# Most powerful undead?



## Gorilla726 (Aug 17, 2004)

Hi. I'm working on a project of designing a kingdom/land mass in which almost everything (95%) is undead. But I'm having trouble deciding what sort of undead the "King" should be. What do you think is the most powerful, feared, and self-reliant undead type? Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

Gorilla


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## Morrus (Aug 17, 2004)

Either or Lich or a Death Knight, I'd imagine.  The former if you want lots of magic, the latter if you want him to be able to hit people really hard.


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## Necrohazard (Aug 17, 2004)

The hunefer is not the most powerful undead but if you gave it a few class levels or even advance it a good few HD, it could make up for it and it would be fun to DM over the time of a campaign. You can find them in the Epic Level Handbook pg 198, the great thing is the PCs could believe they are up against something els for a very long time. Oh, it is a CR 25 before doing anything with it.


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## Lord Pendragon (Aug 17, 2004)

Lich is probably the best way to go.  The fact that they are immortal so long as their phyactery remains undiscovered is an incredible advantage.


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## Darklone (Aug 17, 2004)

Partially more powerful than a lich might be a vampire... they are easier to destroy though. Sometimes. Depends how easy the DM makes it to find phylacteries.


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## Numion (Aug 17, 2004)

If you aren't dismissing Epic monsters an Atropal would be a good choice. Thats an aborted god that rose in undeath. Very 'cool' if you ask me. Atropal would also have some legimate claim to being a king (due to being a child of a god), versus some lich that has inevitably began his career as a mortal.


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## MonsterMash (Aug 17, 2004)

I'd probably use an advanced lich or demi-lich, though vampires can be cool as rulers of a realm, but vamps tend to want a lot of mortals around for blood, so if 95% of the population is undead there couldn't be too many vampires around.


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## vulcan_idic (Aug 17, 2004)

I'm planning an upcoming campaign were the pair of rulers (King and Queen) are a mated pair of undead dragons - a Dracolich and a Vampiric Dragon...  in this case they spend most of their time polymorphed into human(oid) shape and playing the parts of kind and queen with none of their subjects being any the wiser...  yet...


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## Li Shenron (Aug 17, 2004)

I also vote for the Lich. In my opinion it's still the best because it's generic enough so that you can make anything out of it (especiall since it doesn't have to be human), and it has the added flavor of someone who actually wanted to become undead and succeeded.

A Death Knight is ok, but usually it gives me the feeling of being a pawn rather than the mind behind a horde, and as such I tend to use them (or similar warrior undead) as the ones who lead the army while the true "boss" stays in the fortress.

A Vampire IMHO has the disadvantage of being too much defined. As pointed out already, what vampires do is hunting mortals for blood, which may railroad the story too much. Vampires need mortals, so if you have a realm totally made of undead, that's the last place a Vampire would like to live   unless they keep mortal cattle... Because of this, they are fantastic villains in adventures of intrigue, hunting and stealth, but I don't picture them very well as a king of an undead realm.

Other very powerful undead which are very supernatural (the Atropal, the Deathbringer, or an undead fiend/deity) they could be definitely fearful, but IMO they would do better as something otherwordly which is worshipped by the kingdom including the king - its first servitor. Eventually it may be the true overmind, but perhaps without physical access to the mortal world until some great scheme is accomplished, and here enters the king's job. Well, this is quite a typical idea after all, even Warcraft is similar...


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## Thanee (Aug 17, 2004)

A Pseudonatural Half-Fiend Paragon Gelatinuous Cube Lich Wizard? 

 But for a more serious reply, the Lich is a good choice from the standard selection of monsters. I'm not very familiar with the weirder ones out there, but I'm sure there are plenty options available.

  Bye
  Thanee


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## Greybar (Aug 17, 2004)

Lich is a great choice because it is based on a PC-like foundation.  Sshhh don't tell my players, but I've been working on the big baddy using Upper_Krusts's monster creation system which has some nice flexibility notes.  Anything you like for making a fun and flavorful PC can be used easily to make a Lich.

