# FR Preview-Sword Mage and Genasi



## FadedC (Jul 18, 2008)

Not sure if people have seen this yet, but you can find a preview of the FR material (specifically intended for the LFR campaign) at the bottom of the following link

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=rpga/news/lfrcharacters

It has a fair amount of crunch in there, including new races and limited stats on the sword mage.

Apolgies if this is already known info.


----------



## Mistwell (Jul 18, 2008)

I'm liking the Swordmage so far


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 18, 2008)

My take on the swordmage.

Overall, the flavor is very cool, but ultimately, I still worry that this is going to be a better defender than the fighter and paladin.

Since he's int based, he's likely going to have a +4 int mod starting off. With his warding ability that's 10 + 4 int + 2 leather armor + 3 warding = 19 AC, and a +4 bonus to reflex saves. A scale mail, heavy shield fighter also has a 19 AC, but only has a +2 reflex (unless he's a light blade fighter and is using dex for his secondary stat), and also has a -1 speed and a -1 armor check penalty.

On the other hand, the swordmage gets 1 less healing surge per day than the fighter, and 2 less than the paladin, so that could make up for it.

The aegis of assault is actually pretty weak, because its a melee basic attack, and strength won't be their primary stat. On the other hand, you can often flank with the teleport so that might make up for it.

The aegis of shielding is overpowered at higher levels imo. The 5 + con mod isn't too bad, especially since it is not a primary stat for the swordmage like charisma is to a paladin. However, it should not become 10 + con at 11th and 15 + con at 21st. Monster hitpoints scale a lot faster than their damage, so its okay that the paladin gets more damage at higher levels. But the aegis should not scale, or at least no where as fast.

Greenflame blade is a much better cleave. It doesn't do as much damage as cleave because strength is a secondary stat, but in general cleave is a minion killer, and this one lets you kill more minions with a single swing.

I will say I like Blastback Swipe, just because the mechanics are new and unique. This is always the big worry with teh powers system...will new powers just look slightly altered copies of the original powers? This one is a power you can use on a charge or when using your swordmage ability, which is cool and unique. Hope to see more flavorful powers like this one.


----------



## Mistwell (Jul 18, 2008)

I think it's now possible to run a full, balanced party with all the various roles, using just spellcasters.  Cleric, Wizard, Warlock, and SwordMage.  That could be cool for Magic College campaigns.


----------



## Jack99 (Jul 18, 2008)

It looks a bit more powerful than the other defenders. However this is only based on a quick read-through, not thorough analysis. 

But damn I want to play one, they look sweet. Can't wait to try out a Swordmage multiclass wizard too.


----------



## Kordeth (Jul 18, 2008)

Mistwell said:


> I think it's now possible to run a full, balanced party with all the various roles, using just spellcasters.  Cleric, Wizard, Warlock, and SwordMage.  That could be cool for Magic College campaigns.




Don't forget you can swap the cleric for an artificer if you want an all-arcane group.

Now if we can just get a martial controller, we can get an all-martial party too.


----------



## Mistwell (Jul 18, 2008)

Kordeth said:


> Don't forget you can swap the cleric for an artificer if you want an all-arcane group.
> 
> Now if we can just get a martial controller, we can get an all-martial party too.




I have not seen the Artificer yet.  Is there a link?


----------



## greatamericanfolkher (Jul 18, 2008)

windsoul, watersoul, and stormsoul look decent, and I bet you'll see a lot of characters from the Akanul region.


----------



## AllisterH (Jul 18, 2008)

Er, did I miss something...

Was the warding ability culled? I thought it was supposedly double your INT modifier


----------



## Dolfan (Jul 18, 2008)

greatamericanfolkher said:


> windsoul, watersoul, and stormsoul look decent, and I bet you'll see a lot of characters from the Akanul region.




I'm actually from the Akanul region, and I've wanted to play a Genasi Swordmage since before the rules were released... I really hope that I don't get labelled as the new cheesy build.


----------



## FireLance (Jul 19, 2008)

Mistwell said:


> I have not seen the Artificer yet.  Is there a link?



Link to the Dragon article.


----------



## Spatula (Jul 19, 2008)

AllisterH said:


> Er, did I miss something...
> 
> Was the warding ability culled? I thought it was supposedly double your INT modifier



I believe that was speculation that the warding ability was + your Int mod to AC, which would have been effectively 2x your Int mod when wearing light armor.  That was just based off of an example sword mage, and not any actual information on where those numbers came from.


----------



## Zsig (Jul 19, 2008)

Ok, this blows me up, I soo want to play one.

Curiously, they removed the Keyword: Teleport from _Aegis of Shielding_

Lightning Lure is now probably my favorite At-will.

Also, Greenflame blade is some sort of Cleave on steroids...

..hum... still digesting it...


----------



## mach1.9pants (Jul 19, 2008)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> The aegis of assault is actually pretty weak, because its a melee basic attack, and strength won't be their primary stat. On the other hand, you can often flank with the teleport so that might make up for it.



With the Blastback swipe Enc power that help the aegis, I think this is a better defender than a fighter (upto level 3!) but probably equal to a paladin...A pals extra healing bits are so useful in any party IMO
I would like to play one for sure! But I reckon for damge output the fighter may turn out better over the 30 levels but we'll just have to wait and see


----------



## greatamericanfolkher (Jul 19, 2008)

Dolfan said:


> I'm actually from the Akanul region, and I've wanted to play a Genasi Swordmage since before the rules were released... I really hope that I don't get labelled as the new cheesy build.




It's good, but I wouldn't call it cheesy good. The region's benefit, in my opinion, overshadow the other regions, but not so mush that it would be the only choice you should make.


----------



## Spatula (Jul 19, 2008)

Stalker0 said:


> Overall, the flavor is very cool, but ultimately, I still worry that this is going to be a better defender than the fighter and paladin.
> 
> Since he's int based, he's likely going to have a +4 int mod starting off. With his warding ability that's 10 + 4 int + 2 leather armor + 3 warding = 19 AC, and a +4 bonus to reflex saves. A scale mail, heavy shield fighter also has a 19 AC, but only has a +2 reflex (unless he's a light blade fighter and is using dex for his secondary stat), and also has a -1 speed and a -1 armor check penalty.



