# Song of Ice & Fire Discussion:What do you want in the next 3 books? (SPOILERS)



## AuroraGyps (Jul 13, 2004)

So, I finally read the first three books in this series and I thought they were so great.  Tyrion is my favorite character, the books have evil characters that I really hate, and the cliffhanger-like chapters drove me crazy in a good way.   I can't wait for the next book, which is delayed until the end of the year, and I can't help but keep wondering what's gonna happen next.  Like, where is Arya's wolf?  She must still be alive, since Arya keeps "dreaming" about her.  And what about Hodor?  I can't help but think and hope there might be more to him than just being a simple minded, gentle giant.


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## Sirius_Black (Jul 13, 2004)

House Frey being destroyed is a good start for what I'd like to see somewhere within the next three novels.


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 13, 2004)

I want to see Stannis Baratheon and (the newly uplifted) John _Stark_ crush the bastard of Bolton, reunite the north and march on The Freys


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## Pants (Jul 13, 2004)

AuroraGyps said:
			
		

> And what about Hodor?  I can't help but think and hope there might be more to him than just being a simple minded, gentle giant.



Well, Old Nan said that Hodor's real name was 'Walder,' so take that as you will 

Things I really want to see happen:
- Tyrion meeting Dany
- Cersei making House Lannister sink further and further into the sinkhole with her idiocy
- The Identity of Coldhands revealed.  Who the hell is he?!
- The massacre of the Freys.  Red Wedding my foot...
- Sansa becoming less of a ditz.


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## AuroraGyps (Jul 13, 2004)

> Well, Old Nan said that Hodor's real name was 'Walder,' so take that as you will




Oh yeah.  Ok, the entire Frey clan is killed and it turns out Hodor is a Frey, & now the only Frey, and inherits the Twins.  HODOR!!!  

Jaime and Brianne become a couple... he needs a good sword arm and she kicks butt.

As for Coldhand... could it be Uncle Benjen?


I'd also like to see Catelyn make up for all her mistakes:
"Ned, you should go be the Hand"
"Sansa should marry Joffrey"
"I think I'll take Tyrion hostage"
"Robb, you need the Freys"

She had a big hand in so many things that went that went really bad.


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## stevelabny (Jul 13, 2004)

i wanna see that bastard Jon Stark get whats coming to him, just like his dad. To see his head roll across a grassy field will be sweet. 

I have utmost faith that although most believe he is the "hero" of these books, he really is just a schmuck who knows nothing and will die unmourned and unloved :-D

I'd like to see Sandor retain his Boba Fett-like coolness and not become just a marketing gimmick like Fett himself.

And I'd like to see more of of Asha. A lot more of Asha. I wouldnt even mind her and her brother becoming the next incestuous rulers of Westeros.

But basically, as long as the dialogue stays intense, the multiple POVs make people reconsider their ill-conceived opinions on characters (see Jaime),  and the plot stays twisty (and doesnt just become, secret-targaryen jon snow and his sister dany unite westeros as one and everyone lives happily ever after)  then ill be happy


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## Celtavian (Jul 13, 2004)

*re*

The Frey's dead. I hate the Frey clan.

Bolton's Bastard must be killed as well.

I hope there are some new players. I don't know that I want to see any of the current players take the Dragon throne. I figure Dany will take it, but I would rather not see her do so. Dany is just too much Martin's little fantasy girl for me to like, or that is how I feel when I read her story.

I don't like Jon, nor any of the other Stark kids save for perhaps Bran. I feel sympathetic for Sansa, though I can't say that I like her. I can't stand Arya, she is annoying and unbelievable as a character. They haven't shown enough of the youngest Stark boy...what's his name...to have a feel for him. I'm hoping he turns into some heroic fighter that I can get behind.

I'd like to see more of Barristan Selmy. I like the old archetypal knight.

It should be interesting to see Cersei's perspective, though I hope she dies. 

It would be nice to see Jaime continue his path towards redemption. He would make a great hero. I like the character. I can identify with Jaime Lannister. After reading his perspective, he actually seems more like a true knight than many of the others in the book with the notable exception of Barristan Selmy. 

I don't know where Tyrion will end up, but he is a fun character. Hopefully Martin has found something interesting for Tyrion to do.

The Knight of Flowers hopefully doesn't fall into evil while serving in the King's guard. I like the Knight of Flowers, more of his deeds would be nice.

Sandor Clegane needs to live. I like The Hound. I would like to see him survive and kill his undead brother Gregor (I do think Gregor will probably return as some undead monstrosity).

The main reason I read _A Song of Ice and Fire_ is to enjoy a good story. I just hope Martin continues to tell a good story that keeps me interested in the characters and events.


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## CrusaderX (Jul 13, 2004)

There was some speculation that HodOR is related to SandOR and GregOR, since their names are alike and they're all freakishly huge.

I like both Jon and Dany, and I'd love to see them unite and live happily ever after, but I seriously doubt if Martin is going to go that route.  I'm actually betting that one of them will die in the next book.

I love Arya as well.  I want to see her become an effective fighter or maybe even an assassin, and knock off a few more names on her "prayer list".  And I want her to get her wolf back, too.

I hope Jaqen H'ghar returns.  Forget Sandor, Jaqen is the true Boba Fett of the series.  

I want to see undead Cat lay the smackdown on Cersei.  Cersei will freak out.  It would be great!

I can see Sansa becoming a villian, and if so an Arya and Sansa reunion would be fun to read.


