# Football is of the devil.



## der_kluge (Sep 13, 2005)

So, I noticed a lot of football threads here.

I think if someone with the power to do so came out tomorrow and said, "we're abolishing football forever", I'd be like "what the hell took you so long?"

So, if you hate football (and most organized sports for that matter), this thread is for you.

Share you hatred.


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## Mista Collins (Sep 13, 2005)

I must share my hatred for those who hate football    

I have always found organized sports to be a very good way to meet new people. I like to play sports of all nature and love competition as it helps me improve mentally, morally, physically, socially, and sometimes financially. Everyday I try to improve those 5 aspects of my life.


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## Darth K'Trava (Sep 13, 2005)

If they got rid of football, then I'd go around chanting, "Kill Kluge, Kill Kluge"....


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## devilbat (Sep 13, 2005)

I love the foosball.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 13, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> If they got rid of football, then I'd go around chanting, "Kill Kluge, Kill Kluge"....



And that would be a bad thing because?


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## GlassJaw (Sep 13, 2005)

This is a rather negative thread Curtis.  Why all the hate?

I'm a huge fan myself.  Heck, I'm flipping between MNF and the Sox game right now.


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## Crothian (Sep 13, 2005)

It's amazing that on a forum filled with self titled geeks and nerds, so many would like organized sports.  THey are supposed to be opposites......


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Sep 13, 2005)

I'm only a 'fan' of football because I was born and raised in a college town in the South and it is a requirement. But other than that, I really don't care all that much. Baseball(college, still...), tennis, and soccer(real football ) are more my thing.


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## devilbat (Sep 13, 2005)

> THey are supposed to be opposites......




Funny thing about stereotypes.......

Who am I kidding, I'm a closet gamer.


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## AIM-54 (Sep 13, 2005)

I was a sports fan before I gamed and I'll be a sports fan 'till I die.  I don't understand the negativitiy some in the gamer culture exhibit towards people who enjoy sports, whether football, hockey, or whatever as if they are somehow superior or above them.  Sure in high school maybe some of us were made fun of by the jocks (I was), but I still went to high school basketball and football games and managed to game.  In college, I went to every home hockey game, some away games and the Beanpot Tournament, and refereed intramural flag football, hockey, and broomball.  And still managed to game.

Now, I listen to college hockey games over the net, watch baseball and football and am looking forward to the start of the NHL again.

Of course, if sports aren't your thing, there's nothing wrong with that.

The only problem seems to be that no other college hockey fans also game...


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## Ao the Overkitty (Sep 13, 2005)

AIM-54 said:
			
		

> The only problem seems to be that no other college hockey fans also game...




Heh.  That is the one sport I DO follow.  I couldn't care less about baseball, football, American football, professional hockey, or any of the others.  But, I keep a good eye on ECAC Division 1 Hockey.  Even got to go to the Championship games in 2004.  Good games.


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## Rel (Sep 13, 2005)

Didja ever wonder what would happen if you threw a rant and nobody came?


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## Del (Sep 13, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Didja ever wonder what would happen if you threw a rant and nobody came?




If you post a rant in a forest and no one reads it, was there really any flame?


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## WayneLigon (Sep 13, 2005)

I'm with you. I despise it. I don't even _see _ a couple good friends of mine on Sundays from September to February.


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## Angel Tarragon (Sep 13, 2005)

Football can kiss my shiny metal arse.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 13, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Football can kiss my shiny metal arse.



What the hell happened to your original fleshy arse?


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## Angel Tarragon (Sep 13, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> What the hell happened to your original fleshy arse?



I upgraded.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 13, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> I upgraded.



Gawd, I hope it is stainless steel. Rust can be very hard to get rid of.

Come to think of it, I may never look at my green and copper scrub pads ever again. Eww.


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## Angel Tarragon (Sep 13, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Gawd, I hope it is stainless steel. Rust can be very hard to get rid of.
> 
> Come to think of it, I may never look at my green and copper scrub pads ever again. Eww.



Polymimetic alloy.


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## Aeson (Sep 13, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> If they got rid of football, then I'd go around chanting, "Kill Kluge, Kill Kluge"....



Don't forget to take his stuff.

I like football. In both its forms. I like Baseball also. I don't follow the other sports too much. I don't know why gamers and or geeks don't. Were you picked on by the jocks too often?


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## Dioltach (Sep 13, 2005)

Footballers should take of the armour and play a real sport: rugby.


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## Henry (Sep 13, 2005)

I saw a football book in the book store recently called, "Get your own Damn Beer, I'm wathcing the game!" by Holly Robinson Peete. It teaches ladies who don't have love for football how to appreciate the game, and I just had to say something about this book...

She's cute!


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## reveal (Sep 13, 2005)

I'll be a Dye-hard Auburn fan till the day I die. And if I died watching Da Bears whup the cheeseheads, I'd die a happy man.


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## drothgery (Sep 13, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> I'm only a 'fan' of football because I was born and raised in a college town in the South and it is a requirement. But other than that, I really don't care all that much. Baseball(college, still...), tennis, and soccer(real football ) are more my thing.




See, that's about why I'm obsessive about college basketball. Until I moved to Syracuse in high school, I didn't care about college sports at all, but if you follow sports in upstate New York, you're required to become a an obsessive Syracuse University basketball fan (even though Graves and then McNabb were around, following Orange football was only encouraged, not required).


