# Wizards: We want Class Power decks



## Kunimatyu (Feb 23, 2008)

Now that we know most of a class's options are contained within its powers, I'd like to see Wizards make decks of cards for each class with each core power present. Expansion books (like Martial Power) would have associated decks as well.

I don't want D&D to turn into a full-fledged card game, but being able to put my powers in front of me on the battlemat, and then "tap" or turn face-down per-encounter or per-day powers would be really nice.


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## Charwoman Gene (Feb 23, 2008)

In before Collectiblility

SUre, like 2e.


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## Wormwood (Feb 23, 2008)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Now that we know most of a class's options are contained within its powers, I'd like to see Wizards make decks of cards for each class with each core power present.



My _very first _thought upon seeing the preview was, "I'm definitely printing these out on cards".


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## mach1.9pants (Feb 23, 2008)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> My _very first _thought upon seeing the preview was, "I'm definitely printing these out on cards".



Hopefully should be easy if we can get the books we buy in .PDF. If that is the plan?


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## Snarls-at-Fleas (Feb 23, 2008)

Right now I use cards in my 3.75 homebrew and it's good, but sometimes people get confused with their cards, sometimes they lose them (where is my Whirlwind!?  ), sometimes they spend too much time skimming through them.
But still cards are very good - no book flipping, no checking/unchecking boxes and so on.
So I second the idea.


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## Khairn (Feb 23, 2008)

The idea of class power decks (for wizards and other classes) seems a perfect fit for how WotC is developing the future of D&D.  I can easily see how limited or rare powers might become even "collectable".  Great marketing possibilities.


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## Wormwood (Feb 23, 2008)

Charwoman Gene said:
			
		

> In before Collectiblility.



You made it by 4 posts.

Nice work!


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## Dragonblade (Feb 23, 2008)

Devyn said:
			
		

> The idea of class power decks (for wizards and other classes) seems a perfect fit for how WotC is developing the future of D&D.  I can easily see how limited or rare powers might become even "collectable".  Great marketing possibilities.




HELL NO! I am very pro 4e, but if WotC turns D&D into a CCG, I'm OUT.

A deck of power cards would be cool as an accessory. And ONLY an accessory.

Powers should always be fully printed in books. If I have to buy a deck of cards to get all the powers I need to play a class, then I officially turn against 4e.


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## Wormwood (Feb 23, 2008)

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> If I have to buy a deck of cards to get all the powers I need to play a class, then I officially turn against 4e.



Of course---and I agree with you.

But since this scheme _only _exists in the fertile imaginations of forum posters, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.


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## Ulthwithian (Feb 23, 2008)

Dragonblade: I honestly don't think anyone was seriously suggesting such a thing.  There is a way to make something collectible without going the CCG route.  You could get the 'normal' cards, but then produce a limited-print 'full card art' Fireball power, e.g.  Another wonderful possibility would be to do something like WoW TCG Hero cards, with art and ability on one side, and just the art on the other.

In any event, I'm a huge supporter of power cards as game aids.


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## Incenjucar (Feb 23, 2008)

The obvious thing to do here is to just make a nice, simple tool that lets you fill in a sheet with the powers desired (so you don't have to waste paper on anything unwanted) from your books in the DI tools.

Failing that, we can just type in our own, but WotC could spruce things up a bit more and make it look good.

I don't think they'll bother to make "Power Cards" in complete decks, as it sounds like way too niche of a product.  But I wouldn't object at all if they did.

Unless it was random, because random can go crawl up Orcus' loincloth and die.


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## Doug McCrae (Feb 23, 2008)

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> HELL NO! I am very pro 4e, but if WotC turns D&D into a CCG, I'm OUT.



Don't worry. They're so busy simultaneously turning it into an anime, a videogame, a wargame, an action movie, Exalted, Rifts and making it all about the rollplaying instead of the roleplaying that they have very little time left.


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## WhatGravitas (Feb 23, 2008)

Of course, that would be nice... otherwise I'm doing it myself! 

And WotC wouldn't go the CCG route, because it would alienate players immensely and clash with their virtual tabletop ("hey nifty, now I can copy all the stuff down"). Hard to unify that, and would severely limit their ways to produce adventures ("oops, don't have that card for that monster").

It worked with DDM, because it is a game on its own and because it was an _accessory_, i.e. you don't _need_ it to play.

But as a non-collectible accessory with artwork? Sure, Dungeon Tiles are selling pretty well (and they're pretty cool as well).

Cheers, LT.


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## Set (Feb 23, 2008)

Seems like a sensible thing.  I'm surprised that they never really made it work in previous editions, given how many of us use Game Mechanic cards or just stuff statted up on index cards for our own convenience.


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## Dragonblade (Feb 23, 2008)

Ulthwithian said:
			
		

> In any event, I'm a huge supporter of power cards as game aids.




I'm totally cool with cards as a game aid. As long as the cards are only reprinting what is already in the books I buy. Heck, I'd probably buy those cards myself.

