# Another take on the Necromancer class



## TheLordWinter (Oct 1, 2008)

So I'd been intrigued by the Dark path for Warlocks featured in the Forgotten Realms' Player's Handbook, but felt it didn't quite go far enough in hurting players now for benefits later. While I understand its somewhat antithetical to 4e's design philosophy, it was a mechanic I'd always thought was rather interesting. I decided the necromancer would be the epitome of this type of design and searched the boards to see if someone had updated the class for fourth edition. While intrigued by the necromancer that Pyrogod had designed (http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan...8-update-necromancer-class-work-progress.html) I found that it felt a bit minion heavy for me.

I longed for the types of necromancers from 2nd edition AD&D, for whom an entire sourcebook was dedicated. And so, I did my best to create a necromancer who is terrifying on the battlefield, and whose abilities are alarming to allies, deeply disturbing to the party's paladin and a constant tactical choice for the player between hurting allies, hurting himself and when the right amount of each is required.

I'd love any feedback anyone would like to offer, and I should first warn that this class is currently unplaytested. It goes from levels 1 through 10, and features a few bonus feats and a new monster (usable by the class as a familiar). 

I hope people enjoy it!


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## CrimsonHawk (Oct 3, 2008)

This is an extremely interesting take on the necromancer.  Arcane Leader?  I did a double-take on that until I read the Manipulate Life power.  Brilliant!

I've only done a cursory once-over of the document, but what I have seen, I really really like.  I want to encourage you keep up the hard work you've put into this.  I really like it and hope you'll see it all the way to 30th level with paragon paths.


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## Wraith Form (Oct 3, 2008)

Agreed.  I'm hoping my DM will let me play one ASAP.


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## Soel (Oct 3, 2008)

This is a great take on the Necromancer! You've got some cool powers in there (especially the Vargouille one!) 

I hope you finish, and look forward to more. Also can't wait for the paragon paths.


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## CrimsonHawk (Oct 9, 2008)

I hope to see more support for this version of the class.  I hope to see Lord Winter encouraged to finish this class.


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## TheLordWinter (Oct 9, 2008)

It's definitely my plan to do so. Woefully real world needs have taken precedence but the class is still cooking and I'll be updating it for Paragon level at some point and then for Epic.

Thank you for the interest though!


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## CrimsonHawk (Oct 9, 2008)

Forgive me my fanboyishness, but this is a good class.  Of course real-world takes precedence, so you make sure you take of that first.  Just knowing you haven't forgotten is more than I can ask for.


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## modus666 (Oct 22, 2008)

*request to use powers?*

i am also working on a slightly more controller-flavored necromancer.  to be honest most of the powers im using so far are re-flavored from existing material, but i like a lot of hte unique powers you came up with.

with your permission i'd like to modify a few of them to fit into the controller-flavored build im testing out.  would you mind?


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## TheLordWinter (Oct 23, 2008)

Sure thing, feel free to use and modify some of what I've created here. Eventually there'll be more levels worth of it, once I've got some more free time to write.


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## Fieari (Oct 23, 2008)

When you wrote in the flavor that someone would have to pay the price for another's healing, I was imagining abilities that would drain life from one target and give it to another.  Some of the abilities do this, but not the basic one.  Perhaps you can have the ability allow you to touch up to two creatures, and have the one spend a healing surge on behalf of the other, with the note that you may include yourself as one of the two targets.

This would also make the undead side effect meaningful, as you'd be able to weaken living targets if you maneuvered right.  As it is, I see the weaken+damage thing as flavor only, as no one would do it voluntarily.  (Unless they themselves were undead, and wanted to use it to damage others)


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## TheLordWinter (Oct 23, 2008)

The anti-undead clause is both flavour and a safe guard so that you cannot gain an infinite number of surges via your Shadow Summoning. Theoretically you could summon the shadow, lose a few HPs, steal surges from it and then regain the HPs, then wash-rinse-repeat. At least one of the paragon paths will allow faster summoning of the shadow familiar and more familiars, so this could become abusive.

