# AD&D Kobold picture



## Fieari (Dec 2, 2008)

I was having a discussion about the various depictions of kobolds over the years, and it came up that the AD&D Kobold from the Monstrous Compendium was significantly different from either the dog-like image or the lizard-like image.  Does anyone have this picture available so I can see it?  Google image search has failed me.


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## Amphimir Míriel (Dec 2, 2008)

Fieari said:


> I was having a discussion about the various depictions of kobolds over the years, and it came up that the AD&D Kobold from the Monstrous Compendium was significantly different from either the dog-like image or the lizard-like image.  Does anyone have this picture available so I can see it?  Google image search has failed me.




Weren't they originally goblinoids? The smallest, lowest, meanest of the goblinoid totem pole...?


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## Logan_Bonner (Dec 2, 2008)

I looked it up in our library. It looks kind of like a Boston terrier.


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## JeffB (Dec 2, 2008)

I had a convo with Gary about this here on ENWORLD in one of his many "ASK GARY" threads.

Basically, the original kobold pic by David Sutherland was a mistake. The Kobold was not meant to be a little dog/lizard man, but more of an evil twisted gnome type creature as commonly depicted in real world "legend/mythology"- something like this:







At the time I posted a better picture (which I could not find again now) and Gary basically said "exactly like that is how I pictured them".


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## Sir Brennen (Dec 2, 2008)

Sigh. I miss Jeff Dee.

http://paratime.ca/v_and_v/pics/jeffdee/koboldfun.jpg


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## Dragonbait (Dec 2, 2008)

Kobolds went from scaly devil dogs men (AD&D) to alien pugs with antennae (AD&D 2E MC) to rat men (AD&D 2e MM) to lizard dogs (3E MM) to small evil looking lizard humanoids with next to no canine traits (4E MM). 

I love the litte lizards but the evil gnomish creatures would have been pretty neat too.


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## Oni (Dec 3, 2008)

JeffB said:


> I had a convo with Gary about this here on ENWORLD in one of his many "ASK GARY" threads.
> 
> Basically, the original kobold pic by David Sutherland was a mistake. The Kobold was not meant to be a little dog/lizard man, but more of an evil twisted gnome type creature as commonly depicted in real world "legend/mythology"- something like this:
> 
> ...





Well that would have certainly made Meepo different.  




Sir Brennen said:


> Sigh. I miss Jeff Dee.
> 
> http://paratime.ca/v_and_v/pics/jeffdee/koboldfun.jpg





I feel sorry for the kobolds being abused by the heartless adventurers.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Dec 3, 2008)

Oni said:


> I feel sorry for the kobolds being abused by the heartless adventurers.




Those kobolds are just the diversion.  The kobold ninjas who will defeat the cocky adventurers are lurking just out of shot to the left.


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## RFisher (Dec 3, 2008)

Fieari said:


> I was having a discussion about the various depictions of kobolds over the years, and it came up that the AD&D Kobold from the Monstrous Compendium was significantly different from either the dog-like image or the lizard-like image.  Does anyone have this picture available so I can see it?  Google image search has failed me.




I’m looking at it. Unfortunately the wife took the scanner when she left (>_<) so I can’t scan it for you. First impression I get is indeed canine. Looks like a humanoid pug.


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## diaglo (Dec 3, 2008)

Amphimir Míriel said:


> Weren't they originally goblinoids? The smallest, lowest, meanest of the goblinoid totem pole...?




but that was the OD&D(1974) version. better description of them was in supplement II Blackmoor (1975)

1edADnD had them like the DCS pic
2edADnD MC changed them up a little. they had winged ones too. urds iirc.

edit: kobold is from germanic lore. iirc they are considered "house spirits"


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## Rel (Dec 3, 2008)

It was established in the first session of my new 4e campaign that Kobolds are mutated Dire Sheep who vigorously defend their grazing grounds.  They won't kill you to eat you.  But they'll kill you if your cows eat their grass!


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## Delta (Dec 3, 2008)

diaglo said:


> edit: kobold is from germanic lore. iirc they are considered "house spirits"




Two types (see Wikipedia). (a) Semi-good house spirits. (b) Evil mine spirits. Linguistically, Kobold -> Cobalt, poisonous chemical in the ore you're trying to mine (thought to be a trap by evil spirits).


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## Sir Brennen (Dec 3, 2008)

Delta said:


> Two types (see Wikipedia). (a) Semi-good house spirits. (b) Evil mine spirits. Linguistically, Kobold -> Cobalt, poisonous chemical in the ore you're trying to mine (thought to be a trap by evil spirits).



Ah... I thought it was evil mainframe spirits. (Kobold -> COBOL, Cumbersome, Overdone, Badly Organized Language )


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## pawsplay (Dec 3, 2008)

As a BECMIte, I tend to think of them as dog-like creatures, when I don't think the mythological version, which is basically an angry gnome.


