# Witcher (Netflix)



## Argyle King (Dec 20, 2021)

I was surprised to find that there's not a thread for this. 

Season 2 of the show is now available.

I haven't yet started season 2. I'm working my way through Season 1 again before starting Season 2.

Something I noticed while re-watching Season 1 is that there are a lot of dialogue hints to help piece together when/where various things take place. 

I think the show does a good job of having subtle details matter without making it obvious that something does actually matter. In my opinion, that makes things feel more natural when they unfold. It also makes watching a season more than once enjoyable because I'm noticing things I hadn't noticed the first time. 

I'm looking forward to starting season 2 and seeing how the story goes.


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## MarkB (Dec 20, 2021)

I enjoyed season 1 a lot, and didn't much mind the multiple timelines.

Season 2 is excellent, really upping their game and telling a more focused story.

And they did manage to to have a very on-point dig at the fans and themselves in one scene.


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## Morrus (Dec 20, 2021)

Is s2 multiple timelines too?


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## MarkB (Dec 20, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Is s2 multiple timelines too?



No.


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## Ryujin (Dec 20, 2021)

MarkB said:


> I enjoyed season 1 a lot, and didn't much mind the multiple timelines.
> 
> Season 2 is excellent, really upping their game and telling a more focused story.
> 
> And they did manage to to have a very on-point dig at the fans and themselves in one scene.



Just in the middle of episode 6 and I must have missed the dig. Then again I don't play the games.


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## Stalker0 (Dec 20, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> Just in the middle of episode 6 and I must have missed the dig. Then again I don't play the games.



There's a scene where Jaskier is talking to someone who keeps digging into his music. Aka a critic digging into the writer's choices


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## Ryujin (Dec 20, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> There's a scene where Jaskier is talking to someone who keeps digging into his music. Aka a critic digging into the writer's choices



OK, yeah. That I saw


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## payn (Dec 20, 2021)

Season 2 monsters have been pretty cool so far.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 20, 2021)

I watched it, and was very well entertained.
It's been some time since I read the books, so I don't really remember all the details. I know that some book fans really seem to hate the changes, but the show story really stands well on its own and I feel stays pretty true to the world and broad character strokes, maintaing all the stuff that I enjoyed from the games and the novels. 
And this season really gives us a chance to get closer to the characters. Ciri really grows as a character compared to Season 1 and becomes quite likeable.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 21, 2021)

Season 2 was good. 3 good fantasy shows on atm.


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## AtomicPope (Dec 21, 2021)

The music in season 2 is different.  Can't say I like the change in composers.


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## John R Davis (Dec 21, 2021)

Found it all a bit dull tbh. Maybe I was full of hype after really enjoying S1 but it felt like they took 8 episodes to do what could be achieved in 3 or 4. Yennifer especially seemed particularly pointless and just waiting for her one cool thing to happen in the finale.
IMO


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## Nilbog (Dec 21, 2021)

I really enjoyed it, played the games but never read the books.  I found the show entertaining and it walked the balance of the political intrigue and action very well.  It was as clever in its use of politics as GoTs, but I don't think it needs to be.  Also a massive shout out to the actress who played Ciri, thought she did an amazing job


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## Zardnaar (Dec 21, 2021)

Nilbog said:


> I really enjoyed it, played the games but never read the books.  I found the show entertaining and it walked the balance of the political intrigue and action very well.  It was as clever in its use of politics as GoTs, but I don't think it needs to be.  Also a massive shout out to the actress who played Ciri, thought she did an amazing job




 Yeah Ciri was cool season 2. She was alright in one but that's not on the actor but the writers.


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## DeviousQuail (Dec 21, 2021)

The main three characters were great. Ciri really stepped up. Really liked her more compared to S1. Geralt was as fun as ever. Yennefer's story this time around was pretty much the opposite trajectory of the events of S1. It was good and I like her character but I enjoyed her S1 arc more.

Action wise the bruxa and Eskeleshy fights were my favorites of the season. My least favorite was the dino/basilisk fight at Kaer Morhen. They felt the least real to me of the many monsters we saw.

The inclusion of Voleth Meir and her machinations was great. I haven't read the books or played the games so I don't know how long time fans feel about it but I thought everything about her nailed the Baba Yaga witchy vibe perfectly. 

I enjoyed Jaskier but his hair was awful. If there was anything I'd change about this season it's that. The meta recap of S1 he does with the boat guy was a fun scene though. It's good that the writers can take the S1 criticisms in stride. 

