# So, what's the deal with the Fiend-Blooded?



## Pazu (Jun 3, 2007)

_Heroes of Horror_ presented the Fiend-Blooded prestige class, a 10-level arcane casting class that seems to be aimed specifically at sorcerers.  However, as one of its prerequisites is 8 ranks in Knowledge (the planes), it would appear that a single-classed sorcerer can't enter this prestige class until 13th level, and thus can't take all 10 levels.  Is this intentional, or has this been addressed somewhere?  I notice that neither of the sample NPCs for this class has 8 ranks in Knowledge (the planes) either.


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## frankthedm (Jun 3, 2007)

Explain _"aimed specifically at sorcerers"_. 

Do you mean "_really powerful if a sorcerer could walk into the class_"? If thats the case, then it may be intentional the Sorc CAN'T get in until 13th..


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## Elemental (Jun 3, 2007)

Aimed in flavour terms--"you awaken your fiendish heritage, gaining improved stats, extra spells and resistances". There's nothing in there that would particularly make a sorcerer much more powerful than a wizard.


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## irdeggman (Jun 3, 2007)

I don't have access to the book.

Is is a spellcaster prerequisite or capable of casting spells?

Would a warlock qualify?

Sounds to me, from the description that they might.


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## rgard (Jun 3, 2007)

Pazu said:
			
		

> _Heroes of Horror_ presented the Fiend-Blooded prestige class, a 10-level arcane casting class that seems to be aimed specifically at sorcerers.  However, as one of its prerequisites is 8 ranks in Knowledge (the planes), it would appear that a single-classed sorcerer can't enter this prestige class until 13th level, and thus can't take all 10 levels.  Is this intentional, or has this been addressed somewhere?  I notice that neither of the sample NPCs for this class has 8 ranks in Knowledge (the planes) either.




I agree with you and Elemental in that it's flavor or flavour points it to a sorcerer taking the PrC.

To answer your question, you can still take all ten levels even if you take the PrC at 13th character level.  It's just that your last 3 levels of the PrC will be gained when you are Epic.

Also...

You can get around this by taking the Skill Knowledge feat (UA page 81) that lets you assign one cross class skill as a class skill.  Depending on the other requirements, you could then qualify earlier.

Thanks,
Rich


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## Pazu (Jun 3, 2007)

I'm not sure it's entirely based on flavor that it seems directed towards sorcerers--one of the prerequisites is the ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells without preparation, and one of the prerequisite feats also demands that you be a spontaneous arcane caster.  It also allows you to progress your familiar and add the fiendish template to it.  A bard could qualify easily enough, but the class doesn't really add anything special for the bard.

Plus, the first line under "Becoming a fiend-blooded" reads:  "Clearly, the sorcerer is the shortest path to becoming one of the fiend-blooded", which, by RAW, it's clearly not.

All these things lead me to believe there was a bit of a disconnect between the original intent of the designer and what was eventually printed on the page.


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## rgard (Jun 3, 2007)

Pazu said:
			
		

> I'm not sure it's entirely based on flavor that it seems directed towards sorcerers--one of the prerequisites is the ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells without preparation, and one of the prerequisite feats also demands that you be a spontaneous arcane caster.  It also allows you to progress your familiar and add the fiendish template to it.  A bard could qualify easily enough, but the class doesn't really add anything special for the bard.
> 
> Plus, the first line under "Becoming a fiend-blooded" reads:  "Clearly, the sorcerer is the shortest path to becoming one of the fiend-blooded", which, by RAW, it's clearly not.
> 
> All these things lead me to believe there was a bit of a disconnect between the original intent of the designer and what was eventually printed on the page.




Ok, thanks for providing more of the text.  Sounds like any of the spontaneous casters could qualify.  You could do this with a Warmage, Beguiler or Duskblade...unless there is more text that we are unaware exists.

You could review the FAQ, Sage Advice or Ask Wizards (or whatever they call it) to see if there is any errata for this.

Barring that, take the Skill Knowledge feat.

Thanks,
Rich


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## Pazu (Jun 3, 2007)

rgard said:
			
		

> Ok, thanks for providing more of the text.  Sounds like any of the spontaneous casters could qualify.  You could do this with a Warmage, Beguiler or Duskblade...unless there is more text that we are unaware exists.




Warmage and beguiler both lack Knowledge (the planes) as a class skill.  Duskblade could do it, but you'd drop to 1/2 BAB, which probably wouldn't be worth it.