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## KenM (Jul 13, 2004)

I can see Cersi getting killed and Sansa, with everything she went through, becoming like her. 
I want the Imp to be king.  
I see Jon uniting the freepeople beyond the wall and the other people of Westros, to fight against the undead.


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## RaceBannon42 (Jul 13, 2004)

I just want to see the next book!

Actually I would like to see Arya wipe more names off her list, to see the Bastard and the Frey get theirs, and to Cersei  put in her place.


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## DanMcS (Jul 13, 2004)

Jaime Lannister and Sandor Clegane are villains, no matter how much Martin tried to make them sympathetic through the course of the books.  They need to pay for their crimes.


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## nikolai (Jul 13, 2004)

I want to see what has happened to Benjen Stark - this has been a loose end for two and a half books! It has to be resolved soon.
 I want to see more of Theon Greyjoy. The last we know he was dragged off to the Dreadfort and flayed. But he's the rightful King of the Ironborn, and a cool character, we have to see him again soon.
 I want to see Stannis' doom get closer. I like the guy, but he's playing with shadowmagic, setting himself up in the Nightfort, it's not going to be pretty.
 I want to see Dany turn out to be the baddy. I don't think GRRM is going to go down the route of her being the hero.


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## Berandor (Jul 13, 2004)

I want to see them finished before I die of old age.

As for the rest, I have trust in GRRM to make the story better than I could imagine or want. Maybe Arya will be the BBEG, maybe Sansa, maybe Jon - all I care is that it is told well, and that in the end, there will be some sense of closure.


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## nikolai (Jul 13, 2004)

Berandor said:
			
		

> I want to see them finished before I die of old age.




I want to see them finished before he dies of old age.


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## The_Universe (Jul 13, 2004)

I just want to see the series *end.* Long stories are great, but I want them to come to a satisfying conclusion, at some point.  I don't want this series to suffer from Wheel of Time Syndrome!


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## KenM (Jul 13, 2004)

IMO the reason this middle book is taking so long is because it orginally was not planned.


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## nikolai (Jul 13, 2004)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> I just want to see the series *end.* Long stories are great, but I want them to come to a satisfying conclusion, at some point.  I don't want this series to suffer from Wheel of Time Syndrome!




I don't think there will be any problem there. The series is longer than GRRM originally expected it to be. But he's making sure there are plot arcs across each book, as well as across the whole series. There are plenty of terribly long and artifically drawn out fantasy series. I don't think ASOIAF is going to end up one of them though.


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## Sarigar (Jul 13, 2004)

I want to continue to see at least 5-8 storylines per book all the way to the end.  This is one of GRRM's little triumphs in this series.


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## Particle_Man (Jul 14, 2004)

I think it would be cool if Arya ended up backing the eastern queen wannabe in exchange for some revenge action.  Arya as a dragon rider would rock!  Arya meeting the fake Arya would be interesting...  

More on Tyrion, pretty please.  Maybe he could hook up with Brianne.  Brains and brawn, baby!



Spoiler



Was Cat undead? I thought she was just wounded and permanently mute.



And tons more on Jon Snow, and especially his close circle of friends.


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## nikolai (Jul 14, 2004)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Was Cat undead? I thought she was just wounded and permanently mute.




She's not undead (in the horror "walking corpse" sense). She has been brought back from the dead though (like Beric) so she's alive, but her injuries are still there.


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## CrusaderX (Jul 14, 2004)

nikolai said:
			
		

> She's not undead (in the horror "walking corpse" sense). She has been brought back from the dead though (like Beric) so she's alive, but her injuries are still there.




And she's losing her POV chapters.  So no, she's not really undead, but I can see her being portrayed in a really creepy way since we're no longer going to be getting inside her head.  We'll just be getting the reactions from other characters.


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## Dagger75 (Jul 14, 2004)

I like this topic.

 Theon Greyjoy-  I bet he's found alive in the Dreadfort in a cage with all his skin flayed off.

Hodor- I think Bran will take over his body and use him to be the "knight" he always dreamed of being.

 Sandor- He's dead

 Gregor-  Ohh he lives and is pretty pissed.

 Arya- Trains in Bravoos as an assassin and meets up with Tyrion.  Tries to kill him cause he's a Lannister. He talks to her, they join up and get into Dany's army when she goes to Bravoos.

 Jon SNOW- Does not take Stannis's offer and stays and leades the Night Watch.

 Jamie- Marries Brianna (sp).  He will end up killing Cerci and Gregor and die in the process.

 Catelyn- With the help of the Brotherhood without Banners kills the Freys one at a time.

 King Tomin will actually be a pretty good King.  He is loved by the people even though he is a little kid. Probably a teenager when Arya assassinates him.

 Dany and her army will take over at this time and defeat the others that have crossed the wall and rule beside Jon Snow. The General of her Army Tyrion and her personal bodygaurd Arya.  


 PS: I agree Jaqen H'ghar is Bobba Fett of the series.


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## Cor Azer (Jul 14, 2004)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> I like this topic.
> 
> Theon Greyjoy-  I bet he's found alive in the Dreadfort in a cage with all his skin flayed off.




A possibility... My opinion is that Martin wouldn't do something so... obvious?



			
				Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Hodor- I think Bran will take over his body and use him to be the "knight" he always dreamed of being.




I think Bran might use Hodor's body again, but I think Bran is too nice to continually force his mind upon Hodor.



			
				Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Sandor- He's dead




Hasn't been written yet... and even it had been, so was Catelyn. I could reasonably see the Brotherhood taking in Sandor (although I would suspect he'd leave them in short order).



