# Dragon 338: Returning to Athas, part1



## Silverblade The Ench (Jun 10, 2010)

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Returning to Athas, Part 1)

just up! 

sorry its subscriber only so I can't post it all here for you :/

talks about how they thought about 4th ed Athas in development, what to leave in and out.
good stuff 

I like this when talking about how/what races the setting has, as they want 4th ed players to have the core races of 4th and nto feel Dark sun is "exclusionary"...instead, Dark Sun is "different":


> the eladrin in Dark Sun aren’t your erudite masters of arcane magic that retreat into palatial estates in another realm. Nothing comes through into Dark Sun without being twisted by the setting’s premises.



hehe 
so far, they have added races in etc is cool. wonder if eladrin are plane hopping thieves or terrorists, hm? (if there is a feywild, which I think the designers said there is, maybe they are out for revenge for it being damaged, or to defend it?)

also glad they kept to the original Dark Sun boxed set, as the article explains why etc.
yeah, the revised stuff/Prism Pentad had made it NOT feel like Athas anymore!


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## vagabundo (Jun 10, 2010)

Nice Article.

+1 to Dark Sun Hype


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## the Jester (Jun 10, 2010)

Silverblade The Ench said:


> wonder if eladrin are plane hopping thieves or terrorists, hm? (if there is a feywild, which I think the designers said there is, maybe they are out for revenge for it being damaged, or to defend it?)




Here's what the background info in the Dark Sun adventure for Encounters has to say about eladrin:



			
				Fury of the Wastewalker said:
			
		

> The secretive eladrin live in the few wild places still touched by what they call teh Lands within the Wind (the Feywild), and are a near-mythical race to most.




Not much, but it's what we've got so far.


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## I'm A Banana (Jun 11, 2010)

I'm nervous about those race comments. I would've included *Athas is isolated* as one of the big bold sentences they talked about during the opening. Which means: planehopping is bad for the feel of the setting, mmmkay? Which means, I am a little concerned about the "Lands Within The Wind" and blink elves.

But it might not be much of a damaging effect. If there's a sentence about how eladrin or tieflings or gnomes or whatever _might_ fit into the setting, and then they're mostly ignored, I've got no major problems with it. 

I think it's awesome that eladrin, dragonborn, dwarves, halflings, etc., don't make much of an appearance in the example characters so far. Elves, OK. Muls, Thri-Kreen, Half-Giants, yes (I've got some qualms about re-purposing stats for new races, but eh...not big ones.  ). Humans, of course. Standard Tolkeinesque Fantasy Race #459, no.


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## TarionzCousin (Jun 11, 2010)

It's going to be okay: Halflings are still cannibals.


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## Obryn (Jun 11, 2010)

It's pretty much what I wanted and expected, regarding the races.   What's important isn't limiting PC races to stuff that existed in 2nd edition.  It's dark-sun-ifying those new races, and making them appropriately fit the world.

I also expected the soft-handed approach to the rest.

All in all, I am flush with the success of my guesses. 

-O


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## I'm A Banana (Jun 11, 2010)

On the other thing, I'm kind of psyched about the thri-kreen possibilities. I really want to play my four-sword-wielding whirling dervish of destruction that I envisioned way back in 2e, but couldn't do. I'm hoping adding the Wahoo will make my General Grievous dreams a spinning, decapitating, slashing reality!


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## Wraith Form (Jun 11, 2010)

I was surprisingly satisfied how they brought dragonborn in--I'd forgotten that there were "dragonborn" (of a sort) in the setting as far back as 2nd edition!


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## RodneyThompson (Jun 11, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> I'm nervous about those race comments. I would've included *Athas is isolated* as one of the big bold sentences they talked about during the opening. Which means: planehopping is bad for the feel of the setting, mmmkay? Which means, I am a little concerned about the "Lands Within The Wind" and blink elves.




Except the whole "planar isolation of Athas" is hugely overblown, especially in the context of the original setting. The first boxed set references summoning creatures from the outer planes, and there are references throughout the supplemental books referring to githyanki, the Astral Plane/Ethereal Plane, the Inner Planes, etc. Instead, the philosophy (though not made into one of our core conceits, because it doesn't really describe the world itself much) is "the focus of Dark Sun should be on Athas." Athas is cool enough on its own to not need a bunch of planar stuff to make it interesting, so we tried to just let Athas be Athas. That doesn't mean that there is a complete lack of planar reference, but on the whole I'd say it's on about the same scale as the original boxed set, maybe slightly more but not even remotely as much as some of the later Dark Sun supplements. 

All that said, I think we've done some interesting things with the planes, and eladrin, that make them make sense in the context of the setting, and not take any of the focus off of Athas itself.

...and as soon as I post that, I see Rich blogged about eladrin of Athas.

So, here you go. Rich leaves out a few of the details (for example, in the DSCS we say something along the lines that the amount of Feywild left in existence could fit inside the walls of Tyr) and it's only one part of what we did with cosmology.


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## Wraith Form (Jun 11, 2010)

Thanks, Rodney!

That info (and link) helps!

Feel like spoiling any tiefling info?


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## I'm A Banana (Jun 11, 2010)

> Except the whole "planar isolation of Athas" is hugely overblown, especially in the context of the original setting.




I'm personally less interested in "remaining faithful" then in "being awesome." I don't have much use for historic purity or nostalgia, but awesome in any form is always welcome. The original had indisputable awesome in that brutal world. Isolation enhances that awesome. Low-level 2e didn't have blink elves, after all. And without traditional D&D magic, planehopping player characters weren't much of a concern. If you can run away to a better place by being a 1st level blink elf, it's not much of a Crapsack World, it's just a crapsack neighborhood. Which is nice and evocative, until you move out.

I mean, that's part of why "the gods are silent" has such potency for a player: you are alone, a happy afterlife does not await you, and there is no escape from the brutal world you were born into. That's what motivates you to do Heroic Things like kill sorcerer-kings. The planar isolation goes hand-in-hand with that, I feel. 

And, yeah, I'm a little disappointed about how the Feywild is a "magic desert," and the eladrin are basically psionic magicians instead of arcane magicians. For the first, I don't get why magic deserts have to be on an all-new plane (Athas can't have magic deserts without it being the Feywild? Isn't the whole setting basically a giant magical desert? Aren't all those mysterious places he mentioned as inspiration in the real-world deserts?), and for the second, it seems overly cosmetic (I am still a shiny spellcasting teleporting squishy elf, even if my damage + status effects have a slightly different name).

Not that I can't do what I want with the place, of course. And I certainly will, because this is hardly a deal-breaker.  Just that, for me, a game of heroic survival sort of requires a large amount of isolation to make the survival significant. Years of survival horror fiction would agree with me: it is important that the protagonists cannot reach the outside. Years of postapocalyptic fiction would also concur: it is important that, as far as the protagonists know, there is no escape from this brutal existence (save perhaps death or perhaps heroic change or, sometimes, one legendary Promised Land). 

And to that guy at my table who always plays Eladrin, I will say this: "Why do you play eladrin? What's your archetype here? Shiny, aloof, wise, nature-friendly, squishy mage? Try a Noble who is also a Preserver. Nature-mage? Have you given the Primal power-source a look? Wanna be Legolas? Try a standard Elf. Just love the mobility mechanics? I hear Thri-Kreen have an awesome jump ability. Just want the ability scores, act all superior, and hug trees? Heck, use the stats, I'm calling you a 'human,' and we're both happy. You're weird for a human, but whatever. "

I'd rather help them realize how their preferred character elements, whatever they really love about their blink elves, fits into Dark Sun without the need for world elements that I think disrupt the feel, like a Feywild, or a whole race of  squishy mages (not arcane mages, but still...).

It's kind of a downer for Dark Sun, but I can presumably ignore it there. It's kind of a bigger downer that even in a world that deliberately and gleefully violates all sorts of standard fantasy tropes, sacrificing sacred fantasy cows like there was a hamburger shortage, the team won't dare to put their own sacred cows on the butchering line. It makes me a little cautious of settings from WotC in general. If everything is just going to essentially look like the PHB with a fresh coat of paint, then it's not really delivering what I, as a *voracious* consumer of settings, am looking for: a unique play experience. Different adventures to go on. Different kinds of heroes to be. Different realities to understand. Different worlds to explore. If even a world without nature and magic needs a Feywild, for whatever reason (appeasing Eladrin fangirls, ensuring PHB compatibility, or just maintaining Brand Identity across settings), the chances of getting a setting that is compelling and unique enough to demand my attention (and, ultimately, purchase) appears to drop. 

At the moment, though, all I can really say is that Rich Baker's post about the Eladrin of Athas sounds like it takes a bit of the awesome of the setting and sells it up the river in an attempt to placate PHB purists. Which is a bit disappointing. Though not the end of the world.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 11, 2010)

Just a note, you might want to change the title of this thread- that's Dragon *#388 *you're linking to, not #338.


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## Jhaelen (Jun 11, 2010)

TarionzCousin said:


> It's going to be okay: Halflings are still cannibals.



OOOooohhh! I love this smiley!


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## MrMyth (Jun 11, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> At the moment, though, all I can really say is that Rich Baker's post about the Eladrin of Athas sounds like it takes a bit of the awesome of the setting and sells it up the river in an attempt to placate PHB purists. Which is a bit disappointing. Though not the end of the world.




I don't know - for me, it is exactly the sort of thing that gets me excited about the setting. Seeing the races turned on their head in a way that enhances the setting is a good thing. It isn't about remaining 'pure' with the PHB races, it is about remaining accessible - having someone familiar with them (as people were familiar with halflings and elves when Dark Sun first came out) able to enter the setting and see things they recognize. Except, of course, everything with a twist, that emphasizes the harsh brutality of the setting.


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## DarthMouth (Jun 11, 2010)

I LOVED the Baker text. Now wanted to see about Tieflings. Dont care if a race is in or out.. im just expecting the Dark Sun flavor in each one..


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## Obryn (Jun 11, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> It's kind of a bigger downer that even in a world that deliberately and gleefully violates all sorts of standard fantasy tropes, sacrificing sacred fantasy cows like there was a hamburger shortage, the team won't dare to put their own sacred cows on the butchering line. It makes me a little cautious of settings from WotC in general. If everything is just going to essentially look like the PHB with a fresh coat of paint, then it's not really delivering what I, as a *voracious* consumer of settings, am looking for: a unique play experience. Different adventures to go on. Different kinds of heroes to be. Different realities to understand. Different worlds to explore. If even a world without nature and magic needs a Feywild, for whatever reason (appeasing Eladrin fangirls, ensuring PHB compatibility, or just maintaining Brand Identity across settings), the chances of getting a setting that is compelling and unique enough to demand my attention (and, ultimately, purchase) appears to drop.



I didn't expect anything other than what I'm seeing so far.

Dark Sun 2e was a product of 2e.  It used the tropes of 2e fantasy, ran them through the post-apocalyptic meat-grinder, cut off the gods, and made clerics worship the elements.

Dark Sun 4e will be a product of 4e.  It will use the tropes of 4e fantasy, run them through the post-apocalyptic meat-grinder, cut off the gods, and actually ditch the divine classes entirely rather than just make them worship different stuff.

It's a reboot of the setting for 4e.  It's not a reboot of the setting for 2e.  Had Eladrin, Tieflings, and Dragonborn been core in those days, I'm fairly confident the original developers would have done similar things with those races as they did to halflings, elves, and dwarves.

-O


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## Kobold Avenger (Jun 11, 2010)

In my opinion, the whole Planar Isolation thing really only existed to keep crossovers from other settings out of Dark Sun.  

I know they can't cover ever race that appears, and some I see being easier to integrate than others.  Genasi probably being really easy to integrate, as their certainly was a bunch of interaction with the Elemental Planes back in 2e.  There's already Githyanki in DS as the "Gith" Marauders, it probably isn't much of a stretch for Githzerai to be around.  There's the mysterious all-female humanoid race the Villichi, who probably are Devas.  

What I guess will be harder is how to deal with Gnomes and Half-Orcs since they were wiped out by the Rajaat's Genocide in the settings history.  Or what to do if a player insists on playing a Divine character class.  But it seems like the setting has some pretty good suggestions on what a DM's to do in such cases.


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## I'm A Banana (Jun 11, 2010)

Obryn said:
			
		

> Dark Sun 2e was a product of 2e.
> ...
> Dark Sun 4e will be a product of 4e.




If being a product of 4e, for example, means cramming in the Feywild even when it might hurt the feel of the setting, then I think the priorities of the Campaign Setting line are skewed away from what I, as a big consumer of settings, am looking for. 

Not that every setting needs to do something new and fresh and shockingly different, just that a setting which, in part, thrives on the shockingly different, shouldn't be boringly the same. A setting's feel and special flavor is the reason I choose to play in it. If this is the limits of 4e's official creative power, then it's a little sad.

On the other hand, maybe something like _Gamma World_ would be what I wanted in a setting. Though GW seems to have onerous collectible elements, at its heart, it seems to take the 4e rules and jump into a different place with them. Which is probably more what I want out of a setting.

...and now part of me is wondering at a GW/Dark Sun mashup, and going fun places...


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## Obryn (Jun 11, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> If being a product of 4e, for example, means cramming in the Feywild even when it might hurt the feel of the setting, then I think the priorities of the Campaign Setting line are skewed away from what I, as a big consumer of settings, am looking for.



But what kind of Feywild is it?  That's a much better question than "Does it exist?"  I haven't seen anything yet that indicates it will hurt the feel of the setting.

If there's a magical land of faeries and unicorns romping through an enchanted forest just on the other side of a quick planar portal, I'll have a problem with it.  If the Feywild has been put through the Athasian post-apocalyptic meatgrinder, I'm good with it - so long as the things it adds to the setting are cool and interesting.



> Not that every setting needs to do something new and fresh and shockingly different, just that a setting which, in part, thrives on the shockingly different, shouldn't be boringly the same. A setting's feel and special flavor is the reason I choose to play in it. If this is the limits of 4e's official creative power, then it's a little sad.



Boringly the same would be using the Feywild as described in the Manual of the Planes, IMO.

-O

EDIT: As a quick note, it's always possible, of course, that the Feywild will end up adding nothing to the setting - indeed, being a big drag on it.  In that case, I can still go ahead with my plan to use the 2e box set for fluff and setting, and use the 4e books for crunch.  So far, though, I'm largely intrigued by the new and different stuff, and it isn't dampening my enthusiasm one bit.


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## Scribble (Jun 11, 2010)

Obryn said:


> If there's a magical land of faeries and unicorns romping through an enchanted forest just on the other side of a quick planar portal, I'll have a problem with it.  If the Feywild has been put through the Athasian post-apocalyptic meatgrinder, I'm good with it - so long as the things it adds to the setting are cool and interesting.




Based on Baker's post that's how it sounds... There's a Feywild sure- but it's a broken desert spirit world kind of.  It's still nature at it's most furious, but it's twisted and dying just like Athas.  

(In a way it sounds like if you consider the normal Feywild a beautiful dreamish counterpart to the real world, this would be a beautiful nightmare.)


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## I'm A Banana (Jun 11, 2010)

> But what kind of Feywild is it?




Sometimes, like in a setting where nature is twisted and magic is horrifying and you must scrape desperately to survive, the simple fact that there is a place of nature and magic that you can run away to, is enough to rip a hole in the setting's atmosphere (a different atmosphere being one of the big things that a setting gives me as a consumer). 

The question isn't "what kind of feywild is it?"

The question is: "Do we need the Feywild?"

Not every setting needs a feywild, or an astral sea, or any of these "cosmological constants." Not every setting needs dragonborn and tieflings. Settings can be different. That's half of their appeal. 



> so long as the things it adds to the setting are cool and interesting.




That's just it: it doesn't add much to the setting to have Eladrin or the Feywild there. The setting had magical deserts without 'em. The setting worked fine with their absence. And by their inclusion, the idea that you can bamf to the magic desert next door does (IMO) wound the setting in a pretty big way. And they're not even very cool and interesting (largely the same, but now with psionics instead of magic). 

If all it did was add something cool and interesting to the setting, I probably wouldn't have a problem with it. 

But it takes away much, without adding much.


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## Scribble (Jun 11, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> If all it did was add something cool and interesting to the setting, I probably wouldn't have a problem with it.
> 
> But it takes away much, without adding much.




Opinions is opinions I guess... 

What takes away from one man's idea of the setting adds a ton to another's.


But to sort of tie into what I feel Obryn is trying to say is it has the Feywilde because it's  asking what happens to the default world when it becomes Athas?   

And since the default 4e assumption is the world has a Feywild, part of the questions is "What happens to the Feywild?" The answer (or so it appears) is it becomes a twisted dying reflection of what it once was.

Simply saying "It doesn't exist" seems kind of shallow. Why not? Where did it go? Can we get it back? 

I suppose you could say it died off already, but in my opinion leaving it alive (but close to dead) leaves room for a whole lot more fun.

Can we save the Feywild? And possibly Athas? Can we at least help protect it? 

What benefit does killing it off entirely really serve?


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## Obryn (Jun 11, 2010)

Scribble said:


> But to sort of tie into what I feel Obryn is trying to say is it has the Feywilde because it's  asking what happens to the default world when it becomes Athas?
> 
> And since the default 4e assumption is the world has a Feywild, part of the questions is "What happens to the Feywild?" The answer (or so it appears) is it becomes a twisted dying reflection of what it once was.



Bingo.

I don't see much inherent value in freezing Dark Sun at the 2e stage.  Dark Sun was a product of 2e - so it took 2e's stuff and used it.  Paizo's semi-official re-interpretation under 3.5 used 3.5 stuff.  Dark Sun for 4e is just doing the same thing, but from a 4e starting point.

If all you want is new rules for the 2e setting, I'm sure the 4e book will be helpful mechanically.  But I didn't for a moment expect that the setting would be unchanged.

-O


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## RodneyThompson (Jun 11, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Sometimes, like in a setting where nature is twisted and magic is horrifying and you must scrape desperately to survive, the simple fact that there is a place of nature and magic that you can run away to, is enough to rip a hole in the setting's atmosphere (a different atmosphere being one of the big things that a setting gives me as a consumer).




I think that's a pretty big exaggeration. Having a few tiny pockets of magic desert scattered across the world is hardly what I'd call "a place of magic and nature that you can run away to."

I get the impression, KM, that you would be happy with nothing other than the total eradication of the Feywild and eladrin in Dark Sun. I guess I don't have anything to say that would make you feel better. 

Personally, I think that having defiling destroy 99.9% of an entire plane of existence, having the people of that plane becoming near-mythical anti-magic zealots, and having places in the desert where the vestiges of an ancient civilization periodically appear and disappear is perfectly in keeping with Dark Sun's motifs, and lead to some really great story possibilities in the Dark Sun milieu. For example:

The party joins up with an elf tribe to make the trip to a nearby city-state. During the journey, they discover that some of these elves aren't elves at all, but eladrin, and the party's Veiled Alliance member is a target for execution.

or

After their caravan is raided, the PCs stumble through the desert. Parched and dying, they come across the ruins of an ancient sand-blasted building where they take refuge and even delve into the ruins in search of treasure. After recovering, they depart, only to find that once a few hundred yards away from the ruins the entire structure has vanished.

or

A dune trader the PCs have worked with before returns to Nibenay to sell his goods, but the PCs notice that he is acting oddly. When one of Nibenay's templars approaches the dune trader for her normal bride, the dune trader attacks and slays her. The party discovers that the dune trader's mind was tinkered with by a powerful psion, turning him into an anti-spellcaster time bomb. To restore the dune trader's mind, they must find and slay this psion, whose tower only appears when you approach it from the west at sunset.


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## Phaezen (Jun 11, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Sometimes, like in a setting where nature is twisted and magic is horrifying and you must scrape desperately to survive, the simple fact that there is a place of nature and magic that you can run away to, is enough to rip a hole in the setting's atmosphere (a different atmosphere being one of the big things that a setting gives me as a consumer).
> 
> The question isn't "what kind of feywild is it?"
> 
> ...






			
				Rich Baker said:
			
		

> The first step in re-envisioning the eladrin was to think about their  homeland, the Feywild. Where do eladrin come from in Athas? We decided  that the answer was still the Feywild—but the Feywild isn’t what you  might expect. The Feywild is “nature turned up to 11.” In most worlds,  that means magical forests, wondrous glades, and so on. In Athas, that  means “magical desert.” Think of the mesalands around Sedona, the  Painted Desert, or the mysterious Rub’ al Khali of Arabia: A place where  humans aren’t meant to go, a place of the genies. The Feywild of Athas  is dying, however, and it no longer exists as a continuous, parallel  plane. It’s a few scattered pockets that don’t connect to each other;  journeying from one Feywild locale to another means returning to Athas  to make the trek.




I don't know what that takes away from Athas?  I think it adds to the setting quite nicely, reinforcing the dying nature of the world.


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## Henry (Jun 11, 2010)

I guess I don't have much to say, because Rich and Rodney have been resonating on all frequencies with me in regards to what's been posted so far. In the past couple of WotC columns, and in Rodney's statements in this interview, they may as well have been cribbing from some of my internet posts the last two years about Dark Sun.


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## Bold or Stupid (Jun 12, 2010)

This discusion of Feywild and Eladrin in Dark Sun is such a cool set of ideas, and close to what I and other were suggesting when this topic first arose, that I am now officially moving my Dark Sun interest level from "neh." to "hmm?". Maybe it reach "oooh!" if things keep seeming so cool.


