# [Sealed in Blood-V.2] OOC Thread



## Sollir Furryfoot (Sep 21, 2004)

*CURRENT LIST OF RULE CHANGES*
Spell Power=3.5e version
Extra PHB spells from 3.5e
Haste=3.5e version
Epic Spell System=n Epic Spells, I'm ruling that you can only have as much -penalties to the spell DC = to 1/2 the spell's total DC before - penalties
No leadership
95% 3e, ask me if you want anything from 3.5e (all the things that I like from 3.5e that I can think of so far are here on this list)

*REFERENCE*
Old Rogue's Gallery: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=46237
Old OOC Thread (Good Party): http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=55599&highlight=Sealed+Blood
Old OOC Thread (Evil Party): http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=46846&highlight=Sealed+Blood
Old Prologue: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=52264&highlight=Sealed+Blood

More to come soon, feel free to post questions/requests/whatever here for the time being 

Oh yes, I'm thinking that each character will be recruited by one alignment force, so far the list are as follows:

Chaos-Liriel, Lyseeri (Kalanyr's character)
Evil-
Good-Minotaur... (Hafrogman's character)
Law-
Neutrality-Jack of Spades, Rogue 21/Void Incarnate 5 (Lichtenhart's character)

Serpenteye has the option of Law or Evil, one of which I imagine will suit him just fine (If not, tell me and we'll work something out).  Characters only need to share one alignment aspect with the force they represent.  After Serpenteye chooses, I'll recruit the 5th character.


----------



## Serpenteye (Sep 21, 2004)

My character was a bit closer to Evil than to Law at this point in his life, having no actual political power. So I guess he'll be the Champion of Evil.

--
Do you use the common house-rule of automatic success at a roll of 20 and an automatic failure at a roll of 1?
Do you use the rule of multiplying the cost of epic items with 10?



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> MARKET PRICE
> Use the guidelines for nonepic magic items to determine the market price of an epic magic item, with one addition: If the item gives a bonus beyond the limit allowed in for normal, nonepic magic items, multiply the portion of the market price derived from that characteristic by 10. Some epic characteristics, such as caster level, don’t trigger this multiplier.


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot (Sep 22, 2004)

20/1 auto success/failure roll applies only to attacks, saves, and ability checks whereas with skill checks and the like it doesn't apply.

And yes to x10 multiplier for epic items.  I'd prefer to not do it that way, but give less gold to characters in general, but I'm afraid I don't have the time to calculate such a system.


----------



## Kalanyr (Sep 22, 2004)

Actually by the default rules ability checks aren't autosuccesses or autofailures (they are effectively untrained skill checks).


----------



## Serpenteye (Sep 22, 2004)

Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> And yes to x10 multiplier for epic items.  I'd prefer to not do it that way, but give less gold to characters in general, but I'm afraid I don't have the time to calculate such a system.




I was asking because quite a few of the items in the RG cost a lot less than they should according to that rule, particularly the rule about items with a market-price of more than 200'000gp being considered Epic items. Since it looked a bit weird to me I wanted a ruling so that I will know how to construct the items for my character.


----------



## Lichtenhart (Sep 22, 2004)

I think at the time we considered epic only items with epic bonuses, disregarding the 200k rule.


----------



## Serpenteye (Sep 22, 2004)

I think there was an item or two that granted epic bonuses, but it's no big deal.


----------



## Kalanyr (Sep 23, 2004)

Licht is correct as to how we did it, if there were epic bonuses they were probably us abusing use-activated spells. *heh*. There were a couple of people with epic items that included the x10 multiple though inside there less than 200 k items. (eg Bracers of Armour +9 for 810 000 inside an item that was largely non-epic, with the other stuff not being multiplied.)


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot (Sep 23, 2004)

My mistake, ability checks should go along with skill checks on non auto success/auto fail.

I think the others explained the nuances of the item costs well enough, we're just going to do that methinks.


----------



## Serpenteye (Sep 23, 2004)

Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> I revised the Paragon template completely, not just for your use, but also for mine as I found it a bit over the top as it stood in the ELH (which looked about ECL 14 or 15 with a little bit of cuts anyways).  I started from there and I hope you find that it still works with your character idea.
> 
> PARAGON CREATURE
> CREATING A PARAGON CREATURE
> ...




You've weakened SR, attacks and AC quite a bit, which I suppose is a good thing since I could easily gain an AC of 78 and a SR of 51 with the earlier version. My character would have been nearly invulnerable, only affected by his enemies at a roll of 1. That would probably have been unplayable for you and the rest of the group. 
Overall, you've weakened pretty much everything about the template, except the ability-score bonuses for which I am grateful. I don't really see any glaring weaknesses, though, except for a Huge vulnerablilty to level-based spells such as Holy Word. Any cleric of an equivalent CR has a 50% chance of killing him outright with a 7th level spell, but I guess I can compensate for that by buying plenty of items of immunity. 
Defensively the template seems ok, but offensively there's not really that much he can do to affect the outcome of a battle at our level. The original template gave him a considerable bonus for beating SR compared to his CR and a nice bonus to physical attacks. Within a few more levels of Ur-Priest he will be quite powerful though, and in another ten levels or so he will totally dominate, I guess.
 It does seem a little bit weak for it's Ecl, though it is still playable.

