# Elements of Magic - Mythic Earth (post-release proofread complete!)



## RangerWickett

This thread is for questions, announcements, and teasers of the latest release in the Elements of Magic series, _Mythic Earth_.



> The unknown and the secret are essential to human nature. Without mystery, people wither and die.
> 
> In the time before the dark ages, magic was as common on earth as it is in the numerous fantasy settings of fiction. But at the Battle of Camlann in England, King Arthur’s knights defeated the army of the magical races, led by the knight Mordred, and in so doing, Arthur won a victory for all humanity. The magical races agreed at the point of a sword to leave the human world – Terra – and return to their own fey realm – Gaia, a world that once closely adjoined Terra, but henceforth would grow further and further apart.
> 
> Most who hear stories like this one would call them mere myth. After all, magic is not real, and such tales are just stories told by our ignorant, superstitious ancestors. The truth, if there is such a thing, is that the story is a myth, but it is a myth believed in by creatures we ourselves would call magical. For the insidious thing about magic is that it conforms to the beliefs of humanity. Myths are not just stories told for entertainment; they are how cultures explain and understand the world, and even the most ‘advanced’ cultures have their own myths, because there will always be mystery.
> 
> _Elements of Magic – Mythic Earth_ gives you the rules to create magic as it is seen in the myths that are alive in every setting, ancient or modern. _Mythic Earth_ presents rules compatible with both Fantasy d20 and Modern d20, and is an update of the flexible spell creation system of _Elements of Magic_. Additionally, whether you want to explore the myths of the real world, or you want to play in a fantasy world of your own creation, this book will help you understand the role myths play in history and society, and will aid you in composing adventures with mythic resonance.
> 
> _Mythic Earth_ will help you bring the grandeur of myths and the intricacies of superstition and folklore to life in your games. From street magicians and voodoo priests to Chinese sorcerers and the various stripes of witches, all the magical beliefs of humanity and the infinite worlds of fantasy are yours to wield as you explore the mysteries of Mythic Earth.





September 7, 2005 - EOM:ME teaser document is finished. Once it's uploaded, we'll post a link here.

September 30, 2005 - EOM:ME went on sale at RPGNow and Drive-Thru RPG. Print on Demand is not yet available, but we're trying to get it set up as soon as possible, because the author really wants a copy of his book. *grin*

October 10, 2005 - Due to comments here and abroad, various revisions are being made, and when they're ready, a notice will be sent out to all customers encouraging them to download the latest version. See a post dated today to download a .doc file with the most significant changes.


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## RangerWickett

The Long Road storyhour is an account of my playtest campaign with the _Mythic Earth_ rules. It's been a great success. Nothing like a field test to make you realize what you need the rules to do.


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## genshou

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> The Long Road storyhour is an account of my playtest campaign with the _Mythic Earth_ rules. It's been a great success. Nothing like a field test to make you realize what you need the rules to do.



And a good SH it is!  I've fallen in love with the setting already, despite the fact that I just wanted to rip the magic system out and use it in an Urban Arcana game.


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## John Q. Mayhem

Awesome


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## Angel Tarragon

Looking forward to it.


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## Night Watchman

EEEEE!    I'm also looking forward to this!


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## Morrus

The preview/treaser is now available for download - head over to the EN Publishing website to grab it!


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## genshou

Morrus said:
			
		

> The preview/treaser is now available for download - head over to the EN Publishing website to grab it!



*Hugs *Morrus*, *RangerWickett*, and the rest of the E.N. Publishing team* Just barely downloaded it and can't wait to read through it!


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## Matrix Sorcica

genshou said:
			
		

> *Hugs *Morrus*, *RangerWickett*, and the rest of the E.N. Publishing team* Just barely downloaded it and can't wait to read through it!




The teaser is great!!

I'm really really looking forward to the release of Mythic Earth!
I want to use it for a fantasy game, how complete is the appendix for using it for fantasy?


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## RangerWickett

The book is on sale now at RPGNow and Drive-Thru RPG. Print on Demand is not yet available, unfortunately. We have the files ready, but logistics are slowly us down. It's highly illogical.




> *Elements of Magic - Mythic Earth brings myths to life in your game*
> 
> [imager]http://www.enworld.org/shop/images/engs/product101/mec.JPG[/imager]The unknown and the secret are essential to human nature. Without mystery, people wither and die.
> 
> _Elements of Magic – Mythic Earth_ presents a magic system that creates the stirring, compelling magic seen in the myths that are alive in every setting, ancient or modern. Adventure in a postmodern retelling of the Arthurian legends, take on the role of historical Chinese mages struggling against the encroaching magical traditions of diabolical westerners, or create all new mythic adventures set in your own fantasy world. In _Mythic Earth_ you will find the rules to capture the tone and essence of countless mythic traditions, real and imagined.
> 
> Compatible with both Fantasy d20 and Modern d20, and drawing on the best aspects of the flexible spell creation system of _Elements of Magic_, _Mythic Earth_ is a stand-alone rules supplement that can be integrated into any d20 game, adding new layers to the meaning of what magic is.
> 
> Whether you want to explore the myths of the real world, or to play in a fantasy world of your own creation, this book will help you understand the role myths play in history and society, and will aid you in composing adventures with mythic resonance.  _Mythic Earth_ will help you bring the grandeur of myths and the intricacies of superstition and folklore to life in your games. From street magicians and voodoo priests to Chinese sorcerers and the various stripes of witches, all the magical beliefs of humanity and the infinite worlds of fantasy are yours to wield as you explore the mysteries of Mythic Earth.
> 
> 
> Download the teaser and get your first look at a character from the sample [smallcaps]High Fantasy[/smallcaps] setting.
> Read The Long Road - A [smallcaps]High Fantasy[/smallcaps] Storyhour, a grand tale with a cast to rival any Hollywood epic, which recounts the modern campaign in which these rules were playtested.
> Buy _Elements of Magic - Mythic Earth_ at RPGNow and Drive-Thru RPG for *$8.95*.
> And tell your own tales of mythic adventure.
> 
> Cover illustration by J.L. Jones.




How does that look?


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## John Q. Mayhem

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!

As soon as I get home from college, it's mine.


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## genshou

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> How does that look?



Looks pretty good!  One thing I'd like to point out, though...

A few people that have been Elements of Magic fans have commented to me when I pointed out the release of _Mythic Earth_ that they saw it but weren't aware it was a rulebook designed to work for d20 Modern.  Perhaps there's a way to make that more obvious from the outset?


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## RangerWickett

genshou said:
			
		

> Looks pretty good!  One thing I'd like to point out, though...
> 
> A few people that have been Elements of Magic fans have commented to me when I pointed out the release of _Mythic Earth_ that they saw it but weren't aware it was a rulebook designed to work for d20 Modern.  Perhaps there's a way to make that more obvious from the outset?




Well, I admit that I don't want to hype the d20 Modern aspect too much, because I'm afraid some people will see it and say, "Oh, it's not D&D. I don't need it." The book is compatible with both systems. The promo says as much, and the teaser distinctly spells it out, doesn't it?

Also, it's a pain in the butt to get the newshounds to go in and edit press releases on the news page once they've been released. But if you think I'm somehow deceiving customers, let me know, and I'll fix it. I just wouldn't think that being dual-compatible would be a bad thing.


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## Archus

Mythic Earth looks good on first glance.  This version might be an easier port (almost trivial) to True20 compared to EoMR.  I might miss the different elements from EoMR (they allowed for very interesting character customization), but this is streamlined.  More reading of Mythic Earth is needed.  Thanks for another great supplement.


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## Bayonet_Chris

*RPGNow Review*

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_reviews_info.php?products_id=5531&SRC=EnWorld&reviews_id=10288&


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## RangerWickett

Bayonet_Chris said:
			
		

> http://www.rpgnow.com/product_reviews_info.php?products_id=5531&SRC=EnWorld&reviews_id=10288&





*whistles* Woot.


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## Alzrius

What's the Craft Point cost for permanent spells? The section on page 24 doesn't seem to say how much they actually cost.


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## Marius Delphus

Alzrius said:
			
		

> What's the Craft Point cost for permanent spells? The section on page 24 doesn't seem to say how much they actually cost.




I reverse engineered the cost of the sample spell using the formulas under Activated Items and Continuous Items: it appears permanent spells cost the same number of CP as Continuous Items.

Also, in checking on this, I've discovered two typos that unfortunately made it past me in layout: Exorcise Spirit, on page 25, should be Charm 7/Gen 0 (at least, I'm pretty sure it should), and the page reference under Craft Permanent Spell, on page 13, should read 23. The hyperlink on page 13 still goes to the proper page, though.


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## RangerWickett

Yes, Permanent Spells cost the same as items. However . . . hrm. Durn. I can't believe I missed that. There _really_ should be a Craft Permanent Item feat, and then a Craft Permanent Spell feat that is separate. Otherwise people will just make permanent spells as opposed to items.

Well, that's another piece of errata. Fooey.


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## Alzrius

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Yes, Permanent Spells cost the same as items. However . . . hrm. Durn. I can't believe I missed that. There _really_ should be a Craft Permanent Item feat, and then a Craft Permanent Spell feat that is separate. Otherwise people will just make permanent spells as opposed to items.
> 
> Well, that's another piece of errata. Fooey.




I'm somewhat confused by this, as the Craft Permanent Spell feat seems to indicate quite clearly that it's the feat used for permanent items as well. Given that, and what Marius said about the CP costs, I don't see why either permanent spells or permanent items would be more attractive than the other.


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## RangerWickett

Additionally, I must have accidentally deleted the 'Strong Emotion' for Courage in the Charm spell.

*Heroic (5 MP):* Heroic creatures gain a +2 morale bonus to attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, ability checks, saves, and skill checks. The spell also acts as a strong Calm against fear effects only.


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## RangerWickett

Alzrius said:
			
		

> I'm somewhat confused by this, as the Craft Permanent Spell feat seems to indicate quite clearly that it's the feat used for permanent items as well. Given that, and what Marius said about the CP costs, I don't see why either permanent spells or permanent items would be more attractive than the other.




The issue is that Permanent Spells can be created on the spot. You're like, "I want to turn you into a toad forever. Bam!"

Or better yet, "I want +6 Strength." With a permanent spell, that takes 2 rounds tops. With an item, it takes 13 days.

Originally I was looking for different ways to balance the immediacy, which I think is why the feat Craft Permanent Spell says it can work for both items and permanent spells. But I ultimately decided that it worked better the way I had it originally in EOM-R. I just didn't fix the feat.


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## RangerWickett

In the latest post of The Long Road - A [smallcaps]High Fantasy[/smallcaps] Storyhour, I've posted stats for a general thug who showed up in the game, and a sample spellcaster.


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## Marius Delphus

Well, in D&D, permanent spells (like that +6 STR) are simply of unlimited duration and can be dispelled entirely, whereas magic items are merely suppressed briefly when dispelled. So there's a built-in limitation right there. (Of course, there might be practical limitations depending on the spell: to dispel the Exorcise Spirit spell, for example, maybe you'd have to find the spirit that was exorcised.)

