# List of Broken Powers



## KarinsDad (Dec 29, 2010)

I was interested in putting together a list of powers which are generally considered broken, or at the minimum, overly bent. Not just potent, but more or less encounter breaking. The purpose of the list is so that myself and other DMs can determine if they want to house rule certain powers before they get introduced into their game and the DM gets sideswiped by them.

Spectral Assailants (Assassin Encounter 13, when combined with a zone that damages for each square moved through)

Astral Condemnation (Cleric Daily 1)
Moment of Glory (Cleric Daily 1)
Consecrated Ground (Cleric Daily 5)
Iron to Glass (Cleric Daily 5)
Cloak of Courage (Cleric Encounter 16)

Certain Justice (Champion of Order Encounter 11, Paladin)

Fountain of Flame (Wizard Daily 1)


Honorable Mentions:

Stirring Shout (Bard Daily 1)

Lightning Rush (Battlemind At Will 7)

Come and Get It (Fighter Encounter 7)

Protective Roots (Shaman Daily 2)


I'll start it off with two Cleric powers:

Level 1 Daily: Astral Condemnation. Range 5 Wisdom vs. Reflex, 3d6+Wis damage, plus an effect that lowers the damage of the target by 5+Cha until end of Cleric's next turn. Sustain the effect as a minor each round.

It's not too difficult with this to get -8 or -9 damage and take out a solo or potent elite encounter once per day at first level. It's equivalent to giving 8 or 9 damage resistance to every PC against the toughest creature in the fight for the encounter. If it were just a Cha reduction, then it would be ok. But at 5+Cha, it makes a solo almost impotent.


Level 16 Encounter: Cloak of Courage. Close Burst 2. All allies get temp hit points equal to their surge value. There is also a +4 Fear defense boost, but it is irrelevant.

Players use the Cloak of Courage immediately after a short rest and get a lot of temp hit points. For example, a 5 PC group gets 4 healing surges worth of temp hit points for every encounter. In a 5 encounter day, that's 20 healing surges worth of hit points. Compared to the exact same level Cure Critical Wounds which is 3 healing surges of healing, this is way overpowered. It should be a Daily instead of an Encounter (and if it were a Daily, players would consider using it for the Fear boost as well, not just the hit points). CCW for a given PC might give 75 to 100 hit points at mid-paragon. CoC can give 500 to 1000 free temp hit points per day.

And because the power gives so many free temp hit points, PCs have the potential of being in more encounters per day (7 encounters = 28 healing surges worth of free temp hit points).


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## Prestidigitalis (Dec 29, 2010)

Ouch.  Yeah, those two make a good start to any list.


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## sigfile (Dec 29, 2010)

Iron to Glass (Cleric 5).  Has a similar damage-reducing effect to Astral Condemnation but it lasts until the end of the encounter with no sustain requirement.  Solos (particularly the newer-style solos with multiple attacks) and swarms are virtually nullified.


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## MrMyth (Dec 29, 2010)

KarinsDad said:


> Level 16 Encounter: Cloak of Courage. Close Burst 2. All allies get temp hit points equal to their surge value. There is also a +4 Fear defense boost, but it is irrelevant.




Astral Condemnation is definitely busted. I think the issue with Cloak of Courage is the way the rules handle temporary hp. It is clearly intended as an in-combat power - it has a potent effect, due to needing to spend a Standard action on it and make sure everyone is clustered in a burst 2.

Except, as you note, your group uses it out of combat and the temps just stick around. There are some other similarly problematic powers. 

The way I tend to handle it is to simply have temps not last indefinitely like that. Like other buffs, they go away after 5 minutes, unless a power explicitly makes clear they are supposed to last longer. 

So something like Cloak of Courage becomes an in-combat power, and is suddenly much more reasonable. Still strong, but not quite as broken. PCs can still try and use it before going into a combat, but won't be quite as easy, and will risk losing the temps entirely if they misjudge the timing.


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## Pseudonym (Dec 29, 2010)

KarinsDad said:


> Astral Condemnation (Cleric Daily 1)




Wow. I'd not heard of that power before, but damn, that's crazy and I say that as an unrepentant min/maxer.


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## KarinsDad (Dec 29, 2010)

sigfile said:


> Iron to Glass (Cleric 5).  Has a similar damage-reducing effect to Astral Condemnation but it lasts until the end of the encounter with no sustain requirement.  Solos (particularly the newer-style solos with multiple attacks) and swarms are virtually nullified.




When we used to have a Cleric in the group, this was definitely the anti-solo power du jour.


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## KarinsDad (Dec 29, 2010)

MrMyth said:


> The way I tend to handle it is to simply have temps not last indefinitely like that. Like other buffs, they go away after 5 minutes, unless a power explicitly makes clear they are supposed to last longer.




I prefer making it a Daily power. That way, it has a similar effect as Cure Critical Wounds (which is also a Standard action Daily) and it is also used in combat.

Doing it as you suggest just means that in a few encounters per day, the PCs might lose the temp hit points (or they might race through empty rooms to find foes). It could still be 500 hit points in a day. That's still way too strong.


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## Destil (Dec 29, 2010)

Consecrated Ground. AKA: The PCs can't die.

Best fix is just not let it work on unconscious PCs. Making it actually grant regeneration may also be a good idea, as written they stack (this is less of an issue now that healer's lore doesn't apply).

Note: If nerfing this one I'd also throw the cleric a bone and let them move the zone when they take a move action to move, rather than make it a separate move. I'd keep the speed at 3, myself.


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## The Little Raven (Dec 29, 2010)

MrMyth said:


> Except, as you note, your group uses it out of combat and the temps just stick around. There are some other similarly problematic powers.




Temporary hit points last until you take a rest (short or extended). So, basically, each use of the power would last for an encounter at the most. If they avoid a rest in order to keep the temp hp, the cleric won't refresh the power.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Dec 29, 2010)

Destil said:


> Consecrated Ground. AKA: The PCs can't die.
> 
> Best fix is just not let it work on unconscious PCs. Making it actually grant regeneration may also be a good idea, as written they stack (this is less of an issue now that healer's lore doesn't apply).
> 
> Note: If nerfing this one I'd also throw the cleric a bone and let them move the zone when they take a move action to move, rather than make it a separate move. I'd keep the speed at 3, myself.




Making it actual regeneration definitely fixes it because regen doesn't work when you are dying. It isn't quite as extreme as Astral Condemnation either. There are ways team monster can mess with it. AC CAN also be dealt with, but only if you can stun the cleric and that is unlikely at the levels where 5+CHA damage reduction on one enemy is a win button (though honestly even at high levels it sure isn't bad). AC probably should drop the '5+' and just make it CHA bonus. Still quite effective, but not a total damage lockout at low levels, plus it at least requires a specific build to be worthwhile (albeit one most clerics seem to  take).

I'm with KD on CoC. It is a power of daily level potency, it should simply be a daily. Why mess around with trying to make odd rules exceptions that won't always reign it in? Even as a daily it is still an excellent power anyhow, so it should be a good fix.


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## twilsemail (Dec 29, 2010)

The Little Raven said:


> Temporary hit points last until you take a rest (short or extended). So, basically, each use of the power would last for an encounter at the most. If they avoid a rest in order to keep the temp hp, the cleric won't refresh the power.




The problem isn't the THP sticking around.  The problem is the lack of sacrifice to gain what ammounts to surgeless healing each combat for free.  A second after the end of a short rest, the Cleric uses the power (standard action... big whoop... we're not in combat) and those will stick around until the next combat, be it in the next room or 6 hours ride away.  It's a guaranteed HS's worth of ablative armor.


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## Pelenor (Dec 29, 2010)

twilsemail said:


> The problem isn't the THP sticking around.  The problem is the lack of sacrifice to gain what ammounts to surgeless healing each combat for free.  A second after the end of a short rest, the Cleric uses the power (standard action... big whoop... we're not in combat) and those will stick around until the next combat, be it in the next room or 6 hours ride away.  It's a guaranteed HS's worth of ablative armor.




I wonder if this is still true in light of the increased damage from MM3 and the latest damage errata?  If the new damage stacks up well enough against this it may not be an issue.  I haven't run the numbers to see though.


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## Dice4Hire (Dec 29, 2010)

Surges of free hp or thp are a factor no matter how much damage the baddies do. 

I agree that needs to be a daily.


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## radja (Dec 29, 2010)

I'd just rule that anything that is not strenuous activity triggers a short rest, so you better stay damn busy after getting THP.. normal travel is not strenuous activity, so triggers a short rest after 5 minutes..


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## AbdulAlhazred (Dec 30, 2010)

Pelenor said:


> I wonder if this is still true in light of the increased damage from MM3 and the latest damage errata?  If the new damage stacks up well enough against this it may not be an issue.  I haven't run the numbers to see though.




One surge for free per encounter is HUGE. The main issue is that a really hard encounter sure, the monsters can blow through that temphp pretty quick, but you're in little danger of suffering much or at all in more routine encounters. Often in an equal level encounter, even with the new damage numbers, maybe one or two party members take a surge or two of damage, or even less than one surge. If that is temphp the encounter was basically null and void, you can't attrition the PCs anymore, at least in terms of hit points. 

I think the result is the DM is going to start inventing all kinds of environmental effects that do damage, ways to knock off an HS, piddly traps designed to chip away the temphp, etc. I don't think that improves the game.


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## Aegeri (Dec 30, 2010)

Pelenor said:


> I wonder if this is still true in light of the increased damage from MM3 and the latest damage errata?  If the new damage stacks up well enough against this it may not be an issue.  I haven't run the numbers to see though.



Not too well actually. Wraiths can tear that party apart (new, good MV wraiths that is). The new Dragons will have no problem handling this - in fact it might be the perfect powers to survive a low level black dragon encounter (it packs serious heat!). Actually, I can't really think of a lot of MM3 creatures that won't do enough damage to get around these powers anymore. Before with joke damage? I can't agree more. But now? Something like Iron to Glass on a MV Owlbear helps you survive: Not auto-win the encounter.

The only one that is an issue would be the temp HP power. That's because as Abdul has said, it's basically getting a free surge every combat. Then again if the party is in fireball formation to use it - then the encounter starts - they're going to be relying on initiative or suffer terribly from artillery. Not to mention there are always solutions now, especially at epic (where you would think this would be most potent). Dracoliches and Klurichirs both negate healing (the dracolich prevents gaining of temp HP as well) and there are monsters that ignore temporary HP straight up.

Not to mention traps and undead that inflict straight surge damage. But to be honest, the more I think of it the more I don't mind the power. It can actually be very hard to get PCs to have a longer adventuring day - due to complete lack of surges on the front line characters part - than to make them last a few encounters. I honestly don't know how I'd react to that tactic without having played with it a few sessions. I think it could actually save me some effort. Every campaign I've run post-MM3 I've had to have ways for PCs to regain surges - often quite a lot of them at that.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Dec 30, 2010)

I think the problem I have with that reason Aegeri is that if having a surge's worth of temphp is that valuable then what about the parties that don't have access to that power? 

The other point was you cast it before combat, so there's no issue with 'fireball formation' or wasting a standard action, the thp is always there at the start of every fight, and there's no real incentive NOT to always use it that way. Again, if you're going to nerf that then why not just make it a daily and be done with it? I don't think the presence or lack of a single power should be having that large an impact on how every encounter plays out. It smacks of the problem with the original pre-errata BRV fighter. The DM could negate his advantages, but they were such huge advantages that basically every encounter was either built around foiling them or became trivial.


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## Aegeri (Dec 30, 2010)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> I think the problem I have with that reason Aegeri is that if having a surge's worth of temphp is that valuable then what about the parties that don't have access to that power?
> 
> The other point was you cast it before combat, so there's no issue with 'fireball formation' or wasting a standard action, the thp is always there at the start of every fight




Then you're attacked or run into trouble within 2 rounds (12 seconds) or so if it wearing off. Starting with a trap, skill challenge or similar that leads into a combat encounter. The power wears off and due to no short rest, the party cannot use it again and runs into trouble instantly. Alternatively, they need to bunch up and monsters that are invisible/hidden/lurking about jump them when they move together. A surprise round bombardment would deal a great amount of damage. I mean, it really isn't hard to deal with this simply through good encounter design, that to be completely frank I'm going to be doing _anyway_. I frequently like skill challenges and other difficulties before encounters. These can be up to 30 minutes in "real game time" in length - so there isn't going to be a short rest to recharge and keep spamming it during that anyway (Forcing the PCs to lose it before a combat anyway). That's not metagaming to spite the power, _I do this anyway_.



