# Buffy series finale (spoilers)



## uv23 (May 20, 2003)

So what do y'all think? I liked certain bits but I found myself very unsatisfied at the end. Disclaimer: the following ocmments could be perceived as serious bitching. 
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I liked the way in which Anya died. Very brutal. Don't get me wrong - I liked her character, but its always good to see a few main characters bite it at the end of a show for dramatic impact. I feel that more should have gone though. 

I like how Spike turned into a living bomb. Spike has alwasy been one of my fave characters. Still, his exit seemed a bit too rushed. The scenario also makes us wonder if W&H wanted Angel to use the amulet so that he would get himself killed in the process.

And thats about it for things I liked. 

Angel's appearance was no more than a cheesy cameo which was of great dissapointment. 

A lot of the dialogue seemed forced and there was generally bad acting all around. The going shopping dialgoue was awful and everyone seemed pretty underwhelemed, especially Xander considering the death of Anya, by the end of it all. (And don't give me theories about being in shock.. it was just plain weak)

But the worst part of it was that there was no closure at all with the First or with Caleb! Nothing was said or answered about either of them. Rather it just came down to a boring fight with a bunch of half-assed ubervamps. So all of those useless lead up episodes are made even more useless. Caleb is nothing more than another gimp being led around by the nose by some unknown force rather than an interesting character that could have been fleshed out. And the first evil? Well, not much power there after all.

Anyways its early and thats all I have to say for now.


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## ToddSchumacher (May 20, 2003)

I haven't seen it yet, though I'm up on the spoilers and have read a summery of the Wildfeed, So I know what to expect. This year (WHile starting great, and had some neat concepts, and episodes) just didn't lead to my expectations. But then I'm a fanatic and have (Probably) high expectations. And any (Percieved) lack of quality in the past season (Or two) can be chocked up to everyone more or less ready to move onto other things and being very stressed out and sleepy (Read any interview with Joss and you can see it, with him anyway).

(God, can I add anymore parenthises?)

I'll wait for my official comments on this ep. after I actually watch it. Either way I'm really gonna miss my Buffy watchage. Thank god for DVD. (And FX)

()


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## IceBear (May 20, 2003)

I enjoyed the scene where they were playing D&D.  Andrew, of course, was the DM 

I do agree that there was a lot of unanswered questions.  Lots of things hinted at earlier in the season don't seem to be addressed at all.

I also thought it was odd that one Ubervamp did so much damage before, and yet they were mowing through an army of them with little problem - even "normal" people like Giles and Xander.

IceBear


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## uv23 (May 20, 2003)

IceBear said:
			
		

> *I enjoyed the scene where they were playing D&D.  Andrew, of course, was the DM
> *




Doh how could I forget that one.  Yes, I loved the scene and how at first you think they're discussing tactics for the coming battle. Great scene. Andrew was definitely a positive addition to the cast in the final days.


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## myrdden (May 20, 2003)

Some Spoilers




I pretty much agree with uv23.  The episode had some fun scenes but overall it was very underwhelming and contrived.  The ubervamps were not uber at all, there seemed to be little emotion from anybody and I am still not sure what to think about making slayers all over the world.

Oh well...I guess it's over.

Myrdden


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## Jemal (May 21, 2003)

the ep just started here, so I'll be back in an hour with my thougths.  And I'm taping it in case there's anything that i'm unsure of.


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## Mark (May 21, 2003)

...I figured he wasn't down for the count...


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## Wolf72 (May 21, 2003)

didn't read any of the spoilers ... especially since it's on right now! (well commercial time anyways).

I've been LMAO for the first 20m though!



btw, I think andrew _should_ be given the amulet!


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## Mark (May 21, 2003)

SPOILERS!!!!
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They're GAMING!!!!! w00t!!!!!!


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## Crothian (May 21, 2003)

I want conversions of everything they mentioned!!!


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## Crothian (May 21, 2003)

Too bad casting the spell and then going in was impossible....


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## Morrus (May 21, 2003)

So...

SPOILER
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Spike's *not* going to be in Angel, then, huh?


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## Crothian (May 21, 2003)

Well, from reading thee articles it seems that he is.  I imagine if it does turn out to be true, it will be explained at that point.

Edit: Maybe the Powers that Be bring him back and bless him with the visions like Cordy has


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## Samnell (May 21, 2003)

I am displeased. Willow was good, but the rest...yech. I tried to get involved, I really did. I haven't liked this season much, but I was willing to go to bat for Joss tonight.

I knew things were wrong when Angel turned out to be a cameo role.


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## Mark (May 21, 2003)

I smell sequel and/or movies...


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## Crothian (May 21, 2003)

It wasn't that bad.  They kept it simple and answered the questions that need answered.


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## Wolf72 (May 21, 2003)

I'm expecting to see spike crawl out of rubble somewhere and be really po'd about being buried

"bloody hell, wait to see the end ... I think not! ... If I'd I wasn't going to do completely die, that is"


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## Fiery James (May 21, 2003)

Most importantly, TROGDOR the BURNINATOR!!!


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## DanMcS (May 21, 2003)

So that was all we get from Angel?  A walk-on?  Too bad.

I liked when they had it down to just the main four, talking about what to do tomorrow.  What they started with.  The bit about going shopping, that was a direct copy of the pilot episodes, at the end of Welcome to the Hellmouth the three kids walk away talking about something inane and Giles says "The world is doomed."  I liked the way they did that.

So, did I miss something, they didn't actually touch the First, just wipe out its army, right?  That's a bit of a let-down.  Though without mortal agents to run around on the surface, I guess it has been stopped for a long time.

Do you think this new reality, with slayers all over the world, will be reflected in the next season of Angel?


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## Crothian (May 21, 2003)

DanMcS said:
			
		

> *So, did I miss something, they didn't actually touch the First, just wipe out its army, right?  That's a bit of a let-down.  Though without mortal agents to run around on the surface, I guess it has been stopped for a long time.
> 
> Do you think this new reality, with slayers all over the world, will be reflected in the next season of Angel? *




That's all the first every had.  Remember, it was the division in the Slayer Line that allowed the First to take actyion.  Now the Slayer Line is fixed in a completely new way.   The first was defeated, just not killed.  

And who knows what 5th season is going to bring for Angel.


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## WizarDru (May 21, 2003)

Fiery James said:
			
		

> *Most importantly, TROGDOR the BURNINATOR!!! *




BEST. QUOTE. EVAR!

Great episode.  I've got to ask, though, if you read all the spoilers and read a writeup from wildfeed, doesn't that strike you as kind of putting the cart before the horse?  

Nice set up to allow sequels or movies, but resolved most of what needed to be resolved.  Very happy with the 'I'm Every Slayer' concept.  A good resolution to the series, especially the destruction of Sunnydale.

As far as Spike is concerned....death by magic item is perhaps the most impermanent type of death.


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## Chun-tzu (May 21, 2003)

Well, the story was more or less fine, but it was definitely not the ultimate Buffy storyline. Same complaints as before: some important characters vastly underused almost all season (especially Angel, in these last two), too much inconsistency (the ubervamps that were more powerful than any single slayer before were pretty wimpy, even Xander fought one off), and some poor pacing.

Activating all the potentials was fine (I think many of us saw it coming), but I didn't find how they did it very convincing. First, they introduce some mysterious super-weapon from nowhere. Then, they use it to do activate all the potentials, although there was nothing at all to suggest how they knew they could do this at all.

Spike doesn't believe that Buffy loves him? What? Where did this come from? I could see it with Riley, and what's more, Riley was right. I just don't see where this was coming from.

And they didn't know anything about the amulet's power, right? In other words, Buffy and the others had no plan, other than a big fight? And of course, the First was never really defeated? Ugh.


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## KenM (May 21, 2003)

I missed it, can someone please tell me what was said with the DnD and Trogdor scene? When will UPN or FX run it again?


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## Chun-tzu (May 21, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *BEST. QUOTE. EVAR!*




I really enjoyed the Trogdor reference!

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			Nice set up to allow sequels or movies, but resolved most of what needed to be resolved.  Very happy with the 'I'm Every Slayer' concept.  A good resolution to the series, especially the destruction of Sunnydale.
		
Click to expand...


*
The female empowerment thing was good, but I didn't care for the anti-men edge that was in there. You don't have to be against men to be pro-female.


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## Jemal (May 21, 2003)

ANGEL Spoilers... (Maybe)
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Spike on angel.. I've read 3 spoilers of the final episode, and 2 of them said that the very last scene of the Buffy finale would be a hand coming out of the rubble... Now since they were right about the other parts of the show, I'm assuming Joss took the hand part out last minute b/c it was too obvious..
Course then again the whole Spike turning into dust thing IS a bit confusing.
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END Spoilers, enter thoughts.

I liked lots of parts... one of my fave scenes: 
Giles: "Oh bugger it, I'll fight."  *rolls a d20*.

Also liked the scene where Giles, Buffy, Xander, Willow were standing in the corridor, then the all slowly split off one by one.  had a sense of finality to it i thought.. course that could just've been cuz I knew it was the final ep..

I also gotta say, Spike - My favourite character of the entire Series, that was just about the PERFECT way for him to go out.  
"He he... I wanna see how this ends"... HAHAHAHABOOM

Also when willow collapsed after doing the spell.  "That was nifty"

I guess there was just a lot of little funny parts.  Over-all it wasn't quite what I hoped for, but I liked it.

Also something else I noticed.. The first few who went up the stairs and started fighting were the uber vamps, but after a few of them died all the guys upstairs suddenly started fighting Bringers.


And one final thought... The first didn't 'die' cuz he/she/it basically CAN'T die, so won't she just move to the Cleaveland hellmouth?


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## Crothian (May 21, 2003)

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> *And they didn't know anything about the amulet's power, right? In other words, Buffy and the others had no plan, other than a big fight? And of course, the First was never really defeated? Ugh. *




Wasn't that the plan for most of the Big Bads?  And the first was defeated, it was unabler to conquor the world and become solid.  Sounds like a win in my book.


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## Chun-tzu (May 21, 2003)

Crothian said:
			
		

> *Wasn't that the plan for most of the Big Bads?  And the first was defeated, it was unabler to conquor the world and become solid.  Sounds like a win in my book. *




I don't remember the finale of Season 1 very well.
Season 2 it was Angel, pretty even match. I guess there was no real plan.
Season 3, she used explosives against the Mayor.
Season 4, she combined with the others against Adam.
Season 5, she beats Glory using the hammer, and had a plan to rescue Dawn, at least.
Season 6, there wasn't much time for any plans, and Xander defeats big bad Willow.

I agree that the foreshadowing in earlier episodes seemed to imply more. In Conversations with Dead People, Buffy's mom (so was that really the First?) tells Dawn that Buffy wouldn't choose her, that Buffy would be against her. That whole thing doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It did foreshadow Buffy's trying to send Dawn away, but that's about it.


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## Crothian (May 21, 2003)

Buffy sent Dawn away, Dawn didn't want that.  So Buffy was against it.  None of the other seasons really ended with plans outside of season 4.  The rest they gathered weapons and fought.


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## Piratecat (May 21, 2003)

What we thought they were going to do is kill and resuscitate Buffy at the hospital, again and again, until all of the Slayerettes also became Slayers. What they did instead was a bit less satisfying to me, but still fun.

We enjoyed it. I haven't seen all of this season, but I thought it was a good way to end the series. The scene with the four of them bantering, obviously scared to death, we thought was great.


