# New TEEN TITANS and JUSTICE LEAGUE (w/ Spoilers)



## Hand of Vecna

I've looked and didn't see any threads about the new eps of *Teen Titans* or *Justice League Unlimited* that are to be aired (startign Saturday, July 31st), so here we go:

TEEN TITANS (eps air at 8:00pm EST)
Saturday July 31: "Betrayal"  Terra is revealed to be a pawn of Slade.

Saturday Aug 7: "Fractured"  Robin gets a helpful visit from his Number One Fan: a short little weirdo from another dimension known as LARRY THE TITAN! But unlucky for Robin, Larry's REALITY BENDING POWERS cause more problems than they fix. 

Saturday Aug 14: "Aftershock, part 1"  Terra gets an upgrade

Saturday Aug 21: "Aftershock, part 2" This ep marks the apparent deaths of both Slade & Terra.

Saturday Aug 28: "Deception"  Cyborg infiltrates HIVE and meets up with Mammoth & Jynx.

Saturday Sept 4: "X"  [no info found]



> Animation Insider has some exciting news to share concerning season three of TEEN TITANS, which begins at the end of August (August 28th, the ep "Deception")! Sources have hinted at a few things to expect in in the next season. First, there's a new villian in town - but one familiar to long-time comic book readers - Brother Blood! Look for Brother Blood to propel a season-long arc for the next batch of 13 episodes. Blood, however, will be toned back from his comic-book counterpart, who was a fanatical religious zealot that bathed in a river of blood. Instead, the animated Blood will have other aspects of the character emphasized, such as his charismatic sway over the young and directionless.
> 
> The other exciting bit of news is the debut of a brand new Titans team: Titans East! Comic book readers recall the Titans West auxillary team... and this follows that proud tradition of East/West Titans teams. So who will be on Titans East? Look for Bumblebee, a couple of returning Titans who will thrill fans, and a couple of brand-new characters!




JUSTICE LEAGUE UNLIMITED (eps air at 8:30pm EST)

26 1/2 hour episodes, each ep being a complete story in and of itself (unlike Season 1 & 2, which were almost all 2-part stories).

Saturday, July 31: "Initiation"  A reluctant Green Arrow is asked to join the new Justice League. He, Supergirl and Captain Atom are dispatched on a mission to stop a rampaging nuclear monster in Asia. 

Saturday, Aug. 7: "For the Man Who Has Everything"  Batman and Wonder Woman surprise Superman at the Fortress of Solitude in order to bring the Man of Steel his birthday present. But when they arrive, he has been immobilized by a special "gift" that Mongul has delivered to him. [this will be an adaptation of the fantastic story by Alan Moore which appeared in the Superman comics] 

Saturday, Aug. 14: "Hawk and Dove"  Two siblings, one a pacifist and the other more aggressive, join Wonder Woman in a mission to stop a war between two neighbors. It turns out that the escalation of the conflict is all part of Ares' plan to spread misery. 

Saturday, Aug. 21: "Fearful Symmetry"  When Supergirl begins having some very disturbing dreams, she gets help from Green Arrow and The Question to figure out what is happening. It turns out she may not be dreaming after all. 

Saturday, Aug. 28: "Kids' Stuff"  Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and Green Lantern are transformed into 8-year-olds in a desperate attempt to save the world from the magic of Mordred.

Saturday, Sept 4:  "The Return"  featuring AMAZO.  May bear some resemblence to JLA #27, by Grant Morrison, where the core League is unable to beat Amazo on their own and call in every one of its reserve and back-up members. The Amazo in that issue has powers similar to Amazo in the animated series, in that he can adapt the powers of any League member just be seeing them. 

Saturday, Sept 11: "This Little Piggy" featuring Zatana

Saturday, Sept 18: "Dark Heart" featuring The Atom.

Saturday, Sept 25: "Wake The Dead" featuring the return of Solomon Grundy!

Saturday, Oct 2:  "Ultimatum"  rumored to feature the return of Hawkgirl.


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## Express

I saw the commercials for JL Unlimited. Was very happy. But I want more Red Tornado!


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## ShadowX

Looks good, I am big fan of Teen Titans.  I have not been able to catch any Justice League though, I don't really know when it is on.  I still have nightmares about Super Friends though, so maybe it is something subconscious keeping me from watching Justice League.

Ok looking at the schedule for JL, its not nearly as regular as Teen Titans which is probably why I miss it.


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## Hand of Vecna

_Justice League_ is so not _Super Friends_ -- I'm fairly sure you'll like it   Part of the reason you may've missed it so often, though, was likely due to Cartoon Network's nasty habit of re-arranging their schedule every month or so.


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## Hatchling Dragon

I'll second _Vecna_'s post.  _Justice League_ definately isn't the old Stupid Friends by any means.  While I do acutaly like _Teen Titans_, I could certainly do without them turning JL into another anime kiddie-fest.  If they keep to the standards they had in the first run of JL I'll be hooked before it even hits the air.  

Real pitty about them shying away from the longer story arcs, that was something I liked about the first season.  But I suppose I can see how show creators/producers don't much care for them as they seem to irritate people that can't religiously watch every eppisode just to keep up.  Still, you'd think that 2-parters would be fine, especialy as the Cartoon Network seemed to like putting on late-night re-runs of both parts back to back.  I always watched those showings whenever I could catch them.

I definately have to get TiVo or something similar though, I'm always missing some part of an arc, or just plain forgetting a show is on, especialy if I'm in the middle of a good game on my 'puter.

Hatchling Dragon


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## MulhorandSage

Episodes like "A Better World", "Only A Dream" and "Starcrossed" would have left the Superfriends version of the JL quivering, shaking and sent them running back to the Hall of Justice to curl up into fetal balls.

Scott Bennie


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## Hand of Vecna

I just found out CN's airing "Starcrossed" toight from 7:30-9:00 (i.e. in 1 minute).  Nice of them to gvive us so much warning....

Oh, and, AFAIK, there are no plans to make _JLU_ an kiddie anime show like _TT_ is, nor are there any plans for a crossover.  Which is a very, very good thing, considering how different the 2 shows are.


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## Chun-tzu

Hand of Vecna said:
			
		

> I just found out CN's airing "Starcrossed" toight from 7:30-9:00 (i.e. in 1 minute).  Nice of them to gvive us so much warning....




Well, it's a rerun, so I can see why they may not have bothered, although CN could definitely use some more in-house promotion.

What I want to know is when they're going to show the final 3 episodes of Samurai Jack! According to TV Tome.com, the final episode aired in the UK on Monday (the 19th). And they apparently didn't even advertise that, either.


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## RangerWickett

As a friend of mine explained to me when I was trying to understand why I didn't like Justice League:

The show is just about fighting.  There is no character development, just adventure.


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## Chun-tzu

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> As a friend of mine explained to me when I was trying to understand why I didn't like Justice League:
> 
> The show is just about fighting.  There is no character development, just adventure.




Second season was much better than the first in this regard (and many others). I can point to plenty of examples: the romance between Green Lantern and Hawkgirl; the effect of Superman's death on Batman in _Hereafter_; the team making a tough moral decision about how to defeat their ruthless counterparts in _A Better World_; Hawkgirl's questioning of faith in _The Terror Beyond_. The season finale, the three-part _Starcrossed_, holds up well against any other well-written animated show, like Reboot or Beast Wars.

If you've mostly seen episodes from season 1, then you should know that the show gets a good deal better.


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## Klaus

Also worthy of mention is J'onn J'onnz's betrayal in the Morgan LeFay/Etrigan episode.

In a half-hour show with 7 main characters, it's hard to have character _development_. But the show does pretty well the _characterization_ (whereas the old Super-Friends cartoon had everyone act as Superman clones).


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## Nightfall

I still shiver watching Darkseid and Supes beat the crap out of each other in Twilight. But certainly A Better World and indeed Star Crossed make any reference to the old Super Friends look obsolete. 

I can't wait for JLU. (I keep watching that one scene with Wonder Woman out of uniform and the guy's about ready to toss his gun and she's like "Oh yeah. Like that's gonna work." No matter how many times I see that one scene I'm like "DUDE!" This is the kind of Wonder Woman I wished had been around earlier. Xena eat your heart out. )

As for Teen Titans, Betrayal and the finale are what have me stoked, as it probably going to be so good. Also rumor has it season four will focus on Raven's Dad, Trigon. Now there's one scary guy.


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## takyris

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> The show is just about fighting.  There is no character development, just adventure.




Bull.  Or failing that, what Chun-tzu said.  If you've only seen Season One, you've only seen the "Okay, for those of you who don't know who Wonder Woman's major enemies are, here ya go..."-style setup episodes.  Season Two is where they got comfortable in their world and really started making things interesting.

You don't have to like the show, but don't fall back on "the show is just about fighting" as your reason for not liking it.


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## blackshirt5

Can't wait for both of these.

I still say though that if Starfire in the cartoon looked like Starfire in the comic, they'd get a lot more viewers.


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## Hand of Vecna

Yes, yes they would  But the show's aimed at 6-to-8-year-olds (or so the producers have said), so no Bubble-Bod for us.


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## frankthedm

a little bit more detail in the animation would add a lot in my hentai opinion.

found this,
http://www.bizarreuprising.com/img/art/yuji02/Starfire.jpg


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## Nightfall

Updated:

Cartoon Network updated their Teen Titans AND JLU episode summaries. 

Highlights include: 

Teen Titans: 
Brother Blood and new Teen Titans East for the season finale along with some more conflict including beast boy going nuts, Raven's new "friend", and Starfire getting married (betting this is where Blackfire crashes the party.)

JLU:

Wake the Dead will feature both the return of Grundy AND his Birdnose friend.

Ultimatium will feature the Ultimen.

The season finale of JLU will feature the core members going back in time to the Old West THEN moving forward in time to possibly meet with Batman of the Future. Yes that's right folks, Batman Beyond AND the JLU from the Call. 

Now who isn't stoked for these puppies?


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## cignus_pfaccari

Nightfall said:
			
		

> The season finale of JLU will feature the core members going back in time to the Old West THEN moving forward in time to possibly meet with Batman of the Future. Yes that's right folks, Batman Beyond AND the JLU from the Call.
> 
> Now who isn't stoked for these puppies?




Dude.  This is gonna rock.

Brad


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## Aaron L

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> As a friend of mine explained to me when I was trying to understand why I didn't like Justice League:
> 
> The show is just about fighting.  There is no character development, just adventure.





Yeah, uh....

Have you even SEEN this show?  I don't know what show you're watching, but it isn't the same one I am.


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## Nightfall

Cg,

I agree. I so want to see how Bruce and Terry interact with each other. Especially considering their relationship was tempteous at best.


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## ShadowX

Well, both shows were quite good.  This was my first episode of Justice League and it was much better than I expected.  I suspect that certain super heroes will always annoy me though.


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## Chun-tzu

Both rocked! JL Unlimited could easily become my favorite show.

Some interesting changes. GL's new look is good, but is it just me, or do they try to do that with all Black heroes at some point? Ben Sisko is a prime example, but there are others who have gone the exact same look. Not sure I like the new intro that much (looks like they'll show action shots of each show's new characters).

I love the JL having a crew. Makes them seem like a much bigger, more professional operation.

I'm not sure what I expected Green Arrow to sound like, but that wasn't really it. But that's no big deal. Was that the same voice for Supergirl?  The way Green Arrow was translated to animation... that was really, really cool. We've seen Hawkeye and Speedy in recent cartoons, but they weren't as cool as this. We see some nice moves (that are the moves you'd expect from an Archer, not a martial artist or something), and when he fires those arrows that transform into something else (the net pops out, or the boxing glove...)... that was cool. And the end was a nice touch. (Black Canary's got a nice costume, but her classic look is a CLASSIC.)

Lots of interesting faces among the newbies, but Gypsy and Vibe?!? Uhhh... okay.... Anyway, I like Supergirl being on the team.  In the comics, she's always been worthy of membership, but has rarely joined forces with the team.

So, ShadowX, who do you find annoying?


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## The Serge

Saw 'em both last night.  Enjoyed TT, but I went nuts over JLU.

What I liked about JLU was the animation, the revamping/expanding of the Watchtower, and the breadth of new opportunities for characters.  The animation was phenomenal.  Although in the past I would have been concerned about "first episode" greatness (in which subsequent episodes reveal shoddy animation), I'm not so concerned in this case since the last two season featured excellent animation in every episode.  I especially love how we see Superman, The Batman, and Wonder Woman as the "centerpiece" of the JLU in the title sequence.  This story was also very well done.  

Didn't like the guitar in the score for either the titles or the action sequences.  Too... hokey.  It's something I'd expect for a Marvel cartoon, not a DC cartoon.  DC has always been about great orchestral sounds, classic sounds that have a timelessness and religiosity to them.  The guitar is jarring and too modern.  I'm also going to regret the removal of the two-parters.  I really liked the two-parters.

