# Has Anyone ever played a Doppelganger?



## questionmark (Apr 11, 2004)

I am playing a doppelganger in an upcomming campaing.  I will be starting at level 1.  I was thinking of going into mindspy.  Is anyone willing to share their doppelganger expiriences?

Thanks


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## Tessarael (Apr 11, 2004)

questionmark said:
			
		

> I am playing a doppelganger in an upcomming campaing.  I will be starting at level 1.  I was thinking of going into mindspy.  Is anyone willing to share their doppelganger experiences?




Doppelgangers have a significant ECL: +4 level adjustment and +4 for hit dice. That's pretty painful. Their supernatural abilities are great for a spy, but you're going to suck at everything else compared to characters that haven't just spent 4 levels on Alter Self and Detect Thoughts. You could do something similar with Sorcerer or Wizard and not have to suck up the 8 LA+HD.

Mindspy is the obvious class for a Doppelganger fighter character. I'd be interested to see what build you intend for your character. Just make sure you have high Charisma to take advantage of being a Mindspy. 

I dunno. Personally, I think their LA+HD is going to make them quite useless at everything except Bluff and Disguise, until they get a few character levels. Even then I would stop and think twice about it. Maybe if your DM is using Unearthed Arcana rules to later reduce the level adjustment it would be more worthwhile.


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## hong (Apr 11, 2004)

Yes, but that was my evil twin.


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## Will (Apr 11, 2004)

It's like a lot of LA types. Spellcasting is very tough to pull off, unless the caster focuses on personal effects.

A rogue works well because it doesn't require as much, but eh... having an average BAB and being behind the curve 4 levels is pretty damn rough.


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## Greywarden (Apr 11, 2004)

One of the players in my current campaign is running a teenage doppelganger with multiple personality disorder (He hasn't quite got the hang of impersonating someone while keeping their "personality" subordinated yet)... it's been fairly entertaining.


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## Turanil (Apr 11, 2004)

Yes! I played a doppleganger once!

However, it was back in 2e, and it wasn't really my character. It just happened once: in the campaign we played at that time, I eventually grew bored of my character (a fun loving halfling thief). As such, the DM proposed me to play a Doppelganger assassin. So, my PC halfling once decided to leave the group, and a Doppelganger assassin who had followed our group for some time took his place. As such, the players still believed I was the halfling.

The funny thing is, that I managed to play the Doppelganger as he couldn't know everything the halfling kenw (of course), saying some strange things, not recognizing some NPCs, etc.  Hey, the other players never figured out anything! I had even my new character sheet openly on the table. Besides me  was the player of the mage. This (evil) mage was paranoid and had cast detect spells of all sorts on all the PCs... except me!! He later told me that he couldn't possibly see a threat in a halfling.

Hence, as a Doppelganger I did wait three or four adventure, and then, there was a dificult fight. I saw it as my "chance", and attacked the players. I killed two. I failed against the third who was the evil mage, because he had stoneskin then teleported away. I will remember for a long time, how he laughed maniacally for at least half an hour...


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## Kemrain (Apr 11, 2004)

[Personal Opinion]

Game mechanics aside, a creature without permanant form, and that can read thoughts, will have a distinctly non-human outlook.  It will be a very alien creature, and may well have empathy problems, even though it can read thoughts.  It's just hard to accept others as 'as real and important as yourself' when you can read them like a book and confuse them with but a thought.  Manipulation and deciet are the standard, and honesty might be something quite akward. It is a very interesting character to play, and I hope you can overcome the level adjustment and have fun playing such a character.  You must keep in mind, the whole time you play, that this is *not* a human, and should never truely think like one. If it does, you've lost most of the charm, and might as well be playing a sorcerer.

[/Personal Opinion]

- Kemrain the Shifter.


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## Dwarf_Paladin (Apr 21, 2004)

well i think i will go mindspy from level nine to 13 then invisible blade from 14 to 18.  What you all think?

