# Special Conversion Thread: Finishing off giants and their kin



## Shade (May 23, 2008)

This special conversion thread will attempt to finish off the remaining giants, ogres, trolls, and their kin.

Here are the remaining creatures Echohawk has identified as being possible giants:

Gigantes (Legends & Lore)


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

*Ogre, Stonecrown*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Mountains, hills
FREQUENCY: Common
ORGANIZATION: Tribe or company
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Common low (8-10), Leader/Captain average (11-12)
TREASURE: C, Y
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 2-20
ARMOR CLASS: Common 5, Leader/Captain 3
MOVEMENT: 9, Cl 6
HIT DICE: Common 4+3, Leader 5+4, Captain 6+6
THACO: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 (2 in battle-rage)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Common 2d6, Leader 2d8, Captain 2d10 (or by weapon +6)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Battle-rage
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: Large (9'+)
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE: Common 420, Leader 975, Captain 1,400

Stonecrown ogres run to fat, not surprising considering how much of their time they spend eating. They are crude but powerful, and take a simple joy in killing and destruction. Their rank odor is composed of equal parts grease, filth-ridden garments, and unbathed foulness mixing into a stench like powerful sour milk.

When bored, the creatures and fond of ornamenting themselves with earrings, nose-rings, and other piercings; Stonecorwn ogres find these attractive, and sometimes compliment other creatures that share their tastes. They speak their own language, and leaders and mercenaries often speak the goblin, orog, or common tongues.

Combat: In mass combat, Stonecrown ogres form club-, axe-, or mace-wielding forces that are effective through brute strength. Despite their simple combat style, their enormous strength gives them a +7 damage bonus with any weapon they use. With arduous training, Stonecrown ogres can keep remarkable discipline in battle, until the battle-rage strikes them. The battle-rage is blood frenzy triggered when the ogre's blood is first shed. This frenzy allows them to attack twice each round.

Units of Stonecrown ogres that have worked and trained together for long periods can control their battle frenzy, raging only when they deem it appropriate. The sight of an entire company of ogres going into battle-rage at once has routed more than one army. Alone or in the wilds, Stonecrown ogres are voracious hunters with little discipline and no great cunning. They can climb sheer stone faces through force of willpower alone, often reaching a mountaintop with bloodied hands.

Stonecrown ogre leaders always have maximum hit points and superior armor, generally a form of chain. Mercenary captains have superior armor and often carry Stonecrown arbalests, a type of rock-hurling heavy crossbow. The 10 lb. stones that these arbalests hurl can crack skulls and breastplates; their range is 30/60/120, and their damage is 1d10/2d6, plus an equipment saving throw vs. crushing blow for shields and armor.

Originally appeared in Warlock of the Stonecrowns (1995).


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

Normal ogres are Str 21, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7.

These guys have a damage bonus of +7, which would give them Str 24-25.

Int is listed as 8-10.

It sounds like they'll have something similar to this ability:

Rage (Ex): A wolverine that takes damage in combat flies into a berserk rage on its next turn, clawing and biting madly until either it or its opponent is dead. It gains +4 to Strength, +4 to Constitution, and –2 to Armor Class. The creature cannot end its rage voluntarily.


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

Do we know what damage bonus normal 2e ogres have?  But, yes, I'd give them Str 24-25 in the absence of any other info.  Int 9?  

Should the rage be like the wolverine or more like the barbarian?  In particular, should it be on a timer or only end when someone dies?  I almost see a difference between "wild" and "trained" stormcrown ogres.


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

The 2e ogre had +2 damage.

The blood frenzy almost sounds more like the frenzied berserker's frenzy ability, with the extra attack.

Regardless of what route we go, I don't want it to be the same as barbarian rage, preferring the "wild" version you describe.  Otherwise, they'll essentially be ogre barbarians (bo-ring).


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## demiurge1138 (May 24, 2008)

I say Strength higher. If ogres only had a +2 in the past. What 2e giants had a +7 damage bonus, for comparison?


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## freyar (May 24, 2008)

Well, if we want a Str bonus +5 more than the 3.5 ogre, we'll aim for Str 30-31.  

I like the idea of the frenzied berserker.  We can always tweak back and forth on the wild vs trained bit.


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## Big Mac (May 26, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Bosk giant (Krynnspace)
> Swamp giant (Krynnspace)




Two more Spelljammer creatures - yay! Somebody poke me when you get to these guys. 

(Bosk Giants and Swamp Giants live on the planet Chislev, so it *might* be worth looking at the Dragonlance god Chislev, and the other two Dragonlance nature gods - Habbakuk and Zeboim for ideas. The Desolation Giant, Half-Giant and (Goblin) Cave Lord from Bestiary of Krynn might also be helpful. I'd say that most Bosk Giants would worship Zeboim and most Swamp Giants, including the Shamen and Druids, would worship Chislev, although this worship could be totally different from the sort of worship these gods get on Ansalon. Some sort of sidebar mentioning appropriate parts of DLCS and HootS could be appropriate. I'd say these creatures are "groundlings" by SJ standards, so they probably don't need anything from Beyond the Moons.)



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Regardless of what route we go, I don't want it to be the same as barbarian rage, preferring the "wild" version you describe.  Otherwise, they'll essentially be ogre barbarians (bo-ring).




There would be some advantages in making them more compatible with "ogre barbarians". Firstly they could get barbarian as a favored class and secondly the barbarian class level could stack with their racial HD for calculating rage.

But you could give them some sort of "Improved Rage" ability that is more like the wild version and replaces the normal rage in Stonecrow Ogre Barbarian NPCs/PCs.


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## Shade (May 27, 2008)

In 2e, hill giants were +7 damage.  Hill giants have Str 25 now.

Here's one attempt at modify the frenzied berserker's ability to stonecrown ogres:

Blood Frenzy (Ex):  If a stonecrown ogre takes damage from an attack, spell, trap, or any other source, it automatically enters a blood frenzy at the start of its next action, as long as it has at least one daily usage of the ability left. To avoid entering a frenzy in response to damage, the stonecrown ogre must make a successful Will save (DC 10 + points of damage suffered since its last action) at the start of its next action.

While frenzied, it gains a +6 bonus to Strength and, if it makes a full attack action, gains a single extra attack each round at its highest bonus. (This latter effect is not cumulative with haste or other effects that grant additional attacks.) However, it also takes a -4 penalty to Armor Class and takes 2 points of nonlethal damage per round. A blood frenzy lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the stonecrown ogre's Constitution modifier. To end the frenzy before its duration expires, the stonecrown ogre may attempt a DC 20 Will save once per round as a free action. Success ends the frenzy immediately; failure means it continues. The effects of frenzy stack with those from any rage ability the character might have.

While frenzied, the stonecrown ogre cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Intimidate), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can it cast spells, drink potions, activate magic items, or read scrolls. It can use any feat it has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, or metamagic feats. 

When a blood frenzy ends, the stonecrown ogre is fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity, unable to charge or run) for the duration of the encounter. If the ogre is still under the effect of a rage ability, the fatigued condition does not apply until the rage ends--at which point the ogre is exhausted, not merely fatigued.


...or, we could go much simpler...

Blood Frenzy (Ex):  If a stonecrown ogre takes damage from an attack, spell, trap, or any other source, it automatically enters a blood frenzy at the start of its next action.  While in a blood frenzy, the ogre gains a single extra attack each round at its highest bonus when making a full attack.  The blood frenzy lasts for the duration of the encounter, after which the stonecrown ogre is fatigued.


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## freyar (May 27, 2008)

These probably shouldn't be so much (or any) stronger than hill giants.  Let's stick to Str 25, even though that's not so much stronger than ogres.  I could see going to 27 if you want, but that's probably it.

I like the second option, but give it a Will save to avoid frenzy.  Then we can say that trained stormcrown ogres get a bonus on that Will save and can make a Will save to initiate the frenzy voluntarily.  (The trained bit can go in a sidebar.)


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## Big Mac (May 28, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I like the second option, but give it a Will save to avoid frenzy.  Then we can say that trained stormcrown ogres get a bonus on that Will save and can make a Will save to initiate the frenzy voluntarily.  (The trained bit can go in a sidebar.)




I like the second option too. It is a lot shorter, so is less for a DM to learn. I do like your Will save idea as the alternative would be a bunch of Stonecrown Ogres biting their tongues to cause a point of damage that gives them the extra attack. However, shouldn't the "training" count as a monster feat that is only available to NPC/PC Stonecrown Ogres? I'm thinking something like this:

*Controlled Frenzy [General, Fighter]*

*Prerequisite*
Blood Frenzy

*Benefits*
A creature with this feat has trained itself to go into a Blood Frenzy as a standard action. A Controlled Frenzy is identical to a Blood Frenzy, but the creature does not need to take damage before it can go into the frenzy.

*Normal*
A creature without this feat can only enter a Blood Frenzy after taking damage.​
That could go into your sidebar if you think it works. We could change "A creature with this feat has trained itself to go into a Blood Frenzy as a standard action." to "...as a free action." if you think that is better.


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## Shade (May 28, 2008)

OK.  Getting back to ability scores...

Normal ogres are Str 21, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7.

We decided on Str 25.  Int is listed as 8-10.

2e ogres had 4+1 HD.  These guys have 4+3.  Hill giants have Con 19, so I don't want to go that high.  So how about...

Str 25, Dex 8, Con 17, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 7?


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## demiurge1138 (May 28, 2008)

Those ability scores look okay. I'm personally leaning a little more towards Str 27, but understand a desire to stay lower.


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## freyar (May 28, 2008)

I think the stats look fine.  If we want to push Str higher, is there any precedent for some type of ogre being stronger than a hill (or similar type of true) giant?


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## Shade (May 28, 2008)

I don't believe so, although the skullcrusher ogres in MM3 also have Str 25.

What if we compromise to Str 26?  It is mechanically the same as the hill giant, but still gives the giant "bragging rights".


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## demiurge1138 (May 29, 2008)

Psst. Str 26 has a higher modifier than Str 25.

Really, I'm fine with Str 25.


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## Big Mac (May 29, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I think the stats look fine.  If we want to push Str higher, is there any precedent for some type of ogre being stronger than a hill (or similar type of true) giant?




I had a look in the Monster Indices thread, but although it lists a bunch of useful "All the Different Types of..." threads, there isn't yet one for ogres. Orcs have been done, but not Ogres. If you think this information would help, maybe now would be a good time for the "All the Different Types of Ogres" thread to get made.


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## Echohawk (May 29, 2008)

I did list ogres in the All the Different Kinds of Giant thread, but those are only the ones that are of type "Giant", rather than *all* the ogres.


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## Shade (May 29, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Psst. Str 26 has a higher modifier than Str 25.




D'oh!  What was I thinking?  

Added to Homebrews.



> MOVEMENT: 9, Cl 6





> They can climb sheer stone faces through force of willpower alone, often reaching a mountaintop with bloodied hands.




It looks like they have a climb speed.



> Stonecrown ogres run to fat, not surprising considering how much of their time they spend eating.




Add 50 pounds to the weight of the standard ogre?



> They speak their own language, and leaders and mercenaries often speak the goblin, orog, or common tongues.




Stonecrown ogres speak Giant, and those specimens who boast Intelligence scores of at least 10 also speak Common, Goblin, or Orc?



> Mercenary captains have superior armor and often carry Stonecrown arbalests, a type of rock-hurling heavy crossbow. The 10 lb. stones that these arbalests hurl can crack skulls and breastplates; their range is 30/60/120, and their damage is 1d10/2d6, plus an equipment saving throw vs. crushing blow for shields and armor.




Add this weapon as a sidebar?  Give stonecrown ogres weapon familiarity with it, or just leave it up to them to take the appropriate Exotic Weapon feat?


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## demiurge1138 (May 29, 2008)

I say weapon familiarity. That way, a stonecrown ogre with a level in a full BAB class gets access to it.


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## freyar (May 30, 2008)

Agreed, and agreed to everything in Shade's post above.  Looking at the original numbers, though, I think the climb speed should probably be higher (base climb about 2/3 base speed).  How about 20 ft for the climb speed?


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## Shade (May 30, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 7 
Normal ogres have Climb, Listen, Spot

Feats: 2
Normal ogres have Toughness, Weapon Focus (greatclub) 

CR: 4?  (That extra attack each round at low levels seems to warrant an additional +1 CR over a standard ogre)


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## demiurge1138 (May 30, 2008)

CR 4 sounds right. Shouldn't there be some sort of penalty for entering a blood-frenzy, if there's a Will save? Such as--attacking the nearest creature, or being unable to stop attacking? If the latter is the case, we'd want to give it a real duration, since the definition of "encounter" could prove problematic.


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## freyar (May 30, 2008)

How about going the same route as the dire wolverine and saying "until either it or its opponent is dead"?  But yes, I agree, it has to attack whatever damaged it (or the nearest creature if prevented from attacking whoever damaged it).

Split the skills about evenly among those three.  How about WF (greataxe) and Power Attack?

There's an extra t in "arbalest" in Weapon Familiarity.  For the arbalest, let's leave the threat range at 20 but give it triple damage on a crit.  I'm all for ranged sunder attempts, too.


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## Big Mac (Jun 1, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> For the arbalest, let's leave the threat range at 20 but give it triple damage on a crit.  I'm all for ranged sunder attempts, too.




Tripple damage _sometimes_ seems to fit in better than double damage more often.

Ranged sunder also seems to fit in well with the original version. I like it. But can weapons "crack skulls" in third edition? That sounds more like a called shot, kind-of effect. I realise this is just flavor text, but I can see a slightly dim DM searching for the skull cracking rule.


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2008)

Updated.

Someone wanna rewrite the blood frenzy to incorporate the suggested changes?



> ORGANIZATION: Tribe or company
> INTELLIGENCE: Common low (8-10), Leader/Captain average (11-12)
> HIT DICE: Common 4+3, Leader 5+4, Captain 6+6
> 
> ...




Ogre's Organization: Solitary, pair, gang (3–4), or band (5–8)

Organization:  Solitary, pair, gang (3–4), band (5–8), tribe (2-20 plus 1 leader of 1st level), or company (2-20 plus 1 leader of 1st level per 5 ogres and 1 captain of 2nd level)?


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2008)

Blood Frenzy (Ex): If a stonecrown ogre takes damage from an attack, spell, trap, or any other source, it must make a successful Will save (DC 10 + points of damage suffered since its last action) at the start of its next action or enter a blood frenzy. While in a blood frenzy, the ogre 
must attempt to attack the most recent creature or object to damage it; if that is not possible, it must attempt to attack the nearest creature instead.  In addition, it gains a single extra attack each round at its highest bonus when making a full attack. The blood frenzy lasts until either the ogre or its opponent is dead, after which the stonecrown ogre is fatigued.


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2008)

Updated.

Look good?


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2008)

Think so!


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## Big Mac (Jun 7, 2008)

My only concern is with this: _"While in a blood frenzy, the ogre 
must attempt to attack the most recent creature or object to damage it; if that is not possible, it must attempt to attack the nearest creature instead."_

I can see someone trying to manipulate this into making Stonecrown Ogres attack each other. I think the Controlled Frenzy feat should also give the creature some sort of way to avoid (or try to avoid) attacking allies.

(For example if an archer in a fortified tower shot at a Stonecrown Ogre at the back of a bunch of Stonecrown Ogres, that creature can't attack back. Instead of hitting another Stonecrown Ogre next to it, I think it should charge forward and start hacking at the door at the bottom of the tower. As long as people between it and the archer don't stop it moving forward, I think it should be able to move past them and carry on searching for the archer.)

In other words, I think the Controlled Frenzy feat should also allow the Stonecrown Ogre to control (to an extent) who its frenzy is aimed at and delay fighting creatures if breaking down doors or ripping down walls will let it get to a creature that has attacked it.

I think they also need to be able to recognise when an opponent has escaped (teleported away or whatever) and try to prematurely end their Blood Frenzy. How about giving a Stonecrown Ogre with the Controlled Frenzy feat the ability to make additional will saves (maybe one per round) to delay or end their Blood Frenzy or alter the target of their frenzy?

EDIT: Or is this too much for a single feat? Would you want to make a second feat that adds to the first one?


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2008)

Rather than make it a feat, we can just follow the frenzied berserker's example and allow another Will save to end the frenzy early.

"To end the frenzy before its duration expires, the character may attempt a DC 20 Will save once per round as a free action. Success ends the frenzy immediately; failure means it continues."


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## Big Mac (Jun 11, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Rather than make it a feat, we can just follow the frenzied berserker's example and allow another Will save to end the frenzy early.
> 
> "To end the frenzy before its duration expires, the character may attempt a DC 20 Will save once per round as a free action. Success ends the frenzy immediately; failure means it continues."




This sounds good. The "once per round" makes it very clear.


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## Shade (Jun 12, 2008)

*Giant, Ogre* 
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Mountains, desert
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Clans
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-6)
TREASURE: D
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 14
THAC0: 7
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-12 + 7/1-12 +7
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Hurl boulders (1-10/1-10)
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: H (20 ft. tall)
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
XP VALUE: 4,000; 5,000 (clan leader); 175 (juvenile)

Aside from their phenomenal size, ogre giants have more in common with ogres and ogre magi than they do with "true" giants (such as hill, stone, and jungle varieties). Ogre magi and other solitary beings may use ogre giants as guardians. Ogres, at least the enlightened ones, avoid their unpredictable and oft-savage cousins.

Standing 20 feet tall and weighing some 8,500 pounds, ogre giants are larger than many true giants. Bristling hair covers their hulking bodies, ranging in color from tan to umber. They wear no clothing or armor unless a master has trained them to do so. Their visage is fearsome. About 6 in 10 ogre giants are cyclopean, having a single eye centered in their hairy forehead. Their richly veined ears hang to their shoulders like those of an elephant; by flapping them gently, ogre giants can cool their blood and their bodies. Males have great tusks curling out from their powerful jaws, glistening with drool. Both sexes may live up for up to 500 years, by which time their faces have gone completely gray.

Ogre giants speak the language of ogres. Those who live near caravan routes or other civilized areas speak Midani as well. A few legendary creatures have attained enlightenment and gained positions as missionaries to their own kind. In general, however, the race consists of savage, unenlightened brutes.

Combat: Ogre giants typically fight with their powerful fists or by tossing boulders in the manner of true giants. They can throw only small boulders (1d10 damage), with a maximum range of 120 yards. However, they can toss one with each hand, or two boulders per round. Given a ready supply (such as a mountain stronghold), an ogre giant can lob missiles down on his or her enemies indefinitely.

Habitat/Society: Ogre giants live in family groups, or clans. Each clan has one leader, a male with maximum hit points. He has one to three wives, each with normal ogre giant statistics. The rest of the clan includes the leader's children, as well as his unmarried siblings. To determine the statistics of younger ogre giants at random, roll 1d4 for each. A "4" means the youth has the abilities and statistics of a common ogre. (See Volume One of the Monstrous Compendium.)  Otherwise, its statistics match those of an adult ogre giant.

Ogre giants occasionally are in the employ of a more powerful individual, either a sha'ir, sorcerer, or ogre mage. Such individuals usually appreciate their solitude. They use ogre giants as guardians to keep ill-advised interlopers from disturbing them. In return, the powerful master helps protect the clan against more diligent foes.

Ogre giants keep no slaves, nor do they eat the flesh of sentient creatures. They kill their enemies and build rock cairns around them. They also bury their own dead in these cairns, continually adding to the mass of stones over the years. After a clan has been in one location for several generations, its cairns look like small mountains. Greedy tomb-robbers and necromancers searching for raw materials sometimes desecrate such mounds. Not surprisingly, ogre giants view those actions as a sacrilege, one that must be punished by death.

Ogre giants are simple creatures, easily confused and deceived. They are aware of their limitations, however, and are very vengeful toward those who cheat or lie to them (once they figure it out). They have mercurial tempers, and if angered, ogre giants will lash out, seeking to destroy whatever (or whomever) confounded them.

Ecology: Ogre giant clans are few and far between, owing in part to their vast requirements for food. Some maintain their own herds of sheep and goats. Some also trade with humans, but most keep to themselves. In general, lone ogre giants are males looking for a clan with daughters suitable for marriage, or they are males looking for a location in which to establish their own clan.

Ogre giants are confused by crowds. They do not adapt well to army life, and most cannot even handle a visit to a city bazaar. If the pressure of dealing with other creatures becomes too much for an ogre giant, he or she simply goes berserk, striking out at everything confusing. An ogre giant amok in a busy bazaar is as destructive as many earthquakes.  As a result, clans are mostly left alone.

Originally appeared in Land of Fate (1992).


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## Shade (Jun 12, 2008)

+7 damage would indicate Str equal to a hill giant.  However, these guys are much larger, so I'd recommend taking the hill giant Str score and upsizing to Huge, giving us Str 33, which is still weaker than the other Huge giants in the Monster Manual.

We know Int is 5-6.  An ogre mage has Dex 10, which I think seems appropriate here.  Upsizing an ogre mage to Huge yields Con 21, which is only slightly less than the other Huge giants in the Monster Manual (at Con 23).  We can borrow the other mental stats from the ogre (which are identical to the hill giant as well).

So...

Str 33, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 12, 2008)

Stats seem quite reasonable.


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## Shade (Jun 12, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2008)

Looks pretty good so far.  I'd change rock throwing to 

Dual Rock Throwing (Ex): An ogre giant can throw rocks as other types of giants can.  In addition, as a full round action, an ogre giant can throw two rocks (one per hand) with no attack penalty.  The range increment is x feet for an ogre giant’s thrown rocks.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 14, 2008)

Do we want to give them some sort of a frenzy ability, or is their violent hatred of confusing crowds just a result of their low intelligence and chaotic natures?


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2008)

I had just been thinking of that as flavor text, I guess.  If we went with some sort of frenzy (or maybe they act as if targeted by the confusion spell), I'd go with some sort of probability/hour that they become confused.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 14, 2008)

I'd prefer that just being flavor myself, I think.


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## Big Mac (Jun 15, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Looks pretty good so far.  I'd change rock throwing to
> 
> Dual Rock Throwing (Ex): An ogre giant can throw rocks as other types of giants can.  In addition, as a full round action, an ogre giant can throw two rocks (one per hand) with no attack penalty.  The range increment is x feet for an ogre giant’s thrown rocks.




It already says *Duel rock throwing* in the Special Attacks section, but not below the stats yet. It is stil listed as *Rock Throwing (Ex)* there.

I'm wondering about the Rock Catching (Ex). If the Ogre Giant can throw two rocks at once, should it be able to catch two rocks at once? (I'd guess that big rocks wouldn't fit in one hand, but smaller rocks might.)



> Ogre Giant Characters
> 
> An ogre giant cleric has access to two of the following domains: x.




What do ogres, merrows and ogre magi get?


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2008)

Big Mac said:
			
		

> It already says *Duel rock throwing* in the Special Attacks section, but not below the stats yet. It is stil listed as *Rock Throwing (Ex)* there.



That's why I wanted to change it below! 


> I'm wondering about the Rock Catching (Ex). If the Ogre Giant can throw two rocks at once, should it be able to catch two rocks at once? (I'd guess that big rocks wouldn't fit in one hand, but smaller rocks might.)



I think I'd just stick with one rock caught.



> What do ogres, merrows and ogre magi get?



No domains listed for any of those (in the SRD), so I guess I'd be inclined to leave this off.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

I agree that the "frenzy" should be flavor text.   I also agree with dual rock throwing, but single rock catching.   I dropped the Characters section since we're ditching domains.

Updated.

120 feet for rock throwing?

Skills: 17

Feats: 5


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2008)

Is it too much trouble to add the character section back?  Hill and Stone giants get one, so I think it makes sense here.

120 ft is good.

9 and 8 in Spot and Listen or do we want to go with something like Climb/Jump?

Power Attack, Cleave, Imp Bull Rush, Awesome Blow, Imp Overrun or Great Cleave?


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Is it too much trouble to add the character section back?  Hill and Stone giants get one, so I think it makes sense here.




Sure.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> 9 and 8 in Spot and Listen or do we want to go with something like Climb/Jump?




Lets work those in...maybe Climb 3, Jump 3, Listen 5, Spot 6?



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Power Attack, Cleave, Imp Bull Rush, Awesome Blow, Imp Overrun or Great Cleave?




I'm least in favor of Great Cleave, and could see swapping Improved Overrun with a ranged feat due to their preference for lobbing stones.


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2008)

Skills sound good.

Only gets 5 feats.  So we could swap Cleave and Great Cleave for PBS and Far Shot.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

I like...it helps differentiate them a bit more.

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or clan (x)

Challenge Rating: 8?  (They are about equal to stone giants)

An ogre giant's bag usually contains x.


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## Big Mac (Jun 17, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Organization: Solitary or clan (x)




The original had the number appearing as 1-6. That would seem to suggest that a clan would be 2-6 giants. They say elsewhere that a clan consists of a male (with full hp), then 1-3 wives. Any more giants in a clan are children or unmaried siblings of the clan leader. But I'm not sure that 6 is enough giants to make up a proper clan. Maybe the 1-6 was supposed to be the number encountered rather than the entire clan.

If some giants keep herds of sheep or goats, I'd expect them to mostly be the ones in clans.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> An ogre giant's bag usually contains x.




Do they need a bag?

If they throw twice as many rocks as other giants, I'd expect them to carry more of them. 

If ogre giants keep sheep and goats, I would guess that they would carry food like an extra large goats cheese as well as meat from their sheep and goats.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2008)

Personally, instead of Far Shot... I'd give them Quick Draw. More rocks/round.

I say that their bags are mostly rocks, although goat cheese, shears and wool would also make sense.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

Quick Draw is a good idea too.  I'll leave that up to Shade.

Agreed on the bags.  For the clan, I'd say 2-6 adults and a similar number of children.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

Quick Draw is a great idea!

Stone giants carry 2d12 throwing rocks in their bags.  Maybe 4d6 for these guys?

For organization, how about:  Solitary, family (1 male plus 1-3 wives and 1-6 children), or clan (2-6 males plus 3-12 females and 4-24 children)?


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

4d6 and organization look about right.  I think these are done, then!


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2008)

Sounds done to me too.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

That finishes up the ogres!  Now on to the remaining trolls...

*Stone Troll * 
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Mountains/subterranean
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Group
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore/Petrivore (rocks)
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Q (E)
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 2-8 (2d4)
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 10
HIT DICE: 10+2
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d6+6 (×2)/2d4+6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Regeneration, see below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (11' +)
MORALE: Fanatic (18)
XP VALUE: 7,000
Shaman: 9,000

Stone trolls are horrendous creatures, towering over most of their kin. They have sunken eye sockets, massive claws, a fangfilled mouth, and a nasty disposition. Stone trolls are completely hairless. Their skin is hard, rocky, and is colored to provide camouflage in their natural habitat. Stone trolls gain this coloration by ingesting rocks and stones common to their territory, assimilating the minerals into their skin.  Because of this coloration, they have a 75% chance of remaining unseen by casual observation when against a rocky background, and can attack by surprise with a -3 penalty to the victim's surprise roll.   

Due to their rock-hard claws, they are able to successfully scale any stone or earth surface. Because metal blunts their claws and wood splinters beneath their claws, stone trolls have only a 35% chance of climbing such surfaces. Stone trolls possess infravision out to 30'.

Combat: Stone trolls rip apart their opponents by attacking with their devastating claws and fangs. They aren't as agile as other trolls, though, and can only spread their three attacks between two opponents. They never use hand-held weapons, seeing them as weak alternatives to their own armament.

On the other hand, they thoroughly enjoy pulverizing enemies with thrown boulders. A stone troll can throw two stones per round up to 35 yards away for 2d8 damage each.

Its highly mineral nature makes a stone troll a slow regenerator, but it is also very difficult to hurt. They regenerate one hit point per round beginning on the second round after being wounded. Due to their rocky skin, they suffer half damage from all edged weapons and their limbs aren't easily severed. If cut off with a vorpal blade or sword of sharpness, the limb dies immediately, but the body will continue to fight, even headless, as long as it has one attack. If the head and both arms are lost, the torso attempts to flee. Stone trolls are immune to all rock-affecting spells and take half damage from fire/heat, cold, and electrical attacks and may regenerate all such damage. Wounds from acid-based attacks cannot be regenerated. If a stone troll is struck by both fire/heat and cold attacks in a single round, it takes double normal damage (no save) from the second attack and must make a save vs. paralyzation at -3. If it fails, its rocky body shatters due to the extreme temperature shifts, forever dead. Even if it does save and survives, the damage from the two attacks cannot be regenerated.

Like all trolls, stone trolls are always hungry, and stone trolls are distracted (60% chancel by food dropped by fleeing prey.

Habitat/Society: Stone trolls prefer living in caves, in the mountains, or on rocky plateaus. Their "lairs" are often right out in the open as sunlight doesn't bother them. They often curl up in a boulder-like shape whenever tired, sleeping wherever they might be.

They gather into tribes led by the most powerful male. Stone troll males are the larger, stronger gender, but only females have the skills to become shamans. Such shamans may reach 7th level with the following spheres: Charm, combat, divination, elemental (earth only), sun, and weather. The chieftain is often advised by, and mated to, the strongest shaman.

Stone trolls aren't very prolific, the females giving birth to a single whelp every ten years. The young mature in about twenty years. Stone trolls can live in excess of 500 years.

Because of their rocky nature, stone trolls can subsist by eating stones, gems, and other minerals. Though not appetizing, it is nourishing and helps them develop their concealing coloration. They prefer live prey, though any meat is fair game.

Stone trolls consider all other beings prey, and never ally themselves with other groups for power. They attack most creatures for hunger and sport, but attack rock trolls (see DRAGON® issue #141) out of sheer hatred. They consider rock trolls to be perversions of their race, while rock trolls see stone trolls as inferior, ugly versions of themselves.  Their hatred is so great that the two species will never join forces, even if attacked by a common enemy.

Ecology: Stone trolls are the top predator in their territories and eat anything they can catch. Eventually, their unending hunger depletes the wildlife of their rocky home, and they are forced to raid the civilized lands for a few months if they desire fresh meat. Luckily, these raids are as rare as the stone trolls themselves.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #199 (1993).


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

I gotta say, I love the term "petrivore".


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

A good word for the descriptive text! 

Dual rock throwing again, I think.  Regeneration 1, acid deals normal damage, some sort of weird resistance/vulnerability to fire/cold, too.


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## Big Mac (Jun 17, 2008)

*Ogre Giant Children*



			
				demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Sounds done to me too.




The Ogre Giant itself is done, but I've got a small question about thier children. The original write up says to treat them as Common Ogre's, but you haven't mentioned what to do with them in the conversion.

Should they be run as standard Ogres? (Maybe with a bit of flavor text saying something like: "Ogre giant children are often mistaken for common Ogre's from a distance, but when seen up close their racial heriatage is more easy to spot.") 

Or should they be run as short Ogre Giants with less HD, a smaller size category and less skills and feats?

Are there any other races (especially giants or ogres) that have families and children in their stat-blocks?


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

I like your suggestion in the second sentence, and will update accordingly.

Edit:  I actually had that covered in the Society section, but will still include the "easily mistaken" bit.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

A lot of humanoids do mention "kids" in the organization line (see orcs, goblins, etc, and look for noncombatants), but most don't say anything about stats.  However, it would probably be easy enough just to say "Ogre giant children have the same statistics as ogres but appear like smaller versions of ogre giants."


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## Big Mac (Jun 17, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> A lot of humanoids do mention "kids" in the organization line (see orcs, goblins, etc, and look for noncombatants), but most don't say anything about stats.  However, it would probably be easy enough just to say "Ogre giant children have the same statistics as ogres but appear like smaller versions of ogre giants."




That was what I was getting at. The original version goes out of its way to say that children are like common ogres, but I hadn't seen that on other monsters and didn't know if that sort of detail was something that was outdated by 3rd edition convention.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 18, 2008)

The cold + fire = shattering death part is "realistic", certainly, but I don't know how well it'll work in modern (okay, slightly older than modern) D&D. It's like the opposite of a tactical feat.


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## Shade (Jun 18, 2008)

Let's figure out ability scores.

A standard troll has Str 23, Dex 14, Con 23, Int 6, Wis 9, Cha 6

These guys are said to be less agile, but appear to have +2 greater damage than a 2e troll.  Int is the same.  I could see a bit higher Con due to being slightly bigger and seemingly more durable. 

So maybe Str 27, Dex 10, Con 25, Int 6, Wis 9, Cha 6?

I could see dropping Dex to 8, too.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 18, 2008)

Let's keep Dex at 10.


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## Shade (Jun 18, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



> Their skin is hard, rocky, and is colored to provide camouflage in their natural habitat. Stone trolls gain this coloration by ingesting rocks and stones common to their territory, assimilating the minerals into their skin.  Because of this coloration, they have a 75% chance of remaining unseen by casual observation when against a rocky background, and can attack by surprise with a -3 penalty to the victim's surprise roll.




Racial bonus on Hide checks made in rocky environments?



> Due to their rock-hard claws, they are able to successfully scale any stone or earth surface. Because metal blunts their claws and wood splinters beneath their claws, stone trolls have only a 35% chance of climbing such surfaces.




Racial bonus on climb checks on stone/earth surfaces and racial penalty on other surfaces?



> On the other hand, they thoroughly enjoy pulverizing enemies with thrown boulders. A stone troll can throw two stones per round up to 35 yards away for 2d8 damage each.




Round to 100 feet for thrown rocks?



> Its highly mineral nature makes a stone troll a slow regenerator, but it is also very difficult to hurt. They regenerate one hit point per round beginning on the second round after being wounded.




Regeneration 1?



> Due to their rocky skin, they suffer half damage from all edged weapons and their limbs aren't easily severed.




Damage reduction 10/bludgeoning?



> If cut off with a vorpal blade or sword of sharpness, the limb dies immediately, but the body will continue to fight, even headless, as long as it has one attack. If the head and both arms are lost, the torso attempts to flee.




Anything special we want to do with that?



> Stone trolls are immune to all rock-affecting spells and take half damage from fire/heat, cold, and electrical attacks and may regenerate all such damage.




Resistance to cold 10, electricity 10, fire 10?



> Wounds from acid-based attacks cannot be regenerated. If a stone troll is struck by both fire/heat and cold attacks in a single round, it takes double normal damage (no save) from the second attack and must make a save vs. paralyzation at -3. If it fails, its rocky body shatters due to the extreme temperature shifts, forever dead. Even if it does save and survives, the damage from the two attacks cannot be regenerated.




This probably is too odd for 3e, although it might be fun to try to make it work.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 18, 2008)

I think we should cut the stuff about attacking without a head. Also, I don't think we should give them a racial penalty when not climbing stone.


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## Big Mac (Jun 19, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> This probably is too odd for 3e, although it might be fun to try to make it work.




You might be right there...on both counts. I think we might need to look at each of these unusual things you have brought up one at a time.



			
				demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I think we should cut the stuff about attacking without a head.




I can buy a monster that can live (for a while) without its head, but I'd expect it to attempt to grab its head and retreat...or perhaps surrender on condition that it was allowed to get its head back. Abandoning the head just means starvation. (However, I think a creature needs to be able to communicate between its head and body to carry on fighting.)



			
				demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Also, I don't think we should give them a racial penalty when not climbing stone.




Well, Shade pointed out two things:



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Racial bonus on Hide checks made in rocky environments?




...and...



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Racial bonus on climb checks on stone/earth surfaces and racial penalty on other surfaces?




Maybe they could have the hide skill and the climbing skill and get a racial bonus to checks involving stone and earth environments.

Having a plus, with no minus, is a bit "Pathfinder"-ish (or 4th edition-ish), but I think it is similar to a dwarf's stone cunning. So I think it could work.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 19, 2008)

Big Mac said:
			
		

> Maybe they could have the hide skill and the climbing skill and get a racial bonus to checks involving stone and earth environments.
> 
> Having a plus, with no minus, is a bit "Pathfinder"-ish (or 4th edition-ish), but I think it is similar to a dwarf's stone cunning. So I think it could work.



That strikes me as somewhat disingenuous. Name a monster in the 3.5 Monster Manual with a racial penalty on a skill check. I think you'll find they're few and far between.


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## Big Mac (Jun 19, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> That strikes me as somewhat disingenuous. Name a monster in the 3.5 Monster Manual with a racial penalty on a skill check. I think you'll find they're few and far between.




I'll take you word for it on that. It sounds like you have checked them all.

Anyway, do you think a stat bonus for hiding and climbing in environments involving stone and earth would sort out this issue? If you do we can move on to the next problem. If you don't we will need to find another way to do it.


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## freyar (Jun 19, 2008)

I'll gloss over the posts between and just comment on the suggestions as I go through.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Racial bonus on Hide checks made in rocky environments?
> 
> Racial bonus on climb checks on stone/earth surfaces and racial penalty on other surfaces?



I'm kind of in favor of Big Mac's suggestion: racial bonus to Hide & Climb only in rocky environments.  We could also go with a +4 bonus to Climb increased to +8 in stone environments.



> Round to 100 feet for thrown rocks?



 Sounds good.



> Regeneration 1?



Lethal damage done by acid, yes.



> Damage reduction 10/bludgeoning?



Yes, and the number sounds right too.



> Anything special we want to do with that?



I think the consensus is no.



> Resistance to cold 10, electricity 10, fire 10?



Sure thing.



> This probably is too odd for 3e, although it might be fun to try to make it work.



Hmmm....

Thermal Instability (Ex): If a stone troll takes both fire and cold damage (beyond its resistance value) within a single round (counted from its turn in initiative order), the stone troll must make a Fortitude save (DC equal to 10+the total of the damage it suffered from the fire and cold) or be immediately destroyed, shattering into countless stone fragments.


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## Shade (Jun 19, 2008)

Updated with things that were agreed upon.

I like the thermal instability...any other thoughts?


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

Skills: Spot 13? or Climb 7, Spot 6?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 20, 2008)

Climb 7, Spot 6. Do we want to give them a racial bonus to hide in stony environments and/or camouflage like a gargoyle?


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

I could see that, but not as much.  Maybe +4?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 20, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I could see that, but not as much.  Maybe +4?



+4 works for me.


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## Shade (Jun 20, 2008)

Can we go +8 for Hide in rocky areas?  Otherwise, at Large with no ranks and no Dex modifier, it is already at a -4.  Since it used to be able to suprise 75% of the time, I'm thinking a total bonus of +4 (-4 size, +0 Dex, +8 racial) is closer to the orginal intent.   Thoughts?


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

That's ok with me, sure.  We can also swap some ranks into Hide; I don't see a big argument for Spot, in particular.


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## Shade (Jun 20, 2008)

Updated, swapping Spot for Hide.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Point Blank Shot, Quick Draw?
Environment looks good.
tribe (20-30 plus 1d4 7th-level shamans and one 10th-level chieftain)
CR 8?
3000 lb?  What are we filling in about the skin?  Gray and pebbly?
Giant and a pidgin form of Common.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2008)

Most of that looks good!



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> 3000 lb?




That may be a bit high, despite the pebbles in their skin.  The 17-foot cave giant only weighs 4,000 pounds, and the equal-height crystalline troll weighs only 600 pounds.  How about 1,000?



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> What are we filling in about the skin?  Gray and pebbly?




I left room for color variations, but I'm not sure if we need any.


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## Big Mac (Jun 23, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> I left room for color variations, but I'm not sure if we need any.




I would guess they would have a natural colour (if scrubbed) but that would be burried under a layer of dirt. If these guys pick up dirt an small stones in their skin, wouldn't colour vary according to terrain they live in?