I was not impressed by the other Witchers. I don't expect them all to be Geralt clones but they felt like a bunch of puds by comparison. I think we needed to see them fight or train to get a sense of them. They all jest with Ciri about her training but seeing them do it too would have been nice. The only time we do see them really fight half of them get their heads chewed off so I'm left wondering. 

As Djikstra said there are a lot of irons in the fire for S3. We've got next steps of the main gang, hedgehog turned evil emperor reveal (neat foreshadow in the illusion of Cintra for him), elven infanticide revenge fallout, fire fucker and his boss (assuming the secret boss is someone we've already met my money is on Vilgefortz), the brotherhood hunting Yen, Redania's move on Cintra, the wild hunt, Tissaia and Vilgefortz trouble in paradise, the trouble with monoliths (assuming Voleth Meir's leaving doesn't end their importance), and more.

I hope we don't have a long wait for S3 and that Netflix behaves itself and doesn't cancel this series before it reaches its conclusion.


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## Sacrosanct (Dec 21, 2021)

I admit I liked season 1 better, and am not a fan of Yennifer.  Haven't read the books, but never liked her in the games, or in this series.  As far as the saddest part of the series..



Spoiler: spoiler



When Roach died.  I know he gives that name to all horses, but I have a soft spot for animals.


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## Stalker0 (Dec 21, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> She was alright in one but that's not on the actor but the writers.



I feel like there is a sentiment that the writer's somehow "did Ciri dirty" in season 1....but I feel like that was just the purpose of the plot.

In S1, ciri is a plot device. She is constantly chased, constantly pushed towards something with little ability to make her own choices. Now in S2, that has started to change. Ciri is starting to take control, make choices, try and prepare for the fate that is awaiting her. Ciri has awakened into a full protagonist of the story as opposed to a pawn pushed around on the board.

I feel like all of that was very intentional on the writer's part.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Dec 21, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> I feel like there is a sentiment that the writer's somehow "did Ciri dirty" in season 1....but I feel like that was just the purpose of the plot.
> 
> In S1, ciri is a plot device. She is constantly chased, constantly pushed towards something with little ability to make her own choices. Now in S2, that has started to change. Ciri is starting to take control, make choices, try and prepare for the fate that is awaiting her. Ciri has awakened into a full protagonist of the story as opposed to a pawn pushed around on the board.
> 
> I feel like all of that was very intentional on the writer's part.



And it actually makes for a fairly compelling story where the character transitions from basically being a living McGuffin to their own independent, functioning character. Her story in Season 2 is stronger because of her role in the first season, IMO.


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## Argyle King (Dec 24, 2021)

I started season 2 this morning. 

So far, I'm highly enjoying it. 

It's a small detail, but (in episode 3) I laughed at the callback to the Witcher joke from Season 1's Djinn episode.

Triss now has reddish hair, a detail which will likely satisfy fans of the source material. 

I feel that the show does a really good job of pacing. Things that need to be quick are; things which are better with a slow burn are given time to develop.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 26, 2021)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> And it actually makes for a fairly compelling story where the character transitions from basically being a living McGuffin to their own independent, functioning character. Her story in Season 2 is stronger because of her role in the first season, IMO.



I agree. She stops being merely chased and trying to survive to finally formulating her own goals and taking steps towards achieving them. That is very satisfactory.

I also liked Yennefer's story, too. Having to go by on her wits rather than her magic is a new challenge for her that she masters. I know some people dislike that she contemplates selling out Ciri, but the point she considers it is when Ciri is a no one to her - Yennefer is never what you can consider a "nice" person. But even before she realizes that she can't do that to Ciri, she is constantly resisting Voleth Meir promises and temptations, where the other two sorceresses dived in with both feet, basically (and paid an ugly price). Yennefer refuses to let others dictate her fate and stays true to herself.
And one of my favorite moments is probably when she deals with Rience.


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## Mercurius (Dec 26, 2021)

I tried watching the 1st episode of season two last night and had no memory of what was going on. This tells me what I already knew: that, for me, the Witcher is thoroughly forgettable. I really found the first season meh. Or to put it on the "fantasy show spectrum":

Great: Game of Thrones
Good: Wheel of Time
Meh: Witcher
Bad: Shannara


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## Argyle King (Dec 27, 2021)

Mercurius said:


> I tried watching the 1st episode of season two last night and had no memory of what was going on. This tells me what I already knew: that, for me, the Witcher is thoroughly forgettable. I really found the first season meh. Or to put it on the "fantasy show spectrum":
> 
> Great: Game of Thrones
> Good: Wheel of Time
> ...




