# D&D General Are you jumping ship? What will you be switching to?



## Haplo781

If you're jumping ship, which system/game will you be switching to?


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## Haplo781

Personally, I will continue playing 4e and have a look at the upcoming Gloomhaven RPG.


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## Stormonu

Not jumping ship, but not necessarily going forward with new content.

Although seeing the Renegade Studio games (GI Joe, Transformers), there are things I like about that system quite a bit and could see using it as a basic for a Fantasy system.


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## Reynard

I ended my 5E campaign and am immediately starting a Starfinder campaign. Paizo has been a champion of Open gaming for a long time and deserves my support (even if I kind of don't like PF2).


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## Scribe

Pathfinder, with the assumption that they dont get into bed with Wizards on some side deal.


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## bedir than

I expect I'll go where I can find games. There are several I want to play and maybe this OGL thing will get some people in my area to lead Blades in the Dark, Flames of Freedom and Twilight: 2000.


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## Jadeite

I'm currently checking the Pathfinder 2 PDFs I got a while ago through Humble Bundles. And then there's Exalted, Trinity, Scion, CofD, They came from ..., Shadowrun, Earthdawn, Midgard and several other systems.


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## Retreater

Group A: Will continue with 5e for the duration of the current campaign [or until Roll20 ceases, as this is an online game]. After that, I will hang up the DM's hat with this group and take a sabbatical.

Group B: We're in the process of an AP of Pathfinder 2E. I hope to be able to complete it [depending on if Foundry survives]. If Foundry VTT goes - because I can't get an in-person game of 2E in my area, that system will basically be over for me.

Group C: We're in the middle of a 5e campaign. Likely we'll be doing Curse of Strahd next. As I already own the books, I'm fine sticking with the current system. 

But please don't misunderstand me. I really hate what's going on, and I won't be supporting WotC going forward. So they're getting nothing financially from me. I will continue to buy products from indie and 3PPs even though I'm running 5e.


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## iserith

I don't plan on jumping any ships.


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## el-remmen

I was never on a ship to begin with. To my mind "D&D" and "what WotC (or any other publisher) might print" are not synonymous. I'll keep playing D&D, whether it is 5E, some amalgam of previous editions, or some wholly homebrewed thing for me and my friends. I just probably won't be buying any new WotC while this regime/policy remains in effect.


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## Malmuria

In terms of dnd: Currently a player in a Mausritter game.  

Other possibilities for the year: Whitehack, OSE with Dolmenwood (though it looks like there might not be KS due to this OGL business)

Non dnd: The Between, Wanderhome, Cthulhu Dark, maybe more Blades in the Dark


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## deganawida

TLG has said that they're stripping out stuff to continue publishing Castles & Crusades, so I'll be playing that (once I convince my main group to switch...).

Over lunch, I bought the Savage Worlds SWADE hardcover and PDF for my family.  Will be reviewing that tonight with my wife and daughters.

Heck, I'm even looking at that Palladium Fantasy 1st Edition Revised PDF I bought last spring as a possibility.


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## Dioltach

I'm loyal to WotC. I'll stick with them for as long as they keep publishing material for D&D3.5, Star Wars D20 and D20 Modern.


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## Riley

If I bailed on 5e, it would probably be for B/X or 1-2e.  All of which, along with 3e/PF1, etc., Wizards asserts are now dead along with OGL1.0a.


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## EzekielRaiden

bedir than said:


> I expect I'll go where I can find games.



_Sometimes you wanna go
Where everybody plays your game
And they're always glad you came
You wanna be where you can see
Our sheets are all the same
You wanna be where everybody plays
Your game._


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## overgeeked

For D&D-like games it will be older editions of D&D and OSR games for me. Dungeon Crawl Classics, Old-School Essentials, Maze Rats, etc.

For everything else I'll just keep on keeping on. Evangelize more about FKR. Support game companies that aren't pure evil.

Hopefully this means it will now be easier to get some non-D&D games going.


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## billd91

What I run depends on what we, as a group, want to play. I like 5e - I have no problem running it. Buying anything more from WotC... that's another question.
Unfortunately, my younger daughter is a big fan of D&D Beyond - she had a subscription for the last couple of years and plays with her friends. But she's not happy with the licensing issue either. So she's torn.


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## W'rkncacnter

assuming paizo doesn't make a deal with WoTC, i'm still in a pf2e game and i think it'll end up still being available in the future (whether paizo goes for the suit or just drops the OGL entirely).

i also have all my level up a5e content as pdfs...so at least i can also still run that if i want to.

edit: also i might end up buying more WOIN books and giving that a try. i've got OLD but that's about it atm.


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## Aldarc

WAY TOO EARLY to tell. WotC has not issued a statement. Barely any of the major players have made their moves known. I was not planning on jumping ship, but I have been walking away already for unrelated reasons. My gaming time is precious, and I want to force myself to play or run other games that also interest me. 6e or One D&D does not look different enough to kindle any further desire to play it.


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## Corinnguard

I wouldn't mind continuing on with Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition if things continue to head south with WoTC.


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## payn

I was actually thinking about boarding the ship with D&D One, but that's over now. I'll stick to Traveller, Pathfinder, etc...

Thankfully my Foundry files are local so I can keep playing my games with no issue. Although, losing adventure module support obviously sucks (if it happens).


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## Incenjucar

I had already sat out 5E but was going to go all in on 5.5E, so I have the advantage of having no momentum to what I'm playing. Assuming it's an option, I'll probably go to Pathfinder, unless something else is easier to find a local game for. They have a bunch of elemental stuff coming down the pipe, after all.


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## Princessmaker

I'm jumping the ship. I'll use something authoral in home until the OSR/NSR communities does something like a "Council of Trent" and decides/makes a truly-free skeleton of a game that it's not retrocompatible but it's compatible between itself, and then I'll probably jump to that.