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## freyar (Jun 24, 2008)

The lower weight is fine by me.  Per Big Mac's suggestion, why don't we say that their skin is perpetually covered by a layer of embedded dirt and pebbles?


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## Shade (Jun 24, 2008)

Updated.

Anything left?


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2008)

Looks done to me!


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2008)

*Gray Troll* 
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any subterranean
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary/tribe
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Q (D)
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 8 + 1
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4+5 (×2)/1d8+5
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Regeneration, see below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (9’)
MORALE: Champion (16)
XP VALUE: 6,000

Gray trolls are tall and gangly, and look much like normal trolls.  Their gray or gray-brown skin is dry and flaky, like old parchment.  The unruly mass of hair on the gray troll's head is gray or white. Deep in the sunken pits that are its eye sockets dance cold blue pinpoints of light.

Gray trolls possess excellent infravision, out to 150'. They are also able climbers (75% climbing chance).

Combat: Gray trolls are ferocious in battle, ripping into anything near them with their claw/claw/bite routine. Gray trolls are able to direct these attacks against up to three opponents.

The gray troll's saliva is highly toxic, and is delivered every time it successfully bites an opponent. The poison has an onset time of 20 minutes. The victim must then save vs. poison. If successful, there is no further effect. If failed, the victim slips into a coma, and will not awaken unless the poison is neutralized. After 36 hours, the victim must save again, but this time at a -2 penalty. If successful, the victim suffers 2d6 points of damage and then wakes from the coma. If unsuccessful, the victim dies.

Gray trolls prefer their natural attacks above ail others, never using weapons or missiles.

Thrice per week, a gray troll may assume gaseous form for no more than six rounds per use. It takes one full round to assume or exit gaseous form. This time does not count against the duration of the power. While changing, the troll can't defend itself, but once in gaseous form, it is immune to all but magical weapons and spells. While in gaseous form, the troll must remain within 5' of the ground and can move at twice its normal speed.

Gray trolls are extraordinary regenerators, regaining six hit points per round, beginning on the fourth round after being wounded. Gray trolls also are totally immune to damage by acid, cold, and electrical attacks.  However, fire damage cannot be regenerated, and because of its dry, paper-like skin, a gray troll takes double damage from fire attacks. They hate fire so much they will attack anyone bearing it, in hopes of extinguishing it as quickly as possible.

Thanks to its lanky, emaciated form, a gray trolls limbs are easily severed (on a natural attack roll of 18 to 20) by edged weapons.  Severed limbs will fight for up to five rounds after being cut off. If the battle ends before five rounds elapse, the limbs will rejoin the body. If not, the severed limb crumbles to dust.

Sunlight, like fire, is deadly to a gray troll. A gray troll will never willingly enter sunlight, but, if forced, will desperately try to flee and find a dark shelter, attacking anything in its way. While in sunlight, a gray troll fights as if blinded (-4 penalty on attacks, saves, and AC), and is "burned" by the sunlight for five hit points of damage (which cannot be regenerated) every round. If brought to zero hit points while in sunlight, a gray trolls body shrivels and crumbles into black and gray ashes, forever dead. Light other than sunlight has no effect on gray trolls.

Gray trolls are always ravenous and are distracted from pursuit by food dropped in their path 75% of the time.

Habitat/Society: Gray trolls are normal trolls that reached their present state by being totally level drained, usually by some form of undead. By processes not fully understood, the rush of negative energy from the attacker reacts strangely with the troll's natural regenerative ability.  Less than 5% of trolls so drained of life energy react in this odd way; the rest simply die.  Once drained, the troll lapses into a coma for 24 hours, during which time it isn't adversely affected by sunlight. When it awakens, it has become a gray troll, and all commensurate abilities and weaknesses are gained at that moment. It is not undead, however. As a gray troll, the beast has gained a strange link to the Negative Material plane. Due to this connection, a gray troll is rendered sterile and loses any spell-casting powers that it may have possessed. It lives for 25 to 75 years before it crumbles to dust.

After transforming, most gray trolls become solitary wanderers of the Underdark, full of hate and hunger, recklessly attacking any creatures they meet. Occasionally, they will find their old tribe or a new troll tribe, and gain leadership of it.

Ecology: Gray trolls attack, kill, and eat any creature they come across. Gray trolls live only to feed and destroy. Though they may seem to possess undead-like abilities, they are alive, and cannot be turned or controlled by clerics.  

The dust of a gray troll is useful in healing and resistance magics (acid, cold, electricity) and can bring quite a hefty price due to its extreme rarity.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #199 (1993).


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2008)

Xtreme negative energy trolls! 

Given that these are just normal trolls that have been level drained but survived, should the stats be similar to the regular troll?  (Though these do have 2 more HD than the 3e troll; how many did the 2e troll have?)  Regular trolls have Str 23, Dex 14, Con 23, Int 6, Wis 9, Cha 6, so how about 	Str 25, Dex 14, Con 21, Int 6, Wis 9, Cha 6?  Con has suffered from the energy drain, but they gain strength from the Negative Energy?


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2008)

Normal trolls had 6+6 HD in 2e.

Grays have 2 better AC than 2e trolls.

Grays regenerate 3 more hp/round.

I agree with your ability score assessment, and will Homebrew them soon.


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2008)

Ok, let's keep the 8HD (and lower Con based on the lower bonus hp).  An extra +2 to natural armor for a total of +7 makes sense (and gets AC 18, which matches the original).  Regeneration is 6 based on the original text, but we can up that based on the 2e comparison (3e trolls get 5).  Fire deals normal damage.  Also add vulnerability to fire?


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

How about doubling the stanard troll's regeneration (10 points), since it was double before?

Let's keep Str the same since their 2e damage output was lower than a standard troll (but not much).



> Gray trolls possess excellent infravision, out to 150'. They are also able climbers (75% climbing chance).




Darkvision 150 ft. and racial bonus on Climb checks?  



> The gray troll's saliva is highly toxic, and is delivered every time it successfully bites an opponent. The poison has an onset time of 20 minutes. The victim must then save vs. poison. If successful, there is no further effect. If failed, the victim slips into a coma, and will not awaken unless the poison is neutralized. After 36 hours, the victim must save again, but this time at a -2 penalty. If successful, the victim suffers 2d6 points of damage and then wakes from the coma. If unsuccessful, the victim dies.




Turn this into actual poison that behaves more like others, or make it a unique Ex ability?



> Thrice per week, a gray troll may assume gaseous form for no more than six rounds per use. It takes one full round to assume or exit gaseous form. This time does not count against the duration of the power. While changing, the troll can't defend itself, but once in gaseous form, it is immune to all but magical weapons and spells. While in gaseous form, the troll must remain within 5' of the ground and can move at twice its normal speed.




Modifying the vampire's ability....

Gaseous Form (Su): Three times per week, as a full-round action, a gray troll can assume gaseous form as the spell (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous for six rounds and has a fly speed of 60 feet with perfect maneuverability.



> Gray trolls also are totally immune to damage by acid, cold, and electrical attacks.




Immunity to acid, cold, and electricity?



> Thanks to its lanky, emaciated form, a gray trolls limbs are easily severed (on a natural attack roll of 18 to 20) by edged weapons. Severed limbs will fight for up to five rounds after being cut off. If the battle ends before five rounds elapse, the limbs will rejoin the body. If not, the severed limb crumbles to dust.




Didn't we do something similar with a recent conversion?


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> How about doubling the stanard troll's regeneration (10 points), since it was double before?
> 
> Let's keep Str the same since their 2e damage output was lower than a standard troll (but not much).



Both sound good.



> Darkvision 150 ft. and racial bonus on Climb checks?



Yes to both, maybe +8 Climb bonus?



> Turn this into actual poison that behaves more like others, or make it a unique Ex ability?



I'll think about that one...



> Modifying the vampire's ability....
> 
> Gaseous Form (Su): Three times per week, as a full-round action, a gray troll can assume gaseous form as the spell (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous for six rounds and has a fly speed of 60 feet with perfect maneuverability.



Looks good. 


> Immunity to acid, cold, and electricity?



Yes, and vulnerability to fire as I mentioned  above?


> Didn't we do something similar with a recent conversion?



Was it the troll mutate?


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## Shade (Jun 27, 2008)

Updated.

Good memory!

Severed Limb Attack (Ex): If one of a troll mutate's arms is severed (such as via the impeded fortification ability, above), the arm attacks the troll mutate's enemies with its usual attack bonus and damage, although it takes penalties for attacking while prone. The severed arm acts on the troll mutate's initiative and remains animate for 2d4 rounds if it is not reattached to the troll mutate.


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2008)

Let's add it!  Did we have rules for severing limbs in the troll mutate?  The gray troll has 







> Thanks to its lanky, emaciated form, a gray trolls limbs are easily severed (on a natural attack roll of 18 to 20) by edged weapons. Severed limbs will fight for up to five rounds after being cut off. If the battle ends before five rounds elapse, the limbs will rejoin the body. If not, the severed limb crumbles to dust.



 which would suggest severing an arm on a critical.



> Sunlight, like fire, is deadly to a gray troll. A gray troll will never willingly enter sunlight, but, if forced, will desperately try to flee and find a dark shelter, attacking anything in its way. While in sunlight, a gray troll fights as if blinded (-4 penalty on attacks, saves, and AC), and is "burned" by the sunlight for five hit points of damage (which cannot be regenerated) every round. If brought to zero hit points while in sunlight, a gray trolls body shrivels and crumbles into black and gray ashes, forever dead. Light other than sunlight has no effect on gray trolls.



  Like a vampire's vulnerability to sunlight or just a direct conversion (5 hp per round lethal damage)?


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## Big Mac (Jun 28, 2008)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Anything left?




It looks good, but this sentence looks wrong: "Stone trolls are not bothered sunlight like many other trolls."

This could be *taken* to mean "Stone trolls, like many other trolls, are not bothered by sunlight." I know that is not what you mean, but I think the sentence needs a tweak.

I would go for: "Stone trolls are not bothered sunlight like many other trolls are."

Or: "Stone trolls are not bothered by sunlight unlike many other trolls."

Or reverse the two bits to get: "Unlike many other trolls, stone trolls are not bothered by sunlight."

I think the third version would be the one that would work best for non-native speakers.


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## freyar (Jun 29, 2008)

Yeah, let's go for the last version.


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## Big Mac (Jun 29, 2008)

Shade said:


> Turn this into actual poison that behaves more like others, or make it a unique Ex ability?




I don't like the part of the poison that kills people. I would rather have a poison that puts people into a coma. If they don't wake up they would eventually starve to death anyway.

The other ability seems to be "inherited" from an undead ability. Is there an undead poison that knocks people out?

Given the Gray Troll's knockout bite attack, do you think it should bite people, retreat and then stalk them for 20 minutes to see if the knockout poison kicks in? A monster that runs in and hit's a PC's cohort with a KO bite and then tries to steal the unconsious victim later on could be quite fun.



Shade said:


> Modifying the vampire's ability....
> 
> Gaseous Form (Su): Three times per week, as a full-round action, a gray troll can assume gaseous form as the spell (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous for six rounds and has a fly speed of 60 feet with perfect maneuverability.




Don't forget that the original couldn't get more that 5ft from the ground. Taking that restriction out could allow them to fly over castle walls or across the Grand Canyon and so on.



freyar said:


> Shade said:
> 
> 
> > Immunity to acid, cold, and electricity?
> ...




I agree with freyar. The vulnerability to fire seems to be similar to the vulnerability to light.

Are you going to keep its "attack people with fire first" strategy? I wonder if the creature should attempt any fire-fighting tactics. It has a low intellegence, so I suppose it wouldn't walk around with a bucket of water and a blanket to throw on a fire.



Shade said:


> Severed Limb Attack (Ex): If one of a troll mutate's arms is severed (such as via the impeded fortification ability, above), the arm attacks the troll mutate's enemies with its usual attack bonus and damage, although it takes penalties for attacking while prone. The severed arm acts on the troll mutate's initiative and remains animate for 2d4 rounds if it is not reattached to the troll mutate.




I'm not a big fan of severed arms that fight by themselves, but this does the job fairly well. The end would need to change to: "...remains animate for 2d4 rounds and then disintegrates if it is not reattached..."


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2008)

Big Mac said:


> I don't like the part of the poison that kills people. I would rather have a poison that puts people into a coma. If they don't wake up they would eventually starve to death anyway.
> 
> The other ability seems to be "inherited" from an undead ability. Is there an undead poison that knocks people out?
> 
> Given the Gray Troll's knockout bite attack, do you think it should bite people, retreat and then stalk them for 20 minutes to see if the knockout poison kicks in? A monster that runs in and hit's a PC's cohort with a KO bite and then tries to steal the unconsious victim later on could be quite fun.




I'm inclined to make this a regular poison (though the 20 minute stalking idea is quite amusing).   If so, I'd maybe start with something like

Poison - Injury, Fort DC X negates, initial damage nauseated for 2d4 rounds, secondary damage unconscious for 1d4 hours.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

Thoughts?


> Don't forget that the original couldn't get more that 5ft from the ground. Taking that restriction out could allow them to fly over castle walls or across the Grand Canyon and so on.



I think the 6 round limit will keep it pretty close to the ground most of the time.



> I agree with freyar. The vulnerability to fire seems to be similar to the vulnerability to light.
> 
> Are you going to keep its "attack people with fire first" strategy? I wonder if the creature should attempt any fire-fighting tactics. It has a low intellegence, so I suppose it wouldn't walk around with a bucket of water and a blanket to throw on a fire.



I think that strategy is reasonable for these things, and the lack of fire-fighting tools is also probably about right for a troll.

How did you want to handle light vulnerability?  I'm leaning toward something similar to immersing a vampire in water.



> I'm not a big fan of severed arms that fight by themselves, but this does the job fairly well. The end would need to change to: "...remains animate for 2d4 rounds and then disintegrates if it is not reattached..."




Hehe, I think the remaining animate takes care of that.  Afterwards, it just dies.


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2008)

I fixed the stone troll with sentence #3...nice catch!

I'll look over the other discussion shortly.


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2008)

freyar said:


> I'm inclined to make this a regular poison (though the 20 minute stalking idea is quite amusing).   If so, I'd maybe start with something like
> 
> Poison - Injury, Fort DC X negates, initial damage nauseated for 2d4 rounds, secondary damage unconscious for 1d4 hours.  The save DC is Constitution-based.




I like it.



freyar said:


> I think the 6 round limit will keep it pretty close to the ground most of the time.




Agreed.  Besides, it could just stay within 5 feet of the wall or canyon sides to cross the examples, right?  



freyar said:


> How did you want to handle light vulnerability?  I'm leaning toward something similar to immersing a vampire in water.




How's this?  I combined the drow's light blindness with the vampire's water immersion and through in some of the original flavor text...

Light Sensitivity (Ex):  Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds a gray troll for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, it is dazzled as long as it remains in the affected area.  A gray troll exposed to natural sunlight robs it of one-third of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the third round.  A gray troll cannot regenerate damage caused by sunlight, and upon reaching 0 hit points it crumbles into black and gray ashes.



freyar said:


> Hehe, I think the remaining animate takes care of that.  Afterwards, it just dies.




Indeed.


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## freyar (Jul 1, 2008)

I like the light sensitivity, though maybe it should be light vulnerability or something since it actually takes damage.

On the homebrews page, there's still a "troll mutate" in the severed limb attack.

Any other SAs for this, or should we move on to skills and feats?


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2008)

Light vulnerability it is, and the leftover "mutate" removed.

Updated.

The only other special ability we might need after re-reading the original text is some sort of "healed by negative energy/harmed by positive energy" bit, if we want to go that route.

Otherwise, here are the feats and skills:

Skills: 11
Trolls split ranks between Listen and Spot.

Feats: 3
Trolls have Alertness, Iron Will, Track.

Since these are essentially still trolls, we may not need to change the feats and skills.


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## Big Mac (Jul 2, 2008)

freyar said:


> I'm inclined to make this a regular poison (though the 20 minute stalking idea is quite amusing).   If so, I'd maybe start with something like
> 
> Poison - Injury, Fort DC X negates, initial damage nauseated for 2d4 rounds, secondary damage unconscious for 1d4 hours.  The save DC is Constitution-based.
> 
> Thoughts?




Instant poison is a change, but it is a change for the better. Monster abilities should mostly happen during the combat (or in front of the players).



freyar said:


> I think the 6 round limit will keep it pretty close to the ground most of the time.




I must have missed that limit. If this creature lives underground vertical flight won't come into play too much. And cutting out the height limit means less things for the GM to remember.



freyar said:


> Hehe, I think the remaining animate takes care of that.  Afterwards, it just dies.




The crumbling to dust thing is a bit weird as that evokes some vampire films I've seen. (See also my reply to Shade below.)



Shade said:


> How's this?  I combined the drow's light blindness with the vampire's water immersion and through in some of the original flavor text...
> 
> Light Sensitivity (Ex):  Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds a gray troll for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, it is dazzled as long as it remains in the affected area.  A gray troll exposed to natural sunlight robs it of one-third of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the third round.  A gray troll cannot regenerate damage caused by sunlight, and upon reaching 0 hit points it crumbles into black and gray ashes.




It does seem very fast, but I really like this.

One point though. If the gray troll crumbles and turns to dust in sunlight, should they also crumble to dust if they die normally? And should severed limbs crumble to dust?



Shade said:


> The only other special ability we might need after re-reading the original text is some sort of "healed by negative energy/harmed by positive energy" bit, if we want to go that route.




These creatures are *already* bordering on being undead. Would pushing it further in that direction make for a more interesting creature? (How many undead trolls are there?)



Shade said:


> Otherwise, here are the feats and skills:
> 
> Skills: 11
> Trolls split ranks between Listen and Spot.
> ...




I think that everything should be as per a standard troll, unless there is a reason for it to learn additional skills or feats. This has to be a regular troll that got transformed.

Considering what this is, I'm tempted to suggest gray troll should be a template that can be applied to any troll.


----------



## Shade (Jul 2, 2008)

Big Mac said:


> One point though. If the gray troll crumbles and turns to dust in sunlight, should they also crumble to dust if they die normally? And should severed limbs crumble to dust?




I'm guessing it was based off the mythological trolls that were petrified in sunlight, so slaying through normal means wouldn't necessarily turn them to crumble to dust.   I'm fine with either approach, though.



Big Mac said:


> These creatures are *already* bordering on being undead. Would pushing it further in that direction make for a more interesting creature? (How many undead trolls are there?)




I think it might make them more interesting to give negative energy affinity.

Negative Energy Affinity (Ex): A gray troll is affected by cure spells and inflict spells as if it were an undead creature.



Big Mac said:


> Considering what this is, I'm tempted to suggest gray troll should be a template that can be applied to any troll.




It is tempting, but I'd be content to mention in the flavor text that variant trolls may produce different types of gray trolls, but to date none have been encountered.  

Updated.  Challenge Rating: 8?  They seem on par with crystalline and cave trolls.

Anything else?


----------



## freyar (Jul 2, 2008)

I like it, and I think CR 8 is fair.  I think it's done!


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2008)

Great!

While looking up one of the others on the list, I found one we didn't have listed:

*Skovtrolde*
The skovtrolde are neutral-evil wood trolls found in dark forests. Their statistics are the same as for normal trolls, except for these changes: 
#AP 1-20; HD 8; THAC0 13; SZ L (8' tall). They have low to average intelligence and often make their lairs in trees. Some skovtrolde (30%) carry crude long bows; their arrows are -2 to hit and do 1-4 points damage. 

These wood trolls have skin that is dark-green and covered with brown blotches. It is 85% likely that the skovtrolde will not be seen in a vegetated environment. If 15 or more trolls are present, they sure type E.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #158 (1990).

This one should be fairly easy.  Advance a troll to 8 HD, improve Int to 8-11, change alignment and environment, give 'em longbows, and add a racial bonus on Hide checks.


----------



## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

Decrease Dex due to the -2 to hit on arrows?  Or were trolls "less dexterous" back then?


----------



## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

I think the -2 is due to the "crudeness" of their longbows.

I'd prefer not to penalize Dex since they're ranged attackers.


----------



## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

Just remembered: we need to put something in the gray troll about when its limbs get severed.  This was part of impeded fortification for the troll mutate.  Here's my suggestion for the gray troll:

Brittle Flesh (Ex): The flesh of a gray troll is crackly and brittle due to its exposure to negative energy.  When an opponent scores a successful critical hit against a gray troll, there is a 50% chance that one of the trolls arms (or other limbs) will be severed from the troll.


----------



## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

Let's see if replying to two different posts gets past the automerge...

Should we give the skovtroldes a special kind of longbow for the penalty, or do you want to ditch that?


----------



## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

Good suggestion with brittle flesh.

For the longbows, I'm fine with dropping the penalty, as other "dumb brutes" with weapons described as crude don't suffer penalties.


----------



## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

Well, I guess the skovtroldes are basically done once you get a chance to homebrew them.


----------



## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I used the same skill bonuses as the forest landwyrm.  Does that work?

They have 22 skill ranks.  Mix between Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot?

Do we want to swap out any of the standard troll feats for ranged feats?


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

Racial skill bonuses work.  Ranks: Hide 6, Listen 5, Move Silently 6, Spot 5?  Or we could go with Survival instead of Move Silently.  

Let's do Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot rather than Iron Will and Track (alternately, if we put ranks in Survival, keep Track and drop Alertness).


----------



## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

Updated.

Look good?


----------



## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

Looks good to me.  Pretty easy!


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## Big Mac (Jul 5, 2008)

freyar said:


> Looks good to me.  Pretty easy!




Wow. I blinked and I missed it. Nice job anyway.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 5, 2008)

Um... looks good! I totally missed it, but looks good!


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2008)

*Ragnhilder*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Rocky or mountainous terrain
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Group
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low
TREASURE: Q (C)
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-8
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 4
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1-6/1-8 or by weapon type
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Hurl rocks
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Regeneration, camouflage
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (9’ tall)
MORALE: Elite (14)
XP VALUE: 420

The ragnhilder are as large as normal trolls but are weaker (18 strength, +2 damage) and sometimes use hand-to-hand weapons. Their favorite form of attack is to hurl 5-10 lb. rocks out to 60', doing 1-6 hp damage. The ragnhilder have stone-gray hides that conceal them 60% of the time in rocky terrain.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #158 (1990).


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2008)

Drop a troll to 4 HD, lower Str to 18, add rock throwing and camouflage?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 8, 2008)

Sounds good to me!


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Should we give them rock catching as well?

What weapon shall we provide in the stat block?

Skills: 7
Put it all in Hide, or give them Listen and Spot like normal trolls?

Feats: 2
Alertness, Point Blank Shot?

Do we want to lower natural armor by 3 to get the converted AC of 13?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 8, 2008)

Let's keep the natural armor where it is. Let's not give them rock catching.

...should they really have rend? They seem to me like they rely more on weaponry. 

Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot for feats. Greatclub for the weapon?


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2008)

I'd also like to drop rend.  For the weapon, is there anything swordish but primitive to use rather than greatclub?  Somehow that's the image I get from these, though I have to confess I don't entirely know why.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 9, 2008)

Macahuitls!


----------



## Shade (Jul 9, 2008)

From another thread...



			
				demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> The only thing I'm finding for "maca" is a plant. Maca is probably short for macahuitl, an obsidian-edged club used in lieu of a sword in pre-ironworking Central and South America. They appear in MMIV as two-handed martial weapons that do 1d10 x2 bludgeoning and piercing damage, although that should probably be bludgeoning and slashing.
> 
> Which sucks.
> 
> I say make them the equivalent of a greatsword, which is how they were used. 2 handed, martial, 2d6 19-20x2.




So, essentially give them greatswords, but refer to them as macahuitls on the attack lines and indicated in the flavor text that they are obsidian-edged clubs that functions in all other ways like a greatsword?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 9, 2008)

Sure!


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2008)

Updated.

CR 3?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 9, 2008)

With regeneration and all those hit points, I'd say CR 4.


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2008)

Fair enough!


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2008)

*Troll, Snow*
Climate/Terrain: Any arctic or subarctic land
Freq: Rare
Org: Solitary/pair
Activity Cycle: Night
Diet: Carnivore
Int: Low (5-7)
Treasure: Nil
Alignment: CE
# App: 1-2
AC: 4
Movement: 9
Hit Dice: 7
THAC0: 13
# AT: 2
Dmg/Att: 1d8+2 (x2)
SA: See below
SD: regeneration, resist cold
MR: nil
Size: L (8' tall)
Morale: Elite (13-14)
XP Value: 1,400

Slightly smaller and broader than its fearsome cousin, the snow troll is still a frightening sight.  It closely resembles the common troll, but the snow troll's skin is much paler, and large parts of its body are covered with white fur.  The snow troll's broad, furry feet allow it to move quickly over snow and rock, and its strong claws and arms allow it to climb as well as any troll.

Some snow trolls speak a few words of Common, but most only know their own high-pitched, sing-song tongue.  The snow troll language has 20 words for "prey."

Combat: Unlike the common troll, the snow troll attacks with its two clawed hands only, but like the troll, the snow troll can engage two opponents at once.  It also possesses the ability to regenerate 3 hit points per round, starting three rounds after first being wounded, and the snow troll is extremely resistant to cold and cold-based attacks.  If a saving throw is successfully made, the snow troll suffers no effects from any cold-based attack form, and it suffers just half damage if the saving throw is failed.  Conversely, the snow troll is particularly vulnerable to fire and suffers double damage from any fire-based attacks, while normal damage is sustatined if the saving throw succeeds.

The snow troll is a formidable oponent, who will fight to the death at all times.  It is fearless enough to attack small villages single-handed, but its preferred method of attack is to occupy a cave or similar dwelling along a well-traveled route, covering the entrance with snow or rock.  The snow troll becomes intimately acquainted with the area around its home and is able to detect its prey in a number of ways: it can pick up minute changes in the surface tension of the snow surrounding its lair, it can detect sound vibrations caused by movement over rock or sand, or it can use (like all trolls) its acute sense of smell to sniff out its prey.  In any event, the snow troll waits until it detects prey outside its lair, whereupon it bursts forth, surprising its victims with the ferocious nature of its attacks.  A snow troll has a 6-in-10 chance of surprising prey; and is itself surprised only on a 1 in its home territory.

Habitat/Society:  The snow troll is a solitary creature, leaving its territory only once every three years, during the mating season.  Each third year, dozens or even hundreds of snow trolls gather in the mid-winter darkness to mate in dark mountain valleys unknown to other creatures.  The males abandon their mates shortly thereafter, leaving them to raise their young alone; pairs are always a mother and her offspring.

A snow troll's clawed hands helps it climb glaciers, snowy mountains, and treacherous ice floes.  A female snow troll seeks solitude in high places or on icebergs when she is about to bear young, and this territory gives her the same surprise bonuses as her home territory.  Young snow trolls grow to full maturity within a year.  They are reputed to be the most dangerous because they eat twice as much as other snow trolls.

Adapted well to the harsh conditions it prefers, the snow troll can live 120 years.  It does not work with other races, as it finds all humans and nonhumans equally tasty.

Ecology:  The snow troll is a rapacious predator, able to pursue prey over difficult terrain and, unlike its temperate cousins, patient enough to wait hours for prey to wander into striking range.  It establishes and maintains a territory covering hundreds of square miles, and it will fight and kill polar bears, humans, and other competitors for food.  White dragons are their only natural predators.  Snow trolls and ice trolls are natural rivals who fight endlessly over territory.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume One (1994).


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2008)

Start with troll, remove bite attack.  Evasion or Imp Evasion vs cold attacks (which would be nonlethal for it anyway), vulnerability to fire.  Sounds like they have tremorsense and scent.  Probably bonuses to Hide, Listen, and Spot.  Looks like most of the rest is just flavor.


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2008)

I also think they should have bonuses to Climb or a climb speed, as well as something like one of these:

Surefooted (Ex): Brantas ignore all movement penalties associated with snow on the ground. They also receive a +4 racial bonus on Balance checks when walking on ice or snow.

Icewalking (Ex): This ability works like the spider climb spell, but the surfaces the dragon climbs must be icy. It is always in effect.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 10, 2008)

I like sure footed. I'd get rid of the evasion vs. cold thing and just give them the cold subtype or cold resistance.


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I like sure footed. I'd get rid of the evasion vs. cold thing and just give them the cold subtype or cold resistance.



Fair enough.  Cold subtype would be efficient, since it would take care of vulnerability to fire, too.


----------



## Shade (Jul 10, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

They also have 1 more HD than normal trolls.  

Thoughts on racial bonus on Climb checks vs. climb speed?

Skills: 10
Normal trolls have Listen and Spot.  I could see Hide and Survival for these fellows as well.

Feats: 3
Normal trolls have Alertness, Iron Will, and Track


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 10, 2008)

I like your skill suggestions.

Frankly, I say we boost the Wisdom on these guys. Give them Stealthy instead of Alertness.


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## freyar (Jul 11, 2008)

I'll second everything.


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## Shade (Jul 11, 2008)

Updated.

They are a foot shorter, but broader, than normal trolls, which weigh 500 pounds.  Stick with the same weight?

CR 6?  They are on par with a desert troll, maybe slightly better.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 11, 2008)

Same weight, CR 6.


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## freyar (Jul 11, 2008)

Well, that was fast!


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## Shade (Jul 11, 2008)

Do we want to do anything with these?

*Bjerg-trolde*
The bjerg-trolde's abilities are identical to those of an ordinary troll. However, it lives in desert and hilly regions, and its hide is brown to tan.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #158 (1990).


Obviously, that alone isn't worthy of conversion.  However, we might be able to make something cool out of it.

For inspiration:

BJERGFOLK, BJERGTROLDE:  Old Norse, hill folk. This race dwelt inside hill mounds and hillocks and is usually considered confluent with Dwarf, Troll, or Trold (which,see). Thesefolk were ruled by kings and sometimes lived in great societies butsometimes dwelt apart as single families. They were regarded as extremelyrick, and on festive occasions, when their hill-tops were raised upon redpillars, people observed hill interiors furnished in crystal and gold and chestsfull of valuables. They might be obliging and neighbourly, but had a weaknessfor thievry, which extended to mortal women and children. "They marry andhave children, bake and brew", but have an intense dislike for noise, and weresupposedly driven out of Scandinavia by the sound of church bells  (http://rodneymackay.com/writing/pdf files/worldmyth.pdf)

"The latter, on the contrary, who were 'classified after their abodes in air, sea, and earth, were not regarded in so favourable a light. It was believed that they, particularly the land ones, the ðaiµoνes  επίχθόνίοί of the Greeks, constantly and on all occasions sought to torment or injure mankind, and that they had their dwelling partly on the earth in great thick woods, whence came the name Skovtrolde8 (Wood Trolls), or in other desert and lonely places, partly in and under the ground, or in rocks and hills; these last were called Bjerg-Trolde (Hill Trolls): to the first, on account of their different nature, was given the name of Dverge (Dwarfs), and Alve, whence the word Ellefolk, which is still in the Danish language. These Dæmons, particularly the underground ones, were called Svartálfar, that is Black Spirits, and inasmuch as they did mischief, Trolls." (http://www.celtic-twilight.com/otherworld/fairy_mythology/eddas_and_sagas.htm)

BERG PEOPLE
European Folklore
A.K.A. Berg Dwarfs, Bjerg-Trolde, Skovtrodle (wood troll)
A type of Dwarf or Troll

They are a species of troll often appearing in the shape of a toad. There is a well-known tale of a mid-wife who, on her way home from a successful human delivery, notices in the road a fat toad with white stripes and remarks to it that she will gladly deliver it too. A fortnight later, on hearing a cart draw up outside her door, she sees a little man with a long white beard. He entreats her to attend to his wife just as she had promised. This the midwife does, but she cannot help remarking on their poor abode. The little new mother tells the midwife to anoint her eyes with the liquid nearby, whereupon a vision of great beauty and wealth was revealed to her, and she receives much gold for her service. The little mother then tells her to jump from the cart when she reaches the boggy ground, otherwise the little man will not take the midwife home and may dispose of her. In fear she does as she was told and arrives home safely with her reward. Some time later in the market place she recognizes and greets the little old man who immediately pokes her eyes out. 
(http://myths.freshcaffeine.com/2006/04/berg_people.html)


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## freyar (Jul 11, 2008)

Trolls with a shape changing ability, maybe?


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2008)

Alternate forms of dwarf and toad?


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## freyar (Jul 14, 2008)

Sounds reasonable.  Maybe also vulnerability to sonic (or sonic deals normal damage) since they don't like noise?


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2008)

I like the idea of sonic dealing normal damage.  Maybe in place of acid, since acid is often associated with earth, and they are "earthy" trolls?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2008)

Agreed to alternate form and to the sonic weakness.


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

They are rumored to be extremely rich, so double standard treasure?

Bjerg-troldes speak Common, Dwarven, and Giant?

Do we want to change any of the standard troll stats?  Higher Cha maybe?  Drop rend?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2008)

Agreed to the high Charisma and treasure. Not sure if we should drop rend. We could change claws to slams and go for pummel?


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Jul 15, 2008)

Since they like to play tricks, maybe we can boost their Intelligence?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 15, 2008)

Yeah, boosting their mental abilities seems wise.


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2008)

Definitely keep rend or else pummel.

Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10?


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2008)

Updated with the improved mental scores.

Let's keep claws/rend, unless there's a strong desire for slam/pummel.

Skills: 18
A high Bluff seems like a good idea.  Maybe Sleight of Hand?  Disguise?

Feats:  Swap Alertness for Skill Focus (Bluff)?  Replace Track with something else tricksy?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 15, 2008)

Alertness for Persuasive. Track, I think, should stay.


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2008)

I like Persuasive & Track.  For skills, I like Bluff and Disguise at 9 each, though I could see adding Sleight of Hand and going 6 ranks each.


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2008)

Updated.

Anything else?


----------



## freyar (Jul 15, 2008)

Another one done!


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 16, 2008)

Agreed. It's done!


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2008)

I believe that finishes off the trolls.

*Giant, Bosk*

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Bogs, marshes
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Tribal
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Plants
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: M, Qx 10
ALIGNMENT: Neutral (evil)
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 18
HIT DICE: 14+3
THACO: 7
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d8+8 or by weapon 1d12+8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spit
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: H (19' tall)
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE:
Infant: -4 HD 2,000
Juvenile: -2 HD 3,000
Adult: 5,000

Bosk giants are selfish, greedy, and territorial. They are quick to attack any creature that encroaches upon what they consider their land-even if those creatures appear more powerful and deadly.

Bosk giants make decisions quickly, never dwelling upon problems or situations. Considered stupid by their relatives the swamp giants, bosk giants have never been known to analyze a predicament or spend any amount of time thinking about anything.

Despite that, the giants seem to possess a natural cunning that is terrible and ruthless.

Bosk giants are the tallest giants on Chislev. Their features are handsome, almost as if they were sculpted by a fine craftsman, and their skin is thick, giving them a natural armor class of 4. They are muscular and have amazingly broad shoulders, and their long athletic legs carry them quickly over the terrain. The most striking features of bosk giants are their skin and hair. Their skin is green, ranging in color from a pale olive to almost black, and their green hair grows in clumps like grass. They wear little clothing, usually animal hides sewn together. Their coloration makes it easy for them to blend in with their surroundings. They gain a bonus of +3 to surprise, and in return they have a -3 to be surprised.

Combat: Unlike other giants, bosks do not hurl weapons. They simply charge into melee, swinging.either their great fists or large clubs fashioned from tree limbs. The more intelligent of the giants shave the limbs so they have sharp points and deliver an additional 2 points of damage. They have no combat strategy.

The giants have a special attack. Bosks can swallow great amounts of swamp water, which they can spit at their targets in a stream 12' long by 6" wide. The fetid water is combined with the gastric juices of the giant, causing Id8 points of damage. Further, all those struck by bosk spit must save vs. paralyzation or be dazed for 1 d6 rounds. Bosk giants who have swallowed swamp water can spit twice before needing to fill up again.

Habitat/Society: Bosks live in simple villages of crudely constructed huts made of rotted trees. Most of the villages are located in a bog-with standing water everywhere. Each village has a loose form of government. The strongest giant is the leader and his orders, which tend to be few, are followed without question.

When encountered in their lair, there are 4d4+10 giants, and half of these are adults. The remainder are infants and juveniles. An infant has 10 HD and has only a +4 damage bonus. A juvenile at 12 HD has a +6 damage bonus. If a village is threatened, infants and juveniles fight side by side with their parents.

Ecology: Bosk giants live where there is heat, vegetation, and lots of water. They prefer fetid water, as they enjoy its taste and smell, but they settle for pure water if nothing else is available.

Bosk giants eat only plants, preferring sodden roots and overripe fruits. Nuts are a delicacy and a potential bribe. The giants have been known to raid nearby human tribes for fun, to acquire human servants, and to keep other human tribes in fear of them.

Originally appeared in SJR7 - Krynnspace (1993).


----------



## freyar (Jul 16, 2008)

I guess these would still be Huge.   Going just by the numbers in the original, we probably have Str 26-27, reasonable Dex/init, decent Con.  For mental stats, I'd go with Int 5, Wis 14ish, Cha 8-9 due to the "natural cunning."


----------



## Big Mac (Jul 17, 2008)

Shade said:


> I believe that finishes off the trolls.




Newsflash: ENWorld moderator finishes off trolls.



Shade said:


> *Giant, Bosk*




Yay!

Are we doing different stats for the Infant Bosk Giant, Juvenile Bosk Giant and Adult Bosk Giant? They do have these differences: "An infant has 10 HD and has only a +4 damage bonus. A juvenile at 12 HD has a +6 damage bonus."

I think these guys need a sidebar. Chislev is a Dragonlance god of nature (and druids). I think Bosk Giants would worship Zeboim (the evil DL nature god).

These giants are not "spacefarers", so don't actually need any of the special stuff from Beyond the Moons.



Shade said:


> DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d8+8 or by weapon 1d12+8




...and...



Shade said:


> The more intelligent of the giants shave the limbs so they have sharp points and deliver an additional 2 points of damage.




That "Shaved Club" seems to be treated as a +2 masterworked weapon. Or do we call it a "spiked club"?



Shade said:


> SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spit




...and...



Shade said:


> Bosks can swallow great amounts of swamp water, which they can spit at their targets in a stream 12' long by 6" wide. The fetid water is combined with the gastric juices of the giant, causing Id8 points of damage. Further, all those struck by bosk spit must save vs. paralyzation or be dazed for 1 d6 rounds. Bosk giants who have swallowed swamp water can spit twice before needing to fill up again.




*BTW:* "Id8 points of damage" should be "1d8".

This *Spit Attack (Ex)* ability is the core element of this creature. This is the one thing we need to make sure we have right.

I'd say the gastric juices cause 1d8 points of *acid* damage.

Should the "dazed" thing only apply to opponants with eyes?

Drinking swamp water during a combat would entail bending over and would create an attack of opportunity. Should it be a full round action? (Or should we just say a Bosk Giant can use his Spit Attack twice per combat and assume that drinking takes time?)

Should we give them Point Blank Shot (Spit) and/or some other similar feats to back up this ability?

I think that a Bosk Giant who leaves his swamp should loose his Spit Attack.



Shade said:


> SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below




These defenses are not actually so special.



Shade said:


> Their features are handsome, almost as if they were sculpted by a fine craftsman, and their skin is thick, giving them a natural armor class of 4.




