# Hasbro Double Downgraded by Bank of America.



## Henadic Theologian (Nov 14, 2022)

'Magic: The Gathering' analysis prompts BofA to double downgrade Hasbro By Investing.com
					

'Magic: The Gathering' analysis prompts BofA to double downgrade Hasbro




					m.investing.com
				




 Like things are seriously bad now. As far as I can tell it's not effecting the D&D, yet.

 This is mostly MtG side, over printing products, and having an insane amount of products. Like it makes 2e TSR look restrained in comparsion, but FIRE, they made MtG into a billion dollar brand, but allowed the rest of Hasbro to fail, so they ended up over dependant MtG and to a lesser extent to keep Hasbro going and profitable, and there are signs that they milked MtG dry. The Dominaria sets are NOT doing well.

 Of course this weird current economy

 A double downgrade on top of all the other problems like a fast dropping stock is utter disaster. The D&D movie needs to kick some serious ass next year.

 Were does Chris Cox turn too to save the day? Not other Hasbro brands that is for sure. 

 Also he's stuck with a ton of sets to sell at least for the next couple of years because 2023's main line up has already been announced, and 2024 are already not fair from being finished.

 I think what he could do is lower print runs like other TCGs have. He can space out Secret Lairs more, except for D&D and Universes Beyond ones.

 He's going to have to start selling off some Hasbro stuff, not WotC because let's be honest if he sold WotC he may as well torch the rest of Hasbro for the insurance money, because Hasbro will die off. But certain parts of EOne, some less popular brands, maybe Power Rangers, etc..., could sold off.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Nov 15, 2022)

Yes, but did you read the whole thing, or maybe this is not in that specific article, but part of the downgrade is them accusing WotC/Hasbro of overproducing Magic cards, thus devaluing the collectible value part of it being a CCG. I did not see if this was just applying to the new sets or if they are being accused of doing this for longer.


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## darjr (Nov 15, 2022)

These are the same folks who lent Elon 12 billion to buy twitter.


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## Scribe (Nov 15, 2022)

I dont think its going to be that dramatic. The issue is a self inflicted wound that the MTG leadership could have, should have, and likely DID, see coming.

I've said it many times, Forsythe and Maro are not idiots. They knew the damage they were doing to the game, and, well, its come home to roost now.

Is it going to hurt D&D? I dont know, I dont think so, but maybe some belt tightening happens, because as we all know, there is only one acceptable answer for capitalists.

How much profit is needed? More.


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## doctorbadwolf (Nov 15, 2022)

Scribe said:


> Is it going to hurt D&D? I dont know, I dont think so, but maybe some belt tightening happens, because as we all know, there is only one acceptable answer for capitalists.
> 
> How much profit is needed? More.



Yeah a lot of companies are struggling in the face of circumstance that just cooperate with the public ally traded megacorps business model. My own company keeps telling us we are failing to hit goals because our revenue isn’t higher than it was in 2021. 

I think the same mindset is hurting Hasbro right now. You aren’t going to beat 2021 in 2022, as a luxury product maker. (Even autoparts can’t, and it’s _essential_)
People aren’t getting hundreds of extra dollars in covid relief money, and vastly fewer people have significant spare time.


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## Twiggly the Gnome (Nov 15, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> This is mostly MtG side, over printing products, and having an insane amount of products. Like it makes 2e TSR look restrained in comparsion



I saw this graphic a few weeks ago, and I was like, holy crap!


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## Random Task (Nov 15, 2022)

At least Magic has the advantage of being a game that people actually need the card to play and future sets can add cool things that people want to be able to use in game.   Baseball cards, on the other hand, were going to be an amazing collectible investment in the 1980s and 1990s but all the manufacturers produced so many cards at the time that they're not worth anything now and pretty much tanked the hobby for decades.


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## Zardnaar (Nov 15, 2022)

Threw in the towel on magic when they made mythics. 

 Contacted some old friends and watched some videos. Seems to be to much low value product, to many lines/formats supported (standards in trouble the old type 2). And a lot of product at absurd prices milking the whales.


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## Zardnaar (Nov 15, 2022)

Video. This guy has been banging on about it for a while now. Saw it coming basically. 

 Note lots of strong language used.


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## aco175 (Nov 15, 2022)

When I read the thread title my thoughts were about how often this happens and how common it is for companies.  The company could go up and down like this several times over the last few years and it could be nothing.  I do not know.  I could also be several nails in the coffin and we need the Kermit meme waving his hands in the air panicking.


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## Umbran (Nov 15, 2022)

Now you all see why the D&D side of the house slowed the supplement pipeline down so much.  Saturating your own market hurts you.



doctorbadwolf said:


> ...My own company keeps telling us we are failing to hit goals because our revenue isn’t higher than it was in 2021.
> 
> I think the same mindset is hurting Hasbro right now. You aren’t going to beat 2021 in 2022, as a luxury product maker. (Even autoparts can’t, and it’s _essential_)




Unfortunately, the pervasive economic models use continuous growth as their only real metric for health.  Being comfortably consistent isn't considered healthy - so companies will overreach to meet ever-growing goals, and inevitably fail.  This sets us up for the "boom and bust" pattern we see in modern the modern economy, on the scale of individual companies, in industries, and in the economy as a whole.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Nov 15, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Unfortunately, the pervasive economic models use continuous growth as their only real metric for health.  Being comfortably consistent isn't considered healthy - so companies will overreach to meet ever-growing goals, and inevitably fail.  This sets us up for the "boom and bust" pattern we see in modern the modern economy, on the scale of individual companies, in industries, and in the economy as a whole.




Even apart from the instability due to speculation, there is the instability due to the characteristic of human nature that a large proportion of our positive activities depend on spontaneous optimism rather than mathematical expectations, whether moral or hedonistic or economic. Most, probably, of our decisions to do something positive, the full consequences of which will be drawn out over many days to come, can only be taken as the result of animal spirits—a spontaneous urge to action rather than inaction, and not as the outcome of a weighted average of quantitative benefits multiplied by quantitative probabilities.


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## darjr (Nov 15, 2022)

This an opportunity for D&D to save the day.

The movie could be a big success driving retail toy and misc sales.
Same with the TV series.
Baldur’s gate cold be a boon too.
Isn’t there another video game and rumors of a cartoon series?


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## trappedslider (Nov 15, 2022)

Random Task said:


> At least Magic has the advantage of being a game that people actually need the card to play



Proxies say you don't


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## doctorbadwolf (Nov 15, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Now you all see why the D&D side of the house slowed the supplement pipeline down so much.  Saturating your own market hurts you.



Yeeeep. 


Umbran said:


> Unfortunately, the pervasive economic models use continuous growth as their only real metric for health.  Being comfortably consistent isn't considered healthy - so companies will overreach to meet ever-growing goals, and inevitably fail.  This sets us up for the "boom and bust" pattern we see in modern the modern economy, on the scale of individual companies, in industries, and in the economy as a whole.



Absolutely. And we are all caught in the middle, even those who aren’t employed by these companies. Meanwhile, when the company tanks, the people go made it tank just walk away with basically no consequence.


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## CleverNickName (Nov 15, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Proxies say you don't



Indeed.  Once upon a time, my friends and I each took a basic Plains and wrote "Black Orchid" on it with a Sharpie, just so we could experience what it would be like to play with one in our decks.  We wanted to see if it would live up to the hype.  (It did.)

I recommend making proxies for casual play.


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## Ralif Redhammer (Nov 15, 2022)

It's interesting to see it broken down by brand performance:





But ultimately, Hasbro is still making gobs of money, and it's hard to believe it's a sinking ship when they're still making that much money. But I suppose if one thing has been made clear by recent years, it's that corporations are never satisfied with a ton of money when they could have a gigaton of money.


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## Umbran (Nov 15, 2022)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> But ultimately, Hasbro is still making gobs of money, and it's hard to believe it's a sinking ship when they're still making that much money. But I suppose if one thing has been made clear by recent years, it's that corporations are never satisfied with a ton of money when they could have a gigaton of money.




Well, we should also remember, this evaluation is specifically about the _value of the stock_, which is not directly (and often not at all) linked to things non-stock-buyers think are measures of success - like absolute revenues or profits.  The stock market is today rather focused on short to medium gains for people who trade stock, rather than caring about the long term.  It is thus typically more interested in short-term fluctuations than long term performance.


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## Scribe (Nov 15, 2022)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Meanwhile, when the company tanks, the people go made it tank just walk away with basically no consequence.



Even worse, they get a parachute,  and a wink/nod new executive position while the rest of us are lucky to get a severance. 

My company going private again was such a relief.


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## Ralif Redhammer (Nov 15, 2022)

You are right, it's more complicated than just measuring revenue and profit. Which is why I am glad I am an IT worker, not a stock broker or anything like that!



Umbran said:


> Well, we should also remember, this evaluation is specifically about the _value of the stock_, which is not directly (and often not at all) linked to things non-stock-buyers think are measures of success - like absolute revenues or profits.  The stock market is today rather focused on short to medium gains for people who trade stock, rather than caring about the long term.  It is thus typically more interested in short-term fluctuations than long term performance.


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## Sacrosanct (Nov 15, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Threw in the towel on magic when they made mythics.
> 
> Contacted some old friends and watched some videos. Seems to be to much low value product, to many lines/formats supported (standards in trouble the old type 2). And a lot of product at absurd prices milking the whales.



I threw in the towel in the mid 90s and sold all my cards.  Which turns out was a big mistake, because I had no idea they would end up being so valuable only a few years later.  doh!  I sold them to a buddy for $250 I think.  the last time I checked, I'd had thousands of dollars worth in today's value (I had a ton of the first few years of Magic cards, but no black lotus alas)


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## Sacrosanct (Nov 15, 2022)

Hasbro has been on a steady down trend for the past year, not just with this recent news.


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## Zardnaar (Nov 15, 2022)

Sacrosanct said:


> Hasbro has been on a steady down trend for the past year, not just with this recent news.
> 
> View attachment 266761




 Difference is a few on YouTube were mentioning it but now it's become a thing as revenue is down as well.

 The cards are also reliant on the secondary market. Retailers have been stuck with product they can't sell. The product is worth less on secondary market than wholesale price.


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## darjr (Nov 15, 2022)

I wonder if NFTs and the recent crash of those and the realization that they were “nothing” has any impact. Like folks always new it was just cardboard and an artificial market for Magic Cards. But like NFTs, it was somewhat dependent on believing the other person still wanted them.


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## Scribe (Nov 15, 2022)

darjr said:


> I wonder if NFTs and the recent crash of those and the realization that they were “nothing” has any impact. Like folks always new it was just cardboard and an artificial market for Magic Cards. But like NFTs, it was somewhat dependent on believing the other person still wanted them.