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## Zardnaar

Use existing library and break out clones and 2E on occasion. 

 General boycott of WotC related things and the movie, video game etc.


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## TwoSix

I didn't have any plans to move onto OneD&D, so the various goings-on haven't changed anything for me in that regard.  I'll probably continue to play/run 2014 5e with all the third-party content I have, but if this encourages some of my groups to try out some NSR stuff, or Worlds Without Number, or SotDL/WW, so much the better.


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## Incenjucar

Long term, I want to find a place I can safely create. I have a handful of ideas I've been carrying around for decades, and a few newer ones, and I'd love to share them with everyone, and if it really took off I'd love to be able to do that full time. The system that lets me find out if people would like those ideas that much is the one I'll stick with.


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## AnotherGuy

Allows me to focus on games I have which I haven't tried out yet
For Medieval Fantasy +Magic: Heavily homebrewed 5e, Shadow of the Demon Lord and Torch Bearer
Maybe even Dark Ages: Fae - as I have some ideas running around in my head to blend with history.
Post-Apocalyptic: Summerland 
Horror Modern: Grimm


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## jmartkdr2

I’m already playing PF2, though it’s not likely to be the only game I play going forward. I’m waiting for 13th Age 2nd Edition news (though I’m not really into crowdfunding stuff) and am willing to try whatever, but currently PF2 is winning the bulk of my affection.


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## DarkCrisis

Playing more than one game means I never have to "jump ship".

While you may only be able to play one at a time, it's a good idea to expand your horizons past D&D. A lot of good stuff out there for different genres.

Things I plan to play this year: 
More AD&D 2E.  And/Or maybe some BECMI
The One Ring
Blade Runner
Cyberpunk
Avatar TLB
Terminator

Oh and Star Trek maybe.  Possibly Star Wars.


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## Cruentus

Be sticking with Basic/OSE for the foreseeable future.

Will also be trying out Pendragon, Alien RPG, and some other ‘built for purpose’ games.


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## Vaalingrade

Free from the delusions I once had that 5.5e was going to be a return to form after 5e core, I shall continue on with my own system, hopefully finishing the thing for publishing while everyone else is still scrambling to realign.


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## CleverNickName

If I'm not playing 5th Edition, I'm probably playing BECMI.  And if I'm not playing D&D, I'm probably playing Call of Cthulhu or Dread.  These have both been true for the last decade, and will continue to be true for decades to come.  So I'm good.


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## Stormonu

CleverNickName said:


> If I'm not playing 5th Edition, I'm probably playing BECMI.  And if I'm not playing D&D, I'm probably playing Call of Cthulhu or Dread.  These have both been true for the last decade, and will continue to be true for decades to come.  So I'm good.



I picked up Old School Essentials and the Advanced version on a lark last year, but recent events have had me considering running a game (maybe B4 or B3 -> X2 -> ?? ).  I may actually even pull my 2E books off the shelf and give them a good dusting.


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## FallenRX

Probably pf2e, but if the OGL really screws them, and they cant make a non ogl option, Probably WWN, it is a great middle ground between modern 5e design, and OSR, that works well, light weight, and fun.
Maybe give Savage worlds a shot too. since its actually a generic system that can do a lot unlike 5e


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## kigmatzomat

When its next my turn to run, odds are I will pull out EarthDawn again. I usually don't run the default setting but put it into something historic (e.g. Roman Empire, Beowulf, etc).


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## aco175

If I was jumping ship, it would be for Pathfinder since I/we would adjust the quickest to the rules if they are still close(ish) to 3.5.  I'm not planning on jumping though and have been through a lot with the game and all the old companies that owned it.  

A lot of the 3PP stuff may fade, but some may rise and some companies might stay around.  I mostly homebrew a FR game so little will affect me.


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## pantsorama

RoleMaster Unified!  It's pretty good.


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## CleverNickName

I also have a copy of Mouseguard that I never got to try out.  Maybe I'll put a one-shot together, for the next time a gaming session gets rescheduled...


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## Corinnguard

Another RPG I wouldn't mind jumping ship for would have to be _Mutants and Masterminds 2nd edition_.


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## cbwjm

Unrelated to the whole OGL controversy, I want to run a transformers or fabula ultima game. Fabula ultima seems like a nice simple game with some interesting mechanics that I'm tempted to pull into my 5e games, primarily inventory points that you can spend to "create" some basic items.


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## Weiley31

While I'm not going to be jumping ship, the amount of 5E Kickstarters I back or what not will probably go down significantly. _THANKFULLY_ stuff like Humblewood, Iron Kingdom Requiem, and the Kobold Press books I wanted to have already came out or will come out soon if they are a current kickstarter that's near fullfillment.

In the meantime, I'm gonna start getting the OSE books and will look  into getting Mork Borg, Cy-Borg, Demon Dogs and Forbidden Psalms so I can get around to combining all four in an unholy combo for campaigns.

Soulbound: Era of the Beast is out in PDF form, so now I'll pretty much have all the books I need to start playing that.

As for 3PP 5E, I'm gonna get what I can in the form of Kamon, Undying Corruption, Steinhardt's Guide to the Eldritch Hunt, Animal Adventures: The Faraway Sea, Adventurer's Guide to the Bible and going to see into backing Azreal's Guide to Revelations as well as Acheron's games Apocalypse: John's guide to Armageddon.

And then there's DCC. I want to get the Dying Earth boxed set, Weird Frontiers, and the Class Alphabet book.


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## Knuffeldraak

Don't see a reason to jump ship from 5e. But if I would, I'd probably develop my own TTARPG framework.


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## Lojaan

I'm becoming increasingly interested in OSR games like Shadow dark. 

