# GAME OF THRONES #6:-A Golden Crown ACT 6 Chapter 1-2011



## Truth Seeker (May 23, 2011)

*A Golden Crown* 

While King Robert goes hunting, Ned has to deal with new problems. At the Eyrie, Tyrion faces judgment for his crimes. In Vaes Dothrak, Viserys finally gets his payment for giving his sister's hand in marriage to Khal Drogo.


'Fire cannot kill a Dragon'​


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## Remus Lupin (May 23, 2011)

Alas poor Viserys, we hardly knew ye!

I was curious though, how precisely would having molten gold poured over your head kill you? In my reading of the novel, I had always assumed it had encased his face or gone down his throat or something, but that didn't seem to be the case here. Would it just be shock? Inquiring minds want to know!


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## Starman (May 23, 2011)

Remus Lupin said:


> Alas poor Viserys, we hardly knew ye!
> 
> I was curious though, how precisely would having molten gold poured over your head kill you? In my reading of the novel, I had always assumed it had encased his face or gone down his throat or something, but that didn't seem to be the case here. Would it just be shock? Inquiring minds want to know!




I had the same thought you did when I read the book and my impression here that it was shock. The melting point of gold is nearly 2000 degrees F, so it's not hard imagining that bringing on some shock. I'm more curious how they got the fire that hot.

Great episode, though. I loved the fight at the Eyrie. "But he did."


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## Kzach (May 23, 2011)

Starman said:


> I had the same thought you did when I read the book and my impression here that it was shock. The melting point of gold is nearly 2000 degrees F, so it's not hard imagining that bringing on some shock. I'm more curious how they got the fire that hot.



2,000 sounds like a lot but when you consider that just a regular oven with nothing but a couple of small gas flames can get up to around 600 F, an open fire with an already smoking hot cauldron could probably get pretty high.

As for his death... I can't believe anyone could think someone could survive having molten gold poured over your head, regardless of whether or not it cut off airways. It would've cooked his brain, for one thing.


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## Remus Lupin (May 23, 2011)

Well, I don't think he could have survived, I'm just curious about the proximate cause of death. "Cooked the brain" works for me.


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## Krug (May 23, 2011)

Mmm... gilded brains..


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## Kaodi (May 23, 2011)

There is no way in the real world they could have melted gold like that. 

From Wikipedia:



> When first erupted from a volcanic vent, lava is a liquid at temperatures from 700 °C to 1,200 °C (1,300 °F to 2,200 °F).


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## Remus Lupin (May 23, 2011)

I have to admit, in spite of myself, I felt some compassion for Viserys there at the end. i felt it in the novel too, when he says, "That's all I wanted, what was promised" it's hard not to feel a sense of pity for him.

In other news, Tyrion is still awesome, and isn't there some big enormous Wall of Ice in this story? When will we be seeing that again?


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## Starman (May 23, 2011)

Remus Lupin said:


> In other news, Tyrion is still awesome, and isn't there some big enormous Wall of Ice in this story? When will we be seeing that again?




And aren't there some dire wolves or something? I was surprised to see Bran's rescue go down with nary a sign of them.


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## LightPhoenix (May 23, 2011)

Remus Lupin said:


> ...isn't there some big enormous Wall of Ice in this story? When will we be seeing that again?




While it would be cool to get some more of Jon's growing pains at the Wall, his arc in the first book is (mostly) superfluous, especially compared to everything else going on.  It isn't until _Clash of Kings_ where we start to see his story become more linked to the rest.  It's not that it's a bad story, or boring to read/watch, but with such limited time to tell the main story, it's the obvious place to skimp.

Personally, as I see it there are only four more important scenes that really need to be shown: 



Spoiler



Jon becoming the Lord Commander's squire, Jon attacking Allister, Jon fighting the wights, and possibly Jon's desertion


.  Of those, the first three are probably in the same episode, since they happen in relatively quick succession.


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## Remus Lupin (May 23, 2011)

Actually the more I think about it, it's the absence of the Dire Wolves that is the real travesty thus far. Particularly since the relationships between Bran and Summer and Jon and Ghost are so central to their subsequent stories. One could probably live without seeing too much more of Robb's wolf, but the other two wolves, and particularly Summer, are crucial.


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## Starman (May 24, 2011)

Remus Lupin said:


> Actually the more I think about it, it's the absence of the Dire Wolves that is the real travesty thus far. Particularly since the relationships between Bran and Summer and Jon and Ghost are so central to their subsequent stories. One could probably live without seeing too much more of Robb's wolf, but the other two wolves, and particularly Summer, are crucial.




Yup. Their absence has baffled me.


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## LightPhoenix (May 24, 2011)

That matte (or whatever) of the Vale behind Tyrion in the cell looked terrible.  I've never been a huge fan of the concept of the Aerie (not really practical, I think), and that didn't help sell it.