I'd like to add a few more abilities to the template, to balance it out a little. Most of it is purely RP, and the rest can be replicated by spending a few thousand gold on magical items, so it won't really have any effect in battle. 

*A Paragon does not need to eat, sleep or breathe.
*A Paragon does not age physically after having reached adulthood and is not affected by any magical aging-attacks or -effects.
*A Paragon is immune to all poisons and disease from non-epic sources (Non-epic spells, items that replicate non-epic spells and creatures and hazards with a CR beneath 21).
*A Paragon is immune to all level- and ability-draining attacks and spells from non-epic sources.
*A Paragon is immune to Death-effects from non-epic sources.
*A Paragon is filth-repellant, he and the items on his body never becomes dirty and never needs cleaning.

A handful of items would do the same thing, mostly, and better in some cases. But making the traits innate just feels better. I think they suit the template quite well, exalting it above the base needs and weaknesses of mortal flesh.
It's not an all-or nothing deal, I'd be quite happy for just a few of these traits.


----------



## Kalanyr (Sep 23, 2004)

Sollir is using 3e spells mainly, so Holy Word ain't gonna do anything if you have 12 or more HD (which you do).

(Oh and as one who helped out with the ECL here's my 2 cents on the power level)

The original template gave a +1 bonus for beating SR (+15) vs its Character Level (ECL 14), this one gives +0 (+12 vs ECL 12).

He still casts 6th level arcane spells at Caster Level 24 and 7th level divine spells from Ur-Priest (at Caster Level 24) . His attack bonus is +20/+15 (not including the +7 mod from stats or any magic items). He gains +12 DC on his highest level spells (+8 insight - 3 spell level +7 Int) relative to a normal wizard and +13 DC relative to a normal cleric (+8 insight -2 spell level +7 Wis). His main loss is the inability to use Epic Spellcasting and even this is achievable within 7 levels.

(The above assume a fairly maximally efficient gestalt build of  (Cleric/Wizard) 5 (Wizard/Ur-Priest) 7 and 14 ecl from Paragon and Gestalt)


----------



## Serpenteye (Sep 23, 2004)

Kalanyr said:
			
		

> The original template gave a +1 bonus for beating SR (+15) vs its Character Level (ECL 14), this one gives +0 (+12 vs ECL 12).




No. The original template gave a SR = CR +25, a SR of 51 on ecl 26. This template gives a SR of ecl +11, a SR of 37 on ecl 26. It's quite a big difference. A spellcaster can quite easily get trough a SR of 37 at our level, 51 is not so easily beaten. 

Ecl = CR for PC's (?). 



			
				Kalanyr said:
			
		

> (The above assume a fairly maximally efficient gestalt build of  (Cleric/Wizard) 5 (Wizard/Ur-Priest) 7 and 14 ecl from Paragon and Gestalt)




Cleric levels won't work with Ur-Priest, the Ur-Priest loses all previous divine spellcasting ability.
I'm going to go with a Gestalt Wizard5/Incanatar7-Monk1/Fighter4/Ur-Priest7, I think.


----------



## Kalanyr (Sep 23, 2004)

No the original template gives an SR of the Creatures CR + 10, not +25 (just looked in my ELH and checked the errata dunno where the SRD CR +25 comes from unless it includes the +15 CR the creature gets as a paragon as part of that (which is the only logical explanation I can see)). 
(And sorry before I thought you meant ability to penetrate SR, not your own SR).

Oh and the cleric levels were effectively wasted levels, they were only there to grant access to a couple of class skills needed to qualify for Ur-Priest as a level 5 (wizard/cleric (using the Trickery Domain)) (since they have a d8 HD, and Medium BAB as well as armour proficiencies) , if you use your build the only difference to my above analysis is that your Attack Bonus increases by +1.

Um and SR 51 is basically impossible to beat at our level:
Ultimate SR puncthrough build
Wizard 5/Red Wizard 10/Archmage 5/Epic Red Wizard 6 (with Epic Spellpenetration) 
has a SR overcome check of +46 with spells from his favoured school, and thats the best you can get. 
(if he has the time and resources to use Circle Magic he can bolster the check to +60 but thats an unusual circumstance).

This is a build dedicated soley to beating SR and it still can't beat SR 51 all the time.


----------



## Kalanyr (Sep 23, 2004)

Oh and SE everyone else in this game can regular be found in my chatroom on Psionics.Net.

To get there use the Enworld java client and after its connected to #dnd3e type /join #IR

Um and SE your build doesn't work:
Monk/Wizard 1 (Good)
Fighter/Wizard 4  (Good)
Ur-Priest/Incantar 7 (Bad, you can't gestalt two Prestige classes a gestalt level must feature at least one core class by Unearthed Arcana rules.)


----------



## Serpenteye (Sep 23, 2004)

Kalanyr said:
			
		

> No the original template gives an SR of the Creatures CR + 10, not +25 (just looked in my ELH and checked the errata dunno where the SRD CR +25 comes from unless it includes the +15 CR the creature gets as a paragon as part of that (which is the only logical explanation I can see)).
> (And sorry before I thought you meant ability to penetrate SR, not your own SR).




Ah, I knew that was too good to be true.