But if the class powers you get on cards are randomized, or if they do something awful like only offering new classes and powers via collectible randomized card packs, then I'm picking up a pitchfork and torch and heading to Renton.


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## Tusz (Feb 23, 2008)

When I saw the way powers will work, I already decided I'd make some of these for myself. Design a card for each type of ability (/will, /encounter, /day, just so I know which ones to flip back over), print out some blank ones on cardstock, and write in my character's abilities on 'em when I make him.

That said, I probably wouldn't buy official ones that came in a deck with pre-printed with abilities on them. I'd feel obligated to buy the new set every time I got a new book, and that's a bit more than my college-budget can handle. I'd prefer they didn't put them in the books, as well, since I'd rather those pages be used to expand the actual content of the books. But if WotC put them up online, maybe with the PDFs as an encouragement to pay the little fee, then I'd probably go for that.


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## Greenfaun (Feb 23, 2008)

Just to add my vote: Cards yes please, collectible hell no. 

I'm happy to make the cards myself, but PDF's would be awesomely user-friendly. I guess we'll see.


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## TwinBahamut (Feb 23, 2008)

Well, WotC already made a full set of cards for the Bo9S Maneuvers as a PDF on their website, so I imagine that they will do at least that for the new Powers.

While I didn't use the official cards, I did use cards to organize my maneuvers when I was playing my Warblade character, and it really helped a _lot_. I will almost certainly do the same when I play a character in 4E.


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## am181d (Feb 23, 2008)

Incenjucar said:
			
		

> I don't think they'll bother to make "Power Cards" in complete decks, as it sounds like way too niche of a product.  But I wouldn't object at all if they did.




We still don't know what the 4e version of the OGL is going to look like, but this is the sort of thing that a third-party publisher like Paizo could knock out of the park (if WotC thinks it's too niche).


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## MaelStorm (Feb 23, 2008)

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> I'm totally cool with cards as a game aid. As long as the cards are only reprinting what is already in the books I buy. Heck, I'd probably buy those cards myself.
> 
> But if the class powers you get on cards are randomized, or if they do something awful like only offering new classes and powers via collectible randomized card packs, then I'm picking up a pitchfork and torch and heading to Renton.




I agree 100%. (particularly on the non-randomized aspect)


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## Dragonblade (Feb 23, 2008)

The more I think about it, the more I suspect that WotC plans to release a deck of cards. They probably kept it secret for fear the community would go nuts thinking that they were turning D&D into a CCG.


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## Meowzebub (Feb 23, 2008)

No need for randomized or collector arguments. For Book of Nine Swords, WOTC produced an on-line downloadable PDF of all of the Books maneuvers and stances in card format. Very high quality appearance, all the mechanics right there, and it was for free.  Very classy and very appreciated. No need to jump to conclusions, there is a good precedent.

Here is the link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a


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## MaelStorm (Feb 23, 2008)

Meowzebub said:
			
		

> No need for randomized or collector arguments. For Book of Nine Swords, WOTC produced an on-line downloadable PDF of all of the Books maneuvers and stances in card format. Very high quality appearance, all the mechanics right there, and it was for free.  Very classy and very appreciated. No need to jump to conclusions, there is a good precedent.




That is too easy for them, and not very helpful if you have to buy a printer, paper, and color cartridge. It's a lot of job. And in paper form it is non durable. We want the real stuff, I'll pay for it, but not PDF only, please!


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## mach1.9pants (Feb 23, 2008)

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> Well, WotC already made a full set of cards for the Bo9S Maneuvers as a PDF on their website, so I imagine that they will do at least that for the new Powers.



Ohh, didn't know that. Any chance of a bit of linkage, please?
Edit: found it. Shouldn't have looked for web enhancements on DnDI but on the WotC old site. What a mess!


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## Fallen Seraph (Feb 23, 2008)

MaelStorm said:
			
		

> That is too easy for them, and not very helpful if you have to buy a printer, paper, and color cartridge. It's a lot of job. And in paper form it is non durable. We want the real stuff, I'll pay for it, but not PDF only, please!




Buy card-stock tis quite nice for such things. I would prefer printing out free ones on card stock over buying. 

Perhaps they could also, through the online book versions have selectable monsters. So if the PDFs are really good and interactive you could select the monster stat box with all its stats and abilities/powers and it will come up separately to be printed out on its own. That way you could have all your monsters nicely sorted together, and can simply pull out the monster card when it is needed.


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## WhatGravitas (Feb 23, 2008)

Fallen Seraph said:
			
		

> Perhaps they could also, through the online book versions have selectable monsters. So if the PDFs are really good and interactive you could select the monster stat box with all its stats and abilities/powers and it will come up separately to be printed out on its own. That way you could have all your monsters nicely sorted together, and can simply pull out the monster card when it is needed.



If functions like this are in the DDI, I'll really like the DDI.