People absolutely DID want them. Thats the point.

It used to be, proxy was simply not permitted, and the 'best' magic was competitive, tournament magic, in person.

That meant, if you wanted to play a certain deck, you had to own the real cards, that were as scarce as Wizards wanted.

Supply, Demand, Artificial Scarcity, and perceived value, were all very real in terms of the secondary market. I had cards go from $60 per, to $6, over night due to a combination of reprint, deck competitiveness (aka demand) and the general decline of competitive in person play.

I dont even want to look at the remaining handful of cards I have left, to see the 'value' they have retained.


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## darjr (Nov 15, 2022)

Scribe said:


> People absolutely DID want them. Thats the point.
> 
> It used to be, proxy was simply not permitted, and the 'best' magic was competitive, tournament magic, in person.
> 
> ...



Yea, but it seemed to me there was always a nudge and a wink about them being cardboard crack or just cardstock.


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## Art Waring (Nov 15, 2022)

Scribe said:


> Supply, Demand, Artificial Scarcity, and perceived value, were all very real in terms of the secondary market. I had cards go from $60 per, to $6, over night due to a combination of reprint, deck competitiveness (aka demand) and the general decline of competitive in person play.



And don't forget speculators that drive prices up really fast when other people start buying a certain card on the secondary market. Or when EDH started getting really popular and dual and special lands were going up in price wayyy too much. Its a strange market to be in, but perhaps it is in need of a revaluation to keep the game healthy.


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## Scribe (Nov 15, 2022)

darjr said:


> Yea, but it seemed to me there was always a nudge and a wink about them being cardboard crack or just cardstock.




Yes, but Gold is simply a mostly non-reactive shiny metal.


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## darjr (Nov 15, 2022)

Scribe said:


> Yes, but Gold is simply a mostly non-reactive shiny metal.



Which is also actually rare, isn’t it? And it’s wonderful to work with for jewelry, isn’t it?

Diamonds are probably a better analogy.

But I get it.


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## Scribe (Nov 15, 2022)

darjr said:


> Which is also actually rare, isn’t it? And it’s wonderful to work with for jewelry, isn’t it?
> 
> Diamonds are probably a better analogy.
> 
> But I get it.




I was watching some shows about Gold, both from a mining, and historical value perspective. Its interesting. Yes its rare (scarcity) but other than it being non-reactive, and not TOO rare (you could mint it and carry it around) what is it really? Just a stupid metal, that wouldnt hold up as a tool.

We decide what has value as much as any meaningful property of the item at hand.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Nov 15, 2022)

darjr said:


> Which is also actually rare, isn’t it? And it’s wonderful to work with for jewelry, isn’t it?
> 
> Diamonds are probably a better analogy.




You should probably look up the history of De Beers and the most successful advertising campaign in history.

(_Fun fact- in the forty years of the concentrated advertising from 1939 on, which consisted of the slogan "A Diamond is Forever," seeding European royalty and Hollywood stars with diamonds, using social pressure to close down the secondary market, and promoting the idea of "diamond engagement rings" ... which weren't a thing before that ... De Beers basically created the modern diamond market and moved it from the "millions" to the "billions" of dollars in a few decades.) _


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## Scribe (Nov 15, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> You should probably look up the history of De Beers and the most successful advertising campaign in history.
> 
> (_Fun fact- in the forty years of the concentrated advertising from 1939 on, which consisted of the slogan "A Diamond is Forever," seeding European royalty and Hollywood stars with diamonds, using social pressure to close down the secondary market, and promoting the idea of "diamond engagement rings" ... which weren't a thing before that ... De Beers basically created the modern diamond market and moved it from the "millions" to the "billions" of dollars in a few decades.) _




And considering we can now manufacture Diamonds...


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## darjr (Nov 15, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> You should probably look up the history of De Beers and the most successful advertising campaign in history.
> 
> (_Fun fact- in the forty years of the concentrated advertising from 1939 on, which consisted of the slogan "A Diamond is Forever," seeding European royalty and Hollywood stars with diamonds, using social pressure to close down the secondary market, and promoting the idea of "diamond engagement rings" ... which weren't a thing before that ... De Beers basically created the modern diamond market and moved it from the "millions" to the "billions" of dollars in a few decades.) _



I should but it was why I mentioned diamonds being a better analog to magic cards.


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## darjr (Nov 15, 2022)

Scribe said:


> And considering we can now manufacture Diamonds...



Dint manufactured diamonds florece or glow were natural do not? Like the manufactures ones are too perfect.


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## Alzrius (Nov 15, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> You should probably look up the history of De Beers and the most successful advertising campaign in history.
> 
> (_Fun fact- in the forty years of the concentrated advertising from 1939 on, which consisted of the slogan "A Diamond is Forever," seeding European royalty and Hollywood stars with diamonds, using social pressure to close down the secondary market, and promoting the idea of "diamond engagement rings" ... which weren't a thing before that ... De Beers basically created the modern diamond market and moved it from the "millions" to the "billions" of dollars in a few decades.) _



You've been talking to Dogbert again, haven't you Snarf?


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Nov 15, 2022)

Yeah, diamonds aren't scarce. The DeBeers have a literal mountain of it they're sitting on. It's artificial scarcity and a super-successful ad campaign that has convinced the public otherwise. 

That's right: The DeBeers folks have influenced how Minecraft plays.


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## Scribe (Nov 15, 2022)

darjr said:


> Dint manufactured diamonds florece or glow were natural do not? Like the manufactures ones are too perfect.




I dont even know, I just know from radio ads, that they are made in a plasma chamber.


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## Zardnaar (Nov 15, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Difference is a few on YouTube were mentioning it but now it's become a thing as revenue is down as well.
> 
> The cards are also reliant on the secondary market. Retailers have been stuck with product they can't sell. The product is worth less on secondary market than wholesale price.





Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Yeah, diamonds aren't scarce. The DeBeers have a literal mountain of it they're sitting on. It's artificial scarcity and a super-successful ad campaign that has convinced the public otherwise.
> 
> That's right: The DeBeers folks have influenced how Minecraft plays.




 I think Sapphires are rarer (emeralds?).  Prettier stone as well.


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## trappedslider (Nov 15, 2022)

darjr said:


> I wonder if NFTs and the recent crash of those and the realization that they were “nothing” has any impact. Like folks always new it was just cardboard and an artificial market for Magic Cards.



Behold the
The MTG Reserved List, a History​





						TCGplayer Infinite
					






					infinite.tcgplayer.com


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## darjr (Nov 15, 2022)

Huh? It’s not really a useful test I guess. The equipment costs too much.



*Hold the diamond under a UV screener to look for fluorescence.* If your jeweler has a UV tester, ask them to place the diamond under the UV light to show you the results. A mined diamond shows up blue under the UV light while a lab-grown diamond looks red.[7]

Don't be surprised if a jeweler doesn't have a UV screener available. Many of these high-quality screeners cost tens of thousands of dollars.











						How to Identify Lab Grown Diamonds: 9 Steps (with Pictures)
					

Lab-grown or synthetic diamonds are enjoying a surge of popularity—they're less expensive, ethically produced, and easier to trace than mined diamonds. If you're concerned that lab-grown diamonds are fake, don't be! Synthetic diamonds look...




					www.google.com


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## Scribe (Nov 15, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Behold the
> The MTG Reserved List, a History​
> 
> 
> ...




And how exactly is Wizards framing these power nine proxies? "Oh the card back is different, doesnt count." ?


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## Zardnaar (Nov 15, 2022)

Scribe said:


> And how exactly is Wizards framing these power nine proxies? "Oh the card back is different, doesnt count." ?




 Not tournament legel while charging $1000 for 4 packs. 

 They also gave those packs away to celebrities and high profile influencers.


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## trappedslider (Nov 15, 2022)

Scribe said:


> And how exactly is Wizards framing these power nine proxies? "Oh the card back is different, doesnt count." ?



*All policies apply only to tournament-legal*

That's how.


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## Scribe (Nov 15, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Not tournament legel while charging $1000 for 4 packs.
> 
> They also gave those packs away to celebrities and high profile influencers.




You know, I honestly think Maro cares, but its super sad to see such a complete selling out as they have done over the last 4 or so years. I was way too into Magic, and it just makes me sick honestly even after walking away from it years ago.



trappedslider said:


> *All policies apply only to tournament-legal*
> 
> That's how.




Fair enough. Cheap on Wizards part, but it is what it is.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Nov 15, 2022)

darjr said:


> I should but it was why I mentioned diamonds being a better analog to magic cards.




Well, I think that the lesson is that WoTC needs to up their game.

"Honey, will you marry me?"

"What is this? Some stupid rock on a ring??????"

"But darling, it's a diamond!"

"Whatever! Probably something you got in a box of cereal, you cheapskate. You know the rules- if you want to marry me, you need to spend two months salary on MAGIC CARDS."

"Wait .... what?"

"THAT'S RIGHT. Don't put baby in the corner. You want some of this sugar, better put a whole bunch of Mox Sapphire on it!"


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## Zardnaar (Nov 15, 2022)

Scribe said:


> You know, I honestly think Maro cares, but its super sad to see such a complete selling out as they have done over the last 4 or so years. I was way too into Magic, and it just makes me sick honestly even after walking away from it years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Fair enough. Cheap on Wizards part, but it is what it is.




 Personally I think the reserve list is a mistake hut WotC can't be trusted to over print the cards if they ever ditched it. There's probably legal reasons to keep it. 

 My preferred solution is something like Zendikar years ago. They seeded old cards in new packs. Similar idea but they do a very limited reprint of the cards and seed them in normal packs. 

 They're Uber rare espicially power 9. WotC are up front on how many copies they reprint. Power 9 not so many dual lands a bit more. Reprints not legal in miden magic but they are in vintage and legacy. 

 What they would be more likely to do is create premium products and reprint until the cards collapse in price. The ideal Tate stabilizes the prices of original power 9 ertc and a slow trickle of new cards come out.

 I kind of saw it years ago with Mythics which is when I bailed with standard decks hitting $1000. There was even a deck naned mythic that was full of mythics. What used to be rare became mythic then became tournament staples.

 The premium sets have also devalued normal boosters as a lot of chase cards are no longer found in normal boosters.

 I remember years ago we speculated if they ever reprinted the power 9 it's when magic is dying nothing to lose.


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## Scribe (Nov 15, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> I remember years ago we speculated if they ever reprinted the power 9 it's when magic is dying nothing to lose.




