# Arcane Thesis - Too Powerful or Balanced?



## Olaf the Stout (Jul 17, 2009)

Arcane Thesis lets you pick 1 spell and cast it at +2 spell level.  Additionally, all Metamagic you use in the spell are reduced by 1 level (check the PHBII errata).

So that means that you could cast an Enlarged (+1 spell level), Extended(+1), Silent(+1), Still(+1), Scupted (+1) Arcane Thesis'd spell without increasing the level of the spell.

Does anyone think that is too powerful?  Or is it still balanced since you have to spend a feat on Arcane Thesis, plus a feat for each Metamagic feat you wish to use.

I ask because one of my players is looking at getting Arcane Thesis and wanted me to see if I would allow the feat in my campaign.

Olaf the Stout


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## Kylas (Jul 17, 2009)

Olaf the Stout said:


> Arcane Thesis lets you pick 1 spell and cast it at +2 spell level.  Additionally, all Metamagic you use in the spell are reduced by 1 level (check the PHBII errata).
> 
> So that means that you could cast an Enlarged (+1 spell level), Extended(+1), Silent(+1), Still(+1), Scupted (+1) Arcane Thesis'd spell without increasing the level of the spell.
> 
> ...





For the most part I think is okay for the reasons stated above, but if you are unsure about your game being broken ask the player what spell he plans on using it on.  Then when a BBEG rolls around you'll be well prepared.  I'm not saying have all your Npc's run around with cloak of antispell X, but try and strike a balance between player having fun with his investment and the group having fun, (especially the DM.)  I think it makes for a great rematch battle when the main strategy used to thwart BBEG so easily the first time doesn't work so effectively now.


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## akbearfoot (Jul 17, 2009)

That makes it WAY too powerful for a single feat.


It was a strong feat the way I understood it before, which was +2 caster levels and -1 from the total spell level.  The errata version is way over the top.

The 4th level Magic missile doing average of around 50 force damage is a good example.  Way to much damage for such a low level spell as  a 7th level character.  Make it worse with a Scorching Ray...9th level caster doing around 135 fire damage with a 5th level spell slot.  Thats more damage than a Meteor Swarm on average!

4th level empowered maximized Ray of Enfeeblment from 20-27 points of strength penalty...hrmm


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 17, 2009)

1. A level 4 Empowered Scorching Ray, with no other feats or investment at all, does an average of 42 damage.  Once you hit CL 11, it surpasses your magic missile example in damage.

2. Even if it did 50 str penalty, ray of enfeeblement couldn't reduce a creature's str below one, so it never becomes an instant win button, even after boosting it to spell levels where you could just learn instant win buttons.


I think arcane thesis is like any costly build.  It mostly sucks and isn't worth it on its own, but can get out of hand if enough resources are devoted to the one trick.  I really don't think it's a big deal, though.  You have to spend a lot of feats to start seeing a huge benefit, and casting the same spell over and over would be mind-numbingly boring to me.  If you're not casting that spell at least 1/4 of the time and you've spent all your feats towards it...I'd call that a bad investment, YMMV.

Even for the Killer Gnome" Shadowcraft Mage build, which can cast any Sorcerer/Wizard evocation or conuration (creation and summoning only) using just a single spell (ie, enough versatility ot not get boring)...that build literally REQUIRES 4 feats right off the bat to work right.  So, it's already quite feat starved.  Arcane Thesis is kinda lowsy even for that build if all you're getting is +2 CL.  You need to pick up metamagic feats, too.  (And the only one you have as part of the required 4, Heighten Spell, does not benefit from AT)

In any case, like others said...it's one spell.  Once he gets well known or faces the same foe a second time, said foes can be expected to have measures to foil the one spell at least sometimes.


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## green slime (Jul 17, 2009)

I have no problem with it. Except I have the following conditions:

I only allow the caster to reduce the cost of the metamagical additions once per metamagical feat (as I also allow multiple additions of the same metamagical feat to a single spell).

You can't ever cast a spell of a higher level (prior to reductions) than you could cast ordinarily. So as an example, no 7th level Wizard, can stack on metamagical feats to cast a spell of effective level higher than 4th, regardless of various reductions. Such a character cannot yet handle the energies required.

So while a 7th level wizard can cast an Arcane thesised _empowered acid arrow_, as a third level spell, he can't squeeze in another metamagic feat, nor could he cast a Arcane thesised _maximized acid arrow_, as both of these scenarios would push the effective spell level beyond four.


