# "Rules: Saiyans" by Anubis



## Anubis (Sep 17, 2002)

Okay, I've been working on a conversion for Saiyans, and I am posting my work here. I have put A LOT of my personal time into this, and hope you all find my work to be useful and enjoyable. Included herein are the rules for everythign related to Saiyans.  I would like to note that Saiyans were originally created by Akira Toriyama, and I'm simply converting them into this great game.

Some of the feats mentioned herein are of my own design, and can be found here:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24624

Saiyans are usable in nearly any campaign, as they are balanced very well for all but the "weakest" of campaigns.

That said, Saiyans are EXTREMELY powerful, but as I said before, they are reasonably balanced. If you play in a low-magic or lower-power campaign, however, be EXTREMELY cautious when considering the use of Saiyans.

Here it is, "Rules: Saiyans"! This post will be updated as necessary with additions, corrections, errata, etc. ENJOY!



*SAIYAN*

Medium-Size/Colossal Shapechanger
Hit Dice: 10d8+40+50 (135 hp); 10d8+140+50 (270 hp)
Initiative: +4; +2 (Dex)
Speed: 30 ft.; 20 ft.
AC: 17 (+2 bonus, +5 Saiyan battle armor); 31 (-2 Dex, -8 size, +2 bonus, +5 Saiyan battle armor, +24 natural)
Attacks: Unarmed strike +15/+12/+9; 2 slams +27 melee, bite +22 melee
Damage: Unarmed strike 1d10+8; slam 4d8+28, bite 8d6+14
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./5 ft.; 40 ft. by 40 ft./25 ft.
Special Attacks: Oozaru form, monk abilities
Special Qualities: Tail weakness, power adaptation, monk abilities
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +7, Will +7; Fort +23, Ref +5, Will +5
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 11, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8; Str 67, Dex 7, Con 39, Int 6, Wis 6, Cha 4
Skills: Balance +6, Bluff +0, Jump +14, Knowledge (fighting) +9, Tumble +10
Feats: Saiyan's Toughness, Improved Initiative, Great Fortitude

Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary, pair, unit (2-5), company (5-20), or legion (101-200)
Challenge Rating: 10
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually neutral evil
Advancement: By character class

Saiyans are a powerful mercenary shapechanging race composed almost entirely of warriors. They sell their services to the highest bidder, and frequently take over entire planets in order to sell salvaged goods, people captured to be used as slaves, and even the planets themselves to whoever is willing to meet their price. This warlike race is unmatched in power and brutality.

Saiyans are powerfully built, with wild hair and dark eyes. For the most part, however, they look frighteningly human, and are unable to be distinguished from humans by the untrained eye.

What makes the Saiyan race even more frightening, however, is their ability to transform into colossal apes in the light of a full moon. When in their Oozaru form, they destroy everything and kill everyone in their paths, leaving a wake of death and destruction.

COMBAT

Saiyans have a natural gift for fighting, able to fight unarmed just as a monk, and also able to defend himself or herself as a monk could as well. Saiyans live to fight. Saiyans rarely do anything other than fight directly in combat, not caring for the use of tactics when power will usually suffice. A Saiyan is rendered powerless, however, by grabbing its tail.

In Oozaru form, Saiyans merely smash and eat everything in sight, using its devastating breath weapon on those out of reach. These terrible monsters are ten times as powerful as a normal Saiyan, and are nearly impossible to defeat in physical combat. Only by removing the light of the moon or cutting off the Saiyan's tail can the Oozaru be forced back into its normal Saiyan form.

Oozaru Form (Su): In the light of a full moon, Saiyans revert to a primordial state in the form of a colossal ape. In this form, the Saiyan is in a constant state of rage, and will destroy anything and everything around it. A Saiyan must have his or her tail to transform. When the light of the full moon is gone, the Oozaru will change back into its normal Saiyan form. Removing the tail of the Oozaru also causes the Saiyan to change back to his or her normal form. A Saiyan in Oozaru form receives maximum hit points per hit die upon transforming.

Breath Weapon (Su): While in Oozaru form, a Saiyan is sometimes attacked from afar and unable to pummel or eat the attacker. Sometimes a Saiyan in Oozaru form is simply in a really bad mood. In these instances, the Oozaru breath weapon is invaluable. Line of energy, 400 feet; damage 1d10 per HD/level, Reflex half DC 29.

Monk Abilities (Ex): Saiyans attack as monks, using the monk's favorable number of attacks per round, as well as dealing damage as a monk of a level equal to the sum of the Saiyan's hit HD and levels. Saiyans also gain the benefits of the Improved Unarmed Strike Feat, as well as access to the monk's Flurry of Blows and Stunning Attack. In addition to monk attack forms, Saiyans gain a bonus to their AC as monks of a level equal to the sum of the Saiyan's HD and levels, including a Wisdom bonus to AC whenever applicable.

Tail Weakness: By grabbing the tail of a Saiyan, you can stun him or her. This condition lasts as long as the tail is tightly held. This is ineefective against a Saiyan in Oozaru form. If a Saiyan's tail is removed while he or she is in Oozaru form, he or she immediately changes back to his or her normal form. Whenever a Saiyan's tail is removed, he or she must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 30) or be stunned for a number of rounds equal to the amount the save was missed by, double that number if a natural "1" is rolled. The tail has a 1 in 6 chance of growing back in 1d12 months two weeks before the next full moon. Without his or her tail, a Saiyan's loses 8 Strength and 4 Constitution, and is unable to transform into an Oozaru.

Power Adaptation (Ex): Saiyans are very hard to kill, and only gain more power if they survive an otherwise fatal attack. When a Saiyan is reduced below 0 hit points, once he or she recovers, he or she gains 100 experience points for each point below 0 he or she went, and receives a permanent cumulative +1 bonus to Strength and Constitution; if the added experience points give him or her enough to gain a level, he or she gains that level immediately. For example, if a Saiyan is reduced to -10 hit points and then healed with a Heal spell, the Saiyan immediately gains 1,000 experience points. If the Saiyan had 54,500 experience points before, he now has 55,300 experience points and gains a level. *A Saiyan can only be killed by reducing it to a negative number of hit points equal to it's Constitution score plus its total Effective Character Level. In other words, if a Saiyan has four character levels and a Constitution score of 16, he or she must be reduced to -30 hit points to be killed, not counting the effects of Saiyan's Toughness.  A normal Saiyan must be reduced to -49 hit points to be killed, factoring in Saiyan's Toughness

*In the Chaotic Worlds campaign, all characters follow this rule. In the Chaotic Worlds campaign, Saiyans are harder to kill due to the Saiyan's Toughness feat.

SAIYAN SOCIETY

Saiyans are an extremly militant race. Saiyans live for war, fighting, and power. Only the strongest survive, and the strong will rule over the weak. Saiyans are loyal to the most powerful of their kind.

Saiyans are well organized in fighting armies, all with extreme amounts of power. Saiyans' teamwork is second to none, but if one shows weakness, his or her comrades will show no remorse in disposing of the weakling. This race strived to increase their power in the universe, and will routinely take over planets, strip a planet of its natural resources, kill all opposing males, take opposing females as slaves for harems, and sell opposing children into slavery. Most Saiyans are pure evil. although because of their warlike nature, many die before fulfilling their true potential.

Saiyans usually live approximately as long as humans do.

SAIYAN CHARACTERS

A Saiyan's favored classes are fighter and martial artist (a monk variation), and Saiyan leaders tend to be fighter/martial artists and fighter/monks. Saiyan clerics are few and far between and worship "The Legendary Super Saiyan", and can choose two of the following domains: Destruction, Strength, and War. The Effective Character Level of a normal Saiyan is +10.

*SAIYAN WARRIOR CLASS*

Most Saiyans are Saiyan Warriors.  These are their powers.
Hit Die: d8

Requirements
To qualify to become a Saiyan Warrior, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
Race: Saiyan or half-Saiyan
Knowledge (fighting): 9 ranks

Class Skills
The Saiyan Warrior's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (fighting) (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), and Tumble (Dex).  See Chapter 4: Skills in the Player's Handbook for skill descriptions.

Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier



```
The Saiyan Warrior

Class       Base       Fort    Ref   Will
Level   Attack Bonus   Save   Save   Save   Special
1st          +0         +2     +2     +2    Damage reduction 5/+1
2nd          +1         +3     +3     +3 
3rd          +2         +3     +3     +3    Evasion
4th          +3         +4     +4     +4 
5th          +3         +4     +4     +4 
6th          +4         +5     +5     +5    Fortified Body
7th          +5         +5     +5     +5 
8th          +6         +6     +6     +6 
9th          +6         +6     +6     +6    Fortified Blood
10th         +7         +7     +7     +7    Damage reduction 10/+2
11th         +8         +7     +7     +7 
12th         +9         +8     +8     +8    Wholeness of Body
13th         +9         +8     +8     +8 
14th        +10         +9     +9     +9 
15th        +11         +9     +9     +9    Fortified Soul
16th        +12        +10    +10    +10 
17th        +12        +10    +10    +10 
18th        +13        +11    +11    +11    Improved Evasion
19th        +14        +11    +11    +11 
20th        +15        +12    +12    +12    Damage reduction 15/+3
```

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Saiyans are born warriors, and have no need for weapons or armor of any kind.  The only armor a Saiyan will ever wear is Saiyan battle armor.  Saiyan battle armor is the same as Mithral Breastplate.

Fortified Body: At 3rd level, a Saiyan Warrior gains control over his body's immune systems.  He gains immunity to all diseases except fpr magical diseases such as mummy rot and lycanthropy.

Fortified Blood: At 6th level, a Saiyan Warrior is in such control of his own metabolism that he gains immunity to poison of all kinds.

Fortified Soul: At 9th level, a Saiyan Warrior gains spell resistance.  His spell resistance equals his level + 10.  In order to affect the Saiyan Warrior with a spell, a spellcaster must roll the Saiyan Warrior's spell resistance or higher on 1d20 + the spellcaster's level.

Wholeness of Body: At 12th level, a Saiyan Warrior can cure his own wounds.  He can cure up to twice his current total ECL in hit points each day, and he can spread this healing out among several uses.  Wholeness of Body is a supernatural ability.

Evasion: At 15th level, a Saiyan Warrior gains evasion.  If exposed to any effect that normally allows a character to attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage (such as a fireball), he takes no damage with a successful saving throw.  Evasion can only be used if the rogue is wearing light armor, no armor, or Saiyan battle armor.  It is an extraordinary ability.

Improved Evasion: At 18th level, a Saiyan Warrior's evasion ability improves.  He still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks such as a dragon's breath weapon or a fireball, but henceforth he only takes half damage on a failed save.

*SAIYAN ELITE EPIC PRESTIGE CLASS*

The few . . . The proud . . . The Saiyan Elite . . . These are the most powerful warriors of the Saiyans.
Hit Die: d10

Requirements
To qualify to become a Saiyan Elite, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
Race: Saiyan or half-Saiyan
Base Attack Bonus: +20
Knowledge (fighting): 30 ranks
Knowledge (ki): 15 ranks
Feats: Conceal Ki, Control Oozaru Form, Energy Manipulation, Tail Weakness Immunity, Penetrate Damage Reduction

Class Skills
The Saiyan Warrior's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (fighting) (Int), Knowledge (ki) (Int), Listen (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Tumble (Dex).  See Chapter 4: Skills in the Player's Handbook for skill descriptions.

Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier



```
The Saiyan Elite

Saiyan
Elite
Level    Special
1st      Damage Reduction 20/+4, SR 30
2nd      Superior Initiative*
3rd      Abundant Step
4th      Bonus Feat
5th      Natural Armor +1
6th      Epic Endurance*
7th      Ki Focus*
8th      Bonus Feat
9th      Smite 1/day
10th     Damage Reduction 25/+5, SR 40, Natural Armor +2
11th     Epic Saiyan's Toughness*
12th     Bonus Feat
13th     Mettle
14th     Greater Ki Focus*
15th     Natural Armor +3
16th     Bonus Feat
17th     Epic Dodge*
18th     Smite 2/day
19th     Great Smiting*
20th     Damage Reduction 30/+6, SR 50, Bonus Feat, Natural Armor +4
```

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Saiyans are born warriors, and have no need for weapons or armor of any kind.  The only armor a Saiyan will ever wear is Saiyan battle armor.  Saiyan battle armor is the same as Mithral Breastplate.

*These are all bonus feats that a Saiyan Elite acquires automatically, regardless of whether or not he meets the prerequisites for the feat.

Abundant Step: At 3rd level, a Saiyan Elite can slip magically between spaces, as per the spell dimension door, at will.  This is a spell-like ability that effects only the Saiyan Elite himself, and the Saiyan Elite's effective casting level is one-half his actual level (rounded down).

Bonus Feats: A Saiyan Elite gets a bonus feat at 4th level and an additional bonus feat every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, 16th, and so on).  These bonus feats must be chosen from the following list: Armor Skin, Damage Reduction Break, Detect Ki, Empower Ki, Energy Ball, Energy Explosion, Enhance Ki, Epic Energy Ball, Epic Energy Explosion, Epic Energy Manipulation, Epic Ki Blast, Epic Reflexes, Great Constitution, Great Dexterity, Great Strength, Improved Energy Ball, Improved Energy Explosion, Improved Ki Blast, Improved Ki Strike, Ki Blast.

Smite: Once per day, a Saiyan Elite of 9th level of higher may make a single melee attack an attack bonus equal to his Saiyan Elite level and a damage bonus equal to his total effective character level (if he hits).  The Saiyan Elite must declare the smite before making the attack.  At 18th level, the Saiyan Elite can smite twice per day.  This form of smite is an extraordinary ability that does not stack with any other smite ability.

Mettle: A Saiyan Elite's powerful body and force of will allows him to shrug off most attacks that would otherwise harm him.  If subjected to an attack that allows a Will or Fortitude save for half damage, the Saiyan Elite takes no damage on a successful save.



*SUPER SAIYAN*

The legendary Super Saiyans are beings with power the likes of which most mortals will never witness.  When a Saiyan is pushed beyond the normal limits of power, he becomes a Super Saiyan.

*CREATING A SUPER SAIYAN*

"Super Saiyan" is a template that can be added to any creature with any amount of Saiyan blood.  Half-Saiyans born after a Saiyan parent has gone Super Saiyan can themselves go Super Saiyan quite easily, although all Half-Saiyans can go Super Saiyan more easily than full Saiyans.  Those with less than half Saiyan blood get increasingly diminished returns from going Super Saiyan.  There are four known "levels" of Super Saiyan, although more may exist (DM's discretion).  Note: Whenever a Super Saiyan loses consciousness, he automatically reverts back to his original form.  In addition, if he takes enough damage in a single hit to reduce his hit points by 50% of his maximum, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or revert back to his normal form.  Initial Super Saiyan transformations require an entire minute.

When a Saiyan goes Super Saiyan, his hair turns gold and spikes up in a thick manner.  In addition, his eye color changes to a deep glossy sky blue and he becomes surrounded by a golden aura.  The power of a Super Saiyan is so great that it can not be concealed, hidden, or disguised in any way.  A Super Saiyan takes 1d6 points of subdual damage per round he remains as a Super Saiyan.  Any Super Saiyan transformation after the first is a move-equivalent action.

When a Saiyan goes Super Saiyan 2, his hair spikes up even more although it becomes a bit thinner than before.  In addition, a Super Saiyan 2 is surrounded by a harmless field of electricity.  Except as noted, a Super Saiyan 2 looks exactly like a Super Saiyan.  A Super Saiyan 2 takes 4d6 points of subdual damage per round he remains as a Super Saiyan 2.  Any Super Saiyan 2 transformation after the first is a full-round action.

When a Saiyan goes Super Saiyan 3, his hair grows out thick and to a length equal to half the Saiyan's height.  In addition, his eyes glow and his eyebrows disappear, giving the Super Saiyan 3 a barbaric or villainous look.  Except as noted, a Super Saiyan 3 looks exactly like a Super Saiyan 2.  A Super Saiyan 3 takes 9d6 points of subdual damage per round because of the immense amount of power and stress involved in remaining in the form.  Any Super Saiyan 3 transformation after the first requires three rounds.