If you wanted the ability to place an item-type permanent spell on something other than an item, maybe that's one thing only epic spellcasters can pull off. Which would lead to dispelling such spells, or disjoining items (as _Mordenkainen's disjunction_), as another thing only epic spellcasters could do.


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## RangerWickett

Ah. Hm. Ugh.

Hrm?

Okay, random noises aside, this is an insight into how difficult it is to keep track of a whole magic system by oneself. I remember considering Marius Delphus's (he's the brilliant layout artist responsible for the gorgeous look of the book) idea. I think I was hesitant to use it because it meant that someone could use a renewable resource (a spell to dispel magic) to counter a non-renewable resource (Action Points used to create a permanent spell).


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## Marius Delphus

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I think I was hesitant to use it because it meant that someone could use a renewable resource (a spell to dispel magic) to counter a non-renewable resource (Action Points used to create a permanent spell).




Eek. Urgh.

I ended up deleting that part of my post when I found I'd made a tiny but critical rules error regarding D&D permanent spells. This DID occur to me. Honestly. 

I came up with some possibilities, all of which I gave short shrift because I don't like them. (Probably why I didn't miss them when rereading my post.) My objections are in [brackets]:

1. Refund CP to the caster if a permanent spell is dispelled (probably some, but not all) [but this would require nasty, ptooie! bookkeeping!]
2. Charge fewer CP for permanent spells [adds math, assumes balance between permanent spells with caveat and items STILL isn't right; would need the most playtesting]
3. Require anyone dispelling a permanent spell to have the Craft Permanent Spell feat [doesn't make internal sense]
4. Require anyone dispelling a permanent spell to spend CP (of the four, I like this one best) [but how many? and as if there aren't enough uses for CP!]

And, well, thanks for the compliment


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## RangerWickett

Hence my opinion that it should use a similar format to EOM-R. One feat for items, one for Permanent Spells.


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## RangerWickett

And I want to give a thank you to Alzrius for his review of Mythic Earth. (At least I'm _pretty_ sure Alzrius and Shane O'Conner are the same person. Silly screen names getting stuff all mucked up.

You raise a good point that there isn't enough focus on D&D usage. I did kinda figure that I'd done enough fantasy traditions in Lyceian Arcana, and I didn't want to repeat material from that book. I think I'd used up most of my best magical tradition ideas, so yeah, I could have done better there.


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## genshou

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Hence my opinion that it should use a similar format to EOM-R. One feat for items, one for Permanent Spells.



I'm with *RangerWickett* on this one.  When I bought the book, one of the strongest selling points for EoMR, aside from the magic system itself, was the way that magic item creation worked.  I think ME should follow the same format.  In EoMR a permanent magical effect cannot be dispelled, only supressed.  I read this as saying it applies to both wondrous items and permanent spells.  EoMR had the additional mechanical difference in item creation.  If you don't want to spend gold, you can instead spend XP.  Is this (a distinct mechanical difference in how the cost is paid) the case in EoM-ME?  I haven't gotten that far into the book yet


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## Alzrius

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> And I want to give a thank you to Alzrius for his review of Mythic Earth.




It was my pleasure. Reviewing is its own reward. That and the free products.



> _(At least I'm pretty sure Alzrius and Shane O'Conner are the same person. Silly screen names getting stuff all mucked up._




Gah! You revealed my secret identity!   



> _You raise a good point that there isn't enough focus on D&D usage. I did kinda figure that I'd done enough fantasy traditions in Lyceian Arcana, and I didn't want to repeat material from that book. I think I'd used up most of my best magical tradition ideas, so yeah, I could have done better there._




I felt like I was being punitive assigning four out of five stars over that, but I did feel that there was some room for iconic fantasy traditions, among other fantasy features, that wasn't utilized. Don't get me wrong, I love what I see in ME (pun intended), but I also saw that there could have been more.


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## RangerWickett

Alzrius said:
			
		

> I love what I see in ME (pun intended)




I realized a bit late that the acronym for this book might be a problem. Such as when I asked an ex girlfriend gamer friend, "I'm going to send you ME, okay?" *grin*

I got Spellfire, Bardic Music, and Lolth. What other sorts of traditions would you have wanted to see? It can be the second web enhancement (the first is the storyhour with its attendant stats).


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## Alzrius

Here's a few from classic D&D: elven bladesinging, Shadow Weave Magic, fiend-worshipping, defiling, wild magic, and realm magic (from _Birthright_). These were just things I came up with off the top of my head, so feel free to alter them for the web enhancement. If I can think of anymore, I'll post them here also.

*Singing Blade [Tradition]*
You believe that your training with a weapon has reached mystical levels.
*Prerequisites:* Weapon focus.
*Benefit:* You gain the magical skills Attack, Charm, and Defend.
When casting a signature spell, you may immediately attack with the weapon that is the subject of your Weapon Focus feat. This attack is made immediately after casting your spell, and only if you have the weapon in hand, or could draw it as a free action.
*Rituals:* Your rituals consist of long, graceful weapon forms that you perform. Each round, you must make a melee attack roll against AC (5 + ½ spell level) to make the proper motions.
*Mishaps:* You accidently damage yourself for damage equal to ½ the spell’s level (round down, at least 1 point of damage). Damage reduction doesn’t stop this damage.

*Shadowed Magic [Tradition]*
You believe that your magic is formed of subtle shadows, and is more subtle than normal sorcery.
*Benefits:* You gain the magical skills Illusion, Move, and Transform.
Spellcasters without this magical tradition feat suffer a -2 penalty when attempting to detect or dispel your spells.
Whenever your spells are cast in shadowy illumination or darkness, the DC to resist them gains a +1 bonus. In areas of bright light, the DC to resist takes a -1 penalty.
*Rituals:* Rituals for this tradition must be conducted in deep shadows. As the ritual progresses, light sources must be gradually extinguished, leaving you in total darkness.
*Mishaps:* You blind yourself for 1 round per level of the spell you were casting.

*Blasphemous [Tradition]*
You believe that your magic is granted to you through the favor of fiendish horrors.
*Benefits:* You gain the magical skills Divine and Summon.
Once per day per Wisdom bonus (minimum once) you can make an opposed caster level check against another spellcaster that has summoned a creature. Success enables you to treat the creature as though you had summoned it. All aspects of the spell (duration, etc.) are still figured by the original spellcaster’s statistics.
*Rituals:* Rituals tend to be dark pleas to evil powers, asking for their grace and guidance. They tend to involve perverse or otherwise gruesome acts to gain the favor of your fiendish patron.
*Mishaps:* Your fiendish patron curses you, resulting in you taking a -2 penalty to all die rolls for a number of rounds equal to ½ the level of the spell you were casting.

*Defiling [Tradition]*
You believe that your magic is powered by stealing the life force of plants.
*Benefit:* You gain access to all magic skills. However, casting spontaneous spells takes four rounds, since you need to gather life energy from the ground around you. During these rounds, enemies take an initiative penalty equal to ½ the level of the spell you’re casting.
*Rituals:* Rituals of this tradition blight the land around them. For a ten foot radius per spell level, the land is permanently razed, unable to ever support life again.
*Mishaps:* You are unable to draw energy from the foliage around you, and instead draw it from yourself, taking 1 point of damage per spell level.

*Chaotic Mage [Tradition]*
You believe your magic is formed from the stuff of raw chaos.
*Benefit:* You gain access to the magic skills Create, Illusion, Move, and Transform. Whenever you cast a spontaneous spell, add a total of (1d6-3) to your caster level. Negative results on the die check are a penalty to your caster level.
*Rituals:* This tradition has no rituals.
*Mishaps:* Anything can happen with a mishap in this tradition. GMs are encouraged to come up with random effects.

*Sovereign Spellcaster [Tradition]*
You believe your magic comes from an ancient connection you have with your land.
*Benefit:* You gain the access to the magic skills Charm, Defend, Divine, and Move.
You gain a special connection with an area of land, one square mile per character level, due to a mystic bond one of your ancestors forged with the land long ago. The area of land increases in size every time you gain a new level, representing your increased connection to your land. All of your spells cast while on your land gain bonus skill ranks equal to ½ your character level that may only be spent on range enhancement. All of your Move spells, however, may only have a destination on your land.
*Rituals:* Rituals involving this tradition typically take place outdoors on the highest portion of your land. 
*Mishaps:* Miscasting a spell temporarily severs your connection to your land, and the loss of the mystical connection leaves you shaken for ½ the intended spell’s duration.


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## genshou

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Here's a few from classic D&D: elven bladesinging, Shadow Weave Magic, fiend-worshipping, defiling, wild magic, and realm magic (from _Birthright_). These were just things I came up with off the top of my head, so feel free to alter them for the web enhancement. If I can think of anymore, I'll post them here also.



Oooh, very cool!  Thanks a lot, *Alzrius*!  I was just lamenting the small number of magical traditions that reflect D&D spellcasting themes!


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## genshou

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Hence my opinion that it should use a similar format to EOM-R. One feat for items, one for Permanent Spells.



Now I'm confused.  Were there meant to be two separate feats in _Mythic Earth_, one for items and one for permanent spells?  Do they have the same prerequisites and the same CP costs?


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## RangerWickett

genshou said:
			
		

> Now I'm confused.  Were there meant to be two separate feats in _Mythic Earth_, one for items and one for permanent spells?  Do they have the same prerequisites and the same CP costs?




*The short answer:*
I think it is a mistake to allow permanent spells to be available at a moment's notice. I want there to still be one feat required - Craft Permanent Spell - but permanent spells and permanent items should take the same amount of time and CP to create. The only difference should be that with a permanent spell you sacrifice the ability to loan the benefit to an ally for the security in knowing no one's going to take your item away.


*The long answer:*
Well, in EOM-R there were three feats. Craft Charged Item, Craft Wondrous Item, and Craft Permanent Spell. In Mythic Earth I originally had two feats - Craft Permanent Item and Craft Permanent Spell, but then I cut it down to one feat and tried a few different ways to balance the fact that I wanted Permanent Spells to be available at a moment's notice, instead of requiring days or weeks of work. I basically wanted to make curses be available.

There's a fine tradition in fantasy and folklore of people laying curses on those who do them wrong, and creating that curse does not take the person days and days of item creation. They just say something like, "For the crimes you have committed against the gypsies, I curse you! _Thinner!_"

My mind changed a few times while writing as I tried to figure out how best to do this. When I sent the book off for layout, I thought, "Okay, one feat works for all permanent effects. That way you can make curses by spending CP, even if you aren't high level. All is good." 

I unfortunately had a brainfart and did not realize that there suddenly was no reason to ever make yourself, say, a cloak of resistance (spending CP and many days on it) when you could just make, say, a tattoo of resistance as a permanent spell instead of an item (spending only CP and no time).

My goal is 1) to make minor items (a la potions and scrolls) easy to get, 2) to require a feat to create reusable items and items that grant enduring benefits, and 3) to allow spellcasters to create curses.

