# Puppet Master



## GamerRay (Oct 30, 2008)

*Note: This class is currently undergoing a major revision. To see its progress, refer to the conversation between Kisanji and me, starting at post 11. And don't hesitate to give your input and ideas!*

I've been mulling over the idea of a puppeteer class for awhile now. I've never designed a class before, but I've always liked the idea of controlling a minion that was more of an extension of yourself than a creature. 

As I imagine the class, it'd be a "melee" controller/striker, with the puppet being up in the melee range while the puppeteer stood in the back, controlling it with strings (or psychically). 

The 2 would share damage or have separate pools, and the puppeteer would have abilities outside of its puppet, while the latter would perhaps be built like a swiss army knife, basically ending in a powerful mixture of arcane magic and "modern" technology.

This class is loosely based off of Kankuro from Naruto, with influences from Ogre Battle 64 and Puppet Master movies. However, note that I'm in no way bound to following these. Naruto is just a rough idea of how I'd like the puppet to act (as far as the body being packed with weaponry is concerned). No chakra strings, useless master (only there to control), or even puppet abilities need to strictly follow it. It is inspiration, and nothing more.

*To-Do List (updated 11/5/08):
*[sblock]
-Finalize features (nearly there)
-At-Wills
-Figure out how dolls will be used
-Encounters
-Dailies
-Utilities
-add more to the to-do list
[/sblock]

Class info and stats:
[sblock]
Role: Controller/Striker. While the puppeteer’s own abilities make him a dangerous controller, the puppets he uses are strikers.
Power Source: Arcane. [flavor text]
Key Abilities: Intelligence, Dexterity, Charisma.
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, Leather
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, Simple Ranged, Military Ranged *[should weapons be usable? since his fingers need to stay free and nimble]*
Implements: Gloves

Hit Points at 1st level: 12 + Constitution score.
Hit Points gained/level: 5.
Healing Surges: 7 + Con modifier

Trained Skills: stealth, acrobatics, arcana...

Build Options: Doll Builder, String Weaver[/sblock]

Features:
[sblock]    [FONT=&quot]♦[/FONT] Doll Powers: A puppeteer may only use powers with the doll keyword through any eligible, actively controlled puppet. 

[FONT=&quot]♦[/FONT] Doll User: A puppeteer uses arcane strings to control summoned puppets. There is no limit to the amount of summoned dolls. 
All dolls are considered unconscious when they are summoned. A puppeteer can control a doll for as long as he wishes, and can dismiss control as a free action. Dolls are subject to the maximum total range of your Ephemeral Strings (see below). However, any doll that is not actively controlled (see below) is considered unconscious. 
You can only actively control one doll for every weapon slot you possess; every doll you control reduces the number of string powers you can activate at one time by one. A doll which is reduced to 0 HP is removed from play.

[FONT=&quot]♦[/FONT] Ephemeral Strings: Your powers operate based on arcane strings formed from your own energy. Although they form a visible line between you and any of your effects, they are entirely illusory; they have no effect on their own, and they cannot be used, moved, damaged or affected in any way by anyone other than you. The DC to spot your strings is (15 + 1/2 class level + Dex modifier). Your strings are considered a conjuration for any effects, such as dispel magic, that intentionally try to affect them, but can be summoned again at will as a minor action (see powers: Class features, below).
Your arcane strings have a maximum range. 
  When you first create your Puppeteer, choose either Dexterity or Intelligence: the distance your strings can extend is equal to this score + one half your class level. You may add the bonus of any implement used to this range. When controlling multiple string effects or dolls, your total combined length may not exceed your maximum range. Unless stated otherwise, you can have one active string power for every weapon slot you possess; every active string power reduces the number of dolls you can actively control at one time.

[FONT=&quot]♦[/FONT] School of Puppetry: Choose one of the following schools and add its bonus to your own.

Augmentation Specialist: You have chosen to focus on the composition of your puppets, honing each into a graceful and well-tuned machine of death. Between turns, you may choose to make opportunity attacks with your doll (centered on its square) instead of yourself.

[This school would emphasize the puppets’ use as giant flying pointy things; it would be more suitable for a striker. This school would provide enhancements to encounter/utility powers that beefed up damage or put harmful effects on opponents, using the doll keyword. ]

String Theorist: You have chosen to focus on the magical composition of your arcane strings, allowing your control over the battlefield and your dolls to increase. Whenever you use a move action, your doll can move two squares or stand up.

[This school would emphasize puppets’ potential use in battlefield control and distraction. As such, it would be more suitable for controllers. Dolls would receive benefits that focused on these aspects of their design. Encounter/utility powers juiced up would be string-based abilities, such as those that controlled allies, corpses or enemies]
  [/sblock]

Class Abilities:
[sblock]Ephemeral Strings: Attach Strings    Puppeteer feature
_Glowing, ghostly strings stretch out from your hands and attach to your puppet._
At will ♦ Arcane, Implement
Minor Action
Target: One doll that is not being actively controlled.
Effect: The target is no longer considered unconscious, and you actively control the doll. The doll gains a bonus to all attacks and defenses equal to your implement bonus. This power ends at the end of your next turn.
Sustain Minor: A puppeteer can sustain all uses of this power as a minor action.
Special: If you have just used another action to summon the intended target, you may activate this power as a free action.

Ephemeral Strings: As Real As They Need To Be    Puppeteer feature
_On their way to the caves, the puppeteer assured his companions his strings wouldn’t get in their way._
At Will ♦ Arcane, Implement
Free Action
Target: Personal
Your strings turn from illusory to substantial, allowing you to use "String" abilities. You may revert your strings to being illusory as a free action. At the end of the String ability's effect, the string return to being illusory automatically.[/sblock]

*Concept Art*
My brother-in-law has been working on a few drawings to accompany the class when it's finished. While this one isn't quite what I had in mind in terms of size and function, it does give a rough idea of what I'm seeing this class as.

[sblock]



Ignore the blind thing, puppet size, the puppet's left leg, and the buzz-saw. The beauty is that it's a crude creation, but still sinister and deadly. And you have the master behind it doing all the controlling.[/sblock]

*Everything below this line is part of the original build. Many things will be implemented from this list, but likely with some differences.*
========================================================
Abilities so far

[sblock]Puppet Master

At Will:

Class At-Will: [unnamed]
_With a quick wiggle of the fingers, the link between master and puppet can be seen._
Your strings turn from insubstantial to substantial, allowing you to use "String" abilities. At the end of the String ability's effect, the string return to insubstantial as a free action.

*Big thanks to* *Kisanji Arael for this idea.*

Power Infused Blade
_The puppet thrusts its open hand forward as a blade, coated in a bit of your own magic, emerges from its palm._
Mod1 vs AC
1d10 + Mod1 necrotic damage. This counts as a basic attack.

*I looked at the generic warlock and wizard attacks, and they are 1d10 and 2d4 + mod, so I think this is fairly balanced. I didn't want to add an effect because I want it to be a basic stab, but it can be used as an OA.*

Point Blank Shot
_The fingertips on its right hand bend backwards, revealing several tiny cannons._
Ranged 2
Mod1 vs AC
2d8+ Mod1 damage if enemy is adjacent, 1d6 + Mod2 damage otherwise.

*This seems odd at first (especially the range), but what I'm trying to do with this class is to make the user think. I'm hoping to make this ability a bit overpowered, but with the drawback of provoking an opportunity attack from all adjacent enemies. Thus this can be fired from the safety of distance, but with reduced damage, or you can get in their face and fire, but risk damage in return.
*
Icy Fist
_As its fist clenches, small tubes spraying freezing air emerge from its knuckles._
Mod1 vs Ref
1d6+Mod1 cold damage, and the target is slowed (save ends).

Clipping
_The puppet hurls itself at the legs of the enemy, knocking them to the ground._
Mod2 vs Ref
1d6+Mod1(or Mod2?) damage, the target is knocked prone, and the puppet moves to one of the three squares on the opposite side of the enemy (this does not provoke and opportunity attack).
*
Obviously this is part 2 of the control ability, and it mostly exists to grant combat advantage, and will be especially useful with a rogue in the group.
*
Utility:
Return
_With a yank of the strings, the puppet returns to its master, using its momentum to make some room._
The puppet is quickly pulled back to an unoccupied square next to its master. This does not provoke an opportunity attack. You may then slide an adjacent enemy 1 square.
*I'm unsure about the puppet provoking an OA. On one hand there will probably have been damage dealt to the master, but perhaps this should be a last resort, making you debate on whether to gamble damage or shift away and hope the party helps you*.[/sblock]

I've also brainstormed a few encounter powers and dailies. I fear that my grenade concept may either be a great idea or easily breakable. If it's a bad idea, grenades can just fail to detonate if they don't hit their intended target. Keep in mind these aren't assigned a proper level, modifier, or damage yet.

[sblock]    *ENCOUNTER:*
   Still not sure how these should work...

  Note:  If a grenade fails to hit its target, you may
  -Retrieve it at the end of combat (is there a point?)
  -Stand in the square and spend a standard action to retrieve it, replenishing the power.
  -Spend a standard action to detonate it? Only available to Controller path? Perhaps have a few controller grenades have a special "retrieval" option for controllers?


Freezing Grenade
_A section of its forearm opens up, revealing a tube with some sort of stone wedged in it. There’s a rush of air, and the stone is hurled through the air, exploding on impact and covering the area with water that quickly freezes the feet of all those caught in its blast._
  Standard – Ranged Burst 3 within 5 squares
  Mod2 vs Reflex
  Creatures struck by the grenade become immobilized (save ends). The affected area becomes difficult terrain until the end of your next turn.

Sticky Grenade
_An arm cannon opens and fires a black, sticky substance at the target. A quiet, unsettling ticking can be heard when it lands…_
  Mod2 vs Reflex
  Hit: If a creature is hit by the grenade may make a saving throw at the end of its turn to remove it and throw it up to 2 squares away. When it fails its first saving throw, or any creature in the space the grenade is thrown in, takes 2d10 + Mod2 fire damage.
  Miss: The grenade lands 2 squares behind the target, or on a creature directly behind them. The same rule applies.
Caltrops
_The puppet’s mouth opens and several tiny spikes litter the ground in front of it._
  Target: One square in front of puppet.
  Any enemy moving through that square takes 1d10 + Mod2 damage, is slowed (save ends) and takes 5 ongoing damage (save ends).

Smoke Grenade
_The area fills with smoke, obscuring all vision._
  Ranged burst 1
  Creatures in the zone have total concealment, but are blind. This zone blocks line of site.
  Sustain Minor

Icy Blast
_Small tubes emerge from the puppet’s torso, spraying the area with a freezing gas._
  Mod 1 vs Reflex         Burst 1
  Hit: 1d8 + mod cold damage and target is slowed.

Hypnotic Gaze
_The puppet’s eyes begin to swirl and the enemy gets sleepy. Very sleepy._
  Mod vs Will
  Target is asleep (save ends).

