# So, I need a Cat whacked....



## Vraille Darkfang (Oct 14, 2005)

So, now I have to kill a cat.

As a cat-lover it pains me to say this, but I've been left no choice.

When we moved into our new house at the beginning of the summer, I was finally able to set out bird-feeders again (something I haven't been able to do in over 10 years).

Things were going great.  Had family of cardinals, Nuthatches, Titmice, Woodpeckers.  Lots of interesting things going on so I could relax and watch them out my back window.

Then the feathers started appearing.   A black and orange cat showed up & is constantly stalking mine (and the neighbors) bird feeders.

The Cardinals? Dead.  Nuthatches? Dead.  Woodpeckers? Dead.  The cat kills them all.  He even jumps up & knocks over the feeders.  Oh, he's also using our flower gardens as a litter box.  I'm now just leading them to their doom.

Now come the part that P***** me off.

The cat has an owner.  Some people who moved into the rental house behind us.  It's their cat.  So, I go over to talk to her about her cat.  

I explain her cat is killing all the birds at both me & my neighbors yard.  I explain it has almost broken one of my feeders.  I explain it's leaving little cat present in out flower beds.

Her response?  "It's a cat, I can't so ANYTHING about it being a cat.  It just does what it does I CAN'T be held responsible for what MY cat does."  

The woman refuses to take responsibility for her animal.  Thinks she shouldn't have to.  And they now have a mixed-breed puppy.  I can already tell its going to be a very large dog.  This woman literally can not conceive that she could in any way be responsible for what her creature does.  She also can not conceive of anything she could to keep it under control.

I mentioned keeping it inside.  She looked at me like I was an idiot & told me no way would she keep that animal from living 'like god intended', plus it would just spray in the house.  That's right, un-neutered cat running around.  (I doubt its shots are up to date either).

The woman, if she had 3-4 kids is where the term 'white-trash' originated from.  She is a second-generation individual from a lower socio-economic class.  No education, no real skills, not even good grooming/communication habits.  Presently in a mutually destructive relationship with some guy.  I see this often enough that I view it with equal parts pity and disgust.  Pity about the poor situation she was born into & disgust as I've seen so many people somehow manage to actively fight & work themselves out of that situation.  Talking to her for any length of time, I find depressing. I'm not knocking poor people, I'm not blasting those without degrees, I've just seen too many people like her who are as much villain as victim of their situation.  It's sad, really.  Again, I'm not trying to knock a group of people, more to use a widely known (if _usually _ inaccurate) stereotype that represents this woman to a frightening degree.  

I should point out that we live in a rural area.  But we live in the county seat (pop 8,000).  In fact, we live within walking distance of downtown.  Our area is not rural enough for 'barn cats'.  In fact her house (a run-down older brick home) was empty when we moved in as the previous tenant gone behind in his rent, so decided to leave.  Luckily, we have a nice, big privacy fence separating our yards & do to weird quirks of geography/real estate, their house is not considered part of the 'neighborhood' (All praise to lord of property values).  The cat has nothing to hunt but our birds.

P.S. I don't buy that whole cats that don't go outside are missing out on something.  They are.  They are missing out on Skunks (#1 on my list), rabies, ticks, fleas, mites, ringworm, worms, diseases, other cats, automobiles, the list goes on for quite some time).  I've had indoor only cats.  They were more than very happy, they were also very safe & very healthy.

The long story is, she refuses to do a thing about the cat.  Leaving it up to me.  The cat must _disappear_ or I have to stop feeding the birds.  As it is my backyard, I figure I have more of a right to feed birds than some lady does to allow her cat to destroy our flower beds & kill songbirds.  Which, by the way is illegal.  Native songbirds are protected under law.  If that lady sat out on her back porch and killed as many birds as her cat has, she'd be arrested (usually you just get a fine, but that high of number would lead to an arrest).  As she won't take responsibility for her animal, I have too.


My options:

Option 1.  Explain rationally to its owner the problems the cat is causing & try to find a way to reach an agreement where the cat could be semi-controlled.  This one failed horribly.  She wouldn't even consider keeping the cat in when I'm at work & only letting it out when I'd be able to keep it away from the birds.  (as it turns out the cat is semi-feral, why she even brought the cat when she moved is beyond me, just another example of irresponsible pet ownership).

Option 2.  Pray to Lord Ford that one of his Divine Agents may smash the feline flat.  As we live right next to a rather busy road, this is almost an assurance.  The only question is when?

Option 3.  Set out a nice bowl of Anti-Freeze.  Cats love anti-freeze.

Option 4.  It IS hunting season & there are gun & ammo specials at Bass Pro.  But, shooting inside the city limits is illegal.

Option 5.  have someone else do the dirty work.  Get a live bait trap & a can of Tuna.  Our city has a animal control regulation.  All Cats & dogs must have a registration tag.  You must also be able to provide proof of current shots.  If I can catch it, I can call Animal Control & they'll take it away (or call the owner & ask why the animal is running around free & if it's shots are up to date), then just play dumb when they ask me if I know who owns it ("Gee, I don't know, it just is constantly stalking me & my neighbor's bird feeders").  Given what I know of this woman, if I catch it, its going to the pound. Then, the cat will die, I have no doubt. As even if the woman goes to the pound to claim her animal, they won't release it until it's shots are up to date (she ain't paying).  It won't get adopted because it was never properly socialized when a kitten, so It's mean.  In fact after the 5 or 6 day wait for an owner to come forward, they'll put it down as it's too wild to even think of giving up for adoption.

I think I'll try option 5.

Rant over I feel better.

If you are unable/unwilling to take responsibility for the training/welfare/ownership of a pet, do the pet a favor, do yourself a favor, do those around you a favor; DON'T get one.

I hate to do this to an animal, but I really don't see what other choice I've been given.


----------



## Dark Jezter (Oct 14, 2005)

Wasn't there an episode of Seinfeld where Elaine wanted to hire a hitman to get rid of an annoying cat? 

There may be another alternative for you.  A few years ago, there was a big, mean tomcat that would always come over to our property and fight with our pet cats.  Using a pellet gun, I started taking shots at it every time it came over to our property (boy, that thing _jumped_ when it got hit).  After a little while, it learned to stay away from my house.


----------



## diaglo (Oct 14, 2005)

does it have its rabies tag?

if not. turn it into animal control.

they will take care of your problem right quick.


----------



## Arravis (Oct 14, 2005)

In my opinion it sounds like you've thought it through well. I would consider calling your local animal services or vet and explaining your situation and asking for their advice.


----------



## kenobi65 (Oct 14, 2005)

I'd concur with Arravis.

Pellet gun sounds fun, but a slingshot or wrist-rocket might be a lower-tech way to have the same effect.


----------



## Vraille Darkfang (Oct 14, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> does it have its rabies tag?
> 
> if not. turn it into animal control.
> 
> they will take care of your problem right quick.




I'm more worried about _reprisals_.

Or, having her come over at scream at about what a BLEEP, BLEEP, BLEEPING, BLEEP I am for having her kitty taken away.

It's not like I didn't TRY to reason with her.  It's not like the cat is even legal.  Or nice.

Just the fact I did something to HER cat.  After all while I'M not worth diddley squat, SHE'S very important.  Self-centered in this case.  Trying to live close to her will suck if she realizes that I'm the one responsible for her cat's _dissappearnce_ The possibility that she, could, in any way, be, remotely to blame as well won't occur to her (Say, socializing the cat when it was a kitten, taking it to the vet for its shots, get a collar & registration tag; those sort of things).

I mean, I won't have to put up with her forever.  (They are renting that house, I betting even money they won't be able to make it thorugh their entire lease).

In a year, we might even look into buying that place, just so we can have better parking (and turn the house into a garage).  Assuming we're able to up our income 25% (which might actually happen).


----------



## Tharian (Oct 14, 2005)

Didn't you say that the birds are protected?  I think that in combination with some stories I've seen of late where the owner has been held accountable for the pet's actions (for instance: dog maulings), I think you have a very clear case to take to either the local authorities or the city council.  I would recommend getting pictures of the incidencts, when possible, to present as proof of the activities.

Another option might be to consider installation of an electric fence hidden by the large privacy fence you already have in place.  That way the cat might be deterred from hunting in your yard.