For a full Saiyan to become a Super Saiyan, his heart must be pure (DM's discretion) and he must then go through a traumatic, horrific, or utterly frustrating experience (In Dragonball Z, Goku went Super Saiyan in response to the death of his best friend, Krillin.  Vegeta went Super Saiyan out of pure frustration that two other Super Saiyans existed while he, the Saiyan Prince, had not yet attained such power.); in addition, he must have at least 20 class levels.  For a full Saiyan to reach Super Saiyan 2, he must have already attained the ability to transform into a Super Saiyan and have at least 50 class levels.  For a full Saiyan to transform into a Super Saiyan 3, he must have already attained the ability to transform into a Super Saiyan 2 and have at least 100 class levels.

For a Half-Saiyan (born BEFORE his Saiyan parent became a Super Saiyan) to become a Super Saiyan, he must have at least 16 class levels.  For a Half-Saiyan (born BEFORE his Saiyan parent became a Super Saiyan) to become a Super Saiyan 2, his heart must be pure (DM's discretion) and he must then go through a traumatic, horrific, or utterly frustrating experience (In Dragonball Z, Gohan, who felt unending pain and frustration due to his continuous cowardice and inability to save his friends from dying at the hands of evil, finally snapped when Cell killed Android 16, who had assured him that there was no shame in using all of his power to help those he cared about.); in addition, he must have at least 40 class levels.  For a Half-Saiyan (born BEFORE his Saiyan parent became a Super Saiyan) to transform into a Super Saiyan 3, he must have already attained the ability to transform into a Super Saiyan and have at least 80 class levels.

For a Half-Saiyan (born AFTER his Saiyan parent became a Super Saiyan) to become a Super Saiyan, he must have at least 12 class levels, and must have seen a Saiyan transform into a Super Saiyan at least once.  For a Half-Saiyan (born AFTER his Saiyan parent became a Super Saiyan) to become a Super Saiyan 2, his heart must be pure (DM's discretion) and he must then go through a traumatic, horrific, or utterly frustrating experience (In Dragonball Z, Trunks and Goten, the only Half-Saiyans born after their Saiyan parents had become Super Saiyans, never reached the level of Super Saiyan 2; as such, this is an educated guess based on the requirements for Gohan to go Super Saiyan 2.); in addition, he must have at least 30 class levels.  For a Half-Saiyan (born AFTER his Saiyan parent became a Super Saiyan) to transform into a Super Saiyan 3, he must have already attained the ability to transform into a Super Saiyan and have at least 60 class levels, and must have seen a Saiyan transform into a Super Saiyan 3 at least once.

Although they are not divine or immortal, Saiyans who have attained Super Saiyan powers are considered deities for purposes of determining whether or not certain Salient Divine Abilities can work on them.

HD: A Super Saiyan always has maximum hit points.
Speed: Super Saiyan x2, Super Saiyan 2 x4, Super Saiyan 3 x8
*AC: All Super Saiyans have a deflection bonus to their AC equal to their Dexterity bonus (if any).  In addition, a Super Saiyan gains a +20 natural armor bonus, a Super Saiyan 2 gains a +40 natural armor bonus, and a Super Saiyan 3 gains a +80 natural armor bonus.  Note: Super Saiyans with less than half Saiyan blood receive only a +5 natural armor bonus.
Attacks: Super Saiyans may make an unlimited number of attacks as determined by his base attack bonus.  Super Saiyans do not automatically fail on a natural attack roll of 1.
**Special Qualities: Super Saiyan: damage reduction 100/+10, SR +20; Super Saiyan 2: damage reduction 200/+20, SR +40; Super Saiyan 3: damage reduction 400/+30, SR +80
*Saves: A Super Saiyan gains a +20 resistance bonus to all saving throws, a Super Saiyan 2 gains a +40 resistance bonus to all saving throws, and a Super Saiyan 3 gains a +80 resistance bonus to all saving throws.  Note: Super Saiyans with less than half Saiyan blood receive only a +5 resistance bonus to all saving throws.
*Abilities: Super Saiyan: Str +20, Dex +20, Con +20, Int +10, Wis +10, Cha +10; Super Saiyan 2: Str +40, Dex +40, Con +40, Int +20, Wis +20, Cha +20; Super Saiyan 3: Str +80, Dex +80, Con +80, Int +40, Wis +40, Cha +40.  Note: Super Saiyans with less than half Saiyan blood receive only Str +5, Dex +5, Con +5, Int +1, Wis +2, Cha +2.
Challenge Rating: Super Saiyan: ECL +20, Super Saiyan 2: ECL +40, Super Saiyan 3: ECL +80 (Half-Saiyans: Super Saiyan: ECL +10, Super Saiyan 2: ECL +20, Super Saiyan 3: ECL +40)  Note: Super Saiyans with less than half Saiyan blood are ECL +5.

* Half-Saiyans receive only half of these bonuses for the various levels of Super Saiyan.
** Those with less than half Saiyan blood receive limited Super Saiyan power, and thus do not get these Super Saiyan qualities.  Furthermore, those with less than half Saiyan blood can never achieve any level beyond that of Super Saiyan.


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## Witness (Sep 17, 2002)

I think your saiyan race is WAY too powerful. Just curious, but what would be their ECL?  Probably too high to make them useful as player characters.  The basic problem that I see is that you are creating a race that accounts for all the cool powers and abilities possesed by characters of the Saiyan race.  All the powers and abilities possesed by Gohu, and Vegita were due to the fact that they were powerful WARRIORS not just that they were Saiyans(all though that had alot to due with it.)  For this reason I don't think you should give them Monk class abilities.


You should use Raditz, (Goku's brother, and the first and weakest Saiyan encountered) or a very young Goku as a basis for a Saiyan race.  Vegita, Nappa, and adult Goku are just too powerful to use as a basis for a balanced race.  Goku as a child is far stronger and faster than the average human.  This translates into at least a +4 bonus to Strength and Dex and a bonus to base speed.  Additionally, his Ki was stronger than average.  Thats a bonus to Wisdom (or whatever one would use to simulate Ki in D20) but not a bonus to Wisdom skills as he wasn't necessarily more perceptive.  He was also tougher, so he gets a natural AC bonus, a bonus to CON, and two or three extra hit dice.  None of the Saiyans were particularly smart, so they get at least a -2 to Int.

Your rules for Oozaru seem pretty good, but I would change it so its more similar to changing shape using lycanthrope (ie involuntary changes, and a skill that allows one to take some control over the change).

As for the rules for Saiyans becoming more powerful after a brush with death, I would leave it out or change the power so the bonuses granted are only temporary.  The way the rules are now, it is too easy for a player to do just what Vejita tried to do, bring themeselves do the brink of death, and have themselves healed so they are stronger and more powerful.  Sure this doesn't fit with the way Saiyans are presented by Toriyama, but in DBZ, they are by far the most powerful race and most powerful characters in the whole series.  Even without this ability they literally tower over all other races.

Bottom line, if what you were aiming for is a race of supermen, any one of which is capable of wiping out life on a whole planet, your Saiyan race as written is fine.  If however, you want a somewhat over balanced race thats not campaign breaking and your not too afraid to let your players use, see above.


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## Buddha the DM (Sep 17, 2002)

*Anubis:* You rule!


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## Anubis (Sep 17, 2002)

Witness said:
			
		

> *
> I think your saiyan race is WAY too powerful. Just curious, but what would be their ECL?
> *




If you had read the entire thing, you would know that Saiyans are ECL +15.



			
				Witness said:
			
		

> *
> The basic problem that I see is that you are creating a race that accounts for all the cool powers and abilities possesed by characters of the Saiyan race.  All the powers and abilities possesed by Gohu, and Vegita were due to the fact that they were powerful WARRIORS not just that they were Saiyans(all though that had alot to due with it.)  For this reason I don't think you should give them Monk class abilities.
> *




Actually, I didn't give all of their "cool" powers to the race.  Notice that the Saiyan *race* ONLY gets Oozaru form, monk abilities, tail weakness, and power adaptaion.  This follows the Dragonball premise that Saiyans are, in fact, natural-born warriors.

The reason I chose the monk offensive and defensive abilities is because Saiyans obviously have more natural offensive and defensive capability than all other races, and so I gave them abilities of the class that gives more natural offensive and defensive capability.

Considering they're ECL +15, I believe it is perfectly balanced.  A Saiyan with only 1 class level is Level 16 by default!



			
				Witness said:
			
		

> *
> You should use Raditz, (Goku's brother, and the first and weakest Saiyan encountered) or a very young Goku as a basis for a Saiyan race.
> *




Young Goku maybe, but not Raditz.  Raditz was a Saiyan Elite.  Therefore, I based the Saiyan Elite Epic Prestige Class on Raditz.  The power is appropriate, because remember, Raditz was seven times more powerful than the most powerful human at that time.



			
				Witness said:
			
		

> *
> Goku as a child is far stronger and faster than the average human.  This translates into at least a +4 bonus to Strength and Dex and a bonus to base speed.
> *




I disagree.  Remember, Goku was born a bit weaker than other Saiyans.  Normal Saiyans translate to Strength +16 and Constitution +8, and this goes down if the Saiyan loses his tail.



			
				Witness said:
			
		

> *
> Additionally, his Ki was stronger than average.  Thats a bonus to Wisdom
> *




NO NO NO!  No one, even in Dragonball, is "born" with any amount of ki!  Ki is learned, not innate!  (That's why Goku learned his FIRST energy attack from Roshi, that being the Kamehameha Wave!)  Also, Wisdom is a VERY bad stat to use from ki, and furthermore, Ki should not be a numerical value, nor is it.  Ki is a person's life force, and therefore, the closest thing to a numeric ki value is, in fact, hit points.  For ki, go to the link to "The Big Big Book of Feats".

The Saiyan can't possibly be evaluated until you have read the feats and taken the system as a whole.  You can't import just one section, because that would be ineffective.  To use this, you must also consider the feats!



			
				Witness said:
			
		

> *
> He was also tougher, so he gets a natural AC bonus, a bonus to CON, and two or three extra hit dice.
> *




Tougher is accounted for not by a natural armor bonus to AC, but by the 8 HD, Constitution bonus, and monk ability AC bonus.



			
				Witness said:
			
		

> *
> None of the Saiyans were particularly smart, so they get at least a -2 to Int.
> *




Actually, I foundthem to be the same as humans in terms of intelligence.  They weren't smart, but neither were they stupid.  They were literate, meaning no penalty to Intelligence.



			
				Witness said:
			
		

> *
> Your rules for Oozaru seem pretty good, but I would change it so its more similar to changing shape using lycanthrope (ie involuntary changes, and a skill that allows one to take some control over the change).
> *




I disagree.  No Saiyan was able to control his Oozaru form until the middle of Dragonball GT when Goku first did it, and even then, it was the Golden Oozaru form, not the regular Oozaru form.  It is not quite the same as lycanthropes.  I did, however, base the Oozaru form on a lycanthrope template, so you weren't far off.  You didn't see that?



			
				Witness said:
			
		

> *
> As for the rules for Saiyans becoming more powerful after a brush with death, I would leave it out or change the power so the bonuses granted are only temporary.  The way the rules are now, it is too easy for a player to do just what Vejita tried to do, bring themeselves do the brink of death, and have themselves healed so they are stronger and more powerful.  Sure this doesn't fit with the way Saiyans are presented by Toriyama, but in DBZ, they are by far the most powerful race and most powerful characters in the whole series.  Even without this ability they literally tower over all other races.
> *




As a race, they are supposed to tower over most other races.  That's why they're ECL +15.

Basically, you overlooked the fact that most of the Saiyan power comes not from the race but from the two classes they can take.  Once a Level 20 Saiyan Elite, however, we're talking about a MINIMUM of a Level 46 character, which is more powerful than most deities.  With a Level 20 Saiyan Warrior, you're still already Level 35, so this balances out perfectly.

This does fit into any campaign, but you must remember that the power level needs to match.  Saiyans are nearly Epic from the beginning, so use them with caution and as nearly Epic characters, because that's what they are.  Ecl +15.  Remember that.

If you thought this was powerful, wait until you see the Super Saiyan rules!


----------



## Witness (Sep 17, 2002)

Hae you written up any other classes or races based on DBZ? I would really like to see a Namekian race.


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## Anubis (Sep 17, 2002)

Witness said:
			
		

> *Hae you written up any other classes or races based on DBZ? I would really like to see a Namekian race. *




At this point, there are no plans for bringing in anything except for Saiyans.  My next project I am working on is Tyranids.

Namekians may be useful, however, since hte Dragonballs ARE in my campaign.  Who knows?


----------



## DeBhaal (Sep 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anubis_
> *I disagree. No Saiyan was able to control his Oozaru form until the middle of Dragonball GT when Goku first did it, and even then, it was the Golden Oozaru form, not the regular Oozaru form. It is not quite the same as lycanthropes. I did, however, base the Oozaru form on a lycanthrope template, so you weren't far off. You didn't see that?*




I disagree, you must not have watched the the episodes when Goku was fighting Vegita on earth, Vegita transformed into an Oorzau and could control himself.


----------



## Anubis (Sep 18, 2002)

DeBhaal said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I disagree, you must not have watched the the episodes when Goku was fighting Vegita on earth, Vegita transformed into an Oorzau and could control himself. *




Watch it agian.  Yes, he could talk and think, but he was not "in control" per se.  To be honest, I would liken it more to a Barbarian's Rage ability than Lycanthropy.  Maybe a combination of both.


----------



## reiella (Sep 18, 2002)

IIRC, Raditz himself wasn't an Saiyan Elite, just a Saiyan.

Nappa and Vegeta were the first Saiyan Elite encountered (the notable trait of not having the Tail Weakness).

And I believe it fits, as even the Young Goku exhibited greater strength than even the majority of 'physically strong' fighters (although this may have been more so due to his 'learning from fights' aspect).

Quite possibly, Vegita and others are able to 'control' their oozaru rage/form more so through training (ie, ranks in Control Shape or whatever that Lycanthrope feat is), whereas Goku and the others shunned their Oozaru form and never really exploited it.  The Golden Oozaru form is a bit more odd, since to achieve that (And the more common 'Super Saiyan' status) you need to focus on your rage, also why Goku isn't able to 'control'/attack with the spirit bomb with the Androids movie while Super (but instead draws it into himself).

[ Add ]

Err hit send to soon .

In all it's pretty good and I like it, just some comments .


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## Anabstercorian (Sep 19, 2002)

Can you take Quicken Spell-Like Ability and apply it to the Dimension Door ability from the Saiyan Elite class?


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## Anubis (Sep 19, 2002)

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Can you take Quicken Spell-Like Ability and apply it to the Dimension Door ability from the Saiyan Elite class? *




I would have to say yes to that.  It is a spell-like ability, and Quicken Spell-Like Ability is a feat, so yes.

Powerful stuff indeed, but that's Dragonball for ya'!


----------



## Silverthrone (Sep 19, 2002)

Any saiyan elite, the royal saiyans, are able to control their oozaru forms. Vegeta explains this pretty well by his own words. It is the lower class saiyans, like Goku and Raditz that do not control their oozaru forms.

Also, you rate the avergae saiyan as having a strength of 27. That is way low. Even as a child, Goku could lift far more than that.

Consider a strength of 27 is a max lift 1,040 pounds.

Goku as a child could easily throw a tank. Consider the Red Ribbon tanks to be equivalent to a panzer, which weighed in at about 75 tons. Now consider that to throw it, it would have to be a medium load to Goku. The tank would weigh 150,000 pounds. That is a strength score of about 69 as a child, power level approximately 175.

Scale that to Raditz, power level about 2,000, meaning Raditz was about 12 times stronger than Goku, meaning he could throw about 1,800,000 pounds. That is a strength score of about 85.

Saiyans are amazingly strong creatures, eventually surpassing planet destroying levels, especially considering the mere shockwaves caused by super saiyan Goku's punches crumbled mountains.

Also, in Dragonball, improving one's ki can be learned, but one can be born with higher ki without any training at all.


----------



## Silverthrone (Sep 19, 2002)

I wrote a good bit of material for the DBZ RPG for R. Talsorian, but not much of it got published. If You would like any help on a DBZ D20 conversion, let me know.


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## Anubis (Sep 19, 2002)

Silverthrone said:
			
		

> *Any saiyan elite, the royal saiyans, are able to control their oozaru forms. Vegeta explains this pretty well by his own words. It is the lower class saiyans, like Goku and Raditz that do not control their oozaru forms.
> 
> Also, you rate the avergae saiyan as having a strength of 27. That is way low. Even as a child, Goku could lift far more than that.
> 
> ...