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## Runestar (Jul 17, 2009)

Arcane thesis was clarified (see the PHB2 errata on the wotc website) to subtract 1 only from the final spell lv. Whether it will allow you to reduce the final lv adjustment to zero (or even negative) is still debatable though, though most disallow the latter (and are split with regards to the former).


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## irdeggman (Jul 17, 2009)

Runestar said:


> Arcane thesis was clarified (see the PHB2 errata on the wotc website) to subtract 1 only from the final spell lv. Whether it will allow you to reduce the final lv adjustment to zero (or even negative) is still debatable though, though most disallow the latter (and are split with regards to the former).




Nope that is not what it says - check the example given. OP is correct. But since it applies to a single spell per feat and you must still have all of the metamagic feats you are applying and be at least 6th level skill rank of 9 prerequisitie - no it is not all that powerful, compared to some of the other feats in PHB 2.



> Page 74– Arcane Thesis [Substitution]
> Should read, “When you apply any metamagic feats other than Heighten Spell” Thus if you were to prepare an empowered maximized magic missile
> (assuming magic missile is the spell you choose for your Arcane Thesis), it would be prepared as a 4th level spell (+1 level for empowered, down from +2; and +2 levels for maximized, down from +3).
> 
> ...


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## MichaelK (Jul 17, 2009)

Olaf the Stout said:


> Or is it still balanced since you have to spend a feat on Arcane Thesis, plus a feat for each Metamagic feat you wish to use.




I'd say yes, it's still balanced for precisely that reason.

What's more I love the flavor of that feat.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 17, 2009)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> 1. A level 4 Empowered Scorching Ray, with no other feats or investment at all, does an average of 42 damage.  Once you hit CL 11, it surpasses your magic missile example in damage.
> 
> 2. Even if it did 50 str penalty, ray of enfeeblement couldn't reduce a creature's str below one, so it never becomes an instant win button, even after boosting it to spell levels where you could just learn instant win buttons.
> 
> ...



Note, a Strength of 1 against a monster that usually has a Strength of 20 or up is basically a "I WIN" button. That would reduce its primary attacks by around 10 points.

Simplest solution is to apply the benefit only to one of the metamagic effects on the spell. 

And only allow it for Fireball. Rename the feat "Overpowered Fireball". That's what we did. 



Spoiler



Well, at least in jest.


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## akbearfoot (Jul 17, 2009)

I used magic missile as the example because it is pretty much the conventional wizards basic attack spell at low levels.  The Arcane Thesis version is 50ish damage that requires no attack roll, can be split among targets, has no saving throw, and essentially is unresistable.  Unless you have Shield, or the necklace thingy...or happen to be a force dragon.

Why compare scorching ray to magic missile when I already showcased it doing more damage than a 9th level spell, as a 9th level caster even.

Know any humanoids or small to large creatures that use manufactured weapons or armor that can stay standing with a 1 Strength?  Or bruteish monsters who are still a challenge when they suck -13 to hit and damage with no save?  See Split Ray eventually for even more cheeze-wiz.


Wizards get free metamagic feats, and tons of the desireable caster PrCs require metamagic feats anyways.  That's not a very high associated cost along with the cost of this feat itself.  Nobody would bother taking the feat unless they liked using the spell a lot.  So try and look at it in the best ways it will be used, not the worst most unlikely ways.

Might make the mage a 1 trick pony, but nobody will survive long enough to tell their buddies anyways.


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## karlstar (Jul 17, 2009)

Don't let the 50 points of magic missile damage scare you.  An empowered, Sudden maximized Lesser Orb of Acid, will be a 3rd level spell and do 45 points of basically non-resistable damage, except for that pretty trivial ranged touch attack.   Not that much different.


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## green slime (Jul 17, 2009)

akbearfoot said:


> I used magic missile as the example because it is pretty much the conventional wizards basic attack spell at low levels.  The Arcane Thesis version is 50ish damage that requires no attack roll, can be split among targets, has no saving throw, and essentially is unresistable.  Unless you have Shield, or the necklace thingy...or happen to be a force dragon.




Strikes me, that with _magic missile_ being so popular, it is a waste to spend so many feats to enhance it. The popularity of _magic missile_ ensures the commanality of _shield_, brooches of shielding, and the like. Metamagic feats increases the damage per missile, but not the number of missiles. IMX, at least half the players equip their characters with brooches of shielding.