----------



## Vraille Darkfang (Oct 14, 2005)

Tharian said:
			
		

> Didn't you say that the birds are protected?  I think that in combination with some stories I've seen of late where the owner has been held accountable for the pet's actions (for instance: dog maulings), I think you have a very clear case to take to either the local authorities or the city council.  I would recommend getting pictures of the incidencts, when possible, to present as proof of the activities.





I'm in the legal right.  I know that (and have had it confirmed by some local officals I know).

I can have Animal Control take it away tomorrow.  I just need to be _discreet _ about it.

As I've said, this is a woman who doesn't give a darn about anything she does that harms other people, but should YOU inconvience her....  Then you get bit**** at.  Plus she might get more petty and vindictive than that.

I need to be able to tell her, "Why, no, I don't know where your cat went.  But now that you mention it, I haven't had a bird killed in a few days.  Can't say as I'm all that dissapointed, but you'll be the first to know if he shows up back here."

I hate to stoop to deception.  But, that's the only way to deal with this woman.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 14, 2005)

*Ahem*

Lawyer here- don't do TOO much to the cat- it can get YOU in trouble for animal cruelty.

You could just take the cat and keep it in your house until you can give it to someone else who will be a more responsible owner.

After all, cats DO run off, or get hit in the street- that IS what cats who "live as God intended" occasionally do.  Its not like she'll know the diff.

"No, lady, I haven't seen your cat in days.  Maybe it ran away."

Essentially, this is what my cousin just did to a puppy that was being kept on a porch (in 95deg heat) with no shade, water, or food.  In the week she has had it, its doubled its weight.


----------



## jester47 (Oct 14, 2005)

Do nothing to harm the animal.  Do nothing outside of the law.  Report the cat to animal control and hopefully it doesn't have a rabies tag.  Cat will be gone. 

If she even thinks to ask you after she has not seen the cat that she does not really care about for a few days, tell her the whole truth.  Say that you noticed that the cat did not have a rabies tag and you realised that it was a danger to children.  Since she would not take responsibility for the actions of the cat, you realised that you would have to and so out of interest for the rest of your neighbors you called animal control.  

If she threatens you in any way, report it to the police.  If she carries out any repisal, report it to the police.  Do not be nice, but do not be ugly.  Do not threaten her ever.  

Do you really think that things will remain civil with her?  How long do you think it is going to take before it is somthing else that with her attitude will lead her to start seeing you as the enemy anyways?  If you are a person of faith, pray for her.  She has probably never really known any kind of tough love, and this is a great chance to give it. Who knows, you might help her to become a better person.


----------



## Umbran (Oct 14, 2005)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> Lawyer here- don't do TOO much to the cat- it can get YOU in trouble for animal cruelty.
> 
> You could just take the cat and keep it in your house until you can give it to someone else who will be a more responsible owner.




*Ahem*

Mr. Lawyer, sir, that cat is _owned_ by the woman, and the aggrieved person knows it.  You cannot legally take it into your own custody under these conditions.

Unless the owner is clearly abusing the animal (and letting a cat out doesn't count) legally and permanently divesting her of the animal can be difficult.

If the cat isn't vaccinated for rabies, the animal control people can take it, yes.  However, if she goes to animal control and finds they have it, typically they'll simply force her to get the beastie vaccinated and wear its tags, and give it back to her.  Failing to vaccinate is not cause to permanently take the animal.


----------



## Mystery Man (Oct 14, 2005)

heheh "Titmice" heheh

My nieghbor has a cat she lets roam. I don't mind at all because it kills all the mice before they can get into my house. If it's in my yard its no big deal and if it does become a bother I just let my dog out. He's 30 pounds of solid brittany spaniel muscle, his ultra-hyper exhuberance thinking he has a playmate sends the cat running for the hills.   

Get a big mean dog, no more cat.


----------



## Henry (Oct 14, 2005)

Options 3 & 4 are right out, but I'm assuming you're just venting, there. 

Option 5 is still best bet. Animal control doesn't usually report who called about a stray cat to be picked up, so I doubt the woman even would find out you called.

The worst news is that this family will probably just keep getting animals, and more cats, at that. The good news is it sounds like they could care less about spaying, neitering, or shots, so it's not really cruel to be reporting these "strays." Heck, she treats them like that anyway, if what you say is correct.

Diaglo and you both have the best, and most legal, approach.


----------



## Bront (Oct 14, 2005)

Our cat is an indoor/Outdoor cat, but she's a wuss.  She mostly just likes to wander around our yard, and chase bunnies.  She actualy caught one once and tried to bring it inside, but it ran away after she set it down and got distracted.  She's declawed, spayed, only eats dried food (she won't touch anything but about 3 or 4 brands), and is very social and playfull.

I feel sorry for you, but I think you're right, option 5 is best, but I wouldn't forget who owns her.  Just call animal control and tell them everything, including why you felt you had to catch it.  If it hasn't had it's shots, it's a potential danger to others, so you should do something.  And simply ask to remain anonamous if they have to talk to your neighbor.


----------



## Bihor (Oct 14, 2005)

Not that I have any thing with the cat wacking, did you suggest a bell on the colar of the cat.

This would give a huge malus to is move silently roll, and keep the owner happy.

If she won't do this nail the cat with a screewdriver on her door.


----------



## Vraille Darkfang (Oct 14, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> Options 3 & 4 are right out, but I'm assuming you're just venting, there.
> 
> Option 5 is still best bet. Animal control doesn't usually report who called about a stray cat to be picked up, so I doubt the woman even would find out you called.
> 
> ...




I know I can't legally kill the cat.  I could run it over if it happened to be in the middle of the road.  But, legally, I can't touch it (inside city limits).

I can trap it, however.  The thing is so wild it flies off at the mere apperance of a human being.  It, won't even tolerate its owner picking it up.  (I think she had to bring it here in a box).  If I trap it (live cage), I can then call Animal Control to pick it up.


----------



## mythusmage (Oct 15, 2005)

I get the impression the cat has not been fixed. It has also not been socialized. More's the pity. Methinks the lady in question is an irresponsible pet owner, and might be legally liable in that area. Would be a shame to have it (legally) killed, but sometimes you have no real choice.

Were it within my power I would purchase the cat, yet it neutered or spayed, and provide it with a home as an indoor cat. What you do is entirely up to you.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 15, 2005)

> Mr. Lawyer, sir, that cat is owned by the woman, and the aggrieved person knows it. You cannot legally take it into your own custody under these conditions.




I know that...but there are caveats:

1)  Depending on the municipality, you may be allowed to confiscate the cat as a private citizen acting in accord with local laws about animal control- in effect, doing a citizen's kitty arrest.  Check your local statutes.

2)  You can initiate a nuisance lawsuit - it is, after all, on the aggrieved's property.  A nuisance lawsuit is when you sue someone for creating a nuisance that deprives you of the quiet enjoyment of your property, usually by having something they own intrude onto your grounds.  Usually, its things like plants, smells, or even having a house that is an eyesore.  Repeated pet invasions may or may not qualify- but I'm betting the cardinal corpses and feline feces he leaves behind probably do.

3)  If nothing else, he can catch the kitty and bring it to the pound.  100% legal.

And you'd still be at less risk of legal action, and the action in question would be a minor misdemeanor if you were caught, as opposed to possibly getting pegged as a proto-serial killer and the major fines that follow an animal abuse charge that would follow a dead kitty.


----------



## Dougal DeKree (Oct 15, 2005)

Vraille, your surely are aware that whatever makes the cat disappear, be it the animal service or an accident - the owner will *know* that you are responsible for it (even if you are not!) *because* you tried to reason with her. Be prepared for that...if you are the only one who tried to talk to her about her cat, that is.


----------



## Aeric (Oct 15, 2005)

Keep the cat, shoot the woman.

In a perfect world.... ::sighs::


----------



## Vraille Darkfang (Oct 15, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Mr. Lawyer, sir, that cat is _owned_ by the woman, and the aggrieved person knows it.  You cannot legally take it into your own custody under these conditions.




Actually, legally, she doesn't own the cat. Where I live, that's why you have to get a registration tag.  If the cat isn't registered, it isn't owned (as far as the city is concerened).  They actually warn people about it (esp cat owners), that unless you get the cat registered, it's just a stray living near you.

So, legally, the cat is ownerless.  While I can't go onto her property to trap it.  Or even my next-door neighbor's, if it's on my property, I am allowed to trap it.