Even a non-blade fighter is going to want Dex for initiative and Reflex... while it's not a main stat, it's very likely that you'd have at least a +1 bonus there at 1st level, and then the +2 from the heavy shield, for a total of +3 (vs the swordmage's +4).


----------



## Rechan (Jul 19, 2008)

They don't really give you any Con-based powers for the Assault build.

I don't really understand Transposing Lunge. Does this mean that you teleport an enemy into any square adjacent to you, or what? I can see this being a real benefit if you have a reach weapon.

I like how the Aegis ability you pick is what's amplified by certain powers, rather than your "Build". That really lets you pick and choose. Also, the ability to use Blastback Swipe in a charge and with your Aegis is good; I like how they spell that out, too. 

The genasi racial powers look really powerful compared to what's in the PHB. 

God this class looks fun.


----------



## Zsig (Jul 19, 2008)

Rechan said:


> I don't really understand Transposing Lunge. Does this mean that you teleport an enemy into any square adjacent to you, or what? I can see this being a real benefit if you have a reach weapon.





They removed the Teleport Keyword from Aegis of Shielding. That means, basicly, you're using Transposing Lung at "Range 10", even though it's a "Melee Weapon" power, that's what they mean with "beyond your reach".

Also, I don't think using a reach weaopn would make any difference.

Finally


			
				Rechan said:
			
		

> I like how the Aegis ability you pick is what's amplified by certain powers, rather than your "Build". That really lets you pick and choose. Also, the ability to use Blastback Swipe in a charge and with your Aegis is good; I like how they spell that out, too.



I agree. I'm trying to fool around building one up, and it's quite difficult to choose one between Lightning Lure and Sword Burst...

...actually, Lightning Lure is a go...


----------



## mach1.9pants (Jul 19, 2008)

Rechan said:


> I don't really understand Transposing Lunge. Does this mean that you teleport an enemy into any square adjacent to you, or what? I can see this being a real benefit if you have a reach weapon.



IMO it's main use is with your aegis but still the ability to move a creature into one of any of your eight surrounding squares is still pretty useful, setting up flanking, ending flanking, dropping him in some terrain that you want etc.


----------



## Rechan (Jul 19, 2008)

Zsig said:


> They removed the Teleport Keyword from Aegis of Shielding. That means, basicly, you're using Transposing Lung at "Range 10", even though it's a "Melee Weapon" power, that's what they mean with "beyond your reach".



But what if you have Aegis of Assault; does it just mean that you can teleport the enemy into any of your 8 adjacent squares? 



> Also, I don't think using a reach weaopn would make any difference.



Reach means you can hit someone two squares away, and move them around, rather than having to be adjacent.


----------



## Rechan (Jul 19, 2008)

Is there anything requiring the Swordmage to use a Sword? 

Also, as to the potential that the "Swordmage makes a better Defender", I don't think so. The Fighter is best at dishing out the damage, and being very fighter-y. A monster runs from a Fighter, it's going to get Hurt. A monster runs from a Swordmage, and the swordmage says 'Uh uh, next round you're coming Right back here, pal.' Swordmages look best at: Defending Friends by Moving Enemies and Friends around the battlefield. They're very 'Controllery Defenders'.

I suspect that the Assault Swordmage is going to focus on close blast powers. 

Dragonborn, with their breath weapon damage depending on Con, and with their +2 Str, are going to make good Assault Swordmages.


----------



## Zsig (Jul 19, 2008)

Rechan said:


> But what if you have Aegis of Assault; does it just mean that you can teleport the enemy into any of your 8 adjacent squares?
> 
> 
> Reach means you can hit someone two squares away, and move them around, rather than having to be adjacent.




Ahh, I see what you're talking about now.

Yeah, it works that way. (Short answer: Yes, any square adjacent. And yes, it's good with a reach weapon)

Though, it's still alot better if you have Aegis of Shielding, and in that case, reach won't make any difference.

I got a question about that spell though.

If I hit (and I have Aegis of Shielding on the target), does my ally get any damage, or is the attack canceled (since it's an interrupt)? Or since the Aegis responds to someone who's already been hit, it just reduces the damage, regardless of whther Transposing Lunge hit or not?

Am I making myself clear?



			
				Rechan said:
			
		

> Is there anything requiring the Swordmage to use a Sword?



Except for the Warding and his implement, I don't think so. (also, note that he's not really proficient with any good military weapons aside from blades)


			
				Rechan said:
			
		

> They're very 'Controllery Defenders'.



That's exactly how it felt when I played that dwarf on a local event. While the paladins are more "Leaderish Defenders".


----------



## Rechan (Jul 19, 2008)

Zsig said:


> If I hit (and I have Aegis of Shielding on the target), does my ally get any damage, or is the attack canceled (since it's an interrupt)? Or since the Aegis responds to someone who's already been hit, it just reduces the damage, regardless of whther Transposing Lunge hit or not?
> 
> Am I making myself clear?



The only thing that would suggest that Transposing Lunge could stop the attack is the fact that it's an interrupt, instead of a reaction. However, I think that if it stopped the attack all together, then the power would say as much. 

That's what I _think_. It's entirely possible that's the implication but it's not spelled out.


----------



## Falling Icicle (Jul 19, 2008)

The Drow stats confuse me. In previous editions females favored the cleric class while males favored the wizard class, but the 4e drow isn't good at either class.


----------



## Zsig (Jul 19, 2008)

Rechan said:


> The only thing that would suggest that Transposing Lunge could stop the attack is the fact that it's an interrupt, instead of a reaction. However, I think that if it stopped the attack all together, then the power would say as much.
> 
> That's what I _think_. It's entirely possible that's the implication but it's not spelled out.




Hum, I went ahead and looked out for some similar powers on the PHB, and I'm almost sure it does indeed prevent the attack altogether.

Look at _Evade the Blow_ (ranger utility 16).
It also kicks in after the enemy has hit with the attack, and because you shift as an interrupt, target's hit is canceled. (Even though the descriptive text is irrelevant, I believe in this case it helps understanding it)

I think it's pretty much the same case we're seeing here.


