# Which animation style would you rather see in a D&D cartoon?



## Klaus (Jan 11, 2005)

DC Animated (Justice League/Batman/Superman)
DC Pseudo-Anime (Teen Titans)
Serious Anime (Records of Lodoss War)
Comic Anime (InuYasha)
Action Pseudo-Anime (Jackie Chan Adventures/The Batman)
Action Traditional (He-Man & The Masters of the Universe)
Simpsons (D'oh!)   

Speak up!


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## The Serge (Jan 11, 2005)

This is a good one, Klaus.

I'd go for any except the comic anime, the action traditional, and Simpsons (a joke, I presume).

The style isn't the issue so much as the flow of the movement.  If you notice with the DC stuff, the art is extremely stylized, but the animation is often seamless and flows well.  They look like they're really moving.  However, I know that a lot of people aren't partial to that sort of thing.  I would place almost anything from Tartavosky (I think that's the spelling), like _Samauri Jack_ or _Star Wars: The Clone Wars_ in this arena.

I steered away from action traditional primarily because it's been my experience that when there's an attempt to capture anatomical and physiological accuracy, the quality of the animation suffers and/or is inconsistent from episode to episode.  This was the case with the original _X-Men_ cartoon.  If the standard was maintained, I could go for it.

Finally, I noticed that you didn't include Disney-style animation... Although one could argue that there are different styles within a larger group.  If I had to pick, I'd go with the angular elements presented in _Sleeping Beauty_ and, to a lesser degree, in _The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Aladdin, _ or _Pocohantas_.  I despised the direction Disney went with _Hercules_ (particularly the story).


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## Psychic Warrior (Jan 11, 2005)

Hmm - tough choice!  I like most of the styles you have mentioned up there.  For D&D though I really think the comic anime style of Inu Yasha would suit it best.  Watching a lot of that style has made me realize that it is ideal to display both massive monsters, exciting battle scenes and human drama (see the Inu Yasha movie Affections Touching Across Time for gut wrenching human drama).


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## Henry (Jan 11, 2005)

Whichever style DOESN'T have people with disproportionately bugging eyes, facial features that change proportions beyond human norms on human beings, people without special powers elongating their limbs, defying gravity by gesticulating limbs in mid-air, and having eyes the size of pie plates.

Also, make sure that in NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM, can the term "chibi" be attached to any character. 

If it avoids those hurdles, I'd watch it. If it had any of those elements, I'd stay away like a plague carrier.


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## The_Universe (Jan 11, 2005)

DC animated or action-traditional, out of the original choices.  

However, I will say that the Disney-style exemplified by Sleeping Beauty/Aladdin (a little angular, but not completely stylized) would also be good.  

I could also accept something in the Samurai Jack/Clone Wars style, though it's definitely a third choice.  It pulls a great deal from anime in terms of action, but there's still less background-rushes-character-stands-still-and-screams kind of silliness that has made me loathe every piece of anime I have ever seen.  That's not to say that there's no good anime out there...but I've never been able to get past that part of it.


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## Umbran (Jan 11, 2005)

The Serge said:
			
		

> Finally, I noticed that you didn't include Disney-style animation... Although one could argue that there are different styles within a larger group.




Hm. Anyone here ever seen _Gargoyles_?  Wonderful cartoon, and I think it has a brand of Disney-animation that would work quite well, seeing as it has already been used to represent fantasy characters and (IMHO) passed muster.


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## Ranger REG (Jan 11, 2005)

Like _SD Gundam._ 

Personally, if live-action is not an option, I prefer _Final Fantasy_ CG animation.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jan 11, 2005)

Traditional animation.  To be honest I like some anime but I don't like it unless it is serious without the faces getting all crazy when they get mad and stuff like that.   And I don't associate anime with D&D.  I'd probably skip it if it was an anime style.


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## mmadsen (Jan 11, 2005)

From the list provided, I'd definitely choose *DC Animated (Justice League/Batman/Superman)* -- but I'd also vote for animation in the style of _Samurai Jack_, _The Clone Wars_, or Disney's _Gargoyles_.


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## Richards (Jan 12, 2005)

How about _South Park_ style?   

Johnathan


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## Chain Lightning (Jan 12, 2005)

I would actually like to see a D&D animation done fairly straight (seriously). Not sure what realm i'd want to see it done it, but I'd like to see it done straight. Not action/comedy or kid friendly ... 


I love the old Disney style a lot, but I'd rather not see it again. Its been done y'know? Even the new school Disney/Feature Animation American style (Treasure Planet, Hunchback of Notre Dame, Sinbad {yes, its Dreamworks, but its still same style basically}) I enjoy this style . but I'd like to see something new.

And while I appreciate the work and artistry that goes into such CG films as "Final Fantasy: Spirits Within" & "Polar Express", I don't understand the appeal. I mean, what's the point of spending that much money to make it look realistic? Why not just film it live-action at that point? I like CG animated worlds, but not when its trying to be super-realistic. Pixar and their works is fine. But I wouldn't want that for D&D either.

I know many generalize anime with one big brushstroke, but it does have many styles within it too. I do agree, that D&D shouldn't be the common anime we see....the big eyes, small mouth kind. Oh, and about realistic human figures? Most anime studios do it well on a consistent basis. I think people get hung up on the big eyes so much that they don't notice that the figures the big eyed heads are on have realistic human proportions. Most of the inconsistant attempts at realistic human figures comes from tv episodic American shows that don't give much time/money for over seas studios to do it nicely all the time. So that's why some episodes look ok...and some don't.  I like the Japanese OVA style...where they have more control of the animators (because most of the time their inhouse) and they seem to know their limitations and how much time it takes to do what.

I'd like to see a darker/realistic anime style for D&D. What do I mean by "darker/realistic anime style"? Something along the line of (but doesn't have to have same character design, but same approach as) "Blood: The Last Vampire", "Vampire Hunter D:Bloodlust" (yes, the girls had big exaggerated eyes, but the other male characters were fairly realistic looking with just enough stylization...and the look of the world was nice), "Demon City Shinjuku" , or like "Magnetic Rose" (first story in the anime "Memories").

