# What TV series related to the "Matter of Middle-earth" would you prefer to see?



## Hriston (Oct 16, 2022)

I have long thought the film adaptation of the novels of J.R.R. Tolkien (_The Hobbit _and _The Lord of the Rings_) I would most like to see would be in the form of a series of one-hour episodes, each one covering just one chapter of the book as faithfully as possible.

Another idea I've had for a LotR adjacent TV series was a prequel that covers the events in "The Hunt for the Ring" from _Unfinished Tales. _The main characters would be Gandalf, Aragorn, Gollum, the Ringwraiths, and Saruman. Act One begins with Sauron's interrogation of Gollum and follows his attempts to track Gollum to the Ring, foiled by Aragorn's eventual capture and imprisonment of Gollum in Mirkwood. In Act Two, Sauron's spies search for the home of the "halflings" but are thwarted by the Dúnedain and the treachery of Saruman, so Sauron launches a dual assault on Mirkwood and Osgiliath. Denethor, Faramir, and Boromir could feature prominenlty here. In Act Three, the Nazgȗl cross the Anduin, searching for the Ring, the Shire, and the escaped Gollum who is also pursued by Legolas and elves from Mirkwood. Gollum winds up hiding in Moria, and the Nazgȗl, unsuccessful, ride to Isengard to parley with Saruman, where it's revealed that Gandalf only just escaped before Saruman was about to turn him over to them. Gandalf is pursued by orcs and wolves of Saruman who tells the Ringwraiths where the Shire is. Riding north, they encounter the "squint-eyed southerner" who informs them that _Baggins_ can be found in Hobbiton. They cross Sarn Ford resisted by Rangers and enter the Shire. The Witch-king, in an attempt to keep the hobbits from escaping to the east, goes to the Barrow-downs to rouse the Barrow-wights against them. Meanwhile, Boromir has the dream about the Sword that was broken and sets out for Rivendell, and Gandalf tames Shadowfax, heads north, and fights the Nazgȗl at Weathertop.

For a sequel to the LotR, I think a series about the voyage of the Ring-bearers into the West would be interesting. The main characters would be Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond, Frodo, and Bilbo. I always imagined Círdan being on the boat too although he seems to have remained in Middle-earth into the Fourth Age. Maybe he sailed back and forth. Episodes would have an "island of the week" format, resembling the Odyssey or the voyages of Sinbad (or Star Trek). The voyagers would first come to the Western Isles: Tol Himling, Tol Fuin, and Tol Morwen. Tol Fuin in particular could be a dangerous place still full of giant spiders and other horrors. Around the middle of the series, the summit of the Meneltarma could be visited, from which a glimpse of Tol Eressëa might be seen. Later episodes would have the travelers journeying through the Shadowy Seas, falling prey to various enchantments as they come to the Enchanted Isles and the Twilit Isles, and eventually to Tol Eressëa and the West.

Anyway, that's enough from me for now. How about you? What Tolkien derived fiction would you like to see on TV?


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## payn (Oct 16, 2022)

Tom Bombadil


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## Parmandur (Oct 16, 2022)

I'd like a sort of anthology series something like American Horror Story, with a Season each for Beren & Luthien, Turin Turambar, the Fall of Gondolin, and the voyage of Earendil at least.


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## Hriston (Oct 16, 2022)

payn said:


> Tom Bombadil



A show with Bombadil as the protagonist? I’m imagining it centering around his domestic scene with Goldberry with cameos from notable local personages like Gandalf, Butterbur, and prominent hobbits. The primary antagonists would be Old Man Willow and the Barrow-wights plotting against Tom incessantly, and the action would all take place in the vicinity of the Old Forest and the Barrow Downs. I suppose Tom’s development as a character would involve him being challenged to operate outside his comfort zone.

ETA: What time period do you imagine the show takes place? Before or after the LotR?


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## reelo (Oct 16, 2022)

I would kill for a cinematic adaption of the "Children of Húrin". But on the other hand, that is a deeply tragic story, bleak AF, and without happy ending, so any adaption would probably butcher it to the point of unrecognizability, so I'll just cherish the book(s) and be content. If RoP has taught me anything it's that it's better to NOT have an adaption than to have a bad one.


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## Hriston (Oct 16, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> I'd like a sort of anthology series something like American Horror Story, with a Season each for Beren & Luthien, Turin Turambar, the Fall of Gondolin, and the voyage of Earendil at least.



I think each one of those stories could be its own show, but yeah, at least a season apiece could be devoted to them in a larger “Silmarillion” show. I also think an approach could work where the stories are more woven together.


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## Dausuul (Oct 16, 2022)

I would love to have a TV adaptation of the fall of Numenor and the War of the Last Alliance.

_* watches Rings of Power *_

...a _good_ TV adaptation of the fall of Numenor and the War of the Last Alliance.


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## Parmandur (Oct 16, 2022)

Hriston said:


> I think each one of those stories could be its own show, but yeah, at least a season apiece could be devoted to them in a larger “Silmarillion” show. I also think an approach could work where the stories are more woven together.



I don't think anynof those stories could support 50 hours of television without serious stretching: 8-12 hours would suffice.


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## Parmandur (Oct 16, 2022)

Dausuul said:


> I would love to have a TV adaptation of the fall of Numenor and the War of the Last Alliance.
> 
> _* watches Rings of Power *_
> 
> ...a _good_ TV adaptation of the fall of Numenor and the War of the Last Alliance.



Why settle for merely "good" when excellence is already in existence...?


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Oct 16, 2022)

What you mention.

Plus: The Lord of the Rings: The Long Defeat; the history of the rise and fall of Arnor, war with the Witch King of Angmar, etc.


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## Twiggly the Gnome (Oct 16, 2022)

Hriston said:


> A show with Bombadil as the protagonist? I’m imagining it centering around his domestic scene with Goldberry with cameos from notable local personages like Gandalf, Butterbur, and prominent hobbits. The primary antagonists would be Old Man Willow and the Barrow-wights plotting against Tom incessantly, and the action would all take place in the vicinity of the Old Forest and the Barrow Downs. I suppose Tom’s development as a character would involve him being challenged to operate outside his comfort zone.



Sounds familiar


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## Maxperson (Oct 16, 2022)

Hriston said:


> I have long thought the film adaptation of the novels of J.R.R. Tolkien (_The Hobbit _and _The Lord of the Rings_) I would most like to see would be in the form of a series of one-hour episodes, each one covering just one chapter of the book as faithfully as possible.
> 
> Another idea I've had for a LotR adjacent TV series was a prequel that covers the events in "The Hunt for the Ring" from _Unfinished Tales. _The main characters would be Gandalf, Aragorn, Gollum, the Ringwraiths, and Saruman. Act One begins with Sauron's interrogation of Gollum and follows his attempts to track Gollum to the Ring, foiled by Aragorn's eventual capture and imprisonment of Gollum in Mirkwood. In Act Two, Sauron's spies search for the home of the "halflings" but are thwarted by the Dúnedain and the treachery of Saruman, so Sauron launches a dual assault on Mirkwood and Osgiliath. Denethor, Faramir, and Boromir could feature prominenlty here. In Act Three, the Nazgȗl cross the Anduin, searching for the Ring, the Shire, and the escaped Gollum who is also pursued by Legolas and elves from Mirkwood. Gollum winds up hiding in Moria, and the Nazgȗl, unsuccessful, ride to Isengard to parley with Saruman, where it's revealed that Gandalf only just escaped before Saruman was about to turn him over to them. Gandalf is pursued by orcs and wolves of Saruman who tells the Ringwraiths where the Shire is. Riding north, they encounter the "squint-eyed southerner" who informs them that _Baggins_ can be found in Hobbiton. They cross Sarn Ford resisted by Rangers and enter the Shire. The Witch-king, in an attempt to keep the hobbits from escaping to the east, goes to the Barrow-downs to rouse the Barrow-wights against them. Meanwhile, Boromir has the dream about the Sword that was broken and sets out for Rivendell, and Gandalf tames Shadowfax, heads north, and fights the Nazgȗl at Weathertop.
> 
> ...



I want to see the first age from the awakening of the elves through say the Battle of Sudden Flame and duel between Fingolfin and Morgoth.


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## Parmandur (Oct 16, 2022)

Maxperson said:


> I want to see the first age from the awakening of the elves through say the Battle of Sudden Flame and duel between Fingolfin and Morgoth.



I think thst would work great as animation.


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## Maxperson (Oct 16, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> I think thst would work great as animation.



Get whoever did Star Wars Rebels to do it.


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## Hriston (Oct 16, 2022)

reelo said:


> I would kill for a cinematic adaption of the "Children of Húrin". But on the other hand, that is a deeply tragic story, bleak AF, and without happy ending, so any adaption would probably butcher it to the point of unrecognizability, so I'll just cherish the book(s) and be content. If RoP has taught me anything it's that it's better to NOT have an adaption than to have a bad one.



Yeah, the problem with TV and Hollywood adaptations of popular fiction is the writers and producers think they can do a better job of telling the author's story than was originally done. It always seems like a cynical attempt to cash in on the popularity of the original work. Otherwise, if the original work is seen as having value other than popularity, why not adapt it faithfully?


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## Hriston (Oct 16, 2022)

Dausuul said:


> I would love to have a TV adaptation of the fall of Numenor and the War of the Last Alliance.
> 
> _* watches Rings of Power *_
> 
> ...a _good_ TV adaptation of the fall of Numenor and the War of the Last Alliance.



And I would love to have a good TV adaptation of the forging of the Rings of Power and the War of Sauron and the Elves.


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## Hriston (Oct 16, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> I don't think anynof those stories could support 50 hours of television without serious stretching: 8-12 hours would suffice.





