# Age of Heroes - LR Gestalt Game (Roll Call)



## Lord_Raven88 (May 10, 2006)

This thread continues on from this one.

Rogues Gallery
~~~~

A dark power has arisen in a forsaken part of the land, a power that could affect the lives of thousands and harken in a new dark age of terror and evil, the Gods themselves search for champions to destroy this dark menace.

Tormented by dark dreams, you must go to this desolate land, uncover this sinister plot and thwart it at any cost.

~~~~

Character Creation Guidlines:
Ability Points Buy: 40
Level: 10
Races: Standard + Anything in the SRD
Books: PHB, DMG, Psionics, SRD. (Pretty much anything goes)
HP's: Max at 1st, avg at even levels, avg+1 at odd levels.
Alignments: Good or Neutral alignments only.
Starting Gold: 88,000gp
Feats: Everyone receives a bonus feat at 1st level, this is in addition to the usual human bonus feat.
Optional Rules: Action Points.

Players
Question - Troile (Human Half-Dragon Rogue/Kensai/Champion of Corellion Larethian)
Scotley - Silvanyck Greenbough (Wood Elf Warlock/Bard)
Ferrix - ?
Gabrion - Aramel the self-Righteous (Human Mineral Warrior Half-Celestial Paladin 4/Knight 4/Arcane Duelist 2//Bard 3/Invisible Eye Monk 2)
Shayuri - Ilshana/Midnight Mask (Human Beguiler/Duskblade)
Amazing Triangle - Devona Rift (Human Cleric\Combat Medic/Healer)
Wrahn - Ununkua'em the Vanquisher (Phrenic Goliath of Legend  Cleric/Warmind)


No more players please!, but alts welcome


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## Lord_Raven88 (May 10, 2006)

Well I'm keen on seeing this game go ahead, so far Kobold Archmage has pulled out, and I haven't heard anything from Herobizkit, Wystan, or Steve Gorak, I'll open this up to the alts.

So if you want you're still interested then submit a character.


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## Shayuri (May 10, 2006)

I'd love to be an alt candidate. I'll try to get a character up later tonight.

It would help to know what the existing race/class combinations already in the group were though...so as to craft a character craftily to fit missing slotses. Yes...

*rubs hands*


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## Scotley (May 10, 2006)

Definately ready to continue.


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## Ferrix (May 10, 2006)

Wee...


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## Question (May 11, 2006)

Oops didnt see this till now


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## gabrion (May 11, 2006)

Moved...


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## Question (May 11, 2006)

I cant figureout what the numbers in the brackets are.


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## gabrion (May 11, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> I cant figureout what the numbers in the brackets are.




Ya, I didn't make that very clear in this version.  They correspond to the four letters following the breakdown, "B, K, M, P," which in turn represent the classes Bard, Knight, Monk, and Paladin.  I only listed them after each level to be sure that this character was possible without having an XP penalty for multiclassing somewhere along the way.


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## Lord_Raven88 (May 11, 2006)

gabrion said:
			
		

> Ya, I didn't make that very clear in this version.  They correspond to the four letters following the breakdown, "B, K, M, P," which in turn represent the classes Bard, Knight, Monk, and Paladin.  I only listed them after each level to be sure that this character was possible without having an XP penalty for multiclassing somewhere along the way.



With the amount of multiclassing that goes on with Gestalt characters, lets not worry about the normal XP penalties for multiclassing


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## gabrion (May 11, 2006)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> With the amount of multiclassing that goes on with Gestalt characters, lets not worry about the normal XP penalties for multiclassing




Kool.

I just noticed that the version of my character posted above is even older than I thought.  Tattooed Monk shouldn't even be in there.  Oh well, I'll get back to revising it.

Edit: LR, I also wanted to ask you about some non-core races and templates if you don't mind.  Would you allow any of the following?


Half-fey: Template from the fiend folio.
Half-Nymph: Template rom Dragon 313
Mineral Warrior: Template from the Underdark.  (I asked about this before and if you already answered I've forgotten)
Varoot Nerra: Mirror themed race from Fiend Folio.

Also, the first two templates can be found here if you want to have a look.


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## Question (May 12, 2006)

Only ONE alt has responded so far....and with 3 of the original list and 1 new alt, that leaves us with 5.

Can we just start the game by sunday or something? We will never get anywhere if we keep waiting for people who express interest then dissapear.


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## Rhun (May 12, 2006)

Hey LR, as I had posted before ENWorld so rudely crashed, I would be up for joining this game or being an ALT as well. I've got a couple of Gestalt characters that would fit in with just some minor tweaking.


Also, for those of you that don't know, today is the weekend for Lord_Raven, since he is in New Zealand, and he rarely ever posts on the weekend.


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## Lord_Raven88 (May 13, 2006)

Rhun said:
			
		

> Hey LR, as I had posted before ENWorld so rudely crashed, I would be up for joining this game or being an ALT as well. I've got a couple of Gestalt characters that would fit in with just some minor tweaking.
> 
> 
> Also, for those of you that don't know, today is the weekend for Lord_Raven, since he is in New Zealand, and he rarely ever posts on the weekend.



Almost never, that's true.  when DMing a game I only ever update the IC thread during my working week, saying that I stick to a strick schedule of post at least one Ic thread per day, if there is no combat involved then I can do it more often.

Regarding getting this game underway, I'm going to close applications for this game in 3 days time, so everyone who wants to play needs to have a completed character by then.

Rhun: Feel free to post a character.


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## gabrion (May 13, 2006)

Hey LR, I don't know if you noticed, but I had a series of questions about allowable material in post #11.  If you get a chance to answer those, it would help me nail down some of the crunchy stuff for my character.    Thanks.


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## Lord_Raven88 (May 13, 2006)

gabrion said:
			
		

> Kool.
> 
> I just noticed that the version of my character posted above is even older than I thought.  Tattooed Monk shouldn't even be in there.  Oh well, I'll get back to revising it.
> 
> ...



Half-fey and the mineral warrior is fine, it's a no for the half-nymph and a   for the Varoot Nerra


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## gabrion (May 13, 2006)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> Half-fey and the mineral warrior is fine, it's a no for the half-nymph and a   for the Varoot Nerra




Hey, thx for the response!  So I've kinda decided that the character I'm going to play will be a Paladin 4/Knight4/Arcane Duelist 2//Bard 3/Monk 2/Mineral Warrior 1/Half-Celestial 4, but that depends largely on how you will allow templates in your game.  Most importantly, would you allow the mineral warrior and half-celestial templates to have been granted part way through the character's career?  I think as inhereted templates they are supposed to be a part of the character from the get go, but it would work much better for me if they could be at the end because:

1) I really like the idea of a paladin/knight who has traveled around fighting evil being given a great gift by his divine patrons (namely the template in question) and
2) I need to have monk and bard levels early in the build to fit ascetic knight and devoted performer in.

I was also wondering if you would allow the following item from Dragon Magazine:

[sblock=Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (Dragon 314, pg. 22)]*Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows:* These soft leather gauntlets sport a large, flat gem in the back of each hand.  Ringed by steel, these stones slowly shift color as long as the gauntlets are worn.  Whenever the bearer becomes involved in combat, the stones glow brighter, and their colors begin to swirl with intense energy, casting a fiery aura around any weapon in the wearer’s hands.  The wearer’s melee attacks cause extra points of fire damage equal to his charisma bonus (minimum of +1).  This bonus damage also applies to touch attacks.  The fire does not deal damage to the wearer or anything the wearer carries.

Faint transmutation: CL 5th: Craft Wondrous Item, burning hands: Price 12,000 gp: Weight 1 lb.[/sblock]


Thanks for answering my questions (and I promise I'll run out of them soon).


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## gabrion (May 13, 2006)

Ok, assuming the request above is granted (relating to template acquisition), here is the latest incarnation of my character for this game.  He's a real champion of good, defender of all things holy type, and an extremely loyal companion.  Pretty much everything is done other than purchasing some more items.

_________________________________

*Aramel the Righteous*
Human (Mineral Warrior Half-Celestial)
Paladin 4/Knight 4/Arcane Duelist 2//Bard 3/Invisible Eye Monk 2/Mineral Warrior 1/Half-Celestial 4
Lawful Good
Heronious







5’8”, 185 lbs., 28 years old
Silver Hair, Purple Eyes, Platinum Skin
*Str 16* [+3] (2 points, +6 templates) 
*Dex 20* [+5] (6 points, +4 enhancement, +2 template)
*Con 28* [+9] (10 points, +4 enhancement, +8 templates)
*Int 14* (+2) (6 points) 
*Wis 10* (+0) (+2 templates)
*Cha 28* [+9] (16 points, +6 enhancement, +2 levels, +2 templates)

*Level breakdown: *

Paladin 1/Bard 1 Aura of good, Detect evil, Smite evil 1x/day, Bardic music, Bardic knowledge, Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire courage +1 
Paladin 2/Bard 2 Divine Grace, Lay on Hands
Paladin 3/Bard 3 Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Inspire Competence
Paladin 4/Bard 4 Turn Undead
Knight 1/Monk 1 Fighting challenge +1, Knight’s challenge, Knight’s code, Flurry of blows, Unarmed strike
Knight 2/Mineral Warrior 1 Shield Block +1
Knight 3/Half Celestial 1  Bulwark of Defense 
Knight 4/Half Celestial 2 Armor Mastery (medium), Test of mettle 
Arcane Duelist 1/Half-Celestial 3  Chosen Weapon, Enhance Chosen Weapon +1
Arcane Duelist 2/Half-Celestial 4 Apparent Defense

_Hit Points:_ 151 (4d10+4d12+2d8+90)
_AC:_ 37 (10 base, +5 dex, +9 cha [ascetic mage], +9 cha [apparent defense], +4 natural), _Touch:_ 33, _Flatfooted:_ 23
_Initiative:_ +5
_BAB:_ +9, _Grapple:_ +12
_Speed:_ 30 feet, Fly 60 feet (good), Burrow 15 ft.

*Saves*
_Fort:_ +25 (+4 paladin, +2 monk, +1 knight, +0 arcane duelist, +9 con, +9 divine grace)
_Ref:_ +24 (+4 bard, +2 monk, +1 knight, +3 arcane duelist, +5 dex, +9 divine grace)
_Will:_ +20 (+4 paladin, +4 knight, +3 arcane duelist, +0 wis, +9 divine grace)
*Attacks*
+13/+8 melee, masterwork greatsword, 2d6+4, 19-20/x2
+15/+10 ranged, masterwork composite (+3) longbow, 1d8+3, x3, 110' range
*Skills* 63 bard, 7 monk, 15 knight, 14 arcane duelist (99 total)

Concentration +22 (13 ranks, +9 con)
Diplomacy +22 (13 ranks, +9 cha)
Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) +14 (12 ranks, +2 int)
Perform (Wind) +22 (13 ranks, +9 cha)
Ride +14 (9 ranks, +5 dex)
Sense Motive +13 (13 ranks)
Spot +13 (13 ranks)
Tumble +18 (13 ranks, +5 dex)
Speaks Common, Celestial, Abyssal 
_Armor Check Penalty:_ -0
*Feats*
Dodge (Level 1 - Race)
Mobility (Level 1 - Character)
Devoted Performer (Level 1 – Campaign Bonus)
Ability Focus (Knight’s Challenge) (Level 3 – Character – Monster Manual)
Combat Reflexes (Level 5 – Monk Bonus)
Ascetic Mage (Level 6 – Character – Complete Adventurer)
Mounted Combat (Level 6 – Knight Bonus)
Divine Shield (Level 9 – Character – Complete Warrior)
*Human Racial Traits*
Base Speed: 30 ft.
+4 skill points at first level, +1 skill point every level thereafter
One bonus feat at first level
*Mineral Warrior Racial Traits*
Subtype: Earth
Burrow speed equal to ½ highest speed, lose any _pre-existing_ flight ability
Natural Armor +3
_Earth Strike (Ex):_ Once per day, the mineral warrior can make an exceptionally vicious attack against any foe that stands on stone or earth. The mineral warrior adds its Constitution bonus (if any) to its attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per racial Hit Die.
Special Qualities:
Darkvision (Ex): A mineral warrior has darkvision with a range of 60 feet or the base creature's darkvision, whichever is better.
Damage Reduction (Ex): A mineral warrior gains damage reduction 8/adamantine. If it already has damage reduction, it retains both versions and uses the best one that applies.

+2 Str, +4 Con, -2 Int (minimum 1), -2 Wis, -2 Cha
*Half-Celestial Racial Traits*
Type: Outsider
Fly speed (good) equal to twice land speed
Natural Armor +1
Special Attacks:
Daylight (Su)-Half-celestials can use a daylight effect (as the spell) at will.
Smite Evil (Su)- Once per day a half-celestial can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against an evil foe.
Spell Like Abilites-Protection from evil (3x/day), Bless, Aid, Detect Evil, Cure serious wounds, Neutralize poison, Holy smite, Remove disease, Dispel evil

Special Qualities:
Darkvision 60’
Immunity to disease
Resuistance to acid 10, cold 10, electricity 10
Damage Reduction 5/magic
Natural Weapons are treated as magic for overcoming damage reduction
Spell resistance equal to HD+10 (20)
+4 racial bonus on Fort. Saves against poison

+4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha
*Caster Levels*:
CL 4 Bard
CL 2 Paladin
*Bard Spells*
_Cantrips:_ 3/day, Detect Magic, Mending, Summon Instrument
_1st Level:_ 5/day, Grease, Improvisation (SC), Inspirational Boost (SC)
_2nd Level:_ 2/day, Harmonize (RoS), Whirling Blade (SC)
*Equipment*
Masterwork Greatsword-350 gp, 8 lbs
Masterwork Composite (+3) Longbow-700 gp, 3 lbs.
100 arrows-10 gp, 30 lbs.
20 cold iron arrows-2 gp, 3 lbs.
20 alchemical silver arrows-3 gp, 3 lbs.

Purple Robes-30 gp, 6 lbs.
Gloves of Dexterity +4-16,000 gp, - lbs.
Amulet of Health +4-16,000 gp, -lbs
Cloak of Charisma +6-36,000 gp, 2 lbs.
Wand of Lesser Vigor-750 gp, -lbs.
18,155 gp


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## Shayuri (May 14, 2006)

Should I actually make a character? I am confused as to what 'alt' status entails...what is required of me to qualify for it. Clarification? Pwease?


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## Lord_Raven88 (May 14, 2006)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Should I actually make a character? I am confused as to what 'alt' status entails...what is required of me to qualify for it. Clarification? Pwease?



Go ahead and make a charater, I'm hoping to have enough submissions to begin early next week.


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## Shayuri (May 14, 2006)

Are you allowing classes from Tome of Magic or Player's Handbook 2?


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## Question (May 14, 2006)

Hmm im fairly sure mineral warrior is an inherited template, and so is half-celestial.

That basically means you have to take those "classes" at level 1 till you gain enough levels in them both before you can take any normal classes.


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## gabrion (May 14, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> Hmm im fairly sure mineral warrior is an inherited template, and so is half-celestial.
> 
> That basically means you have to take those "classes" at level 1 till you gain enough levels in them both before you can take any normal classes.




Yes, yes, I'm quite aware of all that.  You'll notice that in post #17 I asked Lord Raven about just that issue, because it seems to me that many inhereted templates could be granted to a character rather than being part of them from the start.  Half-Celestial especially seems to be something that the divine spirits could bestow upon an individual if they were worthy.  I'm treating Mineral Warrior in this case not just as a stoney-skinned dude, but as someone who's skin was made hard as adimantum as part of the reward process I'm talking about.  

Now if LR doesn't see fit to grant my request, I'll obviously have to rework some of the crunchy bits of the character.  I may even have to drop the Half-Celestial part, which would be sad since I only decided on it for flavor reasons rather than the stuff it offered (it really isn't worth a +4 LA IMO).  Anyway, until LR says otherwise, I'm going with what I have.  Thanks for looking it over though Question!


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## Amazing Triangle (May 14, 2006)

Hey LR if you still need people I could definiately bring one in.  I have an old Cleric10/Healer10 that I have been itching to see if it would work in real game.  He would have been a Combat medic at some point.  Then would start from 11-15th taking Combat Medic/Healer.  A brash officer who really wished to help those in need.


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## Ferrix (May 14, 2006)

It seems the boards ate my post from last night.

Nice character Gabrion, double stacking charisma to AC with two class levels in Arcane Duelist and one feat is quite crunchy.  I'm surprised they don't limit the arcane duelists bonus by its level like they do the normal duelist.

Seeing your character I might rethink my own cause he fell along very similar lines of high charisma paladin type.


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## Question (May 14, 2006)

Indeed, templates are much more powerful if they onlt take up one side of the equation. You usually need to lose the LA's worth in level abilities, hp and feats, but this way you can get full hp, BAB, lose a few class abilities in exchange for the full template's benefits. Im thinking of taking a template myself, its that good. 

Which book is the arcane duelist from? I cant seem to find it in any of my books....i would like to take a look at it. Btw i cant figure out what your char will be doing. Is he a caster or is he going to fight with his fists?


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## gabrion (May 14, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> Which book is the arcane duelist from? I cant seem to find it in any of my books....i would like to take a look at it. Btw i cant figure out what your char will be doing. Is he a caster or is he going to fight with his fists?





Ummm....he actually isn't into fighting too much.  He'll be walking into every fight and using test of mettle to force all of the enemies to make a DC 23 will save or attack only him, which is ok because of his high AC and HP.  He'll then cast Inspirational Boost and start playing his horn to give everyone +2 attack/+3 damage.  Meanwhile, the rest of the team can wreak havoc on the baddies.


