# working on a sorcerer build



## harikus (Jul 12, 2013)

I know for a fact that I wanted my first Pathfinder to be a Sorcerer.  I always enjoyed the idea of a Sorcerer since I first saw it in Baldur's Gate 2.  I have narrowed my selection to some different ideas.  Not necessarily in the order I mentioned them.
1.  Ifrit Wishcrafter (Flame Elemental Bloodline)  I wanted to do this mostly because the flavor appealed to me.  Frankly I don't know what sorta campaign we are doing or how far we will go.  My question is this, since Concentration is basically a roll d20+caster level+primary state...does it make sense to go ahead and just max out at 20 CHA?  And the extra CHA you get from taking Fire Elemental Bloodline, is it only considered for spells or can it also work in Concentration?  

2.  Drow Sorcerer (Arcane Bloodline)  I have always loved the Drow since I first read the Dark Elf Trilogy.  I doubt our GM will allow me to be a Drow Noble, unless of course we are doing a Drow specific campaign.  One of the things I liked about the Drow is that I can take a. Ambitious Schemer so I can take Diplomacy as a class skill and gain the +2 bonus.  Does this sound wise?  The skill seems to good to be true on a Sorcerer as a class skill.  b.  If we are on the surface a lot, I could take Surface Infiltrator, this drops dark vision and light blindness and gains me low-light vision instead.  c.  The Favored Class Option Drow get for Sorcerer lets me add one spell known from Sorcerer spell list...but it must have evil curse and pain descriptor.  My question on this is, are these spells any good or am I being limited really badly?  I figure if its limiting I still have Arcane to make up for it with its pure power.

3.  And the least favorable, but most likely choice if we are doing a high powered campaign...Human Sorcerer (Arcane Bloodline).  Now the human favored class option, can I EVER pick level 9 spells with it?  Or is it pretty much stuck at picking level 8 spells at its highest?  

4.  Also might as well ask this, Is the Sylvan bloodline very useful?  I understand they get boost DC to enchantment or compulsion?  Did these somehow become cooler in Pathfinder where they seemed less so in 3.5?


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## Empirate (Jul 12, 2013)

First of all, Sorcerers are awesome, and they're even more awesome in PF. I envy you (always gotta DM)! To answer your questions:


1. Good option all in all, Ifrit with the Fire bloodline make a good Sorcerer race. However, I'd answer "no" to your question: "Fire Affinity: Ifrit sorcerers with the elemental (fire)  bloodline treat their Charisma score as 2 points higher *for all sorcerer  spells and class abilities*. Ifrit spellcasters with the Fire domain use  their domain powers and spells at +1 caster level." As far as I know, rolling concentration checks is not a class ability. I wouldn't be too worried though, just max Cha and you ought to be good - maxing Cha ought always to be your first priority as a Sorcerer anyway. The key is good tactics. If you can manage to stay out of melee, you'll have little trouble casting at will, unless your DM is constantly harrassing you by way of environmental conditions. After a few levels, with maxed out Cha, your concentration checks will look much less daunting.


2. Drow is a weak choice from an optimization standpoint: a penalty to Con hurts lots, the spell-likes aren't in any way meaningful to a full caster, spell resistance can actually be detrimental if your cleric buddy is trying to buff/heal you, and all the rest the race has to offer does little for you, with the exception of the Cha bonus (but that can be had in a lot of places). The favored class option is horrible (just compare to the human FC option), worse than even the bonus skillpoint IMO. That said, here goes:

2a. Perception is always a useful skill to get a bonus to. However, getting a skill to go with Cha instead of (likely dumped) Wis, AND getting it as a class skill, is very good. Bluff is already a class skill, so Diplomacy is the obvious choice, and it's quite the powerful skill. A lot depends on your DM, though, since many DMs don't play Diplomacy by the rules (which are, frankly, stupid anyway). But yes, Abitious Schemer would be very useful for you all in all.

