# Starting Campaign - Monk Class



## Admiral Caine (Feb 1, 2010)

Like many folks I've decided to start a WotBS campaign. I'm setting the ground rules on races and classes. My approach might be a little stricter than some GMs.. but I like to avoid realy wacky starting races and classes in a new campaign. The reason being that at first level I want the focus to be on the adventure and not the radical differences between a PC and everybody else. Later in the campaign, if a character needs to be replaced I tend to loosen up and all be more forgiving towards more provocative ideas. By then the players have a good idea of the setting and are encountering unusual NPCs.

*Sorry for the long prelude, here's my question*:

The background from the Players Guide seems really tolerant towards the idea of PC Monks. However I know the conversion to 4E started before WOTC released the Monk (or it was around the same time).

There is very little info on the Monastary of the Two Winds available at first. Will it be a problem to have PC Monks from there?

Secondly, the two Heroic Tier Feats that relate to being an Initiate to the Winds.. Specifically the Initiate of the East Wind. I'm a little concerned that it might be a balanced feat for any class that meets it's requirements except for the monk- but since almost every attack a monk makes is unarmed to start with, it's an almost permanent 1d6 lightning damage across the board for almost every attack.

I could be wrong, that could be no big deal. However if anyone has any thoughts on it...

... and allowing monk PCs in general.. I'd be most appreciative.


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## Kzach (Feb 1, 2010)

Admiral Caine said:


> I could be wrong, that could be no big deal. However if anyone has any thoughts on it...
> 
> ... and allowing monk PCs in general.. I'd be most appreciative.




Personally I didn't allow any of the feats or powers. I didn't feel any of them added to the story but many of them were overpowered and not only overpowered, but free.

Having said that, as a player pointed out to me, the campaign itself is geared towards an epic, high-powered play-style. Which is why I've added a modified version of Blade of the Resistance for free to the PC's (they had to EARN it though, through their good deeds).

The monk itself isn't a problem though and I'm struggling to understand why you would think it is, or for that matter, why any of the races should be banned either. A githzerei monk is awesome.


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## Admiral Caine (Feb 1, 2010)

Kzach said:


> Personally I didn't allow any of the feats or powers. I didn't feel any of them added to the story but many of them were overpowered and not only overpowered, but free.




That is useful feedback and something I appreciate hearing. I'm familiar enough with 4E to play it (and hopefully run it), but I don't always spot the issues ahead of time.

Would you feel differently if the backgrounds only allowed the players to "buy" the feat (per normal character creation rules) instead of receiving them for free? Or do you still feel that they're overpowered? Any thoughts on which ones are better than others?

How about the rituals and powers?

And please, opinions from other posters are welcome too! I'd like to hear about your experiences.



Kzach said:


> Having said that, as a player pointed out to me, the campaign itself is geared towards an epic, high-powered play-style. Which is why I've added a modified version of Blade of the Resistance for free to the PC's (they had to EARN it though, through their good deeds).




Would you care to post the modification you made?



Kzach said:


> The monk itself isn't a problem though




::nod:: I was mostly concerned about those backgrounds and feats.

Does any one know if a future chapter would give me some background on the monastary? Other than just the name itself? If a player decides to play one I want to be able to describe it a little. 

I just realized I might have the 3.5 PDFs when they were on sales for a $1.00 here at EnWorld sometime ago. I might be able to mine that for details.



Kzach said:


> I'm struggling to understand why you would think it is, or for that matter, why any of the races should be banned either. A githzerei monk is awesome.




Spoiler text below.



Spoiler



 It's a matter of personal taste and GM style. I'm going to answer, but please understand that this isn't part of my question or even something I feel I'm going to change my mind about. I think 'banned' is a little heavier word than I would use. I might be a little green to 4E, but not to GMing itself. Sometimes a player comes up with a wonderfully creative backstory for an unusual character and it really adds to the game. At other times you get an exotic character just for the sake of being exotic, and it doesn't add to the story but detracts from it as the setting itself buckles to try to rationalize this player character hero. 

