# Point buy vs. rolling



## Sir Osis of Liver (Mar 13, 2002)

I was just woundering how many of you prefure point buy to the standard rolling method for character generation?

I've noticed it's very popular with the on board games, which makes sense. It keeps people honest, but how many of you use it in your games at home?


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## Axiomatic Unicorn (Mar 13, 2002)

I use point buy.

I think there is value in every character having the exact same options.

Plus, IME, rolling methods tended to become, re-rolling sessions until you got something you accepted.  So why not cut to the chase?

On the other hand, rolling was "The Way" for a long time, so I understand why some people would prefer to stay with it.


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## Caliban (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: Piont buy vs. rolling*



			
				Sir Osis of Liver said:
			
		

> *I was just woundering how many of you prefure point buy to the standard rolling method for character generation?
> 
> I've noticed it's very popular with the on board games, which makes sense. It keeps people honest, but how many of you use it in your games at home? *




I only use point buy, I don't like the variable power levels that rolling produces. 

Other people prefer rolling, they don't like the tendency of certain character concepts to have exactly the same stats.  (i.e. once you find the "best" way to make a character, why spend your points differently?)

I will now bow out before the "Dice vs. Point Buy" jihad starts again.


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## Crothian (Mar 13, 2002)

We like the gamble of the dice.  Also, I find to amny people min max with point buy and that's much harder to do with a set of randomly generated numbers.  It also adds a certain amount of excitment in character generation as people warm up their dice, have roll offs with their dice to see which they will use, or other odd gamer dice superstitions we have.


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## DMaple (Mar 13, 2002)

We have used point buy for Star Wars (although I think it was 28 or 30 points) and rolling for D&D, don't ask me why? I guess its because of what we are use to being old D6 Star Wars players in the past point buy seemed natural for D20 Star Wars.


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## Psychotic Dreamer (Mar 13, 2002)

In the past I have usually used rolling.  Lately I have been using the point buy method.  I usually go with 32 or 34 points.


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## kenjib (Mar 13, 2002)

Has anyone tried a hybrid model?  For a rough examle/first draft:

1.  Roll 3d6 for each stat in order and take all scores where they fall - no rearranging or reassigning.
2.  Spend 12 points as per point buy rules to increase the rolled stats.  You gain no benefit from decreasing a stat below the value of your initial roll.

I think this could make for an interesting combination of nature/nurture.  I have no idea how many points would be good for step 2 though.  Has anyone tried something like this?  Is it a good or bad idea?


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Mar 13, 2002)

Never used Point buy, and I never will.


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## Simon Magalis (Mar 13, 2002)

It depends on the group, but I like to do both.


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## Desdichado (Mar 13, 2002)

We typically use rolling, but I would prefer point buy.  kenjib, I might use your hybrid method next time I DM.


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## UofMDude (Mar 13, 2002)

We use point buy.  Rolling is alot of fun but it can lead to situations where one character is a god compared to others in the same party.  In our first 3e campaign one character was (I think) a 48-52 point buy character while another was 24-ish.  Needless to say the weaker character was mostly useless (he was a cleric to boot!).  Much higher stats can make a several (character) level difference in power and I do not think that makes for a good campaign (at least how we play).

We play pretty powerful though.  Our campaigns are ususally 32-36 with the point buy system.

UofMDude


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## nsruf (Mar 13, 2002)

kenjib said:
			
		

> *2.  Spend 12 points as per point buy rules to increase the rolled stats.  You gain no benefit from decreasing a stat below the value of your initial roll.
> 
> I think this could make for an interesting combination of nature/nurture.  I have no idea how many points would be good for step 2 though.  Has anyone tried something like this?  Is it a good or bad idea? *




How about basing the points on the sum of all stat rolls, i.e. someone with a bad roll gets more points to spend? I haven't tried this option out, though - so far I always used point-buy for fairness. But it could look like this:

1. Roll 3d6 in order for all stats.

2. If you have less than 75 points, you get halve the difference to 80 as points to distribute freely (or via point-buy rules), as long as you raise no score above 18 before adjustments.

3. If you have 75 or more points total, you get 3 points to spend freely.

Have to admit I am not sure about the numbers, either


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## Kraedin (Mar 13, 2002)

Point buy, ever since one of my players rolled up, sitting in front of me, an 18, 18, 17, 16, 15, 10 charecter.  He overshadowed the rest of the group for obvious reasons.


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## Dareoon Dalandrove (Mar 13, 2002)

I have heard of many differnt systems for the point buy system what is the most common?


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## LostSoul (Mar 13, 2002)

At one point I rolled: 18, 17, 18, 17, 18, 8.

I like point buy better.


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## Psion (Mar 13, 2002)

Roll with a fairly generous minimum and GM intervention policy.

Point buy - S&P taught me the folly of that.

(Instert standard vitriolic flame war full of word-mincing about who is right here.)

That is all.


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## kenjib (Mar 13, 2002)

I like that alot alot alot nsruf!!!  Here's my own revised version with your idea incorporated.

1. Roll 3d6 for each stat in order and take all scores where they fall - no rearranging or reassigning.

2.  At the DM's option you may be allowed to swap a single pair of ability scores.*

3. Calculate your point total as if you had created this character with the standard point buy rules.

4.  Consult your DM regarding the baseline for the campaign (25 point, 28 point, 32 point, etc.).**

5.  If your character as rolled has a total point value greater than the baseline amount, congratulations!  You get 4 additional points to spend at will as per the point buy rules.

6.  If your character as rolled has a point total less than the baseline amount, subtract your total from the baseline.  You may spend the greater of 4 or this value at will as per the point buy rules.

* I added this step because if step 5 applies to you, you would otherwise have very limited control over your character's stats, thus limited opportunity to play the class you want effectively.

** When determining this baseline, DM's should consider that it is possible for a character to end up with a character 4 or more points higher than this value.  This is not a hard upper limit as it is under standard point buy rules.  It is, rather, a minimum.

Now there's is still one variables that need to be tweaked to get the system working - the minimum of 4 points to spend.  I'm still not sure about this value.  What do you think now?


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## Sir Osis of Liver (Mar 13, 2002)

BTW, i didn't realize this was a sensitve topic, i was just wondering about preferances. 

So lets try to aviod any flaming, please.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 13, 2002)

The only problem I generally have with rolling is that somebody usually ends up too powerful or too weak.

You could let the players get their dicing jollies by doing a communal rolling session.

Everybody rolls 4d6 and generates 6 scores. The DM keeps track of every roll and then hands out the highest scores around the table, then the next highest, and so on.

Maybe allow each player to keep his one highest stat and/or force them to keep their one lowest.

Wulf


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## KarinsDad (Mar 13, 2002)

I love rolling, but I prefer point buy.

The obvious reasons are that there are no fudging and that characters can be created before the group ever gets to the gaming table. You can easily figure out exactly where points came from. Even for higher level characters who have bumped up scores due to level 4, 8, etc.

The main problem with rolling is that wide range of scores. In every 3E campaign where we have done rolling, we have had at least one low 20 score character and one or more low to high 50 score characters.

This just isn't that much fun for some people. Yes, some people get a low stat character and shrug and roleplay it. Other people do not have that type of personality (I'm one of them. I want to play heroes, not wimps  ).


In our current campaign, the DM made it 34 point buy for humans, 32 point buy for non-humans. I think this is the correct idea, but he should have made it 36 and 32. The reason is that virtually every non-human bumps up a stat of 14 or higher, hence, they gain 4+ point buy points right there. I think 2 was not enough. JMO.


