# How is the warlock not overpowered?



## CrimsonWineGlass (Apr 23, 2007)

Okay, I have noticed a lot of warlock love.  I personally like the class for its flair and the simplistic way it captured darker and more demonic magic.  I also remember reading the class and thinking "What a game breaker" due to its sheer power.  It can do effective sneak attack damage once per round with a ranged touch attack potentially 300 feet away at first level.  That is a lot, its not as much as a well placed fire ball, but it also has less restrictions.  You add on that they have multiple incantations that last all day.  Spider climb and flight come to mind without the book as well as multiple replications of other spells.  Combine this with DR and a multitude of special abilities that are quite useful and a notable skill list and a D6 hit dice.  Why is it that I am the only one who does not think this to be overpowered.  I haven't seen it used in a game outside a low level game (in which I would say it is mostly balanced) and I'm just wondering.  I know optimization of a warlock is harder than most classes, but its naturally a god from my view.


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## 3d6 (Apr 23, 2007)

The reason most people don't think its overpowered is because its a pretty weak class. If you've seen it in a low-level game, you've seen the peak of its power; the warlock is most competitive at 1st level, when it deals as much damage as the wizard. Starting at 2nd level, it falls farther and farther behind.


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## Nail (Apr 23, 2007)

3d6 said:
			
		

> If you've seen it in a low-level game, you've seen the peak of its power; the warlock is most competitive at 1st level, when it deals as much damage as the wizard. Starting at 2nd level, it falls farther and farther behind.



Exactly.

IIRC, play-testing has shown a warlock to be - at best - a balanced class.  At worst, it's under-powered.  A Warlock can use feats to increase it's damage output, but it can't keep up with the usual arcane classes.  It's other abilities are limited, so not the deciding factor.

I'm hoping that soon a player of mine will take a warlock, so I can see them in action.


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## nittanytbone (Apr 23, 2007)

The warlock is generally inferior to a pure caster (cleric or wizard).  This is due to the restrictiveness/lack of flexibility of invocation selection and the mediocre damge output of Eldritch Blast.

There are some situations in which case Warlocks are more potent:

With a Fast-Paced DM:  Wizards (and to a lesser extent other prepared casters) thrive on downtime.  They need time to aquire new spells and copy them into their tome.  They need time to make scrolls.  They need time to sit down and memorize a proper spell loadout for the day.  If the DM keeps the party continually on the run and interrupts rest cycles, a warlock is great because he can keep going indefinitely.

With an Inexperienced Player:  Warlocks are easy to play as there are few resources to manage.  All you have to worry about are your HP and your consumables (Scrolls, potions, etc).  Wizards and other prepared casters must juggle HP, consumables, and their spell slots.   A skilled and experienced player can easily juggle all these factors and get maximum mileage out of the versatility of a prepared caster, but a newbie might not understand good spell management (perhaps feeling a need to use a spell every single round, or on the other hand being too stingy and not using their spells up, or perhaps not even memorizing something useful). Sorcerers and spontaneous casters represent a middle ground between the two extremes.

With a predictable DM:  If a certain invocation will ALWAYS be useful, then Warlocks are great.  If you know your DM loves to include vertical challenges in every encounter, having continuous fly or spider climb is handy.  Likewise, if your DM loves social encounters, Beguiling Influence is wonderful for a social character.  If the DM mixes challenges up, then warlocks will find that they are hurting for versatility.


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## Kurotowa (Apr 23, 2007)

The damage is nothing special.  A Rogue is adding those Sneak Attack dice to weapon damage, and between TWF and Iterative Attacks can do that much damage multiple times in a single round.  A Warlock has exactly two ways to deal their Eldritch Blast damage more than once a round (Quicken SLA and Eldritch Glaive), and both have severe shortcomings.  Compared to any serious damage dealing class they fall far behind.

The rest of the invocations are handy, and you can run roughshod over an unprepared DM by using Flee the Scene or Baleful Utterance to teleport around or shatter through every lock and obstacle.  But for raw power they're not so great.  Casters get spells in more variety and levels more powerful.  In actual play they're a very resilient grab bag of tricks that's unlikely to overshadow anyone else, much less come close to overpowering things.


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## frankthedm (Apr 23, 2007)

Overall it seems like a decent class, there are some issues with how some invocations can drastically affect some adventure types, but as long as:

Magic items are a salable commodity in the setting
Magic is as commonly available as the ruleset assumes
The normal breakneck speed character level advancement system is used.

The warlock is more or less a balanced class.

Without magic items semi commonly available for sale, the warlock takes a hit in the pull his own weight department since several things he cannot do in the blaster / sneaker party slot on his own are easily relieved with a selection of scrolls and wands. But when normal casters did not have the option to buy, oh say a wand of shatter or a staff of fire, that makes the warlock stronger because his unlimited uses of those abilities now shine even greater. Also since the setting has less magic to go around, fewer places will have counter measures to deal with warlock abilities. If in a setting, an important countermeasure to invisibility is it only lasts so long and a caster can only cast it so often, the warlock gets around that.

If the players advance slower than normal, that makes the warlock much stronger. In games that will run for a while, spell casters have to ration their wands and charged items, since they will be at a power level where their wands are still modestly useful for a while. With the default advancement rate, a caster has to really try to burn through wands [other than Cure wands] to run out before the wand is too weak in comparison to the challenges being faced. The warlock does no have to do this rationing.

13.5 encounters a level was the default assumption for 3e. That means if you uses a wand once an encounter, it might last for 4 levels and most likely not be that useful by that time. Using it twice an encounter means that it lasts for two levels and by then trading in might have been sounding like a godd idea anyhow. Using it every round [typicly 3.5 rounds for how 3E combat goes] means that one level later the wand is used up, costly, but thanks to the power increase the loot has been coming in hand over fist so it was worth it. This speed of usage means a warlock’s ‘unlimited’ usage of blasts and invocations does not outshine the normal casters.

In a game with slower advancement however, treasure also comes at a slower pace, burning through a wand in less than a level will seriously crimp the characters cash flow, the warlock in this situation has a serious advantage.


			
				Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Warlock is a great "no paperwork" magic user, as you don't have to keep track of spell slots, spells memorized, spell points, or anything resource based like that (with the exception of a 1/day fiendish resiliance, gained at higher levels).  That makes me like it right there.



Oh, they are a very simple, _the fun never ends untill you run out of HP_ class. They are what a Caster in *Iron Heroes* should have operated like.. if not for the setting's _"Magic is too dangerous to rely on"_ mission statement.  http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=183170


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## werk (Apr 23, 2007)

We're currently playing low level and when a player started to make a sorcerer and started to complain about the sorcerer right out of the gate, I made the suggestion to try a warlock.  Best Advice Ever!

Now he is the star of the campaign zapping anything and everything.  The wizxard of the same level with a few wands looks like a schmuck in comparison.  You just gotta love low level play.

Levels will limit his power, but even then, unlimited ranged touch for (level/2)d6 is pretty darn good.  Everything else falls in the utility column, being able to add to their blast (range, shape, delivery, add conditions) or add to themselves (devil sight, see invis, fly)...they are a one trick pony, but that one trick is quite nice.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Apr 23, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> Exactly.
> 
> IIRC, play-testing has shown a warlock to be - at best - a balanced class.  At worst, it's under-powered.  A Warlock can use feats to increase it's damage output, but it can't keep up with the usual arcane classes.  It's other abilities are limited, so not the deciding factor.
> 
> I'm hoping that soon a player of mine will take a warlock, so I can see them in action.




Yep.  It's, if anything, a touch weak.  Yeah, 3d6 ranged touch attacks _ad infinitum_ are interesting at 5th level, but already the wizard's popping out a fireball and doing as much damage to 4+ targets.  Move it up 10 levels, and the 8d6/round the warlock's putting out pales in comparison to the wizard's Fire Brand or Cone of Cold.

While the warlock can pump out (conceivably) thousands of d6s in damage/day, it takes far more actions for it to output the same damage a wizard/sorceror/psion can, and the more actions the target gets, the more it can hurt you and/or your party.

I'm playing one right now, and to be perfectly honest, I'm not terribly impressed.  It's certainly simple to play, but most of my contribution to the party is via Use Magic Device, not my invocations.

Brad


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## irdeggman (Apr 23, 2007)

Don't forget the fact that it is a feat-starved class.  That is it gets no bonus feats and at its core it really needs them.

If only going with the "blaster" approach (not something that is "required by the way} 2 feats that are a "must" are:

Point Blank Shot

Precise Shot (which has PBS as a prerequisite).

Without those the shooting into melee penalties can really deter the benefit.

When Improved Precise Shot can be acquired (but that has a +11 BAB prerequisite) {15th level for a straight warlock character} it has been pretty much bypassed in its usefulness, IMO.

Don't forget that the Eldritch Blast is susceptible to SR.


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## frankthedm (Apr 23, 2007)

irdeggman said:
			
		

> Don't forget that the Eldritch Blast is susceptible to SR.



Making the NO SR Vitrolic blast a "No-Choice" choice.


