# Rate the Star Wars Movies



## Zardnaar (Dec 2, 2018)

From bottom to the top. Counting live action ones and excluding the Ewok movies (I have not seen them since the 80's to rate them).

 The Clone Wars.

 If you thought the Phantom Menace was the worst Star Wars movie you would be wrong. Cutting this movie down via fast forward to an hour or so makes it semi watchable. Bad hammy acting/love scenes and Yoda doing a Cameo as Sonic the Hedgehog a major downs.

 The Phantom Menace.

 This movie had two main things wrong with it. 1. Jar Jar Binks, and 2. Jedi Knights and we got Jedi monks. The sense of disappointment at the time was rather large putting it mildly as I watched the midnight screening in 1999 and was more disappointed than enraged. It also has a few redeeming points over The Clone wars name Duel of Fates theme, Darth Maul and the lightsaber fight at the end. 

 The Last Jedi.

 My main problem with this movie was it threw out a lot of plot threads established by The Force Awakens and mostly had very little if any emotional attachment to any of the characters. And there was a bit of stupid in there as well along with the main plot being somewhat moronic ( a chase scene- in Star Wars). Watched this movie twice, IDK if I'll watch it again will likely depend on how sober I am or if episode 9 is any good and I want to do a trilogy binge watch.

 Revenge of the Sith

 While the prequels attract a lot of hate, I thought RotS was the best of the bunch and tied things up reasonably nicely and it was a masterpiece of logic compared with the Last Jedi. Has a few emotional moment in it as well which the 3 movies below it kind of lack. Bonus points for a relative lack of Jar Jar. 

Return of the Jedi.

 Often lambasted as the worst of the Star Wars movies pre 1999 it turns out you can do a lot worst. Still one of the best space battles ever filmed. Also saw it at the theater when I was 5 or 6 years old with my brother- I was scared of Jabba lol.

 Solo A Star Wars Story.

 Critics did not mid it the fanbase seemed have turned on it. I quite liked it and it was essentially a love letter to the fans.  

The Force Awakens.
 The main problem this film had was it was mostly a rehash of episode IV. While lacking originality perhaps that was what was needed after the prequel series. It felt like a Star Wars movie though although Rey comes across as a bit of a Mary Sue.  Not the actresses fault though more the writers but it means the emotional attachment is a bit less IMHO. 

 Rogue One.
 I liked this the best of the new Disney films and on a good day I might be generous and rate this and TFA over Episode IV. For a one and done deal I thought it was great, tied in well to Episode IV, good Vader cameo, and I liked  two leads and their sacrifice at the end of the movie. This makes you care about the characters and their story. You need that emotional attachment to the story/characters. All the good Star Wars movies, books, comics and games pull this off (KoToR, Thrawn, ).

 Star Wars: A New Hope. 
 The original and still one of the best (anywhere between 2-4 I think is fair). I was not alive in 1977 but I suspect this wold have been amazing at the time in terms of special effects. The story has held up well although it is a bit hokey in places now. 

 The Empire Strikes Back.

 Leia at her most badass, Vader unleashed, Luke at his most vulnerable, Fett, "I love you- I know" and "I am Your Father". The best Star Wars movie is also the one with the least George Lucas influence in it. No Ewoks, no whiny Anakin, and the tightest and most emotional connection to the story makes this the high point of the Star Wars film saga IMHO.


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## MarkB (Dec 2, 2018)

My line-up would be similar, but I'd rate Return of the Jedi higher - above both Solo and The Force Awakens. Ewoks are silly, but the final space battle and the Luke/Vader/Palpatine confrontation are awesome.

Solo didn't do much for me - decent supporting cast, but the protagonist didn't resonate for me, and didn't really capture the character of Han Solo.

The Force Awakens is very much a movie of two halves. I love everything up until they go to meet Maz, but everything after that feels too much like a re-hash, though there are still cool individual scenes.


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## ccs (Dec 2, 2018)

From BEST to WORST:

1) Star Wars (A New Hope) 
This is the self contained story that lit the fuse.  It gives you everything you need to enjoy the story, hints at setting details that spark the imagination, & alters movie F/X and changes the toy industries forever.
And you're right, it was _amazing_ to see it on the big screen at the time.

2) The Empire Strikes Back
One of the few movie sequels to ever be as good or better than the original.  While it's my favorite of all the SW movies, I have to rank it 2nd because the original had already blown me away a few years earlier.  This one is just more of an already great thing.
It's a little weaker than New Hope because it doesn't stand completely alone at the beginning & at the end you definitely know that there'll be a 3rd movie.

3) Return of the Jedi
Ewok silliness aside, it's pretty good.  And it wraps up the story being told.

4a) Roughly the 1st 1/2 of The Force Awakens.
It has all that excitement that New Hope had in that new characters & stuff get introduced & you're eager to see how it develops....  And then

4) Rogue One
Overall pretty good.  While I liked the characters & cast I didn't care about any of them because you know they won't matter once the credits role.  Still a good movie though.   

5) Episode I: The Phantom Menace
Overall I liked this one.  Yes, in spite of everything Lucas did to try & make me not: midochlorians??  Qui-Con Jinn's multiple examples of stupidity, making Anikan a 10 year old.  And that crap at least provides me the endless fun of mocking it....   
Jar Jar - the only thing I have against Jar Jar is that the shear un-sold glut of his action figure screwed up my stores inventory/future shipments of SW figures for a 2 years+ because of how SKUs were assigned/worked in our system at the time.  The system would read that we still had xxxx # of basic SW figures.  So unless we dropped below x, no further cases would be sent.  

5 & 6) Fighting for 5th & 6th place are two contenders; EPII:The Clone Wars & EPIII: Revenge of the Sith.
I think I like Clone Wars _slightly_ more than Sith, but they've both got enough poo in them to make this an exercise in hair splitting....

7) Solo
This is a bunch of crap.  It starts with the guy they tapped to play Solo.  It then proceeds to cram virtually everything about Solo prior to the original SW movie into 1 adventure.  And since it's the droid/computer that's responsible for actually making the impossible Kessel Run it even takes that away from Han. 
Fortunately this entry into the series doesn't have any impact on things.  Wether or not you ever see it means exactly nothing.  Unless you count the lost $ you doled out for your ticket.

8) The second 1/2 of The Force Awakens.
....and then it turns into some self-parodying clone of the original movie.  Is Abrahms trolling us?

9) The Star Wars Holiday Special (TV)
This very very bad.  We journey home with Chewbacca to celebrate "Life Day " with his son Lumpy.  And Bea Arthur sings.
But even this isn't the worst live-action SW has to offer us.  Oh no, for that you get: 

10) Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
This is so bad in every way that it makes me not want to see Episode IX.


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## billd91 (Dec 2, 2018)

My rankings:
1) Empire Strikes Back
2) Star Wars
3) Rogue One
4) Return of the Jedi
5/6) The Force Awakens and the Last Jedi (I LIKED the Last Jedi, in part, because it was so willing to set up hints of old tropes and then subvert them - though I admit, I think it does kind of write itself into a corner, but then I think The Force Awakens also does that a bit because neither JJ Abrams nor Rian Johnson seem to think or care much about the vastness of space nor the constraints of time)
7) Solo
8) The Phantom Menace (the best of the prequels because it has 2 more interesting characters than the others - Qui Gon and Darth Maul - plus the best lightsaber fight)
9) Revenge of the Sith
15) Attack of the Clones (downgraded from 10, even though I'm only ranking 10, because of overwhelming crapulence)

I will say one thing about the Star Wars films - the stunt coordination and lightsaber dueling has gotten better over the years. The Empire Strike Back and Return of the Jedi fights are good mainly because of the drama - particularly the way it matches with the male choir in Return of the Jedi. But the fighting in Phantom Menace, Force Awakens, and Last Jedi make the choreography of the original trilogy look clunky and quaint.


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## doctorbadwolf (Dec 2, 2018)

Best to worst. 

A New Hope. The only truly self contained story. One of the few SW movies I’ll watch on a random Tuesday instead of reading a book. Best space battle ever. I go back and forth between this and Jedi for number 1. 

Return of the Jedi. Multiple great battles. I like the Ewoks. Time advances and characters have grown in ways that make sense and feel satisfying. The single most important moment in the franchise. (I am a Jedi, like my father before me.) Luke wins by refusing to fight, not bc he is a badass or any such irrelevances, but because he shows mercy, and refuses to give in to fear, anger, or hate, and acts in peace and love, and faith in his father as a person, accepting the inherent risk in doing so. Nothing else in the franchise comes close to this scene. Nothing in Star Wars matters without this scene. Period. 

The Force Awakens. The characters are immediately engaging, the visuals are on point and evocative, the story is both classic and new, and my few problems with decisions like another Death Star and destroying a star system to up the ante are the only reason this isn’t the second best film. 

Empire. Second best lightsaber battle of the franchise, great story beats and character moments. Solid film all around, if often overrated. 

The Last Jedi. I love his movie. It being this low on the list is a testement to how good the others are, not to it being bad. I have quibbles, but it is very close wih TFA and Empire for me. 

Revenge of The Sith. There is so much good here, and also so much missed opportunity. We don’t care enough about the Jedi we see die. Duuku is boring and a waste of Christopher Lee. In spite of those flaws, it’s an emotionally satisfying movie overall, with a great space battle, and some solid characterization and visuals. 

Phantom Menace. Honestly if they redid Jar Jar’s VO with something less slapstick and problematic, this is a pretty good movie. Watch it with most Jar Jar moments exited out, and it’s good. Fix that AND the awkward dialogue with Padme and Anakin, and you’ve got a really good film.

Attack of the clones. Bleh. There is a good 1 hour movie here, and a really terrible whatever runtime is left from that. 

Rogue One. The Rebel Alliance doesn’t employ assassins. Period. This movie is, AFAIC, a complete mistake, regardless of its quality as a film. It’s also a gritty war movie where all the protagonists die for little reason. Some good moments, and great characters completely wasted by largely pointless deaths. Also not a single Bothan.


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## Shasarak (Dec 2, 2018)

My top three Star Wars films:

1) Return of the Jedi

2) Star Wars

3) Rogue One

Most disappointing) Solo; so much wasted potential plus it managed to take out the other planned movies as well. Sad.


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## Morrus (Dec 2, 2018)

Best to worst.

A New Hope
Empire
Return of the Jedi
Force Awakens
Rogue One
Last Jedi
Solo
Revenge of the Sith
Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones


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## Aeson (Dec 2, 2018)

Why do people think Bothans were involved in getting the plans for Death Star I? Was it in the novelization? I read it a long time ago but don't remember them being mentioned. Bothans played a part in getting the plans for Death Star II. I enjoyed the movie. I agree the deaths seemed pointless. 

Solo was ok. I enjoyed it also. I think so many said no one else can play this character, then proceeded to stick their fingers in theirs and yell nah nah nah. When the movie came out they folded their arms and held their breath. Just like Anakin folks had an idea what young Han would be like. When it didn't appear to live up to those expectations they threw tantrums. Was Han what we hoped for? No, but I think he was close. He would be different due to life experiences, but also just because they couldn't use a young Ford clone to play the part. It was fun and funny.

Both movies had what I look for in a Star Wars movie. Space battles, droids, aliens, stormtroopers, bad dialog, and plot holes big enough to fit a rancor. I would put both ahead of the Last Jedi, Force Awakens, and Phantom Menace. 

Worst to first

Last Jedi
Phantom Menace
Force Awakens
Attack of the Clones
Solo
Revenge of the Sith
Rogue One
New Hope
Empire
Return of the Jedi


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## Morrus (Dec 2, 2018)

Aeson said:


> Why do people think Bothans were involved in getting the plans for Death Star I?




Because they aren't paying attention.


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## Shasarak (Dec 3, 2018)

Aeson said:


> Solo was ok. I enjoyed it also. I think so many said no one else can play this character, then proceeded to stick their fingers in theirs and yell nah nah nah. When the movie came out they folded their arms and held their breath. Just like Anakin folks had an idea what young Han would be like. When it didn't appear to live up to those expectations they threw tantrums. Was Han what we hoped for? No, but I think he was close. He would be different due to life experiences, but also just because they couldn't use a young Ford clone to play the part. It was fun and funny.




For me the problem with Solo was never the actor, the problem was the story.

Although I did cheer when L3-37 was killed so there are good points in every movie.


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## Aeson (Dec 3, 2018)

Shasarak said:


> For me the problem with Solo was never the actor, the problem was the story.
> 
> Although I did cheer when L3-37 was killed so there are good points in every movie.




She was my favorite part. I should have had on my list of what I expect ; droids steal the show. I thought the story was fun. Like Rogue One it was a departure from the save damsel story of the original.  In the end I'll probably like all of the movies for one simple reason, they all took place a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. Good or bad, they give life to that world.


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## MarkB (Dec 3, 2018)

I should mention that, like The Force Awakens, I find The Last Jedi very much a movie of two halves - but in this case the two halves are more intertwined.

I enjoyed everything about the Rey / Luke / Kylo storyline, and the first half of the Finn / Rose storyline. I disliked most of the Rose / Finn storyline after the casino planet.

And I loathed the Poe / Resistance fleet storyline as an unending sequence of ludicrously bad tactical decisions on both sides, dragged down by the terrible lazily literalist execution of what is usually one of Star Wars's strengths - the "space combat = WW2 naval / air combat" trope.

I do love the final scene of the movie. The seemingly ordinary stable boy unconsciously reaching out with the Force to pick up the broom, then play-fighting with it as an imaginary lightsaber while contemplating Rose's Resistance ring is about the most perfect possible encapsulation of Star Wars's message of hope, optimism and heroes rising from humble origins.


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## Aeson (Dec 3, 2018)

MarkB said:


> I do love the final scene of the movie. The seemingly ordinary stable boy unconsciously reaching out with the Force to pick up the broom, then play-fighting with it as an imaginary lightsaber while contemplating Rose's Resistance ring is about the most perfect possible encapsulation of Star Wars's message of hope, optimism and heroes rising from humble origins.



And visualising our childhoods? Am I the only one to pretend to use the Force or use a broom handle as a lightsaber? What you said may be why I keep going back no matter how bad the movie seems.


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## Gladius Legis (Dec 3, 2018)

Best to worst:
1) Empire Strikes Back
2) Star Wars (A New Hope)
3) Return of the Jedi
4) Rogue One

*dropoff*
5) The Last Jedi
6) The Force Awakens

*dropoff*
7) Revenge of the Sith
8) Solo

*MASSIVE dropoff*
9) The Phantom Menace

*Drop this down a volcano*
10) Attack of the Clones


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## delericho (Dec 3, 2018)

Best to worst...