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## Thornir Alekeg (Sep 13, 2005)

I think der kluge must be correct, look at what I found...

D&D and football - I must repent now!


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## BlackSilver (Sep 13, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> So, if you hate football (and most organized sports for that matter), this thread is for you.




Hay, I like football- oh, you mean Football.  Sorry, I agree, Football isn't really a sport, but Soccer- well that is a sport. 

(Gas dumped out, Black Silver runs away.)


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## devilbat (Sep 13, 2005)

> Holly Robinson Peete......
> 
> She's cute!




Yes, yes she is.  Memories of 21 Jump St.


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## Kahuna Burger (Sep 13, 2005)

Dioltach said:
			
		

> Footballers should take of the armour and play a real sport: rugby.



What was it Giles said? "It always amuses me that a country which pride itself so much on its virility feels the need to put on 20 pounds of padding to play a game of rugby...."   

Football is for sucks! Especially college football! Extra especially Notre Dame football! do you hear me hubby?!?!? (damn, he can't even read yet and the Meatball is already hitting me for dissing the Irish....) Luckily I work most saterdays so the hubby and the meatball can bond to their fricka fracka football while I'm gone.


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## AIM-54 (Sep 13, 2005)

Ao the Overkitty said:
			
		

> Heh.  That is the one sport I DO follow.  I couldn't care less about baseball, football, American football, professional hockey, or any of the others.  But, I keep a good eye on ECAC Division 1 Hockey.  Even got to go to the Championship games in 2004.  Good games.




Whoo!  Not alone!   

I'm a Hockey East man, myself, but I like the ECAC.  Hopefully this year, we can get a team into the Frozen Four.


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## Angel Tarragon (Sep 13, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> I'll be a Dye-hard Auburn fan till the day I die. And if I dyed watching Da Bears whup the cheeseheads, I'd dye a happy man.



Fixed it for ya.


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## GlassJaw (Sep 13, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> I think der kluge must be correct, look at what I found...
> 
> D&D and football - I must repent now!




ROFL!!!  Oh man, that is so awesome.


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## Mista Collins (Sep 13, 2005)

I am going to throw out the teams I follow and cheer for whenever they play. Most people would be ashamed to call two of these teams their favorites, but I got to stick with the home teams:

Detroit Red Wings
Detroit Lions
Detroit Pistons
Detroit Tigers

I don't enjoy college football all that much, but I do follow some college hockey.

And there is nothing better than being in Rome stadium watching AC Milan play Roma. Man I wish I was back in Europe. It was also a blast seeing Alex Tanguay, Martin Gelinas and David Aebischer play for Lugano, Switzerland in a game against Niklas Hagman, Rick Nash and Joe Thornton of the Davos, Switzerland team.

I love European sports...


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## devilbat (Sep 13, 2005)

> Detroit Red Wings
> Detroit Lions
> Detroit Pistons
> Detroit Tigers




I think I see a pattern.


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## devilbat (Sep 13, 2005)

> Whoo! Not alone!




Not at all.  I'm a St Cloud State Huskies fan, and I follow college hockey fairly closely.  I attend games at UND, U. of Minn. and St. Cloud State every season.  One of these years I'll makie it to Michigan State as well.


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## Ao the Overkitty (Sep 13, 2005)

AIM-54 said:
			
		

> I'm a Hockey East man, myself, but I like the ECAC.  Hopefully this year, we can get a team into the Frozen Four.




Union fan, myself.


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## AIM-54 (Sep 13, 2005)

devilbat said:
			
		

> Not at all.  I'm a St Cloud State Huskies fan, and I follow college hockey fairly closely.  I attend games at UND, U. of Minn. and St. Cloud State every season.  One of these years I'll makie it to Michigan State as well.




Well, there's gonna be some barnburners out there this year!  UMinn looks like the team to beat...again.

I saw SCSU at the east regional back in 00.  Good team.  Still, glad we beat 'em   But maybe there's room for optimism with the new coach, eh?


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## devilbat (Sep 13, 2005)

> I saw SCSU at the east regional back in 00. Good team. Still, glad we beat 'em  But maybe there's room for optimism with the new coach, eh?




Yeah, I'm looking forward to see what Motzko can do with the team.  It's nice to have a former player and graduate take up the head coaching job.


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## AIM-54 (Sep 13, 2005)

Ao the Overkitty said:
			
		

> Union fan, myself.




Interesting, don't see too many of them.    I like to see Union and all the other small teams do well, though.  Maybe it's guilt 'cause I'm a BU fan and we're usually good.  Except recently, but I won't get started on that.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 13, 2005)

I think it's hilarious that a thread started by a rant about hating football turned into a discussion among football fans...

Frankly, I don't like football, but it doesn't cause me to fly into a maniacal rage. Whatever people enjoy, I don't really care.

Demiurge out.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 13, 2005)

BlackSilver said:
			
		

> Hay, I like football- oh, you mean Football.  Sorry, I agree, Football isn't really a sport, but Soccer- well that is a sport.



I beg to differ. I used to like soccer, but with such low scores (just like baseball, which I'm not a fan of), it eventually turns me off (around my teen year).

Sometimes I'll watch it (i.e., US team is in the championship match), but it is not high in my viewing priority list.