As for the new GL...  Well, if you look at most black characters in most genre related stuff, they're very rarely left looking like "generic" black people.  Storm, for example, has blue eyes and white hair.  Geordi wore a hair-brace over his eyes and Worf had a crab on his head (yes, I know he's a klingon, but Michael Dorn's the only other black actor in ST:TNG).  And GL has glowing green eyes.  There's always some physical change in the most popular black characters and I wonder if this is to make them more appealing to white audiences.  If you look at the most popular white characters, rarely to they carry some kind of ethnic badge (like many of the black characters that appeared in the 70s) and the greatest, like Superman and Captain America, have no real changes in their physiognomy...  They're just white.  The only white characters of note that have such changes tend to be the mutants from Marvel (and this would include the whole gamut of "the beast within" characters all over Marvel like The Think and The Hulk).  

Is this racist?  Well, certainly not from an explicit intent.  Is there some form of implicit racism?  Perhaps.  I mean, we rarely see black characters out there and when we do, the better know have features that are typically associated with black people.  Is this bad?  In some ways, yes...  And it's to be expected.  In neither big company is there a single huge, well regarded black character.  The closest we get to that -- in terms of popular recognition -- is Blade and that's because of the success of the movie franchise, not the comic book.  If anything, perhaps there need to be more stories like those that featured GL in JLU in which his race is never an issue (aside from that amusing comment from the one two-parter from that dimension in which one of the Justice Guild or whatever tells him that he's a credit to his race).  Hell, IIRC, this is the first American cartoon that prominently featured an interracial relationship (take away her wings and Hawkgirl's a white woman) and that's a great thing.  

So, I'm willing to ignore the bald head and goatee.  On some of us black guys, it's quite sexy.


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## Hand of Vecna

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what I expected Green Arrow to sound like, but that wasn't really it. But that's no big deal. Was that the same voice for Supergirl?  The way Green Arrow was translated to animation... that was really, really cool.




Supergirl was voiced by Nichole Tom, Green Arrow was voiced by Kin Shriner.  According to the TV Guide for the week of July 25-31, Kin Shriner was so dedicated to his role as Green Arrow that he showed up at the recording studio dressed as the character from the comic book.

Among all the heroes present that I could see: Green Arrow, Red Tornado, Obsidian, Sand, Atom-Smasher, Dr. Light 2 (female Japanese version, not the Teen Titans villian), Sand, Ice, Wildcat, Vigilante (the Western hero - Greg Saunders), Starman (the alien prince), Johnny Thunder and his Thunderbolt, the Spectre, Rocket Red, Metamorpho, Bwana Beast, Hawk & Dove, Elongated Man, Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E.S., the Question, Aquaman, Aztek, Vixen, the Demon Etrigan, the Huntress, Steel III (John Henry), the Atom (shrinking version - Ray Palmer), Mr. Terrific II, the Creeper, Fire, Zatanna, Orion, Gypsy, Vibe, Black Canary, Steel II (Hank Heywood), and Nemesis (Tom Tresser).

Oh, and did anyone find it odd that, given the big theme of "teamwork" and "non-solo antics," The Creeper was up there?


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## Sir Osis of Liver

I spotted Booster gold, and (IIRC) Blue beetle in one shot as well.


I also disliked GA's voice when i first hears it, but by the end of the episode it had grown on me, and i ended up like it quite a bit. I also think they nailed his character quite well. I hope they use him a lot over the course of the series. I'm also looking forward to seeing the Atom in action.


I'm surprised Firestorm wasn't in the croud.


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## Chun-tzu

Serge, I agree that John Stewart has been portrayed quite well, and serves as a good role model. I think they've done a good job of touching on his race, but not defining his character by the color of his skin. I don't think there's anything racist about his look, just a bit cliche. Although, is that the look the alternate Green Lantern had in _A Better World_?

Sir Osis, I also noticed Firestorm's absence. I think he's the only JLA member through the silver age who hasn't shown up, which is a bit strange, given that he played a prominent role in the last Super Powers cartoon. Except for Hawkman, that is, who certainly can't make an appearance without the whole Hawkgirl thing being sorted out.

I've figured out what bugged me about Green Arrow's voice. Green Arrow is a hothead. He was frequently getting into arguments, especially with Hawkman. This guy sounded fairly mellow. But he did a good job, nonetheless.


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## Klaus

I bet they're saving Firestorm for his own episode.

The 'Better World' GL was bald, but no goatee.


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## Kesh

Ergh, I didn't realize it was last night. Any idea when it'll be rerun?


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## Villano

Both were pretty good.  I never warmed to Justice League.  There were too many problems for me on that series.  Powers would fluctuate wildly between (or even within) episodes (the Flash can race around the world in 2 seconds but can't catch a truck), and endings seemed tacked on at the last minute without much logic (Hawkgirl knocks back a "planet destroying" laser with her mace or Luthor's anti-superpower ray).  This episode seemed like a step up.  The climax at least made sense (although 



Spoiler



you have to wonder how many of those scientists were executed for creating an "ultimate weapon" that can be stopped by a guy with a bow and arrow


).    

Hopefully, the smaller teams and rotating cast will keep things fresh.  Besides, I've always been more of a fan of third and fourth string heroes than the big guns.  I can't wait for the Bwana Beast episode!   

And I really, really, really want to see Vixen.  I liked the redesign.  Last time I saw her in the comics, she was wearing an ugly purple jumpsuit.  




			
				Hand of Vecna said:
			
		

> Among all the heroes present that I could see: Green Arrow, Red Tornado, Obsidian, Atom-Smasher, Dr. Light 2 (female Japanese version, not the Teen Titans villian), Sand, Ice, Wildcat, Vigilante (the Western hero - Greg Saunders), Starman (the alien prince), Johnny Thunder and his Thunderbolt, the Spectre, Rocket Red, Metamorpho, Bwana Beast, Hawk & Dove, Elongated Man, Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E.S., the Question, Aquaman, Aztek, Vixen, the Demon Etrigan, the Huntress, Steel III (John Henry), the Atom (shrinking version - Ray Palmer), Mr. Terrific II, the Creeper, Fire, Zatanna, Orion, Gypsy, Vibe, Black Canary, Steel II (Hank Heywood), and Nemesis (Tom Tresser).




Nemesis!  I couldn't think of that guy's name!  He seems kind of an odd choice since, iirc, he was a secret agent.

Also, I spotted Orion, Hourman, Takion, and the original Crimson Avenger (you can only see the head of someone wearing a red mask and a grey fedora with a red band on it).  




			
				The Serge said:
			
		

> Didn't like the guitar in the score for either the titles or the action sequences.  Too... hokey.  It's something I'd expect for a Marvel cartoon, not a DC cartoon.  DC has always been about great orchestral sounds, classic sounds that have a timelessness and religiosity to them.  The guitar is jarring and too modern.




The music sucked.  It sounded like they were going for Queen's Flash Gordon soundtrack.  It was good when Queen did it, but it was terrible here. 

I chopped up your post to address a couple of points:




> Geordi wore a hair-brace over his eyes and Worf had a crab on his head (yes, I know he's a klingon, but Michael Dorn's the only other black actor in ST:TNG).




Don't forget Whoopie Goldberg.  She came in part way through the series.  Even though she wasn't a member of the crew, she was in a lot of episodes.

Granted, you had the black Vulcan on Voyager (I never watched the show, so I don't know his name), but there was nother wrong with Capt. Sisko, Jake Sisko, Cassidy Yates, or Uhura.  I'm not sure if there are any black characters on Enterprise since I don't get the channels that carry it.

And, sad to say, there's probably more than twice the black actors on ST than Latino, Native American, and Asians combined.  




> Storm, for example, has blue eyes and white hair.
> 
> *snip*
> 
> The only white characters of note that have such changes tend to be the mutants from Marvel (and this would include the whole gamut of "the beast within" characters all over Marvel like The Think and The Hulk).




But Storm's a mutant, too.  Toad, Wolverine, Beast (either version), and Nightcrawler don't look like typical white people, either.  She shouldn't be held to a different standard.

Also, don't forget that Storm was one of the few X-Men of the time who didn't wear a mask.  I can only think of Colossus and Nightcrawler.  They both have a distinctive look, and I think the same thought processes went into creating Storm.

But what do I know?  I've always liked mohawk Storm, myself.  




> As for the new GL...  Well, if you look at most black characters in most genre related stuff, they're very rarely left looking like "generic" black people.
> 
> *snip*
> 
> And GL has glowing green eyes.  There's always some physical change in the most popular black characters and I wonder if this is to make them more appealing to white audiences.  If you look at the most popular white characters, rarely to they carry some kind of ethnic badge (like many of the black characters that appeared in the 70s) and the greatest, like Superman and Captain America, have no real changes in their physiognomy...  They're just white.
> 
> *snip*
> 
> Is this racist?  Well, certainly not from an explicit intent.  Is there some form of implicit racism?  Perhaps.  I mean, we rarely see black characters out there and when we do, the better know have features that are typically associated with black people.  Is this bad?  In some ways, yes...  And it's to be expected.  In neither big company is there a single huge, well regarded black character.  The closest we get to that -- in terms of popular recognition -- is Blade and that's because of the success of the movie franchise, not the comic book.




I have to disagree with certain parts of what you said.  I think you're reading too much into GL's green eyes.  A number of white heroes have glowing eyes or fiery hair or such things.

Plus, don't forget Mr. Terrific and Vixen were there and they look physically "normal".  True, Terrific's mask made his eyes look red, but then the Flash's and Batman's make their's look white. 

OTOH, we do need more black comic heroes.  The problem is that when Marvel or DC try to do that, they end up screwing it up.  They'll decide that they want a comic about a 15 yr old black kid from the city and hire John Byrne, Peter David, or some other 50 yr old white guy to write it (most likely someone from Canada or England).  They need young, black writers.

To get a greater black audience, you need a black comic hero.  To write the comic, you need a black writer.  To get a writer, you need to pull from the black audience.  That would be the same black audience you're trying to get in the first place.  It's a vicious circle.  

Sometimes you get someone in the company who's "socially conscious" and wants to launch a black character.  The problem with that is you end up with them creating characters who wear, as you put it, ethnic badges.  They're there to be the black guy (or Asian guy or Native American guy).  For exasmple, how many black characters have "Black" in their name?  

Take a look at Super Friends.  You've got the black guy called Black Vulcan, the Japanese Samurai, the Native American Apache Chief, and the Latino El Dorado.  One guy's wearing buck skins and a loin cloth and another is named after a city of gold!  "I'm El Dorado and this is my sidekick, Lake Titicaca."   

Blade is probably the best chance to bring in young black readers.  However, how many people actually know he was a comic book character?  And Marvel dropped the ball on that with their initial comic adaption.  It didn't have a climax.  It actually ended with a "How will it end?  Go see the movie!".  I can't see very many readers being draw into collecting with that.   :\ 

To a certain degree, Marvel & DC will be "damned if they do, damned if they don't" with black characters.  If they create a hero who likes rap and basketball, they are accussed of racist stereotyping.  If they do a comic about a guy from the suburbs who's a nerd, they are accused of creating a white character and calling him black.  




> If anything, perhaps there need to be more stories like those that featured GL in JLU in which his race is never an issue (aside from that amusing comment from the one two-parter from that dimension in which one of the Justice Guild or whatever tells him that he's a credit to his race).




"You're a credit to your people."  That was great.  I love the look GL gives him.    

Was anything said in the episode they went back to WW2?  If there wasn't, that would be strange.  Of course, it was strange that they did a WW2 episode without any direct Nazi references.  




> Hell, IIRC, this is the first American cartoon that prominently featured an interracial relationship (take away her wings and Hawkgirl's a white woman) and that's a great thing.




Of course, in that relationship, I don't think people will notice the race issue so much as the fact that she looks like one of those winged aliens that conquered the Earth some time back.    

And, in Batman Beyond, Terry (the new Batman) was dating an Asian girl.  Also, iirc, Barbara "Batgirl" Gordon was married to a black man.  Plus, in the direct-to video, Mystery Of The Batwoman, Batman was dating a black woman.

There have been other, minor, interracial relationships in other cartoons like Codename: Kids Next Door.  In that one, there's a running gag dealing with Number Two having a crush on the older sister of Number Five, Cree.  In one episode, he got turned into a teenager and went on a date with her.  In the end, she was revealed to be an agent working for the "evil" adults.  Number Five likes to rub Cree's nose in the fact that she dated a "stupid kid".