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## Sir Osis of Liver (Mar 13, 2002)

I like the higher points for humans idea it definatly would be a cool way to even things out stat wise for humans, and would be a nice way to encourage players to go human in any campaign that focuses on humans over other races.


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## Axiomatic Unicorn (Mar 13, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *
> Point buy - S&P taught me the folly of that.
> *




Could you please clarify that?

I never used S&P, so I don't knwo what you are refering to, but I have used point buy a lot and found no "folly" in it.

I am not saying you are wrong, I just honestly don't know what you mean.


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## Zappo (Mar 13, 2002)

I always use point buy. I even assign fixed HP at every new level. I don't like the different power levels that randomness generates.


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## orion winterfire (Mar 13, 2002)

im a roller.  i have always hated point buy . . . more so as i have gained gaming experience.  the peak had been 3e.  there are just too many options out there, and i would take hours deciding on points.  i just roll my stats, down the line, and use what i get to decide what i want to play.  who would ever play a wizard with 14 int and 18 str with point buy???  random rolls also keep more options open as opposed to point buy (unless youre doing high point totals), like the character i had that ended up being a rogue/wizard/fighter/spellsword . . . if i hadnt rolled really well for her stats, she wouldnt have been viable, and she was a blast to play.
a player i dm'ed, usually a min/maxer  power gamer ended up with a cleric with dex & cha 8, which never would have happened if he was using with point buy.  that character ended up founding a religion and became an icon of the campaign world. (and that players favorite character)
generally, i just find points too artificial.
i have condidered using point buy when i dm, esp after reading this thread, but my players are so used to the *possibility* of great scores, they would insist on a lot of points.  to many.  i may play with the point & roll stuff youve been discussing here, though.  that definitely has possibilities.


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## Jax (Mar 13, 2002)

we vary...   often use the following though


roll 4d6 take the top 3, reroll 1's (and 2's dending on the game)


Otherwise I prefer the point-buy method.  Everyone stays fairly well the same.  Yea someone could min-max it but they'd be hurting themselves badly in teh process.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Mar 13, 2002)

Zappo said:
			
		

> *I always use point buy. I even assign fixed HP at every new level. I don't like the different power levels that randomness generates. *




Wow.  I couldn't play in a game like that.


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## Deadguy (Mar 13, 2002)

Personally, I would always Point Buy if possible. There's little point in repeatedly re-rolling to get the character you want (and many DMs effectively handle it that way, though YEMV).

But for those who would be interested in a variation of the Hybrid system, the old _Dragonquest_ RPG had a peculiar method. Basically you rolled on a table to see how many Points you got to spend on building your character. Sounds weird? Well, the additional element was that the _maximum_ score you could buy was governed by the same die roll, and it was counterintuitive: the _more_ points that you got to spend on building your character, the _lower_ the maximum score you could assign!

The idea is that the truly exceptional person is very very focussed, and so has generally poor scores to compensate. At the other extreme you have the good all-rounder: no very high scores but no low or average scores either.

I'm not quite sure how you'd put it together, but if someone wants to try I could try and dig out the game (might take a whiles since it's in storage).


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## Ridley's Cohort (Mar 13, 2002)

I prefer point buy.

The downside is it really hurts paladins and monks because both are very stat intensive.  A low level monk with point buy is nearly unplayable IMNSHO.


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## The Cardinal (Mar 13, 2002)

point buy


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## Psion (Mar 13, 2002)

Axiomatic Unicorn said:
			
		

> *I never used S&P, so I don't knwo what you are refering to, but I have used point buy a lot and found no "folly" in it.
> *




I really had hoped not to get involved with it.

Referring to S&P, it was the first really point buy system for D&D and it showed me the ugly side of min/maxing. The characters seemed hopelessly distorted if the player was willing to specialize.

I rather prefer the idea of assigning your best stat instead of having "sacrificial stats".

And that's about all I am willing to say. If you like point buy, fine, have fun with it. I am not going to get in another flame war:
1) Today, in general.
2) On this topic, ever.


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## gustavef (Mar 13, 2002)

*Just and old fashion cowboy*

Personaly, I like the risk and reward of rolling.  But with out some intervention on the part of the DM, characters can be too powerful or too weak, compaired to the rest of the party.

I never did point but charaters in earlier versions of DnD since all stats were far from eqaul.  Now, every stat has it uses.  Maybe not to all characters all the time, but they have uses.  

I agree that point buy characters are too "effecient" and rolled characters can be to "varient."  So in the end, neither system is better.  The solve different problems.

-gustavef


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## Nail (Mar 13, 2002)

Our group has always used the 4d6 method, rearrange as desired, tho' we also allow the player ta roll up 2 sets of stats in that manner -- then pick the best set.  Avoids the unpleasantries of low stats, but allows for the fun o' chance.

An' the 5d6 method isn't as outlandish as ya might think.....

To be honest, the method mentioned of rolling 3d6 and then adding a few extra points intriqued me........

-Nail


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## Axiomatic Unicorn (Mar 13, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I really had hoped not to get involved with it.
> 
> ...




Thanks.  I understand not wanting to go on a tangent.

You do make a good point however.  I have seen some Int 8, Wis 8, Chr 8 fighters.  It is a weakness of point buy.


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## kenjib (Mar 13, 2002)

Okay, I'm going to try out my system using a 25 point baseline and no fudging.  I realized that I had to add two clarifications to get the system working:

1.  When calculating point total, any score of 8 or lower is worth 0 points.
2.  Raising any score from 3 to 7 is done on a point for point basis.

ATTEMPT 1 - THE FIGHTER

Roll 1: 1, 1, 4 = 6 = Str
Roll 2: 2, 1, 6 = 9 = Dex
Roll 3: 4, 1, 1 = 6 = Con
Roll 4: 5, 6, 2 = 13 = Int
Roll 5: 6, 6, 6 = 18 = Wis
Roll 6: 2, 1, 6 = 9 = Cha

I'll swap wisdom and strength.  Total point value is 22, 3 below baseline.  This means I get 4 points to spend.  I'm putting them all into con, giving me:

Str:  18
Dex:  9
Con:  10
Int:  13
Wis:  6
Cha:  9

I qualify for expertise and have a devastating strength but suffer from some drawbacks as a result of natural shortcomings.  The low wisdom is quirky and could be fun.


ATTEMPT 2 - THE WIZARD

Roll 1: 1, 5, 5 = 11 = str
Roll 2: 4, 2, 4 = 10 = dex
Roll 3: 3, 3, 3 = 9 = con
Roll 4: 5, 3, 5 = 13 = int
Roll 5: 1, 2, 6 = 9 = wis
Roll 6: 5, 4, 5 = 14 = cha

I'll swap charisma and constitution.  Total point value is 18.  This gives me 7 extra points to spend.  I'll bump int to 16, costing 5 points, then dex to 12, costing 2 more.

str:  11
dex:  12
con:  14
int:  16
wis:  9
cha:  9

Nice - pretty close to what you'd get with standard point spread but a little bit tweaked to account for natural ability.

ATTEMPT 3 - THE ROGUE

Roll 1: 4, 4, 3 = 11 = str
Roll 2: 6, 1, 5 = 12 = dex
Roll 3: 2, 5, 6 = 13 = con
Roll 4: 1, 6, 2 = 9 = int
Roll 5: 3, 1, 3 = 7 = wis
Roll 6: 5, 4, 6 = 15 = cha

I'll swap dex and cha.  Total point value is 21.  I get four more points to spend.  I'll bump dex to 16, and raise int and wis both by 1.

str:  11
dex:  16
con:  13
int:  10
wis:  8
cha:  12

Nice - very workable.  It's close to standard point spread but the abilities aren't quite where a rogue would most likely place them.


