# [EPIC] Out of Character II (No more slots!)



## Creamsteak (Jan 28, 2003)

I started the thread, but I figured I'd tag on a little, "your invited if you want to play" to this thread. You'll just be a little bit behind the other characters since you would need to create yours. Everyone else is at the point where they can already decide their course of action concerning the current events.


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## Daiymo (Jan 28, 2003)

*Upon further review...*

EDIT: I originally wanted to play. But common sense has snapped me back. I'm pushing too many games. I'm out, although I'm dying to try  the Epic stuff.


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## Tokiwong (Jan 28, 2003)

I as well, what is the starting level and all that?


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## Sulli (Jan 28, 2003)

If there is still spots open ill play. just need to know the character creation stuff.


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## Victim (Jan 28, 2003)

I am interested.  The character creation info is partly on page 2 here, and partly in an old (>30 day) thread in rogue's gallery.

Where are we getting the ECLs from?


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## Creamsteak (Jan 28, 2003)

I'm using These.

They work for me. I will move some of the info from the OOC thread into the Rogues Gallery so you can have the complete info available, after my educational time has been spent today.


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## Lichtenhart (Jan 28, 2003)

CS, I was losing interest in this, but knowing it's set in the same setting of LHHS makes it much more interesting. Are the races from LHHS available?


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 28, 2003)

Yeah any cool Trolls or something? Btw in the case of dragons (have to ask) are we doing the ECL thingy or can we take a 20 HD dragon...?


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## GWolf (Jan 28, 2003)

Any slots for me??? Whats the character creation rules and stuff?


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## Victim (Jan 28, 2003)

Umm, there's no point buy total for characters of +3 ECL.  The chart goes from +2 to +4.  

Can a character at level 20 with a high enough ECL adjustment take Epic feats?

How do abilities not designed for use with the Epic book work?  For example, Eldritch Blasting from BoEM 3 is a +7 weapon ability, but is designed for normal play.  Will it be an Epic weapon property, or just an usually large normal one?

While spellcasters can simply avoid selecting barred spells with their slots, what about races or classes with a teleport or resurrection ability?  Do they get some kind of replacement ability?

Should I be asking in the original OOC thread?

Can we use things from other books if we don't use much and get item by item permission?


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## Creamsteak (Jan 28, 2003)

Tell you guys what, I'm going to re-work the mechanics of the game tonight. Shouldn't take TOO teribly long, and once it's done everything will be more clear.


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## Creamsteak (Jan 28, 2003)

Alright, check here. It's gonna need a few more things, but I think I did a better job explaining things this time.


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## Velenne (Jan 29, 2003)

I'd be interested.  I'm afraid I'm a little hazy on this "CLVL + ELVL - PLVL = Total Equivelent Character Level (ECL)" thing.  

If I were, for instance, to play a human, would I get 60 points from which to buy my ability scores?  That seems rather incredible!


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## Creamsteak (Jan 29, 2003)

Velenne said:
			
		

> *I'd be interested.  I'm afraid I'm a little hazy on this "CLVL + ELVL - PLVL = Total Equivelent Character Level (ECL)" thing.
> 
> If I were, for instance, to play a human, would I get 60 points from which to buy my ability scores?  That seems rather incredible! *



Yep, and it's intentional. If you wanted to play a level 20 Breton Cleric, for instance, there would be two ways you can go about it. As it's ECL+1, you can take a 48 point buy, and start at level 20 (and ECL 20), or you can sacrifice a single level (making you level 19) and maintain the 60 point buy. 

Basically, I tried to make a mechanic that 'forces' your characters feats/ability scores/ECL all to remain at 20 (so there are no epic feats until you gain your first level), while allowing you to choose different races and classes in such a way that you can do as you please. It 'seems' complicated, but you can ignore the CLVL+ELVL-PLVL=ECL. I'm just trying it out, and hopefully it works better than my old HD=ECL for determining feats and ability score bonuses.

Basically, make any character you want this way. You could play an +6 ECL race with 20 character levels if you want, but since you only have 12 points for point buy, I subtract 6 levels for your equivelent character level (bringing it down to 20 again).


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## Sulli (Jan 29, 2003)

would i be able to use the poket gurimour arcane or spell and spellcraft


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## Victim (Jan 29, 2003)

Nm


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## Keia (Jan 29, 2003)

creamsteak,

As much as I want to be in this, I think I'm gonna have to drop out.  I still can't come to grips with the character I was working on and frankly, I've joined too many games since then to keep up with an epic level character.

Apologies,
Keia


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## Creamsteak (Jan 29, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *Is it acceptable to shuffle item properties around?  For example, to have Vest with an ability that normally goes with an amulet?  I think I've only gone up the item creation difficulty ladder - turning an amulet into a ring - or kept the item as a Wonderous item - as above - so I'm not trying to get everything with Craft Wonderous.  Actually, my character can't create items anyway, but I wouldn't want to set a bad precedent.
> *



Yes, that's suitable. Have your gauntlets of charisma and what have you. The only thing is, Rings must remain rings. You can take the cloak of charisma type bonus and apply it to a ring, but you can't take a ring of regeneration and apply it's bonus to a girdle.

Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 (Sword and fist) 150k - +5 enhancement bonus to unarmed attacks

*Yes.*

Bracers of Striking (Magic of Faerun): improved unarmed strike, can add special weapon properties as a blunt double weapon - 1310 gp, plus the cost of weapon properties as a double weapon.

*Yes.*

The Arcane Blasting weapon property (BoEM 3) +3d6 force damage per hit, +4 equivalent power.

*No.*

Some awful Iajitsu Focus boosting headband.  This skill is, IMHO, very different from other skills and thus probably should have a different price structure than other skill boosters.

*Let's see... I agree it should be an option. Note my points on Iaijutsu being a restricted skill to all classes but the Monk and Samurai. I'd say, as it's going to cost sufficiently more. First off, since it's a restricted skill, a wizard/sorcerer or whatever kind of crafter is going to need levels in either Samurai or Monk, and a caster level sufficient to create the item. This really makes it next to impossible to find someone with more than a +5 in ranks in the skill, and the cost would be a little inflated. a +5 bonus item will cost the bonus squared * 500, for a -not too horrible- 12500. *


Improved Boots of Speed with more uses per day and with Striding and Spring properties. 

*Do you know how to do this on your own? There's a method (covered primarily on page 242 of the DMG) concerning stacking bonuses of different types. All I know is, this would require you to do the official math and present it to me. For now, it's No, till you show me your work .*

An improved ring of sustenance that eliminates the need for sleep - intelligent items can have this ability.

*Oh no, I wouldn't dare let that in. That's 33% of the fun!*

An item based off Combat Prescience for an insight bonus to attacks.

*insight bonuses are 'odd' bonuses... so I think that means they cost more. You can figure out the cost using the DMG, just give me your math, I'll check it, and then OK it if it's right.* 

Adding skill bonuses or other existing item abilities to other items for 2x cost.

*Yeah, sure, as long as you are following the guidelines presented in the DMG -your good.*

Also, how much Epic type DR will we be facing.  Based on the ELH, I'd almost assume that Penetrate DR is a must have feat for fighting types, because characters of mid-20s level will have significant difficulties scrapping up good enough weapons and while holding on to their old items.

*Now now, I won't be telling any crazy secrets. You do realize that you only start with an ECL of 20, so you can't 'start' with Penetrate DR, but it would be a good choice most likely when you gain your first level.*


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## Creamsteak (Jan 29, 2003)

Sulli said:
			
		

> *would i be able to use the poket gurimour arcane or spell and spellcraft *



 Um... No, although Grimours do exist as a form of magic in the campaign setting, it's long forgotten. I'm not sure about the rest of your sentence.


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## Creamsteak (Jan 29, 2003)

Keia said:
			
		

> *creamsteak,
> 
> As much as I want to be in this, I think I'm gonna have to drop out.  I still can't come to grips with the character I was working on and frankly, I've joined too many games since then to keep up with an epic level character.
> 
> ...



K, always good to post that rather than ignore it.


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## Sulli (Jan 29, 2003)

So the pocket gurmour arcane is a no go. o well i tried.

there is a book called spells and spellcraft. it have more spells in it and also some other feats.

also you said we could join to abbility to one item??. if i can i would like boots of speed/striding and sprining.
boos of speed cost 8,000 (higher costing item)
for joining items together(i think) you take the lower cost item, double its price and add it to the high cost item.

EX:
boots of speed (8,000)
Striding and springing*(2,500)
8,000+(2,500*2)
8,000+5,000=13,000


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## Janos Audron (Jan 29, 2003)

I'm still in.


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 29, 2003)

Cream, what rules are you using for a Forsaker?

Do you cap the fast heal or not at a max a day?

How about the magic destroying part?

Like'd to know


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## Creamsteak (Jan 29, 2003)

> So the pocket gurmour arcane is a no go. o well i tried.
> 
> there is a book called spells and spellcraft. it have more spells in it and also some other feats.
> 
> ...




I'm 'relatively' sure you double the cost of the more expensive item. I don't own spells and spellcraft, so anything you want out of that book is going to need to be ran by me. That is, your going to be required to post the information so I can examine it.



> I'm still in.



Good to know. Ya know, the threads already been started for the game, you can join in anytime.



> Cream, what rules are you using for a Forsaker?
> 
> Do you cap the fast heal or not at a max a day?
> 
> ...




I havn't OK'd the Forsaker, and it doesn't fit anything established in the setting. If I used it, I would use the errated version and I would require the magic item destruction as is, but for this setting I don't think any such individuals exist.

I don't think I'd cap fast healing, as it's a reasonable ability for a high level character to run around with. Oh, and check the new rules established in the Rogues Gallery with the note that all PrCs require my ok. Now, I could ok the Forsaker, but I don't know from what perspective your taking it. So, what theme would there be? I could see a caste of templar dissenting against all magic rather than just necromancy/illussion, but I'm not sure...


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 29, 2003)

Drow Fighter 8/ Forsaker 10

And do you allow a permanent anti magic field..? (have to ask..)

Euhm a Human with Spell resistance... what ECL what that be? (SR 11+ Char level)

or a race with:

+2 con -2 cha SR 11+ class level.


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## Lichtenhart (Jan 29, 2003)

CS, I'm working on a Half-Celestial Monk/Cleric of Elishar/Sacred Fist from DotF. It would be a monk who discover the power of heavens within him and struggles to channel it through his body, striving to achieve the peace within and outside, with a jedi-like code of conduct. Could that work?

I'm quite sure Victim is right about doubling the cost of the less expensive powers. Speaking of which, Victim, I think you designed some really cool items. Can I steal some of them and use in my campaign. Also, are you interested in a common background for our chars?


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## Lichtenhart (Jan 29, 2003)

*I knew I forgot something*

Can you explain what you mean by '+2 skill (ranks = level +3)'?
What is the Redguard's favored class?
Do you like Half-Celestial with or without wings? How does it affect ELVL?


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## Victim (Jan 29, 2003)

Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> *CS, I'm working on a Half-Celestial Monk/Cleric of Elishar/Sacred Fist from DotF. It would be a monk who discover the power of heavens within him and struggles to channel it through his body, striving to achieve the peace within and outside, with a jedi-like code of conduct. Could that work?
> 
> I'm quite sure Victim is right about doubling the cost of the less expensive powers. Speaking of which, Victim, I think you designed some really cool items. Can I steal some of them and use in my campaign. Also, are you interested in a common background for our chars? *




You bum!  I was making a 1/2 Celestial Redguard Monk.  I'm assuming that the Redguard skill thing is like the human skill bonus, but you get 2 and can't switch the points around.  

But you can use my items.  All I did was figure out what item abilities I wanted, and then tried to make a spiffy name.

I have an example for using double cost on the cheap abilities.  Look at Boots of Swiftness from the ELH.  They provide +6 dex, +20 to jump, balance, tumble, and climb, double the wearer's speed, grant evasion, and can haste the wearer for 20 rounds 3 times per day.  The cost is 256k.  

Haste ability (20 x 3 x1800 x 3/5) = 64.8k: the most expensive property.  

Additional double cost abilities:

Striding and Springing - the closest analog for double speed:
6.5k x 2 no space = 13k

+20 to 3 skills is 8000 x 2 no space x 3 skills boosted 
The additional +10 to jump = (8k -2k) x 2 no space
Skill boosting cost = 60
+6 dex costs 36x2 no space for 72k
Evasion, as per the ring of evasion, costs 25k x 2 no space = 50k

Total cost = 259.8k
Base cost = 256k

That's pretty close.  Using your method, one of the +20 to skill abilities would be the base one, saving 8k, and the haste power would cost an additional 65k, for a new cost of 317 000.

Remember that DMG errata changes the cost of Boots of Striding and Springing to 6.5k.  Although, with 800k, the difference isn't that great.


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## Sulli (Jan 29, 2003)

sorry double post


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## Sulli (Jan 29, 2003)

so according to your example we do double the cost for the cheper item to the cost of the more expencive item.??
where does it say the cost for the bootsof striding and sprinign cost are changed to 6.5k??

o and also i don't think i have the book ELH(what ever that stands for.)


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## Victim (Jan 29, 2003)

The DMG errata changes the boots to 6.5k.  You can download it from the wizards website.

