# Swordsage, how to go about it



## Hexer (Nov 3, 2011)

Hi everyone, havent been around for a while but here I am again 

We are starting a new D&D3.5 game, probably only 2 players (me being one of them) +GM.
The setting will probably be completely inside a big city and the theme will be pretty much along the lines of sneaking, stealing, assasinating and similar stuff. Overall a more rougue oriented thing.

The other partymember will play a Ninja and I've pretty much decided to start a Swordsage because its a martial class but still has stuff like move silently, climb and so on which will probably be pretty important. 
Now its my first time using Tome of Battle and also my first time playing a martially focused class. I'm reading up on the rules I will need but thought it would be a good idea to post here to ask:

1. Are there any ultimate "dos and donts" to playing a Swordsage?
2. What are the basics for assigning my attributes for one?
3. Are there any simple but great multiclassing options or prestige classes for this? (it wont be a powergaming game and I dont want some hugely complex build but sometimes there are simple combinations that just do what you want)

I'm looking mainly to play the capable and mean melee fighter that can keep up with the sneaky/silent theme.
Race has to be decided still, might be human or some kind of half elf or maybe a halforc OR I've even thought about a kind of half-orc/half-elf if a good option for that exists.


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (Nov 3, 2011)

1. Ultimate DO: Take Adaptive Style.  At level 1.  You cannot function properly without it.  Also, DO take flaws if possible.  Swordsage is one of the most horrifically feat-starved classes in all of 3E, IMO.

2. Depends on what you're doing.  If you can afford feats for Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse (and most likely if going that route, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain, since its the only Shadow Hand weapon that doesn't suck), obviously dex is the highest priority.  Swordsage is very multiple ability dependent, just like monk, though.  Leave int at 10 if you're not doing tripping / setting sun throws, charisma is a total dump stat.  But you need lots of dex, good con and strength, and a decent wisdom helps to compensate for the light armor and no shields.  However, later on when you can afford masterwork and/or mithral shields, wisdom is much less necessary if you're not using a 2-handed weapon (even if you are, animated shields become an option ~level 12...).  Point is, wisdom helps at early levels and gradually becomes less critical over time.

3. Swordsage is actually the only ToB class that doesn't have a messed up stance progression, so there's less reason to multiclass from it than the other 2.  If you mutliclass at all, it would likely be a full BAB class w/ bonus feats (Fighter or Swashbuckler, most likely) to help with your feats problem.  If you don't mind destroying your BAB a bit, for the stealthy kind of game you described, Martial Rogue 1-2 might be the best multiclass option (and if doing so you might want your 1st level to be in Rogue so you get the x4 multiplier on the higher skill point total, though then you can't get Adaptive Style till level 3).  Martial Rogue gets feats as a Fighter, so you get one at levels 1 AND 2, so dip 1 or 2, however much you need for the feats you want.  Final thing I'll say on multiclassing is...Adaptive Style simultaneously refreshes maneuvers from ALL your adept classes, so dipping Warblade or Crusader (preferably later on so you can pick up some mid-level maneuvers) could be handy.  I think Warblade synergizes better with swordsage, though crusader has less overlap (having to keep track of their granted maneuvers is annoying as hell, though).

Race: What is available to you?  Whisper Gnome from Races of Stone is a solid sneaker, and being small sized means you can use the awesome Soaring Raptor Strike (3rd level Tiger Claw) on almost anything.  In the Monster Manual, Deep Halflings and Forest Gnomes are both nice sneaky small races.  Wood Elf is a cool medium race if you can deal with the -2 con hit.  Regular PHB dwarves are also good, mainly just cause they're good at anything that's not charisma-based.


----------



## Hexer (Nov 3, 2011)

Actually I thought about wood elf as well since it kind of captures the same thing as the elf/orc thing but is less hassle (doesnt need extra thinking/ruling).

Where can I find stuff about flaws? I dont really know anything about those so far


----------



## NimbleNZ (Nov 3, 2011)

Take the diamond mind stances!

level 1: moment of perfect mind (will)
level 2: action before thought (reflex)
level 5: mind over body (fortitude)

what do these stances do? they turn all your saving throws into concentration checks!

now you have one stat, CON, which powers your HP and ALL your saves.

AND your saves progress faster than they would do from any class, because you can gain a rank for every level up (not sure if concenration is a class skill for swordsage...maybe a 2 level dip into monk for concentration as a class skill and evasion!).

hope that helps! 