This is exactly my take. Its the 'squeeze the blood from the stone' moment. Get that last gasp of short term profits, and cash out kind of thing.

Its sad to me, unreasonably so.


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## Zardnaar (Nov 15, 2022)

Scribe said:


> This is exactly my take. Its the 'squeeze the blood from the stone' moment. Get that last gasp of short term profits, and cash out kind of thing.
> 
> Its sad to me, unreasonably so.




Seems there process has been to milk the whales but side effect has killed off standard. You know the one format that encourages people to buy more cards.


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## Scribe (Nov 15, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Seems there process has been to milk the whales but side effect has killed off standard. You know the one format that encourages people to buy more cards.




Yep, I mean in retrospect I imagine they will realize it but _again _I just actually felt between Maro/Forsythe we had guys at the helm who understood what they were doing. I lost that view over time, I mean a quick google shows that they are even asking now "why did standard die" on Forsythes twitter for Christ's sake....

Sad to see that I still care way too much about a damn game (that I once felt was the best game of all time!) that has been driven into the ground.


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## Zardnaar (Nov 15, 2022)

Scribe said:


> Yep, I mean in retrospect I imagine they will realize it but _again _I just actually felt between Maro/Forsythe we had guys at the helm who understood what they were doing. I lost that view over time, I mean a quick google shows that they are even asking now "why did standard die" on Forsythes twitter for Christ's sake....
> 
> Sad to see that I still care way too much about a damn game (that I once felt was the best game of all time!) that has been driven into the ground.




 Standard died from the sounds of it due to various factors. To many supported formats, price point of chase cards, low value sets, eliminating prizes for pro tour etc.

 Why drop money on standard when commander doesn't rotate and often allows proxies.

 If I ever played magic again (I still like the concept) pauper and sealed would be only things remotely interesting.

 Maybe draft if the sets as good as Ravnica.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Nov 15, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Seems there process has been to milk the whales



You can milk anything with nipples.


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## J.Quondam (Nov 15, 2022)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> You can milk anything with nipples.



Well, you could _try_.  But honey badger might have a different opinion.


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## Staffan (Nov 15, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Well, I think that the lesson is that WoTC needs to up their game.
> 
> "Honey, will you marry me?"
> 
> ...


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## darjr (Nov 15, 2022)

J.Quondam said:


> Well, you could _try_.  But honey badger might have a different opinion.



They don’t typically mind if well fed.

I mean their cubs do it.


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## Staffan (Nov 15, 2022)

J.Quondam said:


> Well, you could _try_.  But honey badger might have a different opinion.



I'm pretty sure Gabby isn't old enough.


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## J.Quondam (Nov 15, 2022)

Staffan said:


> I'm pretty sure Gabby isn't old enough.



I had to look that up! I didn't know there's such a Marvel character.


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## Henadic Theologian (Nov 16, 2022)

This has lead to talk about Amazon buying Hasbro, normally a silly idea, but now a strong possibility. Paramount would not be pleased.


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## Scribe (Nov 16, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> This has lead to talk about Amazon buying Hasbro, normally a silly idea, but now a strong possibility. Paramount would not be pleased.




At this point who even cares. I wonder what the total number of mega-corps will be if my son ends up having grand children....


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## Scribe (Nov 16, 2022)

lol


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## Blue (Nov 16, 2022)

Sacrosanct said:


> I threw in the towel in the mid 90s and sold all my cards.  Which turns out was a big mistake, because I had no idea they would end up being so valuable only a few years later.  doh!  I sold them to a buddy for $250 I think.  the last time I checked, I'd had thousands of dollars worth in today's value (I had a ton of the first few years of Magic cards, but no black lotus alas)



I sold my card in the early 2000s I think.  I was replacing all of the old leaky windows on my home.  Got a couple grand for it which was quite nice.  Still have somewhere a small pile (40-50) betas, all that had been played (unsleeved) and showing some wear but all usable.  No idea if they held any value.


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## Henadic Theologian (Nov 16, 2022)

Scribe said:


> At this point who even cares. I wonder what the total number of mega-corps will be if my son ends up having grand children....




 Zero, because I think eventually folks will realize that they will have to be busted up to create competition.


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## doctorbadwolf (Nov 16, 2022)

Scribe said:


> Even worse, they get a parachute,  and a wink/nod new executive position while the rest of us are lucky to get a severance.
> 
> My company going private again was such a relief.



Oh I meant the stockholders, who just dump stock when it’s convenient and move their money to something else. 

But yeah the executives are also catastrophically villainous.


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## Scribe (Nov 16, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> Zero, because I think eventually folks will realize that they will have to be busted up to create competition.



I'm sorry, but I do not expect people to be able to change the tide here.

My wife received a package from Amazon today, you know how it goes. Its very convenient, and when she couldnt find what she needed local, its shipped in a day or 2, which in and of itself, is madness.

So she opens the box, pissed off, it was a small item, the box was huge in comparison, and empty otherwise. A total waste. I thought on it for a moment after agreeing that it was stupid.

This small item was shipped out of a warehouse, this warehouse is hours by car, and HOURS by ferry, away from me. I know where it is. This box took up considerably more space than it needed, meaning less could be shipped, than potentially, and then X amount of fossil fuel was consumed in the delivery. This is waste, heaped on waste, heaped on pollution, for convenience that is killing local stores, mom and pop's, whatever, and we shop local, farm's, markets, all that, as much as we can.

Amazon is a mega-corp, and will only grow, as will Elon's empire, and the various other capitalist firms that actually pull the strings of our world behind the scenes as we all burn up our time on forums, social media, games, and work. 

Anyway.

I did a deeper dive on this whole Magic thing tonight, and honestly, its probably not the end of the world. Its going to be a shift in how Magic is delivered, and its going to feed into that killing of the local shops, the mom and pop stores, the places where you know "the Gathering" happened, but the game will be fine, Hasbro's stock will rebound, and some snakes will make a bit of $ in flipping some stocks around.

I dont think the suits are THAT stupid to kill the golden goose.


----------



## darjr (Nov 16, 2022)

This is getting a bit ridiculous.


----------



## Staffan (Nov 16, 2022)

Scribe said:


> I'm sorry, but I do not expect people to be able to change the tide here.
> 
> My wife received a package from Amazon today, you know how it goes. Its very convenient, and when she couldnt find what she needed local, its shipped in a day or 2, which in and of itself, is madness.
> 
> So she opens the box, pissed off, it was a small item, the box was huge in comparison, and empty otherwise. A total waste. I thought on it for a moment after agreeing that it was stupid.



My understanding is that this is because having only a few standardized box sizes is more efficient overall than having boxes adapted for each individual item. Basically, it's easier to play Tetris with the boxes if they are all 2x2 pieces.


----------



## darjr (Nov 16, 2022)

Just to emphasize the bizarro world the stock market lives in


----------



## Scribe (Nov 16, 2022)

darjr said:


> Just to emphasize the bizarro world the stock market lives in
> 
> View attachment 266836




The perception of reality, means more than reality, on the market. It says quite a bit about the state of the west actually... lol


----------



## Umbran (Nov 16, 2022)

darjr said:


> Just to emphasize the bizarro world the stock market lives in
> 
> View attachment 266836




So, for Eli Lily, it is important to realize the actual damage done.

The damage to Eli Lily wasn't someone pretending to be Eli Lily, and fooling people about a change n their business practices.  The damage to Eli Lily was _reminding people_ about their business practices.  The $8 blue check offered a pulpit that got used effectively to remind folks about the truth.


----------



## darjr (Nov 16, 2022)

Umbran said:


> So, for Eli Lily, it is important to realize the actual damage done.
> 
> The damage to Eli Lily wasn't someone pretending to be Eli Lily, and fouling people about a change n their business practices.  The damage to Eli Lily was _reminding people_ about their business practices.  The $8 blue check offered a pulpit that got used effectively to remind folks about the truth.



I dint think it was a secret before. And it was irrationally inflated anyway. Irrationality abounds.


----------



## UngainlyTitan (Nov 16, 2022)

Scribe said:


> *I'm sorry, but I do not expect people to be able to change the tide here.*
> 
> My wife received a package from Amazon today, you know how it goes. Its very convenient, and when she couldnt find what she needed local, its shipped in a day or 2, which in and of itself, is madness.
> 
> ...



People might not be able to change the tide, though I disagree on that, but the tide does change. Otherwise, the V.O.C would still dominate global shipping.


----------



## Umbran (Nov 16, 2022)

darjr said:


> I dint think it was a secret before.




There are a great many things that are not secrets that drift from our attention.


----------



## darjr (Nov 16, 2022)

Umbran said:


> There are a great many things that are not secrets that drift from our attention.



Or pull on our fears uncertainties doubts and greed.


----------



## Scribe (Nov 16, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> People might not be able to change the tide, though I disagree on that, but the tide does change. Otherwise, the V.O.C would still dominate global shipping.




Granted time can lead to change, and monopolies are broken up sometimes, but...I'm not holding my breath that Amazon is going to get weaker.


----------



## trappedslider (Nov 16, 2022)

Scribe said:


> The perception of reality, means more than reality, on the market. It says quite a bit about the state of the west actually... lol


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 16, 2022)

I don't use Amazon F that support local. 
 Not a communist but as I get older I can see why it appealed to  100 odd years ago.

 Perception is reality applies to more than the stock market imho.


----------



## Mannahnin (Nov 16, 2022)

Blue said:


> I sold my card in the early 2000s I think.  I was replacing all of the old leaky windows on my home.  Got a couple grand for it which was quite nice.  Still have somewhere a small pile (40-50) betas, all that had been played (unsleeved) and showing some wear but all usable.  No idea if they held any value.



Anything Beta has value.  Even commons and lands.  Even with some marks of play.


----------



## Blue (Nov 16, 2022)

Mannahnin said:


> Anything Beta has value.  Even commons and lands.  Even with some marks of play.



Cool.  I don't want to derail the thread, but I've been out of it for years - it there a recommendation of where I could go to see approximate values?


----------



## Scribe (Nov 16, 2022)

Blue said:


> Cool.  I don't want to derail the thread, but I've been out of it for years - it there a recommendation of where I could go to see approximate values?



Card Kingdom and Starcity Games were ones I used to frequent. Not sure what is best for selling though.


----------



## trappedslider (Nov 16, 2022)

Blue said:


> Cool.  I don't want to derail the thread, but I've been out of it for years - it there a recommendation of where I could go to see approximate values?



The Best Marketplace for Collectible Trading Card Games and Comic Books will give you a good idea for what the high,middle, and low value is, it's also what 90% of the market uses as a guide.


