# Mining Pick?  How much damage to stone?



## Emirikol (Dec 4, 2004)

We currently have a question in our game.  Our dwarf is going to dig through some stone after a vampire who went through a crack.  how much damage does a miners pick do to the stone?

Should he be using his greataxe instead?

jh


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Dec 4, 2004)

Well, I'd make use of three rules.

The first is:



			
				SRD: Carrying said:
			
		

> Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can’t effectively deal damage to certain objects.




I'd say, "Sorry.  Your battle axe just doesn't do any damage to the stone wall.  Care to try something built for the task?"

Second:  Medium Heavy Picks generally do 1d6 damage.

But these heavy picks are actually military picks, and so are suitable for use as weapons.

A miner's pick is not.  I'd increase it to a two-handed, improvised weapon, and increase the damage dice to 1d8.

Third: One inch of stone has 15 hit points, and Hardness 8.  I would not allow Power Attack to be used in this case.  So, every 15 HP of damage he does to the stone wall results in a one inch depression.  You'll need to decide how big the depression is.


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## Emirikol (Dec 4, 2004)

So, is it assumable that the actual area of the hole that is created for these 15 hp's is large enough for a person to move through.  Say, a 5x5 hole as standard.  15 hp's per 1 " thick.

Sound about right?

jh


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Dec 4, 2004)

Well, let's do a quick math check, eh?

Let's say an average miner has a Strength score of 14.  That gives him an average damage of 1d8+3 per 6 seconds.

The chance that he damages the wall at all in any given round is 3 / 8, or ~38%.

When he does manage to damage the wall, he'll roll 10 damage on average, which means he'll get 2 points past the hardness.  His average damage per round, then, 0.75.

Therefore, it will take a standard miner, on average, 20 rounds, or two minutes, to put a 5' by 5' by 1" depression in a wall of rock.

This translates into roughly 4 hours to dig a 5' by 5' by 10' tunnel for a standard miner.  It seems a little fast, to me, but then we're dealing with D&D, so a little bit of unreality seems fine.

Note that if you make the above-mentioned miner slightly weaker (Strength 12 or 13), it takes a full 24 hours of work to dig the same tunnel.

So, how do those numbers sound to you?


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## Silveras (Dec 4, 2004)

The DMG has hit points for sections of wall, per inch of thickness, based on material. The hit points represent a 5 ft x 5 ft area. Once you "kill" such an area, you have opened a breach. 

In that sense, any weapon can eventually do it, though as Patryn of Elvenshae mentioned, you can rule certain weapons as useless.


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## hong (Dec 4, 2004)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> Third: One inch of stone has 15 hit points, and Hardness 8.  I would not allow Power Attack to be used in this case.




Why not?


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## Tatsukun (Dec 4, 2004)

Hong said:
			
		

> Why not?




Some people don't allow power attack to be used unless you are actually rolling attacks. I think that's an odd ruling, but a lot of people do things I think are odd. I got used to it...

 -Tatsu


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## UltimaGabe (Dec 6, 2004)

Then let them roll for it. The worst that could happen is that he'll miss once every 20 times.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Dec 6, 2004)

hong said:
			
		

> Why not?




It doesn't seem right to me.

Power Attack is a *combat* feat that represents (in my head, anyway), ignoring certain openings in your opponent's defense in order to strike only at particularly opportune times (for an increase in damage per successful hit).

So, if you're not making attack rolls, there's no "certain openings" to ignore, and therefore no benefit to be gained.

This has a side-effect of disallowing Power Attacks on CDGs, which follows similar logic, but allowing it on standard attacks against helpless foes.  I find the cinematic aspect of this palatable.

I'm not entirely sold on the issue, however, and YMMV.