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## JoeGKushner

Villano said:
			
		

> OTOH, we do need more black comic heroes.  The problem is that when Marvel or DC try to do that, they end up screwing it up.  They'll decide that they want a comic about a 15 yr old black kid from the city and hire John Byrne, Peter David, or some other 50 yr old white guy to write it (most likely someone from Canada or England).  They need young, black writers.
> 
> To get a greater black audience, you need a black comic hero.  To write the comic, you need a black writer.  To get a writer, you need to pull from the black audience.  That would be the same black audience you're trying to get in the first place.  It's a vicious circle.
> 
> Blade is probably the best chance to bring in young black readers.  However, how many people actually know he was a comic book character?  And Marvel dropped the ball on that with their initial comic adaption.  It didn't have a climax.  It actually ended with a "How will it end?  Go see the movie!".  I can't see very many readers being draw into collecting with that.   :\
> 
> To a certain degree, Marvel & DC will be "damned if they do, damned if they don't" with black characters.  If they create a hero who likes rap and basketball, they are accussed of racist stereotyping.  If they do a comic about a guy from the suburbs who's a nerd, they are accused of creating a white character and calling him black.




I think that you're completely off base here. Milestone had a whole series of black comics and they failed. They had a wide range of character types from young tough thugs to brilliant intellictuals. I enjoyed almost all of them ranging from Icon, Blood Syndicate, Hardware and Static.

I could be wrong but I just don't think the black audience is there and I think that to PC more black characters into the mainstream just because it's PC is stupid. It's like making super heroes into homosexuals because it's now PC. 

Do I object to seeing black heroes? No. Hardware was a great book. Icon was a great book. I was never too crazy about Blood Syndicate or Static but they often had some good runs. Do I mind seeing characters who are homosexual from the get go? No. 

I just think that trying to put these elements into comics because it's PC is nonsense and that until those audiences vote with their dollars to keep those comics going, that such efforts will not only fail, but will continue to alienate regular fans when those PC elements are stuffed into regular comics.


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## Klaus

I must chime in to mention that Static Shock in a great cartoon (is it still being produced?) with a black superhero (and his white sidekick, no less!  ).


----------



## The Serge

Villano said:
			
		

> I chopped up your post to address a couple of points:



Okay!  



			
				Villano said:
			
		

> Don't forget Whoopie Goldberg.  She came in part way through the series.  Even though she wasn't a member of the crew, she was in a lot of episodes.



Yeah...  But she had no eyebrows!  JK...  You're right here.  



			
				Villano said:
			
		

> Granted, you had the black Vulcan on Voyager (I never watched the show, so I don't know his name), but there was nother wrong with Capt. Sisko, Jake Sisko, Cassidy Yates, or Uhura.  I'm not sure if there are any black characters on Enterprise since I don't get the channels that carry it.



I think they had no choice with DS9...  Afterall, the primary character/star was black and they had wanted to flesh out his character in a certain direction.  I will say that I believe that the handling of Sisko's character was fantastic.  Although I had problems with the fact that he had to start out as a Commander (of all the "leaders" of every ST show, he's the only one who didn't start out as a Captain), I believe that the character's portrayal shattered a lot of stereotypes.   First, he was a single parent.  It is rare to see black males as single parents in movies or television.  Second, he had a strong relationship with his father, another rarity.  And, his race rarely (if ever) to my knowledge came up.  So, I think that generally, Sisko was handled very well.



			
				Villano said:
			
		

> And, sad to say, there's probably more than twice the black actors on ST than Latino, Native American, and Asians combined.



An unfortunate situation, although I think that this is due to the tremendous amount of attention that's been placed upon the black aspects of the U.S.'s civil rights movement (for right or wrong).  



			
				Villano said:
			
		

> But Storm's a mutant, too.  Toad, Wolverine, Beast (either version), and Nightcrawler don't look like typical white people, either.  She shouldn't be held to a different standard.



Excellent point.  However, what I was getting at is that she's one of the few visible black characters until recently.  Most black characters share her "otherness" and they aren't  mutants.  There's an inordinant amount of black characters with a "special" look to them while we don't see that as frequently with white characters unless they're mutants (generally speaking).



			
				Villano said:
			
		

> But what do I know?  I've always liked mohawk Storm, myself.



Yech.  I never liked the mohawk.



			
				Villano said:
			
		

> I have to disagree with certain parts of what you said.  I think you're reading too much into GL's green eyes.  A number of white heroes have glowing eyes or fiery hair or such things.



True...  But, I'm getting into percentages at this point.  Most black characters have something unique to their appearance while most white characters tend not to have such uniqueness...  This is especially the case for the iconic characters.



			
				Villano said:
			
		

> OTOH, we do need more black comic heroes.  The problem is that when Marvel or DC try to do that, they end up screwing it up.  They'll decide that they want a comic about a 15 yr old black kid from the city and hire John Byrne, Peter David, or some other 50 yr old white guy to write it (most likely someone from Canada or England).  They need young, black writers.



The problem isn't so much who's writing the material as much as it's a problem of the direction that people seem to think black characters need to move.  I think it's a mistake to paint all black characters as coming out of the inner cities with a great emphasis on their race and ethnicity.  I think that there are plenty of write writers who could write great stories that just happen to feature black characters.  Now, if the goal becomes one in which the character's race is important, perhaps a black writer would be helpful, but I believe that a competent white writer could pull it off as well.  As long as the writing doesn't steep into cliches and stereotypes about being black (and therein lies the challenge), I think anyone can pull it off.  Afterall, it doesn't necessarily take a male writer to write about female characters.



			
				Villano said:
			
		

> To get a greater black audience, you need a black comic hero.  To write the comic, you need a black writer.  To get a writer, you need to pull from the black audience.  That would be the same black audience you're trying to get in the first place.  It's a vicious circle.



The problem here is that most of the icons have already been accounted for.  The challenge is finding the proper paradigm in which to place such a character.

Actually, I think the cartoon character, Static Shock, would make for a great comic book character.  He's not from the inner city, he doesn't have a chip on his shoulder, he doesn't look strange or weird.  He has a strong familial background.  He has no political interests.  But, he's black and one can feel that he's black without it being an issue (it's ashame that he has the little white sidekick...  It's almost as if the producers felt that there had to be a prominent white buddy in order for the show to sell).  



			
				Villano said:
			
		

> To a certain degree, Marvel & DC will be "damned if they do, damned if they don't" with black characters.  If they create a hero who likes rap and basketball, they are accussed of racist stereotyping.  If they do a comic about a guy from the suburbs who's a nerd, they are accused of creating a white character and calling him black.



Static Shock reveals that this can be done.  Hell, GL could be handled differently.  He could have come up in the 'hood, but against all odds made it out and ended up doing well financially and eventually as a Green Lantern.  This could be very much a sideline issue and not the focus of his character, but an element to help flesh him out.  

I do agree that what tends to happen is that too many writers either bow to stereotypes or they go too far in reversing stereotypes.  Back in the 70s and 80s with characters like Black Vulcan, Apache Chief, Samauri, and El Dorado, that was the time to feature new ethnic characters because there needed to be greater awareness.  We've moved past that now.  Now, if we had a character named Vulcan, who just happened to be black, it would work.  If we had a guy called Monolith who just happened to be Native American, that would work.  And so on.  The race, while a part of the character, needn't be the focus.  Writers, black and white, need to learn how to do this.  In doing so, they need to recognize that there's no need to incorporate physical differences unless necessary.  In the case of Vulcan, flaming eyes when he uses his powers if fine...  Hell, you could even make him redbone.  But a red streak through the hair or giving him perpetually red eyes seems to be an attempt to rob the character of his racial identity.



			
				Villano said:
			
		

> "You're a credit to your people."  That was great.  I love the look GL gives him.



It was a great scene and a revelation that these cartoons aren't just for kids.  



			
				Villano said:
			
		

> Was anything said in the episode they went back to WW2?  If there wasn't, that would be strange.  Of course, it was strange that they did a WW2 episode without any direct Nazi references.



I don't think there was a reference to it during the WWII episodes...  As for the Nazi references, I don't think they could get away with it at all.  They didn't even mention Hitler's name.  



			
				Villano said:
			
		

> And, in Batman Beyond, Terry (the new Batman) was dating an Asian girl.  Also, iirc, Barbara "Batgirl" Gordon was married to a black man.  Plus, in the direct-to video, Mystery Of The Batwoman, Batman was dating a black woman.



I suppose Terry's girlfriend was Asian.  And you're right about the Gordon/DA thing.  However, this wasn't a high profile thing between central characters that continued over the course of quite a few episodes.



			
				Villano said:
			
		

> There have been other, minor, interracial relationships in other cartoons like Codename: Kids Next Door.  In that one, there's a running gag dealing with Number Two having a crush on the older sister of Number Five, Cree.  In one episode, he got turned into a teenager and went on a date with her.  In the end, she was revealed to be an agent working for the "evil" adults.  Number Five likes to rub Cree's nose in the fact that she dated a "stupid kid".



I love this show.  

We are seeing a thawing of this sort of thing and I think that's great for children and young adults.


----------



## JoeGKushner

The Serge said:
			
		

> Actually, I think the cartoon character, Static Shock, would make for a great comic book character.  He's not from the inner city, he doesn't have a chip on his shoulder, he doesn't look strange or weird.  He has a strong familial background.  He has no political interests.  But, he's black and one can feel that he's black without it being an issue (it's ashame that he has the little white sidekick...  It's almost as if the producers felt that there had to be a prominent white buddy in order for the show to sell).
> 
> 
> Static Shock reveals that this can be done.  Hell, GL could be handled differently.  He could have come up in the 'hood, but against all odds made it out and ended up doing well financially and eventually as a Green Lantern.  This could be very much a sideline issue and not the focus of his character, but an element to help flesh him out.
> .




See, here is the problem. Static was a comic. he was one of the heroes in the Milestone line up with Icon, Hardware and others. It has been done. It didn't sell.

Does that mean it shouldn't be tried again? Of course not. It just shouldn't be touted that it's never been done before or that it will automatically make it just on being the 'correct' way to portray such a character.


----------



## The Serge

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Milestone had a whole series of black comics and they failed. They had a wide range of character types from young tough thugs to brilliant intellictuals. I enjoyed almost all of them ranging from Icon, Blood Syndicate, Hardware and Static.



The problem with Milestone is that it seemed to concentrate heavily on black superheroes rather than just one superheroes.  Furthermore, there was little crossover continuity with DC.  And, to make matters worse, from what I saw, the characters were largely carbon copies of existing icons.



			
				JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I could be wrong but I just don't think the black audience is there and I think that to PC more black characters into the mainstream just because it's PC is stupid. It's like making super heroes into homosexuals because it's now PC.



The black audience is there.  The problem is that the creators haven't figured out that the black audience wants to see and read about heroes who just happen to be black.  

I do think that this is a case of trying to incorporate something without thinking it through, so I suppose that's so-called "PC."



			
				JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I just think that trying to put these elements into comics because it's PC is nonsense and that until those audiences vote with their dollars to keep those comics going, that such efforts will not only fail, but will continue to alienate regular fans when those PC elements are stuffed into regular comics.



The effort should be in writing good comics.  If a sociopolitical statement is made during that time, fine, but that shouldn't be the focal point in most cases.  The challenge is to write about a cool character that just happens to be black.  Spawn started out this way.  The character's black, but that's not the focus of the story.


----------



## JoeGKushner

The Serge said:
			
		

> The effort should be in writing good comics.  If a sociopolitical statement is made during that time, fine, but that shouldn't be the focal point in most cases.  The challenge is to write about a cool character that just happens to be black.  Spawn started out this way.  The character's black, but that's not the focus of the story.




I agree with you 100%. I read a lot. A good story will sell. However, Spawn isn't necessarily a good story. It's a by-product of Todd's art and he rode it through brilliantly with many cross over products and events. I could be wrong, but it didn't matter what race/color Spawn is because of the creator and the early efforst behind it.

Most of the time when it's just about the story, a story where the character's race and crred don't matter, especially when it's a non-what character, it fails to live up the hype or image behind it. There are exceptions but the characters the keep coming back are generlaly those that live in those areas and deal with those problems like Luke Cage. People want those stories but dont' want them all them time. I don't know what the thinking is behidn this, but perhaps it's, "Well, this is just like this comic, but the character is black. Should I buy this comic just because the characters is black?"

I have no idea of what the % is of comic purchasers race are. I'd be interested to see it. If the market isn't there, it's just not there. Heck, the market has been failing for almost all types of comics these days and even with the super heroes movies, is failing in its traditional monthly role. Perhaps something new will evolve from it?


----------



## Villano

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I think that you're completely off base here. Milestone had a whole series of black comics and they failed. They had a wide range of character types from young tough thugs to brilliant intellictuals. I enjoyed almost all of them ranging from Icon, Blood Syndicate, Hardware and Static.
> 
> I could be wrong but I just don't think the black audience is there and I think that to PC more black characters into the mainstream just because it's PC is stupid. It's like making super heroes into homosexuals because it's now PC.
> 
> Do I object to seeing black heroes? No. Hardware was a great book. Icon was a great book. I was never too crazy about Blood Syndicate or Static but they often had some good runs. Do I mind seeing characters who are homosexual from the get go? No.
> 
> I just think that trying to put these elements into comics because it's PC is nonsense and that until those audiences vote with their dollars to keep those comics going, that such efforts will not only fail, but will continue to alienate regular fans when those PC elements are stuffed into regular comics.