NimbleNZ


----------



## NimbleNZ (Nov 3, 2011)

here's a link about flaws:

Character Flaws :: d20srd.org

basically you're allowed 2 and you get a feat for each flaw you take.

traits are cool too, ill see if i can find a link for those.

EDIT: here ya go http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm

enjoy !


----------



## xigbar (Nov 3, 2011)

If you take Wood Elf, you could qualify for the Eternal Blade prestige class.


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (Nov 3, 2011)

NimbleNZ said:


> Take the diamond mind stances!
> 
> level 1: moment of perfect mind (will)
> level 2: action before thought (reflex)
> ...




A few things:
1. These are maneuvers, NOT stances.  Don't confuse the poor OP, there is a huge difference.
2. Swordsage already has great base reflex and will saves and tends to have decent de and wis scores, MoPM and Action Before Thought are very unnecessary.  I do think every Swordsage should have Mind Over Body, though.
3. These all occupy maneuvers known and readied, which is especially why learning the other 2 is a waste of resources.
4. These are al immediate actions to use, so you can only use one per round, and doing so means no swift actions the following round for you.  That can get really annoying.  And once you use it, until you take a full round action to Adaptive Style or refresh it the normal way, you don't have it anymore, an enemy could just spam the same attack on you.  In short, even with Mind Over Body, it's not some fool proof thing you can rely on to always save your ass.
5. The best thing about these maneuvers is not auto failing on a 1.  Since most save-or-dies are fortitude as well as poisons, again, Mind Over Body is the clear MVP for Swordsage.



NimbleNZ said:


> AND your saves progress faster than they would do from any class, because you can gain a rank for every level up (not sure if concenration is a class skill for swordsage...maybe a 2 level dip into monk for concentration as a class skill and evasion!).




It is a class skill for Swordsage already.


----------



## NimbleNZ (Nov 3, 2011)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> A few things:
> 1. These are maneuvers, NOT stances. Don't confuse the poor OP, there is a huge difference.
> 2. Swordsage already has great base reflex and will saves and tends to have decent de and wis scores, MoPM and Action Before Thought are very unnecessary. I do think every Swordsage should have Mind Over Body, though.
> 3. These all occupy maneuvers known and readied, which is especially why learning the other 2 is a waste of resources.
> ...




oops i totally thought they were stances not manoeuvers.

maybe because im thinking about it from the PoV of taking a 2 or 3 level dip in swordsage, but not failing on a 1, even better saves, and slaving all saves to one useful attribute sounds like a good deal to me; even for giving up swift actions.

surely theres enough manoeuvers readied? at lvl 1 theres 4 and by lvl 20 theres 12, isn't that enough?


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (Nov 3, 2011)

Not if you rely on strikes for the vast majority of your offense like most swordsages...  Boosts are also nice, swordsage gets more of them than any other adept.  I guess at level 20 when you have 12 readied it's only eating 1/4 of your readied maneuvers.  It's certainly a terrible idea at level 5, though.


----------



## Particle_Man (Nov 4, 2011)

Swordsage with another ToB class is pretty much necessary for getting into the Master of Nine prestige class, but going "all out" with Swordsage ain't bad either.

Stone Dragon stuff only works if you are on the ground (not flying, mounted, etc.) and Stone Dragon stances often only work if you don't move.  Something to watch out for.

There is a feat that gives you an extra readied maneuver (but take Adaptive Style first).

Shadow Hand is great for ninja type stuff.
Setting Sun is good for throwing people around, if that is how you roll.
Diamond Mind is good for saves, and other counters.  Oh, and blindsense.
Desert Wind gives you speed and fire stuff (and a stance that gives you progressive fire resistance and eventually fire immunity!).
Tiger Claw gives you jumping stuff and 2WF goodness.

Of the three, if you are going all sneaky assassin ninja then Shadow Hand is your first point of call, then see what works for you.  Maybe Shadow Hand/Tiger Claw with some Diamond Mind?

Oh, and despite the name, the prestige class Shadow Sun Ninja is not worth it, and might even kill your character.


----------



## Dandu (Nov 4, 2011)

I have a Swordsage.


----------



## Hexer (Nov 4, 2011)

Doesnt look bad Dandu


With a woodelf Swordsage I think I'm going for a kinda Tribal Warrior thing and my idea is focussing mainly on Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw Disciplines. Sound good so far?

Was also thinking about Weapons to use and would like either axe (probably either two handed or TWF with one handed axes) or spiked chain maybe. Any suggestions for weapons that will work well with the above discipline combination?