If the same art team that did "Magnetic Rose" did a 6 part OVA (Original Video Animation - direct video) Dungeons & Dragons project....I'd love it! Of course, I don't know if many of you have seen "Memories" or not....probably not many, and so I don't think this reference will help convey what I'm talking about.


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## Dark Jezter (Jan 12, 2005)

Something like Dreamworks' _The Prince of Egypt, the Road to El Dorado,_ and _Sinbad: Legend of the Seven Seas_ would be fine with me.  I also wouldn't mind an animation style similar to the one from _Batman: The Animated Series._

Please no D&D anime; the last thing we need is anime snobs telling us that we aren't really watching it as it was meant to be watched unless we watch it in the Japanese language with subtitles.


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## RangerWickett (Jan 12, 2005)

Inuyasha style would be alright, but I would love a trendy, genre-crossing fantasy cartoon like Cowboy Bebop that combines fantasy story elements with blues and rock music.


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## Enkhidu (Jan 12, 2005)

You know what would kick? If the whole thing were done by an art team led by Wayne Reyolds.


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## Hypersmurf (Jan 12, 2005)

Claymation!

With a secondary vote for Supermarionation.

-Hyp.


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## Ranger REG (Jan 12, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Traditional animation.  To be honest I like some anime but I don't like it unless it is serious without the faces getting all crazy when they get mad and stuff like that.   And I don't associate anime with D&D.  I'd probably skip it if it was an anime style.



Not all anime have weird symbols like a huge teardrop or a cross on one's forehead. _Robotech_ had none of those. But Japanese fans like that and that style is being imported here. It's a hit among children, I guess, like that annoying purple dinosaur.


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## Anime Kidd (Jan 12, 2005)

While I love anime, I don't think it would be suited to D&D well. I'd choose Gargoyles or the new He-Man style if anything (but with less muscles), something with anime-like qualities but it isn't obviously. To me it really depends on how the story is treated. Would it just be something in between the action? Or would it actually be important?


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## Pants (Jan 12, 2005)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Inuyasha style would be alright, but I would love a trendy, genre-crossing fantasy cartoon like Cowboy Bebop that combines fantasy story elements with blues and rock music.



I'd love to have a D&D cartoon animated by Sunrise (Bebop, the Gundams) or BONES (RahXephon, Wolf's Rain). Those two studios do some amazing animation and they usually get some pretty good budgets to work with.


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## Jamdin (Jan 12, 2005)

I would not mind seeing a D&D animated series using the Bruce Timmor the Disney's Gargoyales styles.


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## WayneLigon (Jan 12, 2005)

Either a serious anime style (Like, say, _Gundam_), or a style similar to the one used in _X-Men: Evolution._ I like the Timm style for _JLA/Batman_, but I don't think it would work for fantasy all that well. The style used in _Sinbad_ was fantastic as well; that suited fantasy very well.


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## jester47 (Jan 12, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Something like Dreamworks' _The Prince of Egypt, the Road to El Dorado,_ and _Sinbad: Legend of the Seven Seas_ would be fine with me.  I also wouldn't mind an animation style similar to the one from _Batman: The Animated Series._
> 
> Please no D&D anime; the last thing we need is anime snobs telling us that we aren't really watching it as it was meant to be watched unless we watch it in the Japanese language with subtitles.




Too late, its called "Record of Lodoss War" and "Legend of Crystania."  The latter of which started totally awesome but then shot into left field.  

Aaron.


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## Teflon Billy (Jan 12, 2005)

What do you call the style used in *the Iron Giant*?

I liked that. It looked pretty realistic, but--being animated--they could do plenty of fantastical elemtns at will.

If it was done in an anime style, I doubt I'd tune in (though I said the same about *Teen Titans* and I like that just fine).


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## jester47 (Jan 12, 2005)

Well if you talk about He-Man 2002 and not the 1980's He-Man, then I would say that is the way to do it.  I mean really, the last D&D cartoon was done in the action style.  

Aaron.


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## jester47 (Jan 12, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> What do you call the style used in *the Iron Giant*?
> 
> I liked that. It looked pretty realistic, but--being animated--they could do plenty of fantastical elements at will.




You mean like 50ft giant robots from outer space?

A.


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## jester47 (Jan 12, 2005)

I was just looking at the Dragon's Lair video game.  

Don Bluth would do an excellent D&D cartoon. 

Secret of NIMH
Anistasia (it had a really cool lich)
Dragon's Lair
Titan A.E.

And there is a lot of animator cross over between Bluth's shop and the people that did:

Iron Giant.


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## Laurel (Jan 12, 2005)

I'd choose to stay away from Anime for the movie.  When I think ols school (He-Man) type styles the actual 80's version of Dungeon's and Dragons comes to mind.  Too kiddie type.

I'd like to see dreamworks, and from there just about any of thier more recent variations.  The only other one I would add would be Final Fantasy (the movie) type, but not sure how that would work for a DnD movie. (This may be one of the options above, but I put as it's own or cg)

If I had to go with a disney- the gargoyle cartoon is a good example.  Only if they have the TNG cast do the voices though


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## Truth Seeker (Jan 12, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Hm. Anyone here ever seen _Gargoyles_? Wonderful cartoon, and I think it has a brand of Disney-animation that would work quite well, seeing as it has already been used to represent fantasy characters and (IMHO) passed muster.




That would get my VOTE, greatly!!


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## Arnwyn (Jan 12, 2005)

Serious anime (Lodoss, Cowboy Bebop, Macross) would be my preference.


			
				jester47 said:
			
		

> Don Bluth would do an excellent D&D cartoon.



I absolutely agree with you here.


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## Desdichado (Jan 12, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Something like Dreamworks' _The Prince of Egypt, the Road to El Dorado,_ and _Sinbad: Legend of the Seven Seas_ would be fine with me.



I was going to say along the lines of Disney's _Treasure Planet_ but the three you name are really pretty much the same style too, I suppose.  That's a spendy option, unfortunately, so don't hold your breath.

Now, the style used in the recent CGI Barbie animated movies, on the other hand...

<sigh>  Sorry, 6-yo daughter.  They're very fairytale oriented, though.  I occasionally, when one of them is on and I happen to be walking by, think, "hey, I could use that in a D&D game..."