If you provide customizable .pdfs for that, including "personal print permission" for Kinko's and Co., I'll get a DDI ASAP.

Cheers, LT.


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## Meowzebub (Feb 24, 2008)

Double Post


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## MaelStorm (Feb 24, 2008)

Fallen Seraph said:
			
		

> Buy card-stock tis quite nice for such things. I would prefer printing out free ones on card stock over buying.
> 
> Perhaps they could also, through the online book versions have selectable monsters. So if the PDFs are really good and interactive you could select the monster stat box with all its stats and abilities/powers and it will come up separately to be printed out on its own. That way you could have all your monsters nicely sorted together, and can simply pull out the monster card when it is needed.




Hmmm, very convincing. It's work, but as they say: no pain, no gain. Ok, I'm sold.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 24, 2008)

But be wary - if you get too many hand-outs, cards and stuff on your table, things will get as complicated as using the rulebook in the first place.


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## Fallen Seraph (Feb 24, 2008)

Yes, but if you got them nice and orderly it can make things a lot easier. I picture it like, you got your campaign written out, and each encounter you have the cards there in a little slip-case that you can then take out put on the table behind your DM screen and put back when done. 

That is a ton easier then having to scrounge through your books looking for the monster, especially helpful when you don't have the best memory.


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## Zaruthustran (Feb 24, 2008)

Yes, yes, a 1,000 x yes. Quality, glossy cards would be terrific.

I play a jedi in Star Wars Saga, and even the printed power cards (a free pdf download) are a great accessory. It's so convenient to have everything right there in front of you; no need to flip through books or try to copy everything into the limited space on a character sheet.


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## Mortellan (Feb 24, 2008)

Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> I play a jedi in Star Wars Saga, and even the printed power cards (a free pdf download) are a great accessory. It's so convenient to have everything right there in front of you; no need to flip through books or try to copy everything into the limited space on a character sheet.




Convenience is good yes, but the concept is still bringing the game halfway to something resembling CCG's if you don't need to occasionally flip through your books or write notes on a character sheet anymore. Just call me one of those stodgy gamers.


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## WhatGravitas (Feb 24, 2008)

Mortellan said:
			
		

> Convenience is good yes, but the concept is still bringing the game halfway to something resembling CCG's if you don't need to occasionally flip through your books or write notes on a character sheet anymore.



You say it like it's a bad thing.

Cheers, LT.


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## The Little Raven (Feb 24, 2008)

Mortellan said:
			
		

> Convenience is good yes, but the concept is still bringing the game halfway to something resembling CCG's if you don't need to occasionally flip through your books or write notes on a character sheet anymore. Just call me one of those stodgy gamers.




You're stodgy!

I don't care what form game aids take, as long as they serve their intended purpose.


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## Ashardalon (Feb 24, 2008)

So, something like this?

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Should be helpful.


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## Crashy75 (Feb 24, 2008)

Ashardalon said:
			
		

> So, something like this?
> 
> [sblock]
> 
> ...



YES!  Assuming the blank spots are reserved for art.  One of the most useful things in the bo9s was the maneuver cards.  I could see this type of thing in the ddi.  I would pay for that.


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## Firevalkyrie (Feb 24, 2008)

MaelStorm said:
			
		

> That is too easy for them, and not very helpful if you have to buy a printer, paper, and color cartridge. It's a lot of job. And in paper form it is non durable. We want the real stuff, I'll pay for it, but not PDF only, please!



Cardstock is ten bucks for 500 8x11 sheets.


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## Voss (Feb 24, 2008)

$2 will get you a pack of index cards and a pen.

Anyway, for me, if I really need a reference, I'll just type them up on a sheet and tic off encounter and daily powers as they get used.


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## MaelStorm (Feb 24, 2008)

Firevalkyrie said:
			
		

> Cardstock is ten bucks for 500 8x11 sheets.




Thank you, I'm going to check their website.


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## Betote (Feb 24, 2008)

When I found the Glory of Writing Stuff on Index Cards, I never went back. If WotC made pretty colorful cards, I'd be in


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## Kunimatyu (Feb 24, 2008)

Ashardalon said:
			
		

> So, something like this?
> 
> [sblock]
> 
> ...




Decent, but switching the style to landscape and losing the giant image will a) make them look different than Magic cards and b) make them easier to read.


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## WhatGravitas (Feb 24, 2008)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Decent, but switching the style to landscape and losing the giant image will a) make them look different than Magic cards and b) make them easier to read.



And you don't really need a card for non-use activated static abilities or quasi-static, like the Artful Dodger or (at least IMO) Sneak Attack.

Cheers, LT.


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## Knight Otu (Feb 24, 2008)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Decent, but switching the style to landscape and losing the giant image will a) make them look different than Magic cards and b) make them easier to read.