			
				Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Gregor-  Ohh he lives and is pretty pissed.




Pissed, yes. Lives? Not so sure. The Cersei preview chapter seems to imply that Gregor is not in good shape. 



Spoiler



He drank milk of the poppy so often that it now can't lessen the pain of the enhanced and drawn out poison the Red Viper used on his spear.





			
				Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Arya- Trains in Bravoos as an assassin and meets up with Tyrion.  Tries to kill him cause he's a Lannister. He talks to her, they join up and get into Dany's army when she goes to Bravoos.




I don't see it happening. I see Martin hinting it might happen, but I don't see it happening. I don't really dislike Arya's character, but I wonder how interesting it could be if Martin had her fail in her training to become an assassin (as many think she'll become).



			
				Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Jon SNOW- Does not take Stannis's offer and stays and leades the Night Watch.




I think that's a given... although it remains to be seen how well the Night's Watch remains...

I think Stannis will abandon trying to convince Jon, and go for 



Spoiler



Maege Mormont, who supposedly finds Rickon Stark and tries to use him for her bid at the North.





			
				Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Jamie- Marries Brianna (sp).  He will end up killing Cerci and Gregor and die in the process.




I doubt it. He's got a connection with Brienne sure, but I don't think he'll drop his Kingsguard vows again, and those include "Take no wife".



			
				Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Catelyn- With the help of the Brotherhood without Banners kills the Freys one at a time.




I hope so.



			
				Dagger75 said:
			
		

> King Tomin will actually be a pretty good King.  He is loved by the people even though he is a little kid. Probably a teenager when Arya assassinates him.




I don't think Tommen will be on the throne for very long... and I think with his young mind, he'll be confused with the Martells using his older sister Myrcella in their bid for the throne.



			
				Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Dany and her army will take over at this time and defeat the others that have crossed the wall and rule beside Jon Snow. The General of her Army Tyrion and her personal bodygaurd Arya.




I don't think so. I suspect Dany will cross over around Dragonstone. Her hatred of Robert Baratheon and his fellow usurpers will cause her to let the Others swarm through most of the North (traditional home of the Starks - big supporters of Robert). If at all, her forces will meet the Others south of the Neck (around the Trident perhaps). Some nice parallels to Rhaegar might be drawn.


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## ASH (Jul 14, 2004)

Well, let me start by saying that I have total faith in Martin. I think that he will end the books exactly like he should. THat said, i dont try to look for something to be in the next books because i really love them and would hate to be dissapointed. But I will say that I think that Jon is the 'hero' and I like him a great deal. I think that Dany is also a heroic character, and on the side of 'good', but that I cant stand reading her chapters. She reminds me of a Robert Jordan character. 

I am looking for Rickkon to come back in to the books as an older child, we left him in the hands of a wildling, and his ferocious shaggy dog. He is on the way of becoming a very rabbid person. 

The concept that Cerci will be defeated by Sansa, then sansa becomeing just like her is really a great one. That would be a great twist to the books.  

I love Arya, her and the imp are by far my favorite characters, and I look for them to continue to be so. I am interested in what Catlyn is going to be doing, but I think i would have prefered it had she stayed dead. 

I liked Jaq'un Hagar..I think that he is Syrios Fel, thats how he knew who Arya was, and why he was so inclined to give her the coin, and I think that we may find that out in the next few books as Arya goes through her training.

Bran, everything that happens to him is going to be awesome. His story line is so full of intersting concepts and finding more about the world of Westros that I cant help but love it. Who is cold hands...Benjen??

Jojen and Meera.. I think that we will see jojen die in the next few books, and Meera and Bran start up some sort of love intrest..

Thats about all for now.


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## Alaric_Prympax (Jul 14, 2004)

Well Martin breaks all traditions and is hard to predict but here goes...

Tyrion will meet up with Dany and will design the saddles which will be used to ride the dragons.  The saddle for Bran and Dancer was just too much foreshadowing not to use several books later.

Tyrion (Viserion), Jon (Rhaegal) and Dany (Drogon) will be the 3 dragon riders.  Martin has already said that not all three dragon riders have to be Targaryen.  Though the "Winged Wolf" image of Bran does have me thinking that I might be wrong but if one of the dragon riders is killed in battle Bran could warg into that dragon and thus fulfill the image of a "Winged Wolf".  I know that a lot of people don't think that Jon needs another pet since he has two (Ghost and the raven) but I believe he's a rider.  Tyrion's saying that even a dwarf can look down upon the world from the back of a flying dragon or something like that- once again foreshadowing.

Arya will be a Faceless (Wo)Man.  They will be hired by someone who wants to hurt Littlefinger and Arya will be sent by them to assassinate his daughter Alanye (Sansa).  That should be an interesting meeting/reunion.

Cersie will die by Jaime's "hand" when he tosses her out some window but she will grab his leg/ankle and bring him down and they will die like they were born- together her landing first but she will be holding him instead of him holding her.

Bran and Meera will hook up.

Rickon will be the wild Stark and wreak vengenence on all those that harmed his family with Shaggydog by his side.  And everyone will know that he is indeed Rickon Stark because how many Dire wolves are south of the Wall?  There are only 4 left and everyone knows where Ghost is.

Stannis will die fighting the Others.

I agree that Dany will fight the Others along the Trident fulfilling her vision of that battle.