Star Wars (the original)
The Empire Strikes Back (this is probably the better film, but can't beat nostalgia)
Return of the Jedi

Rogue One (again, this is probably a better film than RotJ, but nostalgia...)
The Force Awakens (this impressed me a great deal the first time, but becomes less good every time I watch it)
Solo
The Last Jedi (this didn't particularly impress me the first time, and becomes less good every time I watch it)

The Phantom Menace
Revenge of the Sith (admittedly, this is much better if you skip half an hour in the middle. And mute the dialogue. Or watch a better film instead.)
Attack of the Clones


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## ccs (Dec 3, 2018)

Aeson said:


> Solo was ok. I enjoyed it also. I think so many said no one else can play this character, then proceeded to stick their fingers in theirs and yell nah nah nah. When the movie came out they folded their arms and held their breath. Just like Anakin folks had an idea what young Han would be like. When it didn't appear to live up to those expectations they threw tantrums. Was Han what we hoped for? No, but I think he was close. He would be different due to life experiences, but also just because they couldn't use a young Ford clone to play the part. It was fun and funny.




No I'm fine with someone else playing the role.  I mean, if we want more films featuring certain characters someone new has to do it....  It's the equivalent of the art changing throughout Batman comics over the years.  Some I've loved, some I hate, some (shrugs).  
I just didn't much like the guy they picked for the job this time.  Or the movie he was trying to do it in.


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## Dioltach (Dec 3, 2018)

I rewatched Solo last night, and I really enjoyed it. It adds so much colour to the lived-in galaxy (of the original trilogy, not the prequels, which are just a bit too shiny). So I'm ranking Solo up there with the original trilogy and Rogue One.

In my mind I also replace the Ewoks from _Jedi_ with Wookies. That makes for a much more awesome movie.


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## Imaculata (Dec 3, 2018)

Best to worst, starting with the best:

*The Empire Strikes Back* - I think most people will agree here.
*Star Wars* (AKA a New Hope) - Still holds up pretty good.
*Return of the Jedi* - The weakest of the three, but still a really good movie. I don't hate the Ewoks that much.

The middleground:

*The Force Awakens* - This movie is surprisingly good, but would have been better if the next director would have actually followed up on JJ's plot threads, instead of throwing them aside. But we'll get to the Last Jedi in a moment. TFA has an amazing opening act and gets the tone of Star Wars right.

*Solo a Star Wars story* - It's a pity that this movie suffered from The Last Jedi's poor reception. It's a lot of fun from start to finish and has a pretty solid script. It is surprising it is as good as it is, given the production issues.

*The Last Jedi* - I had very mixed feelings about this movie, which have only dipped more and more into the negative after seeing it. The movie has one fight that is really good, and does some cool new stuff with the Force that is really interesting. It also thinks that having no plot resolution is a good twist, is completely tonedeaf when it comes to inserting its humor, and sets up a big end battle, only to then not have it happen. Oh, and there's also a whole lot of meandering at a casino planet that serves no purpose to the plot.

*Revenge of the Sith* - It has a great opening act, and that's about it. There is just so much cringe in this film. For many this movie may be a guilty pleasure. But it's not a good movie at all. It is the moldy candle on top of the turd-cake. 

The bottom of the barrel:

*Rogue One* - An incoherent tonedeaf mess, sufficated by fanservice, and with no likable characters (or characters at all). Its worst crime is that there are no stakes... like, at all. Also, Darthvader is just thrown in because... Vader, and they manage to get his character wrong. But he has a lava castle now! Because who wouldn't want to live on top of lava, after having such fond memories of it?

*The Phantom Menace* - The real menace here are an annoying kid actor, and Jar Jar. Also known under its working title: How to suck the magic out of a mythology. This movie had many people in denial afterwards. Perhaps it was just a rough start, and the next film would course correct?

*The Clone Wars* - It helps if your lead is likeable. Also, George Lucas can't do romantic scenes to save his life, apparently. This movie's diabolical dialogue about sand will be parodied till the end of time. It also erased any hope that this trilogy would course correct.


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## Morrus (Dec 3, 2018)

Seems a lot of people agree that _Attack of the Clones _is the worst. So much so that they keep calling it _The Clone Wars_ instead!


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## Zardnaar (Dec 3, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Seems a lot of people agree that _Attack of the Clones _is the worst. So much so that they keep calling it _The Clone Wars_ instead!




Derp to many clones. We have Attack of the clones, The Clone Wars, Clone Wars, and The Clone Wars (animated).

 Apparently the big problem with The Last Jedi was there was no overall plan for episodes VII-IX so the director was allowed to more or less do whatever he wanted and IMHO did a poor job on following up on some of the plot hooks of the TFA. There was a lot of speculation about Snoke for example, but nope they Boba Fett'ed him. TFA was really good, not exactly original though.

 And they killed off Luke to early (should have been episode IX if at all), and now with Carrie's death all of the OT main characters/actors are dead.

 And theres still some lingering bad will online over burning the old legends stuff and then reintroducing it but worse (Thrawn for example). I got a buzz at the theatre from Rogue One/TFA and after TLJ it kinda felt like 1999 again with TPM. RotS is no masterpiece but I left happy although AotC set a low bar to beat. I think expectations have a bit to do with it. 

 Star Wars was great and they followed up with Empire. TFA was good and we got that.


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## delericho (Dec 3, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> There was a lot of speculation about Snoke for example, but nope they Boba Fett'ed him.




I actually thought that was one of the better moves in tLJ - it was something I _really_ didn't expect, and so thought was pretty cool.

However, this:



> Apparently the big problem with The Last Jedi was there was no overall plan for episodes VII-IX so the director was allowed to more or less do whatever he wanted...




Is a _major_ problem. Writing the middle chapter of a trilogy without knowing where the story is going is a boneheaded move.



> And they killed off Luke to early (should have been episode IX if at all), and now with Carrie's death all of the OT main characters/actors are dead.




In fairness, Carrie's death wasn't something they could really have planned for. Also, just because Luke is dead doesn't mean we've seen the last of him.

(Actually, the same is true of Snoke, too. Just because we haven't seen any evil Force ghosts yet doesn't mean they can't happen.)


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## Zardnaar (Dec 3, 2018)

delericho said:


> I actually thought that was one of the better moves in tLJ - it was something I _really_ didn't expect, and so thought was pretty cool.
> 
> However, this:
> 
> ...




 Not much character development though. Hell there was arguably more in Rogue One than TFA+ TLJ. Look at the OT, Luke was a scrub level 1 or 2, got trained leveled up, went to Death star, leveled up and then fought the Battle of Yavin, leveled up (lvl 4 or 5), roll credits. Got a bit cocky in ESB and had his ass handed to him. 

 Rey untrained, flies the Falcon like a boss, defeats a trained dark Jedi (trained by Luke and Snoke), and kicks ass in TLJ. Its also really boring although the actor is doing a better job than than Haydan and Hamil episode IV, the writing is not her fault. Her supporting cast is a lot weaker than the OT though I don't really care about Poe or any of the others and the villains are stealing the show (Kylo Ren and Hux). When Lando and Fett as support characters are way more interesting than most of the main cast in the Disney films you may have a problem. 

 And in Empire you knew Luke was special because of who he was, there was an explanation for it that made sense in universe (and he still got his butt handed to him by Vader). Snokes a chump, Rey is Mary Sue, Kylo throws tantrums. And we should care because? The Droids are also stealing the show (BB-8 and the Rogue One/Solo ones).


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## delericho (Dec 3, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> Not much character development though... (big snip)




Sure. tLJ has many big flaws, and I'm not going to defend many of them (indeed, I agree with basically everything in your post). I was just disagreeing on the specific point of Snoke's death.


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## doctorbadwolf (Dec 3, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Because they aren't paying attention.




Or because the very long standing joke is that all espionage jobs in the SW Galaxy involve Bothans?


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## Jester David (Dec 3, 2018)

1) _Empire Strikes Back_. It changes everything and shakes up the status quo like no one's business. Leia loves Han. Luke becomes a Jedi. Vader is Luke's father. Force Users can move objects with their mind! Jedi can be ghosts! The rebellion is on the ropes. Han is lost. Luke spends the entire more separated from everyone else. 
If released now, this movie would be way more polarising than _The Last Jedi_. 

2) _The Last Jedi._ Full of surprises as well. It made me excited about the franchise again after the mediocrity of _The Force Awakens_, and set the stage for an "anything could happen" final chapter. So many amazing performances and great, unexpected twists that just made sense. Of course the million-to-one plan would fail. The odds were a million-to-one! Of course the selfish codebreaker would betray everyone for money. That's what criminals do.
And at the climax, Luke returns and saves the entire resistance with the single most Jedi move ever, delaying an army without ever throwing a single punch, or lightsaber strike in the ultimate pacifistic victory. 

3) _A New Hope_. Imaginative and unique despite wearing its inspirations unapologetically on its sleeve. And a master class of worldbuilding through throw-away lines. 

4) _Rogue One._ Sneaks ahead of the pack for two standout elements. One, the absence of the Jedi and Skywalkers. It was the first Star Wars film without any, and the first to try and break out of that mold. But also the downer ending. In a time of constant franchises, the idea of killing off the entire cast still feels like a surprise. 

5) _Solo_ / _Return of the Jedi_. Tie, because they're both in the middle and demonstrate some general laziness. RotJ was decent, but really feels like a retread. Especially as the last half is basically pulling and recycling the planned climax of _A New Hope_. _Solo_ was more entertaining than it had any right to be, and worked despite making three of the biggest moments of Han's life all largely connected. But it's not nearly as bad as people think.

6) _Revenge of the Sith._ Decent enough. Nothing special. 

7) _Phantom Menace._ Not as bad as everyone thinks or remembers. It's failings are largely one of editing. I have a fan cut that makes some very minor tweaks, and it works quite well. And all the "boring politics" people whine about is a couple minutes at most. 

8) _Attack of the Clones._ Adequate. Soft in the middle. But the solid ending makes up for that. It's easier to forgive films with a good ending that leave you walking away happy. 

8) Saved for Episode IX. 

9) _Force Awakens._ This movie is . Unoriginal, uninspired dreck that completely and unabashedly milks the original trilogy. And somehow the science and scenes make less sense than anything else in Star Wars, which is an impressive feat. It completely and utterly fails at worldbuilding, characterisation, plotting, establishing motive, and many other aspects, and is held together by a frenetic pace and stop watch action scenes that never let you stop and think for long, otherwise you'd realise how terrible everything is. 
Say what you will about the prequels, at least they did something freakin' different. A completely different tone and feel, while still being Star Wars. Episode VII makes it feel like nothing has changed. If not for the familiar characters looking older, it could have been set a year after _The Return of the Jedi_.

10) Pause for effect.

11) _The Star Wars Holiday Special._ Yeah, this is so much worse than anything that you need to separate it from the rest of the films to demonstrate the magnitude of its horror.


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## Morrus (Dec 3, 2018)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Or because the very long standing joke is that all espionage jobs in the SW Galaxy involve Bothans?




I must've missed that long standing joke! Good one...


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## Jester David (Dec 3, 2018)

This is, of course, not including _Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure_ or _Battle for Endor_. 
Damn that opening 10 minutes of BfE. Holy ...

Or the _Clone Wars_ TV show which included the outright best Star Wars tales, as well as some of the worst. 
And _Rebels_, which is just in the middle somewhere.


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## Jester David (Dec 3, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> Not much character development though. Hell there was arguably more in Rogue One than TFA+ TLJ. Look at the OT, Luke was a scrub level 1 or 2, got trained leveled up, went to Death star, leveled up and then fought the Battle of Yavin, leveled up (lvl 4 or 5), roll credits. Got a bit cocky in ESB and had his ass handed to him.
> 
> Rey untrained, flies the Falcon like a boss, defeats a trained dark Jedi (trained by Luke and Snoke), and kicks ass in TLJ. Its also really boring although the actor is doing a better job than than Haydan and Hamil episode IV, the writing is not her fault. Her supporting cast is a lot weaker than the OT though I don't really care about Poe or any of the others and the villains are stealing the show (Kylo Ren and Hux). When Lando and Fett as support characters are way more interesting than most of the main cast in the Disney films you may have a problem.
> 
> And in Empire you knew Luke was special because of who he was, there was an explanation for it that made sense in universe (and he still got his butt handed to him by Vader). Snokes a chump, Rey is Mary Sue, Kylo throws tantrums. And we should care because? The Droids are also stealing the show (BB-8 and the Rogue One/Solo ones).




Rey was trained to fight and was probably a better fighter on Jakku than Luke ever was. (Where did he learn to fight? Yoda showed him how to lift rocks, not wield a lightsaber.)
And she beat an _injured _Kylo Ren who had been hit by Chewie's bowcaster, that had been shown to be able to send stormtroopers flying. 
Okay, it's weird how well she flies the Falcon. But then we need to ask how Luke can fly an X-wing so well. 

Snoke as a chump... well... he was always a lame Emperor rip-off anyway. Dying like a chump was the only interesting thing done with the character.


----------



## Tonguez (Dec 3, 2018)

A New Hope
Empire
Return of the Jedi
Force Awakens
Rogue One
Ewoks: The Battle for Endor
Last Jedi
Solo
Revenge of the Sith
Caravan of Courage: Ewok Adventures
Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones

oh and bring back Cindel Towani!!!!


----------



## MarkB (Dec 3, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> Rey untrained, flies the Falcon like a boss, defeats a trained dark Jedi (trained by Luke and Snoke), and kicks ass in TLJ. Its also really boring although the actor is doing a better job than than Haydan and Hamil episode IV, the writing is not her fault. Her supporting cast is a lot weaker than the OT though I don't really care about Poe or any of the others and the villains are stealing the show (Kylo Ren and Hux). When Lando and Fett as support characters are way more interesting than most of the main cast in the Disney films you may have a problem.



Poe didn't make much of an impact because they basically killed him off in the first act and then brought him back in the third with only the most minor of handwaves. The character is solid, he was just poorly handled.

And you didn't mention Finn. He's my favourite character in TFA - brought up as a stormtrooper in an evil army, conditioned for obedience from an early age, yet he still has the conscience to refuse to kill innocents, and after he's marooned on Jakku, parched and exhausted, still his first instinct when he sees someone in trouble is to run in unarmed to help them. For me, his story of overcoming his fears and finally facing up to the First Order surpasses Rey's character arc.



> And in Empire you knew Luke was special because of who he was, there was an explanation for it that made sense in universe (and he still got his butt handed to him by Vader). Snokes a chump, Rey is Mary Sue, Kylo throws tantrums. And we should care because? The Droids are also stealing the show (BB-8 and the Rogue One/Solo ones).



Frankly, I prefer that they (provisionally, pending Episode IX) made Rey's parents nobodies. Why shouldn't the next great Force user be just an otherwise-ordinary person rather than the child of a queen and space-Jesus? Isn't that a far better message to send?


----------



## Morrus (Dec 3, 2018)

MarkB said:


> Poe didn't make much of an impact because they basically killed him off in the first act and then brought him back in the third with only the most minor of handwaves.




He was originally dead in the TIE fighter crash. They brought him back as a late script change during filming.


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## MarkB (Dec 3, 2018)

Morrus said:


> He was originally dead in the TIE fighter crash. They brought him back as a late script change during filming.




I figured as much. That movie really feels like they had a completely different second half in mind when they filmed the first half.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Dec 3, 2018)

Morrus said:


> I must've missed that long standing joke! Good one...




