# PC Gen data sets



## LoPaC (Mar 9, 2007)

Im really new to PC Gen, as in just downloaded it and took a half hour to figure out how to get to a character screen....  I'm very used to E-Tools being straight forward

Anyways, I'm willing to give it a try, but, I'm in need to data sets for the WotC books I own.  I keep reading stuff about SRD materials being the only stuff allowed.

Does anyone know where I can find a nice little stock pile of data sets at?  More so specifically for Eberron  and FR books and The Complete series?


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Mar 9, 2007)

Not anymore.  The WotC data sets are no longer legally available since they didn't renew CMP's license.  There are still a few third-party datasets available from CMPs website.


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## Mercule (Mar 9, 2007)

There is a Yahoo! Group for PCGen Listfiles.  You won't find anything that's not open content explicitly spelled out, but it's great help to learn to do it yourself.

Unfortunately, if you're not into DYI, then you're SOL.


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## Taurendil (Mar 9, 2007)

I used the cmp datasets until recently. Now I'm just learning to do it myself. They do come in handy as examples though. 
Common things really arent't that hard. The advantage of doing it yourself is that you can concentrate on the things you really need in stead of having to buy a dataset for one or two feats.


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## Graf (Mar 9, 2007)

Once a long time ago there were datasets for PCGen and they were availible under the fair use clause and everyone was happy.

Then Code Monkey decided it would be a great business and offered one Gen Con to take the whole operation private.

So then you only got to use PcGen for the books you'd bought if you paid Code Monkey a lot of money.
Needless to say most people didn't want to pay another 100 bucks and the business dried up.

After the business went away it was easy for WotC to just pull the plug.

So, you'd think that you could, in fact, use PcGen to make characters for DnD. But, unless you're just planing on using the core books, you really can't.
Which is a shame, but some people made money out of it so it's not all bad.

Give up now. The time it takes you to mess around with the config files is far greater than the time it would take you to just work it out on a piece of paper.


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## jujutsunerd (Mar 9, 2007)

Graf said:
			
		

> Once a long time ago there were datasets for PCGen and they were availible under the fair use clause and everyone was happy.




This post contains so many factual errors and misinterpretations that I just can't be bothered to point them out.

/Jonas, trying to post without feeding the troll, but probably failing. Trolls are after all omnivorous. Especially Gloranthan ones.


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## kingpaul (Mar 9, 2007)

Graf said:
			
		

> Once a long time ago there were datasets for PCGen and they were availible under the fair use clause and everyone was happy.



PCGen was working on this assumption, yes.


			
				Graf said:
			
		

> Then Code Monkey decided it would be a great business and offered one Gen Con to take the whole operation private.



Wrong. PCGen and WotC talked at GenCon '02 to discuss our assumption that we were operating under fair use. WotC informed us that we were infringing upon their IP. CMP was born later that year, and was granted the license in early '03.


			
				Graf said:
			
		

> So then you only got to use PcGen for the books you'd bought if you paid Code Monkey a lot of money.



You didn't have to own the book, that was never a requirement. And the prices ranged from ~$2-~$7/set, depending upon the complexity of the book in question. This was you paying someone else to do the dataset for you.


			
				Graf said:
			
		

> Needless to say most people didn't want to pay another 100 bucks and the business dried up.



It wasn't $100 for each dataset. The bundles got that expensive, but that was multiple datasets at a discount.

And the business is still going, but limping.


			
				Graf said:
			
		

> After the business went away it was easy for WotC to just pull the plug.



Their license expired and was not renewed. CMP is still in existence.


			
				Graf said:
			
		

> So, you'd think that you could, in fact, use PcGen to make characters for DnD. But, unless you're just planing on using the core books, you really can't.



Not true. PCGen comes bundled with numerous datasets, and that # goes up. And there's nothing stopping someone from doing what they need for their own use.


			
				Graf said:
			
		

> Give up now. The time it takes you to mess around with the config files is far greater than the time it would take you to just work it out on a piece of paper.



I disagree, but YMMV.


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## Michael Morris (Mar 9, 2007)

Three letters Paul... XML

Until PCGen can handle that and stop using those temperamental custom text files from Hell I for one am not touching it.


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## kingpaul (Mar 9, 2007)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Until PCGen can handle that and stop using those temperamental custom text files from Hell



And that's your opinion of them. I don't find them that dificult. Once again, YMMV.


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## Mercule (Mar 9, 2007)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Three letters Paul... XML
> 
> Until PCGen can handle that and stop using those temperamental custom text files from Hell I for one am not touching it.




While I'd much prefer XML, you're exaggerating the annoyance factor of the lst files.  For the most part, they're easy to use.  

The major complication is that D&D is a game of exceptions and the PCGen coders haven't thought of a way to handle every exception.  XML won't help if the tags aren't supported, dude.


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## Nylanfs (Mar 9, 2007)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Three letters Paul... XML
> 
> Until PCGen can handle that and stop using those temperamental custom text files from Hell I for one am not touching it.