ATTEMPT 4 - THE CLERIC

Roll 1: 5, 5, 4 = 14 = str
Roll 2: 3, 3, 1 = 7 = dex
Roll 3: 1, 6, 1 = 8 = con
Roll 4: 2, 1, 1 = 4 = int
Roll 5: 3, 4, 1 = 8 = wis
Roll 6: 3, 6, 6 = 15 = cha

I'll swap cha and wis.  Total point value is 14 so I get 11 points to spend.  I'll raise wis by 1 (to 16), int to 8, con to 10, dex to 8, and cha to 10.

str:  14
dex:  8
con:  10
int:  8
wis:  16
cha:  10

Definitely workable but a bit quirky, which is fun.  Getting out of the "4 int pit" hurt some but the character is still workable.

ATTEMPT 5 - THE MONK

Roll 1: 5, 4, 4 = 13 = str
Roll 2: 4, 1, 4 = 9 = dex
Roll 3: 2, 3, 4 = 9 = con
Roll 4: 4, 3, 4 = 11 = int
Roll 5: 5, 3, 6 = 14 = wis
Roll 6: 3, 2, 4 = 9 = cha

I'll swap int and dex.  Total point value is 17, giving me 8 points to distribute.  I'll raise wisdom to 16, dex to 14, and con to 10.

str:  13
dex:  14
con:  10
int:  9
wis:  16
cha:  9

Looks almost like yer standard monk.


SUMMARY
From this limited test sample the results seem very similar to standard point buy, but eliminate the problem with characters choosing the same point spread for the same character classes.  In addition, they provide the off chance of creating a very quirky character, like the fighter example, or a very exceptional character through extreme luck (considering you roll straight 3d6 not 4d6 drop lowest) of the dice, which did not chance to happen with my test cases but would no doubt eventually occur on a rather rare basis.  All of the characters are quite viable.

I starting to like this system and I think I'm going to use it from now on.  Maybe I'll run some more test cases.  For anyone else that wants to, there is an online die roller here that helps generate the initial stat rolls quickly - just make sure to modify the settings because the web site defaults to 4d6 drop lowest:  http://www.irony.com/igroll.html


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## Axiomatic Unicorn (Mar 13, 2002)

Kenjib,

I like it.

One odd thing, the lower you roll, the more you get to customize.  Is that good?


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## Crothian (Mar 13, 2002)

kenjib said:
			
		

> *Okay, I'm going to try out my system using a 25 point baseline and no fudging.  I realized that I had to add two clarifications to get the system working:
> *




I'm intrigued by your system and I have only one general comment.  It might be best to roll the character up and then choose class.  Let's face it, most people would go to their strength.  That is the way I've always done it when stats were rolled in a specific order.  I don't know how many people havea the exact character in mind that they will play before they even start character generation.  For us, we always have a semi balanced party, so no character idea is ever set in stone.


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## kenjib (Mar 13, 2002)

Yowser!  I tried rolling a set of stats one more time and with the results I got had to try it out.

ATTEMPT 6 - THE BARBARIAN

Roll 1: 5, 4, 5 = 14 = str
Roll 2: 5, 3, 5 = 13 = dex
Roll 3: 4, 6, 5 = 15 = con
Roll 4: 4, 2, 2 = 8 = wis
Roll 5: 2, 2, 3 = 7 = int
Roll 6: 6, 6, 6 = 18 = cha

I'll swap cha and str.  Total point value is 35 - far above the baseline.  That means I get 4 points to spend.  I'll raise con to 16 and dex to 14.

str:  18
dex:  14
con:  16
wis:  8
int:  7
cha:  14

This guy's a hulking brute of a combat monster and likable, with a great presence, despite being somewhat slow on the pickup and thick in the head.  He's your basic cuddly grizzly bear.  Here's an example of that "luck of the dice" character in any case, but the stats still aren't min-maxed into the most efficient configuration.  Notice how I was forced into keeping a high charisma, which would normally be the #1 dump stat for this guy.  This is interesting and opens up some new possibilities for this character.

EDIT:  P.S.  For those without books handy, here's the point buy scale:

score - point cost
8 (or less) - 0
9 - 1
10 - 2
11 - 3
12 - 4
13 - 5
14 - 6
15 - 8
16 - 10
17 - 13
18 - 16

So, for example, to raise a score from 16 to 18 costs 6 points.


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## hong (Mar 13, 2002)

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> *I prefer point buy.
> 
> The downside is it really hurts paladins and monks because both are very stat intensive.  A low level monk with point buy is nearly unplayable IMNSHO. *




You can still use point buy; just bump up the point total to allow viable characters. In this case, you might also want a floor on the lowest possible stat, to avoid excessive minmaxing from characters who aren't so stat-intensive.

Something like 40 points, minimum score of 10 in each stat should be quite balanced IMO.


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## kenjib (Mar 13, 2002)

Axiomatic Unicorn said:
			
		

> *Kenjib,
> 
> I like it.
> 
> One odd thing, the lower you roll, the more you get to customize.  Is that good? *





Hmmmm....

*ponder*

That's a very interesting point.  It certainly didn't bother me when I was testing it out.  I didn't even notice, really.  When I got nice rolls I didn't need as much customization.  Maybe more tests would be required to see if this is a problem.




			
				Crothian said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I'm intrigued by your system and I have only one general comment.  It might be best to roll the character up and then choose class.  Let's face it, most people would go to their strength.  That is the way I've always done it when stats were rolled in a specific order.  I don't know how many people havea the exact character in mind that they will play before they even start character generation.  For us, we always have a semi balanced party, so no character idea is ever set in stone. *





Another good point.  I think it would probably work just fine either way.  I think that if someone were to choose the class after the initial rolls then they would probably just get slightly more advantageous results since they could pick the class best suited toward the luck of the dice they get (before modification).

I don't think there would be a problem just deciding on class after step 1 if you haven't determined what you want beforehand.  Give it a try!


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## Desdichado (Mar 13, 2002)

_



*Axiomatic Unicorn:*
One odd thing, the lower you roll, the more you get to customize. Is that good?
		
Click to expand...


_A compensation package, of sorts? 
_



*Crothian:*
I'm intrigued by your system and I have only one general comment. It might be best to roll the character up and then choose class. Let's face it, most people would go to their strength. That is the way I've always done it when stats were rolled in a specific order. I don't know how many people havea the exact character in mind that they will play before they even start character generation. For us, we always have a semi balanced party, so no character idea is ever set in stone.
		
Click to expand...


_Yes, but in my opinion, playing a concept is better than developing a concept based on a person who is developed first.  Sure, the _character_ may be best suited to be a fighter, or whatever, but is the _player_ best suited to it?
_



*hong:*
You can still use point buy; just bump up the point total to allow viable characters. In this case, you might also want a floor on the lowest possible stat, to avoid excessive minmaxing from characters who aren't so stat-intensive. 

Something like 40 points, minimum score of 10 in each stat should be quite balanced IMO.
		
Click to expand...


_That's probably true for most folks.  Minimum stats go a long way towards keeping it balanced.  I like kenjib's method though, because although rolling has a lot of undesirable results, it's fun!  This is a good compromise: you get some randomness, but nothing that's completely out there.


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## Oni (Mar 13, 2002)

Here is what I did last time when I had everybody roll up stats for the game I'm starting (I don't feel bad experimenting since everyone knows this isnt' going to be a terrible long lived game).  