You're telling me you never heard anything along the lines of, "How many Bothans died, tho?" in reference to espeionage, sabotage, etc, when discussing Star Wars media (and sometimes when discussing non SW media) from games to EU books? Really? That's pretty weird to me, since I've been hearing/seeing those jokes in pretty much every venue, online or off, I've ever discussed Star Wars or general nerd stuff, my entire life.


----------



## Imaculata (Dec 3, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Seems a lot of people agree that _Attack of the Clones _is the worst. So much so that they keep calling it _The Clone Wars_ instead!




I would correct it in my post, but frankly I don't give a damn. That movie does not deserve any more attention from me.


----------



## Morrus (Dec 3, 2018)

doctorbadwolf said:


> You're telling me you never heard anything along the lines of, "How many Bothans died, tho?" in reference to espeionage, sabotage, etc, when discussing Star Wars media (and sometimes when discussing non SW media) from games to EU books? Really? That's pretty weird to me, since I've been hearing/seeing those jokes in pretty much every venue, online or off, I've ever discussed Star Wars or general nerd stuff, my entire life.




I don’t really see any SW stuff except the movies. Sounds like a *great* joke though! 

Dude, what’s with the passive aggressiveness? Calm down, man! I haven’t heard your joke before.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Dec 3, 2018)

Morrus said:


> I don’t really see any SW stuff except the movies. Sounds like a *great* joke though!
> 
> Dude, what’s with the passive aggressiveness? Calm down, man! I haven’t heard your joke before.




I'm not being passive aggressive, so idk what you're talking about?


----------



## Jester David (Dec 3, 2018)

MarkB said:


> Poe didn't make much of an impact because they basically killed him off in the first act and then brought him back in the third with only the most minor of handwaves. The character is solid, he was just poorly handled.



Well, he was literally supposed to die until they wanted a familiar face in the X-wings and found the actor charming.


----------



## Shasarak (Dec 3, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> And in Empire you knew Luke was special because of who he was, there was an explanation for it that made sense in universe (and he still got his butt handed to him by Vader). Snokes a chump, Rey is Mary Sue, Kylo throws tantrums. And we should care because? The Droids are also stealing the show (BB-8 and the Rogue One/Solo ones).




The Droids are a bit hit or miss for me.  K-2SO was great, BB-8 was just a merchandising product and the Solo one was hilariously bad.


----------



## Jester David (Dec 3, 2018)

Morrus said:


> I don’t really see any SW stuff except the movies. Sounds like a *great* joke though!
> 
> Dude, what’s with the passive aggressiveness? Calm down, man! I haven’t heard your joke before.




Poor Manny Both-Hanz gets zero respect...


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Dec 4, 2018)

1. ESB
2. SW
3. R1
4. RotJ
5. TFA
6. Solo
7. RotS
8. AotC
9. TLJ
10. Ewoks Batte for Endor
11. Ewoks Caravan of Courage
12. TPM


----------



## Legatus Legionis (Dec 4, 2018)

.


----------



## jonesy (Dec 4, 2018)

The Empire Strikes Back: Everything works and the characters drive the story. John Williams was robbed of an Oscar.

Rogue One: The war movie I never knew I needed.

Star Wars (A New Hope): The rock solid original.

The Force Awakens: It really was a great start to a new story.

Solo: Much better than advertised, though it feels like it's taking too many cues from Firefly.

Return of the Jedi: Overrated, but basically alright. Goofier than I remembered.

The Clone Wars: Better than advertised. The only movie I can think of where it's appropriate to complain about it not having been a tv movie instead, as it's a pretty good start to the excellent tv-series of the same name.

Revenge of the Sith: There's a surprising amount of stupid filler in this movie that could have been cut away entirely to streamline everything. And instead of that filler, they could have included all those things that the plot skips over in its haste to get the characters to "where they need to be".

The Last Jedi: I have conflicted feelings about this movie. Occasionally awesome, other times infuriating.

The Phantom Menace: When the action scenes are the only thing worth watching. And only some of those.

Attack of the Clones: A CGI mess that only gets worse as it ages.


----------



## Mallus (Dec 4, 2018)

From best to worst, without commentary (for now):

1. Star Wars 
2. The Last Jedi
3. The Empire Strikes Back 
4. The Force Awakens/Return of the Jedi (tie)
5. Rogue One
6. Solo (this isn't a bad movie)
7. Revenge of the Sith (neither is this - closer to it, though) 
8. Attack of the Clones
9. The Phantom Menace


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## Ovinomancer (Dec 4, 2018)

Oh, is it time to argue about The Last Jedi, again?


----------



## Istbor (Dec 4, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> Not much character development though. Hell there was arguably more in Rogue One than TFA+ TLJ. Look at the OT, Luke was a scrub level 1 or 2, got trained leveled up, went to Death star, leveled up and then fought the Battle of Yavin, leveled up (lvl 4 or 5), roll credits. Got a bit cocky in ESB and had his ass handed to him.
> 
> Rey untrained, flies the Falcon like a boss, defeats a trained dark Jedi (trained by Luke and Snoke), and kicks ass in TLJ. Its also really boring although the actor is doing a better job than than Haydan and Hamil episode IV, the writing is not her fault. Her supporting cast is a lot weaker than the OT though I don't really care about Poe or any of the others and the villains are stealing the show (Kylo Ren and Hux). When Lando and Fett as support characters are way more interesting than most of the main cast in the Disney films you may have a problem.
> 
> And in Empire you knew Luke was special because of who he was, there was an explanation for it that made sense in universe (and he still got his butt handed to him by Vader). Snokes a chump, Rey is Mary Sue, Kylo throws tantrums. And we should care because? The Droids are also stealing the show (BB-8 and the Rogue One/Solo ones).




So much simplification in this post.

Though somehow, I agree with Zard in his OP.  I think the absolute worst movie of them all is The Attack of the Clones. That forced love story was so awful to me.  They tried to show Padme as this strong capable person.  A good fighter, and a good diplomat.  Totally independent.  Then tried to sell me that some angsty young man with Chosen one syndrome was able to woo her? I mean I guess... everyone has their thing, but I thought a lot better of this character that they tried to portray.  And they were like... cus plot baby.


----------



## MarkB (Dec 4, 2018)

Istbor said:


> I think the absolute worst movie of them all is The Attack of the Clones. That forced love story was so awful to me.  They tried to show Padme as this strong capable person.  A good fighter, and a good diplomat.  Totally independent.  Then tried to sell me that some angsty young man with Chosen one syndrome was able to woo her? I mean I guess... everyone has their thing, but I thought a lot better of this character that they tried to portray.  And they were like... cus plot baby.




What they did to Anakin is just as bad. Instead of giving us a good man struggling to control his darker impulses, we get a whiny brat with so little self-control that it's hard to conceive how he ever earned the status of Jedi in the first place, Chosen One or not. This should have been a sympathetic character that we grieve to see corrupted to the dark side, so that we can cheer to see his ultimate redemption.


----------



## Zardnaar (Dec 4, 2018)

Istbor said:


> So much simplification in this post.
> 
> Though somehow, I agree with Zard in his OP.  I think the absolute worst movie of them all is The Attack of the Clones. That forced love story was so awful to me.  They tried to show Padme as this strong capable person.  A good fighter, and a good diplomat.  Totally independent.  Then tried to sell me that some angsty young man with Chosen one syndrome was able to woo her? I mean I guess... everyone has their thing, but I thought a lot better of this character that they tried to portray.  And they were like... cus plot baby.




 Movie also had to much CGI, bad acting, weak plot, and silly over the top battles (Yoda's cameo as Sonic the Hedgehog).


----------



## RangerWickett (Dec 4, 2018)

Return of the Jedi
Empire Strikes Back
The entire Star Wars Rebels cartoon series if it's ever edited into a 20 hour film
Rogue One
The Force Awakens
Star Wars
Solo
The Last Jedi
The Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones
Revenge of the Sith

Basically, the more the movie cares about the concept of goodness resisting darkness, the more I like it. *Return of the Jedi* is the best in the series for this reason. Empire, Rebels, and Rogue One all got this. They're all great.

The Force Awakens is better than original Star Wars. I mean, it's the _same_ as original Star Wars, but with better acting and choreography, more emotion, arguably better music. The only thing it really lacks is an extra scene or two with Poe so we're more invested in his run on Starkiller at the end, and a bit more context and worldbuilding about _why_ the First Order was opposed to the Republic.

Solo was a fun heist, but doesn't have any Force stuff, so it almost doesn't feel like Star Wars to me. Then The Last Jedi's plot makes no dang sense.

All the prequels sucked on both the metric of "the Force matters" and "the plot makes sense." Plus the figures moving on screen were not characters, just action figures.


----------



## Jester David (Dec 4, 2018)

Ovinomancer said:


> Oh, is it time to argue about The Last Jedi, again?




Always in dispute, the _Last Jedi_ is.


----------



## delericho (Dec 5, 2018)

MarkB said:


> What they did to Anakin is just as bad. Instead of giving us a good man struggling to control his darker impulses, we get a whiny brat with so little self-control that it's hard to conceive how he ever earned the status of Jedi in the first place, Chosen One or not. This should have been a sympathetic character that we grieve to see corrupted to the dark side, so that we can cheer to see his ultimate redemption.




Agreed. In this regard the "Clone Wars" cartoon series is a vast improvement over the actual films. Indeed, it's almost worth suffering the prequels as a price for getting that series.


----------



## Zardnaar (Dec 5, 2018)

delericho said:


> Agreed. In this regard the "Clone Wars" cartoon series is a vast improvement over the actual films. Indeed, it's almost worth suffering the prequels as a price for getting that series.




Clone Wars cartoon + RoTS makes a better "trilogy" IMHO.


----------



## delericho (Dec 5, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> Clone Wars cartoon + RoTS makes a better "trilogy" IMHO.




Cut about half of RotS, and I'll agree. As it is, there's a middle section that is deadly dull.


----------



## Eltab (Dec 6, 2018)

MarkB said:


> What they did to Anakin is just as bad. Instead of giving us a good man struggling to control his darker impulses, we get a whiny brat with so little self-control that it's hard to conceive how he ever earned the status of Jedi in the first place, Chosen One or not. This should have been a sympathetic character that we grieve to see corrupted to the dark side, so that we can cheer to see his ultimate redemption.




Or, Youth Anakin should have been presented as something other than a cute helpful little kid.  He was born a slave and his mother has no husband / boyfriend; he ought to be:
- trying to be the man of the house (but has to learn it by observation and trial-and-error)
- has a strong attachment to his mother, so much so that even blinded-by-the-prophecy Qui-Jon must think carefully about separating them
- sullen and suspicious, tries to figure out how / if somebody is taking advantage of him
- has Wild Force User talent that just screams out to any trained user.  He cannot summon a lightsaber to his hand by thought alone, but when he wants something it just is where he needs it to be; people who get into a fight with him end up with fractures sprains and strains; him angry is like a whirlwind; and he feels a powerful inexplicable draw to _anybody_ who can train his talent.


----------



## Zardnaar (Dec 6, 2018)

Eltab said:


> Or, Youth Anakin should have been presented as something other than a cute helpful little kid.  He was born a slave and his mother has no husband / boyfriend; he ought to be:
> - trying to be the man of the house (but has to learn it by observation and trial-and-error)
> - has a strong attachment to his mother, so much so that even blinded-by-the-prophecy Qui-Jon must think carefully about separating them
> - sullen and suspicious, tries to figure out how / if somebody is taking advantage of him
> - has Wild Force User talent that just screams out to any trained user.  He cannot summon a lightsaber to his hand by thought alone, but when he wants something it just is where he needs it to be; people who get into a fight with him end up with fractures sprains and strains; him angry is like a whirlwind; and he feels a powerful inexplicable draw to _anybody_ who can train his talent.




 I always thought that TPM was unneeded and you see Anakin as a young man skipping the childhood thing. Attack of the Clones could have been Pt I just write it better- see previous comment about The Clone Wars cartoon + RoTS.


----------



## Imaculata (Dec 6, 2018)

RangerWickett said:


> The Force Awakens is better than original Star Wars. I mean, it's the _same_ as original Star Wars, but with better acting and choreography, more emotion, arguably better music. The only thing it really lacks is an extra scene or two with Poe so we're more invested in his run on Starkiller at the end, and a bit more context and worldbuilding about _why_ the First Order was opposed to the Republic.




Yeah, I feel like I half-agree. Of course... yes, it copies the original Star Wars, yet it also has a more diverse cast, a villain with more depth, and an unexpected twist at the end. It does a lot of things better than the original Star Wars. However, apart from Rey's Theme I feel most of the music is forgettable (the Last Jedi's music is much better). I also feel the attack on the Starkiller Base feels incredibly tacked on. It did not invoke nearly the same excitement as the Deathstar Run. But I do like the world building. There's a lot to like about TFA.

However, my appreciation of TFA has gone down slightly, due to the Last Jedi. I've often said in my reviews of TFA, that I am willing to turn a blind eye to plot holes in it, considering it is part of a trilogy. I expected all those answers to some of TFA's questions to come with the later movies. Because surely they would have planned all of this out... right? RIGHT? Wait... there was no plan? Disney, what the hell?!

See, that lowers TFA a bit in my view.



Shasarak said:


> The Droids are a bit hit or miss for me.  K-2SO was great, BB-8 was just a merchandising product and the Solo one was hilariously bad.





The only reason K-2SO was great, is because they gave him every funny line in the script, and made the rest of the characters dull cardboard cutouts.

BB8 had a few funny moments, like him sticking out his torch in TFA. But what they did with him in Last Jedi is extremely cringe. Yes, he is definitely a product to market to kids. One big R2D2 wannabe rolling toy. But I enjoyed him in TFA. I agree that L3-37 was pretty terri... wait... seriously... her name is L337 ?! Now I hate her more!


----------



## Zardnaar (Dec 6, 2018)

Imaculata said:


> Yeah, I feel like I half-agree. Of course... yes, it copies the original Star Wars, yet it also has a more diverse cast, a villain with more depth, and an unexpected twist at the end. It does a lot of things better than the original Star Wars. However, apart from Rey's Theme I feel most of the music is forgettable (the Last Jedi's music is much better). I also feel the attack on the Starkiller Base feels incredibly tacked on. It did not invoke nearly the same excitement as the Deathstar Run. But I do like the world building. There's a lot to like about TFA.
> 
> However, my appreciatrion of TFA has gone down slightly, due to the Last Jedi. I've often said in my reviews of TFA, that I am willing to turn a blind eye to plot holes in it, considering it is part of a trilogy. I expected all those answers to some of TFA's questions to come with the later movies. Because surely they would have planned all of this out... right? RIGHT? Wait... there was no plan? Disney, what the hell?!
> 
> ...




Generally I liked the Driods. BB-8 a lot more in TFA than TLJ.

 TFA was really good, but its essentially a remake of ANH for a new generation with the logic bigger is better. As I said Star Wars probably needed it though but perhaps a new trilogy in a different era could have kept things more original but with more Jedi/Sith or whatever.