The Boots of Swiftness are from the Epic Level Handbook.  I just used it as an example because the values for its abilities are really easy to figure out.  All the powers are from other items, so it's easy to just look at the root item cost and double it.  Also, there is a large difference between the costs of the cheapest power and most expensive formula, so the results from the different formulae will be very different.  In many of the sample items with 2 or more powers, all the abilities are the same so it doesn't matter.


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## Jemal (Jan 29, 2003)

ELH is the Epic Level Handbook.
Yes, the cheaper ability added has its price doubled.  if you want to add a third, double it as well. (Most expensive + 2X second most expensive +2X third most expensive, etc, etc, etc=total cost)

ALso the boots of striding/springing - It's somewhere on the net, there's a bunch of errata.  I never use it, I just work straight outta the books unless the DM specifically says we're using a specific errata.


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## Sulli (Jan 29, 2003)

Boot of Speed/striding and sprining
8,000+(2,500*2)=13,000

so this is the right cost for them???.


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## buzzard (Jan 29, 2003)

I'm curious. How can one have a 10/10 ghost/dark elf (for a total of 20th)? I assume this means the stat buy was used up or something?

buzzard


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## Gurdjieff (Jan 29, 2003)

If I could reserve a slot I'd love to play, but the next couple of days will be little posting for me. So if you could keep a slot open till the weekend/monday, I'm in.


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## Victim (Jan 29, 2003)

buzzard said:
			
		

> *I'm curious. How can one have a 10/10 ghost/dark elf (for a total of 20th)? I assume this means the stat buy was used up or something?
> 
> buzzard *




It looks like the stat buy was used up.  I think he used 12 point buy with the level increases to Wis along with the Drow and Ghost racial mods.

However, the character should still have a Fortitude save.  Undead can still be affected by Fort spells that can hit objects too.  Disintegrate, for example.

My character is posted now.  I still need to do some tweaking.

Shouldn't Janos's pixie have 1 fewer feat?  He's getting 2 normal feats and scribe scroll at first level.  Also, fox's cunning wouldn't stack with the Headband of Intellect.  Is the headband there in case the permanent cunning is dispeled?


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## GWolf (Jan 29, 2003)

I am sorry, but I would like to drop this game. Sorry for any inconvience.


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## Creamsteak (Jan 30, 2003)

*Re: I knew I forgot something*



			
				Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> *Can you explain what you mean by '+2 skill (ranks = level +3)'?
> What is the Redguard's favored class?
> Do you like Half-Celestial with or without wings? How does it affect ELVL? *



 Thanx. Clerical error. It's a human subrace from the LHHS world. It's one of the 'primary PC races' so they are stronger than usual. They tend to have tanned skin, as they are often sailors, monks, fighters, adventurers, and dwell in sunny country. *Redguard*	ECL +0. 1 extra feat. +1 skill (max ranks = level + 3). +2 Climb, +2 Jump, +2 Fortitude, +2 Reflex, +10 Speed.


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## Creamsteak (Jan 30, 2003)

Sulli said:
			
		

> *so according to your example we do double the cost for the cheper item to the cost of the more expencive item.??
> where does it say the cost for the bootsof striding and sprinign cost are changed to 6.5k??
> 
> o and also i don't think i have the book ELH(what ever that stands for.) *



Epic Level Handbook.

And I'm going with the costs for the lower item being doubled then.


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## Creamsteak (Jan 30, 2003)

The Forsaken One
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: The forest of increasing Irony
Posts: 1942
 Drow Fighter 8/ Forsaker 10

And do you allow a permanent anti magic field..? (have to ask..)

Euhm a Human with Spell resistance... what ECL what that be? (SR 11+ Char level)

or a race with:

+2 con -2 cha SR 11+ class level.

*Hrm... well, this isn't extremely fitting in my campaign setting. I'd say it's an ok on the Drow forsaker/fighter concept, but I'm going to rule that that's the only Prestige class available to your character after you take it, and the only 'type' of available gear would be ancient technology (which is artifact level, so it can't be bought) besides your basic mundane equipment. No special metals without my permission of course... some are alright, but gold/mithral/adamantine/platinum are all not permitted to your character. Copper, bronze, iron, steal, obsidian, and Forgemetal (what I'm betting you'll take, it's a setting specific) are OK. Also, just double checking, but you do know the errata on forsaker, right? Some people fight about it when they find out, and I want to make sure that everything's clear right now. However, a permanent anti-magic field is semi-common in this setting, however, they are permanent emplacements crafted by technologists of ancient times.

I don't have any race like that.

Forgemetal can make any wholly metal item (like a sword or armor) into a +5 equivelent item. The price increases 100,000 gold pieces, and the item can never be enchanted with magic. If a piece is melted, it can be reforged into an item of any length, up to huge sized for a weapon or large sized for a caste of Heavy or Medium armor, huge for light armor. This property is invaluable to smiths, however, if sundered by a weapon or smith, the piece breaks permanently. Given the quality of the material, it's unlikely that it can be broken by most, but some pieces do inevitably fall apart. Once broken, a piece disolves permanently.*

Lichtenhart
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Italy, GMT +1:00
Posts: 668
 CS, I'm working on a Half-Celestial Monk/Cleric of Elishar/Sacred Fist from DotF. It would be a monk who discover the power of heavens within him and struggles to channel it through his body, striving to achieve the peace within and outside, with a jedi-like code of conduct. Could that work?

I'm quite sure Victim is right about doubling the cost of the less expensive powers. Speaking of which, Victim, I think you designed some really cool items. Can I steal some of them and use in my campaign. Also, are you interested in a common background for our chars?

*I have Elishar in Dieties and Demigods, I think, so that's good, and it's a neat diety IMO. As for Sacred Fist, what book's that from again? I need to look it over before I finalize the OK. Half-celestials fine at the provided ECL, and wings or not is up to you. I like the character.*

*Note to all:* I'm ussing all the errata on WotC products that I have. That includes DMG prices and the Forsaker Prestige Class sofar.

I'm curious. How can one have a 10/10 ghost/dark elf (for a total of 20th)? I assume this means the stat buy was used up or something?

buzzard

*What? Hrm.. it's probably 'right' just with a point buy debt.*

Venus
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
Posts: 278
 If I could reserve a slot I'd love to play, but the next couple of days will be little posting for me. So if you could keep a slot open till the weekend/monday, I'm in.


__________________
Faith belongs to those who are blessed with her favor. It's the greatest gift a mortal can receive.

*Venus, your acceptable because I 'think' I remember you like role-playing your character as well. I need some of those characters to counter-affect Sollir and Janos being there. I like them, but man, I can't stand trying to figure out their characters .*

It looks like the stat buy was used up. I think he used 12 point buy with the level increases to Wis along with the Drow and Ghost racial mods.

However, the character should still have a Fortitude save. Undead can still be affected by Fort spells that can hit objects too. Disintegrate, for example.

My character is posted now. I still need to do some tweaking.

Shouldn't Janos's pixie have 1 fewer feat? He's getting 2 normal feats and scribe scroll at first level. Also, fox's cunning wouldn't stack with the Headband of Intellect. Is the headband there in case the permanent cunning is dispeled?

*Janos, check with this above. It all seems correct to me, the only one I didn't check was the feat.*

GWolf
Member

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: Long Island
Posts: 489
 I am sorry, but I would like to drop this game. Sorry for any inconvience.


__________________

*Good to know.*


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## Creamsteak (Jan 30, 2003)

OK, also, Jemal and Victim, can you please post your item costs, or is that lost in the void of a calculator?

Dalamar, can you find that list of spells you 'probably' will cast, and attach it to your Rogues Gallery post for me?

Janos, ring of nine lives?

Alright, and I need to check over some formatting. Some formats I'm adjusted to, others I have no fricken clue where to look for things. I'll try and do a bit of that myself and hand it out. Basically, I NEED to know everything. That being, I need to make sure you list all class abilities somewhere, and probably it would be a really lovely thing if you left the page number and book if it's a prestige class ability. Feats are not so much an issue, so long as any that are used during a round get stated. I'm not a rules-master of a DM, I'm really into playing for fun, but I like to know what's going on, and I feel this board 'could' use an epic game.

Oh, and in case you didn't notice, I'm stopping here, definitely. The current 3 characters I'm running (even with Jemal's post, I'm not quite ready to start off a 4th quest), is already showing that I might not be able to handle more than 5 actions at a time, so I may pair off the last few characters to 'save space' in the thread. If someone wants to volunteer to partner with someone, that will help.


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## Victim (Jan 30, 2003)

I think my character is ready to go.  I messed up on some of the Redguard abilites, but that should be fixed.  Mundane equipment has been added.  Languages have been added.

I thought I had costs for all my items.  Just after the item name, I state the price in thousands of gold piece.

Piercing the Veil 93 (True Seeing 75, +15 Sense Motive* 9, +15 Spot* 9) Not an item, but a magical ability. However, wearing a magical goggles or similar eye slot items interferes with ability.

This costs 93 000 gp.  The True Seeing portion costs 75 thousand, and skills cost 9 thousand each.

All my abilities should be listed, with a short explaination for some of them.  I suppose I could post the bonus breakdown for my attacks.

A ring of 9 lives has 9 charges.  It will automatically cast Heal on the character when he falls below zero HP, and a charge can be spent to change a failed save into a successful one.  The default price is 70 thousand.  If you rule that the Heal effect occurs fast enough to prevent death from going below -10, then the item is very underpriced.  

Without extensive information gathering and transit abilities, I figured I that Jaren would use the main entrance.  Therefore, he'd quickly catch up to Rearden.


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## Lichtenhart (Jan 30, 2003)

creamsteak said:
			
		

> *I have Elishar in Dieties and Demigods, I think, so that's good, and it's a neat diety IMO. As for Sacred Fist, what book's that from again? I need to look it over before I finalize the OK. Half-celestials fine at the provided ECL, and wings or not is up to you. I like the character.
> 
> Note to all: I'm ussing all the errata on WotC products that I have. That includes DMG prices and the Forsaker Prestige Class sofar.*



*

I picked Elishar because you said he was in Breton Pantheon in LHHS, and thought that would fit an Half-celestial. Since I'll probably go Redguard, I'll check egyptian Pantheon as well, but I kinda like Elishar and probably stick with it.
Sacred Fist is in Defenders of the Faith. And since it gives a prestige domain, I'd like Mysticism. Anyway I'll check for any Errata and transcribe class abilities when I post my char. I'm glad you like it *


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## Janos Audron (Jan 30, 2003)

2nd feat @ first level: Sollir was right, it was a leftover from my lich days .

Ring of Nine Lives is from MoF, need an OK on it. Basically, when you have less then 0 HP, it casts Heal on you, and it automatically saves vs. Death Effects and Negative Levels. When I'm home, I'll type the correct description.

The Fox Cunning is there for the DCs, the Headband is there for extra spells.


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 30, 2003)

EUhm, where can I find the errata? WotC doesnt have an official one yet...

What's different?


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## buzzard (Jan 30, 2003)

I would be happy to have Rearden pair up with someone. They'd need to meet him inside since he's active already. I'd favor a cleric, but anyone of good (or at least nuetral alignment) would be fine. I didn't realize that we'd be going solo. 

buzzard


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## Lichtenhart (Jan 30, 2003)

I guess I am the nearest thing to a cleric that's actually in the game, and I'm lawful good. I'd still like an answer from Victim about our backgrounds though. we could be brothers, only that he chose to be like our father (a redguard monk) while I chose to be more like our mother (the celestial). Then we could meet Rearden and travel along. If you don't like it Victim, I guess we should at least know each other (mmm now that I think of it we could also be estranged brothers than haven't met for a really long time. Maybe we had a dispute long ago and founded two different dojos.), and I will go with Rearden. My char only wants to stop anyone unworthy from getting the spark, so there shouldn't be any problem.


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## Victim (Jan 30, 2003)

The Forsaken One said:
			
		

> *EUhm, where can I find the errata? WotC doesnt have an official one yet...
> 
> What's different? *




Check the FAQ for masters of the Wild.  The main difference is that level based components for SR don't stack.  For example, a 20th level drow with 10 levels of Forsaker would have 11 SR from being a darf elf, +10 SR from being a Forsaker, and then +20 SR from character level.
------------------------------------------------
I had planned that Jaren was originally a human monk, but gained the 1/2 celestial abilities when he attained Perfect Self.  Apparently, when becoming an outsider, he was able to attain a higher state than most monks.

However, I'm not opposed to having a linked background.  Perhaps our characters are half brothers, with the same mortal parent (duh).  And the reason Jaren transcended to a half celestial is because of his close link to celestials.  I kind of like the rival idea too.


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## GoldenEagle (Jan 30, 2003)

I would love to pair up with somebody if it is possible.

GE


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 30, 2003)

Well a 10th level fighter 10th level forsaker would be:

11 SR base from Drow +10th level fighter +22 from forsaker normally he would gain another +10 from the Forsaker levels but that's nerfed now. Like it should, would be rediculous and it's VERY powerfull as it is now anyway.

SR 44 on level 20 ain't bad, not bad at all 

Btw does it do something for a drow ECL if they didn't have their spelllike abilities?