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## Raspen (Apr 23, 2007)

balancing classes seems to be a hard thing for any games to do.  if you take warloc and put it next to any other caster class you can do the math and see that if falls short of ability unless the game last a very long time without rest.

the damage on the blast is week compaired to the damage that can come from another caster.

take greater invis from a warloc he can do it as much as he wishes but at lvl 20 its one of 3 of hes most powerful invocations.

take greater invis from a sorcerer he can do is 36 times (without gear/or bonus spells form chr) at lvl 20 and its one of his lvl 4 spells hardly a powerful one at all.

lets take damage a warloc will do 11d6 (with gear) at lvl 20 once per round (not counting quickend or glaive).

lets take damage of a sorcerer we will use the spell disintegrate 40d6 (or 5d6) it can be cast 24 times without gear

and lets just look at say Wish that compairs to a warlocs ummm a warlocs..........


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## pallandrome (Apr 23, 2007)

I found that certain feats made the class immensely more useful. I generally suggest taking all the fey touched feats you cen get. Among other things, you get a bit of healing (use the summon natures ally to get 1d3 unicorns) confusion, and iminsion door, as well as an extra DR 5/Cold Iron, which stacks with the warlock DR. Oh, and an all important increase in your invocation DCs.


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## pawsplay (Apr 23, 2007)

Basically, it lets you play a bush league superhero alongside full-on epic heroes. You're the Scarlet Witch, they're Conan, Legolas, Merlin, the Grey Mouser, and St. George the Dragon Slayer. You can turn invisible, create clouds of nastiness, and go PEWPEWPEW all day, but you have no damage output, few utility abilities, weak defenses, some MAD problems, little to look forward to at mid to high levels, few offensive tactics that avoid SR, and are feat-starved in a way only a paladin can appreciate. 

I hope and pray that every warlock PC realizes they need to max out UMD by level 5 or so.


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## pallandrome (Apr 23, 2007)

Yet strangely, the moment you get that first epic feat, you should be balanced again!

(Shades at will, ftw!)


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## brehobit (Apr 23, 2007)

pallandrome said:
			
		

> I found that certain feats made the class immensely more useful. I generally suggest taking all the fey touched feats you cen get. Among other things, you get a bit of healing (use the summon natures ally to get 1d3 unicorns) confusion, and iminsion door, as well as an extra DR 5/Cold Iron, which stacks with the warlock DR. Oh, and an all important increase in your invocation DCs.



Not to mention actual spells.  By 9th level a human warlock can have 6 spells/day.  Makes the warlock quite competitive up to at least level 11.  That a UMD make up nicely for the lack of general flexiblity.  Heck, by summoning unicorns you can even heal people...

Mark


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## Particle_Man (Apr 23, 2007)

Since I got quoted here, I should add:

The Warlock is not only a great class for newbie players, it is an awesome class for the DM that needs (a) quickly made and easy to run magic using villain(s).  My DM basically does not use wizards or sorcerors anymore, just warlocks.

Fey-Touched feats are nice, but that is a 5 feat investment!  

Damn, now I want to play one again!


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## Felon (Apr 23, 2007)

CrimsonWineGlass said:
			
		

> Why is it that I am the only one who does not think this to be overpowered.



Why is it that you have concluded that you are the only one who thinks that? A lot of folks think it's a dandy, balanced class.

Throwing out the words "overpowered", "balanced", and "weak" as if they were the only meaningful labels that can be applied to a class is sort of a kneejerk reaction that leads to some miconceptions. In this case, if we conclude that the warlock is not "overpowered", does that automatically clear it for gameplay? If you're not "overpowered", are you therefore "balanced"?

My own experiences with the class show that it has a very high potential for abuse relative to other classes due to its ability to spam its invocations. Not so much that I'd ban it outright, but I would express my concerns to that player. I don't want the warlock going around using dark speech to spam shatter at every object that doesn't please his eye. I don't want him spamming charm on every NPC he encounters. I don't want every battlefield to become a morass of spammed chilling tentacles. I don't want him dimension-dooring around every obstacle. Any of that would get old real quick.

Now, another arcanist could conceivably try to do this sort of stuff (i.e. by going out and getting a wand of shatter), but in practice they are a lot less likely to do so than a warlock. The reason is simple: other casters have better things to do with their resources, while the warlock is constrained to repeating the same handful of tricks. Whereas other arcanists rely on a powerful arsenal, the warlock relies on infinite spammability. I'm not sure that's a great trade-off.


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## Satori (Apr 23, 2007)

"If you think like a hammer, then everything starts to look like a nail."
-Abraham Lincoln

Warlocks are the quintessential "Hammer".

They are, in most primal form, the worst type of "One Trick Pony".

Imagine playing a wizard, then being told that the only spells you can cast are Magic Missle, Detect Magic, and Levitate.  You can cast these at will, and your powers scale based on your level...but the bottom line is that you will be forced to cast these spells every round.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Warlock.  In fact, I'm always about two heartbeats away from playing one every time a game comes around.

However, the class is AT BEST a moderately effective "Magical Archer", and should be compared to THAT, and not a primary caster.

When you look at it this way, it makes more sense.


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## Darklone (Apr 23, 2007)

I like to play games where the wizards get ranged combat feats for their crossbow because they are used to use all their spells. And wands. And scrolls. 

And still the warlocks aren't overpowered. Nice, useful, reliable, but not overpowered.


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## Bad Paper (Apr 23, 2007)

Warlocks are boxers who can only jab.


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## Nail (Apr 23, 2007)

brehobit said:
			
		

> By 9th level a human warlock can have 6 spells/day.



Could you explain how?  Thanks.


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## kigmatzomat (Apr 23, 2007)

The warlock class is quite flexible in implementation but each warlock generated is a specialist.  I like that since you can have radically different warlocks without resorting to optional rules.  Blaster, stealth, face, and harasser.  Each specialized but each different and all warlocks.


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## Fishbone (Apr 23, 2007)

Bad Paper said:
			
		

> Warlocks are boxers who can only jab.



Yep, they are developmentally stunted outside men. With flying at will and all the evasion and DR they float like butterflies but sting like bees. 
Acid use+Greater Chasuble+Maximization at level 20 is only what, 90 damage? The melee guys have been doing that for about 10 levels at that point.
The real cool thing is they make great faces, are great harriers, and can use the magic device goofiness to do some broken things occasional. They are essentially an eldritch monk. If the monk class has broke your games you might want to think about banning them. Hahahahah!


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## Felon (Apr 23, 2007)

On a related note, has anyone given the eldritch theurge or eldritch disciple a shot? Those might address some of the concerns I expressed.


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## frankthedm (Apr 23, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> I don't want the warlock going around using dark speech to spam shatter at every object that doesn't please his eye. I don't want him spamming charm on every NPC he encounters. I don't want every battlefield to become a morass of spammed chilling tentacles. I don't want him dimension-dooring around every obstacle. Any of that would get old real quick.



Those are the real issue with the warlock.


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## RigaMortus2 (Apr 23, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> Could you explain how?  Thanks.




At 6th level they can take Fey Presence (from Complete Mage) which gives you the following spell-like abilities, useable 1/day:
Charm Monster
Deep Slumber
Disguise Self

At 9th level they can take Fey Legacy (also from Complete Mage) which gives you the following spell-like abilities, useable 1/day:
Confusion
Dimension Door
Summon Nature's Ally


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## irdeggman (Apr 23, 2007)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> At 6th level they can take Fey Presence (from Complete Mage) which gives you the following spell-like abilities, useable 1/day:
> Charm Monster
> Deep Slumber
> Disguise Self
> ...




Interesting.

But since they need to take Fey Heritage first (at 1st level because of the progression) and warlocks get no bonus feats - a human warlock (best for feats) would get:

2 feats at first level
1 feat at 3rd level
1 feat at 6th and so on.

As pointed out there are a few feats that are almost musts for them and going the fey heritage route (or fiendish one for that matter) would severly restrict them.


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## RigaMortus2 (Apr 23, 2007)

irdeggman said:
			
		

> Interesting.
> 
> But since they need to take Fey Heritage first (at 1st level because of the progression) and warlocks get no bonus feats - a human warlock (best for feats) would get:
> 
> ...




I agree, which is why I would never go this route.  I was just pointing out how they end up with 6 spells/day.

Whenever I make a Warlock, I always seem to have the same "template" for my feat choices.  PBS, Precise Shot, Sudden Still Spell, Maximize SLA, Quicken SLA, Extra Invocation (in that order)...


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## irdeggman (Apr 23, 2007)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> I agree, which is why I would never go this route.  I was just pointing out how they end up with 6 spells/day.
> 
> Whenever I make a Warlock, I always seem to have the same "template" for my feat choices.  PBS, Precise Shot, Sudden Still Spell, Maximize SLA, Quicken SLA, Extra Invocation (in that order)...




Yup those are the ones that generally work for almost every one.

My 1 ranger/4 warlock has favored enemy outsiders (evil) and PBS/PS but went with Magical Aptitude instead (figured on attempting to max out UMD).


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## Klaus (Apr 23, 2007)

I was about to suggest the Fey Heritage route.

Point-Blank Shot + Precise Shot aren't really useful when you have:
- Medium BAB
- An attack that targets the Touch AC.

At any rate, a Human Warlock could take:
1st - Fey Heritage
1st - Point Blank Shot
3rd - Precise Shot
6th - Fey Skin
9th - Fey Presence
12th - Fey Legacy

In exchange for that "fey archer" route, he gets 6 very good spell-like abilities, +3 on Will saves vs. enchantments and DR 4/cold iron that stacks with his own class-based DR.