The Freys will get their's and be replaced with the good Freys like Olyvar who was Rob's squire and wanted to stay with him but was not allowed.  He wasn't present at the Red Wedding, either imprisoned somewhere out of sight at the Twins or elsewhere so he wouldn't warn Rob.

Tyrion will in the end be Lord of Casterly Rock, Dany will make sure of that.  Tyrion btw is Martin's favorite character.

That's all for now.


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## ASH (Jul 14, 2004)

Alaric_Prympax said:
			
		

> Well Martin breaks all traditions and is hard to predict but here goes...
> 
> 
> 
> Tyrion (Viserion), Jon (Rhaegal) and Dany (Drogon) will be the 3 dragon riders.  Martin has already said that not all three dragon riders have to be Targaryen.  Though the "Winged Wolf" image of Bran does have me thinking that I might be wrong but if one of the dragon riders is killed in battle Bran could warg into that dragon and thus fulfill the image of a "Winged Wolf".  I know that a lot of people don't think that Jon needs another pet since he has two (Ghost and the raven) but I believe he's a rider.  Tyrion's saying that even a dwarf can look down upon the world from the back of a flying dragon or something like that- once again foreshadowing.




I forgot about this, and I pretty much agree with you on all of it!


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## CrusaderX (Jul 14, 2004)

Great thoughts, everyone.  I forgot about Meera, and I too hope that she survives and ends up with Bran.



			
				Alaric_Prympax said:
			
		

> Arya will be a Faceless (Wo)Man.  They will be hired by someone who wants to hurt Littlefinger and Arya will be sent by them to assassinate his daughter Alanye (Sansa).  That should be an interesting meeting/reunion.




Do you think that Littlefinger will continue the Alanye/Sansa ruse, though?   Now that Lysa is gone, I expect Littlefinger to proclaim Sansa as his bride, not his daughter.


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## KnowTheToe (Jul 14, 2004)

Just as long as Dany is not a hero and dies before it is all over.  I just don't like her character, or her chapters


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 15, 2004)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> ...More on Tyrion, pretty please.  Maybe he could hook up with Brianne.  Brains and brawn, baby!...




Well his old attempt at a pairng like that (Brains and Bronn?) wasn't exactly a smashing success for him.

I want to see more about Bronn, now that I think of it.


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## Alaric_Prympax (Jul 16, 2004)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> Do you think that Littlefinger will continue the Alanye/Sansa ruse, though?   Now that Lysa is gone, I expect Littlefinger to proclaim Sansa as his bride, not his daughter.




Actually yes I do because she is still suspected of helping Tyrion in Joff's murder so LF will want to keep her hidden until that is resolved.  Also there is supposed to be an "Alanye" chapter.  This should not be one of the 2 new viewpoints, Cersie being one of them, because Sansa and Alanye being the same person but by using Alanye instead of Sansa Martin may be hinting that Sansa is continuing to lose her identy of a Stark which began with Lady's death.  I read that on another message board that there is supposed to be a chapter with Alanye as the viewpoint, this may not be true though.  

But until the book is done and we have it in our hands who knows what will be in the book.  Even his prious readings of AFfC could no longer be "canon" because he might have changed something, but this speculation is fun and passes the time til it comes out.


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## Cor Azer (Jul 16, 2004)

Alaric_Prympax said:
			
		

> Bran and Meera will hook up.




My only problem with that is Bran is between 7-9 years old, whereas Meera is  mid-teens or older. The age difference may not mean much to older people, but the boy is hasn't even reached pre-teen status.

Oh yeah, and if Tyrion is Martin's favorite character, that almost assures that the Imp will be offed sometime soon. I can't recall where, but I'm pretty sure I've read that Martin is afraid of liking his characters too much, and if he does start having a favorite, he kills that character so that the stories don't focus on one person too much.


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## Mercule (Jul 16, 2004)

KnowTheToe said:
			
		

> Just as long as Dany is not a hero and dies before it is all over. I just don't like her character, or her chapters



Agreed.

I do like Jon, Arya, and Tyrion, though.


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## Viking Bastard (Jul 16, 2004)

To me, Arya seems to be his fav character.

 Her chapters just. Go. On. Foreeeeeeeeever!


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## drnuncheon (Jul 16, 2004)

Alaric_Prympax said:
			
		

> Tyrion (Viserion), Jon (Rhaegal) and Dany (Drogon) will be the 3 dragon riders. Martin has already said that not all three dragon riders have to be Targaryen.



 I've got a friend who is convinced that not only is Jon a Targaryen (as many people think), but Tyrion is one as well. If I remembered all of his evidence, I'd put it here, but there was some indication that one of  the Ts had  been sleeping with Tywin's wife, and the fact that Tyrion's mismatched eye was the right color for a Targaryen.

 He's thinking that Tyrion, Jon, and Dany wil be the riders and will kick the Others back up North where they belong.

 J


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## ssampier (Jul 16, 2004)

*Pure Speculation*

I love thread like this. I (like almost everyone) want the Freys to get their Comeuppance . I would rather see the Freys DECIMATED by the Others, rather than by dead-but-alive again Catelyn Stark. If her past mistakes were any indication, she's not all that wise.

I would like to see more of Bran's connection or ability to become his direwolf. I see Bran of the more "hero-type", he's just young right now. Jon character is likeable, but not really heroic. I'm not how to quantify that.

I would upset to see the dwarf die without his potential being reveal ("The giant of Lannister"). I'm indifferent to Arya, I don't dislike her, but she seems chaotic and vengeful, a perpective that I really don't identify with. Sansa is ignorant, hopefully she'll "wise up" to the workings of the world, sooner or later. Otherwise, off with her head. I believe that Littlefinger will marry her or just take advantage of her (hinted at by the kiss they shared in the snow).