			
				Kalanyr said:
			
		

> Oh and the cleric levels were effectively wasted levels, they were only there to grant access to a couple of class skills needed to qualify for Ur-Priest as a level 5 (wizard/cleric (using the Trickery Domain)) (since they have a d8 HD, and Medium BAB as well as armour proficiencies) , if you use your build the only difference to my above analysis is that your Attack Bonus increases by +1.




And a few bonus feats and 2 HPs/level. I didn't really have anything better to do with the levels.



			
				Kalanyr said:
			
		

> Oh and SE everyone else in this game can regular be found in my chatroom on Psionics.Net.
> 
> To get there use the Enworld java client and after its connected to #dnd3e type /join #IR
> 
> ...




I guess I'll drop the Incanatar then.


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot (Sep 24, 2004)

Thanks Kal for responding to so many questions for me.  I'll be really busy these next three days, and hopefully I've answered all the questions I need to for you all to have your characters finished in about a week (which is hopefully when I'll get the ball rolling)

SE, these traits seem to be fine with me, the rest you'll have to purchase.
*A Paragon does not need to eat, sleep or breathe.
*A Paragon does not age physically after having reached adulthood and is not affected by any magical aging-attacks or -effects.  (Although I think it'l work like Timeless Body and you'll still die when your ticker runs out, so to speak)
*A Paragon is filth-repellant, he and the items on his body never becomes dirty and never needs cleaning.

I'll be posting the character thread in the Rogue's Gallery in just a lil bit, please post 2 copies of your character, one without magic items on, and one with, so I can make sure to tweak anyone just a bit if they're too weak or too powerful than the rest.


----------



## Serpenteye (Sep 24, 2004)

Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> SE, these traits seem to be fine with me, the rest you'll have to purchase.
> *A Paragon does not need to eat, sleep or breathe.
> *A Paragon does not age physically after having reached adulthood and is not affected by any magical aging-attacks or -effects.  (Although I think it'l work like Timeless Body and you'll still die when your ticker runs out, so to speak)
> *A Paragon is filth-repellant, he and the items on his body never becomes dirty and never needs cleaning.




Thanks, It was better than what I expected to get . I'll have the character finished in time.


----------



## Serpenteye (Sep 24, 2004)

I've posted the unequipped version of my character. It's not quite finished yet.

---


			
				Kalanyr in RG said:
			
		

> Name: Hyanda tel Seldarine (Blade of the Gods)
> 
> *New Feat *
> From: http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=762209&postid=762209&perpage=1
> ...




This is apparently a feat converted from the BOVD for use by exalted characters. I'm assuming that the original feat does much of the same thing for evil alignments. And I also noticed that the text mentions that Paragon Creatures can speak High Celestial by default, without taking the feat. If that is the case I assume that the same applies to Dark Speach, High Neutral, High Chaos and High Law.   

Does it?


----------



## Lichtenhart (Sep 25, 2004)

I posted naked Jack for you to see.

I've got some questions too:
- With the notable exception of Perform, I think 3.5e skills make more sense than 3.0 ones. Which do you prefer?
-Same thing for Crippling Strike: Does it deal 1 Str damage (3.0) or 2 Str damage (3.5)?


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot (Sep 25, 2004)

SE, Dark Speech is indeed in the BoVD, although there haven't been Law/Chaos variants for it yet (I'm not sure if I want to take the time to develope such variants ATM, although maybe in the future I might).

3.5e skills, with the exception of perform are probably the best way to go I suppose.  I'm using a variant of diplomacy/bluff and the like that can be found here: http://www.giantitp.com/

3.5e crippling strike is fine too, I never liked the original 3e one b/c I thought it was too weak.

Btw, looking at the Rogue's Gallery, just about everything looks fine so far.  Feel free to add in any nonmagical equipment to your "naked" characters-I'm afraid I wasn't very specific with my request.

P.S., Serpenteye, your character has a multiclassing penalty ATM with 1 level in Monk, 4 in Fighter, and 12 in Wizard, even with your favored class: any ability.


----------



## Serpenteye (Sep 25, 2004)

Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> SE, Dark Speech is indeed in the BoVD,




And as a Paragon he gains the feat without having to pay for it? As according to the wording of the paragraph I quoted.   



			
				Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> although there haven't been Law/Chaos variants for it yet (I'm not sure if I want to take the time to develope such variants ATM, although maybe in the future I might).




That was just my (failed) attempt of a joke. Never mind.



			
				Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> P.S., Serpenteye, your character has a multiclassing penalty ATM with 1 level in Monk, 4 in Fighter, and 12 in Wizard, even with your favored class: any ability.




Hmm, I thought the two halves of the Gestalt functioned separately for the purposes of multiclassing penalties. A 12th level wizard gains no penalty, neither does a Human 1st lvl monk/ 4th lvl Fighter.
I guess I'll have to re-make the character.


----------



## Serpenteye (Sep 25, 2004)

Btw, is there a saving throw against the effect of a Mirror of Opposition in your campaign. If not, I'm buying one .