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## el-remmen (Dec 4, 2008)

I like a mix of the 1e and 2e versions, and in Aquerra people sometimes call them Rat Dogs, and their god is also the god of rats.


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## Hussar (Dec 4, 2008)

I always loved in Baldur's Gate when kobolds sounded like angry terriers.


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## frankthedm (Dec 4, 2008)

I like the Moldvay kobold spearing the snake. I definitely prefer the 1E kobold over the chibi-dragonmen WotC polymorphed them into. Dog faces damnit.
_
D&D Arcade Game_ and_ Eye of the beholder_ kobolds follow...


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## justanobody (Dec 4, 2008)

I don't know if it would be fair use to put the images from Monstrous MAnual and Monster Manual II on here would it?

I think more along the lines of Monstrous Manual for AD&D (Tony DiTerlizzy[sp]), but never forgot the MMII before it.

They were very dog like with the muzzle in MMII from 1st edition.


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## Set (Dec 4, 2008)

I kind of miss the dog-people (in EverQuest they are portrayed as dog-ape-humanoids), but I've grown to love the dragon-blooded kobolds.

So I use both.

'Kobolds' are small hirsute primitive looking humanoids with some canine characteristics who can run on all fours for short distances, and they are skilled tunnelers and miners, and even, in rare cases, skilled craftsmen, being thought by some to be a degenerate dwarven offshoot race that make Derro look like Gray Elves by comparison. They combine traits of old myth, traits of EverQuest kobolds, traits of 1st edition kobolds and traits from Palladium RPG kobolds!

'Wyrmkin' are born from unfertilized dragon eggs, often a half-dozen to an egg (which, in the absence of male company, a she-dragon can lay several times a year), and end up fanatically serving their 'mother-goddess.' Many are abandoned, either deliberately (dragon wants a new home, but isn't going to ferry the little creeps to her new lair) or by mischance (dragon bit off something she couldn't chew and never came home...). They have weak characteristics reminiscent of their 'mother' (energy resistance equal to their HD, Green and Blacks can swim really well (not quite well enough to have a racial swim speed though!) and hold their breath like crocodiles, Whites can move unpenalized over snow and ice, etc.), and can breed true, with 'average' Wyrmkin being brownish scaled hybrids of other types, with no draconic traits at all (blended into normal Kobold stats, with no energy resistance or whatever).


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## The Green Adam (Dec 4, 2008)

*Went in doubt...Anime!*

In my D&D games, Kobolds are tough, small-ish wolf/dog creatures. "Kobolds are to Gnolls as Goblins are to Hobgoblins" you could say.
My theory is backed up by that all too awesome D&D based anime classic _Record of the Lodoss War_...

http://accel21.mettre-put-idata.over-blog.com/0/50/15/29/kobold.jpg

In pretty much every other medieval fantasy game I run (principal amoung them Ars Magica), I do indeed default to the classic faerie depiction of the Kobolds are Mine Spirit/Goblins.

BTW, the picture of the small faerie shown before is a Leprechaun from the Brian Froud/Alan Lee _Faeries_ book. So what do I win? : )

AD


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## pawsplay (Dec 4, 2008)

In Palladium they are more dwarf-like, a surly race with a violent culture, who manage to get on passably with many nonhumans. They are expert craftsmen.


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## Tetsubo (Dec 4, 2008)

How 2E saw them...


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## theskyfullofdust (Dec 4, 2008)

Ooh, I love that version. So cute, you just don't want to kill them


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## timbannock (Dec 4, 2008)

Tetsubo said:


> How 2E saw them...




I didn't recall them being that fugly.  Wow!

I agree that having two versions is cool; little dragonborn babies and little gnoll babies...and both are shifty and rabid!  Good times.


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## JeffB (Dec 4, 2008)

Tetsubo said:


> How 2E saw them...




Ick, is that from the Monstrous Compendium binders ?

I'm only fam with Tony D's version in the 2E Monstrous Manual

While it was a mistake according to Gary, I like the original scaly dog-like yippers, not sure WTF happened in 3E to turn them into mini dragons.


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## justanobody (Dec 4, 2008)

Tetsubo said:


> How 2E saw them...




How it saw them during the Compendium era prior to the Monstrous Manual.

If someone gives the ok I will get the MMII and Monstrous Manual images placed up here for people to see, but don't want to violate copyright on it if it would not be fair-use for the discussion to use the image in this thread.


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## Klaus (Dec 4, 2008)

Monstrous Manual 2e kobold:






Monster Manual 3e kobold:


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## justanobody (Dec 5, 2008)

@Klaus:

That site is all about being illegal, so you may want to remove the 2e kobold image, as it is from the AD&D Core Rules CD-ROM for that entire MM version used from the HTML books folder of it.