Actually coverting to XML would most likely make the data files easier to read, but much, MUCH more verbose, and believe me that matters when supporting many datasets. Just ask Barak over at CMP.


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## 2WS-Steve (Mar 10, 2007)

Nylanfs said:
			
		

> Actually coverting to XML would most likely make the data files easier to read, but much, MUCH more verbose, and believe me that matters when supporting many datasets. Just ask Barak over at CMP.




I would think that the verbosity would only be a slowdown on initial loading of the dataset -- and that after it was parsed into whatever internal format they use there wouldn't be an issue.

In fact, that's the way Hero Lab apparently handles it -- except what it does is you put together an XML dataset, then have HL append it to the database, then, in the future, it loads directly from the database. Which, I take it, makes loading faster and also allows it to retain the speed and ability to handle large quantities of data like pure database programs such as E-Tools.


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## Graf (Mar 10, 2007)

jujutsunerd said:
			
		

> This post contains so many factual errors and misinterpretations that I just can't be bothered to point them out.



Actually everything I posted is a fact.

You can spin the facts however you like (as KingPaul does) but you can't point out the "factual errors" because they don't exist.

There was once an open source project for DnD players, the people running it took it private for a payout from WotC, and the community as a whole lost out.

Now the project, which was over priced and insisted on using a weird custom data format (which they changed every couple of months) has colapsed.

OP should probably be made aware that PCGen isn't really a program for creating DnD characters (despite appearances to the contrary), it's a vehicle for Code Monkey to generate cashflow by selling datasets.

It -is- possible that WotC, finally having put the whole thing out of its misery, will come up with some other option. But until then you're really just out of luck.


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## Skaven_13 (Mar 10, 2007)

Graf said:
			
		

> Actually everything I posted is a fact.
> 
> You can spin the facts however you like (as KingPaul does) but you can't point out the "factual errors" because they don't exist.
> 
> ...




Um....wow.  Talk about a spin.  Did someone burn a copy of PCGen to cd and beat you with it?

Look, if you don't like it, you don't like it.  But get your facts straight.  From pcgen.sourceforge.net:

PCGen is free, open-source software, and is distributed under the GNU Lesser General Public License (LGPL).

Since PCGen is free, it is hard to be overpriced.  It is still an open source project.  If you don't like paying $6 on average for someone else's time to do data entry and support it, do it yourself.  The lst files are not that difficult to learn.  And yes, I have edited the lst files before.  I have used it to create characters.

The only project that is truly overpriced and probably out of its misery is eTools, and that's WOTC's and Fluid's fault, not CMP.  The data sets were still a good deal, as I didn't have to worry about entering the data myself.

Skaven13


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## karianna (Mar 10, 2007)

2WS-Steve said:
			
		

> I would think that the verbosity would only be a slowdown on initial loading of the dataset -- and that after it was parsed into whatever internal format they use there wouldn't be an issue.
> 
> In fact, that's the way Hero Lab apparently handles it -- except what it does is you put together an XML dataset, then have HL append it to the database, then, in the future, it loads directly from the database. Which, I take it, makes loading faster and also allows it to retain the speed and ability to handle large quantities of data like pure database programs such as E-Tools.




We've looked at a conversion to XML, but there were a myriad of reasons why we couldn't go there.  The main reason being that our current LST format isn't just data, it's actually a programming language in its own right and that's not easy to convert to a language which should be treated as purely representing data .  I'd love to see PCGen go to XML or some sort of embedded database, but that won't happen until we rewrite the core (version 6.0).


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## karianna (Mar 10, 2007)

Graf said:
			
		

> Actually everything I posted is a fact.




I'm afraid that some of your facts are incorrect, hopefully I can explain things clearly, Oh I'm the Chair Person of PCGen BTW and not affiliated with CMP in any way shape or form .



			
				Graf said:
			
		

> There was once an open source project for DnD players, the people running it took it private for a payout from WotC, and the community as a whole lost out.




PCGen is an open source project that is still _very_ healthy and _very_ active (a team of 60 contributors and over 6000 community members can attest to that).  As Paul stated above PCGen and WotC talked at GenCon '02 to discuss our assumption that we were operating under fair use. WotC informed PCGen that they were infringing upon their IP and PCGen realised that we'd have to remove those datasets.

Some PCGen members wanted to still be able to supply WotC datasets to the community and so they discussed that with WotC and CMP was born.  I don't think the community didn't lose out because CMP was formed, in fact CMP (or a company like CMP) was the only legal way to get WotC datasets to PCGen users.  PCGen _had_ to remove those datasets regardless of CMP forming or not.



> Now the project, which was over priced and insisted on using a weird custom data format (which they changed every couple of months) has collapsed.




"The project" I assume you mean CMP (as PCGen is a separate open source entity to CMP).  CMP simply sold WotC datasets for PCGen and was forced to use the LST data format since that is what our project uses!