For the Oozaru forms, the thing that sets them apart from Lycanthropes is that Lycanthropes can learn to control the transformation itself, which Saiyans can never do.  I will probably make a feat or something that allows the control of the form, but it will still function similar to Rage.

The problem is that Dragonball is vague in some places.  In early Dragonball, Goku was less powerful than Roshi, and equal with Krillin, at least in terms of skill.

Honestly, if I gave Saiyans that much Strength, they would be ECL +20 or more, which I feel is unnecessary.

I took the spirit of the Dragonball Saiyans but did have to lower the power somewhat to make it balance with a normal campaign.


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## Silverthrone (Sep 19, 2002)

*I took the spirit of the Dragonball Saiyans but did have to lower the power somewhat to make it balance with a normal campaign.*

My apologies, I thought you were going for a direct port of saiyans from the series.


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## Anubis (Sep 19, 2002)

Silverthrone said:
			
		

> *I wrote a good bit of material for the DBZ RPG for R. Talsorian, but not much of it got published. If You would like any help on a DBZ D20 conversion, let me know. *




Well, what I'm looking for isn't a general d20 conversion, but rather a specific conversion that allows Saiyans to fit in a normal campaign with all other classes.

If you think the material could still help, feel free to share it, although I must say that this won't be official published material in any way, but rather just posted here at EN World for people to use however they like, meaning there is no money involved.

If you're interested, go ahead and share it, and we'll see how it fits with what I already have.  What's posted already, with the exception of possible errata, is already "set in stone" so to speak.  All I need now is rules for Super Saiyan forms.


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## Anubis (Sep 19, 2002)

Silverthrone said:
			
		

> *
> My apologies, I thought you were going for a direct port of saiyans from the series.
> *




Ah, I see.  It's okay.  Heh, no, a direct port would never balanced within the normal game.  I'm just looking for something a bit more simple.  Thanks anyway, and thanks for showing interest!


----------



## Anabstercorian (Sep 20, 2002)

Easy.  Go with this - Saiyans aren't born with much more Ki than anyone else (though they tend towards it, thanks to their Saiyen's Toughness feat) but they are born with the ability to use it.  Goku could heave tanks around because he could use his Ki like Psychofeedback to enhance his strength checks, allowing him to lift enormous objects, but not to break human bodies - They require completely different kinds of strength, and he didn't have the training to boost fast movements to that level.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Sep 20, 2002)

Easy.  Go with this - Saiyans aren't born with much more Ki than anyone else (though they tend towards it, thanks to their Saiyen's Toughness feat) but they are born with the ability to use it.  Goku could heave tanks around because he could use his Ki like Psychofeedback to enhance his strength checks, allowing him to lift enormous objects, but not to break human bodies - They require completely different kinds of strength, and he didn't have the training to boost fast movements to that level.


----------



## Silverthrone (Sep 20, 2002)

The material I did was mostly a try for a direct port, so it may not be of much use.

I am pretty familiar with DBZ history and knowledge of it's universe and chracters.

I have some information on saiyan culture and history if you would like it.


----------



## Anubis (Sep 20, 2002)

*Update - September 20, 2002:*

I have posted errata for everything I have released thus far, changing some things to make the Saiyan Warrior and Saiyan Elite a bit more balanced.  I also changed the requirements for becoming a Saiyan Elite, and made the Saiyan Elite a bit more different than the Saiyan Warrior.

My collection of feats will be updated shortly.


----------



## Glorfindel (Sep 22, 2002)

Oh Anubis could you do Vegeta`s stats?
It would be cool to see how he is =)
And well not from the beginning more like from the Majin Buu saga? =)

Silverthorne I own the R. Talsori game (sp?) And would very much like to see what you had sent in but didne`t get printed in the books =)
What to you think Mirai Trunks stats would be? =)


----------



## Glorfindel (Sep 22, 2002)

Anubis, what happoned with the Super Saiyan?


----------



## Anubis (Sep 22, 2002)

Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *Anubis, what happoned with the Super Saiyan? *




I'm still working on the conversion for Super Saiyan.  It has become the problem child, really, and easily the most complex part of the conversion.

Things wouldn't be as complex if the levels were stright:

Super Saiyan-Super Saiyan 2-Super Saiyan 3-Super Saiyan 4

The problem is that it goes something like this:

Oozaru
Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan 2nd Grade
Super Saiyan 3rd Grade
Super Saiyan Full Power
Legendary Super Saiyan (Brolly only)
Super Saiyan 2
Mystic Super Saiyan (Gohan only)
Super Saiyan 3
Golden Oozaru
Super Saiyan 4

This makes things complex.  The multiple levels of Super Saiyan (2ng Grade, 3rd Grade, Full Power, Legendary) are a huge problem and very difficult to deal with.  Mystic Super Saiyan is also a strange one.  I'm a highly considering leaving Legendary Super Saiyan and Mystic Super Saiyan out altogether, along with the multiple levels of Super Saiyan.

I haven't quite decided yet.  I may end up releasing the various Super Saiyan conversions one at a time.


----------



## Anubis (Sep 22, 2002)

Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> Oh Anubis could you do Vegeta`s stats?
> It would be cool to see how he is =)
> And well not from the beginning more like from the Majin Buu saga? =)
> *




Once I have finished the Super Saiyan conversion, I can probably do this pretty easily.


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## Thebalor (Sep 22, 2002)

Anubis said:
			
		

> *
> Oozaru
> Super Saiyan
> Super Saiyan 2nd Grade
> ...




I always thought that the legendary super saiyan was above them all, since  all of the Z fighters together were barely ever enough to defeat Brolly.


----------



## Anubis (Sep 23, 2002)

Thebalor said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I always thought that the legendary super saiyan was above them all, since  all of the Z fighters together were barely ever enough to defeat Brolly. *




That was the idea at the time.  Considering they were able to defeat Brolly, however, and they had only achieved Super Saiyan at the time (Super Saiyan 2 for the later movies, if I recall correctly), that leads me to believe that Legendary Super Saiyan is somewhere between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2.


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## Silverthrone (Sep 23, 2002)

Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *Oh Anubis could you do Vegeta`s stats?
> It would be cool to see how he is =)
> And well not from the beginning more like from the Majin Buu saga? =)
> 
> ...




I can get that together in a PDF for you. THanks for your interest. 

As for Mirai Trunks, if you want his stats, and the stats for Garlic Jr. the Spice Boys, Cyborg Freeza, King Cold, Cell, the androids, and the super saiyans and chracters of those sagas, including super saiyan 2 stats, I would suggest R. Talsorian's Dragonball Z Anime Adventure Game: Androids  sourcebook.

It is currently available, and I saw one at a store recently.


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## Anubis (Sep 23, 2002)

Or you can wait right here until I finish my conversions, and get something just as good (if not better) for free!  What's more, my conversions will be compatible with ANY normal campaign.  (Well, almost.  If you don't play a high-level or Epic campaign, you'll never play Saiyans, but hey, this is closer to the core game than anything else out there right now, ya?)

As for your ideas, Silverthorne . . . Have you ever thought about setting up your own conversion for everyone just for fun in order to make a Dragonball d20 for those who do want *true* conversions?  They wouldn't be usable in normal campaigns, but for the power gamers out there, that would probably be pretty sweet.


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## Silverthrone (Sep 23, 2002)

I do not do a D20 conversion mainly because Goku, before going super saiyan one would have had a str score of approximately over one billion in D20 rules.

The system simply does not do DBZ level numbers well.


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## Glorfindel (Sep 23, 2002)

Silverthrone said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I can get that together in a PDF for you. THanks for your interest.
> 
> ...




Cool to get it in PDF that is =))
my e-mail is Darkness@dragonsworn.com
Um well I live in Sweden and they can`t get the Androids Sporcebook, belive me I`v tried but it is only realised in the US I think, if you know of a place were I can order it I would be very thankfull =))

What is Vegetas stats in the Androids Sourcebook? or well his Power level? =))

Thanks Silverthrone =))

(P.S hmm Silverthrone would you like to DM for me? when I`m playing Vegeta? It would be very fun, if you see the plot line under this post, what do you think? It would help me learn the rules and it would be a great campaign =))


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## Glorfindel (Sep 23, 2002)

Anubis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Once I have finished the Super Saiyan conversion, I can probably do this pretty easily. *




I understand that you are bussy (sp?) with the Tyranids and such, but I realy hope that you can post the rules for Super Saiyans soon =) I want to try the rules as soon as possible but I`m going for a different angle than the series. In my ...dimension the Saiyan work for Majin (whats his name, not Buu, the guy that wants him awakened) and destroys planets and such. Majin Vegeta have all the Toughness feats from your feat chain and Immortality (w/o the other prerequests) this is from the Magic of Majin (whats his name) making him immortal as long as he obeys and do his jobb. =)) The heros/PC`s/Victims will be aliens or some other for of humans and the campaign will start from there. It will be clashes with Freeza, Cooler and King Cold etc etc

hmm seems I just keep going on and on, well Anubis just so you know, you`v got a fan =))


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## Anabstercorian (Sep 23, 2002)

I think you're thinking of Bavidi.  Bividi Bavidi Buu.

God, how did they get away with that?

Anyhow, good luck getting the Super Saiya-jin rules to work.  I'm sure they won't be easy.


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## Silverthrone (Sep 23, 2002)

It is Bibidi, Babadi, Dabura, and Buu. All words from the fairy godmother's song in Cinderella.

Many of the names in Dragonball have themes or meaning.


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## Glorfindel (Sep 24, 2002)

Please, Silverthrone could you give me Vegetas stats from the Android book and the rules for Super Saiyan 2?
It would be of great help =)


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## Glorfindel (Sep 24, 2002)

Anubis, do you think you could post the Super Saiyan rules before this month ends?


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## Glorfindel (Sep 26, 2002)




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## Anabstercorian (Sep 27, 2002)

*Wow!*

I just saw the episode where Goku transforms to Super Saiyan 3 for the first time, and I'll say this - He's one hard core mother fugger!

I imagine it like this - A Saiya-jin is a line.  A Super Saiya-jin is a plane.  A Super Saiya-jin 2 is an infinitely large solid.  A Super Saiya-jin 3 is four dimensions of senses and ki.

Okay, that's stupid, but I wanted to share my concept of how geometric the power expansion is...  And an idea for game mechanics.

What if Super Saiya-jin is a prestige class, and in order to transform, you have to make a skill check with the skill Super Saiya-jin Transformation - an exclusive skill available solely to the Super Saiya-jin prestige class?  Going up in level increases your skill at transformations (allowing you to complete them faster) and teaches you new transformations (granting your various stages of Super Saiya-jin more kick.)


----------



## Anubis (Sep 27, 2002)

*Re: Wow!*



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> Anubis, do you think you could post the Super Saiyan rules before this month ends?
> *




Possible, but not likely.  I need to finish the mechanics of going Super Saiyan before I can work on the mechanics for Super Saiyan 2.  It is certainly possible, just not probable.  I'll do my best, though!  I may even have the Super Saiyan details up tonight, if I'm lucky!



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *
> I just saw the episode where Goku transforms to Super Saiyan 3 for the first time, and I'll say this - He's one hard core mother fugger!
> *




Hell yeah!  This was my first time actually seeing this episode, and I loved it!



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *
> I imagine it like this - A Saiya-jin is a line.  A Super Saiya-jin is a plane.  A Super Saiya-jin 2 is an infinitely large solid.  A Super Saiya-jin 3 is four dimensions of senses and ki.
> *




An interesting analogy to say the least.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *
> Okay, that's stupid, but I wanted to share my concept of how geometric the power expansion is...  And an idea for game mechanics.
> *




Alrighty then.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *
> What if Super Saiya-jin is a prestige class, and in order to transform, you have to make a skill check with the skill Super Saiya-jin Transformation - an exclusive skill available solely to the Super Saiya-jin prestige class?  Going up in level increases your skill at transformations (allowing you to complete them faster) and teaches you new transformations (granting your various stages of Super Saiya-jin more kick.)
> *




A Prestige Class was my first idea, but then I realized that the advancement of Super Saiyans powers is not linear, and can never be linear, so a Prestige Class fails to properly translate Super Saiyan ability.  For most Saiyans, the initial transformation into a Super Saiyan is involuntary and quite dramatic, thus a knowing "class" wouldn't fit.

I doubt the skill works either, honestly.  Going Super Saiyan never struck me as a skill, but rather a raw talent.  How many times did anyone "fail" to go Super Saiyan?  None.  You equate going Super Saiyan to something like riding a bicycle, when it is more like a matter of "where there's a will, there's a way", like walking or putting your fist through a cinder block.

I don't think I explained that very well, but it'll have to do.  Basically, I'm handling Super Saiyans much in the same way deities are handled, by their own special template.


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## Glorfindel (Sep 27, 2002)

Wow mayby up with the Supe Saiyan 1 rules by tonight =))
I`m going right back to this board after the cinema =)))


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## Anubis (Sep 27, 2002)

Sorry, I didn't get it done yet.  I ran into a testing problem.   

Any which way, the actual rules WILL be done by the end of the month, although I most likely will be unable to get to Vegeta by that time.  So ya' get some, but not all.

Anyway, more later.


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## Anabstercorian (Sep 27, 2002)

*Here's what I really meant.*

I'm sure you've noticed that the first time that Goku transforms to any given level of Super Saiyen, it takes him freakin' forever.  But later on, he can do it nearly instantly.  I view that like this:

Super Saiyen Transformation

DC 30 - Transform to super saiyen.
DC 50 - Transform to Super Saiyen as a free action.
DC 70 - Transform to Super Saiyen 2.
DC 90 - Transform to Super Saiyen 2 as a free action.
DC 110 - Transform to Super Saiyen 3.

You can roll over and over and over until you succeed.  Goku isn't failing, per se - It's just taking him a long time to roll high enough, to reach the proper state of emotional and spiritual purity.  However, each time you roll, you take 1d4 hit points of damage - Transforming does drain Ki.


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## Buddha the DM (Sep 27, 2002)

*Anabstercorian:* What ability score would you key that skill to?


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## Glorfindel (Sep 27, 2002)

Anabstercorian
No it would not suffice in a skill.
Goku never takes time to transform, its only to become super saiyan 3 that takes time.

Movie 12 Son Goten and Trunks changes in les than a second and the return of Kooler Vegita changes just like that.

I don`t mean to be rude or anything the ide itself is good but I don`t think it would capture the DBZ feeling.

And if Goku takes a long time charging up to become Super Saiyan please give me the number of the episod =))

And Buddha the DM probably Con =)


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## Anubis (Sep 27, 2002)

Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *Anabstercorian
> No it would not suffice in a skill.
> Goku never takes time to transform, its only to become super saiyan 3 that takes time.
> 
> ...




Anabstercorian is correct about the first transformation into any Super Saiyan form taking a long time.  See the following episodes for each person and transformation:

Goku, Super Saiyan, Episode 80 "Transformed At Last"
Goku, Super Saiyan 2, Not Shown (happens while Goku is in the afterlife)
Goku, Super Saiyan 3, Episode 230 "Super Saiyan 3?!"
Vegeta, Super Saiyan, Episode 114 "Upgrade To Super Saiyan"
Vegeta, Super Saiyan 2, Unknown (attains this power through Babidi's control)
Gohan, Super Saiyan, Episode 152 "The Doomsday Broadcast"
Gohan, Super Saiyan 2, Episode 169 Children Of Cell Attack" - 170 "The Unleashing"
Trunks, Super Saiyan, Not Shown (Mirai Trunks shown during Trunks Special)
Goten, Super Saiyan, Not Shown
Gotenks, Super Saiyan 3, Episode 245 "Feeding Frenzy"

Glorfindel, you are, however, correct that once the first transformation occurs, it is done effortlessly in the future.  That is precisely why I felt a skill check would not suffice.  Only the first transformation takes time, and after that, it's no problem at all, except for Super Saiyan 3, which does take a small amount of time.

I would make transformations after the first a free or move-equivilent action.


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## Glorfindel (Sep 27, 2002)

Thanks Anubis.
You realy know your Dragon Ball Z =))
I guess your not going to make any of the NPC`s from the series like Perfect Cell?

Were is the thread about Tyranids?


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## Daelin_Farseer (Sep 28, 2002)

*Super Saiyajin*

Two points of note:

Actually, Gohan did try and fail to become a super saiyajin on at least one (visible) occasion.  This, of course, does depend on your definition of fail, but it is arguable that for the first several months that Gohan and Goku spent in the alternate dimension, Gohan tried and failed several times to turn into a super saiyajin.