> Again, if you're going to nerf that then why not just make it a daily and be done with it?



I don't have to nerf it though. I'm actually not really that worried by it in the first place.



> I don't think the presence or lack of a single power should be having that large an impact on how every encounter plays out.



It really doesn't bother me because the damage monsters can do is ridiculous now. You can tear down a 250 HP Barbarian in a couple of rounds these days - not to mention brutalize the rest of the party while you're doing it. It's a pretty overpowered spell, but it doesn't bother me in the least because monster damage keeps up with it. They will, at most get maybe an extra encounter out of it and that depends if it even works.



> but they were such huge advantages that basically every encounter was either built around foiling them or became trivial.



The problem here - plus I actually know this from experience - is that it's only going to buffer the onslaught now. It won't trivialize any encounter, because creatures _hit hard enough_. The original BRV fighter was in his prime during a period where 1d8+9 was considered "epic" damage. I wonder how he would stack up now, probably pretty well actually.


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## The Human Target (Dec 30, 2010)

One of my players in running a pacifist cleric with both Astral Condemnation and Iron to Glass. 

Both are great against solos, good against elites, and not really anything special against anyone else. 

I think the ramped up damage for monsters makes them even less not broken than they were.


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## Zaran (Dec 30, 2010)

I actually think Luring Strike (Swordmage lvl 1 At-Will) is broken the other way.   Getting to shift 2 squares is no reason for it to be a (W) only power.

Another one power that is underpowered is Staggering Smite (Paladin Encounter lvl 3)  The first level Divine Pursuit is better than this power as it targets Fortitude instead of AC and the Paladin gets to shift next to the target after the push.

I am starting to think that we won't see these powers being fixed anytime soon.  I have an itching suspicion that WotC is no longer supporting anything that isn't Essentials.   Everything we have seen lately has either been wholly Essentials or just been giving lip service to the cClasses.


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## Mengu (Dec 30, 2010)

I think the line between good powers and broken powers is pretty thin. But here are a couple off the top of my head.

Moment of Glory (Cleric - Daily 1) - truly becomes an encounter of glory. It's just about a win button at low levels, and turns into merely a great power at higher levels, better than many level 5 and level 9 powers.

Certain Justice (Champion of Order - Encounter 11) - I think this is the ultimate elite/solo neutering power. Given it's an encounter power, and very accurate, it's IMO pretty broken.

I could list a number of single target multi-attack powers as broken (or at least bent), including twin strike, but in moderate amounts, these powers are actually fine. A twin striking ranger is fine, a fighter with rain of blows is fine, a barbarian with storm of blades is fine. A half-elf (or revenant) Barbarian|Fighter with all three, maybe needs to be moderated. Also in the presence of multi-attackers, buffing powers like Wrath of the Gods (Paladin Utility 6) or the War Chanter AP feature become rather potent.


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## NewJeffCT (Dec 30, 2010)

KarinsDad said:


> I was interested in putting together a list of powers which are generally considered broken, or at the minimum, overly bent. Not just potent, but more or less encounter breaking. The purpose of the list is so that myself and other DMs can determine if they want to house rule certain powers before they get introduced into their game and the DM gets sideswiped by them.
> 
> 
> Astral Condemnation (Cleric Daily 1)
> ...




Interesting - nobody in my group is playing a cleric.  The healer is the group shaman.  We had a bard before as well, but the guy playing the bard left the group due to a scheduling change...  the party had done pretty well healing wise with those two, but may suffer a bit now that the bard is gone.

However, the bard did have a daily that I thought was pretty powerful for a level 1 daily.  (I don't have the book with me at work, so I don't recall the name of it)  He designated one foe with the power (i.e., a solo or an elite/leader type) and every attack against that designated foe would heal the attacker 5 hit points.  From reading the power, it did not matter if the attack hit or missed or if it was melee or ranged.  It was just an attack.  At lower levels, it has basically negated a lot of the damage my big baddies have dished out...  however, I would not call it broken, as 5 hit points becomes pretty small once you clear level 5-6 or so.


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## Ryujin (Dec 30, 2010)

NewJeffCT said:


> Interesting - nobody in my group is playing a cleric.  The healer is the group shaman.  We had a bard before as well, but the guy playing the bard left the group due to a scheduling change...  the party had done pretty well healing wise with those two, but may suffer a bit now that the bard is gone.
> 
> However, the bard did have a daily that I thought was pretty powerful for a level 1 daily.  (I don't have the book with me at work, so I don't recall the name of it)  He designated one foe with the power (i.e., a solo or an elite/leader type) and every attack against that designated foe would heal the attacker 5 hit points.  From reading the power, it did not matter if the attack hit or missed or if it was melee or ranged.  It was just an attack.  At lower levels, it has basically negated a lot of the damage my big baddies have dished out...  however, I would not call it broken, as 5 hit points becomes pretty small once you clear level 5-6 or so.




I think that you're talking about Stirring Shout, which requires a hit and heals CHA mod worth of hp. The effect does persist until the end of the encounter though.


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## NewJeffCT (Dec 30, 2010)

Ryujin said:


> I think that you're talking about Stirring Shout, which requires a hit and heals CHA mod worth of hp. The effect does persist until the end of the encounter though.




thanks - I thought it was attack, but I stand corrected


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## Pelenor (Dec 30, 2010)

I just did a little looking in the compendium and it seems that temp hp disappear after a rest.  so if you use this before an encounter the power isn't available during and encounter (so you couldn't use it again) as you haven't rested to recharge it.  If you reset to recharge that power you don't have the temp hp until you use it during an encounter.   


An extra surge during an encounter doesn't seem a big deal to me.  My players seem to need it in the harder encounters and I have started using the damage rules for the new monster yet.  (Granted my players don't eek out every little tactical advantage in combat but they what I would say is above average).  Now that is just my experience and may or may not hold true for everyone.   I'm not the best tactics guy in the world but I do try to take maximum advantage of what the monsters can do so that my explain it.


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## Kelvor Ravenstar (Dec 30, 2010)

Okay, what about Fountain of Flame (Wizard Daily 1), 3d8 damage and creates a damaging zone that lasts until the end of the encounter. Now, I can deal with the damage and zone, but its ENEMIES ONLY damage! 
I run Encounters at my local FLGS, and anytime a Wizard busts out this daily the encounter goes from slightly challenging to ridiculously easy. I would prefer if this power was attacks Creatures in burst attack.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Dec 30, 2010)

Pelenor said:


> I just did a little looking in the compendium and it seems that temp hp disappear after a rest.  so if you use this before an encounter the power isn't available during and encounter (so you couldn't use it again) as you haven't rested to recharge it.  If you reset to recharge that power you don't have the temp hp until you use it during an encounter.




The drill is like this: The party starts out the day, cleric uses the power and grants THP, which now last until the end of the next encounter. Encounter, THP go away. Short Rest, power recharges. Cleric uses power again, granting the THP again. Wash rinse and repeat.

Now, there are some situations where this may not work, but in 95% of all cases the party will go into every encounter with a surge worth of THP. There is no time limit on THP except taking a rest dissipates them, but since it is an encounter power it always recharges when the THP go away. There would never ever be a need to use this power in combat and there is no rule stating that powers can't be used out of combat. The only situation that will foil it is one where the party doesn't or can't short rest after an encounter. These types of situations happen, but they are ALWAYS difficult spots to be in and equally reduce the effectiveness of all encounter powers.



> An extra surge during an encounter doesn't seem a big deal to me.  My players seem to need it in the harder encounters and I have started using the damage rules for the new monster yet.  (Granted my players don't eek out every little tactical advantage in combat but they what I would say is above average).  Now that is just my experience and may or may not hold true for everyone.   I'm not the best tactics guy in the world but I do try to take maximum advantage of what the monsters can do so that my explain it.




The issue is that having a surge worth of free THP is a huge advantage. Over the course of a normal adventuring day it will certainly reduce PC surge loss by a significant amount. In fact with the new higher damage it is actually a better power than it was before. With the old lower damage there was a pretty good chance the party would come through an encounter with less than say a surge worth of damage each. So the THP might on average only save you less than a surge per encounter per character, sometimes a lot less. But if you expect to be taking a surge worth of damage per character in most encounters then effectively the result is the party gets a free surge per character per encounter. This is FAR better than what you can expect from any of the other utility powers at the same level.



Kelvor Ravenstar said:


> Okay, what about Fountain of Flame (Wizard Daily 1), 3d8 damage and creates a damaging zone that lasts until the end of the encounter. Now, I can deal with the damage and zone, but its ENEMIES ONLY damage!
> I run Encounters at my local FLGS, and anytime a Wizard busts out this daily the encounter goes from slightly challenging to ridiculously easy. I would prefer if this power was attacks Creatures in burst attack.




Eh, I've never been a huge fan of 'enemies only' damage, especially for zones. That was what was wrong with the original version of GotG as well, and notice they did errata that. Party friendliness can be OK for low damage AoEs, it gives the character a way to avoid friendly fire at the cost of a bit of damage. When applied to zones though it just seems like tactical training wheels to me. Especially when the power in question does high damage. Seems kind of useless to complain about though, I think the design philosophy has basically shifted to "lets not make the players actually work out good tactics so they can use this stuff, lets just make it enemies only" which I think sucks. Dunno if that qualifies the power as bent or not, but if it is then there are quite a few other bent powers out there nowadays that are similar.


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## Ryujin (Dec 30, 2010)

NewJeffCT said:


> thanks - I thought it was attack, but I stand corrected




It's definitely a good power. I just couldn't pass it up for my Cunning Bard.


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## Destil (Dec 30, 2010)

Mengu said:


> Certain Justice (Champion of Order - Encounter 11) - I think this is the ultimate elite/solo neutering power. Given it's an encounter power, and very accurate, it's IMO pretty broken.



For what it's worth, Certain Justice is basically a paragon path feature hidden in a power. Not that is can't be overpowering...


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## Zaran (Dec 30, 2010)

Kelvor Ravenstar said:


> Okay, what about Fountain of Flame (Wizard Daily 1), 3d8 damage and creates a damaging zone that lasts until the end of the encounter. Now, I can deal with the damage and zone, but its ENEMIES ONLY damage!
> I run Encounters at my local FLGS, and anytime a Wizard busts out this daily the encounter goes from slightly challenging to ridiculously easy. I would prefer if this power was attacks Creatures in burst attack.




Yeah I hate this power.  It makes no sense for a zone of elemental fire to be able to select enemies over allies.  It goes against the idea that wizards have to watch out for friendly fire.


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## Wednesday Boy (Dec 30, 2010)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> ...the original version of GotG...




What is GotG?  ("Geturn of the Gedi"?)


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## Destil (Dec 30, 2010)

Wednesday Boy said:


> What is GotG?  ("Geturn of the Gedi"?)




Grasp of the Grave.


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## Puggins (Dec 30, 2010)

Moment of Glory trumps Astral Condemnation for general utility in a big way.

Send your 4-man level 3 party against 5 4th level orcs and astral condemnation will produce a modest advantage that will mitigate less than 20% of the damage against the party.  Moment of Glory, on the other hand, would push that encounter well into the trivial range.

Basically, moment of glory works as a win button in any daily mix of encounters (including against solos, where it mitigates a hefty percentage of the damage that astral condemnation does), while astral condemnation really only becomes way-powerful against sparsely supported solos and elites.


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## Dausuul (Dec 30, 2010)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> Eh, I've never been a huge fan of 'enemies only' damage, especially for zones. That was what was wrong with the original version of GotG as well, and notice they did errata that. Party friendliness can be OK for low damage AoEs, it gives the character a way to avoid friendly fire at the cost of a bit of damage. When applied to zones though it just seems like tactical training wheels to me. Especially when the power in question does high damage. Seems kind of useless to complain about though, I think the design philosophy has basically shifted to "lets not make the players actually work out good tactics so they can use this stuff, lets just make it enemies only" which I think sucks.




I like the approach where divine magic discriminates between friend and foe, while arcane magic doesn't. That seemed to be a theme at the start of 4E, but they may be drifting away from it.