Plus the life is coming from somewhere in the basic healing ability, it's just a much more direct transfer - either your life to another or their life to you. This was intentional, particularly to allow the party to retain mobility with a necromancer as the only leader. If the life transference required both targets to be adjacent to the necromancer, it would keep the party very tightly formed and also very vulnerable to enemy artillery attacks.


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## evilgenius8000 (Oct 26, 2008)

Perhaps it's just me, but the abilities really scream "Shadow power source" to me. Otherwise, it's a great class and quite close to what I was planning on doing with the necromancer (Shadow leader).


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## CrimsonHawk (Oct 26, 2008)

evilgenius8000 said:


> Perhaps it's just me, but the abilities really scream "Shadow power source" to me. Otherwise, it's a great class and quite close to what I was planning on doing with the necromancer (Shadow leader).




I would agree, EG, if WotC had already set pen to paper defining exactly what the Shadow source is and what it is capable of doing.  Right now, even with the barbarian playtest out, I'm loathe to tempt fate even with our interpretations of the Primal power source, let alone Shadow, Psionic, or Elemental.


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## evilgenius8000 (Oct 26, 2008)

Point taken. I guess it is hard to say what will differentiate the different power sources in the end...


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## CrimsonHawk (Oct 27, 2008)

evilgenius8000 said:


> Point taken. I guess it is hard to say what will differentiate the different power sources in the end...




That having been said, though, I don't blame you at all for liking it for what it is.  And if the Shadow source does indeed turn out to be what everyone and their Great Uncle Sally are assuming it will be, this will make a perfect Shadow leader.

For now, though, it makes a fantastic Arcane leader for those who do not want to play an artificer or one of the plethora of bards out there.


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## TheLordWinter (Oct 27, 2008)

Thank you for the compliments. As for the reasons I didn't make this a shadow-sourced class, as stated we don't really know what it does yet and I wanted my necromancer to stand out a bit. The necromancers of previous editions, while always depicted as somewhat different, still had to follow the same rules as other wizards. I wanted to try and tap into that and show that the Necromancer is almost like a wizard, but he's gone farther than others and it's marked him as somehow different. He's crossed the lines that other wizards know there is no coming back from.


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## eleventh (Nov 8, 2008)

I would second the shadow power source comment. But firstly, I like it! One thing I had in mind, though, was a change to "Manipulate Life". It seems a bit out of place in comparison to the other class feature healing actions:

Healing Word - an ally spends a healing surge and regains hit points
Inspiring Word - an ally spends a healing surge and regains hit points
Lay on Hands - you spend a healing surge and an ally regains hit points

All three of these are minor actions, are usable a certain number of times per encounter, are guaranteed to work, and take healing surges away from your party. Your ability is a minor action and is usable a certain number of times per encounter - check. But it is not guaranteed to work; you have to land an attack on an enemy. Also, it takes healing surges away from your enemies (although monsters don't really use this mechanic in my experience). I have an idea to keep with the same theme, which I like, but to reconcile these two differences.

I thought it would be interesting to make this ability a reversal of or _shadow _to the paladin's "lay on hands" ability. In essence, the ability would allow you to take a healing surge from any willing ally and grant hit points to any other ally. This would be guaranteed (no attack necessary) and would stick with the themes of sacrifice and redistribution of health that your necromancer class seems predicated upon. It might also be cool to base the number of times it is usable per day on some secondary ability (such as charisma or wisdom).

*Blood Pact*
At-Will (Special) <> Shadow, Healing
Special: You can use this power a number of times per day equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1), but only once per round.
Minor Action, Melee touch
Target: One willing ally
Effect: The target spends a healing surge but gains no hit points. Instead, a different ally you can see regains hit points as though (s)he had spent a healing surge. The target must have at least one healing surge remaining for you to use this power.