Parmandur said:


> Why settle for merely "good" when excellence is already in existence...?



So do you support "stretching" or not?


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## Parmandur (Oct 16, 2022)

Hriston said:


> So do you support "stretching" or not?



This story supports stretching intelligently: the three major Silmirillion syores I don't see working that way.


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## Hriston (Oct 16, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> This story supports stretching intelligently: the three major Silmirillion syores I don't see working that way.



Why not?

I don't have a copy of the LotR at hand, but I'd imagine not more than a few sentences from the appendices actually made it into this show, and they were made into an entire season of television. Why is Tolkien's writing in the Silmarillion stories less worthy of embellishment?


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## Hriston (Oct 17, 2022)

Twiggly the Gnome said:


> Sounds familiar
> 
> View attachment 264142



Hey, David doesn't happen to wear yellow boots, does he?

In fact, for Bombadil I was thinking either Saturday morning cartoon or family sitcom: "Goldberry, I'm home!"


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## trappedslider (Oct 17, 2022)

A show in which the estate points out what can and can't be used in various media with fan reaction.


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## Parmandur (Oct 17, 2022)

Hriston said:


> Why not?
> 
> I don't have a copy of the LotR at hand, but I'd imagine not more than a few sentences from the appendices actually made it into this show, and they were made into an entire season of television. Why is Tolkien's writing in the Silmarillion stories less worthy of embellishment?



It's precisely because so much of this is original that it can be spread out more easily: to follow those more detailed stories makes that more difficult. Rings of Power only needs to keep a few bullet points in place, whereas Beren and Luthien has a complex story to tell, bit big enough that a movie might be too small, but specific enough thst five seasons would be too much.

See also, The Hobbit. A story that has been adapted comfortably in 90 minutes stretched to nearly ten hours.

Put another way, Rings of Power is working largely because it is essentially an original story that goes into what happens off-screen in Tolkien, an adaptation of a detailed short story stretched out causes problems.


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## Parmandur (Oct 17, 2022)

One alternative take: the big headliner stories in the Silmirillion take place in about a 60 year timespan: a little timeline compression, have Beren, Luthien, Turin, Tuor and company all running parallel and intersecting.


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## Parmandur (Oct 17, 2022)

OK, looking st the timeline again, starting a show with The Dagor Bragollach in 455 First Age, and ending with Earendil's journey to Valinor in 542 First Age and time compressing all the events in between and eluding a bit to create more interconnections between the threads over the seasons would work well.


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## Lidgar (Oct 17, 2022)

Angband, all done in ASCII characters.

More seriously, a series around the first age and the eventual defeat of Morgoth would be my pick.


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## Twiggly the Gnome (Oct 17, 2022)

Hriston said:


> In fact, for Bombadil I was thinking either Saturday morning cartoon or family sitcom: "Goldberry, I'm home!"



Children's cartoon would seem appropriate, since he was inspired by a toy.


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## billd91 (Oct 17, 2022)

Hriston said:


> Yeah, the problem with TV and Hollywood adaptations of popular fiction is the writers and producers think they can do a better job of telling the author's story than was originally done. It always seems like a cynical attempt to cash in on the popularity of the original work. Otherwise, if the original work is seen as having value other than popularity, why not adapt it faithfully?



Mostly because a lot of TV and Hollywood screenwriters actually *CAN* do a better job of adapting a print author's story for the screen. Not everyone can, but I seriously doubt Tolkien would have done a particularly good job of writing a screenplay or teleplay.


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## reelo (Oct 17, 2022)

billd91 said:


> Mostly because a lot of TV and Hollywood screenwriters actually *CAN* do a better job of adapting a print author's story for the screen. Not everyone can, but I seriously doubt Tolkien would have done a particularly good job of writing a screenplay or teleplay.




That might be true. But a story like "The Children of Húrin" is, in its written form, sublime. But it is an epic tragedy in the Greek sense. The story of a family —father, mother, son, and daughters— that are utterly crushed by Morgoth.
And while the relatively small focus and limited cast of characters (Childhood of Túrin, Túrin in Doriath, Túrin among the outlaws, Túrin in Nargothrond, Túrin in Brethil, Death of Túrin) would lend itself _perfectly_ for a trilogy of movies or a series, I can't help but think that whatever screenwriter —or worse: producer— would feel compelled to contrieve a happy ending for one or more of the characters, not understanding that it would negate the entire premise of the tale.
Maybe a graphic novel would be better...


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## Parmandur (Oct 17, 2022)

reelo said:


> That might be true. But a story like "The Children of Húrin" is, in its written form, sublime. But it is an epic tragedy in the Greek sense. The story of a family —father, mother, son, and daughters— that are utterly crushed by Morgoth.
> And while the relatively small focus and limited cast of characters (Childhood of Túrin, Túrin in Doriath, Túrin among the outlaws, Túrin in Nargothrond, Túrin in Brethil, Death of Túrin) would lend itself _perfectly_ for a trilogy of movies or a series, I can't help but think that whatever screenwriter —or worse: producer— would feel compelled to contrieve a happy ending for one or more of the characters, not understanding that it would negate the entire premise of the tale.
> Maybe a graphic novel would be better...



I mean, we are currently watching a show that features 6 different cultures all headed for absolute catastrophe, 2 of whom already experienced it (the Southlanders and the Harfoots). Amazon, at least seems ready to set up absolute tragedy already.


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## reelo (Oct 18, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> I mean, we are currently watching a show that features 6 different cultures all headed for absolute catastrophe, 2 of whom already experienced it (the Southlanders and the Harfoots). Amazon, at least seems ready to set up absolute tragedy already.



Have you read the Children of Húrin?


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## Paul Farquhar (Oct 18, 2022)

Hriston said:


> A show with Bombadil as the protagonist? I’m imagining it centering around his domestic scene with Goldberry with cameos from notable local personages like Gandalf, Butterbur, and prominent hobbits. The primary antagonists would be Old Man Willow and the Barrow-wights plotting against Tom incessantly, and the action would all take place in the vicinity of the Old Forest and the Barrow Downs. I suppose Tom’s development as a character would involve him being challenged to operate outside his comfort zone.
> 
> ETA: What time period do you imagine the show takes place? Before or after the LotR?



Sounds like a good basis for a sitcom. I'd watch it.


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## MarkB (Oct 18, 2022)

Hriston said:


> A show with Bombadil as the protagonist? I’m imagining it centering around his domestic scene with Goldberry with cameos from notable local personages like Gandalf, Butterbur, and prominent hobbits. The primary antagonists would be Old Man Willow and the Barrow-wights plotting against Tom incessantly, and the action would all take place in the vicinity of the Old Forest and the Barrow Downs. I suppose Tom’s development as a character would involve him being challenged to operate outside his comfort zone.
> 
> ETA: What time period do you imagine the show takes place? Before or after the LotR?



I'm imagining Tom Bombadil as the ultimate unreliable narrator, being a framing device as he recounts numerous tales from his past, but constantly getting details muddled, trailing off to talk about the latest forest gossip, or switching mid-story to telling another tale and never actually getting back on-track.

Goldberry would salvage the most important details by filling in the gaps based upon past tellings, or nudging him back on-track.


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## John R Davis (Oct 18, 2022)

Bombadil-Vision


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## Cadence (Oct 18, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> I'd like a sort of anthology series something like American Horror Story, with a Season each for Beren & Luthien, Turin Turambar, the Fall of Gondolin, and the voyage of Earendil at least.



I would go for this if I could trust the producers...

So maybe just the books.

---

I just had a vision of a short where Legalos and Gimli head to the west like the appendices say might have happened.  But they get shipwrecked on Tol Morwen and Gimli has some choice words.


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## Dausuul (Oct 18, 2022)

billd91 said:


> Mostly because a lot of TV and Hollywood screenwriters actually *CAN* do a better job of adapting a print author's story for the screen. Not everyone can, but I seriously doubt Tolkien would have done a particularly good job of writing a screenplay or teleplay.



It is certainly true that you wouldn't want Tolkien writing TV scripts. There are a few cases of adaptations where the writer of the books also has experience working in TV ("Game of Thrones" and "Sandman" are the two that come to mind offhand), but they are the exception to the rule.

However, there is a deeper point here: The shape of the story, and the motivations and interactions of the characters, were crafted with a purpose by someone who knew what they were doing and did it well (if they hadn't done it well, nobody would be trying to make an adaptation). If you lose that, you lose what makes the whole thing work. Adapting the story means you have to grasp what the author was doing and why, to see not just surface details but the underlying vision, and hold onto that vision--the author's vision, not yours--even as you change a lot of details to fit the new medium.

It is not easy, and it's especially hard if you can't talk to the original author. I think Peter Jackson did about as good a job as could be done without Tolkien there to explain himself, and even so, there was quite a lot lost in translation (which is probably why Christopher Tolkien was famously unhappy with the movies).



Parmandur said:


> I mean, we are currently watching a show that features 6 different cultures all headed for absolute catastrophe, 2 of whom already experienced it (the Southlanders and the Harfoots). Amazon, at least seems ready to set up absolute tragedy already.



_Cultures_ suffering catastrophe is easy. Everyone likes an apocalypse. _Characters_ suffering a tragic ending is very different. George R. R. Martin is notorious for character deaths, but the Silmarillion makes Martin look like Mr. Rogers. If Ned Stark read it, he'd be glad he got off so easy.

And Turin's story is exceptionally terrible even for the Silmarillion. Everything good in his life turns to disaster, everyone he loves dies (many by Turin's own hand), and he finishes up by committing suicide.


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## Parmandur (Oct 18, 2022)

reelo said:


> Have you read the Children of Húrin?