Do they get a Charisma bonus from the handsome features?

Looks like they are getting something like a +6 from natural armor.



Shade said:


> They are muscular and have amazingly broad shoulders, and their long athletic legs carry them quickly over the terrain.




Is this just flavor text? Should the muscules provide a Strength bonus? Do they have longer than *normal* legs that give them a bonus to movement rate? 



Shade said:


> The most striking features of bosk giants are their skin and hair. Their skin is green, ranging in color from a pale olive to almost black, and their green hair grows in clumps like grass. They wear little clothing, usually animal hides sewn together. Their coloration makes it easy for them to blend in with their surroundings. They gain a bonus of +3 to surprise, and in return they have a -3 to be surprised.




Should we switch this for a hide bonus (or even Hide in Plain Sight) that only works in bogs, marshes, grassland and similar environments.



Shade said:


> Bosk giants are the tallest giants on Chislev.




Hmm. This is where I'm tempted to ask Echohawk for a list of all giants less that 19 foot tall (for my Krynnspace Project).  



Shade said:


> Combat: Unlike other giants, bosks do not hurl weapons.




No rock throwing - no rock catching. (Just spitting - expert spitting, I'd say.)



Shade said:


> Habitat/Society: Bosks live in simple villages of crudely constructed huts made of rotted trees. Most of the villages are located in a bog-with standing water everywhere. Each village has a loose form of government. The strongest giant is the leader and his orders, which tend to be few, are followed without question.




This is mostly fluff, but do we need to mention the maxed out Strength of a Villiage Leader?



Shade said:


> When encountered in their lair, there are 4d4+10 giants, and half of these are adults. The remainder are infants and juveniles. <snip> If a village is threatened, infants and juveniles fight side by side with their parents.




This can go into the Organisation bit. Maybe something like:
Solitary, Raiding party 2-3 or Village 2d4+5 Adults, 1d4+3 Juveniles and 1d4+2 Infants.



Shade said:


> Ecology: Bosk giants live where there is heat, vegetation, and lots of water. They prefer fetid water, as they enjoy its taste and smell, but they settle for pure water if nothing else is available.




More fluff.



Shade said:


> Bosk giants eat only plants, preferring sodden roots and overripe fruits. Nuts are a delicacy and a potential bribe.




More fluff.



Shade said:


> The giants have been known to raid nearby human tribes for fun, to acquire human servants, and to keep other human tribes in fear of them.




Should there be X humans in a Bosk Giant village?

Should Bosk Giants target humans in a mixed race group (i.e. leave the elf, but kidnap the human)?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 17, 2008)

No 3.X giants have stats for their juveniles, despite this being a very common thing to do in previous edition. So that's a vote for no.

If we really want to give them an extra bonus for using clubs, we can give them Weapon Spec as a bonus feat. But I don't want to--I think this comes to difference between editions. We neither need nor should want to literally convert every mechanic on display here. Ditto for the huge muscles and long legs--giants are already strong and are faster than people.

The swamp water spittle does seem like a ranged touch attack, and I like the idea that they need a full round to gulp up new water. We might want to increase the acid damage, due to their CR. Also, I think changing dazing to blinding (in the eyes!) or stunning (due to the force of the blow). 

A +6 natural armor bonus works, especially if we assume they're also wearing some form of armor. I like the Hide bonus.

I don't think bosk giants should have a Charisma bonus. They may be handsome, but they're also coarse, rude slavers. Speaking of, I agree that they should have humanoids included in their organization as slaves, but having them choose humans exclusively seems far too literalist for my taste.


----------



## freyar (Jul 17, 2008)

I'm with demiurge here and like those suggestions.  For the "dazing" from the spit, I'd go with stunning from the force of the water.


----------



## Big Mac (Jul 18, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> No 3.X giants have stats for their juveniles, despite this being a very common thing to do in previous edition. So that's a vote for no.




If other giants drop them, then it is best to copy that.



demiurge1138 said:


> If we really want to give them an extra bonus for using clubs, we can give them Weapon Spec as a bonus feat. But I don't want to--I think this comes to difference between editions. We neither need nor should want to literally convert every mechanic on display here.




I think we need to look at the mechanics and see which are important to the creature and which are more about the edition it came from. But if people think this is something that can be cut, I'll go along with that.

It still might be nice to mention their homemade weapon construction in the blurb. It would be a good way for these creatures to rearm themselves (over time).



demiurge1138 said:


> Ditto for the huge muscles and long legs--giants are already strong and are faster than people.




How about something similar, like a pass without trace or move silently bonus?



demiurge1138 said:


> The swamp water spittle does seem like a ranged touch attack, and I like the idea that they need a full round to gulp up new water. We might want to increase the acid damage, due to their CR. Also, I think changing dazing to blinding (in the eyes!) or stunning (due to the force of the blow).




Blinding in the eyes works best for me.



demiurge1138 said:


> A +6 natural armor bonus works, especially if we assume they're also wearing some form of armor. I like the Hide bonus.




Armor sounds nice. I think that homemade armor construction might be a useful thing to put into these guys.



demiurge1138 said:


> I don't think bosk giants should have a Charisma bonus. They may be handsome, but they're also coarse, rude slavers.




Fair enough.



demiurge1138 said:


> Speaking of, I agree that they should have humanoids included in their organization as slaves, but having them choose humans exclusively seems far too literalist for my taste.




I think the "human slave" thing, is probably more tied into the humans of Chislev being one of the least well prepared targets. Outside of Spelljammer, it would make sense for bosk giants to enslave whoever was easiest to catch.


----------



## Shade (Jul 18, 2008)

Big Mac said:


> Newsflash: ENWorld moderator finishes off trolls.




Film at eleven.  

Added to Homebrews with some of the basics.   I'll dig further into the discussion to fill in the blanks.

On the subject of the extra damage for the greatclubs, I get the impression that they basically are converting the weapon from just bludgeoning to bludgeoning and piercing damage, like a morningstar.  The old-school method was simply to add a few extra points of damage to note such a difference.  

I may have missed it, but I didn't get the impression they wore armor.  +6 natural is a bit low...similarly-sized cloud giants have +12.  +8 natural would preserve their converted AC of 16.


----------



## freyar (Jul 18, 2008)

Hmm, it says they usually don't wear much, so I have to agree with Shade on the natural armor (though you put +6 natural in the homebrews).

Do we want to find a crude bludegeoning and piercing weapon or just stick with the greatclub?

Hide bonus in bogs, marshes, swamps, etc, +8?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 19, 2008)

We could give them a Gargantuan morningstar, ala cloud giants.


----------



## Big Mac (Jul 19, 2008)

*More SJR7 blurb on Giants*

I've copied this stuff from SJR7 as I think it might help with the conversion process:



			
				SJR7 Krynnspace - pages 45-46 said:
			
		

> The dominant species on the planet are giants. Hill giants live in the mountains south of the equator, and swamp and bosk giants live throughtout the globe. These latter two giants are detailed in the Monstrous Compendium entries at the end of the suppliment.
> 
> All giants have the rudiments of civilisation, living in crude villages with simple forms of government. The rulers of these villages are usually the strongest, with leadership frequently determined by combat. Giants disdain both the humans and demihumans on Chislev, considering them little more than animals. The swamp giants have left the humans and demi-humans alone, and have fought them only on the rare occasions when the "small ones" have ventured onto giant land. However, bosk ggiants have no qualms about attacking and capturing humans. No humans or demi-humans have been known to survive combat with these giants.


----------



## Big Mac (Jul 19, 2008)

*On armor:*



freyar said:


> Hmm, it says they usually don't wear much, so I have to agree with Shade on the natural armor (though you put +6 natural in the homebrews).




I concur with this. They have thick skin and don't wear much.

*On weapons:*



freyar said:


> Do we want to find a crude bludegeoning and piercing weapon or just stick with the greatclub?




...and...



demiurge1138 said:


> We could give them a Gargantuan morningstar, ala cloud giants.




Could we not do *both*? Most Bosk Giants could have great clubs, but the most intellegent ones could "whittle" themselves the uber-morningstar. A GM could then put down 5 Bosk Giants and give the leader a spikey club and the rest the blunt clubs.

*On hide bonuses:*



freyar said:


> Hide bonus in bogs, marshes, swamps, etc, +8?




You need to put jungle in the list because Chislev is a global jungle where the only variety is the type of tree in the various forests.

Page 43 of SJR7 Krynnspace says: "Chislev is a jungle. From pole to pole this world is covered with plants. Chislev has no oceans and only a few dozen lakes. Most of the water on this world is choked with vegitation".

*On Bosk Giant slavery:*

Here is a useful quote from page 45 of SJR7:



			
				Page 45: SJR7 Krynnspace said:
			
		

> Humans and demi-humans are rare on Chislev, with most living on the northen and southern poles away from large perdatory animals. These bands of humans, elves, dwarves and kender are loosly-knit and disorganised. They are primative, barbaric, and move about to find food. Only a few of the bands have established communities, and these are without any form of government. The focus of these tribes' lives is to stay alive. Strength, the ability to gather food, and top hunting skills are most admired.




The humans (taken as slaves) and demi-humans mostly live at the cooler poles of Chislev. They are all uneducated barbarians, and all of the giant races think of them as little more than animals. That isn't necessarily going to apply to other gameworlds, so I think you are right to swap the races that Bosk Giants target.

I think that if a GM is going to put these creatures on another game world, they should stick them in a swamp or wet jungle and have them raid all nomadic races in the area.

*On bosk giant society:*

Village leaders need to be good fighters, and I'd love to see most of the leaders get the Gargantuan morningstar that demiurge brought up.

All Chislev giants look down on smaller races, but the bosk giants seem to especially think of themselves as the "master race". I think that bosk giants should use their slaves the way that a shepherd would use a dog to heard sheep or a tracker would use a dog to follow a scent trail. Mind you, I'm not entirely sure what role a slave can take in a crude village, especially one that is built in swamps. Maybe they tend to the stagnant pools of water that the bosk giants like to drink from. Slaves could dig holes that fill up with stale water.


----------



## Shade (Jul 21, 2008)

So...Gargantuan greatclubs for the non-leaders, Gargantuan morningstars for the leaders (note that they do less damage with more versatile damage types)?


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## Big Mac (Jul 21, 2008)

Shade said:


> So...Gargantuan greatclubs for the non-leaders, Gargantuan morningstars for the leaders (note that they do less damage with more versatile damage types)?




Less damage, huh?

Would it be dodgy to make them mastercrafted gargantuan morningstars?


----------



## Shade (Jul 21, 2008)

No, but masterwork only provides a bonus to attack rolls, not damage.

If we want them to do more damage, I'd recommend making a two-handed version of the morningstar to compete with the greatclub.  Probably 1d10/x2 bludgeoning and piercing damage.


----------



## Big Mac (Jul 21, 2008)

Shade said:


> No, but masterwork only provides a bonus to attack rolls, not damage.
> 
> If we want them to do more damage, I'd recommend making a two-handed version of the morningstar to compete with the greatclub.  Probably 1d10/x2 bludgeoning and piercing damage.




The "whittled" version was originally supposed to be an "improvement", so I think that if the 3rd edition replacement is carved from a slightly bigger branch it would fit in with the spirit of the original weapon.

(I think this also means that community leaders should be both extra intellegent and extra strong.)


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 21, 2008)

I think we should give them Huge greatclubs or Gargantuan morningstars. I'm pretty sure that cloud giants wield their Gargantuan morningstars in two hands...


----------



## freyar (Jul 23, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I think we should give them Huge greatclubs or Gargantuan morningstars. I'm pretty sure that cloud giants wield their Gargantuan morningstars in two hands...



That's what the SRD says.  


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Oversized Weapon (Ex): A cloud giant wields a great, two-handed morningstar (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty.



We should just give them that and note in the flavor text that usually only leaders are intelligent enough to take advantage.  That's 4d6 base damage (avg 14).  A Huge greatclub would do 3d8 I think (avg 13.5).  So there's a slight increase in average damage (but probably also a slightly narrower distribution) as well as the versatility of damage type.

I'm also fine with putting jungle in the conditional Hide bonus.


----------



## Big Mac (Jul 23, 2008)

*Bosk Giant clerics?*

I can't remember if you need to cover religion (or clerics) for giants. You include it in some conversions, but not others.

I brought up Zeboim (the evil DL nature god) earlier, but I think my comments got lost in all the other activity. I can't see a god of jungles or swamps, but Zeboim is the god of evil druids, so is as close as we are going to get.

If the Bosk Giant Characters section is going to cover clerics then I think that people should be directed to page 134 of DLCS (unless you want to use the clerical spheres from Dragonlance Adventures to work out your own clerical domains).

(I've looked through Holy Orders of the Stars, but most of that focuses on Zeboim's association with the sea, so there isn't really a page there I would point people at.)


----------



## Shade (Jul 29, 2008)

Updated.

Let's work on the spit water ability...



> The giants have a special attack. Bosks can swallow great amounts of swamp water, which they can spit at their targets in a stream 12' long by 6" wide. The fetid water is combined with the gastric juices of the giant, causing Id8 points of damage. Further, all those struck by bosk spit must save vs. paralyzation or be dazed for 1 d6 rounds. Bosk giants who have swallowed swamp water can spit twice before needing to fill up again.


----------



## freyar (Jul 29, 2008)

Ranged touch doing 1d8 acid (demiurge suggested increasing to fit CR better) and either stunning or blinding (Fort or Ref negates), we didn't seem to have a consensus.  Can spit twice, but then needs a full-round action to swallow more water.  Range 30-40 ft?


----------



## Shade (Jul 29, 2008)

I agree with Demiurge that the damage is insignificant at their CR.  Maybe 3d8?

I could see stunning, but nauseated actually strikes me as the most appropriate.  Imagine the stench of swamp water mixed with stomach juices!


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 29, 2008)

I like nauseated.


----------



## Shade (Jul 30, 2008)

Does this look OK?

Swamp Spit (Ex):  Bosk giants can spit swamp water combined with their gastric juices at enemies.   This is a ranged touch attack with a range of 30 feet that deals 3d8 points of acid damage.  Additionally, a struck victim must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or becmoe nauseated for 1d6 rounds.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

A bosk giant can store enough swamp water to spit twice.  After that, it may spend a full-round action to swallow enough swamp water to spit again.  A swamp giant may refill its stomach after only a single use, but may never store more than two uses worth of swamp water.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 30, 2008)

Considering that the original text has the spit in a line 12 by 6, why don't we make it a breath weapon instead? A line, I would imagine.


----------



## Shade (Jul 30, 2008)

So 10-foot line with a Reflex save rather than ranged touch?


----------



## freyar (Jul 30, 2008)

Works for me and otherwise looks good.  What's next on these?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 31, 2008)

I think a 10ft line is sort of sad. Maybe 30 feet?


----------



## Shade (Jul 31, 2008)

Like so?

Swamp Spit (Ex): Bosk giants can spit swamp water combined with their gastric juices at enemies. This is a 30-foot line that deals 3d8 points of acid damage (Reflex DC X half). Additionally, a struck victim must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or becmoe nauseated for 1d6 rounds. The save DCs are Constitution-based.

A bosk giant can store enough swamp water to spit twice. After that, it may spend a full-round action to swallow enough swamp water to spit again. A swamp giant may refill its stomach after only a single use, but may never store more than two uses worth of swamp water.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 31, 2008)

Struck? As in, failed the Reflex save or took any damage at all?


----------



## Shade (Jul 31, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Struck? As in, failed the Reflex save or took any damage at all?




Good catch.  That was leftover from when a ranged touch was required.  It should probably look like this...


Swamp Spit (Ex): Bosk giants can spit swamp water combined with their gastric juices at enemies. This is a 30-foot line that deals 3d8 points of acid damage (Reflex DC X half). Additionally, a creature in the line must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or becmoe nauseated for 1d6 rounds. The save DCs are Constitution-based.

A bosk giant can store enough swamp water to spit twice. After that, it may spend a full-round action to swallow enough swamp water to spit again. A swamp giant may refill its stomach after only a single use, but may never store more than two uses worth of swamp water.


----------



## freyar (Jul 31, 2008)

Looks fine to me.


----------



## Shade (Jul 31, 2008)

Updated, including flavor text.

Skills: 17

Feats: 5

A bosk giant stands about 19 feet tall and weighs about x pounds. Skin coloration ranges from pale olive to green so dark it is nearly black. Their hair is always green, growing in clumps like grass. Bosk giants can live to be x years old.  (Cloud giants are 18 feet tall and weigh about 5,000 pounds; storm giants are about 21 feet tall and weigh about 12,000 pounds)

A bosk giant's bag usually contains x.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 1, 2008)

Bosk giant bags probably have miscellaneous food, tools made out of shells or antlers, metal tools stolen from humanoids...

Oh, and check the spelling on "becomes" in the breath weapon text.


----------



## freyar (Aug 1, 2008)

... and body parts stolen from humanoids? 

8000 lb?  

Feats: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Awesome Blow, Iron Will, Cleave?

Skills: Hide 5, Listen 6, Spot 6


----------



## Big Mac (Aug 1, 2008)

Shade said:


> I agree with Demiurge that the damage is insignificant at their CR.  Maybe 3d8?
> 
> I could see stunning, but nauseated actually strikes me as the most appropriate.  Imagine the stench of swamp water mixed with stomach juices!




I think nauseated is best too. As for the damage, don't forget that this is a freebie weapon that the giant can never drop. Its a gastric dagger.



Shade said:


> Does this look OK?
> 
> Swamp Spit (Ex):  Bosk giants can spit swamp water combined with their gastric juices at enemies.   This is a ranged touch attack with a range of 30 feet that deals 3d8 points of acid damage.  Additionally, a struck victim must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or becmoe nauseated for 1d6 rounds.  The save DC is Constitution-based.
> 
> A bosk giant can store enough swamp water to spit twice.  After that, it may spend a full-round action to swallow enough swamp water to spit again.  A swamp giant may refill its stomach after only a single use, but may never store more than two uses worth of swamp water.




It looks pretty good (apart from the transposistion error in the word "become"  ).

Do you think that we should create a feat for Bosk Giants that allows them to stretch their stomach and gain a third spit attack? That might be useful for PCs or NPCs that advance a bit.



demiurge1138 said:


> Considering that the original text has the spit in a line 12 by 6, why don't we make it a breath weapon instead? A line, I would imagine.




It certainly seems to work as if it is a breath weapon. What would be the advantage of making the switch? Could we copy the breath weapon style but say that "as if it was a breath weapon"?


----------



## freyar (Aug 1, 2008)

Check out post #185 and the updated homebrews entry.  It's already written as a breath weapon there.


----------



## Shade (Aug 1, 2008)

Updated.   I fixed the "becmoe", too.  



			
				Big Mac said:
			
		

> Do you think that we should create a feat for Bosk Giants that allows them to stretch their stomach and gain a third spit attack? That might be useful for PCs or NPCs that advance a bit.




I don't think we need to do so.  In fact, I think there already is a feat that allows an extra use of an x/day breath weapon out there somewhere.  

Organization:  Solitary, pair, or village (7-13 plus one x-th level leader plus 7-13 infants and juveniles)?

Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items (like cloud and storm giants)?

CR 10?  They seem on par with fire giants, and not as good as CR 11 cloud giants.

Favored class:  fighter?


----------



## freyar (Aug 1, 2008)

Umm, 4th or 5th level leader?  Maybe specify the leader is a fighter.

CR 10 and favored class fighter sound reasonable.


----------



## Shade (Aug 1, 2008)

Updated.

While I don't want to stat out juveniles and infants, would it be acceptable to state "treat infants as ogres and juveniles as hill giants"?   Or should we just handwave the young and list them as "noncombants" like most other giants?


----------



## Big Mac (Aug 2, 2008)

freyar said:


> Check out post #185 and the updated homebrews entry.  It's already written as a breath weapon there.




I didn't see the last page of posts when I posted that. 



Shade said:


> I don't think we need to do so.  In fact, I think there already is a feat that allows an extra use of an x/day breath weapon out there somewhere.




I'll be looking that up, when I play one of these as a PC. 



Shade said:


> Organization:  Solitary, pair, or village (7-13 plus one x-th level leader plus 7-13 infants and juveniles)?




That looks good, but should probably include "a raiding party of X giants" in there somewhere. (I initially thought these would all be adults, but maybe a juvenile giant has to help capture or kill a humanoid to pass into adulthood.) The original stats had the number appearing as "1-3", so how about a raiding party of 3 being made up of two adults and one juvenile who is coming of age?



Shade said:


> Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items (like cloud and storm giants)?




I don't see coins being very common on Chislev. The giants of Chislev are the most "civilised" societies on the world and they are not very well organised.

We also have evidence from the dragons that coins are very uncommon on Chislev:


			
				SJR7 Krynnspace p46 said:
			
		

> Unlike dragon's hordes on other worlds throughout the spheres, the  treasures of green and black dragons of Chislev are with few exceptions, simple. In fact, the dragons of Krynn would consider their Chislev brothers poor. Chislev dragon hordes consist of crude metal and bone jewlery made by swamp and bosk giants, primitive humans and demihumans and the wooden carvings of hill giant artisians.




I also don't think you should let them steal metal items from humanoids:



			
				SJR7 Krynnspace p45 said:
			
		

> The Shou Lung explorers tried repeatedly to educate these pockets of humans and demi-humans. The explorers were met with superstition and fear, and the tools they offered were quickly disgarded. Intent upon "saving" these people, the Shou Lung explorers captured two of each type of people - dwarves, humans, elves, and kender - and took them off of Chislev where they could be trained. Years later the people were returned to the world, but there is no evidence that these individuals have changed the lifestyle of the tribes of the planet.




But we do know they buy/trade with swamp giants to get wooden items:



			
				SJR7 Krynnspace p96 said:
			
		

> The swamp giants are known for crafting wooden bowls, dishes, and other objects that the bosk covert.




I suggest: dropping (or drastically reducing) the coins*. Keep quantity of goods, but make them the sort of thing that can be made using stone axes, flint tools and that sort of level of technology. I think that all bosk giants should have a wooden drinking bowl (that they use for drinking the swamp water) a wooden dish, a wooden spoon, a flint knife, tools needed to skin the hides off of animals. They should also have meat from animals and maybe occasionally a live animal or slave tied up in a hide bag.

_* = If there are any coins they should really be made by hill giants or swamp giants and there should be no gold coins, as that would fit in better with the money on Krynn. I'd be tempted to give the hill giants wooden coins carved from special trees, similar to the Ironwood trees on page 114 of DLCS._



Shade said:


> CR 10?  They seem on par with fire giants, and not as good as CR 11 cloud giants.




The main thing to compare them with is hill giants. We also need to fit them in with the (as yet unconverted) swamp giants.



Shade said:


> Favored class:  fighter?




These guys don't bother to use ranged weapons (apart from their own spit) because they prefer to rush in and pummel their foes. I'd say that the barbarian class was *much* closer to their culture than fighter is.


----------



## Big Mac (Aug 2, 2008)

freyar said:


> Umm, 4th or 5th level leader?  Maybe specify the leader is a fighter.




The level sounds right, although I would have gone for a barbarian leader or a Zeboim worshiping ranger leader with humans as a racial enemy.



Shade said:


> While I don't want to stat out juveniles and infants, would it be acceptable to state "treat infants as ogres and juveniles as hill giants"?   Or should we just handwave the young and list them as "noncombants" like most other giants?




Didn't we have another monster recently, that did this? We know that infants and juveniles fight alongside adults if PCs enter a village, so I think that the handwaving isn't the option to take.


----------



## freyar (Aug 2, 2008)

Switching the leader and favored class to barbarian works for me and probably does make more sense.

I'm also ok with dropping coins and specifying non-metal goods.

I like the idea of saying that infants have ogre stats and juveniles have hill giant stats.  Adding a raiding party of 3-4 giants and 1-2 juveniles also appeals.


----------



## Shade (Aug 4, 2008)

Thanks for the additional information on Chislev.  That was quite useful.  

Updated.

Do we want to give the infants and juveniles swamp spit?  If so, it's easy enough...just lower the DC based on HD and Con of hill giant/ogre, and probably reduce the damage to 2d8 for juveniles and 1d8 for infants.

Any idea on how long these things live?  If not, I'd recommend slightly longer than hill giants (200 years).


----------



## Big Mac (Aug 5, 2008)

Shade said:


> Thanks for the additional information on Chislev.  That was quite useful.




No problem. I've felt like a passenger on a lot of the conversions, so it is nice to be able to contribute something useful from time to time.



Shade said:


> Do we want to give the infants and juveniles swamp spit?  If so, it's easy enough...just lower the DC based on HD and Con of hill giant/ogre, and probably reduce the damage to 2d8 for juveniles and 1d8 for infants.




Sounds good to me.



Shade said:


> Any idea on how long these things live?  If not, I'd recommend slightly longer than hill giants (200 years).




I can't find anything about bosk giant ages, but they have a swamp giant NPC (called Sully Gatherer-Clan) who is 90 years old (he became king at 60 and has been king for three decades). He is described as well into middle age for a swamp giant.


----------



## freyar (Aug 5, 2008)

Would adding the swamp spit to hill giants and ogres be worth a CR bump?  I might suggest only adding it to juveniles, actually, partly to avoid this problem (it's less of an increase to a hill giant than an ogre).

Sounds like about 150-180 yrs.


----------



## Shade (Aug 5, 2008)

Yeah, based on 90 years being "well into middle age", let's go with 150.   Chislev sounds like a harsh place.  

I'm fine with either dropping the swamp spit for infants, or noting that the CR is one higher than an ogre.  

Updated.


----------



## Big Mac (Aug 5, 2008)

freyar said:


> Would adding the swamp spit to hill giants and ogres be worth a CR bump?  I might suggest only adding it to juveniles, actually, partly to avoid this problem (it's less of an increase to a hill giant than an ogre).




...and...



Shade said:


> I'm fine with either dropping the swamp spit for infants, or noting that the CR is one higher than an ogre.




What about giving the kids a spit ability that is less effective. If infants have smaller stomachs maybe they can spit but can't do damage. You could give them a Swamp Spit ability that doesn't do any hit points, but forces spellcasters to make concentration checks. (Try juggling material components and making complex gestures while a baby bosk giant spits half a pint of dirty water in your eye.   )



freyar said:


> Sounds like about 150-180 yrs.




...and...



Shade said:


> Yeah, based on 90 years being "well into middle age", let's go with 150.   Chislev sounds like a harsh place.




Don't forget that that age was for a *swamp giant* rather than a *bosk giant*. Swamp giants seem to be less agressive and more civilised that bosk giants. I'd expect them to live longer than bosk giants, especially with bosk giants sucking up and spitting out stagnent water all the time (that must be pretty bad for their teeth).

How about making bosk giants have the shortest lives (of the three giant races on Chislev). Swamp giants could have the medium lives and hill giants (who are a known quantity) could have the longest lives? I say we put in a 40 year gap between each race (i.e. bump swamp giants up to 160 years and drop bosk giants down to 120 years). How does that sound?

(Actually, I think we younger bosk giants would try to muscle in on the territory of older bosk giants who seem to be showing their age. I think that bosk giants should have no concept of "village elders" and venerable bosk giants should be dangerous homeless loners who stalk humanoids, steal their food and occasionally beat one of them up just to proove to themselves that they are still able to fight.)


----------



## Shade (Aug 5, 2008)

I'm good with those age ranges.  

I'd rather not make the infants do a different effect, but if you'd like, I'll keep the swamp spit with 1d8 damage.

Ready for the swamp giants?


----------



## Big Mac (Aug 6, 2008)

Shade said:


> I'd rather not make the infants do a different effect, but if you'd like, I'll keep the swamp spit with 1d8 damage.




I'm not massively attached to the spitting ability. I just thought that it was something people would expect to be there.

Maybe the infants have stomachs that are too small to allow them to spit water. Maybe the juvenile bosk giants can only spit once (instead of twice) because they can only store one shot in their stomach. Do you think a 0-1-2 mechanic might seem more like an evolving abilty or should they jump from 0 to 2?



Shade said:


> Ready for the swamp giants?




YES!


----------



## Shade (Aug 6, 2008)

Let's just leave it at 2 times for simplicity's sake.  I figure the less damage could be attributed to less "storage capacity".

Moving on...

*Giant, Swamp*

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Swamps, tropical forests
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Tribal
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivorous
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: D
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 4 or 0
MOVEMENt: 12
HIT DICE: 15+5
THACO: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 or 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d8+9/1d8+9 or by weapon 2d6+9
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Hurl spears (1d10+9), spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: H (16' tall)
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
XP VALUE:
Infant: -5 HD 2,000
Juvenile: -2 HD 6,000
Adult: 9,000-10,000
Shaman: 10,000-11,000

Swamp giants are believed to have evolved ages ago from bosk giants. These smaller, stockier giants are more intelligent than the nearby bosk and have learned the rudiments of civilization.

Swamp giants have green skin and hair like the bosk, and therefore are quickly mistaken for their slow-witted cousins. However, there are differences. Swamp giants tend to wear their hair long, usually braided and festooned with ornaments collected from battle. Further, they have facial hair, which most of them keep trimmed.

A swamp giant's natural armor class is 4. However, many of the adult males wear the skin of young green dragons. This skin, cured in a manner known only to these giants, lowers their armor class to 0. Their coloration gives them a +3 chance to surprise opponents and a -3 chance to be surprised. Giants in green dragon armor have a +2 surprise bonus and -2 AC bonus. All swamp giants regenerate 5 hit points of damage per round.

Combat: Swamp giants fight only when they believe their territory is in danger. They prefer to reason with a foe first (with the exception of dragons). They often choose a leader when going into battle and follow his directions. They prefer to circle their quarry, using their coloration to blend into the foliage.

They begin their assaults with spells. Because swamp giants are so tuned to their environment, from birth they are able to cast entangle three times a day and plant growth once a day. A favorite tactic is to trap prey in a tangle of vegetation, then slaughter it with a volley of spears. Each giant can throw two spears per round.

Habitat/Society: Swamp giants prefer to live in trees, in simple homes constructed of wood and reeds. Of course, the trees they choose for homes are immense, usually at least 10 to 20 feet in diameter and 100 feet or more tall. They generally live peaceful lives, staying to themselves and interacting with the bosk only when their cousins wish to trade. The swamp giants are known for crafting wooden bowls, dishes, and other objects that the bosk covet.

When more than four swamp giants are encountered, they are a mated pair and infants or juveniles.

When encountered in their lair, there are 4d4 + 6 giants, one half of these adults. The remainder are infants and juveniles. An infant has 10 HD and has only a +5 damage bonus. A juvenile at 13 HD has a +7 damage bonus. If a village is threatened, the adults protect the infants and juveniles.

For every 10 giants encountered, there is a 30% chance one is a shaman, a giant who is the equivalent of a 1st-6th level druid. These shamans are respected in swamp giant communities and are often sought as advisors by the village leader.

All the villages recognize a king. He is considered the strongest and wisest of the swamp giants and other giants look to him to appoint village leaders.

Ecology: Swamp giants live off the land, hunting and foraging for food. Many of them grow a large, ricelike crop. They do not keep animals for food. Their favorite meat is the flesh of young green dragons. In turn, older green dragons like to hunt the swamp giants.

Originally appeared in SJR7 - Krynnspace (1993).


----------



## Shade (Aug 6, 2008)

Comparing the 2e stats of the bosk and swamp giants, the swamp should have higher Str (translates to 2 points higher in 3e), Con, and Int (3 points higher).  We might also consider raising Cha.

How's this?

Str 29, Dex 10, Con 25, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 10


Note that the "special" dragonhide armor isn't so special anymore, since dragonhide is a core special material.  That's one less thing to worry about.


----------



## freyar (Aug 6, 2008)

I like those stats pretty well, but I'd like to bump Cha to 12 or even 14.  These will have entangle as an SLA, and the DC boost would be nice.


----------



## Shade (Aug 8, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



> All swamp giants regenerate 5 hit points of damage per round.




Fast healing 5?


----------



## freyar (Aug 8, 2008)

Yeah.  Not much else for these, is there?  Skills should probably be split between Spot and Listen, since they're not surprised much.  Alertness might be good as a feat, too.


----------



## Big Mac (Aug 9, 2008)

Shade said:


> *Giant, Swamp*
> 
> CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Swamps, tropical forests




...and...



Shade said:


> TREASURE: D




This environment should have a bearing on the sort of equipment they make and the treasure they "drop".



Shade said:


> ORGANIZATION: Tribal




...and...



Shade said:


> NO. APPEARING: 1-3




Organization: Solitary, hunting party (2-3 giants) or village (x).​


Shade said:


> DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d8+9/1d8+9 or by weapon 2d6+9




You have the slam damage as 1d6+9. Shouldn't it be 1d8+9? (Or is there a general lowering of giant damage in the transition to 3rd edition?)



Shade said:


> SPECIAL ATTACKS: Hurl spears (1d10+9), spells




Automatic proficiency with spears as well as hide armor (in the Swamp Giant Characters section)?

I think that a swamp giant should cast spells as a druid (worshiping the god Chislev). I'd even suggest druid should be the favored class of Swamp Giant Characters.



Shade said:


> XP VALUE:
> Infant: -5 HD 2,000
> Juvenile: -2 HD 6,000
> Adult: 9,000-10,000
> Shaman: 10,000-11,000




Should we have blurb similar to bosk giants for infant and juvenile swamp giants?

I wonder if we should include separate stats for a Swamp Giant Shaman (like the Ogre Barbarian):



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Ogre Barbarian
> Their inherent bent toward chaos combines with their size and strength to make ogres natural barbarians. Indeed, their leaders are almost always barbarians of low to middle level, monstrous brutes whose fury in battle is truly fearsome. A raging ogre barbarian is an inspiration to other ogres.
> 
> Combat
> ...




I'd like to see a Swamp Giant Shaman listed as Chislev worshipping druids of low to middle level, with stats given for a 6th level druid swamp giant. 



Shade said:


> Swamp giants are believed to have evolved ages ago from bosk giants. These smaller, stockier giants are more intelligent than the nearby bosk and have learned the rudiments of civilization.




Hmm. So we copy the bosk giant if there isn't anything here (and could apply things from the swamp giant back to the bosk giant retro-actively if they looked better than what we just did). But we should give swamp giants more intelligence and a better civilsation. As well as making them shorter and fatter.



Shade said:


> Swamp giants have green skin and hair like the bosk, and therefore are quickly mistaken for their slow-witted cousins. However, there are differences. Swamp giants tend to wear their hair long, usually braided and festooned with ornaments collected from battle. Further, they have facial hair, which most of them keep trimmed.




I think you have this covered in the initial italic blurb. The "ornaments collected from battle" thing is interesting as it could give you an idea for some things to put into the giant's bag. I see these guys being resistant to fighing, but collectors of random items from anyone they are forced to fight and kill.



Shade said:


> A swamp giant's natural armor class is 4. However, many of the adult males wear the skin of young green dragons. This skin, cured in a manner known only to these giants, lowers their armor class to 0. Their coloration gives them a +3 chance to surprise opponents and a -3 chance to be surprised. Giants in green dragon armor have a +2 surprise bonus and -2 AC bonus. All swamp giants regenerate 5 hit points of damage per round.




You say dragon armor is taken care of, but I wonder if they can make mastercrafted dragon armor. I certanly think you should consider giving them a few points of Craft(Armorsmithing) in their stats. Or maybe they could get something like a +2 racial bonus to Craft checks that involve green dragonskin.



Shade said:


> Combat: Swamp giants fight only when they believe their territory is in danger. They prefer to reason with a foe first (with the exception of dragons).




+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against green dragons (or all dragons)? Requirement to take green dragons as a favored enemy if they take levels of a class that gives them this ability?



Shade said:


> They often choose a leader when going into battle and follow his directions. They prefer to circle their quarry, using their coloration to blend into the foliage.




Fluff or ability?



Shade said:


> They begin their assaults with spells. Because swamp giants are so tuned to their environment, from birth they are able to cast entangle three times a day and plant growth once a day. A favorite tactic is to trap prey in a tangle of vegetation, then slaughter it with a volley of spears. Each giant can throw two spears per round.




Swamp giant shamen are supposed to be druids and both these spells are druid spells.

Entangle is a 1st level druid spell and Plant Growth is a 3rd level druid spell, so I'd suggest they cast these spell-like abilities with caster level of 3rd.



Shade said:


> Habitat/Society: Swamp giants prefer to live in trees, in simple homes constructed of wood and reeds. Of course, the trees they choose for homes are immense, usually at least 10 to 20 feet in diameter and 100 feet or more tall.




Interesting. A swamp giant village sounds like a cross between Solace (from Dragonlance) and the Ewok village from Return of the Jedi.

I'd suggest a few points in the climb skill. Living on 100 foot tall trees might also alter swamp giant hunting tactics. They could perhaps sometimes move from tree to tree (Tarzan style) and attack people from above.



Shade said:


> They generally live peaceful lives, staying to themselves and interacting with the bosk only when their cousins wish to trade. The swamp giants are known for crafting wooden bowls, dishes, and other objects that the bosk covet.




Skill points in the stats? Or a +2 racial bonus for Craft checks involving wood.



Shade said:


> When more than four swamp giants are encountered, they are a mated pair and infants or juveniles.




Hmm. More information for the "Organisation" part of the stats. (The original stats doesn't actually have 4 swamp giants - just 1-3 swamp giants.)

The family thing changes the earier text that said: "They often choose a leader when going into battle and follow his directions." Now it is just Mrs Swamp Giant and the Swamp Giant kids listen to Mr Swamp Giant when they go into combat.



Shade said:


> When encountered in their lair, there are 4d4 + 6 giants, one half of these adults. The remainder are infants and juveniles. An infant has 10 HD and has only a +5 damage bonus. A juvenile at 13 HD has a +7 damage bonus. If a village is threatened, the adults protect the infants and juveniles.




So a village is 5-11 adults plus 5-11 infants and juveniles.



Shade said:


> For every 10 giants encountered, there is a 30% chance one is a shaman, a giant who is the equivalent of a 1st-6th level druid. These shamans are respected in swamp giant communities and are often sought as advisors by the village leader.




So to the village stats we need to add in a leader *or* a leader *plus* a shaman.



Shade said:


> All the villages recognize a king. He is considered the strongest and wisest of the swamp giants and other giants look to him to appoint village leaders.




The swamp giant king is King Sully Gatherer-Clan. This NPC is on page 47 of SJR7 Krynnspace. I'll type him in later on, as his text could help with the conversion.



Shade said:


> Ecology: Swamp giants live off the land, hunting and foraging for food. Many of them grow a large, ricelike crop. They do not keep animals for food. Their favorite meat is the flesh of young green dragons. In turn, older green dragons like to hunt the swamp giants.




Nice fluff. More evidence that these guys need a bonus against green dragons.


----------



## Big Mac (Aug 9, 2008)

*Swamp Giant NPC*

I don't know if you want to convert this guy (as a swamp giant NPC) or just use his stats and fluff as a guide, but I think he is useful:

*Sully Gatherer-Clan*

*Name:* Sully Gatherer-Clan
*Occupation:* Swamp Giant King
Str: 24
Int: 10
Dex: 12
Cha: 18
Wis: 10
Con: 22

Sully of the Harvest Clan has served as king of the swamp giants for the past three decades.

Well into middle-age for a swamp giant, he works to retain his great strength and health, knowing that if he begins to weaken he will be challenged for the kingship.