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## The_Universe (Jan 12, 2005)

Laurel said:
			
		

> If I had to go with a disney- the gargoyle cartoon is a good example. Only if they have the TNG cast do the voices though



 That reminds me!  Has anyone besides me ever wanted to run a game based on Tailspin (another action-y disney cartoon that reuses the cast of the Jungle Book) except with people instead of animals?  Maybe it's just me....


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## Klaus (Jan 12, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> That reminds me!  Has anyone besides me ever wanted to run a game based on Tailspin (another action-y disney cartoon that reuses the cast of the Jungle Book) except with people instead of animals?  Maybe it's just me....



 Cape Suzette does make an incredible setting.


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## Darth Shoju (Jan 12, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> That reminds me! Has anyone besides me ever wanted to run a game based on Tailspin (another action-y disney cartoon that reuses the cast of the Jungle Book) except with people instead of animals? Maybe it's just me....




 Yeah that might be cool. I'd probably bring in elements from the Xbox game _Crimson Skies_ though. Probably just some of the locations to fill out the campaign world and some of the planes to give a few more options.


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## Orius (Jan 12, 2005)

I'd say whatever the style used for the D&D cartoon back in the 80's would work.  Just get rid of the stupid unicorn.

Absolutely no anime whatsoever.  There's too many anime influences in D&D now!    

(ducks)


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## The_Universe (Jan 12, 2005)

Darth Shoju said:
			
		

> Yeah that might be cool. I'd probably bring in elements from the Xbox game _Crimson Skies_ though. Probably just some of the locations to fill out the campaign world and some of the planes to give a few more options.



 That'd probably help.  I've never really been able to figure out _where_ Cape Suzette was, assuming that the Tailspin world was roughly similar to earth...It had a weird Shangrila kind of feel, as well as feeling like a pseudo new york (as many animated cities do)


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## Darth Shoju (Jan 12, 2005)

Heh my favourite elements were the island bar run by the Orangutang and Shier Kahn (sp?).

 To keep it back on topic, I'd vote for a Gargoyles/Aladdin (the tv show) style first. After that I'd probably go for either an X-men Evolution or JLA: Unlimited  style. If it was going anime, I'd prefer it to be more realistic in the style of Patlabor 2 (not that I mind the more stylistic anime styles, I'd just rather not have it for a D&D cartoon.)


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## dreaded_beast (Jan 12, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> That reminds me!  Has anyone besides me ever wanted to run a game based on Tailspin (another action-y disney cartoon that reuses the cast of the Jungle Book) except with people instead of animals?  Maybe it's just me....




I've always thought the old Disney cartoons had great DnD/adventure elements in them, for campaign ideas, background, stories, etc.:

1. Gummi Bears
2. Tailspin
3. Duck Tales
4. Rescue Rangers
5. Hercules
6. Gargoyles
7. Darkwing Duck

Anyway, to go back on topic, I love anime and would llove to see an animated DND series done in that fashion, but barring that, I would just love to see a new DND animated series period.


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## Dark Jezter (Jan 12, 2005)

jester47 said:
			
		

> Too late, its called "Record of Lodoss War" and "Legend of Crystania."  The latter of which started totally awesome but then shot into left field.
> 
> Aaron.



 I'm fully aware of _Record of Lodoss War_.  In fact, it's one of the only anime series that I liked enough to purchase.  RoLW is indeed very D&D-ish, which makes sense; it was inspired by the creator's D&D campaign he ran while in high school.

If somebody were actually going to do a D&D animated series, though, I'd prefer to see something like Dreamworks animation.


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## nimisgod (Jan 12, 2005)

Darkly Serious with a dash of comedy and with brilliant music.
...I could see it now. it would be episodic like Cowboy Bebop and Samurai Champloo with the musical talents of Yoko Kanno turned grimm (Vision of Escaflowne, Cowboy Bebop).


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## kirinke (Jan 12, 2005)

Hmm.
Disney style animation would be good. The Disney style of animation tends to draw different ethnic races fairly well, unlike anime which tends to exaggerate racial differences to the point of absurdity. For example Mulan and Aladdin. They also draw their villains excellently well.


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## Chain Lightning (Jan 13, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Please no D&D anime; the last thing we need is anime snobs telling us that we aren't really watching it as it was meant to be watched unless we watch it in the Japanese language with subtitles.




Uh, I think when some of us said Anime style...we meant the art. I assume the hypothetical meant "who do we get to animate it"....not "who do we get to animate it and do the voices". I would assume it would be done in English.

Oh...and speaking of the anime snobs...yes, there are plenty of them out there. I've met quite a few. I don't like them because they give people like me a bad name too. Because I am a fan of anime as well. 

But in defense of some of their behavior, let me say this: you have to understand where they're coming from. They feel that the thing they enjoy is great. And they want to let other people in on it too. They don't want anything to spoil the impression someone new gets when they watch this thing they keep recommending. One of the things they're scared of, is you watching a badly dubbed show. And you walking back to them saying, "Dude, I don't know what you're talking about...that show was pretty lame".  Then now instead of having another fan to talk to about it and share in its joy, you got some guy who thinks its lame. 

Now, its the same with me. If I know the dub is good...I won't say anything. But if I know the dub is bad (like Giant Robo for instance)...I'd say, "you should probably watch it with the subtitles if you can...the dub is bad". There are many times I've seen an original and compared it to the dubbed and the meaning of important key dramatic lines are totally different. It hurts the film. I mean, what if there's a bad dub of "Lord of the Rings" in German and your German friend wants to watch it? And you're all like , "You gotta watch this, its awesome" . . . and he comes back and says, "Yah dude it sucks ...what's up with lines like 'Fire guy will not pass me'?"

Also, about the whole "all anime sucks" notion. I know anime isn't for everyone...heck, even I don't like most of it. But there's some good stuff in there too. Its like any medium. Even movies from the U.S. have lots of stinkers too. How about fantasy books? How much of what's on the shelf is total crud? But there's this one series that is absolutely awesome, but you have a friend that won't read because he thinks all fantasy books suck. Its a shame really.