I liked the scene with Arya and Syrio, since it will drive home 



Spoiler



Syrio toying with Arya versus showing his true skill


. 

Loved Bronn's shrugs at Tyrion.  I wish it were telegraphed more that Tyrion pretty much planned the whole thing.  I don't suppose it matters though, as long as it shows Tyrion's intelligence.  Also, I would have liked to see more of Catelyn's face-palming at Tyrion playing her sister so well.  Catelyn isn't exactly stupid, and it would have been nice to acknowledge that.

Ending on Dany was a weak way to end the episode.  The scene itself has too much resolution to move forward into the next episode.  It would have been a great penultimate scene though.  Great acting all around, just not where I would have ended it.

The scene where Robert hits Cersei is one of my favorite scenes in the entire book.  Not so much the actual hitting, but afterward when he says it wasn't a kingly thing to do.  Every time I read that part of the book, my immediate thought is "No, but it's a _human_ thing to do."  It says more about Robert's state of mind than all his grumbling - he's caged, he's lashing out, he truly hates the Lannisters and takes it out on Cersei.  Robert isn't truly a king, he's a warrior that sacrificed himself so the kingdom would survive, and now he feels dead inside.  So he goes hunting, trying to recapture that feeling of being himself.



Kaodi said:


> There is no way in the real world they could have melted gold like that.




(Science-y nerd stuff, feel free to ignore)

Yes, pure gold has a melting point in the range of 1000 °C (1064 according to Wikipedia).  However, those could have been some sort of gold alloy.  Something like tin or zinc could lower the melting point significantly, possibly into the campfire range depending on purity.  So it's possible Drogo just liked cheap stuff.  

(Or more likely, GRRM doesn't study metallurgy).


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## jonesy (May 24, 2011)

The Romans used melted gold to kill people, but they poured it down your throat so your internal organs burst.



LightPhoenix said:


> Catelyn isn't exactly stupid, and it would have been nice to acknowledge that.



Really? That's totally not the image I got reading the books. Bran was right. She has her family words inside out.


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## Raunalyn (May 24, 2011)

Personally, this was my favorite episode to date. A lot of action, and Tyrion's confession had me in stitches. I even thought that the girl playing Daenarys, whom I've been ambivalent to, did a pretty good job here. Ned's epiphany was well played, and even though she didn't get much screen time, I still think that the actress they got to play Arya is phenomenal.

Knowing what's coming in the next few episodes, I'm curious how it will translate to screen...especially the closing scene of book one.


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## Krug (May 24, 2011)

Starman said:


> And aren't there some dire wolves or something? I was surprised to see Bran's rescue go down with nary a sign of them.




I think there's a little too much of the wolves saving the day. They've already done so 2-3x; for Bran, Arya and Sam. I was slightly disappointed they weren't in play this ep but I can see why they would be excluded.


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## jonesy (May 24, 2011)

Krug said:


> I think there's a little too much of the wolves saving the day. They've already done so 2-3x; for Bran, Arya and Sam. I was slightly disappointed they weren't in play this ep but I can see why they would be excluded.



But wouldn't that be because they've been shown so little? If they were in every scene that they appeared in in the books they wouldn't seem that, umm, saviourish. But now that those are their primary scenes it's like that's all they do.


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## Starman (May 24, 2011)

jonesy said:


> But wouldn't that be because they've been shown so little? If they were in every scene that they appeared in in the books they wouldn't seem that, umm, saviourish. But now that those are their primary scenes it's like that's all they do.




I agree. Just having them around helps set the stage for things to come. As it is, I wonder how many viewers who have not read the books even remember that they are around. So far the show has made them seem like bit characters even though they are integral to the Stark children's characters.


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## Kzach (May 24, 2011)

Starman said:


> I agree. Just having them around helps set the stage for things to come. As it is, I wonder how many viewers who have not read the books even remember that they are around. So far the show has made them seem like bit characters even though they are integral to the Stark children's characters.




Are they?

Honestly, I never got that impression from the books. In fact, I was constantly aware of their distinct absence from the story. After reading Feast of Crows I remember asking myself, "Was there ever a point to them getting those damn wolves?"

My personal answer to that has to do with magic and the gods of the world being intricately linked to the bloodlines of houses. The wolves, for me, were a gift from the old gods that also served as an omen of things to come; they were meant to be protectors of the House of Stark as magic was coming back into the world. The same goes for House Targaryen and the dragons.


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## Remus Lupin (May 24, 2011)

Well, wait, A Feast for Crows is a bad example, the only Stark PoV character is Arya, and she lost Nymeria on the Neck. The only two remaining wolves are Ghost and Summer (since [sblock]Robb's wolf was killed with him[/sblock], Sansa's was killed on the Neck, Nymeria is lost, and Rikkon's is God-Knows-Where with Rikkon). And those two wolves, particularly Summer, are going to be very important going forward in the story.

