jason Dettman who did the layout on the first one.  I'm planning on doing a rewrite of that pdf somewhere in the next few months.




Are you aware of the OGL problems with the 0.4.1 PDF? 
* It references Kord on page 5. I'm not aware of an OGC version of Aspect of Kord
* It refers directly to Unearthed Arcana in the FAQ. I'm pretty sure that is a trademarked name. And making reference to compatibility with a trademarked name is forbidden.
* The FAQ also references the point buy rules in the DMG. They are not OGC either.


----------



## Ry

Thanks! 

Those are excellent catches, I will make sure they are removed in the next version.


----------



## Ry

Oh, also, all this copyright stuff reminded me that it was time to release the new E6 Compatibility Logo!  

The Compatibility Logo will be available to all potential publishers so they can indicate that they take E6 and copyright issues very seriously. 

Here it is!


----------



## jmucchiello

Ryan Stou'n said:


> Oh, also, all this copyright stuff reminded me that it was time to release the new E6 Compatibility Logo!



Can I assume (correctly) from this that the new version of E6 will be a "complete" RPG with pages about classes and races and skills and combat and ... I'm betting you can keep char gen minus feats to 32 pages easily. Magic could easily be under 32 pages. The hard part would be reducing combat and skills since E6 leaves them unmodified.


----------



## joela

jmucchiello said:


> Can I assume (correctly) from this that the new version of E6 will be a "complete" RPG with pages about classes and races and skills and combat and ... I'm betting you can keep char gen minus feats to 32 pages easily. Magic could easily be under 32 pages. The hard part would be reducing combat and skills since E6 leaves them unmodified.




Don't forget magic items, traps, poisons, and -- of course -- monsters! to make the "complete" rpg.


----------



## Scurvy_Platypus

Just as a general note...

There has been on-going work to modify the SRD to be "E6" compliant. I haven't followed it especially because I set my cap higher, so it's of no real use to me. You can find it here:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-le...tem-reference-document-community-project.html

The last post to the thread (#281) has a zip of the files that they did work on; it should provide a solid foundation for what people are after, once you've doublechecked the assumptions/decisions made by the folks in the first place.


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## jmucchiello

joela said:


> Don't forget magic items, traps, poisons, and -- of course -- monsters! to make the "complete" rpg.




I'm always fascinated by the "how small can an RPG go" threads. With teeny fonts I've gotten some big SRD sections down to very few pages. Someone mentioned the $2.99 per component idea here and I was intrigued again.


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## kevin_video

I've mentioned this before, but during my E6 game, I've allowed certain Epic feats to be taken as capstone feats. Mostly because they don't great the game at all. For example, Combat Archery, which allows someone to fire a bow without provoking an AoO. The ranger/sorcerer/wizard 1 spell Arrow Mind does that as a swift action for a number of minutes, and there are feats that either add to your AC vs AoO with a bow, or don't provoke an AoO if it's an exotic ranged weapon. So it only makes sense to do that.

While going through the feats, I came up with a capstone feat of my own. It's a variant on an epic feat.

*Energy Resistance* [Capstone]

*Benefit*
Choose a type of energy (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic). You gain resistance 2 to that type of energy, or your existing resistance to that type of energy increases by one category: 2, 5, 10, 20. This feat does not stack with energy resistance granted by magic items or nonpermanent magical effects.

You can gain this feat multiple times.


----------



## Hip Uncle Z

Been running a steampunk world for about 3 years now. Switched to PFRPG 2 years ago; and after reading the e6 document; really want to give this a shot.

I have a few questions.

*1.)* I didn't see HP mentioned once, so I assume that it stops increasing as well.

-How does playing without increasing Hitpoints *feel* to you players? 

-What about you DMs?

*2.)* Is it a much higher casualty rate when you hit CR10 encounters?

*3.)* Can anyone recommend some expanded spell selections to use specifically with e6? I already have everything from Rite Publishing and Necromancers of The Northwest.