4d6 drop lowest
arrange to taste
if you have no stat above 14 add +2 to one stat. 
trade points on a two for one basis i.e. lower 14 to 12 to raise 17 to 18.  


seem to put everyone in pretty much the same range while still having some randomness and allowed for more customization without too much min/maxing.


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## Axiomatic Unicorn (Mar 13, 2002)

I decided to try a few test rolls and here is my preliminary thoughts.

It winds up being point buy with two twists.

A) You hope you don't roll good scores in more than one throw away stat.  If you can avoid this, you really just end up with a fairly normal point buy, with maybe a few points spent where a true min/maxer would not.

B) If you roll really well, you get more points.

I don't think either of these things are bad.

You said that 8 or less = 0 points.  If I roll a 7, how many points must I spend to go to 8?  8 = 0 points, 7 =  0 points, 0-0=0, so it costs 0 points?  So anything less than 8 is automatically increased to 8?  Or does 7 = 0 points, but it still costs 1 point to go to 8, so you wind up with a lower point total?


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## Sodalis (Mar 13, 2002)

> Ridley: The downside is it really hurts paladins and monks because both are very stat intensive. A low level monk with point buy is nearly unplayable IMNSHO.




I dont think pt buy hurts monks and paladins at all...

with 28 pt buy, you can have:
14, 14, 14, 12, 12, 10

with 32 pt buy, you get
15,15,14,12,12,10
or 16,14,14,12,12,10

of which, you can put the highest on dex, wis, and con.  

that would make agreat monk.  and at lvl 4,8, you can bump the 15s up to 16s, or in the second case bump the 14 to a 16...

Having three good stats and two decent ones and a fair one.  I dont think that would hurt anyone...

and if you choose your race carefully, you get racial bonus which can help out a lot also.  And then there is magic items.  sionce a monk does not have to buy weapons, they can buy a lot of magic items, bracers, amulets, belts...

edit:  at low levels, since you dont have to buy weapons, you can buy potions of bull str and cats grace.  That should give you playable stats...


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## kenjib (Mar 13, 2002)

Axiomatic Unicorn said:
			
		

> *You said that 8 or less = 0 points.  If I roll a 7, how many points must I spend to go to 8?  8 = 0 points, 7 =  0 points, 0-0=0, so it costs 0 points?  So anything less than 8 is automatically increased to 8?  Or does 7 = 0 points, but it still costs 1 point to go to 8, so you wind up with a lower point total? *




Yeah, I intentionally left that in so there is still a penalty for rolling low.  Rolling a score below 8 is a bad thing.  If you get a 7 you get no points to compensate but you still have to spend 1 point to raise it to 8.  I mentioned in my addendum that raising scores below 8 is done on a one-for-one basis.  Sorry - it's spread out over two posts now.  

Do you think that is good or bad?  I think it leaves intact an important part of the fun of die rolling - if you roll really good it's a good thing - if you roll really poorly it's a bad thing.  That's what makes the gamble of rolling fun, no?  The difference is that now you have some recourse to soften the blow a bit when you do roll poorly.


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## Sundaram (Mar 13, 2002)

*The thrill*

of the roll and the agony of anything less than 10!

We always use 4D6 dropping lowest die and re-rolling ones.

Works for us and IMO I would rather go for it all and loose than have to be tied down to the points. 

=)


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## Axiomatic Unicorn (Mar 13, 2002)

I think it is both good and bad.  

Sorry, no clear opinion.

Point buy is about equity, but random is simply part of the game.

I think your version is a good compromise, so far.


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## Davelozzi (Mar 13, 2002)

Rather than a hybrid system, in my current campaign, we used an either/or system.  Originally we rolled up using a set of home rules based off the 4-14 scale used in Alternity, although we later converted to 3e.

At any rate, in 3e terms, it would've been something like this:

Player chooses point selection or dice rolling.  Once made, there is no going back. 

Player chooses point selection (one for one from total available pool, not scaled like point buy).  It would take some work to figure out what the total would be like on a 3-18 scale, but it was roughly a few points lower than the average total you would end up with choosing option 2 below.  Basically this was a safety choice.  You could always get a decently workable character without worrying about bad rolls.  

Or player chooses to roll, allowing for the possibility of an exceptional or below average character.  Player rolls two sets of six scores (4d6, drop lowest).  No mixing between the two sets is allowed.  Then the player chooses which set to keep and assignes to the six abilities as desired.

No matter which method I use, I always stipulate that the final results are subject to DM's approval.

Eight players rolled up characters, and every one of them chose to roll.  Most of the characters ended up with point totals slightly above what they would have had with point selection.  One player ended up with a two low scores (5 and 6 I believe).  He wanted to play a dwarven figher anyway and didn't mind having low Int & Wis since he had good rolls for his physical abilities and decent charisma.

Kenjib, I'm intrigued by your system but I think it would need more testing.  I have found that it takes many, many sample rolls to really get a good sense of how a system works out.

Psion, I agree with you that the S&P system was easy to abuse.   However, the problem was not simply point buy, the main problem was the subability scores.  It was too easy to pump one subability and leave the other hanging.  Some examples:

If you didn't plan on focusing on missile weapons, it was a no brainer to pump up the defensive side (balance?) of Dex and leave yourself with a low Aim.  

Likewise, almost everyone would pump up the side of Str that affected your damage adjustment and be content with a lower carrying capacity.


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## Number47 (Mar 13, 2002)

I'll post my own method, just for comparison sake.

Roll stats with 3d6, keep them in order. Swap any one stat with one other, so you can play the class you want. You now have your first-level stats. Pretty weak, huh? It gets better, though.

*Leveling up*

Every level, if you have a score that give a penalty, add one to your lowest score
Every level, add one to any one score, as long as that score is currently no higher than six above your lowest score
Add one point to any score at fourth level, as per the book

So, once you get to about sixth-seventh level, the scores get to be pretty good. At higher levels, the start getting awesome. We like this because it makes first level characters as afraid as they should be. Just Sunday, I got to roll up a character to play (switching DMs for a while). Nothing rolled higher than an 11 (got a 13 Con for racial adjustment). But that's okay, because if I survive I can improve my character the way I want. I also like the fact that it adds hard choices every level. Although the min-max way would say to never spend discretionary points in low scores, most players get sick of Con, Dex or Int penalties pretty quick.


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## BiggusGeekus (Mar 13, 2002)

I hate when I come into threads I like late in the discussion.

Point buy rocks.  It really shows the first game your run a rolling game and have one guy dice up what would be a 20 point character and another guy dice up what would be a 40 point character.

And incidentally, I prefer 25 points.  Just enough for the character to do the cool stuff, but not too many so the player has to make some decisions about the character.


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## Ridley's Cohort (Mar 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by hong
> _
> I prefer point buy.
> 
> ...




Hmm.  That would probably work insofar as making viable paladins and monks.  But 40 points make for some pretty superheroic stats in my book.  Examples: 16 14 14 14 14 14  or  18 16 14 12 10 10.


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## Zelda Themelin (Mar 13, 2002)

Point buy is idea that always ruins my day. I hate counting points. I hated it in Gurps, White Wolf-system, I hated it in every roleplaying game I've ever played.

Not getting to roll my stats in D&D takes out some fun I've always used to have. Randomness starts my character's life as personality. Point buy starts life of min-maxed 'careed planned from beginning for "fighter number 6"'. It's just how things happen to be in my head, thats all.

Now, if my players want to use point-pay method and they all agree to that, they are welcome to it, naturally.

Point buy is good method for net-games, where people can't really meet and verify their rolls. 


I use following rolling methods:

3d6 for every stat.
4d6, drop lowest (most common).
4d6 drop lowest, reroll 1's (for few games where character are supposed to be beyond avarage).