Lich from Cleric has a lot of oomph.  I'd suggest tailor-making a domain of Undeath or Necromancy to pick up some of the nice arcane necromancy spells.

Lich from Wizard is mean, since it converts one of the great weaknesses of bad-guy-wizards (the d4 hit die) into a relative strength (a d12).  In one of Blackdirge's recent articles, I noticed an item (from BoVD?) that lets an undead have an effect Constitution for the purposes of bonus hitpoints, which boosts that up even nicer.

john


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## Voadam (Aug 17, 2004)

Gorilla726 said:
			
		

> Hi. I'm working on a project of designing a kingdom/land mass in which almost everything (95%) is undead. But I'm having trouble deciding what sort of undead the "King" should be. What do you think is the most powerful, feared, and self-reliant undead type? Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
> 
> Gorilla




Self reliant would be a lich or mummy type.

Vampires, wights, and ghouls, all need to feed so they are less self reliant, liches and mummies can go for ages on nothing.

Incorporeal are tough but less able to rule directly because of their planar distance and problems interacting with the material world.

There are a ton of mummy templates, check out book of templates deluxe or the preview in my sig for GF Monsters for two that are independant and can be quite powerful templated mummies without the standard mummy rot.


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## Piratecat (Aug 17, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> A Pseudonatural Half-Fiend Paragon Gelatinuous Cube Lich Wizard?




_Jiggle jiggle jiggle_ fireball!


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## Navar (Aug 17, 2004)

I would vote for Dracolich.  I know that this is just a Dragon with the Lich template, but they FREAK me out.  I have never died to one or anything, but they are far and away the best villains out there.  They are a little cheesy, but wow are they rough.  If you can do the Eberron thing and not have alignment matter (or have some odd alignment games) A Silver Dracolich would be wrong.  For some reason I associate Liches with Cold and Lightning so Silver Dragon Lich would be ideal.  

My thoughts anyway.


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## The Serge (Aug 17, 2004)

Demilich.  All of the powers of a lich and then some.  Immune to virtually everything.  _Trap the soul_ at will.  Almost impossible to kill.


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## Teslacoil1138 (Aug 17, 2004)

I'd go for an Alhoon myself. Illithid liches are scary


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## Sejs (Aug 17, 2004)

> A Pseudonatural Half-Fiend Paragon Gelatinuous Cube Lich Wizard?




That's beautiful.


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## Shemeska (Aug 17, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> A Pseudonatural Half-Fiend Paragon Gelatinuous Cube Lich Wizard?




What, no wings or cleric levels? 

Priceless I tell ya.

But as for powerful undead... I'm partial to liches myself, though you can always go the way of completely unique undead that keeps your players guessing just what the hell it might be. I created an NPC in my own campaign based upon 'Count Magnus' in the story of the same name by M.R. James, and it's an ongoing question of just what he is, even if he's undead or not.


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## ruleslawyer (Aug 17, 2004)

The Serge said:
			
		

> Demilich.  All of the powers of a lich and then some.  Immune to virtually everything.  _Trap the soul_ at will.  Almost impossible to kill.



Hi Serge! 

First off, you need to update your sig to reflect the release of GoH Chapter 3  ; but...

A demilich doesn't seem appropriate to me for a few reasons. First, they're not really supposed to be so involved with the temporal world; a demilich _could_ rule legions of undead if it desired, but I always thought the point was that they wouldn't actually ever bother to do so. Second, I've never been comfortable with the idea that a "demi"lich is so much more powerful than a lich to begin with; it seems like the original 1e demilich has gone the way of the dodo in favor of the Ravenloft demilich, which, as I said, is a creature nearly uninvolved with the temporal world.

Anyway, cast my vote for the lich. And while we're at it, you may wish to look at the seriously buffed-up lich templates at Dicefreaks:

http://community.dicefreaks.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1446


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## Desdichado (Aug 17, 2004)

Numion said:
			
		

> If you aren't dismissing Epic monsters an Atropal would be a good choice.



Yup, that's my vote right there.  A half-fiendish, half-red dragon paragon 20th level wizard atropal.  

Barring that, Orcus is always a good choice...