Animal Control then shows up, looks to see if its got a registration tag.  No tag, they take it away.  (If it was tame or neutered, they might ask who owns it, but they catch enough half-wild strays, they don't ask about them).

So, I am making sure of what I'm legally allowed to do.  I can't kill the cat, but I can trap it (when it's on my property).  Since it isn't registered it's on the same level as vermin such as raccoons, possums, and other small mammels.  They come, they take it away.


----------



## Vraille Darkfang (Oct 15, 2005)

Dougal DeKree said:
			
		

> Vraille, your surely are aware that whatever makes the cat disappear, be it the animal service or an accident - the owner will *know* that you are responsible for it (even if you are not!) *because* you tried to reason with her. Be prepared for that...if you are the only one who tried to talk to her about her cat, that is.




Well, she lets it run all over and we live right next to a busy road.  (And I heard a Great Horned Owl last night).  Cats that are allowed to run around vanish.  That's the way things are.

I figure I've agood shot she might not even CARE if it disappears.  She hasn't really given a darn enough about the cat's health/well-being/socialization up to now.

It's not that she CARES about the cat.  It's that someone could ever do anything to inconveince her.  It not about the cat, its about power.  She doesn't care about how she affects others, yet thinks others should never affect her.

I'm guessing 50/50 she doesn't even look for the cat & just gets another one.


----------



## Xath (Oct 15, 2005)

I'd bet that it will take her a few days to even notice that it's gone.  Just count how long between when the cat is trapped and when she confronts you.  Then tell her that if it took her that long to notice, she truely is an irresponsable cat owner.


----------



## Rel (Oct 15, 2005)

Just remember that if you're a 1st level Commoner, this cat has a better than average chance of killing you in a fair fight.  Make sure you get the Surprise Round.


----------



## Xath (Oct 15, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Just remember that if you're a 1st level Commoner, this cat has a better than average chance of killing you in a fair fight.  Make sure you get the Surprise Round.




Especially if it has rabies.


----------



## Umbran (Oct 15, 2005)

Dougal DeKree said:
			
		

> Vraille, your surely are aware that whatever makes the cat disappear, be it the animal service or an accident - the owner will *know* that you are responsible for it (even if you are not!) *because* you tried to reason with her. Be prepared for that...if you are the only one who tried to talk to her about her cat, that is.




*nod*.  And note that you can be taken into civil court for something that is, technically, legal. 

Not to mention - you are about to embark on a course of action that may turn a woman who's behavior is a nuisance into an next-door-enemy.  The cat will be gone, but you have to live next to her for years...


----------



## Darthjaye (Oct 15, 2005)

If the cat isn't wearing tags turn it in as a stray.  If the birds are protected turn it in to animal control and let them deal with her.  She's most likely ignorant but she will still suspect you no matter what so your gonna have to face this.  You complained, so ergo anything that happens to the cat, you will be suspect number one in her beady little white trash eyes.  If she retaliates it will be obvious and she more than likely won't be smart enough to cover up her actions.  You could find out who her landlord is and just complain to him continously until he/she acts and deals with the lady.  Landlords hate having constant complaints about their renters from other people being brought up to them.  Work the complaint/ animal control route only if you have to and with the degree warranted is my advice.  Kidnapping the cat not so good an idea........


----------



## Umbran (Oct 16, 2005)

Darthjaye said:
			
		

> You complained, so ergo anything that happens to the cat, you will be suspect number one in her beady little white trash eyes.




You know what?  This is below us.

She has some opinions that are troublesome.  But she's still a person, a human being.  And if you were here, you'd get repremanded for that comment.  Her not being here doesn't make it okay to be that insulting of a person you've never met.

If we, collectively are gong to treat her like that, then we don't deserve to have the problem solved, because we are small people with fragile egos who have to bring other people down so we can feel big and powerful and proper.

She's a human being, and it is quite possible she loves that cat as much as any of us love our pets.  Her ignorance and unwillingness to take personal responsibility doesn't eliminate that.

Think about that for a sec - we're talking about taking away a beloved pet because it is inconvenient, and the owner seems difficult to deal with.  I dunno about you, but I've had pets stolen before, and it isnt' fun.  Think about that as you consider your course of action. What woudl happen if someone made sure your dog or cat went away and never returned.


----------



## jaerdaph (Oct 16, 2005)

I hate birds. They are dirty and carry disease. Feeding them brings the rats, skunks and other vermin too.

Go Kitty!



Seriously though, I hope you find an answer to your problem. I suggest you speak with the local animal shelter or the ASPCA for advice.


----------



## Vraille Darkfang (Oct 16, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> She has some opinions that are troublesome.  But she's still a person, a human being.  And if you were here, you'd get repremanded for that comment.  Her not being here doesn't make it okay to be that insulting of a person you've never met.
> 
> If we, collectively are gong to treat her like that, then we don't deserve to have the problem solved, because we are small people with fragile egos who have to bring other people down so we can feel big and powerful and proper.
> 
> ...




You know what I REALLY want?

I want to go up to another human being.  I want to tell them their animal is ruining a insetment I made that I enjoy (birdfeeders), and ruining my flower beds (by using it as a litter box).

I then want that person to go, "Oh, I'm sorry that MY (AS IN I OWN IT) animal is causing such a problem.  Let's try to find a way to work this out."

That's what I want.  I want to have a reasonable conversation with another human being where we can come to an agreeable comprimise.

That's all I want.  That's not going to happen.


----------



## Tarrasque Wrangler (Oct 16, 2005)

Cat Traps: http://www.bestnest.com/bestnest/pc_cats_dogs.asp?src=googleaws&kw=cat_trap

They cost a few bucks, but they're worth it.  Once your cat troubles are over it makes a good rat trap too.


----------



## Darkness (Oct 16, 2005)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Cat Traps: http://www.bestnest.com/bestnest/pc_cats_dogs.asp?src=googleaws&kw=cat_trap
> 
> They cost a few bucks, but they're worth it.  Once your cat troubles are over it makes a good rat trap too.



Maybe trap it (when it enters your property again) and then take it back to its owner (or call her to pick it up) and tell her that if you catch the cat on your property again, you'll call animal control (and do just that).
I admit this approach might be _too_ reasonable, considering the circumstances, but there's a slight chance it isn't and suggesting it can't hurt, so...


----------



## Teemu (Oct 16, 2005)

Bront said:
			
		

> She's declawed, spayed, *only eats dried food* (she won't touch anything but about 3 or 4 brands), and is very social and playfull.



This is potentially dangerous: she might develop bladder stones.


----------



## Darthjaye (Oct 16, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> You know what?  This is below us.
> 
> She has some opinions that are troublesome.  But she's still a person, a human being.  And if you were here, you'd get repremanded for that comment.  Her not being here doesn't make it okay to be that insulting of a person you've never met.
> 
> ...




Yes, but her responses to his request tell me she cares very little to even try to remedy the situation.  Think about that for a moment.  Your trying to live your life on your own property and you make a request for her to try and do somethig about HER animal, and she blows it off without so much as I will see what I can do.  She apparently can't even attempt to be a good neighbor.  Would you want this person living next to you acting this way?  I'm gonna guess no.  I should have put quotations around the white trash part as a inference had already been made previous to my post about her possibly involvement.  But since you neither know her nor live near her, I'm not sure why you jump to defend her knowing what we know of her responses.  While I welcome being reprimanded for genuine wrongdoing I politely disagree with your response in this regard.

Also you may be over psycho-analyzing this a bit.  As to answering your last question, I would have made an attempt to help out and at least made the other party feel as though I would at least make an effort to help in some way.  It's a neighborly thing to do.  If I'm so brazen as to blow someone off in this manner, then I would deserve to have it taken away.  You show responsibility when you own a pet.  Part of that is owning up to things of this nature.  If it's too much, you find the animal a good home with someone who can.  Simple enough.


----------



## Wormwood (Oct 16, 2005)

I cannot think of any solution that doesn't require a shovel.

I'm very sorry.


----------



## BlackSilver (Oct 16, 2005)

*Do no harm you do not wish to receive*

I believe in karma, and I believe that if you harm this cat that you will find karmic pay back is very hard to pay.