2b. Surface Infiltrator is a must IMO. In quite a few situations, low-light vision is superior to darkvision anyway, as it doesn't have a range limit. Light blindness really sucks.

2c. I already answered this. But to reiterate: the bonus spells option is really, really bad. You'll be hard pressed to find two spells of each level that have the Evil, Pain, or Curse descriptors: those descriptors are rare, AND most spells that have them are weak. If you play a Drow, pick the bonus HP. You'll desperately need them with your Con penalty!


3. Human Sorcerer with Arcane Bloodline is probably among the most powerful choices you could make, and still allows for lots of flexibility where personality is concerned (whereas Ifrit/Fire Bloodline or Drow limit your scope somewhat). The favored class option of picking bonus spells known is a good one if you can swallow a few caveats. First, you'll have to wait until 4th level to gain any really useful spells from this; for the first three levels, you only gain bonus cantrips known, and you can really do without those. Second, you'll never get to pick bonus 9th level spells known, as you anticipated correctly. Additional 8th level spells known is plenty powerful, though! There are a lot of excellent spells in 8th level. Note that without this bonus, you're limited to 3 8th level spells known at 20th level, the FC option lets you pick up to 6!

4. Sylvan bloodline is pretty good IMO. However, the sylvan bloodline actually _replaces _your bloodline arcana for the fey bloodline (+2 DC for compulsion spells) with an Animal Companion. It also replaces Laughing Touch, which is no great loss. Note that Animal Companions are pretty good, but that the fey bloodline (and its associated sylvan bloodline) adds quite a few compulsion spells to your spells known list. Compulsion spells can be really good, given some creativity and a bit of social interaction, and a +2 save DC boost is hard to come by. So this is quite the good bloodline arcana ability. Dominate Person alone can make this worthwhile. However, Animal Companions probably provide more options for you, especially in combat.


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## Ramaster (Jul 12, 2013)

Empirate said:


> First of all, Sorcerers are awesome, and they're even more awesome in PF. I envy you (always gotta DM)! To answer your questions:
> 
> 
> 1. Good option all in all, Ifrit with the Fire bloodline make a good Sorcerer race. However, I'd answer "no" to your question: "Fire Affinity: Ifrit sorcerers with the elemental (fire) bloodline treat their Charisma score as 2 points higher *for all sorcerer spells and class abilities*. Ifrit spellcasters with the Fire domain use their domain powers and spells at +1 caster level." As far as I know, rolling concentration checks is not a class ability. I wouldn't be too worried though, just max Cha and you ought to be good - maxing Cha ought always to be your first priority as a Sorcerer anyway. The key is good tactics. If you can manage to stay out of melee, you'll have little trouble casting at will, unless your DM is constantly harrassing you by way of environmental conditions. After a few levels, with maxed out Cha, your concentration checks will look much less daunting.
> ...




I agree with all this.

Human with arcane bloodline is mechanically the better choice.

If the pointbuy is 20 or 25 then I would suggest that you go for that CHA 20. Otherwise, it will leave you with very little points to buff you CON and DEX.

a 20 pointbuy human sorcerer would look something like this (racial adjustment take into consideration):

STR 07   - 07 - -4pts
DEX 12   - 12 - 02pts
CON 14   - 14 - 05pts
INT 10   - 10 - 00pts
WIS 10   - 10 - 00pts
CHA 18+2 - 20 - 17pts

That DEX 12 can be safely move to INT or WIS, depending on your preference (I would advice to keep it on DEX, though)

With 25 points, bump that 12 to 14 and increase INT or WIS (I would advice WIS) to a 12.

If the pointbuy is lower, then the starting CHA 20 is not worth it, move it to 16 and redistribute the rest of the points.

For the first three levels, you should pick additional HP with your fav. class bonus instead of one more cantrip. Cantrips aren't worth it, 4 is more than enough.

Spell choice makes or breaks a sorcerer, and the correct management of metamagic feats on higher levels will be essential to your blasting potential. There is a sorcerer guide on the SRD somewhere that has great advice on spell choice and metamagic, try to look it up.