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## Mapache (Dec 30, 2010)

Kelvor Ravenstar said:


> Okay, what about Fountain of Flame (Wizard Daily 1), 3d8 damage and creates a damaging zone that lasts until the end of the encounter. Now, I can deal with the damage and zone, but its ENEMIES ONLY damage!




Seriously?  It's a 3x3 non-movable zone.  Just stay out of it, or move through it once and suck up the flat five damage if you have to.  Flaming Sphere is way better because it's mobile and has a damage roll, even though it hits allies too.


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## Dice4Hire (Dec 30, 2010)

Zaran said:


> I actually think Luring Strike (Swordmage lvl 1 At-Will) is broken the other way.   Getting to shift 2 squares is no reason for it to be a (W) only power.
> 
> Another one power that is underpowered is Staggering Smite (Paladin Encounter lvl 3)  The first level Divine Pursuit is better than this power as it targets Fortitude instead of AC and the Paladin gets to shift next to the target after the push.
> 
> I am starting to think that we won't see these powers being fixed anytime soon.  I have an itching suspicion that WotC is no longer supporting anything that isn't Essentials.   Everything we have seen lately has either been wholly Essentials or just been giving lip service to the cClasses.




I have rarely seen WOTC bother to fix weak powers, and I am good with that. If it is weak, I jsut ignore it.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 30, 2010)

Chocolate Mousse loves enemy-only damage:

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Dec 31, 2010)

Dausuul said:


> I like the approach where divine magic discriminates between friend and foe, while arcane magic doesn't. That seemed to be a theme at the start of 4E, but they may be drifting away from it.




Yeah, that seems to be true. I guess with enough new powers getting tossed out there month by month it is inevitable that the lines will blur eventually. I think at this point even a wizard or sorc can pretty well find party friendly powers for most slots. They may not all be the best choices, but so it goes.


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## KarinsDad (Dec 31, 2010)

Zaran said:


> I actually think Luring Strike (Swordmage lvl 1 At-Will) is broken the other way.   Getting to shift 2 squares is no reason for it to be a (W) only power.
> 
> Another one power that is underpowered is Staggering Smite (Paladin Encounter lvl 3)  The first level Divine Pursuit is better than this power as it targets Fortitude instead of AC and the Paladin gets to shift next to the target after the push.




Nearly all first level At Will powers are the equivalent of a MBA or RBA plus some minor extra effect. Luring Strike is more or less identical to the Fighter's Footwork Lure.


And Staggering Strike is more likely to hit than the same level Call to Arms which requires 2 slightly easier hits to do 2W damage.

These are nowhere near underpowered powers. They're pretty average.

Are they the best powers at those levels? Probably not. But, they don't totally suck either.


Staggering Strike is less useful than Divine Pursuit, but I would opine that Divine Pursuit is a bit overpowered for its level, not that Staggering Strike is underpowered. I think it would be better if the levels of those two powers were switched, not that the powers themselves need any changing.

In other words, if WotC had not added Divine Pursuit to the game at all, nobody would be saying that Staggering Strike was underpowered.

One other thing to note is that Divine Pursuit was added in Divine Powers and Staggering Strike is from the PHB. WotC is notorious for adding bigger, better, badder powers in splat books. This is just a more egregious and noticeable example of it.


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## Pseudonym (Dec 31, 2010)

Mapache said:


> Seriously?  It's a 3x3 non-movable zone.  Just stay out of it, or move through it once and suck up the flat five damage if you have to.  Flaming Sphere is way better because it's mobile and has a damage roll, even though it hits allies too.




In and of itself, its nice but not an encounter breaker. The one time I recall it  coming close to that description was in an Encounters session when the zone was coupled with two knights using Hammer Hands to keep pushing people in to the zone, but that's more of a situational thing than a flaw in the power itself.


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## Mapache (Dec 31, 2010)

KarinsDad said:


> Nearly all first level At Will powers are the equivalent of a MBA or RBA plus some minor extra effect. Luring Strike is more or less identical to the Fighter's Footwork Lure.




Footwork Lure is pretty good.  The problem with Luring Strike is that it's _only_ [W], not [W]+Int.  For a typical Swordmage (Longsword and 20 Int), that means it's doing less than half the damage of any other weapon-based at-will at level one, which is pathetic.


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## Destil (Dec 31, 2010)

Mapache said:


> Seriously?  It's a 3x3 non-movable zone.  Just stay out of it, or move through it once and suck up the flat five damage if you have to.  Flaming Sphere is way better because it's mobile and has a damage roll, even though it hits allies too.




The problem with this one is that the wizard can drop it onto a melee, and the monsters eat the initial damage, the start their turn damage, and some AoO damage. And then, maybe, get away (not if there's a fighter involved).

Not necessarily broken, but _annoying _as hell.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Dec 31, 2010)

Destil said:


> The problem with this one is that the wizard can drop it onto a melee, and the monsters eat the initial damage, the start their turn damage, and some AoO damage. And then, maybe, get away (not if there's a fighter involved).
> 
> Not necessarily broken, but _annoying _as hell.




Which is exactly why I always had a dislike of party friendly zones. At least make them work at it a bit. When you can just sit in the middle of the zone and hold down the enemy, seems kind of cheap. When the PCs have to at least position themselves so they're outside of the zone themselves there are some real tactics involved. Maybe I'm just old fashioned...


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## Kelvor Ravenstar (Dec 31, 2010)

Pseudonym said:


> In and of itself, its nice but not an encounter breaker. The one time I recall it  coming close to that description was in an Encounters session when the zone was coupled with two knights using Hammer Hands to keep pushing people in to the zone, but that's more of a situational thing than a flaw in the power itself.




This almost exactly, or a wizard with beguiling strands. Players kept pushing into it, and the Encounters monsters aren't that tough in the latest season, at least until this chapter.


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## KarinsDad (Jan 1, 2011)

Mapache said:


> Footwork Lure is pretty good.  The problem with Luring Strike is that it's _only_ [W], not [W]+Int.  For a typical Swordmage (Longsword and 20 Int), that means it's doing less than half the damage of any other weapon-based at-will at level one, which is pathetic.




Got it. So, they replaced the +Int damage with an extra square shift that can be done before or after the attack.

This isn't necessarily pathetic with the proper teammates. For example, if the Swordmage can use the extra shift to set up flank for a Rogue.

But in a case where one only looks at the Swordmage and nothing else, yes it does seem weak trading Int damage for a shift.


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## Cormacolinde (Jan 1, 2011)

Yeah, Cloak of Courage is too strong as it is. My main problem with it was that it allowed sort of pre-healing without spending surges. So what I did was adding the "Healing" keyword, but making it cost a surge:

Effect: Each target can choose to spend a healing surge. If he does, he gains temporary hit points equal to his or her healing surge value. Until the end of your next turn, each target gains a +4 power bonus to all defenses against fear effects.

This makes it give a bit more temp hp than before, but it costs a surge, which I think is quite fair.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Jan 2, 2011)

Cormacolinde said:


> Yeah, Cloak of Courage is too strong as it is. My main problem with it was that it allowed sort of pre-healing without spending surges. So what I did was adding the "Healing" keyword, but making it cost a surge:
> 
> Effect: Each target can choose to spend a healing surge. If he does, he gains temporary hit points equal to his or her healing surge value. Until the end of your next turn, each target gains a +4 power bonus to all defenses against fear effects.
> 
> This makes it give a bit more temp hp than before, but it costs a surge, which I think is quite fair.




Seems like a good solution. If it isn't surgeless then it really isn't an issue and just turns into a nice mass healing effect.


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## Psikus (Jan 2, 2011)

Destil said:


> The problem with this one is that the wizard can drop it onto a melee, and the monsters eat the initial damage, the start their turn damage, and some AoO damage.




There is no start of turn damage. Unlike many other wizard dailies, Fountain of Flame deals its damage at the end of turn, giving enemies a chance to avoid it. Granted, it can still be comboed with a fighter or cavalier to punish enemies even if they flee, but I'd say it's a significant drawback.

It's a really cool power, and I really like it, but I don't think it matches the power of stuff like Flaming Sphere and other similar powers, which have movable areas and deal automatic damage each turn while getting to add all the bonuses to the damage roll, too. Its main advantage is the fact that it's party-friendly, which is uncommon for wizard spells, but that isn't enough to compensate for the difference in raw power, in my opinion.

I don't think that Stirring Shout is broken, either - I've seen it in action several times, including a few solo encounters, and found that it was very useful but it didn't trivialize the fight like some of the cleric dailies that have been mentioned. And outside of solo fights, it became even less of a problem.

I'll add a few broken powers of my own:
- *Come and Get It*  (Fighter, lv7). This one is broken out of sheer synergy with the features of its class. CaGI might be fair in the hands of a paladin, or just about any melee striker, but give it to a fighter and it defines an encounter like few other powers. It positions enemies exactly where you want with no attack roll, lets the fighter mark most of the opposing team at once, and combines absurdly well with allied area attacks. 

- *Dishearten* (Psion, lv1) and Mind Thrust (Psion, lv1). These are not as problematic when fighting and encounter as when building a psion, but they are still pretty broken in my book. They interact poorly with the power point progression, becoming easily spammable at higher levels and making it hard to justify taking any other power (regardless of level) instead of them. So several dozens of higher level psion at-wills become obsoleted because of them. And dishing out absurd penalties to attack or defenses every turn for a whole encounter, at higher levels, is way too strong to my taste.

- *Lightning Rush* (Battlemind, lv 7). This one is extremely versatile and potent, and also becomes way too effective at higher tiers where its augment cost is trivialized.

- *Brilliant Recovery* (Battlemind, lv 27). An unusual psionic attack, in that it's broken while unaugmented. As a minor action attack that is not restricted to 1/turn, it allows for some silly damage numbers if you are able to trigger it, to the point that it might be worthwhile to try to miss on purpose. On the other hand, it combines so well with Brutal Barrage (Battlemind, lv 13) that this is rarely necessary.


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## KarinsDad (Jan 2, 2011)

Psikus said:


> - *Lightning Rush* (Battlemind, lv 7). This one is extremely versatile and potent, and also becomes way too effective at higher tiers where its augment cost is trivialized.




Lightning Rush does have one drawback. It provokes Opportunity Attacks.

WotC should learn that to hit buffs and debuffs should almost always be +2 or -2 and almost never be +stat or -stat.

The advantages of +2 or -2 for to hit are that they are easy to remember, and the game rarely gets unbalanced that way.

Damage buffs and debuffs can be +stat or -stat, but they shouldn't typically be 5+stat (as per Astra Condemnation) or 10+stat.

A simple set of feat and power mega-rules on design day one limiting what could be done would have prevented a lot of the more egregious problems.


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## Ferghis (Jan 2, 2011)

Psikus said:


> *Come and Get It*  (Fighter, lv7). This one is broken out of sheer synergy with the features of its class. CaGI might be fair in the hands of a paladin, or just about any melee striker, but give it to a fighter and it defines an encounter like few other powers. It positions enemies exactly where you want with no attack roll, lets the fighter mark most of the opposing team at once, and combines absurdly well with allied area attacks.



Perhaps unfairly, I've come to see CaGi almost as a class feature. I completely agree that it is way beyond the acceptable power level at mid heroic, but what are the net effects? Your defender fulfills her or his tactical role. It doesn't heal or damage a ton. It doesn't inflict debilitating effects (all the targets can still attack the fighter). All it does is really just let the fighter do his or her job. This is nothing that even remotely breaks the game. 

I can see raising an eyebrow if a fighter can somehow use CaGi for doing more than that. I wince at stun-locking combos. But something that merely achieves the class role (even if to great effect) is not remotely broken, in my opinion. For example nobody has included high damage striker powers in this thread. That's because doing lots of damage is a striker's job. I won't get into surgeless healing (or its temp HP cousin) because it takes away from the point (and I agree that it's overpowered). But I think that for something to be game breaking you have to do something that's really beyond the acceptable. And occupying a few enemies for a few rounds is well within the accePtable range of things a fighter should be able to do.


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## KarinsDad (Jan 2, 2011)

Ferghis said:


> And occupying a few enemies for a few rounds is well within the accePtable range of things a fighter should be able to do.