Anyways, back on topic. I voted for a realistic/serious animation style. Whether it be like similiar to anime like "Magnetic Rose" (1st short story from "Memories") or Dreamworks style like "Sinbad". I'll vote for either of those styles.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jan 13, 2005)

What type of animation is _Heavy Metal_ (movie)?  Besides pornimation, I mean.  It had a sort of edgy look that would fit 3E Eberron.

I'd vote action traditional or Disney (Sleeping Beauty dragon fight, anyone?).

Anime?  Blech.


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## Desdichado (Jan 13, 2005)

nimisgod said:
			
		

> Darkly Serious with a dash of comedy and with brilliant music.
> ...I could see it now. it would be episodic like Cowboy Bebop and Samurai Champloo with the musical talents of Yoko Kanno turned grimm (Vision of Escaflowne, Cowboy Bebop).



I'm sorry... was that post in English?  I didn't understand a word of it.


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## Dark Jezter (Jan 13, 2005)

Chain Lightning said:
			
		

> But in defense of some of their behavior, let me say this: you have to understand where they're coming from. They feel that the thing they enjoy is great. And they want to let other people in on it too. They don't want anything to spoil the impression someone new gets when they watch this thing they keep recommending. One of the things they're scared of, is you watching a badly dubbed show. And you walking back to them saying, "Dude, I don't know what you're talking about...that show was pretty lame".  Then now instead of having another fan to talk to about it and share in its joy, you got some guy who thinks its lame.
> 
> Now, its the same with me. If I know the dub is good...I won't say anything. But if I know the dub is bad (like Giant Robo for instance)...I'd say, "you should probably watch it with the subtitles if you can...the dub is bad". There are many times I've seen an original and compared it to the dubbed and the meaning of important key dramatic lines are totally different. It hurts the film. I mean, what if there's a bad dub of "Lord of the Rings" in German and your German friend wants to watch it? And you're all like , "You gotta watch this, its awesome" . . . and he comes back and says, "Yah dude it sucks ...what's up with lines like 'Fire guy will not pass me'?"




Really?  Most of the dub-haters I've seen aren't anti-dub because they want others to enjoy anime.  Most dub-haters I've known are anti-dub because they feel that if anime becomes accessable to more people, they'll lose their "non-mainstream elite status."  They honestly believe that watching subtitled anime makes them more enlightened and "in-the-know" than people who watch dubs.  It's one of the main reasons why I left anime fandom a while back and now only seldom watch anime.

What's really funny is that most of the people who prefer subs over dubs can't speak any Japanese beyond phrases like "chibi!" and "kawaii!  Neko neko!".  I've witnessed a few amusing occasions where a sub-snob sang high praises about the original Japanese voice acting in an anime series or movie, only to be informed by somebody who actually spoke the language that the voice acting really wasn't very good. 

Anyways, sorry for the threadjack.


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## Blue_Kryptonite (Jan 13, 2005)

Despite Chain Lightning's well-reasoned and articulated pro-Anime stance, I have to side with Dark Jezter and Joshua Dyal. I've given it years worth of chances, and hate it more every time. My Anime-loving have given u[p on me. I simply find it, as a broad genre, disagreeable in all respects. 

My vote, though, is up there in the neighbourhood of the Starship Troopers: Roughnecks CGI TV series. My tastes, though, run screaming form Conan and Elric, and are a lot closer to Hercules and Xena.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jan 13, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Really?  Most of the dub-haters I've seen aren't anti-dub because they want others to enjoy anime.  Most dub-haters I've known are anti-dub because they feel that if anime becomes accessable to more people, they'll lose their "non-mainstream elite status."  They honestly believe that watching subtitled anime makes them more enlightened and "in-the-know" than people who watch dubs.  It's one of the main reasons why I left anime fandom a while back and now only seldom watch anime.
> 
> What's really funny is that most of the people who prefer subs over dubs can't speak any Japanese beyond phrases like "chibi!" and "kawaii!  Neko neko!".  I've witnessed a few amusing occasions where a sub-snob sang high praises about the original Japanese voice acting in an anime series or movie, only to be informed by somebody who actually spoke the language that the voice acting really wasn't very good.
> 
> Anyways, sorry for the threadjack.



 At least you said 'most'. I love subs, but I'm not anti-dub. I don't like to watch dubs generally because I've seen a series already in the Japanesse, and it just feels wrong watching it again when it sounds completely different. I have a basic understand of Japanesse, but really I think the big reason for liking the subs IS that I was exposed to them first. My uncle was in college getting all the bootleg subs back when it was impossible to find a dub in any store and I would watch them with him(ahh, old Macross was my first). When I try to watch dubs of series I've already seen subtitled, I can't help but think of the characters as just sounding wrong. Not that the voice acting is BAD, but the characters just don't sound like I'm used to hearing them. Honestly, it's probably the same for people going from dub to sub.

Though I will admit that I'm probably in a minority in that I'm not anti-dub. Seems you can't like one without hating the other these days. I think its great that people at least have the choice...if only we didn't get all factionalized about things.

[/re-threadjack]

And, on topic, I think a Japanesse style COULD work for a D&D cartoon. Anime looks best in motion, and a D&D show would sure have lots of motion in it. Only problem really would be the stigma against anime these days, and D&D doesn't need that. At the same time, though, I really would prefer to see a more JLA style of animation for it. Or, like others have mentioned, something like the Sinbad movie that came out not too long ago.


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## DonAdam (Jan 13, 2005)

I'd like to see Eberron done in the style of the early Batman animated series.


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## Droogie (Jan 13, 2005)

Dr. Anomalous said:
			
		

> Despite Chain Lightning's well-reasoned and articulated pro-Anime stance, I have to side with Dark Jezter and Joshua Dyal. I've given it years worth of chances, and hate it more every time. My Anime-loving have given u[p on me. I simply find it, as a broad genre, disagreeable in all respects.
> 
> My vote, though, is up there in the neighbourhood of the Starship Troopers: Roughnecks CGI TV series. My tastes, though, run screaming form Conan and Elric, and are a lot closer to Hercules and Xena.




I agree. I'd like to see a CGI animated series, similar to that D&D DVD that came out a couple years ago, albeit with slightly better quality.

Obviously , live-action would be too expensive and the sets would look cheap.
As for straight hand-drawn animation, I'm not really a fan of it, personally. I'd feel like I was 10 years old on a Saturday morning again, and I don't mean that in a good way.

