# Rate Revenge of the Sith *SPOILERS*



## Krug (May 13, 2005)

Have your say, after watching it!


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## Truth Seeker (May 13, 2005)

Krug said:
			
		

> Have your say, after watching it!




Uhm, that is not until next Thursday...but Saturday is for me. But I will SAY this...MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU!!!


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## Krug (May 13, 2005)

Watching on Monday...


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## Truth Seeker (May 13, 2005)

Krug said:
			
		

> Watching on Monday...




*Just looks away, the darkness swells with such fury, so quickly*


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## Angel Tarragon (May 13, 2005)

I won't be one of the masses to see it the first four days it is out. I'll wait til the weekend of the 28th to watch it in comfort.


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## jonesy (May 13, 2005)

I'll probably see it when it comes out on DVD.

What? Hey, I haven't seen EpII yet either.


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## reveal (May 13, 2005)

jonesy said:
			
		

> I'll probably see it when it comes out on DVD.
> 
> What? Hey, I haven't seen EpII yet either.




I sense much lethargy in you.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 13, 2005)

Well, its off to a wonderful internet start. First vote before the movie's even gotten its real release is a 0. Ahhh, the internet.


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## reveal (May 13, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Well, its off to a wonderful internet start. First vote before the movie's even gotten its real release is a 0. Ahhh, the internet.




You know, they have the internet on computers now!


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## Arnwyn (May 13, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> I won't be one of the masses to see it the first four days it is out. I'll wait til the weekend of the 28th to watch it in comfort.



Yep, exactly. That's how I'm going to do this one (and how I saw Ep. II as well). I (foolishly) lined up for Ep. I for the midnight showing... never doing that again.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 13, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Well, its off to a wonderful internet start. First vote before the movie's even gotten its real release is a 0. Ahhh, the internet.




So was the second...    This stuff should be a public poll.  I want names damn't!


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 13, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> So was the second...    This stuff should be a public poll.  I want names damn't!



 Yeah. Hmm...seems people are fighting back. I'm pretty sure I'll love this movie, but I'm still not ranking it until after I see it.


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## Desdichado (May 13, 2005)

Now, if only we could keep the thread quiet until someone's seen it!

On Thursday, the thread will already be three pages long with no useful commentary yet.


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## Truth Seeker (May 13, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Now, if only we could keep the thread quiet until someone's seen it!
> 
> On Thursday, the thread will already be three pages long with no useful commentary yet.





Hmmm, can we freeze it?


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## Desdichado (May 13, 2005)

Maybe in carbonite?

D'oh!  Here I am contributing to the problem!


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## EricNoah (May 13, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> You know, they have the internet on computers now!




The internet?  Is that thing still around??


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## Angel Tarragon (May 13, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> The internet?  Is that thing still around??



It'll be around 'til NINs (neural Interface Networks) arewidely available, then you'll be able to mentally jack into the 'net. When this happens it'll be christened the Virtualnet.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 13, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> On Thursday, the thread will already be three pages long with no useful commentary yet.




You say that like someone will say something useful after Thursday. 

We got four votes now: 2: 1s; 1: 8; 1: 10

How about we just remake the thread Wednesday Night and make it a public poll while we are at it.


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (May 13, 2005)

There was a benefit showing in DC at the Uptown last night.  They had people parking at the Zoo (which is down the street) and had Stormtroopers along the short walk to the theater giving directions.


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## reveal (May 13, 2005)

What's sad is, knowing todays technology, it _is_ possible that the people who have voted have actually seen an illegal copy of the movie.


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## Angel Tarragon (May 13, 2005)

Or maybe some of the people here are cross-time posters!


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## The Grumpy Celt (May 13, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> You know, they have the internet on computers now!




Really? Really and for true? A computer would make it easier. 'Cause I'm totally using a blue berry muffing to log on.


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## reveal (May 13, 2005)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Really? Really and for true? A computer would make it easier. 'Cause I'm totally using a blue berry muffing to log on.




Mmmmmmm..... Blueberry.....


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 13, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> What's sad is, knowing todays technology, it _is_ possible that the people who have voted have actually seen an illegal copy of the movie.




True, but I doubt it...  At least the ones.    This board is so anti-Lucas it's scary.


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## reveal (May 13, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> True, but I doubt it...  At least the ones.    This board is so anti-Lucas it's scary.




Hey man! Screw Lucas and the tauntaun he rode in on!


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 13, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Hey man! Screw Lucas and the Tom-Tom he rode in on!



 ...Tauntaun...


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## reveal (May 13, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> ...Tauntaun...




That's what I said.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 13, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Hey man! Screw Lucas and the tauntaun he rode in on!




Your anger is impressive... Most impressive.


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## Krug (May 13, 2005)

Well I don't see the point of remaking the poll. They're not an accurate measure anyway, because you're still going to get people who vote that haven't seen a movie. Just look at it as a rough gauge of of where EN Worlders stand towards a flick.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 13, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> That's what I said.



 Hah! That's not what the Quote says  



			
				Krug said:
			
		

> Well I don't see the point of remaking the poll. They're not an accurate measure anyway, because you're still going to get people who vote that haven't seen a movie. Just look at it as a rough gauge of of where EN Worlders stand towards a flick.




So far...we can see that we've got two bitter ENWorlders and two trying to balance things out.


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## myrdden (May 13, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> On Thursday, the thread will already be three pages long with no useful commentary yet.




That sounds like a challenge!


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## myrdden (May 13, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> So far...we can see that we've got two bitter ENWorlders and two trying to balance things out.




GASP!!  Just like the prequals!  Coincidence....I think not!

Who will be our Anakin and bring balance to the Poll?


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## Truth Seeker (May 14, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Your anger is impressive... Most impressive.




So is your foresight...yes, most insightful...yeeeessss


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## Krug (May 15, 2005)

The day is almost upon us... 

At 69 points on Metacritic, with heavyweights The Hollywood Reporter and Variety giving it a 90.


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## GlassJaw (May 15, 2005)

Definitely a solid 9.  Maybe a bit higher.  Tough to give anything a 10 though.


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## Greylock (May 15, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> Definitely a solid 9.  Maybe a bit higher.  Tough to give anything a 10 though.




Well, technically, this poll goes to eleven.


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## Digital M@ (May 15, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Now, if only we could keep the thread quiet until someone's seen it!
> 
> On Thursday, the thread will already be three pages long with no useful commentary yet.





Why so many people feel compulsed to start threads about movies significantly before they come out blows my mind.  People see a poll and they want to vote.  They fail their will save and cast a vote just for the heck of it.  If you don't want us doing that or babbling pointlessly, wait to start the thread until the movie actually comes out.

I know you did not start the thread, but this is becoming a trend on this board.


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## Krieg (May 15, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> You know, they have the internet on computers now!




Yeah but I can't get to it because I can't find that stupid [ANY] key!


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 15, 2005)

I think this poll definitely demonstrates that we should wait until at least a day or two or even the day OF the movie before putting the threads up. Sure, they aren't that good a measure anyway, but why make it worse?

We've got 11 votes before the movie's even released...


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## Krug (May 15, 2005)

I think some people have actually seen it at test previews and so on. But yeah probably will only post polls in future only when a movie's released.


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## GlassJaw (May 16, 2005)

> I think some people have actually seen it at test previews and so on.




I can vouch for that.  My vote is legit!


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 16, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> I can vouch for that.  My vote is legit!



 I figured that. Hard to call something a solid 9 if you haven't seen it. 

Of course, I doubt that many others are legit...especially the first ones that popped up, as I believe those were before the first screenings and such.


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## Viking Bastard (May 16, 2005)

I could be seeing it tomorrow, but I'm busy.

_DAMN MY BUSYNESS!_


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## Truth Seeker (May 16, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> I think this poll definitely demonstrates that we should wait until at least a day or two or even the day OF the movie before putting the threads up. Sure, they aren't that good a measure anyway, but why make it worse?
> 
> We've got 11 votes before the movie's even released...




Have some carbonite handy to hold the poll in place until....Friday!!!


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 16, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> Have some carbonite handy to hold the poll in place until....Friday!!!



 Why not Thursday at a little after 2:20AM?


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## diaglo (May 16, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> The internet?  Is that thing still around??





i heard Al Gore invented it. and he is a 10th lvl Vice President.


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## Krug (May 17, 2005)

Well seen it. The visuals are simply stunning, as Lucas unveils  a whole ton of new vehicles, prob enough to keep his toy component churning out new product for the next 30 years, on screen, and the action sequences are breathtaking. 

Unfortunately, the lumbering dramatic and love sequences are still in there, but they're a llittle less awkward in this. As Lucas has pointed out, there's more real world reference in the political subtext of RotS which gives the movie more depth.

Definitely the best of the three prequels. 7/10 from me.


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## Krug (May 18, 2005)

Bump.


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## Darth K'Trava (May 18, 2005)

arnwyn said:
			
		

> Yep, exactly. That's how I'm going to do this one (and how I saw Ep. II as well). I (foolishly) lined up for Ep. I for the midnight showing... never doing that again.




WUSS!!

I'm seeing it at both midnight and again at 7:45 that same day!


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## Darth K'Trava (May 18, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Yeah. Hmm...seems people are fighting back. I'm pretty sure I'll love this movie, but I'm still not ranking it until after I see it.




Me neither. It'd be pointless otherwise.


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## Darth K'Trava (May 18, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Hey man! Screw Lucas and the tauntaun he rode in on!


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## Truth Seeker (May 18, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Why not Thursday at a little after 2:20AM?




No...I feel nasty , friday....just friday.


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## Arnwyn (May 18, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> WUSS!!



Nah. Think "apathy".


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## Jakar (May 18, 2005)

Saw it about 8 hours ago here in Australia.  Good but not great.  The look rates a 10 but the acting and the script only get about a 3 from me.


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## Bass Puppet (May 19, 2005)

I saw it last night.

Visually...it's absolutely beautiful, but I would have liked to see more set design like in the OT as apose to MORE C.G.I. . I thought Lucas tried to cram to much into this one, but it did flow, just very quickly. The acting was better (maybe because their was less) between Hayden and Portman...but not much. Yoda rocks. The Music was great! Ian McDiarmid is amazing in this. 

Quint from aint it cool news said it best.

_"REVENGE OF THE SITH is worth getting excited about, but it's not perfect... however, compared to the first two ROTS is damn near a masterpiece of modern cinema. You'll have a good time and for those of us burned by the other prequels... it'll finally feel like you're watching a STAR WARS film again. Thank God."_


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## Digital M@ (May 19, 2005)

Bass Puppet said:
			
		

> I saw it last night.
> 
> I thought Lucas tried to cram to much into this one, but it did flow, just very quickly. The acting was better (maybe because their was less) between Hayden and Portman...but not much. Yoda rocks. The Music was great! Ian McDiarmid is amazing in this.




This is my opinion as well.  IMO, he took two movies for basic setup and one movie focuses on what the whole trilogy should have focused on.  He could of had so much more depth to everything without kiddie Vader in Ep I.  It kinda makes me sad he missed the mark by so much.  I think maybe he had visions of certain scenes and created the movies around those visions instead of working one long story board up and then dividing it into three films.


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## KenM (May 19, 2005)

I just got back from midnight showing. I gave it a 8. Really good sci fi flick. Best Star Wars since Empire. But I also think Lucas tryed to put too much into this one. If he spread it out, we could have had more devolpment with some of the secondary characters. (Mace Windu, Bail Organia, Dooku, ect.)


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## Aeson (May 19, 2005)

Vast improvement of the previous two. For is saying a lot because I liked them. My faith in Star Wars has been restored.


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## Insight (May 19, 2005)

Go see it.  I'm not going to do any spoilers.  Just go see it.  Well worth whatever effort it takes you.  Answers all of the questions, and is one hell of a fine movie.  Oh, and one small spolier - Artoo kicks ass!


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 19, 2005)

Also just got back. Great. And yes, Artoo is even better than ever.

At this point, I put Sith behind only Empire. Everything was just...just...I'm too tired to make sense of it, and I need to see it again to take in everything.

Before I go to bed though...look for the Millenium Falcon(or a generic YT-1300, but we KNOW which ship it really is)

EDIT: Forgot to mention...I give it a 9. Only not a 10 due to some really bad dialogue(mostly all on Portman's part...Hayden did great as Anakin), but that was kind of expected anyway.


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## Animus (May 19, 2005)

I just got back from seeing it, and I gave it an 8. I felt like the effects were great, the fighting was great, but the dialogue was just too blah to put it any higher. Still, I thought it was better than Eps. I and II of the prequels (which isn't saying much) and an overall comparison right below Empire as the second best movie in the saga. I felt my time was well spent.


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## stevelabny (May 19, 2005)

this is insane. people bash and bash phantom menace. which at the very least has one of the best fight scenes in movie history. they think attack of the clones is ok even though its not. and they love this piece of trash?

yikes.

this is the movie where its all supposed to come together...

and it doesnt.

[sblock] it falls flat on its face. the action sequences are lame. 
the characters have no motive for anything. the jedi are all revealed to be incredibly stupid (even more so than we suspectd) and they even get taken out in battle in 6 seconds or less. some, by stormtroopers.  [/sblock]

can the original author please put the spoiler tag on this thread now so everyone doesnt have to hide their conversation about the movie?


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## Ruvion (May 19, 2005)

Just got back from a midnight showing as well (I got dragged into it by friends, but did not come to regret the decision)

I would say it's a solid 7.5, only because of the pace of the movie seemed so quick compared to the other two trash...err...prequels.  I would have to agree with others that the other two movies was a long set up for the finale (ie RotS).  Wish George Lucas had made the third movie a three part instead (of making the other two).

Personally, I didn't think there was enough screen time spent on Obiwan and Anakin's relationship throughout the prequels and when the two ended up fighting it didn't have nearly the drama provoked by the Luke and Vader fight (of course nothing beats a good father and son duel, but the teacher vs apprentice bout could have had more depth and drama than a regular wrestling smackdown).


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## Jdvn1 (May 19, 2005)

Yep, midnight showing.  I was pretty disappointed, but it looks like I was one of the few.


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## Shadowdancer (May 19, 2005)

I gave it a 7 in the poll, but I rounded up -- score should be a 6.5.


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## WayneLigon (May 19, 2005)

Just got back from seeing it at a midnight showing. I give it a 6. It tries, but... doesn't quite pull things together. Things are good up until Palpatine force-lightnings Mace Windu, then... things kind of slowly fall apart. The entire end of the film feels somewhat disjoined and anticlimatic. We're not left with a sense that everything everyone has worked for has gone terribly wrong and is going to stay wrong for a very long time. No, it ends with swelling upbeat hopefull-for-the-future music and golden sunsets and you know things are going to turn out OK.

There are good patches but like the other prequels at the end of the day they're just patches. The opening battle, which takes place minutes after the animated microseries ends, is nice. The ruin of Dooku, the banter between Anakin and Obi-Wan, all of it was pretty darn cool.

The maneuverings of the Council and the Chancellor are cool, as you see the gradual slide towards ruin building and building. 

Where things started to lose focus for me was where the Chancellor reveals himself to Anakin as a Sith Lord. I.. don't quite beleive the whole period there. To me, there should have been more manipulation, more of a sense that Palpatine has everything under control and has taken every possible action into account as he maneuvers Anakin to take that one last step into the abyss. The whole bit with Padme just seems hamfisted.

We see far too little of the Wookies.

The end of the Jedi, I didn't find any fault with that. Unprepared, caught by surprise, and few of them are the equal of ours heroes to begin with... yeah, I have no problems with that. 

The last fight is good. 

We see far too little of Vader after the armor comes on. I don't find the bit with Palpatines little revelation at all convincing. 

There are little touches here and there. We see Alderan but far too briefly. We find out how Obi-Wan and Yoda cheat death and do the disappearing thing, but it comes totally the hell out of left feild at the last minute. We find out kinda sorta how the Emperor comes to look the way he does, but that I don't understand at all unless it's Mace Windu's blocking the lightning that causes what we see. I might could buy that. We see the Death Star already (it looks) about half-way done. There could be many, many reasons why it takes them 19 years to complete the other half.

I think all in all it's much like the other prequels, with the same amount of like and dislike. Maybe I'll feel better or worse about the film tomorrow, but that's how I feel now at 3:30 in the morning


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## John Crichton (May 19, 2005)

*Spoilers Abound!*

SPOILERS, PEOPLE!!!

I'm going to have to give it a 10.

Does this mean that it is better than or equal to the quality of A New Hope or Empire Strikes Back? No, it certainly doesn't. It is good for it's own reasons. The only problems that I could have had with it fall in the dialogue area but there are exposititory scenes in ALL the Star Wars movies that I could do without so I cannot hold those moments against this film.

It should also be noted that I am biased. Very biased, in fact because there are some hard core geek-out moments that are so good that they make the film all that much more enjoyable. Will these moments stand the test of time like Eps 4/5, I dunno. But things like seeing Captain Antilles onscreen, Anakin and Obi-wan saying goodbye for the last time, the Sith naming cerimony and things like that are just too cool. If I was a girl, I would have been squealing. As it was I was reduced to a bunch of muttered, "no way" and "holy &%$#" comments.

Palpatine's machinations were brilliant. Every time he was onscreen, especially with Anakin, there was the perfect sense of dread and deception that there needs to be in order for the character and plot to work. I really felt that Anakin was trying to do the right thing for most of the first 1/3 of the movie. But his emotions blinded him, just like they should.

All the backplot that we know about from the original trilogy was played out very nicely. When I saw the Corellian Corvette for the first time I freaked. Then the interior shot. Too cool. Of course, the first real good OT vibe was the "lock S-foils into attack position" line in the first few minutes. Really helped make it feel like Star Wars.

I'd go into more drool moments like the duels, the Jedi Purge (OMG!!!), Yoda in general and other action scenes but it would just be that. I must make mention of the final moment of Obi-wan and Anakin's duel. The fight was over and Anakin, cocky and full of power thinks he can out-power his former master. He leaps and gets his friggin legs hacked off, defeating _himself_. It's funny, but Obi-wan never really beat him in that fight. He beat himself. I thought that was great and right on-pitch with the characters. Well done.

Okay, enough gushing and on to the parts that didn't sit right with me.

Padme dying. I'm actually ok with it but Leia's line in Jedi about remembering her mother resonates differently now. She is remembering a foster mom at that point and not their shared mother. I guess her death has more dramatic weight but it did irk me a bit. Not enough to ruin or lessen the movie, but it still felt odd.

The senate all clapping upon annoucement that the Rupblic was dead and now an Empire. At the time it made no sense, but upon further reflection it is safe to assume that Palpatine has manipulated enough allies into place to make the senate completely loyal to him. It didn't feel right while watching it but after a conversation afterwards I'm okay with it.

And those were really the only points of the movie that didn't work for me. More may pop up on future viewings and the film may not hold up like the greats of the series but right now I am pumped. Episode 3 was dark, depressing, filled with meaningful action and overall a perfect bow to knot the movies together.

And Lucas was right: The first trilogy was certainly more interesting. Actual war is much more entertaining than a political war. If he started the story with Episode I, the rest of the films wouldn't have happened.


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## fett527 (May 19, 2005)

My feelings are somewhat in between John Crichton and Wayne Ligon.  I gave it an 8 of course.

Most of it worked for me.  I loved the battle scenes.  I thought Grievous was very cool, I was looking for ward to his appearance after watching the Clone Wars cartoon.  Teh emperor's machinations were great.  Yoda vs. Emperor set against Obi-Wan vs. Vader was awesome!  I really liked Hayden's acting much better this time.

Where it didn't work for me:

Chewbacca and Yoda.  It was useless and he shouldn't have been added.  Didn't like it all.

The one scene I was looking forward to the most, the revealing of Vader in all his black robed glory, was disappointing.  I didn't like the dialogue and, even if it fit, I didn't like seeing Vader stumble around.  The force crush was cool, but over all this critical scene was a bust for me.  Quite honestly this is what took it down to an 8 for me.  I wanted something much different from this scene.

But I will see it a handful more times to make sure of my opinions to be sure!


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## John Crichton (May 19, 2005)

fett527 said:
			
		

> The one scene I was looking forward to the most, the revealing of Vader in all his black robed glory, was disappointing. I didn't like the dialogue and, even if it fit, I didn't like seeing Vader stumble around. The force crush was cool, but over all this critical scene was a bust for me. Quite honestly this is what took it down to an 8 for me. I wanted something much different from this scene.
> 
> But I will see it a handful more times to make sure of my opinions to be sure!



Interesting that the scene in question didn't work for you.  It totally rocked me.  The Vader helmet-view and seeing for one quick moment that Anakin was a bit scared and didn't like what he had become was telling.  Seeing him stumble, like a newborn animal,  showed that he had to grow into his new legs and had become a completely different person: no longer Anakin.  The scream was chilling and at the same time sad.  I could see that this was the same character who from now on took nothing from no one and lived to further his own causes no matter the cost.

I can see how some could see it at cheezy but it really worked for me.  Especially considering the scene before it where we see him burning alive and abandoned.  And the next thing he learns is that all he lived for, the purpose for his killing rage and sacrifice of morals was for nothing and he failed.  Again, and this time worse than before.

Honestly, I can't get that scene out of my head.


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## Krug (May 19, 2005)

I thought it was a missed opportunity in not developing Padme's character further.

*SPOILER*


Spoiler



I thought having a scene where she confronts the Emperor would have been great and added much more depth to the movie. Unfortunately, she's relegated to being a vessel to pop out the twins and the dutiful, sacrificial wife-mother figure.


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## reveal (May 19, 2005)

Krug said:
			
		

> I thought it was a missed opportunity in not developing Padme's character further.
> 
> *SPOILER*
> 
> [/spoiler]




Can you please add the word "spoilers" to the title of the thread? Not everyone is using spoiler tags.


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## Radiating Gnome (May 19, 2005)

*[spoilers]*

[SPOILERS]

I gave it a 4, and I was pretty disappointed.  

Phantom menace had one thing going for it -- Darth Maul -- and his 8 minutes of on-screen fighting time are the best in all three of Episodes 1-3.  There are some very good fight scenes in this one, too, but they have the same empty, cartoony quality that Neo's fight with hundreds of Smiths in Matrix Reloaded.  

But this one lacked what all three of the recent episodes have lacked -- character and personality.  Every character that walks across the screen has the same lack of depth and feeling that has poisoned all three movies.  This one really needed to be a character-driven piece, and instead we were treated to the same shorthand and charicature that has made it so hard to connect with the other two.  

I mean, where's the banter?  Where's the tension between characters.  Wheres the crackle in the dialog.  The writing was stilted and obvious, the acting was flat, and in both the real fault, I believe, lies in the director who has spent the past 10 years demonstrating a lack of interest in those elements of his filmmaking.  I would have been relieved, happy -- ecstatic, really -- for just a few sharp lines, well delivered, like "Would someone get this walking carpet out of my way" or "let the wookie win" or "Who's scruffy looking?".  Instead we get dull flat lack of feeling.  I didn't feel Anakin's love for Padme.  I didn't care about his confusion as he was manipulated by the Chancellor.  I didn't feel obiwan's dismay at having to fight his student.  I didn't feel ANYTHING for Padme, and let's face it, she's a hottie.  I mean, it didn't even sound like they were writing for Yoda very well.  

So, it's a pretty piece of science fantasy.  Some cool fight scenes -- especially Obiwan's duel with the Robot General dude.  But it's not what I'd let myself hope it would be, given all the hype.

-rg


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## Dark Jezter (May 19, 2005)

Like John Crichton, I gave this movie a 10.  Not only is this the best of the prequels, but it could very possibly be my favorite Star Wars movie yet.

[SPOILERS BELOW]

Things I loved:
Artoo kicking much ass.
Chewbacca making a cameo, and seeing the wookies going to war.
Watching Palpatine manipulate Anakin into believing that the Jedi Council is using him and that the Dark Side of the force could solve his problems.
The Sith naming ceremony after Anakin assists Darth Sideous in killing Mace Windu.
The execution of Order 66: when the clone troopers suddenly stop and turn their fire upon the Jedi knights whom had been fighting with them side-by-side.  And the scene where Anakin finds the children hiding in the Jedi temple was absolutely chilling.
Obi-Wan and Yoda sending off the signal warning the Jedi to stay away from Coruscant; meaning that it's possible that they aren't the only Jedi who survived the purges.
The Corellian Corvette making an appearance, and Bail Organa being an overall awesome character.
Yoda casually walking in and taking out the Emperor's red-cloaked guards with merely a wave of his hand.  Hilarious. 
The duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan interspliced with the battle between Yoda and the Emperor.
The sad, defeated look on Yoda's face when he admits that he's failed to stop Palpatine and he must go into exile.
Darth Vader being placed into his suit, and his anguished howl when he learned that killing the Jedi and embracing the dark side of the force failed to save Padme (and ultimately caused her death, as it's implied that she died from a broken heart caused by Anakin's fall to evil).
The final conversation between Obi-Wan and Yoda.
Grand Moff Tarkin having a tiny cameo at the end.  It never says his name, but the resemblance is so strong that it couldn't have been anyone else. 

All in all, I loved it.  There were a few things I would have liked to have seen that weren't included, though:
I would have liked to see the formation of the Rebel Alliance, or at the very least a scene with Padme, Bail Organa, Mon Mothama, and other individuals who aren't happy with Palpatine's formation of the Galactic Empire agreeing that he must be stopped.
I also would have liked to see some mention of Han Solo.  Virtually every other major character from the original trilogy has been mentioned in one way or another in the prequels, so why not Han?  (Hopefully the Episode III DVD will have a deleted scene that mentions Han, just as Episode I DVD had a deleted scene that featured a young Greedo)


----------



## Desdichado (May 19, 2005)

Digital M@ said:
			
		

> Why so many people feel compulsed to start threads about movies significantly before they come out blows my mind.  People see a poll and they want to vote.  They fail their will save and cast a vote just for the heck of it.  If you don't want us doing that or babbling pointlessly, wait to start the thread until the movie actually comes out.
> 
> I know you did not start the thread, but this is becoming a trend on this board.



I quite agree; it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine as well.

But now that it's almost a full day out, we can get a fair number of legitimate votes.  Although people will still vote nonsensically.  Someone in another thread said it wasn't as good as Star Wars or Empire, but still gave this 10 out of 10.  So what's Star Wars or Empire, then, if 10's the top of the scale?

Me, I gave it an 8.  After a few more viewings, I might revise that down, though.  I certainly did with both Menace and Clones.  I still think it was quite a bit better than either of them, though, and the first of the prequels worthy enough to eke out a place next to the original trilogy.


----------



## Desdichado (May 19, 2005)

Radiating Gnome said:
			
		

> I mean, where's the banter?  Where's the tension between characters.  Wheres the crackle in the dialog.  The writing was stilted and obvious, the acting was flat, and in both the real fault, I believe, lies in the director who has spent the past 10 years demonstrating a lack of interest in those elements of his filmmaking.  I would have been relieved, happy -- ecstatic, really -- for just a few sharp lines, well delivered, like "Would someone get this walking carpet out of my way" or "let the wookie win" or "Who's scruffy looking?".  Instead we get dull flat lack of feeling.  I didn't feel Anakin's love for Padme.  I didn't care about his confusion as he was manipulated by the Chancellor.  I didn't feel obiwan's dismay at having to fight his student.  I didn't feel ANYTHING for Padme, and let's face it, she's a hottie.  I mean, it didn't even sound like they were writing for Yoda very well.



All true, but it was still an improvement.  If nothing else, I felt --for the first time in all three movies, mind-- the closeness between Annakin and Obiwan, and the pain of their mutually perceived betrayals.

That was the closet thing to emotion, as well as source of the closest thing to snappy lines in the movie.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 19, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Padme dying. I'm actually ok with it but Leia's line in Jedi about remembering her mother resonates differently now. She is remembering a foster mom at that point and not their shared mother. I guess her death has more dramatic weight but it did irk me a bit. Not enough to ruin or lessen the movie, but it still felt odd.





Actually, its been said by Lucas himself that Leia IS remembering Padme. Now, that does still work, just not in the literal sense. Remember, Leia only says she remembers feelings(even though she describe Padme as beautiful)

She's remembering through the Force. Its really that simple, and makes perfect sense.



			
				Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> * I would have liked to see the formation of the Rebel Alliance, or at the very least a scene with Padme, Bail Organa, Mon Mothama, and other individuals who aren't happy with Palpatine's formation of the Galactic Empire agreeing that he must be stopped.




Many of the deleted scenes were just these kind of things. Senators that weren't happy. So, hopefully, we'll see them back in the DVD.



			
				Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> * I also would have liked to see some mention of Han Solo. Virtually every other major character from the original trilogy has been mentioned in one way or another in the prequels, so why not Han? (Hopefully the Episode III DVD will have a deleted scene that mentions Han, just as Episode I DVD had a deleted scene that featured a young Greedo)




No Han was ever dealt with in any way for this movie...HOWEVER, there's a YT-1300 transport that's pretty hard to miss early on in the movie. Knowing Lucas, its the _Faclon_.

I don't have much to add, still...just...blown away by it. I knew it was going to be dark, but didn't expect it to be THAT dark. Probably the best line of the movie, and, for me, right up there with "I am your father", would be Obi-Wan's "You were my brother!"


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## Desdichado (May 19, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> No Han was ever dealt with in any way for this movie...HOWEVER, there's a YT-1300 transport that's pretty hard to miss early on in the movie. Knowing Lucas, its the _Faclon_.



I didn't see it.  Where was it?


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 19, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I didn't see it.  Where was it?



 Very early in the spaceport on Coruscant, there's only ONE ship really moving. Down by the bottom right hand side of the screen and crossing almost straight to the center. Its one of the easier things to catch...much easier than it was to find Lucas(he was standing in profile...)


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## Trickstergod (May 19, 2005)

I think I'll hold off until I've had a second viewing to decide whether or not I want to give it a 6 or give it a 7. 

I think it's the best of the new trilogy and could possibly work as a weak addition to the original three movies. It was a lot of cool scenes interspersed with a number of bad ones. And for the most part, everyone needed to shut their cry holes. The dialogue was pretty bad at times - it didn't sound natural. It sounded scripted. 

It also did the impossible - it made lightsaber battles bad. How can you even do that?! 

Oh well. 

With that said, I think Anakin becomes a good deal more three dimensional and his fall makes some sense, and in a tragic sort of way. I felt for the Jedi - though that might be, in part, because I was already familiar with them from the Clone Wars cartoons. Nameless Jedi going down is one thing, but having some idea about who they are changes things a bit. 

Visually, it's spectacular. The CGI characters don't look anywhere near as bad as they have in other movies. The arena scene in Attack of the Clones made me think, "Gee, look at all those new toys rolling off the screen and onto the shelves," but I didn't get that sense here. I enjoyed many of the battles. 

So, yeah. Seen it. About a 6 or 7. It's about what should have been expected out of the movie after the Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones.


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## Wereserpent (May 19, 2005)

SPOILERS





Spoiler



Anybody else realize that Plapatine ultimately screwed himself over by telling Vader that he had killed Padme in his anger?  Because if he had not and Palpatine had said Padme might still be alive(even though she wasnt) Vader might have gone looking for her, and then found out about his children and then found them and who knows what would have happened.  But since Palpatine told Vader that Vader had killed Padme, Vader did not go looking for her.


----------



## NiTessine (May 19, 2005)

In honour of Finland's Eurovision Song Contest entry, I give this movie zero points.

And really, Geir Rönning's performance is the better of the two. At least it only wastes a few minutes of the watcher's time. The movie was like a bad D&D game, with tired players who can't immerse themselves in character and an immature DM who railroads his favourite plot without regard for logic, the characters, or the internal consistency of the setting.

I could go on for a bit about this, but I broke my SoD button around halfway through the movie and must go get a new one.


----------



## Digital M@ (May 19, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> this is insane. people bash and bash phantom menace. which at the very least has one of the best fight scenes in movie history. they think attack of the clones is ok even though its not. and they love this piece of trash?
> 
> yikes.
> 
> ...






I think you missed something, maybe you should see the movie again when you are more alert.


----------



## stevelabny (May 19, 2005)

please. enlighten me.
what did i miss?


----------



## fett527 (May 19, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Interesting that the scene in question didn't work for you.  It totally rocked me.  The Vader helmet-view and seeing for one quick moment that Anakin was a bit scared and didn't like what he had become was telling.  Seeing him stumble, like a newborn animal,  showed that he had to grow into his new legs and had become a completely different person: no longer Anakin.  The scream was chilling and at the same time sad.  I could see that this was the same character who from now on took nothing from no one and lived to further his own causes no matter the cost.
> 
> I can see how some could see it at cheezy but it really worked for me.  Especially considering the scene before it where we see him burning alive and abandoned.  And the next thing he learns is that all he lived for, the purpose for his killing rage and sacrifice of morals was for nothing and he failed.  Again, and this time worse than before.
> 
> Honestly, I can't get that scene out of my head.




I did mean the specific part where he is raised after the helmet is donned.  I LOVED everything up to that point.  The faceplate coming down on Anakin, the perfect sounds of the helmet sealing, the first breaths of the respirator.  Then it dies for me.  The lead up was awesome.


----------



## Orius (May 19, 2005)

I give it an "8".  It was pretty good, but it felt rushed in spots.  I think Lucas tried to squeeze a bit too much into it.  The fight on Kashyyyk for example felt more or less unnecessary (even though Wookiees rock); it seemed only like an excuse to get Yoda off Curuscant so Palpatine could miss him when wiping out the Jedi.  But otherwise, it worked very well, and fits the prequels together with the original films well.


----------



## Klaus (May 19, 2005)

Just one question...

Does it answer why it's a good idea to hide Luke away and still have him carry the name Skywalker?

'cause that ain't smart, Ben!


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 19, 2005)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Just one question...
> 
> Does it answer why it's a good idea to hide Luke away and still have him carry the name Skywalker?
> 
> 'cause that ain't smart, Ben!



 Sort of...at least, in the sense that placing him on Tatooine will be a planet safe from the Sith, so it can be figured from there that its not important to change his name.

Bah, blame Owen and Beru Lars for not renaming the kid, not Obi-Wan!


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (May 19, 2005)

I give this film a rare 10.  That means, I'm rating it even higher than Fellowship of the Ring.
  Although Lucas may not have made his point about the whys as good as he could have, he made his point about CONSEQUENCES with devastating effect.


----------



## RangerWickett (May 19, 2005)

Allow me to draw a comparison to another bad movie.

Have you ever listened to the director's commentary on the D&D movie?  You should; it's funny. It's funny because the director obviously has no idea how to tell a story.  He talks about cutting a scene where one character actually tells us what his name is because he felt the pacing was too slow.  Now, if you've watched the D&D movie, you know that they spend less than a minute on the average scene.  What the movie needed was to slow down, and if the director couldn't fit all the cool things he wanted into the movie, he should have cut the unnecessary things.