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## Jhaelen (Jul 17, 2009)

green slime said:


> Strikes me, that with _magic missile_ being so popular, it is a waste to spend so many feats to enhance it. The popularity of _magic missile_ ensures the commanality of _shield_, brooches of shielding, and the like. Metamagic feats increases the damage per missile, but not the number of missiles. IMX, at least half the players equip their characters with brooches of shielding.



... unless arcane classes have become completely unpopular because of the introduction of psionic classes.

In my campaign it's twin rayed / transdimensional / empowered / maximized / etc. crystal shards that get lobbed around.


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## irdeggman (Jul 18, 2009)

akbearfoot said:


> The 4th level Magic missile doing average of around 50 force damage is a good example.  Way to much damage for such a low level spell as  a 7th level character.  Make it worse with a Scorching Ray...9th level caster doing around 135 fire damage with a 5th level spell slot.  Thats more damage than a Meteor Swarm on average!





How can you get magic missile to do 50 pts of damage?

You get a maximum of 5 missiles with a normal maximum damage of 25 pts (5 x 5) then multiply it by 1 1/2 and you still only get 37 (always round down) - so maximized and empowered only gets you 1 1/2 times 25 pts.


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## akbearfoot (Jul 18, 2009)

I didn't do the exact math which was why I said 'around'...So 25 base + avg of 17 more for 42.  I think in my head I originally multiplied the roll by 1.5 like you normally would for just being empowered.  Cuz that would be right at 50 pts.  I still think that's too much automatic damage.  IMX brooches of shielding get sold as soon as they get found.  The low hp casters have shield, and everyone else begs to be hit with direct damage rather than the jillion other nasty things casters can do.  That or they are way more worried about wearing their amulets of health or natural armor (or both).

Granted direct damage spells are usually not the best choice in combat...but that doesn't mean making low level spells do more damage than 9th level spells is balanced.

I personally consider the orb spells borderline broken, and they are essentially banned in all games I have been playing in.  Along with Wraithstrike, the Dex damage touch attack that 1-shots great wyrms with no save, and a few other things.


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## green slime (Jul 18, 2009)

akbearfoot said:


> I didn't do the exact math which was why I said 'around'...So 25 base + avg of 17 more for 42.  I think in my head I originally multiplied the roll by 1.5 like you normally would for just being empowered.  Cuz that would be right at 50 pts.  I still think that's too much automatic damage.  IMX brooches of shielding get sold as soon as they get found.  The low hp casters have shield, and everyone else begs to be hit with direct damage rather than the jillion other nasty things casters can do.  That or they are way more worried about wearing their amulets of health or natural armor (or both).
> 
> Granted direct damage spells are usually not the best choice in combat...but that doesn't mean making low level spells do more damage than 9th level spells is balanced.
> 
> I personally consider the orb spells borderline broken, and they are essentially banned in all games I have been playing in.  Along with Wraithstrike, the Dex damage touch attack that 1-shots great wyrms with no save, and a few other things.




Akbear, when someone has gone to the bother to actually do the math for an _empowered maximised magic missile_, how do you then still figure to go on missmanaging figures? Trying to undermine your own argument even further?

Other than that, I don't see much in reference to the OP's query about arcane thesis. Or am I misunderstanding something?


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## Mon (Jul 18, 2009)

akbearfoot said:


> I didn't do the exact math which was why I said 'around'...So 25 base + avg of 17 more for 42.




Eh? The damage from a maximized and empowered magic missile cannot reach 42, much less average that much.

25 (maximized) + 6.25 (average addition from being empowered*) = 31.25 average

* 5d4 averages out to 12.5, /2 = 6.25 extra for empower, since empowering a maximised spell still requires you to roll damage for the empower portion. Also the +1s aren't empowered because they are not variable. The minimum is 27.5 (if all 1s are rolled for empowering), the maximum is 35 (if all 4s are rolled for empowering). Even if you allowed the +1s to be empowered, the average would be 33.75 maximum would be 37.5.



akbearfoot said:


> ...but that doesn't mean making low level spells do more damage than 9th level spells is balanced.




True, but that doesn't occur in this case. With arcane thesis, the above uses a 4th level spell slot. It isn't doing close to what a 9th level spell can dish out.


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## Runestar (Jul 18, 2009)

> 25 (maximized) + 6.25 (average addition from being empowered*) = 31.25 average




Note that you roll for the final total damage before multiplying it by 1.5 (the empower spell feat entry even uses magic missile as an example), it would be 25 + (5d4+5)*0.5, or 33.75 ~ 34 damage on average. 

I would say it seems fairly anemic for what you should be getting out of a 4th lv slot, considering that you could be casting evard's tentacles, enervation, or stoneskin. Heck, even an empowered fireball (modified by arcane thesis) does much more damage, and to everyone in a radius.

