# Converting Al-Qadim and Oriental Adventures creatures



## Shade (Apr 25, 2008)

This thread continues my idea of “cooperative conversions”, converting a series of monsters from similar sources. For this thread, we will be focusing on monsters that first appeared in the Al-Qadim and Oriental Adventures (including Kara-Tur) settings.

What I will do is first post the creature’s original stats and flavor text. Then, I will post a basic outline of the things I think it needs, and then I will give you an opportunity to suggest stats and ideas on how powers and abilities should work. Then, I will add more to it and we will continue to discuss it until I feel it’s done and time to move on to the next. As we work on these creatures, they will be posted in this thread, and after 10 conversions are complete they will be added to the Creature Catalog. You may comment on monsters already finished, of course.


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## Shade (Apr 25, 2008)

*Debbi * 
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical and subtropical/desert
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Scavenger
INTELLIGENCE: Low (7)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-8
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 15, Cl 6
HIT DICE: 1+1
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Induce fear
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S (2' tall)
MORALE: Unsteady (5-7)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 65

The debbi is an unusual breed of desert scavenger capable of forcing creatures much larger than itself into flight from watering holes and from their prey because of its ability to instill magical fear. They are hateful and selfish creatures with not an ounce of mercy in them.

Smaller than most useful dogs, the two-foot tall debbi is a hairy creature halfway between a baboon and a hyena. It has the snout, head, and powerful jaws of a bone-cracking scavenger, with large ears and the body of a nimble monkey. They have sharp fangs but use them only for fierce grimacing displays, not for biting. Their small hands are capable of manipulating tools.

Combat: A debbi has the power to put all other animals and men around it to flight through its primitive magical abilities.  The debbi can create fear by stamping its feet in a slow rhythm and calling down magical power which makes its fur crackle and spark. The chill in the air and the magical unease that it conjures up seep into all nearby animals. The result is that any creatures within 20 yards of a debbi when it begins its screeching and stamping are affected as per a fear spell once per turn. This fear lasts for two rounds per debbi in the pack. Usually all the debbi in a pack bring on their fear effects at the same time, forcing multiple saving throws by all nearby creatures and thus bettering their odds of driving every creature away. If a creature makes its saving throw versus a particular debbi, it will not be affected by its power for at least the next hour; thereafter, it must save again normally. The debbi uses this ability to drive other creatures away from recent kills and from watering holes so that it may eat and drink what they have worked for. All debbi are immune to all forms of magical fear, and they are very aware of when the effect of their magic wears off.

If forced into melee, a debbi uses a simple club, striking for 1-4 points of damage on a successful hit. Generally, however, they attempt to flee if faced with serious opposition. Almost all debbi are cowards at heart; their magic is bluster. They are excellent climbers and generally flee for the palms when in doubt. They throw rocks and other missile weapons from their treetop vantage point, but they don't have the strength to hurl anything large or dangerous enough to do damage to human-sized creatures.  These missiles may distract a spell-caster, however.

Habitat/Society: All other desert creatures despise the debbi, for it takes what they have worked for and leaves them fleeing across the hot sands. Debbi live a precarious existence, however, because they have trouble defending themselves from predators at night, when the debbi rest. Although all might benefit from cooperation in watching for danger then, they are too selfish to look out for their fellow pack members, but they are also too weak to escape a determined stalker like a cheetah or lion. As a result, debbi are often slain at night, when they can be taken unawares by the predators they stole from during the day.  

They will also harass campsites at dawn and dusk, trying to get mounts to scatter, searching packs for food, and even making off with meals left unattended for an instant when the campers flee the debbi's crackling magical fear aura. Even if there is no readily available food, the pack delights in tearing up anything it can before the owners return.

Debbi packs are regulated by a strict pecking order. The strong take what they want from the others and abuse them mercilessly. The young are often mistreated by their elders if their mothers are not constantly watchful.

Debbi are too barbaric to understand the value of treasure of any kind. They value nothing they can't eat. They can, however, sometimes be bribed with food.

Debbi who have taken over a rich hunting area or a clear watering hole then proceed to dirty their home with refuse, uneaten kills, and offal. Debbi always foul an oasis just before leaving. Drinking from these polluted waters forces characters to make a Constitution check at -4 or suffer from intestinal parasites.

Ecology: The hair of this creature may be made into a talisman and enchanted to cause others to fear the wielder as per a fear spell once per day. For this reason they are often hunted by desert shamans and even wizards from the great metropolises. The unblemished hide of a debbi can fetch up to 200 gp in the marketplace.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium 13 (1992).


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## freyar (Apr 25, 2008)

Huh, I could see magical beast or monstrous humanoid.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Apr 25, 2008)

I'm thinking magical beast.


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## Shade (Apr 25, 2008)

Since it is between a baboon and a hyena, here are their ability scores.

Baboon: Str 15, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
Hyena: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6

They seem more agile than strong, so I'd recommend the hyena's Str and Dex.

Int is Low (5-7).

So maybe Str 14, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 13, Cha 8?


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## freyar (Apr 26, 2008)

Magical beast it is, and those stats sound good.

Want to make the fear effect something like the shadow mastiff's or yeth hound's bay?  (Those make you panicked for 2d4 rounds and are also sonic.)  We can just reduce the range to 60ft.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 26, 2008)

That sounds good. How about we make the weapon an actual club? 

Also, a racial bonus to Intimidate sounds reasonable.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2008)

Club and Intimidate bonus sound about right.

Stamp (Su):  When a debbi stamps its feet in a special rhythm, it calls upon a primitive magical energy. All creatures within a 60-foot spread must succeed on a DC X Will save or become panicked for 2d4 rounds. This is a sonic mind-affecting fear effect. Whether or not the save is successful, an affected creature is immune to the same debbi's stamp for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 28, 2008)

I dunno if I like the negative Charisma score, since this creature is all about scaring the bejeezus out of people. The krenshar is pretty similar (hyena-like morphology, magical beast, fear effect), and it has a Cha of 13. So I think that we either need to give it a +1 Cha mod, or a racial bonus to the save DC.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2008)

Since we were discussing a bonus to Intimidate as well, I'm all for the higher Cha.


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2008)

Agreed. Let's go to Cha 12?


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



> They throw rocks and other missile weapons from their treetop vantage point, but they don't have the strength to hurl anything large or dangerous enough to do damage to human-sized creatures. These missiles may distract a spell-caster, however.




Suggestions?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 29, 2008)

Option 1: They throw rocks. Forget this nonsense about nothing enough to damage people; ours are fairly strong. They shouldn't be that good of weapons, though. Maybe 1d3+Str. Mention in their tactics that, when working in groups, some may ready their actions to throw a rock at a spellcaster.

Option 2: Stick to the no damage doing; in this case they throw sand or excrement, aiming for the eyes. Creatures effected by this ranged touch attack must make a Reflex save or be dazzled for 1d4 rounds and have to make a Concentration check (DC 10+ spell level) to cast.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2008)

While both look good and capture the spirit of the ability, I think I prefer #1.

Anyone else have a preference?


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## freyar (Apr 29, 2008)

I'd go with option 1 with 1d3+Str damage.  I agree that they're just smart enough to target spellcasters, given their magical sensitivity.


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## talinthalas (Apr 29, 2008)

I know I am joining in late but I would go with option #1 as well.


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## freyar (Apr 29, 2008)

Hi, talinthalas, welcome!  Feel free to join in any conversions you like!

Do we want to add any more SAs?  Should the bit about the hair being used as a fear talisman be an ability or just flavor text?


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Hi, talinthalas, welcome!  Feel free to join in any conversions you like!




Yeah, feel free to drop in any time.  



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Do we want to add any more SAs?  Should the bit about the hair being used as a fear talisman be an ability or just flavor text?




The fear talisman can probably be flavor text.



> A debbi has the power to put all other animals and men around it to flight through its primitive magical abilities. The debbi can create fear by stamping its feet in a slow rhythm and calling down magical power which makes its fur crackle and spark. The chill in the air and the magical unease that it conjures up seep into all nearby animals. The result is that any creatures within 20 yards of a debbi when it begins its screeching and stamping are affected as per a fear spell once per turn. *This fear lasts for two rounds per debbi in the pack. Usually all the debbi in a pack bring on their fear effects at the same time, forcing multiple saving throws by all nearby creatures and thus bettering their odds of driving every creature away.* If a creature makes its saving throw versus a particular debbi, it will not be affected by its power for at least the next hour; thereafter, it must save again normally. The debbi uses this ability to drive other creatures away from recent kills and from watering holes so that it may eat and drink what they have worked for. All debbi are immune to all forms of magical fear, and they are very aware of when the effect of their magic wears off.




It looks like we should increase the duration (and possibly the save DC) if multiple debbi stamp in unison.

Also, I'll add immunity to fear to the SQ line.



> Debbi who have taken over a rich hunting area or a clear watering hole then proceed to dirty their home with refuse, uneaten kills, and offal. Debbi always foul an oasis just before leaving. Drinking from these polluted waters forces characters to make a Constitution check at -4 or suffer from intestinal parasites.




Should we write up intestinal parasites as a disease, or just say they befoul water with filth fever or another existing disease?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 29, 2008)

Filth fever is a good catch-all. And saves space.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2008)

So just state in the flavor text that watering holes visited by debbis are often contaminated with a contact form of filth fever?

Any thoughts on increasing the duration (and possibly the save DC) if multiple debbi stamp in unison?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 30, 2008)

Ingested works better than contact for a debbi's filth fever, methinks.

I agree that the duration should increase per debbi stamping. Perhaps a save DC boost of +1 per two over the first?

Demiurge out.


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## talinthalas (Apr 30, 2008)

I agree I would have the filth fever be ingested.  Depending on what CR we decide to go with might be a good way to determine how many Debbi you need to increase the DC of the disease.

Also I posted a version of the Silat in the Unconverted Al-qadlim Monsters thread if anyone wants to check it out and critique or make changes to it.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2008)

Oops!  I meant ingested.  I somehow managed to gaffe on poison in two threads simultaneously.  

Target CR should be 1 or less.  I think the save DC boost of +1 per two over the first outta work.


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## talinthalas (Apr 30, 2008)

If the target CR is 1 or less then I think the +1/2 Debbi is perfect.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 4 (+8 Climb, +8 Intimidate)

Feats: 1

Challenge Rating: 1?

Advancement: x

A debbi stands 2 feet tall and weighs x pounds. 

Debbi speak x. (or do not speak?)

Rock Throwing (Ex): The range increment is x feet for a debbi's thrown rocks, and the maximum range is x feet.


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## talinthalas (Apr 30, 2008)

Skills: Climb +11, Intimidate +10, Listen +4, Spot +4
Feat: Alertness
CR: 1
Advancement: 2-5 Small; 6-9 Medium
A debbi stands 2 feet tall and weighs 35 pounds. 
Debbi do not speak
Rock Throwing (Ex): The range increment is 10 feet for a debbi's thrown rocks, and the maximum range is 50 feet.


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## freyar (May 1, 2008)

Wow, this all looks pretty good.  Did we agree to increase the fear duration for extra debbis?  Say 1 round per two extra debbis?


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## demiurge1138 (May 1, 2008)

With an Int of 6, they should at least understand a language. Probably Common.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (May 1, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> With an Int of 6, they should at least understand a language. Probably Common.
> 
> Demiurge out.



 Fair enough, but they may not have the right vocal apparatus.  How about we go with "Debbis understand Common but cannot speak"?


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## Shade (May 1, 2008)

Updated.

All done?


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## talinthalas (May 1, 2008)

Looks good to me. Let's printi it and move on to the next one.


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## freyar (May 1, 2008)

Yeah, I'd agree.  Stick a fork in it!


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## talinthalas (May 1, 2008)

Here is what I have for the Silat let me know what you think

SILATS
Large Monstrous Humanoid (Shapeshifter)

Hit Dice: 7d8+21 (52hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft
AC: 17 (-1 size, +0 dex, +8 natural)
Attacks: 2 Claws +10; Bite +5
Damage: 2 Claws 1d4+4; Bite 2d4+4
Face/Reach: 10 ft by 10 ft/ 15 ft
Special Attacks: Polymorph Self
Special Qualities: DR 5/Iron, Regeneration 5, Immunity to Poison, Immunity to Mind Influencing Effects, Darkvision 60 ft.
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +7, Will +8
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 15
Skills: Bluff +10, Gather Information +8, Intimidate +8, Listen +7, Spot +7
Feats: ?
Climate/Terrain: Any land
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 11
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Any Chaotic
Advancement: By character class


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## freyar (May 1, 2008)

Interesting, though I need to see the original version to comment...


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## Shade (May 1, 2008)

I'll add the original text when I've got the time.  Doubtful today, but possibly tomorrow.

EDIT:  I think we're in the wrong thread for the silat.   

EDIT TO THE EDIT:  Nope, just me.  I mixed up my silats with my silatics.  What are the odds of requests for two such similarly-named critters at the same time in two different threads?   On the other hand, they're about as similar as ants and antelopes.


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## Shade (May 2, 2008)

*Silats* 
Young 
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land 
FREQUENCY: Uncommon 
ORGANIZATION: Solitary 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night 
DIET: Carnivore 
INTELLIGENCE: Very (11-12) 
TREASURE: R 
ALIGNMENT: Any chaotic 
NO. APPEARING: 1 
ARMOR CLASS: 3 
MOVEMENT: 15 
HIT DICE: 7 
THAC0: 10 (13) 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 8-11/8-11/9-15 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below 
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 30% 
SIZE: L (10' tall) 
MORALE: Elite (14) 
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 5,000 


Adult
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Rare to very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary or family
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: High to Exceptional (13-16)
TREASURE: W (D)
ALIGNMENT: Any chaotic
NO. APPEARING: 1 or 3-9
ARMOR CLASS: 0 or -3, Matriarch
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 9 or 12, Matriarch
THAC0: 8 (11) or 6 (9), Matriarch
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 8-11/8-11/9-15
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 55%
SIZE: L-G (12-15' tall)
MORALE: Elite (14)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 10,000
Matriarch: 17,000

Silats are a race of female, shapeshifting hags that roam both the wilderness and cities of Zakhara in magical disguise, searching for food.

In their true form, a silat appears to be a giant female humanoid with pale green or blue skin and curved ram's horns curling from each side of her head. The size of the horns depends on the silat's age, growing a complete spiral every century or so. The hair is usually the same color as the skin, but of a darker hue.  Their teeth and nails look like yellowed ivory, but are harder and sharper than obsidian.

In both their polymorphed and their natural shape, silats wear rags that barely cover their bent and wrinkled forms.

Combat: Although the shapeshifting abilities of silats vary with age, all possess strong magic resistance and superhuman Strength (19). They attack physically with their daggerlike claws and a vicious bite. Silats can only be affected by magical or iron weapons and regenerate at a rate of 1 hp/round. They are unaffected by poison or mind-influencing spells (illusions, charms, ESP, and the like).

Younger silats (up to a century old) can polymorph all but one part of their form (usually the feet) three times/day. They will always take great pains to hide these appendages by covering them with rags. Once silats reach adulthood (one to five centuries old), they can fully polymorph self at will. In addition, adult silats can cast polymorph other three times/day. The most ancient of silats (over five centuries old) are revered as matriarchs. They can polymorph self and polymorph other (-4 on opponent's save) at will and can polymorph any object three times/day.

Neutral and good silats use their polymorphing abilities to move unnoticed and unbothered through human and demihuman society, where they are most commonly (and unknowingly)encountered. Evil silats use their powers to attract victims, frequently posing as helpless old women in need (or flirtatious maidens) in order to lure unsuspecting youths to a deserted location.

Habitat/Society: Silats are typically solitary creatures. They can be found just about anywhere in Zakharan society. While hunting for food, silats will pose as hideously ugly human females to discourage encounters.

In the wilderness, adult silats may be encountered alone, or with their family. Silats propagate their species by mating with ogre magi. Male offspring of such a union are ogre magi, while the female offspring are silats. Should a family be encountered, it will consist of an adult or matriarch silat with 1-4 sons (ogre magi) and 1-4 daughters (young silats).

Common to all silats is a desire to be left alone, and failing that, to be treated with respect. Every village or town has a story of a braggart who insulted a decrepit crone one day and was found sporting a donkey's tail the next. Even an evil silat will not attack one who bows respectfully and hails her politely with a friendly greeting. Those displaying refined manners and proper etiquette are rarely eaten and more often are helped on a quest or journey.

Ecology: Much of a silat's nocturnal activity cycle is spent in search of food. Neutral and good silats dine only on animal meat, while evil silats prefer human or demihuman flesh.  In spite of their parasitic or predatory relationship with human society, many humans and demihumans regard them with ambivalence, partly out of fear, but mostly because they are known to be extremely helpful to those approaching them in the proper manner.

Unfortunately, the "proper manner" of greeting a silat varies from individual to individual. With some, a polite salutation, such as "Peace upon you and your family!" may suffice. For others, a visitor might be required to perform a few minor chores, like tidying the silat's lair or combing her tangled hair. A few eccentric silats are known to only help visitors who perform the exact opposite of what was requested, polymorphing others into an embarrassing or ugly shape.

From MC13 (1992).


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## freyar (May 2, 2008)

Well, seems like talinthalas has a reasonable start, though I'd like to up the natural attack damage.  Should we do these up in 2-3 versions depending on age?

Edit: Then again, I could almost see doing these as Giants rather than Monstrous Humanoids, given that they mate with Ogre Magi, just to be a little unexpected.


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## talinthalas (May 5, 2008)

I was trying to decide if we should do 2 or 3 versions or if we should just do the other two versions through advancement.  I was torn on whether to go with Giant or Monstrous Humanoid .  I am all for them doing more damage.


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## Shade (May 5, 2008)

I'm leaning towards monstrous humanoid, because they seem more closely related to hags.

And yes, I think we need multiple versions since the powers change.


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## talinthalas (May 5, 2008)

So we would have 3 Large Monstrous Humanoids (Shapeshifter)
With HD of 7, 9, and 12.  So we can use the stat block I have with some minor alterations for the young one and then advance it for the other two.


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## freyar (May 5, 2008)

Ok, let's start with the young one and go with monstrous humanoid.  talinthalas has Str 19, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 15 for them.  Seems reasonable to me.  I'd like to bump the claw and bite damage, though.  Maybe 1d6+Str and 1d10+1-1/2 Str respectively? (Can't remember: can secondary attacks get Str-and-a-half?)


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## Shade (May 5, 2008)

Secondary attacks default to half Str, but special cases can allow full Str or Str and 1/2 (such as some creature's tail slap attacks).

It looks like only mental ability scores should change between the three types.  Natural armor improves.

It looks like fast healing is probably more appropriate than regeneration here.

A straight translation of DR is x/magic or cold iron, but I'm content with sticking with just cold iron.  Thoughts?


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## freyar (May 5, 2008)

How about Claw 1d6+Str and Bite 1d10 +1/2 Str, then?

Agreed on the rest.  Maybe DR 5 for the young one and DR 10 for adult and matriarch?


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## talinthalas (May 5, 2008)

See this is why I wanted to get others to look at this it is so much nicer to create monsters by committee.  I agree with both of you ideas.


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## demiurge1138 (May 6, 2008)

Agreed to DR values and material.

We'd want to list a "powerful bite" SA to account for the Str x 1.5 on the bite attack. Which means we could give the bite some other power along with that. 

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (May 6, 2008)

Good idea for powerful bite.  The original damage is pretty high.


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## Shade (May 6, 2008)

Added young silat to Homebrews.


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## demiurge1138 (May 6, 2008)

Do we want to give them change shape or alternate form? I never can remember the differences between those two...

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (May 6, 2008)

No kidding!

Alternate Form
A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature: 


The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well. 
The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature). 
The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. 
The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form. 
The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form. 
The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution. 
The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores. 
Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses. 
The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components. 
The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise. 
Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped. 

Change Shape
A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using change shape reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use change shape to take the form of a creature with a template. Changing shape results in the following changes to the creature: 


The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. 
The creature loses the natural weapons and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature). 
The creature gains the natural weapons, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. 
The creature retains all other special attacks and qualities of its original form, except for breath weapons and gaze attacks. 
The creature retains the ability scores of its original form. 
Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses. 
The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components. 
The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise. 
Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and viceversa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.


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## talinthalas (May 6, 2008)

From the way I read the original creature description I would go with Alternate form as there doesn't seem to be a limit on what creature they can become.  Other then their feet stay normal.


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## demiurge1138 (May 6, 2008)

Both of them are listed as "one or more specific forms". I say Change Shape. That way, it keeps its stats, and having a little old lady being monstrously strong strikes me as properly myffic. Plus, we can say that it acts as Change Shape, except the disguise bonus is decreased, since they retain one of their monstrous characteristics.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (May 7, 2008)

I'm with Change Shape.  Change Shape also allows changing into a "specific type" of creature, which is more flexible than Alternate Form.


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## talinthalas (May 7, 2008)

Whoops I think I misread Alternate Form the first time Change Shape is what I should have selected.


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## freyar (May 7, 2008)

Ok, that's decided. 

For updating homebrews, I think we agreed upthread that the young silat should have DR 5/cold iron.  Also, from the original text, it should have fast healing 1.  Beyond change shape (with a reduced bonus to disguise checks), I don't think the young silat should have any other special abilities.  Anyone else?


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## Shade (May 7, 2008)

> Younger silats (up to a century old) can polymorph all but one part of their form (usually the feet) three times/day. They will always take great pains to hide these appendages by covering them with rags.




Here's the doppelganger's change shape ability for inspiration:

Change Shape (Su): A young silat can assume the shape of any Small or Medium humanoid. In humanoid form, the doppelganger loses its natural attacks. A doppelganger can remain in its humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but a doppelganger reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability reveals its natural form.

Skills: A doppelganger has a +4 racial bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks.

*When using its change shape ability, a doppelganger gets an additional +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. If it can read an opponent’s mind, it gets a further +4 circumstance bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks.


Are there any other 3e precedents for shape change limited to uses per day?   Do we limit them to humanoids (and maybe monstrous humanoids and giants)?


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## freyar (May 7, 2008)

Let's make sure we reduce that disguise bonus, even if we have to put in special text to do it.  I'd say allow monstrous humanoids and giants as well and also Large size.  I don't know about use per day limits, but it's easy enough to add if we want.


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## talinthalas (May 8, 2008)

I agree with the reduction in disguise bonus to simulate that they can't change their entire form as a young, and then we should give them the full bonus as an adult an matriarch


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## freyar (May 8, 2008)

Ok, here's what I think.  We should use the normal change shape for adult and matriarch silats at will.  I think the forms allowed should be Medium & Large humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and giants (not so sure about Small for these).  I also think these should get the racial +4 Disguise bonus like the doppelganger; after all, they kind of operate the same way.  For the young silat, I suggest this:

Diminished Change Shape (Su): A young silat can assume the shape of any Medium or Large humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or giant three times per day.  This works exactly as the Change Shape special ability, except that the young silat cannot transform the appearance of her feet.  The young silat therefore only gains a bonus of +6 to Disguise checks when using this ability to disguise itself.


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## Shade (May 8, 2008)

Looks great!


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## Shade (May 9, 2008)

Updated (with flavor text).

Skills: 30
Common hag skills include Concentration, Craft or Knowledge (any one), Hide, Listen, Spot, Swim.  A few have Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate.

Feats: 3
Common feats for hags include Alertness, Blind-Fight, Great Fortitude

Challenge Rating: 5?

Treasure: Standard like most hags?

Advancement: By character class?

Silats speak Common and Giant?


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## freyar (May 9, 2008)

I think I'd go with Bluff, Disguise, Knowledge (any), Listen, Spot, all at 6 ranks.

Feats: Alertness, Persuasive, either Blind-Fight or Great Fort.

Maybe even as low as CR 4.

The rest is good.


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## Shade (May 12, 2008)

Updated.

How's it looking?


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## freyar (May 12, 2008)

Pretty good.  Weight: 400 lb?  That's scaling up the height of an annis hag.

Let's put in some HD advancement, too, actually, up to one less than the HD of an adult silat.  So maybe 5-8 HD (Large) or by character class?


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## Shade (May 12, 2008)

Sounds good.  Updated.


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## freyar (May 12, 2008)

Noticed one more thing, then I'm ready to move to the adult: let's make the family organization (1-4 plus 1-4 ogre magi and 1 adult silat).  Also, just noticed, in the third to last paragraph of the flavor text, it should be "monstrous feet" instead of "monstrous feat."


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## talinthalas (May 12, 2008)

Awesome guys.  I am very happy with how this turned out.  On to the Adult.


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## Shade (May 12, 2008)

Great!

Let's see what differs for the adult.

They have 2 more Hit Dice.

They're smarter:  High to Exceptional (13-16).

Damage is the same, so I'd assume Str is unchanged.

Height is 12-15' tall, which is still within the Large size range.

Spell resistance is better (55%).



> Once silats reach adulthood (one to five centuries old), they can fully polymorph self at will. In addition, adult silats can cast polymorph other three times/day.


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## freyar (May 13, 2008)

Back on the young silat, I goofed up.  Advancement should just have been 8HD (Large).  I also meant for organization to be solitary or family (...).

For the adult, leave physical stats the same and increase mental by 2 or 4?  Maybe Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 19?

Ditch the "diminished" part and just give them Change Shape.


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## demiurge1138 (May 13, 2008)

Baleful polymorph as an Sp?


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## freyar (May 13, 2008)

Yup, 3/day, CL 9?  Not much else to do.  We need one more feat.  Deceitful would be the cheap one, but not nearly so effective as Multiattack would be.  We can put 2 more ranks in each skill and go with Knowledge (any two) if we stick to Int 14.

Edit: Seems like we should also improve natural armor to +11.


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## Shade (May 13, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## demiurge1138 (May 13, 2008)

I vote for Multiattack over Deceitful.


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## Shade (May 13, 2008)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: x or by character class

Do we want to improve the DR or fast healing?


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## demiurge1138 (May 13, 2008)

Bump DR to 10/cold iron and amp fast healing from 1 to 3? It didn't gain much offensively in the transition to adulthood, so let's improve its defenses.

10-18 HD (Large), 19-27 HD (Huge)? Or do we want to do anything special?

I say CR 6. That makes it easy to design encounters with them and juveniles (CR 4) and ogre magi (CR 8).


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## freyar (May 13, 2008)

Well, the original text did have fast healing 1 for all three types, but I see the need to bump it.  Also agreed on DR 10 and CR 6.  

For advancement, the matriarch is going to come in at 12 HD.  I could see doing one of two things, either advancing both adult and matriarch from Large to Huge or keeping the adult Large and starting the matriarch Huge.  Opinions?


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## talinthalas (May 13, 2008)

Wow I leave work for the night and miss out.  I like the idea of fast healing 3 on the Adult and maybe 5 on the Matriarch.  The DR10 and CR 6 also sound correct.  I like the idea of the Matriarch being huge.


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## demiurge1138 (May 13, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Well, the original text did have fast healing 1 for all three types, but I see the need to bump it.  Also agreed on DR 10 and CR 6.
> 
> For advancement, the matriarch is going to come in at 12 HD.  I could see doing one of two things, either advancing both adult and matriarch from Large to Huge or keeping the adult Large and starting the matriarch Huge.  Opinions?



Damn, forgot about the matriarchs. I think we should keep the adults Large and make the matriarchs Huge.


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## freyar (May 13, 2008)

How about Advancement: 10-11 HD (Large) or by character class for the adult, start the matriarch at Huge with 12 HD and add Advancement 13-18 HD (Huge) or by character class?


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## talinthalas (May 13, 2008)

That sounds good. The Matriarch also should have Baleful Polymorph at will and Polymorph any Object 3x/day.  Would we stay with DR 10/Cold Iron or go to DR15/Cold Iron?


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## demiurge1138 (May 13, 2008)

I say stick to DR 10 for the matriarch.

Polymorph any object is a tricky SLA to balance. Perhaps we should limit it to "objects only", like the leprechaun.


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## freyar (May 14, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I say stick to DR 10 for the matriarch.
> 
> Polymorph any object is a tricky SLA to balance. Perhaps we should limit it to "objects only", like the leprechaun.



 Given that the matriarch already has baleful polymorph at will, that might be fair.  Anyone else have an opinion?


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## Shade (May 14, 2008)

Updated.

An adult silat stands 12 to 15 feet tall and weighs x pounds. 

Caster level 9 for SLAs?

Did we decide on ability scores for the matriarch?


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## demiurge1138 (May 14, 2008)

Caster level 9 sounds good. 

So, if we advance an adult silat to Huge, we get
Str 27, Dex 8, Con 21, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 19.

Those physical scores look right to me, but I could see increasing all of the mental ones by another +2 to +4. Thoughts?


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## Shade (May 14, 2008)

Yeah, I agree with the increased ability scores.  I think the larger than usual Int range for the Adult/Matriarch entry was designed to account for that.


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## freyar (May 14, 2008)

500 lb?  CL 9 works for me.

We don't have ability scores yet.  The original text didn't do much for matriarchs over adults, but we're having them advance to Huge size, so maybe we should have the corresponding physical stat increase.  Also, we took the lowish side of Int for the adult (14), so maybe we should bump Int to 16 and give a corresponding bump to Wis & Cha.  So, how about Str 27, Dex 8, Con 21, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 23?  I increased Cha a little more for the boost to the baleful polymorph DC.  I could see dropping Cha to 21 and also not raising Str quite as much if you want.


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## Shade (May 14, 2008)

Added.

If my math is correct, it gets 24 additional skill ranks.

Since it's Huge, should we allow it to assume the form of Huge creatures with its Change shape ability?

Stick with caster level equal to HD?


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## talinthalas (May 14, 2008)

I would say allow the the Huge Change Shape.  Caster level stays equal to HD.  The easiest would be to increase each skill by 3 and add the new modifiers.


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## freyar (May 14, 2008)

I agree with all that you've said.  Did we want to restrict polymorph any object as demiurge mentioned?


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## talinthalas (May 14, 2008)

I would think so that seems like a good way to handle polymorph any object in this case.


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## demiurge1138 (May 15, 2008)

Agreed to ability scores, including high Cha, as well as skills and CL.


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## freyar (May 15, 2008)

Ok, so then let's add (objects only) to polymorph any object if Shade agrees.  Then I think that the matriarch only needs one more feat.  Could go with Deceitful, but again that's probably suboptimal.  Combat Casting, Power Attack, or Weapon Focus (bite)?


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## demiurge1138 (May 15, 2008)

Oh! We should give the matriarch ranks in Concentration, as opposed to just increasing all skills by 3. Maybe slide 1 point out of all her previous class skills into Concentration?

As for feat, Power Attack seems reasonable, as does Skill Focus (Concentration).


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## freyar (May 15, 2008)

That would definitely be a smart thing to do.  I'm inclined to go with SF (Concentration) or else Combat Casting for the last feat.  Either would boost concentration pretty well.


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## talinthalas (May 15, 2008)

Why are we increasing the Matriarchs Concentration Skill?  I am sure there is a really good reason, but it is too early for me to figure it out.


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## freyar (May 15, 2008)

talinthalas said:
			
		

> Why are we increasing the Matriarchs Concentration Skill?  I am sure there is a really good reason, but it is too early for me to figure it out.



 If it's injured (or fighting defensively, etc) while trying to use a spell-like ability, it needs to make a Concentration check or lose its use of that SLA.  We might want to add Concentration to the adult as well, while we're at it.

Edit: In fact, let's change Knowledge (any two) to Knowledge (any one), Concentration in the adult and then just bump all ranks by 3 for the matriarch.


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## talinthalas (May 15, 2008)

Oh ok then yea we should add ranks of Concentration.


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

Updated the skills.

For the feat, Combat Casting, Power Attack or Skill Focus (Concentration)?


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

I think this one is enough of a melee threat that Power Attack makes sense.  My second choice is Combat Casting 'cause she's big enough to grapple a lot.


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I agree with all that you've said.  Did we want to restrict polymorph any object as demiurge mentioned?




I forgot to respond to this earlier, but yes, I agree.

Updated.

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: x HD (Huge) or by character class

A silat matriarch stands x to x feet tall and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

CR: 9 or 10?
Let's do 13-18HD (Huge) for advancement (or by class).
Uhh, 17-20 ft and 800 lb?


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## demiurge1138 (May 17, 2008)

I say CR 9. It's a tough CR 9, probably on par with a vrock.


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## talinthalas (May 19, 2008)

Everything sounds good to me.  I like Power Attack as well.  Is there anything else that this one needs?


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## Shade (May 19, 2008)

Updated.

I think we're finished.


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## talinthalas (May 19, 2008)

Awesome what's next?


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## Shade (May 19, 2008)

*Giant, Island * 
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Islands
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-9)
TREASURE: E
ALIGNMENT:Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 13+ 1-4 hit points
THAC0: 7
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d10 +10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Hurls rocks for 2-20 (2d10)
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 10%
SIZE: H (18 ft. tall)
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE: 7,000; 975 (juveniles)

Island giants are a twisted, horrid variety of their towering kind, as malicious and hateful as they are ugly. Their appearance varies, though all are vaguely humanoid. Many have one or more horns on their foreheads, as well as cyclopean (one-eyed) features. Some have the hindquarters of beasts, like satyrs. Others have reptilian tails or jutting, spiked spines. Giants of other races and enlightened humanoids universally despise the island giants, who return the compliment in spades.

Standing 18 feet tall and weighing some 8,000 pounds, island giants are imposing. They wear little more than a few rags, usually bits of sailcloth from the ships they have wrecked. Their skin spans the range of colors common among giants-from slate grays to sky blues to rich tans.

Island giants have no native language. They speak a form of Midani sprinkled with words borrowed from other giant tongues. This often makes their speech incomprehensible to others.

Combat: An adult male island giant has no particular powers, other than the ability (shared with other giant races) to throw small boulders. A healthy island male can heave a boulder up to 210 yards, inflicting 2 to 20 (2d10) points of damage. He can catch similar missiles (i.e., those inflicting up to 20 points of damage) 70 percent of the time. He often uses his rock-throwing skill to deter followers or sink ships. If a rock won't suffice as a weapon, an island giant usually will rely on his fists, pummeling opponents. Since island giants are not tool-makers by nature, fabricated weapons are rare.

These giants are smart enough to seek an advantage. When attacking a ship, most attempt an ambush. A ship usually contains more than a single meal, so an island giant will attempt to trap or imprison its victims, creating a larder for convenient snacking.

An adult female island giant can throw boulders and fight just as well as a male-provided she is in giant form. Females have the ability to shapechange at will, assuming the form of a human or humanoid. Most prefer the shape of a comely giant or a beautiful human woman of normal sire. The female typically uses this talent to lead wanderers to their doom, as well as to attract a mate.

Young island giants have only half the Hit Dice of their elders. They can breathe underwater. This ability helps them flee danger, including the wrath of larger island giants, and it is lost when the young reach adulthood.

Habitat/Society: Island giants tend to be solitary. As a rule, they hate everyone else. Smaller creatures are nothing more than meat, entertainment in cruel jests, or both. The intelligence of males is just enough to foster imaginative brutalities, while that of females is just enough to continue the race through deception.

Island giants are one of nature's curiosities. Males are completely infertile. Females, on the other hand, are quite fecund. They can reproduce by coupling with any other giant or humanoid race. True giants are preferred, but an island female may successfully mate with humans, elves, dwarves, and even genies. An island female's true visage is horrid to behold, so she uses her shapechange abilities to lure beaus, admiring handsome, beefy stock. Such a union is hazardous to the male, because the female will seek to kill and eat him immediately afterward.

From the start, an island giant's life is violent and bleak. Each year, females may give birth to a brood of 3 to 12 (ld10 + 2) small humanoid figures, who struggle to the ocean as soon as possible. Those who linger too long ashore may be eaten by an island giant or scavengers. Some speculate that a mother herself will devour dawdling young to eliminate weaklings. The young can breathe in and out of the water, and they typically dwell beneath the ocean waves until they are mature enough to walk back on shore and assume adult lives. It is estimated that only 1 in 50 offspring survive.

Upon returning to land, adult males seek a remote location to establish a domain. Adult females set out to deceive potential mates, beginning anew the struggle to reproduce.

Ecology: Island giants are omnivores. They eat just about anything, including seaweed and the carcasses of beached whales. They prefer fresh meat, however, so a passing ship is a welcome feast. If island giants are consistently well fed, they can live up to a millennium, but such individuals are rare.

Originally appeared in Land of Fate (1992).


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## Shade (May 19, 2008)

Let's figure out ability scores.

If we take the damage literally (+10), they'd have Str 30-31.

However, they're the same size as cloud giants, which have the following physical stats:

Str 35, Dex 13, Con 23

Int is Average (8-9)

That places them between hill giants and fire/frost giants.  That could put the other mental ability scores in this range:  Wis 10-14, Cha 7-11.


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## demiurge1138 (May 19, 2008)

I like the cloud giant physical abilities, and think we should go Wis 10, Cha 14. Maybe even Wis 8. They're not bright, but scary.


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## freyar (May 20, 2008)

I'll agree with those stats.  

Do we want to do 3 varieties (young, male, female) to account for the different special abilities?  Wouldn't be much extra work.


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## talinthalas (May 20, 2008)

I think that those stats sound right and that we should go with 3 varieties.


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## Shade (May 21, 2008)

Let's start with the male.

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (May 22, 2008)

Filling in some of the easy stuff:
swim 30 ft.
Environment: Warm Islands (Warm Land)
Organization: Solitary
domains: Chaos, Strength, and Water?


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## Shade (May 22, 2008)

Updated.

+x natural armor

Skills: 15

Feats: 5

An island giant's bag usually contains 1d4+1 throwing rocks, and x.

Rock Throwing (Ex): The range increment is x feet for an island giant’s thrown rocks.


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## demiurge1138 (May 22, 2008)

Both of the huge giants in the Monster Manual get +12 natural armor. We might want to boost that a bit, seeing as they'll be naked--or we might not, seeing as they're a lower CR. 

Cloud giants have a 140ft range increment with their rocks, which strikes me as fair.

Island giants don't strike me as being too bright; their giant's bags are probably filled with little more than food or perhaps crude religious fetishes.


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

Let's stick with +12 natural armor.  Agreed with the rest.

For skills, I'd go Listen, Spot, Survival (all at 5) or maybe trade one of those for Intimidate.

Feats: Power Attack, Improved Overrun, Improved Bull Rush, Cleave, Great Cleave?  Maybe something to enhance the rock throwing instead?


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

Agreed with all that, but how about swapping Survival for Hide, since they like to ambush ships?

CR 8?  They're about on par with a stone giant, and definitely better than a hill giant at CR 7.


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

Hide sounds good to me.  So 5 each of Hide, Listen, Spot?  CR 8 is ok, too.


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

Updated.

Are we ready to move on to the female?


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

I'd think so.  The only thing we need to do, unless we want some cosmetic changes, is add this:


> Females have the ability to shapechange at will, assuming the form of a human or humanoid. Most prefer the shape of a comely giant or a beautiful human woman of normal sire. The female typically uses this talent to lead wanderers to their doom, as well as to attract a mate.



The usual question: alternate form or change shape?  Not much difference here due to lack of special abilities, but I think I'd go with change shape limited to humanoids and giants.


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

Like so?

Change Shape (Su): A female island giant can assume the shape of any giant or humanoid of Small to Huge size. An island giant can remain in its humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but an island giant reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability reveals its natural form.

Skills: *When using its change shape ability, a female island giant gets a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks.


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## talinthalas (May 23, 2008)

Yep that is exactly what I was going to say we should do (ok yours is actually much better phrased then mine was).  Everythin else just stays the same right?  Couldn't we write it up like the drow then where the male and female are together but seperate?


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

Updated.

I just added females as a sidebar on the main entry.  Does that work?


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

Looks good to me.  I think juveniles need a separate stat block, though, either at the bottom of this entry or as a separate entry, your call.


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

Agreed.  Since they are a different size and Hit Dice, I think they warrant a completely separate entry.


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## demiurge1138 (May 24, 2008)

Agreed to females as a sidebar, separate juveniles.


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## freyar (May 24, 2008)

Half the HD: 6?  By "small humanoid creatures," do you think they mean Small or Medium?  I think I'm inclined toward Medium.  Want to give them Water Breathing or make them aquatic and amphibious?  They certainly should have a swim speed.


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## Shade (May 27, 2008)

Yeah, I think Medium, 6 HD, aquatic/amphibious.

Downsizing the island giant to Medium yields...

Str 19, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 14
+7 natural armor
slam 1d3

They should probably lose rock throwing/catching, right?


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## freyar (May 27, 2008)

Direct downsizing probably makes the most sense for this.  Definitely drop the rock stuff.  

Keep the same skills but decrease ranks?  For feats, keep Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave?

CR: 3 or 4?


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## Shade (May 27, 2008)

Added as another sidebar on the adult entry.

Look OK?  Anything else?


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## demiurge1138 (May 27, 2008)

Looks good to me.


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## GrayLinnorm (May 28, 2008)

If we're done, can the next creature please be an Oriental Adventures creature?


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## Shade (May 28, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> If we're done, can the next creature please be an Oriental Adventures creature?




Sure thing.


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## Shade (May 28, 2008)

*Bauh-Yin*
Lesser Spirit
Frequency: Very Rare
No. Appearing: 1-6
Armor Class: 6
Move: 12"
Hit Dice: 5
% in Lair: Nil
Treasure Type: Nil
No. of Attacks: 2
Damage/Attack: 1-6 or by weapon type
Special Attacks: see below
Special Defenses: see below
Magic Resistance: Standard
Intelligence: Average
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Size: M
Psionic Ability: None

The bauh-yin are the minions of the Black Leopard, who in life were the most devoted followers of the Black Leopard Cult (or, in more recent years, the Black Leopard Society in T'u Lung). Now they appear on the bidding of the Black Leopard, who uses them as his eyes and ears in the Realms.

Bauh-yin appear as great cat-headed men, often appearing as lions or wildcats, but most often (for those in service of Black Leopard) as leopards. Their appearance is often regarded as a good omen among the poor people of T'u Lung and as an ill omen for those in rank, power, and position.  Many peasant riots have been presaged by the sudden appearance of bauh-yin.  

The bauh-yin are mute but are intelligent and can communicate despite this handicap. They have the abilities to gate in 1 to 4 more bauh-yin, can teleport without error, may become invisible, cause fear (but only in those of lawful alignments), and shape change into any other form of cat.  They are immune to cold, fire, and electricity, but hate water. A bauh-yin will not cross water if it can avoid it, and further, will be driven off by cloudburst and other rainmaking spells.

The bauh-yin are normally only found in the drainage area of the Fenghsintzu river, where the Black Leopard Cult flourished thousands of years ago.

Originally appeared in OA5 - Mad Monkey vs. the Dragon Claw (1988).


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## freyar (May 28, 2008)

Outsider, I guess. Spirit subtype?


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## demiurge1138 (May 28, 2008)

Sounds right to me. 

I like these guys. The embodiment of public revolt. Don't get why they're cat-headed, but...

Maybe they hate rakshasas?

They don't have much offensive capability. Perhaps they should get some sort of incite riot ability (like confusion, only the confused never attack each other) or suggestions (to suggest that people revolt against their nobility). Maybe some more offensive SLAs like shatter and chaos hammer.

Aversion to water as per a yuan-ti's aversion power, only as a weakness of the monster and not a power? D20 Modern also has monstrous weaknesses that might model that well.


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## freyar (May 28, 2008)

We did something like an incite riot ability for one of the ghazneths a little while back.   We could mine that for ideas.  Also, since they only have 5HD, I wouldn't want to add too much in the way of SLAs, but I could see sneak attack or something to go along with the cattiness.


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## Shade (May 28, 2008)

It looks like a good start.

I believe the cat heads come from the Black Leopard which they serve.

I like the idea of reverse-engineering the aversion power into a weakness.

Here are the rakshasa ability scores we can use as a basis:
Str 12, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 17

These guys are only average Int (8-10).


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## freyar (May 30, 2008)

These are lower HD and almost certainly lower CR (btw, are rakshasa considered to be over-CRed?), so maybe drop Con, Wis, and Cha a little?  How about Str 12, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 15?


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## talinthalas (Jun 3, 2008)

Sorry I haven't responded in a bit as I have been laid up with pneumonia.  I think those stats are appropriate, Freyar.  I like the incite riot ability as well.  Sneak attack would be a very nice touch for these guys I think.


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## Shade (Jun 3, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I guessed that their natural weapons are claws.  Do slams seem more appropriate?

When ENWorld stops moving at the speed of snail, I'll try to locate the ghazneth's incite riot ability.


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## freyar (Jun 4, 2008)

I'd go with claws.  

Here's what we did for incite riot on the ghazneth:


> Incite Riot (Su): Merendil may expend one stored magic level to cause all creatures within 99 feet to begin rioting and looting the nearest community. This is a mind-affecting compulsion effect that lasts for 24 hours or until the mob can be calmed by some means. Each creature may make a DC 22 Will save to resist the compulsion. The save DC is Charisma-based.



Probably need to revise that for flavor and/or effect.  I'm not quite sure if these things cause looting or some other kind of insurgency.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 4, 2008)

Claws sound good. 

Perhaps we should look to the PHB 2 spell for inciting a riot; it's rather more specific (attack nearest creature), although we may wish to change the target (attack your hierarchical superior).


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2008)

Ooh...nice catch!  I had completely forgotten that spell.

Here's the relevant bits:

Enchantment [Mind-Affecting]
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature/level, no two of which are more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 1 round
Saving Throw: Will negates

Each creature that fails its saving throw attacks the nearest creature on its next turn, whether friend or foe. An affected creature attacks with whatever weapon is in hand, or with natural weapons. An unarmed creature attacks with an unarmed strike. An affected creature not already adjacent to another creature will move or (if possible) charge the nearest creature; if the nearest creature is not within range of a charge, the subject moves toward the nearest creature along the most efficient route.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 5, 2008)

I think we should keep the one creature/level mechanic--a few commoners suddenly rising in violence is likely to inspire others to do the same without magic. Do we want to keep it "nearest creature"?


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2008)

Agreed, and probably yes.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2008)

How does this look?

Incite Riot (Su):  Once per day, a bauh-yin can incite up to one creature per Hit Die to riot.  Affected creatures must be within X feet of the bauh-yin, and must succeed on DC X Will saves.  A creature that fails its save attacks the nearest creature on its next turn, whether friend or foe. An affected creature attacks with whatever weapon is in hand, or with natural weapons. An unarmed creature attacks with an unarmed strike. An affected creature not already adjacent to another creature will move or (if possible) charge the nearest creature; if the nearest creature is not within range of a charge, the subject moves toward the nearest creature along the most efficient route.  This is a mind-affecting, enchantment effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## talinthalas (Jun 10, 2008)

Looks good. I would say distance of 5 feet per HD and Will save DC of 16


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## Shade (Jun 12, 2008)

How about 25 ft. + 5 ft./Hit Die (similar to the spell)?  That would allow the base bauh-yin a range of 50 feet.

Alternate form or change shape for the cat forms?



> They are immune to cold, fire, and electricity, but hate water. A bauh-yin will not cross water if it can avoid it, and further, will be driven off by cloudburst and other rainmaking spells.






			
				demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Aversion to water as per a yuan-ti's aversion power, only as a weakness of the monster and not a power? D20 Modern also has monstrous weaknesses that might model that well.




How's this?

Aversion to Water (Ex): Bauh-yin hate water, and will never willingly cross water if it can be avoided. A bauh-yin exposed to an effect that puts it in contact with water (such as a rainstorm created by a control weather spell) must succeed on a DC x Will save or it must stay at least 20 feet from the source of water; if already within 20 feet, it must immediatelly move away. A bauh-yin unable to move away, or one attacked by a water effect, is overcome with revulsion. This revulsion reduces the creature's Dexterity score by 4 points until the effect wears off or the subject is no longer within 20 feet of a source of water. This ability is otherwise similar to antipathy as the spell (caster level 16th).


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 13, 2008)

Change shape for cat form, the water aversion looks good, and I like making incite riot work at close range.


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## Shade (Jun 13, 2008)

Any Diminutive to Large feline for the change shape ability?

Suggested DC for the aversion?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 13, 2008)

Are there any diminutive felines?