Enemy hits ally
Interrupt kicks in (along with Transposing Lunge)
I roll the attack
On a hit, target is teleported, and thus have no range to ally, cancelling foe's attack
On a miss, target is still close (provided he was in melee) to my ally, his attack proceeds
Aegis reduces foe's damage. (Now irrelevant if Transposing Lunge was a hit)


----------



## Fedifensor (Jul 19, 2008)

Zsig said:


> Except for the Warding and his implement, I don't think so. (also, note that he's not really proficient with any good military weapons aside from blades)



Note that a glaive is a 'heavy blade'...


----------



## small pumpkin man (Jul 19, 2008)

Falling Icicle said:


> The Drow stats confuse me. In previous editions females favored the cleric class while males favored the wizard class, but the 4e drow isn't good at either class.



I find their similarity to Halflings hilarious. Same stats, bonus to stealth, cloud of darkness seems similar in effect to the halfling bonuses. Oh, and both are going to be running around with dual scimitars.


----------



## Branduil (Jul 19, 2008)

Greenflame Blade is overpowered. It's a super-cleave.


----------



## WhatGravitas (Jul 19, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Also, as to the potential that the "Swordmage makes a better Defender", I don't think so. The Fighter is best at dishing out the damage, and being very fighter-y. A monster runs from a Fighter, it's going to get Hurt.



Also: The fighter has an easier time marking his opponents - he only has to attack them. With his encounter powers, a fighter can easily mark all enemies in reach, with a ranged weapon he can mark from range... and once you get close to a fighter, you simply need teleport or get hurt - a lot.

I only have the feel that the dailies and perhaps utilities of a fighter don't shine that much on first/second level.


Branduil said:


> Greenflame Blade is overpowered. It's a super-cleave.



When I read that, I thought so as well... but then: How often do you get so many minions in such a small region that it's really better than cleave? And if they're so packed... why aren't they roasted by your wizard's Scorching Burst already? Otherwise, cleave will to more damage on straight-up monsters.

It looks strong, but I won't cry overpowered... yet. But Sword Burst... that's very, very good. I so want that for my fighter! Marking power like crazy!

Cheers, LT.


----------



## Branduil (Jul 19, 2008)

Lord Tirian said:


> When I read that, I thought so as well... but then: How often do you get so many minions in such a small region that it's really better than cleave? And if they're so packed... why aren't they roasted by your wizard's Scorching Burst already? Otherwise, cleave will to more damage on straight-up monsters.
> 
> It looks strong, but I won't cry overpowered... yet. But Sword Burst... that's very, very good. I so want that for my fighter! Marking power like crazy!
> 
> Cheers, LT.




A Swordmage still needs a good strength so his modifier is unlikely to be much lower that the fighter's. Probably about 1 point of difference. I don't think one less point of damage is enough to make up for being able to apply that damage to all adjacent enemies.


----------



## Belphanior (Jul 19, 2008)

I like what I see of the swordmage. The fighter is the nasty defender who can dish it out and take it back. The paladin is the cleric-y defender with radiant damage and heals. But the swordmage is the defender with the warlock's annoyance factor baked in (annoyance to the monsters, glorious for the party of course).

Greenflame Blade is a little over the top. I'd like it better if it did extra damage to all creatures adjacent rather than enemies. That would mean it's more situational and better suited for glaive-swordmages, which in turn kills their AC. Not an unreasonable tradeoff I think.


----------



## WhatGravitas (Jul 19, 2008)

Branduil said:


> A Swordmage still needs a good strength so his modifier is unlikely to be much lower that the fighter's. Probably about 1 point of difference. I don't think one less point of damage is enough to make up for being able to apply that damage to all adjacent enemies.



Erm, why should he go for strength? He uses Intelligence for attack and damage, and Constitution for his Aegis of Shielding and his surges (where he's a bit deficient compared to the fighter and paladin). So far, Strength has three applications: Flame Cyclone, Greenflame Blade, and OAs (which are less pronounced than the fighter's).

Though Greenflame Blade certainly isn't weak, that I agree to - I'm just not calling it overpowered, yet.

Int and Con are much better alternatives for better hitting and more resilience. 

Cheers, LT.


----------



## keterys (Jul 19, 2008)

Fire is far more resisted, maybe they thought that was enough to justify the difference.


----------



## WhatGravitas (Jul 19, 2008)

keterys said:


> Fire is far more resisted, maybe they thought that was enough to justify the difference.



Another slight edge of Cleave in minion situations: Cleave damages an enemy adjacent to you, whereas Greenflame Blade damages enemies adjacent to the hit creature.

Minions are often in large numbers and tend to flank you - Cleave can get you out of minion flanks with ease. Greenflame Blade is more like a Blast 3 that hits all or nothing.

Cheers, LT.


----------



## small pumpkin man (Jul 19, 2008)

Lord Tirian said:


> Erm, why should he go for strength? He uses Intelligence for attack and damage, and Constitution for his Aegis of Shielding and his surges (where he's a bit deficient compared to the fighter and paladin). So far, Strength has three applications: Flame Cyclone, Greenflame Blade, and OAs (which are less pronounced than the fighter's).
> 
> Though Greenflame Blade certainly isn't weak, that I agree to - I'm just not calling it overpowered, yet.
> 
> ...



That would be Aegis of Assault, there is quite clearly a separate strength and a con build.


----------



## -Avalon- (Jul 19, 2008)

*I agree*

Why go for strength with a high priority? if you have a 12 or 14 str, should be perfectly fine.

I personally see Tieflings as being awesome for the class.  With the feat for adding the +1 att/+1 dam to all Keyword:Fire powers? and the encounter power they get to add charisma bonus to damage and all?  Then of course the feat for pushing enemies when you deal fire damage with your racial encounter power...  Tieflings seem just perfectly built for this class.


----------



## Fedifensor (Jul 19, 2008)

-Avalon- said:


> Why go for strength with a high priority? if you have a 12 or 14 str, should be perfectly fine.