----------



## Scribe (Nov 16, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> The Best Marketplace for Collectible Trading Card Games and Comic Books will give you a good idea for what the high,middle, and low value is, it's also what 90% of the market uses as a guide.




There you go, it was on the tip of my brain, but I've never used that one for purchases in the past.


----------



## Scribe (Nov 17, 2022)

TLDR: Wizards intends to continue to flood the market. As of today anyway.


----------



## Birmy (Nov 17, 2022)

Staffan said:


> I'm pretty sure Gabby isn't old enough.



Not to take away from the joke, but isn't she "Scout" now?


----------



## Staffan (Nov 17, 2022)

Birmy said:


> Not to take away from the joke, but isn't she "Scout" now?



Yeah (unless she changed again), but still.


----------



## Art Waring (Nov 17, 2022)

Scribe said:


> TLDR: Wizards intends to continue to flood the market. As of today anyway.



I don't think they could stop the next year of production even if they wanted to, with their overloaded releases already locked in, and all those signed contracts to third parties to release 3rd party licensed products.

What's also concerning is the fact that the stock market, banks, major news outlets, and the internet are all fully aware of the situation (and many players, store owners, and collectors are angry and have been for years), and wotc has been completely silent on this issue.

Heads literally buried in the sand.

If you look at the wotc youtube video for the 30th anniversary set, it has over 5 thousand dislikes and less than 500 likes. The video above posted by Scribe is actually a re-release of the original video because the live comments section was so angry that they had to reupload it to cut out the comments it and it still got thousands of dislikes.

30th anniversary edition comes out in two weeks, and its sad that despite all the news coverage, their newly printed proxies will probably sell out anyway. Wizards always does test runs, and when they are a success, they do it again and again until its milked dry.

Rudy says in this video that this is a definitive moment in mtg history, whatever happens after the 30th anniversary release, for better or worse, things will never be the same. If it is a success, they will have no doubts about reprinting anything they want. Nevermind that a proxy mox pearl that just came out of a pack almost sold for $3000, _the same cost for a 30 year old vintage Unlimited Mox pearl_. It will likely crash the collectors market just like baseball cards when they went into overproducing, now they (baseball cards) are worthless.


----------



## Stormonu (Nov 17, 2022)

Squeezing the golden goose until you strangle it.


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 17, 2022)

Stormonu said:


> Squeezing the golden goose until you strangle it.




 Pretty much. 

 Depending on how these overpriced proxies go it essentially greenlights them to print whatever. 

 They started directly manipulating the secondary market a few years ago directly selling expensive rares vs reprinting them in a new set.


----------



## trappedslider (Nov 17, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Pretty much.
> 
> Depending on how these overpriced proxies go it essentially greenlights them to print whatever.
> 
> They started directly manipulating the secondary market a few years ago directly selling expensive rares vs reprinting them in a new set.



Are you referring to the secret lairs?


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 17, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Are you referring to the secret lairs?



I think  that is them. The first one was bitterblossom and the product was priced very close to the secondary market for 4-5 cards iirc. 

 I had quit D&D but still had friends mentioning it.


----------



## Scribe (Nov 17, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Are you referring to the secret lairs?




This is one of them the issues, yes. The 'direct to x format' releases that skip Standard are also an issue. Anyway, here's another video, will be interesting to see what happens.


----------



## Scribe (Nov 17, 2022)

Random google hit, not vouching for the site, dont know it, dont use it.









						Hasbro Puts Entertainment One Film, TV Unit Up for Sale
					

Exploring a formal auction comes as the toy giant says eOne is no longer “supporting” its branded entertainment strategy.




					www.hollywoodreporter.com


----------



## Rabulias (Nov 17, 2022)

Scribe said:


> Random google hit, not vouching for the site, dont know it, dont use it.



_The Hollywood Reporter _is pretty reputable. _Variety _also has this story:








						Hasbro Puts eOne Up for Sale Less Than 3 Years After Closing $3.8 Billion Acquisition
					

Hasbro has listed Entertainment One’s (eOne) TV and film units for sale just under three years after acquiring the businesses in a $3.8 billion deal. Per Hasbro, the sale includes the parts o…




					variety.com


----------



## Scribe (Nov 17, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> _The Hollywood Reporter _is pretty reputable. _Variety _also has this story:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, looks like some new priorities.


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 18, 2022)

Stupid questions for Americans? The $999 30th edition boosters does that probably exclude tax?


----------



## darjr (Nov 18, 2022)

The eOne divestiture is actually an older story. Been going in for a few months at least.


----------



## Scribe (Nov 18, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Stupid questions for Americans? The $999 30th edition boosters does that probably exclude tax?




Meaning before tax? I believe so based on what I'm hearing.


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 18, 2022)

Scribe said:


> Meaning before tax? I believe so based on what I'm hearing.




 Yeah just fact checking that video. 
 Did some further reading. Odds of popping a mox is 1%. One went for $3000 recently similar in price to an original one (unlimited?). 

  100 packs are $25k that could give you several pieces for f power no idea how much a black lotus would go for. 

 Can't use them in game but they might have some value as collectables idk.


----------



## Scribe (Nov 18, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Odds of popping a mox is 1%. One went for $3000 recently similar in price to an original one (unlimited?).




I think that auction was terminated, but havent seen the video on it yet.

Either way, yes. These are essentially 'official' proxy cards. It doesnt leave a good feeling.


----------



## Henadic Theologian (Nov 18, 2022)

darjr said:


> Just to emphasize the bizarro world the stock market lives in
> 
> View attachment 266836




 I wonder if they will be able to sue Twitter? Hones if they do, I hope they both lose, they deserve what happened to them.


----------



## darjr (Nov 18, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> I wonder if they will be able to sue Twitter? Hones if they do, I hope they both lose, they deserve what happened to them.



There has to be a twitter to sue. No twitter Elon gets the tag!


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 18, 2022)

Personally wouldnt care if Twitter and/or Facebook go bankrupt.


----------



## phuong (Nov 18, 2022)

darjr said:


> Just to emphasize the bizarro world the stock market lives in
> 
> View attachment 266836



You think we are missing a buy opportunity and it is undervalued?  Go ahead, spend all your money on it.

Or maybe think a little why defense stocks went down after the midterm results and progress in Ukraine war....


----------



## Henadic Theologian (Nov 18, 2022)

"Per Hasbro, the sale includes the parts of eOne’s TV and film operations “not directly supporting the company’s branded entertainment strategy,” and “Hasbro will maintain the capability to develop and produce animation, digital shorts, scripted TV and theatrical films for audiences related to core Hasbro IP.”

That means brands like “Peppa Pig,” “Transformers,” “Dungeons & Dragons,” “Magic: The Gathering,” “My Little Pony,” “Power Rangers,” “Play-Doh,” and “Monopoly” and “Clue” are not only excluded from the sale, but will see “significant development, production and financing capabilities” support across film, TV, animation and digital shorts."

 The rumoured possibility is confirmed, the question is given that these properties were making Hasbro money, what is worth selling them to reinvest in? Expanding the parts of Eone that remain? Maybe expanding Wizards of the Coast?

 I assume that they will be renamed to Hasbro Entertainment or Wizards of the Coast Entertainment (or hell maybe they'll just straight up merge it into Wizards of the Coast like they did with Digital Licensing).

 And I wonder who the prospective buyers are? Netflix or Sony or Paramount I'm guessing. Could be Amazon or Apple I guess, but I think Amazon would prefer to just buy Hasbro period, especially with Hasbro's stock crash, especially if it goes lower.

 Here more of Rudy taking shots at WotC/Hasbro.


----------



## Henadic Theologian (Nov 18, 2022)

Just learned about this, a lot of banks/credit cards are refusing to do business with Hasbro because of fraudulent practices.


 This is really, really bad for Hasbro and WotC.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 18, 2022)

phuong said:


> You think we are missing a buy opportunity and it is undervalued?  Go ahead, spend all your money on it.
> 
> Or maybe think a little why defense stocks went down after the midterm results and progress in Ukraine war....



*Mod Note:*

This is getting close to crossing a line Re: politics we don’t permit here.  Please don’t go further down this path, thank you.


----------



## LuisCarlos17f (Nov 18, 2022)

I haven't enough information to give an opinion about a hypothetical buble of the M:tG cards. Teorically Hasbro's strategy was getting ready for a upcoming bad economic years, or "years of flat cows". Maybe the buble bursts now because somebody wants Hasbro's stock shares lost value then cheaper to be bought (and then awaiting the years of "flat cows" or with a good economy). But something strange is happening. Amazon and Disney, two important partners of Hasbro, aren't in the best time now. 

And if there is a global economic crisis soon, then the people will have to save money, and this means less expenses in entertaiment. If a companies doesn't got well it may be aquired by a "bigger fish" but now even Blackrock, maybe the most important investment funds in the world is said to go bankrupt. Blackrock is one of investors of Hasbro and other companies.

* I think Magic: Beyond Universe is a right marketing strategy, because this is a product not only for M:tG players but fandom collectors.


----------



## Henadic Theologian (Nov 18, 2022)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> I haven't enough information to give an opinion about a hypothetical buble of the M:tG cards. Teorically Hasbro's strategy was getting ready for a upcoming bad economic years, or "years of flat cows". Maybe the buble bursts now because somebody wants Hasbro's stock shares lost value then cheaper to be bought (and then awaiting the years of "flat cows" or with a good economy). But something strange is happening. Amazon and Disney, two important partners of Hasbro, aren't in the best time now.
> 
> And if there is a global economic crisis soon, then the people will have to save money, and this means less expenses in entertaiment. If a companies doesn't got well it may be aquired by a "bigger fish" but now even Blackrock, maybe the most important investment funds in the world is said to go bankrupt. Blackrock is one of investors of Hasbro and other companies.
> 
> * I think Magic: Beyond Universe is a right marketing strategy, because this is a product not only for M:tG players but fandom collectors.




 It's a different Blackrock that went bankrupt sadly, not The Blackrock, but BR did lose over 1.7 trillion dollars.


----------



## Art Waring (Nov 18, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Stupid questions for Americans? The $999 30th edition boosters does that probably exclude tax?



Before tax, after tax it comes to like $1100. This is really bad for countries like Brazil, where 1000 US is about 10000 Brazilian currency (enough to buy a car). They are effectively priced out of magic for good if this is the new trend.


----------



## Art Waring (Nov 18, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Yeah just fact checking that video.
> Did some further reading. Odds of popping a mox is 1%. One went for $3000 recently similar in price to an original one (unlimited?).
> 
> 100 packs are $25k that could give you several pieces for f power no idea how much a black lotus would go for.
> ...