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Mirror of Opposition
> 
> This item resembles a normal mirror about 4 feet long and 3 feet wide. It can be affixed to a surface and activated by speaking a command word. The same command word deactivates the mirror. If a creature sees its reflection in the mirror’s surface, an exact duplicate of that creature comes into being. This opposite immediately attacks the original. The duplicate has all the possessions and powers of its original (including magic). Upon the defeat or destruction of either the duplicate or the original, the duplicate and her items disappear completely. The mirror functions up to four times per day.
> 
> Caster Level: 15th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, clone; Market Price: 92,000 gp; Weight: 45 lb.


----------



## Kalanyr (Sep 26, 2004)

Hey Sollir are we using 3e or 3.5e Psionics ?


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot (Sep 28, 2004)

*nods* the feat is fine as a bonus feat, but I'm doubting I'd let you change it if your char changed his alignment.

I think I'll enforce the multiclassing penalties of a gestalt overall, even if the reason might only be I dislike just having 1 level in a class for many benefits (even though just 1 more level of monk and 1 less of fighter wouldn't hurt that much)

Will save DC 22 I'm tempted to say on the Mirror of Op. (8 for spell level of clone, +4 for int required to cast it) but while it seems kinda high for the price I think its reasonable for this game.

Kal->3.5e psionics I think would work best. (Although I dislike how much 3.5e stuff I'm actually starting to let in =( )

Edit-I'll prolly end up starting the game on sunday due to my extra busy week, but that's fine as everyone isn't finished with their characters.  (Just b/c I'm starting on Sunday doesn't mean you have to have your stats comlpetely finished by then, as I won't begin with a fight, btw)


----------



## hafrogman (Sep 28, 2004)

Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> (Although I dislike how much 3.5e stuff I'm actually starting to let in =( )




Speaking of which, there's some stuff from a 3.5 source I wanted to talk to you about   So if you wanna drop by #IR sometime or drop me a line at hafrogman at gmail dot com.


----------



## Serpenteye (Sep 28, 2004)

My character has been equiped and updated. I couldn't afford the Mirror of Opposition, or a decent weapon, but he should still be able to kick some ass.


----------



## Serpenteye (Oct 1, 2004)

Bump


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot (Oct 1, 2004)

Note I'm still around, I've just been really busy this week with tests/preparing for a competition on sunday.  After this weekend is over, my free time will increase dramatically 

Edit-I do have a list of further changes though that I hope won't make people too unhappy.  Just stuff like limiting True Seeing/Mindblank to only being able to counter illusions/enchantments and divinations (respectively) of a spell level equal to them (or perhaps 1 lower, I'm not completely sure yet) and a few other changes to prevent game imbalance.  I'm thinking of adding some new spells to fill in some gaps, ex: Superior Dispelling, 9th level spell, as per greater dispel but check is 1d20+5+your caster level (max 30), Greater Heal 8hp level (cap CL 20) 8th level spell (vs. Heal which I think is 6 hp/level, cap at CL 15?).

So yeah, I'll get back to you all on that when I can.


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot (Oct 5, 2004)

Thank you everyone for being patient, esp. Serpenteye b/c I know you must have put in alot of work to get up your character so quickly with all his equipment.  I do have a list of nitpicks, but that can wait for a little bit when everyone has got their magic items up and I can compare more easily before I throw a few nerfs.

SE, I'm kind of afraid that since I like your character's future story so much, that I'm subconsciously tailoring the plotline more to your character than the rest, even without his background coming up yet.  That, and also due to your character's optimization compared to the rest, is making me consider giving you a solo adventure, although set in the same world and approximate timeline (although not interacting with the other PCs too much, if at all).  I'm not sure if I want to split you up with the rest of the group, but it's an idea I'm considering, and I'd really like your feedback on it (and if we go this route, I'd like more of your input as to where the future God Emperor-who is still nameless  is at this point in time).  Thanks!

I think I've talked with everyone else about some nitpicks in chat, any other questions feel free to post here or ask me in chat.


----------



## Serpenteye (Oct 5, 2004)

Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> Thank you everyone for being patient, esp. Serpenteye b/c I know you must have put in alot of work to get up your character so quickly with all his equipment.  I do have a list of nitpicks, but that can wait for a little bit when everyone has got their magic items up and I can compare more easily before I throw a few nerfs.




  



			
				Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> SE, I'm kind of afraid that since I like your character's future story so much, that I'm subconsciously tailoring the plotline more to your character than the rest, even without his background coming up yet.  That, and also due to your character's optimization compared to the rest, is making me consider giving you a solo adventure, although set in the same world and approximate timeline (although not interacting with the other PCs too much, if at all).  I'm not sure if I want to split you up with the rest of the group, but it's an idea I'm considering, and I'd really like your feedback on it (and if we go this route, I'd like more of your input as to where the future God Emperor-who is still nameless  is at this point in time).  Thanks!




Being a huge egomaniac, I think a solo-game would be great, especially with that character.  I would be willing to put quite a bit of time into such a game. I don't know how optimized he is, though, his AC is formidable but there are many other ways to kill him. Kalanyr's character is his equal or superior in many ways... but I guess that's beside the point if we go the solo-route.
Much of his background is buried somewhere in the old IR-threads and I have much of it in my head so I should be able to put it together pretty easily. The hardest part is the name, it's not easy to come up with a suitable name that's not already been taken by some important figure sometime in actual or fictional history. That's the reason I picked "The God-Emperor" in the first place.   
The primary reason why I'm not already finished with the character is that I wanted to keep close to the same pace as the other players. I didn't want to put in a lot of work only to find that the game had been canceled, especially since that has been the fate of so many planned IR games of late. But I guess that now I can step up the pace a little.
Input will be incoming.