Add a few lines here or there, a few extra moments of consideration and reaction to Revenge of the Sith, and you have a workable movie. You couldn't actually have a _good_ movie unless you had good acting.  Now sure, as an action film it's not expected to have incredible acting, but Pirates of the Carribean had much more nuanced acting, as did Fellowship of the Ring. Ewan MacGregor is a good actor, and he was the only character I actually cared about as I watched this movie.

The long slow scene where Anakin looks out the window of the Jedi council chamber, and across the city Padme looks out her window, was a good scene. We know Anakin is considering what he might lose, and the slow pacing gives us a chance to feel for him. So when he goes to aid Palpatine, we've actually had some emotional build-up.

The rest of the movie is just too fast. Too many times we have a 1-minute scene, cut to another 1 minute scene, then cut back to the last scene.  Why not just linger on the one scene, letting the emotion play out instead of jumping around?

But hey, I'm flexible. You can have mediocre acting if you at least have compelling storytelling.

1. When Obi-Wan is preparing to leave, he tells Anakin to be patient. The council will eventually make him a master. If you add, "It is better to earn something than to take it," and you'd have a great, tragic parting line which Anakin can ignore.

2. Like another poster mentioned, add a scene with Padme confronting her old friend, Senator turned Chancellor and soon-to-be-Emperor Palpatine. Give her _something_ to do.

3. Instead of yet another scene of Anakin telling Padme he won't let her die, show how dependent Anakin is on the woman he thinks he loves. She's scared of all his talk of her dying, so she says she wants to go home and get away from all this, and Anakin panics, terrified of not having her around. If you look at the relationship, Anakin really is an emotionally-abusive husband, using his wife as a trophy to make himself feel like his wife is worthwhile. We need to feel the pain that this abuse causes Padme, but she really just seems confused.  Confused is not compelling.

4. On Mustafar, Obi-Wan should offer Anakin forgiveness, and ask him to come back to the jedi. Then Anakin throws the offer back in Obi-Wan's face, saying he feels the jedi are evil, and that Obi-Wan should join with him. Refusing an offer of forgiveness makes Anakin actually seem like he's accepted who he is. Since Anakin's the villain, and Obi-Wan is the sympathetic character, this helps us better feel his betrayal, since we see he does all he can to save Anakin.  I would rather have seen this than Anakin talking about overthrowing Palpatine -- it's too early in Vader's life to think of overthrowing his 'trusted friend' the Emperor.

5. Evil should not jog. Evil should not whimper. Evil, especially the evil of the Emperor, the Dark Lord of the Sith, should be frightening. When Grievous's cruiser is having gravity problems, seeing Palpatine running to safety is embarrassing. This man is in control of _everything_. He should stride purposefully, fearlessly, imposingly. 

Later, in the fight with Windu, he should have been abusive to Anakin to make him attack Windu.  Something like, "Skywalker, do not be a coward! Don't let this one command you! If you are truly my ally, you will strike him down. Or would you rather continue to be the council's lackey?" Palpatine should be defiant, even when facing down death. He knows he can take Windu, but he wants Anakin to turn.

In the final fight with Yoda, Palpatine jumped around too much. It's okay for one old wrinkly guy (Yoda) to bust out with force jumps, but Palpatine should have had a different schtick. Hell, I would have been okay with him flying and zapping Yoda with lightning, like some sort of lich. But I didn't want to see Palpatine leap around. I wanted him to be imposing, to be a worthy villain for _an entire galaxy._ He wasn't.

Finally, evil should not have a dimpled forehead. The make-up was too . . . Twilight Zone "Eye of the Beholder" for my tastes.

6. As above, except for Vader. True, Anakin does a good job sometimes with being frightening and powerful, but I got the sense that Grievous was a more dangerous foe. Hans Christian Anderson did a good job with intense glares during combat, but just a smidgen more oomph in his swordfight would have been nice.  This is minor, but I really wanted the Anakin/Kenobi fight to be better than Darth Maul's. Instead, they wasted the Duel of Fates music on Yoda and Palpatine, which really wasn't as interesting.

7. One last request. This might have redeemed the movie at the end.  Okay, so Anakin becomes Vader, and Palpatine tells him Amidala is dead, and Anakin gives a very un-Vader-like (and un-James Earl Jones-like) cry of "Noooo!"  Now imagine if the scene had lingered for a moment longer.

Vader is kneeling, looking down at his new, inhuman body. He takes one slow breath, slumps slightly, then takes another breath, looking broken. And then with his next deep, mechanical breath, he straightens and stands. We can almost hear a growl in his breathing. 

"Anakin Skywalker has lost all he ever loved. It has all betrayed him, all died. Now there is nothing left but the power of the dark side of The Force. There is nothing left but Vader."

And we can fade out with the Emperor quietly cackling. Roll credits.

_That_ would have been an ending I could love.



I guess I'm just not a Star Wars fanboy. I wanted a compelling story, not eyecandy and inane catering to my geekiness. I gave it a 3.


----------



## ShinHakkaider (May 20, 2005)

Just to start, for me: 

Star Wars: 9 
The Empire Strikes Back: 9.5 
Return of the Jedi: 6 (The first half of this movie is almost PERFECT. It's after they rescue Han from Jabba it nose dives into the potty.) 
Phantom Menace: 2 (Pod Race and the final duel were the only things that I liked from this movie. Otherwise, Bantha Poodo)
Attack of the Clones: 6 (The Jedi battle on Geonosis was enough to give this movie a 5 rating) 
Revenge of the SIth: 6.5

ROTS was a disappointment. 
Structurally the movie is pretty sound. Some people complain about the appearance of the Wookies and how there was no need for them to be in the film. And I agree to an extent, but the bottom line is that they served a purpose, the are what drew Yoda away from the Jedi Temple. For the sake of the story he needed to be elswhere. 

My biggest beef with this movie (aside from the lightsaber duels, which were pretty weak) is that I couldnt buy Anakin's conversion. Funny, becasue I totally bought Palpatines mind games and thought that of all of the characters, Palpatine came off the best. Hayden's portrayal of Anakins conflict was convincing, but his actual turning I didnt buy. And the movie pretty much hinged on that for me. Let me make it clear once again, the EMOTIONAL strugle was handled very well and the interplay between Palpatine and Anakin is very good. You can see Anakin struggling to work things out in a way that hurts no one, but in the end benefits him, but it's when he had to make that fatal choice, I didnt buy that moment. It seemed forced and unneccesarily so. 

Good things:
I'm really not a fan of cutesy moments, but Artoo totally HANDLED those droids at the beginning. 

The opening is probably the best opening of any Star Wars film ever. I'm talking from the opening shot to the time they land on Coruscant. 

Dooku's Fate. D00d, HARSH.

Obi Wan's solution to dealing with the Grevious. 

"Are you here to help us master Anakin?" and Anakin's response. 

Obi-Wan's parting Words to Padme just before he leaves her apartment. 

Palpatine. 

I know that I listed a few things that I did like, but overall I was let down. There were moments that shone on an emotional level for me but Lucas didnt take it far enough for my tastes. You could virtually see scenes that were begging for a better director who has a guiding hand for actors. 

Thing I hated: 

The lightsaber duels, all of them. 

Vader's "scream" of anguish.

Grevious. (He was soooooooo bad ass in the Clone Wars series. In the movie? Straight punk. 

The Palpatine Yoda fight. Meh. 

The "reason" Padme dies. 

Ugh. This movie could have been so much better. It was ok, but it really could have been glorious.


----------



## Greylock (May 20, 2005)

Starting to think the Wookie yodel was in my head. No one else has mentioned it.

Solid 5 from me. It doesn't suck on every level, yet it's nowhere as good as folks are saying. I liked many parts, but not the whole.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 20, 2005)

Greylock said:
			
		

> Starting to think the Wookie yodel was in my head. No one else has mentioned it.




I didn't mention it because its nothing new. Obviously, its a Wookie tradition when swinging onto enemy vehicles.


----------



## Testament (May 20, 2005)

George Lucas is a great storyteller.  Too bad he's such a bad film maker.

Lets face it, Ian McDiarmid grabbed this film, and ran off with it in its entirety.  His wonderfully Mephistopheles-like performance as Palpatine was the best thing about this film, save the final confrontation between Obi-Wan and Anakin.

My main beef is the same one with ALL 6 Star Wars films.  As Harrison Ford said "you can write this, but you can't say it!".  The dialogue is as stilted as ever, and while he might have improved by leaps and bounds with what he gave to Ewan McGregor and Hayden Christensen, poor Samuel L Jackson and Natalie Portman had NOTHING to work with whatsoever.  Once again, the character of Padme went to waste entirely, save to be the sacrificial lamb and mother of the twins.

Like many others, I felt that the fatal moment, when Anakin sides with Palpatine against the Jedi, was quite weak.  The ceremony afterwards, and the interplay between the manipulative senator and the hopelessly misguided young Anakin were fantastic, but that moment needed to be convincing.  It wasn't.

My other big beef is that the pacing and structure is terrible, not as bad as AotC, but still an annoyance.  In the middle of an exciting section, they cut to scheming or Anakin/Padme, and completely ruin the moment, rather than letting anything run its course.  It is way too short for the amount Lucas is trying to cover, and could easily do with an extra hour.

And am I the only one who found the scene where Vader undergoes his cybernetic metamorphosis into Darth Vader to be PURE Frankenstein?


----------



## Greylock (May 20, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> I didn't mention it because its nothing new.




Dang. I don't remember it before. But then, the only films in the series I've watched repeatedly are Star Wars and TESP. Episodes I & II I've only seen once each. And ages ago.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 20, 2005)

Greylock said:
			
		

> Dang. I don't remember it before. But then, the only films in the series I've watched repeatedly are Star Wars and TESP. Episodes I & II I've only seen once each. And ages ago.



 It was originally in Jedi when Chewie and the two Ewoks swing ontop of the AT-ST. Hearing it in Sith brought a smile to my face.

Cheesy? Of course! But it was a just another of those nice little touches connecting the movies together.


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## spider_minion (May 20, 2005)

I gave it a 10!

I'm no Star Wars fanboy.  I was underwhelmed by episode 1, and episode 2 could have been a bit better.  But once Dooku met his end I really got absorbed into the movie.  I really appreciated the whole plot about the democracy being turned into a dictatorship . . . after all, Hitler never broke the law in his rise to power--he just changed the laws to suit his own purposes.  And then there what's going on in the US . . .

On a different level, I liked seeing Choobaka's brief cameo.  I wish he had more screen time.  And General Grevious was da man.  He's crafty, sneaky, and robotic . . . all admirable traits.  Yoda wasn't too goofy, and Jar Jar got the right amount of screen time. The darker tone really drove the experience home.

If I watched Episode III with greater scrutiny I could probably found a few scenes I didn't like.  But looking at the big picture, there arn't many futuristic fantasy epics around that are this good.  I will resist the urge to bash Lucas, and instead fully appreciate this fine film!

EDIT: I almost forgot . . . I feel like watching the original trilogy.


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## John Crichton (May 20, 2005)

Testament said:
			
		

> And am I the only one who found the scene where Vader undergoes his cybernetic metamorphosis into Darth Vader to be PURE Frankenstein?



Certainly.  And I will be surprised if Lucas doesn't acknowledge that in an interview or on the DVD.  Actually, I think he may have somewhere in the recent past but I have no proof of that.  He's always been a fan of the classics.


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## Michael Tree (May 20, 2005)

SPOILERS

I gave it a 9.  The first half had the primary problem of Ep.II - it was just a bunch of aimless running around and pointless fights with droids.  But the ending was good enough to make up for that mediocrity.

I found the Palpatine vs. Jedi fight particularly chilling, for a reason I can't quite pin down.  Palpatine's fighting style just felt alien and _wrong_, in an entirely right way for a Sith lord.

I also particularly loved the mind-wiping of 3P0, but not R2.  It's as we've suspected all along.


			
				Trickstergod said:
			
		

> It also did the impossible - it made lightsaber battles bad. How can you even do that?!



Easy: Make them too fast, without much maneuvering or variety.  They were all quick blurs of swordstrokes between two opponents standing next to each other.  They didn't have the fun martial arts or physical maneuvering of the Ep.I duel, nor the cool structured elegance of  the Ep.II Jedi battles.  They were just blurs of quick swordstrokes.



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> The long slow scene where Anakin looks out the window of the Jedi council chamber, and across the city Padme looks out her window, was a good scene. We know Anakin is considering what he might lose, and the slow pacing gives us a chance to feel for him. So when he goes to aid Palpatine, we've actually had some emotional build-up.



Right, and there were a few other masterfully shot an paced scenes in the movie.  The betrayal and purge of the Jedi montage was gorgeously done, as was the intercut birth scene and masking of Vader.  (Not surprisingly, the best scenes are ones without much dialogue). The cutting on the whole was was too quick though, as you mentioned.  Lucas also occasionally falls back into "telling, not showing" a few times.



> 7. One last request. This might have redeemed the movie at the end.  Okay, so Anakin becomes Vader, and Palpatine tells him Amidala is dead, and Anakin gives a very un-Vader-like (and un-James Earl Jones-like) cry of "Noooo!"  Now imagine if the scene had lingered for a moment longer.
> 
> Vader is kneeling, looking down at his new, inhuman body. He takes one slow breath, slumps slightly, then takes another breath, looking broken. And then with his next deep, mechanical breath, he straightens and stands. We can almost hear a growl in his breathing.
> 
> ...



I don't like the dialogue you wrote there, and I like the way the movie actually did end, 
but I definitely agree that the scene should have lingered longer.  If would have been perfect even if he just collects himself, then stands up straight and tall as his breathing becomes deeper and steadier, and calmly but menacingly walks away, so we can see the final death of Anakin and the birth of Vader as we all know him.


----------



## Steve Jung (May 20, 2005)

I give it a 6.

I didn't like it, although all those I went with did. The first part was terrible. The slide from Republic to Empire was more like a steep drop. And plot holes abounded. The vehicles and starships looked silly. The Republic starfighters with the s-foils. What do the foils do? There aren't weapons on the wingtips. And the assault boats the droids used on Kashyyk. C'mon, paddleboats, like a Mississippi steamship?


----------



## Flyspeck23 (May 20, 2005)

A solid 7 for me. While there are better (yet similar) movies to be seen, especially in recent years, I enjoyed RotS much more than any other of the prequels.

Favorites:
- Obi-Wan and the blaster pistol
- Yoda and Chewbacca knowing each other
- Grievous and the four lightsabers (didn't watch Clone Wars though, so I can't compare)
- the death of Count Dooku
- Clonetroopers killing the Jedis (the kid defending Senator Organa was a nice twist)
- the opening battle (and the trademark "I've a bad feeling about this.")
- all those nods to the classic trilogy

Dislikes:
- Anakin's and Padme's dialogue on the balcony
- Obi-Wan's mount
- Anakin turning to the Dark Side and slaughtering younglings mere moments later
- Obi-Wan leaving Anakin to suffer

The ending could've been better. Vader's mask somehow didn't look as good as in the classic trilogy (I _think_ the faceplate was too small compared to the whole helmet), and the buttons on the chest looked a little _too_ 70s. And the last scene is "Owen Lars impersonates Luke Skywalker"... huh?




			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Hans Christian Anderson did a good job with intense glares during combat, but just a smidgen more oomph in his swordfight would have been nice.




It's a fairy tale


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## fett527 (May 20, 2005)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> ...7. One last request. This might have redeemed the movie at the end.  Okay, so Anakin becomes Vader, and Palpatine tells him Amidala is dead, and Anakin gives a very un-Vader-like (and un-James Earl Jones-like) cry of "Noooo!"  Now imagine if the scene had lingered for a moment longer.
> 
> Vader is kneeling, looking down at his new, inhuman body. He takes one slow breath, slumps slightly, then takes another breath, looking broken. And then with his next deep, mechanical breath, he straightens and stands. We can almost hear a growl in his breathing.
> 
> ...




While I don't agree with the rest of your critique, this is exactly what I was talking about in this scene.


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## Ycore Rixle (May 20, 2005)

I gave it a 9.

This was a super movie.

Like JohnCrichton, I can't get the final image of Anakin rising as Vader, and losing Padme, out of my head.


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## WanderingMonster (May 20, 2005)

I gave it an 8.

Ironically, it was the schlocky scenes during the first 1/2 of the movie (especially when Anakin and Padme were alone) that required the most suspension of disbelief in RoTS.  Aside from that, I liked this movie.


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## diaglo (May 20, 2005)

WanderingMonster said:
			
		

> I gave it an 8.
> 
> Ironically, it was the schlocky scenes during the first 1/2 of the movie (especially when Anakin and Padme were alone) that required the most suspension of disbelief in RoTS.  Aside from that, I liked this movie.





me too.

didn't see nor feel the love.


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## Krug (May 20, 2005)

After 117 votes, an average score of 7.70.


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## Desdichado (May 20, 2005)

Krug said:
			
		

> After 117 votes, an average score of 7.70.



Which is enough to get rid of the outlier fanboys, and the outlier naysayers, and approaches something like a consensus!


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## sniffles (May 20, 2005)

I prefer an A, B, C, D form of rating to numbers, so under that system I'd give it a B.  

I am still convinced that George Lucas cannot write good dialog, except for the occasional humorous line.  Some of the dialog was cringe-inducing.  He's also a master of making events fit his overarcing story and logic be damned; i.e., they have bacta fluid and droids in the Star Wars universe, but apparently they don't have ultrasound, because Padme didn't know she was having twins.   

But I have to say I'm always impressed when a filmmaker is willing to make a film that doesn't have a happy ending.  Yes, we know there's a happy ending on the way, but that's three more films down the line.  This film isn't happy.  The bad guys win.  Most of the good guys die.  The battle against evil is lost, although the war isn't over yet.  I like it when a movie does that.


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## Edena_of_Neith (May 20, 2005)

What is the median score now?  We know the average;  what is the median?


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## Zaukrie (May 20, 2005)

I gave it an 8. I think a 7 is a better score though. My biggest problem was making Padme into a girly girl. My wife and I really hated that part. She should have confronted the emporer, or started the rebellion, or something, anything. Turning into a pregnant damsel in distress was annoying.

I found the movie to be fun. That's why I gave it an 8 and not a 7 (a 3 for dialogue). I really had fun. For those of you with young kids, I took my 7 and 9 year old boys. It was their first time seeing that kind of movie in the theatre, though they've memorized the first 5 movies. They handled it just fine.


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## Frilf (May 20, 2005)

Wow. It's a 7 in a world where I was hoping for it to be more of an 8 or 9 (Lucas is incapable of perfection, try as he may not). What follows is my rationale (like anyone cares), and there are SPOILERS below, so if you haven't seen it yet - suffice it to say that I felt it was a solid "7" - far better than Eps I & II.

OVERALL VISUALS - Incredible! You've never seen anything like it - just incredible!

OPENING FIGHT - Right on! Classic Star Wars. This got the film off to a rollicking start and raised my hopes. Then... the death of Dooku. Give me a break!

GEN. GRIEVOUS - Grievous was cool (esp. the lightsaber thing later on - awesome!), but he was a bit too wheezy for my taste. Come on! Is he a first-rate butt-kicker or in serious need of an inhaler? I also thought HE was dispatched too easily, but that's standard Lucas (see Dooku, Mace Windu, Boba Fett, Jango Fett, Darth Maul, etc., for further proof of this). 

MACE WINDU - Um. Not sure what happened here. I guess Lucas just didn't know what to do with the character. Offed like a chump.

OTHER MISC. JEDI - Also offed like chumps. I would think that Jedi Masters would sense something wrong with the Force and be able to fend off multiple clone troopers at least for a few minutes - not get shot in the back like dogs! Arrgh. And wouldn't it have been better if Dooku/Grievous/Vader did the killing instead? Why do the generic clones get the honors? Aren't they the chorus in this space opera? I digress.

ANAKIN/PADME - Wooden and awkward, but less so than Episode II.

YODA - Cool, cool, cool. The fight with Darth Sidious is fun!

FIGHT ON THE VOLCANO PLANET - Wicked cool! Nice effects. Anakin is torched! Nice!

BIRTH OF VADER - In five seconds, Lucas dashes everyone's opinion of Darth Vader as the ultimate baddie. All I can say here is "Noooooooo!" Pass the cheese. Peee-yoosah!

Those are some of the highlights and lowlights (as I saw them) of Episode III. Overall, it's worth seeing, but I felt it was far from satisfying on several fronts. When I see it again, maybe my opinion will change somewhat. Who knows? For my money, though, Lucas should have left the original triology as its own thing and renamed the Episodes I-III (or not have Episode monikers at all). Here's hoping they stop and don't make Eps. VII-IX unless Lucas hires someone else to write and direct them.

Cheers!


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## Sammael (May 20, 2005)

Seems like there's an awful lot of limb-cutting in the movie for such young boys to handle... let's see:

Count Dooku: both hands, then head (off-screen)
Mace Windu: hand
General Grievous: two arms 
Darth Vader: other hand and both legs, followed up by terrible burns

Did I miss any?


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## qstor (May 20, 2005)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> This movie could have been so much better. It was ok, but it really could have been glorious.




I agree, I gave it a 7. 

The Windu/Sidious battle was pretty good but the ending wasn't that great for the battle. Mace should have been aware that the force lighting might come again.

I didn't have a problem with the Wookies. For me it was the flow of the movie, too much cutting back and forth. I didnt get the feeling that 9 months for the pregnancy had gone by more like 2 weeks at most. 

Christopher's Lee and scenes were too short. And as media film reviewers have mentioned Lucas STILL can't write romantic dialogue.

Good parts, seeing new planets and the shots and colors were great! I loved the shots of Alderran and the lava flows. Thos looked fantastic. The opening space battle and the light saber fight between Windu and Sidious.

Mike


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## wingsandsword (May 20, 2005)

I gave it a 10.  It was everything the final Star Wars movie was supposed to be.  This was the geeks dream, and everything the fanboys wanted from the prequels.

The Clone Wars come to an end in a incredible battle, Check.
The Emperor rises to power, Check (Bonus Fanboy points for stating that Palpatine knows the secret of immortality, validating the Dark Empire comics).
The Jedi are wiped out, Check (Bonus Fanboy points for not negating the Expanded Universe, they left in loopholes for some Jedi to survive)
Mace Windu gets his Blaze of Glory, Check
Anakin has a believable fall to the Dark Side, Check.
Huge, over-the-top duel between Anakin/Vader and Obi-Wan, Check and then some.
Tying up all the loose ends, Check.
Explaining the appearance of Force Ghosts, Check

Bonus points for the Yoda/Palpatine duel (and Yoda just knocking out the Royal Guards with one wave was spiffy too).
Bonus points for Kashyyyk.  A fan favorite planet gets shown.
Bonus points for R2, he was cool.
Bonus points for the Tantive IV, another good tie-in with the OT.
Bonus points for not pulling punches with the younglings (I sat next to two young kids and their mom who brought them to a midnight show, those kids were terrified when anakin flicked on his saber).

So the dialog was wooden, Star Wars always was, and I thought this one was better than usual.  Star Wars was always supposed to be action-packed two-fisted epic tales as a reincarnation of old serials.  This movie was everything it was supposed to be, and it did far exceeded expectations.


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 20, 2005)

Watched it. Loved it. In my opinion, it was probably the best of the six.

I had a few questions afterwords though:

1. I got the impression that Darth Plagus was Sideous' master. So, Sideous knew the secrets of immortality and creating life. Right? So did Sideous create Anakin? If so, why didn't Anakin react more to this revelation? "Anakin! I am your FATHER!"

2. Padme's death. Did she die simply bacause she didn't want to live (pretty selfish since she had two kids to raise) or because Sideous was keeping her alive?

3. The dreams. Real or planted by Sideous?

4. The Prophecy. What happened with this. I figure the Jedi misunderstood it as Yoda implied. Instead of killing the Sith, he estabolished a true balance. There were two Sith, and in the end, there were two Jedi.


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## GoodKingJayIII (May 20, 2005)

I really enjoyed it and gave it an 8.  I can sympathize with some of the woodness of the characters, though.  Mediocre writing and poor delivery make for some seriously painful dialogue, and neither Christensen or Portman can get it quite right when they're together.  McGregor is easily my favorite actor in the movie.  He and Christensen complement each other well, and when one of them delivers a line poorly the other helps out.  Also, as little as I like Christensen's acting, he definitely gets the most improved award.  I could sense much more of his character's conflict:  with the jedi and palpatine, with Obi-Wan, with Padme, even with himself.  Most importantly, the visuals were gorgeous:  the space battles, the duels, everything.  I liked the speed of the lightsabers.  I could feel and see Anakin's fury, and that's all I needed.  Also, Palpatine is an incredible villian, and though we don't see the full effect until this movie, his scheming and plotting puts him right in my Top 5, as far as I'm concerned.

I consider myself a big Star Wars fan, but grievances I have with this movie I could probably pinpoint in any one of the original trilogy.  They're campy sci-fi movies with mediocre acting and bad writing.  But the special effects have always been gorgeous, and the grand scheme of the movies has always been stellar.  Underneath the campiness is a good story, perhaps a little obscured, but by no means buried.


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## Dark Jezter (May 20, 2005)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> Watched it. Loved it. In my opinion, it was probably the best of the six.
> 
> I had a few questions afterwords though:
> 
> 1. I got the impression that Darth Plagus was Sideous' master. So, Sideous knew the secrets of immortality and creating life. Right? So did Sideous create Anakin? If so, why didn't Anakin react more to this revelation? "Anakin! I am your FATHER!"




I got that impression too.  The way that Palpatine spoke as he told it, almost as if he was reminiscing, gave me the impression that Darth Plagus was his own master before Palpatine killed him.



> 2. Padme's death. Did she die simply bacause she didn't want to live (pretty selfish since she had two kids to raise) or because Sideous was keeping her alive?




Yeah, that kinda disturbed me a little as well.  It's implied that Padme died from a broken heart because Anakin fell to the dark side (as the medical droid said "Medically she's perfectly healthy, but for reasons we don't understand we're losing her."), but you'd think that having children would give her something to cling to life for.



> 3. The dreams. Real or planted by Sideous?




I vote real, as they did end up coming true (even though Anakin probably could have prevented the death by not falling into evil).



> 4. The Prophecy. What happened with this. I figure the Jedi misunderstood it as Yoda implied. Instead of killing the Sith, he estabolished a true balance. There were two Sith, and in the end, there were two Jedi.




Actually, by bringing balance to the force, I think that it meant eliminating the sith.  In the end, it was Anakin/Vader (not Luke) who killed Palpatine.


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## Frilf (May 20, 2005)

Digital M@ said:
			
		

> This is my opinion as well.  IMO, he took two movies for basic setup and one movie focuses on what the whole trilogy should have focused on.  He could of had so much more depth to everything without kiddie Vader in Ep I.  It kinda makes me sad he missed the mark by so much.  I think maybe he had visions of certain scenes and created the movies around those visions instead of working one long story board up and then dividing it into three films.




Here's a possibility for what the prequels could have been, see if you think this is better:

The prequel trilogy (Eps I-III) begins when Anakin is accepted as a padawan under Obi-Wan (or even Qui-Gon) and goes forward from there. Events that were important in Anakin's backstory could be explored via flashbacks/nightmares, etc. In essence, expand the last half of _Revenge of the Sith _ (Anakin's fall) into a 3-movie story arc, where more character development is possible. We don't really need a lot of the material from Eps I-II as they are. We want to see how Anakin falls from being a decent person into the ultimate galactic bad-@$$. 

The following is bizarro history, but could have been interesting (at least in my little mind): A common villain (Palpatine) and his ONE apprentice (Darth Maul) could be the primary forces of evil behind the scenes in Eps I-III until Anakin turns evil and Darth Vader is realized in full (without the "NOOOOOO!"). Imagine a Vader/Maul showdown for who will continue as Darth Sidious' one and only apprentice.

Any thoughts? Rotten fruit?


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## Tyler Do'Urden (May 20, 2005)

I give it an 8.  I won't repeat my review/thoughts here, since I've already posted them on GenSit:

http://www.generationsit.org/archives/96


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## Desdichado (May 20, 2005)

Zaukrie said:
			
		

> For those of you with young kids, I took my 7 and 9 year old boys. It was their first time seeing that kind of movie in the theatre, though they've memorized the first 5 movies. They handled it just fine.



My wife and I were both thinking, "this ain't so bad; let's bring the kids again later this weekend," right up until Anakin burst into flames.  Then Julie leaned over to me and said, "the kids will _not_ be seeing that anytime soon!"  I regretted it, but she was right.


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## Mystery Man (May 20, 2005)

OK help me out here!

Mace and Emperor battle, my position is that the Emperor was playing helpless and could have put the wood to Mace anytime he wanted. He was just doing that to get Anakin to turn. 

Agree? Disagree?


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 20, 2005)

To be honest, it was those sorts of scenes that sealed it for me.

The scream of anguish Dooku let out when he lost his arms.
The Mace Windu's screams after he lost his arm and as he flew through the air.
The brutallity in which Anakin executed Newt Gunray. (I can't explain why, but it came across to me as extremely harsh.)
Anakin's screams after he lost his legs and began to burn.
When Anakin ignited his saber in the room with the Younglings.
The look of fear on Anakin's face (and the look of his horribly burned body in general) as they lowered the mask.

These tid-bits struck me as very powerful, emotional, and slightly distubing. I loved it! It was as it should be.


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 20, 2005)

Mystery Man said:
			
		

> OK help me out here!
> 
> Mace and Emperor battle, my position is that the Emperor was playing helpless and could have put the wood to Mace anytime he wanted. He was just doing that to get Anakin to turn.
> 
> Agree? Disagree?




I don't think the emperor could have defeated Mace with a lightsaber. I think he knew this, and his options became limited to using the Force directly or playing opossum. He knew he had more to gain by feining weakness.

What I'd like to know is why did he change? Was it a side effect of Mace blocking (redirecting?) his lightning or was it that he simply dropped his disguise?


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## Frilf (May 20, 2005)

Mystery Man said:
			
		

> OK help me out here!
> 
> Mace and Emperor battle, my position is that the Emperor was playing helpless and could have put the wood to Mace anytime he wanted. He was just doing that to get Anakin to turn.
> 
> Agree? Disagree?




I agree. It is well within Sidious' character to use such trickery for his own ends. If Anakin hadn't turned, Windu would have been killed by Palpatine - no question IMHO.


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## wingsandsword (May 20, 2005)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> 4. The Prophecy. What happened with this. I figure the Jedi misunderstood it as Yoda implied. Instead of killing the Sith, he estabolished a true balance. There were two Sith, and in the end, there were two Jedi.




The prophecy said he was supposed to "bring balance to the force" and "destroy the Sith."

Well, Anakin was the one who actually killed Palpatine, and thus destroyed the Sith.  You can argue back and forth about what "balance of the Force" means, but Anakin did eventually fulfil the prophecy about destroying the Sith, it just took about 23 years after he almost destroyed the Jedi and fell to the dark side.


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## fett527 (May 20, 2005)

Mystery Man said:
			
		

> OK help me out here!
> 
> Mace and Emperor battle, my position is that the Emperor was playing helpless and could have put the wood to Mace anytime he wanted. He was just doing that to get Anakin to turn.
> 
> Agree? Disagree?




Agree 100%, absolutely.


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## Jeremy (May 20, 2005)

Frilf said:
			
		

> GEN. GRIEVOUS - Grievous was cool (esp. the lightsaber thing later on - awesome!), but he was a bit too wheezy for my taste. Come on! Is he a first-rate butt-kicker or in serious need of an inhaler? I also thought HE was dispatched too easily, but that's standard Lucas (see Dooku, Mace Windu, Boba Fett, Jango Fett, Darth Maul, etc., for further proof of this).




In the Clone Wars micro series Mace crushed his chest plates into his lungs.  Thus the hunched over remnant of a Grievous we got in the movie.  His fighting was pathetic after his injury.  In the micro series Grievous was exceptionally intimidating, stealthy, and powerful taking on and killing multiple Jedi at the same time, and evading the attacks of clone commandos, a Jedi, and a fighter jet all at the same time.

The way Obi-Wan owned him was very sad.


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## Jeremy (May 20, 2005)

Galeros said:
			
		

> Anybody else realize that Plapatine ultimately screwed himself over by telling Vader that he had killed Padme in his anger? Because if he had not and Palpatine had said Padme might still be alive(even though she wasnt) Vader might have gone looking for her, and then found out about his children and then found them and who knows what would have happened. But since Palpatine told Vader that Vader had killed Padme, Vader did not go looking for her.




I think that it tied Vader to him for as long as it did.  Why would an all powerful self-serving Sith serve an inferior master for so long?  If he had the hope that she was alive and sought her out, or if she was alive, he would have tried to grant her the government she dreamed of in episode II.  If he found her dead and the kids, he would have had reason to live for himself and them and would again have taken down the emperor in his own rise to power.

But crushed like that, betrayed by all, and stripped of everything, he became naught but the hound of the Emperor until his son gave him something he cared about again.  And he destroys the Emperor...  The Emperor is doomed in any situation that Anakin has something to live for.


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## Zaukrie (May 20, 2005)

Joshua, I tried to tell my boys to look away, and they said "Dad, my friends told me all about it. I know what is going to happen". My boys have been very protected from violence, other than SW movies. No video games, they never ask for tv, just the SW movies. we've even kept them from Indiana Jones...and LoTR beyond the first 40 minutes of the first extended version. They had no bad dreams last night. Not trying to tell you how to raise your children, I would never do that to any parent. Just giving you context to my statement. Good luck either way. My 7 year old may never have spoken to me again (ha) had I not taken him. My 9 year old could have waited a week or 2. That said, I did lose the argument about taking them at midnight on a school night.

On the movie, why didn't Yoda and Obi-Wan stick together to kill the emporer, and then kill Darth/Anakin? In miniatures skirmish, the first thing you learn is that if you have 2 minis basing 2 equally powerful minis, concentrate your fire on one mini. then kill the other. While I really enjoyed the movie and had fun, I wish the jedi weren't so stupid militarily and tactically.


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## Mystery Man (May 20, 2005)

Zaukrie said:
			
		

> On the movie, why didn't Yoda and Obi-Wan stick together to kill the emporer, and then kill Darth/Anakin? In miniatures skirmish, the first thing you learn is that if you have 2 minis basing 2 equally powerful minis, concentrate your fire on one mini. then kill the other. While I really enjoyed the movie and had fun, I wish the jedi weren't so stupid militarily and tactically.




They're only as tactically smart as George Lucas.


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## The Serge (May 20, 2005)

_Star Wars:  Revenge of the Sith_ was the best of the prequel trilogies hands-down.  It's arguably a better movie than _Return of the Jedi_.  However, this does not completely absolve it from being a tremendous disappointment to many fans and it's not fantastic movie.  