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## KidCthulhu (May 21, 2003)

Dunno.  I did like it.  A great deal.  And I just wanna bask in the afterglow right now.  Maybe cuddle a little.  Not analyze too much.

But it does bug me that after a season in which the "team that can fight anything" can't get their heads out of their a**es to do any research, the frobulon of power has to come from an outside source at the last minute.  It would have been so much more powerful if the Scoobies had found it themselves.

The Spike is dead.  Long live the Spike.


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## Chun-tzu (May 21, 2003)

Crothian said:
			
		

> *None of the other seasons really ended with plans outside of season 4.  The rest they gathered weapons and fought. *




I guess you're right (although Season 3, luring the Mayor into a library full of explosives, was definitely planned). But this one was less satisfying, because of what DID happen. Yet another Deus Ex Machina gets pulled out, in the form of the Amulet. If they had some idea that the Amulet would close the Hellmouth, then okay. The story just didn't flow all that naturally, despite having several good points.


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## Shallown (May 22, 2003)

I felt the episode was meant to be 2 hours. Having it be an hour rushed a lot of things. I also think it ended in a less than satisfing way becuase of the rush.

the only real spot on parts where the ones I laughed at. Every laugh in that episode was , to me, definitave to the character. The gaming, Dawn kicking her sister, the conversation in thehall with the 4 etc.. where showcases of the characters.

Other than that I was dissappointed. I expected more. the uber vamps should have been like 50 not hundreds and been much more scary than they were. 

just my thoughts.
later


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## zyzzyr (May 22, 2003)

Hey,

I'm pretty new to the Buffy phenom (didn't start watching until 2 months ago).  I've managed to see some of first, and most of 2-4th season (Space shows nightly, is mid-5th season now).

The finale was good, but not great.  Wasn't spectacular, but was good.

A few things I thought were interesting:

1) Buffy's "every girl who can be a Slayer, will be a Slayer" : This seemed as if it was planned and written from the first episode.  It echos Joss' wish that girls learn from Buffy and become independent because of it - live up to their full potential.  This brings me to point #2 ...

2) There are now *hundreds* or possibly *thousands* of Slayers running around?  Whoa, wait a minute!  Faith was a Slayer, and she went rogue.  How many of these Slayers will go rogue without a Watcher?  How is this going to affect continuity on Angel?  (Although I never understood why Jasmine's presence wasn't experienced in Sunnydale - at least not that I saw).

3) Xander's line "That's my gal - always doing the stupid thing."  Errr ... what?  That didn't seem very like either of them.  He also didn't seem too bothered by it - making jokes a few seconds later.  This "alternate script" has Xander dying, Anya making above comment - that makes more sense to me.

4) Where did all those Bringers come from?  I didn't think that they were in the Hellmouth ...

5) Angel appearance - lame.  No oomph.  No reason.   Although Buffy's "go all Dawson"  was *hilarious*.

6) I expect the amulet will be explained on Angel next season, as Marsters is now supposedly a regular ... ?

7) Spike's "No, you don't ... but thanks for saying it."  was vindication to all Spike fans (I am one of them).  Although I don't know if Spike would have said "I want to see how this ends" ... he has a knack for self-preservation.

8) Trogdor reference funny ...  DnD reference funnier.  Giles playing, funniest.

9) Unresolved prophecy from Dawn's mother's ghost ... was it the First or a real propechy?  Bad.

10) Finally ... Faith and Wood funny.  Faith needed a come-uppance.  Even a little one.  An interesting spin-off w/ Wood and Faith would be interesting.

A few extra notes: Kennedy is a boring character.  

But I agree, it seemed like it should have been a two-hour episode.


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## zyzzyr (May 22, 2003)

Stupid databse connections.


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## zyzzyr (May 22, 2003)

Stupid, stupid database.


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## The Grumpy Celt (May 22, 2003)

So how was Sunnydale destroyed? I thought all the "civilians" had already left town.

Can someone offer some detailed episode spoilers?


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## KnowTheToesToe (May 22, 2003)

Ok, I had a few problems with this... 

Spike cannot return to Angel - it would totally cheapen the reason he died. He didn't die like Angel did the 2 times Buffy killed him - Spike went up in smoke....end of story. But I guess that if Lila can return after getting her head chopped off in Angel, then anything is possible. (dumb, but possible) 

Buffy should have died. She had a sword completely pass through her abdomin....COME ON....if the Ubervamps were not getting up b/c of a sword in the gut, then Buffy should not have suddenly had this burst of energy. 

If Buffy wasn't going to die, then Faith should have. Just an opinion. 

I agree with others - I didn't like Kennedy. Too bossy. Couldn't see Willow "liking" someone so very strong. Willow was too mousy for someone so outgoing. Plus the age difference bothered me. To me, I saw Kennedy as being much younger than Will - maybe not in age, but definitely in intelligence/maturity. 

Angel should have just stayed in LA. His being on the last 2 Buffy's was just a ratings getter. I liked his lines, but the role didn't need to be regenerated. 

With all these "activated" slayers in the world - how is that going to be explained in Angel. I now don't see a real purpose for Angel and gang if all these slayers are out and about. They'll take care of the "big bads" in no time at all. Kind of a pointless thing to happen. 

When Buff and the girls entered the Hellmouth - anyone get deja vu to Lord of the Rings Orks? 

I thought Buffy's last line of the episode when asked what she's going to do now that she's a regular girl should have been "I'm going to bake cookies". referring to the cookie speech to Angel.


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## Caliban (May 22, 2003)

I don't think it was D&D that they were playing, but rather Talisman, or some other fantasy boardgame.   That's what they board they were playing on looked like, and they seemed to be competing against each other.


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## Henry (May 22, 2003)

Caliban said:
			
		

> *I don't think it was D&D that they were playing, but rather Talisman, or some other fantasy boardgame.   That's what they board they were playing on looked like, and they seemed to be competing against each other. *




I dunno - Giles was "guarding the door" and backing up Xander, so it looked more cooperative to me. Plus, while the general audience would have probably gotten a D&D reference, another more esoteric game I doubt would have been interpreted as such. I'm still thinking it's D&D, unless someone confirms otherwise.


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## physics_ninja (May 22, 2003)

Fiery James said:
			
		

> *Most importantly, TROGDOR the BURNINATOR!!! *





Could someone please explain this Trogdor reference?  I have no idea what he/she/it is.

As for the episode ... disapointing and satisfying.

The satisfying parts:  the roleplaying scene, Anya's death (she had to die because she was the one who was always talking about dying), Andrew's survival (cuz, he never thought he would), Buffy telling Spike "I Love You" (I'm really glad they did this since Cassie told Spike that she would) and the total destruction of Sunnydale (nothing else would be worthy of deafeating the First).

The disapointing parts:  Angel's cheesy cameo, The Slayer Axe Deus ex Machina, the Amulet Deus ex Machina, Calib's "I'm not dead yet!" return, and the Everyone's a Slayer spell which Willow apparently pulled out of thin air.  If it were that easy, I think it would have been done a long time ago.


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## John Crichton (May 22, 2003)

I thought it was a fitting end to the series.  It wasn't the ending to end all endings, but I enjoyed every second of it.  I loved the subtle references to the series' beginnings, the return of Angel and Buffy's (to me) Cookie Dough speech was a great bookend to her relationship with him and to being a Slayer in general.

The D&D/Trogdor scene had me in stitches.    The gathering of the Big 4 near the end was great.  I wish they hadn't showed the White Willow moment in the teasers because that was a powerful scene; I enjoyed it anyway.  The battle which I thought was going to be a little flat, actually blew me away.  Buffy getting up from a sword to the back worked for me.  She's been through worse and still kept fighting.

I had little problems with the episode, but I chalk it up to a season that wasn't Season 2 or 3.  There were a few (for Buffy) dud episodes in there and it seemed like the second half of the season was walking waist-deep through mud.  Had the follow-up been stronger, I have a feeling that people wouldn't have such issues with the finale.

Honestly, I was on my feet for the last 10 minutes.  I didn't need complete closure on this show because I like the characters to keep living on in my mind.  Plus, there have been talks about feature films and more spinoffs and the like.

I look back on the last 7 years that Team Joss has given us with Buffy and I just smile.  The highs were much more numerous than the lows and I will seriously miss this show.  They ended it at the right time.  Not perfect, but a fitting end.

Salute!


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## Wayside (May 22, 2003)

zyzzyr said:
			
		

> *
> 2) There are now *hundreds* or possibly *thousands* of Slayers running around?  Whoa, wait a minute!  Faith was a Slayer, and she went rogue.  How many of these Slayers will go rogue without a Watcher?  How is this going to affect continuity on Angel?  (Although I never understood why Jasmine's presence wasn't experienced in Sunnydale - at least not that I saw).
> *




I don't think so.  While eventually there should be a lot of slayers, the First took care of most of them before Will did her thing.  Aside from those that survived the big fight, there shouldn't be more than a handful left around the world.  Ones that Bringers never found.

I liked the episode overall.  I was somehow under the impression that it _was_ going to be a 2 hour finale, so that was disappointing.  Spike's exit was great, wish there was more focus on it.  Mostly there was no resolution, which I hate, but I'm also glad it happened that way.  Buffy's story isn't over.  She just saved the world.  _Again_.

Hopefully there will be at least one movie, and they'll spend a LOT of time getting the script perfect.


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## Chun-tzu (May 22, 2003)

A lot of the little things can be ignored. Say we forgive character inconsistencies, and the multiple deus ex machinas. There are still at least 3 important plot points from earlier in the season that were never resolved:

1. Dawn's conversation with her mom (or the First). "Joyce" was clearly foreshadowing something, and talked about Buffy being against Dawn, and "not choosing" her.

2. You know, we never really found out what the First's PLAN was. It supposedly had reasons that it didn't want to just kill Buffy, her friends, and the potentials. It had plans of some kind for Spike.

3. What was the thing about an anomaly? I think it was something the First had alluded to, but I'm not sure. There was a lot of speculation, like that it referred to Buffy's (second) return from the grave, or the simultaneous existence of two Slayers, or Dawn.

I'm just curious as to what the heck happened to all these things. Were they making it all up as they went along? (I doubt it.) If not, and they had plans, why were they dropped?



			
				physics_ninja said:
			
		

> *Could someone please explain this Trogdor reference?  I have no idea what he/she/it is.*




It’s a reference to this Flash animation:

http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail58.html

This website, Homestar Runner, is a favorite among many EN Worlders, at least.



> _Originally posted by Wayside_
> *Buffy's story isn't over. She just saved the world. Again.*




But from a character perspective, this event was much more. Buffy is no longer "The One." This means that she is free to live a normal life, without all the pressure to save the world and fight demons because she is the only one who can (except for Angel, of course). I think it makes for a much better ending than killing her off or removing her powers.


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## zyzzyr (May 23, 2003)

Wayside said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I don't think so.  While eventually there should be a lot of slayers, the First took care of most of them before Will did her thing.  Aside from those that survived the big fight, there shouldn't be more than a handful left around the world.  Ones that Bringers never found. *




Hmm, I hadn't really thought of it that way.  Two catches, though: they did show at least 3 or 4 non-characters (NPCs?) who obviously became Slayers.  Even if you assume a few others (maybe 20 in total?) and it's still way more than can be handled by one world.