I think you missed the point of my thread, or, at least the part where I said:



> Sometimes you get someone in the company who's "socially conscious" and wants to launch a black character. The problem with that is you end up with them creating characters who wear, as you put it, ethnic badges. They're there to be the black guy (or Asian guy or Native American guy). For exasmple, how many black characters have "Black" in their name?
> 
> Take a look at Super Friends. You've got the black guy called Black Vulcan, the Japanese Samurai, the Native American Apache Chief, and the Latino El Dorado. One guy's wearing buck skins and a loin cloth and another is named after a city of gold! "I'm El Dorado and this is my sidekick, Lake Titicaca."




I'm against putting in a character to be the "black guy", but I do think it would be nice to see a wide variety of heroes just because so many heroes see to be the same.

As for Milestone, I don't know why it failed.  I've heard that there's a book out about the company, but I haven't read it.  It may not have been a lack of sales, but mismanagement that killed the company.  It's why people like M.C. Hammer and Mike Tyson can make $100 million dollars and end up bankrupt.  

And Marvel and DC would be crazy not to try and find a way to tap into any kind of larger market.  More sales equals more money for them.


----------



## Klaus

Well, for variety without stereotypes, I recommend DC's Outsiders.

Grace Choi -> Asian-descended strong woman.
Anissa Pierce -> Density-controlling daughter of Black Lightning.
Rex Mason -> Metamorpho himself, he's what?- 6 different colors? 
Jenny Lynn-Hayden -> Jade. a green supermodel! 
Indigo -> Blue-skinned, pink-haired female android (gynoid?) from the future.

The comic doesn't carry the Comics Code stamp, so the writer (Judd Winnick) can get away with more stuff, like sexual innuendo between Arsenal and Grace (including Grace's mentions of Plastic Man!) and a whole lotta cussin'! 

And while you're at it, check out Teen Titans (now led by Victor Stone/Cyborg).


----------



## Chimera

Just wanted to mention that Static Shock (who I've watched, but don't see all that often) has had visits from Superman and I believe, Batman.  Thus establishing them in the same universe (of a sort).

Superman even says something about him making a great addition to the Justice League when he grows up.


----------



## JoeGKushner

*Another character*

When someone mentioned Blade, it made me think of Ghost Dog. Now talk about a weird character eh? A modern day samuria working for the mob. Now you're talking!


----------



## Klaus

Chimera said:
			
		

> Just wanted to mention that Static Shock (who I've watched, but don't see all that often) has had visits from Superman and I believe, Batman.  Thus establishing them in the same universe (of a sort).
> 
> Superman even says something about him making a great addition to the Justice League when he grows up.



 In the cartoon, it's been established that Dakota (the city where Static Shock lives) is in the same universe as the Batman, Superman and Justice League cartoons. But in the original comics, it was an entirely different setting (in fact, there was a multidimensional crossover titled "When Worlds Collide" that tried to hype up the Milestone line a bit).


----------



## takyris

Villano said:
			
		

> Don't forget Whoopie Goldberg.  She came in part way through the series.  Even though she wasn't a member of the crew, she was in a lot of episodes.




They've also been decent about having actors of different ethnicities in guest roles as captains of other ships (ie, another starship captain who happens to be a black woman).  The only complaint I've got about it is that if the captain happens to be a minority and human, they're not going to be evil.  If it's an old white guy, he could well be behind all the bad stuff, but if that other starship captain is black, man, ain't no way he's evil.  He could be on the wrong side of a conflict, but he'll have some "Oh, I can see his point of view" thing going on to make sure that he isn't evil.

I understand the desire not to perpetuate racist stereotypes, and I approve of it, but I also think that I'm ready for a good intelligent african-american villain -- not a misunderstood tragic hero or a violent thug.  A good quality villain.  Like Anthony Hopkins' role in "Silence of the Lambs" (purposely not mentioning the sequel).  

That's a far-ranging side-note, though. Sorry if I derailed. 



> I have to disagree with certain parts of what you said.  I think you're reading too much into GL's green eyes.  A number of white heroes have glowing eyes or fiery hair or such things.




Hey, I'm possibly in the weird white-guy boat, but I was shocked to see J'onn shift into a white guy.  Since he's being voiced by Carl Lumbly, I always assumed that J'onn would morph into a black guy instead.  And I'd also considered him part of the ethnic diversity of the cast.  Yeah, he looks different, he's a fantastic character (um, in my opinion, just 'cause I like him).  I've always been impressed by his depth and how well he manages to portray a strongly principled outsider looking in at society -- a role that I thought Lumbly did extremely well.

But maybe this plays into the "Only allowed if they look different" rule.  I think that role, played by someone drawn as a human black guy, would play into too many "Oh, they're trying to be socially conscious, groan" worries, but having him as an alien and *voiced* by an african-american man lets them work with it more.

Again, possibly just me.



> To a certain degree, Marvel & DC will be "damned if they do, damned if they don't" with black characters.  If they create a hero who likes rap and basketball, they are accussed of racist stereotyping.  If they do a comic about a guy from the suburbs who's a nerd, they are accused of creating a white character and calling him black.




Yep.  The solution is to create an actual character instead of basing their character choices on focus group decisions.  Create an actual character, and people might eventually say, "I didn't like him/her," because nobody is liked by everybody, but only a small minority are going to say "I thought this was racist," and these are the same people who are going to say that "Lion King" was racist because Mufasa dies and two of the hyenas are voiced by non-white people.



> Was anything said in the episode they went back to WW2?  If there wasn't, that would be strange.  Of course, it was strange that they did a WW2 episode without any direct Nazi references.




There was, but you had to be paying close attention.  When GL joins up with the Dirty-Dozen-esque team of military guys, one of 'em says something like, "Where'd you learn to handle a gun like that," and GL says, "U.S. Marines".  The guy snickers and says something like, "Yeah, right, pal," a veiled reference to the fact that in WW2, John would likely have not been let in.

That's about as far as they go with it -- but it *is* there if you're paying attention.


----------



## Nightfall

Moving along...


I liked this ep but I REALLY want to see Wake the Dead. Grundy and Birdnose, together again!

Also Teen Titan wise, I wanna see the Fratured one. Plus the resolution to this season. (Though Betrayal I felt ROCKED even if the tone at first was a little off...)


----------



## Viking Bastard

I'm eagarly awaiting the Alan Moore adaption!


----------



## Nightfall

Well if you mean "For the Man that Has Everything" I think it's only a loose adaptation.

Even so, should be good. We'll see tonight.

Toonami with JLU and TT is far better than weekday stuff.


----------



## blindrage

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Well if you mean "For the Man that Has Everything" I think it's only a loose adaptation.
> 
> Even so, should be good. We'll see tonight.
> 
> Toonami with JLU and TT is far better than weekday stuff.




It was a good and faithful adaptation to the JL cartoon world and man o man there were like three p o heros at the end of the cartoon.  It's fun watching Superman pop open the can of whip.. on a villian.


----------



## Hand of Vecna

Looks like my theory [or was it someone else's theory?] of their being a new intro/opening for each ep (not unlike how each ish of a comic has a different cover) proved correct!

Tonight's ep, "For the Man Who Has Everything," was an adaptation of an Alan Moore story which appeared in _Superman Annual_ #11 (1985). My one complaint was that they didn't show Mongul's fantasy (they did in the comic -- they showed him sitting atop a throne, with [iirc] the broken bodies of the entire JL at his feet, and all the races of the Universe calling his name.

And we got to "see" the Invisible Jet!

Comic Geek Tidbit -- Kal-El's utterance of "Rao, help me," (or words to that effect) refers to Rao, greatest of all the ancient Kryptonian gods, who had kindled their red sun.  At one point in Krypton's history, Rao was so revered that anyone born with red hair was made an officer in their military upon coming of age.


----------



## Viking Bastard

Did Kal-El get to say his famous "Burn!"

 Say yes. Please.


----------



## Chimera

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> Did Kal-El get to say his famous "Burn!"
> 
> Say yes. Please.





Yes, he did.

I also note that all the Kryptonian names were something-El.  "El" means "god".


----------



## Mouseferatu

I thought tonight's ep had a solid concept (of course it did, look at the source), marred by a mediocre execution. Spoilers below, for those who want to skip, but I'm not going to black out my whole post. 

I really liked the first half. Thought it had potential to be one of the best episodes to date. But the second half let me down on several levels.

One: I greatly dislike the fact that, after he was awakened, Supes still needed help to beat Mongul. I thought it rather weakened the whole ep, in terms of both plot and emotional satisfaction for the viewer.

Two: They really missed an opportunity for using the Black Mercy. They should never have shown WW throwing it at Mongul. Rather, we should see WW and Bats attack him as he's about to kill Supes. He fights back, beats them to a pulp, and stands victorious over the fallen superheroes. Only _then_ does perspective change, and the viewer discover that when WW and Bats attacked, they hit Mongul with the flower, and everything after that was him seeing his fantasy, seeing how he _wanted_ the fight to turn out. That would have been a much more interesting way of showing essentially the same events, and would even have earned them points back on problem # 1, above.

Three: Not the writers' fault, but did it seem to anyone else like the commercial breaks were misplaced?

Four: The way in which Batman talked Superman out of the dream, and then WW talked Bats out, just rang false to me for some reason. Not entirely sure how they I think they should have done it, honestly, but it felt too easy. (Maybe just a result of the fact that they aren't allowed to tell two-part stories anymore...)


----------



## CrusaderX

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Three: Not the writers' fault, but did it seem to anyone else like the commercial breaks were misplaced?




I noticed that too.  And I pretty much agree with your other points.  I still greatly enjoyed the episode, though, although it was incredibly stupid for Batman to physically confront Mongul by jumping on his back.  Bats is smarter than that.

And it was odd for Kal-El's wife to have Lana Lang's looks, yet Lois Lane's voice.    But it was a nice touch to have Dana Delany in this role.


----------



## Hand of Vecna

Chimera said:
			
		

> I also note that all the Kryptonian names were something-El.  "El" means "god".




Close -- "El" is an ancient Kryptonian word for "Star."  The House of El was one of the most revered Houses of Krypton -- Val-El launched his planet's Age of Exploration and discovered islands and continents; Sul-El invented Krypton's first telescope and charted many far off stars, including Earth's sun; Tala-El was a great lawyer and statesman who authored Krypton's planet-wide constitution; and Hatu-El discovered the nature of electricity, proved that lightning was electrical, and invented Krypton's first electric motor. 

Given that the only Kryptonians we saw in he ep were directly related to Kal (his wife, son, and father), it makes sense those were the only names we heard.


----------



## Viking Bastard

Chimera said:
			
		

> Yes, he did.



 Keeeeeeeeewl!

  Now I can't wait to see this episode!


----------



## Nightfall

Well while I don't totally agree with all of Mouse's points, I do think that 2 would have been cooler overall. But then it might have drained some of the fun out of watching Supes fight.

I do think though they let Supes hold back too much until the end. 

What I DID like was both Supes and Bats agreeing he got off lightly. In any case, good to see an invisible jet that made sense AND watch both WW and Bats discuss what to get him.

Overall not as impressive as the first but we'll see how we do down the road. (Wake the Dead folks. You know you want!)


----------



## takyris

Liked it.  Good characterization, good writing, good action.

I think 2 is a good idea, but I don't think it'd work in what's supposed to be a kids' show.  They did about as much as they could get away with.  If they'd done it on-screen, they'd only have been able to, y'know, show graves or the Justice League alive and in chains or something -- or, possibly, if trying to do it right, a trophy wall with each of their chest logos ripped and hanging on the wall or something.  They couldn't show bloody corpses in this show, so they left it to our imagination.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty!

A few questions since I don't get cable and am reduced to downloaded the shows off WinMX.   

1. How many seasons of Justice League were there, and how many seasons of Justice League Unlimited have thier been?

2. Are they on DVD sets yet?


----------



## Viking Bastard

Two seasons of Justice League and two epiosdes of Justic 
 League Unlimited. Some of JL episodes have been released 
 on DVD, but not in box sets. I know the premier is out on 
 DVD and the finale Starcrossed, but otherwise I don't know.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty!

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> Two seasons of Justice League and two epiosdes of Justic
> League Unlimited. Some of JL episodes have been released
> on DVD, but not in box sets. I know the premier is out on
> DVD and the finale Starcrossed, but otherwise I don't know.



Last night I downloaded an ep of Unlimited called "Initiation" where GA, GL, Supergirl, & Captain Atom go to China and battle some nuclear powered giant, kind of reminded me of Terminus from Marvel.  Anyway, I take it that was episode #2?  It was pretty cool, but I don't care much for the whole Supergirl concept.  In this is she Clark's long lost Kryptonian cousin?  

I've managed to grab six or seven JL eps and that show rocks.  If they would put out the two seasons on DVD I'd snap them up in a second.


----------



## Viking Bastard

That's episode 1.01 I believe. I haven't seen any of JLU.