* Opportunity Attacks
* Bonus damage on many powers (Greenflame Blade, Flame Cyclone, Burning Blade)
* Feat qualifications (Armor Proficiency: Hide, Heavy Blade Opportunity, Heavy Blade Mastery)

Heavy Blade Opportunity is particularly important.  Not only can you use an Int-based attack instead of a Str-based melee basic attack on an OA, but you can hit an entire area around the foe (via Greenflame Blade).  That means a minimum 14 Strength at 1st level if you want access to it by Paragon tier without using level bumps...12 won't be enough.

Aside from extra protection for your ally with Aegis of Shielding, Constitution isn't that important.  The only at will attack that uses it is Burning Blade, and the only other power that uses it is Chilling Blow (which is okay, but not as good as Flame Cyclone).  You can raise Constititution to increase the protection you can give an ally, but I don't think it's worth losing access to all the other things a high Strength can give you.

Dexterity is also important...I'd try to get a 15 by the Paragon tier, and a 17 by Epic tier, so you can qualify for several useful feats.


----------



## Mengu (Jul 19, 2008)

Drow - I like these better than any previous incarnation. I'm considering just changing the racial name and flavor a bit while keeping the rules, and making a Shadowwalker race for my campaign.

Genasi - I already have Mephits in my campaign world (though not as a PC race), and a lot of elemental flavor. These are going to be a perfect fit. Only problem is, I can't seem to be able to copy paste form the PDF's, so I'm going to have to re-type it all. 

Swordmage - Very nice and flavorful, but I am wondering if it gives one too many options in the hands of a defender. This class almost feels like a hybrid defender/controller. It's walking a narrow beam, and I'll reserve judgement till after I see the rest of the class, but I fear it may steal a bit too much of the spotlight away from other defenders and controllers in gameplay.

Backgrounds - Anything that gives a Perception, Insight, or Initiative bonus is good for most anyone. The rest are more specific for a character concept. I'm glad to have seen these, it gives me an idea of what kinds of background bonuses I can give, if I choose to do so.


----------



## AllisterH (Jul 19, 2008)

Mengu said:


> Swordmage - Very nice and flavorful, but I am wondering if it gives one too many options in the hands of a defender. This class almost feels like a hybrid defender/controller. It's walking a narrow beam, and I'll reserve judgement till after I see the rest of the class, but I fear it may steal a bit too much of the spotlight away from other defenders and controllers in gameplay.
> 
> .




I think almost all the classes havea dual nature going on. They have a primary role which is the default and a secondary role they can exploit if they focus on it primarily.

So far we have,
Cleric - LEADER/Controller
Fighter - DEFENDER/Striker
Paladin - DEFENDER/Leader
Warlord - LEADER/Defender
Wizard - CONTROLLER/Striker
Warlock - STRIKER/Controller
Artificer - LEADER/Controller
Swordmage - DEFENDER/Controller

Ironically, both the rogue and the ranger are the only classes that I think have ONLY a primary role.


----------



## Zetesofos (Jul 19, 2008)

That's what I've always thought.  They should have labeled class rolls as such, to give a better idea of what a class is cabable off.  (And I had thought of the same secondary roles too.  Though, the strikers seem to be the only ones that seem limited in scope.)

As for the Swordmage, responding to the OP, remember that a shield adds to reflex, so all the denders will have similar ref (Paladin possibly the most??)  The swordmage will be good at denying damage when he needs to, and more adept at taking on larger groups, but disadvantages will be larger and meaner monsters, ones that can go through the Shielding aegis, and who don't suffer from the swordmages ability to target more enemies.  Against the big dragon or orcus, Fighers seem to be top-notch, they can land hits, bring the hurt, and keep truckin'.  Everyone has they're nitch, so if you fight 30 kobolds, swordmage is your man 

my two cents anway.


----------



## -Avalon- (Jul 19, 2008)

Fedifensor said:


> * Opportunity Attacks
> * Bonus damage on many powers (Greenflame Blade, Flame Cyclone, Burning Blade)
> * Feat qualifications (Armor Proficiency: Hide, Heavy Blade Opportunity, Heavy Blade Mastery)
> 
> Heavy Blade Opportunity is particularly important.  Not only can you use an Int-based attack instead of a Str-based melee basic attack on an OA, but you can hit an entire area around the foe (via Greenflame Blade).  That means a minimum 14 Strength at 1st level if you want access to it by Paragon tier without using level bumps...12 won't be enough.




Hide maybe, but no hvy armors (not mentioned but... so str can be drastically lower), they are pumping their Int through the roof, and the heavy armors will actually hinder the character. And Hide requires only a 13 str and 13 con.

Weap prof's/feats require a 15 str (hvy blade opp), and 21 str (hvy blade master)  so if you are gunning for the feats at earliest possible moment (21st level for the epic tier and 11th for the paragon one) you need only start with a 15 str, otherwise a 14 is perfectly fine.

OA's are nice, but not the meat of the class, the main "OA" style attacks look to be immediate interrupt at-wills, so yet again, focus on Int, and have str at an "ok" number.  (with a 14 str, will have a +5 to hit AC or more on OA's)



Fedifensor said:


> Aside from extra protection for your ally with Aegis of Shielding, Constitution isn't that important.  The only at will attack that uses it is Burning Blade, and the only other power that uses it is Chilling Blow (which is okay, but not as good as Flame Cyclone).  You can raise Constititution to increase the protection you can give an ally, but I don't think it's worth losing access to all the other things a high Strength can give you.
> 
> Dexterity is also important...I'd try to get a 15 by the Paragon tier, and a 17 by Epic tier, so you can qualify for several useful feats.




Dex is ok also, I would keep at a decent amount, and try to bump it every once in awhile...

With tiefling, I would go with an 18 int (16+race), a 15 Cha (13+race), 14 Str, 13 Con, 12 Dex, 8 Wis (ick, but necessary I think)

This will give the char a decent starting point to work towards getting those feats, a nice bonus at 1st level to hit with his "Int vs" attacks, The tiefling feat for +1 Att/+1 Dam on fire based, with a longsword, should have +8 vs AC on Greenflame blade (with 1d8 + 5 Damage, and 3 damage to all adj enemies)

Not to mention the other powers...