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## kevin_video

It's not like you don't ever get more hit points. You just get more feats that you can use to increase your Con modifier and Toughness. That's definitely going to help. But no, no more HD.

If you're facing a CR 10 encounter then you've got "epic" characters with like 15 extra feats before they're going in so they're the equivalent to an 8th or 9th level party. Yeah the damage is higher, but the survivability is still there. Like they said in the write up, this makes dragons fearsome again. Makes the PCs think outside the box.

You could always give mages capstone feats that allow them to learn a 4th level spell. I know a DM that did that for his E6 group. It was basically the same as the epic feat Improved Spell Capacity.


----------



## Antariuk

Hip Uncle Z said:


> *1.)* I didn't see HP mentioned once, so I assume that it stops increasing as well.
> 
> -How does playing without increasing Hitpoints *feel* to you players?
> 
> -What about you DMs?




Like kevin_video said, there is always the Toughnes feat, giving any 6th level character 6 hp. If you still have a bad feeling about this, E8 might be an alternative for your game.

As for the feeling, I can only speak from a GM's perspective. First, its a weird thing, and you need to get used to the fact that a large portion of the Bestiaiy can kill your players easily. But after it sinks in, you realize how much this can improve the game. After one or two tough fights, your players will realize that they can't affort to charge into any dungeon they find like brainless maniacs. They need a solid strategy, they need preparation, and above all, caution. They will start to take the world around them more serious. If your players are anything like mine, they might also surprise your with a display of cunning and cruelty you never saw before. Survival can be a strong motivator 

This doesn't mean that I am f***ing around with my players or constantly putting them in danger of being killed. I run a fair game, where there are always several ways to approach a problem. I just made it clear that I won't cheat, and that there might be villains they cannot beat without preparing accordingly for the job.



Hip Uncle Z said:


> *2.)* Is it a much higher casualty rate when you hit CR10 encounters?




I'd say that really depends on your player's knowledge of the rules, and how their characters are built. If they are accustomed to "normal" Pathfinder games, it may cost them a character or two before they attune to E6's reality. Do the character complement each other during combat? Are all players aware of the fact that the game works outside the standard mechanics for level-appropriate encounters, and therefore running also is an option to end a fight?



Hip Uncle Z said:


> *3.)* Can anyone recommend some expanded spell selections to use specifically with e6? I already have everything from Rite Publishing and Necromancers of The Northwest.




I'm familiar with one or two Rite Publishing materials, their 101 spells series might be all you ever need. Personally, I am using an assortment of extra spells from the D&D 3.5 Complete series, Eberron supplements (we are playing an Eberron game), and some spells from various d20 supplements I found interesting. However, be careful with the amount of extra spells in the game, as you might end up creating some of the very problems E6 tried to avoid in the first place.


----------



## Hip Uncle Z

Antariuk said:


> However, be careful with the amount of extra spells in the game, as you might end up creating some of the very problems E6 tried to avoid in the first place.




Yes! I thought about this while reading the PDF last night then said "Hell, the 101 spells are enough".

I will throw some technology school spells in, as this is a Steampunk game. But my gamers all seem excited to enter a tough as nails game; that feels more real and severe than what they're used to. My gamers have told me they come for the story, but maybe now they'll appreciate the combat better!


----------



## kevin_video

If you're doing technology based stuff, look at the Iron Kingdoms books for spells too. Maybe even a few monsters from their Monsternomicons.


----------



## Antariuk

Hip Uncle Z said:


> My gamers have told me they come for the story, but maybe now they'll appreciate the combat better!




The way I see it, this is a huge accomplishment! D&D or Pathfinder are not the best storytelling systems to begin with, so if your players already see the story as a primary incentive, you're doing just fine


----------



## LordUrban

I was wondering if anyone had worked on including prestige classes in E6? For the most part I've found that you need to hit 7 before you can think about taking one. Are there any feats that would allow for the reproduction of prestige classes?