Sully is the only swamp giant who has been off of Chislev, and he is the only giant on his world to truly have mastered hand-to-hand fighting techniques. As a child, he was captured by spelljamming pirates and sold into slavery to an unscupulous land baron in Shou Lung. Escaping after four years of hard labor, the young giant was befriended by a band of Shou Lung adventurers who took to the stars aboard a spelljammer. Sully accompanied them, and eventually their travels took them back to Sully's home. It was because of Sully that the Shou Lung  group decided to explor the planet.

Sully became king at age 60, after killing an adult green dragon with his bare hands. He has ruled the swamp giants well, appointing leaders over the communities and meeting with these leaders to discuss various common problems. A prime concern is the aggressive green dragons. Sully has passed down combat techniques he learned in Shou Lung, which have proved fairly effective in fighting the great lizards. Still, he has not been able to obliterate the threat.

It is because of Sully that spelljamming adventurers are welcomed by the swamp giants. Prior to Sully's return, these giants - like the humans and demihumans of Chislev - feared and sometimes attacked visitors. Tribes of giants not beholden to Sully are rumored to exist deep in the jungles.

Sully is cordial and cooperative with all neutral and good-aligned spelljamming visitors. He is quick to strike up trade agreements and to allow humans and demihumans to hire his people as guides. The swamp giants have learned which plants are most prized by humans and demihumans and have no qualms about allowing the small people to take as many plants as they can carry. The giants know there is no shortage of vegitation on Chislev.

Originally appeared in SJR7 - Krynnspace (1993).


----------



## freyar (Aug 9, 2008)

Lots of comments there!

I'd say CL should be higher than 3rd, potentially as high as 15.  At least 5th, though, since plant growth is 3rd level.

I like the idea of a giving them favored enemy (dragon).  I'd also be fine with statting up a shaman.

Giving them craft skills is also a good idea.


----------



## Big Mac (Aug 9, 2008)

Big Mac said:


> Shade said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Oh, and I forgot to mention that swamp giant hairdressers are better than bosk giant hairdressers! 



freyar said:


> Lots of comments there!




At least one of them must be useful.



freyar said:


> I'd say CL should be higher than 3rd, potentially as high as 15.  At least 5th, though, since plant growth is 3rd level.




You are right. I should have said 5th level. I mixed up spell level with spellcasting level. Doh! 

Is there a lot of precident for giving monsters more spellcasting oomph than the lowest level needed to cast the spells?

With swamp giants having 15 HD an LA of just +5 is going to make their ECL so high that they become epic as 0 level PCs.



freyar said:


> I like the idea of a giving them favored enemy (dragon).




Is favored enemy (dragon) too broad? Should we narrow it down to favored enemy (green dragon)?



freyar said:


> I'd also be fine with statting up a shaman.




Do you think we should max them out and create a Shaman that was a 6th level (Chislev worshiping) druid?



freyar said:


> Giving them craft skills is also a good idea.




Thanks.


----------



## freyar (Aug 9, 2008)

Big Mac said:


> You are right. I should have said 5th level. I mixed up spell level with spellcasting level. Doh!
> 
> Is there a lot of precident for giving monsters more spellcasting oomph than the lowest level needed to cast the spells?
> 
> With swamp giants having 15 HD an LA of just +5 is going to make their ECL so high that they become epic as 0 level PCs.



Well, I don't think there's a hard and fast rule, but caster level for SLAs is often equal to (or at least close to) HD.



> Is favored enemy (dragon) too broad? Should we narrow it down to favored enemy (green dragon)?



It's probably not much of a big deal either way, but the standard favored enemy feature works by type.  Narrowing it down to green dragons only would also make it kind of extra baggage except in green-dragon-intensive settings (like Chislev).



> Do you think we should max them out and create a Shaman that was a 6th level (Chislev worshiping) druid?




Not sure what you mean by maxing out, but 6th level druid works for me.


----------



## Big Mac (Aug 10, 2008)

OK. Lets see what we can work out from Sully - the swamp giant king.



Big Mac said:


> *Name:* Sully Gatherer-Clan




Looks like they use a forename and then their clan name.



Big Mac said:


> *Occupation:* Swamp Giant King
> Str: 24
> Int: 10
> Dex: 12
> ...




These stats are both above and below what Shade has. Sully has 96 points in total and Shade's swamp giant has 100 points.



Big Mac said:


> Sully of the Harvest Clan has served as king of the swamp giants for the past three decades.




Now they call him Sullly of the Harvest Clan. Looks like an editing cock-up to me.



Big Mac said:


> Well into middle-age for a swamp giant, he works to retain his great strength and health, knowing that if he begins to weaken he will be challenged for the kingship.




Looks like anyone can theoretically become a swamp giant king. (And anyone can theoretically become a swamp giant tribe leader.)



Big Mac said:


> Sully is the only swamp giant who has been off of Chislev, and he is the only giant on his world to truly have mastered hand-to-hand fighting techniques. As a child, he was captured by spelljamming pirates and sold into slavery to an unscupulous land baron in Shou Lung. Escaping after four years of hard labor, the young giant was befriended by a band of Shou Lung adventurers who took to the stars aboard a spelljammer. Sully accompanied them, and eventually their travels took them back to Sully's home. It was because of Sully that the Shou Lung group decided to explor the planet.




Interesting (at least to me) but not much use for game stats (unless you want to convert Sully and give him Oriental Adventures fighting skills).



Big Mac said:


> Sully became king at age 60, after killing an adult green dragon with his bare hands. He has ruled the swamp giants well, appointing leaders over the communities and meeting with these leaders to discuss various common problems. A prime concern is the aggressive green dragons. Sully has passed down combat techniques he learned in Shou Lung, which have proved fairly effective in fighting the great lizards. Still, he has not been able to obliterate the threat.




So not only do the swamp giants not have a hereditary king, they also do not retain their kings for life. But if Sully killed a green dragon (rather than an eariler king) it would seem that kings perhaps compete against challangers rather than fight them.

If tribal leaders are apointed by the king then members of tribes probably don't fight to settle leadership contests.

It looks like all swamp giants could (theoretically) learn imported combat skills from Kara-Tur.



Big Mac said:


> It is because of Sully that spelljamming adventurers are welcomed by the swamp giants. Prior to Sully's return, these giants - like the humans and demihumans of Chislev - feared and sometimes attacked visitors. Tribes of giants not beholden to Sully are rumored to exist deep in the jungles.




This is interesting, but is mostly background material that doesn't affect the conversion. It does let us know that the lost tribes of swamp giants are more fearful of visitors and are more likely to attack them.



Big Mac said:


> Sully is cordial and cooperative with all neutral and good-aligned spelljamming visitors. He is quick to strike up trade agreements and to allow humans and demihumans to hire his people as guides. The swamp giants have learned which plants are most prized by humans and demihumans and have no qualms about allowing the small people to take as many plants as they can carry. The giants know there is no shortage of vegitation on Chislev.




Again this is background information is interesting, but mostly doesn't affect the conversion. It does let us know that swamp giants can be paid to serve as guides and are aware of the sort of plants that humans and demihumans (humanoids perhaps?) are most likely to want.


----------



## Big Mac (Aug 10, 2008)

freyar said:


> Well, I don't think there's a hard and fast rule, but caster level for SLAs is often equal to (or at least close to) HD.




Thanks for the info. I'll go with you (or others) on this.



freyar said:


> It's probably not much of a big deal either way, but the standard favored enemy feature works by type.  Narrowing it down to green dragons only would also make it kind of extra baggage except in green-dragon-intensive settings (like Chislev).




If all dragons makes these giants easier to reuse, I'll go with all dragons.



freyar said:


> Not sure what you mean by maxing out, but 6th level druid works for me.




IN this sentence: "For every 10 giants encountered, there is a 30% chance one is a shaman, a giant who is the equivalent of a 1st-6th level druid." The highest level for the shaman (druid) is 6th level. The Ogre Barbarian is 4th level and I thought it would be good to make the Swamp Giant Shaman a 6th level druid (which is the maximum under the 2nd edition rules).


----------



## Shade (Aug 19, 2008)

Wow...lots to sift through.

Addressing a few things...

I've updated them with the favored enemy (dragon) ability and CL 5th for SLAs.

Dragonhide armor, like adamantine and mithral, assumes masterwork quality in its construction.

Since their HD are so high, and LA will undoubtedly push them to epic levels, we have no need for a full "as characters" section, but rather the simplified entry used for cloud and storm giants.

I like the idea of a +2 on Craft checks related to wood.  How about a +4 racial bonus on Climb checks as well?

Skills: 18 (remember -2 armor check penalty)
Divvy among Climb, Craft (woodworking), Hide, Listen, Spot?

Feats: 6
Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Weapon Focus (spear)?

I'm fine with statting up both a shaman and King Sully.


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2008)

I like the feats and skill bonuses.  To split up the ranks, how about 3 each in Climb, Hide, Listen, Spot, and 6 in Craft?

These are looking pretty decent.  For the bags, how about some carved wood objects?


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2008)

Updated.

CR 10?  They seem on par with fire giants and not quite as tough as cloud giants.

Organization: Solitary, hunting party (2-3) or village (5-11 adults plus 5-11 infants and juveniles plus one 8th- to 12th-level leader and one 1st- to 6th-level shaman)?

A swamp giant stands about 16 feet tall and weighs about x pounds.  (Cloud giants are about 18 feet tall and weigh about 5,000 pounds, an adult forest giant stands 18 feet tall but weighs only 3,000 pounds, a frost giant is about 15 feet tall and weighs about 2,800 pounds)

A swamp giant's bag usually contains carved wooden objects, such as spoons and bowls, and x.

Most adult swamp giants are rangers. Those that become shamans are generally druids, although a rare few become clerics. A swamp giant cleric has access to two of the following domains: x, x, x, or x.


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2008)

CR, organization look fine.  4000 lb?  spoons, bowls, and small art objects.  For domains, how about Community, Plant, Strength, and Weather?

A thought just hit me: since they help people find useful plants, maybe Survival would be a good skill.  Since Hide isn't doing them much good anyway, want to swap those ranks into Survival?


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2008)

Domains look good.

Good suggestion for Survival...but let's not drop Hide, since that was part of their tactics (and it does become useful when their racial bonus in certain terrain kicks in).

How about borrowing 1 rank from each of the other skills (except Craft), which would give us...

Climb +13, Craft (woodworking) +7, Hide -5*, Listen +4, Spot +4, Survival +5


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## freyar (Aug 21, 2008)

I'm agreeable to that.  Shaman next?


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## Shade (Aug 21, 2008)

Sounds good.

Updated.

So, 6th-level druid?

Using elite array: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 8, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 10
Plus 1 ability increase at 4th-level (put into Wis)
Plus racial modifiers:  Str +18, Con +14, Int -2, Wis +4, Cha +4

Gives us:  Str 32, Dex 13, Con 22, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 14

Look OK?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 21, 2008)

Yes. Yes it does.


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## freyar (Aug 21, 2008)

Looks good.  The shaman gets 2 more feats and I think 30 more skill ranks.  5 more ranks in each skill listed?  Natural Spell and maybe Animal Affinity for the feats?


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## Shade (Aug 21, 2008)

Updated (added Shaman to bottom of entry).

I think we should put most of the druid skill ranks in Concentration, Knowledge (nature), and Spellcraft.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 21, 2008)

Replace Animal Affinity with Extend Spell, I think.


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## Shade (Aug 21, 2008)

Done.


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## freyar (Aug 22, 2008)

Works for me.  Suggested spells:
0 - Detect Magic (x2), Know Direction, Detect Poison, Purify Food & Drink
1 - Longstrider, Magic Fang, Hide from Animals, Pass without Trace, Speak with Animals
...


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## Shade (Sep 2, 2008)

Looks good.  How about these for the rest?

2nd--barkskin, tree shape, wood shape;
3rd--cure moderate wounds, speak with plants, plant growth;


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2008)

Looks good.  Ready for King Sully?


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2008)

Sure.   10th-level ranger?


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2008)

That would work, though the bit about Shou Lung makes me think about making him a monk.  (This might require some comments in the main swamp giant flavor section.)


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2008)

The Shou Disciple prestige class from Unapproachable East would be perfect.


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2008)

Shade said:


> The Shou Disciple prestige class from Unapproachable East would be perfect.



Too bad it's not core. 

What did you think about monk?  It would be unusual for a swamp giant, but otherwise I think it fits.  We could just put a flavor blurb that there are some lowish-level monks in his immediate clan.  The other thing is that monk goes well with killing a dragon with his bare hands.


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2008)

So, 10th-level monk?



> Occupation: Swamp Giant King
> Str: 24
> Int: 10
> Dex: 12
> ...




Using elite array: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 15
Plus 1 ability increase at 4th-level (put into Wis) and 8th-level (put into Wis)
Plus racial modifiers: Str +18, Con +14, Int -2, Wis +4, Cha +4

Gives us: Str 32, Dex 13, Con 24, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 19

Look OK?

Edit:  Added King Sully assuming the ability scores above.


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## freyar (Sep 9, 2008)

Those ability scores look pretty good to me.  How about Improved Grapple, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip for the monk bonus feats?


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2008)

Sounds good.

Suggested monk ranged weapon (choose from light crossbow, heavy crossbow, dagger, handaxe, javelin, shuriken, sling)?

We need 9 more feats (2 can be epic).  Some suggestions:  Awesome Blow, Deflect Arrows, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (unarmed strike), Iron Will, Negotiator, Power Attack, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)

We have 40 monk skill ranks to spend.  Maybe 16 ranks each in Diplomacy and Sense Motive, and 8 ranks each in Balance, Listen, Spot, Tumble?


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2008)

I like the javelin for the ranged weapon.  It's close to the spear but a little more refined.

The skills also look good.

I like your suggested feats, but I'm trying to find something epic to squeeze in there.  Is epic weapon focus worth it (maybe instead of IBR)?  Or we could go the route of overwhelming crit, but that takes up most of the feats to get the prereqs.


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2008)

Epic Weapon Focus adds +2, but the revised version requires Greater WF, for which he cannot qualify.  He could take Epic Prowess and gain a +1 on all attacks.   I should have suggested Epic Will rather than Iron Will, as IW isn't a prereq for EW.

It's too bad his Dex isn't higher, or he could take Legendary Wrestler.


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2008)

Where is epic weapon focus changed?  

Anyway, I like taking Epic Will vs IW and also Epic Prowess vs Weapon Focus.  

It really is too bad about his Dex; there are some other interesting feats that would have been good for him.  It's also too bad that there aren't any epic feats to improve Stunning Fist, for example.  Maybe Pathfinder will take a nice long look at epic rules sometime.


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2008)

freyar said:


> Where is epic weapon focus changed?




Complete Warrior.  Most of the martial epic feats were updated within, and mostly for the better.



freyar said:


> Anyway, I like taking Epic Will vs IW and also Epic Prowess vs Weapon Focus.




Sounds good.  I'll double-check to make sure WF isn't a prereq for any of his other feats.



freyar said:


> It really is too bad about his Dex; there are some other interesting feats that would have been good for him.  It's also too bad that there aren't any epic feats to improve Stunning Fist, for example.  Maybe Pathfinder will take a nice long look at epic rules sometime.




Sadly, most of the epic monk feats really require you to be a 20th-level monk or have really high Dex and Wis scores.


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2008)

Updated.

Shall we give him some magical gear?  I'd say a monk's belt is a no-brainer.  Maybe an amulet of mighty fists?


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## Echohawk (Sep 11, 2008)

Aside: I've just discovered two additional giants from the Dragonlance _Otherlands_ accessory, that I somehow managed to omit from my index previously: "Ogre, Mischta" and "Ogre, Nzunta".

So the oozes are back in a clear lead for the finish again, I'm afraid...


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2008)

Echohawk said:


> Aside: I've just discovered two additional giants from the Dragonlance _Otherlands_ accessory, that I somehow managed to omit from my index previously: "Ogre, Mischta" and "Ogre, Nzunta".
> 
> So the oozes are back in a clear lead for the finish again, I'm afraid...




No problem.  The more the merrier.  

Besides, if any more oozes are half as complicated as the carnivorous wall and imorph have turned out, the giants should easily regain the lead!


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2008)

Shade said:


> No problem.  The more the merrier.
> 
> Besides, if any more oozes are half as complicated as the carnivorous wall and imorph have turned out, the giants should easily regain the lead!



QFT. Those oozes are nuts! 

Back to Sully: agreed on those two pieces of equipment.  How about making that javelin magic, too?  Maybe +1 flaming or something?  Or is that too rich?


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2008)

Sure.

Updated.  All done?


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2008)

I'd venture to say so.


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## Shade (Sep 12, 2008)

Woo-hoo!

*Giant, Jungle*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical/jungle
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Tribal/cooperative
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average to High (8-14)
TREASURE: Q (A)
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1 or 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 15, cl 6
HIT DICE: 11
THACO: 9
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 or 2
DAMAGE/ ATTACK: 2-16+9 or 2-12+9/2-12+9
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Surprise, arrows
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: H (18' tall)
MORALE: Champion (16)
XP VALLUE: 6,000

Powerful, lanky, and strictly carnivorous, jungle giants are a terror to all the animals of the tropical forests. They are great hunters and stalkers, able to clear a huge tract of forest of all game and then move on.

A typical jungle giant stands 18' tall yet weighs only 3,000 pounds-very thin for a giant. Females are generally taller than males. They can live to be 200 years old.

Jungle giants always carry everything they need with them: tools for making and maintaining their weapons, firestarters, tinder, and spare bits of leather and sinew used to repair clothing.  They also carry their valuables, and every adult jungle giant carries a quiver of arrows.

Jungle giants speak their own language and the languages of tribes of nearby humans and humanoids.

Thin and very tall, jungle giants easily blend into the vertical landscape of the tropical forest. Their wavy hair is pale green, and their skin is a rich muddy yellow, like sunlight on the forest floor. They rarely wear more clothing than strictly necessary, as they prefer complete freedom of movement when hunting.
Many groups of jungle giants use ritual tattooing, colorful feather headdresses, and even filed teeth to show their fierceness. They sometimes decorate themselves with mud, sticks, and leaves when stalking especially large or wary game.

Combat: Jungle giants use 15' long bows crafted to take advantage of their tremendous size and strength. These giants are very quick with their huge bows and can fire two arrows each round.

They will use poisoned arrows to bring down their prey more quickly. if these arrows are used in combat, opponents must save vs. paralyzation at -2 or be rendered immobile for 2-12 turns. Even humanoid creatures with the strength to pull a jungle giant bow cannot use it, because the arrows are over 6' long (2d6 +9 damage). Jungle giants will occasionally use the trunk of a dead tree as a club, doing 2d8 +9 points damage.

Jungle giants prefer to take their prey from ambushes, firing their bows from the treetops and then swinging down sturdy branches or thick ropes to finish off their prey. Camouflaged giants cause a -1 penalty on opponents' surprise rolls. When setting up a blind, they can camouflage themselves in jungle terrain with a 60% chance of success. Setting up a blind or decorating themselves with jungle camouflage takes three turns.

Habitat/Society: Jungle giants are friendlier than most other races of giants, and they will often cooperate with human jungle tribes on hunts. The giants provide strength and raw power, and the humans provide the numbers and skill to drive animals into ambushes.

Jungle giants have absolutely no compunctions about eating any form of meat-mammal, reptile, amphibian, or avian. They know how to stalk, kill, and prepare everything from eggs to full-grown animals, and from scavengers to predators. Their villages reflect this carnivorous tendency; the huts are made from wooden posts with roofs of greased animal hides stitched together with intestines. The smell of smoking meats and butchery hang in the air, and huge quantities of dragonflies and other insects swarm around the villages. A jungle giant village is 50% likely to shelter 1-6 giant dragonflies.

Ecology: Jungle giants think of most creatures as prey, but those they accept as fellow hunters they respect as equals, regardless of their size. Although they much prefer the jungle terrain they know so well, they are often forced to leave the trees for the savanna when their numbers become too great to survive in the jungle. They think nothing of eating every snake, antelope, cat, warthog, ostrich, and elephant they come across. Jungle giants on the savannah often return to the forest, because their great height makes stealthy hunting difficult for them on open ground.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix (MC13)(1992).


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2008)

Interesting.  The flavor reminds me of tropical Pathfinder stone and rune giants somehow.

Huge, I guess, with 11HD?  Kind of small, and even Hill Giants have 12HD.  Before we do the stats, I guess we should decide if we want to increase the HD.  I'd be fine with bumping them to 15 HD or so.  It's low for a Huge giant, but at least it's more reasonable.


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## Shade (Sep 12, 2008)

How about 13 HD, like the also Huge forest giants?   They seem very, very similar.


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2008)

13HD works.  How are the abilities on the forest giant?


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## Shade (Sep 12, 2008)

freyar said:


> 13HD works.  How are the abilities on the forest giant?




Abilities: Str 33, Dex 12, Con 22, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 21
Special Attacks: Poisoned arrows, rock throwing
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., rock catching

Poison (Ex): Forest giants coat their arrows with poison (Fortitude save DC 22). The initial and secondary damage is the same (unconsciousness for 4d4 rounds).

Skills: A forest giant has a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks. *In wooded areas, this bonus rises to +8.

An adult forest giant stands 18 feet tall but weighs only 3,000 pounds.


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## freyar (Sep 13, 2008)

Hmm, maybe a little more Str, a little less Con?  Don't think these need a big Cha, either.  Since these are wiry, I could see more Dex, too.  Maybe Str 35, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 15?


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

Sounds good.  Added to Homebrews.



> Powerful, lanky, and strictly carnivorous, jungle giants are a terror to all the animals of the tropical forests. They are great hunters and stalkers, able to clear a huge tract of forest of all game and then move on.




Favored class: ranger?



> Jungle giants always carry everything they need with them: tools for making and maintaining their weapons, firestarters, tinder, and spare bits of leather and sinew used to repair clothing. They also carry their valuables, and every adult jungle giant carries a quiver of arrows.




Sounds like good giant's bag contents.



> Combat: Jungle giants use 15' long bows crafted to take advantage of their tremendous size and strength. These giants are very quick with their huge bows and can fire two arrows each round.




Rapid Shot as one of their feats?



> They will use poisoned arrows to bring down their prey more quickly. if these arrows are used in combat, opponents must save vs. paralyzation at -2 or be rendered immobile for 2-12 turns.




Here's what forest giants have:

Poison (Ex): Forest giants coat their arrows with poison (Fortitude save DC 22). The initial and secondary damage is the same (unconsciousness for 4d4 rounds). 



> Even humanoid creatures with the strength to pull a jungle giant bow cannot use it, because the arrows are over 6' long (2d6 +9 damage). Jungle giants will occasionally use the trunk of a dead tree as a club, doing 2d8 +9 points damage.




Mighty composite longbows (+9 Str bonus) and greatclub on attack lines?



> Jungle giants prefer to take their prey from ambushes, firing their bows from the treetops and then swinging down sturdy branches or thick ropes to finish off their prey. Camouflaged giants cause a -1 penalty on opponents' surprise rolls. When setting up a blind, they can camouflage themselves in jungle terrain with a 60% chance of success. Setting up a blind or decorating themselves with jungle camouflage takes three turns.




Same as forest giant:  +4 racial bonus on Hide checks. *In wooded areas, this bonus rises to +8?   Maybe increase to +12 if given time to prepare a blind?



> A jungle giant village is 50% likely to shelter 1-6 giant dragonflies.




Add to Org line?



> Ecology: Jungle giants think of most creatures as prey, but those they accept as fellow hunters they respect as equals, regardless of their size. Although they much prefer the jungle terrain they know so well, they are often forced to leave the trees for the savanna when their numbers become too great to survive in the jungle. They think nothing of eating every snake, antelope, cat, warthog, ostrich, and elephant they come across. Jungle giants on the savannah often return to the forest, because their great height makes stealthy hunting difficult for them on open ground.




Environment:  Warm forests and plains?


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

I'd be agreeable to all that.  Maybe switch the poison to paralysis for a reasonably similar length of time.


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2008)

Updated.

Rock throwing/catching?   Not all giants have it.  Forest giants have both, despite reliance on bows.  I'm ambivalent on the matter, as their bows will likely be superior options.

Organization is a bit tricky for these fellows.  We've already established that a village will contain 1d6 giant dragonflies along with the giants.   The # appearing lists only 1-6, which really isn't enough to constitute a village.  I figure that best represents a hunting party.   How many should a village constitute?

Skills: 48

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, 3 more


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

The original text doesn't seem to support rock throwing/catching.  Any examples of earlier edition giants without those that get them in 3.X?

How about 20-40 plus 1d10 children plus 1d6 giant dragonflies?

Hide 16, Move Silently 16, Survival 16?  Or do you want to put in Spot & Listen also?  (Maybe take 4 ranks off the first three each and put 6 each in Spot and Listen.)

Could go Dodge, Mobility, Shot on the Run if you want.


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2008)

Honestly, I can't think of any, but I think bows should more than suffice.

Updated.

The rest of the suggestions look good.  I followed your second suggestion, plus took four more ranks from Move Silently (so it would equal Hide), and put the remainder in Spot and Listen.


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

Yeah, I don't see a need for the rock stuff.

You know, Handle Animal might be a good skill for these also.  Maybe take 2 ranks each from Spot, Listen, and Survival and put 6 into Handle Animal?  It would help with the giant dragonflies.

CR 9?  Seems comparable to a frost giant and not quite as good as a fire giant.


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2008)

Great idea!  Let's take 4 from Survival and 1 each from Spot and Listen, though.

Do we want to include cleric domains for the characters section?  I'm thinking Animal and Strength, and maybe Community, Plant, Trickery, or Travel?


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

Of the 4 choices, I think I like Plant and Community best for these.  And I'm always fine with adding domains if we have decent ideas for them.


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2008)

Updated.

Done already?


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2008)

They look good!


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2008)

*Cave Lords*

AD&D Game:  AC 3; Mv 15; HD 6+6; THAC0 15; #AT 3 (claw/claw/bite); Dmg 1d8+2/1d8+2/1d6; SZ H (15' tall); INT Average-Very (8-12); ML 14; AL CE; XP 650.  These giants can leap up to 60 feet horizontally and 30 feet vertically.

The word "giant" is a relative term.  For humans such as myself, the phrase has definite connotations.  "Something much bigger than me" is how most people would probably sum up the word.  Something much bigger than a goblin might not seem quite so big to a human or elf.  Nevertheless, the goblins have their own giants, and these creatures are a most interesting breed.

These giants prefer that others not call them giants.  They prefer the term cave lord, but most goblins continue to call them goblin giants, at least behind their backs.  Average cave lords have all of the features one associates with goblins: flat faces, sharp gnashing teeth, pointed ears, and gray-green skin.  Their size and intelligence is what sets them apart from the rest of their kind.  Cave lords stand 9 to 10 feet tall, although some can grow to as large as 12 feet (making them true giants).  As impressive as their height may be, even more impressive is their girth.  Cave lords are obscenely obese, often weighing 600-700 lbs. and, in some cases, much more.

Despite their prodigious rolls of fat, the cave lords are actually strong and surprisingly quick.  In matters of manual dexterity, they are unsurpassed by any of their weaker goblin cousins.  They can move about quickly, especially in combat.  No doubt more than one opponent has fallen in battle because they thought the great goblinoid slow and weak.

The cave lord's strength is feared by the other goblins.  That fear allows the cave lord to command their respect and loyalty.  The most dangerous thing about facing a cave lord is not its strength or speed but its intelligent use of its goblin followers in battle. 

The origin of the cave lord remains unclear, although all current evidence points to the theory that cave lords are relatively new to Krynn.  Some say the cave lords are the product of some change brought on by the Chaos War, but no evidence to substantiate this theory exists.

The diet of the cave lord is quite peculiar.  They are carnivorous, living not only on animal meat but also on the flesh of other goblin races.  Although goblins do not normally practice cannibalism, apparently it is acceptable for a cave lord to eat lesser goblinkind, particularly kobolds.  Reliable reports state that some cave lords eat as many as five or six kobolds a day.  What's more, devouring these goblin morsels is always done in private and is often accompanied by chanting and the burning of strange herbs.  This is particularly odd, since goblin rulers usually take their meals communally so that they can display their personal wealth and power by eating more than everyone else.

Another interesting difference is that cave lords appear to hate the sunlight and might even suffer damage when exposed directly to the sun.  Although most goblins prefer dark places, they have little trouble moving about during the day.  No one has reported seeing a cave lord during the day, even when bands of goblins under its command are doing battle with the cave lord's foes.  One explanation is that the cave lords simply do not like to leave their underground homes.  In at least one instance a cave lord grew so fat in his throne room that he could no longer fit through the door leading outside.

Readers are advised to take special caution when dealing with these dangerous creatures.  They often seem willing to talk and even make alliances with others when, in fact, their hearts overflow with evil and treachery, and no cave lord should be taken at its word.  Of course the cave lords are also rumored to hoard treasure, and this tempatation might prove too great for some.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #256 (1999).


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2008)

Oh, these are kind of fun!

First off, they're actually fairly big despite the first paragraph.

Second, it's unclear to me whether we should go giant or goblinoid.  What do you think?  After reading all teh flavor, I'm leaning toward goblinoid.


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2008)

Why not Giant (Goblinoid)?


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2008)

Ooh, can we do that?

Ok, a little more seriously, bumping a bugbear to large gives Str 23, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 9 with +5 natural armor.  Want to fiddle with that any?  Leaves +3 for some regular armor.


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2008)

I see no reason we cannot.  

Bumping a goblin to Large yields...

Str 23, Dex 9, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 6

...which is pretty close to the results you derived from the bugbear.

Since these are supposed to be more dextrous than regular goblins, we should go to at least Dex 15.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 19, 2008)

I think we should bump both the Dex and the Con. Give them DR slashing or piercing (because bludgeoning weapons would bounce off of their fleshy bodies) and sunlight vulnerability (either light sensitivity or Con damage ala derro).


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## freyar (Sep 19, 2008)

Agreed w/DR and light sensitivity (though you could persuade me toward Con damage).

What about Str 23, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 9?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 19, 2008)

The wasting in sunlight is just a neat mechanic that's underused. I can gladly settle on light blindness, as per the drow.

Some thoughts on flavor. One: what's the relationship between cave lords and barghests? Both of them fill the "big, cannibal goblin-boss" dynamic. Second: now that kobolds aren't goblinoid anymore, we're going to have to make some minor alterations. Perhaps cave lords direct their goblinoid tribes to raid kobold warrens for delicious captives?


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## Shade (Sep 19, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> The wasting in sunlight is just a neat mechanic that's underused.




I agree, and for that reason, let's use it.  



demiurge1138 said:


> Some thoughts on flavor. One: what's the relationship between cave lords and barghests? Both of them fill the "big, cannibal goblin-boss" dynamic. Second: now that kobolds aren't goblinoid anymore, we're going to have to make some minor alterations. Perhaps cave lords direct their goblinoid tribes to raid kobold warrens for delicious captives?




I was wondering that myself.  That sounds like a good idea, and the cave lords may eat goblins if enough kobolds are captured to sate their hunger.  Talk about motivation!


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## freyar (Sep 20, 2008)

Con damage it is, then!

Now, I like that flavor!  Regarding barghests, perhaps there's a natural rivalry here?


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Sep 24, 2008)

Any other special abilities?  I'm almost inclined to make something out of the chanting and burning herbs while eating kobolds, but that could just be flavor text instead.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 24, 2008)

Maybe rend, as they seem sort of troll-ish.


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## Shade (Sep 24, 2008)

I like rend.  I'm not sure what to do with the herb bits.

Goblins have a +4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.
Hobgoblins have a +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
Norkers have a +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.

So how about a +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 24, 2008)

Sounds good! 

I'd be willing to make the chanting and herbs into flavor-text.


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## Filby (Sep 24, 2008)

A cave lord is about the size of a hill or stone giant, so shouldn't its size be Large rather than Huge?

Also, they're described as "obscenely obese" but have a listed weight of 600-700 lbs.; a hill giant's average weight is about 1,100 lbs., so a cave lord should weigh a good deal more than that.


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## Shade (Sep 24, 2008)

Nice catch, Filby!   The Huge was a leftover from cut and paste.  Corrected.

Hmmm...2,000 pounds?

Do we want to do anything with this?



> These giants can leap up to 60 feet horizontally and 30 feet vertically.


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## Filby (Sep 24, 2008)

Um... wow. That's kinda silly.

It could have a racial bonus to Jump maybe, but even so, an obese giant jumping around (in a cave, even) is a weird idea.


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## Shade (Sep 24, 2008)

Filby said:


> Um... wow. That's kinda silly.
> 
> It could have a racial bonus to Jump maybe, but even so, an obese giant jumping around (in a cave, even) is a weird idea.




Agreed.  I seem to recall the other giants in the article haveing similar listings.  It may have been a standard for the stat blocks of giants at some point to include that information.  We can probably disregard it.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 24, 2008)

That reminds me! We should give them some cavey powers. Things like getting racial bonuses when underground, squeezing without penalties, etc.


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## Shade (Sep 25, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> That reminds me! We should give them some cavey powers. Things like getting racial bonuses when underground, squeezing without penalties, etc.




Excellent suggestions.  For starters, we can repurpose your narrow berth ability.

Narrow Berth (Ex): Due to its narrow body, an anancus is treated as being one size smaller than it actually is for the purposes of squeezing (see page 149 of the Player’s Handbook for the rules for squeezing).


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 25, 2008)

Yeah, but cave lords are decidedly wide berth. We should make their ability supernatural, I think.


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## Shade (Sep 25, 2008)

Agreed.  Something like this?

Caveborn (Su): Despite its tremondous bulk, a cave lord can supernaturally alter its dimensions to travel through its subterranean realm.  It is treated as being one size smaller than it actually is for the purposes of squeezing (see page 149 of the Player’s Handbook for the rules for squeezing).


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## freyar (Sep 25, 2008)

Caveborn looks good.  If we still want to give them something, we could give them some ability never to get lost underground, but it's not necessary.

Filling in blanks: DR 10/S or P, claw +10, environment: any underground, organization: solitary or clan (1d4 plus 20-40 goblins?), 2000 lb, 100 yr?


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## Shade (Sep 25, 2008)

Updated.

I borrowed the tribe from the goblin organization line for consistency.

I left the attack modifiers off until we pick feats.

Skills: 18
Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot are common to goblinoid races
Intimidate and Bluff also make sense, based on the flavor text

Feats: 3
Alertness is common among goblinoid races

Challenge Rating: 5?  (They are about equal to a troll)



> Of course the cave lords are also rumored to hoard treasure, and this tempatation might prove too great for some.




Treasure: Double standard?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 26, 2008)

Alertness may be common, but it's a crappy feat.

Multiattack, Power Attack, Cleave.


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## Shade (Sep 26, 2008)

Those feats work for me.

For skills, how about:   Bluff 5, Intimidate 3, Listen 3, Move Silently 4, Spot 3?  Hide is probably pointless without a racial bonus (which doesn't make much sense with their immense bulk).

Advancement: By HD, by character class, or both?


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2008)

Skills and feats look good.  

I'm a bit confused.  Shouldn't the claw attack bonus be +10=+4 BAB +6 Str?


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## Echohawk (Sep 26, 2008)

Um. I've just noticed that the cave lords have actually already been updated to 3.5 in the _Bestiary of Krynn, Revised_. I do apologise for not noticing this earlier -- the BoK version treats them a large humanoids, rather than giants, which is why I missed them


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## Shade (Sep 26, 2008)

Echohawk said:


> Um. I've just noticed that the cave lords have actually already been updated to 3.5 in the _Bestiary of Krynn, Revised_. I do apologise for not noticing this earlier -- the BoK version treats them a large humanoids, rather than giants, which is why I missed them




No biggee.  I have no problem doing our own version.


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2008)

freyar said:


> I'm a bit confused.  Shouldn't the claw attack bonus be +10=+4 BAB +6 Str?




-1 Large size penalty.  

Updated.

Advancement: By HD, by character class, or both? 

Goblin giants can live to be x years old.

A goblin giant's bag usually contains ...


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## freyar (Sep 29, 2008)

Oops, forgot that for a sec!

Standard giants are just by character class, so we can stick with that.

150 years?  Probably sufficiently long compared to standard gobbos...

kobold bones, underground herbs, and other possessions?


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## Shade (Sep 30, 2008)

Here's the only reason I was considering HD advancement as well:

"A typical cave lord is 9 to 10 feet tall and obscenely obese, weighing nearly a ton.  Some grow to heights of 12 feet or more."

As characters...

Favored Class: Rogue?

Same deity/domains as goblins?  ("Goblin clerics worship Maglubiyet. A goblin cleric has access to two of the following domains: Chaos, Evil, or Trickery.")


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## freyar (Sep 30, 2008)

Let's see.  I'm willing to reconsider advancement.  Maybe by character class or 7-8HD (Large), 9-10 HD (Huge).  

I like the rest, I think.  I could also see favored class being fighter, your choice.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 1, 2008)

I think we should allow for both types of advancement.


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2008)

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Oct 1, 2008)

Looks good.


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2008)

*Lycanthrope, Giant Werebear (Polarwere)*

CLIMATE/TERRAIN Arctic lands
FREQUENCY Very rare
ORGANIZATION Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE Nocturnal
DIET Carnivorous
INTELLIGENCE Low to average (5-10)
TREASURE Z
ALIGNMENT Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING 1
ARMOR CLASS 1
MOVEMENT 12
HIT DICE 14
THAC0 6
NO. ATTACKS 3
DAMAGE/ ATTACK 3-13/3-13/2-20
SPECIAL ATTACKS Crush for 3-30; hug Large- or Huge-sized creatures for 4-16
SPECIAL DEFENSES Hit only by silver or +1 or better weapons; impervious to cold.
MAGIC RESISTANCE Nil
SIZE H (21')
MORALE Very Steady (13-14)
XP VALUE 8,400

Giant werebears are frost giants born with the ability to change into giant polar bears. Unlike their good-aligned lycanthrope cousins, polarweres are bitter, selfish creatures who care only for their next meal and a warm lair in which to sleep.

In giant form, the polarwere looks like a frost giant, albeit an especially broad-shouldered, hairy one. The polarwere rarely assumes this form, as frost giants are tribal and stand-offish. In ursine form, the polarwere resembles a giant polar bear, 10 feet tall at the shoulder and 20 feet tall when rearing on its hind legs.

Combat: Polarweres do not like combat and rarely attack unprovoked. When they fight-usually to feed-it is in bear form. Should a polarwere desire to fight in giant form, it usually wields weapons common to frost giants (throwing stones and battle-axes). In bear form, the polarwere attacks with two swiping claws and a devastating bite. Creatures of size medium or smaller hit by the polarwere's claws must also roll a successful Dexterity check or be knocked down; creatures of size medium or smaller bitten by the polarwere's bite must roll a Dexterity check at a -2 penalty or be snatched up in its jaws and crushed between its teeth every round thereafter for 3-30 points of damage. This attack requires saving throws vs. crushing blow for equipment and clothing. Unlike most lycanthropes, polarweres do not pass on their affliction to injured creatures unless the creature is a frost giant; frost giants suffer the normal 1% per hit point of damage chance of contracting the disease.

Polarweres share the typicallycanthropic immunities to normal weapons (in bear form only) and can be harmed only by silver or +1 or better magical weapons. Polarweres cannot summon normal bears like their smaller lycanthropic cousins, but they do share the werebear's ability to heal at three times the normal human rate. Polarweres are impervious to all forms of cold. They revert to bear form at death.