----------



## Mallus (Dec 6, 2018)

Imaculata said:


> However, my appreciatrion of TFA has gone down slightly, due to the Last Jedi. I've often said in my reviews of TFA, that I am willing to turn a blind eye to plot holes in it, considering it is part of a trilogy. I expected all those answers to some of TFA's questions to come with the later movies. Because surely they would have planned all of this out... right? RIGHT? Wait... there was no plan? Disney, what the hell?!



My appreciation for TFA has gone down (a bit), too, but for the opposite reason. I think The Last Jedi is a much better movie, for a number of reasons, so TFA loses out in comparison. TFA still has it's 'instantly likable characters' thing going for it, and a thrilling pace, so credit where credit's due to Abrams and the cast. 

My concern is the final movie will waste time and energy answering questions that don't need addressing, or worse, giving different answers to questions TLJ answered brilliantly, namely, 'who are Rey's parents?'.


----------



## Zardnaar (Dec 6, 2018)

Mallus said:


> My appreciation for TFA has gone down (a bit), too, but for the opposite reason. I think The Last Jedi is a much better movie, for a number of reasons, so TFA loses out in comparison. TFA still has it's 'instantly likely characters' thing going for it, and a thrilling pace, so credit where credit's due to Abrams and the cast.
> 
> My concern is the final movie will waste time and energy answering questions that don't need addressing, or worse, giving different answers to questions TLJ answered brilliantly, namely, 'who are Rey's parents?'.




 I'm kind of fine if Reys parents are nobodies but they should not have made an issue with it in the vision scene in TFA. It sets expectations for example and if you swerve the audience you get the reactions to it that TLJ didn't need. Plenty of the old EU have Jedi characters that are "nobodies" but they don't recycle Lukes back ground for them where it is implied that it is a big deal. 

 And there are other back grounds that are not a rehash of Lukes they could have giving her and if they wanted a twist perhaps look at Revan from KoToR and make an original back ground with a clever twist rather than imply one thing and pull a swerve. Or just don't make her back ground that relevant to begin with.


----------



## Jester David (Dec 6, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> I'm kind of fine if Reys parents are nobodies but they should not have made an issue with it in the vision scene in TFA. It sets expectations for example and if you swerve the audience you get the reactions to it that TLJ didn't need. Plenty of the old EU have Jedi characters that are "nobodies" but they don't recycle Lukes back ground for them where it is implied that it is a big deal.



That problem wasn't with the film but with the fans. It works just fine in the film: she was counting down the time she was alone, she wanted to go back to Jakku, and she had a vision of being abandoned. That was her arc: learning to live with the fact she had been left on her own and they were never coming back. Which Maz Kanata says outright.
_At no point_ does it imply her parents were anyone special. 

That was all us. Again, the problem comes from the fans. Not the film. The fans.
The expectation that she was somebody was what people read into the movie. Largely because of the parental twist of _Empire Strikes Back_. People expected them to do the same thing again. Again.
Then the sequel came out and didn't cater to the wild theories everyone had been fan waking themselves raw over for a full two years and somehow that made it a bad film....

*We *set the expectations. It's not the responsibility of the film to pat us on the head, give us a lollipop, and reward us for wildly speculating. 

It's not like the film would have been better if Rey had been a named character's child or grandchild. At best that just creates more questions and continuity problems. 
The most interesting part of _The Force Awakens_ wasn't the revelation of Kylo Ren's parentage. Because everyone had guessed beforehand. No one was surprised, as there were literally two options. 



Zardnaar said:


> And there are other back grounds that are not a rehash of Lukes they could have giving her and if they wanted a twist perhaps look at Revan from KoToR and make an original back ground with a clever twist rather than imply one thing and pull a swerve. Or just don't make her back ground that relevant to begin with.



But again... THAT WAS A PROBLEM OF _THE FORCE AWAKENS_. 
Because 90% of that movie was a giant rehash of _A New Hope_.


----------



## MoonSong (Dec 6, 2018)

Here's my probably unpopular take (Not including Solo, as I couldn't watch it. Star wars movies are supposed to last at least a month in exhibition. How was I to know this time would be different? No holiday Special as I never watched it)

First let's start by the middle of the road

The enjoyable movies.- Movies I like, that I could watch on a loop. 
6 The Eewooks.- Fun light-hearted movie where everybody lives, almost like a fairy tale. 
5 The Phantom Menace.- This was my actual intro to the franchise.
4 Return of the Jedi.- An idealistic tale, redemption, victory, happy endings, the light at the end of the tunnel

The Meh movies.- Movies I don't particularly care for
7 Attack of the Clones.- Ok, this one is Obi-wan's adventure, and a great Eureka moment, but not something I want to watch often.
8 The Last Jedi.- I can't say I didn't enjoy it. But the casino subplot and pacing hurt the overall movie.

Now the best ones and the worst ones.


My top three 
3 Revenge of the Sith.- The best of the prequels.
2 Rogue one.- An amazing war movie that let's the Empire be scary and ups the stakes for a New Hope. Has the best droid -sorry chopper- and I can't anybody say the word hope without breaking into tears after it. 
1 Empire Strikes Back.- The best movie ever.

The bottom of the barrel 
9 A New Hope.- Slow, formulaic, this thing hasn't aged up well for me. Way better in a post-Rogue One world
10 The Force Awakens.- Too derivative, too formulaic. Robbed Han and Leia of a happy ending, made Luke a worse person. Many claim the Last Jedi mocked their childhood, well this movie did that for me with all those gotcha moments thrown at the prequel trilogy.  
11 Battle for Endor.-A grimdark sequel to a lighthearted movie that basically undoes the happy ending.


----------



## MoonSong (Dec 6, 2018)

Jester David said:


> That problem wasn't with the film but with the fans. It works just fine in the film: she was counting down the time she was alone, she wanted to go back to Jakku, and she had a vision of being abandoned. That was her arc: learning to live with the fact she had been left on her own and they were never coming back. Which Maz Kanata says outright.
> _At no point_ does it imply her parents were anyone special.
> 
> That was all us. Again, the problem comes from the fans. Not the film. The fans.
> ...




That's probably why I kind of like the Last Jedi, I went out of my way to arrive as a blank state to the movie theater. I avoided trailers, reviews, social networks and youtube channels. I had no pet theories, I just wanted to see how they were going to fix the mess left by the force awakens. Somehow they made everything worse, but the carnage was fun to watch. (Except for the casino scene, that thing went out forever. And I would have loved for Finn to have made that heroic sacrifice, it would have saved so many lives and completed his character arc... )


----------



## Jester David (Dec 6, 2018)

MoonSong said:


> Except for the casino scene, that thing went out forever.



The whole Canto Bight bit was maybe 5-10 minutes. 
It feels much longer than it is.


----------



## MoonSong (Dec 6, 2018)

Jester David said:


> The whole Canto Bight bit was maybe 5-10 minutes.
> It feels much longer than it is.




Really? I would have sworn it was like half an hour at least. At least the reality ensues at the end pays off. Del toro definitively sold it. 

In fact I kind of like that part of TLJ, the crew constantly screwing up the million to one chances that Han and company routinely could achieve. That makes the original party more special by comparison. Honestly Rey, Rose, Finn and Poe are amateurs.


----------



## Zardnaar (Dec 6, 2018)

MoonSong said:


> That's probably why I kind of like the Last Jedi, I went out of my way to arrive as a blank state to the movie theater. I avoided trailers, reviews, social networks and youtube channels. I had no pet theories, I just wanted to see how they were going to fix the mess left by the force awakens. Somehow they made everything worse, but the carnage was fun to watch. (Except for the casino scene, that thing went out forever. And I would have loved for Finn to have made that heroic sacrifice, it would have saved so many lives and completed his character arc... )




Same I went in more or less blind, same with TPM and TFA. At least when I left the theater it was slight disappointment vs a lot with TPM. Rogue One and TFA different reaction.

 Expectations definitely come into it. After the prequels and the old EU New Jedi Order and Fate of the Jedi my expectaitons for TF were low. After TFA and Rogue One I expected more. When Hux is the best character in the movie you might have a problem.


----------



## Aeson (Dec 7, 2018)

MoonSong said:


> That's probably why I kind of like the Last Jedi, I went out of my way to arrive as a blank state to the movie theater. I avoided trailers, reviews, social networks and youtube channels. I had no pet theories, I just wanted to see how they were going to fix the mess left by the force awakens. Somehow they made everything worse, but the carnage was fun to watch. (Except for the casino scene, that thing went out forever. And I would have loved for Finn to have made that heroic sacrifice, it would have saved so many lives and completed his character arc... )




I'd like to have seen Finn make that sacrifice also. I was not impressed with him at all. Poe made for a more interesting character. I feel for Rose. Finn is into Rey so he'll never return her feelings. Allow Rose to suffer two major loses (her sister, and Finn) build her up to be major character. It could have been a better way to go. Now we have a soapy love triangle.....wait didn't they try that before? Maybe Rose is Finn's long lost twin sister.


----------



## MoonSong (Dec 7, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> Same I went in more or less blind, same with TPM and TFA. At least when I left the theater it was slight disappointment vs a lot with TPM. Rogue One and TFA different reaction.
> 
> Expectations definitely come into it. After the prequels and the old EU New Jedi Order and Fate of the Jedi my expectaitons for TF were low. After TFA and Rogue One I expected more. When Hux is the best character in the movie you might have a problem.




I was a blank slate when I watched TPM. I wasn't interested in SW at all before that point.Ewan McGregor, Liam Neeson and Ray Park hooked me into SW. ^_^ 


Aeson said:


> I'd like to have seen Finn make that sacrifice also. I was not impressed with him at all. Poe made for a more interesting character. I feel for Rose. Finn is into Rey so he'll never return her feelings. Allow Rose to suffer two major loses (her sister, and Finn) build her up to be major character. It could have been a better way to go. Now we have a soapy love triangle.....wait didn't they try that before? Maybe Rose is Finn's long lost twin sister.




I'm sorry but you are incorrect, Finn's one and true love is Poe. n_n


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## Aeson (Dec 7, 2018)

MoonSong said:


> I'm sorry but you are incorrect, Finn's one and true love is Poe. n_n




Actually, I'm not convinced Finn is not Finn's one true love. But a love triangle between Finn, Poe, And Rey would have the SJWs creaming their nongender specific underpants.


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## delericho (Dec 7, 2018)

Aeson said:


> Actually, I'm not convinced Finn is not Finn's one true love. But a love triangle between Finn, Poe, And Rey would have the SJWs creaming their nongender specific underpants.




Surely Poe's one true love is BB-8?


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## pukunui (Dec 7, 2018)

Oh gosh, I don’t think I can do a proper overall ranking. I can definitely rate by group, though. Here goes:

*Original Trilogy*
I was born in 1981, so I grew up watching these on the small screen.* _The Empire Strikes Back_ has always been my favorite, though _Return of the Jedi_ is good too. I do like _A New Hope_, but I feel it hasn’t aged all that well compared to the other two.

OT Ranking:
1) _The Empire Strikes Back_
2) _Return of the Jedi_
3) _A New Hope_

_*I did see the Special Editions in the theaters. While they are mostly abominable, I somewhat surprisingly find the ESB version to be fairly palatable. I think you could argue that it's because ESB is so close to being perfect that even George Lucas couldn't ruin it!_


*Prequel Trilogy*
In 1999, I was fresh out of high school and super-excited at the prospect of finally getting to see a brand new Star Wars film at the theater! Well ... let's just say, for only the second time in my life, I found myself wanting to walk out of the theater in disgust. (The first time had been the year before, when I went to see Van Damme's _Knock Off_. In hindsight, it would seem I was a bit of a masochist in my late teens.)

I hated _The Phantom Menace_ so much that I didn't bother to go see the next two prequels at the theater. In fact, I didn't watch either of them until years later. I agree that _Attack of the Clones_ is hands down the worst of them all. The fundamental wrongness of Anakin and Padme's relationship aside, the movie is just one long snoozefest. Even the action sequences are boring. (Although, unlike       [MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION], I enjoy Yoda’s Sonic the Hedgehog impressions!)

_Revenge of the Sith_, on the other hand, is a noticeable improvement. Still not as good as any of the originals, but good enough that it’s the only one of the prequels I have on DVD. I like the novelization even better. It’s surprisingly well-written and does a much better job of making Anakin’s fall believable.

PT Ranking:
1) _Revenge of the Sith_
2) _The Phantom Menace_
3) _Attack of the Killer Tomatoes Clones_


*Sequel Trilogy*
I like _The Force Awakens_. I don’t mind that it’s essentially a reboot of ANH. I don’t mind that Rey is a bit of a Mary Sue. I *do* mind JJ Abrams’ complete disregard for the vastness of space (something that irked me about his Star Trek reboot as well). 

I also find Disney/Lucasfilm’s unwillingness to answer most of the questions posed in TFA frustrating. I don’t mind that TLJ had very few answers in it (although I did at first) but they won’t even give us the answers by other means (eg. novels, visual dictionaries, etc). Is Starkiller Base the planet Ilum? I want to know! Enough with the teasing!

I have come to like most of _The Last Jedi_ as well. I think there are some parts I won’t ever like, such as the lengthy space chase and Leia’s Mary Poppins impression, but there is still lots I do like about it. All the porgs, for instance.

I am curious to see whether Ep IX can wrap things up satisfactorily.

ST Ranking:
1) _The Force Awakens_
2) _The Last Jedi_


*Star Wars Stories*
_Rogue One_ is awesome and may even be my second favorite overall after ESB. I feel it does a great job of capturing the feel of the original films, and I love that it's essentially a _Guns of Navarone_-style war movie set in the SW universe. 

One sad thing for me, though, is that I feel like the dramatic impact of the Rebels’ sacrifices in _Rogue One_ is cheapened by the fact that, a mere thirty years later, we’re right back where we started with the galaxy under the sway of a tyrannical empire.

I also really enjoyed _Solo_. Its dismal box office performance made me sad, especially because, after _Rogue One_, I was looking forward to a whole slew of stand-alone Star War stories. I wonder if we’ll ever see anymore.


*TV Shows and Other Media*
I think I've seen all of the Clone Wars stuff: the "movie" (which is literally just a bunch of episodes strung together), all six seasons of the show, plus the original Tartakovsky series. As others have said, there's some really excellent stuff there but also some real crap.

I haven't seen all of Rebels yet, but I've enjoyed everything I have seen so far. 

I'm cautiously optimistic about the announced Cassian Andor and Mandalorian live action shows. I'd like to watch them but I'm not sure I'll be able to, since they'll be behind the Disney streaming paywall.

I've only read a small smattering of SW novels and comics, most of which are no doubt apocryphal "Legends" now. Most of the books were rubbish, with the exception of the _Revenge of the Sith_ novelization. That's a real gem, right there. 

In terms of video games, I started to play KotOR once but found the UI too clunky and never got off the starting planet. I think that was the only one I ever tried playing.

I also used to play SWSE and still have all the books. The game was fun at first but eventually its mechanical flaws got to be too much for me. I don’t think the d20 system is a good fit for Star Wars. I doubt I’ll ever play it again.



The only other thing I'd like to say is that, as a father of three daughters, I appreciate the effort Disney has made to include more strong female characters in the franchise. Some of them are definitely better role models than others, but I’ll take them all over Barbie and her sisters any day!


