# Converting Al-Qadim creatures



## Shade (Nov 24, 2009)

Part Two. 

Original thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 post count.


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2009)

*Serpent Lord *
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical/Hills and ruins
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Genius (17-18)
TREASURE: A, S, T
ALIGNMENT: Lawful good
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: - 2
MOVEMENT: 6
HIT DICE: 16
THAC0: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 4-24
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Constriction, spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 70%
SIZE: G (50' long)
MORALE: Champion (16)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 15,000

Serpent lords, who resemble giant white cobras with human faces, are renowned healers and sages. They have a kind and compassionate nature.

The body of a serpent lord resembles that of a snow-white, hooded cobra, up to 50 feet in length. They have a human face and a warm, friendly smile.

They can communicate in their own language and that shared by all serpents. They can also speak Midani.

Combat: Serpent lords regard themselves as healers and scholars, not fighters. They are always protected by at least four giant constrictor snakes with maximum hit points. It is not uncommon for a serpent lord to be attended by an additional 2-12 giant poisonous snakes and 2-8 spitting snakes (cobras). These guardians will fight to the death in order to protect their king or queen.

The serpent lord is endowed with strong magical powers. Each has the abilities of a 16th-level cleric with an 18 Wisdom, able to turn undead, and memorize the following number of spells: nine 1st level, nine 2nd level, eight 3rd level, seven 4th level, four 5th level, three 6th level, and one 7th level. They typically choose spells from the healing, necromantic, divination, protection, and charm spheres, but have been known to memorize combat spells as well. Their strong magical resistance protects them from the effects of most spells used against them.

Should their spells and guardians fail them, serpent lords can attack by coiling their serpentine body around an opponent and constricting for 4-24 points of damage. They can entangle up to eight man-sized opponents in their steel-like coils. Once a constriction attack has been successful, the victim takes damage automatically on subsequent rounds until freed. It requires a combined total of 70 Strength points to extricate a man-sized victim from a serpent lord.s crushing embrace.

Habitat/Society: Serpent lords live in large, secluded caves in the wilderness, far from civilized lands. Their caves are typically found in barren, stony hills favored by snakes or in longabandoned ruins.

Serpent lords are powerful monarchs. As king or queen of the snakes in a 20-mile radius of their lair, they can summon 10-20 normal and giant constrictors, 10-60 normal and giant poisonous snakes, and 10-40 spitting snakes to their defense if given enough time (1-4 days). The reptiles normally found in the serpent lord’s company are regarded as his friends and family as well as his guardians. They will not be sacrificed in combat foolishly or haphazardly. The serpent lord will personally protect his lesser cousins against powerful adversaries and predators.

Perhaps the biggest concern for the serpent lord and his protecting snakes is the acquisition of food. They are primarily carnivores, preferring lamb or beef; chickens and other birds will suffice, but fish is definitely out of the question. Serpent lords prefer their meat cooked whenever possible. Anyone bringing meat to a serpent lord will earn a -4 bonus on the reaction roll; anyone offering roasted or cooked meat to a serpent lord will earn a -10 on the reaction roll.

Serpent lords are widely sought after for their healing powers. Over the years, they tend to accumulate a considerable hoard, consisting mainly of gifts left behind in gratitude by cured patients. Serpent lords are not greedy or avaricious creatures, however, and will often bestow a precious jewel or jar of gold to a needy supplicant or a favored guest. Of those unable to afford luxuriant gifts in exchange for healing, a serpent lord might require that they start a fire, catch a wild pig or herd animal, and cook it for the serpent lord’s dinner.

Serpent lords are sages as well as powerful healers. They are specialized in the the lore of herbalism, magical potions, and clerical magic in general. They are sometimes the guardians of a powerful clerical or religious magical item (like a Book of Exalted Deeds or a Sword + 5, Holy Avenger), yielding it up to whoever can perform a preordained quest.

Ecology: Serpent lords are the champions and protectors of snakes in the wild. They devote almost all of their attention to the practice of healing.

A wide variety of powerful potions can be made from the brain of a serpent lord. The right half of the brain is extremely toxic and can be used to make poisons. The left half of the brain is nourishing and life-giving. It is a prime ingredient in elixirs of life and potions of longevity.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix (MC13)(1992).


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 25, 2009)

OK, giant snake monster, sixteenth level cleric casting, some sort of snake empathy? Domains I'm recommending right off the bat are Good, Law, Healing, Protection and Scalykind.


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## freyar (Nov 25, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> OK, giant snake monster, sixteenth level cleric casting, some sort of snake empathy? Domains I'm recommending right off the bat are Good, Law, Healing, Protection and Scalykind.



I'm right with you.  Also thinking: NAGA!


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## Shade (Nov 25, 2009)

Agreed, but I'm not sure about naga.  While there are similarities, they strike me more as an equivalent to the sabu lords we did earlier.  I believe there are a few more "animal lord" creatures out there.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 25, 2009)

We should say something about how some sages suspect them of having ties to the naga, but the serpent lords aren't saying anything on the subject. 

Aberration (like a naga) or magical beast?


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## Shade (Nov 25, 2009)

I'd prefer magical beast.


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## freyar (Nov 26, 2009)

Flavor ties and magical beast is ok by me.


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## Cleon (Nov 26, 2009)

freyar said:


> Flavor ties and magical beast is ok by me.




Yes, I like Magical Beast over Aberration too, although we can crib some stats from nagas.

So, do we want to keep them Gargantuan? A typical Giant Constrictor Snake is probably about 40 feet long, so I'll argue for reducing them to Huge size, since 50 feet isn't that much longer.

As for ability scores ... 

Medium Constrictor Snake: Str 17, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Giant (Huge) Constrictor: Str 25, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Huge Viper: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Guardian Naga (Large): Str 21, Dex 14, Con 19, Int 16, Wis 19, Cha 18

Take the Guardian Naga's mental stats and upsize it by one step, bump up Int and Wis by 1 apiece, and increase Dex to 15 (since Huge snakes have better Dexterity than the Dex 12 a standard Huge-sized Guardian Naga would have.)

That would give us:

Serpent Lord: Str 29, Dex 15, Con 23, Int 17, Wis 20, Cha 18


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## freyar (Nov 27, 2009)

For snake-like things, 50 ft is kind of borderline between Huge and Gargantuan, right?  So I'm happy to go either way.  Proposed abilities seem fine to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 29, 2009)

I'd like to keep them Gargantuan. It's not a terribly common size category.


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## freyar (Nov 30, 2009)

That's a good enough reason for me.  I'll vote for Gargantuan, too.


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

I added the usual size modifiers to Cleon's proposed Huge ability scores to make it Gargantuan.

Anyone else find it odd that the serpent lord resembles a cobra, yet functions as a constrictor snake?


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## freyar (Nov 30, 2009)

And it's quite a constriction, 8 people!  It's kind of like swallow whole in that way (unless you can always constrict multiple critters, I've never thought about that).

Their brains are poisonous, maybe that makes them like a cobra?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 1, 2009)

I think it's because the hood looks cool.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2009)

freyar said:


> And it's quite a constriction, 8 people!  It's kind of like swallow whole in that way (unless you can always constrict multiple critters, I've never thought about that).




That's an excellent question.  I thought I remembered a creature with an ability similar to this, but the ones I suspected (sea serpents, sea drake, deathcoils) don't have such an ability.


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2009)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I added the usual size modifiers to Cleon's proposed Huge ability scores to make it Gargantuan.
> 
> Anyone else find it odd that the serpent lord resembles a cobra, yet functions as a constrictor snake?




Gargantuan is OK by me, but I'd rather add half the usual size mods (Str 33, Con 25) since I was aiming its stats for the Huge/Gargantuan border. That would put it just under the much larger Purple Worm (Str 35, Con 25), which is 80 feet to the Serpent Lord's 50, and it's also closer Strength-wise to a Giant Constrictor Snake (Str 25, Con 13) advanced to Gargantuan (Str 33, Con 17).


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2009)

Shade said:


> That's an excellent question.  I thought I remembered a creature with an ability similar to this, but the ones I suspected (sea serpents, sea drake, deathcoils) don't have such an ability.




I don't recall any monsters per se that could do that, but I believe AD&D _ropes of entanglement _could bind up to eight man-sized targets simultaneously.


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## freyar (Dec 2, 2009)

I'd be ok with reducing the abilities a little.

Why don't we just put in some text about constricting up to X number of X-sized opponents?


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2009)

Sounds good.

Updated.



> The serpent lord is endowed with strong magical powers. Each has the abilities of a 16th-level cleric with an 18 Wisdom, able to turn undead, and memorize the following number of spells: nine 1st level, nine 2nd level, eight 3rd level, seven 4th level, four 5th level, three 6th level, and one 7th level. They typically choose spells from the healing, necromantic, divination, protection, and charm spheres, but have been known to memorize combat spells as well. Their strong magical resistance protects them from the effects of most spells used against them.




Spells: A serpent lord casts spells as a 16th-level cleric. 

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/7+1/6+1/6+1/5+1/5+1/3+1/3+1/2+1; save DC 15 + spell level): 
0—x; 
1st—x; 
2nd—x; 
3rd—x; 
4th—x;
5th—x;
6th—x;
7th—x;
8th—x.
*Domain spell. Domains: x and x.

Choose from Charm, Healing, Protection, and Scalykind domains?


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## freyar (Dec 2, 2009)

Those domains sound right, and let's give the sample Healing and Scalykind, I guess.  I think I'll pass on the spell lists till I have a little more time to sit down with this.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2009)

Spells: A serpent lord casts spells as a 16th-level cleric.  Serpent lords generally choose from the following domains:  Charm, Healing, Protection, and Scalykind.

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/7+1/6+1/6+1/5+1/5+1/3+1/3+1/2+1; save DC 15 + spell level): 
0—create water, detect magic, detect poison, guidance, read magic, resistance; 
1st—bless, cure light wounds*, divine favor, endure elements, entropic shield, obscuring mist, sanctuary, shield of faith; 
2nd—aid, animal trance*, delay poison, enthrall, owl's wisdom, shield other, status; 
3rd—create food and water, dispel magic, greater magic fang*, helping hand, prayer, searing light, wind wall; 
4th—air walk, death ward, freedom of movement, neutralize poison, poison*, tongues;
5th—animal growth*, break enchantment, flame strike, righteous might, spell resistance, true seeing;
6th—greater dispel magic, heal*, mass bear's endurance, wind walk;
7th—control weather, holy word, refuge, vipergout*;
8th—animal shapes*, earthquake, holy aura.
*Domain spell. Domains: Healing, Scalykind.


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2009)

Or I could just let you do it. 

They look good to me!


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2009)

Updated.



> Combat: Serpent lords regard themselves as healers and scholars, not fighters.




Feats and skills should reflect that outlook.



> Serpent lords are powerful monarchs. As king or queen of the snakes in a 20-mile radius of their lair, they can summon 10-20 normal and giant constrictors, 10-60 normal and giant poisonous snakes, and 10-40 spitting snakes to their defense if given enough time (1-4 days). The reptiles normally found in the serpent lord’s company are regarded as his friends and family as well as his guardians. They will not be sacrificed in combat foolishly or haphazardly. The serpent lord will personally protect his lesser cousins against powerful adversaries and predators.




Shall we give it a more standardized "summon serpents" ability, and not the additional followers in the flavor text?



> Perhaps the biggest concern for the serpent lord and his protecting snakes is the acquisition of food.




Survival?



> Serpent lords are sages as well as powerful healers. They are specialized in the the lore of herbalism, magical potions, and clerical magic in general. They are sometimes the guardians of a powerful clerical or religious magical item (like a Book of Exalted Deeds or a Sword + 5, Holy Avenger), yielding it up to whoever can perform a preordained quest.




It sounds like Heal, Craft (alchemy), and various Knowledge skills, along with the Brew Potion feat.

So...

Skills: 95 ranks
Concentration, Craft (alchemy), Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (any), Sense Motive, Survival?

Feats: 6
Brew Potion, Eschew Materials, Skill Focus (Heal), Self-Sufficient...


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2009)

Agreed to standardized summons.

Skills look good, but I don't know quite how to divide the ranks, as it can only max out 5.  Maybe 15 in Concentration, Diplomacy, Heal, Sense Motive, Survival, and 10 each in Craft and Know?

Negotiator.  Maybe Improved Counterspell as a defensive ability?


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2009)

I think the ranks in Knowledge are more important that Survival (since they are "scholars").   Perhaps a racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) and Heal to reflect their inherent knack for those skills?


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2009)

So 15 in Knowledge and 10 in Survival, that's fine.  Racial bonuses to Craft and Heal are good.  Perhaps these should also have some kind of bardic knowledge like ability.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2009)

Bardic knowledge is a fine idea!


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2009)

Let's see.  Bardic knowledge or lore (from the loremaster) use class level and Int modifier as the check bonus.  What should we use here.  1/2 HD plus Int?


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2009)

Even better suggestions with the loremaster!  You're on a roll here.  

Thus...

Lore (Ex) A serpent lord knows legends or information regarding various topics, just as a bard does with bardic knowledge. The serpent lord adds half its Hit Dice plus its Intelligence modifier to the lore check, which functions otherwise exactly like a bardic knowledge check.

Look good?

Updated.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 4, 2009)

Drop Self-Sufficient. Combat Expertise, Improved Trip or Disarm would be flavor-appropriate as defensive fighting feats, for when pressed.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2009)

How about Brew Potion, Combat Expertise, Eschew Materials, Improved Counterspell, Improved Trip, Skill Focus (Heal)?


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2009)

That's ok, or do we want to find a justification for a wolf-like trip attack?


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2009)

I find a tripping tail sweep a bit more plausible.


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2009)

I like that idea.  And it saves a feat!


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 6, 2009)

Add the tripping tail sweep (like a Megalania, right?) and switch Improved Trip for Improved Disarm or Eyes in the Back of the Head from the SRD Divine feats?


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## freyar (Dec 6, 2009)

Improved Disarm goes with Combat Expertise nicely, but there's definitely something appealing about Eyes in the Back of the Head.  Hard to decide.  I guess Improved Disarm, since presumably that also helps out any allies also.


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2009)

Updated.

Tail sweep usually deals automatic tail slap damage.  Do we want to give the serpent lord a tail slap attack, or just have the tail sweep deal damage as if it had one (2d8 is typical for a Gargantuan creature)?


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## freyar (Dec 7, 2009)

With the HD it has, a tail slap wouldn't be out of order.


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2009)

So would the full attack line be "bite and tail slap" or "bite or tail slap"?

If we go with the standard 2d8 damage for its size, they'll be identical, so once wouldn't really be a preferred attack mode over the other.  Do we want it to favor the bite?


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## freyar (Dec 7, 2009)

"And" I guess.  And reduce the tail slap to 2d6 maybe.  It's personality is not melee-centric, and it has plenty of spells, so the damage can go down more even if we want.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2009)

Updated.

Environment: Warm hills and underground?

Organization: Solitary or x (1 plus x snakes)

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: 17–32 HD (Gargantuan); 33–48 HD (Colossal)?

Serpent lords are up to 50 feet long and weigh upwards of x pounds.


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## Cleon (Dec 8, 2009)

freyar said:


> "And" I guess.  And reduce the tail slap to 2d6 maybe.  It's personality is not melee-centric, and it has plenty of spells, so the damage can go down more even if we want.




I'd go for "and tail-slap" for 2d6. A Huge constrictor snake does 1d8 constricting with its tail, so it seems fair to give the Gargantuan serpent lord the next step up the damage ladder of 2d6.


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## Cleon (Dec 8, 2009)

Shade said:


> Environment: Warm hills and underground




Guess so, it fits the original "tropical hills and ruins".



Shade said:


> Organization: Solitary or x (1 plus x snakes




I'd say "Solitary or court (1 serpent lord plus 4-7 giant constrictor snakes plus 4-24 huge vipers)"



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: x




Challenge Rating 16 I guess, since they're pretty close to a 16th level cleric.



Shade said:


> Advancement: 17–32 HD (Gargantuan); 33–48 HD (Colossal)?




We could follow the SRD Naga scheme of 150% (Size), 300% (Size+1), that would make them 17-24 HD (Gargantuan); 25-48 HD (Colossal)

Does their casting level advance with their Hit Dice?



Shade said:


> Serpent lords are up to 50 feet long and weigh upwards of x pounds.




Well it's estimated a 30 foot anaconda would weigh about 500-550 pounds, so if we scale up to 50 feet that gives us around 2300-2500 pounds, which is way low for a Gargantuan creature.

Hmm, nagas start at 200 pounds, or 40% the starting weight of their Large size. If we use that as a basis and make them 40% of basic 16 tons of a Gargantuan creature that would make them 12000 pounds.

I'd trim that down to 10000 pounds, although its still four times the weight of an anaconda-proportioned snake that length.

Maybe all those fine cooked meals have made Serpent Lords seriously overweight?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2009)

CR 16-17 seems appropriate to me. Two quibbles, though. First off, the tail slap should be at +18 on the full attack line, and do half Str damage. Secondly, why exactly is it dire?


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2009)

I have been wondering about the dire bit myself.  Presumably that's from the lion lords (or whatever they were called).


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2009)

Yep, borrowed from the lion lord.  Do you wanna drop it?  I have no quibbles with doing so.

Updated.


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## Cleon (Dec 9, 2009)

Shade said:


> Yep, borrowed from the lion lord.  Do you wanna drop it?  I have no quibbles with doing so.
> 
> Updated.




I like the Dire. Without it they're a full spellcasting monster with a poor Will save, which doesn't seem right.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2009)

I wouldn't want to keep it for that reason, though.  Many, if not the majority, of monsters have a single weak save.

If there's a flavor reason to keep it though, I'm all for it.   I'm not seeing one, though.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2009)

That gives them an extra good save?  I guess I don't mind much either way, though it sounds weird as these are magical beasts instead of animals.

Edit: sounds like we're dropping it.  Should we go back and revise it out of the lion lord?


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2009)

It fits a bit better for the sabu lord, as it is essentially a souped-up dire lion.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2009)

Let's just drop it here, then.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2009)

Updated.

Finished?


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## freyar (Dec 11, 2009)

Let's move on.


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2009)

*Elephant Bird *
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Jungle
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Flocks
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 10-100
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: Fl 18 (C)
HIT DICE: 3+3
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 or 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10 or 1-4/1-4/1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Heated rocks
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (5.)
MORALE: Unsteady to Average (5-9)
XP VALUE: 420

The elephant bird is a man-sized bird with green plumage and a yellowish, cruel-looking, curved beak. They have a strange, protruding gullet dangling from their throats. Males often have red “racing stripes” that run from their eyes to their tailfeathers, while females are a rather drab green. Their cries are a harsh squawk, distinctive to those versed in the ways of the jungle.

Elephant birds generally travel in pairs and threes, although they are never far from the rest of their flock. When their leader gives the signal, they mass for their hunting flights. They rise in their hunting flight to create a huge cloud of green, and any creature which has had experience with them will seek cover. Anyone who has encountered these creatures when they are on a hunting flight knows the reason they are called “elephant birds”. When they begin their attack, it is apparent that they could kill an elephant. Tales abound of such killings, the birds assaulting their beleaguered prey until it finally perishes from their massed attacks.

Combat: Elephant birds do not initiate combat unless they are traveling in a hunting flight. When they have the advantage of numbers, they are fierce opponents. Otherwise, they are generally harmless, preferring flight to combat.

In combat, elephant birds usually carry three stones in their thick gullets. The birds superheat the stones in their body then drop these stones on creatures they are attempting to slaughter, causing 1d10 points of damage, as well as 1-4 additional points of damage the next round, from the intense heat generated. They can recharge themselves during combat if they can snatch extra rocks for the attack. The superheating takes only one round to accomplish. Each bird can carry only three stones. If no rocks are available to the elephant birds, they attack with their fierce claws and beak. The birds attempt to overbear their opponents, adding 1 to their attack rolls for every three birds in the attack. Once an opponent is prone, they add 4 to their attack rolls for their beak strikes, and score automatically with their claws for 1d4 points each. Their beaks rend their prey for 1d6 points a round.

If they cannot overbear their opponents, they will attempt to land on them and blind them with flapping wings and flying feathers. Although this attack causes no damage, it does force the opponent to attack at a -3 on his attack roll.

Habitat/Society: Elephant birds dwell near clearings in the leafy, humid jungles of Zakhara, or in the thinning trees at the edges of these jungles. Their relatively open habitat enables them to respond quickly to the presence of prey in the jungle or near the perimeter.

Their nests are generally located in the upper reaches of the trees, where they can spot those who seek to harm them long before any damage is done. Their eggs are prized as a delicacy by many jungle creatures, although the predators only dare to approach the nests while the birds are hunting. Even then, there is always the chance that several birds have remained behind.

Ecology: Elephant birds feed on nearly anything they can find, although they prefer freshly killed meat. If none is available, they will eat carrion. If there is no carrion, they can survive by eating berries, worms, insects, or grains. By working together, elephant birds have established themselves at the top the food chain, feeding on what they like, avoiding those who would feed on them. Few predators hunt the elephant bird. Its only natural enemies are humans and humanoids. Since the birds are a menace to humanoids as well as their crops, beings who live near the elephant bird hunt them at every opportunity. For this reason, elephant birds avoid human territory. They will occasionally venture into human and other settlements if food is scarce or the pickings look especially good.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix (MC13)(1992).


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## freyar (Dec 11, 2009)

These are pretty cool.  The superheating would imply magical beast to me.  Medium, 3 HD with pretty decent Con (from the +3 in hp).  Maybe the rest kind of average, with Int 1.

Obviously we need a rock ability.  The rest of the text suggests a "pack tactics" ability, including some sort of group trip attack.


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## Cleon (Dec 11, 2009)

Seems pretty straightforward, we can just modify the Giant Owl / Giant Eagle a bit.

Medium Magical Beast
3 Hit Dice
AC 15 (+3 Dex, +2 natural)
Speed 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 60 ft. (average)
Str 14, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 14, Cha 5
1d3 claws, 1d6 bite, 1d10 plus 1d6 fire "superheated stone"


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 11, 2009)

We should raise the Int to 2. All animals in 2e had an Int of 1, but birds in 3.x are generally Int 2.

I'd swap the Str and Dex in Cleon's stats and raise the Con to 16--these guys are beefy, not agile, and the "3+3" lends itself to a robust Con score. The overbearing to me suggests a diving charge with a free trip attempt, perhaps with an additive bonus for more creatures attacking at once.


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2009)

I'll agree with demiurge's suggestions for the abilities: Str 17 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 2 Wis 12 Cha 5.  The suggestion for overbearing sounds good, too.  Putting it together:

Overbear (Ex): An elephant bird may make a special overbearing attack as a flying charge against an opponent on the ground.  If the elephant bird hits on the charge, it may make a trip attempt as a free action.  If the trip attempt fails, the opponent may not react to trip the elephant bird.

If multiple elephant birds ....


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## Cleon (Dec 12, 2009)

freyar said:


> I'll agree with demiurge's suggestions for the abilities: Str 17 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 2 Wis 12 Cha 5.  The suggestion for overbearing sounds good, too.  Putting it together:
> 
> Overbear (Ex): An elephant bird may make a special overbearing attack as a flying charge against an opponent on the ground.  If the elephant bird hits on the charge, it may make a trip attempt as a free action.  If the trip attempt fails, the opponent may not react to trip the elephant bird.
> 
> If multiple elephant birds ....




I guess Con 16 makes sense, a Giant Eagle in 2nd edition AD&D only had 4 straight HD without any bonuses. Str 17 is quite good for a Medium sized creature, but they need a decent score since their tactics rely on Strength or Grapple checks.

As for the Overbearing, I was just going to give them  Improved Trip or Improved Overrun as a bonus feat (probably the former).


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2009)

Oooh, overrun.  That's what I was trying to think of this whole time.


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Let's figure out the "superheated stones" ability.

Here's one source of inspiration...

Spit Stones (Ex): A gohlbrorn swallows large rocks as it burrows through the earth, and stores them in its gullet. A gohlbrorn can spew these rocks with tremendous force at opponents up to 50 feet as a standard action. This is a ranged attack with no range increment. A gohlbrorn’s gullet may hold up to 8 stones, which are launched one at a time. A gohlbrorn that runs out of stones during combat continues the battle fighting with teeth and claws. A gohlbrorn may burrow as a full-round action to replenish one stone, but does not stop to do this during combat.


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## freyar (Dec 14, 2009)

I think that works pretty well.  We can just modify numbers...

Spit Stones (Ex): An elephant swallows large rocks and stores them in its gullet, which superheats them magically. An elephant bird can spew these rocks with tremendous force at opponents up to 50 feet away as a standard action, doing 1d10 plus 1d4 fire damage. This is a ranged attack with no range increment. An elephant bird’s gullet may hold up to 3 stones, which are launched one at a time. An elephant bird that runs out of stones during combat continues the battle fighting with beak and claws. An elephant bird may snatch and swallow a rock as a full-round action to replenish one stone, but does not usually stop to do this during combat.

All numbers negotiable.


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2009)

Looks good.

For the "mass attack" bonuses, how about we add Improved Trip as a bonus feat (like Cleon suggested), and give 'em a toned-down version of this epic creatures' ability?

Savage (Ex): If a brachyurus successfully trips an opponent, it latches onto the opponent's body and tears the flesh. This automatically deals an additional 15d6+25 points of damage. If an opponent goes prone for any reason (perhaps as the subject of another brachyurus's Improved Trip attack) in an area the brachyurus threatens, the brachyurus can also savage the victim as a free action (treat as the brachyurus's attack of opportunity for the round), even though it had nothing to do with tripping the foe.


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## freyar (Dec 14, 2009)

I actually like Improved Overrun better, but either way.  I like Savage, definitely toned down.  Maybe just an extra 1d6+Str?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 15, 2009)

Yeah, there's precedent for that. Rend Fallen, as per the Abyssal Maw in MMII. 

For once, overrunning looks like an appropriate ability. Only catch is that it'll still provoke an attack of opportunity against the elephant bird.


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2009)

I'm actually ok with the AoO since these aren't really intelligent birds.  Or we could write a new ability that avoids AoOs rather than use the feat.


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2009)

Rend fallen is a bit odd, though, as the abyssal maw lacks any method of tripping a foe.  It almost suggests that any creature it drops below 0 hp is immediately hit for additional damage.

Here's the writeup...

Rend Fallen (Ex): An abyssal maw loves to tear into its downed foes. It automatically deals an additional 2d8+4 points of damage to any foe it drops with a melee attack.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 15, 2009)

Yeah, that is the idea--you get knocked out by an abyssal maw, you're probably dead. But let's just give the birds bonus damage against prone foes.


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## Cleon (Dec 15, 2009)

freyar said:


> I think that works pretty well.  We can just modify numbers...
> 
> Spit Stones (Ex): An elephant swallows large rocks and stores them in its gullet, which superheats them magically. An elephant bird can spew these rocks with tremendous force at opponents up to 50 feet away as a standard action, doing 1d10 plus 1d4 fire damage. This is a ranged attack with no range increment. An elephant bird’s gullet may hold up to 3 stones, which are launched one at a time. An elephant bird that runs out of stones during combat continues the battle fighting with beak and claws. An elephant bird may snatch and swallow a rock as a full-round action to replenish one stone, but does not usually stop to do this during combat.
> 
> All numbers negotiable.




Looks OK, except the first elephant's lost its bird!

As for the numbers, I'd add its Strength bonus (whatever that is) on the spit rock and maybe increase the fire damage. I'd like the spit stone to be at least in the same ballpark damage wise as its claw/claw/bite routine, which adds up to 1d6+3+2d4+2 = 13.5 average damage. Adding Strength and upping the fire damage to 1d6 would make 1d10+3+1d6 = 12 average damage.

I'd also fancy rewording it slightly to put the "tremendous force" in the first line and cut out the "which are launched one at a time", which seems a bit extraneous, and I'm thinking the "An elephant bird that runs out of stones during combat continues the battle fighting with beak and claws" is (a) more suited for the tactics entry and (b) the information is implicit in the next sentence.

If I put all that together, I'd get something like:
*Spit Stones (Ex):* An elephant bird swallows large rocks and stores them in its gullet, which superheats them magically, and can then spew these red-hot stones at opponents with tremendous force. An elephant bird can spit a single stone up to 50 feet away as a standard action, doing 1d10+3 bludgeoning damage plus 1d6 fire damage. This is a ranged attack with no range increment. An elephant bird’s gullet may hold up to 3 stones, the bird may snatch and swallow a rock as a full-round action to replenish one stone, but does not usually stop to do this during combat.​


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## Cleon (Dec 15, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Yeah, there's precedent for that. Rend Fallen, as per the Abyssal Maw in MMII.
> 
> For once, overrunning looks like an appropriate ability. Only catch is that it'll still provoke an attack of opportunity against the elephant bird.




Oh I forgot Improved Overrun didn't negate the standard AoO. I'd rather give its beak the Trip special attack than have it risk opportunity attacks.


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2009)

Good suggestions on spit stones.  The original had the fire damage happening in two rounds, which is probably why the lower value.

I think I like the mechanic of overrun better than trip, to be honest.  It's not like they're throwing someone down with their beak, like a wolf would do with its bite.  Why don't we just write an "Overrun" SA, must like the trip attack of a wolf, that negates the AoO?


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## Cleon (Dec 15, 2009)

Shade said:


> Looks good.
> 
> For the "mass attack" bonuses, how about we add Improved Trip as a bonus feat (like Cleon suggested), and give 'em a toned-down version of this epic creatures' ability?
> 
> Savage (Ex): If a brachyurus successfully trips an opponent, it latches onto the opponent's body and tears the flesh. This automatically deals an additional 15d6+25 points of damage. If an opponent goes prone for any reason (perhaps as the subject of another brachyurus's Improved Trip attack) in an area the brachyurus threatens, the brachyurus can also savage the victim as a free action (treat as the brachyurus's attack of opportunity for the round), even though it had nothing to do with tripping the foe.






Shade said:


> Rend fallen is a bit odd, though, as the abyssal maw lacks any method of tripping a foe. It almost suggests that any creature it drops below 0 hp is immediately hit for additional damage.
> 
> Here's the writeup...
> 
> Rend Fallen (Ex): An abyssal maw loves to tear into its downed foes. It automatically deals an additional 2d8+4 points of damage to any foe it drops with a melee attack.




Rather than automatic damage, I'd prefer an attack-of-opportunity mechanism, maybe with increased damage against a prone foe. Something like.*Rend Fallen (Ex):* An elephant bird can make bonus beak attacks against prone opponents in any space the bird threatens. The bird can make a single Rend Fallen attack whenever a foe falls prone (including opponents that were tripped or overrun by the elephant bird or its companions), plus it can  make a single Rend Fallen attack on its initiative score against a previously fallen opponent. An elephant bird's Rend Fallen attacks are in addition to any normal beak attacks it makes on its turn, and count towards the number of attacks of opportunity it can make in a round as if they were normal attacks of opportunity.​That means an elephant bird gets 2 beak attacks (1 standard, 1 AoO) and 2 claws against a prone foe when full-attacking, so I don't think it needs a damage increase as well, since it is potentially doubling its beak damage simply by doubling its number of attacks.

If we use this mechanism, there is an obvious temptation to give the elephant bird Combat Reflexes...


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2009)

Why not just say that it can make an AoO against any prone foe?

Also, we cross-posted, look above!


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## Cleon (Dec 15, 2009)

freyar said:


> Why not just say that it can make an AoO against any prone foe?




'Cause I like to make things complicated.



freyar said:


> Also, we cross-posted, look above!




About the Spit Stones and Overrun? Yes, I'm writing a response to that now.


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## Cleon (Dec 15, 2009)

freyar said:


> Good suggestions on spit stones.  The original had the fire damage happening in two rounds, which is probably why the lower value.
> 
> I think I like the mechanic of overrun better than trip, to be honest.  It's not like they're throwing someone down with their beak, like a wolf would do with its bite.  Why don't we just write an "Overrun" SA, must like the trip attack of a wolf, that negates the AoO?




That suits me just as well, so I might as well rough out a writeup by modifying the wolf's Trip SA.*Overrun (Ex):[sans AoA]* An elephant bird that hits with a charge attack can attempt to overrun its opponent (+X check modifier) as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If the elephant bird fails it has no risk of falling prone.​Although I am wondering whether we could keep an AoO as an option - maybe base on a combination of the Trample and Trip special attacks? Something like:*Overrun (Ex):[with Reflex]* An elephant bird that hits with a charge attack can attempt to overrun its opponent (+X check modifier) as a free action. The opponent can either make an attack of opportunity against the elephant bird or try to avoid the overrun with a DCX Reflex save (success negates the overrun attempt, but the opponent still takes damage from the charge attack). If the elephant bird fails its overrun's Strength check it has no risk of falling prone. The Reflex save DC is Strength-based.​


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2009)

I like the first option, as overrunning already has opposed checks.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2009)

The rend fallen as cleon's written it is rather too powerful. I'd rather that they just do bonus damage to prone opponents.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2009)

Agreed.

Summarizing...

Overrun (Ex): An elephant bird that hits with a charge attack can attempt to overrun its opponent (+X check modifier) as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If the elephant bird fails it has no risk of falling prone.

Rend Fallen (Ex): An elephant bird automatically deals an additional xdx+x points of damage to a prone foe.

Spit Stones (Ex): An elephant bird swallows large rocks and stores them in its gullet, which superheats them magically, and can then spew these red-hot stones at opponents with tremendous force. An elephant bird can spit a single stone up to 50 feet away as a standard action, doing 1d10+3 bludgeoning damage plus 1d6 fire damage. This is a ranged attack with no range increment. An elephant bird’s gullet may hold up to 3 stones, the bird may snatch and swallow a rock as a full-round action to replenish one stone, but does not usually stop to do this during combat.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2009)

I don't think it needs a +x. It's more like sneak attack, in my view, only doing bonus dice to the prone instead of the flat-footed or flanked.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2009)

Fair enough.  1d6 damage?


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2009)

That sounds right.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 17, 2009)

Yeah.


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 6
Listen and Spot seem appropriate.  Should we give them a +8 racial bonus on Spot checks like most birds of prey?

Feats: Improved Overrun (B), 2 more
Most birds of prey have Alertness.  Dire eagles and giant eagles also have Flyby Attack, while giant owls have Wingover.


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2009)

You know, maybe Rend Fallen should say something like 


Rend Fallen (Ex): An elephant bird automatically deals an additional 1d6 points of damage to a prone foe that it attacks successfully.

Just to be clear.

Listen, Spot at 3 ranks each sounds good.

Flyby Attack to divebomb with the rocks.


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2009)

I fancied it a bit more like savage, though...



> Savage (Ex): If a brachyurus successfully trips an opponent, it latches onto the opponent's body and tears the flesh. This automatically deals an additional 15d6+25 points of damage. If an opponent goes prone for any reason (perhaps as the subject of another brachyurus's Improved Trip attack) in an area the brachyurus threatens, the brachyurus can also savage the victim as a free action (treat as the brachyurus's attack of opportunity for the round), even though it had nothing to do with tripping the foe.




So maybe add the provision for anything in its threatened area?


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2009)

That's fine.  I just think it's a little ambiguous as it is.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2009)

Flyby Attack seems the perfect feat to me. Giving them Listen, Spot, and a big racial bonus to Spot checks in daylight seems fair.


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## Cleon (Dec 18, 2009)

Shade said:


> Fair enough.  1d6 damage?




I'd have no great objection to that. It is a good deal simpler. Although I'll point out that would potentially allow an elephant bird to do significantly more damage than my Rend Fallen proposal.

If it full attacks the elephant bird would do 2d6+3 beak and 1d4+1d6+1 + 1d4+1d6+1 with 2 claws *plus* a potential 2d6+3 attack of opportunity, my Rend Fallen would do a 1d6+3 beak and 1d4+1 + 1d4+1 claws plus a Rend Fallen 1d6+3, which counts as its AoO.

That's a full-attacking 4d6+2d4+5 or 6d6+2d4+8 with the "bonus 1d6 damage" scheme, versus 2d6+2d4+8 with the "AoO rending" scheme.


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## Cleon (Dec 18, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Flyby Attack seems the perfect feat to me. Giving them Listen, Spot, and a big racial bonus to Spot checks in daylight seems fair.




Sounds fine.

So we're talking Alertness and Flyby Attack, 3 points in Listen and Spot, +4 racial on Spot (+8 in daylight)?


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2009)

Well, note that the savage ability Shade lists counts some of the rending as AoO.  The whole thing is a little confusing, I think.

Alertness and Flyby sound good.


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2009)

freyar said:


> That's fine.  I just think it's a little ambiguous as it is.




Why don't we just write it up like this?

Rend Fallen (Ex): An elephant bird automatically deals an additional 1d6 points of damage to a foe it knocks prone with its overrun attack. If an opponent goes prone for any reason (perhaps as the subject of another elephant bird's overrun attack) in an area the elephant bird threatens, the elephant bird can also rend the victim as a free action (treat as the elephant bird's attack of opportunity for the round), even though it had nothing to do with overrunning the foe. 

It shouldn't do a ton of extra damage, as it only threatens adjacent squares, and it lacks Combat Reflexes.


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## freyar (Dec 21, 2009)

I think that's fine.  And a mean DM can always switch a feat for Combat Reflexes.  I mean, shoot, I could see switching out Alertness. 

Now that we have the Overrun ability, do we still need Imp Overrun as a bonus feat?  It would provide a nice +4 bonus (which then should be added to the Overrun ability).


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2009)

I think it's worth keeping for the reason you suggested, and for the fact that it's such an under-used feat.  

Updated.



> If they cannot overbear their opponents, they will attempt to land on them and blind them with flapping wings and flying feathers. Although this attack causes no damage, it does force the opponent to attack at a -3 on his attack roll.




It looks like we missed the wing buffet attack.


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## Cleon (Dec 22, 2009)

Shade said:


> Why don't we just write it up like this?
> 
> Rend Fallen (Ex): An elephant bird automatically deals an additional 1d6 points of damage to a foe it knocks prone with its overrun attack. If an opponent goes prone for any reason (perhaps as the subject of another elephant bird's overrun attack) in an area the elephant bird threatens, the elephant bird can also rend the victim as a free action (treat as the elephant bird's attack of opportunity for the round), even though it had nothing to do with overrunning the foe.
> 
> It shouldn't do a ton of extra damage, as it only threatens adjacent squares, and it lacks Combat Reflexes.




That'll do.


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## freyar (Dec 22, 2009)

Re: wing buffet.  It looks like that doesn't do damage and isn't an "attack" per se.  Instead, it gives penalties, much like being prone does anyway.  So the question is whether these penalties stack or should be ignored.  To answer the question, does anyone know if being prone in 2e gave attack penalties?


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## Cleon (Dec 22, 2009)

Shade said:


> I think it's worth keeping for the reason you suggested, and for the fact that it's such an under-used feat.




I agree with that.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/5028216-post824.html


Shade said:


> It looks like we missed the wing buffet attack.




Oops! You're right. I remember seeing an adaptation of the Swan that had something similar, a wing-buffet touch attack that dazzled any sighted creature it struck for a round.

That doesn't seem a big enough penalty to me, considering the original -3 to hit is 75% of AD&D's penalty to hit an invisible target. How about upping it to concealment (20% miss chance) or cover (+4 AC) for a round. I think soft cover.

So, shall we add a "wing-buffets +6 touch (concealment)" or "wing-buffets +1 touch (concealment)" for a full attack? The SA could go something like:
*Wing-Buffet:* If an elephant bird hits with a wing-buffet attack its opponent is half-blinded for a round, during which time all the opponent's attacks are treated as if their target(s) had soft cover (+4 AC, no attacks of opportunity).​


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2009)

Hmm...

A quick search finds we've done a few of these before:

Wing Buffet (Ex): As a standard action, a flying manni can buffet an opponent within melee reach with its wings. This attack deals 1d2 hp of damage, and the opponent must make a DC 13 Fortitude save or be dazed for one round. The save DC is Strength-based.

Wing Buffet (Ex): If a fire falcon hits with both wing attacks, it slaps its target in the face, causing the target to lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, even if it normally cannot lose this bonus. If the target is mounted, it also loses its Dexterity bonus to Ride checks, and must succeed on a Ride check with a –10 penalty to the DC to stay mounted. The DC for the check increases by +2 for every additional fire falcon that is buffeting the target. If the target is blind, or wearing a full face helmet, it is immune to the buffet.


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## freyar (Dec 22, 2009)

Rather than an attack penalty, since they're prone already, let's go with dazed like the manni.  We can drop the damage.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 22, 2009)

I like dazed and no damage.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2009)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: x

Elephant birds are 5 feet long with a x-foot wingspan. Most weigh around x pounds.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 22, 2009)

A little bigger than the largest real raptor, the Haast's Eagle. They had a proportionally short wingspan of 8.5-9 feet, so we may want to boost these to 10-11 feet. They weighed 22-33 pounds, which seems appropriate.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2009)

Sounds great!

CR 3?  They have one less HD than giant eagles and owls, but the special abilities seem to even them up.

Advancement:  4–8 HD (Large); 9–12 HD (Huge)?  That follows the giant owl and eagle progression.


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## Cleon (Dec 23, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Challenge Rating: x
> 
> Advancement: x




Challenge Rating 3. They may have 1 HD less than a Giant Eagle, but they're loaded with special abilities.

I was going to suggest the standard 4-6 HD (Medium); 7-9 HD (Large), but I like Shade's proposed 4–8 HD (Large); 9–12 HD (Huge) since that would let them grow to elephant size!



Shade said:


> Elephant birds are 5 feet long with a x-foot wingspan. Most weigh around x pounds.




My first idea was "A typical elephant bird stands about 5 feet tall, has a wingspan of up to 10 feet" since (A) I imagine them as being rather upright birds, like a spoonbill stork and (B) that's half the height and wingspan of the (Large) giant eagle.

However, if they're almost giant eagle size we should but them somewhere inbetween. Maybe add a length that's somewhere between the two?
A typical elephant bird is roughly 7 feet long and stands about 5 feet tall, with a wingspan of up to 15 feet.​


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## freyar (Dec 25, 2009)

This generally looks good, and I'm not picky about the size.


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## Shade (Dec 28, 2009)

Updated.

With that, I believe we're finished.

Next!

*Mason-Wasp, Giant *
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical/Plains or desert
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Incidental
ALIGNMENT: Neutral good
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENT: 6, Fl 21 (B)
HIT DICE: 6+1
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 4-16/1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poison and fire breath
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to fire
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6' long)
MORALE: Steady (11)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 3,000

Giant mason wasps are enlarged versions of the normal variety, which is found throughout Zakhara. Both kinds are viewed as messengers of the gods and bringers of good fortune. 

The body of a giant mason wasp is 6' long, with a 12’ wingspan. Its hard exoskeleton is a lustrous, jet black, but its front mandibles and mouth glow cherry red with heat. In addition, the abdomen is tipped with a retractable stinger.

Combat: Giant mason wasps rarely attack humans or demihumans, preying mostly on the animals, reptiles, and evil monsters that roam the plains and deserts of Zakhara. If faced with a single opponent, it will swoop down and grab the victim with its legs. The wasp will then bite with its red-hot mandibles and attempt to impale the victim with its stinger.

The vicious bite of a giant mason wasp inflicts 2-8 points of damage. Creatures not immune to fire take an additional 2-8 points of damage from the mandibles’ searing heat. The wasp.s sting inflicts 1-4 points of damage and injects a victim with a powerful and deadly toxin. Those not successfully saving vs. poison lose consciousness in 1-4 rounds and are wracked by a burning fever. Victims must make two system shock rolls: if the first is successful, the victim awakes from the fever after 1-3 days. If the first roll is failed but the second is successful, the victim awakes from the fever after a week, but loses 1 point of constitution permanently. A victim with two failed rolls will die after a week of fever unless they receive the benefit of a cure disease spell in the interim; they still lose 1 point of constitution permanently. Giant mason wasps are immune to fire and all fire-based attacks. If faced with more than one opponent, they can also breathe a cone of fire (5 feet wide at the mouth, 15 feet wide at the end, and 20 feet long) up to three times per day. The breath inflicts 6-30 points of damage (save for half damage). Finally, it is considered very bad luck to kill a giant mason wasp. At the DM’s discretion,whoever participates in their destruction must roll a saving throw or be afflicted with the evil eye.

Habitat/Society: In the wild, giant mason wasps are solitary creatures. Their name is derived from the female’s tendency to create large above-ground structures out of a mixture of dirt sand, and saliva called dhilva, which hardens into a rocklike substance.

Once a month, the female will seek a male and mate. The pair then hunt for a large animal or evil monster, paralyze it with their poison, and carry it back to the female’s den, where the victim is immobilized with more dhilva. The female then lays 1-3 eggs on the victim and seals the entrance to the den with dhilva. Upon hatching, the larvae consume the host, dissolve the dhilva with their own saliva, and fly away to establish their own hunting grounds and dens. Although giant mason wasps do not hoard treasure, some incidental treasure might be found in a mason wasp’s den.

Giant mason wasps are often friendly to humans and demihumans. They make excellent pets and guardians if a common mode of communication can be established. Priests, who can use spells to speak with animals, and rangers who have a natural affinity for animal handling, are among those most frequently encountered with a giant mason wasp as a pet or guardian. They might also be found as guardians in mosques.

Ecology: In both the wilderness and city, giant mason wasps can be found as protectors of good and the opposers of evil. Their arch-nemesis is the vishap (q.v.), who break into their dens and consume wasp eggs as a sugared delicacy. 

There are many useful derivatives that can be made from a mason wasp. Since killing a giant mason wasp can bring bad luck, most people wait until one of the insects dies from natural causes before using their remains in a potion. Their fire glands can be used to make potions of fire breath, while their exoskeleton, if powdered, can be used to make either potions of fire resistance or oil of fire elemental invulnerability. Insinuative poison can be obtained from their poison sacks, which are located in the abdomen near the stinger. This poison (Type O) loses its potency if not used within a week; it can also be used to make powerful poison antidotes.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix (MC13)(1992).


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## freyar (Dec 28, 2009)

Medium magical beast. Spider eaters strike me as a good comparison point for physical abilities (Str 21, Dex 13, Con 21, +4 natural armor).  Perhaps go to Str 17, Dex 18, Con 21, Int 5, Wis 12, Cha 10?  And +4 natural?


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## Shade (Dec 28, 2009)

As an aside, wasps are my least favorite creature on Earth.  Their mere presence gives me feelings of revulsion.   I cannot begin to suspend my disbelief enough to believe such a vile, horrid abomination could be good-aligned.  

That said, carry on.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 28, 2009)

I have a hard time buying good aligned wasps too, but that's where the challenge is!

A poison that causes Con drain and paralysis for weeks on end seems pretty harsh, and the worsening effects on multiple saves seems more disease-like than poison. Then again, the sting of a spider eater does paralyse for weeks as well.


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## freyar (Dec 29, 2009)

Can someone remind me what happens if you don't eat for weeks (like if you fail your save vs spider eater poison)?  Should be Con damage or something, but I can't remember where that would be from.

I agree that the poison sounds more like a disease (even if it's unconsciousness rather than paralysis).


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## Cleon (Dec 29, 2009)

Shade said:


> As an aside, wasps are my least favorite creature on Earth.  Their mere presence gives me feelings of revulsion.   I cannot begin to suspend my disbelief enough to believe such a vile, horrid abomination could be good-aligned.
> 
> That said, carry on.




Its the way they're neutral good and reproduce by having their larvae eat paralyzed creatures alive that strikes me as a bit odd.

Well they only tortuously devour dumb animals and Evil creatures, so I guess it's alright in the eyes of the D&D deities.


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## Cleon (Dec 29, 2009)

freyar said:


> Medium magical beast. Spider eaters strike me as a good comparison point for physical abilities (Str 21, Dex 13, Con 21, +4 natural armor).  Perhaps go to Str 17, Dex 18, Con 21, Int 5, Wis 12, Cha 10?  And +4 natural?




That looks OK.

Although we may want to consider increasing the size to Large. If they're a 6-long version of the 10-foot long, 4000 pounds Spider Eater they would weigh 850 pounds or so, well into Large-size territory. Plus the Mason Wasp has more HD than both the Spider Eater and the Large-sized Giant Wasp.

Their attacks, SA & SQs look pretty straightforward, apart from the effect of their poison:

Bite (1d8+3 plus fire 1d6) and Sting (1d4+1 plus poison)?

Fire Breath - 6d6 fire in 20 foot cone?

Immunity to Fire (there's no mention of any weakness to cold, so I'd not give them the Fire subtype)


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## Shade (Dec 29, 2009)

I have no problem with increasing them to Large.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 31, 2009)

I'm alright with Large and no fire subtype.


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## Shade (Dec 31, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jan 2, 2010)

This looks pretty good to me.  Now for the poison: keep the poison like Shade has it, switch to Con damage or drain, or change to a disease with paralysis?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 2, 2010)

I like the Dex damage as initial, and paralysis as secondary?


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2010)

That would work for me.  Similar enough to the spider eater.


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## Cleon (Jan 3, 2010)

freyar said:


> That would work for me.  Similar enough to the spider eater.




Fine by me.

The original can knock its victims out for between 1-3 days (1 failed save) and a week (2 failed saves, but followed by death). So, say 1d6 Dex damage for the primary effects and 1d3 days paralysis for the secondary effects of its poison, but the paralysis duration is cumulative?

So, what else have we got.

Three feats: A spider eater's Alertness and Dodge, plus Flyby Attack?

9 Skill points: A spider eater has 3 ranks in Listen and 4 in Spot, with a +4 racial bonus. - 4 ranks in Listen and 5 in Spot, with a +4 racial bonus?

Challenge Rating - they look like a Challenge Rating 5 or so to me, but so is a spider eater, and they're significantly nastier in a fight than a spider eater. CR 6?

Advancement - A spider eater reaches Huge at 5 HD, a giant wasp reaches Huge as 9 HD. Mason Wasps are smaller, so the standard triple HD advancement will probably do - 7-12 HD (Large); 13-18 HD (Huge)?


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2010)

We need to get agreement on breath weapon damage.  Either 5d6 or 6d6 is ok by me.

Flyby Attack sounds right for the last feat based on the strategy given.

Agreed to skills.

CR 6 is fine.

Advancement looks good.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 3, 2010)

Agreed to Flyby Attack and CR 6.


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## Cleon (Jan 4, 2010)

freyar said:


> We need to get agreement on breath weapon damage.  Either 5d6 or 6d6 is ok by me.




The original does 6-30 or 6d6, which seems good enough to me.


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2010)

Cleon said:


> The original does 6-30 or 6d6, which seems good enough to me.




6-30 is 6d5, not 6d6.  

That said, I prefer 5d6, as it's only a point off on the low end, rather than 6 higher on the high end.

I agree with most of the rest, but would prefer to stick with the giant wasp's racial Spot bonus of +8 (and retain the Survival bonus to orient itself).

Updated.


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## freyar (Jan 4, 2010)

Looks good.  Done?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2010)

Point of order: reptiles are animals.


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2010)

Indeed they are.  Fixed!

Here's the next one...

*Markeen *
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low to Genius (5-18)TREASURE:
ALIGNMENT: Nil
NO. APPEARING: Any	
ARMOR CLASS: 17
MOVEMENT: 12, Fl 18 (B)
HIT DICE: 2
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6 or by weapon type
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 120

A markeen, or genie double, is a lesser form of genie exiled from the majority of their kind. Each genie double is cursed at birth to be the spitting image of a human from Zakhara. The genie double is not magically linked to or even necessarily friendly toward that person; they don.t share thoughts, memories, place of birth (though they are always born at the same instant), or any other traits besides their outward appearance. The confusion that results when the genie double of an important personage finds out who it resembles can be monumental.
A genie double superficially appears to be entirely human. They are born, live, and die in the same period of time that a normal human passes through life, and their apparent age always matches that of their human double (unless the human has somehow been magically altered to appear younger or older). A genie double may outlive its human double, but may also die before its human double does; the two are not spiritually linked in any way. Not everyone has a genie double. Generally only famous, wealthy, beautiful, gifted, holy, or utterly villainous individuals have genie doubles.

It is commonly believed that genie doubles are the result of a genie rebellion which ended in the losers being forced to live forever as humans, with only tiny traces of their former power. 

Combat: Once per day, a genie double may use each of the following spell-like abilities: flame blade, dust devil, invisibility, and gust of wind.

Although they rarely use the ability near humans, genie doubles also retain geniekind’s ability to fly, and they will escape from awkward situations this way. At other times, they will impersonate mages so as not to arouse suspicion. In all other respects, genie doubles fight with the tactics of humans. Their preferred weapons are scimitars, spears, and crossbows.

Habitat/Society: The markeen are merchants, tinkers, sailors, and horse traders, living by their wits in small communities that are isolated socially to prevent the discovery of their identities. Despite (or because of) the knowledge that they are genies and thus superior to those around them, the markeen are affable, friendly, and perfectly willing to live among humans without a trace of outward patronizing or haughty behavior.

Genie doubles form shadow societies within the human settlements of Zakhara with their own sets of beliefs, leaders, and rituals. Two of the most important rituals are “the search” and “the memory”. The search is a traditional coming-of-age ritual in which each young genie double sets out on an extended quest to find his or her human counterpart. These trips last from a month to a year, but the young markeen are not really expected to find their double. The purpose of the ritual is simply to expose the adolescents to the world and broaden their horizons. Actually finding the double is seen as flouting established traditions, since decades often go by between successful searches. However, it is possible for a markeen to take the place of his or her double, once found. The only difficulty they may have is a lack of knowledge of their double.s life and skills. The ritual of memory is common among the older markeen. As genie doubles age, they tell younger markeen the stories of how they were cast out from the rest of geniekind and how they have tricked, befuddled, and swindled humans for generations. The story of exile is told, and other genies are always described in an unflattering light. The ritual of memory is always held in secrecy.

There is a subgroup of the genie doubles called the hayan, who are doubles of bards and poets. They inhabit distant lands, but if they can be found they can inspire their double to write immortal poetry.

Ecology: Markeen trade with humans constantly, though there is no knowledge of this on the part of most humans. Markeen avoid all other genies and distrust them at best. Genie doubles will go to great lengths to silence anyone who uncovers the secret of one of their communities.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix (MC13)(1992).


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## Cleon (Jan 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> 6-30 is 6d5, not 6d6.
> 
> That said, I prefer 5d6, as it's only a point off on the low end, rather than 6 higher on the high end.
> 
> ...




Gah! You're right, it would have been 6-36 if it was 6d6.

Very well, 5d6 it is.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> Here's the next one...
> 
> *Markeen
> **SNIP*




Hmm...

A 2 Hit Dice Medium Outsider (Native) with no elemental type, like a Jann?

Attacks with a 1d6 Slam or a weapon.

Move 30 ft. or fly 50 ft. (perfect)?

1/day _flameblade_, _invisibility_, _gust of wind_ are straight conversions, but _dust devil_ isn't in the SRD although I think its in a wizard 3E book somewhere. Do we want to give it that, or substitute it for an SRD spell - _glitterdust_?

Whats up with the "ARMOR CLASS: 17" - is that a typo for AC 7, since the original's for AD&D?

Not sure what to do about the ability scores. Base them on a Jann I suppose, with maybe a few points knocked off here and there since they don't seem very powerful.

Jann: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 13

So what, if anything should we knock off? All the SRD Genies have Wisdom 15, so I think we should keep that. They'll need Charisma at least 12 for their 2nd level SLAs.

Jann in AD&D do 1-8+Strength with a punch, suggesting they're stronger than Markeen, and have Very to Exceptional Intelligence versus the Markeen's Low to Genius. Very-Exceptional is Int 13-16, Low to Genius is 5-18. The average of those two is 14.5 versus 11.5, suggesting a Markeen is a little less intelligent on average than a Jann (but has more variability).

So, shall we knock 2 points off a Jann's Strength and Intelligence?

Markeen: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 13

I think that'll do.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2010)

Cleon's ability scores appeal. 

The alignment is listed as "Nil". Shall we assume that actually means "often neutral"?


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## freyar (Jan 6, 2010)

Back to the mason wasp: there's a mason-asp at the end of the penultimate flavor paragraph.


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## freyar (Jan 6, 2010)

I also like Cleon's suggested abilities and would go with often neutral.


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

In 2e, dust devil essentially summoned a little air elemental, so how about giving them summon monster III (air elemental only)?

Retain the telepathy 100 ft. common to all genies?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 7, 2010)

Summon monster III sounds good, as does telepathy.


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2010)

Caster level for SLAs equal to double their HD (in this case, 4th) like a janni?

Racial bonus on Disguise checks to apppear as their double?


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2010)

Everything sounds good.  Maybe +10 Disguise like disguise self?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2010)

+10 to the disguise sounds reasonable. Do they get the usual penalty for impersonating someone familiar?


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2010)

I think so, since they're not supposed to have the same behaviors as their duplicates.


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## Shade (Jan 11, 2010)

Skills: 9 at 5 ranks

Feats: Improved Initiative (B), 1 more


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## Cleon (Jan 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> In 2e, dust devil essentially summoned a little air elemental, so how about giving them summon monster III (air elemental only)?




So basically "summon small air elemental". Yes, that would work.

From what I remember of _dust devil_ it was a 2nd level spell that created a whirlwind that was roughly 5-10 feet tall (vs a Small elemental's 10-20 feet), so it may even have been a Tiny elemental! It was also incorporeal and could not deal damage.

Hmm, an accurate interpretation would probably be something like:

*Summon Dust Devil (Sp):* Once per day a markeen can summon a Small air elemental to appear in its whirlwind form anywhere with a 50 foot range. This spell-like-ability allows the air elemental to remain in its whirlwind form for 1 round per Hit Dice the markeen possesses. The elemental can not revert to its normal form to make slam attacks, but must remain in its whirlwind form while summoning lasts, moving as the markeen directs it. Summon Dust Devil is the equivalent of a 2nd level spell.



Shade said:


> Retain the telepathy 100 ft. common to all genies?




There's no mention of telepathy in the write-up, so I'd drop it. Perhaps their lack of a genies' ability to speak to most sapient things is part of their curse?


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## Cleon (Jan 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> Skills: 9 at 5 ranks




I'd give them the same selection as a Jann, but with 1 less Craft skill since their Intelligence is 2 lower, and full ranks in Diplomacy since they make a living interacting with people:

*Skills:* Appraise 5, Concentration 5, Craft (any) 5, Diplomacy 5, Escape Artist 0, Listen 5, Move Silently 5, Ride 5, Sense Motive 5, Spot 5, Use Rope 0 (+X with bindings)



Shade said:


> Feats: Improved Initiative (B), 1 more




All the SRD Genies have Combat Reflexes and Dodge, so I'd think one or t'other of those. They aren't described as being very combative, so I'd lean toward Dodge - or we could give them one as a regular feat and the other as a bonus feat.


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2010)

I like your list, but I think we need some ranks in Disguise and/or Bluff as well.  I'd propose replacing Ride with one of those skills.

I agree with your assessment of Dodge over Combat Reflexes, and don't think they need the latter as a bonus feat.

I'd like to retain telepathy.  I'll leave it up to the consesus whether to go with a unique dust devil ability, or simply go with summon monster III.

Advancement: 3–6 HD (Medium)?  (sticking to the janni's size progression)

Level Adjustment: +3?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 12, 2010)

Yeah, drop Ride, give them two ranks in Disguise and three to Bluff. I prefer the small air elemental to a unique ability.


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2010)

If we put all 5 into Bluff, it will get an equal boost to Disguise via synergy.  

Does that appeal?


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## Cleon (Jan 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> If we put all 5 into Bluff, it will get an equal boost to Disguise via synergy.
> 
> Does that appeal?




Yes, I agree they need Bluff and Disguise, but I think they also need Ride - I imagine they spend a lot of time with caravans riding horses and camels, so they'd need the skill.

How about we take a couple of points from Craft & Ride, and a point from Move Silently, to max out Bluff? 

*Skills:* Appraise 5, Bluff 5, Concentration 5, Craft (any) 3, Diplomacy 5, Escape Artist 0, Listen 5, Move Silently 4, Ride 3, Sense Motive 5, Spot 5, Use Rope 0 (+X with bindings)

If we decide we want some points in Disguise as well I'd take another point from MS, Appraise & Ride.

*Skills:* Appraise 4, Bluff 5, Concentration 5, Craft (any) 3, Diplomacy 5, Disguise 3, Escape Artist 0, Listen 5, Move Silently 3, Ride 2, Sense Motive 5, Spot 5, Use Rope 0 (+X with bindings)

I think I prefer the second of these selections.


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## freyar (Jan 13, 2010)

Let's go with the last of Cleon's skill assignments.  I could go either way (unique Su or summon SLA) for the air elemental.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2010)

Updated.

CR 2?


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## Cleon (Jan 13, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> CR 2?




That looks about right.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 14, 2010)

CR 2 sounds right.


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2010)

Yup.  Done then?


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2010)

I think so.


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2010)

*Snake, Winged*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical forests
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Flocks
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Herbivore
INTELLIGENCE: Semi (2-4)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 2-8	
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 12, Fl 18 (B)
HIT DICE: 4+4
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poison, spark shower
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to electricity
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (8-10’ long)
MORALE: Average (9)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 1,400

Winged serpents, sometimes called spark snakes, are colorful reptiles that dwell in Zakhara's forests and jungles. Winged serpents come in many colors, ranging from sky blue and emerald green to raspberry red. They are supported by invisibly swift, gossamer wings, making them resemble reptilian hummingbirds. When their delicate wings are folded back, winged serpents can spider climb at will.

Combat; Winged serpents move with liquid grace and devastating speed. They always receive a -3 bonus to initiative. 

The bite of a winged serpent inflicts ld4 points of damage and injects the victim with a corrosive, acidic fluid. This poison has an onset time of 1 round and inflicts an additional 2d8 points of damage for the following 2 rounds (half damage if a save vs. poison is made).

By far the most dangerous attack of these reptiles is their sparking breath weapon. Their wings beat so quickly that they build up a static charge from the ambient air (especially in the humid forest). A winged serpent can discharge this static electricity from its mouth in a spark shower, a cloud of dancing sparks and electrical energy 10 feet in diameter. Those caught in the area of effect take 2d8 (2-16) points of damage (half if a save vs. breath weapon is made). The spark shower will also ignite any exposed flammable objects, like clothes, hair, dry wood, or lamp oil. Once it has been discharged, it takes one turn for a winged serpent to build its static charge back up. All winged serpents are immune to electricity.

Winged serpents are vulnerable to fire-based attacks (especially their delicate wings), against which they save at penalty of -2. If a winged serpent fails its saving throw against a fire attack, assume that its wings are incinerated. Although this won't affect its ability to bite a victim, the serpent cannot use its breath weapon until the wings grow back.

Habitat/Society: Winged serpents must eat constantly in order to survive. They flit about the jungle in small flocks, searching for tropical fruits, from which they draw their nourishment. A winged serpent will fly up to one and inject it wth corrosive venom. The venom breaks down the fruit into a soft, juicy mixture, partially digesting the fruit while it stiil remains in its skin. The serpent will then suck out the fruity pulp through the lncisions made by its fangs. A typical winged serpent will eat roughly 10 times its weight in fruit each day, just to stay alive.

Winged serpents mate as often as they eat (i.e., incessantly although they do not care for their young, which are born Iive and wingless. They are born with their spider climbing ability which helps them climb fruit trees and search for food, Tge young are dark green in color to help them blend in better with the foliage, gaining their chromatic hues only after their wings mature. During the first few months of life, winged serpents are extremely vulnerable to an entire host of predators that roam the jungle heights (including mundane snakes, monkeys, and giant insects). Vestigial wings appear after a month of life, and become fully functional after three months.

Winged serpents have no permanent lair and hoard no treasure.

Ecology: Winged serpents play an important role in the jungle ecology. Like giant bees, they transport pollen from fruit tree to fruit tree and help with the distribution of seeds throughout the jungle. As adults, they have no natural enemies.

If captured during their first month of life before their wings have matured, they make excellent (if expensive) pets. They must consume a great quantity of fruit to survive, eating on average 100 gp worth of fruit each month (this cost might be reduced if large orchard is available). A skilled animal trainer can teach winged serpent up to three tasks or tricks per point of intelligence, which the creature will gladly perform (provided a supply of fresh fruit is constantly at hand). They can even be trained as guardians, although rogues have quickly discovered that unless they are extremely well-trained, they can be easily distracted by a decoy of aromatic, fresh fruit.

Few useful by-products can be obtained from a winged serpent. Their poison decomposes almost immediately after exposure to air, and their hide is too thin and fragile to serve as good leather. Their wings, however, if powdered and mixed with ink, can be used to inscribe a protection from lightning scroll.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix (MC13)(1992).


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## freyar (Jan 15, 2010)

For some reason, these make me think of messenger snakes.  Anyway, magical beast.  Large or maybe just Medium given that they're only 8 to 10 ft long and are presumably rather thin as snakes?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 15, 2010)

Finally! These guys! I know them well from their appearance in the Monstrous Compendium.

I say they're Medium. Do we want to give the bite actual poison, or more of an acid arrow effect?


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2010)

Yes to Medium, and I favor the acid arrow approach, but could be persuaded to poison.


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## Cleon (Jan 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> For some reason, these make me think of messenger snakes.  Anyway, magical beast.  Large or maybe just Medium given that they're only 8 to 10 ft long and are presumably rather thin as snakes?




How many times have we had this debate? Assuming they're roughly the same shape as a Purple Worm they should be Medium sized. I wouldn't think they're more massive than a big Monitor Lizard or a standard-sized Crocodile, and they're both Medium in the SRD (and the croc is supposed to be 11-12 feet long!).

Anyway, as for the rest of it...

Magical Beast for sure.

Four Hit Dice.

Speed 30 feet, climb 30 feet (spiderclimb), fly 50 feet (good)

Let's look at some Medium-sized SRD reptiles to get some inspiration for their ability scores:

Monitor Lizard: Str 17, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2, NA +3
Medium Viper Snake: Str 8, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2, NA +3
Constrictor Snake: Str 17, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2, NA +2

The 4+4 Hit Dice suggests a high Constitution - that's the same HD as a gargoyle in AD&D, which has Con 18 in 3E. The original's 1-4 bite damage indicates a lowish Strength. Say, Strength 10 - that's what you get scaling a Large Giant Eagle or Giant Owl down to Medium. The Dexterity should be high, so I'd leave it at 17 and give it NA +2 like a Constrictor Snake.

Now for the mental scores. Being Semi-intelligent I'd up its Int by 2 points. The Wisdom can stay the same. I'd up the Charisma to around 6-7, roughly the same as a Cat, Dog or Monkey, since they're supposed to make good pets.