> You could review the FAQ, Sage Advice or Ask Wizards (or whatever they call it) to see if there is any errata for this.




I dimly recall a thread that brought up this issue when _Heroes of Horror_ first came out, but I don't recall if there was any official resolution on the subject.  Maybe *Mouseferatu* can clarify, if he remembers.



> Barring that, take the Skill Knowledge feat.




Or have your sorcerer take another prestige class first, that gets Knowledge (the planes) as a class skill.  I think Elemental Savant, Nightmare Spinner, and Wild Soul are all relatively easy for a sorcerer to take prior to Fiend-Blooded.


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## Hammerhead (Jun 3, 2007)

The real story is that the designers forgot that Knowledge (the planes) isn't a sorcerer class skill. Also, the Education feat (Eberron, FR) gives you all knowledge skills as class skills...much better than Skill Training. 

Note that the sample character is able to qualify at 6th level despite being a single classed sorcerer without any of the above mentioned feats.


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## Arkhandus (Jun 3, 2007)

And anyway, don't forget that it's easy to multiclass 1 or 2 levels into something with that as a class skill, and pour skill points into it.  1 or 2 levels of Bard, Wizard, Loremaster, or Dragon Disciple (that's right, DDs got all knowledge skills) will do ya.  The (non-psionic) feat from Expanded Psionics Handbook that gives you 5 extra skill points once could also help with that at the level you make Kn(planes) a class skill.


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## rgard (Jun 3, 2007)

Pazu said:
			
		

> Warmage and beguiler both lack Knowledge (the planes) as a class skill.  Duskblade could do it, but you'd drop to 1/2 BAB, which probably wouldn't be worth it.




I was just pointing out that the sorcerer isn't the only class that can qualify for this.

Sorry we weren't able to help you with this.

Thanks,
Rich


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## Pazu (Jun 4, 2007)

Hammerhead said:
			
		

> The real story is that the designers forgot that Knowledge (the planes) isn't a sorcerer class skill.




Did one of the authors actually come out and say this?  It sounds dimly familiar, like someone might have said, "Oh yeah, it was supposed to be 4 ranks" or something like that.



> Note that the sample character is able to qualify at 6th level despite being a single classed sorcerer without any of the above mentioned feats.




Neither sample character qualifies for the class, as I noted above.


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## Dagredhel (Jun 4, 2007)

I agree that it looks more like a typo than an intentional hurdle.  It should probably be 4 ranks, as Pazu suggests.

But as already pointed out, the *Education* feat overcomes the problem, staying within the RAW.  This works for the already mentioned spontaneous casters, as well as the *Dread Necromancer*.

For a human, the *Human Paragon* class (UA) would also do nicely, adding the necessary skill, a bonus feat, and +2 CHA among other benefits at the cost of a level of spellcasting.


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## Drowbane (Jun 4, 2007)

Pazu said:
			
		

> _Heroes of Horror_ presented the Fiend-Blooded prestige class, a 10-level arcane casting class that seems to be aimed specifically at sorcerers.  However, as one of its prerequisites is 8 ranks in Knowledge (the planes), it would appear that a single-classed sorcerer can't enter this prestige class until 13th level, and thus can't take all 10 levels.  Is this intentional, or has this been addressed somewhere?  I notice that neither of the sample NPCs for this class has 8 ranks in Knowledge (the planes) either.




Back when HoH was coming out and I saw the description of the Fiend-Blooded PrC I thought "holy crap! finally a cool Warlock-related PrC!!!"... then I saw it in my (at the time) FLGS and well... "Or not.  Crap!".


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## Pazu (Jun 4, 2007)

Dagredhel said:
			
		

> I agree that it looks more like a typo than an intentional hurdle.  It should probably be 4 ranks, as Pazu suggests.
> 
> But as already pointed out, the *Education* feat overcomes the problem, staying within the RAW.  This works for the already mentioned spontaneous casters, as well as the *Dread Necromancer*.
> 
> For a human, the *Human Paragon* class (UA) would also do nicely, adding the necessary skill, a bonus feat, and +2 CHA among other benefits at the cost of a level of spellcasting.




You could also have a sorcerer with the Domain Access (Knowledge domain) alternative class feature from _Complete Champion_:  the loss of one spell known from each level would be partially offset by the bonus spells that the fiend-blooded grants you.