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## Ferrix (May 14, 2006)

Arcane Duelist is from the official Wizards articles on their website.


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## Ferrix (May 14, 2006)

Gabrion, why did you take Divine Shield when you can't use a shield without losing your Monk bonus to AC?


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## Lord_Raven88 (May 14, 2006)

gabrion said:
			
		

> Yes, yes, I'm quite aware of all that.  You'll notice that in post #17 I asked Lord Raven about just that issue, because it seems to me that many inhereted templates could be granted to a character rather than being part of them from the start.  Half-Celestial especially seems to be something that the divine spirits could bestow upon an individual if they were worthy.  I'm treating Mineral Warrior in this case not just as a stoney-skinned dude, but as someone who's skin was made hard as adimantum as part of the reward process I'm talking about.
> 
> Now if LR doesn't see fit to grant my request, I'll obviously have to rework some of the crunchy bits of the character.  I may even have to drop the Half-Celestial part, which would be sad since I only decided on it for flavor reasons rather than the stuff it offered (it really isn't worth a +4 LA IMO).  Anyway, until LR says otherwise, I'm going with what I have.  Thanks for looking it over though Question!



As this is an experiment in the Gestalt rules and as this is only for one game, I'm happy to allow Gabrion to keep his character as is, I'm fine with Gabrion's character receiving these templates latter in life due as a reward from his deity.  Also can you post a link for arcane duelist (assuming you have done so already)

Shayuri: Go ahead and make your character using any WoTC material that you like, if I'm not familiar with it, then I'll require a bit of info from you.

Amazing Triangle: As a few people seemed to have dropped off, go ahead and post your character.

Everyone: As I'm heading off on a business trip for two days as of tomorrow, you all have until then to post your completed characters, when I return I'll endeavour to check the characters and get things started, since the game opens with a bit of research, we will be able to get started before all of the little crunchy bits a finalised.


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## gabrion (May 15, 2006)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Gabrion, why did you take Divine Shield when you can't use a shield without losing your Monk bonus to AC?




Well I forgot to add it to the character's items (and thx for reminding me), but he'll be using a ring of force shield to gain a shield bonus to AC, which will let him benefit from the effect of divine shield.  The item description says:



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> An iron band, this simple ring generates a shield-sized (and shield-shaped) wall of force that stays with the ring and can be wielded by the wearer as if it were a heavy shield (+2 AC). This special creation has no armor check penalty or arcane spell failure chance since it is weightless and encumbrance-free. It can be activated and deactivated at will as a free action.




Now if one focuses on the first part, which includes "can be wielded by the wearer as if it were a heavy shield," it might seem that this would remove monk benefits such as AC, fast movement, etc.  However, the next line makes it pretty clear that this is no kind of encumbrence for the character.  Combining that with the "as if it were" line makes me think that a monk can use this item without penalty and furthermore, a monk palading can use this fine along with divine shield.  This is obviously a DM call though, so LR's input would be wonderful.


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## Ferrix (May 15, 2006)

gabrion said:
			
		

> Well I forgot to add it to the character's items (and thx for reminding me), but he'll be using a ring of force shield to gain a shield bonus to AC, which will let him benefit from the effect of divine shield.  The item description says:
> 
> Now if one focuses on the first part, which includes "can be wielded by the wearer as if it were a heavy shield," it might seem that this would remove monk benefits such as AC, fast movement, etc.  However, the next line makes it pretty clear that this is no kind of encumbrence for the character.  Combining that with the "as if it were" line makes me think that a monk can use this item without penalty and furthermore, a monk palading can use this fine along with divine shield.  This is obviously a DM call though, so LR's input would be wonderful.




However, because it is considered a heavy shield, it negates the monk bonus to AC, regardless of whether it inflicts encumbrance penalties or not.



			
				srd said:
			
		

> AC Bonus (Ex)
> 
> When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).
> 
> These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.




It says nothing about the shield or armor having to inflict any sort of encumbrance penalty for her to lose the bonus, only that she carries a shield.  Because the ring says that the shield can be wielded as a heavy shield it looks pretty clear that it's basically equivalent to a heavy shield made of force sans armor check penalties or arcane spell failure.  You have to carry something to wield it.


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## gabrion (May 15, 2006)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> However, because it is considered a heavy shield, it negates the monk bonus to AC, regardless of whether it inflicts encumbrance penalties or not.
> 
> 
> 
> It says nothing about the shield or armor having to inflict any sort of encumbrance penalty for her to lose the bonus, only that she carries a shield.  Because the ring says that the shield can be wielded as a heavy shield it looks pretty clear that it's basically equivalent to a heavy shield made of force sans armor check penalties or arcane spell failure.  You have to carry something to wield it.




We'll I'll admit that I'm on shaky ground here, which is why I said I would need a DM ruling on this.  If the DM thinks that the reason monks can't use shield/armor without loosing their AC bonus is realted to encumbrance, then it would make sense to allow them to use an item like this.  If it's more metaphysical than that, then I suppose it won't work.

I'm glad you gave the response you did though, because I was missing something very important about the monk AC bonus.  It doesn't say that using a shield is causes them to lose the bonus, but that _carrying a shield does.  With this in mind, it seems that an animated shield would work nicely to solve my problem._


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## Ferrix (May 15, 2006)

It really should just read "uses a shield" to get rid of any confusion of whether it has to be carried, wielded, worn, etc. and to clear up funny loopholes like an animated shield or the force shield ring.


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## Ferrix (May 15, 2006)

Still trying to figure out what to do with my character as gabrions basically fills most of his niche.


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## gabrion (May 15, 2006)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Still trying to figure out what to do with my character as gabrions basically fills most of his niche.




Well keep in mind that Aramel is made to be a defensive aggro type character, so if you have a mind to make a paladin/knight type that's more offensive in nature, there is definately room for something like that.


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## Question (May 15, 2006)

Im already in the offensive melee role though.


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## Rhun (May 15, 2006)

I've got the arcane caster portion covered, or at least I will if I can finish tweaking the character I designed for Lord Wyrm's game that never got started...


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## Velmont (May 15, 2006)

Wow, miss the thread for a good while. I had submitted my Monk/Psychic Warrior before the crash. If there is still a place, I am willing to join again. It can be with my Monk/Psychic Warrior or with another character if there is some missing talent in the group. If my poor Spot roll in the Talking the Talk thread have made lost my place, well, maybe another time.


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## Shayuri (May 15, 2006)

I definitely want to try the Beguiler class from PHBII...the question is what to gestalt it with. 

Things I've considered:

Rogue: Complements skill monkeyish nature, sneak attack will stack with the Cloaked Casting. Both can wear Light armor with no penalty. But kind of...bland. Of course, adding in a PrC, like Shadowdancer, helps combat that.

Monk: Great powers, but one of the advantages of Beguilers is that they cast spells in armor...which monks can't wear.

Duskblade: This one is tempting. A whole BUNCH of spells per day, all of which can be cast in armor, spontaneously, using Int as a spellcasting stat. Plus, the melee power of Duskblade helps offset the fact that the Beguiler's feinting power can only be used in melee. And Spell Channeling could be used in concert with Cloaked Casting to deliver quite a wallop.

...

I'm also considering one of the Shadow mage classes from Tome of Magic...they seem to fit the mindset.

Anyone else have thoughts on what class might complement a Beguiler gestalt?


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## Velmont (May 15, 2006)

Hmmm... I don't even know what is a Beguiler.


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## gabrion (May 15, 2006)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Anyone else have thoughts on what class might complement a Beguiler gestalt?




I don't have the PHBII, but it seems like someone said the Beguiler is an INT based caster class.  Given that, Incarnate could make a nice addition (Incarnuma tends to be a good addition to most things, but especially in based classes).


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## Question (May 15, 2006)

We are probably missing a rogue or cleric.

Btw : 

Response (Trevor K.)	05/15/2006 10:12 AM
Hey there Kira. Even though it doesn't encumber the character, you do still have to wield it and it counts as a heavy shield. So if your character loses certain benefits for wielding a shield, they would lose those benefits for wielding the shield provided by the ring. So your monk would not be able to use those class abilities while using this ring. Have fun and good gaming!

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## Velmont (May 15, 2006)

I love Rogue. I was thinking a Rogue/Warlock would be great, but due to the presence of a Warlock/Bard, played by Scotely, another combo might be better. I'll take a look at some combo of Divine Caster/Rogue.


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## gabrion (May 15, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> Btw :
> 
> Response (Trevor K.)	05/15/2006 10:12 AM
> 
> ...




Right...the same Trevor K. who once said that Arcane Hierophant doesn't grant wildshape ability for druids who aren't 5th level or higher, and then turned around and gave the exact opposite answer?  The same Trevor K. who says that Persistent Spell can be used with touch spells? Or that moving diagonally through one sqaure of rough terrain and one sqaure of normal terrain counts as moving five squares?  Ya, I think I'll just wait on the DM ruling for this one...Trevor (along with many other custserv reps) has proven over and over that he doesn't take much time in analyzing questions before answering them.


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## Shayuri (May 15, 2006)

Just FYI...a Beguiler is basically a spellcasting rogue, with emphasis on illusion, enchantment and some utility/rogue spells (like Knock and so on).


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## Ferrix (May 15, 2006)

Since it looks like melee is covered, I think I might go with an archer of some sort.  Either a sorcerer-fighter into Arcane Archer, or a cleric-archer type.  Elf both ways probably.


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## Amazing Triangle (May 16, 2006)

WOOT WOOT I get to be the "Healer"!
*Hey Question I am a Cleric!*

Cleric 10/Healer 10
She will be Devona Rift, Combat Medic
Stats to come


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## Question (May 16, 2006)

Gabrion : I never got funny rulings like that from wizards, maybe they just made a mistake then.


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## gabrion (May 16, 2006)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Since it looks like melee is covered, I think I might go with an archer of some sort.  Either a sorcerer-fighter into Arcane Archer, or a cleric-archer type.  Elf both ways probably.




If you decide to go the divine route for an archer, a cleric 3/church inquisitor 6/soulbow 1//soulknife 2/ninja 3/peerless archer 3/saint 2 would make a really strong character.  I would recommend the elf and war domains, for point blank shot and weapon focus with the longbow.  In the end you would have some really nice WIS synergy, adding it to:

Attacks
AC twice
Damage
Cleric casting DCs and bonus spells

Plus with rapid shot and TWF (and buffing yourself with divine power) you would have four shots per round, all of which you could use power shot with (subtract an amout from your attack and add it to damage, like power attack for melee weapons) - not to mention all the goodies from the saint template (if it's allowed).  If you were willing to be human and pick up a few sub-optimal feats, you could grab a level of Shiba protector from OA to add WIS to attack and damage _again_.  

If you wanted a divine skill-monkey archer, then you could go for something like Archivist 7/Sacred Exorcist 3//Scout 5/Psychic Warrior 4/??? 1, using hustle with the scout's skirmish to good effect.  This feat would be best served by using a divine metamagic persistent divine power.


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## gabrion (May 16, 2006)

Amazing Triangle said:
			
		

> WOOT WOOT I get to be the "Healer"!
> *Hey Question I am a Cleric!*
> 
> Cleric 10/Healer 10
> ...




If you want to be a super effective healer, it might be worth looking into some PrCs.  One possible alternative to what you put forth would be a Cleric 5/Combat Medic (Heroes of Battle) 5//Healer 10.  Feats would look like:

1: Dodge
1 (Campaign Bonus): Combat Casting
1 (Human Bonus): Maximize Spell
3: Mastery of Day and Night (Player's Guide to Eberron)
6: Dragon Prophesier (Magic of Eberron)
9: Prophecy's Shepherd (Magic of Eberron)

With all this, every healing spell you cast would automatically be maximized, plus you could cast one quickened healing spell each round (which would also be maximized).  Add this to the great stuff you get form Combat Medic and it makes for a super-effective healing PC.


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## Ferrix (May 16, 2006)

gabrion said:
			
		

> If you decide to go the divine route for an archer, a cleric 3/church inquisitor 6/soulbow 1//soulknife 2/ninja 3/peerless archer 3/saint 2 would make a really strong character.  I would recommend the elf and war domains, for point blank shot and weapon focus with the longbow.  In the end you would have some really nice WIS synergy, adding it to:
> 
> Attacks
> AC twice
> ...




Interesting builds Gabrion, not exactly the choices I was going for, but interesting nonetheless.

Your first build however doesn't work in standard gestalt rules since you use two PrC's in the same level, nor can you qualify for peerless archer without a +7 BAB.  Also, wasn't really planning on working the psi-power angle.

Also, Saint requires 3 exalted feats to qualify as well, so good luck fitting the pre-reqs in.


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## gabrion (May 16, 2006)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Interesting builds Gabrion, not exactly the choices I was going for, but interesting nonetheless.
> 
> Your first build however doesn't work in standard gestalt rules since you use two PrC's in the same level, nor can you qualify for peerless archer without a +7 BAB.  Also, wasn't really planning on working the psi-power angle.
> 
> Also, Saint requires 3 exalted feats to qualify as well, so good luck fitting the pre-reqs in.




Ya, sorry...that was all thrown together without books, so I obviously overlooked quite a bit.  Even just the zen archer cleric/soulknife/ninja/soulbow is pretty effective though.  Throwing a chaotic incarnate into an archery build is pretty nice with sighted gloves and incarnate avatar.  IIRC those two soulmelds get them something like +3 to ranged attacks and +4 damage on ranged attacks (both insight bonuses).  Anyway, I'm probably being annoying by spaming all these ideas out, so I'll just shut up for a while.


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## Question (May 16, 2006)

A saint template can only be acquired though, if you just take it at char generation its overpowered for +2 LA.


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## Shayuri (May 16, 2006)

Spent the money! All that's left now is the description and background!

[sblock]Name: Ilshana / Whisper
Race: Human
Class/Level: Beguiler 10 / Duskblade 10
Exp: 

Desc: Pending

Strength (STR) 10
Dexterity (DEX)	20
Constitution (CON) 14		
Intelligence (INT) 22
Wisdom (WIS) 14		
Charisma (CHA) 14	

Alignment: Neutral
AC: 24 (10 +5 Dex +7 armor, +2 Deflection)
Hit Points: 68
Movement: 30' 

Base Attack Bonus: +10
Init: +5
Melee Attack: +10 (+15 w/finesse)
Ranged Attack: +15
Fort: +12
Reflex: +11
Will: +12

Race Abilities
Bonus Feat
Bonus Skills

Class Abilities:
Armored Mage
Trapfinding
Cloaked Casting, +1DC, +2 vs Spell Pen
Surprise Casting (Swift action)
Bonus Feats: Silent Spell and Still Spell
Advanced Learning
1st level: Magic Aura
3rd level: Heroism

Arcane Attunement (Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Flare, Ghost Sound, Read Magic, 7/day)
Armored Mage (med armor, hvy shield)
Bonus Feat: Combat Casting
Arcane Channeling
Quick Cast 2/day
Spell Power +2 vs spell pen

Skills:	133
Bluff +15 (13 ranks +2 Cha)
Concentration +15 (13 ranks +2 Con)
Diplomacy +19 (13 ranks + 2 Cha, +2 Bluff, +2 Sense Motive)
Disable Device +19 (13 ranks + 6 Int)
Gather Info +10 (6 ranks +2 Cha, +2 Knowledge: Local)
Knowledge: Arcana +15 (9 ranks + 6 Int)
Knowledge: Local +15 (9 ranks + 6 Int)
Search +19 (13 ranks + 6 Int)
Sense Motive +15 (13 ranks +2 Wis)
Speak Languages - (4 ranks)
Spellcraft +17 (9 ranks + 6 Int, +2 Knowledge: Arcana)
Tumble +8 (5 ranks +3 Dex)
Use Magic Device +15 (13 ranks + 2 Cha)

Feats
1 Eschew Materials
1 Combat Expertise
3 Weapon Finesse
6 Improved Feint
9 Spell Focus: Enchantment

Languages - Common, Draconic, Elvish, Dwarf, Halfling, Gnome, Orcish, Goblin

Spells (Beguiler)
Slots
0 - 6/6, 1 - 8/8, 2 - 8/8, 3 - 7/7, 4 - 6/6, 5 - 4/4

0 - Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Message, Open/Close, Read Magic
1 - Charm Person, Color Spray, Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Disguise Self,
Expeditious Retreat, Hypnotism, Mage Armor, Obscuring Mist, Rouse, Silent Image, Sleep,
Undetectable Alignment, Whelm
2 - Blinding Color Surge, Blur, Daze Monster, Detect Thoughts, Fog Cloud, Glitterdust,
Hypnotic Pattern, Invisibility, Knock, Minor Image, Mirror Image, Misdirection, See Invisible,
Silence, Spider Climb, Stay the Hand, Touch of Idiocy, Vertigo, Whelming Burst
3 - Arcane Sight, Clairvoyance/Clairaudience, Crown of Veils, Deep Slumber, Dispel Magic,
Displacement, Glibness, Halt, Haste, Hesitate, Hold Person, Inevitable Defeat, Invis Sphere,
Legion of Sentinels, Major Image, Nondetection, Slow, Suggestion, Vertigo Field,
Zone of Silence
4 - Charm Monster, Confusion, Crushing Despair, Freedom of Movement, Greater Invisibility,
Greater Mirror Image, Locate Creature, Mass Whelm, Phantom Battle, Rainbow Pattern, Solid Fog
5 - Break Enchantment, Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Friend to Foe, Hold Monster, Incite Riot,
Mind Fog, Telepathic Bond, Seeming, Sending, Swift Etherealness

Spells (Duskblade)
Slots
0 - 6/6, 1 - 10/10, 2 - 9/9, 3 - 4/4

Known
0 Acid Splash, Disrupt Undead, Ray of Frost, Touch of Fatigue
1 Chill Touch, Ray of Enfeeblement, Resist Energy, Shocking Grasp, True Strike
2 Bear's Endurance, Darkvision, Scorching Ray, Dimension Hop
3 Protection from Energy, Vampiric Touch

Money - 29gp, 4sp

Weapons -	    	
Spell Storing Rapier +2, +17 to hit, 1d6+2 dmg, 3lbs, 18320gp

Armour -
Glamered Mithril Chain Shirt +3, AC +6, Max Dex +6, 10lbs, 12800gp

Gear -
- In Haversack 
Bedroll, 1sp, 5lbs
Blanket, 5sp, 3lbs
50' silk rope, 10gp, 5lbs
Tent, 10gp, 20lbs
Waterskin, 1gp, 4lbs
10 days trail rations, 5gp, 10lbs
Everburning Torch, 110gp, 1lb

- On person
2 scroll cases, 2gp, 1lb
2 belt pouches, 2gp, 1lb

- In Pouches
Small steel mirror, 10gp, .5lb
Caltrops, 1gp, 2lbs
Money

-Mount!
Light Warhorse, 150gp
Riding Saddle, 10gp, 25lbs
Saddlebags, 4gp, 8lbs

Magic -
Vest of Resistance +3, 9000
Gloves of Dexterity +4, 16000
Headband of Intellect +4, 16000
Ring of Protection +2, 8000
Handy Haversack, 2000
Wand of Barkskin, 4500
Wand of Shield, 750
Potion Cure Moderate Wounds, 300

Background: 
Pending[/sblock]


----------



## Amazing Triangle (May 16, 2006)

gabrion said:
			
		

> If you want to be a super effective healer, it might be worth looking into some PrCs.  One possible alternative to what you put forth would be a Cleric 5/Combat Medic (Heroes of Battle) 5//Healer 10.  Feats would look like:
> 
> 1: Dodge
> 1 (Campaign Bonus): Combat Casting
> ...




