# Dragonhide armor



## dama (Dec 24, 2004)

The attributes for dragonhide armor are pretty vague.  I see no reason armor made from a dragon's hide has to be heavy/plate.  I don't see how dragon hide could be clothing (AC 0), though.  

I am looking for guidelines for all hides, not just dragons.  But, taking a shot in the dark i get a nightmare;  leather armor is AC 2, Adult black dragon has a natural AC of +18.  2e DnD says armor made from a dragon's hide is 4 less AC than when the dragon was wearing it.  That would make black dragon leather armor AC 16 or at least ac 14 (2+18-4 or 18-4).  That is too much.  I think a dragon's hide should also provide some resistance to the same kind of damage as it's breath.  A wyrmling white dragon (the least of the dragons) has a natural AC of +2.  I think armor made from a great wyrm's hide would be better than from a wyrmling's hide.


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## kmdietri (Dec 24, 2004)

I beleive now in 3.5 you can make certain types of dragon hide armour based on the size of the dragon you are taking the hide from.

I don't remember the sizes but for really big dragons you can make a suite of full plate dragon scale armour.  which basically functions like non-magical full plate.  

I believe the dragon scale gives special properties like reduced armour chekc penalties or increased max dex but I'm not possitive on that.

Any other creature I would probably just say the armour is hide armour...

Hope this helps.


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## Pickaxe (Dec 24, 2004)

Dragonhide allows you to make masterwork hide armor, shields, banded, half-plate, breastplate, or full plate, all dependent on the size of the dragon. The only specific benefit described is that druids can wear all these armors without penalty (apart from non-proficiency). I too would expect that dragonhide would confer some kind of energy resistance or other benefit, but I haven't seen any such benefits described.

--Axe


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## kmdietri (Dec 24, 2004)

> DRAGONHIDE Armorsmiths can work with the hides of dragons to produce armor or shields of masterwork quality.




That's from the SRD I guess it's Masterwork armour of whatever size the dragon would yield.

There are a lot more details in Draconomicon


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## dcollins (Dec 24, 2004)

Here's the full specification from the 3.5 SRD on "Special Materials". Basically the same as from 3.0:



> *Dragonhide:* Armorsmiths can work with the hides of dragons to produce armor or shields of masterwork quality. One dragon produces enough hide for a single suit of masterwork hide armor for a creature one size category smaller than the dragon. By selecting only choice scales and bits of hide, an armorsmith can produce one suit of masterwork banded mail for a creature two sizes smaller, one suit of masterwork half-plate for a creature three sizes smaller, or one masterwork breastplate or suit of full plate for a creature four sizes smaller. In each case, enough hide is available to produce a small or large masterwork shield in addition to the armor, provided that the dragon is Large or larger.
> 
> Because dragonhide armor isn’t made of metal, druids can wear it without penalty.
> 
> ...




So yes, masterwork hide armor, banded mail, half-plate, breastplate, or full plate (with shields) are possibilities.


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## VoiceOfReason? (Dec 24, 2004)

no scale mail?


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## Bryan898 (Dec 24, 2004)

IIRC dragonarmor in 2nd edition was the thing to have.  I think it's AC was based off the age category of the dragon you took it from and it bestowed resistance did it not?  Now it's pretty worthless, simply expensive cool looking armor, unless you're a druid.  Funny that those scales that provide a dragon a +40 natural armor bonus aren't any stronger than steel when used by PCs.


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## kigmatzomat (Dec 24, 2004)

IMO, the scales that give the gargantuan dragon +40 are too large & too thick to be crafted into medium humanoid armor.  You end up using the supple thinner sections.

The armor does have one advantage for enchantment;  the  "double masterwork cost" applys as material components towards enchantment.  IIRC (no books handy) fullplate is 1500, MW full plate is 2000 so dragonhide fullplate is 4000gp.  Since you need half the final item's value for enchantment, that's equivalent to 8,000gp so appropriate for +4 armor or some of the non-plus additions in 3.5.


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## dcollins (Dec 24, 2004)

kigmatzomat said:
			
		

> The armor does have one advantage for enchantment;  the  "double masterwork cost" applys as material components towards enchantment.




No, it doesn't. You're not going to find any core rule that says such a thing -- it's a "special material" like mithril, adamantine, etc., with it's own properties and own cost.

However, I personally use the "Variant: Power Components" and in so doing, allow dragonhide to fill in for the XP needed for the appropriate energy-resistance power.


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## Sejs (Dec 24, 2004)

Bryan898 said:
			
		

> Funny that those scales that provide a dragon a +40 natural armor bonus aren't any stronger than steel when used by PCs.