Find another way to deal with the cat, pepper your potting soil so that the cat will not use your flowerbed for his activity.  Trap the cat in a live trap, and return the cat to the owner, explaining to her that you want to do harm to the cat, because of what he (the cat) is doing on your property, but you are torn about how to handle it.

Cats will be cats, they do not understand human boarders, though they might understand (this is a bit of a disgusting thought) a human “animalistic” marking of a boarder (if you understand what I mean?).  Though I am unsure it will work, it might be worth trying.

I truly believe that you should find a none harmful way to deal with this problem as it will come back to haunt you and the karmic pay back is three fold on something like this.

Please, do not harm the cat, just accept that it is a cat and that it is a free spirit.


----------



## Tewligan (Oct 16, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Just remember that if you're a 1st level Commoner, this cat has a better than average chance of killing you in a fair fight.  Make sure you get the Surprise Round.



On the other hand, if you DO get the surprise round and kill it, you'll be able to take its stuff.


----------



## Jamdin (Oct 16, 2005)

If the cat is such a big problem, then calling animal control would be the best course of action. Otherwise, check out these tips


----------



## Umbran (Oct 17, 2005)

Teemu said:
			
		

> This is potentially dangerous: she might develop bladder stones.




My wife's a veterniarian, and I asked for her $0.02 on this one:

_"Dry cat food does not cause bladder stones.  It's a bit complicated, actually.  A cat or dog's metabolism is what will ultimately cause bladder stones, unless you're feeding a particularly abnormal and poorly-balanced diet.  If an animal is not prone to developing bladder stones, it's pretty safe to feed them either dry or canned food, as long as it's a high-quality, balanced diet.

If an animal is prone to developing bladder stones, I usually do recommend feeding canned food, but that's not because dry food makes stones worse - it's because canned food contains more water, and one of the treatments for urinary problems is increasing the amount of water in the animal's diet.  It's equally important, though, to get them on a diet that will properly adjust the urine chemistry to make stone formation less likely - and that can be done with either canned or dry food.

Okay, thank you for listening to me babble - I'll let you get back to your previous conversation, now. 
-your friendly neighborhood gamer-geek-veterinarian"_


----------



## Umbran (Oct 17, 2005)

Darthjaye said:
			
		

> Yes, but her responses to his request tell me she cares very little to even try to remedy the situation.




Yes, but insulting and belittling and dehumanizing are not constructive.

If nothing else, you ought to be trying to keep to the moral high ground.  Treat her badly, and you're no better than she is.  Two wrongs don't make a right, and all that.



> But since you neither know her nor live near her, I'm not sure why you jump to defend her knowing what we know of her responses.




I don't defend her so much as I expect better from my compatriots here on these boards.  We so quickly forget the Golden Rule, and that it applies even more to those we dislike than the ones we like.

And, no offense intended to Vraille, but we're on the end of the telephone game.  We only have a description of her responses, from the aggrieved party.  We're a bit distant to be casting stones.  Humans tend to be kinda nasty when allowed anonymity, and I hope for better here.



> Also you may be over psycho-analyzing this a bit.




I'm not pycho-analyzing anything.  I'm asking folks to treat their fellow human beings decently, even if they are annoying.  Even Vraille notes a bit of pity for the lady.  Shouldn't the rest of us?



> Simple enough.




"Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you," is also simple enough.  Would you prefer that someone take your pet away before they'd really run through all other reasonable options?


----------



## Darthjaye (Oct 17, 2005)

To be honest I would prefer that people like this (the alleged perpetrator) be more responsible.  Your right, I should not repeat things in quoting that aren't polite at best.  My bad on that.  Duly schooled.  I do wish people like this would show a more neighborly "I'll try" Approach.  I don't know Vraille, but I can assume he's being honest and tried to work with her and failed cause he's getting no respect or attempt of action from his neighbor.   I myself have a very similar situation except mine is a dog (Pit Bull) that they (my neighbor) has let run around in front of their house and down my driveway, that has no leash on or real attention placed it when it is doing so.  We have complained to them continuiosly (it has approached my Mom recently within the last three days twice and growled and taken an angry disposition until my mom yelled at it's owner who then called it back) and even given them warning as sonn as two days ago that the police would be called if they did not handle it.  Then today, this dog comes over to our garage and corners my mom.  I have told them as far back as three months ago to handle this and they didn't obviously.  What kills me is that, in Vraille's case, while the cat is not the extreme, he points out they also have a puppy which they would ultimately give the same treament when it grows to become a larger dog.  The dog I have problems with has chased several repairmen and a postman away too.  What if in ignoring one of their animals (Vraille's neighbor's dog in the future, or my neighbor's) that animal does attack someone?  What if it's my three year old boy?  Should I accept that as nature's way?  Because they are blase enough about it?  The problem with letting an animal "do it's thing" when it's harmful is that it's a sign that the owner knows no way to control or respect.  

I hope that gives you an idea of why I find this inaction by his neighbor ultimately disturbing and offensive.


----------



## Darthjaye (Oct 17, 2005)

Oh and if that's not a good enough reason then I'm right your wrong neener neener neener!!!!


----------



## Uzumaki (Oct 17, 2005)

Bront said:
			
		

> Our cat is an indoor/Outdoor cat, but she's a wuss.  She's declawed, spayed, only eats dried food (she won't touch anything but about 3 or 4 brands), and is very social and playfull.




Declawed outside cat? Bad combination. I hope you watch her closely when she's outside, because even a rat can hurt her badly.

All I can say that hasn't been said before, is try to deal with the cat as kindly as possible, even though it's a monster. After all, it's just doing what it's supposed to as a predator. I don't know anything about the law in your area, but try to let Animal Control deal with as much of it as possible.


----------



## Tinner (Oct 17, 2005)

You do have another option that doesn't involve harming the cat.
And after all, the cat is just doing what cats do.

The best way to be forever rid of an annoying cat is right at your fingertips.
Odds are it's right on the side of the house, and you haven't realized it.

It's called a GARDEN HOSE!

This is a cat right?
There are few things cats hate as much as a face full of water.
You soak Toonces down a few times, and he will quickly learn that there is nothing good in your yard.
It's a little more work on your part, but it doesn't hurt the cat, and as such shouldn't upset the neighbor. Heck, the cat will probably smell better too! Odds are it needs a bath!

Or else you could try calling The Pet Professional


----------



## Bront (Oct 17, 2005)

Teemu said:
			
		

> This is potentially dangerous: she might develop bladder stones.



I've been told by a vet that dry food is better, and will help her live longer due to less wear on her digestive system.


----------



## Vraille Darkfang (Oct 17, 2005)

BlackSilver said:
			
		

> I believe in karma, and I believe that if you harm this cat that you will find karmic pay back is very hard to pay.




Maybe if I just kill it.

But, I'm more sure I'm a karmic agent of payback in this case.

If I trap the cat, turn it over to the proper authorities, who will then tell her (if the ask who it belongs too, I'll tell them), take the cat over & tell her: "Either show us the regestration & shots record or we take the cat.  If you want it, pay for the registration & shots."

The bad Karma is the woman who is being an irresponsible pet owner.  Not just because it's causing me problems.  Their house is right next to a busy road, whcih the cat crosses from time to time.  If I wait long enough, Lord Ford or Karmic Chrysler will take care of this problem for me.

So, no.  I'm not going to just kill the cat.  The town's got laws that were put into place for just this very reason.  People letting animals roam freely, without concern for damage/trouble they can cause.

We spent this summer wathcing a pair of Cardinals raise 2 families at our feeders.  At least 4 of those birds were Killed by that cat.  The nuthatches & woodpeckers that used to scour our trees for bugs & parasites no longer come, at least 1 nuthatch & 2 woodpeckers were killed by the cat.  The chickadees no longer even come.

If there is bad karma going around, I'm already on the recieving end of it (delivered by 1 person).  Which, if she was willing to woork with me, I WOULDN'T have to EVEN CONSIDER doing something about her cat.  Simple as that.  I don't want the cat to come to any harm.  But, it's not my animal.  It's hers.  So it's not my responsibility to control/feed/care after, its hers.

Think of this as equilibrium.

PS.  People!  Take responsibility for your pets!  If you don't want the responsibilities that come with pet ownership, don't get one!


----------



## Vraille Darkfang (Oct 17, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> You know what?  This is below us.




Let me explain the "White Trash Stereotype" I used.