The story on this is that the ebay seller is a decent fellow. Speculators were pushing up the price for the mox, and the winning bid was from an account with 0% feedback. The seller, after talking to the community, decided to cancel the sale and wait until the set has been out long enough for prices to become more realistic.

Nobody knows what these cards are actually worth yet, _being unplayable proxies_, and from many expert perspectives these cards will likely crash the secondary market (whats the point of paying for a vintage mox if they are now reprinting proxy versions as much as they want to).

The issue is wotc manipulating the secondary market for profit. If the price of vintage cards crashes (many older RL cards are already dropping down to half their value because collectors are liquidating their collections), then their new cards aren't worth anything at all either (because they are projecting the sets "value" based on the real vintage cards).

.......

Putting that aside, what if you wanted to do a draft tournament to experience what it was like to draft alpha packs? Well, for that experience you will be paying $10,000 US to get enough packs to draft with, before tax (that's over 100,000 Brazilian currency).

Add to this rising costs of living and inflation, and cards have never been so expensive. What is the players response? They simply aren't buying anything. Look at every recent collectors box, all of them are down to half the retail price from release (_meaning retailers and LGS' lost a lot of money_).

News reports state the FLGS' have been unable to sell 7 out of 8 mtg products, and are overloaded with backstock that they cannot sell or return. The people who are suffering the worst are the game stores. Wotc doesn't really care about LGS' anymore, with direct to amazon distribution and secret lairs, game stores can't survive on mtg, and are being forced to adapt by changing their business model away from mtg.


----------



## Scribe (Nov 18, 2022)

Art Waring said:


> The people who are suffering the worst are the game stores. Wotc doesn't really care about LGS' anymore, with direct to amazon distribution and secret lairs, game stores can't survive on mtg, and are being forced to adapt by changing their business model away from mtg.



This is the kicker. Any LGS I have spoken to, has survived on MTG sales and foot traffic generated by MTG.

Granted  I'm not in a booming metropolis.


----------



## Art Waring (Nov 18, 2022)

Scribe said:


> This is the kicker. Any LGS I have spoken to, has survived on MTG sales and foot traffic generated by MTG.
> 
> Granted  I'm not in a booming metropolis.



A LGS I frequented for years, almost exclusively mtg, were literally dumping their entire mtg stock, and this was over two years ago I think I was last in a LGS in the US.

I walked in last time I was in the area, and they had piles and piles of cards on every table in the shop, their entire mtg stock, and the single employee behind the counter. We started talking, and they said C-19 killed their mtg business, and they were forced to dump their stock in bulk on ebay. Already sold off singles and just getting rid of the bulk commons in grab bags.

This was before the current situation, where stores cant make any kind of profit on sealed product because of the direct to amazon issue.

At the time the only other product they had in the store was a final fantasy ccg.


----------



## wicked cool (Nov 19, 2022)

This isn’t a surprise. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a company like wizkids/pathfinder etc join the mix. Printing costs alone are at their highest 

You have oversaturated the market with product in a bad economy. Then due to costs you had to raise prices. Then you had to remain competitive for hiring.. on top of that due to shipping your product arrives all at once. Plus you have kids who are just not interested in board games
How do you remain profitable when every aspect as increased these past 2 years. 

Banks want to see trending upwards.


----------



## Art Waring (Nov 19, 2022)

On a more positive note, here is a video for how to support your local LGS.

If you own a LGS and you have excess sealed mtg inventory that you can't sell, perhaps consider doing some randomized drafts for $10.

Support your LGS before buying from amazon, even doing trades instead of purchases with the shop can help your LGS stay open.


----------



## Scribe (Nov 19, 2022)

Language Warning, NSFW, lol.


----------



## Scribe (Nov 19, 2022)

OK, I think this is last one for me probably, unless Rudy makes another funny one.

1. I am against proxy cards. Want to play them, buy them.
2. I am generally pretty hard on the "IP holder" side of disagreements between companies and people making profit off of the IP by 3rd party means.
3. I did not research this myself, that said. Card Conjurer - Welcome
4. It is way too funny, that Wizards would want to get in on printing their own proxies, and now seemingly go after people who provide a service already doing that.


----------



## GreyLord (Nov 20, 2022)

You know, all my stocks have hurt this year...a LOT.  I've lost a LOT of money this year so far...luckily I'm a long run guy rather than short term...so I don't (edit: sell instead of sale) often.

Hasbro...oh Hasbro...we'll see where it goes.

I don't think it's hit the low of 2020 yet though...so that's good.

Always try to see the positive...

However, if this keeps up with the stock market in general (though tech stocks I think are starting to rebound...maybe?) I may have to stop being retired for the most part.


----------



## Scribe (Nov 21, 2022)

GreyLord said:


> Always try to see the positive..



I will say, if one has been looking for a deal on some specific cards, everything I've looked at is close to its lowest price.


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 22, 2022)

Scribe said:


> I will say, if one has been looking for a deal on some specific cards, everything I've looked at is close to its lowest price.




 Reserve list went down off their website. People panic selling I guess. 

 Fear is wotc reprints power 9+ reserve list cards.


----------



## Staffan (Nov 22, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Reserve list went down off their website. People panic selling I guess.
> 
> Fear is wotc reprints power 9+ reserve list cards.


----------



## trappedslider (Nov 22, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Reserve list went down off their website. People panic selling I guess.
> 
> Fear is wotc reprints power 9+ reserve list cards.






Staffan said:


> View attachment 267513



Then it got put back up, it was taken down due to a tech issue that also saw a few older mtg articles disappear as well.


----------



## Henadic Theologian (Nov 26, 2022)

They just did an insane Amazon dump, like prices below what not just LGS get products for, but below what distributors get it for.

 They just screwed the entire MtG ecosystem. Folks are flipping out.

 I think this could lead to somekind of class action lawsuit.

 Anyways below is Rudy's thoughts.


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 26, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> They just did an insane Amazon dump, like prices below what not just LGS get products for, but below what distributors get it for.
> 
> They just screwed the entire MtG ecosystem. Folks are flipping out.
> 
> ...




Haven't they got heaps of unsold stock or something?


----------



## Sacrosanct (Nov 26, 2022)

Step 1: Hire someone outside of roleplaying to run the brand
Step 2: Flood the market with unsold merchandise.

Next step: Expect a Buck Rogers RPG any day now.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Nov 26, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> I think this could lead to somekind of class action lawsuit.



On what grounds could this possibly be a class action lawsuit?  Being upset/being a jerk =/= justification of being suing/being sued.   Unless there is a contract that Hasbro wouldn't sell these direct, I don't see how anyone could sue.  Free market and all that.


----------



## Scribe (Nov 26, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> They just did an insane Amazon dump, like prices below what not just LGS get products for, but below what distributors get it for.
> 
> They just screwed the entire MtG ecosystem. Folks are flipping out.
> 
> ...




Wow. Just going out with a bang here I guess.

Wow.


----------



## LuisCarlos17f (Nov 26, 2022)

I don't know your laws, but at least in my law "unfair administration" is a crime (but if you work in the goverment). 

Understanding this is not very easy for me. If there is a buble about the cards of M:tG then they had to have realises about the signs of danger. They are the first ones who should know what is sold better and how many.


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 26, 2022)

Scribe said:


> Wow. Just going out with a bang here I guess.
> 
> Wow.




 I knew the secondary market was on trouble. Eg new product was being sold cheaper than distributors could get it. On some product. 

 That's the latest set afaik so ouch. Side effect of killing standard maybe.


----------



## Scribe (Nov 26, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> I knew the secondary market was on trouble. Eg new product was being sold cheaper than distributors could get it. On some product.
> 
> That's the latest set afaik so ouch. Side effect of killing standard maybe.



The markets been getting smashed, this is just gas on the fire now.


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 26, 2022)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> I don't know your laws, but at least in my law "unfair administration" is a crime (but if you work in the goverment).
> 
> Understanding this is not very easy for me. If there is a buble about the cards of M:tG then they had to have realises about the signs of danger. They are the first ones who should know what is sold better and how many.




 They did ask recently why people no longer play standard.


----------



## Henadic Theologian (Nov 26, 2022)

Scribe said:


> The markets been getting smashed, this is just gas on the fire now.




 Not just gas, rocket fuel then salting the earth where the market once stood.

 This is why I think WotC is opening themselves up to legal action, they sold a ton of Dominaria United and other sets to distrubutors with the understsnding that the distrubuters then sell to LGSs who sell to regular folks, then a couple of months later they completely under cut the price to below distrubuter costs. No way that can be legal.


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 26, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> Not just gas, rocket fuel then salting the earth where the market once stood.
> 
> This is why I think WotC is opening themselves up to legal action, they sold a ton of Dominaria United and other sets to distrubutors with the understsnding that the distrubuters then sell to LGSs who sell to regular folks, then a couple of months later they completely under cut the price to below distrubuter costs. No way that can be legal.




 This worsebthsn chronicles back in the day?


----------



## Art Waring (Nov 26, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Haven't they got heaps of unsold stock or something?



They have massive warehouses full of countless palettes of sealed product, yet they still print more. Not to mention plenty of LGS' and distributors are also stuck with sealed product that they can't sell, because amazon dumps undercut their entire business model.

What they couldn't sell, they are now repacking into "mystery" boxes to resell at inflated prices, while including stuff that nobody wanted in the first place.

The ccg industry needs to look to other business models to be sustainable (not that they have shown any signs of desiring sustainability over short term profit). Atm, they are happy printing mtg into oblivion because shareholders don't care about the longevity of the brand.

Look at LCG's (living card games) like Dominion, _you get the entire set of cards all in one box for $30-40_, and everyone uses cards from the box, so no can "pay to win" by having better cards than their competitors. Everyone is on equal terms. Yes it isn't "collectible" but it sure as hell is playable.


----------



## LuisCarlos17f (Nov 26, 2022)

Sorry, maybe I have read too many conspirancy theories to give a sensible answer, but after some things happened, it sounds as if anybody didn't want Hasbro became too important, because this is not enoughly controlled by them.

This sounds as an infiltrator sabotaging to drop the value of the company, and then this would cheaper to be aquired by a bigger fish. Why? Because the potential value of the brands and franchises. If Hasbro played well its cards this could become an entertaiment empire as Disney.


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## trappedslider (Nov 26, 2022)

Art Waring said:


> The ccg industry needs to look to other business models to be sustainable (not that they have shown any signs of desiring sustainability over short term profit). Atm, they are happy printing mtg into oblivion because shareholders don't care about the longevity of the brand.