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## MoogleEmpMog (Aug 17, 2004)

Mummies seem like the most 'civic-minded' undead, so they would be a good place to start.  

Personally, I would use a Hunefer (the god-mummies from the ELH), simply because of their awesome flavor.  This fiendish undead emperor spends the entire campaign trying to raise his divine self from the dead, then when he (invariably) suceeds, he discovers that his divine self find him a puny and feeble reminder of its death.

The hunefer then becomes so angry that he offers his campaign-long foes, the PCs, aid against the god he once was.


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## Knight Otu (Aug 17, 2004)

As for powerful, atropal and demilich are pretty much the biggest guys out there. Demiliches in 3e are more involved in the mortal world than the demiliches of 2e (they're mobile!), and atropals have that spark of divinity.

 Hunefers, as deity-mummies, also have that spark of divinity, and might be a good choice.

 Death Knights, as mentioned, have more of a pawn aspect, though a undead warrior king might be a death knight (or, if I may plug one of my creations, a slaughterwar master).

 Vampires might work, but in D&D, they are quite narrowly defined.

 Normal liches should work quite well. Maybe the king is a mystic theurge?


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## dren (Aug 17, 2004)

I would say a lich, but that's really been done to "death."

May I recommend an advanced nightwalker version of the nightshade; a gargantuan version can be up to 42 HD, with a wicked evil gaze, desecration, 
item crushing, summon undead & spells. Plus, since at a minimum it's 20 ft tall, you don't have to have people recognizing what it is, there could be rumours that this is a storm giant or titan undead. Plus, since it's already in the MM, you probably won't need to go out an buy a book.


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## LostSoul (Aug 17, 2004)

I would say something with a lot of class levels.

It imght be fun to have a vampire bad guy who runs a nice, "good" kingdom.  Everyone is fat and healthy, living in luxury, etc.  The monsters are taken care of (at night), and life is good.

Except that the king demands a number of children sent to be trained in his service every month or year or whatever.  Nobody sees those children again.  

But we don't like to think about that, because life is so good everywhere else.  We don't want to rock the boat.


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## Gorilla726 (Aug 17, 2004)

Thanks everyone. I think I'm coming up with a good idea... Hehehe. I'm thinking of having the King have turned himself into a Lich and slowly recruit the other undead in the area to add more to their ranks, however they may do it. There's going to be a decent amount of Vampires who keep humans as slaves/servants/cattle. And eventually the King is going to become a lot more powerful and the area which the undead populate is going to grow and grow. I need to think of a way the King (who was a Magic-User before he Lich-ed himself) can cast something along the lines of a permanent fog cloud over the entire area to make it darker all hours of the day. I also want to eventually have it such an amazing undead area that the Death Knights will come and base their operations out of it (if I remember correctly there are only twelve of them and I always thought they should work together, so here's my chance). Once I finish I'm going to run it as an entirely undead campaign, where even the players are undead. Any thoughts?

Gorilla


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## Pants (Aug 18, 2004)

LostSoul said:
			
		

> I would say something with a lot of class levels.
> 
> It imght be fun to have a vampire bad guy who runs a nice, "good" kingdom.  Everyone is fat and healthy, living in luxury, etc.  The monsters are taken care of (at night), and life is good.
> 
> ...



I need to stop pimping Eberron...

Pick up the Eberron Campaign Setting and read about the country of Karrnath.  A LE Vampire runs the country and while the country is under martial law, the people are happy and very patriotic.  The king only wants what's best for his people and keeps a small harem of very loyal subjects to 'feed' upon.  He never feeds from one person more than once during a week and never takes more than the person can handle.  He manages to keep his Vampirism hidden from the locales and only a select few know about it.

I love you Eberron.


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## Cheerful Coffin (Aug 18, 2004)

I say you suprise your crew. There could be a vampire and a greater vampire, a lich, but none of them are really "boss".

Turns out the boss is a kurge from Dungeon #87.