CGI is getting better all the time. The motion capture technology they use today allows for more natural performances from the animated characters, rather than the  jerky 10 (or less) frames per sec. of traditional animation. I  don't claim to be an expert on the subject, but wouldn't CGI be quicker, too? If PC games like Half Life 2 have software that allow digital actors to lip-synch dialog in real-time, wouldn't similar tech make the turn-around time for a single CGI episode shorter than a hand-drawn one? And wouldn't that allow more breathtakingly exciting episodes per season?


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## jester47 (Jan 13, 2005)

rehijack

Anyone remember when Akira was just a cool cartoon from japan?  Man, those were the days.  "CANADA!"  I miss japanimation. 

For me subs and dubs have always been about information.  The subs always seemed to convey more subtle nuances than the dub.  However once the american market developed the dubs started getting good so it hardly matters now.  I mean you get the same thing either way with cowboy bebop and the dub voices fit the characters better IMO.  

Anime?  Naw, its a cartoon, from japan. 


Aaron.


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## jester47 (Jan 13, 2005)

Chain Lightning said:
			
		

> I mean, what if there's a bad dub of "Lord of the Rings" in German and your German friend wants to watch it? And you're all like , "You gotta watch this, its awesome" . . . and he comes back and says, "Yah dude it sucks ...what's up with lines like 'Fire guy will not pass me'?"




Toast Me!

Your going to have to Toast me!

Aaron.


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## James Heard (Jan 13, 2005)

I'm going to go and kick what I'm sure was a joke and claim it- I think that the creators and animators of Southpark would make a kick butt D&D animated series of movies. 

1. They're more likely to have spent lonely nights of high school roleplaying than japanese animators might have.
2. They're more likely to still be roleplaying rather than date, even though they're probably loaded.
3. It would be fun. 

Seriously, Southpark is fun and it still makes sure that "social issues" and such get pushed through even through the satire. Southpark is approachable by younger viewers (even when it's meant for adults), and it's COOL even when it's pretty lame (animated construction paper, how the heck did they sell THAT?).

Think of it as sort of an "Order of the Stick" sort of concept. If D&D looked fun, funny, cool, and not so much a thing filled with deadly serious old dudes talking about cartoons on message boards we'd finally get that new blood into the industry that everyone keeps waxing on about. Sure, we'd be made fun of - but if everyone's in on the joke then who cares?


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## Teflon Billy (Jan 13, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> That reminds me!  Has anyone besides me ever wanted to run a game based on Tailspin (another action-y disney cartoon that reuses the cast of the Jungle Book) except with people instead of animals?  Maybe it's just me....




That setting was lifted whole-cloth from a short lived TV series called *Tales From the Gold Monkey*


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## somekindofjerk (Jan 13, 2005)

'Tom Goes to the Mayor' all the way.
Seriously though, something semi-serious/goofy like Venture Brothers would be cool. That show's style is goofy but the characters who are supposed to be badass manage to look it. No offense to Squeenix or Mainfraime or any other CG studio, but if they do a CG D&D show, it'd be cool (IMHO) if they got the folks over at Blizzard to do (go d/l the World of Warcraft trailer/intro for an example).


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## Nuclear Platypus (Jan 13, 2005)

I'd have to put in a vote for some Chan-tastic animation like from Jackie Chan Adventures and The Batman followed closely by Disney's Gargoyles. However I'm also fond of the animation in the current TMNT cartoon as well as Megas XLR (both sorta anime-ish). There's also the cheesiness of Slayers aka Monty Haul meets powergaming. However if Hayao Miyazaki were to consider a D&D project, I'd definitely watch it.

As for the whole subs vs dubs, it all depends on the voices. Sometimes the originals are great like Tora's original voice actor fit the character better in Ushio and Tora so score one for subs but other times the dubbed voices are perfect like in Cowboy Bebop thus dubs are better.


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## reanjr (Jan 13, 2005)

Klaus said:
			
		

> DC Animated (Justice League/Batman/Superman)
> DC Pseudo-Anime (Teen Titans)
> Serious Anime (Records of Lodoss War)
> Comic Anime (InuYasha)
> ...




Disney style.  Pirates of Dark Water-esque.


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## reanjr (Jan 13, 2005)

jester47 said:
			
		

> Anyone remember when Akira was just a cool cartoon from japan?




No, actually, I don't recall Akira ever being cool...


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jan 13, 2005)

reanjr said:
			
		

> No, actually, I don't recall Akira ever being cool...



 Zing! 

Actually, I don't remember it ever being described as cool. It was always something like 'this will screw with your brain' or something similar. Of course, those were from people who liked it.


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## Desdichado (Jan 13, 2005)

Dr. Anomalous said:
			
		

> Despite Chain Lightning's well-reasoned and articulated pro-Anime stance, I have to side with Dark Jezter and Joshua Dyal. I've given it years worth of chances, and hate it more every time.



Hey, now!  I've been very careful to _not_ say that in this thread.   Although I've said it other times in the past...


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## nimisgod (Jan 13, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I'm sorry... was that post in English?  I didn't understand a word of it.




Ha! More like Engrish. 

Unfortunately, anime doesn't have a lot going for it. Cultural barrier aside, there's a lot of crappy anime that gets imported. I can't stand most anime and "trying to be anime" styles, myself, especially since most of what is shown on primetime TV are the worst examples.

I won't appeal for anime-haters to change their judgement. But I will say that 70%-90% of anime compared to the best of its kind (the top 10%), is like comparing the D&D movie (and other fantasy flops) to the LOTR movies. Most of the medium is freakishly bad, but there are some gems to be seen. 

That said, I'd imagine the animation style would be slightly less important to the content (story style, etc.). But then, that would be a different thread.


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## jester47 (Jan 14, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Zing!
> 
> Actually, I don't remember it ever being described as cool. It was always something like 'this will screw with your brain' or something similar. Of course, those were from people who liked it.