I used it as the best descriptor of her that I could manage with as few words as possible.  I'm not saying she IS 'White Trash', I'm saying the sterotype about a 'White Trash' person's Economic/Social/Educational level is spot on when it comes to her.  

I've grown up in rural Missouri.  I now live in Boonville, MO.  Which is Rural Southern MO.  In fact, during the Civil War, Boonville was named the Southern Capital of Missouri (Mo being split 50/50 between North/South).  I've been around poeple like her all my life.  While not getting into a long off-topic rant.  I will simply say I've known hundreds of 'white trash' (or people who fit the scocio/economic profile).  Most are nice people.  Heck in my games I've got one 'White Trash' in my games (freely admits it, prefers Redneck).

However, 'White Trash' has negative connotations.  I did not mean to impress the negative connotaions onto her (though some of them apply, from what I've dealt with).

So, my use of the term "White Trash"  was to evoke an idea of her background, not to be used as a personal attack upon her.

So, if my use of this term has led you to any impressions of her beyond that, re-think them.  

If I had to describe her again.  I'd say a middle-aged woman of lower income, poor education, and raised in that some environment, probablly expects here kids to be in that environment too.  Cycle of poverty is the term (although she's above that, at present).

Oh, if people say she CAN'T afford to get here cat registered/shots/neutered etc.  She could, IF she'd cut back on her smoking.  Still have yet to see her without a cigarette.

In closing, let me repeat.  I've been around people like her all my life.  Some are very good friends of mine.  I've seen some lift themselves out of their situation.  I've seen others try and fail.  I've seen others denied the oppurtunity.  I've seen others screw it up.  But, mostly, I've seen a sort of acceptance of Fate that saddens me.  Part of my greivance with the woman is more do to her acceptence that her life 'is that way it should be'.

A good deal of this, people outside of rural, agricultural areas probablly won't understand this.  I'd recommend looking up the early life of former President Jimmy Carter to get a feel for it.

Or:

"You know, I might have been born just plain white trash, But Fancy was my name."

Reba McEntire


----------



## Vraille Darkfang (Oct 17, 2005)

Jamdin said:
			
		

> If the cat is such a big problem, then calling animal control would be the best course of action. Otherwise, check out these tips





Thanks alot for the link.

I'll try some of these tips.

I may have found a powerful ally.  My next door neighbor has a lot more feeders than me set out.  I'm sure she's noticed that fewer birds are coming around.  Next time I see her, I'll let her know what's killing our birds.

She work's at the Casino in town.  Well, actually she works for the Missouri Gaming Commission that's at the Casino.  She's also a member of the highway patrol.

She's got a gun  

Really, she knows most of the local law enforcement people.  This is a small twon after all.  She can probablly set me up with the Animal Control & let me know everything that I need to do, if it comes down to the birds or the cat.

Things are looking up.  Unless you are the cat.  I still wish I could just work something out with the cat's owner.

I'll try some of the anti-cat trick people have posted.  But those might be stop-gap, at best.


----------



## Vraille Darkfang (Oct 17, 2005)

Tinner said:
			
		

> It's called a GARDEN HOSE!




Yeah, if I have noting else to do but sit in ambush all day.  The one time I was watering plants & came around the corner & saw the cat, it ran away so fast it nearly brained itself on the fence.

I get the feeling it's been hosed/shot at/thrown at more than a few times.  Merely the sight of me or my wife causes it to take off at full speed.  That doesn't stop it from coming back however.

As cats go, it's pretty smart.  Which makes it all the harder to keep it from killing everything with wings in my backyard.

I still feel bad about this.  I've grown up my entire life with cats (except now, as my wife is allergic).  I don't WANT to harm/confiscate the cat, but I'm not going to give up on my birdfeeding/watching because some woman refuses to follow the laws as it concerns her animal.


----------



## BlackSilver (Oct 17, 2005)

*excuse the hijack, please*

Karma doesn’t care who started it.

It is about what you consciously do.  Say you trap this cat and turn it over to the authorities, and the woman pays the toll she has to pay in order to get her beloved cat back.  Say she does that, why?  Because she cares about her cat.  She takes the cat inside and you never hear from it or hear again.

Now she holds a grudge against you, but never does anything against you.

Karma demands you pay that back three found.  Later on you get a dog (your wife is allergic to cats and say she wants a dog).  Now you take the dog to training classes, and spend all of your free time with the dog- because as it turns out you’re a dog person (who’d have thought).  

One day your dog gets free, a homeowner spots the dog doing a dog thing in his front yard.  The homeowner catches your dog and takes him in for a few days considering his options.  You of course are concerned for your friend, your child (lot of pet owners consider their animals to be their children), and start searching all over for him.  You make fliers and take a day off, go to the local shelters, check with everyone that you can think of, even the guy whom has your dog, but he has not seen him (so he says).

After a couple days of searching you resign your dog to the depths of death and give up.  The homeowner turns the dog over to animal control.  He took the dog’s collar, so whom do they call.  Now right here Karma gives you a break, a moment in time, and one of the people working the shelter remembers you, she calls and you show up to get your dog.

You have lost a day or two of work, you have to pay for new licenses for your dog because the collar is gone and you can’t find your paper work, and you had to make all those fliers.  To mention nothing of the worrying you did.

It is part of your Karmic payback.

The woman is having to pay her Karma back on her own.  You should think nothing to do with her payments, you are just part of the story that she must endure to pay it.  Its part of a test for you, the Gods of Karma are waiting to see what you do to decide how much trouble they want you to endure in the future.

I know you are very angry, we all get that way (Lord knows I have flipped out on these boards in anger).  The trick is to figure out the test, and pass it without harming someone else, without getting a Karmic debt.

FWIW the woman could just be scum and you could just have to endure her lack of interest in a cat she hates.  I do not know, but what would you rather acquire Karmic debt or the malice of someone like her?

Good luck with this and all things in life, it seems to me that you are going to need it.


----------



## Rel (Oct 17, 2005)

Could it not be that Vraile is the "Agent of Karma" who is visiting threefold death back upon the cat for the birds that it has killed?  And if Karma is such a done-deal, then how come careless-cat-owner hasn't had a camel take a crap on her lawn or something?

It all sounds kinda fishy to me.

I'm all for trying to avoid harming animals where possible (unless they are yummy) but you gotta draw the line somewhere.  I had a couple of woodpeckers that decided they were going to peck holes in my house.  I tried to just shoo those bastards away but they kept coming back.  So I shot them.  Problem solved.

Now maybe I could have tried to hang tin foil all over my house or buy paint that tastes bad in the hopes that I could ward them off.  But I've got stuff to do in life besides take time consuming measures to assure the continued existence of every lower life form that wants to hurt my property.  If they want to peck holes in somebody's house they'd better go to some hippy druid's place.  

'Cause I'm armed and I don't believe in Karma.


----------



## Vraille Darkfang (Oct 17, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> I'm all for trying to avoid harming animals where possible (unless they are yummy) but you gotta draw the line somewhere.  I had a couple of woodpeckers that decided they were going to peck holes in my house.  I tried to just shoo those bastards away but they kept coming back.  So I shot them.  Problem solved.




Umm, that could be very bad.

Woodpeckers targeting your house that is.

We live in a brick house & we have (or had since the cat moved in) woodpeckers pecking at the house.  In the spring they were 'drumming' on marking out their territory.  This is obvious as they are being as loud as possible (they REALLY love metal poles for this), and it only lasts few weeks.  The other time they peck on the brick is to eat insects crawling over the bricks.

If woodpeckers start makign holes in your wood, they do it for 2 reasons.

1.  Food.  They hear/sense bugs in the wood & are goin' in after it.  Termites are the worse bugs they could be drillin' for.  I'd check it out for insect life.

2. Homes.  Woodpeckers (most breeds) make their homes by hollowing out spaces in dead trees.  They CAN mistake a wooden home for a dead tree....  But pressure-treated/stained/ properly preserved wood usually sets them off so they won't touch it.  They usually only go for houses only if the wood is rotted or for some strange reason, regular wood was used with no preservative treatment what-so-ever.

So, if you see them pecking, be sure to check the area they're exploring.


----------



## mythusmage (Oct 17, 2005)

Blacksilver, karma is no excuse for not taking action. The woman is being irresponsible. She either learns responsibility, or she will be removed from society. And penal institutions are karmically proactive.