So, that works out:

Winged Snake: Str 10, Dex 17, Con 17, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 6, NA +2

Does that look alright?


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## Cleon (Jan 15, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yes to Medium, and I favor the acid arrow approach, but could be persuaded to poison.




It reads  like 1d8 acid damage per round over 2 rounds, with Fort saves for half damage.

It could be some kind of "bio-acid" enzyme that dissolves living flesh, but not mineral matter (so no damage to stone or metal).


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2010)

Well, I guess the question is if we favor the save or not.  I guess I'd rather not call it a poison, but I could be persuaded to allow saves for half damage.  But it's roughly like acid arrow.

I can go with Cleon's suggested abilities.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 18, 2010)

I'm alright with the save for half when the acid is in.


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## Shade (Jan 19, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.



> When their delicate wings are folded back, winged serpents can spider climb at will.




Spider climb as an at will SLA, or give 'em wallcrawling?



> Combat; Winged serpents move with liquid grace and devastating speed. They always receive a -3 bonus to initiative.




Improved Init as bonus feat?



> By far the most dangerous attack of these reptiles is their sparking breath weapon. Their wings beat so quickly that they build up a static charge from the ambient air (especially in the humid forest). A winged serpent can discharge this static electricity from its mouth in a spark shower, a cloud of dancing sparks and electrical energy 10 feet in diameter. Those caught in the area of effect take 2d8 (2-16) points of damage (half if a save vs. breath weapon is made). The spark shower will also ignite any exposed flammable objects, like clothes, hair, dry wood, or lamp oil. Once it has been discharged, it takes one turn for a winged serpent to build its static charge back up. All winged serpents are immune to electricity.




1 turn = 10 minutes.   Simplify to once every 2d4 rounds, or once per minute?



> Winged serpents are vulnerable to fire-based attacks (especially their delicate wings), against which they save at penalty of -2. If a winged serpent fails its saving throw against a fire attack, assume that its wings are incinerated. Although this won't affect its ability to bite a victim, the serpent cannot use its breath weapon until the wings grow back.




Simplify to vulnerability to fire?  I'm not fond of the "burn off the wings" mechanic, especially since they lack regeneration.


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## freyar (Jan 21, 2010)

Wallcrawling, I think.
Yes.
Once per minute.
Yeah, let's just do vulnerability to fire.  The rest is too exceptions-based.


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## Shade (Jan 21, 2010)

Updated.

Modifying the dragon turtle's cloud-shaped breath with the combustible effects of the lightning bolt spell gives us...

Breath Weapon (Su): Cloud of dancing sparks 10 feet high, 10 feet wide, and 10 feet long, once every minute, damage 2d8 electricity, Reflex DC x half.  The spark shower also sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in its path. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Look OK?

Give it the usual snake skill bonuses?

Skills:  Snakes have a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. A snake can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. Snakes use either their Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher. A snake has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## Cleon (Jan 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> Spider climb as an at will SLA, or give 'em wallcrawling?




I'm fine either way. There isn't much to say its specifically magical as opposed to a tree snake's usual superb climbing, so Wallcrawling. 



Shade said:


> Improved Init as bonus feat?




Fine by me.



Shade said:


> Simplify to vulnerability to fire?  I'm not fond of the "burn off the wings" mechanic, especially since they lack regeneration.




I'd prefer to have either either a "flammable wings" special quality or nothing. The original doesn't take extra damage from fire.

Since you don't like a burn off the wings SQ, I guess that means I'm voting for no vulnerability.


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## Cleon (Jan 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Modifying the dragon turtle's cloud-shaped breath with the combustible effects of the lightning bolt spell gives us...
> 
> ...




Looks that way to me.



Shade said:


> Give it the usual snake skill bonuses?




It doesn't have a Swim Speed, so we should drop the associated skill bonuses.


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## Shade (Jan 22, 2010)

Cleon said:
			
		

> I'd prefer to have either either a "flammable wings" special quality or nothing. The original doesn't take extra damage from fire.
> 
> Since you don't like a burn off the wings SQ, I guess that means I'm voting for no vulnerability.




It does suffer a penalty on saves vs. fire effects, though.  I'll leave it until Demiurge weighs in to give another vote one way or the other.

Updated.

Skills: 7



> Winged serpents must eat constantly in order to survive. They flit about the jungle in small flocks, searching for tropical fruits, from which they draw their nourishment.




Put ranks in Search and/or Survival?

Feats: Improved Initiative (B), 2 more

Alignment: Usually neutral?

Advancement: x

A winged serpent is 8 to 10 feet in length and weighs x pounds. 

Winged serpents speak x.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 23, 2010)

2 ranks Search and Spot, 3 ranks Survival?

As for feats, how about Flyby Attack and Weapon Finesse?


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## freyar (Jan 24, 2010)

Those skills and feats appeal.  And I like the suggested breath weapon.  demiurge, thoughts on the vulnerability to fire or not?

Following the messenger snake, advancement: 5-8 HD (Medium), 9-11 HD (Large)?  Usually neutral works.  300 to 450 lb? That's a bit lighter than scaling the messenger snake.


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## Cleon (Jan 24, 2010)

demiurge1138 said:


> 2 ranks Search and Spot, 3 ranks Survival?




I don't care for Search for them, I suspect they would "search" for fruit with the Spot skill as far as 3E mechanics go - the fruit trees are probably not hidden behind secret doors, you know.

How about Escape Artist instead?

Escape Artist 2, Spot 2, Survival 3?

Should they have a racial bonus in Escape Artist for being all wiggly?



demiurge1138 said:


> As for feats, how about Flyby Attack and Weapon Finesse?




Great minds think alike! Those were the feats I was going to propose.


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## Cleon (Jan 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> Alignment: Usually neutral?




Usually neutral makes good sense.



Shade said:


> Advancement: x




I was thinking 5-7 HD (Medium); 8-12 HD (Large), but freyar's proposal works too.



Shade said:


> A winged serpent is 8 to 10 feet in length and weighs x pounds.
> 
> Scaling an 80-foot, 40000 pound Purple Worm down to 8-10 feet long works out at 40-78 pounds. Call it 60 pounds, or at the lower end of Medium - seems quite appropriate for a lightweight flying creature.
> 
> ...


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2010)

Updated.

I don't think a racial bonus in Escape Artist is warranted, as they seem no more "wiggly" than other snakes.

I'm OK with shifting the ranks from Search into Spot or Survival though.  Preferences?


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2010)

I'm not seeing much more call for Survival than an animal has, so I guess I'd go with Spot.  Survival is ok, though, if there is demand.

Cleon is the weight expert, so let's go with his.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 26, 2010)

Survival allows one to find food in the wilds, and it's entirely likely that the owner of a winged serpent would send one out to get fruit for the both of them. Survival it is.


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## Shade (Jan 26, 2010)

Updated.

CR 2?



> If captured during their first month of life before their wings have matured, they make excellent (if expensive) pets. They must consume a great quantity of fruit to survive, eating on average 100 gp worth of fruit each month (this cost might be reduced if large orchard is available). A skilled animal trainer can teach winged serpent up to three tasks or tricks per point of intelligence, which the creature will gladly perform (provided a supply of fresh fruit is constantly at hand). They can even be trained as guardians, although rogues have quickly discovered that unless they are extremely well-trained, they can be easily distracted by a decoy of aromatic, fresh fruit.




Shall we add a "training a winged serpent" section?


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## freyar (Jan 26, 2010)

demiurge1138 said:


> Survival allows one to find food in the wilds, and it's entirely likely that the owner of a winged serpent would send one out to get fruit for the both of them. Survival it is.



I can go with Survival from the training point of view perhaps, but wild animals don't generally have Survival even though the presumably find food for themselves.  

Yes, let's add a training section.


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## Cleon (Jan 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> CR 2?




They're pretty tough.

I'd say Challenge Rating 3 - they're roughly a match for an ogre in hits (34 snake vs 29 ogre), AC (15 snake vs 16 ogre), attack (+7 bite vs +8 club), damage (2d8/4d8 acid + 1d4 bite is roughly equal to 2d8+7 if the target saves 50% of the time) and have better saves, flight and a breath weapon.

Of course, the Ogre could be over-CR'd.


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## Cleon (Jan 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> I can go with Survival from the training point of view perhaps, but wild animals don't generally have Survival even though the presumably find food for themselves.
> 
> Yes, let's add a training section.




I agree Survival is questionable based on SRD creatures (although personally I'd prefer more wild animals to have ranks  in that skill).

We could just divide the Survival points among Listen and Hide if you don't fancy putting skill points in it. We could always give it a racial bonus in Survival if we think it needs some help in that department.

It definitely needs a How To Train a Winged Serpent section.


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## Shade (Jan 27, 2010)

I think we're OK with Survival in this case, since Int is a step above a simple animal.



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> A creature of humanlike intelligence has a score of at least 3.


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2010)

I'm not fussed about Survival one way or the other, so we can keep it.


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## Cleon (Jan 28, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'm not fussed about Survival one way or the other, so we can keep it.




Good, I like Survival for them.


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2010)

Training A Winged Serpent
To be trained, a winged serpent must have a friendly attitude toward the trainer. A winged serpent usually has a friendly attitude toward trainers who supply the snake with fresh fruit for at least a few days and has not attacked or mistreated the creature. A winged serpent is indifferent (at best) toward most other creatures. Changing a winged serpent's attitude requires a wild empathy check (with the normal -4 penalty applied against magical beasts). A character can use a Diplomacy check instead, provided the character has some way to communicate with the serpent, such as access to a speak with animals spell.

Training a friendly winged serpent requires a Handle Animal check (with the normal +5 increase to DCs for training a magical beast). The time require depends on the tricks or task the winged serpent must learn, as noted in the Handle Animal skill description.

Winged serpent eggs are worth x gp apiece on the open market, while young are worth x gp each. Professional trainers charge x gp to rear or train a winged serpent.


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2010)

Filling in the prices, pegasi are 2000gp, 3000gp, and 1000gp also at CR 3.  Since the winged serpent can't fly with so much, though, I'd make it 1500 gp, 2000gp, and 1000gp.


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## Cleon (Jan 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> Training A Winged Serpent
> To be trained, a winged serpent must have a friendly attitude toward the trainer. A winged serpent usually has a friendly attitude toward trainers who supply the snake with fresh fruit for at least a few days and has not attacked or mistreated the creature. A winged serpent is indifferent (at best) toward most other creatures. Changing a winged serpent's attitude requires a wild empathy check (with the normal -4 penalty applied against magical beasts). A character can use a Diplomacy check instead, provided the character has some way to communicate with the serpent, such as access to a speak with animals spell.
> 
> Training a friendly winged serpent requires a Handle Animal check (with the normal +5 increase to DCs for training a magical beast). The time require depends on the tricks or task the winged serpent must learn, as noted in the Handle Animal skill description.
> ...




That looks alright. 

Do we make any mention of them being expensive to keep due to their diet of rare, exquisitely ripe tropical fruit?

If we mention that, it should affect their price - since the Winged Serpent breeder/dealer/trainer will have to feed them and will presumably try to pass this cost on to their customer.


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## freyar (Jan 29, 2010)

I'm not sure if there's precedent for talking about the food in the training section, but we can certainly adjust the price as we wish (within reason for balance, I guess; also, 1gp is a lot of money, so you might not need to increase the price that much for the fruit).


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## Cleon (Jan 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'm not sure if there's precedent for talking about the food in the training section, but we can certainly adjust the price as we wish (within reason for balance, I guess; also, 1gp is a lot of money, so you might not need to increase the price that much for the fruit).




The original description says the fruit to feed them costs 100 gp per month, and it takes about 3 months for them to get old enough to fly.

General training takes 2-6 weeks according to the Handle Animal entry, so if you add that to the 3 months it takes to raise one from the egg it would cost 350-450 gold pieces in fruit!

I suppose if we consider the 100 gp/month includes accommodation as well as food that's not too unreasonable. Going by the SRD a good Inn is 2 gp/night and good meals 5 sp/day - that's about 75 gp per month.

A banquet is 10 gp per person in the SRD, so really luxurious provisions could cost 300 gp a month!


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## Shade (Feb 1, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I suppose if we consider the 100 gp/month includes accommodation as well as food that's not too unreasonable.




I think that's the best approach.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 1, 2010)

I agree that the expensive food shouldn't be pulled out specifically. Perhaps the cost to train one should rise, but that's about it.


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## Shade (Feb 1, 2010)

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Feb 1, 2010)

Looks good to me.


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## Shade (Feb 2, 2010)

The next three are emeshed into a single entry...

*Roc, Zakharan, Common Roc*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Semitropical/mountains/ocean
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: C
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 3, Fl 30 (C)
HIT DICE: 18
THACO: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claw or 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-18/3-18 or 4-24 (3d6/3d6 or 4d6)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Swoop with -5 to opponent.s surprise; snare (95% chance or better)
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: G (60 ft. long, 120.ft. wingspan)
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: 12,000

*Roc, Zakharan, Great Roc*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Semitropical/mountains/ocean
FREQUENCY: Vert rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: D
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENT: 3, Fl 24 (C)
HIT DICE: 24
THACO: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claw or 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 4-24/4-24 or 6-36  (4d6/4d6 or 6d6)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Boulder attack (3d10)
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: G (120 ft. long, 270-ft. wingspan)
MORALE: Elite (13)
XP VALUE: 18,000

*Roc, Zakharan, Two-Headed Roc*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Semitropical/mountains/ocean
FREQUENCY: Vert rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: D
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 3, Fl 24 (C)
HIT DICE: 16
THACO: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claw or 2 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-18/3-18 or 4-24/4-24  (3d6/3d6 or 4d6/4d6)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Boulder attack (3d10/3d10)
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: G (60 ft. long, 120-ft. wingspan)
MORALE: Elite (13)
XP VALUE: 14,000

Rocs are huge raptors that dwell in Zakharan mountains and on rocky, secluded islands. They frequent regions in which they can readily find large prey, such as the mountains bounding the Ruined Kingdoms and the island of Afyal. A few, for whom pickings are slim, have been seen soaring over desert wastes and open expanses of ocean.

In the Land of Fate, these birds have brilliant, multicolored plumage. Their wings and backs are typically a shade of green or gold, and females have snowy breasts. Their heavy, powerful beaks range from pale ivory to a rich shade of brass. The color of a roc’s wing tips (the forward edge) distinguishes it from other species: crimson, common roc; azure, great roc; jet, two-headed roc. Males of each species have matching crests. Some adventurers claim to have seen rocs that are purely white, black, or red, but such creatures are so rare as to be legendary.

Size also distinguishes the species. The common roc, still magnificent, measures roughly 60 feet from its beak to the tip of its tail. It has a wingspan of about 120 feet. In contrast, the great roc measures up to 120 feet from beak to tail and has a wingspan of 270 feet. Except for its black-tipped wings, the rare two-headed roc is the same general size and color as the common roc. However, its two heads--characterized by an evil disposition and increased intelligence--are an obvious distinguishing feature. 

Intelligent rocs speak their own language as well as Midani. In addition, they can communicate their wishes to lesser rocs (as in “we wish you to leave the area immediately”).

Combat: The roc usually fights for two reasons: to feed or to protect its nest. If caught unaware and not hungry (a rare case), it uses its great speed to evade an equal or stronger opponent. Even on a full stomach, however, it may hold its ground and fight a pest who seems easy to destroy. 

While hunting, rocs usually soar at a height of 300 to 500 feet, using their extremely sharp eyesight to spot prey on the ground. A roc’s vision can penetrate ground fog, spray, dust storms, and shallow water. They can swoop down to seemingly “appear out of nowhere” and then disappear just as quickly, with little more than a gust of wind to mark their passage.

All roc species share this hunting tactic: (1) swoop and attack with claws; (2) seize prey in claws, attempting to pin arms if necessary (65 percent chance, prevents spellcasting); and (3) carry prey to nest, using bites as needed to subdue victim. Victims of a sudden swoop attack suffer a -5 penalty to their surprise rolls. If the roc must swoop at the same target more than once to seize it, the penalty does not apply. Damage and snaring success vary with the roc species:

A common or two-headed roc inflicts 3 to 18 (3d6) points of damage per claw. If both claws hit, the roc has a 95 percent chance to carry off its prey, which can be size Huge (up to 25 feet tall or long) or smaller.

A great roc inflicts 4 to 24 (4d6) points of damage per claw. If either claw hits a target that is size Large or smaller, the roc can carry it off automatically (if desired). If both claws strike a Gigantic creature, the great roc has a 95 percent chance of carrying it off.

If a seized victim attempts a counterattack, the bird will maintain its hold while punishing the quarry with bites (4d6 damage per strike). Regardless of its size, a roc won’t release its prey until the roc suffers damage equaling 25 percent of its hit points (based on its total when combat began). Sufficient damage convinces the roc that the meal at hand isn’t worth the effort. A morale check determines whether the roc flees.

Given a choice of two succulent or easy targets, rocs usually select the larger (a camel instead of its rider, for example). However, any roc can seize two different targets with its claws, provided the targets are within 10 feet of one another. The twoheaded roc can also attack two targets within 10 feet.choosing either two bite attacks or two claw attacks.

Given their intelligence, the great roc and two-headed roc may use rather sophisticated combat tactics. To prevent annoyances, for example, a great roc may scatter or destroy pesky shepherds before settling down to dine upon livestock.

The more intelligent species also use large boulders as “nutcrackers,” dropping the stones from the air to sink ships or demolish structures, exposing the “softer meat” inside. Such boulders inflict 3 to 30 (3d10) points of damage normally, and require ships, walls, and towers to make saving throws vs. crushing blow or be destroyed. A two- headed roc can make two boulder attacks per round.

Habitat/Society: All roc species share a number of traits. They build their nests upon the tallest mountain, rocky outcrop, or perch in their territory, using branches and even whole trees in the construction. They are not social creatures. Each is highly territorial, especially against invasions by other rocs (excluding a suitable mate) and other large, flying creatures (such as the occasional dragon). A typical roc territory is a circle with a 10- mile radius, placing at least 20 miles between two nests.

If a roc nest is found, there is a 15 percent chance that it contains either 1d4 +1 eggs or 1d4 +1 hatchlings. (Roll 1d100; 01-50 indicates eggs, and 51-00 indicates hatchlings.) Hatchlings are 4 HD each, but relatively helpless, with an AC of 10 and no attacks. Adults will fight to the death (morale of fearless, 18) to protect their eggs or young, gaining a +1 bonus to attacks. After six months in the nest, a roc has grown enough to leave it, and the roc gains the combat statistics of an adult.

All rocs feed at least three times daily: just after sunrise, at midday, and an hour before sunset. If there are young in the nest, there will be a midafternoon feeding flight as well. Heroes accustomed to being raised from the dead after mischances in the wilderness should beware: like many other birds, rocs partially digest their prey for their chicks, grinding it in a stone-filled gullet before they regurgitate it. While this has no effect on their chances of being raised, adventurers should plan on a long (and unpleasant) recovery period thereafter.

When dealing with humans or humanoids, great rocs tend to imperious, quickly becoming bored and hungry. Two-headed are more sly and (given their own evil bent) may be persuade aid in some villainy if the result will be a lot of dead herd animals.

Rocs do not value treasure except for its value as a shiny bauble. Male two-headed rocs build nests and festoon them with such treasure in hopes of attracting mates. A cheap but gleaming gem appeals to these males more than a dull but priceless ore. Common and great rocs have no such compulsion; they leave their riches strewn carelessly about their nests like trash. Most of their treasures are the inedible remains of pack animals-tack and harness, rugs, silks, tapestries, clothing, spices, perfume, caravan bells, and the occasional bar of metal or gemstone.

Ecology: All rocs are difficult to raise, given their independent nature and huge appetites. Individual adventurers have been known to train roc chicks. Some sorcerers have ensnared rocs magically. According to legend, a tribe of jann near the World Pillars has even used rocs as mounts, but the story.s veracity is questionable.

Rocs prey on the largest surmountable creatures they can find in their area. On land, they attack elephants, camels, purple worm ankhegs, and giants, and few rocs will pass up a light snack of undefended humans. At sea, they hunt like ospreys, snagging dolphins, elephant seals, and sharks from the water. The great rocs will even carry off kraken, giant squid, sea serpents, and whales, in addition to attacking ships. Even mated pairs of common rocs have been known to attack a sailing vessel or a dragon.

Roc eggs are valued as an exotic item or curiosity, and as a component for magical potions and oils. The egg of a common roc is the color of ivory. A great roc’s stunning eggs are dappled with shades of turquoise and indigo, while a two-headed roc’s are jet black. A merchant will pay 2d6 x 100 gp for the egg of an ordinary roc, twice that for the egg of a two-headed roc, and twice that again (2d6 x 400) for the egg of a great roc. Such eggs must be kept continually warm if they are to hatch, for the unborn chicks are sensitive to cold, and without the protection of their parent on the nest would soon perish. The inability to hatch does not diminish an egg’s value as a curiosity, however.

Originally appeared in Land of Fate (1992).


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## Shade (Feb 2, 2010)

Here's the roc from the 2e Monstrous Manual for comparison...

*Roc*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subtropical/Mountains 
FREQUENCY: Rare 
ORGANIZATION: Solitary 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day 
DIET: Omnivore 
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1) 
TREASURE: C 
ALIGNMENT: Neutral 
NO. APPEARING: 1-2 
ARMOR CLASS: 4 
MOVEMENT: 3, Fl 30 
HIT DICE: 18 
THAC0: 3 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 or 1 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-18/3-18 or 4-24 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Surprise 
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil 
SIZE: G (60' long+wingspan) 
MORALE: Steady (11) 
XP VALUE: 10,000 

Looking almost too big to be real, rocs are huge birds of prey that dwell in warm mountainous regions and are known for carrying off large animals (cattle, horses, elephants) for food.

Rocs resemble large eagles, with either dark brown plumage or all golden feathers from head to tail. In a few rare instances, rocs of all red, black or white are sighted, but such sightings are often considered bad omens. These giant birds are 60 feet long from beak to tail feathers, with wingspans as wide as 120 feet.

Combat: The roc swoops down upon prey, seizes it in powerful talons, and carries it off to the roc's lair to be devoured at leisure. The resulting damage is 3d6 per claw. Most of the time (95%), a roc carries off its prey only if both claws hit. If the prey was hit by only one claw, the roc usually lets go, then turns around and attempts another grab. Once the prey has been secured, the roc flies back to its nest. If the creature resists, the roc strikes with its beak, inflicting 4d6 points of damage per hit.

Should a human, humanoid, or demihuman be captured, there is a 65% chance that the victim's arms are both pinned to his sides, making impossible melee weapon attacks or spellcasting that requires hand gestures. A roc will let go of its prey if it suffers damage equal to a quarter of its hit points. A roc can pick up two targets simultaneously if they are within 10 feet of each other.

A roc usually cruises at a height of about 300 feet, seeking out likely prey with its sharp eyes. When a good target is found, it swoops down silently. The stealth of this first attack imposes a -5 penalty to its opponents' surprise rolls.

Habitat/Society: Roc lairs are vast nests made of trees, branches, and the like. They inhabit the highest mountains in warm regions. Rocs are not given to nesting close to each other, with a nest rarely being located within 20 miles of another nest. There is a 15% chance of finding 1d4+1 eggs in a roc nest. These eggs sell for 2d6 x 100 gp to merchants specializing in exotic items. As may be expected, rocs fight to the death to protect these nests and their contents, gaining a +1 bonus to their attack roll.

The treasure of a roc is usually strewn about and below the nest, for the creature does not value such. It is the residue from its victims. If the roc has been seizing pack horses and mules, some of that treasure may be merchant's wares such as spices, rugs, tapestries, perfume, rich clothing, or jewels.

The roc ranges for food three times a day; about an hour after sunrise, at noon, and an hour before sunset. If there are young in the nest, a fourth feeding, approximately two hours after noon, is added to keep the young strong and well-fed.

Ecology: Rocs are occasionally tamed and used by cloud or storm giants. Good-aligned giants do not allow their rocs to attack civilized areas and the animals therein.

As mentioned before, rocs do not nest too closely together, since such a high concentration of these hungry predators would deprive entire regions of its animal population. Rocs serve to keep down the number of large predators, as they are fond of ankheg, purple worms, and harpies. Thanks to the rocs' prodigious appetites, these creatures are not swarming about with impunity.

It is said that roc feathers can be used in the manufacture of Quaal's feather tokens, as well as wings and brooms of flying.

One race that has little love for rocs is dwarves. Dwarven mines located in remote mountains often have to contend with unruly rocs intent on protecting their territory. Attempts by the dwarves to tame rocs have all met with failure, so the accepted manner of dealing with rocs is to kill them and smash their eggs. Adventurers who happen on a community of mountain dwarves may find employment as roc hunters. Such groups would do well not to allow any druids to find this out.


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## freyar (Feb 2, 2010)

Is the common Zakharan roc just the same as the MM roc with slightly different environment and maybe a slightly different grab?  Kind of looks like it (that's a lot of text, though!).  Especially given the 3e Snatch feat for the roc, I might just say that the common one is just the regular SRD roc.


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## Shade (Feb 2, 2010)

I supsect you are correct.   It seems just flavor differences.

So, start with great roc?


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## GrayLinnorm (Feb 2, 2010)

For starters, change the creature type (especially for the two-headed variety) to magical beast.


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## Cleon (Feb 2, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks good to me.




Looks OK, we might as well move on to the next one...

Ooh! Three Rocs for the price of one.

Shall we do these one at a time, in order?

The Common Roc is essentially identical to the standard 2nd edition Roc.

We could just say it's the same as the SRD Roc, but I'd be game for giving it slightly tweaked stats.

First, I'd change the Type to Magical Beast - there's a reason they look "too big to be real". Nothing natural that size should be able to fly, and it means all the Zakharan Rocs will be the same Type (although I can see them being different if you'd prefer). 

This will up its Hit Dice to 18d10+126 (225hp) increase its Base Attack Bonus to BAB +18 and hence add 5 to its attacks and Grapple.

Next, I'd fancy boosting its Strength and natural weapons a tad. 

The SRD Roc's Strength 34 means it can fly with up to 7456 pounds - the weight of an average African Bull Elephant. I'd like to up that to Str 38, so it can fly with up to 12,800 pounds - the weight of a little whale or a record-sized elephant.

As for the claws and bite, I would like to increase both of the SRD Roc's attacks by a size step to  3d6 talons and 3d8 bite. That's more or less the same dice as the 2nd edition version.

Oh, and I'd be tempted to add "island forests" to the Environment, since there are tales of them nesting on the ground in such places rather than using mountain-top eyries (or should that be roceries?).

That's about all I'd want to do to them. Applying these changes to the SRD Roc would yield the following. I didn't modified the Challenge Rating - do you think it's enough of a boost to make it CR10?

*Roc, Zakharan, Common Roc
* Size/Type: Gargantuan Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 18d10+126 (225 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 80 ft. (average)
Armor Class: 17 (-4 size, +2 Dex, +9 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +18/+44
Attack: Talon +28 melee (3d6+14)
Full Attack: 2 talons +28 melee (3d6+14) and bite +26 melee (3d8+7)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +18, Ref +13, Will +9
Abilities: Str 38, Dex 15, Con 24, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 11
Skills: Hide -3, Listen +10, Spot +14
Feats: Alertness, Flyby Attack, Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack, Snatch, Wingover
Environment: Warm mountains and island forests
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 10
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 19-32 HD (Gargantuan); 33-54 (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: —

A Zakharan common roc has brilliant, multicolored plumage. Their wings and backs are typically a shade of green or gold and their beaks range from pale ivory to a rich shade of brass. The leading edge of their wings is a vibrant crimson. Male common rocs have crests of the same crimson hue, while females have snowy white breasts.

These enormous creatures are 60 feet long from their beak to the end of their 20-foot long tail feathers, with wingspans as wide as 120 feet. A typical Zakharan common roc weighs between 25000 and 30,000 pounds.


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## freyar (Feb 3, 2010)

I'd think you could boost the CR to 10 for that.  I do think the Zakharan common roc was probably intended to be a reprint of the standard roc, but it is there separately.  Plus it makes sense to have all three be magical beasts.  Sure, I can go for that.


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## Cleon (Feb 3, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'd think you could boost the CR to 10 for that.  I do think the Zakharan common roc was probably intended to be a reprint of the standard roc, but it is there separately.  Plus it makes sense to have all three be magical beasts.  Sure, I can go for that.




Glad we agreed.  Let's make it CR10.

I'll also note the Zakharan Common Roc appears to be bigger than the standard 3E version, since it has a wingspan "as wide as 120 feet" compared to the SRD's "as wide as 80 feet". 

So let's up the dimensions and weight a bit, which would also help explain the higher Strength. We could change it to something like "These enormous creatures are 60 feet long from their beak to the end of their 20-foot long tail feathers, with wingspans as wide as 120 feet. A typical Zakharan common roc weighs between 25000 and 30,000 pounds."

I think that'll do, unless you can see something else that needs tweaking.

I'll edit my previous post to change the Challenge Rating and add a description.


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## Cleon (Feb 3, 2010)

Oh, and there's some mention of training Rocs in the original version, do we want to add a "Training a Zahkaran Common Roc" subentry?


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## freyar (Feb 3, 2010)

SRD rocs don't have a training entry, so maybe I wouldn't.  But it's not a big deal to me; just remember that the DCs are harder for magical beasts.


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## Shade (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm still not convinced that these warrant a separate conversion, but since you've already done most of the work, I'll be happy to add 'em to Homebrews.

I think we can skip the training section, as these things are too huge and too high-CR to really serve as mounts.


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## Cleon (Feb 3, 2010)

freyar said:


> SRD rocs don't have a training entry, so maybe I wouldn't.  But it's not a big deal to me; just remember that the DCs are harder for magical beasts.




Might as well. I was thinking of something like the following:
*Training A Zakharan Common Roc*
 A Zakharan common roc can be trained to perform various tasks if they are tamed by raising them from the egg, but this is a very difficult endeavour. Raising a Zakharan common roc from the egg requires fifteen weeks of work and a DC 35 Handle Animal check.

 The tamed Zakharan common roc can then be trained for the purposes of Combat Riding, Fighting, Hunting or Riding as per the Handle Animal skill, except the DCs are 10 higher than the defaults. For example, training a Zakharan common roc to bear a rider in combat requires six weeks of work and a DC 30 Handle Animal check. Riding a roc requires an exotic saddle. A roc can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check.

 Zakharan common roc eggs are worth *18000* gp apiece on the open market, while young are worth *36000* gp each. Professional trainers charge *2000* gp per week to rear or train a Zakharan common roc.

A combat-trained Zakharan common roc is worth at least *6**0000* gp (the combined cost of an egg and 21 weeks of rearing and training), a tame but untrained common roc costs a minimum of *48000* gp.

*Carrying Capacity: *A light load for a Zakharan common roc is up to 12800 pounds; a medium load, 12801-25600 pounds; and a heavy load, 25601-38800 pounds.
​Regarding the crucial matter of cost. The original text says a common roc egg costs 2d6 times 100 gp, but that's obviously way too low going by the SRD examples:

Griffin (7HD, CR4) - eggs 3500 gp, young 7000gp, combat training 1500gp
Giant Eagle/Owl (4HD, CR3) - eggs 2500 gp, young 4000 gp, combat training 1000gp.
Hippogriff (3HD, CR2) - eggs 2000 gp, young 3000 gp, combat training 1000gp.

That looks like magical flying mounts cost 1000 gp/HD as young, and combat training costs 500 gp/CR.

For a Common Roc, that would translate as: eggs 9000gp, chicks 18000gp, combat training 5000 gp.

I fancied making the training costs 1000 gp/week, so a combat-trained Common Roc would cost 30000 gp (9k egg + 15k taming + 6k training).

That still felt too low, so I just doubled all the costs.

Does that feel right to you?

An Iron Golem costs 250% that much (150,000gp) for the same number of Hit Dice, but the golem has immunity to magic and a much better AC. Not to mention you don't have to feed and house a golem.


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## Cleon (Feb 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> I think we can skip the training section, as these things are too huge and too high-CR to really serve as mounts.




Too late.


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## Shade (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm still not fond of the idea of PCs having something so massive as a pet.  At least an iron golem can travel through a dungeon with 'em.

I'd rather leave the potential for training up to the DM, rather than set out the rules for it.

Sorry!


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## Cleon (Feb 3, 2010)

Alright then, I don't mind dropping the Training Rules.

Since this leaves the Common Roc pretty well done as it is, shall we move on to the Great Roc?

We can get most of the way there by upsizing the Common Roc to a *24 Hit Dice Colossal Magical Beast*, increasing its Intelligence to *Int 6* and having it speak *Common *and *Auran*.

It gets an extra 6 skill points and 2 feats from its higher Hit Dice. The skill points should probably be equally divided between Listen and Spot, but what do you fancy for the feats? It's got enough HD to be eligible for Epic Feats, so I'm tempted by *Epic Will* (to give it a +16 Will save) plus *Hover* (so it can make mid-air full attacks while blasting opponents with its downdraft).

The Great Roc's a slower flier (30" vs 24") so I'd drop its speed to fly *60 ft.*

It also has a 2 point better AC, so I'd better up the NA up a bit - I think I'll aim for *AC 20*, for the sake of argument.

Apart from that, I'm thinking it could deserve an increase to its Wisdom and Charisma (maybe +2 apiece for *Wis 15*, *Cha 13*?) and it has a couple of special abilities - rock-dropping and communicating with Common Rocs.

*Boulder-Dropping* - are we making these boulders 3d10 damage like the entry says, or shall we have them do heftier damage? Hmm, a cloud giant throws a Huge rock for 2d8 damage, if we scale it up from that a Great Roc would drop a 6d8 damage boulder and Two-Headed Roc drops 2 4d8 boulders. That seems more appropriate to me.

I'm also wondering whether the Boulder-Dropping damage is doubled in a dive - solely because I like the idea of a dive bombing Colossal Roc!

*Communicating with Common Rocs* - maybe we could expand this so it can talk to any predatory bird (Giant Eagles, Owls, et cetera)?

Putting it all together, I'm suggesting:

 *Roc, Zakharan, Great Roc
*Colossal Magical Beast
*Hit Dice:* 24d10+216 (348 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 60 ft. (average)
*Armor Class:* 20 (–8 size, +2 Dex, +16 natural), touch 4, flat-footed 18
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +24/+58
*Attack:* Talon +34 melee (4d6+18) or boulder +18 ranged (special)
*Full Attack:* 2 talons +34 melee (4d6+18) and bite +32 melee (4d8+9) or boulder +18 ranged (special)
*Space/Reach:* 30 ft./20 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Boulder-dropping
*Special Qualities:* low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +23, Ref +16, Will +12
*Abilities:* Str 46, Dex 15, Con 28, Int 6, Wis 15, Cha 13
*Skills:* Hide -7, Listen +13, Spot +17
*Feats:* Alertness, Flyby Attack, Hover, Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack, Snatch, Wingover *plus one more (Epic Will?)*
*Environment:* Warm mountains and island forests
*Organization:* Solitary or pair
*Challenge Rating:* 13
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 25-72 (Colossal)
*Level Adjustment:* —

A Zakharan great roc has brilliant, multicoloured plumage. Their wings and backs are typically a shade of green or gold and their beaks range from pale ivory to a rich shade of brass. The leading edge of their wings is a glorious azure blue. Male great rocs have crests of the same bright blue hue, while females have snowy white breasts. The egg of a great roc is the colour of ivory, dappled with beautiful patterns of turquoise and indigo.

These enormous creatures are 120 feet long from their beak to the tip of their 40-foot long tail feathers, with wingspans as wide as 270 feet. A typical Zakharan great roc weighs between 200,000 and 250,000 pounds.

Zakharan great rocs speak Auran and Common and can speak with any avian creature (as if using a _speak with animals_ spell).

*Combat*
A roc attacks from the air, swooping earthward to snatch prey in its powerful talons and carry it off for itself and its young to devour. A solitary roc is typically hunting and will attack any Medium or larger creature that appears edible. A mated pair of rocs attack in concert, fighting to the death to defend their nests or hatchlings.

Zakharan great rocs like to crack tough opponents, ships or fortifications by dropping boulders from the sky.

*Boulder-Dropping (Ex):* ?

*Skills*
Rocs have a +4 racial bonus on Spot checks.


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## Shade (Feb 3, 2010)

Definitely Hover...I'm not as keen on Epic Will.  Let's see if we can find something more dynamic.

The Colossal mountain giant has this ability, somewhat reminiscent of the boulder dropping:

Fling (Ex): A mountain giant who sucessfully grapples a foe two or more size categories smaller than itself can hurl the creature as a standard action. A flung creature travels up to 120 feet and takes 12d6 points of damage. A creature that is flung off a mountain takes this amount of damage or the appropriate falling damage, whichever is greater. The giant also can throw the flung creature as though it were a boulder. In this case, the flung creature takes 12d6+16 points of damage, and any opponent it strikes takes 4d8+16 points of damage.

I think we might emulate this, giving a flat base damage for the boulder, or using falling damage if the amount is greater (when dropped from great heights).

We can borrow this, replacing "serpentine" with "avian"...

Serpent lords speak Common and can speak with any serpentine creature (as if using a speak with animals spell).


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## Cleon (Feb 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> Definitely Hover...I'm not as keen on Epic Will.  Let's see if we can find something more dynamic.




That's pretty close to my feeling. I'll add hover but leave Epic Will as a questionable.

Oh blast, I forgot to modify the Hide skill for its greater size, better fix that as well.



Shade said:


> The Colossal mountain giant has this ability, somewhat reminiscent of the boulder dropping:
> 
> Fling (Ex): A mountain giant who sucessfully grapples a foe two or more size categories smaller than itself can hurl the creature as a standard action. A flung creature travels up to 120 feet and takes 12d6 points of damage. A creature that is flung off a mountain takes this amount of damage or the appropriate falling damage, whichever is greater. The giant also can throw the flung creature as though it were a boulder. In this case, the flung creature takes 12d6+16 points of damage, and any opponent it strikes takes 4d8+16 points of damage.
> 
> I think we might emulate this, giving a flat base damage for the boulder, or using falling damage if the amount is greater (when dropped from great heights).




So the boulder does, say 6d8+18 or 1d6 per 10 feet it's dropped, whichever is greater?

Hold on a moment, there's damage for falling objects rules in the SRD...

Here we are, 1d6 per 10 feet per 200 pounds, max 20d6.

A Great Roc (Colossal Str 46) can fly with a load up to 78,336 pounds which works out as...

391d6 per 10 foot dropped, to a maximum of 7820d6.

Think we'd better drop that idea, seven thousand eight hundred and twenty six-sided dice of damage is a bit more than even I was contemplating.

Maybe if we change the dice size. The original version does 3d10, so we could set it to 1d10 per ten feet (minimum 3d10). 20d10 damage is quite a bit, but not too bad for 13th level PCs. If we give it a poor range increment (say, 20 feet) it would not have a good chance of hitting its target at that range.

Another problem is the Two-Headed Roc drops two boulders simultaneously. Do we want its boulders to potentially do double the Great Roc's damage? Perhaps we should have the Bicephalic Roc's rocks' do 1d6 per 10 feet instead? That's still more than the Great Rock, but it's only 27% more instead of 100% more.



Shade said:


> We can borrow this, replacing "serpentine" with "avian"...
> 
> Serpent lords speak Common and can speak with any serpentine creature (as if using a speak with animals spell).




Works for me,  I'll add it in.


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## Cleon (Feb 3, 2010)

Oh, and here's a minor question.

Since the Great Roc is a sapient being, do we want to change its alignment from "Always neutral" to "Usually neutral"?

I'm thinking we can keep it "Always neutral" - it has the same Intelligence and Type as a Griffon, and that's Always Neutral.


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2010)

On the dropping damage, I think we should use the SRD falling objects rules.  Remember, there's a 20d6 max.  Perhaps add double Str bonus to dropping due to the roc pushing it off?  Let's worry about the 2-headed one later.

Always neutral works for me.  I don't mind relatively rigid alignments.


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## Cleon (Feb 4, 2010)

freyar said:


> On the dropping damage, I think we should use the SRD falling objects rules.  Remember, there's a 20d6 max.  Perhaps add double Str bonus to dropping due to the roc pushing it off?  Let's worry about the 2-headed one later.




Reading the SRD again, it looks like I misinterpreted it. Rather than 1d6 per 10 feet per 200 pounds (max 20d6), instead it is:

1d6 per 200 pounds for the first 10 feet (no max) plus 1d6 per additional 10 feet (max 20d6).

That gives it a maximum boulder damage of 391+20 = 411d6, which is a little more reasonable.

I think the easiest thing to do is just assume it's dropping much littler boulders (pebble-sized to the Roc) so the base damage is lower.

So, how many d6s do you fancy?

How about we peg it to roughly the average damage of its full attack routine.

 Two talons @ 4d6+18 plus a beak @ 4d8+9 averages...  2*(14+18) + (18+9) = 91 hit points of damage.

91 / 3.5 => 26d6 damage!

Round it down to 25d6 damage plus 1d6 per additional 10 feet, or make it 20d6 plus 1d6 per 10 feet  for a maximum of 40d6?

20d6 would mean it's dropping a 4000 pounds boulder, 25d6 a 5000 pound boulder.




freyar said:


> Always neutral works for me.  I don't mind relatively rigid alignments.




Suits me.


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2010)

20d6 seems too high.  It is on par with a CR 21 ancient green dragon's breath weapon, although it won't hit multiple targets.

40d6 would roughly equate to an ancient red dragon's breath.  At CR 26, that is waaaaay out of this great roc's league.

So I'd propose we either retool the dropped boulders ability to not account for weight (just using a flat amount or normal falling damage, whichever is better), or raise the HD on the bird and make it a truly epic monstrosity.


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2010)

Yes, let's just say it only drops rocks of up to PC weight, so the damage is just normal falling damage.  That can still get pretty high, but we can make it a ranged attack with a smallish range increment to make it hard to hit.


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## Cleon (Feb 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> 20d6 seems too high.  It is on par with a CR 21 ancient green dragon's breath weapon, although it won't hit multiple targets.




I agree 20d6 is a lot, but remember it can do the equivalent of 26d6 full-attacking with its claws and bite and only affects one target.

We can keep the max damage down by cutting its range. If it is treated as a missile weapon with a 10 ft. range increment, it can do a max of 29d6 with a 100 foot drop, but at -10 to hit, and any higher than that it can't reliably hit something.

Alternatively, we allow the target a Reflex save to dodge the boulder AND have an attack roll.



Shade said:


> So I'd propose we either retool the dropped boulders ability to not account for weight (just using a flat amount or normal falling damage, whichever is better), or raise the HD on the bird and make it a truly epic monstrosity.




Well I have nothing against making it an epic monstrosity...


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## Cleon (Feb 6, 2010)

freyar said:


> Yes, let's just say it only drops rocks of up to PC weight, so the damage is just normal falling damage.  That can still get pretty high, but we can make it a ranged attack with a smallish range increment to make it hard to hit.




But that would mean it'd be pretty pointless for the Roc to use that attack. It could do 8d6+36 damage with a diving Flyby attack AND get to add Power Attack to it for the same damage and the option of Snatching its prey.

If the boulder doesn't do similar or greater damage, why would it bother?

Not to mention a Great Roc would look like it's tossing pebbles if it drops 200 lb stones.


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## freyar (Feb 7, 2010)

Ok, Cleon, this boggles my mind.  I think you're misreading the SRD again.  It says


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage).



To me, that clearly says figure out the damage dice first by weight then extra damage for distance, then cap it all at 20d6.  (Though you can argue about whether it's 1d6/200lb/10ft or 1d6/200lb +1d6/10ft.)  Also, this is based on the falling rules, which have a max cap at 20d6.

As for why it would bother -- because it's cool!  Besides, dropping a 200 lb "pebble" for 20d6 would be similar damage.  As for the range increment, I was just trying to get Shade to go along with it.   I like the 20d6 damage.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2010)

Yeah, I believe freyar's interpretation is correct.

Also, Flyby Attack doesn't allow a full attack, nor does it prevent attacks of opportunity, so it's a much riskier endeavor with a lesser damage payout.


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## freyar (Feb 9, 2010)

Ok, so can we just settle on using regular falling object damage rules for the rocks?  If so, what range increment and how many for dropping the rocks?


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2010)

Yeah, I think that'll suffice.

Four range increments of 50 ft.?


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## freyar (Feb 10, 2010)

That's fine by me.  At greater distances, should the aim be considered essentially random?


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## Cleon (Feb 11, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ok, Cleon, this boggles my mind.  I think you're misreading the SRD again.  It says
> 
> To me, that clearly says figure out the damage dice first by weight then extra damage for distance, then cap it all at 20d6.  (Though you can argue about whether it's 1d6/200lb/10ft or 1d6/200lb +1d6/10ft.)  Also, this is based on the falling rules, which have a max cap at 20d6.
> 
> As for why it would bother -- because it's cool!  Besides, dropping a 200 lb "pebble" for 20d6 would be similar damage.  As for the range increment, I was just trying to get Shade to go along with it.   I like the 20d6 damage.






Shade said:


> Yeah, I believe freyar's interpretation is correct.
> 
> Also, Flyby Attack doesn't allow a full attack, nor does it prevent attacks of opportunity, so it's a much riskier endeavor with a lesser damage payout.




I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. It seems quite clear to me the 20d6 cap is on the extra damage from the distance fallen, not the basic amount.

And I'd allowed for the inability not to make a full attack with a Flyby attack, my quoted damage of 8d6+36 was for a diving great roc with a single claw attack. Dives deal double damage with claw or talon attacks according to the SRD.

Anyhow, I guess I'll leave it up to you to settle on the boulder damage and just reserve my own figure for domestic use.


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## Cleon (Feb 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, I think that'll suffice.
> 
> Four range increments of 50 ft.?




I'd prefer to use five range increments (like a thrown weapon) or ten range increments (like a missile weapon), just for consistency's sake.

Preferably 5 range increments, since it's basically rock-throwing.



freyar said:


> That's fine by me.  At greater distances, should the aim be considered essentially random?




That's what I would think, yes.


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2010)

5 range increments is fine.

As to the damage cap, I'm almost curious enough to ask in the 3e rules forum.


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## Cleon (Feb 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> 5 range increments is fine.
> 
> As to the damage cap, I'm almost curious enough to ask in the 3e rules forum.




Don't do it freyar, for that way lies madness!

You'll risk getting into arguments as to whether a PC can fall down an infinitely tall staircase, so long as each step is too short to do hit points of damage, and then the subject of the Grappling Rules will come up...

No, it's not worth the risk to your sanity.


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2010)

Didn't the infinite staircase come with its own falling damage rules? 

Ok, I think we need to wait for a homebrews to make any more progress (or do we have one that I just forgot about?).


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## Shade (Feb 16, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I'd rather find something a bit more exciting than Epic Will for the additional feat.  If it's not another epic feat, we can simply swap Epic Will for Iron Will, though.


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## Cleon (Feb 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I'd rather find something a bit more exciting than Epic Will for the additional feat.  If it's not another epic feat, we can simply swap Epic Will for Iron Will, though.




Well how about Dire Charge? We'd need to swap one of its other feats for Improved Initiative as the prerequisite - maybe Wingover, since a bird that big could be too massive to manoeuvre that quickly.

That would change its stats to:

Initiative: +6
Feats: Alertness, Flyby Attack, Hover, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack, Snatch
Epic Feat: Dire Charge


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2010)

Sounds reasonable!


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2010)

Updated.

Ready for the two-headed variety?


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## Cleon (Feb 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Ready for the two-headed variety?




We can as far as I'm concerned.

I'll just give the Great Roc a quick once over to make sure we haven't missed anything...

The Great Roc's statblock doesn't have an Epic Feat line for the Dire Charge, it is just stuck in with the standard feats.

The description has "The wing tips of a common Zakharan roc are azure." when it should obviously be "*great *Zakharan roc".

...Nothing worth arguing over, so shall we move on to the double-header?


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2010)

Cleon said:


> The Great Roc's statblock doesn't have an Epic Feat line for the Dire Charge, it is just stuck in with the standard feats.




It is actually standard to list the epic feats among the normal feats, post-Epic Level Handbook.  I prefer that method myself, as it cuts out a(n unnecessary) line.

The two-headed variety looks to be a smarter version of the standard variety, with an extra bite attack.   I strongly suggest that we drop the second boulder attack for these things, as that will boost their damage far outside their relative power level.   Besides, just because it has an extra head doesn't necessitate doubling all potential attacks.


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## Cleon (Feb 21, 2010)

My internet started acting up and I got a duplicated post.

Nothing to see here, just move along...


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## Cleon (Feb 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> It is actually standard to list the epic feats among the normal feats, post-Epic Level Handbook.  I prefer that method myself, as it cuts out a(n unnecessary) line.




Oh right, I prefer it as a separate line, because it makes it obvious were to look for the feat. Different strokes for different folks and all.


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## Cleon (Feb 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> The two-headed variety looks to be a smarter version of the standard variety, with an extra bite attack.   I strongly suggest that we drop the second boulder attack for these things, as that will boost their damage far outside their relative power level.   Besides, just because it has an extra head doesn't necessitate doubling all potential attacks.




That's more or less my thinking. Just give a Common Roc the same intelligence, language and rock-dropping as a Great Roc and we're most of the way there, plus the two-header is also slower than a Common (24" like a Great Roc).

The only significant mechanical difference is the 2-headed has 16 Hit Dice. 

Do we want to keep its HD lower than the similarly-sized Common Roc?

Most multiheaded 3E monsters I can think of have more HD than their monocephalic brethren, so we could consider boosting its HD to 20 or 21.

If we go for 16HD we'll have to decide which of a Common Roc's feats to drop.

I would drop Alertness and boost its racial bonuses on Spot and Listen, since it has two heads to watch for enemies.

I'd also swap its Wingover for the Hover feat, so it can fight like the 2-Headed Roc Harryhausen animated in the film _*The 7th Voyage of Sinbad*_ - striking out with talons and beaks while hanging in midair.

Not much else to do apart from change its flavour text.


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## freyar (Feb 22, 2010)

Weird that the HD are lower (also lower than the regular 2e roc)!  Part of me would like to increase the HD, but it seems the design intent is clear.  Shade?


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## Shade (Feb 22, 2010)

Let's boost it to 20 HD.  The lesser HD, I assume, must have been an attempt at a balancing mechanic for the double attacks.  With the CR system in place, we can simply reflect it that way.  

Added to Homebrews.

Skills: Hide -3, Listen +10, Spot +14, 2 more ranks   (Put 'em in Spot?)

Challenge Rating: 11 or 12

Alignment: Usually chaotic evil?


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## Cleon (Feb 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's boost it to 20 HD.  The lesser HD, I assume, must have been an attempt at a balancing mechanic for the double attacks.  With the CR system in place, we can simply reflect it that way.
> 
> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Skills: Hide -3, Listen +10, Spot +14, 2 more ranks   (Put 'em in Spot?)




What about my suggestion of giving it better sense bonuses for having two heads? Say, racial bnuses of +8 Spot and +4 Listen. Maybe do that, then put one of the extra points in each sense skill for Skills: Hide -3, Listen +15, Spot +19.



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 11 or 12




For the Challenge Rating I'm thinking CR11 at the moment. They do more damage, but have little in the way of special attacks. It's pretty close to CR12, so if we give it another minor ability (like All-Around Vision for its 2 heads?) I'd be OK with Challenge Rating 12.




Shade said:


> Alignment: Usually chaotic evil?




Usually's good for the alignment.


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## Shade (Mar 1, 2010)

All-around vision and the improved skill bonuses sound good.

A few other things we might borrow from the multiheaded creature template:

Improved Initiative and Combat Reflexes as bonus feats
Each additional head a creature has gives it a cumulative +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
Darkvision to a range of 90 feet
Having a redundant head makes a creature more able to survive otherwise lethal attacks. Thus a vorpal blade would have to remove all heads to have its usual effect. (That seems obvious, but we might note that in the flavor text.)


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## Cleon (Mar 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> All-around vision and the improved skill bonuses sound good.
> 
> A few other things we might borrow from the multiheaded creature template:
> 
> ...




I like all those proposals except for the increased darkvision, which I'd rather keep at 60 ft.

Which of the racial bonuses shall we give it?

+8 racial bonus to Spot, +4 racial to Listen (an extra +4 as in my previous post)

+6 racial bonuses on Spot and +2 racial on Listen and Search (an extra +2 as per the multi-headed template)

Or combine the two:

+8 racial bonus to Spot, +4 racial to Listen, +2 racial to Search


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2010)

All-around vision generally grants a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Search checks, so I'd lean toward option #3, with Search boosted to +4.

Updated.


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## freyar (Mar 4, 2010)

This looks good to me.  Are we done?


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## Cleon (Mar 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> All-around vision generally grants a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Search checks, so I'd lean toward option #3, with Search boosted to +4.
> 
> Updated.




I have no objection to that.


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## Cleon (Mar 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> This looks good to me.  Are we done?




I think we're done statwise.

Do we want to tweak their flavour text to mention their cruel and extortionate nature?


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I think we're done statwise.
> 
> Do we want to tweak their flavour text to mention their cruel and extortionate nature?



Go for it!


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## Cleon (Mar 6, 2010)

freyar said:


> Go for it!




Something like:

"Two-headed rocs are noted for their sly intelligence and evil disposition. They extort food and fealty from small settlements, and kill and destroy out of sheer malice. A two-headed roc may be persuaded to aid in some villainy if the result will be a lot of dead herd animals.

Male two-headed rocs also collect shiny baubles to line their nests in hopes of attracting mates. The monetary value of such treasures is not important to these monsters; they would slaughter a wedding party to steal the cheap but highly-polished pewter-gilt dishes, but ignore a pile of dull but priceless uncut diamonds."


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2010)

Looks good!

Updated.


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## freyar (Mar 8, 2010)

All done then?


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## Cleon (Mar 9, 2010)

freyar said:


> All done then?




Just let me give the entry a quick double-check...

...Grapple +16? Sorely Shome Mishtake?

BAB 20 + Str 14 + Size 12 = +46 Grapple.

I'm thinking Shade just hit the wrong key by accident.

Apart from that, if the collect shiny trinkets the treasure entry should reflect that. (no pun intended )

*Treasure:* 25% coins, 50% goods (only shiny gems and jewelery) ?


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2010)

Updated.


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## Cleon (Mar 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.




Looks good to me, what's up next?


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## Number 6 (Mar 15, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Looks good to me, what's up next?




Can anybody join in?
Selfishly, I'm thinking of Nasnas... since I'm thinking of using them in one of my upcoming game nights.

I've enjoyed the work you folks put in so far.


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## GrayLinnorm (Mar 16, 2010)

I'd like to see the tasked genies (wonder why they were never converted in an official work?).


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## Shade (Mar 16, 2010)

*Nasnas *
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Isolated strongholds and ruins
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Tribal
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE:  Low (7)
TREASURE: M (Q, D)
ALIGNMENT: Lawful Evil
NO. APPEARING: 3-30
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 2+2
THAC0: 17(19)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type +5
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Fear
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Iron or magic weapons to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M
MORALE: Steady (12)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 270

Nasnas are humanoid with only half a body: one arm, one leg, half a face and half a torso. They are the creation of evil priests and wizards desiring vigilant guardians to secure their strongholds. Nasnas look like normal human fighters, except that the right or left half of their body is missing. Their skin has a grayish tinge to it, and their single eye glints with evil insanity. They move about by hopping on their single leg. Although this may appear awkward, they can achieve a reasonable movement rate (9). They are tireless warriors, needing very little food and sleep to survive. They are loyal to the wizard or priest who created them and follow their creators to the death.

A few variants have been encountered with a small, black, bat-like wing protruding from their single shoulder. This wing merely contributes to their fearsome appearance (and perhaps their balance as well). Even with a wing, these nasnas are incapable of flight.

Although nasnas can understand Midani perfectly, they never speak themselves, since they are missing half their vocal cords. Nasnas are only capable of uttering a strange, high-pitched, hooting noise, which can be terrifying to hear. Depending on the volume and tone of the hooting, one can discern the nasnas’s current emotipnal state.

Combat: Nasnas usually wear armor, which reduces their AC to 6, and rely on weapons for their attacks. Most nasnas (75%) wield scimitars, but some have been known to fight using battle axes (15%) or maces (10%) instead. All nasnas have extraordinary Strength in their single arm (18/95), giving them a bonus of +2 on their attack rolls and +5 bonus on damage. 

In combat, their hoots and screams can cause a chilling fear in all opponents within a 10' radius. Those hearing a nasnas’s hooting screams must save vs. spells or stand paralyzed with fear for 2-5 rounds.

Because of their supernatural origins, nasnas can only be hit with iron or magical weapons.

Habitat/Society: Nasnas are vicious guardians and are typically found in the strongholds of evil priests and wizards or near ruins.

Nasnas are the product of depraved magic. First, a special potion is required , which can only be made by an evil wizard or priest of 9th level or higher. The concoction is relatively easy and cheap to make once the formula has been researched. A drop of the wizard’s or priest’s blood poured into the magical brew creates a magical bond between the spell-caster and the nasnas after it is born. A few shady alchemists have been known to make the potion if offered the right price (the buyer must still supply his own blood).

After the potion has been concocted, it must be injected into a succulent fruit, which is then sliced in half. If the spellcaster can somehow convince a woman to eat one of the halves (methods range from conventional trickery to magical coercion), the woman will conceive and in nine months give birth to a nasnas. The mage usually arrives soon afterward to claim his creation.

One nasna can thus be created from each half of an enchanted fruit. However, a woman can only bear one nasna at a time. Evil spell-casters, intent upon creating an army of nasnas, usually have 10-100 innocent women languishing in their strongholds.

However, the depravity of creating nasnas en masse does not usually go unnoticed for long. Women talk, word gets around, people make visits to the ruling caliph, and pretty soon paladins are dispatched to put an end to this evil. As a result, nasnas are most often used as guardians in remote, isolated strongholds.

Ecology: Nasnas are sterile. They mature quickly and live a relatively short life. The twisted magic used in their creation renders them quite insane for the duration of their lives, although, in the interim, they are quite obedient servants. Most find a way to kill themselves before they reach the age of 30. 

Nasnas have little or no role in the world’s ecology, living only to protect and serve their creator. If their creator should ever die, they lose their reason for existence. In such a situation, over half choose suicide, throwing themselves off the nearest cliff or drowning themselves in the closest ocean. The rest wander about the wilderness, supporting themselves by hunting and scavenging for the remainder of their short, tragic lives.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix (1992).


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## Cleon (Mar 16, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Can anybody join in?
> Selfishly, I'm thinking of Nasnas... since I'm thinking of using them in one of my upcoming game nights.
> 
> I've enjoyed the work you folks put in so far.






GrayLinnorm said:


> I'd like to see the tasked genies (wonder why  they were never converted in an official work?).




I'm game to do either, but if #6 fancies using the Nasnas for a game we might as well do it next.

Is that OK by you lot?


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## Shade (Mar 16, 2010)

Peek up one post, and you'll have my answer.


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## Number 6 (Mar 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> Peek up one post, and you'll have my answer.



Sweet... I thank you, but my Al-Qadim group might not thank you. 


These fellas seem to be medium-sized aberrations... and while they might be fairly straight forward to convert, I wonder what to do about creating them. 

Regarding advancement, which has been on my mind for a while... do we worry whether or not the caster needs a Craft Wondrous Item to enchant the fruit, or simply a Craft (alchemy) check (presumably with a couple of weeks of work)?

Also, if the tainted fruit is created like a magical item... do we let them gain Fighter or Warrior levels, or do you count additional levels in on the creation process and require a higher level caster and more material costs?


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## Cleon (Mar 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> Peek up one post, and you'll have my answer.




I must have hopped over your post on my single misshaped leg while drafting my reply.


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## Cleon (Mar 16, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Sweet... I thank you, but my Al-Qadim group might not thank you.
> 
> 
> These fellas seem to be medium-sized aberrations... and while they might be fairly straight forward to convert, I wonder what to do about creating them.




We can probably use a big chunk of our latest Fachan conversion.



Number 6 said:


> Regarding advancement, which has been on my mind for a while... do we worry whether or not the caster needs a Craft Wondrous Item to enchant the fruit, or simply a Craft (alchemy) check (presumably with a couple of weeks of work)?




Craft Wondrous Item would be my preference.



Number 6 said:


> Also, if the tainted fruit is created like a magical item... do we let them gain Fighter or Warrior levels, or do you count additional levels in on the creation process and require a higher level caster and more material costs




They don't seem to have much independent will or motivation, so I doubt many would gain class levels. Just gaining additional Hit Dice as they mature seems more likely.


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## Cleon (Mar 16, 2010)

Shall we start talking stats.

The Fachan we did was Str 19, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 6

Nasnas are Stronger (18/95), so should have Strength 20-21.

"They are tireless warriors, needing very little food and sleep to survive" so presumably have high Cons and possibly Endurance as a bonus feat.

I'm thinking they should have a mediocre dexterity, unlike the agile Fachan. They wear armour but still only have a mediocre AC6 - the AD&D Armour Class of an average goblin.

So, either a mail shirt or hide armour, or something lighter like leather plus a bit of natural armour.

Their propensity for insanity suggests a low Wisdom to me. Maybe around 5-7, like their Intelligence?

 Their fear aura will need a decent Charisma to power it.

How about this for a beginning?

Medium Aberration
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp)
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares) [includes some sort of armour - studded leather?]
Armor Class: 14 (+1 natural, +3 studded leather), touch 10, flat-footed 14
Special Attacks: Fear aura, monodextrous
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., DR X/cold iron or magic
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 11, Con 15, Int 7, Wis 8, Cha 12
Feats: One plus Endurance (B)
Skills: Jump (with racial bonus) plus what else?


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## Number 6 (Mar 17, 2010)

Cleon said:


> ...I'm thinking they should have a mediocre dexterity, unlike the agile Fachan. They wear armour but still only have a mediocre AC6 - the AD&D Armour Class of an average goblin.
> 
> So, either a mail shirt or hide armour, or something lighter like leather plus a bit of natural armour...



One major consideration, albeit a nitpicky one of practicality...

When a spellcaster creates these things he's going to need to pay for keeping them to some extent... if not for a token amount of food, then at least space.  Do we have them "grow" to useful size within a matter of days, weeks, or months?  I suspect you could simply use one of the two lowest standards of living from the Upkeep rules in the DMG.

More importantly, their armor: again, this is going to sound like a very pain-in-the-ass question... but is it custom made, or does the spellcaster buy the armor and hire out some cut rate armorer to slap together two improvized suits for two nasnas?


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## Number 6 (Mar 17, 2010)

Before I go on, I should add that you're quite right about nasnas getting class levels... but I'm not sure about them gaining Hit Dice as the years go on.

Mostly because they are not expected to live very long.  I suspect wizards and clerics would come up with a way to expend more resources to create them with more Hit Dice.  Maybe spellcasters could enchant a fruit for consumption that would create a 2 HD version, a 4 HD version, and a 6 HD version.

Less important, I keep speculating that these things probably don't grow uber-rapidly after birth (such as infant to fighting-form in a matter of days), but perhaps still quite fast (perhaps over the course of one year).


Cleon said:


> ...How about this for a beginning?
> 
> Medium Aberration
> Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp)
> ...



I'm not convinced yet that since they are fairly twisted and insane that they should have a Wisdom score with a negative modifier... in fact in this case they might be all the more strong willed because of their determination to simply remain upright and dangerous.  That said, I wouldn't argue against a low Wisdom for long.


Regarding their ability to cause fear:  Should we assume that under most combat situations, nasnas will hoot and bark and scream, therefore they have a fear aura... or should they have this as a Spell-Like Ability used at will or a number of times per day?


Also, should they get a bump to the Will save DC against the fear effect for multiple nasnas in the area who are screaming and hooting?


Regarding the Damage Reduction, will DR 5 be too lean... or is DR 10 getting too tough?


Regarding skills, I imagine they would have a racial bonus to Balance as well... but I might be too generous.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I don't think they should have class level advancement, but I could see giving them the martial training ability we've given in the past, granting a creature fighter BAB and treated as a fighter of a level equal to its HD for the purposes of qualifying for feats, etc.   I definitely agree with the assessment that they can be advanced to higher HD to reflect creating a more powerful nasnas.

DR 5 seems appropriate for their probably CR.

I don't mind a racial bonus to Balance, and I think we should retain the fachan's +12 racial bonus to Jump.

For the hoot, I'd recommend modifiying this...

Bay (Su): When a shadow mastiff howls or barks, all creatures except evil outsiders within a 300-foot spread must succeed on a DC 13 Will save or become panicked for 2d4 rounds. This is a sonic mind-affecting fear effect. Whether or not the save is successful, an affected creature is immune to the same mastiff ’s bay for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Maybe something like this...

Frightening Hoot (Su): When a nasnas hoots and screams, all creatures except its creator and other nasnas within a 10-foot spread must succeed on a DC X Will save or become frightened (panicked?) for 1d4+1 rounds. This is a sonic mind-affecting fear effect. Whether or not the save is successful, an affected creature is immune to the same nasnas's hoot for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Number 6 (Mar 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> ...Frightening Hoot (Su): When a nasnas hoots and screams, all creatures except its creator and other nasnas within a 10-foot spread must succeed on a DC X Will save or become frightened (panicked?) for 1d4+1 rounds. This is a sonic mind-affecting fear effect. Whether or not the save is successful, an affected creature is immune to the same nasnas's hoot for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.



Hmmm, Panicked... I like the idea that these brutes can cause normal men to go running off in random directions!  

Possibly leaving a few Attacks of Opportunity for the nasnas to claim... or at least a number of targets without Dex modifiers to their AC.


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## Cleon (Mar 17, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> One major consideration, albeit a nitpicky one of practicality...
> 
> When a spellcaster creates these things he's going to need to pay for keeping them to some extent... if not for a token amount of food, then at least space.  Do we have them "grow" to useful size within a matter of days, weeks, or months?  I suspect you could simply use one of the two lowest standards of living from the Upkeep rules in the DMG.




It says they mature quickly, but doesn't say _how_ quickly. I'd prefer it to be a matter of months - say another nine months to reach full growth?

"needing very little food and sleep to survive" suggests a "poor" diet would be enough. The 1sp/day cost for their growth to maturity should be included in their creation cost.



Number 6 said:


> More importantly, their armor: again, this is  going to sound like a very pain-in-the-ass question... but is it custom  made, or does the spellcaster buy the armor and hire out some cut rate  armorer to slap together two improvized suits for two nasnas?