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## TheLordWinter (Nov 9, 2008)

eleventh said:


> But it is not guaranteed to work; you have to land an attack on an enemy. Also, it takes healing surges away from your enemies (although monsters don't really use this mechanic in my experience).




It's been stated that enemies have a number of healing surges which scale with their tier, you can find that on page 7 of the Monster Manual. They have one surge per tier, but most monsters have no way to spend their healing surges. I'll admit that will be of limited detriment to most monsters, however it does work. 

The part you're missing though is that you only need to make an attack roll against an unwilling target. Your (presumably) willing allies will let you use the power on them, and in turn you may either spend one of their healing surges to heal yourself or spend one of your healing surges to heal them. 

The ability to use this type of healing offensively (healing yourself at the cost of an enemy's surges) is a different take on the healing mechanic than we've seen with other leaders. It also is a risky way to use the ability since it can only heal the necromancer herself, you must be within melee range and you must land the successful attack roll. However that was meant to be almost a secondary usage for the ability - the primary use remains being within melee range of allies and spending your surges to heal them or vice-versa.

Edit: In addition, in reference to the Shadow Power Source, it hasn't officially been released yet. I am also trying to make this necromancer harken back to the sort of classic necromancer archetype we've seen in previous editions of the game - which has meant a wizard who delves too deeply into life and death. This take on the necromancer is based around the study of arcane mysteries and secrets, which may seem similar to the shadow power source, yet I feel stands apart from it since the necromancer isn't drawing his power directly from the Shadowfell but rather his studies and own willpower.


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## saric (Nov 10, 2008)

TheLordWinter said:


> Edit: In addition, in reference to the Shadow Power Source, it hasn't officially been released yet. I am also trying to make this necromancer harken back to the sort of classic necromancer archetype we've seen in previous editions of the game - which has meant a wizard who delves too deeply into life and death. This take on the necromancer is based around the study of arcane mysteries and secrets, which may seem similar to the shadow power source, yet I feel stands apart from it since the necromancer isn't drawing his power directly from the Shadowfell but rather his studies and own willpower.





Actually in the phb it details the other power sources, check out the phb page 54

_"Future power sources include elemental, ki, primal, psionic, and shadow."_


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## TheLordWinter (Nov 10, 2008)

saric said:


> Actually in the phb it details the other power sources, check out the phb page 54
> 
> _"Future power sources include elemental, ki, primal, psionic, and shadow."_




I must say that I don't think that really counts as detailing them. However if you'll look at the description provided for the arcane power source on that page, which goes into where the power comes from, it is pretty much exactly what I had in mind for the class. It's a different flavor of arcane caster, whose power comes from intensive study and research.


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## CrimsonHawk (Nov 13, 2008)

Okay, I decided to try to compile my own arcane leader Necromancer, since I admittedly grew impatient... yay, immediate gratification!  Well, now I owe you an apology, TLW.  I now have a much, much, _much _greater appreciation of the time constraint issue you are facing.  Thank you so much for all the hard work you've put into this!


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## TheLordWinter (Nov 13, 2008)

I'm sorry for the delay CrimsonHawk! Trust me, I wanna work on the Necromancer but for reasons unknown my professors keep asking me for term papers. In addition some small crises have arisen in my personal life, which have prevented me from accomplishing anything productive, both D&D and wider-world related.

Rest assured though, I haven't forgotten about this class. As something to whet your appetite, here's a few of the ideas I've got for Paragon Paths:
The Anatomist: A true master of the living body, you've gained great knowledge of the forces that control life. Powers will focus on healing and ending debilitating conditions on allies.

The Deathslayer: Driven by a passion few can understand, you seek to put an end to the half-lives of the living dead. Powers will focus on overcoming resistance to necrotic damage and inflicting very high damage to undead. Will include an action point ability to switch the necrotic and radiant keywords for a power until the end of your turn.