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## Zardnaar (Dec 7, 2018)

Me niece is 9 years old and she loves Star Wars. Her face lit up when she found out my Star Wars comics, books, and Lego Star Wars on the Xbox One. Her uncle also lets her play Fortnite on the PS4 and played it with them. 

 Said uncle also played Fortnite with his 12 year old Nephew, Magic the Gathernig with his 13 yo nephew and piggy backs for his 8 year old niece. The MtG one might be corruptible to D&D. Their dad doesn't get Magic or video games. "Didn't you play D&D and Magic in the 90's" (he bought me 2E Tome of Magic). Erm cough cough.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 7, 2018)

delericho said:


> Surely Poe's one true love is BB-8?




 I had a thing for BB-8 in TFA but they ruined him in TLJ. 

 Driod in rebels is also funny along with HK-47 in KoToR. Driod acting school must be good.


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## pukunui (Dec 7, 2018)

Chopper is definitely one of the best droids.


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## billd91 (Dec 7, 2018)

MoonSong said:


> Really? I would have sworn it was like half an hour at least. At least the reality ensues at the end pays off. Del toro definitively sold it.
> 
> In fact I kind of like that part of TLJ, the crew constantly screwing up the million to one chances that Han and company routinely could achieve. That makes the original party more special by comparison. Honestly Rey, Rose, Finn and Poe are amateurs.




Given the role Last Jedi plays in the narrative structure of the trilogy, I'm not really seeing this. In Empire, Luke loses a hand and has his soul crushed, Han is frozen in carbonite, Leia and Chewbacca barely escape the Cloud City - and this after a series of harrowing events in the Falcon because of Han and Chewie's failures at ship maintenance. Last Jedi plays a similar role in the structure - the heroes take their beatings. They may learn a few things, grow as characters, and gain some resources for the next movie's ultimate triumph but they take considerable lumps on the way.


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## Jester David (Dec 7, 2018)

Aeson said:


> Actually, I'm not convinced Finn is not Finn's one true love. But a love triangle between Finn, Poe, And Rey would have the SJWs creaming their nongender specific underpants.



I am very much shipping that big poly relationship. Esapecially after Rey met Poe.

But it won’t happen. Even thought China doesn’t give an eff about Star Wars, they’re still too big of a box office to upset with positive portrayals of homosexuality. Ditto most of Eastern Europe, Russia, and the like.


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## Mercurius (Dec 7, 2018)

I see it in tiers...

FIRST TIER: The Classics
1. Star Wars: A New Hope
2. Empire Strikes Back
3. Return of the Jedi

_(Huge gap)
_
SECOND TIER (Best of the Rest)
4. The Force Awakens
5. Rogue One
6. Revenge of the Sith

_(Moderate gap)
_
THIRD TIER: Meh
7. Solo
8. The Phantom Menace

_(Moderate gap)
_
FOURTH TIER: Apoplexy!
9. Attack of the Clones
10. The Last Jedi

-------------
I can't decide whether I like A New Hope or Empire better. The latter is the better film, but the first is more complete and has that first love quality to it. Return of the Jedi was both the best and worst of the original trilogy; the scenes with Luke, Vader and the Emperor are the best in the entire series, but the ewoks somewhat tarnish things, and I'm not in love with the Death Star rehash. These are films I will re-watch every few years, and have seen all of them at least a dozen times.

Second tier were all enjoyable films with much to offer, but also significant issues. Probably no more than a single re-watch.

Third tier aren't exactly offensive, and had some positive elements, but ultimately forgettable (or memorable in not so great ways). But where Solo was just mediocre to fairly good, the Phantom Menace had some really good parts (Liam Neeson, Obi-Wan, Darth Maul, great sets), it also had some terrible stuff (Ani, Jar-Jar, pod-race announcer).

Fourth tier...shudder.


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## dragoner (Dec 7, 2018)

I would rate them 1. Empire Strikes Back, a great ethereal quality which speaks "Space Opera" to me. 2. Rogue One, A motley crew, great cast of characters, that plucked at the heart strings in the end. 3. A New Hope, and odd bird of a movie, cutting it's own style (and creating it's own tropes). The rest are ok, I don't hate them, I just don't think they rise above or to the level of the top 3.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 8, 2018)

pukunui said:


> Chopper is definitely one of the best droids.




Yeah that what I mean.


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## Imaculata (Dec 8, 2018)

Mallus said:


> My concern is the final movie will waste time and energy answering questions that don't need addressing, or worse, giving different answers to questions TLJ answered brilliantly, namely, 'who are Rey's parents?'.




My biggest issue with The Last Jedi, was that TFA had set up some revelations, which were then answered by TLJ with "Surprise, there is no revelation!". And that annoyed me, and still does. If the twist is that there is no twist, please think of something better. 

Don't set up a big end battle, and then surprise us with no battle at all. Sometimes it is okay to give people what they are hoping for, even if it is predictable. This was something TFA was cricized for a lot, but honestly it was probably also its strength. It was by the numbers and mostly stuff we'd seen before, but it didn't pull a disappointment out of a hat, like TLJ did. Killing off the main bad guy is another one of those things. Yeah, it was surprising, but now you still have one movie to go, without your main antagonist. The real twist that would have redeemed TLJ, was if Rey had turned rogue-jedi and truly teamed up with Kylo Ren. For a moment it seemed to be going in that direction, before they quickly hit the brakes, and avoided something truly surprising.

My biggest concern for the third movie, is that they will need to do so much course correcting to save this trilogy, that it will derail everything. TLJ left Disney a mess, which is 100% their own fault for not setting out a full plot before hand.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 8, 2018)

Imaculata said:


> My biggest issue with The Last Jedi, was that TFA had set up some revelations, which were then answered by TLJ with "Surprise, there is no revelation!". And that annoyed me, and still does. If the twist is that there is no twist, please think of something better.
> 
> Don't set up a big end battle, and then surprise us with no battle at all. Sometimes it is okay to give people what they are hoping for, even if it is predictable. This was something TFA was cricized for a lot, but honestly it was probably also its strength. It was by the numbers and mostly stuff we'd seen before, but it didn't pull a disappointment out of a hat, like TLJ did. Killing off the main bad guy is another one of those things. Yeah, it was surprising, but now you still have one movie to go, without your main antagonist. The real twist that would have redeemed TLJ, was if Rey had turned rogue-jedi and truly teamed up with Kylo Ren. For a moment it seemed to be going in that direction, before they quickly hit the brakes, and avoided something truly surprising.
> 
> My biggest concern for the third movie, is that they will need to do so much course correcting to save this trilogy, that it will derail everything. TLJ left Disney a mess, which is 100% their own fault for not setting out a full plot before hand.




Kylo is not bad as such but not as the BBEG. He threw tantrums in TFA, and was a chump as well. 

 One thing we have not seen in live action is a female Sith/Darksider (excluding one of the Ewok movies).


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## Jester David (Dec 8, 2018)

Imaculata said:


> My biggest issue with The Last Jedi, was that TFA had set up some revelations, which were then answered by TLJ with "Surprise, there is no revelation!". And that annoyed me, and still does. If the twist is that there is no twist, please think of something better.



Can you think of a twist they could have done that the fanbase didn't think of in the two years between movies? 
That would work and not seem crazy forced, overly complicated, or just create more plot hole.

Honestly, I think the "no revelation" was the _only _really surprising thing they could have done. 
Because I heard it all: Luke's kid, Leia's kid, Obi-Wan's grandkid, Ezra Bridger's kid, Qui-gon's grandkid, child of midichlorians like Anakin, Palpatine/ Sidious' kid, female clone of Palpatine/ Sidious, female clone of Luke from his severed hand, Count Dooku's grandkid, and so on. 
Most of which just end up requiring a flowchart and ten minute flashback to explain and fill in the details... Or should just end with Rey going "What... *who*?"



Imaculata said:


> Don't set up a big end battle, and then surprise us with no battle at all. Sometimes it is okay to give people what they are hoping for, even if it is predictable. This was something TFA was cricized for a lot, but honestly it was probably also its strength. It was by the numbers and mostly stuff we'd seen before, but it didn't pull a disappointment out of a hat, like TLJ did.



Fan service has its place. But I think that was the prior movie and _Rogue One_ and _Solo_. 
I mean, I _*loved*_ the fairly needless "Vader is a baddass" scene at the end of _Rogue One_. But I don't need that in ever movie.



Imaculata said:


> Killing off the main bad guy is another one of those things. Yeah, it was surprising, but now you still have one movie to go, without your main antagonist.



From a narrative sense, it works really well: with Episode IX being the last film in the "Skywalker Saga", killing Snoke really puts the focus squarely on Kylo Ren and lets him take the role as primary antagonist. His defeat ends that story. 

It's kinda doing the opposite of the original trilogy where Vader is diminished over time, and basically becomes a glorified henchman by the end.



Imaculata said:


> The real twist that would have redeemed TLJ, was if Rey had turned rogue-jedi and truly teamed up with Kylo Ren. For a moment it seemed to be going in that direction, before they quickly hit the brakes, and avoided something truly surprising.



Meh. We've seen that before in the prequels with Anakin falling, with the protagonists becoming the new Big Bad. And, again, it takes the spotlight away from Kylo Ren.

I'm happier with the idea of focusing on Ren and bringing in the Knights of Ren as his minions. And focusing on the power struggle between Ren and Hux for control of the First Order.


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## Morrus (Dec 8, 2018)

Imaculata said:


> . The real twist that would have redeemed TLJ, was if Rey had turned rogue-jedi and truly teamed up with Kylo Ren. For a moment it seemed to be going in that direction, before they quickly hit the brakes, and avoided something truly surprising.




Huh? It would have surprised you if they did the thing you were expecting?


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## Imaculata (Dec 9, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Huh? It would have surprised you if they did the thing you were expecting?




It would have surprised me if they had done what I were hoping they would do at that moment. Instead they kind of flirt with a cool premise, and abandon it. Subverting audience expectations isn't always a good thing, if the turn sucks.


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## Morrus (Dec 9, 2018)

Imaculata said:


> It would have surprised me if they had done what I were hoping they would do at that moment.




But... that’s the exact opposite of a surprise.


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## Eltab (Dec 9, 2018)

Imaculata said:


> Subverting audience expectations isn't always a good thing, if the turn sucks.



I read the plot (and metaplot as revealed to date) of this trilogy as more like "Yanking the audience's chains" than "subverting audience expectations".  It's like Disney is going out of their way to mess up the story and storyline.


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## Ovinomancer (Dec 9, 2018)

So, informally, just about everyone I know that dislikes this movie has been a fan of the pre-Disney EU.  I wasn't, and I like TLJ.  I wonder how widespread this is, given that the movie was pretty well received outside of a smallish and loud core of die-hard SW fandom.


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## Imaculata (Dec 9, 2018)

Morrus said:


> But... that’s the exact opposite of a surprise.




Not entirely. It was a surprise going into the movie. But once the movie started heading slightly in that direction, I was genuinely excited at what they might do. Instead, as stated above, they were just yanking our chains a bit.

And that's exactly my problem with all this. It is very easy to "yank the audience's chains", and to have people mistake that for being an unexpected twist. But it takes effort to actually write a satisfying plot. It felt like the movie went out of its way to constantly yank those chains, and then have no satisfying resolution to it.



Ovinomancer said:


> So, informally, just about everyone I know that dislikes this movie has been a fan of the pre-Disney EU.  I wasn't, and I like TLJ.  I wonder how widespread this is, given that the movie was pretty well received outside of a smallish and loud core of die-hard SW fandom.




I consider myself a pretty big Starwars fan. I loved the original trilogy, hated the prequels, loved TFA, and hated Rogue One (a movie which everyone else seems to love, God knows why). I'm not anti-Disney, not even remotely. I judge a product on its own merits. If it's good it's good, and if it's bad then it's bad, regardless of whether Disney or Lucas made it. I don't care who made it, I care about the final product.

There are parts of TLJ that I enjoyed, and I tried really hard to enjoy it. But unlike TFA, it didn't take me along for a ride. There were a lot of elements that just didn't work. Some hokey acting at the start, some misplaced humor that felt not in line with the tone of the rest of a scene, and some twists that weren't really twists, but the afore mentioned 'yanking of chains'. Occasionally I was into it. The opening bombing scene was pretty good, and I loved the big fight with Rey and Kylo Ren versus Snoke's guards. I could even get onboard with some of the interesting stuff they did in regards to Rey's visions, the way she connected with Kylo Ren. I thought that was really well done. It wasn't until the revelation in regards to Rey's parents, that I felt really disappointed. There was so much they could have done with that, and they just really dropped the ball. The odd thing is, that it felt like the director thought he was really smart with that 'twist'. It's not. It's dumb and disappointing.



Jester David said:


> Can you think of a twist they could have done that the fanbase didn't think of in the two years between movies?
> That would work and not seem crazy forced, overly complicated, or just create more plot hole.




I think there are a lot of things they could have done. First of all, I have no issue with a fanbase getting a plotpoint right. George RR Martin (writer of Game of Thrones) has often said that even if fans guess his twists correctly, he still wouldn't want to change it, because if he did all the hints leading up to that twist would no longer make sense. Besides, it is impossible for fans not to guess correctly if you give the entire planet years to think about it. Fans will go through every possibility. And I am in agreement with Mr Martin here, just stick to your guns and stay the course.

That said, could they have come up with something that (most) people didn't expect? I think so. Bare in mind, I am no script writer, but just off the top of my head: The twist could have been that she had no parents at all.



Jester David said:


> Fan service has its place. But I think that was the prior movie and _Rogue One_ and _Solo_.
> I mean, I _*loved*_ the fairly needless "Vader is a baddass" scene at the end of _Rogue One_. But I don't need that in ever movie.




Oh, I hated that scene.




Jester David said:


> From a narrative sense, it works really well: with Episode IX being the last film in the "Skywalker Saga", killing Snoke really puts the focus squarely on Kylo Ren and lets him take the role as primary antagonist. His defeat ends that story.




But it doesn't work for me, because we have barely gottten to know Snoke. Who Snoke is, and what his powers are, are some of the plot hooks set up by TFA. You cannot then leave those hooks hanging and kill him off before answering those questions. 



Jester David said:


> It's kinda doing the opposite of the original trilogy where Vader is diminished over time, and basically becomes a glorified henchman by the end.




I feel his transition into being the big bad isn't earned at this point. 



Jester David said:


> Meh. We've seen that before in the prequels with Anakin falling, with the protagonists becoming the new Big Bad. And, again, it takes the spotlight away from Kylo Ren.




I don't think it would. If both characters turned away form their respective sides, and both became rogue Jedi, that would be something that we haven't seen in the movies before. We may grow to like Kylo Ren as a character more, by having him team up with Rey. Or we could have Kylo Ren team up with the rebels to try and save Rey from the dark side. There's some interesting shifting of sides that could be done here, which hooks well into the unknown origins of Rey's strong force powers. I think having Rey's powers being something bad, is also a great way to dispel her Marie-Sue-ness



Jester David said:


> I'm happier with the idea of focusing on Ren and bringing in the Knights of Ren as his minions. And focusing on the power struggle between Ren and Hux for control of the First Order.