----------



## parcival42 (Jul 19, 2008)

*Those who oppose his shield must yield!*



-Avalon- said:


> Weap prof's/feats require a 15 str (hvy blade opp), and 21 str (hvy blade master)  so if you are gunning for the feats at earliest possible moment (21st level for the epic tier and 11th for the paragon one) you need only start with a 15 str, otherwise a 14 is perfectly fine.




Also, another consideration for the Assault build aside from the proficiency in Hide armor is proficiency in Light and Heavy Shields.  They require a 13 and 15 Str respectively.  

If you're willing to sink the feats in it, you can have an Assault Swordmage with as good an AC and better Ref defense than a Shielding Swordmage.  
Hide, Lgt. Shield, Hvy. Shield and maybe Bastard Sword to get more out of your weapon...only 4 feats...not too bad of a trade off?


----------



## Zsig (Jul 19, 2008)

IMO, it's not really worth it to have the Heavy Blade feats,
-Heavy Blade Opportunity will let you use Greenflame Blade instead of a regular Basic Attack when making an Op. Attack, not a big deal (all other at-wills either doesn't have the Weapon keyword, or in the case of Booming Blade, favors Con instead of Str).
-Heavy Blade Mastery, even though awesome, it is quite prohibitive for you, unless you cripple yourself on your main stat (Int), Str 21 and Dex 17, no way.
-Polearm Gamble to use with your Glaive? Yeah, good luck with your Wisdom 15 (which should be your dump stat, unless you've chosen Cha).

Now, that Heroic Tier feat, Blade Opportunist (which only requires Str and Dex 13) is quite reasonable for the Swordmage to get. If you feel like you need to.

Also, Charisma Paladins and Artful Dodger Rogues have lived this far with poor Op. Attacks, why is this a big deal to worry about it now? It's not like your Op's interrupt target's move or anything.

Paladins got Enfeebling Strike to make it for the lack of "glue", Swordmages have Booming Blade and Lightning Lure (to some extent).

Now, there are a couple interesting things you can do with light blades... think about multiclassing into Rogue for the sneak attack... maybe get yourself a rapier. Sure, Dex might be a problem if you decide to keep going through the Rogue path.

Lastly, Swordmage attacks are pretty inconsistent, I'm not sure how they end up at higher levels, but the damage types are pretty diverse, being it difficult to specialize in a certain damage type/keyword (there is the Greenflame Blade>Flame Cyclone>Burning Blade though), and it could also be a problem for the Weapon/Implement ones, you never know if the power you want will benefit from Weapon Focus, unless you plan ahead. This makes the Swordmage quite unreliable at being optimized for doing damage.

And I think it's fine.


----------



## Plane Sailing (Jul 19, 2008)

mach1.9pants said:


> IMO it's main use is with your aegis but still the ability to move a creature into one of any of your eight surrounding squares is still pretty useful, setting up flanking, ending flanking, dropping him in some terrain that you want etc.




Especially powerful if you are standing next to a wall, cliff, pit, lavaflow etc.

Too powerful? I don't know, but I'm biased because I dislike (perhaps even hate) lots of low level teleporting powers. Doesn't fit with my vision of fantasy setting.

Cheers


----------



## Xris Robin (Jul 20, 2008)

Hm.  Keeping in mind how little we've actually seen of Swordmage, does anyone think it's possible (or perhaps, viable) to multiclass it with Paladin?

Because the concept really interests me, since they're both Defender versions of spellcasting classes.

Err, also, does anyone know why certain powers are 'Implement' and some aren't?


----------



## Rechan (Jul 20, 2008)

Christopher Robin said:


> Err, also, does anyone know why certain powers are 'Implement' and some aren't?



Same reason the Paladin's powers are split between weapon and Implement, probably.


----------



## Danceofmasks (Jul 20, 2008)

On the subject of starting regions, aside from the obvious choices, skill rerolling looks like being possibly overpowered.
Especially once Druids become available, I'm wondering what consequences being able to reroll every single nature check is going to have.
(The +1 untyped initiative bonus is handy, too)


----------



## small pumpkin man (Jul 20, 2008)

-Avalon- said:


> Why go for strength with a high priority? if you have a 12 or 14 str, should be perfectly fine.



Because if you take Aegis of assault, and your strength is lower than 16, you'll have too much trouble hitting with your primary marking ability.


----------



## Zsig (Jul 20, 2008)

Just thought about something.

Swordmage Warding gives you a +3 AC bonus if you got one hand free, and +1 if you don't.

What happens if I am using a Longsword, then attack wielding it 2-handed, and simply release one hand from it after the attack? I remember there was some sort of discussion regarding what kind of an action was it to release grip and such, but I don't remember seeing any sort of "official" statement.

Does the AC bonus from the Warding keeps getting "checked" everytime at any given time?


----------



## AllisterH (Jul 20, 2008)

Zsig said:


> Just thought about something.
> 
> Swordmage Warding gives you a +3 AC bonus if you got one hand free, and +1 if you don't.
> 
> ...




Heh. Interesting question.

Obvious rules cheese but you know some people will exploit it. Assuming it doesn't get changed in the actual FR guide, I'd tentatively rule that the LAST attack you make determines the status of Warding.

re: Cleave vs Greenflame blade.

Cleave simply blows Greenflame blade. An earlier poster mentioned there's a "slight" advantage for Cleave but that's totally untrue.

It's a HUGE advantage and why Cleave makes Greenflame blade look sad.

Greenflame blade is useless when the swordmage is flanked. It basically requires the enemies to bunch up whereas Cleave is pretty much good to go in any situation where you are surrounded.


----------



## Danceofmasks (Jul 20, 2008)

Well, that is presumably the reason why putting on & removing a shield are standard actions.
Seeing as dropping something is a free action, and drawing a minor, _at most_ it would cost you a minor to change grips. I would say free.
Looks like the AC bonus continually updates, too.
Might require clarification before the FRPG gets released ..