  Heh, well, it's not just the scales that provide the natural armor bonus.  The scales, the hide, the tough connective tissue, the flexibility of the skeleton, etc, etc, etc.  It's the total package that provides the full natural armor bonus.  That the scales/hide alone can be worked to provide the same protection as steel speaks worlds for how tough just those component parts are.  Most creatures have scales that are about as tough as a fingernail; dragons are a bit better off.   




			
				dcollins said:
			
		

> However, I personally use the "Variant: Power Components" and in so doing, allow dragonhide to fill in for the XP needed for the appropriate energy-resistance power.



 That's how I handle it as well.  The hide retains an affinity for the appropriate energy resistance, but needs to be enchanted in order to express that affinity.


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## Nail (Dec 24, 2004)

The core rules for dragonhide armor are pretty disappointing....for everyone except a druid interested in making _wild_ full plate.

(Not that I've been harping on that lately or anything.)


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## dama (Dec 24, 2004)

*You guys are all talking heavy armor as the only option from dragonhide. * Straight out of The 3e Monster Manual: "Dragonhide: Armorsmiths can work with the hides of dragons to produce armor or shields of masterwork quality. One dragon produces enough hide for a single suit of masterwork hide armor for a creature one size category smaller than the dragon. By selecting only choice scales and bits of hide, an armorsmith can produce one suit of masterwork banded mail for a creature two sizes smaller, one suit of masterwork half-plate for a creature three sizes smaller, or one masterwork breastplate or suit of full plate for a creature four sizes smaller. In each case, enough hide is available to produce a small or large masterwork shield in addition to the armor, provided that the dragon is Large or larger.

Because dragonhide armor isn’t made of metal, druids can wear it without penalty.

Dragonhide armor costs double what masterwork armor of that type ordinarily costs, but it takes no longer to make than ordinary armor of that type.

Dragonhide has 10 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 10."

There's got to be a way to make light & medium armor, not just heavy armor from ANY hide or skin that is thick enough or an ample enough supply.  Alligator skin (porobably the closest thing to a dragon in the real world) is used to make boots.  That's thin, supple leather!   There's a huge, untapped market for dragonhide light & medium armor!  I know it!!  What I don't know is what the attributes would be.  

Ok, for my next trick, i will pull sets of dragonhide armor out of my... hat.  Dragons in the MM are divided into 12 ages.  Each age allows for a corresponding +to natural AC inherent in the armor.  This is NOT automatic.  The crafter has to roll IN ADDITION to determining if the armor is masterwork or not.  20 on a 20 sider works for me.  A wyrmlings maximum armor bonus would be +1 in addition to the armor type; leather is AC2, full plate is AC 8.  That's without enhancements, but pricing & rarity would treat the armor as if it were enhanced.  So, a set of wyrmling dragonhide LEATHER armor would be AC 3, full plate made from wyrmling dragonhide (we are talking 16 wyrmlings for a medium sized set of armor) would be AC 9.  UNENHANCED full plate made from the hide of a great wyrm would be AC 20.  There's only enough "suitable"  no pun intended   dragon hide on a colossal sized dragon for 1 set of medium sized full plate armor.

For those of you that say that's too uber & everybody will want one, i say this.  16 wyrmlings to make one set of medium sized masterwork armor, 1 out of 20 sets of masterwork dragonhide armor has the additional natural AC bonus.  All things being equal, the party has to kill 20 great wyrms to get one set of AC 20 full plate.  Breastplate is supposed to be the same amout of dragonhide to make, but you can make twice as many sets of banded suits from the same amount of dragonhide.  That's crazy.  Full plate is AC 8, chain shirt is AC 4, leather is AC 2.  If you can make 1 set of full plate, you can make 2 sets of AC 4 armor or 4 sets of AC 2 armor or 8 sets of AC 0 armor.

I also think dragonhide should have resistance to the breath of that kind of dragon.  Going back to the 12 ages, I say 3% resistance for each age.  The worked dragonhide from a white dragon wyrmling would have 3% resistance to  white dragon breath.  The worked hide from a gold dragon great wyrm would have 36% resistance to gold dragon breath.

Sound fair?


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## Sejs (Dec 24, 2004)

> You guys are all talking heavy armor as the only option from dragonhide.



 Not at all.  We're talking about medium and heavy armor as the only options.  Oh, and shields.  Can't forget the shields.    

As for making light armor from dragonhide? Er... no.  If you make a leather-type armor from a creature with a thick, armored hide, such as a rhino (or a dragon) you end up with hide armor.  As for the alligator skin comparison, personally I would see 'gator skin being about on par with the skin of a hatchling dragon.  By the time they get big enough to make a man-sized suit of armor out of, their hide has become substantially thicker.