*DAILY:*

Poison Doll
_You pull a small, wilting doll from your belt and send it after an enemy._
  Mod2 vs Ref
  Hit: Enemy takes 2d8 + Mod 2 ongoing poison damage (save ends)

Horrific Illusion
_The enemy runs in terror as if it’d just seen a ghost… or a dragon._
  Target: One creature adjacent to you or your puppet.
  Mod vs Will
  Hit: 2d6 + Mod psychic damage, and target runs in fear, moving its speed + your Mod away from you. This provokes opportunity attacks.

Friend or Foe?
_It’s amazing what one can accomplish with some mirrors and a clever spell._
  Target: One enemy within 5 squares of you.
  Until the end of its next turn, target enemy acts as though you are its ally.

*UTILITY:*
Return
_With a yank of the strings, the puppet returns to its master, using its momentum to make some room. _The puppet provokes an opportunity attack from any enemies adjacent to its original square, and is quickly pulled back to an unoccupied square next to its master. You may slide an adjacent enemy 1 square.

Two Heads Are Better Than One
_You watch where you’re going while your puppet watches where you’ve been._
  At the beginning of a surprise round, roll 1d20. If it’s 10 or above, you aren’t surprised.

[/sblock]

(For the most part, you can probably ignore the mods. They are just placeholders right now until I can figure out what stat should be used)
Thanks in advance for any input.


What has been suggested so far:
[sblock]-When building the puppet, you begin by choosing 1 of several puppet "kits" (still a rough idea, but very unique and could be fun).
-Range will either be a static number between 5 and 15 + both main modifiers (probably int+dex)
-Line of Sight is required.
-Having a shared HP pool, with the master taking increased damage.
-Having separate HP pools.
-The puppet master is very skilled at hiding and controlling from the shadows.
-Using gloves as his implement (still unsure, as this closes off glove and weapon options)
-Puppet abilities based around his parts (knives, bombs, alchemical items...)
-Paragon and Epic paths that allow the puppet master to be more joined with his puppet, either by having mechanical parts, or becoming one with his puppet (still very open to ideas). Could also gain more control skills, damage abilities...
-Having the master/puppet follow the outline of the beast master, or base puppet attacks off of master's 2 main attributes.
-The master has a set of abilities as well, mostly for when the action gets too close to him (such as severing the link to the puppet and using the strings on an enemy).
-The strings can be used for tripping, grabbing, and being used to damage enemies.
-Stats: Int for controller, Dex for striker, Wis as a secondary for both.
-The master can aid allies by "controlling" them as well. Boosting attacks or defenses, or anything else you all can think of[/sblock]


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## chronoplasm (Oct 30, 2008)

Sounds more psionic to me, with strings being 'brain waves' but able to manifest themselves physically for some attacks.

*Attack Command* Puppeteer Attack 1
At-Will. Psionic
Standard Action
Ranged 10
Target: One creature.
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: Slide the creature a number of squares equal to 1 plus your charisma modifier. That creature either makes a basic attack against one of its allies or it makes a basic attack against itself.

Also, this guy should be able to use corpses as puppets. They are easier to use because they don't resist. 
Maybe those can be two different builds? One type of puppeteer uses living puppets, the other uses dead ones.


However you do it though, you have a cool basic premise for a class. Run with the idea in any way you see fit.


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## GamerRay (Oct 30, 2008)

While sitting in a waiting room today, I came up with a few rough ideas for abilities. One of which was likes yours.

Corpse Puppet
_The strings on one of your hands detaches from your puppet and work their way to a fallen enemy._
You control target enemy (still unsure on how health and defenses should work). So long as you control the enemy, you may only use your at wills and the enemy's at wills. You may use your Standard, Move, and Minor actions using either your puppet, the enemy, or both (only 1 standard action, but either puppet can use it). You may re-establish full control of your puppet as a minor action.

I haven't posted this yet because it's still rough, and I'd like my abilities to have a smidge more finality to them.

And although I've only played 4th edition, from what I read of psionics they do seem pretty similar. I thought about just having the master be a psychic, but I've come up with a few abilities so far that rely on being able to make the strings turn tangible (one of which I've named Birds on a Wire... it's still in the works, however).

And I really appreciate your power suggestion. I've given some brief thought to paragon abilities, and I've considered making him able to exercise more control over enemies. So I'm definitely storing yours in my potential powers section!


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## Kreaf (Oct 30, 2008)

Hmm from the powers you have writen, it reads more like a "robot" or "construct" in D&D terms than a real puppet or living being.
As I read the first few sentence I thought of a kind of mind controller. But it doesn't sound bad. 

Also the string thing can be a problem. Does he have to have a line of effect to his puppet?

Maybe you could ad a construction kit as "build options" at character creation. Like with the Warforged.
Have 4 or 5 options the player has to chose from (build his puppet) should the puppet have a Armor/Canon/Granates etc. Would make it a bit of complex to balance in the first place, but would make for great custimation.

For the puppeteer, make the strings really a kind of "power chain" in the first few levels he can use them to controle the puppet and deliver like lightning damage. Later on he could use them to enhance his own life from the life of his foes. Transfer energy (temp HP, AC etc) from enemies to his puppet stuff like that.
Give the puppet a own HP pool which can be fuild from the pupeteer (like the powers presented for the beastmaster) and a Ritual that lets rebuild, reconstruct etc the puppet.

Just throwing in random thoughts so...

Edit: post was targeted on the first post... you both answered while I was typing ^^


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## GamerRay (Oct 30, 2008)

I guess essentially, it is more of a construct than a traditional puppet. 

As for having line of sight, I'm still debating. If I had my way, I would say that it would require sight to at least 1 corner of the puppet's square, and each could share a movement (master moves 2, puppet moves 3). However, that is probably something I wont be able to officially iron out until a playtest. As I said, I want this class to make people think, and reward skilled combat (since if this were possible, a smart puppeteer could be devastating).

And I like your "kit" idea. I'm still not quite sure how to open up build options, since the closest class I can mimic right now is the Wizard with a mix of Beastmaster. However, perhaps giving a number of options would help cater to various playstyles. As of now I'm not sure if I want to give up the puppet's "doll of doom" feel (where his entire body is just a house for weaponry), but I think I may try to integrate a build style when I get this thing past the rough stage.

Thanks for your helpful comments, Kreaf!


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## Kreaf (Oct 30, 2008)

Your welcome.

I think the "Doll of Doom" would fit perfectly to a gnome engeneer. But again at the moment it is kind of mixed up between a "Psychic" who controls the otherwise lifeless puppet, a "Engeneer" who controls like via remote a construct and a "Necromancer" who takes control over the bodys of dead foes...

I could see a combination of "psychic" and "necromancer" but can't see a combination with the engeneer thing... 

Also you could carry over the lack of a "swiss army knive" type of construct to a doll equipped with the magic of his master. (Just refluff it. Instead of a mechanical knife use a kind of mind blade...)


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## GamerRay (Oct 30, 2008)

Well, the balance I was going for was a psychic who controls a mechanized puppet. The puppet cannot act on its own, and there is more to the link between the puppet and its master than just strings (a sort of psychic connection).

The idea for controlling the dead or other characters will probably come later, possibly as a paragon path (as your strength grows, you learn to control more than your own puppet).

I'm also thinking of having the puppeteer infuse a part of himself in the puppet through a creation ritual, so that the puppeteer can't just control things willy-nilly.

I'd really like to try sticking to the idea of the puppet being one mess of weapons, but it depends on the controllers skills (control or damage) as to what he crafts for the puppet.

And I don't think I mentioned it, but the puppet will be roughly the size of an 8-13 year old child. So it's not a little marionette, but something with a size capable of storing weaponry and being believable that it could do damage to a dragon (as opposed to a 1ft tall thing with a 2 inch blade...).

edit: for a basic idea of how I see the class working, watch this video:[sblock] [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rXtOmqcRY4[/ame]    [/sblock]

I got my inspiration for the class from Ogre Battle 64, the Puppet Master movie series, and this fight scene in Naruto. My brother-in-law is currently working on some art for it that will better capture what I envision the class to look like; a mixture of arcane art and "modern" technology.


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## GamerRay (Nov 2, 2008)

I added some more encounters/dailies to the second spoiler (now becoming my "work in progress" section for the time being). Please especially give input on the grenades... I like the direction they're going but I feel like I'm treading a line with them.

Also changed the at-will Small Blade to Power Infused Blade, since it was a stretch to believe a magical machination could do broadsword damage with a light blade. Now its infused with the master's own magical energy, allowing for a 1d10 damage roll.


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## Kisanji Arael (Nov 3, 2008)

You know, the scariest concept of puppet-master to me is one that controls his enemies, not a doll. May not be what you're going for, but I thought I'd bring it up.

I've actually thought an inordinate amount about these concepts (I'm kind of writing a book) - strings and manipulation are something you have to be very careful with, because if you open up too many possibilities, then the imagination knows that too much has been left unsaid, but if you limit yourself too heavily, it seems purposefully confined. A lot of my ideas probably won't be where you're headed, but if you're interested, just say so. I'll try to check back in a few hours.


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## GamerRay (Nov 3, 2008)

I'd love to hear your ideas. Granted if it's not the direction I'm going I may not make room for them all, but they will definitely be considered.


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## Kisanji Arael (Nov 4, 2008)

*Pardon me while I wax philosophical*

Okay, so to start out, I’m probably just going to spout some theory at you. I don’t have a lot of time tonight (and I’m going to be busy tomorrow because, well you know, it’s Nov. 4), so I’ll see what I can get out. Okay, now knowing that you’re working off of the basic Naruto premise is helpful, because it lets me know where your center of focus is located. First off, concerning Naruto, remember that all the puppets used by Kankuro were not actually made by him, but by a master. Plus, remember that every series published by Jump is incredibly overpowered. Therefore, you should ask yourself to what degree you will and won’t be following that continuum.

Now, let us consider puppetry for a moment. Even at its most basic, there are three areas that must be effectively considered – the puppeteer, the strings and the puppet. Put another way, it is the continuum between the _controller_, the _controlling _and the _controlled_. 

Lets start with the controlled, because it’s the easiest to deal with. In any case, there are a limited number of things which can ever be controlled; I’ll be discussing the control over enemy, ally, the neutral (corpses), the tool (dolls) and the self. It is not necessarily so that the self can be controlled; this depends on the systems you, as game designer, set in place. The only advantage of controlling yourself is to push beyond your own natural limitations. However, for all the other categories, the advantage is tactical: someone else is hurt, and the controller is left unharmed. For this reason, I oppose the suggestion of a joint hit point pool; check out the artificer preview instead.  You have thus far addressed corpses and dolls, and in limiting yourself such, you are confined to only a small portion of your options. Controlling your enemies is far more satisfying. . .

_And then, looking at his hands, Devon realized to his horror that they were bound by tiny black threads, which ended at the other man’s fingertips._

A puppeteer should not be a mere bruiser, even if 4E seems to imply that to be the way one should approach it. He is, as you said, a *controller/striker*. But this is not just so: _rather, the puppeteer is a controller, and should have abilities reflecting that, while the puppet is the striker_. But I’ve already said that not only dolls (tools) but also allies as well should be considered. A puppeteer, then, should be able to turn anyone into a striker, like a competent bard. He should be capable of enabling others. 
I dislike that all of the at-will abilities you have thus far are only tools for the dolls. Consider all the other possibilities of what a puppeteer can do. 