After all, Summer becomes Bran's way of interacting with the larger world and clearly Jon has some warg-like tendencies as well. Actually I think all of the Starks do, given Arya's occasional wolf dreams. My working hypothesis with Martin is that missing characters will inevitably come back into the picture, so I figure that there will be an Arya-Nymeria reunion at some point in the story.

But the wolves also work symbolicly for the characters. [sblock]Sansa's wolf dies and she becomes disconnected from the family. Arya's wolf is lost, and she's lost. When Robb puts aside his wolf because Jayne doesn't like him, that sets him up for his ultimate destruction, and Rikkon's wolf becomes wild just as he does (though, really, why give a 3-year-old a wolf anyway without someone to help train him!)[/sblock].

As for the show, I think that they probably have a very limited "wolf budget" and are using it sparingly. It'll be more difficult as the show goes on, since right now the wolves are puppies and still the size of normal wolves. When the grow up they become, what, pony-sized? At that point, it becomes an issue for their CGI budget.


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## jonesy (May 24, 2011)

I think it might be a good idea to avoid spoilers past what has already happened in the tv show.

As in >>  [sblock  /sblock] that stuff.


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## Remus Lupin (May 24, 2011)

Ok, sblocked for your protection. But are there a lot of people reading this thread who aren't already spoiled? If so, my apologies.


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## jonesy (May 24, 2011)

Remus Lupin said:


> Ok, sblocked for your protection. But are there a lot of people reading this thread who aren't already spoiled? If so, my apologies.



I don't know. It only just occurred to me.


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## Fast Learner (May 25, 2011)

Remus Lupin said:


> Ok, sblocked for your protection. But are there a lot of people reading this thread who aren't already spoiled?




In the show-related threads prior to its start there were a lot of posts with people saying they hadn't read the books but were looking forward to the series, so it's a safe bet that there are.


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## Kzach (May 25, 2011)

Remus Lupin said:


> [sblock]Well, wait, A Feast for Crows is a bad example, the only Stark PoV character is Arya, and she lost Nymeria on the Neck. The only two remaining wolves are Ghost and Summer (since Robb's wolf was killed with him, Sansa's was killed on the Neck, Nymeria is lost, and Rikkon's is God-Knows-Where with Rikkon). And those two wolves, particularly Summer, are going to be very important going forward in the story.[/sblock]




Sigh, an sblock conversation... this was why I created the spoiler thread that has since died and fallen into oblivion. Oh well.

[sblock]My point in using FoC as a reference was simply to state that I'd read through the entire series and after finishing the last book, was questioning just how involved the wolves had been throughout the entire series. They simply don't make that big of an impact so I'm surprised that people are expecting them to be featured more than they have been, since from my perspective, they've been featured just about as much as they were in the books.[/sblock]


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## Klaus (May 25, 2011)

I hear that the wolf/dogs are hard to handle, so their appearances are being diminished.


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## LightPhoenix (May 25, 2011)

jonesy said:


> Really? That's totally not the image I got reading the books. Bran was right. She has her family words inside out.




It's fashionable to hate on Catelyn, because she's rash and emotional and cares more about her family than the Game.  None of that means she isn't intelligent.  It's a little tough to go into specific examples when we're so early into the show, but I'll try. 

She susses out why it has to be her to go to King's Landing (despite Bran's petulance).  It even works in her favor, when Littlefinger finds her and hides her.

She acts rashly in grabbing Tyrion, but she analyzes the situation, uses honor to win over her people, and tricks anyone going to the Lannisters.  It wasn't simply strength of arms.

In the books, while Tyrion is enacting his plan, Catelyn pretty much immediately understands what his plan is.  The only reason she can't stop it is because Lysa is crazy and she holds no power there.


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## RangerWickett (May 25, 2011)

For the record, I've never read the books, so I do much appreciate people hiding their spoilers. And I don't have a problem remembering that the kids all have wolves.

Of course, I should probably just avoid internet discussions of the show.


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## Joker (May 25, 2011)

I am absolutely loving all the detail in the story.  Even though I've never read the books I can tell there's a great amount of history in the setting.

But it's a rare thing to see a series have such detail in the sets.  All the little things make it an immersive experience for me.

On a side note, is it me or does the Lannister kid look weird?


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## Remus Lupin (May 25, 2011)

The Lannister kid IS weird!


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## NewJeffCT (May 26, 2011)

Remus Lupin said:


> I have to admit, in spite of myself, I felt some compassion for Viserys there at the end. i felt it in the novel too, when he says, "That's all I wanted, what was promised" it's hard not to feel a sense of pity for him.
> 
> In other news, Tyrion is still awesome, and isn't there some big enormous Wall of Ice in this story? When will we be seeing that again?