 I can't recall the details of the AniDCU's incarnation of Supergirl, but she 
 was first introduced in the Superman: TAS show.


----------



## WayneLigon

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Two: They really missed an opportunity for using the Black Mercy. They should never have shown WW throwing it at Mongul. Rather, we should see WW and Bats attack him as he's about to kill Supes. He fights back, beats them to a pulp, and stands victorious over the fallen superheroes. Only _then_ does perspective change, and the viewer discover that when WW and Bats attacked, they hit Mongul with the flower, and everything after that was him seeing his fantasy, seeing how he _wanted_ the fight to turn out.



That's pretty much how the original story goes. In the comics, Robin is there also, along with Batman. Everyone gets the stew beaten out of them while Robin uses these power gauntlet things to safely pick up the flower after it's been torn off Batman; he then drops it on Mongul. You see Mongul bat it away, flash-fry Robin, kill the remaining heroes, then ascend to a throne while Earth pays him homage. Then it cuts back to Mongul standing there, staring off into space, with the Black Mercy on him. 

There is a recent collection of the Alan Moore DC heroes stories; the story this was adapted from is in that collection.


----------



## Chimera

Hand of Vecna said:
			
		

> Close -- "El" is an ancient Kryptonian word for "Star."  The House of El was one of the most revered Houses of Krypton -




I'm talking Real World, dude.

El as in an ancient name for God.  As in Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, Uriel the Archangels, with the appelation 'el' at the end meaning "of God".

So stick that into context.


----------



## CrusaderX

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Last night I downloaded an ep of Unlimited called "Initiation" where GA, GL, Supergirl, & Captain Atom go to China and battle some nuclear powered giant, kind of reminded me of Terminus from Marvel.  Anyway, I take it that was episode #2?  It was pretty cool, but I don't care much for the whole Supergirl concept.  In this is she Clark's long lost Kryptonian cousin?




"Initiation" was the first JLU episode.  "For the Man Who Has Everything" was the second.  Next week will be the third.  

It's been awhile since I saw the Supergirl episodes from Superman: The Animated Series, so I can't quite recall her origin, but I do like the character.  I especially enjoyed her team-ups with Batgirl from Batman: The Animated Series.


----------



## Villano

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> One: I greatly dislike the fact that, after he was awakened, Supes still needed help to beat Mongul. I thought it rather weakened the whole ep, in terms of both plot and emotional satisfaction for the viewer.




But if Superman had stepped in at the end and took out Mongul by himself, that would have made Wonder Woman look bad.  She spent the entire episode getting her butt kicked.  

There is only one thing that bothered me about the episode...Okay, two things.  First, how did Mongul know to find Superman?  Does everyone know about the Fortress of Solitude? 

Secondly, I had a minor problem with Batman's fantasy.  I thought that 



Spoiler



he should have ben the one to stop his parents' murderer, not his father.  I guess I'm used to writers who've said that Bruce wishes he had stopped the killer and that his entire career as Batman figuratively trying to stop that event.



I've never read the original story, so was Batman's fantasy as protrayed in the cartoon the same as the comic?


----------



## Mouseferatu

> But if Superman had stepped in at the end and took out Mongul by himself, that would have made Wonder Woman look bad. She spent the entire episode getting her butt kicked.




I don't really have a problem with that. WW's a great character. There's a lot of things she can do better than Supes. But when it comes right down to it, in terms of sheer physical might, Supes is tougher. Always has been. The whole premise behind Mongul's plan was that Superman was the only person powerful enough to stop him. I'd liked to have seen that fact play out.


----------



## Nightfall

Villano,

I think the fact is Bruce wanted something to change. It didn't necessarily have to be his father but I do believe since he saw himself as a kid, it made more sense that way.

(Spoilers aren't necessary since we have a w/Spoilers in the thread.)

Supes is indeed stronger but if you recall he took a pounding the first time he and Mongol slugged it out. So in that instance he did need a little help. 

Regarding Supergirl, there have been variations but the current Supergirl was daughter of Jor'el's brother who lived on a sister planet/moon of Krypton. She too was put in a safety thingie/suspended animation. That's how I believe both Superman: TAS and the comics portrayed her "arrival." 

I'm a little suprised no one is talking about Fractured. I had to get an air tank for that one. "Larry" was too damn funny but I though the voicing of Henry Rollins (of Black Flag fame) was a great guest shot and decent enough villian. While the story was a little weak concerning Robin's self-doubt, the rest of it, the breaking the finger, the gang trying to "fix" reality and Raven's sort of love for Rotten's version of reality were VERY well executed. (Oh yeah, plus the fact Larry sings along/before PuffyUmia(sp). I love those gals!  ) 

Next week:

For the Titans, season 2 finale, part one. Aftershock should be VERY interesting indeed.

Justice League Rugrats versus Mordred? Gee you'd think Eregrin would step up here in this one. (Doubtful since he's not mentioned. But still a possibility.)


----------



## Hand of Vecna

Chimera said:
			
		

> I'm talking Real World, dude.
> 
> El as in an ancient name for God.  As in Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, Uriel the Archangels, with the appelation 'el' at the end meaning "of God".
> 
> So stick that into context.




Since when does the Real World have anything to do with Comics, especially Comic Alien Naming Conventions?   




			
				CrusaderX said:
			
		

> It's been awhile since I saw the Supergirl episodes from Superman: The Animated Series, so I can't quite recall her origin, but I do like the character.




In the DC Animated Universe, Supergirl is Kara, last survivor of the planet Argos (sister planet to Krypton; when Krypton blew, it knocked Argos out of orbit, and most of Kara's family hid in cryostasis pods).  Kal had flown out to where Krypton had been to see if there were any traces of... anything (besides Kryptonite), found Argos & Kara, revived her [hers was the only viable cryopod], brought her to earth, and he & the Kents raised her, forging for her an identity of her being Clark's cousin.  On Earth, she found she had powers similar to Supermans, though her strength & invulnerability are proportionately weaker than Kal's.

As for the Supergirl of the comics.... well, there's *Matrix (Linda Danvers)*, from an alternate Universe where Lex Luthor was the Earth's biggest hero, and a trio of Kryptonian villains [General Zod, Quex-Ul, and Zaora] escaped and went about killing everyone (including that realities Superboy) 'till 'mainstream' Supes came in (via some cajoling from Matrix) and killed them [the only time he's ever killed], and brought Matrix back to his Earth to raise her, and she later merged with some gal and they became some sort of Earth-born Angel of Fire.  There's also *Power Girl*, who for a time believed she was Kal-El's cousin, 'till she got her real memories back from her grandfather Arion (or did she...?).  Then there's *Kara Zor-El*, who apeared in the _Batman/Superman_ comic, and was revealed to have been a 'passenger' inside a ginormous Kryptonite meteor that was headed for Earth; she's the daughter of Zor-El, brother of Jor-El, father of Kal-El, and is thus Superman's cousin.... or so it seems.  Se's got all of Supes's powers, and apparently his weakness to K-rock as well.  She also appears to've recently been brainwashed by Darkseid.

Oh, and I think next week's JLU is the one with Hawk & Dove (and WW and Hades), not the one where the JLU gets turned into kids.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty!

Damn this show makes me wish I had cable TV!  

Can anyone give me the whole roster of JLU?


----------



## Fiery James

Anyone know when/where JLU is going to start airing in Canada?  Does YTV have it on their fall schedule?

Thanks!

- JB


----------



## MulhorandSage

YTV will start airing it at 9 pm on Friday September 10

http://www.corusent.com/corporate/press_room/pressReleaseDetail.asp?id=669


----------



## Nightfall

Vecna,

Nope. According to the latest CN schedule, (www.cartoonnetwork.com) JLU is the Kids one. The Hawk and Dove one is next week.

(Don't ask. CN has a wonky schedule for a lot of its shows. At least they aren't futzing with the last three Teen Titans.)


----------



## Hand of Vecna

Hrm.... I blame Larry.


----------



## Fiery James

MulhorandSage said:
			
		

> YTV will start airing it at 9 pm on Friday September 10
> 
> http://www.corusent.com/corporate/press_room/pressReleaseDetail.asp?id=669





Awesome, thanks!

- JB


----------



## Nightfall

Hand of Vecna said:
			
		

> Hrm.... I blame Larry.



Hey that works for me. I blame him for a lot of the CN/AS stunts that get pulled on this network.


----------



## Hand of Vecna

Baby Etrigan's so _cute_!!!  And the ending was a nice twist, too.

Nice to see new baddies (we saw Blockbuster and KGBeast fighting alongside with Cheetah and Copperhead).

---

Can't wait for next week's TT, either.  Poor, poor insane Terra...


----------



## stevelabny

*gah*

baby ertigan is NOT cute.
baby anything is never cute. young versions of characters is my least favorite cliche episode of scifi/fantasy tv.

but especially baby etrigan
etrigan is cooler than the rest of the league put together.

(continues his i dont care what they do except when its to one of MY favorite characters rant, drools, runs off into darkness, still babbling)


----------



## driver8

stevelabny said:
			
		

> baby ertigan is NOT cute.
> baby anything is never cute. young versions of characters is my least favorite cliche episode of scifi/fantasy tv.





Amen. The Kids was my least favorite ep of JLU so far. More Black Canary!


----------



## Nightfall

I missed this ep but I'll watch it Saturday morning/noon time to see what I missed.

But yeah the Terra 2 parter should be VERY fun. I was like "Damn she took them all down." And then at the end I was like "Crap. She's in for it now. They aren't holding back." 

Truly scary moment for me, when Raven let "Dad" out to play. I was think "Oh crap. Terra's screwed."


----------



## Chimera

> I'm talking Real World, dude.
> 
> El as in an ancient name for God. As in Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, Uriel the Archangels, with the appelation 'el' at the end meaning "of God".






			
				Hand of Vecna said:
			
		

> Since when does the Real World have anything to do with Comics, especially Comic Alien Naming Conventions?




Ahem.  Given that comics are written by real world people, it may well be that the writers are aware of this meaning and intentionally used it, in which case they are naming the Kryptonians as Gods.


----------



## Klaus

Jerry Seigel and Joe Shuster (aka the creators of Superman) were both Jewish, so they might have deliberatedly named Kal-El as an angel (not as gods, though... All the "-el" ended names have a meaning like: Michael = "Who's Mightier than God?" or Daniel = "God is my judge").

I once toyed with an Elseworlds tale where an angel by the name of Kalel, with blue skin, red wings and a snake sigil on his chest, comes to Earth, and a reporter named Lois Lane dubs him "Seraphim". Halfway through it, he gets a visit from his brother, the angel Marvel, a captain of the Heavenly Host, who has red skin, white wings and a lightning sigil.


----------



## Nightfall

Uhm no offense guys but can we drop the "El" stuff. I'd rather just concentrate on the show. And what's being shown to me should be interesting. At least I'll comment more on TT since I saw that. 

Have to say Robin got a better servence package. Some how doubt Terra will get the same deal.


----------



## Klaus

If these Terra episodes are a third as good as the Judas Contract comics, they'll be awesome!

(still waiting for JLU and TT season 2 to premiere down here)...


----------



## Hand of Vecna

Klaus said:
			
		

> I once toyed with an Elseworlds tale where an angel by the name of Kalel, with blue skin, red wings and a snake sigil on his chest, comes to Earth, and a reporter named Lois Lane dubs him "Seraphim". Halfway through it, he gets a visit from his brother, the angel Marvel, a captain of the Heavenly Host, who has red skin, white wings and a lightning sigil.




Hrmmm..... *yoink*


----------



## Nightfall

Alright, saw Kids stuff. Must say if was Morgan Le Fay, I'd keep her son that way for a long time. At least until he learned his lesson. In another instance, must say I was impressed with the voice cast for the Kid Leaguers. (Still think they should have had Flash and Jonn' along as back up.) (Also thought the tension at the end with Batman saying "I was never a kid after 8 years old" was a great touch and made for WW's reaction even better I felt.) 

In today's ep, Hawk and Dove, some REALLY cool stuff. (I do wish that Kevin Smith hadn't died. Been nice to see him reprise Ares. Sure he was a fluffy kind of Ares but his menace was awesome.)  In any case loved the Annihilator and of course the return of the great vocie of our times, Ed Asner as Hephastus. Nice touch. Overall not a great ep but a pretty cool one in terms of seeing that even a "nice" girl like Wonder Woman has her breaking point. (I still laughed when I watched her beat down those thugs.)

Teen Titan wise, the end of Slade and Terra, classic. I also loved how the TT went completely nuts busting Terra up. The marker at the end, nice touch. Overall I'd say season 2 ended with the right amount of oumph and fun. 

Can't wait to see next weeks stuff, Zatana and Batman, and Cyborg goes undercover. Should be rather fun.


----------



## DM_Matt

political comment cut.


----------



## takyris

I was impressed by the message they put into the war episode of JLU.  While not exactly grad studies, it was pretty complex and interesting for a kid or YA-aimed show, and I appreciated that.