Absolutely, it's right there on my shelf. It's profound and exquisite. Thst has nothing to do with the point that the Rings of Power, actively being made now, is all about tragedy and fall.


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## Parmandur (Oct 18, 2022)

Dausuul said:


> It is certainly true that you wouldn't want Tolkien writing TV scripts. There are a few cases of adaptations where the writer of the books also has experience working in TV ("Game of Thrones" and "Sandman" are the two that come to mind offhand), but they are the exception to the rule.
> 
> However, there is a deeper point here: The shape of the story, and the motivations and interactions of the characters, were crafted with a purpose by someone who knew what they were doing and did it well (if they hadn't done it well, nobody would be trying to make an adaptation). If you lose that, you lose what makes the whole thing work. Adapting the story means you have to grasp what the author was doing and why, to see not just surface details but the underlying vision, and hold onto that vision--the author's vision, not yours--even as you change a lot of details to fit the new medium.
> 
> ...



Yes, amd we see in rings of Power all the characters being set up for massive personal tragedy from the word go.


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## Ralif Redhammer (Oct 18, 2022)

I second the idea. A series of short self-contained stories, without the pressure to spread each out for multiple seasons, would be great. I'd love to see the retaking of Moria and its subsequent fall. Heck, bring back Ken Stott as Balin. The war of the Valar against Morgoth. 



Parmandur said:


> I'd like a sort of anthology series something like American Horror Story, with a Season each for Beren & Luthien, Turin Turambar, the Fall of Gondolin, and the voyage of Earendil at least.


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## Mercurius (Oct 18, 2022)

I have two answers, depending upon who is making the series, and how they approach and understand Tolkien's work.

If someone took a "Peter Jackson approach" - that is, not inserting themselves into it too much, but trying to adapt Tolkien and _his _ideas as faithfully as possible - then I'd love to see a full-blown Silmarillion series, or rather the Quenta Simarillion, aka the First Age. Maybe something like this:

*Option One: Silmarillion Series*
*First season:* Prologue depicts the Ainulindale, and the major events of the Years of the Lamps and Trees...would be hard to do, but with the right director could be really cool. The season proper begins with a supposedly-repentant Melkor being released by the Valar, the forging of the Silmarils by Feanor, the conflict among the elves, then Melkor stealing the Silmarils and Ungoliant killing the Two Trees. The season focuses on events in Aman, and culminates with Feanor leading elves to Beleriand, and then being killed by Balrogs. Ends with Fingolfin leaving Aman for Middle-earth. 

*Second season:* Prologue depicts creation of sun and moon, awakening of Men, and establishment of the kingdoms of the Eldar in Beleriand. The main narrative starts sometime later, with Morgoth under siege in Angband for several centuries. Depicts arrival ("first contact") of men, and dwarves, and their alliance vs. Morgoth. Dagor Bragollach. Ends with death of Fingolfin. 

*Third season:* Focus on men: Hurin and Huor, and then Beren and Luthien, and culminates in the fifth battle (Nirnaeth Arnoediad).

*Fourth season: *Focus on Turin and Tuor, fall of Nargothrond and then culminates in the fall of Gondolin. 

*Fifth season: *Later years of the First Age. Earendil and the War of Wrath. Destruction of Angband. Ends with Morgoth being cast into the Void.

Or something like that! It could possibly be done in three 10-episode seasons, too. Oh, and _no hobbits!_

*Option Two: Other Possibilities*
Barring someone like Jackson, either another Amazon-esque series or studio who is less concerned with or capable of a faithful adaptation, a few ideas that come to mind:

*Angmar: *A series depicting the war between Arnor and Angmar and the Witch-king. 

*Dragons: *A series focusing on the fight against dragons by the dwarves and men, in particular. The dragon Scatha could be central. Set around the same time as the above (1500-2000 TA), so could be combined.

*Middle-earth: The Fourth Age.* One of the great literary losses of the last century is that Tolkien didn't complete (barely started, really), his follow-up to the _Lord of the Rings: The New Shadow. _Evidently he didn't write more than 13 pages because it was just too depressing. Anyhow, I'd fast forward from LotR by at least a couple hundred years, maybe longer. Make sure all the canonical characters are dead or have passed over to the West, and then create new characters, with some new evil arising - perhaps a cult of Morgoth, or maybe another Balrog turns up, or one of the blue wizards comes back and is set on domination. Elves are dwindling and diminishing, dwarves becoming more insular. Etc. 

*The Blue Wizards: *An entirely new story about the blue wizards in the East...there is so little written about them, but they remain a fun mystery, and at least the show-runners would have greater freedom to explore different stories and ideas. Maybe one becomes evil, and the series focuses on their fight against each other.

*One final note:* No Tom Bombadil. While I felt his (and Goldberry's) lack in the LotR films, I have since come to feel that it was probably for the best. Tom Bombadil is inherently an enigma - whether he is a Maia, Iluvatar itself, Tolkien inserting himself, or just an odd-ball, he is probably best left unexplained and un-depicted (that said, I would have liked to see Robin Williams in the role).


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## Ryujin (Oct 18, 2022)

What about a series based on whatever the Rangers of the North were doing all that time, in the Third Age, while no one was looking?


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## Mercurius (Oct 18, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> What about a series based on whatever the Rangers of the North were doing all that time, in the Third Age, while no one was looking?



That could be fit in with my Angmar idea, though I think the rangers didn't really emerge until after that (when the last king died). But I've always been intrigued about that period of a thousandish years before LotR - which is when the rangers would have been rangering.


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## MarkB (Oct 18, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> What about a series based on whatever the Rangers of the North were doing all that time, in the Third Age, while no one was looking?



The Young Aragorn Adventures?


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## Ryujin (Oct 18, 2022)

MarkB said:


> The Young Aragorn Adventures?



They could get there, eventually, but why not Arathorn? Or back to when they started their roaming? Somewhere in between?


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## trappedslider (Oct 19, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> A show in which the estate points out what can and can't be used in various media with fan reaction.



This would be more of a single episode like an hour-long documentary


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## Hriston (Oct 19, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> It's precisely because so much of this is original that it can be spread out more easily: to follow those more detailed stories makes that more difficult. Rings of Power only needs to keep a few bullet points in place, whereas Beren and Luthien has a complex story to tell, bit big enough that a movie might be too small, but specific enough thst five seasons would be too much.
> 
> See also, The Hobbit. A story that has been adapted comfortably in 90 minutes stretched to nearly ten hours.
> 
> Put another way, Rings of Power is working largely because it is essentially an original story that goes into what happens off-screen in Tolkien, an adaptation of a detailed short story stretched out causes problems.



We agree that Jackson's Hobbit suffers from too much of the wrong sort of embellishment, but I think, in an episodic format, The Hobbit could be much longer, with a slower pace, and capture the feeling of the original book much better. Same with the LotR.

RoP has a similar issue, IMO. It's a retelling of a story which takes place over thousands of years in the appendices and for which Tolkien wrote enough detail to outline the major plot points. The writers of the show have gutted much of that framework and filled it in with details that aren’t needed for the original story: things like the whole Southlands subplot, the Stranger/Nori subplot, the idea that anyone was ever "hunting" for Sauron, and the idea that mithril would have anything to do with slowing the fading of the elves. Jackson’s LotR has some insertions of this type, mostly pulled from the appendices, but is more noted for what was cut rather than what was added. 

Of course the story of Beren and Luthien is written out in greater detail than the material in the appendices from which the show draws, but that just means there would be less detail to add. I don’t think having that level of detail would prevent the introduction of subplots or other embellishments to expand the existing story. Drawing some of those details from other parts of the Silmarillion would, of course, add grist to the mill.


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## Paul Farquhar (Oct 19, 2022)

Hriston said:


> We agree that Jackson's Hobbit suffers from too much of the wrong sort of embellishment, but I think, in an episodic format, The Hobbit could be much longer, with a slower pace, and capture the feeling of the original book much better. Same with the LotR.



As in: BBC radio dramatizations.


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## Parmandur (Oct 19, 2022)

Hriston said:


> We agree that Jackson's Hobbit suffers from too much of the wrong sort of embellishment, but I think, in an episodic format, The Hobbit could be much longer, with a slower pace, and capture the feeling of the original book much better. Same with the LotR.
> 
> RoP has a similar issue, IMO. It's a retelling of a story which takes place over thousands of years in the appendices and for which Tolkien wrote enough detail to outline the major plot points. The writers of the show have gutted much of that framework and filled it in with details that aren’t needed for the original story: things like the whole Southlands subplot, the Stranger/Nori subplot, the idea that anyone was ever "hunting" for Sauron, and the idea that mithril would have anything to do with slowing the fading of the elves. Jackson’s LotR has some insertions of this type, mostly pulled from the appendices, but is more noted for what was cut rather than what was added.
> 
> Of course the story of Beren and Luthien is written out in greater detail than the material in the appendices from which the show draws, but that just means there would be less detail to add. I don’t think having that level of detail would prevent the introduction of subplots or other embellishments to expand the existing story. Drawing some of those details from other parts of the Silmarillion would, of course, add grist to the mill.



Theybare telling their own story, yes, but thematically it is Tolkienian and every element, thus far, is on point for the integrity of the show as an artistic unit.

I could see maybe one Season for the Hobbit, but that is still a stretch. One benefit of a drawn out version of the Hobbit or Lord of the Rings, they could actually include all the songs. One of the most important elements of the books.


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## Ibrandul (Oct 19, 2022)

MarkB said:


> The Young Aragorn Adventures?



Per a recent story in _Vanity Fair_, this was in fact one of the multiple series that Netflix pitched when they, Amazon, and HBO were all competing for the rights. And the estate hated Netflix's ideas so much that they left tens of millions of dollars on the table to strike a deal instead with Amazon, which had been significantly outbid by Netflix.