I feel the current system handles 1 and 2 well, but 3 doesn't quite fit. The rule that I intended to let people cast instant curses (bad things for your enemies) instead lets people create instant magic items (good things for your allies). The problem is that curses are really hard to define in a flexible system like this.

I could easily say, "If you're casting a permanent spell on a bad guy, spend CP, and it's a curse, and it doesn't take any extra time." But that requires lots of GM adjudication. I mean, is it a _curse_ to make someone be mentally dominated? Making someone your slave isn't really curse-like, in my opinion, but I could see a GM saying that it would work if the person was aware that they had no free will. 

What, though, if a player said, "Tom's character is pissing me off. I'm going to curse him so he's a big, brutish, ugly beast, so that his appearance matches his personality." Tom's character ends up getting a bonus to a bunch of ability scores, and great natural attacks, and sure, Tom might roleplay his character being unhappy, but who are we fooling? This is D&D. He'd _find_ a way to reconcile the problem. 

"Oh darn, I'm big and strong and ugly and I guess I'll just have to get used to this. Well, let's go fight monsters. I hope my ugliness doesn't inhibit my monster-slaying."

xx

In myths and folk tales, curses usually cause grief to the cursed person. Prince turned into something nasty (toad, a big furry beast, a waifish girl), or princess cast into an endless sleep, or a wronged gypsy returning a guilty conscience to a murderous vampire. Or turning a unicorn into a young woman. Or a tomb causing ambiguous 'doom' to befall people who steal from it. Or taking away someone's memories.

So yeah, I guess I'm still having a hard time figuring out how to handle curses. But I do think that permanent spells should have the same time and CP cost as normal magic items, but that there should only be one feat required to make them.


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## RangerWickett

By the way, I've emailed Marius Delphus to see if he'd be able to make a few revisions to the text to fix this error, include the missing strong Courage emotion, and correct a few other problems pointed out in reviews. In this case, it appears a good thing that the POD option has not been activated yet.


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## John Q. Mayhem

Alzrius said:
			
		

> *Defiling [Tradition]*
> You believe that your magic is powered by stealing the life force of plants.
> *Benefit:* You gain access to all magic skills. However, casting spontaneous spells takes four rounds, since you need to gather life energy from the ground around you. During these rounds, enemies take an initiative penalty equal to ½ the level of the spell you’re casting.
> *Rituals:* Rituals of this tradition blight the land around them. For a ten foot radius per spell level, the land is permanently razed, unable to ever support life again.
> *Mishaps:* You are unable to draw energy from the foliage around you, and instead draw it from yourself, taking 1 point of damage per spell level.




These are cool, but the penalty-to-Init thing would be hard as heck for a DM to handle.


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## RangerWickett

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Here's a few from classic D&D: elven bladesinging, Shadow Weave Magic, fiend-worshipping, defiling, wild magic, and realm magic (from _Birthright_). These were just things I came up with off the top of my head, so feel free to alter them for the web enhancement. If I can think of anymore, I'll post them here also.




Alzrius, may I have permission to use those?


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## Alzrius

John Q. Mayhem said:
			
		

> These are cool, but the penalty-to-Init thing would be hard as heck for a DM to handle.




You think so? I didn't think it'd be that bad, since there aren't usually many initiative modifiers beyond those for each individual. I also used it because it was the penalty that _Dark Sun_ assigned to other characters in the radius of the defiling when it happened.



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Alzrius, may I have permission to use those?




Absolutely. Please edit, modify, or change them however you feel will make them better (and in looking back over these, I can see they really could use some cleaning up).


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## Alzrius

Here are a couple more tradition feats I thought of (and one associated mage feat). Both of the tradition feats are inspired by _Dragonlance_. Specifically, they're High Sorcery, and how High Sorcery was powered by draining magic items in the Fifth Age. Please feel free to use these as well.

*Astronomancy [Tradition]*
You believe your magic comes from the power of celestial bodies.
*Prerequisites:* Knowledge (nature) 4 ranks.
*Benefit:* You gain access to the magic skills Attack, Defend, and Divine.
Every month the heavens align favorably for you, granting you a +2 bonus to your caster levels. However, opposite this time they align against you, and you take a -2 penalty.
*Rituals:* Rituals for this tradition involve drawing a chart of the heavens to map the paths of power you’re invoking. Doing so requires a Knowledge (nature) check with the DC equal to (5 + ½ the spell’s level).
*Mishaps:* Mishaps in this ritual misalign your stellar connection, and the celestial power temporarily overloads through your body, leaving you staggered for a number of rounds equal to 1/4 the attempted spell’s level.

*Leeching [Tradition]*
You believe your magic comes from draining the power of magic items.
*Benefits:* You gain access to all magical skills. However, you may only cast spells if you have at least one active magic item on your person. Casting a spontaneous spell leaves all of your magic items inoperative for one round while they recharge themselves. A signature spell only leaves a single magic item inoperative for 1 round instead of all of your magic items. When casting a spontaneous spell, you may, as a swift action, perform a touch attack against an adjacent creature. If the touch attack succeeds, one of their magic items (determined randomly) is rendered inoperative for 1 round, and none of your items are drained. If the touched target has no magic items, yours are drained as normal. You may not use this touch attack in conjunction with another spell or special ability.
*Rituals:* Rituals for this tradition must use a magic item to drain. A magic item drained by way of this ritual remains inoperative for one minute per spell level.
*Mishaps:* Mishaps in this ritual place too great a drain on your items. All of the magic items on your person are inoperative for a number of rounds equal to 1/3 the attempted spell’s level.

*Targeted Leeching [Mage]*
You can drain specific items from your enemies to power your spells.
*Prerequisite:* Leeching tradition feat.
*Benefit:* When making a touch attack against a creature to cast a spontaneous spell, you may deliberately target a single magic item. The touch attack is made against the target’s normal AC plus a size bonus for the size of the magic item. Visible items under a cover (e.g. a sword in a sheath, a ring under a glove, etc.) are viable targets.
*Normal:* When making a touch attack to drain a magic item on another creature, the drained item is determined randomly.


----------



## Borlon

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Astronomancy [Tradition]
> You believe your magic comes from the power of celestial bodies.
> Prerequisites: Knowledge (nature) 4 ranks.
> Benefit: You gain access to the magic skills Attack, Defend, and Divine.
> Every month the heavens align favorably for you, granting you a +2 bonus to your caster levels. However, opposite this time they align against you, and you take a -2 penalty.
> Rituals: Rituals for this tradition involve drawing a chart of the heavens to map the paths of power you’re invoking. Doing so requires a Knowledge (nature) check with the DC equal to (5 + ½ the spell’s level).
> Mishaps: Mishaps in this ritual misalign your stellar connection, and the celestial power temporarily overloads through your body, leaving you staggered for a number of rounds equal to 1/4 the attempted spell’s level.
> 
> Leeching [Tradition]
> You believe your magic comes from draining the power of magic items.
> Benefits: You gain access to all magical skills. However, you may only cast spells if you have at least one active magic item on your person. Casting a spontaneous spell leaves all of your magic items inoperative for one round while they recharge themselves. A signature spell only leaves a single magic item inoperative for 1 round instead of all of your magic items. When casting a spontaneous spell, you may, as a swift action, perform a touch attack against an adjacent creature. If the touch attack succeeds, one of their magic items (determined randomly) is rendered inoperative for 1 round, and none of your items are drained. If the touched target has no magic items, yours are drained as normal. You may not use this touch attack in conjunction with another spell or special ability.
> Rituals: Rituals for this tradition must use a magic item to drain. A magic item drained by way of this ritual remains inoperative for one minute per spell level.
> Mishaps: Mishaps in this ritual place too great a drain on your items. All of the magic items on your person are inoperative for a number of rounds equal to 1/3 the attempted spell’s level.



1 round doesn't seem very long.  Do you really think this cost is enough to warrant granting them all magical skills?

For Astromancy, how long each month does the period of good/bad favor last?


----------



## Alzrius

Borlon said:
			
		

> 1 round doesn't seem very long.  Do you really think this cost is enough to warrant granting them all magical skills?




In all honesty, yes. Remember, they can't cast spells either while all of their magic items are inoperative, since they need to have at least one operational item on them to cast spells. Without their magic items, and unable to use magic, they're effectively sitting ducks, and it seemed unfair to make that condition last longer than 1 round. That said, I'm not married to the idea, and it's certainly open to change if someone presents a good reason for it. Likewise, maybe an idea would be that signature spells would only drain one item for a couple rounds, instead of one (though I wanted signature spellcasting to portray a clear advantage over other spontaneous spells with this tradition).



> _For Astromancy, how long each month does the period of good/bad favor last?_




My default idea was three days each (e.g. full moon and new moon), but I sort of accidently/on-purpose left it blank so that a player and GM could decide the duration for themselves. In hindsight, that probably wasn't useful at all.


----------



## RangerWickett

I feel like dancing, despite it being 1:30 in the morning on a Monday, me being hungry, and my eyes being strained from looking at the computer screen for hours. And the reason? Well, because I read a thread where a guy recommended Mythic Earth as the best magic system he's seen for d20 ever.

Makes a guy feel a little proud, y'know?

But, I did make a few mistakes. I'm attaching a file here with a highly overhauled magic item creation section. I used this thread as inspiration to get things right, but I wrote the whole thing just tonight, so I'd appreciate if folks could give it a read-through, offer comments, and point out any errors.

Also, Alzrius, I'm attaching the new fantasy traditions I'm hoping to get entered into the Appendix with this little update. Let me know if you like how I tweaked things.


----------



## Verequus

Unfortunately, I still haven't read EoM-ME entirely - first I didn't have time to read and then I needed to find out, who dies in Harry Potter 6 (yes, the translation came out one week ago, but I couldn't get my hands on it until a few days ago). So I'm not sure, if my findings haven't been reported already:

Page 5 refers to table, which should be above the text passage, where this table is mentioned, but actually it is right next to this text passage.

Page 7: "Every ritual is based in a magical tradition, and some require other feats to work properly (such as Command Undead or Craft Permanet Spell)." "Permanent" misses a "n".

Page 10: "A ritual spell can only be a communal spell if it is designed that way; you cannot simply turn any ritual into a communal spell." What do you mean with that sentence exactly?

Regarding your rules revision:

"Activated Items

Activated items can be used as a standard action, and can be activated once per day. The Purchase DC of an activated item is 23 + spell level if the item can be used once per day. If the item can be used two or three times per day, increase the Purchase DC by 1. If it can be used four or five times per day, increase the Purchase DC by 2. If it can be used an unlimited number of times per day, increase the Purchase DC by 6. If it is a spell trigger item, reduce the cost by 1."

That has to be reformulated, because the first sentence is somewhat contradictional to rest.


----------



## RangerWickett

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Page 10: "A ritual spell can only be a communal spell if it is designed that way; you cannot simply turn any ritual into a communal spell." What do you mean with that sentence exactly?