I can't comment on the pricing, I code datasets for myself .

I totally agree that LST is not an ideal format for beginners, it is not just a data language, but a programming language in its own right.  Yes we will change this in the future, but that is several versions away.  Unfortunately PCGen has evolved with having to support increasingly complex rules so LST has continued to evolve quickly in order to support these complex rules.

We do provide a complete documentation set and tutorials etc to assist users but I can totally understand that it can be difficult to produce these sets (ironically this is the reason why CMP was able to sell sets, people could appreciate the time and effort to code up a complete book and were happy to pay for that).



> OP should probably be made aware that PCGen isn't really a program for creating DnD characters (despite appearances to the contrary), it's a vehicle for Code Monkey to generate cashflow by selling datasets.




Actually we have a web community of over 6000 members, so goodness knows how many more thousands of actual users actually still us PCGen for creating D&D characters (and d20 Modern characters and sidewinder characters and....).  We can legally supply the RSRD (which is the basis of the core books) which the thousands of users I've mentioned above are more than happy to use.  I could give you detailed stats on daily downloads and daily additions to our community, but I suspect I'm blathering here .  I certainly know that a majority are not CMP customers otherwise the CMP owners would have retired in the Cayman islands by now 

Hope that helps clear things up!


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## kingpaul (Mar 10, 2007)

Graf said:
			
		

> You can spin the facts however you like (as KingPaul does)



Excuse me?


			
				Graf said:
			
		

> There was once an open source project for DnD players, the people running it took it private for a payout from WotC, and the community as a whole lost out.



PCGen still exists, so I don't know where you get "there was once". It still is open. A private business was created by some of the people who were involved on PCGen's BoD, that is true.


			
				Graf said:
			
		

> Now the project, which was over priced and insisted on using a weird custom data format (which they changed every couple of months) has colapsed.



Are you referring to PCGen's *.lst format or the Access Database format that eTools uses?


			
				Graf said:
			
		

> OP should probably be made aware that PCGen isn't really a program for creating DnD characters (despite appearances to the contrary), it's a vehicle for Code Monkey to generate cashflow by selling datasets.



What?!?!?l PCGen existed before CMP was born, and it still exists. We have numerous users and volunteers. Where are you getting the info on which you are stating these "facts"?


			
				Graf said:
			
		

> It -is- possible that WotC, finally having put the whole thing out of its misery, will come up with some other option. But until then you're really just out of luck.



Both CMP and PCGen are still around.


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## jaerdaph (Mar 10, 2007)

Graf said:
			
		

> Once a long time ago there were datasets for PCGen and they were availible under the fair use clause and everyone was happy.




Can someone explain to me how distributing copyrighted material for anyone to download, whether they owned the original or not, is considered fair use?


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## DMFTodd (Mar 10, 2007)

> Can someone explain to me how distributing copyrighted material for anyone to download, whether they owned the original or not, is considered fair use?



I'm not speaking for the reasoning of PCGen in the early days, but there are a couple possibilities:

1) Game rules are not copyrightable in US law. If the datasets are purely game rules, then anyone can distribute them. That's a bit tricky though: Where do game rules end and IP, which is copyrightable, begin? 

2) Copyright law allows you to use someone's copyrighted material if the use is "transformative" and/or "limited". Is the amount of IP as opposed to game rules within the dataset "limited"? Is a dataset, in a text format with no other use than to power a character generator, a transformative use of the limited IP?

And just to comment a little bit on the above, while it was Wizard's opinion that the PCGen datasets were infringing, it was never legally challenged. PCGen certainly did not "have to" remove those datasets. They could have made the two arguments above and seen whether Wizard's was willing to serve a cease & desist.


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## Gnal (Mar 10, 2007)

DMFTodd said:
			
		

> And just to comment a little bit on the above, while it was Wizard's opinion that the PCGen datasets were infringing, it was never legally challenged. PCGen certainly did not "have to" remove those datasets. They could have made the two arguments above and seen whether Wizard's was willing to serve a cease & desist.




Correct, PCGen voluntarily removed the content that WotC said was IP. Yes, what you say is correct, maybe it was fair use, maybe it was game rules, etc.

*However* (and you knew there would be!) -
a) If WotC had complained to Yahoo that their IP was being infringed, *most* likely, the groups would have been deleted.
b) Same with Sourceforge, probably. They would have pulled the project, or at least the data portion of the project since at that time the code & data were separate (I think).
c) Merton Monk (PCGen originator) might have been taken to court if the data had not been removed, and at least in the US, being right does not always mean you win. You have to have lots of money in order to win if your opponent wants to make it difficult for you. And *nobody* on the Yahoo group, especially the most vocal complainers, ever volunteered to put their money where their mouths were.

-- david


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## jaerdaph (Mar 10, 2007)

Thanks for the input, guys. 