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## Aristotle (Jun 12, 2010)

My first real campaign was set in Darksun. I was the 'darksun guy' in my town, and I loved every minute of it. That campaign is probably responsible for keeping me in this hobby all these years. I'll be getting this book, even though I've not been collecting 4e, for nostalgia... But it makes me just a little sad to see the setting I love so much finally released again during a time when the property is being handled by people with this horrible "everything that's core needs to fit in every setting" mentality.

I really don't care if the eladrin guy finds out there are no eladrin for him to play in this setting, because this setting is a different one. It's allowed to be different. It's allowed to exclude core elements and include radical new ones. That was half the point of Darksun for me. Take a chance and find a new favorite thing to play.

I don't doubt that the writing will be good, but I'm so frustrated by this design concept.


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## Obryn (Jun 12, 2010)

Aristotle said:


> it makes me just a little sad to see the setting I love so much finally released again during a time when the property is being handled by people with this horrible "everything that's core needs to fit in every setting" mentality



First off, I agree that Dark Sun should exclude some stuff.  And it has - the developers have already said there'll be no Divine power source.  No clerics, no paladins, no avengers, no invokers.  That's a _major _departure from 4e's core assumptions - much more radical than removing some races would be.



> It's allowed to be different. It's allowed to exclude core elements and include radical new ones. That was half the point of Darksun for me. Take a chance and find a new favorite thing to play.



Absolutely - but to me, Dark Sun wasn't defined by the fact that there were no gnomes.  It was defined by the twisted versions of the races we always knew.  Dune-running elves, beardless dwarves...  And the new ones, like the Thri-Kreen.  These Eladrin sound way different from average, every-day eladrin.  Heck; I think they'll be more useful to me in play.  The idea of roving bands of mage-killers is insanely setting-appropriate to me, regardless of what you want to call them. 

So from everything I've seen so far, it _is_ different.

-O


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## RodneyThompson (Jun 12, 2010)

Aristotle said:


> But it makes me just a little sad to see the setting I love so much finally released again during a time when the property is being handled by people with this horrible "everything that's core needs to fit in every setting" mentality.




Uh, I don't know if you've gotten to read some of those blog posts and articles, but we didn't take the "everything is core" philosophy with Dark Sun. There's a lot of stuff that we didn't specifically include--including many races, classes, etc. Before you write it off, take a look. I'm a huge Dark Sun fan, and I'd like to think we're making a version of Dark Sun for fans like me.


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## ProfessorCirno (Jun 12, 2010)

Perhaps I can encompass KB's problem in one quote.



> But we think it’s important for someone who’s new to the D&D game  with 4th Edition to find many/most of the things they regard as being in  the core of the D&D game in the Dark Sun setting.



While perhaps not the Eladrin themselves is the main problem, this part is.  Dark Sun is meant to be drastically and markably different from other settings.


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## lukelightning (Jun 12, 2010)

I think many of us view the feywild as a sort of mirror image of the prime material plane (yeah, I know they don't call it that any more... what is the name of the regular plane of existence now?); so it stands to reason that the feywild of Athas is like Athas, but even worse. Take all the dangers of a desert and add in dune hags, cyclops, fomorians, etc.

The eladrin, in my mind, would reflect this. I see them as desert fey... living secretly in the dunes, guarding places of fey power. They are a hidden, unknown threat; preferring to make people "disappear" rather than make open attacks on people violating their territory. The "special effect" of their feystep is they sink down into the sand and pop up out somewhere else.


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## MrMyth (Jun 12, 2010)

ProfessorCirno said:


> While perhaps not the Eladrin themselves is the main problem, this part is. Dark Sun is meant to be drastically and markably different from other settings.




Well, yes, but that differences is underscores by its familiarity. Having some small cannibals roaming the land isn't nearly as shocking as cannibal _halflings_. 

For a new player, who is familiar with the 4E concepts and races, being able to enter the setting and see the races he knows will make it more accessible to him - while at the same time, seeing how those races are twisted and changed, will really highlight that this isn't D&D as he knows it.

The original setting took the the races the players of the time were familiar with, and changed them into versions appropriate for Dark Sun. 4E is doing the same thing - how is that any different?

Finally, keep in mind that the original concept for Dark Sun was to have _only_ entirely new races, and no familiar ones at all. No elves, dwarves, halflings. But the Powers That Be said they needed to be included, and so we got the Dark Sun versions of them. 

So anyone who is complaining about dragonborn, eladrin, and tieflings in 4E Dark Sun - I assume you feel that the presence of elves, dwarves and halflings in the original Dark Sun was equally a travesty, and that those races and the reimagining of them brought nothing at all to the setting?

Right?


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## Mort_Q (Jun 12, 2010)

I'll be happy as long as leave out Drow.


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## lukelightning (Jun 12, 2010)

Mort_Q said:


> I'll be happy as long as leave out Drow.




What if drow were stuck being the main food source of cannibal halflings? Mmmmm, Drizz't MacNuggets!


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## Nahat Anoj (Jun 12, 2010)

MrMyth said:


> The original setting took the the races the players of the time were familiar with, and changed them into versions appropriate for Dark Sun. 4E is doing the same thing - how is that any different?



This.  IMO, what's iconic to Dark Sun isn't what races are in it so much as the process of twisting races to meet its own harsh and cruel assumptions.  Dark Sun is like asking the question "What if?" as opposed to the answers you get.


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## Wik (Jun 12, 2010)

MrMyth said:


> Well, yes, but that differences is underscores by its familiarity. Having some small cannibals roaming the land isn't nearly as shocking as cannibal _halflings_.
> 
> For a new player, who is familiar with the 4E concepts and races, being able to enter the setting and see the races he knows will make it more accessible to him - while at the same time, seeing how those races are twisted and changed, will really highlight that this isn't D&D as he knows it.
> 
> ...




For what it's worth, I probably would have loved that "original" dark sun even more.  A lot of those humanoid races in the Monster Manuals were pretty damned cool.  I mean, Jozhal?  Awesome.  Nikaal?  Awesomer.  Villichi?  Amazingly Awesome.  Ssurans?  Pretty good... except they sound like a Phil Collins song.  

***

For what it's worth, I'm with KM on this one.  I'm not worried too much about reimaginings, but there are problems that can arise when one tries to mesh planes into the setting.  The Feywild, simply through it's existence, is taking away from what should be one of the core conceits of the setting - that Athas is the focal point.  There are no places - better OR worse - that you can hide away to.  You are born on Athas, and you will die on athas... you will never leave.

It goes back to the source material (a combo of post apocalyptic literature inspired by the cold war and sword and sorcery in the likes of "Zothique").  There are no other planes.  There is only here.  And here is dying.

I'm not as drastic about the situation as KM is, though.  I know there will be elements I hate - like Blink Elves and Tieflings.  They will be dropped from my game.  I'm already working on my own house rules for Dark Sun (many of which are changes I want to make to fix my quibbles with 4e).  Really, all I expect from the new setting are some good monsters, at least a few mechanics worth stealing, and the like.  

I do find it a bit disconcerting that all of the designers for the setting, when all is said and done, are basically saying this:  "I'm a HUGE fan of the setting!  Super huge!  Love it to pieces!  Now, look at all the changes we're making, to fit it into the 4e rules...."


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## Zaukrie (Jun 12, 2010)

I can't wait for this book. I loved the first iteration, and this one sounds well designed to me. The aversion to change in our society is mind boggling. It's how many years, and how many editions of the game later? Of course some things will be different. The beauty of this game is that you really do get to choose the rules and fluff you want to use. Is there any game in anyone's home that is run straight by the book (for those who have played for years and years)? I don't think I've ever been accused of being a fanboy, I can be highly critical of particular decisions. But, overall, I'm thrilled that we are getting an updated version of Darksun, making it about 1000x times easier for me to play in it again. I guess I'm just really glass 3/4 full on this concept.


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## Obryn (Jun 12, 2010)

Wik said:


> I do find it a bit disconcerting that all of the designers for the setting, when all is said and done, are basically saying this:  "I'm a HUGE fan of the setting!  Super huge!  Love it to pieces!  Now, look at all the changes we're making, to fit it into the 4e rules...."



So the proper actions of a fan releasing a version of an old setting for a new edition should be ... what?  To simply re-release it verbatim with a few mechanical changes?

-O


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## Greg K (Jun 12, 2010)

Obryn said:


> So the proper actions of a fan releasing a version of an old setting for a new edition should be ... what?  To simply re-release it verbatim with a few mechanical changes?
> 
> -O




If fan is the company producing the official version?  In my opinion, yes.  Then, I am with KM and Aristotle on this one.


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## Wik (Jun 12, 2010)

Obryn said:


> So the proper actions of a fan releasing a version of an old setting for a new edition should be ... what?  To simply re-release it verbatim with a few mechanical changes?
> 
> -O




No.  But change just to satisfy your internal designer itch isn't a good thing, either.  If you say you're a "fan" of something, it suggests that you're confident of the initial product's strengths.  Saying you're a fan and then changing some of the conceits of the setting (and the feywild does, at least in my opinion, go against one of the implied conceits of the original setting) is not a good sign.

It's a lot like saying "hey, I'm a fan of the Karate Kid movies.  I'm going to rerelease a karate kid movie!  Only in my movie, we'll make the kid street smart and black - because that tracks well with audiences these days.  And we'll set the story in China instead of the United States, because a martial arts competition makes more sense there.  And we'll put Jackie Chan in as the martial arts instructor, because..."

There comes a point where you're not redesigning or polishing off some of the flaws of the original product, but are instead offering a "reimagining".

For the record, if WotC had said "hey, we're going to release a new setting that's kind of similar to the old Dark Sun setting" I'd be all over it.  That'd be amazing.

But to say something is Dark Sun, that you're a huge fan of it, and then, in every blog update or post you make on the setting, you talk about how you're fixing some old "problem" that came up in the game, well, that comes off as being a bit iffy to me.


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## RodneyThompson (Jun 12, 2010)

Wik said:


> No.  But change just to satisfy your internal designer itch isn't a good thing, either.  If you say you're a "fan" of something, it suggests that you're confident of the initial product's strengths.  Saying you're a fan and then changing some of the conceits of the setting (and the feywild does, at least in my opinion, go against one of the implied conceits of the original setting) is not a good sign.




I guess I am having a hard time seeing how the merest existence of a Feywild that is a) just as much a harsh desert as Athas is, b) is 99.9% destroyed, and c) only included for use if the DM wants to goes against the core conceits of the setting. Look, the original version of Dark Sun had the planes in it! It's not like having the planes in Dark Sun is any different than the original boxed set. We go to all the same trouble of limiting planar travel, as well--planar travel rituals are restricted, and the Gray acts as a barrier between Athas and the Astral Sea. 

If you guys want to get all up on me for saying I'm a fan in a post, fine. I'll stop saying that. I have simply felt that Rich and I and the other designers have put a lot of time, effort, thought and love into coming up with the 4th Edition version of Dark Sun. Not to mention that people keep changing the goalposts; as soon as I point out that Athas wasn't cut off from the planes in the original boxed set, I get told that adherence to the strict version of 2E isn't as important as adhering to what Dark Sun could have been. Then hot on the heels of that post is someone saying that ONLY adherence to the strict details of the 2E version proves that you have confidence in the core conceits of the setting. I know that's two different people arguing the point, but when I respond to one person I get someone else saying, "See, this proves the designers are messing up the setting."

If some of the details are different, it's only because Dungeons & Dragons itself is different than it was 20 years ago, but at the same time I feel like we've been striving to provide a version of Dark Sun that stays true to all the things that made Dark Sun great.


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## vagabundo (Jun 12, 2010)

I don't see the point in just re-releasing Dark Sun, the 2e version will always exist if people prefer it.


However any changes should add to the setting; and I think they have given Eladrin a strong theme in Dark Sun and it would be a shame to exclude them just because they weren't in the original setting.

The new Feywild is giving me some great story ideas.



Pbartender said:


> One sorcerer-king has apparently found a way to siphon arcane energy off the remnants of the feywild, hastening its decline.  The other sorcerer-kings rush to steel the secret from him, before he gains too much power over them.
> 
> In retaliation, the eladrin begin methodically, mercilessly and indiscriminately hunting down and assassinating any and all (what few there are) arcane spellcasters.
> 
> The PCs are caught in the middle.




I stole this awesome story hook from the Dark Sun plot thread.


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## Obryn (Jun 12, 2010)

Greg K said:


> If fan is the company producing the official version?  In my opinion, yes.  Then, I am with KM and Aristotle on this one.



Wow.



			
				Wik said:
			
		

> No. But change just to satisfy your internal designer itch isn't a good thing, either. If you say you're a "fan" of something, it suggests that you're confident of the initial product's strengths. Saying you're a fan and then changing some of the conceits of the setting (and the feywild does, at least in my opinion, go against one of the implied conceits of the original setting) is not a good sign.



So where's your litmus test here?  How can you determine when someone's making a change for their "internal designer itch" as opposed to trying to add to the setting?  Is it as simple as, "Anything that's in the 4e core setting that wasn't in the 2e implied core setting"?

I think this new Dark Sun Feywild stuff sounds pretty amazing.  If I think it adds to the setting, am I no longer confident of the original product's strengths?  Am I no longer a true fan of Dark Sun?

-O


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## Wik (Jun 12, 2010)

Moridin said:


> I guess I am having a hard time seeing how the merest existence of a Feywild that is a) just as much a harsh desert as Athas is, b) is 99.9% destroyed, and c) only included for use if the DM wants to goes against the core conceits of the setting. Look, the original version of Dark Sun had the planes in it! It's not like having the planes in Dark Sun is any different than the original boxed set. We go to all the same trouble of limiting planar travel, as well--planar travel rituals are restricted, and the Gray acts as a barrier between Athas and the Astral Sea.




Yyup.  And I hated the references to the planes there, too.  I think they were added for the same reason the setting had the PHB races - the powers that be wanted a connection to other systems.  You'll note that the planes did get phased out later on, giving athas its own cosmology of sorts.  

I don't like the 99.9% destroyed feywild.  If it's so destroyed, why include it at all?  Because you need to have a justification for some of the 4eisms.  But why include those at all?  Because (and this is Rich's own words) you want to satisfy those who "always play Eladrin".  

Fair enough.  But no, I don't like.  But easy to fix - it won't be in my game.



> If you guys want to get all up on me for saying I'm a fan in a post, fine. I'll stop saying that. I have simply felt that Rich and I and the other designers have put a lot of time, effort, thought and love into coming up with the 4th Edition version of Dark Sun.




And I'm sorry if I came across as being rude.  Trust me, I'm very happy you guys are putting this out - and my players will tell you that I've been singing your praises.  95% of what you are releasing is amazing, from what I've seen - but there are things I don't like.  And yes, I'd much rather have a fan working on the system than a guy who does it as his "job".  

This being the internet, and us being humans, we tend to pick on the negative, rather than focus on the positives.  And I apologize for that.



> Not to mention that people keep changing the goalposts; as soon as I point out that Athas wasn't cut off from the planes in the original boxed set, I get told that adherence to the strict version of 2E isn't as important as adhering to what Dark Sun could have been. Then hot on the heels of that post is someone saying that ONLY adherence to the strict details of the 2E version proves that you have confidence in the core conceits of the setting. I know that's two different people arguing the point, but when I respond to one person I get someone else saying, "See, this proves the designers are messing up the setting."




Yup.  It's kind of a catch 22.  And no matter what you do, people will hate on it.  

My question here is this:  why did 4e Dark Sun need a feywild?  Or planes?  Or tieflings?  What I was trying to say earlier (and failed at) is this perspective:

1)  Designer is a fan of the setting.  Presumably, he is a fan of the setting for its strengths.  If said designer is playing dark sun instead of planescape, we can assume he's not playing it for the planar quirks, or whatever else.  
2)  Designer gets assigned to work on the new 4e Dark Sun setting.  
3)  Designer uses all his public service announcements about the changes being made to the setting, using a "we need to fix this" or "how to implement 4e into this design" and then wonders why some fans fly into nerd rage.  

By the way, I'm not saying I wouldn't make changes were I in your shoes.  They'd just be different changes, that would be just as likely to alienate and anger some old school fans out there.  (I'd tweak magic items, which I think you guys did too.  I'd hint at city-states beyond the Tyr Region.  I'd change magic around.  I'd downplay the psionics.  I'd make Templars powered by the Divine Power source.  I'd keep random wild talents.  And so on).  



> If some of the details are different, it's only because Dungeons & Dragons itself is different than it was 20 years ago, but at the same time I feel like we've been striving to provide a version of Dark Sun that stays true to all the things that made Dark Sun great.




And I really, REALLY hope you succeed.  I'm pretty sure you guys will, though those Athas Desert Tiles make me nervous, what with all the water.   

Go nuts with the feywild, Eladrin, Tieflings, and all that stuff.  I'll throw them right back out.  But when you do introduce stuff I like (Dragonborn, for example, seem really cool) I'll keep them and sing your praises.  I'm not expecting a verbatim copy of 2e - I'd actually complain if that happened, too!  

What I am expecting is to have the new additions to be well thought out, valid, and to be something that reinforces the nature of athas.  A magical desert that is just "the normal desert trumped to 11" does not do it to me.  Because the desert already should be at 11.

Essentially, saying "the feywild is like a worse place than the current land" is bad beans - because Athas should be hell to begin with.  And to make it a better place goes against that, too - because then everyone would want to go there, danger or no.  So what's the point of it being there?


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## Wik (Jun 12, 2010)

Obryn said:


> So where's your litmus test here?  How can you determine when someone's making a change for their "internal designer itch" as opposed to trying to add to the setting?  Is it as simple as, "Anything that's in the 4e core setting that wasn't in the 2e implied core setting"?
> 
> I think this new Dark Sun Feywild stuff sounds pretty amazing.  If I think it adds to the setting, am I no longer confident of the original product's strengths?  Am I no longer a true fan of Dark Sun?
> 
> -O




Good question.

First off, there are new additions I like.  Dragonborn, for example.  Those were well tied into the setting, and add to the setting's flavour.  "Blink Elves", in my mind, do not - especially when tied to a Feywild.

So what's the litmus test?  

The new design must be tied into the setting's themes and traits.  It is not just added as a shortcut for design purposes.  It must significantly add something to the gameplay experience for it to be there, to counteract the "nerd rage" that accompanies a change in an established setting.  The situation must be able to be visualized by a casual player as belonging in that setting.

Using that, the athasian feywild does hit the first part (it is about apocalypse, survival, and all that).  It does seem to be added as a shortcut, to explain why Eladrin exist and why many "feywild" powers are still around, but I'll leave this as a wash because it's not worth arguing about in this thread.  Whether or not it adds something to the gameplay experience is debateable - I'd say it's not, because the designers, after adding it, went through the trouble of explaining why it's scattered and "99.9% gone".  And I know I for one am having a hard time visualizing how a feywild "magical desert" is any different than an athasian one, or why that should be the case.  

as for the whole "true fan" stuff, let's not do that.  I haven't accused anyone of badwrongfun, or anything like that.  Everyone's entitled to their opinions - I'm just not happy that precious page count is going to be devoted to something I'll most likely drop.


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## ProfessorCirno (Jun 12, 2010)

People are being really nitpicky here, so lets cut to the bone - the problem isn't with Eladrin themselves, the problem is in the design that dictates Eladrin need to be added in some way, and that the Feywilde needs to be added in because of it.


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## Squizzle (Jun 12, 2010)

[No message]


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## Obryn (Jun 12, 2010)

ProfessorCirno said:


> People are being really nitpicky here, so lets cut to the bone - the problem isn't with Eladrin themselves, the problem is in the design that dictates Eladrin need to be added in some way, and that the Feywilde needs to be added in because of it.



Would that be the same design that dictates that clerics, paladins, invokers, and avengers need to be added in some way?

owait...

-O


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## SPECTRE666 (Jun 13, 2010)

Would the Shadowfell be a Desert of Night?


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## Wik (Jun 13, 2010)

Obryn said:


> Would that be the same design that dictates that clerics, paladins, invokers, and avengers need to be added in some way?
> 
> owait...
> 
> -O





Here is kind of a good point.  The designers did a good thing by cutting out the power source - in fact, I'm amazed they did it.  It was a great step, and was a bigger step than I thought they'd take.  Kudos to them for doing it.

That being said, read what Rich Baker had to say, here:



			
				rich baker's blog said:
			
		

> Now, some of you Dark Sun purists might be inclined to say “High elves don’t have any place in my Athas!” But we think it’s important for someone who’s new to the D&D game with 4th Edition to find many/most of the things they regard as being in the core of the D&D game in the Dark Sun setting. If someone out there is a huge eladrin fan – you know, the guy or gal at the table who *always* plays an eladrin – we don’t want to give him or her a reason not to give Dark Sun a try. So that means we’d want to find a place for the eladrin to appear in Dark Sun.




So, it's important for someone that's new to the game to have Eladrin, so we need to fit them in somehow.  But to hell with the people that like playing the Divine Classes... god knows there's no one out there who *always* plays a Paladin, right?  

What about the people who always play a tiefling?  Or the people that always play a half-orc?  Should those be accomodated?  I hope not.  Because it leads to the "kitchen sink syndrome", which I think is universally decried to be a "bad thing" when it comes to Dark Sun.  

My two cents?  WotC knows that the Feywild sells.  It's an interesting new 4eism, and it generally works.  My current campaign is set in the feywild, and I do like it.  And I know a lot of 4ers like it, too.  I believe there's talk of a feywild planar book coming out, too, right?  Not to mention a lot of fey-themed monsters out there.  Putting in a feywild helps GMs access that material.

Which makes me wonder - and this is an honest question here, no snark or anything intended - why is it okay to say "these races do not exist, or if they do, it's in tiny amounts" for most of the races/classes that shouldn't be in Dark Sun... but they have to shoehorn in Eladrin and the Feywild?