(It's not definitively clear that the estate hated the "young Aragorn" idea as such—Netflix may have bungled the pitch rather than the concept—but the article does imply that this is the case.)


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## Parmandur (Oct 19, 2022)

jeremypowell said:


> Per a recent story in _Vanity Fair_, this was in fact one of the multiple series that Netflix pitched when they, Amazon, and HBO were all competing for the rights. And the estate hated Netflix's ideas so much that they left tens of millions of dollars on the table to strike a deal instead with Amazon, which had been significantly outbid by Netflix.
> 
> (It's not definitively clear that the estate hated the "young Aragorn" idea as such—Netflix may have bungled the pitch rather than the concept—but the article does imply that this is the case.)



There may have been other factors than money and the creative element that would give Amazon a keg up from the Estate perspective: Amazon is the world's largest bookseller, and the Tolkien Estate's business is selling books. I can imagine Amazon had a cross promotional campaign on offer that probably means more money in the long run for the Estate.


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## Hriston (Oct 19, 2022)

Twiggly the Gnome said:


> Children's cartoon would seem appropriate, since he was inspired by a toy.



Frame story: Bilbo sitting with a group of hobbit children telling them stories from the "Adventures of Tom Bombadil".


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## Hriston (Oct 19, 2022)

billd91 said:


> Mostly because a lot of TV and Hollywood screenwriters actually *CAN* do a better job of adapting a print author's story for the screen. Not everyone can, but I seriously doubt Tolkien would have done a particularly good job of writing a screenplay or teleplay.



And that's a reason not to adapt his work faithfully? I mean, I get the value of a screen adaptation written with artistry and professionalism, but I think there's a difference between that and one where the writers are putting their fingerprints all over the finished product, which is a lot of what I see happening.


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## Ryujin (Oct 19, 2022)

Hriston said:


> And that's a reason not to adapt his work faithfully? I mean, I get the value of a screen adaptation written with artistry and professionalism, but I think there's a difference between that and one where the writers are putting their fingerprints all over the finished product, which is a lot of what I see happening.



At least they didn't turn it into a sarcastic comedy (cf. "Starship Troopers"). It's still a serious fantasy piece and has the general tone of a Tolkien story, if not slavishly following the letter of one. It's also pretty darned good. Sure, there are the odd bits that make you mutter WTF* but, taken as a whole, it's an enjoyable programme.

* I honestly can't think of many recent works that haven't made me do this, at least once.


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## Hriston (Oct 19, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> Theybare telling their own story, yes, but thematically it is Tolkienian and every element, thus far, is on point for the integrity of the show as an artistic unit.



But they're supposed to be telling Tolkien's story. I mean, the title of the show is "The Lord of the Rings".



Parmandur said:


> I could see maybe one Season for the Hobbit, but that is still a stretch. One benefit of a drawn out version of the Hobbit or Lord of the Rings, they could actually include all the songs. One of the most important elements of the books.



I'm imagining two seasons for The Hobbit, nine episodes apiece. I wouldn't want to see it drawn out any longer than that, and those might be half hour episodes rather than a full hour.


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## Ryujin (Oct 19, 2022)

Hriston said:


> But they're supposed to be telling Tolkien's story. I mean, the title of the show is "The Lord of the Rings".
> 
> 
> I'm imagining two seasons for The Hobbit, eight episodes apiece. I wouldn't want to see it drawn out any longer than that, and those might be half hour episodes rather than a full hour.



I'd be happy to just see the Topher Grace cut of the movies.


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## Parmandur (Oct 19, 2022)

Hriston said:


> And that's a reason not to adapt his work faithfully? I mean, I get the value of a screen adaptation written with artistry and professionalism, but I think there's a difference between that and one where the writers are putting their fingerprints all over the finished product, which is a lot of what I see happening.



It's not an adaptation, and fidelity to chronology is of minor importance when Tolkien kept changing that sort of thing on his own. It's not set in stone. The creators making their own thing means it stands or falls on their own merit. In this case the merit is considerably great on it own terms.


Hriston said:


> But they're supposed to be telling Tolkien's story. I mean, the title of the show is "The Lord of the Rings".



No, the disclaimer in the credits make it clear this isn't Tolkien's story, it's the showrunners. Theybare inspired by Tolkien, and they are remarkably faithful to his themes and worldview, which took me by surprise because that is where Jackson failed compeltely.


Hriston said:


> I'm imagining two seasons for The Hobbit, nine episodes apiece. I wouldn't want to see it drawn out any longer than that, and those might be half hour episodes rather than a full hour.



Ooof, I do not think that would work if done with fastidious attention to canon details, at all, and would be a bad framework to get creative.


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## Ibrandul (Oct 19, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> It's not an adaptation, and fidelity to chronology is of minor importance when Tolkien kept changing that sort of thing on his own. It's not set in stone. The creators making their own thing means it stands or falls on their own merit. In this case the merit is considerably great on it own terms.
> 
> No, the disclaimer in the credits make it clear this isn't Tolkien's story, it's the showrunners. Theybare inspired by Tolkien, and they are remarkably faithful to his themes and worldview, which took me by surprise because that is where Jackson failed compeltely.
> 
> Ooof, I do not think that would work if done with fastidious attention to canon details, at all, and would be a bad framework to get creative.



I agree with all of this—except the word “completely”—and I believe JRRT would have as well. The “Tolkien Professor” has done a good job, I think, of reminding his listeners that JRRT himself, when giving notes on an adaptation far, far worse than this one, was more concerned with preserving the spirit of the work than with preserving details not essential to that spirit.

On the other hand, I feel the series we have been given is not always perfectly true to the spirit of the work. But neither was Jackson’s LotR, which is nonetheless a masterpiece of a kind. And both are very close to the spirit, I think, and diverge only occasionally. A good case can be made that RoP diverges (so far) less often.


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## Parmandur (Oct 20, 2022)

jeremypowell said:


> I agree with all of this—except the word “completely”—and I believe JRRT would have as well. The “Tolkien Professor” has done a good job, I think, of reminding his listeners that JRRT himself, when giving notes on an adaptation far, far worse than this one, was more concerned with preserving the spirit of the work than with preserving details not essential to that spirit.
> 
> On the other hand, I feel the series we have been given is not always perfectly true to the spirit of the work. But neither was Jackson’s LotR, which is nonetheless a masterpiece of a kind. And both are very close to the spirit, I think, and diverge only occasionally. A good case can be made that RoP diverges (so far) less often.



Well, an exact match netween different artists is arguably impossible, even Christopher Tolkien had to make hard and questionable choices with the Silmirillion and he liberally dedicated his life to understanding the sport of his father's work.

However, I cannot think offhand of any major Tolkienian themes yhst the showrunners failed to touch on in this season, they didn't really have any non-Tolkienian themes (it's very interesting to listen to them talk about their original elements in the show, because they are always able to cite the existing hook in Tolkien they are working from), and all were executed with aplomb. I didn't come into this year thinking that Amazon would be putting out a major productin centered around the ethics and anthropology of Augustinian Platonism, but here we are, that's the world we live in now.


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## Ibrandul (Oct 20, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> Augustinian Platonism



I agree that RoP is more serious about Tolkienian themes than Jackson was (though Jackson's filmmaking is superior, at least so far). But I would argue, for example, that the gore and horror in episode 6 of RoP is sensationalistic in a way that I find contrary to Tolkien's spirit. It's most definitely contrary to the spirit of arguments explicitly made by both Plato (or the Platonic Socrates, at least) and Augustine (in the circus episode of the _Confessions_, for example). But I confess that I've become increasingly conservative in my dotage regarding horrifically violent filmed entertainment, so perhaps I'm projecting onto JRRT a spirit he didn't really embrace regarding that.


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## Parmandur (Oct 20, 2022)

jeremypowell said:


> I agree that RoP is more serious about Tolkienian themes than Jackson was (though Jackson's filmmaking is superior, at least so far). But I would argue, for example, that the gore and horror in episode 6 of RoP is sensationalistic in a way that I find contrary to Tolkien's spirit. It's most definitely contrary to the spirit of arguments explicitly made by both Plato (or the Platonic Socrates, at least) and Augustine (in the circus episode of the _Confessions_, for example). But I confess that I've become increasingly conservative in my dotage regarding horrifically violent filmed entertainment, so perhaps I'm projecting onto JRRT a spirit he didn't really embrace regarding that.



I mean, even the Hobbit has a lot of over the top violence and horror, let alone Lord of the Rings or the Silmarillion. No shade in saying you might have a selective memory here, I managed to forget the sex scenes in Game of Thrones after reading it: actually, I normally do, and that gets me in hot water with book recommendations on occasion.


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## Argyle King (Oct 20, 2022)

Guy Fieri, as a Hobbit, with a cooking show covering the various meals popular in the Shire.


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## Ibrandul (Oct 20, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> I mean, even the Hobbit has a lot of over the top violence and horror, let alone Lord of the Rings or the Silmarillion. No shade in saying you might have a selective memory here, I managed to forget the sex scenes in Game of Thrones after reading it: actually, I normally do, and that gets me in hot water with book recommendations on occasion.



I rewatched Jackson's LotR recently, and I saw nothing remotely as extreme as some of the scenes in episode 6 of RoP. I know more than one person who can handle Jackson's LotR but could not handle episode 6 of RoP. Perhaps it's a difference of degree, not of kind, but there is a real difference.

Whether Jackson's Hobbit contains something comparable, I couldn't say; I saw only the first of those films and detested it.

And again, I do like RoP—and no, I don't think all entertainment must be appropriate for all viewers. The over-the-top violence in ep. 6 is a blemish, in my view, but not an essentially damaging one.