Rickon I really don't care what happens to him. Sandor is not a "good guy", but I respect him. He could have killed Arya or left her to die and he did not. 
I would like to see what become of Arya sailing across the sea. My guess is she's toast.


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## Avouz (Jul 17, 2004)

I'm a bit surprised at all the Dany hatred here. She's my second favorite character (after Tyrion.) I'm also not fond of the younger Stark children (Bran and Rickon) while most folks here are.

Like most everyone else, I want bad things to happen to the Freys.

My suspicion as to where the stories will go from here is that GRRM will start to "clean up." He's got some 2-3 dozen major characters (and indepentent plot lines to go with them.) While it's impressive that he can maintain cohesion with that many, he's likely to start thinning things out, by killing off characters (more of the same) or creating new alliances (e.g. Tyrion-Dany, which is hinted at in the preview material for AFfC.) Now, granted, he's got three books to do it in, so I don't know how soon we'll start to see this.


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## CrusaderX (Jul 17, 2004)

The title of the next book, "A Feast for Crows", implies alot of death.  And for this series, that's a scary thought.

So who do you think Martin will kill next?  Maybe we should start a AFFC dead-pool.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Jul 17, 2004)

Avouz said:
			
		

> I'm a bit surprised at all the Dany hatred here. She's my second favorite character (after Tyrion.) I'm also not fond of the younger Stark children (Bran and Rickon) while most folks here are.




I rather like Dany, myself.  No one will ever accuse her of being smart, but she's beginning to learn how to think.  Plus, she hasn't done anything truly reprehensible to anyone who hasn't already deserved it.

I also really do like Sam.  He's cool.

I'll have to look around for the preview materials.  The only parts that I've seen were in Dragon and the preview in the back of ASoS, but it sounds like there's more floating around.

Brad


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## ssampier (Jul 18, 2004)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> I rather like Dany, myself.  No one will ever accuse her of being smart, but she's beginning to learn how to think.  Plus, she hasn't done anything truly reprehensible to anyone who hasn't already deserved it.
> 
> I also really do like Sam.  He's cool.
> ...




I almost forgot about him. Sam is a likable guy, more of a "everyman" than a hero. Plus I like I share the namesake, since many Sam characters are dunderheads (Samwise in LoTR has his moments thankfully).

I'm not too particularily fond of Dany. She's does has more going for her than her laughable, now deceased brother. From her PoV chapters, I always get the feeling that she's still young and ignorant of the world. Hopefully her story will improve. I'm sure of her exact motivation for "conquering the world", besides revenge and greed. Perhaps I missed something else. Hmm....


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## Particle_Man (Jul 18, 2004)

ssampier said:
			
		

> I'm sure of her exact motivation for "conquering the world", besides revenge and greed. Perhaps I missed something else. Hmm....




A sense of destiny?  She does have the blood of the dragon. That seems to lead to megalomania, for some reason (in-breeding?)  

While there are a lot of things I want to happen, I don't expect them all to happen in book 4.  After all, what would be left for the next 3 novels then?  So I actually expect book 4 to be more of a "training/holding pattern" for most of the major characters.  Thus The Mountain and/or the hound and some minor Freys might die, but I don't actually expect that much major character death.

But hey, here's hoping little Rickon gets old enough to have a viewpoint chapter of his very own.  

And I would also be interested in a viewpoint chapter of the mother of the infant Lord of Winterfell.  I mean, her husband got killed by Freys, and she has a kid that Cersei Lannister would likely want to see dead.  Gotta be something there...

Funny, I had expected The Hound to be a sort of "replacement wolf" for Sansa, but I guess that was too obvious so it never happened.  Or will it...?  

What else...oh yeah...I think that Cold Hands might turn out to be Jon Snow's mentor that he was forced to kill.  But I could be way off.


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 18, 2004)

Here are the folks I'd like to see with viewpoint chapters...


*Bronn*: Not going to happen. Best straight-up D&D fighter in the series 
*Sandor Clegane*: In a series of books of morally grey characters, he is the baseline grey reading
*Littlefinger*: The cleverest man in a series of books about the machinations of clever men.
*Robert Glover*: Whom I think holds Moat Cailin and is still loyal to Dead King Robb.


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## Berandor (Jul 19, 2004)

I am currently re-reading the series, and something came to my mind that I forgot:

I want Sansa to die a slow, agonizing death. I despise that character.


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## Olive (Jul 19, 2004)

It's interesting how some people hate characters that others adore.

I really like Jon Snow for example, but at least one person can't wait to see him die. I feel sorry for Sansa, but Berandor wants her dead too.

Ah well, thems the breaks.


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## ASH (Jul 19, 2004)

I cant wait for the Mointain's death, not because I hate him,  but because I think it will be awesomely written.

I dont mind Sansa, I hate, like just would like to have the character cut out of the books.... well, really no one. I think they all help make the story.. but I am less interested in what Dany is doing, much like the "new" catlyn...


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## Cor Azer (Jul 19, 2004)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Here are the folks I'd like to see with viewpoint chapters...
> 
> 
> *Bronn*: Not going to happen. Best straight-up D&D fighter in the series
> ...




Interesting list. I couldn't see Bronn getting a PoV chapter... he's too much of a "working for someone else character"... although, I guess it would be an interesting way to show what someone important is doing, by having Bronn at his side.