Also, antipathy is an 8th level Sor/Wiz spell. So let's make the DC the baseline 8th level DC, like for a scroll. 10 +8 +4= DC 22.


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## Echohawk (Jun 13, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Are there any diminutive felines?



No. The only diminutive animals with 3.x stats are bats, birds, chipmunks, gerbils, snakes, squirrels and toads.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

Do you want me to change it to Tiny, or leave Diminutive to allow for kittens.  

Updated.

Skills: 56

Feats: 2



> The bauh-yin are mute but are intelligent and can communicate despite this handicap.




Telepathy or some sort of sign language?


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2008)

Probably Tiny is ok. 

Skills: 8 ranks each of Bluff, Climb, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (local or history?), ???

Gotta run, will add more later...


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 16, 2008)

I say telepathy. 

For skills: Bluff, Climb, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (local and history), Tumble.

Feat possibilities: Ability Focus (incite riot), Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative, Dodge, Mobility.

Do we want to change cause fear to scare?


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

I agree with those skill choices and with scare instead of cause fear.  3/day for scare?

I think I'm leaning toward Ability Focus (incite riot) and Improved Initiative (to benefit sneak attack) for the feats.  Anyone feel strongly about the others?

Do we want to borrow any catlike racial skills?

Cats have a +4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Move Silently checks and a +8 racial bonus on Jump checks. Cats have a +8 racial bonus on Balance checks. They use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Climb and Jump checks. *In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus rises to +8.

Leopards have a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Jump checks and a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. 

Skills: Tigers have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks. *In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +8.


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2008)

Those feats sound good.  I'd go with +4 racial bonuses on Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, and Move Silently without special conditions like heavy undergrowth.  Since they would get so many, I'd just stick to +4.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

Updated.

Suggested weapon for attack lines?  Most of the asian weapons aren't really superior to their claws, and would require an Exotic feat.

Organization: Solitary or x (2-6)

Challenge Rating: 3?  They seem about on par with a rutterkin, but not as good as a hound archon.

Advancement: 6-15 HD (Medium) or by character class?

Level Adjustment: +5?  (Unbalanced ability scores, multiple immunities, multiple skill bonuses, at will SLA)

A bauh-yin is x feet tall and weighs x pounds. (Or borrow this:  "A rakshasa is about the same height and weight as a human.")

Summon Bauh-yin (Sp): Once per day a bauh-yin can attempt to summon 1d4 bauh-yin with a x% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a xth-level spell.   (100% success, 4th level?)


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2008)

I say borrow height and weight of people, although I suspect light and skinny people. Let's give their summoning a 40% chance, 2nd level.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

That's all reasonable.  

Organization: Leopards are usually solitary, so that's not much help.  Maybe "pride" for the group.  Ahh, actually I found a site that claims a group of leopards is a "leap" if we want to go with that.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2008)

Leap. Or insurrection.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

I like leap, but in this case, I think insurrection is more appropriate.

Are you sure on 2nd for the equivalent spell level for summon?  They are at least as good as a dretch, and it takes a summon monster IV to get multiple dretches.

Any suggestions for the weapon?   Maybe a scimitar for the greater threat range?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2008)

The summoning was a bit of a stab in the dark. According to my research, a babau is CR 6, can summon 1 babau at a 40% chance as a 3rd level spell. Ours is CR 4, right? So reducing the level by one for a 2 CR deficit seems fair to me.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

I'm all for insurrection.  For the summoning, let's go with 4th level; the babau summoning only gets one babau.

Scimitar sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> The summoning was a bit of a stab in the dark. According to my research, a babau is CR 6, can summon 1 babau at a 40% chance as a 3rd level spell. Ours is CR 4, right? So reducing the level by one for a 2 CR deficit seems fair to me.




Very odd, since a babau is normally summon monster VI.

I'll meet you halfway at 3rd.  

Speaking of summoning, do we want to provide a suggested summon monster level for sorcerers and wizards to summon bauh-yin?  Or do you think they are too specific for general summons?


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

They might be too specific (or too controlled by the Black Leopard), but they'd fit somewhere between Summon Monster IV and V.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 18, 2008)

Yeah, the summon tanar'ri and summon baatezu really don't play by the same rules as the Summon Monster I-IX.


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## Shade (Jun 18, 2008)

Indeed.

Updated.  Another one done?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 18, 2008)

Looks like it to me.


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## Shade (Jun 18, 2008)

We might as well finish off OA5...

*Yau-Mor*
Lesser Spirit
Frequency: Very Rare
No. Appearing: 1-2
Armor Class: 4
Move: 6"/24"
Hit Dice: 7+2
% in Lair: Nil
Treasure Type: Nil
No. of Attacks: 2 
Damage/Attack: 1-8
Special Attacks: Breathe Fire
Special Defenses: see below
Magic Resistance: Standard
Intelligence: Low
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Size: L
Psionic Ability: None

The Yau-mor is a large (12 feet tall) creature with the head of a dragon, the torso and arms of a man, and the lower limbs of a dragon.  Its skin has a greenish shade, and may have as few as one and as many as four eyes.

The yau-mor is a servant of those evil members of the Celestial Bureaucracy. It enjoys destruction and wreaking havoc, so much so that they often forget their original intentions, getting caught up in the combat of the moment.

In particular, yau-mor hate spellcasters, and will always seek to attack them when possible. They are not too swift on the uptake, however, and will not attack mages and priests until those individuals do something to call attention to themselves. After one has selected a spellcaster as a target, it will not attack others until the original target is dead.

The yau-mor can spit a gout of flame 30 feet long, inflicting 3-18 points of damage and causing combustible materials to ignite. It can do this every third round if it needs to.  This is, however, painful for the yau-mor, so most avoid using this weapon unless they are hard pressed.

Yau-mor can usually be found in the Eastern Realms performing some odious mission or another, generally of the type too tiresome or too dangerous to be trusted to a more competent individual. The yau-mor follow orders well, but are easily distracted and tricked.

Originally appeared in OA5 - Mad Monkey vs. the Dragon Claw (1988).


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## Big Mac (Jun 18, 2008)

*You can download this if it helps*

WotC have put OA5 - Mad Monkey vs the Dragon Claws on their previous edition downloads page.

You can download the entire module if it helps work out what these beasties do.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

Ok, Large Outsider (evil, spirit?).  Breath weapon: 30ft line of fire, 3d6 damage, every 3 rounds?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 20, 2008)

Perhaps we should give them more specifically mage-killing abilities, like:

Disrupting Attack (Su): A yau-mor's slam attacks (since it gets two attacks but has the body of a man, I assume they're slams) set up painful, distracting vibrations for 1d4 rounds. Any spellcaster hit by a yau-mor's slam attack must succeed a DC X Concentration check any time he casts a spell during this period. The save DC is Strength based.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

Sure, sounds neat.

Abilities?  I'd think highish Str, avg Dex, good Con, low Int, avg Wis, slightly low Cha.  So maybe Str 19, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 5, Wis 11, Cha 8?


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## Shade (Jun 20, 2008)

All good so far.  Let's get ability scores hammered down so we can Homebrew it.

We know Int is Low (5-7), and this "The yau-mor follow orders well, but are easily distracted and tricked" seems to imply low Wis as well.

Other similar-HD outsiders:

Babau (M): Str 21, Dex 12, Con 20, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 16
Canoloth (M): Str 19, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 5, Wis 17, Cha 12
Gulthir (L): Str 19, Dex 14, Con 19, Int 8, Wis 15, Cha 18
Kyton (M): Str 15, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 12
Barbazue (M): Str 15, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 10
Hellcat (L): Str 23, Dex 21, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Blue Slaad (L): Str 23, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 6, Wis 6, Cha 10

Maybe Str 23, Dex 15, Con 21, Int 6, Wis 6, Cha 10?


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

Interesting: Large outsiders are mostly stronger than Large dragons (which is where I got that stat).  Sure, those scores are fine with me.


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## Shade (Jun 20, 2008)

Oops!  I think I started my post then got distracted for awhile, missing your post on ability scores.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

I'm a bit lower on physical stats than you, so we can just go with your stats.  I'm also fine with low Wis, avg Cha.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 21, 2008)

I vote to use Shade's stats.


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## Big Mac (Jun 23, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Perhaps we should give them more specifically mage-killing abilities, like:
> 
> Disrupting Attack (Su): A yau-mor's slam attacks (since it gets two attacks but has the body of a man, I assume they're slams) set up painful, distracting vibrations for 1d4 rounds. Any spellcaster hit by a yau-mor's slam attack must succeed a DC X Concentration check any time he casts a spell during this period. The save DC is Strength based.




I really like this. It is fairly similar to Stunning Fist, but I like that.

You mention the two attacks, so did you intend for this ability to only kick in if both slam attacks hit? Or does the yau-mor get two chances to do Distrupting Attack per round? With two chances to do this per round and a duration of up to 4 rounds, it could probably keep up the vibrations forever.

So I wonder if the vibrations should have the same duration as Stunning Fist {i.e. "for 1 round (until just before the yau-mor's next action)"}.

I also wonder if the creature should take Stunning Fist as one of its feats. I think the two would go together really well.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

The image makes them look like they could be claws (although slam definitely would still work).

I find it odd that they have four arms, but only two attacks, and no special use for the other arms.  I'd recommend we increase the attacks to 4.


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## freyar (Jun 24, 2008)

Umm, let's go with 4 claws, I guess.


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2008)

Any other opinions?


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## Big Mac (Jun 28, 2008)

Shade said:


> Any other opinions?




I'd guess this was built off of the type of dragon that has six limbs instead of four limbs.

The picture shows the second arms having spikey elbows. Should they do anything (i.e. alternate attack method with less damage), or are they just there to look good?

The extra arms at the top don't look quite so strong as the other arms. Maybe they are for tweaking noses! 

But four claw attacks seems OK. Would you want to make the second pair of claw attacks do less damage? Or is that just over-complicating things?

How about the third eye? Should that provide a bonus to spot checks (and a penalty against gaze attacks)? What happens with other multiple eye creatures?


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## freyar (Jun 29, 2008)

Probably 4 equal claw attacks is sufficient. 

I could see a slight racial bonus to Spot and similar penalty on saves vs gazes, sure.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 29, 2008)

Agreed to four claws.


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2008)

Ok, 4 claws and demiurge's Disrupting Attack?



> The yau-mor can spit a gout of flame 30 feet long, inflicting 3-18 points of damage and causing combustible materials to ignite. It can do this every third round if it needs to. This is, however, painful for the yau-mor, so most avoid using this weapon unless they are hard pressed.




Breath Weapon: 30 ft line of fire, 3d6 damage, every 3 rounds, DC X (Constitution-based)?


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2008)

Updated.

I'm fine with the bonus on Spot checks due to the extra eye, as that is common to creatures with mulitple eyes, but not with the penalty on gaze attacks, as it is not common among multi-eyed creatures.

+4 bonus?


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2008)

Let's remember these have from 1-4 eyes.  So maybe +2 per extra eye and -2 for the 1-eyed variant?  Or is this getting too complicated?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 30, 2008)

I'd say too complicated. Let's give them a net +2 to Spot, regardless of how many eyes they have.

Do we want to keep the bit about how their breath weapons are painful? Seems sort of weird to me, especially since the breath weapon isn't that strong in the first place.


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2008)

Well, their CR certainly isn't going to be too high, so I think the breath weapon is reasonable.  But I do agree that we can ditch the painful bit.  There's probably no need for that.


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2008)

> The yau-mor can spit a gout of flame 30 feet long, inflicting 3-18 points of damage and causing combustible materials to ignite.




I'm drawing a blank at the moment and don't have time to look it up...do breath weapons that deal fire damage generally cause combustible materials to ignite, or do we need to explicitly state that?  I'm thinking it's the latter.


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2008)

Yeah, I think we need to state that.  Should we say victims that fair their Ref save catch fire?


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2008)

We can borrow text from this:

Burn (Ex): A fire elemental’s slam attack deals bludgeoning damage plus fire damage from the elemental’s flaming body. Those hit by a fire elemental‘s slam attack also must succeed on a Reflex save or catch on fire. The flame burns for 1d4 rounds. The save DC varies with the elemental’s size (see the table below). A burning creature can take a move action to put out the flame. The save DC is Constitution- based.


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## Big Mac (Jul 1, 2008)

Shade said:


> We can borrow text from this:
> 
> Burn (Ex): A fire elemental’s slam attack deals bludgeoning damage plus fire damage from the elemental’s flaming body. Those hit by a fire elemental‘s slam attack also must succeed on a Reflex save or catch on fire. The flame burns for 1d4 rounds. The save DC varies with the elemental’s size (see the table below). A burning creature can take a move action to put out the flame. The save DC is Constitution- based.




Sounds logical. The first sentence would go. The "slam attack" would switch to "breath weapon". I'd guess that the DC would not vary, so that sentence could switch to a fixed one. The rest would seem to be fine.

Would you want to rename this to "Ignite (Ex)"?


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2008)

I'd rather just roll it into the breath weapon, like so...

Breath Weapon (Su): 30-foot line of fire, once every 3 rounds, damage 3d6 fire, Reflex DC 18 half. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Additionally,  a yau-mor's breath weapon ignites combustible materials in its area, and creatures who fail their Reflex saves catch on fire (see Catching on Fire in the DMG). The flame burns for 1d4 rounds. A burning creature can take a move action to put out the flame. 

Look OK?


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## freyar (Jul 2, 2008)

Looks about right to me!


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2008)

Updated.

Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 60 ft. (x)

Skills: 60
Knowledge (the planes), Listen, and Spot seem likely, but we need at least 3 more

Feats: 3

Advancement: 8-14 HD (Large); 15-21 HD (Huge)?

A yau-mor is 12 feet tall and weighs X pounds.

Yau-mor speak Abyssal, Celestial, Draconic, and Infernal?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 2, 2008)

I'm not seeing any wings, so I say Good maneuverability as an Su.

Feats: Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (claw)?

Languages sound right to me.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2008)

Sounds good.

CR 7?  They seem about on par with red slaadi.

For skills, how about Knowledge (the planes) 10, Intimidate 10, Listen 10, Search 10, Spellcraft 10, Spot 10?   Spellcraft is for identifying spellcasters, Search for likely missions.

A fire giant is also 12-foot-tall and weights 7,000 pounds.   These guys, while chunky, are probably not quite the same stature, although they have two additional arms.  So maybe 6,500 pounds?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 3, 2008)

Skills, weight and CR all sound pretty much right. Maybe a little lighter--6,000 pounds?


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

I'm with demiurge on this one.

These done?


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

It appears so.


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## Big Mac (Jul 5, 2008)

Shade said:


> It appears so.




Next customer please!


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2008)

*Sartani*

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Shallow ocean and tropical islands
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Diurnal
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-6)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENT: 15, Sw 12
HIT DICE: 8
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3d6/3d6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Crush
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immunities (see below)
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: H (14' - 20')
MORALE: Champion (15)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 2,000

Sartani are terrifying creatures, part giant and part enormous crab. Their legs and torsos are those of a muscular giant, but their heads and hands are those of an enormous crab, including eyestalks and mandibles. A partial carapace of shell extends down the chest, back, and shoulders, gradually blending with unprotected nesh. Thick, sodden strands of hair sprout from gaps and cracks in the shell, having all the appearance of wet seaweed. The creatures' bodies range from dull red to greasy blue in color, the shell normally mottled with a lighter shade. The sartani are nor known to wear clothes or fashion implements of any sort, probably because their pincerlike hands make delicate work impossible.

*Combat*: Sartani are ferocious fighters of single-minded purpose, once urged into battle. They fight without any subtlety, wading directly into the thickest part of any line and attacking the nearest enemy. Few take the time to assess the threat posed by their foe, hence sartani are easily lured into attacking the front rank of any group, while spellcasters and archers whittle them down.

The physical attacks of the sartani are fearsome, however. They never fight with weapons, instead delivering powerful blows and rending attacks with their clawed hands. These do 3-18 points of damage per blow. As one strikes, it attempts to snap its giant pincers around the unfortunate target. If the attack roll is a 19 or 20, the sartani has clasped the victim with its giant claw. Thereafter it maintains its grasp, automatically squeezing each round for 3d10 points of damage. The held victim cannot attack with weapons or spells, but he can attempt a bend bars/lift gates check to break the monsters hold, one attempt at the start of every round. Those not held can assist, provided someone keeps the sartani engaged in melee. Each person aiding can add half his hend bars/lilt gates percentage to the total roll.
The sartani have an overall armor class of 2; however, should only the shell covered parts of their body he exposed, they have an AC of -2. Because they possess both gills and lungs, sartani are equally at home in water or on land. They are immune to water-based attacks, and their hard shell affords some protection from flame-based attacks such that they gain a +2 on all saving throws vs. fire and suffer -1 point of damage per die (though never less less than one). However, being the creatures of warm tropical oceans, sartani are particularly vulnerable to cold. They save against cold-based attacks at -1 and suffer an additional point of damage per die. A cone of cold causes damage and slows the creature to half normal speed if the saving throw is failed. This frost rigidity lasts for 2d4 rounds or until the creature can completely immerse itself in the warm sea for one round.

*Habitat/Society*: The world is blessed in that the sartani are extremely rare, almost unique. So infrequently are they seen that there is no reliable record of their existent among the many scholarly bestiaries of the Zakharan sages, a group who has cataloged nearly every creature in existence. Several legends exist that describe creatures similar to the sartani. The best known of these describes the crab-headed giants as the children of a crab god, sent to prepare the land for the crab god's arrival. This tale predates the spread of the Law, and it is considered an example of heretical thought by the strictest of the Enlightened.

Other common explanations for such hybrids--experiments of mad wizards and crossbreeding--have heen discounted in this case. This is mostly because no one can imagine any purpose or rationale for creating such creatures.

It is assumed the sartani are intelligent, for they act with purpose. Above the waves their mandibles make a staccato clacking that is their language, It is assumed this same tapping of shells allows them to communicate underwater. (Among the tribesmen, drummers often try to imitate this clacking for dancers; this is known as "crab-style" drumming.)

Sartani are most frequently sighted (of their infrequent appearances) in the shallow waters of the Crowded Sea, particularly around the islands of al-Sartan. Such sightings lend support to the theory that the sartani are servants of the crab-headed god Kar'r'gra, who is worshipped on those isles. It may also be, however, that the sartani have always been there and the cult of Kar'r'gra grew aruund them.

Whatever their source, the sartani are most ofen sighted singly, walking on the hottom of, or sometimes swimming through, the ocean. When encountered in groups it is a fearsome time, for that signals a coming raid on some coastal village. Such attacks are extremely destructive, for the creatures fight until all resisters have been slain or fled. Only then do they feast on their kills before returning to the ocean. For those along the coasts of al-Sartan, it is a common practice to flee into the forest with the arrival of a sartani warhand, leaving goods and property behind.

Although they are known to wantonly destroy houses and property, the creatures do not collect treasure. Their raids ashore seem to only to be for food as they ignore all manner of valuables scattered across the ground. It is not believed they make lairs or undersea homes, but live as nomads beneath the waves. The crab-headed giants are considered boorish and coarse by other intelligent sea-dwellers, and they are only rarely invited to the courts of the marids or other sea lords. Inexplicable, the pahari and sartani get along quite well and maintain cordial (although not overly friendly) contact with each other.

*Ecology*: In the sea, the sartani play the role of great predators and scavengers. They are not picky about their food and will devour anything from sharks to beached whales. Unconfirmed reports describe them as attacking passing ships by cracking open the hull with their claws to extract the helpless seamen within.

Roughly once a year the sartani molts his head shell. These massive carapaces are highly prized by natives. The material is extremely strong yet easily worked. Most shells are transformed into shields, but a few suits of sartani shell armor (AC 3) have been sold to sailors. Other uses for the giant shells include granary roofs, mortar bowls for pundinig cassava, and even altars for the temples to Kar'r'gra.

Originally appeared in ALQ1 - Golden Voyages (1992).


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## GrayLinnorm (Jul 7, 2008)

I wonder if the "crab god" mentioned is actually Blibdoolpoolp, the goddess of the kuo-toa? There are certainly similarities.

P.S. Any luck updating the Creature Catalog yet?


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:


> I wonder if the "crab god" mentioned is actually Blibdoolpoolp, the goddess of the kuo-toa? There are certainly similarities.




Interesting...



GrayLinnorm said:


> P.S. Any luck updating the Creature Catalog yet?




Nope.  Michael's aware of the issue, but is still dealing with EN2 matters first.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2008)

Giant or Aberration?  I'm leaning toward giant.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 7, 2008)

They seem too weird to be giants to me. Monstrous humanoids or aberrations.


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## freyar (Jul 8, 2008)

I'm with demiurge.  They seem to fit the theme of a lot of monstrous humanoids.


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2008)

Ok, you've sold me on monstrous humanoid.  

Let's figure out ability scores.

Increasing a crucian to Huge yields:  Str 31, Dex 4, Con 25

A Huge monstrous crab has: Str 25, Dex 11, Con 14

Since they are as smart as a hill giant, we could borrow its mental ability scores:  Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7

So maybe Str 31, Dex 11, Con 25, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 8, 2008)

I like those stats. 

Let's see... they obviously have improved grab, constrict, fire resistance, cold vulnerability... anything else?


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



> The sartani have an overall armor class of 2; however, should only the shell covered parts of their body he exposed, they have an AC of -2.




Light fortification?



> Because they possess both gills and lungs, sartani are equally at home in water or on land.




Aquatic subtype and amphibious SQ?



> They are immune to water-based attacks, and their hard shell affords some protection from flame-based attacks such that they gain a +2 on all saving throws vs. fire and suffer -1 point of damage per die (though never less less than one). However, being the creatures of warm tropical oceans, sartani are particularly vulnerable to cold. They save against cold-based attacks at -1 and suffer an additional point of damage per die. A cone of cold causes damage and slows the creature to half normal speed if the saving throw is failed. This frost rigidity lasts for 2d4 rounds or until the creature can completely immerse itself in the warm sea for one round.




I agree with resistance to fire (10?) and vulnerability to cold.  Do we want to do anything with the immunity to water-based attacks and the frost rigidity?



> Unconfirmed reports describe them as attacking passing ships by cracking open the hull with their claws to extract the helpless seamen within.




Give them the constrict ship ability we gave the sea titan?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 8, 2008)

Constrict ship seems needless--they can just attack ships the old fashioned way. We might give them the ability to ignore some hardness, though... then give them Improved Sunder.

I like frost rigidity slowing them--we could use golem weaknesses as a model.

They're definately amphibious, and I like the idea of giving them light fortification.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2008)

Frost Rigidity (Ex):  A magical attack that deals cold damage slows a sartani (as the slow spell) for 2d4 rounds, with no saving throw.  The sartani can end the effect early if it can immerse itself in warm water.

Look OK?

Borrowing and modifying from the dacentrurus...

Fortification (Ex): The chitinous shell of a sartani protects many of its vital areas. Any critical hit or sneak attack made against a sartani has a 25% chance of failing, dealing only normal damage.

Should we just treat their claws as adamantine weapons for the purpose of bypassing hardness?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 9, 2008)

Adamantine would work, but seems a little much. I was thinking "ignores the first five points of hardness", so they could chew through wood, but since they're of reasonably high CR...


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2008)

Updated.

Special Attacks: Constrict 3d6+15?

Resistance to fire 20?

Skills: 11
Put it all in Spot?

Feats: 3
Awesome Blow, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder (B), Power Attack?

Alignment: Usually chaotic neutral?

Advancement: x

A sartani stands 14 to 20 feet tall and weighs x pounds.  (Frost giant is 2800 pounds at 15 feet and storm giant is 12000 pounds at 21 feet, so maybe 3000 to 12000 pounds to account for the added carapace weight?)


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 9, 2008)

Advancement by hit dice or class, I think. Let's go resist fire 20 to make up for the cold vulnerability. Feats and constrict sound about right.


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2008)

Updated.

Although we're nearly done, the low HD are bothering me.  Even the lowly hill giant has 12 HD.  I'm thinking we should boost them to 18 HD (1 above the cloud giant, the weakest of the Huge giants).  Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 10, 2008)

I dunno, I kind of like them with the low HD. Lets lower-level characters feel cool for taking down a big crab-man, and lets DMs throw hordes of them at his players.


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2008)

That's cool.

CR 8?


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2008)

I think CR 8.  The probably deal about the same damage as a frost giant at CR 9, but they don't have the hp.


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2008)

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2008)

Looks good!


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## Big Mac (Jul 21, 2008)

freyar said:


> Looks good!




Do you think the chitinous shell of the Sartani should count as treasure? You could probably get it off of a dead sartani and use it in exactly the same ways as the shells they shed every year.

Apart from that minor question, I think this beastie is done. Nice work.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2008)

Big Mac said:


> Do you think the chitinous shell of the Sartani should count as treasure? You could probably get it off of a dead sartani and use it in exactly the same ways as the shells they shed every year.
> 
> Apart from that minor question, I think this beastie is done. Nice work.




I don't see why not, but I'd prefer to just leave that up to individual DMs, since it wasn't called out in the original text.


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## talinthalas (Jul 23, 2008)

What's next?


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2008)

*Utoyasukata*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1d4
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 3"/18" (MC: B)
HIT DICE: 3
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poison
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Surprised only on a 1
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: S
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: III/105 + 3/hp

The utoyasukata is a brightly colored bird found in the coastal areas of temperate lands. Its flesh is greatly prized as a delicacy by nobles and wealthy merchants, who are willing to pay good sums for the bird. The bird is extremely difficult to catch as it is very wary and flees at the slightest sign of danger. Likewise its nest is virtually impossible to find. It is hidden so well that the utoyasukata cannot remember where it is and must call to its young to find the nest. Alas, this leads to its undoing, for hunters have learned to imitate these calls, luring utoyasukata within range of their nets and weapons.
Still, the hunting is dangerous since the blood of the bnird is a deadly poison. Anytime a successful hit is scored with a melee weapon, the wielder must make a successful saving throw versus poison (+2 on the die roll) or die. Once the bird is slain, care must still be taken in the handling of the carcass for the poison remains deadly for up to one hour after the creature's death. Placing the carcass in a bag is insufficient, as the poison rapidly soaks through several layers of cloth. Utoyasukata have even been known to prick themselves with their beak and shake a few drops loose in an attempt to defeat hunters.

Even eating the utoyasukata is dangerous, a situation that actually enhances its reputation as a delicacy.  Even eating the utoyasukata is dangerous, a situation that actually enhances its reputation as a delicacy. It can be properly prepared only by a skilled cook (who must check against his proficiency for success). If prepared unsuccessfully, or by an untrained person, all who eat it must make a saving throw versus poison. Those who make the saving throw have enjoyed a meal of great delicacy. Those who fail the saving throw suffer intense illness (or death if the saving throw result is a 1). The onset of the illness occurs 1d6 hours after eating and lasts for 1d8 hours. During this time the character is afflicted by severe stomach cramps and weakness, preventing him from doing all but the simplest actions.

Originally appeared in OA1 - Swords of the Daimyo (1986).


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## freyar (Jul 28, 2008)

Hmmm, I could see either animal or magical beast.  Thoughts?


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2008)

I'm thinking animal since real-world creatures can possess poison.


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2008)

Yeah, I was leaning that way myself but wanted to leave the door open.  Got any Small-sized non-predatory birds to use for stat comparison?


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## Shade (Jul 29, 2008)

Not non-predatory for the most part, but here are similarly-sized birds:

Albatross (S): Str 10, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6
Eagle (S): Str 10, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6
Ibis (T): Str 6, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 6
Small Raven (S): Str 5, Dex 13, Con 12, familiar mental scores
Vulture (S): Str 8, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 4


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2008)

Maybe something like Str 5, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 7?  I don't see these as being that strong, but they need a decent Con for the poison and sound like they have a decent Wis since they are very wary and have figured out how to use their poison when attacked.


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## Shade (Jul 29, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



> Surprised only on a 1




Racial bonus on Listen and Spot?

Modify this?

Venomous Blood (Ex): A blue dragonet’s blood is poisonous. A creature that makes a successful attack with a slashing or piercing weapon (including natural weapons) against a blue dragonet must succeed on a DC 15 Reflex save or be exposed to poison from the dragonet's splashing blood. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Blue Dragonet Blood: Contact, Fort Save DC 15, primary damage 1d4 Con, secondary damage 1d4 Con.


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2008)

I could go with the racial bonus to those.

I like the venemous blood almost exactly as written, and I think the Con damage is about right, too.  We might also put in a line that "A utoyasukata may injure itself as a standard action.  When it does so, all adjacent creatures must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or be exposed to poison from its blood."

Edit: maybe we should say it "injures itself, doing 1 hp damage,"


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2008)

Updated.

+4 racial bonus on Listen and Spot?

Skills: 6
Listen 3, Spot 3?

Feats: Weapon Finesse (B), 2 more  (Alertness, Improved Initiative?)

Challenge Rating: 2?

Advancement: 4-6 HD (Small)?

An utoyasukata is x feet long with a x-foot wingspan. A typical specimen weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2008)

Hey, Shade, catch my edit above.

Skills, Feats, CR, and advancement all good.  3 feet long, 8 feet wingspan, 10lb?


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2008)

Updated.



> Once the bird is slain, care must still be taken in the handling of the carcass for the poison remains deadly for up to one hour after the creature's death. Placing the carcass in a bag is insufficient, as the poison rapidly soaks through several layers of cloth.
> 
> Even eating the utoyasukata is dangerous, a situation that actually enhances its reputation as a delicacy.  Even eating the utoyasukata is dangerous, a situation that actually enhances its reputation as a delicacy. It can be properly prepared only by a skilled cook (who must check against his proficiency for success). If prepared unsuccessfully, or by an untrained person, all who eat it must make a saving throw versus poison. Those who make the saving throw have enjoyed a meal of great delicacy. Those who fail the saving throw suffer intense illness (or death if the saving throw result is a 1). The onset of the illness occurs 1d6 hours after eating and lasts for 1d8 hours. During this time the character is afflicted by severe stomach cramps and weakness, preventing him from doing all but the simplest actions.




How shall we handle this?   Maybe a DC X Profession (cook) check to safely prepare it?  Something like this?

Utoyasukata Flesh: Ingested, Fort Save DC 14, primary damage 1d4 Con, secondary damage nauseated for 1d8 hours.  A creature that succeeds on the save against the secondary damage is still sickened for 1d8 hours.

Should we add a note to the contact poison that it remains virulent up to an hour after the bird's death?


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2008)

Agreed to all the above.  Make the Profession (cooking) DC 15, I guess.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 31, 2008)

Let's make the cooking DC higher, I think. DC of the poison +5 or +10, say.


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## freyar (Jul 31, 2008)

I could go for +5.  Still do-able for someone who just killed one at level=CR, but pretty hard.


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## Shade (Jul 31, 2008)

Updated.

Does that work?


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## freyar (Jul 31, 2008)

Yeah, and I guess it's done.


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## Big Mac (Aug 3, 2008)

freyar said:


> Yeah, and I guess it's done.




I like it, but why is it less dangerous cooked? You have this for the cooked bird:

"_Utoyasukata Flesh:_ Ingested, Fort Save DC 14, primary damage 1d4 Con, secondary damage nauseated for 1d8 hours. A creature that succeeds on the save against the secondary damage is still sickened for 1d8 hours."

And this for the uncooked bird:

"_Utoyasukata Blood:_ Contact, Fort Save DC 14, primary damage 1d4 Con, secondary damage 1d4 Con."

Given that the original monster blurb killed people who ate the bird and rolled a one I think that maybe the food bit should say something more like:

"_Utoyasukata Flesh:_ Ingested, Fort Save DC 14, primary damage 1d4 Con, secondary damage 1d4 Con. A creature that succeeds on the save against the secondary damage is still sickened for 1d8 hours."

That gives you the same amount of Con damage as skin exposure and still adds the sickened on the top.

I'm sure that assasins will want to harvest this poison. Do you think the blurb needs a bit of text? I'd say the DC should be similar to cooking the bird.

How is this:

A DC 19 Craft (alchemy)? check is needed to safely extract the blood of an utoyasukata. If the check fails, anyone drawing the blood is exposed to the following poison:

_Utoyasukata Blood:_ Contact, Fort Save DC 14, primary damage 1d4 Con, secondary damage 1d4 Con.​
I'm not sure on the name of the skill needed to prepare poison. I can't find anything in the SRD.


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## freyar (Aug 4, 2008)

I don't know; it seems to me from the original text that the blood is supposed to be more poisonous than the flesh.  Regarding people who roll 1 on a save dying, I think that's an artifact of the old "critical failure" system, which probably isn't appropriate to 3.X.


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2008)

freyar said:


> I don't know; it seems to me from the original text that the blood is supposed to be more poisonous than the flesh.  Regarding people who roll 1 on a save dying, I think that's an artifact of the old "critical failure" system, which probably isn't appropriate to 3.X.




Yeah, that's the way I understood it.  Note also...



> Once the bird is slain, care must still be taken in the handling of the carcass for the poison remains deadly for up to one hour after the creature's death.




...so by the time of preparation, the poison has undoubtedly weakened.

That passage above also leads me to think we needn't worry about having stats for using harvested poison, as it would need to be used almost immediately.   That could probably be ad-libbed by a DM if such a situation arose (like some wacky assassin carrying a live utoyasukata just to have a ready source of venom).


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## freyar (Aug 4, 2008)

Would an assassin's poison use ability protect him from waving a bloody, flapping utoyasukata around and splashing himself?


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2008)

freyar said:


> Would an assassin's poison use ability protect him from waving a bloody, flapping utoyasukata around and splashing himself?




This takes me back to the sack of kobolds/supreme cleave discussions of old.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2008)

*Segarran, Lesser*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Cadres
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-20 (or more)
ARMOR CLASS: 1
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 5+5
THAC0: 16
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type +2 or 2d8 (bite)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Fight and save as 5th-level warriors
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 10%
SIZE: M (6' tall)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 1,400

*Segarran, Greater*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical/forests
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Very to genius (11-18)
TREASURE: A
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -2
MOVEMENT: 12 (as human), or 9, Sw 12 (Fl 18, D)
HIT DICE: 9+18
THAC0: As priest
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 (as human) or 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type +6 or 3d6 (bite)/2d10 (tail)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 20%
SIZE: M (6' tall) or H (30' long)
MORALE: Champion (16)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 8,000+1,000 per level above 12

Segarrans are special minions of Ragarra, an ancient, evil goddess of the jungle, typhoons, and revenge, once openly worshipped in the Ruined Kingdoms.

A lesser segarran has the head and tail of a crocodile but the stocky, heavily muscled hody of a human or humanoid. Lesser segarrans are usually created from devoted followers, but they also can he created from infant crocodiles using a spell granted only to Ragarra's priestesses. These lesser servants have average human intelligence and can communicate in Midani or any of the dead tongues of the Ruined Kingdoms.

Combat: Lesser segarrans fight using the tactics and weapons of 5th-level human warriors, though their supernatural strength lends them a +2 bonus on damage. If unarmed, they attack by biting for 2-16 (2d8) points of damage. All lesser segarrans have 10% magic resistance.

Habitat/Society: Once, when the powers of Ragarra were great, even her lesser servants could assume human form and walk the city streets unnoticed; now they are limited to their half-reptile form. They are found primarily in the Ruined Kingdoms and Zakhara's earten jungles, but they sometimes can he encountered mingling with human society at night, when they can hide their monstrosity through careful disguise. More oftenn they are used as defenders for Ragarra's few shrines or as protectors for her chosen few.

Ecology: All segarrans are voracious carnivores. Though they usually subsist on animal meat, they ritually devour their enemies' remains at the end of every battle. When slain, they return to their original (human or baby crocodile) form.

Greater Segarran

Only Ragarra's most favored high-level priestesses become greater segarrans as a result of powerful magic. Once transformed, they retain their original human form. Furthermore, they can also assume a towering reptilian shape at will, with the transformation taking but a single round. This reptilian form depends on the personality or whim of the priestess, but usually includes at least the head and tail of a giant crocodile, At 16th level, a greater segarran's reptile form can also include a pair of giant bat wings, permitting her to fly at a rate of 18.

Combat: While in human form, Ragarra's chosen fight using the tactics, magical items, and weapons of priests, though their supernatural strength lends them a +6 bonus on damage. They never wear armor, though they may use magical Items (such as a ring of protection) to enhance their Armor Class. All greater segarrans have 20% magic resistance.

Although they retain most of their priest spells from before the transformation, greater segarrans cannot memorize the highest level spells to which they are normally allowed (for instance, a 13th-level priestess, while a greater segarran, cannot memorize or cast her 6th-level spells).

In her reptilian form, a greater segarran can attack with her massive jaws (3d6 points of damage) and swipe up to 3 opponents standing beside or behind her with her powerful tail (2d10 points of damage). At 16th level, a segarran's bat wings can also be used for two wing buffets instead of flight, each inflicting 2d6 points of damage. All victims of a tail swipe or wing buffet must save vs. paralyzation or be stunned for 1-4 rounds.

Habitat/Society: In addition to the loss of her most powerful spell, a priestess of Ragarra must have a Wisdom of 17 and be at least 12th level to complete the exhausting ceremony that transforms her into a greater segarran.
In return for such power, the priestess must swear to undertake a difficult quest or perform a dangerous service for her goddess. Those few who disappoint Ragarra are punished with a painful demise and suffer an eternity of undeath. More details about the cult of Ragnarra can be found in Chapter Three of the Campaign Guide.

Ecology: Greater segarrans can easily infiltrate human society. The only clue to their monstrous nature is their craving for raw meat. They must eat the flesh of their fallen enemies as a tribute to Ragarra.

Originally appeared in Ruined Kingdoms (1994).


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2008)

Monstrous humanoid, I guess?  Also, I think at least the greater version, if not both, should be a template.


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## Shade (Aug 8, 2008)

I'm thinking monster for lesser, template for greater.

And monstrous humanoid seems appropriate.


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## freyar (Aug 9, 2008)

For abilities, looks like Str around 14-15 and Con maybe 12-13.  Int 10, probably average Dex and Cha, maybe Wis around 12 also?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 9, 2008)

For a 5 HD bruiser, Str 14 is kind of sad. I say Str 18, and higher Con besides.


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## freyar (Aug 9, 2008)

How about Str 18, Dex 11, Con 21, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 11?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 9, 2008)

These ability scores appeal to me.


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2008)

Let's give them something fun for a weapon, like a halberd or heavy pick, something unusual.

Since it doesn't seem like these will get many special abilities, should we add a swim speed?  They are part crocs, after all.


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2008)

Yes to swim speed.  Maybe hold breath as well?

I'm trying to find details on Ragarra (to determine if she has a favored weapon).   All I've found so far:

Ragarra: Goddess of the jungle and its violent denizens, passion, chaos and revenge


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 20, 2008)

Scimitars, perhaps? Sort of like machetes...


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2008)

Hold breath sounds good to me.

I don't know about scimitars.  These things are brutish, so I imagine some kind of big weapon, you know?  Not something dual-wielding drow rangers would use.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 20, 2008)

Falchions, then? Glaives, using their bites against adjacent opponents?


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2008)

Since I can't find any favored weapons for Ragarra, let's go with falchions or glaives.  I kinda like the suggestion of using glaives for reach and bites for adjacent.

Updated.


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2008)

I like that pretty well.  

Skill ranks: Listen 6, Spot 6, Swim 4?

Feats: Power Attack and Cleave?


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2008)

Updated.



> When slain, they return to their original (human or baby crocodile) form.




Should true seeing reveal the original form as well?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 20, 2008)

Sure! Is there some way to break the curse on them to restore them to their original form non-fatally?


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## freyar (Aug 21, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Sure! Is there some way to break the curse on them to restore them to their original form non-fatally?



That probably depends on how we want them to be created.  We know that greater segarrans are created by 12th or higher level clerics, so lesser segarrans might be created by 7th or higher level clerics.  In that case, maybe break enchantment with a CL check vs some reasonable DC could change a lesser segarran back.  What do you think?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 21, 2008)

That sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Aug 21, 2008)

Agreed.

Challenge Rating: 3?

Treasure: None?  (It was "nil" in 2e)

Advancement: By character class?

A lesser segarran stands 6 feet tall and weighs x pounds. 

Lesser segarrans speak x.


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## freyar (Aug 22, 2008)

Well, they're not quite as good as a 5th level NPC fighter, but could they be as high as CR 4?

I'd say speak Common (and Midani?).  200 lb.  Advancement and treasure are good.

Here's the SQ:

Magic Form (Ex): Lesser segarrans are magical creatures, created from humans or baby crocodiles by a ritual carried out by clerics of Ragarra of at least 7th level.  A true seeing spell reveals a lesser segarran's original form, and lesser segarrans return to their original form on death.  In addition, a break enchantment spell will return a lesser segarran to its original form if the caster succeeds on a DC X caster level check.

(I'd say maybe DC 21-2, which is the DC for a 4th level spell plus the segarran's SR.  But I'm not sure of the number; this should probably be pretty tough.)


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## Big Mac (Aug 24, 2008)

I'm late joining in with this one. I'm loving your work, but have a few questions and comments.

It is a shame that the two types of Segarran didn't have different names, as they are essentially different things. The Lesser version is more like the hybrid stage of a lycanthrope, but the greater version works like a lycanthrope that changes at will (but can't turn into the animal).

The bat wings are a bit bizzare on a reptile (considering that bats are mammals). I would have thought that dragon-like wings would have been better.

The greater version definately changes as it "levels up". I don't think you are going to be able to do it with one set of stats.



Shade said:


> *Segarran, Lesser*
> <snip>
> ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
> <snip>
> ...




...and...



Shade said:


> Lesser segarrans are usually created from devoted followers, but they also can he created from infant crocodiles using a spell granted only to Ragarra's priestesses. These lesser servants have average human intelligence and can communicate in Midani or any of the dead tongues of the Ruined Kingdoms.
> 
> Combat: Lesser segarrans fight using the tactics and weapons of 5th-level human warriors, though their supernatural strength lends them a +2 bonus on damage. If unarmed, they attack by biting for 2-16 (2d8) points of damage. All lesser segarrans have 10% magic resistance.




Hmm. There are *two* different ways to create these creatures, but both seem to work as a 5th level fighter. I suggest that we pair up one 5th level fighter (who worships Ragarra) with a baby crocodile to create two lesser segarrans.

Rather than have an advancement section for these beasties, maybe we could allow them to be created from 5th or higher level fighter.

Hmm. Sounds like I'm pushing this back towards a template. But maybe a Prestige Class (for any worshipers of Ragarra with a BAB of X) could do the job.

I wonder if the chaotic evil alignment is a requirement. With the 3rd edition rules clerics can be one step away from the alignment of their deity and worshipers can be further away than that. Maybe these guys are supposed to be Ragarra's version of paladins.



Shade said:


> *Segarran, Greater*
> <snip>
> ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
> <snip>
> ...




...and...



Shade said:


> Only Ragarra's most favored high-level priestesses become greater segarrans as a result of powerful magic. Once transformed, they retain their original human form. Furthermore, they can also assume a towering reptilian shape at will, with the transformation taking but a single round. This reptilian form depends on the personality or whim of the priestess, but usually includes at least the head and tail of a giant crocodile, At 16th level, a greater segarran's reptile form can also include a pair of giant bat wings, permitting her to fly at a rate of 18.
> 
> Combat: While in human form, Ragarra's chosen fight using the tactics, magical items, and weapons of priests, though their supernatural strength lends them a +6 bonus on damage. They never wear armor, though they may use magical Items (such as a ring of protection) to enhance their Armor Class.




Again we have willing people getting transformed. This time they are female clerics. I wonder if the warriors above are male or both male and female. Is there anything else that explains more about the culture?

As the abilities of the beastie improve as the cleric goes up in levels (wings at 16th level) I wonder if a Prestige Class might be a better way to handle this.

The 9 hit dice is a bit confusing. It would make mewonder if the Greater Segarran is created from a 9th level cleric, but lower down the text, we get told that they are created from 12th level clerics. So what happens to the other 3 hit dice? I thought the +18 was hit points Is the +18 actually another 18 hit dice? If it is 18 hit dice, then I'd say that the stats were for an 18th level cleric.



Shade said:


> Segarrans are special minions of Ragarra, an ancient, evil goddess of the jungle, typhoons, and revenge, once openly worshipped in the Ruined Kingdoms.




Do we need to do a 3rd edition conversion of Ragarra (as a religion - not an avatar)?

Unless someone can find something else about this religion in the Kara-Tur product line, I'd say we can already work out some stuff about her and could cobble together a conversion to get the priestesses to work.

Ragarra seems to only allow female clerics, but has male servants (the warriors) who also serve her. I'd say we should assume that all clerics of Ragarra should refrain from wearing armor (unless we make that a requirement of the greater segarran). The religion seems to have dropped down from a big religion to a smaller cult, so maybe she should now be a lesser deity or a demigod.

Seeing as both of these monsters are listed as chaotic evil, I'd suggest that Ragarra should be CE herself.

I think we should consider if clerics who are NE or CN should be able to transform into Segarran without changing alignment (unless, as I said before, we want to make these creatures Ragarra's answer to paladins).

Ragarra, herself, should be able to take on crocodile form and crocs should be part of her "Portfolio".



Shade said:


> Habitat/Society: Once, when the powers of Ragarra were great, even her lesser servants could assume human form and walk the city streets unnoticed; now they are limited to their half-reptile form.




I think this should somehow feature in the conversion. If the segarran can open some sort of doorway to Ragarra this ability should return. Alternatively we could offer it as an advancement option (especially if this monster got turned into a Prestige Class).



Shade said:


> They are found primarily in the Ruined Kingdoms and Zakhara's earten jungles, but they sometimes can he encountered mingling with human society at night, when they can hide their monstrosity through careful disguise. More oftenn they are used as defenders for Ragarra's few shrines or as protectors for her chosen few.




Perhaps the Organization section of the Greater Segarran should include an escort of Lesser Segarran.



Shade said:


> Ecology: All segarrans are voracious carnivores. Though they usually subsist on animal meat, they ritually devour their enemies' remains at the end of every battle. When slain, they return to their original (human or baby crocodile) form.




Looks like killing a segarran and using spells to bring them back from the dead would make them human. But as they go into this process willingly, I'm not sure they would want that to happen.

_...and if my evil plan to turn these into Prestige Classes is suceessful, it would be a one way process. Mwah! Mwah! Mwah!_ 



Shade said:


> Although they retain most of their priest spells from before the transformation, greater segarrans cannot memorize the highest level spells to which they are normally allowed (for instance, a 13th-level priestess, while a greater segarran, cannot memorize or cast her 6th-level spells).




This is looking more and more like it should be a PrC to me.

Standard spellcasting rules allow a cleric (or any other spellcaster) to cast lower level spells in spell slots, so I'd say that a 13th level cleric (who gets 7th level spells in 3rd edition) should be able to use the 7th level slots for 6th level spells.



Shade said:


> In her reptilian form, a greater segarran can attack with her massive jaws (3d6 points of damage) and swipe up to 3 opponents standing beside or behind her with her powerful tail (2d10 points of damage). At 16th level, a segarran's bat wings can also be used for two wing buffets instead of flight, each inflicting 2d6 points of damage. All victims of a tail swipe or wing buffet must save vs. paralyzation or be stunned for 1-4 rounds.




Would the tail affect flanking (i.e. can't be flanked)?

Should we swap the bat wings for dragon-like wings (to make them more reptillian)? If there is nothing in the blurb of Ruined Kingdoms that associates Ragarra with bats, I say we should make the swap.



Shade said:


> Habitat/Society: In addition to the loss of her most powerful spell, a priestess of Ragarra must have a Wisdom of 17 and be at least 12th level to complete the exhausting ceremony that transforms her into a greater segarran.




If that isn't PrC requirements, I don't know what is! 



Shade said:


> In return for such power, the priestess must swear to undertake a difficult quest or perform a dangerous service for her goddess. Those few who disappoint Ragarra are punished with a painful demise and suffer an eternity of undeath.




Should we explain this quest or ritual? It sounds similar to the Test of High Sorcery that wizards in Dragonlance take to qualify as a Wizard of High Sorcery. Although wizards are arcane spellcasters, The Wizards of High Sorcery are ruled by three gods of magic, so if we are going to explain the ritual maybe we could look at The Test for inspiration.