Habitat/Society: Polarweres mingle briefly with the tribal societies of frost giants. Indeed, some have lived among frost giant tribes for years, but normally they are solitary. They prefer to find huge caves hidden in arctic mountain ranges, far from even frost giant settlements; they are happiest when the only other living things they see are the ones they are about to eat. mating occurs on a haphazard basis, and only one young is ever produced from such an encounter. Females care for the young only until they can fend for themselves, at which time they either leave or are turned out by the mother.

Adventurers encountering polarweres can never be sure what to expect; the bear's reaction often depends on whether or not it is hungry, and whether or not the PCs look appetizing, but normally an unprovoked polarwere will not attack. A polarwere is extremely protective of its lair, however, and will chase invaders several miles across the arctic wastes if it catches them inside or nearby.

Ecology: Polarweres are at the top of their food chain. Their only natural enemies are the frost giants, who covet the huge pelts a dead polarwere provides, but a hungry polarwere will attack a frost giant if it is hungry enough. The land a polarwere hunts tend to be even more devoid of life than arctic areas normally are, as it takes a lot to fill a 21'-long bear; for this reason, polarwere territories tend to be many miles in radius, often taking the polarwere several days to roam them.

Originally appeared in Dragon #266 (1991).


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 9, 2008)

Are we going to stat this as just a frost giant were-polar bear (or were-dire bear?) or are we going to make it unique? Since it reverts to bear form, it almost makes me think therianthrope (like a wolfwere or jackalwere).


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2008)

Can therianthropes pass on their affliction?  If so, that could be a good idea.


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## GrayLinnorm (Nov 11, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Are we going to stat this as just a frost giant were-polar bear (or were-dire bear?)?





Or a dire polar bear (Frostburn)?


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2008)

I like the idea of a therianthropic dire polar bear.


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2008)

Shade said:


> I like the idea of a therianthropic dire polar bear.



Yes, sounds cool!  Is there a template in ToH to use?  (I seem to recall one.)  Want to add extra SAs?


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2008)

freyar said:


> Yes, sounds cool!  Is there a template in ToH to use?  (I seem to recall one.)  Want to add extra SAs?




There sure is.     And yes to the extra SAs.

I'll get this one started soon.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2008)

OK, added to Homebrews.

I applied the therianthrope template to a dire polar bear and added the cold subtype.

Before we get to the hybrid and giant forms, do we want it to be Large (like a typical frost giant) or huge?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 1, 2008)

Normal frost giant form should be large. Hybrid form should be huge.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2008)

Updated.

Stick with alternate form like lycanthropes, or borrow from Stormwrack's seawolf, as follows?

Change Shape (Su): A seawolf's natural form is that of a wolf-headed seal, but it can assume two other forms: a human or wolf-human hybrid. The human form is unique; a seawolf in human form always assumes the same appearance and traits, much as a lycanthrope would. In human form, a seawolf cannot use its bite attack, and it does not convey its curse.

In hybrid form, a seawolf's swim speed is reduce to 20 feet, but it has a much faster land speed, and it gains two claw attacks (or can use its claws to wield weapons, if it prefers). This form otherwise resembles the seawolf form.

A seawolf remains in one form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, nor does a seawolf revert to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell, however, reveals its natural form if it is in human form.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 1, 2008)

How does this modified change shape differ from alternate form? Those two always give me a headache...


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## freyar (Dec 2, 2008)

Differences between change shape and alternate form are:
1) Change Shape cannot grant aquatic subtype.
2) Change Shape lets you keep your natural armor, Alternate Form does natural armor of new form.
3) Alternate Form spells out that it does not grant Sp and Su abilities of new form, but this seems also implied in Change Shape.
4) In Change Shape, you keep your physical abilities; Alternate Form gives you Str, Dex, Con of new form (but hp don't change).

I'm guessing the dire polar bear has better natural armor and physical abilities (maybe?), so we probably want Change Shape.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2008)

And confusing the issue further, lycanthropes have the following modified alternate form ability...

Alternate Form (Su): A lycanthrope can assume the form of a specific animal (as indicated in its entry). It does not assume the ability scores of the animal, but instead adds the animal’s physical ability score modifiers to its own ability scores. A lycanthrope also can assume a bipedal hybrid form with prehensile hands and animalistic features.

Changing to or from animal or hybrid form is a standard action. A slain lycanthrope reverts to its humanoid form, although it remains dead. Separated body parts retain their animal form, however. Afflicted lycanthropes find this ability difficult to control (see Lycanthropy as an Affliction, below), but natural lycanthropes have full control over this power.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 2, 2008)

Let's go for lycanthropic alternate form, I think.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2008)

And here's the ability from the therianthrope template in Tome of Horrors...

Alternate Form (Su): A therianthrope’s natural form is that of the base animal. It can shift into two other forms as though using the polymorph spell on itself, though it does not regain hit points for changing forms, and only a specific human form or hybrid form can be assumed. Equipment carried by the therianthrope in human or hybrid form shifts with it and is absorbed into its animal form. Magic items do not function while in this form. When a therianthrope shifts back into human or hybrid form, equipment (including magic items) returns to normal and function normally.

A therianthrope’s first form is that of a human. A therianthrope always assumes the same appearance and traits in human form. In this form, it cannot use its natural weapons or any extraordinary special attacks. It can wield weapons and wear armor however.

Its second form is a bipedal hybrid form with prehensile hands and animalistic features. The therianthrope retains its natural attacks and extraordinary special attacks in this form, and can also wield weapons or wear armor.

Changing forms is a standard action. A slain therianthrope reverts to its animal form, although it remains dead. Separated body parts retain their human or hybrid form, however.


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2008)

Hmm, does polymorph work more like Change Shape or Alternate Form?  I'd say we should streamline the therianthrope's ability to get rid of the explicit reference to polymorph (following the usual errata).

I kind of think the lycanthrope's version of alternate form is a little odd to use here.  With the lycanthrope, it's clearly intended to supplement the physical attributes of the (presumably weaker) humanoid or giant when it takes hybrid or animal form.  But in our case, the dire polar bear is probably already hugely strong, so does it make sense for it to get stronger when it shifts to giant form?


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

How's this?

Alternate Form (Su): A polarwere's natural form is that of a dire polar bear.
It can assume the form of a specific frost giant (as indicated in its entry). It does not assume the ability scores of the giant (but does apply a size penalty to Str to account for its smaller size in this form). A polarwere also can assume a bipedal hybrid form with prehensile hands and animalistic features.

Equipment carried by the polarwere in giant or hybrid form shifts with it and is absorbed into its polar bear form. Magic items do not function while in this form. When a polarwere shifts back into giant or hybrid form, equipment (including magic items) returns to normal and function normally.

In frost giant form, a polarwere cannot use its natural weapons or any extraordinary special attacks. It can wield weapons and wear armor however.

In hybrid form, the polarwere retains its natural attacks and extraordinary special attacks and can also wield weapons or wear armor.

Changing to or from animal or hybrid form is a standard action. A slain polarwere reverts to its polar bear form, although it remains dead. Separated body parts retain their animal form, however.


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2008)

So I think this is more of Change Shape (modified to include the size penalty to Str).  Generally, I think this is about right, but maybe the frost giant form should get increased Dex for being smaller.  What do you think?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 4, 2008)

Agreed that if they get less Str as a giant, they should also get more Dex.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

Sounds good, as long as we don't have to deal with a reduction in Con!


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 4, 2008)

Yeah, that would be no fun for anyone involved.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 5, 2008)

Looks pretty good.  I don't think the giant form gets Improved Grab (from the combat section), though.  From the original text, it seems to me that the bear form either gets Worry or Chew to go with Imp Grab. 

If this works like a lycanthrope, the giant form shouldn't get DR, but I don't know about therianthropes.

Want to give the hybrid form something like Rend to give the polarwere a reason to ue the hybrid form?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 5, 2008)

I like giving the hybrid rend, but am ambivalent on worry.


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2008)

Let's go with rend, but leave off worry, as the original dire polar bear doesn't have it.

I'll drop the DR from frost giant form, too.

Updated.

Skills: 42 ranks (its base creatures have Climb, Craft, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Spot, Swim)

Do we want to mix these up a bit?
Dire Polar Bear Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Improved Natural Armor, Run, Toughness (x2), Track (B), Weapon Focus (claw)
Frost Giant Feats: Feats: Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Power Attack


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## freyar (Dec 5, 2008)

I'd say 6 ranks each in each except Craft.

Let's drop the 2 Toughnesses and Imp Nat Armor from the bear and add Power Attack, Cleave, and either Great Cleave or Imp Overrun.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 6, 2008)

I say Great Cleave. The image of one of these guys rending through an entire legion of soldiers is too good to pass up.

Do we want to give them some sort of magical ability? Other therianthropes have them, like sleep gaze and charm gaze, sort of thing.


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## freyar (Dec 6, 2008)

Well, they seem to be able to spread the "curse of therianthropy" to frost giants, so that's probably one.  I kind of like the rage option from ToH for these, too.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

freyar said:


> Well, they seem to be able to spread the "curse of therianthropy" to frost giants, so that's probably one.  I kind of like the rage option from ToH for these, too.




This one?



			
				Tome of Horrors said:
			
		

> Battle Frenzy (Ex): This special attack functions only when the therianthrope is in animal or hybrid form. It does not stack with any other rage or battle frenzy ability the base animal may possess.  Once per day, the therianthrope can work itself into a battle frenzy similar to the barbarian’s rage (+4 Str, +4 Con, +2 morale bonus on Will saves, -2 AC penalty). The frenzy lasts for a number of rounds equal to the therianthrope’s HD, and the therianthrope suffers no ill effects afterwards.




If so, I say, "hell yeah!"

I could also see one of these...



			
				Tome of Horrors said:
			
		

> Fear (Su): This special attack functions only when the therianthrope is in animal or hybrid form. The therianthrope can, by making a loud sound appropriate to its natural animal form (roaring, barking, braying, or the like), unleash a frightening blast of sound. All creatures within 30 feet that hear it must succeed on a Will save or become panicked for 2d4 rounds. Creatures further away but within 200 feet must succeed on a Will save or become frightened for 2d4 rounds. This is a sonic, mind-affecting fear effect. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same therianthrope’s fear for one day. A therianthrope is immune to its own fear effect and the fear effect of other therianthropes of the same base animal type.






			
				Tome of Horrors said:
			
		

> Summon Animals (Sp): Once per day, the therianthrope can summon a number of animals of its same type whose total Hit Dice do not exceed twice its Hit Dice (for example, a 3 HD wolfwere could summon 6 HD worth of wolves or 1 dire wolf once per day).




Also, good point on the "curse of lycanthropy" as well, although I think it should probably be modified to actually create a new polarwere, rather than apply the lycanthrope template.


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2008)

Shade said:


> This one?
> If so, I say, "hell yeah!"



Yup, that one. 



> I could also see one of these...



Well, given this:


			
				original text said:
			
		

> Polarweres cannot summon normal bears like their smaller lycanthropic cousins, but they do share the werebear's ability to heal at three times the normal human rate.



I think not the summoning one.  I'm not entirely fond of fear for this either, but I could be convinced.  Maybe it should get fast healing or some sort of accelerated healing when it rests.



> Also, good point on the "curse of lycanthropy" as well, although I think it should probably be modified to actually create a new polarwere, rather than apply the lycanthrope template.




I agree with that.  And limit it to frost giants.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 8, 2008)

I could see fear, but battle rage works much better, methinks.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

Battle frenzy it is!

Shall we just simplify increased healing to normal fast healing?

How's this?

Curse of the Polarwere (Su): Any frost giant hit by a polarwere's bite attack must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or become a polarwere.  The frost giant loses all abilities it possessed prior to transformation, but does retain any equipment it carried.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 8, 2008)

Can a frost giant even fail a DC 15 Fort save?


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Can a frost giant even fail a DC 15 Fort save?




It would definitely be unlikely, except on a "1".  Change to Con-based, standards be damned?

Shall we add this?

Polar Bear Empathy (Ex): In any form, polarweres can communicate and empathize with normal or dire polar bears. This gives them a +4 racial bonus on checks when influencing the animal’s attitude and allows the communication of simple concepts and (if the animal is friendly) commands, such as "friend," "foe," "flee," and "attack."


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 8, 2008)

Polar bear empathy, yes. And I agree to damning standards.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

Agreed to all of that.  

Want to allow advancement by character class, so a cursed frost giant could keep its class abilities?


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Updated.

Fast healing:  yea or nay?

In bear form, polarweres are over 20 feet in length and weigh over 15,000 pounds. In frost giant form, polarweres are about 15 feet tall and weigh about 2,800 pounds. *In hybrid form, polarweres are about x feet tall and weigh about x pounds. *

A polarwere speaks Giant?



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Want to allow advancement by character class, so a cursed frost giant could keep its class abilities?




I'm ambivalent.  It seems like they really are only concerned with eating, but I don't really see it as problematic, either, as long as it doesn't necessitate a template.


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## GrayLinnorm (Dec 9, 2008)

17 feet tall and 8,900 pounds for hybrid?

All the therianthropes in Tome of Horrors advance by character class, as does the official version of the jackalwere.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

In that case, consider me convinced.  

Updated.

I think all that is left is to determine whether to give 'em fast healing.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

Maybe fast healing 1.  The original text is more like accelerated healing when resting, like recovering more than # HD per night of rest (I feel like there are critters with this ability somewhere, but I can't remember where I think I saw that).  But I could do a little fast healing if the other is too much trouble.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

You may be thinking of the "long-term care" aspect of the Heal skill, or the Faster Healing feat in Complete Warrior.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

Faster Healing seems to be more what we're looking for.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Condensing the feat into an ability...

Faster Healing (Ex):  A polarwere recovers hit points or ability score points (lost to ability damage) at twice the normal rate: 2 hit points per HD for a full 8 hours of rest in a day, or 4 hit points per HD for each full day of complete rest; 2 ability score points for a full 8 hours of rest in a day, or 4 ability score points for each full day of complete rest.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Yup, that sounds right.  I still have a feeling I've seen a critter with a similar ability before.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

Looks good to me too.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Updated.  All done?


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Let's say that a cursed frost giant "loses all abilities it possessed prior to transformation except for those due to levels in character classes" and I'm happy.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Done.  And done?


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Looks good!


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

Done!


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

*Giant, Fhoimorien*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Forest, marsh, or subterranean
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Family
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: Qx10 (D)
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 13+3
THAC0: 9
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK:  weapon x2 or 2d4 (fist)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Hurl rocks; +8 melee damage; spells (warlocks)
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Surprised only on a 1; gaseous form
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: H (13' tall)
MORALE: Elite (14)
XP VALUE: 6,000 (Warlock: 9,000)

Like other Cerilian giants, the misshapen fhoimoriens are elemental creatures, closely tied to the earth.  No two look alike, for the parts of their bodies are oddly proportioned and positioned.  Their facial features are irregular, deformed, or misplaced.  Their hair is tough and patchy; and many have warts.  They move slowly, with shambling gaits.  Their cruelty and foul habits match their foul appearance; they are extremely fond of launching raids into nearby lands.

Unlike the fomorian giants, their even more bestial cousins found in other lands, most fhoimoriens can hurl rocks (up to 210 yards for 2d8 points of damage), and many use magic as well.  All fhoimoriens use clubs and other blunt instruments in combat; these inflict double normal damage.  The great strength and prowess of the fhoimoriens allow them to inflict another +8 points of damage with any melee attack.

All fhoimoriens can cast stone speak/stone tell, animate stone, and passwall once per day.  Twice per day, fhoimoriens can assume gaseous form as a cloud of pale blackish-green, foul-smelling smoke.  Most use this ability only to escape pursuit, but the more intelligent ones make greater use of it. For example, they may hurl boulders from across a chasm, then suddenly cross in gaseous form to finish off the target; or use gaseous form to cross a deep river or reach tall spires of rock from which they can bombard targets below.

Many fhoimoriens are warlocks, perhaps as many as a third.  These spellcasters use elemental earth and air magic in battle, functioning as wizards of levels 1-6.  Such warlocks prefer spells such as stone fist, Maximillian’s earthen grasp, gust of wind, and shocking grasp.

Fhoimoriens inhabit desolate marshes and forests from the seashores to the mountains, as well as living in deep caves.  On Cerilia, they are most numerous in the Giantdowns (including in the Silverhead Mountains) and in the Icemarch (in the Grovnekevic Forest).

Originally appeared in Warlock of the Stonecrowns (1995).


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2008)

Should we base physical stats on fomorians, either MM2 or CC version?

Want to make wizards or sorcerers favored class to go with the warlock thing?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2008)

It hardly strikes me as a mechanically favored class, though. They're big and strong--generally, favored class in spellcasting means existing spellcasting levels and/or (usually and) high mental stats.


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> It hardly strikes me as a mechanically favored class, though. They're big and strong--generally, favored class in spellcasting means existing spellcasting levels and/or (usually and) high mental stats.



Yeah, this is clearly a flavor issue.  But we could give them high Cha and go the sorc route.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2008)

We could go ahead and give them a little racial sorcerer casting, although that wouldn't follow the letter of the text.


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2008)

I'd be fine with a level or two of that, also.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

Comparing to the 2e Fomorian giant, they are nearly identical except for the additional abilities.  Essentially, they are variant fomorians.

In that case, do we want to simply take the 3e fomorian and modify it?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

Let's do that, although (being 3.0) it'll require some tweaking.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

Works for me, too.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

Here are the stats post-3.5 conversion guide...

Huge Giant
Hit Dice: 15d8+90 (157 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 21 (-2 size, +1 Dex, +9 natural, +3 hide armor), touch 9, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +11/+31
Attack: Gargantuan heavy flail +21 melee (4d6+18/19–20) or slam +21 melee (1d8+12)
Full Attack: Gargantuan heavy flail +21/+16/+11 melee (4d6+18/19–20) or 2 slams +21 melee (1d8+12)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Trample 2d10+18
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/-, fast healing 5, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +15, Ref +6, Will +6
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 12, Con 22, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 9
Skills: Listen +3, Move Silently +29, Spot +21
Feats: Alertness, Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack, Track
Environment: Any mountains and underground
Organization: Solitary, pair, or gang (3-5)
Challenge Rating: 11
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually neutral evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +4

Trample (Ex): As a standard action during its turn each round, a fomorian can trample opponents at least one size category smaller than itself. This attack deals 2d10+18 points of bludgeoning damage. A trampled opponent can attempt either an attack of opportunity at a -4 penalty or a Reflex save (DC 29) for half damage. The save DC is Strength-based.

Skills: A fomorian has a +10 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

Well, with Track as a feat, you'd think they'd have ranks in Survival. Stupid, sloppy conversion guide.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Well, with Track as a feat, you'd think they'd have ranks in Survival. Stupid, sloppy conversion guide.



We'll have to fix that.

Take the same abilities but boost Cha to 15 or 17?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

Maybe make them a wee bit weaker if we're aiming for the same CR.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

That's ok, though I'm fine with just boosting the CR, given the extra SLAs and even racial spellcasting we're thinking about giving them.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Well, with Track as a feat, you'd think they'd have ranks in Survival. Stupid, sloppy conversion guide.




On top of that, they are short 1 feat.  

Let's try boosting Cha to 15 and see where we're at.  

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

Looks ok.

SLAs: 2/day - gaseous form, 1/day - stone tell, animate objects (stones only), passwall.  Caster Level X.  ??


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

CL = 15th?


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> CL = 15th?



Sounds right.  I think the usual rock throwing/catching, and that's about it, right?


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Updated.

Do we want to retain the fomorian's oversized heavy flail?   If so, I think we need to give them the following ability rather than just listing a bigger weapon on the attack lines.

Oversized Weapon (Ex): A titan wields a great, two-handed warhammer (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty.


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## freyar (Dec 23, 2008)

The weapons do say they do x2 damage, so that sounds reasonable.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

Agreed to oversized weapon.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 36
Fomorian has Listen +3, Move Silently +29, Spot +21

Demiurge pointed out upthread that they need Survival to go with Track.  Additionally, it probably should have Concentration and maybe Spellcraft and/or Knowledge (arcana) to go along with its spellcasting.

Feats: 6
Fomorian has Alertness, Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack, Track


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

Move Silently doesn't make much sense for me. How about 9 ranks each in Listen, Spot, Survival and Concentration?


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Sounds pretty good.  How about pilfering a few ranks from each for Use Magic Device.  Maybe Concentration 8, Listen 7, Spot 7, Survival 8, Use Magic Device 6?

For the feats, I could see ditching Cleave and Great Cleave for more magically-focused feats.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

Good call on UMD. How about ditching Cleave and Great Cleave for Skill Focus (UMD) and Scribe Scroll? If we bumped their racial sorcerer casting to 3rd, we could give them Brew Potion instead, which I think fits better with their flavor.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Yeah, that's a good idea.

We can actually go with both Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion, as we have 1 feat leftover.

Updated.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

If we're putting it at CL 3, I'd rather have Craft Wondrous Item than Scribe Scroll. I like the idea of them making little baubles out of shells, rocks or teeth, or cloaks of resistance made out of hides.


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## freyar (Dec 24, 2008)

Agreed with wondrous items.  We can put a few minor potions and items in the bag.

Spells:
0 - Resistance, Ghost Sounds, Mage Hand, Message, Detect Magic?
1 - Shield, Animate Rope, Ray of Enfeeblement?

I tried to pick a few that have good wondrous items associated.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 24, 2008)

Sounds pretty good to me.

The hide armor should grant a +4 bonus, not a +3. Although we could drop the armor altogether, since they have racial casting. Do we want to give them studded leather and armored casting instead?


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## Shade (Dec 24, 2008)

How about dropping armor altogether, and either replacing animate rope with mage armor, or replacing Alertness with Extra Spell (mage armor)?


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## freyar (Dec 24, 2008)

Let's replace Alertness.  Animate Rope is prereq for the Rope of Climbing (which is CL3).  Although, now that I think about it, these might be too heavy to use those ropes given that they're Huge.  So animate rope is not such a big deal after all.  Still, extra spell might not be a bad use of a feat anyway, given that Alertness probably isn't so good for them.


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## Shade (Dec 24, 2008)

Let's drop animate rope.  I went back and looked at Extra Spell, and it only allows a spell of one level lower than the creature's highest.  So, the giant would only get a cantrip.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 24, 2008)

Is Extra Spell in the SRD?


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## Shade (Dec 24, 2008)

Nope.  That would be a bit of fudging, since the feat is so self-explanatory.


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## Shade (Dec 30, 2008)

Updated.



> These spellcasters use elemental earth and air magic in battle




How's this?

A fhoimorien giant's favored class is sorcerer, and such sorcerers often select air or earth spells. A fhoimorien giant cleric has access to two of the following domains: Air, Destruction, Earth, and Evil.


An adult male fhoimorien giant stands over 16 feet tall and weighs x pounds. Females are generally taller than males. Fhoimorien giants can live to be x years old.

A fhoimorien giant's bag usually contains x.


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## freyar (Dec 30, 2008)

Looks good.

6000 lb? 200 yr?


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## Shade (Dec 30, 2008)

Updated.

Any thoughts on the contents of the giant's bag?   The fomorian has nothing listed.  I'm assuming throwing rocks at the very least.

CR 12?  The SLAs and two levels of spellcasting don't add a whole lot, nor does the rock throwing, but together they probably are worth at least a CR.


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## freyar (Dec 30, 2008)

CR is good, I think.

Rocks and minor magic items, such as a cloak of resistance, hand of the mage, brooch of shielding?


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2009)

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Jan 5, 2009)

Looks good!


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2009)

Looks good to me!


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## Echohawk (Jan 8, 2009)

Looking at the list of unconverted giants on the first page of this thread, I think that there are only four left now. The two Dragonlance ogres have already been converted elsewhere, leaving just these:
Earth giant (Dragon #256)
Gigantes (Legends & Lore 2e)
Spacesea giant (Monstrous Compendium Spelljammer Appendix)
Trow (Dragon #261)

Also, technically, the Trow isn't WotC's intellectual property since it is based on a Myth creature. It can probably be converted anyway though, since it did appear in a Dragon magazine.

There is also one other unconverted giant that isn't WotC's IP -- the Melnibonéan Mist Giant from the original _Deities and Demigods Cyclopedia_. I'm not sure if that would be fair game for conversion?


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

I think the trow is fair game, but not sure about the mist giant.  The fact that a 3e Elric game exists leads me toward "probably not a good idea".


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2009)

*Earth Giants (Rumblers):*  AC =8; MV 48; HD 26; THACO -3; #AT 2; Dmg 4d12 (stomp)/3d12 (fist); SD immune to fire and cold, half damage from electricity; MR 50%; SZ G (150’ tall and taller): INT genius (17-18); ML 15; AL N; XP 24,000.  The earth giant suffers 2d8 points of damage from stone shape spells, 3d8 from transmute rock to mud spells, and 8d6 from earthquake spells.

The earth giant are creatures so rare that most people have never heard of them.  Even within the rarefied circles of creature scholarship, few academics are aware that these powerful creatures ever existed.  Certain rare texts state that they wandered Krynn more freely during the Age of Dreams, but this might just be myth.  According to these texts, the earth giants (AKA rumblers) are immortal beings.  Since there is virtually no record of anyone or anything ever killing an earth giant, it is logical to assume that they live still. 

When active, an earth giant is an awesome sight.  Short of the great dragons of our age, it is likely that no creature larger than the earth giant has ever walked Krynn.  The earth giant stands well over 150 feet tall, and its body consists entirely of rock and stone, a walking mountain of earth.  The giant’s form resembles that of a human: two arms, two legs; a bulbous, barrel-shaped torso; and a roughly spherical head.  The giant’s feet are solid rock and often have no toes, resembling a foot inside a boot.  The hands have two to four large fingers and one opposable thumb.  The head is featureless except for a large, toothless rock mouth that is visible only when the giant speaks.

Earth giants apparently have magical senses rather than traditional eyes and ears.  According to legend, a moving earth giant is aware of everything that goes on within a mile of it, down to the movement of the smallest insect and the flattening of each blade of grass under its mighty feet.  These reports might be exaggerations, but it is certain that while the earth giants have no apparent eyes or ears, they can see and hear.  As mentioned above, they can also speak.  The voice of an earth giant is like thunder rolling through the mountains.  The simplest utterance sends livestock into a panic and drives a stake of fear through the bravest warrior’s heart.

Fortunately for most of those fear-struck warriors, earth giants are not creatures of evil.  Said to have existed since Krynn itself came into existence, the earth giants have no malice in their stone hearts.  They have no known enemies, primarily because there are few things in existence that could cause them serious harm.  Some stories speak of earth giants and dragons engaging in titanic battles, but most of these come from less than reliable sources.  Nevertheless, the stories state that in one instance a pack of five great blue dragons managed to smash an earth giant into pieces using repeated blasts of lightning.  While the story seems somewhat fantastical, it could be true.  If so, it is the only recorded instance of an earth giant dying.

The earth giants are reported to be quite intelligent, although they have a hard time relating to other intelligent beings.  Still, on occasion, earth giants and lesser creatures have manage to communicate.  The earth giants, with their perfect memories and almost omniscient awareness of their surroundings, are amazing sources of knowledge.  A scholar could easily spend the rest of his life speaking with an earth giant and never scratch the surface of the creature’s knowledge.  Of course, no earth giant would ever spend that much time talking to mere mortal.  When they do deign to speak, they often answer only a few questions.  Still, if these are the right questions, the answers can be invaluable.

The obvious question is, if these things exist, where are they?  Why has no one seen them for ages?  To answer the last question first, there have been a few unconfirmed sightings of earth giants over the past few centuries.  In one instance, several centuries ago, an entire village in Ergoth flew into a panic when an earth giant wandered through their fields.  Still, such sightings are extremely rare.  We seldom see earth giants because, most of the time, they are asleep.

Earth giants spend centuries at a time sleeping.  While they rest, they take in energy from the sun and soil around them, much as plants do.  Once their resting spot no longer provides the energy they need, they wake and move on.  A sleeping earth giant looks exactly like a large, rocky hill.  It simply lies down in a field, half buried in the earth.  Dirt accumulates on its body, plants grow, and mortals might even build houses on it.  None of this activity disturbs the earth giant in the least.  Only when someone tries to chip off a large piece of it to make a wall or house does the giant rouse itself from its slumber.  Then there might be trouble, or perhaps the giant might simply shift in its sleep, scaring the intruders and discouraging any further “mining.”

Legend has it that certain spells can rouse an earth giant from its slumber.  No doubt these spells vanished with the passing of the gods from the land, but even if they remained, it would seem ill advised to awaken such a powerful being.  Should you find an earth giant’s resting spot, tread carefully.  You might have passed by such a place every day for years without disturbing the buried colossus, yet tomorrow it might wake up.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #256 (1999).


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 15, 2009)

Alright! A truly giant giant!


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Alright! A truly giant giant!



No joke!  Colossal+ maybe even!

These feel like they should maybe have more than 26HD, too.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

True.  The Huge death giants have 23 HD, eldritch giants 25 HD, and geriviars 26 HD.  The Colossal mountain giants have 30 HD.

I'm thinking at least 36 HD.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

I like 36 HD. With an enormous Con score on top of that, should be suitably durable.


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2009)

36HD and very high Con work for me.  

Blindsight or blindsense out to a mile?


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

If we take a storm giant and advance it to Colossal, we get the following physical ability scores:

Str 55, Dex 14, Con 31.

The mountain giant has Con 37, so I'd like to go higher.  I don't really see them with a Dex bonus, either.

How about Str 55, Dex 10, Con 45?

They are of genius Intelligence (17-18).  That's just a hair higher than a storm giant, and the same as an eldritch giant.  Since these guys are supposed to be walking knowledge depositories, and rival dragons in age, I'm thinking we should borrow mental stats from one of the mid-tier great wyrm dragons.  Perhaps a blue?   Int 22, Wis 23, Cha 22?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

Str 55, Dex 10, Con 45, Int 22, Wis 23, Cha 22? Sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Earth subtype?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

Definitely Earth subtype.


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2009)

Looking good.


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2009)

> The earth giant suffers 2d8 points of damage from stone shape spells, 3d8 from transmute rock to mud spells, and 8d6 from earthquake spells.




Write this up similar to many golems, listing the specific spells, or simplify it to "any spell that affects earth deals 1d8 points of damage per spell level to an earth giant"?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 20, 2009)

Your second suggestion looks good. Will save for half?


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2009)

Sure.  How's this?

Vulnerable to Earth-Affecting Magic (Ex):  Any spell that affects earth or rock (such as earthquake, move earth, stone shape, and transmute rock to mud) deals 1d8 points of damage per spell level to an earth giant  (Will half).


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 20, 2009)

I might change the Will half parenthetical to a sentence--A successful Will save halves the damage taken. Parentheticals are more of a 3.0ism.


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## freyar (Jan 20, 2009)

It looks good to me.


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2009)

Updated.

Any other special abilities to add?  They're a bit vanilla right now.

Maybe something like this?

Knowledgeable (Ex): Baba Yaga makes Knowledge checks for any Knowledge skills as if she had a minimum of 10 ranks in that skill. To surpass the 10-rank minimum, she must assign more than 10 ranks to the skill as normal.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 20, 2009)

Knowledgable is good. Perhaps improved grab -> toss? Pummeling (the bludgeoning equivalent of Rend)? Some sort of "Earth call" ability where they damage creatures in a line or cone standing on the ground? A stomp attack that knocks people prone? Trample? Improved improvised weapons, so they can beat opponents with trees, mountain tops, churches, etc?


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2009)

All sound great.  Heck, they're big enough to be kaiju, so we might as well look through the kaiju template for some ideas to plunder as well...

Shockwave (Ex): As a standard action, the kaiju can rear up and come crashing to the earth. This causes a severe localized earth tremor, affecting all creatures standing on the ground within 100 feet of the kaiju. Creatures in this region must make Reflex saving throws (DC 10 + 1/2 the kaiju's Hit Dice + the kaiju's Strength modifier) or fall prone. Structures in this area suffer 4d6 points of damage.

Improved Trample [Kaiju feat] 
The kaiju is especially skilled at crushing buildings and foes underfoot.
Prerequisite: Kaiju template.
Benefit: If the kaiju tramples a creature, that creature does not gain an attack of opportunity against the kaiju. If the kaiju tramples a structure (building, ship, castle wall, and so on), its trample attack does double damage to it.
Normal: Trampling a creature provokes an attack of opportunity from that creature. Trampling a structure deals normal damage to the structure.

Penetrate Hardness [Kaiju feat] 
The kaiju's melee attacks can crush buildings and objects with ease.
Prerequisite: Kaiju template, Improved Critical.
Benefit: When the kaiju strikes an object using one of its melee attacks with the Improved Critical feat, the hardness of the object struck is halved for purposes of determining how much damage penetrates and applies.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 20, 2009)

Let's give them adamantine strike and Improved Sunder as a feat. Shockwave is basically what I was thinking of for the stomping attack.


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## freyar (Jan 21, 2009)

I think adding improved trample as an SA makes a lot of sense, and so do adamantine strike & Imp Sunder.  Shockwave is great!  

Thoughts on blindsense (or blindsight) out to a mile?



> As mentioned above, they can also speak. The voice of an earth giant is like thunder rolling through the mountains. The simplest utterance sends livestock into a panic and drives a stake of fear through the bravest warrior’s heart.



Frightful presence when speaking or something?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 21, 2009)

Good call on frightful presence.


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## Shade (Jan 22, 2009)

Great stuff!

Updated.

Shall we develop some of demiurge's other suggestions?

improved grab -> toss? 

Pummeling (the bludgeoning equivalent of Rend)? 

Some sort of "Earth call" ability where they damage creatures in a line or cone standing on the ground? 

Improved improvised weapons, so they can beat opponents with trees, mountain tops, churches, etc?


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## freyar (Jan 22, 2009)

Yes to toss, yes to Pummel.  Instead of earth call, what about adding some damage to shockwave, since it damages structures after all?  Improved improvised is also good; maybe we should give them the ignores hardness ability of treants to go along with that.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 22, 2009)

Freyar's got good suggestions all.


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2009)

Where was the pummel ability used again? 

Here's the toss ability:



> Toss (Ex): Woolly mammoths vigorously shake any creature caught in their tusks and fling it in a random direction. Resolve the toss as a bull rush maneuver (+20 check modifier), except that there is no attack of opportunity, since the woolly mammoth has already grabbed its foe when it tries to toss the victim. The woolly mammoth does not need to move with its foe in order to to throw its foe more than 5 feet. If the tossed victim beats the woolly mammoth's bull rush check, he remains in his current square with no ill effects and is not grappled any longer. Tossed victims take impact damage on landing as if they had fallen a distance equal to the distance they were tossed.




Would Snatch work better?



> Snatch [General]
> The creature can grab opponents much smaller than itself and hold them in its mouth or claw.
> Prerequisite: Size Huge or larger.
> Benefits: The creature can choose to start a grapple when it hits with a claw or bite attack, as though it had the improved grab special attack. If the creature gets a hold on a creature three or more sizes smaller, it squeezes each round for automatic bite or claw damage. A snatched opponent held in the creature’s mouth is not allowed a Reflex save against the creature’s breath weapon, if it has one.
> The creature can drop a creature it has snatched as a free action or use a standard action to fling it aside. A flung creature travels 1d6 x 10 feet, and takes 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet traveled. If the creature flings a snatched opponent while flying, the opponent takes this amount or falling damage, whichever is greater.




Alternatively, there's this...



> Fling (Ex): As a standard action, an ice serpent may make a single powerful blow with its tail. If it hits a corporeal opponent smaller than itself with its tail lash, its opponent must succeed on a Reflex save (DC = damage dealt) or be knocked flying in a direction of the serpent's choice and fall prone. The opponent is moved 10 feet plus an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which it fails the save. The serpent can only push the opponent in a straight line, and the opponent can’t move closer to the serpent than the square it started in. If an obstacle prevents the completion of the opponent’s move, the opponent and the obstacle each take 1d6 points of damage, and the opponent stops in the space adjacent to the obstacle.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 23, 2009)

Snatch works fine, actually. It's big enough. 

Pummel was used for the ogre degenerates in Paizo's Classic Monsters Revisited, although I know we've used it for some giant or troll in this project before.


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2009)

Snatch is fine, I think.  But we might make it a bonus feat, you know, to juice these things up. 

Didn't we use pummel earlier in this thread?


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2009)

OK, I did some searching.  Oddly, we never used pummel.  We discussed using it for the sea giant, but the finished product has plain old rend.

If I understand correctly, pummel is simply rend with slam attack, with the added effect of make a Fort save or be dazed for 1 round?


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2009)

After looking around, I only found the sea giant, too.  But we did give the sea giant rend with slams.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 23, 2009)

The daze on a save isn't necessary... but I like it.


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2009)

Like so?

Pummel (Ex):  If an earth giant hits with both slam attacks, its attacks are especially punished and may knock the opponent senseless. This attack automatically deals an additional xdx+x points of damage, and the victim must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be dazed for 1 round.  The save DC is Strength-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 23, 2009)

Yep! Just need to fill in those Xs.


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## freyar (Jan 24, 2009)

Well the +x should be +33 (Str and a half).  The SRD creatures I find with rend (so far troll and gray render) have 1d6 claw damage and 2d6 rend.  That's either doubling or two steps improvement.  So, since we're starting here with 3d12, what about 4d12+33?  That's probably 2 steps.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 24, 2009)

It's doubling.


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## freyar (Jan 24, 2009)

6d12+33, then.

Is there somewhere rend listed as doubling + Str-and-a-half?  I couldn't find a general rule in the SRD.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 25, 2009)

I don't recall seeing it as a rule, but every example of rend I've ever seen has been double dice plus 1.5 Str.


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## Shade (Jan 27, 2009)

Man, the servers are SLOW.

Updated.


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## freyar (Jan 27, 2009)

And they're actually better today!

What do we think about giving it actual Knowledge ranks?  Let's definitely add Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Intimidate for skills.


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2009)

Hold that thought.  



Shade said:


> Some sort of "Earth call" ability where they damage creatures in a line or cone standing on the ground?
> 
> Improved improvised weapons, so they can beat opponents with trees, mountain tops, churches, etc?






freyar said:


> Instead of earth call, what about adding some damage to shockwave, since it damages structures after all?  Improved improvised is also good; maybe we should give them the ignores hardness ability of treants to go along with that.




Suggested added damage to shockwave?

How shall we work the improved improvised weapons?

Double Damage against Objects (Ex): A treant or animated tree that makes a full attack against an object or structure deals double damage.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 28, 2009)

4d12+Str damage to shockwave, ignores hardness?


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2009)

Why did I think treants ignored hardness?  I say let these ignore hardness and do double damage vs objects.  Maybe we can specify that they can rip things up when half the object's hp are gone or something.

4d12 damage for shockwave sounds fine.

Takes no penalties when using approriately sized objects as improvised weapons?


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2009)

Updated.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

Skills: 8 at 39 ranks



freyar said:


> What do we think about giving it actual Knowledge ranks?  Let's definitely add Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Intimidate for skills.




I think that is fine.  Knowledge (history) seems most likely, followed by local.


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2009)

I might go with nature or geography over local, but sure.

Tentative skill list:
Diplomacy, Gather Information?, Intimidate, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (geography)?, Sense Motive

I say we give it blindsight to 1 mile.  This means it doesn't need Spot or Listen.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 30, 2009)

I like local, nature, geography and history for its Knowledge skills.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

All sounds good.  Updated.