I'd think their bizarre physionomy should mean their armour uses the "Armor for Unusual Creature's" nonhuman costs, so twice the normal price.

That's a good reason for equipping them in something cheap, like leather.


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## Cleon (Mar 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I don't think they should have class level advancement, but I could see giving them the martial training ability we've given in the past, granting a creature fighter BAB and treated as a fighter of a level equal to its HD for the purposes of qualifying for feats, etc.   I definitely agree with the assessment that they can be advanced to higher HD to reflect creating a more powerful nasnas.
> 
> DR 5 seems appropriate for their probably CR.




Giving them Martial Training's a good idea, and DR 5 is fine by me.



Shade said:


> I don't mind a racial bonus to Balance, and I think we should retain the fachan's +12 racial bonus to Jump.




+4 racial to Balance to go with a +12 racial to Jump?



Shade said:


> Maybe something like this...
> 
> Frightening Hoot (Su): When a nasnas hoots and screams, all creatures except its creator and other nasnas within a 10-foot spread must succeed on a DC X Will save or become frightened (panicked?) for 1d4+1 rounds. This is a sonic mind-affecting fear effect. Whether or not the save is successful, an affected creature is immune to the same nasnas's hoot for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.




The original description says its opponents are paralysed, which is even nastier!

Do we want to keep the paralysis or change it to panicked?

The original description says they issue their terrifying cries when in combat. Does that mean they're attacking at the same time? If so, we need to make it a free or swift action.

Or we could make it a two-save deal - first save to prevent panic, and if that fails a save to avoid paralysis.

In any case, this is potentially a rather nasty power for low-level PCs.

Oh, and I don't much care for the name "Frightening Hoot", so can we come up with any alternatives? "Terrifying Screams" has a bit better ring to it, methinks.


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## Number 6 (Mar 17, 2010)

What about the additional feat?

If we consider a chain of feats for the Nasnas with more Hit Dice, it might make the most sense to start with Power Attack... though Toughness or certainly seems reasonable for these guys.


Cleon said:


> It says they mature quickly, but doesn't say _how_ quickly. I'd prefer it to be a matter of months - say another nine months to reach full growth?
> 
> "needing very little food and sleep to survive" suggests a "poor" diet would be enough. The 1sp/day cost for their growth to maturity should be included in their creation cost.



So in addition to creation costs for the potion or elixir for the fruit we're looking at about 27 gp of upkeep to feed a single Nasnas until the time when it becomes a useful guard creature.

I know this isn't necessarily useful information for the monster sheet, but I appreciate hearing back from you guys on this as it is useful for a campaign.


Cleon said:


> I'd think their bizarre physionomy should mean their armour uses the "Armor for Unusual Creature's" nonhuman costs, so twice the normal price.
> 
> That's a good reason for equipping them in something cheap, like leather.



Studded leather or perhaps a chain shirt might be typical... and it will keep Armor Check Penalties to a minimum on Jump checks.


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## Number 6 (Mar 17, 2010)

Cleon said:


> The original description says its opponents are paralysed, which is even nastier!
> 
> Do we want to keep the paralysis or change it to panicked?







Cleon said:


> The original description says they issue their terrifying cries when in combat. Does that mean they're attacking at the same time? If so, we need to make it a free or swift action.
> 
> Or we could make it a two-save deal - first save to prevent panic, and if that fails a save to avoid paralysis.
> 
> In any case, this is potentially a rather nasty power for low-level PCs.



One of the great improvements of 3rd edition... they specifically tell you when they are working with a game term.

It is worth noting that when a Panicked creature becomes cornered it  then Cowers... which sounds like the original intent. 

Alternatively, we could give nasnas the fear ability as Shade wrote up, as many times as they like... but give them Paralyze With Fear (perhaps as a Supernatural ability) once per day and treat it as Hold Person.


Cleon said:


> Oh, and I don't much care for the name "Frightening Hoot", so can we come up with any alternatives? "Terrifying Screams" has a bit better ring to it, methinks.



Although, descriptions of nasnas often use the word "hoot", you're right... it strikes me as less impressive.   Frightening Screams or Terrifying Screams fits.


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## Cleon (Mar 17, 2010)

What armour proficiencies shall we give them.

All types of armour but no shields?

Light armour only to sustain their mobility?

For Environment, Any Land seems suitable as they'll be found wherever an evil wizard creates them, in a similar way to how the SRD golems have Any Land as an Environment. They do seem to like hanging around ruins, so we may want to add that in.

*Environment:* Any land or ruins ?

Treasure-wise, the listed types suggests mostly coins and gemstones than items, so maybe Standard coins, standard goods, 50% items?


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## Number 6 (Mar 17, 2010)

Cleon said:


> What armour proficiencies shall we give them.
> 
> All types of armour but no shields?
> 
> Light armour only to sustain their mobility?



I think they should have Light and Medium Armor proficiencies in case the spellcaster wants to throw down more cash for better protection... but as you say, no shields.

I remember reading one of the Al-Qadim conversions to 3rd edition that opted to remove proficiency with Heavy Armor for folks in Zakhara as it was so rare due to weather and environment.


Cleon said:


> *Environment:* Any land or ruins ?



Very reasonable.


Cleon said:


> Treasure-wise, the listed types suggests mostly coins and gemstones than items, so maybe Standard coins, standard goods, 50% items?



These things would be most useful in a courtyard or passages and not guarding treasure rooms, and consider the treasure value to a nasnas encounter could be all standard and found elsewhere in the adventure... but that's just me.

Then again, the treasure value could easily be used to bump up the nasnas forces... masterwork weapons and armor, magical weapons, or items that improve Armor Class, Dexterity, Constitution, and Strength.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2010)

Updated.

I prefer Power Attack to Toughness, as it is a prereq for many better feats.  

I think paralyzed with fear is just a bit too tough at this level.

Standard action for the hoots, like the shadow mastiff's bay seems reasonable, but I could see switching it to a swift action.


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## Number 6 (Mar 17, 2010)

As we have it, these things essentially have a score on their Jump skill of 17 without putting any ranks in.  That makes a 15' long jump and a 4' high jump fairly certain... a 20' long jump and a 5' high jump relatively easy... and a 25' long jump and a 6' high jump a common success.

I don't necessarily disagree... I'm just thinking aloud with my keyboard.


Shade said:


> http://www.enworld.org/forum/5122777-post879.htmlI prefer Power Attack to Toughness, as it is a prereq for many better feats.



It fits... as they seem like brutes.


Shade said:


> I think paralyzed with fear is just a bit too tough at this level.



If we made Paralyze with Fear an ability, a tough ability at that, it  could be toned down by requiring a Full Round action to activate.


Shade said:


> Standard action for the hoots, like the shadow mastiff's bay seems reasonable, but I could see switching it to a swift action.



Make it a Swift action... it seems like this ability is as natural as breathing to them.


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## Cleon (Mar 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> I prefer Power Attack to Toughness, as it is a prereq for many better feats.




Yes, Power Attack suits these thugs.



Shade said:


> I think paralyzed with fear is just a bit too tough at this level.




With a little regret I'll agree we're better off making it panicked or frightened.



Shade said:


> Standard action for the hoots, like the shadow mastiff's bay seems reasonable, but I could see switching it to a swift action.




I prefer swift.


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## Number 6 (Mar 17, 2010)

Cleon said:


> With a little regret I'll agree we're better off making it panicked or frightened.



Save the idea for the _bigger and badder_ nasnas!  A 6 HD with the ability to paralyze opponents with fear, a higher Damage Reduction, as well as a nice chain of Strength-based feats like Improved Overrun or Improved Sunder ought to add quite a bit to a spellcaster's lair.


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## Number 6 (Mar 18, 2010)

Should nasnas get racial _penalties_ of -2 to Grapple and a -4 to Climb, Escape Artist, and Swim checks because of their single arm and single leg?


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## Cleon (Mar 18, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Save the idea for the _bigger and badder_ nasnas!  A 6 HD with the ability to paralyze opponents with fear, a higher Damage Reduction, as well as a nice chain of Strength-based feats like Improved Overrun or Improved Sunder ought to add quite a bit to a spellcaster's lair.




Great minds think alike, since I was musing along those lines.

Speaking of Advancement, I'm thinking these things stay the same size as they gain HD, getting tougher but no larger - maybe Advancement: 3-6 HD (Medium)?

I feel it fits their nature as pseudo-humanoid pseudo-warrior class creatures.


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## Cleon (Mar 18, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Should nasnas get racial _penalties_ of -2 to Grapple and a -4 to Climb, Escape Artist, and Swim checks because of their single arm and single leg?




I feel that would be overcomplicating things.

Besides, their single arm and leg is abnormally powerful and flexible, so is just as agile as a pair of ordinary humanoid limbs and often stronger.


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## Number 6 (Mar 18, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Speaking of Advancement, I'm thinking these things stay the same size as they gain HD, getting tougher but no larger - maybe Advancement: 3-6 HD (Medium)?



And they might not have any obvious differences from the basic version... which could keep the players on their toes. 



Cleon said:


> I feel that would be overcomplicating things.



A reasonable point... upon reflection, the racial penalties wouldn't simply made the monster sheet longer and not better.


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## Number 6 (Mar 18, 2010)

Regarding Skills:
For skills should we just put four ranks in Balance and a single rank in Jump... or do we want to be a little more focused on Jump?


Regarding Organization:
It's not very important, but should a smaller group of nasnas (perhaps 3-10 of them) be called a Squad?


Regarding CR:
Is it safe to say these things are about a 3?


Regarding the text, specifically on speaking a language:
The original text (with the reference to half of the necessary amount of vocal chords) works fine, but we should add that the nasnas "understands Midani perfectly _(or whatever language its creator typically speaks)_".


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2010)

Perhaps put some ranks in Listen and Spot, since they serve as "vigilant guardians"?


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## Number 6 (Mar 18, 2010)

Shade said:


> Perhaps put some ranks in Listen and Spot, since they serve as "vigilant guardians"?



This is the other reason I'm not entirely in favor of saddling these guys with a negative modifier from Wisdom.  Even a Wisdom of 10 or 11 would make sense for nasnas.

They should have two ranks each in Listen and Spot... possibly three ranks in Listen.

Do we want to consider Alertness as a fear instead of Power Attack?  Or do we grant them an extra feat for Alertness and consider that part of the creation results from the spellcaster?


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2010)

The higher Wisdom appeals, and we can just give them a racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks rather than Alertness.   +4 bonus?


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## Number 6 (Mar 18, 2010)

That's reasonable, Shade... 

With three ranks in Listen and two in Spot nasnas guards would be able to easily hear intruders fighting from about 170 feet away, or about 20 feet away with a stone wall between them.


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## Number 6 (Mar 18, 2010)

Regarding the description:
The original entry says they are gray, but the Homebrews entry says greenish.

Obviously, either one is perfectly fine... but is there are reason for it being green now?

Now that I think of it... a greenish-gray would be cool and eerie.  I've heard that in some Middle Eastern cultures, green is the color of demons or possession or unnatural evil.


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Regarding Organization:
> It's not very important, but should a smaller group of nasnas (perhaps 3-10 of them) be called a Squad?




Sounds good!



Number 6 said:


> Regarding CR:
> Is it safe to say these things are about a 3?




I see them as a mid- to strong- CR 2.



Number 6 said:


> Regarding the text, specifically on speaking a language:
> The original text (with the reference to half of the necessary amount of vocal chords) works fine, but we should add that the nasnas "understands Midani perfectly _(or whatever language its creator typically speaks)_".




We can do the usual Common for the main entry, with an underbar for Midani in Al-Qadim settings.



Number 6 said:


> Regarding the description:
> The original entry says they are gray, but the Homebrews entry says greenish.
> 
> Obviously, either one is perfectly fine... but is there are reason for it being green now?
> ...




Probably user error on my part.  

Although I like your idea for greenish-gray, so let's keep it.  

Updated.


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## Number 6 (Mar 19, 2010)

Looking rather good!



Shade said:


> We can do the usual Common for the main entry, with an underbar for Midani in Al-Qadim settings.



We need to add Martial Training to the stat block... it's in the details, though.

Small change needed in the Al-Qadim underbar:  
"In the Al-Qadim campaign setting, many stone maidens speak Midani rather  than Common."

...most nasnas understand Midani rather than Common.


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## Number 6 (Mar 19, 2010)

I don't want to rush anyone who is still chewing over stuff... but that's about it, isn't it?  Just flavor text left, correct?


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## Cleon (Mar 19, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Regarding Skills:
> For skills should we just put four ranks in Balance and a single rank in Jump... or do we want to be a little more focused on Jump?




If we give them a hefty enough racial bonus in Jump I don't think we need to give them any ranks in Jump - especially considering they add their impressive Strength bonus to the stat.



Number 6 said:


> Regarding Organization:
> It's not very important, but should a smaller group of nasnas (perhaps 3-10 of them) be called a Squad?




If you like.



Number 6 said:


> Regarding CR:
> Is it safe to say these things are about a 3?




It'd likely be safer to wait until we've finished statting them up before assigning them a CR, but their high strength, DR and terrifying scream ability certainly make them effective against low-level foes.



Number 6 said:


> Regarding the text, specifically on speaking a language:
> 
> The original text (with the reference to half of the necessary amount of vocal chords) works fine, but we should add that the nasnas "understands Midani perfectly _(or whatever language its creator typically speaks)_".




I would like to keep that, how about putting "_A nasnas is born with the ability to speak one language known to its creator, typically Common_" in the description.


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## Cleon (Mar 19, 2010)

I'm fine upping the Wisdom to 10 and giving them a +4 racial to Balance, Listen and Spot.

The skill point assignation is OK, or we could stick a point in Balance and give it 2 ranks in both sensory skills if we wanted them to have "evened out" Listen & Spot modifiers. Don't mind either way.


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## Number 6 (Mar 19, 2010)

Cleon said:


> The skill point assignation is OK, or we could stick a point in Balance and give it 2 ranks in both sensory skills if we wanted them to have "evened out" Listen & Spot modifiers. Don't mind either way.



Nothing wrong with pulling back one rank from Listen and moving it to Balance from what I can tell.  Seems reasonable.


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2010)

Well, you guys have this well in hand.  

On CR: this looks like CR 2 to me, and maybe slightly a glass cannon.


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## Cleon (Mar 20, 2010)

Do we want to include details of how to create a Nasnas in the 3E version or just have a "these creatures are created by evil spellcasters, to whom they are slavishly loyal" and leave out the sordid details?

The only numbers we have left are weight and LA.

I'd think they'd be around human weight, maybe on the light end - they are only half the man they could be!

150 pounds?

As for LA, perhaps a "cohort only" LA? Since they have negligible free will they don't seem suitable for PCs, but they could be followers.


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## Cleon (Mar 20, 2010)

The other thing they're missing is a Tactics entry.

Perhaps something like:

Nasnas are aggressive fighters. They rush in close to their foes to use their terrifying scream power, then lay about them with their weapons. Showing no fear of death, they fight with fanatical dedication, only retreating from combat if ordered to by their master.


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## freyar (Mar 22, 2010)

Those suggestions look good to me!


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## Number 6 (Mar 22, 2010)

I hit my players with the nasnas we've got so far... and while my players use 7th/8th level-characters the nasnas worked out fine.  At least they did outside from the fact that I kept forgetting to use their screams as a Free action.  Damn! 


Cleon said:


> Do we want to include details of how to create a Nasnas in the 3E version or just have a "these creatures are created by evil spellcasters, to whom they are slavishly loyal" and leave out the sordid details?



I think it's worth the effort.

The original write-up mentioned that the spellcaster makes a potion... but that was back in the day when "potion" wasn't exclusively used as a game term.  Should we make it a Potion (and therefore require Brew Potion) or make it an Elixir (which would need Craft Wondrous Item)... do we want the prerequisites to be Brew Potion and Craft Wondrous Item?


Moderate conjuration (creation); CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item; _Summon Monster V_; Price 1,125 gp.

Nasnas with higher Hit Dice would simply need a higher level spell and therefore price... of course, based on the CR of such nasnas, the CL might be higher than 11th or 13th.

Moderate conjuration (creation); CL 11th; Craft Wondrous Item; _Summon Monster VI_; Price 1,600 gp.

Moderate conjuration (creation); CL 13th; Craft Wondrous Item; _Summon Monster VII_; Price 2,275 gp.


I had figured that such a potion or elixir would be necromatic, but simply can't think of a spell that might cover the generalities of the nasnas.

I might just go review a few of the spells and things from the Book of Vile Darkness for ideas.


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## Number 6 (Mar 22, 2010)

Cleon said:


> _Nasnas are aggressive fighters. They rush in close to their foes to use their terrifying scream power, then lay about them with their weapons. Showing no fear of death, they fight with fanatical dedication, only retreating from combat if ordered to by their master._



These guys might benefit from a Charge to accomplish a Bull Rush or an Overrun.

Perhaps the first line closes in as normal, but they position themselves to allow for the second or later ranks to Overrun with a Charge, allowing for the nasnas who are already there to get Attacks of Opportunity on those targets getting up from a Prone position.

For large numbers of nasnas, this could be used with three or more charging ranks.


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## Shade (Mar 22, 2010)

Updated.

I kind of like the Brew Potion idea in their creation.  What are good low-level spells that simulate breaking something in two or creating a duplicate?   Maybe shatter?  False life?  Displacement?


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## Number 6 (Mar 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.



I always hate making these corrections... makes me look like a chump-change DM.  It comes from a few years I spent in journalism (for my sins).

Just need to take out the 'p' in emotional.  

"_The nasnas’s current emotipnal state can be discerned from the volume  and tone of the hooting._"

And shift one rank out of Listen and into Balance.


Shade said:


> I kind of like the Brew Potion idea in their creation.  What are good low-level spells that simulate breaking something in two or creating a duplicate?   Maybe shatter?  False life?  Displacement?



Requiring Brew Potion and Craft Wondrous Item should be a good combination... not prohibitive but slightly limiting.

You might have something about the spells... however, I just figure the tainted fruit causes the woman to conceive a child with one-half of a body since she eats one half of the tainted fruit.

We could take one of the Necrotic spells from Libris Mortis.


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## Cleon (Mar 23, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Requiring Brew Potion and Craft Wondrous Item should be a good combination... not prohibitive but slightly limiting.
> 
> You might have something about the spells... however, I just figure the tainted fruit causes the woman to conceive a child with one-half of a body since she eats one half of the tainted fruit.
> 
> We could take one of the Necrotic spells from Libris Mortis.




I think making it an elixer rather than a potion is a better fit to the 3E rules. Not sure I like Brew Potion as an additional prerequisite, since these things are supposedly pretty easy to create if you know the formulae.

How about an easy Craft (alchemy) check - DC10 or DC12?

Regarding the spells, I'd rather stick to SRD sources and not use Libris Mortis, and _summon monster_ just doesn't do it for me - it just feels more "regular wizard" than "evil necromancer".

How about _bestow curse_ and _baleful polymorph_ since its cursing the mother with a mutated offspring?


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2010)

I also think it should be an elixir with the Craft (alchemy ) check, though I could go up to DC 15 or so.  And we should keep to core spells, except possibly in a sidebar.  Bestow curse and baleful polymorph sound about right.


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## Number 6 (Mar 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> I also think it should be an elixir with the Craft (alchemy ) check, though I could go up to DC 15 or so.  And we should keep to core spells, except possibly in a sidebar.  Bestow curse and baleful polymorph sound about right.



Sounds too inexpensive.  I know the original details say the costs are relatively cheap, but I tend to think it will fly in the face of balance.  The ability to create a small but potent army of these things (albeit with a 18 month period and enough kidnapped, enslaved, or misled women) ought to cost something more than the cost of hiring a similar number of 1st-level human Warriors.

Even if the costs for one fruit (and therefore two nasnas) should be less than crafting a Wondrous Item with a 2nd-level spell at caster level 9th, we could up the nasnas yield per use of Craft Wondrous Item... instead of producing one fruit (just spit-balling here) it creates something like half the number of fruits as the spellcaster has levels.

The Baleful Polymorph spell sounds good... although the Summon Monster spells seem just as good of a fit.  The individual spell doesn't _need_ to be evil and twisted, but the way the villainous spellcaster uses it certain can be... and using it to cause the birth of a monstrous half-man fits the bill.


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2010)

Baleful polymorph is also probably a bit too high-level (5th) for creating something this weak.

I'm not terribly invested in the prereqs for their creation, other than to maintain the flavor.  I'll let you guys decide what you'd like best.


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2010)

Hmm, I like Shade's approach: let Number 6 and Cleon decide!   But we do need to keep to core, I think.


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## Number 6 (Mar 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> Hmm, I like Shade's approach: let Number 6 and Cleon decide!   But we do need to keep to core, I think.



Aw sh*t... I don't want _that_ responsibility. 

Here's my simple option:

The creator needs Craft Wondrous Item and the _Summon Monster __II_ as prerequisites.  That should keep the cost down... and if necessary allow the creator to make enough elixir to taint as much fruit as half his spellcasting levels.

That allows a 9th-level cleric or wizard to make four fruits (yielding eight nasnas) at the cost 450 gp.

If we want to write in the possibility for creating nasnas with more Hit Dice, the required spell becomes _Summon Monster __IV_ (for 4 HD) or _Summon Monster __VI_ (for 6 HD) and as such becomes more expensive.

With that said, I think Shade's right... in spite of the fact that I sometimes like to sweat the small stuff.


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2010)

Using this explanation to create the fruit, then requiring a living woman to "bear the fruit", that works for me!

Cleon?


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## Number 6 (Mar 25, 2010)

In addition to ironing out the creation of nasnas, what else do we need to finish?  My spellchecker spotted two more needed edits, but I was thinking stuff other than that. 

Also, when we do lock down the nasnas, should we tackle one of the Tasked Genies since GrayLinnorn wanted to go in that direction?


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2010)

That's probably it for the nasnas, and I'm fine going in whatever direction we want.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2010)

Definitely tasked genies next.  

So...

Creating nasnas is a complicated and vile process.  A spellcaster must first create a magical fruit, called a _nasnas fruit_.  The fruit must then be cut in equal halves.  The spellcaster must then convince a humanoid woman to eat one of the halves (methods range from conventional trickery to magical coercion).  The nasnas will gestate for nine months, acting in all manner like a typical pregnancy.  The woman will conceive and in nine months give birth to an infant nasnas. The nasnas quickly reach maturity six months thereafter.

One nasna can thus be created from each half of a _nasnas fruit_. However, a woman can only bear one nasna at a time.  Greater nasnas can be created using more powerful spells in the creation (and at greater costs).

Nasnas Fruit (2 HD nasnas):  Faint conjuration; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, summon monster II; Price 4,000 gp.

Nasnas Fruit (4 HD nasnas):  Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, summon monster IV; Price 8,000 gp.

Nasnas Fruit (6 HD nasnas):  Strong conjuration; CL 11th; Craft Wondrous Item, summon monster VI; Price 12,000 gp.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2010)

Looks good!


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## Cleon (Mar 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> Using this explanation to create the fruit, then requiring a living woman to "bear the fruit", that works for me!
> 
> Cleon?




I suggested_ baleful polymorph_ as a prereq because its spell level required a caster level of 9th, the same as the original description. There is a problem with it being a powerful spell for "constructing" two creatures with only 2HD, but they are creatures with an at-will Su power that they can use on their master's behalf as often as they like, so that doesn't bother me that much.

Still don't see it being _summon monster_, since the procedure doesn't strike me as a Conjuration. It seems much more like a Necromancy (_bestow curse_) or Transmutation (_baleful polymorph_) effect. Well, unless the "nasnas" are some kind of parasite summoned to grow inside  the unfortunate ladies, but there's no impression of that from the original description.

What examples do we have to base the construction costs on? The closest SRD example I could think of was the _goat of terror_ Figuring of Wondrous Power which has stats as a light warhorse and emanates 30' radius (DC16) when ridden to attack, but that's a "once every two weeks" item that's part of a set.

Maybe we could approach this in a different direction: what CL and cost would you consider a nasnas to be if it were a mgical items with its properties - 10-foot radius effectively continuous fear and the ability to damage your enemies without your direction.


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## Cleon (Mar 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> Nasnas Fruit (2 HD nasnas):  Faint conjuration; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, summon monster II; Price 4,000 gp.
> 
> Nasnas Fruit (4 HD nasnas):  Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, summon monster IV; Price 8,000 gp.
> 
> Nasnas Fruit (6 HD nasnas):  Strong conjuration; CL 11th; Craft Wondrous Item, summon monster VI; Price 12,000 gp.




CL 3 seems way too low. We're still talking about an unlimited 10-foot radius _fear_ effect hopping around on a single leg.

Also, I don't think there should be that much difference in CL, aura strength and prereqs for the three different strengths. A 42HD Greater Stone Golem has three times the HD of a Standard Stone Golem but it has the same CL and prereqs - it just costs more for being tougher.

We could go someway towards justifying it if we gave the higher HD varieties greater powers. We were talking earlier about making a tougher variant that paralyzed its victims like in the original description.

So, I'd rather make the caster levels 7/9/12 (CL 7 seems a good start since _fear_ is a Sor/Wiz4 spell.) and give the 6HD version "paralysing hoots" instead of the regular "terrifying" variety.

The costs look OK to me.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2010)

Cleon said:


> So, I'd rather make the caster levels 7/9/12 (CL 7 seems a good start since _fear_ is a Sor/Wiz4 spell.) and give the 6HD version "paralysing hoots" instead of the regular "terrifying" variety.




That works for me, as long as we add fear to the creation requirements.


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## Number 6 (Mar 27, 2010)

Shouldn't the Caster Level stay at 9th for the basic version of this fruit?


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## Cleon (Mar 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> That works for me, as long as we add fear to the creation requirements.




Say Create Wondrous Item, _fear_ _& bestow curse_ for the prerequisites, then have the nasnas fruit radiate an aura of moderate necromancy?

That'd suit me.



Number 6 said:


> Shouldn't the Caster Level stay at 9th for the  basic version of this fruit?




I think the point was caster level 9th may be too high for a creature with its stats. A Flesh Golem, for example, has CL8 Construction and is far tougher in a fight. The Nasnas may have a supernatural SA, but is that enough to make the difference?


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## freyar (Mar 29, 2010)

Probably not, answering the rhetorical question.


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## Shade (Mar 29, 2010)

Updated.

How's it looking now?


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## Number 6 (Mar 29, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I think the point was caster level 9th may be too high for a creature with its stats. A Flesh Golem, for example, has CL8 Construction and is far tougher in a fight. The Nasnas may have a supernatural SA, but is that enough to make the difference?



As single creatures, flesh golems stack up pretty tough against nasnas... but for one use of Create Wondrous Item would create enough magic juice to taint two, four, or ten fruits.

In fact, these things are made to be used as a gang... those multiple saves for fear checks might be at a low DC, with with ten nasnas a frontline combatant hero will probably need to roll against most of those ten nasnas, and he's probably going to lose at least once.


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## Number 6 (Mar 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> How's it looking now?



Damn fine.
Should we flesh out the paralyzing fear effect for the Greater Nasnas?  Does it make victims become Cowered, or actually Paralyzed, or under the effect of a Hold Person?


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## Shade (Mar 29, 2010)

The phrase "paralyzed with fear" is actually used by some other monsters, implying full paralysis, so we should be good as-is.


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## Number 6 (Mar 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> The phrase "paralyzed with fear" is actually used by some other monsters, implying full paralysis, so we should be good as-is.



Then the most important question is which Tasked Genie are we going to work on?  Perhaps we should only do one or two, jump off to something else, and then back to another couple of Tasked Genies.

Guardian tasked genies might be a logical choice... perhaps Deceiver or Oathbinder tasked genies.


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2010)

I don't know how many tasked genies there are, but it's probably best to do them all in a row to keep common features and abilities in mind.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> I don't know how many tasked genies there are, but it's probably best to do them all in a row to keep common features and abilities in mind.




Indeed.  Plus, this thread is essentially completed, so it's not like there's a long line of conversions being kept at bay.  

I'll get the first one going shortly.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2010)

*Genie, Tasked (General)*
Tasked genies may once have been genies of one of the four elemental realms. However, tasked genies have performed a single type of labor for so long that their forms have been permanently sculpted to suit their work. Their profession defines them and rules them; a tasked genie taken away from its work grows weak and sickly.  Unlike most genies, tasked genies are not always uneasy or hostile in the presence of humans. They are still very proud of their superior skills, but their sense of worth is based on achievements, not birth. As long as they share an interest and aptitude for their craft and a willingness to defer to the genies’ greater knowledge, humans can consort with tasked genies with no ill effect.

Just as faerie creatures are more than mortal but less than divine, so are tasked genies among the most powerful spirits of the Land of Fate. Specifically, genies are elemental spirits which serve the unsympathetic forces of nature. They are free-willed, civilized, and highly intelligent. They eat, drink and reproduce just like humans, and they can die just as humans die. Their powers, however, inspire such fear and awe in the minds of primitive tribesmen that they are still worshipped and offered sacrifices as gods in remote and savage areas of the Burning Land. They can raise buildings overnight, their armies can appear and disappear from the field of battle, and their magic can whisk a person hundreds of miles in moments.

Most genies prefer to dwell apart from humans, but tasked genies are equally at home in the wilderness and in the cities. Genies that live on the elemental planes rarely come to the Land of Fate unless called, but elemental genies and some tasked genies who live in the Burning World prefer uninhabited wildernesses, ruins, deserted houses, cemetaries, rivers, and abandoned wells. Those who trespass on the home of a genie are usually warned off by an attempt to frighten; stones are thrown at the intruders by invisible genies or sudden sandstorms spring up to blind, confuse, and misdirect. If the trespassing continues, the travelers are attacked and shown no mercy.

The genies of Zakhara are nomads of a sort; their camps among the desert and ruins and their lodgings in the cities may disappear in an instant (usually at dawn or dusk), whenever a genie tribe decides to move on. But their camps don.t resemble the camps of nomads. They are often huge mansions or fortresses, yet they may vanish into the sands when discovered, like a dream fading in the morning light. At other times, however, genies in the wilderness take their discovery by others rather badly, and, instead of moving on, they try to force their discoverers away by throwing stones at them or by carrying them on the wind for many miles. For this reason, travelers through the desert often call out to the genies when approaching desolate lands and ask them for permission to pass through.

Unlike the genies of the four elements, tasked genies have very little regard for the castes, classes, and social distinctions of humans, as their lives and their status among their kind are almost entirely dependant on merit. Tasked genies have no nobility, only masters of their craft. They will as soon work for a pauper as for a sultan, as long as there is work to be done.

This lack of elitism does not mean that genies do not understand the nuances of politeness and proper etiquette. They may not think much of their master, but they will be unstintingly polite. Of course, genies can and do turn social conventions “topsy-turvy” when they are free to harass someone who has offended them or even just when the mood strikes them.

Tasked genies fall into two main categories: those bound by their profession to a certain location and those kept inactive in some way for long periods between bouts of servitude. The first group comprises the helpful tasked genies, those who create fantastic foods, art, and monuments. The second group has nothing to do when not called upon by genie nobles or powerful sha’irs. They are slowly driven insane by their magical isolation, and for this reason they delight in shedding blood when released from service. These include the warmonger, slayer, and guardian genies.

Tasked genies must always be either paid or enslaved before they will render service to a nongenie. Architect, artist, guardian, herdsman, and winemaker tasked genies are almost always simply paid for their work, as enslaving them decreases the quality and length of their service. Slayers are almost always enslaved, as they are too dangerous to be allowed to roam free and they cannot be expected to uphold any bargain they make. Warmonger tasked genies may either be paid or enslaved, but in either case their true reward is the sight of victory on the battlefield. The sweeping events they set in motion often continue long after the warmonger genie has been imprisoned or sent away.

Binding a particular tasked genie is a difficult undertaking requiring great wealth, wisdom, and patience. The procedure is equivalent to spell research, with the same costs and chances of success. Only a sha’ir may successfully learn the rituals for binding a tasked genie. The determination of success is made with the level of the spell being researched treated as equal to the tasked genie hit dice divided in half (round up). Thus, learning to bind a herdsman tasked genie requires as much effort as learning a second-level spell, while the ritual for commanding a guardian tasked genie will be discovered as if it were a seventh-level spell. Once the initial research is done, the tasked genie may be bound or commanded as detailed for sha’ir abilities. 

Though only a single genie may be bound by a spell, some tasked genies will request aid from their brethren when commanded to undertake a large, short-term project for their masters such as shearing a huge herd of sheep or building fortifications in time to hold off invaders. Herdsman and builder tasked genies are particularly prone to calling on their kinfolk when presented with a huge task. These genies serve without demanding pay from the sha’ir so as to free their cousin from service more quickly. A sha’ir may bind no more than one tasked genie per year or face the wrath of the genie princes when he asks for an audience.

All tasked genies are extremely long-lived. Guardians are the tasked genies with the greatest longevity; they can serve for 1,001 years, so their age is truly great. Others, such as winemaker and herdsman tasked genies, are more closely tied to the seasonal cycles of the Land of Fate, and this seems to have made them shorter-lived than most genies. Their lifetime is only twice that of a human. The other tasked genies fall somewhere in between, with a great deal of individual variation. Tasked genies kept from their tasks invariably live short lives.

Genies occasionally take human lovers, but the result is almost always tragic. Those who love the genies lose all sense of reason and judgement and are often destroyed by their love for such a powerful spirit. Occasionally, however, the pair makes its peace and lives happily, almost always after a stormy courtship and almost always only after leaving human society. These liasons rarely produce children, but when they do the offspring have the powers, strength, and abilities of markeen, though they do not have a human double.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix (1992).


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2010)

*Genie, Tasked, Architect/Builder*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Genius (17)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 9
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 4-24
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (7’ tall)
MORALE: Average (8-10)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 5,000

The builder genies were once dao, but they have been reshaped by a life of construction and design. They are common in the Great Dismal Delve, but they are also sometimes bound by sha.ir to serve human princes. Some of them have been given to other noble genies as gifts from the noble dao. Their powers are responsible for many of the tales told of cities springing up overnight at the command of the genies.

Builder genies are bald and muscular like the dao, and they share the same taste in clothes and jewelry. They are often branded with a dao symbol denoting ownership, usually on the hand or forehead. They almost always carry drawing compasses and rulers, plumb bobs, chalk, levels, trowels, and builders’ squares.

Combat: A builder genie may use each of the following spelllike abilities three times per day: minor creation, vacancy, and warp wood. They may use each of the following once per day: stone shape, stone tell, and passwall. Once per month they may grant a wish related to buildings or construction. 

Builder genies have a stupendous ability to find and exploit the weak points of any structure. When they direct the fire of siege engines against fortifications, structural damage done by the attackers is increased by 50%. A builder genie can collapse unfortified buildings and underground works in one turn if allowed to study them for an hour.

Unless a builder genie is commanded to defend a building, it will prefer to avoid combat and simply repair minor damage after a battle is resolved by others. If commanded to, a builder genie will defend its worksite, but it cannot be commanded to take part in battles outside buildings or in buildings it has had no part in making. Much like their dao brethren, builder genies prefer to let others do their fighting for them and will balance the odds in their favor as much as possible before a battle. They enjoy using mazes, battlements, and secret passages to lead opponents on chases through entire buildings that they have prepared with traps and ambush sites. In desperation, a builder genie may collapse part of a building it is working on to kill opponents who might otherwise destroy the whole project.

Habitat/Society: Builder genies live for their work; they want to be remembered for what they have done rather than for what pleasant genies they were to work with. This generally means that they are merciless on themselves and others when their work is at stake. The greatest compliment one can pay a builder genie is to admire his work; the greatest insult one can offer is to compliment the builder while criticizing his work. 

Builder genies don’t care what they build; waterwheels or mosques with a dozen minarets receive equal care and planning. In all cases, builder genies will demand the longest-lasting and most expensive materials. Due to these stringent demands, the cost of a building designed or built by a builder genie will be four times the normal cost. It will have twice the strength and twice the useful life of a normal building. 

Builder genies can imitate the style of any building they have seen, though they can only reproduce the structural details of buildings they have been able to examine closely for a day. They prefer to work in a style appropriate to the setting of a building, but they will build an opulent mausoleum in the middle of a poor fishing village if their master so commands. They will not hesitate to tell their master exactly why such a building is inappropriate among the dhows and huts, however. While their master’s project is always completed if at all possible, its final form may not be exactly what the patron had in mind. Builder genies can be notoriously literal in obeying instructions, and they can also bend instructions to suit their personal whims.

Ecology: Builder genies are slaves to the dao, and they resent the dao without being able to overthrow them. They are on excellent terms with the xorn, earth elementals, and pech. They are always willing to destroy existing structures to make way for their new, improved ones, although in the case of a masterwork, the builder genie may tear down the old and then rebuild it with improvements that only a master architect or stonemason might recognize.

Builder genies judge others on their building achievements. Races that have not built mansions, bridges, and graceful gates do not rate as civilized. Builder genies have great respect for the disciplined and exact hives and warrens of giant insects.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix (1992).


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 30, 2010)

Perhaps they can make Know (architecture and engineering) checks to ignore x points of hardness, and convey that information to allies?


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2010)

Oooh, nice idea.  Would major creation or fabricate be out of line to add to the SLAs, or should we stick to the list as given?  And does anyone know what vacancy does?


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## Number 6 (Mar 30, 2010)

One method I thought of using with Tasked Genies is to simply start them off with a couple of character levels... an Architect/Builder would probably have two or three Expert class levels.  Since Tasked Genies don't quite seem to be born as developed over many years/decades of service.

That's probably not going to help all types, but it might provide some ideas.


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## Number 6 (Mar 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> Oooh, nice idea.  Would _major creation_ or _fabricate_ be out of line to add to the SLAs, or should we stick to the list as given?



I'm of the opinion that we stick to the list, but as Cleon can attest, adding suggestions for Greater versions don't hurt.


freyar said:


> And does anyone know what vacancy does?



For your convenience, the 2nd edition source:



> *Vacancy*
> *(Alteration, Illusion/Phantasm)*
> 
> Range: 10 yds./level
> ...



The fifth-level Sorcerer/Wizard spell Mirage Arcana seems to fit the bill... at least on first glance.


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## Number 6 (Mar 30, 2010)

Tasked Architect/Builder genies... based on the Dao, at least generally.

Spell-like abilities
3/day - minor creation, mirage arcana, and warp wood.
1/day - stone shape, stone tell, and passwall.
1/month - wish (granted in relation to buildings or  construction).

Find & Exploit Structural Weakness, Direct Siege Engines, Collapse Structure... Extraordinary abilities perhaps?


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2010)

That seems pretty good (except you mean mirage arcana in 3/day maybe?).  Agreed to those Ex abilities along the lines demiurge suggested.  

I don't think I want to add actual Expert levels, but lots of skills/bonuses would be good.


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## Number 6 (Mar 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> I don't think I want to add actual Expert levels, but lots of skills/bonuses would be good.



It might work for the Artist, Slayer, or the Warmonger using Bard, Barbarian, and Fighter levels respectively.  But as you say, skill ranks and racial bonuses and certainly feats might really be the way to go.


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## Number 6 (Mar 30, 2010)

How much do we want to borrow from the Dao?


> *GENIE, Dao*
> Large Outsider (Earth, Evil, Genie)
> * Hit Dice:* 8d8+24 (60 hp)
> * Initiative:* +6 (+2 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
> ...


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2010)

Yeah, let's not give them actual class levels, but we can definitely allow for advancement by character class.

Here's the 2e Dao for comparison...

*Dao *
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Earth 
FREQUENCY: Rare 
ORGANIZATION: Khanate 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day  
DIET: Omnivore 
INTELLIGENCE: Low to very (11-12) 
TREASURE: Nil 
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil 
NO. APPEARING: 1 
ARMOR CLASS: 3 
MOVEMENT: 9, Fl 15 (B), Br 6 
HIT DICE: 8+3 
THAC0: 11 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-18 (3d6)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below 
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil 
SIZE: L (8'-11' tall) 
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
XP VALUE: 5,000


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## Cleon (Mar 30, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> One method I thought of using with Tasked Genies is to simply start them off with a couple of character levels... an Architect/Builder would probably have two or three Expert class levels.  Since Tasked Genies don't quite seem to be born as developed over many years/decades of service.
> 
> That's probably not going to help all types, but it might provide some ideas.




I don't much care for that approach, I'd rather make them straight monsters. I see tasked genies as creatures that have been literally reshaped to perform a particular task, not ones that just developed a particularly high skill in it.

Since they were originally Dao it would seem to make sense to use a Dao's stats as a baseline, but there are a lot of differences so it may be easier to work them up from scratch.

How about this for a start:

*Size/Type:* Large Outsider (Earth, Genie)
[_As a Dao less the Evil_]

*Hit Dice:* 9d8 [*9d8+36 (76 hp) if we use the proposed Con 18*]
[_since they've got one more HD than a basic Dao_]

*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares), burrow 20 ft. [*or higher?*]
[_They've got a 15" speed. They can't fly like a Dao. I think they should have a Burrow speed though, as they're native to the Great Dismal Delves, even if they're not listed as having such in the original._]

*Abilities:* Str 24, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 15
[_The original does 4-24 damage versus the Dao's 3-18 but is more or less the same size, so I reckon they should be stronger - seems suitable for a burly builder type. Thus, I applied +4 Str, -2 Dex and +2 Con to a Dao's physical stats. They're also a lot smarter than a regular Dao, being genius's, so I just upped the Int to 17._]

*Special Attacks:* Spell-like abilities, demolition, earth mastery
[_I like #6's proposals for the SLAs. I am tempted to add a Dao's _transmute rock to mud_ (and the reverse _mud to rock_) __and _wall of stone _abilities, which are really useful for creating buildings, but that would give them far better SLAs than the original. I suppose they can easily be emulated with wish-granting._]

3/day - _minor creation, mirage arcana, warp wood_.
1/day - _stone shape, stone tell, passwall_.
1/month - _wish _(granted in relation to buildings or  construction).

*Special Qualities:* Telepathy 100 ft, darkvision 60 ft
[_ I don't think most tasked genies would have _plane shift_, since they're "fixed in plane" to perform their tasked duties. Telepathy makes sense though, so they can be instructed by their masters and order their workers._]


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## Number 6 (Mar 31, 2010)

Cleon said:


> _...__I am tempted to add a Dao's _transmute rock to mud_ (and the reverse _mud to rock_) __and _wall of stone _abilities, which are really useful for creating buildings, but that would give them far better SLAs than the original. I suppose they can easily be emulated with wish-granting._]



I think you're right... upon further thought, add them.  If there's any concern that better SLAs will change Tasked Builders maybe add _rock to mud, mud to rock_, and _wall of stone_ at only 1/day each instead of the Dao standard of 3/day.

With those in mind, is _wish_ (granted only for constructions) even useful at 1/month?  I suppose it makes sense for instant construction.


Cleon said:


> [_ I don't think most tasked genies would have _plane shift_, since they're "fixed in plane" to perform their tasked duties. Telepathy makes sense though, so they can be instructed by their masters and order their workers._]



I don't remember tasked genies being fixed in plane at all... but I'm getting old.  I see genies having the _plane shift_ ability as a matter of being genies... the genie-doubles being the exception since they were cursed (or something like that).

They get summoned or called, they are bound magically or by reasonable bargain, and then they leave possibly returning to their plane of origin (or simply by mundane means off to the wilderness).

I might need to grab my old Complete Sha'ir's Handbook to refresh my memory... and see if we have anything else that should get thrown into the mix.  I don't think the CSH added anything, but it could be useful.

We might consider fleshing out the details for summoning/calling tasked genies... or if you just summon/call them like regular genies, but the main difference is in the bargaining.  I never used to worry about it, but it seems worth looking at now.


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## Number 6 (Mar 31, 2010)

Cleon said:


> [_I like #6's proposals for the SLAs._



That's because we're both smart. 


> *Demolition ** (Ex)*
> 
> Collapse  Structure





Maybe they get a +4 bonus on checks to Break construction.  Is that even enough?  Should this be similar to a _disintegrate_ spell but only effecting structures (and more than merely a 10-foot cube)?



> *Demolition ** (Ex)*
> 
> Find & Exploit Structural Weakness





 Demiurge suggested that Builder tasked genies can, "make Know (architecture and engineering) checks to  ignore x points of hardness".  Sounds good... and their telepathy is the perfect method for passing on those details to allies or at least the summoner/binder.

How we set the DC for the structure might be as easy as using the Craft skill's DCs for various types of items... accept these items are quite a bit bigger.  

Very simple construction: DC 5
Typical construction: DC 10
High-quality construction: DC 15
Complex or superior construction: DC 20
Magical or geniecraft construction: DC 25 or higher

The number of points of Hardness to ignore?  Perhaps every five points the genie's check succeeds equals a Hardness point.  Is that enough or too much?  Does it effect the whole construction, or just one part of it?  A wall or a tower versus the whole fortress.



> *Direct Siege Engines (Ex)*



Is there something in the Hirelings section of the DMG that might apply here?  Or do we simply allow the Builder tasked genie to add a +2 circumstance bonus to siege engines used under his direction?


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## Number 6 (Apr 1, 2010)

I presume that most tasked genies (mainly those other than the Guardians, Oathbinders, Slayers, Warmongers, and similar types) might swap out the combat related feats with feats more practical to their task.

If this is something we run with, we might give the Builder/Architect a pass and allow both Power Attack and Improved Sunder for obvious reasons.


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2010)

I'm getting a little overwhelmed with all the text , but I think this is going in the right direction.


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## Number 6 (Apr 1, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'm getting a little overwhelmed with all the text , but I think this is going in the right direction.



It's been slow at work.


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## Cleon (Apr 4, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> I don't remember tasked genies being fixed in plane at all... but I'm getting old.  I see genies having the _plane shift_ ability as a matter of being genies... the genie-doubles being the exception since they were cursed (or something like that).




From what I remember, most tasked genies don't have _plane shift_ so are stuck in whatever plane they're called/sent to perform their tasks in. Of course, I may me misremembering.


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## Cleon (Apr 4, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Demiurge suggested that Builder tasked genies can, "make Know (architecture and engineering) checks to  ignore x points of hardness".  Sounds good... and their telepathy is the perfect method for passing on those details to allies or at least the summoner/binder.
> 
> How we set the DC for the structure might be as easy as using the Craft skill's DCs for various types of items... accept these items are quite a bit bigger.
> 
> ...




The basic idea is sound but I think we can make it a good deal simpler. For a start, it'd easier to have an all-or-nothing effect. Something like:
*
Demolition (Ex):* A builder genie can study a construction to find its weak spots. This requires a full-round action and a Knowledge (Architecture) check against a DC equal to the construction's Break DC. If successful, the genie's attacks on the construction do full damage and ignore its hardness (and do an additional X damage per attack?).



Number 6 said:


> Is there something in the Hirelings section of the DMG that might apply here?  Or do we simply allow the Builder tasked genie to add a +2 circumstance bonus to siege engines used under his direction?




We could use some variation of the Aid Another action for the Direct Siege Engine. Something like "A genie can use the Aid Another action to give another creature the benefit of its Demolition ability when using a siege engine to attack a construction it has studied."


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## Number 6 (Apr 5, 2010)

Simplified is better!  


Cleon said:


> *Demolition (Ex):* A builder genie can study a construction to find its weak spots. This requires a full-round action and a Knowledge (Architecture) check against a DC equal to the construction's Break DC. If successful, the genie's attacks on the construction do full damage and ignore its hardness (and do an additional X damage per attack?).



Ignoring a structure's Hardness all together might be too potent... perhaps the Builder genie can treat the structure's Hardness as half of the original.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I think we should keep plane shift, as that is a function of all genies.  It seems to me that most tasked genies will be assigned their tasks via planar ally/planar binding effects, so it won't matter if they plane hop.

I think Cleon's proposed Demolition ability works well as written, without the red text (additional damage).


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## Number 6 (Apr 5, 2010)

We might want to add to the Earth Mastery ability: that it affects foes and structures.  It might seem silly to add it, but there are cloud castles for giants and elementals in the air and floating structures on water.


Possible feats?
Great Fortitude, Skill Focus (Knowledge: architect & engineering), Power Attack, Improved Sunder?

Skills?
Climb, Concentration, Craft, Jump, Knowledge (architecture & engineering), Listen, Spot, Search... maybe focusing on Craft, Knowledge, and Search?



With the addition of a few SLAs, should the CR go from 7 to 8?


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## freyar (Apr 6, 2010)

We could add to Earth Mastery, but Demolition might be enough against structures! Besides, most buildings are easy enough to hit. 

Well, you've got 8 skills listed and we need 11.  Maybe go with 3 different Crafts and one additional Knowledge?


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## Number 6 (Apr 6, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, you've got 8 skills listed and we need 11.  Maybe go with 3 different Crafts and one additional Knowledge?



They should certainly have Craft: carpentry and Craft: stonemasonry... possibly Craft: blacksmith and Knowledge: dungeoneering.  As genies they might have Knowledge: planes.  Perhaps Profession: builder.


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## Cleon (Apr 6, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Simplified is better!
> 
> Ignoring a structure's Hardness all together might be too potent... perhaps the Builder genie can treat the structure's Hardness as half of the original.




That's a good point. We could reduce the hardness by a set amount instead of halving it. That would make it proportionally less potent against high hardness objects. If it ignores, say, 6 points of hardness that would allow the genie to  smash through stone like it was soft wood or leather.

*Demolition (Ex):* A builder genie can study a construction to find  its weak spots. This requires a full-round action and a Knowledge  (Architecture) check against a DC equal to the construction's Break DC.  If successful, the genie's attacks ignore the first *X* points of the construction's hardness and do full damage.


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2010)

Cleon said:


> That's a good point. We could reduce the hardness by a set amount instead of halving it. That would make it proportionally less potent against high hardness objects. If it ignores, say, 6 points of hardness that would allow the genie to  smash through stone like it was soft wood or leather.
> 
> *Demolition (Ex):* A builder genie can study a construction to find  its weak spots. This requires a full-round action and a Knowledge  (Architecture) check against a DC equal to the construction's Break DC.  If successful, the genie's attacks ignore the first *X* points of the construction's hardness and do full damage.




Good idea!   6 points works for me.


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## Number 6 (Apr 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> Good idea!   6 points works for me.



Good?  It's great! 

As for Direct Siege Engines... if we allow other creatures to use the builder genie's Demolition ability through Aid Another should we simply just add that to the Demolition ability details?


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> As for Direct Siege Engines... if we allow other creatures to use the builder genie's Demolition ability through Aid Another should we simply just add that to the Demolition ability details?




That's an interesting idea, although I don't think we should confuse it with the Aid Another action, which has clear benefits.

Perhaps something like this?

Demolition (Ex): A builder genie can study a construction to find its weak spots. This requires a full-round action and a Knowledge (Architecture) check against a DC equal to the construction's break DC. If successful, the genie's attacks ignore the first 6 points of the construction's hardness and do full damage.

Instead of making its own attacks, the builder genie may instead use its demolition ability to aid the operator(s) of a siege engine.  In this case, the DC increases by 5.  If the genie succeeds on its check, the siege engine ingnores the first 6 points of the construction's hardness and deals full damage.


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## Cleon (Apr 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> That's an interesting idea, although I don't think we should confuse it with the Aid Another action, which has clear benefits.
> 
> Perhaps something like this?
> 
> ...




That looks good to me (well, except for the surplus "n" in "ingnores").

I can't think of anything else it needs.


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## Number 6 (Apr 7, 2010)

Somewhat unrelated... should we tackle the standard Tasked Genies first (from MC13) and then go through those from the adventure sourceboxes, or should we just go alphabetical?


Shade said:


> That's an interesting idea, although I don't think we should confuse it with the Aid Another action, which has clear benefits.



I can't take credit for it... that was Cleon.  What's more Cleon was much more clear than I was about doing something in the style of Aid Another.


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## freyar (Apr 8, 2010)

Revisions to Demolition, etc, look good.

Good call on Profession.  I think I'd prefer that to Know (dungeoneering).  The Craft skills selected are good, too.


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## Number 6 (Apr 8, 2010)

Regarding Skills:


freyar said:


> Good call on Profession.  I think I'd prefer that to Know (dungeoneering).  The Craft skills selected are good, too.



How about this...

Climb 11, Concentration 11, Craft (blacksmith) 11, Craft (carpentry) 11, Craft (stonemasonry) 11, Jump 11, Knowledge (architecture & engineering) 11, Knowledge (planes) 11, Listen 11, Profession (builder) 11, Spot 11, Search 11.

Maybe add Profession (architect) and give both Profession skills 5 ranks, then shift the stray skill point to Knowledge (architecture & engineering) or Search.


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## Shade (Apr 8, 2010)

Lookin' good, but I think I'd rather see greater ranks in the Profession skills and reduce some of the more generalized skills.   Like so?

Climb 5, Concentration 11, Craft (blacksmith) 11, Craft (carpentry) 11, Craft (stonemasonry) 11, Jump 5, Knowledge (architecture & engineering) 12, Knowledge (planes) 11, Listen 11, Profession (architect) 11, Profession (builder) 11, Spot 11, Search 11.

I'd propose dropping Jump altogether (it doesn't really fit their theme), and putting 1 more point each in the Craft skills and Profession skills.


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## Number 6 (Apr 8, 2010)

Shade said:


> Climb 5, Concentration 11, Craft (blacksmith) 11, Craft (carpentry) 11, Craft (stonemasonry) 11, Jump 5, Knowledge (architecture & engineering) 12, Knowledge (planes) 11, Listen 11, Profession (architect) 11, Profession (builder) 11, Spot 11, Search 11.
> 
> I'd propose dropping Jump altogether (it doesn't really fit their theme), and putting 1 more point each in the Craft skills and Profession skills.



Yes, that's very reasonable. Or maybe add Profession (engineer) and take the five ranks from Jump.


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## Shade (Apr 9, 2010)

Updated.

Do we need any racial skill bonuses for the Craft/Knowledge/Professions, or do the modifiers look sufficient?

Caster level for SLAs?   The other genies don't seem to follow any particular pattern.


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## Number 6 (Apr 9, 2010)

Shade said:


> Caster level for SLAs?   The other genies don't seem to follow any particular pattern.



I seem to recall that, for whatever reason, Dao were the least powerful in terms of Hit Dice and Caster Level for SLA and Marids were most powerful.  Djinn have caster level 20 and Efreet have caster level 12.

If we want to tie Builder Genies to Dao for purposes of Caster Level (or Caster Level in relation to Hit Dice) let's bump the Builder Genie Caster Level one higher than Dao.

I can't find the Dao caster level right now... it wasn't included on the version I grabbed from here.

Anyone have the _Manual of the Planes_ (and 3.5 errata) available?


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## Number 6 (Apr 10, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> I can't find the Dao caster level right now... it wasn't included on the version I grabbed from here.
> 
> Anyone have the _Manual of the Planes_ (and 3.5 errata) available?



Based on the MotP, Dao have a Caster Level of 19th.


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## Cleon (Apr 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Do we need any racial skill bonuses for the Craft/Knowledge/Professions, or do the modifiers look sufficient?




I would give them racial bonuses in Knowledge (architecture & engineering), Profession (architect) and Profession (builder). Probably +4 or so.



Shade said:


> Caster level for SLAs?   The other genies don't seem to follow any particular pattern.




AD&D Dao are 18th level casters and Djinni 20th level.

Since 3E Djinni have the same CL as the 2E version, I'd give Architect/Builders CL 18 like Dao.


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## freyar (Apr 11, 2010)

Whew, I'm behind on these.  All this sounds good, though!


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## Number 6 (Apr 11, 2010)

Cleon said:


> AD&D Dao are 18th level casters and Djinni 20th level.
> 
> Since 3E Djinni have the same CL as the 2E version, I'd give Architect/Builders CL 18 like Dao.



Actually, v3.5 Dao have a Caster Level of 19th.


Efreet are Caster Level 12th (Monster Manual)
Djinn are Caster Level 20th (Monster Manual)
Dao are Caster Level 19th (Manual of the Planes)
The Caster Level for Marid is unlisted (Manual of the Planes)... but must be available in the errata.


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2010)

Marid is 19th as well.

So, 19th for the builders?


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## Number 6 (Apr 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> So, 19th for the builders?



The Builder Genie has one more Hit Die than the Dao, but I'm not sure that's a strong enough reason to bump up the Caster Level.


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## Cleon (Apr 12, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Actually, v3.5 Dao have a Caster Level of 19th.
> 
> 
> Efreet are Caster Level 12th (Monster Manual)
> ...




Number 6's post hop-scotched mine while I was drafting it.

Either 18th or 19th CL would suit me fine, it makes little difference to me.


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## freyar (Apr 12, 2010)

No biggie on the CL, I agree.


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## Number 6 (Apr 14, 2010)

I think we're getting this nailed down.   When we're done should we move on to the next Tasked Genie in MC13 or go back up to the 'A's and get the Tasked Administrator genie?


*Environment:* Elemental Plane of Earth  *[or any land or underground]*
*Organization:* Solitary, company (2–4), or band (6–15)  *[just Solitary]*
* Challenge Rating:* *[7 or 8?]
Treasure:* Standard coins; double goods; standard items *[perhaps change coins to half?]*


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2010)

Let's make sure we have these finished and Shade has all the pieces added to homebrews first, I think.


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2010)

Let's go with CL 19th, stick with the dao's environment, org, and treasure, and probably stick with CR 7, as they aren't quite as tough as the CR 8 efreet.

Updated.  The flavor text needs to be paraphrased quite a bit more.



> Builder genies don’t care what they build; waterwheels or mosques with a dozen minarets receive equal care and planning. In all cases, builder genies will demand the longest-lasting and most expensive materials. Due to these stringent demands, the cost of a building designed or built by a builder genie will be four times the normal cost. It will have twice the strength and twice the useful life of a normal building.




Do we want to do anything with this?  Perhaps the hardness and/or hit points of buildings they create are doubled?


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## Cleon (Apr 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's go with CL 19th, stick with the dao's environment, org, and treasure, and probably stick with CR 7, as they aren't quite as tough as the CR 8 efreet.
> 
> Updated.  The flavor text needs to be paraphrased quite a bit more.




Definitely! The current version's far too long. I think we can safely cut out all the generic Tasked Genie info at the start and trim down the rest, how about the following:Builder genies, also called architect genies, were once dao, but they  have been reshaped by a life of construction and design. Their powers  are responsible for many of the tales told of cities springing up  overnight at the command of the genies. Builder genies are slaves to the dao, and they resent the dao without  being able to overthrow them.  Many bear brands of their dao masters  upon their skin.

Builder genies live for their work; the greatest compliment one can pay a  builder genie is to admire his work, the greatest insult one can offer  is to compliment the builder while criticizing his work. They don’t care what they build, lavishing equal care and planning whether their constructing a barracks or a palace. In all cases, builder  genies will demand the longest-lasting and most expensive materials, costing four times the normal cost. 

Builder genies can imitate any architectural style they have examined. They prefer to work in a  style appropriate to a building's surroundings, but will build an  opulent mausoleum in the middle of a poor fishing village if so commanded. Builder  genies can be notoriously literal in obeying instructions, and they can  also bend instructions to suit their personal whims. They are  always willing to destroy existing structures to make way for new,  improved ones, although in the case of a masterwork, the builder genie rebuild it with improvements only a  master architect might recognize.

Builder genies judge other creatures on their building achievements; they do not rate races that  do not erect structures as  civilized, but have great respect for the disciplined and  exact hives and warrens of giant insects.​


Shade said:


> Do we want to do anything with this?  Perhaps the hardness and/or hit points of buildings they create are doubled?




How about an extra 2 hardness and 50% more hit points?


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## Number 6 (Apr 14, 2010)

> _Builder genies don’t care what they build; waterwheels or mosques  with a  dozen minarets receive equal care and planning. In all cases, builder  genies will demand the longest-lasting and most expensive materials. Due  to these stringent demands, the cost of a building designed or built by  a builder genie will be four times the normal cost. It will have twice  the strength and twice the useful life of a normal building._






Shade said:


> Do we want to do anything with this?  Perhaps the hardness and/or hit points of buildings they create are doubled?



Yeah, but for simplicity we could just refer to the Magically Treated listing on the substance/structure chart...

Magically Treated:
The Break DC gets +20, the Hardness is doubled, and Hit Points doubled or an additional 50 Hit Points (whichever is greater).


True, we might not see Builder Genies making many constructions with substances less than a foot thick, but it is certainly possible someone's going to charge one to build something less defensible than a fortress... might just want a nice home.


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## Number 6 (Apr 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> http://www.enworld.org/forum/5142519-post891.htmlThe flavor text needs to be paraphrased quite a bit more.



We ought to have a separate listing for Tasked Genies in general... that way the individual Tasked Genie listings have only the critical details.


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> We ought to have a separate listing for Tasked Genies in general... that way the individual Tasked Genie listings have only the critical details.




Unfortunately, the entry system for the Creature Catalogue isn't set up for such a thing.  

As a result, we generally just open the entries with the common details.


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## Number 6 (Apr 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> Unfortunately, the entry system for the Creature Catalogue isn't set up for such a thing.
> 
> As a result, we generally just open the entries with the common details.



Well, I suspect the information is readily available to anyone who is interested... let's face it, Al-Qadim fans already have the source material on paper and electronically.  We're not really losing much by cutting it.


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2010)

I'm comfortable with cutting it, as I think Cleon's shortened version is plenty adequate.

Updated.

A builder genie is 7 feet tall and weighs x pounds.


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## Number 6 (Apr 14, 2010)

> _Builder genies don’t care what they build; waterwheels or  mosques  with a  dozen minarets receive equal care and planning. In all  cases, builder  genies will demand the longest-lasting and most  expensive materials. Due  to these stringent demands, the cost of a  building designed or built by  a builder genie will be four times the  normal cost. It will have twice  the strength and twice the useful life  of a normal building._





Shade said:


> Do we want to do  anything with this?  Perhaps the hardness and/or hit points of buildings  they create are doubled?



Should we list this as a special ability... perhaps *Genie Crafted Structures (Su)*.  This could be the case with any construction a Builder Genie works on providing it costs four times the normal amount.

Maybe it also requires something else.  Regardless, it is then considered to be Magically Treated


> Magically Treated:
> The Break DC gets +20, the Hardness is doubled, and Hit Points doubled or an additional 50 Hit Points (whichever is greater).



...and Magically Delicious.


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## Cleon (Apr 14, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Magically Treated:
> The Break DC gets +20, the Hardness is doubled, and Hit Points doubled or an additional 50 Hit Points (whichever is greater).




That seems an awful lot. Looking at the SRD stats for *obstacles*, if you apply those figures to a stone wall (hardness 8, 90 hp, Break 35) you get (hardness 16, 180 hp, Break 55) - that's tougher than a mithral wall (hardness 15, 90 hp, Break 46)! That seems way too much.

I was thinking more the difference between "standard masonry" and "masonry, reinforced", which has the same hardness but double hit points and +10 Break DC, combined with the difference between masonry and "masonry, superior", which has a +5 Climb DC.

So how about something like:

*Genie-Built (Ex):* Any edifice constructed by a builder genie costs four times the standard price, but has double hit points and its Break and Climb DCs are 10 points higher than normal. (e.g. a genie-built 1 foot thick masonry wall has 180 hp, Break DC 45 and Climb DC 25 instead of the 90 hp, Break DC 35 and Climb DC 15 of normal masonry)


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## Cleon (Apr 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm comfortable with cutting it, as I think Cleon's shortened version is plenty adequate.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> A builder genie is 7 feet tall and weighs x pounds.




I'd think it'd weigh as much as a dao, however much that is.


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## Number 6 (Apr 15, 2010)

Cleon said:


> That seems an awful lot. Looking at the SRD stats for *obstacles*, if you apply those figures to a stone wall (hardness 8, 90 hp, Break 35) you get (hardness 16, 180 hp, Break 55) - that's tougher than a mithral wall (hardness 15, 90 hp, Break 46)! That seems way too much.



Perhaps, but certainly Builder Genies ought to be able to make Magically Treated walls and structures... there's a specific cost for it (which is actually 1500 gp per 10'x10' section of wall).  It's reasonable to allow them to make magically treated walls considering their specialty.


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2010)

Cleon said:


> So how about something like:
> 
> *Genie-Built (Ex):* Any edifice constructed by a builder genie costs four times the standard price, but has double hit points and its Break and Climb DCs are 10 points higher than normal. (e.g. a genie-built 1 foot thick masonry wall has 180 hp, Break DC 45 and Climb DC 25 instead of the 90 hp, Break DC 35 and Climb DC 15 of normal masonry)




Yeah, that seems more believable.



Number 6 said:


> ...and Magically Delicious.




But that has merit!  



Cleon said:


> I'd think it'd weigh as much as a dao, however much that is.




Your guess is as good as mine.  (No weight is given).

Here are the only genies with weights given:
A djinni is about 10-1/2 feet tall and weighs about 1,000 pounds.
An efreeti stands about 12 feet tall and weighs about 2,000 pounds.
A qorrashi is about 10-1/2 feet tall and weighs about 1,000 pounds.


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## Number 6 (Apr 15, 2010)

Shade said:


> Here are the only genies with weights given:
> A djinni is about 10-1/2 feet tall and weighs about 1,000 pounds.
> An efreeti stands about 12 feet tall and weighs about 2,000 pounds.
> A qorrashi is about 10-1/2 feet tall and weighs about 1,000 pounds.



I have a listing for Dao that says they range from 8 to 11 feet tall and 500 to 1500 pounds.

Unfortunately, I don't know if that's from the MC13 entry, another source, or speculation.

We could estimate the weight of Builder Genies by using the size adjustments from the 3rd edition versions of the Enlarge/Reduce spells. I believe the multiplier for weight was simply the multiplier for height squared.

If we used Djinni proportions, the Builder Genie might weigh about 450 pounds.  Efreeti proportions would make it about 650 to 700 pounds.

Unless my math is effed up... which _is_ certainly possible.


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2010)

On the whole construction thing, couldn't builder genies make magical construction the same way any other builder can?

Let's go with 500-800 lb.


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## Number 6 (Apr 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> On the whole construction thing, couldn't builder genies make magical construction the same way any other builder can?



It seems reasonable... we might want to consider an extra Feat for Craft Wondrous Item (as required for Magically Treated structures) or swap out the Skill Focus with Craft Wondrous Item.


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## Shade (Apr 16, 2010)

OK, you guys have lost me.  

Are we sticking with Genie-built, and also giving it Craft Wondrous Item?  Or are is the feat intended to replace the ability?


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## Number 6 (Apr 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> OK, you guys have lost me.
> 
> Are we sticking with Genie-built, and also giving it Craft Wondrous Item?  Or are is the feat intended to replace the ability?