Pokemon is doing great, Disney is getting around to launching their own ccg, Yu-Gi-Oh is picking steam again. The CCG industry is more than MTG. The CCG indsutry as a whole is doing fine.


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## Scribe (Nov 26, 2022)

The model for MTG worked for a very very long time. Can they close Pandora's box now? I dont know. If they COULD would that get us back in a few years to normality?

I think possibly, with some aggressive banning of some cards that still shouldnt exist.


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## Art Waring (Nov 26, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Pokemon is doing great, Disney is getting around to launching their own ccg, Yu-Gi-Oh is picking steam again. The CCG industry is more than MTG. The CCG as a whole is doing fine.



Well it depends on who you ask I guess. Yes, most ccg's appear to be doing fine, but every collectible market is a bubble waiting to pop, similar to the crash of baseball cards or the collapse of comics in the 90s.

History bears the lesson that most things labeled "collectable" lose value over time once the bubble bursts. Beanie Babies, baseball cards, Hummel figurines (look these up, once they cost a fortune, now you cant sell them anywhere), Morgan Dollars (now sold for pennies on the dollar and worth more melted down), Franklin mint collectibles, the list goes on and on...


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## LuisCarlos17f (Nov 26, 2022)

But WotC has got the adventage of the licenced franchises. This has been the goal with the Magic: Beyond Universe, and my opinion is here the idea is good because is a merchandising product could be bought by collectors besides the ordinary players.

And I guess the main target is the online videogame market. Then here the physical cards would be more for collector than hardcore players.

Other point is the new lines being created aren't only for the card game, but also for other type of products later. Hasbro is betting for the creation of multimedia franchises.

And even when other companies making money with the CCG Magic is the master of the market, among other reasons players would rather spend money in games played by the most, because it is easier other players to play with.

---

Let's remember we are near of the end of year, Christmas, when most of toys are sold for these days.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Nov 26, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> Not just gas, rocket fuel then salting the earth where the market once stood.
> 
> This is why I think WotC is opening themselves up to legal action, they sold a ton of Dominaria United and other sets to distrubutors with the understsnding that the distrubuters then sell to LGSs who sell to regular folks, then a couple of months later they completely under cut the price to below distrubuter costs. No way that can be legal.



I think you’re confusing moral with legal. Unless there is a specific clause in a contract, I don’t see how a company choosing to sell its goods is illegal. Amazon and Walmart have been doing it (undercutting) for decades.


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## trappedslider (Nov 26, 2022)

Art Waring said:


> Well it depends on who you ask I guess. Yes, most ccg's appear to be doing fine, but every collectible market is a bubble waiting to pop, similar to the crash of baseball cards or the collapse of comics in the 90s.
> 
> History bears the lesson that most things labeled "collectable" lose value over time once the bubble bursts. Beanie Babies, baseball cards, Hummel figurines (look these up, once they cost a fortune, now you cant sell them anywhere), Morgan Dollars (now sold for pennies on the dollar and worth more melted down), Franklin mint collectibles, the list goes on and on...



There's a considerable difference (IMO) between those other collectibles and CCGs. The GAME aspect. Also, that comparison gets made every time there's a downturn in sales with MTG that ignores the rest of the CCG market.









						Collectible Card Game Market Business Growth 2022, Industry Share, Global Size, Demand Analysis, Emerging Trends, Key Players and Regional Forecast to 2027
					

Oct 07, 2022 (The Expresswire) -- "Final Report will add the analysis of the impact of COVID-19 on this industry." The Global Collectible Card Game Market...




					www.marketwatch.com
				




I may be reading too much in your post but to me, it seems that you have a dislike towards CCGs.


----------



## Art Waring (Nov 26, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> I may be reading too much in your post but to me, it seems that you have a dislike towards CCGs.



On the contrary, I have extensively played almost every big tent ccg except pokemon (mtg, st, sw, VtM, Netrunner, Battletech, Jih, AvP, Term, ME-ICE, L5r), countless independent ccg's, helped playtest a few, and even designed a few card games of my own.

What I dislike is the idea that during a recession and an economic downturn, we are presented with the most expensive ccg product to date in mtg's history, M30 at $1100 for 60 randomized proxy cards after tax. Essentially saying, don't bother showing up unless you are a whale with bags of disposable cash.

The cost in dollars ($1100 after tax) equates to over $10,000 Brazilian currency, a price no one can reasonably afford (the cost is equivalent to buying a car in that region of the world). Add insult to injury, the cards are not tournament legal, and their price is being speculated on based on previous tournament legal prints from 30 years ago.

The best comparable set is collectors edition which was released in 1993 for $50 retail, and included every card in the alpha/ beta set in one box including power 9. Todays M30 set is essentially a reprint of the collectors edition, at a price of over a grand for 60 random cards. An entire draft box would go for over $10,000, and you likely wont get every card due to the new rarity system. That is a pretty steep difference in price.


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## trappedslider (Nov 26, 2022)

Art Waring said:


> On the contrary, I have extensively played almost every big tent ccg except pokemon (mtg, st, sw, VtM, Netrunner, Battletech, Jih, AvP, Term, ME-ICE, L5r), countless independent ccg's, helped playtest a few, and even designed a few card games of my own.
> 
> What I dislike is the idea that during a recession and an economic downturn, we are presented with the most expensive ccg product to date in mtg's history, M30 at $1100 for 60 randomized proxy cards after tax. Essentially saying, don't bother showing up unless you are a whale with bags of disposable cash.
> 
> ...



Your dislike doesn't mean that you should dismiss the global CCG industry which seems to be chugging along quite nicely.


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## Art Waring (Nov 26, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Your dislike doesn't mean that you should dismiss the global CCG industry which seems to be chugging along quite nicely.



You are not reading my posts, I have not dismissed card games, I am simply not in favor of treating cardboard as rare collectibles. Artificial scarcity does not equate to a healthy system for anyone when these games are supposed to be affordable by everyone.

I may be reading too much in your post but to me, it seems that you have a dislike towards games that are actually affordable to the public.


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## trappedslider (Nov 26, 2022)

Art Waring said:


> You are not reading my posts, I have not dismissed card games, I am simply not in favor of treating cardboard as rare collectibles. Artificial scarcity does not equate to a healthy system for anyone when these games are supposed to be affordable by everyone.
> 
> I may be reading too much in your post but to me, it seems that you have a dislike towards games that are actually affordable to the public.



This is the comment that made me think you were dismissing the rest of the CCGs while focusing only on MTG



> The ccg industry needs to look to other business models to be sustainable




I'm actually in favor of the RL being gone and I think the recent moves with the m30 are honestly stupid. I'm also a big proponent of the secondary market. Does a secondary market even exist for a living card game?


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## Art Waring (Nov 26, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> the global CCG industry seems to be chugging along quite nicely.



Except its not.

l5r ccg discontinued

best ccgs

current most popular ccgs

dicebreaker top 10 ccgs 2021

Of all the numerous ccg's released, only the big top three (pokemon, mtg, yugioh) are still active, while the rest are being discontinued or dropped by publishers.

I think Flesh and Blood is doing well, but its pretty new and too early to tell about that one.


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## Art Waring (Nov 26, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> This is the comment that made me think you were dismissing the rest of the CCGs while focusing only on MTG



Ok I get it, but you did kind of take it out of context because there is a bit to unpack in the whole statement I guess. Its cool man.



trappedslider said:


> I'm actually in favor of the RL being gone and I think the recent moves with the m30 are honestly stupid. I'm also a big proponent of the secondary market. Does a secondary market even exist for a living card game?



Me too I agree, I just want to play the classic cards with my friends and remember the good times we had back in the 90's, it shouldn't cost a fortune to do that.

Does a secondary market exist for the LCG's? Yes i believe they do, except they go by the price of the whole set not just individual cards because lcg's are often deckbuilding games. So each set would be sold on a secodary market as a whole.


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## trappedslider (Nov 26, 2022)

Art Waring said:


> Ok I get it, but you did kind of take it out of context because there is a bit to unpack in the whole statement I guess. Its cool man.
> 
> 
> Me too I agree, I just want to play the classic cards with my friends and remember the good times we had back in the 90's, it shouldn't cost a fortune to do that.
> ...



yeah, I did zero in on that statement, while basically ignoring the rest and the actual intent. I see that now. 



Art Waring said:


> Except its not.
> 
> l5r ccg discontinued
> 
> ...



 Your view is honestly more global since mine is limited to the big three.


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## Art Waring (Nov 27, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Your view is honestly more global since mine is limited to the big three.



I just like to keep informed, because sometimes parallels can be seen in the ttrpg industry, for example: licensed IP's tend to do well to ok for the initial run in both ccgs & ttrpgs, but eventually taper off or end with the end of the license (and they are often not renewed). 

You can look at star wars as a good example of having a successful run of both several ttrpgs & several ccgs, except each ccg sw game was discontinued because the licensing often became too costly to retain while the games failed to earn enough to keep the license and keep printing the game, same with many of the rpg's published for sw.

Of course, some of it means nothing at all in relation to the entire industry, but its just something that interests me, and I have a habit of doing deep dives into unimportant subjects, part of my conditioning from my college days I guess.


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## Zardnaar (Nov 27, 2022)

Went to play D&D today and the flags was running an event for Flesh and Blood. 

 They managed to get 21 players, owner said Standard is dead and EDH and Modern were the formats offered. Had a quick chat and he asked if we were aware of the various issues. 

 I'm aware of some of them rest of group doesn't care.


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## Scribe (Nov 27, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> They managed to get 21 players, owner said Standard is dead and EDH and Modern were the formats offered.



Yeah this is the thing. I know people have said Modern was unavailable to them, and yes some decks were expensive but Modern was, for a long long time, the best format. I'm not surprised it's still one of the most played.


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## trappedslider (Nov 27, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Went to play D&D today and the flags was running an event for Flesh and Blood.
> 
> They managed to get 21 players, owner said Standard is dead and EDH and Modern were the formats offered. Had a quick chat and he asked if we were aware of the various issues.
> 
> I'm aware of some of them rest of group doesn't care.



meanwhile, The @facetofacegames Tour Championship has kicked off with 344 players battling it out for the coveted Pro Tour and World Championship invitations.


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## Zardnaar (Nov 27, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> meanwhile, The @facetofacegames Tour Championship has kicked off with 344 players battling it out for the coveted Pro Tour and World Championship invitations.




 You'll still get numbers for the big events. 

 WotC themselves asked what the problem with standard was. It's not dead dead but it's struggling and dead in some locations.

 From when I played it's fragmented into three groups. Gen X used to organize things for mstookals, pre releasess etc provide tanles etc. 