			
				Gnal said:
			
		

> And *nobody* on the Yahoo group, especially the most vocal complainers, ever volunteered to put their money where their mouths were.




Ain't that always the truth.


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## Glyfair (Mar 10, 2007)

Gnal said:
			
		

> a) If WotC had complained to Yahoo that their IP was being infringed, *most* likely, the groups would have been deleted.




Especially since we know that Yahoo groups that shared WotC datasets for other character generation programs have either been deleted or had their data removed.


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## Graf (Mar 11, 2007)

A lot of people have posted. I'll pick off a few of the absurd claims.

PcGen isn't open source in spirit.
*It's staffed and controlled by people who work for Code Monkey
*It constantly changed formats, invalidating everyone's previous work and denying them bug fixes, etc. 
*(as others have pointed out) refused to move to shared standard (XML, etc)
I don't really mind anything else that CM did. They made bad choices and damaged the community but I think it was more a lack of business sense than any real attempt to do harm. But the "we're really open source and work for the good of the community" stuff is, if you have -any- idea what open source is about, patently absurd.

A program that is open but crippled and controled by a private entity is open source only in name.



			
				Gnal said:
			
		

> c) Merton Monk (PCGen originator) might have been taken to court if the data had not been removed, and at least in the US, being right does not always mean you win.



The reverse way of saying this is that Merton Monk couldn't have started a company and generated revenue off the PcGen project without having WotC hit him like a ton of bricks.

If it'd stayed open source and worked under fair use clauses nobody would have gotten a cent. 
No business cards, no fancy titles, no money.

The whole "wizards made us do it", "we didn't want to start a company" stuff is fairly silly.


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## kingpaul (Mar 11, 2007)

Graf said:
			
		

> *It's staffed and controlled by people who work for Code Monkey



No, its not. Not one silverback is an agent of CMP.


			
				Graf said:
			
		

> *It constantly changed formats, invalidating everyone's previous work and denying them bug fixes, etc.



Which is part of the evolving code/data structure to handle new rule changes


			
				Graf said:
			
		

> *(as others have pointed out) refused to move to shared standard (XML, etc)



We looked at it. It would've necessitated completely scrapping the code to support it.l


			
				Graf said:
			
		

> A program that is open but crippled and controled by a private entity is open source only in name.



PCGen is not controlled by CMP. They are 2 separate entities.


			
				Graf said:
			
		

> The reverse way of saying this is that Merton Monk couldn't have start a company and generated revenue off the PcGen project without having WotC hit him like a ton of bricks.



Hunh? Bryan started PCGen to a) learn java and b) create a chargen for 3.0


			
				Graf said:
			
		

> If it'd stayed open source and worked under fair use clauses nobody would have gotten a cent.



PCGen is still open source. The code is under LGPL and the datasets under OGL.


			
				Graf said:
			
		

> The whole "wizards made us do it", "we didn't want to start a company" stuff is fairly silly.



How is the truth silly?

_edit_ that last bit sounds snippy, sorry.

However, it is the truth that PCGen thought it was operating under fair use when it distributed datasets based upon their books. When PCGen sat down with Anthony Valterra, then brand manager of D&D, he informed PCGen that what we were doing was infringing upon their IP. With that, PCGen removed the WotC based datasets and version 3.0 was born.

Bryan McRoberts, Jason Buchanon and Robert Reed started CMP and they were told to fix 40-odd bugs for eTools. They were later offered a dataset license.


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## TheYeti1775 (Mar 12, 2007)

*2 Questions for ya KingPaul or Karianna*

1st question:
Can I pay a monkey to enter in data/lst for me?  
Cause if so how much to make those Alpha Dawnforge ones into a true Production.   
I've been trying my hand at it in my spare time since downloading the new versions.  And I'm getting pretty good at banging my head into a wall.

And second one:
What all is needed in securing permission of product to be added?  Just the Author or the Publisher too?  It's a D20 product  and I've gamed with the Author.  But wanted to know your all's needs for permission.

And for all you out there with those 'illegal' copies shame on you.    You can dispose of them to this address.....          Can't blame a player for trying. haha


Thanks,
Yeti


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## kingpaul (Mar 12, 2007)

TheYeti1775 said:
			
		

> Can I pay a monkey to enter in data/lst for me?



All the PCGen data monkeys typically work on things that interest them. Though a few "squeaky wheels" have made enough noise for a source to get added.  


			
				TheYeti1775 said:
			
		

> Cause if so how much to make those Alpha Dawnforge ones into a true Production.



Alpha means they haven't been thoroughly tested. You can still use them though.


			
				TheYeti1775 said:
			
		

> What all is needed in securing permission of product to be added?  Just the Author or the Publisher too?  It's a D20 product and I've gamed with the Author.  But wanted to know your all's needs for permission.



We ask the publishing house if we can do datasets based upon their material.