If, however, you mean the _books_ of The Hobbit, LotR, and The Silmarillion have over-the-top violence and horror comparable to what is found in RoP ep. 6, we'll have to agree to disagree. There's a difference in kind between the way those books depict violence and horrific situations, on the one hand, and the way it's depicted onscreen, on the other.


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## Parmandur (Oct 20, 2022)

jeremypowell said:


> I rewatched Jackson's LotR recently, and I saw nothing remotely as extreme as some of the scenes in episode 6 of RoP. I know more than one person who can handle Jackson's LotR but could not handle episode 6 of RoP. Perhaps it's a difference of degree, not of kind, but there is a real difference.
> 
> Whether Jackson's Hobbit contains something comparable, I couldn't say; I saw only the first of those films and detested it.
> 
> ...



A difference in medium, but the books have some of the most horrifying and violent situations of anything I have ever read.

Episode 6 got intense, bit it wasn't worse than a lot of the violence in Two Towers or Return of the King. If anything, I would say that perhaps it takes the violence more seriously than the Jaxkfilms do, which is appropriately Tolkienien.


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## Henadic Theologian (Oct 20, 2022)

None, it's story has been told, and told well. The Hobbit and LotR was one man's story, one man's mythology, it was never meant to be a shared world setting. Yes Middle Earth is popular, but that alone is not enough to make it good franchise material, it's time to stop milking a setting not suited to that role.


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## Hriston (Oct 21, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> At least they didn't turn it into a sarcastic comedy (cf. "Starship Troopers"). It's still a serious fantasy piece and has the general tone of a Tolkien story, if not slavishly following the letter of one. It's also pretty darned good. Sure, there are the odd bits that make you mutter WTF* but, taken as a whole, it's an enjoyable programme.
> 
> * I honestly can't think of many recent works that haven't made me do this, at least once.



Sure, it could have been far worse, and I agree it's not too bad. My issues with the show don't have much to do with it not "slavishly" following Tolkien's plot. It was more the style of storytelling that left me feeling like it had all been a waste of time.


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## Parmandur (Oct 21, 2022)

Hriston said:


> Sure, it could have been far worse, and I agree it's not too bad. My issues with the show don't have much to do with it not "slavishly" following Tolkien's plot. It was more the style of storytelling that left me feeling like it had all been a waste of time.



I mean, it's a pretty standard TV show format, kind of staid and conservative in 2022, even. A particularly tight example of a "mystery box" that didn't take it too far.


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## Hriston (Oct 21, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I'd be happy to just see the Topher Grace cut of the movies.



I heard about that a few years ago and wanted to see it. I imagine it could be pretty good.


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## reelo (Oct 21, 2022)

Hriston said:


> I heard about that a few years ago and wanted to see it. I imagine it could be pretty good.



I've recently come across the the "maple films" cut of the Hobbit, which is 4h21m long in total, but with an "intermission" break in the middle, so as to be 2 movies. 
It's wonderful, and the only way I can stomach the hobbit on film.


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## Dausuul (Oct 22, 2022)

Playing around with how to do the Silmarillion as a TV show...

One idea would be to do it as a frame story, with Earendil telling it to the Valar in the Ring of Doom. This would address the problem where the end of the story is literally a _deus ex machina_; the frame sets it up from the very beginning.

This would also make it possible to finesse the chronology of events. Earendil could tell several stories in parallel (Beren and Luthien, the Children of Hurin, the deeds of Feanor's sons, etc.), in response to questions from the Valar; thus the show could maintain a mostly-stable cast, despite telling stories separated by centuries. Occasionally, Earendil might ask a question of his own, which would allow the Valar or Valinorean Elves to provide flashbacks to before the Darkening of Valinor.

Earendil would stagger his stories; say he's got three running at any given point, each season he wraps up one and starts another. Beren and Luthien would be the one story that ran the entire length of the series. It would conclude with their deaths* along with the retrieval of a Silmaril, which Earendil would then bring out and present to the Valar as he makes his plea for them to intervene. The actual War of Wrath would be just a brief montage at the end--the conclusion would be Earendil being given the Silmaril to carry in Vingilot across the sky. (And maybe a scene of Galadriel pointing out the star to a youthful Elrond, which would nicely tie the Silmarillion to both the Peter Jackson movies and the Rings of Power.)

*Their first deaths, obviously. Trying to work in their resurrection and second deaths would make the story unnecessarily confusing without really adding anything IMO.


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## Hriston (Oct 23, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> It's not an adaptation, and fidelity to chronology is of minor importance when Tolkien kept changing that sort of thing on his own. It's not set in stone. The creators making their own thing means it stands or falls on their own merit. In this case the merit is considerably great on it own terms.



This seems like a matter of semantics. I don't know how you're using the word _adaptation, _but there's clearly an original text (LotR) to which the creators of the show purchased the rights for the purpose of making their product, which they entitled "The Lord of the Rings". Making alterations to that text necessary for use in a different medium is what makes it an adaptation, and use of that title means the show doesn't stand or fail on its own. Its success is buoyed by the recognition and reputation the title brings.

Also, I don't know why you're zeroing in on chronology. My comments to which you're replying were speaking generally about all kinds of changes (not just chronological) made in adaptations for TV and movies that seem like they were made to suit the whims of the writers and producers of the adaptations rather than to further the vision of the original author. I was told that Tolkien not being a skilled screenwriter himself is a good reason for an adaptation of his work to incorporate such changes, and I don't see it that way. There's an element of custodianship in adapting an author's work and a skill in realizing the author's vision in a new medium.



Parmandur said:


> No, the disclaimer in the credits make it clear this isn't Tolkien's story, it's the showrunners. Theybare inspired by Tolkien, and they are remarkably faithful to his themes and worldview, which took me by surprise because that is where Jackson failed compeltely.



I haven't read the disclaimer. What does it say?



Parmandur said:


> Ooof, I do not think that would work if done with fastidious attention to canon details, at all, and would be a bad framework to get creative.



Why not? The original story does just fine with those details. I was imagining a version that tells the same story that's in the book. What do you mean by "get creative"?


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## Hriston (Oct 23, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> I mean, it's a pretty standard TV show format, kind of staid and conservative in 2022, even. A particularly tight example of a "mystery box" that didn't take it too far.



I don't watch a lot of TV, so I don't know what trends have emerged in shows of that type, but after watching this show, I'm pretty sure I prefer mystery and ambiguity to come out of the events of the story being told instead of, as I believe was done in this show, from the writers using storytelling techniques to misdirect their audience.


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## Parmandur (Oct 23, 2022)

Hriston said:


> This seems like a matter of semantics. I don't know how you're using the word _adaptation, _but there's clearly an original text (LotR) to which the creators of the show purchased the rights for the purpose of making their product, which they entitled "The Lord of the Rings". Making alterations to that text necessary for use in a different medium is what makes it an adaptation, and use of that title means the show doesn't stand or fail on its own. Its success is buoyed by the recognition and reputation the title brings.
> 
> Also, I don't know why you're zeroing in on chronology. My comments to which you're replying were speaking generally about all kinds of changes (not just chronological) made in adaptations for TV and movies that seem like they were made to suit the whims of the writers and producers of the adaptations rather than to further the vision of the original author. I was told that Tolkien not being a skilled screenwriter himself is a good reason for an adaptation of his work to incorporate such changes, and I don't see it that way. There's an element of custodianship in adapting an author's work and a skill in realizing the author's vision in a new medium.



An adaption suggests usage of existing material. Rings of Power uses a base outline, and lampshades that most of it is original.


Hriston said:


> I haven't read the disclaimer. What does it say?



It says that the narrative is“inspired by, though not contained in, the original source material." I.e., not an adaptation per se. I think thr creators have been very upfront about what the show is.


Hriston said:


> Why not? The original story does just fine with those details. I was imagining a version that tells the same story that's in the book. What do you mean by "get creative"?



The Hobbit is a story that had been successfully adapted in 90 minutes (by Rankin Bass). I think that could be expanded to 3 hours to get all angles of the story in one film. More than three hours requires padding. The Hobbit's page count is mostly scenery description and running commentary from the Narrator: the plot is very short in fact. To stretch the story to 8, let alone 16 hours would require massive invention, which I donsee working as well as Rings of Power because the story isn't big enough to contain it (unlike the critical outline of the Second Age events). The Lord of the Rings, however, I think would work in Five Seasons, because it is a monstrously larger story.


Hriston said:


> I don't watch a lot of TV, so I don't know what trends have emerged in shows of that type, but after watching this show, I'm pretty sure I prefer mystery and ambiguity to come out of the events of the story being told instead of, as I believe was done in this show, from the writers using storytelling techniques to misdirect their audience.



Yeah, that's all pretty standard TV show stuff at this point, basically to be expected. Honestly a lot less of that here than normal.


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## MarkB (Oct 23, 2022)

Hriston said:


> I don't watch a lot of TV, so I don't know what trends have emerged in shows of that type, but after watching this show, I'm pretty sure I prefer mystery and ambiguity to come out of the events of the story being told instead of, as I believe was done in this show, from the writers using storytelling techniques to misdirect their audience.



I think the "take it too far" element is from shows like Lost, The X-Files or the revamped Battlestar Galactica, where mysterious happenings are thrown out at the audience along with the (either implied or outright stated) challenge for them to figure out the answer to the mystery - only for it to turn out, when answers start appearing seasons later, that the writers themselves either never bothered to figure out the answers to their own questions in the first place, or went ahead and changed them either because they wanted to take a different direction or because they'd forgotten the original questions they'd posed.

In Rings of Power, at least, they set up the ambiguities while themselves having a clear answer in mind, and they deliver that answer within the course of the same season.