Fair enough. 

Different people have different tastes.

For me, I'm struggling to get through the first few episodes of Wheel of Time. In contrast, I found the first season of Witcher to be even more enjoyable during a second watching. 

I haven't watched Shannara, so I can't comment on that. 

I agree with Game of Thrones. (Though, I also agree with others that the last few seasons showed a noticeable drop in quality.)

This was mentioned earlier in this thread, but I laughed at the Witcher (season 2) episode in which Jaskier (the bard) gets into a debate about his songs with a sailor. It's the show making fun of itself a little bit while also poking fun at people on message boards which criticized season 1.


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## Ryujin (Dec 27, 2021)

Argyle King said:


> I haven't watched Shannara, so I can't comment on that.



I tend to think of it as "Elfstone: 90210."


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## DeviousQuail (Dec 27, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> I tend to think of it as "Elfstone: 90210."



I seem to hold Shannara in higher regard than most but this is the truest thing anyone has ever said about it.


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## TheSword (Dec 27, 2021)

See I think the Witcher is brilliantly done, because it nails the three things that Wheel if Time struggles with.

1. All the main characters are likeable… Geralt, Yen, Ciri, Vesimir, Jaskier, Triss, Yarpen. Even a lot of the antagonists are likeable - Fringilla, Cahir, Tissaia, Stregobor, The elf king, etc. Even though it’s a  grim and gritty world, it doesn’t mean everyone whose in it is an ass.

2. It’s funny. Genuinely funny. Jaskier is hilarious, And Geralts One liners are perfectly timed. This breaks up the tension and stops the show disappearing up its own ass as Wheel of Time does sometimes. What would the Lord of the Rings films be without Merry and Pippin lightening things. humour is needed.

3. The overall story is relatively simple. The short story framework of the original books fits a series well. So while they weave the series wide elements through it, you do get satisfying conclusions to events as they happen. They can get into the myth and world building by foreshadowing and revealing tidbits of information that build on each other. World building doesn’t just come out of no-where then disappear like Wheel of Time.

NB. Also Jaskier’s takedown of the guard fan who has some feedback on his songs is brilliant. Delivered so well!


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Dec 27, 2021)

TheSword said:


> See I think the Witcher is brilliantly done, because it nails the three things that Wheel if Time struggles with.
> 
> 1. All the main characters are likeable… Geralt, Yen, Ciri, Vesimir, Jaskier, Triss, Yarpen. Even a lot of the antagonists are likeable - Fringilla, Cahir, Tussaia, Stregobor, The elf king, etc. Even though it’s a  grim and gritty world, it doesn’t mean everyone whose in it is an ass.
> 
> ...



Yeah, my main complaint is the confusing Time-Skip in Season 1. Otherwise, I liked it and the new season a lot. I do think the Second Season is better, but I still liked the 1st season and its episodic format of short stories that it took from the books. It worked really well, IMO.


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## TheSword (Dec 27, 2021)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Yeah, my main complaint is the confusing Time-Skip in Season 1. Otherwise, I liked it and the new season a lot. I do think the Second Season is better, but I still liked the 1st season and its episodic format of short stories that it took from the books. It worked really well, IMO.



I agree. Season 1 really rewards a second watch through which is nice as you pick up on much more stuff. Particularly as I didn’t know the books beforehand.


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## Stalker0 (Dec 27, 2021)

TheSword said:


> See I think the Witcher is brilliantly done, because it nails the three things that Wheel if Time struggles with.
> 
> 1. All the main characters are likeable… Geralt, Yen, Ciri, Vesimir, Jaskier, Triss, Yarpen. Even a lot of the antagonists are likeable - Fringilla, Cahir, Tissaia, Stregobor, The elf king, etc. Even though it’s a  grim and gritty world, it doesn’t mean everyone whose in it is an ass.
> 
> ...



I don't find number 3 too relevant to WOT so far. I get that the story in the books is 14 books long filled with crazy plot, but the plot of the tv show is actually very very simple. 5 chosen ones....one of them is the super chosen one. Got to figure out which one to kill the big bad, or the world ends.

Number 1 and 2 I definately agree with, especially 1. My biggest beef with WOT so far is that the acting is wooden, I don't really feel any chemistry between the characters, hell I just watched the first season and I still have trouble remembering their names. If Rosamund Pike wasn't there to take it up a notch every so often, it would be really bland at times.