Why can't they just throw in a sidebar explaining this, rather than trying to tie it all into the core setting? 

Seriously - what does the feywild ADD to the setting?  Especially when everyone is making a point of saying it only exists in a small amount?  The way I see it, when someone says "hey, it's barely in existence on Athas!" I hear "We had to find a way to put it in, but we kind of think maybe it'll annoy the purists a bit too much, so we deliberately gimped it and pushed it off to the side".  

Again, though, it's all academic to me.  I'm buying my Dark Sun book the day it comes out.  I've been planning my campaign for a year.  The guys at WotC are doing great work, and I'm sure it's going to be a perfectly fine product.  I just personally believe they made two poorly thought out design decisions that I will not be using in my own game.

Let it be said now, though, that if the one Dark Sun adventure that gets released prominently features an Athasian feywild, I may have to go on strike.


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## Obryn (Jun 13, 2010)

Wik said:


> Seriously - what does the feywild ADD to the setting?  Especially when everyone is making a point of saying it only exists in a small amount?  The way I see it, when someone says "hey, it's barely in existence on Athas!" I hear "We had to find a way to put it in, but we kind of think maybe it'll annoy the purists a bit too much, so we deliberately gimped it and pushed it off to the side".



I have rather the opposite reaction.  I look at it as: This is a 4e version of Dark Sun, so we're starting with the assumption that Green Athas was basically a 4e setting, rather than a 2e setting.  As such, the Feywild existed.  What happened to it?  Is it still there?  Is there a way to make it cool and interesting, while keeping true to the basic ideas of Dark Sun?

If you start from this world-building perspective, rather than from the assumption that 4e designers must "shoehorn" in 4e concepts... having Eladrin and the Feywild, but no Divine classes, makes perfect sense.

-O


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## Wik (Jun 13, 2010)

Obryn said:


> I have rather the opposite reaction.  I look at it as: This is a 4e version of Dark Sun, so we're starting with the assumption that Green Athas was basically a 4e setting, rather than a 2e setting.  As such, the Feywild existed.  What happened to it?  Is it still there?  Is there a way to make it cool and interesting, while keeping true to the basic ideas of Dark Sun?
> 
> If you start from this world-building perspective, rather than from the assumption that 4e designers must "shoehorn" in 4e concepts... having Eladrin and the Feywild, but no Divine classes, makes perfect sense.
> 
> -O





That would be the crux of where we differ, then.  I'm seeing it as an adaptation of a 2e setting into 4e rules, with 4eisms added on for marketing purposes.  So, we're coming at it from different perspectives.  Fair enough.

Still, I'd like to think that if Dark Sun had never been released, and that this was the first time Athas had ever seen the light of day, I'd still look at the feywild and say "why does this need to be here?"  

To be honest, though, I probably wouldn't.  So, fair enough. 

But I really don't see the point of a feywild on Athas.  "Desert cranked to 11" implies that the Athasian deserts are NOT the worst place to be.  "Super Magical Desert" implies that it is a more serene place, which also doesn't work.  Which basically means Athasian Desert = Feywild Desert... in which case, why include the latter at all?


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## Ahnirades (Jun 13, 2010)

Wik said:


> But I really don't see the point of a feywild on Athas. "Desert cranked to 11" implies that the Athasian deserts are NOT the worst place to be. "Super Magical Desert" implies that it is a more serene place, which also doesn't work. Which basically means Athasian Desert = Feywild Desert... in which case, why include the latter at all?




Magical doesn't necessarily mean serene. 

As a theoretical example of difference, the Athasian Feywild might be the place where mirages become real, and hunger for those who behold them.


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## Wik (Jun 13, 2010)

Ahnirades said:


> Magical doesn't necessarily mean serene.
> 
> As a theoretical example of difference, the Athasian Feywild might be the place where mirages become real, and hunger for those who behold them.




I understand that.  

However, both of those examples do not scream "athas" to me.  They scream "ravenloft".  And yes, they're cool ideas, I'm not faulting you that.  But they would break the "feel" of the setting were I to present them at my table.  

Athas is a place where the natural world has been corrupted, and is now dying.  It is not a place where the are magical analogs - anything of the sort simply dilutes the fact that it is a dying realm, but it's the only realm you got.

For what it's worth, there is only one "plane" in any Athas I've ever run - a hodgepodge of the ethereal and the place where psionic combat takes place.  A sort of shadow realm.  And it's only really reached through your psyche - there are no physical forms there.  It was thrown in simply to allow many D&D spells to make sense.... in 4e, where that requirement no longer applies, I'll be dropping it.


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## I'm A Banana (Jun 13, 2010)

Moridin said:


> I think that's a pretty big exaggeration. Having a few tiny pockets of magic desert scattered across the world is hardly what I'd call "a place of magic and nature that you can run away to."




I think there's a large distance between "magic desert scattered across the world" and "Feywild."

The first is part and parcel of Athas, a place any PC or NPC can wander into. It's like the mythic deserts that Rich cited on the blog. Those are cool and deserve to be part of a "desert world" setting. 

The second is a magical place that PC creatures move in and out of basically whenever they need to. 

The first is a place of mystery and adventure that can be right next door. As in "the magic desert is a day's travel away and lies between us and the nearest city-state."

The second is a sidebar world, and a known quantity, a tool the PC's use.

The first reaction many players have to Athas is "how do I escape this brooding land of doom?" If some shiny guy in our party can do it every 5 minutes or so, it implies that it can't be really _that_ hard, and then the game becomes about finding and running away to the place that is Not Athas, rather than on dealing with the troubles of Athas itself. It's not about Dark Sun anymore. It's about the Feywild. And I can do that adventure in any campaign. 

That's an effect, created at the table, by players themselves, in the course of play. It's not just an academic distinction between "loyalty to the 2e set" and "fresh new 4e toys." It's a problem with how the setting behaves. 



			
				Moridin said:
			
		

> I get the impression, KM, that you would be happy with nothing other than the total eradication of the Feywild and eladrin in Dark Sun. I guess I don't have anything to say that would make you feel better.




I'm sorry if I gave that impression. That's not really accurate. 

I could have been OK with an Eladrin race, really. Back in an earlier thread talking about this, I speculated that an Eladrin without the Feywild on Dark Sun might look something like a PC-version Bralani (refluff planar teleport into a whirlwind of sand -- done! Heck, the shardminds are halfway there already!) and be totally cool. There's certainly other ways you could've gone too (maybe they become more Primal-oriented to protect their homes after the world started collapsing; perhaps they are Preservers who master illusion rituals to protect their cities from the sorcerer-kings with mirages; whatever). Some solutions might've involved swapping out a racial power or something, but cross-planar teleportation is fairly inappropriate for Athas, in my book. 

That's because adding the Planes to Athas is something that is more problematic for me, and the Feywild specifically seems redundant at best. It ruins the isolation that makes the place special and dangerous. Escaping the world for another one is unsatisfying when I've chosen to play in a given world. I've described why that is quite a bit by this point.

The only thing I can do now is understand why it was _so important_ to have these things, and to have them be like this. What would the setting be missing, if they weren't there, in this way? Why was it OK to boot out Bane and Pelor and Tiamat, but it was important to preserve the Feywild? The reasoning that you guys wanted to cleave fairly close to the 4e PH is a little unsatisfying, since part of what I, at least, want in a new setting, is something that is *non-standard*, and also that the Feywild isn't (or shouldn't be) an inextricable part of the rules of the game. Nothing about the Eladrin demands a Feywild. And being non-standard isn't something that I would expect from Eberron or Forgotten Realms, which are pretty inclusive by definition (and pretty cool because of that inclusion!) but it is absolutely something I would expect from Dark Sun, which is made cool, in part, by its exclusion. 

And perhaps, in turn, I can help you understand why cosmology is kind of a big deal in settings, at least for me. 

It's not about excluding anything, per se. It's about the effects that including certain things has on the emotion I'm trying to get out of players at the table. 



			
				Moridin said:
			
		

> Personally, I think that having defiling destroy 99.9% of an entire plane of existence, having the people of that plane becoming near-mythical anti-magic zealots, and having places in the desert where the vestiges of an ancient civilization periodically appear and disappear is perfectly in keeping with Dark Sun's motifs, and lead to some really great story possibilities in the Dark Sun milieu. For example:
> 
> The party joins up with an elf tribe to make the trip to a nearby city-state. During the journey, they discover that some of these elves aren't elves at all, but eladrin, and the party's Veiled Alliance member is a target for execution.




This plot is entirely possible and likely without the Feywild, and without wizard-hating Eladrin. Largely because _no one_ really likes the Veiled Alliance, and that member could be targeted for execution by any number of, heck, _normal elves_. 



			
				Moridin said:
			
		

> After their caravan is raided, the PCs stumble through the desert. Parched and dying, they come across the ruins of an ancient sand-blasted building where they take refuge and even delve into the ruins in search of treasure. After recovering, they depart, only to find that once a few hundred yards away from the ruins the entire structure has vanished.




This doesn't require another plane of existence. It maybe requires an epic-level _conceal city_ ritual or something, if you want to get mechanical about it. Which fits in with the idea of Preserver eladrin who are going into hiding.



			
				Moridin said:
			
		

> A dune trader the PCs have worked with before returns to Nibenay to sell his goods, but the PCs notice that he is acting oddly. When one of Nibenay's templars approaches the dune trader for her normal bride, the dune trader attacks and slays her. The party discovers that the dune trader's mind was tinkered with by a powerful psion, turning him into an anti-spellcaster time bomb. To restore the dune trader's mind, they must find and slay this psion, whose tower only appears when you approach it from the west at sunset.




This goes in hand with the first thing: you don't need Eladrin or the Feywild to have wizard-hating enemies in Dark Sun. Pretty much anything will fit that niche.

And, to show that my ideas are meant to be constructive criticism, here's some adventures they could construct:


*Defiling to Preserve* [Paragon Tier]: An area of desert is only marked on maps with a skull and crossbones. The PC's are forced to explore the region when a young Noble man goes missing, and the city-state is put under a draconian crack-down. Returning the son of this powerful noble will ease the pressures on the city. The PC's discover that the son ran away into the unmarked area of desert seemingly following elven rumors of an astoundingly beautiful princess. The trail disappears in an otherwise empty region of the desert, but with a Skill Challenge, the party can discover a persistent, and slowly-widening, aura of defilement, as well as an opening simply in the air around them, revealing an opulent palace and verdant grounds, with copious green plants, and flowing water from fountains. This place of unparalleled beauty is, as the party can notice, an illusion, maintained by that widening aura of defiling magic. In the palace, they find the noble's son, and the lone "princess," a near-immortal eladrin Queen who resorted to defiling magic to protect her castle millennia ago, when the Feywild was being destroyed. She is living a persistent lie, half-insane, and the noble, smitten with her enchantment rituals, has largely become enslaved to her, unaware of the low-key defiling happening to his body as he lays with her. If the PC's can throw some harsh reality into this persistent fantasy, they can perhaps save the noble's son, though they will also be responsible for destroying a place of true beauty by slaying the Queen and her guards. This may leave them questioning the lengths they would go to themselves, to have what they took from the Queen. 
*Ashes, Ashes, We All Fall Down*: The Eladrin city of Balvinir has fallen. The guild of preservers that sustained the city's illusory walls was weakened when one died, after hundreds of thousands of years, making it impossible to maintain the rituals that hid the city from the Sorcerer-Kings in the region. Now, their armies attack, in concert, this lovely, but tragic, place, which has suddenly become exposed. The Eladrin are determined to fight to the last of them, but the PC's might be able to save a few, by fighting against the Sorcerer-Kings themselves, by amassing armies of those opposed, by playing off the always-suspicious Kings against each other, or by finding a preserver to take the dead one's place, restoring the protections on the city, at least for now. Of course, they're likely to make new enemies from this. And the party may decide not to help the Eladrin at all, to simply profit themselves off of this dying civilization. The Eladrin may not be so pure, after all, either: part of their final appearance involves a massive, desperate, suicide assault on one particular city-state (perhaps that of the PC's, or their allies). Heedless of the destruction they cause in their wake, the eladrin are mad with mourning.
*City of the Wind*: Eladrin on Athas are known to be connected to the new natural order: harsh and unforgiving, largely avatars of flaying sand-storms and brutal solar light. People live in fear of their horrible natural powers, wielded personally and intelligently, rather than the mere callous destruction the natural world generally turns on the people here. Thus, the appearance of the migratory, mobile, City of the Wind on the horizon, has the people in this city-state terrified. They have no love for their sorcerer-king, but they do love their lives, and as the sandstorms begin to give way to static-electicity thunder, and alternate with searing drought and blistering solar light, the people here become panicked. Which is entirely in the favor of the current Sorcerer-King. Using the fear of the populace to usher in an age of human sacrifice, the sorcerer-king wages war against his enemies, using the City of the Wind as a buffer. In the chaos, the PC's can stop the sacrifices, save the city from both natural disasters, and Sorcerer-King made disasters, and perhaps even liberate the town. Or, they could all be buried beneath enemy armies and natural disasters both. The choice is largely up to the party: what they fight, who they irk, and who they make peace with.

Which is just a sampling of the different ways Eladrin could have been used, without involving the Feywild as a "plane of existence" that PC's can flee to, to get away from Athas's suffering. 

Gotta go rock-climbing with the girl now, but we can hash this out more later, if you'd like to maybe try for some mutual understanding.


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## The Little Raven (Jun 13, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Which is just a sampling of the different ways Eladrin could have been used, without involving the Feywild as a "plane of existence" that PC's can flee to, to get away from Athas's suffering.




You _can't_ flee to the Feywild to get away from Athas' suffering. Why? It's the mortal world dialed up to 11... and the mortal world is dying. That means that the remnants of the Feywild (since, as stated, 99.9% of it has been destroyed by defiling, until only small pockets remain) are dying too... and if its death throes are turned up to 11, that doesn't sound like a shiny, happy place to go and hide out. That sounds like a deathtrap that would hypnotize you while draining the vital essence from your body.


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## Wik (Jun 13, 2010)

The Little Raven said:


> You _can't_ flee to the Feywild to get away from Athas' suffering. Why? It's the mortal world dialed up to 11... and the mortal world is dying. That means that the remnants of the Feywild (since, as stated, 99.9% of it has been destroyed by defiling, until only small pockets remain) are dying too... and if its death throes are turned up to 11, that doesn't sound like a shiny, happy place to go and hide out. That sounds like a deathtrap that would hypnotize you while draining the vital essence from your body.




Except, "The mortal world dialed to 11" is not a good thing in Dark Sun.

To say "The Feywild is an even more deadly and dangerous place than the deserts of athas" is essentially saying "hey, the deserts of athas aren't all that bad".  It sets up a precedent in the game, that the wilderness is not the worst place to be - there are worse places.

plus, there are plenty of places in athas that "hypnotize you and drain you of your vital essences".  There are also pools that suck the moisture from your skin, psionic beings that make you kill all your friends and then go for a silt bath, and so on and so forth.  

Dialling those real-world critters "up to 11" kind of belittles their own creepiness, right?  What's the point of the real world if everything in the feywild is bigger and stronger?  What winds up happening then goes something like this:

Heroic Tier:  PCs explore the athasian deserts.
Paragon:  The GM realizes many of the tough monsters are feywild critters.  PCs move to the Dark Sun Feywild.
Epic:  PCs fully explore the feywild, and then go back to the material plane, which they have had little contact with.  The campaign makes little sense now, so the game dissolves.  This causes frustration in the players, who eventually relieve that frustration by killing everyone at a local sunday school.

Now, you for one may be up for flagrant baby-killing, but I happen to have morals.  And I will not stand by and listen as you preach mass infanticide. 

Or something.

On a more serious note, the feywild can be cool.  But it does not fit in with the athasian philosophy.  KM makes many very good points on why that is.  Now, both of us have not said "OMG I HAET DARK SUN NOW! FLAME FLAME FLAME!" or anything like that.  But we have expressed some concerns that that original statement of "we're not just going to do a kitchen sink!" is not being adhered to.  Because there is a sense that some designers are trying to find some way to shoehorn in something that does not fit, because they feel it has to be there for some reason.


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## keterys (Jun 13, 2010)

Wik/Kamikaze, the feywild you seem to be assuming is at odds with the description we were given. Ie, that there are small spots on the map - not connected to each other - that touch the athasian feywild. 

There's no ability to go into the feywild for a tier. It's not a plane. It's a single tower here, a single oasis there, etc.

There's a very big difference in flavor between - "Here's the Athasian version of a race" and "The gods are dead. Divine power source isn't available*. If they seem equivalent to you, then I suspect it might be built more on a dislike for one or more specific races.

I mean - is it more a dislike of Fey Step? ("blink elves" sounds pretty loaded, Kamikaze...)

* with implicit "but check out this psionic one that people have turned towards instead"


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## Obryn (Jun 13, 2010)

Wik said:


> But I really don't see the point of a feywild on Athas.  "Desert cranked to 11" implies that the Athasian deserts are NOT the worst place to be.  "Super Magical Desert" implies that it is a more serene place, which also doesn't work.  Which basically means Athasian Desert = Feywild Desert... in which case, why include the latter at all?



I dunno yet.  But from what I've seen, I think it could be an excellent addition.

Which is why I'm going to wait until the book is actually released and we have actual, substantive information on the role of the feywild.



Kamikaze Midget said:


> I think there's a large distance between "magic desert scattered across the world" and "Feywild."
> 
> The first is part and parcel of Athas, a place any PC or NPC can wander into. It's like the mythic deserts that Rich cited on the blog. Those are cool and deserve to be part of a "desert world" setting.
> 
> ...



What makes you think it's going to be any of those things?  A sidebar world, a known quantity, usable by the PCs, and available for escape from Athas?

-O


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## The Little Raven (Jun 13, 2010)

Wik said:


> Heroic Tier:  PCs explore the athasian deserts.
> Paragon:  The GM realizes many of the tough monsters are feywild critters.  PCs move to the Dark Sun Feywild.
> Epic:  PCs fully explore the feywild, and then go back to the material plane, which they have had little contact with.  The campaign makes little sense now, so the game dissolves.  This causes frustration in the players, who eventually relieve that frustration by killing everyone at a local sunday school.




If 99.9% of the Feywild is gone, and the remnants are scattered in different areas of the world, it doesn't sound at all like you can run around in it for a tier... or even an extended period of time. It sounds like fodder for dungeons and small adventures.


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## Wik (Jun 13, 2010)

Obryn said:


> I dunno yet.  But from what I've seen, I think it could be an excellent addition.
> 
> Which is why I'm going to wait until the book is actually released and we have actual, substantive information on the role of the feywild.
> 
> -O




Now where's the fun in THAT!?   

As I've said before, most of what I'm saying is purely in an "academic" sense - I already know a lot of what I'll be doing in my campaign, mining these new ideas on a case by case basis.  And feywild is most likely out.  



			
				keterys said:
			
		

> Wik/Kamikaze, the feywild you seem to be assuming is at odds with the description we were given. Ie, that there are small spots on the map - not connected to each other - that touch the athasian feywild.
> 
> There's no ability to go into the feywild for a tier. It's not a plane. It's a single tower here, a single oasis there, etc.
> 
> There's a very big difference in flavor between - "Here's the Athasian version of a race" and "The gods are dead. Divine power source isn't available*. If they seem equivalent to you, then I suspect it might be built more on a dislike for one or more specific races.




No, I get that there are small spots.  But it seems like these small spots will be occuring every time the eladrin fey steps, right?  Which means... those small spots will be everywhere that there is a combat happening that includes an eladrin.  

Hm.  There seems to be a lot of "Small spots", eh?

And then we get into "if they're so small, why make them there at all?" part of the argument.  Why does that oasis need to be its own plane?  Dark Sun has plenty of crazy stuff - to make it stand as somehow apart from Athas kind of belittles the baseline setting.  

And for what it's worth, you're taking my quote completely out of context.  I was looking at Rich Baker's blog, who said, flat out "We need to include Eladrin, as we don't want to alienate the guy that always plays an Eladrin", and yet they specificially say they're going to take out the divine power source.  Those are two conflicting statements, which makes me wonder about the logic behind including Eladrin - they were willing to cut out a whole slew of classes, which seem like a much bigger cut... so why Eladrin?

They are not equivalent to me.  I think it's obvious that they are not.  So I'm wondering at the logic.  Because it makes no sense, as far as I can see.  

And they're not just "adding a race" - I can get behind that.  I would have no problem with that (I never once moaned about the Dragonborn being added - though I did draw the line at Tieflings, for much the same reason as Eladrin).  What I am having a problem with is adding a new planar element to the game that does not really need to be there, to justify the inclusion of a PC race.

Imagine if the designers said "we really need to include tieflings in the game, so there's going to have to be a hell.  So, hey, here's the new Abyssal planes in Athas - they're like normal hell, only dialled to 11!".


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## Wik (Jun 13, 2010)

The Little Raven said:


> If 99.9% of the Feywild is gone, and the remnants are scattered in different areas of the world, it doesn't sound at all like you can run around in it for a tier... or even an extended period of time. It sounds like fodder for dungeons and small adventures.




It sounds to me like an excuse for GMs to not think outside the box.  "I have a great idea for a weird oasis, but it might not fit into Dark Sun... oh, I know!  I'll make it in the feywild!"

"I have a great idea for a tower, but I want it to stick out in the players' imaginations... oh, I know!  I'll make it part of the feywild!"

And what the feywild does is actively set the adventure apart from the rest of the setting.  And I see no reason why it is necessary, here.