Well, I remember it just being different.  It wasn't anime, it was just some cartoon that had been imported from japan like robotech was.  But it was not made for kids, so it was cool in the respect that where most things encountered before from japan (via Harmony Gold, or battle of the planets, or various other robot shows) were kid safe, this wasn't.  The thing is that there wasn't anything special about it.  In our minds the animators just happened to be Japanese so they drew different.  It was just another cartoon.  The subject matter was cool because it was more real. 

Now days, anime is this "distinct art form" with a bunch of, for a lack of better description, kinda in a weird way racist fans (or at least culturalist).  "If its not really japanese, its not anime."  I know people that won't watch a cartoon if its not really anime.  Now most people don't care, its just a cartoon.  But I'm getting sick of the attitude that "anime" is somthing special and different.  Its not, its just more cartoon's from japan. 

Aaron.


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## Pants (Jan 14, 2005)

nimisgod said:
			
		

> That said, I'd imagine the animation style would be slightly less important to the content (story style, etc.). But then, that would be a different thread.



Well, that's what I'm talking about.  When I say 'anime styled' I'm talking only about the art style, not the actual content, because I really enjoy most anime styled art I've over american styled art.  However, the content of most anime usually irritates the hell out of me and I much prefer the content of many american shows over it. 

There are a few notable exceptions, like Berserk, Hellsing, and Cowboy Bebop which are all pretty devoid of most of the things in anime that are really annoying.  Then there's Samurai Champloo and Trigun which are entertaining to me despite (or because) of the way those styles are utilized.

What am I talking about here?  I don't really know, so to paraphrase, I did not inhale. 

Thank you for your time.


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## Chain Lightning (Jan 14, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Really?  Most of the dub-haters I've seen aren't anti-dub because they want others to enjoy anime.  Most dub-haters I've known are anti-dub because they feel that if anime becomes accessable to more people, they'll lose their "non-mainstream elite status."





Oh okay. 

Yeah, I hate people like that too. I have a friend that was like that with music. He hated to see his special underground band get more recognition and hit top 40. Heh heh.



			
				Dr. Anomalous said:
			
		

> Despite Chain Lightning's well-reasoned and articulated pro-Anime stance, I have to side with Dark Jezter and Joshua Dyal. I've given it years worth of chances, and hate it more every time. My Anime-loving have given u[p on me. I simply find it, as a broad genre, disagreeable in all respects.




Well, its hard to like it over the years because (in my opinion) it has gotten worse/less reliable over the years.    So by trying to 'get into it' ...you're chances of actually turning into a fan become less and less.

But I think the best way to get into anime is to ....well, not feel a need to get into it.

Let me explain. Don't think of anime as anime anymore. Just have a goal. The goal is: I like watching a good animation story. Now, if it comes from the U.S. , France, Korean, or Japan....is beside the point. Just watch what you like. If so happens that the only stuff you like is American...that's cool.  



			
				DonAdam said:
			
		

> I'd like to see Eberron done in the style of the early Batman animated series.




Hmm.....I'm trying to imagine that. Yah...maybe. But truthfully...heh heh.....if a D&D cartoon is made, I'd rather not see it be Eberron. Nothing against Eberron, but I think the worlds of Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms should be up first.



			
				Droogie said:
			
		

> CGI is getting better all the time. The motion capture technology they use today allows for more natural performances from the animated characters, rather than the jerky 10 (or less) frames per sec. of traditional animation. I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, but wouldn't CGI be quicker, too? If PC games like Half Life 2 have software that allow digital actors to lip-synch dialog in real-time, wouldn't similar tech make the turn-around time for a single CGI episode shorter than a hand-drawn one? And wouldn't that allow more breathtakingly exciting episodes per season?




I worked on "Roughnecks: Starship Troopers Chronicles" and Foundation did most of the animation for the show. A company called Mainframe as well. It was very costly and time consuming. But man, those guys and gals worked hard. I think for a straight to video limited series it would be fine. But to do a whole show and keep it consistantly looking good....its a bit of a headache and too expensive. Unless you want it to look kinda cheap ...like "Transformers:Beast Wars" or something.



			
				jester47 said:
			
		

> Toast Me!Your going to have to Toast me!




Heh heh...funny. Speaking of bad dubs....how about bad subtitles? Some of the Hong Kong bundled full season of whatever on DVD get really bad. I was watching "Gundam Seed" and the characters were talking about the "Coordinators"....but instead of the subtitles saying "coordinator" , it would say "saucerman". 

Sweet jeebus.

If a fan is afraid of his friend watching a bad U.S. dub....he's also afraid of his friend watching a Hong Kong subtitled copy too.   



			
				Pants said:
			
		

> When I say 'anime styled' I'm talking only about the art style, not the actual content, because I really enjoy most anime styled art I've over american styled art. However, the content of most anime usually irritates the hell out of me and I much prefer the content of many american shows over it.




Yeah, I don't know what's going on over in Japan...but they shows are getting whackier and whackier. I have to wait a long time between good ones before I see another good one appear somewhere. And most seem to not ever get released in the states. Getting the liscense must be too expensive. I heard they're having trouble negotiating for "Naruto" to be brought over stateside.

But anyways, I know what you mean. I walk into Best Buy or Suncoast and stare at the animation section. I stare....and stare.....and stare......and it all seems to look like brightly colored 13 year old anime girls in skimpy outfits fighting something. Its like the companies that bought the rights to distribute anime here only bought crap like "Burn Up W" and stuff like that. I guess because its cheap to acquire. *Shrug* whatever....

But...as disappointed as I am with the lack of imaginative stuff coming from Japan, I find the U.S. market just as stagnant. In my opinion, I think both the Japanese and the U.S. need to re-do how things get done. It would be great to see the Japanese get some of the sensibilities of U.S. creators, while the U.S. gets some of the Japanese freedom of expression.


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## Ranger REG (Jan 14, 2005)

jester47 said:
			
		

> Now days, anime is this "distinct art form" with a bunch of, for a lack of better description, kinda in a weird way racist fans (or at least culturalist).  "If its not really japanese, its not anime."  I know people that won't watch a cartoon if its not really anime.  Now most people don't care, its just a cartoon.  But I'm getting sick of the attitude that "anime" is somthing special and different.  Its not, its just more cartoon's from japan.



Isn't that like saying a Corvette isn't special, it's just a car from US?

Or a Harley Davison ain't specia, just a moped from US?