Portrait format might be easier to distinguish when a power is used (turned sideways), I think, but it's true that they're easier to read.
[sblock]
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[/sblock]



			
				Lord Tirian said:
			
		

> And you don't really need a card for non-use activated static abilities or quasi-static, like the Artful Dodger or (at least IMO) Sneak Attack.
> 
> Cheers, LT.



Probably not, but I wanted to see how they'd look.


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## Cadfan (Feb 25, 2008)

I'll be creating cards for myself either way.

There's no need for cards for your basic attacks.  I'll be putting them all on one sheet of paper, maybe the character sheet if it fits.  I make my own character sheets anyways.  I don't see a reason to use cards per se if the ability doesn't get used up, and if its always available (if you can know 10 at will abilities, but only use 3 per day, then they need cards, but not otherwise).

But for per encounter and per day abilities, cards would be very useful.  I'll print them on different backgrounds based on whether they're per encounter or per day.


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## Incenjucar (Feb 25, 2008)

If nothing else, it'll be a great tool for getting CCG players involved.

If they're leery about playing, just hand them a deck.


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## Hussar (Feb 25, 2008)

Hasn't Paizo been cranking out cards for 3.5 for about a year or two now?  Their Gear Mastery line (if that's the right name) is pretty much exactly what you're talking about, only for magic items.

And, considering they mentioned the now infamous suggestion of quest cards, I can see them going with this too.


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## Charwoman Gene (Feb 25, 2008)

Mortellan said:
			
		

> Just call me one of those stodgy gamers.




I'd call you someone who didn't pay attention during the 2nd Edition era.  Wizard Spell Cards, Priest Spell Cards, Psionic Power Cards.

1-2 years BEFORE MtG was even invented.


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## Hejdun (Feb 25, 2008)

You know what I think would be pure gold?  And would be relatively simple to boot?

A Handy Card Generator.  A drag-and-drop program with pre-made slots to fit a template of a page.  There is a handy, searchable database with all sorts of things on it that would be good to have, like spells, powers, effects, really anything that you'd constantly be referencing.  You find one you like, you drop it into a slot.  When you're done, you print out your paper with whichever cards you dropped in.

See, the problem that I found with the Bo9S sheets was that you either had to mess around with them to print only the ones you wanted, or you had to print out like 10x more than you needed.  So figure out a program that will let you choose which ones you print out, and you'd be set.


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## DanChops (Feb 25, 2008)

I got a lot of mileage out of The Other Game Company's spell cards for my wizard in my last 3.5 game.  I am 100% sold on the utility of cards as a game aid.

However, I don't know if I'd spend any money on them, even if it were only a nominal fee.  As mentioned, $2 and an afternoon gives me what I need just as well, with the added benefit of customizing them how ever I like.  (For example, my 3.5 wizard was a Conjuration Specialist, so I colored the margin of all the Conjuration spells blue.  Similarly, I imagine I would color-code the at-will, per-encounter, and daily power cards for a 4E character.)


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## Orius (Feb 25, 2008)

Absolutely amazing.  No one has posted this yet. 

I wouldn't care if WotC released cards like the old 2e spell cards and so on.  I never used them, index cards were always good enough for me, but it's something both DMs and players can use.  As long it's not some collectible crap, that's ok.  

Thing is, a single deck for stuff in the initial PHB/DMG/MM is good, but how are they going to handle later releases and splats?  Maybe have decks or "boosters" for each new book, or maybe a compilation of new stuff at the end of the year?


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## I'm A Banana (Feb 25, 2008)

I'm actually pretty strongly behind this idea. I like the idea of selecting your power from a 'deck' of powers and laying it down in front of you as a constant reminder of what you've done and what you can do.

*On the Collectible Angle*: I could see it working, IF and ONLY IF the rules text/power wasn't the collectible thing. 

Like, there would be the standard Fireball card. It has a picture of a fireball blowing up. Yay!

Then there would be the Rare Fireball card. It's a foil card with unique artwork, or an unusual color scheme, or something else that makes it somehow "special" as a card. 

The rules remain the same, the only thing that changes is the layout/format/picture/presentation. So it's not that Fireballs are rare, it's that randomly one of the cards is rare, and it's a super-deluxe version of the 'normal' card of it's type (though it has exactly the same information on it). 

The moment I'm buying random boosters of new spells I won't be too enthused with it, but a slight collectible element isn't too bad of an idea.


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## Ruin Explorer (Feb 25, 2008)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Now that we know most of a class's options are contained within its powers, I'd like to see Wizards make decks of cards for each class with each core power present. Expansion books (like Martial Power) would have associated decks as well.
> 
> I don't want D&D to turn into a full-fledged card game, but being able to put my powers in front of me on the battlemat, and then "tap" or turn face-down per-encounter or per-day powers would be really nice.




There is absolutely no possibility that Wizards are not already aware of this angle. _None_. Just sayin'.

PS - Collectible cards for abilities? In the sense that abilities had varying values? That's one thing that would finally cause me to outright reject D&D and cast it into the pit of despair. Randomized cards similarly.