Why is why I to strings: strings are what bind the controlled to the controller; they are the necessary link. And I, for the record, am highly against the Naruto notion of chakra strings: real string or nothing. Needles too, if you can put them in. Of course, make them easy to reattach, or really tough to cut, but still. At the surface, the two easiest things to do with something you’ve bound with string are to move it or make it stop. Consider abilities that let you keep an enemy from moving farther away once he’s been bound. That’s a controller’s ability. Consider taking control of one of your allies to give him a bonus to attack or damage. Consider strangulation (on that note: consider watching the episode of Hellsing where the butler goes badass with a couple hundred feet of piano wire). The puppet should always be a *competent distraction* leading the enemy away from the puppeteer; systems in place should be designed such that ignoring the puppet is what changes him from a distraction to deadly; give the puppeteer immediate interrupts that can substitute for atttacks of opportunity. At the same time, there should be some reason why the *puppeteer is himself valuable*. Or, put another way, would the party care if they just had the puppet: if so, then *you’ve done something wrong*.

One last note: have you seen Stardust? Okay, if not, what the hell are you doing here? Go out right now and rent yourself an awesome movie. But if you have, there’s something which very closely resembled puppetry in the last scene. In it, you had someone being controlled and showing very excellent swordplay. This shows that not only does the puppet have to have a skill, but the puppeteer does as well. It wouldn’t just be about putting a sword inside your puppet, like how it’s sometimes shown in Naruto. Against a skilled swordsman, a puppeteer would need to know how to get inside defenses – he would have to be competent at dueling as well. I really wish we still had the perform skill, because it would work really well for this.

Oh, and as far as abilities for the puppeteer himself go: defensive and evasive short range, hindering mid-range. I know I would never take anything except Eladrin for this class, and not just for the stat bonuses: I would Fey step the hell away whenever I got near anything. But I should never have to; because I should be able to trip them before they reach me, then pull my puppet to me and engage him in combat that way. 

Okay, that's all the time I have for today. I'd love to help you out more; tell me what you want. But I don't just want to be power-balancing a bunch of powers for a doll, so keep that in mind, too.


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## GamerRay (Nov 4, 2008)

Wow, that's the most thought I've seen anyone put into someone else's class. Thank you.

Here are just some initial thoughts I have:
[sblock]
-Remember that this isn't meant to be based off Naruto. I'm just taking a basic idea from it and other sources and trying to make it my own. The idea of having an array of weapons is pulled from that (compared to the other 2 where the dolls had 1 ability), but I'm not trying to do like what I've seen done with World of Warcraft classes.

-I've had mixed reactions from others about the puppet being a mechanical tool with weaponry that is still controlled by the puppeteer. As of now, I'm still settled on keeping it that way. Not only because of Naruto, but also because the Puppet Master movies, and Ogre Battle 64, got away with doing it to a small degree and I personally loved how it all worked together. But for sake of this game, I'm outfitting him with a wider array of weaponry. (note that I'm not disregarding your input there. 

I respect it because you obviously are investing part of yourself in this project and I appreciate it. However, I'm still not fully convinced that having the sole focus be on the puppeteer is right. _But_, you are totally right about the "could we just take the puppet?" idea, and that will stick with me as I work on this).

-The strings. I see what you're saying about "real or nothing," and will certainly be thinking on that one. Perhaps a true psychic connection would be best, but the puppeteer still acts as he would with the strings. That would also add to the decision making part, as it could take a standard or minor action to reestablish control of the puppet.