I want to want to play PF2 but goddam it's just so exhausting


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## Staffan

If Wizards goes through with this, I'm not buying anything from them again. I may or may not finish off the Princes of the Apocalypse campaign that's almost done that we put on hiatus at the start of the pandemic. I'd feel a little dirty, but at the same time stopping an apocalypse might be cathartic.

Fortunately, I have plenty of other games around. Just this weekend, I started a campaign in Age of Rebellion for one of my groups. I'd love to continue with The Troubleshooters with the other. Other than those, I have other games I'd like to give a whirl, Earthdawn and TORG chief among them (if I can get one of my crews to play TORG, that is). Pathfinder 2 is of course also an option, though one of the groups soured a bit on it after Agents of Edgewatch.


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## Weiley31

Also, gotta nab Unchartered Journeys from Cubicle 7. While I was excited for the Vault 5E stuff they were planning on doing, there seems to be a possibility they are changing to the C7d6 system if things continue at this pace with the OGL changes and what not.
I would probably say it's a good idea to nab all the 5E 3PP you're interested in before somehow, Hasbro mandates that stuff like that be taken down and made unsellable.


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## Tonguez

Been checking out Ironsworn and liking what I’ve seen

FATEs an easy go to, or something entirely different -Princess World


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## schneeland

I guess, I have already half-jumped (after our current campaign completes, I don't see myself playing 5e again), but given the state of affairs, I will also not return for 5.1e.

For a fantasy game, my go to systems would be:

Forbidden Lands
Dungeon Crawl Classics
Old-School Essentials (B/X D&D)

But it's looking like our next game will rather be non-fantasy. Likely candidates are:

Vaesen
Call of Cthulhu/Pulp Cthulhu

I also have an ongoing game with Savage Worlds/Sprawlrunners and plan to do a couple of one-shots using Broken Compass and maybe also Dragonbane.

So all in all, I'm a multi-systems guy already, but so far D&D had a fair chunk of my attention, and it looks like that will probably decrease.


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## mcmillan

For now I suspect my group would rather stay with 5e and I plan to mainly rely on homebrew and 3rd party stuff I have or can continue to get depending on how the OGL situation goes. I

Depending on how things shake out and what OGL-based things are able to stick around I think I'm looking at the following options for future games
For D&D like: AGE, 13th Age, Pathfinder, Forbidden Lands, Symborum
For other genres: Coriolis, Unknown Armies, Shadowrun, Star Trek


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## RoughCoronet0

No, I don’t plan on jumping ship.


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## HaroldTheHobbit

We have already switched to Savage Pathfinder for fantasy.


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## Lanefan

Vaalingrade said:


> Free from the delusions I once had that 5.5e was going to be a return to form after 5e core, I shall continue on with my own system, hopefully finishing the thing for publishing while everyone else is still scrambling to realign.



Though I suspect our systems are as different as night and day, I too will continue on with my own.  Not sure it'll ever be published, that's not the intent of it, but the player-side stuff* is sitting there on our (non-google-able) website if anyone ever wants to use it or mine it for ideas.

* - if anyone wants the DM-side material I'm happy to email it.


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## Shiroiken

If I bailed, it would probably be to L5R's original d10 system. Given that none of the editions are perfect, I'd probably see if I could scrounge up the rules for 7th Sea, since it used the same core system, then use all this information to create my own version of Rokugan.

More than likely, I'd probably just continue to pay 5E. It's the best edition of D&D so far, and even if WotC goes insane, I still own my books.


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## BrokenTwin

I haven't bought D&D 5e books in years, but I was considered picking up the new edition books when they came out, but that's no longer happening. Probably stick to Savage Worlds Pathfinder and Shadow of the Demon Lord for my fantasy RPG fix.


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## John Dallman

I'll carry on with the systems I'm playing and running, which are AD&D1e and GURPS 4e. I wasn't planning on buying into the new edition; for example, I have a D&D 5e PHB I've never felt sufficiently motivated to read.


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## Andrew Anderson

I like ICRPG and Fate, but I am hoping Level up and Pathfinder survive so I can support them.


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## thullgrim

My first love of gaming is the 3.5/PF1 and I have everything I need to continue to play that game for as long as I want to.
I'm pretty firmly embedded in the Savage Worlds ecosystem and like it well enough for short run campaigns and pulp games.
2023 though, is the year I finally bring GURPS to the table for extended play to see if I can stop shuttling between system constantly.

Should all that fail I have pretty complete 4e collection, all of WHFRP4e as well as Symbaroum, Coriolis, Earthdawn 4e, Genesys/FFG Star Wars, Zweihander, and Numenera, Bladed in the Dark, ICRPG, and others.  I'm set.  I haven't been a WOTC customer consistently since the early release of 5e.  I've bought a couple of the other books but for reference and use in other systems and have since moved them on to someone else.

I love what the OGL did for gaming and have supported many of the larger, and some of the smaller publishers over the years.  I hate what's happening to the community right now.  But I, and probably most of us who post here, have enough games on our shelves we could not give WotC another dime for the rest of our lives and not run out of gaming.  VTT platform issues though are concerning to me, so I've started tentatively exploring Owlbear as a system neutral place to play.


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## Deset Gled

I don't really plan on jumping ship right away. We've got until 2024 to see how this plays out.

But I have been thinking about Call of Cthluhu for awhile now. This would be a good excuse to try it out. No need to wait to see what WotC does to start exploring that system.

I wish I knew of a way to do Dread on a VTT. I'd love to try that out, but all my RPG groups are web based right now.


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## trostol

my group still plays 3e so it shouldn't be a huge factor..though we did recently change GMs and he is running Starfinder so that..might cause an issue down the line


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## Greg K

My plan before getting COVID was to  run 5e for friends.  Now, if and when I stop brain fogging,  my plans for fantasy include Savage Worlds, Fantasy Age,  Barbarians of Lemuria/ Legend of Steel,and, maybe, Fantasy Craft,  Tiny Dungeon, BASH! Fantasy. All depends on the players and what I am looking for.