			
				Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> *
> 1. Dawn's conversation with her mom (or the First). "Joyce" was clearly foreshadowing something, and talked about Buffy being against Dawn, and "not choosing" her.
> 
> 2. You know, we never really found out what the First's PLAN was. It supposedly had reasons that it didn't want to just kill Buffy, her friends, and the potentials. It had plans of some kind for Spike.
> ...




1. I believe that it is possible, unconfirmed, that "Joyce" was really the First, trying to sow discord.  I don't believe that - I think likely that it meant she chose Spike as champion over Dawn ... ?

2. See "alternate script" stuff below.

3. I had thought that the "break in the Slayer line" which is being referred to was that the existence of TWO Slayers meant that evil had to be upped to balance good and evil: hence, the First comes back.  Now that the First is gone, and there are many Slayers ... Good is overweighing big-time.

My own points ...

What is this "alternate script" floating out on the web?  (search for trogdor + buffy on google, it will come up).  I assume it is a false script that Joss leaked to throw people off the trail, or possibly one of the "fake" scripts written to keep the ending in suspense?

If there are elements of truth in it, then you can read it to get some resolution to other things ...

1) The First tries to sing to Spike during the battle.  Spike says "I don't like that song no more," and the First's plan is foiled.  Spike actually *hits* the First (but the First actually hits Buffy before this).

2) Dawn tries to take the amulet from Spike, believing that she should be the champion - Buffy chose Spike over Dawn.

3) Xander dies.  Anya lives.

4) A hand comes out of the rubble of the school at the end of the show.

5) The First appears as Joyce during the battle.  The First appears as the Caleb/Master/Glory/the Mayor/Angel during Buffy and the First's basement chat.

6) Buffy gives some sort of speech as to Dawn/Faith/Buffy being all joined together somehow, and that all three would need to die before a new Slayer is called.

Can be seen here ...

http://www.buffy.nu/article.php3?id_article=731

If it IS real, and I assume it is - it came out before it aired - then I assume that Joss wrote those things down to "resolve" the "discrepancies" for the fans who care enough to read it.


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## Vocenoctum (May 23, 2003)

here's what I posted to Nutkinland while EN was dead;
They never explained what the anomaly was.

They never actually defeated the First.
(If you had to spill blood to release an Uberdemon, why weren't they sacrificing a lot more people. Why didn't he work to free them? If the Uber's were not important, what's the entire point?)

They spent the entire season with episodes that dragged with no advancement, then the final episode is rushed?

The guy that chopped Anya did it with a nice torso splitting, why did the Uber that stabbed Buffy use a wussy little stomach poke?

Another guy I know complained because they never explained why The First didn't simply blow up the Summer's house a lot sooner.

So, all those at the end getting imbued all over the world, they were all Proto-slayers? The line was never in danger?

Probably the funniest episode of the season, the Angel/ Spike stuff was great, the D&D game was hilarious. The battle sucked, and the show ended on it's typical "girl power" vibe. At least the guys got to do something besides stand for male oppresion this time. icon_smile.gif

This season was one big plot hole; the sycthe, the old lady in the temple that never existed, Caleb getting into that temple and going unnoticed, the anomaly that weakened the slayer line...

Oh, and when they skipped over the proposal to use it for drama later, we were all wondering if they'd finally decided to pull the "drown the slayer, revive her, drown the next slayer, revive her" thing icon_smile.gif

Willow using more Ubermagic really just left a bad taste. Might as well have made Willow a Slayer too, why the hell not!


----------



## Wayside (May 23, 2003)

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> *2. You know, we never really found out what the First's PLAN was. It supposedly had reasons that it didn't want to just kill Buffy, her friends, and the potentials. It had plans of some kind for Spike.
> *




Well, the First's plans for Spike were spoiled several episodes before the finale.  Remember, when Wood tried to kill him?  As for wanting to kill Buffy and the potentials, I think things had to be done in a certain order, otherwise the First couldn't capitalize on the newfound vulnerability of the Slayer line.



			
				Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> *
> 3. What was the thing about an anomaly? I think it was something the First had alluded to, but I'm not sure. There was a lot of speculation, like that it referred to Buffy's (second) return from the grave, or the simultaneous existence of two Slayers, or Dawn.
> *




Well, given the ending, I think we can pretty much say now that it was the existence of multiple Slayers.. though considering the fact that there have been two since the end of Season 1, it's odd the First was just then showing up with the big bad plan.  Still, assuming that the First (since the end of Season 1) was killing off potentials all over, it's earlier appearance (where it tried to turn Angel and then kill him) sort of makes more sense, even though Spike ended up being the champion, not Angel.

Anyway, the vulnerability of the Slayer line was fixed (or overwritten, anyway) when Willow activated all the potentials.  It certainly could have been made clearer (and I wouldn't have minded them explaining the mechanics of it all), but to wrap everything up they really needed a 2 hour finale, which they should have had.  Damnit.



			
				Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> *
> But from a character perspective, this event was much more. Buffy is no longer "The One." This means that she is free to live a normal life, without all the pressure to save the world and fight demons because she is the only one who can (except for Angel, of course). I think it makes for a much better ending than killing her off or removing her powers. *




From a character perspective Buffy is The One, always was The One and will always be The One.  She is the focus of the story.  The series is named for her.  There are other Slayers now, but none are anywhere near her in terms of power.  She isn't just going to kick back and have a Corona now that there are more,  just like having Faith around didn't change much.

In terms of the Slayer line Buffy hadn't been 'The Slayer' since she died the first time and Kendra was called.  But she has always been The One.


----------



## MattyHelms (May 23, 2003)

RE:  Spike and the amulet

If I remember correctly, one of the main reasons Wolfram & Hart were after Angel was because of a prophecy that a vampire with a soul would stand with the Slayer as a Champion and close the Hellmouth.  The vampire's reward?  To become human.  I don't think Angel knew this when he gave the amulet he received from the retreating Wolfram and Hart.  This is from a few seasons ago on Angel, so I don't think it will be cheap for Spike to return.

Later,
Matt


----------



## WizarDru (May 23, 2003)

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> *It’s a reference to this Flash animation:
> 
> http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail58.html
> 
> This website, Homestar Runner, is a favorite among many EN Worlders, at least.*




"I say, come on fhqwhgads, come on fhqwhgads. Everybody to the limit, the Cheat is to limit, everybody come on fhqwhgads!"


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## WayneLigon (May 23, 2003)

Wayside said:
			
		

> *....the First took care of most of them before Will did her thing.  Aside from those that survived the big fight, there shouldn't be more than a handful left around the world.  Ones that Bringers never found. *




This is my theory, and my observations; I have NOT watched any other episodes this season. In fact, the only ones I've seen are the ones on DVD. 

The implication is, I think, that there are a LOT of them now, more than enough to foil the ultimate plans of The First. And that it was always meant to be this way; not one per generation, but an army of Good to oppose the army of Evil. The Watchers, effectively, short-circuited the entire process and - perhaps even knowingly - brought about the current state of crisis. 

What she said was that everyone of all the women on Earth - with the potential to be a Slayer now is one; I'd think that would be a fair number, given the number of potentials they found just with their resources.


----------



## Gargoyle (May 23, 2003)

I watched the series faithfully through episodes 1-3, but work and other things kept me away.  Recently I started to catch up on the reruns.  I realized how much I love the characters and their development, even in the less than stellar episodes and seasons.  

The D&D scene had us howling with laughter, so maybe that's why I missed the Trogdor quote (Somebody post it if you can remember).  I liked the idea of Willow's spell, and Spike's sacrifice (and his usual wit).  The Angel cameo was pretty disappointing though, we wanted to see him fighting alongside Buffy _and_ Spike at the end.  

 I never watched enough episodes to figure out the whole plot of the final season, just a few, but even I could tell the plot of the last season was pretty weak.  Like many others, I really enjoyed the final conversations between the four before the last battle.  Brought me right back to the end of episode 1.  

Darn good series.  I'm glad it's on DVD.


----------



## danzig138 (May 23, 2003)

I thought it was really good. . .a fitting end to the series. Was it the best episode ever? No, series' finales usually aren't. I thought the acting was strong and dialogue very good. Nice to hear Joss writing again. It's certainly up there with some of my favorites.


----------



## Wayside (May 23, 2003)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> *The implication is, I think, that there are a LOT of them now, more than enough to foil the ultimate plans of The First. And that it was always meant to be this way; not one per generation, but an army of Good to oppose the army of Evil. The Watchers, effectively, short-circuited the entire process and - perhaps even knowingly - brought about the current state of crisis.
> 
> What she said was that everyone of all the women on Earth - with the potential to be a Slayer now is one; I'd think that would be a fair number, given the number of potentials they found just with their resources. *




It's certainly possible, but the first thing we saw in season 7 was Bringers killing potentials in different places all over the world.  The idea was that the few who escaped them found their way to Sunnydale (Giles rounded up a few and brought them too) where Buffy could protect them.  So, there shouldn't be many left in the world, assuming that there ever were a huge number of potentials to begin with.

The one per generation was the way it was meant to be, but that was the intention of, as Buffy says in the finale, a bunch of crotchety old dudes who combined weren't half as powerful as Willow, referring to an earlier episode in season 7 that you haven't seen yet, where we actually mmet the men who created the first Slayer (and hence, not referring to watchers at all).

The First's goal seemed only to be to end the Slayer line, which became vulnerable for some reason having to do with Buffy never explicitly stated, but generally assumed to be her dying and coming back, which allowed another Slayer to exist simultaneously.  The First said it could come into the flesh after it ended the Slayer line and overran the world, so I guess that was it's ultimate goal.  Anyway, Willow's spell that turned every potential into a Slayer effectively ended the vulnerability, so that's essentially how the First was defeated.  Killing the not-so-uber-anymore vamp army/collapsing the Hellmouth was just a bonus... series finale and all.


----------



## Samnell (May 23, 2003)

> The one per generation was the way it was meant to be, but that was the intention of, as Buffy says in the finale, a bunch of crotchety old dudes who combined weren't half as powerful as Willow, referring to an earlier episode in season 7 that you haven't seen yet, where we actually mmet the men who created the first Slayer (and hence, not referring to watchers at all).




The old lady in the temple who appeared only to be killed before saying anything of real consequence to the plot revealed that the old men who made the first slayer went on to be/found the Watchers. You know, the one in the temple no one noticed all these years but happened to be amazingly easy for Buffy, Caleb, Angel, and Spike to find.


----------



## Wayside (May 23, 2003)

Samnell said:
			
		

> *
> 
> The old lady in the temple who appeared only to be killed before saying anything of real consequence to the plot revealed that the old men who made the first slayer went on to be/found the Watchers. You know, the one in the temple no one noticed all these years but happened to be amazingly easy for Buffy, Caleb, Angel, and Spike to find. *




The (now defunct) watchers are a different organization though.  They knew nothing about the scythe.  They may have come from the source, but they sure lost that connection a long time ago.  No script for 7.21 online yet and I don't remember exactly what that particular plot device had to say though, so that's about all I can add.

The more I think about it the more I wish this change came in the middle of the series.  There are so many new directions Joss could take it now.. why couldn't he have run this arc earlier??  Hope we get a movie within a year or two.