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## harikus (Jul 12, 2013)

I think tat makes sense, all of it.  I may just not worry about drow for pathfinder.  If our campaign I not high powered I may go with the ifrit wishcrafter.  I think I could get some laughs out of it many times a session.  Lol.  Although it might be funny to drag a random jerk around who tried to killme.  Lol. I like


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## harikus (Jul 12, 2013)

If it looks like I can be the face or leader, would it make more sense t try for 12 int?  Then take umd spellcraft and bluff?


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## Empirate (Jul 13, 2013)

Sorcerers in general have the least incentive of all base classes to invest in skills: not only do they get a low amount of skillpoints, they also have few good class skills, and Int is a stat most would rather dump or keep middling at best (seeing how Cha, Con and Dex might all be priorities).

That said, if you're a human, you could go for some skills, like the ones you mentioned. In that case, 12 Int would net you 4 skillpoints per level, which is actually enough to warrant thinking about skillpoint spending. If you're playing an Ifrit, I simply wouldn't bother. Int 10 would be enough for me in this case, just spending points on Spellcraft and UMD. Bluff and Fly must remain afterthoughts in this case, for when you feel you have a point or two to spare not maxing Spellcraft. Getting at least 1 rank in either is important for the class skill bonus, but more than that is probably not warranted.

Note that some spells can substitute for skills. Being a face can be done with a little help from Charm Person, for example.



Further note for an advanced skill-based concept: dipping a level of Oracle can actually be pretty nice for Sorcerers if you can stand the delayed spellcasting progression. Pick the Lore mystery for Sidestep Secret (dumping Dex in the process) and all Knowledges as class skills; pick up Extra Revelation for Focused Trance and/or Lorekeeper. That will set you up to be quite the know-it-all without spending many points on Knowledge skills. Human and Int 12+ is still recommended with this, but with Sidestep Secret, you can dump Dex more or less carefree and put some more points in Int.

From an optimization standpoint, this is probably worse than pure Sorcerer, but it's a neat concept: a Sorcerer born with just a little touch of the divine, which takes the form of supernatural whispers, visions, and hunches. Instead of learning from books, s/he learns from being in touch with the inner self/the spirits/god, and augments her/his magic with sudden insight into secrets and hidden things.


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## Ramaster (Jul 14, 2013)

Yes! The oracle trick is a great one, I have seen many a character using it to dump DEX (and you get a bunch of 1st lvl spells in the process).

But the missing arcane spellcaster level really hurts. You will, in effect, by 2 full levels behind a full level wizard.


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## harikus (Jul 14, 2013)

I can see your point.  If I was a Ifrit Wishcrafter I simply would have to sacrifice to much for my other stats.  It might be more beneficial to jack my initiative up a bit.  With improved initiative, the wildfire heart , and 16 dex (14 dex+2 racial) and a select familiar I would have 15 initiative before I even rolled.  The oracle thing sounds interesting but I would be afraid of not taking the straight 20 .  hmmm

I talked to my group mates and he wanted to do a half elf cleric and be our face.  So I really wouldn't be that pressed.  The build he is doing will set him up with bluff and diplomacy.  

The human arcane sorcerer is a little less confusing for my first pathfinder game so I am leaning more toward it.  Most of my team will be totally new and I am afraid they wouldn't get my Wishcrafter concept enough to take advantage of its humor and madness.  
The GM is likely to settle on either two setups.
25 point buy or
4d6 six times, drop the lowest of each set.  Allow the lowest of the 6 to be dropped and turned into an 18.  (he said he will only allow 3 tries if he does this).  
If we do 25 point buy; my Human Arcane will probably do this, tell me what you think.  I am kinda nervous dropping str so low in the case of stat drain/damage though.

7   str
14 dex
14 con
12 int
10 wis
20 cha


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## tangleknot (Jul 14, 2013)

In case you guys didn't know If you want a bunch of extra spells check out the "Favored Class options" for Human Sorcerers.