The problem I have with Come And Get It is that it forces movement without any sort of a roll. That means that a 7th level Fighter can force Orcus to move automatically (not that he would want to do this).

There are a few abilities (like ones which decrease the amount of forced movement) that prevent this, but they are few and far between.

I would have no problem if Come And Get It required some type of Will roll to entice foes to come after the Fighter. But automatic forced movement shouldn't exist in the game system shy of some physical effect (like some form of telekinetic ability).


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## TarionzCousin (Jan 2, 2011)

KarinsDad said:


> Astral Condemnation (Cleric Daily 1)
> 
> Iron to Glass (Cleric Daily 5)



Why doesn't the Cleric in my group have these [-]useful[/-] broken powers?


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## Ferghis (Jan 2, 2011)

KarinsDad said:


> The problem I have with Come And Get It is that it forces movement without any sort of a roll. That means that a 7th level Fighter can force Orcus to move automatically (not that he would want to do this).



I agree that it's unjustifiably overpowered. There was a thread about CaGi a bit ago that amply proved this. I just don't think it's broken. Sure, it can work on Orcus, but so could (in complete non-combat terms) slitting his throat while he sleeps. My point is that even though everyone is subject to it, that doesn't break the game. There doesn't seem to be any real unfairness in a power that surrounds the defender with folks that want to kill him. That's why I was saying that it's almost a class feature. 

HAD TO CHANGE COMPUTERS-WILL EDIT POST TO FINALIZE IT.

As for the lack of a to hit roll to trigger the pulling effect, while I again agree that it is overpowered in abstract terms ("You can force anyone to move!"), in practice or play it's much less of an issue. A warden can create difficult terrain around him, preventing most from shifting. A swordmage can teleport to strike his marked opponent from almost anywhere in the battlefield. There are tons of effects that don't take a to-hit roll to activate. Personally, I'm much more troubled by the avenger's double roll power, but I'm told by smarter people than me that it's not overpowered. Back to the point at hand, it's a stunningly powerful power, and it's my fighter's go-to combo (along with shielded sides) as early as possible every encounter. But as the only defender in that party, it's the only way I can really do the job I'm supposed to do.

[size=-3]As if only missing only three times over the course of 5 levels could _not_ be overpowered. Envious grumble.[/size]


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## AbdulAlhazred (Jan 2, 2011)

Ferghis said:


> Perhaps unfairly, I've come to see CaGi almost as a class feature. I completely agree that it is way beyond the acceptable power level at mid heroic, but what are the net effects? Your defender fulfills her or his tactical role. It doesn't heal or damage a ton. It doesn't inflict debilitating effects (all the targets can still attack the fighter). All it does is really just let the fighter do his or her job. This is nothing that even remotely breaks the game.
> 
> I can see raising an eyebrow if a fighter can somehow use CaGi for doing more than that. I wince at stun-locking combos. But something that merely achieves the class role (even if to great effect) is not remotely broken, in my opinion. For example nobody has included high damage striker powers in this thread. That's because doing lots of damage is a striker's job. I won't get into surgeless healing (or its temp HP cousin) because it takes away from the point (and I agree that it's overpowered). But I think that for something to be game breaking you have to do something that's really beyond the acceptable. And occupying a few enemies for a few rounds is well within the accePtable range of things a fighter should be able to do.




CaGI + RoS + some static damage optimization can get kinda ugly, and can be combined with your various polearm lockdown build stuff in interesting ways. Still, I agree. 

Note too that CaGI has become MUCH more of a two-edged sword with monsters now having a lot more damage output. Sure, pull those couple of brutes and that soldier over to you, Joe Dwarf, go right ahead. Splat! Beatdown can be quick and nasty, to the point that actually using the power at all can be unwise in many situations.


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## GMforPowergamers (Jan 3, 2011)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> Note too that CaGI has become MUCH more of a two-edged sword with monsters now having a lot more damage output. Sure, pull those couple of brutes and that soldier over to you, Joe Dwarf, go right ahead. Splat! Beatdown can be quick and nasty, to the point that actually using the power at all can be unwise in many situations.




In the first 4e game I ran (orcus mods) we had a fighter with CaGI, and he held everything tight with it.  then last year we had a dwarf fighter that had it that was almost suicidal...

the damage boost makes a big diffrence, then again since more then once he pulled skimishers that get bonus damage with CA into postion to flank him...maybe poor tactics played a role.


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## Aegeri (Jan 3, 2011)

When the damage was increased last year, CaGI turned from an encounter ending power to one that just got the fighter almost instantly gibbed.


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## chitzk0i (Jan 3, 2011)

What annoys me about Consecrated Ground is that a Close Burst 1 that creates a moveable zone makes the rules cry.  Either the zone ends instantly, or it has no range limit.


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## Aulirophile (Jan 3, 2011)

chitzk0i said:


> What annoys me about Consecrated Ground is that a Close Burst 1 that creates a moveable zone makes the rules cry.  Either the zone ends instantly, or it has no range limit.



Or "Close Burst 1" is a range (it is, according to the PHB) and the Cleric must always remain in the zone or it ends at the end of his turn (Moveable Conjurations don't end instantly, they end at EoT if they are out of range). Also supported by the official FAQ on Spirit Companions (Close Burst 20). 

Also why the zone is relatively trivial to deal with. _Push the Cleric out of it and Immoblize him. _Done. Even just forcing him to provoke OAs to get back to the zone hurts. If the encounter is in such a close room that isn't possible, commend your Cleric on using a _daily _at the right time. 

Was sort of hoping this thread would be about powers that are actually broken (i.e., don't work, like Dazing Rebuke) as opposed to powers that are fun and actually useful just as they are. Ah well.


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## Psikus (Jan 3, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> When the damage was increased last year, CaGI turned from an encounter ending power to one that just got the fighter almost instantly gibbed.




That is an interesting point (I haven't seen CaGI in play since the damage boost), but it may be more of a sign of reckless strategies than a defect of the power. Since using forced movement is always optional, a player can choose to leave as many enemies as needed out of the power effect.

So you can still CaGI for 3-4 monsters, rather than 4-5 as before, if it is the optimal thing to do. Does that make the power less abusive, or just different? Intuitively, it would seem that the new artificial limit on the number of enemies to pull does weaken it, but I'd have to try it out.



Aulirophile said:


> Also why the zone is relatively trivial to deal with. _Push the Cleric out of it and Immoblize him. _Done. Even just forcing him to provoke OAs to get back to the zone hurts. If the encounter is in such a close room that isn't possible, commend your Cleric on using a _daily _at the right time. .




I think the minor detail of having a monster selection in the fight that can push (Bull Rush is usually a joke) AND immobilize is a far less common occurrence than you suggest.


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## Aulirophile (Jan 3, 2011)

Who said anything about bullrush? Enemy controllers have slides/pushes/pulls/fear effects. Solos basically always have them, especially these days. A four square push/slide/pull+a melee monster moving up next to the Cleric so it has to provoke an OA (minimum) to save the zone is hardly an unusual occurrence (bonus points, use a minion to grab the Cleric: Immobilize... at-will,  yeah, that is super rare, and against a Wis/Cha Cleric's weakest NAD). Unless for some strange reason as a DM you are building encounters with zero monster synergy and zero control (in which case any competent party will steamroll your encounters no matter what powers they pick, but that isn't the powers fault). 

People only think Consecrated Ground is "overpowered" (ugh) because they don't understand how fragile it is. Even in an original module like Thunderspire Labyrinth, that last fight against the Wizard it was a mixed-blessing. Sure, free healing, but you had to stay grouped up to use it and his AE's really hurt. And that was before the new damage expressions and monsters getting more battlefield control as the default. Now it is completely trivial for the DM to focus the Cleric and move him out of the zone with standard monsters. 

Even the new LFR module encounters make a joke out it. 

But whatever, I think Consecrated Ground is a decent daily if used in the right situation, and in tons of situations is trivially dealt with just by encounter design. Considering that fact, it should shine when used under the right circumstances.


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## KarinsDad (Jan 3, 2011)

Aulirophile said:


> Who said anything about bullrush? Enemy controllers have slides/pushes/pulls/fear effects. Solos basically always have them, especially these days. A four square push/slide/pull+a melee monster moving up next to the Cleric so it has to provoke an OA (minimum) to save the zone is hardly an unusual occurrence (bonus points, use a minion to grab the Cleric: Immobilize... at-will,  yeah, that is super rare, and against a Wis/Cha Cleric's weakest NAD). Unless for some strange reason as a DM you are building encounters with zero monster synergy and zero control (in which case any competent party will steamroll your encounters no matter what powers they pick, but that isn't the powers fault).
> 
> People only think Consecrated Ground is "overpowered" (ugh) because they don't understand how fragile it is.




This will only be an issue for a well designed party a few times. Then they will take abilities to work around it.

Clerics, especially strength Clerics, can easily get Athletics as a background or multiclass skill or even just picked up as a skill feat. Grab can also be defeated by a plethora of slide ally powers that now exist.

Teleport (ally or self) can also get a Cleric back into the zone before the end of his turn.

I think you are over-emphasizing the abilities of a small handful of monsters that do not show up in most encounters, and underestimating the abilities of a well designed group of PCs who will work to shore up any weaknesses that they perceive.

Sure, the DM can be a rat bastard DM and have multiple NPC ways to counter Consecrated Ground in every single encounter of n+2 or stronger when it might be used, but that's lame and illustrates the point of how potent Consecrated Ground actually is.


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## Nullzone (Jan 3, 2011)

Color me crazy, but at the very least RAI when looking at the Consecrated Ground text tells me the zone is perfectly capable of existing without the Cleric in it, as the text specifically says "You can move the *origin* square of the zone 3 squares with a move action" but doesn't mention the cleric himself moving at all (contrast to other powers where it specifically mentions you moving and dragging the zone with you).

Moreover, the Conjuration keyword is nowhere to be found on it, so I don't even think the movable conjuration law has ground to stand on.

 An immobilized cleric should have no problem moving the zone around (not  like he was using that action to begin with...), or sustaining it.  Even the flavor text indicates that it's a completely independent construct; the divine energy isn't radiating from the cleric specifically, and it "moves at his whim".


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## Aegeri (Jan 3, 2011)

KarinsDad said:


> Sure, the DM can be a rat bastard DM and have multiple NPC ways to counter Consecrated Ground in every single encounter of n+2 or stronger when it might be used, but that's lame and illustrates the point of how potent Consecrated Ground actually is.




It's not that great. Monsters with auras and zones of their own love it - dump it on the consecrated ground for great hilarity. One of my first** epic TPKs when I was playtesting the new damage with my IRL group was a party that bunched up in consecrated ground. My two AoE elite artillery tore them to absolute shreds and they never recovered. I almost TPKed an actual non-playtest party when they bunched up for consecrated ground as well.

Quite frankly, anything that makes you bunch up in a game where monsters with AoE powers - frequently encounter powers with +50%ish damage increase - is just suicide.

**In fact _the first_ epic tier TPK I ever got was arguably the direct result of this power and the PCs non-awareness of just how much damage the monsters gained. Also it's well worth noting that the changes to surgeless healing heavily nerfed this power into oblivion. The epic party above only wanted it as they were a pseudo-radiant mafia - unfortunately for them it backfired :O

Edit: Also I am confused why moving the cleric out of the zone does anything. The zone stays put and can be sustained, you don't have to be in it or anything. The burst just specifies the size of the zone and where it is created: Not the condition on the sustain. I am so confused as to where the rules argument he has to be in the zone comes from.


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## KarinsDad (Jan 3, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> Quite frankly, anything that makes you bunch up in a game where monsters with AoE powers - frequently encounter powers with +50%ish damage increase - is just suicide.




Consecrated Ground isn't for bunching up the PCs. PCs should never bunch up in it (although having 1 to 3 PCs in at at any time is probably ok).

It's for getting unconscious PCs conscious every single round and punishes NPCs for moving in a small bit as well.

It's also real good for healing the party half way up after the encounter without using any healing surges.

It's definitely a lot stronger at Heroic tier than at Epic tier though.