-The controlled. I like what you did with me aiding allies with my abilities. A quick idea for it; 
~~~~I split my control to aid an ally. I'm only able to use at-wills for my puppet, but while the link holds the ally gets +x (+y if I went the controller path). Reestablishing the full link to my puppet takes a minor action.
I rather like that, as it opens me up for more than just wielding a beat stick.

-How important should both the puppet and master be? I hadn't thought about it before, and now I'm struggling to figure it out. I don't want the puppeteer to be just a psychic controlling something fun, nor do I want the puppet to turn into the Batman villain where the person was sort of "there," while the puppet was strapped with a Tommy gun. I had originally envisioned it as a close-knit bond, perhaps due to insanity or some deep understanding (fluff and lore are on the back burner right now), to where the puppeteer relies on his puppet for damage, but still able to hold his own should the puppet be lost.

-The puppeteer is the controller, the doll is the striker. I like that idea, alot. And at this point I'm on the fence on whether they should split the control load, or if it should mostly be placed on the master. Because they are my little babies, I'm really liking my grenade idea. It's still rough, but somehow I should be able to find a way to make them evenly powered, but still unique. 

Perhaps they should be a daily, but have X number of uses. But then that means that if a DM uses short dungeons, they can go nuts. But if they do a large dungeon, they may be out of steam for the climactic boss battle.[/sblock]

What do I want?
[sblock]At this point, I'm trying to fill in abilities. Of course that can't be done until I figure out a direction, can it? As I said, I'm still settled on a good chunk of my original idea for how they should work (with more emphasis on the master now, as he really should have his own importance).

-Many reactions have been that the master should be psychic. As of now, it should be assumed that control is established, essentially, telepathically (unless I can find a way to make the solid strings not hinder my allies, or be able to be cut easily). 

So for his short-range defense and evasion, and mid-range control, I'd say you can safely think up abilities for those. 

-Why would someone become a puppet master? Do they suffer from an insanity? Family tradition? Do they make a deal with some god to give them control (and are given a doll that is specifically tied to the controller's soul)? These are questions I've had a hard time deciding on, and input is always appreciated.

-How should HP be calculated for the 2? I'm convinced they shouldn't share a pool, but I'm not sure how to make it otherwise. The master should be squishy, but the puppet should probably fall in the range of a rogue or ranger. But is that too much? 

And should the master have any healing abilities? I can't figure out what he could do, other than sacrifice his own health to do some sort of mending (1 master= 2 puppet health, or he uses a surge to heal his own value to the puppet).

-Puppet damage abilities. I can go nuts thinking up all the devices that can be made to control, but what about damage? I don't want him to go too "current" with his technology. Grenades are as far as I'm wanting to go (whirling saw blades have been suggested, but that's too much). 

-Grenades. THEY DON'T FEEL RIGHT! I would love for them to be something totally unique to the class, but I feel like they're going the path of the wizard. My best idea is that they can detonate on anything behind their target, or can be grabbed and used by someone (explode on non-puppet target vs reflex?). 

This, of course, would fall into the idea of good or bad, as enemies and allies could pick them up and throw them, but who knows how far they'd, if at all? And perhaps they could even be thrown a certain distance before exploding. 1d4, 1 equals detonation in the current square, 2 is adjacent square, etc. But how easily could that be broken? Or pointless?

-Master abilities. He needs them. I have some down, but if I don't use any actual strings, some will be tossed out (including my Birds on a Wire... -tear-). He should definately be able to control or get away, without being too slippery (poor user tactics or good enemy tactics should be rightly rewarded). 

Also, I'm starting to see him as a psychic and illusionist (suggested on the Wizards boards), able to hide, blend in, or at a greater master inflict horrific visions on his foes. If this is too jumbled the illusionist idea can be discarded, but it does add some fun-ness to it (perhaps a paragon path?).[/sblock]

*Keep the ideas coming!* I love the input I get from people, both positive and critical. I truly do think over everything suggested, and people will probably notice many of their own ideas being implemented (even if slightly) into the progressing build.


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## Kisanji Arael (Nov 4, 2008)

Ooh, what if one of the at-wills does nothing but change the strings from solid to insubstantial, and then other powers could be based around that (piano wire comes to mind)? Or, no, not an at-will, a class feature that functions like an at will, like the barbarian has? Or maybe something like this:

Name:
Although the puppet master's strings made of arcane energy, many of his abilities function as though the strings were substantial. As a [this space intentionally left blank] action, the strings shift from being insubstantial to being tangible for the purposes of another power. While they are functioning in this manner, the puppet master is incapable of controlling his puppets as normal. His movement is also limited: every square he moves away from the target counts as two for purposes of movement.

After the associated power has expired, the strings return to arcane energy as a free action.

Oh, and I think you should clarify the limitations on the puppet. How far away can he move from the puppet master (my initial thought is 15+Int or Dex; progressing at 11th and 21st)? And other stuff like that.


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## GamerRay (Nov 4, 2008)

Ooooh, that's actually a sweet idea! Or even insubstantial (psychic strings) to solid, acting as sort of a "surprise!" element that enemies wouldn't expect (if the DM can ignore is semi-omniscience).

Edit: And I've been battling with the distance. I'm sold on Line of Sight being required (enemies and cover under 5 feet wont affect it), but I've gone from Mod1 + Mod2 (int + dex, probably), to a solid 10, or 10+both mods. 

What do you think? I want the puppet to be "attached" to his master, so there needs to be a fair limitation.

edit: Added the ability to the OP. It's still basic right now and will take a bit of work, but it's there!

Class At-Will: [unnamed]
Free Action
_With a quick wiggle of the fingers, the link between master and puppet can be seen._
Your strings turn from insubstantial to substantial, allowing you to use "String" abilities. At the end of the String ability's effect, the string return to insubstantial as a free action.


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## Kisanji Arael (Nov 4, 2008)

This space reserved for a really big post. Seriously, I think I just figured out how to do this within the established bounds of 4e.


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## Kisanji Arael (Nov 4, 2008)

First things first, the power versions that both of us wrote up last night for the strings won’t work because insubstantial already means something (and specifically, insubstantial things can be hurt). So I’ve tried out a very slight alteration.

Here’s what I came up with – take from it what you will.
[sblock]
♦ First, set up your dolls as daily powers. This way, you have several precedents to draw upon in terms of power (e.g. - Flaming Sphere). Plus, you don't have to deal with the weight of your doll.
♦ I’ve also come up with two sub-classes for the class (one striker and one controller) that you can use if you like the idea, and thought that in addition to any standard abilities these might provide, each puppet could have additional abilities based on the puppeteer’s focus.
♦ I suggest that you set-up a separate doll keyword for the powers you intend for your dolls to use, or else there is by RAW no difference between which powers your dolls can be using and which your character can.
♦ I also wrote out a bunch of hopefully loophole free rules for class features for you. I tried to make it sound as professional as possible.
[/sblock]

Note: Oh yeah, I’m gonna be using puppeteer instead of puppet master. It jives better with me, and I don’t think a 1st level anything should be called master, unless you mean a young man under the age of 18. Oh, and this is still going to need some cleaning up in places to conform to standard format.
[sblock]
Role: Controller/Striker. While the puppeteer’s own abilities make him a dangerous controller, the puppets he uses are strikers.
Power Source: Arcane. [flavor text]
Key Abilities: Intelligence, Dexterity, _Wisdom or Charisma_ [not both, mind you. Wisdom had already been suggested, so I wrote it in here, but insofar as I think force of will should be important for this class, and insofar as bluff and intimidate might be useful for you, I think Charisma fits better]
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, Leather
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, Simple Ranged, Military Ranged
Implements: Gloves *[I reallly, really like this]*

Hit Points at 1st level: 12 + Constitution score. [I used the rogue and warlock as a basis for comparison]
Hit Points gained/level: 5 [Again].
Healing Surges: 7 + Con modifier [the idea here being that some of the class’s powers would need to heal the dolls, and using healing surges seems to be the standard way to do that]

Trained Skills: [dunno]

Build Options: Doll Builder, String Weaver
[/sblock]

Class Features:
[sblock]
♦ Doll Powers: A puppeteer may only use powers with the doll keyword from the origin square of any actively controlled doll (see below). 

♦ Doll User: A puppeteer uses arcane strings to control the dolls summoned with his daily powers. He may summon as many dolls into play as he wishes. 
	All dolls are considered unconscious when they are summoned. A puppeteer can control a doll for as long as he wishes, and can dismiss control as a free action. Dolls are subject to the maximum total range of your Ephemeral Strings, as noted below. However, any doll that is not actively controlled for a full turn (see below) is considered unconscious. 
	You can only actively control one doll for every weapon slot you possess; every doll you control reduces the number of string powers you can activate at one time by one.  A doll which is reduced to 0 HP is removed from play.

♦ Ephemeral Strings: Your powers operate based on arcane strings formed from your own energy. Although they form a visible line between you and any of your effects, they are entirely illusory; they have no effect on their own, and they cannot be used, moved, damaged or affected in any way by anyone other than you. The DC to spot your strings is (15 + 1/2 class level + Dex modifier). Your strings are considered a conjuration for any effects, such as dispel magic, that intentionally try to affect them, but can be summoned again at will as a minor action (see powers: Class features, below).
Your arcane strings have a maximum range. Choose either your Dexterity or Intelligence score: the distance your string can extend is equal to this score + one half your class level.  You may add the bonus of any implement used to this range. When controlling multiple string effects or dolls, your total length may not exceed your maximum range. Unless stated otherwise, you can have as one active string power for every weapon slot you possess; every active string power reduces the number of dolls you can actively control at one time.

♦ School of Puppetry: Choose one of the following schools and add its bonus to your own.

Augmentation Specialist: You have chosen to focus on the composition of your puppets, honing each into a graceful and well-tuned machine of death. Between turns, you may choose to make opportunity attacks with your doll (centered on its square) instead of yourself.

[This school would emphasize the puppets’ use as giant flying pointy things; it would be more suitable for a striker. This school would provide enhancements to encounter/utility powers that beefed up damage or put harmful effects on opponents, using the doll keyword. ]

String Theorist: You have chosen to focus on the magical composition of your arcane strings, allowing your control over the battlefield and your dolls to increase. Whenever you use a move action, your doll can move two squares or stand up.

[This school would emphasize puppets’ potential use in battlefield control and distraction. As such, it would be more suitable for controllers. Dolls would receive benefits that focused on these aspects of their design. Encounter/utility powers juiced up would be string-based abilities, such as those that controlled allies, corpses or enemies]
[/sblock]




Puppeteer Powers:
Class Features: The Puppeteer's ephemeral strings class feature functions as two distinct powers.
[sblock]
Ephemeral Strings: Attach Strings    Puppeteer feature
_Glowing, ghostly strings stretch out from your hands and attach to your puppet._
At will ♦ Arcane, Implement
Minor Action
Target: One doll that is not being actively controlled.
Effect: The target is no longer considered unconscious, and you actively control the doll. The doll gains a bonus to all attacks and defenses equal to your implement bonus. This power ends at the end of your next turn.
Sustain Minor: A puppeteer can sustain all uses of this power as a minor action.
Special: If you have just used another action to summon the intended target, you may activate this power as a free action.

Ephemeral Strings: As Real As They Need To Be    Puppeteer feature
_On their way to the caves, the puppeteer assured his companions his strings wouldn’t get in their way._
At Will ♦ Arcane, Implement
Free Action
Target: Personal
Your strings turn from illusory to substantial, allowing you to use "String" abilities. You may revert your strings to being illusory as a free action. At the end of the String ability's effect, the string return to being illusory automatically. 
[/sblock]
-------------
Note on other powers: 

If you like this, then you should set up about half of the at-wills as doll weaponry, and half as all-purpose string abilities, such as tripping or binding. 

The same would go for encounter and utility powers. I think there should be powers that specifically give more hit points to the doll. Oh, on that note, go check out Dragon #365; it has the artificer preview, which I think is a very similar concept and will help you tremendously.

And the daily powers would just be doll summons (if there were one or two that weren’t at some higher levels, it wouldn’t kill anyone, but whatever; set up each doll with specific abilities. I was thinking a format like this:
[Doll name]
Flavor Text
# of temporary hit points (no bloodied value, no surges)
AC & defenses [set up as the characters’ AC and defenses, but with bonuses]
Basic attacks:
Special Attacks: Possibly recharging attacks, like monsters have?

And lastly, one feat that functions like a power:
[sblock]
Emergency Repairs [Puppeteer]    Feat Power
Prerequisites: Must possess the Ephemeral Strings class feature.
Benefit: You gain Emergency Repairs as a daily power.