Maybe if they do allow full-contact tackling but cannot touch the ball with their hands and arms, I might enjoy.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Sep 13, 2005)

I could truly not care less about football, or any other sport really.  My son is playing football for the first time this year, so I have to buck up and support him.  I'm very proud of him for trying it, as he's never been one who took much interest in new things before.   There's a long athletic tradition from his mom's side of the family, and I think he's doing it partially to honor his grandfather, who passed last year.


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## der_kluge (Sep 13, 2005)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I think it's hilarious that a thread started by a rant about hating football turned into a discussion among football fans...
> 
> Frankly, I don't like football, but it doesn't cause me to fly into a maniacal rage. Whatever people enjoy, I don't really care.
> 
> Demiurge out.




Yea, I'm loving the irony.    

Hey, this thread is for people who HATE football!


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## der_kluge (Sep 13, 2005)

I don't know why I hate sports so much. I just do. I didn't grow up watching it, my parents weren't into it at all. And I grew up in Arkansas - a place with no professional team. I'm sure all of that has something to do with it.

I think it's just stupid and pointless. I'm just at a loss when I see people screaming at a game, or at the TV about something that happened. It's a freaking game.

I enjoy watching the Olympics, because those are individuals competing, and their amateurs who I know have trained their whole lives for that particular event. I can respect that, and I enjoy that.

Football is just pointless. Rabid fans with makeup on their face screaming watching a bunch of no-neck guys, most of whom barely have a high school education, try to get a little leather object from one end of a rectangle to the other end of the rectangle. It might be more entertaining if they could actually use their brains to accomplish this task, but they have to just beat each other senseless in order to accomplish it. So, that's not very interesting. If I wanted to see that, I'd just watch boxing and be done with it.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 13, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> I don't know why I hate sports so much. I just do. I didn't grow up watching it, my parents weren't into it at all. And I grew up in Arkansas - a place with no professional team. I'm sure all of that has something to do with it.
> 
> I think it's just stupid and pointless. I'm just at a loss when I see people screaming at a game, or at the TV about something that happened. It's a freaking game.



It's a social thing, like gathering around a table for a _D&D_ game session.

Besides, I like the full-contact tackles and whatnot. Seeing something aggressive is a good way to vent my pent-up craps I've been having throughout my workdays.


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## Darth K'Trava (Sep 13, 2005)

Aeson said:
			
		

> Don't forget to take his stuff.




Of course! Being a pirate and all leads to one thing: PLUNDER!!!   



> I like football. In both its forms. I like Baseball also. I don't follow the other sports too much. I don't know why gamers and or geeks don't. Were you picked on by the jocks too often?




I guess he was picked on by the jocks...

I watch pro football but college basketball. Go figure....  :\


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## Darth K'Trava (Sep 13, 2005)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I think it's hilarious that a thread started by a rant about hating football turned into a discussion among football fans...
> 
> Frankly, I don't like football, but it doesn't cause me to fly into a maniacal rage. Whatever people enjoy, I don't really care.
> 
> Demiurge out.




It seemed to have brought out us fans who support the sport in amongst those who don't like it (to put it mildly).


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## GlassJaw (Sep 13, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> Football is just pointless. Rabid fans with makeup on their face screaming watching a bunch of no-neck guys, most of whom barely have a high school education, try to get a little leather object from one end of a rectangle to the other end of the rectangle. It might be more entertaining if they could actually use their brains to accomplish this task, but they have to just beat each other senseless in order to accomplish it. So, that's not very interesting. If I wanted to see that, I'd just watch boxing and be done with it.




Curtis, I know you're a smart guy but I have to call on these comments. You've made some rather harsh and inflammatory statements here, nevermind stereotyping all football fans.  That's just not cool.  Are there sports fans that fit your description?  Sure.  Are there gamers that fit all the stereotypes as well?  Definitely.

Your comments also show how little you know about the game itself, how it's played, and its fans.  I like football.  I'm a pretty hardcore Pats fan.  I like fantasy football.  I'm also a diehard Sox fan.  Heck, I like boxing too.  Do I fit any of your above description?  Absolutely not.

In the same vein, I'm at a loss when I meet people who take no interest in sports at all.  It boggles my mind actually.  I grew up in New England.  I grew up with stories from my dad and uncles and grandfathers about going to games when they were young and seeing Ted Williams play or going to see the Patriots in their first season and my first trip to Fenway.

To each their own.


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## loki44 (Sep 14, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> I think it's just stupid and pointless.




What do you do for a living?  I'm quite sure a case can be made for whatever it is being stupid and pointless as well.....but that's just one man's opinion.


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## loki44 (Sep 14, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> Share you hatred.




Is this grammatically correct?


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## Darth K'Trava (Sep 14, 2005)

> Originally Posted by der_kluge
> Share you hatred.






			
				loki44 said:
			
		

> Is this grammatically correct?




Nope. It's not. Now, if he'd used *your* instead, he'd have been fine.


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## AIM-54 (Sep 14, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> Your comments also show how little you know about the game itself, how it's played, and its fans.




Truth.  Understanding the strategy and tactics of football or baseball or hockey is half the fun.  Go on any sports message board and you'll see players arguing over the decisions made by the players and coaches of their favorite team.  Football, with its library of plays that each player must memorize and then execute in conjunction with ten other individuals indicates that a certain level of mental acuity is required to perform at a high level.  The number of off-sides penalties in any game belies the idea that this is easy.  