----------



## Kalanyr (Oct 5, 2004)

Kalanyr's character ,if you mean Hyanda, was vastly overpowered (unless compared to Hellfire Wyrm or Tracy), Liriel has been depowered a bit since the old game too.


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot (Oct 6, 2004)

Glad you like the idea SE, I anxiously await any info you can give me to help prepare your solo adventure.

Everyone else, since SE will have his own adventure, Dalamar will be taking his spot as the representative for evil.  I'll talk to Dalamar and in a few days I'll start up the in game thread


----------



## Serpenteye (Oct 6, 2004)

Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> Glad you like the idea SE, I anxiously await any info you can give me to help prepare your solo adventure.




Ok, you wanted to know where the G-E was at this point in time, so here it is. I hope it's heplful.
 His wealth and character level imply that he has already been active for quite some time. He's originally from Aerdy, and his first steps as an adventurer were taken in that volatile political landscape, but he has not yet achieved any political power (because of the "no Leadership", because it's not reflected in his wealth-allocation and since that would probably make this campaign too political and complex). His ambition, though, has probably all along been to gain power in any form he possibly could.
 Since his stats make him exceptional he must have started to achieve the goal he'd been working for all that time, but since he has no power now he must have had a major setback. Perhaps one of the dominant clergies or noble houses of Aerdy managed to outmaneuvre him in an armed or political struggle.
 After being defeated he may have realised that he needed to gain greater personal power to be able to succeed at challenging the representatives of the Gods and set out to improve himself the only way DnD allows; by killing and looting. Maybe he learned of an artifact that could help his quest, maybe a demiplane open for conquest, or maybe a dying God who just needed a little shove in the right direction to part with it's divine essence.
 The possibilities are endless, and he could be basically anywhere in the Multiverse you feel like putting the adventure. There is no group of beings he would not associate with, no deed to dark to be done, to achieve his goals.

If you need to know more I'd be happy to fill you in.


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot (Oct 6, 2004)

I have a kernel of a plot idea for you that I think you'll like.  It'll take me a bit to plot out things a bit and the beginning may be slightly rail roaded but I'm still in the developing stage of it.  I'm afraid I'm not familiar with Aerdy, is it somewhere in Oerth or Faerun?  And also, how much control would you like me to have with your char's earlier background?


----------



## Serpenteye (Oct 7, 2004)

Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> I have a kernel of a plot idea for you that I think you'll like.  It'll take me a bit to plot out things a bit and the beginning may be slightly rail roaded but I'm still in the developing stage of it.
> And also, how much control would you like me to have with your char's earlier background?



Rail-roading is ok, as long as it's reasonable.
It's not really possible for me to write out all the details of his background. I simply cannot account for all the neccessary events that represent 26 levels worth of XP-gain. Therefore I can only write a pretty general outline (with perhaps a couple of significant instances elaborated on) of his career until now, an outline that will give you plenty of room to fill in any details you feel would give increased depth to your story-line. I still want the final control, but I'll be very flexible. 



			
				Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> I'm afraid I'm not familiar with Aerdy, is it somewhere in Oerth or Faerun?




Oerth. Also known as The Great Kingdom, it's the nation that was the core of the Union of Oerth for most of the IR. 
__

PS. I've filled in the last blanks in the Feat and Skill-lists. He's quite a well-rounded character now, I think.

PPS. Thanks again.


----------



## Serpenteye (Oct 8, 2004)

I've taken a look in the Rogues Gallery. It's quite an inspiration to read so many skillfully made characters. Well done all.  But isn't the Lyseeri-template a bit powerful for its LA? I know Kalanyr had a hand in correcting the official WoTC Paragon-template, so I know he's concerned about the issue of game-balance. I'm sure that is the case even when it affects his own characters and his own home-made templates.  :\ 

For an LA of 16 he gains 21 levels of spellcasting, 24 (!!!) bonus feats, 108 racial points to the ability scores of his character, tons of psi-like and spell-like abilities usable at will, the supremely powerful spell Shapechange usable 5/day, nearly unbeatable regeneration, Su abilities, Ex abilities, etc, etc...

It's not really any of my business anymore but don't you think that's just a little bit unbalanced?

It may be balanced with the Paragon Cydian Overdeity version of the God-Emperor, but hardly with any 26th level character.


----------



## Serpenteye (Oct 9, 2004)

*Some more Spam for your perusal*

I've updated the RG again, some of the background is up. I'm probably going to change my mind about the name(s) several times and there's a lot more to be done, but it's at least a step in the right direction.


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot (Oct 9, 2004)

Thanks, I'll get around to reading that soon.  I've expanded upon the idea I have for your first adventure, but I'll still need some time to fine tune the details and such-most likely we'd start on Sunday or Monday.


----------



## Kalanyr (Oct 9, 2004)

/me goes and finds a _normal_ Cydian. 