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## Lord Pendragon (Aug 18, 2004)

Pants said:
			
		

> A LE Vampire runs the country and while the country is under martial law, the people are happy and very patriotic.  The king only wants what's best for his people and keeps a small harem of very loyal subjects to 'feed' upon.  He never feeds from one person more than once during a week and never takes more than the person can handle.  He manages to keep his Vampirism hidden from the locales and only a select few know about it.



So what exactly makes this vampire evil?


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## LostSoul (Aug 18, 2004)

I read this short story once about this perfect city where everyone was happy and life was good.  But all of it was based on the fact that one person was abused by everyone.  Everyone knew about it and nobody talked about it.  They would spit at him when they walked by, kick him, whatever.

It was a pretty neat idea.  Kinda creepy.

I guess what makes that LE Vampire guy Evil (Eberron is cool!  I'll have to check it out) is that he kills people for his own pleasure.


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## Lord Pendragon (Aug 18, 2004)

LostSoul said:
			
		

> I guess what makes that LE Vampire guy Evil (Eberron is cool!  I'll have to check it out) is that he kills people for his own pleasure.



Does he, though?  According to the previous poster, he only feeds from willing sycophants, and never takes enough to kill them...


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## green slime (Aug 18, 2004)

Lots of similar ideas...

How about an advanced ghost (with sorcerer levels), with the _malevolence_ ability and has taken over the body of the king?

This way, the undead will not even appear undead at all...


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## Dark Jezter (Aug 18, 2004)

It's hard to top a demilich when you want epic level undead evilness.

You could also have a great red wyrm dracolich.


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## vulcan_idic (Aug 18, 2004)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> It's hard to top a demilich when you want epic level undead evilness.
> 
> You could also have a great red wyrm dracolich.




What about a demidracolich?


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## Incenjucar (Aug 18, 2004)

Liches.  Ghosts.  Mummies.  eh.

Make up something new.

Maybe some sort of undead that draws the flesh off of other beings to replenish itself and give it strength, while its 'true form' is basically blackened bones that ooze shadow-like ichor, while the undead's 'heart', a sparking black crystal, is molded on to its interior with steel and obsidian.  If seperated, the crystal tries to take over whomever holds it...

Maybe it can merge with other undead for a period of time, like some sort of living template.  Maybe it can merge with living creatures, but turns them in to undead in time, much like how the crystaline heart creates host bodies.

But a lich?  fft.


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## Raylis (Aug 18, 2004)

An undead campaign would be interesting, although what would the motivation for players be? Ghouls, Ghasts and the like only want to eat people, vampire PCs would need to constantly feed on the living, forcing them to leave the country or to hang around in the areas where 5% of the population are there for food, and most incorporal undead don't work well together, and zombie and skeletons are mindless. As for a King, instead of going with a Lich or a Vampire (classic undead) why not go for an advanced wight? They're fairly intelligent, don't need and sustinence and anybody can be made into one (thanks to the create spawn ability). Or for a different twist have the ruler of the nation not be undead at all, rather a c'onstruct with a special quality that whomever it slays arises as an undead...it could be continueing a dead Necromancer's work, following its last orders.

Just my two coppers


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## Incenjucar (Aug 18, 2004)

Necropoli (cities populated by undead) are actually very popular, as are undead characters (2e's Ravenloft had an entire hardcover devoted to the concept).  I've always liked the idea of Bob the Friendly Skeleton Warrior.  Which reminds me, they even had a CARTOON based on the idea of undead characters.. and a half-undead character...


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## PallidPatience (Aug 18, 2004)

Actually, I'm in an evil undead campaign right now that's really little different from a normal evil campaign (excepting, of course, the special weaknesses of those of us who ARE undead). We're using Bone and Corpse from the BoVD, and one of us is heading for Lich, so it's working well. Our motivation is to empty the city of the Good empire's power, and to control it for ourselves. So it's not that bad. I wouldn't think that playing a Ghoul, Ghast, Wight, or Vampire would be that much harder (excepting the weakness to sunlight, in the latter case).

Liches are classic, Vampires are better for "that eccentric noble" or the like, Wights are nice... An advanced or classed Ghast would make a cool king, as would a Nightwalker. What about a Shadow, Spectre, or Ghost?