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## Zaukrie (Oct 23, 2022)

Original stories not from the books. Buyt that that would stop complaining..... But I want new stories.


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## Parmandur (Oct 23, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> Original stories not from the books. Buyt that that would stop complaining..... But I want new stories.



Someday, Tolkien's corpus will be out of copyright. Then things will get wild.


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## Hriston (Oct 29, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> An adaption suggests usage of existing material. Rings of Power uses a base outline, and lampshades that most of it is original.



Yes, here is the _existing material_ that was _adapted_ from The Tale of Years:

1200​Sauron endeavours to seduce the Eldar. ... the smiths of Eregion are won over. ...​​_c. _1500​The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They begin the forging of the Rings of Power.​​_c. _1590​The Three Rings are completed in Eregion.​
The introduction of original material into an adaptation (especially into the adaptation of that first sentence which encompasses the majority of the season) doesn't mean that existing source material hasn't been adapted. Season one of "The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power" is an adaptation and a re-telling of this story, written by J.R.R. Tolkien, as it says on the tin.



Parmandur said:


> It says that the narrative is“inspired by, though not contained in, the original source material." I.e., not an adaptation per se. I think thr creators have been very upfront about what the show is.



I've now had a look at the disclaimer. It flashes by so quickly in the end credits that it's not easy to get it to pause at just the right moment so that it can be read. I'd say that hardly puts it "up front". It also doesn't say what you've purported. Here's the full text:

This production contains dialogue, characters, and places that were inspired by, though not contained in, the original source material.​
So not the whole narrative, but certain individual lines of dialogue, characters like Nori and Adar, and places like Tirharad, were not present in the source material written by Tolkien but are the inventions of the writers of the show as distinct from certain lines of dialogue, characters like Galadriel, Elrond, and Sauron, and places like Lindon, Númenor, Eregion, Moria, and Mordor that are present in the source material that has been adapted which have also been used. That's what it says -- that not everything in the show is contained in the source material -- that there has been some invention which is part of the act of adaptation.



Parmandur said:


> The Hobbit is a story that had been successfully adapted in 90 minutes (by Rankin Bass). I think that could be expanded to 3 hours to get all angles of the story in one film. More than three hours requires padding. The Hobbit's page count is mostly scenery description and running commentary from the Narrator: the plot is very short in fact. To stretch the story to 8, let alone 16 hours would require massive invention, which I donsee working as well as Rings of Power because the story isn't big enough to contain it (unlike the critical outline of the Second Age events). The Lord of the Rings, however, I think would work in Five Seasons, because it is a monstrously larger story.



The Rankin/Bass Hobbit is mostly beautifully done, but I think its pacing is entirely too fast for episodic television. It hits most of the major plot points but leaves out many details, including the entirety of Chapter 7: Queer Lodgings (where Bilbo and Company stay at the house of Beorn) and, more importantly, the events surrounding Bilbo's finding and delivering the Arkenstone to Bard. The show I'm imagining would include all of those omitted details, told at a leisurely pace with lots of room for attention to scenery and atmosphere. Elements such as the Battle of Greenfields and Gollum's childhood memories would be given full treatment. By page count alone, The Hobbit is around a quarter the length of the LotR, so I don't think two seasons is much of a stretch if LotR could be turned into five. (I'd argue for six.)



Parmandur said:


> Yeah, that's all pretty standard TV show stuff at this point, basically to be expected. Honestly a lot less of that here than normal.



Well. I think it's an approach that results in a story where events occur that make no sense. I mean, why does Gandalf land in a crater that looks like the Eye of Sauron? That's just weird.


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## Cadence (Oct 29, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> Someday, Tolkien's corpus will be out of copyright. Then things will get wild.



The copyright will expire, but they'll still hold the TM on a bunch of things which feel like they'll make some things awkward to navigate.   








						FAQ
					

Quite often, we are contacted by fans who wonder:  What is Copyright? Copyright is a legal concept that applies to original work giving the creator of the work exclusive rights to control its...



					www.middleearth.com


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## trappedslider (Oct 29, 2022)

Hriston said:


> Here's the full text:
> 
> This production contains dialogue, characters, and places that were inspired by, though not contained in, the original source material.​
> So not the whole narrative, but certain individual lines of dialogue, characters like Nori and Adar, and places like Tirharad, were not present in the source material written by Tolkien but are the inventions of the writers of the show as distinct from certain lines of dialogue, characters like Galadriel, Elrond, and Sauron, and places like Lindon, Númenor, Eregion, Moria, and Mordor that are present in the source material that has been adapted which have also been used. That's what it says -- that not everything in the show is contained in the source material -- that there has been some invention which is part of the act of adaptation.



Well when the source material is a paragraph followed by a timeline any dialogue is going to be an invention lol


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## Hriston (Oct 29, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Well when the source material is a paragraph followed by a timeline any dialogue is going to be an invention lol



Not necessarily. In this case, the source material is the entirety of the LotR, from which some dialogue was cribbed such as when the Stranger says, "always follow you nose."


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## Hriston (Oct 29, 2022)

MarkB said:


> I think the "take it too far" element is from shows like Lost, The X-Files or the revamped Battlestar Galactica, where mysterious happenings are thrown out at the audience along with the (either implied or outright stated) challenge for them to figure out the answer to the mystery - only for it to turn out, when answers start appearing seasons later, that the writers themselves either never bothered to figure out the answers to their own questions in the first place, or went ahead and changed them either because they wanted to take a different direction or because they'd forgotten the original questions they'd posed.
> 
> In Rings of Power, at least, they set up the ambiguities while themselves having a clear answer in mind, and they deliver that answer within the course of the same season.



No answer was delivered as to why Gandalf landed in a crater that looked like the Eye of Sauron or why both Waldreg and the Dweller seemed to believe the fall of his meteorite was a sign of Sauron's return.


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## MarkB (Oct 29, 2022)

Hriston said:


> No answer was delivered as to why Gandalf landed in a crater that looked like the Eye of Sauron or why both Waldreg and the Dweller seemed to believe the fall of his meteorite was a sign of Sauron's return.



Well, the second part is the whole "Gandalf Stormcrow" causation-reversal thing. Gandalf turning up doesn't cause Sauron to be on the move - he turns up _because_ Sauron is on the move.


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## Hriston (Oct 29, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Well, the second part is the whole "Gandalf Stormcrow" causation-reversal thing. Gandalf turning up doesn't cause Sauron to be on the move - he turns up _because_ Sauron is on the move.



So we're supposed to believe that Sauron knew that Gandalf would show up in a meteorite and told his followers to watch for it? I think that strains credulity.


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## MarkB (Oct 29, 2022)

Hriston said:


> So we're supposed to believe that Sauron knew that Gandalf would show up in a meteorite and told his followers to watch for it? I think that strains credulity.



Did I say that?


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## Hriston (Oct 29, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Did I say that?



No, but what other explanation could there be for the events depicted in the show?


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## MarkB (Oct 29, 2022)

Hriston said:


> No, but what other explanation could there be for the events depicted in the show?



Actual foresight and prophecy? We know that exists in the setting. The Witch King's "no man may kill me" thing, for instance.


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## Hriston (Oct 29, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Actual foresight and prophecy? We know that exists in the setting. The Witch King's "no man may kill me" thing, for instance.



Sure, I was imagining such foresight on the part of Sauron because it's his followers that we see expressing that belief, but it could come from elsewhere. In the case of the prophecy about the Witch-king, we know it originates from the foresight of Glorfindel, but there is no explanation given on the show for the origin of the belief among Sauron's followers that the meteor signifies his return. It seems to exist only to create confusion about the identity of the Stranger.


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## MarkB (Oct 29, 2022)

Hriston said:


> Sure, I was imagining such foresight on the part of Sauron because it's his followers that we see expressing that belief, but it could come from elsewhere. In the case of the prophecy about the Witch-king, we know it originates from the foresight of Glorfindel, but there is no explanation given on the show for the origin of the belief among Sauron's followers that the meteor signifies his return.



Well, the trio in white seemed to be pretty magically powerful themselves, so I wouldn't put it past them or other members of the organisation to have access to divination. As for Walgren, he didn't seem like the sharpest tool in the shed - he'd probably think anything impressive and unexplained was an omen.


Hriston said:


> It seems to exist only to create confusion about the identity of the Stranger.



Narratively, the Witch King prophecy existed only to give Eowyn a moment of awesome.


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## Hriston (Oct 30, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Well, the trio in white seemed to be pretty magically powerful themselves, so I wouldn't put it past them or other members of the organisation to have access to divination. As for Walgren, he didn't seem like the sharpest tool in the shed - he'd probably think anything impressive and unexplained was an omen.



Divination that leads them to Gandalf when they're looking for Sauron? And for Waldreg to come to the same incorrect conclusion independently is too much of a coincidence for me to swallow.



MarkB said:


> Narratively, the Witch King prophecy existed only to give Eowyn a moment of awesome.



Yes, it is awesome because Tolkien was a great storyteller, but the prophecy also has a causal reason for existing within the fiction. RoP provides no such reason for the existence of whatever information was available to Waldreg and the three travellers about the meteorite and which led the travellers to misidentify the Stranger.


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## MarkB (Oct 30, 2022)

Hriston said:


> Divination that leads them to Gandalf when they're looking for Sauron?



Misinterpreting prophecy is a classic of fantasy fiction.


Hriston said:


> And for Waldreg to come to the same incorrect conclusion independently is too much of a coincidence for me to swallow.



Waldreg's an idiot, and he was desperate for Sauron to return. It was a conclusion he was primed to jump to.