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## mosat (Mar 12, 2007)

TheYeti1775 said:
			
		

> 1st question:
> Can I pay a monkey to enter in data/lst for me?
> Cause if so how much to make those Alpha Dawnforge ones into a true Production.
> I've been trying my hand at it in my spare time since downloading the new versions.  And I'm getting pretty good at banging my head into a wall.
> ...




Hi Yeti
As Paul said there's nothing preventing you from using the sets in the Alpha folder, the Alpha datasets are designated as such either because they have not had a complete review since they were entered or they is some outstanding issue that is as of yet unresolved. In the case of Dawnforge they are still in Alpha because we have not yet found a decent way to handle the Racial Talents and Transformations. There is new code which in place which will allow us to have a separate tab from which these abilies can be selected the same way feats are (as opposed to pop up choosers) which means it will be possible to change your selection of these abilities at any time. The Dawnforge sets are going to be the testbed data for this new code before we use it on the core sets so look for that early in the next cycle if it does not make it into the next production release.

To answer your last question: we usually get permission from the publisher.

To answer the first question: I'll take your money  ;-)


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## thpr (Mar 12, 2007)

Graf said:
			
		

> [PcGen is] staffed and controlled by people who work for Code Monkey




I believe this has been addressed, but as one of the most active committers I would note I haven't worked for CMP and have no intention of doing so.  

More importantly, I am one of the critical people driving the direction of PCGen, and if CMP or anyone else tried to hijack the project, I'd fork it so fast their head would spin... just as I would expect the Board of Directors to revoke my commit access if I became a liability to the project.  The board of directors _can't_ stop a fork of the code, nor can CMP.  Even _I_ can't stop a fork of the code unless the fork attempts to violate the license the code is under (LGPL).  The only thing limiting a fork of the data is permission from the publishers.  With good cause and a well written description of the reason for a fork, I doubt that issue would last more than a few weeks.



			
				Graf said:
			
		

> It constantly changed formats, invalidating everyone's previous work and denying them bug fixes, etc.




The PCGen formats have changed.  That was recognized as a problem some time ago.  Since that time, effort has been made to deprecate items across revisions, so that older data does not break.  We are making efforts to ensure a smooth transition from 5.10 to 5.12 (and to future versions going forward).

I highly doubt anyone has been denied a bug fix.  Given that the code is open source, I don't even comprehend how a fix could be denied to someone.  The production versions are maintained and criticial items are fixed (we just released a 5.10.2).  



			
				Graf said:
			
		

> (as others have pointed out) refused to move to shared standard (XML, etc)




You're seeing a conspiracy where there is none.  What happens on open source projects is that developers turn over.  Some of them have had children, others have encountered new jobs, others have simply disappeared.  This is not evil, but I think it's a testament to PCGen that there are other developers who have picked up the project and continue developing.

As someone who started coding on the PCGen project in late 2005, I think there is a major problem of knowledge concentration.  There is a bunch of undocumented code that performs what can only be described as 'deep magic'.  There are undocumented features in the LST files as well, and that has made it difficult for us to actually make a conversion to a different data format, because we can't explicitly define the new format using our documentation.

Yes, this is a problem... we know that.  We have slowly been tightening the rules on the LST syntax to eliminate some items that are not used or are old syntax (Go look at my code checkins and the posts I make to the pcgen_experimental Yahoo! group).  We have been improving our documentation (go look at the number of documentation bugs I have opened in the last 6 months).  This helps us reduce the quantity of code we are dealing with and the complexity of the LST format... this opens the possibility of another data formats.

These issues make changing some parts of the current code an extremely difficult proposition.  It's fragile and highly tangled (those are both technical terms, fragile code being code where small changes tend to produce many problems, and tangled code being code that has circular dependencies, which leads to huge complexity to make simple changes).

This has led to challenges in doing major conversions like you describe.  It is HARD (I resist stronger language because enWorld tries to produce a "family show").  I am one of the most active committers to PCGen, and I wouldn't go NEAR an XML conversion today, and that has NOTHING to do with my like or dislike for XML.  (I WILL note here that my other project, RPG-MapGen, entirely uses XML for its data storage).  I would LIKE to see a data format that is usable across tools, I would LIKE to see a saved character format that could be opened by other tools, and I think XML is a great candidate.




> If it'd stayed open source and worked under fair use clauses nobody would have gotten a cent.




Nor would anyone have had access to WotC data.

The problem is that WotC didn't feel it worked under the fair use clause.  The resources to line up a defense in federal court do NOT exist for PCGen, and never have.  The ONLY option as a response to WotC was exactly what happened (ceasing shipment of the closed content data)

I would note fair use is a general concept, and the realm of data for role playing games is NOT clearly defined.  The fact that the datasets were free (as in beer) did NOT mean they are not "commercial in nature" (the exact words in 17 USC 107(a)).  What would have happened is that WotC would have sent a cease and desist letter, and the project would have become history.