If you've ever played any of these sports at full speed at any level, you know how hard it is to get all that right, plus the physical challenges of competing with other athletes.  I have a great deal of respect for anyone who can play these games at that level.


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## Kahuna Burger (Sep 14, 2005)

I can't help but notice that on casual observation, the Kluge didn't crap in or in anyway disrupt the several football related threads currently open, but let those threads be about football enjoyment while opening his own thread for 'teh hat'. A level of courtesy people don't seem to be extending back.

But back to the point of the thread. In addition to its other flaws, football is possibily the most subjectively ranked sport ever. College football is ranked based on a tallying of opinion polls. Not record, comparitive record, points scored or any other statistic. The number one team in the country is whatever team more sportwriters like. What is that all about? I'll tell you, its about football players being such wimps that they can't play enough games to actually rate performance. 

And the superbowl! the only 'championship' I'm aware of which is decided in a single game, because they can't possibly play a series like every other chamionship on the planet. Wusses. Wusses ranked in a popularity contest.


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## Crothian (Sep 14, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> Not record, comparitive record, points scored or any other statistic. The number one team in the country is whatever team more sportwriters like. What is that all about? I'll tell you, its about football players being such wimps that they can't play enough games to actually rate performance.




They tried it the otyher way, BCS ring a bell....it didn't work.


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## Kahuna Burger (Sep 14, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> They tried it the otyher way, BCS ring a bell....it didn't work.



right, because they're wusses.    You did read the title and the first post, right? this is the football hate thread.


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## ClashmoreDave (Sep 14, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> They tried it the otyher way, BCS ring a bell....it didn't work.



 Yes, lets go back to the old ways.
While many people complained about my Irish being favored by the big bowls, at least the games were interesting, AND on the right day.
RIP New Year's Day football.


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## loki44 (Sep 14, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> I can't help but notice that on casual observation, the Kluge didn't crap in or in anyway disrupt the several football related threads currently open, but let those threads be about football enjoyment while opening his own thread for 'teh hat'.




Huh?  I think what this thread overwhelmingly shows is that Kluge is a playa hater who has relatively little support on this topic across the board.  Voicing a dissenting opinion is not "crapping", nor should it be considered in those terms.  Now, the people who want to turn this into an anti-BCS thread, they could rightfully be considered as "hijackers".....though "crappers" might still be a bit strong.  How the national championship is determined within the college football arena has absolutely nothing to do with the merits of football as a game, or any other professional sport (including "amateur" Olympic sports).  

What does 'teh hat' mean BTW?


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## Kahuna Burger (Sep 14, 2005)

loki44 said:
			
		

> What does 'teh hat' mean BTW?



its a joke on a common typo. The Hate. like the old "my hat of" etc.

As for the rest, the thread was specificly opened as a place to rant about football, in an over-the-top way that football haters can enjoy, not to discuss its relitive merits. So any insult to the game is on topic and any defense of the game is thread crapping. very simple.


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## GlassJaw (Sep 14, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> I can't help but notice that on casual observation, the Kluge didn't crap in or in anyway disrupt the several football related threads currently open, but let those threads be about football enjoyment while opening his own thread for 'teh hat'. A level of courtesy people don't seem to be extending back.




Level of courtesy?  How about not negatively stereotyping football fans for starters?  Saying you don't like the color red is one thing.  Saying that everyone who likes the color red worships Satan and drinks blood is another.  As a sports fan, I felt a need to defend myself.


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## Darth K'Trava (Sep 14, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> Level of courtesy?  How about not negatively stereotyping football fans for starters?  Saying you don't like the color red is one thing.  Saying that everyone who likes the color red worships Satan and drinks blood is another.  As a sports fan, I felt a need to defend myself.




Hear, hear! Not all of us put on face paint and act like a bunch of barbarians!


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## BlackSilver (Sep 14, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Sometimes I'll watch it (i.e., US team is in the championship match), but it is not high in my viewing priority list.




I am not much of a sports fan myself, but soccer is my choice team sport.


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## Mystery Man (Sep 14, 2005)

_Girls_ play soccer.


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## CarlZog (Sep 14, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> Football is just pointless. Rabid fans with makeup on their face screaming watching a bunch of no-neck guys, most of whom barely have a high school education, try to get a little leather object from one end of a rectangle to the other end of the rectangle. It might be more entertaining if they could actually use their brains to accomplish this task, but they have to just beat each other senseless in order to accomplish it. So, that's not very interesting. If I wanted to see that, I'd just watch boxing and be done with it.




OK, I'm not much o a football fan at all, but here's the thing you have to remember:

A) Forget about the rapid fans and the whole aura surrounding the sport. None of it is relevant to the game.

B) The game itself is a basic tactical wargame. It's all about securing territorial objectives. There really is a lot of brains required, just not necessarily by the infantry on the frontline. The constraints of the "rectangle" actually highlight the need for tactics. There's no terrain benefits or cover to be had, so you're reduced to coming up with really effective flanking operations, or resorting to full-on frontal assaults -- assuming you're confident that you have the power to push through. If you have a capable aerial force, you can get behind the lines, but still need to maintain ground protection to the force at both ends -- while it's taking off and landing. Each of the players, or groups of types of players, are nothing more than different components contributing different skills to the equation: the strong melee warrior, the sneaky fleet-footed thief, the archer, and the wizard guiding them all.