They would be independent of each other, Shade.

The genie-building would be as described by you and Cleon.  In addition, builder genies ought to be able to build magical walls and structures as listed in the SRD.


> *Magically Treated Walls:* These  walls are stronger than average, with a greater hardness, more hit  points, and a higher break DC. Magic can usually double the hardness and  hit points and can add up to 20 to the break DC. A magically treated  wall also gains a saving throw against spells that could affect it, with  the save bonus equaling 2 + one-half the caster level of the magic  reinforcing the wall. Creating a magic wall requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat and the  expenditure of 1,500 gp for each 10 foot-by-10-foot wall section.



There might be a reason for not letting a builder genie have this option... but if any spellcaster with Craft Wondrous Items can do it, surely a Tasked Genie well-suited to building and architecture should.


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## Cleon (Apr 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> Here are the only genies with weights given:
> A djinni is about 10-1/2 feet tall and weighs about 1,000 pounds.
> An efreeti stands about 12 feet tall and weighs about 2,000 pounds.
> A qorrashi is about 10-1/2 feet tall and weighs about 1,000 pounds.






Number 6 said:


> I have a listing for Dao that says they range  from 8 to 11 feet tall and 500 to 1500 pounds.
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't know if that's from the MC13 entry, another  source, or speculation.
> 
> ...




Hmm, if you keep the proportions the same in all directions you need to use height squared not cubed, which would make a 7' genie about 300-400 pounds (Djinn-Efreet).

The Dao height and weight range you give suggests they average somewhere about 9'6" and 850 pounds. I'd use somewhere around that weight but make the builder genie 7 feet tall - I imagine that they're squat and powerfully built, a genie equivalent of a dwarf. An average SRD dwarf scaled up to 7 feet tall would weigh ~737 pounds.

7 feet and 600-800 pounds?


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## Cleon (Apr 16, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> They would be independent of each other, Shade.
> 
> The genie-building would be as described by you and Cleon.  In addition, builder genies ought to be able to build magical walls and structures as listed in the SRD.
> 
> There might be a reason for not letting a builder genie have this option... but if any spellcaster with Craft Wondrous Items can do it, surely a Tasked Genie well-suited to building and architecture should.




I agree they should be able to build enchanted constructions. I'd prefer to do it by tinkering with their genie-built SQ so they can construct magical buildings as if they had and any necessary spell or feat prereqs. If we give them Craft Wondrous Item they'd be able to whip up all kinds off other geegaws, and I would rather they specialize in buildings.

Modifying Genie-Built...

*Genie-Built (Ex):* Any edifice constructed by a builder genie  costs four times the standard price, but has double hit points and its  Break and Climb DCs are 10 points higher than normal. (e.g. a  genie-built 1 foot thick masonry wall has 180 hp, Break DC 45 and Climb  DC 25 instead of the 90 hp, Break DC 35 and Climb DC 15 of normal  masonry) 	.

A builder genie can also erect magical treated walls (see DMG) and other enchanted edifices without needing to meet their feat and spell prerequisites.


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## Shade (Apr 16, 2010)

I think I prefer Cleon's approach.  Any objections?


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## Number 6 (Apr 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> I think I prefer Cleon's approach.  Any objections?



Again, he phrases it perfectly, although there are no spell requirements for magical treatment.

Is there anything else we need to deal with on the Builder Genies?


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## Shade (Apr 16, 2010)

Updated, and I believe we are now finished.

Next!

*Genie, Tasked, Artist*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Cities
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Genius (17)
TREASURE: R(x3)
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 7
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (7’ tall)
MORALE: Unsteady (5-7)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 975

Tasked artist genies include both incredibly skilled craftsmen and aesthetically brilliant artists in fields widely accepted as high art. Both groups are capable of producing masterworks in their chosen speciality in a very short period of time. Reshaped from dao and djinn long ago, they will willingly serve a generous master, though they always undertake work they enjoy before doing work that they must do. Tasked artist genies are poets, composers, musicians, sculptors, painters, and weavers. The craftsmen genies (who bitterly deny that their work is any less artistic than that of the pure artists) are potters, woodworkers, furniture makers, silversmiths, goldsmiths, decorative ironmongers, gemcutters, jade and ivory carvers, calligraphers, illuminators, gardeners, maskmakers, tailors, haberdashers, and seamstresses.

Mistreated artist genies will never produce superior work, though they have too much devotion to their craft to deliberately flaw a work (unless they are consistently abused with no hope of escape). Regardless of how hard they try, works produced by enslaved or charmed artist genies are never quite as good as those they make when they are free to pursue their work as they choose.

Of all the tasked genies, artist genies vary the most in their appearance, perhaps because the work they do varies so much.  Sculptors have powerful shoulders from handling and hammering stone, weavers have powerful arms and quick fingers for throwing a shuttle across a loom, and painters may be quite frail but have a sharp eye for details and decoration. The craftsmen genies all have nimble fingers and a good sense of proportion. 

Combat: Although their professional skills vary, all artist genies have a set of spell-like abilities in common. They are able to use each of the following spell-like abilities twice per day: duodimension, mirror image, illusion, polymorph self, and stone shape.

The illusions of artist genies create both tactile and visual components which last without concentration until dispelled or touched with cold iron. These are often used to give visible form to mental models and ideas before a final, lasting product is produced. It may also be used by the less scrupulous artist genies to satisfy their patrons without a great deal of effort being expended in actual work.

Habitat/Society: Artist genies are adaptable and generally take on the trappings of the group they work for or live among. They are particularly sharp rivals with each other, as few others can match their skills. Artist genies will talk shop with anyone they consider able to understand their achievements; they have only scorn for the unskilled or untalented.

In their dress, artist genies either push the boundaries of the latest design and daring or wear the most shabby and dated clothing imaginable. The pure artists are entirely hedonistic, though this is manifested in various ways. Some artist genies require odd foods, such as stewed apples or fermented fish while others must have parks and scenic vistas to stroll along each day for relaxation and contemplation before their work will achieve its highest level. Others still wallow in drink or gluttony, constant hot scented baths, or exotic companionship. 

Slighting the work of an artist genie demands retribution, but this revenge can take many forms. A skilled critique by a knowledgable patron may earn only some vicious gossip in return. In the case of uninformed criticism by a pretender to knowledge, some artist genies are unstable enough to simply hurl themselves at their detractor, regardless of the consequences. Others are wise enough to enjoy more subtle forms of revenge (for example, creating a work that ridicules the offending party). Sometimes revenge takes the form of a gift that is given to some rival of the tactless speaker, or a mysterious increase in the cost of producing new work for a patron. Some forms of revenge are fatal, such as a potter genie adding enough poison to a clay vessel to slowly kill anyone who eats or drinks from it.

Ecology: Artist genies are dependant on refined patrons and high levels of cultural achievement. Although they may be found anywhere, their skills are only fully appreciated by the knowledgable. Their material needs are often neglected in favor of getting the materials they require, for an artist genie taken away from the tools of its trade and forced into idleness for protracted periods either dies or goes mad.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix (1992).


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## Cleon (Apr 17, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Again, he phrases it perfectly, although there are no spell requirements for magical treatment.
> 
> Is there anything else we need to deal with on the Builder Genies?




Not for standard magically reinforced walls, but I recall there was a Dragon magazine with rules for enchanted fortifications (Stuff like Spell Resistant walls, rooms with dimension lock and so on), some of which included spell prereqs so I thought it best to cover all the bases.

Anyhow, I checked the builder's stats and he looks fine.

On to the Artist!


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## Cleon (Apr 17, 2010)

Well these are obviously 9 Hit Dice Medium Outsiders without much AC.

Extraplanar or Native? It could go either way.

The description "Sculptors have powerful shoulders from handling and hammering stone,  weavers have powerful arms and quick fingers for throwing a shuttle  across a loom, and painters may be quite frail but have a sharp eye for  details and decoration." may suggests their abilities might vary according to what artform they are tasked with, but I'd prefer to keep that as flavour only.

Besides, all the Craft skills are Int-based, so having a high Str, Dex or Wis would not make any difference to them.

For the ability scores, I think I'd start out with a Jann...

Jann: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 13

Hmm, Artist Genies have Genius Intelligence (17-18), so I'd boost the Int by 4 add 2 to its other  mental stats.

Their "powerful arms" and "nimble fingers" suggest a good Str and Dex. 

Hmm, I think Strength 16 is enough but we could increase the Dex. These creatures are normally formed from Djinni (Dex 19) or Dao (Dex 12). I fancy giving them a Djinni's Dexterity and a Jann's +1 natural armour, since that would give us an Armour Class equivalent to the original's AC5. I'd leave the Con at 12.

*Artist Genie:* Str 16, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 17, Cha 15, natural +1


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## freyar (Apr 17, 2010)

Proposed abilities are fine by me.

I propose sticking to extraplanar for all of the tasked genies, unless one of them screams "native."


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## Cleon (Apr 18, 2010)

freyar said:


> Proposed abilities are fine by me.
> 
> I propose sticking to extraplanar for all of the tasked genies, unless one of them screams "native."




Yes, Extraplanar would suit me too, I just wasn't much bothered either way.

I've just realized they're 7 Hit Dice, not 9. Must have misplaced their Move line.

Speaking of which, Move 9" seems a bit slow. I'd rather give them the humanoid standard land speed of 30 ft.

Two 1d6 slam attacks, as if they were a downsized Djinn or Efreet?

Since they've got the same HD as a Djinn and are often descended from them they probably have the same HD advancement of 8-10 HD (size), 11-21 (size+1).

So far we've got:

*Genie, Tasked, Artist*
Medium Outsider (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 7d8+7 (38 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+4 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+10
Attack: Slam +10 melee (1d6+3)
Full Attack: 2 slams +10 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft.
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +9, Will +8
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 17, Cha 15
Skills: 12 at 10 ranks
Feats: 3
Environment: ?
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: ?
Treasure: Standard coins; triple goods; standard items
Alignment: Always chaotic neutral
Advancement: 8-10 HD (Medium); 11-21 HD (Large) ?
Level Adjustment: —


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## Number 6 (Apr 20, 2010)

Any reason that all three Feats shouldn't be Skill Focus... perhaps Skill Focus: Craft (specific type) or Perform (specific type), Profession: artist or craftsman, and Alertness.

The reason I suggest Alertness comes from running on the theory that these folks are observant and if they try to capture the image of something like a landscape for a painting, someone's likeness in sculpture, or so on, they keenly observe their subject.

Obviously, that's not very realistic... Beethoven was deaf, Ray Charles was blind, and so on.  I'm not trying to pattern reality, but thought it might reflect on the genies' perceptive abilities and not necessarily how good their ears or eyes work.

Also, I can't think of anything else for a third Feat.   I gotta admit... I'm at a loss for this genie.


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## Cleon (Apr 20, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Any reason that all three Feats shouldn't be Skill Focus... perhaps Skill Focus: Craft (specific type) or Perform (specific type), Profession: artist or craftsman, and Alertness.




I don't think Alertness is quite right, they seem too focused on their Craft/Art to be alert about their general surrounding.

Giving them Skill Focus (Craft) or Perform (Art) for the first feat and Profession (artist or craftsmen) on top of that makes good sense.

They'll also be fine judges of their profession, so maybe Skill Focus (Appraise) for the last feat?


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## Shade (Apr 20, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

Since they originally derived from djinn and dao stock, I'd recommend "Elemental Plane of Air and Elemental Plane of Earth" for the Environment, and swap out Aquan for Auran in the languages.



			
				Number 6 said:
			
		

> Any reason that all three Feats shouldn't be Skill Focus... perhaps Skill Focus: Craft (specific type) or Perform (specific type), Profession: artist or craftsman, and Alertness.




No reason at all.  I think Skill Focus (Craft [any]), Skill Focus (Perform [any]), and Skill Focus (Profession [any]) works fine.

I think you talked me (and yourself) out of Alertness.  



> Combat: Although their professional skills vary, all artist genies have a set of spell-like abilities in common. They are able to use each of the following spell-like abilities twice per day: duodimension, mirror image, illusion, polymorph self, and stone shape.




Polymorph can be replaced with the common genie trait of change shape.  For "illusion", we can either give them a single SLA or several.   Djinn have persistent image, so it should be at least that good.  Anyone remember what "duodimension" does?



> The illusions of artist genies create both tactile and visual components which last without concentration until dispelled or touched with cold iron. These are often used to give visible form to mental models and ideas before a final, lasting product is produced. It may also be used by the less scrupulous artist genies to satisfy their patrons without a great deal of effort being expended in actual work.




Perhaps we should give them a racial bonus on save DCs of their illusions?


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## Cleon (Apr 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Since they originally derived from djinn and dao stock, I'd recommend "Elemental Plane of Air and Elemental Plane of Earth" for the Environment, and swap out Aquan for Auran in the languages.
> 
> No reason at all.  I think Skill Focus (Craft [any]), Skill Focus (Perform [any]), and Skill Focus (Profession [any]) works fine.




That'd be all right as far as I'm concerned.



Shade said:


> Polymorph can be replaced with the common genie trait of change shape.  For "illusion", we can either give them a single SLA or several.   Djinn have persistent image, so it should be at least that good.  Anyone remember what "duodimension" does?




_Duodimension _is a high-level AD&D spell (it's in the 1E PHB, but I don't recall offhand where else) that turns the caster 2 dimensional. Basically the caster is immune to attacks from the sides because they "simply aren't their", but can attack and be attacked normally from the front. So all they have to do to become immune to an attack from a particular direction is turn "sideways" to it.

Plus, the caster can walk through the cracks around doors and, presumably, stand against a wall and pretend to be a _very _good painting.

As far as I know there's no official 3E equivalent, but I'm sure we can come up with some Su power that does the same job.


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## Shade (Apr 20, 2010)

Heh.  I'm suddenly envisioning an ability called "Paint Itself Into a Corner" for the artist genie.  

It sounds like we could capture a similar effect with displacement and/or blur, perhaps?


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## freyar (Apr 21, 2010)

Displacement seems like a good fit for duodimension. I also like permanent image, so they can leave some illusory artwork behind (perhaps less often than persistent image).

The feats are good with me.


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## Cleon (Apr 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Heh.  I'm suddenly envisioning an ability called "Paint Itself Into a  Corner" for the artist genie.
> 
> It sounds like we could capture a similar effect with displacement  and/or blur, perhaps?






freyar said:


> Displacement seems like a good fit for duodimension. I also like permanent image, so they can leave some illusory artwork behind (perhaps less often than persistent image).




I don't like the idea of displacement/blur. That would seem to make it a combat defense ability, and these fellows are artists, not fighters.

How about a _statue_-like ability to turn itself into an 2D image of itself, becoming a painting or relief carving on a wall, man-high vase or the like. It could be effectively incorporeal while in "flat form".


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## Shade (Apr 22, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I don't like the idea of displacement/blur. That would seem to make it a combat defense ability, and these fellows are artists, not fighters.
> 
> How about a _statue_-like ability to turn itself into an 2D image of itself, becoming a painting or relief carving on a wall, man-high vase or the like. It could be effectively incorporeal while in "flat form".




I'm not 100% opposed to that idea, but I fail to see how it's any less "combat defensive" than those other spells (or mirror image, for that matter)?

Also, these fellow are haughty and arrogant, and not listed as cowardly, so I'd think they'd want to flaunt their "artistic merits" even in battle.

Finally, they are big on illusions, and blur and displacement are both illusion spells.  

It might be fun to create an ability that allows them to quickly draw, sculpt, or otherwise craft an ally in battle.  Perhaps they can create animated objects "on the fly" that quickly fall apart (a few rounds)?


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## Number 6 (Apr 22, 2010)

For your review, the seventh level Wizard spell _Duo-Dimension_ from the 2nd-edition Player's Handbook (page 184)...



> *Duo-Dimension* (Alteration)
> 
> *    Range:* 0
> *Components:* V, S, M
> ...



While Cleon makes a good point, the spell certainly has defensive combat applications... it's duration is measured in mere rounds, it protects the subject totally on the sides (but has a clear Achilles' Heel in terms of damage taken from the front and back), and surely it would make fighting in narrower passages and fleeing through gates and gaps much easier.

It looks like the spell was not included in 3rd edition for a good reason.  One of our options is to sh*t-can this ability for the Artist Genies, or at least substitute other, more reasonable abilities.

I'm not sure... it could simply boil down to giving the genie a great Hide bonus when impersonating a painting or a relief, a great dodge bonus (because of the very flat surface), and/or allowing it to squeeze through smaller areas that are up to two sizes lower without penalty.

We're going to need to chew this one over a little.


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## Number 6 (Apr 22, 2010)

One important point regarding Duo-Dimension that just came to mind... 

Character/Creature facing in combat is no longer much of an issue, is it?  That might have been one of the main reasons the spell doesn't appear in 3rd-edition, right?


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## freyar (Apr 22, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> One important point regarding Duo-Dimension that just came to mind...
> 
> Character/Creature facing in combat is no longer much of an issue, is it?  That might have been one of the main reasons the spell doesn't appear in 3rd-edition, right?



Yes, and I think the concealment miss chance is about the closest thing to this spell as 3e has (esp if you added in a double-damage when hit).  

I'm really inclined to stick to displacement or blur.

If we want to go the "draw ally" route Shade suggests, we might draw inspiration from the fantastic machine (I think) spells from FR (I think Magic of Faerun).  I don't have my books at work, but I could look these up tonight if no one has it handy.


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## Number 6 (Apr 22, 2010)

I'm just spitballing on this... haven't thought any of it through yet, but let's see about this:

If we chose to make a substitution for Duo-Dimension it could be a Supernatural ability to Impersonate Artwork.  Allow the Artist Genie to use a transformation spell with a Craft, Performance, or Profession check... that check then works as Disguise or Hide check providing the skill is suitable as a singer or poet couldn't really impersonate a poem or a song.

Sculptors could temporarily transform into statues or a relief to blend in with similar works, a painter could transform into a framed canvas and appear to be a portrait of himself, and so on.

Allow the effect to last as long as one round per Caster Level.  Perhaps the ability is limited to changing the Artist Genie into something of the same size or up to one size smaller.  Maybe the Artist Genie is considered Prone until he resumes his natural form.


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## Number 6 (Apr 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> It might be fun to create an ability that allows them to quickly draw, sculpt, or otherwise craft an ally in battle.  Perhaps they can create animated objects "on the fly" that quickly fall apart (a few rounds)?



That's not a bad idea at all... could it be done in a fashion similar to Shadow Conjuration (or Greater Shadow Conjuration?) but only usable to create temporary creatures and objects?


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## freyar (Apr 22, 2010)

If we really want to go with a "turn into artwork" SQ, I think we've got a lot of good examples.  Caryatid column, the tomb wardens we're working on right now, etc.


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## Cleon (Apr 23, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> For your review, the seventh level Wizard spell _Duo-Dimension_ from the 2nd-edition Player's Handbook (page 184)...




That's a bit different from how I recalled it, I'd either misremembered it or the 2E version is quite different from the 1E one.

In this version the duodimensional creature is either in the material plane as a 2D object or turned "orthogonally to reality" and effectively invisible and incorporeal. There's no flanking to worry about.

That's easier to stat up in 3E if we wanted to, with some text pinched from  ethereal jaunt.

Something like:*Duodimensional (Su):* Twice per day, an artist genie can turn itself into a two-dimensional object, with height and width but no thickness. In this state the genie has vulnerability to weapons, taking 50% extra damage from any weapon attack that hits it, but it can automatically squeeze through extremely tight spaces (as if it had an infinite Escape Artist skill), use its thinness to conceal itself from opponents (+X circumstance bonus on Hide checks) or stand against a flat surface and pretend to be a lifesize portrait (Disguise check with a +Y circumstance bonus). The genie can stay duodimensional for a duration of up to Z rounds.

In addition, an artist genie in duodimensional can turn itself "sideways from reality" and partially shift from the Material Plane to the Astral Plane as a free action, it can shift back from partially-Astral to Material form as a move action. The genie is incorporeal and invisible on the Material Plane while so "rotated", but is corporeal and visible on the Astral Plane. The artist genie will automatically return to the material plane if the duration of the duodimensional power runs out.​If we decide to drop the "sideways from reality" portion of the power we simply cut the second paragraph.


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## Cleon (Apr 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> It might be fun to create an ability that allows them to quickly draw, sculpt, or otherwise craft an ally in battle.  Perhaps they can create animated objects "on the fly" that quickly fall apart (a few rounds)?




I'd rather not, since there's no mention of such an animate objects power in the original. Besides, wouldn't it be damaging its own beloved artworks?

Besides it says they're masters of illusion, so if you're set on a "create ally" power I'd prefer to add _shadow conjuration_ or _greater shadow conjuration_ to its SLAs.


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2010)

I think there's enough support to simplify things to blur and displacement, and drop Cleon's and my own "artistic license" powers.

So 2/day for each, like the other SLAs?  Or increase the frequency of some of the SLAs?  Most genies have a few "at wills", a few 3/day, and a few 1/day.


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## freyar (Apr 23, 2010)

Cleon's duodimension is ok, though I really think it should also get (total) concealment, since it's harder to hit, not just harder to see (better at Hiding).  I'm also fine with simplifying to displacement, but there seems to be some opinion against that.

No big opinion on adding an ally/summoning power.

Edit: I see that Shade got a post in there.  Why not go 3/day for blur and 1/day for displacement?


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## Number 6 (Apr 23, 2010)

[_I spent so much time between writing this and posting it that a couple more posts came in. Sorry about that._]


The basic gist of Duo-Dimension was 1) temporary, limited invisibility, and to a lesser degree 2) radically diminished width to avoid attacks and squeeze through tight spaces.

In the interest of keeping things simple, I recommend we simply allow Artist Genies to have _Invisibility_ as a SLA three times per day, give them a SPA or Supernatural ability that grants them a +4 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves (lasting 1 round/caster level) as many as three times per day, and allow Artist Genies to Change Shape into sizes from Tiny to Huge.

That's merely my recommendation... I'm not quite willing to die on that hill to set it in stone.


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2010)

Since they're already a bit light on SLAs, adding invisibility, along with blur and displacment, appeals.

I'm not sure about expanding their Change Shape ability to include Tiny and Huge, but it's definitely do-able.  If we do that, I think the size bonuses to AC will negate the need for the dodge bonus special ability.  For the boost to Reflex saves, I'd rather give 'em cat's grace or Lightning Reflexes as a bonus feat.


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## Number 6 (Apr 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm not sure about expanding their Change Shape ability to include Tiny and Huge, but it's definitely do-able.  If we do that, I think the size bonuses to AC will negate the need for the dodge bonus special ability.  For the boost to Reflex saves, I'd rather give 'em cat's grace or Lightning Reflexes as a bonus feat.



Now that I've seen Cleon's post regarding his recommended *Duodimensional (Su)* ability, it is a rather good 3rd-edition version. For what it's worth, I'd eliminate the sideways-dimension aspect.

The vast advantage with Escape Artist checks might be problematic as they will always get out of Grapples.  Perhaps instead of a near infinite bonus to Escape Artist, a straightforward +20 bonus would be better.


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## Cleon (Apr 23, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Now that I've seen Cleon's post regarding his recommended *Duodimensional (Su)* ability, it is a rather good 3rd-edition version. For what it's worth, I'd eliminate the sideways-dimension aspect.
> 
> The vast advantage with Escape Artist checks might be problematic as they will always get out of Grapples.  Perhaps instead of a near infinite bonus to Escape Artist, a straightforward +20 bonus would be better.




It'd need to be higher than that since the Escape Artist check to squeeze through a 2" wide tight space is DC 80 according to the Epic Rules.

However, since giving them nigh-infinite Escape Artist has undesirable consequences, I think we'd be better just saying "it can automatically squeeze through cracks tall enough to accommodate its height" rather than giving it an Escape Artist bonus.


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2010)

I feel like we're having two conversations here.  In one, we're talking about a unique duodimension Su power.  In the other, we're talking about invisibility, blur, and displacement.  Can we just choose?  (I seriously wish the original designer hadn't gone for something so weird.)

Before we start chattering on these, can we just each vote and wait till we hear back from everyone (which means waiting for Shade on Monday)?

I vote for the 3 SLAs.  I'm just guessing about the designer's intent, and I think invisibility, blur, and displacement does the job.  It's not a strong opinion, but it seems simpler to go with the SLAs.


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## Cleon (Apr 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> I vote for the 3 SLAs.  I'm just guessing about the designer's intent, and I think invisibility, blur, and displacement does the job.  It's not a strong opinion, but it seems simpler to go with the SLAs.




You already knew I was going to vote duodimensional, didn't you?

It's the big disadvantage of being flat, people can read you like a book.


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## Shade (Apr 26, 2010)

My vote's the same as freyar's.


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## Number 6 (Apr 26, 2010)

I'm perfectly willing to help refine either choice... so Splunge for me.


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## freyar (Apr 27, 2010)

Maybe this is a chance for another Cleon special?


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## Shade (Apr 27, 2010)

So...2/day for each, like the other SLAs?  Or increase the frequency of some of the SLAs?  Most genies have a few "at wills", a few 3/day, and a few 1/day.


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## Number 6 (Apr 27, 2010)

How about 2/day for _Blur_ and _Displacement_... with 3/day for _Invisibility_?

Where are we at with Shadow Conjuration?  Did we rule that out?


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## Cleon (Apr 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> Maybe this is a chance for another Cleon special?




How do you know I haven't already done one.


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## Cleon (Apr 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> So...2/day for each, like the other SLAs?  Or  increase the frequency of some of the SLAs?  Most genies have a few "at  wills", a few 3/day, and a few 1/day.




I'd like to add some at-wills.

Maybe at-will _ghost sound_ and _minor image_ since they're good at illusions?



Number 6 said:


> How about 2/day for _Blur_ and _Displacement_... with 3/day for _Invisibility_?
> 
> Where are we at with Shadow Conjuration?  Did we rule that out?




I'd like to give them _shadow conjuration_ as a 1/day.


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## Shade (Apr 27, 2010)

I find all of that appealing.


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2010)

Works for me, so we can move on!


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2010)

Updated.

Skills: 12 at 10 ranks
Appraise, Craft, Perform, Profession...

Shall we give them some racial bonuses on artistic skills?

Feats: 3
Skill Focus...


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2010)

Appraise, Concentration, Craft (any 3), Forgery, Perform (any 2), Profession (any 3), Sleight of Hand ??  I could easily be persuaded to change some of the Craft, Perform, or Profession skills out.

A racial bonus is probably appropriate.


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## Number 6 (Apr 30, 2010)

One or two of the Profession skills might give way for one or more Knowledge skills... perhaps Architecture/Engineering, Geography, History, Local, or Nature at half the number of ranks.  Artists might have a reasonable level of knowledge on certain subjects for which they paint, sculpt, or write epic poems.  I'd certainly err on giving them fewer points for these skills.

Other than that, I'm drawing a blank right now.


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## Cleon (Apr 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> Appraise, Concentration, Craft (any 3), Forgery,  Perform (any 2), Profession (any 3), Sleight of Hand ??  I could easily  be persuaded to change some of the Craft, Perform, or Profession skills  out.
> 
> A racial bonus is probably appropriate.




From the description these Tasked Genie specialize in a single craft, so they don't need that many Crafts, Performs and Professions. 

Hmm, I'd also be tempted to drop Sleight of Hand. They may have nimble fingers but they don't seem to be thieves.

I'd give them a +4 racial bonus on art-related skills.

Maybe Use Magic Device to cover magical tools for making Art?



Number 6 said:


> One or two of the Profession skills might give way for one or more Knowledge skills... perhaps Architecture/Engineering, Geography, History, Local, or Nature at half the number of ranks.  Artists might have a reasonable level of knowledge on certain subjects for which they paint, sculpt, or write epic poems.  I'd certainly err on giving them fewer points for these skills.
> 
> Other than that, I'm drawing a blank right now.




I'd  drop Architecture/Engineering, since that's more the province of a Builder Genie, and replace it with Nobility and Royalty, since that covers the genies' most likely patrons.

I could also see them having Knowledge (arcana) or (religion) if they're producing symbolic or ceremonial artworks.

That makes eight Knowledge Skills plus seven others. If we give it half points in the Knowledge skills that'd be equal to eleven maxed-out skills, leaving one skill to use up the points.

Diplomacy for impressing and manipulating clients?

That'd make it:

*Skill Ranks:* Appraise *10**, Concentration *10*, Craft (any one) *10**, Diplomacy *10*, Forgery *10*,  Knowledge (Arcana, Geography, History, Local, Nature, Religion, Nobility and Royalty) *5* ranks each, Perform (any one) *10**, Profession (any one) *10**, Use Magic Device *10*

*An Artist genie gains a +4 racial bonus on Appraise, Craft, Perform and Profession checks related to its specialization (painting, armoursmithing, et cetera).


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2010)

I'm not sure about arcana, geography, or local in particular.  But I'm not sure of what skills to give this, so that list is ok.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2010)

I'd simplify Knowledge to "any x" (4 to yield the same number of ranks).  It's possible that a painter could be fond of extraplanar landscapes, for example.

Otherwise, the skills appeal.


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## Cleon (May 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'd simplify Knowledge to "any x" (4 to yield the same number of ranks).  It's possible that a painter could be fond of extraplanar landscapes, for example.
> 
> Otherwise, the skills appeal.




I prefer either 8 Knowledge skills at 5 ranks, or 4 Knowledges at 5 ranks plus an extra Craft and Perform skill at 10 ranks.

It doesn't feel right to me giving them deep knowledge of these subjects, I'd think they just need enough to inform their work.


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## freyar (May 3, 2010)

I'm with Cleon.  Let's do 4 Know at 5 ranks with the extra Craft and I'll say Profession instead of Perform (though it doesn't matter much).


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## Number 6 (May 3, 2010)

One of the Perform skills should be one of the Artist Genie's potential skills... as poems and music are listed in the descriptions.

I would also think Sleight of Hand could fit since the skill has a number of applications outside of thieving... in fact, that's one of the reasons the skill is no longer called Pick Pockets.  Surely, it should not have more than five ranks... Cleon's point that these folks should not be masters of all of those secondary skills.

As an alternative to Diplomacy, Sense Motive might be their method of sizing up their subject or patron, sensing their intent, and possibly as a way of bringing out the most of his subject.


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## Shade (May 3, 2010)

Number 6's suggestions make good sense.

How about:

Skill Ranks: Appraise 10*, Concentration 10, Craft (any one) 10*, Craft (any one) 5*, Diplomacy 10, Forgery 10, Knowledge (any 4) 5 ranks each, Perform (any one) 10*, Profession (any one) 10*, Sense Motive 10, Sleight of Hand 5, Use Magic Device 10

*An Artist genie gains a +4 racial bonus on Appraise, Craft, Perform and Profession checks related to its specialization (painting, armoursmithing, et cetera).


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## freyar (May 3, 2010)

Sounds good!


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## Number 6 (May 4, 2010)

Regarding Feats... how about three from the following:

Hover, Quicken Spell-Like Ability for one or more of the At Will or multiple use/day SLAs, Iron Will, Skill Focus (a likely choice), or maybe something else instead.


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## Cleon (May 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> Number 6's suggestions make good sense.
> 
> How about:
> 
> ...




Those skills look fine.


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## Cleon (May 5, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Regarding Feats... how about three from the following:
> 
> Hover, Quicken Spell-Like Ability for one or more of the At Will or multiple use/day SLAs, Iron Will, Skill Focus (a likely choice), or maybe something else instead.




It wouldn't get much use out of Hover, _*since it can't fly*_.

With a caster level of 19 it could get Quicken Spell-Like Ability for any of its SLAs, including _shadow conjuration_.

We could give them Skill Focus (Craft) as a bonus feat 

Djinn and Efreet get Improved Initiative as a bonus feat, so I'm thinking an Artist Genie should to, since they're derived from one. They also both have Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes and Dodge. I'd be tempted to give them one of the first two. If I remember correctly Artist Genies sometimes go ax-crazy if their works are defiled or insulted, and they are the most likely genie to transform into a Tasked Slayer Genie. That makes me think Combat Reflexes would be the most appropriate combat feat.

That would make:

*Feats:* Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative *, Iron Will, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (invisibility), Skill Focus (Craft) *


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## Shade (May 5, 2010)

Those feats appeal.

Updated.


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## Cleon (May 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> Those feats appeal.
> 
> Updated.




Looks good, that just leaves us with Challenge Rating and descriptive text.

Their stats aren't that different from the SRD Janni, so they should probably have the same CR4. Their spells are a bit more useful and they do a bit more damage in melee, but Janni can fly and have missile weapons, which should even things up!


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## freyar (May 10, 2010)

CR 4 seems right.


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## Shade (May 10, 2010)

Updated.  Finished?


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## Number 6 (May 10, 2010)

Looks good to me.

Should we continue on to Administrator Tasked Genies or stay within MC13 before going to the ALQ sourcebooks and adventures?  The standards in MC13 seem to have a broader appeal, but the others are useful in particular encounters and scenarios.


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## Shade (May 10, 2010)

I'd planned to finish off MC13 first.  I have the guardian "on deck" once the others have a last chance to comment on the artists.


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## freyar (May 11, 2010)

I'm happy with it.


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## Cleon (May 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'd planned to finish off MC13 first.  I have the guardian "on deck" once the others have a last chance to comment on the artists.




I'd rather continue with the rest of the MC12 Tasked Genies.

As for the updated Artist Genie, it's looking good apart from one niggle:

600 to 800 pounds seems awfully heavy for a 7 foot tall humanoid.

I'd suggest 200-400 pounds to cover a range from "athletic" to "obese".


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## Shade (May 12, 2010)

Sounds good.  I'll fix it.

Here's the next one...

*Genie, Tasked, Guardian*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: High (14)
TREASURE: F,G,Z
ALIGNMENT: Lawful
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -4
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 14
THAC0: 7
NO. OF ATTACKS: 4
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10/1-10/1-10/1-10 or by weapon +8 (x4)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 25%
SIZE: L (10’ tall)
MORALE: Fanatical (17-18)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 13,000

Guardian genies are powerful spirits sworn to defend specific items and locations tirelessly and without fail. They were once efreet, but have been reshaped to be both sleepless and loyal to the exact wording of their oath.

Guardian tasked genies have one face which watches forward and another which watches backward. They have dark red skin as thick as rhinoceros hide and are completely bald. They have four powerfully muscled arms, which make them formidable in combat. A typical guardian genie stands 10’ tall and weighs 2,700 pounds. Guardian genies do not wear armor, as their thick hide and magical nature make them very difficult to hit, and armor would merely slow them down. Some of their masters, however, occasionally give them protective magical items, which they are expected to use.

Combat: Guardian tasked genies move with inhuman speed despite their bulk, gaining a -4 initiative modifier in all forms of combat (although their initiative result never drops below 0). They target spell-casters before all others. Guardian genies are able to wield weapons in all four hands simultaneously without penalty. They can engage and attack up to four opponents at once, though they usually concentrate their attention on just one or two. Their preferred weapons are scimitars, cutlasses, great scimitars, and throwing axes and daggers. When using weapons they gain all the benefits of a Strength ability of 20. 

The hearing of guardian genies is acute enough to pick up a feather falling onto a stone at a hundred paces; this, combined with their 360-degree vision, makes them impossible to surprise.  Guardian genies never sleep.

Due to their innate magical ability, guardian genies can use each of the following spell-like powers twice per day: shout, alarm, silence (15’ radius), detect invisibility, guards and wards, wyvern watch, and sepia snake sigil. They can employ blade barrier once per day.

Guardian tasked genies are unaffected by all illusion/ phantasm and enchantment/charm spells. All other magic  ffects them normally if it overcomes their magic resistance.

Guardian genies can breathe a cloud of green fire 30’ in diameter directly in front of themselves once per day. The cloud of fire causes 14d6 points of damage to those caught in its area of effect, with a save allowed versus breath weapon for half damage. The cloud resembles the fiery breath of the fire eaters sometimes seen in the suqs and bazaars of Zakhara.

Guardian genies have a 20% chance to possess powers in addition to the ones listed above and a 30% chance to have powers that simply replace 1-4 of the above powers. Examples might include flight, detect lie, the ability to shape glyphs of warding or explosive runes, hold portal, dimension door, and other abilities that might be expected to help a guardian.

Habitat/Society: Guardian tasked genies are solitary creatures and dislike social interaction. They speak in very clipped sentences if required to, but they do not encourage questioning. In fact, they are completely humorless about their tasks, following out their routines and procedures with methodical precision. They are perfectly willing to describe what they are guarding and who commanded them to guard it, though they will not tell anyone about what they can do to prevent its theft. (One of the conditions of their service is that they be told everything about the items left in their care.) Guardian genies will not guard living creatures. Guardian genies cannot be bribed and will attack any creature that attempts to do so. 

Guardian tasked genies have no love of death and violence, although they are more than competent at dealing out both. If possible, they will use threats and warnings rather than immediately resorting to magical or physical combat.

Guardian tasked genies serve for limited periods of time; when their tour of duty at a given site is up, their services must be renegotiated. Since their contracts are typically for 101 or 1001 years, their former masters are often not around to renew their arrangements.

Ecology: In some ways, guardian tasked genies are frustrated creatures, for they can never finish a task and go on to do something else as craftsmen genies of various kinds can. They are required by their nature to be constantly vigilant. No genie will touch a treasure guarded by the tasked guardian genies, though they may advise others how a guarded treasure might be taken.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix (1992).


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## Number 6 (May 12, 2010)

They ought to be stronger, more dexterous, and hardier than efreet... but do we dare give them a +10 natural armor?  Perhaps a Deflection bonus to their Armor Class?  I've only seen those bonuses occasionally, and don't quite remember if Deflection bonuses are only for certain types of creatures.

Maybe bigger damage dice.  Certainly they ought to have the Improved Initiative and Multiattack feats, possibly Alertness but we can easily devote a nice chuck of the Skill Ranks to Listen, Search, and Spot as well as racial bonuses.

They ought to get the benefit of something like *Ubiquitous Vision*, possibly as a supernatural ability:
_...In  effect, you have a 360-degree sphere of sight, allowing you a perfect  view of creatures that might otherwise flank you. Thus, flanking  opponents gain no bonus on their attack rolls, and rogues are denied  their sneak attack ability because you do not lose your Dexterity bonus  (but they may still sneak attack you if you are caught flat-footed).  Your Spot and Search checks gain a +4  enhancement bonus. Concurrently, you take a -4 penalty on saves against  all gaze attacks during the power’s duration._


*Hit Points* 119 (14d10 +42)
*Initiative* +8
*Speed* 40'
*Armor Class* 22 (-1 size, +5 Dex, +8 natural)
*Base Attack / Grapple* +14 / +25
*Attack* slam +20 (2d6 +7) or weapon +20 (by weapon); *Full Attack* four slams +20 (2d6 +7) or four weapons +20 (by weapon)
*SR* 25
*Str* 24, *Dex* 20, *Con* 16, *Int* 14, *Wis* 15, *Cha* 12
*Feats* Improved Initiative, Multiattack, plus others


The additional or alternative powers might get odd... perhaps we should spell out some additional/alternative powers with more details.  Is it worth the extra work?


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## Cleon (May 13, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> They ought to be stronger, more dexterous, and hardier than efreet... but do we dare give them a +10 natural armor?  Perhaps a Deflection bonus to their Armor Class?  I've only seen those bonuses occasionally, and don't quite remember if Deflection bonuses are only for certain types of creatures.




Yes we should dare! These things ought to be really nasty in a fight. They've got to fight off PCs, remember.

They're as Strong as AD&D Stone Giants (Str 20, but Str 27 in 3E) and their -4 surprise adjustment is the same as for AD&D Dex 19-20 if I remember rightly.

A rhinoceros has a +7 NA bonus in 3E doesn't it? I'd like to add on another bonus for the "magical nature make them very difficult to hit"?

So I'm thinking:

*Abilities:* Str 26, Dex 19, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 15, +7 NA, +4 deflection

*Deflect Attacks (Su):* A guardian genie gains a +4 deflection bonus to its AC if it is not wearing any armour.



Number 6 said:


> Maybe bigger damage dice.  Certainly they ought to have the Improved Initiative and Multiattack feats, possibly Alertness but we can easily devote a nice chuck of the Skill Ranks to Listen, Search, and Spot as well as racial bonuses.




Djinn and Efreet get Improved Initiative as a bonus feat, so I reckon the Guardian Genie ought to as well.

I'd just give them a modified form of the Marilith's natural multiweapon ability. It'd be simpler... and nastier.
*Combat*
Each of a guardian genie’s four arms can wield a melee or throwing weapon without penalty,  and the creature can make full iterative attacks with its primary arm.​As for the damage, I'd be fine with giving them 1d8 slams like the SRD efreet or djinn but would rather boost its natural attacks to 1d10 like the original draft.

Now I know it says they prefer scimitars but I'd rather give them Large longswords, since it'll give 2d6 damage instead of 1d8. Just imagine each longsword is a "cutlass" or "great scimitar".

Oh, and throwing axes for ranged attacks.



Number 6 said:


> They ought to get the benefit of something like *Ubiquitous Vision*, possibly as a supernatural ability:
> _...In  effect, you have a 360-degree sphere of sight, allowing you a perfect  view of creatures that might otherwise flank you. Thus, flanking  opponents gain no bonus on their attack rolls, and rogues are denied  their sneak attack ability because you do not lose your Dexterity bonus  (but they may still sneak attack you if you are caught flat-footed).  Your Spot and Search checks gain a +4  enhancement bonus. Concurrently, you take a -4 penalty on saves against  all gaze attacks during the power’s duration._




That looks good!

So my proposal is something like:

*Genie, Tasked, Guardian
Hit Dice:*  14d8+42 (105)
*Initiative:* +8
*Speed:* 40 ft.
*AC:* 24 (-1 size, +4 Dex, +4 deflection, +7 natural), touch 17, flat-footed 20
*BAB/Grapple:* +14/+25
*Attack:* Longsword +20 (2d6+8/19-20) or slam +20 (1d10+8);
*Full Attack:* Longsword +20/+15/+10 (2d6+8/19-20) and 3 longswords +20 (2d6+4/19-20); or 4 slams +20 (1d10+8)
*Saves:* Fort +12, Ref +13, Will +11
*Abilities:* Str 26, Dex 19, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 15
*Feats:* Improved Initiative (B), plus 5 others


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## Number 6 (May 13, 2010)

The natural multiweapon ability is perfect... I forgot all about that!

I originally offered the 2d6 damage for Slam as it was a step up on the progression table from the slam of standard genies, but I'd steer away from a 1d10... instead opting for 2d8.  Such a powerful combat-centered genie should have a nice average roll of 9 (17 after Strength bonuses) and a minimum of 2 (10 after Strength bonuses).


Thinking of Feats... I don't often like to give creatures and NPCs the Cleave feat, since the heroes (by their nature) don't often die or fall unconscious thus limiting the use of the feat.  However, this seems one of those instances when the creature, in my mine, ought to have it... a guardian genie protects his subject mercilessly.

I suggest Power Attack and Cleave... or, alternatively, perhaps Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Whirlwind Attack.


Looking at the SLAs: 
2/day - _alarm, see invisibility, sepia snake sigil, shout, silence_, & _guards and wards_... plus whatever we can make of _wyvern watch_. 

1/day - _Blade barrier_


About _wyvern watch_:


> *Level:* 2 (priest spell)
> *Sphere:* Guardian [Evocation]
> *Range:* 30 yards
> *Components:* V, S, M
> ...



Do we simply make it a _Glyph of Warding_?  Or do we bother to convert it into something?

I'm leaning toward dumping it in favor of an existing 3rd edition spell.


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## Shade (May 13, 2010)

Added to Homebrews (without SLAs and feats which we're still discussing).

Ubiquitious vision is essentially just all-around vision, isn't it?

I agree that we can drop wyvern watch.

We can probably mine a few additional SLAs from the efreet.

Gotta run to an appointment...


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## Number 6 (May 13, 2010)

I couldn't find All-Round Vision, but I remembered it from an earlier version of the psionic power... I thought there was a creature ability for that in the DMG, but couldn't find it on the SRD.


I'm not sure the guardian tasked genie needs additional SLAs from the efreet as it already looks like a powerhouse without adding more... but if you really want to tie the two together perhaps _detect magic _(at will) and _invisibility_ (3/day) fit well for the alternative powers or additional powers mentioned in the original description.


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## Shade (May 13, 2010)

It might still be more appropriate than all-around vision, though, since as you pointed out earlier, it's probably more supernatural in origin.

Those are good suggestions for the SLAs.


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## Cleon (May 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> It might still be more appropriate than all-around vision, though, since as you pointed out earlier, it's probably more supernatural in origin.
> 
> Those are good suggestions for the SLAs.




I like Number 6's proposals of Ubiquitous Vision.

We could give it _sepia snake sigil_ instead of _wyvern watch_, although glyph of warding would work in a pinch.

Finally, I'd add _alarm_ so it can monitor areas where it isn't physically present.

As for the feats.

I am tempted to give it Whirlwind Attack as a bonus feat. It probably won't use it much since it already has 4 +20 attacks and a +15 and +10 attack when full attacking. How often will it have enough opponent within Reach to Whirlwind? It probably won't use the feat much against PCs.

However, the original description says they usually attack up to 4 opponents, not everything within reach, so I'll reluctantly drop Whirlwind Attack.

Combat Expertise would be useful, as will Combat Reflexes.

Apart from that, I fancy Hold the Line and our old friends Power Attack and Improved Sunder.

*Feats:* Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative (B), Improved Sunder, Hold the Line, Power Attack


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## Number 6 (May 16, 2010)

The guardian genie already has:
*2/day -* _alarm, see invisibility, sepia snake sigil, shout, silence_, & _guards and wards_
*1/day -* _Blade barrier_

...at least those are the SLAs from the 2nd-edition version.   So it already has _alarm_ and _sepia snake sigil_.

For possible additional/alternative SLAs we might want to list: _fear, glyph of warding_ (unless we use it as a substitute for _wyvern watch_), _shield other_ (if ordered to protect a creature or person), _repulsion_, or _status_.


Which sourcebook does Hold the Line come from?  I'd like to check that out.


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## Cleon (May 16, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> The guardian genie already has:
> *2/day -* _alarm, see invisibility, sepia snake sigil, shout, silence_, & _guards and wards_
> *1/day -* _Blade barrier_
> 
> ...




Blast it, I must be going blind. I went to the trouble of looking through the AD&D entry just before I posted that and plain didn't see them.

The AD&D description specifically says "they will not guard living creatures", so I wouldn't give them _shield other_.

Although I do wonder whether they can bodyguard liches... 



Number 6 said:


> Which sourcebook does Hold the Line come from?  I'd like to check that out.




I think it might have been The Book of Exalted Deeds, but I'm not sure.

The salient point is *Hold the Line* is in the SRD, so we can use it freely.


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## Number 6 (May 17, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Blast it, I must be going blind. I went to the trouble of looking through the AD&D entry just before I posted that and plain didn't see them.



  Apparently the blindness is contagious:


Cleon said:


> The AD&D description specifically says "they will not guard living creatures", so I wouldn't give them _shield other_.



D'oh!  That's a double-dumbass on me!
lol


Cleon said:


> ...The salient point is *Hold the Line* is in the SRD, so we can use it freely.



Thanks for the link.  That's a damn nice feat... and suits the guardian genie quite well.


While scanning the original details again (meekly)... the green fire breath:
It's once per day and deals quite a lot of damage (14d6)... but it looks like Red Dragons fire breath does a number of dice (d10s) of damage equal to half it's Hit Dice.  Should we use this as a guide (and make it 7d6, which averages at 24 points of damage), or say "_to Hell with it, these bastards breathe *vicious* fire!_" but only on d6s (14d6, averaging 49 points)?

Considering it is only once per day, I suspect enough folks will want this to be the full 14d6... which seems reasonable.


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## Shade (May 17, 2010)

Cleon said:


> *Feats:* Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative (B), Improved Sunder, Hold the Line, Power Attack




I like all that except Improved Sunder.  Nothing really gives me a "break weapons" vibe with these guys.  Weapon Focus (longsword) perhaps?  Or, if you're a rat bastard DM like me, how about Improved Critical (longsword)?  That gets 'em closer to the scimitar's threat range.  



Number 6 said:


> Which sourcebook does Hold the Line come from?  I'd like to check that out.




Suprisingly, it comes from the _Expanded Psionics Handbook_.  



Number 6 said:


> While scanning the original details again (meekly)... the green fire breath:
> It's once per day and deals quite a lot of damage (14d6)... but it looks like Red Dragons fire breath does a number of dice (d10s) of damage equal to half it's Hit Dice.  Should we use this as a guide (and make it 7d6, which averages at 24 points of damage), or say "_to Hell with it, these bastards breathe *vicious* fire!_" but only on d6s (14d6, averaging 49 points)?
> 
> Considering it is only once per day, I suspect enough folks will want this to be the full 14d6... which seems reasonable.




See "rat bastard DM like me", above.


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## Cleon (May 17, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> While scanning the original details again (meekly)... the green fire breath:
> It's once per day and deals quite a lot of damage (14d6)... but it looks like Red Dragons fire breath does a number of dice (d10s) of damage equal to half it's Hit Dice.  Should we use this as a guide (and make it 7d6, which averages at 24 points of damage), or say "_to Hell with it, these bastards breathe *vicious* fire!_" but only on d6s (14d6, averaging 49 points)?
> 
> Considering it is only once per day, I suspect enough folks will want this to be the full 14d6... which seems reasonable.




7d6 hardly seems hardly worth its trouble. It does up to 12d6+36 full-attacking with its longswords, which is the equivalent to 21d6 (well, 21.28).

Methinks 1d6 per Hit Dice is quite reasonable.

*Breath Weapon (Su):* Once a day a guardian genie can breath out a 30 ft. cone of green flames doing 14d6 fire damage (1d6 per Hit Dice it possesses), with a DC 20 Reflex save for half damage. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## Cleon (May 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> I like all that except Improved Sunder.  Nothing really gives me a "break weapons" vibe with these guys.  Weapon Focus (longsword) perhaps?  Or, if you're a rat bastard DM like me, how about Improved Critical (longsword)?  That gets 'em closer to the scimitar's threat range.




Squeek squeek-squeek!

(For the non rat-bastard DMs amongst our readership, that means "Improved Critical is fine by me")


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## Shade (May 17, 2010)

Updated.



> The hearing of guardian genies is acute enough to pick up a feather falling onto a stone at a hundred paces; this, combined with their 360-degree vision, makes them impossible to surprise.




Add racial bonus on Listen checks?



> Guardian tasked genies are unaffected by all illusion/ phantasm and enchantment/charm spells. All other magic  ffects them normally if it overcomes their magic resistance.




Add immunity to charms, compulsions, and illusions?



> They target spell-casters before all others.




Add detect magic at will?



> Guardian genies have a 20% chance to possess powers in addition to the ones listed above and a 30% chance to have powers that simply replace 1-4 of the above powers. Examples might include flight, detect lie, the ability to shape glyphs of warding or explosive runes, hold portal, dimension door, and other abilities that might be expected to help a guardian.




How about just making these standard. Thus, something like...

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—detect magic; 3/day—dimension door, discern lies, fly, hold portal; 2/day—alarm, guards and wards, see invisibility, sepia snake sigil, shout, silence; 1/day—blade barrier, explosive runes, glyph of warding. Caster level xth. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## Number 6 (May 17, 2010)

...and add Spell Resistance at maybe 25.


And perhaps these skills:
Bluff (for combat purposes like Feint) 17, Climb 17, Intimidate 17, Jump 17, Listen 17, Move Silently 17, Sense Motive (again, for combat purposes) 17, Spot 17, Swim 17, Use Rope 17 (for binding captured intruders... if necessary)


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## Shade (May 18, 2010)

25% spell resistance translates to CR + 6.



> Guardian tasked genies have one face which watches forward and another which watches backward.




While I really like the ubiquitous vision ability, this seems to apply good ol' all-around vision, eh?



> Some of their masters, however, occasionally give them protective magical items, which they are expected to use.




Possible support for Use Magic Device.



> Habitat/Society: Guardian tasked genies are solitary creatures and dislike social interaction. They speak in very clipped sentences if required to, but they do not encourage questioning. In fact, they are completely humorless about their tasks, following out their routines and procedures with methodical precision. They are perfectly willing to describe what they are guarding and who commanded them to guard it, though they will not tell anyone about what they can do to prevent its theft. (One of the conditions of their service is that they be told everything about the items left in their care.) Guardian genies will not guard living creatures. Guardian genies cannot be bribed and will attack any creature that attempts to do so.




Support for Sense Motive and against Diplomacy.



> Guardian tasked genies have no love of death and violence, although they are more than competent at dealing out both. If possible, they will use threats and warnings rather than immediately resorting to magical or physical combat.




Support for Intimidate.



			
				Number 6 said:
			
		

> And perhaps these skills:
> Bluff (for combat purposes like Feint) 17, Climb 17, Intimidate 17, Jump 17, Listen 17, Move Silently 17, Sense Motive (again, for combat purposes) 17, Spot 17, Swim 17, Use Rope 17 (for binding captured intruders... if necessary)




That's a pretty good list.  Based on the info above, I'd recommend replacing Swim with Use Magic Device.  Probably some Search as well, in case it's treasure is stolen and it needs to track down the thieves.  Also, enough Concentration to snap off its SLAs without drawing AoOs.  I'd also fancy some Tumble, in case a party tries to cut it off while another member rushes to swipe the treasure.  

Perhaps...

Bluff 15, Climb 5, Concentration 12, Intimidate 17, Jump 10, Listen 17, Move Silently 17, Search 8, Sense Motive 17, Spot 17, Tumble 10, Use Magic Device 15, Use Rope 10


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## Cleon (May 18, 2010)

Shade said:


> That's a pretty good list.  Based on the info above, I'd recommend replacing Swim with Use Magic Device.  Probably some Search as well, in case it's treasure is stolen and it needs to track down the thieves.  Also, enough Concentration to snap off its SLAs without drawing AoOs.  I'd also fancy some Tumble, in case a party tries to cut it off while another member rushes to swipe the treasure.
> 
> Perhaps...
> 
> Bluff 15, Climb 5, Concentration 12, Intimidate 17, Jump 10, Listen 17, Move Silently 17, Search 8, Sense Motive 17, Spot 17, Tumble 10, Use Magic Device 15, Use Rope 10




Surely it would need Survival and Track to "track down the thieves" with a skill. 

I'd add some kind of locate object Su power or SLA and redistribute those Search points into Tumble and Jump.

The rest of those skills look OK I guess.


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## Shade (May 19, 2010)

Locate object as 1/day SLA?

Revising...

Bluff 15, Climb 5, Concentration 12, Intimidate 17, Jump 14, Listen 17, Move Silently 17, Sense Motive 17, Spot 17, Tumble 14, Use Magic Device 15, Use Rope 10

How's that?


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## Cleon (May 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Locate object as 1/day SLA?
> 
> Revising...
> 
> ...




The skills look good.

I'd make the locate object more frequent than that, somewhere around 3/day or 5/day, but restrict it to whatever objects it is set to guard.

Something like 4/day - _locate object_ (guarded items only).


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## Shade (May 19, 2010)

Let's stick with 3/day.

Updated.

CR 12?

Advancement: 15 HD (Large); 16–30 HD (Huge), like an efreet, or go higher?


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## Cleon (May 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's stick with 3/day.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> CR 12?




I was thinking 11-12 too. They are pretty nasty. Good in melee and they've got a couple of potent SLAs.

Sure, CR12 is fine.



Shade said:


> Advancement: 15 HD (Large); 16–30 HD (Huge), like an efreet, or go higher?




I'd rather the Large range was a bit wider. How about:

Advancement: 15-19 HD (Large); 20–30 HD (Huge)


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## Number 6 (May 20, 2010)

I'm with Cleon... big effing creature with the potential for getting massively nasty. 


However, I have one reservation about _Locate Object_ as a new SLA for guardian genies.

They are not exactly expected to lose the stuff they were summoned to watch... and considering they are CR 12, they probably ought to either fight to the death, or only run away back to their plane after getting close enough to death that the don't give a damn about any agreements with sha'irs or whoever bound them.

Guardian genies aren't going to let anyone make off with their master's stuff... and if it does happen, that's another contract with their master... and possibly with a different genie (while the guardian stays to guard the rest of the treasure vault, or the exit, or something else).

Just food for thought.


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## Shade (May 20, 2010)

While I'm not quite as confident in the genie's abilities to thwart theft, I'm fine with leaving the recovery up to another tasked genie.


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## Cleon (May 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> While I'm not quite as confident in the genie's abilities to thwart theft, I'm fine with leaving the recovery up to another tasked genie.




Hmm.

I'm OK with dropping _locate object_. As you say, it's a guardian not a recovery expert.

And I do like the idea of a Tracker or Hunter Tasked Genie, which tracks down item or creatures for its master, either leading others to the object of its hunt or bringing them back to its master...

"Dead or Alive I'll bring the thief to you, just tell me which you want."


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## Shade (May 20, 2010)

Updated.

We still need a caster level for SLAs.  12th like an efreet, or slightly higher?


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## Number 6 (May 20, 2010)

We can make the Caster Level a little higher than efreet... perhaps 14th.


Cleon said:


> And I do like the idea of a Tracker or Hunter Tasked Genie, which tracks down item or creatures for its master, either leading others to the object of its hunt or bringing them back to its master...
> 
> "Dead or Alive I'll bring the thief to you, just tell me which you want."



That is a natural job for which someone would summon a genie!  We really ought to do that.


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## Shade (May 21, 2010)

Remind me that we'll need to tackle that new tasked genie once we finish converting the others.

Caster level 14th works.  Updated.


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## Number 6 (May 21, 2010)

Is that all for the guardian?  On to the Herdsman genie next?


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## Shade (May 21, 2010)

*Genie, Tasked, Herdsman *
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Plains
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Family
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Very (11-12)
TREASURE: D for group, P otherwise
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-100
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 21
HIT DICE: 3
THAC0: 18
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6' tall)
MORALE: Steady (11-12)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 175

Capable of running all day with their herds, herdsman tasked genies are dedicated and sociable creatures. They live to provide for their animals, and they take their nourishment from them as well, often in the form of blood drained from small puncture wounds or from their milk.

Herdsman genies are short and wiry, with very quick hands and heavy brows. Their skin is dark and wrinkled from years of exposure to the sun and wind. Their hair is dark as jet and falls in loose curls (though the sun soon bleaches it to a reddishbrown in those who do not wear head coverings). Herdsman genies smell like their animals and often also have a vaguely rancid smell from the overripe milk products they eat.

Combat: Herdsman genies only fight in self-defense or in defense of their herds. A group of them will use short composite bows (30%), spears (40%), and short swords (30%). Some tribes use lassoes when they wish to capture prisoners. In addition, herdsman genies can use each of the following spell-like abilities once per day: phantom steed, dust devil, remove fear, and flame brand. They are excellent riders and can fire missile weapons from horseback at full gallop with no penalty. Their tactics revolve around keeping their opponents away from their herds and the slower members of their groups. If that is unsuccessful they may, in desperation, attempt to stampede the herd into their opponents. (If a group saving throw versus spell fails for the herd, the entire herd stampedes as directed).

Habitat/Society: Herdsman tasked genies are more commonly solitary, though they gather in groups when the size of their herds requires it. Their lives are completely centered around the welfare of their herds, and they are entirely willing to disobey their masters if they are ordered to take a herd into danger or into unfavorable land where the animals are likely to perish.

Herdsman genies take blood from their charges, which must be carefully drained so as not to weaken the animal and must be drunk immediately. They also take the milk and make it into various fermented drinks, cheeses, curds, and yogurts.

Herdsman tasked genies are very fond of races of all kinds, and contests are often held within and among groups of herdsman tasked genies to determine the fastest runner. Some of these races are made more difficult by following the pack of runners with a stampeding herd of bulls, camels, or goats. Camel and horse races are also common, and sports played mounted are often tumultuous all-day affairs with complex rules and scoring systems. Wagering and haggling are also favored activities of the male herdsman tasked genies. Young female herdsman genies take part in foot races, but they prefer roping, branding, shearing, and trick riding contests to mounted team sports.

All groups of herdsman genies are extremely mobile. If they feel threatened, they may stealthily force march their animals an entire night’s travel across the plains with no ill effect on either themselves or their animals. They may do this once a week. This ability requires a cooperating group of genies and cannot be attempted by a lone herdsman.

Some groups of herdsman tasked genies have adopted the religions of Zakhara, and, like all new converts, they are zealous in their faith. These groups will try to convert others they meet, and they don.t mind if they must force the convert to make up his mind.

Ecology: Herdsman tasked genies tend to push out both competing nongenie herdsmen and predators which might threaten their herds. They know when a given area has been grazed to the point of temporary exhaustion and will move on, but they have little regard for the artificial boundaries of sultanates, sheikdoms, and even the fences of farmers. This unwillingness to acknowledge the authority of settled groups often leads them into conflict, although they moderate this tendency if their master specifically admonishes them about it.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix (1992).


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## Number 6 (May 21, 2010)

*Strength* ?
Perhaps *Dexterity* 16
Perhaps *Constitution* 20 as they can "run all day"
*Intelligence* 12
*Wisdom* ?
Perhaps *Charisma* 18 or higher to give a high rating on the Animal Handling and Ride skills

*Alignment:* Neutral

*Armor Class:* 14 (+3 Dex, +0 size, +1 natural)
*Speed:* 40'
*Hit Dice:* 3 (3d8 +15, 28 hit points)
*Base Attack / Grapple:* +3 / +?

*Skills:* Handle Animal, Knowledge (nature), and Ride with max ranks plus Craft (cheesemaking and vintner), Profession (herdsman), 

*Feats:* Endurance (perhaps as a racial bonus), Improved Initiative (bonus), Mounted Archery, Run

*Spell-Like Abilities:* 1/day - Phantom Steed, Unseen Servant (as a possible substitution for Dust Devil), Remove Fear, and whatever we decide to use as a substitute for Flame Brand


Note: There is a reasonable substitute for Dust Devil somewhere in the Sandstorm supplement... I'll poke around in the book this weekend.


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## Cleon (May 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> Remind me that we'll need to tackle that new tasked genie once we finish converting the others.
> 
> Caster level 14th works.  Updated.




Caster level 14th is fine by me!

They look finished, except their throwing axes should be 1d8 not 1d6, assuming they're Large.


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## Cleon (May 23, 2010)

Hmm, I'm thinking we can base these on Jann, perhaps with a slight downgrading of the Jann's abilities since they seem very weak for Genies.



Number 6 said:


> Perhaps *Constitution* 20 as they can "run all day"
> Perhaps *Charisma* 18 or higher to give a high rating on the Animal Handling and Ride skills




Don't care for that, I'd give them Endurance as a bonus feat and a racial bonus on those skills, perhaps we could tie the later to a domestic-animals version of Wild Empathy?


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## Number 6 (May 24, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Hmm, I'm thinking we can base these on Jann, perhaps with a slight downgrading of the Jann's abilities since they seem very weak for Genies.
> 
> ...I'd give them Endurance as a bonus feat and a racial bonus on those skills, perhaps we could tie the later to a domestic-animals version of Wild Empathy?



Why not just lift straight from the Jann:
*Abilities*: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 13

Perhaps making their Intelligence 12 to bring it in line with the original herdsman genies.

Wild Empathy ain't a bad idea, either... but they ought to get some other kind of bonus, otherwise they will get a d20 check plus their Charisma modifier and I think their Hit Dice.  Maybe a +8 racial bonus to Wild Empathy checks?


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## freyar (May 24, 2010)

Jann abilities but probably slightly lower Str.  I'm also with Endurance as a bonus feat.  Possibly Mounted Archery as a bonus, as well.  Definitely "Domestic Empathy" of some type, or maybe speak with animals.


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## Cleon (May 24, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Why not just lift straight from the Jann:
> *Abilities*: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 13
> 
> Perhaps making their Intelligence 12 to bring it in line with the  original herdsman genies.
> ...






freyar said:


> Jann abilities but probably slightly lower Str.  I'm also with Endurance as a bonus feat.  Possibly Mounted Archery as a bonus, as well.  Definitely "Domestic Empathy" of some type, or maybe speak with animals.




How about cutting 2 points off the Intelligence, and shifting 2 points from Strength to Endurance, since these genies seem less muscular but tought & wiry? That'd make them:

*Abilities*: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 13

Regarding the feats, I agree they need Mounted Archery from the description's "can fire missile weapons from horseback at full gallop with no penalty", and Endurance would fit the "Capable of running all day".

We might as well throw in Mounted Combat as well as the Improved Initiative most genies get as a bonus feat.

How many of these feats do we want to be bonus feats? We could make it half-and-half and use of their 2 regular feats:

Feats: Endurance (B), Improved Initiative (B), Mounted Archery, Mounted Combat

However, I'm tempted to make the Mounted feats bonus too - it would seem to fit their purpose - then give them Point Blank Shot and Track as their standard feats. (Track'll be useful for following their charges and finding predators and rustlers, Point Blank Shot'll fit their expertise as archers and lasso/net throwers).

*Feats:* Endurance (B), Improved Initiative (B), Mounted Archery (B), Mounted  Combat (B), Point Blank Shot, Track


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## Cleon (May 24, 2010)

As for the "Domestic Empathy" I've come up with the following...

*Herd Animal Empathy (Ex):* This power works like the druid’s wild empathy class feature, except it only works on domestic herd animals (camels, cattle, elephants, horses, pigs, sheep, et cetera) and their wild relatives. A herdsman genie also has a +4 racial bonus on Animal Handling and Ride checks against such herd animals.

I originally called it "Pastoral Empathy" but was concerned that name was a bit unclear.


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## freyar (May 25, 2010)

I prefer the last suggested feat line (4 bonus feats), and the empathy is looking pretty good.


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## Number 6 (May 25, 2010)

The Attributes fork fine... and the empathy ability too.

I'm a little reluctant to give so many bonus feats... however, I find it hard to eliminate *any* of those feats listed by Cleon.
lol


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## Cleon (May 26, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> The Attributes fork fine... and the empathy ability too.
> 
> I'm a little reluctant to give so many bonus feats... however, I find it hard to eliminate *any* of those feats listed by Cleon.
> lol




Yes, I was having that problem too. The only feats I would feet comfortable with eliminating is the Improved Initiative. That's a standard genie bonus feat though, so we might as well keep it.

That's about it for the SA/SQ isn't it, apart from the substitute for _dust devil_ which #6 said he had something for.

Since we've done the feats, shall we work out the skills?