You have great feats but you forgot Augment Healing probably the best healing feat ever. I may do this route I have to check teh requirements for Combat Medic (I wanted to go this way just thought it had a higher requirement.  I don't know the Eberron feats not a big fan of the material but I will take a look.


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## Velmont (May 16, 2006)

I was thinking to try a spellcaster with deep pocket (Very deep pocket) and versatility (very wide versatility).

Here the build I was thinking:

At level 3: Wizards 3//Psion 3
At level 10: Wizard 3/Cebremancer7//Psion 3/Archivist 7

Which mean that guy could cast divine, arcane and psionic.

Or I could do an old concept I had in a none-Gestlat game, a dwarven Trapmaker. He was a rogue. The advanatge with that, it is he will be able to Gestlat with a spellcaster class and create magical trap too. The caster class could be either Warlock, Wizard or Artificier. most likely there will be no PrC with that concept.


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## Ferrix (May 16, 2006)

You can't use the classes which specifically duplicate the abilities of two classes (i.e. mystic theurge & similar classes) thus cerebremancer is out, lest the DM rules against that in which case that's a whole new ball game.


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## Velmont (May 16, 2006)

I am not familiar with the Gestalt rules, but what I have seen is more than a warning than an official ruling, and it is for that reason I was asking before starting to build that character.


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## Ferrix (May 16, 2006)

srd said:
			
		

> A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.




From the Gestalt Characters section in the SRD.


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## Velmont (May 16, 2006)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-*should* be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.




That's the keyword that sound more like a big flashy warning rather than a rules... that's why I was asking, but it was just an idea among a lot of other I have and it isn't sure I would end with it. Tonight, I'll have my books underhand and I,ll be able to come with an interesting concept.


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## Ferrix (May 16, 2006)

No problem, was just providing info.

I think I'm going to focus more right now on getting a concept I want to play rather than a bunch of crunchy bits that are highly effective and work out the stats later.  That way I don't get sidetracked by all of the crunch options available.


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## Velmont (May 16, 2006)

Yeah. There is a lot of thing that I am interested to try. I've got my hand lately on the four Complete and Eberron. I've been playing so much core character that I want to try something new.


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## Ferrix (May 16, 2006)

Velmont said:
			
		

> Yeah. There is a lot of thing that I am interested to try. I've got my hand lately on the four Complete and Eberron. I've been playing so much core character that I want to try something new.




Ooo... you have now given me my character concept that I will run with.

Shifter Druid - Barbarian/Ranger 

Eberron and Compete books... thanks Velmont... this way I don't have to think too much and can create a character thats been in the back of my mind for a while.


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## Velmont (May 16, 2006)

Happy to help you... do you have something to inspred me


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## Ferrix (May 16, 2006)

Velmont said:
			
		

> Happy to help you... do you have something to inspred me




Well, with the Eberron book and the complete books you have a lot of options.

If you had Races of Destiny or this weblink from the wizards site, Chameleon makes a fun and nasty surprise in Gestalt games.

Combine it with a Changeling who is a Rogue/Artificer or Warlock/Artificer or Rogue/Warlock and you have some really fun places to go with such an incredibly versatile character.  You can be basically anyone/anything you feel like.  Such a build can make an incredibly interesting rogue that much more interesting.  You can make anything you feel like (as an artificer), cast almost any spell you feel like with the Chameleon's ability to pick from any spell list, just a fun all around idea.

Or... if you want a different route...

The slap a template or two on to a warforged for an interesting twist to the old warrior type, some interesting templates to add would be Phrenic, Half-Celestial, Half-Dragon, or Half-Fiend.

Lastly, Kalashtar are probably one of the best psionic races and you could make a psionic paragon (go psion one side, wilder the other, check out Complete Psionic for more cool stuff).

Just some thoughts for ya.


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## Velmont (May 16, 2006)

The changeling Warlock/Rogue was something I was thinking about really much. But there is already a Warlock/Bard in this game... but thanks, I'll take a look at all that.


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## Amazing Triangle (May 17, 2006)

My healer! Tell me what you think!
[sblock]
* Devona Rift , Human Medic ( Cleric 5\Combat Medic 5/Healer 10 ):* CR 10; Medium-size; HD10d8+30; HP 79; Init 2; Spd 30 ft.; AC 26 {10+3 Dex+9 armor+0 shield+2 Def.+1 NA+1 Insight}, touch 17, flat-footed 23 (+1 natural); BAB +9/+4; Grap +11; Atk;+12/+7 1d8+3  20x2

*Full Atk:* +12/+7 1d8+3  20x2
Space/Reach 5 ft/5 ft; 

SA: Turn Undead 11/day, Cleanse Paralysis (Remove Paralysis 1/day), Cleanse Disease (Remove Disease 1/day), Cleanse Fear (Remove Fear 1/day), Cleanse Poison (Neutralize Poison 1/day), Cleanse Blindness (Remove Blindness 1/day), Cleanse Spirit (Greater Restoration 1/day)
Once per round for up to 10/day
Kickers: Sanctuary DC 25, Reflex +5, Aid (+13 HP, +1 morale atk and saves vs fear

SQ: Healing Hands (+5 to healer spells of healing), Effortless Healing (No attacks of opportunity when casting healing spells as a healer), Spontaneous Healer, Unicorn Familiar (20 hours/day), Evasion, Field Healer (Heal check move action, Take 10), Spontaneous Heal, Defensive Casting(level on concentration checks while defensively casting)

AL LG
SV Fort: 7+3=10, Ref: 6+3=9, Will: 7+5=12

*Stats:*
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 20

*Skills:*  91sk. Pts.
Knowledge (Religion) 13, Concentration 16 (21), Heal 21, Sense Motive 16, Spellcraft 11 
*Feats:* 
Augment Healing, Combat Casting, Dodge, Extra Turning, Sacred Healing, Mastery of Day and Night
Mobility

*Prepared Spells:* (as a 10th level Cleric)  Domains: Healing, Time
DC 15+Spell level [Prays for spells at Day break]
0th – 6, 1st – 4+1+2, 2nd – 4+1+1, 3rd – 3+1+1, 4th – 3+1+1, 5th – 2+1+1
0 level – 2Light, Purify Food and Drink, Guidance, Mending, Amanuensis 
1st level – Obscuring mist, Vigor (lesser) (15rds FH 1), Inhibit, Shield of Faith, Domain: True Strike
2nd level – Divine Insight, Quick March, Close wounds, Divine Protection, Stabilize, Domain: Gentle Repose
3rd level – Ring of blades, Mass Aid, Daylight, Domain: Haste
4th level – Restoration, Lesser Holy Transformation, Shield of faith (mass)Domain: Freedom of Movement 
5th level – Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Vigor (greater) (20rds FH4), Domain: Permanency 

*Prepared Spells:* (as a 10th level Healer)0-6 1st-6+2 2nd-5+1 3rd-5+1 4th-4+1 5th-4+1 
0th - 2 Cure minor wounds, 2 Purify food and drink, 2 Deathwatch
1st – 5 Cure light wounds, Protection from evil, Sanctuary, Remove Fear
2nd – 3 Cure moderate wounds, 2 lesser restoration, remove blindness/deafness
3rd – 3 Cure serious wounds, Close wounds, Status, Restoration
4th – 2 Cure critical wounds, Mass cure light wounds, Panacea, Freedom of movement
5th – 2 Mass cure moderate wounds, Revivify, Stone to flesh, Break enchantment

*Possessions:*
+4 Mithral Chain Shirt (20175), +1 Morningstar (4315), Belt of Con +2 (4000), Periapt of Wis +4 (16000), Cloak of Cha +4 (16000), Gloves of Dex +2, Ring of Sustence (2500), Ring of Protection +2 (8000), Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2000), 1,500 gp of diamonds, Silver dagger (22), Cold Iron Dagger (4), Ever burning Torch (110), 100ft Silk Rope (20), Backpack (2), Signal whistle (.80), 2 grappling hook (2), Ink (8), 2 Inkpen (.20), 5 Parchment (1), Notebook (20), Ioun Stone (5000),Bag of Holding Type I (all small items are in), 321gp 

[/sblock]


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## Velmont (May 17, 2006)

As I won't be able to write down a character until next week, I'll just let that game go. Good game all!


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## Question (May 17, 2006)

Play a Wizard/Crossdresser till level 5 then take levels in the Lord of the wedding dress PRC. You end up casting spells with the Crossdress descriptor at +5 CL by the end of the PRC's path.


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## Ferrix (May 17, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> Play a Wizard/Crossdresser till level 5 then take levels in the Lord of the wedding dress PRC. You end up casting spells with the Crossdress descriptor at +5 CL by the end of the PRC's path.




Question, where do you come up with this stuff?  Really?  It's ridiculous and not really funny at all.


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## Question (May 17, 2006)

Im not interested in whether you think its funny or not. Surely you have something better to do than going around making "useful" comments like this?


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## Amazing Triangle (May 17, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> Im not interested in whether you think its funny or not. Surely you have something better to do than going around making "useful" comments like this?




You have to admit that your comment of the wedding dress PrC was from another game and I think I am one of the few here that read that comment.  So please try to be on topic about things.  That is all Ferrix was saying.


----------



## Question (May 17, 2006)

What are you talking about? Nothing i said was related to another game. Regardless i dont want to argue this anymore.....


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## Amazing Triangle (May 17, 2006)

Hey LR is my character ok?


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (May 17, 2006)

Okay I'm really really busy today, I've just returned from a two day business trip and I'm very very busy, have I mentioned that I'm busy.  

So thanks for those who've created your characters, when I get a chance I'll have a look thru them, I'll also try to answer any questions you have posed.

Gabrion: 
Regarding the ring of force, I'll have to say it does count as a shield, which would interfer with the Monks AC bonuses.


----------



## Scotley (May 17, 2006)

Welcome back, we'll try to be patient.


----------



## gabrion (May 17, 2006)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> Gabrion:
> Regarding the ring of force, I'll have to say it does count as a shield, which would interfer with the Monks AC bonuses.




Thanks for the ruling.  At the risk of being really annoying, can I ask if an animated shield would also interfere with the monk's AC bonus?


----------



## Ferrix (May 17, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> Im not interested in whether you think its funny or not. Surely you have something better to do than going around making "useful" comments like this?




Never said my comment was useful.  However, I did say that it was ridiculous, and will add out of place and odd to that list.  Although, I never did get an answer as to why you habitually make reference to crossdressing elves and such blather.

On to game stuff then...

LR, question about templates, is the Feral template alright, and is the Spellwarped Template alright?


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (May 18, 2006)

gabrion said:
			
		

> Thanks for the ruling.  At the risk of being really annoying, can I ask if an animated shield would also interfere with the monk's AC bonus?



Okay I've been thinking about this and it seems that the reason that the monk loses his AC bonus is either when he is weighted down with two much equipment (Medium load or greater) or when wearing/using armour and shields which restrict his movement.

So the reason the ring of force shield affects his AC bonus, is because it restricts his movement, even though it's weightless he still has to use the ring as if he is holding a shield, however an animated shield requires no action on the monks part to actually use it (other than the command word), and since he isn't affected by the animated shields weight I'm happy for you to use an animated shield.

Anyway that's my ruling on this, I'm sure it could be argued back and forth, but lets stick with my imperfect interpretation of this for the time being.

Can everyone please post their characters in the RG's, as this will enable me to check them by accessing the same place.


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (May 18, 2006)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Never said my comment was useful.  However, I did say that it was ridiculous, and will add out of place and odd to that list.  Although, I never did get an answer as to why you habitually make reference to crossdressing elves and such blather.
> 
> On to game stuff then...
> 
> LR, question about templates, is the Feral template alright, and is the Spellwarped Template alright?



The feral template is fine as a +2 template, as the general consensus is that it is broken at a +1 LA, and I don't know anything about the spellwarped template, so you'll need to let me know about it.


----------



## Ferrix (May 18, 2006)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> The feral template is fine as a +2 template, as the general consensus is that it is broken at a +1 LA, and I don't know anything about the spellwarped template, so you'll need to let me know about it.




+2 works with me, I agree on that ruling 100%, drop my level of barbarian   I'm liking this character 

*Spellwarped (MM III):*
- _Str +4, Dex +2, Con +4, Int +4_
- _Spell Resistance 11 + HD_
- _+2 to Natural Armor_
- _Spell Absorption: Whenever a spell fails to penetrate a spellwarped creatures spell resistance, the creature gains one of the following benefits, chosen at the time that the spell resolves.
Might: +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, duration 1 minute.
Endurance: +4 enhancement bonus to Constitution, duration 1 minute.
Agility: +4 enhancement bonus to Dexterity, duration 1 minute.
Life: Gains temporary hit points equal to 5 x level of the failed spell
Speed: Base speed increases by 5 x level of the failed spell
Resistance: Gains Resistance 10 to one energy type.
- Level Adjustment +3_


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (May 18, 2006)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> +2 works with me, I agree on that ruling 100%, drop my level of barbarian   I'm liking this character
> 
> *Spellwarped (MM III):*
> - _Str +4, Dex +2, Con +4, Int +4_
> ...



_
Cool, I look forward to seeing it._


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## Amazing Triangle (May 18, 2006)

Oh I hope you don't mind I took an ideal over a diety (unless you have one that fits) Healing/Time.  Speed healing.  That everyone deserves one chance (undead had their chance) and she believes that they should be given a fair chance to survive.  

She knows that healing takes time and lives can be lost due to time.  Hence her choices


----------



## Question (May 18, 2006)

Btw grabion i quoted your reply, this is what he has to say :  

Response (Trevor K.)	05/16/2006 09:09 AM
Hey Kira. I'm sorry if you feel like you can't get a correct answer from us, and especially me. The answer I gave you on the shield ring are correct. I'm also sorry I've made mistakes in the past, and apparently those mistakes are unforgivable and have stuck with you quite well. You can wait for a DM ruling, since that is what ultimately sets the rules for the campaign you're playing in, but the shield ring does work the way I described. Good gaming!

We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.

To login to your account, or update your question please click here.

Trevor
Customer Service Representative
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Friday 7am-6pm PST / 10am-9pm EST

Btw an animated shield quite clearly says it imposes the normal penalties of using a shield. Presumably this is because the shield is flying around you blocking blows, and generally getting in your way, the same way a normal shield would. Its only benefit is allowing you to use a 2 handed weapon with a shield bonus.


----------



## Amazing Triangle (May 18, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> The answer I gave you on the shield ring are correct.




Not to kick a dead horse but I can see how this person could get things wrong in rulings.  He needed to give "The answers I gave you on the shield ring are correct" or "The answer I gave you on the shield ring is correct"  

But honestly What is the Age of Heroes in Fearun?  I actually don't know any history of Fearun.


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## Question (May 18, 2006)

I assumed it was a homebrew adventure.....


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## gabrion (May 18, 2006)

Question,

Trevor, along with the rest of the crew at Custserv, isn't a bad guy IMO.  Actually, he's just doing his job to the best of his ability and trying to make the best of it.  The problem I have though is that Custserv in general seems to be a rapid response program that often gives answers without putting a lot of thought or research into it.

Think of how customer service works pretty much anywhere.  I know I've had to call them for various computer issues, internet hookup, cable TV, cell phone service, etc.  Very seldom to I get the real solution to my problem the first time around.  The reason for this is that people who work in customer service departments are trained to be generalists rather than to talk about specific issues, that is _until the issue comes up,_ at which point they have to wing it a bit. 

As I said in  the beginning, doing that kind of thing is a tough job and I won't knock em for doing it.  However, from our perspective, we should realize that there are better places to find out about D+D rules issues than WotC custserv.  Go over to the rules board and ask a question.  Look for people like Hypersmurf and Patryn of Elvenshea (sp?) (just to name a few) to weigh in on issues.  These guys know rules nuances that are often overlooked by people like custserv, since they have to devote time to stuff like Neopets.  Even better yet, go over to the WotC boards and look for the optimization boards.  The folks on there are generally some of the most knowledgable people about D+D rules you'll ever find.