Also, it is commonly held, online at least, that the SSJ3 form is one that can only be attained through training.  No form of anger-driven powerup or magical boost (as in the case of Majin Vegita being able to achieve SSJ2) can elevate someone's power to that point.  I don't have an episode reference for this one, but I only own DVD's up to the creation of Vegitto and don't generally trust the content of the American dubbed versions of the episodes.

Next, Goku indicates in the episode where he turns SSJ3 that he 'isn't used to the transformation' (from memory and the subbed, DVD, version).  He has obviously transformed that way before, and the length of time that the transformation requires is debatable.

And finally, there is some support to the idea that powering up to the SSJ level -is- a trainable skill, provided sufficient power exists.  When quizzed by Mirai Trunks after his arrival on Earth, Goku states (again, from memory) that '..at first, I couldn't transform unless I was angry, but then it got easier..'.  Thing is, we never actually -see- any of this on screen.  In almost every case, we either see an initial transformation or one that the protagonists are very comfortable with.  It's all this 'behind the scenes' stuff that otherwise complicates the issue.


----------



## Anubis (Sep 28, 2002)

*Re: Super Saiyajin*



			
				Daelin_Farseer said:
			
		

> *
> Actually, Gohan did try and fail to become a super saiyajin on at least one (visible) occasion.  This, of course, does depend on your definition of fail, but it is arguable that for the first several months that Gohan and Goku spent in the alternate dimension, Gohan tried and failed several times to turn into a super saiyajin.
> *




Remember though that those failure were prior to his ever becoming a Super Saiyan.  For whatever reason, Gohan had more trouble than anyone gaining power.



			
				Daelin_Farseer said:
			
		

> *
> Also, it is commonly held, online at least, that the SSJ3 form is one that can only be attained through training.  No form of anger-driven powerup or magical boost (as in the case of Majin Vegita being able to achieve SSJ2) can elevate someone's power to that point.  I don't have an episode reference for this one, but I only own DVD's up to the creation of Vegitto and don't generally trust the content of the American dubbed versions of the episodes.
> *




Actually, all Super Saiyan forms require training.  This will be reflected in the Super Saiyan template.



			
				Daelin_Farseer said:
			
		

> *
> Next, Goku indicates in the episode where he turns SSJ3 that he 'isn't used to the transformation' (from memory and the subbed, DVD, version).  He has obviously transformed that way before, and the length of time that the transformation requires is debatable.
> *




That is why a Super Saiyan 3 transformation, unlike all others, requires time.



			
				Daelin_Farseer said:
			
		

> *
> And finally, there is some support to the idea that powering up to the SSJ level -is- a trainable skill, provided sufficient power exists.  When quizzed by Mirai Trunks after his arrival on Earth, Goku states (again, from memory) that '..at first, I couldn't transform unless I was angry, but then it got easier..'.  Thing is, we never actually -see- any of this on screen.  In almost every case, we either see an initial transformation or one that the protagonists are very comfortable with.  It's all this 'behind the scenes' stuff that otherwise complicates the issue.
> *




This is a questionable issue at best.  Once Vegeta goes Super Saiyan the first time, he never again has any trouble.  Trunks and Goten seem to never have trouble in the first place.  Basically, since even the series is a bit sporadic on this issue, I am going to disregard it for the sake of simplicity.

I have also disregarded the "middle" levels such as Super Saiyan 2nd Grade, Super Saiyan 3rd Grade, Super Saiyan Full Power, etc.  These levels overly complicate matters and are so rarely used that no suitable information about these forms really exist to a great enough extent to warrant a conversion.


----------



## Anubis (Sep 28, 2002)

*Update - September 28, 2002:*

Rules for Super Saiyans are finally up!


----------



## Glorfindel (Sep 28, 2002)

YAY the rules, all the rules *smiles*
Now I can finaly start planing the campaigns.
Anubis I hope you have time to do Majin Vegeta =)
He is vital to the campaign and I don`t trust my self to do him, I tried but he is just getting to overpowered, even for a Saiyan (go figure =).

Oh Have you ever read or seen the Anime serie the Guyver?
If you have there is a fan-fic that I realy like called emm "Great war of the Guyvers" there they have this guyver called Anubis that is realy cool =))

Looking forward to more info =)


----------



## Anubis (Sep 28, 2002)

Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> YAY the rules, all the rules *smiles*
> Now I can finaly start planing the campaigns.
> Anubis I hope you have time to do Majin Vegeta =)
> ...




I'll be getting to Majin Vegeta most likely within the next week.  I'll be starting work Monday, I MAY have it done by Tuesday, although I can't make any guarantees.  I am aiming for Tuesday though.

As for how powerful he is . . . Well, just keep in mind that he will be more powerful than many deities, so . . . I mean, heck, just looking at the base stats, he could probably beat most of the deities in Deities & Demigods (except for the Greater Deities and maybe some Intermediate Deities), if that tells you anything . . .

Remember, Saiyans are for nearly Epic campaigns already.  Super Saiyans are most certainly for Epic campaigns only.  (Natural considering any Super Saiyan could single-handedly take out anything in the Monster Manual except for MAYBE Tarrasque!)

Anyway, I am working on the Majin Vegeta conversion.  Be warned, he is EXTREMELY powerful.  Look for him to be about ECL 80-90, which would make him approximately CR 40 or 41 by the "Rules: Effective Character Levels and Challenge Ratings" that you can find here:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25693

Note that these Saiyans, my list of feats, and the new ECL rules should be used together.  If not, the system could easily break down, because the core rules simply are not able to handle Saiyans as-is. 



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> Oh Have you ever read or seen the Anime serie the Guyver?
> If you have there is a fan-fic that I realy like called emm "Great war of the Guyvers" there they have this guyver called Anubis that is realy cool =))
> 
> ...




I've seen the two Guyver movies, but never seen the Anime.


----------



## Daelin_Farseer (Sep 28, 2002)

*Re: Re: Super Saiyajin*



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Remember though that those failure were prior to his ever becoming a Super Saiyan.  For whatever reason, Gohan had more trouble than anyone gaining power.
> *




You didn't make your position clear on this before.  It is (obviously) true that once the transformation happens, it can happen again.




			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *
> Actually, all Super Saiyan forms require training.  This will be reflected in the Super Saiyan template.
> 
> That is why a Super Saiyan 3 transformation, unlike all others, requires time.
> *




That's circular reasoning.  It requires training to achieve a level of power that supports the SSJ powerup, but no amount of training (alone) will allow anyone to transform into the first two versions.  The third powerup does not require the same anger trigger...it's a powerup more in line (IMO) with Frieza's transformations...requiring a certain amount of effort, training, and yes, time.



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *
> This is a questionable issue at best.  Once Vegeta goes Super Saiyan the first time, he never again has any trouble.  Trunks and Goten seem to never have trouble in the first place.  Basically, since even the series is a bit sporadic on this issue, I am going to disregard it for the sake of simplicity.
> *




As mentioned previously, all this is off camera.  We only see Vegita's initial transformation, and then again when he fights against the artificial humans...nothing intermediary.  Goten and Trunks are obviously well accustomed to the change...again, we never see their first transformations.  I think you're seeing exactly what you want to see...and so am I.  I see sufficient evidence in the series to suggest that the SSJ transformation is a skill (after the initial, anger-triggered one), that must be trained before it comes as naturally as our protagonists make it out to be.



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I have also disregarded the "middle" levels such as Super Saiyan 2nd Grade, Super Saiyan 3rd Grade, Super Saiyan Full Power, etc.  These levels overly complicate matters and are so rarely used that no suitable information about these forms really exist to a great enough extent to warrant a conversion. *




This, at least, I fully agree with.


----------



## Glorfindel (Sep 28, 2002)

Oh cool =) Looking forward to Thuesday =))
Is he going to have the Immortal feat? I know he dosen`t have it in the series but it would seem so right for him, to finaly get his wish =))

When he is done I`m going to try him out against Dragons and such =)

I don`t have the ELH but I know the there is something like Perfect 2 weapon fighting that gives a fighter 4 attacks in his off hand, was just wonduring if Vegeta would have that? Giving him 8 attacks, 10 with Speed.


----------



## Anubis (Sep 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Super Saiyajin*



			
				Daelin_Farseer said:
			
		

> *
> You didn't make your position clear on this before.  It is (obviously) true that once the transformation happens, it can happen again.
> *




Sorry about that.  Didn't mean to confuse anything.



			
				Daelin_Farseer said:
			
		

> *
> That's circular reasoning.  It requires training to achieve a level of power that supports the SSJ powerup, but no amount of training (alone) will allow anyone to transform into the first two versions.  The third powerup does not require the same anger trigger...it's a powerup more in line (IMO) with Frieza's transformations...requiring a certain amount of effort, training, and yes, time.
> *




All of this is covered in the template.  Go take a look, I think you'll be satisfied on this issue.  It required slight DM discretion, but I think I have it nailed down pretty well.



			
				Daelin_Farseer said:
			
		

> *
> As mentioned previously, all this is off camera.  We only see Vegita's initial transformation, and then again when he fights against the artificial humans...nothing intermediary.  Goten and Trunks are obviously well accustomed to the change...again, we never see their first transformations.  I think you're seeing exactly what you want to see...and so am I.  I see sufficient evidence in the series to suggest that the SSJ transformation is a skill (after the initial, anger-triggered one), that must be trained before it comes as naturally as our protagonists make it out to be.
> *




Maybe.  Maybe not.  The only time it is even thought of is during Goku's conversation with Mirai Trunks, and is never against mentioned.  Also, since this "training" seems to be more practice than actual training (where it is seen atl east), and since the practice doesn't seem to come from gaining power, than it could not be translated into a skill very well at all, because skills only gain ranks when a level is gained.  Since this "practice" doesn't seem to come with power gains under any circumstance, and happens so quickly, I've gotta go with my gut and say it's not a "skill" as per the rules, even if it is a skill by defition.  See what I'm saying?



			
				Daelin_Farseer said:
			
		

> *
> This, at least, I fully agree with.
> *




 



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> Oh cool =) Looking forward to Thuesday =))
> Is he going to have the Immortal feat? I know he dosen`t have it in the series but it would seem so right for him, to finaly get his wish =))
> *




I'm gonna convert Vegeta as-is, so no, he won't have the Immortality feat.  In fact, I don't believe Vegeta EVER gets his with, because he dies of old age by the end of Dragonball GT.



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> When he is done I`m going to try him out against Dragons and such =)
> *




Vegeta simply can't be challenged by the dragons in the MM.  You can go ahead and do it, maybe in a game, just to show off how powerful he is, but only Prismatic Dragons and Force Dragons would have any real chance, or maybe REALLY advanced dragons.  Once I've done the conversion, I would be more than happy to perhaps post a sampl creature from the ELH for you to test Vegeta against, if you like.



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> I don`t have the ELH but I know the there is something like Perfect 2 weapon fighting that gives a fighter 4 attacks in his off hand, was just wonduring if Vegeta would have that? Giving him 8 attacks, 10 with Speed.
> *




Vegeta doesn't use weapons, so he has no need for any such feats.  He'll be a Saiyan Warrior 20/Saiyan Elite 40 with the ability to tranform into a Super Saiyan 2.  He'll likely have 5 attacks in his normal form and 13 attacks in any of his Super Saiyan forms.  My current plans have him at an ECL of 115.  Not set in stone yet, but that's how he's looking.


----------



## Glorfindel (Sep 29, 2002)

He dies *AAARRGGHH* haven`t seen them yet =)

Yeah that would be very cool, to try him out... hmm mayby you would like to do it over a post board? The fight that is =)

What would an ECL 0f 115 be in CR?
13 attack, at what damage?


----------



## Immort (Sep 29, 2002)

I must say that I appreciated all the energy you put into this.  The stat setup is well thought out, thumbs up to you.  I alos have just seen the episode where Goku goes SS3 (being limited to what cartoon network deigns to show me).

-Immort


----------



## Glorfindel (Sep 29, 2002)

Anubis do you DM online?

And for Vegeta could you write down some Tactics, I have never played an epic character before and well to use all these new feats that he will have it will take a few fights until I can use him at his full potential.

What kinda "monster" were you thinking of challenging Majin Vegeta with?

Hihi 
  Can`t stop jumping around wishing it would be Thuesday.
I can hardly wait =))


----------



## Anubis (Sep 29, 2002)

Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> He dies *AAARRGGHH* haven`t seen them yet =)
> *




It's not really a spoiler, and you won't get to see it for a very long time, because it doesn't happen until Episode 64 of Dragonball GT, and takes place off-screen.  Basically, they go to "100 years in the future", and it says "None of the warriors from that time remain, except for one", and that one is Pan.  Of course, Goku is there too, but he's become Immortal or maybe even a deity by that point, no longer a normal fighter.  You'd have to see all of Dragonball GT to understand; Episode 64 of GT is the very last Dragonball episode.

Basically, after the Dark Dragon is defeated, the Z Fighters live the rest of their lives in peace and die of old age.



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> Yeah that would be very cool, to try him out... hmm mayby you would like to do it over a post board? The fight that is =)
> *




UK and I have kinda proven that an online message board battle doesn't work out very well . . .  Don't worry, I can just give you the states of a good monster, and you can try it out yourself without another player, or with your gaming group.  I don't think I'll be doing anymore online battles anytime soon.



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> What would an ECL 0f 115 be in CR?
> 13 attack, at what damage?
> *




CR 44 . . . Damage base would be 1d20.



			
				Immort said:
			
		

> *
> I must say that I appreciated all the energy you put into this.  The stat setup is well thought out, thumbs up to you.  I alos have just seen the episode where Goku goes SS3 (being limited to what cartoon network deigns to show me).
> 
> -Immort
> *




Thanks!  I glad people can enjoy my work!



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> Anubis do you DM online?
> *




Nope.



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> And for Vegeta could you write down some Tactics, I have never played an epic character before and well to use all these new feats that he will have it will take a few fights until I can use him at his full potential.
> *




Beat it down, and if that don't work, blast it to bits.  Vegeta's battle mentality is pretty simple. 



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> What kinda "monster" were you thinking of challenging Majin Vegeta with?
> *




Hmmm . . . A Hecatoncheires would be beyond his abilities . . . I'd have to look at the ELH to find something suitable.  Just to give an idea, though . . . Vecna from Deities & Demigods is ECL 100.



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> Hihi
> Can`t stop jumping around wishing it would be Thuesday.
> I can hardly wait =))
> *


----------



## Wolvorine (Sep 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Wow!*



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *
> I doubt the skill works either, honestly.  Going Super Saiyan never struck me as a skill, but rather a raw talent.  How many times did anyone "fail" to go Super Saiyan?  None.  You equate going Super Saiyan to something like riding a bicycle, when it is more like a matter of "where there's a will, there's a way", like walking or putting your fist through a cinder block.
> *



Three things to keep in mind while reading my response here;
1) I have very limited DBZ knowledge (my kid used to watch it constantly on cartoon network, so I heard a lot of episodes while in the next room)
2) I've only read page 1 of this thread so far. 
3) I scanned - but did not carefully read in detail - your writeup.

That in mind, if it's a raw talent and not a skill, should Super-Saiyan be a series of Feats available only to Saiyans?

What I'd be interested in seeing would be a good write-up of Nemmiks.


----------



## Silverthrone (Sep 30, 2002)

*Basically, after the Dark Dragon is defeated, the Z Fighters live the rest of their lives in peace and die of old age.*

There is the Future Goku Special that happens after GT.


----------



## Glorfindel (Sep 30, 2002)

Oh Anubis, what do you think Vegeta would evolve like? With the stats you will put here as a start, were would he go from there, what class and what feats would he take?

Thinking I might make him stronger over time =)
Mayby make him a Super Saiyan 3 even though he never reacht it in the series, or just Super Saiyan 4 =)

I have started playing with him now, but as a player, want to get the right feel before I use him as an NPC.
He crashed on a planet full of powerfull magic. Well it is a fantasy world, and he is about to start to explore it =))

Why am I even writing this... oh well alot of things that I do don`t make sense


----------



## Anubis (Oct 1, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Wow!*



			
				Wolvorine said:
			
		

> *
> Three things to keep in mind while reading my response here;
> 1) I have very limited DBZ knowledge (my kid used to watch it constantly on cartoon network, so I heard a lot of episodes while in the next room)
> 2) I've only read page 1 of this thread so far.
> ...