*Sorcerer*: Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This  spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the  sorcerer can cast.

You won't be getting that extra hit point/skill point per level but extra known spells is awesome!


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## Empirate (Jul 14, 2013)

Umm... read the OP? It was in there? And has been commented on upthread?


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## ggeilman (Jul 15, 2013)

IMHO, it is not worth 17 points to start with a 20 stat in anything much less Ch. You would be stuck with a 7 Str for the life of the character for little bonus. Carry your money and food and you are encumbered. Drop it down 2 points, get the 18 Ch and a 14 Dex and Con. I would go draconic bloodline myself. And no, no 9th level spells with the favored class option unless the campaign goes into 10th level spells.


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## Empirate (Jul 15, 2013)

I think ability score placement depends a lot on what level you start, and how long the campaign is expected to last. For example, if you start at 4th level and don't expect to see 8th, it'd be ideal to leave your top score odd (e.g., Cha 19 [17 base + 2 racial]) at creation, then use the +1 ability score bonus at 4th level to bump it up. If you start at 1st level and expect to go to the double digits, it's probably better to do as [MENTION=6705347]ggeilman[/MENTION] suggests - although getting Cha as high as possible is important if you use a lot of spells that allow for a save.


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## harikus (Jul 15, 2013)

ggeilman said:


> I would go draconic bloodline myself.




What draws you to the draconic bloodline?  I like this:
1.  I could gain perception skill, which is cool.  I guess?  A lot of people say its great but I haven't done pathfinder enough to know how good it is.  
2.  But the bonus spells they get seem redundant to me.  Maybe I could use my level ups to replace the previous dragon form spells that I won't be using?  If my GM won't let me that makes me sad.
3.  Natural Armor bonus seems cool.  Squishy caster can always use more armor.
4.  Wings!  I love wings.  Sounds so cool.  Free fly spell basically right, without having to use spells per day?  
5.  Dragon Immunity at capstone is bloody awesome!  
6.  Finally the two parts that I hate.  Level 1 = claw.  Level 9 = Dragon breath.  I don't care about these two at all.  Since I don't care about these, would Tattooed Sorcerer powers be good for replacing these two?  a.  I can replace the claws, which I would never use, for a familiar that I can wear on my body whenever I want it to as ITS move action .  b.  I can replace the breath attack, which I don't think much of, and in the process I can take one of the spells I know and make it a spell-like ability.  I could officially take Time Stop as a tattoo spell-like ability later.  How cool is that? I know that I can only use the tattoo spell once a day and the dragon breath up to three times a day, but I just feel like my ?d6 breath attack would end up looking a lot more like a ?d6/2 .  

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/cor...ines/bloodlines-from-paizo/draconic-bloodline
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/cor...paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/tattooed-sorcerer


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## harikus (Jul 15, 2013)

I also don't know much about epic pathfinder levels and what to expect.  So I wondered about this:
Is if someone wanted to do a Dragon themed character.  Since I am apparently missing any info on epic progression for sorcerer, what if you took Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer up to say 20?  Then you took the Prestige Class Dragon Disciple up to 8.  Just for some of the sideline bonuses?


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## ggeilman (Jul 15, 2013)

Don't underestimate those claws, especially at low levels. At times it has kept our sorcerers alive! Besides it allows an AOO since you always have a weapon. It amazes me that players concentrate more on planning out their characters to level 20 than they do about how they are going to make it to level 5! Those low levels are the hardest to survive. If you don't make it through them.... In some games your chance of making it to level 5 are less than 50%.


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## amethal (Jul 16, 2013)

ggeilman said:


> IMHO, it is not worth 17 points to start with a 20 stat in anything much less Ch. You would be stuck with a 7 Str for the life of the character for little bonus. Carry your money and food and you are encumbered.



Not everyone worries too much about encumbrance rules - especially for gold pieces - so this might not be a drawback in some games. If it is, ask the fighter to carry your stuff, or invest in some Mule Cords.