I mean that, say you find a spellbook with a ritual to call down a pillar of fire. That ritual of fire can be performed by you, or by you with a few allies, but the ritual was not intended to be a communal spell, so you can't go and gather to townsfolk to help you cast it.  Only a ritual that was intended as a communal spell can be cast thus.


----------



## genshou

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I mean that, say you find a spellbook with a ritual to call down a pillar of fire. That ritual of fire can be performed by you, or by you with a few allies, but the ritual was not intended to be a communal spell, so you can't go and gather to townsfolk to help you cast it.  Only a ritual that was intended as a communal spell can be cast thus.



Can a ritual intended to be cast as a communal ritual be cast as a non-communal ritual should the ritual leader so desire?  You know, like if the high priest's followers are presently running around on fire, but he needs to cast the ritual to summon his "god" (a high-CR devil) anyway.

Don't ask where that example came from; I'm being deprived of sleep... :\


----------



## RangerWickett

Honestly, I hadn't decided either way. I'd generally say yes, but if you lost enough followers, you probably wouldn't have quite enough free levels to cast the ritual. This would cause the ritual leader to have to make much higher spellcasting checks. Which works for the old 'break in while they're doing the ritual and mess up their spell' plan.


----------



## Alzrius

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Also, Alzrius, I'm attaching the new fantasy traditions I'm hoping to get entered into the Appendix with this little update. Let me know if you like how I tweaked things.




Looking good! I can also see why you dropped the fiend-worshipping one, since it cut a little to close to some of the existing traditions. Any particular reason why Astronomancy, Leeching, and Targeted Leeching didn't make the cut? They seemed original enough, or so I thought.


----------



## RangerWickett

One part is that I wanted to move onto other projects. Another is that the leeching rules would have variable value depending on how many magic items are in a game, and I wanted to keep the book flexible. As for Astronomancy, it just didn't feel interesting enough of a mechanic.


----------



## Verequus

Okay, I've finally worked myself through EoM-ME. And I found several things:

Page 34: "Russell Vanderschmidt is too old to pin himself down with alleigances as he did in his youth." Allegiances isn't spelt correctly.

Page 39: "Because you are creating an entire spell, the dispel attempt takes only a standard action, not two full rounds. If your spell functions, you dispel the targeted spell." What do you mean with this sentence? Shouldn't be creating an entire spell last 2 rounds - or do you mean actually, that you don't create an actual spell?

Page 39: "The check is modified only by your ranks in Spellcraft, not by your Intelligence modifier or any other ability except those the specifically say they assist dispel attempts." The "the" after "except" should be "that".

Page 41: Confusion should be allowed to be taken as moderate and strong effects, although the only benefit is, that a simple save won't help the victim.

Page 51: No mentioning, what a scryed place counts regarding the Int check DC?

Page 53: The class skill "Profession (Wis)" should be listed as "Profession (any) (Wis)".

No telepathic communication with Charm?

How do you heal undead, if Heal harms them?

Why are certain uses of enhancements restricted in the number of times, which they can be selected?

I haven't seen an option, where Attack, Illusion, Move and Transform spells have no save.

Why can't the mental stats be improved in d20Modern? And why is the option missing to improve a Constitution skill (although there is only one skill)? Why isn't the bonus for strength skills doubled?

I'm missing Still Spell and Silent Spell. Are other metamagic feats available?


----------



## John Q. Mayhem

I think that Still and Silent are gone because any magician can use magical focus to cast any spell without verbal or somatic components.


----------



## RangerWickett

I'm highlighting the original text, and putting my replies in normal.

Okay, I've finally worked myself through EoM-ME. And I found several things:

Page 34: "Russell Vanderschmidt is too old to pin himself down with alleigances as he did in his youth." Allegiances isn't spelt correctly.

Page 39: "Because you are creating an entire spell, the dispel attempt takes only a standard action, not two full rounds. If your spell functions, you dispel the targeted spell." What do you mean with this sentence? Shouldn't be creating an entire spell last 2 rounds - or do you mean actually, that you don't create an actual spell?

It should be, "Because you _aren't_ creating an entire spell. . . ." You can counterspell by readying a standard action, and even cast a normal dispel as a standard action. Because magic is easier to get ahold of, I wanted it to be easier to get rid of magic too. This way things like charms and such aren't so debilitating. Any spellcaster can try to dispel, and it isn't too hard.

Page 39: "The check is modified only by your ranks in Spellcraft, not by your Intelligence modifier or any other ability except those the specifically say they assist dispel attempts." The "the" after "except" should be "that".

Page 41: Confusion should be allowed to be taken as moderate and strong effects, although the only benefit is, that a simple save won't help the victim.

Page 51: No mentioning, what a scryed place counts regarding the Int check DC?

What do you mean? The only Intelligence check involved with scrying is to see whether you notice someone's scrying on you. A scryed place can't make an Intelligence check, because it's not intelligent.

Page 53: The class skill "Profession (Wis)" should be listed as "Profession (any) (Wis)".

Not in D20 Modern, and I didn't think so either in D&D. In D20 Modern, Profession is your 'make money' skill. It is not tied to a single job.

No telepathic communication with Charm?

I figure it can easily fall in with the existing telepathic compulsion enhancements. You're basically contacting their mind and choosing not to control it. They'd still get a Will save to boot you out, though.

How do you heal undead, if Heal harms them?

Not all the possible uses of spells are covered. I'm sure a character with an appropriate tradition could create a Cure spell that can heal undead.

Why are certain uses of enhancements restricted in the number of times, which they can be selected?

It's a guideline, mostly intended to keep magic items from going out of control. A Purchase DC 30 isn't _that_ much easier than DC 35, so I either would have to drastically recost magic items to make anything other than 1st level spells unavailable, or I'd have to make detailed charts like in EOM-R showing a non-arithmetic progression. As usual, the GM can freely choose to let some enhancements be taken more times, thought I'd suggest they don't keep the same cost progression.

The goal was to provide a workable system that could do 95% of what you want to do in a game, and give the GM a baseline for winging the rest. For instance, in my game last night, a player wanted to cast a spell to find out whether his cel phone was being tapped. I ruled it as a 5th level Divine spell, and we ran with it. 

I haven't seen an option, where Attack, Illusion, Move and Transform spells have no save.

What do you mean? Spells that can be hostile always have a save.

Why can't the mental stats be improved in d20Modern? And why is the option missing to improve a Constitution skill (although there is only one skill)? Why isn't the bonus for strength skills doubled?

I don't like stat-boosting items, especially not mental stat-boosting items. I just don't like the feel of them, especially since they're so ubiquitous in games. So I'm not saying such magic is impossible in a modern game, but it's something I feel the GM and the player should work out, and it shouldn't be _assumed_ to exist.

Sure, boost Concentration. I'd suggest Cure, or possibly Charm.

Strength skills? Flying and such is harder to acquire than in normal EOM, so such skills are actually useful for longer.

I'm missing Still Spell and Silent Spell. Are other metamagic feats available?

John Q Mayhem had it right.


----------



## Verequus

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I'm highlighting the original text, and putting my replies in normal.
> 
> Page 51: No mentioning, what a scryed place counts regarding the Int check DC?
> 
> What do you mean? The only Intelligence check involved with scrying is to see whether you notice someone's scrying on you. A scryed place can't make an Intelligence check, because it's not intelligent.




I mean, that for a teleport spell the familiarity of the target sets the DC. A scryed place should increase the familiarity somewhat.



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> No telepathic communication with Charm?
> 
> I figure it can easily fall in with the existing telepathic compulsion enhancements. You're basically contacting their mind and choosing not to control it. They'd still get a Will save to boot you out, though.




Hmm, I'd like it better, if you can drop the control part and gain the ability to communicate for the entire duration freely. As I see it, you could only send one-way messages and this only once, unless you take Telepathic Domination.



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I haven't seen an option, where Attack, Illusion, Move and Transform spells have no save.
> 
> What do you mean? Spells that can be hostile always have a save.




"If you roll a natural 20 on your spellcasting check to cast a Create spell, affected creatures
suffer a –4 penalty to their saves to resist. Create spells that do not grant saves are
unaffected." How do I cast spells, which don't require saves? The touch spell option isn't available.

What about alignment? In D&D it is still big.

Also I'm wondering about the 20 gp conversion for one craft point.


----------



## RangerWickett

I mean, that for a teleport spell the familiarity of the target sets the DC. A scryed place should increase the familiarity somewhat.

It'd probably count as 'viewed once' (DC 10).

Hmm, I'd like it better, if you can drop the control part and gain the ability to communicate for the entire duration freely. As I see it, you could only send one-way messages and this only once, unless you take Telepathic Domination.

I think two-way communication is fine for telepathic command, but each person should only be able to communicate something as complex as the command's actual complexity. By which I mean that if you cast Telepathic Command, Standard on someone, you could send a message that's one or two sentences long, and that person could reply with a similar length message. Real telepathic communication would require 'complex,' which would be unlimited, and both you and the target could talk back and forth.

"If you roll a natural 20 on your spellcasting check to cast a Create spell, affected creatures
suffer a –4 penalty to their saves to resist. Create spells that do not grant saves are
unaffected." How do I cast spells, which don't require saves? The touch spell option isn't available.

I meant that some Create spells simply don't require saves by their very nature. If you create a sword, rolling a nat 20 doesn't matter. But if you try to create a cage to trap someone, rolling a nat 20 makes it harder for them to resist.

What about alignment? In D&D it is still big.

Also I'm wondering about the 20 gp conversion for one craft point.

What would you like to know about using alignment in this system? Attack could theoretically gain a set of aligned energy types. Divine could gain the ability to discern alignments (already sorta included with Reading), and Illusion could hide it (also already sorta covered). The rest of the magical skills don't really need alignment rules, because unlike core EOM, targeting isn't limited by element or alignment or creature type.

The 20 gp per 1 CP cost is a pretty much a reverse engineering of the costs in EOM-R. I kept most MP costs in EOM-R equivalent to spell level costs for ME, and just divided gp cost by 20 to get CP cost.


----------



## RangerWickett

I'm sending this out to folks who allow RPGNow publishers to contact them, but I wanted to post here too, because some folks were waiting for this news (and not everyone accepts emails). We'll be making a formal press release in a day or two.



_Elements of Magic - Mythic Earth_ has received a few small updates and errata in response to feedback on the EN World messageboards and in the reviews at RPGNow. Magic item creation costs have been streamlined, the section on mythic themes has been expanded with examples and brief adventure suggestions, and new traditions have been added to the appendix to help add more D&D-specific content.

This email should include a link to download a copy of the updated file. Otherwise, I think you can redownload the book from here, but don't quote me on that.

Additionally, the book is now available in print format. This version includes all the updates mentioned above. Unfortunately, if you already purchased a pdf copy and wish to get a print copy, there's no easy system in place to reduce the print cost, but email me at RangerWickett@hotmail.com and I'll work out a deal.