Emergency Repairs:
_“Good thing I was watching that one.”_
Daily ♦ Arcane, Doll, Implement, Healing
Immediate Interrupt
Target: One doll you are actively controlling
Effect: When an attack would cause one or more of the dolls you are currently controlling to be reduced to 0 HP, choose a doll and expend a healing surge. That doll is not destroyed. You do not gain the benefits of the healing surge. On your next turn, the doll gains hit points equal to your healing surge value.

Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each feat grants one more use of this power. [The special text here is why I set it up as a feat, and not as a power. However, there’s no reason that similar powers couldn’t exist in multiple places]
[/sblock]


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## GamerRay (Nov 4, 2008)

Man... I'm just blown away. I will admit that I was a bit concerned with deviating from my original idea, but I LOVE the direction you went here. I will get to work on implementing the ideas tonight, but I think you've really hit on something good there.

And many of the basic abilities I thought of for equipping the doll can easily be turned into numerous, smaller dolls. Freezing, entangling, explosives, knives, glue... 

I don't have much time to spend on it now, but if you come up with anything more, feel free to share!

And thanks man, you've been a huge help with this idea.

Random ideas as they come to me:
[sblock]edit: I did a bit of brainstorming about the dolls. I'm thinking of having dolls be dailies and encounters. Dailies would be dolls that would probably be completely spent and need to be rebuilt (a doll that sprays poison, has bombs, things like that), while the encounter dolls could have more basic functions like having knives, having an octopus-like ability to entangle an enemy in its limbs.

My reasoning for this is that I want the puppeteer (I've been calling him a master for sake of easy typing, but I agree with you) to be able to actually use his puppets in each encounter. I know I'm often afraid to use my dailies because I don't know if I'll regret it later. Thus I don't want the class to haul around a bunch of dolls they use in reservation, rather than really exploring what I think is the beauty of the class.

This is especially true for the striker build. Granted the master (perhaps "master can be a paragon, but for now we're stuck with it) can be equipped with some psychic-like attacks (see my Horrific Vision ability), but much of his strength would be drawn from puppet damage.

Also, what if the master were able to "draw" a puppet before a battle. He may have one of his basic striker dolls active for 5 minutes, but his speed is reduced by 2 (a rough idea, but it would let him have a chance to be a bit more diverse in strategies).

And in that same vein, perhaps he should be able to have an at-will doll. Just so that if all his enc/daily powers are blown, he can still rely on old-faithful. Fluff wise, perhaps it's the doll he originally trained with?

I'm a bit confused on a mechanic you designed.   *[FONT=&quot]You can only actively control one doll for every weapon slot you possess; every doll you control reduces the number of string powers you can activate at one time by one. [/FONT]*As I understand it, you only have 2 weapon slots, right? And later, you say   [FONT=&quot]*Unless stated otherwise, you can have one active string power for every weapon slot you possess; every active string power reduces the number of dolls you can actively control at one time. *For some reason I'm having a hard time figuring this one out. I can tell that its fairly limiting, I just don't know how.

 [/FONT]
[/sblock]

Let me know how those ideas strike you. I'm anxious to hear any other ideas you may have had about the class.


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## Kisanji Arael (Nov 5, 2008)

*"You have earned the new puppy that's coming with us to the White House."*

Lets address some stuff:
First off, you misspelled my name in your most recent edit of Post #1. Second off, why won’t this cough go away, and why do I post on D&D boards when I have multiple-page papers and group projects due the next day? Thirdly, concerning some points you’ve made:

♦ Should weapons be usable? I say yes, but mostly by the puppet, who can only use weapons (of the non-power variety) available to the puppet master. I plan to design some “disarming” abilities under the string category at some point, and either way, arming puppets with giant hammers is fun.
♦ Corpses as puppets: This should fall under string abilities, right?
♦ Re: post # 12:[sblock]
Why would someone become a puppet master? Leave it open; I’m serious. Anything you say limits the RP possibilities of anyone who might want to play the class. Of course, just like WotST, you can make paragon paths that show possibilities like madness, or special family skills, etc. Oh, also: I would say leave the illusionist and psychic thing from your last point alone.[/sblock]
♦ Re: post # 14: [sblock]
1. I agree with your comment on running out of dolls: there are two ways to deal with this. One can, as you suggest, make dolls available as encounter powers as well from low levels. Alternately, if you design dolls only as daily powers,  then make them unsummonable after battle and available for later? (to resummon a doll after it has been unsummoned, one must take a short rest). [Note: this must be A or B; both together are game-breaking.] In either case, I dislike the idea of an at-will doll, though I would be cool with using “controlling abilities” on non-ability dolls you bring into dungeons (think about it: the Cabbage-patch kids skip though the trap-infested hallway; each one makes it about five feet farther than the last before being blown to bits; after ten minutes of traumatizing horror and the Dryad bursting into tears, the puppeteer announces to the group: “Well, please remember the path my little friends found and which stones make buzz-saws come out of the floor. Fluff and string are easier to clean up.”) (Look forward to seeing this as an at-will in my next post, once my Thursday is finally, finally over). Part of the game mechanic of playing with puppeteers should be recognizing what happens when you run out of puppets. At that point, there should still be abilities available to you (aiding allies, controlling corpses or even enemies), but you have lost your strongest asset and you have to deal with the consequences. In either case, I think higher-leveled puppeteers should have encounter-dolls available to them, but that’s why they’re higher level puppeteers.
2. Please define “draw” or restate your point.
3. The weapon slot idea was, basically, to limit the number of dolls and active, hampering string powers available to a puppeteer to the number of hands he has, unless other abilities [I was thinking specifically – feats (1), paragon paths, epic destinies and mid/high-level abilities that summon massive amounts of weak dolls] allow him to exceed this number. My wording might sound redundant, but I’m pretty sure it’s logical. As in, your basic Joe the Plumber puppeteer (God, I won’t be able to stop saying that for weeks) can control two dolls, two string abilities or one of each. This was further balanced by allowing him to sustain all of his abilities and dolls with one minor action in Ephemeral Strings. [/sblock]
♦ Good, I'm glad you agree with me on Charisma.
♦ Lastly, I think that once we clarify a bit more, we should look into at least one paragon path that lets a puppeteer "make-it-yourself" a puppet. It won't be a conventional class, but what about this has been?

Footnotes:
1: I’ve come up with three kinds of feats that raise the limit of abilities beyond two. First, one that lets him raise his number of puppets by one. Second, the inverse of the first, that raises his string abilities by one. (This separation brought to you by feats in 4e: Feats made worthless; it’s a game feature now.) Third, one that lets him learn how to “tie off” a particular string ability, separating it from his limit (in such a manner that it can still be dispelled as normal, but this might also extend the duration, or maybe not). This third variety would not suitable for heroic tier characters.


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## GamerRay (Nov 6, 2008)

Responses to your last post, sblocked for sake of space.
[sblock]-Apologies on misspelling your name; it is fixed.
-Wielding weapons has been suggested. I'm still not fully sold on it, but if you can come up with a rough idea of how it would work without being too cheesy (I'm trying to avoid turning dolls into a rogue without powers), I'm willing to put it in.
-As for string and puppet abilities, ignore any powers in the original post. I haven't gone through and messed with ranges, key words, or even appropriate damages. But yes, Corpse Puppet would definitely be a string ability.
-The fluff will be left open. That was mostly by thinking out loud, because all things are required to make sense to me in a fantasy game.
- I'm interested in your "unsummonable" idea. As I picture it, it may be a bit overpowered (being able to conjure up your dailies while they still have hit points), but I'm sure it can be made in to a fair, even balance. I will definitely be thinking about that one. 
The reason I don't want puppets to be a one use daily is because the puppeteer should be able to use his signature weapon. True he will also use others as his puppets, but I personally wouldn't want to feel hesitant to throw a doll out there because I may need it later and don't want to waste it.
-I figured I was using the wrong wording on "drawing strength from his puppet's damage." What I meant was that his most direct-damage abilities would come from his "puppet" keywords.
-I get the weapon slot idea. The strings on one hand are able to control 1 thing at a time (a puppet or creature). I like it, and we're definitely going with it.
-As for illusionist... maybe that should be saved for a paragon path? Giving the puppeteer his own tricks to mess with enemies... it's something that can be put on the back burner (which is getting quite crowded). Right now I think the focus is finalizing the features and whatnot (nearly there) and getting abilities ironed out. I at least have some rough ideas for the "swiss army puppet" that could just be taken apart and put into individual puppets (allowing for the player to choose between damage and control puppets, on top of string control abilities). [/sblock]


Sorry for not adding anything really new. I just got back from a D&D Delve Night and have class in the morning. But as always, thanks again for all your work and great ideas.


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 12, 2008)

Kisanji Arael, Gamer Ray
hey this looks like its heading in the right direction so far. I have a few questions though. Kisanji,

♦ Should weapons be usable? I say yes, but mostly by the puppet, who can only use weapons (of the non-power variety) available to the puppet master.

I was wondering about the nature of the weapons that the puppets/puppeteer would be using. I understand that the puppeteer himself would use simple melee, ranged melee, and martial ranged, but what of the puppet. When you say "non-power variety" are you referring to magic weapons like life drinker, vicious, etc.? If so, I'm a little worried that limiting the class to weapons without magic properties could cripple its regular attacks. I understand that this class's strength is in it's tactical use of special ability puppets, but when all of that runs out, the puppeteer needs to rely on its base puppet (first, heirloom, w/e) with its at-will attacks and basic attacks, or a handful of control abilities to escape. If i'm level 20 or so and i'm still doing 15 to 20 points of damage to things with an HP pool of 400-600, i'm essentially useless other than small status ailments. I was thinking that if the idividual weapons weren't allowed to be magical, then the implement (gloves) should bestow such abilities. 

Speaking of the implement (gloves)..check this out. I envision the gloves being fingerless with the base area for the fingers being fixed with rings. The gloves themselves would be ornately decorated with runes or w/e for aesthetic appeal and the rings would be of various natures (gold, silver, diff colors, etc) This would basically do  two things for these created implements. One, it would differentiate it from other gloves such as a simple pair of gloves of dex or w/e. Two, for customization purposes and fluff. By this I mean that it would explain how the puppeteer can remain manually dexterous while wearing this implement. 

As far as the direction of this class, I notice that the two of you are now steering toward a multi-puppet user instead of a single puppet guy.  Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good concept, but I think for the sake of not seeing the puppeteer die when his daily/encounter arsenal has depleted, I feel it is essential that there be a main puppet. To me, this could be balanced out by having the main puppet striker, the status ailment/control one-hitters (dailies/encounters), and the puppeteer's control abilities. The one-hitters are used tactically to distract or hinder the opponent while the striker gets set to bring the pain. The opponent, attempting to avoid being vice-gripped by these two forces, attempts to take out its source. As the enemy approaches, a strange sensation overcomes their body, and the sword hand that was raised against this manipulator turns on itself.

By the way, for those of you that were trying to figure out a way to make the puppeteer become more like his puppet or become a puppet himself, check this out. 
Soul String Ritual 
As an apprentice becomes a full puppeteer, the master bestows him with one final gift...
 As a sign of complete mastery over puppetry, a puppet master engages in a ritual that turns himself into a puppet. The strings of his soul forge a permanent bond with his student, and bestow essential knowledge of puppet mastery. In the end, the master honors his student, by becoming his first puppet...

Granted this might end up becoming fluff for someone's campaign, but I thought I'd throw it out there to get you guys thinking.

Also, I came up with a power that I want to add as a Puppet Power

*Spinal Tap Coppelia*
"Now, you might feel a slight prick..."
Tempting your enemy with a false chance of victory, you bate them for ruin. While distracted, they soon find that some mistakes prove deadly.
Encounter.  Melee or Ranged
Standard Action
Target: One creature.
Range: 10 squares
Attack: Dex vs. AC, FORT, REF
Special: You make one attack roll, and you hit if the roll
equals or exceeds any of the three defenses.
Hit: 3[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and ongoing 10
damage (save ends). Add an extra 1[W]
damage if the attack hits two defenses. The target is also
stunned until the end of your next turn if the attack hits all
three defenses.

This might need balancing, but essentially I was thinking of it playing out like this: The enemy is battered and bruised from the onslaught of your maniacal mannequins. Suddenly, they realize they're just at your feet. A swift cleave of their blade would see you dead. Just as they raise their sword towards a victorious kill, they are seized from behind! Limbs of a puppet entangle their arms, with pantera-like claws latching fast to their flanks. As the puppet closes in, its torso separates to reveal a spine shaped blade protruding from its center. Then, in a moment of sadistic embrace, the foe is skewered and the world fades to black....