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## Hussar (Dec 5, 2008)

JustaNobody - might I point you in the direction of a Google search on the concept of "Fair Use"?  Editorial commentary on the differences in artistic representations is most certainly fair use.  If, on the other hand, we were trying to pass off the art as belonging to someone else, or trying to sell this art as if we could, then you would have a point.

But, as this is pretty easily covered by fair use, you don't have to worry.


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## justanobody (Dec 5, 2008)

Well I don't know too much about it other than to use it in proper context for research or acedemic reasons, and text is easier to handle, so I will hold off on the MMII image until I feel safer about it personally. I watched the Harry Potter case closely, but fair use is one BIG gray area if you pardon my bit of paranoia on it.


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## Qualidar (Dec 5, 2008)

justanobody said:


> How it saw them during the Compendium era prior to the Monstrous Manual.
> 
> If someone gives the ok I will get the MMII and Monstrous Manual images placed up here for people to see, but don't want to violate copyright on it if it would not be fair-use for the discussion to use the image in this thread.




I give you permission. Post the damn picture.


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## jdrakeh (Dec 5, 2008)

They're associated with goblins in Chainmail and OD&D (i.e., they're classified under the same heading), whilst early (non-TSR) RoleAids books describe them as little lizard men.


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## Vegepygmy (Dec 5, 2008)

JeffB said:


> While it was a mistake according to Gary, I like the original scaly dog-like yippers...



For those who haven't see it before...


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## Zustiur (Dec 5, 2008)

Vegepygmy said:


> For those who haven't see it before...




Wow so that's where Pool of Radiance got it from...

http://www.mbnet.fi/pelihalli/kuvat/kolumni/mike1/kobold.jpg
Funny, I never noticed the horns till now.


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## Plane Sailing (Dec 5, 2008)

Vegepygmy said:


> For those who haven't see it before...




I'm not sure where "dog like" came from, but that is the kobold I grew up with. Always pegged them as little reptilian critters, but always considered them as 'little demon things' more than anything else (scales, tails, horns etc).

It's how the original minifigs kobolds looked 

Cheers


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## diaglo (Dec 5, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> I'm not sure where "dog like" came from, but that is the kobold I grew up with. Always pegged them as little reptilian critters, but always considered them as 'little demon things' more than anything else (scales, tails, horns etc).
> 
> It's how the original minifigs kobolds looked
> 
> Cheers





check out the nose/ muzzle on the pic. very dog like.
another version of them can be found in the DDG (1980) under the nonhuman pantheon. a pic with their deity.


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## billd91 (Dec 5, 2008)

There's also a picture of a dragon wiping out a bunch of kobolds in the DMG, I believe in the section about playing monsters as PCs. I found that their look on that page was very dog-like as well.

Based on the dog-like look from 1e and the scaly look and draconic relation of 3e, I have them speaking draconic in yappy, barking voices and panting in my campaigns. Good fun.


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## Raven Crowking (Dec 5, 2008)

diaglo said:


> check out the nose/ muzzle on the pic. very dog like.
> another version of them can be found in the DDG (1980) under the nonhuman pantheon. a pic with their deity.




I believe the "dog-like" meme also came from Keep on the Borderlands, where they are described as such.


RC


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## Klaus (Dec 5, 2008)

It's odd that Kurtulmak's picture in the 1e Deities & Demigods was so different from his kobold worshippers:


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## Tewligan (Dec 5, 2008)

Klaus said:


> It's odd that Kurtulmak's picture in the 1e Deities & Demigods was so different from his kobold worshippers:



Yeah, but remember that Kurtulmak was drawn by Otus, who makes everything he draws both crazy and awesome.


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## frankthedm (Feb 7, 2009)

The Green Adam said:


> In my D&D games, Kobolds are tough, small-ish wolf/dog creatures. "Kobolds are to Gnolls as Goblins are to Hobgoblins" you could say.
> My theory is backed up by that all too awesome D&D based anime classic _Record of the Lodoss War_...
> 
> http://accel21.mettre-put-idata.over-blog.com/0/50/15/29/kobold.jpg



 I did the same thing for my D&D campaign, though my kobolds kept thier horns.


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## Plane Sailing (Feb 7, 2009)

diaglo said:


> check out the nose/ muzzle on the pic. very dog like.




perhaps... but completely overshadowed surely by the undoglike horns, undoglike ears, undoglike scaly skin 

They were little demon things, not dog things!


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## Celebrim (Feb 8, 2009)

> "I like a mix of the 1e and 2e versions, and in Aquerra people sometimes call them Rat Dogs, and their god is also the god of rats."




That's pretty much exactly the way I took them, only on Sartha the kobold patron deity (Kurtulmak) is the son of the 13 headed rat king over-deity Sormkortek.  Kobolds on Sartha are 'rat-people', not lizards.


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