I'm thinking the following nine skills, all with maximum ranks:

Handle Animal *6*, Heal *6*, Knowledge (nature)  *6*, Listen *6*, Profession (herder) *6*, Ride *6*, Spot *6*, Survival *6*, Use Rope *6*


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## Shade (May 26, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

For skills, it gets 9 at 6 ranks.

Balance, Handle Animal, Jump, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Ride, Spot, Survival, Tumble?

I compiled that list based on the class skills of various mounted prestige classes, alternate classes, and class variants.

We might swap a few ranks here and there to include Hide and Move Silently, since they are apparently stealthy.  Maybe Use Rope as well?


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## freyar (May 26, 2010)

I'd be comfortable with dropping Tumble and perhaps some of Jump and/or Balance to get those other three skills.  How about

Balance 5, Handle Animal 6, Hide 5, Jump 5, Knowledge (nature) 6, Listen 5, Move Silently 5, Ride 6, Spot 5, Survival 6?


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## Number 6 (May 26, 2010)

Possible substitute for the 2nd-edition AD&D Dust Devil spell:

_From the *Sand Storm* supplement..._


> *STORM MOTE*
> Evocation [Air, Earth]
> *Level:* Druid 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
> *Components:* V, S, M/DF
> ...



As I recall, Dust Devil was a 2nd-level spell... and Storm Mote seems a little stronger than what I remember Dust Devil doing.  On the other hand, it doesn't last long and it has a Fortitude save... so it just might work nicely.


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## Shade (May 26, 2010)

When we converted the markeen, Cleon proposed the following replacement for dust devil:

Summon Dust Devil (Sp): Once per day a markeen can summon a Small air elemental to appear in its whirlwind form anywhere with a 50 foot range. This spell-like-ability allows the air elemental to remain in its whirlwind form for 1 round per Hit Dice the markeen possesses. The elemental can not revert to its normal form to make slam attacks, but must remain in its whirlwind form while summoning lasts, moving as the markeen directs it. Summon Dust Devil is the equivalent of a 2nd level spell.

We ended up going with simply summon monster III (air elemental only).

We could go either way here as well.


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## freyar (May 26, 2010)

Well, we could do the Cleon special version here if we like.


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## Number 6 (May 26, 2010)

The Monster Summoning (small air elemental) SLA might have a bit more utility for a herder.


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## Cleon (May 31, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'd be comfortable with dropping Tumble and perhaps some of Jump and/or Balance to get those other three skills.  How about
> 
> Balance 5, Handle Animal 6, Hide 5, Jump 5, Knowledge (nature) 6, Listen 5, Move Silently 5, Ride 6, Spot 5, Survival 6?




I'm not liking the Balance much, and I definitely think they need Use Rope.


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## freyar (May 31, 2010)

Oops, forgot Use Rope.  How about this? 

Handle Animal 6, Hide 5, Jump 5, Knowledge (nature) 6, Listen 5, Move Silently 5, Ride 6, Spot 5, Survival 6, Use Rope 5


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2010)

Updated.

Do we need any racial bonuses?


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## Cleon (Jun 1, 2010)

freyar said:


> Oops, forgot Use Rope.  How about this?
> 
> Handle Animal 6, Hide 5, Jump 5, Knowledge (nature) 6, Listen 5, Move  Silently 5, Ride 6, Spot 5, Survival 6, Use Rope 5




That looks fine to me.



Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Do we need any racial bonuses?




I feel the bonuses from Herd Animal Empathy should be enough.

Speaking of which, maybe we should add a few skills to that list, like a ranger's bonus to Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival for Favoured Enemy.

Maybe...

*Herd Animal Empathy (Ex):* This power works like the druid’s  wild empathy class feature, except it only works on domestic herd  animals (camels, cattle, elephants, horses, pigs, sheep, et cetera) and  their wild relatives. A herdsman genie also has a +4 racial bonus on Animal Handling, Knowledge (nature), Ride, Sense Motive and Survival checks against such herd animals.

I didn't like Listen & Spot from favoured enemy, but felt Knowledge (nature) and Survival would make sense as substitutes.


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2010)

That seems fine to me.


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## Number 6 (Jun 1, 2010)

Perhaps Knowledge (Geography)... presuming they know plenty of grazing lands, rotate around, travel by landmarks, etc.


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2010)

Updated.


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2010)

CR looks to be about 2.


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## Cleon (Jun 2, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Perhaps Knowledge (Geography)... presuming they know plenty of grazing lands, rotate around, travel by landmarks, etc.




Good idea! I'm thinking the description's "checks against such herd animals" isn't quite right now, would "involving" make more sense?

*Herd Animal Empathy (Ex):* This power works like the druid’s wild empathy class feature, except it  only works on domestic herd animals (camels, cattle, elephants, horses,  pigs, sheep, et cetera) and their wild relatives. A herdsman genie also  has a +4 racial bonus on Animal Handling, Knowledge (geography),  Knowledge (nature), Ride, Sense Motive and Survival checks involving such  herd animals.


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## Cleon (Jun 2, 2010)

freyar said:


> CR looks to be about 2.




Agreed.

Advancement 4-9 HD (Medium)?

Having them Advance to Large would make it hard for them to ride regular  herd animals, and the Medium-sized Jann becomes Large when it hits 10 HD, which is more than triple the Herdsman's HD. 

Treasure: Standard

Level Adjustment: +5, same as a Jann?

Finally, I'd like to add spear to their weapons list, since shortswords are not much use from horseback. Besides, it's significantly more effective.

* Attack:* Spear +5 melee (1d8+3/x3) or short sword +5 melee (1d6+2/19–20) or composite longbow +5  ranged (1d8/x3)
* Full Attack:* Spear +5 melee (1d8+3/x3) or short sword +5 melee (1d6+2/19–20) or composite longbow +5  ranged (1d8/x3)


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2010)

Updated.

Did we ever decide on a caster level for SLAs?



> If that is unsuccessful they may, in desperation, attempt to stampede the herd into their opponents. (If a group saving throw versus spell fails for the herd, the entire herd stampedes as directed).




Should we give 'em an "inspire stampede" ability, or just leave that up to the DM for animals with the stampede ability?



> If they feel threatened, they may stealthily force march their animals an entire night’s travel across the plains with no ill effect on either themselves or their animals. They may do this once a week. This ability requires a cooperating group of genies and cannot be attempted by a lone herdsman.




Ditto a special forced march ability?


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2010)

New herd animal empathy is fine, though that's now quite a lot of skill bonuses!

Proposed advancement and standard treasure are good.

Why not just drop the shortsword and go with a spear instead?

edit: missed Shade's post.  Maybe we can fold the stampede into herd animal empathy.  I like the forced march; maybe it can prevent the herd animals from taking damage.  That should probably be a separate ability requiring multiple genies.


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## Cleon (Jun 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Did we ever decide on a caster level for SLAs?




I don't recall us doing so.

Janni have CL 12th on most of their abilities, Herdmen Genies have 3HD less so maybe Caster Level 9th?



Shade said:


> Should we give 'em an "inspire stampede" ability, or just leave that up to the DM for animals with the stampede ability?




I'd think anyone would be able to do that with a good Handle Animal check, given the right circumstances, but I suppose we could add it to the Herd Animal Empathy:

*Herd Animal Empathy (Ex):* This power works like the druid’s wild empathy class feature, except it  only works on domestic herd animals (camels, cattle, elephants, horses,  pigs, sheep, et cetera) and their wild relatives. A herdsman genie also  has a +4 racial bonus on Animal Handling, Knowledge (geography),  Knowledge (nature), Ride, Sense Motive and Survival checks involving  such herd animals.

Furthermore, herdsmen genies can drive herd animals with a Stampede special attack (such as Bison) to stampede over their enemies. This requires a DC25 Handle Animal check.



Shade said:


> Ditto a special forced march ability?




Guess so. Something like:

*Tireless March (Su):* Once a week, a group of at least 3 herdsmen genies can drive a herd of animals on a special forced march of up to 12 hours duration. Both the genies and the herdbeasts automatically succeed at Constitution checks to resist nonlethal damage and fatigue from this forced march.

The original implies they can only march at night, but the above just has a fixed duration. For an "all night" version:

*March All Night (Su):* One night per week a group of at least 3 herdsmen  genies can drive a herd of animals on a special forced march that lasts until the dawn. Both the genies and the herdbeasts automatically  succeed at Constitution checks to resist nonlethal damage and fatigue  from this forced march.


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## freyar (Jun 3, 2010)

Let's just go with Tireless March.  There doesn't seem to be a good reason they have to do it at night; the original implies they just use the darkness for stealth.


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## Number 6 (Jun 3, 2010)

freyar said:


> Let's just go with Tireless March.  There doesn't seem to be a good reason they have to do it at night; the original implies they just use the darkness for stealth.



In the desert, they are much less likely to suffer from the hot environment... and marching during the day might invite trouble from raiders.

Aside from that (although much less important), magical creatures in folklore often do magical things at night... fey, elves, genies, etc.  They make shoes, baked goods, clean the shop, and steal babies.


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## Shade (Jun 3, 2010)

While I understand the flavor reasons, I'd prefer tireless march, as it works better mechanically.  They can still use it at night.  

Updated.


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## freyar (Jun 3, 2010)

Ready for the next one?


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## Shade (Jun 3, 2010)

Probably!

*Genie, Tasked, Slayer *
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: High (13-14)
TREASURE: U
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -2
MOVEMENT: 24, Fl 30 (B)
HIT DICE: 12
THAC0: 9
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-16/2-16 or by weapon type +9
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 15%
SIZE: L (10’ tall)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 11,000

The tasked slayer genie’s only purpose is to commit murder as often as possible--by stealth as long as possible or through berserker rages when discovered. As this sort of behavior tends to be noticed by sentient creatures nearby, slayer genies are usually very discreet about their activities, controlling the rage which motivates them because of their fear of discovery and punishment.

Slayer genies are massive genies with four arms and dark, polished skin and are usually naked to the waist. Two of their hands are human; the other two resemble lion’s paws with ivory claws. Their red eyes sparkle with flame. Above and between their two eyes lies a third eye, which is green and resembles that of a panther. The third eye is centered between two horns. Their hair is coarse as horsetails. On their backs are two massive wings. 

Combat: Slayer genies prefer to kill their targets quietly, and they are extremely well-equipped to do so, either by magical or physical means. They can cast blindness, silence 15’ radius, darkness, improved invisibility, ventriloquism, misdirection, assume gaseous form, polymorph self, and dimension door. If they reveal their true form they can cause fear in creatures of 3 Hit Dice or less.

In melee, they attack either with their terrible claws or with a melee weapon in either normal hand (at no penalty). Their enormous Strength gives them a +9 damage bonus when using melee weapons. Slayer genies prefer scimitars, axes, cleaving polearms, morning stars, and maces. Slayer genies will use missile weapons in unusual circumstances. They suffer no penalty for using such weapons instead of their usual melee weapons.

Habitat/Society: It is believed that slayer genies were first created with the specific function of terrifying the enemies of the genie lords, but that they later began to serve as efficient assassins in noble genies’ power struggles. Given their nature and their origin, it is not surprising that slayer genies are always servants. Those few slayer genies that become free generally have very short reigns of terror. They serve humans, demihumans, and other genies, but their masters always closely monitor their actions. An unwatched slayer genie is extremely dangerous, and may begin slaughtering its master’s followers.

Slayer genies enjoy the company of other warriors, and will spend hours discussing the advantages and disadvantages of various weapons, the fine points of anatomy, and the details of stealth, tactics, martial trickery, and armor with anyone willing to listen. Their fascination with violence and bloodshed goes far beyond the professional level. They have a disturbing fixation with the process for its own sake, and their descriptions of past battles are full of loving details of exactly how a foe looked as he died, how well each of their weapons performed, the quirks of various fighting styles and their appeal, and so on. The joy they have in battle and death extends to their own demise, which they all look forward to as a glorious occasion. Nothing spoils the mood of a slayer genie quite so much as the thought of dying some way other than in combat.

Slayer genies know neither shame nor pride when asked to complete some mission; they merely seek to fulfill their role, and boast about it afterward. No trick is too cruel, no tactic too immoral, no job too unsavory for them to undertake.

Ecology: When tasked genies are driven mad they become tasked slayer genies, genies unable to stay sane after long labor at the same task. They seek release in bloodshed, and they retain only a limited cunning.

Slayer genies view all other creatures as merely sets of abilities and attributes to be overcome, creatures whose only purpose is to meet their death at the hands of the slayer. Hearing a slayer genie inform creatures that they are denying their purpose (that is, not dying at its hands), and thus upsetting it, can be very alarming--refusal to admit that one wants to die by the slayer’s hands just upsets it further. Living creatures rarely survive, much less profit, from meeting a slayer genie. 

The only exception to this general rule are the undead; slayer genies are puzzled at whether or not they should bother to kill things that are already dead. Given a choice, slayer genies always leave undead creatures for last, and if there is any chance of discovery, they leave the undead alone. This often results in undead creatures being blamed and hunted as the perpetrators of slayer genies’ crimes.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix (1992).


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## Shade (Jun 3, 2010)

We can likely work from the guardian's stats.  These have 2 fewer HD, but appear stronger.


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## freyar (Jun 3, 2010)

I need to read through these more carefully, but that sounds reasonable.


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2010)

> NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
> DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-16/2-16 or by weapon type +9






> Slayer genies are massive genies with four arms and dark, polished skin and are usually naked to the waist. Two of their hands are human; the other two resemble lion’s paws with ivory claws.






> In melee, they attack either with their terrible claws or with a melee weapon in either normal hand (at no penalty). Their enormous Strength gives them a +9 damage bonus when using melee weapons. Slayer genies prefer scimitars, axes, cleaving polearms, morning stars, and maces. Slayer genies will use missile weapons in unusual circumstances. They suffer no penalty for using such weapons instead of their usual melee weapons.




It's a bit misleading, but it sounds like they usually fight with weapons in their "human" hands and makes natural attacks with its lion paws.  However, nothing seems to suggest they can't wield weapons at least partially in their pawed hands.

Either way, we should retain the guardian genie's Multiweapon Fighting text (similar to the marilith).

Str works out to be 2 higher than the guardian genie.  Int is the same, so we can probably keep the mental scores the same.  AC is 2 less, but nothing indicates them being less graceful, so I'd prefer to keep Dex the same and just lower natural armor by 2.

So...Str 28, Dex 19, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 15?



> Slayer genies prefer to kill their targets quietly, and they are extremely well-equipped to do so, either by magical or physical means. They can cast blindness, silence 15’ radius, darkness, improved invisibility, ventriloquism, misdirection, assume gaseous form, polymorph self, and dimension door. If they reveal their true form they can cause fear in creatures of 3 Hit Dice or less.




Polymorph self becomes the typical change shape ability of genies.

At will for the other SLAs, or move a few to 3/day?

Frightful presence?


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## freyar (Jun 4, 2010)

It's strange that the Int is so high, given this quote:


> When tasked genies are driven mad they become tasked slayer genies, genies unable to stay sane after long labor at the same task. They seek release in bloodshed, and they retain only a limited cunning.



If we're not comfortable decreasing Int, I'd like to decrease Wis and/or Cha.  Ideally, I'd drop Int to something like 9 and reduce Wis and Cha to the 11-13 range.

What I'd like to do with the fighting is an SA so that they can multiweapon fight with their two hands and also have 2 claw attacks (at no penalty).

Most of the other SLAs can be 3/day probably.  Agreed to frightful presence, though there may be some alternative fear effect someone likes better.


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2010)

Wisdom loss is often tied to insanity in 3e, so I'd be fine with reducing Wis.

I'd like to keep Int where it's at, though, as they are supposed to be quite Knowledgeable, and are smart enough to avoid detection with their kills.

Cha seems decent as well, as it sound like they are both excellent conversationalists and good at intimidation.


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## freyar (Jun 4, 2010)

Ok, then.  Reduce Wis to 7?


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ready for the next one?




Not quite, I think the flavour text of the Herdmen Genie needs a little work.

Firstly, there's an extraneous bit in the tactics entry that we've folded into the Herd Animal Empathy:

Herdsman genies fight only in self-defense or in defense of their herds.  They excel at mounted combat and mounted archery, preferring tactics  that keep their opponents away from their herds and the slower members  of their groups. If that is unsuccessful they may, in desperation,  attempt to stampede the herd into their opponents. (If a group saving  throw versus spell fails for the herd, the entire herd stampedes as  directed).

Secondly, they don't have a weight listed - 150 to 175 pounds?

Thirdly, the description seems awfully long. Could we apply a bit of judicious trimming?

How about this, which is slightly re-arranged and has had about a sixth of the words cut out:Herdsman tasked genies, as their name implies, live to tend herds of animals. Their lives are completely centered around the welfare of their herds, and they are entirely willing to disobey their masters if ordered to take a herd into danger.

Although often solitary, herdsman genies gather in groups when the size of their herds requires it. All groups of herdsman genies are extremely mobile. They know when a given area has been thoroughly grazed and will move on, but have little regard for the artificial boundaries of kingdoms' borders or farmers' fences. This unwillingness to acknowledge settled authority often leads to conflict, they moderate this tendency if their master specifically admonishes them about it.

Herdsman genies tend to push out competing nongenie herdsmen and predators which might threaten their herds. If they feel threatened, they may stealthily force march their animals an entire night’s travel with no ill effect on either themselves or their animals.

Herdsman tasked genies are sociable creatures. They love to race, whether on foot or mounted, and often hold running contests. Some races are made more difficult by stampeding a herd behind the runners. Camel and horse races are also common, as well as mounted sports that can last all day, with complex rules and scoring systems. Males also enjoy wagering and haggling, while young females prefer roping, branding, shearing, and trick riding contests to mounted team sports.

Herdsman genies feed upon the blood of their charges, which is carefully drained so as not to weaken the animal and must be drunk immediately. They also drink milk and make it into various cheeses, curds, yogurts and fermented liquors.

Some groups of herdsman tasked genies adopt the religions of nearby humanoids, and are zealous in their new faith. These groups will try to convert others they meet, and they don't mind forcing the convert to make up his mind.​


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2010)

Goodie! I've been looking forward to these fellows.



Shade said:


> It's a bit misleading, but it sounds like they usually fight with weapons in their "human" hands and makes natural attacks with its lion paws.  However, nothing seems to suggest they can't wield weapons at least partially in their pawed hands.




Just to add to the confusion their illustration shows a slayer genie wielding a weapon with each left arm, one of which (the lower-left arm) looks like the ivory-clawed lion's paw, while its lower-right arm ends in an empty lion's paw. You can't see how its upper-right arm ends in the picture.



Shade said:


> Either way, we should retain the guardian genie's Multiweapon Fighting text (similar to the marilith).
> 
> Str works out to be 2 higher than the guardian genie.  Int is the same, so we can probably keep the mental scores the same.  AC is 2 less, but nothing indicates them being less graceful, so I'd prefer to keep Dex the same and just lower natural armor by 2.
> 
> ...




That all looks good to me.



Shade said:


> At will for the other SLAs, or move a few to 3/day?




I'd go for at-will for them all, none are particularly overpowered for a creature of its likely CR.

Spell-Like Abilities: At-will: blindness/deafness, silence, darkness, greater invisibility, minor image, gaseous form, and dimension door ?



Shade said:


> Frightful presence?




Definitely.

How about reworking the Derro's insanity SQ for them, to represent their madness?


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> Wisdom loss is often tied to insanity in 3e, so I'd be fine with reducing Wis.
> 
> I'd like to keep Int where it's at, though, as they are supposed to be quite Knowledgeable, and are smart enough to avoid detection with their kills.
> 
> Cha seems decent as well, as it sound like they are both excellent conversationalists and good at intimidation.




I'd rather keep the Int high too. The flavour text is contradictory, since there's a lot about how they plot the best way to slay their victims and see all living things as puzzles, the solution to which is murder!


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2010)

Ahh, I missed the at will bit somehow.  Yes, let's keep the SLAs at will.

Madness per the derro goes well with the reduced Wis.  Perhaps using wish or miracle to remove the madness would turn them back into guardians?


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## Cleon (Jun 6, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ahh, I missed the at will bit somehow.  Yes, let's keep the SLAs at will.
> 
> Madness per the derro goes well with the reduced Wis.  Perhaps using wish or miracle to remove the madness would turn them back into guardians?




I agree with the idea of their being a way to "un slayer" these genie in principle but would rather leave it undefined, maybe hint that it involves a quest connected to whatever drove the Slayer mad in the first place.

Oh, and it's not just Guardian Genies, any kind of Tasked Genie can become a Slayer. I remember reading somewhere that Artist Genies are prone to becoming particularly nasty Slayers - maybe they're very "creative" in how they kill?


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## Shade (Jun 7, 2010)

Updated herdsman as Cleon suggested.

Added Slayer to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jun 7, 2010)

Pretty good!  Do they need any more special abilities?


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## Shade (Jun 7, 2010)

Maybe a sneak attack and/or death attack?


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2010)

Ooooh, absolutely yes to both.  Sneak attack as 12HD rogue, whatever that works out to be.  Could maybe also find justification for poison use here: "No trick is too cruel, no tactic too immoral, no job too unsavory for them to undertake."  But it doesn't quite seem their style.

You know, I wonder if "If they reveal their true form they can cause fear in creatures of 3 Hit Dice or less." is more like a fear aura based on a fear or cause fear spell rather than frightful presence.  But it's not a big deal.


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## Cleon (Jun 8, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ooooh, absolutely yes to both.  Sneak attack as 12HD rogue, whatever that works out to be.  Could maybe also find justification for poison use here: "No trick is too cruel, no tactic too immoral, no job too unsavory for them to undertake."  But it doesn't quite seem their style.
> 
> You know, I wonder if "If they reveal their true form they can cause fear in creatures of 3 Hit Dice or less." is more like a fear aura based on a fear or cause fear spell rather than frightful presence.  But it's not a big deal.




I was thinking more an assassin-style death attack than a sneak attack, but we need the latter to qualify for the former.

*Death Attack (Ex):* If a slayer genie studies his opponent for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (genie's choice). While studying the victim, the slayer genie can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the slayer genie or recognize the genie as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 18) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the slayer genie. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the slayer genie has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds. The save DC is Intelligence-based.

If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the slayer genie does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack.

Since slayer genies are all about the slaying, should we keep the paralysis option? I suppose their master could order them to capture someone alive, but I'm not sure they do that!

Non-paralysis version:

*Death Attack (Ex):* If a slayer genie studies an opponent for 3  rounds and then makes a melee sneak attack that  successfully deals damage, the  opponent must succeed at a DC 18 Fortitude save (DC 18) or die. If the victim’s saving  throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. The save DC is Intelligence-based.

The slayer genie can undertake other actions while studying the victim,  so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does  not detect the slayer genie or recognize the genie as an enemy. Once the  slayer genie has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death  attack within the next 3 rounds. If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save), or  if the slayer genie does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of  completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can  attempt another death attack.


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2010)

I'm ok with dropping the paralysis bit.  And I definitely wanted both death attack and sneak attack.


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2010)

Updated.

Caster level 14th (2 higher than HD, like the efreet) for SLAs?

Skills: 10 at 15 ranks
Diplomacy, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival...

Feats: Improved Initiative (B), Multiweapon Fighting (B), 5 more
Combat Reflexes, Deadly Precison (I don't think we've ever used this feat!), Improved Critical (scimitar), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (silence), Track?


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## Number 6 (Jun 9, 2010)

Yeah, let's avoid the paralysis option on the death strike.


And for feats, I think we might want to consider Power Attack and Cleave... and possibly Great Cleave.

Improved Critical (scimitar) and Track are must-haves.  Deadly Precision ain't a bad idea, either... at least on the basis that we haven't yet used it.  If any creature needs it, perhaps this is the one.


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2010)

You'd be substituting Power Attack and Cleave for Combat Reflexes and Quicken SLA?  I'd go back and forth between Power Attack and Combat Reflexes, but I like the Quicken SLA a lot.  Very useful for attacking magic types.  And CL 14 sounds good.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2010)

Cleave and Great Cleave don't seem a good fit, since these guys will usually be tracking down and slaying a single target.   I suppose it could be explained as "mowing down their bodyguards/companions", though.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2010)

I can see that, too, but I definitely like Quicken SLA more than Cleave, and Combat Reflexes seems just as good as Power Attack.

Maybe Climb, Jump, and Tumble for the last skills?


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## Cleon (Jun 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> I can see that, too, but I definitely like Quicken SLA more than Cleave, and Combat Reflexes seems just as good as Power Attack.




Deadly Precision, Combat Reflexes and Quicken SLA all suit me.

What SLA would we apply the Quicken to? A CL of 14 allows for SLAs up to 3rd level, so we've got a choice of _blindness/deafness_, _darkness_, _gaseous form_, _minor image _or _silence_.

_blindness/deafness_ or _gaseous form _seem the most appropriate.



freyar said:


> Maybe Climb, Jump, and Tumble for the last skills?




Sounds good.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2010)

Shade already has silence for Quicken SLA, but blindness/deafness would be another good choice.


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## Shade (Jun 14, 2010)

Updated.

I selected _silence _since it was called out in their original writeup, but I'm fine with blindness/deafness if the rest of you would prefer it.  Silence is probably more of a pre-combat prep ability, whereas it can't use the latter until prey is engaged, so I think I just convinced myself.  

I also swapped Concentration for Jump, as it already had a great Jump modifier due to its high speed and synergy from Tumble.  Plus, it can fly.  

Challenge Rating: 11?

Alignment: Always neutral evil?

Advancement: 13-19 HD (Large); 20–30 HD (Huge)?


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2010)

Concentration is fine.  They just seem like ADD types to me. 

The rest is good.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2010)

Updated.  Anything left besides flavor text?


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## Number 6 (Jun 15, 2010)

Looking quite good.


Say, I just peeked around my list of Al-Qadim monsters and noticed several from City of Delights that are left to do.  Can we do those after the initial Tasked Genies... or some of them, like the Pasari-Niml and maybe that dazzle thing?  I tried converting the Pasari-Niml and wasn't satisfied with the results.

If not, I might solicit some advice in private messages from you folks while we go from Tasked Genies from MC13 to Tasked Genies from the ALQ sourcebooks.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2010)

Sure, we can tackle those.  Remind me once we finish up the genies.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2010)

Updated with flavor text.  Finished?


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2010)

Looks finished.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2010)

Here's the next one...

*Genie, Tasked, Warmonger *
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional (15-16)
TREASURE: B
ALIGNMENT: Lawful evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 7
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10 or by weapon +4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Raise morale
MAGIC RESISTANCE:  Nil
SIZE: M (5’ tall)
MORALE: Fanatical (17-18)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 1,400

Warmonger genies are strategists and advisers to generals, laying plans for warfare among the genies’ emirs and caliphs. They are always found leading soldiers and mercenaries, and where there is no war for them to fight, they start one. 

A hairy genie with blood dripping from every hair, warmonger tasked genies tend to obesity. They are shorter than most other genies, a fact which causes them no end of anger and frustration. The typical warmonger genie stands 5. tall and weighs over 200 pounds.

For battle, warmonger genies wear the heaviest armor they can find and are generally found at the rear of their troops, observing from horseback or seated on a ridge overlooking the field. They are very fond of wearing sashes, medals, clusters of jewels or precious metal signifying military ranks and orders, as well as other accessories that attest to their bravery and skill.

Combat: Warmonger genies are capable warriors but excel at leadership. Their leadership is both so inspired and so terrifying that troops under their command gain a +2 bonus to their morale as long as their leader lives. If a tasked warmonger genie is slain in the heat of battle, all troops aware of his death suffer an additional -2 penalty to morale. In melee, warmonger genies prefer weapons for mounted use: maces, picks, and scimitars.  Their great strength gives them a + 4 bonus to weapon damage.

Warmonger genies can use each of the following spell-like abilities twice per day: cloak of bravery, suggestion, and enchanted weapon. They may use fear and remove fear at will.

Habitat/Society: Warmonger genies live among their troops and worship their lords. They are completely loyal to their cause and will carry on with battle even if their lord requests they stop. They will, however, retreat when it is to their advantage, to renew the battle on more favorable terms. 

Generally, warmonger genies are summoned or hired to perform a specific task, such as defending a vital pass from imminent invasion or leading forces in a bid for conquest. They are so enthralled with their work, however, that they often refuse to stop at the limits that their leaders set. As long as a continued advance doesn’t overextend supply lines, push exhausted troops beyond their endurance, or otherwise appear to be militarily foolish, the genies will urge their lords to continue the fight.  Their reasoning is simple: fighting now will prevent fighting later. They are also canny enough to play on their lord’s vanity. They will always assure him that bringing more land under his rule will serve the interests of others as well because of his enlightened and wise policies.

In their hearts, warmonger genies see political figures as foolish and incapable of understanding the glories of soldiering. Many warmonger genies fancy themselves as profound philosophers; appealing to this conceit often brings respect from the genie.

Ecology: Warmonger genies have no ecology. They destroy ecologies they encounter because they must requisition food and supplies from territories they march through, and they must allow their troops a certain amount of plunder for morale purposes. Repeated marching over the same territory during an extended campaign often results in the complete destruction or removal of any mounts, grain, livestock, water supplies, and other foodstuffs that the genie’s army can lay its hands on. Noncombatants starve in their wake.

In addition to their purely strategic and tactical skills, they are administratively and politically skilled enough to understand how to create a climate of fear and suspicion conducive to turning entire nations into armed camps. They will ruthlessly carry out plans to bring all the reins of power under military control and then make every citizen of their nation as efficient as possible in contributing to the war effort.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix (1992).


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2010)

Well, the auras sound kind of bardic but are probably best analogous to the marshall (which I don't have).  Besides the good Int, they should probably also have quite good Cha, Str, and Con.  Maybe racial bonuses on appropriate Knowledge skills, along with maybe Diplomacy (for persuading their employers).


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## Number 6 (Jun 15, 2010)

Certainly, bardic inspiration works well as Freyar suggested... and  instead of a minimum number of ranks in Perform, the Warmonger would need a minimum number of ranks in Knowledge (tactics).

Their tactical genius could be an Extraordinary ability that allows for a simple morale bonus to attacks or Armor Class or even damage bonus, and perhaps they also have a way of increasing their already normal tactical advantage with their magical nature.

Perhaps they also have additional inspirational abilities... Mongoose Publishing allowed their Noble class to get a +4 Aid Another bonus for combat instead of a +2 bonus.  That might work.

Freyar mentioned the Marshal class from the Miniatures Handbook:


> *Auras (Ex):* The marshal exerts an effect on allies in his vicinity. He can learn to produce different effects, or auras, over the course of his career. The marshal may project one minor aura and (starting at 2nd level) one major aura at a time.
> 
> Projecting an aura is a swift action (see Chapter 2: Magic). The aura remains in effect until the marshal uses a free action to dismiss it or activates another aura of the same kind (major or minor). A marshal can have an aura active continually; thus, an aura can be in effect at the start of a combat encounter even before the marshal takes his first turn.
> 
> ...



With that in mind, I wonder if the Marshal class shouldn't simply be their Favored Class.  Not that it isn't good... it's a very good ability, but perhaps we use an alternative.

Surely these guys are not simply encountered on their own.  Shouldn't they have Leadership... and a cohort?

I wouldn't mind seeing them as having very high Intelligence and Wisdom modifiers (+5s or +6s) and merely a Strength that looks good and not amazing (+4 modifier).


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2010)

Leadership isn't necessary for monsters, but we can definitely give them underlings in their Organization line!

We should probably steer clear of the marshal class, except as an underbar, since it is closed content.

Besides the bardic inspirations, we can probably work from spells such as heroism, greater heroism, and heroes' feast for inspiration.


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## Cleon (Jun 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated with flavor text.  Finished?




Some of its damages are screwy - claw +20 (1d10+8) should be 1d10+9, plus the throwing axes' 1d8+8 and the full attack scimitar's 2d6+8 should both be 1d8+9.

*Attack:* Scimitar +20 (1d8+9/15-20) or claw +20 (1d10+9); or throwing axe  +15 ranged (1d8+9)
*Full Attack:* Scimitar +20/+15/+10 (1d8+9/15-20) and scimitar +20  (1d8+4/15-20); or 2 claws +20 (1d10+9) and 2 slams +20 (1d8+4); or 4  throwing axes +15 ranged (1d8+9)

Oh, and its Space/Reach should be 10 ft./10 ft. (I've got the nasty suspicion the Guardian Genie has the wrong 10/5 Space/Reach too).

Apart from that I'm OK with it. I did wonder about adding secondary claw attacks to its dual scimitars, but that might be overkill...

*Attack:* Scimitar +20 (1d8+9/15-20) or claw +20 (1d10+9); or  throwing axe  +15 ranged (1d8+9)
*Full Attack:* Scimitar +20/+15/+10 (1d8+9/15-20) and scimitar +20  (1d8+4/15-20) and 2 claws +20 (1d10+4); or 2 claws +20 (1d10+9) and 2 slams +20 (1d8+4); or 4  throwing axes +15 ranged (1d8+9)

...Then again overkill is what slayer genies are all about.


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## Cleon (Jun 16, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Certainly, bardic inspiration works well as Freyar suggested... and  instead of a minimum number of ranks in Perform, the Warmonger would need a minimum number of ranks in Knowledge (tactics).
> 
> Their tactical genius could be an Extraordinary ability that allows for a simple morale bonus to attacks or Armor Class or even damage bonus, and perhaps they also have a way of increasing their already normal tactical advantage with their magical nature.
> 
> ...




I'd rather just give them an Extraordinary "Inspire Troops" SA that afects all their minions/allies/followers within a certain distance. Maybe with a HD limit. Probably gives a morale bonus to attacks, damage and Will saves (or just saves vs fear effect?).


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2010)

Fixed Slayer Genie, with suggested extra overkill.


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## Number 6 (Jun 16, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I'd rather just give them an Extraordinary "Inspire Troops" SA that afects all their minions/allies/followers within a certain distance. Maybe with a HD limit. Probably gives a morale bonus to attacks, damage and Will saves (or just saves vs fear effect?).



Perhaps that distance could instead be measured by troops under his command... or simply Line Of Sight.  Like you say, use a HD limit on it.

Maybe an Extraordinary standard +1 to Attacks, damage, and Will saves against fear effects... with a once/day or twice/day Supernatural ability to increase that to +2 or +3.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2010)

Let's back up a step and work on the basics.

We know Int is 15-16.  The Str bonus directly translates to 18-19. They have the same HD as a djinn, which has Str 18, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 15.  How about taking a djinn's scores, lowering Dex, boosting Con and the mental scores?   

Perhaps Str 18, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 17?


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## Number 6 (Jun 16, 2010)

I'd even suggest a Wisdom of 18.  These folks are strong-willed, determined, reasonable, wise, and all that.  The Charisma could well be at 20, as a battle-experienced and combat-tested genie... like an officer or even commander.


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's back up a step and work on the basics.
> 
> We know Int is 15-16.  The Str bonus directly translates to 18-19. They have the same HD as a djinn, which has Str 18, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 15.  How about taking a djinn's scores, lowering Dex, boosting Con and the mental scores?
> 
> Perhaps Str 18, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 17?




I'd make the Charisma a notch higher, since they ought to be great leaders. The Dexterity seems too low for a genie who are pretty nimble creatures. How about Dex 15 like a Janni? Since they favour heavy armour they aren't likely to get the full AC bonus from their Dex, but it's the principle of the thing.

*Warmonger:* Str 18, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 19 ?

EDIT: I'd also considered cutting the Int to 15, but I suspect we'll need the extra skill points.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2010)

I'm in agreement on the increased Cha and Wis, but I'd like to keep the Dex low as they are often obese.


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## freyar (Jun 18, 2010)

So 19 or 21 on the Wis and Cha both?


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## Shade (Jun 18, 2010)

I'm fine with either value on both mental stats.


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## Cleon (Jun 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm in agreement on the increased Cha and Wis, but I'd like to keep the Dex low as they are often obese.




Well I don't mind cutting the Dex, with their taste for heavy armour it is unlikely to affect their AC anyway, and boosting their Charisma is OK by me.

However, I'm not seeing much justification for increasing their Wisdom and further than it already is.

*Warmonger:* Str 18, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 19 ?


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## freyar (Jun 21, 2010)

Ok, then, let's go with that.


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## Shade (Jun 21, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

Suggested heavy armor to wear?

I gave 'em a pick, since it was on their list of favored weapons and we hadn't used it yet with tasked genies.

We'll need a replacement for the cloak of bravery SLA.   Heroism?

Should magic weapon be greater magic weapon instead?

I guessed they were bred from efreet stock, since their origins weren't given.  If you'd prefer, we can make 'em Native outsiders instead.


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## freyar (Jun 21, 2010)

Want to give them full-plate?  

I don't know what cloak of bravery was, but heroism sounds pretty good for these.

Definitely greater magic weapon.

You mean with the evil and lawful subtypes?  Having them bred from efreet makes sense to me.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2010)

Sure, full plate works for me.

Updated.

Suggested natural armor bonus?   Efreet have +6, djinn have +3 (and are the same HD as the warmonger).

Suggested caster level for SLAs?  Efreet are CL 12th (djinn are odd with CL 20th).  Perhaps CL 10th?


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2010)

How about +4 natural.  They're not as tough as efreet, but they are warlike.

CL 10 works for me.


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## Cleon (Jun 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Suggested heavy armor to wear?
> 
> ...




That all sounds reasonable to me.



Shade said:


> I guessed they were bred from efreet stock, since their origins weren't given.  If you'd prefer, we can make 'em Native outsiders instead.




I'd rather keep their origins unstated.


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## Cleon (Jun 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sure, full plate works for me.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> ...




I was thinking NA +5, as the original had AC4 and we've given them a +1 Dex bonus.

As for the CL, I was leaning more towards 12 live an efreet, but I'll go along with 10 if you prefer.

Oh, and the Warmonger Genie in the MC12 illustration certainly isn't wearing full plate, it looks more like Splint or Banded to me. Maybe we should change the armour to Banded Mail?


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I'd rather keep their origins unstated.




That's perfectly fine.  I just wanted to know for "behind the scenes" reasons when determining home plane, etc.

Updated.

Time to tackle their "inspire the troops" ability?


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2010)

I'd probably prefer plate, since it says they "wear the heaviest armor they can find."  Surely there's some full plate out in the planes somewhere. 

Ok, here's the key text:


> Warmonger genies are capable warriors but excel at leadership. Their leadership is both so inspired and so terrifying that troops under their command gain a +2 bonus to their morale as long as their leader lives. If a tasked warmonger genie is slain in the heat of battle, all troops aware of his death suffer an additional -2 penalty to morale.




We could make it like bardic inspire courage +2, except line of sight instead of "line of hearing" (and with the penalty on the genie's death).


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> That's perfectly fine.  I just wanted to know for "behind the scenes" reasons when determining home plane, etc.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Time to tackle their "inspire the troops" ability?




Hold on, Warmongers are Medium, not Large. They shouldn't have a size penalty to AC or attack, which would make them:

Medium Outsider (Extraplanar, Evil, Lawful)
Armor Class: 23 (+1 Dex, +4 natural, +8 full plate armor),  touch 11, flat-footed 22
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+11
Attack: Heavy pick +11 melee (1d6+6/x4) or slam +11 melee (1d6+4)
Full Attack: Heavy pick +11/+6 melee (1d6+6/x4) or 2 slams +11 melee  (1d6+4)

EDIT: Oh yes, and I guess I'll go along with efreet as a "behind the scenes" origin.


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> We could make it like bardic inspire courage +2, except line of sight instead of "line of hearing" (and with the penalty on the genie's death).




So something like the following?

*Inspire Troops (Ex):* A warmonger genie can use displays of military prowess to inspire courage in its allies and followers, bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to see the warmonger genie, and the warmonger must have X or more Hit Dice than the ally. The effect lasts for as long as the ally can see the warmonger genie and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +2 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +2 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. Should the ally see the warmonger genie be defeated or slain the morale bonus from Inspire Troops changes into a -2 morale penalty that lasts for 10 rounds. Inspire troops is a mind-affecting ability.


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## Number 6 (Jun 23, 2010)

Cleon's Inspire Troops ability looks nice.


freyar said:


> I'd probably prefer plate, since it says they "wear the heaviest armor they can find."  Surely there's some full plate out in the planes somewhere.



Unfortunately, sometimes the artistic renderings get it wrong for various reasons... but in this case, I believe the illustration uses splint mail because heavy armors don't get used in Zakhara.

With that said, I bet genies are not going to have trouble dealing with the heat.

I'm all in favor of Warmonger donning plate on the battlefield... even ornate dress plate with badges, medals, and sashes.  The only point worth mentioning is who is going to make it?  None of the craftsmen and armorers of Zakhara make the stuff... but perhaps genie armorers bang out sets of plate mail armor.  That's reasonable.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Cleon's Inspire Troops ability looks nice.




Agreed.  



Number 6 said:


> Unfortunately, sometimes the artistic renderings get it wrong for various reasons... but in this case, I believe the illustration uses splint mail because heavy armors don't get used in Zakhara.




Agreed.  The art is always the least reliable source of information.  



Number 6 said:


> With that said, I bet genies are not going to have trouble dealing with the heat.




True.  I wouldn't be opposed to granting them resistance to fire, considering the "behind the scenes" efreet origins.



Number 6 said:


> I'm all in favor of Warmonger donning plate on the battlefield... even ornate dress plate with badges, medals, and sashes.  The only point worth mentioning is who is going to make it?  None of the craftsmen and armorers of Zakhara make the stuff... but perhaps genie armorers bang out sets of plate mail armor.  That's reasonable.




Genie, Tasked, Armorsmith?


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## Number 6 (Jun 23, 2010)

When I first saw your last line I misread it as "Tasked Genie Aerosmith".
Talk about some old genies. 


Shade said:


> I wouldn't be opposed to granting them resistance to fire, considering the "behind the scenes" efreet origins.



When I said heat I meant weather, not heat damage. 

I'm not quite willing to give them extra benefits that are not listed.  At least not resistance to fire and heat... not yet anyway.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2010)

The Aerosmith tasked genie would have odd tasks:  "Walk this Way", "Dream On", "Love in an Elevator"...


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## Cleon (Jun 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> Agreed.  The art is always the least reliable source of information.




I don't mind it having full plate, I was just playing devil's advocate.



Shade said:


> True.  I wouldn't be opposed to granting them resistance to fire, considering the "behind the scenes" efreet origins




I'd rather not, since the original doesn't have it.


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## Number 6 (Jun 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> The Aerosmith tasked genie would have odd tasks:  "Walk this Way", "Dream On", "Love in an Elevator"...



Not to mention the "*Dude Shoots Like a Janni (Ex)*" ability.


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## freyar (Jun 24, 2010)

Back on task!  *whip*  

I'm not positive there needs to be an HD limit for Inspire Troops, but I could see saying that the genie needs "at least 2 more HD than the ally."  As worded now, I think it could be slightly confusing if someone wasn't paying careful attention.


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## Number 6 (Jun 25, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'm not positive there needs to be an HD limit for Inspire Troops, but I could see saying that the genie needs "at least 2 more HD than the ally."  As worded now, I think it could be slightly confusing if someone wasn't paying careful attention.



A limit on the ability will help quantify the value of the ability, and the genie.

If not a limit on the total number of Hit Dice, we're going to need to draw a line somewhere... a specific number of soldiers perhaps, maybe 50 or 100.

Using HD totals seems logical and reasonable since a few spells are limited in this fashion to avoid making them too  powerful.  _Sleep_ and _Charm Monster (Mass)_ to name two.


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2010)

Yeah, a total HD cap is fairly reasonable, but I don't think that's what the current ability says.  I think the current ability says that allies inspired must be X levels lower than the genie (have X fewer HD).


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## Cleon (Jun 27, 2010)

I'd rather use the "at least X more HD than the ally." Warmongers should be able to lead entire armies, and if we give this ability a total HD cap they might have trouble inspiring more than a platoon.

Haven't decided yet how much fewer HD the ally should have. I was originally wondering about +4, but that was just because I thought Warmongers had 10 hit dice (I was getting my Tasked Genies mixed up).

+2 is OK but it seemed a little high to me. I preferred +3, which is enough for the Warmonger to inspire 4th level heroes and stock Ogres.

However, I'm not that bothered about it, even +1 would do in a pinch.

Revising...

*Inspire Troops (Ex):* A warmonger genie can use displays of  military prowess to inspire courage in its allies and followers,  bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be  affected, an ally must be able to see the warmonger genie, and the  warmonger must have at least X more HD than the ally. The effect lasts  for as long as the ally can see the warmonger genie and for 5 rounds  thereafter. An affected ally receives a +2 morale bonus on saving throws  against charm and fear effects and a +2 morale bonus on attack and  weapon damage rolls. Should the ally see the warmonger genie be defeated  or slain the morale bonus from Inspire Troops changes into a -2 morale  penalty that lasts for 10 rounds. Inspire troops is a mind-affecting  ability.


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## Number 6 (Jun 28, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I'd rather use the "at least X more HD than the ally." Warmongers should be able to lead entire armies, and if we give this ability a total HD cap they might have trouble inspiring more than a platoon.



I'm not so sure that's the case... give an HD limit of 100 Hit Dice and you've got 100 soldiers.

Allow it three times daily, and you've got 300 soldiers.

Make it 200 HD if you want.


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2010)

The HD limit does seem thematically appropriate, as a "lower-level" sergeant could still inspire a fantasticly-skilled (read: "higher level") warrior under his command.


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## Cleon (Jun 29, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> I'm not so sure that's the case... give an HD limit of 100 Hit Dice and you've got 100 soldiers.




My problem with a HD cap limit is that it could be commanding a hundred 1-HD Kobolds or ten 10-HD giants, which are hardly an equivalent encounter. One's a rabble, the other's a town destroying juggernaut.

Hence, I'd prefer it with an individual HD limit around the same CR as the follower-types you get with Leadership.

Maybe have a level- or CR-limit and a total HD cap, i.e. X HD of creatures up to CR Y or level Y.

Maybe 100 HD plus 10 HD per level of the Warmonger, with creatures up to CR3 or level 4?



Number 6 said:


> Allow it three times daily, and you've got 300 soldiers.
> 
> Make it 200 HD if you want.




I don't fancy having stackable X/day uses like that. I'd think the ability would be at-will.


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## Number 6 (Jun 29, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I don't fancy having stackable X/day uses like that. I'd think the ability would be at-will.



There's no reason to think it _would_ be stackable.  Most of those buffing abilities are not.  You'd grant it to one set of 100 soldiers for the first use, and a completely different group of soldiers for the subsequent uses.

If it is At Will, there is effectively no limit to the number of creatures it can buff... which might shift game balance a bit.


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2010)

Look at it this way:  The benefit is essentially heroism, which is a 3rd-level spell that only affects a single ally.  Since this is effectively "mass heroism", it's probably the equivalent of a 6th-level or higher spell.  That's probably way too much for a creature of this power level to use at will.

I'd recommend either limiting it to 3/day (non-stacking), or making it require a standard action each round for the genie to maintain (barking orders, waving flags, and whatnot).   I kinda like the latter, as it makes him even more of target, and explains why it ends if he is taking down.


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## Number 6 (Jul 1, 2010)

That second option is a good idea.  What do we do to determine how many targets and what type of targets get affected?


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## Cleon (Jul 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Look at it this way:  The benefit is essentially heroism, which is a 3rd-level spell that only affects a single ally.  Since this is effectively "mass heroism", it's probably the equivalent of a 6th-level or higher spell.  That's probably way too much for a creature of this power level to use at will.




I was using _prayer_ as a comparison, with affects a 40' radius and gives a +1 to allies and a -1 to enemies, which is roughly equal to a +2 to one or t'other.



Shade said:


> I'd recommend either limiting it to 3/day (non-stacking), or making it require a standard action each round for the genie to maintain (barking orders, waving flags, and whatnot).   I kinda like the latter, as it makes him even more of target, and explains why it ends if he is taking down.




I was thinking more a Move action, so it can "inspire by example" by making an attack or casting a spell.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2010)

I'm OK with a move action.


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## Cleon (Jul 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm OK with a move action.




Good!

So what about the Hit Dice limits?


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## freyar (Jul 4, 2010)

Tricky question.  We could do something ridiculously complicated like turning damage --- it seems that might be the only way to satisfy everyone.  

But how about no ally of HD/CR greater than the genie and a large max cap on total HD?


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## Number 6 (Jul 6, 2010)

That's a simple solution... it should work.

The standard Warmonger would be able to inspire combatants on his side up to 7 HD and with a total pool of _X_ Hit Dice.

Perhaps _X_ = 150 + (Warmonger's HD x 10) Hit Dice.

_*Correction (July 20):*_ 
Freyar's got it right... for some reason I've got 150 in there.


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2010)

Like so?

Inspire Troops (Ex): As a move action, a warmonger genie can use displays of military prowess to inspire courage in its allies and followers, bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. The effect lasts for as long as the ally can see the warmonger genie and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +2 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +2 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. Should the ally see the warmonger genie be defeated or slain, the morale bonus from this ability changes into a -2 morale penalty that lasts for 10 rounds. Inspire troops is a mind-affecting ability. 

A warmonger genie can inspire allies of up to 7 HD.  It can inspire a number of allies totalling 10 times its Hit Dice (150 HD for a standard warmonger genie).


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## Number 6 (Jul 6, 2010)

Unless folks prefer a different number of total Hit Dice or a different calculation.

Do we dare opt for the allies to either _see or hear_ the Warmonger to get the inspire allies bonus?  There might very well be occasions when you're dealing with soldiers who have either Darkvision or Blindfighting or a similar advantage.


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2010)

Sure, as long as we don't require both.  Otherwise, silence and countersong could prove problematic.


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## Number 6 (Jul 7, 2010)

Yes... certainly *or* instead of *and*.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2010)

Does this look good?

Inspire Troops (Ex): As a move action, a warmonger genie can use displays of military prowess to inspire courage in its allies and followers, bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. The effect lasts for as long as the ally can see or hear the warmonger genie and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +2 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +2 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. Should the ally see the warmonger genie be defeated or slain, the morale bonus from this ability changes into a -2 morale penalty that lasts for 10 rounds. Inspire troops is a mind-affecting ability. 

A warmonger genie can inspire allies of up to 7 HD. It can inspire a number of allies totalling 10 times its Hit Dice (150 HD for a standard warmonger genie).


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## Number 6 (Jul 7, 2010)

I like the look of that ability, pally.


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2010)

Updated.



> For battle, warmonger genies wear the heaviest armor they can find and are generally found at the rear of their troops, observing from horseback or seated on a ridge overlooking the field.






> They are also canny enough to play on their lord’s vanity. They will always assure him that bringing more land under his rule will serve the interests of others as well because of his enlightened and wise policies.






> In their hearts, warmonger genies see political figures as foolish and incapable of understanding the glories of soldiering. Many warmonger genies fancy themselves as profound philosophers; appealing to this conceit often brings respect from the genie.






> In addition to their purely strategic and tactical skills, they are administratively and politically skilled enough to understand how to create a climate of fear and suspicion conducive to turning entire nations into armed camps. They will ruthlessly carry out plans to bring all the reins of power under military control and then make every citizen of their nation as efficient as possible in contributing to the war effort.




Skills: 11 at 10 ranks (-6 armor check penalty)
Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Listen, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Profession (siege engineer), Ride, Sense Motive, Spot?

Feats: Improved Initiative (B), 3 more
Mounted Combat seems a no-brainer.  What else?  Remember, Leadership is not really a feat intended for monsters.


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## Number 6 (Jul 8, 2010)

Is Knowledge (tactics) only a d20 Modern skill?


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2010)

Yep.  I'm afraid so.


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## Number 6 (Jul 8, 2010)

Hmmm... feats.

~ Alertness, Iron Will, Quick Draw
~ Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip
~ Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge
~ Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Shield Bash

Any of those appeal?


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2010)

Definitely Mounted Combat, and any of the following you listed:  Cleave, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Power Attack, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge


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## Number 6 (Jul 8, 2010)

We might want to add in the flavor text that Warmongers who do not ride out on the field of battle on a mount may alternatively select feats from a common list.

Otherwise, their feats should be Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, and Spirited Charge.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2010)

Sounds good.  Updated.

Organization: Solitary or x

Challenge Rating: 5?  They are about on par with djinn.

Advancement: 8–9 HD (Medium); 10–21 HD (Large)?  
This follows the janni progression.

Warmonger genies speak Common, Ignan, and Infernal?


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## Number 6 (Jul 9, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.  Updated.



*Organization:
*They should never be encountered as Solitary creatures... they should only be encountered with at least a squad, if not a company.

*Challenge Rating:
*Looks fine.

*Advancement:
*That looks good, too.

*Languages:
*We might want to add in the flavor text that Zakharan Warmongers speak Jannti... at least I would expect that they often work in conjunction with Jann armies.  I just can't see a sha'ir wanting to summon a genie general and not take advantage of the huge (potential) wealth of military might that is in the High Desert and the Haunted Lands.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2010)

I could see encountering them with a very small entourage when encountered in a city meeting with their lords or other nobles.

Jann don't have their own language:

"Jann speak Common, one elemental language (Aquan, Auran, Ignan, or Terran) and one alignment language (Abyssal, Celestial, or Infernal)."


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## Number 6 (Jul 9, 2010)

Shade said:


> Jann don't have their own language:
> 
> "Jann speak Common, one elemental language (Aquan, Auran, Ignan, or Terran) and one alignment language (Abyssal, Celestial, or Infernal)."



That's why I mentioned the specific Al-Qadim campaign... they speak Jannti the Al-Qadim campaign.


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2010)

Oh, let's just add all these languages.


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## Cleon (Jul 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Does this look good?
> 
> Inspire Troops (Ex): As a move action, a warmonger genie can use displays of military prowess to inspire courage in its allies and followers, bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. The effect lasts for as long as the ally can see or hear the warmonger genie and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +2 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +2 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. Should the ally see the warmonger genie be defeated or slain, the morale bonus from this ability changes into a -2 morale penalty that lasts for 10 rounds. Inspire troops is a mind-affecting ability.
> 
> A warmonger genie can inspire allies of up to 7 HD. It can inspire a number of allies totalling 10 times its Hit Dice (150 HD for a standard warmonger genie).




Well I would have gone for HD less than the warmonger, but I'm OK with up to the warmonger's HD. It allows for an "equal comrades in arms" scenario.

Warmongers have 7 HD, not 15 so 10 times its Hit Dice would be 70.

Somewhere around 20-30 times its HD would suit me.

I like 25, so a standard Warmonger can have 175 HD of followers.


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## Cleon (Jul 10, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> *Organization:
> *They should never be encountered as Solitary creatures... they should only be encountered with at least a squad, if not a company.




The "Organization: Solitary" and "No. Appearing: 1" in their Al-Qadim Appendix entry would appear to disagree with you.

That said, I would like to include a company-level organization in their entry, maybe something like:

Organization: Solitary, squad (1 plus 5-20 humanoid troops) or company (1 plus 20-160 humanoid troops)


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## Cleon (Jul 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Skills: 11 at 10 ranks (-6 armor check penalty)
> Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Listen, Knowledge  (history), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Profession (siege  engineer), Ride, Sense Motive, Spot?







Number 6 said:


> Otherwise, their feats should be Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, and Spirited Charge.




Those skills and feats are fine by me!


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## Number 6 (Jul 10, 2010)

Cleon said:


> The "Organization: Solitary" and "No. Appearing: 1" in their Al-Qadim Appendix entry would appear to disagree with you.



It certainly does disagree with me.  By it's role as a tasked genie (specifically developed as a leader of armies) players should never encounter the Warmonger as a single opponent.


Cleon said:


> That said, I would like to include a company-level organization in their entry, maybe something like:
> 
> Organization: Solitary, squad (1 plus 5-20 humanoid troops) or company (1 plus 20-160 humanoid troops)



Your "1 plus..." idea is in fact perfect.


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## freyar (Jul 11, 2010)

That all sounds pretty good.


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## Shade (Jul 12, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> That's why I mentioned the specific Al-Qadim campaign... they speak Jannti the Al-Qadim campaign.




We can put that in an underbar, then.

I'll agree with the rest, with one small quibble:  If we state "humanoid troops", that seems to indicate they won't lead jann (outsiders), other genies (outsiders), or ogres (giants).   How about we remove the "humanoid", and note in the flavor text the type of troops they may lead?


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## Number 6 (Jul 12, 2010)

Sure... take out the humanoid reference, and in the flavor text note that they may lead Giants, Humanoids, Monstrous Humanoids, and Outsiders.

Would Warmongers be able to lead Constructs such as golems or copper automatons?  Fey?  Perhaps Magical Beasts as auxiliary troops?


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## freyar (Jul 12, 2010)

Hmm, should we specify allies not be mindless?


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## Number 6 (Jul 13, 2010)

freyar said:


> Hmm, should we specify allies not be mindless?



I second that motion.


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## Cleon (Jul 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> We can put that in an underbar, then.
> 
> I'll agree with the rest, with one small quibble:  If we state "humanoid troops", that seems to indicate they won't lead jann (outsiders), other genies (outsiders), or ogres (giants).   How about we remove the "humanoid", and note in the flavor text the type of troops they may lead?




Feel free to take out the humanoid.


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> Hmm, should we specify allies not be mindless?



Oh, never mind, Shade already has it as a mind-affecting ability (of course!).


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## Number 6 (Jul 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Advancement: 8–9 HD (Medium); 10–21 HD (Large)?
> This follows the janni progression.



Using that Advancement progression we'll need to edit the Warmonger's current size from Large to Medium.

As Cleon pointed out earlier, Warmongers are 5'... though, having them _that _short sounds ridiculous.  It is as if the designers merely wanted to make a Genie Napoleon.  That and the blood-drenched part screams of snarkiness.


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## Number 6 (Jul 17, 2010)

With an Intelligence modifier of +3, we should add another language... Giant or Terran?


Flavor text suggestions.  Obviously, there's more to add, but this is what I'm starting with.

*Description:
*This portly and hairy genie stands with a commanding presence, wearing battle-worn armor adorned by medals.  Blood seeps from every pour and drips from its hair.

Warmonger genies serve as military advisers to generals, emirs, and sultans.  They are more familiar serving directly on the battlefield leading mercenaries and soldiers.  When there is no war to lead, they find one or start one.

Often a warmonger takes his position on horseback at the rear of his troops or seated in a general's tent on a ridge overlooking the field of battle.  Alternatively, the warmonger wades into the battle bellowing commands and threats to rally his forces.

Whenever available warmongers wear the heaviest armor.  They also wear military dress and are fond of including sashes, medals, and the finery that goes along with rank.

A typical warmonger genie stands 5 feet tall and weighs over 200 pounds.

Warmonger genies speak Common, Ignan, Infernal, and x.


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## Cleon (Jul 17, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Using that Advancement progression we'll need to  edit the Warmonger's current size from Large to Medium.
> 
> As Cleon pointed out earlier, Warmongers are 5'... though, having them _that  _short sounds ridiculous.  It is as if the designers merely wanted  to make a Genie Napoleon.  That and the blood-drenched part screams of  snarkiness.




I've already said they should be Medium. Like the idea of a Genie Napoleon though... but what'll play the role of the Genie Josephine?



Number 6 said:


> With an Intelligence modifier of +3, we should add another language... Giant or Terran?
> 
> Flavor text suggestions.  Obviously, there's more to add, but this is what I'm starting with.
> 
> ...




Hmm... methinks the phrasing could do with a bit of polish.

As for the languages, I would rather they have more language(s) suitable to command mortal troops. Maybe Giant and Goblin, the better for them to order about legions of ogres and hobgoblins...

How's this for a revision:

_This portly and hairy genie stands with a commanding presence,  wearing battle-worn armor adorned by medals.  Blood seeps from every  pore and drips from its hair.
_ 
Warmonger genies serve as military advisers to generals, emirs, and  sultans or serve directly on the battlefield  leading mercenaries and soldiers.  When there is no war to lead, they  find one or start one.

Warmonger genies wear the heaviest armor available.  They also wear  military dress and are fond of including sashes, medals, and the finery  that goes along with rank.

A typical warmonger genie stands 5 feet tall and weighs over 200 pounds.

Warmonger genies speak Common, Ignan, Infernal, Giant and Goblin.

*Combat*
A warmonger genie often takes up a position on horseback at the rear of his  troops or seated in a general's tent on a ridge overlooking the field of  battle. From this vantage they bellow  commands and threats to direct or rally their forces, bolstering them with their spell-like abilities and Inspire Troops power. They typically expend one use of their _heroism_ and _greater magic weapon_  spell-like abilities to boost the combat abilities of the best combatant(s) among their troops, reserving the remaining use for themselves. Warmonger genies also make cunning use of _cause fear_ and _suggestion_ to trick their opponents into making tactical errors.

Although they prefer to lead from behind, warmonger genies are capable warriors and will happily wade into battle if it seems tactically advantageous. They have the wits to flee a losing fight, but the courage to fight to the death if it is their best (or only) chance for victory.


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## Shade (Jul 19, 2010)

Updated.

Have we discussed CR yet?


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## freyar (Jul 19, 2010)

I don't think so.  Probably CR 5 or 6, though.

As pointed out upthread, 10 times a typical warmonger's HD is 70 HD, not 150 HD, for the Inspire Troops ability.


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## Shade (Jul 19, 2010)

Probably CR 5.  They seem no deadlier than djinn.

Updated (including fixing the 70 HD).


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## Cleon (Jul 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Probably CR 5.  They seem no deadlier than djinn.
> 
> Updated (including fixing the 70 HD).




Challenge Rating 5 is fine.

I would still have them Inspire 20 times their Hit Dice for a 140 HD limit, to allow for a decent sized horde.


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## Number 6 (Jul 20, 2010)

That might not be a bad idea... that would let an advanced Warmonger (with 21 HD) inspire up to 420 Hit Dice of troops.

Is 150 Hit Dice of troops too much for a standard Warmonger, or is that about right?


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## Shade (Jul 20, 2010)

Let's stick with 20x HD.  Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2010)

I think they are, finally.


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2010)

freyar said:


> I think they are, finally.




They look fine to me.

Boy, after all that rigmarole I could do with a drink. 

I wonder whether those Winemaker Genies are any good at real ale...


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2010)

Let's ask them...  

*Genie, Tasked, Winemaker *
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate or subtropical villages and hills
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: X,C
ALIGNMENT: Neutral (good tendencies)
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 2
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6 or by weapon type
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M
MORALE: Average (8-10)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 120

Winemaker tasked genies are creatures of the grape, dedicated to nurturing the vines and extracting the finest possible vintages. They are quiet creatures, tending to their fields and casks through the summer and winter and closely supervising the harvests.

This genie has the head of a cat, the body of a dog, and a long trunk which it uses to crush grapes. It stands erect, with individuals varying between 4’ and 5’ tall. They weigh about 150 pounds, the males slightly more, the females slightly less.

Winemaker genies do not wear cloth, but they do drape themselves in grape leaves during the growing season and are generally completely covered in grape juice during the harvest. Most such genies can speak many languages, so as to be able to travel the widest regions possible.

Combat: Winemaker tasked genies are poor fighters, though when they are angered their frenzy can be quite frightening to watch. They use their trunk to catch and crush opponents, causing 1d6 points of damage. 

In addition, winemaker genies can spray their opponents with wine or other liquids they take into their trunk. This spray fills a cone 20’ long and 10’ wide at the base; each creature struck by it must make a saving throw versus paralyzation or be blinded by the stinging wine for 1d3 rounds. If only water is available to the genie, the blinding lasts but a single round.

The winemaker tasked genie can use each of the following spell-like abilities three times per day: water walk (to walk over the vats while stirring), purify food and water, create water, goodberry, speak with animals, and detect poison. Once per week they can cast pass plant (through grapevines only), sunshine, and plant growth.

Any fermented beverage or fruit juice made under the direction of a winemaker genie is held to high standards and is worth four times what a normal beverage might bring in the marketplace. 

Habitat/Society: Winemaker genies are travelers, wandering from harvest to harvest, never staying at a given vineyard for more than two years. Harvest time is the only festival time that winemaker genies celebrate; they are great drinkers and are capable of entertaining workers with wit, song, and even buffoonery at the genie’s expense.

Unfortunately, a winemaker tasked genie’s taste for his own work typically leads to excessive drinking and a slow decay of his skills. Older winemaker genies may become eccentric vintners who cater to jaded palates, or they may become village drunks, madmen, and fools.

Winemaker genies serve only so long as their masters do not mistreat them, do not adulterate or water their wines, and do not ask them to follow any particular method or rule, even the traditions of the vineyard. They demand complete latitude to make wine as they think best. The slightest disagreement may cause them to seek work elsewhere.

Winemaker genies forced to their task are still capable of producing excellent wines, but their special touch may be lacking, and they decline into drunkenness and eccentricity much more quickly.

Ecology: Winemaker genies get along well with wine snobs, drunks, satyrs, nymphs, centaurs, and hill giants. They are friendly to any race that appreciates their talents, and they have been found working for evil humanoids as well as for enlightened caliphs.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix (1992).


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's ask them...
> 
> *Genie, Tasked, Winemaker*




Hmm, I'd forgotten how weak physically these are.

Take a Janni and tweak the stats somewhat?

Janni: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 13

I'd cut all the stats by 2 except for the Constitution (which I'd increase by 2 to help it resist the alcohol!) and the Charisma (which I'd keep the same).

Hold on, that would leave its Int to high at 12. It needs to be average at 10.

*Winemaker Genie*
Medium Outsider (Native)
Armor Class: 12 (+1 Dex, +1 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 11
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 13

Original's SLAs: three times per day: water walk (to walk over the vats while  stirring), purify food and water, create water, goodberry, speak with  animals, and detect poison. Once per week pass plant  (through grapevines only), sunshine, and plant growth.

=> 3/day _water walk_, _purify food and drink_, _goodberry_, _create water_, _speak with animals_ and _detect poison_. 1/week _transport via plant_ (through grapevines only), _daylight_ and _plant growth_.

The highest level spell there is "transport via grapevines" but it's a bit problematical since grapevines don't usually grow to medium size. I think I'd rather change it to a unicorn-style "_greater teleport _within its territory (an area of grapevines up to X miles across)."


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2010)

Ability scores look fine, and I'll agree to the unicorn version of teleport.

Imp Grab and Constrict with the trunk?  The spray is going to be the most interesting part of these.


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ability scores look fine, and I'll agree to the unicorn version of teleport.
> 
> Imp Grab and Constrict with the trunk?  The spray is going to be the most interesting part of these.




They certainly need Grab & Constrict with their trunks.

The spray is a 20' cone that causes 1d3 rounds of blindness with wine or 1 round with water. Pretty straightforward.