This brings back the whole ring of force shielding cheese in 3e .. (2-hand wield a lance while mounted, full power attack while charging, deal hundreds of damage, then switch to 1-hand and activate ring).


----------



## Fedifensor (Jul 20, 2008)

Zsig said:


> IMO, it's not really worth it to have the Heavy Blade feats,
> -Heavy Blade Opportunity will let you use Greenflame Blade instead of a regular Basic Attack when making an Op. Attack, not a big deal (all other at-wills either doesn't have the Weapon keyword, or in the case of Booming Blade, favors Con instead of Str).



Minions go bye-bye when you start hitting people with Greenflame Blade...which makes the ability to do that on OAs pretty sweet.



> -Heavy Blade Mastery, even though awesome, it is quite prohibitive for you, unless you cripple yourself on your main stat (Int), Str 21 and Dex 17, no way.



You can do it with a Genasi or Eladrin while increasing Int at every opportunity, if you can wait to 24th to get it.  My Genasi has Str 16, Con 14, Dex 13, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8 at 1st level.  At 24th, he'll have Str 21, Con 16, Dex 17, Int 25, Wis 12, Cha 10.  If I decide to take Demigod, I can do it at 21st (Demigod +2 in Str and Int).



> -Polearm Gamble to use with your Glaive? Yeah, good luck with your Wisdom 15 (which should be your dump stat, unless you've chosen Cha).



It can be done, though you won't be doing both that and Heavy Blade Mastery unless you have the perfect race choice (Eladrin or Genasi), take Demigod as your Epic Destiny, and be very careful on how you assign stats. 



> Now, that Heroic Tier feat, Blade Opportunist (which only requires Str and Dex 13) is quite reasonable for the Swordmage to get. If you feel like you need to.



It's an excellent choice if you take Heavy Blade Opportunity.



> Also, Charisma Paladins and Artful Dodger Rogues have lived this far with poor Op. Attacks, why is this a big deal to worry about it now? It's not like your Op's interrupt target's move or anything.



Unless you're creative with your Paragon Path...and Booming Blade, even with a moderate Constitution, does good damage to foes that move away from you.



> Lastly, Swordmage attacks are pretty inconsistent, I'm not sure how they end up at higher levels, but the damage types are pretty diverse, being it difficult to specialize in a certain damage type/keyword (there is the Greenflame Blade>Flame Cyclone>Burning Blade though), and it could also be a problem for the Weapon/Implement ones, you never know if the power you want will benefit from Weapon Focus, unless you plan ahead. This makes the Swordmage quite unreliable at being optimized for doing damage.



Keep in mind, they haven't shown us all the powers for levels 1-3, much less the higher level stuff.


----------



## Rechan (Jul 20, 2008)

I was under the impression that Minions can only be killed by damage from attack _rolls_. Cleave, Greenfire, etc, aren't going to kill them because they don't have attack rolls.


----------



## FadedC (Jul 20, 2008)

Rechan said:


> I was under the impression that Minions can only be killed by damage from attack _rolls_. Cleave, Greenfire, etc, aren't going to kill them because they don't have attack rolls.




I believe that's how some people were running it in DDXP, but it's not true. Minions can't be killed by misses, but any other form of damage kills them.


----------



## Rechan (Jul 20, 2008)

FadedC said:


> I believe that's how some people were running it in DDXP, but it's not true. Minions can't be killed by misses, but any other form of damage kills them.



Then what about Reaping Strike? You do damage on a miss.


----------



## Zsig (Jul 20, 2008)

Rechan said:


> I was under the impression that Minions can only be killed by damage from attack _rolls_. Cleave, Greenfire, etc, aren't going to kill them because they don't have attack rolls.




IIRC, they just ignore _Miss_ effects, otherwise, any damage and they're gone. Just treat them as having both Evasion and Mettle. (and applying it to any sort of attack, and not just Close or Area attacks)

@Fedifensor

I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I'd rather just bump Int and Con every time I get to increase a stat and call it a day. I'm not that much into MAD.

I mean, I won't go out of my way spreading my points thinly among 5 or so attributes only so that at 11th+ or so level I'd be able to kill minions (and that's providing your DM is dumb enough to clump them together) with one hit, hell, I'm a Defender, let the Wizard deal with the minions, it's his job anyway.

Yeah, we still gotta see this guy's Paragon Paths, and I agree.

I'm seeing the Shielding Swordmage ( high Int and Con, with low Str like about 12) as being way better than the Assault Swordmage. If only we could add our Int mod to damage on that basic attack from the Aegis, then I think we'd have a deal.

I'll be playing one next monday, so far it looks like this:

Eladrin

Str 12/ Con 16 (+3 fort)
Dex 12/ Int 18 (+4 ref)
Wis 8 / Cha 12 (+1 will)

Aegis of Shielding
Booming Blade
Lightning Lure
Chilling Blow
Frost Backlash

Eladrin Soldier

I'll not worry about getting Hide armor up until I get to lvl 11, which at that point I'll retrain something for the Armor Spec (Hide) at the same time.

I've been wondering if it's really all that effective to MC into Wizard...


----------



## Rechan (Jul 20, 2008)

Zsig said:


> IIRC, they just ignore _Miss_ effects, otherwise, any damage and they're gone. Just treat them as having both Evasion and Mettle. (and applying it to any sort of attack, and not just Close or Area attacks)
> 
> @Fedifensor
> 
> ...



I honestly think that we're not seeing the Assault Swordmage powers, really. I mean, we only see two Encounters per level, and two Dailies. All classes get 4. Also, the only power facilitating con is "Chilling Blow",  and the Assault swordmage emphasizes Con. I think we got half a class.


----------



## DracoSuave (Jul 20, 2008)

Don't forget as well, your Sword IS your implement.  You just might be able to use that weapon focus feat with it after all.  (You just don't get prof. bonus with Implement attacks)


Not to mention, Aegis of Assault -nullifies- artillery/controller monsters.  They either have to attack you, or you r in thr base killin thr mans.  It doesn't JUST work on melee monsters, you know.