And yeah, Ed Asner was awesome.  The man can put *soooo* many meanings into "She didn't have your build," and "Come back next week.  I'll let out your armor"...

And Michael York, of all people, was pretty good as Ares (and yes, agree on the sadness of Kevin Smith's passing).

Still, points for the episode go to Wonder Woman's delivery of "Oh, right.  Like that's gonna work," which is a ton funnier in context than as it's been used during those commercial trailers.


----------



## Villano

1st episode - I thought, "Wow, this is pretty good."

2nd episode - I thought, "This is almost as good as the first."

3rd episode - I thought, "Eh, it's...okay...I guess."

4th episode - I thought, "Wow, this sucks."

The good points:  I thought Hawk & Dove were interesting characters.  Wonder Woman kicking ass in civilain clothes.  It was nice to hear Michael York's voice.

The bad:  Everything else.

Ares was a joke of a villain.  They seemed to be going for the silver age version of the character.  At least they didn't make Hades the bad guy again.

The overuse of the superspeed effect with Hawk & Dove.  That got old very fast.

The Annihilator, a magical suit of armor created by the Greek gods.  I liked him better when he was a magical suit of armor created by the Marvel Comics Asgardian gods and called "The Destroyer".

No external shots of Olympus or of Wonder Woman going there.  Not a big deal, but, from a storytelling perspective, that's a misstep.  

What was up with Friar Tuck?  

War?  Huh!  Yeah!  What is it good for?  Absolutely nothing...especially in a cartoon.  Writers today want to handle "mature" and complex issues in cartoons.  The problem is that it's still a cartoon.  What we saw was nothing more than an episode of G.I. Joe, just make Ares Cobra Commander and you're there.  You wouldn't even need to change Ares's two-dimensional personality either.

Hopefully, the next episode will be better.


----------



## Chun-tzu

Just saw the Hawk and Dove episode a couple days ago. I agree that it wasn't as good as the first three overall, but I enjoyed it. As a longtime DC fan, I really get a kick out of seeing heroes brought to the screen for the first time. And seeing it done right.

The episode worked for me because it effectively introduced two cool super-heroes. You could tell that someone actually put some thought into _how_ to animate these characters, something severely lacking in lesser super-hero cartoons. The fraternal squabbling was very well-done, and the differences in their fighting styles was cool.  Whereas Hawk is direct and aggressive in combat, Dove never hit anyone, using his opponent's attacks against them.  Sure, we've seen this before in martial arts movies, but have you ever seen it in an action cartoon? And the guest voices is always a nice touch. Fred Savage did the voice of Hawk, and his brother from Wonder Years was Dove.

Much of this season seems to me like, "what would be really cool to animate from DC comics?" and I've really enjoyed it so far.


----------



## Nightfall

Tak,

Dunno I mean yeah the trailer not as funny as the scene but they were both still funny.

Villanio, 

Well it's Zatanna and Batman. Might be good. But Fearful Symmetry sounds better from the synopsis given. (That's next week.)


----------



## jarlaxlecq

Zatanna ? She sounds familiar. Wasn't she in an episode of the original BAS?


----------



## Chun-tzu

jarlaxlecq said:
			
		

> Zatanna ? She sounds familiar. Wasn't she in an episode of the original BAS?




Yes, Bruce learned to be an escape artist from her father. In the Batman episode, she had no magic powers, so it'll be interesting to see if and how they explain her new powers. Her schtick in the comics is that she speaks her spells backwards. She's been a member of the JLA since the Silver Age.


----------



## Klaus

AND in BtAS it was shown that Zatanna and Bruce Wayne had a fling of sorts while he was under her father's tutelage.

I wonder how Wonder Woman would react to this... 

The animated Batman is really catching up to the comics' Nightwing when it comes to the ladies, eh?


----------



## jarlaxlecq

Klaus said:
			
		

> AND in BtAS it was shown that Zatanna and Bruce Wayne had a fling of sorts while he was under her father's tutelage.
> 
> I wonder how Wonder Woman would react to this...
> 
> The animated Batman is really catching up to the comics' Nightwing when it comes to the ladies, eh?





Wonder Women? is there more to that then that little bit in episode 3 of JLU? Episodes in the previous JL? I dont remember seeing that.


----------



## Hand of Vecna

Teen Titans -- "Deception"

Interesting that Brother Blood's the new H.I.V.E. Headmaster.  I wonder what happened to that old lady we saw in the very first ep of _TT_, the one who intro'd Gizmo, Jinx and Mammoth to Slade?

Fun Fact #1: H.I.V.E. stands for "Hierarchy of International Vengeance and Extermination" (at least, in the comics it does).

Fun Fact #2:  In the comics, the second incarnation of The H.I.V.E. was lead by Adeline Kane, ex-wie of Slade (Deathstroke) Wilson & mother of Grant (Ravager) Wilson and Joey (Jericho) Wilson.  She's also the one who shot out Slade's right eye, after he failed to save Joey's throat from being slit (he was sure he could react in time to save him from harm).

For those who'd like to read about Brother Blood (the comic book version, anyway), clik here.

========

JLU: "This Little Piggy"

Circe! Zatanna! B'Wana Beast! Red Tornado! Elongated Man! The Crimson Avenger! Justice, Charon, and Medusa!  Cameos galore!

And, of course.... Batman singing!


----------



## Klaus

"Maid of Honor" had Bruce and Diana dancing and later WW telling Batman he owes her a dance (she deducted his secret ID).

"Starcrossed Pt. 2" had Diana and Bruce kissing to hide their faces from Thanagarian soldiers (Diana's initiative). She then blushes and goes "Sorry about that", to which Bruce replies "My pleasure".


----------



## Truth Seeker

Klaus said:
			
		

> "Maid of Honor" had Bruce and Diana dancing and later WW telling Batman he owes her a dance (she deducted his secret ID).
> 
> "Starcrossed Pt. 2" had Diana and Bruce kissing to hide their faces from Thanagarian soldiers (Diana's initiative). She then blushes and goes "Sorry about that", to which Bruce replies "My pleasure".



Wow, missed that one *Starcrossed Pt 1 & 2*, but in the latest esp. BATMAN sings!!!!

No kidding .

He can do anything.


----------



## MulhorandSage

They've been building Bats and WW as an item since S1's "The Brave and the Bold".


----------



## TroyXavier

I've been enjoying both seasons. Was great to see the HIVE back.   Cyborg as Stone was kinda fun.   Jinx having a crush on him was cute too.   The ending was a bit too easy since we already had the Terra betrayal, but it worked.   JL rebounded with Zatana and Circe.   Loved that episode.  Also was fun having a villain who wasn't really a villain.


----------



## jarlaxlecq

Hey i don't know if its been mentioned here for sure but i was at the cartoonnetwork website checkout out the JLU part of it when i checked the Episode list. According to them episode 12 and 13 will be called 

The Once and Future Thing Part 1 and 2. What i found interesting was part two which states this

_The Justice League's Adventure in Time take them to a futuristic Gotham City where they join forces with *that era's Batman * and his super team the Justce League Unlimited._

I had hear rumors of this team up but its the 1st i've seen it in an official site. Just passing the info along to whoever else hadn't seen it.


----------



## Lord Pendragon

I've been a big fan of JL, TT, and all the precursors back to Batman TaS.  I have to admit that my biggest fear upon learning of the new Unlimited series was the loss of focus on the "Big Seven" heroes.  The reason I enjoyed the JL comic for Morrison's run, and the cartoon, was because I enjoy seeing DC's greatest heroes in action.  I've less interest in Hawk and Dove et. al.

Still, I have to say that so far the Big Guns have at least been a strong presence, if not the only presence.


----------



## D.Shaffer

Hand of Vecna said:
			
		

> Teen Titans -- "Deception"
> 
> Interesting that Brother Blood's the new H.I.V.E. Headmaster.  I wonder what happened to that old lady we saw in the very first ep of _TT_, the one who intro'd Gizmo, Jinx and Mammoth to Slade?



Check the Milk Cartons   

I thought that was a nifty little easter egg for those who noticed it.   Still doesnt explain exactly what happened, but I'm suspecting the new headmaster had something to do with it.


----------



## Kaledor

I just saw the latest JLU episode.
I haven't really followed DC much.  I know the major players from the comics, but I'm clearly missing something.  Who was the faceless guy that helped Supergirl and Green Arrow, and what's his story?  I liked his X-files-ish take on everything.  In the comics, do we ever find out who he thinks is behind it all... and do you think we'll see it in the show?

Plus, who can tell me the voice actor that played him.  It was SOOO familiar, but I couldn't place it (I have such a hard time disassociating the voice from the image I'm seeing, and the credits rolled too fast for me to guess).

I liked the episode, but I miss having Batman in it.  He's by far my favorite character both in the comics and in animated shows.


----------



## Psychotic Dreamer

The character was named The Question and I don't know anything about him other than his name.  He was voiced by Jeffrey Combs.


----------



## driver8

Kaledor said:
			
		

> I just saw the latest JLU episode.
> I haven't really followed DC much.  I know the major players from the comics, but I'm clearly missing something.  Who was the faceless guy that helped Supergirl and Green Arrow, and what's his story?  I liked his X-files-ish take on everything.  In the comics, do we ever find out who he thinks is behind it all... and do you think we'll see it in the show?
> 
> Plus, who can tell me the voice actor that played him.  It was SOOO familiar, but I couldn't place it (I have such a hard time disassociating the voice from the image I'm seeing, and the credits rolled too fast for me to guess).
> 
> I liked the episode, but I miss having Batman in it.  He's by far my favorite character both in the comics and in animated shows.




The character was The Question and was voiced by Jeffrey Combs of ReAnimator fame, who also potrayed the Vorta Weyoun in Star Trek DS9 and most recently the Andorian Commander in Enterprise. He does quite a bit of voice work too. 

http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/PersonDetail/personid-14531

The Question in the comics was an investigative reporter turner crimfighter IIRC.

http://www.dcuguide.com/Who/Question_Bio.htm


----------



## Kaledor

driver8 said:
			
		

> The character was The Question and was voiced by Jeffrey Combs ...  the Andorian Commander in Enterprise.




Ah Yes! That's the voice I was hearing. Thanks.  Like I said, I have a hard time disassociating voices in animated films.  My wife is much better at it than I, but she wasn't around for the episode


----------



## Villano

Psychotic Dreamer said:
			
		

> The character was named The Question and I don't know anything about him other than his name.  He was voiced by Jeffrey Combs.




Steve Ditko created The Question.  I'm not an expert on the character, but, from what I remember, he was Vic Sage, host of an investigative news show.  The Question was his way of bringing to justice those whom he couldn't expose on the show.

Ditko was known for weird and surreal stuff (like Dr. Strange), and I think The Question followed that mold.  I don't think he was a full-on X-Files conspiracy theorist, though.  Of course, the character's been around since, I think, the '60s, so it's possible he moved in that direction at some point.

Another possiblity is that they modeled him on Ditko, himself.  I've heard vague, strange stories about Ditko.  I've read interviews with pros who've made passing comments about Ditko making "wild accusations" about other comic pros.  

It's sad to see, but such things do happen.  Chester Gould, the creator of Dick Tracy, became strange and paranoid in his later years.  At one point in the series, Gould had Tracy become a space cop in a series of Flash Gordon-like adventures.  It was a terrible idea and it bombed badly and several papers dropped the strip.

What's strange about it is that Gould anticipated several real life inventions in his strip.  In the space stories, he came up with the idea of having ships being powered by magnetism.  When the space program didn't follow suit, he declared that they government knew about magnetic powered vehicles and was covering it up.  I think he even blamed the dropping of Dick tracy from certain papers to some sort of conspiracy.


----------



## Chun-tzu

The Question is also the character whom Rorschach, of the Watchmen, was based on, and I'm guessing the JLU team wanted a bit of Rorschach (a paranoid loon) in their version of the Question.


----------



## mmu1

I caught the most recent episode of Justice League by accident (I've seen a few in the past) and I have to ask - what was the deal with the simply _awful_ CGI that found its way into it? (the surgical bot, the helicopters, some of the cars...) Did they run out of time, did someone forget about cell-shading...?


----------



## driver8

mmu1 said:
			
		

> I caught the most recent episode of Justice League by accident (I've seen a few in the past) and I have to ask - what was the deal with the simply _awful_ CGI that found its way into it? (the surgical bot, the helicopters, some of the cars...) Did they run out of time, did someone forget about cell-shading...?




Ya that was kind of weird. The bot wasnt too bad (wasnt great) but the helicopters and cars looked bad.  Others series have pmixed 3d in their shows but JLUs was just jarring..too low poly.


----------



## CrusaderX

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> The Question is also the character whom Rorschach, of the Watchmen, was based on, and I'm guessing the JLU team wanted a bit of Rorschach (a paranoid loon) in their version of the Question.




Yep.  And this JLU episode was titled "Fearful Symmetry", which was also the title from one of the Watchmen issues.