Feats: Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Snatch (B), 11 more (6 can be epic)


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2009)

Cleave, Great Cleave, Weapon Focus (slam), Improved Critical (slam), Power Critical (slam), Overwhelming Critical (slam), Devastating Critical (slam), Epic Weapon Focus (slam), Improved Bull Rush, Awesome Blow, 1 more?

It's frustrating that the epic feats are almost all tied to specific classes!


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2009)

Is Power Critical in the SRD?  If not, maybe take advantage of its crazy-high Con score and swap it for Fast Healing?

Yeah, the epic feats available are generally very limited.


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2009)

It's in the divine section.  I didn't pick the last feat, so Fast Healing is still good.  I generally don't like using feats that are basically monster special abilities, but it would allow someone to trade out for a better epic feat from another source if they can find one.


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2009)

Oh, cool!  I didn't know several of those feats were in there.

In that case, I'm fine with Power Critical.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 5, 2009)

I like Fast Healing.


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2009)

Ok, feats are settled.

How much natural armor?  I'm thinking in the +40 to +50 range, but I don't have a great feel for such high HD things as this.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 5, 2009)

Let's see 45 and see where that gets us.


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2009)

Armor Class: 47 (-8 size, +45 natural), touch 2, flat-footed 47


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 5, 2009)

Aw, that poor touch AC. But that AC looks good at first glance.


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2009)

Yeah, can't see much reason to give it a deflection bonus or anything similar.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

Updated.

Space/Reach: 150 ft./150 ft.?

Resistance to electricity 30?

Environment: Any land?

Alignment: Always neutral?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 6, 2009)

Hell, it's epic. We could boost the electricity resistance to 50 and it'd still be appropriate.


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## freyar (Feb 6, 2009)

All that sounds good, including resistance 50.

Treasure: Standard?
speak Common, Terran, Undercommon, Draconic, and possibly other region specific languages?


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

Updated (and added flavor text).

Challenge Rating: 24?  It seems about as tough as a stone colossus.

Advancement: 37+ HD (Colossal)?


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## freyar (Feb 6, 2009)

Sounds good.  Standard treasure?


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

Sure!  Updated.   All done?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 6, 2009)

I think so.


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## freyar (Feb 8, 2009)

Me too.


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm starting to feel guilty about how slowly we've been "finishing off" these poor giants.  It's like a coup de grace with a plastic spoon.  

*Giant, Spacesea*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Wildspace
FREQUENCY: Rare
OR&NIZATION: Tribal/ship
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: High (13-14)
TREASURE: W (F)
ALIGNMENT: Neutral good
NO. APPEARING: 11-20
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 14 + 1d4
THACO: 7
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10 or by weapon (10-20)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Hurling rocks for 3-30, or 1-3 hull points
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: H (18’ tall)
MORALE: Champion (16)
XP VALUE: 8,000

Spacesea giants, or rover giants, are an offshoot of the groundling stone giant race that has found its way into arcane space. The ancestors of these giants were brought to space as neogi slaves, but they eventually managed to escape.

Spacesea giants have hair, unlike their land-locked brethren. They exult in this, often growing their hair (and the males’ beards) to resemble that of their god, Ptah.

Combat: When battling from aboard their stone ships (see below), the giants prefer to engage in missile combat. Their ships’ ballistae and their own rock-hurling abilities give them a potent missile attack. They can hurl their boulders with a range of 500 yards (1 hex), causing 3dlO points of damage or ld3 points of hull damage per hit. All giant ships have a store of boulders for hurling and ship repair (see below).

When engaged in melee, spacesea giants use either great stone clubs or maces (2d6+8) or strike with a fist for IdlO points of damage or 1 point of hull damage per hit.

Habitat/Society: The first giants that escaped the neogi embraced the god Ptah, and they pleaded to him for aid. Ptah responded, granting them heightened intelligence, curiosity, and wisdom. In return for his aid, Ptah asked that the giants roam arcane space, to learn of its immensity and to appreciate its creator, their benefactor. The giants agreed, and they now rove far and wide throughout the spheres, learning and worshiping. As their intelligence has increased, so has their appreciation of art, as seen on the hulls and sails of their ships.

Almost all spacesea giants worship Ptah and devote their lives to the exploration of arcane space, with particular attention to wildspace. Many giants capitalize on this drive by hiring out as explorers, escorts, or scouts for other, non-evil races. Some giants make their living as merchants. Their large, sturdy ships excel in this capacity. Also, most pirates hesitate (to say the least) to attack a giant ship.

Giants can use, at least temporarily, any ship that can be modified to accept their bulk, but they prefer to use ships of their own construction. These resemble huge groundling galleons, made of solid stone. The ship’s statistics are as follows:

*Spacesea Giant Galleon*
Built by: Spacesea Giants
Used by: Spacesea Giants
Tonnage: 60 tons
crew: 11-20 Giants
Maneuver Class: E
Landing-Land: No
Landing-Water: Yes (it floats!)
Armor Rating: 3
Saves As: Thick stone
Power Type: Major or Minor helm
Ship’s Rating As for helmsman
Standard Armament: Various ballistae
Cargo: 30 tons
Keel Length: 200’
Beam Length: 50’

These ships are larger than a normal galleon to allow for the giants’ greater size. Like their groundling ancestors, spacesea giants feel more comfortable with a large mass of stone surrounding them. With the above exceptions, spacesea galleons are not much different from others of their type. 

Along with their intelligence increase, the frequency of elders and magic-using giants has gone up. For every ten giants, one is an elder who is able to use stone shape, stone tell, and transmute rock to mud spells, once per day, as a 7th-level mage. Of these elders, 50% can cast wizard or priest spells as 5th-level spellcasters.

It is these elders who man the helm; the oldest is most often the ship’s captain. They can also use their magical abilities, and the ever-present boulders, to repair hull damage to their ships. Each boulder yields enough material to repair Id4 points of hull or mast (but not rigging) damage. None of these magical powers are usable in the phlogiston.

Ecology: The main weakness of the spacesea giants is their need for air, and this is the reason the giants seldom venture into the phlogiston. To this end, most giant ships carry a garden of green plants to help replenish the air supply. These plants also serve as food for the giants and the ld4 giant goats each ship carries for dairy products (the goats also serve as convenient garbage disposals).

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Spelljammer Appendix (1990).


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2009)

Base stats on stone giants?


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2009)

I think so.  They appear to be little more than variant stone giants.   The bulk of the entry is flavor fitting them into the Spelljammer setting and ship mechanics.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

Int is a bit higher than 3.x stone giants.  Maybe boost mental stats a bit?


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

Here are the 2e stone giant stats for comparison...



			
				Stone Giant said:
			
		

> CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Sub-tropical and temperate mountains
> FREQUENCY: Rare
> ORGANIZATION: Tribal
> ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
> ...






			
				Spacesea Giant said:
			
		

> CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Wildspace
> FREQUENCY: Rare
> OR&NIZATION: Tribal/ship
> ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
> ...




It looks like 4 higher Int than stone giants, higher base slam damage, and different alignment, treasure, and organization.


Also...



			
				Stone Giant said:
			
		

> One in 20 stone giants develop special abilities related to their environment. These giant elders are able to stone shape, stone tell, and transmute rock to mud (or mud to rock) once per day as if they were 5th level mages. One in 10 of these exceptional giants can also cast spells as if he were a 3rd level wizard. Their spells can be determined randomly or chosen to fit a specific encounter as desired. Frequently these giants are able to rise to positions of power and are considered the leaders of several clans.






			
				Spacesea Giant said:
			
		

> Along with their intelligence increase, the frequency of elders and magic-using giants has gone up. For every ten giants, one is an elder who is able to use stone shape, stone tell, and transmute rock to mud spells, once per day, as a 7th-level mage. Of these elders, 50% can cast wizard or priest spells as 5th-level spellcasters.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2009)

So, should we make stats for a spacesea giant and then a statblock for a spacesea giant savant with five levels in cleric?


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

I'd agree with that.  And put in a sidebar about elders, like the stone giant has.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

Good ideas.

Do we want to raise Wis or Cha along with Int?


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

I'd say so, yes.  So Str 27, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 14?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2009)

Sounds good to me. I figured that the spacesea giant savant we statted up would have the appropriate SLAs, in addition to its cleric levels, but specifically calling them out in a sidebar as well is a good idea.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

Yeah, I just figure there should be elders that aren't also savants, that's all.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2009)

Skills: Climb, Jump, Listen, Spot?  Think maybe we should drop the racial Hide bonus?


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2009)

Skills sound good.  I think we can keep the Hide bonus, though, as it seems to be a result of their skin coloration.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 24, 2009)

Agreed to keeping the racial Hide bonus.


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2009)

Fine by me, then.


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2009)

Updated.

Environment: Space?

Organization: Solitary, gang (2–5), band (6–9 plus 35% noncombatants), hunting/raiding/trading party (6–9 plus 1 elder), or tribe (21–30 plus 35% noncombatants plus 1–3 elders and 1–4 giant goats)?

Challenge Rating: 9 (elder 10)?

Alignment: Usually neutral good?

Level Adjustment: +4 (elder +6)?


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2009)

Yes to all.  Ready for the savant (Clr 5 elder)?


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2009)

Updated.

For the savant, use the elite array as follows?

Str 12, Dex 8, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 14

That would give us the following after racial adjustments:

Str 28, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 17, Wis 21, Cha 18

It gets a 4th-level ability score increase as well.  Put it into Wis?


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2009)

Those both sound good.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 25, 2009)

Agreed to both.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Were the savants supposed to also be elders?  If so, we'll need higher Cha, per our elder "sidebar".


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

Yeah, I think they're elders.  Boost Cha by 5 then since elders have Cha 19 vs 14 for normal spacesea giants?  Want to swap the elite array Cha and Con to boost Con some more?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2009)

Let's keep them uber-charismatic. Just because. They'll survive without the Con. Besides which, those cleric levels are non-associated, right?


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

"Non-associated" as in, only adds +1 to CR per 2 levels?


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

I think that's what he means.  And I think that's probably right, though some people might argue that cleric levels should be associated for almost any monster role.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 27, 2009)

Not until level 7.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2009)

Right.  

Updated.

Spells: This spacesea giant savant is a 5th-level cleric. 

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (5/5+1/4+1/2+1; save DC 16 + spell level): 
0th—x;
1st—x;
2nd—x;
3rd—x;
*Domain spell. Domains: x, x.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 27, 2009)

Domains... Protection and Strength? I'd suggest Earth, but a lot of the spells overlap with the SLAs.

3rd--create food and water, magic vestment (D), prayer
2nd--bear's endurance, bull's strength, lesser restoration, shield other (D), silence
1st--command, comprehend languages, divine favor, entropic shield, magic weapon, sanctuary (D)


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2009)

Maybe Travel for their "boldly go where no giant has gone before" theme?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 27, 2009)

Ooh, I like Travel. Drop... Strength for Travel, giving them fly as their 3rd level domain spell?


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2009)

Updated.

0-create water, detect magic, guidance, light, read magic?

Skills: Climb +26, Hide -3*, Jump +26, Listen +23, Spot +23, plus 17 giant ranks and 25 cleric ranks

Feats: Combat Reflexes, Iron Will, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot, 2 more


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 28, 2009)

0th level spells look good.

Replace Combat Reflexes and Iron Will with Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, add Knockdown (it's in the "divine feats" in the SRD) and Skill Focus (concentration).


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2009)

Feats sound good.

Do the extra racial HD skills need to be cross-class since the normal racial class skills are maxed already?

Cleric skills: Concentration, Heal, Knowledge (religion), Spellcraft, Survival?


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2009)

freyar said:


> Do the extra racial HD skills need to be cross-class since the normal racial class skills are maxed already?




Good point.  I believe that is the case.  Updated.


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2009)

That essentially buys us 8 more ranks of something.  How about either Concentration or Know (religion)?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 30, 2009)

How about 4 of each?


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2009)

Updated.

Anything else?   Improved gear?


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2009)

Maybe make the club magic and either go with heavier armor or magic armor?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 30, 2009)

Agreed to a magical club and magical, heavier armor. Maybe also a minor trinket, like a ring of protection or a brooch of shielding.


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## freyar (Mar 31, 2009)

Just looking at this: shouldn't CR be 12, since elders ordinarily have CR 10, and these have 5 non-associated levels?

+1 greatclub, +1 breastplate, ring of protection +2?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 31, 2009)

How about +1 half plate?


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2009)

Updated.

Anything left?


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## freyar (Mar 31, 2009)

Looks good to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 31, 2009)

The speed text needs to be revised to 30 ft (in half plate), not (in hide). Other than that... looks fine by me.


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## Shade (Apr 10, 2009)

*Trow (Myth)*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any; prefer warmer climes
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average to genius (8-18)
TREASURE: A
ALIGNMENT: Lawful neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 6
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-18 (3d6)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (8-12’ tall)
MORALE: Steady (11-12)
XP VALUE: 270

Trow are remnants of a once great culture that nurtured the arts and sciences and dealt peacefully with its neighbors.  As their civilization declined, the trow began enslaving lesser species to assist in their increasingly antagonistic goals.  This practice lead to their ultimate demise, as ogres, trolls, and hill giants eventually rebelled against their captors.  The few trow who remain today are reminders of how corrupt their species became.

Trow are giant, hairless humanoids with tiny ears and massive, elephantine legs.  Skin color ranges from cream to dark brown.  Because they remove their body hair, a trow’s body displays the scars acquired through years of combat.  In colder climes, they wear furs adorned with the possessions (or body parts) of their foes.

With no toes on their massive feet, trow steap more heavily than other humanoids of similar size, so their footsteps are often felt before the trow are spotted.  Once the trow is heard, however, it is usually only moments before it can be seen crashing through the brush.

Combat:  Most trow are honorable in combat and, before attacking, issue a bellow of warning that may be heard up to a mile away.  The roar is not an attack in itself and has no lasting physical effects.

Trow attack with their huge elephantine feet.  The most common tactic is to kick their enemies into the air (2d6 points of damage, plus 1d6 points of falling damage) then attack again before the victim has a chance to recover, gaining a -4 bonus to initiative against opponents who were kicked on the previous round.  Having little fear for their own lives, trow rush headlong into battle with little maneuvering.  Powerful kicking and thrashing attacks make them a popular recruit for large-scale skirmishes.  The force of the trow’s kick makes platemail a poor choice for defense, as the mail can become permanently crushed around an opponent’s body.  A natural “20” on a trow’s attack against an opponent in platemail requires the armor to make a successful saving throw vs. crushing blow.  Failure indicates that the victim is imprisoned in his or her own armor, able to break free only with a successful Bend Bars/Lift Gates roll or with help from a companion who spends 1d4 rounds trying to free the victim.

Naturally tough skin takes the place of artificial armor for trow.  Furthermore, scars are considered a sign of beauty and wisdom and are generally encouraged.

Habitat/Society:  Trow once maintained an enlightened culture with significant artistic and intellectual achievements.  Relics of these times are long forgotten, and the ruins of trow cities are deeply buried.  In spite of the corruption that caused the fall of the species, trow still withhold a fanatical national identity.

Trow were originally magically created as workers and warriors years ago.  Since they are no longer being created, they are a doomed race.  They cannot reproduce or be reincarnated.  Sages estimate that there are approximately eighty trow remaining scattered throughout the lands.

Ecology:  Trow do not need to eat but will do so as a sign of respect, if food is offered.  They also offer food to their guests.

Trow lairs are often caves near the ruins of their once-great cities, monuments, or temples, which they work to rebuild.  Monetary treasures hold little attraction, but items of a more ornamental nature might find their way into the trow lair.  Trow have an affinity for fancy stonework and elaborate architecture.

Among other races, trow skulls are considered a prestigious trophy and are valued at 2,500 gp to some buyers.  Trow hides are believed to have special magic-resistant properties, but this has yet to be proven.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #261 (1999).


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 10, 2009)

That kicking is... weird.


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## freyar (Apr 11, 2009)

The first part of it kind of reminds me of the throwing part of Snatch.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 11, 2009)

Or some manner of Awesome Blow/knockback sort of thing (but yeah, falling damage. Very strange).


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## freyar (Apr 12, 2009)

Well, I'd say it takes kick damage and (on a crit?) is flung as Snatch (1d6 x 10 feet, and takes 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet traveled).  What do you think?

Huh, maybe we should start with the basics.  Large?  Not much hint to abilities other than Int, which averages around 13.


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2009)

Good suggestions for the kick.  I could also see some sort of sunder armor attack that increases (doubles?) the amount of time it takes to remove metal armors damaged by the attack.

They are around the same size as hill giants (Str 25, Dex 8, Con 19, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7).

Maybe Str 25, Dex 8, Con 17, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 11?


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2009)

That works for me.  The sunder idea is interesting.  Would the increased time be in addition to sundering the armor as usual?


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2009)

freyar said:


> That works for me.  The sunder idea is interesting.  Would the increased time be in addition to sundering the armor as usual?




That was my thoughts.  If the armor isn't destroyed, it is more difficult to remove.  Otherwise it just falls apart.  

Do you think those ability scores will work?


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2009)

Yeah, ability scores look good.  I guess the kick is the main SA to work on, huh?


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2009)

Indeed.  Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2009)

How about this?  The main question in my mind is to limit the flinging to crits or not.

Powerful Kick (Su): (On a successful critical hit,) the kick of a trow can fling a creature into the air as well as doing normal damage.  The kicked creature is thrown 1d6 x10 feet in the air (and 1d3 x10 feet sideways).  When the creature lands, it additionally takes falling damage (1d6 points of damage for each 10 feet the kicked creature was thrown vertically).

In addition, if the trow makes a successful sunder attack against metal armor with its kick, the sunder attempt not only deals damage as usual, but the armor becomes deformed and takes twice as long as usual to don or remove.


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2009)

That looks pretty good.  Wanna limit it to heavy, or at least Medium, metal armor?


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2009)

Sure.  Want to let the kick "fling" work on all kicks, or just criticals?


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2009)

I'd be fine with all.  Or make it work like Awesome Blow, where it can choose to do so, but must subtract 4 from its attack roll.  I picture it lining up its kick...


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2009)

That's a good idea, actually.  I like that.

I meant to say Medium or Heavy above.

Powerful Kick (Su):  A trow may choose to take a -4 penalty to its kick attack to fling a creature into the air as well as doing normal damage. If the kick succeeds, the kicked creature is thrown 1d6 x10 feet in the air (and 1d3 x10 feet sideways). When the creature lands, it additionally takes falling damage (1d6 points of damage for each 10 feet the kicked creature was thrown vertically).

In addition, if the trow makes a successful sunder attack against Medium or Heavy metal armor with its kick, the sunder attempt not only deals damage as usual, but the armor becomes deformed and takes twice as long as usual to don or remove.
__________________


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## Melatuis (Apr 16, 2009)

would deformed armor effect dex bonus to AC?  i have not read armor sunder.


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## freyar (Apr 16, 2009)

You know, I like that idea.  This ability is getting a little cumbersome, so I'll split it:

Awesome Kick (Su): A trow may choose to take a -4 penalty to its kick attack to fling a creature into the air as well as doing normal damage. If the kick succeeds, the kicked creature is thrown 1d6 x10 feet in the air (and 1d3 x10 feet sideways). When the creature lands, it additionally takes falling damage (1d6 points of damage for each 10 feet the kicked creature was thrown vertically).

Deforming Sunder (Su): If the trow makes a successful sunder attack against Medium or Heavy metal armor with its kick, the sunder attempt not only deals damage as usual, but the armor becomes deformed. The maximum Dex bonus of the armor is reduced by 1, and the armor takes twice as long as usual to don or remove.  These penalties are removed by a Craft check to repair the armor (along with restoring the armor's hit points).


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 16, 2009)

I like deforming sunder!


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## freyar (Apr 16, 2009)

How about the Awesome Kick?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 16, 2009)

Awesome Kick looks pretty good.


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## Melatuis (Apr 17, 2009)

does Deforming Sunder (Su) stack with its self if the attacker goes back into melee with the creature and is kick again?


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## freyar (Apr 17, 2009)

Melatuis said:


> does Deforming Sunder (Su) stack with its self if the attacker goes back into melee with the creature and is kick again?



I meant to add that.  I think it probably shouldn't, just cause it seems like that much damage should just destroy it.  Copying these two things again:

Awesome Kick (Su): A trow may choose to take a -4 penalty to its kick attack to fling a creature into the air as well as doing normal damage. If the kick succeeds, the kicked creature is thrown 1d6 x10 feet in the air (and 1d3 x10 feet sideways). When the creature lands, it additionally takes falling damage (1d6 points of damage for each 10 feet the kicked creature was thrown vertically).

Deforming Sunder (Su): If the trow makes a successful sunder attack against Medium or Heavy metal armor with its kick, the sunder attempt not only deals damage as usual, but the armor becomes deformed. The maximum Dex bonus of the armor is reduced by 1, and the armor takes twice as long as usual to don or remove. These penalties are removed by a Craft check to repair the armor (along with restoring the armor's hit points).  These penalties do not stack if the armor is subject to deforming sunder more than once.


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## Melatuis (Apr 17, 2009)

I like sunder.

If the attacker is kick again he still takes falling damage (1d6 points of damage for each 10 feet the kicked creature was thrown vertically)?


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## freyar (Apr 17, 2009)

If the trow makes the Awesome Kick, sure!


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## Melatuis (Apr 17, 2009)

I like.


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2009)

Updated.



> With no toes on their massive feet, trow steap more heavily than other humanoids of similar size, so their footsteps are often felt before the trow are spotted.  Once the trow is heard, however, it is usually only moments before it can be seen crashing through the brush.




Racial penalty on Move Silently checks?



> Trow lairs are often caves near the ruins of their once-great cities, monuments, or temples, which they work to rebuild.  Monetary treasures hold little attraction, but items of a more ornamental nature might find their way into the trow lair.  Trow have an affinity for fancy stonework and elaborate architecture.




Maybe stonecunning and a racial bonus on Knowledge (Architecture and engineering)?


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## freyar (Apr 29, 2009)

Yes (-4 penalty) and yes (with a +2 Know bonus).


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 30, 2009)

All that sounds good. With that racial affinity for stonework, what do trow think of dwarves?


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> All that sounds good. With that racial affinity for stonework, what do trow think of dwarves?




Excellent question.  I bet they like and/or admire them.  With a similar lawful outlook and appreciation of stonework and such, they'd probably get along well with the "little giants".

Updated.

Skills: 27
Intimidate, Knowledge (Architecture and engineering), Search?

Feats: 3
Improved Sunder, Power Attack, 1 more?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 30, 2009)

Perhaps Iron Will for that last feat.

So, if the trow admire the little giants, what do the dwarves think of the trow? Are they respected? Seen as nuisances?


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2009)

Iron Will sounds good.



> Trow are remnants of a once great culture that nurtured the arts and sciences and dealt peacefully with its neighbors.  As their civilization declined, the trow began enslaving lesser species to assist in their increasingly antagonistic goals.  This practice lead to their ultimate demise, as ogres, trolls, and hill giants eventually rebelled against their captors.  The few trow who remain today are reminders of how corrupt their species became.




The enslaving aspect of their heritage probably causes unease among the dwarves, but their emnity of many common enemies of the dwarves, as well as their honorable approach to combat would help balance that.



> Trow lairs are often caves near the ruins of their once-great cities, monuments, or temples, which they work to rebuild.




I could see dwarves being employed in such rebuiding efforts as well.


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2009)

"Trow find the lawful nature of dwarves admirable and get along well with them, often hiring dwarves to assist in their rebuilding efforts.  Dwarves, while uneasy with the history of slaving in trow culture, still appreciate their common enmity with evil giants."

Let's give the trow Dwarven as a language (or bonus language).

The special abilities done already?  Environment, alignment, and advancement are good.  Should we add a small clan to the organization line?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 30, 2009)

I think giving Trow Dwarven as a language is a good idea. Perhaps even to the exclusion of Common. 

Agreed to small clan... call it a trust? A commune?


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2009)

Commune.  I like that!  5-20?


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2009)

I like "trust".   4-8?

Updated.



> Trow do not need to eat but will do so as a sign of respect, if food is offered.  They also offer food to their guests.




Will flavor text suffice for the "no need to eat" bit?


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2009)

Freyar, I see your ninjitsu has improved!  

In that case, how about trust (4-8) and commune (9-20)?


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2009)

Your suggestion on organization sounds fine, but maybe we could make trust (3-8) and drop trio then.

If flavor text overrules the giant traits about eating, then flavor is fine for the food bit.


----------



## Shade (Apr 30, 2009)

Sounds good.



> Trow were originally magically created as workers and warriors years ago.  Since they are no longer being created, they are a doomed race.  They cannot reproduce or be reincarnated.




Do we want to make them unaffected by life-restorative magic of less than true ressurection?


----------



## freyar (May 1, 2009)

Sure.  But they are apparently immortal except when killed violently (or by disease?).


----------



## Shade (May 1, 2009)

Interesting...I hadn't caught the implied immortality vibe, but it does seem to make sense.   Do we want to note that they do not appear to die of old age?



> Monetary treasures hold little attraction, but items of a more ornamental nature might find their way into the trow lair.  Trow have an affinity for fancy stonework and elaborate architecture.




Treasure:  No coins, double goods, standard items?



> Trow hides are believed to have special magic-resistant properties, but this has yet to be proven.




Leave it as a rumor?


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## freyar (May 1, 2009)

I like all that.  Maybe to go with the rumor, we could put in a sidebar about optionally giving them SR or immunity to certain spells (even up to golem-level immunity to magic).


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## Shade (May 1, 2009)

Does this work?

Doomed to Extinction (Su):  Trow are unaffected by raised dead, ressurection, and similar life-restorative magic.  Only a true ressurection or miracle can restore a trow to life.


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## demiurge1138 (May 1, 2009)

In that, we should also mention the immortal except for death by violence part.


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## freyar (May 4, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> In that, we should also mention the immortal except for death by violence part.



Agreed, but it otherwise looks good.  Maybe go so far as saying that they are immune to aging effects?


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## Shade (May 4, 2009)

Doomed to Extinction (Su): Trow are unaffected by raised dead, ressurection, and similar life-restorative magic. Only a true ressurection or miracle can restore a trow to life.  However, trow are effectively immortal except for death by violence, and are immune to aging effects.


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## freyar (May 4, 2009)

That works for me!


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## demiurge1138 (May 4, 2009)

Me too.


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## Shade (May 4, 2009)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 5-6?  They fall between the ogre and hill giant in relative power.

Level Adjustment: +5?  (Most lesser giants are +4, and that immortality is a bit of boon)

Trow stand 8 to 12 feet tall and weigh x pounds. (ogres stand 9 to 10 feet tall and weigh 600 to 650 pounds, hill giants are 10-1/2 feet tall and weigh about 1,100 pounds, stone giants are about 12 feet tall and weigh about 1,500 pounds)


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## freyar (May 4, 2009)

I like CR 5.

LA is fine.

600-1500 lb?

From above,
Treasure: No coins, double goods, standard items


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## Shade (May 4, 2009)

Updated.   What's left?

These fellows turned out far more interesting than I'd expected.


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## freyar (May 4, 2009)

Think they're done!


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## demiurge1138 (May 4, 2009)

Ditto.


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## Shade (May 8, 2009)

Last one!

*Gigantes*
The Gigantes are a race of giants that Gaea gave birth to when the blood of her-mutilated husband fell upon her earthly form. They are huge, manlike creatures with serpents for feet. Their hatred of the Olympian gods runs deep, and they will never pass up a chance to do one harm.

AC 1	No. 1-2	SZ 15’	XP: varies
MV 15	ML 16	AL ce	Int low
HD 16	HP 128	MR nil	THAC0 5
#AT 1	Dmg 2d8 (fist)

Special Att/Def:  Varies by individual.

Each Gigante has at least one special power; for example, Antaeus heals all damage he takes each round. In combat, he also increases 2’ in size and does an additional ld8 in damage each round, to a maximum size of 21’ and a maximum of 5d8 in damage. Both of these powers work only as long as his feet are touching the ground. Another gigante, Enceladus, is so terrifying in aspect that any being seeing him must save versus spells or flee as if affected by a fear spell. Any time he saves against a magic spell, Enceladus can grab it out of the air and fling it back at his attackers. If the spell allows no saving throw, he is automatically able to use this power.


We've actually converted Antaeus and Enceladus.  At the time, we didn't think a generic gigantes conversion was needed, but I'm willing to do one now if others think it is worthwhile.


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## freyar (May 10, 2009)

Well, there are some others listed in the Enceladus entry.  We could do up tables of special abilities, maybe based on HD or size, like we did for the seelie fey (but maybe not quite as many tables).  Then we could fill in the other gigantes SAs based on mythology, as examples.

How's that sound?


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## Shade (May 11, 2009)

We could do something like that, sure.

It's the last giant, after all.  Might as well go out with a bang!


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## demiurge1138 (May 11, 2009)

Agreed to tables.

Speaking of... when are we going to do the Unseelie? Are we waiting for the next Fey February?


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## Shade (May 11, 2009)

Nah, I just figured we needed a breather after the seelie.  We can queue them up in the "Finishing off the Fey" thread after the faerie phiz.


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## freyar (May 11, 2009)

Ok, rob stats from other giants of appropriate sizes?  Compare to the pre-existing Antaeus and Enceladus?


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## Shade (May 12, 2009)

Yeah, let's look closely at Antaeus and Enceladus for stats.

For the unique powers table, we might get some ideas from Wikipedia:

"The Gigantes identified by individual names were Alcyoneus slain by Heracles, Porphyrion wounded by Zeus with lightning bolts and finished off by Heracles, Enceladus and Pallas killed by Athena, Polybotes crushed by Poseidon beneath the island of Nisyros, Hippolytus slain by Hermes with his sword and wearing the cap of invisibility, Ephialtes of the Aloadae shot by Apollo with arrows, Gration slain by the goddess Artemis with her arrows, Eurytos slain by Dionysos with his pine-cone tipped thyrsos, Agrios and Thoon clubbed to death by the Moirae with clubs of bronze, Mimas slain by Hephaestus with bolts of metal and Clytius by Hecate with flaming torches."


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## freyar (May 12, 2009)

That certainly suggests interesting immunities/vulnerabilities.  I should try to look these up in Edith Hamilton's mythology, too.

Abilities by size?


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## Shade (May 12, 2009)

I kinda like random abilities, regardless of size.   Spot checking a few of the names, it looks like serpent tails for legs were a repeated theme, and "born with armor and weapon" was another.

Looking at stats of the two we've got...

Antaeus (L): Str 25, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 12
Enceladus (C): Str 53, Dex 10, Con 45, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 14

...and comparing to other giants, perhaps base ability scores of...

Large: Str 25, Dex 10, Con 20, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 12
Huge: Str 35, Dex 10, Con 24, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 12
Gargantuan: Str 43, Dex 10, Con 28, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 12
Colossal: Str 51, Dex 10, Con 32, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 12

...and allow a random boost to one or more stats?


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## freyar (May 13, 2009)

Hehe, I actually meant ability scores by size, as in your list above.  That looks good, too!  Maybe for the random boost, have the DM roll, maybe more times for more HD or something?


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## Shade (May 13, 2009)

That sounds about right.

Rock throwing/catching standard for all?


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## freyar (May 13, 2009)

Yeah, since these are uber-giants.


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## Shade (May 13, 2009)

We'll need to figure out base HD for each size category.

Maybe Large 15 HD, Huge 20 HD, Gargantuan 30 HD, Colossal 40 HD?

To allow for Antaeus's nonstandard HD (32), we could make the advancement ranges overlap each size, and note that in the text.  Does that work?


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## freyar (May 13, 2009)

That's fine by me!  Those probably work well with the base ability scores above, too.


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## Shade (May 13, 2009)

Added the Large variety to Homebrews.


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## freyar (May 13, 2009)

Comparing to Antaeus, I see that he's a point short in Con compared to the generic Large ones.  Should we drop the generic Large gigantes to Con 19 and say that Large get no bonus to abilities?

I guess they should each get 3 special powers.

Rock throwing is for Huge gigantes as written.


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## Shade (May 13, 2009)

freyar said:


> Comparing to Antaeus, I see that he's a point short in Con compared to the generic Large ones.  Should we drop the generic Large gigantes to Con 19 and say that Large get no bonus to abilities?




Actually, we might need to revisit Ant and Enc afterwards.  Con 19 is the same as the lowly hill giant, and these guys are supposed to be "special".


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## freyar (May 13, 2009)

Fine by me.  Maybe a Large one can get 2 +2 ability bonuses, and Antaeus could put them both in Con or something.


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## demiurge1138 (May 14, 2009)

Agreed to needs more Con. Hell, more Str too.


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## freyar (May 14, 2009)

Why don't we start by bumping the base ability array Shade had above?


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## Shade (May 14, 2009)

That's fine by me.  These fellows are supposed to be legendary, after all.


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## freyar (May 14, 2009)

Let's boost the HD while we're at it, too.  (Incidentally, it seems like a lof the the problems we're having comparing to the old Antaeus and Enceladus has to do with the fact that they're from a 1e source and the gigantes listing is 2e.)  How about Large 30 HD, Huge 35 HD, Gargantuan 40 HD, Colossal 45 HD?  That's closer to Antaeus and Enceladus.  And the 16HD of the 2e gigantes just seems way too low for what should be an epic (or close to epic) fight.


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## Shade (May 14, 2009)

Yeah, good idea.

How about...

Large: 30 HD, Str 32, Dex 10, Con 24, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 12
Huge: 35 HD, Str 40, Dex 10, Con 28, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 12
Gargantuan: 40 HD, Str 48, Dex 10, Con 32, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 12
Colossal: 45 HD, Str 56, Dex 10, Con 36, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 12


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## freyar (May 14, 2009)

That looks much better.


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## demiurge1138 (May 14, 2009)

That looks better!


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## Shade (May 15, 2009)

Updated.

Suggested natural armor values by size?

Do the damages look reasonable?


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## freyar (May 15, 2009)

Cloud and storm giants have +12 natural and regular armor.  So I could see anywhere from +12 to +16 for the Large version, advancing as usual by size, plus usually some kind of armor as at least an option.  How's that sound?

I think damage looks ok if we go to 1-1/2 Str on the slam and give them additional options (possibly weapons, outsized weapons, rend, etc).


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## demiurge1138 (May 15, 2009)

Let's go +15 for the Large guys. Agreed that they should at least have the option of wearing armor.


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## Shade (May 15, 2009)

Updated.

Shall we work on the various powers they might aquire?

Based on freyar's suggestions, and some of the Wikipedia stuff, we have a partial list:

Oversized Weapon (like a titan)

Rend/Pummel

Born with Armaments (give 'em special armor and/or weapons)

"Invincible, so long as his feet remained firmly planted on his native soil" (Alcyoneus)

From Antaeus and Enceladus:

Catch Spells

Earth Mastery

Frightful Presence

Instantaneous Healing

Growth

Some interesting inspiration here:

Water walking

All-around vision

Animalistic traits

Breath weapon


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## freyar (May 16, 2009)

The Alcyoneus one looks a lot like Antaeus's Instantaneous Healing, I think.

I'll try to cook up some more ideas this weekend.  That's a good start.


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## Shade (May 26, 2009)

How's the cooking going?   Are you slow-cooking it in a crock pot?


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## freyar (May 26, 2009)

Shade said:


> How's the cooking going?   Are you slow-cooking it in a crock pot?



Ooops, this one got away from me.  

That link you provide gives the whirlpool of Charybdis: how about a variation on the suction-vortex ability (we gave this to something aquatic a while back).

Maybe we have enough?


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## Shade (May 26, 2009)

Good idea!   I'll try to compile some of these into the Homebrews entry and see where we're at.


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## freyar (May 26, 2009)

This is where I start wondering why I suggested making tables.


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## Shade (May 27, 2009)

Updated Homebrews with a few of the specialized abilities.


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## freyar (May 27, 2009)

For the special caster check on catching spells, let's make it 1d20+HD/2.  That's what Enceladus has (+24, 48 HD), and it makes more sense for the smaller ones.

We need to get some more in here!

Breath Weapon (Su): X-ft cone, every 1d4 rounds, Xd8 damage, Reflex save half.  The save DC is Constitution-based.    
Cone size and # of damage dice by size.  Allow DM to choose energy type?

Water Walking (Su): The gigantes can walk over any liquid as if it were solid ground.


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## Shade (May 28, 2009)

For breath weapon...

Cone sizes same as dragons (Large=40, Huge=50, Gargantuan=60, Colossal=70)?

Damage: Large=15d8, Huge=20d8, Gargantuan=25d8, Colossal=30d8?

Here's another...

Animalistic Traits (Ex):  The gigantes has the head and arms of an animal, such as a bear or bird.  It gains bite and claw attacks based on its size, as follows.

Size / Bite / Claw
Large / 2d8 / 2d6 
Huge / 3d6 / 2d8
Gargantuan / 4d6 / 3d6
Colossal / 6d6 / 4d6

Should the claw attacks replace slam attacks, and maybe change pummel to rend?


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## demiurge1138 (May 28, 2009)

All of that sounds good.


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## Shade (May 29, 2009)

Updated.

Suggestions for these two?

Born with Armaments (give 'em special armor and/or weapons)

"Invincible, so long as his feet remained firmly planted on his native soil" (Alcyoneus)


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## freyar (May 29, 2009)

To me, "Invincible, so long as his feet remained firmly planted on his native soil" (Alcyoneus) sounds a lot like this:

Instantaneous Healing (Ex): If he begins his turn in contact with the earth, Antaeus instantly regains all lost hit points. This works just like natural healing. It does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, and it does not allow Antaeus to regrow or reattach lost body parts.

Born with Armaments (give 'em special armor and/or weapons) could be magic weapons/armor with a specified enhancement value (+3 for Large, +4 Huge, +5 Gargantuan, +6 Colossal?).  Not sure, but that would leave the DM with some freedom.


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2009)

Good point on the "invincible on the earth" bit matching Antaeus' ability.

Your proposal for born with armaments seems sound.

Shall we add damage reduction and spell resistance to the smorgasbord?


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2009)

Yes on DR (adamantine? -? what is giantish DR?) and SR.


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2009)

freyar said:


> Yes on DR (adamantine? -? what is giantish DR?) and SR.




I don't believe there is a real standard, as most giants lack DR.   But "-" seems the most appropriate to me, as a way of stressing the near-invulnerability of many of the mythological giants.


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2009)

Let's go with DR 20/- for that special ability, then, and also a sizable amount of SR.


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2009)

Updated.

Give 'em the typical feats and skills for giants?

Typical Feats for Giants:
Alertness, Awesome Blow, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot

Typical Skills for Giants:
Climb, Craft, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Spot


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2009)

Those look good, though we should add more options on the feats, including epic ones.  

We might add a berzerk rage to the table of abilities, so some of them can qualify for the epic rage feats. 

We should specify how many abilities they each get.


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2009)

I like the bererk rage option.

Here are the feats we gave Antaeus and Enceladus...

Antaeus : Awesome Blow, Cleave, Great Cleave, Endurance, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam) 
Epic Feats: Epic Toughness, Epic Will, Legendary Wrestler (b)

Enceladus: Alertness, Awesome Blow, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam) 
Epic Feats: Devastating Critical (slam), Epic Reflexes, Epic Will, Overwhelming Critical (slam), Superior Initiative


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2009)

How's this?