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## Faolyn

My group is not so much jumping ship as finishing up our current games and _then _switching to other systems. We're looking very heavily at SWADE, although several of us are also interested in Star Trek Adventures, and I've got my eye on Spire as well.

I'm also finally going through the ten zillion indie games I got from various itchio charity bundles.


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## Haplo781

Deset Gled said:


> I don't really plan on jumping ship right away. We've got until 2024 to see how this plays out.
> 
> But I have been thinking about Call of Cthluhu for awhile now. This would be a good excuse to try it out. No need to wait to see what WotC does to start exploring that system.
> 
> I wish I knew of a way to do Dread on a VTT. I'd love to try that out, but all my RPG groups are web based right now.



Simple, you just need a VR setup with haptics.


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## Hex08

I may not be the type of person this thread is targeted at, I jumped ship years ago. I had no desire to play 4E and went to Pathfinder. I got burned out on it a little while before Pathfinder 2E was announced and now primarily run Savage Worlds with a little bit Castles & Crusades and Call of Cthluhu thrown in. I still play Pathfinder 1E, I turned over the DM duties to one of my players and we rotate campaigns.

If I were a D&D 5E player I'm sure Savage Worlds would be what I would jump ship for and probably check out some Forged in the Dark games.


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## Mallus

I‘m not jumping ship, per se. But my group did discuss playing a mini-campaign while I work out Part Two of our current 5e epic.

We were thinking of using PbtA (Spirit of ‘77) to run ”Rollercops”, where every PC belongs to an ill-fated trial squad of roller-skating police in Venice Beach.

Should anything happen, in the Mafia sense, to Roll20s 5e integration over the next year or two, then we’ll revisit switching away from WotC.


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## DND_Reborn

Voted Other.

I can see myself playing D&D 5E for another year or so, but then I will either switch to AD&D (modified), have finished my own game and play that, or just work on my own game.


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## overgeeked

Mallus said:


> We were thinking of using PbtA (Spirit of ‘77) to run ”Rollercops”, where every PC belongs to an ill-fated trial squad of roller-skating police in Venice Beach.



Spirit of 77 is fantastic. One of my favorite PbtA games.


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## Azzy

Why jump ship? I have the game I like—I'll just play with existing material that I have. That said, I won't spend another penny on anything from WotC/Hasbro except on the off chance that they cancel their war on the OGL.


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## Xamnam

The two 5e games I have going on are likely to continue that way for the foreseeable future, due to both fondness for characters/builds, and the difficulty I'd face in convincing some players to learn a new system. My third group is already constantly rotating systems, so we left 5e a while ago but nor are we looking for any sort of flagship replacement to commit to.


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## Bedrockgames

I wasn't that on the ship anymore anyways, as I mostly play other games or 2E (for which I have all the books I need), but zero interest in WOTC at this point. I bought one book from them this year (Ravenloft). That will be my last if they go forward with this (and even if they don't, I don't have much desire to give them my money anymore after reading the leaked license agreement).


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## Bedrockgames

overgeeked said:


> For D&D-like games it will be older editions of D&D and OSR games for me.




I will be playing 2E and occasionally like to play OSR games. But the question on OSR now is whether these will be able to be made anymore in the future after the license change. I'm seeing a lot of designers from that sector who appear quite worried about the full implications of the new license.


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## Zardnaar

Bedrockgames said:


> I will be playing 2E and occasionally like to play OSR games. But the question on OSR now is whether these will be able to be made anymore in the future after the license change. I'm seeing a lot of designers from that sector who appear quite worried about the full implications of the new license.




 Yup even something like the ability score system is potentially iffy Sans OGL.


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## SkidAce

el-remmen said:


> I was never on a ship to begin with. To my mind "D&D" and "what WotC (or any other publisher) might print" are not synonymous. I'll keep playing D&D, whether it is 5E, some amalgam of previous editions, or some wholly homebrewed thing for me and my friends. I just probably won't be buying any new WotC while this regime/policy remains in effect.



This is the Way.


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## jdrakeh

As a small press publisher, I plan on moving to CC-BY for all of my products that don't already use it. As a player/runner of games, I plan to move to Palladium Fantasy 1e (recently republished) as my D&D alternative or, if I feel like a narrative game, Dungeon World. I'll probably also spend some time with Barbarians of Lemuria.


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## Umbran

I haven't been a "one ruleset over all" kind of guy since the FASERIP Marvel Super Heroes was published. I haven't run two successive campaigns in the same ruleset in decades.  So, OGL or not, D&D isn't likely to be the next game I run.

So, I feel very little urgency on this - I can wait to see what the licenses _actually_ look like.  I can wait until 2024, when OneD&D is supposed to be published, and when WotC might start taking royalties.

There's no rush.


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## AdmundfortGeographer

I’ve been itching to do Worlds Without Number. I had already shared the free download version with all my players letting them get prepared. It’s D&D-imitative in an enough of mechanical ways to get running. Compatible with B/X adventures.

Can even borrow the psionic classes from Stars Without Number to get Dark Sun-like story going.


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## hedgeknight

jdrakeh said:


> As a small press publisher, I plan on moving to CC-BY for all of my products that don't already use it. As a player/runner of games, I plan to move to Palladium Fantasy 1e (recently republished) as my D&D alternative or, if I feel like a narrative game, Dungeon World. I'll probably also spend some time with Barbarians of Lemuria.



I'm sorry, what is CC-BY?
Thanks.


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## AdmundfortGeographer

hedgeknight said:


> I'm sorry, what is CC-BY?
> Thanks.











						About CC Licenses - Creative Commons
					

Creative Commons licenses give everyone from individual creators to large institutions a standardized way to grant the public permission to use their creative work under copyright law. From the reuser’s perspective, the presence of a Creative Commons license on a copyrighted work answers the...




					creativecommons.org


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## jdrakeh

I specifically use *CC BY-SA*.