And Creamsteak, would you think it able that if I whipped up a good history that I could dispose of the Sp's and get something else instead (or nothing I just want to get rid of the Sp's at least as Forsaker, OR that would be a great thing to Quest for, a final goal in life. To rid yourself of those damned spelllikes that prevent a Drow from becomming a real, pure forsaker. A drow that would want to have been a human so that he could have been pure... but now his inherent resistance to spells grants him an edge in the goals he persues... but with it comes the curse of those spells.. if only he could rid himself of those...


[hmm got a bit carried away there but now you get an Idea where I want to go. Have any ideas as a GM?]

[Can anyone link me to the FAQ?]


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## Jemal (Jan 30, 2003)

Sulli and I have been discussing making our characters into brothers, so if he decides to go that way, there'll be one pair. (Fairly complimentary, too...)


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## Leopold (Jan 30, 2003)

Leopold is near done i believe. I will post him in the rogues gallery....


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Jan 30, 2003)

Small Notes:

Janos, just a note, since I asked Creamsteak myself, maximum of 2 metamagic rods are allowed, and maximization is not allowed.

My character is almost finished, I should have him up by tomorrow methinks.


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## Victim (Jan 30, 2003)

Leopold, you might want to get the Use Magic Device skill if you want to use those scrolls you bought.  

Also, that Improved sneak attack feat is far superior to the Epic version.  Changing the die to a d8 adds about another point per die of sneak attack, so that's at least 8.  The Epic feat just adds another die for about 3.5 points per sneak attack.  Your version from Mercenaries and (Traps and Treachery), IIRC, is twice as good right now and becomes even better as you get more sneak attack dice.

You can dowload the FAQs from this page:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/er/er20021018a


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Jan 31, 2003)

Edit-Erm, character in rogue's gallery changed to a question...


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## Victim (Jan 31, 2003)

Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> *Edit-Erm, character in rogue's gallery changed to a question... *




Err, I hope Ha Nagas aren't allowed.  But heh, maybe then I could make a Paragon monk.  If a mind flayer is ECL +10, and a paragon mind flayer is ECL +26, then maybe a 30 point buy redguard Paragon monk 7 would work.  Of course, I tend to think that some of the Epic ECL adjustments are broken.  Just look at the Leshay.  They have 2 +15 equivalent swords - each one is worth most of the alotment for a level 33 character and the Leshay would have that amount as well.


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## Velenne (Jan 31, 2003)

It's my understanding from the character creation rules cs layed out that we can't have a creature with an ECL of more than +6.  I could be wrong though.


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## Sulli (Jan 31, 2003)

ya me and jemal have been talking about being brothers. ill have my character asap.


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## Creamsteak (Jan 31, 2003)

Velenne said:
			
		

> *It's my understanding from the character creation rules cs layed out that we can't have a creature with an ECL of more than +6.  I could be wrong though. *



I don't want to see ECLs with a total greater than +12. +12 is pretty high, but I prefer epic levels to be epic levels, not epic creatures.


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## Creamsteak (Jan 31, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *I think my character is ready to go.  I messed up on some of the Redguard abilites, but that should be fixed.  Mundane equipment has been added.  Languages have been added.
> 
> I thought I had costs for all my items.  Just after the item name, I state the price in thousands of gold piece.
> 
> ...



 I'll look into it when I've got time, I'm a bit busy right now.



> 2nd feat @ first level: Sollir was right, it was a leftover from my lich days .
> 
> Ring of Nine Lives is from MoF, need an OK on it. Basically, when you have less then 0 HP, it casts Heal on you, and it automatically saves vs. Death Effects and Negative Levels. When I'm home, I'll type the correct description.
> 
> The Fox Cunning is there for the DCs, the Headband is there for extra spells.



 Well, I'll let it heal you after you go below 0, but not below -10, and as sollir pointed out, I put a limit on metamagic rods (they are from a splat, and therefor are an item that I'm not allowing by default, as posted in the RG).



> SR 44 on level 20 ain't bad, not bad at all



I think it's supposed to be 11+10 Forsaker+Character Level, for 41, not 44.



> Btw does it do something for a drow ECL if they didn't have their spelllike abilities?



No. That doesn't seem fun at all.



> Also, that Improved sneak attack feat is far superior to the Epic version. Changing the die to a d8 adds about another point per die of sneak attack, so that's at least 8. The Epic feat just adds another die for about 3.5 points per sneak attack. Your version from Mercenaries and (Traps and Treachery), IIRC, is twice as good right now and becomes even better as you get more sneak attack dice.



Yeah, it is. I never quite liked that, but I'm 'ok' with it, as it's not that big of a deal.


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## Creamsteak (Jan 31, 2003)

I'll check the RG tomorrow, I have homework, and need some sleep.


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Jan 31, 2003)

Shame, I edited back Lord Venom in the rogue's gallery for posterity until I finish making my next character.


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## Sulli (Jan 31, 2003)

Here are some things I need to know if you're OKing or not.

Prestige class: Archmage from Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting Handbook. (I'ld write it out but it's too long).

FEATS:
From "Spells and Spellcraft":

Cooperative Magic(General)
Prereq: none
Benefit: Up to two spellcasters with this feat may cast any spell they both have prepared as a single spell with any one metamagic feat applied to it.  The spellcasters do not need the metamagic feat they wish to apply.
Casting a cooperative spell is a full round action, unless the spell being cast normally has a longer casting time, in which case that casting time applies.  Spells with a casting time of longer than one round add a +5 to the initial concentration check to cast the spell.
Spellcasters must be of the same type (Arcane or Divine, though class does not matter) in order to cooperatively cast a spell, but need not be of the same class.
In order to cast a cooperative spell, several conditions must be met:
Both casters must have the cooperative magic feat.
Both casters must cast their spells on the same initiative (Possibly requiring ready/delay actions)
The two spellcasters must be within 10' of one another.
Once these conditions are met, the two casters begin the cooperative casting.  Each must make a concentration check (DC 10+ spell lvl) in order to execute the advanced words and intricate semantics of the spells in unision.
If either caster fails the concentration check or the spell is interupted, both casters loose their spell.
If the spell goes off, the combined spel uses the average of the casters' levels to determine its caster level for any relevant effects, including caster level checks to beat spell resistance.  All other effects, such as range, area, or number of targets, are calculated using the highest of the casters levels.  The save DC vs a co-operative spell is 10+spell lvl + first casters ability Mod +1/2 second casters ability mod. (First caster is the one with the highest relevant ability mod).
The spell is cast as if it were modified by one of the following metamagic feats, though its actual level does not change: Empower Spell, Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Maximize Spell.


From "Tome and Blood"
Cooperative Spell(MetaMagic)
Prereq: Any other metamagic feat
Benefit: You and other spellcasters with this feat can simultaneously cast the same spell (At the same time in the round)  You must be adjacent to each other (Or at least 2 of the others if there are more than 2 casters).  Add +2 to the DC against cooperatively cast spellls and +1 to caster level checks to beat the target's spell resistance (If any).  Use the base dc and level check of the better caster.  A cooperative spell takes up a spell slot of the same level as the spells actual level.
Special: For each additional caster beyod two participating in the combined spell, add +1 to both the caster lvl check and the DC.

Greater Spell Focus
Prereq: Spell Focus
Benefit: You add +4 to the DC of all spells from the school you focus on (This supercedes, does not stack with Spell Focus)

Greater Spell Penetration
Prereq: Spell Penetration
Benefit: you get a +4 modifier on caster level checks to beat a creatures spell resistance.

Energy Substitution
Prereq: any other metamagic feat, 5 ranks Knowledge(Arcana)
Benefit: Choose an energy type (Acid, cold, electric, fire, or sonic).  You can modify a spell with an energy designator to use the chosen type of energy instead.  A substitued spell works normally in all respects except the type of damage dealt, which becomes the type chosen.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, choosing a different type of energy each time.

Energy Admixture
Prereq: Energy Substitution
Benefit: Choose a type of energy.  You can modify a spell with an energy designator to add an equal amount of the chosen type of damage.  The altered spell works normally in all respects except the type of damage dealt, which includes the normal type AND the chosen type.
Thus, an acid fireball cast at 6th lvl deald 6d6 fire damage and 6d6 *Energy* damage (Roll each set seperately, 1 saving throw is made for the whole spell, and applies equally to both.  The damage cap for the spell is unchanged, but counts seperately for each type of energy.  So an acid fireball cast at 10th lvl or higher deals 10d6 Fire damage and 10d6 Acid damage.
Even opposed types of energy, such as fire and cold, can be mixed with this feat.  
An admixed spell uses up a slot 4 lvls higher than the spells actual level.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, choosing a different type of energy each time.
You can use Admixture with a spell that has been modified by energy substitution.  You can also use energy admixture to include your chosen energy type with a spell that already uses the same type, in effect doubling the damage dice (A firey fireball for 20d6 points of Fire damage)

Extra Slot(General)
Prereq: spellcaster lvl 4th+
Benefit: You gain one extra spell slot in your daily allotement.  this extra slot can be at any lvl up to one lvl lower than the highest lvl spell you can cast.  Once selected the extra slot is permanent and never migrates up or down in lvl.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times.  Each time you gain an extra spell slot at any lvl up to one lower than the highest lvl spell you can cast when you take the feat.

Extra Spell(General)
Prereq: spellcaster lvl 3rd+
Benefit: You learn one additional spell at any lvl up to one lvl lower than the highest level spell you can cast.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times.  each time you learn a new spell at any lvl up to one lower than the highest lvl spell you can cast when you take the feat.


Also, Jemal says that if you allow some/most of these, He'll change his character to a spellcaster (Wel be doing them together and have them done when get an answer.


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## Victim (Jan 31, 2003)

I somehow forgot to transfer my enhanced Boots of Speed from the paper to the computer.  They are now added.

My Paragon monk was looking pretty scary too.  I was thinking of giving him some Shuriken, so that +20 bonus to damage keeps giving.  He could probably chew up all the other melee characters posted so far at once.


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## Janos Audron (Jan 31, 2003)

CS, I'm appealing to your common sense: Sollir used a ECL 26 Monster with 21 (!) caster levels as sorcerer...that is more than can be gained by playing a non monster...

That's just the caster level, never mind the ability scores, the DR 15/+7 and the 120 ft. Fly (Perfect).

AND, as a final argument, I'd like to point out that, if you use the list with the Lich +6 and the Pixie +4, the Ha Naga has an ECL of 54.



> _How To Calculate ECL_
> To find the Equivalent Character Level (ECL) for a race, use the following system. Begin by recording the modifiers for the abilities below.
> 
> Size: +1 per size category greater than medium or smaller than small.
> ...




Then a question: Now that you can play ECL 26 characters, is it possible to swap Class Levels for Point Buy Points? I.e. I take 24 PB and become a 24th level character?

Spells I'd like to be OK'd:

Duplicate, from BOEM II

Pass the Years
Transmutation
Cle 6, Wiz 6
V,S,m
1 action
Touch
1 creature
instantaneous
Fort neg
Yes

Spell causes magical, permanent aging in the target. All of the normal effects of aging apply (e.g. ability score adjustments) as if the target had aged those years naturally. By means of this spell, the target ages 1d10 years. A successful saving throw negates the aging.
Material Component: A lock of an elderly person's hair.


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## Creamsteak (Jan 31, 2003)

Wow. Well sollir, I havn't looked at it yet, but I don't think I'm going to give it my OK. I wouldn't have anyway (as per the comment above that I'd rather not see total racial ECL exceed 12, as I want an epic game), but really, it's extremely not-fun...

I guess I can take the ELH ECLs off the list, as the only really applicable one is the Mercane, which is in the manual of the planes as well...

Ok, and as for this...



> Now that you can play ECL 26 characters, is it possible to swap Class Levels for Point Buy Points? I.e. I take 24 PB and become a 24th level character?




No, it's not possible to play an ECL 26 character. I'm mitigating the actual ECLs existence to 20, nomatter what. So, you can't have epic feats and as well, you can't have more than 20 class levels when we begin.

Eh, I don't think you two understand WHY I made those options available. Some people don't like my version of trading point buy slots up to mitigate an ECL race instead of actual level loss, or they think it allows them to take epic feats. I did it so you could do things the 'traditional' way, or 'my' way. I explained that they could be used together as a cushion, by losing like 2 levels and 2 degrees of point buy. It was just for simplicities sake. I'm going to have to take away the toy later on.

And Janos, your spell has my approval, 100%.


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## Leopold (Jan 31, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *Leopold, you might want to get the Use Magic Device skill if you want to use those scrolls you bought.
> 
> Also, that Improved sneak attack feat is far superior to the Epic version.  Changing the die to a d8 adds about another point per die of sneak attack, so that's at least 8.  The Epic feat just adds another die for about 3.5 points per sneak attack.  Your version from Mercenaries and (Traps and Treachery), IIRC, is twice as good right now and becomes even better as you get more sneak attack dice.
> 
> ...





i thought i punched in several scores for use magic device? I will recheck.

So can i use that feat (improved Sneak Attack) as I have absolutely no desire to get one more dice, just do more damage. I think it fits in well with my PC concept. But you are the DM, let me know.