I really wish we would have seen the Knights of Ren in this movie. Another plot hook they left hanging. Hux isn't very interesting as a villain to me though.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 9, 2018)

Ovinomancer said:


> So, informally, just about everyone I know that dislikes this movie has been a fan of the pre-Disney EU.  I wasn't, and I like TLJ.  I wonder how widespread this is, given that the movie was pretty well received outside of a smallish and loud core of die-hard SW fandom.




 The plotline from the movies is basically a 25 year old EU plotline of the week.

1. Surviving imperial faction.
2.  A new Sith/Darksider
3. A new super weapon (usually bigger/better)
4. A Super Star Destroyer (often bigger and better). 

 And we had more interesting female characters as well- Mara Jade being the big one and she saved Luke's life. In 1991. And she didn't come across as a Mary Sue. And the plotlines were better as well, at least in the good ones. So in addition to not being very original (TFA being a rehash), the core plotline is not that different than the old Dark Empire comics.

 In defence of the new they have nothing as bad as Children of the Jedi or The Crystal Star, those abominations make AotC look good. They haven't hit the peaks of the old Star Wars but overall its better. They messed a few things up (Aftermath series, originality, TLJ). The prequels were also partly redeemed by decent novels- AotC novel was decent, RoTS was good. 

 I've heard that the Lost Stars books are very good along with the new Thrawn ones.


----------



## Jester David (Dec 9, 2018)

Imaculata said:


> Not entirely. It was a surprise going into the movie. But once the movie started heading slightly in that direction, I was genuinely excited at what they might do. Instead, as stated above, they were just yanking our chains a bit.
> 
> And that's exactly my problem with all this. It is very easy to "yank the audience's chains", and to have people mistake that for being an unexpected twist. But it takes effort to actually write a satisfying plot. It felt like the movie went out of its way to constantly yank those chains, and then have no satisfying resolution to it.
> 
> ...



I think the chain yanking has a LOT to do with people not liking _The Last Jedi_. It spent a lot of its runtime zigging when everyone expected it to zag. We've been conditioned to expect certain things in these kind of movies over the last, well.... fifty years? Sixty? And this movie flipped the table each time. 
Suddenly we're out of our comfort zone and unhappy. 

(And then people complain about every Marvel movie being the same.)



Imaculata said:


> I think there are a lot of things they could have done. First of all, I have no issue with a fanbase getting a plotpoint right. George RR Martin (writer of Game of Thrones) has often said that even if fans guess his twists correctly, he still wouldn't want to change it, because if he did all the hints leading up to that twist would no longer make sense. Besides, it is impossible for fans not to guess correctly if you give the entire planet years to think about it. Fans will go through every possibility. And I am in agreement with Mr Martin here, just stick to your guns and stay the course.



This assumes they changed it. They didn't.
Abrams had an idea, but didn't share it. No one told Rian Johnson anything and he made no changes. He picked what he thought was the most interesting answer in terms of drama and theme.



Imaculata said:


> That said, could they have come up with something that (most) people didn't expect? I think so. Bare in mind, I am no script writer, but just off the top of my head: The twist could have been that she had no parents at all.



So a double Anakin who only had a mom? 
But... doesn't that just create more questions? (How? Why?) And it makes her a weird child of destiny/ chosen one. 



Imaculata said:


> But it doesn't work for me, because we have barely gottten to know Snoke. Who Snoke is, and what his powers are, are some of the plot hooks set up by TFA. You cannot then leave those hooks hanging and kill him off before answering those questions.



We know more about him than we knew about the Emperor in the Original Trilogy, as we know his title _and_ his proper name. (Seriously: the name "Palpatine" isn't mentioned once in the OT.) 
Scary and ugly and was a powerful Force User and evil; that's pretty much all we needed to know about both.

Who Snoke is isn't really a plot hook. Not really. It's a generic JJ Abrams mystery that is presented vaguely in case needed later.

Honestly, I think this has more to do with George Lucas and the EU and Star War's fans' ability to know everything about everyone including the entire Mos Eisley cantina. We're not use to blanks.



Imaculata said:


> I feel his transition into being the big bad isn't earned at this point.



Why? We know more about him than Snoke and he's demonstrated a willingness to kill his parents and butcher innocents. What more do we need?



Imaculata said:


> I don't think it would. If both characters turned away form their respective sides, and both became rogue Jedi, that would be something that we haven't seen in the movies before. We may grow to like Kylo Ren as a character more, by having him team up with Rey. Or we could have Kylo Ren team up with the rebels to try and save Rey from the dark side. There's some interesting shifting of sides that could be done here, which hooks well into the unknown origins of Rey's strong force powers. I think having Rey's powers being something bad, is also a great way to dispel her Marie-Sue-ness



Why does the origin of her Force powers have to be known? Literally no other Jedi apart from Luke has an origin for their Force powers (as there's no other Jedi bloodlines). We don't know the origin of Palpatine's power. Or Yoda's. Or Mace Windu's, and he was probably the most powerful Jedi we've seen on screen.

Okay, we haven't seen a Grey Jedi before. And that would be interesting. But I don't think this is the place, as it needs to be a big climax to a trilogy. It needs to be good vs evil. 
Having Rey fall and be saved by Ren and the Resistance also makes the end of the trilogy focused on redeeming a fallen Jedi, which was basically the plot of _Return of the Jedi_. Plus, it basically means Rey is a damsel that has to be saved (albeit from herself) _and_ makes her less morally strong than Luke and Leia, since she wasn't able to resist the pull of the Dark Side. (Plus it pretty much negates Rey's status the first real female protagonist in Star Wars by making her the end villain of the Trilogy.)

Lucasfilms might not end up doing an Episode X and instead focus on other films and stories in Star Wars. Episode IX needs to be an "end" of something. And having the "Episodes" saga about the rise and fall of the Skywalker dynasty works. The life and legacy of Anakin Skywalker. Having Episode IX finish with the death of Ren and the end of the Skywalker bloodline wraps up that aspect, with the defeat of the Heir of Anakin. 
But that works best of Ren is antagonistic rather than an antihero or protagonist. The end goal of the movie should be about stopping him. 



Imaculata said:


> I really wish we would have seen the Knights of Ren in this movie. Another plot hook they left hanging. Hux isn't very interesting as a villain to me though.



Johnson talked about that and how they didn't really have anything to do in the film. Had he brought them in, it would have just replaced the Praetorian Guard. 
Which leaves them to be a big focus in Episode IX.

Which is still weird as we know nothing of the Knights of Ren beyond their name. We don't really have a reason to care about them beyond them being a bunch of lesser Kylo Rens. The most interesting thing about them is really the mystery, and when you fill than in they will inevitably be less cool. 
Think about it: they're former students of Luke who turned on the academy with Ren. They're basically the fallen Jedi equivalent of Crabbe and Goyle.


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## Ovinomancer (Dec 9, 2018)

Imaculata said:


> Not entirely. It was a surprise going into the movie. But once the movie started heading slightly in that direction, I was genuinely excited at what they might do. Instead, as stated above, they were just yanking our chains a bit.
> 
> And that's exactly my problem with all this. It is very easy to "yank the audience's chains", and to have people mistake that for being an unexpected twist. But it takes effort to actually write a satisfying plot. It felt like the movie went out of its way to constantly yank those chains, and then have no satisfying resolution to it.
> 
> ...




I posit that it's a fandom of the old EU and you respond to that with a restatement of your complaints without mentioning the old EU?


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## Mercurius (Dec 9, 2018)

Ovinomancer said:


> So, informally, just about everyone I know that dislikes this movie has been a fan of the pre-Disney EU.  I wasn't, and I like TLJ.  I wonder how widespread this is, given that the movie was pretty well received outside of a smallish and loud core of die-hard SW fandom.




I didn't read any of the EU books, have never watched the Clone Wars. I am not a "die-hard SW fan," at least no more than any Gen-X semi-geek. I do love the original trilogy, which is part of my cultural mythology. The friend I saw it with is similar, and we both were--to say the least--underwhelmed. I was left with a bad taste, a sense of wwrongness, even, like I had just seen my dead grandmother dug up from the grave, taxidermied, and painted with too much make-up to try to make her look alive.

The reasons I didn't like it are many. But perhaps the underlying reason is that it is the latest in a continued trend that is pulling the films further and further away from the mythic quality and depth of the original films. The original trilogy felt like myth on screen - myth in the sense of Joseph Campbell, as the deep and true stories of our souls. The prequels were a step away from that, as Lucas became overly obsessed with technology, as well as all of the other problems people have talked to death. But in a way the deeper problem with the prequels (beyond bad acting, etc) is they became "Vaderized" - non-organic cyborgs, overly reliant upon technology.

The Disney films are an even larger step away, and by the time we get to TLJ the gap is disconcerting, like the subtle feeling of dis-ease some get when looking at computer generated faces. It is just _off_, not right, and feels like a mockery of real humanity. Or to put it another way, it feels artificial and inauthentic. A taxidermied dead old lady with lots of make-up.

I think the underlying issue is that where Lucas tapped into mythology and created something fresh, the Disney films aren't going into the "mythic well" for inspiration. They're re-hashing old ideas and mixing them with contemporary cultural memes. This is where the superficiality comes in. The OT felt like the story of our souls writ large in a beautiful, extravagant form. The prequels felt like the cyborg follow-up, more machine than man, and the Disney films feel like a simulated, pale imitation of something that was vibrant, trying to recapture lost light.

But that is _my_ personal sense of it. I should probably see it again, though.


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## billd91 (Dec 9, 2018)

Imaculata said:


> There are parts of TLJ that I enjoyed, and I tried really hard to enjoy it. But unlike TFA, it didn't take me along for a ride. There were a lot of elements that just didn't work. Some hokey acting at the start, some misplaced humor that felt not in line with the tone of the rest of a scene, and some twists that weren't really twists, but the afore mentioned 'yaking of chains'. Occasionally I was into it. The opening bombing scene was pretty good, and I loved the big fight with Rey and Kylo Ren versus Snoke's guards. I could even get onboard with some of the interesting stuff they did in regards to Rey's visions, the way she connected with Kylo Ren. I thought that was really well done. It wasn't until the revelation in regards to Rey's parents, that I felt really disappointed. There was so much they could have done with that, and they just really dropped the ball. The odd thing is, that it felt like the director thought he was really smart with that 'twist'. It's not. It's dumb and disappointing.




We're going to have to agree to vehemently disagree on that point. Rey's ancestry being nobodies was a *fantastic* choice and I hope Abrams doesn't track back on it. It's about time one of the Force-using protagonists embodies the return of the Force to being the birthright of anybody and not just a Skywalker.


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## dragoner (Dec 9, 2018)

I found TLJ's plot predictable, such as once in the cave, there would be another way out, or when brought before Snoke, Snoke was going to die. He sort of died too easily, imo, and I wondered why the guards fought instead of running away? Generally, the script felt flat; the actors did fine, and the special effects were good.


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## Shasarak (Dec 9, 2018)

> female clone of Luke from his severed hand




I guess we were lucky we did not end up with a Wookie clone of Luke from his severed hand.


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## MoonSong (Dec 10, 2018)

Ovinomancer said:


> So, informally, just about everyone I know that dislikes this movie has been a fan of the pre-Disney EU.  I wasn't, and I like TLJ.  I wonder how widespread this is, given that the movie was pretty well received outside of a smallish and loud core of die-hard SW fandom.




I'm not part of that audience either and I'm okish with TLJ -enjoyed some of it, but not enough to want to get a copy at full price-. I know a lot about the old extended universe from second hand though -like about Mara Jade, Ben Skywalker, and someone dropping a moon on poor Chowie-. Perhaps I sit more in the middle of this, I can see what bothers many of them, but most of it doesn't bother me, or doesn't bother me anymore.

I wouldn't dismiss the die-hards, either on size or relevance. It doesn't matter their actual size, they are the ones keeping the brand healthy. They proselytize, they camp to watch the movies on opening night and watch them multiple times, they do fanfilms, they buy the SWAG... their impact on the fandom cannot be understated.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 10, 2018)

MoonSong said:


> I'm not part of that audience either and I'm okish with TLJ -enjoyed some of it, but not enough to want to get a copy at full price-. I know a lot about the old extended universe from second hand though -like about Mara Jade, Ben Skywalker, and someone dropping a moon on poor Chowie-. Perhaps I sit more in the middle of this, I can see what bothers many of them, but most of it doesn't bother me, or doesn't bother me anymore.
> 
> I wouldn't dismiss the die-hards, either on size or relevance. It doesn't matter their actual size, they are the ones keeping the brand healthy. They proselytize, they camp to watch the movies on opening night and watch them multiple times, they do fanfilms, they buy the SWAG... their impact on the fandom cannot be understated.




 The die hards also brought Star Wars back. Heir to the Empire brought Star Wars back, it was basically dead in 1991 the only IP being made was the D6 RPG. The last Star Wars stuff stopped in 87 IIRC (except the RPG). TLJ made a lot less than TFA at the theatre (to be far expectations were lower), Solo bombed, Rogue One over performed on expectations (being a spin off and all). I only went to see TLJ twice (TFA 4 times), my friends generally saw TFA twice, TLJ once.


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## billd91 (Dec 10, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> The die hards also brought Star Wars back. Heir to the Empire brought Star Wars back, it was basically dead in 1991 the only IP being made was the D6 RPG. The last Star Wars stuff stopped in 87 IIRC (except the RPG). TLJ made a lot less than TFA at the theatre (to be far expectations were lower), Solo bombed, Rogue One over performed on expectations (being a spin off and all). I only went to see TLJ twice (TFA 4 times), my friends generally saw TFA twice, TLJ once.




Brought it back? From what? Lucrative home video sales?


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 10, 2018)

billd91 said:


> We're going to have to agree to vehemently disagree on that point. Rey's ancestry being nobodies was a *fantastic* choice and I hope Abrams doesn't track back on it. It's about time one of the Force-using protagonists embodies the return of the Force to being the birthright of anybody and not just a Skywalker.




I think either choice is... overrated. Sure, Skywalker is the Chosen and what not. But so what - countless of Jedi before him were not "Chosen", they just had the gift. Obi Wan or Yoda or Palpatine didn't come from a long line of powerful force users. They were their own. 

Rey is special because she has force powers. Whether this comes from a unique lineage or just because she is one of the lucky randoms to get force powers doesn't really matter.

The only interesting thnig would now be someone that wasn't gifted with force powers but found a way to gain access to him due training or something like that.

Sure, there is still some twist in that we expected it was to be something big. But, another aspect: Just because her parents weren't special in some supernatural way doesn't mean they were not special to _her_. Maybe they didn't deserve any respect from Rey or the audience, but if so, then not because they weren't force users or linked to important characters, but just because they were bad parents.


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## Jester David (Dec 11, 2018)

Honestly, I think the views of this thread say more about how old we are here at ENWorld.