 Until recently one gamestore was still using tables we supplied back in 2008 or so they just got passed down through the magic generations. Think we did a chip in $10 or cards to sell event and bought said tables. 

 Gen X organization zers retired and the millennial successors graduated and left town. 

 Still see some of the kids we used to run for 15-20 years ago they're in mid 30's now one owns a bar and offered a free beer.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Nov 27, 2022)

And now here it is where I say we should remember other point: the industry of physical card games have got now a serious rival, the videogames based in card games. These don't need a powerful software, and they can be played softly with a laptop.


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## Henadic Theologian (Nov 27, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Pokemon is doing great, Disney is getting around to launching their own ccg, Yu-Gi-Oh is picking steam again. The CCG industry is more than MTG. The CCG indsutry as a whole is doing fine.




 There is also Flesh and Blood, I don't play it, but it's increasingly popular and flavourwise is more a kin to MtG then say Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon, and Lorcana (Disney).


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## Mannahnin (Nov 28, 2022)

Scribe said:


> The model for MTG worked for a very very long time. Can they close Pandora's box now? I dont know. If they COULD would that get us back in a few years to normality?



I am kind of wondering how they screwed this up, and if it's the pandemic that finally broke the model for Standard.

Magic was doing quite well, selling briskly and supporting multiple competitive formats going into the pandemic, as I recall.  Arena came out prior to the pandemic and finally gave WotC a modern digital offering with enjoyable graphics and animations, which _could _be played for free but made it really easy and tempting to spend money on digital cards, for Constructed or Limited play.  And to my understanding it's made a ton of money.  So that should have just added to their margins, unless paper players started abandoning in-person play in favor of Arena.

My personal perspective: After taking a long break from buying new product from the late 90s until about 2013 or so, I got back into playing limited (Draft and Sealed) at local stores, plus some cube draft at a friend's house.  Once I got back into draft, to do so I was acquiring new cards of the current set on a regular basis, and when I did well, winning more packs of the current set as prizes, and often Friday Night Magic foil promo cards with cool art.

Since I had all these recent cards, and since I was in the stores regularly and SEEING people playing Standard (as well as other formats), it made sense to build a Standard deck or two.  It wasn't a huge additional investment of cash, though some.  It gave me a use for the cards I drafted and won.  It wasn't an enormous investment of time or effort in learning the cards, because I had to read and learn them anyway for Limited play.  I wasn't as interested in Commander or Modern because they necessitated a) retroactively learning a much larger card pool from the 15-ish years I had been away, and b) acquiring more expensive older cards.  Any FNM promo cards I had but didn't want also became trade bait.  Standard was a logical stepping stone from Limited play into Constructed.  And I DID gradually work on acquiring cards for Modern decks, and built a couple of budget ones, again since my friends at the store often played Modern.

There was also a good online support and promotional ecosystem for Standard and Limited (and to a lesser extent formats like Modern and Legacy), with folks streaming Magic the Gathering Online (and later Arena), WotC streaming coverage of Grand Prixs and Pro Tour tournaments, Star City Games streaming coverage of their tournaments, SCG and TCGPlayer paying pros to write tournament coverage, deck and card analysis and strategy articles, etc.  YouTube also had a ton of video content if that was more convenient for you than watching live streaming.  If you got bit by the bug you had plenty of options for content to feed it.  People sometimes decried the continual churn of cards in Standard's rotating format as a cash sink, but the investment needed at any given time wasn't that high for a hobby, and the barrier to entry was definitely lower than older formats where merely acquiring the older rare lands needed for your mana base could be hundreds of dollars for a single deck (or thousands, for Legacy and Vintage).

Eventually my hobby and free time priorities shifted again and I no longer regularly had Friday evenings or Saturday afternoons free to go draft at a local store, so my play and spending dropped way off, though I've kept up the habit of watching streaming play on Twitch a fair amount, and it's definitely something I'd be interested in getting back into at some point if and when my schedule and priorities change.

Do folks think it really come down to the pandemic breaking this on-ramp into Standard (Limited play giving people all these cards)?  Or am I just thinking from my own perspective and how I got in?  I do also wonder how much WotC dropping support for the Pro Tour and Grand Prix tournament ecosystem, and all the coverage it used to get, factors in.


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## Art Waring (Nov 28, 2022)

Mannahnin said:


> Do folks think it really come down to the pandemic breaking this on-ramp into Standard? Limited play giving people all these cards? Or am I just thinking from my own perspective and how I got in? I do also wonder how much WotC dropping support for the Pro Tour and Grand Prix tournament ecosystem, and all the coverage it used to get, factors in.



During covid paper mtg was in crisis mode for wotc because no one was able to play in person in stores. Locally all the LGS' except one closed for good after the first year of covid (and they were all heavily reliant on paper mtg to survive). So yes partly covid but it was also several company decisions after the fact.

Add to that the bottleneck in card production at the time, right before they changed to the current print schedule (massive prints and amazon dumps are standard practice now).

Wotc decided to drop paper tournament support, and earlier FNM, and other support for LGS' while simultaneously ramping up their mtg arena online. They pushed players online to keep profits coming in (because paper mtg's growth was stunted by C-19), and they never changed the model back to support standard in store formats.

Additionally, their straight to amazon dumps, undercutting LGS' have hit the stores hard. LGS' aren't seeing any support from mtg right now, and a lot of them have been burned on overpaying for sealed product when it gets dumped later on amazon at reduced price, sometimes at half the price they paid.

That was all on the LGS side.

On the player side, increased production of sets (now every six weeks i think?) effectively priced a lot of people out of standard, primarily because everyone has to replace their cards every few months rather than around once a year. Mythic chase cards are also designed to be "staple" cards, pushing prices ever higher, right up until they get banned a few months after release (more card bans in last two years than in the entire history of mtg).

Players trying to keep up are forced to spend more than they ever have on mtg, but have learned the hard way that sealed product never gives you a return on investment. You can crack a whole case of booster boxes and might not get the mythics you were looking for, or only get one or two of the card when you need a playset, for a whole case. This pushes more players into the secondary market instead of opening sealed product, where wotc makes nothing at all on secondary card sales.

Their strategy then went on to include more "staples" _and particularly_ commander staples into new standard sets, forcing EDH/ commander players to keep buying new product as well. 

---> *Not to mention FIRE design*, where new cards are now outpacing older ones, staying with older cards will eventually leave you out of the loop. Standard will keep pressing forward, because its primarily played online now, but as a paper format is is effectively dead until they choose to support it again.

EDH/ Commander are the only games I can find locally now at any LGS' (and that's ok), they aren't even doing booster drafts at any of the nearby stores.


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## Henadic Theologian (Nov 28, 2022)

Art Waring said:


> During covid paper mtg was in crisis mode for wotc because no one was able to play in person in stores. Locally all the LGS' except one closed for good after the first year of covid (and they were all heavily reliant on paper mtg to survive). So yes partly covid but it was also several company decisions after the fact.
> 
> Add to that the bottleneck in card production at the time, right before they changed to the current print schedule (massive prints and amazon dumps are standard practice now).
> 
> ...




 This year had few bans compared to last year.


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## Art Waring (Nov 28, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> This year had few bans compared to last year.



Did it? my bad. I guess change it to "in recent years" then.


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## Scribe (Nov 28, 2022)

Mannahnin said:


> Do folks think it really come down to the pandemic breaking this on-ramp into Standard? Limited play giving people all these cards? Or am I just thinking from my own perspective and how I got in? I do also wonder how much WotC dropping support for the Pro Tour and Grand Prix tournament ecosystem, and all the coverage it used to get, factors in.



@Art Waring covers it well. I know I have burned years talking about this in other forums, but essentially it boils down to Wizards giving up on the competitive integrity of the game.


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## Art Waring (Nov 28, 2022)

Scribe said:


> @Art Waring covers it well. I know I have burned years talking about this in other forums, but essentially it boils down to Wizards giving up on the competitive integrity of the game.



Thank you @Scribe I'm just speaking from personal experience. Other folks may have their own perspective, but based on what LGS store owners have said to me (in the US & the UK) this is what it looks like on the ground floor anyway for the moment.

This isn't the end of anything though, LGS' have plenty of new options to have in their stores, and tables will always be there to play games on as long as we support them. It just might mean that for the next year or so businesses may have to shift their expectations while mtg gets some time to set itself on a new course, whatever that may be.

Final Fantasy has its own ccg now, Flesh and Blood looks to be doing well for now but its a new game (First set released in 2019). Never looked at Metazoo but its out there if that's your thing. The big three will probably always be there as long as they remain in print due to casual players.

New LCG's, tcg's. and ccg's are still being made, along with new ways to play card games (like half board game and half card game types).


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## Zardnaar (Nov 28, 2022)

Think there were 0 bannings in standard from Urzas bannings through to Jace the Mind Sculptor apart from Affinity. 

 Recent years idk how many have been banned. When mythics became tournament staples I could see the writing in the wall.


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## Scribe (Nov 28, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Think there were 0 bannings in standard from Urzas bannings through to Jace the Mind Sculptor apart from Affinity.
> 
> Recent years idk how many have been banned. When mythics became tournament staples I could see the writing in the wall.




I'd have to go back and research, but I think most were either new card types (Vehicle had one I think) or were part of the absolutely dumpstering that was F.I.R.E where they pretty blatantly pushed cards, when they knew KNEW KNEW KNEW what they were doing was undermining the competitive integrity and history of the game.

Some of these cards are even still legal, and are STILL warping the game in non-standard formats like Modern.

My personal 'they dont care' moment, was the printing of Companion as a Standard mechanic.


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## Scribe (Nov 28, 2022)

So, to conclude this tale.

Looks like it didnt go well for Wizards. Currently listed as "Out of Stock" not "Sold Out".









						30th Anniversary Edition | Magic: The Gathering 30th Anniversary Edition store
					

Magic: The Gathering 30th Anniversary Edition store




					30thedition.wizards.com


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## MockingBird (Nov 28, 2022)

I have dabbled in Magic starting with Portal back in 97 then getting 5th edition. I never really went hard core into it. I later picked up the 2015 set and a bunch of Theros cards then fell out of it again. I have no idea what's going on but I find it interesting to watch and read about.


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## Scribe (Nov 28, 2022)

MockingBird said:


> I have dabbled in Magic starting with Portal back in 97 then getting 5th edition. I never really went hard core into it. I later picked up the 2015 set and a bunch of Theros cards then fell out of it again. I have no idea what's going on but I find it interesting to watch and read about.




Almost makes me contemplate creating a new twitter to join in. Seems the product tanked. No queue, up for a short time.