----------



## John Crichton (May 23, 2003)

Wayside said:
			
		

> *The (now defunct) watchers are a different organization though.  They knew nothing about the scythe.  They may have come from the source, but they sure lost that connection a long time ago.  No script for 7.21 online yet and I don't remember exactly what that particular plot device had to say though, so that's about all I can add.*



I got the impression that the "temple" was somewhat makeshift and the woman only showed herself because the time was right.  


			
				Wayside said:
			
		

> *The more I think about it the more I wish this change came in the middle of the series.  There are so many new directions Joss could take it now.. why couldn't he have run this arc earlier??  Hope we get a movie within a year or two. *



It would have been nice to get more of this storyline but it would have needed a whole new season to really flesh out.  And I totally agree about the movie, it would be great to get one as soon as Joss-ly (read: written and directed by) possible.  Give this man a $100 million budget and see what he can do.


----------



## danzig138 (May 23, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *Give this man a $100 million budget and see what he can do.   *



A wicked cool Firefly movie?


----------



## Klaus (May 23, 2003)

This is from someone who hasn't seen the finale yet (hell, we're just passed the "is Spike biting people again" episode), but...

The New Slayers eventually hunt down every available vampire on Earth. A couple of centuries into the future, the vamps re-surface, and the first Slayer in 200 years is activated.

Her name is Melaka Fray, and she's the star of the Joss Whedon-scripted "Fray" comic book, published by Dark Horse.

Maybe this is what he intended all along?


----------



## John Crichton (May 23, 2003)

danzig138 said:
			
		

> *A wicked cool Firefly movie?  *



Fine by me.  I loved that show.  If he can do it for one movie the studios will surely give him more moolah to make another project.


----------



## KidCthulhu (May 23, 2003)

Yeah, yeah.  The plot holes could be used as a new superhighway, and we here in Boston wouldn't have had to pay for the "Big Dig".  But yet... how can you not love it.  It's always been about the characters, and the episode got that just right.

Except Kennedy, who has been a pain in the a**, inconsistently written little bitca from word one.  I bought her hitting on Willow, and Will being interested (she is cute).  But all the stuff with the kite and the string was just completely beyond her as a person.  Nothing she'd ever done indicated she had this kind of depth.  It's like Joss took a Tara line and gave it to someone else.  And the actress was not good enough to pull it off.  Blagh.  I was really rooting for her to bite it.


----------



## John Crichton (May 23, 2003)

I just watched the Buffy Finale again and I have to say that I still liked it an aweful lot, especially the last 15 minutes.  They nailed the show right there.  That final fight, to me, was better than anything that Matrix Reloaded showed me.  That fight had some heart.  It may not have looked as pretty or fluid as any of the fights in Reloaded but it had heart and guts.  People died, others were horribly wounded but it felt good and got a reaction out of me.

I'm not trying to start a Matrix/Buffy/Whatever debate here, I'm just commenting on my thoughts at the time.  It just makes me curious as to how much Joss could accomplish with the previously mentioned (read: dreamed up) high budget...


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 24, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *It would have been nice to get more of this storyline but it would have needed a whole new season to really flesh out.  And I totally agree about the movie, it would be great to get one as soon as Joss-ly (read: written and directed by) possible.  Give this man a $100 million budget and see what he can do.   *




My problem with that is... 
The whole season, we've had loads of Slow Moving episodes, where nothing happened. There's really no excuse to not give us more background sometime in there, IMO.

Why rush the ending so much when the whole season dragged?

Also, the old lady was part of an organization that made the axe, kept hidden from the Watchers while keeping their eyes on them.

They built an axe, hid it in a stone that only a slayer could remove it from, linked it somehow to a Slayer Force? I thought the Slayer's power's came from a demon.
Why didn't they do it sooner? (The old women)
Why did they hide the axe away from their temple?
Why didn't they give her the axe 8 world saving's ago?

What did the writing in the other church have to do with it?

::shrug:: too many plot holes to make it good. There were some great moments though.


----------



## Sulimo (May 24, 2003)

Klaus said:
			
		

> *This is from someone who hasn't seen the finale yet (hell, we're just passed the "is Spike biting people again" episode), but...
> 
> The New Slayers eventually hunt down every available vampire on Earth. A couple of centuries into the future, the vamps re-surface, and the first Slayer in 200 years is activated.
> 
> ...




I expect so. Only 1 issue to go. I've really enjoyed it. Hopefully Joss will now have a bit more time to write some more about Melaka...assuming she doesnt bite the big one in the final issue.


----------



## Sulimo (May 24, 2003)

Well, I just got done watching it. For the most part I liked it. Quite a bit. Though I did have (and still do) have some issues...which included the de-powering of the Ubervamps...and the Medalion.

My main issue was with Spike. And how the knowledge that he'd be in Angel next year pretty much ruined his herioc death in Buffy.

I did wanta bit more closure to, given its the last ep. It felt more like the end of season three, as the start of a new chapter of the Buffy story rather than the end. Guess I wanted some kind of epilogue like in Babylon 5...a series finale that i adored and which still gets me a little teary.

Still, I have been moping around the house ever since sad comign to grips with the fact that the whole things over.


----------



## John Crichton (May 24, 2003)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> *
> 
> My problem with that is...
> The whole season, we've had loads of Slow Moving episodes, where nothing happened. There's really no excuse to not give us more background sometime in there, IMO.
> ...



I admit that the season as a whole wasn't great.  None of the recent season's hold up to Seasons 2&3.  However, I loved the ending but not the buildup.  There were holes and the axe was not the best plot element.  Doesn't change the fact that I really enjoyed the ending.  The problem with this season has been that it is a season of Buffy where we are used to much more than they gave us.  Doesn't change that it was still better than the majority of shows out there.

I choose not to dwell on the shortcomings of this season and have enjoyed the finale while celebrating all the joy and entertainment the overall show has given me over the years.


----------



## Sulimo (May 24, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *I admit that the season as a whole wasn't great.  None of the recent season's hold up to Seasons 2&3.  However, I loved the ending but not the buildup.  *




Hmmm...I'd actually rank this season highly. It's probably my fave season post High-school.


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## Volaran (May 24, 2003)

Just a thought based on the finale, and what I've heard of Fray.  As I recall, in the comic, there is an event referenced in the early twenty first century that causes the Slayer line to end.

Could this be it?

Hear me out.  They changed the line so that all potentials who could be summoned were in one great moment.  What if all the potential Slayer energy for hundreds of years was summoned all at once, rather than truely changing the nature of the Slayer?  The series ends on a good note, with a generation filled with Slayers.  My prediction, however, is that after this generation they simply die out instead of continuing the line...at least until Fray.


----------



## Wayside (May 24, 2003)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> *
> ::shrug:: too many plot holes to make it good. There were some great moments though.  *




Not so much holes as elements that just went completely unexplained.  A lot of stuff from left field.  All the eps that were a little slow this season could've been sprinkled with bits of information but oh well.  I'm still proceeding under the impression that it aint over, so I don't mind the lack of resolution so much.


----------



## John Crichton (May 24, 2003)

Sulimo said:
			
		

> *Hmmm...I'd actually rank this season highly. It's probably my fave season post High-school. *



Hey, that works for me.    I really, really enjoyed all the seasons of Buffy.  I can't wait to rewatch seasons 4-7 on DVD.  The only ones that stood out are 2 & 3.


----------



## WisdomLikeSilence (May 24, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *However, I loved the ending but not the buildup.  *




I've thought about it a bit, and I'll agree with Crichton here.

Almost all of my objections to the finale have to do with the season that preceded it.  If the season hadn't created so many plot holes and loose threads (the most egregious of which was the Joyce prophecy), then the final episode would have been a lot more satisfying.  But I can't really blame the finale for the poor build-up and lack of logic of the season.  There's only so much you can resolve in an hour.

And the finale did remind me why I love the show.  It demonstrated a sense of fun and respect for the characters that was sadly lacking during much of the season.  I've seen the episode twice and thoroughly enjoyed it both times.

In short, really good finale, kinda lousy season.

KidCthulu, I too was expecting them to whisk the slayers off to the hospital for a little "Flatliner" type death and resurrection.  Great minds and all that <smile>.

-WLS


----------



## KidCthulhu (May 24, 2003)

WisdomLikeSilence said:
			
		

> *KidCthulu, I too was expecting them to whisk the slayers off to the hospital for a little "Flatliner" type death and resurrection.  Great minds and all that <smile>.
> *




Hey, WLS!  The Flatliners idea was cool.  Plus, you have the whole exponential growth thing.  "They killed two friends, and they killed two friends" Bad 80's hair care commercial references abounded during the commercial break for us.


----------



## Cheiromancer (May 24, 2003)

Volaran said:
			
		

> *  The series ends on a good note, with a generation filled with Slayers.  My prediction, however, is that after this generation they simply die out instead of continuing the line...at least until Fray. *




That would constitute a victory for the First; a heads-I-win, tails-you-lose kind of scenario.  Either the line is maintained, in which case the First kills off all the potentials, and then the slayer; or the line is not maintained, which means it expires after a generation.  An entity which has existed as long as the First can afford to be patient.

Did you notice that all the potentials are young women?  Why are there no grandmotherly slayers?  Does the "potentiality" go away after adolescence, or what?


----------



## John Crichton (May 24, 2003)

Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> *Did you notice that all the potentials are young women?  Why are there no grandmotherly slayers?  Does the "potentiality" go away after adolescence, or what? *



Good question.  It can be assumed that Slayers don't last very long and that there have been many dead slayers over the years.  IIRC, Buffy has lived pretty long for a slayer.  And she has only been doing it for 8 years or so.  That, and an older slayer doesn't seem like she would be a very effective fighter so she would be killed off pretty quick...


----------



## Piratecat (May 24, 2003)

Want a little bit of geeky glory? They keep calling Buffy's weapon a scythe, but it clearly isn't. It's an axe - but with a spear head on the bottom. So what the heck...?

A quick trip to your friendly Player's Handbook clears up the mystery. What you're looking at, ladies and gentlemen, is a Dwarven Urgosh.

Damn, I need to get out more.


----------



## John Crichton (May 24, 2003)

In defense of the show, Angel did call it an "axe-thingy."


----------



## Cheiromancer (May 24, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *Good question.  It can be assumed that Slayers don't last very long and that there have been many dead slayers over the years.  IIRC, Buffy has lived pretty long for a slayer.  And she has only been doing it for 8 years or so.  That, and an older slayer doesn't seem like she would be a very effective fighter so she would be killed off pretty quick... *




Well, if all previous potentials had gone on to become slayers, they might have been killed off.  But I would have thought that most (or at least some) potentials were never actually called.  They should have gone on to live normal lives; at least some of them should reach old age.


----------



## Pielorinho (May 24, 2003)

zyzzyr said:
			
		

> *What is this "alternate script" floating out on the web?  (search for trogdor + buffy on google, it will come up).  I assume it is a false script that Joss leaked to throw people off the trail, or possibly one of the "fake" scripts written to keep the ending in suspense?*




I read somewhere that it was fanfic, pure and simple -- somebody got some leaks about the finale and parlayed the leaks, plus equal helpings of speculation and wish-fulfillment, into the "alternate script."  It apparently never saw Joss's hand.

Too funny, Piratecat! 