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## keterys (Jun 13, 2010)

Wik said:


> No, I get that there are small spots.  But it seems like these small spots will be occuring every time the eladrin fey steps, right?  Which means... those small spots will be everywhere that there is a combat happening that includes an eladrin.
> 
> Hm.  There seems to be a lot of "Small spots", eh?




Or, the Eladrin has the ability to teleport 5 squares, and there aren't any spots at all.

But, that at least narrows down on the "don't like fey step" argument better 




> they were willing to cut out a whole slew of classes, which seem like a much bigger cut... so why Eladrin?



You only cut what makes sense to cut, and no more. Dark Sun's core concept is that there are no higher powers than Sorcerer Kings and the Dragon, that there is no higher hope, no salvation. Divine being cut makes sense. There's no reason to cut Eladrin (or tieflings, or...)



> though I did draw the line at Tieflings, for much the same reason as Eladrin).  What I am having a problem with is adding a new planar element to the game that does not really need to be there, to justify the inclusion of a PC race.



Tieflings don't require a planar element to work, technically. Also, note that there were always Gith and planar menaces in the setting.



> Imagine if the designers said "we really need to include tieflings in the game, so there's going to have to be a hell.  So, hey, here's the new Abyssal planes in Athas - they're like normal hell, only dialled to 11!".



Then it wouldn't be like what they said about the Feywild? 

What's wrong with the idea of demons and devils roaming throughout the Athasian Desert, though, perhaps occasionally controlled by powerful spellcasters?


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## Pseudopsyche (Jun 13, 2010)

Wik said:


> And for what it's worth, you're taking my quote completely out of context.  I was looking at Rich Baker's blog, who said, flat out "We need to include Eladrin, as we don't want to alienate the guy that always plays an Eladrin", and yet they specificially say they're going to take out the divine power source.  Those are two conflicting statements, which makes me wonder about the logic behind including Eladrin - they were willing to cut out a whole slew of classes, which seem like a much bigger cut... so why Eladrin?



Talk about abusing quotations.  Baker never wrote the words you attribute to him.  As I recall, he said that players benefit from the inclusion of "most or many" elements from the core game.  I don't see a contradiction in acknowledging a tension between familiarity and innovation.

I presume that the designers decided that "no divine power source" is an important enough aspect of Dark Sun to remove a familiar set of classes.  They also decided that "no eladrin" is not an important enough aspect of Dark Sun to justify the race's exclusion.  Obviously, you would not make the same call, but their decision is not intrinsically inconsistent.  It sounds to me like they found an interesting story for the eladrin that will not undermine the setting's goals, no more than the inclusion of eladrin or dragonborn or tieflings in the Eberron Campaign Setting ruined that setting.


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## Aegeri (Jun 14, 2010)

There isn't enough facepalm in the world for what you're writing Wik. There really isn't. This in particular:



> And for what it's worth, you're taking my quote completely out of  context.  I was looking at Rich Baker's blog, who said, flat out "We  need to include Eladrin, as we don't want to alienate the guy that  always plays an Eladrin"




This is utterly hilarious. You first start by complaining you are being taken out of context in certain quotes and then proceed to completely _misquote_ Rich Baker with words he never said.

Well done on hoisting yourself that firmly upon your own petard as that takes a genuine amount of effort.


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## mkill (Jun 14, 2010)

I feel pretty sorry for the designers here. They're doing the community a service by actively engaging fans in a forum, and what they get is nitpicking and people blowing some minor details way out of proportion. Stop that Statler and Waldorf act, or at least be more funny while doing it.

Let's face it, the whole feywild issue is maybe half a page in a 150 page book. The entire description is probably shorter than the blog post we saw. If it's such an anathema for you, just blank the whole page with whiteout or rip it out and eat it (and kudos that you already know you hate it even though you haven't seen the thing yet).

But accept that a rewrite of a setting for a new edition and by new writers will include their vision of the setting, and _that's a good thing_. It means that the setting will be breathing new life, after laying dormant for 15 years.

And also accept that there is a whole new bunch of players out there, all of which will be new to the setting, and they won't share your preset image of what "true" Athas is. But if you DM Dark Sun (and this time, non-ironic kudos to you) you will be in charge and you can install your own true Athas, in the same way that the designers put their own true Athas in the book.


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## Ahnirades (Jun 14, 2010)

Wik said:


> I understand that.
> 
> However, both of those examples do not scream "athas" to me. They scream "ravenloft". And yes, they're cool ideas, I'm not faulting you that. But they would break the "feel" of the setting were I to present them at my table.
> 
> Athas is a place where the natural world has been corrupted, and is now dying. It is not a place where the are magical analogs - anything of the sort simply dilutes the fact that it is a dying realm, but it's the only realm you got.




That's fair enough (and cool to boot), but yours is a single interpretation that emphasises the post-apocalyptic theme above all else. Whilst undoubtedly important it's not all Athas has to offer. 

As I understood (and played) it, Dark Sun's influences included, but were not limited to: swords-and-sorcery, swords-and-sandals, swords-and-planet, ray harryhausen movies, Dune, ancient middle eastern politics, chthonic horror and, yes, environmental degradation and collapse. All were fun and none discouraged the sort of magical analogues thus far described. 

Athas is big enough to contain multitudes, so let it. 




> For what it's worth, there is only one "plane" in any Athas I've ever run - a hodgepodge of the ethereal and the place where psionic combat takes place. A sort of shadow realm. And it's only really reached through your psyche - there are no physical forms there. *It was thrown in simply to allow many D&D spells to make sense*.... in 4e, where that requirement no longer applies, I'll be dropping it.




It's interesting that your vision of Athasian cosmology was an attempt to reconcile pre-existing mechanics with the setting. Sound familiar?

It's also a fantastic idea, by the way. Even if I don't use it for DS consider it yoinked.


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## ProfessorCirno (Jun 14, 2010)

A note regarding "world turned to 11" and all that:

Anything and, indeed, everything that would exist in the Athasian Feywilde should exist in Athas itself instead.

There shouldn't be someplace worse, because Athas is already supposed to be "_Deathplanet_."

Whenever people say "Well, how about this idea for what the Feywilde is like..." my first thought is "Why not just have that in Athas proper and not shunt good ideas to the other planes?


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## Ulrik (Jun 14, 2010)

ProfessorCirno said:


> A note regarding "world turned to 11" and all that:
> 
> Anything and, indeed, everything that would exist in the Athasian Feywilde should exist in Athas itself instead.
> 
> ...




Because Athas is supposed to follow a set of natural laws. Magic has warped some of it, but there is still a basic set of rules at the bottom. The Feywild would not be constrained by that.


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## MrMyth (Jun 14, 2010)

ProfessorCirno said:


> A note regarding "world turned to 11" and all that:
> 
> Anything and, indeed, everything that would exist in the Athasian Feywilde should exist in Athas itself instead.
> 
> ...




What's the difference between a terrible environment being directly on Athas vs being on the Athasian Feywild, which exists as scattered pockets throughout the world?

It sounds as though, by this argument, you would be perfectly happy with the same exact scenario, as long as they said, "The feywild isn't a plane anymore, just a bunch of mirages in the desert." Functionally, it is the same thing. The complaint, here, seems almost entirely grounded in abstract theoreticals rather than any genuine impact on how people will be playing the game.

Look, I can accept reasons for not liking the idea of a Feywild in Athas - it sounds like a large part of the complaint is from those who want the threat of the desert to be purely natural, rather than having even worse magical desert threats. And that's fine. 

What I don't get is the unwillingness to even acknowledge that others can find those magical desert threats fascinating, and even find them something that enhances the game. This insistence that the _only_ reason the Feywild is showing up in Dark Sun is because the designers insist on shoving in all 4E elements, or because 4E fans need excuses to not think outside the box, or for any number of other reasons, all of which, frankly, are somewhat insulting to the people on the other side of the argument. (I'm particularly disappointed in Wik, here, since I gave him xp earlier in the thread before his posts deteriorated into this sort of activity.)

Redesigning Dark Sun as a 4E setting that is accessible to 4E fans while retaining the flavor of the original setting is exactly what I am looking for. And I can totally understand if that isn't true for others, who truly wanted a perfect remake of the original setting. But you need to accept that there are people who want what WotC is doing now, and not out of blind loyalty or a need to always play Eladrin, but because we genuinely feel that the setting they are producing will be exciting to play in, and that the very elements you dislike will only enhance the brutality of the setting in our games.


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## I'm A Banana (Jun 14, 2010)

> But accept that a rewrite of a setting for a new edition and by new writers will include their vision of the setting, and that's a good thing. It means that the setting will be breathing new life, after laying dormant for 15 years.




I think I was abundantly clear, at least from my end, that this was a fairly minor issue, and that it wasn't in the slightest bit about remaining pure to a 15 year old setting (and more about the effects on player engagement that planar travel and discontinuity of the world will have). 

But I see the whole "yer just haters! it's new so you must be against it!" strawman has legs, so I'll just leave with a hopefully useful central analogy: the feywild in Athas is like a cell phone in a horror movie. 

And I don't want to have to do _this_ at my Dark Sun games:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIZVcRccCx0&feature=player_embedded"]Failwild[/ame]


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## Pseudopsyche (Jun 14, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> But I see the whole "yer just haters! it's new so you must be against it!" strawman has legs, so I'll just leave with a hopefully useful central analogy: the feywild in Athas is like a cell phone in a horror movie.



Straw man?  Isn't that when you misrepresent an opposing viewpoint in a simplistic and exaggerated way?


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## Kobold Avenger (Jun 14, 2010)

How can Feywild be a place to run away to? When the Belgoi also come from there, as mentioned in a previous blog post.


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## Obryn (Jun 14, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> But I see the whole "yer just haters! it's new so you must be against it!" strawman has legs, so I'll just leave with a hopefully useful central analogy: the feywild in Athas is like a cell phone in a horror movie.



I'm still wondering.  What makes you think the Athasian Feywild will be...

* A sidebar world
* A known quantity
* Usable by the PCs, and
* Available for escape from Athas?

Or, for that matter, a device as useful as a cell phone in a horror movie?

-O


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## Kingreaper (Jun 14, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> I think I was abundantly clear, at least from my end, that this was a fairly minor issue, and that it wasn't in the slightest bit about remaining pure to a 15 year old setting (and more about the effects on player engagement that planar travel and discontinuity of the world will have).
> 
> But I see the whole "yer just haters! it's new so you must be against it!" strawman has legs, so I'll just leave with a hopefully useful central analogy: the feywild in Athas is like a cell phone in a horror movie.



It's like a cell phone, in a horror movie, set in 1965.

Of course you don't have a signal, less than 0.1% of places on the planet HAVE a signal.


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## Herschel (Jun 14, 2010)

Wik said:


> My question here is this: why did 4e Dark Sun need a feywild? Or planes? Or tieflings?




Yeah, I think it does. It makes sense to me. 

Heck, I normally dislike Tieflings and Dragonborn, but to me they fit much better in Athas than in the "normal" world. I'm also not a huge fan of teh Feywild, but this imagining seems really great to me.


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## Raunalyn (Jun 14, 2010)

I am unable to agree with the assumption that allowing the Feywild/Eladrin into Athas somehow detracts from the feel of Dark Sun. On the contrary, I feel that the Athasian Eladrin can easily add quite a bit to the experience.

Let's take for example a party of adventurers travelling from Tyr to Urik. As they cross desert, a freak sandstorm erupts, forcing them to take shelter. Once the storm clears, they find themselves hopelessly lost, but decide to move on, hoping that their destination lies in the direction they are going. However, after several days of travel, they are unable to determine where they are, and none of the landmarks seem to be familiar, and all of them get the impression that they are being watched. So, the wizard in the party attempts a ritual (keep in mind, this is just a scenario) to see if they can determine where they are, but with no success. That night, the party is suddenly surrounded by a band of strange creatures with glowing eyes that seem to appear from the sands of the desert itself. The leader steps forth and whispers that the party can go, but only if they leave the wizard behind.

As you can see, this easily fits within the Dark Sun paradigm, and even adds to the mystery and survivalist aspects.


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## keterys (Jun 14, 2010)

Kingreaper said:


> It's like a cell phone, in a horror movie, set in 1965.




See, now I'm visualizing someone using a big clunky phone to smash in a zombie's skull, and is staggering around with it in their hand in shock. Then the phone rings - not connected to anything, mind you - and they answer it, to talk to the big bad that is orchestrating the whole horror.


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## Kingreaper (Jun 14, 2010)

keterys said:


> See, now I'm visualizing someone using a big clunky phone to smash in a zombie's skull, and is staggering around with it in their hand in shock. Then the phone rings - not connected to anything, mind you - and they answer it, to talk to the big bad that is orchestrating the whole horror.






I had a very similar image myself, but didn't want to muddy the metaphor


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## DarthMouth (Jun 14, 2010)

I realy hope this thread dont make the devs hold Tiefling info much longer.. im really expecting to see more of anything... long time without play D_S.. cant wait any longer.


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## Tzarevitch (Jun 14, 2010)

@ Kingreaper. 
It was muddy to start with. You can't make it worse.


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## Tzarevitch (Jun 14, 2010)

Pseudopsyche said:
			
		

> Straw man?  Isn't that when you misrepresent an opposing viewpoint in a simplistic and exaggerated way?




That's correct. I really have no idea what point he is trying to make either.


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## ProfessorCirno (Jun 14, 2010)

Tzarevitch said:


> That's correct. I really have no idea what point he is trying to make either.




His point is that some people are claiming that the only reason to dislike the changes in Dark Sun are because you're a "hater" and you hate all new things.  It's not only untrue, it's also intellectually dishonest to a huge degree, especially since both he and I have stated that we have _no problems_ with the dragonborn being added in (Shock and awe, those are new too!)


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## Wik (Jun 14, 2010)

Aegeri said:


> There isn't enough facepalm in the world for what you're writing Wik. There really isn't. This in particular:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Okay.  I paraphrased his quote.  I'm sorry - I assumed everyone had read his blog post, in which he said:



> Now, some of you Dark Sun purists might be inclined to say “High elves don’t have any place in my Athas!” But we think it’s important for someone who’s new to the D&D game with 4th Edition to find many/most of the things they regard as being in the core of the D&D game in the Dark Sun setting. If someone out there is a huge eladrin fan – you know, the guy or gal at the table who *always* plays an eladrin – we don’t want to give him or her a reason not to give Dark Sun a try. So that means we’d want to find a place for the eladrin to appear in Dark Sun. Only… different. If halflings are savage cannibals, and elves are nomadic thieves and raiders, we wouldn’t want eladrins to be highly civilized, graceful arcanists off in their own lush green faerie-plane. It’s an important part of the Dark Sun experience that familiar races and characters have bold new “takes” that throw them into different roles, and that means the eladrin receive an Athasian makeover too.




As this was a quote I had already quoted in this thread, I figured I would just paraphrase it.  

How is that any different from what I said, in general principle?  

That is Baker's inspiration for putting Eladrin in the setting.  Fair enough.  But I don't see why one can use that methodology and then cut out divine classes (which can be "stretched" to fit Dark Sun - 2e did it!).  

I'd like to go and make some points, but I have to go for now.  But, to reiterate (I feel like a broken record here):

1)  I agree that the designers have done some great work.
2)  I do not agree with the logic that the feywild is in the book, but I'm not upset about it or anything.  I'm really just trying to approach this in a debate format.  I am far from a "hater".
3)  I am very excited for Dark Sun.  I really am.  I can imagine I'll be making some changes to it, but then, who won't be?  
4)  I am questioning one or two things put out by the designers that makes me wonder about their design choices.  Is that really a bad thing?


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## Wolfwood2 (Jun 14, 2010)

It seems like the role of the Feywild in Darksun is not so much "magical desert" or "natural world turned up to 11" but more "you can't get there by just plain walking".

That is, the Feywild is the place for fortresses that only appear for one night out of the year and then vanish again. The Feywild is the place for the oasis that you can only get to if you follow a specific spiral pattern into it. Head straight there and you find nothing but empty desert. The Feywild is the monument to a lost age sticking out of the desert that only appears in the midst of the most terrible of lightning storms.

You get the idea. I can buy into the Feywild as the common mechanic for Athasian "hidden realms". It's a pretty cool concept and something that I think you genuinely _can't_ do with bog-standard Athasian desert. No matter how terrible the deserts of Athas are, they are still physical places in the real world. If you can keep putting one foot in front of the other and going in a straight line, you can always get to a specific place within them. Not so with the Feywild.


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## Obryn (Jun 14, 2010)

ProfessorCirno said:


> His point is that some people are claiming that the only reason to dislike the changes in Dark Sun are because you're a "hater" and you hate all new things.



Like who?

-O


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## MrMyth (Jun 14, 2010)

Wik said:


> How is that any different from what I said, in general principle?




"But we think it’s important for someone who’s new to the D&D game with 4th Edition to find *many/most *of the things they regard as being in the core of the D&D game in the Dark Sun setting"

Right up front, he is saying that not everything needs to be included. Read the entire quote - only one sentence mentions the guy who likes to always play Eladrin. Several more are devoted to the real heart of the matter - that taking familiar races and throwing them into different roles has _always_ been part of the Dark Sun experience, and that is exactly what they are working with here. 

And here's the thing, regarding your specific comparison. The absence of Eladrin was never a core part of Dark Sun - just a byproduct of them not existing as a specific race at the time! But the absence of gods _is _a fundamental to the setting.

Thus, Eladrin can be added in to preserve familiarity without undermining the setting, while the same isn't true for divine characters. Could they have found a way to make it work if they wanted to? Probably. But they felt the element was too central to the setting to do so, and I am fine with that. 

I don't have an issue with you questioning the designer's decisions here, or stating that you prefer an Athas without a Feywild. You certainly aren't coming off simply as a hater, but... you also aren't particularly coming off as arguing in good faith. There have already been a _lot_ of good responses in this thread explaining why many people are perfectly happy with an Athasian Feywild, and excited to see it in action. Shrugging those opinions aside while fixating on a single quote of the designer (and ignoring all the other reasons the designer is giving), declaring the opposition's viewpoints for them (saying that wanting to use the Feywild means a DM isn't willing to think outside the box), or making complaints based on information that isn't remotely available to us as of yet (how Eladrin's Fey Step will work) hasn't helped your point much, either.


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## I'm A Banana (Jun 15, 2010)

Obryn said:
			
		

> * A sidebar world
> * A known quantity
> * Usable by the PCs, and
> * Available for escape from Athas?
> ...




Because I trust you, Obryn.... 

 *A Sidebar World*: The feywild is another plane of existence. It's not Athas. It's somewhere else. So it is its own place, alongside the place of the Dark Sun campaign setting. It's somewhere else to go, with its own factions and threats and problems. It's not part and parcel of the setting, it is beside the setting. It doesn't have sorcerer-kings. It doesn't have half-giants. It doesn't have kanks. Or maybe it has super-powered magi-kanks.  Either way, it's not part and parcel of the setting, but alongside it. 
 *A Known Quantity*: Anything the PC's use becomes something of a known quantity. If an eladrin PC teleports through the Feywild once per encounter, he's doing it 2-3 times per session, over and over again, over the course of every encounter in the entire campaign. It becomes something of a trusted tool, that obeys some rules very familiar to at least that PC, and, via that PC, the entire party. It's also true that it is a known quantity of the back-story of any Eladrin PC, making it at least a tangential element of one character's practical knowledge. 
 *Usable by the PC's*: Again, the blink elf teleport. Which is part of why one of my own ideas for using eladrin in Athas that I gave above (because, as will be familiar to those reading my posts, I don't think that's really a bad idea) was to refluff it as a bralani-style whirlwind. This keeps eladrin with essentially the same ability (maybe they can't go through walls?), but doesn't use another plane to achieve the effect. Bralani exist already in 4e, so this wouldn't even be out-of-product-identity territory for the eladrin. 
 *Available for Escape from Athas*: If it's a place you can travel to for short periods, or in background material, it's a place you should be able to travel to for long periods, in play. Even at .1%. It would be a desirable place to travel to (no sorcerer-kings ruling over you, protective psionic eladrin, no harsh sun, no harsh weather, no raiding groups of barbarians). Thus, it would be the goal of many characters aware of it. Any group with an eladrin PC is going to be aware of it, because such a PC makes frequent use of it, and likely includes it to some degree in their back-story. Such a group is more likely to want to use this to get out of this horrible place, into some place a little less horrible. It's certainly not inevitable, but I imagine the eladrin characters that the party interacts with that are totally OK with not being in the feywild would be a minority. 
 *Like a cell phone in a horror movie*: Because of the availability of escape, if I as a DM wanted to instead focus on the problems of Athas, rather than of the sidebar world of the Feywild, and the party wants to escape Athas by use of the Feywild, they're forced to contrive some method to prevent the PC's from accessing it in any way more significant than the mechanics of a teleport or two.

Like I said right in that first reaction post, this isn't even a dealbreaker for me as a DM. It's easy enough to declare my own eladrin different, my own Dark Sun feywild nonexistent, my own world free of cell phones. But it does suck that the official design team isn't doing the work for me, that eladrin are less awesome than they could be, and that the official setting has this big elephant in the room that, I think, kind of messes with the feng shui of the place. And it does make me skeptical of the ability of the official team to produce truly unique settings within the framework of 4e (though, again, like I pointed out early on in this conversation, a departure like Gamma World might scratch the spot nicely). 

If that fairly reasonable dispute about a fairly minor point in what looks to be something I'm going to be overall a fan of makes me a hater in someone's mind, I think that poster may need to re-calibrate their Criticism Detector. Because "I think adding the Feywild hurts the feel of Dark Sun" is at least a notch or two below a Helen Thomas-level scandal, though you wouldn't know it from the tone of some of the reactions here.