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## Lichtenhart (Jan 31, 2003)

Victim, Boots of S&S were errataed to 6,000, not 6,500. (You owe me 1k gp ). Also, I have problems figuring your AC. Shouldn't it be 46 instead of 52?

Half brother could work, but it's more feasible that we had the same celestial parent, rather than the mortal one (you decide if it was our mother of father). My char (Raxael) was the younger brother, and he studied at Jaren's monastery till he felt that wasn't his way. He become an half celestial when he actually sought the forces of heavens within and took the level of cleric. From that day on he traveled alone pursuing a diffferent type of wisdom.


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## Janos Audron (Jan 31, 2003)

CS, what about Eldritch Legacy from BOEM III?


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## Jemal (Jan 31, 2003)

CS - What about Mine+Sulli's questions up in Sulli's long post?


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## Victim (Jan 31, 2003)

Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> *Victim, Boots of S&S were errataed to 6,000, not 6,500. (You owe me 1k gp ). Also, I have problems figuring your AC. Shouldn't it be 46 instead of 52?
> 
> Half brother could work, but it's more feasible that we had the same celestial parent, rather than the mortal one (you decide if it was our mother of father). My char (Raxael) was the younger brother, and he studied at Jaren's monastery till he felt that wasn't his way. He become an half celestial when he actually sought the forces of heavens within and took the level of cleric. From that day on he traveled alone pursuing a diffferent type of wisdom. *




Err, yeah, it should be 46.  It sure is a good thing I did a complete breakdown of my AC, only to mess it up by mentally adding numbers from an older version.  I'm so smart. 

Name brand "Air Drizzt" Striding and Springing cross trainers accounts for the difference in GP costs.  

That background kernel seems fine to me.  You cleric types are always too focused on the heavens to properly deal with the world as it is.


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 31, 2003)

Cream, I'm gonna let myself get creative on some self made materials. I'll mail them to you today or tomorrow when I'm done with them. (Or unles you don't allow them per default)


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## Gurdjieff (Jan 31, 2003)

Cream, what's the ruling on Speed-enhancement? +7 or banned or what? And how do you use Scent for a Lycantrophe? Against invisible people, a spotcheck of DC20 combined with Scent, would it be enough to pinpoint someone that way?

I'm thinking of playing a Lycantrophe, working on him a bit, I'll try to finish him up tomorrow =].


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## Janos Audron (Jan 31, 2003)

Venuz, scent is a very well defined ability, and you can read all about it in the DMG, around page 85.


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## Gurdjieff (Jan 31, 2003)

I know Janos, but there's no description given for using Spot to see an invisible person and with scent. I mean, Blindsight is based on 3 ways of observing, sound, smell and vision, right? If blindsight is used without vision, it still works. I was wondering if Scent in combination with a succesful spotcheck would be enough to pinpoint an invisible person. Know I know Blindsight is not the same thing as Scent, Listen en Spot, thats why I ask.


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## Janos Audron (Jan 31, 2003)

It's either Spot DC 40 or Scent within 5 ft. (i.e. they do not stack) to *locate* the *square*, but neither will remove the miss chance. Only Blindsight will do that.


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## Creamsteak (Jan 31, 2003)

Originally posted by SulliHere are some things I need to know if you're OKing or not.

Prestige class: Archmage from Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting Handbook. (I'ld write it out but it's too long).

*I've given approval to Archmage as your prestige class. If someone else wants it, they still need to request it seperately.*

Cooperative Magic(General)
Prereq: none
Benefit: Up to two spellcasters with this feat may cast any spell they both have prepared as a single spell with any one metamagic feat applied to it.  The spellcasters do not need the metamagic feat they wish to apply.
Casting a cooperative spell is a full round action, unless the spell being cast normally has a longer casting time, in which case that casting time applies.  Spells with a casting time of longer than one round add a +5 to the initial concentration check to cast the spell.
Spellcasters must be of the same type (Arcane or Divine, though class does not matter) in order to cooperatively cast a spell, but need not be of the same class.
In order to cast a cooperative spell, several conditions must be met:
Both casters must have the cooperative magic feat.
Both casters must cast their spells on the same initiative (Possibly requiring ready/delay actions)
The two spellcasters must be within 10' of one another.
Once these conditions are met, the two casters begin the cooperative casting.  Each must make a concentration check (DC 10+ spell lvl) in order to execute the advanced words and intricate semantics of the spells in unision.
If either caster fails the concentration check or the spell is interupted, both casters loose their spell.
If the spell goes off, the combined spel uses the average of the casters' levels to determine its caster level for any relevant effects, including caster level checks to beat spell resistance.  All other effects, such as range, area, or number of targets, are calculated using the highest of the casters levels.  The save DC vs a co-operative spell is 10+spell lvl + first casters ability Mod +1/2 second casters ability mod. (First caster is the one with the highest relevant ability mod).
The spell is cast as if it were modified by one of the following metamagic feats, though its actual level does not change: Empower Spell, Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Maximize Spell.

*No.*

From "Tome and Blood"
Cooperative Spell(MetaMagic)
Prereq: Any other metamagic feat
Benefit: You and other spellcasters with this feat can simultaneously cast the same spell (At the same time in the round)  You must be adjacent to each other (Or at least 2 of the others if there are more than 2 casters).  Add +2 to the DC against cooperatively cast spellls and +1 to caster level checks to beat the target's spell resistance (If any).  Use the base dc and level check of the better caster.  A cooperative spell takes up a spell slot of the same level as the spells actual level.
Special: For each additional caster beyod two participating in the combined spell, add +1 to both the caster lvl check and the DC.

*Yes.*

Greater Spell Focus
Prereq: Spell Focus
Benefit: You add +4 to the DC of all spells from the school you focus on (This supercedes, does not stack with Spell Focus)

*Yes, this had my OK when I included the splat feats. Remember I just included the classbook feats, not classes and equipment.*

Greater Spell Penetration
Prereq: Spell Penetration
Benefit: you get a +4 modifier on caster level checks to beat a creatures spell resistance.

*Yes, as above.*

Energy Substitution
Prereq: any other metamagic feat, 5 ranks Knowledge(Arcana)
Benefit: Choose an energy type (Acid, cold, electric, fire, or sonic).  You can modify a spell with an energy designator to use the chosen type of energy instead.  A substitued spell works normally in all respects except the type of damage dealt, which becomes the type chosen.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, choosing a different type of energy each time.

*Yep, again.*

Energy Admixture
Prereq: Energy Substitution
Benefit: Choose a type of energy.  You can modify a spell with an energy designator to add an equal amount of the chosen type of damage.  The altered spell works normally in all respects except the type of damage dealt, which includes the normal type AND the chosen type.
Thus, an acid fireball cast at 6th lvl deald 6d6 fire damage and 6d6 *Energy* damage (Roll each set seperately, 1 saving throw is made for the whole spell, and applies equally to both.  The damage cap for the spell is unchanged, but counts seperately for each type of energy.  So an acid fireball cast at 10th lvl or higher deals 10d6 Fire damage and 10d6 Acid damage.
Even opposed types of energy, such as fire and cold, can be mixed with this feat.  
An admixed spell uses up a slot 4 lvls higher than the spells actual level.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, choosing a different type of energy each time.
You can use Admixture with a spell that has been modified by energy substitution.  You can also use energy admixture to include your chosen energy type with a spell that already uses the same type, in effect doubling the damage dice (A firey fireball for 20d6 points of Fire damage)

*Yep*

Extra Slot(General)
Prereq: spellcaster lvl 4th+
Benefit: You gain one extra spell slot in your daily allotement.  this extra slot can be at any lvl up to one lvl lower than the highest lvl spell you can cast.  Once selected the extra slot is permanent and never migrates up or down in lvl.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times.  Each time you gain an extra spell slot at any lvl up to one lower than the highest lvl spell you can cast when you take the feat.

Extra Spell(General)
Prereq: spellcaster lvl 3rd+
Benefit: You learn one additional spell at any lvl up to one lvl lower than the highest level spell you can cast.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times.  each time you learn a new spell at any lvl up to one lower than the highest lvl spell you can cast when you take the feat.

*Yep, and yep to both.*

Also, Jemal says that if you allow some/most of these, He'll change his character to a spellcaster (Wel be doing them together and have them done when get an answer.

*K*


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## Creamsteak (Jan 31, 2003)

Janos Audron said:
			
		

> *CS, what about Eldritch Legacy from BOEM III? *



Can you repost it? I don't have BoEM 3.


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## Victim (Jan 31, 2003)

Legacy of Eldritch is a 9th level in which the caster (who must be willing) sacrifices himself to add a sorcerer level to one of his younger relatives.


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Feb 1, 2003)

Erm, Janos, if you read my post, I already decided not to play with it by Creamsteak's first post, I said I added it in the rogue's gallery for posterity until I make my new character.

Edit-Furthermore, janos, you should be the last one complaining about balance


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## Sulli (Feb 1, 2003)

creamsteak, may i ask why you didn't aprove of "Cooperative Magic(General)"????


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## Janos Audron (Feb 1, 2003)

> Edit-Furthermore, janos, you should be the last one complaining about balance






But *you* inspired me, so it all your fault!!!()


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## Leopold (Feb 1, 2003)

Ok CS I need your approval on a few things:

Feats:  (CAPS names are from Netbook of feats)

1. IMPROVED DODGE [General: Defense]
COPYRIGHT 2001, Carl Cramér
Your Dodge feat bonus applies against all attackers.
Prerequisite: Dex 13+, Dodge
Benefit: The dodge bonus to Armor Class that you receive from the Dodge feat now applies against all attacks, not only those of one specific opponent.


2. IMPROVED FEINT [General]
COPYRIGHT 2001, Carl Cramér
You can feint readily in melee.
Prerequisite: Bluff skill
Benefit: You can now feint in combat as a movement-equivalent action rather than a standard action. You still use the bluff skill to feint and the target must be in your threatened zone. If you use this option, you must expose yourself in order to make such a quick feint, trigger attacks of opportunity if your bluff roll fails.
Notes: This is mainly a benefit to rogues, who can sneak attack a target that has been feinted. The risk of an opportunity attack makes this about as dangerous as tumbling.standard action and get an attack in.

3. Improved Sneak attack (AEG: Mercenaries): I up my sneak attack damage by one die (d6 to d8)

4. Quicker than the eye (WOTC: Song and Silence)

5.QUICKSILVER [General: Defense]
COPYRIGHT 2001, Eric D. Harry
You are truly adept at dodging blows and avoiding damage in combat.
Prerequisite: Dex 13+, Dodge, Base attack bonus +3 or higher
Benefit: Increase the dodge bonus provided to your Armor Class by your Dodge feat to +2. This supercedes (does not stack with) the Dodge feat. You can also apply this +2 bonus as a dodge bonus to Reflex saves against your chosen opponent. Any condition that makes you loose your dexterity bonus to Armor Class also makes you loose any dodge bonuses to your Armor Class or Reflex saves.
Special: This feat stacks with the Improved Dodge feat (also in this netbook), allowing you to apply the +2 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves granted by the Quicksilver feat against all opponents.

6. Dash (WOTC-Song and Silence): I move farther in light or no armor. 

7. WHIRLWIND DEFENSE [General: Defense]
COPYRIGHT 2001, Eric D. Harry
You are adept at defending yourself against multiple opponents.
Prerequisite: Dex 13+, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Base attack bonus +4 or higher
Benefit: When flanked in melee combat, your opponents lose their flanking bonus to attack rolls and can only make sneak attacks against you if their character level is higher than yours.
Normal: Attackers in flanking position gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls and can make sneak attacks against you.
  Balance: 4.15 (Purp 4.25, Pow 4.00, Port 4.50, Comp 4.00, Rule 4.00)


Basic PC concept: Invis all the time, move fast and undected, spring attack, kill, move away and remain invis. Move in fast, kill, move out fast, remain QUIET! Your all purpose halfling stealth master.


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Feb 1, 2003)

Taking a look at the Rogue's Gallery, one correction:

Sulli:
Wand of Maximized Delayed Blast Fireball(50 charges, 120 damage)(90,000)

This item (to my knowledge) is a bit off.
-Wands can hold a spell of no higher level than 4th, Delayed Blast Fireball is 7th
-A maximized delayed blast fireball is a 10th level spell... -Following the DMG rules, a wand like this, if it could be created (I really haven't gone into epic item creation myself), would be 20 (caster level to get it to 20d6 and then 120 when maximized) x 10 (spell level) x 750 =150,000 gold.


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## Sulli (Feb 1, 2003)

Sorry i had a friend make that wand up for me. do you think CS would know if that is right or wrong??.


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## Victim (Feb 1, 2003)

Actually, items requiring Epic things, like improved spell capacity for the level 10 spell, cost 10 times as much.  So that would be 1. million GP.  I'd let you have it at that price, even if high level spells go in staves and not wands.    Similarly, a wand of Quickened Haste is too high level to go into a wand.  

Also, don't Archmages need Skill Focus: Spellcraft?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Upon review of my sheet, I am currently using the following splatbook item abilities without explicit approval.

Ki straps:  +5 DC for stunning attacks, 5 000 GP; part of Gloves of Stunning Speed.