A Sandor PoV would be cool... but only after it's slowly hinted at whether he survived after Arya left him (which, I guess, he'd have to if he was getting PoV chapters).

I wouldn't want a Littlefinger PoV - the man is constantly scheming, and I don't think we readers should ever really know what he's thinking and planning.

Glover could be interesting. I never really gave his character much thought, but I figured the region you're guessing he'll cover I think is being covered by Maege Mormont.


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## Berandor (Jul 19, 2004)

Olive said:
			
		

> It's interesting how some people hate characters that others adore.
> 
> I really like Jon Snow for example, but at least one person can't wait to see him die. I feel sorry for Sansa, but Berandor wants her dead too.




That's why I loven this series so much. Martin gives us a lot of things to love, or to hate, a lot of great characters good/bad/mostly grey... but he doesn't tell us which is which! Most books clearly show one character as being the one to identify with, or the one to loath. Here you can sort of choose your own favorites and least favorites on your own. You can discuss, debate, even argue whether Jon Snow is a good or a bad guy for returning to the watch, you can despise Littlefinger or adore him, you can feel pity for Sansa or not, etc. 
And I still wouldn't rule out that Martin makes me reconsider my opinion of Sansa, although it's improbable. She just hasn't shown any ability to learn from her experience at all so far. But with Littlefinger's help, she might become the new Queen of Thorns, and I would *love* to see that, even more than I would like to see her beaten and killed for all the stupid, egoistical and dumb things she did and did not learn from


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## RaceBannon42 (Jul 19, 2004)

I'm actually afraid to  choose a favorite character, because Martin will then kill them off!  I liked Ned, and boom off with his head, I like Roibb and  thunk, pincusioned.  Jon is ok,Bran... eh I get tired of all the dreams, I like Tyrion to a degree, and I am starting to like Jamie.  I do like Arya. I cant stand Sansa, and Catelyn infuriates me. Lysa is on my crap list too, as is Littlefinger, although he is one of the guys you love to hate, kinda like Tywin. Oh and I don't like Dany, her chapters were always a good place to take a break.


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## KenM (Jul 19, 2004)

I kind of don't want to see Chersi POV chapters. It might make me like her better, and I don't want to like her. Every story needs "good" bad guys.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Jul 20, 2004)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> [*]*Littlefinger*: The cleverest man in a series of books about the machinations of clever men.




I'm 90% sure that Littlefinger will not live to see the end of the series.  Heck, I think he might wind up dead in a coup in the Eyrie by the end of book 4.  He's bit off more than he could chew, and it's going to cost him, and probably hurt Sansa.

You know, I kind of think Sansa might off Littlefinger.

Brad


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## ghettognome (Jul 20, 2004)

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> I've got a friend who is convinced that not only is Jon a Targaryen (as many people think), but Tyrion is one as well. If I remembered all of his evidence, I'd put it here, but there was some indication that one of  the Ts had  been sleeping with Tywin's wife, and the fact that Tyrion's mismatched eye was the right color for a Targaryen.
> 
> He's thinking that Tyrion, Jon, and Dany wil be the riders and will kick the Others back up North where they belong.
> 
> J



I believe that Jon is so much I am willing to bet on it. Eddard had too much honor no matter the circumstance to break that. I think he was protecting his sister because of the affair she had with the Targaryen, forgot which one, but is described in book 3) Her last words, and Ned's sternness of not talking aobut it, and Robert's hurt and anger about it. (though he thinks it was rape). I am almost positive that Jon was a result of Lyanna's affair. I think somehow that will come out and Jon and Dany will unite (maybe even in Targaryen incestral tradition).... 
I believe Tyrion will somehow become involved as well, he has too many wits about him not to.
I kind of hope Brienne comes back and her and Jamie have a moment, and I do believe he is redeeming himself, after his perspectives in the last book, I finally started to like him.
Arya is going to rock, I imagine she will reunite with her wolf and become a very good assasin like character.
Rickon will be a wild one, there is no doubt about that.
Bran does have so much potential, I can't even speculate on that one.
I would love to see Cat do Cersei in. I want to see that death more than anyone else at this point.


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## CrusaderX (Jul 20, 2004)

There's a nice little ASOIAF Faq that deals with issues such as Jon's true parents.  It's definitely worth checking out, but it does contain alot of spoilers for the series.

Though if you don't want spoilers, you really shouldn't be in this thread in the first place.


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## ssampier (Jul 20, 2004)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> I'm 90% sure that Littlefinger will not live to see the end of the series.  Heck, I think he might wind up dead in a coup in the Eyrie by the end of book 4.  He's bit off more than he could chew, and it's going to cost him, and probably hurt Sansa.
> 
> You know, I kind of think Sansa might off Littlefinger.
> 
> Brad




Littlefinger is an ambitious little man. Although I wouldn't mind seeing him dead, I like his machinations too much to hope for an early grave. 

Sansa is insipid, her head full of clouds and dreams. If Littlefinger does take advantage of her like I think he will, she may have cause to kill him. Succeeding is a different manner entirely, however. 

Was Littlefinger the unknown man with a forked beard talking about magics in _The Game of Thrones_? I can't find the reference, sorry. I'll have to read the book again.


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## Pants (Jul 20, 2004)

ssampier said:
			
		

> Was Littlefinger the unknown man with a forked beard talking about magics in _The Game of Thrones_? I can't find the reference, sorry. I'll have to read the book again.



In the scene where Arya gets lost hunting cats?  I believe those two are Varys and Illyrio. Although I can't remember where this proven, it's more likely just in the details of that scene.