In all cases stats can be arranged as wanted, but no other swapping points around.


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## jester47 (Mar 13, 2002)

I give an option:

you can use 28 point buy and design your character

-or- 

you can roll 2d6+6, but you have to take the stats in the order that you roll them.  

What this does is it allows the players that have a specific character in mind to design the one they want, and still allows for those that want to take a risk with their character.  

All in all you will not have a stat below 8, which in my opinion is roleplayable butnot debilitating.  

If all the neg bonuses are higher than the pos bonuses, I allow a reroll.  

Aaron.


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## Ace (Mar 13, 2002)

I don't use either point buy or rolling. 

I just let the players make up what they want.

If everybody goes munchkin with mondo stas i just power up the bad guys as needed

I have never had munchkin problems with ths system.
I figure that my players appreciate the trust and  I do reserve the right to tweak characters a little before play.

Ona  funny note rs for stat balance IMC seem to be the rolls I witness . 

I have witnessed the rolling of stuff like 
18/18/18/15/12/17 and much worse. theese are with my dice rolled in front of me!

As far as HP rolls, I just assign a nice high number. You are a mage, con14,5 sounds good for second level. Its much easier that way.


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## JoeGKushner (Mar 13, 2002)

I use the point buy system, as do the other GMs I play with.  We use a 42 point base, but all stats have to have a minimum of 10, which leaves 32 points for other purchases.

JGK


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## Thorin Stoutfoot (Mar 13, 2002)

*Rolling all the way*

I've played point buy, and I've played with rolls. For me, it's rolling all the way. The character has more personality that way. And I don't find that some characters having better attributes makes the game all that unbalanced. Good play will always trump poor play.


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## Victim (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: Rolling all the way*



			
				Thorin Stoutfoot said:
			
		

> *I've played point buy, and I've played with rolls. For me, it's rolling all the way. The character has more personality that way. And I don't find that some characters having better attributes makes the game all that unbalanced. Good play will always trump poor play. *




Yes, but who says that people with good stats have to play poorly?  Power players would be the most likely to optimize a character's abilities and a few tactics, and might also be more likely to reroll stats until they're good enough for whatever plan they have.  Also, what about when the new player, who lacks the experience for "good" play, gets the low rolls?

Besides, good play and good stats is more effective than just good play, so even people with with good skills are left behind.


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## The Kender (Mar 13, 2002)

I think you made a typo.  You posted that a person gains points if they are over the point value.
3d6
Flip 2 Stats
25 Point Buy Comparison
Add Bonus Points

Here's my Druid.

STR: 11
DEX: 10
CON: 13
INT: 9
WIS: 14
CHA: 12

I will switch CHA & WIS around.  That's 21 points.

Overall, I got:
STR: 12
DEX: 10
CON: 13
INT: 10
WIS: 15
CHA: 12

I like


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## kenjib (Mar 13, 2002)

The Kender said:
			
		

> *I think you made a typo.  You posted that a person gains points if they are over the point value.
> *




I'm not sure where you are finding the typo, so I can't tell for sure.  Which post is it?  You always get a minimum of 4 points to spend, even if you roll phenomenally well.  Otherwise it would kind of suck if you roll exactly a 25 point total (or whatever the DM baseline is) and you can't customize your stats at all beyond one ability swap.  You get more than 4 points if your point total as rolled is more than 4 below the DM's baseline


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## bret (Mar 13, 2002)

As one of those people who has amazing luck with dice, amazingly bad that is, I much prefer point buy.

I've done various rolled statistic methods. It usually didn't take too long for a GM to decide that a reroll was in order. Or two. Why don't you try one more time...

In one group for AD&D, we used 4d6, drop lowest. Character had to have one stat of 16 or better or two 15s or it was 'stillborn'. I got the record for most rerolls required before getting a character that qualified.


Although occationally playing a character that is somewhat weaker is OK, it really sucks when you are always the weaker character.


From my point of view, point buy is the only really fair way to do it. There is enough randomness in the game without punishing someone who rolls low at character creation.


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## Quickbeam (Mar 14, 2002)

Our group is split on the subject, with a 5/2 preference for rolling over point buy.  The point buyers use a 28 or 32 point system I believe, while the rollers use 4d6.

For my current character I tried a concept posted in a thread similar to this one, from about three months ago.  The idea is to roll 24d6, drop the six lowest scores, and then place the remaining 18 numbers into your attributes in six groups of three.  This clearly promotes min/maxing, but it allows for a lot of creativity.  And since 1's aren't re-rolled with this method, the attribute scores aren't much different than point buy provides.

As a final comment, I love rolling.  Good, bad, or mediocre, I enjoy the process of watching my PCs take shape as I roll  .


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## Roland Delacroix (Mar 14, 2002)

Point buy.  Whenever i play in a game that rolls we inevitably get someone who rolls what would be a 23 point character and another guy guy who rolls a (last game) 56 point character.  I could make up an obscure semi roll/semi point system, or supervise all characters stats, or just turn to page 21 in the DMG.  I'm inherently lazy too BTW  

Another upside is that you can assign a point buy for your players and let them make thier characters on thier own time.  32 points, PHB, 3rd level be ready to play at 6:00 on Sunday.  Go to.


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## Creamsteak (Mar 14, 2002)

Sir Osis, I use point buy...

It keeps munchkins from showing up the good players, and it generally makes things much simpler...

I do roll for random NPC's however... I feel they need that organic touch...


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## Squire James (Mar 14, 2002)

IMC, each PC starts with the standard array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) then adds 5 points where they want them.  Not "point-buy points"... just add them in.  No score is allowed to exceed 18 before racial mods, of course.

This tends to yield characters with 2 great scores (18, 16, ...) or about 4 good scores (16, 14, 14, 14, 10, 9).  There's always an odd number in there, and there's almost always clear strengths and weaknesses to each character.  It works surprisingly well.


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## Shard O'Glase (Mar 14, 2002)

I like point buys.  I just don't like d&ds scaling cost point buy.


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## SableWyvern (Mar 14, 2002)

kenjib said:
			
		

> *Has anyone tried a hybrid model?  For a rough examle/first draft:
> *




I'm a big fan of dice for stats. However, I'll be running a short campaign in a few months where I want the players to be guaranteed  a few good stats and no terrible ones. Thus I plan to use a 22 point buy, plus three d4s that can be allocated (in whole dice, and before rolling) to any stats. I'm going to limit the point buy to a max of 16, and a max of 18 after the d4s are added.


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## gubaru (Mar 14, 2002)

I prefer rolling. I'm more of an egalitarian than an equalitarian. But I think I'll try kenjib's method the next time I start a new game.


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## Ace (Mar 14, 2002)

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hmm.  That would probably work insofar as making viable paladins and monks.  But 40 points make for some pretty superheroic stats in my book.  Examples: 16 14 14 14 14 14  or  18 16 14 12 10 10. *




Superheroic? No wonder you are a cohort  

Those stats are average for a hero, Now I do tend to discourage the 16 prime 14 everything else character as they seem to balanced.

FWIW My standard characters for quicky games are something like this

Fighter 18-12-10-14-17-10
Cleric 12-14-18-12-14-17
Wizard 10-18-10-10-14-14
Rogue 12-14-12-18-`14-15
Sorcerer 12-14-10-12-14-18
Ranger 17-14-16-15-15-10
Paladin 17-14-16-12-14-17
Druid 12-14-18-12-14-15
Barbarian 17-12-12-14-17-10

If I were to use points Isay 40 or so, maybe the 30+2d6 or something.