Sandals of the Tiger's Leap:  can do double damage on a charge attack, requires 5 ranks of jump or tumble to use, 3500 GP; part of Sandals fo the Tiger's Pounce

There was some talk of barring the Teleport subschool and resurrection magic.  Jaren has Dimension Door and Resurrection as 1/day spell like abilities.  

Other than the above, I should be ready to go.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 1, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *Legacy of Eldritch is a 9th level in which the caster (who must be willing) sacrifices himself to add a sorcerer level to one of his younger relatives. *



The spells fine. You can sacrifice your character with this spell to give a younger relative a level in sorcerer. That seems creative and interesting, but you can't have the spell cast by someone else to add more levels to yourself or anything like that. And, the level won't be 'free' as per experience and all that. Whoever gains the level is still going to have to earn the experience to gain that level if it's any level greater than 1st.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 1, 2003)

Sulli said:
			
		

> *creamsteak, may i ask why you didn't aprove of "Cooperative Magic(General)"???? *



The way it is written doesn't seem suitable to me.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 1, 2003)

1. IMPROVED DODGE [General: Defense]
COPYRIGHT 2001, Carl Cramér
Your Dodge feat bonus applies against all attackers.
Prerequisite: Dex 13+, Dodge
Benefit: The dodge bonus to Armor Class that you receive from the Dodge feat now applies against all attacks, not only those of one specific opponent.

*Yes.*


2. IMPROVED FEINT [General]
COPYRIGHT 2001, Carl Cramér
You can feint readily in melee.
Prerequisite: Bluff skill
Benefit: You can now feint in combat as a movement-equivalent action rather than a standard action. You still use the bluff skill to feint and the target must be in your threatened zone. If you use this option, you must expose yourself in order to make such a quick feint, trigger attacks of opportunity if your bluff roll fails.
Notes: This is mainly a benefit to rogues, who can sneak attack a target that has been feinted. The risk of an opportunity attack makes this about as dangerous as tumbling.standard action and get an attack in.
*Yes.*

3. Improved Sneak attack (AEG: Mercenaries): I up my sneak attack damage by one die (d6 to d8)
*Yes.*

4. Quicker than the eye (WOTC: Song and Silence)
*Yes.*
5.QUICKSILVER [General: Defense]
COPYRIGHT 2001, Eric D. Harry
You are truly adept at dodging blows and avoiding damage in combat.
Prerequisite: Dex 13+, Dodge, Base attack bonus +3 or higher
Benefit: Increase the dodge bonus provided to your Armor Class by your Dodge feat to +2. This supercedes (does not stack with) the Dodge feat. You can also apply this +2 bonus as a dodge bonus to Reflex saves against your chosen opponent. Any condition that makes you loose your dexterity bonus to Armor Class also makes you loose any dodge bonuses to your Armor Class or Reflex saves.
Special: This feat stacks with the Improved Dodge feat (also in this netbook), allowing you to apply the +2 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves granted by the Quicksilver feat against all opponents.
*Hrm... it's awkward, but I'll accept it.*

6. Dash (WOTC-Song and Silence): I move farther in light or no armor. 
*Yes.*

7. WHIRLWIND DEFENSE [General: Defense]
COPYRIGHT 2001, Eric D. Harry
You are adept at defending yourself against multiple opponents.
Prerequisite: Dex 13+, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Base attack bonus +4 or higher
Benefit: When flanked in melee combat, your opponents lose their flanking bonus to attack rolls and can only make sneak attacks against you if their character level is higher than yours.
Normal: Attackers in flanking position gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls and can make sneak attacks against you.
  Balance: 4.15 (Purp 4.25, Pow 4.00, Port 4.50, Comp 4.00, Rule 4.00)
*No.*

Basic PC concept: Invis all the time, move fast and undected, spring attack, kill, move away and remain invis. Move in fast, kill, move out fast, remain QUIET! Your all purpose halfling stealth master.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 1, 2003)

Sulli said:
			
		

> *Sorry i had a friend make that wand up for me. do you think CS would know if that is right or wrong??. *



I'm against wands having the ability to cast spells higher than 4th level and all that, but I'm fine if you pay for the item as if it was a staff (if the power was 9th level or lower) or as an Epic Item, which costs 10 times as much.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 1, 2003)

Actually, items requiring Epic things, like improved spell capacity for the level 10 spell, cost 10 times as much.  So that would be 1. million GP.  I'd let you have it at that price, even if high level spells go in staves and not wands.    Similarly, a wand of Quickened Haste is too high level to go into a wand.  

Also, don't Archmages need Skill Focus: Spellcraft?

*Yep, I'm thinking that could be true.*
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Upon review of my sheet, I am currently using the following splatbook item abilities without explicit approval.

Ki straps:  +5 DC for stunning attacks, 5 000 GP; part of Gloves of Stunning Speed.
*Fine.*

Sandals of the Tiger's Leap:  can do double damage on a charge attack, requires 5 ranks of jump or tumble to use, 3500 GP; part of Sandals fo the Tiger's Pounce
*Hrm... they are basically allowing a feat similar to ride-by attack. That price comes from what exactly? For now, this is a no.*

There was some talk of barring the Teleport subschool and resurrection magic.  Jaren has Dimension Door and Resurrection as 1/day spell like abilities.  
*I removed those bars during the re-revision of the game.*

Other than the above, I should be ready to go.


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## Janos Audron (Feb 1, 2003)

> _By Creamsteak_
> The spells fine. You can sacrifice your character with this spell to give a younger relative a level in sorcerer. That seems creative and interesting, but you can't have the spell cast by someone else to add more levels to yourself or anything like that. And, the level won't be 'free' as per experience and all that. Whoever gains the level is still going to have to earn the experience to gain that level if it's any level greater than 1st.







> _By BOEM III_
> Legacy of Eldritch Might
> Transmutation
> Level: Wiz/Sor 9 (sorcerer only)
> ...




Your version is a litte less ... useful, shall we say?


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## Leopold (Feb 2, 2003)

Ok i'll pick over another feat and post it, thanks for approving the ones you did. Do we start CS or are we on Standby till you can handle more than 4 of us?


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## Victim (Feb 2, 2003)

creamsteak said:
			
		

> *
> Hrm... they are basically allowing a feat similar to ride-by attack. That price comes from what exactly? For now, this is a no.*




I imagine that the price is based off Rhino Hide, but without the cost of +2 armor.  Still, who knows how the cost for Rhino Hide was developed and whether the fact that it requires that you wear crappy armor reduces the price.

I've removed it and picked up a Listen boost instead.  Now I actually have a reasonable chance of detecting myself.


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## The Forsaken One (Feb 2, 2003)

> Now I actually have a reasonable chance of detecting myself.




You might lose track of yourself, and we wouldn't want that now would we


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## Creamsteak (Feb 2, 2003)

Janos Audron said:
			
		

> *
> Your version is a litte less ... useful, shall we say? *



I like my version more, as it just entitles the role-playing benefit without adding the rather odd and unneccessary side benefits.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 2, 2003)

Leopold said:
			
		

> *Ok i'll pick over another feat and post it, thanks for approving the ones you did. Do we start CS or are we on Standby till you can handle more than 4 of us? *



 Standby.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 2, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I imagine that the price is based off Rhino Hide, but without the cost of +2 armor.  Still, who knows how the cost for Rhino Hide was developed and whether the fact that it requires that you wear crappy armor reduces the price.
> 
> I've removed it and picked up a Listen boost instead.  Now I actually have a reasonable chance of detecting myself. *



K


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## Sulli (Feb 2, 2003)

> I'm against wands having the ability to cast spells higher
> than 4th level and all that, but I'm fine if you pay for the
> item as if it was a staff (if the power was 9th level or
> lower) or as an Epic Item, which costs 10 times as much.




so i can have the wands as they are or do i have to change them???.


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## The Forsaken One (Feb 2, 2003)

Hmm let me see, what to do tomorrow:

Bus train bus vor 2 hours: Think of specifiactions for the "thing" in creamies epic game I'm brewing...

University blabla study study: Study

On my room @ university: Update Nocturnum for first time in 2 days (*shame*), write IR post, start statting up EPIC char (thank god I don't have to pic the equipment for a 20th level char and then adepting all my scores skills and abilities and then everything again, and then figure out you made a mistake soemwhere but don't know where.)


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## Lichtenhart (Feb 4, 2003)

CS, I finally finished my char. I'm waiting for your approval and an opening to catch up with Rearden.

Also, if you don't want _Resurrection_ to be available, can we trade that for a _Heal_?


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## Victim (Feb 4, 2003)

No Shadow Blows?!!!  Wow.  Now I think my character is sucky. 

Maybe I could revise my character.  Otherwise, Jaren would just slow Rhazael down.  I'm almost embarassed to ask about it, but what do you think of the Shiba Protector (or whatever the Phoenix Clan class is) from OA.


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Feb 4, 2003)

Is the Paragon template ok at +12 ECL?

I'm thinking about playing a LN Paragon Dwarven Fighter 6/Monk 1/Dwarven Thane 5 (Based off of WarCraft III, in a dragon issue, I can type it up) - ECL 22 -

Edit-Do I smell the possibility of Sollir's first up close and personal melee character?  Btw Dalamar, if I go this route, I wouldn't suppose you'd be interested in grouping with me?


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## Victim (Feb 5, 2003)

+12 for Paragon?  Using the formula on the website that most of the ECLs are on, I came up with over a +20 adjustment.  Without accounting for the magnitude of paragon abilities when compared to normal fast healing and DR.  But I'd take paragon for +12.

Neither of archmages has skill focus: spellcraft.  Also, Sulli and Jemal might want to look at the saving throws on their characters.  A huge Resistance bonus to saves isn't really optional, especially without back up around.

Of course, I haven't seen any updates on the IC thread lately.  Any discussion of characters might be a moot point.


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Feb 6, 2003)

+12 ECL is semi-official, considering the mindflayer ECL, the website is just a fan-thing, and while accurate at lower level games, I believe in a thread the system's creator, Soladrin, mentioned that things get really messy when trying to apply it to epic type creatures.


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## Victim (Feb 6, 2003)

I'm not seeing +12.  The CR for a paragon mindflayer is 22, but the ECL is 26.  Mindflayers are a +10 adjustment, if I'm looking at the right thing.  So the adjustment for the template looks like +16.

In any case, I hate the ECL adjustments for templates.  In most cases, a level 1 + template character isn't equivalent to a normal equivalent character.  However, toss many levels later, the balance swings the other way.  For example, a level 16 half dragon fighter will be generally equivalent a 20th level fighter in terms of HP and other level dependent effects, but will do more damage, have extra stat boosts, etc.  Almost all the penalties are gone, but most of the benefits remain.  Given the massive Con boosts and extra HP granted by the paragon, I'd say that it quickly reaches the point where the benefits far outweigh the costs.  Of course, that might be obvious simply because of your desire to play one.


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Feb 6, 2003)

I may perhaps decide not to do the dwarf if the general consensus is that may be too powerful.  But let me note, you're comparing two completely different systems, the most official ECL so far for a Mindflayer (outside of Savage Species, which I don't have myself) is +18, from the Dragon issue with the ECLs on races.  Making the ECL +8, which is too low, however, a compromise, and much more reasonable ECL is +12 for a Paragon.


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## Janos Audron (Feb 6, 2003)

Mind Flayer: +18
Paragon: +12

And you have never wondered how bad a Mind Flayer sucked, and how the Paragon template ruled? I cannot believe you think these are correct ECLs.


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## Gurdjieff (Feb 6, 2003)

Cream, posted this on page 2 as well, but no answer =]

About Speed enhancement on armors (Always hasted), you allow it? And as a +how much? 

Frenzied Beserker [MotW] allowed?

Helm of Vision [Always True Seeing, +1 insight to AC, dunno which book exactly, could be DMG, could be anything else] allowed?

The concept I'm going for is a half celestial weretiger paladin3/barbarian6/frenzied beserker10, 12 point buy, and I'm still working on him (upping damage, making sure the first FoD won't slay me, etc). 

Also, are those Ring of Nine Lives allowed? Would make quite a difference. I don't have the book in which they are [BoEM? MoF?] so if they are, how much do they cost? They sound quite nice for moi =]


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## Creamsteak (Feb 6, 2003)

Sulli said:
			
		

> *
> 
> so i can have the wands as they are or do i have to change them???. *



You must change them to follow the guidelines I'm using. You most likely cannot afford to craft a maximized delayed blast fireball wand, but it is within reason to craft an enlarged delayed blast fireball staff. I'll even let it be handled for cost as if it was a wand.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 6, 2003)

Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> *CS, I finally finished my char. I'm waiting for your approval and an opening to catch up with Rearden.
> 
> Also, if you don't want Resurrection to be available, can we trade that for a Heal? *



You have my approval, but I'm no-longer banning Resurrection. I removed that when I switched things over to accomodate the LHHS world. Illussions of certain genres and necromantic spells are still semi-restricted, but given the character level I'm ignoring it in all but the most powerful cases.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 6, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *No Shadow Blows?!!!  Wow.  Now I think my character is sucky.
> 
> Maybe I could revise my character.  Otherwise, Jaren would just slow Rhazael down.  I'm almost embarassed to ask about it, but what do you think of the Shiba Protector (or whatever the Phoenix Clan class is) from OA. *



Shiba Protector (or whatever the Pheonix Clan Class is) from OA, is fine with me, but your going to be required to rename it, note the source, and maybe do a little re-description so that it isn't associated to the legend of the five rings campaign setting.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 6, 2003)

Originally posted by Venus 
Cream, posted this on page 2 as well, but no answer =]

About Speed enhancement on armors (Always hasted), you allow it? And as a +how much? 