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## starwed (Jun 4, 2007)

This is kind of amusing.  There's a psionic prestige class which has _exactly_ the same mistake: it's clearly intended for wilders, the sample PC is a wilder, and yet it requires 8 ranks in Knowledge(The Planes), which is a cross-class skill for wilders.


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## amethal (Jun 4, 2007)

Its another example of crap design. It drives me mad. The sample NPCs are pretty much a waste of space, but you'd think having to actually design a character would at least point out flaws like this.

My prefered option is to take the Apprentice (Spellcaster) feat fom DMG 2.

It allows you to treat one knowledge skill (and use magic device) as class skills, plus gives a few other goodies.


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## Pazu (Jun 4, 2007)

amethal said:
			
		

> My prefered option is to take the Apprentice (Spellcaster) feat fom DMG 2.
> 
> It allows you to treat one knowledge skill (and use magic device) as class skills, plus gives a few other goodies.




That sounds like an interesting option.  What are the details of this feat?


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## Pazu (Jun 4, 2007)

Having done some digging at the Wizards boards, I notice that someone brought up this exact issue in the _Heroes of Horror_ errata thread back in 2005.  Unfortunately, no "official" answer to this problem was given (although *Mouseferatu* very helpfully supplied a number of other clarifications).

*rgard*, I understand what you're saying, but that wasn't really my original point.  As has been pointed out, it's relatively trivial to kludge a sorcerer (or any other spontaneous arcane caster) into this class--heck, as I said in my OP, a vanilla bard can take it without _any_ additional feats or PrCs!

I think *Hammerhead* and *dagredhel* have it right, honestly.  Hopefully, with the return of "official" errata, this question can be resolved at some point.


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## Hammerhead (Jun 4, 2007)

Although there's actually a legal fix that doesn't involve taking a worthless feat or another prestige class to accomplish this. You take the Planar Substitution level at 5th for Sorcerers, which will give Knowledge: The Planes as a class skill. You lose a 2nd level spell known, but gain the ability to convert half elemental damage on spells into force damage.


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## rgard (Jun 4, 2007)

Pazu said:
			
		

> *rgard*, I understand what you're saying, but that wasn't really my original point.  As has been pointed out, it's relatively trivial to kludge a sorcerer (or any other spontaneous arcane caster) into this class--heck, as I said in my OP, a vanilla bard can take it without _any_ additional feats or PrCs!




All you need to do then is reduce the Knowledge Planes ranks requirement.  Nobody has posted that there is official errata for this, so just do it yourself.

You can also ask Wizards or use the Sage advice tool there.  Maybe you'll get your answer that way if you don't want to HR it.

Thanks,
Rich


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## Pazu (Jun 4, 2007)

rgard said:
			
		

> You can also ask Wizards or use the Sage advice tool there.  Maybe you'll get your answer that way if you don't want to HR it.




I have just done so, and I promise to share any response they give me with the folks here.   (We'll see if they bother to answer.)

Mostly, like I said, for me it isn't an issue with houseruling or taking feats or prestige classes.  It was really just a question of whether this was an editing error, or intentional design.


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## rgard (Jun 5, 2007)

Pazu said:
			
		

> I have just done so, and I promise to share any response they give me with the folks here.   (We'll see if they bother to answer.)
> 
> Mostly, like I said, for me it isn't an issue with houseruling or taking feats or prestige classes.  It was really just a question of whether this was an editing error, or intentional design.




I'll ask as well tomorrow.  I think they work on a critical mass method...the more the same question is asked the better the chance they answer it.  I asked about whether the Duskblade could use Arcane Channeling with touch spells from other classes, others asked as well and eventually they posted a response.

Thanks,
Rich


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## Dagredhel (Jun 8, 2007)

amethal said:
			
		

> My prefered option is to take the Apprentice (Spellcaster) feat fom DMG 2.
> 
> It allows you to treat one knowledge skill (and use magic device) as class skills, plus gives a few other goodies.




What are the "other goodies"?


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## Elemental (Jun 9, 2007)

starwed said:
			
		

> This is kind of amusing.  There's a psionic prestige class which has _exactly_ the same mistake: it's clearly intended for wilders, the sample PC is a wilder, and yet it requires 8 ranks in Knowledge(The Planes), which is a cross-class skill for wilders.




Or the Sacred Exorcist in 3.0, when clerics didn't have Knowledge: The Planes by default.


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