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## KarinsDad (Jan 3, 2011)

Nullzone said:


> Color me crazy, but at the very least RAI when looking at the Consecrated Ground text tells me the zone is perfectly capable of existing without the Cleric in it, as the text specifically says "You can move the *origin* square of the zone 3 squares with a move action" but doesn't mention the cleric himself moving at all (contrast to other powers where it specifically mentions you moving and dragging the zone with you).
> 
> Moreover, the Conjuration keyword is nowhere to be found on it, so I don't even think the movable conjuration law has ground to stand on.
> 
> An immobilized cleric should have no problem moving the zone around (not  like he was using that action to begin with...), or sustaining it.  Even the flavor text indicates that it's a completely independent construct; the divine energy isn't radiating from the cleric specifically, and it "moves at his whim".




The zone rules also specify that the zone must stay in range.


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## Nullzone (Jan 3, 2011)

Fair enough; I still say the wording makes the zone independent of the cleric in RAI, regardless of the fact that the power's range states close burst 1.  Poor choice in terms and/or a way to prevent the cleric from dropping the field from a safe distance, perhaps.

If the wording of the power indicated that the divine energy was radiating out from the cleric himself, then I'd be inclined to agree with the idea that the cleric has to remain the origin (and would probably just change it to an aura to prevent confusion >.>)


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## Aulirophile (Jan 4, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> Edit: Also I am confused why moving the cleric out of the zone does anything. The zone stays put and can be sustained, you don't have to be in it or anything. The burst just specifies the size of the zone and where it is created: Not the condition on the sustain. I am so confused as to where the rules argument he has to be in the zone comes from.





Nullzone said:


> Color me crazy, but at the very least RAI when  looking at the Consecrated Ground text tells me the zone is perfectly  capable of existing without the Cleric in it,



Moveable Zones end automatically if the Caster is not within Range of the  Power, using the Power's Range, at End of Turn. The Zone is a Moveable Zone, the Range is Burst 1. Therefore if the Cleric ends turn not  in the zone, it ends. PHB1/MM1/MM2 is where the rule shows up (I don't know why it is also in the MMs) This is a general rule for _all _Moveable Zones, which is why just looking at Consecrated Ground is unlikely to clue you in.


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## The Little Raven (Jan 4, 2011)

> http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/glossary.aspx?id=425
> 
> A movable zone ends at the end of its creator’s turn if the creator is not within range of at least 1 square of it (using the power’s range) *or if the creator doesn’t have line of effect to at least 1 square of it.*




A cleric does not need to remain within the zone of Consecrated Ground, so long as he has line of effect to at least one square of it.


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## Aulirophile (Jan 4, 2011)

The Little Raven said:


> A cleric does not need to remain within the zone of Consecrated Ground, so long as he has line of effect to at least one square of it.



You misread that. Though after a little research I guess they clarified this at some point with the following FAQ. So the Cleric can be one square away from the burst. *1. The Dragon Storm power has a zone that starts in a close burst 2, but can be moved.  How far can I move it?*You can move the zone 3 squares, and it ends if you end your turn more than 2 squares away from it.​


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## KarinsDad (Jan 4, 2011)

The Little Raven said:


> A cleric does not need to remain within the zone of Consecrated Ground, so long as he has line of effect to at least one square of it.




You misread that.

"A movable zone ends at the end of its creator’s turn if the creator is not within range of at least 1 square of it (using the power’s range) or if the creator doesn’t have line of effect to at least 1 square of it."

If the creator is not within range of at least 1 square of the zone, it ends.

If the creator doesn’t have line of effect to at least 1 square of the zone, it ends.

Either one of these will end it. If it were an AND instead of an OR, then both would be required to end it.


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## Aegeri (Jan 4, 2011)

Aulirophile said:


> You misread that. Though after a little research I guess they clarified this at some point with the following FAQ. So the Cleric can be one square away from the burst.*1. The Dragon Storm power has a zone that starts in a close burst 2, but can be moved.  How far can I move it?*You can move the zone 3 squares, and it ends if you end your turn more than 2 squares away from it.​




That is a *really good catch* and I completely didn't realize that! So it is much harder to use than I originally thought! Dragon Storm is basically a similar effect to consecrated ground and confirms for me that if the Cleric isn't at least 1 square away (or inside) the burst the effect ends. This makes it super vulnerable and *will* force the PCs to bunch up to use it.


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## KarinsDad (Jan 4, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> This makes it super vulnerable and *will* force the PCs to bunch up to use it.




All it does is force the Cleric to be in close.

But Clerics are already in close since the vast majority of their powers are either Ranged 5 or Melee Weapon.

If you have a PC that is not bloodied, the Cleric won't even bother to move the Consecrated Ground near that PC unless there is another reason to do so. The PCs do not need to bunch up in it since its ability to heal is not that strong. If they are in it, fine. If not, that's probably ok as well. It's more important for the Cleric to get Consecrated Ground on top of a seriously damaged PC (because s/he might be dying soon) or one that is dying. And, it's slightly important to get it around as many NPCs as possible. It doesn't really have to be around a bunch of PCs for it to do its job, just a few select PCs.

Offensively, Consecrated Ground is about as strong as Rain of Steel.

But it also automatically brings a dying PC conscious and it can sometimes be used at the end of the encounter to make all bloodied PCs non-bloodied (easily the equivalent of 3 to 6 healing surges of surgeless healing for those nasty encounters where it will be brought out). That's a lot more utility than the same level Rain of Steel.


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## Dausuul (Jan 4, 2011)

Aulirophile said:


> You misread that. Though after a little research I guess they clarified this at some point with the following FAQ. So the Cleric can be one square away from the burst. *1. The Dragon Storm power has a zone that starts in a close burst 2, but can be moved.  How far can I move it?*You can move the zone 3 squares, and it ends if you end your turn more than 2 squares away from it.​




So you don't have to be _in_ the zone, just close to it... meh. I'd be inclined to (house)rule that the range on a Close power is zero, and thus the requirement to be "in range" of at least one square means you have to be within the zone. That makes more sense conceptually and is easier to understand and apply. It also means Close Bursts are consistent with Area Bursts, since I'm pretty sure the intent is _not_ to treat "area burst 1 within 10" as having a range of 1.

IMO, if one is going to write rules that treat "range" as a numeric quantity, one should not then try to jam range and AoE into the same line in the statblock. Either make a separate line for "area" or put it into the "target" line. (Also, it's stupid to have a power type called "ranged" when other powers have ranges.)


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## Psikus (Jan 4, 2011)

Aulirophile said:


> Who said anything about bullrush?
> 
> (bonus points, use a minion to grab the Cleric: Immobilize... at-will,  yeah, that is super rare, and against a Wis/Cha Cleric's weakest NAD).




I brought up bullrush because it is the one method that all characters have to move enemies around - it's just that it's usually too weak to be considered an acceptable solution. This follows a similar line of reasoning to your mention of grabbing with minions... and suffers from similar problems: outside of dedicated grabbing powers, a grab tends to be a poor use of a standard action. 

By the way, I think you greatly overvalue the strategy of grabbing with minions. Though not insignificant, a grab is quite weaker than an immobilization, since the character has a chance to make a check to shift away. Not only that, but killing the minion (which usually takes little more than staring at it) will automatically end the grab. Having standard monsters do the grab would be far more reliable, though also more costly. 



Aulirophile said:


> People only think Consecrated Ground is "overpowered" (ugh) because they don't understand how fragile it is.
> 
> (...) Now it is completely trivial for the DM to focus the Cleric and move him out of the zone with standard monsters.




I'm afraid I must disagree about its fragility. I just don't see that many 4+ forced movement in monsters (as anything less is usually pointless since the zone can easily be moved 3 squares), and even then you're not guaranteed to kill the power, as the cleric will often be able to double move the zone, or provoke an opportunity attack, or shift+charge, or be moved back by an ally. This means the zone can be disrupted for a turn or two, but it won't easily end. Stuns and dominations are a much more real threat, as with most 'sustain minor' dailies, though feats like Superior Will provide reasonable protection against that.

Admittedly, I wasn't aware about the range rules for maintaining Consecrated Ground and powers like it, before this thread... and this is a point that has forced me to reevaluate these powers. It's just that I don't see it as such a big deal - just an inconvenience.


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## erleni (Jan 11, 2011)

Spectral Assailants (Assassin 13th level encounter power) is broken. Only DM fiat (i.e. putting a limit to the number of free actions you can take in a round) will stop this power from insta-killing monsters when coupled with damage areas. On WotCs Character Optimization forum there's a thread called the Handbook of Broken (it's also on the wiki there). I suggest taking a peek there for some more brokeness.


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## Dausuul (Jan 11, 2011)

erleni said:


> Spectral Assailants (Assassin 13th level encounter power) is broken. Only DM fiat (i.e. putting a limit to the number of free actions you can take in a round) will stop this power from insta-killing monsters when coupled with damage areas. On WotCs Character Optimization forum there's a thread called the Handbook of Broken (it's also on the wiki there). I suggest taking a peek there for some more brokeness.




I'm not clear how you can insta-kill a monster with this. Per the forced movement rules, you have the option to make a saving throw each time someone tries to force-move you into a hazardous square. If you make the save, you are prone but do not enter the hazard. So unless the monster rolls _really_ badly, you're not going to be able to nickel and dime it to death by bouncing it back and forth between hazard squares.


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## Aulirophile (Jan 11, 2011)

Dausuul said:


> I'm not clear how you can insta-kill a monster with this. Per the forced movement rules, you have the option to make a saving throw each time someone tries to force-move you into a hazardous square. If you make the save, you are prone but do not enter the hazard. So unless the monster rolls _really_ badly, you're not going to be able to nickel and dime it to death by bouncing it back and forth between hazard squares.



You only get a saving throw vs Hindering Terrain. Player created zones are not hindering terrain (unless they say they are, of course). Auto-damage zone does damage > slide one > does damage > slide one > does damage > slide one > does etc. 

The, correct, way of fixing this is to implement a rule that each creature can only take damage once per zone per turn (and rewrite the handful of powers it'd effect). This fixes most instances of iterative damage that suffer from this issue, barring I believe four which lack the zone keyword and would need to also be rewritten slightly (it was also the correct solution to the free action problem. One free action attack per source per turn, but alas).

*39. Are zones that deal damage (like the Wizard power Stinking Cloud) considered ‘hindering terrain’? Can I make a save to fall prone and avoid being forced into one?*No,  zones are not considered hindering terrain.  Hindering terrain refers  to more permanent features like pits, cliffs or pools of lava.​


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## Dausuul (Jan 11, 2011)

Aulirophile said:


> *39. Are zones that deal damage (like the Wizard power Stinking Cloud) considered ‘hindering terrain’? Can I make a save to fall prone and avoid being forced into one?*No,  zones are not considered hindering terrain.  Hindering terrain refers  to more permanent features like pits, cliffs or pools of lava.​




Huh, I didn't know that. Guess I've been using a house rule... though I'm not real clear on why there should be a distinction between a pool of lava that was already there and one that was created by a spell. In that case, yes, Spectral Assailants is broken as written, and applying a once-per-turn limit to either the "move on damage" effect or the "damage from a zone" effect is the obvious fix.

I'm tempted to junk the whole distinction and say anybody subjected to forced movement can take an immediate interrupt to end that movement, at the cost of falling prone if you're not already (and using up your immediate action for the round, of course).


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## Mapache (Jan 11, 2011)

Aulirophile said:


> You only get a saving throw vs Hindering Terrain. Player created zones are not hindering terrain (unless they say they are, of course). Auto-damage zone does damage > slide one > does damage > slide one > does damage > slide one > does etc.




Most damaging zones only do damage when you enter them, not when you keep moving through them, so you'd need some way to extend it to a slide 2 to go in-and-out or two adjacent damage zones to ping-pong between, but it's still abusable.  I agree that making damaging zones once per turn is a clean, simple fix to lots of egregious abuses, and makes sense to boot.  (Why is sliding someone along a wall of fire currently less dangerous than sliding them in and out repeatedly?)


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## TarionzCousin (Jan 12, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> When the damage was increased last year, CaGI turned from an encounter ending power to one that just got the fighter almost instantly gibbed.



CaGI Fighter 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 New Monsters


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## fumetti (Jan 16, 2011)

Dice4Hire said:


> Surges of free hp or thp are a factor no matter how much damage the baddies do.
> 
> I agree that needs to be a daily.




Surge is completely broken

My 5th level 4EE Knight has 53 hp.  He gets 143 FREE hp each day to throw away.  