The warlock also shares an advantage with the Soulknife: he never needs to spend money on a weapon. Heck, push the envelope and have a warforged warlock (warlockforged studded with Khyber shards?) and you'll have armor and weapon accounted for from the get-go.


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## Drowbane (Apr 24, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> The warlock also shares an advantage with the Soulknife: he never needs to spend money on a weapon. Heck, push the envelope and have a warforged warlock (warlockforged studded with Khyber shards?) and you'll have armor and weapon accounted for from the get-go.




Mythril Body + Battlecaster?


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## cignus_pfaccari (Apr 24, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> I was about to suggest the Fey Heritage route.
> 
> Point-Blank Shot + Precise Shot aren't really useful when you have:
> - Medium BAB
> - An attack that targets the Touch AC.




Precise Shot is nifty when playing Mr. Fire Support.




> Heck, push the envelope and have a warforged warlock (warlockforged studded with Khyber shards?) and you'll have armor and weapon accounted for from the get-go.




And we'll call that a Centurion build.  Because it is, esp. when you have the Battlefist installed.  (Awesome idea, BTW)

Brad


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## Hammerhead (Apr 24, 2007)

I don't like to waste 2 feats for Precise Shot (let's face it, PBS is pretty worthless) when you can easily get the same with a relatively low cost Rod of Magical Precision from the Complete Mage.


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## Raspen (Apr 24, 2007)

well i been playing a warloc since they frist came out and i love my guy ( who is still a girl do to some unforseen problems) anyway my warloc is a melee warloc im not going to explain how i have him set up because i have done that on other post but i do 4 attacks a round doing 11d6 and -2 lvl (failed save) per hit that is 264+lvl's damage my guy is lvl 20 and has a 31 AC and attackers always have 50% miss chance on him.  All his attacks are flat-footed touch and my saves are CRAZY high and no it didnt cost me that much for gear less then the norm 20th start of cash for a NPC....

am i overpowered?....... only when i can get in close

all that aside i think that to say that warlocs are one sided is a way of being lazy and picking one track invocations

how meny uses is thier for a wall of fire or disimboded hand or even word of changeing. what do you use them for i bet i know ever think of other options with them? almost all the invocations not counting the blast can be used out of combat.

the MASS amount of spells out thier for other classes makes people lazy when trying to use the spells in diffrent ways and thats a shame in my mind.

sorry about this statment im not attacking anyone im just explaining that a warloc can be alot more then one sided.


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## IanB (Apr 24, 2007)

Maxing out UMD + Scribe Scroll + that class feature that lets them make items without the spell prerequisite = a warlock that can cast just about any spell it needs to from any list, given enough notice.

That can go a long way towards cleaning up versatility issues, although it doesn't work until mid-high levels. If you are in a game where you can easily buy scrolls of whatever you need, it kicks in a lot earlier.


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## satori01 (Apr 24, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> On a related note, has anyone given the eldritch theurge or eldritch disciple a shot? Those might address some of the concerns I expressed.




I have used the Eldritch Theurge as Villian, very, very effective.  In the hands of a powergamer it might be to extreme, being able to blast someone with Eldritch Blast and layer say a Horrid Wilting on top of it is nasty.

Powerwise Warlock does not compare to the other classes.  Eldritch Blast does not compare to the Divine Might, 2 handed PA, Smite Evil, Bless Weapon Paladin, or the twinked out Machine gun archer....or the Elemental Monolith summoning Druid.

Sure the Warlock can theoretically Baleful Polymorph all day long, but Warlock Invocations, and many Warlock Builds do not emphasize the DCs for their powers.  Likewise the # of Invocations known are small, deciding wether to augment your Eldritch Blast or taking something great like Flee the Scene is a hard choice.

Spamming is not a huge issue assuming you have a responsive player.
A Sorcerer with Evard's Tentacles can spam under default conditions most people play with almost as much as a Warlock.
The Warlock in my group uses Chilling Tentacles very rarely, because he recognizes that it is not fun for the melee types.

Flee the Scene frankly he uses all the time, and I love it as the DM.  Impossible escape the  Death Star before it blows ups scenarios become possible with it.

BTW...you do not need PBS or Precise Shot...Touch Attack...suck up the minus 4.


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## pallandrome (Apr 24, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> In exchange for that "fey archer" route, he gets 6 very good spell-like abilities, +3 on Will saves vs. enchantments and DR 4/cold iron that stacks with his own class-based DR.




I'd still suggest Fey Power as well. an extra point of DR, and +1 to the save DC on his invocations, who you'll obviously be wanting to get as high as possible.


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## Raspen (Apr 24, 2007)

the fay feats rail road you into makeing a cookie cutter warloc injoy them for me ill take my extra invo's and quicken / max abilitys any day O and the grand Force of Personaly and Arcane Mastery 8)


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## Sejs (Apr 24, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> Could you explain how?  Thanks.




To be fair to the above statement, so could a 9th level human _fighter_, or a 9th level human _commoner_.


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## brehobit (Apr 24, 2007)

Sejs said:
			
		

> To be fair to the above statement, so could a 9th level human _fighter_, or a 9th level human _commoner_.



True,
But the warlock gets to stack DR with his class DR (handy) and gets the +1 DC on all of his invocations.   The 7th level warlock in my game has DR 6/cold iron.

Mark


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## Klaus (Apr 24, 2007)

Raspen said:
			
		

> the fay feats rail road you into makeing a cookie cutter warloc injoy them for me ill take my extra invo's and quicken / max abilitys any day O and the grand Force of Personaly and Arcane Mastery 8)



 You see "cookie cutter", I see a damn good Sidhe Archer.


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## pallandrome (Apr 24, 2007)

Raspen said:
			
		

> the fay feats rail road you into makeing a cookie cutter warloc injoy them for me ill take my extra invo's and quicken / max abilitys any day O and the grand Force of Personaly and Arcane Mastery 8)





Errr, how do they railroad me into anything? I'm taking them because I like them, not because I'm forced to.


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## werk (Apr 24, 2007)

pallandrome said:
			
		

> Errr, how do they railroad me into anything? I'm taking them because I like them, not because I'm forced to.




Probably because they are mostly wrote, or need to be taken in sequential order.  A lot of feats are like that...I don't see a problem.


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## Jemal (Apr 24, 2007)

Raspen said:
			
		

> and lets just look at say Wish that compairs to a warlocs ummm a warlocs..........




Oh don't even bring up Wish.. 5000 XP cost, and the fact that the DM decides what happens?
The only time I ever used it my DM was a Dick.

DAR(My char): Damit, that Dragon's really abusing the Magical darkness in here, and our DM won't let us cast light spells. AHA!  "I WISH I could See the Dragon!"
DM: "OK, the Dragon is 100' ahead of you.  Her turn.  You hear her say 'I wish Dar couldn't see me', and you can't see her."
ME: That was 5000 XP well spent.

As for Warlocks - I like them simply because I like the thought of being able to do stuff Ad Nauseum.  Also one of the reasons I prefer Sorc's over Wizards.  I'd rather have more castings of less spells than one or two castings but know a crapload of spells.

ALso: 







> Basically, it lets you play a bush league superhero alongside full-on epic heroes. You're the Scarlet Witch, they're Conan, Legolas, Merlin, the Grey Mouser, and St. George the Dragon Slayer.



Um... I take it you haven't read house of M?


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## Raspen (Apr 24, 2007)

if your a blaster you would most likely be flying and away from the battle useing eld spear.

Why would you need DR watch is the only think that seems good from them feats.  if you get mith armor you can get med armor without a feat or if you go battle caster you can come out with heavy.  you get a fast healing once a day if something realy gets to you.  if anything you sould focuse on your saves with gear like vest or resistance and spell strike weopen.  Even some feats help with this like force of personality or the kiss feat from BOED.  Useing defence invocations would help more at this point then the DR so getting extra invocations like Devils own luck, Ignor the prye, Entropic warding, or enervating shadows.

at least then you can chose to max your blast then qucken another or if your just a caster type you can get ability focus and turn everything into a chicken charm the chicken and cook it on a wall of fire.

but i cant see working my way through them fay feats plus who realy whats to know they have farie blood in their body........... dispite my good nature my warloc would be disapointed to know that he wasnt some distant agrement with a demon.


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## Klaus (Apr 24, 2007)

Raspen said:
			
		

> if your a blaster you would most likely be flying and away from the battle useing eld spear.
> 
> Why would you need DR watch is the only think that seems good from them feats.  if you get mith armor you can get med armor without a feat or if you go battle caster you can come out with heavy.  you get a fast healing once a day if something realy gets to you.  if anything you sould focuse on your saves with gear like vest or resistance and spell strike weopen.  Even some feats help with this like force of personality or the kiss feat from BOED.  Useing defence invocations would help more at this point then the DR so getting extra invocations like Devils own luck, Ignor the prye, Entropic warding, or enervating shadows.
> 
> at least then you can chose to max your blast then qucken another or if your just a caster type you can get ability focus and turn everything into a chicken charm the chicken and cook it on a wall of fire.




 Yeah, who would want to spend feats to gain access to Charm Monster (a 4th-level spell with a duration of 1 day/level that can turn ANY creature into your trusted friend), Confusion (a 4th-level spell capable of taking out multiple creatures), Deep Slumber (putting 10HD of creatures to sleep), Dimension Door (which, unlike Flee The Scene, lets you bring along your allies) and Summon Nature's Ally V (call forth a dire lion, a griffon, a Large elemental, 1d3 unicorns, 1d3 deinonychuses...).