Daniel


----------



## John Crichton (May 24, 2003)

Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> *Well, if all previous potentials had gone on to become slayers, they might have been killed off.  But I would have thought that most (or at least some) potentials were never actually called.  They should have gone on to live normal lives; at least some of them should reach old age. *



It's never said how one becomes a potential slayer so I'd say there is really no clear answer.  However, my reasoning before is based on simple survival: A less than capable slayer wouldn't last very long at all.  It is possible that there are a bunch of middle-aged and older women out there that were once potential slayers.  I'm also going on the slayer legend of the slayer being a girl, which is a young female.  Maybe they have an expiration date?


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 24, 2003)

Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That would constitute a victory for the First; a heads-I-win, tails-you-lose kind of scenario.  Either the line is maintained, in which case the First kills off all the potentials, and then the slayer; or the line is not maintained, which means it expires after a generation.  An entity which has existed as long as the First can afford to be patient.
> 
> Did you notice that all the potentials are young women?  Why are there no grandmotherly slayers?  Does the "potentiality" go away after adolescence, or what? *




I'm not sure, but didn't it say in the show that now all potentials would be born as full slayers?


----------



## John Crichton (May 24, 2003)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> *I'm not sure, but didn't it say in the show that now all potentials would be born as full slayers? *



I think that any potential slayers currently alive would have active slayer powers.  There wasn't much said of the unborn...


----------



## zyzzyr (May 24, 2003)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I read somewhere that it was fanfic, pure and simple -- somebody got some leaks about the finale and parlayed the leaks, plus equal helpings of speculation and wish-fulfillment, into the "alternate script."  It apparently never saw Joss's hand.
> 
> Daniel *




Well, I am uncertain of the timing of the script ...  I was under the impression that it was "leaked" prior to airing.

HOWEVER, the "alternative script" is about 99.9% identical to the actual show script.  A few lines are added, and a few changed around (Anya says one thing instead of Andrew), but for the most part, it is identical.  Including the non-dialogue bits.

I doubt that it was "simply fanfic" - someone had to have had a copy of the actual script, or a copy of the show, and wrote out the dialogue.  It's possible they then altered a bit to make themselves happy, but it definitely began with the original.


----------



## AuroraGyps (May 26, 2003)

Here are my thoughts on the finale and the last season too:  I really liked the finale, but I was in tears about Spike going up in flames because he's become my favorite character.  I didn't have any problem with what Willow did to the Scythe (since it was basically a quickly put together plan... "here's the idea, find out if we can do it and let's go").  The fact that everyone, especially Xander, don't make a big deal out of Anya's death is ok because I think that during the whole season they've all been expecting that anyone could bite it at any time, so they've all kinda made their peace with that & each other... besides, they just broke Sunnydale so I'd think they're all a bit overwhemed and will really morn later.  And I've never really thought that The First Evil could be destroyed, because I think of it almost like a sentient emotion... an incorporeall embodiment of evil that found people that it could turn to it's cause and use for it's own purposes.  How do you kill evil? 
The only question I have from the season is about the thing with Joyce.  I think it was The First pretending to be her and just saying something to Dawn that would rattle her.  Dawn's been worried about being a part of the group before and she's always seemed insecure to me.  What I wonder is: What was it that  showed up with Joyce?  It had to be corporeal because it scratched Dawn's face and wrecked the place (although the latter could have been by magic, but The First never used magic right?).  Was it something that The First got so as to put on a good show or was it something else trying to prevent The First from tampering with Dawn?  Well, guess we'll never know.


----------



## Enchantress (May 26, 2003)

I was actually gone the night it was on so I had to tape it.  Thus, my being so late contributing to this thread.  My thoughts:  I was somewhat disapointed at the ep.  It was a good one, but really not worthy of being the season finale, much less the series finale.  I loved the big part that Spike had, and I even liked the idea that all girls in the world that could be slayers, now are slayers, and I really liked the heroic way that anya died.  And I laughed my butt off when the scene about D&D came on.  Kennedy was as annoying as ever, and I've been meaning to ask how the whole Faith/Wood thing started.  One minute their strangers/comrades, the next their doing it like there's no tomorrow.  (Although, In that particular ep. I guess there really might not have been a tomorrow.)  
I also liked the scene where Spike and Angel were acting childishly possessive, especially Spike's drawing of Angel.
And if I don't stop writing I am going to take up this whole page.  Sorry if I made you fall asleep.


----------



## Negative Zero (May 26, 2003)

Angel: "i had a soul fist!" 
LOL
that was just priceless. of course the DnD game was too cool. i think that Andrew is actually holding a PHB in that scene. there were several really good scenes in the finale, though i was still somewhat underwhelmed by it all. not really sure what i was expecting, but i know that i was expecting more.

here's my theory about Spike's death and his move to Angel. W&H want angel on thier side. so they give him their LA office, (inwhat looks like a seriously out of character move) and put him in charge. then they throw him a buffy bone and a trinket that "only he can use" (no reason to assume they know Spike has a soul) to go help her. now, assume Angel used the amulet; he's now extra dry toast.

what if, the amulet kills the vampire demon, but makes the human soul a slave to W&H? this would have put W&H back in control of the LA office, and put Angel securely in thier power. only now, Angel is still running the show, and now Spike is his bitch. ... whoops!  

~NegZ


----------



## Wayside (May 26, 2003)

Negative Zero said:
			
		

> *
> what if, the amulet kills the vampire demon, but makes the human soul a slave to W&H? this would have put W&H back in control of the LA office, and put Angel securely in thier power. only now, Angel is still running the show, and now Spike is his bitch. ... whoops!
> *




I *think* it was already mentioned in this thread that W&H were out to get Angel because a vamp with a soul was prophesied to aid the Slayer in averting the end of the world.  That vamp would then recieve his humanity back as a reward.  Turns out it was Spike, not Angel, but we'll be seeing him next season on Angel's show, now (in theory) a human, not a vamp.  The only thing I don't get is, if Spike came back and was human again, why the hell would he be kickin it in LA with Angel, when he could be with Buffy?  I can't imagine that after that ending, they shouldn't end up together.


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## AuroraGyps (May 26, 2003)

Oh, I forgot something I thought of since the last episode.  About Spike saying to Buffy that she doesn't love him (which, at the time, drove me nuts) that maybe he thinks she's actually in love with *Xander*!  All during the season he kept saying such wonderful things about her (well, except for just after he lost his eye, but I think he was still in shock emotionally ) and she heard some of it.  Those times she heard him, she'd get this look on her face that maybe Spike saw and realized what she herself doesn't know yet.  I wouldn't be surprised if something (film or written) in the future has those two togther or gets them together.  I mean, the season was about circles and things coming around again... who can't remember how big of a crush Xander had on Buffy in the beginning of the series?


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## KidCthulhu (May 26, 2003)

I think the Xander thing is pretty much dead, and Joss has said so on numerous occasions.  They are now just friends.  

However, my future relationship bet is for Dawn and Xander.  They share a lot in common, and clearly care deeply for eachother.  Dawn's still a little young, but in a few years...

As for why all the potentials are young women, sheer marketing.  No one will tune in to watch "Buffy, the saggy old lady who wears tight outfits".  Unless they want to make a spin off for the Golden Girls demographic.   Personally, I'd be really amused to see a Slayer/Soccer Mom.  Talk about having to juggle your schedule.


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## Vocenoctum (May 26, 2003)

Wayside said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I *think* it was already mentioned in this thread that W&H were out to get Angel because a vamp with a soul was prophesied to aid the Slayer in averting the end of the world.  That vamp would then recieve his humanity back as a reward.  Turns out it was Spike, not Angel, but we'll be seeing him next season on Angel's show, now (in theory) a human, not a vamp.  The only thing I don't get is, if Spike came back and was human again, why the hell would he be kickin it in LA with Angel, when he could be with Buffy?  I can't imagine that after that ending, they shouldn't end up together. *




I had a link (now lost) to some board where they had an interview with Whedon. Bascially he said they wanted Spike on the show for his appeal, but haven't worked out exactly how he'll get there...

Said they haven't ruled out the Shansu (sp?) Prophecy, but that they don't know if they'll use that.

It's been said that in some ways, high level D&D's allowance of raise dead and ressurection make death a bit redundant. I think the Buffyverse has already passed that point, so does it really matter anymore?

Spike's moment is a character defining moment in that he didn't know he'd be back. (If indeed he is, nothing is ever for certain.) Though, to be fair, I don't know that he had a choice in staying or in using the power of the amulet.

There's also always the chance of time travel or something, flashbacks as well.
Perhaps Past Spike will arrive here, so he won't have any feelings for Buffy at all, or.. something, I dunno. 

In the same interview, Whedon says he wanted to kill a character, so he chose Anya because Caulfield said she had no interest in playing the character again. Seems a bit of a cop out myself, but oh well.

Slayer's probably never survive long because they're silly enough to hunt vamp's at night. If they'd just follow them back to where they came from and whack them during the day, they'd probably last longer. 

Lastly, the finale defiently could have done with being 2 hours and not feeling as rushed, but then as I mentioned, the season was so slow during it's "arc" stories that they had plenty of time to expound on the plot elements. If they had gone into the Urgrosh a bit through research, and not brought in the temple from nowhere or the old lady who watches the watchers but never saw Caleb...

Ah well.


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## Angelsboi (May 28, 2003)

I would like to point out (forgive me if someone else did already as i didnt wade through Pages 2 and 3) ... 

Spike is coming back as a human.  For evidence i want to point out Angel 1.22 "To Shanshu in L.A."; the prophecy about a souled vampire who becomes human.

I also would like to point out that the three talking in the school about shopping and Giles saying the Earth is doomed, mirrored the end of The Harvest.


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## KnowTheToe (May 28, 2003)

Angelsboi said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Spike is coming back as a human.  For evidence i want to point out Angel 1.22 "To Shanshu in L.A."; the prophecy about a souled vampire who becomes human.
> 
> *




I am still hoping this is a false rumor.  Please, please Please.  I liked Spike, for the most part they did a great job with him, the last 2 seasons were not quite as good as in previous seasons, but by no means bad.


He was dusted, not sucked into a portal.  A dusted vamp is a dead vamp and besides that, he has played his part and I can't picture him really fitting in.  If you make him bad, been there done that.  If you make him good, why hang with Angel, they never clicked.  But, Joss can pull some good ones, who ever thought Wess would be such a kick ass character.


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## Angelsboi (May 28, 2003)

unless WBs Site is a giant hoax, im sorry.  He has been signed as a series regular now that Cordy is gone.


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## danzig138 (May 28, 2003)

Angelsboi said:
			
		

> *Spike is coming back as a human.  For evidence i want to point out Angel 1.22 "To Shanshu in L.A."; the prophecy about a souled vampire who becomes human.*



 I have yet to see anything definitive about this. Sure, a lot of people are speculating that Spike, not Angel, is going to be the vampire of the Shanshu prophecy, and it's possible, but it's also very possible that JW, knowing that a lot of people seem to be expecting this, will do something differrent. 



> *I also would like to point out that the three talking in the school about shopping and Giles saying the Earth is doomed, mirrored the end of The Harvest. *



Yes, it did. it carrieed on from it actually, since in Chosen, he said the Earth is definately doomed, and in the Harvest, he simply said the Earth was doomed. He apparently remembered his comment from 7 years prior.


