# Gamehackery: Virtual Table Top Solutions



## Hussar

As someone who's spent a lot of hours on VTT gaming, I second pretty much everything that's said here.  

There are a bajillion options out there for every element you want.  Chat, whether VoIP or text based, die rollers, map clients, whatever.  It really is a buyer's market.  That being said, it will take a while to find the one you like best.  They've all got pros and cons.

One point about Voice Chat vs Text.  I honestly find it easier to stay in character in text mode.  Maybe it's that you can take that extra second and a half to compose text versus just trying to talk, but, I do find character immersion a bit better when you stick to text.  But, OTOH, voice chat is a heck of a lot faster.    Depends on people's typing speed.


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## Radiating Gnome

I like to take advantage of macros in Maptools to pre-program some catch phrases and other in-character dialog -- but even just having some stuff your character says frequently in word or notepad  handy for a quick cut and paste can speed up the text-based dialo

-rg


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## Texicles

roll20 seems to be one to keep an eye on, and it's worth mentioning that it operates independently of Google+ Hangouts.

For such a, relatively, new VTT, the features are impressive, the UI is slick, and the pace of development bodes well for the future. It took me a couple of days of poking and prodding, to suss out what roll20 can do, but that was all it took for me to go from a fan of MapTools to seriously considering a subscription to roll20.


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## Sword of Spirit

I'm using iTabletop because of its integrated video chat and non-mechanical premise. I basically want a VTT that is exactly that. I don't need it to roll dice for me, or record spell effects, or track my campaign. All I need is a "place" to meet my scattered friends and play as if we were physicaly there. The one thing I would like to see that I haven't seen anywhere is a truly robust set of integrated drag and drop resources, such as monster and NPC tokens that cover an entire SRD or a list of animals and NPC archetypes. I'd also really like generic background maps for when you want "temperate forest" or "cold mountain", or "urban streets." If someone sold a comprehensive set of such resources all together--without too many holes, I'd buy it. That's what would add to my tabletop experience and make it quicker than using an arrangement of minis and drawings on a table, rather than something that requires work out of me to get it useful.


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## smiteworks

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I'd like to share what most of the Fantasy Grounds users prefer.  Most users combine a mix of text chat and Skype for voice chat.  Within FG, you can prepare boxed text or spoken text and share this easily with the players when it is appropriate, change chat "speakers" to whoever you need to at the moment or have it automatically assign a speaker based on who's turn it is in the combat initiative.  I personally find this useful to allow the current NPC to sprinkle in an insult here or there as they attack the players.  As others have said, it helps maintain the mood a little better than voice if you aren't in the mood to voice act.


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## heruca

This article brings to mind the "Guide to Choosing a Virtual Tabletop" that I wrote a while back.

A curious (I would say glaring) omission here is any mention whatsoever of Battlegrounds: RPG Edition, one of the leading commercial VTT programs.

Although is has been around for a while, Battlegrounds is still constantly being updated. The latest update, v1.8b, was just released a few days ago.


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## Hussar

My only beef with Battlegrounds in the licensing.  The fact that the DM get's charged double for a license is not fair IMO.  Yes, I realize that the DM license has more options, but, you cannot have a game without a DM.  So, essentially, the DM is paying double to sell extra licenses to his players.  And I do not think that that is fair.


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## heruca

Hmmm. It hardly seems fair to single out Battlegrounds for this licensing model. Have a look at the licensing on the other commercial VTTs in comparison to Battlegrounds. See a pattern?

The vast majority of tech support requests comes from GMs; players hardly ever need it. Tech support requires time, and time equals money. It's only logical that a GM, who will require more of your time, be charged more money (i.e., one doesn't just pay more for the software itself, they pay more for a service). Not to mention that, at least in the case of Battlegrounds, the GM Client software is WAY more full-featured than the Player Client (it can even be used to host & play boardgames, wargames, card games, and dice games).

All that aside, I think you also missed out on the fact that with BRPG, the GM Client actually includes not one but _two_ licenses, since some GMs like to prepare their games on, say, a desktop PC, but run their games on a different computer (say, a laptop).

The only other common licensing for commercial VTTs is to make it subscription-based, and RPGers in particular seem to be pretty dead-set against subscription schemes. SceneGrinder tried it, and Ghost Orb before that. Both quickly went out of business. iTabletop _used to be_ subscription-based, but they (wisely) switched to a one-time fee lest they suffer the same fate. Heck, even WotC took a lot of flack for requiring a subscription to DDI in order to have access to their VTT.

Out of curiosity, does it also bother you that with most RPG systems, the DM's Guide costs more than the Player's Handbook (which is typically half as thick)? Does that seem unfair to you, given that the GM is the one "doing all the hard work"?


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## Hussar

Heruca, we've had this conversation before.  It is not going to go anywhere.

That other VTT's also gouge the DM's out there is not really the point is it?  No, I don't agree with them either.  