Yeah, the DR is the only reason... 



> but i cant see working my way through them fay feats plus who realy whats to know they have farie blood in their body........... dispite my good nature my warloc would be disapointed to know that he wasnt some distant agrement with a demon.




'Cause demons are sooooo much cooler than this guy?


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## pallandrome (Apr 24, 2007)

Unseelie Fey are as evil as demons, and a good deal creepier. I'd certainly make a deal with the devil if it would keep me from turning into one of those bastards...


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## Raspen (Apr 24, 2007)

you are trying to tell me that getting a few low lvl spells that you can use once a day is worth the burn on feats when you can get invocations that can be used over and over and sill have good uses later in lvls.  on the good side ya a Dim Door is good to have in case things go bad but its just as easy to get a wand or other item to save the feat.  Would just be easyer getting craft magic wand feat....  sure you lose some exp but you can have your farie abilitys with just one feat.


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## pallandrome (Apr 24, 2007)

Yes. I'm glad you understand.


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## Klaus (Apr 24, 2007)

Raspen said:
			
		

> you are trying to tell me that getting a few low lvl spells that you can use once a day is worth the burn on feats when you can get invocations that can be used over and over and sill have good uses later in lvls.  on the good side ya a Dim Door is good to have in case things go bad but its just as easy to get a wand or other item to save the feat.  Would just be easyer getting craft magic wand feat....  sure you lose some exp but you can have your farie abilitys with just one feat.



 Since when are 4th- and 5th-level spells "low level"?

And one of the main weaknesses of the Warlock is that he has a limited range of abilities. You spend 3 feats to get these six spell-like abilities (at caster level = character level, to boot) and you can use your invocations for other things.

This may not be *your* build, but not everyone plays a warlock just to blast things all day long.


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## Ender_rpm (Apr 24, 2007)

FWIW, the only warlock ever playe din my games got polymorphed into a bunny at 8th level. FAiled both saves. Poor Duthac...


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## lukelightning (Apr 24, 2007)

How come a warlock is a "one trick pony" but a fighter isn't? Instead of "PEWPEWPEW" (as pawsplay humorously put it), a fighter is all "chopchopchop."


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## pallandrome (Apr 24, 2007)

Hey a fighter most certainly CAN be a one-trick pony, just like a Warlock can. but neither of them HAVE to be.


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## irdeggman (Apr 24, 2007)

Warlocks are much more likely to be one-trick ponies then are fighters.

They get few evocations (12 over 20 levels) and no bonus feats.  Warlocks can either be good blasters or use their evocations for other purposes and pretty much lose out on combat type damage (although they can be real sneaky and useful by careful selection of evocations at the expense of powering up their EB).

Fighters get all of those bonus feats that can be spread around if desired - and usually a fighter will have a primary stick and a secondary one - for balance.


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## pawsplay (Apr 24, 2007)

lukelightning said:
			
		

> How come a warlock is a "one trick pony" but a fighter isn't? Instead of "PEWPEWPEW" (as pawsplay humorously put it), a fighter is all "chopchopchop."




At the very least, if a fighter spends no feats on ranged combat whatsoever, they are still a really decent shot with a composite longbow. In whatever area they did spend their feats, they are going to be frighteningly versatile.

And a fighter is probably one of the narrower archetypes.


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## Scharlata (Apr 24, 2007)

someone said:
			
		

> strong class



Hi!

I don't object. My experience with the warlock is that it's a strong class that does unbalanced damage on lower levels and is a powerful opponent to battle at higher levels. I allowed it as PC class in my campaign just to see my villains and everything at their sides fall to the eldritch blast like flies. Later I used warlocks to bitter effects against my PCs. The warlock has a good flavor and I like it as a powerful, but inflexible opponent. I might find the class more balanced if the ranged touch attack would be a ranged attack, to begin with... ;o)

Eldritch regards


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## werk (Apr 24, 2007)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> And a fighter is probably one of the narrower archetypes.




Yep, and they don't have to chopchopchop.  They can trip, grapple, sunder, disarm...all at level 1.  At level 1 the warlock is going pewpewpew.

Later on, yes, the warlock gets more utility, but he's still only focusing his EB and using it to power other things...kinda like power attack or expertise, but more dramatic.


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## Hammerhead (Apr 24, 2007)

Weak class, poor damage. At 12th level, my warlock has a little popgun that does 8d6 points of damage. My friend the wizard, on the other hand, shoots Scorching Rays that do 12d6 damage. Sure, my popgun has unlimited uses per day, but I haven't ever really seen the wizard run out of Scorching Rays. And he has all those 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th level spells.


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## Destil (Apr 24, 2007)

lukelightning said:
			
		

> How come a warlock is a "one trick pony" but a fighter isn't? Instead of "PEWPEWPEW" (as pawsplay humorously put it), a fighter is all "chopchopchop."



Even without spending the feats a fighter is a close combat damage machine, a competent ranged fighter, a meat shield, a good mounted combatant and 1 dominate person away from a TPK.

Add a feats trees like Power Attack -> Cleave -> Great Cleave (slayer of mooks) and you've got about the most flexible combat class in the game.


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## Klaus (Apr 24, 2007)

werk said:
			
		

> Yep, and they don't have to chopchopchop.  They can trip, grapple, sunder, disarm...all at level 1.  At level 1 the warlock is going pewpewpew.
> 
> Later on, yes, the warlock gets more utility, but he's still only focusing his EB and using it to power other things...kinda like power attack or expertise, but more dramatic.



 Only if you let it to.

You can have a Warlock 2 with Call of the Beast and Serpent's Tongue who is a very good tracker. He gets wild empathy, speak with animals at will, scent and +5 vs. poison. Take Devil's Sight, See the Unseen and All-Seeing Eyes and you have an awesome sentry. Beguiling Influence, coupled with Intimidating Strike, Skill Focus (Intimidate) and a maximized Intimidate skill will have shaken foes left and right.


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## ghettognome (Apr 24, 2007)

Hammerhead said:
			
		

> Weak class, poor damage. At 12th level, my warlock has a little popgun that does 8d6 points of damage. My friend the wizard, on the other hand, shoots Scorching Rays that do 12d6 damage. Sure, my popgun has unlimited uses per day, but I haven't ever really seen the wizard run out of Scorching Rays. And he has all those 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th level spells.




The last D & D character I had was a warlock, and at 12th level, I could certainly hold my own in the group, and at times was the only one who could do real damage. There are lot of things that help a warlock. In using the right combination of invocations, it can do a lot of damage. There is an ability somewhere around that level that allows a maximized blast 3 times per day. Using that in conjunction to the vitrolic blast (which penetrates SR automatically, and having an additional 2d6 in acid damage for the round it is shot and for several rounds following), it can do a lot. Sure the mage may have a lot more damage, but the target will usually get a saving throw, and wizard will usually have to make a check to penatrate SR, which I think creates a balance between the two.

When compared to a fighter, a good warlock is going to hit at least as often, if not more so. Hitting a touch AC makes a huge difference.

Sure, there is an arguement about what it can do and whether it is overpowered or not. When played right, it certainly is a very competitive class. It is also one of the least complicated classes to play. I love the warlock and try not to make one every time I talk about playing another game, even if it is just a one-shot.

The warlock's sceptor is a nice magic item to add to it as well. Get that +1 to attack rolls while it still has charges on it, and use the charges in a big battle. It came in quite handy with some of the brutal battles my GM through us up against.


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## Victim (Apr 25, 2007)

ghettognome said:
			
		

> The last D & D character I had was a warlock, and at 12th level, I could certainly hold my own in the group, and at times was the only one who could do real damage. There are lot of things that help a warlock. In using the right combination of invocations, it can do a lot of damage. There is an ability somewhere around that level that allows a maximized blast 3 times per day. Using that in conjunction to the vitrolic blast (which penetrates SR automatically, and having an additional 2d6 in acid damage for the round it is shot and for several rounds following), it can do a lot. Sure the mage may have a lot more damage, but the target will usually get a saving throw, and wizard will usually have to make a check to penatrate SR, which I think creates a balance between the two.
> 
> When compared to a fighter, a good warlock is going to hit at least as often, if not more so. Hitting a touch AC makes a huge difference.




I play with Hammerhead, so I'm familar with his warlock.  He has Maximize Spell like Ability, Eldritch Chain, uh - the burning one (needed for Hellfire Warlock), Noxious Blast (this is his best power IMO - 1 minute of nausea is nasty), and scaled up versions of the fell power booster.  If there's stuff to boost warlock damage, he's pretty much got it (except Eldritch Glaive).  

Give him some credit.  But at the same time, for every trick a warlock can use, other characters generally have access to an even larger selection of ways to boost their damage.  

Vitrolic Blast was deemed an overall downside, since it locks you into using Acid versus SR and prevents use other essences.  Demons and Devils come standard with Acid Resistance, for example, and Resist Energy knocks off a fair chunk of damage at a low cost.  Relying on Vitrolic also means that other invocations will suffer against SR.