The bottom line is that you should be careful who you're taking as a real authority on game rules.

As for the animated shield, LR has made his ruling on it and if he chooses to reverse it I'd be fine with that, but for now I'm going to play with what he's said.


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## Wrahn (May 18, 2006)

Just out of curiousity, is there still space available?


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## Ferrix (May 18, 2006)

Amazing Triangle said:
			
		

> Oh I hope you don't mind I took an ideal over a diety (unless you have one that fits) Healing/Time.  Speed healing.  That everyone deserves one chance (undead had their chance) and she believes that they should be given a fair chance to survive.
> 
> She knows that healing takes time and lives can be lost due to time.  Hence her choices




In standard Forgotten Realms you need to have a deity if you cast divine spells.



			
				Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting said:
			
		

> Faerunian clerics function as described in the Players Handbook except that no clerics serve just a cause, philosophy, or abstract source of divine power.  The Torilian deities are very real, and events in recent history have forced these divine beings to pay a great deal of attention to their mortal followers.
> 
> All clerics in Faerun serve a patron deity.  (In fact, most people in Faerun choose a deity as their patron.)  It is simply impossible for a person to gain divine powers (such as divine spells) without one.  You may not have more than one patron deity at a time, although, it is possible to change your patron deity if you have a change of heart.  You cannot multiclass into another class that requires a patron deity unless your previous patron deity is an acceptable choice for the new class.  For example, you cannot multiclass as a druid unless your patron deity is a nature deity (since all druids have nature deities as patron deities).




You can check out the list of deities here.


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## Ferrix (May 18, 2006)

I can't find a specific reference to the age of heroes in the Forgotten Realms timelines, but I imagine it's before the common era of years.

Check out Realms timelines here.  LordRaven if you could give us an approximate year that'd be great.


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## Amazing Triangle (May 18, 2006)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> In standard Forgotten Realms you need to have a deity if you cast divine spells.
> You can check out the list of deities here.




You know that is why I didn't look there are none that fit what I was looking for for this character.  I mean there are healing dieties all two of them...I was thinking of having a loose affiliation with Berronar Truesilver the dwarven diety of healing.


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## Rhun (May 18, 2006)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Just out of curiousity, is there still space available?





If Wrahn wants to take my place is this adventure, that is jake by me. I'm running really low on time these days, and so I'm going to bow out of this one. Good gaming my friends!


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## Ferrix (May 18, 2006)

Amazing Triangle said:
			
		

> You know that is why I didn't look there are none that fit what I was looking for for this character.  I mean there are healing dieties all two of them...I was thinking of having a loose affiliation with Berronar Truesilver the dwarven diety of healing.




Thus the problem of being a cleric, you have to adhere in some way to a deity to receive divine power.

I did count 7 deities with the healing domain however in the Campaign Setting.


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## Lord_Raven88 (May 18, 2006)

Wrahn:
We have space for one more victim character.

Amazing Triangle:
Regarding a deity pick a name of your deity, we can always assume that she was alive during this time period but later was killed and forgotten by the general populace.

'Age of Heroes' is more of a concept than an actual factual timeline in the FR history, surfice it to say that this adventure is set before the downfall of the mighty Netheril empire, back when mortals were much more powerful than they currently are(i.e. Gestalt, actions points etc), when the world was still young the gap between mortals and the Gods was much less, with the downfall of the Netheril empire the Gods imposed restrictions upon mortals, so that the whole world would never be threathened again by the act of a few mighty individuals.

During the  'Age of Heroes' powerful magic was much more commonplace, mighty heroes stalked the land thwarting the plans the fearsome villians, this period of time was marked by extremes, people were either incredibly good, or dispicable evil.  

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times"

Ferrix:
Lets assume that the year is -20000, I'm going to keep it pretty vague at this point, if the adventure goes well I _might_ look at starting a regular Gestalt campaign, if I do that the starting level will be between 3-6.


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## Amazing Triangle (May 18, 2006)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> Amazing Triangle:
> Regarding a deity pick a name of your deity, we can always assume that she was alive during this time period but later was killed and forgotten by the general populace.




Nice ummm... Xeros the Healer    God of healing and time.  Domains Time, Healing, Good, and Joy.


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## Wrahn (May 19, 2006)

Okay, this is a character modified from a similar game.  Goliath is from races of stone, +1 level Adjust, pretty standard fare (abilities are described), the Monster of Legend is from the Fiend Folio (as in the 3.0 Fiend Folio) and the level adjust comes from the 3.0 to 3.5 converstion pack.

The god he worshipped, lets call Valadis.  Seeker of inner knowledge through conflict.

Ununkua’em the Vanquisher







Race: Phrenic Goliath of Legend (Medium Outsider (Native, Psionic))
Class: Cleric 5/War Mind 5
Alignment: Lawful Good


Strength:  34 (16 Base, +4 Race, +10 Legend, +4 Enhancement)
Dexterity: 18 (14 Base, -2 Race, +6 Legend)
Constitution: 32 (16 Base, +2 Race, +10 Legend, +4 Enhancement)
Intelligence: 16 (12 Base, +2 Legend, +2 Phrenic)
Wisdom: 20 (14 Base, +2 Legend, +2 Phrenic, +2 level)
Charisma: 20 (12 Base, +4 Legend, +4 Phrenic)

Abilities:
Goliath:
-Abilities: Str +4, Dex -2, Con +2
-Powerful Build:  Treated as Large in beneficial circumstances
-Mountain Movement:  Standing jumps considered running, does not take -5 to climbing for fast climbing
-Acclimated:  Doesn’t take penalties for high altitudes
-Bonus to Sense Motive: +2
-Speaks Common and Gol-Kaa
-Favored Class: Barbarian
Monster of Legend:
-Natural Armor +5
-Casts spells as a 5th level Cleric
-Haste:  Acts as if permanently Hasted
-See in Darkness:   See perfectly in Darkness, even magical darkness
-Saves: +3 to all saves
-Abilities: Str +10, Dex +6, Con +10, Int +2, Wis, +2, Cha +4
-Bonus Feats:  Improved Initiative, Multiattack
Phrenic:
-Psi-like abilities: 3/day Defensive Precognition, Empty Mind, Mind Thrust, Intellect Fortress, 1/day Force Screen, Body Adjustment, Brain Lock, Aversion, Psionic Blast, Psychic Crush
-Naturally Psionic: 1 bonus power point
-Abilities: Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4
-Power Resistance: 20 (HD +10)
Cleric:
-Knowledge Domain:  Knowledge (all) added to skill list, +1 Caster level for divination
-War Domain:  Martial Weapon Proficiency (Greatsword), Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
-Turn Undead (as 5th level cleric)
War Mind:
-Chain of Personal Superiority:  +2 Insight Bonus to Strength and Constitution for up to a minute 3/day
-Chain of Defensive Posture: +2 Insight Bonus to Armor Class for up to a minute 3/day
-Enduring Body: 1/- damage reduction
-Sweeping Strikes:  On each melee attack a war mind makes, he can choose squares he threatens that are adjacent to each other, and his attacks apply to creatures in those two squares equally. A war mind can use this ability on any attack, even an attack of opportunity or a cleave attempt.
A war mind cannot use this ability if he has moved more than 10 feet since the end of his last turn. If a war mind drops one or both of his foes with a sweeping strike, he can attempt a cleave normally; however, he makes only one cleave attempt per sweeping strike, even if he drops more than one foe.



Armor Class: 29 (10 + 9 armor, +3 Dex, +5 Natural, +1 Haste, +1 Deflection)
Hit Dice: 5d8 + 5d10 + 110 (159hp)
Initiative: +8
Move: 60ft (50ft armored)
BAB: +8

Attack: (Large Greatsword)+23/+23/+18 (8 BAB +12 Str, +1 Haste, +1 Enhancement,+1 Weapon Focus)
Damage: (Large Greatsword) 3d6 +19 (+18 Str, +1 Enhancement) 19-20/x2
Attack (Large Greatbow) +13/+13/+8 (8 BAB, +4 Dex, +1 Enhancement)
Damage: (Large Greatbow) 2d8 + 11 (+10 Str, +1 Enhancement) 20/x3

Saves:

Fort +24 (8 Base, +11 Con, +3 Legend, +2 Resistance)
Refl +15 (5 Base, +4 Dex, +3 Legend. +1 Haste, +2 Resistance)
Will +15 (5 Base, +5 Wisdom, +3 Legend, +2 Resistance)

Feats:

0: Martial Weapon Proficiency (Greatsword) (War Domain)
0: Weapon Focus (Greatsword) (War Domain)
0: Improved Initiative (Bonus)
0: Multiattack (Bonus)
1: Divine Might
1: Power Attack
3: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Great Bow
6: Cleave
9: Quicken Spell


Skills (40 Cleric, 25 Warmind):

Concentration 24 (13 Ranks, +11 Con)
Diplomacy 13 (8 Ranks, +5 Cha)
Heal 11 (6 Ranks, +5 Wis)
Intimidate 15 (10 Ranks, +5 Cha)
Knowledge (History) 5 (2 Ranks, +3 Int)
Knowledge (Psionics) 13 (8 Ranks, +3 Int, +2 Synergy) 
Spell craft 11 (8 Ranks, +3 Int)
Spot 10 (5* Ranks, +5 Wis)
*=cross class

Languages:
Common, Gol-Kaa, Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal

Cleric Spells: Caster level 10 DC 15 + spell level 6/6/5/4/4/3

0. Create Water, Detect Magic (x3), Mending, Purify Food and Drink
1. Divine Favor (x2), Bless, Shield of Faith (x2), Protection from Evil, +Magic Weapon
2. Align Weapon, Darkness, Silence, Aid, Hold Person. +Detect Thoughts
3. Deeper Darkness, Dispel Magic, Invisibility Purge, Magic Circle against Evil, +Magic Vestments
4. Divine Power, Greater Magic Weapon, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, +Divine Power
5. Righteous Might, Quickened Divine Favor, Greater Command, +Flame Strike

Psionics: Power Points 33 (20 Base +12 Wis +1 bonus) Caster Level: 5

Powers Known
1. Offensive Precognition, Offensive Prescience
2. Hustle

Equipment:

14,200 Glamered Mithral Full Plate +1
7,050  Starmetal Large Greatsword +1
1,800 Hat of Disguise
16,000 Belt of Strength +4
16,000 Amulet of Health +4
2,000 Ring of Deflection +1
4,000 Cloak of Resistance +2
4,450 Large Composite Great bow (+10 Str) +1
16,000 Winged Boots
2,500 Ring of Sustenance
2,000 Handy Haversack
750 Wand of Cure Light Wounds (50)
10 Spell Component Pouch (x2)
1 Small steel mirror
.1 Bedroll
2 Winter Blanket (x4)
2 crowbar
1 flint and steel
1 grappling hook
.5 hammer
1 pitons (x10)
20 Silk Rope (100ft)
2 Spade
50 Healers kit
25 Holy Symbol, Silver
4 Large Cold Iron Arrows (x40)
3 Large Arrows (x60)
1,152gp
4sp


----------



## Question (May 19, 2006)

I thought you HAD to be a animal creature type to take monster of legend(or something like that)?

Also technically speaking does this mean we use the netheril mage class instead? Sorcerer spell slots with no limitations on spells known, etc etc.


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## Amazing Triangle (May 19, 2006)

Um.. just one problem Monster of Legend is a +7 LA.  Or at least as far as I knew.


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## Wrahn (May 19, 2006)

The level breakdown looks like this:

1: Cleric/Goliath LA 1
2: Cleric/Phrenic LA 1
3: Cleric/Phrenic LA 2
4: Cleric/Monster of Legend LA 1
5: Cleric/Monster of Legend LA 2
6: War Mind/Monster of Legend LA 3
7: War Mind/Monster of Legend LA 4
8: War Mind/Monster of Legend LA 5
9: War Mind/Monster of Legend LA 6
10: War Mind/Monster of Legend LA 7

and Monster of Legend is limited to a few select types, one of which is monsterous humanoid, guess what a Goliath is.

RPwise, he is the champion of his diety.  A wandering warrior seeking out combat so that he can achieve a perfect state of oneness with his mind, body and spirit.


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## gabrion (May 19, 2006)

Nice one Wrahn!


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## Rhun (May 19, 2006)

gabrion said:
			
		

> Nice one Wrahn!




I concur. Now I know why Gestalt games scare me. My characters would get mashed in one round against a guy like this!


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## Ferrix (May 19, 2006)

Good to have you back Wrahn... I do miss Isida's epic game when I see you with your builds like that.


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## Question (May 20, 2006)

Monster of legend isnt in my copy of the fiend folio, nor in the 3 monster manuels. I saw it somewhere but i cant remember it.........


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## Wrahn (May 20, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> Monster of legend isnt in my copy of the fiend folio, nor in the 3 monster manuels. I saw it somewhere but i cant remember it.........




You're right, not in the Fiend Folio, but in the Monster Manual II pg 213


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## Wrahn (May 20, 2006)

Question, 

You list you chance to hit with the sword at +25/+20 and the damage done as 1d10 + 23

Okay, +10 BAB, +6 Strength, +2 Greater Weapon focus (assumed), +1 from the sword = +19
and the damage +6 Strength, +4 Greater Weapon Specialization, +1 from the sword = +11

What am I missing?  Does the Kensai give you some massive bonus to hit and damage? (I am unfamiliar with the Kensai from the Dragon)


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## Question (May 21, 2006)

Errr? I dont have greater weapon focus or greater weapon spec listed in my feat list. Are you sure you looking in the right direction? Also you are missing 2 handed weapon modifiers, the kensai class ability and the CoCL class ability.


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## Wrahn (May 21, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> Errr? I dont have greater weapon focus or greater weapon spec listed in my feat list. Are you sure you looking in the right direction? Also you are missing 2 handed weapon modifiers, the kensai class ability and the CoCL class ability.




The reason I thought you had Greater Weapon specialization is the line that you list Weapon Focus you have a comma and then G. weap spec, which I took as a Kensai Class ability of Greater Weapon Specialization (call me a radical)

And since Greater Weapon Specialization calls for greater weapon focus, I assumed (and noting the assumption) that you had greater weapon focus.

So what bonuses does the Kensai class give you?  They must be pretty significant to get +11 Damage per swing.  The reason I ask is if we ever get beyond a certain point in character development, my character is going to need another fighter BAB class and kensai is both in line with his story and seems pretty significant.


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## Question (May 21, 2006)

Are you sure you are looking at the right list? Im sure i dont have G. weapon spec listed at all.

Kensai replaces the bonus feat at 1st level for a +1 increase to attack rolls and damage that improves at 5th level and every 5th level afterwards. IMHO you would be much more suited to stacking more cleric levels and running around with divine metamagic and such to cast boosts.


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## Wrahn (May 21, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> Are you sure you are looking at the right list? Im sure i dont have G. weapon spec listed at all.
> 
> Kensai replaces the bonus feat at 1st level for a +1 increase to attack rolls and damage that improves at 5th level and every 5th level afterwards. IMHO you would be much more suited to stacking more cleric levels and running around with divine metamagic and such to cast boosts.




What I am looking at is when War Mind runs out, 5 levels from now (gotta start planning early, if I need a prestige class)

I was just following the link you provided.  Under feats and special abilities fourth line down in the left column.


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## Lord_Raven88 (May 21, 2006)

Well so far we have 6 completed characters so all we're waiting on is Ferrix, I'll give Ferrix two days to post a character, otherwise we'll begin without him.

Question:
Troile can't be a pink half-dragon, so please choose an appropriately coloured dragon, also can you please explain how you have worked out your combat modifiers for your weapon, as I'm scratching my head as to how you get +25 to hit with your Elvin Court Blade.  Also what is melee weapon mastery

Shayuri:
I'm not familiar with either the Beguiler of Duskblade, can you please summarise the abilities of each class please.

Amazing Triangle:
I know nothing about the combat medic or the healer, can you please summarise the abilities of each class please.

Wrahn:
Ununkua'em (I sure hope he has a short nickname) looks good, remind me to never allow Monster of Legend again 

Everyone else looks good, so at the latest I'll post the first IC post in two days time (Wednesday morning for me).


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## Thanee (May 22, 2006)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> The level breakdown looks like this:
> 
> 1: Cleric/Goliath LA 1
> 2: Cleric/Phrenic LA 1
> ...




Just one question out of curiosity... why would this character cast spells as a 10th-level cleric? As far as I can see, Monster of Legend does not improve cleric level in any way; it merely casts spells like a 5th-level cleric, since you already are a 5th-level cleric, that isn't really an improvement, although it might be considered a different casting ability, so you would gain both (basically two sets of 5th-level cleric spells). You certainly could take cleric levels *after* Monster of Legend, in order to improve its natural spellcasting ability, but before? I really doubt, that it works that way. 

Besides, this (the order in which abilities are gained from LA and classes) is one of the reasons, why it is a good idea to not have LA take up only one side of the Gestalt, but rather both.

This is not a 10th-level Gestalt character, this is a 20th-level regular character. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Shayuri (May 22, 2006)

Oops, sure thing. Both are in PHB 2...here's the summaries:

The Beguiler is to enchantment, illusion and roguery what the Warmage is to evocation, conjuration, and combat. Both classes have similar "structures,"  (ie - spont casting, Advanced Learning, rigid spell lists of which all spells are known), just different focus.

Hit Die: 1d6
BAB: As wizard
Saves: Good Will
Skill Points: 6+Int bonus (x4 at 1st)
Skill List: Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Info, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Local), Listen, Move Silently, OPen Lock, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device.