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## FormerLurker

Honestly, even without the OGL fiasco I was planning a D&D break, and will likely switch to the FFG/ Edge Star Wars game for a while.


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## delericho

Honestly, I'm probably done.

However, in the immediate term if I do continue gaming, my D&D-like game of choice would be "Level Up" - I already have the books, it's basically a better version of 5e anyway, so I'll go with that. And obnoxiously correct anyone who refers to it as "D&D".

And then I'll keep my eye open for another game to move to in a few years. Though I'd probably make a pit stop in something sci-fi or horror first, before looking for a D&D replacement - that has tended to be my pattern when D&D starts to get tired.


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## Paul Farquhar

Other: Traveller. It's my habit to switch RPG systems periodically, I quickly get bored of playing the same game. 5e, lasting something over 5 years, has actually done pretty well in that respect.

But genre is the big killer for me: I am heartily sick of Fantasyland. So I'm up for any colour so long as it's not fantasy.


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## Paul Farquhar

Zardnaar said:


> Yup even something like the ability score system is potentially iffy Sans OGL.



So, about ten million computer games? Frankly, I find this hysteria hysterical. WotC would find itself mired in a million years of lawsuits (including against big boys like Electronic Arts) if they tried to shut down everything vaguely D&Dish.

There is a big difference between theoretically possible, and practically possible. It's like time travel. It might be theoretically possible, but good luck building that time machine.


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## ctorus

Nah I'll just carry on playing 4e. With the VTTs we have these days, it's just getting even better.

I looked at PF2, but the monsters look like a massive pain to run compared to 4e. All those spells to look up! But if I absolutely had to switch systems for fantasy, I suppose I'd give it strong consideration, along with:

Fantasy Age
Some form of Rolemaster/Against the Darkmaster/MERP/HARP
Dragonbane
Savage Worlds


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## Dioltach

So nobody's switching to Star Frontiers: New Genesys then?


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## Zardnaar

Paul Farquhar said:


> So, about ten million computer games? Frankly, I find this hysteria hysterical. WotC would find itself mired in a million years of lawsuits (including against big boys like Electronic Arts) if they tried to shut down everything vaguely D&Dish.
> 
> There is a big difference between theoretically possible, and practically possible. It's like time travel. It might be theoretically possible, but good luck building that time machine.




 Those games have separate licenses with WotC generally. 

 Games based off the OGL could be in trouble eg Pathfinders Kingmaker. 

 They don't need to win either to deplatorm you if other companies comply eg Kickstarter, one bookshelf etc.


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## Ondath

I was already considering switching to Level Up A5E, and provided they can continue to exist in the coming days, I'll probably stick to that. 

If not, I'll probably switch to whichever system looks the most like 5E and stick to that. Thing is, I like 5E, it's the management that I have a problem with. If OGL v1.1 goes live as leaked, I won't give them a single dime or ever speak positively of them, but I like the foundation on which 5e was built. Whichever system would help me keep that would get my vote.


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## Zardnaar

Ondath said:


> I was already considering switching to Level Up A5E, and provided they can continue to exist in the coming days, I'll probably stick to that.
> 
> If not, I'll probably switch to whichever system looks the most like 5E and stick to that. Thing is, I like 5E, it's the management that I have a problem with. If OGL v1.1 goes live as leaked, I won't give them a single dime or ever speak positively of them, but I like the foundation on which 5e was built. Whichever system would help me keep that would get my vote.




 If OGL goes away and they can make it stick you won't have a supported 5E like game.


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## Ondath

Zardnaar said:


> If OGL goes away and they can make it stick you won't have a supported 5E like game.



I'm sure a similar enough clone with mechanics that feel the same (without using D&D product identity) can be made.


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## Baldurs_Underdark

I'm just happy rolling my d20s and playing D&D, using paper books that I bought a while ago, at a table with friends and a fridge full of beer. We always homebrew our stories and will probably not buy any new books. Wasn't going to do that anyway, and the OGL stuff does not change it.

And I regret that some content-creators cannot make money anymore because of the OGL, but I was never their customer anyway, so the current storm does not change our course.


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## Paul Farquhar

Zardnaar said:


> Those games have separate licenses with WotC generally.



No, they don't. There are lots and lots of unlicensed CRPGs that have D&D style attributes: Dragon Age: Origins (EA), Fallout's SPECIAL system, World of Warcraft, Warhammer 40K (with a movie and TV deal in the works) and lots and lots of lots produced by smaller companies. Go on Steam and do a search for RPGs.


Zardnaar said:


> Games based off the OGL could be in trouble eg Pathfinders Kingmaker.



They have plenty of money to fight Hasbro, given that the video game adaptations would also be effected.


Zardnaar said:


> They don't need to win either to deplatorm you if other companies comply eg Kickstarter, one bookshelf etc.



WotC can't afford to _loose_. The reason they introduced the OGL in the first place was because there was uncertainty about what was and was not WotC's intellectual property. And they wanted to avoid having to test it in court. Not only would that have been expensive, the chances are they would win on some points and loose on others. But either way, it's outside their control. The OGL was a way to try and gain control, but it only worked so long as people were willing to abide by it.

But WotC's problem now is that one of the big companies, like EA, Microsoft or Apple could beat them to the punch with a popular D&D-clone VTT or MMO. I'm afraid Solasta has proved that is possible and legal under the current OGL, and that is probably what has the lawyers spooked. It didn't matter when D&D was a minor thing, but with it's increasing popularity, there is a very real threat that a bigger fish than WotC might use the OGL to try and steel D&D out from under their nose. It's unfortunate that WotC's attempts to defend itself could lead to a return to the Wild West conditions of the 70s and 80s.