> Cydian (3.5) (80% Official (Awaits Mr Draco's comments)
> 
> Large Outsider
> Hit Dice:...........................30d8+420 (555 hp)
> ...




And that average Cydian,already has better stats than Liriel with 6 +5 tomes, 40 point buy and 2 level up points. Did I mention the 20 extra HD,  the access to 9th level spells, the higher damage per attack? oh and the massively higher attack bonus. It's also faster in every mode of movement and has even harder to penetrate Regeneration. 

While Liriel may be overpowered compared to a 26th level character, which is why its still a work in progress subject to Sollir's rulings... she is not even CLOSE to a match for a normal Cydian, let alone a Paragon Cydian, much less a Paragon Cydian Overgod (who incidentally could have that DSA that kills all beings without at least Divine Rank 0 within 20' of  it constantly) .


----------



## Kalanyr (Oct 9, 2004)

Err, and now I've made my rant, some notes from me:

Dropping Liriel 2 HD, seems wise, her relevant skills totals currently slightly exceed Jack's which is unacceptable.
Since the Class Levels/Outsider HD for a Lyseeri are identical, the double stacking for caster level should probably go.

In total this will drop her access to spells to that of an 8th level wizard (with a caster level of 14), a 5th level Sorceror (with a caster level of 11), a 5th level druid (with a caster level of 11), and a 5th level Psion (with a manifester level of 11.), it will reduce all her non-spell/spell-like DCs by 1 (except the guarded Presence Scry DC which will remain the same and the DC required to see her araus which will drop to DC 29 for epic spells and 8th level for normal spells, her true seeing will similarly drop to Heightened to 8th level.) and most of her special ability caster levels will drop by 2 (to 14th).  This will make anything of our level with standard SR literally immune to her spells and spell-like abilities, and Theseus will then save against all the non-spell/spell-like abilities on a 2 or more. It also removes her access to some of the more potent alternate forms which I'm not yet finished statting. And while in my opinion Shapechange is not vastly powerful when one has 8 HD and many many abilities dependent on one's own form, I'm willing to remove it.  It will also reduce Mithral-fangs HD by 2 (and reduce his Dex to 34 from the loss of a level up point at 20 HD). It will also have a similar effect on Dojj.

Edit- Err and I forgot to note it will also considerable weaken her Psi-Like abilities since both the manifester level will decrease to 14th and some augmentations will be lost. It will also reduce the Magic Weapons ability to 4 levels. (Though in either case this is likely to be completely irrelevant once equipment is finished.)


----------



## Serpenteye (Oct 9, 2004)

You do realise that I wasn't being entirely serious about comparing the Lyseeri to a Paragon Cydian Overdeity, don't you Kalanyr?
 Nevertheless, she'll still have unlimited access to many useful low (and not so low)-level spells and abilities, whereas my character will quickly run out of spells. She'll still be able to effortlessly decimate any army. She still has access to higher spell-levels than my character, and higher base stats, and a massive amount of bonus feats, and some very powerful SU abilities, both regeneration and fast healing. On top of all that she gets 15 equivalent class-levels of spellcasting classes, that will stack with any additional class-levels. Granted, she doesn't get their HDs or skill-ranks but her regeneration makes her practically unkillable anyway. Your character isn't a 26th level characater any more than a Cydian would be, I'm sorry but if you don't realise that you're obviously blinded by powergaming greed. I'm also sorry for attacking you like this, you're a great guy (as far as I know) but we're not playing an IR now and your character is a very big fish in a very small bowl. 
Speaking of powergaming; Sollir is it ok if I re-revise the Paragon template to make it comparable with the Lyseri? I'd like to shift the emphasis of the template towards spellcasting.


----------



## Kalanyr (Oct 9, 2004)

Ehh I figured that you weren't being entirely serious about the overgod part. And my character is still considerably weaker than a mere _average_ Cydian, continuing to compare her as if they were equivalent is both inaccurate and unfair. Heck last time I looked at my notes an adult Lyseeri was inferior to a Cydian and Liriel is based on a wyrmling. 

And I'd like to point out that 3 x 5 levels of spellcasting is NOT equal to 15 levels of spellcasting in a single class  (See the Mystic Theurge as an example of this Wizard 10/Cleric 10 != Wizard 20 in power). There's also a specific note that Lyseeri with levels in said classes (Druid/Psion/Sorceror) cannot exceed their HD in effective level, I left it out of Liriels write up because she will never take levels in those classes. There are several other similar bits and pieces left out based on scaling, for example the regeneration and fast healing are both based on HD, as is the PR/SR which I'm likely to drop somewhat anyway (probably to 19+HD, for a total of 27). And her indestructable regeneration is bypassed by cold iron which isn't exactly uncommon (indeed with the changes I suggested on the previous page her Regeneration 8 and Fast Healing 4 in total would amount to 12 hp a round and considering that fully equipped she will have 216 hp (192 unequipped), more than 100 less than the god emperor, I am unsure that this is unreasonable.). Her indestructable Damage Reduction can be bypassed by a +1 axiomatic cold iron longsword (cost 20 315 gp), your damage reduction can be bypassed by a +6 club (cost 720 300 gp) I believe thats 699 985 gold pieces in your favour, incidentally the same weapon also reduces her healing to 4 hp a round, 6 less than yours.   