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## Calico_Jack73 (Aug 18, 2004)

Gotta go with the Lich.  For added fluff to your NPC you ought to check out Van Rickten's Guide to the Lich.


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## Gorilla726 (Aug 18, 2004)

PallidPatience said:
			
		

> Actually, I'm in an evil undead campaign right now that's really little different from a normal evil campaign (excepting, of course, the special weaknesses of those of us who ARE undead). We're using Bone and Corpse from the BoVD, and one of us is heading for Lich, so it's working well. Our motivation is to empty the city of the Good empire's power, and to control it for ourselves. So it's not that bad. I wouldn't think that playing a Ghoul, Ghast, Wight, or Vampire would be that much harder (excepting the weakness to sunlight, in the latter case).
> 
> Liches are classic, Vampires are better for "that eccentric noble" or the like, Wights are nice... An advanced or classed Ghast would make a cool king, as would a Nightwalker. What about a Shadow, Spectre, or Ghost?




Hey, do you think that you could send me some more information on your campaign? I'm trying to get any ideas from anywhere I can.  I would really appreciate it. My e-mail adderess is deathfromabove@musician.org Thanks!

Gorilla


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## Pants (Aug 18, 2004)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> So what exactly makes this vampire evil?



He's masquerading as his own grandson, whom I believe he 'replaced.'  He also did some nasty things in order to become a vampire.



			
				LostSoul said:
			
		

> I read this short story once about this perfect city where everyone was happy and life was good.  But all of it was based on the fact that one person was abused by everyone.  Everyone knew about it and nobody talked about it.  They would spit at him when they walked by, kick him, whatever.
> 
> It was a pretty neat idea.  Kinda creepy.



'Those Who Walk Away from Omelas' by Ursula LeGuin was the name of the story, I believe.


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## Mystery Man (Aug 18, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Barring that, Orcus is always a good choice...



Dammit! _I_ was gonna say that!


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## Sir Elton (Aug 18, 2004)

Mystery Man said:
			
		

> Dammit! _I_ was gonna say that!



 Oooh!  The same thoughts!    Orcus is a great idea in part of this thread.  But I think the most powerful undead would have to be . . . the Liche Demigod of Greyhawk.  Vecna.


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## VirgilCaine (Aug 18, 2004)

Morrus said:
			
		

> Either or Lich or a Death Knight, I'd imagine.  The former if you want lots of magic, the latter if you want him to be able to hit people really hard.




Yeah, that 1hp/round just for _looking_ at someone. Ow.



> But I think the most powerful undead would have to be . . . the Liche Demigod of Greyhawk. Vecna.




Hail Vecna.


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## Lord Pendragon (Aug 18, 2004)

Sir Elton said:
			
		

> Oooh!  The same thoughts!    Orcus is a great idea in part of this thread.  But I think the most powerful undead would have to be . . . the Liche Demigod of Greyhawk.  Vecna.



I'm not so sure.  What about the Lich-Queen of the Githyanki?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 19, 2004)

Well, Vecna actually is a god, whereas the Lich-Queen just thinks she is.

Vecna could take her, one on one. But she does have an entire plane's worth of githyanki servitors. It'd be a nasty match, if it ever happened. But Vecna's much more subtle than that... The Courting of the Lich-Queen, anyone?

Demiurge out.


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## Krypter (Aug 19, 2004)

Well, since we're talking Orcus here, why not Tenebrous, the horrible, shadowy, un-God version of Orcus that appeared in the Planescape adventure, Dead Gods? He made undead out of *demons*!


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## Pants (Aug 19, 2004)

Maybe not the most powerful, but definitely high on the cool factor. 

There's a Pit Fiend Lich in Book of Fiends.


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## Desdichado (Aug 19, 2004)

Pants said:
			
		

> Maybe not the most powerful, but definitely high on the cool factor.
> 
> There's a Pit Fiend Lich in Book of Fiends.



Well, if you're going that way, for my money the Iron Lich from _Monsternomicon_ probably has the highest cool factor of any undead I know.


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