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## Kisanji Arael (Nov 12, 2008)

Hey Soul Strings,
First off, let me say that I love the user name. Maybe some time I'll tell you why.

You raise some interesting points and ask good questions. Expect a reply before the night is over. But I have a paper to be working on right now, so yeah, SoAn beats out D&D (for once).

-Cum nefas et candore,
Chris


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## GamerRay (Nov 12, 2008)

Soulstrings33 said:


> As far as the direction of this class, I notice that the two of you are now steering toward a multi-puppet user instead of a single puppet guy.  Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good concept, but I think for the sake of not seeing the puppeteer die when his daily/encounter arsenal has depleted, I feel it is essential that there be a main puppet.




Hey SS, I just had a quick comment for right now (with more to come later).

I've been thinking about this quite a bit. Especially if a group is anything like my gamers, and they don't take an extended rest until everyone is completely out of healing surges, the puppeteer will become quite useless.

The only way I can think to combat this would be to allow him to make his puppets immaterial, perhaps allowing him to spend a short rest gathering and recalibrating a daily puppet. I don't know, because it's a hard concept to balance. Either he runs out of steam too quick, or he can use his dailies while his comrades are trying to finish the boss with at-wills.

Also, I'm really thinking about saving the main puppet for a paragon path. Perhaps having it return to my original idea, and somehow combining all individual puppet abilities into one powerful puppet. This of course would have pros and cons to it, but that's what makes things fun.

I guess before we get too deep in to designing powers, there needs to be a logical and balanced way to handle puppets and powers. But that's a journey to take when I'm not behind in classes


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 12, 2008)

I was thinking about it late last night after my post. There is one major component that has been left off that basically gives this class its flavor. In the class features, there are some natural powers that we've overlooked. First, natural ventriloquism- the puppeteer is able to use throw voice at-will. I can see this being very handy in RP and in combat. Say, in a fight, the main enemy is wailing on your party. Then as a distraction tactic you could throw your voice just behind the guy (like a battle cry, etc.) making him turn to face the sound. Not sure what save to use on it, but it would be fun to mess with the bad guys this way. Second, manipulating mudane objects (books, rocks, etc) as distractions, or improvised weapons (d4 probably). With all of that in mind, check this out: 
You've been captured and placed in a holding cell (no windows, just one door leading out). Just beyond the bars of your cell, there is a single guard posted at a desk to watch you. Like salt in the wound, on the desk rests the keys to your freedom, just out of reach...or are they? Using your ethereal strings to manipulate the door, there comes a knocking. Throwing your voice, you bluff the guard into believing that a higher ranking officer, just beyond the door has summoned the him to a meeting, and that he will be relieved of his post. Not being that bright, the guard falls for your ploy, leaving the keys on the desk, and heads out the door towards the aforementioned location. Smirking to yourself, your strings find their way to the keys...

As a recap: 1) Natural Ventriloquism  2) Control mundane items (maybe call it "Set the Stage") Also, as a side note, what about scrying? I know that it has already been decided that the puppeteer must have, to a certain degree, line of sight. I was thinking of it being something like this:

Puppet Scrying
"Those eyes..they seem to be following us...creepy."
Utility. Daily
Standard Action
Effect: While concentrating through his main puppet, the puppeteer is able to see through its eyes. For 5 minutes, the puppeteer is able to see as though he were the puppet itself. (The 5 minutes don't have to be used all at once) During this time the puppeteer is unable to control any other puppet except the main one.


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 12, 2008)

As far as the corpse puppet is concerned, when it comes to HP, I think that either using some of your own HP (with a possible 1/3 ratio) or spending a healing surge could give it an HP pool. Considering the fact that these things will probably be used for a few hits, or a distraction on average before getting destroyed beyond use. lol I can see it now...the enemy is frustrated because they aren't sure if it would be more beneficial to attack the party, or destroy their fallen comrades so they can't be manipulated as new foes. The puppeteer could, in this way, make an interesting boss..


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 12, 2008)

By the way, Kisanji, I'm very curious how Soul Strings is significant to you. Much like you, I have a specific reason that I favor the name. Hopefully we can discuss that later on.


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 12, 2008)

When thinking about the At-Will powers for this class, since it's a controller/striker, I think that it's only fair that there be 2 striking and 2 controlling. In this way, at the very start of developing your class, you decide if you're dominantly a striker, controller, or something in between (1 striker, 1 controller). This of course can be altered if the player chooses to be human and get that extra At-Will (very tempting btw)


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## GamerRay (Nov 12, 2008)

I had thought about giving the master some fun abilities. However, the only things I could come up with (throwing the voice and manipulating objects) are just wizard cantrips with different fluff. It makes perfect sense for him to be able to throw his voice and manipulate objects, but it still feels like copying even though it's unique. 

And I like the HP pool idea for the corpse puppet. A little of the controller goes in to the controlled... the question now is whether the corpse has any of its original abilities, or if it just does a basic attack and grants flanking.

And I also thought about letting the puppeteer do a sort of "energy surge" into the corpse. Perhaps if the corpse has been controlled since the beginning of the turn, the puppeteer has an ability that would allow him to make the corpse explode, either acting as a push-bomb, or it could deal necrotic damage (I'm thinking of the rotting zombie that hurls black goo, which I assume to be organs, at its foe).


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 12, 2008)

hey Gamer Ray,
 Since your original inspiration for this was Kankuro from Naruto, I thought it'd be cool to use a technique of his. Recall, if you will, the battle between Kankuro, Sakon, and Ukon. When he tricked them with distraction and captured the two with his second puppet Kuroari (Black Ant). Then, using Karasu (Crow), he impaled the imprisoned duo like a pin cushion. heh I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy Kankuro's techniques in the series, as well as in the movie..one word "Ruthless"
I think this technique can be pulled off in this game, but with a few tweaks to keep it from being overpowered. I was thinking that the initial capture could be an encounter ability (probably fits well with the control section), and then any number of combos could come off of it. The enemy would be completely immobilized until they save against the grapple (maybe), and in that time one of two things could happen. 1) the party members gang up on the helpless foe, destroying both the puppet and the enemy, or the puppeteer can choose to burn that precious action point to initiate the last half of the attack.(..or wait til your next turn to do it and hope they haven't broken free)


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 12, 2008)

I like your idea about making the corpse puppets explode. Since you really liked your grenades, maybe the puppeteer can infuse certain elements (ice, fire, etc.), like the artificer, into the corpse and make it explode. Either way, I'm completely cool with exploding zombies on strings. lol


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 12, 2008)

If you're going to make the corpse puppets only able to use basic attacks, then they should have a decent Hp Pool. If you allow them to have their At-Wills then the Hp should be less. That way, they'll do a few hits of reasonable damage before getting destroyed. Also, think about this. What if the amount of Hp that is put into the puppet is how much damage the explosion causes. Its an incentive to put a good deal of hp in, but then one has to consider the risk it creates if someone gets close to you. Balance
Also, this could essentially be the doorway I needed to bring ailments such as disease in.


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## GamerRay (Nov 13, 2008)

I actually just watched the episode where he has his 2nd puppet, and designed my own version of the Iron Maiden.

Basically, it would be a puppet with 1/2 movement speed (if at all). Unlike other puppets, it can "attack" any enemy that is moved into the square it occupies, even with no strings attached. The creature would take dX damage, become immobilized, and take dX damage each turn it is immobilized by the puppet. It would perhaps gain some bonus (negative to enemy's saving throw?) if the puppeteer has strings attached to the Iron Maiden.


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 13, 2008)

I was thinking over the idea of the paragon paths (yes i know, its way too early to jump right into that.) I think one of the paths should focus exclusively of the Puppeteer's ability to use his strings. He doesn't have a favorite puppet because all things are simply tools for his amusement. When not controlling enemies (fallen or otherwise), controlling allies, or toying with inanimates, the puppeteer devotes his time to reaching the pinnacle of his wire's potential. I can see this type of puppeteer using garrote wire trap tactics. Perhaps he sets an intricate trap of empheral wires and waits for the enemy to approach. As soon as they're in place, the wires become substantial, entangling the helpless foe, and with a sheer tug, these razor wires evicerate them.


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 13, 2008)

I like it. Seriously, i think that with the three of us working on this, its going to turn out awesome. When we get this finished, I'll probably only play this class. There's so much that you can do with it.


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 14, 2008)

Truth be told, I've played a puppet master before in 3.5. The DM at the time helped me devise the class using the rogue, the artificer, Kankuro, and a little imagination.It ended up being a puppet master that, at his highest level, could control 5 unique puppets. You were given a number of "puppet building points" (at each level this number increased). We based this progression on the artificers point system for infusions. The options varied greatly from extra hp to hidden weapons. We even had it set up to where you could control different size puppets (small, medium, large). Spending some points, you could install a storage space in the puppet's torso (see where this is going?) If you played a small race, you could hide inside the medium puppet, and then that one could hide in the large puppet. Basically double what Sasori did.  Also, as extra defense, at a higher level, the master was granted control over a sentient guardian (Warforged). If you double stored yourself and protected that with the Warforged, you still had 3 unique puppets to fight for you. The 3 different builds you could have were utility (general use, carrying gear, etc), fighter, and assassin (rogue). Once I was completely set up, I was double stored, guarded by a Warforged,had 2 fighters and 1 assassin. So that it made sense being stored, the puppet master had a special type of scrying, which could only be used to see through the vision of his puppets. It was a very fun class to play out.


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 14, 2008)

So far in developing this class, we have essentially come up with two methods. 
1) A single-puppet Puppeteer 2) A Multi-puppet Puppeteer

Before breaking that down into striker or controller I'd like to touch on some other options.
1) A combination method where there is a main puppet, but the Puppeteer also uses one-shots to assist the main puppet in its task
2) A multi-puppet build that focuses on a few strong puppets (not sure how many) and the powers for such a build would be dependant on the number of puppets in use. For example: The powers would be called tactics, using combos to take out enemies and if there are more puppets out, then more powerful moves can be used (dailies) It would essentially still be one attack, but all the puppets in use would execute it in one turn (simplicity) It would help explain why a certain tactic could do damage and paralyze, or w/e
For balance, if its a tactic that requires 3 puppets, if you had three but one is destroy before your turn, the power wouldn't be available until you called out another puppet or took time to repair the damaged one.


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## GamerRay (Nov 14, 2008)

In the original build, there was going to be 1 main puppet and several 1 shots. However, too many people had a hard time believing 1 puppet could be so strong. I'm still a fan of the idea, with the 1 puppet being medium sized and the rest being the size of a marionette. However, I'm not opposed to just having several puppets, although the latter becomes problematic down the road when you have 10 or 15 puppets at your disposal, and trying to role-play how you can carry so many.


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 14, 2008)

How about this: You can have several pupppets, but with a catch. There is one main puppet always at your disposal, but the rest are (of the same size or bigger/smaller) summonable for 1-3 rounds depending on the nature of the encounter or daily and then, unless its an exploding puppet, it is called back and preparation must be made to resummon later. Like a tactic where you team up your main puppet with two others. One will be the trap while the other two steer the enemy towards it. Upon getting too close, wires spring out of the trap puppet to ensnare the foe. The puppet helping the main one is unsummoned and the main puppet goes in to strike. After stabbing or w/e that puppet gets out of the way as the trap puppet explodes with the enemy still inside.


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 14, 2008)

And as far as carrying so many puppets, you could take the summon scroll concept from naruto, or have something like a puppet house that stores them all. Any puppet can be summoned from this extra planar area. It could also explain why the puppeteer is able to go long periods of time in a traveling party without having to spend an ungodly amount of money repairing the puppets. His tools would come from the puppet house.


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 14, 2008)