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## GuardianLurker (Mar 14, 2002)

*Another Hybrid*

I like the Roll-and-Compare method; it seems like it'd work well. 

Here's another possibility for those of you who don't like the point-buy system. For lack of a better name, I'll call it the "Build-as-you-go" Method.

1. Every character starts with a 7 in every ability.

2. Apply racial adjustments.

3. Each player receives a pool of 12d6.

4. Assign an order to the abilities.

5. You roll dice one ability at a time, and once you move on to the next ability, you can't spend any more dice on the previous. You can spend the dice one at a time.

6. Any ability with a result higher than the racial max gets chopped.

Examples :
Human Fighter 
Ability Order Str, Con, Dex, Int, Cha, Wis
Rolls :
Str : 7 + 1 + 2 + 1("I wanna fighter!") + 5 + 6("What a waste")
Con : 7 + 4 + 3 + 1 
Dex : 7 + 1 + 6
Int : 7 + 5
Cha : 7 + 2
Wis : 7 + (0)

Result : 
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Cha 9, Wis 7 

Elven Rogue
Ability Order Dex, Int, Cha, Con, Str, Wis
Rolls :
Dex : 9 + 3 + 2
Int : 7 + 6 + 6
Cha : 7 + 4 + 3 + 2
Con : 5 + 4 + 6
Str : 7 + 3 + 2
Wis : 7 + 4

Result :
Str 12, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 18, Wis 11, Cha 16

Basically, it guarantees a base (7), and allows players to ensure that the abilities they care about are high, but should still allow plenty of "quirky" characters and rolling.

Thoughts?


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## Darklone (Mar 14, 2002)

*How I do it.*



			
				kenjib said:
			
		

> *Has anyone tried a hybrid model?  For a rough examle/first draft:
> 
> 1.  Roll 3d6 for each stat in order and take all scores where they fall - no rearranging or reassigning.
> 2.  Spend 12 points as per point buy rules to increase the rolled stats.  You gain no benefit from decreasing a stat below the value of your initial roll.
> *




I combined it usually in a different way. I let the players create 3 chars and give them 3 methods to create them, a rolling, a hybrid and a point buy. 

But still I got a char with 3 16s and others with only one 14.


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## The Allamistako (Mar 14, 2002)

My group uses Point-buy. We all decided it would be best, seeing as everyone tended to role charas with not a single stat under 16. And after Marcus refused to play a chara he just rolled (can you belive the guy rolled SIX 18's...), we just went for point buy...

-Alla


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## S'mon (Mar 14, 2002)

I have my round-table players roll up PCs using the WoTC MasterTools generator, I frown if they roll more than a few times before accepting a roll, but as it only allows best 3 of 4d6 and you can't easily save prior rolls (and cheating is fairly obvious), I've never seen really excessive stats generated by it.

For my low-level, low-power PBEM game I encourage players to submit PCs using the Mastertools generator, alternatively they can use 28-point point buy, eg 14 14 14 14 10 10 - perfectly decent (in 3e) but not overpowered.  I wouldn't allow 32-point (or more!) buy unless I was running a very different kind of game.

As point buy encourages min-maxing, I think 32-point buy creates characters a lot better than the standard best 3 of 4d6.


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## Ma'varkith (Mar 14, 2002)

For my campaign I gave two options:

a) 28-point buy
b) 4d6, drop lowest, arrane as desired, with one "floating reroll" of one die

There was about a 50/50 split between point-buy and rolling.  The boint-buy PCs had stats that were mostl middle-of the road, while the rolled characters had one or two good stats and a couple poor ones.

I'll probably stick with this variant.


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## Jens (Mar 14, 2002)

Zappo said:
			
		

> *I always use point buy. I even assign fixed HP at every new level. I don't like the different power levels that randomness generates. *



I couldn't agree more.  Poor rolls can really cripple a character. (Think of a 4th level fighter with +1 from Con and only 20 HPs... not even that unlikely.) The best I can think of would be to give max HPs at 1st level and after that give average HPs, rounded down at even level and up at odd levels.

I think rolling for HPs makes about as much sense as it would to, at character creation, roll a d20 and use that roll instead of the usual '10' for the character's base AC. Think about it - if it should be random how hardy someone is, shouldn't it also be random how difficult he is to hit? Yes, AC varies between characters due to Dex (and various protections, but that's irrelevant here) but HPs vary just as much due to Con. And both values are compared to random rolls (damage rolls and attack rolls, respectively) so it's not like everything would be pre-determined.

Something else: IMX just about everyone re-rolls poor results, so why roll in the first place? I mean, if you roll for HPs, and reroll (say) 1s and 2s on a d10 when rolling HPs, why not just roll d8+2 in the first place? The same goes for anyone with stat-rolling systems with a rule like "reroll 1s and 2s"... why not just use d4+2 instead of d6? The usual "4d6, reroll 1s and 2s, drop lowest" can be simplified to "4d4, drop lowest, add 6". But then some might still want to reroll 1s?







			
				Axiomatic Unicorn said:
			
		

> *Kenjib,
> 
> I like it.
> 
> One odd thing, the lower you roll, the more you get to customize.  Is that good? *



That is good, yes. The more you get to customize, the more efficiently can you make use of the stats. Usually, having a good stat that you use a lot and a poor stat that you rarely use (say, Str and Cha for a fighter) is 'better' than having average stats. The increasing incremental costs of the DMG's point buy method reflect this reasonably well, I think.


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## hong (Mar 14, 2002)

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hmm.  That would probably work insofar as making viable paladins and monks.  But 40 points make for some pretty superheroic stats in my book.  Examples: 16 14 14 14 14 14  or  18 16 14 12 10 10. *




That doesn't seem very superheroic to me. In any case, what do you really want? On the one hand, you said you didn't like point buy because it didn't give good enough stats to play paladins and monks. So I said that's not a problem, just give out more points. Now you seem to be saying that it results in stats that are too good -- but you said yourself that good stats are needed for these classes!


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## S'mon (Mar 14, 2002)

*rolling hp*

There's no rerolling for hp in the games I'm familiar with; I just got a cleric of mine to 3rd level and rolled a '2' on the d8.  Max hp at first level greatly lessens the impact of low rolls at 2nd & 3rd.  Although as a player I tend to take the fixed hp (5 for a fighter etc) at 2nd level, and roll from 3rd on.


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## SableWyvern (Mar 14, 2002)

Jens said:
			
		

> *Something else: IMX just about everyone re-rolls poor results, so why roll in the first place? I mean, if you roll for HPs, and reroll (say) 1s and 2s on a d10 when rolling HPs, why not just roll d8+2 in the first place? The same goes for anyone with stat-rolling systems with a rule like "reroll 1s and 2s"... why not just use d4+2 instead of d6? The usual "4d6, reroll 1s and 2s, drop lowest" can be simplified to "4d4, drop lowest, add 6". But then some might still want to reroll 1s? *




Another option would be to treat 1s as 2s, or 1s and 2s as 3s. This prevents low-end abilities without increasing the chance of high-end abilities.


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## Black Omega (Mar 14, 2002)

My group has generally done it either way.  32 pt Point buy or you can roll 4d6, drop lowest, no re rolls.    Statistics wise, I think this works out roughly equal, on average.  In my group most players choose to go for point buy, though.

since I grew up on Hero System instead of DnD, for me point buy is just about the only choice.  I never grew up on rolling up characters, so I'm always happier taking control and deciding it all myself.