----------



## Verequus

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> "If you roll a natural 20 on your spellcasting check to cast a Create spell, affected creatures suffer a –4 penalty to their saves to resist. Create spells that do not grant saves are unaffected." How do I cast spells, which don't require saves? The touch spell option isn't available.
> 
> I meant that some Create spells simply don't require saves by their very nature. If you create a sword, rolling a nat 20 doesn't matter. But if you try to create a cage to trap someone, rolling a nat 20 makes it harder for them to resist.




I mean, that every skill states something like above, but there doesn't seem to be a skill, which allows both use the save and no-saves option at once. Or do I miss something?



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Also I'm wondering about the 20 gp conversion for one craft point.
> 
> The 20 gp per 1 CP cost is a pretty much a reverse engineering of the costs in EOM-R. I kept most MP costs in EOM-R equivalent to spell level costs for ME, and just divided gp cost by 20 to get CP cost.




That seems strange, because in core rules the conversion for 1 XP is 5 gp, not 20 gp.

Why is Death damage only through certain feats available? If it is too strong, why have those feats no higher prerequisites?

What happens, if I dispel magic items? Or things created with Create, but made permanent?


----------



## RangerWickett

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> I mean, that every skill states something like above, but there doesn't seem to be a skill, which allows both use the save and no-saves option at once. Or do I miss something?




You missed something.

Okay, here's what I meant. Not every spell requires a save. To use a core example, create food and water doesn't require a save, because no one needs to resist anything. Detect Magic doesn't require a save either. 

The 'natural 20' clause is there so that rolling a nat 20 on an attack spell, charm spell, or other hostile spell will have the same thrill as rolling a nat 20 on a melee attack. Rolling a nat 20 gets you a little extra boost by incuring a penalty to resist the spell's save. However, seeing as some spells simply don't require saves, rolling a nat 20 for them just has no effect.

There is no way in the system to make spells that _should_ require a save, not require a save. An Attack spell that gives a weapon the flaming enhancement has no save; it doesn't need one. An Attack spell that deals direct damage _always_ has a save, but if you roll a nat 20, that save is harder to resist.

Here's a weird metaphor. If spellcasting were a toll road, then the rule would be 1 in every 20 people on motorcycles don't have to pay the toll. People in cars shouldn't ask how to make their car into a motorcycle. Motorcycles are spells with saves. Cars are spells without saves. You can't turn a car into a motorcycle.




> That seems strange, because in core rules the conversion for 1 XP is 5 gp, not 20 gp.




In the core rules, if something costs 250 GP market value, it costs you 10 XP and 125 GP to make. In the modern system, though, money is a much harder beast to wrangle, so I could not easily say, "The item has a Purchase DC 25. To make it, you must spend 10 XP and provide materials with a Purchase DC 15." To avoid having to make that sort of weird cost calculation, I made magic items cost only XP (or rather, Craft Points).

Thus, instead of the XP cost being 1/25 of the GP market value cost, it's 1/20. Does that make sense?



> Why is Death damage only through certain feats available? If it is too strong, why have those feats no higher prerequisites?




Death effects are more powerful, akin to the specialized movement abilities like fly, teleport, and turning ethereal. Only some people can access them. Generally, the tradition feats that provide access to Death damage are slightly weaker than the other tradition feats.



> What happens, if I dispel magic items? Or things created with Create, but made permanent?




The following is in the updated version:

*Dispelling Magic Items*
If you successfully dispel a magic item, permanent spell, or curse, its effects are suppressed for one minute. When attempting to dispel a permanent effect, you can choose to increase the DC by 1 to increase the duration to 10 minutes, or increase it by 3 to increase the duration to one hour, or by 8 to increase the duration to one day.


----------



## Cheiromancer

Wait.  So if you dispel a permanent spell, it comes back again?  How do you get rid of it for good?


----------



## RangerWickett

You cast a permanent dispel magic. If you want to negate a permanent magic effect, you need to spend XP. Though there is an easier alternative -- just break or kill whatever the permanent spell is on.

Oh, and there's a fine line that I probably didn't do a good enough job delineating. A 'permanent spell' is one where you spend XP to make it like a magic item. That is different from a spell with a permanent duration, which is a spell with 30 MP spent on the duration enhancement. You can make the spell last forever that way, but if it's dispelled, the spell ends.


----------



## Cheiromancer

OK.  I'm waiting for POD to arrive in the mail before I really go over it, but I did glance through the PDF... what's up with squirrelmancy?  Is there an inside joke that I'm missing?


----------



## RangerWickett

It's best that you not know the truth. It is too horrible, and it would drive you mad.

. . .

In truth, earlier this year there was a big 'pro-squirrel' movement on the boards which lasted for about a month. It reminded me of a friend of mine who mentioned that at her college there was a group called the Society of the Singular Squirrel, which joked that all squirrels were the same critter. It seemed like as fine an inspiration for an elder cult as a fake squid monster.


----------



## Cheiromancer

More seriously, I have a question about Fey rituals.  It says that people have to close their eyes at the end.  Suppose, for the sake of argument, that they had blindsense, or were dragons, or lacked eyelids (like Mostin in Sep's story hour).  Does the ritual not work?


----------



## Alzrius

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> It reminded me of a friend of mine who mentioned that at her college there was a group called the Society of the Singular Squirrel, which joked that all squirrels were the same critter. It seemed like as fine an inspiration for an elder cult as a fake squid monster.




Ye gods, those devils have real worshippers?! I remain convinced that the squirrells found on college campuses in Indiana (I have yet to see them anywhere else) are mutant versions, being both yellow-tinted, and twice the size of a normal grey squirrell. They scare the heck out of me.


----------



## RangerWickett

Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> More seriously, I have a question about Fey rituals.  It says that people have to close their eyes at the end.  Suppose, for the sake of argument, that they had blindsense, or were dragons, or lacked eyelids (like Mostin in Sep's story hour).  Does the ritual not work?




LOL

I think the question is far too serious for the actual topic it addresses. The 'close your eyes' is _not_ for game balance. It's just flavor, so you should rule it however best fits the flavor of your game. However, as a guideline, the point is that you're supposed to try not to see what's actually granting the effect of the ritual. People without eyelids can look at their feet. Creatures with blindsense can I imagine turn it off somehow (cover their ears? think of something else?). Or maybe because they're somewhat magical themselves, they're allowed to see what happens, but not to speak of it, lest the spell fail. And if these options don't work, it makes for an interesting challenge if they want to perform this kind of ritual.


----------



## Verequus

Sorry for the delay, but I was thinking about that a bit longer, so I wouldn't miss something important.



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> There is no way in the system to make spells that _should_ require a save, not require a save. An Attack spell that gives a weapon the flaming enhancement has no save; it doesn't need one. An Attack spell that deals direct damage _always_ has a save, but if you roll a nat 20, that save is harder to resist.




So there is no way to exchange a save against a (ranged) touch attack?



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> In the core rules, if something costs 250 GP market value, it costs you 10 XP and 125 GP to make. In the modern system, though, money is a much harder beast to wrangle, so I could not easily say, "The item has a Purchase DC 25. To make it, you must spend 10 XP and provide materials with a Purchase DC 15." To avoid having to make that sort of weird cost calculation, I made magic items cost only XP (or rather, Craft Points).
> 
> Thus, instead of the XP cost being 1/25 of the GP market value cost, it's 1/20. Does that make sense?




So instead requiring (sp?) XP and money you only require XP, but a bit more than in than in the core rules to make it fair?



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Death effects are more powerful, akin to the specialized movement abilities like fly, teleport, and turning ethereal. Only some people can access them. Generally, the tradition feats that provide access to Death damage are slightly weaker than the other tradition feats.




I didn't notice the power difference. It would have been to have a guideline included, so one can gauge the power of a tradition feat directly.



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> The following is in the updated version:
> 
> *Dispelling Magic Items*
> If you successfully dispel a magic item, permanent spell, or curse, its effects are suppressed for one minute. When attempting to dispel a permanent effect, you can choose to increase the DC by 1 to increase the duration to 10 minutes, or increase it by 3 to increase the duration to one hour, or by 8 to increase the duration to one day.




Are curses also permanent effects? And if I create permanent spells with create, do the creations vanish for the duration of the dispel spell?

BTW, when do the proofreaders get the updated version? Unfortunately, RPGnow sends update links only to people, who have bought a product. And if you haven't that already since I checked, I suggest to update the description on RPGnow, so it reflects the revision and that the weak points in the reviews have been addressed.


----------



## RangerWickett

> Sorry for the delay, but I was thinking about that a bit longer, so I wouldn't miss something important.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RangerWickett said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no way in the system to make spells that _should_ require a save, not require a save. An Attack spell that gives a weapon the flaming enhancement has no save; it doesn't need one. An Attack spell that deals direct damage _always_ has a save, but if you roll a nat 20, that save is harder to resist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So there is no way to exchange a save against a (ranged) touch attack?
Click to expand...



Nope. That was one of the greatest complaints from EOM-R. Touch attacks were just better than saves in most instances. You can still use Attack to enhance an item with bonus damage dice, but you'd have to bypass armor. So no, there aren't touch attacks. If you wanted to introduce touch attack spells, I'd have to suggest increasing the spell's level to compensate, but I couldn't say by how much.



> RangerWickett said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the core rules, if something costs 250 GP market value, it costs you 10 XP and 125 GP to make. In the modern system, though, money is a much harder beast to wrangle, so I could not easily say, "The item has a Purchase DC 25. To make it, you must spend 10 XP and provide materials with a Purchase DC 15." To avoid having to make that sort of weird cost calculation, I made magic items cost only XP (or rather, Craft Points).
> 
> Thus, instead of the XP cost being 1/25 of the GP market value cost, it's 1/20. Does that make sense?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So instead requiring (sp?) XP and money you only require XP, but a bit more than in than in the core rules to make it fair?
Click to expand...



Yes.



> RangerWickett said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Death effects are more powerful, akin to the specialized movement abilities like fly, teleport, and turning ethereal. Only some people can access them. Generally, the tradition feats that provide access to Death damage are slightly weaker than the other tradition feats.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't notice the power difference. It would have been to have a guideline included, so one can gauge the power of a tradition feat directly.
Click to expand...



It's really a balancing act to make sure a given tradition isn't too powerful. I think I may have made a mistake when the PC Mage in my campaign just leveled and took both Telepath and Postmodern Magus at the same level, which basically gives him a +4 bonus to his Charm spellcasting, among other things. He's becoming quite the versatile spellcaster, with Wicca, Spanish Inquisitor, and now Telepath. 

But anyway, the traditions that can get death damage generally don't get as many of the utility spells. They have to focus on attacking.



> RangerWickett said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The following is in the updated version:
> 
> *Dispelling Magic Items*
> If you successfully dispel a magic item, permanent spell, or curse, its effects are suppressed for one minute. When attempting to dispel a permanent effect, you can choose to increase the DC by 1 to increase the duration to 10 minutes, or increase it by 3 to increase the duration to one hour, or by 8 to increase the duration to one day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are curses also permanent effects? And if I create permanent spells with create, do the creations vanish for the duration of the dispel spell?
Click to expand...