I will try to make this char basically a stealthy, kinda ninja thing on one side and a mean melee fighter on the other side. So maybe some Setting Sun, Diamond Mind, Desert Wind would be a good idea, too?

I came to the same conclusion of the Shadow Sun Ninja PRC not being worth it but the Bloodclaw Master looks like it could be interesting. Thoughts?


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (Nov 4, 2011)

Shadow Hand / Tiger Claw is a good combo, and a swordsage can really afford a bit from everywhere.  Diamond Mind is great in general, and even Desert Wind and Stone Dragon have some very nice maneuvers.

Setting Sun...it's one of my favorite disciplines, but it was poorly done.  The flavor is all about little folks using a giant's own momentum against him, but in actuality, all the throw maneuvers still use the core trip mechanic.  Yeah, you can use dex instead of str, but you're also still limited to tripping things up to one size bigger than you and they still get their massive size bonus on strength checks, so it doesn't work as intended at all.  If I make a setting sun based character, I make him as big and strong as possible, in direct contrast to how it's supposed to work.  I think Counter Charge is worth learning (it is NOT a trip maneuver, size modifiers should not apply, nor should limits on what you can affect), the Step of the Wind stance is great in games where the DM uses terrain, and the ~level 5 stance and maneuvers to move out of turn or teleport are handy, and fool's strike is super sexy, but otherwise I would ignore the discipline completely if not optimizing your trip check.

Weapons: Whatever you pick, pick something you can get Weapon Focus for via level 1 swordsage, otherwise you're wasting a class feature.  Using a discipline's stuff has no requirement that you use its key weapon, so don't let that limit you.  As long as the weapon you pick is on one of the swordsage disciplines' lists, you're good.  I suspect as a ninja-like build, you'll be relying on high dex and shadow hand stances, so I suggest you look into Shadow Blade, but that requires you to use a SH weapon, and again, spiked chain is the only one that's actually decent (short sword is the next best choice).  I would avoid TWF, your BAB already is mediocre, and your stats will be spread thin, and TWF is extremely costly in feats, which is one of your biggest problems already.  Just use mostly standard action strikes and skirmish around with tumble.

Setting Sun: As I said.
Diamond Mind: One of the best disciplines, especially the "X Nightmare Blade" line (not so much Sapphire, but it's only level 1, so can't expect much) and the Insightful Strikes.  Emerald Razor is great with a 2H weapon and power attack, mediocre otherwise.  Don't bother with the save replacers except for Mind Over Body.  The 1st level stance is bad (aside from the obvious reasons, you can get half its insight bonus to AC against all enemies from a 5000 gp iuon stone), the 3rd level stance is cool but usually impractical, the 5th level stance is amazing and you should absolutely take it, and the 8th level can be good if you have a lot of counters, but is easily skippable.
Desert Wind: Don't bother with any of the blasting maneuvers except possibly Fan the Flames and Ring of Fire.  Distracting Ember, the boosts to add fire damage to your weapon (and the 2nd level one to just make it purely fire), the two charge maneuvers, the 1st level stance, and Leaping Flame are probably the best parts of DW, but the only one I think any swordsage should have is Distracting Ember.  Desert Tempest could be fun if you can make high DC tumbles to move at full speed and face lots of enemies.

Bloodclaw: I'm not a fan of it, I'd just stay in Swordsage.


----------



## Hexer (Nov 4, 2011)

How about going for a two handed weapon like a greataxe?
How well does a large weapon like this work when Tigerclaw seems to favour TWF with a lot of its manouvers? The greataxe IS a favoured weapon of Tigerclaw though....


> I suspect as a ninja-like build, you'll be relying on high dex and shadow hand stances, so I suggest you look into Shadow Blade, but that requires you to use a SH weapon, and again, spiked chain is the only one that's actually decent (short sword is the next best choice).




Spiked Chain is a two-handed weapon though


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (Nov 4, 2011)

Tiger Claw also has a lot of jump-and-strike maneuvers that work best with a single strong weapon, you can have a lot of tiger claw w/o touching the TWF stuff (though Wolf Fang Strike is the only level 1 maneuver or stance w/o any maneuvers known required, which is annoying; both the level 2 maneuvers otherwise can be entry points).

Soaring Raptor Strike
Death from Above
Claw at the Moon
All the Rabid ___ Strike ones
Swooping Dragon Strike
The level 9 maneuver

And that's just the strikes.