Spellcasting: Spontaneous, keys off of Intelligence for bonus and DC. Slots as Sorceror. Learns all spells of appropriate level from a class list.

Class Features:
*Armored Mage* - Ignore Arcane Fail Chance from light armor (doesn't include shields) for Beguiler spells only.
*Trapfinding* - As per Rogue.
*Cloaked Casting* - Spells cast on unwary targets (targets that would lack Dex bonus to AC) are more potent. Eventually gains +2 DC and ability to bypass SR.
*Silent Spell and Still Spell as bonus feats*.
*Surprise Casting* - Can use Bluff to feint in melee to deny a target Dex bonus to AC on next attack or spell cast. Can do so as a Move action, or as a Swift action if Improved Feint feat is also known.
*Advanced Learning* - Can select a spell not on the Beguiler list to add to known spells. Learned spells MUST be sorceror/wizard spells of Enchantment or Illusion schools, of  level no higher than can be cast when the ability is gained.

Note that the Class Spell List is reproduced on the character sheet under Spells Known for the Beguiler class.

*Duskblade*

A synthesis of warfare and magic, the Duskblade is most similar mechanically to a bard, though with emphasis on combat skills and spells rather than trickery and support. Despite the name, there is nothing 'shadowy' or sinister about the class. They cast spells spontaenously, with more slots per day per level than a sorceror, but FAR fewer spell picks, and from a much more limited list. Also, they can cast spells only up to 5th level, though some spells are a different level on t heir list than on the core wiz/sorceror.

Hit Die: 1d8
BAB: As fighter
Saves: Good Fort and Will
Skill Points: 2+Int bonus (x4 at 1st)
Skill List: Climb, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Jump, Knowledge (Any), Ride, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Swim

Spellcasting: Spontaneous, keys off of Intelligence for bonus and DC. Slots on new class list.  Starts knowing two 0 level and two 1st level spells from the class list. Thereafter, a duskblade learns one new spell per level, of any spell level availiable (2nd lvl spells at 5th level, 3rd level spells at 9th, etc). Gains ability to cast several cantrips as Spell Like Abilities a limited number of times per day as well (see class features).

Class Features:
*Arcane Attunement* - Use as spell like abilities: Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Flare, Ghost Sound, Read Magic a combined number of times per day equal to 3 +Int mod.
*Armored Mage* - Cast Duskblade spells in light armor with no Arcane Fail Chance. eventually allows Medium armor and shields (other than tower) as well.
*Combat Casting* - As bonus feat
*Arcane Channelling* - As standard action you can cast any known touch spell and deliver it through a melee attack. Does not provoke AoO, but spell must have casting time of 1 standard action or less. If attack hits, it does normal damage, then spell effect is resolved. At level 13, this can be done as part of a Full Attack.
*Quick Cast* - Once per day for each 5 levels (1 at lvl 5, 2 at 10, etc) a Duskblade can cast a known spell with casting time of 1 std action or less as a swift action.
*Spell Power* - When a duskblade injures a target with a melee attack, spells cast on that same target can more easily penetrate SR. Bonus starts at +2, ranging up to +5.

Class Spell List
0 Acid Splash, Disrupt Undead, Ray of Frost, Touch of Fatigue
1 Bigby's Tripping Hand, Blade of Blood, BUrning Hands, Cause Fear, Chill Touch, Color Spray, Jump, Kelgore's Firebolt, Lesser Deflect, Magic Weapon, Obscuring Mist, Ray of Enfeeblement, Resist Energy, Rouse, Shocking Grasp, Stand, Swift Expeditious Retreat, True Strike
2 Animalistic Power, Bear's Endurance, Bigby's Striking Fist, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Darkvision, Deflect, Dimension Hop, Ghoul Touch, Melf's Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, See Invisible, Seeking Ray, Spider Climb, Stretch Weapon, Sure Strike, Swift Fly, Swift Invisibility, Touch of Idiocy
3 Crown of Might, Crown of Protection, Dispelling Touch, Doom Scarabs, Energy Aegis, Energy Surge, Greater Magic Weapon, Halt, Keen Edge, Protection from Energy, Ray of Exhaustion, Regroup, Vampiric Touch
4 Bigby's Interposing Hand, Channeled Pyroburst, Dimension Door, Dispel Magic, Enervate, Fire Shield, Phantasmal Killer, Shout, Toxic Weapon
5 Bigby's Clenched Fist, Chain Lightning, Disintegrate, Hold Monster, Polar Ray, Slashing Dispel, Sonic Shield, Waves of Fatigue


----------



## Wrahn (May 22, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Just one question out of curiosity... why would this character cast spells as a 10th-level cleric? As far as I can see, Monster of Legend does not improve cleric level in any way; it merely casts spells like a 5th-level cleric, since you already are a 5th-level cleric, that isn't really an improvement, although it might be considered a different casting ability, so you would gain both (basically two sets of 5th-level cleric spells). You certainly could take cleric levels *after* Monster of Legend, in order to improve its natural spellcasting ability, but before? I really doubt, that it works that way.
> 
> Besides, this (the order in which abilities are gained from LA and classes) is one of the reasons, why it is a good idea to not have LA take up only one side of the Gestalt, but rather both.
> 
> ...




I agree that ECL and gestalt don't make a happy pairing, but I don't think the answer is taking both sides.  That is just a different problem (+20 ECL races for instance).  The best solution I saw was to multiply the LA of the race by 1.5 and proceed from there on one side.

As far as the Cleric levels and the Monster of Legend levels not stacking, I don't really see it as a problem.  I agree the caster level shouldn't exceed the hit dice, but it can come up in other circumstance:

1:Fighter/Rogue
2:Fighter/Wizard
3:Rogue/Wizard
4:Rogue/Wizard
5:Rogue/Wizard
6:Rogue/Wizard
7:Rogue/Wizard
8:LoreMaster/Wizard
9:LoreMaster/Wizard
10:Fighter/Rogue

This is a poor design meant to illustrate a point, at 10th level I would say the caster level would be 10 and at 9th it would be 9.  If there was a Savage Species progression for the Monster of Legend, there would be no difference in how it was handled.


----------



## Morand (May 22, 2006)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> Well so far we have 6 completed characters so all we're waiting on is Ferrix, I'll give Ferrix two days to post a character, otherwise we'll begin without him.
> 
> Question:
> Troile can't be a pink half-dragon, so please choose an appropriately coloured dragon, also can you please explain how you have worked out your combat modifiers for your weapon, as I'm scratching my head as to how you get +25 to hit with your Elvin Court Blade.  Also what is melee weapon mastery
> ...




I would like ferrix's spot if he doesn't take it


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## gabrion (May 22, 2006)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> This is a poor design meant to illustrate a point, at 10th level I would say the caster level would be 10 and at 9th it would be 9.  If there was a Savage Species progression for the Monster of Legend, there would be no difference in how it was handled.




I don't think it works that way.  Both wizard and loremaster are adding 1 level to the wizard casting for the character, so they wouldn't stack.  The charact would get the better of the two and since both advance their casting by one level, they'd be an 8th level caster at 10th level.


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (May 22, 2006)

Morand said:
			
		

> I would like ferrix's spot if he doesn't take it



If you can complete a 10th level Gestalt character within 2 days you can have spot number 8


----------



## Wrahn (May 22, 2006)

gabrion said:
			
		

> I don't think it works that way.  Both wizard and loremaster are adding 1 level to the wizard casting for the character, so they wouldn't stack.  The charact would get the better of the two and since both advance their casting by one level, they'd be an 8th level caster at 10th level.




It is an interesting point and one I hadn't considered, but I would argue the Wizard class does not give +1 caster level.  The level of the wizard level determines what spells are available and what level they are cast at, but is fundamentally different than the +1 to existing caster level.

The inference is easy to make, but the Wizard (or any of the base casting classes) act slightly different, they permit the casting of spells of that class.  For instance, in the example I gave, you could not pick up cleric levels with the loremaster class, because the fighter/rogue/wizard doesn't have levels to add to.

Whether the distinction is enough to seperate them as distinct abilities is probably up to the GM.


----------



## Question (May 22, 2006)

I put down greater weapon focus as greater weapon spec, fixed.

Pink half dragon = gold, for all intents and purposes.

Melee weapon mastery is from PHB II and gives +2 to hit/+2 to damage.

Minor calculation error, i think i have a +24 to hit.


----------



## Ferrix (May 23, 2006)

If no one noticed I posted an absent thread in the Talking the Talk forum.  I was away for four days at a competition.

I'll be posting my character today.


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## gabrion (May 23, 2006)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> It is an interesting point and one I hadn't considered, but I would argue the Wizard class does not give +1 caster level.  The level of the wizard level determines what spells are available and what level they are cast at, but is fundamentally different than the +1 to existing caster level.
> 
> The inference is easy to make, but the Wizard (or any of the base casting classes) act slightly different, they permit the casting of spells of that class.  For instance, in the example I gave, you could not pick up cleric levels with the loremaster class, because the fighter/rogue/wizard doesn't have levels to add to.
> 
> Whether the distinction is enough to seperate them as distinct abilities is probably up to the GM.




Well you're right to say that advancing wizard levels and advancing loremaster levels wouldn't be exactly the same thing, but the important part here is gaining spellcasting abilities.  The PrC says:



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> When a new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class.




Replace "a spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class" with "wizard," and it seems like a problem would crop up because of the following lines from the wizard class:



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Wizard.




...and...



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook.




So taking a level of wizard and a level of loremaster at the same time in a gestalt build really is like taking wizard/wizard for the purposes of spells/day and spells known.  As far as I can tell, this wouldn't work.

However, you're right to point out that it's up to the DM's ruling.  I know he's been a bit lenient with me in regards to my character for this game, so maybe you'll have some luck too.


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## Question (May 23, 2006)

Btw i thought we were supposed to start last week? Or something like that?


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## Wrahn (May 23, 2006)

Okay, Gabrion, good argument.

I don't think it is a problem still, as the +cleric levels of the Monster of Legend do not need to overlap with the the cleric level Ununkua'em actually took (if we look at it like a Savage Species-like progression) and I believe that Lord Raven has approved him.

Anyway, as far as a nickname for him goes, I think I will let you guys decide what you want to call him (in character after you meet him).  If any of you have read the descriptive text in the War Mind in the actual book, it describes a warrior named Ununquam the Vanquisher who lived many thousands of years ago, whose stories are told in the Talariic text (which all war minds learn from). The name Ununkua'em was constructed using the Goliath name generator, specifically to sound as close to Ununquam as I could get it.


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## Amazing Triangle (May 24, 2006)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> Amazing Triangle:
> I know nothing about the combat medic or the healer, can you please summarise the abilities of each class please.




Well what you see is what you get for Combat Medic it is 5 levels.  Healer is Cleric without domains focused on healing completely.  There is only Cleanse Petrification (13th-self explainatory), New limb (15th-Regrow limb 1/day ), and New Life (20th - 1/week true res materials still needed) are all that is left

Very short list of spells mostly healing or status spells

I have to heal any good aligned creature or lose casting privledges, Heavy or medium shuts down my healing powers so does a shield for 24 hours.


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## Ferrix (May 24, 2006)

Question, I recalled Lord_Raven saying no custom magic items, thus the Sacred Ring your character has is out.

Didn't we have an arcane caster?  I don't see one in the Rogues Gallery.


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## Scotley (May 24, 2006)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Didn't we have an arcane caster?  I don't see one in the Rogues Gallery.




Shayuri's character is I believe an arcane caster using classes from Player's Handbook two. My character has some arcane spells as Bard, but I do seem to remember a couple of sorcerer/wizard types being suggested early on. I don't know where they went.


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## Ferrix (May 24, 2006)

True Shayuri's beguiler/duskblade is sort of a caster, but not full on.

Seems we have a lot of divine casting and little arcane...


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## Scotley (May 24, 2006)

Yeah, an evoker would round the group out nicely. My character can deal some pretty good ranged damage, but not the area effect stuff.


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## Shayuri (May 24, 2006)

I am arcane, yes...but it's also true that I'm not a "blasty mage." What little damage spells I have are from Duskblade, and are limited to a few ray spells. Beguiler offers very little damage dealing, though can do crowd control via enchantments and illusions that control or incapacitate foes.

Definitely room for a "Boom Mage," though. Beguilers are also weak in "planar" magic, like summons, dissmissals, and travel spells...and even duskblades never get anything better than Dimension Door. So there's PLENTY of room for another arcane caster.


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## Ferrix (May 24, 2006)

So here's my plan so far:

Race: Sylph (MMII)
Side 1: Outsider 3/LA 5/Ambient Tempest 2
Side 2: ??

I'm pondering whether to go full-on Wizard in Side 2 for versatility with a sprinkling of geomancer, a base of Wizard with Spellfire Wielder on top, favored soul or druid.


----------



## Wrahn (May 24, 2006)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> So here's my plan so far:
> 
> Race: Sylph (MMII)
> Side 1: Outsider 3/LA 5/Ambient Tempest 2
> ...




Remember you can't have a prestige class on both sides on the same level.  Not sure what the ambient tempest is, but it sure sounds like a prestige class.

Also I think it is fair to warn Lord Raven that the Sylph cast spells as a sorcerer and the level of the sorcerer = Hit Dice +4 or in this case 14th level.


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## Ferrix (May 24, 2006)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Remember you can't have a prestige class on both sides on the same level.  Not sure what the ambient tempest is, but it sure sounds like a prestige class.
> 
> Also I think it is fair to warn Lord Raven that the Sylph cast spells as a sorcerer and the level of the sorcerer = Hit Dice +4 or in this case 14th level.




Yes I know Wrahn, I've already pointed the PrC restriction once in this thread, or its prior incarnation to someone else.

Ambient Tempest is from Dragonlance Bestiary of Krynn.  Basically the key ability it has is Shifting Knowledge, which lets a sorcerer switch out one spell on a weekly basis (rather than having to wait to level up).

Not that the Monster of Legend template is much better than the Sylph, but if he accepted that, we'll see.


----------



## Wrahn (May 24, 2006)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Yes I know Wrahn, I've already pointed the PrC restriction once in this thread, or its prior incarnation to someone else.
> 
> Ambient Tempest is from Dragonlance Bestiary of Krynn.  Basically the key ability it has is Shifting Knowledge, which lets a sorcerer switch out one spell on a weekly basis (rather than having to wait to level up).
> 
> Not that the Monster of Legend template is much better than the Sylph, but if he accepted that, we'll see.




No condemnation, I was just pointing out what he would see on your character sheet anyway and perhaps saving you a little creation time if he says no.  I laughed when I read the sylph.  You sir, have a talent for finding loopholes.


----------



## Ferrix (May 24, 2006)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> You sir, have a talent for finding loopholes.




I think that's a compliment that I'll cherish forever, and put in my sig


----------



## Amazing Triangle (May 24, 2006)

Well if I were not the heal stick I could have been the Boom Stick.  Geez that is bad...

Casters as rechargeable wands...but no one in this group is a warforged or something else that Cure (type) Wounds would not work on.  And how many in the Party have Fast Heal 2 or greater.  And if anyone has suggestions on healing spells of the Cleric persuasion I am open to adding new spells if I can.  The build is to heal others not really inflict harm just keep my side going until we win.


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## Lord_Raven88 (May 24, 2006)

Well I'm back after caring for my poor sick family, so I'll endeavour to get the IC post up and running today, I've been reading over the post and it seems I need to clarify a few things;

Wrahn:
Firstly you Cleric caster levels and your Cleric caster levels from Monster of Legend don't stack if taken at the same time.

So at most your cleric caster level will 8th

1: Cleric/Goliath LA 1
2: Cleric/Phrenic LA 1
3: Cleric/Phrenic LA 2
4: Cleric/Monster of Legend LA 1 (Cleric)
5: Cleric/Monster of Legend LA 2 (Cleric)
6: War Mind/Monster of Legend LA 3 
7: War Mind/Monster of Legend LA 4 (Cleric)
8: War Mind/Monster of Legend LA 5 
9: War Mind/Monster of Legend LA 6 (Cleric)
10: War Mind/Monster of Legend LA 7 (Cleric)

Ferrix:
I'll need to see your completed character sheet before I can determine how to deal with the Sylph's Sorcerer caster levels, obviously allowing a 10th level character to cast spells as a 14th level character is a no no, but I need more details before I can rule on it properly.



Also I realise that Question is chomping at the bit to get started, however I'm going away early tomorrow for a long weekend so I won't be able to post for 4 days, which isn't really a problem as I don't post usually during the weekends anyway, so we have two choices before us.

1) I can start the IC thread, which will allow everyone bar Ferrix to do a bit of research and RP, and then pick the game up from Tuesday when I return, or 2) we wait until Tuesday and start with Ferrix.


----------



## Amazing Triangle (May 25, 2006)

Is Morand still in this LR?

I vote start and let us RP for a bit. That way we can all get to know each other better.


----------



## Shayuri (May 25, 2006)

I concur with the triangle man up there. RP is gud. Start soon is gud.


----------



## Question (May 25, 2006)

If past history is any indication the introductions WONT be finished even when you get back....


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (May 25, 2006)

The IC thread is up and running, feel free to make stuff up regarding your homelands, history, as things are pretty sketchy that far back in Torils history.

Have fun.


----------



## Wrahn (May 25, 2006)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> Wrahn:
> Firstly you Cleric caster levels and your Cleric caster levels from Monster of Legend don't stack if taken at the same time.
> 
> So at most your cleric caster level will 8th
> ...