Carl


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## Thornir Alekeg (Sep 14, 2005)

CarlZog said:
			
		

> B) The game itself is a basic tactical wargame. It's all about securing territorial objectives. There really is a lot of brains required, just not necessarily by the infantry on the frontline. The constraints of the "rectangle" actually highlight the need for tactics. There's no terrain benefits or cover to be had, so you're reduced to coming up with really effective flanking operations, or resorting to full-on frontal assaults -- assuming you're confident that you have the power to push through. If you have a capable aerial force, you can get behind the lines, but still need to maintain ground protection to the force at both ends -- while it's taking off and landing. Each of the players, or groups of types of players, are nothing more than different components contributing different skills to the equation: the strong melee warrior, the sneaky fleet-footed thief, the archer, and the wizard guiding them all.
> 
> Carl



Wow, that's just...profound   

Well, I for one love football (and only made my own sarcastic post poking fun at the "of the devil" part), but I understand that some people don't.  No problem, there are a few sports I just don't get and don't enjoy, but I do avoid characterizing people who enjoy those sports as being somehow inferior for it...well except maybe for "Professional wrestling" but that isn't really a sport anyway.


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## AIM-54 (Sep 14, 2005)

CarlZog said:
			
		

> B) The game itself is a basic tactical wargame. It's all about securing territorial objectives. There really is a lot of brains required, just not necessarily by the infantry on the frontline. The constraints of the "rectangle" actually highlight the need for tactics. There's no terrain benefits or cover to be had, so you're reduced to coming up with really effective flanking operations, or resorting to full-on frontal assaults -- assuming you're confident that you have the power to push through. If you have a capable aerial force, you can get behind the lines, but still need to maintain ground protection to the force at both ends -- while it's taking off and landing. Each of the players, or groups of types of players, are nothing more than different components contributing different skills to the equation: the strong melee warrior, the sneaky fleet-footed thief, the archer, and the wizard guiding them all.
> 
> Carl




Heh.  Awesome.


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## ssampier (Sep 14, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> It's a social thing, like gathering around a table for a _D&D_ game session.
> 
> Besides, I like the full-contact tackles and whatnot. Seeing something aggressive is a good way to vent my pent-up craps I've been having throughout my workdays.




Humm, good point. I'm not a sports fan, but when my ex-roomates wanted to watch a game, I was fine with it. If watch the game on TV by myself, it's not as interesting.


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## MaxKaladin (Sep 14, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> I can't help but notice that on casual observation, the Kluge didn't crap in or in anyway disrupt the several football related threads currently open, but let those threads be about football enjoyment while opening his own thread for 'teh hat'. A level of courtesy people don't seem to be extending back.



Yep.  This is a perfect example of what I hate about sports, too.  I've generally found that those of us who don't like sports generally just keep it to ourselves.  Sports fans don't like to return that courtesy.  The moment they get wind of someone saying they hate sports, they immediately leap to the defense.  We get blessed with all sorts of talk about how great people think their favorite sports are to wistful reflection on the cameraderie of watching a game with friends to comments about how "strange" they find someone who doesn't like sports is.  Even though sports fans are free to have as many sports threads as they want, many of them evidently believe this thread here must be subverted to sports and some even take some sort of delight in hijacking it and rubbing salt in the wound by pointing out how much in the minority the original poster is.  Believe me, we know we're a minority -- we're seldom allowed to forget it.  The fact that a few of us in our minority grousing in our metaphorical corner cannot be tolerated is very much the sort of thing I dislike about sports.  

Now, someone is preparing to point out that this has nothing to do with the sports themselves and they're right.  An epiphany I had some time back is that I don't hate the sports themselves.  I hate the sports culture that surrounds them.  I hate the fact that so many fans cannot seem to understand or tolerate the idea that some of us just don't care about their games.  I hate the way so many sports fans feel the need to push and poke at us for our lack of interest.  I hate the way some sports fans think we must be drowned out and silenced should we ever dare to voice any dislike of sports.  I hate the way some sports fans seem to feel the need to assimilate us like they are part of some sort of borg collective.  The thing is that I don't hate sports.  I simply don't care about them one way or the other.  I think that indifference infuriates some sports fans.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 14, 2005)

ssampier said:
			
		

> Humm, good point. I'm not a sports fan, but when my ex-roomates wanted to watch a game, I was fine with it. If watch the game on TV by myself, it's not as interesting.



Meh. Before _D&D,_ I had a normal life, played basketball (usually at my dad's urging to help me lose weight; didn't helped) and watched Celtics games. I hang with friends who prefer the Lakers (the kind of friends who find _D&D_ alien until they become adults), and always gather around the TV set watching them go head-to-head: Larry Bird vs. Magic Johnson. We trash-talked about whose team is best, yell at TV when the referee puts out a bad call or never call a foul, but all in all we had fun.

I also have friends that don't find sports interesting and that's cool.