Here's the thing: younger Star Wars fans _like_ the prequels. That was sometimes their introduction to the franchise and they have fond memories of those movies. The original trilogy can be cheesy at times, with weak special effects and really slow action scenes. _A New Hope_ is really slow in the middle and the "fight" between Vader and Obi-Wan is kinda sad to watch. It may have been _Phantom Menace_ or _Attack of the Clones_ that made them fall in love with Star Wars. Being more familiar with _The Clone Wars_ they may be more attached to Anakin than Luke. 
After twenty years, there's a lot of growing affection for the prequels.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 11, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Honestly, I think the views of this thread say more about how old we are here at ENWorld.
> 
> Here's the thing: younger Star Wars fans _like_ the prequels. That was sometimes their introduction to the franchise and they have fond memories of those movies. The original trilogy can be cheesy at times, with weak special effects and really slow action scenes. _A New Hope_ is really slow in the middle and the "fight" between Vader and Obi-Wan is kinda sad to watch. It may have been _Phantom Menace_ or _Attack of the Clones_ that made them fall in love with Star Wars. Being more familiar with _The Clone Wars_ they may be more attached to Anakin than Luke.
> After twenty years, there's a lot of growing affection for the prequels.




 Slow combat scenes aren't that bad, I prefer them over Yoda in AoTC (his dual vs Palpatine was better). Sometimes less is more (or show some restraint).


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## Jester David (Dec 11, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> Slow combat scenes aren't that bad, I prefer them over Yoda in AoTC (his dual vs Palpatine was better). Sometimes less is more (or show some restraint).



Sure. Tell that to a bored six-year-old.


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## Mercurius (Dec 11, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Sure. Tell that to a bored six-year-old.




Six-year olds also prefer donuts to kale. Should we listen to them for nutritional guidance and let them decide on their diet? Ultimately it is the parents' choice what their six-year old eats, just as it is the choice of adult film producers* what they're selling to young people. What we've seen for the last 40 years is a kind of "stimulation inflation," which has encouraged a kind of numbing of the senses in younger people, who want more and bigger and faster. I see it as a kind of cultural decline.

And just so we're clear, I think we've evolved in some ways as well. But film--as a whole--has become more about dopamine excitement than good story and myth telling.

*Edit: By this, I mean film producers who are adults, not people who produce "adult films"


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## Jester David (Dec 11, 2018)

Mercurius said:


> Six-year olds also prefer donuts to kale. Should we listen to them for nutritional guidance and let them decide on their diet? Ultimately it is the parents' choice what their six-year old eats, just as it is the choice of adult film producers what they're selling to young people. What we've seen for the last 40 years is a kind of "stimulation inflation," which has encouraged a kind of numbing of the senses in younger people, who want more and bigger and faster. I see it as a kind of cultural decline.
> 
> And just so we're clear, I think we've evolved in some ways as well. But film--as a whole--has become more about dopamine excitement than good story and myth telling.



There’s a big difference between dietary health and getting them to enjoy a movie. You can’t force someone to enjoy a film or become a fan of a franchise.
Not anymore than I’m a soccer fan because my dad kept exposing me to games.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 11, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Sure. Tell that to a bored six-year-old.




Kids these days, attention span of a gnat.


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## Jester David (Dec 11, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> Kids these days, attention span of a gnat.


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## Jester David (Dec 11, 2018)

(This was me for a _loooong_ while. My son had no interest in watching the movies with me.)


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## Mercurius (Dec 11, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Sure. Tell that to a bored six-year-old.






Jester David said:


> There’s a big difference between dietary health and getting them to enjoy a movie. You can’t force someone to enjoy a film or become a fan of a franchise.
> Not anymore than I’m a soccer fan because my dad kept exposing me to games.




Well, first of all I'd question taking a six-year old to see a Star Wars movie. But that aside, I would ask, why doesn't a six-year old today like the original Star Wars (presumably) but six-year olds in 1977 did? I would argue it is because of prior "dietary habits."

So yes, it is dependent upon what the parents expose them to. Media is a form of diet - it is food for the nervous system. If  you feed a child bowls of sugar and then an apple, they'll find the apple "boring." Same thing with films.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 11, 2018)

Jester David said:


> View attachment 103607




 And get off my lawn.

 Its more the 18-26 years olds I have noticed. Can't stay off the phones when its a health and safety thing. Feel free to get hit by forklift idiot.


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## ccs (Dec 11, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Honestly, I think the views of this thread say more about how old we are here at ENWorld.
> 
> Here's the thing: younger Star Wars fans _like_ the prequels. That was sometimes their introduction to the franchise and they have fond memories of those movies. The original trilogy can be cheesy at times, with weak special effects and really slow action scenes. _A New Hope_ is really slow in the middle and the "fight" between Vader and Obi-Wan is kinda sad to watch. It may have been _Phantom Menace_ or _Attack of the Clones_ that made them fall in love with Star Wars. Being more familiar with _The Clone Wars_ they may be more attached to Anakin than Luke.
> After twenty years, there's a lot of growing affection for the prequels.




1) Oh, I completely understand.  When I watched PM the moment it opened there were two versions of myself sitting in that seat.  My 29 year old self was watching it more from a technical PoV - and thinks Lucas could have done a better job story/plot wise.  My 7 year old self though was quite entertained.  But I generally like PM (and Clones & Sith - though again, my adult self is positive the story/plot could've been better).  Not as much as I like the original trilogy, but I do like them.

2) And now there's TFA, TLJ, Solo, & R1 to contrast the prequels against.  Compared to most on this list the prequels end up looking pretty damned good.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 11, 2018)

Prequels had a better plot than most give credit. It was the execution.


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## Jester David (Dec 11, 2018)

Mercurius said:


> Well, first of all I'd question taking a six-year old to see a Star Wars movie.



Who do you think the Star Wars movies are for, apart from kids? 
The success of the films owes as much to toy sales as the box office.


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## billd91 (Dec 11, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Who do you think the Star Wars movies are for, apart from kids?
> The success of the films owes as much to toy sales as the box office.




Who are the movies for? Um... everyone? And even if the company owning the IP profits from the toy deals, that doesn't necessarily make the movies suitable for all  6 year olds. There's usually quite a bit of violence and that's got to be judged on a case-by-case basis with the personality of the kid. I started my kids on the movies early, but I did so on the small screen in my home where the environment and exposure was more controlled and if things weren't going well, we could stop for a while.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 11, 2018)

I was 5 or 6 when I saw RoTJ and Jabba scared the crap outta me.

 Still better than seeing Aliens at the age of 8 or so. Didn't finish that movie.


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## Shasarak (Dec 11, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Who do you think the Star Wars movies are for, apart from kids?




You mean the rest of you dont take your kids to see the black and white French art films?


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## Jester David (Dec 11, 2018)

billd91 said:


> Who are the movies for? Um... everyone? And even if the company owning the IP profits from the toy deals, that doesn't necessarily make the movies suitable for all  6 year olds. There's usually quite a bit of violence and that's got to be judged on a case-by-case basis with the personality of the kid. I started my kids on the movies early, but I did so on the small screen in my home where the environment and exposure was more controlled and if things weren't going well, we could stop for a while.



Sure.
But stuff like Ewoks and Jar Jar and showing Anakin as an 8yo boy is very much trying to sell the movies to younger kids. As was toning down the violence of the prequels by having the bad guys be robots and CGI bug men. 
And a lot of these new fans might put movies like _Revenge of the Sith_ atop the list, having more nostalgia and affection for it than _A New Hope_.


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## Eltab (Dec 12, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> Prequels had a better plot than most give credit. It was the execution.




The prequels maybe had too much plot.
- Rise of the Emperor (with similarities to Julius Caesar and Octavian / Augustus)
- Republic Civil War
- Sidious is running _both sides_ of the civil war.  When does he sleep?
- Anakin grows from cute kid into … Darth Vader?! … as a young man
- Anakin has to have a romance with somebody so Luke and Leia can be born.
- Destruction of the Jedi; Yoda and Obi-Wan flee to exile and successfully hide

Sidious / Caesar could be a movie without anybody else involved.  The backstory for Ep 4-5-6 could be a movie with no other factors involved.  Romances are a movie all by themselves, year in and year out.  Ditto war movies.  I've piled up more than a trilogy already.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 12, 2018)

Eltab said:


> The prequels maybe had too much plot.
> - Rise of the Emperor (with similarities to Julius Caesar and Octavian / Augustus)
> - Republic Civil War
> - Sidious is running _both sides_ of the civil war.  When does he sleep?
> ...




Always thought AoTC clones should have been episode I (didn't need to see Anakin as a kid), and the rest is easy.


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## MoonSong (Dec 12, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Sure.
> But stuff like Ewoks and Jar Jar and showing Anakin as an 8yo boy is very much trying to sell the movies to younger kids. As was toning down the violence of the prequels by having the bad guys be robots and CGI bug men.
> And a lot of these new fans might put movies like _Revenge of the Sith_ atop the list, having more nostalgia and affection for it than _A New Hope_.




You are basically describing me. n_n

In a way I think that is the worst problem of the new trilogy, it doesn't seem to pander enough to children.


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## Morrus (Dec 12, 2018)

Jester David said:


> And a lot of these new fans might put movies like _Revenge of the Sith_ atop the list, having more nostalgia and affection for it than _A New Hope_.




Even the kids who liked the prequels don't rank them as classics in the way we did the originals. When they're our age, they won't be reminiscing about the Star Wars prequels with rose-covered glasses in the way we do the OT. They'll be reminiscing about something, but it won't be the Star Wars prequels. Those three films never had that cultural zeitgeist.


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## Jester David (Dec 12, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Even the kids who liked the prequels don't rank them as classics in the way we did the originals. When they're our age, they won't be reminiscing about the Star Wars prequels with rose-covered glasses in the way we do the OT. They'll be reminiscing about something, but it won't be the Star Wars prequels. Those three films never had that cultural zeitgeist.




Fans of the prequels very much do exist:
https://www.digitaltrends.com/features/star-wars-youre-all-crazy/
https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/4qhrq7/i_like_the_prequels_more_than_the_original/
https://metro.co.uk/2017/05/18/why-...are-much-better-than-everyone-thinks-6605636/
https://www.thedailybeast.com/actually-the-star-wars-prequels-dont-suck
https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/movies/2015/12/02/star-wars-prequel-trilogy-defense/76628934/
https://screenrant.com/star-wars-prequel-trilogy-good-popular-underrated/


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## MoonSong (Dec 12, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Even the kids who liked the prequels don't rank them as classics in the way we did the originals. When they're our age, they won't be reminiscing about the Star Wars prequels with rose-covered glasses in the way we do the OT. They'll be reminiscing about something, but it won't be the Star Wars prequels. Those three films never had that cultural zeitgeist.




I'm a child of the nineties. I look fondly towards stuff like Friends, Seinfield, Sky Dancers, the Dreamstone,  and the like. Granted, I'm not that fond of the prequels, but being that fond of Star Wars after the 80's is not really feasible. The OT was groundbreaking and highly influential, but that is the problem, everything made after the OT is heavily influenced by it, where once it was a fresh new thing, it barely stands apart by now. 

By the time the original trilogy was re-released in the mid nineties, I had been bombarded by countless parodies, shot outs and homages of it to really care. -And lets not go into the empire strikes back main plotwist that has been spoiled to death-. Then the Phantom menace came out and I got to watch something that truly stood out. By proxy it also gave me a reason to care about the OT as well. Suddenly I knew I wanted to watch the originals, to see what comes after that. Back to today, you won't see a single thing of SW parafernalia, no toys, no nothing, just a couple of old Playstation games and the six movies in Blu-ray in a single package, six movies together as a whole that I hold fondly.


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## Morrus (Dec 12, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Fans of the prequels very much do exist




Literally not what I said. Read it again, please.


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## Jester David (Dec 12, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Literally not what I said. Read it again, please.



at 
The author or the first link ranks _Revenge of the Sith_ as their favourite, 
I do think that in 20 years the 25yo who were introduced to Star Wars via the prequels might view them with the same nostalgia. And right now they might well enjoy those films like I enjoyed _A New Hope_ prior to the prequels.
Because ANH_ isn't_ that good. Not on paper. It has terrible dialogue, poor pacing, flat characters, and is tropey as . It uses plots from radio and film serials that were already three decades old that point. It's good largely because or nostalgia. And you can see how well Star Wars does in places with out that nostalgia by looking at China, where it is crushed at the box office.


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## billd91 (Dec 12, 2018)

Jester David said:


> at
> The author or the first link ranks _Revenge of the Sith_ as their favourite,
> I do think that in 20 years the 25yo who were introduced to Star Wars via the prequels might view them with the same nostalgia. And right now they might well enjoy those films like I enjoyed _A New Hope_ prior to the prequels.
> Because ANH_ isn't_ that good. Not on paper. It has terrible dialogue, poor pacing, flat characters, and is tropey as . It uses plots from radio and film serials that were already three decades old that point. It's good largely because or nostalgia. And you can see how well Star Wars does in places with out that nostalgia by looking at China, where it is crushed at the box office.




No, the prequels won't be viewed the same - for most kids of the 90s and 2000s I know, they fall short of that mark already. There's too much competition and they've already been eclipsed by better storytelling in The Clone Wars and Rebels animated series. 

The original trilogy looms large and it's not because of nostalgia. It's because in the realm of what was possible in cinema, Star Wars came along and blew the roof off the dump. How many special effects-laden movies make use of Industrial Light and Magic or Skywalker Sound? Star Wars generated a whole branch of the movie-making industry full of ground-breaking stuff, including THX and Pixar.


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## Jester David (Dec 12, 2018)

billd91 said:


> No, the prequels won't be viewed the same - for most kids of the 90s and 2000s I know, they fall short of that mark already. There's too much competition and they've already been eclipsed by better storytelling in The Clone Wars and Rebels animated series.
> 
> The original trilogy looms large and it's not because of nostalgia. It's because in the realm of what was possible in cinema, Star Wars came along and blew the roof off the dump. How many special effects-laden movies make use of Industrial Light and Magic or Skywalker Sound? Star Wars generated a whole branch of the movie-making industry full of ground-breaking stuff, including THX and Pixar.



Honestly, what my son (currently 8yo) will probably be most nostalgic for regarding Star Wars won’t be any of those things.
It will be the Lego Star Wars shorts and series. Freemaker Adventures and Yoda Chronicles...


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## delericho (Dec 12, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Even the kids who liked the prequels don't rank them as classics in the way we did the originals. When they're our age, they won't be reminiscing about the Star Wars prequels with rose-covered glasses in the way we do the OT. They'll be reminiscing about something, but it won't be the Star Wars prequels. Those three films never had that cultural zeitgeist.




My guess for that "something else" would be Harry Potter - the first film in that series hit in 2001, between TPM and AotC.

Of course, JKR is now running into trouble with her own set of prequels. Maybe in twenty years Disney will buy that IP, too?


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## Zardnaar (Dec 12, 2018)

Never got into Harry Potter. Shrugs.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 12, 2018)

There will undoubtedly be fans of the prequels, but the difference to the original Star Wars then and Star Wars today is that there is much more competition that is also succesful, across all media. It leads to much more segmentation. Someone will be nostalgic for something... But they might all have different IPs they will be nostalgic for.