Witcher on the other hands, the acting is wonderful. Yenn and Geralt have great chemistry together, and now so do Geralt and Ciri. there are some great moments between Jaskier and Yennifer in this season, and Vessemer brings a great presence.


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## payn (Dec 28, 2021)

Season 1 of Witcher for me was meh, but season 2 moved it up to good. WoT is firmly in the meh category, but maybe it can get to good with a better paced season with better character development next time around.


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## BrokenTwin (Dec 28, 2021)

Season 2 definitely feels stronger than season 1. Which I think is mostly due to the groundwork and necessary backstory stuff has all be laid at this point, so the show can just focus on giving us a strong story.

Also, Jaskier is great.


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## wicked cool (Jan 2, 2022)

Question on season 2-burnt face guy and the guy with owl.are they working with each other and are they working for someone else. How closely does this follow the books


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## Blue (Jan 2, 2022)

Finished watching the second season with my wife.  Quite enjoyed it.  Only complaint was that we went to watch more and realized we reached the end of the season.

It's no spoiler to reiterate what others have said about how much we enjoyed Ciri this season.

It might be a touch of a spoiler, but Lambert is a bit of donkey.

And poor, poor Jaskier - what bet did you lose to have to wear that hairstyle?


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## CapnZapp (Jan 2, 2022)

The "power politics" of the mages are excruciatingly superficial and cliched.

The "dark fairy tale" aspects of the Witcher, on the other hand, are well done. And FINALLY Ciri gets something to do; which combined with her actress finally being allowed to show some grit, means the Ciri portions aren't interminably dull like in Season 1.

So. Yennefers story is much more dull than her "coming of age" arc in S1, but Ciri is much less dull than in S1.

That makes a wash. The show should still have focused on what works, and left the naff power intrigues on the cutting room floor.

What exactly is working then? The best answer is "look at the games", but if you haven't played them, a reductive answer like "The Witcher and the monster of the week" will have to do.

3 stars. 

Zapp

PS. Minus points for the showrunner's BS commentary about "nudity isn't required for the story". Nudity wasn't "required" in S1 either, but it helped pull in viewers, didn't it? 

If I got a dollar for every Netflix show that starts out feisty and earthy, only to get all high and mighty once success is achieved... I reserve my respect for shows that either decides against adult themes from S1E1, or decides to feature these aspects of life throughout the _entire_ series' run.


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## payn (Jan 2, 2022)

Im ok with Witcher not being reduced to monster of the week. Thats network TV territory.


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## Zaukrie (Jan 2, 2022)

The characters in Witcher are so much better fine than most all of WoT so far!

I liked this season a lot, it is just too short. Give me more!


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## Zaukrie (Jan 2, 2022)

Also, can I root for no nation to win the fights? Because outside the leader of the Witchers, every leader seems bad.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Jan 2, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> Also, can I root for no nation to win the fights? Because outside the leader of the Witchers, every leader seems bad.



And even the leader of the Witchers seems very morally gray. He would give a dangerous mutagen to children in order to turn them into mutants that would result in them forever being cast-offs of society. And that's if they even survive the process. Yes, Witchers are good for protecting the people, but still.


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## pukunui (Jan 2, 2022)

I haven't watched season 2 yet. Does it touch on Vilgefortz's seeming betrayal at the end of season 1 at all? (I haven't read any of the books or played any of the games.)


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## DrunkonDuty (Jan 2, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I haven't watched season 2 yet. Does it touch on Vilgefortz's seeming betrayal at the end of season 1 at all? (I haven't read any of the books or played any of the games.)




Maybe...


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jan 4, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> Also, can I root for no nation to win the fights? Because outside the leader of the Witchers, every leader seems bad.



I think you can. The Witchers - and certainly Geralt -  generally try to stay out of it, but the situation with Ciri makes things more complicated, though.

I think it's really just important to root for Ciri, Geralt or Yennefer. (And typically, that involves rooting for all 3.) But failing that, you can always root for Jaskier.


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## Ryujin (Jan 4, 2022)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I think you can. The Witchers - and certainly Geralt -  generally try to stay out of it, but the situation with Ciri makes things more complicated, though.
> 
> I think it's really just important to root for Ciri, Geralt or Yennefer. (And typically, that involves rooting for all 3.) But failing that, you can always root for Jaskier.