Hriston said:


> Yes, it is awesome because Tolkien was a great storyteller, but the prophecy also has a causal reason for existing within the fiction. RoP provides no such reason for the existence of whatever information was available to Waldreg and the three travellers about the meteorite and which led the travellers to misidentify the Stranger.



The main text of LotR doesn't give the origin of the Witch King prophecy. I never knew it had anything to do with Glorfindel until you mentioned it a few posts ago. That never made it any less valid to me.


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## Hriston (Oct 30, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Misinterpreting prophecy is a classic of fantasy fiction.



You don't need access to magical powers of divination to misinterpret a prophecy.



MarkB said:


> Waldreg's an idiot, and he was desperate for Sauron to return. It was a conclusion he was primed to jump to.



Right, and so are the witches idiots, and so is any viewer, like me, who accepted the show's misdirection as honest storytelling. At that point, I'd say the writing is more akin to trolling.



MarkB said:


> The main text of LotR doesn't give the origin of the Witch King prophecy. I never knew it had anything to do with Glorfindel until you mentioned it a few posts ago. That never made it any less valid to me.



Tolkien left it to the reader to interpret the prophecy for themselves and had it play out in a surprising way. The show, on the other hand, had Gandalf land in a crater that looked like the Eye of Sauron when seen in an overhead shot that was repeatedly emphasized in the recaps and had sinister sounding whispering echoing voices in the soundtrack every time Gandalf performed magic, breaking Largo's ankle to his own advantage at one point, reminiscent of Sauron's whisperings that could be heard at many points in Jackson's LotR and Hobbit movies. The possible existence of a prophecy as stated by an unreliable Waldreg and acted upon by clearly powerful wraithlike beings who should have known what they were doing was just corroboration of what the show was already telling the viewer was true in the fiction. When it was revealed in the final episode that Sauron was Halbrand and not the Stranger, it felt like I'd been lied to. That actually made the show less enjoyable for me.


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## MarkB (Oct 30, 2022)

Hriston said:


> Tolkien left it to the reader to interpret the prophecy for themselves and had it play out in a surprising way. The show, on the other hand, had Gandalf land in a crater that looked like the Eye of Sauron when seen in an overhead shot that was repeatedly emphasized in the recaps and had sinister sounding whispering echoing voices in the soundtrack every time Gandalf performed magic, breaking Largo's ankle to his own advantage at one point, reminiscent of Sauron's whisperings that could be heard at many points in Jackson's LotR and Hobbit movies. The possible existence of a prophecy as stated by an unreliable Waldreg and acted upon by clearly powerful wraithlike beings who should have known what they were doing was just corroboration of what the show was already telling the viewer was true in the fiction. When it was revealed in the final episode that Sauron was Halbrand and not the Stranger, it felt like I'd been lied to. That actually made the show less enjoyable for me.



Can't help you there. I've had that experience with other shows, but didn't get it with this one. It was obvious from the start that they were deliberately presenting multiple possible Sauron candidates and making it ambiguous as to which - if any - he was. I just accepted that as part of the premise, and kept an open mind.


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## Hriston (Oct 30, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Can't help you there. I've had that experience with other shows, but didn't get it with this one. It was obvious from the start that they were deliberately presenting multiple possible Sauron candidates and making it ambiguous as to which - if any - he was. I just accepted that as part of the premise, and kept an open mind.



I didn't see anything like the Eye of Sauron with Halbrand. In fact, from his introduction in episode two, the signals were more of the "look foul and feel fair" nature of an Aragorn-like figure, whereas Sauron in the mid-Second Age is supposed to look fair. I'm curious how you got around the Eye of Sauron crater. I mean, it doesn't make a lot of sense either way, but it seemed like such a direct message from the filmmakers.

ETA: The only way I can rationalize the crater looking like the Eye of Sauron is that it's some kind of bizarre coincidence, which is pretty unsatisfying. Another option is that we as audience members aren't supposed to care or notice and that it was intended to operate subliminally, but the inclusion of the image in episode recaps would seem to go against that interpretation. It seems like the show is punishing those who actually engage with its content.


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## trappedslider (Oct 30, 2022)

Don't we already have a thread about Rings of power?


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## trappedslider (Oct 30, 2022)

Ohh a hobbit cooking show would be awesome


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## MarkB (Oct 30, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Ohh a hobbit cooking show would be awesome



How do you prefer them? Slow-roasted or deep-fried?


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## trappedslider (Oct 30, 2022)

MarkB said:


> How do you prefer them? Slow-roasted or deep-fried?



haha syntax joke


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## MarkB (Oct 30, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> haha syntax joke



Yeah sorry, went for the easy one. But it did get me picturing a cooking show hosted by those three trolls from The Hobbit, competing to come up with the best recipes to cook hobbit, dwarf or elf.


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## trappedslider (Oct 30, 2022)

MarkB said:


> Yeah sorry, went for the easy one. But it did get me picturing a cooking show hosted by those three trolls from The Hobbit, competing to come up with the best recipes to cook hobbit, dwarf or elf.



I'd watch that too, 
"If you can't get all natural hobbit meat,store-bought is fine"


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## Ryujin (Oct 30, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> I'd watch that too,
> "If you can't get all natural hobbit meat,store-bought is fine"



After all, looks like meat is back on the menu boys.

Oh, wait. That's goblin.


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## trappedslider (Oct 30, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> After all, looks like meat is back on the menu boys.
> 
> Oh, wait. That's goblin.



An orc said, which implies that at least one orc knows what a menu is.


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## Ryujin (Oct 30, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> An orc said, which implies that at least one orc knows what a menu is.



Minas Ithil is a full blown city, so there's bound to be the odd little sidewalk bistro about.


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## trappedslider (Oct 30, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Minas Ithil is a full blown city, so there's bound to be the odd little sidewalk bistro about.



I bet you need reservations sicne one does not walk in


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## MarkB (Oct 30, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> I bet you need reservations sicne one does not walk in



I'd definitely have some reservations.


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## MarkB (Oct 30, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Minas Ithil is a full blown city, so there's bound to be the odd little sidewalk bistro about.



"At Chez Shelab we serve the finest web-aged orc, infused with our special venom jus."


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## Parmandur (Oct 31, 2022)

Cadence said:


> The copyright will expire, but they'll still hold the TM on a bunch of things which feel like they'll make some things awkward to navigate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Love will find a way.


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## Cadence (Oct 31, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> Love will find a way.



So, we get Beren and Luthien done in a truly epic fashion?  Excellent!


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## Parmandur (Oct 31, 2022)

Hriston said:


> I didn't see anything like the Eye of Sauron with Halbrand. In fact, from his introduction in episode two, the signals were more of the "look foul and feel fair" nature of an Aragorn-like figure, whereas Sauron in the mid-Second Age is supposed to look fair. I'm curious how you got around the Eye of Sauron crater. I mean, it doesn't make a lot of sense either way, but it seemed like such a direct message from the filmmakers.
> 
> ETA: The only way I can rationalize the crater looking like the Eye of Sauron is that it's some kind of bizarre coincidence, which is pretty unsatisfying. Another option is that we as audience members aren't supposed to care or notice and that it was intended to operate subliminally, but the inclusion of the image in episode recaps would seem to go against that interpretation. It seems like the show is punishing those who actually engage with its content.



It's a crater. And misdirection. But we'll done, since it made either interpretation poss8ble. Also, The Stranger didn't break Largo's goot, necessarily: that was suggested by the editing, but that was probavly again misdirection taking advantage of the  "correlation is causation, right?" quirk in human perception.

Halbrand us introduced with Obe Eye in his initial shot, and his musical theme is a mirror of Sauron's, so the twist is musically broadcast blatantly. Also, like the second thing he does after betraying a raft full of people to a sea serpent is demand that Galadriel "bind yourself to me!" in the storm. I thought he wod be the Witch King of Angmar, but he was clearly toxic throughout.


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## Parmandur (Oct 31, 2022)

Cadence said:


> So, we get Beren and Luthien done in a truly epic fashion?  Excellent!



Somebody, somewhere, will eventually be able to use public domain to make an epic Beren and Luthien extension. Probably many people.


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## Hriston (Nov 3, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> It's a crater. And misdirection. But we'll done, since it made either interpretation poss8ble.



Well no, craters that look pretty much exactly like the Eye of Sauron don't just happen by accident. The show presented an image that was deliberately crafted to strongly resemble the Eye and emphasized that image repeatedly. What meaning the show was trying to convey with that image is hard to say because it ended up being meaningless nonsense when the Stranger was revealed to be Gandalf. There's absolutely no reason for it to have happened. The only possible interpretation is when Gandalf falls from the sky in meteorites, it makes craters that look like the Eye of Sauron. 



Parmandur said:


> Also, The Stranger didn't break Largo's goot, necessarily: that was suggested by the editing, but that was probavly again misdirection taking advantage of the  "correlation is causation, right?" quirk in human perception.



Editing is a form of communication. The show points to the correlation, connecting the breaking of the stick with the breaking of Largo's foot. What's the point of communicating that connection to the audience if it's not meant to be received and accepted as true in the story. Gandalf also broke a tree limb, almost killing a child. The interpretation of these events is that in this version of Gandalf, he's a bungler. 



Parmandur said:


> Halbrand us introduced with Obe Eye in his initial shot, and his musical theme is a mirror of Sauron's, so the twist is musically broadcast blatantly. Also, like the second thing he does after betraying a raft full of people to a sea serpent is demand that Galadriel "bind yourself to me!" in the storm. I thought he wod be the Witch King of Angmar, but he was clearly toxic throughout.



I don't understand. Halbrand had only one eye? Did he grow his other eye before his next close up?

One episode, I think it was 8, opened with a close up of Galadriel's eye blinking open. Did that mean she might be Sauron too? No, it just means she regained consciousness. 