----------



## Gilladian

I've been running an E6 game now for just about a year and a half... and my PCs are just now about to become 5th and 6th level (2 at 5th and 2 at 6th). So we're just really "seeing" the differences that E6 will make in the overall campaign.

I have noticed that as I run the dungeon (Dragon's Delve over at dungeonaday.com) I am beginning to see a real difference in the way things are working. I'm having to modify the foes they meet into E6 versions; the NPCs are all 6-8th level now (the evil Venom Cult of clerics and assassins in the lvl 6 area of the dungeon) and would be starting to use Lvl 4 spells against them. 

Instead, I'm giving them more feats, and adding a few extra lower-level "cannon-fodder" foes to give the "bigger" foes a cushion, so they're not mobbed at once.

Already, the rule change has affected the way I run my campaign world, and the concepts that effect the psyche of the NPCs. There's no raise dead unless a whole group of priests is all willing to work together to do it, so only royalty or high ranking clergy are ever LIKELY to be raised. 

I HAVE been allowing spells from many sources - all the player's options books, Spell Compendium, etc... but do not have the Rite Publishing resources. Hmmm...

I think reworking prestige classes into base classes is the way I'm going. I was never one for LOTS of multiclassing, nor are my players, but sometimes they look! Again, I allow PH II classes and a few others, but they haven't tried them. 

Or rework prestige classes into a SINGLE level that can be taken as the 6th level selection, optionally. A "capstone" level, as it were. Give each class say 3 options, and you can introduce a lot of variety.


----------



## S'mon

I've decided with my Pathfinder Beginner Box Yggsburgh campaign to make it E10 rather than E5. E10 I think fits closest to the level demographics of old-school rulesets such as 1e AD&D or B/X D&D, and allows for all the iconic D&D spells (I guess you could argue 6th level Disintegrate or Death Spell were somewhat iconic, but not like Teleport or Raise Dead). Yggsburgh is a Gygaxian setting so Wizards should be powerful; this makes it less suitable for E5 or E6 play. But I definitely don't want to be dealing with the horrors of double-digit 3e play, and I doubt PF really fixed it, so E10 seems like the best approach.


----------



## S'mon

[MENTION=2093]Gilladian[/MENTION] - I've already been running my Pathfinder BB Yggsburgh game since February.  Currently with attrition the three regular PCs are 4th, 2nd & 2nd, the 4th level guy is getting close to the BB's 5th level cap, hence my deciding whether to stick with my initial E5 idea or go to E10. There will be one more game then a planned hiatus to January. When it resumes it will be at most fortnightly, with 3 hour sessions. A year from now I expect it's possible, but definitely not certain, that one or more PCs might have reached the E10 cap, in which case I will be able to report back on how E10 works in play.  If the campaign goes long term then I expect in a couple years I will definitely have seen some E10 play, and I'll be sure to report in here around August 2014 . My expectation is that it should run a lot like the traditional OD&D 'Endgame', with dominion rulership & politics as increasingly large features.


----------



## Gilladian

Sounds like a plan! I look forward to hearing about it. 

I'll certainly comment here about how the players enjoy E6 once they've been 6th level for a while.


----------



## DireWereTeddy

LordUrban said:


> I was wondering if anyone had worked on including prestige classes in E6? For the most part I've found that you need to hit 7 before you can think about taking one. Are there any feats that would allow for the reproduction of prestige classes?




Something I've considered doing with prestige classes, is lowering the entry requirements, making them a little more generic, and running them like advanced classes from d20 Modern. Most of those where 3rd or 4th level entry.

My thoughts were make the classes generic so that they represent more of an archetype or role than the usually more specific prestige classes.  d20 Modern had things like Soldier, Martial Artist, Field Scientist, and Celebrity as advanced classes. Give the class two or three levels, and then provide feats that mimic the remaining class abilities, within reason.