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## Zardnaar

Ondath said:


> I'm sure a similar enough clone with mechanics that feel the same (without using D&D product identity) can be made.




 Probably not a clone no. 

 Theoretically you could clone 4E hell people wanted to do it. 

 Note no clone. 

 Not saying WotC would win but it's theoretically possible. 

 I suspect they expected companies to roll over idk how many have bent the knee (if any).


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## Zardnaar

Paul Farquhar said:


> No, they don't. There are lots and lots of unlicensed CRPGs that have D&D style attributes: Dragon Age: Origins (EA), Fallout's SPECIAL system, World of Warcraft, Warhammer 40K (with a movie and TV deal in the works) and lots and lots of lots produced by smaller companies. Go on Steam and do a search for RPGs.
> 
> They have plenty of money to fight Hasbro, given that the video game adaptations would also be effected.
> 
> WotC can't afford to _loose_. The reason they introduced the OGL in the first place was because there was uncertainty about what was and was not WotC's intellectual property. And they wanted to avoid having to test it in court. Not only would that have been expensive, the chances are they would win on some points and loose on others. But either way, it's outside their control. The OGL was a way to try and gain control, but it only worked so long as people were willing to abide by it.
> 
> But WotC's problem now is that one of the big companies, like EA, Microsoft or Apple could beat them to the punch with a popular D&D-clone VTT or MMO. I'm afraid Solasta has proved that is possible and legal under the current OGL, and that is probably what has the lawyers spooked. It didn't matter when D&D was a minor thing, but with it's increasing popularity, there is a very real threat that a bigger fish than WotC might use the OGL to try and steel D&D out from under their nose. It's unfortunate that WotC's attempts to defend itself could lead to a return to the Wild West conditions of the 70s and 80s.




 I've played a few of them. Their systems are different enough to hold up in court. 

 PF2 and Level Up ability score system are lifted directly from 3.0. No OGL that's potentially WotC intellectual property. 

  If WotC gets nasty you're looking at court battles over every book.

 You could probably rewrite your books but if WotC wins (note IF) anything in any of their books is concievably off limits.


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## ctorus

Zardnaar said:


> Probably not a clone no.
> 
> Theoretically you could clone 4E hell people wanted to do it.
> 
> Note no clone.



It exists and it's great: Orcus


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## Zardnaar

ctorus said:


> It exists and it's great: Orcus




 So it's a beta and doesn't actually exist as a product yet?


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## Paul Farquhar

Zardnaar said:


> I've played a few of them. Their systems are different enough to hold up in court.



Probably, but the problem is no one knows until it's actually in front of a judge, when it's a case of make a Persuasion check: roll a D20.


Zardnaar said:


> PF2 and Level Up ability score system are lifted directly from 3.0. No OGL that's potentially WotC intellectual property.



Potentially it is, potentially it isn't.


Zardnaar said:


> If WotC gets nasty you're looking at court battles over every book.



Which, given the number of books, would bankrupt WotC. Mutually Assured Destruction, is not a winning strategy.


Zardnaar said:


> You could probably rewrite your books but if WotC wins (note IF) anything in any of their books is concievably off limits.



Small players can, but there are plenty of big companies who would be effected who would find it cheaper to say "see you in court". The trouble with bluffing is that if you are called you are screwed.


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## Ondath

Zardnaar said:


> Probably not a clone no.
> 
> Theoretically you could clone 4E hell people wanted to do it.
> 
> Note no clone.
> 
> Not saying WotC would win but it's theoretically possible.
> 
> I suspect they expected companies to roll over idk how many have bent the knee (if any).



I mean, there's a 4e retroclone in these very forums: D&D 4E - Introducing Orcus -- a 4E retroclone

Granted, it exists under OGL v1.0a and couldn't be made as is if that gets revoked, but the point is that some people made a 4e retroclone even if that edition is under the GSL. 

Also, several OSR people have already started making non-copyright infringing terminology that replaces things like saving throws, levels, ability scores, even the XdY dice terminology. If push comes to shove, I think a sufficiently similar clone of 5e could be made in a similar way, and I'd switch to that.


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## Zardnaar

Paul Farquhar said:


> Probably, but the problem is no one knows until it's actually in front of a judge, when it's a case of make a Persuasion check: roll a D20.
> 
> Potentially it is, potentially it isn't.
> 
> Which, given the number of books, would bankrupt WotC. Mutually Assured Destruction, is not a winning strategy.
> 
> Small players can, but there are plenty of big companies who would be effected who would find it cheaper to say "see you in court". The trouble with bluffing is that if you are called you are screwed.




 They might not be bluffing though and they only need to win once. 

 I'm not doom and glooming it I have no idea either way . 

 Ultimately our opinions here don't matter even the lawyers. What matters is if WotC pulls the trigger and can they make it stick.


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## Ondath

Zardnaar said:


> So it's a beta and doesn't actually exist as a product yet?



The fact that it's a beta doesn't really change the fact that it was made under the OGL with seemingly no resistance.


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## Zardnaar

Ondath said:


> The fact that it's a beta doesn't really change the fact that it was made under the OGL with seemingly no resistance.




  No idea maybe no one's noticed? It's not really a product at this point and if it's slipped under the radar for whatever reason.....


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## ctorus

Zardnaar said:


> So it's a beta and doesn't actually exist as a product yet?



Yes that's correct - indeed I don't think there's any intention to make it into a 'product'. 
HTH.


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## Zardnaar

ctorus said:


> Yes that's correct - indeed I don't think there's any intention to make it into a 'product'.
> HTH.




 So it's functionally a fan site.


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## Paul Farquhar

Zardnaar said:


> They might not be bluffing though and they only need to win once.



They are bluffing, and they only have to loose once. Whereas they have to win over every single game mechanic. And every roll of the dice is money down the toilet.