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## Kingreaper (Jun 15, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Because I trust you, Obryn....
> 
> *A Sidebar World*: The feywild is another plane of existence. It's not Athas. It's somewhere else. So it is its own place, alongside the place of the Dark Sun campaign setting. It's somewhere else to go, with its own factions and threats and problems. It's not part and parcel of the setting, it is beside the setting. It doesn't have sorcerer-kings. It doesn't have half-giants. It doesn't have kanks. Or maybe it has super-powered magi-kanks.  Either way, it's not part and parcel of the setting, but alongside it.



 In order to get from one bit of feywild to another, you have to travel through athas proper.

So, no, it isn't a sidebar world. You could call it 10,000 sidebar worlds, but it's certainly not A sidebar world.

And each bit of feywild is quite small, so I doubt you'd be able to live there.
Especially with those damn Eladrin trying to drive you out.


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## Aegeri (Jun 15, 2010)

Many of these complaints read as if the individuals in question didn't read what Rich actually wrote and are subsequently making a mountain out of a molehill. 

For example:



			
				Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> *Like a cell phone in a horror movie*: Because of the availability  of escape, if I as a DM wanted to instead focus on the problems of  Athas, rather than of the sidebar world of the Feywild, and the party  wants to escape Athas by use of the Feywild, they're forced to contrive  some method to prevent the PC's from accessing it in any way more  significant than the mechanics of a teleport or two.




This is absurd and clearly indicates you haven't even read what the Feywild in Dark Sun actually entails, as Rich Baker on his blog puts it:



			
				Rich Baker said:
			
		

> The *Feywild of Athas is dying*, however, and it *no longer exists as a  continuous, parallel plane*. It’s a *few scattered pockets that don’t  connect to each other*; journeying from one Feywild locale to another  means returning to Athas to make the trek.




I mean how is any of that similar to what you wrote?

1) The Feywild - like Athas - is dying. It's not a safe haven. This inherently destroys any point you've actually made with this, but we'll continue.

2) It is not continuous at all. There may be 'threads' of it behind where you can teleport for extremely short distances, but not enough for any significant travel on the plane.

3) It's just as evil as the Athasian desert and probably worse - given it's actually a more extreme version of the desert. Do you honestly think a PC escaping for a more _deadly_ desert is at all equivalent to what you're saying?

4) We don't even know if Athasian Eladrin can still teleport, the Dark Sun book could well give them another racial power. This wouldn't be unheard of.

Let's also examine that by canon and what Rich Baker wrote:



> *It’s only a matter of time until the Lands within the Wind cease to  exist altogether, and things that were hidden return to the mortal  world*—but the eladrin hope to stave off that day as long as they can.



Indicates that as the DM, you can choose that day to be immediately and all that Feywild stuff no longer exists and is now stuck properly on Athas. As was indicated by the whole part where the feywild is dying and only isolated pockets are left part.



			
				Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> If that fairly reasonable dispute about a fairly minor point in what  looks to be something I'm going to be overall a fan of makes me a hater  in someone's mind, I think that poster may need to re-calibrate their  Criticism Detector. Because "I think adding the Feywild hurts the feel  of Dark Sun" is at least a notch or two below a Helen Thomas-level  scandal, though you wouldn't know it from the tone of some of the  reactions here.




Now you're perfectly entitled to dislike the feywild and similar in Athas. You can remove Eladrin if you like as well. It would be nice though if you could get the basic facts about how it works in Athas right when you're complaining about it. I think that's why you are seeing so many people breaking their "criticism detectors", it's because what you're criticizing isn't valid to begin with - not that you're criticizing it. You've basically set up something that isn't what Rich Baker wrote the Feywild in Athas is to begin with. 



			
				Wik said:
			
		

> Okay.  I paraphrased his quote.  I'm sorry - I assumed everyone had read  his blog post, in which he said:




You didn't say you "paraphrased" his quote, you did this:



			
				Wik said:
			
		

> I was looking at Rich Baker's blog, who said, flat out "*We  need to  include Eladrin, as we don't want to alienate the guy that  always plays  an Eladrin*"




And believe it or not "" are in fact quote tags - they aren't fancy BB quote tags but they have the exact same purpose. They are used when you are indicating a direct quote from another person - in this case Rich Baker. The core difference between what you _claimed_ Rich Baker said and what he actually wrote are worlds apart if you even for a moment analyze what you claimed he wrote and what he _did in fact write_.

This is pure pedantry on my part, but when you're going to butcher what someone else wrote so badly while trying to protest you're being misquoted, the irony is far too much for me not to make a comment.

The actual point here is that they thought they had an element they could choose to exclude or include (one of the core races). They had a logical and well supported way of inserting it into the setting. They did so. In the case of something else like paladins and divine classes before you bring it up, they made a choice not to put in divine classes because they didn't see the need to in a world where the gods were dead. People bought up elemental classes, but the reason elemental clerics were in 2E has simple logic, as demonstated by Rodney Thompson:



> We definitely keep the idea of having a big hunk of people in Dark Sun  be worshipers of the elements, we just didn't limit that to the divine  classes (which, as someone else pointed out, kind of felt like it was a  hack to keep the healing coming for 2nd Edition players). Obviously the  themes tie into this (so keep an eye out for the next Design &  Development column), but the nature of 4E's class structure makes it  really easy to cut out an entire power source and still have the  adventuring party be 100% functional.




So that is why elemental priest went from being a cleric to a primal power source related theme. There wasn't a justification that could be used or a way of logically integrating divine classes into the setting. At the same time returning to the Eladrin/Feywild part, they had a logical justification and a way of putting in Eladrin into Dark Sun. So they did so.


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## lukelightning (Jun 15, 2010)

I like the "turn to a swirl of sand" effect for fey step. A cool-looking teleport without resorting to planar travel.

As for tieflings and dragonborn, they seem very Darksunny to me.


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## The Little Raven (Jun 15, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> A Sidebar World




More like a "sidebar city," since it was directly stated that it's really, really small...

As Moridin said earlier...



> for example, in the DSCS we say something along the lines that *the amount of Feywild left in existence could fit inside the walls of Tyr*






> A Known Quantity




Nothing in official books makes Fey Step move you into the Feywild.



> Even at .1%.




The total Feywild fragments put together fit inside Tyr. Those fragments are scattered over a planet. I think you're making a mountain out of what would be a molehill if it wasn't scattered over the entire world.



> It would be a desirable place to travel to




You keep saying that.



> no sorcerer-kings ruling over you




That a fact?



> protective psionic eladrin




Who says they'll protect someone who wants to crash their pajama party or whatever you assume the Feywild fragments are like? Protective does not equal friendly.



> no harsh sun




So, the sun ceases to exist there? Or ceases to reflect the sun of the world?



> no harsh weather




So, no weather either?



> no raiding groups of barbarians




If the Feywild is the happy, shiny pool party you claim, then why wouldn't it be under constant assault by barbarians?



> Like a cell phone in a horror movie




This is weaker than a house of cards. Your conclusions are based on false assumptions. You keep claiming Fey Step puts you in the Feywild, which is nowhere to be found in the rules themselves, only in preview books and articles that contain tons of outdated information. You keep acting like it's some world or something you can go hang out in, when in fact, most fragments would be the size of a cave or oasis given the size we've been told. You act like it's some friendly wonderful place, when it's the hypermagical reflection of the world that wants to eat you. You seem to be ignoring every actual fact we've been given about it and substituting wild speculation in its place.


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## Obryn (Jun 15, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Because I trust you, Obryn....
> 
> *A Sidebar World*: The feywild is another plane of existence. It's not Athas. It's somewhere else. So it is its own place, alongside the place of the Dark Sun campaign setting. It's somewhere else to go, with its own factions and threats and problems. It's not part and parcel of the setting, it is beside the setting. It doesn't have sorcerer-kings. It doesn't have half-giants. It doesn't have kanks. Or maybe it has super-powered magi-kanks.  Either way, it's not part and parcel of the setting, but alongside it.





I'd add, "...unless it's done in such a way that it becomes part and parcel to the setting, and makes for a cool addition to Athas."  Athas got invaded by Githyanki.  I'm okay with it having had magic-hating eladrin just on the other side of a thin, magical veil.



> [*] *A Known Quantity*: Anything the PC's use becomes something of a known quantity. If an eladrin PC teleports through the Feywild once per encounter, he's doing it 2-3 times per session, over and over again, over the course of every encounter in the entire campaign. It becomes something of a trusted tool, that obeys some rules very familiar to at least that PC, and, via that PC, the entire party. It's also true that it is a known quantity of the back-story of any Eladrin PC, making it at least a tangential element of one character's practical knowledge.
> [*] *Usable by the PC's*: Again, the blink elf teleport. Which is part of why one of my own ideas for using eladrin in Athas that I gave above (because, as will be familiar to those reading my posts, I don't think that's really a bad idea) was to refluff it as a bralani-style whirlwind. This keeps eladrin with essentially the same ability (maybe they can't go through walls?), but doesn't use another plane to achieve the effect. Bralani exist already in 4e, so this wouldn't even be out-of-product-identity territory for the eladrin.



I have to confess some confusion here.  It seems like in both cases, your issue is rooted in Fey Step.  I don't think Fey Step has a built-in cosmological justification, with hopping into the feywild and then back.  Regardless, it's never a refuge, and never more than instantaneous.

It seems like you're bringing your own non-mechanical baggage into this, mostly hinging on fey step itself.  Heck; Fey Step isn't even specifically an arcane effect - it could just as easily be a psionic or primal one.



> [*] *Available for Escape from Athas*: If it's a place you can travel to for short periods, or in background material, it's a place you should be able to travel to for long periods, in play. Even at .1%. It would be a desirable place to travel to (no sorcerer-kings ruling over you, protective psionic eladrin, no harsh sun, no harsh weather, no raiding groups of barbarians). Thus, it would be the goal of many characters aware of it. Any group with an eladrin PC is going to be aware of it, because such a PC makes frequent use of it, and likely includes it to some degree in their back-story. Such a group is more likely to want to use this to get out of this horrible place, into some place a little less horrible. It's certainly not inevitable, but I imagine the eladrin characters that the party interacts with that are totally OK with not being in the feywild would be a minority.



I'd say it sounds no friendlier than the Forest Ridge.  I mean, talk about a desirable place - abundant water and food, and I'm sure halfling PCs are aware of it.   Oh, except for the fact that it's inhabited by incredibly hostile cannibals and dangerous flora and fauna...  which is, coincidentally, exactly what we're being led to expect out of an Athasian Feywild.  The Eladrin over there don't sound friendly, or keen on visitors.



> [*] *Like a cell phone in a horror movie*: Because of the availability of escape, if I as a DM wanted to instead focus on the problems of Athas, rather than of the sidebar world of the Feywild, and the party wants to escape Athas by use of the Feywild, they're forced to contrive some method to prevent the PC's from accessing it in any way more significant than the mechanics of a teleport or two.



Basically, see everything above...  I think you have some misconceptions here, from your own interpretations of the Feywild and Eladrin, which I don't think are valid for an Athasian variation of it.



> If that fairly reasonable dispute about a fairly minor point in what looks to be something I'm going to be overall a fan of makes me a hater in someone's mind, I think that poster may need to re-calibrate their Criticism Detector. Because "I think adding the Feywild hurts the feel of Dark Sun" is at least a notch or two below a Helen Thomas-level scandal, though you wouldn't know it from the tone of some of the reactions here.



No, I think it's reasonable to ask questions about it, but to be frank, it feels like you're reading an entirely different body of work than I am.  Like, we're both reading the same blog post and somehow coming away with entirely different ideas and conclusions.

-O


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## Aegeri (Jun 15, 2010)

Stepping through the feywild with feystep actually is merely a fluff based thing and has no mechanical basis in the rules at all. You can in fact use feystep in the middle of the elemental chaos - which has utterly no feywild to speak of. Fluff =/ mechanics. There is no reason to assume feystep requires the feywild to function in Dark Sun. They can explain how it functions in any number of ways that do not require it.

Teleportation doesn't even require travel through another plane at all anyway.


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## keterys (Jun 15, 2010)

Actually, to set this argument to rest, WotC has just posted a picture of the Athasian Feywild.
[sblock]
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




(Found here)[/sblock]


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## fanboy2000 (Jun 15, 2010)

The Little Raven said:


> Nothing in official books makes Fey Step move you into the Feywild.



True. Some of this discussion sounds like people piling fanon on fanon. If fanon can be applied to RPGs. (Though if it can, I suspect it would definitely apply to D&D)

First is that Athas is unconnected to the other planes. Second is that when an eladrin teleports, it does so using the Feywild. While these assumptions aren't unreasonable, I think it's important to understand that not all players and DMs use them. (Though I do use them. For example, in my campaign right now, eladrin _do_ use the Feywild to teleport.)

Anyways, I think that from a fluff perspective any magic, sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from psionics. At least where Athas is concerned.


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## mkill (Jun 15, 2010)

Ok everyone, even though there seems to be agreement on both sides that this is a minor issue, we're on page 7 now. I think everything has been said on this particular topic.

--------------------------------------------------------------

There is one thing that bugs me, though, and I know I will regret asking.

What about Wilden on Athas?


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## Merlin the Tuna (Jun 15, 2010)

Obryn said:


> The Eladrin over there don't sound friendly, or keen on visitors.



Yeah, this is where I really don't understand where KM is coming from.

So you had a bunch of sorcerers who thought that magic was cool and maybe someday they could use a bunch of magic to turn into giant dragons or something.  In doing so, they suck the Feywild dry of life.  But that's not enough, so they suck Athas dry of life.  And even after seeing the world around them go to hell in a handbasket, they keep going and end up flat out obliterating most of the Feywild, to the point that there is no going back _ever_ because the place is just _nonexistent._

If I'm an Eladrin living in my wonderful magical city cradled between bubbling streams in a mystical orchard, I'm pissed when some idiot's spells kill the orchard and dry up the streams.  As even a novice arcanist, I'm even more pissed when the moron doesn't get the point and does the same thing to his own backyard.  And when he vaporizes the ground I lived on and my family with it to?  I'm not likely to feel hospitable towards any other dunderheaded outsiders.

Given the story that's been put forth by the designers, seeing an Eladrin should call for a decisive slam on the "Oh ****!" button, whether you're in Athas or Feywild -- they're out for the blood of the outsiders that annihilated their homelands (which similarly cannot support visitors), and they very literally have nothing left to lose.  Frankly, as far as I can tell the most likely occupation of an Eladrin in 4E Athas is going to be either assassin or magical/psionic suicide bomber.

The Feywild isn't a place to kick back and down a beer even in regular old Points-Of-Light-Land; I especially don't get where you're getting this "It's a vacation from Athas" idea.


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## Mouseferatu (Jun 15, 2010)

mkill said:


> Ok everyone, even though there seems to be agreement on both sides that this is a minor issue, we're on page 7 now.




Which is why some people have trouble accepting it when some other people in this thread have said "This is a minor issue for me." 

At this point, the mountain that's been made of this so-called "molehill" is big enough to plug the BP oil leak.


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## Aegeri (Jun 15, 2010)

> What about Wilden on Athas?




I imagine like other elements they aren't interested in including specific support for they will just not mention them at all.


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## Kingreaper (Jun 15, 2010)

mkill said:


> There is one thing that bugs me, though, and I know I will regret asking.
> 
> What about Wilden on Athas?




I can't see them existing any more.

If they had to be included (which is doubtful, because... yeah, they're not THAT popular) I'd expect nature's last ditch attempt to wipe out those that are defiling it. And probably wouldn't be at all discriminate in who they kill "The only good humanoid is fertiliser" sort of approach.


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## vagabundo (Jun 15, 2010)

Kingreaper said:


> I can't see them existing any more.
> 
> If they had to be included (which is doubtful, because... yeah, they're not THAT popular) I'd expect nature's last ditch attempt to wipe out those that are defiling it. And probably wouldn't be at all discriminate in who they kill "The only good humanoid is fertiliser" sort of approach.




Maybe they roam the forest ridge squishing halflings and other interlopers....


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## Wik (Jun 15, 2010)

mkill said:


> Ok everyone, even though there seems to be agreement on both sides that this is a minor issue, we're on page 7 now. I think everything has been said on this particular topic.




I agree.  I've said my part, people have disagreed, fair enough.  Some folk are now going after me on my usage of quotation marks.  It's great when people start picking apart your posts and ignorning your actual points, eh?  

(Not that everyone has, but at this point, there's no real value in responding.  I've said my two cents, and I'll defend them if need be, but it's just going to turn into an argument instead of a debate if I keep pushing my opinion, at this point).



> There is one thing that bugs me, though, and I know I will regret asking.
> 
> What about Wilden on Athas?




I imagine they're having tea time with the gnomes, orcs, and wemics.  

If you wanted to incorporate wilden into Athas (I wouldn't, even though I LOVE wilden in normal 4e), I imagine the natural approach would be to say "sand".  I disagree.  I think the cooler way would be to tie them into defiling magic - ie, have wilden actually draw upon the life energy off the earth.... they hate defilers, but only because defilers are such a major source of harm to wilden, who (sort of) defile themselves.


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## Wik (Jun 15, 2010)

I wanted to reply to this because it is a very well put out argument.  I disagree with parts of it, but I do appreciate the way it was put forward.  



MrMyth said:


> "But we think it’s important for someone who’s new to the D&D game with 4th Edition to find *many/most *of the things they regard as being in the core of the D&D game in the Dark Sun setting"
> 
> Right up front, he is saying that not everything needs to be included. Read the entire quote - only one sentence mentions the guy who likes to always play Eladrin. Several more are devoted to the real heart of the matter - that taking familiar races and throwing them into different roles has _always_ been part of the Dark Sun experience, and that is exactly what they are working with here.




Not to be picky, here, but I've always seen the Dark Sun experience as being one where there was a considerable DECLINE in the number of races.  Dark Sun, as compared to pretty much every other published campaign setting (except for maybe Birthright, and definitely Jakandor) had a smaller number of races.  Which, from my perspective, is awesome.  

And I read the whole blog post before making my argument.  I disagree with how Rich Baker describes the Feywild, because I think it takes away from Athas.  But, whatever, I'll ignore it.  I am a bit nervous that the monster book is going to make every cool/weird monster "from the feywild", which would bug me.  



> And here's the thing, regarding your specific comparison. The absence of Eladrin was never a core part of Dark Sun - just a byproduct of them not existing as a specific race at the time! But the absence of gods _is _a fundamental to the setting.
> 
> Thus, Eladrin can be added in to preserve familiarity without undermining the setting, while the same isn't true for divine characters. Could they have found a way to make it work if they wanted to? Probably. But they felt the element was too central to the setting to do so, and I am fine with that.




That's a really good way to put it.  I can understand that point of view.  I don't necessarily agree with it for personal campaigns (there will be no eladrin in my games), but I can understand that belief.  I still don't understand the logic of why you can include eladrin for that reason, and then exclude divine magic (why not simply refluff divine, then?), but I can understand where you're coming from.  



> I don't have an issue with you questioning the designer's decisions here, or stating that you prefer an Athas without a Feywild. You certainly aren't coming off simply as a hater, but... you also aren't particularly coming off as arguing in good faith.




I'm trying.  I really am.  I know I was a bit abrupt with Moridin - hence my apology.  And I've been trying to acknowledge view points.  But then, it goes both ways.  And there's only so often people can tell you that you're wrong, y'know.... before you start looking at them like they're wrong.



> There have already been a _lot_ of good responses in this thread explaining why many people are perfectly happy with an Athasian Feywild, and excited to see it in action. Shrugging those opinions aside while fixating on a single quote of the designer (and ignoring all the other reasons the designer is giving), declaring the opposition's viewpoints for them (saying that wanting to use the Feywild means a DM isn't willing to think outside the box), or making complaints based on information that isn't remotely available to us as of yet (how Eladrin's Fey Step will work) hasn't helped your point much, either.




A few points I want to make to defend myself.  First, I've been looking at one particular paragraph in a three paragraph post.  I have a history degree - this is what we do, when given a small source to work with.  From what I've read of that post, I don't like it. 

The fey step thing wasn't really my main argument, but I dislike teleportation in Dark Sun.  It seems to go against the source material, in my mind.  But whatever.  

When did I say that DMs that use the feywild won't think outside the box?  I believe I said that the feywild can be the "easy button".  And I'm afraid that much of the cool stuff in Dark Sun (a village built over a pool of lava, for example) is going to get shunted over to the feywild.  Which I din't like.  

As for complaints about info... a lot of people have been putting argumetns towards KM and I that are just as assuming.  And I don't see a reason why we cna't assume that the Eladrin fey step in Athas will work like it would in any other setting, since a feywild exists and we haven't been told otherwise.  

Anyways.  Good response, and I hope I've made my opinion here clear.  But I agree with mkill - let's just let the subject lie, before this gets heated and the thread gets locked.


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## Obryn (Jun 15, 2010)

Wik said:


> Not to be picky, here, but I've always seen the Dark Sun experience as being one where there was a considerable DECLINE in the number of races.  Dark Sun, as compared to pretty much every other published campaign setting (except for maybe Birthright, and definitely Jakandor) had a smaller number of races.  Which, from my perspective, is awesome.



Hmmm...  When I look at Dark Sun, I see the opposite.  While there was a general decline in the _NPC_ races (take that, wemics!), the only _PC_ race forbidden, of all those in 2e core, were the gnomes.  (And in 2e, they got shafted anyways.)  Half-Orcs weren't a part of 2e core.