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## S'mon (Mar 14, 2002)

Black Omega said:
			
		

> *My group has generally done it either way.  32 pt Point buy or you can roll 4d6, drop lowest, no re rolls.    Statistics wise, I think this works out roughly equal, on average.  In my group most players choose to go for point buy, though.
> 
> *




If the players aren't cheating, 32-point buy gives much higher stats on average than straight 3/4d6 no rerolls.  The average on 3/4d6 method is 12.5x6, about 27 points, although typically 3 of those points are 'wasted' on odd numbers, hence the DMG recommended 25-point buy, which allows for eg 15 14 14 10 10 10.  I use 28-point buy since I allow rerolls on the 3/4d6.


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## novyet (Mar 14, 2002)

I use a 25 point buy, it helps cut down on the rolling and rerolling plus I don't have to worry about anyone lying about what they rolled. There's nothing wrong with rolling, but all my groups have moved away from it due to the variations from one character to another. Of course I've had players tell me that they don't like point buy because it can create cookie cutter characters, since you figure out the "best" to spend X amount of points. 

Of course YMMV.


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## Buttercup (Mar 14, 2002)

For all of the online games I've played or DMed, we have just distributed a certain number of points.

For the real world game I'll be DMing in a few months, I'm going to modify this concept just a bit.  All of the players are busy professionals, and we probably won't have time to play more than once a month for 4 hours.  So I don't want to waste precious time at the table generating characters.  All of the following will be done via email, before the first session.

First, no stat lower than 8 after racial penalties.  Distribute 77 points.  Then, write a detailed character biography.  For every two of the following points mentioned in the bio, the player will get another stat point:

·	Family Background—number of siblings, parents alive or dead, etc.
·	Family Social Standing.
·	Family or personal enemies.
·	A tragedy that occurred in your family or to you personally.
·	Greatest fear.
·	Personality quirks.
·	What your character did before heeding the call to adventure.
·	A secret that your fellow players don’t know about you at the start of the adventure.
·	Something your character is ashamed of.
·	Something your character is particularly proud of.

This will probably create a party of players with very high stats, but I'm ok with that, since they are all role players rather than roll players.  

I'm not sure why this subject has created conflict in the past.  If a method works for you and your players, cool.  If it doesn't, use a different one.  We're all different.  And that's good.


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## Zarrock God of Evil (Mar 14, 2002)

I use rolling exclusively as it portrays the fact that we are not all born equal. People are born with different abilities and even though most of us probably cut an average norm, others are simply superiorly gifted from birth. 
To add to that - people are brought up in such vastly different ways and with vastly different opportunities that making everyone equally skilled overall seems ludicrous to me. I will never play with point-buy or participate in a game using it....
But then again, I am not a man of compromise....

-Zarrock


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## Henry (Mar 14, 2002)

Our group has used so many different rolling methods that we do not hold to any one method. Each DM has his preference.

We have used point-buy, 4d6 7 times drop lowest die & lowest score, 4d6 7 times, drop lowest die AND choose best of the seven sets, 4d6 drop lowest die (standard), and for one particularly nasty game, 3d6 straight! I usually like the standard 4d6 method, though I still occasionally get some players who feel that their scores are too low.

We still have some holdovers who feel that their characters are failures unless most scores are 15 and up - don't know why, since everyone has had a chance to play the game.

However, I do disagree with people who think that a PC made with any point-buy over 25 is a "superman." I even run a Star Wars game that uses a *36* point-buy for creating PC's, and the characters still have to struggle prolifically against the enemy (Yuuzhan Vong - the first time they met a Voxyn (Jedi-hunting creature) last game it scared their little Corellian Blood stripes off!) In Star Wars this isn't so bad, because there are no magic items to boost your character up to insane levels of Attributes. Even in D&D, 36 point buy will give you all 14's, or at worst it will give you 2 18's, two 10's, and two 8's, or 3 16's and 3 10's - hardly game breaking and still within the realm of challenging.

A 25-point buy will give you 16-14-14-10-9-8 - still game-breaking by some standards - and still good enough for a Monk. (S-14 D-16 C-10 I-9 W-14 CH-8, or the 14 14 11 14 10 10 for those with a well-rounded agenda.)


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## Psion (Mar 14, 2002)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> If the players aren't cheating, 32-point buy gives much higher stats on average than straight 3/4d6 no rerolls.  The average on 3/4d6 method is 12.5x6, about 27 points, although typically 3 of those points are 'wasted' on odd numbers, hence the DMG recommended 25-point buy, which allows for eg 15 14 14 10 10 10.  I use 28-point buy since I allow rerolls on the 3/4d6. *




I don't think a straight up comparison of point totals tells the whole story. Not only will you have those odd points as you mentioned, but you might also have points tied up in stats that are less than perfectly optimum for your character. _Which I prefer._


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## BluWolf (Mar 14, 2002)

My campaign uses either 4d6 drop the lowest no 1s or a 32 point buy system. Player's choice.

I'm not really concerned with high or low scores, just ensuring the player gets a character he or she wants to play.

I enjoy high adventure games but I adjust to the group.

I'm usually pretty stingy on treasure and magic items so I find ensuring the PCs have above average scores helps keep them around.

As a player I prefer to roll unless I'm just dead set on a particular character concept for a particular campaign.

I have a tendency to play quickish rogues so I force my self to roll stats in order these days to come up with something new each time. It just forces me to branch out once in awhile.


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## S'mon (Mar 14, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I don't think a straight up comparison of point totals tells the whole story. Not only will you have those odd points as you mentioned, but you might also have points tied up in stats that are less than perfectly optimum for your character. Which I prefer. *




I'm not sure I follow you.  With rolling you'll only have points tied up in sub-optimal stats if you're not allowed to arrange stats as desired.  Even with point buy you may have a single 'wasted' odd point, especially on 25-pt buy.

BTW re sub-optimal stats, I have an undead-hunter cleric PC.  He only has WIS 14, but CHA 16 and STR 17 - handy for turning undead & whacking them with Bull's Strength.  It depends a lot on the character concept.


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## Petrosian (Mar 14, 2002)

In the game i currently run, which i inherited, we used CHARGEN rolling with one guaranteed reroll and otherwise rerolls per the PHb minimums. Once i took over, at third level, we switched to HIGH AVERAGE for HP (d10 HD gives you 6 HP.)

In the game i am playing in, we used a 32 point buy and use HIG AVERAGE HP.

In the next game i run, we will use a point buy and HAvg hit points as well.  (I have not yet decided on the specific point buy yet.)

To me the benefits in balance between PCs, no worries about "remote" design or did they fudge or did they not (penalizing the honest) and making the lucky suspect, and being able to tailor the stats/numbers  to the background/character (as opposed to trying to make the character fit the rolls) vastly outweigh the downsides of "similarity" in numbers.

As for the similarity in numbers, since my players take different tracks depending on the character to the whole MAX ONE vs BOOST MAHY thing, I don't see the SAME set of numbers every time.

The issue i have with the current system is it seems to really hammer high end stats. While i can see this for a meat grinder bash 'em all campaign where the 18 strength 18 CON fighter would be far superior to the same guy with more balanced stats... in a game with a variety of challenges and events a difference between a strength of 18  vs 16 (+1 hit/damage) is not worth losing the +3 bonuses you could get by applting those 6 points as +2 to three different stats in the 8-12 range.


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## Metallian (Mar 14, 2002)

*Have used random, will use point buy*

I had my players roll randomly out of force of habit, but now I wish I hadn't. All of them have obscene stats. My gf even rolled hers legitimately (I watched). She always rolls like that, though. 
=(

It's hard enough to gauge their power effectively (given the standards in the DMG and such) since it's a big party, but since nobody has a stat under 11 and everybody has at least one stat of 18 or above, it's *really* difficult.