Zardnaar said:


> I'm not doom and glooming it I have no idea either way .



Sounds like it to me. And frankly, the situation is bad for WotC. I'm confident any judge is going to laugh any retroactive rule changes out of court, which leaves those big companies free to wheel in their D&D-clones under the terms of earlier OGLs.


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## Delazar

"Jumping ship" is a big statement, since I guess I'll always play DnD is some shape or form. But recently I'm very intrigued by Soulbound. The rules look very simple, and the lore and the art of the books is just gorgeous. That's something I miss from WotC (and DnD) lately. Everything is so vanilla with DnD lore and art, while Soulbound is really firing up my imagination.


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## fjw70

I am pretty happy with 5e and I am sure I will continue to play that. I have what I need to play it for perpetuity.

I would also like to play more other games in the future, such as The One Ring, more FFG Star Wars, the Song of Ice and Fire RPG, etc.  

No shortage of options.


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## ctorus

Zardnaar said:


> So it's functionally a fan site.



Strictly speaking a Github repository, but yes one created by a fan of 4e as a place to successfully develop and host the 4e clone you were wondering about.


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## Shardstone

Zardnaar said:


> So it's a beta and doesn't actually exist as a product yet?



Watching you go around threads to stomp on non dnd games is insane.


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## reelo

On my to-play list:

Non D&D adjacent:
Mythras (Mythic Britain/Logres, or Vikings of Legend)
The One Ring 2E
Alien RPG

D&D adjacent:
(Advanced) OSE (using 99% finished Dolmenwood material from Patreon)
Hyperborea 2E
Barbarians of the Ruined Earth


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## DEFCON 1

I have absolutely no desire or need to make decisions on anything right now... considering the fact that there's still plenty of time for WotC/Hasbro executives to make big decisions and changes which result in everything working out for everyone.  And thus the thousands of people who had previously exclaimed "I'm done!" (but who actually still really want to play D&D)... having to backtrack their statements if they find the new situation acceptable.

So why bother going through the effort of "choosing now" when there's nothing to gain?


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## Paul Farquhar

DEFCON 1 said:


> I have absolutely no desire or need to make decisions on anything right now... considering the fact that there's still plenty of time for WotC/Hasbro executives to make big decisions and changes which result in everything working out for everyone.  And thus the thousands of people who had previously exclaimed "I'm done!" (but who actually still really want to play D&D)... having to backtrack their statements if they find the new situation acceptable.
> 
> So why bother going through the effort of "choosing now" when there's nothing to gain?



Indeed, I'm not worried about D&D because I don't _care _that much about D&D. And WotC are in a pickle no matter what they do. Price of success. But edition change is a convenient time to go do something different. If I'm buying new rules anyway it might as well be for something else.


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## Hexmage-EN

I'm honestly kind of curious why people would even be talking about jumping ship at all. If anything the OGL 1.0 is absurdly generous to the point that it allowed D&D's closest rival, Pathfinder, to come into existence basically by copy-pasting 3.5 and adding some house rules.


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## Shatargat

This kind of issues were foreseeable. Official content of WOTC was getting worse and worse with every new sourcebook, we already know about their behaviour to freelancers, and they're faking "supporting minority groups" for a couple of years as a marketing trend. I wasn't like it much already, but in 2022 I stopped running D&D, sold my books, handled some bills, got a new webcam and lighting for my online sessions. And lastly, I started to convert my setting I created when PHB was still on pre-order state into a Mörk Borg setting. I actually feel better without D&D in my life. I witnessed that there are lots of people using D&D as a gatekeeping material, and now it's about to change.

I'm already using Mörk Borg and Symbaroum, and planning to use Dungeon World for fantasy means. Waiting for Drakar och Demoner in the meantime.

If you really like D&D, maybe you can continue your game while not paying further to D&D products and not using VTTs for D&D means, could be an option. Because, when you open a D&D room on Roll20, it provides them a positive data. When you create a DNDB campaign, it provides them a positive data. Even if you use your own content, when you do that, they think they're dominating everyone and they can bend people to their will.


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## Paul Farquhar

Hexmage-EN said:


> I'm honestly kind of curious why people would even be talking about jumping ship at all. If anything the OGL 1.0 is absurdly generous to the point that it allowed D&D'Souza closest rival, Pathfinder, to come into existence basically by copy-pasting 3.5 and adding some house rules.



Indeed. and it's the fear that that can happen again, but with much stronger marketing than Paizo could ever muster, that is motivating a (doomed) desire to move the goalposts.


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## eyeheartawk

It depends on the type of game I'm looking for, so I voted other. 

For lengthy fantasy campaigns: OSE, C&C

For sword and sorcery inspired play: Hyperborea

For shorter dark campaigns: Shadow of the Demon Lord

For short campaigns where you ride a giant bee through outer space while ripping a space bong: DCC


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## Velderan

Not jumping ship but definitely closely monitoring what's going on with OGL to decide if WotC sees any more of my money.

Currently finishing up a Descent Into Avernus campaign as a player and after that we're switching over to a Dragonlance DL1-14 5e conversion I'm DMing. Plan was to run encounters and character sheets in DDB using Roll20 for VTT but character sheets can be migrated to Roll20 and I can go back to a spreadsheet template I was using before DDB released their encounter builder tool. It's extra work but not the end of the world.

That will likely take us through 2023 and then we were planning to reassess what people wanted to do anyhow since 1D&D would be closer to launch. I wanted to pitch trying something different by then anyhow so seems like a good time to switch systems.


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## drl2

My 3-ish-year 5e campaign wrapped up in early December and I was leaning toward a switch to PF2e anyway for the next one (based in part on the strength of its Foundry VTT system and the level of support offered by Paizo for it).

But in the meantime I'm doing a lot of dabbling - I want to run some one- or two-session adventures in some other games (Traveller, EZD6, Coyote and Crow, Mighty Protectors)


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## OrganGrinder

Dragonbane.