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## MockingBird (Nov 28, 2022)

Scribe said:


> Almost makes me contemplate creating a new twitter to join in. Seems the product tanked. No queue, up for a short time.



Yeah it was up for 30ish mins. 

Every now and then YT recommends magic videos and I got pulled down this rabbit hole 4 days ago.


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## Scribe (Nov 28, 2022)

MockingBird said:


> Yeah it was up for 30ish mins.
> 
> Every now and then YT recommends magic videos and I got pulled down this rabbit hole 4 days ago.




Yeah its been a crazy couple of weeks. I certainly dont regret walking away from the game a few years ago.


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## trappedslider (Nov 28, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Think there were 0 bannings in standard from Urzas bannings through to Jace the Mind Sculptor apart from Affinity.
> 
> Recent years idk how many have been banned. When mythics became tournament staples I could see the writing in the wall.











						Banned and restricted cards/Timeline
					

The DCI announces bans and restrictions of cards for their sanctioned formats if they deemed necessary to do so. In normal cases, these announcements are made on Mondays and take effect within a few days. Previously, such announcements used to be made in a scheduled basis (usually two to three...




					mtg.fandom.com
				




I remember the Jace and Stoneforge bannings.

So, it looks like Flesh and blood isn't sold in my town and that's why I've never heard of it. I don't have a local game store.


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## Zardnaar (Nov 28, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Banned and restricted cards/Timeline
> 
> 
> The DCI announces bans and restrictions of cards for their sanctioned formats if they deemed necessary to do so. In normal cases, these announcements are made on Mondays and take effect within a few days. Previously, such announcements used to be made in a scheduled basis (usually two to three...
> ...




 I quit right before Jace got banned. 

 I didn't like the mythic rarity addition and didn't trust WotC to not print tournament staples in the mythic slots.


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## Henadic Theologian (Nov 28, 2022)

It's just sleazy that WotC went to none MtG creators to promote the hated 30th Anniversary, taking advtange of their ignorance, putting them in humiliating positions, so things like an apology video follows after.

 Who or what is going to save MtG? And is this a glimpse into the future of D&D eventually?


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## Henadic Theologian (Nov 28, 2022)

Scribe said:


> Almost makes me contemplate creating a new twitter to join in. Seems the product tanked. No queue, up for a short time.




 Go for it, Twitter is better then ever, folks are too busy declaring how doomed Twitter is, on Twitter for the likes and increased follower count, to torment each  other.


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## Scribe (Nov 28, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> Go for it, Twitter is better then ever, folks are too busy declaring how doomed Twitter is, on Twitter for the likes and increased follower count, to torment each  other.




Better it could be, but its still a trash heap of the literal worst takes imaginable, and I just cannot be sucked into that hell site again.


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## Zardnaar (Nov 28, 2022)

Using Twitter is kind of like using a blowtorch on your love spuds.


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## MockingBird (Nov 28, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> And is this a glimpse into the future of D&D eventually?



I feel like D&D is in a entirely different ecosystem. Unless they start printing limited runs of 1e/2e era adventures for $999.99. I guess you could look at the alt covers like that in a way. Ive never had fomo for alt covers with exceptions being Tashas and the Lord Soth cover.


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## Scribe (Nov 28, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> Who or what is going to save MtG? And is this a glimpse into the future of D&D eventually?




The people who were stewards the game, have the capacity to do it again. I've said it before but Forsythe and Maro are not fools, they know exactly what they have done.

As to the 'what'?

Ban pretty much every F.I.R.E based card.
Go back and review the ban lists to see what else was hit as a result of those cards, and unban them.
Go back to the Pro Tour format.
Actually take care of the game competitively.
Slow down the releases.
Stop pushing Commander/EDH as a format with every release.
Stop pushing 'Direct to Modern' sets.

Essentially go back to like, 2014-2015 design.


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## trappedslider (Nov 29, 2022)

Scribe said:


> Stop pushing Commander/EDH as a format with every release.



so go back to ignoring the most popular kitchen table casual format?


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## Scribe (Nov 29, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> so go back to ignoring the most popular kitchen table casual format?



Not at all. The format wasn't ignored in the least, do you want me to Google it?

We don't need a commander set, with every single set release, just as we didn't need a direct to modern set with pushed as naughty word cards.


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## Scribe (Nov 29, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> so go back to ignoring the most popular kitchen table casual format?








And of course, due to the rules of EHD, every set is a Commander set.


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## trappedslider (Nov 29, 2022)

Scribe said:


> Not at all. The format wasn't ignored in the least, do you want me to Google it?
> 
> We don't need a commander set, with every single set release, just as we didn't need a direct to modern set with pushed as naughty word cards.



The last actual dedicated commander set was Commander Legends: Battle for _Baldur's Gate Commander, _otherwise it's just been two commander decks with each release other than unfinity which didn't have one.

But it looks like they are going back to 5 precons with the Starter decks in December using allied colors.

So you want them to go back to bland yearly releases? As a commder-only player, I like the two commander decks for each set.  I think I only bought one or two decks previously, they had to reach to make the decks different each year, either hinging on a new mechanic that wasn't supported by other cards outside the decks or low-hanging fruit (tribals and making an op mechanic to boot).

As for MH and MH2, i personally was happy with the reprints since it drove down prices for some singles I need for commander.


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## Zardnaar (Nov 29, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> so go back to ignoring the most popular kitchen table casual format?




If it comes down to commander vs standard? 

 A comparatively few sets vs what has Ben their bread and butter for decades. 

 Could be a case of competing with yourself.


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## Henadic Theologian (Nov 29, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> The last actual dedicated commander set was Commander Legends: Battle for _Baldur's Gate Commander, _otherwise it's just been two commander decks with each release other than unfinity which didn't have one.
> 
> But it looks like they are going back to 5 precons with the Starter decks in December using allied colors.
> 
> ...




 Your forgetting the 4 epic Warhammer 40,000k decks and the fact that New Capenna had 5, no 2 decks.

 So for this year 2 Kamigawa Decks, 5 New Capenna Decks, 4 CLB (Baldur's Gate) Decks, 4 Warhammer 40k Decks, 2 Dominaria United Decks, 2 Brothers War Decks, and now coming 5 Starter Commander Decks and a Entire 700+ card set dedicating to draftable Commander (includes the CLB decks). That hunreds, if not thousands of cards, new and reprints, targeted straight at Commander. That's 24 decks and a full Commander set. (Honorable Mention, Alchemy Horizons: Baldur's Gate CLBs Arena offshoot). 25 if you include the secret lair Commander Deck.

 For comparison last year was the previous high, by a lot, 2 Kaldheim Decks, 5 Strixhaven Decks, 4 AFR Decks, 2 Midnight Hunt Decks, 2 Crimson Vow Decks, for a total of 15 Commander Decks. 

 The year before that was 0 Commander Decks for Theros sadly (I would have loved Theros Commander Decks), 5 I think for Ikoria, 2 Decks for CL1, 0 for Core set, 2 for Zendikar, and 1 Commander Legends Set (Includes the CL1 Commander Decks). 9 Commander Decks and 1 CL set.

 Before that Commander Decks were not tied to Standard Sets or Supplemental set, you'd get 4 to 5 Commander Decks at most (and go before the Commander Format was created and there were no Commander Decks).

 So massive change, this year was roughly 2.5 times as many Commander Decks as 2020, and a little over 4 to 5 times as many decks as 2019 and previous years.

 This isn't a complaint, I prefer Commander Deck Precons to most mtg products, just that I wouldn't understate the volume of Commander Products this year. I didn't even include Commander targeted cards like the Transformer, the Universes Within versions of the Stranger Things SL, etc..., you can find in set boosters.


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## trappedslider (Nov 29, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> If it comes down to commander vs standard?
> 
> A comparatively few sets vs what has Ben their bread and butter for decades.
> 
> Could be a case of competing with yourself.



It's not since something like 70% of the money spent on the game, according to _WotC's_ market research comes from the casual market which includes commander.


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## Henadic Theologian (Nov 29, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> It's not since something like 70% of the money spent on the game, according to _WotC's_ market research comes from the casual market which includes commander.
> __
> 
> MaRo's blogatog he does Q&A




 The post is now gone apparently.


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## trappedslider (Nov 29, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> Your forgetting the 4 epic Warhammer 40,000k decks and the fact that New Capenna had 5, no 2 decks.



I blame my failure to scroll down Commander series


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## trappedslider (Nov 29, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> The post is now gone apparently.



I removed the link to a post but here's the link to his blog Blogatog

EDIT: looks like tumblr doesn't do individual postings unless the account allows it.


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## Zardnaar (Nov 29, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> Your forgetting the 4 epic Warhammer 40,000k decks and the fact that New Capenna had 5, no 2 decks.
> 
> So for this year 2 Kamigawa Decks, 5 New Capenna Decks, 4 CLB (Baldur's Gate) Decks, 4 Warhammer 40k Decks, 2 Dominaria United Decks, 2 Brothers War Decks, and now coming 5 Starter Commander Decks and a Entire 700+ card set dedicating to draftable Commander (includes the CLB decks). That hunreds, if not thousands of cards, new and reprints, targeted straight at Commander. That's 24 decks and a full Commander set. (Honorable Mention, Alchemy Horizons: Baldur's Gate CLBs Arena offshoot). 25 if you include the secret lair Commander Deck.
> 
> ...




 That's a lot.


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## Scribe (Nov 29, 2022)

OK OK, I know I've said I was done, this is it unless we get hard numbers on this travesty, or Wizards says 'yep, we screwed it on this one!'

A Play, in Two Acts.


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## Zardnaar (Nov 29, 2022)

Scribe said:


> OK OK, I know I've said I was done, this is it unless we get hard numbers on this travesty, or Wizards says 'yep, we screwed it on this one!'
> 
> A Play, in Two Acts.
> 
> ...




 Hard to say. The website didn't crash and apparently there was no line.

 Singapore one had apparently 800 for sale sold 9.


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## Scribe (Nov 29, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Hard to say. The website didn't crash and apparently there was no line.
> 
> Singapore one had apparently 800 for sale sold 9.




Yeah, we cannot 'know' but looking at the ratio, the 'excessively online' portion of the community seems to have a view.


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## Zardnaar (Nov 29, 2022)

Scribe said:


> Yeah, we cannot 'know' but looking at the ratio, the 'excessively online' portion of the community seems to have a view.




 Yeah it's somewhere between bad (being objective) and the sky is falling (online).


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## Art Waring (Nov 29, 2022)

Scribe said:


> OK OK, I know I've said I was done, this is it unless we get hard numbers on this travesty, or Wizards says 'yep, we screwed it on this one!'



In commemoration of the last week of events...


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