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Number 6 (Jul 22, 2010)

Winemaker genies appear to have no special resistance to alcohol, in fact they seem to have as much weakness to it as mortals.

As such, bumping up their Constitution to 14 doesn't make much sense.


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## Cleon (Jul 23, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Winemaker genies appear to have no special resistance to alcohol, in fact they seem to have as much weakness to it as mortals.
> 
> As such, bumping up their Constitution to 14 doesn't make much sense.




Well I just wanted to give them something different. It says "they are great drinkers" under Habitat/Society, but that doesn't mean they are particularly booze-resistant.

I'd be OK if you all want to cut the Con to a Janni's 12.


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## Shade (Jul 23, 2010)

I'm fine with either, although they can use the bonus hps.  They are rather fragile.


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## Number 6 (Jul 23, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Well I just wanted to give them something different. It says "they are great drinkers" under Habitat/Society, but that doesn't mean they are particularly booze-resistant.
> 
> I'd be OK if you all want to cut the Con to a Janni's 12.



The Habitat/Society text also says:
"Unfortunately, a winemaker tasked genie’s taste for his own work  typically leads to excessive drinking and a slow decay of his skills."

If we just want to ignore that for the sake of reasonable Hit Points, which is a perfectly sound excuse as far as I'm concerned, let's do it.  I was getting the impression that you guys were taking much of the write-ups as Gospel... but if that's not the case, give Winemakers a Constitution of 14.


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## Shade (Jul 23, 2010)

Every alignment test I've ever taken has pegged me as strongly chaotic, so read into that what you will.


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## Number 6 (Jul 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> Every alignment test I've ever taken has pegged me as strongly chaotic, so read into that what you will.




[Capt. Renault mode] "I'm shocked,_ shocked_ to find that gambling is going on  in here!" [/Capt. Renault mode]


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## Cleon (Jul 25, 2010)

Shade said:


> Every alignment test I've ever taken has pegged me as strongly chaotic, so read into that what you will.




Bah, if you were _really_ chaotic every one of those tests would have returned a different result.

Fnord!


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## Cleon (Jul 25, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm fine with either, although they can use the bonus hps.  They are rather fragile.




I'm not bothered either way, so I'll leave it to you lot to decide.

Fight! Fight!!


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## freyar (Jul 26, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I'm not bothered either way, so I'll leave it to you lot to decide.
> 
> Fight! Fight!!



You're really an instigator now, aren't you? 

Let's cut to Con 12.  At 2HD, they're going to be pretty low CR anyway.

The breath weapon looks good!  Full-round is probably fair for filling it, too.


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## Shade (Jul 26, 2010)

No worries.  

Updated.

Suggested manufactured weapon for attack lines?  Something heavy for crushing grapes, perhaps?

Caster level for SLAs?

Skills: 8 at 5 ranks
Profession (vintner)?  What else?

Feats: Improved Initiative (B), 1 more
Probably something non-combative.  Possibly Skill Focus?


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## Number 6 (Jul 26, 2010)

Perhaps Skill Focus using Knowledge (geography... because of their familiarity of the region) or Profession (vintner).


Perhaps Appraise... used to judge wines and analyze their qualities.
Perhaps Jump... because of their dog-like bodies (I'm just pulling that out of my ass, obviously).

Perform (singing or dancing)... for when they celebrate the wine season.
Knowledge (geography)
Knowledge (nature)


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## freyar (Jul 26, 2010)

A warhammer of some type, then?

Let's say CL 2.

Know (nature)?  Any other Professions or Crafts we can squeeze in there?  I'm not sure what "vintner" covers.

Skill Focus sounds right.


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## Number 6 (Jul 26, 2010)

Surely they simply crush grapes with their feet and their snout.


freyar said:


> ... I'm not sure what "vintner" covers.



Vintners are wine sellers and wine makers... and, though I loathe to use Wikipedia much, wine makers do this kind of stuff:


Cooperating with viticulturists
Monitoring the maturity of grapes to ensure their quality and to  determine the correct time for harvest
Crushing and pressing grapes
Monitoring the settling of juice  and the fermentation of grape material
Filtering the wine to remove remaining  solids
Testing the quality of wine by tasting
Placing filtered wine in casks or tanks for storage and maturation
Preparing plans for bottling wine once it has matured
Making sure that quality is maintained when the wine is bottled[1]


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## Number 6 (Jul 27, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Surely they simply crush grapes with their feet and their snout.



I can't believe no one has bothered to say, "_Of course they do, but don't call me Shirley_".


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## Shade (Jul 27, 2010)

Shirley, you jest.


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## Number 6 (Jul 27, 2010)

Simple pleasures are best.


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## freyar (Jul 27, 2010)

So maybe we can add Profession (farming), too?


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## Cleon (Jul 27, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Number 6 said:
> 
> 
> > Surely they simply crush grapes with their feet and their snout.
> ...



That's because it's a different kind of grapecrushing altogether.


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## Cleon (Jul 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> You're really an instigator now, aren't you?
> 
> Let's cut to Con 12.  At 2HD, they're going to be pretty low CR anyway.
> 
> The breath weapon looks good!  Full-round is probably fair for filling it, too.




I like to think of myself as more of an agitator.

The breath weapon looks great as it is.


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## Cleon (Jul 27, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Surely they simply crush grapes with their feet and their snout.




I agree. You don't want to use anything hard to press the grapes. If I remember correctly, if a vintner crushes & breaks the skins too much it makes the wine bitter.

A winemaker genie would probably carry a specialized blade for chopping, pruning or grafting their grape vines. I'd think it would be the equivalent of a kukri or a sickle. Probably a kukri, since it needs to be able to cut through a grapevine's stem, which can be quite thick.


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2010)

Updated.

A chance to use a kukri?   Sold!  

Do they need any racial skill bonuses, or are we happy with the modifiers?

Environment: Any temperate or warm land?

Challenge Rating: 2?

Alignment: Always neutral, often good?

Advancement: 3-6 HD (Medium)?

Winemaker genies speak Common and Sylvan?  (It mentions they like to converse with centaurs and the like)


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## Cleon (Jul 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> A chance to use a kukri?   Sold!
> 
> ...




Most of that looks good, except for the languages. It says "Most such genies can speak many languages, so as to be able to travel the widest regions possible." so I'll suggest something like:

Winemaker genies can speak many languages, so as to be able to travel the widest regions possible. A typical winemaker genie speaks 4 languages, such as Common, Elven, Gnome and Sylvan.


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2010)

Sounds good.  Updated.

The flavor text is still a bit too close to the original text for my comfort.  Would someone like to streamline it a bit further?


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## Number 6 (Jul 28, 2010)

You just made my effing day, Cleon!


Cleon said:


> That's because it's a different kind of grapecrushing altogether.



"That's because it's a different kind of grapecrushing."


Actually, Profession (farming) and Profession (vintner) make for a good combo. And the kukri is a great choice.

Maybe a Racial Bonus to Appraise skill checks when judging or analyzing wine.

Do we dare shift a point or two to Craft (cooper) and/or Craft (glassblowing) so they can make their own casks and barrels and wine bottles?  Or is that just plain unnecessary.


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## Number 6 (Jul 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.  Updated.
> 
> The flavor text is still a bit too close to the original text for my comfort.  Would someone like to streamline it a bit further?



Will this work at all?


> _Winemaker genies dedicate themselves to lives as vintners, nurturing grapevines, tending fields, and supervising harvests to create the finest possible vintages. Wine produced by a winemaker genie generally fetches four times its normal value on the open market.
> 
> They never remain at a given vineyard for more than two years. Harvest time is their only celebration; they are great drinkers and are capable of entertaining workers with self-deprecating humor and song.__
> 
> ...



The languages and description should be fine.


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2010)

I like the Craft skills you suggest.  I'd happily steal some ranks from the Performs and/or Jump for them.


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## Number 6 (Jul 29, 2010)

freyar said:


> I like the Craft skills you suggest.  I'd happily steal some ranks from the Performs and/or Jump for them.



On the downside, it makes them kind of a One Man Band, which doesn't quite fit the setting (the Al-Qadim campaign specifically, as well as fantasy campaigns)... but then again, they are tasked genies.  It wouldn't be hard to fathom that they would be asked to do those things occasionally.

In fact, the winemakers are probably rather opinionated as to what materials are used and shapes casks and bottles are made into based on the specific wine type they are making.

"My latest red wine is such a fine quality... only the finest Harabi hardwoods are worthy for making the casks to hold such a vintage!"


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## Shade (Jul 29, 2010)

Updated.  Finished?


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## Number 6 (Jul 30, 2010)

Cleon might have something.

But when the Winemaker is done we should be finished with the MC13 tasked genies.  Before we jump over to the tasked genies from the boxed sets, would anyone mind tackling a few monsters from the City of Delights boxed set?  

Perhaps the al-Jahar, the Pasari-Niml, and the Tatalla?

Maybe moving on to the Tasked Deceiver Genies from ALQ2 after that?


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Cleon might have something.




Well I hope I don't catch it!  



Number 6 said:


> But when the Winemaker is done we should be finished with the MC13 tasked genies.  Before we jump over to the tasked genies from the boxed sets, would anyone mind tackling a few monsters from the City of Delights boxed set?
> 
> Perhaps the al-Jahar, the Pasari-Niml, and the Tatalla?
> 
> Maybe moving on to the Tasked Deceiver Genies from ALQ2 after that?




I'll do you one better:  I'll move the remaining tasked genies to a "Finishing off the Genies" thread, and we can tackle the other critters here.

I believe all the remaining tasked genies were compiled in Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume One, so I'd like to tackle them alphabetically (making the deceiver second only to the administrator).  Sound OK?


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## Number 6 (Jul 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sound OK?



For me it sounds great... very hospitable.

Of course, if anyone else needs a particular monster converted for their campaign I don't want to dominate the requests.


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## Cleon (Jul 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Well I hope I don't catch it!




Well I don't think it's the sort of virus you can catch over the internet.

The Winemaker is looking mighty good.

I think we should retain the mention of them being travellers. We could tweak the rest of description to cut a few words out, e.g.:

Winemaker genies dedicate themselves to lives as vintners: nurturing  their grapevines, fields, and casks to create the  finest possible vintages. Wine produced by a winemaker genie generally  fetches four times its normal value on the open market. They travel constantly, never remain at a given vineyard for more than two years.

Harvest  time is the winemaker genies only celebration; they are great drinkers and are capable  of entertaining workers with songs, jokes and dances. Unfortunately, they sample their own product all too  often, leading them to excessive drinking and a deterioration of  their talent. Older winemaker genies may become drunkards, madmen, or  fools, whose eccentric vintages only cater to jaded palates.

Winemaker genies serve only so long as their masters do not mistreat  them. They do not stand for anyone adulterating or diluting their wine into a less than perfect beverage. Winemaker genies forced  to their task produce excellent wines, but the result may lack their  special touch. Such  winemakers often decline into drunken eccentricity much more  quickly.

...hmm, that's not that much different.



Shade said:


> I'll do you one better:  I'll move the remaining tasked genies to a "Finishing off the Genies" thread, and we can tackle the other critters here.
> 
> I believe all the remaining tasked genies were compiled in Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume One, so I'd like to tackle them alphabetically (making the deceiver second only to the administrator).  Sound OK?




It seems easier to me to keep them in the Al-Qadim thread, but if you've got you're heart set on a Genie thread I won't stand in your way.

There are only six tasked genies in MCA1 aren't there? The Administrator, Deceiver, Harim Servant, Messenger, Miner and Oathbreaker.

Plus we came up with some ideas of our own for new tasked genies.

We fancied a *Tracker/Hunter tasked Genie*, and I think there's a vacancy for a Bodyguard Tasked Genie or a Burglar Tasked Genie.

...and of course we mustn't forget the *Aerosmith Tasked Genie*. 

Aren't there still got quite a few MC7 creatures that haven't been converted yet? I don't see the Ammut, Pahari, Rom, Werehyena or Werelion in the Creature Catalogue. The Ammut and Rom interest me the most.


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## Number 6 (Jul 31, 2010)

There are still a few MC13 monsters left, but I wanted to get a halfway decent conversion on some of those City of Delights monsters since my current campaign is heavily based in Huzuz right now and has Pasari-Niml, Tatalla, and Tasked Deceiver Genies in some upcoming encounters... and I'm eager to get al-Jahar in a plot line.


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## Cleon (Jul 31, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> There are still a few MC13 monsters left, but I wanted to get a halfway decent conversion on some of those City of Delights monsters since my current campaign is heavily based in Huzuz right now and has Pasari-Niml, Tatalla, and Tasked Deceiver Genies in some upcoming encounters... and I'm eager to get al-Jahar in a plot line.




Well since you need them for play, we'd better do them next.

Which would you like to start with?


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## Number 6 (Jul 31, 2010)

Al-Jahar, for some reason, seem to be the biggest trouble... with Pasari-Niml right behind them.

Let's tackle al-Jahar first. 
Thanks.


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## Cleon (Jul 31, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Al-Jahar, for some reason, seem to be the biggest trouble... with Pasari-Niml right behind them.
> 
> Let's tackle al-Jahar first.
> Thanks.




Fine by me.

Are you able to post the City of Delights or MCA1 write up for the Al-Jahar here?


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## Number 6 (Aug 1, 2010)

I would have had this up sooner, but I actually had a fairly serious virus problem with my computer.  (Speak of the devil...)


*Al-Jahar*
_Monstrous Compendium supplement from the City of Delights boxed set for Al-Qadim
_
*CLIMATE/TERRAIN:* Urban
*FREQUENCY:* Very rare
*ORGANIZATION:* Solitary
*ACTIVITY CYCLE:* Any
*DIET:* Special
*INTELLIGENCE:* Very (11-12)
*TREASURE:* O,Q
*ALIGNMENT:* Neutral evil
*NO. APPEARING:* 1
*ARMOR CLASS:* 8
*MOVEMENT:* 12, Fl 12
*HIT DICE:* 5
*THAC0:* 15
*NO. OF ATTACKS:* 2
*DAMAGE/ATTACK:* 1d6/1d6
*SPECIAL ATTACKS:* Spell use
*SPECIAL DEFENSES:* Disguise
*MAGIC RESISTANCE:* 20%
*SIZE:* M (5-7 ft. tall)
*MORALE:* Unsteady (5-7)
*XP VALUE:* 3,000

Al-jahar, also known as dazzles, usually appear as beautiful humanoids; their angelic beauty disguises a terrible secret, for the al-jahar are evil and manipulative. The creatures' true form, which provides their name, is that of genderless winged humanoids comprised of sparkling white motes and waves of almost invisible desert heat. Dazzles hide among the population of cities, generating and feeding upon base emotions of other intelligent creatures.

*Combat:* A dazzle is normally encountered in disguise, often appearing to be a beautiful human or elven woman. The creature can _alter self_ at will, so other disguises are possible, including males or females of most man-sized bipedal races. Dazzles can also use _delude_ and _non-detection_ at will. Hakimas can always see through any dazzle's disguise, and genies and gen have a 50% chance of recognizing a dazzle. Dazzles seek to avoid hakimas and genies, and they never imitate either.

An al-jahar prefers to avoid direct combat, though it often encourages others to fight, for that generates the strong emotions on which it feeds. If emotions such as anger, greed, and lust are present, the dazzle just waits and absorbs them; if not, it generates them. Once per round, the dazzle can use one of the following spell-like abilities: _charm person, friends, hypnotism, taunt, confusion_, or _ventriloquism_. Each ability can be used up to three times per day. They are cast as if the dazzle is a 10th level wizard. Favored dazzle tactics include using _friends_ to get someone to look in its eyes, then _hypnotism_ to cause the victim to start a fight; using _alter self_ to assume a friendly form, then _taunt_ to start a fight; and using _ventriloquism_ to make bystanders appear to toss insults.

If discovered, a dazzle attempts a fast escape, often assuming its real form so it can fly. If pressed, it can fight with its claws and is able to use one of the following abilities each round: _light_ and _shocking grasp_ each three times per day, and _blindness_, _rainbow pattern_, and _domination_ each once per day. The latter three abilities can be used only in the creature's natural form. All are used as if the dazzle is a 10th level wizard. A dazzle is immune to light-generating and emotion-affecting spells and effects, except the sun-sparkle gaze of the opinicus. 

Victims are affected very little by a dazzle, at most feeling exhausted and emotionally drained after several hours in the creature's presence. If the dazzle is careful, it can prey on the same people for years without them ever realizing the truth.

*Habitat/Society:* Al-Jahar prefer to live in large cities, where they have plenty of prey and they can live for years without being discovered. Smaller towns usually recognize much more quickly that something is amiss, and drive the dazzles away.

A dazzle generally has a few standard guises, with a personality for each. Most appear to be normal, if beautiful, people, and many have friends. A dazzle often claims a territory, like a dockside tavern where fights are common and easy to incite. Other dazzles are not welcome in this territory, and may be attacked if they intrude.

Though usually found in a thriving metropolis, such as Huzuz, an al-Jahar may be sometimes encountered, alone and very hungry, in ruined cities as well. If a dazzle does not feed on strong emotions regularly, it weakens until able to use only its disguise abilities. When discovered in ruins, a dazzle adopts the guise of a lost traveler and tries to gain the confidence of its "rescuers," so they will take it to a populated area. In the meantime, it feeds on their suspicion and other emotions to gain enough energy for manipulation and travel on its own. Dazzles have even been known to join adventuring parties for a short time, using their powers to protect themselves, aid the party in small ways, and feed off the party members' emotions. 

The origins of these creatures is unsure. Many associate them with the Haunted Lands or the Ruined Kingdoms, claiming they were summoned from nether regions in lost rites. Dazzles do not seem to breed, and it is suspected that there is a limited number of them in existence.

*Ecology:* Because the dazzle's food supply is unusual, it has little effect on an ecology, though its hunting patterns are often disruptive to the society in which it lives.

A dazzle's blood is useful in making a potion of delusion and other mind-affecting magical items.


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## Number 6 (Aug 1, 2010)

It is worth noting the following details from other entries in the City of Delights boxed set:


From the Glossary:


> *Al-Jahar
> *The dazzle. An evil creature that uses disguise and manipulation to generate the emotions it feeds upon.



From the Opinicus entry:
Are al-Jahar classified as Outsiders?


> Since opinicus are so ancient (often living for centuries), and because they are found in the Haunted Lands and the Ruined Kingdoms, they are assumed to be an ancient beneficial race. _Some wise folk say they were summoned from the outer planes to battle al-Jahar and vargouilles._



...maybe, maybe they too were summoned to Zakhara.


From the Vargouille entry:
But probably just very, very old creatures... maybe Monstrous Humanoids?


> The vargouille, like al-Jahar, the opinicus, and possibly other creatures, seems to be a remnant of the ancient kingdoms of Zakhara.



That might not add much, but I figured it was easy enough to search the PDF for City of Delights for other listings on Dazzle and Jahar.


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## Number 6 (Aug 1, 2010)

Stuff like Hit Dice, alignment, attack damage, and spell-like abilities are extracted below:


> NE medium-sized [type]
> *Initiative* [  ]; *Senses* [  ]; Listen [  ], Spot [  ]
> *Languages* [  ]
> *AC* [  ]  ([  ] Dex, [  ] deflection, [  ] natural), touch [  ], flat-footed [  ]
> ...



*Regarding type:*
With the ambiguity in the write-up, do we make these guys Monstrous Humanoids, Outsiders, or something else entirely... like Fey?

*Regarding possible vulnerabilities:*
 As they are composed sparkling motes of light, do we make them vulnerable to darkness spells and effects?

*Regarding their odd diet:*
Do we base that on an At Will usage of _detect thoughts_?  With the after effects including slight exhaustion and emotional drained for several hours, do we make the effect a temporary Con and Cha drain?  (Perhaps a victim cannot be so effected for another 24 hours.)  Or do we give the Jahar temporary hit points or increased abilities or some other bonus?

*Regarding spells:*
What is the 3.5 equivalent to the _friends_ spell?  _Eagle's splendor_ adds Charisma points... which is the benefit of friends.  But in that case, why not just give them a higher Charisma or a racial bonus to Bluf, Diplomacy, and even Gather Information checks?

The 3.5 equivalent to _light_, as the Jahar seems to use it, is _flare_... do we just add it, or swap it for _light_?


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2010)

I think I'd go with Outsider (native), but fey might work too.  I guess they could be monstrous humanoids, but they seem a little too insubstantial for the most part.


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## Cleon (Aug 1, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> *Regarding type:*
> With the ambiguity in the write-up, do we make these guys Monstrous Humanoids, Outsiders, or something else entirely... like Fey?




My first thought was Native Outsider, I was thinking we could borrow bits from the Jann and the Succubus for the conversion.

My second thought was Fey.

Do you have a preference for one or the other?



Number 6 said:


> *Regarding possible vulnerabilities:*
> As they are composed sparkling motes of light, do we make them vulnerable to darkness spells and effects?




No such weakness is indicated in the original text, so I would vote against it.



Number 6 said:


> *Regarding their odd diet:*
> Do we base that on an At Will usage of _detect thoughts_?  With the after effects including slight exhaustion and emotional drained for several hours, do we make the effect a temporary Con and Cha drain?  (Perhaps a victim cannot be so effected for another 24 hours.)  Or do we give the Jahar temporary hit points or increased abilities or some other bonus?




I would just make it a point or two of Charisma damage. We can note that an Al-Jahar gains X days of nourishment per point of Cha damage it does and leave it at that. Temp hit points usually come from Ability Drain, but Drain seems inappropriate as these monsters don't cause permanent damage.



Number 6 said:


> *Regarding spells:*
> What is the 3.5 equivalent to the _friends_ spell?




I'd think _charm person_ is the closest in the SRD. Since it's already got that, how about adding _daze monster_ or _eagle's splendor_?



Number 6 said:


> The 3.5 equivalent to _light_, as the Jahar seems to use it, is _blur_... do we just add it, or swap it for _light_?




Pardon, were do you get that from?

If it uses the _light _spell in combat it probably casts it into an opponent's face to blind them, which was permissible in AD&D. If we want it to use the same tactic we'll need to give it _cause blindness_.

EDIT: Come to think of it, the _flare_ spell is a better match for the AD&D "blind with _light_" trick.


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## Cleon (Aug 1, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> I would have had this up sooner, but I actually had a fairly serious virus problem with my computer.  (Speak of the devil...)




Maybe I was wrong then?



Cleon said:


> Well I don't think it's the sort of virus you can catch over the internet.


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## Number 6 (Aug 1, 2010)

Check my earlier edit on _blur_ versus _flare_.  Also, _blindness_ is already part of the creature's SLA repertoire as listed in the original text.


The main reason I would consider making it a Fey creature is only to preserve the ambiguity of the creature's origins.  Other than that, Outsider (native) is a very sensible choice.


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## Cleon (Aug 2, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Check my earlier edit on _blur_ versus _flare_.  Also, _blindness_ is already part of the creature's SLA repertoire as listed in the original text.




_Flare_ is a rather weak spell for a 5HD creature to use in combat. How about making it quickened, so it can flash an opponent and attack at the same time?



Number 6 said:


> The main reason I would consider making it a Fey creature is only to preserve the ambiguity of the creature's origins.  Other than that, Outsider (native) is a very sensible choice.




Well their true form as winged glowing humanoids and the description of their "angelic" appearance is leaning me towards Outsider, so shall we use that?

Let's start roughing it out.

How's this for a start?:

(Note I took out _alter self_ in favour of change shape. The _alter self_ spell only allows it to turn into other Outsiders, which may not be much use as a disguise!)

*Al-Jahar*
Medium Outsider (Native)
Hit Dice: 5d8+5 (27 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 30 ft. (average)
Armor Class: 12 (+2 Dex), touch 12, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+6
Attack: Claw +7 melee (1d6+1)
Full Attack: 2 claws +7 melee (1d6+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Drain emotions, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Change shape, darkvision 60 ft., spell resistance X
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +6
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 20 ?
Skills: 9 skills at 8
Feats: 2
Environment: Any urban
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: ?
Treasure: ?
Alignment: Always neutral evil?
Advancement: ?
Level Adjustment: ?

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): At will – _lesser confusion_, _nondetection_, _undetectable alignment_; 3/day – _charm person, detect thoughts, _quickened _flare, hypnotism, shocking grasp, __ventriloquism_; 1/day (when in natural form) – _blindness, dominate person, and rainbow pattern_. Caster level 10th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

We still need something to stand in for _friends_ and _taunt_.


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## Number 6 (Aug 2, 2010)

_Change Shape_ is a much better idea than an _alter self_ spell-like ability... including the duration.

The idea of a Quickened _flare_ SLA works well!  In fact, we could Heighten it and get the Save DC up to a very respectable level.  Speaking of boosting Save DCs for SLAs... should it have _lesser confusion_ instead of _confusion_?

I wouldn't lean toward Outsider on it's wings and angelic appearance, but that's such a minor reason.  As with Freyar, I'm fine with either the Outsider or Fey type.

Your list of Ability Scores looks nice... I didn't want to be the first one to suggest a Charisma of 20, so I'm glad someone else was thinking of it.


As an alternative to _friends_ and _taunt_ we might opt for _rage _and/or_ scare_.  _Friends_ affects the caster while _eagle's splendor_ can target others.


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## freyar (Aug 2, 2010)

So we're using one of the feats on Quicken SLA?  Want to make the un-quickened flare at will?  Unfortunately, there's no core feat to heighten SLAs.


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## Number 6 (Aug 2, 2010)

Just looking at the Google translator, it says "al-Jahar" means Manifest... though "Jahar" means Hole or Terrier.

The more I use that thing, the more I shake my head at the terms used in Al-Qadim. 


freyar said:


> So we're using one of the feats on Quicken SLA?  Want to make the un-quickened flare at will?  Unfortunately, there's no core feat to heighten SLAs.



All metamagic feats effectively "heighten" the Spell Level of SLAs... and those other than Heighten Spell provide other advantages.  Even if we prefer to only use one metamagic feat, the DC of quickened _flare_ will have a Save DC of 19... which ain't bad for a creature with 5 Hit Dice.

We might want to use Hover as a feat, too.

Certainly for skills the Jahar ought to load up on the Charisma-based skills and probably Sense Motive.


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## Cleon (Aug 2, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> _Change Shape_ is a much better idea than an _alter self_ spell-like ability... including the duration.
> 
> The idea of a Quickened _flare_ SLA works well!  In fact, we could Heighten it and get the Save DC up to a very respectable level.  Speaking of boosting Save DCs for SLAs... should it have _lesser confusion_ instead of _confusion_?




If you look in my proposed rough draft you'll see it's already got _lesser confusion_.

It's got a great Charisma bonus, so its saves should be decent from that.



Number 6 said:


> Your list of Ability Scores looks nice... I didn't want to be the first one to suggest a Charisma of 20, so I'm glad someone else was thinking of it.




Actually I was thinking "a Succubus has 26 Charisma but nobody would buy that".



Number 6 said:


> As an alternative to _friends_ and _taunt_ we might opt for _rage _and/or_ scare_.  _Friends_ affects the caster while _eagle's splendor_ can target others.




_Rage_ is a great substitute for _taunt_. Let's use that.

How about _enthrall_ as the _friends_ substitute?


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## Cleon (Aug 2, 2010)

freyar said:


> So we're using one of the feats on Quicken SLA?  Want to make the un-quickened flare at will?  Unfortunately, there's no core feat to heighten SLAs.




I was just going to arbitrarily Quicken it or, failing that, make it a bonus feat. It doesn't have to cost a feat.

What about the SLAs the original could only use in its natural form? (_blindness_, _rainbow pattern_ and _domination_) That doesn't follow standard Change Self / Alter Self rules, so perhaps we should cut those out of its SLAs and make them Supernatural powers derived from its "Dazzling Appearance"?


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## Cleon (Aug 2, 2010)

freyar said:


> So we're using one of the feats on Quicken SLA?   Want to make the un-quickened flare at will?  Unfortunately, there's no  core feat to heighten SLAs.




Hmm, I think we should give it _flare_ at-will. It is called a Dazzle after all, so it suits it to have a dazzling attack it can use whenever it fancies.



Cleon said:


> What about the SLAs the original could only use in its natural form? (_blindness_, _rainbow pattern_ and _domination_) That doesn't follow standard Change Self / Alter Self rules, so perhaps we should cut those out of its SLAs and make them Supernatural powers derived from its "Dazzling Appearance"?




Further on that, I've decided I'd prefer to custom-tweak the Change Self and SLAs. It's already got "when in natural form" after its 1/days, so just needs a bit of explanation.

Also, shouldn't detect thoughts be at-will or a Su power - since it feeds of strong emotions I'd think it should be able to sense them constantly. 

e.g.:

*Change Self (Su):* An al-jahar can assume the form of any Small or Medium-sized humanoid. It can not use its _blindness, dominate person or rainbow pattern_ spell-like abilities when it is in humanoid form.

*Sense Hostility (Ex):* An al-jahar can sense negative emotions such as anger, greed, hatred or lust. It can sense such emotions in any intelligent creatures within a 30 ft. radius. This functions like the psionic power _detect hostile intent_.

_*Spell-Like Abilities (Sp):*_ At will – _flare, _ _nondetection_, _undetectable alignment_; 3/day – _charm person_, _hypnotism, __lesser confusion_,_rage__, __ventriloquism__, _quickened _flare, shocking grasp_; 1/day (only in natural form) – _blindness, dominate person, and rainbow pattern_. Caster level 10th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## Number 6 (Aug 2, 2010)

Will these skills work:
Bluff, Concentrate, Diplomacy, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Perform, Sense Motive.

Or less with the Hide and Perform?  I figured the Perform could be focused on Acting, but they already will have Bluff and Diplomacy.

Perhaps just 5 ranks in Perform (acting) to give a +2 synergy bonus to Bluff.

Gather Information could be used as gossip collecting... which would be great leads for someone hunting down strong emotions, or stirring up trouble.



Cleon said:


> If you look in my proposed rough draft you'll see it's already got _lesser confusion_.



What I should have said is... shouldn't we make it the full version of _confusion_?  _Lesser confusion_ will have a lower Save DC... and bigger is better. 



Cleon said:


> ...I was thinking "a Succubus has 26 Charisma but nobody would buy that".



If anyone else wants to boost it up to 22 or 24 I'll support it, for what it is worth. 



Cleon said:


> How about _enthrall_ as the _friends_ substitute?



Sure.  It doesn't do the same thing, but it seems to fit.  It is the sort of thing it _should_ do!



> ...(_blindness_,  _rainbow pattern_ and _domination_) ...perhaps we should cut those  out of its SLAs and make them Supernatural powers derived from its  "Dazzling Appearance"?



Let's do it.  It fits the original intent and uses the standards of v3.5.



> Also, shouldn't _detect thoughts_ be at-will or a Su power - since it  feeds of strong emotions I'd think it should be able to sense them  constantly.



Yeah, it probably should be At Will... but while I like your idea of borrowing the mechanics from the _detect hostile intent_ psionic power, we should add something about the ability working on any strong emotions... love, despair, elation, etc.

Perhaps phrased like this:
*Sense Emotion (Ex):* An al-jahar can sense strong emotions  such as anger, despair, elation, greed, hatred, love, or lust. It can sense such emotions in any  intelligent creatures within a 30 ft. radius. This functions like the  psionic power _detect hostile intent_.


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## Cleon (Aug 4, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Will these skills work:
> Bluff, Concentrate, Diplomacy, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Perform, Sense Motive.
> 
> Or less with the Hide and Perform?  I figured the Perform could be focused on Acting, but they already will have Bluff and Diplomacy.
> ...




Surely it needs Disguise as well, since it relies on its Change Self to be inconspicuous? Of course it gets a +10 bonus for its supernatural disguise.

At the very least it needs Sense Motive (to tell how to provoke emotions); Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate (to help provoke emotions), Concentration (to use its SLAs) and Hide and Disguise (to avoid detection).

Perform doesn't give a synergy bonus to Bluff according to d20SRD.org, so it seems surplus to requirements.

Forgery and Gather Information are useful, but would seem lower priority.

I think we'd also better give it some ranks in Move Silently, Listen and Spot.

How about this for a skill rank distribution:

*Skills Ranks:* Bluff 8, Concentrate 6, Diplomacy 8, Disguise 8, Forgery 4, Gather Information 4, Hide 6, Intimidate 6, Move Silently 6, Listen 4, Sense Motive 8, Spot 4


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## Cleon (Aug 4, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> What I should have said is... shouldn't we make it the full version of _confusion_?  _Lesser confusion_ will have a lower Save DC... and bigger is better.




I agree to switching to _full confusion_, not for the higher DC but because it affects a 15' radius rather than a single target.



Number 6 said:


> Cleon said:
> 
> 
> > How about _enthrall_ as the _friends_ substitute?
> ...




I've had a better idea since that proposal. The psionic power *telempathic projection* has a very similar effect to the old _friends_ spell, so how about using that?

Indeed, we could make a "psionic varient" of the Dazzle, since a lot of its powers are mental.



Number 6 said:


> Cleon said:
> 
> 
> > What about the SLAs the original could only use in its natural form? (_blindness_, _rainbow pattern_ and _domination_)  That doesn't follow standard Change Self / Alter Self rules, so perhaps  we should cut those out of its SLAs and make them Supernatural powers  derived from its "Dazzling Appearance"?
> ...




I'm happy keeping them SLAs for the time being. The modified Change Self text covers the 1/day powers restriction to its natural form.



Number 6 said:


> Yeah, it probably should be At Will... but while I like your idea of borrowing the mechanics from the _detect hostile intent_ psionic power, we should add something about the ability working on any strong emotions... love, despair, elation, etc.
> 
> Perhaps phrased like this:
> 
> *Sense Emotion (Ex):* An al-jahar can sense strong emotions  such as anger, despair, elation, greed, hatred, love, or lust. It can sense such emotions in any  intelligent creatures within a 30 ft. radius. This functions like the  psionic power _detect hostile intent_.




I was thinking it sensed the negative emotions it fed off.

However, I've since changed my mind about that and thought we could use the psionic power *empathy* instead of _detect hostile intent_, since that seemed a better fit.

For a start, _detect hostile intent_ gives protection from surprise and there's nothing in the original text about them being hard to ambush.

*Sense Emotion (Ex):* An al-jahar can sense strong emotions  such  as anger, despair, elation, greed, hatred, love, or lust. It can sense  such emotions in any  intelligent creatures within a 30 ft. radius. This  functions like the  psionic power _empathy_. This ability gives the al-jahar a +2 insight bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, or Sense Motive checks against creatures that are susceptible to mind-affecting powers.


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## Number 6 (Aug 4, 2010)

Hell!... you wasted no time while EN World was down for maintenance!


Cleon said:


> Surely  it needs Disguise as well, since it relies on its Change Self to be  inconspicuous? Of course it gets a +10 bonus for its supernatural  disguise.



Certainly put Disguise... I intended to put that in, but never  double-checked.

The skill list is pretty sharp, too.  And you're  absolutely right about Telempathic Projection... that's perfect.  Your  idea of a psionic variation has promise.


Is this looking like  a CR 3?


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2010)

Boy, a couple of comments here before you get too far ahead!

Metamagic spell feats don't apply to SLAs, and only Heighten Spell changes the DC anyway.  SLAs have DCs set by the base spell level and appropriate stat modifier (generally Cha).

Surely Sense Emotions should be (Su) and not (Ex) (or even Sp or Ps).  An Ex version would just be a strong racial bonus to Sense Motive.  And if you're tying it to the feeding, how could feeding on emotions be Ex?


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## Cleon (Aug 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> Boy, a couple of comments here before you get too far ahead!
> 
> Metamagic spell feats don't apply to SLAs, and only Heighten Spell changes the DC anyway.  SLAs have DCs set by the base spell level and appropriate stat modifier (generally Cha).
> 
> Surely Sense Emotions should be (Su) and not (Ex) (or even Sp or Ps).  An Ex version would just be a strong racial bonus to Sense Motive.  And if you're tying it to the feeding, how could feeding on emotions be Ex?




Yes, Sense Emotions ought to be Su, as should its emotional feeding power.

Speaking of that, are we OK with making its "Feed on Emotions" a 1 Charisma damage attack? I'm thinking it can only attack a particular foe once every 24 hours, and it can use this attack against any creature affected by its mind-affecting SLAs.

Something like:

*Feed on Emotions (Su):* An al-jahar can feed off emotional energy, but it can only feed off intelligent creature gripped by strong negative emotions (rage, lust, greed, et cetera), although such emotions can be natural or induced by such spells such as _domination_, _fear_ or _rage_. An al-jahar can attempt to feed off all creatures within a 30 ft. radius. Any creature gripped by a hateful passion must attempt a DC X Will save, if they fail they take 1 Charisma damage and can not be affected by any al-jahar's feed on emotions attack for the next 24 hours.

Al-jahar must feed on emotions to sustain their powers. One point of Charisma damage is enough to sustain an al-jahar for a day. If an al-jahar goes hungry for more than a week it is unable to use its 1/day spell-like powers, if it goes hungry for a month its 3/day powers become 1/day powers, after 3 months it can only use its at-will powers and is fatigued, and if it goes hungry for a year it cannot use any of its spell-like or psionic powers and is exhausted (although it can still change shape and sense and feed on emotions). It is impossible for an al-jahar to starve to death, they can linger for centuries without the strength to cast a spell. An al-jahar can recover from a stage of starvation by feeding off Y [10? 5?] points of Charisma.


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2010)

Can one of you summarize where you're at so I can add 'em to Homebrews?


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## Cleon (Aug 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> Can one of you summarize where you're at so I can add 'em to Homebrews?




We've got the following, more or less:

*Al-Jahar*
Medium Outsider (Native)
Hit Dice: 5d8+5 (27 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 30 ft. (average)
Armor Class: 12 (+2 Dex), touch 12, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+6
Attack: Claw +7 melee (1d6+1)
Full Attack: 2 claws +7 melee (1d6+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Feed on emotions, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Change shape, darkvision 60 ft., psionics, sense emotions, spell resistance X
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +6
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 20
Skills: Bluff +15* (+17 with Sense Emotions), Concentration +7 (+11 with Combat Casting), Diplomacy +17*  (+19 with Sense Emotion), Disguise +13* (+15 act in character), Forgery  +5, Gather Information +9, Hide +8, Intimidate +15* (+17 with Sense  Emotions), Move Silently +8, Listen +6, Sense Motive +10, Spot +6
Feats: Combat Casting, Persuasive
Environment: Any urban
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: ?
Treasure: ?
Alignment:Always neutral evil
Advancement: ?
Level Adjustment: ?

*Change Self (Su):* An al-jahar can assume the form of any Small or Medium-sized humanoid. It can not use its _blindness, dominate person or rainbow pattern_ spell-like abilities when it is in humanoid form.

*Feed on Emotions (Su):* An al-jahar can feed off emotional energy,  but it  can only feed off intelligent creature gripped by strong  negative  emotions (rage, lust, greed, et cetera), although such  emotions can be  natural or induced by such spells such as domination,  fear or rage. An  al-jahar can attempt to feed off all creatures within a  30 ft. radius.  Any creature gripped by a hateful passion must attempt a  DC X Will save,  if they fail they take 1 Charisma damage and can not  be affected by any  al-jahar's feed on emotions attack for the next 24  hours.

Al-jahar must feed on emotions to sustain their powers. One point of   Charisma damage is enough to sustain an al-jahar for a day. If an   al-jahar goes hungry for more than a week it is unable to use its 1/day   spell-like powers, if it goes hungry for a month its 3/day powers  become  1/day powers, after 3 months it can only use its at-will powers  and is  fatigued, and if it goes hungry for a year it cannot use any of  its  spell-like or psionic powers and is exhausted (although it can  still  change shape and sense or feed on emotions). It is impossible for  an  al-jahar to starve to death, they can linger for centuries without  the  strength to cast a spell. An al-jahar can recover from a stage of   starvation by feeding off 5 points of Charisma.

_*Psionics (Ps):*_ 3/day – _telempathic projection_. Manifester level 10th. The save DC is Charisma-based.

*Sense Emotions (Ex):* An al-jahar can sense strong emotions   such  as anger, despair, elation, greed, hatred, love, or lust. It can  sense  such emotions in any  intelligent creatures within a 30 ft.  radius. This  functions like the  psionic power _empathy_. This  ability gives the al-jahar a +2 insight bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy,  Intimidate, or Sense Motive checks against creatures that are  susceptible to mind-affecting powers.     

_* Spell-Like Abilities (Sp):*_ At will – _flare, nondetection_, _undetectable alignment_; 3/day – _charm person, __confusion_, _detect thoughts, _quickened _flare, hypnotism, rage, shocking grasp, __ventriloquism_; 1/day (when in natural form) – _blindness, dominate person_,_ rainbow pattern_. Caster level 10th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2010)

Thanks!

Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Aug 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Added to Homebrews.




Don't mention it!

If the proposed skill ranks are OK, they work out as follows, I think I've got all the skill synergies.

*Skills:* Bluff +13* (+15 with Sense Emotions), Concentration +7, Diplomacy +17* (+19 with Sense Emotion), Disguise +13* (+15 act in character), Forgery +5, Gather Information +9, Hide +8, Intimidate +13* (+15 with Sense Emotions), Move Silently +8, Listen +6, Sense Motive +10, Spot +6


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## Cleon (Aug 6, 2010)

Cleon said:


> *Feed on Emotions (Su):* An al-jahar can feed off emotional energy,  but it can only feed off intelligent creature gripped by strong  negative emotions (rage, lust, greed, et cetera), although such emotions  can be natural or induced by such spells such as _domination_, _fear_ or _rage_.  An al-jahar can attempt to feed off all creatures within a 30 ft.  radius. Any creature gripped by a hateful passion must attempt a DC X  Will save, if they fail they take 1 Charisma damage and can not be  affected by any al-jahar's feed on emotions attack for the next 24  hours.
> 
> Al-jahar must feed on emotions to sustain their powers. One point of  Charisma damage is enough to sustain an al-jahar for a day. If an  al-jahar goes hungry for more than a week it is unable to use its 1/day  spell-like powers, if it goes hungry for a month its 3/day powers become  1/day powers, after 3 months it can only use its at-will powers and is  fatigued, and if it goes hungry for a year it cannot use any of its  spell-like or psionic powers and is exhausted (although it can still  change shape and sense and feed on emotions). It is impossible for an  al-jahar to starve to death, they can linger for centuries without the  strength to cast a spell. An al-jahar can recover from a stage of  starvation by feeding off Y [10? 5?] points of Charisma.




Upon reflection, I prefer "sense or feed" over "sense and feed" in the Feed on Emotions description. I think I'll revise it.

Plus, I am leaning towards having 5 points of Charisma feeding being enough to revive a starving al-jahar one stage.

Revising...

*Feed on Emotions (Su):* An al-jahar can feed off emotional energy, but it  can only feed off intelligent creature gripped by strong negative  emotions (rage, lust, greed, et cetera), although such emotions can be  natural or induced by such spells such as domination, fear or rage. An  al-jahar can attempt to feed off all creatures within a 30 ft. radius.  Any creature gripped by a hateful passion must attempt a DC X Will save,  if they fail they take 1 Charisma damage and can not be affected by any  al-jahar's feed on emotions attack for the next 24 hours.

Al-jahar must feed on emotions to sustain their powers. One point of  Charisma damage is enough to sustain an al-jahar for a day. If an  al-jahar goes hungry for more than a week it is unable to use its 1/day  spell-like powers, if it goes hungry for a month its 3/day powers become  1/day powers, after 3 months it can only use its at-will powers and is  fatigued, and if it goes hungry for a year it cannot use any of its  spell-like or psionic powers and is exhausted (although it can still  change shape and sense or feed on emotions). It is impossible for an  al-jahar to starve to death, they can linger for centuries without the  strength to cast a spell. An al-jahar can recover from a stage of  starvation by feeding off 5 points of Charisma.


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2010)

Looking good!


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## Cleon (Aug 7, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looking good!




Okay, I'll stick the skills and revised Feed on Emotions in my working draft since I've seen no objections to them.

What do you fancy for the Feats?

Combat Casting? Persuasive or Negotiator?

EDIT: I've *Updated* my working draft.

Are we OK with "Always neutral evil" for the alignment? We could go "Always evil, usually neutral" instead.

Since they feed of negative emotions, a non-Evil Al-Jahar doesn't feel right to me, but I could see them being Chaotic or Lawful.


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## freyar (Aug 8, 2010)

Either way on alignment suits.

Combat Casting and Persuasive work for me.


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## Cleon (Aug 8, 2010)

freyar said:


> Either way on alignment suits.




Might as well leave them NE then.



freyar said:


> Combat Casting and Persuasive work for me.




As you like. It doesn't make a wild amount of difference.

I'll update the *working draft*.


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## Shade (Aug 9, 2010)

Updated.

I'm not sure I like this bit:



> Change Self (Su): An al-jahar can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid. *It cannot use its blindness, dominate person or rainbow pattern spell-like abilities when it is in humanoid form*.




Why prevent only the use of three of its SLAs?  I'd rather make it all or nothing on the SLAs while in a different form.


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## Number 6 (Aug 9, 2010)

Shade said:


> Why prevent only the use of three of its SLAs?  I'd rather make it all or nothing on the SLAs while in a different form.



Because those abilities come from their luminous bodies... they are motes of light.

So, when in a different form, those abilities cannot be manifested as they are visual in nature.  Their other Spell-Like and Psi-Like Abilities apparently do not come from their light.

It might not even mean that the target needs to see the light, but the ability apparently comes from their motes of light.


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## Cleon (Aug 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Why prevent only the use of three of its SLAs?  I'd rather make it all or nothing on the SLAs while in a different form.




Basically because that's how the original monster worked.

One possible solution we proposed earlier was to make these Supernatural powers rather than SLAs, something like:

*Bewitching Light (Su):* An al-jahar in its natural form can blind, dominate and fascinate opponents with its light. It can perform each of these functions once per day, with the same effects as the spells _blindness/deafness_ (blinding only, Fort DC 19), _dominate person_ (Will DC 19) and _rainbow pattern_ (Will DC 19). The save DCs are Charisma-based and include a +2 racial bonus.

*Change Self (Su):* An al-jahar can assume the form of any Small or Medium-sized humanoid. It can not use its bewitching light powers (see above) while in humanoid form.


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## Shade (Aug 10, 2010)

I think that makes better sense since they are differentiated from the other abilities.


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## freyar (Aug 10, 2010)

Umm, can we turn "change self" into either "alternate form" or "change shape" for rules clarity?


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## Shade (Aug 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> Umm, can we turn "change self" into either "alternate form" or "change shape" for rules clarity?




Absolutely!  I'm glad you caught that.  

Updated.


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## freyar (Aug 11, 2010)

One question for Feed on Emotions: can it use Bewitching Lights when it's starving?


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## Number 6 (Aug 11, 2010)

Anyone mind if they lose the Bewitching Lights abilities after three months of no feeding, or should that be sooner?

Also regarding Bewitching Lights, what is the effect of darkness spells?  It doesn't need to be physical damage... but is that significant enough to thwart the Bewitching Lights abilities, provide bonuses to saves, or not significant at all?


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## Cleon (Aug 11, 2010)

freyar said:


> One question for Feed on Emotions: can it use Bewitching Lights when it's starving?




Good point, we'd better rephrase that:

Oh, and I think it may make more sense to add "feeding" to the start of that second paragraph.

*Feed on Emotions (Su):* An al-jahar can feed off emotional energy, but it  can only feed off intelligent creature gripped by strong negative  emotions (rage, lust, greed, et cetera), although such emotions can be  natural or induced by such spells such as domination, fear or rage. An  al-jahar can attempt to feed off all creatures within a 30 ft. radius.  Any creature gripped by a hateful passion must attempt a DC 17 Will  save, if they fail they take 1 Charisma damage and can not be affected  by any al-jahar's feed on emotions attack for the next 24 hours.  The  save DC is Charisma-based.

Al-jahar must feed on emotions to sustain their powers. Feeding on one point of  Charisma damage is enough to sustain an al-jahar for a day. If an  al-jahar goes hungry for more than a week it is unable to use its bewitching light powers, if it goes hungry for a month its 3/day spell-like abilities become  1/day powers, after 3 months it can only use its at-will spell-like abilities and is  fatigued, and if it goes hungry for a year it cannot use any of its  spell-like or psionic powers and is exhausted (although it can still  change shape and sense or feed on emotions). It is impossible for an  al-jahar to starve to death, they can linger for centuries without the  strength to cast a spell. An al-jahar can recover from a stage of  starvation by feeding off 5 points of Charisma.


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## Cleon (Aug 11, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Anyone mind if they lose the Bewitching Lights abilities after three months of no feeding, or should that be sooner?
> 
> Also regarding Bewitching Lights, what is the effect of darkness spells?  It doesn't need to be physical damage... but is that significant enough to thwart the Bewitching Lights abilities, provide bonuses to saves, or not significant at all?




Hmm, a bonus to saves is my favourite among those.


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## Number 6 (Aug 11, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Hmm, a bonus to saves is my favourite among those.



You're speaking my language. 

Based, perhaps, on the Spell Level of the light spell in question?


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## Cleon (Aug 11, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> You're speaking my language.
> 
> Based, perhaps, on the Spell Level of the light spell in question?




Don't you mean Darkness spell?

It would be easier just giving it a flat +2 or something, but I suppose we could do the other thing.

Or we could reduce the DC, something like. "Bewitching lights is weakened by any spell with the darkness descriptor. If the al-jahar or its opponent is under the effects of such a spell the DC of the bewitching lights power is reduced by a number equal to the spell level of the highest level darkness spell."?


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## Number 6 (Aug 11, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Don't you mean Darkness spell?
> 
> It would be easier just giving it a flat +2 or something, but I suppose we could do the other thing.
> 
> Or we could reduce the DC, something like. "Bewitching lights is weakened by any spell with the darkness descriptor. If the al-jahar or its opponent is under the effects of such a spell the DC of the bewitching lights power is reduced by a number equal to the spell level of the highest level darkness spell."?



Technically, darkness spells.

While I like the simplicity of a straightforward +2 bonus for the victim, lowering the Save DC has a certain appeal to me.


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## freyar (Aug 11, 2010)

Well, the flat change is maybe a little simpler to track, but a save bonus or a DC reduction is the same thing, except "active" vs "passive".


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## Cleon (Aug 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, the flat change is maybe a little simpler to track, but a save bonus or a DC reduction is the same thing, except "active" vs "passive".




Quite. So do you prefer DC-lowering:

"Bewitching lights is weakened by any spell with the darkness  descriptor. If the al-jahar or its opponent is under the effects of such  a spell the DC of the bewitching lights power is reduced by a number  equal to the spell level of the highest level darkness spell."

or save-boosting:

"Bewitching lights is weakened by any spell with the darkness  descriptor. If the al-jahar or its opponent is under the effects of such  a spell the opponent receives a bonus to their saves against bewitching lights power equal to the spell level of the highest level darkness spell."

I guess I like the wording of the save-boosting a bit better, but it doesn't make much difference to me.


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## freyar (Aug 12, 2010)

Well, in game-world logic, it would make sense for a save boost if the opponent is in magical darkness and a DC reduction if the al-jahar is in the darkness, but that's pretty unwieldy.

I don't really mind whichever you folks decide, but another thing to consider that might be simpler is that bewitching lights just doesn't function if either al-jahar or victim is within a magic darkness effect of some level or higher.


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## Cleon (Aug 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, in game-world logic, it would make sense for a save boost if the opponent is in magical darkness and a DC reduction if the al-jahar is in the darkness, but that's pretty unwieldy.
> 
> I don't really mind whichever you folks decide, but another thing to consider that might be simpler is that bewitching lights just doesn't function if either al-jahar or victim is within a magic darkness effect of some level or higher.




Well what level would be appropriate? Its bewitching lights mimics a 2nd level (_blindness_), 4th level (_rainbow pattern_) and 5th level (_dominate person_) spells.

I'd go for 3rd+ level Darkness spells, so it takes a _blacklight_ or _armour of darkness_ to block it?


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## Number 6 (Aug 13, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, in game-world logic, it would make sense for a save boost if the opponent is in magical darkness and a DC reduction if the al-jahar is in the darkness, but that's pretty unwieldy.



Unwieldy or not, it might be important for a crew that actually can cast one of the darkness spells on the al-Jahar and another on the intended victim... granting a +2 bonus to the victim's save and reducing the al-Jahar's Save DC by 2.

Not only that, but reducing the al-Jahar's DC by 2 benefits all intended victims... the +2 save bonus only benefits those victims in the effected area of one of the darkness spells.


I hasten to add that I'm merely saying this for the sake of the discussion... while I tend to favor the _bonuses/DC penalty_ option, I'm certainly not going to die on a hill for it.


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## Cleon (Aug 13, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Unwieldy or not, it might be important for a crew that actually can cast one of the darkness spells on the al-Jahar and another on the intended victim... granting a +2 bonus to the victim's save and reducing the al-Jahar's Save DC by 2.
> 
> Not only that, but reducing the al-Jahar's DC by 2 benefits all intended victims... the +2 save bonus only benefits those victims in the effected area of one of the darkness spells.




Weren't we discussing giving it a save bonus OR a DC lowering, not both?

I would rather not have it stack like that. 



Number 6 said:


> I hasten to add that I'm merely saying this for the sake of the discussion... while I tend to favor the _bonuses/DC penalty_ option, I'm certainly not going to die on a hill for it.




I'm starting to feel having it blocked by Darkness spells of 3rd level or higher is my preferred solution.

e.g.

"Bewitching lights is opposed by magical darkness. An al-jahar's bewitching lights in ineffective if the al-jahar or its opponent is under the effects of spell with the Darkness   descriptor that is 3rd level or higher, such as _blacklight_ or _armour of darkness_."


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## Number 6 (Aug 14, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Weren't we discussing giving it a save bonus OR a DC lowering, not both?



I'm sure you were... that's why I added the idea.


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## Cleon (Aug 14, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> I'm sure you were... that's why I added the idea.




Well I fear I'm not enamoured of the idea of the idea, mainly because the two save-adjustments would stack since they're modifying different stats. It also seems needlessly complex.

Not that I mind needless complexity, but there's a time and a place for everything!

Do you have a preference among save-bonus, DC-penalty or Darkness spell level limit?


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## freyar (Aug 15, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Well I fear I'm not enamoured of the idea of the idea, mainly because the two save-adjustments would stack since they're modifying different stats. It also seems needlessly complex.




Where is the real Cleon, and what have you done with him?  



I think I'd go with 3rd level darkness spells.


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## Cleon (Aug 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> Where is the real Cleon, and what have you done with him?




I've been feeling a lot better since I visited the planet of the Brain Slugs.

They're so tasty those Brain Slugs, why don't you try one...



freyar said:


> I think I'd go with 3rd level darkness spells.




Like this?

*Bewitching Light (Su):* An al-jahar in its natural form can  blind, dominate and fascinate opponents with its light. It can perform  each of these functions once per day, with the same effects as the  spells _blindness/deafness_ (blinding only, Fort DC 19), _dominate person_ (Will DC 19) and _rainbow pattern_ (Will DC 19). The save DCs are Charisma-based and include a +2 racial bonus.

Bewitching lights is opposed by magical darkness. An al-jahar's  bewitching lights is ineffective if the al-jahar or its opponent is  under the effects of a 3rd  level or higher spell with the Darkness   descriptor, such as _blacklight_ or _armour of darkness_.


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## Number 6 (Aug 16, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Well I fear I'm not enamoured of the idea of the idea, mainly because the two save-adjustments would stack since they're modifying different stats.



But surely that's a feature... not a bug. 


Cleon said:


> Do you have a preference among save-bonus, DC-penalty or Darkness spell level limit?



After thinking about it some more, your recent idea seems the best of the bunch... block it entirely by darkness spells.  It makes the most sense and it is unambiguous.


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## Shade (Aug 16, 2010)

I like the latest solution.  

Updated.


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## Number 6 (Aug 16, 2010)

We'll need to add immunity to light spells and effects and emotion-affecting spells and effects:
"_A dazzle is immune to light-generating and emotion-affecting spells and  effects, except the sun-sparkle gaze of the opinicus._"

How would we state that?  Just as is?

Regarding the Opinicus, do we wait until we work out the opinicus and note how their gaze effects al-Jahar, or add it in the al-Jahar details?


How about this for the *Description* text:


Number 6 said:


> _This winged humanoid looks as though it were composed of sparkling white motes of light.  Its genderless form and waves of almost invisible desert heat give the creature an otherworldly appearance._
> 
> Al-Jahar, also known as dazzles, hide among the population of cities.  They feed upon the base emotions of intelligent creatures.  Al-Jahar may generate these emotions through magic as well as mundane means.  If the al-Jahar is careful, it can prey on the same people for years  without them ever realizing the truth.  Smaller towns usually recognize much more quickly that something is  amiss, and drive the creatures away.
> 
> ...



We might want to whittle that down a bit.


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## Shade (Aug 16, 2010)

I'd suggest limiting it to charms, compulsions, and spells and effects with the light descriptor.   "Emotion-affecting spells" leaves far too much to interpretation for my tastes.

That flavor text is a nice start!


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## Cleon (Aug 16, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> We'll need to add immunity to light spells and effects and emotion-affecting spells and effects:
> "_A dazzle is immune to light-generating and emotion-affecting spells and  effects, except the sun-sparkle gaze of the opinicus._"
> 
> How would we state that?  Just as is?
> ...




Seems a bit too special-case for me. I'd rather have something like immunity to light-based attacks except those that have a special effect against Evil Outsiders, which affect it normally, and then give our Opinicus conversion such a gaze attack. (when we get around to converting it!)


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## Cleon (Aug 16, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> _This winged humanoid looks as though it were composed of sparkling  white motes of light.  Its genderless form and waves of almost invisible  desert heat give the creature an otherworldly appearance._




The "_waves of almost invisible  desert heat_" bit reads a bit oddly. I know it's in the original but they don't have any heat-based abilities. How about:

_This winged humanoid looks as though it were composed of sparkling  white motes of light.  Its genderless form wavers like a heat-mirage, giving the creature an otherworldly appearance._



Number 6 said:


> Al-Jahar, also known as dazzles, hide among the population of cities.   They feed upon the base emotions of intelligent creatures.  Al-Jahar may  generate these emotions through magic as well as mundane means.  If the  al-Jahar is careful, it can prey on the same people for years  without  them ever realizing the truth.  Smaller towns usually recognize much  more quickly that something is  amiss, and drive the creatures away.
> 
> Al-Jahar often claims a territory, like a dockside tavern where fights   are common and easy to incite. Other al-Jahar are not welcome in this   territory, and may be attacked if they intrude.
> 
> ...




The bit in red looks like it belongs in their Tactics entry.

I think we can trim it down a bit, how about this:_This winged humanoid looks as though it were composed of sparkling   white motes of light.  Its genderless form wavers like a heat-mirage,  giving the creature an otherworldly appearance.

_Al-jahar, also known as dazzles, are evil shapechangers who feed upon the base emotions of intelligent creatures.  They usually take on the shape of a beautiful human or elven woman.   Their origins are unclear: some say they hail from desolate wastes that were once cursed kingdoms, others believe them fiends summoned by some forgotten rite. Dazzles do not appear to age or breed, so there may be a limited number of them.

Al-jahar prefer living in cities, since they are more likely to be discovered in small towns. They stake out territories were violence and lust are commonplace and easy to incite, such as dockside taverns. Al-jahar are highly territorial loners, they may attack other al-jahar who trespass onto their territory.

These monsters are sometimes encountered in ruins (often settlements ruined by the al-jahar itself). They try to persuade visitors to transport them to an inhabited area.

Al-jahar dislike good creatures, they particularly hate and fear opinicus.

Al-jahar speaks Common and Elven.

*Combat*
Al-jahar try to avoid combat by masquerading as a harmless civilian, such as a beautiful woman or beggar. They then use their intrigue and spell-like abilities to incite others to violence or debauchery in order to feed off their base emotions.

Threatened al-jahar attempt to flee, remaining in humanoid disguise were possible, or flying away if their true form is discovered. A hard pressed al-jahar will fight with its talons and magical powers.​


Number 6 said:


> *Al-Qadim Campaigns:*
> Usually found in Huzuz, al-Jahar may appear in any thriving metropolis.   Scholars believe they might be a remnant from the Haunted Lands or the  Ruined Kingdoms.  Alternatively, these previous city-states and lost  kingdoms might have summoned al-Jahar using spells now forgotten or  forbidden by Enlightenment.




That looks OK to me.


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## Number 6 (Aug 16, 2010)

I like your rewrite... and the description text works better.

You might want to move references to the Haunted Lands and the Ruined Kingdoms out of the general write up and only leave them in the Al-Qadim notes.


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## Cleon (Aug 17, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> I like your rewrite... and the description text works better.
> 
> You might want to move references to the Haunted Lands and the Ruined Kingdoms out of the general write up and only leave them in the Al-Qadim notes.




Yes, didn't I mention I thought it was redundant? ... Oh, no I see I left that thought out.

I'll change it to "some say they hail from desolate wastes that were once cursed kingdoms".

EDIT: Oh, and I also wondered whether "shimmers" isn't better than "wavers" in the description's "_Its genderless form wavers like a heat-mirage_". Do you think it'd be an improvement?


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## Number 6 (Aug 17, 2010)

Cleon said:


> ...Oh, and I also wondered whether "shimmers" isn't better than "wavers" in the description's "_Its genderless form wavers like a heat-mirage_". Do you think it'd be an improvement?



Not an earth-shattering improvement, but yeah... shimmer works better.

When I say the description out loud, 'wavers' makes me think the thing is signing legal documents.


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## Number 6 (Aug 17, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Seems a bit too special-case for me. I'd rather have something like immunity to light-based attacks except those that have a special effect against Evil Outsiders, which affect it normally, and then give our Opinicus conversion such a gaze attack.



We might as well use your exact phrasing.  That sounds good.



Cleon said:


> ...(when we get around to converting it!)



If we continue with the Pasari Niml and Tatalla we might as well finish off the monsters appendix from City of Delights and include the Opinicus.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'd suggest limiting it to charms, compulsions, and spells and effects with the light descriptor. "Emotion-affecting spells" leaves far too much to interpretation for my tastes.



Either that or simply make it immune to fear spells and effects.  I think most of the other emotion spells grant bonuses.

Hmmm... I kind of like expanding this immunity to charms & compulsions.


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2010)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 4?

Treasure: Standard?

Advancement: 6-15 HD (Medium)?

Level Adjustment: +6?

Al-jahar stand 5 to 7 feet tall and weigh x to x pounds.


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## Cleon (Aug 17, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Hmmm... I kind of like expanding this immunity to charms & compulsions.




I prefer immunity to charms and fear. Compulsions include spells which clearly have little or nothing to do with emotion, such as _modify memory_ and _feeblemind_.


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## Cleon (Aug 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Challenge Rating: 4?
> 
> ...




Challenge Rating 4 sounds right.

Standard treasure's fine by me. The original had gems (Type Q) and copper & silver coins (Type O), but giving them the potential to have magic items suits me.

Advancement's fine.

They don't seem suitable as PCs, so I wouldn't give them a LA.

Since they're made out of "sparkling light", they probably don't weigh much - 75 to 150 pounds?


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## Cleon (Aug 17, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Not an earth-shattering improvement, but yeah... shimmer works better.
> 
> When I say the description out loud, 'wavers' makes me think the thing is signing legal documents.




I agree with myself any yourself.

_This winged humanoid looks as though it were composed of sparkling    white motes of light.  Its genderless form shimmers like a heat-mirage,   giving the creature an otherworldly appearance._


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2010)

Updated.   Finished?


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## Number 6 (Aug 19, 2010)

It looks pretty nailed down to me.  Which one should we tackle next?  Alphabetical in City of Delights or just hit Pasari-Niml or Tatalla?


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2010)

I'd say go with the opinicus before we forget the abilities we need to give it.


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## Number 6 (Aug 19, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'd say go with the opinicus before we forget the abilities we need to give it.



Damn!  I already did! lol
Yeah, let's do the opinicus.  We can do the standard and the psionic version.


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## Cleon (Aug 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.   Finished?




There are a couple of minor niggles in the power descriptions.

I'd like to mention the opinicus's gaze attack in the Immunity to Light SQ, e.g.:
*Immunity to Light-Based Attacks (Ex):* Al-jahar are immune to all light-based attacks, except those that have a special effect against evil outsiders, such as the sun-sparkle gaze of the opinicus.​Also, it looks like we have too many suches in the first sentence of Feed on Emotion:
Feed on Emotions (Su): An al-jahar can feed off emotional energy, but it  can only feed off intelligent creature gripped by strong negative  emotions (rage, lust, greed, et cetera), although such emotions can be  natural or induced by such spells such as domination, fear or rage.​That's just plain ugly, how about:
*Feed on Emotions (Su):* An al-jahar can feed off emotional energy, but it  can only feed off intelligent creature gripped by strong negative  emotions (rage, lust, greed, et cetera), these emotions can be  natural or induced by spells such as _domination_, _fear _or _rage_. An  al-jahar can attempt to feed off all creatures within a 30 ft. radius.  Any creature gripped by a hateful passion must attempt a DC 17 Will  save, if they fail they take 1 Charisma damage and can not be affected  by any al-jahar's feed on emotions attack for the next 24 hours.  The  save DC is Charisma-based.​


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## Cleon (Aug 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'd say go with the opinicus before we forget the abilities we need to give it.




Fools Seldom Differ Great Minds Think Alike! 

I was going to suggest doing the Opinicus next as well.


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## Number 6 (Aug 23, 2010)

Opinicus
From the City of Delights Monstrous Appendix sheets.



> OPINICUS
> 
> *CLIMATE/TERRAIN:* Any surface ruins
> *FREQUENCY:* Very rare
> ...



Right out of the gate:

Presumably it is an Outsider*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN:* Any surface ruins
*ORGANIZATION:* Solitary
*INTELLIGENCE:* 16
*ALIGNMENT:* Chaotic good
*NO. APPEARING:* 1-2
*ARMOR CLASS:* Possibly a good Dex, some kind of natural armor, and possibly a Deflection bonus if it is an Outsider
*MOVEMENT:* Possibly a speed of 40 or 50, with a 50 or 60 Fly speed, maneuverability rating might be Good
*HIT DICE:* 7d ?  (plus 21 hit points from Con)
*SIZE:* M (3 ft. at shoulder, 12-ft. wingspan) 

Psionics ought to make this fella interesting!


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## freyar (Aug 23, 2010)

I actually get Magical Beast from the description and "mad wizard's experiment" phrase.  I guess I could see Outsider (native) from that bit at the end, but I'm not sure I'm completely sold on that.