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## AIM-54 (Sep 14, 2005)

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> Yep.  This is a perfect example of what I hate about sports, too.  I've generally found that those of us who don't like sports generally just keep it to ourselves.  Sports fans don't like to return that courtesy.  The moment they get wind of someone saying they hate sports, they immediately leap to the defense.  We get blessed with all sorts of talk about how great people think their favorite sports are to wistful reflection on the cameraderie of watching a game with friends to comments about how "strange" they find someone who doesn't like sports is.  Even though sports fans are free to have as many sports threads as they want, many of them evidently believe this thread here must be subverted to sports and some even take some sort of delight in hijacking it and rubbing salt in the wound by pointing out how much in the minority the original poster is.  Believe me, we know we're a minority -- we're seldom allowed to forget it.  The fact that a few of us in our minority grousing in our metaphorical corner cannot be tolerated is very much the sort of thing I dislike about sports.
> 
> Now, someone is preparing to point out that this has nothing to do with the sports themselves and they're right.  An epiphany I had some time back is that I don't hate the sports themselves.  I hate the sports culture that surrounds them.  I hate the fact that so many fans cannot seem to understand or tolerate the idea that some of us just don't care about their games.  I hate the way so many sports fans feel the need to push and poke at us for our lack of interest.  I hate the way some sports fans think we must be drowned out and silenced should we ever dare to voice any dislike of sports.  I hate the way some sports fans seem to feel the need to assimilate us like they are part of some sort of borg collective.  The thing is that I don't hate sports.  I simply don't care about them one way or the other.  I think that indifference infuriates some sports fans.




Get off your high horse and come chill with us commoners sometime.  You might even have fun.


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## Crothian (Sep 14, 2005)

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> Yep.  This is a perfect example of what I hate about sports, too.  I've generally found that those of us who don't like sports generally just keep it to ourselves.  Sports fans don't like to return that courtesy.  The moment they get wind of someone saying they hate sports, they immediately leap to the defense.




Gamers do the same thing.  Someone comes along ansd says they hate RPG, gamers leap to the defense of their beloved games.  So, its not like its unique to the sports world.


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## der_kluge (Sep 14, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> Level of courtesy?  How about not negatively stereotyping football fans for starters?  Saying you don't like the color red is one thing.  Saying that everyone who likes the color red worships Satan and drinks blood is another.  As a sports fan, I felt a need to defend myself.




The title is a reference to "WaterBoy". Maybe I should have said "Foosball is of the devil". That would have been more appropriate.

And for the record, no I was never picked on by jocks in high school.  My graduating class was 72 people. We didn't really have any "jocks" per se. And I do understand how the sport is played. I just think it's silly.

Would as many people pay to watch two people play Mortal Kombat on a giant big-screen TV? It would arguably be as entertaining, and have a hell of a lot less time-outs in it.


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## MaxKaladin (Sep 14, 2005)

AIM-54 said:
			
		

> Get off your high horse and come chill with us commoners sometime.  You might even have fun.



I've been around it all my life.  I grew up and live in Texas, where Football is a second religion.  I was the only male member of my family not to like sports.  I've spent pretty much every holiday of my life around lots of guys hanging out watching sports and bonding.  It doesn't really do anything for me.  I've been to sporting events.  I did sports photography for my high school newspaper one year and all that got me was yelled at by the fans in the stands because I was bigger than some of our football players and I had the _audacity_ to not be on the team.  I think if it was going to "click", it would have happened by now.

I'm not trying to be stuck up about it.  I did some of that when I was younger, but I've outgrown it.  I just wish people would stop acting like an interest in sports was manditory.


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## Crothian (Sep 14, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> Would as many people pay to watch two people play Mortal Kombat on a giant big-screen TV? It would arguably be as entertaining, and have a hell of a lot less time-outs in it.




Only if they were really fighting


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Sep 14, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> Would as many people pay to watch two people play Mortal Kombat on a giant big-screen TV? It would arguably be as entertaining, and have a hell of a lot less time-outs in it.




How about watch 4 really good players playing Super Smash Brothers Melee? That can be insanely entertaining to watch.


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## AIM-54 (Sep 14, 2005)

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> I'm not trying to be stuck up about it.  I did some of that when I was younger, but I've outgrown it.  I just wish people would stop acting like an interest in sports was manditory.




Well, it came across that way, whatever the intent, but that's the nature of this form of communication.  :\ 

I don't think anyone here, at least, cares whether anyone else is a sports fan, but some of the generalizations and ignorance is enough to raise anyones hackles a bit.   

And Crothian's right...this sorta stuff happens all the time in the General forum where people do this kinda stuff about gaming.


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## Dark Jezter (Sep 15, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> Football is just pointless. Rabid fans with makeup on their face screaming watching a bunch of no-neck guys, most of whom barely have a high school education, try to get a little leather object from one end of a rectangle to the other end of the rectangle. It might be more entertaining if they could actually use their brains to accomplish this task, but they have to just beat each other senseless in order to accomplish it. So, that's not very interesting. If I wanted to see that, I'd just watch boxing and be done with it.




Indeed.  Football is pointless and stupid.  Meanwhile, sitting around a table rolling dice and pretending to be an elf is _such_ a great and productive pasttime.


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## Mystery Man (Sep 15, 2005)

I played defense in high school. The one thing I enjoyed about playing football was the ability to legally try to smash someone into a pulp and get away with it. Plus you have pads on so it doesn't hurt...that much. Knocking someone on their ass after you just hit them as hard as you could, well, I'm getting a warm glow just thinking about it. 

Plus you had all that learning to "play as a team", "character building" stuff too.


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## der_kluge (Sep 15, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Indeed.  Football is pointless and stupid.  Meanwhile, sitting around a table rolling dice and pretending to be an elf is _such_ a great and productive pasttime.





Totally not the same. 

In one activity, I'm watching a game.

In the other, I'm participating in the game.


Thanks. Drive through.