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## RigaMortus2 (Apr 25, 2007)

pallandrome said:
			
		

> I'd still suggest Fey Power as well. an extra point of DR, and +1 to the save DC on his invocations, who you'll obviously be wanting to get as high as possible.




I don't think it is that obvious.  I often make Warlocks who take Invocations which do not rely on saves, but that's just me.  Just saying, it isn't always an "obvious" choice to boost DCs if you don't plan on taking invocations which have DCs.


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## Raspen (Apr 25, 2007)

about the SR if you dont what to use the acid blast just get Arcane Mastery.  most things you will fight wont beat that... and if that dont work have a wand of Assy SR.  but keep in mind that golams still suck.


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## Egres (Apr 25, 2007)

Warlock overpowered?

A grappled warlock is almost dead.


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## satori01 (Apr 25, 2007)

Egres said:
			
		

> A grappled warlock is almost dead.




Flee the Scene...dont leave home w/out it.

I love how this thread is turning around, and becoming a thread about how the Warlock is underpowered...... illustrates the difference between Knowledge and Wisdom.

Of course if droids could think, none of us would be here


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## Darklone (Apr 25, 2007)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> I don't think it is that obvious.  I often make Warlocks who take Invocations which do not rely on saves, but that's just me.  Just saying, it isn't always an "obvious" choice to boost DCs if you don't plan on taking invocations which have DCs.



Sorry, I thought the Fey heritage feats boost Enchantment DCs, are all these Warlock invos enchantment? I thought not.


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## Egres (Apr 25, 2007)

satori01 said:
			
		

> Flee the Scene...dont leave home w/out it.



Flee the scene has a somatic component, like all the warlock's invocations.

As I said, grappled warlock are almost dead.


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## irdeggman (Apr 25, 2007)

satori01 said:
			
		

> Flee the Scene...dont leave home w/out it.




But there is the concentration check to make when grappled



> Cast a Spell: You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell.





Flee the scene lesser, 4th

The Concentration DC (when grappled) is 24.

And if someone also threatens the square the warlock will generate an AoO when uisng his invocation.

Far from automatically free, IMO.


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## moritheil (Apr 25, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Oh don't even bring up Wish.. 5000 XP cost, and the fact that the DM decides what happens?
> The only time I ever used it my DM was a Dick.
> 
> DAR(My char): Damit, that Dragon's really abusing the Magical darkness in here, and our DM won't let us cast light spells. AHA!  "I WISH I could See the Dragon!"
> ...




Of course, if the dragon you're fighting is sufficiently advanced to cast wish (assuming it comes from her natural spell progression), that's an epic CR  .  Sounds like your DM just railroaded you, though.



> ALso:
> Um... I take it you haven't read house of M?




Yeah, that was also my assumption.  Since . . . in House of M, what she does can _only_ be compared to Wish.


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## satori01 (Apr 25, 2007)

Egres said:
			
		

> Flee the scene has a somatic component, like all the warlock's invocations.
> 
> As I said, grappled warlock are almost dead.




Where does it state that all Warlock Invocations have somatic components?

Pg 7 has one references to somatic components.  
From* Weapon & Armor Proficiency:*
"_Because the somatic components required for warlock invocations are relatively simple, a warlock can use any of his invocations while wearing light armor w/o incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance_."

Under the description for flee the scene, it state you can use Dimension Door as a spell like ability, although the range is limited to short.

The SRD list Dimension Door as:

_Dimension Door
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level: Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 4, Travel 4
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target: You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None and Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: No and Yes (object)_

SRD lists spell like abilities as:
_Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are spells and magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field)._

Which makes no mention of Spell like abilities always having somatic components.  So where does it state that Warlocks always have somatic components....if true I have been running Flee the Scene incorrectly.

As for the concentration check to cast a spell while grappled, most casters have concentration maxed out, so the DC is not that big of deal.  Much better to Flee the Scene then have the life choked out of you.  Nice thing about Flee the Scene is the illusion it leaves behind.
Warlock in my group once charmed the person, had him grapple him, and then flew the coop, leaving instructions to have his charmed buddy pretend to continue to restrain him.... a nice distraction.


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## 3d6 (Apr 25, 2007)

Complete Arcane said:
			
		

> However, like arcane spellcasters, a warlock wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure (all invocations, including _eldritch blast_, have a somatic component).



That's the second-to-last sentence in the *Weapons and Armor* section.


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## James McMurray (Apr 25, 2007)

irdeggman said:
			
		

> The Concentration DC (when grappled) is 24.




Look at that quote again. You cannot cast a spell with a somatic component inside a grapple with or without a concentration check. 

If your bonus is high enough and you're using the epic rules you can cast it at DC 50 + spell level.


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## hong (Apr 25, 2007)

Honestly, most things when grappled are kinda screwed anyway. That's why rings of freedom of movement are so useful at high levels.


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## stonegod (Apr 25, 2007)

There is a reason warlock's qualify for Sudden Still Spell.


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## irdeggman (Apr 25, 2007)

satori01 said:
			
		

> Where does it state that all Warlock Invocations have somatic components?





Found it - and it renders my notes moot.

Complete Arcane pg  71

"The only differences between invocations and other spell-like abilities is that invocations require somatic gestures and are therefore subject to arcane spell failure.”


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## pallandrome (Apr 25, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> Sorry, I thought the Fey heritage feats boost Enchantment DCs, are all these Warlock invos enchantment? I thought not.




The Fey Heritage feats boost both enchantment DCs, and Invocation DCs. That being siad, as was mentioned earlier, not all warlocks care to do that. I should have specified that such is mostly important only if you specialize in improving your Eldritch Blast.


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## Raspen (Apr 25, 2007)

i have stated that i have an epic warloc and been playing him for a long time.  i made him to be very defencive and with my best effect i still have some major holes in my D.  My AC is great do to armor and other magic items.  i will never fail a will save or fort save but my Ref save sucks realy bad and i dont have all that much HP.  other flaws are that my touch AC isnt realy good at all and the fact that i can be grapled is realy bad *tho i plain on getting boots of big steping* i do have a 50% miss that people have to get around befor grabbing me but enought attacks in a round and they will have me.  SNEAK ATTACK SUCKS FOR ME....  my spot and lisson suck not like i get that much skill points to blow in them so for me any rogue can walk up and put a dagger in my back NOT FUN...  worst part about my warloc is when i get hit be it anything im done for the next round nothing realy i can do but use magic items and most of them dont stop me from getting hit the next round and agin the round after that.....sure i have a constration cheack but im an epic lvl guy and damage from our mobs is huge.  that is the bigest flaws i fould with the D of the class.

the attacking part of the class is easy to fix with max and quicken blast and acid blast to stop SR and golams.  or wall of fires vs undead so you can do dubble damage.

but one of the most disharding things about the class is no real good counterspell ability.
sure you can use the dispell but its only a dispell and adds only 10 the other one is a touch so just dont work.


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## kigmatzomat (Apr 25, 2007)

Try voracious dispelling which is, IIRC, from complete mage.  It is a single target Dispel Magic that goes off again on the target the following round.  At epic levels d20+10 becomes kinda moot but it is still a handy trick.  

I posted this on the other warlock thread but see about getting these feats.  If nothing else the Epic Fiendish Resilience should help your hps (fast heal 25/5minutes)

http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a


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## Klaus (Apr 25, 2007)

Dude, I'll do this once for free, but please proofread what you write before posting, okay?



> I have stated that I have an epic warlock and I've been playing him for a long time. I made him to be very defensive and with my best buffs I still have some major holes in my defense. My AC is great due to armor and other magic items, I will never fail a Will or Fort save, but my Ref save sucks really bad and I don't have all that many HP.
> 
> Other flaws are that my touch AC isn't realy good at all and the fact that I can be grappled is realy bad (although I plan on getting boots of big steping). I do have a 50% miss chance that people have to get around before grabbing me, but enough attacks in a round and they will have me.
> 
> ...


----------



## Elemental (Apr 25, 2007)

irdeggman said:
			
		

> Found it - and it renders my notes moot.
> 
> Complete Arcane pg  71
> 
> "The only differences between invocations and other spell-like abilities is that invocations require somatic gestures and are therefore subject to arcane spell failure.”




Mind you, the eldritch blast is listed seperately, and doesn't seem to have the restriction that invocations do, as far as I can see. So a grappled warlock can still blast his enemy if he makes the Concentration check.


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## Raspen (Apr 25, 2007)

hehe i was waiting for someone to make mention of my spelling and wrighting sorry bout this i seem to have an inability to do such things tho i read just fine...


----------



## Zaruthustran (Apr 25, 2007)

Hammerhead said:
			
		

> Weak class, poor damage. At 12th level, my warlock has a little popgun that does 8d6 points of damage. My friend the wizard, on the other hand, shoots Scorching Rays that do 12d6 damage. Sure, my popgun has unlimited uses per day, but I haven't ever really seen the wizard run out of Scorching Rays.




Well, that's the thing. The Warlock's main strength--unlimited uses of abilities--is nullified if he adventures with even a single class that has x/day abilities. Because as soon as x comes around, the entire party will camp.

It's like Jules says: "My girlfriend's a vegetarian... which pretty much makes me a vegetarian, too."

Stick a Warlock (arcane/ranged) with a Fighter (melee/ranged), a Rogue (stealth/melee/face), and a Dragon Shaman (melee/healing), and that party can keep going 24/7. 