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## CrusaderX (Jul 20, 2004)

ssampier said:
			
		

> Sansa is insipid, her head full of clouds and dreams.




I seriously doubt if Martin will keep her this way, though.




> Was Littlefinger the unknown man with a forked beard talking about magics in _The Game of Thrones_? I can't find the reference, sorry. I'll have to read the book again.




See the faq link I posted above.


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 21, 2004)

Cor Azer said:
			
		

> Interesting list. I couldn't see Bronn getting a PoV chapter... he's too much of a "working for someone else character"... although, I guess it would be an interesting way to show what someone important is doing, by having Bronn at his side.




Bronn has been elevated to "Sir Bronn" for his valor at King's Landing, and is marrying Lollys. He is a fully-fleged landed member of the gentry. Also he his Amoral and Homicidal. I hope he and Tyrion meet up again



			
				Cor Azer said:
			
		

> Glover could be interesting. I never really gave his character much thought, but I figured the region you're guessing he'll cover I think is being covered by Maege Mormont.




What would Maege Mormont have to offer in POV? I only suggest Glover becasue he and his force are sitting pretty in a strategically very important local.


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 21, 2004)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> I'm 90% sure that Littlefinger will not live to see the end of the series.  Heck, I think he might wind up dead in a coup in the Eyrie by the end of book 4.  He's bit off more than he could chew, and it's going to cost him, and probably hurt Sansa.




Currently (as I understand it) Littlefinger is one of the most powerful Lords in the Seven Kingdoms, he legally has claim to both Harrenhall and it's attendant lands and the vale (with it's unassailable "aerie"). He is also well-thought of in the eyes of the strongest faction currently vying for the crown (Tyrell/Lannister)



			
				cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> You know, I kind of think Sansa might off Littlefinger.




Maybe...though I think she--like her mother--has a freakin' _gift_ for doing the wrong thing. So unless MArtin decideds to start writing her as "somewhat less than reatrded" I doubt she's going to be all that decisive.


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 21, 2004)

ssampier said:
			
		

> ...Was Littlefinger the unknown man with a forked beard talking about magics in _The Game of Thrones_? I can't find the reference, sorry. I'll have to read the book again.




Nope, that was Magister Illyrio conversing with Varys the Spider.


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## AuroraGyps (Jul 21, 2004)

ssampier said:
			
		

> If Littlefinger does take advantage of her like I think he will, she may have cause to kill him. Succeeding is a different manner entirely, however.





Speaking of Sansa, did she see Littlefinger push her aunt to her death?  We know the bard did, but it wasn't clear to me if did.  She might have been so scared out of her wits, that she wasn't aware, or she was moved out of line of sight.


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## ssampier (Jul 21, 2004)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Nope, that was Magister Illyrio conversing with Varys the Spider.




Check. Thanks! It was one of those "brain nuggets" that came out at a random time. I haven't read GoT in a long time (since 2001 or so). Time to re-read the series again 



			
				AuroraGyps said:
			
		

> Speaking of Sansa, did she see Littlefinger push her aunt to her death? We know the bard did, but it wasn't clear to me if did. She might have been so scared out of her wits, that she wasn't aware, or she was moved out of line of sight.




Does Sansa know? Interesting point. Sansa is hugging a pillar (pg 913 TB) as she was worrying about her missing shoe. He pushes Lysa (914) and with guards at the door, he picks Sansa up, asks if she hurt and to run to alert the guards. My guess is no. Hopefully she will figure it out sooner or later (and recognize that Littlefinger is out only for himself).



			
				CrusaderX said:
			
		

> I seriously doubt if Martin will keep her this way, though.




That's good. I like Sansa all right, but I have a difficultly understanding her PoV. I really hope she wises sooner or later. I would prefer a steady progression, rather than a "bam! I get it now" epiphany.



			
				CrusaderX said:
			
		

> See the faq link I posted above.




I checked it out. Cool site. I only checked on Jon's possible parentage. I had my suspicions but they backed up the claim extensively; more than I would have.   The other thing was more of a curious "brain nugget" that had me wondering.

I often wonder how many characters Martin can whack in seven book series.  Hopefully the series won't end with a "happily ever after" type ending.


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## Banshee16 (Jul 21, 2004)

AuroraGyps said:
			
		

> So, I finally read the first three books in this series and I thought they were so great.  Tyrion is my favorite character, the books have evil characters that I really hate, and the cliffhanger-like chapters drove me crazy in a good way.   I can't wait for the next book, which is delayed until the end of the year, and I can't help but keep wondering what's gonna happen next.  Like, where is Arya's wolf?  She must still be alive, since Arya keeps "dreaming" about her.  And what about Hodor?  I can't help but think and hope there might be more to him than just being a simple minded, gentle giant.




1-For Cersei to die....but only after realizing how much of a moron she is.

2-For House Lannister to fall.  Jamie I'm not sure of...I used to hate him, but he does have redeeming qualities.

3-For House Frey to be betrayed and destroyed by someone they trusted.

4-Figure out who the guy with the black hands is.

These books are awesome....I read them for the first time last year.

Banshee


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## morbiczer (Aug 3, 2004)

Teflon Billy!

