# Beholder CR



## palin (Dec 15, 2002)

I was wondering what everyone thought about a Beholder's CR of 13. Do people feel it is too high, or too low and why?

I'm thinking of using this monster in an upcoming game (players forget I said this  and didn't want to make the eventual 'end encounter' too hard as it will also contain other monsters. The party is 10-11 th level and will probably gain 1 more level between now and then (depending on how they deal with a particuarly nasty Death Knight Variant)


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## Celtavian (Dec 15, 2002)

*Re*

Their hit points seem a little low to warrant such a high CR, but their powers are pretty awsome.

I know we took one on the other day, and our archer destroyed it in two rounds. A wizard can kill an unprepared beholder even faster. I am not sure. In certain circumstances, they can certainly be formiddable, but seem way to easy to kill IMO.


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## Berk (Dec 15, 2002)

Their cr seems a bit off, but it all depends on the party make up and all. Remeber in Ross' game when we were 10th level we slaughtered that beholder. But then again, in my game in Ravenloft remember what happened? *evil grin* We were 17th level and Solaris got petrified. But then again that was a beholder mage that came in in the last round after Rich's char got turned to stone that started to wipe the floor with us. =op But anyways you know how I feel about CR's. =op


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## the Jester (Dec 15, 2002)

I think it's about right; I ran a shadow beholder (template from the MotP) and it seemed about CR 14...


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## RangerWickett (Dec 15, 2002)

First things first, the beholder will be levitating out of reach of melee.  It has a very high Intelligence and Wisdom, so it will recognize a spellcaster at the first sign of mumbling.  Always assume it readies an action to turn its antimagic eye toward spellcasters, while the other eyes take out other foes.  If it sees someone with a bow, it will keep its telekinesis eye ready for that person to deflect the arrows (it should be easy with that much force; it could even shoot them back at the archer).  Then it will attempt to charm and scare off the archer.

Then the next round, once it has cancelled an attempted spell, it will fire off the death ray, petrification ray, and inflict wounds ray at the wizard, while continuing to try to charm or put to sleep warriors.  The cleric it doesn't have to worry about as much, since they tend to lack ranged attack spells, and usually aren't big archers.  If they are, it can always just block the arrows with telekinesis again.  If anyone starts flying, that person will be antimagicked to the floor.

With the thing's mad spot check, it should never be surprised, and so should always be considered to start combat with a readied action.  It should only ever use its bite if it is being grappled by a wizard with an antimagic field or something similar.

They're CR 13 easily, if not higher.  I personally would've given them fewer instant kill abilities and raised their HP and AC a bit to compensate.  Maybe replace disintegrate with a fire beam (requiring a Reflex save), and the petrification beam with an offensive teleport spell to remove the person from combat without killing them.

Also, if you're going to have them fight a beholder, have it be underground, in a cave complex the beholder has designed.  Using its disintegrate beam, it will cut numerous vertical shafts, with a few interconnecting horizontal shafts.  Each shaft will have many narrow holes carved through it, so the lair resembles a block of Swiss cheese that someone cored out vertically.  The eye tyrant can keep track of all the various passages, and can snipe from them if it sees a foe.


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## Berk (Dec 15, 2002)

> First things first, the beholder will be levitating out of reach of melee. It has a very high Intelligence and Wisdom, so it will recognize a spellcaster at the first sign of mumbling. Always assume it readies an action to turn its antimagic eye toward spellcasters, while the other eyes take out other foes. If it sees someone with a bow, it will keep its telekinesis eye ready for that person to deflect the arrows (it should be easy with that much force; it could even shoot them back at the archer). Then it will attempt to charm and scare off the archer.
> 
> Then the next round, once it has cancelled an attempted spell, it will fire off the death ray, petrification ray, and inflict wounds ray at the wizard, while continuing to try to charm or put to sleep warriors. The cleric it doesn't have to worry about as much, since they tend to lack ranged attack spells, and usually aren't big archers. If they are, it can always just block the arrows wi
> 
> ...





That's a lot of readied actions for one round. =op And then to do more actions in the same round that the beholder readied an action is just amazing. =o) Anyways though, good tactics, just not all possible at the same time since you can only ready one action a round and don't do anything until that action and then can only do that action. But good tactics for everything else besides that. =o)


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## RangerWickett (Dec 15, 2002)

I would rule that since a beholder can conceivably fire all 10 eyes rays in the same round that it moves 20 feet and bites, that the eyes act independently of the rest of the body.  The body itself readies the action to block spellcasters with antimagic, while the eyes zap away willy-nilly.