The fact that you limit your software that if I put the client on one computer, I cannot actually transfer it to more than one other computer is hardly a good thing.  What if I want to use three computers?  

To me, it's no different than a game producer trying to charge extra money so you can host an online game of whatever that game is.  

As far as the DMG costing more, I'd point out two things.  1.  The DMG isn't required to play D&D, and hasn't been since at least 3e.  2.  The DMG is an entirely different product.  You cannot produce the players client without first producing the DM's client.  If the PHB was simply a stripped down DMG, then yes, I would have the same problem with it as well.  Fortunately, virtually nothing in the DMG is produced in the PHB so, I'm actually getting added value.

The DM's client does not provide any added value IMO.


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## Evenglare

Not sure why roll20.net was featured in OP's post as a google + addon. It's its own site with a fantastic community. Honestly it's the best VTT I have ever played with. /2 cents


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## Nojo509

Any advice for a mixed group? 3 local, 2 remote? I want the remote players to feel like they are at the table, and the locals to feel like they get to know the remotes. I'm running Ashen Stars (Gumshoe), no minis.

I've tried Google Hangouts with the dice roller Bones, but both Hangouts and Bones have problems, especially on Macs (3 Windows machines, 2 Macs).


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## Hussar

Nojo509 - I think your best option would be Maptools, to be honest.  I'm assuming you're running D&D of some form.  Let Maptools handle all the minis and maps stuff and use Skype for chat.


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## Oryan77

Hussar said:


> Nojo509 - I think your best option would be Maptools, to be honest.  I'm assuming you're running D&D of some form.  Let Maptools handle all the minis and maps stuff and use Skype for chat.




Just to add to this suggestion, connecting the computer to a TV will even allow the local players to easily view the map while the remote players view the same thing on their computer monitors. The biggest issue you will have will be audio. It will probably be hard for the remote players to hear the local players unless everyone wears headsets and connects to Skype.


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## Nojo509

Hussar said:


> Nojo509 - I think your best option would be Maptools, to be honest.  I'm assuming you're running D&D of some form.  Let Maptools handle all the minis and maps stuff and use Skype for chat.




I'm running Ashen Stars, a Gumshoe game. And not using minis.

But I'll check out Maptools none the less.


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## jcayer

We use Google Hangouts, with Roll20 integrated.  It's a split group, with most in house and one or two remote.  Google hangouts handles pretty much anything we need it to do.  We've just started using Roll20 and have been really impressed.  We had been using maptools, and will likely keep using maptools to make the map, but Roll20 will likely be our game night go-to.
The in house players sit on the couch and we have a computer hooked up to the big TV.


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## Nytmare

I thought I had linked this before, but I guess it was a different thread.  On the rare occasions where I've had to run remotely (I used to have a player who would occasionally have to work out of town for a couple of weeks at a time) we ran with a combination of gtalk for camera and communication, and a virtual tabletop I made for his end of things so that he could keep track of his character sheet, power cards, and what the map looked like.  http://pmw.org/nytmare/dnd/malik/


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## SkidAce

Nytmare said:


> I thought I had linked this before, but I guess it was a different thread.  On the rare occasions where I've had to run remotely (I used to have a player who would occasionally have to work out of town for a couple of weeks at a time) we ran with a combination of gtalk for camera and communication, and a virtual tabletop I made for his end of things so that he could keep track of his character sheet, power cards, and what the map looked like.  http://pmw.org/nytmare/dnd/malik/




That is fascinating...I mean it's "just" a sheet but the neatness of it is mind boggling.  How does the player see the map part?


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## Nytmare

SkidAce said:


> That is fascinating...I mean it's "just" a sheet but the neatness of it is mind boggling.  How does the player see the map part?




The player watched us move things around via webcam, and the map on his end of things was just there to help him visualize things and strategize.  I run with a "players' monitor" that constantly refreshes an image I have on my computer called viewer.jpg.  Anything I want the players to see, be it a map, or a landscape, or a NPC picture, I save as viewer.jpg and the image on their screen refreshes to show it.  The map view on that webpage automatically loads that same image and drops the character chits and circles on top of it.


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## Janx

jcayer said:


> We use Google Hangouts, with Roll20 integrated.  It's a split group, with most in house and one or two remote.  Google hangouts handles pretty much anything we need it to do.  We've just started using Roll20 and have been really impressed.  We had been using maptools, and will likely keep using maptools to make the map, but Roll20 will likely be our game night go-to.
> The in house players sit on the couch and we have a computer hooked up to the big TV.




How is it working out to have some players local to the GM, some remote?

Based on my experience doing lots of time in conference calls, I would avoid the situation if possible and make everybody be remote.  Otherwise, the remote player will be left out of physical cues and personal access to the GM.


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## jcayer

It certainly has its challenges.  We have one player who used to travel more than 50%.  His travel has slowed, but a new member of the group has a hard time making it, so he's remote most of the time.