This is not hard and fast rule for me, or even universal from GM to GM. I do find it easier to insert an unusual character later in the campaign. Finally, I wouldn't flatly turn down ANY proposal, I'd give it a fair hearing first.. if the player could sell me on it I'd allow it. 

Respectfully, if this is really discussion worthy I'd like to see it in another thread. I'm mostly interested in potential background problems (like overpowered feats), and how to help characters with backgrounds that fit in with the setting smoothly.


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## Admiral Caine (Feb 2, 2010)

Anybody else? Please?

I can make my own decisions of course, I was just hoping to draw upon some of the accumulated wisdom.


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## RangerWickett (Feb 2, 2010)

The Monastery of Two Winds is headed by two brothers, Longinus (of the West Wind) and Pilus (of the East Wind). West wind monks focus on grace, insight, and defense, while east wind monks train for swift agility and offensive power, with the power to channel ki into lightning.

[sblock]Assuming nothing changes in the 4e version, Pilus has a big chip on his shoulder, because he has watched militant nations like Ragesia conquer and destroy too many times. He has learned to harness the powers of the elements, and he's creating a doomsday weapon -- a colossal living airship, capable of causing storms, earthquakes, and tidal waves, and large enough to carry an army of its own.

He has set up an alliance with Ragesia to keep their eyes off him as he finalizes his pet project. Meanwhile, he has won the adulation of the weak-willed ruler of Ostalin, and when the time is right the armies of Ostalin will board his flying leviathan and lay waste to the capitals of the world, ensuring that no nation survives with enough strength to oppose him. He basically plans to keep kicking over any anthills that get too big -- any nation that tries to conquer a neighbor, he intends to crush.

Yes, the plan would never actually achieve what he wants, because he's just sowing more chaos, which will hardly foster peaceful coexistence. But he wants to topple tyrants, and this is how he justifies it.

His brother Longinus doesn't know what his brother is up to. He just thinks Pilus is tinkering in his own laboratory in a nearby valley; he knows of his brother's fascination with biomancy and monster crafting, and Pilus makes sure to hint at enough _minor_ bad things he's doing, like experimenting on criminals, so that his brother will focus his attention on those, and miss the fact that Pilus has been crafting a super weapon.

Generally the monks are peaceful, though the east wind monks tend a bit more to showmanship, with duels to establish who's toughest. Most live in isolation on their mountaintop, but I figure a few new applicants every year come from distant nations, and perhaps more now as they flee the Ragesian scourge. 

Some monks come to learn, but not to stay, and whenever Pilus finds someone who has a fondness for a particular element, he tries to earn that person's loyalty. For instance Lee, in adventure 3, has a fondness for water. If he ever meets Katrina, he'll probably try to recruit her too.

And Pilus no doubt has agents out scouting for him.[/sblock]


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## Admiral Caine (Feb 2, 2010)

Thanks Ryan! That's a big help!

I think I'm going to go through the Heroic Feats and just compare them to the one in the Core Books and make sure there is a degree of parity.


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## RangerWickett (Feb 2, 2010)

I wasn't involved in the 4e WotBS rule writing, but in my honest opinion, 4e core feats are boring as dust. A little power boost would be fine with me if it makes things fun.


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## Kzach (Feb 2, 2010)

RangerWickett said:


> I wasn't involved in the 4e WotBS rule writing, but in my honest opinion, 4e core feats are boring as dust. A little power boost would be fine with me if it makes things fun.




I don't have a problem with making interesting feats, but I do have a problem if they're overpowered.

And those feats are not only overpowered, but freebies. Even if they were balanced, giving them away for free is overpowered.

Consider the Blade of the Resistance feat. Everyone would take that because there's no reason not to. So then you have five people doing +10 points of damage every round.

Hell, that's unbalanced even at epic.


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## Morrus (Feb 3, 2010)

Kzach said:


> I don't have a problem with making interesting feats, but I do have a problem if they're overpowered.
> 
> And those feats are not only overpowered, but freebies. Even if they were balanced, giving them away for free is overpowered.
> 
> ...




We've not found it unbalancing anything, and we're into Paragon now.