In DL wizards who fail the test just die. The painful demise that leads to an eternity of undeath sounds a lot harsher.

I'd say this spell/quest/ritual thing is necromantic in nature. How about having a cleric willingly accept some sort of curse that kills them unless the suceed in a quest?



Shade said:


> More details about the cult of Ragnarra can be found in Chapter Three of the Campaign Guide.




I think we might need some extracts from Chapter 3.



Shade said:


> Ecology: Greater segarrans can easily infiltrate human society. The only clue to their monstrous nature is their craving for raw meat. They must eat the flesh of their fallen enemies as a tribute to Ragarra.




This could be a bit problematic if a cleric kills several creatures at one time or if they kill creatures known to be poisonous. Maybe this could be cut down a bit. Maybe they could just eat humanoid creatures who are enemies. Maybe they could just eat the hearts. Maybe they could just eat worshipers of religions opposed to Ragarra.


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## Big Mac (Aug 24, 2008)

freyar said:


> Monstrous humanoid, I guess?  Also, I think at least the greater version, if not both, should be a template.




...and...



Shade said:


> I'm thinking monster for lesser, template for greater.




I could see one or both of these done as PrCs.



Shade said:


> And monstrous humanoid seems appropriate.




I'd say monstrous humanoid works for both. Do we need the shapechanger subtype? Even the lesser version is a "disabled shapechanger", so I wonder if it could have the shapechanger subtype too.



Shade said:


> Yes to swim speed.  Maybe hold breath as well?




I agree with the hold breath. Why not go the whole way and give them the crocodile's other abilities too? Improved grab (with their bite attack) and the skill check bonuses would help these creatures hide underwater, ambush people and drag them underwater.

If it looks like a croc, it should fight like a croc.



Shade said:


> I'm trying to find details on Ragarra (to determine if she has a favored weapon).   All I've found so far:
> 
> Ragarra: Goddess of the jungle and its violent denizens, passion, chaos and revenge




Hmm. Sounds like you have the portfolio sorted out (in case we want to convert the goddess). Have you found any cultural information that might explain what worshipers of Ragarra are like?



demiurge1138 said:


> Sure! Is there some way to break the curse on them to restore them to their original form non-fatally?




I'm not sure this *i*s a curse. It might *technically* be a curse, but not one that I think would want lifted. Both the fighters and the clerics seem to be willing participants.



freyar said:


> That probably depends on how we want them to be created.  We know that greater segarrans are created by 12th or higher level clerics, so lesser segarrans might be created by 7th or higher level clerics.  In that case, maybe break enchantment with a CL check vs some reasonable DC could change a lesser segarran back.  What do you think?




Hmm. I'm not sure that 12th level clerics actually *create* greater segarrans. They might count as the "material component", although I already said that I think a PrC is a better match.

I think that the process for Creating a Segarran is more complex than one spell.

Firstly we have the fact that lesser versions can be created using fighters (who worship Ragarra) or baby crocodiles. Second we have the fact that greater versions can be created using clerics. Third we have the fact that both types were once shapechangers (but the lesser type has now lost that power). Forthly we have the fact that the greater type involves a quest and an exausting ceremony. Finally we have the connection with necromancy and undeath (for the greater type).

That doesn't really look like monster creation to me. It looks more like creature transformation. I'm reminded of the Divine Disciple PrC (from FRCS) that works towards Transcendence from Humanoid form to Native Outsider form. 



freyar said:


> Well, they're not quite as good as a 5th level NPC fighter, but could they be as high as CR 4?




How about if they were a 5th level fighter who multiclassed as a crocodile? (Although, that doesn't cover the baby croc version.  )



freyar said:


> I'd say speak Common (and Midani?).  200 lb.  Advancement and treasure are good.




I don't see advancement and treasure yet. I agree with them having both languages.



freyar said:


> Here's the SQ:
> 
> Magic Form (Ex): Lesser segarrans are magical creatures, created from humans or baby crocodiles by a ritual carried out by clerics of Ragarra of at least 7th level.  A true seeing spell reveals a lesser segarran's original form, and lesser segarrans return to their original form on death.  In addition, a break enchantment spell will return a lesser segarran to its original form if the caster succeeds on a DC X caster level check.
> 
> (I'd say maybe DC 21-2, which is the DC for a 4th level spell plus the segarran's SR.  But I'm not sure of the number; this should probably be pretty tough.)




I may have said before that I didn't think this was a curse, but I think that being able to reverse the process could be interesting.

If we say this is shapechanging magic and that people can temporarily reverse the process by doing X, then there would be a 50 percent chance that PCs would be facing a baby crocodile (that they could kill) and a 50 percent chance that they would be facing a 5th level fighter (who was a fanatical follower of Ragarra).

I think that running these as shapechangers and letting PCs reverse the segarran form would be fun, because the greater types could probably resume their altered form as a free action and the lesser types could be forced to fight in their original form for a period of time (X rounds, until they can get the spell dispelled, until the next morning or whatever).


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## GrayLinnorm (Aug 24, 2008)

Big Mac said:


> ...and...
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say monstrous humanoid works for both. Do we need the shapechanger subtype? Even the lesser version is a "disabled shapechanger", so I wonder if it could have the shapechanger subtype too.




I wouldn't give the lesser segarran the shapechanger subtype.  They didn't transform under their own power (and not all transformed voluntarily) and they don't have any shapechanging ability.


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## freyar (Aug 24, 2008)

Big Mac said:


> Rather than have an advancement section for these beasties, maybe we could allow them to be created from 5th or higher level fighter.
> 
> Hmm. Sounds like I'm pushing this back towards a template. But maybe a Prestige Class (for any worshipers of Ragarra with a BAB of X) could do the job.



I think the lesser segarrans are not quite sophisticated enough (in design, not in Int ) to be templates and especially not PrCs.



> As the abilities of the beastie improve as the cleric goes up in levels (wings at 16th level) I wonder if a Prestige Class might be a better way to handle this.



A PrC is an interesting idea for the greater, but the problem I see is that most of the transformation seems to happen right at the beginning.


> The 9 hit dice is a bit confusing. It would make mewonder if the Greater Segarran is created from a 9th level cleric, but lower down the text, we get told that they are created from 12th level clerics. So what happens to the other 3 hit dice? I thought the +18 was hit points Is the +18 actually another 18 hit dice? If it is 18 hit dice, then I'd say that the stats were for an 18th level cleric.



I'm guessing that the 9HD (rather than 12) is an artifact of older edition monster design.  



> I think this should somehow feature in the conversion. If the segarran can open some sort of doorway to Ragarra this ability should return. Alternatively we could offer it as an advancement option (especially if this monster got turned into a Prestige Class).



I'd make this a flavor issue or maybe a variant lesser segarran.



> Perhaps the Organization section of the Greater Segarran should include an escort of Lesser Segarran.



At least as an option, yes, I love this idea.



> Looks like killing a segarran and using spells to bring them back from the dead would make them human. But as they go into this process willingly, I'm not sure they would want that to happen.



I think the idea is that breaking the "curse" is a way to attack them, not anything they would actually want to happen. 



> This is looking more and more like it should be a PrC to me.
> 
> Standard spellcasting rules allow a cleric (or any other spellcaster) to cast lower level spells in spell slots, so I'd say that a 13th level cleric (who gets 7th level spells in 3rd edition) should be able to use the 7th level slots for 6th level spells.



Yeah, this is an interesting point.  There's the difficulty I mentioned above, but I could possibly see the greater segarran as a PrC rather than template.



> Would the tail affect flanking (i.e. can't be flanked)?



Normally it's things like extra eyes (ability to process more information) that makes a difference with flanking, not having an extra body part or attack.


> Should we swap the bat wings for dragon-like wings (to make them more reptillian)? If there is nothing in the blurb of Ruined Kingdoms that associates Ragarra with bats, I say we should make the swap.



I could see a swap, but the bat wings on a croc are nice and creepy.


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2008)

Unless we want to add something about lesser segarrans getting change shape when Ragarra returns, I'd say the lesser ones are done.


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2008)

Let's move on to the greater segarrans.

So...template or prestige class?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 9, 2008)

I like the idea of prestige class. We haven't done many (any?) of those.


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2008)

Prestige class it is!

Let's start with prereqs...



> In addition to the loss of her most powerful spell, a priestess of Ragarra must have a Wisdom of 17 and be at least 12th level to complete the exhausting ceremony that transforms her into a greater segarran.
> 
> In return for such power, the priestess must swear to undertake a difficult quest or perform a dangerous service for her goddess. Those few who disappoint Ragarra are punished with a painful demise and suffer an eternity of undeath. More details about the cult of Ragnarra can be found in Chapter Three of the Campaign Guide.




Prequisites:
Race: Human  (I'd be fine with extending this to humanoids)
Gender: Female
Wisdom:  17
Patron Deity: Ragarra
Spells: Able to cast 6th-level or higher divine spells.
Special:  Must swear to undertake a difficult quest or perform a dangerous service for Ragarra.


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2008)

I like the prereqs, though I think I'd go with humanoids in general.

5 or 10 level PrC?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 10, 2008)

Humanoids I think. And 5 level should be good.


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2008)

> Once transformed, they retain their original human form. Furthermore, they can also assume a towering reptilian shape at will, with the transformation taking but a single round. This reptilian form depends on the personality or whim of the priestess, but usually includes at least the head and tail of a giant crocodile, At 16th level, a greater segarran's reptile form can also include a pair of giant bat wings, permitting her to fly at a rate of 18.




Reptilian form at 1st-level, wings at 5th?



> Combat: While in human form, Ragarra's chosen fight using the tactics, magical items, and weapons of priests, though their supernatural strength lends them a +6 bonus on damage.




+2 (or even +4) bonus to Str at 1st, 3rd, and 5th levels?



> They never wear armor, though they may use magical Items (such as a ring of protection) to enhance their Armor Class.




Class limitation?



> All greater segarrans have 20% magic resistance.




That equates to CR+5, so how about spell resistance equals total HD + 5?



> Although they retain most of their priest spells from before the transformation, greater segarrans cannot memorize the highest level spells to which they are normally allowed (for instance, a 13th-level priestess, while a greater segarran, cannot memorize or cast her 6th-level spells).




Should she actually sacrifice top level spells, or should we just slow spellcasting progression?



> In her reptilian form, a greater segarran can attack with her massive jaws (3d6 points of damage) and swipe up to 3 opponents standing beside or behind her with her powerful tail (2d10 points of damage). At 16th level, a segarran's bat wings can also be used for two wing buffets instead of flight, each inflicting 2d6 points of damage. All victims of a tail swipe or wing buffet must save vs. paralyzation or be stunned for 1-4 rounds.




Abilities gained at same level as the physical form?  Or maybe give tail slap at 1st level, but hold off tail sweep until 3rd?


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2008)

Shade said:


> Reptilian form at 1st-level, wings at 5th?



Sounds good.



> +2 (or even +4) bonus to Str at 1st, 3rd, and 5th levels?
> ...
> Class limitation?



I would go with +4 at those 3 levels, but then make the armor loss a class restriction to balance a little.  Other thoughts?  We could certainly give a somewhat compensating natural armor bonus in reptilian form.



> That equates to CR+5, so how about spell resistance equals total HD + 5?



Sounds right.



> Should she actually sacrifice top level spells, or should we just slow spellcasting progression?



How about +1 level spell casting only at 2nd, 4th, and 5th levels?



> Abilities gained at same level as the physical form?  Or maybe give tail slap at 1st level, but hold off tail sweep until 3rd?




I like holding the tail sweep until 3rd level.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 12, 2008)

I agree with freyar's assessments, but we should establish what they lose by wearing armor. I'm thinking spell resistance and their Strength bonus.


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I agree with freyar's assessments, but we should establish what they lose by wearing armor. I'm thinking spell resistance and their Strength bonus.



I say make it like a druid: no divine spells or Sp or Su class abilities for 24 hours after (including the reptilian form, of course).


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## Shade (Sep 12, 2008)

Added  to the bottom of the segarran entry.


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2008)

Proficient with all simple weapons?

Ok, what kind of stats do we want for the reptilian form?  Large, bite attack, tail slap?  Some kind of natural armor bonus, probably.  Any thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 12, 2008)

All of freyar's suggestions sound good. Maybe a climb and/or swim speed as well. 

I think we should split up the abilities a little; right now, the spellcasting clumps at even levels and the other abilities at odd ones. Perhaps give it spell resistance at 2nd level?


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## freyar (Sep 13, 2008)

A swim speed sounds good, since it's probably going to be roughly crocodilian.

Moving SR to 2nd level works for me.  That does even things out a bit.


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

How's this?

Reptilian Form (Su):  At 1st level, a greater segarran may assume the form of a humanoid/reptilian hybrid.   While in this form, the segarran increases by one size category, gains a +2 natural armor bonus, and gains a bite and tail slap attack.  The bite attack is a primary natural weapon that deals 3d6 + segarran's Str modifier points of damage, and a tail slap attack that deals 2d10 + 1-1/2 times the segarran's Str modifier points of damage.

In reptilian form, the segarran gains a swim speed of 30 feet.  It gains a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

Tail Sweep (Ex): At 3rd-level, when assuming reptilian form, a greater segarran can sweep with its tail as a standard action. The sweep affects a half-circle with a radius of 5 feet, extending from an intersection on the edge of the segarran's space in any direction. Creatures within the swept area are affected if they are one or more size categories smaller than the segarran. A tail sweep automatically deals tail slap damage and affected creatures must make Reflex saves (DC 10 + 1/2 segarran's Hit Dice + segarran's Strength modifier) or be knocked prone. 

Wings (Ex):  At 5th level, when assuming reptilian form, a greater segarran grows two batlike wings.  This grants it a fly speed of 50 feet (poor maneuverability).  Additionally, the segarran gains two wing buffet attacks as secondary natural weapons that deal 1d4 + 1/2 Strength modifier points of damage.


Should the greater segarran gain the reptilian and shapechanger subtypes?   Should we also add the reptilian subtype to the lesser segarran?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 16, 2008)

Yes to reptile and shapechanger subtypes. We may want to change tail sweep so it can affect creatures the same size as the greater segarran.


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Yes to reptile and shapechanger subtypes. We may want to change tail sweep so it can affect creatures the same size as the greater segarran.



I'd say yes to the subtypes and also to adding reptilian to the lesser version.  But I think the tail sweep should only affect smaller critters, since it only reaches 5ft.


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2008)

freyar said:


> I'd say yes to the subtypes and also to adding reptilian to the lesser version.  But I think the tail sweep should only affect smaller critters, since it only reaches 5ft.




Alternatively, we could just allow it to make trip attacks with its tail, which would not have a size limit (but would be affected by size modifiers).  Thoughts?

Should we add glaive to the weapon proficienies, since we decided that would be the chosen weapon of Ragarra?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 17, 2008)

The tripping tail works better than the sweep for me.


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

Sure, let's give it a trip attack with the tail (like the wolf again?).

I'm all for adding glaive to weapon proficiency.


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2008)

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

Looks done to me.


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## talinthalas (Oct 1, 2008)

What's next?  I can make suggestions either the Zin or the Maskhi.


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2008)

I've got a couple undead earmarked for "Horror Month", but I'll add those two to the requests list.


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2008)

*Sundel Bolong (Lesser Spirit)*
Frequency: Rare
No. Appearing: 1
Armor Class: 8
Move: 12.
Hit Dice: 2
% in Lair: Nil
Treasure Type: Nil
No. of Attacks: 2
Damage/Attack: 1-3/1-3
Special Attacks: Charm, fear (see below)
Special Defenses: +1 or better weapon to hit, etherealness
at will
Magic Resistance: Standard
Intelligence: Low
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Size: M
Psionic Ability: Nil
Attack/defense modes: Nil
Level/X.P. Value: III/52 + 2 per hp

The sundel bolong is an evil spirit visible only to male characters. It appears as a beautiful woman with long, black hair that hangs below her waist. This hair hides the distinguishing feature of a sundel bolong: a gaping hole through the middle of its back.

Lone males are this spirit’s typical victims. It appears to them, perhaps stepping out from behind a tree or rock, and beckons, wordlessly promising gratuitous, earthly delights. Characters who choose not to follow of their own will must save versus spells or be charmed into doing so anyway. If the charm fails, then the character sees the hole in the woman, and realizes its supernatural character; he must then save versus wands or be struck by fear.

Characters foolish or unfortunate enough to follow a sundel bolong apparently find their expected pleasures abruptly terminated, as such men are always later found dead and horribly mutilated.

The sundel bolong avoids melee; its first defense is to inspire fear; then, it may retreat to the ethereal plane. If caught there, it may defend itself with its long fingernails.  Like many other spirits, the sundel bolong prefers to operate at night. It particularly likes to choose sentries as its victims.

Originally appeared in Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms (1988).


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## freyar (Oct 3, 2008)

I get the feeling we should figure out how it kills the charmed victims...

They don't seem incorporeal, but they can jump to ethereal -- maybe like the etheral filcher or stalker.


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2008)

Or perhaps a variant ghost?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2008)

The fact that they only fight on the ethereal makes me think "ghost variant".


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## freyar (Oct 6, 2008)

That's fine for me.  So manifestation, charm or suggestion of some type, and some way to kill the victims.  Maybe an altered malevolence or something?


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2008)

Template or monster?


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 7, 2008)

I vote monster.  We don't want to make it too much like a ghost.


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## freyar (Oct 8, 2008)

Monster's fine with me.  Any other thoughts on how it does it's killing?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 8, 2008)

Perhaps it forces them to commit suicide, ala the death urge psionic power?


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## freyar (Oct 8, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Perhaps it forces them to commit suicide, ala the death urge psionic power?



Not a bad idea, though the victims are probably somewhat likely to be unarmed.  We'll have to modify this a bit.  Are there any spells or powers that scare someone to death?


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2008)

Phantasmal killer comes to mind.


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2008)

Phantasmal killer seems just about right.  Modifying:

Killing Form (Sp): Three times per day as a standard action, a sundel can affect a chosen individual as with a phantasmal killer at CL X, except as follows.  First, the sundel itself appears to the victim to be the beast listed in the spell description.  Also, the phantasmal killer cannot be turned back on the sundel.  Victims that have been previously charmed by the sundel take a -2 morale penalty to their saves against the killing form.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 10, 2008)

I like the charm = penalty mechanic. Nasty.


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## Shade (Oct 10, 2008)

Let's figure out some ability scores...

Int is Low (5-7).  Ghosts generally have high Charisma (the template grants +4), and this creatures seems very Cha-based.  Dex should yield a +2 bonus to achieve the converted AC (discounting the deflection bonus gained when manifested).  Str seems average.

So maybe Str 10, Dex 14, Con -, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 15?


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## freyar (Oct 11, 2008)

If these are variant ghosts, shouldn't they be incorporeal and have Str -?


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2008)

freyar said:


> If these are variant ghosts, shouldn't they be incorporeal and have Str -?




Nope.  Ghosts have a Str score, and are only incorporeal on the Material Plane.  On the Ethereal Plane they are corporeal and use their Str modifier for attacks and damage.


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## freyar (Oct 14, 2008)

How weird.  I thought the incorporeal subtype includes a line saying no Str score.  Ok then.   The abilities look fine.


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2008)

freyar said:


> How weird.  I thought the incorporeal subtype includes a line saying no Str score.  Ok then.   The abilities look fine.




It does.     Ghosts simply have a score because they aren't incorporeal if faced on the Ethereal Plane.   I know, it's odd.  

Added to Homebrews, using the sample ghost as a "role model" for figuring out how to list the Material vs. Ethereal in the stat block.


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## freyar (Oct 14, 2008)

Looking good!  Any other special abilities before moving on?


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2008)

> The sundel bolong is an evil spirit visible only to male characters.




Invisibility to females?



> Lone males are this spirit’s typical victims. It appears to them, perhaps stepping out from behind a tree or rock, and beckons, wordlessly promising gratuitous, earthly delights. Characters who choose not to follow of their own will must save versus spells or be charmed into doing so anyway. If the charm fails, then the character sees the hole in the woman, and realizes its supernatural character; he must then save versus wands or be struck by fear.




Charm, followed by frightful presence on a successful save?

Should the charm be similar to the rusalka's beguiling song again?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2008)

The beguiling song seems like a safe bet.

Invisibility to females might be interesting, but could also be interpreted as "they only appear to males". I like invisibility to females, though.


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2008)

I also like invisibility to females.  And the rest looks good, too.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2008)

How are these?

Beckoning (Su): A sundel bolong can attempt to charm creatures by promising gratuitous, earthly delights. The sundel bolong targets a single male creature it can see within x feet. This is a mind-affecting ability, and the creature must be able to see the sundel bolong for it to take effect. The targeted creature must make a DC x Will saving throw. If the save is successful, the creature must succeed on a second DC Will save or be panicked(?) for x rounds.

If the initial save fails, the creature is utterly beguiled and moves toward the sundel bolong, taking the most direct route available. If that path leads into a dangerous area (such as very deep or fast-moving water) the beguiled creature gets a second saving throw. A beguiled creature may take no actions other than defending himself. A beguiled victim who moves within 5 feet of the sundel bolong must make a DC x Will saving throw or be charmed as per charm monster cast by an 8th-level sorcerer. Success means that the character is freed from the beguilement, but immediately sees the sundel bolong for what she truly is, and must on a DC x Will save or be panicked(?) for x rounds. The beguiling effect continues so long as the sundel bolong beckons. A sundel bolong does not need to continue to beckon to keep a victim charmed.

Invisibility to Females (Su): A sundel bolong can only be seen by male creatures.  This ability is constant, allowing a sundel bolong to remain invisible even when attacking. This ability is inherent and not subject to the invisibility purge spell.  This invisibility extends to creatures with no gender (such as constructs or oozes).


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2008)

Let's do frightened rather than panicked, and let's make it 1d4 rounds in both cases.  We should say the save DCs are Cha-based, and I think a range of 30 ft is reasonable for their HD.

Invisibility to females looks good.


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2008)

Updated.

Caster level for killing form?

Skills: 10

Feats: 1

Environment: Any land or Ethereal Plane?

Challenge Rating: 4?  (The killing form is quite deadly, and since it is based off a 4th-level spell, the save DC will be 16)

Alignment: Always neutral evil?

Advancement: x


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2008)

Doesn't hurt anything to make it CL 2, does it?  I think that only affects range, so I'm also fine going up to CL 7.

Should we turn killing form into Su to keep the DC from being too much (or would we just go with Ability Focus then anyway)?

Skills: Concentration, Spot?

Feats: maybe Weapon Finesse if we don't want to overdo the Killing Form DC.

CR 4 might just be reasonable.  

Alignment and environment are good.

3-8 HD (Medium)?

They speak the language they spoke in life, usually Common.


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2008)

Agreed with most of that.

Weapon Finesse is probably unnecessary, since they'll get their Dex bonus on attack rolls when incorporeal anyway.   Ability Focus seems unfair at this CR.  Maybe Weapon Focus, since that will benefit them when fighting on both planes?


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2008)

Weapon Focus works for me.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 17, 2008)

Looks good to me.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2008)

Updated.  I think we're finished.


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2008)

I think you want to put (touch) on the weapon focus, but then it's done.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2008)

Fixed.

This next one has already been converted by a few other sites, but I feel we need to get our take on it before moving onto the unconverted lesser ghul and ghul-kin.

*Ghul, Great* 
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Desert, mountains
FREQUENCY: Rare 
ORGANIZATION: Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Scavenger
INTELLIGENCE: High (13-14)
TREASURE: C
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 18 (Br 3 or Cl 12)
HIT DICE: 4 
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1-6/2-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Magic use, shapeshifting
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell immunities, +1 weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (7-10')
MORALE: Average (8-10)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: Common: 1,400
1st- to 4th-level mage: 2,000
5th- to 7th-level mage: 3,000

The great ghuls are undead elemental cousins of the genies, the most wicked members of an inferior order of jann. They haunt burial grounds and feed on dead human bodies. They are usually female, and all great ghuls are beguiling and seductive shapechangers.

No matter what form they take, however, their feet always remain those of a donkey, though they often wear special boots or long robes to conceal this aberration. Ghuls delight in devouring the flesh of their victims and then sucking the marrow from the bones.

Great ghuls have thick hair and bushy eyebrows that often droop over their eyes. Their hands end in clawed fingers, and their feet and sometimes their ears are those of a donkey. Their jaws jut out and are powerfully muscled. Their pale white skin is always cold and clammy, and they have the hunched posture of their lesser cousins. Great ghuls are aware of how their looks repulse other creatures and are eager to disguise their true appearance with cosmetics, clothes, and jewelry. While most great ghuls stand over 7' tall, those that are mages typically stand about 10' tall. In their polymorphed form they are often smaller.

Combat: Great ghuls attack with their claws and their powerful jaws. They can only be struck by magical weapons. Great ghuls can use each of the following spell-like abilities at will: bestow invisibility, polymorph self, and shocking grasp.

Like most undead, great ghuls are immune to sleep, charm, hold, and cold-based magic. They are not affected by paralyzation or poison. Great ghuls can be turned as ghasts, and mage ghuls are turned as wraiths. They suffer 2-12 points of damage from holy water, and they suffer a -1 to their attack rolls in daylight.

Only jann slain by great ghuls become ghuls themselves; all other races are simply slain and devoured.

About one in every six great ghuls is a mage of up to 7th level of ability. Great ghuls may even become sha'ir, thus gaining some measure of power over other genies. Other great ghuls study the magical provinces of flame, sand, and wind. Ghuls who study the magic of the sea are extremely rare. All ghuls are immune to the binding and capturing powers of the sha'ir.

Habitat/Society: Great ghuls live in seclusion in ruins or caves found in the emptiest deserts or on the highest mountains. Because of their sharp claws and incredible strength, great ghuls from the mountains are able to climb sheer rock walls that would daunt most mountaineers. Desert ghuls are not as adept at this, but can dig through sand or soft stones. All ghuls take only half damage from falls.

Great ghuls are fond of all forms of perfumes and scents, such as attar of orange, rosewater, cloves, and so on. They use these to cover their own unpleasant smell.

Great ghul mages are solitary creatures, though other great ghuls form packs with their siblings (if they have any).

Because great ghuls are feared by humans and despised by genies, they rarely keep their own form, even when at home in their lonely caves and ruins. Shapeshifting has become a habit for the great ghuls, and they are excellent actors and liars. Great ghuls have many opportunities to practice these deceptions when they travel among humans. Though solitary, they grow bored easily, and this seems to motivate them to take part in pranks and daring deeds that sometimes put them and the secret of their true identities at considerable risk. Some of their pranks are less amusing than others: great ghuls are particularly fond of joining groups of nomads and travelers and then leading them astray. Many of these travelers are led to their deaths and consumed by the carrion-eating ghuls.

Ecology: Great ghuls serve the genies (when required), but "lord it" over the ghouls, who are considered unrefined and unreliable.

Great ghuls who become sha'ir are very secretive; the other genies resent and fear the ghuls' power over them. Such great ghuls are often destroyed when their homes are discovered.

In general, all great ghuls avoid contact with other races because violence often follows. But, they do sometimes help humans and others who come to them seeking help against other genies. Sometimes they also help humans in quests which the great ghuls find interesting, and they do this without expectation of reward.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix (1992).

*Lesser Ghuls*
The lesser ghuls occupy the bottom of the hierarchy.  They are created from human women abducted from High Desert villages, transformed into near-mindless "brides" by Ahz'ahk's powerful magic. Sita is one of these creatures.

The lesser ghuls function as slaves, performing all of the menial labor. They wear identical black wool abas and black silk burqas. (A burqa is a masklike veil that ties around the head with silken cords, hanging down to completely conceal the face and neck. The eyes show through a pair of slits.) The lesser ghuls color the tips of their fingers red with henna, a symbol of subservience.

Lesser ghul: Int average (8); AL NE; AC 2; MV 12 (Br 1 or Cl 3); HD 3; hp 20; THAC0 17; #AT 3; Dmg 1d4/1d4/2d4 (claws and bite); SA invisibility, polymorph self, and shocking grasp, all at will; SD immune to sleep, charm, hold, and cold-based magic; +1 weapon to hit; -1 to their attack rolls in daylight; SZ M (6' tall); ML 8; XP 975.

*Great Ghuls*

The great ghuls assist with routine chores, but mainly function as supervisors of the lesser ghuls. Ahz'ahk creates great ghuls from the ranks of the lesser ghuls, a reward for loyal service. Like the lesser ghuls, the great ghuls wear black abas and burqas, and they color their fingers with henna. To signify their higher status, they wear jewelry: silver rings with turquoise settings (khamzars) on their little fingers, strings of golden beads (kitbats) woven into their hair, and bracelets of glass beads in bright colors (dalags). Ahz'ahk does not allow any of his great ghuls to become mages.

In most situations great ghuls will not speak with the party. If a PC approaches one, she hisses and claws the air until the character moves away.

Great ghul: Int high (13); AL NE; AC 0; MV 18 (Br 3 or Cl 12); HD 4; hp 28; THAC0 15; #AT 3; Dmg 1d6/1d6/2d6 (claws and bite); SA invisibility, polymorph self, and shocking grasp, all at will; SD immune to sleep, charm, hold, and cold-based magic; +1 weapon to hit; -1 to their attack rolls in daylight; SZ M (9' tall); ML 8; XP 1,400.

Background: This episode takes place in the palace of Ahz'ahk, the home of a noble efreeti exiled from the City of Brass.  Located deep beneath the Pit of the Ghuls, the palace contains hundreds of servitors, responsible for maintenance, security, and construction. They also attend to Ahz'ahk's every whim.

Originally appeared in Caravans (1994).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 18, 2008)

Neat! Ghuls! So, do we want to stat up a ghul-mage as well?


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## freyar (Oct 19, 2008)

I'm wondering -- do ghul-mages have more stats than what's given?  Also, do we want to do great ghuls as monsters and ghul-mages as a template for them?


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2008)

I'm leaning toward monster for the lesser and greater ghuls.


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2008)

Agreed.  The question for me is whether mage-ghuls should be a template or just ghuls with sorc or wiz levels.  Edit: or a PrC even.


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2008)

It struck me as simply "with class levels".  But if you guys think it would work better as a template or PRC, I'm all ears.


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2008)

Ok, jann are Str 16, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 13.  Change Con to - clearly, but what do we want to do with the rest of the abilities?  Nothing really seems to speak to any particular changes.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 21, 2008)

I think ghul-mages should be "with class levels".

Ghuls should be stronger than janni, maybe more charismatic.


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2008)

The ghoulish creature template adss +2 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, and +6 Charisma.  We could use that for inspiration.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 21, 2008)

I'm not seeing ghuls as that dextrous. Strong, charismatic and intelligent, yes. Dextrous, no.


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2008)

So...

Str 18, Dex 15, Con -, Int 16, Wis 19, Cha 19?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 22, 2008)

Looks good to me


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2008)

On the everpresent question: I think we should go with change shape if we follow the example of the only genie with those abilities (efreet).


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2008)

freyar said:


> On the everpresent question: I think we should go with change shape if we follow the example of the only genie with those abilities (efreet).




An excellent reason to do so.


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2008)

> They can only be struck by magical weapons. Great ghuls can use each of the following spell-like abilities at will: bestow invisibility, polymorph self, and shocking grasp.



DR 5/magic?  Replace polymorph self with change shape, I guess.  So invisibility and shocking grasp as at will SLAs?



> Only jann slain by great ghuls become ghuls themselves; all other races are simply slain and devoured.



Create spawn limited to jann?



> Great ghuls live in seclusion in ruins or caves found in the emptiest deserts or on the highest mountains. Because of their sharp claws and incredible strength, great ghuls from the mountains are able to climb sheer rock walls that would daunt most mountaineers. Desert ghuls are not as adept at this, but can dig through sand or soft stones. All ghuls take only half damage from falls.



Climb speed or just Climb skill bonus (maybe a variant with lower bonus or no climb speed?)  Something like the monk's Slow Fall?


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2008)

freyar said:


> DR 5/magic?  Replace polymorph self with change shape, I guess.  So invisibility and shocking grasp as at will SLAs?




Yes to all that, although I could see DR /cold iron since they seem somewhat feylike.



freyar said:


> Create spawn limited to jann?




Yep.



freyar said:


> Climb speed or just Climb skill bonus (maybe a variant with lower bonus or no climb speed?)  Something like the monk's Slow Fall?




Do we want to distinguish desert vs. mountain ghuls?   If so, I'd say make the desert variety the standard and the mountain the variant.  Regardless, I think I prefer climb speed to Climb bonus (since they actually had a climb speed on the old stat block).


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2008)

Since it's only a throw-away reference, let's not do variants except perhaps in flavor text.  Climb speed is good.

I could also see cold iron for the DR, but these probably shouldn't have too tough DR.  Maybe magic or cold iron?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2008)

I like magic or cold iron for the DR.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

freyar said:


> Since it's only a throw-away reference, let's not do variants except perhaps in flavor text.  Climb speed is good.




It's not a complete throwaway, though, as the burrow and climb speeds are both listed in the stat block, but the flavor indicates that a given variety has only one or the other.

I concur with magic or cold iron for the DR.

Updated.



> No matter what form they take, however, their feet always remain those of a donkey, though they often wear special boots or long robes to conceal this aberration.




How about modifying this?

Diminished Change Shape (Su): A young silat can assume the shape of any Medium or Large humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or giant three times per day. This works exactly as the Change Shape special ability, except that the young silat cannot transform the appearance of her feet. The young silat therefore only gains a bonus of +6 to Disguise checks when using this ability to disguise itself.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2008)

We used Diminished Change Shape before, right? Some haggish thing, don't remember the name... I like it.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

Yep, the silat is the creature you've described.

Updated.


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## freyar (Oct 24, 2008)

If you want to do varieties, then let's just do a sidebar.  Pick one of them as standard (desert, I guess), drop the appropriate speed in the statblock, and write a sidebar? 

Diminished change shape is perfect.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

freyar said:


> If you want to do varieties, then let's just do a sidebar.  Pick one of them as standard (desert, I guess), drop the appropriate speed in the statblock, and write a sidebar?




Yep, that's what I was implying (poorly).


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## freyar (Oct 26, 2008)

So... desert is the main kind?


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2008)

freyar said:


> So... desert is the main kind?




Yep.  Updated.



> All ghuls take only half damage from falls.




Slow fall like a monk?

AC converts to 20.  With their current Dex modifier, that yields +8 natural.  Ghouls have +2 and ghasts have +4, so that seems a little high.  Wanna increase Dex a bit, or give them a deflection (Cha-based) or insight (Wis-based) bonus, or even a profane bonus, to AC?

Skills: 42
Bluff 7, Concentration 7, Disguise 7...

Feats: 2
Some ideas: Deceitful, Persuasive, Skill Focus (disguise)


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 27, 2008)

Insight bonus to AC seems interesting. But I should point out that efreets have a +6 natural armor bonus. An undead of the same having an additional +2 isn't that out of the ordinary. I'd be fine with all that AC coming from natural armor.


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## talinthalas (Oct 27, 2008)

Of course Ghuls, are undead Janni which only have a natural armor bonus of +1.  I like the idea of an insight bonus to AC.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Insight bonus to AC seems interesting. But I should point out that efreets have a +6 natural armor bonus. An undead of the same having an additional +2 isn't that out of the ordinary. I'd be fine with all that AC coming from natural armor.




I can see where you're coming from, but janni (upon which they are based) only have +1 natural armor.  Add that to the +4 for ghasts, and we're at +5.  

How about +4 natural, insight equal to Cha (+4 for a typical ghul)?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 27, 2008)

Sounds good by me. I somehow missed that these were undead janni specifically.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2008)

Updated.

Slow fall like a monk?

Skills: 42
Bluff 7, Concentration 7, Disguise 7...

Feats: 2
Some ideas: Deceitful, Persuasive, Skill Focus (disguise)


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2008)

Yes to slow fall.

Move Silently, Spot, Intimidate?  Or we could swap Spot for Forgery if we go with Deceitful.

So...  I like Persuasive.  Probably Skill Focus (Disguise), but Deceitful if we use Forgery.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2008)

Slow fall equal to a monk of a level equal to ghul's Hit Dice?  (That way it scales).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2008)

Sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2008)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Skills: 42
> Bluff 7, Concentration 7, Disguise 7...
> ...






freyar said:


> Move Silently, Spot, Intimidate?  Or we could swap Spot for Forgery if we go with Deceitful.
> 
> So...  I like Persuasive.  Probably Skill Focus (Disguise), but Deceitful if we use Forgery.




I suppose we should also consider the janni's feats and skills:

Skills: Appraise +11, Concentration +10, Craft (any two) +11, Diplomacy +3, Escape Artist +6, Listen +11, Move Silently +6, Ride +11, Sense Motive +11, Spot +11, Use Rope +2 (+4 with bindings)

Feats: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative (B), Mobility


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2008)

Improved Initiative as a bonus feat appeals to me. Not a big fan of Forgery. I think we should only give them one skill feat (I'm leaning Persuasive) and one more combat-oriented feat. How about Multiattack?


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2008)

Updated.

A great ghul stands over 7 feet tall and weighs x pounds. 

Great ghuls speak x.  [Jann speak Common, one elemental language (Aquan, Auran, Ignan, or Terran) and one alignment language (Abyssal, Celestial, or Infernal).]

Caster level 4th for SLAs?  Or 8th?  [Janni are CL12th, twice their HD]


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2008)

Wait a sec. These are great ghuls? With 4 HD? What do ordinary ghuls look like, the poor saps?

How many HD did jann have in 2e? If it's 6, then I'm crazy and let's move on. If it's less than that... these guys need a boost.

Agreed to twice HD for CL. Let's give them Common, one elemental language, Abyssal and Infernal.


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Wait a sec. These are great ghuls? With 4 HD? What do ordinary ghuls look like, the poor saps?
> 
> How many HD did jann have in 2e? If it's 6, then I'm crazy and let's move on. If it's less than that... these guys need a boost.




I'm afraid you're crazy.     They have 6+2 HD in the 2e Monstrous Manual.

I think it is because they are based on "the most wicked members of an inferior order of jann." 

Lesser ghuls have 3 Hit Dice.  They lack some of the abilities and are considered an inferior caste, so I think that's the bulk of the "lesser" tag.

I'm guessing the great ghuls start at relatively low Hit Dice to allow for the ghul-mages to remain within reasonable 2e levels.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 30, 2008)

OK. That makes sense.


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2008)

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or pack (2-3)?

Challenge Rating: 3?  (They seem on par with a ghast)

Treasure: Standard? (like janni)

Alignment: Always neutral evil?

Advancement: 5-8 HD (Medium); 6-12 HD (Large) or by character class?

Level Adjustment: +6?

A great ghul stands over 7 feet tall and weighs x pounds


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## freyar (Oct 30, 2008)

Lesser ghuls also can be created out of humanoids, according to the original text.

200-250 lb?

All the suggestions seem good.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 30, 2008)

2-3 seems like a small pack. Otherwise, agree with all of your suggestions.

I envision these guys as gaunt. 150 pounds?


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> 2-3 seems like a small pack. Otherwise, agree with all of your suggestions.




Yeah, it does.  Raising to 2-6.

Updated.

All done?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 30, 2008)

Done!


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2008)

Yup, ready for the lesser ones.


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2008)

> *Lesser Ghuls*
> The lesser ghuls occupy the bottom of the hierarchy. They are created from human women abducted from High Desert villages, transformed into near-mindless "brides" by Ahz'ahk's powerful magic. Sita is one of these creatures.
> 
> The lesser ghuls function as slaves, performing all of the menial labor. They wear identical black wool abas and black silk burqas. (A burqa is a masklike veil that ties around the head with silken cords, hanging down to completely conceal the face and neck. The eyes show through a pair of slits.) The lesser ghuls color the tips of their fingers red with henna, a symbol of subservience.
> ...




So it looks like 1 less HD, 2 less AC, reduced speed, lesser damage, and reduce Intelligence.

We gave great ghuls Str 18, Dex 15, Con —, Int 16, Wis 19, Cha 19.

Maybe Str 14, Dex 15, Con —, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 12 for lessers?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 31, 2008)

Looks good to me. They have all the same Sps and diminished change shape, but also have light sensitivity.


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2008)

Drop create spawn and turn resistance?



> Ahz'ahk creates great ghuls from the ranks of the lesser ghuls, a reward for loyal service.




So advancement simply to great ghul?  Or should we allow "by character class" as well?


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2008)

Agreed to everything so far.  I'd say let's do HD advancement to great ghuls as well as character class.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 31, 2008)

Agreed, agreed and agreed. We should probably also drop slow fall.


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2008)

Yes to dropping slow fall.  These are pretty basic critters.


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 18 ranks (great ghuls have Bluff, Concentration, Disguise, Intimidate, Move Silently, Spot)

Challenge Rating: x

Lesser ghuls speak Abyssal, Common, Infernal, and one elemental language (Aquan, Auran, Ignan, or Terran).  Retain all these?


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2008)

3 ranks of each skill is ok, or we could max Concentration, Disguise, and Spot.

Languages are good.

CR is probably 2.


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2008)

Updated.

I went with 3 ranks of each, but reallocated the Intimidate ranks, as they sound quite subservient.

Does 120 pounds seem reasonable?


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2008)

Yeah, agreed on dropping Intimidate.  120 lb is ok, definitely on the skinny side.


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## Shade (Nov 4, 2008)

Updated.  Is this one done?


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## freyar (Nov 4, 2008)

Just about.  You might also mention that some powerful genies seem to have discovered how to create lesser ghuls from humanoids and not just jann.


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2008)

OK.  Updated.


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## freyar (Nov 7, 2008)

Looks done!


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 7, 2008)

I am inclined to agree.


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2008)

Do we want to stat up a sample ghul mage next?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 9, 2008)

Sure. 8th level sorcerer?


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## freyar (Nov 10, 2008)

Sounds good.  Maybe focusing on necromancy?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 10, 2008)

Sure! How's this for a spell-list? We don't have its ability scores yet, so I don't know how many it'll get each day, but...

4th--animate dead (fear is also a strong option)
3rd--haste, ray of exhaustion (vampiric touch and suggestion are also strong options)
2nd--acid arrow, bull's strength, ghoul touch (if we give it vampiric touch, might want to swap one of these for spectral hand)
1st--charm person, mage armor, magic missile, ray of enfeeblement, shield
0th--dancing lights, daze, ghost sound, mage hand, message, prestidigitation, resistance, touch of fatigue


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2008)

Looks good.  If we're going to be heavy on necromancy, I'd say put in vampiric touch for haste and spectral hand for acid arrow.  What do you think?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 12, 2008)

Sounds fine by me.


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2008)

That list looks great.  I'll try to get a Homebrews going for this fella soon.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 1, 2008)

Uh-oh. I noticed that the flavor-text says that ghul-mages favor Air, Earth and Fire magic. We, on the other hand, have given him lots of necromancy. Do we want to scrub out that flavor-text, or rewrite his spells known?

As for feats: Eschew Materials, Skill Focus (concentration), Spell Focus (necromancy)


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2008)

I'd rather not drop the flavor text, as it was the original intent.  However, we could just add necromancy to that list, right?

The feats look good.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 1, 2008)

Yeah, let's add necromancy to the list. And we should actually add some spells that reflect the rest of the flavor-text. Like switching ghoul touch for scorching ray, shield for burning hands, or even animate dead for stoneskin.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2008)

Updated, and also updated great ghul entry to reflect the flavor change.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 1, 2008)

Remember, Spell Focus is +1 to the spell DC in 3.5, not +2. In addition, undead always recieve d12 HD, regardless of their class (to make up for the loss of a Con modifier).


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## freyar (Dec 2, 2008)

Is that generally true for all undead?  I didn't see that in the undead type (I believe your reasoning, though).

Looks pretty good.  The first line of flavor should say "gifted" and not "giften."


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 2, 2008)

It's one of those rules-grey areas. It's actually spelled out in Libris Mortis.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> It's one of those rules-grey areas. It's actually spelled out in Libris Mortis.




Interesting.  It's true...ya learn something new everyday.  

Updated.

I've found a potential problem with the way we worked the great ghul...



> Spell-Like Abilities: At will—invisibility (self only), shocking grasp. Caster level equals twice ghul's Hit Dice (8th for a typical great ghul). The save DCs are Charisma-based.




Since the ghul mage rolls all its HD into d12s, it would seem to indicate that it has 12 HD, which would make caster level 24th, which seems quite excessive.   Perhaps we should enforce a hard cap based on normal advancement by HD?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 2, 2008)

The HD cap should be based on its racial HD, not class HD.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2008)

Ahh, OK.

Updated.

We have 56 sorcerer skill ranks to spend, and then I think we're finished.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 2, 2008)

Knowledge (arcana) 15 ranks, Knowledge (planes) 15 ranks, Spellcraft 15 ranks, Bluff 5 ranks, Concentration 6 ranks.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2008)

Updated.

All done?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 2, 2008)

I think we're done, unless we want to equip him.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2008)

Suggestions for equipment?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 3, 2008)

Cloak of Cha +2 and a few wands and/or scrolls. Scroll of animate dead, wand of ghoul touch (10 charges)?


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2008)

Sounds good.   Updated.

Ready for the next ghul-kin?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 3, 2008)

Yes indeed!


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2008)

*Ghul-kin, Soultaker*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Scavenger
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional (15-16)
TREASURE: C
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 18, Sw 12
HIT DICE: 8
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 or 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK:  1d6/1d6/2d6 or special
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Possession
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to non-wooden weapons
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (8-10' tall)
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
XP VALUE: 6,000

The ghul-kin are related to the great ghuls, and like them are undead jann. Unlike their cousins, ghul-kin are differentiated into two distinct types, Soultakers and Witherers. While they prefer to feed on dead human bodies, ghul-kin find no pleasure in haunting burial grounds. They are far more social creatures than their cousins and often interact with mortals and even live among them undetected for long periods of time. Their greatest desires are to rule over a cowed mortal population, to corrupt mortals and use them as their servants, to have a steady supply of victims whose bodies they can devour, and to achieve enough personal power and learn enough secrets to successfully control other genies.

Like their cousins the great ghuls, ghul-kin are shapechangers. They will usually assume attractive, seductive shapes, though they occasionally take on forms designed to look virtuous or wise. They may even assume the appearance of a real person they have seen at least once, though there is always something not quite right about such impersonations (eyes the wrong color, incorrectly shaped ears, etc.). If they have heard the person speak, they can perform a mimicry of the voice, achieving a close approximation.

In their true forms, both male and female ghul-kin are 8 to 10 feet tall, with long, gangly arms and legs. They have thick, tangled hair, bone-white pock-marked skin, clawed hands, and powerful jaws filled with sharp yellow teeth. Their eyes shine with a feral light, and their ears are sharply pointed. Ghul-kin exude an unpleasant odor and are rubbery and cold to the touch. They usually take great pains to disguise both their repulsive appearance and odor in order to move about in society undetected.

Combat: Ghul-kin attack with their claws and powerful jaws. They can forgo these attacks in order to make a special attack if they wish. The special attack and its results are different for each type of ghulkin (see below). They can use each of the following spell-like abilities at will: invisibility and polymorph self. Being undead, they are immune to sleep, charm, hold, and cold-based magic and are unaffected by paralyzation or poison. Soultakers can be turned as spectres, while Witherers are turned as vampires. Both suffer 2d6 points of damage from holy water. They are able to function in daylight, though they suffer a -1 to their attack rolls and saving throws when in bright sunlight.  Jann slain by ghul-kin become ghul-kin themselves.

Ghul-kin are immune to the binding and capturing powers of sha’irs. All ghul-kin have the ability to become sorcerers, sha’irs, or priests, and all can use any magic items usable by wizards or priests.

Ghul-kin take perverse delight in collecting magic items capable of doing them harm, carefully hiding them where others cannot find them. They are always searching for genie-control devices.

Habitat/Society: Ghul-kin live wherever they find it convenient to do so. They often live in cities and even engage in trade without their neighbors being aware of their true natures. They prefer to live in small family units and often form a pack with lone great ghuls. In such cases, the ghul-kin usually occupy the positions of leadership.  They disdain common ghouls, finding them far too unrefined.