Or apple pie isn't special, just desert from US?

Or gansta rap isn't special, just noise from US?

Or the US Flag isn't special, just a piece of drape from US?

Or *jester47* isn't special, he's just a 47th jester from parts unknown?


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## Ranger REG (Jan 14, 2005)

Chain Lightning said:
			
		

> But...as disappointed as I am with the lack of imaginative stuff coming from Japan, I find the U.S. market just as stagnant. In my opinion, I think both the Japanese and the U.S. need to re-do how things get done. It would be great to see the Japanese get some of the sensibilities of U.S. creators, while the U.S. gets some of the Japanese freedom of expression.



Japan have their own audience (which seems to hate intelligent game show like _Who Wants to be a Millionaire?_ but prefers physical game shows that put people in embarrassing situation like getting wading into a sewer pool to find a diamond ring). I mean as intelligent as they are, they don't like common people to flaunt it. Just as our own Hollywood caters to our own US audience, so too Japan caters to their own audience.

It's a lot better for the US to hire anime artists for an American-produced animated movie, rather than take some finished piece from Japan, re-edit and -- heaven forbid -- re-dub with goofy American voice-overs. I mean, it may work for children but not the grownup generation that were raised in the WB/Hanna-Barbera cartoon era.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of dubs. Foreign films, live-action or animated, should be shown in their original formats including languages but with subtitles.


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## D+1 (Jan 15, 2005)

Klaus said:
			
		

> DC Animated (Justice League/Batman/Superman)
> DC Pseudo-Anime (Teen Titans)
> Serious Anime (Records of Lodoss War)
> Comic Anime (InuYasha)
> ...



None of the above - CGI rather than traditional hand-animated styles.  It needs to look as realistic as possible.  Yeah, yeah I hear you.  But, when I PLAY D&D I don't visualize in terms of a particular anime or CARTOON style, I visualize in terms of a genuine reality - and that requires CGI.  For example, a sword should not just be pale gray with a little star animated on it to indicate it's glinting - it needs to be METALLIC.


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## AelyaShade (Jan 15, 2005)

From the choices given by the OP, I'd choose something along the lines of a hybrid Inuyasha/Rurouni Kenshin style of anime.

Outside the box, I'd vote for a Pixar attempt. Barring that, may I also suggest something similar  to Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within.

Time to pop in the old D&D cartoon series. Uni!!!


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## Chain Lightning (Jan 15, 2005)

You see, with those of you who want realism, and thus ...vote for "Final Fantasy:Spirits Within" approach ... I'd say let's just do it live action.

I've noticed several basic camps when it comes how people like their fantasy. One of the basic camps I see a lot is the camp of 'realism'. If its exaggerated or stylized in anyway , its usually frowned upon.  For this camp, I'd suggest not even thinking about animation and rather....to say, you just rather see a butt kicking live action show. Because for me (and I've said it on a previous post), there's no point in animating something to make it look as real as possible. You'd getter a better end result/effect and spend less money if you just filmed in live-action.

But that's me.

Or ...do you guys want exaggerated pseudo-realism? Like the cinemas to Worlds of Warcraft/Warcraft III? Where the people are slightly stylized but the world is "rendered" realistically?


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## Ranger REG (Jan 15, 2005)

What they want is live-action with exaggerated CG and wire-fu effects. But since _LOTR_ they prefer it to be subtle.


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## Dark Jezter (Jan 16, 2005)

Chain Lightning said:
			
		

> Or ...do you guys want exaggerated pseudo-realism? Like the cinemas to Worlds of Warcraft/Warcraft III? Where the people are slightly stylized but the world is "rendered" realistically?




As cool as a full-length movie created by Blizzard's cinematics team would be, it will probably never happen.  The guys at Blizzard have stated that it would be far too expensive and time-consuming to make a full-length feature film with CG as high quality as that found in the Warcraft III/World of Warcraft cinematics.  It takes them several months (sometimes a year or more) to create a 5-minute long cinematic sequence for a game, so a 90-minute long (or longer) movie would be out of the question.

Still, it's nice to dream.


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## Ranger REG (Jan 16, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> As cool as a full-length movie created by Blizzard's cinematics team would be, it will probably never happen.  The guys at Blizzard have stated that it would be far too expensive and time-consuming to make a full-length feature film with CG as high quality as that found in the Warcraft III/World of Warcraft cinematics.  It takes them several months (sometimes a year or more) to create a 5-minute long cinematic sequence for a game, so a 90-minute long (or longer) movie would be out of the question.
> 
> Still, it's nice to dream.



If anything, they looked at what Squaresoft have done with _Final Fantasy: The Spirit Within,_ especially when they have already shut down their one and only CG film studio. Lesson learned.

Nah, they got to contract someone else who is in such a film business, like say Pixar.


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## rbingham2000 (Jan 30, 2005)

My vote is for a serious, realistically-drawn anime style. Something like Cowboy Bebop, City Hunter, or some of the grittier Samurai and Ninja stuff. Of course, this being an American audience, the gore will have to be kept to a modest minimum and nudity kept strictly off-limits if they want it to be accessible to the major networks.


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## Krieg (Jan 30, 2005)

jester47 said:
			
		

> I was just looking at the Dragon's Lair video game.
> 
> Don Bluth would do an excellent D&D cartoon.
> 
> ...




That would be my first choice as well.



			
				Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Or apple pie isn't special, just desert from US?




Would you say that is more Mojave or Sonoran?


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## Thanee (Jan 30, 2005)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Simpsons (D'oh!)




Go, Simpsons! 

Bye
Thanee


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## fba827 (Jan 30, 2005)

My choices would be:
* DC Animated (Justice League/Batman/Superman)
* Action Traditional (He-Man & The Masters of the Universe)

Or, as also suggested, Disney's Gargoyles style...  

(basically, I have yet to see an anime or pseudo anime style that I can actually stomache for very long... that's not to say there aren't good ones out there, just, I have yet to see one)


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## WmRAllen67 (Jan 30, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Or gansta rap isn't special, just noise from US?




Actually, that statement is true...  

On topic, I think I'd go for the Batman/ Superman style...