Once again, Lucas reveals his ability to create great story foundations.  It's the twilight of the Jedi as the shroud of the Dark Side, represented by the mysterious and diabolical Sith, has cast a pall over a war that has been a tremendous waste on resources.  In the midst of this, the assumed Chosen One, prophesied to bring balance to the Force, has become a war hero.  Unfortunately, because he was never trained properly (and probably shouldn't have become a Jedi in the first place) he harbors a great deal of fear and frustration.  Although the most powerful Jedi, he's woefully inexperienced in accomodating the kind of aesthetic lifestyle the Jedi demand and indeed must have in order to be successful in their work: the ability to let go specific loves and likes in favor of greater loves.   His marriage to Senator Amidala is reflective of this.   The war has distracte the Jedi, notably Obi-Wan Kenobi, from seeing the very same hemorrhage in the Jedi Order affecting its most powerful representative.  Simultaneously, even as he effortlessly manipulates the Clone War and benefits from the inability for the Jedi to detect him, Darth Sideous manipulates Anakin, slowly destroying his feeble explanations for his status.  Now, the Phantom Menace is prepared to use the Dark Side to strangle the Republic after excising the Jedi.  Wow.  That's a great story and Lucas came up with it.

Unfortunately, as before, he has no idea how to execute it.  

Throughout this film, I was dismayed with the repeated wasted opportunities to see Anakin's slide to the Dark Side as something that was sensible in its tragedy.  In the original trilogy, we're constantly reminded how he was "seduced" by the Dark Side.  Seduction implies that he lusted after it, that there was a selfish and foolish desire involved.  Instead, what we get rather than a seduction is a foolish attempt to deny fate for a loved one in spite of what he knows is not the way to live the Jedi life.  Yes, we see his frustration in how he's treated by the Jedi Council, but his frustration doesn't seem nearly enough reason to turn against his former allies and mentors.  Yes, he wanted to save Padme, but his almost sudden shift -- despite his wariness of Palpatine -- didn't seem genuine at all (neither did his dedication to Padme, for that matter).  Instead of a reaonable, sensible descent into evil, we get a half-hearted, reluctant shift that does not really justify the level of venom he exhibits.  He slaughters all of these people reluctantly to save one person whom he turns around and almost kills...?!    

Speaking of Padme, how is it that this strong woman deteriorates into a mewling, pathetic, weak woman who is completely impotent when it comes to helping Anakin?  She spends half this movie crying only to meet her destiny like a spineless weakling.  Oh come on!  Lucas completely raped that character of her dignity and self-reliance.  She was window dressing and nothing more, a terrible fate for what appeared to be an interesting character in the previous prequel installments.

Aside from the illogic of the rise of Darth Vader, we also have the atrocious dialogue again.  Yes, the dialogue in this film was better than AotC and arguably on par with TPM.  This is not an achievement by any stretch of the imagination because it only required that Lucas use the spelling and grammar check on his PC to fix up the garbage he wrote during the last go around.  The lines are still largely flat the emotional outbursts inconsistent and almost embaressing.  We cannot and should not blame the actors.  Christensen and Portman are fine actors with terrible dialogue to deliver under a less than inspiring director.  They're young and can be excused for not breathing life into their deliveries.  However, I fear that if he's not careful, Christensen's career may be irrevocably damaged by these films, a real shame.

That said, I think that there were a number of good things in this film.  The action was far closer to what we experienced with the original trilogy.  There was a lot of good stuff happening and the exposition (sans the actual dialogue) was genuinely good.  Unlike others, I had no problem with General Grievous or Darth Tyranus.  They're like the villains from the previous trilogy.  Aside from Vader and maybe Grand Moff Tarkin, none of the other villains were all that.  The only thing that made Jabba the Hutt bigger than he's cracked up to beis that he didn't bodily appear until RotJ (if one ignores his absolutely idiotic addition to ANH).  Bobba Fett had all of 20 words in TESB.  Maul, Tyranus, and Grievous were all along the same lines and served as precursors for Vader.  

The sabre fights were generally pretty good, although I was underwhelmed with the much hyped fight between Vader and Kenobi.  I think the best fights were Tyranus vs. Skywalker and Kenobi and then Sidious vs. Windu (and the others).  

In the end, RotS was a disappointment if you went in allowing the hype that surrounded it to affect you.  It's also a disappointment in that it revealed, once and for all, that Lucas has not grown as a director or writer.  He has grown as a man able to push the technology and marketing of the industry to greater heights.  But, he's barely a competent craftsman much less an artist when it comes to quality storytelling and characterization.  What could have been a powerful, yet action packed drama, deteriorated into an essentially empty spectacle of light and sound.  The human elements, which could have been rich in their tragedy and pathos, were degenerated into empty platitudes and cliches.

I give _Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith_ a 6.  It's not a bad movie.  It's just not a great movie.  Unlike ANH, it didn't retell a fairy tale in a new element while redefining movie making.  Unlike TESB, it didn't have a strong story delivery with quality dialogue.  If you look at it objectively, you'll realize that it's on par in many ways with the other films that so many of us claim to love.  And I know that after I convince myself to recognize that at the subconscious level, I'll be fine.  Until then, I'll be disappointed for a while.

Now, I need to figure out when I'll see it again at a theatre with a digital projector.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 20, 2005)

Frilf said:
			
		

> Any thoughts? Rotten fruit?




Honestly?  While I disliked most of episode one and thought it could have been attached to episode II (which could then have been expanded upon) I see your plan as rotten fruit...  

I love the fact that Palpatine used everyone as tools…  Even Vader was a tool.  If Luke had turned he quickly would have replaced him without ceremony…   (Or at least without much, I think Palpatine did honestly consider Vader a friend... though I use the term loosely in regard to Palpatine whom I doubt ever has a true friend.)

It was interesting to see Palpatine fret over the broken body of Vader…  It was probably the first time in a long time that he didn’t have the next apprentice lined up.


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## CrusaderX (May 20, 2005)

I just saw the film, and loved it.  I give it a solid 9 rating, and it compares favorably to A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back.  My faith in Star Wars has been restored.


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## John Crichton (May 20, 2005)

Zaukrie said:
			
		

> On the movie, why didn't Yoda and Obi-Wan stick together to kill the emporer, and then kill Darth/Anakin? In miniatures skirmish, the first thing you learn is that if you have 2 minis basing 2 equally powerful minis, concentrate your fire on one mini. then kill the other. While I really enjoyed the movie and had fun, I wish the jedi weren't so stupid militarily and tactically.



Not enough time.  It was said in the film that they had to move quickly to stop the Sith.  The only way to stop the Jedi Order from being destroyed and Palpatine staying in power was to arrest/kill him right away.  And Obi-wan had to leave when Padme did to find Anakin - he had no choice in the matter.


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## Frilf (May 20, 2005)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> In the Clone Wars micro series Mace crushed his chest plates into his lungs.  Thus the hunched over remnant of a Grievous we got in the movie.  His fighting was pathetic after his injury...The way Obi-Wan owned him was very sad.




Yeah. Missed the Clone Wars series, so I didn't know about the Windu-Grievous thing. He (Grievous) still should have put up a better fight against Obi-Wan, though...


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## John Crichton (May 20, 2005)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> I don't think the emperor could have defeated Mace with a lightsaber. I think he knew this, and his options became limited to using the Force directly or playing opossum. He knew he had more to gain by feining weakness.
> 
> What I'd like to know is why did he change? Was it a side effect of Mace blocking (redirecting?) his lightning or was it that he simply dropped his disguise?



I'm thinking that it was because he dropped his disguise.  The face was certainly distorted in the holo-net transmissions.  It was we'll timed as it probably took concentration to keep the charade going.  Not having to do it in public was probably a relief.  Simply being a Sith Lord for as long as he was would have made him look like that pretty quickly.

But, I wouldn't be surprised if the force lightening really did disfigure him.


----------



## Jeremy (May 20, 2005)

I give it a 5.5. Round up to a 6 for the poll I guess.

Things I didn't like:

*Vader's "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!" *
Whiny Vader sucks. Angry Vader is ok. Menacing Vader would have been much better.

*Wookies talking to each other.*
Very lamely done. Especially after Republic Commando handled Tarful so well. If you want to see an interesting wookie (albeit a very evil one) see Hanharr.

*When the troopers took their helmets off and there were more than a few of them around.*
They did multiple Agent Smith's incredibly well. But these guys looked horrible. I've seen overcut duplicates of people done better on TV and this is ing ILM!

*Padme.*
Just about everything about Padme.

*The fact that Obi-Wan was the only competent looking Jedi.*
Including Mace who talks about not trusting the I-wear-all-black Anakin, SEES him wavering, and then is totally blind sided when Anakin moves to stop him. What happened to seeing a fight a couple seconds into the future? I wouldn't have a problem with the Emperor and Annakin together overpowering Windu. Or even Annakin beating him. Anything but 'oops! I lost my arm.' That sucked.

*The Clone Wars animated series did a much better job with the action than the movies did. *
Grievous was ing intimidating in the animated series. Admittedly, Windu really put the hurt on him. But here he's always hunched over and running and even when he busts out the 4 arms he doesn't do anything but get his hands chopped off.

*Something about Jimmy Smits I'm forgetting really bothered me at the time.*

*The lightsaber fights in general.*
My favorite Jedi remains Qui-Gon and his fights with Maul remain the best saber duels I've seen. Windu's handling of the saber was pathetic.

****

But like I said. 5.5 A few more things I liked than I didn't like. So for all those bad things there were equally as many good things and a few more. But I'm too venemous at this particular moment to give them their due. For good prequel plot and dialog, please see the Clone Wars animated series (Season 1, but especially Season 2), and the Star Wars Republic Commando game.


----------



## John Crichton (May 20, 2005)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> 1. I got the impression that Darth Plagus was Sideous' master. So, Sideous knew the secrets of immortality and creating life. Right? So did Sideous create Anakin? If so, why didn't Anakin react more to this revelation? "Anakin! I am your FATHER!"



This debate has been raging on other boards and I have stayed away.  The implication that Plagus was his master and created Anakin will be debated for years and is the great mystery of this movie.  Palpatine also says that he doesn't know how to save Padme but with Anakin's help they could find the secret.  He could have been lying but if we take him at face value than Palpatine couldn't have created him, but maybe Plagus did.

I'll have to see the movie again to make a firm choice of which side I fall on.



			
				Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> 2. Padme's death. Did she die simply bacause she didn't want to live (pretty selfish since she had two kids to raise) or because Sideous was keeping her alive?



I think that her broken heart place the force choke killed her.  Having a dark side power affect you while your body is in such a state of flux can't be good.



			
				Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> 3. The dreams. Real or planted by Sideous?



Definately real.  Palpatine is a manipulator.  He didn't need to plant them.



			
				Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> 4. The Prophecy. What happened with this. I figure the Jedi misunderstood it as Yoda implied. Instead of killing the Sith, he estabolished a true balance. There were two Sith, and in the end, there were two Jedi.



Again, something cool to be debated as it has multiple meanings and implications over the course of the series.  The Jedi say that eliminating the Sith brings balance because they prevert and twist life.  They thrive on chaos and emotion so getting rid of that balances things.

But you can't have Light without Dark.  I never really agreed with the Jedi's interpretation of the prophecy.

So, I guess he fulfilled both interpretations, just at different times.  It's muddy either way.  Yeah, he did make it so that there were 2 Jedi Masters and 2 Sith Lords.  But the Force doesn't care about numbers, it cares about everything.  And by eliminating the Jedi Order the universe was cast into darkness and ruled by the dark side.  But for a moment, there could have been balance.

And in the end, he finishes what the Jedi thought he would be killing both of the Sith Lords (Palpatine and himself).  So, I take it both ways as prophecies should.  It was mentioned in the movie that only the Sith deal in absolutes.  So, in this case, I'll take the Jedi point of view.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 20, 2005)

Just got back from a second viewing today...still a solid 9 for me.

As for the Prophecy...guys, according to Lucas, balance does not equal 2 Siht and 2 Jedi. Balance means no Sith. Think of the Dark Side like a cancer or a virus...everything is in balance when it ISN'T there. And Anakin still ends up balancing things out in the end.


----------



## John Crichton (May 20, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Just got back from a second viewing today...still a solid 9 for me.
> 
> As for the Prophecy...guys, according to Lucas, balance does not equal 2 Siht and 2 Jedi. Balance means no Sith. Think of the Dark Side like a cancer or a virus...everything is in balance when it ISN'T there. And Anakin still ends up balancing things out in the end.



 Isn't that what I said?


----------



## Knight Otu (May 20, 2005)

I voted 8 - About on par with the other 5 movies.



> 4. On Mustafar, Obi-Wan should offer Anakin forgiveness, and ask him to come back to the jedi.



Offer forgiveness to the person who was in command of slaughtering children, and doing at least part of that dirty work himself? I'd have a hard time accepting that, even from a jedi.



> 5. Evil should not jog. Evil should not whimper. Evil, especially the evil of the Emperor, the Dark Lord of the Sith, should be frightening. When Grievous's cruiser is having gravity problems, seeing Palpatine running to safety is embarrassing. This man is in control of _everything_. He should stride purposefully, fearlessly, imposingly.



In that scene, Palpatine is not Sidious. He is still the politician, strong in mind but weak in body. That's the role he has to play to keep his charade up. I'd be very suspicious of a guy who would not run for his life in that situation.



> 1. I got the impression that Darth Plagus was Sideous' master. So, Sideous knew the secrets of immortality and creating life. Right? So did Sideous create Anakin? If so, why didn't Anakin react more to this revelation? "Anakin! I am your FATHER!"



That's the impression I got as well. I suspect Anakin did not react to that because Palpatine told it as if it was a part of ancient history, or a fable.


----------



## Frilf (May 21, 2005)

My vote is still a 7, although I have a lower ranking for the other movies, as well, probably 

I agree with the points regarding Sidious'/Palpatine's behavior on Grievous' ship. It would have looked odd for him *not* to run for his life. As Darth Sidious, however, he should be mannered and in-control. So, I actually thought Lucas did ok there.

Obi-Wan did Anakin a _favor _ by not attacking him _on-sight _ after Vader's ruthless slaughtering of children. Again, the way this is handled is right on the money.

Darth Plagueis IS Darth Sidious' (former) master. Check out Wikipedia's info on it here.


----------



## Psion (May 21, 2005)

The Serge said:
			
		

> _Star Wars:  Revenge of the Sith_ was the best of the prequel trilogies hands-down.  It's arguably a better movie than _Return of the Jedi_.




So you're saying it's the best one then? 



> Speaking of Padme, how is it that this strong woman deteriorates into a mewling, pathetic, weak woman who is completely impotent when it comes to helping Anakin?




Yeah, that bugged me too. In the previous installments, one of the few things I felt got pulled off right is that Amidala displayed hereself as a heroinne.

And in this one, she gets demoted to ingenue. Ah well.

Anyways, I went with a 7. At least the movie seemed to start off on the right foot and the lulls and dialog weren't as bad as the first two, though I don't think the lightsaber duels were the best (heck, I think Phantom Menace's were better). It didn't reach the level of the original trilogy, in no small part because they still didn't manage to get me to care that much about the characters. The Emperor (Ian McDiarmid) probably put in the best performance, and Obi-Wan (Ewan McGregor) doesn't do too shabby either. The rest were also-rans.

The pacing held the film back... not so badly as the first two prequels, but I feel that the movie would have been a lot better if it weren't for some stuttered flow in the middle and the rushed feel at the end, as lucas goes through a mad dash to get Vader into this black armor that is conveniently lying around...


----------



## Welverin (May 21, 2005)

*part 1*



			
				John Crichton said:
			
		

> I must make mention of the final moment of Obi-wan and Anakin's duel. The fight was over and Anakin, cocky and full of power thinks he can out-power his former master. He leaps and gets his friggin legs hacked off, defeating _himself_.




Don't forget the arm, I need the DVD already so I can see how exactly he did that (likely just hollywood fudging).

Anyway, limbs, who needs 'em!



> And Lucas was right: The first trilogy was certainly more interesting. Actual war is much more entertaining than a political war. If he started the story with Episode I, the rest of the films wouldn't have happened.




It may be more fun to watch, but I wouldn’t say it’s more interesting. I’d say the political war, which includes Palpatines machinations, in the prequels is more interesting than the rebellion in the OT.



			
				Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Yoda casually walking in and taking out the Emperor's red-cloaked guards with merely a wave of his hand.  Hilarious.




This got a laugh both times I saw it.



			
				WayneLigon said:
			
		

> We find out how Obi-Wan and Yoda cheat death and do the disappearing thing, but it comes totally the hell out of left feild at the last minute.




Not if you were paying attention in Ep2 and caught the part when Yoda heard Qui-gon calling out.



> We see the Death Star already (it looks) about half-way done. There could be many, many reasons why it takes them 19 years to complete the other half.




No, it was only a skeleton. It does call into how the got the second one operational so quickly, either they were simply more capable of building such a thing by that point or it was started before the first one was destroyed.



			
				Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> No Han was ever dealt with in any way for this movie...HOWEVER, there's a YT-1300 transport that's pretty hard to miss early on in the movie. Knowing Lucas, its the _Faclon_.




Doesn’t mean anything, there were some in Ep2 as well.



			
				stevelabny said:
			
		

> this is insane. people bash and bash phantom menace. which at the very least has one of the best fight scenes in movie history. they think attack of the clones is ok even though its not. and they love this piece of trash?
> 
> yikes.




Maybe if you understood that people can have different opinions on things and actually respected that concept it wouldn't be so hard to understand.


----------



## CrusaderX (May 21, 2005)

I found it a bit odd that the whole Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas mystery from Episode II wasn't mentioned at all in III.  

The novel Labyrinth of Evil pretty much addresses the Sifo-Dyas issue, but it seems strange that a major plot point from Episode II gets answered in a novel, rather than Episode III.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 21, 2005)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> I found it a bit odd that the whole Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas mystery from Episode II wasn't mentioned at all in III.
> 
> The novel Labyrinth of Evil pretty much addresses the Sifo-Dyas issue, but it seems strange that a major plot point from Episode II gets answered in a novel, rather than Episode III.




Well...truthfully, it would do nothing in Sith but add yet another scene. It was already pressed for time as it was, and it was such a simple, quick explanation that it would have been a waste of time in the end.


----------



## Welverin (May 21, 2005)

*part 2*



			
				Flyspeck23 said:
			
		

> Favorites:
> - Grievous and the four lightsabers (didn't watch Clone Wars though, so I can't compare)




It's in the second series; I however preferred how he fought in the first series (he did a fair bit of spinning/rotating around switching lightsabers between his hands and feet).



			
				sniffles said:
			
		

> I am still convinced that George Lucas cannot write good dialog, except for the occasional humorous line.  Some of the dialog was cringe-inducing.  He's also a master of making events fit his overarcing story and logic be damned; i.e., they have bacta fluid and droids in the Star Wars universe, but apparently they don't have ultrasound, because Padme didn't know she was having twins.




Well, the future lacks certain modern day basics, such as basic forensic science (fingerprints? never heard of them!).



			
				qstor said:
			
		

> I didn't have a problem with the Wookies. For me it was the flow of the movie, too much cutting back and forth. I didnt get the feeling that 9 months for the pregnancy had gone by more like 2 weeks at most.




Well it was clear she was already pregnant and Anakin had been away for a while, so it stands to reason she was already pretty far along and it just wasn't shown for whatever reason (whether she was hiding it or bad film making).



			
				Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> 1. I got the impression that Darth Plagus was Sideous' master. So, Sideous knew the secrets of immortality and creating life. Right? So did Sideous create Anakin? If so, why didn't Anakin react more to this revelation? "Anakin! I am your FATHER!"




It was never established Anakin knew about that (as I recall), an I suspect he didn't.



> 3. The dreams. Real or planted by Sideous?




Up to us, I like the idea of plants though. It also explains how Palpy knew about them.



> 4. The Prophecy. What happened with this. I figure the Jedi misunderstood it as Yoda implied. Instead of killing the Sith, he estabolished a true balance. There were two Sith, and in the end, there were two Jedi.




What you need to do is understand what the characters/Lucas meant by balance (a poorly chosen word), it has nothing to do with equal numbers and is about removing the taint of the darkside, which anakin eventually does with Luke's help.



			
				Mystery Man said:
			
		

> OK help me out here!
> 
> Mace and Emperor battle, my position is that the Emperor was playing helpless and could have put the wood to Mace anytime he wanted. He was just doing that to get Anakin to turn.
> 
> Agree? Disagree?




Disagree, Mace was supposed to be one of the most powerful Jedi and one of the best fighters, so his taking out Plapy wasn't surprising. Doesn't preclude some hamming up for Anakin though.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I love the fact that Palpatine used everyone as tools…  Even Vader was a tool.  If Luke had turned he quickly would have replaced him without ceremony…   (Or at least without much, I think Palpatine did honestly consider Vader a friend... though I use the term loosely in regard to Palpatine whom I doubt ever has a true friend.)




He'd probably qualify as a true psychopath, in which case he would even understand the concept.



			
				John Crichton said:
			
		

> I'm thinking that it was because he dropped his disguise.  The face was certainly distorted in the holo-net transmissions.  It was we'll timed as it probably took concentration to keep the charade going.  Not having to do it in public was probably a relief.  Simply being a Sith Lord for as long as he was would have made him look like that pretty quickly.




I disagree on this point, I don't think he looks that different in the holograms (and I was looking closely when I watched Ep2&3 recently). Plus Palpatine has gotten noticeably worse looking through the prequels.



			
				Jeremy said:
			
		

> *Vader's "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!" *
> Whiny Vader sucks. Angry Vader is ok. Menacing Vader would have been much better.




I have no problem with whiny Anakin/Vader, because that's what leads to menacing Vader. Remember he has almost twenty years to go from what we see in Ep3 to what we see in Ep4, that's a lot of time to stew and become hardened and bitter.



			
				John Crichton said:
			
		

> This debate has been raging on other boards and I have stayed away.  The implication that Plagus was his master and created Anakin will be debated for years and is the great mystery of this movie.  Palpatine also says that he doesn't know how to save Padme but with Anakin's help they could find the secret.  He could have been lying but if we take him at face value than Palpatine couldn't have created him, but maybe Plagus did.




I suspect one of them created Anakin, but Palpatine was simply lying about saving Padme, whatever the reason, he's a sith after all and we know he was trying to manipulate Anakin into convert him. So even if he could, why would he?



			
				CrusaderX said:
			
		

> I found it a bit odd that the whole Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas mystery from Episode II wasn't mentioned at all in III.




There’s no need, I haven't read the book yet and it's easy enough just from Ep2 to figure out it was just another sham perpetrated by Palpatine.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 21, 2005)

One thing I picked up on this second time seeing it...the way Darth Vader speaks when he's finally in the armor.

It SOUNDS like James Earl Jones doing a Hayden impression. Just the way he speaks is perfect, and you can really see the burnt and beaten Anakin under the helmet. I had expected to hear the same old Vader...but I'm honestly much happier to hear him not change suddenly to a much older and harder voice.


----------



## Dark Jezter (May 21, 2005)

The Serge said:
			
		

> Speaking of Padme, how is it that this strong woman deteriorates into a mewling, pathetic, weak woman who is completely impotent when it comes to helping Anakin?  She spends half this movie crying only to meet her destiny like a spineless weakling.  Oh come on!  Lucas completely raped that character of her dignity and self-reliance.  She was window dressing and nothing more, a terrible fate for what appeared to be an interesting character in the previous prequel installments.




Although I felt that she could have been portrayed a little better in the movie, keep in mind that she _is_ a woman in the late stages of pregnancy, complete with mood swings and physical frailty.  While I do like the character of Padme, I think it would have been a little silly for her to be a blaster-toting grrrrl-power asskicker in such a state.


----------



## Welverin (May 21, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> It SOUNDS like James Earl Jones doing a Hayden impression. Just the way he speaks is perfect, and you can really see the burnt and beaten Anakin under the helmet. I had expected to hear the same old Vader...but I'm honestly much happier to hear him not change suddenly to a much older and harder voice.




And as I mentioned, somewhere, he has about two decades to reach that state and it's unreasonable to expect it to happen instantly.


----------



## CrusaderX (May 21, 2005)

Welverin said:
			
		

> There’s no need, I haven't read the book yet and it's easy enough just from Ep2 to figure out it was just another sham perpetrated by Palpatine.




But it wasn't.  According to the book, Sifo-Dyas really was a Jedi Master.   He wasn't Sidious as many had speculated (since the names sound similar).


----------



## Jdvn1 (May 21, 2005)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> I give it a 5.5. Round up to a 6 for the poll I guess.



Yeah, but I rounded down a la D&D-style.


> Things I didn't like:
> 
> *Vader's "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!" *
> Whiny Vader sucks. Angry Vader is ok. Menacing Vader would have been much better.



This part flabergasted me.  I didn't believe it could've been written like that.


> *Wookies talking to each other.*
> Very lamely done. Especially after Republic Commando handled Tarful so well. If you want to see an interesting wookie (albeit a very evil one) see Hanharr.
> 
> *When the troopers took their helmets off and there were more than a few of them around.*
> They did multiple Agent Smith's incredibly well. But these guys looked horrible. I've seen overcut duplicates of people done better on TV and this is ing ILM!



These were annoying, but these problems paled in comparison to the others, IMO.


> *Padme.*
> Just about everything about Padme.



... Yeah.  I want to say "... but (something)" but there's nothing I can put there.


> *The fact that Obi-Wan was the only competent looking Jedi.*
> Including Mace who talks about not trusting the I-wear-all-black Anakin, SEES him wavering, and then is totally blind sided when Anakin moves to stop him. What happened to seeing a fight a couple seconds into the future? I wouldn't have a problem with the Emperor and Annakin together overpowering Windu. Or even Annakin beating him. Anything but 'oops! I lost my arm.' That sucked.



To be fair, Mace said that Anakin had won his trust.  If it were me, I wouldn't have raised my light saber in the _first_ place for the finish shot -- heck, I wouldn't have let the emperor scurry along the room with that with me merely walking towards him -- but what am I compared to a Jedi?  I liked Mace except for that scene.  He's just cool.  And Yoda was awesome.  That'd make it three competent Jedi.


> *The Clone Wars animated series did a much better job with the action than the movies did. *
> Grievous was ing intimidating in the animated series. Admittedly, Windu really put the hurt on him. But here he's always hunched over and running and even when he busts out the 4 arms he doesn't do anything but get his hands chopped off.
> 
> *Something about Jimmy Smits I'm forgetting really bothered me at the time.*



Didn't see the animated series, but I'm just not sure Jimmy Smits worked very well in his part.  And he just happened to have been considering adopting?  There's not enough characterization in the movie to support the part he played.


> *The lightsaber fights in general.*
> My favorite Jedi remains Qui-Gon and his fights with Maul remain the best saber duels I've seen. Windu's handling of the saber was pathetic.



That's why Windu just had one.  He had to give it a shot, right?  After that, we knew it was pathetic and he didn't have to have any more.  That face he makes at the end of one of the scenes is just weird, though.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 21, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone
 said:
			
		

> I love the fact that Palpatine used everyone as tools… Even Vader was a tool. If Luke had turned he quickly would have replaced him without ceremony…  (Or at least without much, I think Palpatine did honestly consider Vader a friend... though I use the term loosely in regard to Palpatine whom I doubt ever has a true friend.)






			
				Welverin said:
			
		

> He'd probably qualify as a true psychopath, in which case he would even understand the concept.




I'm in the opinion of a well-aged attitude... He spent how many years manipulating the senate and the republic to become emperor?  (15 or so?) I say aging is really no longer an issue for him.


----------



## Welverin (May 21, 2005)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> But it wasn't.  According to the book, Sifo-Dyas really was a Jedi Master.   He wasn't Sidious as many had speculated (since the names sound similar).




I'm not saying Sifo-Dyas wasn't real, but that him ordering the creation of the clone army was a sham. Remember in Ep2 it was established that he was already dead when the clone army was ordered, which means someone was masquerading as him (likely Palaptine, but also potentially Dooku, or even Maul). So just based on the movies there is enough there to generate a reasonable explanation, and as RotS shows George doesn't feel the need to spell everything out.


----------



## CrusaderX (May 21, 2005)

Welverin said:
			
		

> I'm not saying Sifo-Dyas wasn't real, but that him ordering the creation of the clone army was a sham. Remember in Ep2 it was established that he was already dead when the clone army was ordered, which means someone was masquerading as him (likely Palaptine, but also potentially Dooku, or even Maul). So just based on the movies there is enough there to generate a reasonable explanation, and as RotS shows George doesn't feel the need to spell everything out.




No, you're missing the point.  According to Labyrinth of Evil, Sifo-Dyas wasn't Sidious, or Dooku, or Maul.  He was an actual Jedi Master who other Jedi knew about.  Nobody was masquerading as him.  He was his own person, and he definitely ordered the army (though even the book doesn't really explain why, and he seemed to be acting independently - though ultimately I guess he, too, could have been a pawn of Palpatine, even though LoE doesn't say this).   A masquerade would have been a good guess, I agree, but LoE specifically states otherwise.

Now, LoE could be completely wrong, since it's a book rather than a film.  But I think most people who watch Episode II and then III will think that Sifo-Dyas was really Sidious, when this isn't so.

Though as a fan of the EU, I caught another EU/RotS contradiction.  In the novels and comics, Ki-Adi-Mundi was a Knight, not a Master, when he was on the Council.  But Episode III states that Anakin was the only Council member to ever not be a Master.


----------



## Michael Tree (May 21, 2005)

Welverin said:
			
		

> Not if you were paying attention in Ep2 and caught the part when Yoda heard Qui-gon calling out.



I'd forgotten about that, and so apparently has everyone else.  That's why it needed to be in this movie too.  The annoying thing is that it would have been phenomenally easy to include it: Just put in one warning from Qui-Gon as Yoda is about to be ambushed on Kasshyk.  That would have added to that scene, and set up the revelation at the end.  As it was, Yoda's comments at the end came out of nowhere.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 21, 2005)

Michael Tree said:
			
		

> I'd forgotten about that, and so apparently has everyone else.  That's why it needed to be in this movie too.  The annoying thing is that it would have been phenomenally easy to include it: Just put in one warning from Qui-Gon as Yoda is about to be ambushed on Kasshyk.  That would have added to that scene, and set up the revelation at the end.  As it was, Yoda's comments at the end came out of nowhere.



 Sadly, the Yoda/Qui-Gon scene was cut. But, considering how long the movie was and how much was already in it, that's understandable. I get the feeling it'll at least be on the DVD, however.


----------



## wingsandsword (May 21, 2005)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> Though as a fan of the EU, I caught another EU/RotS contradiction.  In the novels and comics, Ki-Adi-Mundi was a Knight, not a Master, when he was on the Council.  But Episode III states that Anakin was the only Council member to ever not be a Master.




I wondered about that.  Of course, Ki-Adi-Mundi was always an exception case, like in the EU being granted special permission to marry because of his species.  His appointment to the Council could have been temporary and thus not technically warranting the promotion, or he could have actively declined the title of Master although accepting the council seat.

Of course, Anakin could have been overreacting, which would have been very in-character for him.  It could be _technically_ possible to sit on the council and not be a Master, just very rare, and he was acting like it was the first time it had ever been done.

I actually found RotS to be very EU friendly actually.  They left a wide loophole for Jedi to escape the purges and go into hiding, like those exiles who appear in the EU.  Palpatine's whole "secret of immortality" even validates Dark Empire.


----------



## Michael Tree (May 21, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Sadly, the Yoda/Qui-Gon scene was cut. But, considering how long the movie was and how much was already in it, that's understandable. I get the feeling it'll at least be on the DVD, however.



I didn't realize that they'd filmed it.  Do you know what happened in it?  No doubt lots of stilted and unneccessarily long exposition.   The little editing trick I suggested wouldn't have taken any extra time.  (And couldn't lucas have done away with one of the "frantic running around doing unimportant things" scenes in the middle?  )


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 21, 2005)

Michael Tree said:
			
		

> I didn't realize that they'd filmed it.  Do you know what happened in it?  No doubt lots of stilted and unneccessarily long exposition.   The little editing trick I suggested wouldn't have taken any extra time.  (And couldn't lucas have done away with one of the "frantic running around doing unimportant things" scenes in the middle?  )



 I don't know the details. I DO know that in the novel, Yoda does have a conversation with a disembodied Qui-Gon...this was definitely cut from the movie, but whether it was just Qui-Gon's voice or an actual blue spirity Qui-Gon, I can't say.


----------



## fett527 (May 21, 2005)

Welverin said:
			
		

> ...Well, the future lacks certain modern day basics, such as basic forensic science (fingerprints? never heard of them!)...




A *long time ago * in a galaxy far, far away...


----------



## Welverin (May 21, 2005)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> No, you're missing the point.




No, I'm not. Watch the scene in Ep2 where Obi-wan tells Yoda and Mace about the clone army he asks for confirmation about Sifo-dyas _already being dead_, so if that is the case explain to me how a dead man orders a clone army? This is why I believe someone was pretending to be Sifo-dyas, I never questioned his actually existing and being a Jedi Master, in fact I always accepted that he did.


----------



## CrusaderX (May 21, 2005)

Welverin said:
			
		

> No, I'm not. Watch the scene in Ep2 where Obi-wan tells Yoda and Mace about the clone army he asks for confirmation about Sifo-dyas _already being dead_, so if that is the case explain to me how a dead man orders a clone army? This is why I believe someone was pretending to be Sifo-dyas, I never questioned his actually existing and being a Jedi Master, in fact I always accepted that he did.




Obi-Wan asks for confirmation, but that confirmation is never given.

Here's the dialgoue, straight from the AOTC script:

_OBI-WAN:  Yes, Master. They say a Master Sifo-Dyas
placed the order for a clone army at the request of the
Senate almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he
was killed before that. Did the Council ever authorize the
creation of a clone army?

MACE WINDU: No. Whoever placed that order did not have the
authorization of the Jedi Council._

Obi-Wan was under the impression that Sifo-Dyas was killed, yes.  But neither Mace nor Yoda confirm this one way or the other.  And  again, LoE specifically states that the real Sifo-Dyas, and not an imposter, was the one who ordered the army.  And nothing in Episodes II or III actually disputes this.

This whole Sifo-Dyas deal is just sloppy script writing IMO, since many fans still don't know what the heck actually happened.


----------



## Welverin (May 21, 2005)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> Obi-Wan asks for confirmation, but that confirmation is never given.
> 
> Here's the dialgoue, straight from the AOTC script:
> 
> ...




And note they don't say he was actually alive either. So based solely on the movies someone impersonating him is a perfectly reasonable explanation, which is really all I was getting at.


----------



## driver8 (May 21, 2005)

I just saw it, Id rate it an 8. There are several things that seemed a little wonky to me, like the early departure of Dooku (loved the surprise on his face before he got it) and the somewhat inexplicable appearance of Grievous. Characters just came into this movie with little exposition. 

Of course, if you saw the micro series on Cartoon Network youd be up to speed, but that just seems like lazy moviemaking to me /shrug. I sort of wish parts of this movie were spread or begun in EPII, so so much wouldnt have been crammed into this one.