Curses are permanent (like a magic item) not permanent like a spell with a permanent duration (to use a core example, if you dispel continual flame, the spell ends for good). I'd say yes to the create question. If you make a permanent bridge, it could be dispelled temporarily.



> BTW, when do the proofreaders get the updated version? Unfortunately, RPGnow sends update links only to people, who have bought a product. And if you haven't that already since I checked, I suggest to update the description on RPGnow, so it reflects the revision and that the weak points in the reviews have been addressed.




Email me. I'm sorry I forgot about that, but I've been very busy with the new store. Heck, I still have 3 proposals in my inbox that I haven't addressed yet. I'm trying to finish all my current projects before starting anything new.

But yeah, email me, and I'll send you an updated copy.


----------



## Verequus

Is there a particular reason, why you limit the amount of permanent spell effects on magic items? I can understand that in d20Modern, but in core there are many magic items, which can't be reproduced, like the Staff of Fire.


----------



## RangerWickett

For d20 Modern I did it because figuring out a Purchase DC for an item with multiple magical effects is hard. To buy a +3 longsword that shoots fireballs, do you have to make two Wealth checks? Do you reverse engineer the costs and add them together, then figure out a new Purchase DC? As it is, I think the second option is better, but it doesn't address certain problems.

A key element of the Wealth system is that anything over DC 15 costs you at least 1 Wealth point automatically. If you turn two DC 25 items into one DC 29 item, it becomes much cheaper to acquire the two effects. If you had a Wealth of 14 and you wanted to buy two DC 25 items, the first one would knock your Wealth down by 2d6+1 (leaving you with, on average, Wealth 6), and the second item would reduce your Wealth another 2d6+1, probably leaving you a pauper. If on the other hand you just had to buy one DC 29 item, it only costs you 2d6+1 again.

For D&D, though, yeah, feel free to add on as many magical effects as you want onto one item, but like in EOM-R I'd recommend you not allow a single item to have more than one 'attack enhancement' on it. So if you want a +2 flaming sword, you need to have a single spell for +2 flaming. You can't put two cheaper spells -- one for +2, one for flaming.


----------



## Verequus

I think, you've forgotten to address the following issue: What is the caster level for a supernatural effect and for a magic item, if subjected to an Anti-Magic Field? HD and spell level, respectively?


----------



## RangerWickett

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> I think, you've forgotten to address the following issue: What is the caster level for a supernatural effect and for a magic item, if subjected to an Anti-Magic Field? HD and spell level, respectively?




For a magic item, yes, it'd be spell level. For a supernatural ability, hit dice is the only easy solution, but it means that some creatures will simply not lose their supernatural abilities, because they have too many hit dice. It's not so much a problem in D20 Modern because not many high-HD critters show up, but if you use Mythic Earth for D&D, you should probably think of the antimagic option as more of an anti-_spell_ defense. Stopping creatures' supernatural abilities is much harder.


----------



## Verequus

In a thread about replacing the 50 charges of a wand with a die-degrading solution* Genshou mentioned, that in EoMME there is no possibility to create charged items. Is there a particular reason for this?


*Die-degrading is simple: You need only five dice (d20, d12, d8, d6 and d4). You start with a freshly created wand, so you take the d20. Each time you use a charge, you roll with the die. If you get a 1, then you use the next time the next smaller die. If you get another number, then you keep the current die. If you get finally a 1 with the d4, the wand has no charges. This method averages out to 50 charges over the long run and reduces bookkeeping. And getting only 5 charges has only a chance of 1/46080, so a player doesn't need to worry that much.


----------



## genshou

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> In a thread about replacing the 50 charges of a wand with a die-degrading solution* Genshou mentioned, that in EoMME there is no possibility to create charged items. Is there a particular reason for this?
> 
> 
> *Die-degrading is simple: You need only five dice (d20, d12, d8, d6 and d4). You start with a freshly created wand, so you take the d20. Each time you use a charge, you roll with the die. If you get a 1, then you use the next time the next smaller die. If you get another number, then you keep the current die. If you get finally a 1 with the d4, the wand has no charges. This method averages out to 50 charges over the long run and reduces bookkeeping. And getting only 5 charges has only a chance of 1/46080, so a player doesn't need to worry that much.



I mentioned it, and now I am the one being mentioned for it. 

I was thinking about just determining the dollar cost of a single-use item, multiplying by 50, and converting back to the new Purchase DC.  It's about the same as crafting 50 little beads that each have one casting of the spell in them, but instead the charges are all in one item, and the magic number of 50 would let me use the die degradation method.

So, *RangerWickett*, what say you?


----------



## Verequus

genshou said:
			
		

> I mentioned it, and now I am the one being mentioned for it.




Hey, give credit where credit is due.


----------



## Flynn

*Reposted from another thread...*

Good Afternoon, All,

I hope that Rangerwickett might see this and take the time to answer, but I also welcome the opinion of others on these boards.

The magic system detailed Mythic Earth - Elements Of Magic is pretty flexible, but I do have two questions regarding magical effects that I'd like to run by the group here.

1. How would I go about representing mage duels? In particular, a mage duel in which both mages continue to throw energy into a "manna bank" or "glowing disk" created by the duel to keep the captured energy from exploding until one fails his check and the disk unloads damage on the mage that failed? Any suggestions would be welcome.

2. If a character wanted to use Divine to allow someone else at a great distance to see through their own eyes, how would I go about doing that within this system? Or can it be done?

Thanks In Advance For Your Time,
Flynn


----------



## RangerWickett

Flynn said:
			
		

> 1. How would I go about representing mage duels? In particular, a mage duel in which both mages continue to throw energy into a "manna bank" or "glowing disk" created by the duel to keep the captured energy from exploding until one fails his check and the disk unloads damage on the mage that failed? Any suggestions would be welcome.




Do you mean like when Egg-chan and Lo-Pan battle in _Big Trouble in Little China_? The way you're describing it isn't exactly possible with the rules as written, but you could emulate it fairly well with a bit of imagination. Assume that both mages in that fight had the Wuxia Sorcery tradition, both had magical focus, and that Egg-Chan had readied an action to defend himself if Lo-Pan attacked. Lo-Pan fires an Attack spell, and Egg-Chan uses his readied action to counterspell the attack (which, if you use your own Attack spell, is easier, so that explains why his counterspell looks like another attack spell). This continues the next few turns, until Egg-Chan expends his magical focus to cast a quickened spell to enhance his defenses, allowing him to fire off his own attack. Both attacks hit, and each mage calls off the contest for dramatic reasons.

Or you could run it where the two mages summoned monsters and then used spells to buff their monsters.

I don't have the rules in Mythic Earth, but in my last fantasy campaign I had a house rule that allowed you to give up your action in your next round to cast a counterspell as a reaction. That allowed two mages to have duels without requiring that they each kept readying actions to counter each other.



> 2. If a character wanted to use Divine to allow someone else at a great distance to see through their own eyes, how would I go about doing that within this system? Or can it be done?
> 
> Thanks In Advance For Your Time,
> Flynn




You mean, like, I'm Professor Xavier, and I want Wolverine (who's in Siberia) to see what's happening in my mansion? Just a sec . . . I'll get back to this in a sec.


----------



## RangerWickett

Okay, I'd say you'd need to use Divine for remote viewing twice, once to reach the person, then again for them to reach back to you. For instance, assuming you're both familiar with the other, it's 6 levels to reach them (+4 familiar, +2 for same world but not in line of sight), and also 6 to go back, for a total of level 12. They would be able to see you and the area around you, or see through your eyes, or whatever else you wanted.


----------



## Verequus

I'm stilling missing an answer for the posts #71 and #72.


----------



## RangerWickett

genshou said:
			
		

> I mentioned it, and now I am the one being mentioned for it.
> 
> I was thinking about just determining the dollar cost of a single-use item, multiplying by 50, and converting back to the new Purchase DC.  It's about the same as crafting 50 little beads that each have one casting of the spell in them, but instead the charges are all in one item, and the magic number of 50 would let me use the die degradation method.
> 
> So, *RangerWickett*, what say you?




You could do that, sure. Honestly, I just didn't include it because I don't think charged items are interesting narrativistically or mechanically. I prefer magic items to be either strictly one-use, or something you can use forever. The half-way point of things like wands just irritate the hell out of me. I had forgotten about the die degradation, which is an okay idea, and easier to deal with than tracking charges for all your items, but I still don't see the point.

How often, in pre-D&D fantasy literature, were there items that had limited charges? Shopping in my mind is not what makes gaming fun. Sure, tricking out your character with the best gear can be cool, but once you have good gear, you ought to be able to keep it.

So yeah, there were a fair number of core rule things I could have converted for Mythic Earth (and many of them I did convert for EOM-R), but I decided some of them weren't worth keeping. You can accomplish effectively the same sort of things with less book-keeping.

I mean, hell, you _could_, if you wanted, create an item that gained charges based on how long a character of a given class possessed it, and then expended charges at different rates based on the phase of the moon. That would be much more interesting than simply having 50 charges and ticking them off as you use them.


----------



## Flynn

*Mage Dueling...*



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Do you mean like when Egg-chan and Lo-Pan battle in _Big Trouble in Little China_?




Hehehe. Actually, I was referring to the Quern of Gramarye from the Dray Prescot of Kregen series #23, Beasts of Antares, written by Ken Bulmer under the pseudonym of Alan Burt Akers. The Quern of Gramarye is a radiant disk of sorcerous power which appears in battles between wizards. However, the image wasn't as important as getting the basic concept across of mages dueling by sending out forces that are held away by the other mage, until one fails. Your suggestions should work for playing that kind of scene out.

Originally, I was thinking of adding a new enhancement under Attack called Retributive Resonance for that kind of thing, but I just couldn't figure out how to make it all work out right and still be useful without being too powerful. The spell-counterspell approach will probably be a better idea. I might even include a new feat, Mage Duelist, that allows your home rule into my campaign as an immediate action, so to speak. (This would be based on Immediate Dodge from the Netbook of Feats, most likely.)

* * * * *

MAGE DUELIST [Mage]
You may spontaneously elect to counterspell an incoming spell that you are aware of.
Prerequisite: Quicken Spell
Benefit: As an immediate action, you can elect to give up your next turn to perform a counterspell against an incoming spell. You must not be flat-footed, and you must be aware of the incoming spell. Your initiative does not change; you simply do not take an action on your next turn.
Notes: An immediate action can be taken at any point, even when it's not your turn.

* * * * *

Does this capture the essence of your house rule, RangerWickett?

With Thanks,
Flynn


----------



## Flynn

*Letting Someone Look Through Your Eyes...*



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Okay, I'd say you'd need to use Divine for remote viewing twice, once to reach the person, then again for them to reach back to you. For instance, assuming you're both familiar with the other, it's 6 levels to reach them (+4 familiar, +2 for same world but not in line of sight), and also 6 to go back, for a total of level 12. They would be able to see you and the area around you, or see through your eyes, or whatever else you wanted.