My stats are(36 pt point buy+2 to str,dex,int,char +4 wis)
str 12
dex 18
con 12
int 12
wis 20
char 18

I will get my feats at 3,6,9....(not sure what to pick)  

I will use daggers as my weapons.


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## Derulbaskul (Apr 21, 2004)

Dawnforge includes the doppelganger as a playable race balanced against the other races.


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## Silver Moon (Apr 21, 2004)

Kriskrafts and I once wrote a three-part RGPA convention game where one of the playing characters was a doppleganger.   He had settled down in a town for over a decade, assuming an original identity that was a composite of three different past personae.   Once scene early in part one involved a visiting wizard wearing a "Ring of True Sight" coming to town and identifying the character's race.  The town then went up in arms (with the full torches and pitchforks routine) wanting to kill this monster "who had replaced their friend".   It was up to the other PC's to rescue him from the angry mob, at which point he then bacame part of their adventuring team for the remainder of the story.


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## Tessarael (Apr 21, 2004)

Dwarf_Paladin said:
			
		

> My stats are(36 pt point buy+2 to str,dex,int,char +4 wis)
> str 12, dex 18, con 12, int 12, wis 20, char 18
> I will get my feats at 3,6,9....(not sure what to pick)




NB: Doppelganger gets +2 Con as well.

Ok, I'm seriously confused. You're looking at Mindspy and Invisible Blade. Your character is clearly melee oriented. 

Concentrate is not a class skill for Doppelgangers. That means at ECL 8 (4 HD + 4 LA), your max rank in Concentrate as a cross-class skill is 3.5. If you continue to take class levels with Concentrate being cross-classed, you won't be able to qualify for Mind Spy until 13 HD (i.e. 4 HD + 9 class levels) ... That's no good. You need to take at least one level in a class with Concentrate as a class skill: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer or Wizard.

There is no reason for taking such high Wisdom, unless you have levels in Cleric, Druid or Monk. I presume Monk, as you are melee oriented.

Ok ... Doppelganger/Monk 1 (ECL 9) is sufficient to qualify for Mindspy at level 10. Almost all your Monk skill points go into Concentration to qualify for Mindspy. And you get a nice hefty AC bonus from Wisdom. I still wouldn't go for Wisdom 20. Good Strength is important for a melee character. 

I'd go for base abilities of: 
STR 14 (6), DEX 14 (6), CON 14 (6), INT 10 (2), WIS 14 (6), CHA 16 (10). 

After racial modifiers, these are:
STR 16, DEX 16, CON 16, INT 12, WIS 18, CHA 18.
You really need the addition STR and CON to hold your own in combat.

You get your feats at HD 1, HD 3, HD 6, ... (i.e. two feats, then your next feat is at ECL 10 - after two class levels). 

So we're looking at at your Mind Spy build like:
Doppelganger/Monk 1/Mindspy 5
Get a +2 CHA item to get the extra anticipate bonuses as a Mindspy. That's the best you can do CHA 20, gives you +5 AC and +5 to attack at Mindspy level 5. At this stage, there is no reason to be using Daggers. Use twin Shortswords. Actually better still, use weapon and shield or a two-handed weapon.

Now you want Invisible Blade. Ok, this is when you switch to using Daggers. With Unfettered Defense, your INT bonus adds to AC. You're talking Doppelganger/Monk 1/Mindspy 5/Invisible Blade 5 (ECL 19) eventually ... well ok, by this stage you can easily afford a +6 INT bonus item, and you can have put 2 ability points into INT (or do this early if you wish).

You will have great AC. 

Your attack bonus will be +3 STR +4 Doppelganger +5 Minspy +5 Invisible Blade +5 from your Mindspy anticipate bonus. Compared to a warrior at that level, they will have a better STR, but you can feint well with Invisible Blade.

Your HP will be quite a bit worse than a warrior. You have 4d8+1d8+5d6+5d8+15*3.

Hrmmm. Seems like it will be a playable character at high levels. However, I think you will be very weak in combat for quite a while due to the level adjustment of Doppelganger causing you to lag behind the rest of the party.