I modified my character considering that ruling to:

1: Cleric/Goliath LA 1
2: Cleric/Phrenic LA 1
3: Cleric/Phrenic LA 2
4: Ranger/Monster of Legend LA 1 (Cleric)
5: Ranger/Monster of Legend LA 2 (Cleric)
6: War Mind/Monster of Legend LA 3 
7: War Mind/Monster of Legend LA 4 (Cleric)
8: War Mind/Monster of Legend LA 5 
9: War Mind/Monster of Legend LA 6 (Cleric)
10: War Mind/Monster of Legend LA 7 (Cleric)

Assuming that is okay...


----------



## Question (May 25, 2006)

I only see 3 cleric levels in there....where are you getting 8th level casting from?


----------



## Wrahn (May 25, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> I only see 3 cleric levels in there....where are you getting 8th level casting from?




look on the otherside:

1: Cleric/Goliath LA 1
2: Cleric/Phrenic LA 1
3: Cleric/Phrenic LA 2
4: Ranger/Monster of Legend LA 1 *(Cleric)*
5: Ranger/Monster of Legend LA 2 *(Cleric)*
6: War Mind/Monster of Legend LA 3 
7: War Mind/Monster of Legend LA 4 *(Cleric)*
8: War Mind/Monster of Legend LA 5 
9: War Mind/Monster of Legend LA 6 *(Cleric)*
10: War Mind/Monster of Legend LA 7 *(Cleric)*


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## Thanee (May 25, 2006)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> I laughed when I read the sylph.  You sir, have a talent for finding loopholes.




Heh. It's certainly a good example why having LA take up one side of a Gestalt is a Really Bad Idea™. 

BTW, where did you find the LA for the Sylph?

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Wrahn (May 25, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Heh. It's certainly a good example why having LA take up one side of a Gestalt is a Really Bad Idea™.
> 
> BTW, where did you find the LA for the Sylph?
> 
> ...




It is from the D&D 3.5 update booklet, same place the Monster of Legend level adjust is from.

It can be found here.


----------



## Question (May 25, 2006)

I dont understand the part where you put "cleric" in the brackets.


----------



## Wrahn (May 25, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> I dont understand the part where you put "cleric" in the brackets.




That was Lord Raven's doing, he has assigned + Cleric levels to particular levels of the template, similar to how savage species has leveled level adjusts


----------



## Thanee (May 25, 2006)

Thanks, Wrahn! 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Ferrix (May 25, 2006)

Heheh...


----------



## Ferrix (May 25, 2006)

Guess my loophole isn't as free as I figured, oh well.

The Sylph is no longer as appetizing without that loophole, however, maybe we could knock down that LA since the reason it's so high is to cover the HD +4 sorcerer casting, without that it's not nearly worth as much of a LA.

I'm still interested in the character however.  Lord_Raven, what do you say?


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (May 25, 2006)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Guess my loophole isn't as free as I figured, oh well.
> 
> The Sylph is no longer as appetizing without that loophole, however, maybe we could knock down that LA since the reason it's so high is to cover the HD +4 sorcerer casting, without that it's not nearly worth as much of a LA.
> 
> I'm still interested in the character however.  Lord_Raven, what do you say?



Create the bare bones of your desired character, if as you say the LA is there to partially counteract the bonus sorc levels, then I'm sure we can come to some accomodation.


----------



## Question (May 26, 2006)

Errr i still dont understand the part about assigning cleric levels to the template. Are you saying you basically get free cleric levels along with the template?


----------



## Amazing Triangle (May 26, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> Errr i still dont understand the part about assigning cleric levels to the template. Are you saying you basically get free cleric levels along with the template?




Normally the template gives you cleric levels the whole time.  LR is making it more balanced.


----------



## Question (May 26, 2006)

Monster of legend gives you full cleric levels???

Holy crap thats imba. Thats like a LA 0. You dont lose anything.


----------



## Amazing Triangle (May 26, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> Monster of legend gives you full cleric levels???
> 
> Holy crap thats imba. Thats like a LA 0. You dont lose anything.




Actually it is +7 LA
I mean losing 7 hit dice but gaining spells is not a fair trade.


----------



## Question (May 26, 2006)

I thought you said that you get full cleric levels, as in with BAB, etc?


----------



## Amazing Triangle (May 26, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> I thought you said that you get full cleric levels, as in with BAB, etc?



No you gain spell casting as though you had gained a cleric level.


----------



## Question (May 26, 2006)

Still worth it, especially when you consider the 2 special effects you choose cant really be duplicated anywhere else, etc, etc.......

Btw my intro post will be delayed a bit while i check out some new material.


----------



## Question (May 27, 2006)

Okay im ready to post, but im not sure on the geographical locations. Anyone got a map? I cant seem to find one of the time frame. Or can we just make up stuff?


----------



## Wrahn (May 27, 2006)

Imaskar is in the far east of the forgotten realms in what now is Raurin the dust desert and the lands of purple dust.  An online map of the "present day" forgotten realms can be found here.

More background (unofficial though) can be found here.


----------



## Ferrix (May 28, 2006)

Here's a skeleton of the sylph sorcerer, unmodified, so it has full casting.

[sblock]*Name*
_Chaotic Good Sylph
Outsider 3/LA 5/Ambient Tempest 2 – Wizard 5/Wild Mage 1/Geometer 2/Wizard 2_

*Age:* 
*Gender:* 
*Height:* 
*Weight:* 
*Eyes:* 
*Hair:* 
*Skin:* 

*STR:* 10 [--] (4 points, -2 race)
*DEX:* 16 [+3] (6 points, +2 race)
*CON:* 12 [+1] (6 points, -2 race)
*INT:* 20 [+5] (10 points, +4 race)
*WIS:* 18 [+4] (4 points, +6 race)
*CHA:* 30 [+10] (10 points, +6 race, +2 level, +6 enh)

*Hit Dice:* 3d8 + 7d4 + Cha + Conx9
*HP:* XX
*Armor Class:* 10 (10 base + X Dex + X Armor + 1 Size)
*Initiative:* +X
*BAB:* +6
- *Melee:* +7
- *Ranged:* +10

*Speed:* 30’, Flight 90’ (good)

*FORT:* +X (X Base + X Con)
*REFL:* +X (X Base + X Dex)
*WILL:* +X (X Base + X Wis)

*Abilities:*
- _Outsider type_
- _Improved Invisibility (at will)_
- _Spell Resistance 14_
- _Summon Elemental (as per Summon Monster VI, CL 12)_
- _Cast Spells as a Sorcerer, Caster Level = HD + 4_
- _Wild Empathy_
- _Scribe Scroll_
- _Bonus Feat_
- _Familiar_
- _Wild Magic_
- _Draw Spellglyph_
- _Glyph of Warding_
- _Book of Geometry_
- _Shifting Knowledge_
- _Ambient Secret: Improved Shifting_

*Feats:*
1st Level
- _Magical Aptitude_
- _Scribe Scroll_
- _Mind over Body_
3rd Level
- _Extend Spell_
5th Level
- _Empower Spell_
6th Level
- _Persistent Spell_
9th Level
- _Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard)_

*Skills:* 
Use Magic Device +XX (X ranks, +X Att)
Concentration +XX (X ranks, +X Att)
Spellcraft +XX (X ranks, +X Att)
Knowledge (arcana) +XX (X ranks, +X Att)
Knowledge (the planes) +XX (X ranks, +X Att)
Decipher Script +XX (X ranks, +X Att)
Search +XX (X ranks, +X Att)
Disable Device +XX (X ranks, +X Att)
Skill +XX (X ranks, +X Att)
Skill +XX (X ranks, +X Att)
Skill +XX (X ranks, +X Att)
Skill +XX (X ranks, +X Att)
Skill +XX (X ranks, +X Att)


*Languages:*
- _Common, Auran, X, X, X, X, X_

*Sorcerer Spellcasting:*
*Caster Level:* X
*Save DC:* 10 + 10 Cha + Level
*Spells Known or Available:*
*Oth level –* _(6/day)_ 9
*1st level –* _(9/day)_ Benign Transposition, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Enlarge Person, Bigby’s Tripping Hand
*2nd level –* _(9/day)_ Scorching Ray, Scale Weakening, Blur, Glitterdust, Kelgore’s Grave mist
*3rd level –* _(8/day)_ Crown of the Grave, Haste, Arcane Sight, Acid Breath
*4th level –* _(8/day)_ Enervation, Orb of Force, Black Tentacles, Celerity
*5th level –* _(8/day)_ Hold Monster, Draconic Polymorph, Sonic Rumble
*6th level –* _(7/day)_ Subvert Planar Essence, Greater Dispel Magic
*7th level –* _(4/day)_ Solipsism

*Wizard Spellcasting:*
*Caster Level:* X
*Save DC:* 10 + 5 Int + Level
*Spellbook:*
*Oth level –* 
*1st level –* 
*2nd level –* 
*3rd level –* 
*4th level –* 
*5th level –* 


*Equipment:*
*Armor & Shield*
-*Name* Armor (+X AC, Max Dex #, ACP –X, X% ASF) _Description_ (gp, lb)
-*Name* Shield (+X AC, Max Dex #, ACP –X, X% ASF) _Description_ (gp, lb)

*Melee weapons*
-*Name* Weapon +X (XdX+X, 20/x2) _Description_ (gp, lb)

*Ranged weapons*
-*Name* Weapon +X (XdX+X, 20/x2, ft.) _Description_ (gp, lb)

*Miscellaneous Magical or Psionic Items*
-Name (gp, lb)

*Potions or Psionic Tattoos*
-Type (gp)

*Wands, Staffs or Dorjes*
-Type (XX/50chg) (gp, 1oz)

*Scrolls or Power Stones*
-Type (gp)

*Mundane equipment*
-Adventurer’s Outfit (gp, -lb)

Weight Carried: lb
Remaining money: gp

*Description*

*Personality*

*Background*[/sblock]


----------



## Question (May 28, 2006)

Yea but i thoguht we needed a map of the "old" FR as the nations and other landmarks are widely different.


----------



## Wrahn (May 28, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> Yea but i thoguht we needed a map of the "old" FR as the nations and other landmarks are widely different.




They are, but mountain ranges are going to be there, coastlines will have changed some, but should still be recognizable, there are less wastelands (mostly because the empires haven't blown up yet).  There are elven lands established already (For a time line chronology look here it won't answer all your questions but it is a place to start.)


----------



## Ferrix (May 29, 2006)

Lord_raven I posted the barebones above for you to look over.


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (May 30, 2006)

Let me clarify what you're doing in Inupras, so for you have all been sent a dream of what is going to happen very soon, but as of yet you don't know the location of where the metal and stone sculpture actually is, your dieties haven't given you the exact location of this terrible device, but you have been sent to a city which can provide the answers to your questions.

Also Amazing Triangle:
From your IC post, I think you might have missed the sblocked info for divine spellcasters.

Ferrix:
Regarding your character I'm going to rule that your sorcerer spellcasting ability is tied to your Sylph Outsider Hit Dice & LA, so that would make your Sylph a 7th level Sorcerer (3 HD + 4 Sorc levels), so you could improve the Sorcerer spellcasting levels by either advancing the outsider hit dice or by taking Sorcerer levels  at either 1st, 9th or 10 level.

Sylph
1   Wizard / Sylph HD
2   Wizard / Sylph HD (Sorcerer)
3   Wizard / Sylph HD (Sorcerer)
4   Wizard / Sylph LA +1 (Sorcerer)
5   Wizard / Sylph LA +2 (Sorcerer)
6   Wild Mage / Sylph LA +3 (Sorcerer)
7   Geometer / Sylph LA +4 (Sorcerer)
8   Geometer / Sylph LA +5 (Sorcerer)
9   Wizard / Ambient Tempest
10 Wizard / Ambient Tempest


----------



## Ferrix (May 30, 2006)

Well, I'll abandon the Sylph than, easy enough to get full spellcasting otherwise that I don't want to have to sacrifice caster level especially sorcerer side since they only get new spell levels at odds.  Not really worth it if it isn't tied to general HD (even if its capped at caster level = total HD), considering I've other ideas for a character that I've been fiddling with while waiting for your response.


----------



## Amazing Triangle (May 30, 2006)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> Also Amazing Triangle:
> From your IC post, I think you might have missed the sblocked info for divine spellcasters.




I read it.  I got some of it.  She on the other hand is a ditz.  So her not knowing is completely possible.


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (May 30, 2006)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Well, I'll abandon the Sylph than, easy enough to get full spellcasting otherwise that I don't want to have to sacrifice caster level especially sorcerer side since they only get new spell levels at odds.  Not really worth it if it isn't tied to general HD (even if its capped at caster level = total HD), considering I've other ideas for a character that I've been fiddling with while waiting for your response.



That's fine, I suggest that everyone else starts planning what you're all going to do next, I can alway intorduce Ferrix's character at a latter date.


----------



## Ferrix (May 30, 2006)

Trying to figure out what the best support caster would be.

Archivist/Wizard?
Wizard/Cleric?

Wizard 5/War Weaver 5/Archivist 10?

Any suggestions?

I was going to make a power-house spellcaster (massive intelligence, high DC's, etc.), but figured for a change I'd make a character whose focus was on bringing others into the forefront with his spells and effects.


----------



## Shayuri (May 31, 2006)

For straight up POWAH it's hard to beat Cleric/Wizard, though it does mean having two separate spellcasting stats...which can be an expensive habit to support. Still, the temptation of all those spells. And you could be a Cleric of Mystryl...the original goddess of magic from before that Netherese archmage whacked her.

If you go this road, consider the Cloistered Cleric variant...it might merge with Wizard with less hassle (neither can wear armor, etc...).

I haven't got Heroes of Horror, so the archivist is a closed book (hah!) to me.

You could also consider a mage/druid combo...though I think it'd be harder to pull off.


----------



## Wrahn (May 31, 2006)

Well, I am not sure if the Geomancer falls under the catagory of a dual caster and thus banned by Gestalt rules (it is meant to facilitate dual casting, though it doesn't have dual caster progression) you could be a Cleric 10//Wizard 3/Geomance 7 and be a full 10/10 caster.


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (Jun 4, 2006)

It's a public holiday here in NZ, so I won't update the IC thread until tomorrow.


----------



## Ferrix (Jun 6, 2006)

Lord_Raven, did we have any XP above minimum for our level to spend on item creation or not?

Just checking.

My Sun Elf Wizard 5/War Weaver 5 - Archivist 10 is 90% done.


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (Jun 6, 2006)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Lord_Raven, did we have any XP above minimum for our level to spend on item creation or not?
> 
> Just checking.
> 
> My Sun Elf Wizard 5/War Weaver 5 - Archivist 10 is 90% done.



That's great Ferrix  , I understand that you've been sooo busy completing characters for other games that you just haven't the time to complete your character for my simple little game.    

Well I've finally updated the IC thread with the results of your research, let me know what you plan to do next.


----------



## Ferrix (Jun 6, 2006)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> That's great Ferrix  , I understand that you've been sooo busy completing characters for other games that you just haven't the time to complete your character for my simple little game.
> 
> Well I've finally updated the IC thread with the results of your research, let me know what you plan to do next.




Spell selection was quite tedious.


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## Scotley (Jun 8, 2006)

I will be traveling for vacation for the next week and unable to post. Please npc my character as needed.


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## Wrahn (Jun 8, 2006)

Scotley said:
			
		

> I will be traveling for vacation for the next week and unable to post. Please npc my character as needed.




Have a good time on your vacation.


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## Lord_Raven88 (Jun 13, 2006)

We seem to be losing impetus for this adventure, well in the hope of encouraging you all you've pretty much learn't everything that you could possibly learn about Deadgates as well as the probably location, now you're faced with two choices you can choose to travel directly to Jarl Gnorgrak fortress, or you can go to the nearby town of Solon where it is rumoured that they've been recently attacked by four head-hunting dwarves.

Since the Jarls fortress is 200 miles away, and Solon in about 70 miles away from the fortress (through trackless mountains passes) you'll probably need to utilise magic of sort to speed your journey, also Silvanyck was given enough detailed information to enable you to find the fortress relatively easily.


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## Shayuri (Jun 13, 2006)

I don't think we're done investigating yet...I just need to reconnect to the others. Ilshana didn't learn about Deadgates, the others didn't learn about Orcus...so we need to compare notes before we continue investigating. Ideally, these clues will give us ideas on how to proceed.

So far, there hasn't been much concrete evidence linking any of this to frost giants...we shall see though!


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## Lord_Raven88 (Jun 16, 2006)

Well I really hope that the rest of the players haven't lost interest in this game, most of them have checked into ENWorld in the last few days, but haven't posted in the IC thread.  

If there is still no reply in a weeks time, then I'll cancel this game


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## Ferrix (Jun 16, 2006)

Lord_Raven, quick question.

Are you still interested in my character coming in?

If so, how do you deal with paying for spell selection & scribing.  Some people do it differently, some handwave the costs and such away so long as people purchase a Blessed Book, some account for every spell (page length, etc.), how do you want to do it?  It's a ton of book keeping on my part.

I could easily come in as magical support to help them travel, I haven't kept up with the IC thread though.


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## Scotley (Jun 16, 2006)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Have a good time on your vacation.




I did thanks. I am back and very keen to continue the game. I hope the others feel the same. I'll catch up on the in-character thread and get a post up today.


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## Wrahn (Jun 16, 2006)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> Well I really hope that the rest of the players haven't lost interest in this game, most of them have checked into ENWorld in the last few days, but haven't posted in the IC thread.
> 
> If there is still no reply in a weeks time, then I'll cancel this game




I am still here (and posting even)


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## Lord_Raven88 (Jun 19, 2006)

We'll it's nice to see that there are three dedicated posters for this game, thanks guys you're    also I thought I'd move the game along a bit, so that you're aware that you're working to a deadline 

Ferrix: If you have a character concept that you can submit quickly, then you're welcome to join. Regarding the spell selections you don't have to pay for scribing the spells but you still need to pay for any scrolls you buy.