When you are done wrong you have the responsibility to deal with it. Not some character up in the sky, or some sort of reciprocity, you. You don't take action to end the abuse you become party to it, an accessory to the fact. By refusing to take action you become as guilty as the original perpetrator.

How you treat people who have, at the worst, done you no harm is one thing. But when somebody does harm to you and yours, that is another. When someone hurts you, you stop them, and you use whatever means necessary. No one has the right to harm someone who is not harming them. Vraille is not harming the woman, but by her neglect of the cat she is causing harm to Vraille. At present her behavior cannot be addressed directly, but the cat can be removed from its current environment. Hopefully to be put in a caring home, but if that is not possible and the animal cannot be rehabilitated, put to death because it cannot fit into a human world.

This can be a hard world and sometimes you have to do hard things. There's no way around it. By refusing to do what's necessary because it might rebound on you, you make the situation much worse. It's what's adult responsibility is all about. A woman refuses to be responsible, and so lives around her are degraded and small lives are ended. It is time she learned her behavior will not be tolerated. So long as you live as part of a society you will live by the rules, or you won't be a part of society. That is one of the hard things you learn to do when you become an adult.

Oh, and Umbran, there are those who are called white trash, and those who are white trash. There are those who work hard to get out of the gutter, and those who like it there. Help the former as much as you are able, but let the latter be. For they are a touchy people and their resentment will taint all around them. You can't help everybody. You try to raise all out of the muck you wind up raising none. Reserve your efforts for those who will accept the help, and let the rest be. You do better when you treat each as an individual, instead of as a unit in a faceless mass.


----------



## Rel (Oct 17, 2005)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> So, if you see them pecking, be sure to check the area they're exploring.




Fear not.  Since that time the house has been repainted and they don't seem to be returning.  No sign of termites.


----------



## Vraille Darkfang (Oct 17, 2005)

BlackSilver said:
			
		

> Karma doesn’t care who started it.
> 
> It is about what you consciously do.  Say you trap this cat and turn it over to the authorities, and the woman pays the toll she has to pay in order to get her beloved cat back.  Say she does that, why?  Because she cares about her cat.  She takes the cat inside and you never hear from it or hear again.
> 
> Karma demands you pay that back three found.




So I just wait around for Karma to do my work for me?

I'm not just going out and killing her cat & hiding the body.

I'm having an issue with her cat.  Its harming my property, destroying one of my hobbies & making a general nuisance of itself.  I did the RIGHT thing.  I went to the woman & asked how we could come to a solution about her cat.  She basically told me "It's a cat.  It does what a cat does.  I can't be responsible for what my cat does."  Which is false.  If the cat gets rabies & attacks a kid down the street, the cops charge more than the cat with a crime.

I've tried the nice thing.  She basically told me "I'm not going to help you deal with my cat."  The other half to that is "You'll have to deal with it yourself."  

So I am.  Animal Control is the correct step.  I might try the tricks others have posted, but that's not the 'correct' step.  The correct step is to inform the proper authorties about the cat.  Cats have to have a registration tag in our town, and there is a reason for it (unwanted strays are jsut another form of vermin).  The cat needs to have its shots up to date, it needs to be spayed/nuetered unless you PLAN to breed it (this cat's a mutt), for the general welfare of the entiere community, the cat needs to have all these shots/vacinations.  To allow it to run around, until something bad happens to it/others; well that could just be my 'Bad Karma' from something else I did, couldn't it?


Sure, I can wait for Karma to solve my problems for me.  I prefer to work to solve my problems for myself.  (I'm not trying to do bad things to her cat, I'm just trying to enjoy my hobby.  The cat's owner doesn't care about me, & despite everything, I DO care about her cat, which is why it isn't dead or in the hands of Animal Control yet).

I won't just sit back & ignore this.  I prefer Fate to Karma.  There is no Karma here, there is Fate, which is what you make of It.

PS.  My wife is allergic to anything with fur, Chinchillas excepted (and we don't want a 300 dollar, very soft rat).


----------



## BlackSilver (Oct 17, 2005)

I do not believe I ever implied the the cat was going to die by anyone's hands.  

And to make matters a little more clear, I never said that doing nothing while waiting for Karma to take care of the matter was a good idea.  I was trying to explain that should you take actions that could cause some Bad Karma then you will have to pay it back.

Allowing the cat to continue is not something you should allow. 

There are a lot of ways to go able resolving this without incurring the debt I spoke of, you just need to find it.

Good luck


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Oct 18, 2005)

Easy: animal control.

Hard, but less guilt:  Cats can be trained.  If they don't go in your yard, train them to go elsewhere.  As mentioned: the garden hose, the pellet gun, some flypaper left lying around the bird feeders, or best: rent a dog from a friend for a week or two.  Meanwhile, throw cat food over the neighbor's fence.

Dangerous, but permanent: .22 long rifle.


----------



## mythusmage (Oct 18, 2005)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> My wife is allergic to anything with fur, Chinchillas excepted (and we don't want a 300 dollar, very soft rat).




Consult an allergist. Your wife's condition is potentially life threatening, what with all the fuzzy critters out there. Ask about desensitization treatment. Might work, might not, but you won't know until you try.


----------



## Vraille Darkfang (Oct 18, 2005)

mythusmage said:
			
		

> Consult an allergist. Your wife's condition is potentially life threatening, what with all the fuzzy critters out there. Ask about desensitization treatment. Might work, might not, but you won't know until you try.





She was on EPD allergy treatment.  And was doing better.  Then the FDA outlawed it (despite admitting it was safer than traditional allergy shots, th ecompany didn't keep their paperwork straight).  So, we've started going to Canada (where it's still legal).  She found out the doctor she was getting her shots from here wasn't doing it right.

She's doing real good.  Only has to have the shot once every 9 months or so.  In fact, EPD actaully cures most people of allergies over the course of treatment (or they only need a shot once every 5 years or so).

We're not sure Canada is still an option for much longer.

But, an American version of the EPD shot (LDA) is now available.  My wife has a SEVERE family history of allergies.  Traditional allergy shots made her so sick, she can barely move for 2 weeks.


----------



## mythusmage (Oct 18, 2005)

Vraille,

Ouch! Extend my sympathies. I hope the course of treatment proves successful. Oh, if you ever have kids (if you don't already), let 'em get dirty. They'll end up healthier in the long run. Remember, the Devil has work for idle immune systems.


----------



## Darthjaye (Oct 18, 2005)

I know of a mouse who does "these" sort of "jobs".  He used to take out cats all the time on TV..........his name was Jerry.


----------



## sniffles (Oct 18, 2005)

I'm a little appalled that people have been discussing ways to kill the cat, even in jest.  :\ 
It's not the cat's fault the woman is apparently an ass. 

Contact animal control. Also complain to the woman's landlord. Even if there are no rules preventing her from having pets, the landlord may not be happy to hear that she's annoying her neighbors. And find something that will frighten the cat away or otherwise deter it from coming into your yard. 

I doubt anyone would prosecute the woman for allowing her cat to kill protected songbirds; even if the woman was killing them herself she probably wouldn't be prosecuted. It's not worth the expense the government would have to go to. You will probably have to either find a way to deal with the cat, or learn to deal with the dead birds. Maybe move your birdfeeder to a different location.

Also, do you have positive evidence it is this cat that is killing the birds? Have you seen the cat do it? There could be other cats or predators in the neighborhood. Just a thought.


----------



## Vraille Darkfang (Oct 18, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> I doubt anyone would prosecute the woman for allowing her cat to kill protected songbirds; even if the woman was killing them herself she probably wouldn't be prosecuted. It's not worth the expense the government would have to go to. You will probably have to either find a way to deal with the cat, or learn to deal with the dead birds. Maybe move your birdfeeder to a different location.
> 
> Also, do you have positive evidence it is this cat that is killing the birds? Have you seen the cat do it? There could be other cats or predators in the neighborhood. Just a thought.




Oh, the government catches you killing LOTS of songbirds (like the totals the cat has killed) they will fine you.  Not jail you, but they will fine you.

As for evidence.  How does seeing it with your own eyes count?  I've caught killings 3 birds with my own eyes, my wife twice & seen a few more close escapes.  I chase it off several times a day where it is sitting to ambush anything coming to the feeder.

This is the cat alright.