Just my thoughts ...


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## ~Johnny~ (Apr 21, 2004)

Not to be a total dork, but I feel it's worth pointing out that the Eberron campaign setting will include a race of half-dopplegangers called Changelings. It's ECL 0, so you won't have the telepathy or the ability to _constantly_ alter yourself, but a few levels in illusionist or egoist will more than make up for that. 

Then again, I'm guessing you can't wait till June, so I may just be taunting you with this info.


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## TheAuldGrump (Apr 22, 2004)

And, if it is early days yet for the campaign, a look at the alternative system for ECLs in Unearthed Arcana might prove worthwhile.

And I don't know if Savage Species touches on the subject of doppelgangers, but a peek inside the covers might also be a good idea. 

I am sorry that the book came out so long after my campaign began, so many possibilites...

The Auld Grump, who would _love_ to play a doppelganger...


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## the Jester (Apr 22, 2004)

Hell yeah I played a doppleganger- Vatharath, his name was, and he was great fun!  A studly fighter in a 2e game in which you could play anything reasonably close to humanoid (we had crabmen, undead, kobolds, me, a faerie dragon, a gargoyle, a plasmoid, etc).

It was a good time- we were an evil party involved in Juiblex and the Slime-Mold Mafia... gawd but it was a fun game!  Clearly light-hearted as well (will never forget when our spelljamming vessel got attacked by another one that fired galeb duhr from its catapults....)


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## hunter1828 (Apr 22, 2004)

Way back in the first years of 2e one of my players was playing a human necromancer.  The necromancer got captured by the bad guy and replaced with a doppleganger and I allowed the player to continue to play, now as the doppleganger impersonating his character.  The doppleganger was with the party for several weeks and in the mean time I was running a side, solo game for the 'real' necromancer.  He managed to escape and make his way back to the party, bursting in while they were relaxing in the common room of a tavern many days travel down the road.

As I described the necromancer standing in the door way and another sitting at the table, one of the other players decided his character drew his sword and attacked the necromancer at teh table.  He rolled a natural 20 and I was using a variant of the MERP critical hit charts so the doppleganger's head went rolling.

Afterwards, the necromancers player looked at the fighter's player and said, "How did you know that was a doppleganger."  The fighter's player shrugged and said, "I didn't..."

Hunter


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## RangerWickett (Apr 22, 2004)

I had a fun session of doppelganger hijinks with my latest campaign.  The group knew there was something odd and psionic afoot, but they didn't realize quite what was up until two of the PCs headed off together to investigate something, then only one came back, and he managed to lure the group into a trap.

It was great, because two of the PCs had lots of secret stuff going on which caused me to take them aside and talk to them privately a lot.  It worked well for when I needed to tell them, "Okay, you're a doppelganger."  No one suspected until too late.


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## Setanta (Apr 22, 2004)

Derulbaskul said:
			
		

> Dawnforge includes the doppelganger as a playable race balanced against the other races.



I really that about the setting- it's got all these fun non-standard races that look like they're pretty balanced against the standard races. FFG does some good stuff. I also like the way they handle legendary PC's, as I've never liked the epic rules.


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## diaglo (Apr 22, 2004)

i had fun playing a PC who played like he was a doppleganger.   

the other players didn't know what to expect.

i kept passing scribble or blank notes to the DM just for kicks. or writing stuff on it like (smile or laugh or gasp)...


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## Dregan Varokin (Apr 22, 2004)

I Just Finished Makeing one for a 13 level game. 52 point Buy(Don't ask me why its his game), Unearthed Arcana - Vitality Wounds, Class AC Bounus, Armor DR, Etc.
Nuteral Nuteral Assasian
ECL 4, Monk 1, Rouge 6, Fighter 2
Str 16, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 20, Wis 18, Cha 20
BAB 9
Fort 13, Ref 15, Will 12
116 Skill Points
AC - 35, Touch - 29, Flatfooted 29, Uncanny Dodge
Feats:*Alertness,*Dodge,*Weapon Prof(Dagger),*Evaison,*Unarmed Strike,*Stunning Attack 1/day(dc 14 save), Friegned Weakness, Expert Tactition, Combat Reflexes, Expertise, Improved Trip.