Soooo many people are _never_ going to root for the Bard


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## CapnZapp (Jan 6, 2022)

I honestly think the show is trying to make the Witcher into a much more blandly one-dimensional hero.

By toning down what the games allow you do do, that is have the Witcher make selfish decisions, chase every skirt in sight, and ignore people that doesn't pay well enough, you lose the unique values that make the Witcherverse worth having.

As portrayed in S2, Henry Cavill is essentially playing a fantasy Superman with the same boring lack of flaws.

I cringed when he turned down Triss for example. While I'm sure many viewers like a valorous shining knight hero straight out of a Harlequin romance, the Witcher I know and like would rip off her dress and sex her right then and there; Ciri and Yen just having to become annoyed but ultimately accept him for what he is.

The way S2 is reducing the Witcher to Super-Dad that can do no wrong is just... _rolls eyes_


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## payn (Jan 6, 2022)

I like the reluctant father aspect and the Shakespearean type tragedy of Yen and Geralt's relationship. If you just want to see a wticher go around banging chicks and killing things play the game.


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## Stalker0 (Jan 7, 2022)

payn said:


> I like the reluctant father aspect and the Shakespearean type tragedy of Yen and Geralt's relationship. If you just want to see a wticher go around banging chicks and killing things play the game.



I'm curious which one is more similar to book Geralt, is he a womanizer and drinker (aka like the video game) or more the guardian hero type (aka the tv show)?


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## MNblockhead (Jan 7, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> I'm curious which one is more similar to book Geralt, is he a womanizer and drinker (aka like the video game) or more the guardian hero type (aka the tv show)?



Andrzej Sapkowski has been much more hands off when it comes to what those who license his work do with it. From what I've read and heard about, all he asks is to be kept informed but has never/rarely demanded or requested changes or that a certain direction be followed. 

So you will find inconsistencies and different takes on the characters and lore in the various media. What you read in the books may not track 100% with what you experience in the video games, or what is shown in the TV series. 

Personally, I'm fine with that. I want the games to be consistent from game to game.  I want the TV series to be consistent. Etc.  But I'm fine with the books, games, and TV show having different canon. 

I think that the TV show has done a good job capturing the spirit of the story and the world. I'm especially happy with season two.  I'm fine with the more responsible, paternal Geralt. Perhaps he was different when younger. You see a similar maturation with Vesemir in the animated film The Witcher: Nightmare of the Wolf.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jan 7, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> I'm curious which one is more similar to book Geralt, is he a womanizer and drinker (aka like the video game) or more the guardian hero type (aka the tv show)?



It has been a while since I read the books. I think Geralt is really both. Yennefer is his big love, but there were women before and in-between, I think. Once Ciri enters his life, she really becoems important to him, and he definitely takes the guardian job seriously.

The Witcher game series underplays his guardian hero type perhaps in the first 2 games, particularly since neither Ciri nor Yennefer are part of it. But they also give him amnesia, so it stands to reason he couldn't act on it. 
Witcher 1 has the weird aspect that there is basically a male version of Ciri in the story, but the relationship isn't the same and not worked out as well.
I actually think Witcher 3 did really well in giving us all the sides. Finding and saving Ciri is the primary goal of Geralt in the game, but it's of course a game, so you'll also play lots of gwent, go into brawls, and kill random monsters and bandits.


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## MarkB (Jan 7, 2022)

I really wish I could get into the Witcher games. They're exactly the kind of open-world experience I like, but for some reason I just can't get into the combat system. I own Witcher II and III, and I've tried several times to get into them, but always end up bouncing off after a few hours' play.


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## TheSword (Jan 7, 2022)

CapnZapp said:


> I honestly think the show is trying to make the Witcher into a much more blandly one-dimensional hero.
> 
> By toning down what the games allow you do do, that is have the Witcher make selfish decisions, chase every skirt in sight, and ignore people that doesn't pay well enough, you lose the unique values that make the Witcherverse worth having.
> 
> ...



A computer game might let you play the Witcher how you like to play him. Him not being portrayed in the series that way, but in line with the opposite choices to yours (that maybe I would take), doesnt make him 1 dimensional. It just means he isn’t a sex addled, heartless, thug for hire. 

To be honest I think the constant sex because ‘his mutations’ make him that way, and a mercenary approach to every deal makes him 1D because it suggests he lacks free will or choice, or a commitment to something more than where the next Oren is coming from.