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## Scotley (Jun 19, 2006)

Thanks for correcting my error re: dwarven wizard warriors.


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## Ferrix (Jun 19, 2006)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> We'll it's nice to see that there are three dedicated posters for this game, thanks guys you're    also I thought I'd move the game along a bit, so that you're aware that you're working to a deadline
> 
> Ferrix: If you have a character concept that you can submit quickly, then you're welcome to join. Regarding the spell selections you don't have to pay for scribing the spells but you still need to pay for any scrolls you buy.






			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll
> 
> A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
> 
> ...




I was going with this.


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## Amazing Triangle (Jun 19, 2006)

Sorry LR Things happened so fast that I lost where my character was in all this...So I am trying to figure out what is going on...


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## Lord_Raven88 (Jun 19, 2006)

Amazing Triangle said:
			
		

> Sorry LR Things happened so fast that I lost where my character was in all this...So I am trying to figure out what is going on...



Not to worry and welcome back 

Ferrix: I'm happy enough for you to use that pricing, to copy spells into your spellbook.


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## Voidrazor (Jun 21, 2006)

*One More?*

LR, I know you've already started, but is there any chance you could take on one more player?
If so, I'd like to play a druidic character.

Here's what I have so far:

Name: Vhandamere
Race: Anthropomorphic Bat Saint

Druid 1/(Saint)  Greenbound Summoning, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Flaw:Shaky
Druid 2/(Saint)
Druid 3/cleric 1 Divine Metamagicersistent Spell
Druid 4/Monk 1
Druid 5/Fighter 1
Druid6/Warshaper 1 Natural Spell
Druid7/Warshaper 2
Druid8/Warshaper 3
Druid 9/Barbarian 1 Snow Tiger Berserker
Druid 10/Warshaper 4

Please let me know if I can still get in and if my character looks OK so far

EDIT: Oops can't have monk and barbarian in the same build due to alignment restrictions. I'll get rid of one of them if I get in.


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## Lord_Raven88 (Jun 21, 2006)

Voidrazor said:
			
		

> LR, I know you've already started, but is there any chance you could take on one more player?
> If so, I'd like to play a druidic character.
> 
> Here's what I have so far:
> ...



Since Gabrion is away for a while and question is no longer posting I'm open to your suggestion. 

Also since it's currently Thursday for me and I don't update any games I DM over the weekend, you have approx 4 days to create a character for my game. 

Regarding Greenbound Summoning you will need to treat it as a +2 Metamagic Feat, otherwise it's badly broken.


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## Lord_Raven88 (Jun 21, 2006)

Ferrix: I see that you've finished your character, I'll update the IC thread so that the others run across you on there way to see the High Priest of Oghma.


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## Ferrix (Jun 22, 2006)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> Ferrix: I see that you've finished your character, I'll update the IC thread so that the others run across you on there way to see the High Priest of Oghma.




Works with me !  Thanks for the game LR, I always enjoy a good 'venture.


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## Voidrazor (Jun 24, 2006)

Thanks! I'm really looking forward to this. But character creation is going slowly. So many options! Plus I haven't played a druid or a gestalt before. But I think Vhandamere will turn out to be both durable and have a nice array of k00l p0werz


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## Amazing Triangle (Jun 24, 2006)

Don't worry about healing much my character has that covered I am an HP machine so work on an offensive build


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## Question (Jun 24, 2006)

Apologies to all involved, but i feel i need to remove myself from this game......im not sure but i think ive lost interest in this somehow, and i think this is the best solution.....


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## Scotley (Jun 24, 2006)

Hey Question, sorry to see you go. This game was pretty much your idea. I thought something must be up since you weren't posting. Hope you find a game that works for you.


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## Voidrazor (Jun 24, 2006)

Amazing Triangle said:
			
		

> Don't worry about healing much my character has that covered I am an HP machine so work on an offensive build




Heh, don't worry. He'll definitely be offensive. Or maybe *do* worry....


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## Lord_Raven88 (Jun 24, 2006)

Voidrazor said:
			
		

> Heh, don't worry. He'll definitely be offensive. Or maybe *do* worry....



How soon will you have your character sheet done?


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## Voidrazor (Jun 25, 2006)

I should be able to finish him tomorrow


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## Voidrazor (Jun 25, 2006)

Name: Vhandamere





Desc: In his natural form Vhandamere stands just over 2 feet tall. While his face is wrinkled with age and his fur graying, he still manages to be heartwrenchingly cute. He exudes a warmth and serenity, not to mention a visible celestial glow, that tends to put people at ease. And while his voice is high pitched, its tones are melodious.


Race: Middle-Aged Anthropomorphic Divine Minion Bat Saint
Alignment: Neutral Good

Str	4	base 8 cost 0 (Bat -4, Middle Aged -1)
Dex 	8	base 8 cost 0 (Middle Aged -1)
Con 	18	base 16 cost 10 (Saint +2, Middle Aged -1, Levels +1)
Int 	10	base 9 cost 1 (Middle Aged +1)
Wis	28	base 18 cost 16 (Bat +6, Saint +2, Middle Aged +1, Levels +1)
Cha	22	base 17 cost 13 (Bat -2, Saint +4, Vow of Poverty +2, Middle Aged +1)                       

Hit Points: 88
AC 36 (base 10 Dex -1 Insight [Saint] +9 untyped [Ninja] +9, Armor [Vow] +7, Deflection +1 Natural +1 Size +1 Flaw -1) Touch 19, Flat 36
Init -1 
BAB +9/+4, Grap +1
Speed  5 Land 20 Air 
Fort +16 (classes +11 con +4 Vow +1)
Ref +9 (classes +9 Dex -1 Vow +1)
Will +20 (classes +8 Wis +9 Vow +1 Ninja +2) 
Additional +1 on all saves vs.spells and spell-like abilities, +2 vs paralysis hold or entange

Druid 1/(Saint) - Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Alertness, Endurance, Flaw:Murky-Eyed, Flaw:Vulnerable
Druid 2/(Saint) – Nymph's Kiss (Exalted bonus feat)
Druid 3/(Divine Minion) – Eschew Materials
Druid 4/Master of Many Forms 1 - Intuitive Attack (Exalted bonus feat)
Druid 5/ Master of Many Forms 2
Druid6/ Master of Many Forms  3 – Natural Spell, Nimbus of Light (Exalted bonus feat)
Druid7/ Master of Many Forms 4
Druid8/ Master of Many Forms 5 – Touch of Golden Ice (Exalted bonus feat)
Druid 9/ Master of Many Forms 6 – Assume Supernatural Ability:Eye Rays
Druid 10/ Ninja 1 – Lliira's Blessing (Exalted bonus feat)

Concentration (Con) 17 ranks 13
Craft (Int)
Diplomacy (Cha) 9 ranks 3 (11 total on Wild Empathy, synergy)
Disguise (Cha) 7 ranks 1
Handle Animal (Cha) 11 ranks 5
Heal (Wis)
Hide (Dex) 6 ranks 7
Knowledge (nature) (Int) 12 ranks 10 (druid +2)
Listen (Wis) 22 ranks 11 (alertness +2) (26 total with Blindsense)
Profession (Wis)
Ride (Dex)
Spellcraft (Int)
Spot (Wis) 24 ranks 13 (alertness +2) (26 total with Blindsense)
Survival (Wis) 11 ranks 0 (Druid +2)
Swim (Str)

Special Abilities:

Bat Inherited characteristics
Blindsense - A bat notices and locates creatures within 20 feet. Opponents still have 100% concealment against a creature with blindsense. 
Skills - A bat has a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks. These bonuses are lost if its blindsense is negated. 


Saint
Tongues, always on.
Gain an Insight bonus to AC equal to the Saint’s Wisdom modifier (+9)
Holy Touch – the Saint’s melee attacks do +1d6 Holy damage vs. Evil creatures (or +1d8 vs. Evil Undead or Evil Outsiders). Any Evil creature that attacks the Saint with a Natural Attack takes the same amount of damage.
Able to cast Guidance, Resistance, Virtue, and Bless at will at Character level.(10th)
Gain Fast Healing (5).
Protective Aura – 20’ radius nimbus of light that can be activated as a Free Action. Acts as a double strength Magic Circle against Evil and a Less Globe of Invulnerability.
HD Damage Reduction 5 / evil

Mulhorandi Divine Minion of Isis
Fast Wild Shape -  Wild shape as an 11th-level druid into a hawk. The divine minion can use this ability at will, can change form as a free action, and can spend time in animal form indefinitely. Unlike a druid, minions can use this ability even if they're wearing metal armor. 
Fear Immunity - Divine minions are immune to fear effects. 

Druid
Animal Companion (see below)
Nature Sense  +2 bonus on Knowledge (nature) and Survival checks. 
Wild Empathy - improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person. The druid rolls 1d20 and adds her druid level and her Charisma modifier to determine the wild empathy check result. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly. To use wild empathy, the druid and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time. A druid can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but she takes a -4 penalty on the check. 
Woodland Stride - Starting at 2nd level, a druid may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at her normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion still affect her. 
Trackless Step - Starting at 3rd level, a druid leaves no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked. She may choose to leave a trail if so desired. 
Resist Nature’s Lure +4 bonus on saving throws against the spell-like abilities of fey. 
Wild Shape - Turn into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Each time you use wild shape, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night. Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet. The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with. The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level. 
Venom Immunity - Immunity to all poisons. 
Master of Many Forms
Shifter Speech – You may speak verbally regardless of the form you take. You may also communicate with other creatures of the same kind while in a Wild
Shape.
Improved Wild Shape (Humanoid, Giant, Monstrous Humanoid, Fey, Vermin, Aberration) – You may now use Wild Shape to take the form of a Humanoid, Giant, Monstrous Humanoid, Fey, Vermin, or Aberration whose base hit dice are not greater than your hit dice.
Improved Wild Shape (Large, Huge, Tiny) – Your Wild Shapes may now be up to Huge-sized or as small as Tiny-sized.

Ninja
Wisdom bonus to AC (+9). This bonus applies even when Flat-Footed, but not when immobilized, wearing any armor, using a shield, or when carrying a Medium (or heavier) load.
+2 bonus on Will saves, not while wearing any armor, using a shield, or when carrying a Medium (or heavier) load.
Sudden Strike +1d6 – When attacking a creature vulnerable to Sneak Attack who is denied his/her Dexterity bonus to AC. May not be used to do non-lethal damage. May be used with a Melee weapon or a Ranged weapon within 30’. 
Note: The main difference from Sneak Attack is that it does not applied to Flanked foes.
Trapfinding

Vow of Poverty
+7 AC doesn't effect touch attacks, doesn't stack with armor.
Exalted bonus feats at 1st level 2nd level and every 2 levels thereafter.
Endure Elements – no need for fortitude saves between -50 and 140 degrees.
+2 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls, good typed.
Sustenance – Doesn't need to eat or drink.
+1 Deflection bonus to AC
+1 Resistance bonus to all saving throws
+2 to a single ability score
+1 Natural Armor bonus
Mind Shielding - Immune to Detect Thoughts, Discern Lies, and any attempt to discern alignment
Damage Reduction – DR 5/evil


Animal Companion
Hopzeru, Fleshraker Dinosaur
M Animal HD 8d8+16 Init +6 Speed 50' AC 25 touch 15 flat 20 Base Attack +6 Grap +10 Attack +10 d6+4 Full 2 claws +10 d6+4 1 bite +5 d6+2 and tail +5 d6+2 and poison (cannot use bite and tail at same time) SA leaping pounce – full attack on charge, if hits M or smaller free trip attempt, if successful free grapple attempt. If trip fails opponent can't trip in return, if grapple fails opponent still prone. SA poison DC 14 d6 Dex/d6 Dex con save

Spells 

0  Detect Magic X4, Create Water, Cure Minor Wounds
1st EntangleX2, Obscuring Mist, Omen of Peril (CD,SC), Animate Wood, Wood Wose (CD,SC), Enrage Animal (SC)
2nd Blinding Spittle (PgtF), Gust of Wind, Lesser Restoration, Major Resistance (SS), Embrace the Wild (Cadv), Briar Web (CD,SC)
3rd Lion's Charge X2 (SC), Venomfire (Serpent Kingdoms), Hypothermia X2 (SC)
4th Flame strike, Blast of Sand (Sandstorm), Arc of Lightning (SC), Enhance Wild Shape X2 (SC)
5th Animal Growth, Baleful Polymorph X3

Equipment

loincloth


This build is predicated on a several assumptions that may or may not be the case. If any of the assumptions are incorrect, some adjustments to the build will be necessary (or at least desired).
-The Divine Minion Template (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) can be taken to allow early entrance into the Master of Many Forms PrC. This is potentially cheesy but does incur a +1 LA essentially just for that privilege.
-Assume Supernatural Ability: Eye Rays applies to both Beholders and Beholder-kin OR it can be taken now just for Beholders even though Vhandamere can't yet wildshape into one (one HD shy). EDIT: Neither assumption re Assume Supernatural is likely to be correct. Is the feat even allowed?
- The most recent version of the polymorph rules (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060502a) are being used.
-Though the build overall is admittedly somewhat broken, the character can be kept in check by the roleplaying constraints of exalted status. Vhandamere must always seek peaceful solutions before resorting to violence, can't conveniently walk away when other PCs want to rough a villian up for information etc.


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## Wrahn (Jun 25, 2006)

Voidrazor,

The saint template is like no other, it's description states that is overpowered because it is intended as a reward for good roleplaying, but assuming LR is willing to allow you to take it you still have applied it to your build incorrectly.  According to pg29 of the BoED you need to be at least 6th level before you can take it.

If I were LR (which I am not) I would like a description of the "extraordinary sacrifice" you made that is another requirement of the saint template.


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## Voidrazor (Jun 27, 2006)

If LR okays the Divine Minion template at 1st then moving Saint to levels to 7th and 8th would be no problem. It would result in a bit lower Ref save but no Bab loss   

As for the nature of the sacrifice I have a few ideas. But I'd like to develop them a bit. Right now I'm thinking that it would be something along the lines of having to leave both his homeland and family behind right at the brink of a Mulhorandi civil war. As a Divine Minion V. would be expected to lay down his life, but being a servant of Isis, a deity of marriage and fertility, the loss of family would be particularly egregious.


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## Lord_Raven88 (Jul 5, 2006)

Voidrazor said:
			
		

> If LR okays the Divine Minion template at 1st then moving Saint to levels to 7th and 8th would be no problem. It would result in a bit lower Ref save but no Bab loss
> 
> As for the nature of the sacrifice I have a few ideas. But I'd like to develop them a bit. Right now I'm thinking that it would be something along the lines of having to leave both his homeland and family behind right at the brink of a Mulhorandi civil war. As a Divine Minion V. would be expected to lay down his life, but being a servant of Isis, a deity of marriage and fertility, the loss of family would be particularly egregious.



Voidrazor: Sorry I haven't responded sooner I've been a bit busy recently.

Firstly the Saint Template is incompatable with the Divine Minion template, if you were to take Divine Minion at 1st level your type would change to Outsider, this would then disqualify you for the Saint template, for the same reason you couldn't take the Saint template at 1st level and then Divine Minion template at 2nd level due to the change in type.

Regarding Divine Minion I would allow it as a qualifier to the Master of Many Forms PrC.


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## Voidrazor (Jul 6, 2006)

OK, cool. Is Assume Supernatural Ability from Savage Species allowed? How do you handle known forms for wildshape?


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## Lord_Raven88 (Jul 6, 2006)

Voidrazor said:
			
		

> OK, cool. Is Assume Supernatural Ability from Savage Species allowed? How do you handle known forms for wildshape?



Assume Supernatural ability is fine, regarding Wildshape I'll be using Know(Nature) DC 10 + animals HD to determine wether or not it is a familiar form.  If I consider that the animal is strange or not commonly encountered (i.e. dinosaurs) I'll adjust the DC check accordingly.

To make it easier on both of us I suggest that you come up with a list of common forms, I'll then let you know which one your character is familiar with.


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## Voidrazor (Jul 8, 2006)

OK, here's what I hope will be the final version of Vhandamere. Gah its 4AM!


[sblock]

Desc: In his natural form Vhandamere stands just over 2 feet tall. While his face is wrinkled with age and his fur graying, he still manages to be heartwrenchingly cute. He exudes a warmth and serenity, not to mention a visible celestial glow, that tends to put people at ease. And while his voice is high pitched, its tones are melodious.