While looking over all the things that you have compiled, I thought of something. As far as making the puppeteer become more like its puppet, what if the puppeteer could pull a magic jar-like move and enter the body of his puppet. From there, he could craft himself a new puppet body with as many hidden weapons, etc. as his original puppet. I would think that since he would be using this body, that it would be more durable and allow the puppeteer to take part in actually damaging enemies himself. Each time the body gets too messed up, he can either repair it or make a new one. Just repairing could be done during an extended rest, but crafting a new body would require extra time.Also, I think that the magic jar-like ability should be limited to being able to jump into puppet bodies. Let me know what you think.


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 19, 2008)

Hey, 
Any word on new developments? Its been pretty quiet on this forum except for me and Gamer Ray on occassion. I was trying to find a template to use for compiling all the info, so I got the pdf. of the phb and used one of the class pages. When I dragged it into illustrator, I had a not so pleasant surprise. I knew that my font library more than likely didnt have the fonts, but that wasn't the problem. Aparently WOTC went in and made each line of text a seperate item!...ugh So the process of making this thing look as official as possible is a huge task...a little suffering for greatness. I've taken the Power Infused blade as one of the At-Wills, still uncertain of what I want for a second striking ability, with the clipping, and a wire manipulation riposte as the two control At-Wills. I've decided that I want this thing to go along this line:

Puppeteer– deadly controller

Main Puppet– Striker

Encounter/Daily Puppets–Status Ailment, Control, Distraction 

Class Powers

Scrying–Limited to seeing through puppets eyes (scouts and main puppet)

Natural Ventriloquism–(Like the wizard ability) throws voice at will

Scout Puppets-(Thanks to Kisanji for this one) these marrionettes have no martial abilities and serve only has scouts and spies for the Puppeteer. The Puppeteer may use scrying to see through the scout's eyes.

Ephemeral Strings: Attach Strings Puppeteer feature. While this one is essentially used to attach to the Main, Enc, and Daily Puppets, it is also used to pick up, move, or otherwise manipulate objects around the Puppeteer.

Ephemeral Strings: Fade In Fade Out 
Your strings turn from illusory to substantial, allowing you to use "String" abilities. You may revert your strings to being illusory as a free action. At the end of the String ability's effect, the strings return to being illusory automatically.


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 19, 2008)

To explain the wire manipulation riposte ability (not the official name). Say that the Puppeteer has sent out his main puppet to attack a group of enemies. One of the enemies manages to slip passed the puppet, and heads straight for the Puppeteer. As he approaches to attack, the Puppeteer reacts, entangling the enemy with his strings.

At Will ? Arcane, String
Free Action 
Hit: Int vs. Will
Target: One enemy that has just attempted a melee attack on you.
As an immediate interrupt, the Puppeteer sends the strings of its free hand to control the attacking enemy. If successful, the creature becomes dominated until the beginning of your next turn and is forced to take a standard action of the Puppeteer's choosing. The Puppeteer can choose to make the opponent attack itself, attack one of its adjacent allies, move half its speed away from the Puppeteer, or simply stop. You must have at least one hand free to use this ability.
Special: Using both hands grants a +4 to Puppeteer's Int vs. enemy's Will
Miss: Puppeteer takes damage (should it lose control of object manipulated with other hand, i.e. main puppet or w/e?)


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## Zelc (Nov 20, 2008)

NOTE: I did not read all of the posts before posting this, so I probably said some redundant stuff.  Sorry  .

Instead of using grenades, you can make them exploding dolls .

Here's some more inspiration if you like.  A different take on a puppeteer: Alice Margatroid, from the Touhou series.  Specifically, her moveset in the two 2-D fighting games (here and here) may make for good inspiration.  Unlike Kankuro, she doesn't keep any puppets out for long periods of time, but instead pulls them out and puts them away as needed.  She plays very much like a controller.  Her game is built mostly using delay-firing dolls to both provide coverage for herself and to set up traps, pressure strings, and block strings to eventually overwhelm the opponent's defense.  These could provide inspiration for some of the independent puppet master attacks.

Youtube:
[sblock][ame=http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Hnw762jKyZ0]Combo video[/ame]
[ame=http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=JWrqPDAlpmk]Corner traps 1[/ame]
[ame=http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=imItcrca_cY]Corner traps 2[/ame]

Tournament Videos:
[ame=http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=hPh69IXBb3A]YouTube - ç¬¬äºŒå›ž ã•ã„ãŸã¾å¤§ä¼š Block X Game 01 ãŸãƒžPO(Alice) vs æœ‰å€ã‚„ã¾(Meirin)[/ame]
[ame=http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=rR7orBNuJwg]YouTube - ç¬¬äºŒå›ž ã•ã„ãŸã¾å¤§ä¼š Block X Game 03 ãŸãƒžPO(Alice) vs YOUZI(Yukari)[/ame]

[ame=http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=-yfU2gdzv90]YouTube - SWR-demo: JP-tournament; TamaZO(Alice) vs Dorzi(Aya) D3[/ame]

[ame=http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=jSXULYwd6g4]SWR-demo: JP-tournament; TamaZO(Alice) vs Kai(Marisa) D2[/ame]

More here.[/sblock]
The grenade dolls should be easy to represent.  They come with varying levels of power, and maybe push or knock prone.  The spinner dolls can be zone burst 1 in range X powers (larger bursts for the multi-spinner doll abilities) that last until either the end of your next turn or the turn after the end of your next turn.  It may be difficult to represent the delay-firing mechanism.   It could be an instant fire with a condition (perhaps combat advantage, -AC/+Attack, or immobilizing/dazing/stunning) that ends at the end of your next turn, or it could be some sort of 1 square zone (for bullet-firing puppets) or an X-square wall (for the delay lance puppets) that applies damage and a condition at the beginning of your next turn.  The direct lance puppet effects (dealing damage and knockback) are probably better left to the "master" puppet.  Other ideas include some form of movement utility with the small puppets dragging the character places and some form of AC booster from the blocking puppets.

The biggest problem would be explaining where all these dolls and puppets come from.  D&D doesn't have bullet space, unfortunately.

EDIT: Although, hmm.  I think I have some different thoughts on making a puppeteer class, so perhaps I'll post a different version when I get mine done.


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 20, 2008)

When you get yours finished, I'd like to see it. Using both my idea and yours, we could essentially develop that "kit" system that was mention in earlier posts.Mine being the single focus puppeteer, and yours being the versatile multi puppet user


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## Zelc (Nov 20, 2008)

Soulstrings33 said:


> When you get yours finished, I'd like to see it. Using both my idea and yours, we could essentially develop that "kit" system that was mention in earlier posts.Mine being the single focus puppeteer, and yours being the versatile multi puppet user



I was actually thinking of making a Puppeteer that had the option of either build.  That is, all puppeteers have a puppet (with paragon paths that give them more puppets or allow them to use corpses as puppets or whatnot), which functions somewhat like the Ranger's Beast Companion.  They'd also have dolls, which function sort of like the Artificer's artifices.*  Which one works better depends on which build you pick.  And since they're limited by free hands, they may decide not to use one or the other, but they always have the option to do so.  I'm thinking the default is 1 doll/puppet per hand, and perhaps the doll-using path gets an extra doll if they have 2 free hands.  It'll later be improved either by feats, by paragon paths, or just by natural level progression of the Puppeteer control ability (haven't decided yet, but I'm leaning towards the natural progression so people don't HAVE to take the feats, and some by paragon paths).

The puppet-based powers control by putting another tank on the field, while the doll-based powers control by making certain areas very unsafe for enemies to be in (more bonuses to attack/damage and conditions in the vein of Alice's doll traps than straight damage).  As a "gimmick", the doll-based powers will often fire the round after they're used and/or have a blind spot adjacent to the character (I'm not sure how to make the blind spot larger, ideas?), so thinking ahead is very important.  Dolls can be retrieved as a free action, but otherwise can be left on the field to be triggered by other powers.  So the character would be Controller/Defender or Controller/Leader based on their focus.  I'd probably have all powers use Dex for attack, and Int for dolls effects vs. Con or Cha for puppet effects (it'll probably be Con; Con synergizes better because I plan on using the Puppeteer's healing surges to heal the puppet, while Cha seems better from a "taunt" perspective).

Right now, I'm still kind of in the planning phase.  The doll powers are pretty easy to make since I can draw on Alice's moves, but it's been a long time since I've watched Naruto and I don't think Kankuro displays enough moves anyway to fully flesh out a character.  I'm thinking of having some puppet dailies act as kind of a cross between a feat and a daily power, in that it'll improve the puppet for the whole day and the power itself can be used to provide an extra benefit (using the power does not expend the puppet improvement).

Anyway, here's an idea for some at-will doll moves.  Doll X means the power counts as X doll(s) against the limit you can control.  If the doll remains after the power ends, it will be noted in the effects field.

*Delayed Bullet Doll*
_You throw a doll near an enemy.  A moment later, the doll shoots a stream of bullets towards the enemy which creates an opening for your next attack._
At Will *** Arcane, Doll 1, Implement
Standard Action *** Area 1 square within 5 squares
*Effect:* You throw a doll into the square.  The doll remains until retrieved.  At the beginning of your next turn, the doll makes an attack.
*Target:* One creature within 5 squares of the doll.
*Attack:* Dexterity vs. Reflex
*Hit:* 1d4 + Dexterity modifier damage.  Until the end of your turn, the next attack made against this creature by you or an ally gains a power bonus to attack rolls equal to half your Intelligence modifier and a power bonus to damage rolls equal to your Intelligence modifier.
Increase damage to 2d4 + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.
*Miss:* Until the end of your turn, the next attack made against this creature by you or an ally gains a power bonus to attack rolls equal to half your Intelligence modifier.

/* The doll is treated as a minion and enemies can force you to retrieve the doll by hitting it.  If it's too strong or if we want to emphasize the controller nature of this power more, the range of the bullets can be reduced to something like 3. */

*Bullet Doll*
_You hold out a doll, and it sprays bullets at your enemies._
At Will *** Arcane, Doll 1, Implement
Standard Action *** Range 5
*Target:* One or two creatures.
*Attack:* Dexterity vs. Reflex, two attacks
*Hit:* 1d4 + half of your Dexterity modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2d4 + half of your Dexterity modifier at 21st level.

/* A normal non-weapon attack that doubles as a minion-clearer. No blind spot (should there be one?). */

*Spear Doll*
_You throw your hand forward, and a spear-wielding doll lances toward your foe._
At Will *** Arcane, Doll 1, Implement
Standard Action *** Range 4
Special: You cannot target creatures less than 3 squares away from you.
*Target:* One creature.
*Attack:* Dexterity vs. Fortitude
*Hit:* 1d6 + Dexterity modifier damage, and you push the target 2 squares.  The target is slowed until the end of your next turn.
Increase damage to 2d6 + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.

/* A fairly annoying "stay away from me!" move.  You can't use it against creatures even 2 squares away from you, so use it to prevent enemies from getting to you.  Would Push 3 be too strong here? Think we could make this usable anytime a melee basic attack is (still takes the AoO)?  */

*They'd probably have something like a Holy Symbol that buffs both puppets and dolls, although I have no idea what to call it at this point.  Some sort of amulet?   I don't want it to take up any hands because they'll need their hands free to control the puppets/dolls.


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## scarik (Nov 21, 2008)

Zelc said:
			
		

> *They'd probably have something like a Holy Symbol that buffs both puppets and dolls, although I have no idea what to call it at this point. Some sort of amulet?   I don't want it to take up any hands because they'll need their hands free to control the puppets/dolls.




How about... and I know this might seem out there.

A magical doll.


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 21, 2008)

Zelc, for what time period are you creating your puppeteer for? If its medieval then riddling the enemy with bullets doesn't fit. I hate being critical on something like that because my DMs usually toss the time period book at me with stuff. Don't get me wrong, if the setting is final fantasy style, with magic mixed with crude modern technology then I can see it working. I guess my main suggestion on your concept is to consider using that game character as simply inspiration not the exact model to go by.


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## Zelc (Nov 21, 2008)

Soulstrings33 said:


> Zelc, for what time period are you creating your puppeteer for? If its medieval then riddling the enemy with bullets doesn't fit. I hate being critical on something like that because my DMs usually slap the time period book at me with stuff. Don't get me wrong, if the setting is final fantasy style, with magic mixed with crude modern technology then I can see it working. I guess my main suggestion on your concept is to consider using that game character as simply inspiration not the exact model to go by.



Well, they're not real bullets.  They're like magic missiles, I suppose.

ETA: Does "Delayed Magic Missiles Doll" sound ok?    What should I replace "bullets" with?  I could just change the flavor text.


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 21, 2008)

I would avoid slapping magic missile on that because it would start to become a wizard with control over a magic missile machine gun warforged. While entertaining, we should consider making this class stand on its own feet. Magic missile is the wizard's thing (one of many) If your heart is set on this rapid fire concept, consider these two options:

1) The Arcane Power route: The puppet is loaded with a multitude of needles, darts, or w/e. The Puppeteer infuses each with his own arcane power before unleashing a torrential rain of pain. Not bullets, but having them infused with arcane power can give them that extra sting.