I've already completed all the Super Saiyan conversions.  Check out the first post of the topic for the updates, I'll be keeping all information there.  I update it as necessary with the actual rules and such.  Whenever I post an update here, that means the first post of the topic was updated to reflect the changes.

I think it works out pretty perfectly as a template that requires various numbers of class levels to achieve.  In that way, it is trainable (by gaining levels) AND raw talents.  Check out the main post for details, it's all there!  Super Saiyan feats would just be cheesy, and skills would put too many variables that don't belong into the equation.

As for Namekians, I currently have no plans to convert them.  There simply is not enough information about them to do a full conversion.



			
				Silverthrone said:
			
		

> *
> There is the Future Goku Special that happens after GT.
> *




I know that, I've seen it.  Part of what I said happens on Episode 64 actually happens in that special . . . My bad!  Episode 64 only shows that Goku has become somewhat of a deity and that he's immortal.  The special actually states that the rest of the Z Fighters have died by that time.  Both Episode 64 and the special take place 100 years after the end of Dragonball GT.



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> Oh Anubis, what do you think Vegeta would evolve like? With the stats you will put here as a start, were would he go from there, what class and what feats would he take?
> *




Honestly, based on the series, Vegeta doesn't get much more powerful after attaining the level of Super Saiyan 2.  In fact, except for reaching Super Saiyan 4 once with help from Bulma, his gains are minimal.

I would say he would just keep gaining levels in the Saiyan Elite Epic Prestige Class.  He would eventually gain ranks in Knowledge (fusion dance), but that's about it.  He doesn't even gain the ability to actually go Super Saiyan 4, at least not by himself.

At the time of his death, Vegeta is a Super Saiyan 2 SjW20/SjE50.  By the end of Dragonball Z, he would be SjW20/SjE55.  By the end of Dragonball GT, he would be SjW20/SjE60.

Pretty much, if you wanna make him more powerful, you'll have to break away from the series.  Maybe have him get wished back into a child like what happened to Goku so he can get his tail back, then let him gain enough levels to reach Super Saiyan 3.  Of course, with his tail, he could automatically reach Super Saiyan 4.  Oh, and you could always make more levels of Super Saiyan by just extrapolating the numbers from the first four levels.  I may demonstrate an example of Super Saiyan 5 some day if I feel froggy.  



			
				Wolvorine said:
			
		

> *
> Thinking I might make him stronger over time =)
> Mayby make him a Super Saiyan 3 even though he never reacht it in the series, or just Super Saiyan 4 =)
> *




He doesn't need to be able to go Super Saiyan 3 to go Super Saiyan 4.  He needs 100 class levels to go Super Saiyan 3 and his tail to go Super Saiyan 4.



			
				Wolvorine said:
			
		

> *
> I have started playing with him now, but as a player, want to get the right feel before I use him as an NPC.
> He crashed on a planet full of powerfull magic. Well it is a fantasy world, and he is about to start to explore it =))
> *




Hehehe . . . I feel sorry for the monsters on that planet unless they have deities roaming around . . . 

I would NOT throw him against PCs, at least not until they are all at least Level 80.



			
				Wolvorine said:
			
		

> *
> Why am I even writing this... oh well alot of things that I do don`t make sense
> *




It's all good!  I'm done with Vegeta now, and I'm getting ready to post!


----------



## Anubis (Oct 1, 2002)

*VEGETA*

I took this post down to save room.


----------



## Anubis (Oct 1, 2002)

*Update - September 30, 2002:*

After converting Vegeta, I posted some errata in the section on Super Saiyans.  They don't need Salient Divine Abilities to be powerful, nor should they have Salient Divine Abilities.

Super Saiyans are still considered deities, however, for purposes of determining whether certain attacks effect them or not.

That's all!  ENJOY!


----------



## Buddha the DM (Oct 1, 2002)

_frantically searches for his jaw that just fell off after reading the write-up on Vegita...._


----------



## Silverthrone (Oct 1, 2002)

If it is any help to you Anubis, I could give you the damage scale used by the R. Talsorian game to give you an idea of Saiyan damage and how it scales in that system.


----------



## Anubis (Oct 1, 2002)

Silverthrone said:
			
		

> *
> If it is any help to you Anubis, I could give you the damage scale used by the R. Talsorian game to give you an idea of Saiyan damage and how it scales in that system.
> *




Um, I really don't think these boys need any more power!  

Thanks anyway!


----------



## Glorfindel (Oct 1, 2002)

YEEEESSSS the power I can feel the power of it all  
He looks great =)
The str enchantment on his armor is it added to the profil?

Oh I`m going to make some serious boot kicking for goodness...errr evilness with this guy =))

Anubis *looks innocent* Are you going to make rules for Fuzion?
hehe.

Thanks Anubis these rules are great and the Vegeta stats are great, thank you some much


----------



## Glorfindel (Oct 1, 2002)

Ummm Anubis, how possibly could I`v fit him on a character Sheet. Are there any Epic character sheets out there?


----------



## Glorfindel (Oct 1, 2002)

How about this as a scary character? It is Brolly as a Super Saiyan 4


----------



## Glorfindel (Oct 1, 2002)

Anubis some of the Feats on Vegeta are writen two times. Is it an error or can you take them more than once.
it think it was "Great Fortitude" and "Improved Ki strike"

I am using 3 character sheets to give him the most flexebility, will probably make more for Super Saiyn 3 and 4 and well 5 if you make apperence for them =)


----------



## Anabstercorian (Oct 1, 2002)

Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *Anubis some of the Feats on Vegeta are writen two times. Is it an error or can you take them more than once.
> it think it was "Great Fortitude" and "Improved Ki strike"
> 
> I am using 3 character sheets to give him the most flexebility, will probably make more for Super Saiyn 3 and 4 and well 5 if you make apperence for them =) *




If this is the case, I'd replace those two feats with Fast Healing, which could be vital for him.  Given how much damage his own Ki abilities will do to him, they could save his life at times, and grant him exponentially more staying power.


----------



## Anubis (Oct 1, 2002)

Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> YEEEESSSS the power I can feel the power of it all
> He looks great =)
> The str enchantment on his armor is it added to the profil?
> *




Yep, the total ability scores with all enhancements is in parentheses.  On a side note, I may have to change him because the equipment may be WAY off.  UK and I are discussing it as we speak.  Basically, when I saw how powerful Vegeta was, I thought, THIS IS TOO MUCH.  Even for Vegeta.



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> Oh I`m going to make some serious boot kicking for goodness...errr evilness with this guy =))
> *




Ouch.  



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> Anubis *looks innocent* Are you going to make rules for Fuzion?
> hehe.
> *




I already have rules for both Potarra Earrings and the Fusion Dance.  Pretty simple really.  With the Potarra Earrings, fusion is permanent, and the resulting character is a combination of both characters.  (That part is hard to explain, however; basically, you compare the ability score bonuses/penalties and add them up, and the fused character has an ability score that equals that modifier.  Levels are the sun of all levels of both characters, and skills and feats are the sun of both characters' as well.  Some abilities may overlap.)  With the Fusion Dance, fusion only lasts for 30 minutes, 10 minutes in any form above Super Saiyan 3, and if either character is stronger, he has to giove himself negative levels to lower his power.  The character gets all the same things the other fusion gives, except levels, skills, and feats, can't exceed double the weaker character's.



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> Thanks Anubis these rules are great and the Vegeta stats are great, thank you some much
> *




Gla you like!



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> Ummm Anubis, how possibly could I`v fit him on a character Sheet. Are there any Epic character sheets out there?
> *




Sorry, I wish.  No you may just have to use regular paper.



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> How about this as a scary character? It is Brolly as a Super Saiyan 4
> *




Did you make that yourself?  I don't recall Brolly ever making it past the level of Legendary Super Saiyan . . .



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> Anubis some of the Feats on Vegeta are writen two times. Is it an error or can you take them more than once.
> it think it was "Great Fortitude" and "Improved Ki strike"
> *




No, there is Great Fortitude and Epic Fortitude.  You need the ELH to properly use Vegeta, to be honest.  Improved Ki Strike can be taken multiple times, it makes the ki strike monk ability more powerful.



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> I am using 3 character sheets to give him the most flexebility, will probably make more for Super Saiyn 3 and 4 and well 5 if you make apperence for them =)
> *




Cool!  I may work on a Super Saiyan 5 some time in the future, but beward, not even UK's most powerful deities would be able to stand up to him.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *
> If this is the case, I'd replace those two feats with Fast Healing, which could be vital for him.  Given how much damage his own Ki abilities will do to him, they could save his life at times, and grant him exponentially more staying power.
> *




Actually, I simply tried to give him the abilities he had on the show to the best of my ability.


----------



## Glorfindel (Oct 1, 2002)

Anubis, don`t make Vegeta les powerfull, les is bad. And I realy like him actually.

Brolly never made it to Super Saiyan 4 but imagen the power he would have, hehe =)

The feat.. um remain consious (sp?) what does that do? Can`t find it anywhere. 

I bought the ELH today so I can use Vegeta to his full abilities.

Hmm how about to make a new villaine, like one of the dragons from GT (haven`t seen them so I don`t realy know what I`m talking about) to challange him, I`m hoping that I can`t test him out tonight =))

Wonduring are you going to make a Goku? Would want to see how Vegetto and Gogeta would be like =))

Mayby make some stats for Brolly as a Super Saiyan 4, and then have a campaign about that and have Vegeta go Super Saiyan 5 to defeat him =))


----------



## Anubis (Oct 1, 2002)

Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> Anubis, don`t make Vegeta les powerfull, les is bad. And I realy like him actually.
> *




Unfortunately, I must weaken him.  As he is, he is invincible for the most part except from the most powerful of deities.  Don't worry, he'll still be very powerful.



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> Brolly never made it to Super Saiyan 4 but imagen the power he would have, hehe =)
> *




Ah.



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> The feat.. um remain consious (sp?) what does that do? Can`t find it anywhere.
> *




Sword & Fist.  It allows a person below 0 hit points to continue taking partial actions each round.  Considering Vegeta won't die until well below -500 hit points, that's quite a bit!  Check out my feats page for details on how that works.



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> I bought the ELH today so I can use Vegeta to his full abilities.
> *




Awesome!



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> Hmm how about to make a new villaine, like one of the dragons from GT (haven`t seen them so I don`t realy know what I`m talking about) to challange him, I`m hoping that I can`t test him out tonight =))
> *




Just make a creature and give him abilities by my ECL page modifiers.



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> Wonduring are you going to make a Goku? Would want to see how Vegetto and Gogeta would be like =))
> *




Maybe, some day in the future.



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> Mayby make some stats for Brolly as a Super Saiyan 4, and then have a campaign about that and have Vegeta go Super Saiyan 5 to defeat him =))
> *




This would be much more difficult.


----------



## Anubis (Oct 1, 2002)

*VEGETA REVISED*

I took this post down to save room.


----------



## Glorfindel (Oct 1, 2002)

He is still Great =))
Well I`m going to keep the old one but use the new one in my games... is it at lv 80 he reach Super Saiyan 4?

Now what to test him on? What is equal to him in power now?


----------



## Anubis (Oct 2, 2002)

Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> He is still Great =))
> Well I`m going to keep the old one but use the new one in my games... is it at lv 80 he reach Super Saiyan 4?
> *




Super Saiyan 4 does not require any specific level.  The Saiyan must be able to transfrom into both a Super Saiyan and an Oozaru.  Go back and read all the Saiyan information, it's all in there.  Vegeta can't go Super Saiyan 4 because he doesn't have his tail.

He can go Super Saiyan 3 once he has 100 class levels.



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> Now what to test him on? What is equal to him in power now? *




Try him out against a Xixecal, which by my calculations has an ECL of 102, making it CR 42.  Vegeta should be able to win the fight, but he won't come out of it unscathed.  If he wins, he'll get 6,600 XP.  

As an alternative, if you have Deities & Demigods, try putting him against Vecna, which calculates to be ECL 100, also CR 42.  Still 6,600 XP for a victory.  (Keep in mind, however, that because the Vecna in Deities & Demigods is weak and kinda pathetic, if Vegeta wins initiative, he'll probably rip Vecna apart with a Galick-Ho, done with Epic Ki Blast, before Vecna even notices he's being assaulted by a Super Saiyan. )

Don't bother testing out the other more powerful Vegeta, 'cause I'm 100% certain he would rip through ANYTHING released by WotC thus far.  Don't use that one in any game, he's not balanced.  My revised Vegeta is perfectly balanced.


----------



## Glorfindel (Oct 2, 2002)

Oki I shall test him against a Xixecal =)

Hmm a hundred levels, thats pretty much, 30 levels more no wonder he never reaches it =)
Then a Super Saiyan 4, I have to get him a tail again =)

What level do you think Brolly would have, he being soooo powerfull?

Mayby should by deites and demigods *wondures*


----------



## Glorfindel (Oct 2, 2002)

hmm Anubis, at what level would Vegeta need to be to have that equipment you gave him first? I liked that Vegeta *smiles*.

How about to give him (this goes outside the series) 30 more character levels in Saiyan Elite (how is that class done for levels over 20? What feats do he get etc etc) and make him Super Saiyan 3, is he high enough to have the equipment then?


----------



## Anubis (Oct 2, 2002)

Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> How about to give him (this goes outside the series) 30 more character levels in Saiyan Elite (how is that class done for levels over 20? What feats do he get etc etc) and make him Super Saiyan 3, is he high enough to have the equipment then?
> *




Check teh ELH for rules for class levels over 20.  Saiyan Warriors over Level 20 gain a bonus feat every four levels and currently use the Saiyan Elite feat list.  Saiyan Elites over Level 20 continue to gain a bonus feat every four levels as normal.

Even with 100 class levels, Vegeta wouldn't come close to the equipment I gave him before.



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> hmm Anubis, at what level would Vegeta need to be to have that equipment you gave him first? I liked that Vegeta *smiles*.
> *




He would need to have an ECL of 2,636!  By the way, that would be CR 90, in case you're wondering, and he would be one of the most powerful beings in the universe.


----------



## Glorfindel (Oct 2, 2002)

ECL 2,636, sounds cool, but I think I would need alot more character sheets =)


----------



## Anubis (Oct 3, 2002)

*Update - October 2, 2002:*

I posted some errata that makes the various levels of Super Saiyan more powerful.  Simply put, there wasn't enough of a difference between the first three Super Saiyan levels, so I fixed it.  I updated all information in the main post to reflect the changes.


----------



## Glorfindel (Oct 3, 2002)

Oh so Then what would Vegetas stats be?
Will you update them, or would you like me to do it and post them a new?


----------



## Glorfindel (Oct 3, 2002)

Anubis, I have started with Goku now, are you shore he should be 110 mnk? his base speed is 310-320 feet and when he goes to Super Saiyan 3 it goes to 1240-1280 feet thats when he walks.
Although seeing it here it would be kinda cool =))


----------



## Anubis (Oct 4, 2002)

Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *Oh so Then what would Vegetas stats be?
> Will you update them, or would you like me to do it and post them a new?    *




Ah, you can go ahead and do it.  I have another update that goofs it up even further, making Vegeta invalid as he is.



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *Anubis, I have started with Goku now, are you shore he should be 110 mnk? his base speed is 310-320 feet and when he goes to Super Saiyan 3 it goes to 1240-1280 feet thats when he walks.
> Although seeing it here it would be kinda cool =)) *




 Wow!  But yeah, that would be right.


----------



## Anubis (Oct 4, 2002)

*Update - October 3, 2002:*

I posted some major errata.  The CR has been lowered to reflect Saiyans' actual power, and ECL has been powered along with it.  In addition, I had to change the prerequisites for the Saiyan Elite Epic Prestige Class.


----------



## Glorfindel (Oct 4, 2002)

Oki I will try to re-make him today if I don`t DM.
I`ll keep all feats and such only some stats change and ECL I guess.

Will try to make Goku after that.

I hope I can post him today


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## Glorfindel (Oct 4, 2002)

Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta: hp 3263; Init +44; Spd 180 ft.; AC 141 (touch 101, flat-footed 110); BAB 21 (+15 Epic); Atk +91/+88/+85/+82/+79/+76/+73/+70/+67/+64/+61/+58 melee (1d20+45, unarmed strike); SA Monk abilities, smite 2/day; SQ Power adaptation, monk abilities, damage reduction 150/+15, evasion, fortified body, fortified blood, wholeness of body (20), fortified soul, improved evasion, abundant step, mettle; SR 90; AL LE; SV Fort +112, Ref +114, Will +93; Str 70 (80), Dex 62 (82), Con 68 (78), Int 30, Wis 30, Cha 26.