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## Kzach (Feb 3, 2010)

Morrus said:


> We've not found it unbalancing anything, and we're into Paragon now.




I came up with a lot of reasons why it was unbalanced and arguments to support my reasoning. Then I realised that if you think it's balanced now, there's really nothing I can do that will convince you otherwise.

So... meh.


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## Morrus (Feb 3, 2010)

Kzach said:


> I came up with a lot of reasons why it was unbalanced and arguments to support my reasoning.




In this thread?



> Then I realised that if you think it's balanced now, there's really nothing I can do that will convince you otherwise.
> 
> So... meh.




I'm not trying to tell you what to do in your game, or even to convince you of anything. I honestly don't mind if you don't use them - they're optional, after all! I was merely reporting my own experience.


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## Truename (Feb 3, 2010)

Morrus said:


> I'm not trying to tell you what to do in your game, or even to convince you of anything. I honestly don't mind if you don't use them - they're optional, after all! I was merely reporting my own experience.




And no offense meant to Kzach, I find reports of actual play experience more credible than theorycrafting, particularly when it comes to 4e.


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## Kzach (Feb 3, 2010)

Truename said:


> And no offense meant to Kzach, I find reports of actual play experience more credible than theorycrafting, particularly when it comes to 4e.




Up until recently I was in four regular D&D games and played irregular LFR events both on and offline. This amounted to about 4-6 games per week.

By your logic, whatever I say should be the word of God.


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## Morrus (Feb 3, 2010)

OK, let's head the sarcasm and low-level hostility off at the pass, eh?  This isn't the "prove I am right" forum, nor is it the "get the last word" forum.


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## Blackbrrd (Feb 3, 2010)

Kzach said:


> I don't have a problem with making interesting feats, but I do have a problem if they're overpowered.
> 
> And those feats are not only overpowered, but freebies. Even if they were balanced, giving them away for free is overpowered.
> 
> ...




Blade of the Resistance
[Gate Pass]
Fed up with Ragesian and Shahalesti oppression,
you wage a discreet war against them.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to Insight
checks. Once per encounter you can select an
intelligent creature who has dealt damage to you
or your allies as your preferred foe. Until the end
of the encounter, you gain a +2 bonus to your
damage rolls against your preferred foe.
The foe you select need not have dealt
the damage during the current encounter; a
previous encounter will suffice.
Special: You gain this feat as a bonus feat if
your character begins at 1st level affiliated with
the Gate Pass resistance.

If every character assigns the same foe as the preferred foe and get a +2 damage bonus vs this opponent. 5 characters doing this get a +2 damage bonus each. A single target can usually take 4-5 hits before going down. High powered, sure it is. The feats that grant wizards +str to damage is much more high-powered. 

+10 damage total for the whole party at epic is hardly noticeable.

Personally I won't allow any of the feats, but I will probably do some more "personal" customization of the characters that's more high-powered.


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## EugeneZ (Feb 3, 2010)

Blade of the Resistance is definitely overpowered. +2 to damage against nearly any opponent as a free background feat goes beyond the very limited scope that background feats exist to fill in 4e. Compare to any of the background feats in PHB2, or Scales of War, or Forgotten Realms. I have yet to see a background feat this powerful.

That said, I'm completely with Morrus and RangerWickett on this.



			
				Morrus said:
			
		

> We've not found it unbalancing anything, and we're into Paragon now.




He didn't say anything about it being overpowered or not, which, at the risk of putting words in your mouth, is what I think you're really driving at.

Several of my players took this feat as well, and I hesitated allowing it, but with the mindset that its a tasteful, fun feat, I did so and it's paid off: when a player uses it in the heat of battle, particularly when fighting Ragesians, it tends to highlight the character's anger and aggression towards the targetted party.

The +2 to damage, while mechanically overpowered, does not affect our game in any meaningful way. As with most rules, your experience may vary, of course -- but there are better courses of action than simply banning the feat. For example, consider selecting the target of the extra damage to be a minor action, or even a standard. Players may hesitate to take it then, but at least you're not forcing them to avoid taking feats that are in the Player's Guide.

Another way to balance it would be to make it a daily power. None of this is necessary in my game because it's not unbalancing.