I think that as a DM, you may need to metagame a little to keep this feat in check. If the player in question favours the use of said spell (say he is a sorc who applies the feat to his favourite damage spell, which he then proceeds to spam repeatedly), you may want to start giving some of your foes limited resistance to his tactic. How far you need to go would depend on how powerful the end result is (such as better reflex saves, fire resistance or simply spreading them out more). 

Just don't go overboard and completely neuter that spell, but do what you need to prevent it from becoming overpowered, if that is the case.


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## Mon (Jul 18, 2009)

_*Checks PHB*_ I stand corrected on the +1s not being empowered. 

Obligatory weak excuse: We've always just used the d20srd.org description of empower spell, which doesn't include the magic missile example. A literal reading of the RAW (without the example) would suggest that you don't multiply the +1s since they aren't variable. _*shrug*_ Learn something new every day.

Obligatory and equally weak attempt to claw back some authority: Point still valid though. Nobody's reaching 42 damage with that combo


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## akbearfoot (Jul 18, 2009)

I stand corrected.  I no longer think it is overpowered for basic magic missile.  I thought it did considerably more damage.

Math Hard!  apparently.


I do still think it is too strong for a single feat though.  Probably not 'way overpowered' like I originally thought though.  I think a feat that just gave you +2 Caster levels for a single spell would be a decent feat worth taking in some cases.

Seems like a no-brainer must have for any blaster or sorcerer as it appears in the errata.  Pick 1 offensive spell, metamagic the snot out of it for about 8 levels, then retrain it to a bigger spell.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 18, 2009)

Arcane Thesis is like anyfeat that requires a lot of other feats to be worth taking.  It gets stronger the more related feats you take.  If you're ok with that, it should work fine in your game.  Really, it's no different than a human psion taking psionic body and NOTHING but psionic feats for massive bonus hp relative to your level, any one of the heritage feat lines, etc...


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## Olaf the Stout (Jul 22, 2009)

Ok, the ruling I decided to go with was to allow the feat, but the caster must be able cast a spell of that level before the reduced metamagic is taken into account.

So if a caster took Arcane Thesis on a Fireball and he was 9th level, he could only add enough metamagic feats to make the spell 5th level (since that is the highest level of spell he could cast at 9th level).

So that means he could only put a single +2 metamagic feat on it (and cast it as a 4th level spell) or two +1 metamagic feats on it (and cast it as a 3rd level spell).

That makes it still an ok feat, without being too overpowering in the hands of a caster with lots of metamagic feats.

Olaf the Stout


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## irdeggman (Jul 22, 2009)

It's your game but are you sure it actually is that powerful?

It only applies to 1 spell and the caster still needs to have all of the metamagic feats to be able to use it to full advantage.

Look at the other feats in the PHB II and make sure that you rule them in a similar manner.

The feats in that book tend to be more powerful than others are. So you need to look at the other feats like - weapon mastery or weapon supremacy and see if they "belong" too.


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## Olaf the Stout (Jul 23, 2009)

I think half the reason I am nerfing it a bit is that it is my resident powergamer that is looking at taking the feat.  He is very adept at picking out strong feats so I am normally wary of what he chooses.  His character is more than powerful enough as it is compared to the other PC's.  If it was one of the other players I probably wouldn't be so worried.  But I've seen what combinations he can come up with before!  

The good thing about my group's powergamer is that at least he plays within my rules.  If I don't allow him to take something from a splatbook, or if I nerf it down a bit, he doesn't complain.  He just rolls with it.  Sometimes that means he will no longer take the feat or the spell.  Other times he still thinks it is worth taking, even with the nerf.

Olaf the Stout


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## Ifni (Aug 10, 2009)

For what it's worth, I think that's a good call. If I was using Arcane Thesis I'd tend to rule it to only allow a total -1 reduction to the spell level, not -1 per metamagic feat, but your way is fine too.

I briefly played with Arcane Thesis in a PbP game, because the GM had specifically asked us to make powerful characters. I didn't even pick a particularly nasty Thesis spell (Rainbow Beam - Split + Empowered for 15d12 damage as a L4 spell, or add Ocular Spell for 30d12 in a full-round action at the cost of two L5 slots), and it still broke the first few encounters (after which the game collapsed).