That aside, I think GL dd a good job of getting Anakin's fall across. He wants to do good, but is conflicted (and if you believed Palpatines Darth Plagus story-poor Anakin was almost genetically born to fall). In the end, I really end up viewing Vader as a rather pathetic figure, albeit a murderous, evil one as well.

And Ian Mcrirmind stole this movie. Ewan MacGregor's Obi-Wan was better, becoming more Aluc Guiness-y but Palpatine here was a scene chewer, wonderfully hammy-the perfect tone for a campy space opera.

EDIT: Oh yea - why do I get the idea that GL was leaving continuity open for more Jedi being alive, since Obi wan and Yoda go to the Temple and turn off the fake retreat beacon? Wonder if that will figure into any future SW projects?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 21, 2005)

driver8 said:
			
		

> That aside, I think GL dd a good job of getting Anakin's fall across. He wants to do good, but is conflicted (and if you believed Palpatines Darth Plagus story-poor Anakin was almost genetically born to fall). In the end, I really end up viewing Vader as a rather pathetic figure, albeit a murderous, evil one as well.




I so agree!   but I wonder where this he should be, "a murderous being of pure evil."  He repented at the end of RotJ and Luke said many times during that movie that he still felt the good with in him. 

Anyhow the best villains are those you can sympathize with. 



			
				driver8 said:
			
		

> And Ian Mcrirmind stole this movie. Ewan MacGregor's Obi-Wan was better, becoming more Aluc Guiness-y but Palpatine here was a scene chewer, wonderfully hammy-the perfect tone for a campy space opera.




He did, but this wasn't a surprise for me either...  He's stolen every scene he's been in.  (and I thinking I'm willing to include the recut of the scene in ESB…  Which is about impossible to do 24/25 years latter.)


----------



## The_lurkeR (May 21, 2005)

Saw it Thursday night... gave it a generous 5.

Same hideous dialogue, poor direction, over the top special effects as the last two.

I mean could they really not bother to use real people for the clone troopers? Seriously it's a damn guy in armor! Could they not just use the real actor when there was only one with his helmet off on-screen?!? The abundance of lame cg troopers, and ridiculous amount of floating robots was too much.

The ham-fisted "descent" or "seduction" to the dark side was simply laughable.

Lucas really dissappointed me here. I had fallen for the hype that this one was "different" from the last two. Which unfortunately wasn't true. It's really a pretty awful movie, if it didn't have "Star Wars" in the title I think many people would be less forgiving.

Just imagine giving the base idea, cast, and budget to practically any other writer/director alive... and you'd come out with a better movie. What a waste.


----------



## Qlippoth (May 21, 2005)

I gave it an 8. I thought it easily outshone the 2 prequels, and ranks up there with ESB (though only more viewings will decide this). Of course, it wouldn't be a Star Wars movie without the cheese. I did cringe when Vader crooned his "Nooooooooooooo" (maybe I've seen too many Simpsons episodes make fun of that trope to have an unbiased opinion), and Padme's role did seem relegated to an unimportant damsel-in-distress. But seeing Palpatine's plots finally come to fruition locked me in.

And yes, I loved that C-3PO's memory got wiped while R2 lost nothing--in a way, it gives the little astromech a little gravitas through the series...he may not reveal what he knows, but he's seen it all. And he got to do a little fighting on his own, no less!


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 21, 2005)

Qlippoth said:
			
		

> And yes, I loved that C-3PO's memory got wiped while R2 lost nothing--in a way, it gives the little astromech a little gravitas through the series...he may not reveal what he knows, but he's seen it all. And he got to do a little fighting on his own, no less!




Well he does claim to have been owned by Obi-Wan in ANH, while C-3P0 thinks he's lost his flipping dome, so it pretty much had to go that way.


----------



## Wayside (May 21, 2005)

The_lurkeR said:
			
		

> It's really a pretty awful movie, if it didn't have "Star Wars" in the title I think many people would be less forgiving.



I think the opposite is true. If it weren't _Star Wars_, even Episodes I and II would have gotten a lot more slack. Or, for example, if this were the first _Star Wars_ movie, if we didn't have any others, people would be touting it as the greatest thing since sliced bread.


----------



## The_lurkeR (May 21, 2005)

Wayside said:
			
		

> I think the opposite is true. If it weren't _Star Wars_, even Episodes I and II would have gotten a lot more slack. Or, for example, if this were the first _Star Wars_ movie, if we didn't have any others, people would be touting it as the greatest thing since sliced bread.





I disagree.

1) If you read many of the reasons in this thread that people post for liking it, they're fanboy reasons and not actual merits of the movie*. Oooh I saw Antilles, Tarkin, Chewbacca, the Millenium Falcon, the Death Star, a Sith naming ceremony? Oooh we found out why the Emperor is deformed (maybe?), why Yoda and Obi-Wan come back as "ghosts" (but not Anakin).

Therefore...

2) If there weren't any other Star Wars movies, nobody would be seeing this movie at the midnight showings. This movie would have to survive on it's merits and word of mouth. So what exactly would those merits be? It certainly wouldn't be the dialogue, pacing, or acting. I guess the whiz-bang special effects, but that hasn't made many other poor movies do very well lately.

If this was people first introduction to Anakin / Vader there is NO way he would be as popular as he is now. He's just a un-empathetic poorly written character in this film. The Frankenstein ripoff ending scene with the NOOOOOO! whine was hardly awe inspiring.




*(No slight against fanboys intended, they're entitled to their opinion. I just don't think they'd feel the same if they did not have the history behind it.)


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 21, 2005)

The_lurkeR said:
			
		

> The Frankenstein ripoff ending scene with the NOOOOOO! whine was hardly awe inspiring.




Well at least we do agree on something...  I didn't see the point of that, at least the ripping from his bindings, but I loved the move besides that. 

I am sorry you couldn't find enjoyment in it though.


----------



## The_lurkeR (May 21, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I am sorry you couldn't find enjoyment in it though.




Me too.  :\

I was a Star Wars fanboy prior to the prequels, just wish he had let someone else write and direct.


----------



## Testament (May 21, 2005)

driver8 said:
			
		

> EDIT: Oh yea - why do I get the idea that GL was leaving continuity open for more Jedi being alive, since Obi wan and Yoda go to the Temple and turn off the fake retreat beacon? Wonder if that will figure into any future SW projects?




Well, we don't actually see Aayla Secura die, and rumour has her as a major character for the TV series that bridges Eps III and IV.  I can't remember finding out if Shaak Ti actually died at the hands of Grevious or not in Clone Wars, since everything went to heck in an express elevator about 6 seconds after Mace cut her down, so she may still be around.  And Obi-Wan and Yoda cut off the trap signal, so...


----------



## Sammael (May 21, 2005)

Testament said:
			
		

> Well, we don't actually see Aayla Secura die



Huh? I am pretty certain I saw her being shot in the back by a bunch of clone troopers who then approached her fallen body and proceeded to shoot her for ten seconds...


----------



## Wayside (May 21, 2005)

The_lurkeR said:
			
		

> 1) If you read many of the reasons in this thread that people post for liking it, they're fanboy reasons and not actual merits of the movie*. Oooh I saw Antilles, Tarkin, Chewbacca, the Millenium Falcon, the Death Star, a Sith naming ceremony? Oooh we found out why the Emperor is deformed (maybe?), why Yoda and Obi-Wan come back as "ghosts" (but not Anakin).



Well, part of my response to this is something that might seem a bit radical, but I'm going to say it anyway: I don't think people really know why they like or dislike a lot of things. Oh, they can offer lots of reasons, that's true, but that doesn't make them the right ones, and this can play in a lot of different ways. Some of the "reviews" panning RotS I've read, for example, were clearly written by people who weren't going to like the movie under any circumstances anyway. Naturally they used a few of those old standbys people who like to sound "objective" are always trotting out--dialogue, pacing, acting, et al.--but it's pretty obvious the level of scorn they offer has nothing to do with these mythical words, which are bogus anyway.

This leads me to part two of my response. Where are these timeless standards of dialogue, pacing, acting people are always on about? Are the patches of "bad" dialogue, "poor" pacing, "uninspired" acting (what an unbearably Romantic phrase that last one is) so much harder to spot in your favorite books and movies, or even in the really "great literature" of the world? Or did that many people miss the train, around the last decade of the 19th century, where the Neo-Aristotelian unities were finally thrown out for good? I'm pretty confident neither is true. I simply think this pseudo-objectivity feeds the impulse of the "haters," to use the opposite of "fanboys," by giving them a mathematical excuse for what is ultimately as equally historical a bias _against_ the prequels as the fanboys have _for_ them. Basically, it makes their disatisfaction "add up"--but it isn't, to my mind, the source of that disatisfaction at all.



			
				The_lurkeR said:
			
		

> 2) If there weren't any other Star Wars movies, nobody would be seeing this movie at the midnight showings. This movie would have to survive on it's merits and word of mouth. So what exactly would those merits be? It certainly wouldn't be the dialogue, pacing, or acting. I guess the whiz-bang special effects, but that hasn't made many other poor movies do very well lately.



While it's certainly true the movies would make less money, wouldn't have midnight showings etc., RotS--assuming a rewritten version that would actually make sense as a standalone movie--would not only survive but do quite well. People would eat it up, because it doesn't need anything abstract like "virtues" or "merits"--save that stuff for the totalizing moral systems used in facile RPG's like vanilla D&D; they have no place in aesthetics at all, much less in the aesthetics of _Star Wars_, of all things. And I'm not saying all acting, all writing, all directing is equal, only that there is no _timeless_ standard. The question isn't whether these things are good or bad, but whether they work _in this movie_ or not. For those who have predecided against the movie, of course they won't work. But the movie isn't thought bad because they don't work--they don't work because the movie is thought bad.



			
				The_lurkeR said:
			
		

> If this was people first introduction to Anakin / Vader there is NO way he would be as popular as he is now. He's just a un-empathetic poorly written character in this film. The Frankenstein ripoff ending scene with the NOOOOOO! whine was hardly awe inspiring.



I found it to be the worst scene in all of _Star Wars_, personally.


----------



## Eosin the Red (May 21, 2005)

Saw it. Liked it. Mace fought like a wussy (not cause he died but just slow-mo garbage from the master of kick-butt-fu). Hayden actually managed to not bore me too tears for the first time (thank you!) but Portman fell as far as he rose.

There is lots to be fussed about, argued over, and kibitzed which is as it should be.


----------



## Dragonmarked DM (May 21, 2005)

Did anybody catch the nod to Director Akira Kurosawa and the movie Seven Samurai
(for those not aware, Akira Kurosawa was one of George's idols)


----------



## CrusaderX (May 21, 2005)

Testament said:
			
		

> Well, we don't actually see Aayla Secura die, and rumour has her as a major character for the TV series that bridges Eps III and IV.




I believe that rumor got shot down.  Just like Aayla herself.      Besides, the girl that "played" Aayla in the films is a make-up artist, not an actress.  She did no real acting in the films besides standing around looking hot.  I doubt that she has what it takes to be a major character in a major TV series.


----------



## Psion (May 21, 2005)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> I believe that rumor got shot down.  Just like Aayla herself.      Besides, the girl that "played" Aayla in the films is a make-up artist, not an actress.  She did no real acting in the films besides standing around looking hot.  I doubt that she has what it takes to be a major character in a major TV series.




Who says the person portraying her has to be the same?

(Not that there haven't been some actresses who "don't have what it takes to be a major character in a major TV series" cast as major characters in major SF TV series'.  )


----------



## Wormwood (May 21, 2005)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> She did no real acting in the films besides standing around looking hot. I doubt that she has what it takes to be a major character in a major TV series.




Rick Berman begs to differ.


----------



## Mystery Man (May 21, 2005)

fett527 said:
			
		

> Agree 100%, absolutely.




Welcome to the smart peoples club!


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 21, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> Who says the person portraying her has to be the same?




Well, the 'actress' Amy Allen is the one who pretty much started the whole "Aayla doesn't die" thing...but, she pretty clearly does.

Shaak Ti does, too, but her scene being cut down by Anakin in the Jedi Temple was cut from the movie. Hopefully it'll be on the DVD.


----------



## Numion (May 21, 2005)

First of all, big thumbs down to Krug for starting thread too much in advance, and resulting in the first pages being uninformative chatter. Sorry. 

Just came back from watching the movie, and I rated it an 8. Good scenery and action, but at points lacking acting and plot. Anas turning to dark side was a little unbelievable. 

Best scene: when Anakin enters the room with the young jedi trainees and turns on his lightsabre


----------



## CrusaderX (May 21, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Well, the 'actress' Amy Allen is the one who pretty much started the whole "Aayla doesn't die" thing...but, she pretty clearly does.




Right.  The dead characters really are dead.  I'm sure people can come up with improbable explanations as to why Aayla might be alive, but if that's the case, *all* deaths can be explained away, from Mace (we never saw the body) to Padme herself (the "dying of a broken heart" was an obvious sham, and she faked her own death and burial to hide from Vader and the Emperor...).

I think it's best to let dead characters stay dead, like the story intended, until an official source clearly says otherwise.


----------



## Numion (May 21, 2005)

It seems Lucas included some political commentary. Democracy rarely dies to sounds of protest, but to the sounds of roaring applauds. 

I kinda expected Vader to say in the final scene "Sooo .. Palpy, you really think this massive battlestation is such a good idea?"


----------



## wingsandsword (May 21, 2005)

Numion said:
			
		

> It seems Lucas included some political commentary. Democracy rarely dies to sounds of protest, but to the sounds of roaring applauds.



People have always interpreted Star Wars through the eyes of their day.  Everybody knew this was a movie about the collapse of the Republic and the rise of the Empire, there had to be some political statements for the movie to even work.

I've read several reviews that say Lucas made Episode III as a modern day political allegory.  I think that's just continuing a long pattern.  Remember that Reagan used Star Wars as an allegory for the Cold War, and comparisons with the fall of Rome and Nazi Germany are also popular.  Throughout history there are familiar patterns of rise, fall, domination and rebellion, civil war and uprising, tyranny and freedom, and Star Wars is an embodiment of it all.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (May 21, 2005)

Saw it an liked it.  It's definitely the best of the prequels, though I think it falls short of the originals -- ESB at the least.

Things that bugged me:

- Padme falling apart so easily, after all the strength she portrayed in the first two movies.
- Stilted dialog between Anakin and Padme
- The rushed transition of Anakin to the Dark Side.  Though we see the temptation building, his transition from "No, don't kill Palpatine" to committing mass murder -- in a matter of minutes -- was a bit rushed.
- Continuity issues:

-- Obiwan's age
-- Fighting styles (nothing to be done about that, in retrospect, but why was the original Vader/Kenobi fight so stilted?  Obiwan wouldn't be old enough, per the timeline)
-- Padme's death is a disconnect with the later series.  When Luke and Leia are having the discussion about their mother(s), Luke says "I have no memory of my mother", while Leia remembers her as dying when she was small; she was "stong, but sad".  I expected Padme to live on for a bit with Leia before dying of grief.  Or are they supposed to be talking about Mrs. Organa
-- Flying, fighting R2D2.  As much as he kicks ass in this movie, they don't explain where it all went to.
-- Anakin tallks about the Republic, then the Empire two sentences later (though he wasn't around for the ammouncement of the Galactic Empire).

I did like all the foreshadowing of the future movies ... from the stormtrooper development, to the starship evolution, to Obiwan picking up Anakin's lightsaber, and the ending with Owen & Beru looking out at the setting Tatooine suns.


----------



## EricNoah (May 21, 2005)

Great stuff --- much better than anticipated.  My stomach's still in knots nearly an hour later.  Worth repeat viewings.  Acting was much improved all around, dialogue was a little more natural, and action was spectacular.  Misses the overall perfection of ESB, but what could really match that?  Give it a 9.


----------



## Trickstergod (May 21, 2005)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> Right.  The dead characters really are dead.  I'm sure people can come up with improbable explanations as to why Aayla might be alive, but if that's the case, *all* deaths can be explained away, from Mace (we never saw the body) to Padme herself (the "dying of a broken heart" was an obvious sham, and she faked her own death and burial to hide from Vader and the Emperor...).
> 
> I think it's best to let dead characters stay dead, like the story intended, until an official source clearly says otherwise.




And sadly, that tends to be exactly what the Expanded Universe stuff does. Boba Fett? Not dead. The Emperor? Didn't die during Return of the Jedi. 

Suffice to say, I don't much like some of the Expanded Universe stuff. Rubbish, I say. 

However, while I am aware of Shaak-Ti's cut death scene, I do have some minor, fan-boy hope that its cut is partially because it was decided for the character to live and wind up in the TV series. 

Go, go, fan-boy geekery. Heh.


----------



## RedShirtNo5 (May 21, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> As it was I was reduced to a bunch of muttered, "no way" and "holy &%$#" comments.




Funny, this may be a reason that I gave it relatively low rating (6), same as AotC.  I saw it this morning, and the guy next too me was muttering and commenting non-stop.  Really spoiled it, making it difficult to get into and just watch and experience.  If I can see it again with better theater and fewer distractions, it might go to a 7 or 8.  Or it might not.

-RedShirt


----------



## John Crichton (May 21, 2005)

RedShirtNo5 said:
			
		

> Funny, this may be a reason that I gave it relatively low rating (6), same as AotC.  I saw it this morning, and the guy next too me was muttering and commenting non-stop.  Really spoiled it, making it difficult to get into and just watch and experience.  If I can see it again with better theater and fewer distractions, it might go to a 7 or 8.  Or it might not.
> 
> -RedShirt



 Ah, if I heard it loud next to me I would have been pissed, too.

But I made sure to muffle myself or at least slap a hand over my mouth if I was about to get really into it (like during the last duel).  I did ask my sister afterwards if she heard me and she said no, but that could have been because she was really into it.  The guy to my other side was FRICKIN' SLEEPING.  Unbelievable.  At least he didn't lean on me like this blob-kid did during Episode One.


----------



## John Crichton (May 21, 2005)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> Saw it an liked it. It's definitely the best of the prequels, though I think it falls short of the originals -- ESB at the least.
> 
> Things that bugged me:
> 
> ...



I thought, at first, that this was true as well and it really annoyed me.  Until I went back and actually heard what Leia said again.  I don't have time to properly quote it or go very far as I'm on my way out the door but if you do that and really pay attention to was she says it could be viewed as right on.  Something about feelings and such.  Makes me think they were Force-induced memories rather than real ones.



			
				Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> -- Flying, fighting R2D2.  As much as he kicks ass in this movie, they don't explain where it all went to.



R2 was awesome.  He provided the comedy and his early action was one of the great surprises of the movie.  I love that little guy.  20 years have passed and if he was in the rebellion the entire time then it could easily be reasoned that his extras were damaged and unable to be repair in that time.


----------



## BiggusGeekus (May 21, 2005)

Better than _Return of the Jedi_ not as good as _Empire Strikes Back_


----------



## Kanegrundar (May 21, 2005)

I gave it an 8.  There was a fair amount of cheese.  Anakin and Padme's dialog was hard to listen to.  However, the emotion in the scenes with Obi-Wan and Anakin were top notch.  There were a couple missed opportunities, but over all I'm very happy with RotS and I look forward to seeing it again next weekend!

Kane


----------



## Flyspeck23 (May 21, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Shaak Ti does, too, but her scene being cut down by Anakin in the Jedi Temple was cut from the movie. Hopefully it'll be on the DVD.




This seems wrong... wanting to see a person die.

But I agree, of course


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 21, 2005)

Flyspeck23 said:
			
		

> This seems wrong... wanting to see a person die.
> 
> But I agree, of course



 Hey, I had to watch my favorite Jedi, Plo Koon, get gunned down in his fighter...I'm just making sure ALL the Jedi get what's comin' to 'em so all's fail.


----------



## BiggusGeekus (May 22, 2005)

After reading through the thread, most people addressed what I liked, what I didn't like, and questions I had ... with one exception:

Is there a reason why Anikin wears black?  All the other Jedi have a dress code except for Anikin and that hot blue Twiliek chick.  Not that I'm complaining.  I'm just curious.


----------



## Trickstergod (May 22, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> After reading through the thread, most people addressed what I liked, what I didn't like, and questions I had ... with one exception:
> 
> Is there a reason why Anikin wears black?  All the other Jedi have a dress code except for Anikin and that hot blue Twiliek chick.  Not that I'm complaining.  I'm just curious.




Actually, quite a few Jedi wear something other than traditional Jedi robes. It's just that most of them aren't blatantly different. Ki-Adi-Mundi, Shaak-Ti, Plo Kloon - all of them are wearing something other than the robes of Windu or Obi-Wan. Heck, Anakin's not even the only Jedi in all black; I don't remember their names, but the two Jedi women who are always together, the master and student - they're decked out in black.


----------



## shilsen (May 22, 2005)

Wayside said:
			
		

> I think the opposite is true. If it weren't _Star Wars_, even Episodes I and II would have gotten a lot more slack. Or, for example, if this were the first _Star Wars_ movie, if we didn't have any others, people would be touting it as the greatest thing since sliced bread.



 I agree. I thought this was a good, entertaining movie, without being amazing. I saw it with a bunch of people who like the Star Wars movies without being anywhere close to fanboys and the sort of things that bothered a lot of people on this thread (and some of which I commented on post-movie) didn't seem to matter at all to them. They figured the original Star Wars series included an interesting storyline, fun characters, some good and come campy acting, some snappy and some hammy dialogue, and cool special effects, and so does this one (and, to a lesser extent, the other prequels). I've spoken to a number of other people in the "casual viewer" category and they mostly seem to have the same reactions. Midichlorians? Minor plot holes? The average viewer doesn't really give a damn about these things.


----------



## drothgery (May 22, 2005)

I gave it a 6, good effects, bad dialog (with way too many internal logic errors even within one movie, to say nothing of consitency with the other five), nice nods to the original series and other works. But I'd have to be feeling really generous to give Empire (easily the best Star Wars movie) better than a 7, and really nasty to give Phantom Menace a 4.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 22, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> But I'd have to be feeling really generous to give Empire (easily the best Star Wars movie) better than a 7, and really nasty to give Phantom Menace a 4.




A seven for Empire...  Why so harsh, Dave?


----------



## Orius (May 22, 2005)

qstor said:
			
		

> For me it was the flow of the movie, too much cutting back and forth. I didnt get the feeling that 9 months for the pregnancy had gone by more like 2 weeks at most.




The pacing was a little too fast in some parts.  I get the feeling that the events in the movie cover at least 6 months or so, but it feels a lot fast than that because everything goes by so fast.


----------



## Orius (May 22, 2005)

Welverin said:
			
		

> No, it was only a skeleton. It does call into how the got the second one operational so quickly, either they were simply more capable of building such a thing by that point or it was started before the first one was destroyed.




I think perhaps development of the planet destroying superlaser might be the factor that accounts for the differences.  In _A New Hope_, Han clearly believes that the Empire can't possibly destroy an entire world, even with their entire fleet of Star Destroyers.  It's possible then engineering behind such a weapon was difficult enough to delay the construction of the first Death star nearly 18 years.  It also connects better to the background material about the Death Star in the the Jedi Academy trilogy (even if KJA's writing isn't the greatest).   By RotJ, they've already built one before so they know how they work, and so a fully functional Death Star is partially completed after only a year or so.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (May 22, 2005)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> I think that it tied Vader to him for as long as it did.  Why would an all powerful self-serving Sith serve an inferior master for so long?  If he had the hope that she was alive and sought her out, or if she was alive, he would have tried to grant her the government she dreamed of in episode II.  If he found her dead and the kids, he would have had reason to live for himself and them and would again have taken down the emperor in his own rise to power.
> 
> But crushed like that, betrayed by all, and stripped of everything, he became naught but the hound of the Emperor until his son gave him something he cared about again.  And he destroys the Emperor...  The Emperor is doomed in any situation that Anakin has something to live for.




Actually Lucas says in the commentary to one of the first trilogy flicks that Vader would have been more powerful than Palpatine if he hadn't had so much of his body replaced by machine parts, limiting his control over the force.  So at that point he needed Luke to help him defeat Sideous according to Lucas.  Based on that I was suprised he didn't lose more of his body, but then again who knows if his lungs and stuff were replaced or what.  


I gave the movie a 9.  I loved the saber fights, I loved the action, I loved just about all of it.   The acting was typical of the Star Wars franchise, but I thought the plot was great.  The final fight was excellent, and Darth Sideous was great.  I thought the Frankenstein scene with Vader was great, he stumbles to his feet as he learns to walk anew with robotic legs...and screams with anguish as he realized he lost everything.  Excellent.  And as others have said, the look on his face as the mask is lowered is great.  He is a shattered person at that point.  As he screams "Nooooooooooo" as Sideous tells him Padme is dead, the last of Anakin Skywalker dies except for a tiny part hidden deep inside him, a tiny flicker that is nearly invisible.  Only Luke can see it and bring it out.  

Easily the most fun I've had at the theater in a long, long time.  Saw it with my brother and two friends, who are SW fans, but not fanboys.  They really liked it too.  I'm going to see it again next week.


----------



## Orius (May 22, 2005)

Trickstergod said:
			
		

> Heck, Anakin's not even the only Jedi in all black; I don't remember their names, but the two Jedi women who are always together, the master and student - they're decked out in black.




Luke Skywalker.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (May 22, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> I actually found RotS to be very EU friendly actually.  They left a wide loophole for Jedi to escape the purges and go into hiding, like those exiles who appear in the EU.  Palpatine's whole "secret of immortality" even validates Dark Empire.




But Dark Empire invalidates Return of the Jedi in that it renders Vader's final action hollow and makes it so he does not fufull the prophecy by destroying the Sith.   In fact I'm positive that Lucas states that Vader kill the Emperor.  When he kill the Emperor, then turns back to the lightside the Sith are no more, the prophecy has been fufilled.  I'd say that the Emperor is lying about the immortality thing since he knows that is THE hook he needs to get Anakin to turn. 

A lot of EU is horrid, but Dark Empire is the worst of the lot.


----------



## drothgery (May 22, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> A seven for Empire...  Why so harsh, Dave?




Because a 7 is what I rate a good, fun movie that's not really outstanding in any way. I'm harsh on everything; Fellowship of the Ring and The Two Towers are the only sci-fi/fantasy films I've seen that I'd even consider giving a 10.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 22, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Because a 7 is what I rate a good, fun movie that's not really outstanding in any way. I'm harsh on everything; Fellowship of the Ring and The Two Towers are the only sci-fi/fantasy films I've seen that I'd even consider giving a 10.




Haven't seen them, I keep telling myself I make it through the books first... 

I am shocked though, I thought you where a fairly big star wars fan, in the non-fanatical sense, and empire is listed as the 12 best movie ever made on IMDB.


----------



## Trickstergod (May 22, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> Luke Skywalker.




...wasn't mentioned as he's kicking about well after the Jedi Order is nearly destroyed and it's unlikely Yoda or Obi-Wan bothered giving him any sort of uniform tips. Not to mention Luke's also treading the Dark Side by that point.


----------



## Darrin Drader (May 22, 2005)

I couldn't stand Anakin in Episode I, and I really got annoyed with the angsty teen in episode II. Damn you Lucas for making me finally like the guy, right before you kill him off! (well, close enough)


----------



## Truth Seeker (May 22, 2005)

10...

I will see it again.

There is nothing more to say...


----------



## Jdvn1 (May 22, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> 10...
> 
> I will see it again.
> 
> There is nothing more to say...



I saw it twice on opening day.


----------



## Turanil (May 22, 2005)

I voted a 5. I was midly disappointed by this movie. Too much fast-paced action over and over again without pause, and few story. It looked to me more like a video-clip rather than a film.

Some people complained that the "Nooooooo!!" scene was the worst ever. I disagree. However, there are two things I do find really lame and unjustified:

1) When leaving Kashyyk (or whatever the spelling), Yoda says good-bye to Chewbacca. What does this bring to the story that one of the wookie there is chewbacca? Absolutely NOTHING. One wookie seen a total of 5 seconds is Chewbacca... So what?! 

2) When Yoda tells Obi-Wan that he will have to train to become immortal, and that Qi-Kong Jim (or whatever the spelling) is immortal in the Force _because_ of such practices. What does this 10 second scene out of nothing brings to the film and to the SW mythology? Absolutely NOTHING. There is no need to tell that one has to go through special practices to become immortal in the Force upon his death. And where Anakin would have learned these techniques when he comes back as a ghost in the Force at the end of episode 6??


----------



## Krug (May 22, 2005)

After 204 votes, average of 7.613.  Median of 8.


----------



## demiurge1138 (May 22, 2005)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> I couldn't stand Anakin in Episode I, and I really got annoyed with the angsty teen in episode II. Damn you Lucas for making me finally like the guy, right before you kill him off! (well, close enough)




I agree. This is the most likeable Anakin in the movies, which makes his fall a bit more dramatic. And I wanted more of the Anakin / Obi-Wain camaraderie stuff. Which is why we have Clone Wars, I guess.

Demiurge out.


----------



## Flyspeck23 (May 22, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I'd say that the Emperor is lying about the immortality thing since he knows that is THE hook he needs to get Anakin to turn.




IIRC Palpatine is talking about granting live, not immortality (and by that gives a hint that he might be Anakin's father, or something like that). He even pointed out that for all his might, Darth Plagus wasn't able to save himself.
I don't think Palpatine is lying.


----------



## Mouseferatu (May 22, 2005)

Flyspeck23 said:
			
		

> I don't think Palpatine is lying.




Nor do I. Or rather, he _might_ be lying about the ability to save people from death, but I don't believe he was lying one bit about the ability to influence the midichlorians to create life. AFAIAC, Sideous learned that ability from his master, and it was Sideous who created Anakin. (I realize there are other ways to interpret that scene, but this is what I got from it, and what--even after considering the other possibilities--makes far and away the most sense to me.)

Keep in mind the history of the Sith characters as we know them. They don't lie when the truth will serve just as well.


----------



## Klaus (May 22, 2005)

The least said about Dark Empire I and II, the best.

But here's an EU scene I liked:

[sblock] In "Truce at Bakura", who begins right after RotJ, Anakin's ghost appears to Leia to apologize for what Vader did to her and Solo, and Leia basically gives him the finger. [/sblock]


----------



## resistor (May 22, 2005)

Well, I sought it.  My thoughts:

JUDICIOUS use of Force jumps is a good thing.  In excess, they complete kill lightsaber fights.  I HATED the duel with Count Dooku because all he seemed to do was quadrupled backflip in place.  BORING!

Since when is R2 so mobile???  Aside from the rocket boosters, he seems to zip about with a speed and alacrity he never had in the other movies (even the other prequels).

I wish some of the scenes had been given some more time.  For instance, while I liked the transformation into Vader scene, I wish it had been a minute or two longer.  It just felt rushed when it should have been the greatest moment of the film.

An inconsistency:  The medical droid says that they're going to have to operate on Padme quickly to save the children.  But then in the next scene, she appears to give natural birth.  What gives?

Finally, why the whole Qui-Gon Jin coming back thing?  It seems to serve no point whatsoever.


----------



## Welverin (May 22, 2005)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> - The rushed transition of Anakin to the Dark Side.  Though we see the temptation building, his transition from "No, don't kill Palpatine" to committing mass murder -- in a matter of minutes -- was a bit rushed.




It does seem that way, but I think it can be explain thus: once he rescues Palpatine by attacking Mace he realizes he's crossed the line and throws himself into and does as Palpatine says because it's now his sole way of saving Padme.



> - Continuity issues:
> -- Obiwan's age
> -- Fighting styles (nothing to be done about that, in retrospect, but why was the original Vader/Kenobi fight so stilted?  Obiwan wouldn't be old enough, per the timeline)




He'd have to be at least fifty by that point, depends how old he is in Ep1.  I figure at the bare minimum he's 18 in Ep1, which would make him fifty years old in SW. Ultimately I think we just have to chalk it up to real world issues and limitations of the time (though in the DVD commentaries GL did mention he wanted to show a progression from old stiffs to a younger more agile Luke).



			
				Trickstergod said:
			
		

> Actually, quite a few Jedi wear something other than traditional Jedi robes. It's just that most of them aren't blatantly different. Ki-Adi-Mundi, Shaak-Ti, Plo Kloon - all of them are wearing something other than the robes of Windu or Obi-Wan. Heck, Anakin's not even the only Jedi in all black; I don't remember their names, but the two Jedi women who are always together, the master and student - they're decked out in black.




Luminara Unduli and Barriss Offee.



			
				Orius said:
			
		

> I think perhaps development of the planet destroying superlaser might be the factor that accounts for the differences.  In _A New Hope_, Han clearly believes that the Empire can't possibly destroy an entire world, even with their entire fleet of Star Destroyers.  It's possible then engineering behind such a weapon was difficult enough to delay the construction of the first Death star nearly 18 years.  It also connects better to the background material about the Death Star in the the Jedi Academy trilogy (even if KJA's writing isn't the greatest).   By RotJ, they've already built one before so they know how they work, and so a fully functional Death Star is partially completed after only a year or so.




There's actually four years between the battle of Yavin and RotJ.

For a more complete timeline:
-32 tPM
-22 AotC
-19 RotS
0 ANH
+3 ESB
+4 RotJ
+25-30 NJO



			
				Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> As he screams "Nooooooooooo" as Sideous tells him Padme is dead, the last of Anakin Skywalker dies except for a tiny part hidden deep inside him, a tiny flicker that is nearly invisible.  Only Luke can see it and bring it out.




Nice to see there's someone else who doesn't think that part sucks, I like how you can see Sidious' smile as he tells Vader Padme is dead (one last manipulation).



			
				Turanil said:
			
		

> 1) When leaving Kashyyk (or whatever the spelling), Yoda says good-bye to Chewbacca. What does this bring to the story that one of the wookie there is chewbacca? Absolutely NOTHING. One wookie seen a total of 5 seconds is Chewbacca... So what?!




He was around more than that; he was one of the wookiees up in the command post with Yoda the whole time.

And what does it hurt having one of the numerous wookiees shown be Chewbacca? They have long lives, so it's hardly a stretch he would be there.



			
				Flyspeck23 said:
			
		

> IIRC Palpatine is talking about granting live, not immortality (and by that gives a hint that he might be Anakin's father, or something like that). He even pointed out that for all his might, Darth Plagus wasn't able to save himself.
> I don't think Palpatine is lying.




Palpy does say it’s possible to keep other people alive, that’s what made pointing out his inability too keep himself alive significant.



			
				Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Flyspeck23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




He may not be lying outright, but it would be a mistake to think he's being completely straight with Anakin. After all if it's something the Sith do and the Jedi don't it's probably not something you want done to you.



			
				The_lurkeR said:
			
		

> It's really a pretty awful movie, if it didn't have "Star Wars" in the title I think many people would be less forgiving.