Ghul-kin enjoy fine clothing, elegant furnishings, and jewelry. They appreciate art and often have their dwelling places elaborately tiled or painted. Though they usually defer to the dominant style of clothing worn wherever they reside, the materials will always be the finest available and the clothing expertly tailored. Though they have no desire for normal food, they are fond of wine and seem to enjoy highly spiced meats and stews. They love all scents and perfumes, from bath soaps to sachets, and their tastes tend toward the exotic frangipani or frankincense for its superiority in covering their own unpleasant smell.

Ecology: Ghul-kin serve genies when forced to but try to avoid contact with their more powerful cousins unless they believe they have the upper hand. The chief motivations of ghul-kin are personal power and entertainment. Being undead, they have no limit on the time they can spend perfecting a plan or setting up an elaborate base of operations. Most of them are accomplished actors and delight in playing a role they have developed for years. Sooner or later, however, the ghul becomes bored and has to reveal itself to friends and neighbors. Such revelations are often followed by a great slaughter as the ghul-kin seeks to kill anyone who has learned its secret. They revel in establishing cults and secret societies where they can control mortals and lead them astray while only marginally concealing their true natures.

Some few ghul-kin help mortals who seek them out and flatter them or offer them genie-controlling devices. Some have been known to repay a kindness a mortal paid to them while they were disguised. All ghul-kin react more positively to those mortals who are both polite and respectful.

Soultakers: Soultakers are slightly smaller than witherers, rarely reaching 10 feet in height. There is an equal chance that a soultaker will be male or female. Though they look down upon great ghuls as being lesser cousins, soultakers are themselves subservient to their witherer kin. Because they must often subjugate their own desires and plans to those of their greater brethren, soultakers are often frustrated.

For this reason, they are the more vicious of the two types of ghul-kin. They gain great satisfaction from possessing a victim and forcing that victim to obey their every whim. They feel some of the anger, terror, and despair their victims experience and enjoy knowing that it is their will which causes such misery for the poor possessed slave. Soultakers may become wizards or priests of up to 7th level (providing the god they serve accepts them).  They are immune to nonwooden weapons.

Soultakers have a special attack form which they can use in lieu of making their normal attack. In order to use it, however, the soultaker must make an attack roll at a -3 penalty. If successful, the soultaker has kissed its victim on the lips. Victims who fail a saving throw vs. spell (at a -2 penalty) are possessed by a portion of the soultaker’s essence and fall under the ghul’s control. Though the victims’ minds are still present in their own bodies, they are helpless prisoners, unable to speak or make their plight known to others. Instead, the soultaker speaks and acts for its victims, always working to the detriment of its victims’ companions, though often in cunning and subtle ways.

Once the possession has occurred, the soultaker can control its victim at any range so long as they are both on the same plane of existence. If the victim is a spellcaster, the soultaker can use whatever spells the victim had memorized at the time possession took place but cannot force its victim to relearn or pray for new spells.  Soultakers may possess and control one victim for every two points of Intelligence (rounded down). The possession may be detected by various means. First, any attempt to detect alignment on the victim will result in a reading of neutral evil. In addition, strangers react to the victim with distrust and suspicion, just as though he or she were under the effects of an evil eye. The victim may say or do evil things, and his or her behavior may undergo a radical change. He or she may even attack his or her own party without apparent cause. A sha.ir of 3rd level or above may detect that there is genie work connected with the victim; a hakima of 9th level or above may tell that the victim is possessed; a priest able to cast detect evil may learn that the victim is under the control of some evil force.

Several spells may be used to combat the effects of the possession. A protection from evil or protection from evil, 10. radius spell will keep the soultaker from exercising its control while the spell is in effect.  An anti-magic shell will negate the possession if the victim is in the area of effect when the spell is cast, and remove curse will break the possession. Dispel evil cast on the victim will break the possession and cause 3-24 (3d8) points of damage on the soultaker. The soultaker will not willingly go near a priest or mosque, nor will anyone possessed by one. It will force the victim to fight to prevent the possession from being broken and may attempt to summon its possessed victim to its lair rather than allowing him or her to be freed of its influence.

Originally appeared in Corsairs of the Great Sea (1994).


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2008)

Interesting.  Should we start with a great ghul and improve upon it?


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

Sure.   Here's the great ghul's 2e statblock for comparison...



> Ghul, Great
> CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Desert, mountains
> FREQUENCY: Rare
> ORGANIZATION: Pack
> ...




So it looks like HD is 4 higher, Int is 2 higher, it has a swim speed rather than a burrow or climb speed, and the SAs and SQs are a bit different.  Otherwise, they are fairly similar.


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2008)

Probably physical stats should be the same then, and mental stats should be bumped by a few.  Sound good to you?


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I added +2 to all mental ability scores.  Does that suffice?

I dropped slow fall, as their writeup didn't mention anything like it.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 4, 2008)

We should change the description of diminished change shape. A soultaker's still not got a perfect change shape, but it doesn't have to do with feet.

The soultaking ability... grapple + kiss = dominate? It seems more mind control and less magic jar to me.


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## freyar (Dec 5, 2008)

You mean the smell and cold skin for the diminished change shape?

Agreed to dominate for soultaking.  I was thinking the same thing.

Abilities seem fine.


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2008)

Borrowing from the vampire's domination ability...

Kiss (Su): A soultaker can kiss a grappled target with a successful grapple check. An affected opponent must succeed on a DC X Will save  or fall instantly under the soultaker's influence as though by a dominate person spell from a xth-level caster.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2008)

CL 12 works for vampires, think that's good here?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 8, 2008)

Agreed to CL 12th.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

Updated.

Here are the great ghul's skills and feats, with the additional soultaker's in bold.  Do we want to switch these up at all, or simply add to them?

Skills: Bluff +14, Concentration +11, Diplomacy +7, Disguise +12 (+14 acting), Intimidate +16, Jump +12, Move Silently +9, Spot +12, *18 more*

Feats: Improved Initiative (B), Multiattack, Persuasive, *1 more*

A soultaker stands 8 to 10 feet tall and weighs only around x pounds.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 8, 2008)

Those class skills all sound appropriate. We might want to actually put some points into Diplomacy, though. 

Quicken SLA (invisibility) for the other feat?


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

11 ranks in Diplomacy and more in Bluff and Disguise?  Quicken SLA sounds good.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Updated.

A soultaker stands 8 to 10 feet tall and weighs only around x pounds.

CR 5?  Great ghul was CR 3 at 4 less HD and lacking the dominate ability.

Anything else?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

CR 5 seems reasonable.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

200 pounds?  They're a foot taller than the great ghuls, which we set at 150 pounds.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

A few things I just realized...

Since they start at 8 feet tall, should they be Large?

We forgot one of its most interesting bits!



> SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to non-wooden weapons




DR x/wood?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

Setting these guys as large, and giving them DR 5/wood, would be interesting ways of distinguishing them further.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Updated.

Boost damage dice, Str, Dex, and natural as normal for size increases?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

I think so, yes. Remember to include the size penalty for attack rolls.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Looks great to me!


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Ready for the witherer?



> Ghul-kin, Witherer
> CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
> FREQUENCY: Rare
> ORGANIZATION: Pack
> ...




It looks like we take a soultaker, raise it by one HD, maybe boost all mental stats by +2 again, and swap out the special attack and change DR.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Sounds right.  I think the withering touch should apply to all of these, not just priests.

Want to stat up one as a cleric, too?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

We should ignore the aging, I think. Vampiric touch plus Str drain should be enough.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> We should ignore the aging, I think. Vampiric touch plus Str drain should be enough.



Agreed.  Here's a try:

Withering Touch? (Su): As a melee touch attack, a witherer ghul-kin can subject a victim to a withering effect.  This acts as a vampiric touch spell (CL 9) and additionally does 1 point of Str damage.  A victim killed by the withering touch cannot be raised or resurrected unless remove curse is first cast on their bodies.

Is that too much damage?  The original is only 1d10 hp, this is 4d6 (and I imagine increasing CL with racial HD).  Then again, there's no aging.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

We might also consider these two spells from Spell Compendium (the latter which is essentially the rod of withering)...

Wither Limb 
Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Deathbound 4, Mortal Hunter 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: Limbs of one humanoid
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

Uttering a rumbling phrase, you point at your foe and watch with delight as its limbs wither and twist, becoming useless.

You choose to wither either the arms or the legs of a humanoid. Withered legs force a subject to fall prone while at the same time reducing the subject's land speed to 5 feet. Withered arms make it impossible for the subject to use objects or cast spells with somatic components.

A withered limb can be restored to normal by a successful dispel magic from a spellcaster of a level higher than the level of the wither limb caster.

Withering Palm 
Necromancy
Level: Clr 7, Wu Jen 7
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Living creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

A black shroud of magical energy surrounds your hands. Beneath the shroud your hands look withered and aged, like uncared-for ancient leather on the verge of crumbling to dust.

Your successful melee touch attack deals 1 point of Strength damage and 1 point of Constitution damage per two caster levels to the target (maximum of 15 points each). If you score a critical hit, the subject takes ability drain instead but the effect is not doubled.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Withering Palm also seems about right, if we added that it grants temporary hp.  demiurge, what do you think?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

So, it'd do 1d10 points of damage (gained as temp hp) and 1 point of Str and Con drain a touch? I don't see a reason we need to explicityl model it on a spell--the text is clear as to how it works.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Works for me.  Updating...

Withering Touch? (Su): As a melee touch attack, a witherer ghul-kin can subject a victim to a withering effect. This does 1d10 points of damage, which the witherer ghul-kin gains (hp gained in excess of the ghul-kin's normal maximum are temporary hit points, which disappear after one hour).  In addition, the touch does 1 point of Str and 1 point of Con damage. A victim killed by the withering touch cannot be raised or resurrected unless remove curse is first cast on their bodies.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Looks good.  Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Dec 11, 2008)

Almost done!  Need to put (invisibility) with Quicken SLA on the feats line.  For the last feat, how about Negotiator?


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2008)

Sure.  Updated.

We have 21 additional skill ranks to assign.

A witherer stands 10 feet tall and weighs only x pounds. (Soultaker is 200 pounds)

CR 6?  Soultaker is CR 5.


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2008)

Hrmm, with all the synergies, I can't see where we can still squeeze in some ranks.  I'd like to put more in Disguise if possible.  Move Silently, Sense Motive, and Spot are also good places to put some.  These also seem like they should have some Knowledge skills, maybe history or royalty & nobility?

Edit: 
CR 6
250-300 lb?  That seems quite skinny.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 12, 2008)

CR 6 seems reasonable. I like giving them Knowledge skills.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

Updated.  Are we missing anything?


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2008)

Looks good!


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2008)

I think we're good.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

By request...

*Zin*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Freshwater rivers and lakes
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Bands
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: High to Genius (13-18)
TREASURE: W
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 12, Sw 12
HIT DICE: 5+1
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poison
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 30%
SIZE: M (6-12. long)
MORALE: Average (10)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 2,000

The zin are spirit snakes that dwell at the bottom of rivers and lakes. They are shapeshifting, bardic pranksters, delighting in spreading merriment, song, and mischief among the surface dwellers that travel near or across their domains.

In their true form, zin look like pale blue or green snakes. Along their backs, the scales depict a mottled blue and green mosaic pattern, unique to each individual zin. Their coloration makes them difficult to spot while swimming, but they can easily be spotted while resting on a river or lake bed.

Combat: Zin all have 60’ infravision. They can polymorph into human or demihuman form at will and are most often encountered in this form. The zin each possess the talents and spell abilities of a 5th-level bard, with either the sa’luk, rawun, or barber kits. They can learn four wizard spells (three 1st-level and one 2nd-level), typically choosing from the enchantment/charm and illusion schools (ventriloquism and Tasha’s uncontrollable hideous laughter are long-standing zin favorites). Zin equip themselves with the accoutrement typical of a traveling bard.  They delight in using magical items.

Although each individual zin possesses a bardic voice, when they play and sing together as a band, their music takes on a supernatural quality that it did not possess before. In order for this eldritch music to be effective, the zin must be within 10 feet of one another. Spells .cast. by a band are extremely difficult to resist (-1 on saves per zin present) and depend upon the number of zin in the band (per the following table).

Duo: hold person or suggestion
Trio: charm monster or emotion
Quartet: Leomund's lamentable belaborment or chaos
Quintet: mass suggestion or charm plants
Sextet: demand or Otto.s irresistible dance

The spell “repertoire” is cumulative (i.e., a quartet knows the spells of a trio and duo). A zin band can collectively cast any spell from their repertoire, once per round, at a level equal to three times the number of zin present.

In their natural form, zin can physically attack with their bite.  The victim suffers 1-6 points of damage and must save vs. poison or fall into a catatonic slumber for 24 hours. Upon awakening, the unfortunate will most likely find himself completely naked and probably (if the zin have a malicious streak) dangerously close to the lair of an unpleasant monster.

Habitat/Society: Bands of zin dwell together in air-filled caverns at the bottom of rivers and lakes. They are carnivores, subsisting mainly on a diet of fish.  

When bored, a group of zin will approach a camp of travelers passing nearby and ask for protection for the night. During their visit, the zin will stretch the limits of the PCs. hospitality with bawdy jokes and a few pranks. If the hosts retain their composure, the zin will perform a small concert in their honor, casting all of the spells in their repertoire to achieve the most humorous and entertaining results (from the point of view of the zin, that is).

Should the hosts adhere to the code of hospitality, they will have at last earned the respect of the zin, who will lavish on them a concert of merriment, song, and mirth lasting the remainder of the evening. In the morning, the zin will wish their hosts luck and long life and trouble them no further. If the hosts are offended by the zin’s antics and betray the sacred trust of hospitality (by attacking one of the zin), the band will attempt to flee into the darkness and plague the party for the remainder of their journey with a nightly concert. At the DM’s discretion, on their final nightly visit, the zin will curse their poor hosts with the evil eye (no saving throw).

Ecology: Zin only care about music, dancing, and having a good time (frequently at the expense of others). They have little concern for the world around them or its ecology, although they will quickly take offense at anything defiling the body of water in which they live.

The hide of a zin is highly prized by all rogues. Zin-hide sandals will increase a rogue.s chances of climbing walls and moving silently by 10%. Of course, openly wearing such sandals will earn a rogue the immediate enmity of most zin encountered thereafter (-10 on reaction rolls), who might decide they want a pair of sandals made from the rogue’s skin.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix (1992).


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

Well, we're going to need new spells for the quartet.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

I feel like we looked up Leomund's lamentable belaborment before.  GrayLinnorm, did you have that?

These strike me as something like bardic nagas, largely cause they're snakes, I guess.  So these could be aberrations if we go the naga route, but otherwise I'd likely say magical beast.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

I like the idea of making them "naga, zin".


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## GrayLinnorm (Dec 18, 2008)

Chaos was similar to confusion, so we could just use the latter.

Leomund's Lamentable Belaborment

Level: 5
Range 10 yds.
Components V
Casting Time 5
Duration Special
Area of Effect 10-ft. radius
Saving Throw Special

This devious spell distracts the subject creatures by drawing them into an absorbing discussion on topics of interest to them.  A chain of responses occurs during the next 11 rounds, with additional saving throws as described later.  These responses are conversation (rounds 1-3), possible confusion (rounds 4-6), and then either rage or lamentation (rounds 7-11).  All saving throws are affected by the creatures' Intelligences, as noted later.  The subject creatures must be able to understand the language in which the spellcaster speaks.

Upon casting the spell, the wizard begins discussion of some topic germane to the creature or creatures to be affected.  Those making a successful saving throw vs. spell are unaffected.  Affected creatures immediately begin to converse with the spellcaster, agreeing or disagreeing, all most politely.  As long as the spellcaster chooses, he can maintain the spell by conversing with the subject(s).  If the caster is attacked or otherwise distracted, the subject creatures do not notice.

Intelligence         Saving Throw Modifier
2 or less               spell has no effect
3-7                      -1
8-10                      0
11-14                   +1
15+                      +2

The wizard can leave at any time after the casting and the subject(s) continue on as if the caster were still present.  As long as they are not attacked, the creatures ignore all else going on around them, spending their time talking and arguing to the exclusion of other activities.  However, when the caster leaves, each subject completes only the stage of the spell that it is currently in, and then the spell is broken.

If the caster maintains the spell for more than three rounds, each affected creature can role another saving throw vs. spell.  Those failing to save wander off in confusion for d10+2 rounds, staying away from the spellcaster.  Those who make this saving throw continue to talk and roll saving throws for each round that the caster continues the spell, up through the sixth round, to avoid the confusion effect.

If the spell is maintained for more than six rounds, each subject must roll a successful saving throw vs. spell to avoid going into a rage, attacking all other subjects of the spell with intent to kill.  This rage lasts for d4+1 rounds.  Those who successfully save against the rage effect realize that they have been deceived and collapse to the ground, lamenting their foolishness, for d4 rounds unless attacked or otherwise disturbed.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

We definitely used this before.  I'll see if we can find it.

Everybody else ok with making them nagas?


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

Found it!  It was the ash mephit (back in June 2007!), which we gave the following:



			
				Ash Mephit CC entry said:
			
		

> Harangue (Sp): An ash mephit can harangue good and neutral creatures with a lengthy recitation of its woes once per day (this effect does not work on evil-aligned creatures, because they do not care about the mephit's troubles). The subjects must make a DC 13 Will save or become engrossed in conversation with the mephit and each other as if fascinated. On the 7th round, if the mephit is still speaking, each subject must make an additional DC 13 Will save or fall into a rage, attacking all the other conversationalists (except the mephit) for 4 rounds. This effect lasts for 2 rounds after the mephit stops speaking (a standard action each round) or for 10 rounds, whichever is less. This is a language-dependent, mind-affecting compulsion effect. The save DCs are Charisma based.




Should we essentially rewrite this as a spell since the zin bands have spells for all the others?

Also, anyone else think it would be better to call bands of zin "choirs" since they sing?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

I think it's "band" as in music, but choir is also a good name for their group noun.


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I think it's "band" as in music, but choir is also a good name for their group noun.



I suspect so, too, but they don't play instruments!


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

To get these things going, let's figure out ability scores.

We know Int is 13-18.

Most nagas have Wis and Cha in the 15-17 range.  These guys should definitely be high in Cha.

Most nagas have Str in the 14-16 range (with some much stronger), Dex in the 13-15 range, and Con in the 18-21 range (with some variation both higher and lower).   Note that nearly all nagas are Large, and these guys could start at Medium, so we may need to err on the low end of Str and Con.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

Let's make them Medium, so pull the Str and Con down a bit, and the Dex up.

Str 13, Dex 16, Con 17, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 20?


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



> They are shapeshifting, bardic pranksters, delighting in spreading merriment, song, and mischief among the surface dwellers that travel near or across their domains.




Bluff and Perform (song) seem definite skills.   Shapechanger subtype?



> Their coloration makes them difficult to spot while swimming, but they can easily be spotted while resting on a river or lake bed.




Racial bonus on Hide checks while swimming?



> Zin all have 60’ infravision.




Stick with darkvision 60 feet, or add low-light vision too?



> They can polymorph into human or demihuman form at will and are most often encountered in this form.




Change Shape (Su): A zin can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid.



> Zin equip themselves with the accoutrement typical of a traveling bard. They delight in using magical items.




Use Magic Device as another skill?



> In their natural form, zin can physically attack with their bite. The victim suffers 1-6 points of damage and must save vs. poison or fall into a catatonic slumber for 24 hours.




Sleep or unconsciousness.



> Bands of zin dwell together in air-filled caverns at the bottom of rivers and lakes.




This leads me to believe they are not Aquatic/amphibious.



> When bored, a group of zin will approach a camp of travelers passing nearby and ask for protection for the night. During their visit, the zin will stretch the limits of the PCs. hospitality with bawdy jokes and a few pranks. If the hosts retain their composure, the zin will perform a small concert in their honor, casting all of the spells in their repertoire to achieve the most humorous and entertaining results (from the point of view of the zin, that is).




Perform (comedy) as well?



> At the DM’s discretion, on their final nightly visit, the zin will curse their poor hosts with the evil eye (no saving throw).




Was this "evil eye" covered elsewhere?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

Dunno about evil eye. Agreed to shapechanger subtype, racial bonus to Hide when in water, UMD, Perform, Bluff as class skills. Dark naga venom causes sleep as well.


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## GrayLinnorm (Dec 23, 2008)

Evil eye is described in Al-Qadim: Arabian Adventures.  Basically, it inflicts a -2 penalty on saving throws, proficiency (skill) checks, and ability checks, and someone with evil eye can never get an encounter reaction better than indifferent ("Strangers can sense that something is wrong with the "sufferers", but rather than sympathy, they feel distrust").  Evil eye can only be cured by remove curse or quest.  There is also a spell in Al-Qadim, avert evil eye, that can give protection, but not remove existing cases.


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## freyar (Dec 24, 2008)

Shade said:


> Bluff and Perform (song) seem definite skills.   Shapechanger subtype?
> 
> Racial bonus on Hide checks while swimming?
> ...
> ...



Also agreed to all that.



> Stick with darkvision 60 feet, or add low-light vision too?



Since none of the SRD nagas have low-light vision, I'm inclined just to stick with darkvision 60.  Anyone know a naga with low-light?



> Change Shape (Su): A zin can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid.



Seems right.



> Sleep or unconsciousness.



Primary damage 1d6 hp, secondary damage sleep 1 minute?  Dark nagas are tougher and only do 2d4 minutes sleep.



> This leads me to believe they are not Aquatic/amphibious.



I agree, but we should think about water breathing.



> Was this "evil eye" covered elsewhere?




Based on what GrayLinnorm said, let's try this:
Evil Eye (Su): As a full-round action, a zin may lay a curse on a single individual within 30 ft.  If the target fails a DC X Will save, it takes a permanent -2 penalty to all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.  Diplomacy checks take a -5 penalty.  The evil eye curse may only be cured by a remove curse spell or similar magic.


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## Shade (Dec 24, 2008)

Let's swap 1d6 hp for 1 Con (as most nagas do ability score damage).

No other nagas have low-light vision, so we can drop it.

Updated.

Shall we revisit the "repertoire" now?


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## talinthalas (Dec 24, 2008)

Sounds good.  I just noticed that on the Greater Segarran Prestige Class we forgot the Class Skills.


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## freyar (Dec 24, 2008)

Wow, talinthalas, good catch!  Suggestions?



> Although each individual zin possesses a bardic voice, when they play and sing together as a band, their music takes on a supernatural quality that it did not possess before. In order for this eldritch music to be effective, the zin must be within 10 feet of one another. Spells .cast. by a band are extremely difficult to resist (-1 on saves per zin present) and depend upon the number of zin in the band (per the following table).
> 
> Duo: hold person or suggestion
> Trio: charm monster or emotion
> ...




So, chaos to confusion, charm plants to charm monster, and a new spell (maybe based on Harangue above) for lamentable belaborment?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 24, 2008)

Well, we already have charm monster. Turning charm plants into charm monster would be pointless. Dominate person, perhaps?

And we could do crushing despair instead of lamentable belaborment.


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## freyar (Dec 25, 2008)

Oops, somehow I missed that.  Dominate person would work, or I kind of like suggestion for this.

Crushing despair is a great idea!


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## Shade (Dec 26, 2008)

Sounding good.

Should we be basing these special SLAs off bardic music rather than traditional SLAs?


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## talinthalas (Dec 26, 2008)

freyar said:


> Wow, talinthalas, good catch!  Suggestions?




Well Knowledge (religion) for sure.  Swim, Spellcraft, Concentration, Diplomacy, Listen, Spot, Heal, Knowledge (history). Thoughts?


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## talinthalas (Dec 26, 2008)

Shade said:


> Sounding good.
> 
> Should we be basing these special SLAs off bardic music rather than traditional SLAs?




I like the idea of Bardic Music instead of traditional.


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## freyar (Dec 27, 2008)

talinthalas said:


> Well Knowledge (religion) for sure.  Swim, Spellcraft, Concentration, Diplomacy, Listen, Spot, Heal, Knowledge (history). Thoughts?




Looks pretty good.  Should we add Profession and Craft, like the cleric has?



talinthalas said:


> I like the idea of Bardic Music instead of traditional.




Well, hold person could be fascinate, and bardic music has suggestion, so that could take care of the duo.  Bardic music can also do mass suggestion, but the rest doesn't seem like it strictly fits bardic music.  We could look to bardic alternates and/or PrCs for hints, though.  The jester from Dragon Compendium might have some ideas.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 27, 2008)

I'd rather keep them traditional SLAs, although we could have it so a successful Perform check boosts the DC.


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## freyar (Dec 27, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I'd rather keep them traditional SLAs, although we could have it so a successful Perform check boosts the DC.



I think I like that idea better myself, too.


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## talinthalas (Dec 31, 2008)

freyar said:


> Looks pretty good.  Should we add Profession and Craft, like the cleric has?




Yea I would add Craft and Profession.


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## talinthalas (Dec 31, 2008)

freyar said:


> I think I like that idea better myself, too.




Ok then let's go with SLA's with bonuses for Perform.


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## freyar (Dec 31, 2008)

talinthalas said:


> Ok then let's go with SLA's with bonuses for Perform.



Ok, so the question is whether we want to have the Perform check result just be the DC (if higher than usual) or whether reaching certain DCs for Perform boost the spell DCs by a certain amount (say +1 at Perform DC 20, etc).

Shade, can you add those Segarran class skills?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 31, 2008)

I prefer if they make a DC X Perform check, it boosts the DC by 1. DC X + something (+5? +10?), the DC goes up again. Like we did for those dancing fey I could never spell.


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## freyar (Dec 31, 2008)

Oh, those crazy callicantzari!    Yeah.  Their Perform skill ranks are +8 with +5 from Cha.  This will probably work with one zin making the check and the others doing Aid Another actions, so add another few +2.  So, how hard should it be to get a bonus?  I'm thinking DC 20 to get +1 to spell DC, with an additional +1 for every extra +5 on the Perform check.  This way they'll usually get +1 and quite often +2.  How's that sound?  Or should we start at DC 25?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 31, 2008)

I'm thinking start at 20, but every 10 thereafter. Makes it easy to get +1, rare for +2.


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## freyar (Jan 1, 2009)

That works for me if everyone else likes it.  That way the larger groups are reasonably likely to get +2, but it's harder for the smaller choirs.  Sure.


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2009)

freyar said:


> Shade, can you add those Segarran class skills?




Done.

I fear I've lost track of the special SLA discussion...anyone care to summarize?


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2009)

Here's the original:


> Although each individual zin possesses a bardic voice, when they play and sing together as a band, their music takes on a supernatural quality that it did not possess before. In order for this eldritch music to be effective, the zin must be within 10 feet of one another. Spells .cast. by a band are extremely difficult to resist (-1 on saves per zin present) and depend upon the number of zin in the band (per the following table).
> 
> Duo: hold person or suggestion
> Trio: charm monster or emotion
> ...




We were thinking of
Duo: hold person or suggestion
Trio: charm monster or emotion
Quartet: crushing despair or confusion
Quintet: mass suggestion or dominate person
Sextet: demand or Otto's irresistible dance
(repertoire cumulative).  We were also thinking that a DC 20 Perform check grants +1 to the save DC, with an additional +1 for every 10 that the Perform check beats DC 20.


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2009)

Sounds great!


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2009)

Here's an attempt at a write-up.  I just realized that emotion doesn't exist in the SRD as a spell.  Calm emotions is a possibility, but that seems too weak for the trio.  I put in fear as a place holder, since that was one possible effect of the old emotion spell, but rage is another possibility.  Check the question marks for what you think.

Choral Casting (Sp):  A choir of 2 to 6 zin gain a number of spell-like abilities, which they can cast at will.  No two of the participating zin may be farther apart than 10 ft(?).  The spell-like abilities depend on the number of zin, and the repertoire is cumulative (a quartet can use the spell-like abilities of a duet and trio as well, for example).  The repertoires are as follows:
Duo: hold person, suggestion
Trio: charm monster, fear
Quartet: crushing despair, confusion
Quintet: mass suggestion, dominate person
Sextet: demand, irresistible dance
The save DCs of these Sp abilities are based on the highest individual Charisma among the participating zin.  In addition, one zin of the choir may make a Perform check to increase the DC (the other zin in the choir may use Aid Another actions to assist this check).  If the Perform check exceeds DC 20, the save DC of the Sp ability increases by +1.  The Sp ability save DC also increases by an additional +1 for each 10 that the Perform check exceeds DC 20 (a total of +2 at 30, etc).  The caster level is half the total HD of the zin choir (?).


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

Emotion got split into rage, good hope and crushing despair.


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2009)

Interesting, the 1e reference I have gives the options of fear, hate, hopelessness, and rage.  Must have changed in 2e.  Want to do rage?  Good hope might sound fun, but most of these SLAs aren't so positive.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

Yeah, let's go rage.


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

So...

Choral Casting (Sp): A choir of 2 to 6 zin gain a number of spell-like abilities, which they can cast at will. Each of the participating zin must be within 10 feet of another participating zin. The spell-like abilities depend on the number of zin, and the repertoire is cumulative (for example, a quartet can use the spell-like abilities of a duet and trio as well). The repertoires are as follows:

Duo: hold person, suggestion
Trio: charm monster, rage
Quartet: crushing despair, confusion
Quintet: mass suggestion, dominate person
Sextet: demand, irresistible dance

The save DCs are based on the highest individual Charisma modifier among the participating zin. In addition, one zin of the choir may make a Perform check to increase the DC (the other zin in the choir may use Aid Another actions to assist this check). If the Perform check exceeds DC 20, the save DC of the ability increases by +1. The save DC also increases by an additional +1 for each 10 that the Perform check exceeds DC 20 (a total of +2 at 30, +3 at 40, and so on). The caster level equals half the total HD of the zin choir.


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2009)

That looks good. Do the 10 ft radius for the choir and the caster level seem right?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

So CL = 5 for two zin, 7 for three, 10 for four and 12 for five? Sounds alright to me.


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

Updated.

Fill in some spells...

Bard Spells Known (3/5/2, save DC 15 + spell level): 
0—6; 
1st—4; 
2nd—3.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

0th--dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound, lullaby, mage hand, prestidigitation

1st--charm person, grease, hideous laughter, hypnotism

2nd--glitterdust, mirror image, sound burst


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Sounds good to me!


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Fantastic!  Updated.

Skills: Bluff +8, Perform (comedy) +8, Perform (song) +8, Use Magic Device +8, 8 more ranks

Feats: 2

Advancement: x

A typical zin is 6 feet long and weighs around x pounds.

Zin speak Common and x.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

4 ranks in Concentration, 4 ranks in Disguise?

Feats: Skill Focus (Concentration), Weapon Finesse

Common and Aquan? Or do nagas have their own languages?


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Common and Aquan are what a water naga speaks.  
Advancement: 6-7 HD (Medium), 8-15 HD (Large) fits the naga pattern.
120lb?


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Updated.

I shifted a few ranks from Bluff into Spellcraft, since it is a spellcaster.

Environment: Temperate and warm aquatic?

Speaking of which, Aquatic subtype?  Amphibious?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

Aquatic and amphibious sound right.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Updated.

CR 5?

How about this?



> The hide of a zin is highly prized by all rogues. Zin-hide sandals will increase a rogue.s chances of climbing walls and moving silently by 10%. Of course, openly wearing such sandals will earn a rogue the immediate enmity of most zin encountered thereafter (-10 on reaction rolls), who might decide they want a pair of sandals made from the rogue’s skin.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

The hide of a zin can be used to halve the xp cost of making boots of elvenkind or slippers of spider climbing?


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

CR 5 sounds right.

If we want to make them wondrous items, we can use the following (shamelessly ripped off boots of elvenkind, and I figure the price should be about the same):

Zin-hide Boots: These boots grant the wearer a +2 bonus to Climb and Move Silently checks.  Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, 4 square feet of zin naga-hide; Price 2,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.

Or we could just change the prereqs to a Craft (cobbling) check.

Edit: actually, I like demiurge's suggestion better!


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Updated.

Finished?


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Looks like it!


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2009)

Here's another request...

*Maskhi*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any tropical land
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Tribes
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average to High (8-14)
TREASURE: P (C)
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral
NO. APPEARING: 2-40
ARMOR CLASS: 5 or 0
MOVEMENT: 9 (as animal) or 0
HIT DICE: 4+1
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-3/1-3 or by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Surprise
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Shapeshifting
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M
MORALE: Elite (13)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 975
Lore mistress or witch doctor: 3,000

Maskhi are humanoids capable of transforming into an animal, tree, or stone. They dwell in small, xenophobic tribes in the wilderness, far from Zakharan civilization.

In their original form, maskhi appear to be lean and wiry man-sized humanoids. Their faces have elongated features, but still appear remarkably human, many with wide, cerulean or green eyes. All have blond, sun-bleached hair, tied back in long flowing manes or braids down their backs. Their tanned skin is covered with short, light hair, lending their skin a fuzzy, peachlike appearance. Maskhi have six-fingered hands and six-toed feet, their digits ending in talon-like claws. Their agility and tough skin lend them a natural AC of 5.

Each maskhi is capable of assuming a single animal form that reflects their personality. Many choose the shape of a small mammal or bird. In this shape, their AC is still 5 and they receive the form’s normal movement rate.  Their plant form is usually that of a small tropical tree (from 8-12’ tall) common to the region in which a maskhi tribe dwells. A maskhi can only assume the form of one type of tree. Maskhi are AC 0 and stationary while in their arboreal form. Finally, their stone form is roughly man-sized. Although an individual maskhi can only assume one type of rock (i.e., basalt, obsidian, quartz, marble, etc.), they can change their shape to look like a boulder, standing stone, or an outcropping of a larger rock formation, as desired. Most maskhi choose a form of stone common to the region in which they dwell. They are AC 0 and stationary in this form as well.

Maskhi communicate only in their own language, although there is a 10% chance that a member of a Maskhi tribe may know Common if they have had any interaction with the other races of Zakhara through raids or trading.

Combat: In their humanoid form, Maskhi prefer to fight with weapons, preferably the spear, short bow, and jambiya. Although some tribes may have managed to acquire steel weapons, either by trade or raiding, many (50%) use blades and arrow heads crafted out of bone, which are -1 on damage and may break (2 in 6 chance) on a natural attack roll of 1. If disarmed, they can attack with their sharp claws.  

Maskhi use their shapeshifting abilities to aid them in ambushing, hiding, and fleeing. A common tactic is to wait at an oasis in their tree or stone forms and ambush those who arrive for a drink. They can change shape quickly, so that their opponents have a penalty of +4 on surprise.

In their tree and stone forms, they are indistinguishable in smell and texture from real trees and stones. They can fool even highly intelligent adversaries, provided the maskhi were not seen while shapeshifting into their new form. Despite their similarity to natural trees and rock formations, spells and potions that affect plants and stones (e.g., potion of plant control, charm plant, transmute rock to mud, pass wall, etc.) have no effect on a transformed maskhi.  

When it is not possible to hide and transform unobserved into a tree or stone, maskhi shapeshift into their animal form, which has a greater movement rate, in order to flee. 

The leadership of a maskhi tribe with more than 20 individuals is directed by a lore mistress and a witch doctor, each with 33 hit points. The lore mistress is female, with the powers of a 5th- to 8th-level kahin priest. The witch doctor, a male, has the powers of a 6th- to 9th-level sorcerer wizard. Maskhi witch doctors typically choose sand and wind as their specialization.

Habitat/Society: Maskhi are fearful of “civilized” Zakharans. They dwell in isolation in the wilderness, living in temporary shelters made from animal skins stretched over light wooden frames.

The typical tribe consists of a loose confederation of up to 40 maskhi. Males and females have equal status, although none share any lasting commitment to each other. Even when an infant is born, only a temporary family is established until the child learns to shapeshift, after which the parents go their separate ways, looking for new mates.

Ecology: All maskhi have a reverence for the land and the environment. They hunt only out of necessity, never pleasure. Most tribes are peaceful, but if their niche is threatened or encroached upon, they will fight tenaciously to protect it.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix (1992).


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## freyar (Jan 13, 2009)

Monstrous or regular humanoid?  Definitely shapechanger subtype.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 13, 2009)

With the doppelganger as a precedent, I'd say Monstrous Humanoid... except that they're not very monstrous. I could go either way.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2009)

Yeah, I think I'd give monstrous humanoid a slight edge because...



> Humanoids have few or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities






> Monstrous humanoids are similar to humanoids, but with monstrous or animalistic features. They often have magical abilities as well.


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## freyar (Jan 13, 2009)

I think the supernatural abilities bit definitely should push these toward monstrous, then.


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## Shade (Jan 14, 2009)

Let's figure out ability scores.

Int is Average to High (8-14).

4+1 HD implies slightly above average Con.

The descriptive text notes that they are agile, and their natural AC suggests a high Dex.

Nothing seems to indicate above-average Str.

Cha might be above average for their disguise skills.

So maybe Str 10, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 13?

Compare to doppelganger:  Str 12, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 13.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 14, 2009)

I might boost Cha to 14, but otherwise, your ability scores look good.


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2009)

Let's also boost Int to 13.


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Alternate form or change shape?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 15, 2009)

Change shape? They have a number of different forms they can assume, after all, although tree shape might be a better model for some of it. Any spell that turns you into a rock?


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2009)

Closest thing I can think of is meld into stone.  So change shape is probably right.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

Here's something that might work from Unapproachable East...

Boulder Defense (Ex): A thomil can change its shape to a smooth, immobile, boulderlike form. In this form, the thomil's damage reduction increases to 15/- and its spell resistance increases by 5, but it cannot move or make attacks. Assuming this form takes a standard action, while returning to its semihumanoid form is a free action.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

Ooh. That does look like a good model.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

So maybe all we need is alternate form (for animal), and base the rest on a tree shape-like Su ability and something like boulder defense?


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2009)

Yeah, sounds good.  We can probably just change the numbers on boulder defense as necessary.  Otherwise it looks pretty much perfect.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

Yeah. That sounds reasonable.


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2009)

Something like...

Alternate Form (Su): A maskhi can assume an animal form at will. Each maskhi can assume only a single animal form of Diminutive to Small size; once chosen, it always assumes this same form.  Assuming this form takes a standard action, while returning to its monstrous humanoid form is a free action. 

Arboreal Defense (Ex): A maskhi can change its shape to that of a single small tropical tree common to the region in which its tribe dwells. In this form, it gains damage reduction 10/slashing and spell resistance x, but it cannot move or make attacks. Assuming this form takes a standard action, while returning to its monstrous humanoid form is a free action. 

Boulder Defense (Ex): A maskhi can change its shape to a rocklike form of a single type (such as basalt, obsidian, quartz, or marble). In this form, it gains damage reduction 5/- and spell resistance x, but it cannot move or make attacks. Assuming this form takes a standard action, while returning to its monstrous humanoid form is a free action.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 20, 2009)

Looks pretty good. I assume that stone form grants better SR than tree form?


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2009)

I think so.  Maybe HD+5 for arboreal form, and HD+10 for stone form?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 20, 2009)

That's exactly what I was thinking!


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2009)

Then so it shall be.  



> Maskhi use their shapeshifting abilities to aid them in ambushing, hiding, and fleeing. A common tactic is to wait at an oasis in their tree or stone forms and ambush those who arrive for a drink. They can change shape quickly, so that their opponents have a penalty of +4 on surprise.
> 
> In their tree and stone forms, they are indistinguishable in smell and texture from real trees and stones. They can fool even highly intelligent adversaries, provided the maskhi were not seen while shapeshifting into their new form.




Should we grant camouflage, like the assassin vine, while in other forms?  Or maybe a big bonus on Disguise checks?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 20, 2009)

Big bonus to Disguise checks. I'm not the world's biggest fan of camouflage.


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2009)

Yeah, fixed DCs tend to suck.  

+8 (like a mimic) or +10 (like a doppelganger)?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 20, 2009)

Like a mimic seems most plausible.


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## freyar (Jan 21, 2009)

Agreed to all the above.  Moving along...


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## Shade (Jan 22, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 21 
Split among Disguise, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survial?

Feats: 3
Improved Initiative, Stealthy, Track?  Or maybe Skill Focus (Disguise)?



> Although some tribes may have managed to acquire steel weapons, either by trade or raiding, many (50%) use blades and arrow heads crafted out of bone, which are -1 on damage and may break (2 in 6 chance) on a natural attack roll of 1. If disarmed, they can attack with their sharp claws.




Borrow from this?



			
				Frostburn said:
			
		

> Many indigenous people of the frostfell manufacture primitive weapons from bone, wood, sinew, and stone. These weapons, while crude by the standards set by forged weapons, are nonetheless quite effective in skilled hands. Although many of these primitive weapons are categorized as exotic weapons, they can be used as martial weapons by those not trained in their use as exotic weapons. If a primitive exotic weapon is used as a martial weapon, the user cannot make use of any of that weapon's special qualities (such as the iuak's ability to damage objects, or the tigerskull club's ability to disarm and trip). More importantly, primitive weapons are not as sturdy as more modern weapons. When used by someone not trained in how to properly use and care for them, primitive weapons tend to break. Every time a character using a primitive exotic weapon as a martial weapon deals damage over the weapon's normal maximum according to its damage die (such as might result from a high Strength score, using the Power Attack feat, or making a critical hit), the character must make a Reflex save (DC 10 + the damage dealt by the attack) or the weapon breaks and becomes useless. A character with the proper Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat doesn't need to worry about breakage.




Or this?



			
				Dragon #319 said:
			
		

> Most weapons in Dark Sun are made of bone or stone. Weapons made of bone have a -2 penalty on attacks and damage (with a minimum damage of 1). Bone has a hardness of 6 and 10 hit points per inch of thickness. Bone weapons weigh half as much as their listed weight in the Player's Handbook.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 22, 2009)

The Dark Sun version is easier, methinks.


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## freyar (Jan 22, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> The Dark Sun version is easier, methinks.



Agreed.


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2009)

Will do.  Are you guys OK with the feats and skills listed above?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 23, 2009)

Skills look good, prefer Stealthy to Skill Focus (disguise).


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2009)

Updated.

Organization: Solitary, pair, hunting party (x), or tribe (x–40 plus 1 lore mistress of 5th-8th level per 20 adults and 1 witch doctor of 6th-9th level per 20 adults)?

Challenge Rating: 2?

Treasure: No coinds, standard goods, standard items?

Alignment: Usually chaotic neutral?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 23, 2009)

Should we specify what lore mistresses and witch doctors are? Bards and adepts, I'm guessing, but I could be wrong.

Doppelgangers are CR 3, and these guys are just about their equal in every way. CR 3.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 23, 2009)

Should we specify what lore mistresses and witch doctors are? Bards and adepts, I'm guessing, but I could be wrong.

Doppelgangers are CR 3, and these guys are just about their equal in every way. CR 3.


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## freyar (Jan 24, 2009)

I'd be fine with all that, including the bard lore-mistresses and adept witch-doctors.  1-10 for the hunting party, 20 for the lower limit on the clan/tribe?


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## Shade (Jan 27, 2009)

> The lore mistress is female, with the powers of a 5th- to 8th-level kahin priest. The witch doctor, a male, has the powers of a 6th- to 9th-level sorcerer wizard. Maskhi witch doctors typically choose sand and wind as their specialization.






			
				Arabian Adventures said:
			
		

> (The kahin kit for clerics is a role very similar to that of druids,tailored to the AL-QADIM campaign. Players who wish to portray druidsshould consider kahins first.)




It sounds like lore mistress = druid and witch doctor = sorcerer or wizard.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 27, 2009)

Yeah, I definitely thought it was the other way around arcane/divine wise.


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## talinthalas (Jan 27, 2009)

I would go with wizards as the sorcerer in Al-Qadim is closer to the Wizard and the Elemental Mage is closer to the Sorcerer in my opinion.


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## freyar (Jan 27, 2009)

I'm amenable to that.  So just label the classes parenthetically?


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2009)

Updated.

I think all we have left to determine is how much they weigh.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 28, 2009)

They're lean and wiry--100 to 130 pounds?


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2009)

Sounds good.   Finished?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 28, 2009)

They look done from this angle.


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2009)

Yup, all done.


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## Shade (Feb 3, 2009)

*Ashira *
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Domesticated trees
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Clan
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Daylight
DIET: Sunlight
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Good
NO. APPEARING: 2-12
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 3
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Charm
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Meld with tree
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 10%
SIZE: M
MORALE: Average (8)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 270

The ashira are tree spirits that live in domesticated trees such as date and coconut palms, and banana, orange, lemon, plum, fig, and pomegranate trees. They are a joyous and lighthearted group of faerie creatures native to the lands of Zakhara, referred to as .close friends. by the humans who tend their trees. They can sometimes be heard singing and dancing when their trees are passed at night.

An ashira has unnaturally thin limbs and wild, curly black hair. By day they are fidgety, almost incapable of standing still, constantly swaying in a breeze, shifting their arms and wiggling their fingers. Their hair sometimes moves by itself, curling first one way and then another. By night they are quieter, swaying slowly, eyes listless. In the blooming and fruiting seasons their dress generally improves from rags and scraps of cloth to complicated woven garments of leaves, flowers, and vines.

Combat: Ashira abhor all forms of violence and always flee from combat unless their home trees are threatened. In defense of their orchard they can grow fierce, even bloodthirsty. Some claim that the ashira once demanded yearly blood sacrifices to nourish their bountiful trees, but their present peaceful nature seems to belie this tale.

They can cast charm person or mammal at will and frequently do so to avoid combat. In general, though, they prefer to win the trust and friendship of others without the use of magic.

Unlike dryads, ashira are not linked to a specific tree. Instead, they are connected to a whole orchard or stand of trees under the protection of a single caretaker. If the orchard is threatened, all the ashira respond. If they must flee, they can enter and exit any tree in the orchard; they are not restricted to a “home tree”. This ability functions as either a pass plant or plant door spell, cast at the 8th level of ability.

If trapped away from its orchard or if its fellows are threatened, an ashira can strike with its thorny hands and nails for 1d6 points of damage per attack. Even so, an ashira will never deliver a killing blow to a wounded or unconscious opponent, preferring to nurse him back to health and release him far away from the orchard.

Habitat/Society: Ashira are very clannish and cannot live alone without becoming morose and moody. They are almost always in contact with one another when they are met, holding hands, weaving their curls into ragged braids, dressing one another, massaging each other.s hurts, and dancing and singing close together.

All of them make decisions together, arguing and voting until they all agree (or until the majority manage to browbeat the remainder into accepting a course of action). The orchard itself is only half the domain of the ashira; they also live in a separate faerie realm within the trees. This they leave only on rare occasions, such as days of irresistible soft breezes and sunshine, when no humans are in the orchard.

Ecology: The ashira can live on the sap and fruit that their orchard provides, but more often they simply soak up sunlight during the day and convert the light to food by night, thus giving their orchard a faint, eerie glow from the magically stored sunlight. This light is so dim that it can only be seen on moonless nights, but it adds weight to the tales of orchards haunted by faerie folk.

The ashira are dependent on humans for care, protection, and usually for the propagation of the trees the creatures use for nourishment. They form close attachments to the horticulturists they meet, often plying them with song and dance at harvest time and even performing favors for them, such as watching over their children and livestock. They are friendly with winged serpents as well. They are friendly with all other creatures often found in orchards, especially the birds, hive insects, and monkeys.

They enjoy keeping pets, sometimes lodging them in the branches of their trees and caring for them as a group.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix (1992).


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2009)

You were busy while I couldn't log in!

Seems like we should start with a dryad.  Anyone know the 2e dryad HD?  In other words, are these supposed to be slightly weaker (3 vs 4 HD)?


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2009)

2e Dryad

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Secluded oak groves 
FREQUENCY: Very rare 
ORGANIZATION: Solitary 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any 
DIET: Herbivore 
INTELLIGENCE: High (13-14) 
TREASURE: M (x 100), Q (x 10) 
ALIGNMENT: Neutral 
NO. APPEARING: 1 or 1-6 
ARMOR CLASS: 9 
MOVEMENT: 12 
HIT DICE: 2 
THAC0: 19 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4 (knife) 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Charm 
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 50% 
SIZE: M (5' tall)


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 5, 2009)

So they're supposed to be slightly stronger. But they don't have much in turn of SLAs or special abilities, and abhor violence. This is going to be sort of perfunctory, isn't it?