I think it is kind of odd that a game that bends over backwards to "balance" the classes, races, and levels in the game uses random resolution for two of the most important character qualities in the game (ability scores and hit points). It's like all of that work to create game balance is for nothing! There's an assumption that the averages will work themselves out (and they should! I know my probabilities, dammit!), but I have never seen this happen in practice.

So next time, I'll use point buy. I haven't decided which type of point buy, yet. I will probably also come up with some sort of fixed method of determining hit points per level as well. Randomness (via the d20 & damage rolls) in task resolution is good enough for me, I don't need it in character creation as well, especially not in a game that emphasizes balance so much.

         The Metallian

ps - Somebody said they could "never" play in a game with point buy and fixed hit point advancement, but they never said why. Care to elaborate? I'd like to hear the argument for the other side....


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## Metallian (Mar 14, 2002)

*Another solution*

I actually came up with another solution a while back, but I'm still not sure if I'd like it in practice or not.

I wrote a program that rolls 4d6 and drops the lowest over and over again until it comes up with a set of ability scores with a certain total of ability score modifiers.

So If you plugged in "+0", it would give you 6 10s, or 4 10s a 12 and a 9 or something like that. You could also plug in +5, -2, or +24 if you wanted (good luck rolling that, though...it automatically shuts down after a certain number of rolls in order to keep it from getting out of control trying to roll wildly improbable combos).

That way, you can make sure that all of the ability score sets rolled are balanced with one another (except for the whole "even/odd" thing, perhaps), but they will not necessarily be min/maxed.

Thoughts?

               The Metallian


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## Fenes (Mar 14, 2002)

Point buy. Everyone should be on equal footing. The alternative method I have use is "bring your own character, no questions asked" with rebalancing done by the DM through stat-rising of other chars, item distribution, class perks etc.


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## Fenris (Mar 14, 2002)

I use a hybrid system wherein I have made up 12 sets of stats that are all equivelent. The players roll a d12 and I give them the stats and they assign them as they like. Some randomness but I know no one is too overbalanced. I control all of the min/maxing. Some of the sets have 17s &18s but most are well balanced. We have played several campaigns with this system and all of my players are quite satisfied with it. You can then set any level of points and varibility within sets if you like as well.


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## Chimera (Mar 14, 2002)

For my next campaign, which will probably begin next fall or winter, I will use the following;

1.  Design your character using 32 Point Buy.  Bards, Monks and Rangers get an additional 2 points (34).  Psions and Paladins get 4 more (36).

Before you question why more points for some classes, it is due to the increased demands, restrictions and responsibilities placed on those classes in my campaign setting.  No, you don't get +6 for being a Bard/Psion or anything like that.

2.  (NOT told to players):  After recieving the PC backgrounds, the GM (Me) may grant 0-3 additional attribute points to each PC, based on how good the background info is and how many plot hooks it leaves me.

Heck, if the player decides to play a Half-Orc Barbarian, despite how clearly the game materials will make it clear that this is a bad idea; and he/she is aware of it and willing to play with the consequences, then I am perfectly willing to give them more attribute points to help them out.


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## Zappo (Mar 14, 2002)

Chimera said:
			
		

> *2.  (NOT told to players):  After recieving the PC backgrounds, the GM (Me) may grant 0-3 additional attribute points to each PC, based on how good the background info is and how many plot hooks it leaves me.*



Why not told to players? If they know it in advance, they will be encouraged to make better backgrounds, won't them?


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## Jester_OC (Mar 14, 2002)

*Another way*

I came up with a way to roll characters that I have not seen anyone use before.

It works best when you are starting a new campaign with new characters, but I'm sure you can alter it to work with any situation.

It is really simple.  The players will roll the dice to create stats for the PARTY, not just thier character.  For instance we had a party of 3 players, I explained that they could pick the any stat set that anyone of them rolled.  Each player could roll up 2  stat sets.  After they where done, any player could pick any stat. 

It was really fun, the group was cheering each other on, and hoping for big stats.  We used the 4 d6 drop the lowest method, and it produced a good range of stats, in the end.  There was no single stat set that everyone liked, so after the rolling was over people where having fun debating the best stat block for their character concept.  

In the end, no on felt robbed, or out classed by another player's lucky roll. Two PC's picked the same stat set(a 17 in it), while the other chose a different more well rounded(Twin 16's), and they had just had thier first party experience.

I think I'll keep using this method.


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## xjp (Mar 14, 2002)

*Re: Another way*



			
				Jester_OC said:
			
		

> *I came up with a way to roll characters that I have not seen anyone use before.
> 
> 
> It is really simple.  The players will roll the dice to create stats for the PARTY, not just thier character.  For instance we had a party of 3 players, I explained that they could pick the any stat set that anyone of them rolled.  Each player could roll up 2  stat sets.  After they where done, any player could pick any stat.
> ...




That's pretty cool.  I really like rolling, but it does have to be tempered in some way.  We try out a number of systems, but modifed rolling systems seem to be the most enjoyable.


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## Davelozzi (Mar 14, 2002)

That's a very interesting idea, Jester.


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## maddman75 (Mar 14, 2002)

Here's what I've been using for awhile.  It levels the characters while still retaining some randomness.

The characters roll 4d6 drop the lowest.  Then the DM levels the scores by totalling the modifiers from each.  I like +8.  Powerful characters, but not quite gods.  If two eighteens or four fourteens bothers you, might want to scale it back to +6.

After the scores are rolled, total their modifiers.  If they are above +8(or whatever), lower them until they match.  If below, add points until the modifiers total +8.

There are two antimunchkin clauses.  You must always add numbers to the stats in sets of two.  This preserves the even/odd nature and prevents you from setting up a +1 mod at every four levels.

The second is that if a scores gets a penalty, you CANNOT lower it.  If you roll a low stat you can keep it, but you can't dump.

My players like it - there's still some randomness and everyone is on the same playing field.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Mar 14, 2002)

*Balance Schmalance*

When the players got together and rolled up PC's for the current campaign it was a blast.   The first guy who rolled rolled up stats that nobody else came close to matching.    Nobody bitched and whined about it.   Not all PC's are created equal, and they shouldn't be.   Who want's PC's that are straight out of the generic chump pool?  Roll them dice and let them fall where they may.   As for HP.  Not every fighter with a 13 Con should have the same HP at the same level.  There should be some randomness to that.   I or my players just don't get all fired up over "imbalances" between characters.  Some classes are better than others and you should be rewarded for rolling good with more options.    Some classes should cost more in EXP to advance.  I liked the ability restrictions in the 1e.   I liked Magic Users outstripping the rest of the party at high levels, was anyone Gandalf's equal in the LOTR?


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## gustavef (Mar 14, 2002)

*equlity of tea*

A few posters have stated they like the randomness of dice rolling since "not all PCs are created equal."

That is a fine idea and if your players are happy then more power to you.  If I were playing with people that I did not know, or did not trust, I would lean towards a point buy.  I don't mind an in-equality in stats as long as I know my players will not feel cheated.  

As a DM, using any random method requires a level of trust and or observation/intervention.

As for Hit Points.  My current campaing uses "Half for free and roll for the other half"  This means you will get at least half your hit die+1.  In my PBeM versions it is 75% max after level 1.

-gustavef


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Mar 14, 2002)

I wouldn't play with people I don't know or trust.   

P.S. the posts that talk about switching to point buy because standard 4d6 rolling was producing scores that were too high must have had the best dice rollers in history.   In 16 years of playing D&D I've never seen a rolled character that was totally over the top.


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