Leveling Plan 7 Fighter Levels - 3 feats: Knockdown, Extra Stunning Attacks, Fient.

Special Abilities:Alter Self at Will, Detect Thoughts, Uncanny Dodgeon't Lose Dex Bonus & Can't be Flanked.

Magical Items: Ring of Mage Armor (+4 Ac),Ring of Shocking Blows (1d8+3 Elec Dmg per/hit), Ward Cestus with Ki Straps & Disruption built into it(+5 DC to Stunning Fist Save, DC 14 Fort Save Vs Undead or be Destroyed, When in ful defense +2 Deflection bounus to AC), Monks Belt(+1 Stunning Attack, 10 rounds per/day Haste), Winged Boots(2hrs/day Fly),Pariapt of Wound Closure(Heal at x2 spd, when you drop below 0 HP you automatically stabalize, you are immune to the "Wounding" weapon enhancement), Glamored Leather Armor or (Light)Fortification, Dagger(Sure Striking - the weapon acts as a weapon +5 for purposes of DR and Magical hitability, Ki Focused - Allows you to make Special Unarmed attacks through a weapon - i.e. Stunning attack, Pain Touch, Quivering Palm, Etc.) It all fits into Starting Gold.

Tactics: 
High Disgiuse(19), Bluff(26), Spot(18), Listen(15)
Avg Weapon Dmg:
Unarmed - (1d8+1d8+3+3+3d6)Normal UAA+Ring of Shocking+Str+Sneak Attack
4+(4+3)+3+(3+3+3)=23
Dagger - (1d4+3+3d6)Dagger+Str+Sneak Attack
2+3+(3+3+3)=14
Stunning Attack 2/day DC 19 Fort Save

Freigned Weakness: Allows you to make a Bluff Chk Vs their Sense Motive if you succeed you deny them their Dex Mod for the round and can sneak attack -  you can also take a -2 with a Tiny Weapon or a -6 with a small weapon on your bluff chk.

Detect Thoughts: To Know if they bought your Bluff.
Expert Tactition: Allows that any time someone in your threaened area is denied their dex mod, you get a partial action - to move or to attack the person without their dex mod.

Combat Reflexes: More than one AoO in a Round Equal to 1+Dex mod

At Level 15 or 4th Level Fighter you get a feat it is Knockdown.
Knockdown: Any time you deal 10 or more HP in DMG you get to make a Trip attempt as a free action.

Improved Trip: A trip provokes no AoO, and if Successful you get to make an immediate attack agaist them.

And if your in over your head.
Expertise: +5 to AC, -5 to Base Att
AC - 35+Full Defense(Tumble rank 5 bounus)+Ward Cestus Bonus+Expertise+Dodge
35+6+2+5+1=49 AC

Winged Boots to Run or Chase if need be

Monk Belt - Haste to hit hard and fast

Dagger - Incase they have a DR of #/+5

Stunning Attack - To Disable for a Round. DC Fortitude Save 19

Alter Self - To Get Close or Fade into the Crowd.

Glamored Armor - So you don't Stand out.
Fortified Armor - Just incase they Crit. 25% Resistance
Ring of Mage Armor - To Improve AC

Pariapt of Wound Closure - In case they do Crit or do alot of damage and to heal more quickly incase of getting out of town.

Granted thats HIGH POWERED stats and well more levels but there you go.
Dregan Varokin


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## the Jester (Apr 23, 2004)

Even though he was the party fighter, my doppleganger was a coward.  As he grew in power his cowardice was tempered with an insane arrogance.  He had a charisma of 3.

In the seven or so levels I played him, I think he adopted his natural form only once.  He always claimed to be the individual he was impersonating- I don't think the party ever even knew his real name!


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