The Ghul Lord: Your toying with life and death has left you with a hunger for power - the power of other's lives. You have become a beacon to weak-willed undead, who flock to you. Will be able to summon multiple Shadow Familiars and control them during the round. Powers will focus on Shadow Familiars, draining life from enemies for your benefit and inflicting debilitating conditions on victims.

I hope that at least keeps your interest up! Probably next month I will begin work in earnest again, and hopefully push through the Paragon tier. Thank you for your enthusiasm, I'm really glad to know you're digging my work!


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## Hellgrammite (Nov 13, 2008)

With those suggestions you should just refer him the whole AD&D Necromancy book.


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## TheLordWinter (Nov 14, 2008)

Hellgrammite said:


> With those suggestions you should just refer him the whole AD&D Necromancy book.




The wonderful part about fan done material is that you can draw from many sources, and that one is a particular favorite of mine. I'm glad someone noticed how heavily I was borrowing from it! I started playing AD&D with second edition, and the Complete Guide to Necromancers was one of the first books I picked up. In fact, the idea for the Shadow Familiar came directly from the imp that Pizentios has in the Complete Guide.

It's been my major source of inspiration for the necromancer class I've been working on, and you may actually note there are several powers drawn from it as well as the Paragon Paths. I felt that the necromancers featured there were genuinely scary villains, where-as the necromancers of the Libris Mortis (the major 3rd edition book on undead and necromancy) lacked some of that same spark. This isn't to say that I haven't been looking at the Libris, the Book of Vile Darkness and other fantasy stories, but the special place the Complete Guide has in my heart has made it my top source to draw ideas from.


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## CrimsonHawk (Nov 15, 2008)

TheLordWinter said:


> The wonderful part about fan done material is that you can draw from many sources, and that one is a particular favorite of mine. I'm glad someone noticed how heavily I was borrowing from it!




TLW, your response was far more diplomatic than mine would have been, given that you pretty much stated in the OP that it was one of your major inspirations.  Thank you!


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## TheLordWinter (Nov 15, 2008)

Thank you CrimsonHawk. I must admit, I did borrow heavily from the Complete Guide to Necromancer's for the Paragon Paths. However, that also only represents three of the current ideas, I still need to figure out a fourth and I will endeavor to make that one completely original.


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## DMINGW00TISAWSOME (Dec 4, 2008)

Sorry this is so off topic, but I just chose a random thread to put my question on. How do I put something on the website so that other people can download it? I ask because I am working on a class that I don't want to make a massive post for.


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## TheLordWinter (Dec 5, 2008)

I wish you'd started this in a separate thread rather than post it in this one, but what the heck. At the bottom of a new post or a reply, you'll see there's a button entitled manage attachments. Just click on that and it'll handle uploading things to ENWorld.


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## CrimsonHawk (Jan 6, 2009)

Casting an _animate dead_ spell on this thread, as I'm still intrigued by this class concept.  I hope life is treating you well, as you deserve, TLW.


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## evilbob (Jan 6, 2009)

TheLordWinter said:


> I'd love any feedback anyone would like to offer, and I should first warn that this class is currently unplaytested. It goes from levels 1 through 10, and features a few bonus feats and a new monster (usable by the class as a familiar).



Some thoughts:

Command the Dead should be at least an encounter power, probably a daily.  It's that good.  In fact, maybe it'd be better as a level 9 or higher daily attack power instead of a class feature.  A class feature would need to be something much less powerful.  You could make it similar to a fighter's mark - or better yet, like a paladin's divine challenge:  you can use a minor to "mark" an undead and it has penalty to attack you and takes damage if it does.

Command the Dead
You exert your will over the living dead.
At-Will ✦ Arcane
Minor Action Close burst 5
Target: One creature with the undead keyword in burst
Effect: You mark the target.  That creature takes a -5 penalty to attack you and if it succeeds on an attack that damages you, it takes damage equal to your Wis modifier + 3.  This effect lasts until the beginning of your next turn.  You can use Command the Dead once per turn.