----------



## sniffles (Oct 18, 2005)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> Oh, the government catches you killing LOTS of songbirds (like the totals the cat has killed) they will fine you.  Not jail you, but they will fine you.
> 
> As for evidence.  How does seeing it with your own eyes count?  I've caught killings 3 birds with my own eyes, my wife twice & seen a few more close escapes.  I chase it off several times a day where it is sitting to ambush anything coming to the feeder.
> 
> This is the cat alright.




Bad kitty! Anyone know any good ways to teach a cat to stop hunting? I'm not a cat owner.


----------



## Rel (Oct 18, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> Bad kitty! Anyone know any good ways to teach a cat to stop hunting?




Not that I know of.  Belling them makes it a lot harder but I've seen cats adapt their gait to make the bells not jingle much in order to still sneak up on their prey.  The simple fact is that domesticated cats kill songbirds by the BILLIONS.  It's what they do.

_Brief ancecdote:  I read a story once about how an environmental group protested against the placement of some of those big electric lines through a forested area on the basis that "hundreds of songbirds a year would be killed by collision with the power lines".  When the power company produced some estimates showing that a similar number of birds were killed by local cats over the PAST WEEKEND, the protest fell a bit flat._

Then again, we don't seem to be running out of songbirds.

There also isn't any real shortage of cats.


----------



## Vraille Darkfang (Oct 19, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Then again, we don't seem to be running out of songbirds.
> 
> There also isn't any real shortage of cats.




I DID (emphasis on DID) have a pair of Ring Necked Doves living in our backyard.  They're not native to Missouri, they probablly got thier up the Mississipi Flyway & along the Missouri River.

Haven't seen them since the cat moved in.

Stray cats are decimating Hawaii's native fauna.  Some rare birds might not survive.

The simple fact is that if you have a cat it is for 1 of 3 purposes:

1. Breeding/Showing.  This is the high priced world of the show-cat.

2. Companion-ship.  This is what most cats are kept for now-days.

3. Pest Control.  Aside from rural farms, stray cats ARE the vermin now.

If you want the cat as a companion, keep it inside. (or live on enough land it's in a pretty safe location.

Next to a busy county road, on a small lot, next to a lot of neighbors that don't want cat poo/urine in their yards is NOT being a good owner.

I have recieved Confirmation from Animal Control that the kitty is a "Dead cat Walking".  If they pick it up (which can happen if I trap it on my property or they respond to an anonomous tip about an unregistered feline running loose), they'll let the owner know they have it.  If the owner has the cat registered & copies that its shots are up to date, they'll return it.

If it's not registered, she'll have to apply for a registration tag & pay an 'impound fee'.  In order to get the Registration tag, she has to prove all its shots are up to date, if not, they'll do it for her (it won't be cheap).  The cat doesn't have to be spayed/neutered (that'd tick off any breeder wouldn't it), but the Animal Control has a local vet who'll do it pretty cheap.

If she can't/won's pay for kitty's tab.  It goes up for adoption, unless it's wild (this one is).  If it's wild, and doesn't calm down around human interaction over 2 weeks or so.

Kitty takes a trip to the 'special room'.

I don't WANY something bad to happen to the cat.  The owner is leaving me little choice.  SHe won't even *attempt * to try to change it's behavior or work with me on some sort of compremise (say, only letting it out after I get off work & on weekends so we can shoo it off).

I can't reason with the cat.

The owner WON'T reason with me.

The city says un-registered cats NEED to be brought to their attetion to keep the stray count low.

This weekend I'll try to locate some of the products posted about keeping feral cats away.

As for telling the Landlord.  One of my neighbors knows him, so I'll talk to her about what sort of guy he is.


----------



## RustyHalo (Oct 19, 2005)

Darkfang,

i think it is clear that you have given this situation plenty of careful thought. If you have the wherewithal, by all means trap the critter. It may well be worth your while to own a live trap, because another stray cat may threaten the birds that come to your feeders in the future. Live traps are very humane.

i empathize with your frustration about the stray cat killing wild birds at your feeders. My dad loved wild birds. He wore through three copies of the Peterson Guide in his lifetime.

Rel, you stated that "we don't seem to be running out of songbirds." You are mistaken. The situation in Hawaii that Darkfang cites is only the tip of the iceberg. Numerous studies have documented the appalling decline of songbirds in the United States. One leading cause is the rising use of pesticides & herbicides among homeowners, municipalities, and agribusiness. The other leading cause is feral cats (as well as housecats that irresponsible owners let roam). Cats kill MILLIONS of songbirds each year.

Blacksilver, the notion of "karma" does not entail three-fold payback; that notion is Wiccan. There are any number of Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist or Jainist ethicists who could whole-heartedly endorse Darkfang's choice of trapping a stray cat.

Wishing you well,

Halo


----------



## Darthjaye (Oct 19, 2005)

Get yourself a nice watergun.  One with some decent power and aim.   Take and fill it with water and add just a teaspoon full of pepper (hot pepper sauce may work too).  then wait for the cat to enter your property and let him have a full blast every now and then until he learns that going on your property produces bad things for his sense of smell and taste......Oh, and good hunting my friend.  

If you really want to go D&D on it's butt, rig up a container with water over the birdfeeder area and find a life-like bird that flutters or makes movement.  Rig it to the bucket full of water with the aforementioned pepper or hot sauce mix (mix however you feel but not too strong) and wach the fun begin.  You'll also have a nifty little wet trail leading you to the cat.


----------



## Rel (Oct 19, 2005)

It is now clear to me that the post-appocalyptic future will see battle to the death between the bird-watchers and the cat-fanciers.  Somebody should do a d20 suppliment.


----------



## Darthjaye (Oct 19, 2005)

Sylvester and Tweety d20?


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 19, 2005)

> Think about that for a sec - we're talking about taking away a beloved pet because it is inconvenient, and the owner seems difficult to deal with. I dunno about you, but I've had pets stolen before, and it isnt' fun. Think about that as you consider your course of action. What woudl happen if someone made sure your dog or cat went away and never returned.




No, we're talking about taking away an animal from an owner who is not respectful of her responsibility to the community.

The cat is:

1) on someone else's property.

2) leaving behind rotting corpses that the property owner must clean up.  In addition, killing the birds makes the cat a disease vector for anything the dead birds were carrying - ticks, fleas, viruses, parasites, etc., as well as attracting flies, rats, and other carrion eaters.

3) leaving behind fecal matter that the property owner must clean up- another disease vector and a smelly mess besides.

4) if the cat hasn't been "fixed" it can potentially add to the stray/feral cat problem.  If you don't know, ask your local animal shelter about how bad it is and what happens to cats without owners.

Don't get me wrong- I'm constantly rescuing other people's pets where I live.  I see a stray and I'll catch it and do my best to return it to the owner.

HOWEVER- this owner is irresponsible.  She doesn't deserve the pet.


----------



## Tewligan (Oct 19, 2005)

Darthjaye said:
			
		

> If you really want to go D&D on it's butt, rig up a container with water over the birdfeeder area and find a life-like bird that flutters or makes movement.  Rig it to the bucket full of water with the aforementioned pepper or hot sauce mix (mix however you feel but not too strong) and wach the fun begin.  You'll also have a nifty little wet trail leading you to the cat.



Who are you, Wile E. Coyote?


----------



## Bryon_Soulweaver (Oct 20, 2005)

Get a few dogs, especially the ones that dont like cats, like pits, pit mixes, and chows.


----------



## mythusmage (Oct 20, 2005)

Bryon_Soulweaver said:
			
		

> Get a few dogs, especially the ones that dont like cats, like pits, pit mixes, and chows.




The Misses has allergies.


----------



## Darmanicus (Oct 20, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Just remember that if you're a 1st level Commoner, this cat has a better than average chance of killing you in a fair fight.  Make sure you get the Surprise Round.






			
				Vraille said:
			
		

> Option 2. Pray to Lord Ford that one of his Divine Agents may smash the feline flat. As we live right next to a rather busy road, this is almost an assurance. The only question is when?




All hail Lord Ford, man this thread's made my day!


----------



## Darmanicus (Oct 20, 2005)

BlackSilver said:
			
		

> Karma doesn’t care who started it.
> 
> It is about what you consciously do.  Say you trap this cat and turn it over to the authorities, and the woman pays the toll she has to pay in order to get her beloved cat back.  Say she does that, why?  Because she cares about her cat.  She takes the cat inside and you never hear from it or hear again.
> 
> ...