Something like that should work for prestige classes. I'd probably limit the class to one level (most can't be entered until 6 at the earlier anyways), and then feats to mimic the specific class abilities, but for some of the generic prcs there's no reason you can't treat them like advanced classes or even base classes (Duellist...I'm looking at you).


----------



## Madstone

PoeticJustice said:


> I'm currently running an E6 game.
> My players said it sounded like a fun variant, and I was intrigued with the idea.
> 
> Despite that, there have been a few snags. Spells of level 4 or higher are sorely missed, and I do pine to make use of the hundreds of prestige classes I've accumulated.
> 
> Also, the DM first needs to decide exactly how hard it is for an NPC to get to level 6. In my campaign, it's a little like WoW: getting there is hard, but enough make it, and once you do there's a lot of stuff that needs to be done.
> 
> We're currently at level 3. The campaign is going well, and I'm compiling a document with most of the good feats I want accessible to my players.



I am first time GM since 2nd edition.  I have been running a game every other week.  It took them a little over 8 months to get from first to 6th level where they are at now.  I have since gone to milestone level ups so they will not level up until they finish "Into Quabus."  After reading this, I will throw out the idea of trying this E6 idea to see how it plays out.  My game is a back up game for our normal group.  My game allows all type of content before allowing new content into my friend's main game.  The main game players have been playing together for 15+ years.


----------



## Rune

Madstone said:


> I am first time GM since 2nd edition.  I have been running a game every other week.  It took them a little over 8 months to get from first to 6th level where they are at now.  I have since gone to milestone level ups so they will not level up until they finish "Into Quabus."  After reading this, I will throw out the idea of trying this E6 idea to see how it plays out.  My game is a back up game for our normal group.  My game allows all type of content before allowing new content into my friend's main game.  The main game players have been playing together for 15+ years.



I’d be very curious to know how it works out in 2e. Especially considering 2e doesn’t have feats. (Or maybe Skills & Powers had something like feats? I don’t remember.)

Edit: I believe I misread you. You aren’t _currently_ running 2e, I presume. I’d still be interested to know if E6 could be done in 2e, though.


----------



## kevin_video

Madstone said:


> I am first time GM since 2nd edition.  I have been running a game every other week.  It took them a little over 8 months to get from first to 6th level where they are at now.  I have since gone to milestone level ups so they will not level up until they finish "Into Quabus."  After reading this, I will throw out the idea of trying this E6 idea to see how it plays out.  My game is a back up game for our normal group.  My game allows all type of content before allowing new content into my friend's main game.  The main game players have been playing together for 15+ years.



Experience over milestone once everyone is level 6 is almost mandatory. Knowing when you hit 5000 xp so the players can take a feat, and every three feats is another equivalent level. It's like not like a standard game where you just get a level once you hit a certain story progression, once you get to that point. Just something to be wary on.


----------



## Cadence

kevin_video said:


> Experience over milestone once everyone is level 6 is almost mandatory. Knowing when you hit 5000 xp so the players can take a feat, and every three feats is another equivalent level. It's like not like a standard game where you just get a level once you hit a certain story progression, once you get to that point. Just something to be wary on.



Why doesn't milestone work?


----------



## Rune

kevin_video said:


> Experience over milestone once everyone is level 6 is almost mandatory. Knowing when you hit 5000 xp so the players can take a feat, and every three feats is another equivalent level. It's like not like a standard game where you just get a level once you hit a certain story progression, once you get to that point. Just something to be wary on.



I guess that depends on the form milestones take. Should work fine if you base them on the completion a predetermined number of major or minor missions (especially those set by the party), rather than at specific points of a “story.”

Similarly, gaining a feat after a set number of sessions played should work fine, as well. Assuming a regular schedule for play, at least.


----------



## kevin_video

Cadence said:


> Why doesn't milestone work?