----------



## Nightfall

Alright Nightfall's comments about recent JLU and TT eps.

Firstly regarding Little Piggie: Humorous but not as much action as I was hoping for. In the end though, I was happy with it in terms of a) Circe getting nailed with a piano, B) cameos and the BB man channeling Joey Triebiani(sp). C) Batman singing. D) Medusa. Just the fact she was talking like some Compton inmate was sweet and her last comment "Free in 4010 Big Whoop!" That was awesome.

Deception: Best parts were seeing a little more of Cy's vulnerable side as well as the crush Jinx had on him. Brother Blood, scary. My thought about his new placement is that he just replaced the old Headmistress with himself via a coup. But I'm so not counting out Brother Blood. The man is certainly Raz' Al'Ghoul worthy material in this incarnation. Oh yeah both initiations for both sides on Cy were funny as hell.

Upcoming week's esp:

Fearful symmetry most CERTAINLY lays down heavy overall plot stuff for this season. I mean if they can splice and grow Supergirl, you KNOW they are going to try to do more with that. The Ulti-men thing in the upcoming season has to be more on that. Jeffery Coombs (also who voiced the new look Scarecrow in Batman), was brilliant. Probably my most favorite parts were as follows: the Kolchack homage, the Question singing pop songs while breaking in, the Questions comments in general (I go through EVERYONE's trash, being the highlight). My only gripe is just the fact that this kind of stuff annoys me. By that I mean if these "Higher ups" had ANY clue about the powers the Superguys and gals face on a daily basis, they'd be staying out of it. I mean compared to Morgan Le Fay, or even Darksied, these guys are just rank, rank amateurs. But then as Einstein said "There are two infinite things in the world. The universe and humanity stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." 

But by far, Red X ROCKS the house on every level in terms of just great fights, some unanswered questions (JUST who the HELL is Red X and how the hell did he/she get past TT security?!), and seeing Robin become almost as introspective as his mentor Batman. (Just glad he's got fewer women issues.) Funny things I liked, Star poking the hell out of Robin, Beast Boy trying to catch up. And Raven's comment "And now I smell like Rhino butt.")

So there you are. 

Next week, we get the following:

Starfire get's married. You know Robin will have a problem. Will Black Fire break up the marriage for him? Stay tuned.

So the League's fighting Modru. Wow. That's one damn powerful wizard. (Still think Rastilin could take him.  ) Anyway but apparently it's all Booster Gold's job to keep the peace while the League does their thing. I know I'm a Huge BG fan so THIS should be really good.


----------



## takyris

Woohoo!  I love Coombs (Combs, however you spell it).  I thought it was him.  Loved the character, although I felt weird about not knowing anything about his powers.  So, no face, he can sorta disguise himself, he makes smoke show up sometimes, and other than that...?  I was really not sure what he was or did.  Doesn't mean I didn't like him, though.

My wife laughed out loud when he dropped the pins.


----------



## Lord Pendragon

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> The Question is also the character whom Rorschach, of the Watchmen, was based on, and I'm guessing the JLU team wanted a bit of Rorschach (a paranoid loon) in their version of the Question.



Odd, I never found Rorschach to be paranoid.  He never seemed to see anything but the awful truth...


----------



## Nightfall

takyris said:
			
		

> My wife laughed out loud when he dropped the pins.



That's wasn't as funny to me as much as "Damn that's smart and cool!" But still pretty good part of the ep.


----------



## jarlaxlecq

Watched this little piggy, Great episode, Who would guessed that Batman was the real Velvet Fog (two points for anyone that knows that referance)

Watched Fearful Symmetry. More good stuff. I'm not familiar with the Question, is there a reason his face isn't there, or is he just really good at poker? Is his power some kind of permanent alterself? Good stuff. Also what Super Girls clone from the comics?


----------



## Chun-tzu

jarlaxlecq said:
			
		

> Who would guessed that Batman was the real Velvet Fog (two points for anyone that knows that referance)




Mel Torme. (I used to watch _Night Court_.)




> I'm not familiar with the Question, is there a reason his face isn't there, or is he just really good at poker? Is his power some kind of permanent alterself?




The Question has no powers. He's a highly skilled fighter, and the faceless mask is a gimmick. He does have a new comic coming out, though, and here's a quote from an article on Comic Book Resources.

"The Question was created by Steve Ditko for Charlton Comics back in the 60's," Veitch told CBR News when asked to describe the character. "His story was pretty basic; crusading TV journalist Vic Sage decides to become a street vigilante by donning a mask and battling corruption in Hub City (or Chicago, depending on which year we're talking). Like all the Charlton characters, the Question was batted out for abysmal page rates, but since it was batted out by Ditko it had a lovely subterranean charm to it. Vic Sage would press his belt buckle, viscous Ditko gas would envelope him and out would step the faceless and unstoppable crimefighter." 

Veitch, the author of the new series, also makes it vague in the comic as to whether or not Sage is playing with a full deck.


----------



## jarlaxlecq

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> Mel Torme. (I used to watch _Night Court_.)





Thats probably a valid referance but not the one i'm looking for, its a little ore recent then night court. Hazzah for the effort thought


----------



## Nightfall

I take it you were looking for the Seinfeld reference? (Unless Mel Torme was wrong...which I highly doubt.)

Jar,

Regarding Supergirl's clone, I don't believe they ever tried to clone her. But there was a reference to the fact she (Super girl's clone) was veiled way of mentioning the more of a "alternate grown Supergirl" that came in...I believe in the 70s. Tv Tome's log has more of that reference. Basically it was Super-girl versus "Power Woman". I do know it was before the Crisis of Infinite Earths when that happened.

[Editor's note: I found the link! Here you go.http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/GuidePageServlet/showid-3914/epid-344445/ Enjoy!]


----------



## jarlaxlecq

I was actually thinking of Zap Branigan in Futurama


----------



## Chun-tzu

jarlaxlecq said:
			
		

> I was actually thinking of Zap Branigan in Futurama




Uh, Zap Brannigan is the VELOUR Fog.


----------



## Chun-tzu

double post


----------



## ShadowX

While everyone is talking about JLU, Teen Titans has been above average all season.  With Starfire's sister returning this week it can only get better.


----------



## jarlaxlecq

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> Uh, Zap Brannigan is the VELOUR Fog.





D'oh


----------



## argo

takyris said:
			
		

> Woohoo!  I love Coombs (Combs, however you spell it).  I thought it was him.  Loved the character, although I felt weird about not knowing anything about his powers.  So, no face, he can sorta disguise himself, he makes smoke show up sometimes, and other than that...?  I was really not sure what he was or did.  Doesn't mean I didn't like him, though.
> 
> My wife laughed out loud when he dropped the pins.



AFAIK The Question has no powers, the no-face deal is a mask.  He is just a "normal" dude with some cheap smoke bombs and the will to do absouetly *anything* to uncover the truth (truth for truth's sake).  Kinda like Batman with out the kung-fu and bank account, or Mulder without the Scully and closet full of pron.   

And the "break-in" scene was totally an homage to Rosarch.  I just about hit the floor when he did that.

I also noticed the poster in his room, same design as Mulder's classic wall-art but it says "I know" instead.  I love it when a show's creators slip in little touches like that, it shows they care.  So far this season of JLU has been two hits followed by three misses, this eipsode evens the score IMHO.

And not forgeting the TT I have to say that the Red X ep is quite possibly the *best... TT... ever!* Or maybe I just like Robin too much?  Either way they sure packed a lot of action and a lot of character development into one 1/2 hour.  Good stuff.


----------



## Nightfall

ShadowX said:
			
		

> While everyone is talking about JLU, Teen Titans has been above average all season. With Starfire's sister returning this week it can only get better.



No doubt about that. TT has improved greatly since it's first season. I can't wait to see season 4.  

Argo,

Your comment about Red X is dead on. By far one of the best eps I've seen from TT. Especially in terms of fight scenes AND some amazing internal dialogue. 

Dunno about rating JLU but so far it's been a steller season 3 for Teen Titans.

(And are you 100% sure Blackfire returns? I'm not doubting you and I do remember Dini saying they'd bring her back...but I wasn't sure it was this ep.)


----------



## Nightfall

Two things I must say about the JLU ep:

Booster Gold WAS golden.  Just like I remember him from the comics

NEVER, EVER, EVER use a portable Black hole as a power source. It will ALWAYS come back to bite you in the flanks.

Didn't see much of Modru but man he was kicking ass and taking names up until the end...

(Okay three things!)


----------



## jasamcarl

I was kindof turned off by the first episode of JLU. It seemed as if it was attempting to replace the sharply drawn, if not particularly deep, original characters with a conveyer belt of cameo appearances and a cheap, childish "when we work together" theme. Basically, I thought it was being dumbed down just a bit too much, with the concilation prize for DC comic nurds being on the 'in references'. And given that i'm not really a dc guy (read marvel when i was into comics), i didn't think there was anything there for me.

But having actually tuned back in for the last two episodes, I've kindof changed my mind. They seem to be going with a 'character of the week' thing, sharply focusing on one personality in each episode. I kindof like that simply because of the diversity it offers and the ability it gives the show to  show off a lot of oldschool comic/cartoon creativity. I mean, both Booster Gold and the Question were just funny.  A pleasent surprise given that I had never heard of them.


----------



## Nightfall

Jas...how can you NOT know Booster Gold?! While admittedly I'm only a passing DC fan boy (I'm still a huge Marvel overall) and I've only had a few issues of various DC "name" comics, even I got into Booster with just a few issues!

I mean do you not read comics at all?!

Anyway that said, watched TT. Must say the twist in the middle (Black Fire taking over Tameran just to get back as Star by having her marry that ooze demon! (He was too an ooze demon!! ) was a little over the top. But the fight scene AND the rest of the ep was good. Not quite the level Red X was, but hey it wasn't THAT big a downer for me. But I had to say the best line of this ep was by Raven "Oh yeah he's cute" or something like that. I died. 

So next weekend's eps:

Amazo returns! Let's see how a dozen or so do against a possibly improved Amazo. Me if they had trouble with Mordru, I don't see how the hell they can save Lex from Amazo. But eh, we'll see.

Cyborg goes nuts thanks to BB's little "I wanna see what this button does!" escapage(sp). Gee remind me NOT to let BB near any of my electrical equipment.


----------



## Fast Learner

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Jas...how can you NOT know Booster Gold?! While admittedly I'm only a passing DC fan boy (I'm still a huge Marvel overall) and I've only had a few issues of various DC "name" comics, even I got into Booster with just a few issues!



I've read thousands of comics. Maybe tens of thousands. Never heard of Booster Gold until this ep. Looked him up on the net afterwards, and am not disappointed that I'd not heard of him. Got plenty of him in this ep.


----------



## Nightfall

*sighs* You people have no taste...


----------



## fba827

Correct me if I'm wrong.. but was the voice of Booster Gold's little robot friend the same guy that is Fry on Futurama (Billy West I think is his name).

I checked IMDB but it doesn't list that role (that I saw).

Not that it matters.. I just am fanscinated whenever I see voice actors in other roles.


----------



## Viking Bastard

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> I've read thousands of comics. Maybe tens of thousands. Never heard of Booster Gold until this ep. Looked him up on the net afterwards, and am not disappointed that I'd not heard of him. Got plenty of him in this ep.



You're tellin' me you haven't read Giffen/DeMatteis's Justice League?!?  

And you call yourself a comic fan. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





That's like if you haven't read Claremont's X-Men. Just, y'know, better.


----------



## Lord Pendragon

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> That's like if you haven't read Claremont's X-Men. Just, y'know, better.



Reading Claremont's X-Men...  It's like the comic book community's own brand of hazing.

Now Fabian's X-Men...


----------



## Nightfall

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> You're tellin' me you haven't read Giffen/DeMatteis's Justice League?!?
> 
> And you call yourself a comic fan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's like if you haven't read Claremont's X-Men. Just, y'know, better.



Thank you VB.

Glad to know SOMEONE has taste.  As well as being DC knowledgeable. 

Regarding Skeet, yes Billy West is the same Billy West that voices Fry in Futurama. I checked Tvtome.com. They generally are much better with TV shows anyway.


----------



## takyris

Dang, I loved that episode.  *Loved* that episode.

"Crowd control is an important duty, sir!  You should feel honored!"
...
"You saved those insects, sir!  You should feel proud!"
...
"I've got nothin'."

Was lucky I wasn't drinking anything when that line came out.  I mean, that line alone, plus the running Green Lantern joke, was just fantastic.  And Tracy was just cute.  The name in the credits was something like Lori Loghlin -- the new end-credit graphics made it harder to read, and I Tivo JLU on "Basic" mode, which means it's a bit grainy when paused.  Has she done any other voicework (or live work)?  She did a nice job with the role.


----------



## CrusaderX

"I've got nuthin'." cracked me up too.  

Lori Loughlin is an actress who was best known for her role on the ABC sitcom Full House.