Sure, it's restricted to undead-only, but you only have to be close to it and the penalty is severe.  That's still way less powerful than dominating every round.  Of course, it's a sort of silly penalty in some ways - minus to attack and THEN you take damage - but still, it's the general idea.


Manipulate Life - I also like the idea about making the "necro's healing word" power a bit different, too.  Pulling a healing surge from a monster is also a bit too powerful, since healing surges are so good and monsters can't use them.  I like the version eleventh presented, but I would just make it even more like Healing Word - 2 times per encounter, pull a surge from yourself or willing ally and send to an ally within range.  Simple enough.


Disperse the Fleeing Soul - Personally, I would re-do so that it isn't a weapon power, but maybe that's just me.  Also, you're pretty much giving an at-will power that's the same as the level 5 weapon power... except it also works on everyone in range?  That's awfully strong.  I'd limit it to either 1 temp for everyone in range, or Int temps for yourself.  Maybe Int temps for an ally in range.


Fester - 1d10 is also a tad strong for an at-will, even if it doesn't do anything else and is limited in targets.  It'd be better to throw an effect on it and reduce the die to d8 or something like that, in my opinion.


Lesser Shadow's Drain - Should this be a weapon attack since it targets AC?  Otherwise you'll have a hard time hitting.  Also 1/2 damage is not the best mechanic because you can use items/other powers to up damage.  Maybe just Int temps again?


Talons of Darkness - Did you mean this to be a weapon one as well?  Also a d8 seems strong to me.


That's as far as I got, but overall I'd say the flavor is awesome, the ideas are awesome, but everything is either a bit too powerful or way too powerful.  That might be just me, though.


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## ardentmoth (Jan 15, 2009)

TLW, what would you think of shedding hitpoints to heal an ally, or taking a con hit for a period of time? Reading the flavor, it seems to me that a Necro could get a little masochistic, cutting himself to heal others with the life in his still warm blood.

Course, I like it as is. Mine was only a minor mechanic idea.


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## Belaugured DM (Mar 30, 2009)

Excellent work here. I  want to add my support. I am inserting it into my campaign at the request of one of my players and I will let you know how it tests out.


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## TheLordWinter (May 28, 2009)

Okay - so I know a few folks have been playing the class and trying it out. What I need right now is some feedback. What works for this class and what doesn't? I've yet to begin the paragon tier stuff, but I'd like to have the lower level abilities in good working order before I move on to the higher tier stuff. It'll also give me a better baseline to work from.


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## Weather Man (May 30, 2009)

I'm new so excuse me if I say or do anything stupid. I really only joined because I saw Winter's Necromancer class. Anyway I have been playing this class and I am now at level 4, so far it seems pretty balanced. I have to say I have little complaints, but I do have some suggestions.

The Lances of blood were a bit overpowered, however I think I may have read the power wrong. I was stacking damage against one opponent, by sacrificing more health, and it seemed way to strong for a level 1 daily, I was dishing 200 damage at level one. Now I realize that sacking extra health only let's you hit more enemies, that should probably be made a bit clearer.

Some of the guys I was playing with suggested the idea of powers focused around disperse the Fleeing soul, so instead of using it to heal youself you can channel the lifeforce of a slain enemy into powerful attacks, and buffs. 


Definately design some Necromancy based rituals, it would be really cool if we had some more. Necromancy based artifacts, alchemical formulas, and other items would be good.

Maybe some bonuses to death based rituals, for instance lowering the DC, have the cost, maybe use one or two Necromancy based rituals a day for free.

Maybe some variations on the Shadow Familiar.

My DM said that feats and such applying to wizards, such as expanded spellbook would also apply to any class whose powers are designated as spells, so that would  also inculde the Necromancer.

Just some ideas, however I feel that for the most part the Heroic tier is successful.


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## Cwheeler (Jun 4, 2009)

I love the class, although it may be nice to see a way to shift healing surges from ally to ally.

Keep up the good work, I'm looking forwards to seeing the result!


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