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## Imaculata (Dec 15, 2018)

billd91 said:


> We're going to have to agree to vehemently disagree on that point. Rey's ancestry being nobodies was a *fantastic* choice and I hope Abrams doesn't track back on it. It's about time one of the Force-using protagonists embodies the return of the Force to being the birthright of anybody and not just a Skywalker.




My issue with it, is that it is no answer at all. The first movie sets up an expectation that there is a reason for Rey's powers... and then the conclusion to that plot hook is that there is no answer... I don't find that very compelling writing. It is a twist of a sort for sure... but was that really the best they could come up with?



Jester David said:


> And this movie flipped the table each time.
> Suddenly we're out of our comfort zone and unhappy.
> 
> (And then people complain about every Marvel movie being the same.)




Sometimes when you flip the table, all you're left with is a mess.



Jester David said:


> So a double Anakin who only had a mom?
> But... doesn't that just create more questions? (How? Why?) And it makes her a weird child of destiny/ chosen one.




I think I like that angle better than what they went with. Yes, it creates more questions, which could be explored in movie 3.



Jester David said:


> Why? We know more about him than Snoke and he's demonstrated a willingness to kill his parents and butcher innocents. What more do we need?




Because I feel he still hasn't made the journey to the darkside yet. TFA leaves a little doubt hanging.



Jester David said:


> Why does the origin of her Force powers have to be known? Literally no other Jedi apart from Luke has an origin for their Force powers (as there's no other Jedi bloodlines). We don't know the origin of Palpatine's power. Or Yoda's. Or Mace Windu's, and he was probably the most powerful Jedi we've seen on screen.




Because in the trailer to TLJ they make a big deal out of it, and it would explain why she is able to use her powers so quickly in TFA. In a way they set it up already, but didn't follow up on it. I think it is an interesting angle to her character.



Jester David said:


> It needs to be good vs evil.




Why? Everyone keeps criticizing Disney Star Wars about never doing anything new, and repeating beats from previous movies. And yet here is a chance to truly do something unexpected, and you don't want them to do it? Why?



Jester David said:


> Having Rey fall and be saved by Ren and the Resistance also makes the end of the trilogy focused on redeeming a fallen Jedi, which was basically the plot of _Return of the Jedi_. Plus, it basically means Rey is a damsel that has to be saved (albeit from herself) _and_ makes her less morally strong than Luke and Leia, since she wasn't able to resist the pull of the Dark Side. (Plus it pretty much negates Rey's status the first real female protagonist in Star Wars by making her the end villain of the Trilogy.)




I don't think any of this is true. Having to be saved from yourself does not make you a damsel in distress. Having her succumb to the dark side does not make her morally less strong than previous characters, because the previous movies have already set up that the darkside can be very tempting, especially when it exploits feelings of fear and grief. Giving Rey a weakness in her character is good writing in my opinion, and the only way to get away from the feeling that she is a Mary Sue character. I also don't think it reduces her protagonist status. In fact, it makes her take central stage more. One of my issues with TLJ, was that it didn't seem to know what to do with Rey and her journey. It didn't seem to know how she fit into the story.



Jester David said:


> The end goal of the movie should be about stopping him.




It could have been about stopping Snoke, or the First Order as a whole.



Jester David said:


> Which is still weird as we know nothing of the Knights of Ren beyond their name. We don't really have a reason to care about them beyond them being a bunch of lesser Kylo Rens. The most interesting thing about them is really the mystery, and when you fill than in they will inevitably be less cool.
> Think about it: they're former students of Luke who turned on the academy with Ren. They're basically the fallen Jedi equivalent of Crabbe and Goyle.




I think they could and should have tied them to Luke's plot in TLJ. It would have given Luke and Rey a common enemy to fight, and allowed them to better explain why Luke is in exile, while building up the threat of Kylo Ren.  The big fight with Snoke's guards was nice and all, but really something they should have saved for the third movie.

Disney really should have thought all of this out before making any of the movies.


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## trappedslider (Dec 15, 2018)

As someone who grew up with the prequels, I vastly prefer them over the OT. The awkward romance dialogue between Anakin and Padme is believable for me because that's how it was with my first few relationships growing up and in some cases it's still awkward lol.  When I first watched ANH back in the mid 90s my reaction to the fight between Obi and Vader was basically, "that's it? oh okay."

RotS was the frist movie I camped out for.


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## Eltab (Dec 15, 2018)

MoonSong said:


> I'm a child of the nineties. Granted, I'm not that fond of the prequels, but being that fond of Star Wars after the 80's is not really feasible. The OT was groundbreaking and highly influential, but that is the problem, everything made after the OT is heavily influenced by it, where once it was a fresh new thing, it barely stands apart by now.
> 
> By the time the original trilogy was re-released in the mid nineties, I had been bombarded by countless parodies, shot outs and homages of it to really care. -And lets not go into the empire strikes back main plotwist that has been spoiled to death-. Then the Phantom menace came out and I got to watch something that truly stood out. By proxy it also gave me a reason to care about the OT as well. Suddenly I knew I wanted to watch the originals, to see what comes after that. Back to today, you won't see a single thing of SW parafernalia, no toys, no nothing, just a couple of old Playstation games and the six movies in Blu-ray in a single package, six movies together as a whole that I hold fondly.




I was a child during the 1970s and I approve this* message.

* suitably edited - who is Seinfeld?


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## Jester David (Dec 15, 2018)

Imaculata said:


> I think I like that angle better than what they went with. Yes, it creates more questions, which could be explored in movie 3.



Yes, because JJ Abrams is the filmmaker we want answering questions.



Imaculata said:


> Because I feel he still hasn't made the journey to the darkside yet. TFA leaves a little doubt hanging.



Not really.
He killed his father in TFA, completing his journey to the Dark Side. TLJ had Rey question again if he could return, and instead he doubled down and slew his master so he and Rey could rule together. 
He's far, far beyond the pale. 

He literally spaced his own mom! What else does he need to do to be evil? Dropkick a baby while eating a puppy? 



Imaculata said:


> Because in the trailer to TLJ they make a big deal out of it,



Surprise! The trailer lied. It was misdirection. 
Here's the thing: trailers aren't made by the filmmakers. They're advertising and made by companies that specialise in marketing. This is like complaining you were misled by the poster...

The first time the DIRECTOR of the film saw the trailer was the day it premiered. And prior to that he was telling people not to watch the trailers, fearing they'd spoil too much. 



Imaculata said:


> and it would explain why she is able to use her powers so quickly in TFA. In a way they set it up already, but didn't follow up on it. I think it is an interesting angle to her character.



Again, that's not really thing in TFA. Ren asks her who trained her, but we as an audience know: no one. She's just strong in the Force. At no point does the film ask us to question who her parents are—her parent's aren't even mentioned—or the source of her powers. Even when we see Rey abandoned that's not refereed to as her parents, just the people she's waiting for.
The speculation? That was all on us. 
We the audience. 
The Star Wars fans who know that Star Wars is famous for parental plot twists. So when we saw the seeds for one, we all leapt into speculation. And then disappointing ourselves because the movie didn't stoop to cheap fanservice and have her as Obi Wan's daughter or Mace Windu's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate. 



Imaculata said:


> Why? Everyone keeps criticizing Disney Star Wars about never doing anything new, and repeating beats from previous movies. And yet here is a chance to truly do something unexpected, and you don't want them to do it? Why?



First, people complained about that after _The Force Awakens_ and _Rogue One_. And then we got _The Last Jedi_. And half of TLJ _was_ something new. 
So then people complained _harder_. Rey not being a special chosen one related to a main character. The hero's plans failing. Snoak not being around for the full trilogy. Poe being "wrong" about his leader. Previously unseen Force powers. Not repeating beats from past movies. Not having a lightsaber duel. 
People don't want new. They want new in a comfortable and safe way that fits their expectations. 

Second, the fallen hero being redeemed in the final act ISN'T ING NEW! We saw that with Vader. New is having Kylo Ren be irredeemable and put down like a dog. 

Also... shocker here: Star Wars is for kids. Kids are a huge audience. They'll never do an R-rated Star Wars. Even the streaming shows on Disney+ will be less edgy than the Network Marvel shows and not approach the Netflix Marvel stuff. 
Given it's for kids, you don't get deep into the weeds of philosophy for a kid's movie. You can't have an introspective metaphysical climax where Ben Solo redeems a fallen Rey without his lightsaber will have a theater full of bored kids. 



Imaculata said:


> I don't think any of this is true. Having to be saved from yourself does not make you a damsel in distress.



Is she not in control of her own destiny and requires someone else to give her back her life and restore her agency? Yes? Then she's a damsel in distress.
Rey _needs_ to be an active part of her own life. When the most important character to Rey's story is someone else, then you've taken away her agency and made her a supporting character in her own story. If "Rey's story" is really "the story of how Kylo Ren saved Rey" then the movie has made a terrible, terrible mistake. 



Imaculata said:


> Having her succumb to the dark side does not make her morally less strong than previous characters, because the previous movies have already set up that the darkside can be very tempting, especially when it exploits feelings of fear and grief. Giving Rey a weakness in her character is good writing in my opinion, and the only way to get away from the feeling that she is a Mary Sue character. I also don't think it reduces her protagonist status. In fact, it makes her take central stage more. One of my issues with TLJ, was that it didn't seem to know what to do with Rey and her journey. It didn't seem to know how she fit into the story.



And yet Luke, being the Gary Stu of Gary Stus (despite NEVER being called that by people who call Rey a Mary Sue) pretty easily resisted the call of the Dark Side. Having Rey falls inherently means she is less strong than Luke. Especially as Luke required the threat on Leia to come close to falling and Anakin needed a lifetime of temptation climaxing in the desire to save Padme. Rey has... what? What attachment drives her to fall? There's no attachment. 
Just having her succumb to the temptation of temptation makes her super effing weak.

And, again, it would mean she is literally repeating Anakin's character arc by being a desert kid inherently strong in the Force who succumbs to the Dark Side and has to be redeemed. 



Imaculata said:


> It could have been about stopping Snoke, or the First Order as a whole.



I've seen that movie before. 
That was _Return of the Jedi_. 

Plus... you kinda don't want the First Order stopped. They did that with the Empire and it just means no more easy stories, as you need a villain. I hope they learn their lesson after having to have _The Force Awakens_ undo the victory of the Rebels and have the First Order around in some fashion, albeit humbled and weaker.



Imaculata said:


> I think they could and should have tied them to Luke's plot in TLJ. It would have given Luke and Rey a common enemy to fight, and allowed them to better explain why Luke is in exile, while building up the threat of Kylo Ren.  The big fight with Snoke's guards was nice and all, but really something they should have saved for the third movie.



I don't think the film would have been much improved by a fight on the planet they're training (and just make people wonder how they found Luke).
Plus, a present common enemy would eliminate Luke's character arc of deciding to willingly return to the fight. By bringing the fight to him, it negates any choice he would make. And if it doesn't... well then we end up with the exact same movie, only with a lightsaber fight added on for cheap thrills. It's literally superflous. 

But, again, why do you care about the Knights of Ren? Have you been given any reason to care? 
Reiterating my point, realistically, the "Knights of Ren" are a bunch of former 12 and 13 year old padawans who participated in the lightsaber equivalent of a school shooting and decided to give themselves a scary pompous name like the edgelords they are. 
They're not badass elite mercenaries. They're not a highly trained force of darksiders hand picked by Kylo Ren to serve as his enforcers. They were fellow students who sided with him when he said "Luke tried to kill me. I'm going to burn the school down and kill everyone here. Are you with me... or not?"

The ONLY things that makes them cool are the name and the mystery. 



Imaculata said:


> Disney really should have thought all of this out before making any of the movies.



Probably.
But then they decided to leave the writing to the people _making _the films, rather than having the trilogy planned and outlined by management and studio heads.


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## MarkB (Dec 15, 2018)

Jester David said:


> He literally spaced his own mom!



No, he did not. He had the shot lined up, ready to take it, knowing through the Force that she was in there - and he held back, took his finger off the trigger, decided not to go through with it.

And then one of his wingmen took the shot anyway, before he had a chance to communicate his decision to them.


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## cbwjm (Dec 15, 2018)

What I'd love to see is Rey falling to the dark side and Kylo Ren having been restored to the light taking her out. That would be a massive twist that people wouldn't see coming. They'd be watching in the theatre and fully expect her to be saved and then BAM! Kylo lops of her head in a final showdown.


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## MarkB (Dec 15, 2018)

I'd like to see Kylo training his Knights of Ren, the other apprentices who fled Luke's temple with him... and Luke haunting him as a Force Ghost, pointing out the contradictions and shortcomings in the Dark Side teachings Kylo is trying to pass on from what Snoke taught him, while also acknowledging the failings of the Jedi strictures that Luke had been attempting to pass on to his students. Eventually Kylo and Luke both redeem themselves through the lessons they pass on to the other students, finding a path that avoids both the Dark Side's veneration of anger and pain, and the Jedi Order's aversion to any emotional connection.

We're not going to get anything like that, but it'd be nice.


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## Jester David (Dec 16, 2018)

cbwjm said:


> What I'd love to see is Rey falling to the dark side and Kylo Ren having been restored to the light taking her out. That would be a massive twist that people wouldn't see coming. They'd be watching in the theatre and fully expect her to be saved and then BAM! Kylo lops of her head in a final showdown.




And you think kids were crying hard while leaving the theater after _Infinity War_...


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## Jester David (Dec 16, 2018)

MarkB said:


> No, he did not. He had the shot lined up, ready to take it, knowing through the Force that she was in there - and he held back, took his finger off the trigger, decided not to go through with it.
> 
> And then one of his wingmen took the shot anyway, before he had a chance to communicate his decision to them.



Very true. I'd forgotten who took the shot.
It was a lovely fake out. Making you think he hadn't completely gone Dark Side and still giving you some hope throughout the movie, only to have him show that he was fully evil and irredeemable at the end.


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## MarkB (Dec 16, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Very true. I'd forgotten who took the shot.
> It was a lovely fake out. Making you think he hadn't completely gone Dark Side and still giving you some hope throughout the movie, only to have him show that he was fully evil and irredeemable at the end.




Fully evil, at least. I don't think he was demonstrably irredeemable.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 17, 2018)

MarkB said:


> Fully evil, at least. I don't think he was demonstrably irredeemable.




Vader murdered children and yet he was "redeemed". It is hard to find someone under these circumstanecs that could be irredeemable in Star Wars. Of course, he also died, but it's not like Kylo character needs to survive this trilogy. Especially if they want to get rid of the "Skywalker" bloodline as important factor in the Star Wars universe.


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## Dioltach (Dec 17, 2018)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Vader murdered children and yet he was "redeemed". It is hard to find someone under these circumstanecs that could be irredeemable in Star Wars. Of course, he also died, but it's not like Kylo character needs to survive this trilogy. Especially if they want to get rid of the "Skywalker" bloodline as important factor in the Star Wars universe.




It just struck me that perhaps the reason why Jedi weren't allowed to have children was precisely to prevent the kind of drama that comes with these bloodlines ...


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