This approach makes a lot of sense. My first thoughts were to build the spell and count the range twice, once to cast it on a far-off target, and the second to allow them to use the spell on my area, which would have made it a level 8 spell instead of a level 12. Still, I felt something was missing with those original thoughts.

Thanks for the suggestion, 
Flynn


----------



## RangerWickett

Flynn said:
			
		

> MAGE DUELIST [Mage]
> You may spontaneously elect to counterspell an incoming spell that you are aware of.
> Prerequisite: Quicken Spell
> Benefit: As an immediate action, you can elect to give up your next turn to perform a counterspell against an incoming spell. You must not be flat-footed, and you must be aware of the incoming spell. Your initiative does not change; you simply do not take an action on your next turn.
> Notes: An immediate action can be taken at any point, even when it's not your turn.




The actual rule I used was close to that. It made it into EOM-R, and if I were to repost it for use in Mythic Earth, I'd make it thus:

*Reactive Counterspell* [Mage]
You are skilled at misleading foes and countering spells in magical duels.
*Prerequisite:* Spellcraft 8 ranks.
*Benefit:* As long as you are not flat-footed, whenever a creature casts a spell that you are aware of, you can cast a counterspell as an immediate action. A counterspell can be either a magical skill dispel or a Spellcraft dispel. 

If you do this, you act next round as if you have already taken a full-round action, which will normally leave you just unable to take any actions in your next round. If you would not be able to take a full-round action next round (such as if you are staggered, or if you have already used this ability once this turn), you cannot cast a reactive counterspell.

You can also, instead of a counterspell, cast a signature spell that has only Defend enhancements and general enhancements.


----------



## JohnSnow

Okay Ryan, I hope you don't think I'm a heretic for doing this, but your _Elements of Magic - Revised_ attracted quite a bit of attention over on the _Iron Heroes_ boards. As you might have heard, a lot of the people who were otherwise quite enthusiastic about IH weren't overly thrilled with its magic system. So we started coming up with alternatives. Other systems were suggested, and one of our regulars (Sean 'Malachius Invictus' Laney) worked up an IH modification for _Elements of Magic - Revised_. And while I liked it, I thought it was a bit "complicated" for my tastes (not to mention that I hate magic points).

So I started mucking around with adapting other systems - _Black Company, Midnight, Thieves' World,_ Skill-based spellcasting from Sword & Sorcery's _Advanced Player's Guide_, and more. I was compiling information to create a flexible system that would use a spellcasting skill and feats that granted spell access. Then I saw _Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth_. And you've basically gone and done the work for me - thanks!

However, I do have a few questions.

1. 10 "spellcasting skills" seems like a lot. That basically means most casters will only be able to max out a few skills. That's thematically nice in a sense, but prevents really "broad" spellcasters. I'm considering lumping the tradition skills together as a "skill group" (an IH concept), or possibly reducing to one spellcasting skill and making the "skills" spell types that become available if you have the right tradition feat. Any thoughts?

2. _Iron Heroes_ characters get a LOT of feats. Okay, most of them don't get many more than _d20 Modern_ characters, but it's a LOT compared to the D&D classes. Any balance issues with this system from characters getting more feats?

3. Just a whacky question: how would you cover spellcasters who can manipulate weather to produce, oh, a stiff wind, or a snowstorm, or something of that nature? Just curious.

Do you think _Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth_ is a reasonable magic system for something like _Iron Heroes_? Or do you think the magic is too good. I like the casting check, and could easily see implementing either Drain (subdual damage equal to EOM:ME spell level/2) or some other mechanic to reign spellcasters in if necessary.

So do I have your permission to make some modifications to the system to make it work for _Iron Heroes_ and share those rules? (I'd give you full credit for the system of course, and direct interested parties to pick up EoM: ME). What do you think of the whole idea?


----------



## RangerWickett

First, understand that I'm almost completely unfamiliar with Iron Heroes. I haven't even seen a copy of the book. I just know a few things folks have talked about, namely that it's geared much more toward physical combat than to magic. Bear that in mind, since I'm just going to have to guess what's a decent power level for magic in that system.



			
				JohnSnow said:
			
		

> 1. 10 "spellcasting skills" seems like a lot. That basically means most casters will only be able to max out a few skills. That's thematically nice in a sense, but prevents really "broad" spellcasters. I'm considering lumping the tradition skills together as a "skill group" (an IH concept), or possibly reducing to one spellcasting skill and making the "skills" spell types that become available if you have the right tradition feat. Any thoughts?




Do any classes in IH get 8 skill points per level? If so, that class, with a high Intelligence, ought to work as a full-spectrum wizard. Otherwise, . . . well, part of the balance of the rules is that your average character has to sacrifice his other abilities to gain magic. 

Honestly, unless IH has revamped the importance of other skills, the main cost in getting magic is the feat, not the skill points. Most people barely batted an eye at spending a few skill points to gain the ability to levitate objects or grant themselves a stat boost. They were a little more affected by the feat cost, but what I've seen in my own playtest is that most of the players were willing to spend a feat and a few skill points that they weren't going to miss for a single magical ability.

If you started making it _cheaper_ to gain access, people would probably jump at the chance of getting so much versatility so cheaply. Honestly, would you rather spend ranks in Diplomacy, or magical Charm?  Jump, or magical Move?

By the way, it was a design choice that low-level Attack spells suck compared to simple weapons. In D&D it's not _such_ a big deal, but in D20 Modern, the damage threshold rule (if you take more than your Con in damage in one hit, you must save or pass out) make 5d6 attack spells much more dangerous than in D&D. At low-level, though, most characters will be better of carrying a gun than shooting Attack spells. In the playtest game, no one took Attack at low level, and only now that they're edging toward 7th level is the primary caster dumping spare skill points into it so he can actually dish out some damage.



> 2. _Iron Heroes_ characters get a LOT of feats. Okay, most of them don't get many more than _d20 Modern_ characters, but it's a LOT compared to the D&D classes. Any balance issues with this system from characters getting more feats?




Perhaps. Again, I'm not familiar with the power level of IH, but in D&D, giving up a feat is hard if you're planning to be a combat character. In d20 Modern it's a bit easier, since you get so many. If IH gives even more feats, you might want to require a slightly higher cost. Perhaps require a feat to gain access to any magic at all, or perhaps require the 'Arcane Skills' feat as a prereq for tradition feats.

To use a term from Magic: the Gathering parlance, Mythic Earth was 'aggressively costed' for d20 Modern, meaning that I was willing to risk it being a little more powerful than other, non-magical options. I felt this was balanced by the chance of spell failure, and the limited number of times you could easily use magic in a day compared to, say, shooting a gun or using Diplomacy. 

Compared to D&D, the power level's a little lower, since I didn't want the system to overshadow the quite well-entrenched core magic.

For IH . . . I dunno. Do you want magic to overshadow the combat system?



> 3. Just a whacky question: how would you cover spellcasters who can manipulate weather to produce, oh, a stiff wind, or a snowstorm, or something of that nature? Just curious.




Create, probably with the Elemental Focus feat. I'm pretty sure IH doesn't use Purchase DCs, but you could still probably use D20 Modern cost guidelines with Create. How much would a strong wind cost to create? Figure out how much a big fan would be. A snowstorm? Up the DC. Create is one of the hardest ones to handle accurately, and requires a lot of adjudication. Always feel free to eyeball it and say 'This feels like it'd be an Nth level spell.'

Also, you could create a tradition feat specifically for a wind mage, that granted Create as a class skill, but gave him a penalty to creating things that aren't wind-based.



> Do you think _Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth_ is a reasonable magic system for something like _Iron Heroes_? Or do you think the magic is too good. I like the casting check, and could easily see implementing either Drain (subdual damage equal to EOM:ME spell level/2) or some other mechanic to reign spellcasters in if necessary.
> 
> So do I have your permission to make some modifications to the system to make it work for _Iron Heroes_ and share those rules? (I'd give you full credit for the system of course, and direct interested parties to pick up EoM: ME). What do you think of the whole idea?




I'm highly intrigued. Also, as the rules are all Open Content, you can do what you wish with them, with my blessing. I'd need to know more about IH to know how powerful it is, and how best to rachet the power level up or down as needed. But hey, I've heard lots of great things about IH, so the association of Mythic Earth with it pleases me.


----------



## JohnSnow

Ryan, thanks for the quick response. I wanted to get back to you as soon as possible. So, let's get to it:



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I just know a few things folks have talked about, namely that it's geared much more toward physical combat than to magic. Bear that in mind, since I'm just going to have to guess what's a decent power level for magic in that system.




I can help a little. The theory (theory, mind you) is that IH is about combat with magic being a secondary consideration. Essentially, characters in IH are supposed to be equivalently powerful to their D&D counterparts without needing any _magic items_. Basically, the IH classes have special abilities so that they can take on CR-appropriate challenges without owning any magic gear ("It is not the sword, but the arm that wields it...") So magic shouldn't be as capable as it is in the core rules. 

That said, the general consensus of most of us (the fans on the IH boards) is that the magic system in the book doesn't capture the magic flavor we want. I bought into IH so I could ditch magic items (most specifically the "christmas tree effect" so common in D&D) - not make it so that nobody wants to play a spellcaster. And a balance that would work for _d20 Modern_ sounds about right to me. _Iron Heroes_ author Mike Mearls wasn't totally satisfied with the system in the book. He suggested that one option for replacing the Arcanist was to just import the Magister from _Arcana Evolved_, complete with his spells, so I imagine anything about comparable to a core rules caster is fine. That said, the Magister doesn't quite "do it" for me, so I ditched that idea.



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Do any classes in IH get 8 skill points per level? If so, that class, with a high Intelligence, ought to work as a full-spectrum wizard. Otherwise, . . . well, part of the balance of the rules is that your average character has to sacrifice his other abilities to gain magic.




Quick primer: _Iron Heroes_ uses a combination of more skill points all around and skill groups that reduce the cost of acquiring your "core" skills. So for example, for classes with the "Perception" skill group, one rank in Perception buys a rank each in Spot and Listen. There are no cross-class skills any more. The skill groups make it so that characters have an incentive to get their key skills but still have room for some variety. 

The default Arcanist gets 8 skill points, and most arcanists would burn 4 to acquire the Academia, Mysticism, Social and Theatrics skill groups (the only ones they get). One with a 16 Int would have 7 other skills to pick from...Considering that, I guess it's fine, but part of the idea is to have characters who are useful without their magic (and can have some "out of character" skills). Although a dedicated caster could easily forego a skill group or two. I dunno, it's worth thinking about.



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> If you started making it cheaper to gain access, people would probably jump at the chance of getting so much versatility so cheaply. Honestly, would you rather spend ranks in Diplomacy, or magical Charm? Jump, or magical Move?




A reasonable point, and my thought would be to leave them as separate skills for most classes (who probably wouldn't take the feats anyway), but potentially to allow the arcanist to take two of them as a "skill group" effectively cutting the cost in half.