He's not a PC.  He's a GOD.


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## Cyronax (Jan 18, 2011)

This is a good thread. I'm trying to read all of the points, but I had one comment. Why are all of the broken powers for Cleric?


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## Dausuul (Jan 18, 2011)

TarionzCousin said:


> CaGI Fighter
> 
> 
> 
> ...




One of these days I'm going to send a bunch of minions at my PCs that explode on death for automatic damage. Then I'm going to watch the fighter use Come and Get It, and laaaaaaaaaugh...


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## Aegeri (Jan 18, 2011)

Dausuul said:


> One of these days I'm going to send a bunch of minions at my PCs that explode on death for automatic damage. Then I'm going to watch the fighter use Come and Get It, and laaaaaaaaaugh...



I had fire archons that did that and best of all, they would deal damage based on the number of creatures that surrounded them.

Oh how hilarious that one come and get it ended up being.


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## erleni (Jan 18, 2011)

Cyronax said:


> This is a good thread. I'm trying to read all of the points, but I had one comment. Why are all of the broken powers for Cleric?




I'm not sure that all broken powers are for Cleric, but you have a good point here. My feeling is that, being HP the ultimate resource in D&D, powers that directly impact HP can easily become broken and the Cleric's powers often have an effect on HP.


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## Lord Ernie (Jan 18, 2011)

Cyronax said:


> This is a good thread. I'm trying to read all of the points, but I had one comment. Why are all of the broken powers for Cleric?



Because some people's definition of broken seems to be rather loose, and the cleric has a lot of 'strong but situational' powers that seem broken at first glance. That's my guess, at least.


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## NewJeffCT (Jan 18, 2011)

Cyronax said:


> This is a good thread. I'm trying to read all of the points, but I had one comment. Why are all of the broken powers for Cleric?




Clericzilla?

instead of CoDzilla?


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## Aegeri (Jan 18, 2011)

There are a few ridiculous Cleric powers, but I don't really see them being as powerful as some claim now. The point I feel is that monsters maths, damage and just their regular everyday powers have got to the point these dailies have a huge - but not game breaking - impact. Something that is 100% fine for a _daily_ power, especially at the heroic tier. They used to be absolutely 100% broken I agree (at every tier), but now they just aren't feeling like they have the teeth they used to. At low heroic they can be very swingy, but they (ironically) balance out very quickly by higher tiers. At most I think some powers like Moment of Glory could do with their levels increased.


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## twilsemail (Jan 18, 2011)

NewJeffCT said:


> Clericzilla?
> 
> instead of CoDzilla?




I would very much like to see a 4E Cleric attempt to solo an @level party sized encounter like CoDzilla could.


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## KarinsDad (Jan 18, 2011)

Lord Ernie said:


> Because some people's definition of broken seems to be rather loose, and the cleric has a lot of 'strong but situational' powers that seem broken at first glance. That's my guess, at least.




Yeah.

I can see where 24 or 28 free surges of temporary hits points per day at level 16 is a loose definition of the word broken and being used every encounter is situational.


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## Lord Ernie (Jan 18, 2011)

KarinsDad said:


> Yeah.
> 
> I can see where 24 or 28 free surges of temporary hits points per day at level 16 is a loose definition of the word broken and being used every encounter is situational.



You're talking about Cloak of Courage, I take it? I'll admit it's the closest to actually broken of the powers I've seen listed, but mostly because of the rules of how Temporary Hitpoints work, not because of the power itself. 

Making THP disappear after 5 minutes and/or simply disallowing this power outside of combat is an easy enough houserule; the power is perfectly balanced if it actually eats up an action in combat. In fact, I'm willing to bet that's how it was supposed to be balanced in the first place: the standard action is supposed to be the drawback.

So... yeah, that's one. Can you defend the others from 'situational, but strong'?


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## Mengu (Jan 18, 2011)

Brokenness of a power may also depend on campaign. I make it a point to tax my player's healing surges. So any power that hands out inordinate amounts of surgeless hit points (in the form of real healing or temporary hit points), to me feels broken, though I have no problem with a few of them in existence or even a few daily resources that recover healing surges. But in a game where PC surges are never taxed because you only ever play one or two encounters a day, the surgeless healing is probably not as much of an impact.

In some campaigns, Changeling Disguise is utterly broken. Again, I for instance won't allow that power in my current game. I've reskinned the Changeling as a Chameleon, taking out that at-will power and replacing it with a racial feature that allows them to make two rolls and use the higher for stealth checks to hide. In a dungeon crawl game, Changeling Disguise might not be broken at all, it might be down right worthless, and some would probably say my chameleon double roll for stealth to hide would be broken in their spy game.

Broken is a relative term to different people in different contexts.


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## KarinsDad (Jan 18, 2011)

Lord Ernie said:


> So... yeah, that's one. Can you defend the others from 'situational, but strong'?




It depends on what you define as situational. If you consider all Daily powers are situational because they are once per day, then how could one have a broken Daily power at all?


I ran a 4th level fight with a BBEG that did 2d8+5 damage, two attacks per round, if both attacks hit, then an additional 1d6+1 damage.

Astral Condemnation which works regardless of whether it hit that foe stopped 9 points of damage per damage roll.

So, instead of doing 14 average points of damage per attack and 32 average points if both hit, the BBEG was neutered down to 5 average points of damage and 10 average points if both hit.

That's one third. Yes, I consider neutering the BBEG to 1/3rd damage with a power that does not even require a to hit roll to be broken.

This isn't just strong. It's turning the BBEG into a Standard monster threat, just one with a lot of hit points. He's no longer a BBEG. At 4th level, that could be as much 100 hits points of the equivalent of free healing or ~8 healing surges.


Granted, there is the traditional workaround for this power. Stun the Cleric or knock him unconscious so that he cannot sustain it.


How would you as a player feel if your Striker started doing 1/3rd average damage automatically without a to hit roll? If the DM said "I'm sorry, the monster just nerfed your PC. And, there are several such monsters in this dungeon, so expect to have it cast on your again tomorrow.".

One definition of broken could be that any power if used on the PCs, would make them bitch and moan to the point that they might consider quitting. Another definition would be any single power that drops an N+3 encounter down to an N+1 encounter is broken.


If I'm in a dungeon, I expect to run into a potent Elite or Solo at some point in time. So, I don't consider this Daily to be situational either. I expect it to be used most days. That's pretty typical for a Daily and not situational at all.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Jan 18, 2011)

Yeah, it can be situational as to what is 'broken'. I think the reason clerics come up so often is they have the deepest skillset in terms of effecting the resource usage of the party, and the game is fundamentally a resource allocation problem at its core. Anything that can make a big difference there has a large effect on how the game goes. Defensive powers in general tend to run into the problematic, for the kinds of reasons KD brings up, if they debuff the enemy more than a moderate amount the overall impact is high. If the power works automatically then it creates a huge advantage whenever used. If it has to hit or whatever then it does the same thing but it is swingy. You can't really balance potency of a power vs how often it will work, this is just bad game design and always fails (and designers seem to be irresistibly drawn to make this mistake like lemmings).

Seems to me the game is going in the direction of being a bit more swingy though. Early PHB1 4e was hard into the 'no swinginess' thing (not that worked as planned, but the general design was based around that). Almost 3 years in we have increased damage outputs and thus more margin for rolls of the dice to swing things. So you will see a difference in what powers work well and why.


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## Cyronax (Jan 19, 2011)

I must be the first to admit that I can't crunch numbers relating to all the powers like all of you. For instance, I have a really hard time remembering all of the powers by name. When my players (I am usually a DM) want to ask me about a specific power or feat I usually require them to cite the sourcebook, level, and character class. Those citations are missing most of the time when I read threads on EN World and on the WotC boards (especially Char Op, which is fun to read sometimes).

Anyway, that all said, I have seen a fair bit of 4e in action.

As I read this thread, I tried to think about all I have seen as most broken in 4e. And yes, I've taken advantage of some of these elements, or at least let them appear in campaigns I DM. 

1) obviously low-level (early to mid heroic tier) cleric powers stand out as broken, because many people play(ed) clerics in the early days of 4e. It was only one of two leaders for an entire year. 

2) Adventurer's Vault (1) weapons. Why isn't there more sniping about these weapons? The Brutal quality is insane. I currently play a great weapon (mordenkrad) dwarf fighter (in our group's side campaign) who is power-gamed beyond my normal. I gave him one 'personality feat' and he has a really low Reflex, but the rest of him is taking pure advantage of the rules. He does damage like a striker and as I look at his stats, he seems to even be on par with some of the strikers in the Essentials (not the Rogue). 

3) The Essentials Magic Missile. Its awesome. Too awesome. I know there is a long thread elsewhere about this. 

4) Vehicle rules. Broken, but on the crap side of the scale. Adventurer's Vault 1 fails yet again. On their face the vehicle rules (especially the airship) seems elegant and simple, but it falls apart quickly. Its also not ideal for an adventuring group. 

5) Dispel Magic and its ilk. There are too few options for PCs and NPCs to end effects outside of the saving throw. I know that Dispel Magic was made into an encounter power through errata, but there is a screaming lack of something I miss from 3.5 --- COUNTERSPELL and other specific countermeasure and protective boons. 

6) Immediate Interrupts. In some cases its too many, too much. I find that certain builds with this quality just slow down the game to a crawl. This is probably one of my pet peeves, but I mention it. Consider it a small rant. 

C.I.D.


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## Mapache (Jan 19, 2011)

Cyronax said:


> 1) obviously low-level (early to mid heroic tier) cleric powers stand out as broken, because many people play(ed) clerics in the early days of 4e. It was only one of two leaders for an entire year.




A lot of low-level Cleric powers yield damage reduction which is proportionally huge at the point where you first get them.  Stuff like Moment of Glory completely nerfs enemies without directly winning the encounter or even speeding it up, so you get to see it operate for a long time, leading to feelings of hopeless ineffectiveness on the parts of the GM playing the enemies.  As you level up, it becomes more reasonable, and the change to higher-damage monsters has helped to bring these powers into line by reducing their relative effectiveness (e.g. resisting 5 of 10 damage is better than resisting 5 of 15 damage).



Cyronax said:


> 2) Adventurer's Vault (1) weapons. Why isn't there more sniping about these weapons? The Brutal quality is insane.




The only insane thing about it is how fiddly it is.  Rerolling is a really annoying way to implement having one more point of average damage (with slightly lower variance, including no increase to crits).  2d6 (avg 7) with Brutal 1 is 2d5+2 (avg 8) and 1d12 (avg 6.5) with Brutal 2 is 1d10+2 (avg 7.5). That's all there is to it.



Cyronax said:


> 3) The Essentials Magic Missile. Its awesome. Too awesome. I know there is a long thread elsewhere about this.




It's not awesome.  It starts out half-decent and quickly turns to garbage as you level because it falls behind options that scale properly.


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## NewJeffCT (Jan 19, 2011)

twilsemail said:


> I would very much like to see a 4E Cleric attempt to solo an @level party sized encounter like CoDzilla could.




Never had that problem in my long-running 3.5E campaign, and the cleric tended to be a focal point of the campaign, as her deity was an arch rival of the evil deity the players were up against.  I guess we did something wrong.


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## BobTheNob (Jan 19, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> When the damage was increased last year, CaGI turned from an encounter ending power to one that just got the fighter almost instantly gibbed.



Really? Our fighter uses it still. tactic didnt change at all : use cagi and back it up with a strong defensive option

i.e. Has "Eyes in the back of your head", pops shielded sides or Second wind (or something else to give defence on a minor) and has plenty of options for DR.

Even with the damage increase in monsters, this power is still a center point of our parties fighters approach (he does try to be anything else, hes a tank through and through) and the best thing he has got for locking down a mass of enemies.

Even if he takes a crap load of damage in the process...better him than someone else!!!