Arcane Thesis, applied to a direct damage spell, can raise an arcanist's damage output far above what you would normally expect. The really nasty options aren't ordinary damage though - consider spells that do no-save ability damage or negative levels. A L13 wizard with Arcane Thesis (Enervation) and three metamagic feats can lay down (4d4)*1.5 (average 15) negative levels as a full-round action. If you decide to allow Ray of Stupidity (which I would recommend against, independent of Arcane Thesis), one full-round action and two L5 spell slots can get you an average of 20 points of Int damage - although really, you'll probably just want to stick with the L4 standard-action version: average 10 Int damage frequently suffices to incapacitate either big dumb foes or enemy wizards.

Oh, and just a minor pet peeve: Ray of Enfeeblement imposes an ability penalty, it doesn't do ability damage. This means it doesn't stack with itself. Empowering Ray of Enfeeblement works to increase the penalty, but if you split or twin it for extra rays, you take the largest penalty from an individual ray, you don't add them all together.


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## Elethiomel (Aug 10, 2009)

kent110 said:


> I used magic missile as the example because it is pretty much the conventional wizards basic attack spell at low levels. The Arcane Thesis version is 50ish damage that requires no attack roll, can be split among targets, has no saving throw, and essentially is un ressistable. Unless you have Shield, or the necklace thingy...or happen to be a force dragon.



"50ish" damage has been shown to be incorrect before in this thread. How do you get that number?


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## Drowbane (Aug 12, 2009)

As a DM, I'm pretty damn liberal with what I allow in my games.  And I house rule Arcane Thesis so that it only brings down the cost *once*.  And it is still a rockin' good feat.

I've seen it abused, and it can be scary (especially in a campaign where PCs get a feat per level... which is standard around here).


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 12, 2009)

If you only allow it to bring down one feat's cost, it's basically the same as easy/practical metamagic, except it only applies to a single spell, and gives +2 Cl on that spell, instead of every spell using the metamagic feat.  Or if you meant you could choose each time to apply it to one metamagic feat for the spell but the feat could be different each time...I guess that's a little more flexibility.  Still seems outright weaker than practical/easy meta.  Seldom do you really have many metamagic feats particularly useful for a spell, even if you've bothered to spend feats on them all.

I still don't think AT is that bad as long as you don't let it reduce below +0 for "level reductions" or anything crazy like that.  Limiting it to the highest level you could cast before reductions severely gimps it and makes it even more pointless to take for a mid level spell.  If I were to limit it...I guess I'd say the end result before reductions couldn't be above a level 9 spell (until you can cast epic spells, at least).  You could have a maximized, empowered scorching ray (without AT = lvl 7; with = lvl 5) at CL 9, even though you can't cast level 7 spells.  But you couldn't also....*draws a blank trying to think of an example* add another +3 feat to it, even at CL 13 when you can cast level 7 spells (as it would become a level 7 spell after AT, level 10 w/o).  Just for another idea to limit it.  I will note divine metamagic isn't so limited.  I forget if the bardic feat to spend music usages is or not, but it'd be really lame if they cracked down on the bard of all people.


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## irdeggman (Aug 12, 2009)

The feat as written is on par with other feats from the same book.

Nerf them all or nerf none of them.

I will not make a judgement on whether I think the feats in PHB II are too powerful (in general) or not, only that this feat is about as powerful as other feats there of equivalent prerequisite level.


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## Heaven's Thunder Ham (Sep 28, 2009)

There's some good rules talk in this thread:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3rd-edition-rules/162470-arcane-thesis-abuse-phb-ii-3.html

the original designer came out and said a bit.


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## Shin Okada (Sep 28, 2009)

Arcane Thesis is for 1 spell. That is the biggest limitation. It will make a one trick pony, especially in case of blasters.

If you choose some force spell, that will not be the spell which inflicts the biggest damages amongst the spells in the same level. If you choose some energy spell, from time to time, you will meet creatures immune or highly resistant to that energy type. Energy Substitution metamagic helps, but not always. Some monsters are immune to multiple types of energies.

Also, unless your DM allow you retraining often, choosing a spell for Arcane Thesis is a painful decision making. There are problems of dice caps and save DCs. Even if empowered and maximized, the spell you have chosen will eventually become your second-late attack or worse, due to lower limit of number of dice you can roll and lower save DC.

In case of Shadowcraft Mage, that can make a very strong spell caster in med to higher level. Still, the class relies on (Shadow) spells and thus, almost useless in inner/outer planes because those planes are not connected to shadow plane. As higher level adventures tend involve some encounters in inner/outer planes (or, often entirely take place in such planes), Shadowcraft Mage is far from versatile.


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