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## Doomhawk (Dec 7, 2004)

Patryn, your explanations and analysis seem spot on, except for one thing that I disagree with. IMO, a miner's pick should do slightly more than 1d8 damage, since otherwise, a character without above-average strength would *never* be able to get anywhere with it. I don't mind a low-Str character being moderately ineffective with a pick, but the idea of having an average human (or dwarf, for that matter) swinging away at a wall for an arbitrarily long amount of time and not making any progress at all seems a little odd.
If it were my game, I'd simply rule that a pick does 1 extra point of damage against suitable objects (such as unworked stone). This means that even a normal person could make some progress with it, while a Str 14 character such as the one you used in your example above (a person who is actually very strong) is able to make exceptional progress.


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## Evilhalfling (Dec 7, 2004)

my current PC started as a human miner. (see sig.)
Feats - 
Martial weapon dire pick (d8 from arms & equipment) 
Endurance 
Power Attack. 
My first thought was to get him and adamantium pick - this brings tunneling rates to silly levels levels - 
at 3rd lvl & 16 str = 1d8+4 or 1d8+8 (w power attack) for a rate of 5" per minute, 25' per hour 5x5 tunnel or 8" if power attacking. for 40' of 5x5 tunnel 

I would probalbly suggest power attacking for the short term, but say it is too exausting and impercise for the long haul.  Offering the following enducement 
If you are power attacking you will risk fumbles - while careful mining is less dangerous.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Dec 7, 2004)

Doomhawk said:
			
		

> IMO, a miner's pick should do slightly more than 1d8 damage, since otherwise, a character without above-average strength would *never* be able to get anywhere with it.




Fair enough, and certainly reasonable.

I was, truth be told, more worried about creating a two-handed, 2d6 20/x4 critical weapon than in ensuring weaklings could be effective miners.  

Perhaps a middle-ground, 1d10 20/x4 solution?


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## cmanos (Dec 7, 2004)

Emirikol said:
			
		

> Should he be using his greataxe instead?




A dwarf, of all races, would know that stone would dull the keen edge of the greataxe VERY quickly and it would take a very long time to hone it back to proper sharpness again.

One does not use a greataxe to chop through stone, just asn one does not use a sword to fell a tree.

Granted that may be a little too much realism...


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## WCrawford (Dec 7, 2004)

I might be willing to rule at a mining pick would automatically cause a critical against a stone wall, or allow the mining pick to bypass some or all harness. After all, this is the appropriate tool for the job. in such a case, though, I would reduce the damage to 1d4 or 1d6.


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## cmanos (Dec 7, 2004)

as for using power attack...why not?  You are attacking the wall...

Can you use Power Attack while Sundering someone's weapon???  Then why not a wall??


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## cmanos (Dec 7, 2004)

WCrawford said:
			
		

> I might be willing to rule at a mining pick would automatically cause a critical against a stone wall, or allow the mining pick to bypass some or all harness. After all, this is the appropriate tool for the job. in such a case, though, I would reduce the damage to 1d4 or 1d6.




Not a bad idea...but would there be a difference between worked stone and rough stone?  and what of...say...a stone golem or a warforged?


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## WCrawford (Dec 7, 2004)

cmanos said:
			
		

> Not a bad idea...but would there be a difference between worked stone and rough stone?  and what of...say...a stone golem or a warforged?




I would personally say that the auto crit or hardness reduction/negation would only work against objects to begin with and then make my best judgement at the time for anything else that could pop up.


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## Ally Jackson (Jan 31, 2018)

Patryn your description of power attack would make it so Barbarians couldn't power attack while raging. "You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength." this discription they give of power attack also counters how you see it.

how i see it power attack is more about putting full effort into the swing making obvious tells as you go for an overhead swing and your main focus is putting all the power you can into the hit. so i would argue it is perfectly reasonable to power attack on objects.


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## Tinker (Feb 1, 2018)

I think the main reason for ruling against power attacking a rock face is that isn't how miners work. Steady pounding, with more effect from skilled placement than frenzied force. I do also see the logic that you can't apply an ability that depends on sacrificing your attack bonus if you aren't making an attack roll.

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