A 20 in your casting stat gives you more spells per day, which amounts to more fun, so I'd always recommend it (assuming the available points are not too low).


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## ggeilman (Jul 16, 2013)

RAW though they count and also that is -2 to damage if you get into melee. To each his own I guess. We encourage a much more balanced character in our games.


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## harikus (Jul 17, 2013)

ggeilman said:


> Don't underestimate those claws, especially at low levels. At times it has kept our sorcerers alive! Besides it allows an AOO since you always have a weapon. It amazes me that players concentrate more on planning out their characters to level 20 than they do about how they are going to make it to level 5! Those low levels are the hardest to survive. If you don't make it through them.... In some games your chance of making it to level 5 are less than 50%.




If I were to equip a spiked gauntlet, could that help me avoid the AOO?  Sorcerers can equip simple weapons, and this way I don't have to be disarmed, unless we are talking about dismemberment from the help or shoulder.  

But what about Draconic would you say you prefer to Arcane Human and Ifrit Wishcrafter?  Is it more of a style or is it the Bloodline boost to energy of your type?


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## amethal (Jul 17, 2013)

ggeilman said:


> RAW though they count and also that is -2 to damage if you get into melee. To each his own I guess. We encourage a much more balanced character in our games.



Yeah, people draw the line in different places, I guess.

One of the players in my Pathfinder game turned up with a 20 point buy elf wizard with stats (after racial adjustments) of Str 7 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 20 Wis 7 Cha 7

I'd never seen anyone do that before, and to my mind that was taking it too far. I still accepted the character into the game, but next camapaign I am going to have to set some limits. 

Among other things, it isn't much fun as a DM to role-play encounters with a PC with Wis 7 and Cha 7. The player is trying to role-play those stats fairly, so the character usually comes across as rude, reckless and insensitive - not much fun to interact with!


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## Empirate (Jul 17, 2013)

Sounds like somebody was trying to build Vaarsuvius. What's wrong with that?


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## N'raac (Jul 17, 2013)

amethal said:


> Yeah, people draw the line in different places, I guess.
> 
> One of the players in my Pathfinder game turned up with a 20 point buy elf wizard with stats (after racial adjustments) of Str 7 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 20 Wis 7 Cha 7
> 
> ...




To me, this is fine so long as he accepts his limitations.  His Will saves aren't great for a Wizard (+0 at L1).  The encumbrance rules should be enforced (a mule is handy - but you don't have those objects readily available), and he sucks on ice in melee.  And he has difficulty with interactions.  He should not be allowed to huddle behind the party face - people should talk to HIM sometimes.  For example, perhaps persuading the Baron requires both a successful interaction roll AND success in a specific knowledge skill.  Or perhaps you must succeed with the Knowledge skill to know the issue to discuss, but your Knowledge skill gets a bonus/penalty of +1 for every 2 points your diplomacy (or Bluff, or Intimidate) roll succeeds/fails by.  There's a reason litigators are good public speakers, not just skilled researchers.  You may have ben technically right, but your presentation did not get that across to the listener - or you just ticked him off, so he's not listening to how "right" you are.


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## ggeilman (Jul 17, 2013)

amethal said:


> Yeah, people draw the line in different places, I guess.
> 
> One of the players in my Pathfinder game turned up with a 20 point buy elf wizard with stats (after racial adjustments) of Str 7 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 20 Wis 7 Cha 7
> 
> ...




Sounds like a dwarf fighter I have in my game called Toast, 7 INT, 6 CHR even though I told him no initial stat below 10. So far he has been ok with it and it has been a good role playing experience for him. We will see what happens when he gets above 6-7th level though when the skill points start to matter in that game. Rude and insensitive, now I sometimes resemble that remark!  I try and keep character stats to at least 8 in my games and don't recommend any below 10. As for the spike gauntlet, he uses a cestus which works even better. High Str and he uses a d4 weapon, go figure.


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