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2009)

Seems that way.  

Should we go with 5HD, then, to make them a little tougher than dryads?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 5, 2009)

5 HD looks good to me.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> So they're supposed to be slightly stronger. But they don't have much in turn of SLAs or special abilities, and abhor violence. This is going to be sort of perfunctory, isn't it?




That is odd.



> Combat: Ashira abhor all forms of violence and always flee from combat unless their home trees are threatened. In defense of their orchard they can grow fierce, even bloodthirsty. Some claim that the ashira once demanded yearly blood sacrifices to nourish their bountiful trees, but their present peaceful nature seems to belie this tale.




I suppose we could give them some variation on ferocity or frenzy when defending their trees, just to spice them up a bit.

Dryad: Str 10, Dex 19, Con 11, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 18

Int should probably drop to 10 (they had 4 less Int than 2e dryad).  If we go with the ferocity/frenzy bit above, we could leave the scores unchanged, and give 'em a boost while enraged.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 6, 2009)

I like tree-defending frenzy.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

Are those ability scores reasonable?


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## freyar (Feb 6, 2009)

Drop Int to 10, and I'm pretty happy with them.  I like the frenzy idea, too.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.



> They can cast charm person or mammal at will and frequently do so to avoid combat. In general, though, they prefer to win the trust and friendship of others without the use of magic.




Simplify to charm monster, or give them both charm animal and charm person?



> Unlike dryads, ashira are not linked to a specific tree. Instead, they are connected to a whole orchard or stand of trees under the protection of a single caretaker. If the orchard is threatened, all the ashira respond. If they must flee, they can enter and exit any tree in the orchard; they are not restricted to a “home tree”. This ability functions as either a pass plant or plant door spell, cast at the 8th level of ability.




Orchard Dependent (similar to the dryad's tree dependent), and tree stride as an SLA?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 6, 2009)

Charm person and charm animal.


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## freyar (Feb 8, 2009)

Agreed to charm person and animal as SLAs at will, and to orchard-dependent and tree stride (but only in their orchard).


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2009)

Updated.

Shall we work on the Orchard-Defending Frenzy?

Do we want it to work like the wolverine's rage ability?


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## freyar (Feb 9, 2009)

Sounds good.  Something like this?

Orchard-defending Frenzy (Ex): An ashira that witnesses a tree in its orchard being damaged flies into a berserk rage on its next turn, attacking madly until either it or the creature that violated the orchard is dead. It gains +4 Strength, +4 Constitution, and –2 AC. The ashira cannot end its rage voluntarily.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2009)

That's doable.  Thoughts, Demiurge?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 10, 2009)

That looks alright to me. Pretty standard. We could instead of the Con bonus give them an extra attack on a full attack action...


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm fine either way.  Freyar...preference?


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## freyar (Feb 10, 2009)

I kind of like the extra attack -- makes it more a frenzy than a rage. 

Orchard-defending Frenzy (Ex): An ashira that witnesses a tree in its orchard being damaged flies into a berserk frenzy on its next turn, attacking madly until either it or the creature that violated the orchard is dead. It gains +4 Strength and –2 AC. In addition, the ashira gains an extra attack at its full base attack bonus in a full attack action.  The ashira cannot end its frenzy voluntarily.


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2009)

I like.  

Updated.

Skills: 48
Feats: Weapon Finesse, 1 more



> They can sometimes be heard singing and dancing when their trees are passed at night.




Perform (song), Perform (Dance)?



> In general, though, they prefer to win the trust and friendship of others without the use of magic.




Diplomacy?



> Even so, an ashira will never deliver a killing blow to a wounded or unconscious opponent, preferring to nurse him back to health and release him far away from the orchard.




Heal?



> Habitat/Society: Ashira are very clannish and cannot live alone without becoming morose and moody. They are almost always in contact with one another when they are met, holding hands, weaving their curls into ragged braids, dressing one another, massaging each other.s hurts, and dancing and singing close together.




More support for Perform (song), Perform (Dance)?



> All of them make decisions together, arguing and voting until they all agree (or until the majority manage to browbeat the remainder into accepting a course of action).




More Diplomacy and possibly Bluff/Intimidate?



> The ashira are dependent on humans for care, protection, and usually for the propagation of the trees the creatures use for nourishment. They form close attachments to the horticulturists they meet, often plying them with song and dance at harvest time and even performing favors for them, such as watching over their children and livestock. They are friendly with winged serpents as well. They are friendly with all other creatures often found in orchards, especially the birds, hive insects, and monkeys.




Yet more Diplomacy?



> They enjoy keeping pets, sometimes lodging them in the branches of their trees and caring for them as a group.




Handle Animal, or allow wild empathy to cover this?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 10, 2009)

Perform (singing), Perform (dance), Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (nature)... what would gardening be? Survival? A Craft skill?


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2009)

Profession (horticulturist)?


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2009)

I like the Profession suggestion.  
Maybe Negotiator for the last feat?


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2009)

Updated.

CR 3?  They have one more HD than a dryad, but their SLAs are less impressive.  Is the frenzy enough to bump 'em to CR 4?


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2009)

Probably still CR 3.


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2009)

Ready to move on?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 11, 2009)

Let's move on.


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2009)

Agreed.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

*P'oh (Lesser Spirit)*
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVE: 6"
HIT DICE: 5
% IN LAIR: 30%
TREASURE TYPE: Q
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6 or by weapon type
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Drought
SPECIAL DEFENSES: + 1 or better weapons to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: High
ALIGNMENT Chaotic evil
SIZE: S
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: V/280 + 5/hp

The p'oh is a small humanoid, standing two to three feet tall. His skin is ruddy bronze and his hair is red.  The p'oh is a wandering spirit, active during both day and night. It is greatly feared by the common folk (because of its powers) and is often given gifts and offerings to appease it. It is most commonly encountered in agricultural lands well away from populous areas.

In combat, the p'oh attacks either with a club cut from a withered and dead tree or with an iron rod. In addition to the damage done by each hit, the person struck must make a saving throw vs. spell. If the saving throw is successful, the victim suffers no further effect. If the saving throw is failed, the victim is dessicated by the drying touch of the p'oh, suffering the loss of one point of Constitution. Should the character's Constitution be lowered to 2, the character is unable to fight or stand. If the Constitution is reduced to 0, the character is dead. The p'oh can become invisible at will.

More fearsome for the common folk is the p'oh's power to create drought (as per the wu jen spell). This power is usable once per week. When used, the drought remains until the p'oh cancels it, is slain, or the spell is countered (by ice blight). It affects a 5-mile-diameter area. Typically, the p'oh arrives in an area, finding some secure lair. Once this is done, it appears to the peasants, announcing it has settled in their area and that they must venerate and appease it or else. It the peasants leave suitable offerings (which the p'oh collects while invisible), the p'oh remains in the area, not causing any mischief. However, should the offerings be insufficient, refused, or missed, the p'oh becomes angered and causes a drought to settle on the area. Thus, it is not uncommon to see small shrines dedicated to p'oh set up along country roads. On rare occasions, a p'oh is sent to an area by the Celestial Emperor to punish the inhabitants for some failing or crime. The p'oh can speak the language of its kind and the trade language.

Originally appeared in Oriental Adventures (1985).

Here's the MC: Al-Qadim Appendix version...

*P’oh*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate plains and hills
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: High (13-14)
TREASURE: Q
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 6
HIT DICE: 5
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6 or by weapon type
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Drought
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +1 or better weapons to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S (2'-3 tall)
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 1,400

This diminutive humanoid boasts impressive powers, and is greatly feared by the common folk. He is among the most arrogant and obnoxious of the lesser spirits.

The p’oh stands no more than 3 feet tall. He has ruddy bronze skin and long red hair, often tied in a ponytail with dried vines.  He has narrow eyes, either blue or green, a pug nose, and oversized ears. His thin mouth is usually twisted in a condescending grin. His stubby legs make him wobble when he walks. He wears gowns made of the finest silk, interwoven with threads of gold and silver.

The p’oh speaks the language of his own kind as well as the trade language.

Combat: A p’oh is more of a pest than a fighter, avoiding physical combat whenever possible. He will threaten, insult, and otherwise intimidate potential adversaries, attacking only as a last resort. When facing equal or inferior opponents who refuse to back down or give in to his demands, the p’oh will attack, fighting fearlessly and without mercy. When facing formidable foes who refuse to be intimidated, the p’oh usually will withdraw, rather than risk his own neck. He can become invisible at will.

If combat ensues, the p’oh attacks, wielding a club cut from a dead tree, or an iron rod instead. Occasionally, a p’oh carries a more common weapon, such as a katana or a wakizashi. In addition to the damage inflicted with each successful hit, the p’oh’s victim must make a saving throw vs. spells. If the saving throw is successful, the victim suffers no further effect. If the saving throw fails, the victim is desiccated by the drying touch of the p’oh, and loses 1 point of Constitution. If the victim’s Constitution drops to 2, the character cannot fight, stand, cast spells, or take any other actions. If his Constitution drops to 0, the victim is dead. If a desiccated victim survives his encounter with a p’oh, he recovers 1 Constitution point per day.

Common folk are most fearful of the p’oh’s ability to create drought (as the wu jen spell). The p’oh can use this power once a week, affecting an area 5 miles in diameter. The drought persists until one of the following occurs: the p’oh cancels it, the p’oh is killed, or the spell is countered by ice blight.

Habitat/Society: The p’oh is a wandering spirit, active both day and night. He is most commonly encountered in agricultural lands well away from populous areas. Once the p’oh arrives in a suitable area, he locates a secure lair, such as a cave, a high plateau, or a hollow tree in a dense forest.

After the p’oh has chosen a lair, he appears to the peasants, announcing that he has honored them with his presence by settling in their area. The p’oh then demands that the peasants make weekly offerings to him (which the p’oh will collect while invisible).  If the peasants make the requested offerings and the p’oh accepts them, the p’oh remains in the area, causing no mischief. If the offerings are insufficient, the p’oh will become angry and cause a drought to settle in the area. The drought continues until the peasants resume their offerings (or otherwise make peace with the p’oh), or until the p’oh is driven away or destroyed. Offerings that a p’oh requests usually involve large quantities of water or other potables, as well as fruits and vegetables. Sometimes a p’oh intentionally demands ridiculous offerings from the peasants he oversees, either to test their resolve or simply to harass them. Such demands might include a basket of corn containing exactly 10,001 kernels, 100 gallons of water from a distant ocean, or an unmelted snowflake. If the villagers refuse or cannot comply, the p’oh punishes them with drought.

On rare occasions, the Celestial Emperor sends a p’oh to an area to punish the inhabitants for some transgression or crime. In such instances, the p’oh forgoes his normal requests for offerings, and leaves after he has caused a drought according to the Emperor’s wishes. More often, however, the p’oh acts on his own initiative. Along country roads, peasants commonly erect small shrines in the p’oh’s honor, in an attempt to keep these pesky creatures appeased.

Ecology: The p’oh can eat virtually anything, but he has an exceptional capacity for liquid nourishment. In a single sitting, he can guzzle gallons of water, milk, or wine.


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2009)

This says CE, but the prescribed behavior seems almost LE in a way...

5 HD fey.  Seems like there was an undead with a similar dessicating power not that long ago.  Ahh, it was the scorched one, but it didn't do Con damage.  Never mind.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

Int is 13-14.  Str and Con seem average.  Wis and Cha are probably decent to High.  Unless we want to give 'em natural armor, it looks like Dex 20-21 to give the converted AC of 16 (with its +1 size modifier).


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 12, 2009)

Agreed to the lawful evil decision. These guys are water extortionists.


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2009)

So if Shade doesn't mind, let's switch them to LE.  

Ok, here's a first pass at ability scores based on Shade's comments.  Str 11, Dex 20, Con 11, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 17?


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

I agree with all that.


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2009)

Ok, then.  Next, how about this?

Dessication (Su): Any creature damaged by a p'oh's melee attack (from a natural or manufactured weapon) must make a DC X Fortitude save or take 1 point of Constitution damage.  The save DC is Charisma(?)-based.

Or we could go drain.

Want to give them that SQ that lets them use improvised weapons without penalty since they often make their own clubs?


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 13, 2009)

Well, clubs are free. Any ol piece of wood that's sturdy will serve as a club.


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Well, clubs are free. Any ol piece of wood that's sturdy will serve as a club.



Fair enough.

Did Cha-based seem right for the dessication save DC?  Or Con-based?


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## GrayLinnorm (Feb 13, 2009)

As an Oriental Adventures monster, it should have the spirit subtype.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 13, 2009)

Cha-based seems best for the dessication DC.


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

Updated.



> More fearsome for the common folk is the p'oh's power to create drought (as per the wu jen spell). This power is usable once per week. When used, the drought remains until the p'oh cancels it, is slain, or the spell is countered (by ice blight). It affects a 5-mile-diameter area.




As far as I can tell, the only "drought" spell in 3e is the dire drought epic spell in Sandstorm.

Here is the original spell...

Ice Blight (Evocation/Summoning) Reversible
Level: 7 Components: V, S, M
Range: 0 Casting Time: 1 turn
Duration: 1 day/level Saving Throw: None
Area of Effect: 1/2 mile diameter/level

This powerful spell summons fearsome freezing winds, ice, and snow in the area of effect. Once cast, gray scudding clouds gather and rain begins to drizzle down. The temperature begins to fall abruptly-40 degrees in a single day. Winds begin to blow, gently at first, but slowly gaining strength. Each day the weather conditions worsen. The clouds thicken, the rain falls heavier, the air gets colder, and the winds blow more fiercely. The temperature can drop no colder than -20 degrees. In arctic and winter conditions, the snowfall begins after 6 hours. In temperate climes, snow begins to fall by the end of the first 24-hour period. In desert lands the snow starts 36 hours after the casting of the spell, while tropical areas experience snow by the end of the second day. Thereafter, the snow continues to fall at the rate of 1 inch per hour to a maximum depth of 48 inches. The winds whip the snow into huge drifts (5 feet to 12 feet or more) and the wind chill is extreme.

During the snowfall, visibility is limited to 20" and movement rates will be 1/4the normal. Creatures exposed to the weather without adequate warm clothing, fire, and shelter suffer 1d8 points of damage each turn. Control weather spells cannot cancel the effects of the ice blight, but can be used to lessen the severity by raising the temperature, slowing the snowfall, and breaking the cloud cover.

The reverse of the spell, drought, cancels the effects of ice blight.

Drought has effects similar to ice blight, raising the temperature and drying the land instead of covering it with snow. When cast, the sky quickly clears of clouds and remains so for the duration of the spell. No rain falls for the duration of the spell. The temperature soars upward 20 degrees per day to a maximum of 120 degrees during the day and a cool 100 degrees at night. Fields become hard and cracked after four days, small streams dry up after six days, all but the deepest wells go dry after 10 days, small rivers are reduced to a trickle in 14 days and go dry after 20 days. Large rivers drop noticeably in 10 days and become little more than streams after 20 days. On the 25th day of drought, only extremely deep wells still have water, all else having evaporated or been soaked away.

Plants suffer according to their size and normal habitat. Desert plants hardly notice the drought while those of tropical jungles die and wither rapidly. Normal creatures flee the area of the drought, returning only when normal conditions have been restored and the land recovered. Creatures exposed to the full light of the sun for an entire day suffer 2d6 points of damage a day if without adequate shade and water. Characters in bulky and metallic armors suffer 1-3 points of damage a turn from the blistering heat and exhaustion. As with ice blight, the effects of the spell can be lessened by a control weather spell and a drought is automatically cancelled by the casting of an ice blight.

Casting ice blight or its reverse is an extremely difficult process for the wu jen. He is seeking to control magical energies powerful enough to affect a huge area. Upon uttering the final word of the spell, a tremendous blast of mystical energy leaps through the wu jen, ravaging his body and spirit. The wu jen instantly forgets all other spells memorized the moment this spell is cast. His Strength and stamina are broken, causing him to lose all but 1 hit point. All his ability scores are temporarily reduced to 3 and he must have immediate bed rest (the caster is at the center of the area of effect). Each day the wu jen regains 1 point to each ability score. Only when all his abilities have returned to 50% or more of normal can the wu jen begin to recover his lost hit points (although once this occurs, cure spells can be cast to speed recovery). Likewise, no spells can be memorized until all scores are returned to normal.

The material component for ice blight is a piece of ice, while drought requires a handful of desert sand.



> The p'oh can speak the language of its kind and the trade language.




Sylvan and Common?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 17, 2009)

Drought should just be control weather. A p-oh can never use control weather, however, to create precipitation?


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

Maybe limit it even further to only the hot weather or heat wave options?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 17, 2009)

Sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

Updated (and added flavor text).

Skills: 64
Intimidate, Intimidate, Intimidate!  (Should they get a racial bonus as well?)

Feats: 2
Skill Focus (Intimidate)?


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2009)

Let's give them a +6(?) racial to Intimidate and save the feat for something else maybe.

Bluff, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (nature), Tumble, 3 more?


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

Sense Motive, Move Silently (to coincide with invisibility), Appraise?  Or maybe Knowledge (the planes) for its link to the Celestial Bureaucracy?

Weapon Finesse?  Persuasive?  Or Combat Expertise and Improved Feint?


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2009)

Drop Escape Artist maybe and go with the 4 skills you suggest.  Weapon Finesse makes sense but only if you can finesse a club, which you can't.  So let's go the Imp Feint route.  We don't use that enough anyway.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

I think Escape Artist is probably a better choice than Appraise.

Updated.

Caster level for drought and invisibility?

Also, I just noticed this...



			
				Control Weather said:
			
		

> A druid casting this spell doubles the duration and affects a circle with a 3-mile radius.




I think we should note that the p'oh is treated as a druid for purposes of its control weather ability.


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2009)

You're right, given the type of bribes it likes, it shouldn't need Appraise.

CL 5 for both I think.  And let's note that it uses control weather like a druid.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 3?

Treasure: Double standard?

Advancement: 6-15 HD (Small)?

Level Adjustment: +4

A p'oh stands 2 to 3 feet tall and weighs x pounds.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 18, 2009)

Double standard and CR 3 both work for me.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

30 to 40 pounds?


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2009)

Yes, and advancement looks good.  Looks pretty much done.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 19, 2009)

Agreed.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2009)

*Sakina *
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: High (13-14)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic good
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0, -4 when invisible
MOVEMENT: Fl 48 (A)
HIT DICE: 7+7
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-18
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Invisibility, +1 or better weapons to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 50%
SIZE: M (5-6' tall)
MORALE: Champion (16)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 5,000

Sakina are friendly air sprites, faerie creatures native to Zakhara. They roam the skies looking for interesting scents and amusing adventures. They have no ties to the Elemental Plane of Air and are not considered elementals.

Sakina are creatures of the wind and normally invisible; they receive all bonuses attributed to invisible creatures, including a -4 bonus to AC. By controlling the humidity of their bodies and drawing in moisture from the surrounding air, they can become partially visible, appearing like a man-shaped patch of cloud or mist. Because of their incredible speed in the air, they have a natural AC of 0 (-4 when invisible).

They communicate with other sakina using their own language.  Many (60%) also know Midani.

Combat: Sakina are dangerous opponents. Their normal attack is a compressed wave of air that buffets the target for 3-18 points of damage. The victim of an attack must make a Dexterity check or be blown backward automatically losing initiative in the following round.

More often, however, a sakina attacks using magic. They can make up to 7 creatures, each weighing no more than 700 lbs., as light as the air for up to 7 turns (unless the victims save vs. magic); this is similar in effect to a ride the wind spell. Affected creatures will rise into the air and be blown away in the direction and speed of the prevailing winds. They can prevent movement only by grasping onto something stationary (a tree branch or cliff face, for instance). The sakina can control the victims’ altitude at will (but not speed and direction, which depends on the wind conditions), raising or lowering their victims at a movement rate of up to 120' per round. Victims drop to the ground after 7 turns (1d6 points of damage per 10. fallen). Sakina can invoke this power three times a day. They often bestow this on befriended or endangered land-dwellers, or they use the spell offensively to blow away their enemies. Sakina have been known to cast this spell on other creatures simply for the sake of amusement.

Sakina can also control winds (as per the 5th-level clerical spell), casting the spell three times a day at the 14th level of experience. This power is often used in conjunction with their ability to make others ride the wind.  They can also carry a single human-sized passenger tirelessly at full movement rate, covering up to 300 miles in a single day.

All sakina possess 50% magic resistance and can only be harmed by magical weapons.

Habitat/Society: The sky is home to all sakina. They are solitary wanderers who claim no lair and hoard no treasure.

Sakina sustain themselves by ingesting particulate nourishment in the form of smells. While a human might eat a roast pheasant, sakina can feed solely on its aroma. They can just as easily dine on the aroma of perfume and scented oils, such as the bouquet of a rose.

A ritual is known among wind elemental mages for summoning a sakina. It is not a summoning spell per se, but rather the burning of expensive incense, spices, and fragrances that the air sprites consider especially delectable (including cinnamon, cloves, rose oil, myrrh, and saffron). Once the components have been assembled and ignited in a brazier, sooner or later (usually within 2-5 days) a sakina will arrive to feast on the bouquet of aromas. The DM should assume that a day’s worth of components costs 100-400 gp.

If approached respectfully just before he has finished dining on the smells, a sakina will usually agree to help the “summoner” by providing aerial transportation to a distant location (no more than a few days’ travel). The sakina will almost never accompany a wizard or other recent friend on any prolonged journey. These chaotic creatures rarely stay attached to any plan or acquaintance for very long.

Ecology: The sakina are widely known for their helpful, if mercurial, demeanor. They are friendly to all nonevil aerial creatures, especially simurghs (q.v.) and djinn. They are the staunch allies of the buraq(q.v.) and are known to answer their summons and requests for assistance immediately.

A few magical items related to flight can be enchanted using a sakina’s whisper as a prime component. In addition, their essence can be used to concoct a potion of flying.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix (1992).


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2009)

Dining on smells is great. 

Are there any other Medium sprites to use as a reference for abilities, etc?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 19, 2009)

Sizing up sylphs would probably prove a promising start.


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2009)

Anybody have that at work?


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2009)

Here ya go:  Str 8, Dex 13, Con 8, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 17

Sizing up to Medium...

Str 12, Dex 11, Con 10, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 17


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2009)

Pixies and nixies are also Small and (oddly, given the air vs water dichotomy of sylphs vs nixies) both have more Dex and Con.  Since these have 7HD compared to 1HD for pixies and nixies, I'd feel justified in bumping to Dex 17, Con 12.  Int should be only 13, but I like the higher Wis and Cha.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2009)

That sounds good to me.


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2009)

Now that that's settled , 



> Sakina are creatures of the wind and normally invisible; they receive all bonuses attributed to invisible creatures, including a -4 bonus to AC. By controlling the humidity of their bodies and drawing in moisture from the surrounding air, they can become partially visible, appearing like a man-shaped patch of cloud or mist. Because of their incredible speed in the air, they have a natural AC of 0 (-4 when invisible).




Sounds like Natural Invisibility a la will-o-wisps.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 19, 2009)

Indeed. We may want to bump the Dex even higher for their incredible AC, because I don't see them with much in the way of natural armor.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2009)

That sounds reasonable, as they are air sprites after all.

Unearthly grace is also an option.


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2009)

How about both?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.



> Sakina are creatures of the wind and normally invisible; they receive all bonuses attributed to invisible creatures, including a -4 bonus to AC. By controlling the humidity of their bodies and drawing in moisture from the surrounding air, they can become partially visible, appearing like a man-shaped patch of cloud or mist. Because of their incredible speed in the air, they have a natural AC of 0 (-4 when invisible).




Borrow natural invisibility from the invisible stalker, greater invisibilty from the pixe, or something else?

Natural Invisibility (Su): This ability is constant, allowing a stalker to remain invisible even when attacking. This ability is inherent and not subject to the invisibility purge spell.

Greater Invisibility (Su): A pixie remains invisible even when it attacks. This ability is constant, but the pixie can suppress or resume it as a free action.



> Combat: Sakina are dangerous opponents. Their normal attack is a compressed wave of air that buffets the target for 3-18 points of damage. The victim of an attack must make a Dexterity check or be blown backward automatically losing initiative in the following round.




This can be interpreted as either a slam attack with knockback, a damaging gust of wind style ability, or maybe both.  Since the damage is rather high, I'm thinking giving them a rather weak slam attack and the damaging gust of wind might be the best course of action.


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2009)

I think this is most similar to the Natural Invisibility (Ex) of the will-o-wisp, though that's practically the same as the invisible stalker.

I agree with the weak slam plus gust of wind.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2009)

You mentioned the wisp upthread, didn't you?

I don't know what it is about them, but I'm seem to have a mental block regarding will-o-wisps.  I never use them, and can't seem to acknowledge their mere existence without assistance.


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2009)

So I did.   Ever since I read the Dragon ecology on them, I've really liked wisps.  

DR 5/cold iron?  Switching to fey standard regardless of original text (which would be DR/magic)?


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## Echohawk (Feb 21, 2009)

There are still five unconverted wisps that will need attention at some stage (Will-o'-Dawn, Will-o'-Deep, Will-o'-Mist, Will-o'-Sea and Will-o'-Shadow).


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 21, 2009)

Ooh! More wisps! Sounds fun.


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2009)

How's this?

Wind Blast (Su):  As a standard action, a sakina may release a 30-foot line of compressed air.  This attack deals 3d6 points of bludgeoning damage, and functions as a gust of wind spell (DC 16).  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 23, 2009)

Sounds good to me!


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2009)

Updated.

Let's work on this...



> More often, however, a sakina attacks using magic. They can make up to 7 creatures, each weighing no more than 700 lbs., as light as the air for up to 7 turns (unless the victims save vs. magic); this is similar in effect to a ride the wind spell. Affected creatures will rise into the air and be blown away in the direction and speed of the prevailing winds. They can prevent movement only by grasping onto something stationary (a tree branch or cliff face, for instance). The sakina can control the victims’ altitude at will (but not speed and direction, which depends on the wind conditions), raising or lowering their victims at a movement rate of up to 120' per round. Victims drop to the ground after 7 turns (1d6 points of damage per 10. fallen). Sakina can invoke this power three times a day. They often bestow this on befriended or endangered land-dwellers, or they use the spell offensively to blow away their enemies. Sakina have been known to cast this spell on other creatures simply for the sake of amusement.




Something like levitate, and treat all creatures as Tiny (so they are always "blown" away in severe or greater winds)?


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## freyar (Feb 23, 2009)

That sounds right.  

Also, back to the damaging gust of wind: we might want to give them gust of wind as an SLA or else state that they don't have to cause damage with their Wind Blast.


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2009)

Good point.  Does this revision handle it sufficiently?

Wind Blast (Su): As a standard action, a sakina may release a 30-foot line of compressed air. This functions as a gust of wind spell (DC 16).  In addition, the sakina may choose to deal 3d6 points of bludgeoning damage (no save).  The save DC is Charisma-based.

As for the other ability, how's this?

Feather Float (Su):  Three times per day, a sakina may target up to 7 creatures (none weighing more than 700 pounds) to make them light as air.  Targets must succeed on a DC X Will (?) save or begin to float weightlessly for 7 minutes.  This functions as the levitate spell, except creatures need not be willing and the sakina may control up to seven creatures or objects at once.  Floating creatures and objects are treated as Tiny for the purposes of wind conditions, so they are easily blown away by severe or greater winds.  When the duration expires, floating creatures and objects plummet to the ground, suffering falling damage as normal.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Feb 24, 2009)

Wind Blast looks good.

I'm kind of leaning toward Fort save for Feather Float.  But it looks pretty good.


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2009)

Updated.

Any other thoughts on Fort vs. Will for feather float?

Suggestions for this?



> They can also carry a single human-sized passenger tirelessly at full movement rate, covering up to 300 miles in a single day.




Skills: 70
Concentration, Diplomacy, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Tumble?

Feats: 3
Empower Spell-Like Ability (control winds), Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative (B), Track, Weapon Finesse (B)?

Oh, and since they feed on scents, shouldn't we give them scent?


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## freyar (Feb 25, 2009)

Well, Fort vs Will is not a big deal for me. 

Hmm, seems like that passenger-carrying thing needs to be a special ability, unless we want to boost their Str a bit.  Also, a 120 ft fly speed only seems to translate to 96 miles per day using the overland movement chart in the SRD.  But I think we got around this in another critter recently.  Flying messenger snakes from FR -- what were they called?

Skills and feats look good (though we could go with fewer Skills and max more out).

Scent appeals.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 25, 2009)

Does control winds have a variable numeric for Empower SLA?


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## freyar (Feb 26, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Does control winds have a variable numeric for Empower SLA?



Good catch -- I only see variables you control at casting, nothing random.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2009)

freyar said:


> Hmm, seems like that passenger-carrying thing needs to be a special ability, unless we want to boost their Str a bit.  Also, a 120 ft fly speed only seems to translate to 96 miles per day using the overland movement chart in the SRD.  But I think we got around this in another critter recently.  Flying messenger snakes from FR -- what were they called?




Messenger snakes.  

Nice catch!

Strong Flier (Ex): Messenger snakes are exceedingly strong flyers and can cover vast distances quickly. Its overland flying speeds are 12.5 miles per hour at a normal pace, and 25 miles per hour as part of a hustle. It can travel 200 miles per 8-hour day when flying at a hustle. Messenger snakes do not tire as quickly as other creatures. If a messenger snake attempts a hustle or a forced march, check for nonlethal damage once every 2 hours instead of every hour. 



demiurge1138 said:


> Does control winds have a variable numeric for Empower SLA?




Oops!  Suggested replacement?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 26, 2009)

Ability Focus (feather float)?


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2009)

Sounds good.  Updated.

Environment: Any land?

Challenge Rating: 5?

Alignment: Always chaotic good?

Advancement: 8-21 HD (Medium)?

Level Adjustment: +8?

A sakina is 5 to 6 feet tall and weighs x pounds.  (2 pounds like a Medium air elemental?)


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 26, 2009)

Let's go Usually chaotic good. CR 5 sounds appropriate. Do we want to make them extraplanar? If not, any land suits me.


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## Shade (Feb 27, 2009)

Let's keep 'em native.

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Feb 28, 2009)

I think they're ready!


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 1, 2009)

Agreed


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2009)

*Shan Sao*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical, subtropical, and temperate hills and forests
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Tribe
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: B
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral
NO. APPEARING: 3-30
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 6, Fl 15
HIT DICE: 2 to 4
THAC0: 2 HD: 19
3 HD: 17
4 HD: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Disease
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Summon tigers, immune to fear
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T (1’ tall)
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE:
2 HD: 120
3HD:175
4 HD: 270

The shan sao are a race of tiny humanoids who live in woodland hills. Fearless and private, they have little contact with the outside world.

Shan sao stand about 1 foot tall, and resemble humans with squat, plump bodies. Their skin is deep orange or dark brown.  Unruly mops of brown or blonde hair tumble about their shoulders. They have broad noses, slightly pointed ears, and oversized feline eyes, which are green, blue, or golden. Males and females alike wear long cotton smocks, which are gathered at the waist with rope. Their clothes are clean but poorly made; the smocks often hang over their feet and drag along the ground.

Shan sao speak their own tongue, the trade language, and that of the animal court, including the language of tigers.

Combat: Though small, shan sao are accomplished fighters, quick to take offense and equally quick to return it. They are apt to pursue fleeing enemies rather than permit their escape. Shan sao have no tolerance for trespassers or disturbances of any kind; loud noises especially annoy them, particularly the sound of bursting bamboo. All shan sao are immune to all types of fear.

An average shan sao force is armed as follows: short swords (60%), darts (25%), and uchi-ne (15%). Once per day, they can cause disease; to use this ability, they need merely to point at any victim within 10 feet. Three times per day, shan sao can polymorph into the shape of a bird. (Note the flying speed above.) They usually assume the forms of crows, ravens, or other common birds native to the immediate area. Once per day, they can summon 1-3 tigers within a half-mile radius, provided tigers are in this area. These tigers arrive in 1-6 turns. The animals fight for the shan sao and can understand the humanoids desires and needs. The tigers remain with the shan sao for up to a full day, although they will leave earlier if no longer needed.

A few shan sao (5%) may cast the spells of a wu jen. The shan sao’s Hit Dice equal its spellcasting level. For example, a shan sao with 3 Hit Dice has the spellcasting ability of a 3rd-level wu jen.  Typical spells in this humanoids arsenal include fiery eyes, hail of stone, magic missile, ventriloquism, ESP, fog cloud, pyrotechnics, stinking cloud, hold person, and suggestion. All shan sao are immune to all types of fear.

Habitat/Society: Shan sao dwell in the hearts of thick bamboo groves. They live in simple, thatched houses, centered around a communal cooking pot. A settlement comprises 3-30 (3d10) males, and half as many females. The number of children equals 25% of the total number of adults. Some settlements (10%) are guarded by 1-2 tigers, which share the humanoids’ lair. A shan sao force encountered away from its settlement is always male.

Responsibilities of hunting and defense fall mainly on the males, but females will fight to the death to defend their homes. Females have 1 Hit Die, but otherwise their abilities equal those of males.

One adult male serves as king, with absolute authority over his settlement. Once a year, the shan sao summon their tiger allies and discuss the king’s accomplishments during the previous twelve months. If the tigers agree that the king has performed adequately, the king will continue his leadership for another year. If the tigers feel the king’s performance has been less than satisfactory, they will nominate a new member of the tribe to take his place. Shan sao always accept the tigers’ recommendations. If the tigers nominate a new king, the old king graciously steps down.

Ecology: Shan sao can eat just about any type of fruit, vegetable, and grain, but they prefer the special stew that brews continually in their communal cooking pot. The stew includes a variety of herbs, spices, fruits, and meats. It has a distinctive aroma, combining the strong odors of onions, cherries, and cinnamon. In spite of its unusual smell, it is delicious and nourishing. One ladle of the stew will fortify a human for a full day. Wealthy gourmets with a taste for exotic foods have been known to pay as much as 1,000 ch’ien for a flask of shan sao stew.

*Shan Sao*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1-10 (x3 in lair)
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVE: 6"/15" (MC: A)
HIT DICE: 2-4
% IN LAIR: 10%
TREASURE TYPE: B
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1 -6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Disease
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Summon tigers, immune to fear
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Average
ALIGNMENT Chaotic neutral
SIZE: S
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE:
2 HD: II/36 + 2/hp
3 HD: III/65 + 3/hp
4 HD: 111/110 + 4/hp

The shan sao are a race of one-foot-tall humanoids who live in woodland hills. They are known for being an extremely fearless and private race, having little communication with the outside world. They are quick to take offense and equally quick to return it. They are quite adept at defending themselves.

The shan sao can polymorph three times per day, assuming the shape of a bird (hence the flying speed). In combat they fight with short swords, darts, and uchi-ne. Once per day they can cause disease as per the spell, except that they need not touch their victim, only point at him if he is within 10 feet. Once per day the shan sao can summon 1-3 tigers within a half mile radius (if the DM determines there are any present). These tigers arrive in 1 d6 turns. They fight for the shan sao and are able to understand his desires and needs. There is a 5% chance that any shan sao encountered has the ability to cast spells equal to a wu jen of the same level as the shan sao's hit dice. Shan sao are immune to fear.

Shan sao make their homes in the hearts of thick bamboo groves. They live in simple thatched houses, centered around a communal cooking pot. In addition to the number determined by the dice roll, there are 50% more who are females. These females have 1 HD and fight to defend their homes. There is a 10% chance the village is guarded by 1-2 tigers who lair with the shan sao.

Shan sao do not like loud noises, particularly bursting bamboo. They speak the language of their own kind, the trade language, and that of the animal court.

Originally appeared in Oriental Adventures (1985).


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2009)

I have this weird urge to make them either humanoid (halfling) or humanoid (gnome), depending on whether I favor the society text or the magical abilities.  Anyway, Small or are they small enough to be Tiny?


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2009)

I think Tiny, and could see them as related to gnomes.


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2009)

How about we call them Gnome, Shan Sao, Tiny humanoid (gnome)?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 14, 2009)

Sounds fine to me. Are they going to get racial HD?


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2009)

I'd say it looks like they should get 2HD, possibly advancing by HD as well as character class.


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2009)

I'm amenable to racial HD or just class progression.  No preference.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 14, 2009)

There's a lot of goblinoids with racial HD, so why not a gnome or two? Let's give them 2 HD.


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2009)

Sounds good!

Int is 8-10.  Wis is probably average.  Cha should be above average due to all those SLAs.  Str is probably in the 6-8 range due to their Tiny size.  Dex 18-19?  Con is probably average.


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2009)

Ummm, Str 6, Dex 19, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 16?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 15, 2009)

Those ability scores are pretty good, I think.


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2009)

> Once per day, they can cause disease; to use this ability, they need merely to point at any victim within 10 feet.



Something unique, or just give them contagion (modified to a single target in 10 ft)?



> Three times per day, shan sao can polymorph into the shape of a bird. (Note the flying speed above.) They usually assume the forms of crows, ravens, or other common birds native to the immediate area.



Change shape or alternate form to birds Tiny or smaller?



> Once per day, they can summon 1-3 tigers within a half-mile radius, provided tigers are in this area. These tigers arrive in 1-6 turns. The animals fight for the shan sao and can understand the humanoids desires and needs. The tigers remain with the shan sao for up to a full day, although they will leave earlier if no longer needed.



Borrow from outsiders?


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2009)

I'm thinking contagion, yes, and yes.


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2009)

SLA: 1/day - contagion (as a ranged touch attack with range 10 ft), caster level ?  Should we specify the disease?

Summon Tigers (Sp): Once per day, a shan sao may summon 1d3 tigers as long as the shan sao is within a warm or temperate jungle.  This is the equivalent of an X-level spell.


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Which of these gnome traits should we retain?

Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes may treat gnome hooked hammers as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons. 
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions. 
Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells cast by gnomes. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects, such as the Spell Focus feat. 
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids (including goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears). 
+4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against creatures of the giant type (such as ogres, trolls, and hill giants). 
+2 racial bonus on Listen checks. 
+2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks. 
Automatic Languages: Common, Gnome. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin, Orc. 
Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—speak with animals (burrowing mammal only, duration 1 minute). A gnome with a Charisma score of at least 10 also has the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + gnome’s Cha modifier + spell level.


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## GrayLinnorm (Apr 29, 2009)

Speak with animals should be kept but changed to tigers rather than burrowing animals.

Keep the bonus to illusion spell DCs since shan sao can be wu jen. And keep the saves versus illusion spells. Probably the alchemy bonus too.

Not sure about the attack bonus. There aren't that many kobolds in the Orient, but the bakemono are goblinoids.

They probably shouldn't get weapon familiarity (not with gnome hooked hammers anyway) and probably shouldn't get elven, giant, goblin, and orc as bonus languages (they could still get draconic and possibly dwarven).

Note about Challenge Rating: a tiger is CR 4.


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## freyar (Apr 29, 2009)

I'd agree with GrayLinnorm on what to keep.  I'd probably drop the attack bonus and dodge bonus.

Should we drop the tiger summoning to just 1 tiger and/or give it a percentage chance?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 30, 2009)

Just one tiger is fine. How about we change the ranged touch thing with the contagion into within Close range? That way, we don't need a ray to hit and a saving throw, which is nice.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2009)

Agreed.  Updated.

How's this?

Change Shape (Su): A shan sao can assume the form of any Tiny or smaller bird.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 30, 2009)

Can it still speak, cast spells, etc in bird form? The intricacies of change shape/alternate form always elude me.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2009)

Ditto here with the intricacies.  As for speaking in bird form, it isn't specified:



> Three times per day, shan sao can polymorph into the shape of a bird. (Note the flying speed above.) They usually assume the forms of crows, ravens, or other common birds native to the immediate area.




Also, I see I need to remove the flight from their speed line.


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2009)

In one of the other threads, I typed out a summary comparison of alternate form & change shape.  Anyone remember which that was?  I sadly don't think those made it into the general conversions guidelines sticky.  In this case, I think the main point to decide is if we want them to take the physical abilities of the bird form (alternate form) or keep their own (change shape).  In either case, they can use SLAs, but spellcasting is out with verbal components (unless we give them speech) or somatic (unless we specify that they can use claws for somatic).


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 30, 2009)

Well, they have SLAs, so that's fine.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2009)

freyar said:


> In one of the other threads, I typed out a summary comparison of alternate form & change shape.  Anyone remember which that was?  I sadly don't think those made it into the general conversions guidelines sticky.




Found it!

I've added it to Monster Conversion Notes.


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2009)

That's handy.   Let's stick to change shape for these, since the birds probably don't have such great physical ability scores.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2009)

Sounds good.



> Though small, shan sao are accomplished fighters, quick to take offense and equally quick to return it. They are apt to pursue fleeing enemies rather than permit their escape. Shan sao have no tolerance for trespassers or disturbances of any kind; loud noises especially annoy them, particularly the sound of bursting bamboo. All shan sao are immune to all types of fear.




Skills: 10
Based on the above, I'd say Bluff/Intimidate and Sense Motive?

Feats: 1
Weapon Finesse?

Environment: Temperate and warm hills and forests?

Organization: Solitary, pair, or tribe (3-30)?

Treasure: Standard?

Alignment: Usually chaotic neutral?


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## freyar (May 1, 2009)

That all sounds good to me.


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## demiurge1138 (May 1, 2009)

They don't qualify for Weapon Finesse. Persuasive, perhaps. Or Ability Focus (contagion).


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## Shade (May 1, 2009)

D'oh!   Good point.  Although it qualifies for it now, it wouldn't when it "earned" the feat.

Updated.



> A settlement comprises 3-30 (3d10) males, and half as many females. The number of children equals 25% of the total number of adults. Some settlements (10%) are guarded by 1-2 tigers, which share the humanoids’ lair. A shan sao force encountered away from its settlement is always male.
> 
> Responsibilities of hunting and defense fall mainly on the males, but females will fight to the death to defend their homes. Females have 1 Hit Die, but otherwise their abilities equal those of males.




It sounds like the org line needs expansion.  How does this look?

Organization:  Solitary, pair, or tribe (3-30 males plus 1-15 females plus 25% noncombatants and 1-2 tigers)

I see no need to note different stats for the females.  Perhaps mention in the flavor text that the females are less likely to pursue PC class levels?


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## freyar (May 1, 2009)

Agreed to all that.

I think they should speak Gnome.   Weigh about 10-13 lb?  CL 1 on speak with animals, like a regular gnome.  I'm going to say that the summon tiger is equivalent to a 2nd or 3rd level spell.  Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (May 1, 2009)

Summon nature's ally gets tigers at 4th.


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## Shade (May 1, 2009)

Updated.

CR 1?

LA +2?



> Shan sao can eat just about any type of fruit, vegetable, and grain, but they prefer the special stew that brews continually in their communal cooking pot. The stew includes a variety of herbs, spices, fruits, and meats. It has a distinctive aroma, combining the strong odors of onions, cherries, and cinnamon. In spite of its unusual smell, it is delicious and nourishing. One ladle of the stew will fortify a human for a full day. Wealthy gourmets with a taste for exotic foods have been known to pay as much as 1,000 ch’ien for a flask of shan sao stew.




What shall we do with that?


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## demiurge1138 (May 1, 2009)

LA +2 or +3. On one hand, humanoid HD suck. On the other hand, the ability modifiers are really good, as are the SLAs.


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## freyar (May 4, 2009)

CR 1 is probably ok, except for the wonkiness of the CR 4 tiger.  (I remember some discussion in the rules forum about a similar issue with the triton.)  We may want to think about a % chance for that.

The stew sounds like great flavor text, noting that a ladle of it is equivalent to a single portion of gruel from Murlynd's "sustaining spoon."


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## Shade (May 4, 2009)

freyar said:


> CR 1 is probably ok, except for the wonkiness of the CR 4 tiger.  (I remember some discussion in the rules forum about a similar issue with the triton.)  We may want to think about a % chance for that.




I could see either boosting them to CR 2 or something in the 50-70% chance range.



freyar said:


> The stew sounds like great flavor text, noting that a ladle of it is equivalent to a single portion of gruel from Murlynd's "sustaining spoon."




Great idea!


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## freyar (May 4, 2009)

Let's go with 50% if there are no objections.


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## demiurge1138 (May 4, 2009)

I'm fine with 50%.


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## Shade (May 4, 2009)

Updated.

Finished?


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## freyar (May 4, 2009)

Looks good to me.


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## demiurge1138 (May 4, 2009)

Mmhmm. What's next?


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## Shade (May 15, 2009)

*Stone Maidens *
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any stone (near desert)
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: High (13-14)
TREASURE: D
ALIGNMENT: Neutral good
NO. APPEARING: 1 or 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 5
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type or spell
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Suggestion
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 40%
SIZE: M(5.tall)
MORALE: Steady (12)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 5,000

Stone maidens are exquisitely beautiful damsels that dwell in rock formations, standing stones, and the walls of secluded caverns and caves.

A stone maiden is said to have a face like the moon, eyes like a gazelle, and lips like rose petals. She looks like a beautiful human or elven female, wearing simple, loose fitting robes and veils. She favors garments that reflect the kind of stone she inhabits. A stone maiden dwelling in a sandstone might wear dusty red, while one living in a basalt cave would favor black.

Combat: Like a gazelle, stone maidens are shy, peaceful, and quick to flee. If angered or provoked, however, they become dangerous opponents. They can fight with any weapon provided, but almost always prefer to use magic. Stone maidens can cast the following spells at 14th level of ability, once per round, three times/day: animate rock, meld into stone, spike stones, stone shape, stone tell, and suggestion.

If confronted with hostile adversaries, a stone maiden’s first action will be to use her powerful suggestion (-3 on saves) and attempt to convince the adversaries to leave. Failing that, she will escape by casting an improved version of meld into stone, which allows her to step into any rock formation and remain there indefinitely. Using this improved version of the spell, she can use her other magical abilities as desired while safely enclosed in the protective rock.

A stone maiden’s most powerful attack is her ability to animate rock, which causes a man-sized stone to move at up to 60 feet per round and attack her adversaries (AC 1, HD 11, hp 28-84 (28d3), THAC0 15, Dmg 14-28 (14d2). If a man-sized stone is not available for animating, she can create one using stone shape. She will only use this attack if seriously threatened (by a group with mining tools, for instance).

Finally, a stone maiden will use her stone tell ability to gather information about potential visitors to her lair, casting spike stones to hinder their approach should they be manifestly evil creatures.

Because of their powerful bond with the Elemental Plane of Earth, stone maidens are not harmed by earth-affecting magic.

Habitat/Society: Stone maidens have a mystic bond with the particular rock formation or standing stone of which they are (literally) a part. They will never stray more than a quarter mile from this stone; if forcibly removed they lose 1 hit point per turn until they perish.

Over the years, stone maidens may acquire treasure, either as booty from evil creatures driven from the proximity of their lairs or as suggested gifts from rude or pushy desert nomads, some of whom consider it a great accomplishment to have a former stone maiden to add to their collection of wives. Many stone maidens have lairs near gold or gem deposits and use their magical talents to gather and shape treasure into pleasing shapes and sizes. They will keep their cache hidden inside a stone near their lair, enclosing the treasure in solid rock using their stone-shaping ability.

According to some legends, stone maidens are the ancestors of a desert priestess who was stolen from her tribe and imprisoned in stone by an evil dao. The stone maidens are thus thought to be searching for a way to remove their curse and return to their former nomadic existence. But, while some stone maidens appear melancholy (supporting the desert nomads’ legends), there are just as many who are content, assertive, and self reliant, manifesting no apparent need to be “rescued” from any curse.

The task of freeing a stone maiden is described in legends as a monumental undertaking, usually involving the recovery of one of the maiden’s personal possessions (a veil, for instance) from a powerful dao or genie. Should the token be returned, the stone maiden’s link with the Elemental Plane of Earth would be broken, and she would lose all spell-like abilities forever, becoming a normal woman.

Ecology: Stone maidens sometimes act as protectors for the lands and desert in a quarter-mile radius of their lair. More often than not, however, these withdrawn creatures play little or no part in Zakhara’s ecology.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix (1992).