As the GM, I know I have to listen for when he has something to say, and make sure I interrupt the other players so he has his say.  But he definitely gets left out from time to time.  Even with just about everything on screen, he still misses stuff.  Ultimately, it is his choice.  He lives about 30-40 minutes from where we play, so it's not like we're three states away.

When his turn is coming up, we often have to highlight the details of what's going on since it is hard from him to get everything.  Part of that is the fact we only have one mic that we put in the middle of the room.  Soft talkers are hard for him to hear.

We've been playing 5 years and have gone through numerous iterations of remote play and this is the best we've come up with.  The only way it has been better is when we use an old star phone I have, but I feel bad locking up the phone line all night, leaving my wife cut off from the outside world.


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## Nytmare

Yeah, that's actually one thing I'd re-rig if I ever had to try doing it again.  I'd get a second microphone for the table, and give the remote players some kind of alarm they could sound on my end to get my attention.


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## jcayer

The second microphone causes issues.  Because I have a GM laptop and the TV has a different computer, adding a second mic causes all kinds of echoing, etc.

I just got word that my sometimes remote guy, travels for work, is moving to Florida.  That means 2 remote players 95% of the time.  I may have to figure out a second mic.  I wonder if I could split the wire and have both go to one PC.


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## Radiating Gnome

It's possible that a different microphone might work better. 

Since a speakerphone style mic worked for you, maybe that's what you need to look for -- a USB equivalent.  

I've used this one in the past, and had good luck:
http://www.amazon.com/Plantronics-C...d=1370023596&sr=8-6&keywords=usb+speakerphone

But there are other, less expensive options that may work well. Take a look at these search results:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=usb+speakerphone

-rg


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## Duvik

roll20...   /me scoffs...   Why pay for what you can get for free with MapTool? 

so, I was looking up that old defunct attempt at what roll20 is currently doing aka Ghostorb, after trying out roll20 freemium, and I wanted to put my two cents in as I've been involved in pen and paper gaming using Virtual Gametables for around 8 yrs now. (I tried to pay them with paypal just to check out the subscription version, in order to review it, but they scoffed and told me to get a debit card) no matter...  I only pimp free Virtual Game Tables...  free gametables that kick arse first and ask questions later

First of all... don't pay for the gametable...  pay for the gamemaster, give that man a tip! ...  there's so much free content out there and a kickass Virtual Game Table called MapTool is totally free as well...  I just finished out testing roll20 and I'm not impressed.  Don't get me wrong, the freemium stuff is fair, it only lagged a little...  but charging a subscription for more storage and Dynamic Lighting is just BS...  MapTool offers the same thing for free (and yes, I've seen it mentioned... I just pimp MapTool whenever I see sheep being led...)

If ya don't believe me, check my credentials at The Tangled Web...  I'm Ao over there.  thetangledweb.net if yer too lazy to google.  That site let's you find tons of players ready to get together to play Dungeons and Dragons using MapTool and OpenRPG/Traipse/OpenCartographer, whatever the hell it is now and they don't charge for the service. 

Anyway, just trying to save some of the flock. If you can give me anything that roll20 offers that mapTool doesn't besides being totally browser based, let me know. (MapTool does require scary ol' Java... ooooOOOoooo... Scary...) not


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## Nojo509

Radiating Gnome said:


> It's possible that a different microphone might work better.
> 
> Since a speakerphone style mic worked for you, maybe that's what you need to look for -- a USB equivalent.
> 
> I've used this one in the past, and had good luck:
> http://www.amazon.com/Plantronics-C...d=1370023596&sr=8-6&keywords=usb+speakerphone
> 
> But there are other, less expensive options that may work well. Take a look at these search results:
> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=usb+speakerphone
> 
> -rg




I've moved to a one laptop solution using the Blue Snowball mic and Google hangouts. I'm GMing Ashen Stars in a mixed environment and Trail of Cthulhu all remote. I'm getting in the grove now.


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## Radiating Gnome

Duvik said:


> If ya don't believe me, check my credentials at The Tangled Web...  I'm Ao over there.  thetangledweb.net if yer too lazy to google.  That site let's you find tons of players ready to get together to play Dungeons and Dragons using MapTool and OpenRPG/Traipse/OpenCartographer, whatever the hell it is now and they don't charge for the service.




Duvik - I went and followed your link, and it's apparently a dead site. 

Anyway -- community makes a big difference for open source projects like MapTools.  If you can afford the time for the learning curve, it's a great way to play -- and the choice I use most often. 

-rg


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## jcayer

I think you really have to combine both Maptools and Roll20.  I use maptools to create the maps, but we use roll20 when we play.  With two remote guys, and integration into Google hangouts, we can't lose.  It seems that as our group has matured, our style has changed as well.  The 1.5+ hour combats are fewer and farther between as we have learned to enjoy the story and RP events more.  Hence our requirement for google hangouts.

My group did purchase one of the usb speakerphones.  We spent some time on it last session and did not have much luck with it.  We haven't given up yet, but were not happy with performance the first time.


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