This is the first draft, the ECL and CR issent changed but the rest I think is done right,his Super Saiyan 1 stats dosen`t change at all, and the only thing on Vegeta himself is that he gets more skill points.

Is this right Anubis?


----------



## Glorfindel (Oct 4, 2002)

Oki, I`m done with the new stats,, ehum well, Vegeta in his "natural" form and his Super Saiyan 1 form isen`t changed at all =) But his Super Saiyan 2 is.

Vegeta: Male Saiyan SjW20/SjE50; ECL 115, CR 44; Medium-Size Shapechanger; HD 8d8+20d8+50d10+1092+159; hp 1764; Init +24; Spd 60 ft.; AC 75 (touch 55, flat-footed 59); BAB 21 (+15 Epic); Atk +71/+68/+65/+62/+59 melee (1d20+25, unarmed strike); SA Monk abilities, smite 2/day; SQ Power adaptation, monk abilities, damage reduction 30/+6, evasion, fortified body, fortified blood, wholeness of body (20), fortified soul, improved evasion, abundant step, mettle; SR 50; AL LE; SV Fort +62, Ref +64, Will +48; Str 30 (40), Dex 22 (42), Con 28 (38), Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 6.

Skills and Feats: Balance 18 (+36), Bluff 19 (+17), Diplomacy 0 (+0), Intimidate 20 (+20), Jump 18 (+35), Knowledge (fighting) 51 (+51), Knowledge (ki) 51 (+51), Tumble 51 (+71); Saiyan's Toughness, Improved Initiative, Great Fortitude, Endurance, Energy Manipulation, Conceal Ki, Tail Weakness Immunity, Point Blank Shot, Penetrate Damage Reduction, Control Oozaru Form, Rapid Shot, Superior Initiative, Energy Ball, Iron Will, Epic Endurance, Ki Focus, Ki Blast, Energy Explosion, Manyshot, Epic Saiyan's Toughness, Detect Ki, Epic Fortitude, Greater Ki Focus, Improved Energy Ball, Epic Will, Epic Dodge, Great Smiting, Improved Ki Blast, Improved Energy Explosion, Toughness, Epic Energy Manipulation, Remain Conscious, Empower Ki, Improved Manyshot, Great Constitution, Epic Energy Ball, Great Wisdom, Epic Ki Blast, Great Constitution, Epic Energy Explosion, Great Dexterity, Enhance Ki, Improved Ki Strike, Epic Ki Focus, Improved Ki Strike, Dwarf’s Toughness.

Possessions: Vegeta’s Outfit (AC +20 armor, Save +5 resistance, Str +10 enhancement, Con +10 enhancement, “Haste” continuous; 8,170,000 gp cost), Gloves of Mighty Fists +10 (6,000,000 gp cost), Vegeta’s Boots (Dex +20 enhancement, Attack +10 luck, “Expeditious Retreat” continuous; 9,004,000 gp cost), Ring of Universal Elemental Immunity (2,160,000 gp cost), Ring of Protection +10 (2,000,000 gp cost). Total Wealth: 38,478,025 gp.

Super Saiyan Vegeta: hp 2755; Init +34; Spd 120 ft.; AC 116 (touch 86, flat-footed 90); BAB 21 (+15 Epic); Atk +81/+78/+75/+72/+69/+66/+63/+60/+57/+54/+51/+48 melee (1d20+35, unarmed strike); SA Monk abilities, smite 2/day; SQ Power adaptation, monk abilities, damage reduction 70/+7, evasion, fortified body, fortified blood, wholeness of body (20), fortified soul, improved evasion, abundant step, mettle; SR 70; AL LE; SV Fort +87, Ref +89, Will +68; Str 50 (60), Dex 42 (62), Con 48 (58), Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 16.

Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta: hp 3263; Init +44; Spd 180 ft.; AC 141 (touch 101, flat-footed 110); BAB 21 (+15 Epic); Atk +91/+88/+85/+82/+79/+76/+73/+70/+67/+64/+61/+58 melee (1d20+45, unarmed strike); SA Monk abilities, smite 2/day; SQ Power adaptation, monk abilities, damage reduction 150/+15, evasion, fortified body, fortified blood, wholeness of body (heal 140hp per day), fortified soul, improved evasion, abundant step, mettle; SR 90; AL LE; SV Fort +112, Ref +114, Will +93; Str 70 (80), Dex 62 (82), Con 68 (78), Int 30, Wis 30, Cha 26.
Death Door: 436

The Super Saiyan 3 and 4 stats is made when Vegeta is at lvl 100 (Saiyan Warrior 20/ Saiyan Elite 80). With a kinda meager feat selection, just wanted to pump him up =)
Note that Vegeta never attains the Super Saiyan 3 in the series and by Anubis estimation only reachs to lvl 80 (SaiW20/SaiE60) by the end of the GT series, I made the stats (with the rules writen by Anubis) for fun and for people who might want to use him in there games =)

Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta: hp 7123; Init +59; Spd 240 ft.; AC 201 (touch 141, flat-footed 150); BAB 21 (+30 Epic); Atk +126/+123/+120/+117/+114/+111/+108/+105/+102/+99/+96/+93 melee (1d20+45, unarmed strike); SA Monk abilities, smite 2/day; SQ Power adaptation, monk abilities, damage reduction 310/+31, evasion, fortified body, fortified blood, wholeness of body (heal 200hp per day), fortified soul, improved evasion, abundant step, mettle; SR 130; AL LE; SV Fort +194, Ref +184, Will +163; Str 110 (120), Dex 109 (119), Con 121 (131), Int 50, Wis 50, Cha 46.
Extra feats: Giant's Toughness, Dragon's Toughness, Epic Toughness, Improved Epic Toughness, Great ConstitutionX13. 17 feats in all
Death Door: 1480

Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta: hp 11973; Init +104; Spd 720 ft.; AC 261 (touch 211, flat-footed 230); BAB 21 (+30 Epic); Atk +171/+168/+165/+162/+159/+156/+153/+150/+147/+144/+141/+138 melee (1d20+105, unarmed strike); SA Monk abilities, smite 2/day; SQ Power adaptation, monk abilities, damage reduction 630/+63, evasion, fortified body, fortified blood, wholeness of body (heal 200hp per day), fortified soul, improved evasion, abundant step, mettle; SR 210; AL LE; SV Fort +318, Ref +314, Will +260; Str 190 (200), Dex 189 (209), Con 201 (211), Int 90, Wis 90, Cha 86.
Extra feats: Giant's Toughness, Dragon's Toughness, Epic Toughness, Improved Epic Toughness, Great ConstitutionX13. 17 feats in all
Death Door: 1800


----------



## Glorfindel (Oct 4, 2002)

Oh hehe I feelt kinda inspired and did stats for an alternative Brolly. ´These stat I made for a campaign I hope I will DM soon, in this "universe" Brolly is the Legendary Super Saiyan and is trying to destroy the Universe. I good Fusion between Goku and Vegeta as Veggeto or Gogeta would be an interesting fight against this brute =)

I haven`t decided on what items to give him so any suggestions is appriciated =)
And he have few feats cuz I`m lazy and well only wanted to pump him up and not make him invulnerable.
Oh and his skills will be posted soon to =)



Brolly: Male Saiyan SjW20/SjE50/Ftr180; ECL 425, CR ??; Medium-Size Shapechanger; HD 8d8+20d8+50d10+180d10+159+17500+240; hp 19161; Init +24; Spd 30 ft.; AC 95 (touch 75, flat-footed 79); BAB 21 (+105 Epic); Atk +141/+138/+135/+132/+129 melee (1d20+15, unarmed strike); SA Monk abilities, smite 2/day; SQ Power adaptation, monk abilities, damage reduction 30/+6, evasion, fortified body, fortified blood, wholeness of body (heal 500hp per day), Fast healing 81, fortified soul, improved evasion, abundant step, mettle; SR 260; AL CE; SV Fort +168, Ref +154, Will +139; Str 40, Dex 22, Con 150, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 13.
Saiyan's Toughness, Improved Initiative, Great Fortitude, Endurance, Energy Manipulation, Conceal Ki, Tail Weakness Immunity, Point Blank Shot, Penetrate Damage Reduction, Control Oozaru Form, Rapid Shot, Superior Initiative, Energy Ball, Iron Will, Epic Endurance, Ki Focus, Ki Blast, Energy Explosion, Manyshot, Epic Saiyan's Toughness, Detect Ki, Epic Fortitude, Greater Ki Focus, Improved Energy Ball, Epic Will, Epic Dodge, Great Smiting, Improved Ki Blast, Improved Energy Explosion, Toughness, Epic Energy Manipulation, Remain Conscious, Empower Ki, Improved Manyshot, Great Constitution, Epic Energy Ball, Great Wisdom, Epic Ki Blast, Great Constitution, Epic Energy Explosion, Great Dexterity, Enhance Ki, Improved Ki Strike, Epic Ki Focus, Improved Ki Strike, Dwarf’s Toughness.

New feats: Giant's Toughness, Dragon's Toughness, Epic Toughness, Improved Epic Toughness, Extendet Life Span, Fast healing, Perfect health, Skill focus (heal), Greater Skill focus (heal), Epic Skill focus (heal),Immortality, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Expertise, Whirlwind Attack, Improved Whirlwind Attack, Power Attack, Cleave, Greater Cleave (20)
Great Fortitude X80
Armor Skin X25
Fast Healing X26

Super Saiyan Brolly: hp 22923; Init +34; Spd 60 ft.; AC 136 (touch 116, flat-footed 120); BAB 21 (+105 Epic); Atk +151/+138/+135/+132/+129/+126/+123/+120/+117/+114/+111/108 melee (1d20+25, unarmed strike); SA Monk abilities, smite 2/day; SQ Power adaptation, monk abilities, damage reduction 70/+7, evasion, Fast healing 81, fortified body, fortified blood, wholeness of body (heal 500hp per day), fortified soul, improved evasion, abundant step, mettle; SR 280; AL CE; SV Fort +198, Ref +184, Will +168; Str 60, Dex 42, Con 170, Int 34, Wis 32, Cha 33.

Super Saiyan 2 Brolly: hp 25423; Init +44; Spd 60 ft.; AC 176 (touch 156, flat-footed 160); BAB 21 (+105 Epic); Atk +161/+148/+145/+142/+139/+136/+133/+130/+127/+124/+121/118 melee (1d20+35, unarmed strike); SA Monk abilities, smite 2/day; SQ Power adaptation, monk abilities, damage reduction 150/+15, evasion, Fast healing 81, fortified body, fortified blood, wholeness of body (heal 500hp per day), fortified soul, improved evasion, abundant step, mettle; SR 300; AL CE; SV Fort +228, Ref +214, Will +193; Str 80, Dex 62, Con 190, Int 44, Wis 42, Cha 43.

Super Saiyan 3 Brolly: hp 30423; Init +64; Spd 90 ft.; AC 206 (touch 186, flat-footed 190); BAB 21 (+105 Epic); Atk +181/+168/+165/+162/+159/+156/+153/+150/+147/+144/+141/138 melee (1d20+55, unarmed strike); SA Monk abilities, smite 2/day; SQ Power adaptation, monk abilities, damage reduction 310/+31, evasion, Fast healing 81, fortified body, fortified blood, wholeness of body (heal 500hp per day), fortified soul, improved evasion, abundant step, mettle; SR 340; AL CE; SV Fort +288, Ref +274, Will +233; Str 120, Dex 102, Con 230, Int 64, Wis 62, Cha 63.

Super Saiyan 4 Brolly: hp 40423; Init +64; Spd 120 ft.; AC 346 (touch 246, flat-footed 250); BAB 21 (+105 Epic); Atk +181/+168/+165/+162/+159/+156/+153/+150/+147/+144/+141/138 melee (1d20+95, unarmed strike); SA Monk abilities, smite 2/day; SQ Power adaptation, monk abilities, damage reduction 630/+63, evasion, Fast healing 81, fortified body, fortified blood, wholeness of body (heal 500hp per day), fortified soul, improved evasion, abundant step, mettle; SR 410; AL CE; SV Fort +408, Ref +394, Will +333; Str 200, Dex 182, Con 310, Int 104, Wis 102, Cha 103.


What do you think, I haven`t figured out his CR yet either =)


----------



## Anabstercorian (Oct 4, 2002)

Aside from my own opinion that at this point we have gone from the Epic to bordering on the silly, I have to ask - How did he get so gosh darn many attacks per round?  There's a natural maximum of four attacks per round...  Can Super Saiya-Jin really COMPLETELY negate that restriction?


----------



## Anubis (Oct 5, 2002)

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Aside from my own opinion that at this point we have gone from the Epic to bordering on the silly, I have to ask - How did he get so gosh darn many attacks per round?  There's a natural maximum of four attacks per round...  Can Super Saiya-Jin really COMPLETELY negate that restriction? *




Hey, at least UK's top deities will have some opposition in those who have attained Super Saiyan 4!

As to the number of attacks, yes, becoming a Super Saiyan TOTALLY negates the limit on the number of attacks.  It is, however,  still restricted by the total base attack bonus (counting epic attack bonuses).  Considering they can attack as monks, though, Super Saiyans have quite a few attacks.  They gain an extra attack every eight class levels.


----------



## Glorfindel (Oct 5, 2002)

Oh So then Brolly would have 22 more attacks on his profile?
Cool, and Evil =))
When I`m done with Gouk I`m going to create Veggeto


----------



## Anubis (Oct 5, 2002)

Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *Oh So then Brolly would have 22 more attacks on his profile?
> Cool, and Evil =))
> *




He would have 46 attacks total per round.  Nasty.  Your Brolly is roughly equal to a Time Lord, I'm guessing.

On another note, Brolly's Wholeness of Body should only do 40 per day.  It's twice his CLASS levels in the class that has the ability, not double the total character level.  Saiyan Warrior is the class with the ability, so it's twice his Saiyan Warrior Level.

On another note, I would almost say you should turn 80 of Brolly's fighter levels into Saiyan Warrior levels . . . Maybe . . .



			
				Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *
> When I`m done with Gouk I`m going to create Veggeto *




Vegeto or Gogeta?  Vegeta is technically more powerful.  Either which way, good luck!


----------



## Glorfindel (Oct 5, 2002)

Oh 46 attack per round? How do you figure that out?
Think of Brolly and the perfect 2 weapon fighting feat, 92 attacks per round hehe =))


Well I will do both Vegeto and Gogeta =)

I will try to make Goku tomorrow and I will put up the errated Brolly


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## Anubis (Oct 7, 2002)

Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *Oh 46 attack per round? How do you figure that out?
> Think of Brolly and the perfect 2 weapon fighting feat, 92 attacks per round hehe =))
> 
> 
> ...




Add the base attack bonus and epic bonus together and do attacks per round normally but without limits.  (Remember, for unarmed strike, it's every 3 instead of every 5.)

Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting requires weapons, you can't use it with unarmed strike.



I think that perhaps created characters need to go in another thread, so as not to clutter up the actual rules thread here.  Especially considering how big the posts have turned out about actual characters.


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## Glorfindel (Oct 7, 2002)

Oki, I will open another thread when I`m done with Goku, Gohan, Mirai Trunks, Vegeto and Gogeta.

I was thinking of putting Mirai Trunks as a 10 lvl fighter/10 lvl Blademaster (for fun) 10 lvl monk/20 lvl Saiyan warrior.

BUt for Gohan I have no ide of what lvl he should be, straight mnk that is..


----------



## Anubis (Oct 10, 2002)

Bump.  Update coming soon.


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## Anubis (Oct 12, 2002)

Bump.