[edited to add clarity to the fork comment]


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## 2WS-Steve (Mar 12, 2007)

Honestly, the case for fair use would have been incredibly thin -- even if the PCGEN volunteers somehow had enough money or were composed entirely of Ivy League Law School grads, they'd have an uphill battle arguing that PCGEN data files were "criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research". And rightfully so.

Gamers on the internet try to hang an awful lot of responsibility on that "cannot copyright game rules" business. That guideline means that people could write a game like D&D -- such as Rolemaster, HARP, or any of the myriad knockoffs with various rules changes that we've seen.

It does not mean that you can copy Tome of Magic just so long as you leave out the flavor text.

I was under the impression -- and I think this is legitimate -- that the original PCGEN team was operating under more of a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. It benefits the players of D&D to have a character generator. WotC knows this but, at first, might not have been planning on official support. WotC, however, can't give explicit approval to such a thing since doing so might weaken future claims they have to enforce their IP or trademarks. But if everything is done off the books, everyone can be happy.

I suspect this might be the way things are effectively working now, at least until WotC comes out with a new generator. And I know it's the way things work with the various support software (such as Card Vault) for games like Magic the Gathering.


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## Michael Morris (Mar 12, 2007)

thpr said:
			
		

> These issues make changing some parts of the current code an extremely difficult proposition.  It's fragile and highly tangled (those are both technical terms, fragile code being code where small changes tend to produce many problems, and tangled code being code that has circular dependencies, which leads to huge complexity to make simple changes).




If the code is really in that bad a shape it's time to dump it and start the 6.0 branch guys. Seriously.


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## thpr (Mar 13, 2007)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> If the code is really in that bad a shape it's time to dump it and start the 6.0 branch guys. Seriously.




*laughs*

You mean like this?

http://pcgen.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pcgen/branches/cdom/


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## Michael Morris (Mar 13, 2007)

Heh.. I guess.

One of these days I'll get ENW's 2.0 branch done.


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## TheYeti1775 (Mar 13, 2007)

mosat said:
			
		

> Hi Yeti
> As Paul said there's nothing preventing you from using the sets in the Alpha folder, the Alpha datasets are designated as such either because they have not had a complete review since they were entered or they is some outstanding issue that is as of yet unresolved. In the case of Dawnforge they are still in Alpha because we have not yet found a decent way to handle the Racial Talents and Transformations. There is new code which in place which will allow us to have a separate tab from which these abilies can be selected the same way feats are (as opposed to pop up choosers) which means it will be possible to change your selection of these abilities at any time. The Dawnforge sets are going to be the testbed data for this new code before we use it on the core sets so look for that early in the next cycle if it does not make it into the next production release.
> 
> To answer your last question: we usually get permission from the publisher.
> ...



So when do we see the new code?    

And I'll see how many bannanas I can throw to the monkey.  My CFO (wife) doesn't always release the purse strings for me.


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## labyrinth (Mar 13, 2007)

2WS-Steve said:
			
		

> I would think that the verbosity would only be a slowdown on initial loading of the dataset -- and that after it was parsed into whatever internal format they use there wouldn't be an issue.
> 
> In fact, that's the way Hero Lab apparently handles it




I've been learning how all this stuff works by writing my own data files, so I'll chime in here. Hero Lab uses XML for its data files. Hero Lab compiles those data files into a run-time format. This run-time format is optimized for load and run performance. So the overhead cost of XML is only incurred when you add new material, after which that material is re-compiled into a new set of run-time files. Those files then load in an instant and run blazingly fast.

It's a vastly different approach from PCGen. And, for my money, a vastly better solution.


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## labyrinth (Mar 13, 2007)

Mercule said:
			
		

> The major complication is that D&D is a game of exceptions and the PCGen coders haven't thought of a way to handle every exception.  XML won't help if the tags aren't supported, dude.




So painfully true. This is one of key reasons I like Hero Lab. It's scripting language allows the easy handling of all the exceptions I've run into so far in creating data files. Doing everything via tags and such requires that the program authors think of all the necessary tags in advance. Whereas, if I have the flexibility to write scripts with my own logic in them, the tool can handle lots of things that the authors never anticipated.


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## labyrinth (Mar 13, 2007)

Skaven_13 said:
			
		

> Since PCGen is free, it is hard to be overpriced.  It is still an open source project.  If you don't like paying $6 on average for someone else's time to do data entry and support it, do it yourself.  The lst files are not that difficult to learn.  And yes, I have edited the lst files before.  I have used it to create characters.




While PCGen is free, the data files for WotC material are no longer available from CMP, so those files have to be created. The net result is that PCGen is only "free" in terms of DOLLARS. There is also the question of TIME. My time is valuable to me, so I'm going to use a tool that is EASIER and FASTER to create the data files I need. I also prefer a tool that makes it easy for me and others in my group to share the data files we've created. 