Agree that these are interesting!  SLAs, cleric casting, and psionics!  Does this sound more like innate manifestation or PLAs?

Besides Int 16, I think we've got enough info to support Con 16 and Wis 18.


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## Number 6 (Aug 23, 2010)

If you look in heraldry, the Opinicus is a variation on the Griffon.  However, I vaguely recall some connection or similarities to the Shedu.

Remember the other text I grabbed from the Glossary of the City of Delights:


> Since opinicus are so ancient (often living for centuries), and because they are found in the Haunted Lands and the Ruined Kingdoms, they are assumed to be an ancient beneficial race. _Some wise folk say they were summoned from the outer planes to battle al-Jahar and vargouilles._



It is all pretty vague, though.


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## Shade (Aug 23, 2010)

Here's the 3e version of the opinicus already in the Creature Catalog:
Creature Catalog - Preview Creature

We can build upon that, or start from scratch for the 3.5 "overhaul".


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## Number 6 (Aug 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> Creature Catalog - Preview Creature
> 
> We can build upon that, or start from scratch for the 3.5 "overhaul".



I'm in favor of simply adjusting that version... it ought to be less work.


----------



## Number 6 (Aug 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> Agree that these are interesting!  SLAs, cleric casting, and psionics!  Does this sound more like innate manifestation or PLAs?



I'm inclined to say they are PLAs.


----------



## Shade (Aug 23, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> I'm in favor of simply adjusting that version... it ought to be less work.




Agreed.  Looking it over, it appears a good foundation that just needs some cleanup and clarification.


----------



## Number 6 (Aug 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> Agreed.  Looking it over, it appears a good foundation that just needs some cleanup and clarification.



Should we start by bringing the Psionics up to 3.5, or start on another part?


----------



## Shade (Aug 23, 2010)

I've added the basics to Homebrews.

Beyond that, psionics is a fine place to start.


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## Number 6 (Aug 23, 2010)

This is the 3rd edition details on the Opinicus' psionic powers


> *Psionics (Sp)*: At will – _*animate object*, control air,  dimension door, *dimension walk*, dream travel, inertial barrier,  levitate, probability travel, teleport, telekinesis, teleport trigger,  *time/space anchor – dimensional anchor?*_.  Opinicus usually have  between 4-7 of the above abilities, which they use to play their  harmless pranks.  These abilities are as the powers manifested by a  5th-level psion.
> 
> _Attack/Defense Modes (Sp)_: At will – _all/all_



Do we eliminate the Attack & Defense powers... obviously those powers still exist, but they are all integrated into the rest of the powers, right?  I believe a number of creatures that used to have Attack and Defense Modes simply have one or two of those powers.

Do we want to expand the list of potential powers to optimize the prank angle?


----------



## Shade (Aug 23, 2010)

Here are the Attack/Defense Modes and Equivalent 3.5 Powers:

*Attack Modes*
A. Psionic Blast
B. Mind Thrust
C. Ego Whip
D. Id Insinuation
E. Psychic Crush

*Defense Modes*
F. Mind Blank
G. Thought Shield
H. Mental Barrier
I. Intellect Fortress
J. Tower of Iron Will

Ego Whip (2nd, save)

Empty Mind (1st, no save)

Id Insinuation (2nd, save)

Intellect Fortress (4th, no save)

Mind Blast = Psionic blast (3rd, save)

Mind Thrust (1st, save)

Mental Barrier (3rd, no save)

Psychic Crush (5th, save)

Thought Shield (2nd, no save)

Tower of Iron Will (5th, save [harmless])

I'd say we drop the 4th and 5th-level powers as it is only a 7 HD creature.  The rest are probably fine.

I'm all for expanding the list of potential powers to optimize the prank angle.


----------



## Number 6 (Aug 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'd say we drop the 4th and 5th-level powers as it is only a 7 HD creature.  The rest are probably fine.



I'd cut most if not all of the Attack and Defense related powers as they don't fit the style of the Opinicus.  The attacks that confuse might fit, though.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 24, 2010)

What about my niggles regarding the Al-Jahar power descriptions?



Cleon said:


> There are a couple of minor niggles in the power descriptions.
> 
> I'd like to mention the opinicus's gaze attack in the Immunity to Light SQ, e.g.:*Immunity to Light-Based Attacks (Ex):* Al-jahar are immune to all light-based attacks, except those that have a special effect against evil outsiders, such as the sun-sparkle gaze of the opinicus.​Also, it looks like we have too many suches in the first sentence of Feed on Emotion:Feed on Emotions (Su): An al-jahar can feed off emotional energy, but it  can only feed off intelligent creature gripped by strong negative  emotions (rage, lust, greed, et cetera), although such emotions can be  natural or induced by such spells such as domination, fear or rage.​That's just plain ugly, how about:*Feed on Emotions (Su):* An al-jahar can feed off emotional energy, but it  can only feed off intelligent creature gripped by strong negative  emotions (rage, lust, greed, et cetera), these emotions can be  natural or induced by spells such as _domination_, _fear _or _rage_. An  al-jahar can attempt to feed off all creatures within a 30 ft. radius.  Any creature gripped by a hateful passion must attempt a DC 17 Will  save, if they fail they take 1 Charisma damage and can not be affected  by any al-jahar's feed on emotions attack for the next 24 hours.  The  save DC is Charisma-based.​


----------



## Number 6 (Aug 24, 2010)

They are lovely... however, in regards to the frequency of the word "such" we ought to to in the other direction.

[such] Each sentence ought to have at least one "such", and as such some of them ought to both start and end with "such". [/such]


----------



## Cleon (Aug 24, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> They are lovely... however, in regards to the frequency of the word "such" we ought to to in the other direction.
> 
> [such] Each sentence ought to have at least one "such", and as such some of them ought to both start and end with "such". [/such]




Such is your opinion, but to such discerning persons as myself such an excessive use of "such" is such a crime as to merit horsewhipping or some such punishment.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> Here's the 3e version of the opinicus already in the Creature Catalog:
> Creature Catalog - Preview Creature
> 
> We can build upon that, or start from scratch for the 3.5 "overhaul".




Hmm, the 2E version has some pretty meaty psionic and spell-like powers like telekinesis, plane shifting and 3/day _holy word_.

The sun sparkle is rather underwhelming though, I was thinking it'd do something more than 2d8 damage against Undead and Evil Outsiders.



Shade said:


> I'd say we drop the 4th and 5th-level powers as it is only a 7 HD creature.  The rest are probably fine.
> 
> I'm all for expanding the list of potential powers to optimize the prank angle.




I'd rather keep the 4th and 5th level powers to make them terrible foes of evil creatures.

As for their tendency to be pranksters, their _animate object_ and _control air_ powers have plenty of potential for tricks.


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## Number 6 (Aug 25, 2010)

> *Psionics (Sp)*: At will – _*animate object*, control air,    dimension door, *dimension walk*, dream travel, inertial barrier,   levitate, probability travel, teleport, telekinesis, teleport trigger,   *time/space anchor – dimensional anchor?*_.  Opinicus usually have   between 4-7 of the above abilities, which they use to play their   harmless pranks.  These abilities are as the powers manifested by a   5th-level psion.
> 
> _Attack/Defense Modes (Sp)_: At will – _all/all_



Listed in 3.5:
_Control air, dimension door (psionic), dream travel, inertial barrier, levitate (psionic), teleport (psionic)_, and _teleport trigger_.

_Dimension walk_ and _probability travel_ are not listed... what are the 3.5 versions?
Is _animate object _now _control object_?
Is _time/space anchor_ now _dimensional anchor_?
Is _telekinesis_ now _telekinetic force_?


----------



## Shade (Aug 25, 2010)

Yes, I believe you are correct:

Time/Space Anchor = Dimensional Anchor, Psionic
Animate Object = Control Object
Telekinesis = Telekinetic Force

Dimension walk and probability travel probably can be replaced by psionic plane shift and astral traveler/caravan.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 25, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yes, I believe you are correct:
> 
> Time/Space Anchor = Dimensional Anchor, Psionic
> Animate Object = Control Object
> ...




Wouldn't it be easier to scrap both those PSA and give it a genie-like plane shift special ability?


----------



## Shade (Aug 25, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Wouldn't it be easier to scrap both those PSA and give it a genie-like plane shift special ability?




I'd be perfectly content with that.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 25, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'd be perfectly content with that.




Let's give it a plane shift (Su) then.


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## Shade (Aug 26, 2010)

Limit the opinicus to the same planes as genies?  Or cut out the elemental planes?   Perhaps add a good-aligned plane?

Plane Shift (Sp): A genie can enter any of the elemental planes, the Astral Plane, or the Material Plane. This ability transports the genie and up to eight other creatures, provided they all link hands with the genie. It is otherwise similar to the spell of the same name (caster level 13th).


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## Number 6 (Aug 26, 2010)

Regarding psionics:


			
				Some PLAs for the Opinicus said:
			
		

> _Control air, __control object, __dimension door (psionic), __dimensional anchor, __dream travel, inertial barrier, levitate (psionic), telekinetic force, teleport (psionic)_, and _teleport trigger_.



Do we want to do two versions, like the illithids with one using "psionics" based on spells and another using the proper psionic version?


			
				Some additional PLAs for the Opinicus said:
			
		

> _Ego whip, empty mind, id insinuation, intellect fortress, psionic blast, mind thrust, mental barrier, psychic crush, thought shield_, and _tower of iron will_



Scanning through the psionic monsters for old Psionic Attacks and Psionic Defenses, it looks like most of them only have a few powers that were once categorized attacks and defenses.

Does that matter or should we just give them all the attacks and defenses?

Any psionic feats we want to consider?


----------



## Number 6 (Aug 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> Limit the opinicus to the same planes as genies?  Or cut out the elemental planes?   Perhaps add a good-aligned plane?



Definitely use a good-aligned plane... possibly exclusively.

ADDITIONAL:
Probably not exclusively.  I'm backing away from that right now.


----------



## freyar (Aug 27, 2010)

I'll also agree to add good-aligned planes, and I lean toward dropping the elemental planes.

Why don't we just pick a few psi-likes that are useful for attack and defense?

As for psionic feats, we should wait till we get to all the feats, since those will need to be changed anyway.


----------



## Shade (Aug 27, 2010)

OK, the majority of us seem to agree on this...

Plane Shift (Sp): An opinicus can enter any good-aligned plane, the Astral Plane, or the Material Plane. This ability transports the opinicus and up to eight other creatures, provided they all link hands with the opinicus. It is otherwise similar to the spell of the same name (caster level 13th). 

I agree we should just pick the PLAs we like. I've bolded my preferences:

*control air*
*control object*
dimension door (psionic)
*psionic dimensional anchor*
dream travel
*inertial barrier*
levitate (psionic)
*telekinetic force*
*teleport (psionic)*
*teleport trigger*
ego whip
*empty mind*
*id insinuation*
*intellect fortress*
psionic blast
*mind thrust*
*mental barrier*
psychic crush
*thought shield*
tower of iron will


----------



## freyar (Aug 28, 2010)

Seems like a fine selection to me.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> OK, the majority of us seem to agree on this...
> 
> Plane Shift (Sp): An opinicus can enter any good-aligned plane, the Astral Plane, or the Material Plane. This ability transports the opinicus and up to eight other creatures, provided they all link hands with the opinicus. It is otherwise similar to the spell of the same name (caster level 13th).
> 
> ...




That seems a pretty good selection. Would you mind dropping the _teleport trigger_ and adding the _dream travel_ to the *bold *list?


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## Cleon (Aug 30, 2010)

I've been thinking, the flavour text says evil creatures are terrified of Opinicuses (if that's the correct plural), but they don't seem that tough too me.

How about doing a regular and greater version of the monster?

The standard Opinicus can use the cut-down list of Psi-Like Abilities we've been talking about, while the Greater Opinicus can have enough power to put the fear of Good in ordinary evil monsters like Hieracosphinxes. We can also boost its sun-sparkle gaze to searing light levels or keep the damage down and let the Greater Opinicus use it as a swift action.

Also, the AD&D versions of the Opinicus can cast _holy word _3/day each instead of 1/day and is a 7th level cleric (with full spellcasting and the ability to turn undead). That seems appropriate for a Greater version.


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## Shade (Aug 30, 2010)

In most cases I'd rather not make a greater version just for the sake of having a greater version, but it makes good sense here.

Teleport trigger was clearly on the 2e list, so I'd like to keep it, but I'm amenable to adding dream travel as well.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> In most cases I'd rather not make a greater version just for the sake of having a greater version, but it makes good sense here.




Success!

Better finish the regular Opinicus first.



Shade said:


> Teleport trigger was clearly on the 2e list, so I'd like to keep it, but I'm amenable to adding dream travel as well.




Suits me. If we keep _dream travel_ I think we can safely drop Plane Shift from the regular Opinicus and reserve it for the greater version.


----------



## Shade (Aug 30, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Suits me. If we keep _dream travel_ I think we can safely drop Plane Shift from the regular Opinicus and reserve it for the greater version.




That is, except for the non-psionic underbar.


----------



## freyar (Aug 31, 2010)

Sounds like a good idea, then.  Can we get a homebrews update to see how it looks?


----------



## Shade (Aug 31, 2010)

Updated.

Assuming the manifester level matches its caster level, it doesn't have enough "virtual" power points to use dream travel, psionic teleport or teleport trigger.  As a result, let's move those abilities to the greater version, along with holy word 3/day.

Perhaps we should reduce heal to 1/day for the lesser version, and replace holy word with holy smite?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 31, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Assuming the manifester level matches its caster level, it doesn't have enough "virtual" power points to use dream travel, psionic teleport or teleport trigger.  As a result, let's move those abilities to the greater version, along with holy word 3/day.
> 
> Perhaps we should reduce heal to 1/day for the lesser version, and replace holy word with holy smite?




That's all right by me.

Still think we need to do something to improve Sun Sparkles though. What about making it a swift action?


----------



## Shade (Sep 1, 2010)

Updated.

Swift action appeals.   I also am not fond of "once ever 10 rounds".  How about 1d4+1 rounds, as is common for breath weapons?   It's not really all that powerful of an ability.

Maybe we should improve it to resemble holy smite?



> The spell deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d8) to each evil creature in the area (or 1d6 points of damage per caster level, maximum 10d6, to an evil outsider) and causes it to become blinded for 1 round. A successful Will saving throw reduces damage to half and negates the blinded effect.
> 
> The spell deals only half damage to creatures who are neither good nor evil, and they are not blinded. Such a creature can reduce that damage by half (down to one-quarter of the roll) with a successful Will save.




I'm thinking something like this...

Sun Sparkles (Su): The gaze of an opinicus glows with the brightness of the upper planes. As a swift action, an opinicus can utilize sun sparkles as a gaze attack.  All evil creatures within 30 feet that meet its gaze take 2d8 points of damage (3d6 for an evil outsider) and become blinded for 1 round.  A successful DC X Will saving throw reduces damage to half and negates the blinded effect.  An opinicus must wait 1d4+1 rounds before using sun sparkles again.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Swift action appeals.   I also am not fond of "once ever 10 rounds".  How about 1d4+1 rounds, as is common for breath weapons?   It's not really all that powerful of an ability.
> 
> Maybe we should improve it to resemble holy smite?
> 
> ...




That looks great! The only change I can suggest is I'd make it 4d6 versus evil outsiders rather than 3d6.

Do we want to make it holy damage?


----------



## Number 6 (Sep 1, 2010)

I gotta catch up! 
Though, it's looking damn nice.


Cleon said:


> That looks great! The only change I can suggest is I'd make it 4d6 versus evil outsiders rather than 3d6.
> 
> Do we want to make it holy damage?



Yeah, make it 4d6 for evil outsiders!


----------



## Shade (Sep 1, 2010)

Cleon said:


> That looks great! The only change I can suggest is I'd make it 4d6 versus evil outsiders rather than 3d6.




Will do.  Updated.



Cleon said:


> Do we want to make it holy damage?




Nope, since that isn't technically a damage type (it's usually referred to simpy as "resulting from divine power"), and isn't part of holy smite.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Will do.  Updated.
> 
> Nope, since that isn't technically a damage type (it's usually referred to simpy as "resulting from divine power"), and isn't part of holy smite.




That's OK. It makes it harder for those fiends to resist it.


----------



## Shade (Sep 2, 2010)

Based on their description, I think Protection makes more sense than Chaos for the domains, with Protection and Trickery being the best choices for our sample.

Assuming that...

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/5+1/4+1/3+1/2+1; save DC 14 + spell level); 
0—create water (2), detect magic, mending, purify food and drink, read magic; 
1st—bless, bless water, endure elements, entropic shield, sanctuary*, shield of faith; 
2nd—delay poison, invisibility*, shatter, sound burst, status; 
3rd—create food and water, nondetection*, searing light, wind wall; 
4th—confusion*, divine power, freedom of movement.
*Domain spell, Domains: Protection and Trickery.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Based on their description, I think Protection makes more sense than Chaos for the domains, with Protection and Trickery being the best choices for our sample.
> 
> Assuming that...
> 
> ...




I'd stick a _resistance_ in instead of one of those _create water_ orisons, but apart from that it looks fine.


----------



## Shade (Sep 2, 2010)

That'll work.  Updated.

Skills: 40 ranks
Concentration, Listen, Knowledge (the planes), Spot...

Feats: 3


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## Number 6 (Sep 2, 2010)

What about Psionic Fist?  Too combative?

Up the Walls, Sidestep Charge, or Psionic Dodge?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> That'll work.  Updated.
> 
> Skills: 40 ranks
> Concentration, Listen, Knowledge (the planes), Spot...




Instead of Knowledge (the planes) I'd rather give them some skills that suit their love of trickery.

How about 5 ranks apiece in Bluff and Sleight of Hand?



Number 6 said:


> What about Psionic Fist?  Too combative?
> 
> Up the Walls, Sidestep Charge, or Psionic Dodge?




A creature with a 70 ft. fly speed (good) doesn't really need Up The Wall.

It'd need regular Dodge to qualify for Psionic Dodge, and a +1 dodge bonus is of debatable value.

Psionic Fist and Sidestep Charge are OK by me, although I'm open to alternative.

How about Ghost Attack for the third feat?


----------



## Shade (Sep 3, 2010)

Bluff and Sleight of Hand appeal.

Since it can't become psionically focused, Ghost Strike and Psionic Fist are useless, right?

Maybe Spell Penetration?


----------



## Number 6 (Sep 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> Since it can't become psionically focused, Ghost Strike and Psionic Fist are useless, right?



Then let's give the opinicus 2 psionic power points.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> Bluff and Sleight of Hand appeal.
> 
> Since it can't become psionically focused, Ghost Strike and Psionic Fist are useless, right?




Oh right, you need psionic power points for focus, not just PLAs. Silly rule...



Shade said:


> Maybe Spell Penetration?




Don't you mean Power Penetration?
(Yes I do know that requires psionic focus as well)

It's manifester level is high enough to give it empowered _mind thrust_, but I feel we've done that trick already.

Why not just give it Iron Will so that Will isn't its lowest save? That doesn't seem right for a psionic creature.

*Feats:* Iron Will, Sidestep Charge, Spell Penetration


----------



## Shade (Sep 3, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Then let's give the opinicus 2 psionic power points.




We'd have to give it a level in a psionic class.  I'm not sure it's worth it.



Cleon said:


> Oh right, you need psionic power points for focus, not just PLAs. Silly rule...




Agreed.  It's one of the few things I dislike about the 3.5 psionic rules.



Cleon said:


> Why not just give it Iron Will so that Will isn't its lowest save? That doesn't seem right for a psionic creature.
> 
> *Feats:* Iron Will, Sidestep Charge, Spell Penetration




That works for me!


----------



## Number 6 (Sep 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> We'd have to give it a level in a psionic class.  I'm not sure it's worth it.



Not as I understand it.

A number of races start off with a token psionic point or more, but they are not required to take a psionic class.  They may then take the psionic feats that require psionic focus.

For example, a Dromite has the following _Racial Ability_...



> *Naturally Psionic:* Dromites gain 1 bonus power point at 1st level. This  benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they  gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic  class.



With that ability, a Dromite could make a Concentration check to gain psionic focus so it could use its Psionic Fist feat... or some other psionic feat requiring psionic focus.


----------



## Shade (Sep 3, 2010)

Ahh, right.  There is that.  It's usally reserved for playable races, though.  I'm not sure we need it here, as Cleon accidentally mentioned Divine Might for the greater lammasu, which lack turn undead, but would be a perfect fit here.

Thus...

Divine Might, Power Attack, Sidestep Charge

Sound good?


----------



## Number 6 (Sep 3, 2010)

I'm more in favor of Iron Will than Divine Might... Cleon's point about Will saves is well taken.


----------



## Shade (Sep 3, 2010)

We could keep Iron Will and replace Sidestep Charge.  It would get much more mileage out of Divine Might.


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## Number 6 (Sep 3, 2010)

Make it so, sir.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> We could keep Iron Will and replace Sidestep Charge.  It would get much more mileage out of Divine Might.




I like that.

*Feats:* Divine Might, Iron Will, Power Attack.

I don't like Challenge Rating 10 for them, they look more like CR8 like the SRD Lammasu. They're a bit stronger than a Lammasu despite having worse melee damage, since they have the same level of clerical ability and their other magical & psionic powers are better. I could see us going up to CR9, but no higher than that.

Its Sleight of Hand should be +14, not +12, according to my calculations it doesn't have the +2 synergy bonus from Bluff. Either that or its Concentration should be +13.

Oh, and their rake attack should do less damage. It shouldn't have the +1 Strength bonus, and its claw damage is only 1d3.


----------



## Number 6 (Sep 6, 2010)

What about swapping Power Attack for Improved Natural Attack?  The Opinicus gets a +8 to hit, but I would think they wouldn't want to sacrifice many of those points for extra damage.

Then again, Improved Natural Attack would only bump it up to 1d4 for the claw attacks.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 7, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> What about swapping Power Attack for Improved Natural Attack?  The Opinicus gets a +8 to hit, but I would think they wouldn't want to sacrifice many of those points for extra damage.
> 
> Then again, Improved Natural Attack would only bump it up to 1d4 for the claw attacks.




Well as usual we could just increase the claw damage if we wanted too and not change the feat.

I'm not that happy with Power Attack though.

We've got plenty of other options though.

Maybe Ability Focus (sun sparkles), or AF in a PLA like _id insinuation_? Although I prefer the +2 DC on the sparkles.


----------



## Shade (Sep 7, 2010)

Power Attack is a prereq for Divine Might.


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## Number 6 (Sep 7, 2010)

Let's do that voodoo that Cleon do... make claw damage 1d4.

Do we want to consider any racial feats?  Like Ability Focus on Sun Sparkles.


----------



## Shade (Sep 8, 2010)

I can go down to CR 9 .

1d4 claw damage sounds good.  

Rather than Ability Focus as a bonus feat, let's just assign it a racial bonus on the save DC to sun sparkles.

Updated.

An opinicus stands 3 feet high at the shoulder, weighs x pounds, and has a wingspan of 12 feet. Most opinicus are colored a light buff to a golden brown with slightly darker faces and wings. Opinicus have a lifespan of several centuries.

Opinicus speak Celestial and Common?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 8, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Let's do that voodoo that Cleon do... make claw damage 1d4.
> 
> Do we want to consider any racial feats?  Like Ability Focus on Sun Sparkles.




I'm happy with sun sparkles DC as it is. The claw damage doesn't bother me either way.


----------



## Shade (Sep 8, 2010)

Thoughts on these?

An opinicus stands 3 feet high at the shoulder, weighs x pounds, and has a wingspan of 12 feet. Most opinicus are colored a light buff to a golden brown with slightly darker faces and wings. Opinicus have a lifespan of several centuries.

Opinicus speak Celestial and Common?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 9, 2010)

Shade said:


> Thoughts on these?
> 
> An opinicus stands 3 feet high at the shoulder, weighs x pounds, and has a wingspan of 12 feet. Most opinicus are colored a light buff to a golden brown with slightly darker faces and wings. Opinicus have a lifespan of several centuries.
> 
> Opinicus speak Celestial and Common?




Opinicus are about the size of a lion, so I reckon they should weigh the same (~250 to 400 pounds) - 300 pounds?

Celestial and Common are fine.


----------



## Shade (Sep 9, 2010)

Updated.  What's left?


----------



## Number 6 (Sep 9, 2010)

Don't a number of desert creatures also speak Terran?  If so, should we add that to languages for the Opinicus?


----------



## Shade (Sep 10, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Don't a number of desert creatures also speak Terran?  If so, should we add that to languages for the Opinicus?




Mostly it's just those creatures with ties to elemental earth.  Still, the opinicus is smart enough, so why not?  

Are we ready to work on the non-psionic version and the greater opinicus?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Mostly it's just those creatures with ties to elemental earth.  Still, the opinicus is smart enough, so why not?
> 
> Are we ready to work on the non-psionic version and the greater opinicus?




Don't see Terran for them. I'd prefer Sylvan, so they can talk to Fey. 

Pranksters might like to hang out together after all.


----------



## Shade (Sep 13, 2010)

Sylvan is a better fit.  We could probably add Terran to the (presumably smarter) greater version.

Speaking of which, how tough are we going to make the greater version?


----------



## Number 6 (Sep 13, 2010)

What about making the Greater Opinicus 11 or 13 Hit Dice?


----------



## Shade (Sep 14, 2010)

13 HD appeals.

Add +4 to all mental ability scores?


----------



## Number 6 (Sep 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> Add +4 to all mental ability scores?



Yeah.
Should it be bigger and/or a little stronger?  Whether it is a size larger or has a higher Strength, what if the Greater Opinicus should have 1d6 for its natural attacks?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 15, 2010)

I'll just point out few quibbles in the power descriptions.

There's an "Etheralness (Su)" typo at the start of Etherealness.

Improved Grab has "To use this ability, an opinicus must hit with *its both* claw attacks". Either make it "both its claw attacks" or "a claw attack". Don't much mind which.

Also, the "Non Psionic Opinicus" has a fair bit of work to do to convert the SLAs to PLAs. Not to mention the "Medium Magical Beast (Psionic)" looks a bit odd - Isn't the whole point is to remove the (Psionic) subtype!



Shade said:


> 13 HD appeals.
> 
> Add +4 to all mental ability scores?




13 Hit Dice is good.

I'd increase some of the physical stats too. 

We don't want to make them better than out Greater Lammasu conversion.

Greater Lammasu: Str 27, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 20, Wis 21, Cha 18

I don't like the idea of them being wiser and tougher than Greater Lammasu, so how about putting a bigger increase in Dexterity and Intelligence and less in Wisdom, while leaving Con unchanged?

Greater Opinicus: Str 17, Dex 19, Con 16, Int 19, Wis 20, Cha 18


----------



## Shade (Sep 15, 2010)

Good catches!  I found a few other problems:  "psionics" rather than "psi-like abilities", spell resistance rather than power resistance...

Updated.

Yeah, let's finish up the non-psionic standard opinicus before continuing with the greater version.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 15, 2010)

Shade said:


> Good catches!  I found a few other problems:  "psionics" rather than "psi-like abilities", spell resistance rather than power resistance...
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Yeah, let's finish up the non-psionic standard opinicus before continuing with the greater version.




Why does the non-psionic standard opinicus have Plane Shift, shouldn't we leave that for the Greater Version?

Anyhow, let's talk SLAs equivalents:

_gust of wind_ for control air?
_animate object_ (only one object up to Medium size) for control object?
_dimensional anchor_ for psionic dimensional anchor?

That leaves the psionic attacks (mind thrust, id insinuation), psionic defences (empty mind, intellect fortress, mental barrier, thought shield) and telekinetic force.

I'm thinking _confusion_ is the best match for id insinuation. Mind thrust doesn't appear to match well with any SRD spells so I'd substitute a targeted direct damage spell. How about _scorching ray_?

Telekinetic force is basically the "sustained force" application of _telekinesis_, so we might as well just use _telekinesis_.

The psionic defenses have no good spell matches, so I think we'd better just pick some defensive abjurations that look nice - _protection from evil_, _sanctuary_, _nondetection_, _death ward_?

Putting that together...

_*Spell-Like Abilities:*_ At will—_gust of wind_, _animate object_ (only one object up to Medium size), _protection from evil_; 3/day—_confusion_, _sanctuary_, _nondetection_, _death ward_, _telekinesis_ (sustained force only), _scorching ray_;  1/day—_dimensional anchor_. Manifester level 7th. The save DCs are  Charisma-based.

Not a bad start I think.


----------



## Shade (Sep 16, 2010)

Not bad at all.  

I blended your list with the existing SLAs and added save DCs.

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Not bad at all.
> 
> I blended your list with the existing SLAs and added save DCs.
> 
> Updated.




You should cut out Plane Shift from the regular Opinicus's SQs, and we might as well put darkvision ahead of etherealness to keep it alphabetical.

*Special Qualities:* Astral projection, darkvision 60 ft., etherealness, low-light vision, spell resistance 17.

Don't much like "Though it appears to be a magical creation of a mixture of several types of creatures, the opinicus is a valid creature that breeds true on its own"

How about changing it to "Though it appears to be a magical hybrid of several types of creatures, the opinicus is a natural creature that breeds true on its own."?

Finally, shall we cut the Greater Opinicus text out and give that creature its own entry? Since we're basically making it up, I think we ought to keep its stats separate.


----------



## Shade (Sep 17, 2010)

Updated Opinicus.

Added Greater Opinicus.

We'll need additional skills, feats, and spells.

Do we want to improve the sun sparkles damage?


----------



## freyar (Sep 17, 2010)

I'd say yes to improving the sun sparkles damage.  Just increase the damage dice a size step or maybe two?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 18, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated Opinicus.




Hold on, the regular opinicus has "Special Attacks: Improved grab, rake *1d4*" but its Combat entry has "Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +7 melee, damage *1d6+1*". Better drop the +1 and make both damage dice match.



Shade said:


> Added Greater Opinicus.
> 
> We'll need additional skills, feats, and spells.
> 
> Do we want to improve the sun sparkles damage?




How about increasing its sun sparkes by 50%? "All evil creatures within 30 feet that meet its gaze take 4d8 points of damage (6d6 for an evil outsider) and become blinded for 1d2 round."


----------



## Cleon (Sep 18, 2010)

Hold on, I've just realized I'd proposed giving the Non-Psionic Opinicus _sanctuary _3/day when it already has _sanctuary _as a cleric spell at a higher DC. Do we want to change that SLA to a different low-level defensive spell, such as _blur_ or _mirror image_?


----------



## freyar (Sep 20, 2010)

Mirror image sounds pretty good for these.


----------



## Shade (Sep 20, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Hold on, the regular opinicus has "Special Attacks: Improved grab, rake *1d4*" but its Combat entry has "Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +7 melee, damage *1d6+1*". Better drop the +1 and make both damage dice match.




It should be 1d4+1, since it has a Str bonus.



Cleon said:


> How about increasing its sun sparkes by 50%? "All evil creatures within 30 feet that meet its gaze take 4d8 points of damage (6d6 for an evil outsider) and become blinded for 1d2 round."




Agreed.



Cleon said:


> Hold on, I've just realized I'd proposed giving the Non-Psionic Opinicus _sanctuary _3/day when it already has _sanctuary _as a cleric spell at a higher DC. Do we want to change that SLA to a different low-level defensive spell, such as _blur_ or _mirror image_?






freyar said:


> Mirror image sounds pretty good for these.




Agreed.

Updated opinicus and greater opinicus.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> It should be 1d4+1, since it has a Str bonus.




True, but rakes normally add half Strength, which is +½ for the regular Opinicus, so you round down to nothing.


----------



## Shade (Sep 21, 2010)

Interesting...it seems so.  Fixed.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Interesting...it seems so.  Fixed.




That it is.

Come to think of it, why is its rake +7 attack instead of +8 like its claws?


----------



## Shade (Sep 22, 2010)

Dunno.  I'll fix that, too.


----------



## freyar (Sep 22, 2010)

So are these done after that?


----------



## Shade (Sep 22, 2010)

The standard opinicus...yes.

The greater version...not sure.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> The standard opinicus...yes.
> 
> The greater version...not sure.




The Opinicus is done, but there's still some work to do on the Greater.


----------



## freyar (Sep 23, 2010)

Ahh, the dreaded spell list.

1st level - remove fear?
2nd level - maybe owl's wisdom?
3rd level - daylight, invisibility purge
4th level - death ward, restoration, giant vermin?

I'll let someone else start on the higher levels.


----------



## Number 6 (Sep 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ahh, the dreaded spell list.
> 
> 1st level - remove fear?
> 2nd level - maybe owl's wisdom?
> ...



What about either _Enthrall, Shatter, or Silence_ for second level?


----------



## Shade (Sep 23, 2010)

It's already got shatter, but silence sounds good (pun intended).  

Updated.

For the rest, how about...

5th—break enchantment, dispel evil, false vision*, true seeing, wall of stone; 
6th—antimagic field*, banishment, heroes' feast; 
7th—control weather, screen*;

Suggested daily uses of dream travel, psionic teleport, and teleport trigger PLAs?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> It's already got shatter, but silence sounds good (pun intended).
> 
> Updated.
> 
> ...




That's funny, I was going to go for exactly the opposite domain spells - _spell resistance_, _mislead_ and _repulsion_.

I like them all except for _control weather_. I would prefer something else, such as _summon monster VII_ or _symbol of stunning_.



Shade said:


> Suggested daily uses of dream travel, psionic teleport, and teleport trigger PLAs?




1/day for _dream travel_ and _teleport trigger_, 3/day for _psionic teleport_?


----------



## Shade (Sep 24, 2010)

Cleon said:


> That's funny, I was going to go for exactly the opposite domain spells - _spell resistance_, _mislead_ and _repulsion_.
> 
> I like them all except for _control weather_. I would prefer something else, such as _summon monster VII_ or _symbol of stunning_.




Great minds think...differently?  

I liked control weather for calling sandstorms...but I'm fine with summon monster VII.



Cleon said:


> 1/day for _dream travel_ and _teleport trigger_, 3/day for _psionic teleport_?




That sounds about right.

Updated.


----------



## freyar (Sep 25, 2010)

We could go with the anti-undead theme and give it Extra Turning and Divine Vengeance as the last feats.  As an alternative Sacred Spell seems appropriate, but we'd need to tweak the spell list.  I don't know what I'd suggest as the last feat in that case, either.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 25, 2010)

Shade said:


> Great minds think...differently?
> 
> I liked control weather for calling sandstorms...but I'm fine with summon monster VII.




I suspected that's what you wanted it for, but how many times would a randomly encountered greater opinicus need to whip up a sandstorm?

A celestial elephant, on the other hand, is always useful. 



Shade said:


> That sounds about right.
> 
> Updated.




Not much left to do. Update the skills, feats, CR and Advancement.

I'd take the Opinicus's skills and add Diplomacy,  Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Hide, Move Silently and Sense Motive, with one "max skill" split between the knowledges.

*Skill Ranks:* Bluff 16, Concentration 16, Diplomacy 16, Hide 16, Intimidate 16, Jump 16, Knowledge (nature) 8, Knowledge (religion) 8, Listen 16, Move Silently 16, Sense Motive 16, Sleight of Hand 16, Spot 16


----------



## freyar (Sep 26, 2010)

Skills look fine to me.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> We could go with the anti-undead theme and give it Extra Turning and Divine Vengeance as the last feats.  As an alternative Sacred Spell seems appropriate, but we'd need to tweak the spell list.  I don't know what I'd suggest as the last feat in that case, either.




I like the Extra Turning and Divine Vengeance. Opinicus are supposedly feared by evil creatures like undead, so we might as well give them a good reason.


----------



## Shade (Sep 27, 2010)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: x

Non-Psionic Greater Opinicus needs counterparts for dream travel and teleport trigger PLAs.


----------



## freyar (Sep 27, 2010)

I guess I'd go with CR 13 from the casting, though it could be as high as CR 14.

14-21 HD (Large), 22-39 HD (Huge)?  Should the Large range for the regular opinicus start at 13HD to match the greater one?  Were we planning on that?


----------



## Shade (Sep 28, 2010)

freyar said:


> 14-21 HD (Large), 22-39 HD (Huge)?  Should the Large range for the regular opinicus start at 13HD to match the greater one?  Were we planning on that?




That's a good question!  I don't believe we were planning ahead for that.


----------



## Number 6 (Sep 28, 2010)

I suspect it makes more sense to adjust the Advancement entry for the standard Opinicus than it does to bump up the Greater Opinicus.

However, why not just bump up the Greater Opinicus?  Bigger is better.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Challenge Rating: x
> 
> ...




A _contingency_ (teleport) and _wind walk_?


----------



## Shade (Sep 29, 2010)

Number 6 said:
			
		

> However, why not just bump up the Greater Opinicus? Bigger is better.




I'm too worn out for that!  

Updated opinicus and greater opinicus.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm too worn out for that!
> 
> Updated opinicus and greater opinicus.




Shouldn't we increase the CL/ML of the Greater Opinicus's SLAs/PLAs?

Also, shouldn't the Greater's rake be 1d6+1?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 29, 2010)

Hold on a second, unless they've gone over to the darkside without me noticing, the turn undead description shouldn't have "An opinicus can make up to 5 *rebuke *attempts per day."

Better change it to "turn attempts".


----------



## Shade (Sep 29, 2010)

Fixed.


----------



## Shade (Oct 1, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Shouldn't we increase the CL/ML of the Greater Opinicus's SLAs/PLAs?




It looks like we already boosted SLAs to match HD.  Boost PLAs to same?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> It looks like we already boosted SLAs to match HD.  Boost PLAs to same?




That'd do.


----------



## Shade (Oct 4, 2010)

Apparently, I'd already augmented all the powers as if it were a 13th-level manifester, and simply forgot to note the change in manifester level.  

Updated.

I also fixed the turn/rebuke mixup on the standard opinicus.

A greater opinicus stands x feet high at the shoulder, weighs x pounds, and has a wingspan of x feet.


----------



## freyar (Oct 6, 2010)

6 ft tall, over 2000 lb, and a wingspan of 20-25 ft?


----------



## Shade (Oct 6, 2010)

That sounds plausible.  

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 7, 2010)

freyar said:


> 6 ft tall, over 2000 lb, and a wingspan of 20-25 ft?




I was thinking 4 to 5 ft at the shoulder and 1000 lbs, with an 18 ft. wingspan. The Greater Lammasu is 5 foot at the shoulder according to their MC entry, and I don't think these should be bigger.

Hmm, looking at the *Greater Lammasu conversion* we didn't increase its size and weight from a regular Lammasu. We still have time to change that to "A greater lammasu is about 10 feet long, stands 5 foot at the shoulder, and weighs about 1000 pounds" if we want.


----------



## Shade (Oct 7, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I was thinking 4 to 5 ft at the shoulder and 1000 lbs, with an 18 ft. wingspan. The Greater Lammasu is 5 foot at the shoulder according to their MC entry, and I don't think these should be bigger.




Sounds good.  Updated.



Cleon said:


> Hmm, looking at the *Greater Lammasu conversion* we didn't increase its size and weight from a regular Lammasu. We still have time to change that to "A greater lammasu is about 10 feet long, stands 5 foot at the shoulder, and weighs about 1000 pounds" if we want.




Good catch.  Consider it done.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 9, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.  Updated.
> 
> Good catch.  Consider it done.




The Greater Opinicus being "over 1,000 pounds" and the Greater Lammasu "about 1000 pounds" seems the wrong way around.

The Greater Lammasu has higher Str, Con and base claw claw damage, so I'd rather it were the heavier with "over 1,000 pounds". This is also suggested by their Monstrous Compendium pictures, were the Lammasu looks a lot stockier than the skinny Opinicus.

If the Lammasu if 5 foot at the shoulder versus the Opinicus at 4.5 it'll probably be heavier anyway, something like 1300-1400 pounds.


----------



## freyar (Oct 10, 2010)

That's fine with me.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 11, 2010)

freyar said:


> That's fine with me.




So if you like "A greater opinicus stands 4 to 5 feet high at the shoulder, weighs about 1,000 pounds, and has a wingspan of 18 feet", which do you prefer for the Greater Lammasu?:

A greater lammasu is about 10 feet long, stands 5 foot at the shoulder, and weighs about 1400 pounds.

A greater lammasu is about 10 feet long, stands 5 foot at the shoulder, and weighs over 1000 pounds.


----------



## Number 6 (Oct 11, 2010)

Cleon said:


> So if you like "A greater opinicus stands 4 to 5 feet high at the shoulder, weighs about 1,000 pounds, and has a wingspan of 18 feet", which do you prefer for the Greater Lammasu?:



Let's go with:
_A greater lammasu is about 10 feet long, stands 5 foot at the shoulder,  and weighs about 1400 pounds._


----------



## Cleon (Oct 13, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> Let's go with:
> _A greater lammasu is about 10 feet long, stands 5 foot at the shoulder,  and weighs about 1400 pounds._




Fine by me.


----------



## freyar (Oct 14, 2010)

Same here.


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## Number 6 (Oct 15, 2010)

Anything else for the Opinicuses?

(Opinici?)


----------



## freyar (Oct 15, 2010)

I think they're done once Shade updates them.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> I think they're done once Shade updates them.




In my opinion the Opinicuses look pretty optimised. 

I'll give them a double check just to be sure.


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2010)

*Crypt Servant *
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tombs
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary or staff
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: None
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: See below
ALIGNMENT: Lawful neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-20
ARMOR CLASS: (missing)
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 6
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4/1-4 or by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: None
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell immunities, immune to piercing weapons
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (4-7 ft. tall)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 650

From the Ruined Kingdoms of Nog and Kadar came rumors, and finally proof, of this special form of undead created to serve their masters for an eternity Since the method for creating them was uncovered, crypt servants have been created for more modern tombs as well.

Crypt servants appear as corpses, usually desiccated, and usually human, though elves, dwarves, and other races are not unknown. They are usually dressed in the livery of their master, the person buried in the tomb they serve. Many, especially those more recently created, bear mamluk tattoos. 

Crypt servants speak the language of their master in dry, slithery voices.

Combat: Though created to serve their master in all ways after death, crypt servants are usually encountered while defending their master’s tomb and possessions from desecration. A solitary crypt servant or the crypt servant nearest the tomb’s entrance acts as a guard. Intruders are challenged verbally by the guard; most require a certain verbal command or a visible sign of the family of their master. Intruders who do not respond properly are attacked. 

Intruders who make it past a guardian crypt servant will not be challenged by other crypt servants unless they disturb the master’s possessions. Anyone who disturbs the body of the master is attacked regardless of any commands or signs they offer to deter the crypt servants.

Crypt servants who engage in combat call to other crypt servants in the tomb. Despite the quiet nature of the creature’s voice, all the crypt servants in a tomb respond in 1d6 rounds. 

Many crypt servants are provided with weapons of some sort; they attack with their fists if they are not. They attack in a mindless fury, concentrating on the last person to cause a disturbance to their master or their master’s possessions. 

Like other undead, crypt servants are immune to charm, hold, and sleep spells.

Habitat/Society: Though it is possible to create a crypt servant from any dead body, volunteers are usually preferred; many ancient crypt servants actually volunteered for their posts, wishing to serve their masters in death as in life. Mamluks sometimes volunteer in modern times. 

Crypt servants care for their deceased master and all the rooms and possessions in the tomb. Small tombs have only one crypt servant, while grand tombs of wealthy and powerful individuals may have several. Crypt servants clean and repair the tombs, polish valuables, light candles, and guard the tomb from intruders. At first, they are fervent in their need to serve, but as years-and centuries-pass, they take longer breaks between activity, sometimes standing motionless for days or even years before becoming active again. 

Because of their similar purpose and method of creation, crypt servants are sometimes associated with the crypt thing (found in the MONSTROUS COMPENDIUM. appendix for the GREYHAWK® campaign setting). The spells to create each are similar and probably have the same roots. If the crypt thing is available for the DM.s campaign, one may be found as the leader of a group of crypt servants. 

Ecology: A crypt servant has no proper ecological niche. It neither adds to or detracts from its environment, except to occasionally eliminate intruders and other vermin.

_Create Crypt Servant_
7th level Wizard or Priest spell (necromantic)
Range: Touch 
Casting Time: 1 turn
Components: V, S 
Area of Effect: 1 corpse
Duration: Permanent 
Saving Throw: None

This spell animates a corpse as a crypt servant. The corpse must be in reasonably good condition; many are prepared in advance of their master.s death. The spell must be cast in the tomb the creature is to serve. A successful dispel magic ends the crypt servant’s animation, and the reverse of the create crypt thing spell, destroy crypt thing, will also annihilate a crypt servant if it fails a saving throw vs. death magic.

Originally appeared in City of Delights (1993).


----------



## Cleon (Oct 20, 2010)

I've pulled out my *City of Delights* boxed set and Crypt Servants have Armor Class 5.

These seem pretty straight forward. 

There's no mention of turning - are these things immune to being turned?

Maybe they're Deathless, not Undead?

Base it on a Ghast, boost the HD, halve the Int and Cha, drop the Dex, switch claws for slams and drop the bite attack.

*Crypt Servant*
 Medium Undead [or Deathless]

  Hit Dice: 6d12 (39 hp)
  Initiative: +1
  Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
  Armor Class: 15 (+1 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14
  Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+6
  Attack: Slam +6 melee (1d4+3)
  Full Attack: 2 slams +6 melee (1d4+3)
  Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
  Special Attacks: —
  Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., immunity to turning?, undead traits
  Saves: Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +6
  Abilities: Str 17, Dex 13, Con —, Int 6, Wis 14, Cha 8
  Skills: 18
  Feats: 3
  Environment: Underground (tombs and crypts)
Organization: ?
  Challenge Rating: ?
  Treasure: None?
  Alignment: Always lawful neutral
Advancement: 7-12 HD (Medium)
  Level Adjustment: —


----------



## Shade (Oct 20, 2010)

No to deathless.

Those stats may be a bit high.  Crypt things occasionally act as their leaders and their stats are only Str 10, Dex 16, Con -, Int 11, Wis 15, Cha 13.  With only 1-4 damage, it doesn't really imply high Str.

A crypt thing has this: 

Turn Resistance (Ex): While within 50 feet of the location or object it guards, a crypt thing is treated as an undead with 4 more Hit Dice than it actually has for the purpose of turn, rebuke, command, or bolster attempts.

We could use something like that, since the text mentions they are tied to crypt things.

A crypt thing also has +4 turn resistance.  Maybe +2 for these things?


----------



## Number 6 (Oct 20, 2010)

The one thing that makes me think Deathless is the fact that targets may willingly jump in the saddle.  That might be a social issue and not related to the end result in any way.

Is that worth looking at?


----------



## Shade (Oct 20, 2010)

Lichdom (and few other undead types) are also voluntarily.

I tend to prefer to avoid deathless unless something clearly can't be undead because 1) it isn't core/in the SRD and 2) the CC database doesn't have a Deathless entry, so all the deathless text has to be repeated within the creature's entry.


----------



## Number 6 (Oct 21, 2010)

However, the willingness to become a lich is not a sacrifice for service, more suicide for the gaining of massive power.  The Crypt Servant volunteers seem more like the Egyptian slaves who willingly die and get buried with their king to serve in eternity.

Regardless, your point about repeating the Deathless text (and that it isn't a core Creature Type) is a pretty convincing reason not to make these guys Deathless.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> No to deathless.




I don't mind them being Neutral Undead, just threw out Deathless as a possibility.



Shade said:


> Those stats may be a bit high.  Crypt things occasionally act as their leaders and their stats are only Str 10, Dex 16, Con -, Int 11, Wis 15, Cha 13.  With only 1-4 damage, it doesn't really imply high Str.




I just based them on a ghast's stats. An AD&D ghast does 1-4 damage with its hands too.

I think the reason the Crypt Things are leaders is not because they're stronger but because they're smarter. These servants are pretty dumb, with Int 6 and Cha 8 they need someone_*thing*_ with some brains to tell them what to do.

Strength 17 doesn't seem too high for a 6 Hit Dice undead that only has physical attacks. It's the same Str modifier as a Ghast or Vampire Spawn, and they're hardly high in the undead pecking order and have fewer HD than the servant.

I'd be willing to consider reducing the Wisdom to 12. I left in the ghast's Wis 14 because I thought that they'd need keen senses since they act as tomb guards and lookouts.



Shade said:


> A crypt thing has this:
> 
> Turn Resistance (Ex): While within 50 feet of the location or object it guards, a crypt thing is treated as an undead with 4 more Hit Dice than it actually has for the purpose of turn, rebuke, command, or bolster attempts.
> 
> ...




+2 turn resistance with a +4 bonus when within their crypt? That's fine by me.

Actually, the above is rather confusing - is the Crypt Thing +4 turn resistance in its crypt, or +4 outside its crypt and +8 inside? Inquiring minds would like to know.


----------



## freyar (Oct 25, 2010)

Well, it does seem to me that these should be stronger than crypt things, since the crypt thing has that whole teleport other schtick.  But if Str 17 is too much, how about 15?  Incidentally, the ToH/CC version of the crypt thing has Str 12, so the increased Str is less of a stretch.


----------



## Shade (Oct 25, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Strength 17 doesn't seem too high for a 6 Hit Dice undead that only has physical attacks. It's the same Str modifier as a Ghast or Vampire Spawn, and they're hardly high in the undead pecking order and have fewer HD than the servant.
> 
> I'd be willing to consider reducing the Wisdom to 12. I left in the ghast's Wis 14 because I thought that they'd need keen senses since they act as tomb guards and lookouts.






freyar said:


> Well, it does seem to me that these should be stronger than crypt things, since the crypt thing has that whole teleport other schtick.  But if Str 17 is too much, how about 15?  Incidentally, the ToH/CC version of the crypt thing has Str 12, so the increased Str is less of a stretch.




You guys have convinced me to keep the Str at 17.  Let's drop the Wis to 13, slightly less than their "betters".  We can always give 'em a racial bonus on Listen and/or Spot checks to keep 'em good guardians.



Cleon said:


> +2 turn resistance with a +4 bonus when within their crypt? That's fine by me.
> 
> Actually, the above is rather confusing - is the Crypt Thing +4 turn resistance in its crypt, or +4 outside its crypt and +8 inside? Inquiring minds would like to know.




I take it to be +8, but I could be wrong.  We can clarify that in our own writeup.

Updated.

Skills: 18
Listen 9, Spot 9?

Feats: 3



> immune to piercing weapons




DR 5/bludgeoning or slashing?



> Crypt servants who engage in combat call to other crypt servants in the tomb. Despite the quiet nature of the creature’s voice, all the crypt servants in a tomb respond in 1d6 rounds.




Special ability or flavor text?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> You guys have convinced me to keep the Str at 17.  Let's drop the Wis to 13, slightly less than their "betters".  We can always give 'em a racial bonus on Listen and/or Spot checks to keep 'em good guardians.




Strength 17 and Wisdom 13 are fine by me.

I'd rather give them plain old Alertness than a racial bonus though.



Shade said:


> I take it to be +8, but I could be wrong.  We can clarify that in our own writeup.




Since the original's were impossible to turn I fancied another 4 levels, for +6 turn resistance in total.



Shade said:


> Skills: 18
> Listen 9, Spot 9?
> 
> Feats: 3




The skills are fine.

Alertness, Blind-Fight, Reckless Offense for the feats?

I fancied Reckless Offense because "they attack in a mindless fury", but we could use Weapon Focus (slam) if you don't like it.



Shade said:


> DR 5/bludgeoning or slashing?




I'd go for DR 10, since the original version was immune to piercing. DR5 isn't much better than a regular skeleton.



Shade said:


> > Crypt servants who engage in combat call to other crypt servants in the  tomb. Despite the quiet nature of the creature’s voice, all the crypt  servants in a tomb respond in 1d6 rounds.
> 
> 
> 
> Special ability or flavor text?




Special Ability. Something like:

*Call of the Crypt (Su):* As a swift action, a crypt servant can whisper a message to all other crypt servants in the tomb, who will respond to the alarm within a few rounds. This functions like the _whispering wind_ spell.


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## freyar (Oct 26, 2010)

This is looking pretty good.  DR 10 feels a bit high for the CR, but I'll go with it since it's just bludgeoning or slashing.  I like those feats.


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## Shade (Oct 26, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Special Ability. Something like:
> 
> *Call of the Crypt (Su):* As a swift action, a crypt servant can whisper a message to all other crypt servants in the tomb, who will respond to the alarm within a few rounds. This functions like the _whispering wind_ spell.




I like it, but think we need to quantify the response time.  Maybe 1d4+1 rounds?

All the rest looks good.

Updated.

Organization: Solitary, guard detail (2-12), or crypt corps (4-20 plus 1 crypt thing)?

Challenge Rating: 3? (Same as equal HD crypt thing)

Treasure: None?  Or factor in the value of what they are guarding?

A crypt servant is about the height and weight of a human?

Crypt servants speak any languages they knew in life (usually Common)?


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 27, 2010)

Treasure: factor in what they are guarding.


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## Cleon (Oct 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> I like it, but think we need to quantify the response time.  Maybe 1d4+1 rounds?




What about the original's 1d6 rounds?



Shade said:


> Organization: Solitary, guard detail (2-12), or crypt corps (4-20 plus 1 crypt thing)?




I'd prefer something a bit less military sounding, such as:

*Organization:* Solitary, watch detail (2-8), or retinue (5-20 plus 1 crypt thing)



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 3? (Same as equal HD crypt thing)Treasure: None?  Or factor in the value of what they are guarding?




Challenge Rating 3 and no treasure of their own, but may be guarding their master's.



Shade said:


> A crypt servant is about the height and weight of a human?
> 
> Crypt servants speak any languages they knew in life (usually Common)?




Since they're dessicated, I'd say half their living weight, like the SRD Mummy.

Languages as in life is fine.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2010)

Updated.

Ready to convert this?



> Create Crypt Servant
> 7th level Wizard or Priest spell (necromantic)
> Range: Touch
> Casting Time: 1 turn
> ...


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## Cleon (Oct 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Ready to convert this?




We could, but I was expecting you to go for something simpler:

A crypt servant can be created with a _create undead_ spell of caster level 13th or higher. The spell must be cast within the tomb where the crypt servant is to serve.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2010)

Simpler?  _Moi_?  

Yeah, that should suffice.  Updated.



> Many crypt servants are provided with weapons of some sort; they attack with their fists if they are not.




Suggested sample weapon(s) for the attack lines?   Maybe a scimitar and shortbow?


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## Cleon (Oct 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> Simpler?  _Moi_?
> 
> Yeah, that should suffice.  Updated.
> 
> Suggested sample weapon(s) for the attack lines?   Maybe a scimitar and shortbow?




I prefer something that's good 2-handed, like a falchion, heavy mace or greataxe.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2010)

Falchion it is!

Shortbow OK for a ranged weapon?


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## Cleon (Oct 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Falchion it is!
> 
> Shortbow OK for a ranged weapon?




I'd prefer a throwing weapon like a light hammer or javelin.

I imagine a regular bow would eventually become useless in a tomb, either drying out or rotting away.


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## Shade (Nov 1, 2010)

Updated.  Finished?


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## Cleon (Nov 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




Nothing wrong with it that I can find.


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2010)

*Tatalla* 
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Urban
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Guild
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: K; C
ALIGNMENT: Lawful evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 2+2
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-3/1-3 or by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poison, backstab
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Thieving skills
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S (just over 2 ft. tall)
MORALE: Unsteady (5-7)
XP VALUE: 650, Guildmaster 975

The tatalla,”the eye,” is a malevolent little creature used as a spy or as a stealthy assassin. It is skinny, almost-emaciated, about two feet tall, and basically humanoid. The tatalla’s name comes from its single, very large, protruding eye.

Many tatalla have tusks and large ears, and they greatly resemble miniaturized versions of ogre giants. Learned people suspect some sort of relationship between the two races, though nothing has been proven for certain.

Tatalla speak Midani with a guttural intonation, perverting the natural beauty of the language. They also know the languages of similar creatures, such as imps and quasits, and they can communicate with bats and rats.

These creatures have a guild structure that assigns them to specific tasks, ranging from spying to stealing to assassination.

Combat: All tatalla have thieving abilities as follows: PP 50%; OL 42%; F/RT 40%; MS 50%; HS 51%; DN 20%; CW 90%; backstab for triple damage. When assigned to kill someone, the tatalla usually attempts to sneak into that individual’s home. Once the tatalla has discovered the desired victim, it bites him and scurries away.

The bite wakes any person who rolls his Wisdom score or lower on 1d20; the bite mark appears to be that of a large spider. One bite causes nausea, a second bite increases nausea and causes weakness and a loss of Dexterity (no Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and -2 penalty to all attack rolls). A third bite within as many days kills the victim in 1d4 rounds, unless the victim rolls a successful saving throw vs. poison. Each bite beyond the third requires another saving throw, with a cumulative -2 penalty to the roll. The tatalla visits its victim’s residence for as many consecutive days as necessary, trailing the victim if it tries to escape by changing resting places.

Generally, tatalla try to avoid direct combat, preferring to accomplish their tasks without being noticed. Many run when threatened. If cornered, or if assigned to kill someone, however, they fight very ferociously. Each claw causes 1-3 points of damage. Many tatalla carry a pair of small weapons, such as a pair of jambiya or razors; they can use two such weapons simultaneously with no penalties.

If forced to fight, the tatalla can forego its normal two attacks, attempting to use its poisonous bite instead. It attacks using its regular THAC0, and the effects of the bites are as given above. 

A tatalla can also summon 1d100 normal bats or rats for aid. These arrive in 1d4 rounds. While the tatalla waits for aid, it scurries about trying to hide from and dodge its attackers. The rats or bats leave when the tatalla dies or releases them.

Habitat/Society: Tatalla reside only in urban areas, where their services are often desired, and where they are never far from vermin to aid them in their tasks. On rare occasions, they can track a victim across great tracts of land, traveling at night under the cover of darkness. They have an unerring tracking sense once they have been assigned to a victim. Though the victim may elude the tatalla for a time, the tenacious creature eventually catches up.

Tatalla have a guild organization, much like the hierarchy found in a thieves. guild or a society of holy slayers. A guild typically has 4d20 members. One tatalla is the guild master and has approval over all contracts entered into by the guild, as well as the ability to assign any of the guild members to a given task. The guildmaster has 3+3 Hit Dice and a THAC0 of 17, and it uses any magical items the guild may have in its treasury.

A tatalla guild often cooperates with other illicit societies in the same city, particularly burglars and holy slayers. They demand payment in advance, and they never break a contract. Payment ranges from a few pieces of silver for a surveillance job, to several pieces of gold or a magical item for an assassination. If an individual or group breaks a contract with the tatalla guild, they quickly find themselves in a blood feud unless amends are made.

Ecology: Tatalla are scavengers, living off the remains of society. They steal what they need and give nothing back to society or to their environment.

Originally appeared in City of Delights (1993).


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## Cleon (Nov 3, 2010)

Well if they're related to Ogre Magi we'd better make them Tiny Giants. 

More seriously I'm thinking Tiny Monstrous Humanoid.

Let's see, special poison bite.

Hefty racial bonuses on thief skills.

Speaks Infernal. Has speak with animals that works on bats and rats.

Some ability to command bat and rats, individually or in swarms (like a Vampire?)


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## Shade (Nov 5, 2010)

That all sounds about right.

Ogre Giant:  Str 33, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7

Downsized to Tiny:  Str 9, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7

Int needs to go up to at least 8.

Str 9, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 7 look OK?


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Nov 5, 2010)

It should also get summon swarm as an SLA.


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## Cleon (Nov 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> That all sounds about right.
> 
> Ogre Giant:  Str 33, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7
> 
> ...




I'd set the Intelligence to 10, but apart from that it looks fine.

The original's AC 4 suggests they need either +2 NA or leather armour.


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## freyar (Nov 8, 2010)

I like these!

Definitely summon swarm, and I can go with those stats (like Cleon, I prefer Int 10).

Definitely sneak attack and a good smattering of rogue-like skills.  Maybe also trapfinding?  Honestly, I could see going for some of the higher-level rogue (or assassin) class features if they aren't too overpowered.

The bite poison could just be sickness/nausea and Dex damage, but that doesn't mesh so well with death after a few bites.  Add a Con damage rider, also?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 8, 2010)

freyar said:


> I like these!
> 
> Definitely summon swarm, and I can go with those stats (like Cleon, I prefer Int 10).
> 
> Definitely sneak attack and a good smattering of rogue-like skills.  Maybe also trapfinding?  Honestly, I could see going for some of the higher-level rogue (or assassin) class features if they aren't too overpowered.




Yes, *Sneak Attack* is the obvious corollary to the original's back-stab.

I was thinking *Trapfinding*, *Trap Sense* (+2?), *Evasion*, *Improved Uncanny Dodge*, and *Hide in Plain Sight*.

As for Assassin special abilities, I wouldn't give it Death Attack since that seems obviate its preferred "slow poison bite" method of killing its targets.

I'd be fine with *Poison Use* though.



freyar said:


> The bite poison could just be sickness/nausea and Dex damage, but that doesn't mesh so well with death after a few bites.  Add a Con damage rider, also?




That's why I said "special poison bite" earlier. 

Something like:

*Poison (Ex):* A tartalla's bite injects a special poison that has a cumulative effect upon its victims.

The first bite does *1d4?* minutes of sickness as its primary damage, and *1d4?* rounds of nausea plus *1d4?* days of sickness as its secondary effect.

If a tartalla bites a victim that is already sickened by its poison, the poison does *1d3?* days of sickness plus *1d6?* Strength damage as its primary damage, and *1d4?* rounds of nausea plus *1d3?* days of sickness plus *1d6?* Dexterity damage as its secondary effect.

If a tartalla bites a victim that is already affected by its poison's ability damage, the poison does *1d3?* days of sickness plus *1d6?* Strength damage plus *1d6?* Constitution damage as its primary damage, and *1d4?* rounds of nausea plus *1d3?* days of sickness plus *1d6?* Dexterity damage plus *2d6?* Constitution damage as its secondary effect.


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## Shade (Nov 8, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I renamed the unusual poison to "venom", since it doesn't strictly follow normal poison rules (and, with poison use, to differentiate it on the attack lines).


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## freyar (Nov 10, 2010)

The venom seems nice but requires a lot of bookkeeping.  Could we simplify it somehow by turning some aspects of it into a disease maybe?


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## Cleon (Nov 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I renamed the unusual poison to "venom", since it doesn't strictly follow normal poison rules (and, with poison use, to differentiate it on the attack lines).




Fine by me, but just to be on the safe side you'd better add "Any spells or abilities that resist poison will affect a tartalla's venom, such as _neutralize poison_ or a dwarf's racial bonus on saves versus poison."

Do the damages and durations in my rough draft look OK to you?


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2010)

freyar said:


> The venom seems nice but requires a lot of bookkeeping.  Could we simplify it somehow by turning some aspects of it into a disease maybe?




I'm fine with simplifying it a bit, but disease doesn't feel right.



Cleon said:


> Fine by me, but just to be on the safe side you'd better add "Any spells or abilities that resist poison will affect a tartalla's venom, such as _neutralize poison_ or a dwarf's racial bonus on saves versus poison."




Good suggestion.


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## Cleon (Nov 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm fine with simplifying it a bit, but disease doesn't feel right.




Don't like disease for it. I wondered about cutting some of the types of damage from the third+ bites (e.g. just sickness and Con damage), but that didn't feel quite right.


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## freyar (Nov 15, 2010)

Disease was a bit of grasping at straws, I admit.  I guess what I'd like is that a first bite grants some kind of condition, and anyone suffering from the condition when bitten takes additional damage.  Sickness seems to work for the first to second bites, but then things start to break down a bit with the third bite.


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2010)

Attempting to rework a bit...

Venom (Ex):  A tatalla's bite injects a toxin that causes weakness and illness, and eventually, death.   A victim of a tatalla's bite must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or become sickened for 1d4 minutes.   A victim who is already sickened (such as from a previous bite) instead suffers 1d6 points of Strength damage and must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or become nauseated for 1d4 rounds.  After the nausea passes, it must then succeed on another DC X Fortitude save or become sickened for 1d3 days.  A victim who is already nauseated (such as from previous bites) suffers 1d6 points of Constitution damage and must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or become sickend for an additional 1d3 days.  The save DCs are Constitution-based.  Each bite after the first increases the save DC by +1.  A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from the sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws.


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## freyar (Nov 17, 2010)

That could work, though we're still tracking bites on the DC.  How abot this?

Venom (Ex): A tatalla's bite injects a toxin that causes weakness and illness, and eventually, death. A victim of a tatalla's bite must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or become sickened for 1d4 minutes. A victim who is already sickened (such as from a previous bite) instead suffers 1d6 points of Strength damage and must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or become nauseated for 1d4 rounds. After the nausea passes, it must then succeed on another DC X Fortitude save or become sickened for 1d3 days. A victim who is already nauseated (such as from previous bites) suffers 1d6 points of Constitution damage and must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or become sickend for an additional 1d3 days. The save DCs are Constitution-based. Recall that sickened creatures take a -2 penalty to saving throws; nauseated creatures take a -4 circumstance penalty to saves against tatalla venom.  A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from the sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws.


Some thoughts: not sure if the Con damage is strong enough, and I'd consider swapping the Str damage for Dex like in the original.


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2010)

Your revision appeals.



freyar said:


> Some thoughts: not sure if the Con damage is strong enough, and I'd consider swapping the Str damage for Dex like in the original.




I'm fine with all that.  Suggested Con damage boost?


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## freyar (Nov 18, 2010)

2d6 Con maybe?  Or 2d4 if that seems too much.

If you agree on Dex vs Str, I'd just like to know what Cleon thinks.


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2010)

freyar said:


> 2d6 Con maybe?  Or 2d4 if that seems too much.
> 
> If you agree on Dex vs Str, I'd just like to know what Cleon thinks.




I'm fine with either amount, Dex or Str, and finding out what Cleon thinks.


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## Cleon (Nov 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> That could work, though we're still tracking bites on the DC.  How abot this?
> 
> Venom (Ex): A tatalla's bite injects a toxin that causes weakness and illness, and eventually, death. A victim of a tatalla's bite must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or become sickened for 1d4 minutes. A victim who is already sickened (such as from a previous bite) instead suffers 1d6 points of Strength damage and must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or become nauseated for 1d4 rounds. After the nausea passes, it must then succeed on another DC X Fortitude save or become sickened for 1d3 days. A victim who is already nauseated (such as from previous bites) suffers 1d6 points of Constitution damage and must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or become sickend for an additional 1d3 days. The save DCs are Constitution-based. Recall that sickened creatures take a -2 penalty to saving throws; nauseated creatures take a -4 circumstance penalty to saves against tatalla venom.  A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from the sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws.
> 
> Some thoughts: not sure if the Con damage is strong enough, and I'd consider swapping the Str damage for Dex like in the original.