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## Dragonblade (Jan 30, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> That reminds me!  Has anyone besides me ever wanted to run a game based on Tailspin (another action-y disney cartoon that reuses the cast of the Jungle Book) except with people instead of animals?  Maybe it's just me....




"In Zembria, your shot, then hung. We like to be thorough."


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## MoogleEmpMog (Jan 30, 2005)

I would go with Don Bluth first.  He would indeed do an awesome D&D cartoon.

Second would be to have the artists for Warcraft do a hand-drawn animated series.  I love their art to death, unlike their CG work - it's so colorful and energetic.

Barring that, though, I would cast my vote for serious/dark anime.  Honestly, I haven't seen many animes I've liked, but in terms of the art style I'd prefer it to most other animation types.  Also, I think the hobby would benefit greatly from targeting anime/Japanese game fans rather than those who prefer the dungeon crawling PC game market.

The absolute last thing I'd want to see is an American game company do a CGI version.  With all due respect to Blizzard, they still make their stuff bloody stiff, and every other US game maker is far worse.

I wouldn't mind a company like Squenix doing it, provided they actually did it in some way like their actual games.

Square lost their collective shirts on the Spirits Within because they ditched everything that made their games excellent - yes, a 60-hour game can have a more complicated plot and generally better characters than a 2-hour movie, but that's no excuse to pace plot and character development the same as in a game.  Which is to say, roughly 1/30th of a decent plot or characterization


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## Mad Mac (Jan 31, 2005)

Hmmmm...I'm not sure the examples always match up with the options, honestly. I wouldn't consider Inuyasha "Comic Anime", for instance, since I don't recall it making much use of the usual assortment of anime visual gags, like huge sweat drops, deformed expressions, ect.

  Inuyasha is a show that goes from drama to screwball comedy at the drop of a hat, but pretty much plays it straight, visually. Teen Titans is a much better example of "Comic Anime" despite being American. If anything about the show stands out on the list, it's the big "Special attacks" the show uses, which would lend itself to a "High-Magic" D&D cartoon reasonably well.

  In general, I'd vote for a simpler, stylized, "Anime-ish" art style for this theoritical D&D cartoon. Detailed characters tend to drag down animation, as other people have already mentioned. It would inflate the budget, at the very least. Anime style art also lends itself to characterization and expressing moods fairly well. It's much harder to do well with a more american, detailed style, which again can lead to a seeming stiffness.

  And seriously people, "Anime-style art" is just that. It doesn't imply anything beyound that, so relax a bit, eh?   

 I'd be more concerned about frame-rate, story-telling, voice acting, choreography, ect. 

(Huge Pet Peeve) Over-use of the ole' "Flying Side-Kick" Manuever. I swear this move is used about 69 times during the average Jackie Chan or Ninja Turtles episode. An easily countered move that relies on a running start should not be anyones preferred fighting technique...

  Anyway, while I'm a sucker for Japanese Art (Although I only really follow a handful of shows) I like American stuff too. News and cartoons are pretty much the only T.V. I watch, actually.

  Batman was a great show on a lot of levels. Again, the simpler, stylized art was a big factor in this, as was the freedom to pursue darker storylines. I wasn't actually a huge fan of the art style though.

  Justice League looks pretty good, but I don't watch it much. (Not a DC fan)

  Gargoyles was a great show for it's time. I wouldn't object to the style, although going back and watching the show, it doesn't seem as good as I remembered. (Animation in general hasn't aged very well, though)

  The new Turtles show is very slick-looking, but the fighting choreography bugs me very, very often. Then again, most episodes have a near-brilliant bit of action, it just isn't consistant.

  Not a huge fan of the Jackie Chan art, but generally have to give a thumbs up for the choreography, since it borrows from the man himself.


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## Dragonblade (Feb 1, 2005)

MoogleEmpMog said:
			
		

> Square lost their collective shirts on the Spirits Within because they ditched everything that made their games excellent - yes, a 60-hour game can have a more complicated plot and generally better characters than a 2-hour movie, but that's no excuse to pace plot and character development the same as in a game.  Which is to say, roughly 1/30th of a decent plot or characterization




Aside from the graphics, the Final Fantasy movie just plain sucked. Not only was it completely cliche (The evil power hungry military/establishment makes everything worse by resorting to *gasp* violence!) but just plain bizarre and stupid (alien ghosts, anyone?) And of course, we can solve all our problems with love and understanding, right? Gag me.

The potential for CG movie success in America or worldwide is there. Just look at Pixar. The secret is to make movies with intelligence and wit, not to try and spoon feed the audience pseudo-political drivel dressed up as bad science-fiction.


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## Chaldfont (Feb 1, 2005)

Instead of going with an existing style, I'd like to see something new and fresh. I really like the stylized animation of Samurai Jack and the Clone Wars, but you could take that same minimalism (how many episodes of Samurai Jack spend less time in dialogue than commercial breaks--I love that!) but make it less cartoony.

Who here has played the PC game Thief: The Dark Project? I loved the cutscenes and think that style (somewhere between a comic book and traditional animation) would be great for hard edged fantasy. This style would lend itself greatly for distribution over the web.


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## Mercule (Feb 1, 2005)

I'll agree with the idea of Dreamworks or recent Disney (Aladin).

I'd be willing to watch anything that didn't involve anime, though.  Throw me in with the lot who just don't get it (or however you want to group us).


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## ragboy (Feb 1, 2005)

jester47 said:
			
		

> I was just looking at the Dragon's Lair video game.
> 
> Don Bluth would do an excellent D&D cartoon.
> 
> ...




You forgot that dinosaur movie... The Land Before Time. It was a kids movie and the main characters were cartoony, but overall, it had a great look.


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## Mad Mac (Feb 1, 2005)

The Land Before Time was hand-painted, as I recall. Very nice looking. I can't take the movie even slightly seriously though, since the franchise has become a *God* of worthless, low-budget, straight to video releases. Last I saw, there was *10!* Land Before Time movies in circulation, and only one is worth seeing.   

  You know what would help this thread? Links to various styles of art. I'm personally finding that my memory of what various 'toons actually looked like is fuzzy. I'd love to see images from some of those older shows that were canceled eons ago. (Be glad to do my part, but it's gonna take time to dig up examples...)


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