Yes, but what you aren't taking into account is that there are likely just as many people who dislike the prequels, or SW in general, who will rag on it regardless of it's own merits, or lack there of.



			
				drothgery said:
			
		

> Because a 7 is what I rate a good, fun movie that's not really outstanding in any way. I'm harsh on everything; Fellowship of the Ring and The Two Towers are the only sci-fi/fantasy films I've seen that I'd even consider giving a 10.




FotR I can see, but tTT?


----------



## Welverin (May 22, 2005)

resistor said:
			
		

> JUDICIOUS use of Force jumps is a good thing.  In excess, they complete kill lightsaber fights.  I HATED the duel with Count Dooku because all he seemed to do was quadrupled backflip in place.  BORING!




I don't mind the jumping and flipping about, what I do mind are the triple and quadruple flips, which are all over the prequels and look terribly cheesy.



> Since when is R2 so mobile???  Aside from the rocket boosters, he seems to zip about with a speed and alacrity he never had in the other movies (even the other prequels).




As far as the original trilogy is concerned there are _NINETEEN YEARS_ between Ep3 and Ep4. *18!* That's plenty of time for major changes, including Vader's personality/disposition.


----------



## drothgery (May 22, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I am shocked though, I thought you where a fairly big star wars fan, in the non-fanatical sense, and empire is listed as the 12 best movie ever made on IMDB.




Not really (and I've got to think Empire made the top 12 by monopolizing nostaligia and the geek vote). The only Star Wars that I've absolutely loved, and considered one of the finest examples of the medium, was the first Knights of the Old Republic game, which is the best RPG I've played on the current generation of consoles (Jade Empire may be better, but I haven't played it yet). KotOR 2 could have been better than KotOR, and for most of the game I thought it would be, but there was too much unresolved at the end. I've only read two novels, one of which was awful (can't remember what it was) and one which was pretty good (the first of the Admiral Thrawn trilogy), but both were read because I was bored and there wasn't anything else around that looked good. Played both KotOR games and a little bit of X-Wing. And I've got a lot of RPG stuff, but the RPG is more interesting than the movies, especially since AMG runs a pretty good PBP game.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 22, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Not really (and I've got to think Empire made the top 12 by monopolizing nostaligia and the geek vote).




That and firm critics love the film...   Honest I don’t know anyone who doesn’t like the original movies.

Anyhow, I just got back from my second viewing and I think I liked it more this time then I did last time...   It certainly deserves the nine from me that it got.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 22, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> That and firm critics love the film...   Honest I don’t know anyone who doesn’t like the original movies.




They seem to be loving Sith, too. Yahoo's compilation of different critics from newspapers and such averages out around a B+ or so...maybe be a little higher, actually.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 22, 2005)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> -- Anakin tallks about the Republic, then the Empire two sentences later (though he wasn't around for the ammouncement of the Galactic Empire).




The terms Empire and Republic were interchanged quite a bit towards the end, it was noticable to me and disconcerting.


----------



## BrooklynKnight (May 22, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> The terms Empire and Republic were interchanged quite a bit towards the end, it was noticable to me and disconcerting.




I'm simply chalking it up to similar thinking. Once Anakin fell to the Darkside he started thinking about overthrowing Palpatine and ruling himself. You'll note its a running theme among the Darths and among the movies

Palpatine killed his master in his sleep (one can only surmise that the story Palpatine told Anakin was about his own master), in order to take over. Darth simply started considering HIS eventual take over. The fact that both of them would want an Empire only makes sense.

Besides, its not too hard to consider that before Anakin left for Mustafar that off screen Sidieous told him he was going to save the republic from itself by raising himself to emperor.

Remember, in Ep 2, we already knew that the Republic would become the Empire. We knew this in Ep 4 when the Emperor, disbanded the senate. "The last vestigaes of the old republic are gone!" remember?

It fits, IMO.


----------



## Psion (May 22, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Ah, if I heard it loud next to me I would have been pissed, too.




Normally that type of thing annoys the snot out of me, too.

But I gotta say, I couldn't restrain myself at some points. For example, when Anikan barks out "you're the sith lord!?" I couldn't help but audibly mutter "well, duh!"


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 22, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> I'm simply chalking it up to similar thinking. Once Anakin fell to the Darkside he started thinking about overthrowing Palpatine and ruling himself. You'll note its a running theme among the Darths and among the movies
> 
> Palpatine killed his master in his sleep (one can only surmise that the story Palpatine told Anakin was about his own master), in order to take over. Darth simply started considering HIS eventual take over. The fact that both of them would want an Empire only makes sense.
> 
> Besides, its not too hard to consider that before Anakin left for Mustafar that off screen Sidieous told him he was going to save the republic from itself by raising himself to emperor.



Any of that could be true, but it's not really referenced in the movie. Easiest explanation is just a slip of dialogue.



> Remember, in Ep 2, we already knew that the Republic would become the Empire. We knew this in Ep 4 when the Emperor, disbanded the senate. "The last vestigaes of the old republic are gone!" remember?



I'm not sure how this has any bearing. I'm pretty sure Vader didn't watch Ep4, so couldn't draw on it for knowledge.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 22, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Any of that could be true, but it's not really referenced in the movie. Easiest explanation is just a slip of dialogue.




I think the easiest explanation would be that in a movie that had a number of scenes cut that it wasn’t looked upon as overly important to make sure that Palpatine and Vader talked about renaming it from the Republic to the Empire.


----------



## Psion (May 22, 2005)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> I couldn't stand Anakin in Episode I, and I really got annoyed with the angsty teen in episode II. Damn you Lucas for making me finally like the guy, right before you kill him off! (well, close enough)




Well, I don't exactly "like" him, but I can stand watching him as the brooding villain more than the whiny teen.

One thing, though. I had thought that lucas' intention was to cast him as a more "sympathetic" villain here. I just wasn't seeing it.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 22, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> One thing, though. I had thought that lucas' intention was to cast him as a more "sympathetic" villain here. I just wasn't seeing it.




Not from what I got in a interview he had the other day, as in Saturday, on MSNBC Movie weekend* in which he said that he had looked at a few charming actors but wanted someone who was darker... so he went with Hayden Christopher.


----------



## drothgery (May 23, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> That and firm critics love the film...   Honest I don’t know anyone who doesn’t like the original movies.




Like them. Sure. Love them, no. The original trilogy were the first really popular space opera movies, so I think a lot of people tend to give them bonus points they don't really deserve (much like the Lord of the Rings novels -- the movies are the best fantasy ever put on the screen, the books aren't so great, but were the first populat quasi-medieval fantasy novels).


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 23, 2005)

Dave, you sure are entitled to your opinion but every list, as in the ones you see done for TV shows and like IMDB’s list and not a lost of people’s personal favorites, I've ever seen of the greatest movies of all time has at least two* Star Wars moves on it. 

* Usually ANH and ESB but sometimes only one is listed the other is imply. 

So I guess your rather unique Dave.


----------



## Psion (May 23, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Like them. Sure. Love them, no. The original trilogy were the first really popular space opera movies, so I think a lot of people tend to give them bonus points they don't really deserve




Nah.

There was, I think, a _reason_ they were popular.


----------



## Droogie (May 23, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I gave the movie a 9.  I loved the saber fights, I loved the action, I loved just about all of it.   The acting was typical of the Star Wars franchise, but I thought the plot was great.  The final fight was excellent, and Darth Sideous was great.  I thought the Frankenstein scene with Vader was great, he stumbles to his feet as he learns to walk anew with robotic legs...and screams with anguish as he realized he lost everything.  Excellent.  And as others have said, the look on his face as the mask is lowered is great.  He is a shattered person at that point.  As he screams "Nooooooooooo" as Sideous tells him Padme is dead, the last of Anakin Skywalker dies except for a tiny part hidden deep inside him, a tiny flicker that is nearly invisible.  Only Luke can see it and bring it out.



Count me in as one who liked Darth's cry of anguish. I'm not sure why this scene is so reviled; it worked for me. I'd be yelling too. At that moment, he became Darth Vader. If hatred fuels the power of the sith, what better than self hatred? Dark Lord of the Goths. Well played, Palpy. 


I enjoyed the saber battles immensely. The fight between Anakin and Obi-wan had me on the edge of my seat. Only trouble is, it now makes the saber battle in Ep 4 even MORE pathetic. 

I also agree with others that Anakin's switch was a bit abrupt. It was a longtime in the making, sure, but from a devastating "what have I done??!!" to slaughtering children with a stone face in what seemed like only moments later...

Not a deal-breaker, though. Man, I can't wait for the TV series.


----------



## drothgery (May 23, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> Nah.
> 
> There was, I think, a _reason_ they were popular.




Yes, there were was. They were the first good attempt at a space opera movie. That's why they're popular. They were creating a new market rather than trying to make a place within an existing one.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 23, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Yes, there were was. They were the first good attempt at a space opera movie. That's why they're popular. They were creating a new market rather than trying to make a place within an existing one.



Okay, so what else is there that is a Space Opera?


----------



## CrusaderX (May 23, 2005)

Droogie said:
			
		

> I also agree with others that Anakin's switch was a bit abrupt. It was a longtime in the making, sure, but from a devastating "what have I done??!!" to slaughtering children with a stone face in what seemed like only moments later...




Remember, though, Anakin slaughtered the children of the Sand People in Episode II.  Which makes the youngling slaughter in III a bit more believable.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 23, 2005)

Droogie said:
			
		

> Count me in as one who liked Darth's cry of anguish. I'm not sure why this scene is so reviled; it worked for me. I'd be yelling too. At that moment, he became Darth Vader. If hatred fuels the power of the sith, what better than self hatred? Dark Lord of the Goths. Well played, Palpy.




You know the first time I saw the movie it didn't work for me but this morning when I saw the movie for the second time it did work for me but as to why its so "loathed" I would venture the following guess:

It just screams Frankenstein but to be honest its probably meant too.  Lucas is big on symbolism and I think he wants everyone to see Vader, in armor at least, as more monster than man.


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 23, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> The original trilogy were the first really popular space opera movies...



First? There were others? How did I miss this? Chronicles of Riddick?


----------



## Hypersmurf (May 23, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Besides, its not too hard to consider that before Anakin left for Mustafar that off screen Sidieous told him he was going to save the republic from itself by raising himself to emperor.




Of course, Obi-Wan and Yoda started referring to Palpatine very casually as 'the Emperor' instead of 'the Chancellor' as well... did they even know he'd declared the Galactic Empire at that point?

-Hyp.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 23, 2005)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Of course, Obi-Wan and Yoda started referring to Palpatine very casually as 'the Emperor' instead of 'the Chancellor' as well... did they even know he'd declared the Galactic Empire at that point?




Yes, cause Palpatine declared a special session of the senate and that’s when Obi-Wan and Yoda moved to the Jedi Temple and before that they hadn’t spoken to each other in quote some time. (each had been trying to live.)


----------



## BrooklynKnight (May 23, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Yes, cause Palpatine declared a special session of the senate and that’s when Obi-Wan and Yoda moved to the Jedi Temple and before that they hadn’t spoken to each other in quote some time. (each had been trying to live.)




there are obviously some cut scenes that might make the whole thing flow better.


----------



## Kaodi (May 23, 2005)

*Obi-Wan/Yoda/Qui-Gon*

Maybe I missed something, but I thought Yoda told Obi-Wan that he would " teach you to commune with him, I shall. " or whatever the exact quote was? I don't remember him saying you had to practice to become immortal in the Force...

Personally, on first impression, I really liked this scene. It spoke to Obi-Wan actually doing something in the intervening years, other than just watching over Luke, which would of been too clichéd, and doesn't really improve on the plot. Also, him learning that that was possible has *everything* to do with him letting Vader kill him in Episode IV, and with Luke being able to destroy the Death Star. It means there is a connection between Episode III and IV for, " Use the Force, Luke. "


----------



## Henry (May 23, 2005)

I saw it twice this weekend, and enjoyed it immensely. I myself would have to rate it #2 (right below Empire Strikes Back) in my overall enjoyment of all six movies.

Favorite bits:

--The chancellor's rescue - not a wasted moment in the whole Act.
--The sandpeople scream in the background when Palpatine mentions Anakin's massacre in conversation.
--Running down the horizontal elevator shaft, that then becomes vertical.
--Cody and Obi-wan's "friendship" - it struck me as so quick and cold when Cody casually orders the firing order on Obi-wan.

Teh funny:
--I have two pekingeses at home; one reminds me of the CGI Yoda (attitude and all), the other runs and makes sounds uncannily like Obi-wan's riding lizard. 
--A fellow watcher stated his wish that Anakin would have cut down Jar Jar. I pointed out to him that Jar Jar had exactly ONE LINE in the whole film, and that line could be considered Lucas' apology for the character's very existance. 

Lucas did hit it out of the park with this one, I have to admit.


----------



## Droogie (May 24, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> Favorite bits:
> 
> --The chancellor's rescue - not a wasted moment in the whole Act.
> --The sandpeople scream in the background when Palpatine mentions Anakin's massacre in conversation.
> ...




All good ones. Notice it was "Commander Cody"? Could that be a reference to a hero from the old serials?

My faves:
--R2 shocking the droid ("ow!) then getting kicked over like a garbage can...
--Staff-wielding droid loses head, keeps fighting, surprises Obiwan...
--Some of the dialogue made me laugh. Obi and Anakin get trapped by the shield:
"How did this happen?!?! We're smarter than this!" 
To the Chancellor: "Sith Lords are our specialty."
Dooku battle: "My powers have doubled since last we met, Count."
"Excellent! Twice the pride, double the fall!"

good stuff


----------



## Mouseferatu (May 24, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> --A fellow watcher stated his wish that Anakin would have cut down Jar Jar. I pointed out to him that Jar Jar had exactly ONE LINE in the whole film, and that line could be considered Lucas' apology for the character's very existance.




Did he? I've seen it twice, and in both cases, I heard _no_ Jar-Jar dialogue. I saw him on screen a few times, but I don't remember hearing his voice even once.

What was the line, and in what scene?


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 24, 2005)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> What was the line, and in what scene?




When everyone arrives on Coruscant after the battle and meets with the Senators, Jar Jar says "Excuse me" at the end when they're all leaving.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 24, 2005)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> What was the line, and in what scene?




"Excuse me" and it happens right after Palpatine says that the senate will still press the war until General Grievous is dead and before Anakin finds out he’s going to be a daddy. 

I didn’t pick up on it till my third viewing…  

edit: Damn you AMG!  Damn you!    (same time stamp...  I think it placed them alphabetically.  )


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 24, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> edit: Damn you AMG!  Damn you!    (same time stamp...  I think it placed them alphabetically.  )




Score another one for me.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 24, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Score another one for me.



My version was more detailed.


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## Chain Lightning (May 24, 2005)

Sorry folks, I didn't read all of the posts on all of the pages.

I gave the movie a 5.


I like the ideas behind the broader plot points. I like most of the visuals. However, Lucas' writing and directing (and even editing) is still very amateurish. 

I'll start listing some negative points about the movie, but I don't think I can list them all. It would take a very very large post.

The action was badly written and most times badly filmed/choreograhed. Obi Wan and Anakin enter Grievous' flagship and everytime they encounter some battle droids, none of them shoot the Jedis when they have the drop on them. They all seem to want to "capture" them instead. 

I hate story devices like the ray shield. Just a convenient containment shield that happens to be there when the writer needs it.  Man, how annoying and expensive would it be to build this ship? You gotta put a ray shield emitter every 10' just in case! Okay, let's say this ship is special and it does have ray shields available everywhere.....why is it then that they aren't used on the Jedi right away?

I actually like the fight choreography of most of the fights. Its just too bad that most of the time (like in final duel between Obi Wan and Anakin) that its too dark or too close to see it properly. 

And the final ending to the Obi Wan/Anakin duel was badly written. Anakin jumps at enemies several times through the film and never has been cut out of the sky on the way in. And yet......Obi Wan says, "I have the highground" .... and now he can't do it without getting cut down anymore? How does being a few feet higher matter at all to someone as skilled as Anakin? One, he can jump even higher jedi style to compensate, or ...two, not jump at all and simply step down off hover droid and onto beach edge two feet away...and then resume fight. Poor ending there...very poor.

The Obi Wan vs. Grievous fight.....think we all have said this already, but Cartoon Network did Grievous better. Or, if Lucas wanted Grievous to be close to the movie version, he should've told the CN guys not too make Greivous so scary and skilled.

Also don't like it when someone needs to go look at security camera footage and they seem to get a look at what they need to see so easily. 

Not everything was tied up neatly. If an element requires a fanboy to make up his/her own excuse/theory, then Lucas didn't do a good job. Talking about Vader and the droids, Leia and her memories of her mother, etc, etc.

The movie also didn't convey the passage of time properly either. Padme goes from being newly pregnant to ...near end of her term in what seems to be only about a week or so of time. The way it is written and edited, you can't tell how much time passes between each whipe. Lucas didn't write any dialogue or other elements to help the viewer get a firm sense of this. 

Not to go back to the Clone Wars animated show too often, but they did it fairly well there. even though they only had 12 minutes to work with, the episode where Anakin and Obi wan are away on campaign is a well done example of how to convey passage of time. Obi Wan is in a trench shelter and a clone trooper reports that they'll have the enemy shields down in a few more months. Then Obi Wan says something like, "But we've been here for 2 months"..and trooper responds with, "Yes, sir...we're right on schedule". That scene made me aware that "x" amount of time has passed since Anakin and Obi Wan have been at the warfront. No scenes like that were in Episode III.

Anyways, there's much more I can bring up , but I'll cut it off here for now. I enjoyed the eye candy when i was able to take it in, but for the most part, its still a sloppy movie like Episode I and II.

Side note: Wasn't Mon Mothma supposed to be in this movie? I saw the Millenium Falcon, but I didn't see Mon Mothma anywhere.


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## D+1 (May 24, 2005)

Gave it a 7.  It gets extra credit just for being Star Wars because it otherwise really only deserves a 6.  It was better than Ep.I, or II and managed the unbelievable feat of actually making RotJ/Ep. VI _seem_ like it really was a much better movie than it _actually_ was, since it finally lays out ALL the backstory, character development and motivation.

It was stiffly-acted again by Christensen and Portman and WELL-acted again by McDiarmid and especially McGregor.  It was entertaining enough, but badly paced in the middle.  There is a definite feeling of TONS of stuff having been savagely cut for time that was DESPERATELY needed for better plot and character development.  And the lightsaber fights were defintely shot WAY WAY too tightly and edited by a meth-freak.  Oh, and the denouement sucked - even if it IS a prequel.

But I think it was good enough that I can be forgiving of Episode I, and the worst parts of Episodes II and VI.  Nice save.


----------



## Kai Lord (May 24, 2005)

I give it a 10.  Not a perfect movie, but a movie that facilitated one of the most perfect movie going *experiences* of my life.  *This* was the SW movie I've been hoping for for decades.  And its better than I would have imagined.  Bravo Lucas.  So many great moments, so many moments in the original trilogy that are now greater because of this movie.


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## Orius (May 24, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> I'm simply chalking it up to similar thinking. Once Anakin fell to the Darkside he started thinking about overthrowing Palpatine and ruling himself. You'll note its a running theme among the Darths and among the movies




In addition, when he thinks he still can pull himself out of the Dark Side here, he tries to convince Padme to go along with him and that they can rule the galaxy together after he bumps Palpatine off.  Later on, he tries the same tactic with Luke.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 24, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> In addition, when he thinks he still can pull himself out of the Dark Side here, he tries to convince Padme to go along with him and that they can rule the galaxy together after he bumps Palpatine off.  Later on, he tries the same tactic with Luke.




But I doubt it happens anywhere in between...  He has no reason to "live" any other way than as pupil.  I don’t really see him as a leader, at least in the galactic sense, and is more of a loyal follower, which makes him the best pupil to keep around.


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## takyris (May 24, 2005)

For me, it was moments of coolness in a fundamentally not-great movie. My expectations were raised too high by hearing everyone say, "No, seriously, this one is fantastic!", and then it turned out to have lame dialogue, a silly-stupid descent to the dark side (that disappointed me primarily because it was actually set up well, right up until Anakin became massively stupid all of a sudden), forced-plot stuff (we have interstellar travel, but we're supposed to believe that a high-ranking and very wealthy person could be really really worried about dying during childbirth, and then to believe that droids can't keep alive someone whose medical diagnosis is "lost will to live"), and disappointing action sequences that involved a lot of baton-twirl routines and fast-cut edits and Anakin swinging his lightsaber at the place Obi Wan was ALREADY EFFING BLOCKING, TWICE.

It had some great visuals. It had a few great lines. I thought that the setup for the descent was well done. The rest of it... meh.

Gave it a 4. Shouldn't have read the fanboy stuff talking about how great it was beforehand. If I'd gone in with no expectations, I'd have been satisfied, I imagine.


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## spatha (May 24, 2005)

The_lurkeR said:
			
		

> I disagree.
> 
> 1) If you read many of the reasons in this thread that people post for liking it, they're fanboy reasons and not actual merits of the movie*. Oooh I saw Antilles, Tarkin, Chewbacca, the Millenium Falcon, the Death Star, a Sith naming ceremony? Oooh we found out why the Emperor is deformed (maybe?), why Yoda and Obi-Wan come back as "ghosts" (but not Anakin).
> 
> ...




My wife never saw the original trilogy (she is 39 I am 33) when she was a kid and she still hasn't. The first Star Wars movie she saw was Phantom Menace. With my love of the movies knowing we'd be seeing episode 3 she watched episodes 1 and 2 just days before. Between her and my son I was answering lots of questions on who is who and why that made me go oh. But they both loved the movie. As a matter of fact my wife now wants to get the original triology on DVD so maybe this will all make a bit more sense to her. So it is not only fanboys like me that loved the movie. BTW I gave it a 10. Bets of the 6 actualy surpased Empire IMO.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (May 24, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> In addition, when he thinks he still can pull himself out of the Dark Side here, he tries to convince Padme to go along with him and that they can rule the galaxy together after he bumps Palpatine off.  Later on, he tries the same tactic with Luke.



 Yeah, he was Darth Vader all of an hour before he thought of overthrowing Sidious?  He wasn't messing around.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 24, 2005)

spatha said:
			
		

> So it is not only fanboys like me that loved the movie.




Yup, my wife isn't a star wars fan.  She'll watch the movies with me but she would never go out of her way to watch them on her own and she loved it...    (She almost cried like three times during the movie...  All to "horrible" dialog, and "unreal" characters, and "poor" actors too.)

You just can't make everyone happy. :shrug:


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## Frilf (May 24, 2005)

D+1 said:
			
		

> Oh, and the denouement sucked - even if it IS a prequel.




I love your turn of phrase here! Very unorthodox with the highly-literate "denouement" and the completely street-slang "sucked". Great stuff (and I'm not bein' facetious!) BTW, I agree. The denouement *did * suck - eggs in fact. Overall, though, I can forgive a lot just because it's Star Wars


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## Animus (May 24, 2005)

In case you were wondering:

Total Votes: 259
Mean rating: 7.529
Std. Dev.: 0.848
Median: 8


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## Darth K'Trava (May 24, 2005)

> I actually like the fight choreography of most of the fights. Its just too bad that most of the time (like in final duel between Obi Wan and Anakin) that its too dark or too close to see it properly.




Go to a different theater. I had the same gripe at the midnight showing but went Thurs evening to another theater and didn't have that same problem. It's how they (the projectionist) set the settings on the projector.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 24, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> People have always interpreted Star Wars through the eyes of their day.  Everybody knew this was a movie about the collapse of the Republic and the rise of the Empire, there had to be some political statements for the movie to even work.
> 
> I've read several reviews that say Lucas made Episode III as a modern day political allegory.  I think that's just continuing a long pattern.  Remember that Reagan used Star Wars as an allegory for the Cold War, and comparisons with the fall of Rome and Nazi Germany are also popular.  Throughout history there are familiar patterns of rise, fall, domination and rebellion, civil war and uprising, tyranny and freedom, and Star Wars is an embodiment of it all.



Maybe the reason why we see this is simply because several elements of history constantly repeat themselves, and we naturally also use them in our own stories...


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## John Crichton (May 25, 2005)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> I give it a 10.  Not a perfect movie, but a movie that facilitated one of the most perfect movie going *experiences* of my life.  *This* was the SW movie I've been hoping for for decades.  And its better than I would have imagined.  Bravo Lucas.  So many great moments, so many moments in the original trilogy that are now greater because of this movie.



 I knew eventually that we'd agree on something.


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## Wayside (May 25, 2005)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Of course, Obi-Wan and Yoda started referring to Palpatine very casually as 'the Emperor' instead of 'the Chancellor' as well... did they even know he'd declared the Galactic Empire at that point?



I don't recall it being casual at all. In the security hologram Palpatine says "Now, Lord Vader, go and bring peace to the Empire." Obi-Wan and Yoda begin referring to him as Emperor thereafter.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 25, 2005)

The only two nitpicks I really consider noteworthy here: 
1)  Who built those stupid missles that were chasing Anakin and Obi-Wan in the beginning? They hit you and then droids begin to damage your ship? Okay, that might have made sense in Matrix with the Machine Drones, but this was a bit... stupid. 
Maybe they were tired of the standard "evasive" procedures, but I still think a real dogfight would have been neater. 

2) Why didn´t Obi-Wan finish Anakin off? I mean, come on, your old friend is lying there, lost one arm and two legs, and just suffered a severe burning that will probably eventually kill him. Okay, maybe he has betrayed you, your order and the people you care for, but doesn´t he deserve a bit of mercy? If Anakin had died, it would probably have been the worst imaginable one...
Well, maybe it was the Force that made Obi-Wan do it, it "knowing" that Anakin still had to fulfilll the prophecy...


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## Kai Lord (May 25, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I knew eventually that we'd agree on something.



Yep.    Five days later and *many* scenes from the film will just pop into my head throughout the day.

1. Anakin marching up the steps of the Jedi Temple with a platoon of clones behind him.
2. Bail arriving at the scene and witnessing a young padawan (Jett Lucas I believe) sans master being overwhelmed by clones and then the clones chillingly telling Bail to just leave while he can.
3. Yoda showing up to confront Palpatine *by himself* after Mace and several Jedi *Masters* were all slaughtered in that very room.
4.  The battle of Kashyyyk; Yoda decapitating two clones in one leap and then jumping onto Chewie's back for a ride.   
5.  The opening space battle
6.  Kenobi taking on Grievous one on one just to distract him long enough for the clones to arrive.
7.  The Anakin/Obi-Wan duel!  Who says that 20+ years of expectations can't be met!  Amazingly awesome!
8.  Obi-Wan saying, "I'm sorry Anakin, I've failed you..."
9.  Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Bail on the Tantive IV
10. The Jedi purge
11. The last shot of the Tatooine sunset
12. The juxtaposition of Padme giving birth and Vader being reconstructed.

I really could just list almost every scene in the movie if I continue.  I didn't even bother reading over the posts of the people who didn't like it.  The film met and *far* exceeded my expectations, and that's just awesome.  I can't believe I just saw a Star Wars movie that both awed and kept me on edge throughout the entire picture, just like when I saw ANH and ESB in the theaters as a kid.

I loved it.  My wife loved it.  In our household this will be a movie long remembered....


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## Darth K'Trava (May 25, 2005)

Kai Lord: Two thumbs up! Those were great scenes!!


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## Viking Bastard (May 26, 2005)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> 1) Who built those stupid missles that were chasing Anakin and Obi-Wan in the beginning? They hit you and then droids begin to damage your ship? Okay, that might have made sense in Matrix with the Machine Drones, but this was a bit... stupid.



Er... the droids didn't come from the missile. The missile exploded when it hit one of the droids.


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## demiurge1138 (May 26, 2005)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> The only two nitpicks I really consider noteworthy here:
> 
> 2) Why didn´t Obi-Wan finish Anakin off? I mean, come on, your old friend is lying there, lost one arm and two legs, and just suffered a severe burning that will probably eventually kill him. Okay, maybe he has betrayed you, your order and the people you care for, but doesn´t he deserve a bit of mercy? If Anakin had died, it would probably have been the worst imaginable one...
> Well, maybe it was the Force that made Obi-Wan do it, it "knowing" that Anakin still had to fulfilll the prophecy...




Obi-Wan was obviously disgusted, both with Anakin's fall to the Dark Side and his own failings as a teacher and a friend. He couldn't bear to stay and watch his best friend die, even if he was an evil shell of his former self. It's not as if he knew the Emperor was coming to turn him into a mechanized killer.

Demiurge out.


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## Waylander the Slayer (May 26, 2005)

Voting a 10 on this movie means that it is better than Gladiator, Braveheart and LOTR right?   . 

Voted a 4 on the movie for the following reasons:

Liked the following:

1. Good Action scenes
2. Palpatine- Excellent manipulation and very well acted.

Disliked the following:
1. Darth Vader - After seeing these three movies 1 feel that i can kick his *** and based on the portrayal; whiney, bitchy and also completely unbelievable and unmasculine in any scene; One of the worst casting jobs on the planet.

2. "Turning to the dark side" - why was this again??? oh! he had dreams that his Padme was going to die and he was told by a SITH LORD that he could be taught how to save lives?? (dumb and dumber and this is supposed to be one of the greatest anti-heros in  movie hiistory), maybe he should have contacted some doctors etc? oh yeah, and to save his love (which, as written and acted is impossible to believe to be that strong/ unrequited / passionate) he goes and KILLS....kids; oh and then he almost STRANGLES and KILLS the woman for whom he turned to the dark side for? whaaat?
3. The Jedi - Honestly, with the mediclorians and this bunch of morons( they "feel" a lot of "shifting" and eeeeevil, but stand around and talk a lot), who cares? the Jedi, ultimately are unimportant and this movie took away anything heroic or tragic about them. We all know if it was not for Hans Solo and Chewy the Empire would have ruled for ever. Muhaha!!!!

George Lucas cannot direct - enough said.


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## David Howery (May 26, 2005)

saw a commercial for ROTS with some reviews.... Ebert and Roeper gave it two thumbs up (but it seems they like everything, don't they?) and some doofus said it was better than the original SW!!  Now, I haven't seen ROTS yet, but, judging from the comments on here, I highly doubt the latter review...


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## John Crichton (May 26, 2005)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> Yep.    Five days later and *many* scenes from the film will just pop into my head throughout the day.
> 
> 1. Anakin marching up the steps of the Jedi Temple with a platoon of clones behind him.
> 2. Bail arriving at the scene and witnessing a young padawan (Jett Lucas I believe) sans master being overwhelmed by clones and then the clones chillingly telling Bail to just leave while he can.
> ...



 Wow, I couldn't agree more.  I, too, have mostly been ignoring the posts of folks that didn't like the film.  It was too much damn fun.  I can't believe I've only seen it once so far.

The scenes you mentioned are all the ones I would, too.  The only one you left out was the scene of Anakin burning and Obi-wan leaving him there.  I can't get that one out of my head no matter how hard I try.


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## stevelabny (May 26, 2005)

Waylander the Slayer said:
			
		

> Disliked the following:
> 1. Darth Vader - After seeing these three movies 1 feel that i can kick his *** and based on the portrayal; whiney, bitchy and also completely unbelievable and unmasculine in any scene; One of the worst casting jobs on the planet.




Yikes. It rears its head again. This has NOTHING to do with casting. He was WRITTEN as a whiny, bitchy, unmasculine, flip-flopping, angry bratty kid. Hayden did an EXCELLENT job of portraying the angry bratty kid. The fact that none of us wanted Darth Vader to be an angry bratty kid doesn't mean Hayden can't act. 

I feel bad for this poor kid. His career is gonna be destroyed from people that can't seperate his acting from the script.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 26, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> The fact that *none of us* wanted Darth Vader to be an angry bratty kid doesn't mean Hayden can't act.




That's some mighty big generalizing...


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## Kai Lord (May 26, 2005)

Waylander the Slayer said:
			
		

> Voting a 10 on this movie means that it is better than Gladiator,



Oh goodness yes.  YES.



			
				Waylander the Slayer said:
			
		

> Braveheart



Yep.  



			
				Waylander the Slayer said:
			
		

> and LOTR right?   .



Oh I don't know about that, but LOTR are 10's also.  There's more than enough love to cover both ROTS and LOTR.


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## Kai Lord (May 26, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> The scenes you mentioned are all the ones I would, too.  The only one you left out was the scene of Anakin burning and Obi-wan leaving him there.  I can't get that one out of my head no matter how hard I try.



Yep, that's a big one, but I had to stop somewhere.      Almost every negative emotion you could imagine exuded in one mangled form.  Hate, agony, rage, jealousy.  And then Obi-Wan's heartbreak.  One of the most pivotal scenes of the entire saga, and it was executed outstandingly.  What an achievement.

And to add one more scene just because it was my wife's favorite:

A very pregnant Padme telling Anakin, "You're breaking my heart, where you're going I cannot follow..."  My wife said it almost moved her to tears.

Then there's Anakin using the Vader choke trick for the first time *on his wife*.  
Nute Gunray pleading for his life, utterly confused as to why he was about to be executed.  No "ha ha, you've been tricked, your usefulness is over," just a merciless killer that shows up and slaughters his entire entourage and Gunray himself in one ruthless stroke.  I actually felt half sorry for him.
And don't even get me started on Anakin tempting Padme to rule the galaxy together.  Ah!  What a great movie!  I'm an excited nerdy kid all over again.  I'm even thinking of what dorky Kenner toy I can get from the movie and display on my desk at work.  Good times.


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## takyris (May 26, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Wow, I couldn't agree more.  I, too, have mostly been ignoring the posts of folks that didn't like the film.  It was too much damn fun.  I can't believe I've only seen it once so far.
> 
> The scenes you mentioned are all the ones I would, too.  The only one you left out was the scene of Anakin burning and Obi-wan leaving him there.  I can't get that one out of my head no matter how hard I try.




And yet, if someone posted and said, "I thought this film was lame, and I'm ignoring all the posts by people who didn't think it was lame," I imagine that would result in some kind of negative feedback.

As someone who did think the film was lame, I'm even reading the posts that disagree with mine. I'm reading with a mixture of surprise, incredulity, and disappointment, but I'm reading nonetheless.

Some wonderful moments, some excellent visuals, a good setup for Anakin's fall, and then a massively disappointingly thuddingly clunky script that provoked more unintentional laughs than tears in the theater when I saw it.

Nevertheless, all matters of enjoyment are inherently subjective. I'm glad the movie worked for most folks. I just wish I'd heard less glowing praise beforehand. I would have gone in without huge expectations and been much more satisfied overall.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 26, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> And yet, if someone posted and said, "I thought this film was lame, and I'm ignoring all the posts by people who didn't think it was lame," I imagine that would result in some kind of negative feedback.




As long as they're not calling out individual posters I doubt that would happen, ENworld is a very friendly place after all.

Its just very hard to figure out how someone’s 9, in my case, could be someone else’s 4, at least I think that’s what you gave it but I apologize if I’m wrong.  I would rather not come off argumentative and most people on the internet have already made there opinions and your not going to change them that its very hard to reply to post that are so different.  