Regarding monks, we had a player who was a monk in Gate Pass, studying abroad, as it were. It worked out quite well. Considering the Monastery of the Two Winds is a major part of the campaign world, and with all the information RangerWickett provided above, I think a monk character is one of the best ways to add some flavor to a character in Burning Sky.

I'm starting #4 (Banquet) now, and so far I haven't seen any instance where having a monk would be troublesome.


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## Morrus (Feb 3, 2010)

EugeneZ said:


> He didn't say anything about it being overpowered or not, which, at the risk of putting words in your mouth, is what I think you're really driving at.




Absolutely; they're certainly powerful feats. Nobody's denying that. However, we've not experienced any unbalancing of our game due to them.

We've also not found that it's a dead cert that everybody takes BotR. We have a full mix of the background feats in our group. If that's really an issue in your game, I guess you could tell your players that they can each choose one background feat and they must all be different.

Or disallow them. They don't particularly affect anything.  They're optional for a reason.  I like having 'em personally.


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## Kzach (Feb 3, 2010)

I took a different route.

I disallowed any of the feats for balance reasons.

But at the point where Buron asks the players if they want to join the resistance, I gave them a modified version of Blade of the Resistance for free.

Mine was a +2 power bonus to Diplomacy checks against anyone sympathetic to the cause of the resistance.

In addition, as a minor action once per encounter, they can assist a comrade with this feat by singling out an enemy and granting their ally a once off +2 damage bonus against that target.

It retains the flavour of the feat, rewards players for being heroes, and isn't overpowered.


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## Kzach (Feb 3, 2010)

Blackbrrd said:


> +10 damage total for the whole party at epic is hardly noticeable.




Players will pretty quickly clue in that targeting separate mobs each maximises the damage bonus.

Say 5 standard monsters with 40 hit points each doing an average of 8 points of damage a round. +2 damage ups the average to 10, so 4 hits on each monster.

Across the entire group that's an extra 40 points of damage done in that combat. And that's just at 1st-level. By epic, that +2 is contributing about a hundred or so extra points of damage per combat.


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## Daern (Feb 4, 2010)

EugeneZ said:


> Regarding monks, we had a player who was a monk in Gate Pass, studying abroad, as it were. It worked out quite well. Considering the Monastery of the Two Winds is a major part of the campaign world, and with all the information RangerWickett provided above, I think a monk character is one of the best ways to add some flavor to a character in Burning Sky.
> 
> I'm starting #4 (Banquet) now, and so far I haven't seen any instance where having a monk would be troublesome.




I agree about the monks.
In my campaign the background feats fell victim to the curse of the CB.

Also, I would love to hear about your xp in Shelter!   perhaps in another thread...


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## Admiral Caine (Feb 4, 2010)

Thanks for your replies gentlemen! I was pleased to come back to find more discussion. Although.. I didn't mean to start a contentious discussion, but it looks like Morrus has things well in hand.  

I'll be comfortable allowing monks now.

As for the Background Feats..  I think I'll take the following stance.

1.) I'll point out that they're not in the CB, so nothing will be conveniently calculated for them.

2.) I'll tell them that they may be powerful. They're good players. If the feats really capture their imagination, I'll ask them to audit them on how best to make them a little more balanced. Perhaps by not being "free feats" but rather selected feats, and/or watered down a little. Most of them don't like to munchkin anyway.

3.) I'll point out that the spirit of the background can be kept along with a bonus that is more in line to examples in the Core Books.


Again, I appreciate the discussion! 

I got kinda pulled away from this when I made it to Round Three in RPG Superstar!


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## samursus (Feb 4, 2010)

Adding my experiences with the BotR Feat.  All characters now have it, 2 having chosen it at 1st level and 2 having joined after the White Wyrm encounter I believe.

Now, granted, we have only just finished the -something- Dead encounter, but none of the characters have even used it, except for perhaps the Insight bonus written on their character sheets.

So, therefore the feat has been a non-issue so far for my group.


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## Daern (Feb 4, 2010)

@Caine  Congrats on the contest.  Care to post a link?


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