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## CarlZog (Sep 15, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> Would as many people pay to watch two people play Mortal Kombat on a giant big-screen TV? It would arguably be as entertaining, and have a hell of a lot less time-outs in it.




Well, you're not the only one thinking that....

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=148551

Carl


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## Ranger REG (Sep 15, 2005)

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> I'm not trying to be stuck up about it.  I did some of that when I was younger, but I've outgrown it.  I just wish people would stop acting like an interest in sports was manditory.



Isn't interest in RPG mandatory here?


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## Dark Jezter (Sep 15, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> Totally not the same.
> 
> In one activity, I'm watching a game.
> 
> ...



 Hobbies are hobbies.  You think that watching football is a stupid and pointless way to spend a weekend, and I'll bet that a lot of football fans would think the exact same of playing RPGs.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 15, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> Totally not the same.
> 
> In one activity, I'm watching a game.
> 
> ...



It is the same.

I can watch a RPG session going on, or I can participate.

I can watch a basketball or a football game going on, or I can pick up my football, grab a few of my buddies, and go out in the park and play.


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## CarlZog (Sep 15, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Hobbies are hobbies.




No, there are differenct kinds of hobbies. I'm inclined to agree with the distinction dK is drawing. There is a difference between activities in which a participant is primarily a passive consumer vs. those in which a participant is a creative producer. der Kluge clearly prefers the latter.

Consumer hobbies are those in which the hobbyist is primarily consuming the creative efforts of someone else. These are the equivalent of "fan-based" hobbies. It doesn't matter whether the subject is comic books, football or the opera. Fans may discuss their favorite works, write about it, and enjoy a lot of activities associated with the subject, but they are not active creators of the work. In other words, you may spend your time going to comic cons, tailgating at the stadium, or attending the opera, but you're not writing comics, playing football, or singing on stage.

Creative hobbies are those in which the participant is actually creating something  -- whether its a physical product, as in woodworking, gardening, painting;  or a performance, as in playing a musical instrument, playing a sport, or playing a game.

Obviously, you could pick this apart and say that there are many hobbies that are mix of the two, but I think the basic distinction is valid.

Edit: Ranger added:


			
				Ranger REG said:
			
		

> It is the same.
> 
> I can watch a RPG session going on, or I can participate.
> 
> I can watch a basketball or a football game going on, or I can pick up my football, grab a few of my buddies, and go out in the park and play.




You're right. You can. But which is the primary focus of the hobby?

Does going to watch other people play RPGs form the primary basis your role in the hobby? Or are you participating in a regularly scheduled, organized game?

Similarly, is your primary interaction with football consist of watching others play the game? Or do you play regularly scheduled games on an organized team?

There is a fundamental difference in the nature of the activity.

Carl


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## GlassJaw (Sep 15, 2005)

CarlZog said:
			
		

> There is a fundamental difference in the nature of the activity.




So what?  Does that give anyone a right to judge and classify a whole group of people based only their interests?  Again, not liking a particular activity, hobby, whatever is fine.  Negatively stereotyping people who enjoy a particular hobby or activity is another.  Not cool.


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## Rel (Sep 15, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> So what?  Does that give anyone a right to judge and classify a whole group of people based only their interests?  Again, not liking a particular activity, hobby, whatever is fine.  Negatively stereotyping people who enjoy a particular hobby or activity is another.  Not cool.




I agree and I'll also note that Der Kluge doesn't seem to have "teh hate" for all spectator sports.  He specifically indicated that he enjoyed watching the Olympics.  And he also didn't say, "I can understand if you like playing football or even Fantasy Football, where you're at least participating on some level."  He just doesn't like football.

What surprises me is that Der Kluge is trotting out an argument we see here all the time as it relates to RPG's.  Every single week some yahoo goes into General and says, "People who play in X manner are having badwrongfun and they should stop because it is an incorrect way to enjoy themselves."  And they always get called on it.

Of course everybody is going to have different tastes.  I wouldn't have it any other way.  And avoiding conversations about things you have no interest in is prudent and advisable.  But I don't get the concept that the several football related threads floating around Off Topic are somehow polluting the place.  Just don't read them.  

Hell, I LIKE football and I haven't been reading them.


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## CarlZog (Sep 15, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> So what?  Does that give anyone a right to judge and classify a whole group of people based only their interests?




It doesn't even give them the ability, much less a "right". In no way is it my intent that distinquishing between passive and active hobbies would serve as a tool for drawing broader conclusions about the characteristics of any given hobby's participants.



			
				Rel said:
			
		

> ....I'll also note that Der Kluge doesn't seem to have "teh hate" for all spectator sports.  He specifically indicated that he enjoyed watching the Olympics.  And he also didn't say, "I can understand if you like playing football or even Fantasy Football, where you're at least participating on some level."  He just doesn't like football.




You're right. Der Kluge held up the "spectator vs. participant" argument in one post, but that's clearly not his criteria for choosing.

Carl


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## MaxKaladin (Sep 15, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Isn't interest in RPG mandatory here?



I don't know.  I suppose if someone wanted to, they could just hang out here on the off-topic forum to participate in the various off-topic threads and not care at all about RPGs.  People generally expect someone here to be interested in RPGs though.  

In any case, that's not what I was talking about.  What I'm talking about is the idea many sports fans seem to have that because I'm male I am required to be interested in sports or that because I live in San Antonio, I am required to be a enthusiastic fan of the Spurs.  I'm not the only one to notice this.  There is more than one comment upthread about how others have experienced this sort of thing.  That's what I'm talking about as an interest in sports being manditory.  