*Where is this speed enhancement on armor from?*

Frenzied Beserker [MotW] allowed?

*Yes, I think it would fit.*

Helm of Vision [Always True Seeing, +1 insight to AC, dunno which book exactly, could be DMG, could be anything else] allowed?

*Yes, just get the right price down. That seems acceptable.*

The concept I'm going for is a half celestial weretiger paladin3/barbarian6/frenzied beserker10, 12 point buy, and I'm still working on him (upping damage, making sure the first FoD won't slay me, etc). 
*??? Now that's odd. I'm alright with it, with a few acceptions. If your going to be a were-tiger, I would think it most 'fascinating' if you played a Khajitte, which is a cat-like person, lacking most of the animalistic traits. A Khajitte uses the stats of the OA Nezumi, with some modifiers. If they are not in the Rogues Gallery, tell me and I'll pass them over to you. If your willing to play a Half-Celestial Weretiger Khajitte Paladin/barbarian/frenzied berzerker, I think that would be really neat.*

Also, are those Ring of Nine Lives allowed? Would make quite a difference. I don't have the book in which they are [BoEM? MoF?] so if they are, how much do they cost? They sound quite nice for moi =]
*I've okayed one Ring of Nine Lives. It's fitting for your character thematically. They cost the amount listed in Janos thing (90k I think). Though, that cost comes from some unknown method.*


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## Creamsteak (Feb 6, 2003)

Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> *Is the Paragon template ok at +12 ECL?
> 
> I'm thinking about playing a LN Paragon Dwarven Fighter 6/Monk 1/Dwarven Thane 5 (Based off of WarCraft III, in a dragon issue, I can type it up) - ECL 22 -
> 
> Edit-Do I smell the possibility of Sollir's first up close and personal melee character?  Btw Dalamar, if I go this route, I wouldn't suppose you'd be interested in grouping with me? *




I really like the character, with the only exception being the Template. I'm against the use of Paragon in this game, as it REALLY doesn't fit the setting, and I don't see how it would be a flavor element. However, one other note comes to mind. If your a dwarf, your age is going to be 10x whatever it would 'normally' be. This is because the only remaining dwarves are semi-immortal, and are normally NOT a PC race, but It seems fine for this game. If your going to be a dwarf, it would be quite interesting, as you would be at least a few hundred years old, and therefor know a little more about the raw definitions of the campaign setting.


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## Jemal (Feb 6, 2003)

creamsteak said:
			
		

> *You must change them to follow the guidelines I'm using. You most likely cannot afford to craft a maximized delayed blast fireball wand, but it is within reason to craft an enlarged delayed blast fireball staff. I'll even let it be handled for cost as if it was a wand. *




Actually, according to the DMG wands and staves cost the same to make (375 GP X spell Lvl X Caster Lvl), so therefore they SHOULD cost the same to buy, so it doesn't make a difference.

The only differences in the DMG are that theres is no limit to what lvl spells can go into staves(Though I must admit I've never seen actual official rulings that say you CAN'T place a higher lvl spell in a wand), and staves can have secondary/tertiary powers.

Staves with more than 1 spell:
Cost: most expensive spell+ 75% of the second most expensive spell + 1/2 of the third, + 1/2 of everyone after that.

DMG page 246.
Just so ya know.

And you're right, he couldn't get a maximized delayed blast Fireball b/c that would be a lvl 10 spell.. That was my mistake, I was helping him and thought for some reason that D.B. Fireball was lvl 6.


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## Gurdjieff (Feb 6, 2003)

The Speed enhancement is from DotF, a +3 enhancement. 

I've never heard of a "Khajitte" before, and can't find it in the Rogues Gallery.

The Helm of Vision was 90k according to the book I used (still looking for which book it was).


*Edit*
Khajiit ECL +0. +2 Con, -2 Cha. +2 Hide, +2 Move Silently, Nezumi Traits (Oriental Adventures). +2 Hide, +2 Jump, +2 Move Silently, +2 Reflex, -2 Will.

What are the Nezumi traits? =O


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## Jemal (Feb 6, 2003)

I think helm of vision is from one of the Forgotten Realms books, but I'm not sure.


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## Gurdjieff (Feb 6, 2003)

Nope, also DotF, Helm of Vision, 91.600 gp

New question, Arms of Nyr (+2 strenght, +2 dex (unnamed bonusses), +2 AC (Deflection)) allowed? Multiple times? 12,800 a piece, also from DotF.


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## Jemal (Feb 6, 2003)

So CS, is my character ready to go IC yet?  I edited my post near the beginning of the thread to take into account the changes to my character...
Or should I just post a new post?
Or are you busy with the other people?
Or does my character need changes?

Also are Sulli & I starting together since our characters are borthers?


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Feb 6, 2003)

Well, since people are bringing up 'broken' stuff within the rules, I suggest not allowing a Ring of Nine Lives for several reasons.

Reason A) It's unfair to all other players who already started that the other characters have, virtually, 9 x their normal hitpoints for the purposes of this game.
Reason B) It's unfair to a monster's CR if character have the item since monsters have to work 9 x as hard to kill them, including those with death spells.
Reason C) It's too cheap for the effects it gives, it automatically heals you when you reach below 0, compared to other 70,000 and up gold items (it's correct cost).

Although its still your decision, things get a little crazy with them around.


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Feb 6, 2003)

> *Originally posted by Creamsteak:*
> I really like the character, with the only exception being the Template. I'm against the use of Paragon in this game, as it REALLY doesn't fit the setting, and I don't see how it would be a flavor element. However, one other note comes to mind. If your a dwarf, your age is going to be 10x whatever it would 'normally' be. This is because the only remaining dwarves are semi-immortal, and are normally NOT a PC race, but It seems fine for this game. If your going to be a dwarf, it would be quite interesting, as you would be at least a few hundred years old, and therefor know a little more about the raw definitions of the campaign setting.




Hrmmm, I'll consider playing him still.  Without the paragon template he wouldn't be near as effective methinks but maybe replacing that ECL with the dwarven defender PrC might help a little, dunno.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 7, 2003)

Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> *Well, since people are bringing up 'broken' stuff within the rules, I suggest not allowing a Ring of Nine Lives for several reasons.
> 
> Reason A) It's unfair to all other players who already started that the other characters have, virtually, 9 x their normal hitpoints for the purposes of this game.
> Reason B) It's unfair to a monster's CR if character have the item since monsters have to work 9 x as hard to kill them, including those with death spells.
> ...



Oh, I agree with you sollir. I'm allowing it for 2 reasons. 1, Janos makes a good test Dummy, I'm pretty sure he knows that. I can have him fight all kinds of experimental creatures, to gauge all different kinds of things. 2. It makes the concept of Venus playing a 'cat with 9 lives' that much cooler.

Oh, and 3. Sollir, if your going to build an uber character, your going to fall into slot with Janos, a test dummy for my concoctions. I'd rather insure that 'someone' can kill them before I throw them at the more standard and less crazy characters. 

Basically, Janos is choosing to play a game with an over-powered character, but will you? Its going to determine how I react to your character.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 7, 2003)

Jemal said:
			
		

> *So CS, is my character ready to go IC yet?  I edited my post near the beginning of the thread to take into account the changes to my character...
> Or should I just post a new post?
> Or are you busy with the other people?
> Or does my character need changes?
> ...




Damnit! I was wondering why you were asking questions about your brother, rather than taking the lead off with that! Interpret my post however you choose, I'll wait for Sulli to join in before moving on.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 7, 2003)

Venus said:
			
		

> *Nope, also DotF, Helm of Vision, 91.600 gp
> 
> New question, Arms of Nyr (+2 strenght, +2 dex (unnamed bonusses), +2 AC (Deflection)) allowed? Multiple times? 12,800 a piece, also from DotF. *



Well, change the Unnamed bonus to Insight. No stacking on using the same item twice though, that's completely and totally not-cool seeming.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 7, 2003)

Venus said:
			
		

> *The Speed enhancement is from DotF, a +3 enhancement.
> 
> I've never heard of a "Khajitte" before, and can't find it in the Rogues Gallery.
> 
> ...



Medium Size, Base speed of 40 feet, Low light vision, +2 racial bonus vs. poison and disease, Immune to taint (doesn't apply here really), natural claws and bite attacks for 1d4, Free Scent feat if you have a wisdom of 11 or higher.

Edit: Nezumi start with common and their own language (nezumi) as base languages.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 7, 2003)

Jemal said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Actually, according to the DMG wands and staves cost the same to make (375 GP X spell Lvl X Caster Lvl), so therefore they SHOULD cost the same to buy, so it doesn't make a difference.
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure all of that is true. I just didn't have the book on hand when I last posted.


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Feb 7, 2003)

We'll just have to see, although being a test dummy is kind of tempting.  Just want a shot at actually being able to best a Night Troll  (probably won't be able to anyways )


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## Gurdjieff (Feb 7, 2003)

You still didn't rule on the Speed enhancement (always hasted, +3 mod, DotF). If not +3, how much is it?

I'll go with the Khajiit


Do you allow Blindsight from MoF (Lvl 3 Druid spell), it's 30ft.
Same for the Spellblade enhancement (+1 weapon, makes you immune to 1 spell)
And the Warning enhancement (+1 weapon, grants same as uncanny dodge; dex to ac, ea not flatfooted unless flanked)

Hmmm, those are the most important for now =]


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## Victim (Feb 7, 2003)

I believe the FAQ changed speed armor to a +2 equivalent that acts like boots of speed.  I think the DotF designer guy said that Speed armor as originally written would be something like +7.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 8, 2003)

You still didn't rule on the Speed enhancement (always hasted, +3 mod, DotF). If not +3, how much is it?

*Actually, I did, I asked what the source and cost was. Now that I know, well... I'm thinking no. Always hasted is a fine possibility, but I don't like the idea of 'hasted armor' for a + modifier cost. That doesn't make sense to me as much as armor with a permanent haste cost factored in seperately (at x2 cost, because it's an additional attached power).*

I think the cost would be +70,000 gold to the armor's normal cost, and the power becomes use activated.

I'll go with the Khajiit

*awesome*

Do you allow Blindsight from MoF (Lvl 3 Druid spell), it's 30ft.
Same for the Spellblade enhancement (+1 weapon, makes you immune to 1 spell)
*Yes to Blindsight.*
*Is it 'any' one spell, or one particular spell?*

And the Warning enhancement (+1 weapon, grants same as uncanny dodge; dex to ac, ea not flatfooted unless flanked)

*Same as the above, I estimate the actual cost of doing this would be 4000 * Minimum Required Character Level (3) * 2 as a secondary ability. That's not too bad, 24,000 gold.

So, what's your opinion?*


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## Creamsteak (Feb 8, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *I believe the FAQ changed speed armor to a +2 equivalent that acts like boots of speed.  I think the DotF designer guy said that Speed armor as originally written would be something like +7. *



Yeah, I'm thinking that the speed armor is poorly written, but by the rules I think it's still a possible item.


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## Victim (Feb 8, 2003)

Spell Blade works against a single spell chosen when the weapon is enchanted.


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Feb 8, 2003)

but does not help vs. area spells, only single target spells.  Furthermore, it allows the wielder to either dissipate it or turn it back at the caster the next round.

Unbalanced if you let allow it to work vs. targeted dispel/greater dispel magic.


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## Victim (Feb 8, 2003)

Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> *but does not help vs. area spells, only single target spells.  Furthermore, it allows the wielder to either dissipate it or turn it back at the caster the next round.
> 
> Unbalanced if you let allow it to work vs. targeted dispel/greater dispel magic. *




Maybe.  When a character is Charmed or Dominated, etc, then those Dispels are a good thing.  But you can't choose to turn off the immunity.

I think it'd be cool to pick Magic Missile.  Then, when someone casts the spell at you, you deflect every MM with the sword and reflect them back at an enemy.  "What?! You can't block Magic Missiles with a sword.  They always hit."


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Feb 8, 2003)

Shield would be a better option then, I'd imagine.  A brooch of shielding is pretty cheap too.  Or heck, even spell immunity.  There's dozens of counter spells for simple things like Magic Missile, look at the IR Aftermath characters under 'Janos Audron' to see abuse of the spellblade


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## Victim (Feb 8, 2003)

I never said that it was the best way to defeat magic missiles, just that it was cool.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 8, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *I never said that it was the best way to defeat magic missiles, just that it was cool. *



I agree! If you want a sword that bounces all magic missle attacks off, go for it! I think that's just cool 'seeming' and that's what really matters to me.

Also, if someone wants to write up a spell called "PRISMATIC MISSLE" I was interested in having it in this setting. Basically Magic Missle/Prismatic Spray as a 9th level spell. Of course, it really should be 11th or something, but I just want to sit down and read it before I consider that.