Berserker:  The gigantes gains the mighty rage and tireless rage abilities of a 20th-level barbarian.  A gigantes with this trait should consider the Chaotic Rage, Mighty Rage, Ruinous Rage, Terrifying Rage, and Thundering Rage epic feats when selecting feats.

Skills: Choose from the following:  Climb, Craft, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Spot. 

Feats:  Choose from the following:  Alertness, Awesome Blow, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot, Snatch (if gigantes possesses animalistic traits), Weapon Focus (slam).  A gigantes also may have a number of epic feats.  Choose from the following list:  Devastating Critical, Epic Reflexes, Epic Toughness, Epic Will, Legendary Wrestler, Overwhelming Critical, Superior Initiative.  Epic feat slots may be filled with general feats.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

I didn't count the feats, but I'll assume you have enough there.  Looks good to me!


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## Leopold (Jun 5, 2009)

Did you specifiy quantity of each type of feat and which ones were part of a chain or are we leaving that upto the DM to determine?


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

DM's discretion.

Yep, there are enough feats (and some can be taken multiple times, like Epic Toughness).

Updated.

Number of special traits equals HD divided by 10?  That's 3 for Large and Huge, 4 for Gargantuan, and 4 or more for Colossal.

Environment: Any?
Organization: Solitary?
Treasure: Standard?  (We should note in the born with armaments ability that those weapons and armor are in addition to its normal treasure)
Alignment: Usually chaotic evil?


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

That all sounds good.  Enceladus is a little off compared to the other Colossal gigantes (only 2 SAs from the list). Though he clerely seems to have animalistic features, he doesn't have the bite or claw, either.  I suppose we could swap his DR 10/epic for DR 20/-, and then he'd be ok.  His ability scores are a little off, too.  Want to redo him as an example?

Looking at the CC versions of Antaeus and Enceladus, I notice both have resistance to acid 5.  Let's make that standard for gigantes.


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

Excellent suggestions!

Let's leave Ency as his own entry, though (we can fix him to match the "template", though).   Let's pick one of the others that hasn't received stats yet as our sample.

Updated.

CR 21 for Large, 22 for Huge, 24 for Gargantuan, and 25 for Colossal?


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

Sounds good.

Like I've said before, I don't have a lot of experience at such high CRs, but that sounds reasonable.  It would match Antaeus and be just one off for Enceladus (and he might be due for a bump after we fix him anyway, except for his loss of Con).


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

Advancement 46+ for Colossal?

Dare we attempt weighs for these things?  

Large giants in the MM range from 10 feet to 15 feet tall and weigh 1,500 to 7,000 pounds.

Huge giants in the MM range from 18 feet to 21 feet tall and weigh 5,000 to 12,000 pounds.

I don't believe there are any official Gargantuan giants!  

Enceladus is 85 feet tall and weighs 150 tons. 

So maybe...

Large:  10 to 15 feet tall, 1500 to 7000 pounds.
Huge:  16 to 32 feet tall, 5,000 to 25,000 pounds.
Gargantuan:  33 to 60 feet tall, 15 to 120 tons.
Colossal:  Greater than 60 feet tall, over 120 tons.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

That's all fine.  These are heavy!


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

Updated.

I think we're ready for the sample.  Anyone got a favorite?


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

Alcyoneus is the one I can find the most about: wikipedia.

Seems like he should be Colossal and have born with armaments.  Beyond that, I'm not sure.


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

How about this one?

AGRIOS A man-eating Thrakian Gigante who was half man and half bear

AGRIOS A Gigante clubbed to death by the Moirai (Fates) with maces of bronze.

StumbleUpon WebToolbar

AGRIOS A man-eating Thrakian Gigante who was half man and half bear

WRATH OF HERMES : Greek mythology


That would give us animalistic features, damage reduction, and probably rend.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

That would work (though with that mythology, I'm not sure if they're actually gigantes).


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

Good point.  Maybe we'll stick with your guy, and go with damage reduction and spell resistance if nothing else applies.

I thought of a few more "catch all" smorgasbord options...

Born to Fight (Ex):  The gigantes is treated as a fighter of a level equal to its Hit Dice for the purposes of qualifying for feats, using magic items, and the like.

Bonus Feat:  The gigantes gains an extra feat from the list above as a bonus feat.

Great Wrestler:  The gigantes gains Improved Grapple and Legendary Wrestler as bonus feats.

Also, we never added an option to improve an ability score.   How about adding the various "Great" epic feats (like Great Strength) to the list?

A fast healing ability or the Fast Healing epic feat might also be applicable.


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2009)

I have to agree with all that, maybe even an option with "free" ability boosts (the Great feats as bonus feats, for ex).


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## Shade (Jun 8, 2009)

Sure!  How about these?

Physically Dominating:  The gigantes gains Great Constitution, Great Dexterity, and Great Strength as bonus feats.

Mental Giant:  The gigantes gains Great Charisma, Great Intelligence, and Great Wisdom as bonus feats.


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2009)

Excellent!  Can I request a homebrews update to see how they're looking?


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## Shade (Jun 8, 2009)

Absolutely!   Back to the sample critter?


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2009)

We need to specify # of special abilities.  You suggested "Number of special traits equals HD divided by 10? That's 3 for Large and Huge, 4 for Gargantuan, and 4 or more for Colossal."  That seems good for me.

We should also specify SR.  What % do you think?  50% or CR+10?  Or less?

Then I think we're good for our sample.


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## Shade (Jun 8, 2009)

Good points.

50% equals CR + 11, which works fine for me.  Or, take the base CR for each size and add 11?  Thus, Large = 32, Huge = 33, Gargantuan = 34, Colossal = 35?


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2009)

Let's take the base CR and add 11.  Easier for the DM, I think.


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

Updated.

Here's a start for Alcyoneus...

*Alcyoneus*
Colossal Giant
Hit Dice: 45d8+585 (787 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 36 (-8 size, +27 natural, +3 breastplate), touch 2, flat-footed 36
Base Attack/Grapple: +33/+72
Attack: Oversized _+3 longspear_ +51 melee (8d6+37/x3) or slam +48 melee (4d6+23) or rock +26 ranged (6d6+23)
Full Attack: _+3 longspear_ +51/+46/+41/+36 melee (8d6+37/x3) or 2 slams +48 melee (4d6+23) or rock +26 ranged (6d6+23)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./30 ft. (35 ft. w/longspear)
Special Attacks: Rock throwing
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, resistance to acid 5, rock catching, specialized powers (born with armaments, oversized weapon, 2 more)
Saves: Fort +37, Ref +15, Will +15
Abilities: Str 56, Dex 10, Con 36, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 12
Skills: 48 (see below)
Feats: 16 (9 can be epic)(see below)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 25
Treasure: Standard (in addition to arms and armor above)
Alignment: Usually chaotic evil
Advancement: 46+ (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: —

Born with Armaments: Alcyoneus was born armed with a +3 longspear and a +3 breastplate.

Oversized Weapon (Ex): The gigantes can wields a weapon sized for a creature one size larger without penalty.

I think we need to note in oversized weapons that it applies only to manufactured weapons, and not the gigantes natural attacks.  What about thrown rocks, though?


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2009)

Let's not let it apply to rocks, I think.  (That reminds me, we should list the size of rocks for Gargantuan and Colossal gigantes.)  

Another thought: their damage is pretty high already, but why not add Imp Natural Attack to the list of feats?  Normally I don't like it for "standard" monsters, but these guys are all customized anyway.

For Alcyoneus, I think I like Physically Dominating or Mental Giant (he's an elite gigantes, after all) and either SR or Born to Fight.  Vaguely seems to fit the mythology.


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## Leopold (Jun 9, 2009)

pass on thrown rocks. Only the stuff it carries around. I'd shudder to see this guy on a mountain side picking up normal rocks and making them Uber.

are we statting out all the Named giants?


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2009)

I'm a little confused what you mean about the thrown rocks.  In any case, I think we absolutely should keep rock throwing.  After all, these are quintessential giants.  Also, if you check the wikipedia entry, you see Alcyoneus (our sample) throwing a big ol' boulder.

I think we're just going to do one sample (and maybe clean up the other two that are already in the CC).


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

What freyar said.


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## Leopold (Jun 9, 2009)

freyar said:


> I'm a little confused what you mean about the thrown rocks.  In any case, I think we absolutely should keep rock throwing.  After all, these are quintessential giants.  Also, if you check the wikipedia entry, you see Alcyoneus (our sample) throwing a big ol' boulder.
> 
> I think we're just going to do one sample (and maybe clean up the other two that are already in the CC).




I was agree with you in regards to not making the rock throwing a super power, just regular ole rock throwing re: your prior post.



> Let's not let it apply to rocks, I think. (That reminds me, we should list the size of rocks for Gargantuan and Colossal gigantes.)


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2009)

Ahh, ok.  I think the idea would be that he'd be allowed to pick up even larger rocks, but I think that's just overcomplicating things.  So we're all agreed, good.


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 48
Feats: Great Constitution (B), Great Dexterity (B), Great Strength (B), 16 more (9 can be epic)


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2009)

Let's split the skills evenly between Climb, Intimidate, and Spot.

Let's take (slam) off of Weapon Focus in the feat list.  Thinking about this, let's swap SR out for Berzerker.  That'll be more fun.

Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Awesome Blow, Improved Sunder, Cleave, Great Cleave, Weapon Focus (longspear), Improved Critical (longspear), Improved Initiative
Overwhelming Critical (longspear), Superior Initiative, Thundering Rage, Ruinous Rage, Devastating Critical (longspear)
2 more

Edit: I had an idea!  Drop Spot and put those ranks into Intimidate.  Then add Terrifying Rage.  Then we just need 1 more feat.  If we add Dire Charge to the list, that would be a nice choice.


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

Great ideas all around!

Updated.

I put all the ranks into Intimidate, since he already has a great Climb modifier due to his ridiculous Strength.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

Nice!  Are these done except for tweaking Antaeus and Enceladus?


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

I believe so!


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

Ok, then.  Starting with Antaeus.  I notice that he has extra DR, but his abilities are a bit low.  His natural AC is also 1 low.  He also has an undescribed SQ "superior fast healing" which sounds redundant with instantaneous healing.  Shall we tidy him up?


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

Sounds good.

He's going to end up short one ability (contact with earth, growth, instantaneous healing, and great wrestler all apply).  Should we change the gigantes to gain specialized powers equal to (HD/10) +1?   Or maybe roll earth mastery and contact with earth into a single ability?

Should we add "or by character class" to the gigantes' advancement lines?

What about the Earth subtype?   Drop it?

Wow...we really messed up his skill ranks the first time!


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

Let's add an extra special power.  We can give Alcyoneus SR back (or whatever you'd like).

Yes to character class advancement.

Uhh, drop earth subtype.

Yeah, let's reconsider all skills and feats.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

Updated.

Revising Antaeus...

*Antaeus*
Large Giant
Hit Dice: 32d8+254 (398 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 24 (-1 size, +15 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 24
Base Attack/Grapple: +24/+53
Attack: Slam +35 melee (1d8+11/19-20) or rock +24 ranged (2d6+11)
Full Attack: 2 slams +35 melee (1d8+11/19-20) or rock +24 ranged (2d6+11)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Rock throwing
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, resistance to acid 5, rock catching, specialized powers (earth mastery, great wrestler, growth, instantaneous healing)
Saves: Fort +24, Ref +10, Will +14
Abilities: Str 32, Dex 10, Con 24, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 12
Skills: 33
Feats: Awesome Blow, Cleave, Endurance, Epic Toughness, Epic Will, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Grapple (B), Improved Sunder, Legendary Wrestler (B), Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 21
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic evil
Advancement: 31-34 HD (Large) or by character class
Level Adjustment: —

Earth Mastery (Ex): The gigantes gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls if both it and its foe are touching the ground. If an opponent is airborne or waterborne, the gigantes takes a –4 penalty on attack and damage rolls. 

Great Wrestler: The gigantes gains Improved Grapple and Legendary Wrestler as bonus feats.

Growth (Su): As long as it is in contact with the ground, the gigantes may, as a free action, begin growing, increasing his mass and physical prowess incrementally. So long as it wishes and remains in contact with the ground, the gigantes will continue to grow every subsequent round, at the beginning of its turn. When the gigantes grows, its size increases to the next highest size category, gaining all benefits and penalties for the size increase (ability scores, natural armor bonus, and base slam damage change appropriately), and doubling in height and weight. When the gigantes reaches Colossal size it stops growing, but can remain at that size as long as it wishes. 

When the gigantes wishes to end this ability, loses contact with the ground, becomes unconscious, or dies, it returns to its normal size by decreasing to the next lowest size category each round. 

Instantaneous Healing (Ex): If the gigantes begins its turn in contact with the earth, it instantly regains all lost hit points. This works just like natural healing. It does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, and it does not allow the gigantes to regrow or reattach lost body parts.


Feel free to recommend feat replacements.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

Doesn't he get 35 ranks?  Split them between Climb and Intimidate for fun?

Ok, let's drop the advancement.  Are the 2 extra HD racial or from a class?  I think I vote for racial.

Feats aren't bad, I think.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

Yeah, I assumed racial HD.

Climb 11, Intimidate 22?  That way they nearly break even after ability modifiers.

Anything else?


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## freyar (Jun 11, 2009)

I think Antaeus is ok, since he only needed a few tweaks.  Enceladus seemed like the weak one.


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## Shade (Jun 11, 2009)

Enceladus

It looks like he had immunity to fire.  Should we add immunity to (energy type) to the list of available abilities?



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> He was buried on the island of Sicily, under Mount Etna. The volcanic fires of Etna were said to be the breath of Enceladus, and its tremors to be caused by him rolling his injured side beneath the mountain (similar myths are told about Typhon and Vulcan). In Greece, an earthquake is still often called a "strike of Enceladus".




He gets catch spells, frightful presence, and (presumably) immunity to fire.  He'll get 2 more specialized powers.  Based on the above passage, how about fire breath?

Maybe add the following ability to the list?

Shockwave (Ex): As a standard action, an earth giant can stomp the earth with one of its massive feet. This causes a severe localized earth tremor, affecting all creatures standing on the ground within 100 feet of the giant. Creatures in this region must succeed on a DC 50 Reflex save or fall prone. Structures in this area suffer 4d12+22 points of damage, and this attack ignores hardness. The save DC is Strength-based.


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## freyar (Jun 11, 2009)

Those are great suggestions!  Let's do that.

His abilities are a bit out of line, too...


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## Shade (Jun 11, 2009)

Updated gigantes.

*Enceladus*
Colossal Giant
Hit Dice: 48d8+624 (840 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 29 (-8 size, +27 natural), touch 2, flat-footed 29
Base Attack/Grapple: +36/+75
Attack: Slam +51 melee (4d6+23) or rock +29 ranged (6d6+23)
Full Attack: 2 slams +51 melee (4d6+23) or rock +29 ranged (6d6+23)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./30 ft.
Special Attacks: Rock throwing
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, resistance to acid 5, rock catching, specialized powers (breath weapon, catch spells, frightful presence, immunity to fire, shockwave)
Saves: Fort +39, Ref +16, Will +16
Abilities: Str 56, Dex 10, Con 36, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 12
Skills: Intimidate +17, Listen +16, Spot +16
Feats: 16 (9 can be epic)(see below)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 25
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Chaotic evil
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

His current feats are: Alertness, Awesome Blow, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam) 

Epic Feats: Devastating Critical (slam), Epic Reflexes, Epic Will, Overwhelming Critical (slam), Superior Initiative

To get him closer to his previous Con and hit points, I'd recommend replacing Epic Will and Superior Initiative with Great Constitution (x2).  We could also drop Epic Reflexes and replace with Epic Toughness. 

Thoughts?


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## freyar (Jun 12, 2009)

Well, he has room for more epic feats.  We could drop Alertness, Imp Overrun, Imp Sunder, and Iron Will without messing up prereqs, I think.  That might leave him a bit better off. Your suggestions for added epic feats make sense, though.

I think we need to revisit his skill ranks, as well.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2009)

So...

Awesome Blow, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam) 

Epic Feats: Devastating Critical (slam), Epic Reflexes, Epic Toughness (x2), Epic Will, Great Constitution (x2), Overwhelming Critical (slam), Superior Initiative

I split ranks evenly between Intimidate, Listen, and Spot.  Suggested improvements?


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2009)

Ok, you already dealt with the skills.  That sounds ok to me!

I think we have one too many feats.  Maybe drop Epic Reflexes or Epic Will?


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## Leopold (Jun 15, 2009)

Epic Will. These guys can be a bit quick on the draw.


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2009)

Actually, the statblock lists 16 feats (9 epic), but I believe a 48 HD critter gets 17 feats (10 epic), so we don't need to drop anything.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2009)

Good catch! 

*Enceladus*
Colossal Giant
Hit Dice: 48d8+732 (948 hp)
Initiative: +8
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 29 (-8 size, +27 natural), touch 2, flat-footed 29
Base Attack/Grapple: +36/+75
Attack: Slam +52 melee (4d6+23/19-20 plus 1d6 on a critical hit and DC 57 Fort save or die) or rock +29 ranged (6d6+23)
Full Attack: 2 slams +52 melee (4d6+23/19-20 plus 1d6 on a critical hit and DC 57 Fort save or die) or rock +29 ranged (6d6+23)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./30 ft.
Special Attacks: Rock throwing
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, resistance to acid 5, rock catching, specialized powers (breath weapon, catch spells, frightful presence, immunity to fire, shockwave)
Saves: Fort +40, Ref +20, Will +20
Abilities: Str 56, Dex 10, Con 38, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 12
Skills: Intimidate +17, Listen +16, Spot +16
Feats: Awesome Blow, Cleave, Devastating Critical (slam), Epic Reflexes, Epic Toughness (x2), Epic Will, Great Cleave, Great Constitution (x2), Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Initiative, Overwhelming Critical (slam), Power Attack, Superior Initiative, Weapon Focus (slam) 
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 25
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Chaotic evil
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2009)

I think that looks better.  Done?


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2009)

I think so, and with it, this thread is complete!


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2009)

Much like the next few creatures, this thread rises from its grave!  

*Barrowe*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any hills and mountains
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: See below
INELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: D
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENT: 10
HIT DICE: 13
THAC0: 7
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d8+7 or by weapon (2-16+7)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Energy drain, hurling rocks for 2-20
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Hit only by silver or +1 or better magical weapons
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
SIZE: H (16’ tall)
MORALE: Elite (14)
XP VALUE: 12,000

Barrowes are undead hill giants, even uglier than their living counterparts.  They go about naked but do not seem to be so, for their bodies sport a thick growth of matted, filthy hair.  This thick fur, allied with the toughness of their undead hide, gives them an armor class of 2.  Their eyes glitter like those of all undead, but because their eyes are small, and because the giant stoops over so much, it is often hard to make them out at a distance, leading to disastrous errors in identification.

Combat:  Barrowes can use any attack form they did in life, being slightly stronger in undead form.  They inflict 1d8+7 hp damage per hit.  They cause 2d8+7 hp damage when wielding a weapon, and boulders they hurl inflict 2d20 hp damage.  They have a maximum range of 250 yards when hurling boulders.  Due to a loss of Dexterity that comes with undeath, barrowes  cannot catch hurled boulders.   Barrowes can be struck only be weapons of +1 enchantment or better, unless the nonmagical weapon is of silvered steel.  They suffer 2d4 hp damage per vial of holy water.

After a successful melee attack with an unarmed fist, barrowes drain one experience level unless the victim saves vs. death magic.  Anyone totally drained in this manner becomes a miniature barrowe, undergoing a shocking transformation.  The victim sheds his clothes or sees them ripped or split off as his body becomes overly muscular, hunchbacked, and apelike.  He also gains all the powers of a barrowe except those of great Strength and boulder-hurling, but he retains only half of his Hit Dice.  (Note:  A barrowe can make another true barrow only by slaying another giant with its energy-draining attack.)  Due to the stupidity of all hill giants, however, any barrowes thus created are not controlled by their slayer, wandering off to find lairs.

Barrowes are immune to all mind-affecting spells, as well as sleep, hold, poison, paralyzation, or cold-based attacks.  A raise dead spell, however, instantly slays the monster.  Barrowes are intolerant of bright sunlight and actively avoid it, although it does them no real harm.

Habitat/Society:  These creatures exist alone or in small groups, placing no value on the company of others.  Their lairs in death are much the same as in life:  caverns and other gloomy hill-country lairs, such as deep forests.

Barrowes have no fondness for their living kin.  They frequently go out of their way to wipe out a former family, tribe, or raiding band, just for the satisfaction of breaking it up.  Remember, the barrowe gains no followers when it creates more of its kind:  the new undead simply wander away.  The only pleasure a barrowe knows comes from breaking up the formerly close-knit bonds of its kin, causing them to separate and become as lonely as it is.

Ecology:  Barrowes exists as much no the Negative Material Plane as on the Prime.  The negative energy from the former polane sustains them and provides their life-draining abilities, though they achieve as much satisfaction draining a living being as they once gained from filling an empty stomach.  Their only impact on a region’s ecology is to ensure that it has none:  Animals sense the undead presence and flee the area, while the local vegetation slowly withers and dies within a quarter-mile of the creature’s lair.  Some sages speculate that using the parts of a barrowe in the production of an otherwise standard potion of hill giant strength grants the imbiber energy-draining abilities as well as increased strength, but as far as is known, no one has been foolhardy enough to try it.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #254 (1998).


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2009)

For comparison, here's a 2e hill giant...

Giant, Hill
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any hills and mountains 
FREQUENCY: Rare 
ORGANIZATION: Tribal 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any 
DIET: Omnivorous 
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7) 
TREASURE: D 
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil 
NO. APPEARING: 1-12 
ARMOR CLASS: 3 (5) 
MOVEMENT: 12 
HIT DICE: 12+1-2 hit points 
THAC0: 9 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6 or by weapon (2-12+7) 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Hurling rocks for 2-16 (2d8) 
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil 
SIZE: H (16' tall) 
MORALE: Elite (13-14) 
XP VALUE: 3,000 

Hill giants' natural Armor Class is 5. This is reduced to an Armor Class of 3 when they wear crudely-sewn animal hides, which are the equivalent of leather armor. 

Hill giants' favorite weapons are oversized clubs which do 2-12 +7 points of damage (double the damage of a man-sized club plus their strength bonus). They hurl rocks for 2-16 (2d8) points of damage. Their targets for such attacks must be between 3 and 200 yards away from the giant. They can catch rocks or other similar missiles 30% of the time.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 3, 2009)

Hill giants still have 12 HD, so keeping these guys at 13 seems appropriate. Likewise, it'd be appropriate for their create spawn to turn humanoids into wights and giants into barrowes. 

DR/ silver seems like a no-brainer here.


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## freyar (Oct 3, 2009)

I think you're spot-on, though I wouldn't object to making the DR silver or magic based on the original text.  Just silver is probably better at their likely CR, though.


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

I added +4 to Str and set Cha equal to a wight's.  Does that seem OK?



> Animals sense the undead presence and flee the area, while the local vegetation slowly withers and dies within a quarter-mile of the creature’s lair.




Borrow unnatural aura from the wraith?


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## freyar (Oct 5, 2009)

Yes & yes.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2009)

Agreed to both. Their slam damage should go up to 1d6, as is in the original stat block.


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## freyar (Oct 6, 2009)

Actually 1d8 in the original, though I guess you mean 1 step up from the hill giant's slam which got reduced from 1d6 to 1d4?


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 34 ranks 
Stick with hill giant skills (Climb, Jump, Listen, Spot)?

Feats: 5
Stick with hill giant feats [Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Weapon Focus (greatclub)]?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm tempted to drop either Improved Bull's Rush or Improved Sunder, but I'm not sure for what. Improved Initiative?


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2009)

How about Reckless Offensive, since they're feral?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2009)

Drop both of those for both Reckless Offensive and Improved Initiative? I don't see them concentrating on weapons, but I do think they need to compensate for their awful Dexterity.


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2009)

Sounds good.

For skills, Climb 8, Jump 8, Listen 9, Spot 9?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2009)

Skills sound good, except should we perhaps give them some Move Silently? Wights are all about moving silently.


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## freyar (Oct 8, 2009)

All above sounds good.  For skills, how about Climb 6, Jump 6, Listen 7, Move Silenly 8, Spot 7?


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2009)

Updated.

Do we want to give 'em a racial bonus on Move Silently like the wight as well?



> Hill giants' favorite weapons are oversized clubs which do 2-12 +7 points of damage (double the damage of a man-sized club plus their strength bonus). They hurl rocks for 2-16 (2d8) points of damage. Their targets for such attacks must be between 3 and 200 yards away from the giant. They can catch rocks or other similar missiles 30% of the time.






> Barrowes can use any attack form they did in life, being slightly stronger in undead form. They inflict 1d8+7 hp damage per hit. They cause 2d8+7 hp damage when wielding a weapon, and boulders they hurl inflict 2d20 hp damage. They have a maximum range of 250 yards when hurling boulders






> Rock Throwing (Ex): The range increment is 120 feet for a hill giant's thrown rocks.




Increase the range increment to 180 feet like a stone giant?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 9, 2009)

Agreed to increasing the range increment. Since the base damage is pretty high in the 2e version, perhaps we should allow them to throw heavier (and thus more damaging) rocks?


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2009)

Agreed to that too.


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2009)

Updated.

CR 8-9?  Despite less hit points, they still have about the same change to hit as a hill giant (CR 7), but also do more damage and have energy drain.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 9, 2009)

Give it unholy toughness and I'd support CR 8. As is, CR 7 seems appropriate. Low AC and low HP means it'll go down quick.


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2009)

I'm a big fan of unholy toughness, so let's do that.

Updated.

I believe we're ready for the next one.

*Cairn*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Sub-tropical and temperate mountains
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: See below
INELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: D
ALIGNMENT: Netural evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: -2
MOVEMENT: 10
HIT DICE: 15
THAC0: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d10+8 or by weapon (2-16+8)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Hurling rocks for 3-36 (3d12), suprise
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +2 or better weapon to hit, surprised only on a 1
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
SIZE: H (18’ tall)
MORALE: Champion (16)
XP VALUE: 14,000

Except for their glowing eyes, cairns seem no different from living stone giants, largely because their flesh resembles stone.  Thus, when the creature’s eyes are closed or otherwise not visible to an observer, it can be virtually impossible to tell the difference between a living stone giant and an undead one.  Given their appearance and stiff movements, cairns could be mistaken for large stone golems.  Cairns are not mindless undead but beings with as much intelligence as they had in life.

Combat:  Cairns have a keen telepathic sense that enables them to tell when someone comes near even when that person is silent and/or invisible.  They make good use of this when waiting for victims in ambush positions, closing their bright, betraying eyes and blending in with the rocky background until the intruders come close enough to attack.  Because of the giant’s stony appearance, victims have a -5 penalty to their surprise rolls when they encounter a cairn underground.  Often the first hint of trouble is when large boulders start whizzing past them, hurled with incredible force (3d12 hp damage instead of 3d10 for live stone giants) to a range of 350 yards.  Cairns inflict more damage with physical blows and weapons than they did in life, causing 1d10+8 or 2d8+8 hp damage respectively.  Their undead nature penalizes them with a loss of Dexterity, however, and cairns cannot catch hurled stones and other large missiles as they did in life.   

Carins are slow but formidable opponents.  Aside from their excellent armor class, they are immune to all weapons that are not of +2 or better enchantment.  They are also immune to mind-affecting magic, sleep, hold, petrification, poison, paralyzation, and cold- and earth-based attacks.  Holy water harms them; each vial inflicts 2d4 hp damage.  The stone to flesh spell reduces their armor class to 0 (as it was in life) for a full turn (10 combat rounds), while transmute rock to mud actually reduces it to 7 for the same period of time.  Note that weapons of +2 or better enchantment are still needed to damage the creature.  Raise dead slays a cairn instantly, and although sunlight does not harm these creatures, they abhor and actively avoid it.

Habitat/Society:  Cairns dwell in mountain caverns, just as they did in life.  They never dwell in groups of more than three, however, and even these small gatherings are rare.  Undeath brings with it a sense of isolation and desire for solitude.  Some cairns deliberately distance themselves from their former clans to eliminate all possibility that they will return and destroy their old families in a jealous rage at the fact that they are still alive.

Ecology:  Cairns have no effect on the local ecology, for the eat nothing, being sustained wholly by energy from the Negative Material Plane.  Animals sense the presence of these giant undead and stay away, but these creatures generally choose the bleakest and most lifeless regions in which to dwell anyway.  Although any vegetation within a quarter-mile of a cairn’s lair withers in a matter of months, they lair in areas with little or no vegetation to begin with.  Their body parts are favored by mages who seek to make magical items connected with petrification or stone-based spells, and research is being conducted into the mysterious inner sense that lets them know when intruders are approaching, as such a power might be used in the construction of ESP-related items or potions.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #254 (1998).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 9, 2009)

Blindsight and DR 10/adamantine sound fair?


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2009)

That sounds about right.  The adamantine DR ties in nicely with their similarity to stone golem's reaction to specific spells.

Here's the 2e stone giant for comparison...

*Giant, Stone*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Sub-tropical and temperate mountains 
FREQUENCY: Rare 
ORGANIZATION: Tribal 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any 
DIET: Omnivorous 
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10) 
TREASURE: D 
ALIGNMENT: Neutral 
NO. APPEARING: 1-10 
ARMOR CLASS: 0 
MOVEMENT: 12 
HIT DICE: 14 + 1-3 hit points 
THAC0: 7 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8 or by weapon (2-12+8) 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Hurling rocks for 3-30 (3d10) 
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil 
SIZE: H (18' tall) 
MORALE: 16 
XP VALUE: 7,000 

Combat: When possible, stone giants fight from a distance. They are able to hurl rocks a minimum distance of 3 yards to a maximum distance of 300 yards, doing 3-30 (3d10) points of damage with each rock. These giants are able to catch stones and similar missiles 90% of the time. A favorite tactic of stone giants is to stand nearly motionless against rocks, blending in with the background, then moving forward to throw rocks, surprising their foes. Many giants set up piles of rocks near their lair which can be triggered like an avalanche when intruders get too close.

When stone giants are forced into melee combat, they use large clubs chiseled out of stone which do 2-12 (2d6) +8 points of damage; double normal (man-sized) club damage plus the giant's strength bonus.


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## freyar (Oct 11, 2009)

Hmm, HD increases by 1, AC improves by 2.  Want to carry that over?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 11, 2009)

I think so. We did with the barrowe.


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## freyar (Oct 12, 2009)

Sounds good.

What to do with this?  Not exactly magic immunity, we've taken care of DR, and the sunlight bit sounds like flavor:


> The stone to flesh spell reduces their armor class to 0 (as it was in life) for a full turn (10 combat rounds), while transmute rock to mud actually reduces it to 7 for the same period of time. Note that weapons of +2 or better enchantment are still needed to damage the creature. Raise dead slays a cairn instantly, and although sunlight does not harm these creatures, they abhor and actively avoid it.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 12, 2009)

We can give them a "spell vulnerability" Sq.


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Suggested increased range for thrown rocks?  We upgraded the barrow to a stone giant's range.  Increase to 140 feet like a cloud giant?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 13, 2009)

Sounds good to me. It also seems like they do more damage than an ordinary stone giant. Perhaps they get the Oversized Weapons Sq that can only be applied to throwing weapons?


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## freyar (Oct 13, 2009)

Agreed to all that.

Racial Hide bonus in rocky terrain as stone giant?  

Want to do something with withering vegetation or leave that as flavor?


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2009)

freyar said:


> Want to do something with withering vegetation or leave that as flavor?




Probably just flavor, since the barrowe had similar flavor and we didn't make it an ability.  Or we could assign an ability to both.  I think flavor will suffice, though.

Updated.

Should we note what happens when a stone giant elder becomes a cairn?



> *Stone Giant Elders*
> Some stone giants develop special abilities related to their environment. These giant elders have Charisma scores of at least 15 and spell-like abilities, which they use as 10th-level sorcerers. Once per day they can use stone shape, stone tell, and either transmute rock to mud or transmute mud to rock (DC 17). The save DC is Charisma-based. One in ten elders is a sorcerer, usually of 3rd to 6th level.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 14, 2009)

I think that stone giant elders shouldn't get any treatment for becoming cairns. They'd lose their inherent earth magic, I think.


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2009)

Fair enough.  I'll explicitly note that in the flavor text.

Updated.

Skills: 4 at 18 ranks (stone giants have Climb, Hide, Jump, Spot)

Feats: 6 (stone giants have Combat Reflexes, Iron Will, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot)


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## freyar (Oct 14, 2009)

I think the same Skills will do.  Same Feats, too, I think, plus Rapid Shot.


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2009)

Updated.

CR 9?  They are slightly superior to a standard stone giant.

We're basically finished.  However, I think we need to come up with how the come to be.  They can't create spawn, so they must arise spontaneously or be created through magic.   Suggestions?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2009)

Perhaps they're created when a stone giant dies after despoiling the earth? Using their strength to dig huge mines, build dams, that sort of thing.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2009)

That'll work.  Updated.   Another one done!

*Frostmourn*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Arctic lands 
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: See below
DIET: See below
INELLIGENCE: Low (5)
TREASURE: E
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 15
THAC0: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d10+9  or by weapon (2-20+9)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Freezing touch, Hurling rocks for 2-24 (2d12)
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Impervious to cold, +2 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
SIZE: H (21’ tall)
MORALE: Champion (16)
XP VALUE: 14,000

Frostmourns are undead frost giants whose bodily tissues were completely dessicated by the intense cold of their environment.  The things look like giant withered corpses with facial hair.  Their eyes have an evil gleam common to all undead.  A frostmourn can turn itself into a swirling white cloud or miniature blizzard but can’t attack in the former shape.

Combat:  Undeath gives frostmourns both increased Strength and decreased Dexterity.  Thus, although they can hurl boulders to a distance of 250 yards, inflicting 2d12 hp damage, they can no longer catch similar missiles as they could in life.  Greater Strength means they also cause more damage in melee combat, whether with weapons (2d20+9 hp damage) or the naked hand (1d10+9 hp damage).

Some frostmourns wear their old armor, but this is due to force of habit and nothing more, for their dessicated flesh is now so tough that they always have an armor class of 0, armor or no armor.  

The most potent attack of a frostmourn is its freezing touch.  If the victim does not save vs. death magic when touched by the giant, he suffers an additional 2d20 hp damage, making the saving throw reduces the damage by half.  In addition, all metallic items (weapons, armor, metallic flasks, or other containers, etc.) must save vs. cold or become brittle, falling apart almost immediately.  Those slain by a frostmourn cannot be revived with raise dead spell; a resurrection spell, however, works normally.

These creatures retain their immunity to cold-based attacks, and their undead status likewise gives them immunity to mind-affecting magic, sleep, hold, paralyzation, and poison.  Fire-based attacks, however, inflict double damage, and a vial of holy water splashed on the frostmourn inflicts 2d4 hp damage.  The A raise dead spell slays a frostmourn instantly.

Like most undead, frostmourns detest sunlight and actively avoid it, even though it causes them no harm.  In the chill northern environments they call home, however, the sun is often blotted out in the daytime by blizzards ro thick cloud cover, so these creatures can come out in the daytime on those occasions.  In addition, once far enough north, the sun goes down for months at a time when true winter comes around; PCs whoe neglect their research and sit around praying for the sun to drive off their undead enemies are in for a disappointment.

Habitat/Society:  Frostmourns are largely solitary creatures, although a quarter of all frostmourn lalirs have two residents instead of one.  All undead tend to hate companionship, and their innately chaotic nature only intesfies this hate.  Frostmourns often seek out and destroy enemies of their old tribe or clan, but they are just as likely to hunt their former kin.

Ecology:  Life is less abundant in the frigid north than in the warmer lowlands.  The barren conditions often disguise the desolation left by a frostmourn.  Newcomesrs to the area can easily find themselves unknowingly trampling through the lair of these dangerous monsters.  As they are sustained by the energy of the Negative Material Plane, frostmourns have no need to eat.  Wizards often use their body parts as material components for cold-based spells or in the construction of cold-related magical items.  Their dessicated hides are used in experiments to create the equivalent of magical leather armor that also gives immunity to cold-based attacks, but so far as is known, no successes have been achieved.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #254 (1998).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2009)

I kind of want the chilling touch to still do a d20 of damage, but that's just because I'm strange.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2009)

I share your strangeness.  

D20s don't see enough love in the damage arena.


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2009)

I sense a pattern!  These are all from the same article, huh?

Start with frost giant stats, go Str +6, Dex -4 or something?


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2009)

Indeed they are.

As usual, here are the 2e giant stats for comparison...

*Giant, Frost*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Arctic lands 
FREQUENCY: Very rare 
ORGANIZATION: Tribal 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any 
DIET: Omnivorous 
INTELLIGENCE: Low to average (5-10) 
TREASURE: E 
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil 
NO. APPEARING: 1-8 
ARMOR CLASS: 0 (5) 
MOVEMENT: 12 (15) 
HIT DICE: 14 + 1-4 hit points 
THAC0: 7 or 5 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8, or by weapon (2-16+9) 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Hurling rocks for 2-20 (2d10) 
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Impervious to cold 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil 
SIZE: H (21') 
MORALE: Very Steady (13-14) 
XP VALUE: 7,000 

Combat: Frost giants are immune to cold. Adult frost giants can hurl rocks for 2-20 (2d10) points of damage. Their minimum range is 3 yards while their maximum is 200 yards. They can catch similar large missiles 40% of the time. They usually will start combat at a distance, throwing rocks until they run out of ammunition, or the opponent closes. One of their favorite strategies is to ambush victims by hiding buried in the snow at the top of an icy or snowy slope where opponents will have difficulty reaching them.

Warriors favor huge battle axes. A frost giant's oversized weapons do double normal (man-sized) damage to all opponents, plus the giant's strength bonus. Thus, a frost giant battle axe does 2-16 (2d8) +9 points of damage.


Oh, and I'm still trying to figure out how something immune to cold can have its "bodily tissues were completely dessicated by the intense cold of their environment".   I guess it takes awhile to rise from the grave?


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2009)

Well, it is very dry when it gets cold.  Perhaps living frost giants all use humidifiers?

Increase HD by 1 and natural AC by 5 compared to frost giants, following the 2e versions?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 16, 2009)

They're dessicated mummy-types. Like Otzi.


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2009)

3e frost giants have Str 29, Dex 9, Con 21, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 11.

Compared to 2e frost giants, they have the high end of the Int range.

Frostmourns are listed as simply Low (5).

They have "increased Strength and decreased Dexterity".   Freyar suggested +6 Str.

We should give them a Cha boost like the other giant undead.

So...

Str 35, Dex 7, Con —, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 15?


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2009)

Let's decrease Int a bit and maybe also Wis.  Int 6, Wis 12?


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2009)

Sounds good.  I'm not sure why I boosted the Int.  

Updated.



> The most potent attack of a frostmourn is its freezing touch. If the victim does not save vs. death magic when touched by the giant, he suffers an additional 2d20 hp damage, making the saving throw reduces the damage by half. In addition, all metallic items (weapons, armor, metallic flasks, or other containers, etc.) must save vs. cold or become brittle, falling apart almost immediately. Those slain by a frostmourn cannot be revived with raise dead spell; a resurrection spell, however, works normally.




In addition to the damage, we might include something variation on this...