In the books, he is about as irredeemable as can be - I'd use a lot stronger language for him if it were allowed.  Major-League @#!%  

It was pretty clear in the books that he completely misunderstood the Dothraki culture and became a pathetic character, not even worthy of pity, only mockery.

I think he is there only to show how much Dany matures and grows - she feared him her whole life until after she was wed to Khal Drogo.


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## Kzach (May 26, 2011)

Joker said:


> On a side note, is it me or does the Lannister kid look weird?




All of them are... they're inbreds remember.


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## Krug (May 26, 2011)

NewJeffCT said:


> In the books, he is about as irredeemable as can be - I'd use a lot stronger language for him if it were allowed.  Major-League @#!%
> 
> It was pretty clear in the books that he completely misunderstood the Dothraki culture and became a pathetic character, not even worthy of pity, only mockery.
> 
> I think he is there only to show how much Dany matures and grows - she feared him her whole life until after she was wed to Khal Drogo.




Actually he was far more sympathetic in the book. He was the one that taught Dany about her culture, and she felt a great debt to him, rather than just fear. Just before his death, she even said that she would give him the dragon eggs if he asked for them.


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## Fast Learner (May 26, 2011)

Krug said:


> Actually he was far more sympathetic in the book. He was the one that taught Dany about her culture, and she felt a great debt to him, rather than just fear. Just before his death, she even said that she would give him the dragon eggs if he asked for them.




Wow, I found him far _less_ sympathetic in the book, selfish and cruel far beyond how he was depicted on TV. Danny's saying that she would have given him the eggs showed how much manipulative influence he still had over her despite her finally breaking free, an issue for most abused women toward their abusers, in my experience.


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## NewJeffCT (May 26, 2011)

Krug said:


> Actually he was far more sympathetic in the book. He was the one that taught Dany about her culture, and she felt a great debt to him, rather than just fear. Just before his death, she even said that she would give him the dragon eggs if he asked for them.




I'm in the midst of re-reading the book now and just read that section the other day.  I'll have to agree with [MENTION=649]Fast Learner[/MENTION] on this one.


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## Remus Lupin (May 26, 2011)

Book Viserys suffers from being seen only through Dany's eyes, whereas TV Viserys has a chance to develop some countours apart from how Dany perceives him. Those contours make him (marginally) more sympathetic to me than he comes across in the book. 

It also helps that the actor portraying him does a good job of evoking something more than "I'm a complete monster whom you should absolutely hate and cheer when I die" from the character.


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## NewJeffCT (May 26, 2011)

Remus Lupin said:


> Book Viserys suffers from being seen only through Dany's eyes, whereas TV Viserys has a chance to develop some countours apart from how Dany perceives him. Those contours make him (marginally) more sympathetic to me than he comes across in the book.
> 
> It also helps that the actor portraying him does a good job of evoking something more than "I'm a complete monster whom you should absolutely hate and cheer when I die" from the character.




good point on book Viserys

Also agree on Tyrion - he's definitely one of my favorite characters in the books.


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## Krug (May 26, 2011)

Fast Learner said:


> Wow, I found him far _less_ sympathetic in the book, selfish and cruel far beyond how he was depicted on TV. Danny's saying that she would have given him the eggs showed how much manipulative influence he still had over her despite her finally breaking free, an issue for most abused women toward their abusers, in my experience.




Well IMO she had broken free quite a while ago. She had found satisfaction with Drago, becoming her own woman, and Viserys had already been humiliated earlier. By the time Vis got his golden helmet she just had sympathy for him; he was the equivalent of a fool in the eyes of the horsemen, and only he couldn't see that.


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## Fast Learner (May 26, 2011)

Remus Lupin said:


> Book Viserys suffers from being seen only through Dany's eyes, whereas TV Viserys has a chance to develop some countours apart from how Dany perceives him. Those contours make him (marginally) more sympathetic to me than he comes across in the book.




Dany's eyes, though, are the eyes of an abused person in a codependent relationship. If anything, he's probably nastier than we see him through her.

TV Viserys is written by somebody else. I agree that TV Viserys is more sympathetic, but I don't agree that it's because we're getting a more objective view: they're not the same character, really, as far as I see.


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## NewJeffCT (May 26, 2011)

Krug said:


> Well IMO she had broken free quite a while ago. She had found satisfaction with Drago, becoming her own woman, and Viserys had already been humiliated earlier. By the time Vis got his golden helmet she just had sympathy for him; he was the equivalent of a fool in the eyes of the horsemen, and only he couldn't see that.




sympathy, or did she pity him for the pathetic loser that he was?


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## Remus Lupin (May 26, 2011)

At the last instant, Martin writes that his pathetic plea of "that's all I wanted, what was promised" almost broke her heart (I'm paraphrasing, clearly). I think in the end she pitied him, but realized that there was nothing she could do to save him (nor wanted to, really).


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