Humans, Half-Elves, Halflings, Elves, and Dwarves were all still hanging out.  And to that mix were added a potpourri of new races - Muls, Half-Giants, and Thri-Kreen in the original set; then aarakocra and pterrans later on.

I think you had _more _options for PC races in Dark Sun than you did in most other 2e settings, honestly.

-O


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## Wik (Jun 16, 2010)

Obryn said:


> Hmmm...  When I look at Dark Sun, I see the opposite.  While there was a general decline in the _NPC_ races (take that, wemics!), the only _PC_ race forbidden, of all those in 2e core, were the gnomes.  (And in 2e, they got shafted anyways.)  Half-Orcs weren't a part of 2e core.
> 
> Humans, Half-Elves, Halflings, Elves, and Dwarves were all still hanging out.  And to that mix were added a potpourri of new races - Muls, Half-Giants, and Thri-Kreen in the original set; then aarakocra and pterrans later on.
> 
> ...




In terms of PC options, you are absolutely correct.  Fully agree (unless you start counting in the book of humanoids and Dragon magazine, in which case there's a huge glut of races in the kitchen sink).  

However, in terms of total humanoid races, Dark Sun is pretty barren by D&D standards.  No orcs.  No goblins.  No lycanthropes.  No kobolds.  No gnomes.  No centaurs, wemics, or other fey creatures.  No ogres, or bugbears, or gnolls, or....

In short, I always found Dark Sun to be a bit more "believable" in terms of humanoid races... although there were still about two dozen of them or so (more if you count some of the silly races in the MC compendiums - but still, not nearly as much as in, say, the Realms, Greyhawk, or even Dragonlance).


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## Aldarc (Jun 16, 2010)

Wik said:


> In terms of PC options, you are absolutely correct.  Fully agree (unless you start counting in the book of humanoids and Dragon magazine, in which case there's a huge glut of races in the kitchen sink).
> 
> However, in terms of total humanoid races, Dark Sun is pretty barren by D&D standards.  No orcs.  No goblins.  No lycanthropes.  No kobolds.  No gnomes.  No centaurs, wemics, or other fey creatures.  No ogres, or bugbears, or gnolls, or....
> 
> In short, I always found Dark Sun to be a bit more "believable" in terms of humanoid races... although there were still about two dozen of them or so (more if you count some of the silly races in the MC compendiums - but still, not nearly as much as in, say, the Realms, Greyhawk, or even Dragonlance).



But is it not an artificial level of "believability" when orcs, goblins, kobolds, gnomes, etc. did in fact exist at some point in Athas history? The only difference is the historical campaign of genocide by Rajaat's Champions that rid Athas of pre-existing races. So what then makes the relative absence of humanoid races in Athas believable?


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## Wik (Jun 16, 2010)

Aldarc said:


> But it is not an artificial level of "believability" when orcs, goblins, kobolds, gnomes, etc. did in fact exist at some point in Athas history? The only difference is the historical campaign of genocide by Rajaat's Champions that rid Athas of pre-existing races. So what then makes the relative absence of humanoid races in Athas believable?




Yeah, fair enough.  Except, I avoid any revised Dark Sun stuff, so in my version of athas - there never were orcs, gnolls, gnomes, or anything like that.  

The setting, as presented, just works better in my mind with fewer humanoid races.  I think most settings do.  It helps solidify things in my head.


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## TarionzCousin (Jun 16, 2010)

mkill said:


> There is one thing that bugs me, though, and I know I will regret asking.
> 
> What about Wild On on Athas?



No chance. The show was cancelled years ago.


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## Aldarc (Jun 17, 2010)

Wik said:


> Yeah, fair enough.  Except, I avoid any revised Dark Sun stuff, so in my version of athas - there never were orcs, gnolls, gnomes, or anything like that.
> 
> The setting, as presented, just works better in my mind with fewer humanoid races.  I think most settings do.  It helps solidify things in my head.



Okay. That sounds reasonable. I too prefer less humanoid races in my campaign. I am always puzzled as to how so many competing, and presumably evolved, humanoid races can flourish in a world. So less humanoid races in a world gives more room to develop those that do exist. Admittedly, the Feywild and Shadowfall give more room to these other flourishing races, which is why, in general, I like the addition of these parallel planes. 

I am not challenging you on this matter, as you do admit that it is a minor quibble, but I think that the inclusion of the Feywild in Dark Sun seeks to address a similar concern. The inclusion of the Feywild is not just for the eladrin, but perhaps more so because some of the monsters of Dark Sun seem out of place in the natural world of Athas. Of course it could be easy to say "a wizard did it" for the existence of these incredibly exotic creatures, but the existence of the Feywild allows for them to be exotic _and_ naturally occurring monsters, who are now trying to eke out their lives in the equally dying world of Athas.


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## Wik (Jun 17, 2010)

Aldarc said:


> I am not challenging you on this matter, as you do admit that it is a minor quibble, but I think that the inclusion of the Feywild in Dark Sun seeks to address a similar concern. The inclusion of the Feywild is not just for the eladrin, but perhaps more so because some of the monsters of Dark Sun seem out of place in the natural world of Athas. Of course it could be easy to say "a wizard did it" for the existence of these incredibly exotic creatures, but the existence of the Feywild allows for them to be exotic _and_ naturally occurring monsters, who are now trying to eke out their lives in the equally dying world of Athas.




Except, how many monsters are going to be "From the feywild" instead of Athas, simply because it's an easier method?  I imagine we're going to see a lot of the tougher, paragon tier monsters being originally "From the feywild".  Also, many athasian monsters do seem out of place - which is kind of the point.  they're mutated beasts.  They're not suposed to "fit" anywhere.  

Having the feywild being the source of most/many/some of the more "exotic" monsters, in my mind, belittles what is grand about Athas.  Of course, it's a very easy fix for my own table... but I'm not looking forward to the day when I sit down at someone else's Dark Sun table only to find that all of the cooler monsters are actually from another plane.

For what it's worth, yes the feywild can add additional races and make the setting make more sense... but that's not the part about fewer races that bugs me.  D&D is D&D - it's not going to make sense anyway.  What I like about a smaller number of humanoid races is that it's easier (in my experience) to make them stand out in my players' minds.  When you have 30 odd races, the players have a hard time seperating the orcs from the hobgoblins, setting-wise.  When you have only 10, that difference is easier to comprehend.  

To be honest, though, I don't really have much of an opinion on the number of races matter - it's never been a big enough problem for me to feel as if I need to "fix" it.


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## Aldarc (Jun 17, 2010)

Wik said:


> Except, how many monsters are going to be "From the feywild" instead of Athas, simply because it's an easier method?



I don't know. How many? 



> I imagine we're going to see a lot of the tougher, paragon tier monsters being originally "From the feywild".  Also, many athasian monsters do seem out of place - which is kind of the point.  they're mutated beasts.  They're not suposed to "fit" anywhere.



Imagining is nice, but knowing is better. 



> Having the feywild being the source of most/many/some of the more "exotic" monsters, in my mind, belittles what is grand about Athas.  Of course, it's a very easy fix for my own table... but I'm not looking forward to the day when I sit down at someone else's Dark Sun table only to find that all of the cooler monsters are actually from another plane.



Except we do not know the extent to which this will hold true. So until that time, we are only working the speculative assumptions. I am also not sure how the existence of the Feywild belittles Athas, since the Feywild is a parallel plane that is _a part of_ Athas. Is Athas any less brutal of a world because of the Feywild? Does the Feywild make the sorcerer-kings tame by comparison? Is the red sun of Athas beat down upon players any less because a Feywild exists? How does the Feywild belittle the severe grandness of Athas?


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## Wik (Jun 17, 2010)

Aldarc said:


> Except we do not know the extent to which this will hold true. So until that time, we are only working the speculative assumptions.




Correct.  I'm basing my opinions off WotC's recent history in such matters - and they've been very fond of the feywild since 4e.  So it doesn't bode well if you hold my views.



> I am also not sure how the existence of the Feywild belittles Athas, since the Feywild is a parallel plane that is _a part of_ Athas.




If it's a part of athas, why make it seperate at all?  The only reason to have it is to break the natural rules of physics (which another poster mentioned earlier).  But a general "shade plane" could do that just as well - why does Athas need a _Feywild_, and all that entails?  The natural world in Athas is already pretty messed up. It does not, in my opinion, need a "even more messed up!" version of itself.  



> Is Athas any less brutal of a world because of the Feywild?




Yes.  Because it is either a place that is less brutal than athas, in which case it would logically be a place of escape for those with the means to do so, or a place that is more brutal, which by its very nature would make Athas less brutal.  It cannot be "the same, but different".  If it is "the same, but different", it is subtracting from the majesty of Athas by diluting the athasian theme and focus on the wilderness/desert.  My two cents, of course.



> Does the Feywild make the sorcerer-kings tame by comparison?




No.  The SKs will be SKs regardless.  But depending on how the Feywild exists, it could affect how the SKs are presented.  Will Lalali-Puy of Gulg have Feywild connections?  It could happen - even though I hope it doesn't.  



> Is the red sun of Athas beat down upon players any less because a Feywild exists? How does the Feywild belittle the severe grandness of Athas?




I answered my view on this above.  People have presented options on why the feywild exists in Dark Sun, and while some of those ideas are nifty enough, I do not personally believe there is enough there to warrant the feywild's inclusion.  But I'm not going to convince you, and you're not going to convince me.  Fair enough.

But tell you what.  When 4e Dark Sun comes out, I'll give the feywild at least a chance, if you promise me you'll give playing WITHOUT the feywild a chance.  Try to see where I'm coming from, and I'll promise you right here and now that I'll try and see if a feywild makes my game any better.


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## Aldarc (Jun 17, 2010)

Wik said:


> But tell you what.  When 4e Dark Sun comes out, I'll give the feywild at least a chance, if you promise me you'll give playing WITHOUT the feywild a chance.  Try to see where I'm coming from, and I'll promise you right here and now that I'll try and see if a feywild makes my game any better.



Sure. I would not particularly mind the lack of the Feywild in Dark Sun. I am curious as to how Dark Sun will be adapted for 4E.


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## Wik (Jun 17, 2010)

Aldarc said:


> Sure. I would not particularly mind the lack of the Feywild in Dark Sun. I am curious as to how Dark Sun will be adapted for 4E.




Henh.  It just occured to me that most of the feywild lovers probably "would not... mind" the lack of the feywild on Athas... while many of the so-called "purists" hate it.  I wonder if there are many people who absolutely NEED the feywild in their games?  

(this is all, by the way, coming from someone whose current campaign has been in the feywild for the better part of a year real time, and about seven levels' worth in campaign terms).  

And yeah, I'm curious about a lot of the changes, too.  Really, the only things I've seen so far that make me "nervous" are the eladrin/feywild changes, some of the "themes", and the very real possibility that 4e Dark Sun might still require treasure packets/numerous magic items (I've always run Dark Sun as being item-light, which may or may not be a common trend among Dark Sun GMs).


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## Aldarc (Jun 17, 2010)

Wik said:


> Henh.  It just occured to me that most of the feywild lovers probably "would not... mind" the lack of the feywild on Athas... while many of the so-called "purists" hate it.  I wonder if there are many people who absolutely NEED the feywild in their games?



Dark Sun "purists" play 2E Dark Sun. Playing 4E Dark Sun is an admission that aspects of the setting will change.


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## Wik (Jun 17, 2010)

Aldarc said:


> Dark Sun "purists" play 2E Dark Sun. Playing 4E Dark Sun is an admission that aspects of the setting will change.




Ha ha.  Call me a Dark Sun purist that hates 2e rules and prefers 4e... but prefers 2e fluff to 4e's.  Which pretty much sums everything up.  

I wasn't really making much of a point last comment.  Just an observation that made me chuckle in regards to the last, like, four pages of this thread.


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## Kobold Avenger (Jun 17, 2010)

I don't think a devastated Feywild detracts from Dark Sun, the way the Lost Sea or a City State ruled by a Good Sorcerer King who's a Preserver aiming to become an Avangion detracts from Dark Sun.


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## Aegeri (Jun 17, 2010)

Wik said:


> Correct.  I'm basing my opinions off WotC's recent history in such matters - and they've been very fond of the feywild since 4e.  So it doesn't bode well if you hold my views.




I actually can't think of the last time the Feywild impacted on or had anything significant to do with any of the 4E games I've run. Despite it being oddly important to 4E somehow. One of the adventures goes to the Feywild for a bit I think (Trollhaunt Warrens IIRC), but the shadowfell is far more significant.

Given how much they support the Raven Queen and have mentioned the shadowfell in modules/books you'd think it was the Shadowfell they were fond of.



> If it's a part of athas, why make it seperate at all?  The only reason to have it is to break the natural rules of physics (which another poster mentioned earlier).  But a general "shade plane" could do that just as well - why does Athas need a _Feywild_ and all that entails?




Why make up a shade plane when you have an already established plane that does that to begin with? Basically you ask "Why are we not making up something new when we have something that can do this".

You're also completely ignoring all the justifications that Rich Baker has already provided about this.



> Yes.  Because it is either a place that is less brutal than athas, in which case it would logically be a place of escape for those with the means to do so




Haven't we already covered why this is wrong? Is everyone going to ignore the whole "The feywild in Athas is dying and is only in small scattered pockets". Not to mention the homicidal xenophobic inhabitants.



> or a place that is more brutal, which by its very nature would make Athas less brutal.




This just fails to make sense, of all the complaints you make this is just daft.

Does Thay in Forgotten Realms become a pleasant place for a happy holiday because the Abyss is arguably infinitely worse? My idea for a Thay based campaign in FR is all humanoid races are basically slaves and cattle to the local undead (essentially currency and food in that order). I mean, that would really suck as a place to live. 

Does that mean when the PCs learn there is a horrible place filled with daemons of incomprehensible evil that suddenly they go "Hey, this place where we're all slaves to be sold and consumed by undead isn't that bad after all it could be daemons!". Probably followed promptly by said individual being eaten by a horde of ghouls alive. Personally I would still absolutely hate Thay _because that's where I'm stuck right now_. If Thay is terrible I'm probably not wanting to go to the Abyss - but it _doesn't in any manner make Thay any less absolutely horrible_.



> But tell you what.  When 4e Dark Sun comes out, I'll give the feywild at least a chance, if you promise me you'll give playing WITHOUT the feywild a chance.




Why would I bother? This is yet another argument from you that makes absolutely zero sense in any manner. Due to the fact the Feywild is dying in Athas, it's in small pockets in immensely isolated places the only way it affects my game in any manner is if I want it to. If I decide to bring it into the game I can do so easily, otherwise it has absolutely zero effect on my game at all.

What point exactly do you think you're making? If I don't see the need to use something that is entirely at my discretion to use I'll see what? That if I don't need to use an element in my game I can easily do so? Especially when it's almost entirely gone and my PCs aren't likely to go there because it's either as bad as Athas normally or worse (with xenophobic inhabitants).


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## Wik (Jun 17, 2010)

Kobold Avenger said:


> I don't think a devastated Feywild detracts from Dark Sun, the way the Lost Sea or a City State ruled by a Good Sorcerer King who's a Preserver aiming to become an Avangion detracts from Dark Sun.




Touche, sir.  Touche!  

For what it's worth, I like the Last Sea.  I just don't like it in Dark Sun.  

And, really, I kind of read your point as "I don't see how The Cold War is bad, in the way that the Second World War is bad".  Yeah, the Cold War isn't as bad, but it isn't GOOD, either.  And apologies for the analogy... I'm a little tired.


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## Wik (Jun 17, 2010)

Hey, Aegeri?  I'm not calling anyone daft, and I'm not jumping in on personal attacks.  I find this an interesting topic, and so do a few others.  Let's not get in on the personal attacks or heated comments, here.  I'd rather see this thread kept open, even if we disagree with one another.  



Aegeri said:


> I actually can't think of the last time the Feywild impacted on or had anything significant to do with any of the 4E games I've run. Despite it being oddly important to 4E somehow. One of the adventures goes to the Feywild for a bit I think (Trollhaunt Warrens IIRC), but the shadowfell is far more significant.




Agreed.  I never argued that.  But there is a lot of feywild geared stuff out there.  Personally, I think the shadowfell would work better in Athas than a feywild, because I don't see it conflicting with one of the main athasian themes out there (the wilderness setting).  



> Why make up a shade plane when you have an already established plane that does that to begin with? Basically you ask "Why are we not making up something new when we have something that can do this".




Well, first off, because that shade plane doesn't challenge the idea of athasian wilderness.  Dark Sun, to me, has always been about two things:  Spending time trying to survive in super dangerous cities, and then excaping those cities into the wilderness and trying to survive in a completely different manner.  Repeat.  

The feywild - TO ME - dilutes that wilderness aspect a bit.  Because a lot of those places in Dark Sun I love... a village suspended over molten lava, a subterranean lake that hisses out yellow gas that causes hallucinations, or a psychic entity that calls people into the silt sea... those places are part of the natural world of athas.  And I can see them being shunted off to the feywild as a means of making the setting "make sense".  

Rich Baker has already, in that blog post, mentioned doing this to preexisting material.  And I'm not a fan of that.  You may be.  Fair enough.  But it's not a mindset I approve of.  

I'm not going to dig up the quote, or paraphrase it from memory.  Because apparently I should never use quotation marks.  



> You're also completely ignoring all the justifications that Rich Baker has already provided about this.




Not ignoring them.  Disagreeing with them.  Two different things.  I understand why he's doing what he's doing.  I just don't think those reasons are necessary/worthwhile.  I will not be doing them in my campaign, and in a perfect world, I'd rather see that page space being used to describe other things.

I've been waiting for fifteen years to find out what's to be found in "Mage Home".  Tell me more about THAT, please!



> Haven't we already covered why this is wrong? Is everyone going to ignore the whole "The feywild in Athas is dying and is only in small scattered pockets". Not to mention the homicidal xenophobic inhabitants.




Both KM and I have responded to that.  And why we disagree with it.  But I'll reiterate MY views on this.  

A scattered feywild works, but since Baker's post ties Eladrin and the Feywild together, I think we can assume that the justification that Eladrin use the feywild to teleport still stands.  That means that, fluff-wise, there is always a feywild when an Eladrin chooses to teleport.  Meaning those small pockets aren't that scattered.

This may not be the case. We're extrapolating.  Absoltuely.  But it's not just me.  People who are pointing at the post and saying "this is fact" are extrapolating too.  It goes both ways.  

And yeah, the feywild is dying.  But then, so is Athas.  So, again, why do we need another batch of dying wilderness that is turned up to 11?  A few functional reasons have been given, which I have acknowledged.  They're not for me, but whatever.  To each their own.  I still don't think they're necessary.

As for those xenophobic inhabitants... how can they fight off invaders?  If they are somehow better than the Elves, Thri-Kreen, Muls, and Humans of the setting (to say nothing of the wasteland horrors or Sorcerer kings), then we have another case of "Eladrin are always awesome"itis going around.  If they're in a place that can be invaded, they should not be able to withstand the invasion.

I don't want Eladrin to occupy in Athas the place that Drow occupy in Forgotten Realms.  

Your tasts may vary.



> This just fails to make sense, of all the complaints you make this is just daft.




I like how you accuse me of not listening to others, and then ignore my line of reasoning completely.



> Does Thay in Forgotten Realms become a pleasant place for a happy holiday because the Abyss is arguably infinitely worse?




Are we comparing apples to apples here?  Thay is a place with undead and wizards on the material plane.  The Abyss is a place where none of the rules of physics apply, and everything is suffering.

The desert in athas is a dry, hot place devastated by arcane magic.  The feywild connected to athas is a dryer, hotter place even more devastated by arcane magic.  



> My idea for a Thay based campaign in FR is all humanoid races are basically slaves and cattle to the local undead (essentially currency and food in that order). I mean, that would really suck as a place to live.




Still better than Des Moines or Saskatchewan.



> Does that mean when the PCs learn there is a horrible place filled with daemons of incomprehensible evil that suddenly they go "Hey, this place where we're all slaves to be sold and consumed by undead isn't that bad after all it could be daemons!".




If they go to the Abyss, and then come back, yeah, they probably will.

My players hate the dwarven city of Drogas, but they prefer it to the Tiefling city of Kael Turath.  Which is a better place to be than the outskirts of the feywild.

Which is fine and dandy.  But they're comparing different entities.  And the wilderness of athas is one of the key points of the setting.  To put a place alongside it and make that place an exaggeration of your key point overshadows said key point.  In my humble opinion.  



> Why would I bother? This is yet another argument from you that makes absolutely zero sense in any manner.




How is it an argument?  I am simply saying "I'll consider your point of view, if you'll consider mine"?  

Isn't that the exact opposite of an argument?  

I'm a very bad person, for daring to consider what those who disagree with me are saying, apparently.  



> Due to the fact the Feywild is dying in Athas, it's in small pockets in immensely isolated places the only way it affects my game in any manner is if I want it to. If I decide to bring it into the game I can do so easily, otherwise it has absolutely zero effect on my game at all.




Yyyyup.  Absolutely true.  Never argued that point.

Now, if you don't want to use it, aren't you glad that page, page and a half (not to mention the inevitable "fey monsters" in the MM addition) are there?  And if you do use it, what are you using it as?  

To be honest, many of the suggestions people have made on how to use the feywild, in my mind, don't need a feywild at all, to be just as cool.  A vague "Shade Plane" could cover a lot more bases as an alternative plane than a specifically nature-themed plane could in Dark Sun... and help convey the settings theme more, as well.  



> What point exactly do you think you're making? If I don't see the need to use something that is entirely at my discretion to use I'll see what?