I don't mind the basic approach, but it will only do Con damage if its victim has been given a "nausea bite" within the last 1d4 rounds, and its description clearly has it working at least 24 hours later.

For that matter, its first bite's sickness duration is too short for it to do the second bite the next night.

I would change it to a Strength damage prerequisite. Indeed, that's the reason I used ability damage as the third bite's prereq in my earlier draft.

I'd rather it did more than 2d6 Con damage, since the third bite's supposed to often be fatal. Maybe 2d8? Actually, I prefer the original 1d6 plus 2d6 approach.

I also think it's easier to follow if we break each bite's effects into a separate paragraph.

Finally, I'd prefer it if the cumulative effects only worked with its own venom, e.g. "A victim who is already sickened by tartalla venom" instead of "A victim who is already sickened (such as from a previous bite)". 

How about:

*Venom (Ex):* A tatalla's bite injects a toxin that causes weakness, illness, and, eventually, death. A _delay poison_  or _neutralize poison_ spell will counter the venom's effects on a bitten creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and  creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving  throws.

A victim of a tatalla's bite becomes sickened for 1d4 rounds, after the sickness passes it must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or become  sickened for 1d2 days.

A  victim who is already sickened by a previous tatalla bite instead  suffers 1d6 points of Strength damage and must succeed on a DC X  Fortitude save or become nauseated for 1d4 rounds. After the nausea  passes, it must then succeed on another DC X Fortitude save or become  sickened for 1d3 days.

A victim who is affected by Strength damage from a previous bite suffers 1d6 Constitution damage and must  succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or  take 2d6 additional points of Constitution damage and become sickened for an additional 1d3  days.

The save DCs are Constitution-based. Recall that sickened  creatures take a -2 penalty to saving throws; nauseated creatures take a  -4 circumstance penalty to saves against tatalla venom.


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## freyar (Nov 22, 2010)

The problem is changing the types of conditions we're tracking from bite to bite.  It just feels too much bookkeeping.  And, besides, might not being sick from some other disease make you more vulnerable to the venom?

As for the other version, just imagine the tatalla giving 2 bites per night.


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## Shade (Nov 22, 2010)

I'm with freyar on this one.  A direct translation just doesn't work well here.   You can save it for the Cleon Special TM.


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## Cleon (Nov 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> The problem is changing the types of conditions we're tracking from bite to bite.  It just feels too much bookkeeping.  And, besides, might not being sick from some other disease make you more vulnerable to the venom?
> 
> As for the other version, just imagine the tatalla giving 2 bites per night.




Well I'd accept the sickness interchangeability.

As for imagining 2 bites per night, the original clearly says they favour 1 bite per night. That could even be read as meaning they can only use one "dose" of venom per night.

Also, the Constitution damage prereq still needs fixing. Its poison does Con damage when the victim is _*nauseated*_, which only lasts for 1d4 rounds. It really has to be something else, such as my proposed Str damage, for the tatalla to give a potentially fatal bite the next night.


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## freyar (Nov 22, 2010)

You know, I'm getting what I think is an acceptable idea as a compromise, but it's going to take me a little to figure it out.  I'll try to get back to this tonight, since I need to go make dinner now.


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## Cleon (Nov 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> You know, I'm getting what I think is an acceptable idea as a compromise, but it's going to take me a little to figure it out.  I'll try to get back to this tonight, since I need to go make dinner now.




I don't mind waiting.


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## Shade (Nov 23, 2010)

Nor I.  So what are we having for dinner?


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## freyar (Nov 23, 2010)

Last night, baked pasta casserole.  Tonight, dahl makhni. 

See what you think, then we can settle on Str/Dex and any numbers.

Venom (Ex): A tatalla's bite injects a toxin that causes weakness and illness, and eventually, death. A victim of a tatalla's bite must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or become sickened for 4d12 hours. A victim who is already sickened (such as from a previous bite) instead suffers 1d6 points of Strength damage and must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or become nauseated for 1d4 rounds. After the nausea passes, it must then succeed on another DC X Fortitude save or contract tatalla wasting (see below). A victim who already suffers from tatalla wasting takes 2d6 points of Constitution damage as well as the penalties for being sickened. The save DCs are Constitution-based. Recall that sickened creatures have a -2 penalty on all saves.  A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from the sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws.

Tatalla wasting (Ex): disease - bite, Fortitude DC X, incubation period 1 minute; damage sickened for 1 day and an additional -2 circumstance penalty on saves against tatalla venom.  The save DC is Constitution-based.  While delay poison and neutralize poison may cure tatalla wasting just as remove disease and similar magic.


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## Cleon (Nov 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> Last night, baked pasta casserole.  Tonight, dahl makhni.
> 
> See what you think, then we can settle on Str/Dex and any numbers.
> 
> ...




That seems at least as complicated as some of the previous proposals.

I prefer an "all poison" approach, but if Shade's OK with it I guess I can go along with poison+disease. It's not that different from a "Con damage if weakened" mechanic.

Does the resistance to poison bonus apply to saves against the Tatalla wasting disease too? If so, I think you should make that explicit at the end of the first paragraph.

Also, does it need the "While" in "While delay poison and neutralize poison".

One advantage is an incubation period give a reason for the "bite and come back" approach - they have to wait for the wasting to kick in before the venom does lethal damage.

Actually, I quite like that side-effect of an incubation time, could we could increase the incubation period to an hour so it's not something that's useful in a protracted fight but is a "come back later" kind of threat?

Its making me warm towards this poison+disease approach...


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## freyar (Nov 24, 2010)

No, not so much less complicated, though imagine that a victim gets Str damage from a dose of venom then from, say, some kind of undead, then gets some of it restored.  In the previous version, how do you know if it's vulnerable to Con damage from the tatalla venom?  

Do you prefer Dex vs Str damage?

I'll add a longer incubation period and make the disease easier to cure (so that the tatalla can't count on waiting extra days to finish the job).  Editing again:

Venom (Ex): A tatalla's bite injects a toxin that causes weakness and illness, and eventually, death. A victim of a tatalla's bite must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or become sickened for 4d12 hours. A victim who is already sickened (such as from a previous bite) instead suffers 1d6 points of Strength damage and must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or become nauseated for 1d4 rounds. After the nausea passes, it must then succeed on another DC X Fortitude save or contract tatalla wasting (see below). A victim who already suffers from tatalla wasting takes 2d6 points of Constitution damage as well as the penalties for being sickened. The save DCs are Constitution-based. Recall that sickened creatures have a -2 penalty on all saves. A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from the sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws.

Tatalla wasting (Ex): disease - bite, Fortitude DC X, incubation period 2 hours; damage sickened for 1 day, an additional -2 circumstance penalty on saves against tatalla venom, and vulnerability to Con damage from tatalla venom. The save DC is Constitution-based.  Delay poison and neutralize poison may cure tatalla wasting just as remove disease and similar magic would.  Tatalla wasting is cured by a single save against its damage.


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## Cleon (Nov 25, 2010)

freyar said:


> No, not so much less complicated, though imagine that a victim gets Str damage from a dose of venom then from, say, some kind of undead, then gets some of it restored.  In the previous version, how do you know if it's vulnerable to Con damage from the tatalla venom?




What, in such cases I'd say the restoration would be equally divided among the damage, so it would only stop being vulnerable when all the Str damage is restored. (e.g if it took 3 Str damage from a Tatalla bite and 5 Str damage from a Shadow, each point of damage restored would be 3/8th Tatalla).

Still, I'm starting to warm to a poison plus disease approach, so we might not have to worry about that.



freyar said:


> Do you prefer Dex vs Str damage?




I'd prefer Dex *and* Str, but if forced to choose between them I would pick Str, since it seems a slightly better partner to the Con damage it does later.



freyar said:


> I'll add a longer incubation period and make the disease easier to cure (so that the tatalla can't count on waiting extra days to finish the job).  Editing again:
> 
> Venom (Ex): A tatalla's bite injects a toxin that causes weakness and illness, and eventually, death. A victim of a tatalla's bite must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or become sickened for 4d12 hours. A victim who is already sickened (such as from a previous bite) instead suffers 1d6 points of Strength damage and must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or become nauseated for 1d4 rounds. After the nausea passes, it must then succeed on another DC X Fortitude save or contract tatalla wasting (see below). A victim who already suffers from tatalla wasting takes 2d6 points of Constitution damage as well as the penalties for being sickened. The save DCs are Constitution-based. Recall that sickened creatures have a -2 penalty on all saves. A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from the sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws.
> 
> Tatalla wasting (Ex): disease - bite, Fortitude DC X, incubation period 2 hours; damage sickened for 1 day, an additional -2 circumstance penalty on saves against tatalla venom, and vulnerability to Con damage from tatalla venom. The save DC is Constitution-based.  Delay poison and neutralize poison may cure tatalla wasting just as remove disease and similar magic would.  Tatalla wasting is cured by a single save against its damage.




That looks good. I'd have been satisfied with 1 hour for the duration. Still would like a poison resistance bonus in the Tatalla Wasting:

Oh, and I would rather give it a racial bonus on the DCs (probably +2 but I'd consider +4) and drop the "an additional -2 circumstance penalty  on saves against tatalla venom" bit from the Tatalla Wasting.

e.g.:

* Venom (Ex):* A tatalla's bite injects a toxin that causes weakness and  illness, and eventually, death. A victim of a tatalla's bite must  succeed on a DC 13 Fortitude save or become sickened for 4d12 hours. A  victim who is already sickened (such as from a previous bite) instead  suffers 1d6 points of Strength damage and must succeed on a DC 13  Fortitude save or become nauseated for 1d4 rounds. After the nausea  passes, it must then succeed on another DC 13 Fortitude save or contract  tatalla wasting (see below). A victim who already suffers from tatalla  wasting takes 2d6 points of Constitution damage as well as the penalties  for being sickened. The save DCs are Constitution-based and include a +2 racial bonus. Recall that  sickened creatures have a -2 penalty on all saves. A _delay poison_ or  _neutralize poison_ spell removes the effect from the sickened creature.  Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures  resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws.

_Tatalla wasting (Ex):_ disease - bite, Fortitude DC 13, incubation period 2  hours; damage sickened for 1 day and vulnerability to Con damage from  tatalla venom. The save DC is Constitution-based. Tatalla wasting is cured by a single save against  its damage. Heal checks, remove disease and similar magic can be used to cure tatalla wasting normally, while a _delay poison_ or  _neutralize poison_ spell affects tatalla wasting as if it were poison. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected by tatalla wasting, and creatures with a bonus on saves versus poison can apply this bonus on their saving throws against this disease.


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## freyar (Nov 26, 2010)

I can go with that!  If you want to switch to 1d3 Dex and 1d3 Str, that would be ok, too.


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## Cleon (Nov 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> I can go with that!  If you want to switch to 1d3 Dex and 1d3 Str, that would be ok, too.




I'd prefer 1d4 or 1d6 for the Str and Dex damage.


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## Shade (Nov 29, 2010)

If we go with both Dex and Str, I'd like to keep it at 1d3.  If just one, I'm willing to go up to 1d6.  Of the two, I prefer Str.


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## freyar (Nov 29, 2010)

I'm with Shade on the amounts, I think.  It shouldn't be overdone; these aren't that tough critters.


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2010)

So, Cleon...1d3 both, or 1d6 Str only?


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> So, Cleon...1d3 both, or 1d6 Str only?




It doesn't make a great deal of difference to me.

Please bear with me while I consult my high tech random number generator...

*flip*

The fates say 1d6 Str.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2010)

Updated.

Moving on (finally!)...

1d3 base damage for the bite?



> All tatalla have thieving abilities as follows: PP 50%; OL 42%; F/RT 40%; MS 50%; HS 51%; DN 20%; CW 90%;




Skills: 10 ranks
Skills: A tatalla has a +4 racial bonus on Listen checks, a +8 racial bonus on Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock and Sleight of Hand checks, and a +12 racial bonus on Climb checks.

Would a Climb speed be preferable to the +12 racial bonus, considering they climb so well?


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Moving on (finally!)...
> 
> 1d3 base damage for the bite?




That'd do.



Shade said:


> Skills: 10 ranks
> Skills: A tatalla has a +4 racial bonus on Listen checks, a +8 racial bonus on Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock and Sleight of Hand checks, and a +12 racial bonus on Climb checks.




+8 in Disable Device, Open Lock and Sleight of Hand seems a bit high. Maybe cut it to +4?

2 ranks in Listen, Disable Device, Open Lock, Tumble, Sleight of Hand, and Spot?

That reminds me, didn't we talk about a racial bonus in Tumble? +4?



Shade said:


> Would a Climb speed be preferable to the +12 racial bonus, considering they climb so well?




Yes, a climb speed does make sense (with the standard +8 racial bonus plus "can use Dex instead of Str"), and I'd also be game for a a Spider Climbing or Wall Crawling SQ.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2010)

Updated.

I'm not sure about the wallcrawling, as they're already rather feature-rich for their power level.

Environment: Any urban?

Organization: Solitary or guild (2-4)?

Challenge Rating: 2?  They are far better than a 1st-level PC rogue.

Treasure: Standard?

Alignment: Usually lawful evil?

Advancement: By character class (favored class: rogue)?

Level Adjustment:  By the _Savage Species_ method, they seem about +6 or +7


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## freyar (Dec 2, 2010)

I like how it looks, and I like all your suggestions there.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2010)

Updated.

A tatalla stands just over 2 feet tall and weighs x pounds.



> Tatalla speak Midani with a guttural intonation, perverting the natural beauty of the language. They also know the languages of similar creatures, such as imps and quasits, and they can communicate with bats and rats.




Tatalla speak Abyssal, Common, and Infernal?



> A tatalla can also summon 1d100 normal bats or rats for aid. These arrive in 1d4 rounds. While the tatalla waits for aid, it scurries about trying to hide from and dodge its attackers. The rats or bats leave when the tatalla dies or releases them.




The entry is missing this.  Did we decide upon summon swarm as an SLA or a summon ability like many demons and devils?



> Tatalla reside only in urban areas, where their services are often desired, and where they are never far from vermin to aid them in their tasks. On rare occasions, they can track a victim across great tracts of land, traveling at night under the cover of darkness. They have an unerring tracking sense once they have been assigned to a victim. Though the victim may elude the tatalla for a time, the tenacious creature eventually catches up.




Should we add Track as a bonus feat and throw a few ranks (and racial bonus) in Survival?  Or maybe something like locate creature?


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2010)

I'd give them Track* and a +4 to +8 racial bonus in Survival, rather than another magic ability.

I have this vague idea we were going to mimic the vampire ability:
Children of the Night (Su): Vampires command the lesser creatures of the world and once per day can call forth 1d6+1 rat swarms, 1d4+1 bat swarms, or a pack of 3d6 wolves as a standard action. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might summon other creatures of similar power.) These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve the vampire for up to 1 hour.
... dropping the wolves and reducing to 1 swarm for the rats and bats.

Languages are ok.  I'd just guess at around 7-10 lb from the lightest halflings.*


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## Cleon (Dec 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> I'm not sure about the wallcrawling, as they're already rather feature-rich for their power level.




The wallcrawling was merely a suggestion. So long as they have Climb I'm happy.



Shade said:


> Environment: Any urban?
> 
> Organization: Solitary or guild (2-4)?




In Habitat/Society the original monster has the following text:

"A guild typically has 4d20 members. One tatalla is the guild master and has approval over all contracts entered into by the guild, as well as the ability to assign any of the guild members to a given task. The guildmaster has 3+3 Hit Dice and a THAC0 of 17, and it uses any magical items the guild may have in its treasury."

That means the 1-4 number has to be a smaller unit, I suggest calling it a "cell", making the organisation:

*Organization:* Solitary, cell (2-4) or guild (4-80 plus 1 guildmaster with X+ character levels)



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 2?  They are far better than a 1st-level PC rogue.
> 
> Treasure: Standard?
> 
> ...




That all seems reasonable except for the LA, which seems awful high. Something like +3 or +4 would suit me better.


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2010)

freyar said:
			
		

> I'd give them Track* and a +4 to +8 racial bonus in Survival, rather than another magic ability.*



*

I can go for that.  Cleon?



			
				freyar said:
			
		


			I have this vague idea we were going to mimic the vampire ability:
Children of the Night (Su): Vampires command the lesser creatures of the world and once per day can call forth 1d6+1 rat swarms, 1d4+1 bat swarms, or a pack of 3d6 wolves as a standard action. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might summon other creatures of similar power.) These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve the vampire for up to 1 hour.
... dropping the wolves and reducing to 1 swarm for the rats and bats.
		
Click to expand...



Like so?

Call Rats and Bats (Su): Once per day, a tatalla can call forth 1 rat swarm or 1 bat swarm.  These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve the tatalla for up to 1 hour.



			
				freyar said:
			
		


			Languages are ok. I'd just guess at around 7-10 lb from the lightest halflings.
		
Click to expand...



That works.



Cleon said:



			That all seems reasonable except for the LA, which seems awful high. Something like +3 or +4 would suit me better.
		
Click to expand...



That makes them far too desirable as PC rogues:

+8 Dex
+1d6 sneak attack
Deadly venom
evasion
hide in plain sight
improved uncanny dodge
trapfinding
trap sense +2
Weapon Finesse (B)
+4 racial bonus on Disable Device, Listen, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Tumble checks
+8 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks
Considering all the rogue stuff would stack with normal rogue abilities...YIKES.  That almost makes me want to go with an LA of "—", as that is almost unplayably good for a PC!  *


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## freyar (Dec 7, 2010)

Well, I can compromise with LA: -.


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## Cleon (Dec 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> I can go for that.  Cleon?




Hmm, since it's "Unerring" that suggests something more than a plain old racial bonus. 



Shade said:


> Call Rats and Bats (Su): Once per day, a tatalla can call forth 1 rat swarm or 1 bat swarm.  These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve the tatalla for up to 1 hour.




Fine by me.



Shade said:


> That makes them far too desirable as PC rogues:




Make it Level Adjustment "—" then.


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Hmm, since it's "Unerring" that suggests something more than a plain old racial bonus.




How about locate creature as a 1/day SLA?  Or turn it into a Su ability?


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2010)

Well, since we've stopped them becoming PCs, I'd say just go with the SLA.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2010)

Suggested caster level for it?


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2010)

Well, it's 10 min/level, so sticking to CL=HD gives them 20 min/day.  If we keep the bonus feat Track and Survival bonus, that's probably sufficient in an urban area.  I suppose I could be persuaded anywhere up to CL 6, but no higher, though.


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## Cleon (Dec 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> How about locate creature as a 1/day SLA?  Or turn it into a Su ability?




I'm tempted to give them the ability to sniff out the trail of any creature affected by their venom, similar to how some snakes follow the scent of their venom to find prey that flee after being bitten.

*Track Venom (Ex):* A tatalla can follow the scent of its own venom (but not the venom of another tatalla). This allows it to track any creature poisoned by its bite as if the tatalla had the Track feat and the scent special quality, with a +10 racial bonus on its Survival checks to track by scent.


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## freyar (Dec 13, 2010)

Aren't we already giving them Track* and a Survival bonus?  I thought you wanted something "unerring" in post 928, better than a racial bonus?*


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2010)

Yeah, I'd prefer to go with locate creature at CL = HD.


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## freyar (Dec 14, 2010)

Ok, let's just stick with that.  It's what Cleon wanted originally after all.


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2010)

Updated.

Anything left?


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2010)

I hope not!


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## Cleon (Dec 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ok, let's just stick with that.  It's what Cleon wanted originally after all.




Not quite. 

I'm afraid the _locate creature_ approach is problematic. The spell has a long range, so an average 2 HD tatalla couldn't find a victim more than 480 feet away. A typical humanoid can exceed that distance in under a minute.

Besides, I like the "tracking venom" approach. To make it "unerring" the Track check could become an auto-success:

*Venom Tracking (Su):* A tatalla can unerringly track any creature it ever hit with its venomous bite. Treat this as if the tatalla has the Track feat and scent special quality, it automatically succeeds on Survival checks to track creatures it has envenomed. Venom tracking can be fooled by _mislead_ and _nondetection_ spells. A _neutralize poison_ spell removes the infinitesimal traces of venom necessary for venom tracking. Venom tracking only works for the tatalla's own venom, it can not track the venom of other tatallas or poisonous creatures.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2010)

I'm not fond of the "venom tracking".  Let's find a compromise on the necessary caster level for locate creature (or just make it a Su ability and set the range that way).


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2010)

I don't like venom tracking either.  Too strange mechanically.  Go for Su locate creature if necessary.


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## Cleon (Dec 17, 2010)

freyar said:


> I don't like venom tracking either.  Too strange mechanically.  Go for Su locate creature if necessary.




I don't like _locate creature_ as an SLA for them.

If you really don't like Venom Tracking (sniff, sniff ), I would prefer to drop the _locate creature_ and cover it with flavour text, e.g.:

Tatalla guilds are remarkably adept at locating their assassination targets. Most guilds have tatallas who are expert trackers, and the tatalla guilds also share an extensive network of informers and numerous contacts amongst bounty hunters and criminals, including evil rangers and spellcasters with scrying magic, as a result tatallas almost always find their targets no matter where they hide or flee too.


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2010)

That's fine, too.  I was happy enough with Track* and a Survival bonus. *


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## Cleon (Dec 19, 2010)

freyar said:


> That's fine, too.  I was happy enough with Track* and a Survival bonus. *



*

Are you OK leaving it as flavour text then?*


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2010)

If we give them the bonus feat and skill bonus, sure.


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> If we give them the bonus feat and skill bonus, sure.




Agreed.  Updated.

Finito?


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2010)

Think so.


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## Cleon (Dec 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Agreed.  Updated.
> 
> Finito?




Looks good, but I could think of a couple of things.

Firstly, should we add a bite to its standard attack line to make it easier for it to use its "assassination bite" ploy?

e.g.:

Attack: Bite +8 melee (1d3-1 plus poison) or claw +8 melee (1d3-1) or short sword +8 melee (1d3-1/19-20 plus poison)
Full Attack: 2 claws +8 melee (1d3-1) and bite +3 melee (1d3-1 plus  venom); or 2 short swords +6 melee (1d3-1/19-20 plus poison) and bite +3  melee (1d3-1 plus venom)

Secondly, the shortsword damage includes a "plus poison" but nowhere can I see any suggestions as to what this poison might be.

Should we remove the blade venom out or say it's coated with "Small centipede poison", since that's one of the cheapest poisons in the SRD?


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Firstly, should we add a bite to its standard attack line to make it easier for it to use its "assassination bite" ploy?
> 
> e.g.:
> 
> ...




Yep, probably a good idea.



Cleon said:


> Secondly, the shortsword damage includes a "plus poison" but nowhere can I see any suggestions as to what this poison might be.
> 
> Should we remove the blade venom out or say it's coated with "Small centipede poison", since that's one of the cheapest poisons in the SRD?




Let's go with the latter, since they have the poison use ability.  I'll model it after the derro:

Poison Use (Ex):  Derro typically carry 2d4 doses of greenblood oil or Medium monstrous spider venom, applying it to their crossbow bolts. Derro are not at risk of poisoning themselves when handling poison. 

Updated.


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## Cleon (Dec 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yep, probably a good idea.




Oops, I should have put "Bite +8 melee (1d3-1 plus _*venom*_)" in the attack line.



Shade said:


> Let's go with the latter, since they have the poison use ability.  I'll model it after the derro:
> 
> Poison Use (Ex):  Derro typically carry 2d4 doses of greenblood oil or Medium monstrous spider venom, applying it to their crossbow bolts. Derro are not at risk of poisoning themselves when handling poison.
> 
> Updated.




Hmm...

I'm tempted to give it a choice of two poisons like the Derro. Maybe Bloodroot or Greenblood oil for the other poison? I _slightly_ prefer Bloodroot.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2010)

Let's go with Bloodroot.  Updated.


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## Shade (Dec 27, 2010)

*Pasari-Niml, Warrior* 
Climate/Terrain: Any 
Frequency: Uncommon 
Organization: Squad 
Activity Cycle: Any 
Diet: Special 
Intelligence: Average (8-10) 
Treasure: Nil 
Alignment: Lawful evil 
No. Appearing: 3-12 
Armor Class: 4 
Movement: 12, Br 3 
Hit Dice: 1 
THAC0: 19 
No. of Attacks: 2 
Damage/Attack: 1-2 or by weapon 
Special Attacks: Fear aura, burrowing 
Special Defenses: See below 
Magic Resistance: Nil 
Size: T (4-6”) 
Morale: Elite (14) 
XP Value: 270 

*Pasari-Niml, Noble *
Climate/Terrain: Any 
Frequency: Rare 
Organization: Squad 
Activity Cycle: Any 
Diet: Special 
Intelligence: Very (11-12) 
Treasure: Nil 
Alignment: Lawful evil 
No. Appearing: 1-2 
Armor Class: 4 
Movement: 12, Br 3 
Hit Dice:  2 
THAC0: 19 
No. of Attacks: 2 
Damage/Attack: 1-3 or by weapon  
Special Attacks: Fear aura, burrowing 
Special Defenses: See below 
Magic Resistance: Nil 
Size: T (6-8”) 
Morale: Fanatic (18) 
XP Value: 420 

*Pasari-Niml, Calipha *
Climate/Terrain: Any 
Frequency: Very Rare 
Organization: Colony 
Activity Cycle: Any 
Diet: Carnivore 
Intelligence: Very (11-12) 
Treasure: R,Q×2,S 
Alignment: Lawful evil 
No. Appearing 1 
Armor Class:10 
Movement: 1 
Hit Dice: 3-6 
THAC0: 3-4 HD: 17
5-6 HD: 15 
No. of Attacks: 1 
Damage/Attack: 1 
Special Attacks: Fear aura 
Special Defenses: See below 
Magic Resistance: 25% 
Size: T-S (1-4’) 
Morale: Unsteady (5) 
XP Value: 3 HD: 270
4 HD: 420
5 HD: 650
6 HD: 975 

Pasari-nimal (sometimes called mants) are horrid, tool-using, insectoid predators. They appear to be very large black ants with human heads. A pasari-niml’s head has pointed ears, bulging eyes, and a long face distorted by malevolence and evil. The skin on the head is wrinkled and brown. It has six legs, two of which can wield weapons or tools.

Combat: Upon first seeing a pasari-niml, creatures with hit dice equal to or less than that of the pasari-niml seen must roll a saving throw vs. spell. Those failing are frozen in place until attacked. Those who succeed flee at their top movement rate for 1-3 rounds. Creatures of higher hit dice must roll a successful saving throw vs. spell or flee at their top movement rate for 1-2 rounds.

Pasari-nimal always travel in squads of both warriors and nobles. They attack in an organized manner, directed by the nobles, who are in constant mental contact with the colony’s calipha (queen). When a squad sights potential prey, the nobles send a few warriors to test the opponents, analyzing their attacks and defenses. The entire squad then attacks in concert.

Several climb onto a victim, and as many as eight can attack a single man-sized creature. The pasari-nimal burrow rapidly under and around well-armored individuals, creating a pitfall in one round. When the ground collapses, a victim must roll a successful saving throw vs. paralyzation or be trapped in 1 to 3 feet of dirt. A trapped enemy is attacked by several burrowing pasari-nimal. The pasari-nimal cut and pry at armor to make a hole, which takes 1-2 rounds. Afterward, a single pasari-niml attacks the vulnerable area at each hole.

If a squad faces dangerous or numerous opponents, they call for reinforcements; 1d4 additional squads arrive in 1d4+1 rounds. If necessary, the mants pull back and wait.

All warriors and nobles carry two darts and a small knife. Most pasari-nimal also carry tools, such as pry bars and awls.

Pasari-nimal are immune to all spells of the charm or enchantment schools.

Habitat/Society: Pasari-nimal live in large colonies containing 6d4×10 warriors, 1d20+20 nobles, and a calipha. They often live under human cities, burrowing in the ground and in walls of houses, sending out raiding parties at night. In the wild, warriors and nobles dig a burrow for their calipha and then construct an ever more elaborate palace above it. At any time, 1d4 squads patrol the outer reaches of the colony.

The calipha keeps a selama of nobles and reproduces rapidly, each day laying as many eggs as she has Hit Dice. Eggs hatch in three weeks; and approximately one in eight produces a noble. Once a year, a 6-HD calipha can produce a calipha egg. The egg hatches in three weeks, and a squad carries the new calipha several miles away and starts a new colony.

Pasari-nimal worship their calipha, performing rituals and carving her face into burrow and castle walls.

Pasari-nimal stay in contact through telepathy that is generated and received by their antennae only. The telepathy can be used within 1 mile of the calipha.

Ecology: Pasari-nimal are disruptive to a local ecosystem, preying on any animal or monster. Warriors and nobles bring food to the calipha, who digests and regurgitates some of it to feed them. If the calipha dies, the lesser pasari-nimal die in 1-2 days. If all the warriors and nobles die, the calipha can last three days per Hit Die, during which time new warriors or nobles may hatch.

Only very sturdy predators prey on warrior or noble mants.

*Calipha*
A calipha exists to eat, receive worship, and reproduce. She has a beautiful, if small, female human head with long tresses and large, feathery antennae. Unfortunately, this spark of beauty is situated on an ugly, mottled, wormlike body.

The calipha has only a weak bite to defend herself, and her legs are small and weak. She cannot use tools, and she moves by wriggling. A queen grows 1 HD and 1 foot per year.

Originally appeared in City of Delights (1993).


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## Cleon (Dec 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's go with Bloodroot.  Updated.




Looks finished. (at long last!)



Shade said:


> *Pasari-Niml*




Oof.

Tiny Aberrations with high Dex and Weapon Finesse for a decent melee attack?

Sure I've seen something very like that burrowing attack. Some kind of "Dirt Devil" monster that pulls its victims into a hole.

If I can't find it we can modify the "Pull-Down" SA I came up with for my Snow Wasset conversion:



Cleon said:


> *Pull-Down (Ex)*
> A snow wasset can drag a single grappled victim no larger than itself  into the snow as a standard action provided it is free to move by  burrowing. This requires a standard action and a successful grapple  check, which must also beat the grapple checks of any other participants  in the grapple. The snow wasset get a +4 bonus on its grapple check to  pull a pinned opponent into the snow, but only if no one else is  involved in the grapple. If the pull-down succeeds the snow wasset  breaks the hold(s) of any other creatures grappling it, since only the  chosen victim is pulled under, the other creatures being left upon the  surface.
> 
> The snow wasset does not necessarily pull the victim completely under  the snow, but they are deep enough that the snow wasset has total cover  and total concealment against any other opponents on the surface. The  wasset has cover and concealment against its snow-buried victim, giving  the wasset +4 AC and the victim a 20% miss chance. The confined quarters  of the snow-pit the victim is in means they can only wield light  slashing or piercing weapons.
> ...


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## Number 6 (Dec 29, 2010)

That Pitfall ability game me some trouble... but I like the looks of Cleon's Pull Down.

(Oooh-er... that sounds a bit rude.)


----------



## Cleon (Dec 30, 2010)

Number 6 said:


> That Pitfall ability game me some trouble... but I like the looks of Cleon's Pull Down.
> 
> (Oooh-er... that sounds a bit rude.)




Flatterer.

So, apart from changing "wasset" to "pasari-niml" and "snow" to "ground", what do we need to do to modify the ability?

Methinks it should use a Reflex save instead of a grapple check, since  they're opening a pitfall beneath a victim rather than dragging them  under like a Wasset does.

Change the Special Attack's name to "Bury" or "Pitfall"?


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## freyar (Dec 31, 2010)

Something like the ant lion from the Pathfinder Bonus Bestiary would probably work nicely, too, but sped up (I think this may be from the ToH originally):



> Sand Trap (Ex)
> 
> A giant ant lion can create a 60-foot-diameter trap in any sand or soft earth surface (see below). Creating a sand trap takes 1 hour. A giant ant lion can make an attack of opportunity against any creature that falls to the bottom of its sand trap. These creatures can move across sand traps at their normal speed and are immune to these traps effects.
> Ant Lion Sand Trap CR —
> ...


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## Cleon (Jan 1, 2011)

freyar said:


> Something like the ant lion from the Pathfinder Bonus Bestiary would probably work nicely, too, but sped up (I think this may be from the ToH originally):




That doesn't seem that good a fit. It's not a passive trap/hazard, but an active attack by the pasari.


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Change the Special Attack's name to "Bury" or "Pitfall"?




I vastly prefer the latter in this case.


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## Cleon (Jan 5, 2011)

Shade said:


> I vastly prefer the latter in this case.




That's fine by me, modifying Pull-Down give us something like this:

*Pitfall (Ex):* Pasari-nimal can drag opponents underground by opening a pitfall underneath them. This requires a standard action by the pasari-nimal, who must be free to move by   burrowing. If the target succeeds at a DC *X* Reflex save they will not fall into the pitfall. A single pasari-nimal can create a pitfall big enough for an opponent of Tiny size or smaller; it takes 2 pasari-nimal to create a pitfall for a Small-sized opponent, 4 for a Medium-sized opponent and 16 for a Large-sized opponent. Pasari-nimal are too small to create a pitfall for Huge-sized or larger opponents as a standard action special attack, although they can still excavate standard pit traps for such big creatures.

A pasari-nimal's pitfall collapses as soon as it is created, trapping the opponent in the hole. The pitfall is deep enough that the pasari-nimal has total cover   and total concealment against any other opponents on the surface. The pasari-nimal have cover and concealment against its buried victim, giving   the pasari-nimal  +4 AC and the victim a 20% miss chance. The confined  quarters  of the pit the victim is in means they can only wield  light  slashing or piercing weapons. If the victim has a burrow speed they can move and fight normally by burrowing.

The buried victim, or their allies, can attempt to drag the victim from the ground with a DC *Y* Strength check, or the buried victim can wiggle free with a DC *Z* Escape Artist check. The pasari-nimal can try to prevent the victim leaving the pit by grappling or other means. The save DCs are Dex-based? and include a *+A* racial bonus for the Strength and Escape Artist DCs?


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2011)

Lookin' good.  I'm leaning toward Str-based for the check and save DCs.  Rather than a flat racial bonus, how about a scaling circumstance bonus based upon the number of pasari-niml participating?


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## Number 6 (Jan 5, 2011)

Shade said:


> Rather than a flat racial bonus, how about a scaling circumstance bonus based upon the number of pasari-niml participating?



I favor this idea!

Perhaps DC 10 with the standard number of pasari-niml (two for Small, four for Medium-sized, 16 for Large) with a +2 circumstance bonus for each additional pasari-niml.


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## Cleon (Jan 7, 2011)

Shade said:


> Lookin' good.  I'm leaning toward Str-based for the  check and save DCs.  Rather than a flat racial bonus, how about a  scaling circumstance bonus based upon the number of pasari-niml  participating?




I didn't much care for the notion of making the Reflex DC Str-based since the pasari are likely to have low Strength, which'll make the DC rather low. A number-based or racial bonus to the DC would fix that.



Number 6 said:


> I favor this idea!
> 
> Perhaps DC 10 with the standard number of pasari-niml (two for Small,  four for Medium-sized, 16 for Large) with a +2 circumstance bonus for  each additional pasari-niml.




That seems too high, with a lot of pasari the DC will quickly get out of hand. I would prefer something like +X per size category difference. (e.g. if a group of pasari create a pitfall big enough for a Large creature underneath a Small victim, the DC increases by +2X).

Oh, and the original version leaves the victim buried in 1-3 feet of ground, so most victims are only partially buried.

How's this...

*Pitfall (Ex):* Pasari-nimal  can bury an opponent by opening a pitfall beneath them.  This requires a standard action by the pasari-nimal, who must be free to move by   burrowing. If the target succeeds at a DC *X* Reflex save they will not fall into the pitfall. A single pasari-nimal can create a pitfall big enough for an opponent of Tiny size or smaller; it takes 2 pasari-nimal to create a pitfall for a Small-sized opponent, 4 for a Medium-sized  opponent and 16 for a Large-sized opponent. If the pasari create an oversized pitfall the Reflex save DC increases by *+4?* for every size the pitfall is bigger than the opponent. Pasari-nimal are too small  to create a pitfall for Huge-sized or larger opponents as a standard  action special attack, although they can still excavate standard pit  traps for such big creatures.

A pasari-nimal's pitfall collapses as soon as it is created, leaving the victim trapped and partially buried in the ground. The pitfall is deep enough that the  pasari-nimal has total cover   and total concealment against any other  opponents on the surface. The pasari-nimal have cover and concealment against its buried victim, giving   the pasari-nimal   +4 AC and the victim a 20% miss chance. The confined  quarters  of the  pit the victim is in means they can only wield  light  slashing or  piercing weapons. If the victim has a burrow speed they can move and  fight normally by burrowing.

The buried victim, or their allies, can attempt to drag the victim from the ground with a DC *Y* Strength check, or the buried victim can wiggle free with a DC *Z* Escape Artist check (*+4?* DC for every size the pitfall is bigger than the opponent). The pasari-nimal can try to prevent the victim leaving the pit by grappling or other means. The save DCs are Strength-based and include a *+4* racial bonus?


----------



## freyar (Jan 9, 2011)

Should we mention that the pasari can fight normally?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 9, 2011)

freyar said:


> Should we mention that the pasari can fight normally?




I don't think we need to, but if you think it'll help I don't mind adding a "the pasari-niml fight without penalty due to their burrow speed" or the like to the text.


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## freyar (Jan 10, 2011)

Yeah, let's do that.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yeah, let's do that.




Revising...

*Pitfall (Ex):* Pasari-nimal  can bury an opponent by opening a pitfall beneath them.  This requires a standard action by the pasari-nimal, who must be free to move by   burrowing. If the target succeeds at a DC *X* Reflex save they will not fall into the pitfall. A single pasari-nimal can create a pitfall big enough for an opponent of Tiny size or smaller; it takes 2 pasari-nimal to create a pitfall for a Small-sized opponent, 4 for a Medium-sized  opponent and 16 for a Large-sized opponent. If the pasari create an oversized pitfall the Reflex save DC increases by *+4?*  for every size the pitfall is bigger than the opponent. Pasari-nimal  are too small  to create a pitfall for Huge-sized or larger opponents as  a standard  action special attack, although they can still excavate  standard pit  traps for such big creatures.

A pasari-nimal's pitfall collapses as soon as it is created, leaving the  victim trapped and partially buried in the ground. The pitfall is deep  enough that the  pasari-nimal has total cover   and total concealment  against any other  opponents on the surface. The pasari-nimal have cover and concealment against its buried victim, giving   the pasari-nimal    +4 AC and the victim a 20% miss chance. The confined  quarters  of the   pit the victim is in means they can only wield  light  slashing or   piercing weapons. The pasari-niml fight without penalty due to their burrow speed. If the victim has a burrow speed, they can move and   fight normally by burrowing.

The buried victim, or their allies, can attempt to drag the victim from the ground with a DC *Y* Strength check, or the buried victim can wiggle free with a DC *Z* Escape Artist check (*+4?* DC for every size the pitfall is bigger than the opponent). The pasari-nimal can try to prevent the victim leaving the pit by grappling or other means. The save DCs are Strength-based and include a *+4* racial bonus?


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## Shade (Jan 11, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Tiny Aberrations with high Dex and Weapon Finesse for a decent melee attack?




Actually, it looks like the warriors and nobles are Diminutive, and the Calipha is Tiny (advancing to Small).

Let's figure out ability scores.

Giant Soldier Ant (M): Str 14, Dex 10, Con 13, Int —, Wis 13, Cha 11
...Downsized to (D):  Str 4, Dex 16, Con 11, Int —, Wis 13, Cha 11
Tiny Monstrous Centipede: Str 1, Dex 15, Con 10, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
Tiny Monstrous Scorpion: Str 3, Dex 10, Con 14, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
Tiny Monstrous Spider: Str 3, Dex 17, Con 10, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
Mulworm (D): Str 1, Dex 12, Con 11, Int —, Wis 14, Cha 4
Wiggling Maggot (D): Str 1, Dex 12, Con 11, Int —, Wis 14, Cha 2

The warrior has Int 8-10, the noble 11-12, and the calipha 11-12.  The calipha appears to have a Con penalty.  The giant ant queen has poorer Dex, and the calipha's description doesn't seem to suggest otherwise.

Since they most closely resemble ants, I propose...

Warrior (D): Str 3, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 11
Noble (D): Str 4, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 13
Calipha (T):  Str 5, Dex 11, Con 9, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 15



Cleon said:


> Revising...
> 
> *Pitfall (Ex):* Pasari-nimal  can bury an opponent by opening a pitfall beneath them.  This requires a standard action by the pasari-nimal, who must be free to move by   burrowing. If the target succeeds at a DC *X* Reflex save they will not fall into the pitfall. A single pasari-nimal can create a pitfall big enough for an opponent of Tiny size or smaller; it takes 2 pasari-nimal to create a pitfall for a Small-sized opponent, 4 for a Medium-sized  opponent and 16 for a Large-sized opponent. If the pasari create an oversized pitfall the Reflex save DC increases by *+4?*  for every size the pitfall is bigger than the opponent. Pasari-nimal  are too small  to create a pitfall for Huge-sized or larger opponents as  a standard  action special attack, although they can still excavate  standard pit  traps for such big creatures.
> 
> ...




Remove the "-sized" bits, and I think it's looking pretty good!


----------



## Cleon (Jan 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> Actually, it looks like the warriors and nobles are Diminutive, and the Calipha is Tiny (advancing to Small).
> 
> Let's figure out ability scores.
> 
> ...




Yes, I realized the non-queens were only a few inches in size, which is certainly more Diminutive than Tiny. I was thinking it'd be best to enlarge them so they do some damage in melee.

If we make them Tiny and give them longswords and Strength 8 they'd do 1d4-1 damage, or 1.5 on average - the same average as the original's 1-2 damage.

A Diminutive Str 4 version does 1d3-3 damage with a longsword, even with a Greatsword they'd only do 1d4-4 damage.



Shade said:


> Remove the "-sized" bits, and I think it's looking pretty good!


----------



## Shade (Jan 13, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Yes, I realized the non-queens were only a few inches in size, which is certainly more Diminutive than Tiny. I was thinking it'd be best to enlarge them so they do some damage in melee.
> 
> If we make them Tiny and give them longswords and Strength 8 they'd do 1d4-1 damage, or 1.5 on average - the same average as the original's 1-2 damage.
> 
> A Diminutive Str 4 version does 1d3-3 damage with a longsword, even with a Greatsword they'd only do 1d4-4 damage.




Hmm...I'm not sure retaining the damage is that important.  I'm a bit sad to lose a Diminutive creature when the opportunity presents itself.  Nearly all Diminutive creatures are animals, vermin, or fey.


----------



## freyar (Jan 13, 2011)

Maybe we could increase the Str a little.  Or something.


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## Cleon (Jan 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> Hmm...I'm not sure retaining the damage is that important.  I'm a bit sad to lose a Diminutive creature when the opportunity presents itself.  Nearly all Diminutive creatures are animals, vermin, or fey.




I would just like them to have some chance of doing a few points of damage.

I'd be OK with them Diminutive if they had greatswords for the "knives" with Strength 6 warriors (for 1d6-2 damage) and Strength 4-5 Nobles (1d6-3), since that gives them the same average damage of the original monster.

1d6-2 average (min 1 hp damage) is 4,3,2,1,1,1 damage = 12/6 average = 2 hp, or average of 1d3)

1d6-3 average (min 1 hp damage) is 3,2,1,1,1,1 damage = 9/6 average = 1.5 hp, or average of 1d2)

We can give them light crossbows (1d3) to fire their "darts" for similar damage to the original. Unfortunately we can't give the Nobles javelins or shortbows for 1d2 damage since they'd have to add a Strength penalty.


----------



## freyar (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm fine with greatswords and Str 6.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'm fine with greatswords and Str 6.




Let's do that then!

I think it's time to do a working draft.

EDIT: Working draft done. I increased the Calipha's Con to 10 since I didn't like her with a Constitution penalty.


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## Cleon (Jan 17, 2011)

*Pasari-Nimal Working Draft*

*Pasari-Niml, Warrior*
Diminutive Aberration
Hit Dice: 1d8 (4 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), burrow 10 ft.
Armor Class: 18 (+4 size, +3 Dex, +1 armour), touch 17, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-14
Attack: Greatsword _+_7 melee (1d6-2) or light crossbow +7 ranged (1d3/x3)
Full  Attack: Greatsword _+_7 melee (1d6-2) or light crossbow +7 ranged (1d3/x3)
Space/Reach: 1 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks:"Fear aura", pitfall
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., hive telepathy, spell resistance X, tremorsense 60 ft.
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +3, Will +3
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 11
Skills: 8 ranks
Feats: 1 plus Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Any land?
Organization: Squad (3-12 pasari-niml warriors plus 1-2 pasari-niml nobles) or nest (60-240 warriors plus 11-30 nobles plus 1 calipha) ?
Challenge Rating: ?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always lawful evil?
Advancement: ?
Level Adjustment: —

*Pasari-Niml, Noble*
 Diminutive Aberration
 Hit Dice: 2d8 (9 hp)
 Initiative: +3
 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), burrow 10 ft.
 Armor Class: 18 (+4 size, +3 Dex, +1 armour), touch 17, flat-footed 15
 Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-14
 Attack: Greatsword _+_8 melee (1d6-3) or light crossbow +8 ranged (1d3/x3)
 Full  Attack: Greatsword _+_8 melee (1d6-3) or light crossbow +8 ranged (1d3/x3)
 Space/Reach: 1 ft./0 ft.
 Special Attacks:"Fear aura", pitfall
 Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., hive telepathy, spell resistance X, tremorsense 60 ft.
 Saves: Fort +0, Ref +3, Will +4
 Abilities: Str 5, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 13
 Skills: 15 ranks
 Feats: 1 plus Weapon Finesse (B)
 Environment: Any land?
 Organization: Squad (3-12 pasari-niml warriors plus 1-2  pasari-niml nobles) or nest (60-240 warriors plus 11-30 nobles plus 1  calipha) ?
 Challenge Rating: ?
 Treasure: None
 Alignment: Always lawful evil?
 Advancement: ?
 Level Adjustment: —

*Pasari-Niml, Calipha*
  Tiny Aberration
  Hit Dice: 3d8 (13 hp)
  Initiative: +0
  Speed: 5 ft. (1 squares)
  Armor Class: 12 (+2 size), touch 12, flat-footed 12
  Base Attack/Grapple: +2/-9
  Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d3-3)
  Full  Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d3-3)
  Space/Reach: 2 1/2 ft./0 ft.
  Special Attacks:"Fear aura"
  Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., hive telepathy, spell resistance X, tremorsense 60 ft.
  Saves: Fort +1, Ref +1, Will +4
  Abilities: Str 5, Dex 11, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 15
  Skills: 18 ranks
  Feats: 2
  Environment: Any land?
  Organization: Nest (60-240 warriors plus 11-30 nobles plus 1  calipha) ?
  Challenge Rating: ?
  Treasure: Double standard?
  Alignment: Always lawful evil?
  Advancement: 4-5 HD (Tiny); 6-9 HD (Small)?
  Level Adjustment: —

_Descriptor_

Background

*Combat*
Tactics

*Pitfall (Ex):* Pasari-nimal  can bury an opponent by opening a pitfall beneath them.  This requires a standard action by the pasari-nimal, who must be free to move by   burrowing. If the target succeeds at a DC *X* Reflex save they will not fall into the pitfall. A single pasari-nimal can create a pitfall big enough for an opponent of Tiny size or smaller; it takes 2 pasari-nimal to create a pitfall for a Small-sized opponent, 4 for a Medium-sized  opponent and 16 for a Large-sized opponent. If the pasari create an oversized pitfall the Reflex save DC increases by *+4?*   for every size the pitfall is bigger than the opponent. Pasari-nimal   are too small  to create a pitfall for Huge-sized or larger opponents as   a standard  action special attack, although they can still excavate   standard pit  traps for such big creatures.

A pasari-nimal's pitfall collapses as soon as it is created, leaving the   victim trapped and partially buried in the ground. The pitfall is deep   enough that the  pasari-nimal has total cover   and total concealment   against any other  opponents on the surface. The pasari-nimal have cover and concealment against its buried victim, giving   the pasari-nimal     +4 AC and the victim a 20% miss chance. The confined  quarters  of  the   pit the victim is in means they can only wield  light  slashing or    piercing weapons. The pasari-niml fight without penalty due to their burrow speed. If the victim has a burrow speed, they can move and   fight normally by burrowing.

The buried victim, or their allies, can attempt to drag the victim from the ground with a DC *Y* Strength check, or the buried victim can wiggle free with a DC *Z* Escape Artist check (*+4?* DC for every size the pitfall is bigger than the opponent). The pasari-nimal can try to prevent the victim leaving the pit by grappling or other means. The save DCs are Strength-based and include a *+4* racial bonus?


----------



## Shade (Jan 18, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.

Shall we give the warriors and nobles a climb speed, like ants?


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## freyar (Jan 19, 2011)

That makes sense to me!


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## Cleon (Jan 20, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Shall we give the warriors and nobles a climb speed, like ants?




I'd prefer just land & burrow speeds since the original doesn't have a climb speed.

The warrior and noble pasari appear to be shaped rather like Formians (antlike insect-humans with 4 legs & 2 arms), and the SRD formians don't have a climb speed.

However, if you're all set on adding Climb I won't stand in your way.


----------



## freyar (Jan 20, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I'd prefer just land & burrow speeds since the original doesn't have a climb speed.
> 
> The warrior and noble pasari appear to be shaped rather like Formians (antlike insect-humans with 4 legs & 2 arms), and the SRD formians don't have a climb speed.
> 
> However, if you're all set on adding Climb I won't stand in your way.



Not a terribly big difference either way or the other to me.  But regarding formians, we should note that the pasari are still proportionately stronger than formians and might be better at climbing.


----------



## Shade (Jan 21, 2011)

Also, climb speeds didn't really exist in past editions, but were rather relegated to thieving abilities.  

Updated.

Shall we work upon the "fear aura"?



> Upon first seeing a pasari-niml, creatures with hit dice equal to or less than that of the pasari-niml seen must roll a saving throw vs. spell. Those failing are frozen in place until attacked. Those who succeed flee at their top movement rate for 1-3 rounds. Creatures of higher hit dice must roll a successful saving throw vs. spell or flee at their top movement rate for 1-2 rounds.




It sounds like the panicked condition.


----------



## freyar (Jan 21, 2011)

Sounds like possibly cowering, too.  Could just use a modified frightful presence:

Frightful Presence (Ex): A pasari-niml can unsettle foes with its mere presence.  Any time a creature within 30 ft sees a pasari-niml, it must make a DC X Will save.  Creatures with more HD than the pasari-niml become panicked for 1d2 rounds on a failed save, while creatures with the same or fewer HD than the pasari-niml are panicked for 1d3 rounds on a successful save and cower for 1d4 rounds or until attacked on a failed save.  Regardless of the result of the save, the victim is immune to the frightful presence of all pasari-niml for 24 hours.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

How's it look?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 22, 2011)

freyar said:


> Sounds like possibly cowering, too.  Could just use a modified frightful presence:
> 
> Frightful Presence (Ex): A pasari-niml can unsettle foes with its mere presence.  Any time a creature within 30 ft sees a pasari-niml, it must make a DC X Will save.  Creatures with more HD than the pasari-niml become panicked for 1d2 rounds on a failed save, while creatures with the same or fewer HD than the pasari-niml are panicked for 1d3 rounds on a successful save and cower for 1d4 rounds or until attacked on a failed save.  Regardless of the result of the save, the victim is immune to the frightful presence of all pasari-niml for 24 hours.  The save DC is Charisma-based.
> 
> How's it look?




Looks good, except I prefer frightened for the creatures with more HD:

e.g.:

*Frightful Presence (Ex):* A pasari-niml can unsettle foes with its mere  presence.  Any time a creature sees a pasari-niml within 30 ft. it must  make a DC X Will save.  Creatures with more HD than the pasari-niml  become frightened for 1d2 rounds on a failed save and flee in fear, while creatures with  the same or fewer HD than the pasari-niml are panicked for 1d3 rounds on  a successful save and cower for 1d4 rounds or until attacked on a  failed save.  Regardless of the result of the save, the victim is immune  to the frightful presence of all pasari-niml for 24 hours.  The save DC  is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2011)

That's ok, though we don't have to spell out "flees" since that's part of frightened.


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## Shade (Jan 24, 2011)

freyar said:


> That's ok, though we don't have to spell out "flees" since that's part of frightened.




Good point.

Updated.

Did we address "hive telepathy" yet?


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## Cleon (Jan 25, 2011)

freyar said:


> That's ok, though we don't have to spell out "flees" since that's part of frightened.




I knew it wasn't necessary, but fancied including it as a reminder.

Do you think it would improve it to put brackets around the "or until attacked"?

* Frightful Presence (Ex):* A pasari-niml can unsettle foes with its mere  presence. Any time a creature within 30 ft sees a pasari-niml, it must  make a Will save. Creatures with more HD than the pasari-niml become  frightened for 1d2 rounds on a failed save, while creatures with the  same or fewer HD than the pasari-niml are panicked for 1d3 rounds on a  successful save and cower for 1d4 rounds (or until attacked) on a failed  save. Regardless of the result of the save, the victim is immune to the  frightful presence of all pasari-niml for 24 hours. The save DC is  Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2011)

The parentheses in frightful presence are fine.

On the telepathy, we have



> Pasari-nimal stay in contact through telepathy that is generated and received by their antennae only. The telepathy can be used within 1 mile of the calipha.




Seems a lot like the formian hive mind with a reduced range:



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Hive Mind (Ex): All formians within 50 miles of their queen are in constant communication. If one is aware of a particular danger, they all are. If one in a group is not flatfooted, none of them are. No formian in a group is considered flanked unless all of them are.




Just borrow that?


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## Shade (Jan 26, 2011)

freyar said:


> The parentheses in frightful presence are fine.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> ...


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## Cleon (Jan 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> Seems a lot like the formian hive mind with a reduced range:




That's what I'd go for too.

It's one of the few occasions when I don't want to reinvent the wheel.


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2011)

Updated.

Warrior CR: 1/2?
Noble CR: 1?
Calipha CR: 2?

No Advancement for the lesser two?  I'd assume they'd just "evolve" into the next step up, or forever we stuck in their lot in life.

Alignment: Always lawful evil?


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## Cleon (Jan 29, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Warrior CR: 1/2?
> Noble CR: 1?
> ...




Those Challenge Ratings look OK.

I think the warriors just stay warriors, and most of the nobles are males (i.e. "drones"). Also, the original warrior/nobles were Tiny so I wouldn't mind allowing for large "elite warriors", "favoured mate" and the like.

Maybe Advancement like so:

*Warrior:* 2 HD (Diminutive); 3 HD (Tiny)
*Noble:* 3-4 HD (Tiny)



Shade said:


> Alignment: Always lawful evil?




Yes, I think so.


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## freyar (Jan 29, 2011)

I prefer to have some advancement, as well.


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## Cleon (Jan 30, 2011)

freyar said:


> I prefer to have some advancement, as well.




Would the proposed Advancement suit you?


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## freyar (Feb 1, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Would the proposed Advancement suit you?



Yes, in fact, that's what I meant.


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## Cleon (Feb 3, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yes, in fact, that's what I meant.




What do we have left then?


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2011)

Weight for the calipha.  1-50 lb?

Language, also.  Common?  Not sure what else might fit.  Sylvan, in a twisted sort of way?


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## Number 6 (Feb 4, 2011)

Maybe, since they burrow and create expansive tunnels, Undercommon... though they probably don't go *that* far.


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2011)

I'd be content with just Common.  If we really had to stretch, I'd vote for Undercommon or Terran.


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## Cleon (Feb 4, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'd be content with just Common.  If we really had to stretch, I'd vote for Undercommon or Terran.




There is the possibility they can only communicate with their telepathic antennae to other Mants.

I like the idea of Undercommon but don't support Terran.

So how about "Pasari-niml can speak Common and Undercommon, but usually only communicate with their own kind by hive telepathy."

1 to 50 pounds for the Calipha is reasonable.


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## freyar (Feb 7, 2011)

I like that solution for the languages.  Pretty much done, then?


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2011)

Updated.

Did we ever decide on feats and skills?


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## Number 6 (Feb 8, 2011)

For the Warriors and Nobles, what about Improved Initiative?  Or perhaps Combat Reflexes to give them the advantage of more Attacks of Opportunity?  Or simply give them Weapon Focus and increase their chances of successful attacks?

Maybe the Calipha has Iron Will to help prevent those pesky spellcasters from getting away with spells allowing for Will Saves.


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## Shade (Feb 8, 2011)

Nice Listen check result!  

Improved Initiative or Weapon Focus appeal for the smaller two, and Iron Will for the calipha works as well.


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## Cleon (Feb 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> Nice Listen check result!
> 
> Improved Initiative or Weapon Focus appeal for the smaller two, and Iron Will for the calipha works as well.




Combat Reflexes is of limited use to a creature without Reach, of the remaining options I'd prefer Weapon Focus (greatsword).

Full ranks in Spot and Listen for the Warriors?

We need to add another maxed out skill (or an equivalent point division) for the Nobles.

Maybe Knowledge (religion) and Knowledge (architecture and engineering) since they spend all their time worshipping their Calipha and building her a palace?


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Combat Reflexes is of limited use to a creature without Reach, of the remaining options I'd prefer Weapon Focus (greatsword).
> 
> Full ranks in Spot and Listen for the Warriors?
> 
> ...




I can support all that.


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## Cleon (Feb 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> I can support all that.




Good!

So what skills shall we give the Calipha?


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2011)

Updated.

We seem to have missed this:



> Pasari-nimal are immune to all spells of the charm or enchantment schools.




Simplify to immunity to mind-affecting spells and abilities?



> A calipha exists to eat, receive worship, and reproduce. She has a beautiful, if small, female human head with long tresses and large, feathery antennae. Unfortunately, this spark of beauty is situated on an ugly, mottled, wormlike body.
> 
> The calipha has only a weak bite to defend herself, and her legs are small and weak. She cannot use tools, and she moves by wriggling.




Diplomacy, Sense Motive?  Split the remainder between Listen and Spot?

Negotiator for the second feat?


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## Cleon (Feb 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> We seem to have missed this:
> 
> Simplify to immunity to mind-affecting spells and abilities?




I'd prefer immunity to Enchantment spells and charm effects, then it can still be struck by fear and illusions:

*Immunity To Enchantments (Su):* A pasari-niml is immune to all spells of the Enchantment school that allow spell resistance, it is also immune to all charm effects, such as a harpy's captivating song.



Shade said:


> Diplomacy, Sense Motive?  Split the remainder between Listen and Spot?
> 
> Negotiator for the second feat?




Sounds good, except I think we should give her the same Spot and Listen bonus as her nobles. Max out Diplomacy, 4 ranks in the other 3 skills?

*Skill Ranks:* Diplomacy 6, Listen 4, Sense Motive 4, Spot 4

I think we should still give her Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, especially as it's included in her bite's +4 attack modifier!

*Feats:* Iron Will, Negotiator, Weapon Finesse (B)

=>

*Skills:* Diplomacy +10, Listen +5, Sense Motive +7,  Spot* +5
*


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2011)

I'm OK with all that, except I'm shifting a rank from Diplomacy to Sense Motive to trigger the synergy bonus to Diplomacy.  Net gain!  

Updated.

We've still got some "x"s and question marks in Pitfall...

Pitfall (Ex): Pasari-niml can bury an opponent by opening a pitfall beneath them. This requires a standard action by the pasari-niml, who must be free to move by burrowing. The target must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or fall into the pitfall. A single pasari-niml can create a pitfall big enough for an opponent of Tiny size or smaller; it takes 2 pasari-niml to create a pitfall for a Small opponent, 4 for a Medium opponent and 16 for a Large opponent. If the pasari-niml create an oversized pitfall, the Reflex save DC increases by +4? for every size the pitfall is bigger than the opponent. Pasari-niml are too small to create a pitfall for Huge or larger opponents with this ability, although they can still excavate standard pit traps for such big creatures.

A pasari-niml's pitfall collapses as soon as it is created, leaving the victim trapped and partially buried in the ground. The pitfall is deep enough that the pasari-niml has total cover and total concealment against any other opponents on the surface. The pasari-niml have cover and concealment against a buried victim, giving the pasari-niml +4 AC and the victim a 20% miss chance. Due to the confined quarters of the pit, the victim can only wield light slashing or piercing weapons. The pasari-niml fight without penalty due to their burrow speed. If the victim has a burrow speed, they can move and fight normally by burrowing.

The buried victim, or its allies, can attempt to drag the victim from the ground with a DC Y Strength check, or the buried victim can wiggle free with a DC Z Escape Artist check (+4? DC for every size the pitfall is bigger than the opponent). The pasari-niml can try to prevent the victim leaving the pit by grappling or other means. The save DCs are Strength-based and include a +4 racial bonus?


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## Cleon (Feb 11, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'm OK with all that, except I'm shifting a rank from Diplomacy to Sense Motive to trigger the synergy bonus to Diplomacy.  Net gain!
> 
> Updated.




Dang it! The idea of checking for synergies floated into my head while I was writing that and promptly floated out again.



Shade said:


> We've still got some "x"s and question marks in Pitfall...




I'm happy with the +4 if you are. I was also going to give the racial bonus to the ability/skill checks, not just the saves.

Revising...

*Pitfall (Ex):* Pasari-niml can bury an opponent by opening a pitfall  beneath them. This requires a standard action by the pasari-niml, who  must be free to move by burrowing. The target must succeed on a DC 12  Reflex save or fall into the pitfall. A single pasari-niml can create a  pitfall big enough for an opponent of Tiny size or smaller; it takes 2  pasari-niml to create a pitfall for a Small opponent, 4 for a Medium  opponent and 16 for a Large opponent. If the pasari-niml create an  oversized pitfall, the Reflex save DC increases by +4 for every size  the pitfall is bigger than the opponent. Pasari-niml are too small to  create a pitfall for Huge or larger opponents with this ability,  although they can still excavate standard pit traps for such big  creatures.

A pasari-niml's pitfall collapses as soon as it is created, leaving the  victim trapped and partially buried in the ground. The pitfall is deep  enough that the pasari-niml has total cover and total concealment  against any other opponents on the surface. The pasari-niml have cover  and concealment against a buried victim, giving the pasari-niml +4 AC  and the victim a 20% miss chance. Due to the confined quarters of the  pit, the victim can only wield light slashing or piercing weapons. The  pasari-niml fight without penalty due to their burrow speed. If the  victim has a burrow speed, they can move and fight normally by  burrowing.

The buried victim, or its allies, can attempt to drag the victim from  the ground with a DC 12 Strength check, or the buried victim can wiggle  free with a DC 12 Escape Artist check (+4 on these DCs for every size the pitfall  is bigger than the opponent). The pasari-niml can try to prevent the  victim leaving the pit by grappling or other means. The DCs are  Strength-based and include a +4 racial bonus.


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2011)

Updated.



> The pasari-nimal cut and pry at armor to make a hole, which takes 1-2 rounds. Afterward, a single pasari-niml attacks the vulnerable area at each hole.




Should we give them Improved Sunder as a bonus feat?  Or some form or armor-destroying ability like a bebelith (usable only against those trapped in a pitfall)?


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## Cleon (Feb 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Should we give them Improved Sunder as a bonus feat?  Or some form or armor-destroying ability like a bebelith (usable only against those trapped in a pitfall)?




I think a special attack's a better fit than Sunder.*Hole Armor (Ex?):* Pasari-niml can tear holes in an opponent's armour. The opponent must be unable to move freely (e.g. trapped in a pasari-niml's pitfall or entangled). Creatures not wearing armor are unaffected by this special attack. Armor with hardness 15 or higher (e.g. mithral, adamantine) are immune to this ability.

Hole armor is a standard action with the same range as the pasari's melee attacks. If [something] the pasari-niml deals 1d6 points of damage to the opponent's armor and tears a hole in it. A single pasari-niml can then attack the vulnerable area at the hole, ignoring the opponent's armour bonus. Multiple uses of hole armor open separate holes, each of which can be exploited by a pasari-niml. Armor reduced to 0 hit points is destroyed. Damaged armor may be repaired with a successful Craft (armorsmithing) check.​I wondered whether it should be a Supernatural Attack, since tearing open armour seems a little extreme for a foot-tall Mant's mundane attacks, but I guess its no more unlikely than digging a Pitfall in seconds (indeed, the two abilities might be separate applications of one power).

That leaves the "how does it do it" bit. My first thought was a Strength check:If the pasari niml succeeds at a Strength check (DC X plus opponent's armor bonus), the pasari-niml deals 1d6 points of damage to the opponent' s armor and tears a hole in it.​Or we could base it on HD:If the pasari niml succeeds at a level check (DC X plus opponent's  armor bonus), the pasari-niml deals 1d6 points of damage to the  opponent' s armor and tears a hole in it.​Or the opponent might get a save.The opponent must succeed at a DC12 Reflex save or the pasari-niml deals 1d6 points of damage to the  opponent' s armor and tears a hole in it. The DC is Strength-based and include a +4 racial bonus.​What do you think?


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## Shade (Feb 14, 2011)

Su special ability makes sense, and I favor the Reflex save option.


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## Cleon (Feb 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> Su special ability makes sense, and I favor the Reflex save option.




Fine by me.


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## Shade (Feb 15, 2011)

Updated.


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## freyar (Feb 16, 2011)

My mind is numb trying to parse all that, but I didn't notice anything missing.  Is that it?


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## Shade (Feb 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> My mind is numb trying to parse all that, but I didn't notice anything missing.  Is that it?




I believe so, but Cleon may find otherwise.


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## Cleon (Feb 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> I believe so, but Cleon may find otherwise.




All I could find was two typos in the Warrior/Noble's description:

_This creature resembles an oversided black ant with a humanoid head.   Its long face appears malevolent, with bulding eyes, pointed ears, and  wrinkled brown skin.  It walks on four of its six legs, while the other  pair seem to function as arms._

It should be.

_This creature resembles an oversized black ant with a humanoid head.   Its long face appears malevolent, with bulging eyes, pointed ears, and  wrinkled brown skin.  It walks on four of its six legs, while the other  pair seem to function as arms._


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## Shade (Feb 16, 2011)

Updated.

I've gotta run, but will post the next one tomorrow.

Oh, and close this thread due to its high post count!


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2011)

Thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 posts.

See continuation here.


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