I don't view the two as the same thing.  Expecting the people in the stadium or the sports bar to be sports fans or the people at a game convention or a RPG message board to be RPG fans is one thing and pretty reasonable.  Requiring me to be a fan because I happen to live in the same city or because of my gender isn't.


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## Henry (Sep 15, 2005)

OK, more serious suggestion: That book by Holly Peete is actually interesting stuff, and does point out that there's a lot more strategy that goes on than what it looks like. Curtis, Next time you find yourself strolling a Borders or Books a Million, it'd be worth the 5 min. to read the first chapter. Despite me being bored to tears with watching most "Ball Sports," it was an interesting read.


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## Henry (Sep 15, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> It is the same.
> 
> I can watch a RPG session going on, or I can participate.
> 
> I can watch a basketball or a football game going on, or I can pick up my football, grab a few of my buddies, and go out in the park and play.




Yeah, but one thing to notice is that Der Kluge also doesn't spend much of any time in the Rules forum, from what I see, which is more or less where discussion of RPGs goes on, which is similar to sports fans gawking and discussing football plays.


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## Crothian (Sep 15, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> Yeah, but one thing to notice is that Der Kluge also doesn't spend much of any time in the Rules forum, from what I see, which is more or less where discussion of RPGs goes on, which is similar to sports fans gawking and discussing football plays.




But even general discussion is akin to sports fans just talking about sports.  Publishing forum is getting feedback from coaches and players and people actually involved in the industry.  House rules are things like Canadian football    so most forums here have an equivilent in the sports universe.


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## Darth K'Trava (Sep 16, 2005)

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> Yep.  This is a perfect example of what I hate about sports, too.  I've generally found that those of us who don't like sports generally just keep it to ourselves.  Sports fans don't like to return that courtesy.  The moment they get wind of someone saying they hate sports, they immediately leap to the defense.




Sounds like those who react the same way regarding religion and politics. I have a friend who will argue 'till his face is blue about his political views and be pretty much damned about how *you* feel about it....  :\ I don't have too much of a prob with it as mine are similar to his, but he's just a bit too ardent about his POV.

And there are those who give the same spiel regarding their religious affiliation too.

So it's not just sports fan(atics) who react vehemently to defend their "passion"....


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## Ranger REG (Sep 16, 2005)

CarlZog said:
			
		

> You're right. You can. But which is the primary focus of the hobby?
> 
> Does going to watch other people play RPGs form the primary basis your role in the hobby? Or are you participating in a regularly scheduled, organized game?
> 
> ...



Does it matter? Note I didn't say hobby in any of my posts discussed here. Both are social activities, whether you participate or watch (like being a spectator at a RPG tournaments in a local game convention).


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## GlassJaw (Sep 16, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> So it's not just sports fan(atics) who react vehemently to defend their "passion"....




Who's defending anything?  I'm certainly not.  I could care less if someone likes football or not.  I just take exception to someone who negatively stereotypes _everyone _that enjoys a particular hobby.


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## Crothian (Sep 16, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> Who's defending anything?  I'm certainly not.  I could care less if someone likes football or not.  I just take exception to someone who negatively stereotypes _everyone _that enjoy s a particular hobby.




Especially, gamers who have it happen to them all the time.  If any group should know better it should be us.


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## ssampier (Sep 16, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Meh. Before _D&D,_ I had a normal life, played basketball (usually at my dad's urging to help me lose weight; didn't helped) and watched Celtics games. I hang with friends who prefer the Lakers (the kind of friends who find _D&D_ alien until they become adults), and always gather around the TV set watching them go head-to-head: Larry Bird vs. Magic Johnson. We trash-talked about whose team is best, yell at TV when the referee puts out a bad call or never call a foul, but all in all we had fun.
> 
> I also have friends that don't find sports interesting and that's cool.




Normal?


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## Ranger REG (Sep 16, 2005)

ssampier said:
			
		

> Normal?



As in "mainstream."


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## der_kluge (Sep 18, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> Who's defending anything?  I'm certainly not.  I could care less if someone likes football or not.  I just take exception to someone who negatively stereotypes _everyone _that enjoys a particular hobby.




Dude, where did I negatively stereotype everyone that likes football?  If you like football, more power to you. I'm glad it makes you happy. I just think it's a boring, waste of time.

This has turned into a weird thread. I stated I didn't like football, and now people are psychoanalyzing me.  Wow.


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## Darth K'Trava (Sep 18, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> Dude, where did I negatively stereotype everyone that likes football?  If you like football, more power to you. I'm glad it makes you happy. I just think it's a boring, waste of time.
> 
> This has turned into a weird thread. I stated I didn't like football, and now people are psychoanalyzing me.  Wow.




You know some people. They have a "PhD in Bullcrap".....   

And I used to think football was a "boring waste of time"...   Not that I'm saying you'll change your mind.


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## Crothian (Sep 18, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> Dude, where did I negatively stereotype everyone that likes football?  If you like football, more power to you. I'm glad it makes you happy. I just think it's a boring, waste of time.
> 
> This has turned into a weird thread. I stated I didn't like football, and now people are psychoanalyzing me.  Wow.




I think this dislike of football is deeply rooted into yous subconscious.


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