----------



## t3nk3n (Jul 20, 2008)

AllisterH said:


> So far we have,
> Cleric - LEADER/Controller
> Fighter - DEFENDER/Striker
> Paladin - DEFENDER/Leader
> ...




That looks a lot like my list, only I break it up by role instead of just blanketed by class.

Fighter:
Greatweapon - Defender, sub-Striker
Guardian - Defender, sub-Defender
Paladin:
Avenging - Defender, sub-Striker
Protecting - Defender. sub-Leader
Swordmage:
Assault - Defender, sub-Controller
Shielding - Defender, sub-Defender
Ranger:
Two-Weapon - Striker, sub-Defender
Archery - Striker, sub-Striker
Rogue:
Brawny - Striker, sub-Defender
Trickster - Striker, sub-Controller
Warlock:
Infernal - Striker, sub-Defender
Fey - Striker, sub-Controller
Star - Striker, sub-Leader
Wizard:
Control - Controller, sub-Controller
War - Controller, sub-Striker
Cleric:
Battle - Leader, sub-Defender
Devout - Leader, sub-Controller
Warlord:
Inspiring - Leader, sub-Leader
Tactical - Leader, sub-Striker


----------



## DracoSuave (Jul 20, 2008)

Rechan said:


> I honestly think that we're not seeing the Assault Swordmage powers, really. I mean, we only see two Encounters per level, and two Dailies. All classes get 4. Also, the only power facilitating con is "Chilling Blow",  and the Assault swordmage emphasizes Con.




Con based:
Booming Blade
Chilling Blow

Str based:
Greenflame Blade
Flame Cyclone
Burning Blade



			
				The Article said:
			
		

> Missing from this document are...about half of the swordmage powers from levels 1-3 (and all the rest of the class powers)....





			
				Obviousman said:
			
		

> I think we got half a class.


----------



## Rechan (Jul 20, 2008)

DracoSuave said:


> Con based:
> Booming Blade
> Chilling Blow
> 
> ...



It seems I've misinterpreted the Swordmage class. I thought that some powers would be Con vs. AC.

They're broken down into 
Assault: Int, Str secondary
Shielding: Int, Con secondayr.


----------



## Rechan (Jul 20, 2008)

DracoSuave said:


> Not to mention, Aegis of Assault -nullifies- artillery/controller monsters.  They either have to attack you, or you r in thr base killin thr mans.  It doesn't JUST work on melee monsters, you know.



Granted you have to be close enough to nab them in the Aegis's "Close Burst 2" area.


----------



## captainstewart (Jul 20, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Granted you have to be close enough to nab them in the Aegis's "Close Burst 2" area.




As I read it, that only means that they have to be within the burst 2 when you mark them. As long as you keep the mark on the target (which shouldn't be too difficult, as it says that it lasts until the end of the encounter or you decide to mark a different target with your _aegis_ power), you can teleport and smack them from anywhere within 10 squares of the guy. So by all means, feel free to run up there, mark that nasty ranged dude, and keep mitigating his attacks with your defender stats while you beat down some minions, and when he decides to hit someone a little more "squishy" you can jump on over to him and give him a slap in the face.

Now  if you want to get really creative, go crazy marking someone who's stuck in melee with another one of your allies, and then hop on over when he goes for your buddy, jumping in at his backside to get the flanking bonus and send him reeling right into the middle of your buddies (or some lava flow or the like). That ought to teach him to pay more attention to you.

Talk about retribution.


----------



## Aenghus (Jul 20, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> Especially powerful if you are standing next to a wall, cliff, pit, lavaflow etc.
> 
> Too powerful? I don't know, but I'm biased because I dislike (perhaps even hate) lots of low level teleporting powers. Doesn't fit with my vision of fantasy setting.
> Cheers




I've seen and talked to some who don't like the low level teleports. It does get in the way of running low fantasy, I grant.

Specifically in relation to the swordmage, it's appearing in a Forgotten Realms supplement, which a setting that has more tended to high fantasy.


----------



## jimtillman (Jul 21, 2008)

Branduil said:


> Greenflame Blade is overpowered. It's a super-cleave.




It is better then cleave for killing minions which is cleaves main use but that does not not mean that it is overpowered.
we will need to measure fighter and shield mage side by side in completness to determine if shieldmage is a batter class.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 21, 2008)

jimtillman said:


> It is better then cleave for killing minions which is cleaves main use but that does not not mean that it is overpowered.
> we will need to measure fighter and shield mage side by side in completness to determine if shieldmage is a batter class.




While having a better cleave does not make the swordmage overpowered, its a good indication that greenflame blade is overpowered. Since the swordmage and fighter have the same role, we can compare their powers directly.

Cleave's main strength is autokilling minions. Greenflame does the same thing, except even better. Since cleave isn't considered a weak power, then greenflame blade is a very strong, potentially overpowered power ESPECIALLY because it works just like cleave does and does it better.

Its one thing to have a good power that does a slightly different effect, its another to have a power that literally does the EXACT same thing a fighter's power does....and do it even better.


----------



## Rechan (Jul 21, 2008)

The difference has been pointed out: Cleave hits someone adjacent to the Fighter. Greenflame hits all adjacent to the _target_. It's only going to kill minions that are standing together in a formation. 

I would argue that the advantage Greenflame gives is going to come up less frequently than Cleave.


----------



## Mistwell (Jul 21, 2008)

Stalker0 said:


> While having a better cleave does not make the swordmage overpowered, its a good indication that greenflame blade is overpowered. Since the swordmage and fighter have the same role, we can compare their powers directly.
> 
> Cleave's main strength is autokilling minions. Greenflame does the same thing, except even better. Since cleave isn't considered a weak power, then greenflame blade is a very strong, potentially overpowered power ESPECIALLY because it works just like cleave does and does it better.
> 
> Its one thing to have a good power that does a slightly different effect, its another to have a power that literally does the EXACT same thing a fighter's power does....and do it even better.




WOTC seems to have gone to great lengths to balance things not on an individual level, but on a whole level.  You can no longer accurately compare one power to another directly, because too much of the balance is caught up in which ability is used, what other things are lost to opportunity cost, feats or lack thereof that are either anticipated or denied, and similar things.