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## Aegeri (Jan 19, 2011)

The fighter in my game was dealing with demons. If he used his second wind like that, he'd eat 2-3 free soul stealer attacks (most "leader" type demons like Mariliths, Balors, Molydeus tend to get that in my games), dealing +5 damage and with a +5 bonus to accuracy. Easily annihilating his surge HP and then leaving him unconscious (at worst) or well on his way to being gibbed on the creatures turn. Demons really are truly ridiculous by epic tier if you replace variable resistance with the options in the book :O


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## Cyronax (Jan 19, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> The fighter in my game was dealing with demons. If he used his second wind like that, he'd eat 2-3 free soul stealer attacks (most "leader" type demons like Mariliths, Balors, Molydeus tend to get that in my games), dealing +5 damage and with a +5 bonus to accuracy. Easily annihilating his surge HP and then leaving him unconscious (at worst) or well on his way to being gibbed on the creatures turn. Demons really are truly ridiculous by epic tier if you replace variable resistance with the options in the book :O




It sounds like you're breaking the rules. How can you have fun without the rules? Have you ever considered stifling your creativity and sticking to the game we all love? If you do that, I'm sure you and your group will find a better, less badwrongfun experience.

C.I.D.


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## Lord Ernie (Jan 19, 2011)

KarinsDad said:


> It depends on what you define as situational. If you consider all Daily powers are situational because they are once per day, then how could one have a broken Daily power at all?
> 
> I ran a 4th level fight with a BBEG that did 2d8+5 damage, two attacks per round, if both attacks hit, then an additional 1d6+1 damage.
> 
> ...



A few points here:

In an equal-level encounter, the Elite should be about 2/5th of the challenge, in a level+2 encounter (which, let's be honest, BBEG fights should be) it's less.
This power is specifically designed to use on elite's and solo's, seeing as its use on a standard issue monster is rather a bit of waste. That's exactly what it did - IMO, it worked as intended (yeah, it neutered your encounter, but more on that in a bit).
Given proper focus fire (and decent luck on the dice), the PC's should be able to destroy an equal-level elite in, say, 3-4 rounds? Let's make it 4. So that means your cleric neutered about 4 attacks from the big guy; very potent, yes, but that's what dailies are for in the first place.
Much like Moment of Glory, Astral Condemnation is a spell that starts out extremely potent and loses a lot its glory around Paragon level or so.
Unlike Moment of Glory, Astral Condemnation requires a Wis + Cha focus, which means our cleric has two weak NAD's, leaving him rather vulnerable.



KarinsDad said:


> Granted, there is the traditional workaround for this power. Stun the Cleric or knock him unconscious so that he cannot sustain it.



Bingo. If the cleric severely neuters the boss, team monster responds by pounding him into the ground. More savvy monsters (who know he's the healer) could go for dazing him and use his inability to heal to their advantage.




KarinsDad said:


> How would you as a player feel if your Striker started doing 1/3rd average damage automatically without a to hit roll? If the DM said "I'm sorry, the monster just nerfed your PC. And, there are several such monsters in this dungeon, so expect to have it cast on your again tomorrow.".
> 
> One definition of broken could be that any power if used on the PCs, would make them bitch and moan to the point that they might consider quitting. Another definition would be any single power that drops an N+3 encounter down to an N+1 encounter is broken.



My main concern when I DM is to entertain my players, and in combat, this usually means make them feel like the powerful heroes they are supposed to be. It's a totally different approach from actually being a player, when I'm not responsible for the enjoyment of others (well... not as much as when DM'ing).

This means my reaction to a power like Astral Condemnation is totally different depending on the hat I'm wearing. If I'm wearing my player hat, I would indeed call foul, probably be slightly annoyed, and try to encourage the team to do kill the offending monster as quickly as possible. If this happened every few encounters with all kinds of different monsters, I would indeed get upset, and feel the DM may have it out for my character.

However, if I'm wearing my DM hat, I would congratulate the player on a power well used, and to make up for the loss in tension for the Elite that encounter, compare the damage numbers it would have rolled, and then point out how much of a difference the cleric is making. After a few rounds of this, I would shift the focus of team monster to the cleric (and make it clear to the players that I'm doing this) and take every risk to go after him. This makes the cleric feel like he had a meaningful impact on the encounter (which he did), and turns Astral Condemnation from annoying to awesome.



KarinsDad said:


> If I'm in a dungeon, I expect to run into a potent Elite or Solo at some point in time. So, I don't consider this Daily to be situational either. I expect it to be used most days. That's pretty typical for a Daily and not situational at all.



Again, this is a daily power designed to screw over solo's and elite's. In your standard combat, it's overkill, and it's not really useful to save the party in a pinch outside of the solo/elite situation.

Maybe it's that I don't usually rely overly much on elite's (definitely not solo's), and I tend to use at least level+1 encounters if I do (which means the elite represents less of the actual challenge). Maybe it's that, as the DM, I only cheer if the players get to be entertained, whether they screw over my intended encounter or not. Regardless, I still see Astral Condemnation as 'situational, but strong'; unlike some dailies, it's a kind of daily that you only want a single one of, cause it's unlikely you'll run into more than a single Solo / Elite per day.



Cyronax said:


> 2) Adventurer's Vault (1) weapons. Why isn't there more sniping about these weapons? The Brutal quality is insane. I currently play a great weapon (mordenkrad) dwarf fighter (in our group's side campaign) who is power-gamed beyond my normal. I gave him one 'personality feat' and he has a really low Reflex, but the rest of him is taking pure advantage of the rules. He does damage like a striker and as I look at his stats, he seems to even be on par with some of the strikers in the Essentials (not the Rogue).



People don't complain much, because if you run the numbers, Brutal has not nearly as large an impact as it seems, and most of its impact comes on high [W] powers. Let me show you: 

A Maul does 2d6 damage, which is an average of 7 damage: 2 * ((1+6)/2 = 7); a Mordenkrad does 2d6 brutal 1. What this means is that instead of doing between 2 times between 1-6 damage, a MordenKrad does two times between 2-6 damage, which is 2 * ((2+6)/2), is 8 damage on average. So it's an increase of about 1 damage per [W].



Cyronax said:


> 3) The Essentials Magic Missile. Its awesome. Too awesome. I know there is a long thread elsewhere about this.



Actually, the lack of a damage roll severely neuters MM's damage potential, which is by design. As pointed out by Mapache, it starts out decent and quickly becomes useless.



Cyronax said:


> 5) Dispel Magic and its ilk. There are too few options for PCs and NPCs to end effects outside of the saving throw. I know that Dispel Magic was made into an encounter power through errata, but there is a screaming lack of something I miss from 3.5 --- COUNTERSPELL and other specific countermeasure and protective boons.



Counterspelling was pretty much a losing tactic in 3.5 as it was, and the old Dispel Magic is famous for the amounts of headaches it created through recalculation of all kinds of buffs and penalties.

Its replacement are using monsters that grant saving throws, and picking up on post-MM3 solo design, that gives them a much-needed and inherent resistance to status effects.



Cyronax said:


> 6) Immediate Interrupts. In some cases its too many, too much. I find that certain builds with this quality just slow down the game to a crawl. This is probably one of my pet peeves, but I mention it. Consider it a small rant.



This is mostly player-dependent, but yeah, having lots of Immediate Interrupts dramatically increases the amount of decision points in the game. With a quick-thinking player, this is not much of an issue, but it's generally not a good idea for people who need lots of time to make decisions.

Note that Immediate Interrupt attack powers that deal damage actually speed up combat, by decreasing the number of rounds needed to take down the enemy. They're actually one of the most effective ways to really frontload on damage - a good example is a properly built archer ranger, who can have nothing but Immediate Action encounter powers, which makes him very scary.


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## Psikus (Jan 19, 2011)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> I think the reason clerics come up so often is they have the deepest skillset in terms of effecting the resource usage of the party, and the game is fundamentally a resource allocation problem at its core. Anything that can make a big difference there has a large effect on how the game goes. Defensive powers in general tend to run into the problematic, for the kinds of reasons KD brings up, if they debuff the enemy more than a moderate amount the overall impact is high.




Another reason for having so many cleric posers in the black list is that overpowered defensive powers are less obvious targets for errata their offensive analogues. Stuff that deals too much damage are easy to spot for the errata team, but examples of nerfed defensive options are far more rare- only Battlerager fighter comes to mind. So it is not a matter of clerics being inherently stronger, but of them being better at dodging errata.

And this reminds me - a sorcerer's *Adamantine Echo* (daily 9) and *Platinum Scales* (daily utility 22) deserve a place of honor in the list of brokenness, as they make a character absurdly difficult to kill for a whole encounter.


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## KarinsDad (Jan 19, 2011)

Lord Ernie said:


> A few points here:
> 
> In an equal-level encounter, the Elite should be about 2/5th of the challenge, in a level+2 encounter (which, let's be honest, BBEG fights should be) it's less.
> This power is specifically designed to use on elite's and solo's, seeing as its use on a standard issue monster is rather a bit of waste. That's exactly what it did - IMO, it worked as intended (yeah, it neutered your encounter, but more on that in a bit).
> ...




In this particular encounter, the BBEG was a solo. So, it dropped a very high percentage of the encounter out the window (it was N+3, definitely dropped to at least N=1). That's just free XP for the taking with zero real risk.

Even if a given BBEG fight uses an Elite, it's still doing the equivalent of an auto-kill. The Elite is being turned into a Standard, hence, one monster equivalent instead of two. Again, pretty much free XP.

As for it using both Wis and Cha, this is true. This particular Cleric is fairly vulnerable for Fort and Reflex, but not all Clerics have to be that way. Starting stat of 16+2 Wis and 16 Cha would still prevent 8 damage and the Cleric could focus on other non-Cha stats for all future stat boosts.



Lord Ernie said:


> Bingo. If the cleric severely neuters the boss, team monster responds by pounding him into the ground. More savvy monsters (who know he's the healer) could go for dazing him and use his inability to heal to their advantage.




He should if he could.

We both know that this isn't going to happen 99% of the time.

The monster is neutered. The Defender and Controller have too many ways to prevent the monster from getting near the Cleric.

He isn't going to pound the Cleric into the ground at all and typically, the Cleric isn't going to use this power in round one unless he has a strong notion that the foe is a badass. One way to know this is that if the foe had a stunning type power, he often would have used it already. Even if the foe has a stunning power remaining, there's still the fact that the other PCs aren't going to let the foe anywhere near the Cleric.


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## bganon (Jan 20, 2011)

Maybe I'm misremembering how this works, but as a ranged 5 power, doesn't the cleric need to stay within 5 of the solo to keep it neutered when sustaining Astral Condemnation?  Or is this only necessary for conjurations?   

It seems like if I were a BBEG and some uppity bastard laid Astral Condemnation down on me, I'd just toss a few minions in the party's face (the extra xp cost is negligible), run off for a minute, and pop back in for a rematch.

I don't think the problem is so much with the power, as with lone solo monsters in general being susceptible to total shutdown with the right tactics.  I rather wish WOTC hadn't called them "solo" monsters, since IMO they should always, _always_ have some kind of terrain/minion/escape-and-regroup-plan backup (or MM3-style abilities to shrug stuff off).


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## Mapache (Jan 20, 2011)

bganon said:


> Maybe I'm misremembering how this works, but as a ranged 5 power, doesn't the cleric need to stay within 5 of the solo to keep it neutered when sustaining Astral Condemnation?  Or is this only necessary for conjurations?




Zones and Conjurations need to stay within range of the original power, but there's no such rule that effects in general end if you leave the range of the original power.


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## KarinsDad (Jan 21, 2011)

bganon said:


> I don't think the problem is so much with the power, as with lone solo monsters in general being susceptible to total shutdown with the right tactics.  I rather wish WOTC hadn't called them "solo" monsters, since IMO they should always, _always_ have some kind of terrain/minion/escape-and-regroup-plan backup (or MM3-style abilities to shrug stuff off).




I ignore the word solo. Solos are just tougher monsters that have to be accounted for in the encounter XP. In this fight, it was a solo and 2 elites. With the exception of an occasional loner type creature like many dragons (who should have traps and other escape plans), most of my solos are the BBEGs, the elites are just lieutenants, and solos and elites can be encountered with a bunch of their allies, not just minions. Doing it this way also lowers the level of the solos I throw at the PCs so that they can hit them easier and avoid grind.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Jan 21, 2011)

Yeah, frankly I am not all that up on even using solos. I WILL now and then, but given their large amount of hit points they are really mostly useful as very specific monsters. I use them when the monster is the focus of an adventure and defeating it is the big goal. I wouldn't and don't make anything a solo simply because it is a 'boss'. Most bosses are elite monsters, especially humanoid type ones. The dragon you are questing to kill and spend half of paragon tier going after? Yeah, he's a solo. The guildmaster of the thieves' guild? That guy is an elite. He may have great plot significance and be a significant opponent, but he's still just a normal guy in a fight. His significance is who he knows, what he can do, and the forces he commands. 