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## Wayside (May 29, 2003)

Angelsboi said:
			
		

> *I would like to point out (forgive me if someone else did already as i didnt wade through Pages 2 and 3) ...
> 
> Spike is coming back as a human.  For evidence i want to point out Angel 1.22 "To Shanshu in L.A."; the prophecy about a souled vampire who becomes human.
> *




If you read the post directly above yours, you find mention of an interview with Whedon, where he says the WB wants Marsters for his appeal, and they are counting on Whedon to work out a way to bring him back.  The Shanshu Prophecy is a possibility, but Whedon sounds in the interview as if he'd prefer to work some other way out.  The prophecy may be good enough to bring Spike back, but it can't explain why he'd hang out with Angel over finding Buffy.


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## coyote6 (May 29, 2003)

I don't think anyone's mentioned it, but I liked that the Grr! Argh! Mutant Enemy monster at the end was actually animated for the last ep.


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## KnowTheToe (May 29, 2003)

The prophesy does not really work for bringing in spike because that has played such a major role in how groups have perceived Angel, if that change takes place they should rename it The Spike Show.


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## Angelsboi (May 29, 2003)

Well maybe the prophecies have been wrong all along.  Maybe the Vampire With A Soul who is a big player in the Apocalypse is actually Spike.

*shrugs*

Joss will work it all out.  I have Faith in Joss.


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## S'mon (Jun 12, 2003)

uv23 said:
			
		

> *So what do y'all think? I liked certain bits but I found myself very unsatisfied at the end. .. *




The episode has just aired for the first time on UK tv (Sky) a few hours ago.  I was seriously underwhelmed - I was concerned that maybe the new TV I bought wasn't doing it justice, but my wife confirmed that it just wasn't very good.  There was little of the old magic and sparkle.  Spike's exit could've been good (though I'd been spoilered, knowing he died) but the locket was set up so poorly with Angel's cameo, it didn't work very well.  The whole denouement relied on two gizmos, the locket and the magic axe/scythe, and a power never before hinted at & apparently pulled out of Willow/Joss's a**.   

I reckoned they were going to turn the Potentials into Slayers - I thought maybe by briefly 'killing' and reviving Faith, then each of them in turn - already established as a Slayer-multiplier.  Instead an almost-throwaway magic ritual solved everything.

The one good thing - the ep makes it much easier to play the Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG with multiple Slayers! 
And the Cleveland hellmouth was mentioned, which was nice.

Re the big hole in the desert, I kept thinking "er, Sunnydale was on the coast, shouldn't there be some _sea_ pouring into that hole!"


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## S'mon (Jun 12, 2003)

*



			I thought Buffy's last line of the episode when asked what she's going to do now that she's a regular girl should have been "I'm going to bake cookies". referring to the cookie speech to Angel.
		
Click to expand...


*
I don't think that would've sat too well with Joss's feminist message - whatever the message is (being strong is about being able to beat people up?) I doubt it involves baking cookies.

I liked it that Anya died, it made her "I'm terrified" speech very touching in hindsight.  A few more main-cast fatalities would've been nice, but not vital.  Maybe Xander & Anya, fighting back to back.   I guess they couldn't kill Dawn (*sigh*).


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## Ranger REG (Jun 12, 2003)

Here's my random thought on _Buffy_ series finale, which I have to say, should have at least been a two-hour event.

BTW, why is this a late review? I tend to tape my favorite shows. That way if I'm interrupted for some reason (emergency or otherwise), I can always go back to where I left off so I won't miss a single scene.

First off, Angel's appearance is not so grand. Just a cameo. I expected more, at least an alliance between Angel's group (sans Connor and Cordelia) and Buffy's. Or at the very least, expect some more bantering between two ensouled vampires, Spike and Angel.

As for the First, I expected her to step up her discord among the group, which would be a perfect opportunity to bring back some of the notable characters, like Buffy's and Dawn's mother, the former Mayor, former high school principal, Jonathon, Drusilla, Riley, etc.

As for the climactic battle that ended up with Spike using the amulet to destroy the ubervamps and himself in the process, thus bringing a destruction to the entire city of Sunnydale that left a crater ... feh. For some reasons, I expected Buffy to make the supreme sacrifice, even after having given all the Slayer's powers to all the women of the world through the use of the Scythe. She would have played her Slayer role up until the very end (she dies, her spirit can then defeat the First, who can't be touched in the real world). But that was not meant to be.

So after all that, what do I consider some of the shining moments?

A simple _D&D_ session involving Andrew (DM), Giles (plays a dwarf PC), and Xander (can't remember his PC), with the help of a high school girl (her PC is a sorceress). Sadly, she died in the climactic battle.

There is one thing you have to give TV series creator Joss Whedon, he won't do a traditional story ending. He likes to leave the audience pondering, "What's next?"

If I have to give a rating, I'd probably give it a 7 out of 10 stakes. It was decent, but still could have been a better ending for such a cult phenomenon.


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## Vocenoctum (Jun 13, 2003)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *Here's my random thought on Buffy series finale, which I have to say, should have at least been a two-hour event.
> 
> *




I kept getting that feeling too, it seemed rushed and such.

But, then I remember how slow the whole season has been, and can only think they could have done so much more then.

Heck, Angel could have stared in a whole episode.


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## Bagpuss (Jun 13, 2003)

Wayside said:
			
		

> *The prophecy may be good enough to bring Spike back, but it can't explain why he'd hang out with Angel over finding Buffy. *




Perhaps because he realises that it would never work with Buffy. Remember the "I love you." - "No you don't but thanks for saying it anyway." exchange.


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## Ranger REG (Jun 13, 2003)

Yeah. He's quite over her.


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## Jemal (Jun 15, 2003)

Here's a thought (probably not even a remote possibility, but a hope nonetheless).
Spike comes back as the Big Bad for Angel next season... Something screws up and he DOES come back as a human... but he's possessed by the first or looses his soul or something, and goes back to 'old-school' spike.

Sorry I know it'll never happen, It's just that I've been wanting a season with Spike as the BBEG since School Hard!!  A while ago, I actually stopped watching the series for about a year, and just happened to tune in to the ep where OZ left (During the Adam/Initiative season), and when I saw Spike standing on that hill saying "The big bad is back!" That's the SINGLE REASON I started watching again.

Course, then I got hooked by the series itself, but he's still the best character the show's ever had, and for most of it he was evil!  He'ld make an awesome BBEG

Um, I think I'm rambling here.. Spike tends to do that to me (Though the same can be said about Willow........ mmmm.... red....)
*slap*  thanks, I needed that.  I'll be going now. tata.


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## TwistedBishop (Jun 16, 2003)

Even a month past the air date, my hatred for the finale still burns brightly.

It's not the plot holes they never bothered to answer, the cheap plot devices (amulet and axe), or even the continued lifelessness of the main characters.

No, after a month, my problem is the finale just made no damn sense.  What was the plan?  How did they ever hope to win by charging in?  They had absolutely no idea that Spike's amulet would nuke every ubervamp in sight.  The finale of one of the best shows ever, and it amounted to "let's go into hell and fight, I'm sure everything will turn out fine!"  Maybe if Buffy hadn't seen the legion of ubervamps....maybe if a single one hadn't taken her 10 minutes to barely kill...maybe then it wouldn't have been so bad.   But it was.  Bad.  Really bad.  X-Files season nine finale-type bad.   If only they had managed to get the ubervamp fight into a court room.....

Blah.  Blah to wasted potential.


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## Ranger REG (Jun 16, 2003)

The plan is to break the Man's rule about having only one potential girl to be a Slayer at one time. After all, it is possible as evident with Faith and Buffy. So using the scythe and Willow's magic, she shares her power to every girls in the world, including the Potentials that are with her.


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## Wayside (Jun 17, 2003)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Perhaps because he realises that it would never work with Buffy. Remember the "I love you." - "No you don't but thanks for saying it anyway." exchange. *




Yeah, I didn't buy it.  Perhaps because of all the other exchanges they had in the episodes leading up to it.. "you're the only thing I've ever been sure about" and "he's in my heart" and all that.  They had a lot of moments in the last few episodes.

He was just being... Spike.

And then that STILL wouldn't explain why he'd be hanging out with Angel, would it?


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## Vocenoctum (Jun 17, 2003)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *The plan is to break the Man's rule about having only one potential girl to be a Slayer at one time. After all, it is possible as evident with Faith and Buffy. So using the scythe and Willow's magic, she shares her power to every girls in the world, including the Potentials that are with her. *




How does that plan WIN though?
Were the slayers going to kill the entire dimension of UberVamps?

They didn't know the Amulet did anything, so they didn't plan on it. In fact, they really didn't need to do anything, since Spike is the one that won...

If they'd known, a better plan would have been to sneak Spike in and Zap them.


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## John Crichton (Jun 17, 2003)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> *How does that plan WIN though?
> Were the slayers going to kill the entire dimension of UberVamps?
> 
> They didn't know the Amulet did anything, so they didn't plan on it. In fact, they really didn't need to do anything, since Spike is the one that won...*



Yup, her plan was to go in with a small army of Slayers and one soulled vampire and take them out.  Recall that she thought the mortality rate would be very high.  It was the only plan that offered them a chance to win.

TwistedBishop:  As for the ubervamp that took her a while to kill, once she figured out that it could be killed she had enough time to set up a viewing grounds for the SITs to watch her kill the thing.  Kinda proves that the ubers weren't all that tough, just harder to kill than normal vamps.

Ah, and as for the plan winning:  you take away the army, you take away the First's ability to invade and take over.


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## S'mon (Jun 17, 2003)

I agree that the plan seemed kinda dubious - at least Buffy's confidence in it - "We're going to win."  Why would she expect even 30 Slayers to defeat what appeared to be several thousand (non)-uber vamps?  Even if they were regular vamps - and in the final battle they appeared to be no noticeably better than regular vamps or even the Bringers -  they were bound to win by weight of numbers.  All I can think of is that she planned to kill lots of them and with hundreds(?) more Slayers in the world, impede the First's plans for a good while.  I didn't get the impression she expected her entire force to be killed though, it was more of a 'something will turn up' thing.  Not to mention there was no reason for Willow to not complete the ceremony until after they'd entered Hell, was there?


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## Skade (Jun 17, 2003)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *I agree that the plan seemed kinda dubious - at least Buffy's confidence in it - "We're going to win."  Why would she expect even 30 Slayers to defeat what appeared to be several thousand (non)-uber vamps?   *




My impression was that she did not come to this conclusion from any tactical superiority, but instead by the change in the First's demeanor.  She realized that for the first time she was not on the defensive, and more importantly that shift really seemed to have unsettled the First.  I admit I could be wrong, been some tie since I saw those episodes, but I really think it was psychological rather than tactical.


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## Skade (Jun 17, 2003)

double post...


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## TwistedBishop (Jun 17, 2003)

Exactly, it's inane and pointless.

Her plan was for 30 slayers to kill an entire dimension of ubervamps?  In just the brief bit of fighting they got to do, most of the potentials were wiped out (judging by how many escaped at the end).  And that was just after fighting a tiny fraction of the hell dimension's vamp population.  Did you see the wave of ubervamps when Spike's amulet went off?  It was suicide.  

I find it ironic that just a couple episodes before they made such a big deal about her total lack of planning with the wine cellar disaster.  Then, they just blindly accept her "melee one million ubervamps to death" plan.