Frostbrittle (Su): Any weapon that strikes Cryonax has its hardness reduced by 5 for 10 rounds, thereby increasing the effectiveness of sunder attempts against the weapon. In addition, rolling a 1 on an attack with the targeted weapon causes it to take damage equivalent to the amount it would have dealt on a successful hit.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 17, 2009)

Frostbrittle sounds good, and we then of course have to give them Improved Sunder. What to do with the fact that raise dead doesn't work on their victims? Make their chilling touch a death effect?


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2009)

Thirded on frostbrittle as a side effect of the touch. And yes to the death effect, I think.  The old style save would support that at least.


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2009)

Good suggestions.

Should the freezing touch be a standard action, allowing it to target either a creature or weapon?   Or should it be an attack action, allowing it to strike twice?   Should its slam attacks deliver the damage as well?   What about creatures striking the frostmourn?


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## freyar (Oct 19, 2009)

I'd say just make it part of the slam.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 19, 2009)

Part of the slam, brittle but no damage to creatures striking the frostmourn with metal weapons.


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2009)

Yes, that makes good sense.


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2009)

Like so?

Freezing Touch (Su):  A frostmourn's slam attacks deal an additional 2d20 points of cold damage (Fort DC X halves the damage).  Similarly, any creature striking a frostmourn with natural attacks or unarmed strikes or grappling a frostmourn suffers 2d20 points of cold damage (Fort DC X half).   frostmourn's freezing touch is a death effect, so raise dead will not restore a creature slain in this manner to life (although ressurection or similar magic will).  The save DC is Charisma-based.

Frostbrittle (Su): Any weapon that strikes a frostmourn has its hardness reduced by 5 for 10 rounds, thereby increasing the effectiveness of sunder attempts against the weapon. In addition, rolling a 1 on an attack with the targeted weapon causes it to take damage equivalent to the amount it would have dealt on a successful hit.


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2009)

Rather than "slain in this manner" say "slain by a frostmourn's slam or by cold damage from touching a frostmourn" maybe.  Also, you mean "resurrection."


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2009)

Yeah, I always have trouble spelling that word for some reason.  

Updated.


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2009)

> SPECIAL DEFENSES: Impervious to cold, +2 or better weapon to hit




DR 10/magic?  Or 5/bludgeoning like skeletons?

Skills: 18
Frost giants have Climb, Craft (any one), Intimidate, Jump, Spot

Feats: 6 (frost giants have Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Power Attack)


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2009)

DR 5/magic and bludgeoning?

Let's drop Craft, I think, and give them Climb 4, Intimidate 5, Jump 4, Spot 5?

Feats: swap Imp Overrun for Imp Bull Rush and add Awesome Blow.


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2009)

All that sounds good.

Updated.

Frostmourns are about 15 feet tall and weigh about x pounds.  (Frost giants weigh 2,800 pounds).

Do anything with this?



> A frostmourn can turn itself into a swirling white cloud or miniature blizzard but can’t attack in the former shape.


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 24, 2009)

Treat it as gaseous form.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2009)

Treat it as wind walk.


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## freyar (Oct 25, 2009)

Wind walk seems a little too long-range, so my vote goes with gaseous form.  If we want to jazz it up, maybe the gaseous form can have the effect of obscuring mist?


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2009)

How about toning down wind walk?

Snowform (Su):  A frostmourn may assume the form of a swirling white cloud of snow.  This functions as a wind walk spell, but the frostmourn cannot take other creatures with it, and it cannot increase its speed to greater than 60 feet.   A frostmourn may remain in snowform for a toal of 10 minutes each day.


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## freyar (Oct 28, 2009)

That's reasonable enough, sure.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2009)

Updated.

2,200 pounds?

CR 11?


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2009)

Sure!


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2009)

Seems appropriate. What's next? Undead fire giants?


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2009)

But of course!  

*Firegaunt*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any temperate, subtropical, tropical
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: See below
INELLIGENCE: Low (5)
TREASURE: E
ALIGNMENT: Laweful evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: -1
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 16
THAC0: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d10+10  or by weapon (2-24+10)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Burning touch, Hurling rocks for 2-24 (2d12)
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Impervious to fire, +2 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
SIZE: H (18’ tall)
MORALE: Champion (16)
XP VALUE: 15,000

Firegaunts are undead fire giants who have deteriorated spectacularly.  Their jaws jut out in a pronounced muzzle, giving them a vaguely baboonlike appearance.  They also give off a sulfuric stench.  Their eyes and tongues have completely rotted away, and small portions of flesh on their body and limbs have decomposed and vanished.  Out of these holes pour tongues of flame several feet in length, while what remains of their physical bodies is covered with rippling tongues of flame.  The overall effect is quite horrifying.  Some of these undead giants still wear the same armor they wore in life, though holes have melted through it in those places where the tongues of flame erupt from their decaying bodies.

Combat:  With or without their armor, firgaunts always armor class -1.  Their undead nature has increased their Strength due to an influx of energy from the Negative Material Plane, while at the same time reducing their decreased Dexterity.  They can hurl boulders to a distance of 250 yards that cause 2d12 hp damage per boulder that hits, but they can no longer catch boulders.  Their great Strength also means that they inflict 1d10+10 hp damage with their bare hands alone, while a weapon enables them to inflict 2d12+10 hp damage per blow.  In addition, their fiery nature means that any creature they touch with their bare hands must save vs. spell or suffer 2d20 hp damage from burning (half that if the saving throw is made.) Possessions on the burned victim must save vs. magical fire or be destroyed.  Anyone killed by a firegaunt is immolated in flames and reduced to ash; only a resurrection spell or more powerful magic can restore victims slain in this manner.

Firegaunts are immune to all fire-based attacks.  Water- and cold-based attacks inflict double damage, and holy water inflicts 2-8 hp damage per vial splashed on the monster.  Mind -affecting magic, sleep, hold, paralyzation, and poison attacks are all usesless against these creatures, but raise dead spell slays a firegaunt instantly.  Sunlight doesn’t bother them, partially because they are already adapted to constant light from the flames shooting out of them, and partly because of the continuous shade each creature’s cloud of smoke provides.  Thus, these undead can come out an any time, day or night, though night attacks are the most spectacular.

Habitat/Society:  Firegautns are loners, with no more than two of these creatures ever dwelling together.  Indeed, with flames in their sockets instead of eyes, they seem incapable of admiring familiar or beautiful sights, although the never have trouble finding their victims during an attack.  Firegaunts often go on long, seemingly aimless rampages, burning and slaying everything in their path, including their former kinsmen.

Ecology:  Firegeaunts tend to burn everyting in sight.  Though initially destructive, this burning often promotes new growth in forests or grasslands, which in turn provides more nourishment to the local herbivores, upon whom the local carnivores feed.  Firegaunts themselves have no need of food, being sustained entirely by energy from the Negative Material Plane.  Their body parts are useful in any fire-based magical research.  Immersing a bottle in fireguant’s internal fires for an unspecified period of time is said to be one means of producing an eversmoking bottle.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #254 (1998).


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2009)

Hmm, increased natural armor, burn like a fire elemental, boosted abilties and rock throwing.  Fire subtype.  Anything else, really?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 30, 2009)

I kind of want to give them a secondary bite attack, based on their baboonish muzzle, but aside from that textual divergence, what you said sounded pretty good. Note that the burn does damage to items as well. A fire shield type effect, perhaps, with a rider akin to the frostbrittle ability?


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2009)

The bite sounds amusing the way you describe it, so let's go for it.

Hmm, just use burn, but let it catch equipment on fire on a failed save?  Actually, can normal burn catch equipment (ie, clothing) on fire?  That's sort of vague.  I guess RAW, it doesn't, but still.


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

For the frostbrittle equivalent, why not just borrow this?

Melt Weapons (Ex): Any metal weapon that strikes a magmin must succeed on a DC 12 Fortitude save or melt away into slag. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## freyar (Nov 2, 2009)

Ah, melt weapons is perfect!

Any other special abilities we want?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 3, 2009)

Melt weapons absolutely works.


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2009)

Updated.

We've probably got enough special abilities, unless you want to do anything with this...



> They also give off a sulfuric stench.




Or this...



> Water- and cold-based attacks inflict double damage, and holy water inflicts 2-8 hp damage per vial splashed on the monster.




Vulnerability to water like the scorched one?

Or this...



> Sunlight doesn’t bother them, partially because they are already adapted to constant light from the flames shooting out of them, and partly because of the continuous shade each creature’s cloud of smoke provides.  Thus, these undead can come out an any time, day or night, though night attacks are the most spectacular.




Sheds light like a continual flame spell?  Some form of smoke effects?



			
				Smoke Effects said:
			
		

> A character who breathes heavy smoke must make a Fortitude save each round (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing. A character who chokes for 2 consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.
> 
> Smoke obscures vision, giving concealment (20% miss chance) to characters within it.


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## Leopold (Nov 3, 2009)

these remind me of those golems from Hellboy, the ones that had a firey glow to them and gave off wisps of smoke. 

I like the smoke effects and give them double damage when hit with water spells and the like.


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## freyar (Nov 3, 2009)

Let's say vulnerability to water again.  They also shed light like a torch, and creatures within 5 (10?) ft are subject to smoke effects (should we give it concealment?).


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 4, 2009)

I'm alright with ignoring the smoke, but I like them giving off light and the water vulnerability.


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## Shade (Nov 4, 2009)

On further thought, let's drop the smoke effects, since the original included it only as mentioning for keeping sunlight off of them, not for an actual combat benefit.

Updated.

Skills: 4 at 19 ranks
Fire giants have Climb, Craft (any one), Intimidate, Jump, Spot

Feats: 6
Fire giants have Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Power Attack


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 4, 2009)

Drop Improved Overrun, add Multiattack for the bite?


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## Leopold (Nov 5, 2009)

I like multiattack. Is Iron Will valid? Are these things more int undead and resistant than any other feat?


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## freyar (Nov 5, 2009)

There's no reason undead can't take Iron Will.


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2009)

Updated.

CR 11?

Firegaunts are about 12 feet tall and weigh about x pounds. (Fire giants weigh 7,000 pounds, but these are "gaunt" and partially composed of fire).


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2009)

CR 11 is ok.

I also agree with making them lighter.  5000 lb?  Or even down to 4000?


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2009)

Updated.

Since we once again are dealing with undead without the ability to create spawn, we'll need to provide an explanation for their existence.


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2009)

Fire giants that are frozen to death might spontaneously combust?


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2009)

Good call.

Updated.

Time for the next one?


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## freyar (Nov 10, 2009)

Looks good!

Cloud giants or storm giants next?


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2009)

*Spectral Cloud*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any mountains or magical cloud islands
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: See below
INELLIGENCE: Very (12)
TREASURE: E, Q (x5)
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 0	
MOVEMENT: 18, fly 36 (E)
HIT DICE: 18
THAC0: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-16
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Energy drain, Hurling rocks for 3-30 (3d10)
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +3 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
SIZE: H (24’ tall or 24’ radius)
MORALE: Fanatic (18)
XP VALUE: 16,000

A spectral cloud frequently appears as a swirling mass of brilliant white vapors, like a regular cloud lite by the sun.  When preparing for combat, it takes the form of a gaseous, 24’ tall humanoid, revealing its origins as an undead cloud giant.  In humanoid form, its gleaming eyes light up its face; in cloud form, those eyes can be seen in the exact center of the swirling mass.  Spectral clouds are capable of flight when in cloud form.  The speed given above is how fast they can fly under their own power; when a strong wind blows in the direction they want to go, they can achieve even greater speeds.

Combat:  In physical combat, spectral clouds attack with a single blow of their gaseous, chilling hands, inflicting 2d8 hp damage.  In addition, unless the victim makes his saving throw vs. death magic, he loses one life level to an energy-draining attack, affecting skills, spells known, etc.  Living creatures who are slain by spectral clouds become small spectral clouds—only real giants killed by energy-draining attacks can actually become true spectral clouds.  Spectral clouds formed in this manner can assume either the gaseous humanoid or cloudlike form of their creator, but they lack the telekinetic ability given below.  These imitations are under the control of their slayer as half-strength spectral clouds, inflicting 1-8 hp damage per attack.  If their slayer and master is destroyed, they become free-willed undead monsters in their own right.

Spectral clouds have a limited telekinetic attack that enables them to levitate boulders and hurl them at an enemy up to 300 yards away, causing 3d10 hp damage.  This power, however, cannot be used to catch or deflect large missiles.

Spectral clouds are immune to mind -affecting spells, sleep, hold, poison, paralyzation, death, and cold-based attacks.  In addition, normal and relatively weak magical weapons simply pass through their gaseous bodies; weapons of +3 enchantment or better are needed to harm their airy forms.  Holy water inflicts 2-8 hp damage epr vial, and a raise dead spell slays it outright.  A spectral cloud’s ancestry, however, makes it immune to sunlight, making it one of the comparatively few undead who roam about in broad daylight as well as at night.  It often soars among the clouds at high speed, just one cloud among many; characters who own a carpet of flying or similar item should take heed of this phenomenon.

Habitat/Society:  Spectral clouds have no true society, being as solitary as other undead.  They like to haunt or destroy their old clans, doing so out of sheer envy of their kin who revel in the pleasures of life.

Ecology:  Spectral clouds have no true function in the environment, other than to diminish it by slaying everything that crosses their paths.  Animals sense the presence and avoid them, but few adventurers notice this phenomenon, as spectral clouds make their lairs at the very tops of mountain peaks, where little life is to be found, anyway.  They do not eat, though they enjoy draining the life from their victims.  Spectral cloud essence is said to be useful in the making of a potion of gaseous form, while some mages are trying to find a way to entrap these intelligent (if gaseous) undead in bottles, as an interesting substitute for the efreeti bottle.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #254 (1998).


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## freyar (Nov 10, 2009)

Gaseous but corporeal like a belker?


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2009)

Yeah, that makes sense.  In fact, this part...



> The speed given above is how fast they can fly under their own power; when a strong wind blows in the direction they want to go, they can achieve even greater speeds.




...makes it sound like they are permanently under the effect of a wind walk spell.


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

Yes, that should probably be part of the cloud form.  Any attacks to give them in cloud form?  Flying PCs are advised to look out for them, but they seem to attack in giant form, when they can't fly.  Acid Fog or Solid Fog as an SLA would nicely improve them compared to cloud giants, but something like lightning bolt is more along the lines of what I'm thinking.


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.   What should we do about Str?  It sounds like they simply touch foes, and they hurl rocks with telekinesis, so they really have no need for high Str.

The gaseous phiuls in Fiend Folio have Str 11.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 12, 2009)

Touch attacks and telekinesis seem appropriate. A neutral Str score also makes sense. 

How do we want to handle the create spawn, since the new ones are at half power?


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2009)

Agreed to Str 10-11.  Also to touch and telekinesis, but I do wonder if some attack in cloud form might be appropriate.

I had been wondering about the spawn also.  It's almost like we'd need to write a Medium size version of the same monster.


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2009)

'tis a shame this isn't Pathfinder, or we could simply apply the Young template.  

We could probably get by with a simplified stat block for Medium creatures.

Updated.


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2009)

I had the same thought.  Might be an easy way to write the stats, though!

Any other thoughts about what to put into cloud form?  I'll leave off the lightning bolt if no one else likes it.


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2009)

I like the lightning bolt...I was just distracted by the other issues before addressing it.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 13, 2009)

Agreed to the lightning bolt and the smaller creature's seperate statblock.


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## freyar (Nov 13, 2009)

Ok, let's finish the main monster and write the mini versions by using Paizo's young template (or some similar template from somewhere) with whatever tweaks are necessary.


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## Shade (Nov 13, 2009)

One reason to reconsider the lightning bolt:  the next one (the undead storm giant) is all about lightning.

Wanna fall back on your earlier suggestion of fog cloud/acid cloud, or maybe work in ice storm or other weather-related effects?


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## freyar (Nov 13, 2009)

A very good point.  What if their bodies in cloud form normally have the properties of a fog cloud but can take on the properties of solid fog or stinking cloud X rounds per day, with also the possibility of an ice storm-like effect in the cloud 1/day or something?


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## Shade (Nov 13, 2009)

I like that! Its reminscent of a swarm/engulf attack.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 14, 2009)

Yeah! Engulfing solid fog! I like!


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## freyar (Nov 14, 2009)

Engulf is just the right way to describe this!  So we want solid fog, any other options?


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2009)

Cold damage while trapped within it?


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## freyar (Nov 16, 2009)

Sure, solid fog with cold it is!  Variation on engulf, then?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 17, 2009)

Makes sense to me.


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2009)

Modifying the g-cube's engulf...

Engulfing Fog (Ex): A spectral cloud can simply move over Large or smaller creatures as a standard action. It cannot make a chilling touch attack during a round in which it engulfs. The spectral cloud merely has to move over the opponents, affecting as many as it can cover. Opponents can make opportunity attacks against the spectral cloud, but if they do so they are not entitled to a saving throw. Those who do not attempt attacks of opportunity must succeed on a DC x Reflex save or be engulfed; on a success, they are pushed back or aside (opponent’s choice) as the spectral cloud moves forward. Engulfed creatures are not considered to be grappled, but moving through the spectral cloud's space is similar to the effects of a solid fog spell.   Each round a creature remains engulfed, it suffers xdx points of cold damage. The save DC is Strength-based and includes a +x racial bonus.


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## freyar (Nov 17, 2009)

That's pretty good!  Damage equal to chilling touch?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 18, 2009)

Damage equal to its touch or half its touch would be appropriate.


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## Shade (Nov 18, 2009)

Updated.

Should we use alternate form to distinguish the two forms?

Deflection bonus instead of natural armor, since their foglike?


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## freyar (Nov 18, 2009)

Either alternate form or a special Su Cloudform.  We should probably also add that the engulf only works in cloud form.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 19, 2009)

I think natural armor works. Blows are slowed by their thick layers of cloudy flesh, not deflected by magical force.


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2009)

Like so?

Cloudform (Su): A spectral cloud may assume the form of a swirling white swirling mass of brilliant white vapors. This functions as a wind walk spell, but the spectral cloud cannot take other creatures with it, and it cannot increase its speed to greater than 60 feet. A spectral cloud may remain in cloudform for as long as it desires.   While in cloudform, the spectral cloud loses its chilling touch attack, but gains access to its engulfing fog attack.


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## freyar (Nov 19, 2009)

Excellent!


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2009)

Updated.

DR 15/magic?

For the gaseous giant form, borrow this?

Gaseous Form (Ex): A phiuhl's insubstantial form grants it immunity to critical hits. A phiuhl cannot run, but it can fly (slowly), and it is subject to winds. It cannot wear armor, manipulate solid objects, or enter water or other liquids. It can pass through small holes or narrow openings--even mere cracks


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## freyar (Nov 20, 2009)

If we let it fly, it needs to be quite slow.  The original did spell out that only the cloud form could fly, so we should keep the giant flight to 5 or 10 ft or something.


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2009)

I'm fine with leaving off flying in this form.

Gaseous Giant Form (Ex): A spectral cloud's insubstantial giant form grants it immunity to critical hits. It cannot run, and it is subject to winds. It cannot wear armor, manipulate solid objects, or enter water or other liquids. It can pass through small holes or narrow openings--even mere cracks.


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## freyar (Nov 20, 2009)

Looks good to me.


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2009)

Updated.

Damage reduction 10 or 15/magic?  The original was immune to less than +3 weapons.

Skills:  5 at 21 ranks
Cloud giants have Climb, Craft (any one), Intimidate, Listen, Perform (harp), Sense Motive, Spot

Feats: 7 (cloud giants have Awesome Blow, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Iron Will, Power Attack)


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## freyar (Nov 21, 2009)

DR 15 would fit with +3 weapons.  And it's not likely that they'll be facing many nonmagic weapons anyway, so we can penalize adventurers who aren't using them.

Climb, Intimidate, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot.  Climb for the giant form?  I don't see these performing or crafting much any more.

Due to reduced Str, we're going to need to change all those feats except Iron Will.  Any ideas?


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## Shade (Nov 23, 2009)

Dodge, Improved Critical (chilling touch), Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (chilling touch)?

If we boost Int to 13, we could add Combat Expertise and Whirlwind Attack, which seem thematically appropriate.


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## freyar (Nov 23, 2009)

I could see stretching Int to 13.  Drop Cha a point to compensate or don't worry about it?


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## Shade (Nov 23, 2009)

I don't think we need to drop Cha, since they already took a big Str hit.

Updated.

CR 12?


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## freyar (Nov 23, 2009)

Oh, I meant compared to the original monster.  But I don't need to decrease anything.

I'm not sure about CR.  To be honest, I think they might not be any better than a CR 11 dread wraith.  Yeah, they have more hp, but I don't think their attacks are quite as scary.


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## Shade (Nov 23, 2009)

Good point.  CR 11 is the same as a standard cloud giant as well.  Let's go with that.

All done, then?


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## freyar (Nov 23, 2009)

Seems like it.


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## Shade (Nov 23, 2009)

Last one!

*Temperament*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Mountains peaks, cloud islands, sea caverns
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: See below
INELLIGENCE: Exceptional (16)
TREASURE: E, Q (x10), S
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -6
MOVEMENT: 12, swim 12, fly 15 (E)
HIT DICE: 21
THAC0: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-20 or by weapon (3-36+12)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Energy-draining lightning bolt
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Impervious to electricity, +3 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
SIZE: G (26’ tall)
MORALE: Fanatic (18)
XP VALUE: 21,000

Temperaments are undead storm giants.  Their skin is the deep black of a thunderhead just before an electrical storm.  Sparks and lightning bolts, neon blue in color, dance along their bodies, while larger lightning bolts several yards in length constantly shoot forth from the eyes and mouth.  When they are outside, they can summon at will a miniature thunderhead above their heads to enshroud them in their own private thunderstorm.  It doesn’t inflict damage in combat, but it’s frightfully impressive, especially at night.  They can also take the form of a crackling thunderhead, though in that case, the only attack they can make is the lightning strike listed below.  The giant’s movement rate in this form is 15, but all other attributes remain the same.

Combat:  Temperaments have one physical attack per round:  either a blow form a lightning-sheathed fist that inflicts 2d10+12 hp damage, or a weapon strike that inflicts 3d12+12 hp damage on the foe.  Unlike other undead giants, they cannot hurl boulders.

Once per round, in lieu of a physical attack, a temperament may shoot a massive bolt of blue lightning.  This lightning strike inflicts 1d10 hp damage to the victim, or half that if a saving throw vs. wands is successful. Making a second save vs. death magic protects the victim from the energy-draining properties of this lightning bolt, which steals one level away from the target.  (Unlike other undead giants, temperaments can only make an energy draining attack as part of a lightning strike, not by physically touching the victim.)  Those who are slain by this attack become half-strength temperaments under the control of their slayer.  Giants are the exception to this, becoming regular temperaments.  The electrical attack of these new recruits inflicts only 1d8 hp damage, while their Strength is not greater than it was in life.  Upon the death of their “creator”, these new monsters become free-willed undead who wander off to find their own lairs.

Temperaments are immune to both cold- and electrical-based attacks, as well as mind -affecting magic, sleep, hold, poison, death, and paralyzation.  Holy water inflicts 2-8 hp damage epr vial, and a raise dead spell utterly destroys them.  Normal weapons, or magical ones of less than +3 enchantment, do not harm them.  Although they wear no armor, their skin is dessicated to the point that it has a natural armor class of -6.  These undead creatures are immune to sunlight and are not bothered by it in the least.  This is partly because of their light-producing electrical nature but also because the thunderhead that they invariably summon up when they go outside provides them with ample shade.

Habitat/Society:  Temperaments are the most solitary of all undead giants; they are only found alone.  The only exceptions are half-strength creatures created by the slaying of other giants, and these are not true equals.  Temperaments often make revenge attacks upon their former families, wipiong them out so as to deny them the pleasures of life.

Ecology:  Temperaments eat no food and are sustained entirely by energy from the Negative Material Plane.  They do, however, obetain satisfaction from draining the life energy of living things.  All animals sense the presence of these undead monsters and shun the areas they call home; temperaments dwell in the same places where storm giants do.  Temperament bone or essence is considered just the thing for the finest quality wands of lightning, or a nonmetallic ring of shocking grasp.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #254 (1998).


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## freyar (Nov 23, 2009)

These just reminded me that we forgot the create spawn (and half-strength non-giant spawn) for the spectral clouds (since these have that too)!


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## Shade (Nov 23, 2009)

D'oh!  You're right.


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## freyar (Nov 23, 2009)

Ok, first off, they need create spawn.  If they kill a creature of the giant type, it becomes a spectral cloud?  And humanoids become the pint-sized version still to be written?


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2009)

Indeed.



> Living creatures who are slain by spectral clouds become small spectral clouds—only real giants killed by energy-draining attacks can actually become true spectral clouds. Spectral clouds formed in this manner can assume either the gaseous humanoid or cloudlike form of their creator, but they lack the telekinetic ability given below. These imitations are under the control of their slayer as half-strength spectral clouds, inflicting 1-8 hp damage per attack. If their slayer and master is destroyed, they become free-willed undead monsters in their own right.




Create Spawn (Su): Any giant slain by a spectral cloud's energy drain attack becomes a spectral cloud in 1d4 rounds. Any humanoid slain by a spectral cloud becomes a lesser spectral cloud (see below) in 1d4 rounds. Spawn are under the command of the spectral cloud that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.

Lesser Spectral Cloud
Medium Undead (Air)
Hit Dice: xd12+x (x hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 Dex, +6 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +x/+x
Attack: Chilling touch +x melee touch (1d8 plus energy drain)
Full Attack: Chilling touch +x melee touch (1d8 plus energy drain)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Energy drain, engulfing fog
Special Qualities: Cloudform, damage reduction 15/magic, darkvision 60 ft., gaseous form, low-light vision, unholy toughness
Saves: Fort +x, Ref +x, Will +x
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 13, Con —, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 17
Skills: x
Feats: x
Environment: Temperate mountains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually neutral evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: —


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## freyar (Nov 24, 2009)

Uhh, 9HD, cut it in half?


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2009)

That seems reasonable.  

I'd recommend we don't allow the spawn to create spawn of their own, to avoid complicating things further.


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2009)

Updated.

Which 4 feats to retain?

Combat Expertise, Dodge, Improved Critical (chilling touch), Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (chilling touch), Whirlwind Attack

Lower DR to 10/magic?

CR 7?


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## freyar (Nov 24, 2009)

Agreed.  Actually, I think we can remove the energy drain if we want, though perhaps they need it to be viable at 9HD.  Reduce DR to DR 10 or even 5.  And I guess we should change it so that the engulfing fog can only engulf Small or smaller (or drop the engulf altogether).


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2009)

Let's drop engulfing fog, but keep energy drain.

Retain Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (chilling touch)?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 25, 2009)

This all seems fair (sorry, I'm playing catch-up).


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## freyar (Nov 25, 2009)

Those feats sound good.  (I think I missed your earlier post above.)  CR 7 seems ok.


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## Shade (Nov 25, 2009)

Updated.

Finished?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 25, 2009)

Its AC is really sad for a creature of its CR, but other than that, it looks pretty good.


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## Shade (Nov 25, 2009)

True.  We could bump its nat armor by 1 to match a living cloud giant's.  Beyond that, they're equal if you take the chain shirt worn by the sample cloud giant out of the equation.

We could give 'em mage armor as an SLA to even 'em up if you'd like.  Cloud giants have some SLAs, so it wouldn't be an extreme departure.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 26, 2009)

A few SLAs seem appropriate. Mage armor, telekinesis, whispering wind?


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## freyar (Nov 26, 2009)

Those SLAs seem appropriate, sure!

The lesser spectral cloud is probably still ok, though.


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2009)

They already get telekinesis as a Su ability, but the other two look fine.

3/day for each?


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## freyar (Nov 30, 2009)

We could just roll the Su telekinesis into the SLAs (at will) if it doesn't make a difference.

3/day for the others sounds good.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 1, 2009)

Giving it telekinesis as an SLA makes it look a little less out-of-place.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2009)

Sounds reasonable.

Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 2, 2009)

Should the lesser versions get any SLAs?  I'm kind of leaning against it, and we could move to the temperaments if you guys agree.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2009)

I'd say no to SLAs for the lessers, and yes to moving on to temperaments.


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## freyar (Dec 2, 2009)

Ready, chief!


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2009)

Round Two...

*Temperament*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Mountains peaks, cloud islands, sea caverns
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: See below
INELLIGENCE: Exceptional (16)
TREASURE: E, Q (x10), S
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -6
MOVEMENT: 12, swim 12, fly 15 (E)
HIT DICE: 21
THAC0: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-20 or by weapon (3-36+12)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Energy-draining lightning bolt
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Impervious to electricity, +3 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
SIZE: G (26’ tall)
MORALE: Fanatic (18)
XP VALUE: 21,000

Temperaments are undead storm giants.  Their skin is the deep black of a thunderhead just before an electrical storm.  Sparks and lightning bolts, neon blue in color, dance along their bodies, while larger lightning bolts several yards in length constantly shoot forth from the eyes and mouth.  When they are outside, they can summon at will a miniature thunderhead above their heads to enshroud them in their own private thunderstorm.  It doesn’t inflict damage in combat, but it’s frightfully impressive, especially at night.  They can also take the form of a crackling thunderhead, though in that case, the only attack they can make is the lightning strike listed below.  The giant’s movement rate in this form is 15, but all other attributes remain the same.

Combat:  Temperaments have one physical attack per round:  either a blow form a lightning-sheathed fist that inflicts 2d10+12 hp damage, or a weapon strike that inflicts 3d12+12 hp damage on the foe.  Unlike other undead giants, they cannot hurl boulders.

Once per round, in lieu of a physical attack, a temperament may shoot a massive bolt of blue lightning.  This lightning strike inflicts 1d10 hp damage to the victim, or half that if a saving throw vs. wands is successful. Making a second save vs. death magic protects the victim from the energy-draining properties of this lightning bolt, which steals one level away from the target.  (Unlike other undead giants, temperaments can only make an energy draining attack as part of a lightning strike, not by physically touching the victim.)  Those who are slain by this attack become half-strength temperaments under the control of their slayer.  Giants are the exception to this, becoming regular temperaments.  The electrical attack of these new recruits inflicts only 1d8 hp damage, while their Strength is not greater than it was in life.  Upon the death of their “creator”, these new monsters become free-willed undead who wander off to find their own lairs.

Temperaments are immune to both cold- and electrical-based attacks, as well as mind -affecting magic, sleep, hold, poison, death, and paralyzation.  Holy water inflicts 2-8 hp damage epr vial, and a raise dead spell utterly destroys them.  Normal weapons, or magical ones of less than +3 enchantment, do not harm them.  Although they wear no armor, their skin is dessicated to the point that it has a natural armor class of -6.  These undead creatures are immune to sunlight and are not bothered by it in the least.  This is partly because of their light-producing electrical nature but also because the thunderhead that they invariably summon up when they go outside provides them with ample shade.

Habitat/Society:  Temperaments are the most solitary of all undead giants; they are only found alone.  The only exceptions are half-strength creatures created by the slaying of other giants, and these are not true equals.  Temperaments often make revenge attacks upon their former families, wipiong them out so as to deny them the pleasures of life.

Ecology:  Temperaments eat no food and are sustained entirely by energy from the Negative Material Plane.  They do, however, obetain satisfaction from draining the life energy of living things.  All animals sense the presence of these undead monsters and shun the areas they call home; temperaments dwell in the same places where storm giants do.  Temperament bone or essence is considered just the thing for the finest quality wands of lightning, or a nonmetallic ring of shocking grasp.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #254 (1998).


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2009)

Ok, we need the "lesser" version for create spawn.

Energy draining lightning bolt.

I think melee attacks should add some electricity damage.

I'm thinking an Intimidate bonus from the storm cloud above their head.

Another cloud form.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2009)

Compared to a 2e storm giant, it looks like these have the same Str, but 2 additional HD.

So, simply boost Cha by 2 or 4, and otherwise retain storm giant's relative stats?


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2009)

Sure thing.  And add in those 2 HD.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

For the energy-draining lightning bolt, here's a start...

Dark Lightning (Su): As a standard action, a temperament may unleash a x-foot line of lightning fused with negative energy.  This deals 1d10 points of electricity damage.  Additionally, living creatures hit by a temperament's dark lightning gain one negative level. The DC is x for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the temperament gains 5 temporary hit points.

The damage seems awfully poor for a lightning bolt at that level.  We don't want it to be so high that it becomes preferable to a full melee attack, but I think a bit of a boost wouldn't hurt.


Do we want to retain any of the following from the storm giant?

Freedom of Movement (Su): Storm giants have a continuous freedom of movement ability as the spell (caster level 20th). The effect can be dispelled, but the storm giant can create it again on its next turn as a free action.

Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—call lightning (DC 15), chain lightning (DC 18). Caster level 15th. 2/day—control weather, levitate. Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Water Breathing (Ex): Storm giants can breathe underwater indefinitely and can freely use their spell-like abilities while submerged.


Suggestions for the "intimidating thunderhead" writeup


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 4, 2009)

Is the lightning bolt a line or a ranged touch attack? It sounds more like the latter.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2009)

The original writeup definitely sounds more like the latter, but the former is more of a true lightning bolt.   If we go with the latter, I'd suggest we call it "dark jolt" or something, as "lightning" immediately suggests "line of electricity" in 3e.


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2009)

I vote for the line.  Wasn't lightning usually more like a line in 2e also?  The damage is a bit low, but it also has energy drain.  We could always boost to our favorite d12 damage.   Or we could replace the chain lightning SLA with a unique Su that's effectively chain lightning plus energy drain.  Undecided on the other SLAs.

For Intimidation, I was mostly thinking of the storm cloud as flavor and a flat racial bonus.  The summoning issue can be flavor, or we can leave the cloud there permanently, which I kind of favor.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 6, 2009)

I think our lightning should be a ranged touch attack ala dark jolt. We could make it do 5-10d6 electricity damage and one negative level or something. These guys are prtty high CR--make 'em earn it!


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## freyar (Dec 6, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I think our lightning should be a ranged touch attack ala dark jolt. We could make it do 5-10d6 electricity damage and one negative level or something. These guys are prtty high CR--make 'em earn it!



Fair enough.  But then let's keep the lightning-themed SLAs, at least chain lightning, for mutli-critter attacks.


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I think our lightning should be a ranged touch attack ala dark jolt. We could make it do 5-10d6 electricity damage and one negative level or something. These guys are prtty high CR--make 'em earn it!






freyar said:


> Fair enough.  But then let's keep the lightning-themed SLAs, at least chain lightning, for mutli-critter attacks.




OK, let's do those.  And for the electrical SLAs, how about we allow it to infuse 'em with half negative energy damage?


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## freyar (Dec 7, 2009)

Good idea, as long as it's not energy drain (got to keep that dark jolt unique).


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2009)

Agreed!  So something like this?

Dark Jolt (Su):  As a standard action, a temperament may target a single creature within x feet with a jolt of blue lightning fused with negative energy.  If the temperament succeeds on a ranged touch attack, the victim suffers 5d12 points of electricity damage. Additionally, living creatures hit by a temperament's dark jolt gain one negative level. The DC is x for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the temperament gains 5 temporary hit points.

Black Lightning (Su): A temperament may choose to infuse its electricity-based spell-like abilities with negative energy.  It must declare this intention before making the attack.  Victims take half electricity damage and half negative energy damage.


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2009)

60 ft on the jolt?  Looks good!


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2009)

Since it can be used every round, should we add it to the attack lines?

Suggested electricity damage rider for melee attacks?


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2009)

Yes on dark jolt in attack lines.

2d6 electricity?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2009)

I agree with freyar's last post completely.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 5 at 24 ranks
Storm giants have Climb, Concentration, Craft (any one), Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Perform (sing), Sense Motive, Spot

Feats: 8 (1 can be epic)
Storm giants have Awesome Blow, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Power Attack


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2009)

Climb, Concentration, Intimidate, Listen, Spot.

Storm giant feats plus Ability Focus (dark jolt)?


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2009)

Sure.

Since it gets good Will saves as an undead, I could see dropping Iron Will for the more thematically releveant Lightning Reflexes, or even Epic Reflexes.  What do you think?


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2009)

We could drop Imp Sunder or Ability Focus as well and go with both Lightning and Epic Reflexes.  Its Ref save could use some help.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 11, 2009)

I'd rather drop Imp. Bull's Rush and Awesome Blow than Imp. Sunder and Ability Focus.


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2009)

What is the benefit of Ability Focus (dark jolt)?  The only save is to remove the negative level later, and that hardly seems worth the cost of a feat.


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## freyar (Dec 11, 2009)

True enough.  Let's compromise and drop Imp Bull Rush and Ability Focus for the two Ref save boosters.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 11, 2009)

Good thinking.


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2009)

If we drop Imp. Bull Rush, we lose Awesome Blow as well.   So, add an additional feat to replace it, or jettison something other than IBR?


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## freyar (Dec 14, 2009)

Arrgh, forgot the prereq there.  Well, anyway, I think the feat list it has now looks fine.  Let's stick with that.


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2009)

CR 15?

Shall we work on the lesser versions?


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## freyar (Dec 14, 2009)

Sure!


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 15, 2009)

I'm not the world's biggest fan of Awesome Blow, but I can let it go. Let's work on the lessers.

I'm also not getting a very undead vibe from these, physical description wise.


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I'm also not getting a very undead vibe from these, physical description wise.




Suggestions to "deadify" 'em?

10 HD for the lessers?   No create spawn?   Drop the SLAs (and black lightning, since it would no longer serve a purpose)?


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2009)

That all sounds reasonable for the lessers, though I think black lightning still has some purpose of bypassing electricity resistance.


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2009)

Would it, if they lack any SLAs?


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2009)

Ack, yes, you're right, I thought for some reason you were referring to the spawn ability.   I must be tired, yeah, that's it!


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2009)

Updated.

For the lessers, reduce shock to 1d6 damage and dark jolt to 3d6?

We need to drop 2 more feats (I already dropped Awesome Blow and Epic Reflexes, since it won't meet the prereqs):  Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack

Reduce damage reduction to 10/magic?


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2009)

Yes to reducing damage and DR.  Let's drop Imp Bull Rush and either Cleave or Combat Reflexes.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2009)

How 'bout dropping Cleave?


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2009)

Sure thing.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2009)

Updated.

I think all that's left is to determine CR for the lesser, make the description more "undeadish", and come up with some origin story for 'em.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2009)

CR 9-10 on the lessers? They're not overwhelming offensively, but their AC is pretty darn good.


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2009)

Sounds good to me.

Origin?  Huh, maybe they drowned in freak flash floods?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 17, 2009)

I dunno how many storm giants would die in flash floods.


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2009)

Oh, crud, they have water breathing!  I should really look this stuff up.    Well, I figured they wouldn't be created by electrocution.   Any other ideas?


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2009)

Hmm...



> Storm giants are gentle and reclusive. They are usually tolerant of others but can be very dangerous when angry.






> They live quiet, reflective lives and spend their time musing about the world, composing and playing music, and tilling their land or gathering food.






> Storm giants live in castles built on mountain peaks or underwater. They live off the land in the immediate vicinity of their lairs. If the natural harvest is not enough to sustain them, they create and carefully till large gardens, fields, and vineyards. They do not keep animals for food, preferring to hunt.




I suppose they could arise from starvation brought on by the destruction of their nearby environment.  Maybe temperaments are the unliving embodiments of eco-terrorism?


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2009)

Perfect!


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2009)

Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2009)

All done?


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2009)

Methinks so.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2009)

I like that origin, and I think we're good to go.


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