----------



## Nightfall

Well in any case, it's thursday. In two more days...:

Cyborg goes beserk...and the League will probably get it's collective butts kicked by Amazo. Again!  Like I said before, if they could barely handle Mordu, I don't see them stopping Amazo.


----------



## Klaus

Dude, Mordru is one of the baddest arse in the DCU!

He has stolen the power of Dr. Fate (helm, cape and all)!

Before that, he stole the power of Arion, Archmage of Atlantis!

When he was after Kid Eternity (who could summon heroes - even superheroes - from the past to protect him), he killed Perseus, Pegasus, Hal Jordan and several others (who promptly returned to their timelines).

He has plagued the Justice Society in the present... AND the Legion of Superheroes in the 30th century (when magic is supposed to be dead)!


----------



## Filby

Man, I loved that last episode. It had me in stitches. I _liked_ Booster Gold before, now I _love_ him.

It was nice, too, seeing so many Golden Age heroes in action alongside the modern JL. Actually, in the scene where J'onn is sending down heroes to fight Mordru, I couldn't help but notice that many of them were original members or legacies of the Seven Soldiers of Victory... the Shining Knight, the Vigilante, Stars and STRIPE, the Crimson Avenger. Plus seeing the Thunderbolt in action in a few of the crowd scenes -- I wish they'd give us more JSAers like Johnny Thunder, and give them more screen time.

The best part, in my opinion, was the conversation between Booster and Ralph Dibny, the Elongated Man... another nice nod to the 80s League. I had just been introduced to most of the Giffen/deMatteis JLAers (Booster, Ralph and his wife Sue, the Blue Beetle, Captain Atom, Fire, Maxwell Lord, and L-RON) when I read their excellent _Formerly Known as the Justice League_ earlier this year, and the tribute here just cracked me up. Booster and Ralph are talking when Batman comes along and tells them that, well...

Ralph: "We don't need two stretchy guys." This is so not fair. I realize Plastic Guy is in the League too, I'm not dissing that guy. But one day I disguised myself as a vase for three days!
Booster: No you didn't.
Ralph: Okay, maybe not. Who'd want to anyway? But I'm a detective, so I'm like Plastic Man and Batman rolled into one!
Booster: Is there any chance you could stop complaining for _five minutes_?


----------



## CrusaderX

Filby said:
			
		

> Ralph: "We don't need two stretchy guys." This is so not fair. I realize Plastic Guy is in the League too, I'm not dissing that guy. But one day I disguised myself as a vase for three days!
> Booster: No you didn't.
> Ralph: Okay, maybe not. Who'd want to anyway? But I'm a detective, so I'm like Plastic Man and Batman rolled into one!
> Booster: Is there any chance you could stop complaining for _five minutes_?




And then when the Elongated Man got called into action...

"Maybe they needed a vase?"

HA!


----------



## Klaus

Poor Ralph... He didn't deserve the treatment he got in DC's Identity Crisis...


----------



## Filby

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> And then when the Elongated Man got called into action...
> 
> "Maybe they needed a vase?"
> 
> HA!




The squeaky wheel, my friend. The squeaky wheel.



			
				Klaus said:
			
		

> Poor Ralph... He didn't deserve the treatment he got in DC's Identity Crisis...




Oh, geez, yeah. Ralph and Sue made a great team, and I really liked her in _Formerly Known yada yada_. They were like Hawkman and Hawkwoman, except only one of them had powers, and they were funnier, and... well, okay, they weren't really like the Hawks. But I still miss Sue. 

I mean, I give them ten years before they ressurect Sue, but geez. It stinks that they offed her.


----------



## Nightfall

Klaus said:
			
		

> Dude, Mordru is one of the baddest arse in the DCU!
> 
> He has stolen the power of Dr. Fate (helm, cape and all)!
> 
> Before that, he stole the power of Arion, Archmage of Atlantis!
> 
> When he was after Kid Eternity (who could summon heroes - even superheroes - from the past to protect him), he killed Perseus, Pegasus, Hal Jordan and several others (who promptly returned to their timelines).
> 
> He has plagued the Justice Society in the present... AND the Legion of Superheroes in the 30th century (when magic is supposed to be dead)!



I know that Klaus/Claudio. The fact is though whom is the greater threat/power? Amazo or Mordru?


----------



## Klaus

Hmm.. Seeing that Mordru can pop Amazo into another dimension from afar, I'd vote for Mordru. Unless they let Amazo take a peek at Dr. Fate. And if he *can* imitate Dr. Fate just by looking at him, Professor Ivo had some *serious * brain mojo goin' on...


----------



## Viking Bastard

Nightfall said:
			
		

> I know that Klaus/Claudio. The fact is though whom is the greater threat/power? Amazo or Mordru?



 I know they really vamped Amazo up in his Justice League appearance, 
 but c'mon, even then Mordru could kick his arse with his eyes closed. I 
 mean, it's frickin' Mordru.


----------



## Chun-tzu

I'd also classify Mordru as the greater threat. Mordru was originally an enemy of the Legion of Super-Heroes, back when the Legion was THE most powerful team around (20+ active members with several Superman-class members). And they were still never a match for him in power.

If you go back far enough to the first Legion reboot, history was changed when Mon-El destroyed another uber-villain, the Time Trapper. But it turned out that the Time Trapper was the only thing keeping Mordru in check, and with him destroyed, Mordru easily conquered the universe. The only way to beat him was to transform Glorith into the new Time Trapper.

Amazo's bad ass, but he's (by definition!) no more powerful than the JLA.

(Speaking of combined power, I got a kick out of "kind of" seeing the Composite Superman again. I wish he'd return as a super-villain!)


----------



## Nightfall

After these arguements I believe I can equate these two to other "villians" in Marvel universe:

Mordru = Dormandu

Amazo = Apocalyse

Therefore I know who is stronger. Cause in fight even I know Apocalyse will get his ass handed him to by Dormandru.


----------



## jarlaxlecq

This was one of the best episodes so far and it didn't even have any of the "main" character for more then a sec or two. Goes to show that unlike some people that think alot of these characters are only 2nd string and not worthy of carring the main crews capes, their wrong. They can be just as interesting if the story is there.


----------



## Viking Bastard

Am I the only one who thought of my favourite Buffy episode 
 when watching the Booster Gold episode, The Zeppo?


----------



## paulewaug

Nah, that episode reminded me allot of the Buffy-Zander episode too.

Super world threatening bad guy and we only see glimpses of that battle while I "support staff hero" does his own side trek with a huge outcome all of it's own, and being funny while doing it. 


Also I see Amazo as he has been presented in the JL animated series as being Very much like Marvel's "Super Adaptoid."

Although Apocalypse doesn’t seem too far off the way he left last time.

(I really miss the version of Apocalypse as seen at the end of the X-men Evolution animated series.)


----------



## Hand of Vecna

Nightfall said:
			
		

> After these arguements I believe I can equate these two to other "villians" in Marvel universe:
> 
> Mordru = Dormandu
> 
> Amazo = Apocalyse
> 
> Therefore I know who is stronger. Cause in fight even I know Apocalyse will get his ass handed him to by Dormandru.




Actually, AMAZO's Marvel equivalent would be the Super Adaptoid (and the _JL/JLU_ AMAZO looks more like the Super-Adaptoid than the comic version of AMAZO).  Both are androids created by Evil Scientists (AIM made Super-Adaptoid Prof. Ivo made AMAZO) with the abiliy to mimic the abilities of superheroes in order to help their creator take over the world.  AMAZO developing something akin to true sapience is something, to the best of my recolection, seen only in the 'toon.

I'd say Baron Mordo's a closer parallel to Mordru, but that's largely b/c (A) Dr. Strange is the analogue to Dr. Fate, and (B) I've no idea who Dormandu is (unless you meant Dormammu, Lord of the Dark Dimension... in which case, yes, I'd agree with ya there).

And, yes, the _X-Men: Evolution_ version of Apocalypse kicked much booty, especially the fact that he was actually dressed like a Pharaoh for part of the time


----------



## Klaus

For quite a long time, Amazo only had the powers of the original JLA. In post-Crisis continuity, that'd be:

- Green Power Ring (Hal Jordan GL)
- Superstrength, shapeshift, telepathy, density control, etc., etc., etc. (J'onn J'onnz... twinky martian)
- Superspeed (Barry Allen Flash)
- Aquatic Telepathy, Superstrength, Dense Skin, Deep Sight (Aquaman)
- Sonic Scream (Black Canary)

He was sentient in a "robotic" kinda way. In JLA: The Nail, Barry singlehandedly defeats Amazo by thinking creatively, as only a human could: he vibrates his hand through Amazo's head and takes out his robotic brain.

Only recently did they gove "adaptation" powers to Amazo (although he still looks corny, with the pointy ears and skullcap).


----------



## Hand of Vecna

I vaguely recall having read a story some years ago that featured AMAZO, and he had the ability to mimic the powers of any member of the Justice League.  Wave after wave of JL members were sent after him, and he just kept copying more and more powers, until Superman, realizing the android's parameters, announced that the Justice League was disbanded.  With no Justice League, there were no Justice League members; with no Justice League members, there was no one to copy powers from, so AMAZO lost all the powers it had gained, and was stuck solely with its own measely abilities.  It was quickly taken out afterwards.


----------



## Klaus

Yeah, that crazy-wonky logic was the work of Joe Kelly in JLA (ugh... Obsidian Age traumas resurfacing...). It was Ray Palmer (The Atom) who suggested that to Superman.


----------



## Viking Bastard

Klaus said:
			
		

> Only recently did they gove "adaptation" powers to Amazo (although he still looks corny, with the pointy ears and skullcap).



I believe it was early in Morrison's JLA in a story which didn't feature 
Amazo except in the first couple of pages.

(Crisis Times Five, perhaps?)


----------



## Klaus

Quite possible. I missed the first two parts of Crisis Times Five... (boy, was that confusing!)

Y'know, I'm *this* close to selling my JLA, Nightwing, JSA and Titans collections...


----------



## Viking Bastard

Why?


----------



## Nightfall

Vecna,

I did mean Dormammu. I just can't spell ole Match Head's name.  

Anyway we got a new thread folks. Talk there.


----------



## Klaus

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> Why?



 1) They take too much space;

2) I lost the habit of rereading old comics;

3) Obsidian Age, Wally West joining the Elite, the new Leaguers (Faith, Major Disaster, "Apache Chief") are dreadfull, John Stewart is totally uncharacteristic, Batman and Wonder Woman having a thing...

4) Being totally underwhelmed by Joe Kelly and Doug Mahke...


----------



## Chun-tzu

Klaus said:
			
		

> 4) Being totally underwhelmed by Joe Kelly and Doug Mahke...




But you know Kurt Busiek (writer of the Avengers vs JLA mini) takes over with #107, right? Most JLA fans are looking forward to it, I think.

BTW, I like Manitou Raven. Not that he's necessarily JLA material, but he's got potential.


----------



## Viking Bastard

Klaus said:
			
		

> 1) They take too much space;
> 
> 2) I lost the habit of rereading old comics;



 For the moment, perhaps, but in a couple of years?



> 3) Obsidian Age, Wally West joining the Elite, the new Leaguers (Faith, Major Disaster, "Apache Chief") are dreadfull, John Stewart is totally uncharacteristic, Batman and Wonder Woman having a thing...



 Well, I automatically assumed you didn't buy Kelly's run. That also isn't
 something you sell, it's something you throw away. 

 Plus, I was more interested in why your could sell something as fantastic
 as, say, JSA. Now, I myself am not liking Johns' Titans much and I can
 understand people well not liking the current stories in Nightwing (even
 though I'm liking 'em a lot). But JSA? The most consistantly good classic
 style superhero action title on the market?



> 4) Being totally underwhelmed by Joe Kelly and Doug Mahke...



 I wasn't as much underwhelmed as bored out of my wits.

 But lighten up. Kurt Busiek is taking over. w00t! I just hope he doesn't
 fall into the soap opera pit too much (as he sometimes does).


----------



## Klaus

Yeah, Kurt Busiek *is* a keen writer.

Now, of only they'd snag Bryan Hitch away from Ultimates... 

Currently I'm starting to read the brazilian editions of Teen Titans and Outsiders (they're about to release issues #3 here).

The thing with JSA is that I thought it was amazing, but it became increasingly hard to track down issues...

I wonder if DC could start a membership program like CrossGen's ComicsOnTheWeb ($12 annual fee and you could read every CG comic in online format).

Back in the day I collected the brazilian editions of DC comics. They were half-sized, but each comic had 4-6 stories into them. I had comics dating back to pre-Crisis era (1983 comic where Superman and Supergirl battled WarWorld, J'onn J'onnz and the Spectre!) all they way down to the Brainiac 13 storyline when Ed McGuiness started taking over. But I was moving out of my parents' place and I had to sell my collection...


----------



## Viking Bastard

Well, you could always go the illegal route, as such. DC++ or similar.

 It's what I use to get older comics (only way to do so, here).


----------