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## WhatGravitas (Feb 25, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> *On the Collectible Angle*: I could see it working, IF and ONLY IF the rules text/power wasn't the collectible thing.



If it's random, it'll backfire badly. See Paizo's Item Packs. The first packs were random boosters, now they're 54-card packs with non-random content.

Dungeon Tiles are also non-random (also a play aid) - a randomized play aid simply doesn't work, especially something like cards.

If they'd be a stand-alone game, like DDM, you could get away with being collectible - DDM also has the bonus that it's a physical product where the physicality (i.e. sculpted pieces) is the focus. But for cards, printed cardstock?

It only works for Magic, because there's an attached game with massive support from Wizards, including prize money, which is the reason why usually only very old or new Magic cards are actually worth a lot.

But for a mere _game aid_? Non-random - just look at the Item Packs.

Cheers, LT.


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## I'm A Banana (Feb 25, 2008)

> If it's random, it'll backfire badly. See Paizo's Item Packs. The first packs were random boosters, now they're 54-card packs with non-random content.




You read the post, right?

The one where I said that the rules information shouldn't be random, but that the design, color, quality, artwork, etc. could be?

So is this you agreeing with me?


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## Ruin Explorer (Feb 25, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> You read the post, right?
> 
> The one where I said that the rules information shouldn't be random, but that the design, color, quality, artwork, etc. could be?
> 
> So is this you agreeing with me?




I don't think he is, actually. Your suggestion, with all due respect, doesn't make any sense with non-random content.

I mean, on the one hand, we assume that when you buy the game-aid, you get everything you're looking for. If that's not the case, then we're talking about randomized sets, which as proven with the Paizo example, are poor sellers, because they don't cater to actual needs of actual players.

The flipside of that is that, as, when a player buys this thing, they get everything they need, then ALL you are doing with "varied artwork, quality and colours" is simultaneously increasing your manufacturing costs whilst potentially annoying players, but probably not to the point where they will buy another ENTIRE set of the things they need, just to get the POSSIBILITY of having a fireball card with a red border and a prettier picture on it.


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## jodyjohnson (Feb 25, 2008)

Orius said:
			
		

> Thing is, a single deck for stuff in the initial PHB/DMG/MM is good, but how are they going to handle later releases and splats?  Maybe have decks or "boosters" for each new book, or maybe a compilation of new stuff at the end of the year?




This is the main drawback to having cards.  They work best when every supplement has them.  The 2e failed in that they didn't account for all the other sources of spells (Dragon, FR, and the Complete books).

Not only do the PHB I, II, III, etc. need them but every Class splat, every Setting book, DDI content, third party content.

If we use something like this for our game, we need them for everything we use in our game.


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## Mortellan (Feb 26, 2008)

Charwoman Gene said:
			
		

> I'd call you someone who didn't pay attention during the 2nd Edition era.  Wizard Spell Cards, Priest Spell Cards, Psionic Power Cards.
> 
> 1-2 years BEFORE MtG was even invented.



 Oh I remember. Yeash. Those were terrible and hardly convenient IMO. I think mine ended up trashed.


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## Fallen Seraph (Feb 26, 2008)

jodyjohnson said:
			
		

> This is the main drawback to having cards.  They work best when every supplement has them.  The 2e failed in that they didn't account for all the other sources of spells (Dragon, FR, and the Complete books).
> 
> Not only do the PHB I, II, III, etc. need them but every Class splat, every Setting book, DDI content, third party content.
> 
> If we use something like this for our game, we need them for everything we use in our game.




Well this is where the benefit of DDI if done correctly could shine through. Each book you buy and get the online version of, if the PDFs are interactive each power could be clicked on to bring up the printable card version of it.


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## jodyjohnson (Feb 26, 2008)

I don't see WotC doing that for all the 3rd party crunch.

It's one of those good ideas that falls through the cracks inevitably like the Dungeon Supplements.  At some point someone decides their time would be better used elsewhere and the whole thing becomes an almost was.


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## Fallen Seraph (Feb 26, 2008)

Though I imagine if they do push the DDI they will keep that going for the whole course of 4E atleast when it comes to WoTC books. Perhaps if they open it up to 3rd Party as well, the 3rd Party could make their own PDFs with the cards.

Hell, do we even know if 3rd party books are included in DDI?


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## boolean (Feb 26, 2008)

Cadfan said:
			
		

> There's no need for cards for your basic attacks.  I'll be putting them all on one sheet of paper, maybe the character sheet if it fits.  I make my own character sheets anyways.  I don't see a reason to use cards per se if the ability doesn't get used up, and if its always available (if you can know 10 at will abilities, but only use 3 per day, then they need cards, but not otherwise).



I'd still use cards for "At Will" abilities. Sure, you've got them on your character sheet, but having them available as cards as well means you have all your abilities in one place. You're not looking in two different places to see what you can do.