Since I have to create the files myself, the extra one-time cost of $30 for a tool that saves me vast amounts of time in creating the data files I need is money well-spent. I use the $30 amount, since that's what most of the non-free tools cost. If using PCGen takes me an hour longer to learn and then create data files, I'm better off with another tool. 

For me, the easiest tool so far has been Hero Lab. It took no time at all to learn the basics. Admittedly, it took me longer to learn in-depth how to create specialized data files than two of the other tools I tried, but not much longer. Most importantly, it has allowed me to implement things the other tools couldn't readily support. Besides, the Hero Lab UI is MUCH more to my liking than the other tool options, but that's just a personal aesthetics thing.


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## Skaven_13 (Mar 14, 2007)

labyrinth said:
			
		

> While PCGen is free, the data files for WotC material are no longer available from CMP, so those files have to be created. The net result is that PCGen is only "free" in terms of DOLLARS. There is also the question of TIME. My time is valuable to me, so I'm going to use a tool that is EASIER and FASTER to create the data files I need. I also prefer a tool that makes it easy for me and others in my group to share the data files we've created.
> 
> Since I have to create the files myself, the extra one-time cost of $30 for a tool that saves me vast amounts of time in creating the data files I need is money well-spent. I use the $30 amount, since that's what most of the non-free tools cost. If using PCGen takes me an hour longer to learn and then create data files, I'm better off with another tool.
> 
> For me, the easiest tool so far has been Hero Lab. It took no time at all to learn the basics. Admittedly, it took me longer to learn in-depth how to create specialized data files than two of the other tools I tried, but not much longer. Most importantly, it has allowed me to implement things the other tools couldn't readily support. Besides, the Hero Lab UI is MUCH more to my liking than the other tool options, but that's just a personal aesthetics thing.




But the point I was trying to make was that the tool known as PCGen could not overpriced because there was no monetary cost involved.  And if time is valuable, then the small amount that the datasets cost was definitely a value, as it kept me from entering and testing the data myself.

The best tool is going to be the one that each person is comfortable with.  I could probably write a data file in XML just as well as I could write a data file in PCGen's lst format, and I still tool around in Access for eTools.

I looked at hero lab, but I don't really care for the interface, which just comes down to a personal preference.


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## labyrinth (Mar 14, 2007)

Skaven_13 said:
			
		

> But the point I was trying to make was that the tool known as PCGen could not overpriced because there was no monetary cost involved.  And if time is valuable, then the small amount that the datasets cost was definitely a value, as it kept me from entering and testing the data myself.




Ah! Sorry for the confusion. I didn't recognize that you were focused on the past (i.e. when you bought all the data sets). I was focused on the situation NOW, where no data sets are available anymore and everyone has to enter their own data, regardless of the tool used. If the data sets were still available, that would be a definite advantage to PCGen. Alas, that advantage has now vaporized, so the ability to easily add custom material has become a critical element for anyone who doesn't play a basic SRD game.


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## kingpaul (Mar 14, 2007)

labyrinth said:
			
		

> so the ability to easily add custom material has become a critical element for anyone who doesn't play a basic SRD game.



And I've said it before, YMMV on data entering. I don't find PCGen's method cumbersome, but I have been doing it since the 1.4.x days. We also provide documentation on how to enter items.


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## Thurbane (Mar 20, 2007)

I had a crack at entering custom data for Knight and Beguiler character classes, and I gave up pretty quickly. I have pretty good general IT skills and have done some programming in C++...

Not so much a criticism, but if there are any good tutorials someone could point me to?


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## kingpaul (Mar 20, 2007)

Thurbane said:
			
		

> Not so much a criticism, but if there are any good tutorials someone could point me to?



There's the documentation that comes with the program and our List File Help group.


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## Thurbane (Mar 20, 2007)

Thanks for that.

..and thanks for the excellent program. PCGen rocks.


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## Mercule (Mar 20, 2007)

Thurbane said:
			
		

> but if there are any good tutorials someone could point me to?




Definitely look at the documentation that came with PCGen.  The List File Class is a good place to start.  Most of the time, I have the tag index (in the help file) open in one window while I'm editting my datasets in another.  I just wish I had two monitors at home.


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## Graf (Mar 20, 2007)

labyrinth said:
			
		

> Ah! Sorry for the confusion. I didn't recognize that you were focused on the past (i.e. when you bought all the data sets). I was focused on the situation NOW, where no data sets are available anymore and everyone has to enter their own data, regardless of the tool used. If the data sets were still available, that would be a definite advantage to PCGen. Alas, that advantage has now vaporized, so the ability to easily add custom material has become a critical element for anyone who doesn't play a basic SRD game.




This is the heart of the issue.
If they had included an easy method of selecting class features or entering data then you wouldn't be as driven to buy their data sets.

This is a classic problem when Open Source programs go private. What's benefitial for the community and what's benefitial for the (now private even if they keep some superfical open source stuff around) developer are at odds.