----------



## Hexer (Nov 7, 2011)

What do you think about this selection of known maneuvers and stances for a level 2 Swordsage (we will start at lvl2)?:

lvl1:

6 maneuvers known:
- (SH) shadow blade technique
- (SH) clinging shadow strike
- (DW) burning blade
- (DW) Wind Stride
- (SD) charging minotaur
- (SS) mighty throw

1 stances known:
- (SH) child of shadow


lvl2:
+1 maneuver:
- (DW) distracting ember

+1 stance:
- (SH) island of blades


No Tigerclaw in there yet since I'm still limited to 1st level stuff (2nd level at character level3), Shadow hand ate up the stances and of the 2 Tigerclaw maneuvers that are 1st lvl, one isnt for me as I'm using a two handed weapon (wolf fang strike) and the one that would actually be usefull I cant take because its the only one with a prerequisite.... (sudden leap).
The focus on Shadow Hand and Tigerclaw will probably be more dominant when I get more levels


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (Nov 7, 2011)

Wind Stride sucks.  Its 1 round and will not stack with boots of S&S.
Clinging Shadow Strike sucks, the save DC will be pitiful for a very small effect.
Charging Minotaur is interesting, but you have to win a str check for the maneuver to do anything at all, so it's not bloody likely to happen, especially if you're not going the "big, high strength" route.

Your partner's a ninja, he can't sudden strike from flanking, so island of blades is largely worthless to the both of you.

I would get Wolf Fang Strike (you can't ready all your maneuvers anyway, so it's ok to have a dud) and Sudden Leap, and swap WFS out at level 4.


----------



## Hexer (Nov 7, 2011)

Attributes so far are:

STR 16
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 12

(36 pointbuy)

My Strength is not so bad and I guess I'll probably use points from level advancement for Dex first...

Ok, you pointed out quite a few things I wasnt really aware of.... I'll think about it and do some changes.
Can you actually ready the same 4 maneuvers (on lvl1 or 2) again after they are expended by use of adaptive style? I dont have the book in front of me right now but I seem to remember it was worded specifically to swap out readied maneuvers.

Wolf fang strike really is of no use at all to me while using a twohanded weapon, correct?


----------



## Empirate (Nov 7, 2011)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> Wind Stride sucks.  Its 1 round and will not stack with boots of S&S.
> Clinging Shadow Strike sucks, the save DC will be pitiful for a very small effect.
> Charging Minotaur is interesting, but you have to win a str check for the maneuver to do anything at all, so it's not bloody likely to happen, especially if you're not going the "big, high strength" route.
> 
> ...




Good advice, except Charging Minotaur can be excellent for getting out of a bind. You charge and provoke no AoOs for moving. That alone is great to get around on the battlefield.


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (Nov 8, 2011)

Hexer said:


> Attributes so far are:
> 
> STR 16
> DEX 14
> ...




You can choose to ready the exact same maneuver set if you want, no rule says otherwise.

For stats, I suggest dropping cha to 8 and dex to 16.  You need dex lots, charisma not so much, and swordsage really doesn't get much for charisma skills anyway.  You can use WFS with a 2H weapon, the offhand attack would just be an unarmed strike (don't do this unless you have Imrpoved Unarmed Strike, though!), armor spikes, or something like that.  Still seldom worth readying, but again, you can afford one or two junk maneuvers just to meet pre-reqs, and can swap them out later.  Sudden Leap is very good, and it doesn't make much sense to pick it, a level 1 maneuver, up when you can start getting level 2+ maneuvers.  Just get WFS and drop it at level 4 for another level 2 maneuver.



Empirate said:


> Good advice, except Charging Minotaur can be excellent for getting out of a bind. You charge and provoke no AoOs for moving. That alone is great to get around on the battlefield.




And that'd be really awesome if he were a Crusader in full plate.  But he's a swordsage in light armor...with tumble as a class skill...


----------



## Hexer (Nov 8, 2011)

ooooookay, so I swapped wind stride and clinging shadow strike for wolf fang strike and sudden leap. What would you suggest for my second stance if island of blades really wont be usefull?
Looking at the 2 1st lvl tigerclaw stances I dont really see how they'll do much for me...
blood in the water would be cool if I rolled a lot of crits so it would be great for a crit build which hasnt been a focus here so far
hunter's sense would give me scent... yea well... will it be of much use? especially in an urban environment?

other options:
- flame's blessing: gives fire resistance. sounds nice but depends a lot on what we will be facing which I have no idea about yet
- stance of clarity: +2 AC against one foe, -2 against all others. might be good as well as break my neck depending on the situation, could always change stances when facing more than 1 enemy of course
- step of the wind: I dont really think we'll be in difficult terrain a lot
- stonefoot stance: sounds good as long as you dont move a lot which is basically the opposite of my other stance (child of shadows), not sure if I like that yet...


oh and thanks for mentioning armor spikes cause I was thinking about those, too but forgot. Are they treated as an unarmed strike or as a light weapon or what? Been a while since I read the rules for them...