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## freyar (May 15, 2009)

Huh.   I was all set to go with fey, but then there's the bit about them being part of the stone system and the whole link with genies.  I can't decide: fey or elemental?


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## demiurge1138 (May 15, 2009)

Personally, I'd vote for fey, with the earth subtype and ties to powerful genie magic. However... the stone maiden appears in the Tome of Horrors 3, apparently as an "accidental conversion", or as a semi-conversion like with the demilich. Same name, same SLAs, same animate rocks, and if its veil is stolen from it, it crumbles and dies (instead of turning into a human). I'm not sure if we should do our version.

Thiers is an elemental, BTW.


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## freyar (May 15, 2009)

Huh.  I didn't realize that ToH2 & 3 had conversions in them.  Other than possibly not reducing the unconverted critters list, I don't know if that's a reason not to do a fey version, though.


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## Shade (May 15, 2009)

I'm on board for a fey version.


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## Shade (May 20, 2009)

Also, about 80% of the Al-Qadim creatures mention the elemental planes, methinks.


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## freyar (May 21, 2009)

It does seem like a very elemental-themed setting (sha'irs, anyone?).  For the conversion, I guess we should think of these like rock-dryads.  They have 1 more HD, so they're probably comparable in terms of ability scores.  Perhaps a little more Con and less Dex due to the rockiness?  So maybe Str 10, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 18?


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## Shade (May 26, 2009)

Sounds good.  Added to Homebrews.



> If confronted with hostile adversaries, a stone maiden’s first action will be to use her powerful suggestion (-3 on saves) and attempt to convince the adversaries to leave.




Ability Focus and/or racial bonus?



> Failing that, she will escape by casting an improved version of meld into stone, which allows her to step into any rock formation and remain there indefinitely. Using this improved version of the spell, she can use her other magical abilities as desired while safely enclosed in the protective rock.




Unique SLA?



> A stone maiden’s most powerful attack is her ability to animate rock, which causes a man-sized stone to move at up to 60 feet per round and attack her adversaries (AC 1, HD 11, hp 28-84 (28d3), THAC0 15, Dmg 14-28 (14d2). If a man-sized stone is not available for animating, she can create one using stone shape. She will only use this attack if seriously threatened (by a group with mining tools, for instance).




Sub in a Large earth elemental for simplicity?



> Because of their powerful bond with the Elemental Plane of Earth, stone maidens are not harmed by earth-affecting magic.




Borrow this?

Immunity to Earth (Ex): An erdeen is immune to the detrimental effects of spells with the earth descriptor.


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## demiurge1138 (May 26, 2009)

Large earth elemental works for the animated stone.


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## freyar (May 26, 2009)

Probably ability focus (suggestion).

Sure, let's swap out meld-into-stone for a unique SLA.

Agreed on elemental.

I like Immunity to Earth.  

Rock dependent looks good.


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## Shade (May 26, 2009)

How do these look?

Animate Rock (Sp):  Three times per day, a stone maiden can animate a a large stone to attack her enemies.  Treat this animated stone as a Large earth elemental.   The rock remains animated for x rounds or until destroyed.

Greater Stone Meld (Sp):  Three times per day, a stone maiden can step into any rock formation and remain there indefinitely.  This functions as meld into stone, except she may see out of the stone and use her special abilities to affect other creatures and objects.


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## demiurge1138 (May 27, 2009)

We should explain how to treat her whilst in the stone, and how to force her out. Improved cover, perhaps? Forced out with a move earth?

How about 10 rounds for the animated stone?


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## freyar (May 27, 2009)

Improved cover is good.  Move earth makes sense, but she's immune to spells with the earth descriptor.  I guess we could justify it by saying that the spell moves the rock around her.  I'd be inclined to go with greater dispel (same spell level).  Or stone to flesh (we should really specify how this affects stone maidens, anyway).

10 rounds is good!


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## demiurge1138 (May 28, 2009)

Stone to flesh turns them into a human woman if they fail the save? Or should we reserve that for the quest with the veil mentioned earlier?


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## freyar (May 28, 2009)

Kind of seems like it should be a quest or something more powerful (wish, miracle?) to turn them human.  But it probably should do some significant damage of some type (and possibly throw them out of the stone).  Shade, thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (May 28, 2009)

Flesh to stone could remove DR and natural armor for 1 round/level, like a stone golem.


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## Shade (May 28, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Flesh to stone could remove DR and natural armor for 1 round/level, like a stone golem.




I like!

Revising...

Animate Rock (Sp): Three times per day, a stone maiden can animate a a large stone to attack her enemies. Treat this animated stone as a Large earth elemental. The rock remains animated for 10 rounds or until destroyed.

Greater Stone Meld (Sp): Three times per day, a stone maiden can step into any rock formation and remain there indefinitely. This functions as meld into stone, except she may see out of the stone and use her special abilities to affect other creatures and objects.  While in the stone, the maiden has improved cover.   Although the stone maiden is immune to spells with the earth descriptor, a move earth spell can force her out by affecting the surrounding stone, as can a greater dispel magic (treat stone maiden's caster level as 14).

Vulnerability to Stone-Affecting Magic (Ex):  A stone to flesh spell does not actually change the stone maiden's structure but negates her damage reduction and natural armor for 1 full round.


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## demiurge1138 (May 28, 2009)

All looks good to me!


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## Shade (May 28, 2009)

Updated.

AC 8 (which converts to AC 12) seems awfully poor for a stony being, and Dex modifier alone provides this much.  Suggested natural armor?

Suggested weaponry for attack lines?   Dryads use dagger and bows.  If we stick with the Zakharan flavor, perhaps scimitar and shortbow?

Skills: 80
Appraise, Concentration, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot seem like no-brainers.  What else?

Feats: Ability Focus (suggestion), 1 more


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## demiurge1138 (May 28, 2009)

I think we should either lower her caster level, or increase her HD. 5 HD and CL 14 do not work well together.


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## Shade (May 29, 2009)

The pixie and grig both have caster levels 8 higher than their HD.  If we follow that trend, the stone maiden would be CL 13.

Or if we want to more closely emulate the dryad, we can go with a caster level 2 higher than HD.


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## freyar (May 29, 2009)

I think CL 7 is ok.  A party with access to move earth or greater dispel shouldn't have to struggle too much to get her out of the rock, and that CL is enough for her SLAs, too, I think.

De-advancing a stone giant would give +9 natural armor, but maybe that's too high.  +7 like a thoqqua?  Anyone have access to galeb duhr or some similar earthy critter?  (Xorn have really high natural armor, just as an aside!)


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2009)

Galeb duhr is +15, gulgar is +8, oread (another stone-affinity fey) is +9.


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2009)

For her HD, probably +7 natural is fine.

Scimitar and shortbow sound right.

Also on skills: Diplomacy, Sense Motive.  2 out of Bluff, Tumble, Use Magic Device.

Probably Weapon Finesse or else something to boost some skills.


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2009)

Updated.

I had miscounted the skills, so Diplomacy and Sense Motive should suffice.

Weapon Finesse can't be used with a scimitar, can it?

Environment: Warm deserts?

Organization: Solitary or formation (2–4)?

Treasure: Standard (like dryad)?


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2009)

You're right about Weapon Finesse, I'm just not thinking.  How about either Negotiator or Stealthy?

I like the rest.


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## Melatuis (Jun 2, 2009)

what is a "light" weapon?  the rapier is 3 #, whip is 2#, spicked chain is 15#.


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2009)

Yeah, "light weapon" is a bit of a misnomer in this case, isn't it?  

Technically...

"A light weapon is easier to use in one’s off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and it can be used while grappling. A light weapon is used in one hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus (if any) to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or one-half the wielder’s Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder’s primary hand only. An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon."

Updated.

CR 4?

Stone maidens speak Sylvan and Terran?


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2009)

CR 4 is fine.  Sylvan seems a little weird, though.  How about Common and Terran.  Or we could go for one of the al-Qadim languages (is it Midani that's the main one?).


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 3, 2009)

Common, Terran and either Gnome or Dwarf (since they both have earthish affinities)?


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## freyar (Jun 3, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Common, Terran and either Gnome or Dwarf (since they both have earthish affinities)?



That would work for me, too.


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## Shade (Jun 3, 2009)

Sure!  How about we go with Common, Terran, and Gnome, and add a "In Zakhara" sidebar at the bottom noting that they speak Midani in that region.


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## freyar (Jun 4, 2009)

Sounds great to me.  

I think the spike stones DC should be 16 (there's ability focus on the suggesting).  

Now that I look at it, I think I like CR 5 or 6.  The large earth elemental is already CR 5 (though you could argue that getting her to summon one is already screwing up the encounter).  

Put the quest for the veil bit into flavor?


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2009)

Updated.

What's left?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 4, 2009)

I'm pretty sure we're done.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

Looks good from here.


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2009)

*Ochimo (Spirit Warriors)*
Frequency: Total of 4
No. Appearing: 1
Armor Class: 1
Move: 12"/24"
Hit Dice: 10
% In Lair: 0%
Treasure Type: None
No. of Attacks: 2
Damage/Attack: 1d10/1d10
Special Attacks: See below
Special Defenses: See below
Magic Resistance: 10% + special
Intelligence: Very
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Size: M
Psionic Ability: None
Level/XP Value: 4,200 + 14/hp

The Ochimo are the quasi-spirit creations of the Opawang, the Dead Spirit King, and act as his messengers, servants, and warriors. Each appears identical to his brethren-a masked samurai warrior in full regalia.

Each Ochimo has the power of spirit capture. It may suck the life force of a spirit or physical entity into its body. The spirit is saved for later use by the Opawang (who prolongs his life by consuming these spirits). The range of this form of gaze attack is 3" . Any character who meets the gaze of an Ochimo must roll a successful saving throw vs. death magic or have his spirit sucked into the Ochimo.

The visible effects of spirit capture depend upon the type of Ochimo encountered:

The Earth Ochimo seems to convert its target into fine sand, which is then drained into the Ochimo's eyes.

The Water Ochimo converts its target into a human-shaped vessel of water, which is then sucked through the eyeholes of the mask.

The Air Ochimo blows a blast of air from the mouth of its mask. This reduces the target to fine dust, which it inhales.

The Fire Ochimo fires beams of flame from the eyehole of its mask, converting the target to a fine ash that is blown away. In all cases, the Ochimo has captured the spirit of the target. The Ochimo retains the spirit until it returns to Opawangchicheng, where it turns the spirit over to the Opawang. If the Ochimo is slain, all captive spirits are returned to their original forms unharmed.

An Ochimo may hold no more than 10 Hit Dice of spirits (for ninja and multiclassed individuals, use an average of the two levels). It may not absorb more than this without returning to its master. (An Ochimo that has absorbed 5 HD of creatures may not absorb the spirit of a 6th-level character without first dispensing of the levels within it. It may, however, absorb the spirit of a 5th-level character.) The following table lists the chance to meet an Ochimo's gaze in certain situations. The chance in other cases must be decided by the DM using this list as a guideline.

Situation Meet | Gaze?
Psychic Duel | Automatic
Completely Surprised | Automatic
Surprised by Ochimo | 8 in 10
Viewing Ochimo | 6 in 10
Attacking Normally | 4 in 10
Avoiding Gaze | 2 in 10
Attacking from Behind | 1 in 10

The Ochimo have been ensorcelled by the Opawang to attack until they have captured at least 8 HD of spirits. Until that time the Ochimo fight without fear. While the Ochimo prefer to capture spirits, they slay those they cannot capture.

The four Ochimo are identical in appearance, save for the magical items they carry and a colored disk on each mask's forehead. The color of the disk identifies the elemental type of the Ochimo. The Earth Ochimo has a red disc, the Fire Ochimo yellow, the Water Ochimo green, and the Air Ochimo blue. The elemental type of Ochimo affects its vulnerabilities and the visible effects of its spirit capture. Each Ochimo makes saving throws against elemental attacks with a +2 bonus to the die, except for attacks of its type. Attacks by a similar elemental force are saved at a -2 penalty, and the Ochimo suffers +2 to each die of damage. An Ochimo is affected by elemental turning against its type, but not by spells that affect spirits. An elemental burst heals 1d10 points of damage to an Ochimo.

The tie between the Ochimo and the Opawang is very strong. The first 15 points of damage each day to an Ochimo inflicts no damage (weapons and magical damage have no visible effects). This damage is passed on to the Opawang, who heals at sunrise. (If all four Ochimo suffer damage in a single day, the Opawang takes 60 points of damage, which is healed at the next sunrise). If an Ochimo is slain, any spirits captured by the Ochimo and not yet presented to the Opawang are restored to their original state. The armor of the ghostly samurai falls to the ground with its weapons. The spirit of the Ochimo can be seen briefly as a black tiger-shaped form as it flees this plane.

The Earth Ochimo possesses the ebon hunt, a set of six magical figurines that, once cast on the ground, become a jet-black stallion (medium war horse) and five black leopards, all of maximum hit dice, and capable of moving 18" per round. If slain, the figures become broken and nonmagical. If the bearer is slain, the creatures return to their original magical state. The ebon hunt maybe cast once per night. The Fire Ochimo wears a ring of spells, a form of the ring of spell storing. This ring will only hold seven levels of spells at any one time. It is currently filled with one magic missile spell placed there by the Opawang (nine missiles for 1d4+1 points of damage each) and a wither spell.

The Water Ochimo wears a talisman of the restless dead. This device looks like a small birds-foot charm on a leather thong. It forces spirits to animate the bones of any long-dead humans and humanoids that are available (these are similar to western skeletons, and may be turned, though they are also affected by spells that deal with spirits). Up to 20 such skeletons may be animated in a single day.

The Air Ochimo wields the blades of excellent damage. These blades are a katana and wakizashi that are +2 to hit, are unbreakable, and always inflict maximum damage. These blades were used by the Black Leopard Priest's best warrior in the battle against the Shou Lung, but their origin predates that time. They radiate a strong sense of evil, and those of good alignment feel a need to destroy the blades and their wielder.

These items are found among the armor of the Ochimo if these creatures are slain. The armor of an Ochimo is always of armor of quality. Their katana and wakizashi are always unbreakable. These weapons are also nonaligned, save for those carried by the Air Ochimo.

Originally appeared in OA3 - Ochimo the Spirit Warrior (1987)


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2009)

Interesting.  4 unique creatures, mostly gaze attack (borrow from devourer or something?) and special items.

I guess we do the Opawang next?


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2009)

Native Outsiders?

I'll have to ask Echohawk if Opawang has stats.


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2009)

Native outsider seems right.  Isn't there also a spirit subtype or something like that?


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## Leopold (Jul 9, 2009)

Yes there is and it's from the Forgotten Realms:
Spirit Subtype*

Spirit creatures include some fey and elementals (nature spirits), outsiders (celestial spirits), undead (ghosts and ancestors), and even dragons. Spirit creatures are nor necessarily incorporeal, despite their name - in the worlds of Oriental Adventures, some spirits are as much flesh and bone as humans are. The only game effect of the spirit type modifier is that spirit creatures are all affected by spells such as commune with greater spirit, invisibility to spirits, and protection from spirits.


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2009)

This might be appropriate here.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2009)

Sure, we can put it in the "underbar" as we usually do with OA creatures of the Spirit World.


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2009)

Let's figure out ability scores:

Int is Very (11-12).

Some other 10 HD outsiders..

Osyluth: Str 21, Dex 21, Con 21, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14
Vrock:  Str 23, Dex 15, Con 25, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 16
Monadic Deva: Str 20, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 19

How about...

Str 21, Dex 17, Con 23, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 14?

We could mix up the physical scores a bit based on type, similar to elementals (Air and Fire ochimo might be more dextrous, for example).


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2009)

Abilities look good.  And mixing them up sounds reasonable, too.


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2009)

Added Earth ochimo to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jul 17, 2009)

Spirit capture or special item first?


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## Shade (Jul 17, 2009)

Spirit capture, methinks, since it will be more standardized across the different ochimos.


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## Shade (Jul 17, 2009)

Oops.  Replied to wrong thread.


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## freyar (Jul 20, 2009)

Borrowing from the devourer (oddly, the SRD devourer doesn't list which kind of save!):

Spirit Capture (Su): An ochimo may make a spirit capture attack as a standard action by making a ranged touch attack as a standard action (range X, no range increment).  If the attack hits, the victim takes no damage but must make a DC X Fortitude (?) save or be spirit captured.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

A captured victim is instantly transformed into its incorporeal essence, which is absorbed by the ochimo.  An ochimo may hold up to 10HD? of spirits; its spirit capture attack automatically fails against creatures that would exceed that limit.  The Opawang may remove spirits from an ochimo.  Otherwise, the captured spirit cannot be raised or resurrected, but a limited wish, miracle, or wish spell frees it, as does destroying the ochimo.

The original is a short range gaze attack.  You want to go with that instead?


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## Shade (Jul 20, 2009)

Lookin' good.  I think the gaze attack seems a better fit.


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## freyar (Jul 20, 2009)

Spirit Capture Gaze (Su):  Spirit captured, 5 ft?, Fortitude? save DC X negates.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

A captured spirit is instantly transformed into its incorporeal essence, which is absorbed by the ochimo. An ochimo may hold up to 10HD? of spirits; its spirit capture attack automatically fails against creatures that would exceed that limit. The Opawang may remove spirits from an ochimo. Otherwise, the captured spirit cannot be raised or resurrected, but a limited wish, miracle, or wish spell frees it, as does destroying the ochimo.

Note the question marks!  I made the gaze short-range, since, unless the OCR was wrong, the original was only 3 ft range.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

I'll bet it was supposed to be 3", which of course equaled 30 feet.

Regardless, let's bump it to 30 feet.  Sound OK?


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2009)

Bumping range sounds ok.

What do you think about the HD limit and Fort vs Will save?

Do you think we should add break enchantment vs DC 25 or so to free a captured spirit given that the CR is likely only 8 or 9?


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

I'm leaning toward Fort, and break enchantment is a good suggestion.


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2009)

So:

Spirit Capture Gaze (Su): Spirit captured, 30 ft, Fortitude save DC X negates. The save DC is Charisma-based.

A captured spirit is instantly transformed into its incorporeal essence, which is absorbed by the ochimo. An ochimo may hold up to 10HD of spirits; its spirit capture attack automatically fails against creatures that would exceed that limit. The Opawang may remove spirits from an ochimo. Otherwise, the captured spirit cannot be raised or resurrected, but a break enchantment cast on the ochimo (and which penetrates the ochimo's SR), limited wish, miracle, or wish spell frees it, as does destroying the ochimo.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

Updated.



> Each Ochimo makes saving throws against elemental attacks with a +2 bonus to the die, except for attacks of its type. Attacks by a similar elemental force are saved at a -2 penalty, and the Ochimo suffers +2 to each die of damage. An Ochimo is affected by elemental turning against its type, but not by spells that affect spirits. An elemental burst heals 1d10 points of damage to an Ochimo.




Giving it the appropriate elemental subtype should handle the turning.

How's this?

Earth Bond (Ex):  An earth ochimo has a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells with the Air, Fire, or Water descriptor, but suffers a -2 racial penalty against spells with the Earth descriptor.   Additionally, an earth ochimo has vulnerability (+50% damage) to damage-dealing spells with the Earth descriptor.

I'm not sure what to do with the "elemental burst" healing.


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2009)

We might note that it is unaffected by any kind of turning that normally affects outsiders (since the spirit subtype included elementals and outsiders).

Given how the "Elemental Bond" ability is going to work against the subtyping when we get to Fire at least, I'm not sure if these should really have the appropriate elemental subtypes.  Our friend the earth ochimo doesn't have a burrow speed, for instance, which is about the only mechanical characteristic of the subtype.

Maybe we should try to look up if there was an elemental burst spell?


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

There is such a spell, and it made it to 3.5.

*Elemental Burst *(_Complete Arcane_)
Evocation
Level: Wu Jen (all)
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area: 10-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half or Reflex negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

When you cast this spell, you designate a target composed of one of the five wu jen elements--earth, fire, metal, water, and wood. The target then releases magical energy in a sudden, explosive burst, as follows:

Wood, Metal, or Earth: The target throws off sharp slivers and fragments; creatures within the burst take 1d8 points of damage (Reflex save for half damage).

Fire: The target shoots out glowing sparks that deal 1d8 points of fire damage to creatures within the burst (Reflex save for half damage).

Water: Water pushes out in a fierce wave, knocking creatures within the area prone unless they make successful Reflex saves. Creatures get a +4 bonus on their saving throws for each size category they are larger than Medium, or a -4 penalty for each size category smaller than Medium. Exceptionally stable creatures, such as dwarves or creatures with four legs, get an additional +4 bonus.

The spell does not noticeably affect the structure or form of the target object.


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2009)

Non-core and not particularly a common mechanic for other spells.  I'm for ignoring the bit about it, as long as you agree.


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2009)

Agreed to dropping this, as well as the elemental subtypes.

Updated.

Ready for this?



> The Earth Ochimo possesses the ebon hunt, a set of six magical figurines that, once cast on the ground, become a jet-black stallion (medium war horse) and five black leopards, all of maximum hit dice, and capable of moving 18" per round. If slain, the figures become broken and nonmagical. If the bearer is slain, the creatures return to their original magical state. The ebon hunt maybe cast once per night. The Fire Ochimo wears a ring of spells, a form of the ring of spell storing. This ring will only hold seven levels of spells at any one time. It is currently filled with one magic missile spell placed there by the Opawang (nine missiles for 1d4+1 points of damage each) and a wither spell.


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2009)

Just before we get to that, I'm not quite happy with Earth Bond.  It should be immune to effects that normally turn or destroy outsiders, being affected by effects that turn or destroy earth creatures instead.  I think that's closer to the original.


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## Shade (Jul 23, 2009)

Fair enough.  Updated.


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2009)

Looks good!

Should we make the ebon hunt standard figurines of wondrous power (well, for the appropriate animals, not just the SRD figurines) or go for something more unique?


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## Shade (Jul 23, 2009)

I think standard figurines of wondrous power should suffice.


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2009)

So a light warhorse and 4 leopards?


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## Shade (Jul 24, 2009)

That sounds right.  We'll need to give earth ochimo ranks in Ride.


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## freyar (Jul 24, 2009)

Good point.  Shall we move to skills and feats now, or should we deal with this?



> The tie between the Ochimo and the Opawang is very strong. The first 15 points of damage each day to an Ochimo inflicts no damage (weapons and magical damage have no visible effects). This damage is passed on to the Opawang, who heals at sunrise. (If all four Ochimo suffer damage in a single day, the Opawang takes 60 points of damage, which is healed at the next sunrise).




Opawang Bond (Su): The first 15 hp of damage that an ochimo suffers each day are instantly transferred to the Opawang and have no effect on the Ochimo.

The name could use some work.   Otherwise, is that ok?


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2009)

Echohawk has posted the Opawang's stats here.


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## freyar (Jul 28, 2009)

That should give us some inspiration.  Interesting, he was one of the corrupt priest of the Black Leopard we converted before!

What do you think about the "Opawang Bond" above?


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2009)

That outta work.  She we say it works like shield other in all other respects, or is that unnecessary?


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2009)

I only think we should reference shield other if we want the +1 deflection and save bonuses.


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2009)

Nah, I don't think the deflection and shield bonuses are appropriate here.

Updated.



> Each appears identical to his brethren-a masked samurai warrior in full regalia.




Banded armor?

Suggested natural armor bonus?



> If an Ochimo is slain, any spirits captured by the Ochimo and not yet presented to the Opawang are restored to their original state. The armor of the ghostly samurai falls to the ground with its weapons. The spirit of the Ochimo can be seen briefly as a black tiger-shaped form as it flees this plane.




Flavor text only?


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2009)

Banded mail sounds appropriate.  Natural armor varying with type?  Maybe +5 for earth?

Well, I think the first bit about the captured spirit is in the gaze attack description (actually, should we specify that the victim is restored to life if released?), but the rest should be flavor, yeah.


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## Shade (Jul 31, 2009)

Updated.

I think we should specify that the victim is restored to life if released.


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## freyar (Jul 31, 2009)

"A freed spirit is instantly returned to life in the precise condition it had when captured."


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2009)

Updated.

Fly 60 ft. (good?)

Spell resistance x?  10% translates to CR+3

Skills: 9 at 13 ranks (includes -5 armor check penalty)

Feats: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, 2 more

Environment: Any?

Organization: Solitary or x (2-4)

Treasure: gear only?

Advancement: —?


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2009)

Flight (good) is ok.

CR +3

Diplomacy, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot  ?  Dunno, they seem like they might be sent on diplomatic type missions, hence the Cha skills.  They also seem sneaky despite the armor, somehow.    Do you have any better ideas?

Ride-by Attack, either Two-weapon Defense or Ability Focus (spirit capture gaze) depending on how tough we want that to be for the CR.

The rest is good.  For 2-4 in organization, do you mean the different types of Ochimo?  Are there more than one of each type?


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2009)

freyar said:


> Diplomacy, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot  ?  Dunno, they seem like they might be sent on diplomatic type missions, hence the Cha skills.  They also seem sneaky despite the armor, somehow.    Do you have any better ideas?




Here's the samurai's lists...

Complete Warrior version:  Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (history)(Int), Knowledge (nobility and royalty)(Int), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).

OA Version: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Iaijutsu Focus (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Swim (Str).



freyar said:


> Ride-by Attack, either Two-weapon Defense or Ability Focus (spirit capture gaze) depending on how tough we want that to be for the CR.




I'm fine with being tough, since they're unique.  Plus, the spirit sucking seems their main role.



freyar said:


> The rest is good.  For 2-4 in organization, do you mean the different types of Ochimo?  Are there more than one of each type?




Indeed, one of each type.   That should probably be clarified, eh?


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2009)

The skills seem similar to my list.  I could see swapping Gather Information for Knowledge or Profession, but I don't know that those are really any better.

Ability Focus it is!

I'm having trouble coming up with the group noun, but we could say (plus 1 to 3 of the other unique Ochimos).


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2009)

It looks like the preferred term for a grouping of samurai is "clan".

Samurai - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2009)

Clan it is, then.  With those additions, are we ready for the next one?  I don't think we need to make things too different, just change up the unique items, perhaps a couple abilities, natural armor, and skills.


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2009)

We'll still need to determine CR, height/weight, and languages.

Also, Ride-by Attack requires Mounted Combat as a prereq.  Replace RBA w/Mounted Combat, or something else?


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2009)

Ooops, yes, make that replacement.  I think Mounted Combat makes a lot of sense for it, don't you?  Plus this way we can keep one feat for customization of the Ochimos.

CR 8 or maybe 9 (comparing to bodak).

6 ft tall, 230 lb?

speaks Common and some nice OA language?  Shou lung or whatever the right language is?


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2009)

It looks like it is simply "Shou".

Updated.

Ready for the next ochimo?


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2009)

Ready!


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2009)

It looks like the Water Ochimo is next in the original text.



> The Water Ochimo converts its target into a human-shaped vessel of water, which is then sucked through the eyeholes of the mask.






> The Earth Ochimo has a red disc, the Fire Ochimo yellow, the *Water Ochimo green*, and the Air Ochimo blue.






> The Water Ochimo wears a talisman of the restless dead. This device looks like a small birds-foot charm on a leather thong. It forces spirits to animate the bones of any long-dead humans and humanoids that are available (these are similar to western skeletons, and may be turned, though they are also affected by spells that deal with spirits). Up to 20 such skeletons may be animated in a single day.


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2009)

I think the way we wrote up Capture Spirit, we don't really need to change that, don't you agree?

For the talisman, maybe it acts as animate dead (skeletons only) 3/day at CL 5?  That's 30 HD of skeletons.

Want to tweak the ability scores?  I could see improving Dex a little, maybe decreasing Int or Wis a little.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2009)

Talisman sounds good.

If we follow the usual elemental approach, a water creature will have higher Dex and lower Str than an earth creature.  I don't think we need to tinker with mental stats between the types.


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2009)

Let's go with the usual approach for elemental types then.  Sounds good.  Maybe +/- 2 on those two stats?


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Shall we replace Ride ranks and Mounted Combat?


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2009)

Hey, let's add that the possessor of the talisman can command all the skeletons it animates.  Sound good?

The best I can think of is Knowledge (religion) (for undead) or maybe Swim (since it's water) for Ride.  Maybe Reckless Offense or Stand Still for Mounted Combat.


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## Shade (Aug 7, 2009)

Good suggestion.

Its armor is going to make it a terrible swimmer, even with ranks, so let's go with Knowledge (religion).

Reckless Offense doesn't seem to befit a noble samurai, but Stand Still sure does.  

Updated.


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2009)

Looks good!  One thought: maybe we should limit the skeleton control to the skeletons created the same day, or else it might be open to abuse.

I might insist on Reckless Offense for the fire ochimo if you can't keep up with something better.   They are chaotic after all.


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## Shade (Aug 7, 2009)

Fair enough to all that.



> The Fire Ochimo fires beams of flame from the eyehole of its mask, converting the target to a fine ash that is blown away.






> The Earth Ochimo has a red disc, the *Fire Ochimo yellow*, the Water Ochimo green, and the Air Ochimo blue.






> The Fire Ochimo wears a ring of spells, a form of the ring of spell storing. This ring will only hold seven levels of spells at any one time. It is currently filled with one magic missile spell placed there by the Opawang (nine missiles for 1d4+1 points of damage each) and a wither spell.




Fire elementals tend to have a higher Dex and lower Str and Con than earth and water elementals.

So how about we take the earth stats and go Str -4, Dex +4, Con -2?

FYI, the air elemental, when we get to the air ochimo, has the same Str and Con as fire, but even higher Dex.


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2009)

Abilities sound good.

The ring, on the other hand, is BOOORING!  Almost too standard.  As a difference (besides the weird 7 levels of spells -- you want to promote it to a major ring of spell storing, 10 levels?), maybe it uses whatever CL is used to cast into it, as opposed to the minimum required for the spell?  I think the magic missile bit would justify that (though I think there's now a max of 5 missiles).  And isn't wither from the Spell Compendium?  We should change that, I guess.


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2009)

Sure, that works for me.

And yeah, withering touch is in the Spell Compendium.  Or we could go the old fashioned router and compare it to the effects of a rod of withering (which is in the SRD).


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## freyar (Aug 11, 2009)

This gives me an idea.  What if we make it a minor ring of spell storing (as normal, no funny CL business) that allows the wielder to make, say, 1 melee touch attack per day to do 1d4 Str and 1d4 Con damage (drain on a critical)?


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2009)

Simple, yet elegant.


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Would you still like to replace Mounted Combat with Reckless Offense for this "hothead".  

Suggested replacement for Ride skill?


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## freyar (Aug 12, 2009)

Make it a minor ring of spell storing, and it's good.  We should also give him a couple spells listed in the flavor.  Maybe 2 magic missiles and something else the opawang knows?

Definitely Reckless Offense; it will help with the touch attacks. 

Maybe Knowledge (arcana)?  I'm open to better ideas, though.


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## Shade (Aug 13, 2009)

Updated.

I gave it shield as the final spell, as the Opawang has a spell called "deflection".


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## freyar (Aug 13, 2009)

Looking good!  Ready for the last one?


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## Shade (Aug 13, 2009)

Sure!



> The Air Ochimo blows a blast of air from the mouth of its mask. This reduces the target to fine dust, which it inhales.






> The Earth Ochimo has a red disc, the Fire Ochimo yellow, the Water Ochimo green, *and the Air Ochimo blue*.






> The Air Ochimo wields the blades of excellent damage. These blades are a katana and wakizashi that are +2 to hit, are unbreakable, and always inflict maximum damage. These blades were used by the Black Leopard Priest's best warrior in the battle against the Shou Lung, but their origin predates that time. They radiate a strong sense of evil, and those of good alignment feel a need to destroy the blades and their wielder.






			
				Me said:
			
		

> FYI, the air elemental, when we get to the air ochimo, has the same Str and Con as fire, but even higher Dex.




Take fire ochimo, add +2 to Dex?


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## freyar (Aug 14, 2009)

+2 Dex is fine.  

Interesting weapons.  +2 enhancement bonus, I think.  Do you want to keep the maximum damage property or add some bonus dice?  I kind of like the maximization, just because it's so unusual.  Same with the unbreakability: keep it, or go with a bonus vs sundering?  Make them intelligent and evil?


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## Shade (Aug 14, 2009)

We could make them unbreakable, like artifacts.

I'm torn on the max damage.  It's kind of cool, but I have a nagging thought that it's somehow unbalanced.     Reassure me.  

If not max damage, I could see going with keen.


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## freyar (Aug 14, 2009)

Keen or wounding would work, but is maximized damage really worse than Maximize Spell?  

Unbreakable like artifacts makes sense.  What do you think about giving them some limited intelligence to explain the evil aura?


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## Shade (Aug 14, 2009)

What the hell, it's unique after all.  We'll go with max damage.  I'm fine with Intelligence.  Go with the least version (Two mental scores at 12, one at 10, Empathy, One lesser power, 30 ft. vision and hearing)?

Added to Homebrews


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## freyar (Aug 15, 2009)

They look good.

You know, if we can specify that they have an evil aura, maybe they don't need to be intelligent -- I'm not sure I want these to be so much cooler than the other unique items for the other Ochimo.  What do you think is a weakish lesser power for them?

BTW, looking back at the water ochimo, I think we should change the last sentence of the talisman to "Additionally, the possessor of the talisman can automatically command all the skeletons it has animated in the past 24 hours." to prevent abuse if a PC gets it.


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2009)

Sure, an evil aura but unintelligent is just fine.  In that case, we won't need a lesser power.

Updated.

Replace Reckless Offense with Two-Weapon Defense?

I will fix the water ochimo.


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## freyar (Aug 17, 2009)

Two-Weapon Defense is just what I was thinking.  Replace Knowledge (arcana) with Tumble?


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2009)

Sounds good.

Updated.


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## freyar (Aug 17, 2009)

I think these are done, we just need to finish the opawang for a complete set!


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## Shade (Aug 27, 2009)

*Island Serpents*
(Lesser Spirits)
Frequency: Very Rare
No. Appearing: 1
Armor Class: 8
Move: 6"
Hit Dice: 3
% in Lair: 10%
Treasure Type: I
No. of Attacks: 1
Damage/Attack: 2d6 or 1d6
Special Attacks: Sleeping poison
Special Defenses: None
Magic Resistance: Standard
Intelligence: Very
Alignment: Neutral Good
Size: M
Psionic Ability: None
Level/XP Value: 160 + 3/hp

The island serpents appear as great ghostly snakes, as long as python. Their large fangs do not retract, but rather jut over the lower lips like a sabre-toothed tiger's. The island serpents are the part of Harooga's consciousness that has not been captured by the Opawang. They are the only native spirits on the island that are not controlled by the Opawang.

The island serpents attack by constriction for 2d6 points per round. They also bite for 1d6, the venom inducing sleep for 1d4+1 rounds in those who fail a saving throw vs. poison. They do not consume human prey, preferring to use this poison to sneak off into the underbrush.

Island serpents are affected by all spells that affect spirits and serpents, including spells like snake charm and the like. They may be hit by normal weaponry.

If spoken with, the island serpents tell a story of a beautiful maiden of great virtue (Harooga) held by an undying warlord of great evil at the heart of huge temple in the center of the jungle. The island serpents call this warlord Opawang, the Dead Spirit King, and his city Opawangchicheng. They tell the characters that the spirit warriors serve him. The serpents also note that the other spirits on the island cannot be trusted, as the Opawang is holding Harooga hostage. The island serpents know Shou Lung, Wa, Kozakuran, and the tongue of the Black Leopard People.

Originally appeared in OA3 - Ochimo the Spirit Warrior (1987).


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## freyar (Aug 27, 2009)

How strange.  They start off sounding incorporeal but then have very corporeal attacks.  Hmm.

Type?  Fey?  Are fey spirits?


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## Shade (Aug 27, 2009)

The answer appears to be "yes".  



			
				Oriental Adventures said:
			
		

> Spirit creatures include some fey and elementals (nature spirits), outsiders (celestial spirits), undead (ghosts and ancestors), and even dragons. Spirit creatures are not necessarily incorporeal, despite their name--in the worlds of Oriental Adventures, some spirits are as much flesh and bone as humans are. The only game effect of the spirit subtype is that spirit creatures are all affected by spells such as commune with greater spirit, invisibility to spirits, and protection from spirits.


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## freyar (Aug 27, 2009)

Well, magical beast might be better, but I think fey is the best of the spirits. Do you agree?


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## Shade (Aug 27, 2009)

Yes on both counts, although I'm not entirely convinced that a magical beast couldn't have the spirit subtype (perhaps simply none in OA did)?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 27, 2009)

I don't think there were any magical beasts with the spirit subtype in OA, but there's no reason we can't add any. Perhaps the "ghostly" refers to a miss chance? Or they become incorporeal during movement?


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## Shade (Aug 27, 2009)

Let's go with magical beast, then.

Use physical stats of Medium viper  (Str 8, Dex 17, Con 11)?

Int is Very (11-12).


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## freyar (Aug 28, 2009)

The miss chance is a nice idea, definitely worth thinking about.

Str 8, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 11?


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## Shade (Aug 31, 2009)

That'll work.  I'll try to Homebrew these after an upcoming meeting (busy morning).


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## Shade (Aug 31, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Should we boost Str to 10-11, since they didn't have a damage penalty and rely on constriction?   A Medium constrictor snake has Str 17, Dex 17, Con 13, by comparison.

Give 'em the usual snake racial skill modifiers?

Skills: Snakes have a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. A snake can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. Snakes use either their Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher. A snake has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## freyar (Aug 31, 2009)

I'm ok with bumping as far as Str 16, actually.

Thinking about the fact that the Opawang doesn't control them, should they be immune to commanding?  That's not quite the same as mind-affecting, I think.

Edit: I'm also fine with the snake skill modifiers.


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2009)

Updated.

The "immune to commanding" bit would be a bit odd.  I proposed in the Opawang that we change his ability to a Su compulsion effect, which would allow us to change these guys to simply "immune to compulsions".  Does that work?


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## freyar (Sep 1, 2009)

I was thinking the same thing, so I'm happy with that idea.


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2009)

Does this work for the miss chance?

Spectral Scales (Su):  An island serpent's ghostly scales make it difficult to target an island serpent. Any melee or ranged attack directed at it has a 20% miss chance.


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## freyar (Sep 1, 2009)

Looks good!

Poison: primary sleep for 1d6 rounds, secondary sleep for 1d4 minutes?  I bumped the primary to make it feasible you sleep straight through.


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2009)

Seems reasonable.

Updated.


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## freyar (Sep 2, 2009)

Languages are good.

Skills: Hide, Listen, Spot?

Feats: Alertness and Imp Init (borrowing from both constrictors and vipers)?

Maybe CR 2 or even a tough CR 1 since they're friendly.  They're comparable to Large vipers -- the bite is better, but the poison isn't as bad.


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## Shade (Sep 2, 2009)

Updated.

I'm leaning toward CR 2, since their damage output is higher and they benefit from the miss chance.


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## freyar (Sep 2, 2009)

Good point about the miss chance.  CR 2 it is.

Advancement: 4–5 HD (Medium); 6–10 HD (Large) like the Medium constrictor?

Environment and alignment seem right.  I'm not sure the treasure type, but I'm guessing mostly incidental and not too much of it.

6-10 ft long, 40-60 lb?  I'm basing that off what wikipedia has for boa constrictors.


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2009)

Treasure type I looks like half standard.

Updated.  Finished.


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2009)

Yup, they're done.


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2009)

*Camel of the Pearl* 
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: High (13-14)
TREASURE: nil
ALIGNMENT: Lawful good
NO. APPEARING: 1 (2-12)
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 24
HIT DICE: 5
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8/2-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Trample
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE 10%:
SIZE: G (30’ tall)
MORALE: Elite (14)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 1,400

Camels of the pearl are said to have been carved from a single great pearl by Jisan of the floods at the dawn of the world, and they have served the cause of good and righteousness ever since. Their deep, enormous eyes reflect both their tranquility and their great power.

Camels of the pearl are gigantic, positively elephantine animals with white fur, pearly eyes, and great power. They speak as humans do, and know the language of giants, genies, and others as well. They generally kneel when speaking to smaller creatures, so as not to intimidate them with their size. Camels of the pearl who have decided to serve as steeds are often fitted with rich bridles, saddles, and trappings of silk, silver, samite, bronze, and carefully-gilded leather. Somehow, though, even the richest gear only makes a camel of the pearl seem more humble.

Combat: Camels of the pearl are powerful healers and teachers. They have all the spell abilities of a 7th-level cleric with a 17 Wisdom. In addition, they can cure disease or neutralize poison at will by licking the face of an afflicted person. Three times per day they can create food and water to feed the hungry or the poor.

Camels of the pearl can blight the ventures of those who abuse their station or responsibilities, generally by teaching others to resist and to demand fair treatment. They can also create fool.s gold to bribe evil creatures with or to buy them off.

Camels of the pearl do not spit, but if severely provoked they can fight as well as war camels. They can bite for 1-8 points of damage and trample for 2d6. A successful trampling attack forces the opponent to remain prone, giving the camel an additional +4 to hit on future trampling attacks. If a camel of the pearl misses a trampling attack, its foe may regain its feet if it undertakes no other action that round. A camel of the pearl may become invisible at will.

Habitat/Society: Camels of the pearl seek out people and places where they can be of service. They are glad to shoulder burdens, but they also insist that those they help help themselves. They often serve noble djinn and some desert giants as steeds and symbols of authority.

Ecology: Camels of the pearl are omnivores, eating insects, whole plants, grain, prepared foods, and even fish. They have a definite sweet tooth and can sometimes be persuaded to stay in an area longer than they might otherwise if they are plied with sugar, honey, date wine, mead, confections, or sweet fruit. They can travel without food or water for up to a month.

Camels of the pearl most enjoy the company of other lawful good beings, but they are also willing to try to convert others through their good example. They frequently minister to those who would exploit them, but camels of the pearl are wise enough to see through these attempts and leave any situation where their good works are twisted to selfish ends. 

The White Mirage
There are legends of the greatest camel of the pearl, a beast created to serve the gods as their steed, carved from the heart of the pearl that gave birth to all such camels. This animal is said to be near immortal, still roaming the world thousands of years after its birth, providing for the needy and calling down curses on those who harm it or those who oppose the will of the Loregiver. The White Mirage is most commonly encountered in the deep desert by stranded or dying travelers, most of whom claim that it led them to an oasis and healed them before leaving them on a caravan route to be picked up by passing merchants. It has all the abilities of the lesser camels of the pearl as well as the spell abilities of a 20th-level priest. It appears only to travelers who are both good and industrious; pious sluggards do not gain its sympathy, nor do hard-working cheats. Those who are both lazy and malicious will only regret meeting the White Mirage; it may curse them with poverty, barrenness, the attentions of genies, the evil eye, or rapid aging and decline. The curses visited on such misguided souls generally mirror the sufferings they have visited on others. In rare cases, they are given warnings of what will come if they don.t change their ways.

Originally appeared in Al-Qadim Monstrous Compendium Appendix (1992).


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 9, 2009)

OK, so we have a Wisdom score (17). We have a caster level. We have (a large amount) of camel stats. Shall we start with the stats of our Huge prehistoric camel, size it up once again and see where that gets us?


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## freyar (Sep 9, 2009)

Yup.  But these really need more than 5HD.  I could go up to high teens or even 20 HD, but then the caster level starts to seem low.  Hmmm.


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## Cleon (Sep 9, 2009)

freyar said:


> Yup.  But these really need more than 5HD.  I could go up to high teens or even 20 HD, but then the caster level starts to seem low.  Hmmm.




I agree. We could reduce them in size to Large, but that wouldn't be in keeping with their elephantine flavour, so I'm for upping both HD and CL.

How about 15 Hit Dice and doubling the caster level to 14?


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2009)

Assuming all that, here's how it looks.

Gargantuan Animal  
Hit Dice: 15d10+120 (202 hp) 
Initiative: +3 
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares) 
Armor Class: 20 (-4 size, +3 Dex, +11 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+39
Attack: Bite +23 melee (2d6+12) 
Full Attack: Bite +23 melee (2d6+12) and two stamps +21 melee (2d6+8) 
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft. (15 ft. with bite) 
Special Attacks: Spit, trample 3d8+18
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, sure feet 
Saves: Fort +17, Ref +12, Will +7
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 16, Con 26, Int 13-14, Wis 17, Cha x
Skills: x
Feats: Ability Focus (spit), Endurance, Multiattack, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 9, 2009)

Looks pretty good. They're going to lose spit, of course, and the feats to go with it.


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2009)

Indeed.

Int 13 and Cha 17?


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## Cleon (Sep 9, 2009)

Shade said:


> Assuming all that, here's how it looks.
> 
> Gargantuan Animal
> Hit Dice: 15d10+120 (202 hp)
> ...




You appear to have given it a Magical Beast's BAB and saves but forgotten to change its type.

The Dex and Con are higher than you'd get from just advancing a Camel, but I guess that's OK for such a wonder-beast.

I'm thinking since we increased its clerical power we should give it a Wisdom boost as well - Wis 21 or so?

Oh, and its Will save doesn't add up - if its a Magical Beast with Wis 17 it should be +8 (5 from 15 HD, +3 from Wis).


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2009)

Yep, I intended to make it a magical beast and screwed up the Will save.

I think the higher Wis sounds fine.  Anyone opposed?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 10, 2009)

Not opposed to a better Wisdom.


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2009)

Nope, these ideas all sound good.


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.



> Camels of the pearl can blight the ventures of those who abuse their station or responsibilities, generally by teaching others to resist and to demand fair treatment. They can also create fool's gold to bribe evil creatures with or to buy them off.




Some sort of curse ability?

Borrow fool's gold SLA from the demon drake?


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## Cleon (Sep 10, 2009)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




You know, since it's all clerical and all I'd fancy giving it a good Will save.

It's such a potent (and supernatural!) creature that giving it all-good saves like an Outsider or Dire Animal doesn't seem unreasonable.



Shade said:


> Some sort of curse ability?




Would just _bestow curse_ as a Spell-Like Ability be enough?

Or make it a supernatural Wis-based ability with the same effects as _bestow curse _(which should give it a higher DC)?



Shade said:


> Borrow fool's gold SLA from the demon drake?




Yup!


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 11, 2009)

We could just give it bestow curse as one of its spells per day. I do like fool's gold.


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2009)

That's all good, including if we want to go to a good Will save.

Isn't fool's gold from the asperim, not the demon drake?


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2009)

You're right, it was the asperim.  

Updated.

Spells: Camels of the pearl can cast divine spells as 7th-level clerics. A camel of the pearl also has access to the Healing domain. The save DCs are Wisdom-based.

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/6+1/4+1/3+1/2+1; save DC 15 + spell level): 0—6 more;
1st—cure light wounds*, 6 more;
2nd—cure moderate wounds*, 4 more;
3rd—bestow curse, cure serious wounds*, 2 more;
4th—cure critical wounds*, 2 more;
*Domain spell. Domains: Healing.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 11, 2009)

Perhaps sun as the other domain?


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2009)

Great idea!


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## Shade (Sep 14, 2009)

Spells: Camels of the pearl can cast divine spells as 7th-level clerics. A camel of the pearl also has access to the Healing and Sun domains. The save DCs are Wisdom-based.

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/6+1/4+1/3+1/2+1; save DC 15 + spell level): 0—create water, detect magic, detect poison, guidance, resistance, virtue;
1st—endure elements*, bless, divine favor, protection from evil, remove fear, sanctuary, shield of faith;
2nd—cure moderate wounds*, aid, calm emotions, shield other, zone of truth;
3rd—bestow curse, searing light*, helping hand, prayer;
4th—cure critical wounds*, death ward, neutralize poison;
*Domain spell. Domains: Healing, Sun.


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## freyar (Sep 14, 2009)

Wow, looks like a nice spell list.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 14, 2009)

Like the spell list. I always forget that helping hand even exists.


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## Shade (Sep 14, 2009)

Yeah, we convert so few friendly, non-aggressive creatures that I forget about many of the benign, don't-immediately-fix-some-negative-condition spells.  

Updated.



> They speak as humans do, and know the language of giants, genies, and others as well.




Camels of the pearl speak Auran, Celestial, Common, and Giant?