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## John Crichton (Jun 17, 2003)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> *Exactly, it's inane and pointless.
> 
> Her plan was for 30 slayers to kill an entire dimension of ubervamps?  In just the brief bit of fighting they got to do, most of the potentials were wiped out (judging by how many escaped at the end).  And that was just after fighting a tiny fraction of the hell dimension's vamp population.  Did you see the wave of ubervamps when Spike's amulet went off?  It was suicide.
> 
> I find it ironic that just a couple episodes before they made such a big deal about her total lack of planning with the wine cellar disaster.  Then, they just blindly accept her "melee one million ubervamps to death" plan. *



I'm thinking that you're putting too much weight into the "We're going to win" statement she made before revealing the final plan.  Every leader has to at least think they are going to win to be effective at all.  Did she really believe it?  That is up to you.  I think she did on some level but it was a minor breakthru and one of the only positives to come her way in some time.  She was fully aware that they may loose no matter what.  She said it to Angel at the beginning of the ep.

Basically, she gave them a fighting chance.  It was revealed earler in the season that the First acted now because of something to do with the Slayer line.  The First harped on that fear again which tipped Buffy off to an idea.  Not all that unlike previous season finale plans which all involved fighting and violence.  It was a desperation move and pretty much their only option.  She decided to strike first given the opening she had.

And this was a much better plan than the wine cellar issue, which she happened to be right about.


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## TwistedBishop (Jun 17, 2003)

I'm not even thinking about the "We're going to win" line.   They were going to lose.  There was no chance.   If Buffy hadn't seen the huge army of ubervamps in a vision, it would have been slightly different.  At least she wouldn't have known it was a hopeless battle.  But she did. 

That Buffy is willing to throw their lives away pointlessly is the problem.  Compare that to the wine cellar, where at least Buffy thought Caleb had something of hers the first time.   There was some POINT to going in.  What was the point of going into hell to fight the ubers?  If you want to believe that 30 people can melee to death a million ubervamps rushing them, there's not much hope in arguing the logic of it. 

That their victory was in no way, shape, or form dependant on the slayers is another problem.  Spike's amulet won.  All the slayers did was alert the ubervamp population they were there and kill time.  This is a huge fault on the part of the writers.  Never before have they been so lazy with a finale.  Always in the past the main characters have took the initiative, decided what to do, followed through with it and saved the day.  That's the whole point of enjoying their victories.  Why choose for your big finale to have them fall backwards into it by happenstance?


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## Jemal (Jun 17, 2003)

About the "rush in and fight" plan: 
Buffy had 3 choices...
ONE: Wait for the uber-vamps to be released, and then try fighting them after they've been unleashed on the world.
TWO: Run, hide, and wait for the end of the world.
THREE: Rush in suicidally hoping that they'd be able to slow them down, maybe kill a lot of them, and basically hope that SOMETHING happens because they didn't have any other hope.

And about the spike's amulet thing.. Buffy knew it would do SOMETHING, she just didn't know what.  Angel wouldn't have brought it and said she needed a vampire with a soul to wear it if it wasn't important for something.  She KNEW it wasn't just a trinket, and so combined with the fact that she didn't really have any other choice, she took spike and the potentials into Hell, hoping for the best.

Could anyone here come up with a better plan, knowing only what she knew and having only those resources she had?


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## TwistedBishop (Jun 18, 2003)

You're considering the finale from where the writers dumped us off:  having no plan and loaded down with gimmicks.  That they wrote in no options for her is their fault, not ours for being unable to conjure one from their mess of a storyline.  I wouldn't have thought of blowing up Sunnydale high for the Mayor, of creating SuperBuffy for Adam, or of talking down Willow.  They pulled those off well.  It's a shame that for the big showdown it was left with "eh, something will come up".


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## John Crichton (Jun 18, 2003)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> *I'm not even thinking about the "We're going to win" line.   They were going to lose.  There was no chance.   If Buffy hadn't seen the huge army of ubervamps in a vision, it would have been slightly different.  At least she wouldn't have known it was a hopeless battle.  But she did. *



It obviously wasn't a hopeless battle because they won.  If you want to blame the writers for a crummy season and setup to the finale so for it but I see this as no different from the previous 3 times she saved the world.  Every single time a wildcard saved the day.

Against Adam they used a spell that they had no idea would do anything at all.  There were no assurances that she would win the day.

Against Glory she figured at the last second that she could sacrifice herself to win.  That wasn't any time of plan.

Against Willow she wasn't even there at the end.  Xander was the wildcard this time.

And this time it was Spike/The Amulet who was the wildcard.

Obviously, you didn't dig the final but your facts don't add up.  If you would as Jamdin said give us a better plan or a better plot go for it.







			
				TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> *That Buffy is willing to throw their lives away pointlessly is the problem.  Compare that to the wine cellar, where at least Buffy thought Caleb had something of hers the first time.   There was some POINT to going in.  What was the point of going into hell to fight the ubers?  If you want to believe that 30 people can melee to death a million ubervamps rushing them, there's not much hope in arguing the logic of it. *



We are talking about a show with vampires, werewolves, witches and a 95 pound girl who has superpowers.  30 vs. one million is hardly a stretch.  There's a reason she's a hero.


			
				TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> *That their victory was in no way, shape, or form dependant on the slayers is another problem.  Spike's amulet won.  All the slayers did was alert the ubervamp population they were there and kill time.  This is a huge fault on the part of the writers.  Never before have they been so lazy with a finale.  Always in the past the main characters have took the initiative, decided what to do, followed through with it and saved the day.  That's the whole point of enjoying their victories.  Why choose for your big finale to have them fall backwards into it by happenstance? *



If you can prove that the slayers had no effect, please so do.  We don't know how the amulet was activated.  It just used Spike as a vessel, there is nothing that says how it came to life.

And as for previous seasons I believe that I have already illustrated that there were wildcard factors all over the place in many of the finales, not just this one.  And there hasn't been a plan everytime.  Most of the time its just the Scoobies being there and doing there thing.  Was this season's ending as good as say 2 & 3, nope.  But it was entertaining.  I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it as much as some of us did.


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## LostSoul (Jun 18, 2003)

The finale was pretty much like every other episode:

1) Introduce monster.
2) Try to find out what it's all about.
3) Worry about monster, maybe complain that you can't kill it.
4) Buffy beats up monster.

There really wasn't any option other than Buffy fighting all those vampires toe-to-toe.  That would be a total departure for the entire series.

I lost faith in the show a long time ago (but loved the first three seasons, so I kept hoping it would turn 'round).  I really hated the whole "Glory" season, because in the end Buffy didn't have to die.  She should have just walked up to the god and smacked her around with the hammer.  Done and done.

So I wasn't really surprised at the poor resolution of the series.  And, if I was Buffy, I would have told the Army about the other dimension and had them fire some nukes in there.  Not like those "uber" vamps could do much against a tank.  So for me, the First = no threat.

First few seasons good, but at the end there wasn't really much imagination.


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## S'mon (Jun 18, 2003)

LostSoul said:
			
		

> *So I wasn't really surprised at the poor resolution of the series.  And, if I was Buffy, I would have told the Army about the other dimension and had them fire some nukes in there.  Not like those "uber" vamps could do much against a tank.  So for me, the First = no threat.
> *




Detonating a nuke within the Hell dimension would presumably have pretty much the exact same result as the amulet did, so calling the Initiative and getting military help would indeed seem like a logical approach.  Leading the new Slayers into the hell dimension would've made sense if there were some kind of known achievable objective there, withb which they could help - an enemy commander who could be killed, say, or a way to close the Hellmouth.  Since there was apparently no known achievable objective it didn't seem to make sense.  Even if they'd known what the amulet would do, Spike + a small bodyguard group would've made more sense, the rest of them should've just been watching the exit.  Talking of which, I couldn't understand why the Scoobies were scattered in small, easily killable groups about the school rather than at the actual hell-gate, the obvious point of defense.  BTW anyone know how Andrew wasn't killed, with Ubers in front, Bringers behind & Anya dead?


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 18, 2003)

Do you know if nukes and tanks do work in hell dimensions? 
And what would they cause? Mutated Ubervamps? 
(From a D20 Modern Perspective: Undead like Vampires don`t have a constitution score, and radiation sickness causes con-drain... )

Using conventional weaponry is usually not a valid option in Buffyverse. (The Sunnydale Initiative finally failed, even if it still exists after that season, and even they used special weapons. Only when buffy used that bazooka to kill that world destroying demon in Season 2 or 3 they used a normal weapon...)

Mustrum Ridcully


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## John Crichton (Jun 18, 2003)

Yes, it has been more or less proven that modern technology has little effect against most of the bad guys in the Jossverse.  With the one exception of The Judge everything else has to be taken down by more archaic means.  I venture to say that a nuke wouldn't have done a whole lot except kill a bunch of humans living outside Sunnydale.


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## S'mon (Jun 18, 2003)

I don't know where you're getting this 'modern weapons are ineffective' stuff from.  The Judge episode wasn't the only one to demonstate otherwise.  Bullets don't kill vampires, true - but I've seen a demon killed by a random pistol headshot in Angel, and a pistol bullet impact is a pretty small piece of damage.  Vampires can be killed by sunlight and fire - a thermonuclear blast creates heat similar to that at the heart of the Sun, more than enough to vapourise lots of vampires, while the overpressure wave will rip apart and bury plenty more. 

I quite agree they won't be affected by radiation sickness from the fallout, though.  

Re the Initiative - they were (or would have been) 'defeated' by their own arrogance in accumulating lots of live test subjects in their labs, combined with the efforts of their own creation, Adam.  Their tasers were apparently highly effective on all sorts of supernatural beasties.


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## Vocenoctum (Jun 18, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *It obviously wasn't a hopeless battle because they won.  If you want to blame the writers for a crummy season and setup to the finale so for it but I see this as no different from the previous 3 times she saved the world.  Every single time a wildcard saved the day.
> 
> Against Adam they used a spell that they had no idea would do anything at all.  There were no assurances that she would win the day.
> 
> ...




Against Adam, they had a powerful spell that they thought would work.

Against Glory they had a plan involving a robot and a god hammer. (the portal opening was unprepared for, and I don't want to argue the lack of logic in the whole Summers thing again, so I'll leave it there.)

Willow wasn't really that hard, they just had to get there.



> *
> Obviously, you didn't dig the final but your facts don't add up.  If you would as Jamdin said give us a better plan or a better plot go for it.We are talking about a show with vampires, werewolves, witches and a 95 pound girl who has superpowers.  30 vs. one million is hardly a stretch.  There's a reason she's a hero.
> If you can prove that the slayers had no effect, please so do.  We don't know how the amulet was activated.  It just used Spike as a vessel, there is nothing that says how it came to life.
> 
> And as for previous seasons I believe that I have already illustrated that there were wildcard factors all over the place in many of the finales, not just this one.  And there hasn't been a plan everytime.  Most of the time its just the Scoobies being there and doing there thing.  Was this season's ending as good as say 2 & 3, nope.  But it was entertaining.  I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it as much as some of us did. *




The problem isn't unforseen solutions or wildcards. The problem is, everything that they knew up to the point of entering the hellmouth pointed to them failing and dying.

Were they counting on ubervamps falling so easily? I'm hoping they weren't counting on Buffy's ability to be lethally stabbed and then not show the effects 5 minutes later.

Why wasn't the Slayer Spell cast before hand?

(and yes, why were the upper levels defended in three spots instead of one choke point?)

Besides, the Hellmouth was closed again. They had to reopen it. And, where was the big tentecaled monster! did the uber vamps eat it?