I am sorry you didn’t like the movie but the old saying that you can’t please everyone is very true it seems.


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## takyris (May 26, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Its just very hard to figure out how someone’s 9, in my case, could be someone else’s 4, at least I think that’s what you gave it but I apologize if I’m wrong.  I would rather not come off argumentative and most people on the internet have already made there opinions and your not going to change them that its very hard to reply to post that are so different.




I can't say why you gave it a 9 -- which is not to say that your number is invalid, just that I don't know you -- but I can say why I gave it a 4.

I've got bad eyes. I mean, I wear glasses to read, but I don't need glasses to drive -- I don't mean bad like that. I mean bad as in not really being huge on the environment. In real life, I get lost all the time. My wife is the one who handles directions, unless there's a map to follow -- I'm not stupid, and I can follow a map competently, it's just that if I'm on my own, I always get lost, because I don't really pay attention to landmarks and the background scenery and all the other things that help you not get lost when driving.

When I write, all of my friends know that the first draft of anything I send is going to have wonderful dialogue -- final-draft-quality dialogue, in some cases -- and almost no setting whatsoever, because I'm lousy at setting. I just don't care about setting in my writing, just like I don't care about my surroundings when I'm driving. I can tell you what we talked about in the car, possibly quoting line-for-line, and I can tell you what mood you were in while we were driving, but I probably won't be able to tell you about the scenery.

This came up in the _Sin City_, and it's tough to say without sounding like a snob, but I don't really think of it as a snobbish comment: I require good dialogue. Require it. If the dialogue isn't good, if the writing doesn't snap, I'm not going to be happy. And my requirements for "good" are probably higher than most people's. That doesn't make me better than most people. That just makes me different. (And my requirements for setting and environment are a ton lower than most people's requirements in that area.)

I will grant freely that Ep3 probably had marvelous special effects -- but that doesn't factor into my rating, because I don't care about special effects. That probably accounts for a few points of rating difference.

In my opinion, the dialogue was bad. Not mediocre, not less-than-stellar -- actively bad. Howlingly bad in some cases. There were a few good lines mixed in there, but the dialogue absolutely clunked most of the time. People whose hearts are breaking almost never specifically say, "You're breaking my heart!" People almost never say, "No, I'm so happy because I'm in love with YOU!" People who are feeling a specific emotion rarely directly tell other people that they are feeling that specific emotion. Learning how to get the emotion across to the audience without having to tell the audience explicitly is one of the basics of screenwriting. Lucas blew it.

Lucas set up the tragedy to hinge upon the depth of emotion one man has for one woman, and then he evidently wrote the dialogue for the scenes meant to portray that emotion on the back of a progress report on the ambient light color mixture for background shots on Coruscant in act two and never bothered to rewrite any of it.

So, if me not caring about special effects accounts for some of the discrepency, let's assume that me caring a lot about dialogue accounts for some more.

The plot had enough holes to bother me. While people have vigorously defended the logistics of Anakin's fall and come up with great backstory material to explain why it wasn't really as stupid and sloppy as it seemed to many viewers, none of those vigorous defenses make up for the fact that it still seemed stupid and rushed in the movie when I was sitting there watching it. (That's just the big major one, which was especially disappointing given the relative skill with which the lead-up to Anakin's fall was handled. The minor stuff, like pregnancy being life-threatening in a culture that has limb-replacement cybertechnology and interstellar travel or droids diagnosing people as dying because they have lost the will to live, was just the silly icing on the cake for me.) 

If you're swimming in a tropical bay, and you can't see the bottom, it's either because the water is deep, or because the water is murky. Deep is good. Murky is not. Lucas's plot was not deep enough to require as much online defense of the events that took place in order for it to make logical sense. _Matrix Reloaded_, for all that many people disliked it, at least had some deep stuff hidden under all that silly word-of-the-day vocabulary bluster. Episode 3 did not.

Finally, the action was hit-or-miss for me. It wasn't bad, but it didn't wow me. I thought that the artistic displays during the lightsaber duels ended up hurting the overall effect in some areas, because the actual choreography wasn't that great. This is, again, likely a me-specific complaint, because I'm a fight-scene snob and enough of a martial artist to be able to watch a fight critically. I don't care about realism -- realism can go hang when I'm looking for swashbuckling adventure -- but I do care about plausible choreography. I don't care if you do lots of flashy twirls between attacks, provided that your attacks make sense -- and there were enough times when the attacks didn't make sense here that it irked me.

Oddly, it was mostly the saber-to-saber stuff that bothered me the most -- when it was jedi against droids or Obi Wan against Grievous, that didn't bother me, and in fact I quite enjoyed those fights. But almost every fight between two humanoids with lightsabers ended up with me muttering, "Why in the name of Carrie Fisher's bikini would you swing your lightsaber at a spot someone was already blocking? If you're Vader and can actually beat down an opponent's block, that's one thing, but you're fencing here. Are you an idiot, or is this some massively deep psychological trick like when Bugs Bunny switches his line from "Oh yes I will!" to "Oh no I won't!" in the middle of an argument, so that Elmer Fudd will fall for the trick and switch his argument to "Oh yes you will!" and end up shooting himself in the face with a shotgun?"

What bothered me most, though, was that especially with the lightsaber stuff, people's skill depended solely on the plot in too many places. It's the same reason that Blade 2 utterly failed for me as an action movie. Blade would be parrying and slashing and dodging and totally untouchable in one scene, and then in another scene, the big uber-vamp guy would swing a concrete column at him, and Blade would somehow forget how to dodge and just do a big dumb high block and stand there so that the bad guy could kick him. And then, three seconds later, Blade would do it again. His ability went away whenever the plot demanded it. In this movie, Obi Wan gets punked by Count Dooku for no good reason, given the skill he shows later against Anakin and Grievous. Anakin, who has taken out hundreds of battle droids with crazy acrobatic stunts and defeated Count Dooku and spent most of the fight against Obi Wan doing crazy unrealistic stunts (sure, spin around backwards, why not, the Force is gonna protect you on that, go for it), suddenly decides at the end that the best thing he can do under the circumstances is to try to jump over a guy with a lightsaber? And hey, that's not the stupidest thing he's done -- that only bothers me a little, and I can almost see the dramatic necessity of having Anakin fall because of some flashy move he felt compelled to do. But after all the crazy stuff he's done, he's now suddenly unable to block or lift his legs a bit more while jumping? Really? How many flips have we seen Anakin do? I mean, even accepting that the plot demanded he try to jump over Anakin and not off to the side, why in heaven's name wouldn't he do one of those flips and block down? It's not just the stupidity of the move -- it's the fact that he's done stupider but shown the ability to get away with it, even against well-trained and very skilled opponents.

So, to sum it up: I watched Episode 3 hoping for a really good plot, fun dialogue, and exciting fight scenes. I got a lot of special effects that were probably good but didn't really impress me because that ain't my thing, a lackluster plot, lame dialogue, and fight scenes that were hit or miss. Hence, my rating of 4. It was a very expensive, much-anticipated movie that might well have been made specificially to fail in the areas I find important.

If you like special effects, don't really care about dialogue in terms of critical assessment, didn't notice the weird stuff in the lightsaber fights because it's fast enough and quick-cut edited enough to hide it, and don't mind coming up with your own explanations to plug the plotholes, then I imagine that the movie is a great experience.

*And that's a good thing for you.*


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 26, 2005)

takyris, I thought the dialog and the plot where quite good.


----------



## Welverin (May 26, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> Well, I don't exactly "like" him, but I can stand watching him as the brooding villain more than the whiny teen.




It's funny how often this is brought up despite the fact we never see him as a teenager.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Droogie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




My explanation:
People expect prequel Anakin/Vader to act like OT Vader, when they don't get the dark menacing character we all know and love they react negatively.



			
				Animus said:
			
		

> In case you were wondering:
> 
> Total Votes: 259
> Mean rating: 7.529
> ...




I was wondering about that.



			
				Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> 2) Why didn´t Obi-Wan finish Anakin off? I mean, come on, your old friend is lying there, lost one arm and two legs, and just suffered a severe burning that will probably eventually kill him. Okay, maybe he has betrayed you, your order and the people you care for, but doesn´t he deserve a bit of mercy? If Anakin had died, it would probably have been the worst imaginable one...
> Well, maybe it was the Force that made Obi-Wan do it, it "knowing" that Anakin still had to fulfilll the prophecy...




He did tell Yoda he wouldn't/couldn't kill Anakin, plus Anakin was on fire when Obi-Wan left, so as far as he knew Anakin was as good as dead (but not Eddie Vedder).



			
				Waylander the Slayer said:
			
		

> Voting a 10 on this movie means that it is better than Gladiator, Braveheart and LOTR right?  .




Doesn't take much to be better than Gladiator, LotR is far from perfect, and as for Braveheart, well a ten point scale doesn't have much granularity.



			
				David Howery said:
			
		

> saw a commercial for ROTS with some reviews.... Ebert and Roeper gave it two thumbs up (but it seems they like everything, don't they?)




Hardly, watch the show for a month and say that without lying.



			
				John Crichton said:
			
		

> Wow, I couldn't agree more.  I, too, have mostly been ignoring the posts of folks that didn't like the film.  It was too much damn fun.  I can't believe I've only seen it once so far.




Slacker, I saw it twice on opening day, of course the second time was with family and seeing as how my brother came all the way from Vermont, how could I not?



			
				stevelabny said:
			
		

> Yikes. It rears its head again. This has NOTHING to do with casting. He was WRITTEN as a whiny, bitchy, unmasculine, flip-flopping, angry bratty kid. Hayden did an EXCELLENT job of portraying the angry bratty kid. The fact that none of us wanted Darth Vader to be an angry bratty kid doesn't mean Hayden can't act.
> 
> I feel bad for this poor kid. His career is gonna be destroyed from people that can't seperate his acting from the script.




Go Steve!



			
				Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> That's some mighty big generalizing...




Maybe we should assume he means the people who don't like him?


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 26, 2005)

Welverin said:
			
		

> My explanation:
> People expect prequel Anakin/Vader to act like OT Vader, when they don't get the dark menacing character we all know and love they react negatively.




Oh there is no doubt about that, but that wasn't why the scene didn't work for me the first time.   (It has worked since then though.)


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## Flexor the Mighty! (May 26, 2005)

I had a tremendous amount of fun watching it in the theater.  I am very hard pressed to think of the last time I had that much fun at a movie, even though at times I felt very sad for some of the characters.  I never wondered if it was going to be over soon as I did in a couple of other highly touted movies of recent past.  I thought the plot was fine.  It all clicked for me.  Dialogue is secondary to plot and overall story for me so I was fine there too, but even I won't say that the dialogue was great, it was Star Wars dialogue.  

So for me it was a great movie.  I plan to go see it at least twice more at the theater before I buy the DVD.  And I usually don't go see movies at the theater more than once anymore.  YMMV of course.


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## stevelabny (May 26, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> That's some mighty big generalizing...




wait... after watching the original trilogy, and knowing that the prequels would be about the fall on Anakin, instead of some epic fall from grace, with a noble young hero doing the wrong things for the right reasons or feeling such deep betrayal that he felt he had no choice but to turn to the dark side and embraced evil in righteous anger, you envisioned a whiny bratty kid who felt he wasnt getting enough respect from the old people and had nightmares about his trophy wife dying? 

Um, well ok if you say so, then I'll edit what i said to "none of us...well except that one guy"


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 26, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> wait... after watching the original trilogy, and knowing that the prequels would be about the fall on Anakin, instead of some epic fall from grace, with a noble young hero doing the wrong things for the right reasons or feeling such deep betrayal that he felt he had no choice but to turn to the dark side and embraced evil in righteous anger, you envisioned a whiny bratty kid who felt he wasnt getting enough respect from the old people and had nightmares about his trophy wife dying?
> 
> Um, well ok if you say so, then I'll edit what i said to "none of us...well except that one guy"



 There's a difference between 'wanted' and 'expected'.

Either way, I would avoid sweeping generalizations. Its very rare they aren't proved to be wrong. Unless, of course, you've polled the entire planet on what they wanted.

And Anakin wasn't anymore whiny or bratty than most kids that are told how much more special they are than the rest of the world and how great they are.


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## stevelabny (May 26, 2005)

right and the other lie told to kids today is that stereotypes and generalizations are bad.
they aren't. if someone says "nobody wanted this" it OBVIOUSLY means "most people didnt want this" 

generalizations are a useful and necessary part of conversation, because if you have to leave room for every possible exception to every possible statement conversations would never get finished.

which is of course why, theres so many nimrods running around the net wasting our time telling us that their movie review is their "opinion".  no, really sherlock?  and here i thought that if i said a movie sucks it must be a FACT. 

and for the record, anecdotal evidence is fine by me too.


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## Villano (May 26, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> In my opinion, the dialogue was bad. Not mediocre, not less-than-stellar -- actively bad. Howlingly bad in some cases. There were a few good lines mixed in there, but the dialogue absolutely clunked most of the time. People whose hearts are breaking almost never specifically say, "You're breaking my heart!" People almost never say, "No, I'm so happy because I'm in love with YOU!" People who are feeling a specific emotion rarely directly tell other people that they are feeling that specific emotion. Learning how to get the emotion across to the audience without having to tell the audience explicitly is one of the basics of screenwriting. Lucas blew it.




One critic described the film as good, but not good with a capital "G".  That was my feeling, too.  It was much better than AotC, and much, much, much better than TPM.  However, it still had some major problems, namely the writing.  

I agree, the dialogue was terrible.  One bit that really bothered me was Anakin, now Vader, telling Obi-Wan, "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil" (or words to that effect).  That sounds unnatural.  

I've heard that audiences laughed at the Anakin/Padme "You're so beautiful" exchange.  No one did in the audience I was in, however they did laugh when Yoda said, "Good relations with the Wookies, I have."  I guess everyone was imagining a Yoda/Chewbacca sex tape.  It would explain why he missed him so much.   



> What bothered me most, though, was that especially with the lightsaber stuff, people's skill depended solely on the plot in too many places.




The one point where it really stood out was Sidious vs Mace and the 3 other Jedi.   After Sidious drew his lightsaber and leapt at them, the 3 just stood there like idiots.  I don't think they even raised their weapons before he cut them down.


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## The Grumpy Celt (May 26, 2005)

Villano said:
			
		

> ...however they did laugh when Yoda said, "Good relations with the Wookies, I have."  I guess everyone was imagining a Yoda/Chewbacca sex tape...





Wow. Thinking about that... There are many paths and forces that move a man to the Dark Side.

Having seen the movie, and some real opera, and read the comments here I am reminded that Lucas has said (more than once) the movies are Space Opera. 

I wonder if people would have same criticism of the movie if the scenes that were supposed to be emotional (e.g. the balcony scene) were sung in German, or Italian or possibly Twilik. On the flip side, if the actors in _Faust_ or _Don Juan_ simply said their lines, how would people react?

This is possibly a moot point. It was spoken and was not sung. 

Pity. Sung Twilik is really catchy.

In any event, I am going to sign on as someone generally pleased by the movie. I thought the parallels between the birth of the twins and the burial of Anakin in Vader’s armor was nicely done. 

Anakin gets to spend the next 25 years or so of his life (from that point until the hanger scene in RotJ) in Hell. The novel RotS read that part of Anakin would always been burning besides the river of fire, and I believed it. What got off of the table was not the boy who gave an older women a bit of polished wood, or even the surly youth, but something else entirely. Hence the Frankenstein like moment.

And in the battle between Palpatine and Yoda, we learn why the Jedi master was afraid of the Emperor even years later.

"Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor," Yoda said. "My butt, he kicked."


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 26, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> wait... after watching the original trilogy, and knowing that the prequels would be about the fall on Anakin, instead of some epic fall from grace, with a noble young hero doing the wrong things for the right reasons or feeling such deep betrayal that he felt he had no choice but to turn to the dark side and embraced evil in righteous anger, you envisioned a whiny bratty kid who felt he wasnt getting enough respect from the old people and had nightmares about his trophy wife dying?




AMG and others, myself included, are well versed in the Star Wars...  I see little reason to belittle our opinions.


----------



## Droogie (May 27, 2005)

Takyris,

From the sound of it, you are a serious writer with a degree of talent that most of us don't possess, and you don't care for visuals. Based on this short profile, I'm not surprised that you didn't like the film. 

You are also a martial artist, so I can see why you would view the fight choreography in ANY film with a hyper-critical eye, which is to be expected, I suppose. From what I understand, most stage fighting is designed to look exciting rather than realistic; a theater guy I once knew said that if someone tried to fence in real life like they do in the movies, it would be analogous to a boxer fighting his opponent with his arms outstretched to his sides with his hands open.

I'm not trying to make you like the film. Why would I? - I guess my point, which is also one of yours, is 'different strokes' for different folks', and you and Episode III are a bad match. I'm sorry you wasted your 10 bucks.


----------



## takyris (May 27, 2005)

Droogie said:
			
		

> Takyris,
> 
> From the sound of it, you are a serious writer with a degree of talent that most of us don't possess, and you don't care for visuals. Based on this short profile, I'm not surprised that you didn't like the film.




Serious writer, yes. Degree of talent... eh. We'll see. I'm just gonna own the snobbiness of being hard to impress and easy to let down with dialogue.

And yeah. My geek buddies are always confused when I say that I'll wait for the movie to come out on DVD, so that I can watch it at home on my small screen and non-stereo speakers... with the subtitles turned on.



> You are also a martial artist, so I can see why you would view the fight choreography in ANY film with a hyper-critical eye, which is to be expected, I suppose. From what I understand, most stage fighting is designed to look exciting rather than realistic; a theater guy I once knew said that if someone tried to fence in real life like they do in the movies, it would be analogous to a boxer fighting his opponent with his arms outstretched to his sides with his hands open.




Definitely true. That's also probably why I only noticed it in saber-to-saber fights. My experience with dodging blaster shots from droids is... limited.

But I do like cinematic fights. I loved the fights in "Pirates of the Caribbean", and I loved the the big Darth Maul/Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan fight in Ep1. Heck, it was awhile ago, so I might not like it today, but I even remember liking the fights in the Kevin Costner Robin-Hood movie. I don't remember thinking that the man was going to be a fighting legend, but I remember thinking that he really wanted to kill the bad guy.



> I'm not trying to make you like the film. Why would I? - I guess my point, which is also one of yours, is 'different strokes' for different folks', and you and Episode III are a bad match. I'm sorry you wasted your 10 bucks.




I honestly think I'd rate it higher if I hadn't seen all the early praise for it that got my hopes too far up. Probably a good reason for me to avoid spoilers in the future.

And fortunately, Bioware rented out a theater and took all the employees Tuesday morning, so it wasn't my 10 bucks. 

But you are totally right -- different strokes for different folks. Anybody who is happy with their 10-buck-expenditure made a smart decision.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (May 27, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> As long as they're not calling out individual posters I doubt that would happen, ENworld is a very friendly place after all.
> 
> Its just very hard to figure out how someone’s 9, in my case, could be someone else’s 4, at least I think that’s what you gave it but I apologize if I’m wrong.  I would rather not come off argumentative and most people on the internet have already made there opinions and your not going to change them that its very hard to reply to post that are so different.
> 
> I am sorry you didn’t like the movie but the old saying that you can’t please everyone is very true it seems.





That's so very true. What I think is different from what the next person thinks. I think it rates about as high as the LOTR films for quality. I thoroughly enjoyed the movie and so did my friends who went with me to see it.


----------



## Lazybones (May 27, 2005)

It looks like the consensus was that the movie was good to great. 

I gave it a 7, but after reading the posts here (and I think takyris makes great points), I think that my rating is conditional on the following assumptions: 


If I hadn't recently seen Ep.1 and Ep.2 again, it probably would have been 6; and 
If it hadn't been "Star Wars", and set in the context of Eps.4-6, it probably would have been a 5.

I guess I should explain my comment a bit. I agreed with takyris on almost all of his points; the dialogue, the fights, the illogical plot developments. My group's comments afterwards were mocks of the dialogue between Anakin and Padme, comments like, "So Anakin fell because he couldn't get a good OB-GYN," and so on. I thought it unconvincing that Anakin went from brooding youth (basically an okay guy, if full of himself) to slaughtering children in the course of an hour.  I also felt that there were too many "silly" bits in the serious action-drama scenes (pretty much anything featuring R2-D2 was like this), but I know that this is a Lucas hallmark so I let it slide. Some things were illogical enough to be distracting; the little droids that crawl over your ship cutting it up (why not just put a little bomb in them?), the "ray shields", the "high ground", the "lost the will to live".  I think I'll stop my list now before I talk myself down to takyris's 4.   

I did appreciate the cool elements that made reference to events later in Ep.4, and I think they resolved everything well enough so that it all fit together in the context of the four movies. The special effects were great, the action pretty good.  But while I gave it a "C" mark, I can't call it a good movie. I won't be getting the DVD but I may watch it again on its broadcast premiere.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (May 27, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I had a tremendous amount of fun watching it in the theater.  I am very hard pressed to think of the last time I had that much fun at a movie, even though at times I felt very sad for some of the characters.  I never wondered if it was going to be over soon as I did in a couple of other highly touted movies of recent past.  I thought the plot was fine.  It all clicked for me.  Dialogue is secondary to plot and overall story for me so I was fine there too, but even I won't say that the dialogue was great, it was Star Wars dialogue.
> 
> So for me it was a great movie.  I plan to go see it at least twice more at the theater before I buy the DVD.  And I usually don't go see movies at the theater more than once anymore.  YMMV of course.




I had fun watching it in the theater as well! The action kept coming so fast that we didn't have time to think, how much of this is left? We were engrossed *that* much!   



> Slacker, I saw it twice on opening day, of course the second time was with family and seeing as how my brother came all the way from Vermont, how could I not?




I saw it TWICE. On opening day! Both the midnight showing and that night as well!   I even went on a four-hour round trip to get a friend from the other side of Charlotte so he could experience it with a bunch of fans (the midnight showing) and again that evening with a different group of friends (who were also fans but not "fan enough" to go to the midnight showing!   ). He thoroughly enjoyed it as well, getting totally engrossed in the story and then "jamming out" on the soundtrack afterwards!


----------



## Darth K'Trava (May 27, 2005)

Villano said:
			
		

> I've heard that audiences laughed at the Anakin/Padme "You're so beautiful" exchange.  No one did in the audience I was in, however they did laugh when Yoda said, "Good relations with the Wookies, I have."  I guess everyone was imagining a Yoda/Chewbacca sex tape.  It would explain why he missed him so much.




 

I wonder how long it'll take before people start writing that slash.....   





> The one point where it really stood out was Sidious vs Mace and the 3 other Jedi.   After Sidious drew his lightsaber and leapt at them, the 3 just stood there like idiots.  I don't think they even raised their weapons before he cut them down.




I think they were more WFT? than anything at that point... shocked to see the Chancellor suddenly draw a lightsaber... The shock that cost 2 their lives.... the third did get in a few swings before he too went down. Then it was the more epic type fight between Palpatine and Mace.


----------



## Testament (May 27, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> Yikes. It rears its head again. This has NOTHING to do with casting. He was WRITTEN as a whiny, bitchy, unmasculine, flip-flopping, angry bratty kid. Hayden did an EXCELLENT job of portraying the angry bratty kid. The fact that none of us wanted Darth Vader to be an angry bratty kid doesn't mean Hayden can't act.
> 
> I feel bad for this poor kid. His career is gonna be destroyed from people that can't seperate his acting from the script.




Damn straight.  I will say this though, Hayden Christensen is a good actor.  Don't believe me, then go see "Shattered Glass".


----------



## Wayside (May 27, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> Definitely true. That's also probably why I only noticed it in saber-to-saber fights. My experience with dodging blaster shots from droids is... limited.



We don't have any equivalent style of combat though. The weightlessness of sabers, coupled with the fact that they can cut someone in half without much application of pressure, would make realistic saber battles mostly uninteresting, from a spectator's point of view. I think Ep III actually had the first realistic use of sabers so far in all of Star Wars, which was when Anakin cut off Dooku's hands, and then later when Obi-wan similarly removed one of Grevious'. They're light, they're fast, and you don't need strength to use them to maximum effect. So I can buy the objection to some of the choreography I guess (swinging at a defense that's already been raised and all), but if you really want to stake out that position why not go all the way and force the saber battles to be totally uninteresting? Realistically, you'd never see an exaggerated movement from a Jedi because they don't need to gather any momentum to do lethal damage, so a real saber fight wouldn't have anything in the way of broad swinging at all; it should stay mostly centered and consist of quick searching movements toward the other guy's hands.


----------



## ddvmor (May 27, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Quote:
> <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">The one point where it really stood out was Sidious vs Mace and the 3 other Jedi. After Sidious drew his lightsaber and leapt at them, the 3 just stood there like idiots. I don't think they even raised their weapons before he cut them down. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
> I think they were more WFT? than anything at that point... shocked to see the Chancellor suddenly draw a lightsaber... The shock that cost 2 their lives.... the third did get in a few swings before he too went down. Then it was the more epic type fight between Palpatine and Mace.




Or of course, Palpatine could have been using some of his Dark Side Mojo to cause  a moment of confusion in which to launch his attack.  I don't recall Windu doing much more than standing there looking confused, either.


----------



## Captain Tagon (May 27, 2005)

Testament said:
			
		

> Damn straight.  I will say this though, Hayden Christensen is a good actor.  Don't believe me, then go see "Shattered Glass".





::shrug::

Watching that movie was like watching whiney Anakin all over again. Then again, the real Stephen Glass isn't much better.


----------



## stevelabny (May 27, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> AMG and others, myself included, are well versed in the Star Wars...  I see little reason to belittle our opinions.




i asked a question, that I still didnt get an answer to.

Before the prequels were released, did you really WANT (or even expect) Anakin to be a whiny brat as opposed to a cool bad guy? I still believe that the vast vast vast majority answers this question NO. 

If you think my wording implies that if you DID want him to be a whiny brat that I'm belittling you... youre taking offense at things unsaid.  

It wouldn't be belittling, it would be more like utter confusion or maybe some sympathy.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 27, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> i asked a question, that I still didnt get an answer to.




Unfortunately, I cannot give you a true answer to that question cause its not an honest question.

Do I have issues with what was on screen?  Nope, did I think Anakin was whinny?  No, it’s not the word I would use.  (I would use headstrong and stubborn.)  Do I have issues with Anakin falling because of love?  NONE, why cause it was expected in my opinion.  How did the ultimate movie villain redeem himself?  Out of love. 

Hardly a coincidence in my opinion.


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 27, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> Some wonderful moments, some excellent visuals, a good setup for Anakin's fall, and then a massively disappointingly thuddingly clunky script that provoked more unintentional laughs than tears in the theater when I saw it.



This is why I wait and go to matinees with normal people.  The geek heavy early crowds laugh too easily and cry not easily enough.  And believe it or not, whether the people around you are enjoying it or not is a powerful social cue that lets you know whether you should be enjoying it.


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 27, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> i asked a question, that I still didnt get an answer to.
> 
> Before the prequels were released, did you really WANT (or even expect) Anakin to be a whiny brat as opposed to a cool bad guy?



Well, maybe you're not getting an answer because you're setting up a false dichotomy.

I expected neither of those things.  Actually, I expected him to be a powerful, if somewhat sullen kid who Obi-wan arrogantly elected to train against Yoda's wishes.  Luckily, I got something a whole lot more interesting than that rather pedestrian story.

Why would anyone expect him to start off as a cool villain?  Aside from the fact that it would have made the decision to train him an obvious bad move instead of the iffy one it was, cool villains are not born, they are crafted by circumstance and high drama.


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 27, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> ...disappointing action sequences that involved a lot of baton-twirl routines and fast-cut edits and Anakin swinging his lightsaber at the place Obi Wan was ALREADY EFFING BLOCKING, TWICE.



And this is worse than the several times in tPM where Obi-wan noticeably waits for Maul's block to get into place before swinging?

I fail to understand how someone with martial arts training can prefer that fight to those in Revenge of the Sith.  Ultimately, it come back to different strokes for different folks, as martial arts training is apparently telling the two of us very different things about the fights in question.  But as you are fond of saying, that's OK. 

Personally, I found only 1 moment in the fight that I really didn't like from a technical standpoint (though the whole thing was so fast that it was tough to spot glaring errors, and I'm happy to chalk up the kind of blocks you're complaining about to Obi-wan seeing the attack coming before Anakin launched it).  I merely find myself wishing that there had been a bit more conversation between the combatants.  The Yoda-Palpy duel was just fine with little conversation.  After all, what do those two really have to say to each other after the initial trash talk?  But I would have loved to see Obi-wan and Anakin really get into it emotionally.  They knew each other Master and Apprentice and as brothers.  Obi-wan could have thrown Anakins beliefs about democracy and love in his face, and followed that up with asking him if what he just did to Padme is the act of someone who truly loves her.  Ideally, I would have liked to see Anakin's doubts about his course be the reason he lost the duel, not his arrogance about his abilities.  But that's just a difference in perspective between me and Lucas, and doesn't really affect my enjoyment of the film as it stands.  Now, if someone puts me in charge of a remake in about 20 years....


----------



## takyris (May 27, 2005)

Wayside said:
			
		

> We don't have any equivalent style of combat though. The weightlessness of sabers, coupled with the fact that they can cut someone in half without much application of pressure, would make realistic saber battles mostly uninteresting, from a spectator's point of view.




With respect, I don't think this is exactly accurate. You seem to be implying that Lucas was trying for a hard-science look at how lightsabers would really work in a fight, which would be pretty silly for him to do after five earlier movies in which they were pretty obviously treated as swords that glowed and were light enough to make the cool fast swings possible.



> I think Ep III actually had the first realistic use of sabers so far in all of Star Wars, which was when Anakin cut off Dooku's hands, and then later when Obi-wan similarly removed one of Grevious'. They're light, they're fast, and you don't need strength to use them to maximum effect.




I didn't mind either of those bits -- in fact, I quite enjoyed parts of the Obi-wan/Grievous fight and chuckled at the pragmatism of getting Grievous down to a reasonable number of lightsabers. Those scenes would also work well for me with movie-katanas, however (which are different from regular katanas in that they are infinitely sharp and can cut through anything if you swing correctly, even if you're not a muscled powerhouse).



> So I can buy the objection to some of the choreography I guess (swinging at a defense that's already been raised and all), but if you really want to stake out that position why not go all the way and force the saber battles to be totally uninteresting? Realistically, you'd never see an exaggerated movement from a Jedi because they don't need to gather any momentum to do lethal damage, so a real saber fight wouldn't have anything in the way of broad swinging at all; it should stay mostly centered and consist of quick searching movements toward the other guy's hands.




Because that's silly, from a swashbuckling space opera standpoint. I don't want realistic saber fights. I want cinematic and exciting saber fights. As I said earlier:



			
				Me said:
			
		

> I don't care about realism -- realism can go hang when I'm looking for swashbuckling adventure -- but I do care about plausible choreography. I don't care if you do lots of flashy twirls between attacks, provided that your attacks make sense -- and there were enough times when the attacks didn't make sense here that it irked me.




And:



> But I do like cinematic fights. I loved the fights in "Pirates of the Caribbean", and I loved the the big Darth Maul/Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan fight in Ep1. Heck, it was awhile ago, so I might not like it today, but I even remember liking the fights in the Kevin Costner Robin-Hood movie. I don't remember thinking that the man was going to be a fighting legend, but I remember thinking that he really wanted to kill the bad guy.




I'm quite content to chalk it up to different strokes (and Canis, I only watched Ep1 once, and that was in a theater, so it's very possible that I'd be bothered by the things you mentioned, but I like it just fine in my memory  ), but I did want to correct the misconception that what I wanted was realism and that thinking about the differences between lightsabers and ordinary movie-swords would make it better for me.

Realism is highly overrated in almost any action movie, and even more so in Star Wars.


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (May 27, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> Realism is highly overrated in almost any action movie, and even more so in Star Wars.



  You can see why we might be confused, though, considering you did bring your martial arts training into it.


----------



## Wayside (May 28, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> With respect, I don't think this is exactly accurate. You seem to be implying that Lucas was trying for a hard-science look at how lightsabers would really work in a fight, which would be pretty silly for him to do after five earlier movies in which they were pretty obviously treated as swords that glowed and were light enough to make the cool fast swings possible.



Nono, I'm implying that the whole style of lightsabers doesn't work to begin with, so why get antsy over Obi-Wan swinging at the same spot he just attacked while Anakin's guard is still there? (I assume that's one of the shots you took issue with, in the final Obi-wan/Vader battle, where Obi-wan swings, Anakin deflects, Obi-Wan swings at the exact same place again, Anakin doesn't even move his saber.) My point was only that this could be explained in any number of ways consistent with lightsaber fighting in general and/or use of the force in lightsaber fighting. Although, it's interesting, now that you mention the earlier films, that the Obi-wan/Vader fight in Ep IV, which was the first lightsaber battle we were treated to, is, if memory serves, actually the most realistic of them all.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 28, 2005)

Wayside said:
			
		

> Although, it's interesting, now that you mention the earlier films, that the Obi-wan/Vader fight in Ep IV, which was the first lightsaber battle we were treated to, is, if memory serves, actually the most realistic of them all.




And how many people have commented on how boring that scene now?


----------



## Wayside (May 28, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> i asked a question, that I still didnt get an answer to.
> 
> Before the prequels were released, did you really WANT (or even expect) Anakin to be a whiny brat as opposed to a cool bad guy? I still believe that the vast vast vast majority answers this question NO.
> 
> ...



You aren't going to like my answer, as it consists mostly of the fact that Anakin is only a whiny brat in your interpretation, and not in, say, mine. Anakin is actually cool and badass a number of times. You can generalize from the scenes where he _is_ rather immature, and inflate your generalization rhetorically, calling him a whiny brat, but that, of course, isn't the whole story. Just like based on the scenes where he is rather awesome I could generalize and say that Anakin, _in the entirety of his character_, is One Badass Dude. But again, that wouldn't be the whole story. Reducing the full complexity of a character to that sort of generalization strikes me as unfair. There's a lot going on with Anakin, part of which is that he is a badass, part of which is that he is immature and arrogant. Every character is a multiplicity of characters, in that sense. You can't really "get" the story without appreciating them all. So I don't think that you're wrong, only that your view is myopic.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (May 28, 2005)

The Serge said:
			
		

> We cannot and should not blame the actors [for the poor dialogue].




This quote is several pages back, but I saw it and wanted to say something.  I think Portman and Christensen are as much to blame for the terrible love scenes as Lucas.  Not that I'm say it was Christensen's or Portman's "fault," but their chemistry was absolutely nonexistent.  They always looked and felt awkward together.  McGregor and Christensen, that worked out well.  And both of them had some really stupid lines together (McGregor's "I thought we were smarter than this" comes to mind immediately).  And yet they still have chemistry.  There's communication beyond the words:  a gesture here, a facial expression there.  Hell, if you told me Anakin and _Obi-Wan_ were in love I'd be more willing to believe it, based on the actors' chemistry.