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## Shains (Oct 15, 2002)

*Goku Vs. Gohan*

IIRC you stated something about "mystic" gohan being less powerful than someone of ssj3 status. I immediately felt the need (and want) to voice my opinion. I believe that mystic gohan was vastly more powerful than goku when he was in he ssj3 form. For a few obvious reasons, like the fact that goku says that gohan no longer needs my help after buu loses gotenks' power due to them unfusing. As well as the Dai-kaoshin stating gohan was of equivalent power of a ssj6! I will debate this further and would like to as well, though this is hardly the time or the place.

p.s. Does anyone have a dragonball message board site. After planetnamek closed down so long ago I've been left without one


----------



## Anubis (Oct 15, 2002)

*Re: Goku Vs. Gohan*



			
				Shains said:
			
		

> *IIRC you stated something about "mystic" gohan being less powerful than someone of ssj3 status. I immediately felt the need (and want) to voice my opinion. I believe that mystic gohan was vastly more powerful than goku when he was in he ssj3 form. For a few obvious reasons, like the fact that goku says that gohan no longer needs my help after buu loses gotenks' power due to them unfusing. As well as the Dai-kaoshin stating gohan was of equivalent power of a ssj6! I will debate this further and would like to as well, though this is hardly the time or the place.
> 
> p.s. Does anyone have a dragonball message board site. After planetnamek closed down so long ago I've been left without one   *




Ah, a fellow mourner of Planet Namek, eh?  I used to go there all the time, great site.  Try going to the following site, it's got a decent message board, although the site itself isn't near as good as Planet Namek was.  (Gotta go with what we can get, I suppose.)

http://www.shadowsofnamek.com/

Moving on . . . As for Mystic Super Saiyan, I'm only going on the information I have found elsewhere on the internet.

One site that does list Mystic Super Saiyan Gohan as being more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, however, also lists Super Buu as being more powerful than Kid Buu, which is just silly, as Kid Buu was THE most powerful incarnation, by the admission of all those involved.

A lot of other sites list Super Saiyan 3 Goku as actually being the third strongest being in the series behind Kid Buu and Super Saiyan Vegeto.

To be perfectly honest, I have NO IDEA what to believe on this issue, and opinions are very widely varied.  Actually, this is part of the reason I decided to exclude Mystic Super Saiyan in my conversion, along with all other "variable" forms.  I stuck to what could be pretty easily figured out.

On a side note, I am preparing to remove ALL Dragonball GT material from the conversion.  The primary reason for this is because there are quite a few rumors that Akira Toriyama may soon continue Dragonball.  (Others have said this refers ONLY to reprinting the old stuff, but there is much evidence to the contrary, and only time will tell what will actually happen.)  As such, because Akira Toriyama has not officially acknowleged GT as a legitimate part of the Dragonball universe, I will be removing the Super Saiyan 4 and Golden Oozaru conversions out of respect to his creation.

Anyway, that all from me for now.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 15, 2002)

Hi Anubis mate! 

Looks like:

Saiyan +5 ECL
Oozaru +11 ECL

You need two different ECLs/CRs since the Saiyan can't change form at will into its alter ego.

Perhaps the solution is to make it +6 ECL overall - since the Oozaru will be of limited effectiveness (1 in 10 days; 3 out of 30)?


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## Anubis (Oct 15, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi Anubis mate!
> 
> Looks like:
> 
> ...




Wow, only 5 or 6?  Even considering the monk abilities and power adaptation?

You did see this part, right?

"Monk Abilities (Ex): Saiyans attack as monks, using the monk's favorable number of attacks per round, as well as dealing damage as a monk of a level equal to the sum of the Saiyan's hit HD and levels. Saiyans also gain the benefits of the Improved Unarmed Strike Feat, as well as access to the monk's Flurry of Blows and Stunning Attack, and they gain the Stunning Fist feat for free. In addition to monk attack forms, Saiyans gain a bonus to their AC as monks of a level equal to the sum of the Saiyan's HD and levels, including a Wisdom bonus to AC whenever applicable."



As for Oozaru form, that indeed HAS given me A LOT of trouble.  In my campaign, a (NPC) Saiyan in Oozaru form was able to defeat a (PC) Quasi-deity Fighter 1, a (NPC) Sacred Fist 16, and a (NPC) Sorcerer 16 with ease.  Lots more power than the normal form, but with VERY limited usefulness.

Do you have any balanced ideas on how to judge CR and ECL given that situation?  Can you really give a creature two different CRs based on different forms?  This is what has confused me and why I asked for your help, but of course you have probably guessed that by now.  Really, I never thought that 60+ strength could tilt a battle so much!

By the way, thanks for checking this out and helping me with perfecting everything.  Do you have any ideas on how I could make the Saiyans CR/ECL 10?  That's what my goal has been, so that's what I'd like to make it.



Anyway, I just make sure everything is clear and that I triple-check everything.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 15, 2002)

Hi Anubis mate! 



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *Wow, only 5 or 6?  Even considering the monk abilities and power adaptation?
> 
> You did see this part, right?
> 
> "Monk Abilities (Ex): Saiyans attack as monks, using the monk's favorable number of attacks per round, as well as dealing damage as a monk of a level equal to the sum of the Saiyan's hit HD and levels. Saiyans also gain the benefits of the Improved Unarmed Strike Feat, as well as access to the monk's Flurry of Blows and Stunning Attack, and they gain the Stunning Fist feat for free. In addition to monk attack forms, Saiyans gain a bonus to their AC as monks of a level equal to the sum of the Saiyan's HD and levels, including a Wisdom bonus to AC whenever applicable."*




I may have initially glazed over that portion too quickly. 

Seemingly you could well just give them Monk Levels equal to their Hit Dice?

Its a difficult one to rate.

Maybe 6.5 (Saiyan) and 12 (Oozaru)



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *As for Oozaru form, that indeed HAS given me A LOT of trouble. *




I can imagine.



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *In my campaign, a (NPC) Saiyan in Oozaru form was able to defeat a (PC) Quasi-deity Fighter 1, a (NPC) Sacred Fist 16, and a (NPC) Sorcerer 16 with ease. *




How?

I must be missing something?



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *Do you have any balanced ideas on how to judge CR and ECL given that situation?
> 
> Can you really give a creature two different CRs based on different forms?*




I don't see why not - especially when the forms are unbalanced.

If anything Saiyan is a humanoid race inflicted with the lycanthropy of the Oozaru form.



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *This is what has confused me and why I asked for your help, but of course you have probably guessed that by now.  Really, I never thought that 60+ strength could tilt a battle so much!*




Are you sure the Oozaru is Colossal, if memory serves me correct I don't remember them being more than maybe Huge size; I could be wrong here - you know what my memory is like! 



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *By the way, thanks for checking this out and helping me with perfecting everything.  Do you have any ideas on how I could make the Saiyans CR/ECL 10?  That's what my goal has been, so that's what I'd like to make it. *




No problem mate - although you are the expert on all things DragonballZ.


----------



## Shains (Oct 15, 2002)

*Re: Re: Goku Vs. Gohan*



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Ah, a fellow mourner of Planet Namek, eh?  I used to go there all the time, great site.  Try going to the following site, it's got a decent message board, although the site itself isn't near as good as Planet Namek was.  (Gotta go with what we can get, I suppose.)
> 
> ...



*

Hmmm... You were at PN to? That's cool. thanks alot for the url I love debating issues liek these all over the place but when it closed I just bottled it all up inside. 

Now to the gohan vs. goku, Super buu IS acctually more powerful than kid buu (IMO, no one, save for Akira, is sure on that one) I mean super buu had the power of piccolo, goten, trunks, gohan, fat buu, and the origional skinny buu. Kid buu had...Kid buu. Also Goku HAD to fuse to smack around super buu, while kid buu didn't appear to be immensly stronger than SSj3 goku. Also the dai-kaoshin only said that kid buu was the strongest because that's the one that he was the strongest HE had seen. And don't foget when gohan had first shown off his power goku was amazed, all of this is from memory from the manga as iirc they haven't got to that episode on toonami (I just pray they don't butcher it).

Well considering this isn't the DBZ board I probably should debate this further there, so just to stay on D&D, Great work they run smooth everything looks pretty balanced, and again thanks for the url.*


----------



## Anubis (Oct 16, 2002)

Hmmm . . . Wow . . . That's a pretty low estimation . . .

UK, I don't suppose you could break it down with your ECL system for me, and/or point out where I am going wrong on the following listing?

Here is how I calculated everything:

8 Shapechanger HD = ECL +4
Monk Abilities = ECL +2
Oozaru Form = ECL +2
Power Adaptation = ECL +1
Tail Weakness = ECL -1
Ability Scores +22 = ECL +2

Anyway, that's how I came up with the original CR 10/ECL +10.  To explain . . . The Hit Dice are easily enough explained, of course.  I figured the Monk Abilities were worth AT LEAST two character levels considering they improve no matter what class the Saiyan takes.  As for the Oozaru Form, considering the limited usefulness, I rated it equal to the Monk Abilities.  Power Adaptaion and Tail Weakness balance each other any which way.  The Ability Scores are pretty darn high, which is why I gave it +2, because that is what a creature would get for getting that big of an increase in power, especially with the increases coming in Str and Con, the two most useful Ability Scores.

Anyway, lemme know where I'm going wrong, and lemme know if you want me to explain and of the powers of the Saiyan, if yoy have any questions.  Then break down your estimate for me so that I can adjust things accordingly.

Moving on . . .



quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Anubis 
In my campaign, a (NPC) Saiyan in Oozaru form was able to defeat a (PC) Quasi-deity Fighter 1, a (NPC) Sacred Fist 16, and a (NPC) Sorcerer 16 with ease. 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Anubis 
How?

I must be missing something?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, the PC was a Fighter1, a Quasi-deity with 8 Outsider HD, he was a two-weapon fighter with a Longsword +5 and a Short Sword +5 and roughly average stats.  (Average for a Quasi-deity, that is: 30/28/25/31/31/29.)  I think he had approximately 100 hit points.  The Sacred Fist was a multiclass Cleric6/Sacred Fist10, and the Sorcerer was a straight Sorcerer16.

The Oozaru in question, however, had over 200 hit points, and never did miss with an attack because the attack power was around +30 or more.  Each hit did nearly 50 points of damage, and he gets three attacks per round, so . . .

I will note for the record, however, that the player is NOT a min-maxer, but then again, players aren't SUPPOSED to min-max, so . . .

Anyway, that's how it happened.  Needless to say, it wasn't pretty.  The Oozaru could smash a Tarrasque pretty hard even, it really is an Epic monster.  Just a very limited Epic monster.

As for an Oozaru being Colossal, well . . . Those thigns are like King King size, pretty much as big as some smaller skyscrapers.  Maybe not as tall as Godzilla (Godzilla is 390 feet tall, or something like that.  My friend happens to be a Godzilla MANIAC, it drives me nuts, he thinks Godzilla is invincible, although I KNOW a Super Saiyan would smash Godzilla.), but easily as big as Tarrasque or a Great Wyrm.


----------



## Anubis (Oct 19, 2002)

Bump.


----------



## Anime Kidd (Oct 19, 2002)

Just quickly skimmed the saiyan stats and the thread, but I must say that you made them WAY to powerful, even for DBZ!  And here I thought that my own Saiyan and Super Saiyans stats were too powerful!  Anyways, I'll read the thread tonight and see how it looks.


----------



## Anubis (Oct 19, 2002)

Anime Kidd said:
			
		

> *Just quickly skimmed the saiyan stats and the thread, but I must say that you made them WAY to powerful, even for DBZ!  And here I thought that my own Saiyan and Super Saiyans stats were too powerful!  Anyways, I'll read the thread tonight and see how it looks. *




Indeed you should read it all the way through, although the main information is in the first post.

They are extremely powerful in D&D terms, although they pale in comparison to Dragonball statistics.

Take, for instance, the fact that Goku is three times more powerful than Master Roshi, the most powerful and skilled human martial artist in the world, at the BEGINNING of Dragonball Z.  Also take into consideration that Piccolo, with the same amount of power as Goku, was able to blow up the moon.  Heck, take into account the fact that Master Roshi himself blew up the moon during Dragonball with a third of that power!  Heck, Brolly came close to destroying the entire UNIVERSE, and he never made it past Super Saiyan!

I WEAKENED Saiyans for D&D in order to make them playable, although they are still quite powerful.  As I have said before, these things are primarily for Epic games, especially once you start using Super Saiyans.

In all honesty, I'm considering making them MORE powerful by giving them more hit dice, because as they are, they may not quite be CR 10.

So are they powerful?  You better believe it.  Overpowering?  If you're not ready for Epic games, then yes.  Too powerful even compared to Dragonball?  Hehehe, laughable, not a chance, considering what they do in the series.

Anyway, just take a look.  I think you'll find that their powers are severely reduced.


----------



## Mordane76 (Oct 19, 2002)

At the risk of sounding like a complete dullard, is there a website where these rules are posted, or are all the rules simply floating in these threads?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 19, 2002)

Hi Anubis mate! 



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *Hmmm . . . Wow . . . That's a pretty low estimation . . .
> 
> UK, I don't suppose you could break it down with your ECL system for me, and/or point out where I am going wrong on the following listing?
> 
> ...




Shapechanger (1/3) 8HD = +2
Monk = +2
Power Adaptation = +1/2
Tail Weakness = -1/2
Ability Scores = +2
Oozaru (ability scores) = +5.5



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *The Ability Scores are pretty darn high, which is why I gave it +2, because that is what a creature would get for getting that big of an increase in power, especially with the increases coming in Str and Con, the two most useful Ability Scores.*




I still think the ability score increases for the Oozaru form are a bit much. Maybe +40 STR; +20 CON; -10 DEX?



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *Anyway, lemme know where I'm going wrong, and lemme know if you want me to explain and of the powers of the Saiyan, if yoy have any questions.  Then break down your estimate for me so that I can adjust things accordingly.*




Are you sure the Oozaru are meant to be Colossal. Remember Colossal means that Medium Sized creatures will be smaller than its little finger! Is that the scale they presented in the cartoons?



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *Well, the PC was a Fighter1, a Quasi-deity with 8 Outsider HD, he was a two-weapon fighter with a Longsword +5 and a Short Sword +5 and roughly average stats.  (Average for a Quasi-deity, that is: 30/28/25/31/31/29.)  I think he had approximately 100 hit points.  The Sacred Fist was a multiclass Cleric6/Sacred Fist10, and the Sorcerer was a straight Sorcerer16.
> 
> The Oozaru in question, however, had over 200 hit points, and never did miss with an attack because the attack power was around +30 or more.  Each hit did nearly 50 points of damage, and he gets three attacks per round, so . . .
> 
> I will note for the record, however, that the player is NOT a min-maxer, but then again, players aren't SUPPOSED to min-max, so . . .*




The PCs should have been hasted and had all defensive options in effect. They also should have started with ranged attacks preferably flying.



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *Anyway, that's how it happened.  Needless to say, it wasn't pretty.  The Oozaru could smash a Tarrasque pretty hard even, it really is an Epic monster.  Just a very limited Epic monster.
> 
> As for an Oozaru being Colossal, well . . . Those thigns are like King King size, pretty much as big as some smaller skyscrapers.  Maybe not as tall as Godzilla (Godzilla is 390 feet tall, or something like that.  My friend happens to be a Godzilla MANIAC, it drives me nuts, he thinks Godzilla is invincible, although I KNOW a Super Saiyan would smash Godzilla.), but easily as big as Tarrasque or a Great Wyrm. *




...maybe one of the later Super-Saiyan incarnations could beat Godzilla. Or just destroy the planet Godzilla is on.


----------



## Anime Kidd (Oct 20, 2002)

I read the thread, but I may have skipped a few things. Readin' the board or 4am isn't really good.  I can see you have put forth many-an-hour on this and it is good, but too powerful for my tatses.  And when you keep saying "Saiyans are usable in nearly any campaign" I can't help but smile.

And now the Saiyans. Yeah I think they are way to powerful. 8 HD? I think they are tough, but thats a bit much. I was thinkin natural armor or damage resistance, similar to the barbarian ability. Whats with their bite attack? Im assuming its for Oozaru form. As for Oozaru, it should be Gargantuan, not Colossal, as they are about 40 ft. tall with 'monkey-power'. At least thats what on the net.

The Saiyan Warrior/Elite shouldn't be classes. The Saiyan Warrior class could be replaced with a ki-using martial artist class. The Saiyan Elite is more of a social thing, kinda like being a low-class noble.

I personally think that most of the characters in DBZ, saiyans included, gain the bulk of their powers from a class and only when they are 'powered up', by using their ki/power level. The power level is their reserve of energy and when its empty, they are exhausted. This could be presented in a pool of ki points or what not, maybe even taking subdual damage when using such powers, tiring them out faster. As your saiyans stand now, there is no way for them to become exhausted, like how Vegeta was when fighting Recoome, unless that happens at negative HPs.