Of course this will vary a lot depending on your play style and such. A really optimized team of PCs may not find monsters less than solos stick around long enough to really impact the encounter enough.


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## fba827 (Jan 21, 2011)

KarinsDad said:


> I ignore the word solo.




Same; in my mind, when I see the word Solo, i replace it with "BBEG" or "Uber"

(/end thread tangent)


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## Dausuul (Jan 21, 2011)

I don't regard solos as something that I _have_ to use as singleton foes.. but I often _do_ use them that way, because there are a lot of monsters that I don't regard as "social." Dragons are a good example. I've always felt that a dragon should neither need nor want allies--it's just not how they roll. I don't want to have to pad my dragons out with minions or regular monsters to make them fit challenges for the party.


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## KarinsDad (Jan 21, 2011)

Lord Ernie said:


> So... yeah, that's one. Can you defend the others from 'situational, but strong'?




Ok, let's look at Moment of Glory.

The time to use it is in an N+2 or stronger encounter.

Average NPC damage at low level tends to be ~level+7.5 for single target attacks, ~level+5.5 for area attacks with the MM3 damage system.

Moment of Glory is a close burst 5, so it almost always targets every single PC and NPC in the party. And, it can knock foes down for some minor control. The only downside to it is that the Cleric has to maintain it, but that typically isn't a problem since the enemies tend not to do too much damage in return (yes, it can be negated with a Stun, but that's a bit rare at low level).

That changes the NPC damage to ~level+2.5 for single target attacks, ~level+0.5 for area attacks. In N+2 encounters, foes will tend to be in the level +1 to +3 range. So, 4.5 to 6.5 damage and 2.5 to 4.5 respectively for level 1 PCs.

That means that the Cleric stops almost 50% of single target damage and almost 60% of area target damage in an N+2 encounter. Just shy of 40% and 50% for an N+4 encounter.

That effectively doubles the number of PC attacks against the NPCs. It doesn't matter that it also doubles the number of rounds, this is the equivalent of doubling PC damage output because it takes twice as many attacks to knock a PC unconscious as without Moment of Glory.  Think of it as the equivalent of the Rogue doing 5 rounds of 40 points of damage (as opposed to the reality of it being 10 rounds of 20 points of damage). And because it is so effective, the PCs really do not have to use up a lot of action points and other Dailies that they normally might in a tough encounter.

And since it does this by preventing damage, it is the equivalent of saving a healing surge at low level for every 2 successful attacks against the PCs. So, in a long tough 10 round encounter where the PCs might get hit 20+ times (or more with area attacks), that's a saving of upwards of 10 healing surges (depending on when the Cleric casts it). Compare this to the 16th level Daily Cure Critical Wounds that saves 3 healing surges

And, it negates most low level Ongoing Damage completely. And at Paragon level, it is still pretty decent since effects like Ongoing Damage are even more common, even if it is 10 damage being lowered to 5. Granted, its potency drops by about 2% per level and it will only be stopping 20+% of all damage at low Paragon, but that's still not lame.


As for it being situational, it only has minimal frequency if the DM rarely throws a tough encounter at the PCs. In two of our campaigns, the Cleric used it nearly every single adventuring day of multiple encounters and every single time, it changed a tough encounter to just a lengthy one with virtually no real threat.


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## Lord Ernie (Jan 21, 2011)

KarinsDad said:


> In this particular encounter, the BBEG was a solo. So, it dropped a very high percentage of the encounter out the window (it was N+3, definitely dropped to at least N=1). That's just free XP for the taking with zero real risk.
> 
> Even if a given BBEG fight uses an Elite, it's still doing the equivalent of an auto-kill. The Elite is being turned into a Standard, hence, one monster equivalent instead of two. Again, pretty much free XP.



So we've got a level +2 fight here, where the monsters can't do anything but straight up damage? I tend to pack my hard fights with a good mix of stun, dominate, or dazing effects, in addition to some protection from save ends conditions. Solo's, especially, tend to be either very mobile, or heavily status inducing, along with some MM3-dose of effect-ending capabilities.



KarinsDad said:


> As for it using both Wis and Cha, this is true. This particular Cleric is fairly vulnerable for Fort and Reflex, but not all Clerics have to be that way. Starting stat of 16+2 Wis and 16 Cha would still prevent 8 damage and the Cleric could focus on other non-Cha stats for all future stat boosts.



True, but that means he's about 3-4 points behind to start with, and by the time those other stat boosts start counting in, the whole 'the cleric powers are broken' thing tends to go away. Seriously, 3 to 4 points of defense is nothing to sneeze at.



KarinsDad said:


> He should if he could.



Agreed.



KarinsDad said:


> We both know that this isn't going to happen 99% of the time.
> 
> The monster is neutered. The Defender and Controller have too many ways to prevent the monster from getting near the Cleric.
> 
> He isn't going to pound the Cleric into the ground at all and typically, the Cleric isn't going to use this power in round one unless he has a strong notion that the foe is a badass. One way to know this is that if the foe had a stunning type power, he often would have used it already. Even if the foe has a stunning power remaining, there's still the fact that the other PCs aren't going to let the foe anywhere near the Cleric.



Again, most of the solo's and elites I've used come with lots of area and burst attacks, and a good bit of status effects, so I haven't run into this particular problem.

Heh... you've actually given me food for thought. Now I'm interested to see how they hold up against an enemy that largely just deals heavy damage, instead of relying on status effects.



Dausuul said:


> I don't regard solos as something that I _have_ to use as singleton foes.. but I often _do_ use them that way, because there are a lot of monsters that I don't regard as "social." Dragons are a good example. I've always felt that a dragon should neither need nor want allies--it's just not how they roll. I don't want to have to pad my dragons out with minions or regular monsters to make them fit challenges for the party.



I admit it's not always an easy fit, but it can be worked in. Dragons, in particular, are extremely powerful, but also stereotypically vain, greedy, lazy, and powerhungry. A dragon at the head of a worshipping cult, a dragon as the leader or king of a nation,... there's usually a good way to give them minions.

Admittedly, if dragons are lonely predators that live and hunt alone, it's a mite trickier.



KarinsDad said:


> Ok, let's look at Moment of Glory.
> 
> <snip>



Apart from Moment of Glory being a Close Blast, not a Close Burst, which limits its range somewhat, this seems like a fair analysis. Our party was past level 5 by the time Divine Power was released, so I never encountered it at low level. The note on ongoing damage is a good one, too; even a few points of damage resistance make a lot of difference there.

From everything I hear, though, yes, it's very strong and can more or less end a low-level encounter if used correctly. In my experience, it doesn't scale quite as well as you're saying it does, though, what with increase in status effects and dramatic increase in monster damage in early Paragon, which make the effect both less pronounced and more difficult to sustain.

So yeah, on Moment of Glory I'm willing to hand it to you. Where Cloak of Courage is more of a playstyle/approach choice (much like stacking lots of temporary HP with an Artificer), and Astral Condemnation only really does its thing against Solo's/Elite's without good status effects and support, Moment of Glory beats both that type of encounter and mass enemies, and is overly strong at low level - the Shaman level 2 utility "Protective Roots" has a similar problem, and doesn't even require a Sustain.

What would you say if the power would be upped to level 5? Would that make it more fair?


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## Psikus (Jan 21, 2011)

KarinsDad said:


> Ok, let's look at Moment of Glory.
> 
> The time to use it is in an N+2 or stronger encounter.
> 
> ...




Nice analysis. It bears mentioning that higher level encounters doesn't automatically translate into higher level monsters (since you can just add more enemies), so the power's effectiveness in tough fights can be a bit higher than your numbers suggest. It also wrecks any monster based on multiple weak attacks (rather than a single, strong one), and it trivializes minions (but then again, what doesn't?). On the other hand, it's not as exciting for brute-heavy fights.



Lord Ernie said:


> What would you say if the power would be upped to level 5? Would that make it more fair?




Yep, that would do the trick. The other option would be to tone down the resistance a bit - as resist 3 it would be acceptable at the lowest levels (where it's really dangerous currently), though it would likely become retrain fodder at late heroic levels. Having the resistance scale (say, with Cha mod) could be a decent compromise.


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## Dice4Hire (Jan 21, 2011)

A lot of these broken powers would be a lot more manageable if they did not scale so well with levels. A lot of the time in 4E you just stick with a low level power because it is still very good even 20 levels higher. Psionics is particularly bad, but most classes have some power that just rocks from whatever level you first get it on up the tiers.


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## KarinsDad (Jan 21, 2011)

Lord Ernie said:


> So we've got a level +2 fight here, where the monsters can't do anything but straight up damage? I tend to pack my hard fights with a good mix of stun, dominate, or dazing effects, in addition to some protection from save ends conditions. Solo's, especially, tend to be either very mobile, or heavily status inducing, along with some MM3-dose of effect-ending capabilities.




Dazing doesn't work. Dominate and Stun could if a) the NPC is close enough to the Cleric to use it, b) the NPC still has that type of power (they tend to be per encounter), and c) the NPC actually hits with the uber condition power. Course, that assumes that the other PCs do not have a way to give the Cleric a free saving throw. Most non-Leaders don't have this, but there are ways.

Sure. The NPCs might get lucky once in a while, but a high percentage of the time, the Cleric nerfs the BBEG and then backs away and the BBEG cannot do much about it. His alllies might be able to, but the allies aren't really the threat.



Lord Ernie said:


> So yeah, on Moment of Glory I'm willing to hand it to you. Where Cloak of Courage is more of a playstyle/approach choice (much like stacking lots of temporary HP with an Artificer), and Astral Condemnation only really does its thing against Solo's/Elite's without good status effects and support, Moment of Glory beats both that type of encounter and mass enemies, and is overly strong at low level - the Shaman level 2 utility "Protective Roots" has a similar problem, and doesn't even require a Sustain.




Cloak of Courage is according to the rules which the original designer did not realize. And even at the cost of a Standard Action each time, that's still a lot of free healing surges. The simple solution for it is to make it a Daily power and then it gives ~4 healing surges (depending on party size), just slightly stronger than the same level Cure Critical Wounds, but at the cost of a Standard Action.

We have a 2nd level Shaman in our game where the player wants to swap out Protective Roots. I had to explain to the player how strong it really is. Not quite on par with Moment of Glory (it actually starts beating Moment of Glory possibly at Paragon not for the same amount of damage resisted, but due to the fact that it does not require a sustain).



Lord Ernie said:


> What would you say if the power would be upped to level 5? Would that make it more fair?




At that level, it stops < 1/3 instead of < 1/2 at level 1. Still pretty darn potent, but obviously better. I'd drop it from broken to honorable mention at that point. I should also put Protective Roots in the Honorable Mention category.


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## Ryujin (Jan 21, 2011)

KarinsDad said:


> How would you as a player feel if your Striker started doing 1/3rd average damage automatically without a to hit roll? If the DM said "I'm sorry, the monster just nerfed your PC. And, there are several such monsters in this dungeon, so expect to have it cast on your again tomorrow.".




About the same, I would imagine, as when the DM says, "You just did 50% damage to that wraith, because it's insubstantial. Oh, wait; that's 1/4 because he hit you, so you're also weakened."

In other words, not very good. Yeah, sounds broken to me.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Jan 21, 2011)

I agree, Cloak of Courage as a daily is right about on par with other powers of the same level. Nice, but certainly not broken, and a good choice for say a melee cleric or some other build that might be action starved and wants a power that can be used ahead of time and just works or could be dropped in a tough fight if needed.


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## KarinsDad (Jan 21, 2011)

Ryujin said:


> About the same, I would imagine, as when the DM says, "You just did 50% damage to that wraith, because it's insubstantial. Oh, wait; that's 1/4 because he hit you, so you're also weakened."
> 
> In other words, not very good. Yeah, sounds broken to me.




In addition, the wraith has fewer hit points than normal. So although the weakened PC is doing less damage, he has less damage that he has to do as well. There's a balancing factor there to the potent monster ability. When the Cleric uses Astral Condemnation, the PCs do not have fewer hit points than normal for the BBEG to carve through.


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