Take the balcony scene, for instance.  The writing is terrible.  I agree 100%.  But the pair really make us aware of that poor writing when they come together.  The line "Then love has blinded you?" could have been funny, a lover's joke kind of thing, had it been delivered differently.  But it came out like Portman was reading from a teleprompter.

It just doesn't make sense to me to "blame" the whole thing on Lucas.  There were hundreds of people involved in the making of this movie, and I believe the actors have a big responsibility to work with what they're given.  If you can't develop some kind of rapport with your fellow actors and their characters, than that is a big problem.


----------



## John Crichton (May 29, 2005)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> Yep, that's a big one, but I had to stop somewhere.    Almost every negative emotion you could imagine exuded in one mangled form. Hate, agony, rage, jealousy. And then Obi-Wan's heartbreak. One of the most pivotal scenes of the entire saga, and it was executed outstandingly. What an achievement.



Certainly.  I really didn't think that this movie (no matter how much I love Star Wars) would have been as moving as Return of the King was.  But it certainly left a mark.



			
				Kai Lord said:
			
		

> Then there's Anakin using the Vader choke trick for the first time *on his wife*.



I nearly forgot about that part.  It must have been overshadowed by what came afterwards.  



			
				Kai Lord said:
			
		

> Nute Gunray pleading for his life, utterly confused as to why he was about to be executed. No "ha ha, you've been tricked, your usefulness is over," just a merciless killer that shows up and slaughters his entire entourage and Gunray himself in one ruthless stroke. I actually felt half sorry for him.



Same.  Seeing the clueless pawn get slaughtered certainly was a nice stroke and helped what came after it hit home even more.



			
				Kai Lord said:
			
		

> And don't even get me started on Anakin tempting Padme to rule the galaxy together. Ah! What a great movie! I'm an excited nerdy kid all over again. I'm even thinking of what dorky Kenner toy I can get from the movie and display on my desk at work. Good times.



Yeah, it's moments like that, when they tie subtly back to the OT that really work.  All Anakin really wants is to be loved and have a partner.  He tried and failed with Padme and tried and finally succeeded in the bitter end with Luke.


----------



## John Crichton (May 29, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> And yet, if someone posted and said, "I thought this film was lame, and I'm ignoring all the posts by people who didn't think it was lame," I imagine that would result in some kind of negative feedback.
> 
> As someone who did think the film was lame, I'm even reading the posts that disagree with mine. I'm reading with a mixture of surprise, incredulity, and disappointment, but I'm reading nonetheless.



I have zero problem with folks posting their opinions, good or bad about it.  However, the posts that are bashing it I'm ignoring simply to milk the feeling of bliss that I feel towards the film as long as possible.  I did it with LotR, too.  Star Wars has always been one of the consistant pleasures in my life and I'll be damned if I let that get rained on.  I'll eventually want to debate merit, quality and such but I'm not ready yet.  The most I'm willing to do is debate plot points in the movie and if they are or aren't consistant with the OT.



			
				takyris said:
			
		

> Some wonderful moments, some excellent visuals, a good setup for Anakin's fall, and then a massively disappointingly thuddingly clunky script that provoked more unintentional laughs than tears in the theater when I saw it.
> 
> Nevertheless, all matters of enjoyment are inherently subjective. I'm glad the movie worked for most folks. I just wish I'd heard less glowing praise beforehand. I would have gone in without huge expectations and been much more satisfied overall.



The praise did nothing for me either way.  The great thing about art is that thoughts and opinions can change over time.  You may like it more upon a future viewing and my enthusiasm may be diminished (as it was for Episodes I & VI) over time.  The best part is that now everyone can view all six films as a whole.  There's no more guesswork.

Either way, I'm still riding the high and will continue to do so as long as possible.


----------



## John Crichton (May 29, 2005)

Welverin said:
			
		

> Slacker, I saw it twice on opening day, of course the second time was with family and seeing as how my brother came all the way from Vermont, how could I not?



Guilty as charged!

I'm so ashamed.  By this time, when I & II came out, I had already seen TPM 6-7 times and AotC about 4-5.  Maybe I'll go tomorrow.  That sounds like a plan...


----------



## Krug (May 30, 2005)

Has the top 10 day opening ever... shows that it has legs.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 30, 2005)

Krug said:
			
		

> Shows that it has legs.




Very true, and it does so by a pretty wide margin, but Titanic isn't even on that list.  (Which might be scarier)


----------



## Darth K'Trava (May 30, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Guilty as charged!
> 
> I'm so ashamed.  By this time, when I & II came out, I had already seen TPM 6-7 times and AotC about 4-5.  Maybe I'll go tomorrow.  That sounds like a plan...




Some friends I know were talking about seeing it tomorrow while all are off work.

If I go, it'd make my 3rd time seeing it!   

The most for any movie at a theater.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 30, 2005)

Krug said:
			
		

> Has the top 10 day opening ever... shows that it has legs.



 Its killing records pretty much every day. It'll be very interesting to see how this Memorial Day weekend ended up, with Madagascar and Longest Yard releasing. I've seen reports that Star Wars is still #1, but I'm more curious as to how close it is.


----------



## EricNoah (May 30, 2005)

On a second viewing, it doesn't quite hold up as well in my opinion.  Still a strong film, still the strongest of the prequels, but Anakin's fall feels much too "steep" this time.  So I would re-vote an 8 if I could.


----------



## LightPhoenix (May 30, 2005)

My feelings on the movie generally echo the camp of that it was an okay movie, but the directing sucked, the dialogue stunk, and that it probably would have been better if Lucas was just a writer, and not a director.

After each of the prequels I left with the feeling of wanting to see the original trilogy again.  With the first two, it was because I felt so underwhelmed, I wanted to get back some of that magic that was lost.  With RotS, I wanted to see the whole of 3-6 back to back, as a cohesive story.  It was a very refreshing feeling, despite my issues with the directing and dialogue.  I felt like there was a glimmer of magic afterward that just wasn't there after the first two.

I feel obliged at this point to discuss the movie by itself, though most of my thoughts are on the prequels as a whole.  As always, the worst parts of the movie were Hayden and Natalie.  Not because of the story, which I thought was acceptable... people do things for love that they wouldn't normally do otherwise.  Rather, I think they have absolutely zero chemistry together, and that in general their acting just stunk.  I don't blame either of them... I blame the director, since it's his job to set the tone and mood, and he needs to coax that in part out of the actors.  I also think that they were rather dwarfed by the rest of the cast, which I chalk up to their lack of experience acting relative to everyone else.

I loved the way the Jedi were portrayed... very far from the perfect ideal that they claimed to be.  It also set up the big rift between Anakin and the council, which ties back to Episode 1.  The padawan are presumably taken young, so young that they don't know real life, only the controlled faux-life the Jedi teach.  Anakin has already lived a good deal of life, and the seed of what can only be called humanity is already growing.  It's because of the council's denial of humanity that drives the rift between them, since Anakin rightly believes they won't understand his problems.  Ursula LeGuin raised a similar point in the opening chapters of _The Other Wind _(and the end of _Tehanu_).

I completely agree with everyone that says the passage of time was poorly handled.

After watching Episode 3, I came away with three general thoughts about the prequels in my head.  First, I felt that 1 and 2 made a lot more sense, and saw how they fit into the bigger picture much clearer, and I think that made the movies a little more enjoyable.  The Jedi could have saved his mother, but didn't; why would he expect anything more for Padme?  Similarly, his slaughter of the sandpeople echoed the slaughter of the Jedi - both groups effectively killed people he loved.  The Jedi twice so, once with his mother and presumably once with Padme.  He isn't driven by justice, he's driven by vengence and anger - literally the stuff of the dark side, as told by Yoda way back when.

Secondly, I really feel that the first two prequels could have and should have been condensed into a single movie.  TPM and AotC really seemed like the same movie to me, in that they tell Anakin's history, establish his character and set up RotS.  Except that they both felt like they were dragging, even during the action scenes.  RotS seemed a lot better paced to me, and while it wasn't perfect, I felt that it went by pretty well.

Thirdly, all three of the prequels felt very sanitized to me.  I think part of the charm of the original trilogy is that they feel very gritty, very real.  It doesn't feel like the focus of the movies is on the cinematography, on the flash and glitz.  Not everything is done perfectly so, and that gives it character.  A character which I feel the prequels lack.  That's really where I think Lucas went wrong.  Somewhere along the line I think he decided that it wasn't about the story, but about the digital revolution and CGI and fancy crap that doesn't mean a thing when the story isn't there.


----------



## Krug (May 30, 2005)

> it probably would have been better if Lucas was just a writer, and not a director.

With the sorta dialogue that he wrote for the romances, I don't really think so.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 30, 2005)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Thirdly, all three of the prequels felt very sanitized to me.  I think part of the charm of the original trilogy is that they feel very gritty, very real.  It doesn't feel like the focus of the movies is on the cinematography, on the flash and glitz.  Not everything is done perfectly so, and that gives it character.  A character which I feel the prequels lack.  That's really where I think Lucas went wrong.  Somewhere along the line I think he decided that it wasn't about the story, but about the digital revolution and CGI and fancy crap that doesn't mean a thing when the story isn't there.




Well, this has a perfectly sensible explanation. In the Prequels(at least I and II) we're seeing the galaxy in its Golden Age. It isn't the beat up, used galaxy of the Original Trilogy. of course, we DO start to see that in Sith, as the Clone Wars start to take their toll on aesthic designs when practical warships, etc are more necessary.


----------



## Arnwyn (May 30, 2005)

Saw it this weekend, and thought it was a decent movie - gave it a 7.

I am very _very_ glad I watched Episodes I and II, as well as both seasons of Clone Wars right before I went and saw Episode III. I don't think I would have enjoyed Episode III nearly as much if I hadn't seen Clone Wars right before.

Edit: Oh yeah - it was real nice getting to see the elderly (by Hollywood standards) Ian McDiarmid kicking ass. Great stuff!


----------



## Klaus (May 30, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> A Whole buncha stuff that I quoted.[/b]



 I got too bummed out by EpIII to write much, so I just quoted Takyris. But I'll write a bit more, and you can read Takyris' post in the previous page or so.

4.

The first time I cringed at this movie was when Count Dooku entered the room and, instead of walking down the stairs menacingly (which would be very much in character for Dooku and for Christopher Lee), he SOMERSAULTS down the balcony!

Talk about pointless use of CGI.

This happened a lot during the movie, with so many CGI stuff going on at the same time that the screen felt crowded and focus was lost. Like showing the cockpit of a tri-wing fighter and using CGI t show the faces of two clones. Yes, we know they're clones! You didn't have to stuff another face in there, ILM! Now it looks as though one clone is sitting on another's lap.

Anakin and Padmé were bad. Very bad. Cringe-inducing bad.

Anakin vs. Mace Windu: It would go well if Anakin delivered the killing blow and came to realize that the Jedi are indeed the evil ones. But then Palpatine goes "FENOMENAL COSMIC POWER!!!!". So much for playing the victim, Palpy!

Speaking of Palps, his transformation into Gollum was one of the worst effects of the movie! And afterwards his make-up didn't fit well. He looked like rubber, not like The Emperor from RotJ. Plus he gets fried by his lightning and his hair remains silky white? At least go bald, man! His voice was weird as well.

Anakin's slaying of younglings was rushed. If he truly thought that the Jedi were traitors, he could've taken the children under his wing and trained them to grow up and become the Emperor's Royal Guards. THAT would be a blow to the Jedi.

And the way Anakin lost his legs was so lame I couldn't believe my eyes! Since when did "high ground" matter to a Jedi? Obi-Wan was leaping farther than that in Episode I!

Anakin's voice was too high-note in his Mustafar lines. It would be a simple matter of Hayden Christensen doing a voice-over with a lower tone, possibly modulated to give it resonance (I've seen interviews of Hayden, and his voice is deeper than that).

And Padmé's death was badly done. No mother would give birth, SEE her children, NAME them, and THEN die. Either her mother insticts would've kicked in, and she would raise Leia (and then die of a broken heart in Alderaan), while Obi-Wan spirited Luke away and claimed he died during birth, or she'd die before seeing her children.

Finally, Vader's birth was a joke. It's ok for him to break off his manacles, but he then should've fallen to his knees, slowly and steadily rising to his full height, not that Frankenstein step. And his "NOOOOOO!" was a joke. It would make much more sense for the raging, passionate Sith to pound the floor with his fists (bending the metal underneath them) and let out an animalistic roar of rage, brimming with fury that couldn't be articulated. Instead, we get "NOOOOOO!".

To me it goes V>IV>VI>I>II>III


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 30, 2005)

arnwyn said:
			
		

> Edit: Oh yeah - it was real nice getting to see the elderly (by Hollywood standards) Ian McDiarmid kicking ass. Great stuff!




While I like the idea... his computer stand in looked horribly fake to me. If you're going for CGI elderly, Yoda's a lot older and a much neater fighter.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 30, 2005)

Klaus said:
			
		

> I got too bummed out by EpIII to write much, so I'll just quote Takyris.




I would rather you hadn't...  It seen as rather rude to quote so much in a single post and to add so little of your own words.


----------



## takyris (May 30, 2005)

I dunno. It looked pretty cool to *me*.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 30, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> I dunno. It looked pretty cool to *me*.



Though that doesn't really surprise me it still doesn't make it anymore needed.


----------



## warlord (May 31, 2005)

Greatest movie ever!!! Dark Anakin is my hero. Hayden Christianson now has acting ability. I'm naming my first son Anakin because of this movie.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 31, 2005)

After another viewing, I can safely clear up the Yoda calling Palpatine "Emperor" thing that a few people keep harping on as being a continuity error.

In the security recording, Palpatine tells Anakin to go and bring peace to the Empire. So, it can easily be assumed that Palpy is calling himself Emperor. That...and The Force, of course.


----------



## Wayside (May 31, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> After another viewing, I can safely clear up the Yoda calling Palpatine "Emperor" thing that a few people keep harping on as being a continuity error.
> 
> In the security recording, Palpatine tells Anakin to go and bring peace to the Empire. So, it can easily be assumed that Palpy is calling himself Emperor. That...and The Force, of course.



Hrmpf. Rebel scum...


----------



## Psychic Warrior (May 31, 2005)

I finally saw RotS yesterday at a matinee (which is how I am going to go see every movie from now on - small quiet crowd that was there to watch the freaking movie rather than yak with their neightbour).

I loved it.  Not as much as Empire or New Hope but easily on par with RotJ - maybe a little better.  I was nice to see a little bit of the 'magic' of Star Wars finally making it's way into the series again.

I was satisfied - even with all it's warts (much like the original trilogy) that RotS delivered.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 31, 2005)

Wayside said:
			
		

> Hrmpf. Rebel scum...




Yeah, I thought that had been covered and explained already also.


----------



## Kai Lord (May 31, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Certainly.  I really didn't think that this movie (no matter how much I love Star Wars) would have been as moving as Return of the King was.  But it certainly left a mark.



Oh I don't even see a need to compare ROTS to ROTK.  They both masterfully capped off the greatest two series in the history of film, and there's room enough in that top drawer for both of them.  ROTK will probably take the cake in the end, but SW has had such an impact on my life as a whole that to basically see my dream SW flick is a cinematic treat like no other.

And like you, I have no interest in reading other people slamming such a great experience.  Over a week later (I've only seen it once) and I'm *still* recalling new scenes that thrilled me.

Like Vader's entrance into Gunray's bunker being preceded by a whole pack of fleeing droids like the one Chewie spooked on the Death Star.  You just know that's not a good sign if you're in that bunker....


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 31, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Yeah, I thought that had been covered and explained already also.



 If had...but people keep bringing it up.

Oh, and another note for your, BS. Palpatine's face doesn't 'burn' evenly during the lightning sequence. Certain patches go first, with no real order to it.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 31, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Oh, and another note for your, BS. Palpatine's face doesn't 'burn' evenly during the lightning sequence. Certain patches go first, with no real order to it.




So, I wasn’t debating that, never even had it up for debate.  The scaring is still very much symmetrical, and too much so for random elasticity, and it also had no scorching which would have happened with elasticity. 

So I still think it was burning away the skin to revival the corruption that was beneath.


----------



## myrdden (May 31, 2005)

Saw it.  Thought it was good enough and entertained me for 2+ hours.  Sure there were lots of silly little things - but after Eps I and II, I was fully expecting them.

Definitley the prequals are inferior to the orginal movies, but at least ROTS ended on a more positive note (being a stronger movie than Eps I and II - not necessarily a happy ending...  ) in my opinion.  

Not sure if I'll see it in the theatre again though...


----------



## Knight Otu (May 31, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> If had...but people keep bringing it up.




And given that people kept bringing up things like 3PO's memories of Tatooine, which was effectively solved in A New Hope already...


----------



## Droogie (Jun 1, 2005)

Klaus said:
			
		

> The first time I cringed at this movie was when Count Dooku entered the room and, instead of walking down the stairs menacingly (which would be very much in character for Dooku and for Christopher Lee), he SOMERSAULTS down the balcony!
> 
> Talk about pointless use of CGI.




Considering he's a sith lord, I figure he could enter the room however he wants to. Personally, I find an old man entering the room in such a way rather intimidating. I thought it was cool. Some directors might have him walk down the stairs, others might have him flip off the walls with sparklers in his hands. GL made him flip down to the floor. Is it really that important?



> This happened a lot during the movie, with so many CGI stuff going on at the same time that the screen felt crowded and focus was lost. Like showing the cockpit of a tri-wing fighter and using CGI t show the faces of two clones. Yes, we know they're clones! You didn't have to stuff another face in there, ILM! Now it looks as though one clone is sitting on another's lap.




The original trilogy would have been just as fx-heavy if Lucas had the time, money, and technology back in 77. 



> Anakin and Padmé were bad. Very bad. Cringe-inducing bad.




Agreed. Wasn't as bad as the previous films tho, so it wasn't a deal-breaker for me.



> Anakin vs. Mace Windu: It would go well if Anakin delivered the killing blow and came to realize that the Jedi are indeed the evil ones. But then Palpatine goes "FENOMENAL COSMIC POWER!!!!". So much for playing the victim, Palpy!




There was a debate earlier in the thread (or was it another thread entirely?) that Palps was indeed doing just that: playing the victim. Nice move, I would say. At this point, I think Anakin was more interested in preserving Palpatine's knowledge  (the power to save Padme)  rather than who was more evil. 



> Speaking of Palps, his transformation into Gollum was one of the worst effects of the movie! And afterwards his make-up didn't fit well. He looked like rubber, not like The Emperor from RotJ. Plus he gets fried by his lightning and his hair remains silky white? At least go bald, man! His voice was weird as well.




I guess this kind of stuff doesn't bother me anymore. The fx and makeup seemed fine to me- I only notice it when fx are horrible. *shrug*.



> Anakin's slaying of younglings was rushed. If he truly thought that the Jedi were traitors, he could've taken the children under his wing and trained them to grow up and become the Emperor's Royal Guards. THAT would be a blow to the Jedi.




This is one of my few gripes with the movie. Even though it was a long time coming, his final flip to the darkside was a bit abrupt. But as for sparing the children to be raised as guards or sith trainees or whatever, I figure the Emperor would have been annoyed. "What is this? I told you to not hesitate and to show no mercy. Kill them." Then again, I didn't help write the script. None of us did.



> And the way Anakin lost his legs was so lame I couldn't believe my eyes! Since when did "high ground" matter to a Jedi? Obi-Wan was leaping farther than that in Episode I!




Hmm. I suppose your right. But even though Jedi are quite skilled, they aren't infallible. They make mistakes, especially if they lack the experience of a Jedi Master. I think that was one of the points of that scene, even if it wasn't executed the way a more experienced director would have done it. At any rate, I like the scene; its one of the many scenes that I can't seem to get out of my head.



> Anakin's voice was too high-note in his Mustafar lines. It would be a simple matter of Hayden Christensen doing a voice-over with a lower tone, possibly modulated to give it resonance (I've seen interviews of Hayden, and his voice is deeper than that).




Meh.  Voice sounded as low as a squeaky young man could go. If he went too low, it would almost sound like parody. I got the impression that Vaders menacing voice is mostly generated by his mask.



> And Padmé's death was badly done. No mother would give birth, SEE her children, NAME them, and THEN die. Either her mother insticts would've kicked in, and she would raise Leia (and then die of a broken heart in Alderaan), while Obi-Wan spirited Luke away and claimed he died during birth, or she'd die before seeing her children.




Agreed, i suppose. Many people have issues with this scene because it doesn't jive with the scene with Luke and Leia in RotJ. It would have been nice if she had lived for a little while,  went to live on Alderan, then maybe the TV series could have shown her ultimate fate. However, if she had turned up alive later, it would expose Palps false assertion of her death and would undermine his control over Vader. Also, If she had lived a bit longer, the twins existance may have been discovered by Vader, who doesn't seem to know of them until later in the series. That might have caused bigger continuity problems than we have now. Anyway, GL decided to off her at the end if Ep III, so there isn't much we can do about it now, unless he decides to fiddle with the scene in the DVD release.   



> Finally, Vader's birth was a joke. It's ok for him to break off his manacles, but he then should've fallen to his knees, slowly and steadily rising to his full height, not that Frankenstein step. And his "NOOOOOO!" was a joke. It would make much more sense for the raging, passionate Sith to pound the floor with his fists (bending the metal underneath them) and let out an animalistic roar of rage, brimming with fury that couldn't be articulated. Instead, we get "NOOOOOO!".




I liked the "NOOO". Totally worked for me. And if I had brand new cybernetic legs, It would take me a few moments to get used to them as well. I think pounding the floor into scrap would be a bit over-the-top; he's Darth Vader, not The Hulk. But like I said, we didn't make the film. Maybe we ENworlders should make our own Star Wars flik? What say you guys?



> To me it goes V>IV>VI>I>II>III




Mine: V, IV, III, VI, II, I.


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## John Crichton (Jun 1, 2005)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> Oh I don't even see a need to compare ROTS to ROTK. They both masterfully capped off the greatest two series in the history of film, and there's room enough in that top drawer for both of them. ROTK will probably take the cake in the end, but SW has had such an impact on my life as a whole that to basically see my dream SW flick is a cinematic treat like no other.



Too true.  The wacky thing about RotK was that I did the Trilogy-in-Day thing for it.  It was my first viewing of the film and it really felt like I went to war with the Fellowship by the end of it.  I was spent.  I had the same feeling at the end of this movie, which I really didn't see coming.  I can only imagine watching all six consecutively.  And I can't wait.  



			
				Kai Lord said:
			
		

> And like you, I have no interest in reading other people slamming such a great experience. Over a week later (I've only seen it once) and I'm *still* recalling new scenes that thrilled me.
> 
> Like Vader's entrance into Gunray's bunker being preceded by a whole pack of fleeing droids like the one Chewie spooked on the Death Star. You just know that's not a good sign if you're in that bunker....



It's the little things that make all the difference.  For all the dialogue blunders in Star Wars, Lucas has made up with it in the details.  Where the devil is and all that...


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## Mark Chance (Jun 1, 2005)

I can bring myself to rate RoTS as average. To beat the dead horses:

* Lousy dialogue, especially between Anakin and Padme. Not to mention the "Noooooo!" from Vader upon learning about Padme's death. I had to concentrate on not laughing.

* Too much reliance on CGI effects, some of them distractingly obvious. "Hey, look, Obi's surrounded by CGI people...again."

* Fight scenes repetitive with too much tight focus on the action. "Oh, look, Anakin's blocking blaster shots...again. Oh, look, a CGI doing a somersault...again. Oh, look, lots of glowing sticks being waved around...again." Often looked less like a fight than a dance at a rave.

* "She's lost the will to live." Yeah. Right. I guess that's one way to handle an otherwise inexplicable death scene.

* Yoda's quitter routine. "Well, I failed to defeat the bad guy. I guess I'll run off into exile."

* Younglings? Younglings? Who wrote this drek? Oh, yeah, that's right. The same guy that had Jar-Jar speaking Spanish in Episode II.

Et cetera.

I watch a lot of movies every month, whether in the theater or on DVD. RoTS isn't getting any repeat business from me.


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## Kai Lord (Jun 1, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Too true.  The wacky thing about RotK was that I did the Trilogy-in-Day thing for it.  It was my first viewing of the film and it really felt like I went to war with the Fellowship by the end of it.  I was spent.



That must have been pretty cool.  A couple of huge bonuses for me in seeing ROTS were that it was the first new SW film I've seen since being married and it was the first since ESB that I got to see spoiler free.

I casually perused Star Wars newsgroups before TPM and AOTC and both times happened upon threads where the title stated things along the lines of "Obi-Wan kills Darth Maul after Qui-Gonn dies!!111!!" and "Mace Windu kills Jango!11!!!!!"  Pretty annoying to say the least.  But before ROTS I went on an almost total internet lockdown and got to be surprised all throughout the movie.  It was awesome not knowing how Count Dooku, General Grievous, Nute Gunray, Mace Windu, or even Jar Jar ended up.

And then sitting there the whole time, remembering being three years old and watching the first SW with my parents and now being 30 and watching the final chapter with my wife.  What an amazing cinematic journey.  It must have been even more amazing for those fans who were watching it with their kids.

There are things in ROTS that could have been better, a couple CGI clonetrooper shots that were a little too obvious, a rewriting of the "beauty is blind" exchange or however it went, but those are tiny things in the grand scope of the film.  Heck I was a little distracted by some cheezy lines in ROTK that seem lifted from Star Wars, "Is Frodo alive," "What does your heart tell you?" and "I've got to save you," "You already did."  But I sure didn't let those small things affect one of the greatest films of all time (possibly my absolute favorite, I'll have to let you know when the "Sith buzz" subsides, assuming it does... )


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## fett527 (Jun 1, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> On a second viewing, it doesn't quite hold up as well in my opinion.  Still a strong film, still the strongest of the prequels, but Anakin's fall feels much too "steep" this time.  So I would re-vote an 8 if I could.




I saw it for the second time on Monday and I would bump up my previous rating to 9.  I enjoyed it even more the second time.  I thought Hayden and Natalie's acting was better than ever- I tried to pay particular attention this time around.  Also, the Vader "NOOOOOOO!!" scene was a little better, but still bothers me.  At least Palpy's evil grin at Vader's reaction made the scene better.  I didn't focus on that the first time.

At this point my favorite scene is probably Vader's massacre of the Separatist leaders.  _Chills._


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## Warrior Poet (Jun 1, 2005)

7

I was gonna vote 6, but decided that the fun nostalgia factor was enough for 6.5 and I rounded up, even though D&D doesn't, thus shaking mathematics to its foundations.  Well, maybe not.

Overall, not too bad a film, definitely better than I and II, and a fine way to end the whole series, as far as I'm concerned.

One of the things I liked overall was the nods to the earlier (that is to say, later,  ?) films.  I liked seeing how the ships were going to evolve, I liked the corridor of the corvette/blockade runner that was Organa's ship.  I liked seeing a young Tarkin, I liked seeing the gantry that became so famous later.  I liked the red imperial guard armor (actually, my favorite part of the movie is Yoda walking into Palpatine's chamber.  I always thought the imperial guard looked so cool, even though I never saw them do anything, and I loved that it takes 1 second to show how much more significant Yoda is.  Nice job, George!  THAT'S what we mean when we say, "Show, don't tell").  

Nice to see Chewbacca (who did, basically, nothing as far as I can tell.  Did I miss something?  Sure, there was some Kashyyk battle shown, but I didn't recognize Chewy until the specific Yoda comment.  I understand the wookies got cut for length of film, but why are the wookies always gettin' dumped on?  Here's an 8 ft. sentient kodiak with opposable thumbs, intricate mechanical knowledge, and precision shooting ability, and Han orders him around like a step'n'fetchit, chiding him for pulling this apart now when they're trying to get out of here?  Blood stripes?  You wanna see blood stripes, little man?  And stuck putting 3PO back together, who later shouts at him to finish when there are clearly more important things to do?  Why does Chewy get all the abuse?  The more I think about it, why haven't the wookies taken over the galaxy?)

But I digress.

I liked the lightsaber fights for the most part (including the Grievous lightsaber pinwheel, and how cool about it Obi-Wan was, when all I could think was, "Now, how the hell is he gonna get around that?").  I liked Palpatine throwing balcony box seats at Yoda -- very evil, and I liked Yoda handling it, very calm, and sad.

I thought the hardest part was Yoda, actually, and it made me sad to see him sad, like everything he knew and thought and was wise about was crumbling around him despite his wisdom.  It was especially poignant when he could sense the other jedi dying.  A nice touch, and made me love the little green guy even more.  Can't be easy to live 900 years.  See a lot of good, but a lot of pain, too.

There was some bad acting, but then there always is.  However, my biggest peeve is Vader's cry.  There was so much great stuff leading up to that, like the lowering of the mask, and Anakin's terrified expression, and the oh-so-brief glimpse of how Vader sees through that mask, and then that first iconic breath.  I really thought the telekinetic rage was awesome, and I wished it had finished with that.  Just silence, crushed steel, and the dark figure standing still in his hate.  I liked that he stumbled, getting used to his new body, but the yell seemed undignified for a Sith lord (I know, he wasn't a Sith lord yet).

My all time favorite Vader moment in all the movies isn't his revelation to Luke, or his lightsaber fights, or his breathing, or the remote-controlled asphyxiation.  It's a tiny, miniscule moment in _Empire_.  The empire has captured Echo Base, and are invading.  The door to the control room blows open, and in rush two stormtroopers, followed immediately by the Dark Lord of the Sith ahead of all the other troops.  At the front lines, Vader is RIGHT THERE.  The generals aren't, and I didn't even see any other officers.  The reason Vader isn't first through the door is he isn't running like the stormtroopers, and that's because Darth Vader doesn't run for anybody.  That moment solidified, for me, Darth Vader as the baddest bad man in the galaxy.  I know he hadn't evolved to that point in Ep. III yet, but the cry of "NOOOOO!" just felt silly to me.

Wow.  How did this turn into a rant?  Uh, so, uh, anyway, a 7.

Warrior Poet


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## Vocenoctum (Jun 1, 2005)

Mark Chance said:
			
		

> * Yoda's quitter routine. "Well, I failed to defeat the bad guy. I guess I'll run off into exile."




Obviously one of the spoilers you couldn't avoid, was that Yoda and Palpatine both survived. Seeing Yoda in the commercials hanging from the edge, may have actually lowered the movie in my view before seeing it, since you know he doesn't die.

So, the entire thing with Yoda and ObiWan returning to the Jedi temple, then Yoda heading off to confront Palpatine, it just lacked for me. Yoda goes there to Melee with the Sith Lord, and then retreats suddenly, when there didn't really seem any obvious reason for him to.

I enjoyed Yoda taking out the two guards, probably the moment I enjoyed most in the movie. The rest of the battle was badly written IMO, and the fight looked very fake to me.

I'd have prefered no Jedi Homing Beacon.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Jun 2, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> So, the entire thing with Yoda and ObiWan returning to the Jedi temple, then Yoda heading off to confront Palpatine, it just lacked for me. Yoda goes there to Melee with the Sith Lord, and then retreats suddenly, when there didn't really seem any obvious reason for him to.



Exhaustion?  That's how I read it.  He didn't have it in him to keep up the battle.  He's 800 years old, after all.



> I'd have prefered no Jedi Homing Beacon.



Curiousity: what about it bothered you?


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## David Howery (Jun 3, 2005)

finally saw it tonite.  I regard it the same as the other prequels... middle of the pack... not great, not awful... give it 5.5....

BTW, did any of you notice the Millenium Falcon in one of the dock scenes?


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## Mark Chance (Jun 3, 2005)

Canis said:
			
		

> Exhaustion?




Then go home and take a nap, not flee into hiding for the next couple of decades while the Emperor and his minions run roughshod across the galaxy, killing people by the bajillion.

The SW movies are, by and large, horribly written and poorly plotted, especially Episodes I through III. For example: How many years did Lucas have to come up with how Anakin is defeated yet not killed by Obi? And the best he can come up with is Anakin's legs getting sliced off because Obi had "the high ground"?

Examples could be nigh endlessly multiplied.


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## Villano (Jun 3, 2005)

Mark Chance said:
			
		

> And the best he can come up with is Anakin's legs getting sliced off because Obi had "the high ground"?




I don't mind the fact that he jumped over Obi-Wan's head and got cut.  What I hate is that they had to bring the movie to a screeching halt in order to _explain_ what was about to happen.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 3, 2005)

Going to see it again tonight.  Can't wait!  GL must have more of my money!  HE MUST!

As for the high ground, I think it was more a matter of Anakin having no where else to go but straight at Obi-Wan which give Obi the decisive advantage since he was in prime position to do what he did and it would be tough for Anakin to avoid.  But Anakin's arrogance was too much and he lept to his doom.  I didn't have any problems with that scene myself.


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## Gentlegamer (Jun 3, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Going to see it again tonight.  Can't wait!  GL must have more of my money!  HE MUST!
> 
> As for the high ground, I think it was more a matter of Anakin having no where else to go but straight at Obi-Wan which give Obi the decisive advantage since he was in prime position to do what he did and it would be tough for Anakin to avoid.  But Anakin's arrogance was too much and he lept to his doom.  I didn't have any problems with that scene myself.



Didn't Darth Maul have the high ground over Obi-Wan in TPM?


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## mojo1701 (Jun 3, 2005)

Gentlegamer said:
			
		

> Didn't Darth Maul have the high ground over Obi-Wan in TPM?




Yeah, but Maul didn't see it coming.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 3, 2005)

Gentlegamer said:
			
		

> Didn't Darth Maul have the high ground over Obi-Wan in TPM?




Yep.  But unlike Obi-Wan, Maul pretty relaxed and said to himself, "I win, now I'll torment this jerk and wallow in my victory over the hated Jedi".  Where as I think Obi-Wan, who was on the giving end of that chopping, knew to keep his guard up and be prepared for Anakin lest he suffer Maul's fate.  Obi-Wan learned his lession on Naboo, don't assume the fight is over.


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## mmu1 (Jun 3, 2005)

I'm just grateful it's finally over. No more hoping for the best even though I should know better. 

It wasn't a horrible movie - all things considered (given that it's an action movie) I'd even rate it as a bit above average... However, I'm not about to give it a free pass just because it's Star Wars - and Episode III, like the prequels, actually detract from Star Wars as a whole. 

I never wanted to know that the Clone Wars were a tedious political squabble, that the embodiment of evil that was the Emperor used to be a _politician_ who got the senate to vote him in as a dictator, that Darth Vader used to be an annoying kid, or that Yoda inexplicably quit in the middle of the most important fight of his life and fled into exile. 

All these things _used to_ have mystique - now they've been rendered boring and mundane.