> They can travel without food or water for up to a month.




Ability or flavor text?


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## freyar (Sep 14, 2009)

Languages are good.

Uhh, sounds maybe like a natural ability, so flavor is probably ok.  Unless there's more we want to do with it.


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## Cleon (Sep 15, 2009)

Shade said:


> Spells: Camels of the pearl can cast divine spells as 7th-level clerics. A camel of the pearl also has access to the Healing and Sun domains. The save DCs are Wisdom-based.
> 
> Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/6+1/4+1/3+1/2+1; save DC 15 + spell level): 0—create water, detect magic, detect poison, guidance, resistance, virtue;
> 1st—endure elements*, bless, divine favor, protection from evil, remove fear, sanctuary, shield of faith;
> ...




We were talking about boosting their clerical level, since we tripled their HD, have you decided to toss that idea?


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2009)

I'm OK with increasing their spellcasting.  Anyone opposed?  If not, to what level?


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2009)

Earlier we discussed going to CL 14.  I'd forgotten about that, and it seems appropriate.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 15, 2009)

I kind of like them just being 7th level clerics.


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2009)

Well, ok, they're CR based on other stuff isn't likely to be too high, but probably more than 7th just from the hp.  What if we compromise on CL 10 or 11?


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2009)

How about we keep 'em at 7th, but make "The White Mirage" as a greater version with the full 20th-level casting?  Or split the difference at caster level 10th, making them a tad better than lammasu?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 16, 2009)

10th level casting works for me.


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## Cleon (Sep 16, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> 10th level casting works for me.




Likewise.

Okay, so how many extra spells does that give us ... one 2nd, one 3rd, two 4th and five 5th. (including 5th level bonus spells from Wisdom & Domain).

For the 5th level Domain spell, I think _flame strike_ is a better default pick than _mass cure light wounds_ since it won't always have a lot of allies.

There are a lot of other tempting 5th level spells. I fancy _break enchantment_, _symbol of sleep_ and _righteous might_ (because 30 foot just ain't big enough for a camel fighting for justice )


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2009)

Ok, CL 10.  Cleon's 5th level spell suggestions look good.  So then let's add the following to the spell list in homebrews (all subject to debate ):

2nd - consecrate
3rd - daylight
4th - dismissal, spell immunity
5th - break enchantment, flame strike*, greater command, righteous might, symbol of sleep


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 16, 2009)

You've got one 5th level spell too many. And of those suggested, I suggest dropping righteous might, if only because it's not too fitting with the rest of their gentle helping spells and it'd be a headache for a DM to adjucate


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2009)

You're right.  I'll let you and Cleon duke it out over which spell to drop.   I added greater command, but I don't care much one way or the other.


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> You've got one 5th level spell too many. And of those suggested, I suggest dropping righteous might, if only because it's not too fitting with the rest of their gentle helping spells and it'd be a headache for a DM to adjucate




Agreed.

Updated.

Skills: 54 ranks (max 18)
Concentration, Diplomacy, Heal, Sense Motive, Survival...

Feats: 6
We can borrow, but don't necessarily need to retain, these from the dire camel:  Endurance, Multiattack, Power Attack
Self-Sufficient seems a good choice, as does Negotiator.


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2009)

11 ranks in each skill suggested except 10 in Survival?

Agreed to Self-Sufficient and Negotiator.  Endurance may make sense.  Rather than Multiattack and Power Attack, maybe something for its spellcasting?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 17, 2009)

Empower Spell, perhaps, used for healing spells?


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2009)

Perhaps also Extend Spell for some of the buffs.  So we have Negotiator, Self-Sufficient, Endurance, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, and one more.  Put back Multiattack?


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2009)

Updated.

Environment: Warm deserts?  (It says "any" in the original description, but it would be odd to find a camel in, say, cold mountains or temperate swamps)

Organization: Solitary or x (2–12)  ("blessing"?  "benevolence"?)

Advancement: 16-42 HD (Huge); 43-45 HD (Gargantuan)?  (this preserves the dire camel's advancement)


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 17, 2009)

Should we include a note about how advancement would affect their spellcasting?


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## Cleon (Sep 18, 2009)

freyar said:


> You're right.  I'll let you and Cleon duke it out over which spell to drop.   I added greater command, but I don't care much one way or the other.




I have no objection to dropping _righteous might_, although I'd fancy something outsider- or summoning-related to replace it instead of _greater command_. I'm thinking of such spells as _dispel evil_, _plane shift_ or _summon monster V_.

Of those, I feel _dispel evil_ is probably the most appropriate giving the flavour text.

That might make _dismissal _redundant. I'd replace it with a utility spell like _air walk_, _divination_ or _tongues_. A giant camel that walks on clouds or can speak any language seems appropriately for an "Arabian Tales" creature, although I think prophetic powers (e.g. _divination_) would make a better default.

That would make:

4th—cure critical wounds*, death ward, divination, neutralize poison, spell immunity;
5th—break enchantment, dispel evil, flame strike*, symbol of sleep;

What do you think?


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## Cleon (Sep 18, 2009)

freyar said:


> 11 ranks in each skill suggested except 10 in Survival?




That works for me. That comes out as:*Skills:* Concentration +19, Diplomacy +16, Heal +18, Sense Motive +18, Survival +17​Concentration (11+8), Diplomacy (11+3+2), Heal (11+5+2), Sense Motive (11+5+2), Survival (10+5+2), 



freyar said:


> Perhaps also Extend Spell for some of the buffs.  So we have Negotiator, Self-Sufficient, Endurance, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, and one more.  Put back Multiattack?




I'd go for either Power Attack (I suspect it would give more bang-for-the-buck than Multiattack, giving its high attack), or Spell Penetration (to help overcome that pesky spell resistance so many evil outsiders have).


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## Cleon (Sep 18, 2009)

Shade said:


> Environment: Warm deserts?  (It says "any" in the original description, but it would be odd to find a camel in, say, cold mountains or temperate swamps)
> 
> Organization: Solitary or x (2–12)  ("blessing"?  "benevolence"?)
> 
> Advancement: 16-42 HD (Huge); 43-45 HD (Gargantuan)?  (this preserves the dire camel's advancement)




You get a strong yeah for deserts, although I would suggest "any desert" rather than "warm desert" since camels can live in cold arid places as well.

I like "benevolence" for the collective noun.

The Advancement HD is fine but the sizes are wrong, shouldn't they be 16-42 HD (Gargantuan); 43-45 HD (Colossal).

Speaking of sizes, I would like to tweak the description a bit and say they are 30 feet tall to the hump. Since (a) we just have to mention the hump, and (b) a large camel is 6' at the shoulder and 7' at the hump, bumping it up two sizes would make it around four times taller - 24' shoulder and 28' hump, which seems to fit quite nicely.

They also weigh about as much as a horse - say 1200-1500 pounds for a big 7' camel. That works out around 45 tons for a Gargantuan version.

So, something like "A camel of the pearl stands 30 feet tall to the top of its hump, or 25 feet tall at the shoulder, and weighs about 45 tons."


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Should we include a note about how advancement would affect their spellcasting?




Good call.  +1 spell level/2 additional HD (max 20th level)?



Cleon said:


> Of those, I feel _dispel evil_ is probably the most appropriate giving the flavour text.




Agreed.



Cleon said:


> That might make _dismissal _redundant. I'd replace it with a utility spell like _air walk_, _divination_ or _tongues_. A giant camel that walks on clouds or can speak any language seems appropriately for an "Arabian Tales" creature, although I think prophetic powers (e.g. _divination_) would make a better default.




I'd prefer air walk.



Cleon said:


> That works for me. That comes out as:*Skills:* Concentration +19, Diplomacy +16, Heal +18, Sense Motive +18, Survival +17​Concentration (11+8), Diplomacy (11+3+2), Heal (11+5+2), Sense Motive (11+5+2), Survival (10+5+2),




You forgot the +2 synergy bonus to Diplomacy from Sense Motive.



> I'd go for either Power Attack (I suspect it would give more bang-for-the-buck than Multiattack, giving its high attack), or Spell Penetration (to help overcome that pesky spell resistance so many evil outsiders have).




Let's go with Power Attack, since I don't imagine they encounter very many high-level evil outsiders in the deserts of the Material Plane.



Cleon said:


> The Advancement HD is fine but the sizes are wrong, shouldn't they be 16-42 HD (Gargantuan); 43-45 HD (Colossal.




Yep...I forgot we started them at Gargantuan.  In that case, no need to preserve the dire camel's sizes.



Cleon said:


> So, something like "A camel of the pearl stands 30 feet tall to the top of its hump, or 25 feet tall at the shoulder, and weighs about 45 tons."




That works for me!

Updated.


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## Cleon (Sep 18, 2009)

Shade said:


> I'd prefer air walk.




_air walk_ was my second choice. I'm fine either way.



Shade said:


> You forgot the +2 synergy bonus to Diplomacy from Sense Motive.




So I did! Well, that means our skill calculations are in agreement.



Shade said:


> Let's go with Power Attack, since I don't imagine they encounter very many high-level evil outsiders in the deserts of the Material Plane.




You'd be surprised, the Forces of Evil get everywhere, you know.



Cleon said:


> The Advancement HD is fine but the sizes are wrong, shouldn't they be 16-42 HD (Gargantuan); 43-45 HD (Colossal.




Hmm, those Forces of Evil seem to have struck in my last post by removing the closing paranthesis after Colossal. I'd better pop back in there and dispel that evil!


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2009)

Cr 12?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 18, 2009)

I like the advancement suggestion, and I think CR 12 is appropriate.


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2009)

Updated.

Ready for this guy?

*The White Mirage*
There are legends of the greatest camel of the pearl, a beast created to serve the gods as their steed, carved from the heart of the pearl that gave birth to all such camels. This animal is said to be near immortal, still roaming the world thousands of years after its birth, providing for the needy and calling down curses on those who harm it or those who oppose the will of the Loregiver. The White Mirage is most commonly encountered in the deep desert by stranded or dying travelers, most of whom claim that it led them to an oasis and healed them before leaving them on a caravan route to be picked up by passing merchants. It has all the abilities of the lesser camels of the pearl as well as the spell abilities of a 20th-level priest. It appears only to travelers who are both good and industrious; pious sluggards do not gain its sympathy, nor do hard-working cheats. Those who are both lazy and malicious will only regret meeting the White Mirage; it may curse them with poverty, barrenness, the attentions of genies, the evil eye, or rapid aging and decline. The curses visited on such misguided souls generally mirror the sufferings they have visited on others. In rare cases, they are given warnings of what will come if they don.t change their ways.


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## Cleon (Sep 19, 2009)

Shade said:


> Cr 12?




That seems about right.

I'm not sure I like the HD advancement. Only 43-45 HD in Colossal seems off. Maybe 33-45HD?


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## freyar (Sep 19, 2009)

The extended HD range for Colossal sounds good.

So, advance them all the way up for the White Mirage?


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## Cleon (Sep 20, 2009)

freyar said:


> So, advance them all the way up for the White Mirage?




That seems right. We only need to upsize the stats and add some spells and feats. I'm thinking it'll probably get the epic feat Improved Spell Capacity at least once so it can have 10th+ level spells, but might not get Epic Spellcasting.

Let's do the HD/size stat increases first. Colossal gives it +8 Str, +4 Con, +5 NA. 30 HD of advancement gives it 7 ability increases. I'm thinking 5 in Wisdom, 1 in Charisma and 1 in Dexterity [EDIT: Int not Dex]. That would give it:

Str 42, Dex 16, Con 30, Int 14, Wis 26, Cha 18

Does that look OK to you lot?


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## freyar (Sep 20, 2009)

Actually, it gets 8 ability increases, since it started at 15HD (I think, this kind of confusion came up in another monster recently).  I'd put that last one into Cha, I guess.


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## Cleon (Sep 21, 2009)

freyar said:


> Actually, it gets 8 ability increases, since it started at 15HD (I think, this kind of confusion came up in another monster recently).  I'd put that last one into Cha, I guess.




That makes sense. I'd probably use the extra point to give it Int 15 myself instead of Cha 19, but it makes no difference performance wise.

Gah! I just realised I'd had a typo in my last post. I put one of the Ability advancements in *Intelligence*, not Dexterity. (I'd toyed with the idea of putting 2 points in Dex but changed my mind).

Anyhow, I'm fine with Str 42, Dex 16, Con 30, Int 14, Wis 26, Cha 19.

Shall we talk about feats then? It gets an extra 10, nine of which can be Epic Feats, so we've got a lot of choice.

As I said earlier, a few Improved Spell Capacity feats seems an obvious pick. I still like Spell Penetration for its non-epic feat.


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## freyar (Sep 21, 2009)

Spell Penetration is probably ok, since the big guy might take on more special problems (like a phoenix). But, actually, before we get to the feats, let's look at the spell list, as that might suggest some feats.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 21, 2009)

Agreed that we should go for spells before feats.


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## Shade (Sep 21, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Spells: The White Mirage casts divine spells as a 20th-level cleric, and also has access to the Healing and Sun domains. The save DCs are Wisdom-based.

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/7+1/7+1/7+1/7+1/6+1/5+1/5+1/5+1/4+1; save DC 15 + spell level): 0—create water, detect magic, detect poison, guidance, resistance, virtue;
1st—endure elements*, bless, divine favor, protection from evil, remove fear, sanctuary, shield of faith, 1 more;
2nd—consecrate, cure moderate wounds*, aid, calm emotions, shield other, zone of truth, 2 more;
3rd—bestow curse, daylight, searing light*, helping hand, prayer, 2 more;
4th—air walk, cure critical wounds*, death ward, neutralize poison, spell immunity, 3 more;
5th—break enchantment, dispel evil, flame strike*, symbol of sleep, 3 more;
6th—5+1;
7th—5+1;
8th—5+1;
9th—4+1;
*Domain spell. Domains: Healing, Sun.


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## Cleon (Sep 22, 2009)

freyar said:


> Spell Penetration is probably ok, since the big guy might take on more special problems (like a phoenix). But, actually, before we get to the feats, let's look at the spell list, as that might suggest some feats.




That's a good idea. Although we may want to decide how many Improved Spell Capacity epic feats it gets to determine how many 10th+ level spells it has, it'd make as much sense doing that retro-actively as those spells will most likely have Metamagic feats applied to them.

Anyhow, the Domain spells should be the easiest to pick so shall we do them first. 8th - _sunburst_, 7th - _regeneration_, 6th - _heal _seem the most apt to me but I'm not sure whether to go for _mass heal _or _prismatic sphere _for the 9th.

Of the regular spell picks, I like the following:
9th: miracle, true resurrection
8th: dimensional lock, holy aura *or *shield of law, greater planar ally
7th: greater restoration, holy work *or* dictum, repulsion, symbol of stunning
6th: greater dispel magic, undeath to death, word of recall

What do you think?


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2009)

I'd prefer mass heal, since a) they're more about helping others than fighting enemies, and b) the big guy will theoretically have a larger "posse" following him around.


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## Cleon (Sep 22, 2009)

Shade said:


> I'd prefer mass heal, since a) they're more about helping others than fighting enemies, and b) the big guy will theoretically have a larger "posse" following him around.




The main reason I am undecided is it can get _mass heal_ with one of its regular 9th level spell picks, but it can only get _prismatic sphere_ as a Domain spell.

I also like the idea of it creating a "pearl of prismatic power" to smite evildoers.

That would give us the following.

9th: mass heal, miracle, prismatic sphere*, true resurrection *plus 1 more*
8th: dimensional lock, holy aura *or *shield of law, greater planar ally, sunburst* *plus 2 more*
7th: greater restoration, holy word *or* dictum, regeneration*, repulsion, symbol of stunning *plus 1 more*
6th: greater dispel magic, heal*, undeath to death, word of recall *plus 2 more*

*Domain spells

What about the other proposals, do you prefer Good or Law for the Aura and Word spells?


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2009)

Cleon said:


> The main reason I am undecided is it can get _mass heal_ with one of its regular 9th level spell picks, but it can only get _prismatic sphere_ as a Domain spell.




In that case, I'm sold on the idea.  



Cleon said:


> What about the other proposals, do you prefer Good or Law for the Aura and Word spells?




Let's mix and match.  Say holy aura and dictum?

For the remainder...
9th: storm of vengeance?
8th: discern location, greater spell immunity?
7th: control weather?
6th: banishment, heroes' feast?


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2009)

You guys are efficient.   Sounds good to me.  I like.


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2009)

We'll need to figure out how many Improved Spell Capacity feats we want, as Cleon suggested above.

I could also see this fella with Epic Spellcasting.   Contingent Ressurection (and possibly Epic Repulsion) seems a good fit.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 22, 2009)

Spell Stowaway would also be appropriate, probably for heal.


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2009)

Good call.  So how about Automatic Quicken Spell (x3), Epic Spellcasting, Improved Spell Capacity (x3), Intensify Spell, and Spell Stowaway for the epic feats?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 23, 2009)

Rather than Epic Spellcasting, how about Improved Metamagic?


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## Cleon (Sep 23, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Rather than Epic Spellcasting, how about Improved Metamagic?




My main concern about Epic Spellcasting is we'd have to shift about skill points to meet the prerequisites, but then I realized it gets an extra 48 SP for its higher Int, which is _just_ enough for 24 ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge (religion).

I like Improved Metamagic though. It also needs Quicken Spell to qualify for Automatic Quicken Spell, so how about giving it Quicken instead of Spell Penetration and switching one of the Auto-Quickens for Improved Metamagic? That works out:

*Skills:* Add 24 ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge (religion)

*Feats:* Empower Spell, Endurance, Extend Spell, Negotiator, Power Attack, Self-Sufficient, Quicken Spell
*Epic Feats:* Automatic Quicken Spell (x2), Epic Spellcasting, Improved Metamagic, Improved Spell Capacity (x3), Intensify Spell, Spell Stowaway

We'll also need to decide on its 10th, 11th and 12th level spells!


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## Cleon (Sep 23, 2009)

Hold on, did we remember to give the White Mirage its bonus spells for its higher Wisdom?

0 - 6 base
1st - 5base + 1domain* + 2wisdom = 7+1*
2nd - 5base + 1domain* + 2wisdom = 7+1*
3rd - 5base + 1domain* + 2wisdom = 7+1*
4th - 5base + 1domain* + 2wisdom = 7+1*
5th - 5base + 1domain* + 1wisdom = 6+1*
6th - 4base + 1domain* + 1wisdom = 5+1*
7th - 4base + 1domain* + 1wisdom = 5+1*
8th - 4base + 1domain* + 1wisdom = 5+1*
9th - 4base + 1domain* = 4+1*
10th - 1feat = 1
11th -  1feat = 1
12th - 1feat = 1

Current list:

1st— endure elements*, bless, divine favor, protection from evil, remove fear, sanctuary, shield of faith, *(7) 1 more*;
2nd— consecrate, cure moderate wounds*, aid, calm emotions, shield other, zone of truth, *(6) 2 more*;
3rd— bestow curse, daylight, searing light*, helping hand, prayer, *(5) 3 more*;
4th— air walk, cure critical wounds*, death ward, neutralize poison, spell immunity, *(5) 3 more*;
5th— break enchantment, dispel evil, flame strike*, symbol of sleep, *(4) 3 more*;
6th— banishment, greater dispel magic, heal*, heroes' feast, undeath to death, word of recall *(6) complete*;
7th— control weather, dictum, greater restoration, regeneration*, repulsion, symbol of stunning  *(6) complete*;
8th— dimensional lock, discern location, greater spell immunity, holy aura, greater planar ally, sunburst*  *(6) complete*;
9th— mass heal, miracle, prismatic sphere*, storm of vengeance, true resurrection *(5) complete*;
10th— *1 more*;
11th— *1 more*;
12th— *1 more*;

We are still missing some of the lower level spells.


----------



## Shade (Sep 23, 2009)

Sounds good.  It would need all its ranks in Spellcraft to have a shot at actually casting those epic spells, anyway.  So let's keep all the auto-quickens and ditch Epic Spellcasting.

It needs at least 30 ranks in Spellcraft to qualify for Improved Metamagic, so I'm pilfering 6 ranks from Knowledge (religion).

Updated.

10th—maximized sunburst?
11th—intensified flame strike or maximized storm of vengeance?
12th—intensified heal?


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2009)

Cleon said:
			
		

> We are still missing some of the lower level spells.




Yep, and Homebrews reflects that fact.


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2009)

Those spells and feats sound good.

1 - bless water
2 - remove paralysis, resist energy
3 - create food and water, remove disease

...


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## Cleon (Sep 23, 2009)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.  It would need all its ranks in Spellcraft to have a shot at actually casting those epic spells, anyway.  So let's keep all the auto-quickens and ditch Epic Spellcasting.
> 
> It needs at least 30 ranks in Spellcraft to qualify for Improved Metamagic, so I'm pilfering 6 ranks from Knowledge (religion).




Suppose that's all right, I mainly fancied Epic Spellcasting for flavour (and an excuse if it even needed to pull out the old deus et machinas) rather than something it would use in the heat of battle.

If we change our minds and decide we want it we could always switch 6 points out of Survival, it doesn't have much use for that high a Survival skill.



Shade said:


> 10th—maximized sunburst?
> 11th—intensified flame strike or maximized storm of vengeance?
> 12th—intensified heal?




I like maximized _sunburst _- just the thing for blasting away an army of Undead - except it doesn't have Maximize spell in its feat list. It needs both Empower and Maximized to qualify for Intensify spell. 

There's also something to be said for Quickened _sunburst_...

_Storm of vengeance_ doesn't seem very thematically appropriate to me, I don't see the White Mirage as carrying that spell around as a default in case it feels like devastating a city on a whim.

Intensified _flamestrike_ is 180 damage, I guess that's worthwhile, but we'd need to fix the prereqs for Intensify.

The _heal_ spell doesn't have any random variables, being fixed at 10 hp/level, so Intensify won't be of any use. I'd swap it for intensified _blade barrier_ or quickened maximized extended _blade barrier_, both 12th level. (The highest level metamagicked SRD healing spell we can do is Intensified mass cure moderate wounds. (cures 32+2/level to a 1 creatures per level), which would heal a lot less damage than _mass heal_ despite being 3 levels higher.)

Extended _summon monster XI_ (10th level)? - just the thing to whistle up a posse of a celestial roc, 1d3  celestial dire bears or 1d4+1 celestial elephants.

It looks like I'll have to think about this some more.


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Suppose that's all right, I mainly fancied Epic Spellcasting for flavour (and an excuse if it even needed to pull out the old deus et machinas) rather than something it would use in the heat of battle.




Ditto here, but here's the rub:



			
				ELH said:
			
		

> Even if the epic spell has been developed and an epic spell slot is available, successfully casting an epic spell isn't assured. The caster's Spellcraft skill modifier is vital for casting an epic spell. To cast an epic spell, a spellcaster makes a Spellcraft check against the epic spell's Spellcraft DC. If the check succeeds, the spell is cast. If the caster fails the check, the epic spell fizzles and the epic spell slot is used for the day.
> 
> Because epic spells require Spellcraft checks, a spell is beyond the caster's ability if the final Spellcraft DC is greater than 20 + the spellcaster's Spellcraft modifier. Epic spells with DCs higher than 10 + the spellcaster's Spellcraft modifier are risky; a caster can take 10 when casting an epic spell, but she can't take 20. When routinely casting epic spell, most spellcasters take 10 on their Spellcraft checks.




Contingent ressurection is DC 52, so 24 ranks and a +2 Int modifier would make it this quite difficult to use.



			
				Cleon said:
			
		

> I like maximized _sunburst _- just the thing for blasting away an army of Undead - except it doesn't have Maximize spell in its feat list. It needs both Empower and Maximized to qualify for Intensify spell.




Good point.  Need to remedy that.  I'd suggest dropping Self-Sufficient.



			
				Cleon said:
			
		

> There's also something to be said for Quickened _sunburst_...




Indeed there is.  Thankfully, its 3 Automatic Quicken Spells quicken everything through 9th level.  



			
				Cleon said:
			
		

> _Storm of vengeance_ doesn't seem very thematically appropriate to me, I don't see the White Mirage as carrying that spell around as a default in case it feels like devastating a city on a whim.




Fair enough.


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## Cleon (Sep 23, 2009)

Hold on, the White Mirage's skill points don't add up. I thought we were putting the 48 SP from its higher Int into Spellcraft and Knowledge (religion) and dividing the other extra SP from its extra HD between its other skills, but it seems to be missing most of the SP from the latter.

I make it out at 108 spell points when it should have 192 (48*4).

So, I'm thinking of giving it 42 ranks in Spellcraft*, 36 ranks in Diplomacy and Sense Motive, 24 ranks in Concentration and Knowledge (religion)*, 18 ranks in Heal and 12 ranks in Survival.

That works out as:

Skills: Concentration +34, Diplomacy +44, Heal +26, Knowledge (religion) +26, Sense Motive +46, Spellcraft +44, Survival +20

The above includes its Negotiator feat and the synergy bonus to Diplomacy from Sense Motive.

*I gave it plenty of Spellcraft and 24 ranks in Religion case we want it to get Epic Spellcasting.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 23, 2009)

Shade said:


> Indeed there is.  Thankfully, its 3 Automatic Quicken Spells quicken everything through 9th level.




Dang, I meant to type Quickened *Empowered* _sunburst_. (So it would need another Auto-Quicken feat)

I can't believe they thought it was a good idea to make Automatic Quicken Spell stackable.

I agree with swapping Self-Sufficient.

I'd also like to drop Negotiator and replace it with Epic Spellcasting.

Just cause I want Epic Spellcasting.


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2009)

Ahh...indeed.

I think we got into trouble trying to advance this thing from the base creature, rather than just recreating it whole cloth with x skills and x feats.

Let's steal back 6 ranks from Concentration to max out Spellcraft, improving its chances of casting its epic spells.  It still has little to worry about casting in battle with such high Concentration.

Updated.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 23, 2009)

So, shall we swap out storm of vengeance for... astral projection? Another mass heal?


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## Cleon (Sep 24, 2009)

Shade said:


> Ahh...indeed.
> 
> I think we got into trouble trying to advance this thing from the base creature, rather than just recreating it whole cloth with x skills and x feats.
> 
> ...




I agree with that. We also need to drop Diplomacy to +42 and Sense Motive to +44 since it doesn't have the +2 for Negotiator anymore.



demiurge1138 said:


> So, shall we swap out storm of vengeance for... astral projection? Another mass heal?




I prefer _gate_ to _astral projection,_ since it doesn't leave its body lying around vulnerable, although I also quite like _summon monster IX_.


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## freyar (Sep 24, 2009)

Well, I'll let you guys fill in the spell and feat choices, as I think I'm too far behind on this conversation for the moment.


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## Shade (Sep 24, 2009)

Cleon said:


> I agree with that. We also need to drop Diplomacy to +42 and Sense Motive to +44 since it doesn't have the +2 for Negotiator anymore.




Actually, I believe Diplomacy is correct, since synergy bonuses increase to +4 after 25 ranks.  Sense Motive will drop 2, though.



Cleon said:


> I prefer _gate_ to _astral projection,_ since it doesn't leave its body lying around vulnerable, although I also quite like _summon monster IX_.




Let's go with summon monster IX.


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## Cleon (Sep 25, 2009)

Shade said:


> Actually, I believe Diplomacy is correct, since synergy bonuses increase to +4 after 25 ranks.  Sense Motive will drop 2, though.




Oh blast, I don't think I included the synergy bonus. I keep on forgetting it.

That would make its Diplomacy +44 (36 ranks +4 Cha +4 Sense Motive synergy)


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## Shade (Sep 25, 2009)

Updated.


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## Cleon (Sep 26, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.




 Looks like we're getting there!

Apart from agreeing on the 10th-12th level spells, the only thing that leaps out at me is the attack bonuses need updating. The bite attack should be +53 melee (+45 from HD, +16 Str, -8 size) and the stamps +48 melee (Add -5 for secondary).


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## Shade (Sep 28, 2009)

Good catch.  I'm not sure why I missed that, when I remember to fix the BAB/Grapple.

Updated.

So about those 10th-12th level spells, here's what we discussed...

10th—maximized sunburst or quickened empowered sunburst or extended summon monster IX?
11th—intensified flame strike?
12th—intensified blade barrier?

Am I missing any?  Did anyone have a different suggestion?


----------



## freyar (Sep 28, 2009)

One of the sunbursts seems thematically appropriate for the 10th level slot.

We still seem to need more 4th and 5th level spells, though I might have missed some suggestions upthread.


----------



## Shade (Sep 29, 2009)

You're right!

4th—divine power, freedom of movement, repel vermin (handy for keeping those pesky scorpions away )?
5th—atonement, righteous might, true seeing?


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## Cleon (Sep 29, 2009)

Shade said:


> So about those 10th-12th level spells, here's what we discussed...
> 
> 10th—maximized sunburst or quickened empowered sunburst or extended summon monster IX?
> 11th—intensified flame strike?
> ...




I like maximized sunburst and the two intensified spells.



Shade said:


> You're right!
> 
> 4th—divine power, freedom of movement, repel vermin (handy for keeping those pesky scorpions away )?
> 5th—atonement, righteous might, true seeing?




Both _freedom of movement_ and _true seeing_ for general usefulness. Divine power is handy, but _righteous might_ is a less useful as it's already Colossal, so loses out on the Str/Con/damage increases.

I'm thinking _mark of justice_ makes a lot of sense as one of the 5th level spells, giving these Camel's modus operandi of punishing the guilty and law breakers.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 30, 2009)

I like Shade's spells, with Cleon's exception of replacing righteous might with mark of justice.


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## freyar (Oct 1, 2009)

Agreed.


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2009)

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or benevolence (1 plus 2–12 camels of the pearl)?

Challenge Rating: x

The White Mirage stands x feet tall to the top of its hump, or x feet tall at the shoulder, and weighs about x tons. 

Add any additional languages?


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## Cleon (Oct 2, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Organization: Solitary or benevolence (1 plus 2–12 camels of the pearl)?
> 
> ...




The Organization looks fine to me.

Challenge Rating should be about 22 methinks, since its 10 casting levels about the standard CR Camel of the Pearl.

Upscaling the standard CotP should give us "The White Mirage stands 60 feet tall to the top of its hump, or 50 feet tall at the shoulder, and weighs about 360 tons."

It needs an additional language since it has a higher Int. How about adding Sylvan?


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2009)

I agree with all your assessments.  Updated. 

Finished?


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## Cleon (Oct 3, 2009)

Shade said:


> I agree with all your assessments.  Updated.
> 
> Finished?




The stats looks done.

I am tempted to add "by character class" to the advancement, to allow for an epic-level spellcasting version (i.e. a 21st+ level cleric).


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## freyar (Oct 4, 2009)

It looks good by me.

I think Shade usually lets "by character class" go implicitly in a lot of cases, but I think - is fine for a unique critter like this one.


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2009)

Yeah, uniques generally lack advancement, leaving it up to the DM.  I think "by character class" is generally implied in these cases.


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2009)

*Sabu Lords *
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical/Plains and savannah
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Very (11-12)
TREASURE: F
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 3 (males), 4 (females)
MOVEMENT: 12, Jp 6
HIT DICE: 8+8
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1-6/2-16
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Roar, summoning
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (12-16' long)
MORALE: Champion (16)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 4,000

Sabu lords, or Lion Lords, are proud giant cats that live on the arid plains and savannahs of Zakhara. These intelligent lions are extremely territorial and will harass those who travel through their domains without first asking permission.

Sabu lords are larger and much stronger cats than their smaller cousins. They all have bright golden fur, while males are also distinguished by their flowing, golden-red manes. These giant predators measure 5-6' at the shoulder and have a deafening roar that can be heard for miles in all directions. Sabu lords speak the languages of all cats as well as Midani.

Combat: Lion lords rarely enter into combat alone. They are always attended by 2-12 common lions with maximum hit points, who will fight to the death if ordered by their sovereign. Like their common cousins, the senses of sabu  lords are incredibly keen, and they have a +2 bonus on their surprise rolls. They physically attack with their claws and bite and can leap as far as 60'.

Sabu lords can deliver a powerful roar, which has a 60.long, cone-shaped area of effect and is similar to an enhanced shout spell. The roar affects all creatures within its area of effect, causing 3-18 points of damage and permanent deafness. A successful save versus paralyzation reduces the damage by half and limits the deafness to a duration of 1-4 turns. Any exposed brittle or crystal substance can be shattered by the roar. (Objects in a creature’s possession are entitled to a save vs. crushing blow.) Deafened creatures receive a +1 penalty to surprise and initiative rolls, while those casting spells with verbal components have a 25 % chance of miscasting them. A lion lord can only use its special roar three times a day.

In addition to the effects described above, the roar of a sabu lord will summon all great cats in a 15-mile radius. On the plains, this means 1-4 cheetahs and 2-12 common lions will respond within 1 turn, with a like number arriving 2-5 turns later. If the boundaries of a forest are nearby, the roar will also bring 1-2 jaguars, 1-2 leopards, and 1-4 wild tigers in 2-5 turns. This small army of great cats will follow the commands of the summoning sabu lord to the death.

Habitat/Society: Sabu lords are haughty and vain creatures. The common lions in a lord’s continual attendance provide for his or her sustenance, although they may all hunt together occasionally for entertainment. Sabu lords typically claim all lands within a 15-mile radius of their lair as their domain. All cats dwelling therein are considered to be loyal subjects, while other beings (sentient or not) are considered to be either guests or potential meals.

The arrogance of a sabu lord is such that any adult will never be found in another lord’s territory. Mating takes place rather briefly at the boundary between two domains. The product of such a union is usually a single cub, which is fostered at the mother’s “court” until it reaches adulthood, after which it must leave and establish its own domain. If an encounter with two sabu lords is called for, one will be a female and the other a cub (with 1-7 hit dice).

Anyone traveling through a sabu lord’s domain is viewed as a trespasser unless he pays homage to the feline sovereign and begs for permission to pass through the cat.s lands. It is not uncommon for merchants to leave gifts of gold, gems, and food for the sabu lord as tribute, although a poor traveler with a flattering tongue may just as easily gain safe passage. Even a large, well-armed caravan is not immune to the wrath of an unappeased sabu lord. A small army of great cats will be sent to stalk and terrify the trespassers. At night, the cats’ roars will foster sleeplessness, and lightning-swift raids will deprive even the most vigilant of parties of a few mounts. Voyagers traveling in small numbers can expect even more harassment. Poorly-armed or solitary travelers will be repeatedly attacked by the great cats.

Ecology: Superstitious people consider the sabu lord to be a summoner of evil spirits. Anyone spending a night with a dozen lions, cheetahs, tigers, and jaguars roaring just beyond the light of their campfire would be hard pressed to deny such a rumor. The pelt of a sabu lord is rumored to avert evil spirits and curses, in particular the evil eye. In fact, if the hair from a sabu lord’s mane is woven into a braid, it will protect the owner with the effects of a continual avert evil eye spell for 60 days.
Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix (MC13)(1992).


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2009)

Dire lions are up to 15 feet long.  16 feet straddles the line between Large and Huge.   So, use dire lion physical stats, upsize to Huge, or split the difference (+4 Str, +2 Con)?


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## freyar (Oct 6, 2009)

Let's upsize to Huge and split the difference, I think.  We could also compare to Foo Lions and other "sovereign" kinds of animals (AB has suzerain template, for ex).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2009)

That approach to stats seems reasonable. Should the roar of summons work something like a cat-themed elemental swarm spell?


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## freyar (Oct 6, 2009)

Nice call on the summons!


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Good call on the summoning roar.  Shall we develop the damaging roar?

60-foot cone, stick with 3d6 sonic damage and permanent deafness, or model it after greater shout (as alluded to in the writeup)?

Greater shout is 60-foot cone, deals 10d6 points of sonic damage (or 1d6 points of sonic damage per caster level, maximum 20d6, against exposed brittle or crystalline objects or crystalline creatures), and causes creatures to be stunned for 1 round and deafened for 4d6 rounds. A creature in the area of the cone can negate the stunning and halve both the damage and the duration of the deafness with a successful Fortitude save. A creature holding vulnerable objects can attempt a Reflex save to negate the damage to those objects.


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## Cleon (Oct 6, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> That approach to stats seems reasonable. Should the roar of summons work something like a cat-themed elemental swarm spell?




So, something like 2dX cheetahs or leopards that round, 1dX lions or tigers (or equivalent great cats) 10 minutes later and 1 "super-great" cat like a dire lion or dire tiger 20 minutes later.

The more straightforward effects of the Roar resemble some aspects of an Androsphinx's Road, so we can probably use that as a model:



> *Roar (Su):* Three times per day an androsphinx can loose a mighty roar. The first time it does this, all creatures within 500 feet must succeed on a DC 19 Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell for 2d6 rounds.
> 
> If the sphinx roars a second time during the same encounter, all creatures within 250 feet must succeed on a DC 19 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 1d4 rounds, and all those within 90 feet are deafened for 2d6 rounds (no save). If it roars a third time during the same encounter, all those within 250 feet must succeed on a DC 19 Fortitude save or take 2d4 points of Strength damage for 2d4 rounds. In addition, any Medium or smaller creature within 90 feet must succeed on a DC 19 Fortitude save or be thrown to the ground and take 2d8 points of damage. The force of this roar is so great that it deals 50 points of damage to any stone or crystalline object within 90 feet. Magic items and held or carried items can avoid damage with a DC 19 Reflex save. Other androsphinxes are immune to these effects. The save DCs are Charisma-based.



  So, maybe something like:
*Roar (Su):* Three times per day a sabu lord can loose a mighty roar. All creatures within a 60 foot cone must succeed on a DC ?? Fortitude save or take 3d6 sonic damage and be permanently deafened. Creatures that save successfully take half damage and are only deafened for 1d4 rounds.The force of this roar is so great that it deals 50 points of sonic damage to any stone or crystalline object within the area of effect. Magic items and held or carried items can avoid this damage with a DC 19 Reflex save. Other sabu lords and androsphinxes are immune to these effects. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

 In addition to the effects described above, the roar will summon great cats in the sabu lord's service from within a 15 mile radius. *[*details of great cats which arrive.*]* This small army of great cats will follow the commands of the summoning sabu lord to the death.​


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2009)

I think the two roars (damaging and summoning) are different actions, and I think we should keep them that way.

I'd rather stick closer to greater shout than to the androsphinx here. Let's make it like greater shout, only the deafness is permanent on a failed save.


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2009)

Yeah, that's where I'm leaning, too.   Something like...

Mighty Roar (Su):  Three times per day (or once every 1d4 rounds?), a sabu lord can unleash a devastating roar in a 60-foot cone.  This attack deals 10d6 points of sonic damage (or 20d6 points of sonic damage against exposed brittle or crystalline objects or crystalline creatures), and causes creatures to be stunned for 1 round and permanently deafened.  A creature in the area of the cone can negate the stunning, halve the damage, and reduce the duration of the deafness to 4d6 rounds with a successful DC X Fortitude save. A creature holding vulnerable objects can attempt a DC X Reflex save to negate the damage to those objects.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

Call of the Pride (Su):  Three times per day, a sabu lord can roar a summons to great cats in a 15-mile radius.  One round later, 2d4 cheetahs or leopards arrive. Ten minutes later, 1d4 lions or tigers arrive. Ten minutes after that, one dire lion or dire tiger arrives. Each animal has maximum hit points per HD. This small army of great cats will follow the commands of the summoning sabu lord to the death. The sabu lord can dismiss them singly or in groups at any time.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2009)

That all looks good.


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## Cleon (Oct 6, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I think the two roars (damaging and summoning) are different actions, and I think we should keep them that way.




Well I read the original description as having both effects from the same roar - it describes an enhanced shout causing damage and deafness and then says " In addition to the effects described above" the roar summons great cats.

That said, I have no objection to splitting the power into two, although I'm tempted to give it the option to use both a summoning and damaging roar in one round as a full-round action.

EDIT: Or alternatively, it could have the option to do both types of roar simultaneously as a standard action, or its "summon roar" could be a swift action.

Oh, and I wondered about tweaking the number of big cats appearing so that there are fewer tigers than lions, since the former are a bit nastier than the latter. 1d6 lions or 1d4 tigers?

Also, are dire lions significantly different from dire tigers. I don't recall ever seeing the former's stats.


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## freyar (Oct 8, 2009)

Let's keep them split, and I fancy going with every 1d4 rounds on the mighty roar.

I can agree with having fewer tigers.


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2009)

Dire tiger's are quite a bit tougher.

Dire Lion :: d20srd.org
Dire Tiger :: d20srd.org

So maybe 1d2 dire lions or 1 dire tiger at the end stage, or drop dire tiger altogether?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 9, 2009)

1d2 dire lions is fine by me.


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2009)

Updated.



> They physically attack with their claws and bite and can leap as far as 60'.




Borrow the leap ability of the thri-kreen?



> Sabu lords speak the languages of all cats as well as Midani.




Speak with animals (felines only) at will?

Skills: 33 (Dire lions have Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot)
Intimidate also seems appropriate.

Feats: 3 (dire lions have Alertness, Run, Weapon Focus (claw))
I could see making Alertness a bonus feat, due to their "incredibly keen" senses, and adding Multiattack.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 9, 2009)

Drop Alertness and give them a +4 racial bonus to Spot and Listen. Agreed to the leap ability and the class skills you listed. Multiattack, Improved Initiative and Power Attack/Combat Expertise would be good feats (although Combat Expertise would require bumping Int to 13).

Hm. Looking at the fact that these guys only have 8 HD, greater shout once every 1d4 rounds might be too much. Should we dial back the sonic damage to 5d6?


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2009)

I'm fine with dialing back the damage.

I think I prefer Power Attack to Combat Expertise for 'em, so they can make impressive displays against uppity lions.  

Also, I realize we never assigned a Cha score.  I'm thinking fairly decent...say, 16?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 9, 2009)

16 sounds perfectly reasonable.


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2009)

Updated.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 10, 2009)

Hm. Perhaps Iron Will instead of Power Attack? That Will save is a pretty big weak spot. Aside for that, done-ish? We need a CR... 8? It's about equivalent to an androsphinx without its spellcasting, which should be a CR drop.


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## Cleon (Oct 10, 2009)

Shade said:


> Dire tiger's are quite a bit tougher.
> 
> Dire Lion :: d20srd.org
> Dire Tiger :: d20srd.org
> ...




Gah, I must be going daft. For some reason I was thinking the dire lion wasn't in the SRD.

A dire lion isn't that much tougher than a regular tiger, but I agree the dire tiger is a lot nastier. Indeed, it's got twice the HD of the Sabu Lord itself, so it doesn't seem plausible that Call of the Pride would work on it.

I propose we drop the Dire Tiger altogether, and have one dire lion as the final summons.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 10, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Hm. Perhaps Iron Will instead of Power Attack? That Will save is a pretty big weak spot. Aside for that, done-ish? We need a CR... 8? It's about equivalent to an androsphinx without its spellcasting, which should be a CR drop.




How about giving them a "Dire Beast" special quality so they have all good saving throws like a dire animal?

We wouldn't want the Dire Lion to have a better Will save than it does, methinks.

As for Skills & Feats, I like the +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, MS & Spot, and am tempted to add the same generous racial bonus to Intimidate.

Apart from that, Power Attack, Improved Initiative and Multiattack for the feats, and maybe toss in Run as a bonus feat, so it can keep up with its pride.


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## freyar (Oct 12, 2009)

Making it Dire for saves seems logical, and I can agree to those feats too.


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2009)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 6-7?

Treasure: Type F looks like double standard.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 12, 2009)

Upthread, I made an argument for CR 8, but I could see lowering it to 7.


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2009)

<scrolls up>...there it is.

Other than having less hit points and worse saves, its fairly comparable to the CR 8 dire tiger as well.   I'd say it's a strong 7/weak 8.   Let's err on the side of caution and go CR 8.

And with that, we're finished!

Let's steer this thread into the realm of horror...

*Amiq Rasol*
Climate/Terrain: Sea coast
Frequency: Very rare
Organization: Solitary
Activity Cycle: Any
Diet: Special
Int: Highly (13-14)
Treasure: Nil (C)
Alignment: Neutral evil or neutral
# Appearing: 1-10
AC: 4
Movement: 18, Sw 9
Hit Dice: 9
THAC0: 11
# Attacks: 3
Dmg/Attack: ld4/ld4 (claws), ld6 (bite)
Special Attacks: Energy drain, charm
Special Defenses: +2 or better weapon to hit, spell immunities
Magic Resistance: Nil
Size: M (5'4' tall)
Morale: Elite (14)
XP Value: 7,000

Amiq Rasol, also called deep men or dark men, are undead corsairs who were lost at sea, murdered, or marooned. Corsairs who refused to acknolwedge or turned away from the gods may also become amiq rasol. They haunt the coasts or islands nearest the site of their deaths and prey upon those mortals unlucky enough to stumble across them.  Though usually solitary (e.g. a single marooned corsair), several may be found near the spot where some disaster befell their ship.

The amiq rasol look like normal corsairs except that their eyes have an eerie greenish glow in the dark and their nails and teeth are slightly elongated. Their skin is paler than it ought to be, and their clothing shows some signs of wear.  Anyone seeing an amiq ra[sol through a gem of seeing, or while using a true seeing spell will see the creature's true appearance—a rotting corpse.

Combat:  Amiq rasol attack with claws and teeth, causing ld4 points of damage with each claw and biting for ld6. The bite of the amiq rasol also causes the victim to lose one level of experience.  As with other undead that use this attack form, the effect reduces the Hit Dice8, class bonuses, and spell abilities of the victim.  A victim drained of all levels dies, but does not become an amiq rasol in turn. Such a victim may be raised or resurrected normally.

In addition to their other powers, amiq rasol are able to cast a powerful charm spell (save vs. spell at -2) which they use to entice mortals to them.  They can use this ability three times a day.  A very few of these creatures are simply neutral rather than neutral evil; these often will use their charm spells to convince mortals to ravel to the place of their death, find their remains, and have the proper death rites performed upon them by a priest of 9th level or higher. If this rite is performed, the amiq rasol is freed from its undead existence and released to go on to its afterlife.

Amiq rasol can be turned as vampires, except in the actual place of their death, where they cannot be turned at all. They are immune to sleep, charm, hold, and cold-based spells. They can be hit only by +2 or better weapons. Holy water inflicts 2d4 points of damage per vial, but only against evil amiq rasol. A raise dead spell will slay an amiq rasol permanently, and a resurrection spell will restore the being to life. If slain by other magics or by weapons, it reconstitutes and forms another body within 24 hours.

Habitat/Society: Amiq rasol are found only near the site of their deaths. They are not tied to the exact spot, particularly if they died at sea, but are always found on islands or on the sea coast near the actual site. They feed off the energy they drain from mortals, and amiq rasol that do not feed for several years will fade away until they become wraiths. Though they prefer the dark, amiq rasol are just as capable of moving about and attacking by day. They are quite intelligent and may seek to pass themselves off as living beings in order to join a party of adventurers and assure themselves of continued feeding.

Whenever an amiq rasol travels more than 100 miles from its place of death, however, it fades away and returns to the spot of its demise. They are partly creatures of the Negative Material Plane and must therefore maintain some contact with it through their habitat. They have no true society. Even those found together seem almost entirely self-absorbed and unconcerned about their fellow undead spirits.

Ecology: Amiq rasol retain some of the some of the equipment and treasure they had when living, and collect such from their victims. One tale tells of an amiq rasol that led a party to a cache of buried treasure in return for their collecting its bones and performing the proper final rites.

Originally appeared in Corsairs of the Great Sea (1994).


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2009)

It looks like a variant wight with a variation on the following ability...

Beguiling Song (Su): A rusalka can attempt to beguile creatures with its song. The rusalka sings, targeting a single creature it can see within 300 feet of her body of water (see water symbiosis, below). This is a sonic, mind-affecting ability, and the creature must be able to hear the rusalka for it to take effect. The targeted creature must make a DC 17 Will saving throw. If the save is successful, that creature cannot be affected by that rusalka's song for one day.