As for the rest.. erm, no thanks.  Not my bag.  If it works for you in your game, cool, more power to ya.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Dec 24, 2004)

Nail said:
			
		

> The core rules for dragonhide armor are pretty disappointing....for everyone except a druid interested in making _wild_ full plate.
> 
> (Not that I've been harping on that lately or anything.)



 Agreed. By the Core books, Dragonhide is essentially crap. Now, Dragoncraft items from the Draconomicon are another story all together...


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## Wolf72 (Dec 24, 2004)

I've attached some house rules that I _think_ should work/be balanced ... don't know, as I'm more of an armchair player/dm right now ... but I think they came out okay.

*wolf crosses paws that the table comes out okay*


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## dcollins (Dec 25, 2004)

This is sounding a lot like a discussion for the House Rules forum.


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## John Q. Mayhem (Dec 25, 2004)

Nifft has some interesting ideas on this. I saved them somewhere, but I think it was on another computer.


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## kigmatzomat (Dec 26, 2004)

kigmatzomat said:
			
		

> The armor does have one advantage for enchantment; the "double masterwork cost" applies as material components towards enchantment.






			
				dcollins said:
			
		

> No, it doesn't. You're not going to find any core rule that says such a thing -- it's a "special material" like mithril, adamantine, etc., with it's own properties and own cost.




Except it has virtually no special properties I can discern other than being craftable (unlike every other naturally armored creature). Being wearable by druids is not a special property as it is an assertion of the fact dragonhide is not made of metal.  

There are a lot of "jewel encrusted" "precious metal inlayed" magic items in the DMG.  I'm merely stating that the "double" portion of "double masterwork" would apply as an "exotic material" used to craft otherwise normal armor.


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## Sejs (Dec 26, 2004)

> Except it has virtually no special properties I can discern other than being craftable



 It's a non-metal substance that can be made into armors that are normally required to be made of metal.  That's its primary special property.  Because it's not metal (but can serve in its stead), it's immune to being heated, chilled, transmuted into wood, rusted, and can be worn by folks with a no-metal-armor restriction.  Oh, and won't set off the metal detectors at the airport.


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## Nifft (Dec 26, 2004)

John Q. Mayhem said:
			
		

> Nifft has some interesting ideas on this. I saved them somewhere, but I think it was on another computer.




Honestly, I'm going to have to start paying you for your pimp service! 

I'll be happy to post my stuff again... just post something over in House Rules and I'll follow up.

ObTopic: Yeah, Core Dragon Scales aren't what they used to be. Why, my Paladin in Baldur's Gate 2 was all jiggy with the Red Scale armor...


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## dcollins (Dec 26, 2004)

kigmatzomat said:
			
		

> Except it has virtually no special properties I can discern other than being craftable (unlike every other naturally armored creature). Being wearable by druids is not a special property as it is an assertion of the fact dragonhide is not made of metal.




"Dragonhide has 10 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 10."



> There are a lot of "jewel encrusted" "precious metal inlayed" magic items in the DMG.  I'm merely stating that the "double" portion of "double masterwork" would apply as an "exotic material" used to craft otherwise normal armor.




Not relevant. You need to find a quote in the DMG that says you can exchange random extra costs into crafting costs. And no such quote exists.


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## Fieari (Dec 26, 2004)

Basically, every time this subject comes up, I have to say:

Yes, the core rules for dragonhide armor suck.  I DM in order that my players have fun.  Fun generally involves doing cool things.  Dragonhide armor is cool, but players tend to sacrifice things that "look" cool on their imaginary character for something functional.  As a DM, I feel it is my duty to be able to combine mechanically functional equipment with stuff that is "cool".  Thus, I feel it is not only my right, but my DUTY to house rule dragonskin armor as something better.  Providing energy resistance is the easiest way to go, of course, but sometimes I'll also allow for AC bonuses and such.

Otherwise, the game just isn't as much fun.

So yes, off to house rules, because in this situation, the RAW sucks.


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## Elephant (Dec 26, 2004)

Extra AC and energy resistance would be the way to go, IMO.  Making it more expensive would balance that out - in addition to slaying the dragon(s) for dragonhide armor, the PCs will have to pony up significant cash for that benefit.  I'd probably rule that crafting effective dragonhide of this type would require an extra-high craft DC, as well.


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## Klaus (Dec 26, 2004)

One house rule I apply is that dragonhide is inherently magical, reducing the cost for enchanting it (gp and XP) by 10% for the following enchantments:
- AC bonus
- Fortification (light, moderate, heavy)
- Invulnerability

Also, based on the dragon type, it reduces the cost of one of the following enchantments by 30%
- Black, Green, Copper: Acid Resistance
- Blue, Bronze: Electricity Resistance
- Copper, Gold, Red: Fire Resistance
- Silver, White: Cold Resistance
- Shadow: Shadow (duh!)
- Ghost Dragon (any type): Ghost Touch (harvesting the scales of a ghost dragon requires quite a crafty party!)