The Clone Wars are a joke - CGI robots and stormtroopers shooting at each other in scenes that look like something straight out of a _bad_ RTS game - because Starcraft units, for example, used to have more personality. Not to mention the absurd idea that the _Republic_, with the blessing of the Jedi Order, apparently had no problems with sending a slave army of expendable clones into battle. Or that a single planet - so marginal that hardly anyone even heard it existed - was capable of producing an army large enough to fight a war on behalf of a republic that spanned thousands of worlds. Or... Well it's easy to get off on a tangent here.

Bottom line is, I learned virtually nothing about these characters and events that I wanted to, and a whole lot that I didn't, and I'd have been much happier if _these_ prequels had never been made.


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## mmu1 (Jun 3, 2005)

Gentlegamer said:
			
		

> Didn't Darth Maul have the high ground over Obi-Wan in TPM?




Yes, but Maul stepped into a plothole and twisted his ankle.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 3, 2005)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> I never wanted to know that the Clone Wars were a tedious political squabble, that the embodiment of evil that was the Emperor used to be a _politician_ who got the senate to vote him in as a dictator, that Darth Vader used to be an annoying kid, or that Yoda inexplicably quit in the middle of the most important fight of his life and fled into exile.




I loved that part of the prequals.  The story of how a Republic embraces tyranny out of fear of a threat fabricated to accomplish just that.  I thought it was an excellent plot by GL in that regard.


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## mmu1 (Jun 3, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I loved that part of the prequals.  The story of how a Republic embraces tyranny out of fear of a threat fabricated to accomplish just that.  I thought it was an excellent plot by GL in that regard.




It'd have been an ok plot in and of itself, but it was horribly executed (George needs to tell us in the opening scroll in Episode III that there' are  "heroes on both sides" - his ability to _show_ it is nonexistent) and a completely unfitting beginning to what is basically a fantasy epic of Good vs. Evil... 

Not really surprising, given that the man actually has one of his *Jedi* characters say something like "Only the Sith deal in absolutes" at a climactic moment (I guess Yoda is just a crusty old conservative with all that "Do or do not, there is no try!" stuff...), but it's jarring and out of place.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 3, 2005)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> Not really surprising, given that the man has one of his Jedi characters say "Only the Sith deal in absolutes" at a climactic moment (I guess Yoda is just a crusty old conservative with all that "Do or do not, there is no try!" stuff...), but it's jarring and out of place.




I didn't see it out of place.  I thought it fit the mood and the story.  Love the story of the Republic falling, I thought it could use more screen time but since you have to make a movie to the lowest common denominator that its something you see in the book more than on screen.


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## Klaus (Jun 3, 2005)

On the "heroes on both sides" thing:

How can there be heroes if the separatists' army is made up by driods?


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 3, 2005)

Klaus said:
			
		

> On the "heroes on both sides" thing:




I think it was more of what is to come but a number of senators where already trying to rein in Palpatine’s powers by then, the same ones that would lead the rebellion.  I think it’s meant for them.


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## mojo1701 (Jun 3, 2005)

Klaus said:
			
		

> On the "heroes on both sides" thing:
> 
> How can there be heroes if the separatists' army is made up by driods?




Some of them randomly installed 'Hero v1.1' on themselves.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Jun 3, 2005)

Mark Chance said:
			
		

> Then go home and take a nap, not flee into hiding for the next couple of decades while the Emperor and his minions run roughshod across the galaxy, killing people by the bajillion.



Well, if I just fought to exhaustion, and the guy I fought wasn't breathing that hard, I'd be unlikely to take him on again.  That's the message I took out of the theater, and when I went on to read the novel it's spelled out that Yoda realized he couldn't take him fairly early in the fight.  It looked to me like Yoda had the choice between dying a futile death or going into exile where he might be able to train up some kids who would have a real chance.  Seems like a no-brainer to me.

I suppose Lucas could have put in the line, "Too powerful he was.  To defeat him we must find another."  Or something to that effect.  Of course then the "Show, don't tell!" people would have more fuel for their fire.

Personally, I find it sort of bleakly amusing that people complain when he tells something he could have shown, but also get all bent out of shape about plot points that require a little interpretation from the audience.


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## Warrior Poet (Jun 3, 2005)

Canis said:
			
		

> Personally, I find it sort of bleakly amusing that people complain when he tells something he could have shown, but also get all bent out of shape about plot points that require a little interpretation from the audience.



To be fair, some of the moments that demand a kind of interpretation, and about which people may be clamoring, may be moments where Lucas isn't doing a very good job of showing, even if he isn't telling.

Warrior Poet


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## mmu1 (Jun 3, 2005)

Warrior Poet said:
			
		

> To be fair, some of the moments that demand a kind of interpretation, and about which people may be clamoring, may be moments where Lucas isn't doing a very good job of showing, even if he isn't telling.
> 
> Warrior Poet




Exactly. When Yoda drops to the floor of the senate chamber, Palpatine is holding on to the edge of one of the pods and flopping about like a fish, and frankly, it look more like Yoda falls because his stubby little hands can't get a good grip on a smooth metal surface rather than because he's beaten or exhausted. He looks a lot more tired at the end of the fight with with Dooku in _Clones_.

Just because Lucas _didn't_ include a line in which Yoda said "Defeat him I can not." doesn't mean he was showing us anything - in fact, he felt the need very soon afterwards to rely on Yoda explaining to Organa how he lost and must go into exile...

You could convey the same information (and get in a nod to the fans) by showing Yoda nursing a wound and looking at a holo-projection of Dagobah, as senator Organa hurries back from trying to contact other "rebels" to see how his confrontation with the Emperor turned out, and is shocked to find out Yoda has lost and is giving up the fight.


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## takyris (Jun 3, 2005)

Warrior Poet said:
			
		

> To be fair, some of the moments that demand a kind of interpretation, and about which people may be clamoring, may be moments where Lucas isn't doing a very good job of showing, even if he isn't telling.




Respectfully ditto'd. Failing to tell does not automatically equate doing a wonderful job of showing. And "demands interpretation" is a phrase better applied to subtle, nuanced art-flicks -- a standard by which Episode 3 does not fare particularly well.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Jun 3, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> Respectfully ditto'd. Failing to tell does not automatically equate doing a wonderful job of showing. And "demands interpretation" is a phrase better applied to subtle, nuanced art-flicks -- a standard by which Episode 3 does not fare particularly well.



It's not trying very hard to do so  but your point is taken.

I'm sort of surprised that I've turned into the Lucas-defense squad.  I've actually got extensive thoughts on how I would do a total rewrite of I and II (despite enjoying them for the most part).  But it sometimes seems like the man can NOT get a break anymore.  He had the audacity to not live up to impossible expectations, and so people who used to praise him as the God of Cinema insist on picking him apart at every opportunity.

It strikes me as somewhat unfair.  When _the Godfather, part III_ sucked flying monkey poo compared to the first two, people didn't accuse Coppola of metaphoric rape and tear into his films, his hairstyle, and his personal habits.  I'm not sure what Lucas did to earn such ire.

EDIT: Not that I'm accusing anyone specifically here of such ire.  The internet in general, however, has a notable odor of bile lately.


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## mmu1 (Jun 3, 2005)

Canis said:
			
		

> It's not trying very hard to do so  but your point is taken.
> 
> I'm sort of surprised that I've turned into the Lucas-defense squad.  I've actually got extensive thoughts on how I would do a total rewrite of I and II (despite enjoying them for the most part).  But it sometimes seems like the man can NOT get a break anymore.  He had the audacity to not live up to impossible expectations, and so people who used to praise him as the God of Cinema insist on picking him apart at every opportunity.
> 
> ...




Of course, Coppola hadn't had more than 20 years and unlimited financial resources to get Godfather III right... And hadn't gone on record to basically say he didn't care at all if his latest movie made the hordes of his old fans happy. (As is Lucas' right, but it still makes him an .)  And his best movie ever wasn't in fact directed by someone else... And he hadn't tinkered with Godfather I and II and made them worse...


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## takyris (Jun 3, 2005)

Canis said:
			
		

> It's not trying very hard to do so  but your point is taken.




I agree. But that agreement is why I think "You just aren't thinking hard enough and trying to interpret the movie, which is deep in this one particular part" doesn't fly as a defense. Saying that I'm supposed to think deeply about parts of the movie and completely ignore other parts for not making sense does not make sense to me -- and that's what I'm getting, although I'm not positive that I'm getting it from multiple posters. (That is to say, I'm not saying that someone here is trying to play it both ways. I'm saying that some people are saying "Lighten up, it's a popcorn flick", but then I criticize it based on a popcorn flick, and other people say, "You need to think more carefully, it all makes sense with careful thought," and so forth.)

That's possibly what all my issues with Episode 3 come down to: the idea (not fact, since this is purely my opinion) that Lucas never (to me) got a handle on what kind of movie he wanted to make, and so there are some parts that only work well if you think really hard about them and other parts that only work well if you kind of glaze over and go with the flow of silly action. It's a popcorn serial merged with a political drama merged with a Shakespearian tragedy, and those are three totally respectable dramatic forms, but for my money as a consumer, if you decide to multiple genres, you have to make every part of the movie work at least minimally on the level of every genre you've decided to use. You don't need the world's best political maneuvering during your action parts, but it needs to not fall apart totally for the people who were watching for the politics. Lucas tried to play it too many ways, and so while it's unfair of me to criticize a popcorn action flick for not having the best dialogue, it's unfair of Lucas to make a movie that can't be appreciated as an action flick because of the bland middle parts, can't be appreciated as a tragedy because there was more time spent with twirly lightsabers than with real, in-this-movie motivations that make Anakin's fall not just plausible but inevitable, or as a political drama because so much of the plot relies on the stupid-character device, which is fine in an action flick, expected in a tragedy where someone is undone by a character flaw, but hard to sell without really good writing in a political drama.

There are parts of Episode 3 that are really good as action. There are parts that are really good as tragedy. There are parts that are really good as political drama. No argument there -- and I'm apparently a much harsher judge than many, because that's why I gave it the 4 -- there are movies that don't get the 4 from me. But a movie that only works when the audience switches their suspension-of-disbelief gears to a different setting at different points in the movie is ultimately going to disappoint a lot of people.

It's certainly not disappointing everyone. I'm not sure how it's numbers would be if it weren't a Star Wars movie, but I'm sure it'd still be respectable. But I think that Lucas is making his fans do a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of appreciating this movie.



> I'm sort of surprised that I've turned into the Lucas-defense squad.  I've actually got extensive thoughts on how I would do a total rewrite of I and II (despite enjoying them for the most part).  But it sometimes seems like the man can NOT get a break anymore.  He had the audacity to not live up to impossible expectations, and so people who used to praise him as the God of Cinema insist on picking him apart at every opportunity.




This goes to the beginning of my post. I didn't consider my expectations impossible. Maybe it was his attempt to make everyone happy, despite what he was saying, that made him make three disjointed movies instead of one cohesive one.

I can appreciate action flicks. I like action flicks (although oddly, I'm lately in the PG-13 set -- I'm into cinematic fight scenes, but not graphic arterial spray). I loved *The Rundown* and I loved *Pirates of the Carribean*, primarily because neither movie forgot what it was supposed to be. Both movies had their direction firmly on message -- swashbuckling for Johnny Depp, action-comedy buddy flick for the Rock and Stiffler. Once I realized what kind of movie I was watching in each case, I sat back and enjoyed the experience. I came away happy.

And yeah, neither of those movies has the sheer weight of decades of history and storytelling behind it, but maybe that just means that those movies are arguments in favor of succeeding at a modest goal rather than failing in an attempt at something glorious. Because for me, the guy who likes lightsabers a bunch and loves watching people flip through the air with glowing swords, the silly movie with the Rock popping gun-clips while surrounded by people shooting at him was a better and more entertaining experience for me than the culmination of Lucas's storytelling efforts.



> It strikes me as somewhat unfair.  When _the Godfather, part III_ sucked flying monkey poo compared to the first two, people didn't accuse Coppola of metaphoric rape and tear into his films, his hairstyle, and his personal habits.  I'm not sure what Lucas did to earn such ire.
> 
> EDIT: Not that I'm accusing anyone specifically here of such ire.  The internet in general, however, has a notable odor of bile lately.




Fair enough. I'd say that Lucas reached for the brass ring and, in the minds of many people online, the people likely to share their opinions with others in settings like these, he missed. He still appears to have satisfied the vast majority, based on the ratings here and elsewhere, but it doesn't look like he made anything that's going to stand the test of time.

Doesn't mean that reaching for the brass ring is always bad, or that he's a bad person for trying. All he's done to bug me is get sloppy on his writing, which I can unfairly ascribe to him spending too much time working on spiffy digital effects instead of writing out a spiffy working plot. He's hardly insulted my children or spit on my dreams.

If I stay in these discussions, it's because I honestly want to see how uncritical people are -- not as an insult to them, but in terms of what the average not-looking-at-it-as-a-writer person thinks. I also harbor an intense dislike for _The Da Vinci Code_, and last I checked, that thing's been on the bestseller list for like three years. I think I've figured out what makes it so popular, although by no means well enough to duplicate it.

I'm not so sure on Ep3. Right now, it seems like it's enough of a Rorshach that the people who aren't looking at it critically can make it into whatever kind of movie they want and interpolate lots of deep parts or mentally skip the fight scenes or whatever. Or it's simply the familiarity of the universe, which makes people willing to overlook continuity problems that would scuttle an original SF movie.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jun 3, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> It's certainly not disappointing everyone. I'm not sure how it's numbers would be if it weren't a Star Wars movie, but I'm sure it'd still be respectable. But I think that Lucas is making his fans do a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of appreciating this movie.




I think that Lucas has pleased his fans just fine. Hence why people are continuing to go see it. Not only that, but the places you FIND the fans on Star Wars websites here on the internet are praising the movie. Look here on ENWorld and you'll even find an extremely positive view of the movie despite all this 'heavy lifting' you're saying is required.

Star Wars fans are, as a whole, loving Sith.



> I'm not so sure on Ep3. Right now, it seems like it's enough of a Rorshach that the people who aren't looking at it critically can make it into whatever kind of movie they want and interpolate lots of deep parts or mentally skip the fight scenes or whatever. Or it's simply the familiarity of the universe, which makes people willing to overlook continuity problems that would scuttle an original SF movie.




Familiarity doesn't mean these 'contiunity problems' are overlooked at all. In fact, being extremely familiar with the universe, myself, I find that there are NO continuity problems at all...be they in the movie itself, or even when looked at all 6 together. ALL of the pieces are put together, even if not all of them are blantly stated.

Its funny, I saw the movie with my dad on Monday. He's not a huge Star Wars fans but enjoys movies enough and did want to see it. He hadn't seen AotC, and watched it the day before. He thought it was a great movie, and really enjoyed that. And then, coming out of Sith, he said something to me that I couldn't help but laugh about.

"I loved it...but they tied everything up too neatly."

That still makes me grin.


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## takyris (Jun 3, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> I think that Lucas has pleased his fans just fine.




Right. Like I said. You're implying that I don't think he pleased his fans. I believe we've been over the ratings here and on IMDB and come to the conclusion that people are liking it.

Hence the number of times I wrote "in my opinion" or "for me".

I had problems with the movie. Other people here also had problems with the movie. Thus, while the movie might make a truckload of money, it did not please all its fans. And if you go back through the 10 pages of posts, you'll find several people who (as I mentioned earlier) posted fairly critical reviews and then gave it a 7 because Yoda looked cool taking down the stormtroopers, so if you want to compare this movie to, say, a non-Star Wars movie, figure that it's getting about half a star for free on a five-point scale simply because it's got the familiar iconography of a Star Wars movie.

If Lucas pleased his fans just fine, then evidently all the bloggers I've run into with "Why this movie disappointed me" posts were not his fans. Or perhaps, just perhaps, the situation is more nuanced than the fact that your dad liked it just fine might imply.

I can play anecdotal evidence all day. I've got disappointed buddies lined up around the block. Unfortunately, some of their often hilarious critiques include language that Grandma wouldn't like, so they remain unlinked -- but they're still just anecdotal evidence, no more or less valid than your dad. In the end, the box office receipts will be wonderful, the critics' reviews will continue to be mixed, and the internet will foam with a mixture of people who politely question the rationality of the folks whose opinions are different from theirs. And life will go on.

It's more of a success than I'd like, since I'd like for Hollywood to clearly hear that making an FX-heavy movie is not an excuse for bad writing. It's less of a success than Brother Shatterstone would like, because there are a number of people on this board and elsewhere who had issues with the movie, and it's never fun when other people vocally dislike a movie that was so moving and close to your heart and such a big hit for you. (That's not a slam on you, Brother Shatterstone -- I'd be posting stuff a lot like you are posting if someone didn't like a movie I'd really loved and that worked for me on almost every level.) 

I was trying to give a different angle of explanation for why the movie didn't work for me, Ankh. I even wrote "for me" several times. Telling me that I'm wrong for trying to examine the reasons that the movie didn't work *for me*, or for the fans who have posted the hilarious and expletive-filled critiques, is not going to change my mind.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 3, 2005)

Way off topic but I wanted to say something to takyris...  You must have the most words per a post in the history of ENworld.    (Which is cool. IMHO)


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## David Howery (Jun 3, 2005)

one thing that wasn't very clear:  when the clone troopers turned Sen. Organa away from the Jedi Temple, were they planning on shooting him in the back, or were they really going to let him go?  It looked like they were thinking about shooting him anyway.  And just who was the little jedi that popped out of nowhere to attack those troopers.. was he saving Organa or just attacking the troopers?


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jun 3, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> R In the end, the box office receipts will be wonderful, the critics' reviews will continue to be mixed, and the internet will foam with a mixture of people who politely question the rationality of the folks whose opinions are different from theirs. And life will go on.




Funnily enough, critics' reviews of Sith have been surprisingly positive overall. But your point still stands...other than the fact that life will not, in fact, go on. 



> Telling me that I'm wrong for trying to examine the reasons that the movie didn't work *for me*, or for the fans who have posted the hilarious and expletive-filled critiques, is not going to change my mind.





Since I know you're not new to the internet, I can only say one thing.

Yes it can and will change your mind because you're obviously wrong. Why? Because I'm right!


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## takyris (Jun 3, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Since I know you're not new to the internet, I can only say one thing.
> 
> Yes it can and will change your mind because you're obviously wrong. Why? Because I'm right!




Dangit! I... must... counter.... GNARRRGH!


*Ankh-Morpork Guard is right. I used to believe otherwise. Now I follow Ankh-Morpork Guard. Soon we will all follow Ankh-Morpork Guard.*


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## John Crichton (Jun 3, 2005)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> That must have been pretty cool. A couple of huge bonuses for me in seeing ROTS were that it was the first new SW film I've seen since being married and it was the first since ESB that I got to see spoiler free.



Yes, the LotR Trilogy experience is something I'll not forget anytime soon.



			
				Kai Lord said:
			
		

> I casually perused Star Wars newsgroups before TPM and AOTC and both times happened upon threads where the title stated things along the lines of "Obi-Wan kills Darth Maul after Qui-Gonn dies!!111!!" and "Mace Windu kills Jango!11!!!!!" Pretty annoying to say the least. But before ROTS I went on an almost total internet lockdown and got to be surprised all throughout the movie. It was awesome not knowing how Count Dooku, General Grievous, Nute Gunray, Mace Windu, or even Jar Jar ended up.



Spoilers suck.  Ever since the prequels started coming out I have been shielding myself from them.  I stayed away from sites like theforce.net.  I made sure I made it into the theater clean.  I'm glad you were finally able to do the same.  It really helps the entire experience.  I would have been quite annoyed had I learned the things you did about the other prequels.



			
				Kai Lord said:
			
		

> There are things in ROTS that could have been better, a couple CGI clonetrooper shots that were a little too obvious, a rewriting of the "beauty is blind" exchange or however it went, but those are tiny things in the grand scope of the film. Heck I was a little distracted by some cheezy lines in ROTK that seem lifted from Star Wars, "Is Frodo alive," "What does your heart tell you?" and "I've got to save you," "You already did." But I sure didn't let those small things affect one of the greatest films of all time (possibly my absolute favorite, I'll have to let you know when the "Sith buzz" subsides, assuming it does... )



Yeah.  I'm more than willing to let things like clumsy dialogue slide in movies such as LotR and SW.  The stories aren't about how people talk to each other but the story and specticle for me.


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## Welverin (Jun 4, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Yeah.  I'm more than willing to let things like clumsy dialogue slide in movies such as LotR and SW.  The stories aren't about how people talk to each other but the story and specticle for me.




I think part of the problem is that we've become so accustomed to people in movies and television speaking perfectly all the time, whether it's things like uh or um, or simply perfectly constructed lines, that people now expect every character to speak perfectly without ever saying anything weird or stupid (unless it’s for a laugh).

I contend that the cheesy romantic dialogue between Anakin and Padme in Ep2 works, intentional or not, and makes sense for the characters. Particularly for Anakin, after all he was a slave until the age of ten at which point he was taken by the jedi and spent the next ten years to become a jedi himself, that wouldn’t left much time for dating or how to act around the other sex. And that’s assuming the jedi even allowed such things, which they didn’t.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Jun 4, 2005)

David Howery said:
			
		

> one thing that wasn't very clear:  when the clone troopers turned Sen. Organa away from the Jedi Temple, were they planning on shooting him in the back, or were they really going to let him go?  It looked like they were thinking about shooting him anyway.  And just who was the little jedi that popped out of nowhere to attack those troopers.. was he saving Organa or just attacking the troopers?



He was a plot device so that Organa could see that the Jedi were, indeed, being massacred. 

Beyond that, I haven't a clue, but I'm sure someone, somewhere has named him and written a novel.


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Jun 4, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> I agree. But that agreement is why I think "You just aren't thinking hard enough and trying to interpret the movie, which is deep in this one particular part" doesn't fly as a defense.



Man, I was going to say "I didn't say that!"  But I think I might have.   

Eh, I still like it.    

"Deep" might be a bit of a stretch.  I was talking about interpreting Yoda's flight as exhaustion or resignation that he couldn't win, not the deep and abiding symbolic connections between Palpy and Ahab or some crap like that.  But it might be the case that I'm flipping back and forth between "Some thought please!" and "Think less, enjoy more!"

That said, I might have been saying those two things to different people, indicating only that I have achieved the perfect balance between the two, a form of Nerdvana where all movies rock my socks for their different reasons.

Well, except Wing Commander.  And anything with Keanu Reeves, of course.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jun 4, 2005)

Canis said:
			
		

> He was a plot device so that Organa could see that the Jedi were, indeed, being massacred.
> 
> Beyond that, I haven't a clue, but I'm sure someone, somewhere has named him and written a novel.




The Jedi was actually George Lucas' son. Can't remember the Jedi name for him, though, but I believe it was something like Zett.

And it did look to me like the Clones were going to shoot Senator Organa at first. Especially with the "Wait, let him go" when Organa escaped.


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## mojo1701 (Jun 4, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> The Jedi was actually George Lucas' son. Can't remember the Jedi name for him, though, but I believe it was something like Zett.




IMDb: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0121766/fullcredits

Jett Lucas	 .... 	Zett Jukassa


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## wingsandsword (Jun 4, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> The Jedi was actually George Lucas' son. Can't remember the Jedi name for him, though, but I believe it was something like Zett.



http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0121766/fullcredits

Jett Lucas playing Zett Jukassa

Strangely, the real name isn't much weirder than the Star Wars name


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 4, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Strangely, the real name isn't much weirder than the Star Wars name




Yeah, you got to wonder if Jett’s Star Wars’ name equates out to something like Joe Smith…


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## David Howery (Jun 5, 2005)

Did Zett get nailed by the clones?  I thought he went down, but it was all kind of quick blur and I didn't really see it...


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jun 5, 2005)

David Howery said:
			
		

> Did Zett get nailed by the clones?  I thought he went down, but it was all kind of quick blur and I didn't really see it...



 Oh he definitely got taken down...they swarmed him after he cut down a couple of them.


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## der_kluge (Jun 5, 2005)

I know this stuff seems redundant after 10 pages of comments, but I have to join the crowd and post my thoughts, too.  I finally got to see it today. I gave it a 6.

It felt to me like the major thing lacking from the movie was the fact that I knew how it was all basically going to wrap up. I mean, you knew vader was going to lose against Kenobi, you knew the emporer would survive, you knew yoda would survive. You knew Padme was having twins, bla bla bla.

I totally got the Frankenstein reference at the end. I liked Yoda slamming the two imperial guards against the wall. I felt like the whole Kashyyk thing wasn't needed, as someone else commented on earlier. I liked the reference to wedge, and Grand Moff Tarkin. I liked that Lucas threw the diehard fans a little bone in those scenese.

I felt like Anakin's slide was too quick. How do you go from "No, you can't kill him, he's defenseless, it's not the Jedi way!" to killing innocent children in the same day?  Totally unbelievable.

I thought it was the best of the I-III, but still doesn't hold a candle to IV-VI.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jun 5, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> I liked the reference to wedge...





Reference to Wedge? You're talking about "Captain Antilles", right? That actually had nothing to do with Wedge, though it IS a reference to an OT character. Captain Antilles is the guy Vader chokes to death asking for the plans in the opening scenes of A New Hope.

He's not related to Wedge, though. Think of Antilles as the "Smith" of the Star Wars galaxy. Heck, back in Episode I, the Alderaanian senator is Bail Antilles.


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## David Howery (Jun 5, 2005)

one thing that kind of baffled me was that Obi-Wan apparently didn't know that Anakin was the father of Padme's child until he guessed it when he talked to her near the end of the movie.  Just how dense are the Jedi?  Everyone knew that Padme was pregnant, and nobody wondered about it?  Anakin and Padme were all smoochy and huggy right before the arena scene, and they did it right in front of Obi-Wan!  Who did they think was the father?  Did they think Padme went out and picked up sailors in bars?


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jun 5, 2005)

David Howery said:
			
		

> one thing that kind of baffled me was that Obi-Wan apparently didn't know that Anakin was the father of Padme's child until he guessed it when he talked to her near the end of the movie.  Just how dense are the Jedi?  Everyone knew that Padme was pregnant, and nobody wondered about it?  Anakin and Padme were all smoochy and huggy right before the arena scene, and they did it right in front of Obi-Wan!  Who did they think was the father?  Did they think Padme went out and picked up sailors in bars?



 From the way Obi-Wan talked, he sounded like he already knew. He would definitely have been willing to help them out, so probably was keeping his mouth shut when it came to that matter and the rest of the Jedi Council. But that doesn't mean he had to mention that he knew early in the movie or even say how LONG he knew.


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## Dark Jezter (Jun 5, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> From the way Obi-Wan talked, he sounded like he already knew. He would definitely have been willing to help them out, so probably was keeping his mouth shut when it came to that matter and the rest of the Jedi Council. But that doesn't mean he had to mention that he knew early in the movie or even say how LONG he knew.



 Isn't there supposed to be a deleted scene in the movie where Obi-Wan visits Padme and reveals to her that he knows that she and Anakin are in love?


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 5, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Isn't there supposed to be a deleted scene in the movie where Obi-Wan visits Padme and reveals to her that he knows that she and Anakin are in love?



It would make sense...  Anakin asks Padmé if he had been by right after he had another vision/dream of her death with Obi-Wan by her side... but if he’s seeing the future why would Obi-Wan’s appearance in the vision give him any clue on why Obi-Wan had been by.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jun 5, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Isn't there supposed to be a deleted scene in the movie where Obi-Wan visits Padme and reveals to her that he knows that she and Anakin are in love?



 Possibly...though I don't remember one like that off the top of my head. The novel is a fairly good indication of some cut scenes, though, and I still haven't read that yet.


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## Dark Jezter (Jun 5, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Possibly...though I don't remember one like that off the top of my head. The novel is a fairly good indication of some cut scenes, though, and I still haven't read that yet.



 Okay, looks like there was a deleted scene of Obi-Wan telling Padme that he knows of her & Anakin's love.  Here's a deleted scene list courtesy of theforce.net:
6, 7, 8-14, 25, 30, 32, 37-41: FedCruiser scenes cut (Grievous killing Shaak Ti, the Jedi using their lightsabers to escape GG, underwater swim, climb through shaft, many of R2's hangar gags, many Palpatine cliffhangers)
48: Mace greets Palpatine and the Jedi right after the crash-landing
56: Yoda, Obi-Wan and Mace discuss the Dark Side in Yoda's quarters
60: Bail and fellow Senators speak about the Senate
*68-69: Obi-Wan tells Padme of his worries about Anakin and that he knows they're in love*
71: Meeting with Organa, Mon Mothma and Padme
73: Anakin informs Palpatine that Obi-Wan soon will have Grievous' head
74: Jar Jar greets Anakin at Senate
75: Anakin confronts Padme
76-77: Republic cruiser arrives at Utapau
83: Obi-Wan chooses his lizard, Boga
86: Mace talks to Yoda on Kashyyyk, telling him of his plans to arrest Palpatine
88-89: Padme presents to Palpatine the Senators' petition
93: Utapau windmill
121: "crazy" Yoda and Chewbacca ambush an AT-ST
176: Yoda lands on Dagobah

According to Rick McCallum, the RotS DVD will contain 5-6 deleted scenes, mostly plot-building scenes that take place on Coruscant.  So I'm betting that we may be seeing the Padme and Obi-Wan scene when the DVD comes out (as well as the scene with Mon Mothma that was cut).

EDIT:  This list may be outdated, though.  Because I recall hearing that Shaak Ti no longer dies at the hands of General Grievous, but she is instead killed by Anakin during his attack on the Jedi Temple (he sneaks up on her while she's meditating).


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jun 5, 2005)

That list also doesn't include the cut scenes with Qui-Gon Jinn...though whether we were supposed to actually SEE him or just hear him talking with Yoda, I've never seen confirmed one way or the other.


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## der_kluge (Jun 6, 2005)

David Howery said:
			
		

> one thing that kind of baffled me was that Obi-Wan apparently didn't know that Anakin was the father of Padme's child until he guessed it when he talked to her near the end of the movie.  Just how dense are the Jedi?  Everyone knew that Padme was pregnant, and nobody wondered about it?  Anakin and Padme were all smoochy and huggy right before the arena scene, and they did it right in front of Obi-Wan!  Who did they think was the father?  Did they think Padme went out and picked up sailors in bars?




Or how Obi-Wan says that Luke is their last hope in Ep IV, and then Yoda has to step in and say "no, there is another." Did Obi-Wan get amnesia? About there being a second child?


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jun 6, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> Or how Obi-Wan says that Luke is their last hope in Ep IV, and then Yoda has to step in and say "no, there is another." Did Obi-Wan get amnesia? About there being a second child?



 If Luke had failed...he would have likely not been killed, but fallen to the Dark Side. If that happened, it was all over. There was no one left to train Leia(Yoda died of old age barely a year after Empire), and so the Jedi would have finally died out completely.

That and Obi-Wan is obviously sexist.


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## ddvmor (Jun 6, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> 121: "crazy" Yoda and Chewbacca ambush an AT-ST




I so want to see this scene...


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 6, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> Or how Obi-Wan says that Luke is their last hope in Ep IV, and then Yoda has to step in and say "no, there is another."



Maybe the "new" Jedi Death has some other drawbacks beyond becoming translucent


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 8, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> From the way Obi-Wan talked, he sounded like he already knew. He would definitely have been willing to help them out, so probably was keeping his mouth shut when it came to that matter and the rest of the Jedi Council. But that doesn't mean he had to mention that he knew early in the movie or even say how LONG he knew.





Obi-Wan may have known but was wanting to wait to see if Anakin would seek him out for help in this matter. But since Anakin did not, Obi-Wan kept his silence. And definitely did not reveal it to the Council. That may have led to his expulsion from the Order just as it would have led to Anakin's.


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## Kai Lord (Jun 8, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> Or how Obi-Wan says that Luke is their last hope in Ep IV, and then Yoda has to step in and say "no, there is another." Did Obi-Wan get amnesia? About there being a second child?



No, Lucas simply hadn't decided who Luke's sister was going to be when the script for ESB was written.  As far as the story was concerned in 1979-80, Obi-Wan really didn't know about "another."  For the sake of the story as it exists today, just assume that Kenobi had invested so much into Luke that he really didn't see Leia as a possibility.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 8, 2005)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> For the sake of the story as it exists today, just assume that Kenobi had invested so much into Luke that he really didn't see Leia as a possibility.




Well she did become a politician…  and who knows maybe that’s what lead to Palpatine’s path to the dark side.

Besides, compared to some of the other edits in the original trilogy, this one would be minor for Lucas to pull off.   It be like the Star Wars Christmas Special, it never happened!


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## Welverin (Jun 9, 2005)

David Howery said:
			
		

> one thing that kind of baffled me was that Obi-Wan apparently didn't know that Anakin was the father of Padme's child until he guessed it when he talked to her near the end of the movie.  Just how dense are the Jedi?  Everyone knew that Padme was pregnant, and nobody wondered about it?  Anakin and Padme were all smoochy and huggy right before the arena scene, and they did it right in front of Obi-Wan!  Who did they think was the father?  Did they think Padme went out and picked up sailors in bars?




Obi-Wan and Anakin had been out in the outer rim for months, the first time that Obi-wan did see her after returning he *did* understand that it was Anakin's. As for the rest of the Jedi, they simply didn't know about the connection between the two of them, or of some of Anakin's other indiscretions.



			
				Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Possibly...though I don't remember one like that off the top of my head. The novel is a fairly good indication of some cut scenes, though, and I still haven't read that yet.




I don't know, I just finished reading it and there are a fair number of variations in thigs that are in both, not to mention things missing from the movie that I'd just as likely chalk them up as additions by the author.

I like the change in Palpatine story of Plagueis to Anakin at the opera (clears up the we can learn it together bit), there is also a definitive statement on the relation between Sidious and Plagueis.

By the way, did you pick up the comic adaptation yet? I'm interested in the variations in that.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Well she did become a politician…  and who knows maybe that’s what lead to Palpatine’s path to the dark side.




Maybe Obi-wan was jus dismissing her since he doesn't like politicians.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 9, 2005)

Welverin said:
			
		

> Maybe Obi-wan was jus dismissing her since he doesn't like politicians.




My words were spoken mostly in jest...  I’m in the opinion that it should have been handled differently also but I’m not sure how you could have had the story you had without Obi-Wan being present for the birth.  (Without it seeming that he was avoiding it just to avoid it.)


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jun 9, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> … and who knows maybe that’s what lead to Palpatine’s path to the dark side.




I have a friend who has a theory about Palpatine’s own turn to evil. He kept hearing people say “There goes Palpatine – he’s a Naboobian” and eventually this twisted him to evil.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 9, 2005)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> I have a friend who has a theory about Palpatine’s own turn to evil. He kept hearing people say “There goes Palpatine – he’s a Naboobian” and eventually this twisted him to evil.



  That's actually quite clever.   Maybe it was a combination of the two?


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