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Feb 8, 2003)

Well, I created Prismatic Missile for anyone who wants to use it, don't have to use this version but its just my take.  Material component to help balance it a little in case, as CS suspects, it might be a bit overpowered.

*Prismatic Missile*
Evocation
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium
Targets: Four or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart
Duration: Instaneous
Saving Throw: Yes (see below)
SR: Yes

Upon casting this spell, you create 1 Prismatic Missile per 4 caster levels (no maximum), which dart out of the caster's extended hand.
Each missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee or has anything less than total cover or concealment.  Specific parts of a creature cannot be singled out.  Inanimate objects (locks, etc.) cannot be damaged by the spell.
Each missile deals a random amount of damage depending on its color on the chart:

1d8
1-Red Missile-Effect: 20 points of fire damage (Reflex half)
2-Orange Missile-Effect: 40 points of acid damage (Reflex half)
3-Yellow Missile-Effect: 80 points of electricity damage (Reflex half)
4-Green Missile-Effect: Poison (Kills; Fortitude partial, take 20 points of damage instead)
5-Blue Missile-Effect: Turned to stone (Fortitude negates)
6-Indigo Missile-Effect: Insane, as insanity spell (Will negates)
7-Violet-Effect: Sent to another plane (Will negates)
8-Dual colored Missile: roll again twice, ignoring any "8" results.

Material Component: A shard of multi-hued glass worth at least 1000 gold.


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## Janos Audron (Feb 8, 2003)

WTF!?

CS is allowing all those really nice things I thought were too abusive to even ask...@_@

Bladed Boots, here I come!


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Feb 8, 2003)

That's the problem with you Janos, you keep using the same old tricks, over and over and over.  Doesn't it get boring for you?  

*sigh*

Don't forget you have to get your idea approved as bladed boots are in FRCS.


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## Janos Audron (Feb 8, 2003)

Sollir, it would get boring if I actually played those characters, but because *someone* left me behind in the Aftermath, I was unable to do so...so this is actually my first try for this character.

And besides, this one isn't a lich...

CS, do you approve Bladed Boots?

Small weapons, exotic, 1d4 piercing dmg, 19-20 / x2, 25 GP. Weapon is spring loaded, and you can not run or charge while the blade is out. Source: FRCS.


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## The Forsaken One (Feb 8, 2003)

Heh fighter with two claw bracers, two bladed boots and armor spikes with multi dexterity and multiattack feats. Heh lol


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## Victim (Feb 8, 2003)

Why be a fighter?  Go rogue for ultimate sneak attack goodness.


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## Janos Audron (Feb 8, 2003)

rtm, you must have 3+ arms, and most fighters don't have that...

why go rogue? Go wizard for the ultimate Save or Die with a DC you can not even dream to make goodness. (Mords Disjunction, and your save or die spell of choise while you're hasted)


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## Sulli (Feb 8, 2003)

CS my character is done now and i wont be touching it. i did the last modifications to him last night  and i wount be touching him unless we level up. which i hope we do.


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## The Forsaken One (Feb 8, 2003)

Ow my god :/ I just must take those damned 2 levels down or else a Forsaker with 36 point buy this way isn't playable :/

The stats are just too low shrug :/

So level Ftr8 Forsaker 10 it is =[ 

(with no magical equipment hahahahaha, I suck so hard )

[Edit: Lol Carrying enough food with me really is gonna be an issue, lol! /edit]


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## Creamsteak (Feb 9, 2003)

Janos Audron said:
			
		

> *Sollir, it would get boring if I actually played those characters, but because *someone* left me behind in the Aftermath, I was unable to do so...so this is actually my first try for this character.
> 
> And besides, this one isn't a lich...
> 
> ...



What's so munchkin about this? It seems fine with me, though I'm not even remotely sure what your getting at.


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## Victim (Feb 9, 2003)

Well, I have an idea for rewriting the flavor text of the Shiba protector.  However, I'm not sure how well my idea would fit in with your world either.

Essentially, the class's abilities fall into 3 areas: combat abilities based on inner focus, defenses against magic (SR, bonuses versus spells and spell like powers), and ways to assist friendly spellcasters.  The class is excellent for monks, so there's probably a lawful focus.  The feats required are defensive in nature.

The way I see things, a typical society in a DnD world is going to be under a lot of pressure.  First of all, there's the same stuff that happens here.  Competition, war, armies, plague, famine.  While magic can reduce some of the problems here, it can't completely negate them.  Even if there are lots of clerics able to cast Cure Disease, if they don't catch an outbreak right away, it can spread beyond their ability to cure.  Second, monsters provide a significant external threat.  Finally, powerful individuals can, be themselves, be dangerous from within or from outside society.  

I see the Order of the Phoenix as defenders of order and benevolence.  Order is needed lest civilization be swept away, and benevolence is needed lest order forget its purpose and stop protecting and helping people.  The group is made up mostly of skilled and competent people that aren't evil or chaotic.  Skilled warriors and spellcasters can help deal with external threats like monsters.  Because of their organization, they can exert some influence on rulers and other prominent groups to strengthen order.  And, because it consists of intrinsicly skilled individuals - especially monks and spellcasters - strong rulers attempting to supress the group will run into some difficulties.  It's not like you can confiscate a monk's weapons, so he'd always be a relatively inconspicious threat.

The prestige class represent special training availible to members of the order with advanced skills, and who have proven themselves worthy.  Because normal people have little defense against magical attacks, spellcasting characters and creatures are great threats.  Therefore, the training increases one's resistance to magical attacks.  Similarly, some threats are best dealt with magically, so one can learn to assist allied spellcasters.  Finally, the same inner focus and will that strengthens the mind of the initiate can be refined into an incredible combat talent: with great will, one can surpass his or her normal limits.

EDIT:

I think my character is ready too.


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## Gurdjieff (Feb 9, 2003)

CS, now combine those boots with Spellblade enchancement which you allowed... 7 times per boot or so ;o


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## Janos Audron (Feb 9, 2003)

Venuz, let me tell you a story about a man named: "SH!"


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## The Forsaken One (Feb 9, 2003)

Venuz, you do know it's hard to talk when you've got 6 inches of knife sticking out of your face?

Mostly just gurgle and bleed.

{Sorry Rom, hij  vroeg erom }


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## Jemal (Feb 9, 2003)

Janos Audron said:
			
		

> *Venuz, let me tell you a story about a man named: "SH!" *




*Fiddle starts playing.. dedle de da de da de de de*
"Come listen to a story 'bout a man named Jed,
Poor mountaineer barely kept his family fed,
Then one day he was shooting at some food,
and up from the ground came a bubbling crude.
Oil that is.. black gold, tex.. "*BANG, Fiddle blows up*
"thanx, I needed that."


Sorry, had a hillbilly moment... Bad Janos, don't do that to me again. 

hehe.


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Feb 9, 2003)

The thing that's broken about it is that to use spell blade the item must be out, and normally this would take up your hand space (making 2 a bit harder to wield if you were a wizard who wanted to cast spells with the S component) or it could be disarmed.  With blade boots, they're considered a 'weapon' so they can be enchanted with spell blade, furthermore, they can't be disarmed and they don't take up handspace.

Spellblade is broken already without the blade boot anyways IMO and the claw bracer basically manages the same thing.


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## Victim (Feb 9, 2003)

Spellblade 7 times, on boots, bracers, and armor spikes? 

It sounds interesting, but not terribly cost effective.  Afterall, that's more than 600k spent, all for defense against targeted spells.  The character would still be vulnerable to area spells - like a super high DC Disjunction followed by magical attacks now that the character's defenses have been stripped away.  IIRC, Ray or energy missile spells would likewise be unaffected, so you could still be toasted by a single high DC Disentegrate or a barrage of enervations.

A Spell Turning item would be alot cheaper for a comparable effect.

You might want to review the False lover racial benefits.  First of all, you don't have a CHA score listed for when Pleasing Illusion isn't in effect.  Also, the Charisma effects from Pleasing Illusion seem to be referencing 2e mechanics (reaction rolls?).  Finally, the abilities lack desciptors - Unearthly Glamour looks like it could be [Mind Affecting] and [Charm] for example.  It seems sloppily put together.


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Feb 9, 2003)

Same charisma, I'm guessing its mainly there for flavor, and mentioning that they don't look like undead (and instead a humanoid of the appropriate charisma if you equate charisma/beauty) unless you see past their illusion.

Unearthly Glamour lacks modifiers perhaps do to 2 reasons:
A) It came out before the Monster Manual, and is lacking rules in several other areas (the Unhallowed in the book have con scores)
B) Unearthly Glamour, by its description, is a cross between Dominate Monster (Compulsion, Mind-affecting) and Control Undead which is a necromantic effect with no modifiers (since by its wording a False Lover can even hold sway over intelligent undead).

Although the reason its printed that way is most likely due to the first one, I'm inclined to think it could still lack a modifier due to the second reasoning.


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## Janos Audron (Feb 9, 2003)

Victim: Spell turning is 150k, the nasty spells I'm immune to now have cost me 72k. That's two +6 items I have saved. And besides, now *I* can aim the spell, so it doesn't have to go back to the caster, but maybe to someone else...


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## Victim (Feb 10, 2003)

Well, then you only have one spellblade, instead of 7x Spellblades for each hand and foot.  I'd say that the limitations on spells affected versus costs make an item of that sort fairly balanced.  While the effect is superior to spell turning, it only works on a few spells.  

If the False Lover is from the CC, then I guess that explains why I thought it was sloppy.


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Feb 10, 2003)

It depends, Victim, when used it really only needs to target certain spells, the rest the caster doesn't have to worry much about.  For instance, a simple +1 weapon of spell blade: greater dispel magic is a boon to any high level caster, for a mere price of 8k.


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## Janos Audron (Feb 10, 2003)

Yup, since it makes you immune to both the targetted dispel and the counterspel variants...

And besides, you don't need to be immune for every targetted spell, since you have access to Mind Blank, mind affecting spells aren't a problem anymore...


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## Jemal (Feb 10, 2003)

I believe someone pointed this out before, But I'll say it anyways.

Mordenkainens.
Disjunction.

Very little that can't be ended by that, if your opponent Has and is willing to use 9th level spells (Of Course at epic level that's not to big of a leap..)


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## Janos Audron (Feb 10, 2003)

yep, but a wizard has more than 75% chance to avoid Mord's Disjunction.


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## Jemal (Feb 10, 2003)

hmm.. You have the same PHB as me?
Check me if I'm wrong: 

All spells in area of effect gone instantly, Magic items get will saves INDIVIDUALLY, meaning each one has a chance to get destroyed or not (One lucky/unlucky save don't do it).
And just for an example, to have a 75% chance of making the save DC for Williams MD, you'ld need a +33 will bonus..
I beefed mine fairly well, yet as a wise(22 wis) sorceror with an amulet of Resist+4, I still only have +22 myself... I'ld need a 16+ to make my own will save DC for Mords Dis. *L*, that's the inverse of your 'average wizard, Il'd have a 25% chance instead of 75%.

Just an example of a really high Will save:
Beefed cleric or druid (The only classes with any reason to have WIS above 30) could get a max wis mod of 12, +12 base save, +5 magic Resistance, +2 Iron Will, and +1 if it's a halfling.  Luckstone would give a +1 luck bonus, and Pale Green Prism Ioun stone gives +1 competence bonus to saves.
That's the highest Will save you can get using PHB/DMG, for a total of +34. (they'd do fairly well against my spells, only need a 4 or better.)

So yeah, I suppose if you made the character specifically to have a super awesome powerful will save, you could survive a mords disjunction with JUST loosing 1/4 of your magic items and all your previously cast spells.  BUt that means you're still loosing 1/4 of your items... permanently.

Sorry for the rant, but it's a wickedly overpowered spell, at least for use against characters.  VS monsters it's barely worth it, you're not denying them too much, and it's just that much less treasure for yourself.. It was basically included as one of the DM-spells used to keep PCs in line.


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## Victim (Feb 10, 2003)

Really?

Rom:  
Abjuration DC = 39
Will save= +23 

William Masterson
Abjuration DC = 38
Will save = +23 

Sniper Masterson
Abjuration DC = 37
Will save = +19

Veit uses EoM rules, which work slightly differently with regard to Dispeling and Disjunction.  However, his 9th level save DC is 25 and his Will save is +16.

Aside from the EoM mage, the best chance against Disjunction is 30%.  

A Spell Blade against Greater Dispeling is probably the most abusive use, especially if you use lots of powerful defensive buffs.  

Non Detection combined with Improved Invisibility works pretty well at defeating targeted spells, since even with See Invisibility, one needs to make a caster level check against a higher than normal DC in order to detect the mage.


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## Lichtenhart (Feb 10, 2003)

OK, OK, I won't gloat over the fact that I have a +37 will save and blindsight


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## Janos Audron (Feb 10, 2003)

You guys *so* have no idea what you are talking about.

LOL!


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## Creamsteak (Feb 10, 2003)

Now it looks like I have a ton of reviewing to do. Rom, don't 'hide' things from me. I'm here to be entertained, and to provide entertainment. So are you. Tell me, outright, what you plan on doing with each thing your munchkinizing before you ask for the OK, and also, put your spell list on your Rogues Gallery post.