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## MNblockhead (Jan 8, 2022)

MarkB said:


> I really wish I could get into the Witcher games. They're exactly the kind of open-world experience I like, but for some reason I just can't get into the combat system. I own Witcher II and III, and I've tried several times to get into them, but always end up bouncing off after a few hours' play.



I only completed Witcher III and really liked it. For me it was more like an interactive story. I played it on an easier mode, because mastering challenging combat mechanics is not why I play the game.  I enjoy watching my son play God of War or Ghost of Tsushima, but I just get frustrated trying to play those games. When I want to get really tactical, I play turn-based games. 

For me, Witcher III was one of the more immersive games I've played. There was a lot of variety and even taking on monster-hunting contracts never felt grindy to me. I actually cared about the characters and was strongly driven to learn more about the story.  After completing the Witcher III, I tried to play Witcher I and II but neither grabbed me in the same way and I didn't get very far into either of them.


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## pukunui (Jan 8, 2022)

I haven't played any of the Witcher games. By the sound of it, they're not a series that take place in chronological order (like, say, the Dragon Age games)? You don't have to have played the first two in order to understand / enjoy the third?


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## TheSword (Jan 8, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I haven't played any of the Witcher games. By the sound of it, they're not a series that take place in chronological order (like, say, the Dragon Age games)? You don't have to have played the first two in order to understand / enjoy the third?



They are chronological and events from the first games do affect how things play out in the 3rd - Wild Hunt. However the game is very good at introducing characters in their own right. Recurring characters are introduced and established in such a way as to suggest history while still carrying the leg work of characterization in Witcher 3. I never felt like I didn’t understand who Triss Merigold or Dijkstra was.

Attempted to player Witcher 1 and 2 but to be honest they were pretty old by that point and in comparison to 3 I couldn’t get into them. Never felt a loss.


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## MNblockhead (Jan 8, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I haven't played any of the Witcher games. By the sound of it, they're not a series that take place in chronological order (like, say, the Dragon Age games)? You don't have to have played the first two in order to understand / enjoy the third?



I played Witcher III without having played the first two games and without having read (or even heard of) the books and I was able to easy follow the story.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jan 8, 2022)

Each game tells a story that is finished at the end of the game, and the next game starts a new story that is mostly independent of the previous one.
Some characters will return, but they will be properly reintroduced. Having played the previous games or read the novels increase your familiarity with the setting, but you won't need them to understand the game.


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## Argyle King (Jan 9, 2022)

I think seeing Geralt struggle to parent is interesting in so much that he seems to want to correct the mistakes of his parents so as to not watch a child turn out like he did, but then he realizes that taking care of a child comes with tough choices and responsibilities which cannot easily be solved with force or magic.


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## CapnZapp (Jan 9, 2022)

Sure. Just that I didn't come to the Witcherverse for the parenting and relationship advice.

I understand many of you and perhaps many female viewers love the idea of such a dangerous man yet someone that is dependable and reliable; but to me, the core idea of the Witcher is that ultimately, he's the alpha wolf.

He's just not domesticable. 

He will end up doing as he pleases, with everybody else just having to take it or leave it. And, to be clear, they (meaning chiefly Yen and Triss here seeing Ciri is underage) ultimately do take it.

Obviously that's just my 2 cents.


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## MarkB (Jan 9, 2022)

CapnZapp said:


> Sure. Just that I didn't come to the Witcherverse for the parenting and relationship advice.
> 
> I understand many of you and perhaps many female viewers love the idea of such a dangerous man yet someone that is dependable and reliable; but to me, the core idea of the Witcher is that ultimately, he's the alpha wolf.
> 
> ...



Yeah, but that's only one way that the game can be played. For many people, what you just described isn't the Witcher they know from the game either. And they can't simultaneously portray him in every way that he can possibly be portrayed in the game, so they have to pick one.


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## Blue (Jan 10, 2022)

CapnZapp said:


> By toning down what the games allow you do do, that is have the Witcher make selfish decisions, chase every skirt in sight, and ignore people that doesn't pay well enough, you lose the unique values that make the Witcherverse worth having.



If you haven't yet, watch the animated The Witcher: Nightmare of the Wolf.  You will get plenty of that.

And also a bit of why Vesemir changed from that into a role model that Geralt seems to be emulating now.