Or, heck, a party of four warlocks. That'd be pretty fun. One could take the PBS archery feats and eldritch spear, one could go with power attack and eldritch glaive and focus on melee, one could boost save DCs and go for crowd control, and the last could focus on social interaction and stealth (fey feats, beguiling, flee the scene, fly, invis). 

Have one PRC into the divine warlock class that allows Eldritch Blast to heal, and (when combined with scrolls and wands) you're good to go.

-z


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## pawsplay (Apr 25, 2007)

Elemental said:
			
		

> Mind you, the eldritch blast is listed seperately, and doesn't seem to have the restriction that invocations do, as far as I can see. So a grappled warlock can still blast his enemy if he makes the Concentration check.




FAQ, errata, and at least one section in the invocation section describe eldritch blast as an invocation.


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## der_kluge (Apr 25, 2007)

Raspen said:
			
		

> hehe i was waiting for someone to make mention of my spelling and wrighting sorry bout this i seem to have an inability to do such things tho i read just fine...





Klaus, I got this one for you.

translation:



> hehe - I was waiting for someone to mention my spelling and writing. Sorry about that. I seem to have an inability to write at a 6th grade level, though I can read at a 12th grade level!


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## Mistwell (Apr 25, 2007)

Raspen said:
			
		

> hehe i was waiting for someone to make mention of my spelling and wrighting sorry bout this i seem to have an inability to do such things tho i read just fine...




Don't worry Raspen.  Your spelling stinks, but your comments have merit and are worth reading.


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## Darklone (Apr 25, 2007)

Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> Well, that's the thing. The Warlock's main strength--unlimited uses of abilities--is nullified if he adventures with even a single class that has x/day abilities. Because as soon as x comes around, the entire party will camp.
> ...



Just in case it's a campaign where easy camping is possible and time isn't precious.


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## Klaus (Apr 25, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Don't worry Raspen.  Your spelling stinks, but your comments have merit and are worth reading.



 Except where he says that his epic warlock has a great AC, and then says his weak spot is his AC, because if he's hit he has to activate a magic item in the next round.

Dude, you don't have to spend cash on a weapon. Pump that into your armor! Get deflection bonus to your AC!

And the class lacks a decent counterspell (like THAT comes into play often...)? Use your Deceive Item ability and make yourself a wand of Greater Dispel Magic!

You have too few HP? Pump up your Damage Reduction (like, for instance, taking the Fey Heritage feats...  ).


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## Mistwell (Apr 25, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Except where he says that his epic warlock has a great AC, and then says his weak spot is his AC, because if he's hit he has to activate a magic item in the next round.
> 
> Dude, you don't have to spend cash on a weapon. Pump that into your armor! Get deflection bonus to your AC!
> 
> ...




Well, I thought what he had to say was worth reading.  I always prefer to hear how someone's actual character has performed in the field rather than how they might perform theoretically, and it sounds like he has some good experience using the Warlock class.  You're free to disagree


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## Zaruthustran (Apr 26, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> Just in case it's a campaign where easy camping is possible and time isn't precious.




With a good DM, that's virtually assured. A good DM won't punish the player of an X/day character. Sure, to spice things up he'll throw in a few situations where rest isn't possible. But for the most part, he'll play standard D&D: plenty of opportunities to recover spells and HP.

Given that assumption, the Warlock's main strength is nullified. If the cleric and wizard need to stop because they're out of spells, and the fighter needs to stop because he's low on HP, then the party will stop. Simple as that.

-z


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## RigaMortus2 (Apr 26, 2007)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> FAQ, errata, and at least one section in the invocation section describe eldritch blast as an invocation.




Per the Complete Arcane errata



			
				Complete Arcane errata said:
			
		

> *Invocations and Eldritch Blast*: Eldritch blast is an invocation. Other invocations provide a warlock with the ability to modify his eldritch blast or add new eldritch attacks.
> 
> Any other references claiming that eldritch blast is not an invocation should be disregarded.


----------



## Sabathius42 (Apr 26, 2007)

irdeggman said:
			
		

> Warlocks are much more likely to be one-trick ponies then are fighters.
> 
> They get few evocations (12 over 20 levels) and no bonus feats.  Warlocks can either be good blasters or use their evocations for other purposes and pretty much lose out on combat type damage (although they can be real sneaky and useful by careful selection of evocations at the expense of powering up their EB).




Use Magic Device as a Class Skill:  CHECK
Able to "Take 10" with Use Magic Device:  CHECK
Able to use every divine or arcane scroll or wand you come across:  CHECK

No way thats a one trick pony!

DS


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## irdeggman (Apr 26, 2007)

Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> Use Magic Device as a Class Skill:  CHECK
> Able to "Take 10" with Use Magic Device:  CHECK
> Able to use every divine or arcane scroll or wand you come across:  CHECK
> 
> ...





I said more likely not absolutely. I'm running a ranger/warlock in a game and we haven't really come across any magic items that he can attempt a UMD check on. So while this is very useful (and something I was counting on for versatility) if the setting is low on magic items it is not real useful - whereas if the setting is high on magic items it is extremely useful.

And except for the Take 10 class ability a rogue can do the same thing with UMD (albeit better since he has more skill points to spend). {My PC gets more mileage of the detect magic at will ability.}

They still need to put skill points into UMD (although that is a given) - and eventually they can create any magic item (oh wait they still need to have the appropriate craft feats and they don't get any bonus feats)


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## Presto2112 (Apr 26, 2007)

Warlock combined with the Whisper Gnome frpom Races of Stone makes for a supremely awesome character.  My warlock was not only essentially an Eldritch Howitzer, but he was a super scout as well.

BTW, two feats that might escape people's attention - Empower Spell-Like Ability and Quicken Spell-Like Ability.  Both applied to Eldritch Blast can be nasty.


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## irdeggman (Apr 26, 2007)

Presto2112 said:
			
		

> Warlock combined with the Whisper Gnome frpom Races of Stone makes for a supremely awesome character.  My warlock was not only essentially an Eldritch Howitzer, but he was a super scout as well.
> 
> BTW, two feats that might escape people's attention - Empower Spell-Like Ability and Quicken Spell-Like Ability.  Both applied to Eldritch Blast can be nasty.




True enough but they are pretty limiting.

3/day and the CL required is extremly high.

EB (unmodified so a 1 SL equivalent) requires a 6th level warlock to empower and a 10th level warlock to quicken. And each feat only applies to a specific combination of EB, shape and essence invocations. That is each feat applies to one thing, the PC must spend another feat to get a different combination.

But still they are useful non the less.


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## Felon (Apr 26, 2007)

Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> With a good DM, that's virtually assured. A good DM won't punish the player of an X/day character. Sure, to spice things up he'll throw in a few situations where rest isn't possible. But for the most part, he'll play standard D&D: plenty of opportunities to recover spells and HP.
> 
> Given that assumption...



It's a pretty lousy assumption to give. It's like saying it's OK a wizard to have a d4 hit die, because a good DM won't punish a character for having low hit points by killing him.

Sure, there's got to be some opportunities to rest, but there is nothing about "good DM'ing" that mandates assuring the party that they can recharge whenever they want to. If a character has abilities with X/day uses, then it's that player's responsibility to manage those resources. If that player shoots his wad, he might have to do without a wad for a while. That's not the DM "punishing" the character, that's the player facing the consequences of his own choices, as well as the limits of what his character can do.

Of course, only at very low levels is the simplistic scenario of a caster going "OK, I'm completely out of spells, we must rest" likely to happen. 10th-level wizards aren't intended to get completely tapped. A caster will deplete his top-level spells, but will still have lowbies throw around, along with wands, scrolls, and the like.


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## Felon (Apr 26, 2007)

irdeggman said:
			
		

> And each feat only applies to a specific combination of EB, shape and essence invocations. That is each feat applies to one thing, the PC must spend another feat to get a different combination.



Where'd you read that?


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## Zaruthustran (Apr 26, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> It's a pretty lousy assumption to give. Sure, there's got to be some opportunities to rest, but there is nothing about "good DM'ing" that mandates assuring the party that they can recharge whenever they want to. If a character has abilities with X/day uses, then it's that player's responsibility to manage those resources. If that player shoots his wad, he might have to do without a wad for a while. That's not the DM "punishing" the character, that's the player facing the consequences of his own choices, as well as the limits of what his character can do.




Easy there, Tiger. I'm of the mind that the DM's job is to, by collaborating with the players, provide a fun experience for all involved. That means players should be given opportunities to use their character's geewhiz powers more often than not. I regret the tangent.

Back on topic: all I'm saying is that normally a Wizard or other X/day user will expend X by the end of the day, and be able to recover and have X available the next day.

If a Warlock is in a party with X/day characters, and those characters are tapped out (in other words, they're without their powers/unable to meaningfully contribute) then a normal party in normal circumstances will camp. They'll do what it takes so that the x/day character can contribute, and--more importantly--the player of the x/day character can have fun. 

That process negates the Warlock's key advantage of unlimited uses. If the party is just going to camp whenever the other casters are out of spells, then his schtick is wasted.

-z

PS: of course certain adventures prevent camping, etc. etc. Again, the point is that the warlock really shines in a party that doesn't have characters with x/day powers.