2) The Psychic Adept route: The Puppeteer uses his mind to craft various weapons that are released from the puppet's body. One such weapon is the mind dart (bullet). Basically the puppet would approach an enemy, open its mouth, hands, or w/e and using the same mechanic as the mind blade, the puppet fires bullets of pure psychic energy


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## Zelc (Nov 21, 2008)

Soulstrings33 said:


> I would avoid slapping magic missile on that because it would start to become a wizard with control over a magic missile machine gun warforged. While entertaining, we should consider making this class stand on its own feet. Magic missile is the wizard's thing (one of many) If your heart is set on this rapid fire concept, consider these two options:
> 
> 1) The Arcane Power route: The puppet is loaded with a multitude of needles, darts, or w/e. The Puppeteer infuses each with his own arcane power before unleashing a torrential rain of pain. Not bullets, but having them infused with arcane power can give them that extra sting.



Well, I don't think Wizards should have the monopoly on magic projectiles.  In any case, the fluff is mutable.  People can describe the bullets to be anything they like, as long as they deal the same damage.  If you insist, I prefer the Arcane Power option, although I think "magic missiles" or "bullets" or "energy bullets" or whatever is fine.  What do you think about the crunch?

I also wonder what you will say about the laser dolls...


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 21, 2008)

Good Lord... this isn't Terminator lol  (but seriously..) what is the setting of your campaign? With lasers, this thing has become a future d20...which is fine if that's what you want. So, are you basically trying to make that character from the game you showed earlier?


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 21, 2008)

As far as the role this class should play, if you look at the playtest artificer WOTC has basically covered the Controller/Leader role. If you stick with a Controller/Striker (or Defender if you choose) then the artificer quickly becomes the Puppet Master's best friend in a fight. 4e is all about working as a team. Going lone wolf will get you killed quickly, so when designing this thing, consider the synergy between team mates. What works best to combo with other roles? Don't get me wrong, it's cool with me if you like that character so much that you want to be them in a DND setting. Just remember that the beauty of homebrew is you get the chance to bring out your own original flavor to something..or create something totally unique. I personally like beating my own path to originality, but to each his own.


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## Zelc (Nov 21, 2008)

Soulstrings33 said:


> Good Lord... this isn't Terminator lol  (but seriously..) what is the setting of your campaign? With lasers, this thing has become a future d20...which is fine if that's what you want.



Two things.  First, just because I call it a laser does not mean it has to be a stream of photons shot from a technological device.  It could be a stream of magical energy.  Second, fluff is mutable.  Does it really make a difference if I call it a laser instead of a heat ray or an electric bolt if the mechanics stay the same (ok maybe damage type changes)?  I'm more interested in ironing out the crunch first.



> So, are you basically trying to make that character from the game you showed earlier?



Well, there's two levels to this question.  I'm trying to create a class with the same playstyle as the character in the game, because the tactical gameplay seems interesting.  I'm also using moves based on the character in the game's moves, more so I don't have to be all that creative and come up with all these moves than anything.  Although I guess it'd be neat if you could build that character from this class.



Soulstrings33 said:


> As far as the role this class should play, if you look at the playtest artificer WOTC has basically covered the Controller/Leader role. If you stick with a Controller/Striker (or Defender if you choose) then the artificer quickly becomes the Puppet Master's best friend in a fight. 4e is all about working as a team. Going lone wolf will get you killed quickly, so when designing this thing, consider the synergy between team mates. What works best to combo with other roles? Don't get me wrong, it's cool with me if you like that character so much that you want to be them in a DND setting. Just remember that the beauty of homebrew is you get the chance to bring out your own original flavor to something..or create something totally unique. I personally like beating my own path to originality, but to each his own.



I think this is fairly unique.  Basically, the doll focused build of this class has three major aspects.  First, there's the general boring controller AOE that kills minions.  Second, this class sets up fields on the grid that make enemies in those fields vulnerable to attacks.  This obviously synergizes with other classes.  Third, this class has some forms of knockback to put people into those fields and otherwise move people around.  This class also has two major weaknesses of many abilities not firing instantaneously (which requires forward thinking), and the blind spot which requires teamwork and resources dedicated to puppets or other forms of defense.


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 23, 2008)

Interesting idea for this class,but I just have one question. 



> First, there's the general boring controller AOE that kills minions.




Do you think that making the Puppeteer the sideline show (i.e. "handle my light work.") is a good idea? Consider what Kisanji said:



> there should be some reason why the puppeteer is himself valuable. Or, put another way, would the party care if they just had the puppet: if so, then you’ve done something wrong.


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 24, 2008)

Much like the razor wires that the butler used in Hellsing, I think that the Puppeteer should have these wires as natural weapons. If the power is arcane, then these wires get power from being infused with arcane energy. If the power is psychic, then wires work much the same as the mind blade would. This could give the class some extra flavor and help it to stand on its own a little more. Not sure what the damage should be. I know that, as a natural weapon, it shouldn't be any less than a d6. You have to keep in mind that the Puppeteer has learned to use these wires as effective tools to kill. So, I'm thinking that, starting out, it should be either 1d6 or 1d8. There should be a feat that increases this damage, and the feat can be taken multiple times. This would expand the use of the wires beyond tripping, choking, trapping, and controlling. Perhaps there should be a paragon path for a Puppeteer that has chosen to focus on the wires. The Puppeteer that focuses on wire use could go two different routes: all inclusive or seperated into two types of wire users. The first route would be a Puppeteer that controls enemies and/or evicerates them with their skillfully deadly use of wire (arcane or psychic razor wire). The second route would divide these abilities. The player would have the choice of making the String Adept Puppeteer one who controls or strikes. So in essence, if one were to go the second route then there could be paragon paths that seperate much like the build kits. 

Paragon Paths: 



Puppet Focused Paths
1) Masterpiece Marionnette- You've focused your art into the skillful use of one main puppet. You are capable of controlling several dolls, but this puppet has become your trump card...your ace-in-the-hole.
This path goes best with the 
Puppeteer: Deadly Controller
Main Puppet: Striker
Encounter/Dailies: Status Ailment, Traps, One-Shots 

2) Master Hand of Many: There's strength in numbers. You understand this well, and have chosen to overwhelm the enemy with an endless onslaught of puppetry. (This path would possibly have an increase in the number of puppets you could control at one time.)
This path goes best with the
Puppeteer: Controller
Puppets: Various uses (no main puppet)



String Focused Paths
1) Master Manipulator: You see all things as mere tools for your manipulation. Friends, enemies, and neutral parties alike. They are all just puppets on your stage. (This path focuses on the Puppeteer's abilities to supplement ally abilities, turn enemies on themselves, and manipulate everything around. This path would control any creature, dead or alive.)
This path goes best with
Puppeteer: Master Controller (String Manipulator)

2) Hand of the Crimson Strings: Putting away your toys, you've learned the deadly possibilities of your strings. Focusing each string into a vorpal web of death, you evicerate all who stand in your way. (This path focuses on turning your strings into deadly razor wires. In essence the Puppeteer changes from controller to striker.)


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## Kisanji Arael (Nov 24, 2008)

Finish papers: check.
Sleep for 30 straight hours. Check.
Get over cold. Check.
Look over comments on puppet master thread: doing now.

Expect something excessively long.


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 24, 2008)

Finally, someone who can put a method to the madness. Welcome back Kisanji!


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 25, 2008)

I wanted a race that was naturally inclined towards the Puppeteer class, without giving unfair advantages.For example: Eladrin and elves are naturally inclined towards Rangers and Wizards. Their stats are complimented by those classes. Here is a very rough idea of what i'm going for.

ZAEMON (the name came from the most famous Bunraku Puppeteer Chikamatsu Monzaemon)
RACIAL TRAITS
Average Height: 5´–5´ 7?
Average Weight: 130–150 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence 
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Low-light

Languages: Common, (not sure yet)

Skill Bonuses: +2 Stealth, +2 Intimidate

Naturally Talented: You may choose one extra At-Will power at first level.

Zaemon Natural Weapon: The Zaemon are born with a natural weapon known as Crimson Strings. These razor wires, when summoned, spring forth from the Zaemons' fingertips, and are then used to skillfully evicerate their enemies.(Not sure what damage this should do. Maybe d6 or d8 with feats that increase the damage.) 

Death Trance: Rather than sleep, Zaemon enter a meditative state known as Death Trance. You need to spend 4 hours in this state to gain the same benefits other races gain from taking a 6-hour extended rest. While in a trance, you are fully aware of your surroundings and notice approaching enemies and other events as normal. Also,until the end of the trance, you gain an aura of fear. (Cha vs. Will)

Shadow Jaunt: You can use shadow jaunt as an encounter power.

Shadow Jaunt Zaemon Racial Power
Encounter ? Teleportation
Move Action Personal
Effect: Teleport up to 3 squares and become insubstantial until the beginning of your next turn.

This is still a very rough idea. I based it on a cross between the Eladrin and the Shadar Kai. I wanted to give the feel of a dark character being a puppet master. I agree with Kisanji, in that if I were to choose one of the established races, I would go with the eladrin. It's features and bonuses would suit it nicely. I just don't want to play an Eladrin. Its mainly because they don't appeal to me aesthetically. I know that with some fluff, I could alter the look, but its not the same.


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 25, 2008)

As of now, I'm going to postpone any revisions, comments, critiques, etc. until I see what Kisanji has to say.


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## chronoplasm (Nov 25, 2008)

Puppeteer Race:

I think it would be cool if they were spider people.
I like the idea of a spider using its webs as strings on a marrionette.


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 25, 2008)

I know I said I wasn't going to post anything until Kisanji posted, but I had to say something about this. I think that the spider people idea is great. I was thinking that they could have four arms. They keep the second pair hidden when in public to fit in and to surprise enemies in a fight. Their skin could be dark gray, with emerald green or crimson red eyes. This would explain the razor wires (i.e. Crimson Strings) natural weapon.They would be a lot more dextrous than the average humanoid and would be able to control 4 puppets at once. Heh..heh >) loopholes you've gotta lov'em.


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 25, 2008)

Also, as a racial power they would get spider crawl. This would allow them to go up walls like a spider with no problem. It's like Spider-Man...with puppets. The razor wire could be web that is embued with arcane energy to sharpen as a deadly instrument.


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## chronoplasm (Nov 26, 2008)

Sounds cool. It might be a little difficult to balance, but I think it is certainly doable.


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 26, 2008)

Ok. From the ground to the top. Starting off let's look at Class Features and At-Wills:

Class Features:



Puppet Scrying: Puppeteer has the ability to see through the vision of his puppets.
Scout Puppets: Simple puppets used for spying. (They have no martial abilities.)
Manipulate mundane object.
Natural Ventriloquism: Can throw voice at will. (To make this stand apart from the wizard ability, I wanted to suggest that whatever the Puppeteer kills, he can gain the ability to speak that language. Just something to consider)
At-Wills:



 Black Secret Infused Blade: Standard blade attack with flavor
 Puppet Spinneret: The Clipping idea with a different name
 Riposte Manipulation: counter to being attacked; forces opponent to attack self, ally, or move away.
 Dark Hand Blast: Point Blank Shot idea. I don't like this as an At-Will, but its a place holder to balance out the 2 puppet 2 wire power deal for now.


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## Soulstrings33 (Nov 27, 2008)

This forum has been pretty dead for a while....I'm starting to feel that this project has been forsaken...


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## Omnifarious Grey (Feb 11, 2009)

Hey there. I just came across this thread and was surprised that someone had a similar idea as I did. I have been working on the idea of a Puppeteer class for a while as well. I currently have the first 3 levels up for review as I am trying to get more ideas and seeing if it is balanced enough. I would love feedback from a fellow designer with the same idea in mind. I also think we could help each other in bouncing off ideas for the classes, as I feel like we both have two different ideas along the same lines with different mechanics.

One thing I have for a suggestion is to have a few more ambiguous powers for the puppet. This would mean having [W] attacks that would do different damage based on how the puppet is made or what kits, if the idea is used, were used in the making.


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## Sigurd13 (Apr 5, 2009)

Not sure if this was brought up or not, but I had a very, VERY minor thought: have you considered using "Marionette Control Bars" or something similar as the implement? I only say this because using the gloves takes up a body slot- preventing characters from using other magic gauntlets and gloves and such.  
Just a nit picking thought really... but maybe worth a look? ^_~


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