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## S'mon (Jan 12, 2022)

Just finished watching Series 2. I found it a bit underwhelming compared to #1; the BBEG arc didn't seem worth more than 2-3 episodes. There seemed to be an awful lot of sitting around talking, and not nearly as much happening as in #1. Also the Elves' sudden refusal to fight for Nilfgard seemed so suicidal it was hard to believe even such a bunch of idiots would have thought that a good idea!


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## CapnZapp (Jan 22, 2022)

Again, if you're going to do political intrigue, you need a substantially more intricate and detailed world building than what most fantasy shows are willing to scrape together.

The point isn't to work harder at it. The point is to leave such plot lines to shows set in our own world, where you get a hundred times as much nuance for free.

Even Game of Thrones only got so far - it spent MUCH more effort (and money) on trying to convey the Stark Lannister civil war, and STILL ended up awfully vague and unexplained over and over again.

This show's efforts were just painfully vague and abstract, like some badly written fan fiction, which is especially sad when we consider that the show actually CAN be engaging and concrete, it actually CAN offer quality content - simply by focusing on a microcosmos (such as whatever village or manor the Witcher is visiting each week)


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## CapnZapp (Jan 22, 2022)

Blue said:


> If you haven't yet, watch the animated The Witcher: Nightmare of the Wolf. You will get plenty of that.



Animated content isn't for me. Especially "mature" fare. Tried many times. Just don't see any point in cartoon blood and nudity, I guess. It's just pixels. No stakes, no engagement.

The Disney classics are okay though, as is the best Pixar movies. They don't try to do the stuff live action shows do much better*, though.

*) when given a budget, of course. Not saying those 80's barbarian movies weren't atrocious.

I would MUCH rather have seen the animated show tackle the politics and intrigue and leave the earthy blood-spattered mature themes for the live-action show.


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## S'mon (Jan 22, 2022)

CapnZapp said:


> Even Game of Thrones only got so far - it spent MUCH more effort (and money) on trying to convey the Stark Lannister civil war, and STILL ended up awfully vague and unexplained over and over again.




I thought early-season (roughly 1-4) GoT political intrigue was almost always really well done, mostly because the author Martin was taking so much from British history. The intrigue had a feel of versimilitude that the Witcher this season entirely lacked. Maybe it's not fair to compare them, but the Witcher did choose to play in a pool where it's clearly completely out of its depth. I agree they should have stuck to intimate monster-and-village storytelling, very much its strength.


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## Argyle King (Jan 22, 2022)

CapnZapp said:


> Sure. Just that I didn't come to the Witcherverse for the parenting and relationship advice.
> 
> I understand many of you and perhaps many female viewers love the idea of such a dangerous man yet someone that is dependable and reliable; but to me, the core idea of the Witcher is that ultimately, he's the alpha wolf.
> 
> ...





Isn't part of being an alpha wolf being capable of leading a pack?

A lot of leadership challenges require more than mindlessly swinging a sword. Even Conan had a learning curve when transitioning from carefree freebooter to leader and king. 

Still, I can see your point. Obviously, I won't know until season 3 plays, but I feel as though season 2 was a lot like LoTR Twin Towers: still very enjoyable, but meant to bridge two other parts of the story and show the transformation of characters before getting back to the meat and potatoes.


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## RangerWickett (Jan 22, 2022)

The real lesson is that if you're adapting an existing franchise, you ought to care about that original content, and if you change or add stuff, make sure you understand what made the original good.


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## Ryujin (Jan 22, 2022)

RangerWickett said:


> The real lesson is that if you're adapting an existing franchise, you ought to care about that original content, and if you change or add stuff, make sure you understand what made the original good.



Sometimes that simply won't work in a different medium because of either practical concerns, or because it wouldn't appeal to a large segment of the possible audience (except those die hard fans of the original work).


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## CapnZapp (Jan 23, 2022)

RangerWickett said:


> The real lesson is that if you're adapting an existing franchise, you ought to care about that original content, and if you change or add stuff, make sure you understand what made the original good.



Don't remind me of what travesty Altered Carbon season 2 was... 

They took literally everything that was awesome about S1 and just dragged it through the shitter.

The first lesson they failed was to realize that Broken Angels is not only a much duller book, it also has diddly squat to do with Altered Carbon. Richard Morgan the author quite clearly experimented with changing genres for each book.

So instead of going with the strengths of their property, they doggedly and stupidly went with adapting a completely different story in a completely different genre, and still labeled it "Altered Carbon". (And then of course the changes to the story the slashed budget and so on sealed the deal, but lesson one remains "don't throw your strengths in the trash")

A true Altered Carbon S2 could have been nearly as awesome as S1. Stay in Bay City, and invent new wonderfully seedy cyberpunk stories and reasons to keep Ortega and Poe involved. Ditch the Quellchrist jesus nonsense entirely.