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## Raspen (Apr 26, 2007)

been playing my warloc for a long time now and well only one time the other casters got low on spells.   and that realy wasnt too true they still had alot of spells just not thier big ones so they still did about what i do per round anyways (not counting the time i get in to melee they i always do more damage)


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## jasin (Apr 26, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> You can have a Warlock 2 with Call of the Beast and Serpent's Tongue who is a very good tracker. He gets wild empathy, speak with animals at will, scent and +5 vs. poison. Take Devil's Sight, See the Unseen and All-Seeing Eyes and you have an awesome sentry. Beguiling Influence, coupled with Intimidating Strike, Skill Focus (Intimidate) and a maximized Intimidate skill will have shaken foes left and right.



Wow, you're making me interested in the warlock. Where are the tracker invocations from?

And where are the warlock fey heritage feats from? Or are they not specific to warlocks?


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## irdeggman (Apr 26, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Where'd you read that?





Well the feat (using Qucken Spell-like ability, text is similar in Empower):




> QUICKEN SPELL-LIKE ABILITY  [GENERAL]
> Prerequisite: Spell-like ability at caster level 10th or higher.
> 
> Benefit: Choose one of the creature’s spell-like abilities, subject to the restrictions described below. The creature can use that ability as a quickened spell-like ability three times per day (or less, if the ability is normally usable only once or twice per day).
> ...





Adding the information from the table that follows (regarding SL and CL for empower and Quicken) and the warlock class description (and errata).




> Change “An eldritch blast is the equivalent of a spell
> whose level is equal to one-half the warlock’s class level (round down), with a minimum spell level of 1st and a maximum of 9th when the warlock reaches 18th level or higher” to “An eldritch blast is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell. If you apply a blast shape or eldritch  essence invocation to your eldritch blast (see page 130), your eldritch blast uses the level equivalent of the shape or essence.”
> 
> Any other references to eldritch blast being something other than the equivalent of a 1st-level spell should be disregarded.
> ...





Each Invocation is a spell-like ability with their own entries.

When a warlock adds a shape and/or esssence invocation to his eldritch spear it becaomes a unique EB with a separate SL.

Example listed on pg of CA

"His _hellrime eldritch spear _ is therfore the equivalent of a 4th-level spear ."


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## Raspen (Apr 26, 2007)

had a quick question for you guys about the acid blast.  If you hit more then one time in a round with it will the damage the second round stack?


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## sukael (Apr 26, 2007)

irdeggman said:
			
		

> "His _hellrime eldritch spear_ is therfore the equivalent of a 4th-level spell."




This is shorthand to describe an eldritch blast with the eldritch spear and hellrime blast invocations applied to it. I don't think there are many here would agree that _hellrime eldritch spear_ is an entirely new invocation, just like there aren't many who would agree that _maximized fireball_ is an entirely new spell.

The level of eldritch blast -does- change depending on what other invocations you use with it, but this simply means that you can't use both Quicken SLA, etc, and whatever invocations would raise its spell level too high.


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## pallandrome (Apr 26, 2007)

jasin said:
			
		

> Wow, you're making me interested in the warlock. Where are the tracker invocations from?
> 
> And where are the warlock fey heritage feats from? Or are they not specific to warlocks?




They Fey Heritage feats are from Complete mage. They are not specific to warlocks, but they stack nicely with Warlock DR, and at 20th level, you can have DR 10/Cold Iron, which can greatly increase your survivability in mass combat.

As for the tracker invocations, I'm having a bit of a brain fart at the moment. Can anyone else help me out here?


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## sukael (Apr 26, 2007)

pallandrome said:
			
		

> As for the tracker invocations, I'm having a bit of a brain fart at the moment. Can anyone else help me out here?




Probably either Complete Mage or Dragon Magic, both of which have new warlock invocations.


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## irdeggman (Apr 26, 2007)

sukael said:
			
		

> This is shorthand to describe an eldritch blast with the eldritch spear and hellrime blast invocations applied to it. I don't think there are many here would agree that _hellrime eldritch spear_ is an entirely new invocation, just like there aren't many who would agree that _maximized fireball_ is an entirely new spell.
> 
> The level of eldritch blast -does- change depending on what other invocations you use with it, but this simply means that you can't use both Quicken SLA, etc, and whatever invocations would raise its spell level too high.




And based on the FAQ you would appear to be correct, although the warlock's required level always adjusts based on the essence and shape.




> *If a warlock selects Ability Focus (Monster Manual, page 303) and chooses for it to affect his eldritch blast, does it still apply when he uses a blast shape or eldritch essence invocation?*
> Yes. Whether the warlock is using a frightful blast, an eldritch cone, or an utterdark eldritch doom, Ability Focus (eldritch blast) increases the save DC by +2.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Klaus (Apr 26, 2007)

jasin said:
			
		

> Wow, you're making me interested in the warlock. Where are the tracker invocations from?
> 
> And where are the warlock fey heritage feats from? Or are they not specific to warlocks?



 Call of the Beast (wild empathy, speak with animals, 24hr duration), Serpent's Tongue (scent, +5 vs. poison, 24hr. duration), All-Seeing Eyes (+6 Spot/Listen, comprehend languages [written only], 24 hr. duration) are all from Complete Mage, as are the Fey Heritage feats. There's also Otherworldly Whispers, which provides a bonus to Knowledge checks.


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## Particle_Man (Apr 26, 2007)

Raspen said:
			
		

> had a quick question for you guys about the acid blast.  If you hit more then one time in a round with it will the damage the second round stack?




Sure, why not?  First one hits the left arm, second one hits the right arm, both keep dissolving next round.


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## Raspen (Apr 26, 2007)

thanks for the info.

another good thing about the warloc is you can be a real good rogue you can mix the class between the too and keep up some of the off skills and use disimbodied hand and eye to scout/spy.

Detect magic helps a rogue out alot and you could use dispell on alot of things as well.  a wand of knock would fill in for open locks or shadder but that could get loud.

Greater invs is nice way to bump up your steath.  and the blast is a good replacement/addon for sneak attacks since its a ray.


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## pallandrome (Apr 26, 2007)

I also like them in combo with scout. the speed boost can be super nice in adding survivability.


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## Raspen (May 21, 2007)

Sorry for bringing back an old thread..

Well it happend,  I was playing last weekend and finaly hit with my epic warloc ya its taken me like 2 months of playing every weekend with this build but I got it off.

just to let you all know in our game we just roll one die and times it for damage so we dont have to roll a crazy numbers of dice.

I was hasted and used 5 charges with my warloc septure and got 5 attack with my Udderdark Glaive doing 16d6 per hit and i rolled a 5 so damage = 400 

well my GM FREAKED OUT... this is what i have to ask you guys first am i doing this right?  is my math ok?   do you think this is unbalanced?

well this is what my GM did he looked over all items in question first the glaive then lvl damage for blast *lvl 23* then the Crusable of fell power Greater and then the warloc speture...           and told me that the warloc speture only works on my first hit and not the rest I argued it but he realy didnt understand me i even pointed out that i shoulnt have to reroll SR on each attack eather but he still didnt understand me on that eather.

I droped the subject for now but if i deside to bring it back up i need a way to go about it can anyone offer any ideas?

the hole time this happend all i was thinking was i should have played a wizard and used sudden max on a disinagrate that is split rayed.


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## Plane Sailing (May 21, 2007)

Raspen said:
			
		

> just to let you all know in our game we just roll one die and times it for damage so we dont have to roll a crazy numbers of dice.




I can't speak about the warlocks, but I can say that this technique will get you crazy results on damage rolls for *anyone*, and clearly resulted in crazy damage for your PC here.

If you don't want to roll lots of dice, you might as well just assume average damage per die (e.g. 3.5 for a d6, 4.5 for a d8 and so forth). After 10d6 it is rare to get much away from the 35 average damage anyway, and this effect is accentuated as the number of dice get higher.


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## Stalker0 (May 21, 2007)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> I can't speak about the warlocks, but I can say that this technique will get you crazy results on damage rolls for *anyone*, and clearly resulted in crazy damage for your PC here.
> 
> If you don't want to roll lots of dice, you might as well just assume average damage per die (e.g. 3.5 for a d6, 4.5 for a d8 and so forth). After 10d6 it is rare to get much away from the 35 average damage anyway, and this effect is accentuated as the number of dice get higher.




Completely agree. I started taking the average when my players hit 16th level and have never looked back.

But honestly, 400 damage at epic levels is certainly in the ballpark, and is something a decently built epic fighter should be able to accomplish.


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## Darklone (May 21, 2007)

Wrote a non too optimized bard archer for level 12 as an example last week on another board who causes 100 points of damage with average rolls per round... 

A factor of 4 with 8 more levels seems rather weak for D&D power per level increase. So yes, taking into account your crazy dice roll thing, it's ok. And no, it's not a problem of the warlock class.


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## irdeggman (May 21, 2007)

Raspen said:
			
		

> I was hasted and used 5 charges with my warloc septure and got 5 attack with my Udderdark Glaive doing 16d6 per hit and i rolled a 5 so damage = 400





Maybe I'm missing something here, but how does being hasted allow multiple spell-like abilities in a round?

All of the warlock's invocations (including eldritch blast) are spell-like abilites.