I haven't heard of anyone successfully pulling it off where they didn't just up and abandon it because they weren't able to adjust the milestone to be 1/3 of the story instead of a specific point. I suppose if a GM really wanted to, that person could keep standard milestone leveling and just hand out three feats all at once, but that seems a bit much.


----------



## kevin_video

Rune said:


> I guess that depends on the form milestones take. Should work fine if you base them on the completion a predetermined number of major or minor missions (especially those set by the party), rather than at specific points of a “story.”
> 
> Similarly, gaining a feat after a set number of sessions played should work fine, as well. Assuming a regular schedule for play, at least.



Regular schedule is likely a larger part of it. GMs in the past have noted that it was just easier to do XP. 3.5 in general does XP spread very well, and in E6, even if you get an abundance of XP, you're not suddenly uber powerful. Those three feats might just be Skill Focus, Toughness, and Weapon Focus. Not exactly game breaking compared to earning a 9th level spell when you're still getting used to PCs who only have 7th level spells.

It's likely a YMMV factor, and it's probable it might work, but the success stories for E6 milestones don't seem to be shared nearly as much as the "Fail! Went back to XP." But, again, it might be an irregular schedule could be a contributing factor.


----------



## Man in the Funny Hat

Rune said:


> I’d still be interested to know if E6 could be done in 2e, though.



I took a good long look at replicating E6 in 1E.  Doing it for 2E would be about the same.  Problem is that 3E is structured differently and helps tremendously to make E6 actually work.  PC's stop advancing at 6th level but get regular improvements in the form of feats, while their skills improvement basically halts.  There are almost no other changes that need to be made to the rest of the 3E rules.  That just doesn't hold true for 1E/2E.  For starters the xp table is different for every class and there isn't a single level that makes a good stopping point for all of them.  Beyond that, there isn't anything like feats in 1E/2E to continue to reward PC's with.  Closest you could get would be NWP points but they make a poor substitute and I felt they'd start to imbalance the game in ways that feats wouldn't.

What I DID do was to come up with a variation for 1E where all PC's cease advancing entirely at a total of 700,001 xp.  That puts different classes at different levels but makes a good stopping point nonetheless as the PC's are fairly comparable at that point despite the level differences.  I then made some tweaks to the classes to better fit the fact that PC's would stop advancing altogether.  Essentially something like the "capstone" feats that E6 set up.  And I wanted to address how the level cap affected the casting ability for rangers and paladins.  The really important part, however, was to pick a point where the major spellcasting PC's would cease getting higher level spells.  That was a HUGE factor in making E6 work was in limiting spells to 3rd level.  I eventually decided that once any spellcasting class was able to cast a 5th level spell their spellcasting ability would cease. That still left a few key spells wanting/needing to be backdoored in - reincarnation for druids, stone to flesh, and restoration.  I left open the possibility to have a few other SELECT high-level magics used on a highly limited basis, but for the most part that felt to me like it cut out the worst of the high-level spell imbalance.

One of the other easily overlooked factors is that in 1E/2E, demihumans were able to multiclass but at the cost of being level-limited.  That didn't work well in 1E/2E because of the fact that unlike the days when 1E was new, nowadays most players would not retire a PC at "title/name level".  That left a severe imbalance between human and demi-human PC's.  But, with an xp cap of 700,001xp that stops even humans at or immediately after "title/name level" and actually makes the demi-human level limits FIT and generally make better sense.

Last thing to mention is that I wanted the 1E Players Handbook to otherwise still be accurate and reliable for the players use - they wouldn't need a massive set of house rules.  With all the changes I made (including a much shorter, clearer initiative system) it was only about 20 pages of rules to make it work.  I almost think that for 1E/2E it's just the IDEA that PC advancement can't continue forever, and that there is a significant limit placed on the power of spells that is the most important part of the concept.  It really colors how you look at the game in the long-term, even if the level cap is more like 10th-12th than 6th.