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## overgeeked

For sci-fi gaming…


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## eyeheartawk

overgeeked said:


> For sci-fi gaming…



There is only one choice for sci-fi gaming. 

Starships and Spacemen 2E.

It has a _fully _illustrated d100 alien forehead generator.

What more do you need?


----------



## Staffan

I'll add that for those looking for a experience that has a lot of D&D-like elements (e.g. classes, levels, magic with distinct spells, partially traditional fantasy races, increasing hit points) but a wholly different system, Earthdawn is probably worth a look.


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## Velderan

Hexmage-EN said:


> I'm honestly kind of curious why people would even be talking about jumping ship at all. If anything the OGL 1.0 is absurdly generous to the point that it allowed D&D's closest rival, Pathfinder, to come into existence basically by copy-pasting 3.5 and adding some house rules.



I'd honestly view any proposed changes differently if they were clearly designed to prevent a Pathfinder scenario, but there are ways they could have approached it differently to prevent a direct competitor using their ruleset to compete that wouldn't potentially impact a successful Kickstarter that won't take any money from WotC because the product simply doesn't compete with anything WotC is offering.


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## Nilbog

So the group I'm a player in is a 5e campaign, I highly suspect that we will continue playing that, however the DM is tied into the DDB / ROLL20 estate so if anything changes regarding accessibility to either of those we may switch. 

The group I'm currently DM'ing for is PF2E and foundry. I'm very happy with both the system and the setup, so hopefully both will remain unchanged (having free online access to nethys is a must as it saves me so much prep time) should the WoTC overlords somehow blast either or both then I'd have to evaluate how easy it would be to continue with the stuff that I have locally, if there is no way it's possible to continue then I'd probably look towards either soulbound or SotWW


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## MockingBird

I'm gonna stick with 5e unless this gets sorted.


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## iserith

DEFCON 1 said:


> I have absolutely no desire or need to make decisions on anything right now... considering the fact that there's still plenty of time for WotC/Hasbro executives to make big decisions and changes which result in everything working out for everyone.  And thus the thousands of people who had previously exclaimed "I'm done!" (but who actually still really want to play D&D)... having to backtrack their statements if they find the new situation acceptable.
> 
> So why bother going through the effort of "choosing now" when there's nothing to gain?



Completely agree. Wait, decide later.


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## Matchstick

Savage Worlds for sure.  I've always liked it better anyway, and it's a system essentially made to have content created for it.


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## Ulfgeir

My group plays all kinds of different rpgs. Last time we did D&D was before the pandemic hit.

At the moment, we are playing GURPS, and a homebrewed PbtA-game. I will start a campaign in The Troubleshooters, which is based on BRP. Otherwise FATE has been popular. We will later on restart a game in Scion 2e (which uses the Storypath system).


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## Desdichado

Homebrew.


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## lemur

Dragonbane and Mythras for me


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## Micah Sweet

I'm sticking with Level Up, come hell or high water.  I'll happily make my own content when needed.  If I were to move on, something like the ...Without Number games certainly appeals.


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## Hex08

DEFCON 1 said:


> I have absolutely no desire or need to make decisions on anything right now... considering the fact that there's still plenty of time for WotC/Hasbro executives to make big decisions and changes which result in everything working out for everyone.  And thus the thousands of people who had previously exclaimed "I'm done!" (but who actually still really want to play D&D)... having to backtrack their statements if they find the new situation acceptable.
> 
> So why bother going through the effort of "choosing now" when there's nothing to gain?



Obviously, everyone is free to make their own decisions but if WotC backtracks that doesn't mean that everyone who screamed "I'm done!" has to backtrack. Some people might decide that even though WotC changed their mind that they don't want to support a company who is obviously willing to consider these kinds of changes.

I haven't played D&D in over a decade, and it wasn't because I didn't want to play D&D anymore. I still wanted to play D&D but I just moved to Pathfinder and then Castles and Crusades. Whether or not the OGL changes the majority of people are likely going to still play D&D over other games for some time to come.


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## hedgeknight

Baldurs_Underdark said:


> I'm just happy rolling my d20s and playing D&D, using paper books that I bought a while ago, at a table with friends and a fridge full of beer. We always homebrew our stories and will probably not buy any new books. Wasn't going to do that anyway, and the OGL stuff does not change it.
> 
> And I regret that some content-creators cannot make money anymore because of the OGL, but I was never their customer anyway, so the current storm does not change our course.



^^This! I wish I lived close to you and could game at your table...and help you unload the fridge


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## Fenris-77

Its already the case that I only play 5E with my kids and that isn't going to change other than my unwillingness to buy any more books. Everything I actually run and choose to play in is non-D&D (lots of OSR though).


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## DEFCON 1

Hex08 said:


> Obviously, everyone is free to make their own decisions but if WotC backtracks that doesn't mean that everyone who screamed "I'm done!" has to backtrack. Some people might decide that even though WotC changed their mind that they don't want to support a company who is obviously willing to consider these kinds of changes.
> 
> I haven't played D&D in over a decade, and it wasn't because I didn't want to play D&D anymore. I still wanted to play D&D but I just moved to Pathfinder and then Castles and Crusades. Whether or not the OGL changes the majority of people are likely going to still play D&D over other games for some time to come.



Sure.  Some people might.  But just like we had people scream "I'm done!" 14 years ago when they felt WotC insulted them with the "skip past the boring town guard to get to the fun fight beyond him" bit at the beginnings of 4E's advertising only for them to return to D&D with 5E later on... people can and will say anything they want because they know they are not beholden to any of it.  They can just decide at some later point "Well, that was then, this is now" and do whatever they please.

I just figure it's easier to save my time and energy by not saying anything now and thus not needing to retract it later on.


----------