I am saying that it doesn't need to be there.  That the space can be better used.  We know that there will be a sidebar saying "hey, if you want to have gnomes, they could exist, but it's not core".  Why make the feywild core, when you could just as easily leave it undefined for people to use if they see fit, without needlessly changing the setting?



> Especially when it's almost entirely gone and my PCs aren't likely to go there because it's either as bad as Athas normally or worse (with xenophobic inhabitants).




Pardon my sarcasm, here, but it's the only way I can summarize my point.  Thank *GOD* WotC made a place that is so bad that our PCs can't visit it.


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## Aldarc (Jun 17, 2010)

I am not sure how discussion benefits from further disagreement about the necessity of the Feywild. We do not have the full picture as we do not have the books. Wik and everyone else admits this. For most arguing against the Feywild in Athas is a minor point of disagreement and not a deal breaker. Why argue as if it was? It is merely a matter of taste. If I could change anything thus far that I've heard about 4E Dark Sun, I would roll the timeline back further so that Tyr was not a free city and still under the yolk of Kalak. I happen to feel that having deposed sorcerer-kings dilutes the setting by making the sorcerer-kings seem less invincible. We all have our preferences about how Dark Sun _should_ be.


----------



## Wik (Jun 17, 2010)

Aldarc said:


> I am not sure how discussion benefits from further disagreement about the necessity of the Feywild. We do not have the full picture as we do not have the books. Wik and everyone else admits this. For most arguing against the Feywild in Athas is a minor point of disagreement and not a deal breaker.




Well said.



> Why argue as if it was?




Poops and giggles?  



> If I could change anything thus far that I've heard about 4E Dark Sun, I would roll the timeline back further so that Tyr was not a free city and still under the yolk of Kalak. I happen to feel that having deposed sorcerer-kings dilutes the setting by making the sorcerer-kings seem less invincible. We all have our preferences about how Dark Sun _should_ be.




Wanna debate about that, then?  Because I disagree with you there, too, actually.  But I totally get where you're coming from on that one.  Almost all of my campaigns started with Kalak as king, and none ever got to the part where Kalak was deposed.  

I just want to jump to the good part and start with Tyr recently being freed.  

It's an interesting debate, and one with a LOT more grounds than this feywild debacle.  I think at this point, it's all about which side gets the last word... which I was willing to do, until I was called "daft".  

My Dark Sun, by the way, is not a "by the book" dark sun, either.  A few of the changes I made to the old 2e setting (some which may or may not come back):

*  All magic that is not psionics is hated.  People can't tell the difference between an elemental priest (er, primal character now, I guess) and a wizard.  They don't know the diff between a preserver and a defiler.  If you cast magic, you get lynched.
*  Very few magic items (is this core to the setting?  It always was with us, but the modules don't seem to support it)
*  Fewer psionicists/wild talents.  Psionics are still prevalent... just not AS prevalent (mostly because we hated the rules in 2e).
*  Completely reworked the Veiled Alliance.  Basing the alliance off the French Resistance in WW2 does not work that well, when the alliance has only a hundred members or so in a particular city.  
*  Templars were regularly available as player characters (*SO* glad this option is coming back in 4e!).  
*  I invented new city-states beyond the Tyr Region.  In fact, I figured they were all over the planet... there was nothing special about the Tyr Region, except that the PCs were there.  I hinted that there could be hundreds of Sorcerer Kings out there...
*   In that vein, the sorcerer kings weren't as powerful.  I mean, they were POWERFUL, but not godlike.  PCs could become Sorcerer Kings, thereotically.  And grant spells to their templars.  
*   Anything involving Rajaat or that revised nonsense was blasted out, unless I liked it (seriously, what the hell was Mage Home!?)


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## Aegeri (Jun 17, 2010)

Wik said:


> Hey, Aegeri?  I'm not calling anyone daft, and I'm not jumping in on personal attacks.




Saying your arguments are daft =/ personal attack. 

Because you are making some really poorly supported arguments.



> Agreed.  I never argued that.  But there is a lot of feywild geared stuff out there.



I still don't see the relevance here to Dark Sun or why this somehow shows that the feywild was put into Dark Sun based on this. Your logic here is just not supported, because as I mentioned the shadowfell has had quite a bit more than the feywild (or at least as much). 



> Well, first off, because that shade plane doesn't challenge the idea of athasian wilderness.



Neither does the feywild and you've not made a convincing argument for why this is so yet.



> Spending time trying to survive in super dangerous cities, and then excaping those cities into the wilderness and trying to survive in a completely different manner.  Repeat.



Okay I can go with this train of thought thus far.



> The feywild - TO ME - dilutes that wilderness aspect a bit.  Because a lot of those places in Dark Sun I love... a village suspended over molten lava, a subterranean lake that hisses out yellow gas that causes hallucinations, or a psychic entity that calls people into the silt sea... those places are part of the natural world of athas.  And I can see them being shunted off to the feywild as a means of making the setting "make sense".



You have poor evidence that this is the case. In fact absolutely zero except for one particular place that is mentioned. It's also mentioned as disappearing _off_ Athas and then reappearing - like a mirage. Where would a place that disappears and reappears mysteriously be most likely located? On another plane that phases in and out with the current one.

Undoubtedly you will mangle the example Rich Baker gave as if that somehow accounts for all natural environments on Athas. This is more than likely not going to be the case, because the specific example makes sense specifically as a place in the feywild. Everything you describe there that are natural formations on Athas are unlikely to be on the feywild if they are intended for being on Athas itself.

In addition to this, given that they feywild is very rare as they have emphasized there is very little of the feywild left. This means there isn't enough feywild to go around all these fantastic locations in one world.

So do you _honestly_ believe that's enough to account for all the normally pretty horribly just by itself terrain?



> Rich Baker has already, in that blog post, mentioned doing this to preexisting material.



What a guess! You did indeed utterly mangle the example he gave that even makes 100% sense for the context it is put in for being in the feywild. A place that is described as a mirage that appears and disappears, suddenly turns into all fantastic athasian terrain in the feywild.

The sheer leap of logic here is just astounding and *utterly* unfounded.



> And I'm not a fan of that.  You may be.  Fair enough.  But it's not a mindset I approve of.



You seem to assume I think all fantastic terrain in athas is from the feywild when no such thing has been said, by Rich Baker or anyone working on Dark Sun at all.

Here is the example from Rich Bakers blog for the record:



			
				Rich Baker said:
			
		

> So in Athas the eladrin become a mysterious, greatly feared race rumored  to dwell in the Lands within the Wind—the strange otherworldly deserts  and “hidden cities” that travelers sometimes stumble into in the middle  of the most desolate wastelands. Here’s a great example something from  previous Dark Sun lore that fits: The mysterious Siren’s Song in the  Forked Tongue Estuary. The madness that leads travelers to wade out to  their doom in the silt comes from mind-bending wards and fences of  mirage that guard an eladrin hold in the isle’s Feywild.




Sometimes you run into otherworldly strange places and hidden cities. Given these are rumors it suggests these are not at all commonly encountered (or perhaps even survived). It does not state anywhere "All fantastic terrain is from the feywild". 



> Not ignoring them.  Disagreeing with them.



It would help if you disagreed with what he wrote and not what you think he wrote.



> Both KM and I have responded to that.  And why we disagree with it.  But I'll reiterate MY views on this.



I haven't really found your responses logical to be honest.



> A scattered feywild works, but since Baker's post ties Eladrin and the Feywild together, I think we can assume that the justification that Eladrin use the feywild to teleport still stands.



Why? This is a fluff based answer, but it does not mean that Eladrin in dark sun have to teleport.



> That means that, fluff-wise, there is always a feywild when an Eladrin chooses to teleport.  Meaning those small pockets aren't that scattered.



Even though he said they were when he wrote:



			
				Rich Baker said:
			
		

> The Feywild of Athas is dying, however, and it no longer exists as a  continuous, parallel plane. It’s a few scattered pockets that don’t  connect to each other; journeying from one Feywild locale to another  means returning to Athas to make the trek.




If you can't travel from one feywild location to another through the feywild, it indicates they are pretty scattered. He might be putting on his prince of lies hat and each trip might be the equivalent of going five minutes down the road, but I don't think any fair or reasonable interpretation of _what he actually wrote_ indicates they are close together.



> This may not be the case. We're extrapolating.  Absoltuely.  But it's not just me.  People who are pointing at the post and saying "this is fact" are extrapolating too.  It goes both ways.



I'm quoting Rich Baker directly and what he's writing is far closer to what I'm saying the interpretation is.



> As for those xenophobic inhabitants... how can they fight off invaders? If they are somehow better than the Elves, Thri-Kreen, Muls, and Humans of the setting (to say nothing of the wasteland horrors or Sorcerer kings), then we have another case of "Eladrin are always awesome"itis going around.  If they're in a place that can be invaded, they should not be able to withstand the invasion.



Maybe that's why they are in pockets of a plane that is rarely occurring and hard to find or travel to? I mean, your argument here just doesn't make sense because I can flip it on any of the above races. How are elves surviving? How are Thri-Kreen? Muls? Humans? 

I mean, everything in Athas wants to kill you.



> I like how you accuse me of not listening to others, and then ignore my line of reasoning completely.



That's because your argument there is extremely poor and not even well supported by logic.



> Are we comparing apples to apples here?  Thay is a place with undead and wizards on the material plane.  The Abyss is a place where none of the rules of physics apply, and everything is suffering.



So how does this change your core point?

Your point is:

Place A is terrible
Place B is more terrible then Place A
Magically, Place A is suddenly not terrible anymore.

How in any manner does this make sense? This is your logic.



> Still better than Des Moines or Saskatchewan.



So does that suddenly make Thay not terrible anymore?

I'm confused because someone who is a slave in Thay probably isn't worried about other places at the moment.



> If they go to the Abyss, and then come back, yeah, they probably will.



Which is why it's handy I decide if I even use the abyss in my campaign.



> Which is fine and dandy.  But they're comparing different entities.  And the wilderness of athas is one of the key points of the setting.



When I'm running a game in the middle of Thay the key point of the setting of that campaign is the fact its a horrible blasted undead wasteland. That there are worse places isn't so relevant.



> To put a place alongside it and make that place an exaggeration of your key point overshadows said key point.  In my humble opinion.



That's extremely rare, up to the DM to use and will be gone very soon anyway.



> How is it an argument?  I am simply saying "I'll consider your point of view, if you'll consider mine"?



Your point of view _isn't even based on what Rich Baker wrote in my opinion_. This is really the exception I am taking to your arguments, they are adding this vast amount of hyperbole onto something that has been made pretty clear how it works.

Also your argument is implying "You'll see it will be different" and yet it won't. Because I determine exactly (as I'll be DMing) if that is in the game or not to begin with. I don't see what there is to remove, because if I don't want to use it then I don't have to! They even give me a perfect fluff reason not to!



> Now, if you don't want to use it, aren't you glad that page, page and a half (not to mention the inevitable "fey monsters" in the MM addition) are there?  And if you do use it, what are you using it as?



Whatever I feel like, given that he already wrote:



			
				Rich Baker said:
			
		

> It’s only a matter of time until the Lands within the Wind cease to  exist altogether, and things that were hidden return to the mortal  world—but the eladrin hope to stave off that day as long as they can.




And they can be back whenever I want. I could even make that a campaign if I felt like it. But ultimately it makes exceptionally little difference because feywild based effects (mechanically) are barely existent anyway (some wizard spells are exceptions to this rule).



> I am saying that it doesn't need to be there.



I'm saying it doesn't matter either way, because Rich Baker has wrote it into the setting a way that is both carefully considered and based on good logic. Logic that you constantly turn into strawmans that come out of absolutely _nothing_ he wrote. Like using fluff for teleportation in the players handbook instead of seeing how it works in Dark Sun. Not that teleportation powers in Dark Sun require you to travel across another plane to function though I'd like to point out.



> That the space can be better used.  We know that there will be a sidebar saying "hey, if you want to have gnomes, they could exist, but it's not core".  Why make the feywild core, when you could just as easily leave it undefined for people to use if they see fit, without needlessly changing the setting?



Maybe a designer blogged about that? 



> Pardon my sarcasm, here, but it's the only way I can summarize my point.  Thank *GOD* WotC made a place that is so bad that our PCs can't visit it.



I know! It's like they made something that's very rare and hard to access, because it's very rare and hard to access normally on that plane 

Edit: My problem really isn't that you dislike it, it's that you're making contrived reasons that aren't based on what _anyone_ wrote about it to dislike it. If you had simply said "I dislike this because I don't really like Eladrin in the setting" that would be fine. The reasons you've come up with though aren't supported by what Rich Baker wrote about it on his blog. You've extrapolated things yes, but you've done so in a way that isn't suggested from a fair reading of the text you're basing your extrapolation on.

Edit2: Let it be known that if the feywild is absolutely EVERYWHERE and that if ALL magical terrain is explained using the feywild in the book as you claim I will be the *first* to apologize to you for my tone. Otherwise I think you are being uncharitable to how Rich Baker has described this. Really, that's my problem with what you are arguing. You are more than welcome to hold me to this as well, consider it a bet/promise whatever.

In fact I am so confident that Rich Baker and company haven't done anything like what you've described, that _if I am wrong_ I will *change my avatar to a pink tutu dancer and my title to the princess of lies*.


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## Wik (Jun 17, 2010)

Aegeri said:


> Snip




Okay.  I'm not going to respond in length to your post, because really, we've both said our pieces.  I'm sorry if you're upset about my tone in regards to Baker's post - I've done my best to be polite, and from my readings on said blog post, I don't like where it's going.

And I've said so.  There have been a lot of people who disagree with me on this, but I don't get why it matters what *I* think about something to anyone but myself.  I've argued my points, and tried to do so to the best of my ability.  If people don't agree, fair enough.  I'm not tryign to win hearts or minds.

But I'm not wrong.  And neither are those arguing with me.  You can't be wrong in something that is purely subjective and speculative.  At least, not here, you can't be.  

Anyways.  We've reached an impasse, and that is fine and dandy.  Anyone else feel like moving the conversation on to something else?


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## Obryn (Jun 17, 2010)

Is there anyone else who completely tunes out of an argument when people start replying line-by-line?

It's like a degenerate state of messageboard communication than indicates it's gone on way, way too long.

-O


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## Mouseferatu (Jun 17, 2010)

Obryn said:


> Is there anyone else who completely tunes out of an argument when people start replying line-by-line?




Sorry, what was that? I wasn't listening.


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## Scribble (Jun 17, 2010)

Is this the thread for awesome people?


----------



## Mouseferatu (Jun 17, 2010)

Scribble said:


> Is this the thread for awesome people?




This is ENWorld. We're _all_ awesome.

Except for You-Know-Who. He sucks.


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## Dice4Hire (Jun 18, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> This is ENWorld. We're _all_ awesome.
> 
> Except for You-Know-Who. He sucks.




Now why am I tempted to make a new account with that name and call this a personal attack?


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## Mouseferatu (Jun 18, 2010)

Dice4Hire said:


> Now why am I tempted to make a new account with that name and call this a personal attack?




At a wild guess...

Because you're really, really bored?


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## Dr_Ruminahui (Jun 18, 2010)

Besides, if you did, you would just be proving him right.


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## The Little Raven (Jun 18, 2010)

Wik said:


> That means that, fluff-wise, there is always a feywild when an Eladrin chooses to teleport.




Please, cite a book and page number that says the eladrin use the Feywild to teleport with fey step. The preview books and preview articles with outdated information do not count.

This keeps coming up as some kind of central point when there is no basis to it in normal 4e D&D, much less Dark Sun.


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## Wik (Jun 18, 2010)

The Little Raven said:


> Please, cite a book and page number that says the eladrin use the Feywild to teleport with fey step. The preview books and preview articles with outdated information do not count.
> 
> This keeps coming up as some kind of central point when there is no basis to it in normal 4e D&D, much less Dark Sun.





Um.  PHB 1.  Page 38.  "Eladrin".

And I quote:



			
				PHB said:
			
		

> Play an eladrin if you want....
> *  to be otherworldy and mysterious
> *  to be graceful and intelligent
> *  to *teleport around the battlefield, cloaked in the magic of the feywild*
> *  To be a member of a race that favours the wizard, rogue, and warlord classes.




I'm sure there are other references, but that one is kind of the clincher, for me.  I think I read something to this effect in a Dragon article, as well, but I can't really dig it up at the moment.

Anyways.  People play the game differently and whatnot.  At this point, I'd much rather talk about the positives, and discuss some unknown stuff.

*  Do we know what critters are destined for a comeback?
*  What are some of the "new" Dark SUn monsters going to be?
*  Is there a core adventure?  What do y'all think it will involve?
*  How can we incorporate divine classes, if we so choose?  What do we think the advice in the books will be for this?
*  Potion fruits - anyone have an idea of how these will be implemented?


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## Jack99 (Jun 18, 2010)

TarionzCousin said:


> It's going to be okay: Halflings are still cannibals.



Swing!!


Mouseferatu said:


> This is ENWorld. We're _all_ awesome.
> 
> Except for You-Know-Who. He sucks.




Be nice to P-kitty, I am sure he has feelings too....


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## Aegeri (Jun 19, 2010)

> Do we know what critters are destined for a comeback?




Mr bell is coming back (forget the name, lures people off a caravan with a bell then murders them) and so are Psurlon's (apparently). Other than that there are Kanks and other creatures. In fact we're most likely going to get the most old monsters coming back out of any setting, because Dark Sun abandons a specific players book and instead has a Creature Catalog exclusively of Dark Sun monsters.



> Is there a core adventure?  What do y'all think it will involve?




[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Marauders-Dune-Sea-4th-Adventure/dp/0786954957/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276903290&sr=8-1-spell]Marauders of the Dune Sea[/ame].



> *  How can we incorporate divine classes, if we so choose?  What do we  think the advice in the books will be for this?



I definitely remember reading about this one and the answer is, nothing! Unlike before, instead of specifically removing elements in the book things they don't want to bother with they are just not talking about at all. Divine magic is one of the things not used in Dark Sun, so they just don't talk about it and leave such justifications entirely up to the DM.

This is by far the best way of doing it too.


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## Pseudopsyche (Jun 19, 2010)

PHB said:
			
		

> To teleport around the battlefield, cloaked in the magic of the feywild





Wik said:


> I'm sure there are other references, but that one is kind of the clincher, for me.



I'd like to confirm: for you, it follows logically from the first quote that the character is temporarily shifting planes to the Feywild?


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## Wik (Jun 19, 2010)

Pseudopsyche said:


> I'd like to confirm: for you, it follows logically from the first quote that the character is temporarily shifting planes to the Feywild?




Y'know, I knew someone was going to bring that up.  But there are other things:

First, it's called "fey Step".  In other words, they're stepping into the fey, and then stepping out.  It's a teleportation effect.  To me, a power that has "fey" in the name and is teleportation based could reasonably be expected to equal teleportation.  there are other sources that say as much, but I can't really dig them up right now (nor do I feel the inclination to).

But yes, I'd say from the descriptions given that it is reasonable to assume the feywild is used as a conduit in this case.  You can disagree with me, and that's cool, but I think it's a fairly reasonable line of logic to assume that the feywild is involved from the fluff given.

Mind you, I have no desire to get into a "fluff war" or anything.  




			
				aegeri said:
			
		

> Mr bell is coming back (forget the name, lures people off a caravan with a bell then murders them) and so are Psurlon's (apparently). Other than that there are Kanks and other creatures. In fact we're most likely going to get the most old monsters coming back out of any setting, because Dark Sun abandons a specific players book and instead has a Creature Catalog exclusively of Dark Sun monsters.




Ah, yes, the Gith belgoi.  I'm aware of the other ones listed.  I was kind of curious about some of the more "rare" monsters from Dark Sun.  With two whole MC books out there (plus those in other supplements), I don't know if we'll see all, but I think about 60-75% is about the right number.

I really would like to see things like Agony Beetle Swarms, or Silk Wyrms.  Those were some of my favourite DS monsters...

As for the Marauders adventure,   it seems alright from the basic blurb.  I'm all for idle speculation on this subject... what will it contain?  The last DS adventure I remember starting in Free Tyr (the one in the revised set) was kind of, um, garbage-y.  So let's hope this one is better!  I'll probably scavenge the hell out of it.



> I definitely remember reading about this one and the answer is, nothing! Unlike before, instead of specifically removing elements in the book things they don't want to bother with they are just not talking about at all. Divine magic is one of the things not used in Dark Sun, so they just don't talk about it and leave such justifications entirely up to the DM.
> 
> This is by far the best way of doing it too.




Oh.  My.  God.  I agree with you.  

That being said, I think it could have been cool if an effort was made to tie the divine classes into Elements (instead of deities).  It was definitely an option, and I'm sure there were discussions to that effect (since Baker mentioned considering including Eladrin to satisfy players, we can easily assume that there was a discussion that divine classes should be included to satisfy players... I take it my logic is sound on that one?).  

I'd be curious to hear more regarding that specific decision-making process.  

One thing I like about no Divine power source is it, in a sense, makes undead stronger.  And I've always seen Athas as a rather undead-heavy setting, considering it lacked a strong "horror" vibe (it could easily support a horror campaign, though).


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## interwyrm (Jun 19, 2010)

Wik said:


> First, it's called "fey Step".
> 
> One thing I like about no Divine power source is it, in a sense, makes undead stronger.  And I've always seen Athas as a rather undead-heavy setting, considering it lacked a strong "horror" vibe (it could easily support a horror campaign, though).




Aren't Eladrin Fey? I don't think it means they have to step through the feywild... just that they have the fey subtype.