Higher Spell-Levels ? Her highest true spells would be 4th level. Her spell-like abilities are based off her considerably lower Charisma (and are in general not unlimited in the case of spells above 3rd level). And her caster level is much lower than yours in all cases. (By 10 for the wizard and spell-likes, by 12 for the others, which means if your spells are 50/50 to work vs SR, hers are guaranteed to fail.) The true spells also do considerably less damage over a smaller area due to lower caster level and lower spell-level access. 

And also unlike you a banishment, dictum, dismisal or holy word can send her packing for 24 hours. She's also susceptible to Planar Binding, Greater Planar Binding, being Gated and she's susceptible to the Planar Turning/Rebuking ability by a cleric with a 23rd or higher effective turning level and the Planar Turning Feat (not unreasonable for a 21st level cleric) (and instant death or eternal service with no save from such a cleric with the Greater Turning power or one with an effective turning level of 46). 

A brief glance at an infernal (a CR 26 epic monsters) indicates that she's not gonna be taking it on in 1 on 1 combat with any chance whatsoever of winning, which means she's at the very least well below ECL 34 (4 ECL 34 characters should not be at all threatened by an infernal) or possibly that the ELH is somewhat flawed in places, take your pick.

And now that I've said that I'm perfectly happy to conceed you may have a point and wait and see what Sollir says. I really don't care, I wanted a chance to play a Lyseeri and I got one, if it doesn't work *shrug* so be it, at least I have the race write up finished if I ever pick up the Aftermath game.

Edited: Length of paragraphs, removed some snarkiness.


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot (Oct 9, 2004)

Let's be friendly everyone, after all, we don't need to compare the Lyseeri to the future God Emperor for they're no longer in the same game per se, and definately do not compare anyone to a Cydrian, which has a very long time to go before even its idea has reached its conception.

Serpenteye, I'm afraid the revised Paragon is a no go, because it is as much of a template for me to use at it is for you-you may still switch your characters ECL and such.  Kalanyr, I have the confidence in you for you to make any changes you deem appropriate to balance your character with the rest, and I'll proofread after your final changes, but everything so far looks alright.  Tweaking ECLs at these levels isn't very easy one bit.

And just a few words of wisdom: don't expect to be fighting opponents that level 13 characters would find standard   So you can decimate an army, that's absolutely fine at this ECL, assuming it's a standard army


----------



## Serpenteye (Oct 9, 2004)

True, as long as you, Kalanyr and the other fellow players are content with their relative power-level it's all perfectly fine. Perhaps Cold Iron Axiomatic Longswords are as common as candy in your setting, I've never seen one in a game but what do I know?   
I'll be nice from now on, I promise .


----------



## Kalanyr (Oct 9, 2004)

Err I was being generous with the cost of such a weapon if you really want to be snarky: +1 surestriking cold iron dagger (Cost 10,302 gp) and if you really want to focus on the sheer specificness to the character (which I'm sure you do since you're oh so subtle remarks indicates you're astounded by it) there's also a +1 surestriking metalline morphing (weapon of choice) (at a mere 52,300 + (cost of non-masterwork weapon of choice) gp its an absolute steal), which will overcome ANY non-epic damage reduction (incidentally still completely incapable of overcoming your DR), making it a fine choice of weapon for any high-level character. 

Considering the relative cost of any of these weapons compared to the cost of a +6 club, I'm pretty sure that they ARE more common (I doubt the pre-requisite 25th level spellcasters for +6 weapons grow on trees for a start).


----------



## Serpenteye (Oct 9, 2004)

Kalanyr said:
			
		

> Err I was being generous with the cost of such a weapon if you really want to be snarky: +1 surestriking cold iron dagger (Cost 10,302 gp) and if you really want to focus on the sheer specificness to the character (which I'm sure you do since you're oh so subtle remarks indicates you're astounded by it) there's also a +1 surestriking metalline morphing (weapon of choice) (at a mere 52,300 + (cost of non-masterwork weapon of choice) gp its an absolute steal), which will overcome ANY non-epic damage reduction (incidentally still completely incapable of overcoming your DR), making it a fine choice of weapon for any high-level character.
> 
> Considering the relative cost of any of these weapons compared to the cost of a +6 club, I'm pretty sure that they ARE more common (I doubt the pre-requisite 25th level spellcasters for +6 weapons grow on trees for a start).




Nearly every creature in the Epic Level Handbook can penetrate Epic DR, but that's not the main point. A DR of 10 or 15 is inconsequential at our levels anyway. The point is that a creature that has both regeneration and DR usually only suffers normal damage from attacks that penetrate the DR and even if the Lyseeri suffers normal damage from Cold Iron weapons Cold iron is not that common. In nine times out of ten (and that's being extremely generous) your character will regenerate any damage inflicted upon it. A CR 30 Atropal cannot kill your character. A CR 57 Hecatoncheires cannot kill your character. A CR 26 Infernal cannot kill your character. A level 90 fighter cannot kill your character unless he's extremely lucky (even if he could overcome her regeneration she could still use one of her innumerable modes of movement to get away). Nearly none (and that's being extremely generous too) of the creatures in the EHB can kill your character, who is immune to nearly every source of damage. Granted, there are ways to kill it but you must admit that they are very limited.