As clarification (actually specifically pointing out things) from the FAQ:



> *Does the warlock’s eldritch blast require a standard action to use or does it take the place of an attack (thus making it possible to fire multiple eldritch blasts in a round if you have multiple attacks)*?
> 
> As a spell-like ability, an eldritch blast requires a standard action to use. Having a base attack bonus of +6 or greater does not allow the warlock to use his eldritch blast multiple times per round.
> 
> ...




Applying hideous blow is a spell-like ability that requires a standard action and thus can't be used with a full-attack action - so only one per round.  Haste gives an extra attack when using the full-attack action - not an extra standard action (3.0 rules).


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## Darklone (May 21, 2007)

More than one attack for the warlock? That explains this thread


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## javcs (May 21, 2007)

Irdeggman, the Glaive lets you get a full attack, insofar as I understand it, with your eldritch blast as a glaive (so melee reach, but no further).

I'm not sure where the 5th attack came from, though.


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## werk (May 21, 2007)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Sure, why not?  First one hits the left arm, second one hits the right arm, both keep dissolving next round.




Damage always stacks.


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## RigaMortus2 (May 21, 2007)

irdeggman said:
			
		

> Maybe I'm missing something here, but how does being hasted allow multiple spell-like abilities in a round?
> 
> All of the warlock's invocations (including eldritch blast) are spell-like abilites.
> 
> ...




Eldritch Glaive allows you to use a Full-Round Action to attack.  And if you have an iterative attack bonus, it allows you to use them to get multiple attacks.  It is specifically called out in the invocation.  But I don't know how he is getting 5 attacks, even with haste that would only be 4 attacks.  Do you still increase BAB when you reach Epic Levels?  If so, that would explain it...


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## Darklone (May 21, 2007)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Eldritch Glaive allows you to use a Full-Round Action to attack.  And if you have an iterative attack bonus, it allows you to use them to get multiple attacks.  It is specifically called out in the invocation.  But I don't know how he is getting 5 attacks, even with haste that would only be 4 attacks.  Do you still increase BAB when you reach Epic Levels?  If so, that would explain it...



You do increase BAB after reaching Epic Levels but you don't gain any more iterative attacks.


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## Drowbane (May 21, 2007)

Hammerhead said:
			
		

> Weak class, poor damage. At 12th level, my warlock has a little popgun that does 8d6 points of damage. My friend the wizard, on the other hand, shoots Scorching Rays that do 12d6 damage. Sure, my popgun has unlimited uses per day, but I haven't ever really seen the wizard run out of Scorching Rays. And he has all those 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th level spells.




it only took my Warlock 4 levels to realize just how badly the party wizard outclassed him. (arcane thesis: burning hands + sculpt spell... burning hands shouldn't get to be that cool!)

My 'locks only saving grace was that he was almost always able to hurt the enemy, even when the fighters and previously mentioned wizard could not (high AC, good saves, not as high Touch AC )



			
				Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> Use Magic Device as a Class Skill: level 1+
> Able to "Take 10" with Use Magic Device: level 4+
> Able to use every divine or arcane scroll or wand you come across: priceless!




Fixed that for ya


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## irdeggman (May 21, 2007)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Eldritch Glaive allows you to use a Full-Round Action to attack.  And if you have an iterative attack bonus, it allows you to use them to get multiple attacks.  It is specifically called out in the invocation.  But I don't know how he is getting 5 attacks, even with haste that would only be 4 attacks.  Do you still increase BAB when you reach Epic Levels?  If so, that would explain it...





Where is Eldritch Glaive listed?


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## Nail (May 21, 2007)

Wow, that "multi-dice calculation method" is wacked.  NOT a good idea, IMHO.


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## Egres (May 21, 2007)

irdeggman said:
			
		

> Where is Eldritch Glaive listed?



Dragon Magic.


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## irdeggman (May 22, 2007)

Raspen said:
			
		

> Sorry for bringing back an old thread..
> 
> Well it happend,  I was playing last weekend and finaly hit with my epic warloc ya its taken me like 2 months of playing every weekend with this build but I got it off.
> 
> ...





Alright I finally looked up Eldritch Glaive and I don't think you could do what you did.

Haste gives an extra attack when using the full attack action:



> When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding.




Eldritch Glaive is a full round action that lets you make multiple attacks - it is not a full attack action. It is a spell-like ability and thus doesn't qualify for the full-attack action designator.

Unless you somehow multi-classed, a warlock will not get more than 3 attacks per round based on BAB (+15/+10/+5). Epic progression specifically does not increase BAB.

I also don't think you should be able to use the Warlock Sceptor and the Eldritch Glaive at the same time.  The sceptor must be held (it is a light mace) and the glaive is a reach weapon (the weapon description in the PHB makes it a 2 handed weapon). Now, Dragon Magic does not state the glaive is "exactly like" the glaive only that it is shaped like it and is a reach weapon. So that part is my opinion - that the weapon must be wielded with two hands and not one hand. 


Also your damage was calculated incorreclty:

A 23rd level warlcok does 10d6 + the extra from the scepter +4d6 = 14d6 not 16d6. Check the errata - the epic warlock example damage is incorrect. Th text says it is +1d6 for even level after level 20 and a 20th level warlock has 9d6 damage

As far as the extra damage applying to all hits.  Well it looks like technically that is true, but I don't think the WS was designed to be used that way and I'm not real found of the way EG is written - man it is just flat out too powerful IMO even if the warlock must be within 10 feet to use it.


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## Particle_Man (May 23, 2007)

irdeggman said:
			
		

> Also your damage was calculated incorreclty:
> 
> A 23rd level warlcok does 10d6 + the extra from the scepter +4d6 = 14d6 not 16d6.




+2d6 Chasuble of Fell Power = 16d6.


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## irdeggman (May 23, 2007)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> +2d6 Chasuble of Fell Power = 16d6.





Ahh missed that one.


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## boolean (May 23, 2007)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> I can't speak about the warlocks, but I can say that this technique will get you crazy results on damage rolls for *anyone*, and clearly resulted in crazy damage for your PC here.
> 
> If you don't want to roll lots of dice, you might as well just assume average damage per die (e.g. 3.5 for a d6, 4.5 for a d8 and so forth). After 10d6 it is rare to get much away from the 35 average damage anyway, and this effect is accentuated as the number of dice get higher.




The other option is to roll some of the dice and average the rest. Rolling 4d6+21 or 2d6+28 instead of 10d6 for example. There's still some variation, so there's still the excitement of getting a good roll, or the disappointment of getting a bad one. There's still some chance and uncertainty, but less dice rolling and addition.


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## Nightfall (May 23, 2007)

Cause it shoots first and asks questions later!


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## Thurbane (May 23, 2007)

I can't help but feel that any class that gets unlimited damage dealing range attacks is a bit hinky, whether it's the Warlock with his eldritch blasts, or the Dragon Shaman with his breath weapon...maybe it's just me...


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## Nightfall (May 23, 2007)

Thurbane,

True but it's the same with near unlimited damage via sneak attack at times. I'm just saying Warlock might be hinky, but it's how the class earns its bread and butter.


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## Raspen (May 23, 2007)

ok thanks for pointing out that i dont get the extra attack for epic i fixed that and as far as the haste thing goes thats kool with me too thanks for taking the time to look that up and seeing that it dont seem to match up.

so now im down to 12d6 with 3 attacks mim 3 max 216

ok now for the septure does it work or not how does everyone feel about this?

O and my DM is saying that it dont work because it would only aply the extra 4d6 to the first hit.  How do i even argue that?


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## Danzauker (May 23, 2007)

nittanytbone said:
			
		

> There are some situations in which case Warlocks are more potent:
> 
> With a Fast-Paced DM:  Wizards (and to a lesser extent other prepared casters) thrive on downtime.  They need time to aquire new spells and copy them into their tome.  They need time to make scrolls.  They need time to sit down and memorize a proper spell loadout for the day.  If the DM keeps the party continually on the run and interrupts rest cycles, a warlock is great because he can keep going indefinitely.
> 
> ...




I think this pratically sums it up.

Every class balancement factor ulimately depends on the synergy between players and masters and their stile of gaming.

If you have no rogues in your party and the DM keeps putting traps in the dungeon, you're doomed. If you have 3 clerics, undead are a cakewalk.

I really welcomed the warlock because it extends the spectrum "easy pf play / few options <-> "difficult to run / many options", in order to accomodate a larger span of game styles. Plus it has a nice background (actually, I house-ruled the favourite class of tiefling to warlock in my games just for the flavour).

Sorcerers and warlocks are good choices for those who want a simple character able to do something, maybe of little effect, each round. Usually that thing is blasting some enemy. Of course there must always be some sort of silent accord between player and DM, even if you play a sorcerer. If your sorcerer's best spells are based on fire and you run a session where most of the opponents are resistant to fire, the party's wizard is more likely of star, since he will probably put some proverbial rabbit out of the hat that you can't do.

Warlocks are probably the best caster choice for absolute beginner, since they are almost guaranteed to be able to zap something and have some fun.

On the other side of the spectrum, I'm currently playing a ToM Binder in my current group. This goes even farther then the wizard on the "planning" side, since most of its class abilities must be chosen and kept for 24 hours. this requires a good deal of synergy with your DM, because if you choose the wrong vestige(s) you're basically wallpaper for the whole session. Since our DM is good and occasionally "spoils" a bit of information on the next session, both in game and privately, when it's really important, I sometimes ended being the pivotal character for the success of the adventure.


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