I only played Dark Sun through the cRPGs... which, although buggy, were a lot of fun. You *could* play as a cleric, but it was a cleric of an element rather than of a god. I don't understand why they can't do that for the new Dark Sun... although thematically maybe all radiant damage should be converted to the relevant damage type for the element.


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## Wik (Jun 19, 2010)

interwyrm said:


> I only played Dark Sun through the cRPGs... which, although buggy, were a lot of fun. You *could* play as a cleric, but it was a cleric of an element rather than of a god. I don't understand why they can't do that for the new Dark Sun... although thematically maybe all radiant damage should be converted to the relevant damage type for the element.




Those games WERE fun.  Especially when considered in light of the technology of the time.  And 2e had Clerics.  They were added because they were a necessary role in 2e at the time - you needed a healing source, and druids just couldn't cut it as dedicated healers.  But in Dark Sun, druids got a power boost, and clerics got a power cut.  

The 4e method of just replacing the "clerics" with the primal power source makes a lot of sense.  It's thematically closer to the original dark sun, and it gets rid of many "radiant" attacks, which don't really fit well with how I envision Dark Sun, at least.  

The thing is, they COULD tie a cleric's powers into an elemental subtype, and that would have been pretty cool.  I also would be okay with Clerics/Divine casters choosing to worship one of the Sorcerer Kings (essentially, the Divine power type would be the "templar" power source).  

All that being said, I think Aegeri has the right of it here.  Dark Sun is better served by cutting out the power source entirely.  It's less confusing for neophytes to the setting, and helps solidify things in gamers' minds.

It's also a really good step towards something that has nothing to do with Dark Sun at all - it shows that wotc is willing to make cuts in their game to suit a creative idea.  I have a hope in my heart that, down the road when we see a 4e centric campaign setting, that there will be similar cuts (probably not as drastic) to define the setting.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jun 19, 2010)

Wik said:


> Except, how many monsters are going to be "From the feywild" instead of Athas, simply because it's an easier method?  I imagine we're going to see a lot of the tougher, paragon tier monsters being originally "From the feywild".



Maybe. We already know the Belgoi is exiled from the Feywild. There are a handful of existing low-tier Dark Sun creatures I can see being re-flavored as exiles from the Feywild

I'm simply going to rip out the Feywild. For me, The Black is where the Feywild used to be.


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## Wik (Jun 19, 2010)

Eric Anondson said:


> Maybe. We already know the Belgoi is exiled from the Feywild. There are a handful of existing low-tier Dark Sun creatures I can see being re-flavored as exiles from the Feywild
> 
> I'm simply going to rip out the Feywild. For me, The Black is where the Feywild used to be.




Oo!  I actually kind of like that!


----------



## Aegeri (Jun 19, 2010)

> That being said, I think it could have been cool if an effort was made  to tie the divine classes into Elements (instead of deities).



Actually there is an elemental priest, but it's a primal theme and not strictly anything to do with the divine. I quoted Rodney Thompson in the previous post I made where he stated they wanted to avoid just adding divine - especially because in 2E it felt more like a "hack" to get healing added to the game.

Edit (Quote Inserted):



			
				Rodney Thompson said:
			
		

> We definitely keep the idea of having a big hunk of people in Dark Sun   be worshipers of the elements, we just didn't limit that to the divine   classes (which, as someone else pointed out, kind of felt like it was a   hack to keep the healing coming for 2nd Edition players). Obviously the   themes tie into this (so keep an eye out for the next Design &   Development column), but the nature of 4E's class structure makes it   really easy to cut out an entire power source and still have the   adventuring party be 100% functional.


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## Wik (Jun 19, 2010)

Aegeri said:


> Actually there is an elemental priest, but it's a primal theme and not strictly anything to do with the divine. I quoted Rodney Thompson in the previous post I made where he stated they wanted to avoid just adding divine - especially because in 2E it felt more like a "hack" to get healing added to the game.




Once I heard that "hack" bit, I totally realized it was true.  And Rodney was dead accurate - the game does NOT need divine classes.  I think mechanically "divine" classes that worship the sorcerer kings could be a neat touch, but I don't really care one way or another.  The way it currently stands is, I think, the best approach.  

***

For what it's worth, while there is no divine magic in Dark Sun, it is important to make the following statement:

While there are no "gods" on Athas, that does NOT mean there is no "religion".  There are cults, priests, and everything else.  They just don't necessarily have magical power.  

I kind of wish 2e dark sun was wiling to play with that - there SHOULD be non-templars who fervently worship sorcerer kings and queens.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jun 20, 2010)

Wik said:


> Oo!  I actually kind of like that!



What made it stick for me was imagining eladrin popping around a combat like Nightcrawler leaving behind a swiftly dissipating swirl of inky black vapors.

I think having eladrin working as the Feywild's defenders isn't enough of a change to the race. In fact, it feels like it isn't a change at all. Looking at how much elves were changed for Dark Sun, or halflings, or dwarves. It really feels like eladrins (from what we've been shown so far) get a minimalist makeover, and that feels like a letdown.

For me, the flavor I'm considering instead would have eladrin still favoring arcane arts with most tending towards defiling in their spellcasting, they just really don't care that it affects the world as it does. They are willful, happy participants in the destruction of the world, not a protector of anything but their self-interest. While elves mostly live in roaming tribes outside the city-states, the eladrin are thoroughly urbanized sticking to the shadows of the "elven quarter" of every city-state. Those city-elves of DS? 4e's eladrin.


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## Herschel (Jun 21, 2010)

I think my first character will be a radiant power spellchucking Watersoul Genasi who starts his own cult.  When there's no divine power source, might as well suck up any surplus adoration and give th eimpression that there is.


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## Scribble (Jun 21, 2010)

Wik said:


> Once I heard that "hack" bit, I totally realized it was true.  And Rodney was dead accurate - the game does NOT need divine classes.  I think mechanically "divine" classes that worship the sorcerer kings could be a neat touch, but I don't really care one way or another.  The way it currently stands is, I think, the best approach.




You could maybe do this by re-flavoring a Warlord.

Wouldn't be true divine magic, but they might say it is (faith in our lord will heal you and all that.) Instead of motivational speeches, they'd deliver sermons on the battlefield to whip their followers into crazy faith fueled shape.


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## Wik (Jun 21, 2010)

Herschel said:


> I think my first character will be a radiant power spellchucking Watersoul Genasi who starts his own cult.  When there's no divine power source, might as well suck up any surplus adoration and give th eimpression that there is.




I'm pretty sure there will be no Genasi on athas... and watersoul is an incredibly poor choice, since you won't even be able to use any of your racial abilities.... 

However, the cult idea is a good one - I've always seen Athas as a place rife with cults.  Most of them doomsday in nature.


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## Obryn (Jun 21, 2010)

Wik said:


> I'm pretty sure there will be no Genasi on athas... and watersoul is an incredibly poor choice, since you won't even be able to use any of your racial abilities....
> 
> However, the cult idea is a good one - I've always seen Athas as a place rife with cults.  Most of them doomsday in nature.



I'm fairly certain Genasi won't get a mention.  With that said, out of all the weirder races, they're one of the better fits.  Moreso than shardminds, minotaurs, githzerai, etc. at least.

I mean, the whole "elemental humanoid" shtick kinda seems natural for Athas.  I don't know about watersoul genasi, but firesoul in particular (and their cindersoul brethren) seem like a great fit.

-O


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## lukelightning (Jun 21, 2010)

Wik said:


> I'm pretty sure there will be no Genasi on athas... and watersoul is an incredibly poor choice, since you won't even be able to use any of your racial abilities....
> 
> However, the cult idea is a good one - I've always seen Athas as a place rife with cults.  Most of them doomsday in nature.




If you do play a water genasi, expect to be drunk. No, not inebriated... drunk.


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## keterys (Jun 21, 2010)

I think the whole line of abyssal genasi might be a good fit for Athas - inverted elements, and all.


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## The Little Raven (Jun 22, 2010)

Wik said:


> I'm pretty sure there will be no Genasi on athas... and watersoul is an incredibly poor choice, since you won't even be able to use any of your racial abilities....




The genasi are a good fit for Dark Sun with the elemental themes. Watersoul could just be called Siltsoul, and aside from the lack of water to need to breathe in, all their other racial powers work just fine.


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## Mouseferatu (Jun 22, 2010)

The Little Raven said:


> Watersoul could just be called Siltsoul, and aside from the lack of water to need to breathe in, all their other racial powers work just fine.




I was just thinking, yesterday, how absolutely cool it would be if Athas included a Venice-like city or city-state, but built floating atop a "bay" of silt rather than water.

Heck, I may propose that to the Insider, once the Dark Sun setting's out.


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## Kobold Avenger (Jun 22, 2010)

Genasi most definitely do fit in, in one of the Dark Sun of the Monstrous Compendiums, there was a creature called the Rukovas.  The Rukovas were humanoid tribes that lived in the different Elemental Planes.  And they were reprinted again in one of the Planescape MCs too along with the Psurlons.

Anyways I've been pondering what the Rukova could be in editions beyond 2e, and in 3e they were quite possibly just Half-elemental humans.  In 4e the Rukova certainly look like Genasi to me.  So more likely than not that's what all the Genasi in Athas are going to be.

What's confirmed so far for races:
Dragonborn = Dray
Githyanki = Gith

What's quite possible for races:
Genasi = Rukova
Deva = Villichi


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## Wik (Jun 22, 2010)

Kobold Avenger said:


> What's confirmed so far for races:
> Dragonborn = Dray
> Githyanki = Gith
> 
> ...




Devas as Villichi?  I was thinking Kalashtar.  

And you forgot to mention that Tieflings are in, too.  (Not sure how I feel about it - we'll see the info before I start griping.    )


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## DracoSuave (Jun 22, 2010)

Wik said:


> Devas as Villichi?  I was thinking Kalashtar.
> 
> And you forgot to mention that Tieflings are in, too.  (Not sure how I feel about it - we'll see the info before I start griping.    )




Pffft, Dark Sun has all sorts of wierd  going on in it.  A guy with horns and a generally twisted appearance don't bat an eye from me, I just want to get my water and get out of here before the templars arrive.


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## Obryn (Jun 22, 2010)

Wik said:


> And you forgot to mention that Tieflings are in, too.  (Not sure how I feel about it - we'll see the info before I start griping.    )



Well, like I've said, if you start from the assumption that this is a post-apocalyptic 4e setting instead of a post-apocalyptic 2e setting, it would be more remarkable if they _weren't_ there. 

-O


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## DracoSuave (Jun 22, 2010)

Obryn said:


> Well, like I've said, if you start from the assumption that this is a post-apocalyptic 4e setting instead of a post-apocalyptic 2e setting, it would be more remarkable if they _weren't_ there.
> 
> -O




Tieflings were in second edition too, ya know.


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## Obryn (Jun 22, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> Tieflings were in second edition too, ya know.



Sorta vaguely, in a mostly-planescape kinda way, yes.

-O


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## Dire Human (Jun 22, 2010)

Oh, man, I totally get it now. The situation with the Feywild is a perfect metaphor for the setting, and a perfect blending of the 4th Edition cosmology and the Dark Sun setting concepts.

The Feywild in 4th Edition has always been a place of two things: unfiltered arcane magic given by Corellon, and an exaggerated reflection of the real world's natural environment. In the new setting fluff Athas is a place where the Primordials defeated the Gods, warping the world with their presence. With no more Corellon to spread arcane magic, its supply is limited. With the Primordials ruling the setting, elemental forces are naturally destructive and are unmaking the world, starting with living things. Not only is the Feywild's sustaining supply of arcane magic dwindling in the hands of Defilers, but environmental destruction is turning the plane into a reflection of the desert, further destroying it.

Guys? Figuratively and literally, the Feywild is _drying up_.


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## Herschel (Jun 22, 2010)

lukelightning said:


> If you do play a water genasi, expect to be drunk. No, not inebriated... drunk.




"I'm being chased by an obsessed mob"

"Of Templars for defying the Sorcerer king?"

"No, elves with bendy straws!"


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## med stud (Jun 23, 2010)

I didnt think I would like eladrin in Dark Sun, but I like where Baker is going with this. I get Fremen/Central Asian warrior- vibes from them, a xenophobic culture that uses death commandos for reasons that the main "civilization" doesn't understand or doesn't agree with. Nifty!

As for the Feywild, well, I really have no opinions if it's in or not. Taken as a hack, it's far less intrusive than the elemental clerics of 2e and I didn't really have a problem with those (except that they were always needed in a party, ofc).

Since I like the take on Athasian dragonborn as well, I suppose that's a 2/3 this far, hopefully tieflings become something interesting as well (which would be something since I don't like them very much in the core ~~)


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## bganon (Jun 23, 2010)

My totally fluff-based solution to the fragmented Feywild/Fey Step issue:


Once, on my travels, I had the privilege of meeting one of the rare and mysterious eladrin.  Apparently I was even luckier than I'd realized, as I have since found that many eladrin simply attack other races on sight, and few are willing to engage in conversation.  But this one, perhaps because we had shared water together, was amenable for at least an evening.

Superficially they resemble elves, but after even a short conversation it became obvious to an experienced traveler such as myself that his odd demeanor arose from a completely different life history than any nomadic desert elf. After regaling him with tales of the unspoiled natural splendor I'd seen in the forests west of the mountains (I must admit, I omitted some details regarding halflings), he seemed to relax slightly and became more talkative.

Among other things, I asked if it were true that his kind could travel through the Fey realm virtually at will.  The ensuing explanation was so interesting I have attempted to record it in detail here.

"We once freely moved between worlds, yes.  Now it is not so easy - wars thousands of years ago shattered the Feywild and now it is left in fragments."

I must admit that at the time I did not realize that due to eladrin longevity he might have many interesting stories about these long-ago wars, which are scarcely mentioned in human records.  Instead, my mind preoccupied with the practical applications of his ability, I wondered out loud if this must mean eladrin could only step between realms in certain specific areas.

"Oh no, you misunderstand.  You think of the Feywild as a 'place'.  It is... was... not.  It was a living thing, and as long as my people still live we shall each carry a fragment of it within ourselves."

Then with great curiosity I had to ask, "What's it like?  What do you see when you're between worlds?"

His face stiffened, and he looked away and was silent.  I was worried I'd offended him somehow and would get no further conversation.  After a very long silence, he quietly said this:

"I see nothing, because most of the time I close my eyes."​


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## Perun (Jun 24, 2010)

Kobold Avenger said:


> Genasi most definitely do fit in, in one of the Dark Sun of the Monstrous Compendiums, there was a creature called the Rukovas.  The Rukovas were humanoid tribes that lived in the different Elemental Planes.  And they were reprinted again in one of the Planescape MCs too along with the Psurlons.




I'm fairly certain they're actually called the _ruvkova_, at last in the PS MC Appendix (III, I think, the one dealing with the inner planes). I'm nit-picking, but just in case someone wants to look them up or something. 

Regards!


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jun 24, 2010)

Perun said:


> I'm fairly certain they're actually called the _ruvkova_, at last in the PS MC Appendix (III, I think, the one dealing with the inner planes). I'm nit-picking, but just in case someone wants to look them up or something.



They are not. Actually, they are not either way of spelling them. In Dark Sun they have been spelled _ruvoka_.


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## Squizzle (Jun 24, 2010)

It looks like that book is notable for the misspellings.


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## DarthMouth (Jun 24, 2010)

And those goblins in this week D&D encounters ? Any word about them ?

Not even reeskined ones. that i dont liked.


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## bganon (Jun 24, 2010)

DarthMouth said:


> And those goblins in this week D&D encounters ? Any word about them ?
> 
> Not even reeskined ones. that i dont liked.




Yeah, that was a bit weird.  But Athas is supposed to be full of mutated creatures.  So I figure, even if all goblins and orcs were exterminated in the past, what stops small pockets from just popping back up from human/halfling/elven stock now and then?

I suppose you could use this same reasoning if a PC wanted to be a gnome or something.


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## possum (Jun 24, 2010)

DarthMouth said:


> And those goblins in this week D&D encounters ? Any word about them ?
> 
> Not even reeskined ones. that i dont liked.




Yeah, that kind of threw me last night, too.  I thought about saying something, but I do suppose that they could have mutated from some halfling stock or maybe a few small pockets managed to somehow survive the genocide.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Jun 25, 2010)

Sounds to me like the whole genocide theme may not even exist. I don't recall anything about it in the original setting, it was more of a later addition to explain the lack of certain races. It may also have been apocryphal.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jun 25, 2010)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> It may also have been apocryphal.



No, it wasn't apocryphal.

I don't recall it being mentioned in the original boxed set, maybe it was, but if it wasn't it was because I recall it being written from the perspective of the current inhabitants. In novels that were release immediately with the original set had the characters discover pieces of the timelost history, including the origin of the Sorcerer Kings as genocidal generals.


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## Perun (Jun 25, 2010)

Eric Anondson said:


> They are not. Actually, they are not either way of spelling them. In Dark Sun they have been spelled _ruvoka_.






Squizzle said:


> It looks like that book is notable for the misspellings.




Ah, thanks. I never actively used the DS setting (although I've been intrigued by it, and am eagerly awaiting the 4e version), and I never connected ruvoka with the setting. My only experience with them was from the PS, and now, after reading that PLANESCAPE-L comment, I seem to remember being confused with the alternate spelling.

Thanks for the explanation!

Regards.


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## Obryn (Jun 25, 2010)

FWIW, Bloodsand Arena (the freebie) specifically calls out lists of monsters which are thematic for Dark Sun.  And it says basically any insectoid or reptilian doodad will work.  Goblins aren't on the list 

I just don't think they'll be mentioned at all in the hardcover.

-O


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## Savevsdeath (Jun 25, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> I'm personally less interested in "remaining faithful" then in "being awesome." I don't have much use for historic purity or nostalgia, but awesome in any form is always welcome. The original had indisputable awesome in that brutal world. Isolation enhances that awesome. Low-level 2e didn't have blink elves, after all. And without traditional D&D magic, planehopping player characters weren't much of a concern. If you can run away to a better place by being a 1st level blink elf, it's not much of a Crapsack World, it's just a crapsack neighborhood. Which is nice and evocative, until you move out.
> 
> I mean, that's part of why "the gods are silent" has such potency for a player: you are alone, a happy afterlife does not await you, and there is no escape from the brutal world you were born into. That's what motivates you to do Heroic Things like kill sorcerer-kings. The planar isolation goes hand-in-hand with that, I feel.
> 
> ...





So what you're trying to say is you REALLY REALLY REALLY HATE ELADRIN.

Amirite?


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## Jhaelen (Jun 28, 2010)

Obryn said:


> And it says basically any insectoid or reptilian doodad will work.



Yup. Thinking back to 2e, everything cat-like should be fine, too, and everything dog-like isn't. Bird-like creatures should mostly be okay, too.

I'll have to dig out my 2e Dark Sun campaign rules to look over my monster lists


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## Wik (Jun 28, 2010)

Jhaelen said:


> Yup. Thinking back to 2e, everything cat-like should be fine, too, and everything dog-like isn't. Bird-like creatures should mostly be okay, too.
> 
> I'll have to dig out my 2e Dark Sun campaign rules to look over my monster lists




Yeah, you've more or less got it, though if memory serves, most of the cat-like things were dropped in revised rules for some reason.  Really, most mammals were dropped in the revised set, but I think the original set mentioned there being "athasian bears" and "athasian wolves" or something like that, with the idea being "take a mammal, lose the fur, and add a carapace".  

***

Really, I think any monster can work in Dark Sun, provided it is not a "species" and is instead a "mutation".  Monsters that are easily recognizable from other D&D sources (Goblins, Owlbears, Minotaurs, etc) should be dropped unless you don't mind muddying your setting a bit (another reason I dislike Eladrin + Tieflings, as when I think of them, I think of the things they're associated with, too, and those things should not be in my dark sun). 

Avoid planar monsters, unless you're willing to refluff.  The reasoning for this (in my book) is that "Planar" means "External".  And one of the great ideas of Athas is that humanity has done this to itself.  It wasn't done because devils corrupted man, or anything silly like that.  Everything you see was done to ourselves.  Which is a traditional post-apocalyptic theme.  

Adding in planar monsters sets up the fact that devils and the like probably had a part to play (and even if they didn't, they'll still be corrupting men, which isn't so good in Dark Sun - humans should be corrupting themselves, without external aid).  

Of course, that's all my opinion.  Really, I'd just say use the monster lists as a guideline, and in the end there should be absolutely no reason why your campaign can't have mimics, couatls, and owlbears.


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## Silverblade The Ench (Jun 28, 2010)

When Dark Sun came out, obviously they couldn't have enough critters to populate it ONLY form the 1st Dark Sun Monstrous Compendium, so it had a seleciton of suitable critters form other sources.

In the "official timeline" which I _Ignore and Loathing In New Tyr _(tm) , many creatures were wiped out in genocidal wars.
For me it came about cause of the illithids trying to darken the Sun, wars caused by psionics inspiring defiling, ecogolicla destruciton and rmapant mutation, etc

folk cna use whatever ideas they wish, for Athas' past and critter types 

Perosnally I think the devils etc are merely shut out since the apocalpyse, along with all other Astral travellers, a few maybe trapped here and there form ancient times, but realizing they are cut off from their home plane, if they get otu all they'd do is return there as their goal because they know death on Athas is a true final death due to no link to the Astral!

Folk if they cna should get a look at the weird critters in the 3 Dark Sun monster compendiums, weird frog-lizard crossbreeds (Dagoran, iirc?) and all kinds of horrors, muhaha.
Re-skinnning works fine, BUT, Dark Sun critters are always nastier/stranger than before.


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