How can you possibly justify getting 24 bonus feats from the template? How can you justify the great number of Spell-like and psionic abilities (most of which are defensive or indirect and not hindered by SR)? The Su abilities (SR doesn't apply to them)? The immunities against (nearly) everything? The spellcasting-levels from three unrelated classes? Unearthly Grace? Superior Movement? Perfect Senses? Etc, etc, etc... How can you possibly justify taking a part in revising the Paragon template when your own character is this overpowered? The sheer amount of bonuses and abilities is greater than any five creatures in the Monster Manual. 

But, whatever. As long as you are all happy...


----------



## Kalanyr (Oct 9, 2004)

One would expect it to be greater than any 5 creatures in the MM, the Lyseeri were originally created by taking the abilities of the creatures under my control at the end of the 3rd IR and turning them into one creature, in general terms this means many many abilities but none of them compare to the monstrously powerful abilities possessed by your Cydians (who in their original form were literally completely undestoyable) or Sollir's Tri-Dominatrix.

And are you really telling me that these abominations with standard monster wealth for their challenge rating can't spare the gold for a non-magical cold iron weapon (the most expensive of which I think is a thinblade costing 200 gp)  with which to coupe de gras a fallen foe ? (if they are wise they will be carrying at least the weapons necessary to easily maim any celestial, a cold iron weapon and a silver one)  

And besides that the regeneration is easily adjustable to lawful (though I would prefer not to since standing in an Anti-magic field equivalent or dead magic zone makes you unkillable under ANY circumstances which do not involve a creature with the Lawful subtype, a situation which I did take into account and avoided ,cold iron was chosen of the options simply because it was the most appropriate thematically in my view, I wasn't even thinking about monsters) which is bypassed by about half the abominations. Fire and Acid as negators are also obviously unacceptable. 

Oh and given your endless subtle and far from subtle barbs perhaps you would like to suggest a reasonable LA ? I doubt it since there is already very little chance for Liriel to affect any reasonable opponent, and elevating it the point where her defensive abilities are trivial results in her being roughly equivalent to a commoner tag-along (having no meaningful defensive or offensive ability is not balance). 

I will finish this character I will see what Sollir has to say and then if necessary I will simpy build a 26th level cleric (or dropout) since our party seems to have a rogue, a mage and a fighter already.

The Paragon LA was also reduced (to compensate for the other reductions) and guess who it was that insisted on keeping the high and ODD ability score modifiers because it seemed you wanted them so much ? 

And to be frank for the rest of it, I have to justify absolutely _nothing_ to you, I have no moral or social responsibility to account to you for any of my thoughts, words or actions (unless they affect you and since you are no longer in this party they quiet simply do not). I have chosen to spend more than 3 hours ,which I could have spent far more productively and enjoyably doing nearly anything possible,   attempting to justify things to you, to no real effect apart from finally getting your regeneration complaint out at the very end there, which I will now think about and attempt to deal with, and I now choose to spend no more time attempting to discourse with someone who won't even put his REAL point forward to begin with and thinks being falsely courteous and tagging every post with "as long as you all are happy" (or variants) and/or smilies makes things ever so much better.


----------



## Serpenteye (Oct 9, 2004)

You keep accusing me of trying to be subtle, as if that's the greatest insult you can come up with. Why would I try to be subtle when you obviously don't understand what I'm writing even when I'm being blunt? 
You are right about one thing. This discussion is completely pointless and wasting any more time on it would be foolish. I'm done with this. I will state again that I have no problems with you as a person and I hope we can interact again under more courteous forms. (I am aware of the hypochricy of that statement in light of my above insult, but I thought the line was too good to pass up.) 
No hard feelings, eh?


----------



## Kalanyr (Oct 10, 2004)

I find people who don't say what they mean annoying, so yes trying to hide your purpose under fine words does annoy me, I would have preferred you listed your actual points in the first post you made about this, it would have been far more constructive than your over-exaggerated comparison and wasted far less of both of our time, and it would have provided me with 3 hours with which to work on actually dealing with your complaints. 

That said considering how unlikely it is we will be again interacting in a situation where our different styles clash quiet this much, I look forward to interacting with you again in different situations, no hard feelings here.


----------



## Serpenteye (Oct 13, 2004)

I was going to apologize for my recent absence, I've been having some problems with my computer, but I'm relieved to see that I haven't missed anything. Thus, I suppose I'll just announce my return.


----------



## Sollir Furryfoot (Oct 14, 2004)

Hah, I'm glad my creativity's recent stagnation hasn't hindered you too much then.  Don't worry, I didn't die or anything, waiting for stats for the main party and waiting for my muse to come up with the introduction post for SE


----------



## Kalanyr (Oct 14, 2004)

My apologies too I just haven't felt like finishing my character after the exchange with Serpenteyes, I got most of it done last night hopefully I'll finish it tonight..


----------



## Dalamar (Oct 14, 2004)

Usch! Sorry sorry, I've forgotten to post the mostly-equipped version of Kurogasa! Will do that as soon as I get home from uni


----------



## Serpenteye (Oct 19, 2004)

Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> ... waiting for my muse to come up with the introduction post for SE




If there's anything I can do to make it easier for you please let me know.


----------