I'd also use different coloured borders for each card based on the type of ability: Green for "At Will", orange for "Per Encounter" (my first instinct was yellow, but orange would probably look better), and red for "Per Day".


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## Xyl (Mar 7, 2008)

Don't forget to make it easy to distinguish standard, move, and minor actions.


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## breschau (Mar 7, 2008)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> Of course---and I agree with you.
> 
> But since this scheme _only _exists in the fertile imaginations of forum posters, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.




Psst. You forget that the poster that brought this idea up on the forum has the same type of mind as Those That Shall Not Be Named (i.e. a gamer mentality).

I'm all over 4th when it ships. Buying a PHB set of power cards would be cool. I sure as hell don't want "rarity" in play though. And I have to agree that if it becomes another collectible, I'm out.


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## Kzach (Mar 7, 2008)

What would be really nice is if the PDF's available on DDI are formatted in a way that makes it easy to print out on cardstock and cut out for use in the game.


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## CinnamonPixie (Mar 24, 2008)

Devyn said:
			
		

> The idea of class power decks (for wizards and other classes) seems a perfect fit for how WotC is developing the future of D&D.  I can easily see how limited or rare powers might become even "collectable".  Great marketing possibilities.




This doesn't equate to a good thing for the gamers though. Imagine if your wizard has attained one of these rare powers, do you (as a player) want to have to buy dozens upon dozens (or more) randomly assorted $8 "booster packs" of powers cards until you get the ONE CARD you really want/need - or often just as expensive and just as bad, but generally a lot faster; do you want to have to be forced to pay much higher than the price of the card from a booster or card set to get the "rare" card b/c some price guide marks it as more valuable just because its collectible?! 

I think that's a large part of why D&D Miniatures aren't doing quite so well for the average gamer (not counting the minis gamer, naturally). To get a horde of skeletons (how else do you ever really see skeletons - and various other "en masse" monsters- anyway?) you have to buy them at more than $1.00 a piece (b/c they're in an older, no longer produced, set) or buy several "boosters" of the set(s) they were released in - often at much higher than originally marked prices b/c they're no longer made - and they're tagged as "collectibles" so they limit the numbers of them made and jack the price up. This HURTS gamers that just want to use them for their D&D games - as they don't give a hoot about collecting them as collectibles. A nice tagged "unlimited release" of all the most common things (and even some of the less common ones - if anything miniatures companies have proven that the more variety in figures you have for players and GM's to choose from to represent characters, monsters, NPC',s etc the better!- then D&D minis players and collectors would have their limited series and be happy and RPG table-top gamers could get what they want cheaply and still line the ridiculously wealthy pockets of the folks at WotC and Hasbro and everyone would be happy. 

But to suggest that you'd WANT a limited or "rare" card to represent your character's powers is silly... It'd take the strongest (and IMO the ONLY real) tangible advantage/benefit of the cards in the first place - the convenience of them. If they are hard or overly expensive to get due to some "rare collectible" status they're no longer convenient and no longer just a simple add-on for the player -they're in investment into a collectible aside from their game that's pseudo-related at best.


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## HP Dreadnought (Mar 24, 2008)

CinnamonPixie said:
			
		

> I think that's a large part of why D&D Miniatures aren't doing quite so well for the average gamer (not counting the minis gamer, naturally). To get a horde of skeletons (how else do you ever really see skeletons - and various other "en masse" monsters- anyway?) you have to buy them at more than $1.00 a piece (b/c they're in an older, no longer produced, set) or buy several "boosters" of the set(s) they were released in - often at much higher than originally marked prices b/c they're no longer made -




I don't disagree that Wizards would help out gamers by releasing non-random sets of miniatures for roleplaying use.  I do want to point out that even under the current distribution method, they are a wonderful opportunity for many gamers.  

Most unpainted, metal miniatures will run you $4 - $5.  Big ones can go up to $30.00, some even as high as $50 or so for the really big dragons (although even these aren't as big as the colossal red).  You have to assemble and paint them yourself, which many people don't like to do.

In comparison, the ability to buy pre-painted D&D miniatures for a couple dollars each is a steal of a deal.

Reaper Miniatures has realized there is a market for roleplaying oriented plastics, and has started releasing their own line to meet that need.  The releases are fairly slow, but the miniature quality is decent, they are non-random, you get exactly what you want.  So there is another option out there, especially as Reaper begins to expand the line.

Personally, my group uses metal and always has.  My wife is an amazing painter and really enjoys doing it.


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## eleran (Mar 24, 2008)

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> Don't worry. They're so busy simultaneously turning it into an anime, a videogame, a wargame, an action movie, Exalted, Rifts and making it all about the rollplaying instead of the roleplaying that they have very little time left.




Oh good God, if they go Rifts on us, I am outty!!  LOL

worst.game mechanics.ever.