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## gfunk (Dec 15, 2002)

IMC, Beholders are used to devastating effect when combined with melee beasts.  We actually ran into the Beholder in the Underdark and its anti-magic cone knocked out or magical darkvision.  We couldn't see for crap and his retainers waded in layed a world of hurt on us.  But in our case, our PCs are pretty spell-caster heavy so this is the ideal tactic.  If your party has a Barbarian/Frenzied Beserker or a Fighter then a Beholder can probably use a better tactic.

If you are interested in seeing how a Beholder put the smack down on our party, check out my Story Hour,

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33249


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## AuraSeer (Dec 16, 2002)

The beholder is one of those monsters that depends heavily on circumstance.  IMO, the listed CR of 13 assumes at least that the monster gets to choose the terrain. If it gets an ambush, the surprise round will involve a lot of saving throws and probably a downed PC or two. But if it ever gets caught in melee range, or if spellcasters manage to avoid its antimagic, it's liable to drop in two rounds or less.

Its low Fortitude save leaves it vulnerable to save-or-lose spells like _Disintegrate_ or _Polymorph Other_. Its low Reflex save, together with its relatively low hit point total, will get it toasted by a single Maximized _Fireball_. Its ranged touch AC is only 9.

A party that can cast its own _Antimagic Field_ will totally shut down a beholder. Its eye rays become useless, and advancing to melee would be suicide; all it can do is hide or flee, and hope that its max of 40' per round is enough to outdistance the archers.

If the battle happens in an area where the beholder can use effective tactics-- staying up out of melee range, and choosing which PCs are caught in its antimagic-- then CR 13 is probably about right. But out in the open, or if it's spotted from a distance, it's significantly less challenging.


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## Dr_Rictus (Dec 16, 2002)

AuraSeer said:
			
		

> *IMO, the listed CR of 13 assumes at least that the monster gets to choose the terrain. *




Not just that.  With _disintegrate_ at will, it gets to have already _carved_ the terrain.


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## AuraSeer (Dec 16, 2002)

Dr_Rictus said:
			
		

> *
> Not just that.  With disintegrate at will, it gets to have already carved the terrain. *



Same difference. Whether it carves some tunnels itself, or "happens" to live in perfectly advantageous terrain (as NPCs so often do), the effect is the same.


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## kigmatzomat (Dec 16, 2002)

The actual effect will depend on the situation.  If the beholder has acquired a number of noisy minions (shriekers, if nothing else), it can be a devastating opponent as others have pointed out.  HOWEVER, a rogue at the levels you are discussing will likely have move/sneak skills of 17 before magic, which could easily take them up to 27.  This holds up well to the beholder's spot of 20.  Even if they can't dodge the antimagic cone, the 17 vs 20 is a calculated risk.  

Even though beholders can't be flanked and few rogues know how to sneak attack a beholder, just knowing where the beholder is can make all the difference.   If your party happens to have a "blaster" item (high-level wand of fireballs, staff of whomping, whatever), the rogue might be able to soften up the beholder during the surprise round while the other PCs get in position if his use device is good enough.  

Like most encounters, it all depends on how aware the opponent is and how well the territory favors them.   If the players can get the drop on a Beholder (and know they will be fighting one) it can be over with a few well placed spells or ranged attacks.  The other way around will likely result in a messy fight with several PCs seriously messed up (disintigrate & stone to flesh leap to mind).


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## maddman75 (Dec 16, 2002)

Don't forget his charm monster ability!  EVery boholder needs at least two kinds of pets.

Meat shields.  I find that umber hulks, girallons, or gray renders work wonders here.

The second is a spellcaster to haste the beholder.  I personally rule that opening or shutting the central eye is a MEA.  The text lists it as supernatural, but also says that it is continuously put out by the central eye.  A real RBDM might say that its a free action, but that's likely to make your players have fits.

Even so, a hasted beholder could use his MEA to shut his eye, use as many of his eyestalks as he could, then use the partial action to open it again.  If your DM calls it a free action, he can do this anyway.


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## MerakSpielman (Dec 16, 2002)

How about a spellcaster to _Improved Invisible_ the beholder?


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## AuraSeer (Dec 16, 2002)

maddman75 said:
			
		

> *Don't forget his charm monster ability!  EVery boholder needs at least two kinds of pets.*



If pets were included in the CR, the book would say so (as in the entry for the Formian Taskmaster). If you add additional monsters to the encounter, make sure you award XP for them as normal.



> *
> Even so, a hasted beholder could use his MEA to shut his eye, use as many of his eyestalks as he could, then use the partial action to open it again.  If your DM calls it a free action, he can do this anyway. *



According to the book, the beholder can choose "once per round" to choose where (and whether) to use its antimagic. That's rather specific, and I'm not sure that _Haste_ would allow an exception.


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