That doesn't mean greenflame blade is balanced.  But it does mean you cannot just directly compare two powers and declare one overpowered based on that small amount of analysis.  The system just doesn't work that way, and isn't built that way.


----------



## keterys (Jul 21, 2008)

Stalker0 said:


> Greenflame does the same thing, except even better. Since cleave isn't considered a weak power, then greenflame blade is a very strong, potentially overpowered power ESPECIALLY because it works just like cleave does and does it better.




Well, it only does it better if multiple minions cluster right next to an enemy. Cleave can hit a minion and monster that are 2 apart (such as when they're flanking the fighter or someone else) - which I think may well be a more common situation. Tough to be certain.

Further, fire damage is hands down worse for minion killing. 0% of minions resist weapon damage while 20% resist fire damage, so would not die to Greenflame.



> Its one thing to have a good power that does a slightly different effect, its another to have a power that literally does the EXACT same thing a fighter's power does....and do it even better.



It isn't just better. It's different in some key ways.


----------



## Lord Sessadore (Jul 21, 2008)

keterys said:


> Well, it only does it better if multiple minions cluster right next to an enemy. Cleave can hit a minion and monster that are 2 apart (such as when they're flanking the fighter or someone else) - which I think may well be a more common situation. Tough to be certain.
> 
> Further, fire damage is hands down worse for minion killing. 0% of minions resist weapon damage while 20% resist fire damage, so would not die to Greenflame.
> 
> It isn't just better. It's different in some key ways.



Just curious - is that "20% of minions resist fire damage" an actual statistic from analysis of the MM?  Or is it just a made up stat that sounded about right?


----------



## Nikodemus (Jul 21, 2008)

Lord Sessadore said:


> Just curious - is that "20% of minions resist fire damage" an actual statistic from analysis of the MM?  Or is it just a made up stat that sounded about right?





Going through the monster manual, it seems that the actual number is around 13% of the different types of minions have fire resist.  That's enough to lower the effectiveness of greenflae as a minion killer in my book.


----------



## Eldorian (Jul 23, 2008)

DracoSuave said:


> Don't forget as well, your Sword IS your implement.  You just might be able to use that weapon focus feat with it after all.  (You just don't get prof. bonus with Implement attacks)
> 
> 
> Not to mention, Aegis of Assault -nullifies- artillery/controller monsters.  They either have to attack you, or you r in thr base killin thr mans.  It doesn't JUST work on melee monsters, you know.





Weapon focus, Kensei, Daggermaster, all these bonuses are for weapons.  When used as an implement, a longsword or whatever isn't a weapon.  Hence, no weapon focus bonus with your Swordmage when casting spells with the implement keyword.  Weapon keyword?  Go ahead.




Also, the switching out a versatile weapon for one hand for the shield bonus, I definitely wouldn't allow.  I'd say, as soon as you hold anything in your offhand, you lose the bonus until the beginning of your next action.  I expect them to reword it as such before it goes to print.


----------



## FadedC (Jul 23, 2008)

My only real concern about the swordmage is that a swordmage with aegis of shielding is strongly encouraged to mark his opponent and run away to fight a different opponent, much like the paladin was before he was fixed. Given that the aegis tends to completely neutralize the enemies attacks, this would seem even more powerful then when the paladin could do it.


----------



## Nikodemus (Jul 23, 2008)

FadedC said:


> My only real concern about the swordmage is that a swordmage with aegis of shielding is strongly encouraged to mark his opponent and run away to fight a different opponent, much like the paladin was before he was fixed. Given that the aegis tends to completely neutralize the enemies attacks, this would seem even more powerful then when the paladin could do it.




The aegis of shielding is nice, but lets not overstate it.  Even a lowly hobgoblin soldier gets through to damage with an average roll against the aegis.


----------



## keterys (Jul 23, 2008)

Lord Sessadore said:


> Just curious - is that "20% of minions resist fire damage" an actual statistic from analysis of the MM?  Or is it just a made up stat that sounded about right?




Actually, it was 8 of 39 minions. I have a spreadsheet. Some types repeat, however (like, Legion Devils and Angels of Valor have multiple leveled versions) - I'm not sure that changes the point, though


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Jul 23, 2008)

Lord Sessadore said:


> Just curious - is that "20% of minions resist fire damage" an actual statistic from analysis of the MM?  Or is it just a made up stat that sounded about right?



Legion Devils have fire resistance, that's one minion off the top of my head I can think of that probably won't die from Greenflame Blade.

If others here think Greenflame Blade is too powerful, then remove the ability bonus to damage on the initial strike.  If it just does [W] damage fire and then strength modifier damage to all adjacent, it won't be better than cleave.  It'll clearly be more advantageous for minions, but at a disadvantage for direct damage.


----------



## FadedC (Jul 23, 2008)

Nikodemus said:


> The aegis of shielding is nice, but lets not overstate it. Even a lowly hobgoblin soldier gets through to damage with an average roll against the aegis.




Well assuming a 7 point shield, the average soldier hit does 2.5 damage. While it's true that this is getting through the shield, it's also true that this damage is low enough that the soldier is for all intents and purposes out of the fight.


----------



## Slaved (Jul 23, 2008)

A Group consisting of three Shielding Swordmages plus a Healing Based Cleric and a Tactical Warlord looks like a lot of fun!!


----------



## keterys (Jul 23, 2008)

Really? It sounds dreadfully boring. Ah, missed all the s


----------



## Majoru Oakheart (Jul 24, 2008)

Keep in mind, you only get to activate your power as a swordmage if the target that you've marked attacks someone other than you.  I still see that in the vast majority of the time a monster you've marked will be attacking you.


----------



## Fedifensor (Jul 24, 2008)

keterys said:


> Actually, it was 8 of 39 minions. I have a spreadsheet. Some types repeat, however (like, Legion Devils and Angels of Valor have multiple leveled versions) - I'm not sure that changes the point, though



Any epic-level minions with Resist Fire of 20 or less shouldn't count, as any Swordmage with Greenflame Blade will take the Irresistible Flame feat.


----------