It's at:








						1E Fixed Advancement AD&D (current doc).odt
					

Shared with Dropbox




					www.dropbox.com
				



if you're interested.  And obviously, anybody will want to tweak what THEY want to tweak about it.  That link is simply where my thinking and my preferences led me.


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## NotZenon

Man in the Funny Hat said:


> I took a good long look at replicating E6 in 1E.  Doing it for 2E would be about the same.  Problem is that 3E is structured differently and helps tremendously to make E6 actually work.  PC's stop advancing at 6th level but get regular improvements in the form of feats, while their skills improvement basically halts.  There are almost no other changes that need to be made to the rest of the 3E rules.  That just doesn't hold true for 1E/2E.  For starters the xp table is different for every class and there isn't a single level that makes a good stopping point for all of them.  Beyond that, there isn't anything like feats in 1E/2E to continue to reward PC's with.  Closest you could get would be NWP points but they make a poor substitute and I felt they'd start to imbalance the game in ways that feats wouldn't.
> 
> What I DID do was to come up with a variation for 1E where all PC's cease advancing entirely at a total of 700,001 xp.  That puts different classes at different levels but makes a good stopping point nonetheless as the PC's are fairly comparable at that point despite the level differences.  I then made some tweaks to the classes to better fit the fact that PC's would stop advancing altogether.  Essentially something like the "capstone" feats that E6 set up.  And I wanted to address how the level cap affected the casting ability for rangers and paladins.  The really important part, however, was to pick a point where the major spellcasting PC's would cease getting higher level spells.  That was a HUGE factor in making E6 work was in limiting spells to 3rd level.  I eventually decided that once any spellcasting class was able to cast a 5th level spell their spellcasting ability would cease. That still left a few key spells wanting/needing to be backdoored in - reincarnation for druids, stone to flesh, and restoration.  I left open the possibility to have a few other SELECT high-level magics used on a highly limited basis, but for the most part that felt to me like it cut out the worst of the high-level spell imbalance.
> 
> One of the other easily overlooked factors is that in 1E/2E, demihumans were able to multiclass but at the cost of being level-limited.  That didn't work well in 1E/2E because of the fact that unlike the days when 1E was new, nowadays most players would not retire a PC at "title/name level".  That left a severe imbalance between human and demi-human PC's.  But, with an xp cap of 700,001xp that stops even humans at or immediately after "title/name level" and actually makes the demi-human level limits FIT and generally make better sense.
> 
> Last thing to mention is that I wanted the 1E Players Handbook to otherwise still be accurate and reliable for the players use - they wouldn't need a massive set of house rules.  With all the changes I made (including a much shorter, clearer initiative system) it was only about 20 pages of rules to make it work.  I almost think that for 1E/2E it's just the IDEA that PC advancement can't continue forever, and that there is a significant limit placed on the power of spells that is the most important part of the concept.  It really colors how you look at the game in the long-term, even if the level cap is more like 10th-12th than 6th.
> 
> It's at:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1E Fixed Advancement AD&D (current doc).odt
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if you're interested.  And obviously, anybody will want to tweak what THEY want to tweak about it.  That link is simply where my thinking and my preferences led me.



Cool I did a similar thing with second edition except capping  characters at level nine.  It worked fine mostly.  I tried the xp cap at 300,000 but it didn’t quite work as the Druid xp table is kind of… odd. My solution was either a hard cap at level nine or making Druids use the cleric xp table.

Second edition does kind of have a natural cap around level 9 / 10 when players stop gaining HD etc, and really extending that to include spells and thaco wasn’t  really game breaking.  Although allowing the wizards and clerics to cast higher level spells as one off rituals with a bunch of time and money spent on research was a welcomed addition.


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## NotZenon

I should also note I had some weird system where characters could spend XP to gain NWP/WP and thieves/bards could continue to improve thief skills - it was probably overly complicated. And looking back I think bards/thieves were capped at level 10.  Basically once you stopped gaining HD you were capped.


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