They showed the ep last night where Buffy kills the first Uber vamp. The girl doesn't know how to dodge at all, does she? That's why the Caleb Wirefu scene was so important, she finally figured out her quickened reflexes could be used for something other than charging ever faster at certain death!

Now if she's learned how stealth works, and scouted out the hell mouth ahead of time, that might be something. Instead, they open the gateway (letting all kinds of evil through, to be held off by Anya and Andrew...) and stand there waiting while Willow starts the spell.

I liked parts of the finale, but it really was one of the worst season finales so far. The fact that it was the series finale as well makes that worse for me.

But, the main thing for me is the plot holes. The stupid axe, the stupid amulet, the lack of any real plan by the First or The Slayers. The lack of even the most basic attempt to follow up on the plotpoints dropped haphazardly throughout the season... (Joyce, the Vulnerability to the Line, etc.)

And remember, the reason those of us complaining are doing so is because we have a large investment in the series. We've been watching it for quite a while, and have finally arrived at the end, only to be disappointed by it.


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## TwistedBishop (Jun 18, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *Yes, it has been more or less proven that modern technology has little effect against most of the bad guys in the Jossverse.  With the one exception of The Judge everything else has to be taken down by more archaic means. *





Tell that to the Mayor.


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## John Crichton (Jun 18, 2003)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> *Tell that to the Mayor. *



Okay, 2 exceptions.  No big.  Doesn't diminish one of the basic premises of the show being that technology isn't the main weapon against the bad guys.  It is on rare occassions used, there is no debating that.


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## John Crichton (Jun 18, 2003)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> *Against Adam, they had a powerful spell that they thought would work.*



Which is exactly what they did in the Season 7 finale.


			
				Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> *Against Glory they had a plan involving a robot and a god hammer. (the portal opening was unprepared for, and I don't want to argue the lack of logic in the whole Summers thing again, so I'll leave it there.)*



I think we may be in agreement that there wasn't a whole ton of planning involved here.  I always saw that whole thing as a last ditch effort to save Dawn and the world at once.


			
				Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> *Willow wasn't really that hard, they just had to get there. *



Still, no plan there.  Xander wakes up, takes off and gets through to Willow.  Sure, Giles made it possible but it was a huge longshot and not much of a plan on his part.  And I'm pretty sure Xander knew nothing about that part of it.

I'll say it again that the last season and season 6 when taken as a whole don't compare to earlier seasons.  There is no arguement there.  I'm not trying to say that this finale (or S6's) was up there with the earlier stuff.  I'm just saying that I enjoyed it for what it was.  The buildup wasn't great but for whatever reason the payoff worked.  If one would like to pick apart the episode, go for it.  I just don't see the point.  The episode was a bookend to the start of the series, had a cool battle, some regulars died, a few storylines were wrapped up and it was done well.


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## Vocenoctum (Jun 19, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *Okay, 2 exceptions.  No big.  Doesn't diminish one of the basic premises of the show being that technology isn't the main weapon against the bad guys.  It is on rare occassions used, there is no debating that. *




True, but it's not because it's not effective or anything. Thematically they wanted to minimize firearms and such. Their effectiveness was never really brought into it.

I guess my point is, just because they didn't use weapons more modern than a crossbow in general, don't assume they wouldn't have worked.


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## Vocenoctum (Jun 19, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *Which is exactly what they did in the Season 7 finale. *




See, the difference is, Buffy & gang chasing after Willow was a spur of the moment deal. I don't really remember how much they researched the flower spell vs Adam, but it wasn't really a rush.

Against the Mayor and Glory, they had a plan, since they had the time. The portal was unexpected, but dealt with.

The series finale, they had time. They could have, and should have, cast the spell from the axe earlier. They could have scouted, they could have done anything.

They went into a situation where all expectations were to die, but they figured it would work, because Buffy pitched the suicide rush better than when she wanted to go to the cellar...

Like I said, I liked the last ep well enough, but not because of the First or anything to do with that plotline. It had witty banter, which the show has lacked for a while. It had the D&D scene, it had other stuff that reminded me of better seasons.

If the same episode had been centered around them preparing to go out to patrol, it would have had the same effect.

So, I complain, because I care!


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## John Crichton (Jun 19, 2003)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> *See, the difference is, Buffy & gang chasing after Willow was a spur of the moment deal. I don't really remember how much they researched the flower spell vs Adam, but it wasn't really a rush.
> 
> Against the Mayor and Glory, they had a plan, since they had the time. The portal was unexpected, but dealt with.
> 
> ...



I'd like to first say that the lind you quoted was directed at the S4 finale in response to the using of a powerful spell they thought would work.  Just wanted to clarify as there seemed to be some confusion.

As for doing the spell earlier or any of those things, there isn't a reason needed to justify any of them for me because they were there for dramatic flair and liked the effect.  It is quite possible that Willow needed to be positioned right over the Hellmouth in order to cast the spell or any other number of plot devices, but either way to me it didn't matter and was a very minor plot point.

And the scouting thing isn't that big of a deal to me either.  Perhaps Buffy didn't expect the army to be so close and was going to leave the SITs with Spike while she looked ahead.  Either way the plan was FUBAR and desperate.

And we don't know that the Scoobs had time before the spell needed to be cast.  I was under the impression that time was precious and they didn't have much of it before the army was going to invade.

Either way about it I believe it comes down to the build-up not being as good as past seasons.  The previous shows were good but only par for Buffy.  I've stated other places why I think this is so I won't get into that here.  It wasn't the best finale but it was a very entertaining hour of TV.  That and it left the door open for future plots which even if they never come still works for me.  I like to think that the characters live on beyond the show.


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## S'mon (Jun 19, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *Okay, 2 exceptions.  No big.  Doesn't diminish one of the basic premises of the show being that technology isn't the main weapon against the bad guys.  It is on rare occassions used, there is no debating that. *




That it's not the main weapon used doesn't alter the fact that when it _is_ used it's shown to be an effective solution as often as any other tool.    All kinds of weapons are used in different Buffy episodes, different (killing) strokes for different (monster) folks. As vampires are vulnerable to the Sun, and a nuke generates a mini-Sun, this would seem a logical way to kill them.  It wouldn't kill fully incorporeal opponents like the First, of course.  Getting hold of a nuke would not be easy, of course, even the Initiative might not have ready access.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 19, 2003)

H2 (fusion) Bombs create sunlike effects, normal nukes not. And it seems as if Vampires are unaffected by artifical created light, so it might be that only the "real natural sun" can burn them...

And it is still the question if the army would have believed them - and if they did, would the bomb be there in time? 

Hell, why am I talking about an episode I will see the first time in 2 or 3 months?

Mustrum Ridcully


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## John Crichton (Jun 19, 2003)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *That it's not the main weapon used doesn't alter the fact that when it _is_ used it's shown to be an effective solution as often as any other tool.    All kinds of weapons are used in different Buffy episodes, different (killing) strokes for different (monster) folks. As vampires are vulnerable to the Sun, and a nuke generates a mini-Sun, this would seem a logical way to kill them.  It wouldn't kill fully incorporeal opponents like the First, of course.  Getting hold of a nuke would not be easy, of course, even the Initiative might not have ready access. *



It's already been said that technology has been used from time to time.  However, it's never been a true staple of the show.

Either way, are you saying that you would have rather seen them carry a nuke into the hellmouth and detonate it?  I'm just asking.  Cuz to me, that's pretty boring and actually much less "realistic" (BIG air quotes there ) than what happened.


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## Chun-tzu (Jun 19, 2003)

About the whole plan/lack thereof, here's the thing:

In seasons 1, 2, and 6, Buffy didn't face unbeatable BBEGs.

In season 3, Buffy slew the Mayor with a room full of explosives (you know, I wonder where they got all that, since explosives aren't exactly easy to come by; I guess they had the Council's help?). In season 4, Buffy faces a foe who has no trouble beating her: Adam. So she comes prepared, using her Super-Saiyan fusion technique. In season 5, again, unbeatable foe. She comes prepared, with her trusty Troll Hammer (that was acquired in a much better fashion than the contrived way the amulet and scythe were), an android decoy, and the Scooby army. The objective was to save Dawn, and stop the apocalypse, not to defeat Glory.

Season 7 comes off as extremely poorly thought out, compared to any of these. Again, she's facing an unbeatable foe, a couple of super-weapons are thrown in (that she doesn't even understand), and Buffy's plan is unclear to us.

It seems pretty clear the writers/director changed the season finale at the very end, abandoning things they were going to do. It would have made much more sense if Buffy fought the First (can't be beaten on Earth, gotta take the fight to her/it).


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## Staffan (Jun 20, 2003)

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> *In season 3, Buffy slew the Mayor with a room full of explosives (you know, I wonder where they got all that, since explosives aren't exactly easy to come by; I guess they had the Council's help?). *



At the time, Buffy had just told Wesley that he could take his Council and shove it. IIRC, the explosives were mostly "home-made" - fertiliser and stuff. Maybe not as powerful as C4, but they had a whole library full of it.


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## Vocenoctum (Jun 20, 2003)

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> *It seems pretty clear the writers/director changed the season finale at the very end, abandoning things they were going to do. It would have made much more sense if Buffy fought the First (can't be beaten on Earth, gotta take the fight to her/it). *




There was a link to an "alternate" script for the finale somewhere on this board. That script seemed to at least try to address some of the plot holes, if not the glaring lack of planning.

But, such is life. That didn't happen, and we're left with what we got.


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## S'mon (Jun 20, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *It's already been said that technology has been used from time to time.  However, it's never been a true staple of the show.
> 
> Either way, are you saying that you would have rather seen them carry a nuke into the hellmouth and detonate it?  I'm just asking.  Cuz to me, that's pretty boring and actually much less "realistic" (BIG air quotes there ) than what happened. *




I'm just saying it would have been _a plan_.  Any good reason to enter the Hellmouth would have done.  The problem with the episode was there was _no plan_ that, to the protagonists, appeared to rationally offer even the faintest glimmer of hope of success.
The contrast with the s3, s4, & s5 finales was striking.

Sky reshowed the original s3 First Evil episode (with the snow on Christmas day - only time Joss's ever made a pro-Christian statement, I believe) - it was a good reminder of how fantastically good the show was in the old days.  The amount of plot development in it would have filled a dozen s7 episodes.


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## S'mon (Jun 20, 2003)

I just read through the Buffy finale script - it looks to me like it was Joss's actual working script.  Some of the changes make sense - the actual ending was much better than 'hand out of rubble' (been done a million times), but it's a big shame they left out the whole explanation of the Dawn situation foreshadowed earlier.  Having the First be corporeal in Hell would have been good - it would have explained why collapsing the Hellmouth could genuinely hurt it.  Buffy not knowing that, the plan still boiled down to 'something will come up', though.  The idea that the Slayer line now moves through a trinity of Buffy, Dawn & Faith, and that Dawn's a Slayer, was interesting but a little nonsensical given that Kendra's death activated Faith.  The implication then is that it was the creation of Dawn (post Faith's activation), not Buffy's resurrections, that actually destabilised the Line.  I like that a lot.

Edit: alternate script:

http://www.buffy.nu/article.php3?id_article=731


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## S'mon (Jun 21, 2003)

BTW in the finale script, in the RPG scene, Giles rolls a _d10_, the only die roll, and _takes_ 5 hit points damage.  The only system I know of where this could happen is Carella's Unisystem, the system used for the Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG.  Coincidence?  I think not...


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