The profit incentive is extremely powerful, if PcGen had remained open source and independent I don't think you would have seen as many updates with zero backwards compadibility (i.e. they were good for people buying the data sets and bad for everyone else).

It's basically just marketing. Microsoft did the same thing with Word.

But, yes, that should be something you think about before you decide to start installing everything in their custom format.


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## thpr (Mar 20, 2007)

Graf said:
			
		

> This is the heart of the issue.




Your post qualifies as libel. You may wish to edit it and/or apologize.

[edited, ironically, for a typo]


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## schporto (Mar 21, 2007)

Graf said:
			
		

> The profit incentive is extremely powerful, if PcGen had remained open source and independent I don't think you would have seen as many updates with zero backwards compadibility (i.e. they were good for people buying the data sets and bad for everyone else).
> 
> It's basically just marketing. Microsoft did the same thing with Word.



(note some heavy sarcasm here)
I know I was so upset when they Mosaic moved into netscape, and then into mozilla, I mean geez they never posted the CSS scripts back to mosaic.  What the heck?  I paid good money (all of 0$ !!!) for that mosaic program.  And now, NOW they won't even acknowledge there may be some issues with it.  I mean really it's all netscape's fault.
And yes I really do think it's the same thing.
-cpd


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## jujutsunerd (Mar 21, 2007)

thpr said:
			
		

> Your post qualifies as libel. You may wish to edit it and/or apologize.
> 
> [edited, ironically, for a typo]




Probably best to not feed the troll. Just add it to your ignore list.

/Jonas, following his own advice


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## Firzair (Mar 21, 2007)

karianna said:
			
		

> We've looked at a conversion to XML, but there were a myriad of reasons why we couldn't go there.  The main reason being that our current LST format isn't just data, it's actually a programming language in its own right and that's not easy to convert to a language which should be treated as purely representing data .  I'd love to see PCGen go to XML or some sort of embedded database, but that won't happen until we rewrite the core (version 6.0).



Hm... if the problem lies in xml not being a programming language why don't you change the view on xml: take reanjir's RPGL aproach (which I use in my RPG XML rules engine) and use it as a programming language.
Here's an example from my data/rpgl files that calculates the ability modifier:

```
<function name="recalc-ability-mod" attach=".abilities.*.current" attachobj="creature" when="on-change">
    <set name="ability">
      <get-varname-part varname="[fullname]" pattern=".abilities.*.current" />
    </set>
    <if>
      <is-set name=".abilities.[ability].base" />
      <set name=".abilities.[ability].mod">
        <subtract>
          <divide round="down">
            <a default="10">.abilities.[ability].current</a>
            <a>2</a>
          </divide>
          <a>5</a>
        </subtract>
      </set>
      <set name=".abilities.[ability].mod">
        <a>0</a>
      </set>
    </if>
  </function>
```
This function is attached to the on-change event of all abilities cuurent score. It figures out which ability was changed and the recalculates the modifier for the ability.
RPGL is really nice because the xml is already in token form that can be easily converted to an internal object code structure and it's easy to comprehend.

Greetings
Firzair


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## labyrinth (Mar 21, 2007)

Thurbane said:
			
		

> I had a crack at entering custom data for Knight and Beguiler character classes, and I gave up pretty quickly. I have pretty good general IT skills and have done some programming in C++...
> 
> Not so much a criticism, but if there are any good tutorials someone could point me to?




If you run out of patience, you might want to give Hero Lab a try. I haven't tried adding either of the above two classes yet. However, I've had zero trouble adding the ones that I HAVE tried.

Before you add new classes, add some other stuff to get the hang of it, since classes are the most complex in all the tools I've tried. This suggestion probably holds true for all of the tools. Once I had the hang of things, adding classes worked reasonably well for me with Hero Lab.


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## Henry (Mar 21, 2007)

Graf said:
			
		

> This is the heart of the issue.
> If they had included an easy method of selecting class features or entering data then you wouldn't be as driven to buy their data sets.




To be fair:

1) PCGen is NOT Codemonkey publishing.

2) PCGen IS open by the terms of the LPGL (as far as I know still). It is not "closed" in a legal sense.

3) PCGen grew from a stable of programmers in their free time following the original LST files design as laid down by its originator. It was not ever "closed" in any sense, and someone who wanted to put the work in to fork the code base all on their own or with another group could feel free to. Pick another name besides PCGen, take the best bits of coding, and have at it!


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## Nylanfs (Mar 22, 2007)

Gnal said:
			
		

> c) Merton Monk (PCGen originator) might have been taken to court if the data had not been removed, and at least in the US, being right does not always mean you win. You have to have lots of money in order to win if your opponent wants to make it difficult for you. And *nobody* on the Yahoo group, especially the most vocal complainers, ever volunteered to put their money where their mouths were.
> 
> -- david




Umm no there were several people that were willing to help Merton financially in a legal battle. But he choose not to fight a legal battle with the very limited budget we could have provided. Yes I was one that volunteered asistance


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