Robett Glover isn't holding Moat Caitlin. The Ironmen are holding it. And as far as i know, Robert Glover isn't even near it. The last I remember of him, he was defeted at Duskendale, where Roose Bolton had sent him to weaken the loyal Stark forces. I can't remember if he died there, is a prisoner, is missing in action or something else. The Glover you might think of is Galbart Glover, who was sent with Maege Mormont to the crannogmen to coordinate the attack on Moat Caitlin. I suspect the two of them are safe at Greywater Watch. And I don't think they have a great force with them, each of them took only one ship on their trip to the Neck.


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## nikolai (Aug 3, 2004)

AuroraGyps said:
			
		

> Speaking of Sansa, did she see Littlefinger push her aunt to her death?... She might have been so scared out of her wits, that she wasn't aware, or she was moved out of line of sight.




The incident happens in one of Sansa's Point-of-View chapters. So we can - by definition - be sure that she saw it. If she hadn't, we wouldn't know about it either.


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## Endur (Aug 3, 2004)

Sandor has to kill Gregor before he passes out of the book.



			
				Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Sandor- He's dead
> 
> Gregor-  Ohh he lives and is pretty pissed.


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## vtaltos (Aug 4, 2004)

Couple theories I have:
   The Hound is alive ( at least I hope so..)
   and at some point Brann will sit the Iron Throne ( maybe not for long...)


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## RaceBannon42 (Aug 4, 2004)

What I would love to see out of the remaining books are AFFC finished in 2004
ADWD done in 2006, and WoW done in 2008.


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## KenM (Aug 4, 2004)

I know that:

  AFFC = A Feast for Crows. 

  and 

  ADWD = A Dance With Dragons.

  bur whats WoW?

 My guess War of Westros or something like that. That makes six books, whats the title of the last one?


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## RaceBannon42 (Aug 4, 2004)

book 6 is supposed to be titled the winds of winter. I can't recall what the possible 7th book might be called.


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## Thaiger (Aug 5, 2004)

RaceBannon42 said:
			
		

> book 6 is supposed to be titled the winds of winter. I can't recall what the possible 7th book might be called.




If a seventh book is required, the tenative name is A Time for Wolves


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## KenM (Aug 5, 2004)

Thaiger said:
			
		

> If a seventh book is required, the tenative name is A Time for Wolves




  GRRM said it should go 7 books. Orginally 2 trilogies, but there was so much stuff happening between them, he needed to do another book to tell the story of the transtion. IMO thats why AFFC is taking so long, it was not orginally planned.

  Edit: 1500th post.


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## RaceBannon42 (Aug 5, 2004)

KenM said:
			
		

> GRRM said it should go 7 books. Orginally 2 trilogies, but there was so much stuff happening between them, he needed to do another book to tell the story of the transtion. IMO thats why AFFC is taking so long, it was not orginally planned.
> 
> Edit: 1500th post.




From everything I've seen from George, he still _hopes_ to keep it to 6 books, but admits it might be 7. His partner Paris is convinced it will be 7. I believe he originally planned for it to be a trilogy when he started out writing it, but he quickly found that was not going to work.   Personally I don't care how many books it is as long as it keeps moving forward, and does not bog down ala WoT. Frankly nothing gives me such mixed feelings as finishing an outstanding book. I feel the satisfaction of having read a truly outstanding novel, but the regret that I will now need to wait x amount of time to find out what happens next. When talking of a series like aSoIaF, the joy of finishing it will be tempered even more by the sadness of know its over and I don't have the next book to look forward to.


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## Alaric_Prympax (Aug 6, 2004)

RaceBannon42 said:
			
		

> From everything I've seen from George, he still _hopes_ to keep it to 6 books, but admits it might be 7.




FWIW I too have heard the same thing.  He trying to keep it to 6 books.  But with AFfC which has things he didn't plan and still has the same overall story to tell I don't know how it can't be seven books.  I'm hoping that it will be seven as long as the current quality of the books are kept up.  This is my favorite series now and I look forward to the next one... whenever it will be out.


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## KenM (Aug 6, 2004)

notice how the page count gets bigger with each book? Wonder how many pages the last book will be.


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## RaceBannon42 (Aug 9, 2004)

KenM said:
			
		

> notice how the page count gets bigger with each book? Wonder how many pages the last book will be.




I don't know much about publishing, but Martin has stated several times that a Storm of Swords is just about as big as they can make one book.  He wants A Feast for Crows to be about the length of a Clash of Kings, but  admits it will likely approach the size of aSoS.  Persoanlly I like a long book as long as its high quality. I kinda feel ripped off if I'm done in 300 pages


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## cignus_pfaccari (Aug 10, 2004)

KenM said:
			
		

> notice how the page count gets bigger with each book? Wonder how many pages the last book will be.




As long as it's good, I don't care how long it is.  The longer, the better, really; more page count = more time killed with book on Metro or other trips.

Of course, Book 7 could come out in two-three parts, like To Green Angel Tower.  

Brad


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## The Human Target (Aug 10, 2004)

Hopefully AFFC doesnt come out too soon, I need time to reread the first three or I'm going to be lost. And I hope Jaime Lannister gets to live, but tossing kids out of windows might warrant a death sentence in the North.


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## Cor Azer (Aug 11, 2004)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> What would Maege Mormont have to offer in POV? I only suggest Glover becasue he and his force are sitting pretty in a strategically very important local.




As noted by someone else, Galbert Glvoer and Maege Mormont were the ones sent to hook up with the Crannogmen and retake Moat Cailin. 



Spoiler



Also, I've heard that Maege is supposedly going to find Rickon, and use him for her bid at the North.


 That potentially gives her something to do (although, I guess there's no specifics there that could prevent a Glover from accomplishing such things either).


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