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## D.Shaffer (Mar 25, 2008)

I've always been a fan of UFS's card designs, actually. It makes it very easy to read the cards and their costs/stats with just a simple fanning of your hand, either to the left or right.
(Sample card HERE )

Has anyone tried making a card design more along those aspects?
My 'perfect' powers card would have a symbol for 'At Will/Encounter/Per Day' in the upper left, the name of the power on the left edge oriented vertically, the TYPE of power below that on the left. (Ranged, Melee, Utility, whatever may apply)  Deck COLOR would tell you what class it belonged to (In case multiple decks get mixed together, it's easier to sort them out) with an additional class symbol in the upper right just in case you needed the reminder.  Keywords would be listed above the actual text.


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## Ambush (Jun 10, 2008)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Portrait format might be easier to distinguish when a power is used (turned sideways), I think, but it's true that they're easier to read.
> [sblock]
> 
> 
> ...



How are you creating these?  Is this with the Magic Set Editor program or something else?  Regardless, what are the chances that you can release your format such that I can use it?  By Tuesday night.  For my first 4e session.     Please?

Edit:  Nevermind.  Went back to the sourceforge page and found the templates.  Love.  Lovelovelovelove.  Thank you from the bottom of my black, cold heart.


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## Lurker37 (Jun 10, 2008)

It looks like WoTC are waaaay ahead of us.



			
				DDI said:
			
		

> The D&D Character Builder allows you to fill out a character record sheet *as well as select and create power reference cards* for your D&D character. You can print them out for home game use and update them online. The character sheet *and power cards* make it easy to keep track of all of your character"s vital game statistics and abilities.




Or rather, they would have been if they'd met the release date. *Sigh*

I don't see them spending money on developing a product they eventually intend to offer for free to DDI subscribers. Subscribers wouldn't buy it and it would give non-subscribers less reason to subscribe.


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## Tervin (Jun 10, 2008)

I have a complete Power deck for all classes - or at least PDFs for them. 

This post has the files needed to do the job. Check that whole thread  for more links and templates.

Going from Magic Set Editor to PDFs was a pain, and my files ended up too big to upload, otherwise I would of course share them directly.


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## KingCrab (Jun 10, 2008)

*Condition Cards for 3.x*

I very much enjoyed the condition cards that someone (sorry EN dude but I forgot who) made and posted here on EN World.  My friend printed them in color and laminated them for me, and they've come in very handy.  Maybe someone here on EN World will do that for 4e powers as well.  

That said, having WotC sell packs of power cards isn't a bad thing as long as the decks you buy contain one of each power for a class and there's no random element to it.


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## KingCrab (Jun 10, 2008)

HP Dreadnought said:
			
		

> I don't disagree that Wizards would help out gamers by releasing non-random sets of miniatures for roleplaying use.  I do want to point out that even under the current distribution method, they are a wonderful opportunity for many gamers.




They are indeed.  I don't miss the old days of having to paint.  However, I would still spend a whole lot more money on them if I could buy exactly what I want in the stores (instead of buying exactly what I want when it shows up on e-bay the way I want it.)


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## Craith (Jun 10, 2008)

I just made myself some cards in Open Office Calc, at the moment they look nearly like the powers printed in the book. I made 2 sheets, one as in the book, one personalised (1d8 + 5 instead of 1[W] + Strength modifier).


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## Tervin (Jun 10, 2008)

KingCrab said:
			
		

> Maybe someone here on EN World will do that for 4e powers as well.




Why not read the post just above yours and check the links?


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## essenbee (Jun 10, 2008)

Tervin said:
			
		

> I have a complete Power deck for all classes - or at least PDFs for them.
> 
> This post has the files needed to do the job. Check that whole thread  for more links and templates.
> 
> Going from Magic Set Editor to PDFs was a pain, and my files ended up too big to upload, otherwise I would of course share them directly.



MSE fails to load the set, complaining about a missing "D&D.mse-game" file. Could you please provide this file?


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## Tervin (Jun 10, 2008)

essenbee said:
			
		

> MSE fails to load the set, complaining about a missing "D&D.mse-game" file. Could you please provide this file?




That folder is in the mse-template-Ander.rar that is attached to the post. Make sure to place the template with the other templates in the data folder.


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## essenbee (Jun 10, 2008)

Tervin said:
			
		

> That folder is in the mse-template-Ander.rar that is attached to the post. Make sure to place the template with the other templates in the data folder.



Yeah, thanks, figured it out eventually (Doh!). Cheers for the reply.


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## mach1.9pants (Jun 10, 2008)

Tervin said:
			
		

> I have a complete Power deck for all classes - or at least PDFs for them.
> 
> This post has the files needed to do the job. Check that whole thread  for more links and templates.
> 
> Going from Magic Set Editor to PDFs was a pain, and my files ended up too big to upload, otherwise I would of course share them directly.



Awesome, thanks!


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## Tervin (Jun 10, 2008)

essenbee said:
			
		

> Yeah, thanks, figured it out eventually (Doh!). Cheers for the reply.