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## CapnZapp (Jan 23, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> Isn't part of being an alpha wolf being capable of leading a pack?



Since you see my point I don't want to be snide, but still - alpha wolves leave the relationship drama to others. 

For instance, it would haven been awesome to see Yen, Triss and a grown-up Ciri struggling to handle a true alpha Witcher.


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## S'mon (Jan 23, 2022)

CapnZapp said:


> Since you see my point I don't want to be snide, but still - alpha wolves leave the relationship drama to others.
> 
> For instance, it would haven been awesome to see Yen, Triss and a grown-up Ciri struggling to handle a true alpha Witcher.




Henry Cavill always seems just too nice to be a real 'alpha dog' type in the sense you mean!


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## CapnZapp (Jan 23, 2022)

S'mon said:


> Henry Cavill always seems just too nice to be a real 'alpha dog' type in the sense you mean!



He's an actor, he doesn't have to be as nice as in real life.  I actually like his portrayal. Would have loved to see more of him whoring, ruthlessly killing beautiful princesses, and generally not giving a crap


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## TheSword (Jan 23, 2022)

CapnZapp said:


> Since you see my point I don't want to be snide, but still - alpha wolves leave the relationship drama to others.
> 
> For instance, it would haven been awesome to see Yen, Triss and a grown-up Ciri struggling to handle a true alpha Witcher.



I’m not sure where you’re getting this impression of Geralt as this testosterone-filled, macho, cave-man. In Wild Hunt Geralt spent most of the game chasing after Yennefer and Ciri.

He’s a leader to his kind but he’s not an animal. He’s actually pretty darn considerate to the women in his life but for the fact that there are several of them.


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## CapnZapp (Jan 23, 2022)

TheSword said:


> He’s actually pretty darn considerate to the women in his life but for the fact that there are several of them.



So go with that then!

And who said he shouldn't be considerate? It's as if I suggested he wear a wifebeater sitting around drinking beer like Fat Thor...

Look, I'm just asking for a Witcher that isn't safely domesticated, like in the show's season 2. That's all.


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## RangerWickett (Jan 23, 2022)

CapnZapp said:


> Don't remind me of what travesty Altered Carbon season 2 was...
> 
> They took literally everything that was awesome about S1 and just dragged it through the shitter.
> 
> ...



Well, they merged books two and three in a weird way, _and_ they completely flipped the Quellists to be anti-immortality, instead of being revolutionaries with patience, and they added a love story angle that wasn't terribly well written.

Honestly the premise for season 2 was fine: humanity is using alien tech to back up consciousness, so having an alien mind in a human body is kinda interesting. Going back to Kovacs homeworld and bringing in the earlier instance of his personality was also a good idea, if they landed it well. Make the climax be them coming to terms with the alien mind, figuring out the Angelfire teleportation network, and using it to take out some bad guys to finally launch an in interstellar class revolution.

But the delivery was flawed.


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## Blue (Jan 23, 2022)

CapnZapp said:


> Animated content isn't for me. Especially "mature" fare. Tried many times. Just don't see any point in cartoon blood and nudity, I guess. It's just pixels. No stakes, no engagement.



I am sorry that they put out exactly what you were looking for, but in a format you don't enjoy.  That's sincere -- it kind of sucks that they only provide what you are looking for in a way that isn't palatable to you.


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## Argyle King (Jan 23, 2022)

CapnZapp said:


> Since you see my point I don't want to be snide, but still - alpha wolves leave the relationship drama to others.
> 
> For instance, it would haven been awesome to see Yen, Triss and a grown-up Ciri struggling to handle a true alpha Witcher.




I could see that. 

I could even see enjoying that. But I think it leads to a different story, and possibly one in which the story becomes about the people around Geralt trying to save him from himself (from going down the same self-destructive path shown in other characters) rather than him being the "hero" of the story.


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## MarkB (Jan 23, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> I could see that.
> 
> I could even see enjoying that. But I think it leads to a different story, and possibly one in which the story becomes about the people around Geralt trying to save him from himself (from going down the same self-destructive path shown in other characters) rather than him being the "hero" of the story.



Yeah, that Geralt might be a fun character to play as, but he doesn't sound like someone I'd sympathise with in a show.


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