Failure indicates the creature is utterly beguiled and moves toward the rusalka, taking the most direct route available. If that path leads into a dangerous area (such as very deep or fast-moving water) the beguiled creature gets a second saving throw. A rusalka who desires a companion often moves out of the water and bestows water breathing upon its beguiled victim so that she can take him underwater. A beguiled creature may take no actions other than defending himself. A beguiled victim who moves within 5 feet of the rusalka must make a DC 18 Will saving throw or be charmed as per charm monster cast by an 8th-level sorcerer. Success means that the character is freed from the beguilement and is immune to that rusalka's beguiling song for 24 hours. The beguiling effect continues so long as the rusalka sings. A rusalka does not need to continue to sing to keep a victim charmed.

A rusalka can use her beguiling song both above and below the water. Good rusalkas cast water breathing on their charmed companions to keep them alive below the waves. Evil rusalkas move into deep water, forcing a beguiled victim to move toward them but never allowing the victim to get within 5 feet. If these unlucky creatures fail their second saving throw, they usually drown (see page 304 of the DMG).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 13, 2009)

Sounds pretty accurate. Multiple attacks, but only one of them inflicts level drain, which is nice of them.


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2009)

Int is 2 points higher than a wight.  Increase Wis and Cha by a similar amount?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 13, 2009)

Seems fair. Maybe Charisma gets a bit of a boost beyond that. 4 higher than a wight or so.


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2009)

Added.

I boosted Dex a tad as well to account for the higher AC.



> The amiq rasol look like normal corsairs except that their eyes have an eerie greenish glow in the dark and their nails and teeth are slightly elongated. Their skin is paler than it ought to be, and their clothing shows some signs of wear.  Anyone seeing an amiq ra[sol through a gem of seeing, or while using a true seeing spell will see the creature's true appearance—a rotting corpse.






> They are quite intelligent and may seek to pass themselves off as living beings in order to join a party of adventurers and assure themselves of continued feeding.




Racial bonus on Disguise checks to appear living?



> A victim drained of all levels dies, but does not become an amiq rasol in turn. Such a victim may be raised or resurrected normally.




No need for create spawn, then.



> Amiq rasol can be turned as vampires, except in the actual place of their death, where they cannot be turned at all.




+4 turn resistance and turn immunity within x feet of the place of its death?



> They are immune to sleep, charm, hold, and cold-based spells. They can be hit only by +2 or better weapons. Holy water inflicts 2d4 points of damage per vial, but only against evil amiq rasol. A raise dead spell will slay an amiq rasol permanently, and a resurrection spell will restore the being to life. If slain by other magics or by weapons, it reconstitutes and forms another body within 24 hours.




DR 10/magic?

Rejuvenation, like a ghost?



> Habitat/Society: Amiq rasol are found only near the site of their deaths. They are not tied to the exact spot, particularly if they died at sea, but are always found on islands or on the sea coast near the actual site.






> Whenever an amiq rasol travels more than 100 miles from its place of death, however, it fades away and returns to the spot of its demise. They are partly creatures of the Negative Material Plane and must therefore maintain some contact with it through their habitat.




Something akin to the dryad's tree dependence?


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## Cleon (Oct 13, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Upthread, I made an argument for CR 8, but I could see lowering it to 7.




Challenge Rating 8 seems about right.

If I remember the summons rules aright, its army of cat followers are included in its CR, and they'd be worth quite a bit. 1d2 CR5 dire lions; 1d3 CR4 tigers or 1d6 CR3 lions; and 2d4 CR2 cheetahs or leopards must work out at a EL of 6-7 by themselves.

I'd judge the Sabu Lion would be worth about CR6-7 without the summoning roar, so add them together and you get an 8 or so.


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## Cleon (Oct 13, 2009)

Shade said:


> It looks like a variant wight with a variation on the following ability...
> 
> Beguiling Song (Su): A rusalka can attempt to beguile creatures with its song. The rusalka sings, targeting a single creature it can see within 300 feet of her body of water (see water symbiosis, below). This is a sonic, mind-affecting ability, and the creature must be able to hear the rusalka for it to take effect. The targeted creature must make a DC 17 Will saving throw. If the save is successful, that creature cannot be affected by that rusalka's song for one day.*SNIP*




They remind me more of a Vampire with the claws and teeth of a ghoul - the life-feeding, charm, immunity to non-magical weapons and human appearance all say "Vampire" to me

I'm not seeing where the beguiling song comes from, it just looks like a standard charm to me. They may entice victims with their charm power, but there's no mention of it being a harpy-like song, and how would it allow them to convince people to find & bury their remains?

Despite them having some vampire-like traits I would prefer to do them as a base creature rather than a template.

Anyway, these things look pretty straightforward.

They're 9 HD Medium Undead, pretty obviously.

I'm thinking they are not incorporeal, despite having their remains separate from their bodies and becoming Wraiths if they don't feed enough. They're in a bit of a grey area, corporeality wise.

A Ghast's ability scores strike me as good fit:

Ghast: Str 17, Dex 17, Con -, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 16. Natural Armour +4.

An AD&D Ghast has AC4, just like an Amiq Rasol, so I wouldn't fiddle with the NA to make its 3E armour class exactly match AC16.

These things are fast (18" swim 9"), so Speed: 40 ft., swim 20 ft.

 Two 1d4 claws and a 1d6 bite.

Their SA/SQs don't look very complicated.

_+2 weapons to hit_ 
-> DR 10/magic and silver, like a vampire? Maybe bump it up to DR 15, since vampires only need +1 weapons to hit in AD&D.

_Beguilement_
-> I'd just make it a 3/day charm with a long range.

_Living Appearance_
-> A permanent _alter self_ type effect? I don't think it's a glamer like _disguise self_. There's no mention that anti-illusion spells counter it.

_Energy Drain_
-> 1 negative level per bite, with a note about them wraithifying if they starve.


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2009)

It looks like most of what you suggested matches what we've got in Homebrews, so I think we're basically on the same page.  

I like your recommended DR 10/magic and silver better than just /magic.

I kind of fancy the less standard beguile rather than plain ol' charm.  What do the rest of you think about the charm?

For the living appearance, either of those approaches could work, or simply a bonus on supernatural bonus on Disguise checks (thwarted by true seeing).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 14, 2009)

If it can be seen through with true seeing, why not go for the disguise self?


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## Cleon (Oct 14, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> If it can be seen through with true seeing, why not go for the disguise self?




Well _disguise self_ just a lot easier to see - they still feel, smell and sound like a walking corpse, touching them gives you a save to detect the imposture, a _detect illusion_ would make you suspicious.

I think _alter self_ is a better fit to the description.

Oh, and I still like Vampire-style beguilement 3/day.


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2009)

The problem with alter self, is "You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form."   That allows them to impersonate other undead, but not the living.

My idea of just giving them a racial bonus on Disguise checks won't work, either, since true seeing doesn't penetrate mundane disguises.

So that leaves disguise self, which allows the Will save for interaction.   I don't see a "detect illusion" spell.  Is there a lesser spell that allows you to see through illusions in 3.5?

How about something like this?

Living Disguise (Su):  An amiq rasol is continually affected by a disguise self effect to appear as a living creature.  This grants it a +10 bonus on Disguise checks to appear as a living creature.  A creature that interacts with the amiq rasol may make a DC X Will save to recognize that the amiq rasol is undead, but does not dispel the illusion nor reveal its true appearance.   Only a true seeing effect can see the amiq rasol's true appearance.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Oct 14, 2009)

I'm a bit torn about the beguiling, but I think it's ok.

Living Disguise works for me.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2009)

Living disguise looks good. And I prefer beguilement to charm.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2009)

Updated.

It looks like 2 for beguile, 1 for charm, 1 undecided, so the beguile's have it...for now.



> Amiq rasol can be turned as vampires, except in the actual place of their death, where they cannot be turned at all.




+4 turn resistance and turn immunity within x feet of the place of its death?



> A raise dead spell will slay an amiq rasol permanently, and a resurrection spell will restore the being to life. If slain by other magics or by weapons, it reconstitutes and forms another body within 24 hours.




Rejuvenation, like a ghost?



> Habitat/Society: Amiq rasol are found only near the site of their deaths. They are not tied to the exact spot, particularly if they died at sea, but are always found on islands or on the sea coast near the actual site.






> Whenever an amiq rasol travels more than 100 miles from its place of death, however, it fades away and returns to the spot of its demise. They are partly creatures of the Negative Material Plane and must therefore maintain some contact with it through their habitat.




Something akin to the dryad's tree dependence?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2009)

Rejuvenation and a tweaked tree dependence both sound sensible to me.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2009)

How's this?

Death Site Dependent (Su): An amiq rasol is mystically bound to the site of its demise.  If it ever strays more than 100 miles from it, it is immediately returned to the spot of its death, as if a word of recall had been used. An amiq rasol gains turn immunity while at its death site.

Rejuvenation (Su): An amiq rasol cannot be permanetly destroyed through simple combat: The “destroyed” spirit will restore itself in 24 hours. Even the most powerful spells are usually only temporary solutions. An amiq rasol that would otherwise be destroyed returns to its old haunts with a successful level check (1d20 + amiq rasol's HD) against DC 16. As a rule, the only way to get rid of an amiq rasol for sure is to locate its remains and give them a proper burial.


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2009)

Let's keep the bit that raise dead will destroy it (unlike usual undead).  We can sneak that into rejuvenation, yes?  (And resurrection/true resurrection, as usual, can return them to life.)


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2009)

Sounds good.  That should be an intersting challenge, since it takes 1 minute to cast raise dead, then requires a touch attack, and allows a saving throw!

Updated.

Skills: 60
Vampires have a +8 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. 
Vampire spawn have a +4 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.
Do we want to borrow any of those racial bonuses?

Feats: 4
Vampires gain Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes as bonus feats.
Vampire spawn get Alertness, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes as bonus feats.  Do we want to grant the amiq rasol any of these?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 16, 2009)

Grant Improved Initiative as a bonus feat, give them the +4 to all of those racial bonuses.


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## Cleon (Oct 16, 2009)

Shade said:


> The problem with alter self, is "You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form."   That allows them to impersonate other undead, but not the living.




I don't see that as a problem, since there are several Undead that can look like living creatures (e.g. the Penanngalan, Vampires) as precedent.



> So that leaves disguise self, which allows the Will save for interaction. I don't see a "detect illusion" spell. Is there a lesser spell that allows you to see through illusions in 3.5?



I was talking about AD&D with the _detect illusion_ reference. The spell's in the 1E Player's Handbook and saw a fair amount of use in my early campaigns. I don't think there's an SRD equivalent in 3rd edition.

I don't much like the idea of "Living Disguise" involving a Disguise vs Spot check to tell its undead. I'd prefer it if they had to touch/smell the Amiq Rasol to tell its Undead or use some specialized lore. Something like:*Living Disguise (Su):*  An amiq rasol is under a permanent illusion (glamer) effect which makes it  appear to be a living creature. A Spot check which beats the Amiq Rasol's Disguise check (the Rasol gets a +10 bonus on this check) will reveal it to be some kind of unnatural monster, but not what kind, it requires an additional DC X Knowledge (religion) check to reveal it is an Undead. A creature that touches the amiq rasol may also make a DC X Will save to recognize it is undead. This does not dispel the illusion nor reveal its true appearance.   Only a _true seeing_ effect or entry into an _anti-magic field_ can reveal the amiq rasol's true appearance.  The _detect undead_ spell will also reveal the Rasol's true nature, but not its true appearance.

Creatures with the scent special quality receives a +10 bonus on the above checks to penetrate the amiq rasol's living disguise. 

The save DC is Charisma-based.​


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## Cleon (Oct 16, 2009)

Shade said:


> How's this?
> 
> Death Site Dependent (Su): An amiq rasol is mystically bound to the site of its demise.  If it ever strays more than 100 miles from it, it is immediately returned to the spot of its death, as if a word of recall had been used. An amiq rasol gains turn immunity while at its death site.
> 
> Rejuvenation (Su): An amiq rasol cannot be permanetly destroyed through simple combat: The “destroyed” spirit will restore itself in 24 hours. Even the most powerful spells are usually only temporary solutions. An amiq rasol that would otherwise be destroyed returns to its old haunts with a successful level check (1d20 + amiq rasol's HD) against DC 16. As a rule, the only way to get rid of an amiq rasol for sure is to locate its remains and give them a proper burial.




I like both of those.

The Homebrew's "Beguilement" write up also looks good, except I'm like to to cut the "sonic" from the "This is a sonic, mind-affecting power".


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2009)

Ooh, nice improvement!  I really like the scent bonus.

I'll remove that holdover "sonic" from beguile.

Updated.

Skills: 60 (+4 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks; +8 Swim)

Feats: Improved Initiative (B), 4 more


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## Cleon (Oct 16, 2009)

Shade said:


> Skills: 60
> Vampires have a +8 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.
> Vampire spawn have a +4 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.
> Do we want to borrow any of those racial bonuses?




I'd have the Vampire Spawn's racial bonuses. I was tempted to add +4 racial to Disguise checks, but upon reflection Living Disguise's +10 is ample.

Oh, and I'd like it to have at least some token nautical skills, such as Profession (sailor) to reflect its former existence.



Shade said:


> Feats: 4
> Vampires gain Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes as bonus feats.
> Vampire spawn get Alertness, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes as bonus feats.  Do we want to grant the amiq rasol any of these?




Of those, I'd go for giving it Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative and Lightning Reflexes as bonus feats. I was happy to drop Dodge, since it verges on useless.

For its regular feats, Multiattack and Weapon Focus (bite) seem good choices, as does Combat Reflexes if we decide against having it as a bonus feat.


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2009)

Cleon said:


> I'd have the Vampire Spawn's racial bonuses.




Oops!  I agree with that as well (Demiurge, too), and got the bonuses right in Homebrews.  



Cleon said:


> Oh, and I'd like it to have at least some token nautical skills, such as Profession (sailor) to reflect its former existence.




Good call.



Cleon said:


> Of those, I'd go for giving it Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative and Lightning Reflexes as bonus feats. I was happy to drop Dodge, since it verges on useless.
> 
> For its regular feats, Multiattack and Weapon Focus (bite) seem good choices, as does Combat Reflexes if we decide against having it as a bonus feat.




Those seem perfectly reasonable.


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2009)

That all sounds pretty good.


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2009)

Updated.

Ability Focus (beguile) and Weapon Finesse for the remaining feats?

Organization: Solitary or crew (2–10)?

Treasure: Standard?

Alignment: Always neutral, usually evil?

Advancement: 10-18 HD (Medium)?

Amiq rasol speak any languages they knew in life (usually Common)?


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## Cleon (Oct 19, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Ability Focus (beguile) and Weapon Finesse for the remaining feats?
> 
> ...




That all looks good to me.


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2009)

We're just about finished here.

CR 7?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 19, 2009)

CR 6. They've got nice DR and beguile, but they're pretty squishy, and aren't liable to hit very often in melee.


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2009)

Sounds good.  Finished here?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 20, 2009)

I'm inclined to say "yes"


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2009)

Looks pretty good!


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2009)

Up next we have the Chinese Undead from Dragon Magazine #26 (1979).

These are really small stat blocks, so we should have alot of room for customization.

Let's start with the sea bonze since I could find the most additional information for them.

Type # Appearing AC Move HD  %Lair Treasure
Sea Bonze / 1-6 / 2 / 9" / 6 / 20% / None

*Sea Bonze*
This creature lives underwater and looks like a black man with white lips and eye sockets. It has an ordinary attack of 2 claws 1-3 and bite 1-8, but it prefers to use, three times a day, its Charm breath in a 2 X 1 cone which is effective as soon as it leaves the creature’s lips. Those who fail to save as if against dragon breath must jump over and swim to the Sea Bonze’s lair, a course the dead body will complete if the unfortunate victim is an air breather. Destruction of the Sea Bonze removes the charm. Once at the lair, a still-living victim will wait passively to be eaten. Clerics turn Sea Bonzes as if they were vampires.

CALL-OF-THE-SEA.COM: Myths: Sea-Monsters
Umibozu - Monstropedia - the largest encyclopedia about monsters


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## Cleon (Oct 21, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> CR 6. They've got nice DR and beguile, but they're pretty squishy, and aren't liable to hit very often in melee.




I agree with CR6, they're roughly equivalent to what you'd get if you advanced a standard challenge Rating 4 Vampire Spawn a couple of CRs worth of Hit Dice (assuming you could advance Vamp Spawn, of course).

We're not quite done yet, they don't have a Tactics entry!

Something like:

An amiq rasol often  pretend to be a shipwrecked sailor to get close to its prospective prey. They like to use their Bluff skill or Beguile power to try to lure away a victim from their companions, hoping to pick off intruders one on one. They also like to use ambush tactics, and will be extremely familiar with the terrain around their lair.


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## Cleon (Oct 21, 2009)

Shade said:


> *Sea Bonze*
> This creature lives underwater and looks like a black man with white lips and eye sockets. It has an ordinary attack of 2 claws 1-3 and bite 1-8, but it prefers to use, three times a day, its Charm breath in a 2 X 1 cone which is effective as soon as it leaves the creature’s lips. Those who fail to save as if against dragon breath must jump over and swim to the Sea Bonze’s lair, a course the dead body will complete if the unfortunate victim is an air breather. Destruction of the Sea Bonze removes the charm. Once at the lair, a still-living victim will wait passively to be eaten. Clerics turn Sea Bonzes as if they were vampires.




I know there's a long Asian tradition of ghouls with jet black skin, but the mention of "white lips and eye sockets" makes me imagine an undead aquatic *Al Jolson in blackface*, which is presumably not the intended effect.

*Ahem*

So, let's see. Its D&D stats are AC2, 6 Hit Dice, Speed 9", 1-8/1-3/1-3 claw/bite/bite, no treasure, charm breath 3/day.
20% in lair

Not a lot to go on there, but its a start.

Speed 20 ft, AC around 18, 1d8 bite and 2 1d3 claws.

So, what type are these creatures? They look as much like a Monstrous Humanoid or a natural Outsider than an Undead to me. We'd need to give them the grave-touched trait if we decide we want them to be Outsiders, so they still get that "turned as Vampires".

The "Call of the Sea" article says they have tremendous Strength and can capsize ships. The monstropedia version says they're of giant size, and may have tentacles, while the _Dragon _magazine version describes a man-shaped and man-sized being.

So, is it a shapechanger which can assume the form of humanoid or a giant octopus/squid with a huge, half-humanoid head, or do we stat up two versions, a regular and a giant Umibozu?

Hmm, I think I like the idea of doing a regular humanoid variety and a more powerful shapechanging form with the Dragon Turtle's capsize power. We could call the greater version a "Sea Abbot".

Do some or all Sea Bonze have spellcasting? "Bonze" does mean monk, although it could just a reference to their appearance, we could say some gain levels in cleric.

The charm breath is an interesting power. We can use a rewrite of the Harpy's Captivating Song. Dragon Breath is one of the toughest saves in AD&D, so it may have a racial bonus to its DC.


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2009)

Yeah, two critters makes the most sense.   When I was looking for information, the Umibozu sounded like a separate, gigantic critter.  I picture the sea bonze more as undead, aquatic monks.


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2009)

Shall we do the humanoid-size undead monk/cleric first then?


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2009)

Sure!


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2009)

A 6th level monk has... 

3 monk bonus feats, flurry of blows, 1d8 unarmed strike, evasion, fast movement +10 ft., +1 AC bonus, still mind, Ki strike (magic), purity of body, and slow fall 30 ft. 

We can drop purity of body and still mind, since undead are already immune to disease and mind-affecting spells and abilities.


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 22, 2009)

According to the DMG,  a level 6 NPC monk has the following ability scores: Str 14 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 15 Chr 8

As an undead, it won't have Constitution.  It should probably have a higher Charisma though.


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2009)

Agreed, probably on par with Wis.

Researching further...

Sea monk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bishop-fish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (sea bishop)

...it looks like we might have four different creatures on our hands!

Sea Bonze = undead aquatic monk
Sea Monk = magical beast?  aberration?
Sea Bishop = monstrous humanoid?  fey?
Umibozu = Huge (or larger) shipwrecking undead


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 23, 2009)

The article "Opening the Book of Beasts" from Dragon #199 has statistics for sea bishop/monks.


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2009)

Ahh...excellent!


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Slow fall seemed kind of pointless underwater, so I dropped it.



> Bonus Feat: At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.




Which of these bonus feats shall we select for sea bonze?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2009)

How about Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes and Improved Disarm?


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## Cleon (Oct 24, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> How about Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes and Improved Disarm?




Those are OK by me.

I wouldn't mind them getting Improved Grapple as one of their regular feats, it'd be useful for dragging victims down to the bottom. I'd probably go Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) and Lightning Reflexes for the other two.


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## freyar (Oct 25, 2009)

Let's not forget their breath weapon!  Do we want to go with charm monster as the effect or stick to the original text, which is basically beguile?


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## Cleon (Oct 25, 2009)

freyar said:


> Let's not forget their breath weapon!  Do we want to go with charm monster as the effect or stick to the original text, which is basically beguile?




My proposal was modifying a Harpy's Captivating Song, something like:*Mesmerising Breath (Su):* Three times a day, a sea bonze can breathe a 20 foot cone of hypnotic gas. All creatures within the area must succeed on a DC X Will save or become captivated. This is a mind-affecting charm effect. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same sea bonze’s breath for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based [and includes a +X racial bonus?]. 

A mesmerised victim dives towards the sea bonze's lair, taking the most direct route available. The creature gets a second saving throw if the path leads into a danger (through a shark feeding frenzy, a bed of venomous corals and the like), which means the victim gets a second saving throw if (when) they run out of air. Captivated creatures can take no actions other than to defend themselves. (Thus, a fighter cannot run away or attack but takes no defensive penalties.) Once they reach the sea bonze's lair, the victim stands there and offers no resistance to the monster’s attacks. The effect normally lasts X minutes, but ends immediately if the sea bonze dies or releases its victim.​


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## freyar (Oct 25, 2009)

Pretty much exactly what I was thinking, except I thought we've been calling that ability beguile for one of the other undead recently.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 25, 2009)

It was beguile for the amiq rasol.


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## Cleon (Oct 27, 2009)

freyar said:


> Pretty much exactly what I was thinking, except I thought we've been calling that ability beguile for one of the other undead recently.




So call it Beguiling Breath then?

There's something pleasantly alliterative about that. "_Brought down to their doom by the Bonze's beguiling breath_".


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## freyar (Oct 27, 2009)

Cleon said:


> So call it Beguiling Breath then?
> 
> There's something pleasantly alliterative about that. "_Brought down to their doom by the Bonze's beguiling breath_".



  Sounds good to me!


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2009)

Consider me beguiled.  

Updated.

Suggested duration?

Racial bonus on Ability Focus?


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## freyar (Oct 27, 2009)

I'm not sure it needs a racial bonus, especially if we give it ability focus.  1 or 2 minutes?


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2009)

I meant an "or" there!     Ability Focus should suffice.


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## Cleon (Oct 28, 2009)

Shade said:


> Consider me beguiled.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> ...




I feel its duration should either be pretty long (long enough to drown, say around 10 minutes) or the Bonze can sustain it somehow - maybe it normally lasts 1 minute, but the bonze can chant "hell-sutras" that extend its duration (standard action, extends any existing beguilement by 1 minute to any victim within X feet, sonic mind-affecting charm effect?).

I don't mind dropping the racial bonus if we think we can afford Ability Focus.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2009)

Hmmm...

10 minutes does sound good for the base.

Beyond that, why not just let a second does of breath stack with the first (rather than supercede its duration)?  That would be a bit simpler than adding another ability to work with the first.


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## freyar (Oct 28, 2009)

I'll agree to that.  Stacking multiple breaths is a clean, simple idea.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 36
Selecting from the monk’s class skills, Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Knowledge (religion), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim, and Tumble seem the most appropriate options.

Organization: Solitary or x (2–6)  [x="cloister"? "abbey"?]

Treasure: Standard?

Alignment: Always lawful evil?

Advancement: By character class (as monk)?

Sea bonze are x feet tall and weigh x pounds.


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## Cleon (Oct 30, 2009)

Shade said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> 10 minutes does sound good for the base.
> 
> Beyond that, why not just let a second does of breath stack with the first (rather than supercede its duration)?  That would be a bit simpler than adding another ability to work with the first.




Yes, that's a reasonable solution. 10 minutes per breath then, with an additional Will save as each duration runs out?

I quite like the idea of them chanting hell-sutras though, but it'd be easy enough to use that as flavour for those sea bonze with clerical spell-casting.

EDIT: I think the current description is a bit vague though, I'd prefer some additional explanation. There was also a typo of "applicatons" I've fixed. e.g.:*Beguiling Breath (Su):* Three times a day, a sea bonze can breathe a 20-foot cone of hypnotic gas. All creatures within the area must succeed on a DC 17 Will save or become beguiled. This is a mind-affecting charm effect. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same sea bonze’s breath for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.

A beguiled victim dives towards the sea bonze's lair, taking the most direct route available. The creature gets a second saving throw if the path leads into a danger (through a shark feeding frenzy, a bed of venomous corals and the like), which means the victim gets a second saving throw if (when) they run out of air. Captivated creatures can take no actions other than to defend themselves. (Thus, a fighter cannot run away or attack but takes no defensive penalties.) Once they reach the sea bonze's lair, the victim stands there and offers no resistance to the monster’s attacks. The effect normally lasts 10 minutes, but ends immediately if the sea bonze dies or releases its victim.

Multiple applications of beguiling breath stack their durations rather than the most recent superceding the previous application. Thus, a victim who failed their saving throw against two beguiling breaths would be beguiled for 20 minutes.​


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## Cleon (Oct 30, 2009)

Shade said:


> Skills: 36
> Selecting from the monk’s class skills, Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Knowledge (religion), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim, and Tumble seem the most appropriate options.



Escape Artist, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot and Tumble seem the most suitable skills to put points in. They may resemble monks, but I suspect they don't all know much (if anything) about religion, and Balance and Sense Motive would seem to have limited utility.

Six skill points in each?
Escape Artist *6*, Hide* 6*, Listen* 6*, Move Silently* 6*, Spot* 6*, Tumble * 6.*​


Shade said:


> Organization: Solitary or x (2–6)  [x="cloister"? "abbey"?][/quote]
> 
> How about "cloister" for a group of regular sea bonze, and "abbey" for a group led by a sea abbot (aka Greater Sea Bonze)?
> 
> ...




The alignment and treasure look fine. I'd think a typical sea bonze would be small-average human size - say 5 to 6 feet tall, 150-200 pounds.

I'm split between having them advance by character class (cleric or monk) or by Hit Dice, eventually becoming a giant sea abbot once they gain enough Undead HD.

Maybe both?:
*Advancement:* 7-12 HD (Medium); 13-18 HD (Large); 19+HD (Sea Abbot) or by character class (usually cleric or monk)​


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2009)

Updated.

We still need a swim speed.  30 feet?

When you say "giant sea abbot", are you referring to the umibozu?  I'm not really convinced they need to be the same creature in a "chain".   How exactly does one "grow" to become an umibozu?


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2009)

I think I'd kind of like the umibozo to be kept separate, but I could see an advanced sea bonze being called a sea abbot.  Maybe they have some class levels, like the mummy lord in the SRD.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 31, 2009)

Agreed to keeping the umibozu seperate.


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## Cleon (Oct 31, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> We still need a swim speed.  30 feet?




Swim 30 feet is fine by me.



Shade said:


> When you say "giant sea abbot", are you referring to the umibozu?  I'm not really convinced they need to be the same creature in a "chain".   How exactly does one "grow" to become an umibozu?




Well obviously they'd swell to an immense size and sprout tentacles with suspiciously suggestive shapes. Going by some of the anime films I've seen, that's quite a common phenomena among Japanese monsters.

Although I'm fine with keeping them as separate monsters.


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2009)

CR 6?  They're essentially 6th-level monks, with some of the monk abilities traded off for undead traits.



freyar said:


> I think I'd kind of like the umibozo to be kept separate, but I could see an advanced sea bonze being called a sea abbot.  Maybe they have some class levels, like the mummy lord in the SRD.




I like this approach.  10th-level monks?

Organization: Solitary, cloister (2–6), or abbey (x-x plus one sea abbot)
Challenge Rating: x


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## freyar (Nov 2, 2009)

30 ft swim speed is fine.

10 level monk for the abbot is good.  Let's give the abbey 4-12.  CR 6 is fine.


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2009)

Updated, and included the sea abbot, for which we'll need 3 more feats, 40 monk skill ranks, and 3 ability score increases.


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## Cleon (Nov 3, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated, and included the sea abbot, for which we'll need 3 more feats, 40 monk skill ranks, and 3 ability score increases.




Is Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) legal? That would give it a 3d6 unarmed strike. I'd also think Lightning Reflexes and Deflect Arrows would be good picks.

As for the skills, increasing Balance, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Tumble would be my preference - 5 more in Balance, 7 more in each of the others?

As for the Ability increases, I'm thinking +2 Dex and +1 Wisdom is the most effective pick, although there is something to be said for +3 Wisdom.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 4, 2009)

Imp. Natural Attack (unarmed strike) is totally legal.


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## Shade (Nov 4, 2009)

That all sounds good to me.

Updated.


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## Cleon (Nov 4, 2009)

Shade said:


> That all sounds good to me.
> 
> Updated.




I notice it's missing some of a 10th level monk's SQs. I can understand cutting its Purity of Body and Still Mind, since it's already immune to disease and mind-affecting attacks, but there's nothing to stop it using the healing from Wholeness of Body.


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## Shade (Nov 4, 2009)

Hmm...I was assuming it was positive energy (and therefore harmful to the sea abbot), but it isn't spelled out.   Odd.   I'll add it and leave it up to the DM to fight the contradiction.  

Updated.


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## freyar (Nov 5, 2009)

Looks pretty good!


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## Leopold (Nov 5, 2009)

6 of these bastards to go!


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2009)

Ready for the Umibozu?

Gargantuan undead?

Ramming ability of the ocean strider?  Capsize of dragon turtle?  Both?


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2009)

Let's go umibozo!  Definitely Gargantuan.  Perhaps both abilities, but I'm mostly feeling capsize.

Don't forget this page.  I really love the picture.


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2009)

Hit Dice and Ability scores of other Gargantuan undead...

Nightcrawler:  25 HD, Str 48, Dex 10, Con —, Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 18
Ulgurstasta: 17 HD, Str 28, Dex 15, Con —, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 19
Necronaut:  32 HD, Str 41, Dex 8, Con —, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 16


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2009)

Gee, I guess I'd say in the 20-23HD range, but that's totally arbitrary and definitely open to discussion.


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## Cleon (Nov 10, 2009)

Shade said:


> Hit Dice and Ability scores of other Gargantuan undead...
> 
> Nightcrawler:  25 HD, Str 48, Dex 10, Con —, Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 18
> Ulgurstasta: 17 HD, Str 28, Dex 15, Con —, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 19
> Necronaut:  32 HD, Str 41, Dex 8, Con —, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 16




I was thinking of basing its stats on a Kraken or a Giant Squid advanced to Gargantuan:

Kraken: 20 HD, Str 34, Dex 10, Con 29, Int 21, Wis 20, Cha 20
Gargantuan Squid: HD 19, Str 34, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2

Say, use the Giant Squid's physical abilities and the Kraken's mental abilities but drop the Intelligence to Ogre-level, since they can be fooled by that empty barrel ploy, and maybe cut the Wisdom a tad:

Umibozu: 20 HD, Str 34, Dex 15, Con -, Int 7, Wis 20, Cha 20


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Do we want to give 'em any monklike abilities?

Slam attacks or unarmed strikes?


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## freyar (Nov 10, 2009)

I see that an extra 2HD snuck in there.   But it looks good so far.

I'd say slams, but some kind of monk abilities would be good.  Stunning slams or something.


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2009)

That works for me.

We might borrow any or all of this from the similarly-sized sea titan...

Capsize (Ex): A submerged sea titan that surfaces under a boat or ship less than 30 feet long capsizes the vessel 95% of the time. It has a 50% chance to capsize a vessel from 30 to 80 feet long and a 20% chance to capsize one over 80 feet long. 

Constrict Ship (Ex): Instead of crushing a ship with its tail, a sea titan can wrap its muscular arms around all but the largest ships and crush them or drag them below the waves automatically. This can be done to rowboats (1 round), keelboats (3 rounds), longships (5 rounds), and sailing ships (10 rounds). Warships and galleys are too large for a sea titan to affect in this way. 

Crushing Blow (Ex): A sea titan can use its tail flukes to smash a boat to splinters. The ship is hit automatically once every 10 rounds, taking tail smash damage (between attacks the sea titan is submerged). The ship's pilot must make a Reflex saving throw (DC 20) after each hit to keep the vessel from being breached and sinking in 1d10 minutes. Apply a modifier to the DC based on the type of ship: rowboat +4, keelboat +2, sailing ship or longship +0, warship -3, galley -5. Regardless of the ship's saving throw result, characters aboard the ship must make Reflex saving throws (DC 20); a successful save means the character takes 1d4 points of damage; on a failed save, a character on deck is hurled overboard and a character belowdecks takes 2d4 points of damage.


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

I'm not sure these have tails for constricting, but I like some variant on crushing blow!


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2009)

Yeah, no tail.  But something like "quivering palm vs. hull" could represent it.


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

Shade said:


> Yeah, no tail.  But something like "quivering palm vs. hull" could represent it.



I still think that sounds more like crushing blow than constrict ship!


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2009)

You are correct.  I got my abilities confused.  

How's this?

Crushing Blow (Ex): As a full-round action, an umibozu can set up vibrations within the hull of a boat, then smash the vessel to splinters. The ship is hit automatically, taking slam damage. The ship's pilot must make a Reflex saving throw (DC 20) after each hit to keep the vessel from being breached and sinking in 1d10 minutes. Apply a modifier to the DC based on the type of ship: rowboat +4, keelboat +2, sailing ship or longship +0, warship -3, galley -5. Regardless of the ship's saving throw result, characters aboard the ship must make Reflex saving throws (DC 20); a successful save means the character takes 1d4 points of damage; on a failed save, a character on deck is hurled overboard and a character belowdecks takes 2d4 points of damage.


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## Cleon (Nov 11, 2009)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




I still have serious doubts about making these chaps Undead. They're Yokai, so I think they are more goblin-spirit than damned soul. Maybe Outsider or a Magical Beast with the Spirit subtype from the 3rd edition version of _Oriental Adventures_?



Shade said:


> Do we want to give 'em any monklike abilities?
> 
> Slam attacks or unarmed strikes?




One word.

*Tentacles!*

How about 8 tentacle-slams, with the Stunning Fist (monk version) and Deflect Arrows feats? Maybe Improved Grab and Constrict?

A Gargantuan 20th level monk would do 6d8 damage per unarmed strike, since a Large 20th level monk does 4d8, but only gets 5 attacks with flurry of blows. A Kraken has 2 tentacles for 2d8+Str, 6 arms for 1d6+half, plus a 4d6+half beak, but a Gargantuan Giant Squid has 10 tentacles for 1d8+Str and a 3d8+half bite.

I think it'd be easier just to give it 2d10 or 4d8 damage like a standard or oversized 20th+ level Monk.


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## Cleon (Nov 11, 2009)

Shade said:


> You are correct.  I got my abilities confused.
> 
> How's this?
> 
> Crushing Blow (Ex): As a full-round action, an umibozu can set up vibrations within the hull of a boat, then smash the vessel to splinters. The ship is hit automatically, taking slam damage. The ship's pilot must make a Reflex saving throw (DC 20) after each hit to keep the vessel from being breached and sinking in 1d10 minutes. Apply a modifier to the DC based on the type of ship: rowboat +4, keelboat +2, sailing ship or longship +0, warship -3, galley -5. Regardless of the ship's saving throw result, characters aboard the ship must make Reflex saving throws (DC 20); a successful save means the character takes 1d4 points of damage; on a failed save, a character on deck is hurled overboard and a character belowdecks takes 2d4 points of damage.




The "then smash the vessel to splinters" doesn't fit the start of the first sentence, and I think it's better to state the damage. I'd suggest:
Crushing Blow (Ex): As a full-round action, an umibozu can set up vibrations within the hull of a boat that can split its hull asunder. The ship is hit automatically, taking XdY+Z slam damage. The ship's pilot must make a Reflex saving throw (DC 20) after each hit to keep the vessel from being breached and sinking in 1d10 minutes. Apply a modifier to the DC based on the type of ship: rowboat +4, keelboat +2, sailing ship or longship +0, warship -3, galley -5. Regardless of the ship's saving throw result, characters aboard the ship must make Reflex saving throws (DC 20); a successful save means the character takes 1d4 points of damage; on a failed save, a character on deck is hurled overboard and a character belowdecks takes 2d4 points of damage.
​


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

I think the pilot should make a Profession (sailing) check instead of a Ref save, and I think all the DCs should be Str-dependent.

Some number of tentacle slams sounds good, though I might go with 4 or 6 just so as not to step on the octopus's toes.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 12, 2009)

Agreed to the Profession check instead of a Reflex save for a pilot. And I agree to only four tentacle slams.


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2009)

Updated.

Stunning fist only works with unarmed strikes, so let's just give it a stun special ability, like this...

Stunning Strike (Ex): Any creature struck with a critical hit by a zeuglodon's tail slam must make a DC 31 Fortitude saving throw or be stunned for 2d4 rounds by the force of the blow. The save DC is Strength-based.

Or this...

Stunning Strike (Ex): Any creature that is critically hit by a glacierdrak's bite or claw attack must make a DC 50 Fortitude saving throw or be stunned for 2d6 rounds. The save DC is Strength-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 13, 2009)

Drop the duration of the stun to 1d4 rounds, perhaps. Make it struck by two or more tentacles? Sort of a stunning rend?


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## freyar (Nov 13, 2009)

Depends on how tough these should be.  They do have 22HD, so I'd say only 1 tentacle needed if we drop the duration.


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## Cleon (Nov 13, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> And I agree to only four tentacle slams.




Could I persuade you to make it six slams, in honour of the fearsome *Harryhausen Hexapus*?



Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Stunning fist only works with unarmed strikes, so let's just give it a stun special ability, like this...
> 
> ...




Stunning Strike as a SA works for me, but I'd prefer it to be closer to the Stunning Fist feat, especially having it occur more often than once per critical. How about:*Stunning Strike (Ex):* Any creature that is struck by an Umibozu's tentacle slam must make a DC 26 Fortitude saving throw or be stunned for 1 round (until just before the Umibozu's next action), or for 1d4 rounds on a critical hit. The duration of multiple Stunning Strikes is not cumulative. Creatures immune to critical hits can not be stunned by this attack. The save DC is Wisdom-based.​You'll notice I've changed the controlling ability to Wisdom, like Stunning Fist.


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## freyar (Nov 13, 2009)

That looks like an MST3K movie, so I'll have to go for 6 tentacles just on that basis!

I could go with either form of stunning strike, but Cleon's is definitely more monkish.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 14, 2009)

I like the six tentacles, but I have to say I prefer the stun on two or more tentacle hits. With it being always on, and getting 6 attacks a round, it could easily stun entire parties unless they all had freedom of movement up (or does that not protect against stunning?).


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## freyar (Nov 14, 2009)

How about on a single critical hit?  I guess if it doesn't require a critical, I'll agree to a rend-like behavior.


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## Cleon (Nov 14, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I like the six tentacles, but I have to say I prefer the stun on two or more tentacle hits. With it being always on, and getting 6 attacks a round, it could easily stun entire parties unless they all had freedom of movement up (or does that not protect against stunning?).




I don't think Freedom of Movement protects against stunning, I believe you need an effect that resists critical hits or specific stun-resistance.

Anyhow, I'd accept two or more tentacle hits for the Stun, although I don't mind the roll per hit. If we do go for 2+ strikes I would still like to allow for a critical hit - maybe two regular strikes or a critical?

Something like:*Stunning Strike (Ex):* Any creature struck with a critical hit by an Umibozu's tentacle-slam, or hit by two or more tentacle-slams in the same round, must make a DC 26 Fortitude saving throw or be stunned for 1 round (until just before the Umibozu's next action), or for 1d4 rounds on a critical hit. The duration of multiple Stunning Strikes is not cumulative. Creatures immune to critical hits can not be stunned by this attack. The save DC is Wisdom-based.
​


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## freyar (Nov 15, 2009)

I think I'd rather have it be with 2 hits or a single critical.  One or the other, not both.  It's getting a bit messy, and most monsters do use that kind of either/or that we're talking about.


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## Cleon (Nov 15, 2009)

freyar said:


> I think I'd rather have it be with 2 hits or a single critical.  One or the other, not both.  It's getting a bit messy, and most monsters do use that kind of either/or that we're talking about.




Well I'll leave it up to you lot as to whether to go double-tap or critical, especially as I still prefer the original single-hit stunning.


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2009)

Wow, we're all over the board on our opinions on this!

I don't care for Wis-based on the tentacles.  I know monks and stunning fist use it, but this also doesn't use unarmed strikes, so it isn't very monklike anyway.  The Wis-based DC will just be too low for a creature of its power.

If we limit it to stunning for 1 round, then I'm fine with it doing it on every hit.  If we go with the more appropriate for its CR 2d4 or 2d6 rounds, then I could see limiting it to the rendlike 2 hit format.  If we limit it to critical hits, let's make the duration heavy.


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## freyar (Nov 16, 2009)

Let's drop the Wis DC and go for 2d4 rounds on a rend-like double hit.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 17, 2009)

Agreed with freyar.


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2009)

Updated.

Any other SAs or SQs?


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## Cleon (Nov 17, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Any other SAs or SQs?




Well Yokai commonly have the ability to become invisible or intangible, and there's many mentions of the Umiboze "rising suddenly out of the water" (presumably with no one being able to see it beforehand). 

So, maybe it can assume a Watery Form, like a _gaseous form_ except it can Swim at full speed and must stay in contact with seawater, and if it is completely immersed in water it is effectively invisible?


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## freyar (Nov 18, 2009)

We gave something a similar ability.  Let me see: from the undine, we have

Water Transparency (Ex): An undine's transparent body grants it total concealment underwater. 

Sound about right?  I'm not sure if it needs a gaseous form SA or not.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 18, 2009)

I don't like it. Umibozu are giant rubbery things with no mentioned powers of invisibility. They're surprising when they rise out of the water and attack your ship, but krakens, sea serpents, etc don't have any invisibility powers. Keep 'em visible, I say!


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## Shade (Nov 18, 2009)

Gotta go with Demiurge here.  It's always surprising when a massive monstrosity surfaces beneath or next to your ship!

Here's a little more on umibozu...

UmibÅzu ~ æµ·åŠä¸»ã€€ï¼ˆã†ã¿ã¼ã†ãšï¼‰ ~ part of The Obakemono Project: An Online Encylopedia of YÅkai and Bakemono
Umibōzu Totally Explained
The Mystery of the Sea Clergy « Dr. Donald Ryles-Paranormal,Alternative,Celebrity,Strange, & More-NEWS BLOG

Based on that, I think we're pretty much done with special abilties.  It sounds like strong support for ranks in Intimidate.

Skills: Intimidate 25, 25 more ranks

Feats: 8 (1 can be epic)


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## freyar (Nov 18, 2009)

I'm convinced, no invisibility.  But we could put some of those ranks in Hide, though maybe Spot is a better use for them.  

Aim for Overwhelming Critical as the epic feat?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 19, 2009)

Overwhelming Critical would lock in feats for Power Attack, Imp. Crit, Weapon Focus, Great Cleave and Cleave. But the +1d6 damage isn't all that impressive--Overwhelming Critical is only good if it's a prereq for Devestating Critical. So that leaves us with... Fast Healing for the epic feat? Penetrate Damage Reduction (adamantine)?


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2009)

I like the Penetrate Damage Reduction (adamantine) option, allowing it rip apart anything it encounters.   Along those same lines, I can definitely see Improved Sunder as one of the regular feats.  Awesome Blow seems appropriate as well.


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## freyar (Nov 19, 2009)

Actually, do many critters have DR X/adamantine?  Because Penetrate Damage Reduction doesn't grant other qualities of the material, meaning it wouldn't help bypass hardness.  But Improved Sunder is a good idea.

Ok, then: Awesome Blow, Power Attack, Improved Sunder, ????


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2009)

Good point.   You probably won't find many golems on board ships.

I'd suggest Epic Sunder, but alas it requires Epic Prowess as a bonus feat.


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## freyar (Nov 20, 2009)

And unfortunately Snatch requires claws or a bite. 

What about Imp Init and Superior Init?  That would leave 3 more regular feats.


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## Cleon (Nov 20, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Overwhelming Critical would lock in feats for Power Attack, Imp. Crit, Weapon Focus, Great Cleave and Cleave. But the +1d6 damage isn't all that impressive--Overwhelming Critical is only good if it's a prereq for Devestating Critical. So that leaves us with... Fast Healing for the epic feat? Penetrate Damage Reduction (adamantine)?




Don't much care for Overwhelming Critical or Penetrate Damage Resistance, not much bang for the buck.

Fast Healing seems a good pick.

I'd fancy Exceptional Deflection (assuming we're giving it Deflect Arrows already), except it doesn't have the Dex prerequisite.


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2009)

I don't like giving non-unique creatures Damage Reduction of Fast Healing feats; it makes more sense to just simply give them one of those common monster abilities rather than burning a feat slot on it.

I share your disappointment for Exceptional Deflection.  

How about Dire Charge?  That would allow it to approach the vessel and make a full attack?


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## freyar (Nov 20, 2009)

No one like Superior Init?  Well, that's ok.  Imp Init and Dire Charge is good idea, though.  I'd support that.


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2009)

I have no problem with Superior Initiative, but I didn't really get a "strike first" vibe from these guys.


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## freyar (Nov 20, 2009)

Yeah, I think Dire Charge is probably the best option.  In that case, 

Awesome Blow, Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Improved Initiative, Improved Critical (tentacle), Lightning Reflexes, Cleave?, and Dire Charge.  I don't mind changing some of these, esp Cleave.


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2009)

Nor do I, although that list is perfectly acceptable as-is.


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## Cleon (Nov 21, 2009)

freyar said:


> Yeah, I think Dire Charge is probably the best option.  In that case,
> 
> Awesome Blow, Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Improved Initiative, Improved Critical (tentacle), Lightning Reflexes, Cleave?, and Dire Charge.  I don't mind changing some of these, esp Cleave.




Dire Charge works for me, too.

I'd suggest changing Cleave for Combat Reflexes, since it's got Dex 15 and a 20 foot reach Reach an extra AoO per round could be handy.


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## Shade (Nov 23, 2009)

Updated.

Turn resistance?  If so, how much?

Organization: Solitary?

Challenge Rating: 11-13?  They are slightly deadlier than ulgurstasta (CR 11), although the Con drain breath weapon might balance them out.  They are far weaker than necronaut (CR 14).

Treasure: Standard?

Alignment: Always lawful evil?

Advancement: 23-44 HD (Gargantuan); 45-66 HD (Colossal)?

Umibozu stand 40 feet tall and weigh 18 tons? 

Umibozu speak x.


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## freyar (Nov 23, 2009)

With 22 HD, I don't know if they need turn resistance (nightshades don't have it), but we did give the sea bonze +4.  How about +2 turn resistance?

Give them improved grab and constrict, and I'd say they're about the same as the CR 12 kraken.  As is, they're probably a tough 11 or a weak 12.

Common?

The rest seems good.


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## Shade (Nov 23, 2009)

I'd prefer the lower CR rather than making them more akin to kraken, but I'm open to suggestions.


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## freyar (Nov 23, 2009)

Let's just go CR 11, if everyone else agrees with that.


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## Cleon (Nov 24, 2009)

freyar said:


> With 22 HD, I don't know if they need turn resistance (nightshades don't have it), but we did give the sea bonze +4.  How about +2 turn resistance?
> 
> Give them improved grab and constrict, and I'd say they're about the same as the CR 12 kraken.  As is, they're probably a tough 11 or a weak 12.
> 
> ...




I'm feeling Challenge Rating 11.

I'd be tempted not to give them a weight, since neither a Kraken or Giant Squid has one and I still imagine Umibozu as being half-ephemeral spirit beings.

I'd like to expand the languages a bit - Aquan, Common and Infernal?


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2009)

All good.

Updated.

Finished?


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## freyar (Nov 24, 2009)

Looks good!


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2009)

Thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 posts.

See continuation here and here.


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