I didn't pick up on the theme. I'll have to pay more attention to the music if I watch it again. I've already watched most of the episodes more than once. 

He didn't seem toxic to me. He heroically risked his life to save her from drowning, and who would want to be eaten by a sea serpent?


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## trappedslider (Nov 3, 2022)

Hriston said:


> Well no, craters that look pretty much exactly like the Eye of Sauron don't just happen by accident. The show presented an image that was deliberately crafted to strongly resemble the Eye and emphasized that image repeatedly. What meaning the show was trying to convey with that image is hard to say because it ended up being meaningless nonsense when the Stranger was revealed to be Gandalf. There's absolutely no reason for it to have happened. The only possible interpretation is when Gandalf falls from the sky in meteorites, it makes craters that look like the Eye of Sauron.
> 
> 
> Editing is a form of communication. The show points to the correlation, connecting the breaking of the stick with the breaking of Largo's foot. What's the point of communicating that connection to the audience if it's not meant to be received and accepted as true in the story. Gandalf also broke a tree limb, almost killing a child. The interpretation of these events is that in this version of Gandalf, he's a bungler.
> ...











						Rings of Power -- all opinions and spoilers welcome thread.
					

This is a thread to discuss about the show, welcoming, in a nice and polite manner as befit any Internet board, opinions about the show, from any point of views, ranging from how it was if you discovered Middle Earth by watching it or how the show differed from Tolkien canon and how it is...




					www.enworld.org


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## Ryujin (Nov 3, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> I bet you need reservations sicne one does not walk in



OK, can I pitch a comedy set in Minas Morgul, based in a restaurant? We can call it, "Two Orcs, a Ghoul, and a Pizza Place." I'm sure Ryan Reynolds would be up for it.


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## Hriston (Nov 3, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Rings of Power -- all opinions and spoilers welcome thread.
> 
> 
> This is a thread to discuss about the show, welcoming, in a nice and polite manner as befit any Internet board, opinions about the show, from any point of views, ranging from how it was if you discovered Middle Earth by watching it or how the show differed from Tolkien canon and how it is...
> ...



This suggestion seems disingenuous considering I've posted in that thread quite recently.


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## Cadence (Nov 3, 2022)

Hriston said:


> This suggestion seems disingenuous considering I've posted in that thread quite recently.



I read it as "That thread feels like it was exactly made for what you seem to be trying to discuss... this one doesn't so much."

It would have been clearer if they had included the quote you were responding to as well.


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## Maxperson (Nov 3, 2022)

jeremypowell said:


> Whether Jackson's Hobbit contains something comparable, I couldn't say; I saw only the first of those films and detested it.



The second was much worse and the third the best of the three.


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## Maxperson (Nov 3, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> Episode 6 got intense, bit it wasn't worse than a lot of the violence in Two Towers or Return of the King. If anything, I would say that perhaps it takes the violence more seriously than the Jaxkfilms do, which is appropriately Tolkienien.



Was that the episode where the pyroclastic flow hit the town and should have turned it into Pompei, but bad writing caused everyone in town to have less difficulty with it than a sunburn at the beach?


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## Hriston (Nov 3, 2022)

Cadence said:


> I read it as "That thread feels like it was exactly made for what you seem to be trying to discuss... this one doesn't so much."
> 
> It would have been clearer if they had included the quote you were responding to as well.



Sure, that would have been nice, but who made @trappedslider the on-topic police?


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## Ryujin (Nov 3, 2022)

Hriston said:


> Sure, that would have been nice, but who made @trappedslider the on-topic police?



Well there does seem to be a fair bit of this going on outside of a thread that seemed to be expressly created for that sort of negative commenting on Rings of Power. Do we really need three threads so people can complain about it?


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## Hriston (Nov 3, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Well there does seem to be a fair bit of this going on outside of a thread that seemed to be expressly created for that sort of negative commenting on Rings of Power. Do we really need three threads so people can complain about it?



A fair bit of what exactly? That people are expressing their preferences about the recent Tolkien show in a thread about their preferences regarding Tolkien shows in general doesn't seem particularly off topic to me, and I started this thread! You don't need to ghettoize opinions with which you don't agree.


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## trappedslider (Nov 3, 2022)

Hriston said:


> A fair bit of what exactly? That people are expressing their preferences about the recent Tolkien show in a thread about their preferences regarding Tolkien shows in general doesn't seem particularly off topic to me, and I started this thread! You don't need to ghettoize opinions with which you don't agree.



Sorry for thinking this was a general topic (middle earth) thread and not just another thread about the show.


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## Hriston (Nov 3, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Sorry for thinking this was a general topic (middle earth) thread and not just another thread about the show.



Another disingenuous reply. Why am I not surprised?


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## trappedslider (Nov 4, 2022)

Hriston said:


> Another disingenuous reply. Why am I not surprised?



So the title of YOUR thread is "What TV series related to the "Matter of Middle-earth" would you prefer to see? "
However, the last few pages had a number of posts about Rings of Power which has had its own thread 2 of them in fact since the show launched. I know thread drift is a thing but having a thread turn into a copy of another thread..at that point just ask the mods to merge them.


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## Hriston (Nov 4, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> So the title of YOUR thread is "What TV series related to the "Matter of Middle-earth" would you prefer to see? "
> However, the last few pages had a number of posts about Rings of Power which has had its own thread 2 of them in fact since the show launched. I know thread drift is a thing but having a thread turn into a copy of another thread..at that point just ask the mods to merge them.



Why do you care what other people are having a conversation about? Again, it's not your job to police the thread. If you think there's something wrong with this thread that requires moderation, go to a mod and see if they're receptive to your request. Otherwise, you're just threadcrapping and trying to control what other people are talking about.


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## Cadence (Nov 4, 2022)

So, uhm...   "Anyway, [...]  How about you? What Tolkien derived fiction would you like to see on TV?"

---

I kind of have the urge to find out that the lands to the far south and far east weren't completely turned and subjugated thralls, and that legends that they were were falsehoods spread by Morgoth and later Sauron.  It actually only looked that way because the countries to the far south and far east kept driving out the ones who did fall to Morgoth and Sauron in the only directions available (towards the North and West).


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 4, 2022)

Hriston said:


> Another disingenuous reply. Why am I not surprised?



*Mod Note:*

Posts like this are really not helpful in eliciting good discussions nor maintaining civility.  Be better going forward.


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## Hriston (Nov 4, 2022)

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> What you mention.
> 
> Plus: The Lord of the Rings: The Long Defeat; the history of the rise and fall of Arnor, war with the Witch King of Angmar, etc.



I could see an epic saga here with political infighting among the Dúnedain, etc., and so many good stories to tell about Arnor in the Third Age.


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## Hriston (Nov 4, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> A show in which the estate points out what can and can't be used in various media with fan reaction.



Why just the estate? Surely the Saul Zaentz Company would have something to say about this.


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## Hriston (Nov 4, 2022)

Cadence said:


> I would go for this if I could trust the producers...
> 
> So maybe just the books.
> 
> ...



This would tie in well with the idea in the OP about the voyage of the ring bearers. Eventually, Sam could be brought in as well and they could all arrive in Tol Eressëa  together.


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## Cadence (Nov 4, 2022)

Hriston said:


> This would tie in well with the idea in the OP about the voyage of the ring bearers. Eventually, Sam could be brought in as well and they could all arrive in Tol Eressëa  together.



The last quest of Frodo and Sam -- as they have to sail back from Tol Eressëa to Tol Morwen to save Gimli and Legalos.


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## Hriston (Nov 4, 2022)

Cadence said:


> The last quest of Frodo and Sam -- as they have to sail back from Tol Eressëa to Tol Morwen to save Gimli and Legalos.



On Tol Morwen, Bilbo could recite The Lay of the Children of Húrin.


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## trappedslider (Nov 4, 2022)

Hriston said:


> Why just the estate? Surely the Saul Zaentz Company would have something to say about this.



Well, now it would be Embracer Group (bought rights back in august) but yes they would need to be part of the round table discussion.

A gardening show hosted by Sam would be cool.


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## Hriston (Nov 4, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Well, now it would be Embracer Group (bought rights back in august) but yes they would need to be part of the round table discussion.
> 
> A gardening show hosted by Sam would be cool.



Ah yes, I hadn't realized they had actually acquired Middle-earth Enterprises, but that does indeed appear to be the case. 

"Gardening with Gamgee" could have recurring appearances from the Gaffer and Farmer Maggot. Maybe Sean Astin's available.


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## Hriston (Nov 7, 2022)

Mercurius said:


> *Middle-earth: The Fourth Age.* One of the great literary losses of the last century is that Tolkien didn't complete (barely started, really), his follow-up to the _Lord of the Rings: The New Shadow. _Evidently he didn't write more than 13 pages because it was just too depressing. Anyhow, I'd fast forward from LotR by at least a couple hundred years, maybe longer. Make sure all the canonical characters are dead or have passed over to the West, and then create new characters, with some new evil arising - perhaps a cult of Morgoth, or maybe another Balrog turns up, or one of the blue wizards comes back and is set on domination. Elves are dwindling and diminishing, dwarves becoming more insular. Etc.



I just wanted to return to this because I think _The New Shadow _has some evocative elements that would be a great jumping off point for a series set in the Fourth Age. I'd go with Tolkien's later decision to begin the story in the year 220 of the Fourth Age, one hundred years after the death of Aragorn and near the end of the reign of his son, Eldarion. The old man, Borlas, son of a captain of Gondor and old enough to remember real orcs, makes a great contrast with the young man, Saelon, who, as a child, played at being orcs with his friends. Together they uncover the roots of the "Dark Tree", a rising cult led by the shadowy figure, Herumor, a name which means "Dark Lord".


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