I trust that no other player would use that knowledge against you, and you are, as well, forbade from using knowledge of their characters against them. You know this, and I trust that it's all not an issue, but I want you to tell me you know this. Anyway, now to update this thread.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 10, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *Well, I have an idea for rewriting the flavor text of the Shiba protector.  However, I'm not sure how well my idea would fit in with your world either.
> 
> Essentially, the class's abilities fall into 3 areas: combat abilities based on inner focus, defenses against magic (SR, bonuses versus spells and spell like powers), and ways to assist friendly spellcasters.  The class is excellent for monks, so there's probably a lawful focus.  The feats required are defensive in nature.
> 
> ...




Alright, the Order of the Pheonix will act as a seperate "section 13" of the greater church of free worship, which is headed by the diety Elishar. That seems to fit, as Elishar is a sun god.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 10, 2003)

Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> *The thing that's broken about it is that to use spell blade the item must be out, and normally this would take up your hand space (making 2 a bit harder to wield if you were a wizard who wanted to cast spells with the S component) or it could be disarmed.  With blade boots, they're considered a 'weapon' so they can be enchanted with spell blade, furthermore, they can't be disarmed and they don't take up handspace.
> 
> Spellblade is broken already without the blade boot anyways IMO and the claw bracer basically manages the same thing. *



Ah, I see. Well then, it's not an issue. Here's my thing, this item bonus seems pretty cool in the 'deflects the ray back at the wizard' sense, but I don't understand how 'cool' it is to use as a munchy tool.

Janos, you have complete permission to have up to 5 Spell Blade enchantments. No more though, as that steps out of the 'cool' range and into the 'over the top' side.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 10, 2003)

Victim said:
			
		

> *You might want to review the False lover racial benefits.  First of all, you don't have a CHA score listed for when Pleasing Illusion isn't in effect.  Also, the Charisma effects from Pleasing Illusion seem to be referencing 2e mechanics (reaction rolls?).  Finally, the abilities lack desciptors - Unearthly Glamour looks like it could be [Mind Affecting] and [Charm] for example.  It seems sloppily put together. *




Yeah, I was considering this earlier when looking at Sollir's character. I'm almost possitive, now that someone else has said it, that your 'real' charisma and 'effective' charisma are different. Are you still going your 'false lover' route, or what?


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## Janos Audron (Feb 10, 2003)

Well, the Duplicate, Pass the Years and Eldritch Legacy were there to gain almost infinite sorcerer levels, except that you nerfed EL. Sollir wasn't able to pull it off, so I wanted to see if I could...

Blindsight is there to see in Darkness and to see Invisible creatures

Bladed Boots and spellblade are there to make me immune to a few of the worst spells out there.

Posted my spell list.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 10, 2003)

Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> *Same charisma, I'm guessing its mainly there for flavor, and mentioning that they don't look like undead (and instead a humanoid of the appropriate charisma if you equate charisma/beauty) unless you see past their illusion.
> 
> Unearthly Glamour lacks modifiers perhaps do to 2 reasons:
> A) It came out before the Monster Manual, and is lacking rules in several other areas (the Unhallowed in the book have con scores)
> ...



Your character, after some more consideration, is seeming very 'distant' from the setting. I'm alright with limited undead, especially those with ancient unique stories, but your character is going to need more development in order for me to accept it. Besides your race and innate motives, what else are you going to be trying to accomplish with your character, Sollir?


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## Victim (Feb 10, 2003)

creamsteak said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Alright, the Order of the Pheonix will act as a seperate "section 13" of the greater church of free worship, which is headed by the diety Elishar. That seems to fit, as Elishar is a sun god. *




Okay.

I wouldn't consider a temporary, spell created, Duplicate the same thing as a relative anyway.  ". . . you and it are one person; one mind with 2 bodies."

I wouldn't consider Harm or Temporal Stasis valid effects for a spell blade, since those are Touch spells and not targeted ones.  It might be tough to reflect an Imprisonment, but immunity is nice.

I'm surprised that no one is using Astral Projection.


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## Janos Audron (Feb 11, 2003)

well, you can marry your duplicate and be a relative...


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## Creamsteak (Feb 11, 2003)

Janos Audron said:
			
		

> *well, you can marry your duplicate and be a relative... *



I don't think that's the intent of the spell though. However, I do think it would be OK to make a duplicate of yourself, transform it into a female, and impregnate it, then enchant that child. Only thing is, that's really really screwed up.


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## Victim (Feb 11, 2003)

And then you could keep creating Duplicates and having them use Legacy to add sorcerer levels to the kid.  Temper tantrums, but with Magma Burst!  

Look for a baby sitter with AMF.


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Feb 11, 2003)

Creamsteak, I'm still planning on playing the False Lover, although I just need to revise her stats a bit.  I already have a background and motivation prepared but still thinking about putting it in story form.  But basically, according to Creature Collection I the Unhallowed are very much afraid of the afterlife since they would suffer horrible punishment, more so than the curse they suffer in their unlives.  Kathryn would see the divine spark as a way to circumvent all of that.


Perhaps Janos, because that sort of relation doesn't count for the purposes of Eldritch Legacy.

As I have stated previously, a much more broken use of it, free of problems would be to use it with a Master of the Secret Sound, since they can use any 9th level spell once per day as a spell like ability as a full round action, with that, you can accomplish anything whether it be Ice Assassin (new WotC spell, wayyy broken), Eldritch Legacy, etc...

I have been contemplating several ways to counter Mord's Disjunction before as well, I did come up with a few tricks, but most of them require around a level 18ish character to work with.

Btw, I normally, strictly play only spellcasters, and infinite spell DCs are quite easy to accomplish, but they're pretty bland.  Btw, if anyone really wants a save, the Mysticism domain is the way to go, I don't plan on taking it, but if I did I'd have an extra +17 to all my saves.


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## Janos Audron (Feb 11, 2003)

Using taint, you can get your DCs into the high 80s without really thinking how you should do it.

And Sollir, a relative is a relative. I asked some people over at #malhavoc and they all agreed that your wife is your relative...

except you have to have sex with your wife to make the marriage legal (well, in their fantasy worlds anyway)...and there's not really enough time for that.

And the master of the secret sound idea is nice, but you can't really use it, since it requires two people...


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Feb 11, 2003)

Taint doesn't exist in most worlds

Chatroom people have their own opinions, I'm sure you wouldn't agree to several things that several would say.  

About the Master of the Secret Sound, there's a thing called Leadership , or another character as per the brother mages in this game.  Anyways, and there may be a good chance that I'm wrong, however (not according to wording, more spirit and I know how that's not really used nowadays) it *should be a blood relative.

Edit-Waiting on CS again to see if the False Lover option is still viable, let's leave the munchkin talk/boasting in another thread or something if you wish, its a bit bothersome here I'm sure.


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## Janos Audron (Feb 11, 2003)

> let's leave the munchkin talk/boasting in another thread or something if you wish, its a bit bothersome here I'm sure.




...making sure you have the last word?


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## The Forsaken One (Feb 11, 2003)

Munchkins are good for bumping. That's about it


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## Victim (Feb 11, 2003)

Wait, if the Sandals of the Tiger's Leap, are allowed, then I'd like reverse my earlier change to aquire that property.

EDIT: Sulli, were you attempting to include more spelling errors in this post than the previous one, to prove a point about bad spelling?


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## Gurdjieff (Feb 27, 2003)

Finally, I've been able to finish my character. He's not the uber-munchkinish thing you'll even come by, but I'm still new to the munching ;o. He's in the Rogues Gallery.


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## Janos Audron (Feb 28, 2003)

> _BoEM III_
> Quintelemental Blast
> Evocation
> Level: Wiz/Sor 5
> ...




I thought that since you had approved my character, you had also approved all of the spells...


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## Jemal (Feb 28, 2003)

hmm... so THAT's what Quintelemental blast does..
I been trying to get someone to post the stats for weeks and here you just up and post it one day. *L*
thanx dude.

hmmm.. that's a damn fine spell... obviously too easy for powergaming combos with "Induce vulnerability", but nevertheless..
Guess I know what 5th lvl spell I'll be taking next time I learn a new one.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 28, 2003)

> Wait, if the Sandals of the Tiger's Leap, are allowed, then I'd like reverse my earlier change to aquire that property.
> 
> EDIT: Sulli, were you attempting to include more spelling errors in this post than the previous one, to prove a point about bad spelling?




It depends on the context of the character to me.



			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> *hmm... so THAT's what Quintelemental blast does..
> I been trying to get someone to post the stats for weeks and here you just up and post it one day. *L*
> thanx dude.
> 
> ...




Well, that's if I allow it. Janos, I told you beforehand that I would need the information on your spells. If I don't know what they do, what can I do with them?

And as for Quintelemental blast, it seems obtusely overpowering, and its philosophy of ignoring game mechanics is just bastardly. However, since it does allow a save for half, it's not completely weird to me. I'll consider it for a bit before I pass any kind of verdict. 

How is this spell best described, and what's the context for your knowledge of it, since it's obviously exotic?


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## Janos Audron (Mar 1, 2003)

CS, could you tell me what parts I need to clarify? (In general, not Quint. Blast)


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## Victim (Mar 1, 2003)

Is my character okay?  Can I start posting on the IC thread?

Also, I've added stats for when Jaren uses his shuriken.


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## Gurdjieff (Mar 1, 2003)

Could you check my character as well CS? If he's okay I'll enter the forge.


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## Jemal (Mar 1, 2003)

hmm.. SO, is anybody going to be getting thrown in with Sniper+William?  hehe.


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Mar 12, 2003)

*Picks up his stick of prodding and annoying-ness +5, +7 vs. powergamers or munchkins, +9 vs. powergamers and munchkins*

Nice little critter in the Rogue's Gallery TFO, however, there are a few  nitpicks I have.

-Prices missing under equipment, and to have the Skittish Ring you need to have Skittish Nerves approved.
-Featwise I can't find Greater Multiattack at all in Masters of the Wild or Savage Species, mind telling me where to find it?  Sorry if I overlooked it.
-Quote under the Insectile Template in Savage Species, "Despite  having six arms, insectile creatures gain no additional attacks."
-Feral can only be applied to humanoid or monstrous humanoid not aberration or giant...although I'm not sure about how types were changed in 3.5e exactly.

Other than that things look mostly fine, nice mechanics on the Master Spell, should fit in with your background, just watch out against people with Iron Body or similar protections...



Edit-Btw, I think unless they changed Rend, you only get 1 rend no matter how much you attack, as long as you attack twice on the same creature, I believe this is how it is with the Girallon, as well as the Multiweapon Rend feat in the ELH.


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## The Forsaken One (Mar 12, 2003)

-Prices missing under equipment, and to have the Skittish Ring you need to have Skittish Nerves approved.
-Featwise I can't find Greater Multiattack at all in Masters of the Wild or Savage Species, mind telling me where to find it? Sorry if I overlooked it.

Just added it myself, if there is a greater multiweapon attack then why not a greater multi attack but if ithas to go it goes.

-Quote under the Insectile Template in Savage Species, "Despite having six arms, insectile creatures gain no additional attacks."

Humans get two arms and just 1 attack normally just like alot of creatures. Take feats and you can make attacks with other arms and legs. Feats do that to you, at least last time I looked 

-Feral can only be applied to humanoid or monstrous humanoid not aberration or giant...although I'm not sure about how types were changed in 3.5e exactly.

The example is an Insectile Ogre... (last time I looked that was a giant)

-Other than that things look mostly fine, nice mechanics on the Master Spell, should fit in with your background, just watch out against people with Iron Body or similar protections...

Ah well  Can't have it all.

-Edit-Btw, I think unless they changed Rend, you only get 1 rend no matter how much you attack, as long as you attack twice on the same creature, I believe this is how it is with the Girallon, as well as the Multiweapon Rend feat in the ELH.

Don't know, I went with the description in the SS where it just simply mensions that when you hit with 2 claws you gain another free rend attack.

Actually I was just making up a cool creature with logical feats that I would give it and when I looked at the result I was rather astonished. So it's purely by accident.


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## Kalanyr (Mar 12, 2003)

Can I join this game ? Or is it full the title suggests its full but the first post says otherwise.


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## The Forsaken One (Mar 12, 2003)

You can get in line to fill in spots when someone dies.


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## Kalanyr (Mar 13, 2003)

CS are you aware that the MM2 ECLs are lower than the ones from the ECL calculator and the ELH ones are lower still? And none of the 3 above sources are anything close to the ECLs/calculations for ECLs given in Savage Species ?


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## Creamsteak (Mar 13, 2003)

Kalanyr said:
			
		

> *CS are you aware that the MM2 ECLs are lower than the ones from the ECL calculator and the ELH ones are lower still? And none of the 3 above sources are anything close to the ECLs/calculations for ECLs given in Savage Species ? *




I'm not that worried about it.

Sorry guys, I'm still a bit bogged down. I'd love it if anyone wants to post some more role-playing or opinion material, but I'm not in a position where I have access to the internet for more than 15 minutes to a half hour at a time, with a couple exceptions each day.

I'll get an update in sometime this weekend methinks, and I realize it's moving far too slow to really be fun...


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