Karmic Shmarmic! Geez, what's with all this threefold cr@p? Sounds like origami to me!


----------



## Darmanicus (Oct 20, 2005)

Oh yeah forgot to add, just shoot the damn thing! Don't use a rifle, use a slingshot with loads of nails, it's got a better spread!


----------



## sniffles (Oct 20, 2005)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> HOWEVER- this owner is irresponsible.  She doesn't deserve the pet.



Quoted for truth.


----------



## frankthedm (Oct 20, 2005)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> I'm more worried about _reprisals_.



As you should, get the law / cops involved and you deserve to find out how little they can do for you.  

_"Well sir, unless you SAW the person smash your windows, there is not a lot we can do for you."_


----------



## Imperialus (Oct 20, 2005)

even if the cat is removed by animal control I'd still concider getting one of the predator deterents, just to keep a situation like this from happening again.  There is one product I know of, though I forget the name that consists of a stake which emits a smell that cats find distasteful.  My grandfather lived in a rural area where ferel cats were commonplace and he would put a stake in below each of his birdfeeders, worked like a charm.


----------



## Rel (Oct 20, 2005)

Imperialus said:
			
		

> There is one product I know of, though I forget the name that consists of a stake which emits a smell that cats find distasteful.  My grandfather lived in a rural area where ferel cats were commonplace and he would put a stake in below each of his birdfeeders, worked like a charm.




It works even better if you put the stake through the actual cat.


----------



## Finster (Oct 21, 2005)

'Cause I'm armed and I don't believe in Karma.

I luv this! Yoinked for sig. Rel, are you from Texas?

What ever you do, remember it's not the cat's fault. Wild animals do this to feed. If the cat did not have ready access to a steady food source I don't think there would be any corpses laying around. Antifreeze is a horrible way to kill an animal (it's slow and agonizing). Better to catch it and turn it over to the authorities. 

But if you want to have some fun...I saw a show on the learning channel. A group of engineers built a scale replica of a trebuchet. It should be able, if aimed correctly, to hurl the cat into the air high enough that it would pass the magical height from which cats can fall without incuring severe injury. Just aim this at your neighbor's property and return her animal.

the preceding was written in jest, and in no way should be taken literally. Finster has never partaken in, nor does he condone, the hurling of small fury animals.


----------



## Dark Jezter (Oct 21, 2005)

Finster said:
			
		

> the preceding was written in jest, and in no way should be taken literally. Finster has never partaken in, nor does he condone, the hurling of small fury animals.




Small _fury_ animals?  Are those things like wolverines or wild boars?


----------



## Rel (Oct 21, 2005)

Finster said:
			
		

> 'Cause I'm armed and I don't believe in Karma.
> 
> I luv this! Yoinked for sig. Rel, are you from Texas?




I am not a Texan, nor do I play one on TV.  I'm from the great state of North Carolina.

In an amazing coincidence however, I am currently wearing the "Don't Mess With Texas" shirt I picked up while I was in Dallas.

And I'm a big Cowboys fan from since I was a kid.


----------



## Bryon_Soulweaver (Oct 21, 2005)

mythusmage said:
			
		

> The Misses has allergies.



A poisonis snake?


----------



## Vraille Darkfang (Oct 21, 2005)

Finster said:
			
		

> What ever you do, remember it's not the cat's fault. Wild animals do this to feed. If the cat did not have ready access to a steady food source I don't think there would be any corpses laying around.




You mean like the all the cat food she sets out for it?  It doesn't kill for food.  It has plenty of food.  It kills to kill.  (Some of the corpses are just left there).

Its a documented fact that many well-cared for house cats develop a pshcyo-killer mentality, slaughrtering animals all night, with no intetnion of ever eating them. (Usually indoor/outdoor cats that have a constent food source & don't NEED to hunt for food).

Scientists are not sure why they do it, or why not all cats do it, but they do.  In fact, studies have shown some house cats kill THOUSANDS of small mammels/birds/reptiles a year.  One case had a cat average over 100 kills a night.  Never ate them, came to the food dish for food, just killed things in its spare time.  It's these cats that are putting a tougher hit than their wild, feral brethern (depending on the size of the feral population).  The feral cats only hunt to survive, so like most cats species, they make a kill, eat it, then save up energy until they need to hunt again.  They also have shorter lives.  Domestic cats live longer, tend to be in better health to begin with & hunt much more frequently (as they HAVE food, they just wan to kill things).  Thus a domestic cat kills a lot more animals & kills them for a longer time than a wild cat.  Unless an area has a big feral population, the domestic cats kill more birds than the feral ones do.


Not all cats are like this.  Some domestic cats are content to just lay around and not turn into lil'serial killers.


----------



## Tewligan (Oct 21, 2005)

Bryon_Soulweaver said:
			
		

> A poisonis snake?



"Honey, we don't have to worry about that darn cat anymore!"
"Oh, good! What did you do?"
"I released a cobra into the back yard! Be careful when you go to the car."
"..."


----------



## Vraille Darkfang (Oct 21, 2005)

Tewligan said:
			
		

> "Honey, we don't have to worry about that darn cat anymore!"
> "Oh, good! What did you do?"
> "I released a cobra into the back yard! Be careful when you go to the car."
> "..."




We did have an 8' Black Snake in our yard a few months ago (before killer-kitty showed up).  But as we live in town & near a main road, that snake was gonna die, So I got him in a box & called Animal Control.  The AC lady was deathly afraid of Snakes as it turned out.  Ours was the biggest one she's ever seen inside the city limits.

Cobra's don't last in Missouri.  But maybe a Nice Rattler, or a Water Mocassin (of course no water near us).  

I've stopped putting out bird food for a while (until I do something about that cat).  I hope it doesn't extend its range (well, the good part of me hopes).  As the people across the street have rabbits.  They just let them run around in their fenced yard.  They are, nice freindly rabbits that act like dogs.  I'm afraid of what would happen if the cat saw nice, fat rabbits.  

I'm still trying to think of the best way of doing this without her getting ticked off at ME.  The more the cat runs around, the more people will notice it.  The more people will complain, the more targets she'll have to think as to 'who Snitched on her illegal kitty'.


----------



## Finster (Oct 21, 2005)

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. I did assume she left food out for it. Otherwise it probably wouldn't hang around.

I've seen cats do what you have described. They are pretty good at it too. We ended up placing a 3' (~1 meter) tall wire mesh fence around the bird feeders outside of pouncing distance. We didn't really care what it looked like (it was pretty barn-yard-esque), we just like to feed the birds as they migrate through. After hurling themselves against the fence for a couple weeks with no success, they just gave up and went away. This may not work in your case, our landscaping (or lack thereof) allowed for it.


----------



## Vraille Darkfang (Oct 28, 2005)

Just a quick update.

I went to Petco & picked up some stuff that you can put in your yard that supposed to keep cats away.  I'll see how it works.  It's a powder that comes in a paper milk carton.  It was the only thing they had that didn't need to be applied every 24-48 hours.

Still, at 13 bucks a carton (it should last a few months, at least during winter; it needs to be re-applied after it rains), this is an expensive option I shouldn't have to resort too.  Plus, I have no idea what the product will do to our grass/flowers over time.

As the cat is Black & we've re-arranged our deck furniture to take away its prime hiding spot, I figure the birds'll be OK for the winter.  Kinda hard for him to sneak up over a blanket of snow.  I'm going to take pictures of any kitty tracks in the snow, as well as any photos I can get of that cat in our yard/stalking the birds/ pooing in the yard.  That way, if I do have to resort to Animal Control, I'll have photo proof its doing what I'm saying its doing (eliminating any he said/she said with AC).  

Come spring, I'll have to do something one way or the other.  The cat'll eventually get smashed flat living next to our busy road, but who knows how long that will take.  She lives in an old-rental place, it's got orginal single-pane windows & poor insulation, She might be forced out by utility bills this winter (she has yet to begin to winterize the place).  Still this gives me some time to come up with other options.  I don't really want the cat dead & I don't want to tick off this lady, but, at present if she won't try to deal with HER cat, I'll HAVE too.


----------



## reveal (Oct 28, 2005)

_Whackity whack,
Don't meow back!_


----------