I will not tell anyone how much time it took me to get that to work.  And don't thank me too much, I am only the linker, and have not done any of the real work creating those cards.

A few tips to those why try this and want to make PDFs: 
Get a virtual PDF printer of some sort. They tend to be freeware and easy to find (links in that thread for example). With that template Landscape printer setting is better than Portrait (9 cards per page instead of 8). The MSE program create huge batch files for printing it seems, so it can be hard to make one huge PDF with all of the cards. I gave up on that and made one file per class, plus one with the extras - doing it like that still took quite a while.

By the way, having tried 4th Edition with power cards I don't think I want to do without them. And I might very well make power cards for my spellcasters in 3.x as well - it is just so much handier...


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## Silverblade The Ench (Jun 10, 2008)

you could use Photo paper card, 4x6 inch or so


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## Horacio (Jun 10, 2008)

Tervin said:
			
		

> I have a complete Power deck for all classes - or at least PDFs for them.
> 
> This post has the files needed to do the job. Check that whole thread  for more links and templates.
> 
> Going from Magic Set Editor to PDFs was a pain, and my files ended up too big to upload, otherwise I would of course share them directly.




I want to say you a big thanks !

Last Saturday, after having read once the PHB, I decided that if I was going to game D&D4 I needed a quick reference mechanism for all those powers, ideally cards. 

So I came to EN World and I saw that thread, and your cards. And it was just what I looked for. 

So thanks


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## Tervin (Jun 10, 2008)

Horacio said:
			
		

> I want to say you a big thanks !
> 
> /---/
> 
> ...




NP. Especially as they aren't my cards. Ander00 did all the work, I just thought too many people had missed it so I made a link.


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## Ander00 (Jun 10, 2008)

I'm glad that people find my cards useful. I was originally only planning to make whatever I needed for myself as I went along, so it's good to see the additional work was not in vain .


cheers


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## essenbee (Jun 10, 2008)

Ander00 said:
			
		

> I'm glad that people find my cards useful. I was originally only planning to make whatever I needed for myself as I went along, so it's good to see the additional work was not in vain .
> 
> 
> cheers



How do I print the card backs for this set please? I have MSE writing the card fronts to a PDF file, but cannot see where I get to do the same for the card backs...


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## Ander00 (Jun 10, 2008)

essenbee said:
			
		

> How do I print the card backs for this set please? I have MSE writing the card fronts to a PDF file, but cannot see where I get to do the same for the card backs...



That'd be because there are no card backs, really. If you want to make some, you could replace any of the card images you do not feel is needed (like cardempty.png or any of the item styles you probably aren't using) with an image of appropriate dimensions, make a few blank cards with that background image and print those out (or write them to a pdf). I'm not going to spend a lot of time designing a back, especially without having seen the GSL (you'd probably want the D&D logo on there, I suppose).
If you want, you can use this. Otherwise, any other image will do.


cheers


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## Bolongo (Jun 10, 2008)

The only thing I would want card backs to say is "Encounter" or "Daily", so that if I flip a used power, I'll know when to flip it back up.

But I think I can let the players pencil that in by hand on their cards. Give 'em something to do.


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## Nine Hands (Jun 10, 2008)

I made a custom set of "power" cards for my Star Wars campaign, they cover both Jedi powers and starship maneuvers.  

I won't purchase a set of cards from WotC, since I can not only make my own, I can also adjust the text on the cards to use hexes instead of squares (my #1 house rule).


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## Ander00 (Jun 10, 2008)

Bolongo said:
			
		

> The only thing I would want card backs to say is "Encounter" or "Daily", so that if I flip a used power, I'll know when to flip it back up.



If you're going to have backs for the cards at all, that is a good idea. So something like this (yes, you won't normally flip your at-wills, it's just there for the sake of completeness). Of course, if you are actually printing double-sided, you'll have to see about lining them up correctly.


cheers


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## Nine Hands (Jun 10, 2008)

Devyn said:
			
		

> The idea of class power decks (for wizards and other classes) seems a perfect fit for how WotC is developing the future of D&D.  I can easily see how limited or rare powers might become even "collectable".  Great marketing possibilities.




Please...they are a book keeping tool and that is all.  D&D is not going to be turned into a CCG because WotC puts out power cards.  If that were true, then D&D is already a CCG and has been since 2nd Edition.  I have three packs of spell/psionic cards, which detailed every spell for wizards, clerics and psionicists.  

None of this stuff is new folks.


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## Bolongo (Jun 10, 2008)

Ander00 said:
			
		

> Of course, if you are actually printing double-sided, you'll have to see about lining them up correctly.



I think it will be easier to print the sides separately, on normal paper, and put them in clear plastic card sleeves.


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## Ander00 (Jun 10, 2008)

Hence the if . Personally, I find it easiest to just not bother with the backs of the cards at all, but to each their own.


cheers


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