As I was writing this post, I was looking over my DBZ conversion. I placed Saiyans at +8 ECL!  With Half-Saiyans ECL +5, 1/4 Saiyans ECL +3, and Nameks at +5. Though I do admit that I have never tested my conversion and just guessed at the ECLs.
My Oozaru form has about half the stat bonuses/penalties of yours: +20 Str, +10 Con, -10 Dex, and Int is dropped to 3.

Anyways, this thread is making me want to go through my own D20 DBZ again and make it into full-blown D20. *sigh* Another project to go along with all my the other project.


----------



## Anubis (Oct 20, 2002)

Mordane76 said:
			
		

> *
> At the risk of sounding like a complete dullard, is there a website where these rules are posted, or are all the rules simply floating in these threads?
> *




Everything is in the very first post of this topic.  I post all updates there, so you can always find the most current rules there.  I may eventually post this on a web site, however.  Maybe.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> Hi Anubis mate!
> *




Yo!



			
				Mordane76 said:
			
		

> *
> Shapechanger (1/3) 8HD = +2
> Monk = +2
> Power Adaptation = +1/2
> ...




Oh, you reduced the value of HD?  So what is the new system?

+1 ECL/2 Hit Dice (50%) for Dragons and Outsiders
+1 ECL/3 Hit Dice (33%) for Aberrations, Elementals, Fey, Giant, Humanoids, Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, Shapechangers, Undead (except for Skeletons and Zombies)
+1 ECL/4 Hit Dice (25%) for Animals, Beasts, Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Undead (Skeletons and Zombies), Vermin

I take it you reduced the values like so, bumping everything down one notch?

Anyway, as for the ability scores, I take it you're going with ECL +1/2 for each 5 points?

Thanks!  Looks like I may have it right after all!  I was just gonna add or take away HD to even it out to CR 10 anyway, but I'm glad to see that everything works out in the end.  Thanks for the help!



			
				Mordane76 said:
			
		

> *
> I still think the ability score increases for the Oozaru form are a bit much. Maybe +40 STR; +20 CON; -10 DEX?
> *




Well, basically I gave it all the adjustments for increasing in size from Medium-Size to Colossal, then gave it an additional Str+8, Con+4, Int-4, Wis-4, Cha-4.  Basically I gave it beast intelligence and stuff and what would be one extra size increase.

As for it being accurate, well, an Oozaru can knock over buildings with it's fist and step on thigns made of steel, so I'd say the numbers are pretty accurate, if not a little low!



			
				Mordane76 said:
			
		

> *
> Are you sure the Oozaru are meant to be Colossal. Remember Colossal means that Medium Sized creatures will be smaller than its little finger! Is that the scale they presented in the cartoons?
> *




I think you are overestimating Colossal here.  According to picture in the core books, a Medium-Size creature is about 1/16 the size of a Colossal creature.  To answer your question, though, an Oozaru can pick up a human as you or I would a can of soda.  A can of soda is more or less 1/16 our own size, so with an Oozaru at about 100 feet tall, it would be Colossal.



			
				Mordane76 said:
			
		

> *
> The PCs should have been hasted and had all defensive options in effect. They also should have started with ranged attacks preferably flying.
> *




You mean they would have been prepared?  By your standards, wouldn't that decrease the challenge of the encounter?  This one happened with neither side prepared.  In fact, the Saiyan in question was the fourth party member who happened to look at a full moon one night while in the Inn.  The other three booked it out of there fast, then tried to fight it, but failed miserably.  They had no time to prepare.

The Oozaru, of course, destroyed the entire town during the battle.  It wasn't pretty.  If a Saiyan and an Oozaru were seperate creatures, I'd give the Saiyan CR 8 and the Oozaru CR 24, no joke.



			
				Mordane76 said:
			
		

> *
> ...maybe one of the later Super-Saiyan incarnations could beat Godzilla. Or just destroy the planet Godzilla is on.
> *




Damn skippy!



			
				Anime Kidd said:
			
		

> *
> I read the thread, but I may have skipped a few things. Readin' the board or 4am isn't really good.  I can see you have put forth many-an-hour on this and it is good, but too powerful for my tatses.  And when you keep saying "Saiyans are usable in nearly any campaign" I can't help but smile.
> *




Well, when I made that statement, I assumed that MOST campaigns started at Level 1 and advanced into Epic levels.  I never realized how so many people despised Epic levels and avoided them like the plague.  I honestly don't understand that way of thinking myself, but you have a point on that note.



			
				Anime Kidd said:
			
		

> *
> And now the Saiyans. Yeah I think they are way to powerful. 8 HD? I think they are tough, but thats a bit much. I was thinkin natural armor or damage resistance, similar to the barbarian ability. Whats with their bite attack? Im assuming its for Oozaru form. As for Oozaru, it should be Gargantuan, not Colossal, as they are about 40 ft. tall with 'monkey-power'. At least thats what on the net.
> *




Well I wanted to avoid natural armor and damage reduction, simply because that's not how I see it working in Dragonball and Dragonball Z, with Goka and Gohan respectively.  They could take a lot of damage, even as kids.  The stats I present here are for adult Saiyans.

As for the Oozaru, I think those web sites are way off when they say the Oozaru is only 40 feet tall.  The Oozaru could step on humans and hold them in the palm of his hand (you see this during the Saiyan Saga), and that just wouldn't be possible at 40 feet tall.  If I were an Oozaru, those numbers would make a human 9 inches tall, which is too big to hold in the palm of my hand, squeeze, or step on the human.  Another good example is that I have 9 inch feet.  If I were a 40 foot Oozaru, the human would be the size of my foot.  When Vegeta steps on Goku, however, you can tell that the foot is much bigger than Goku, who is really big himself.  Then there is also the knocking over buildings bit.  Therefore, I concluded that an Oozau must be around 100 feet tall, and thus Colossal.



			
				Anime Kidd said:
			
		

> *
> The Saiyan Warrior/Elite shouldn't be classes. The Saiyan Warrior class could be replaced with a ki-using martial artist class. The Saiyan Elite is more of a social thing, kinda like being a low-class noble.
> *




I created these classes because Saiyans have their own special ways of training, and their own class seemed appropriate.  I know it is not 100% accurate to the series, but I needed a class that would lead to the powers of Raditz and Vegeta, which is the basis of the Saiyan Warrior (Raditz) and the Saiyan Elite (Vegeta).  Goku, by the way, I counted as a Monk.  Same with Gohan.  Trunks and Goten would be Fighters.

Anyway, that was my reasoning.  I wanted to give them their full Saiyan powers without making it part of race specifically.  It's for balance only, really.



			
				Anime Kidd said:
			
		

> *
> I personally think that most of the characters in DBZ, saiyans included, gain the bulk of their powers from a class and only when they are 'powered up', by using their ki/power level. The power level is their reserve of energy and when its empty, they are exhausted. This could be presented in a pool of ki points or what not, maybe even taking subdual damage when using such powers, tiring them out faster. As your saiyans stand now, there is no way for them to become exhausted, like how Vegeta was when fighting Recoome, unless that happens at negative HPs.
> *




Losing power is attributed to taking damage.  Using ki powers costs subdual damage, and once that exceeds your hp, you're unconscious.  Not as serious in a game with healing, but considering the insane prerequisites and the fact that everyone in Dragonball Z was already AT LEAST Level 20 or Level 30, I think I nailed it on the head with the feats I created.  You can find the full rules in my "Big Book of Feats" thread.  Heck, you MUST use those to use the Saiyans properly, to be honest.



			
				Anime Kidd said:
			
		

> *
> As I was writing this post, I was looking over my DBZ conversion. I placed Saiyans at +8 ECL!  With Half-Saiyans ECL +5, 1/4 Saiyans ECL +3, and Nameks at +5. Though I do admit that I have never tested my conversion and just guessed at the ECLs.
> My Oozaru form has about half the stat bonuses/penalties of yours: +20 Str, +10 Con, -10 Dex, and Int is dropped to 3.
> *




Well we're pretty close.  Mine is ECL +10, or CR 10.  As for the Oozaru stats, well . . . I merely gave the size increases to stats, that's all, plus a few extra points.  Considering they can knock down buildings effortlessly, I figured you'd need AT LEAST Str 60 for that, to do it as well as an Oozaru does at least.



			
				Anime Kidd said:
			
		

> *
> Anyways, this thread is making me want to go through my own D20 DBZ again and make it into full-blown D20. *sigh* Another project to go along with all my the other project.
> *




Inspirational!


----------



## Anubis (Oct 26, 2002)

*Update - October 26, 2002:*

HUGE UPDATE!  I posted tons of errata, and also removed all Dragonball GT material (Golden Oozaru, Super Saiyan 4) from the conversion because it is not officially sanctioned by Akira Toriyama, and I want Toriyama's Saiyans, not Toei's or FUNimation's.

I think may be the last really big update, as everything seems to be pretty much perfect at this point.  ENJOY!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 28, 2002)

Hi Anubis mate! 

I managed to catch an episode of DragonballZ earlier and during a flashback moment there was a fight between a character and an Oozaru. Seemingly they are at least Gargantuan; probably Colossal in size. 

So I defer to your superior DBZ knowledge. 

By the way, the channel was touting the 'Fusion Saga' - is that particularly good?


----------



## Anabstercorian (Oct 29, 2002)

*Screaming and stripping vegetation*

I was watching DBZ yesterday and I'm wondering, Anubis - Let's say I wanted to do that thing that the Saiyan's do when they bug out, scream until they get a hernia, and unleash this huge blast of wind/ki energy/noise that knocks everyone nearby flat on their ass and strips the vegetation from the ground.  Can I do that with your rules, or should I make up another feat for that, like Explosive Ki Shout?


----------



## Anubis (Oct 29, 2002)

*Re: Screaming and stripping vegetation*



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *I was watching DBZ yesterday and I'm wondering, Anubis - Let's say I wanted to do that thing that the Saiyan's do when they bug out, scream until they get a hernia, and unleash this huge blast of wind/ki energy/noise that knocks everyone nearby flat on their ass and strips the vegetation from the ground.  Can I do that with your rules, or should I make up another feat for that, like Explosive Ki Shout? *




Ah, energy shock.  I have yet to come up with any rules about it, mainly because the series never goes into detail about it AND because there seems to be no real definition of it.  Basically, they do it in the series whenever they feel like it.

JUst the same, Gotenks has a lot of energy attacks that would be difficult to emulate, especially the Cosmic Halo.

Some things simply don't convert very well, when the series doesn't define it in strict terms.  I probably will not add any such rules, although I may come up with something about energy shock.  MAYBE.


----------



## Anubis (Oct 30, 2002)

*Update - October 29, 2002:*

Posted some errata due to changes to my feats.  Hit points have changed because Saiyan's Toughness has changed, and Improved Stunning Fist was replaced by Damage Reduction Break because Saiyan's no longer automatically get the Stunning Fist feat.


----------



## Anubis (Nov 4, 2002)

Bump.


----------



## Anubis (Nov 11, 2002)

Bump.


----------



## Anubis (Nov 18, 2002)

Bump


----------



## Anubis (Dec 2, 2002)

BUMP!


----------



## sagetim (Jul 9, 2003)

in response to the one hoping that toonami didnt butcher dbz episodes, they did, they edited languange and violence levels, its sad really, becasue watching the episodes first subtitled i found them much better than the dubbed ones, even if some did sound a bit effeminate.......



if someone already made a rant about this, sory, i kinda skimmed the last of the 3rd page and have yet to read 4th.......

ohterwise, i would say that the saiyan race could stand alone with the monklike abilities and adaptation (the thing where they get the +1 str and con and the xp) and be an ecl of 4or so.....maybe just maybe less, probably more like 8 i am not sure....

in anycase i would like to say that this is the first post i have made on this site (b/c just got membership) and that i have been following this post for quite a while........

one thing on the vegeta str score of 30........
thats just wrong, a halfork lvl 20 could overpower him, (assuming starting with 18 base str) then add +2 for halforcishness, (20) 5 for the class lvls (25) and a +5 inherent bonus for the easily puchasable book of str (137000 gp, in dmg, not its real name, cant remember that......) and you have a lvl 20 character that would be equal to vegeta in natural strength, in adding magical enhanced str, look in DMG and ELH the things called 'guantlest of ogre power' help (+2 str) as does the belt of giant str (+6 str) (both in dmg) the epic version of the belt can grant anywhere from +8-+12 str, there are items for each ability score, gloves of dex, cloak of cha, periapt of wis (necklace) , headband of intellect, somethingie of con, gloves and blets of str, and it goes on
tho, if you want more powerful ones, that can be calculated (rules in ELH) seriously, if you ever wanted to enhance a character, just hord some gold and buy the equipment, or, if a spellcaster or whatnot, make it cheaper (at expense of XP) 

i could go on, but that would be a waste of space, as i am ranting......

in anycase, have a good day everyone and dont incur the stabbity revenge of blackmage (at nuklearpower.com )


----------



## sagetim (Jul 9, 2003)

just read the 4th page..........................


conclusion.......................

TOO MANY FRIKEN BUMPS!!!!!

now then, everyone have a happy and good day


----------



## sagetim (Jul 11, 2003)

Glorfindel said:
			
		

> *Oh hehe I feelt kinda inspired and did stats for an alternative Brolly. ´These stat I made for a campaign I hope I will DM soon, in this "universe" Brolly is the Legendary Super Saiyan and is trying to destroy the Universe. I good Fusion between Goku and Vegeta as Veggeto or Gogeta would be an interesting fight against this brute =)
> 
> I haven`t decided on what items to give him so any suggestions is appriciated =)
> And he have few feats cuz I`m lazy and well only wanted to pump him up and not make him invulnerable.
> ...





eeep


----------



## Anubis (Jul 12, 2003)

Heh, if you think that's cool, remember that's from the OLD rules.  I'm revising the Saiyan race for 3.5 and UK's CR/EL rules along with UK's Immortal's Handbook.  Stay tuned!


----------



## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Jul 12, 2003)

Estimating Sayan power level would be much easier if you decide on deific status of beings like Kaioshin(Greater Deity?) and Kaiosama( Lesser Deity?). 
 Anyway great piece of work Anubis, Lord Melkor is impressed and would be delighted to see how you envision Namekians and non Sayan villains, especially Freezer, Cell and Boo. Also how would you translate DBZ power level to d20 levels?


----------



## Anubis (Jul 13, 2003)

Melkor said:
			
		

> *Estimating Sayan power level would be much easier if you decide on deific status of beings like Kaioshin(Greater Deity?) and Kaiosama( Lesser Deity?).*




Well I have estimated Dai Kaioshin to be a Greater Deity, Kaioshin to be an Intermediate Deity, Dai Kaio to be a Lesser Deity, Kaio-Sama to be a Demigod, and Kami to be a Quasi-Deity.



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> *Anyway great piece of work Anubis, Lord Melkor is impressed and would be delighted to see how you envision Namekians and non Sayan villains, especially Freezer, Cell and Boo.*




Well, I never really had any plans to translate Namekians, Frieza, Cell, or Buu, but that could all eventually change.  I do know Buu would have the relative power level about three or four categories ABOVE Greater Deity, seeing as he likely could kill entire pantheons relatively easily and detroyed Kaioshins effortlessly, and his absorption powers are terribly powerful.  Kid Buu would likely be somwhere abound CR 5000, although I'll need the Immortal's Handbook itself before I can even begin to go there.



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> *Also how would you translate DBZ power level to d20 levels?*




You don't.  It's impossible to translate directly, as the Dragonball universe gains power far more quickly than people in D&D.  Krillin keeps up with Goku through most of Dragonball, and he is, remember, the most powerful Human in the universe at the beginning of Dragonball Z, yet his power level at that point is half Goku's at aounr 200.  So either they gain more power or Dragonball Humans are inherently far weaker (or power spread more thin, which is unlikely considering how often they are threatened and such and always in a state of war).  If you assume Krillin is Level 40 RIGHT THEN, then that's 5 power level PER LEVEL, making Goku around Level 80,000,000 at the end of Dragonball Z.  (Such an estimate is a guess, though, since power levels after the Frieza Saga were never official.)  As such, direct translation is impossible.  Believe me, I've tried.  (I once tried to translate Scouters into D&D and failed miserably to achieve the full effect.)

Anyway, the short answer is, of course, you don't.  The best we can do is make things relatively accurate to the best guess by making Saiyans extremely powerful near-epic beings about half as powerful as Leshay when born.  I'm still working on details, though.


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