Race: Middle-Aged Anthropomorphic Bat Saint
Alignment: Neutral Good

Str 4 base 8 cost 0 (Bat -4, Middle Aged -1)
Dex 8 base 8 cost 0 (Middle Aged -1)
Con 20 base 18 cost 16 (Saint +2, Middle Aged -1, Levels +1)
Int 16 base 15 cost 8 (Middle Aged +1)
Wis 28 base 18 cost 16 (Bat +6, Saint +2, Middle Aged +1, Levels +1)
Cha 13 base 8 cost 0 (Bat -2, Saint +4, Vow of Poverty +2, Middle Aged +1) 

Hit Points: 98
AC 36 (base 10 Dex -1 Insight [Saint] +9 untyped [Ninja] +9, Armor [Vow] +7, Deflection +1 Natural +1 Size +1 Flaw -1) Touch 19, Flat 36
Init +3 
BAB +10/+5, Grap +1
Speed 15 Land 20 Air 
Fort +19 (classes +13 con +5 Vow +1)
Ref +8 (classes +8 Dex -1 Vow +1)
Will +21 (classes +9 Wis +9 Vow +1 Ninja +2) 
Additional +1 on all saves vs.spells and spell-like abilities, +2 vs paralysis hold or entangle

Druid 1/Barbarian - Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Alertness, Endurance, Flaw:Shaky, Flaw:Vulnerable
Druid 2/Ninja 1 – Nymph's Kiss (Exalted bonus feat)
Druid 3/Cleric 1 – Eschew Materials
Druid 4/Ninja 2 - Intuitive Attack (Exalted bonus feat)
Druid 5/Fighter 2 – Improved Initiative (Fighter Bonus Feat)
Druid6/ (Saint)– Natural Spell, Nimbus of Light (Exalted bonus feat)
Druid7/ (Saint)
Druid8/ Master of Many Forms 1 – Touch of Golden Ice (Exalted bonus feat)
Druid 9/ Master of Many Forms 2 – Multiattack
Druid 10/ Master of Many Forms 3 – Lliira's Blessing (Exalted bonus feat)

Balance (Dex) 1 ranks 0 (synergy)
Bluff (Cha) 8 ranks 7
Concentration (Con) 18 ranks 13
Diplomacy (Cha) 7 ranks 4 (9 total on Wild Empathy, synergy*2)
Disguise (Cha) 4 ranks 5 (6 total in character, synergy)
Handle Animal (Cha) 6 ranks 5
Hide (Dex) 6 ranks 7
Jump (Str) -1 ranks 0 (synergy)
Knowledge (nature) (Int) 18 ranks 13 (druid +2)
Knowledge (planes) (Int) 10 ranks 7 (3 cross class)
Listen (Wis) 24 ranks 13 (alertness +2) (28 total with Blindsense)
Move Silently (Dex) 1 ranks 2 (bought cross class)
Spellcraft (Int) 8 ranks 5
Spot (Wis) 24 ranks 13 (alertness +2) (28 total with Blindsense)
Survival (Wis) 11 ranks 0 (Druid +2)
Tumble (Dex) 5 ranks 6

Special Abilities:

Bat Inherited characteristics
Blindsense - A bat notices and locates creatures within 20 feet. Opponents still have 100% concealment against a creature with blindsense. 
Skills - A bat has a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks. These bonuses are lost if its blindsense is negated. 


Saint
Tongues, always on.
Gain an Insight bonus to AC equal to the Saint’s Wisdom modifier (+9)
Holy Touch – the Saint’s melee attacks do +1d6 Holy damage vs. Evil creatures (or +1d8 vs. Evil Undead or Evil Outsiders). Any Evil creature that attacks the Saint with a Natural Attack takes the same amount of damage.
Able to cast Guidance, Resistance, Virtue, and Bless at will at Character level.(10th)
Gain Fast Healing (5).
Protective Aura – 20’ radius nimbus of light that can be activated as a Free Action. Acts as a double strength Magic Circle against Evil and a Less Globe of Invulnerability.
HD Damage Reduction 5 / evil

Barbarian
Rage – 1/day
Fast Movement +10'

Cleric
Luck Domain - ‘Good Fortune’ once per day  a single roll can be rerolled before the DM has declared the roll a success or failure, though the new roll must be kept.
Destiny Domain - A single attack, save, ability check, or skill check made by a willing creature other than yourself can be rerolled before the DM has declared the roll a success or failure, though the new roll must be kept. Usable once per day as an Immediate Action. You must be able to see the target.

Druid
Animal Companion (see below)
Nature Sense +2 bonus on Knowledge (nature) and Survival checks. 
Wild Empathy 
Woodland Stride - Starting at 2nd level, a druid may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at her normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion still affect her. 
Trackless Step - Starting at 3rd level, a druid leaves no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked. She may choose to leave a trail if so desired. 
Resist Nature’s Lure +4 bonus on saving throws against the spell-like abilities of fey. 
Wild Shape 
Venom Immunity - Immunity to all poisons. 

Master of Many Forms
Shifter Speech – You may speak verbally regardless of the form you take. You may also communicate with other creatures of the same kind while in a Wild
Shape.
Improved Wild Shape (Humanoid, Giant, Monstrous Humanoid – You may now use Wild Shape to take the form of a Humanoid, Giant, or Monstrous Humanoid whose base hit dice are not greater than your hit dice.
Improved Wild Shape (Large) – Your Wild Shapes may now be up to Large-sized.
Fast Wild Shape – Wild Shape as a move action.

Ninja
Wisdom bonus to AC (+9). This bonus applies even when Flat-Footed, but not when immobilized, wearing any armor, using a shield, or when carrying a Medium (or heavier) load.
Ki Power – receive ½ Ninja level (min 1) + Wisdom modifier uses of your Ki powers  each day. As long as you have at least one use left, you receive a +2 bonus on Will saves.
Ghost Step (invisible) – become Invisible for 1 round by expending one use of your Ki Power as a Swift Action that does not Provoke an Attack of Opportunity.
Sudden Strike +1d6 – When attacking a creature vulnerable to Sneak Attack who is denied his/her Dexterity bonus to AC. May not be used to do non-lethal damage. May be used with a Melee weapon or a Ranged weapon within 30’. 
Note: The main difference from Sneak Attack is that it does not applied to Flanked foes.
Trapfinding

Vow of Poverty
+7 AC doesn't effect touch attacks, doesn't stack with armor.
Exalted bonus feats at 1st level 2nd level and every 2 levels thereafter.
Endure Elements – no need for fortitude saves between -50 and 140 degrees.
+2 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls, good typed.
Sustenance – Doesn't need to eat or drink.
+1 Deflection bonus to AC
+1 Resistance bonus to all saving throws
+2 to a single ability score
+1 Natural Armor bonus
Mind Shielding - Immune to Detect Thoughts, Discern Lies, and any attempt to discern alignment
Damage Reduction – DR 5/evil


Animal Companion
Hopzeru, Fleshraker Dinosaur
M Animal HD 8d8+16 Init +6 Speed 50' AC 25 touch 15 flat 20 Base Attack +6 Grap +10 Attack +10 d6+4 Full 2 claws +10 d6+4 1 bite +5 d6+2 and tail +5 d6+2 and poison (cannot use bite and tail at same time) SA leaping pounce – full attack on charge, if hits M or smaller free trip attempt, if successful free grapple attempt. If trip fails opponent can't trip in return, if grapple fails opponent still prone. SA poison DC 14 d6 Dex/d6 Dex con save

Druid Spells 

0 Detect Magic X4, Create Water, Cure Minor Wounds
1st EntangleX2, Obscuring Mist, Omen of Peril (CD,SC), Animate Wood, Wood Wose (CD,SC), Enrage Animal (SC)
2nd Blinding Spittle (PgtF), Gust of Wind, Lesser Restoration, Major Resistance (SS), Embrace the Wild (Cadv), Briar Web (CD,SC)
3rd Lion's Charge X2 (SC), Venomfire (Serpent Kingdoms), Hypothermia X2 (SC)
4th Flame strike, Blast of Sand (Sandstorm), Arc of Lightning (SC), Enhance Wild Shape X2 (SC)
5th Animal Growth, Baleful Polymorph X3

Cleric Spells

0 Cure Minor Wounds, Guidance X2
1st Sanctuary X2, Vigor, Hide from Undead

Equipment

loincloth

Favored Forms

Cave Troll 
Init +5 Speed 50'
AC 46 (base 10 Dex +1 Insight [Saint] +9 untyped [Ninja] +9, Armor [Vow] +7, Deflection +1 Natural +11 Size -1 Flaw -1) Touch 19, Flat 45
Grapple +23 
Attack: Claw +19 melee (2d6+9) (evil must save vs DC 14 or d6/2d6 Dex loss)
Full Attack: 2 Claws +19 melee (2d6+9) and Bite +17 (1d8+4) (evil must save vs DC 14 or d6/2d6 Dex loss)
Special Attacks: dazing blow(DC 22 fort save if 2 claws hit), pounce, improved grab (free grapple if bite hits), rake (+19 2d6+4 when grappling) and, rend (2d6+13 if 2 claws hit) 
Special Abilities (if Enhance Wild Shape active): dark vision 90', fast heal 8, low-light vision, scent
Str 29 Dex 13 Con 30

Giant Octopus
Init +6 Speed 30'
AC 43 (base 10 Dex +2 Insight [Saint] +9 untyped [Ninja] +9, Armor [Vow] +7, Deflection +1 Natural +7 Size -1 Flaw -1) Touch 20, Flat 41
Grapple +19
Attack: Tentacle rake +19 melee (d4+5) or bite +19 (d8+5)
Full Attack: 8 Tentacle Rakes +19 (d4+5) and Bite +17 (d8+2)
Special Attacks: improved grab (free grapple if tentacle hit M or smaller), constrict (2d8+6 when grappling m or smaller)
Special Abilities: ink cloud (20X20 darkness concealment 1/min), jet (move 200' backward as dbl move), +4 hide
Str 20 Dex 15 Con 16

Fleshraker Dinosaur
Init +7 Speed 60'
AC 44 (base 10 Dex +4 Insight [Saint] +9 untyped [Ninja] +9, Armor [Vow] +7, Deflection +1 Natural +6 Size -1 Flaw -1) Touch 22, Flat 40
Grapple +13
Attack Claw +19 (d6+3+DC 14 d6/d6 poison)
Full Attack 2 Claws +19 (d6+3+DC 14 d6/d6 poison) and Tail +17 (d6+1+DC 14 d6/d6 poison)
Special Attack: leaping pounce (full attack plus rake on charge, free trip if damages same size or smaller, if trip successful free grapple which pins if successful), poison, rake (+12 d6+2)
Special Abilities: low-light vision, scent, +8 hide (+10 in forest), +6 jump
Str 17 Dex 19 Con 18
Note: the Venomfire spell is often used in this form (venom does an additional d6/level acid damage with each use)[/sblock]


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## Lord_Raven88 (Jul 10, 2006)

Voidrazor said:
			
		

> OK, here's what I hope will be the final version of Vhandamere. Gah its 4AM!
> 
> 
> [sblock]
> ...



Okay start posting in the IC thread.


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## Lord_Raven88 (Jul 13, 2006)

Voidrazor: Can you please post Vhandamere to the RG. 

Thanks.


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## Ferrix (Jul 13, 2006)

Well, here's the interesting thing I wanted to ask...

The war weaver's eldritch tapestry allows him to expand the number of people included in the effects of a spell to a total equal to his Intelligence modifier up and above the normal allowed for the spell, so long as the spell has either the harmless designator or has willing targets.  Since teleport has the willing targets thing and can be range touch to include others, it seems to mean that it would allow him to cast it through his eldritch tapestry and take everyone along.


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## Lord_Raven88 (Jul 13, 2006)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Well, here's the interesting thing I wanted to ask...
> 
> The war weaver's eldritch tapestry allows him to expand the number of people included in the effects of a spell to a total equal to his Intelligence modifier up and above the normal allowed for the spell, so long as the spell has either the harmless designator or has willing targets.  Since teleport has the willing targets thing and can be range touch to include others, it seems to mean that it would allow him to cast it through his eldritch tapestry and take everyone along.



I concur   , infact they way I understand the War Weaver's Eldritch tapestry is that not only would Geron be able to use Teleport to affect all of his companions via his tapestry, but he could still bring up to 3 others along who aren't in his tapestry.

As such I'll update the IC thread to take this into account.


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## Ferrix (Jul 14, 2006)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> I concur   , infact they way I understand the War Weaver's Eldritch tapestry is that not only would Geron be able to use Teleport to affect all of his companions via his tapestry, but he could still bring up to 3 others along who aren't in his tapestry.
> 
> As such I'll update the IC thread to take this into account.




Geron is a great support caster with that eldritch tapestry


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## Voidrazor (Jul 14, 2006)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> Voidrazor: Can you please post Vhandamere to the RG.
> 
> Thanks.




Posted with one edit: added number of wildshape uses per day and duration.


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## Ferrix (Jul 14, 2006)

Voidrazor... you have miscalculated your touch AC numerous times.

Insight, ninja, size, dex, and deflection bonuses to AC apply to touch AC.  Natural armor and armor (vow) do not.  Thus your touch AC should be much higher in all forms.

Just something I noticed obviously glancing at your sheet.

Also, your BAB is incorrect.  It should be +8/+3 (+2 for 2 good BAB levels, +6 for 8 medium BAB levels)

Your saves are likewise incorrect.  They should be Fort +7 base (10 levels of good Fort save), Refl +5 base (5 levels of good Refl save, 5 levels of poor Reflex save), Will +7 base (10 levels of good Will save); plus all the other modifiers.


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## Lord_Raven88 (Aug 4, 2006)

Sorry about not updating the IC post today, but I've been swamped with an all day meeting, I'll update the IC when I return on Monday.


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## Voidrazor (Aug 4, 2006)

Ferrix-

Just saw your post. I'll fix it tonight or tomorrow.


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## Voidrazor (Aug 5, 2006)

Ah, I see the source of the discrepancy. I was calculating BAB and saves on a per level rather than aggregate basis. Thus, if either side gave a bump at a particular level I bumped. I also double bumped the good save for the first level of new classes. But I never added both sides together or any silliness like that.

Did I do it wrong?


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## Lord_Raven88 (Aug 17, 2006)

*AoO Question*

As I'm not a rules lawyer and I don't often play fighter types, I'm a bit hazy on how AoO work.

From Wrahn previous post, it was suggested that the Retreiver he was going to attack would get an AoO on the Goliath as he moved into range, is this true? I thought the Retreiver would only get an AoO if the an opponent moved out of it's threatened range while not using the withdraw action or a 5' step.


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## Voidrazor (Aug 17, 2006)

I believe the AoO would occur from moving from a square 10' away from the retriever (which it can reach) into a square 5' from it. Wrahn had a slick trick planned for avoiding this before. By coming in on diagonal squares his char would be moving from a square that was technically 15' away (and out of reach) directly to the corner spot 5' away.


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## Wrahn (Aug 18, 2006)

Here is the relevant passage in the SRD:


> Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot-step and the withdraw action (see below).




If they have 10 feet of reach (I am actually unsure if they do, I just assumed) then if directly approached, when you enter within 10 feet of them you enter the first threatened square.  Moving closer to them, you leave the first threatened square and enter another, thus provoking an attack of opportunity.

Because of the way diagnals are counted (first is 5 feet second is 10 for a total of 15) I could enter at an angle because he did not threaten the second diagnal space. (which was 15 away.)

Thought it was appropriate for the  tactically minded Goliath


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## Lord_Raven88 (Aug 20, 2006)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Here is the relevant passage in the SRD:
> 
> 
> If they have 10 feet of reach (I am actually unsure if they do, I just assumed) then if directly approached, when you enter within 10 feet of them you enter the first threatened square.  Moving closer to them, you leave the first threatened square and enter another, thus provoking an attack of opportunity.
> ...



Thanks for that, I finally understand why this is the case for creatures with reach weapons, regarding the diagonal thing I'll have to think on that one, obviously I wouldn't allow anything nonsensical, but suffice it to say that I won't go back and do an AoO on Ununwhatever'hisname is


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## Wrahn (Aug 21, 2006)

Just as a way of explaination of Ununkua'em's name.  In the fluff text of the warmind class it refers to Ununquam the Vanquisher, a warrior of great prowess whom some of the teachings of the Warmind was based.

In races of stone they give a random name generator which the closest that it comes to Ununquam was Ununkua'em, thus the name and a little more background than absolutely necessary.


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## Lord_Raven88 (Aug 22, 2006)

I'm still waiting on Amazing Triangle and Ferrix to post their actions then I'll update the IC thread accordingly, also Voidrazor can you include a little bit more detail, such as your AC, HP's and attack mods for your two listed actions.

Also before something nasty happens to you all   I would like to get you input on a _'hypothetical'_ scenario   

How much damage does a 6500 lb object cause when it jumps falls from a 30 foot height.

By my calculation it would cause 32d6 (6500 / 200 lbs) + 2d6 (1d6 per 10' fallen past the first 10' drop), for a total of 34d6 *ouch*   

To be fair *if* such an object were to fall on some luckless suckers   , I'd have to allow a DC 15 Reflex Save.

Probably  

I bet you're all glad you not faced with such a situation


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## Shayuri (Aug 22, 2006)

That'd be oddly suicidal tactics for a mindless construct. Unless its masters gave it routine instructions to climb up and jump on people.


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## Voidrazor (Aug 22, 2006)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> That'd be oddly suicidal tactics for a mindless construct. Unless its masters gave it routine instructions to climb up and jump on people.




The construct would only take 2d6. Beings foolish enough to be standing underneath when it landed would, at least theoretically, take the 34 dice.


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## Shayuri (Aug 22, 2006)

lol...ahhh, D&D physics. Where a falling object can exert more force on what it hits, than what it hits exerts on it. It's magic!


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## Lord_Raven88 (Aug 22, 2006)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> lol...ahhh, D&D physics. Where a falling object can exert more force on what it hits, than what it hits exerts on it. It's magic!



It does seem a bit strange I agree, then again if you drop a coin from 200 feet it can kill someone if it hits, while not being destroyed itself.

Or so I here, I haven't actually tried it myself, honest


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## Shayuri (Aug 22, 2006)

Hehe, I -believe- you! 

But really, what you're talking about there is a difference in composition and density. The person's skull "hits" the coin with the same force that the coin hits the skull. But the skull and flesh are softer, more brittle, and thus break. Thus, the person is injured.

The force on the coin will likely deform it, but since metal is pretty tough stuff, it's unlikely it'll be "destroyed." 

In D&D terms, just consider the coin to have a high Hardness, that sucks up most of the damage, wheras the luckless victim has none.


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