And thanks for all your helpful input so far StreamOfTheSky! 

EDIT: never mind about the armor spikes, I just found the text about them. They count as light wepons when used in a normal or offhand melee attack and you can deal extra damage with them when grappling. Sounds good and usefull to me. Also this could give me a bit of an edge should I ever not have that axe with me for whatever reason


----------



## Empirate (Nov 8, 2011)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> And that'd be really awesome if he were a Crusader in full plate.  But he's a swordsage in light armor...with tumble as a class skill...




Sure enough, I only ever used CM on a Crusader... you got me there.


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (Nov 8, 2011)

Hunter's Sense is handy, my only problem with it is I always take Hearing the Air (Diamond Mind) as a 5th level stance, which pretty much supercedes it completely.

Blood in the Water is terrible unless you're dual wielding 18-20 threat weapons with keen or improved critical and really building towards it.

I don't like Clarity.  It's bad until only one guy is left, and the bonus type overlaps with the Dusty Rose Iuon stone you'l eventually have.

Flame's Blessing...it's not really great till the Fire Immunity around level 16, you can probably skip it.

I really love Step of the Wind, but if you don't think there'll be much difficult terrain, then it's useless.

Stonefoot is decent.  The Stone Dragon restrictions are annoying for sure, but thinking of it as your stance for when mostly still and CoS as the one for movement, it might complement well.


----------



## Hexer (Nov 9, 2011)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> I really love Step of the Wind, but if you don't think there'll be much difficult terrain, then it's useless.
> 
> Stonefoot is decent.  The Stone Dragon restrictions are annoying for sure, but thinking of it as your stance for when mostly still and CoS as the one for movement, it might complement well.



I took Step of the Wind now anyways. Just sounded a lot better to me than Stonefoot Stance. We'll see if I get much use out of it but I figured if we dont face a lot of difficult terrain in the city I can still try to draw fights to such terrain anyways, maybe fighting on rooftops, getting onto tables, ..... is there actually some kind of "grenade-type" item that makes an areas ground difficult terrain? Like a "grease-bomb" or something?


----------



## Hexer (Nov 11, 2011)

My last question still stands: Are there ways or items that let you make an area "difficult terrain" for some time?


----------



## kitcik (Nov 11, 2011)

Hexer said:


> My last question still stands: Are there ways or items that let you make an area "difficult terrain" for some time?




Heck yeah, be a mad alchemist (last power).


----------



## Empirate (Nov 11, 2011)

Hexer said:


> My last question still stands: Are there ways or items that let you make an area "difficult terrain" for some time?




Any number of spells can do that for you, like Grease, Entangle etc. Just get an item that does one of these.

Feat-wise, Earth Devotion isn't too bad at all (although there're better devotion feats).

The Knight class has an ability that lets them treat their threatened squares as difficult terrain for all enemies, but that won't likely help, I guess.


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (Nov 11, 2011)

Empirate said:


> The Knight class has an ability that lets them treat their threatened squares as difficult terrain for all enemies, but that won't likely help, I guess.




Actually, that would be perfect.  But that's a few levels in, and Knight comes with a lot of code of conduct baggage he definitely does not want.


----------



## Dandu (Nov 11, 2011)

Hexer said:


> My last question still stands: Are there ways or items that let you make an area "difficult terrain" for some time?



Caltrops and marbles.


----------



## kitcik (Nov 11, 2011)

Dandu said:


> Caltrops and marbles.




Although I would rule in your favor, I don't think they technically create difficult terrain under RAW.


----------



## xigbar (Nov 11, 2011)

kitcik said:


> Although I would rule in your favor, I don't think they technically create difficult terrain under RAW.




The effects of Caltrops in and of themselves are similar to hindered terrain. Adding in marbles makes it even more so.


----------



## kitcik (Nov 11, 2011)

xigbar said:


> The effects of Caltrops in and of themselves are similar to hindered terrain. Adding in marbles makes it even more so.




True but, under RAW, Step of the Wind wouldn't help you so you would not have achieved the desired result.



> Step of the Wind
> "... incurred by moving through difficult terrain."


----------