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## Fieari (Dec 27, 2004)

Quick question for those of you NOT house ruling dragonhide:

What are draconic encounters like in your campaign?

Are dragons just another monster, the sort of thing you might roll up on a random chart?

I know that MY players have learned to fear the sight of even white wyrmlings... (maybe even esspecially white wyrmlings-- evil little buggers, and not at all willing to duke it out in an honerable fashion so that the party can kill them) and they're at level 8 now.  They've encountered half a dozen dragons so far... nearly died every single time, and the only dragon they killed, they killed via McGuffin, and not through any tactical merit on their part.  When they finally DO kill a dragon, there will be cheers all around and celebration and quite a bit of partying.


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## Sejs (Dec 27, 2004)

> What are draconic encounters like in your campaign?



 For my players?  Painful.  And never to be taken lightly.  My players fully understand my position - when I run NPCs, monsters, etc, I do so in a fashion that is as faithful to the individual as I can make it, and to the best of that individual's ability.

And with dragons, that ability is _vast_.



> Are dragons just another monster, the sort of thing you might roll up on a random chart?



  When I DM, I don't use random charts -exactly-.  I map out ahead of time what creatures are in the area, cook up a number of encounters that would be appropriate that incorporate the locals.  When the time comes for a random encounter, I either pick one if it's particularly pertinant, or just roll randomly if none of them present themselves as really cool and appropriate for the situation at hand.

Memory serving, I've used a random encounter with a dragon a grant total of once.  White dragon, set on a coastal arctic plain.  Fly by, snatch a PC in heavy armor, fly out over open water while maintaining a hold on them, and let 'em drop.  They later recovered the (then half-eaten) corpse from the dragon's lair once they tracked it down.  Afterwards when I was going over my game notes, I came to the conclusion that yeah.. that was all perfectly in line with what a white dragon would've done, but all the same, it wasn't much fun for the bulk of the encounter set.  So, after that I've just made a point to keep dragons as more of plot points than just random monsters.


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## Klaus (Dec 27, 2004)

My players fought exactly 3 dragons in the past 11 levels:

- Calcryx, the white wyrmling;
- Nightscale, the young black;
- A young adult blue dragon.

They also fought a half-white dragon/half frost giant.

They tend to be very well prepared (ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and the ranger has +4 against dragons from favored enemy).


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## Sinjin (Dec 11, 2010)

We're talking about two separate things here. When you're talking heavy armor, it would incorporate scales. That's the hard stuff. Lighter armor could certainly be made from smaller dragons like wyrmlings or a shaved layer from a larger dragon (or other creature!).

The amor bonus would be negligible though. If you're talking light armor, its thin and light. That's the point. Kangaroo leather is really tough leather. Alligator skin is supple and tough, but I don't think either is strong enough to count as an armor bonus. Dragonskin might be supple enough to get that masterwork quality armor check bonus. That sounds reasonable.

Resistance to elements would be the point. The hide of a black dragon might allow you to stomp around in pools of acid all day. Depends on the concentration of the acid I guess. I agree that it would need to be enchanted to express a powerful resisance, but I would be open to argument on low level resistance.

As a Special Material it would be conductive or resistant as the case may be, like a gem, rather than hard like a metal. Would a Displacer Beast hide naturally grant concealment? I would say no. But I would be open to changes in item creation formulae when using it as a special material.

By the way, I did make a scourge once. Black adamanite chain braided in dragon wyrmling hide. It was heavily enchanted. Rules are guidelines. Always reward creativity. That's why were here, yes?


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## Nifft (Dec 13, 2010)

Sinjin said:


> Rules are guidelines. Always reward creativity. That's why were here, yes?



 I'm not here right now, but I was here in 2004.

Cheers, -- N


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## Empirate (Dec 13, 2010)

Back on topic, I found this little passage in the Draconomicon:



			
				Draconomicon said:
			
		

> Special Properties of Dragonhide Armor:
> Many characters favor dragonhide armor simply because it looks good. In combat, dragonhide armor isn't any better than normal armor; however, the armor itself remains immune to energy damage of the same type as the breath weapon of the dragon that supplied the hide. For example, red dragon armor is impervious to fire. The character wearing the armor does no benefit from this property.




The book goes on to describe Dragoncraft Items, however, which are quite OK - needs a special feat to craft, but provides nonmagical energy resistance 5 (corresponding to dragon type) in the case of armor. It costs 3,000 gp for light armor, 6,000 gp for medium, and 11,000 gp for heavy armor, plus the armor's regular cost. The whole package also always produces masterwork results.


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