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> By the way, it was a design choice that low-level Attack spells suck compared to simple weapons. In D&D it's not such a big deal, but in D20 Modern, the damage threshold rule (if you take more than your Con in damage in one hit, you must save or pass out) make 5d6 attack spells much more dangerous than in D&D. At low-level, though, most characters will be better of carrying a gun than shooting Attack spells. In the playtest game, no one took Attack at low level, and only now that they're edging toward 7th level is the primary caster dumping spare skill points into it so he can actually dish out some damage.




It's a design choice I like, and one that will keep the focus on the fighting classes in _Iron Heroes_. Spellcasters should be useful as defense, support, and utility, but less likely to make the other classes obsolete. As an aside, I like the notion of wizards carrying firearms for backup - very Harry Dresden.



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Perhaps. Again, I'm not familiar with the power level of IH, but in D&D, giving up a feat is hard if you're planning to be a combat character. In d20 Modern it's a bit easier, since you get so many. If IH gives even more feats, you might want to require a slightly higher cost. Perhaps require a feat to gain access to any magic at all, or perhaps require the 'Arcane Skills' feat as a prereq for tradition feats.




*nod*

IH is about the same power level as D&D. To make up for the lack of items, the classes get more feats (2 at first level, like all humans, plus one every even level.) Several of the classes grant bonus feats, but in only one case (the Man-at-arms) are those not so restricted as to be extremely costly. Very few classes could afford to take more than one or two tradition feats. Combat characters want to spend their feats on combat. A few men-at-arms might opt for a tradition feat, and they've got the skill points to make use of it, but they'd be sacrificing their non-magical flexibility. For Hunters, the sacrifice would make them less Hunter and more "D&D Ranger." So I'd guess the classes most likely to use magic are Arcanists, Men-at-Arms (IH's JoaT class), and maybe Executioners, Hunters & Thieves. Although those classes would become much more "ninja, ranger and bard" if they did that.



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> To use a term from Magic: the Gathering parlance, Mythic Earth was 'aggressively costed' for d20 Modern, meaning that I was willing to risk it being a little more powerful than other, non-magical options. I felt this was balanced by the chance of spell failure, and the limited number of times you could easily use magic in a day compared to, say, shooting a gun or using Diplomacy.
> 
> Compared to D&D, the power level's a little lower, since I didn't want the system to overshadow the quite well-entrenched core magic.
> 
> For IH . . . I dunno. Do you want magic to overshadow the combat system?




No, I don't want the magic to overshadow the combat system. However, I agree with you that I think its greater power is largely balanced by the chance of spell failure and the limited number of times you could easily use magic. I might make it a little more draining by stealing the drain mechanic from Green Ronin's _Thieves' World_ or Sword & Sorcery's _Advanced Player's Guide_ - basically all spells deal subdual damage (either on a marginal failure or all the time). In this system, I'd divide the spell level by 2 and round up...so 1st and 2nd do 1 point, and so on.

That also provides an easy carrot to hand to those rolling a natural 20 - it does no drain. Just one idea.



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I'm highly intrigued. Also, as the rules are all Open Content, you can do what you wish with them, with my blessing. I'd need to know more about IH to know how powerful it is, and how best to rachet the power level up or down as needed. But hey, I've heard lots of great things about IH, so the association of Mythic Earth with it pleases me.




Well, I'm going to go ahead and do the legwork on adapting ME to _Iron Heroes_ for my own campaign. I was about to go to the effort of doing something similar to what you've already done (both for IH and for my _d20 Modern_ games). Personally, I'll freely admit to disliking the Core Rules magic system. However, if I can piggyback on your work so I don't have to start from scratch, I'm all for that. Any chance to pick your brain on rules mods would be appreciated though.

Let's see what I can come up with.


----------



## genshou

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> You could do that, sure. Honestly, I just didn't include it because I don't think charged items are interesting narrativistically or mechanically. I prefer magic items to be either strictly one-use, or something you can use forever. The half-way point of things like wands just irritate the hell out of me. I had forgotten about the die degradation, which is an okay idea, and easier to deal with than tracking charges for all your items, but I still don't see the point.
> 
> How often, in pre-D&D fantasy literature, were there items that had limited charges? Shopping in my mind is not what makes gaming fun. Sure, tricking out your character with the best gear can be cool, but once you have good gear, you ought to be able to keep it.
> 
> So yeah, there were a fair number of core rule things I could have converted for Mythic Earth (and many of them I did convert for EOM-R), but I decided some of them weren't worth keeping. You can accomplish effectively the same sort of things with less book-keeping.
> 
> I mean, hell, you _could_, if you wanted, create an item that gained charges based on how long a character of a given class possessed it, and then expended charges at different rates based on the phase of the moon. That would be much more interesting than simply having 50 charges and ticking them off as you use them.



The thing about die-degradation is that is effectively worth as much as a 50-charge item, but there's no way to know how many total uses it will have when you make it, or how many uses it has left.  It's like keeping a flashlight in the trunk of your car.  If you use it frequently, you risk having the battery run out at a dreadfully inopportune moment, because you usually have no way to check how much power is remaining.

There are plenty of mythological examples of magic given to a character which has a limit to the number of times it can be used.  Probably the most classic example is a genie's lamp.  The difference with die-degradation is that you never know exactly how much more use you're going to get out of it, like a light bulb.


----------



## genshou

Flynn said:
			
		

> Good Afternoon, All,
> 
> I hope that Rangerwickett might see this and take the time to answer, but I also welcome the opinion of others on these boards.
> 
> The magic system detailed Mythic Earth - Elements Of Magic is pretty flexible, but I do have two questions regarding magical effects that I'd like to run by the group here.
> 
> 1. How would I go about representing mage duels? In particular, a mage duel in which both mages continue to throw energy into a "manna bank" or "glowing disk" created by the duel to keep the captured energy from exploding until one fails his check and the disk unloads damage on the mage that failed? Any suggestions would be welcome.



Treat it like magical tennis.  Each round, the casters must take a full-round action to cast an Attack spell strictly for the purpose of the duel (following all normal rules for spellcasting, eg V/S components, Concentration checks if distracted, etc.).  They make a magical skill check to cast the spell as normal.  If the spell is successful, add the levels spent on the spell by both sides to a running total of "pooled" magical energy.  If one competitor or the other fails their spellcasting check (ie, fails to cast the spell), they automatically fail the competition immediately.  If both competitors fail their checks, they both fail and the magical backlash affects them both immediately.  However, if both competitors succeed on their spellcasting checks, they each roll 1d20 and add the number of levels they spent on their Attack spell that round.  In the case of a tie, flip a coin to determine the winner.  Now the winner for each round advances in points as per tennis.  When one competitor or the other is the winner of the "match", or when one or the other fails a spellcasting check, divide the pooled total of contributed levels by 10, and deal that number of d6 as raw magical damage to the loser(s) as the collected energy backlashes at them.

Does that make sense?


----------



## Verequus

I need an example - the last sentences lost me.


----------



## Cheiromancer

If you are in a fantasy setting, how high a level do you have to be to revive a creature who has been dead for almost a year?  I'm looking at the +30 modifier for Revive, Greater, and I'm guessing that means you need 30 ranks of cure.  25 if you overcast.  Or 22nd level if you overcast.  4500 craft points comes out to 90 000 gp.

Is that right?


----------



## RangerWickett

15th, actually. If you're a mage, the Improved Spell Power ability lets you cast spells up to 10 levels above your ranks. I didn't specifically include one, but if you had an Animism-esque tradition feat, you could use that to briefly gain 2 extra ranks in Cure. So at 15th level you could have 18 ranks of Cure, and use Improved Spell Power and animism to let you cast a 30th level spell. 

Of course, since the spellcasting DC is 40, you're going to want some assistance to make it easier. You've got a +20 bonus from your ranks (including animism). As a mage you should have tradition specialization for an extra +1, and if you spent two feats on Elemental Focus and Greater Elemental Focus (life and death), you could get +2. Spend 10 minutes to cast the spell, and you get another +2 bonus.

So we have a shaman who focuses on powers over the interaction of life and death, and when he's 15th level, he has a +25 bonus to his skill check to raise someone from the dead even if they've been gone for as much as a year. He succeeds half the time (since he can fail by 5 and still get the spell off). Heck, if he spends another feat to pick up the fantasy setting's equivalent of Christian Healer, he gets another +2 to his check. Of course, when he finishes the spell he'll take 5d4 points of Strength burn. A Str 8 mage will end up taking an average of 5 points of Con burn too, as he knocks out all his Strength.

As for 'Epic' Revive . . . well, that's supposed to be epic. But you could always try it with a ritual.


----------



## genshou

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> I need an example - the last sentences lost me.



Got it–I'll work out a couple of examples that should illustrate this a little better.


----------



## donm61873

I have a couple of questions: First, what's the fix for the Craft Permanent Spell/Craft Permanent Item feat issue? I haven't seen any errata for it, and while I think it's pretty obvious, I've got a long streak of being wrong on that 

Second, I'm actually more interested in using the ME system with Fantasy d20, and so I'm wondering what the XP values would be for the boons for the Mage class (which raises the question why the Fantasy d20 Mage class has CP...). Same issue with Table 2.5: Magic Item Limits...

I have no experience with the d20 Modern system, but the ME system looks great if I could use it with Fantasy d20. Some of my players who were frightened by EoM are way more comfortable with ME, with one skill to a page, as opposed to the "complexity" of EoM.

Sigh.

OR, will the upcoming fixes make ME equally compatible with Fantasy d20?

Please?


----------



## Verequus

donm61873 said:
			
		

> I have a couple of questions: First, what's the fix for the Craft Permanent Spell/Craft Permanent Item feat issue? I haven't seen any errata for it, and while I think it's pretty obvious, I've got a long streak of being wrong on that




Don't you have the revised version? Looking at it, there is only one feat, Craft Permanent Spell, for both applications. If something is unclear, then it is better to formulate out - so it is unclear for me, if i've covered the whole question.



			
				donm61873 said:
			
		

> Second, I'm actually more interested in using the ME system with Fantasy d20, and so I'm wondering what the XP values would be for the boons for the Mage class (which raises the question why the Fantasy d20 Mage class has CP...). Same issue with Table 2.5: Magic Item Limits...




CP are converted into XP 1:1 - this is cleared in the appendix for the d20 Fantasy conversion.



			
				donm61873 said:
			
		

> I have no experience with the d20 Modern system, but the ME system looks great if I could use it with Fantasy d20. Some of my players who were frightened by EoM are way more comfortable with ME, with one skill to a page, as opposed to the "complexity" of EoM.
> 
> Sigh.
> 
> OR, will the upcoming fixes make ME equally compatible with Fantasy d20?
> 
> Please?




As I mentioned above, there has been attached at the end an appendix. This appendix explains everything and as this part of the PDF has been mentioned on the first text page several times, I'm wondering, how you could miss it. BTW, there is already the revised version available - if the front and back cover pages are integrated into the PDF, then you've got it already. Otherwise redownload the file.


----------



## donm61873

Well, I'm looking at the revised version - I just THOUGHT I saw a discussion above about how Create Permanent Spell should be broken into two feats, and wondered if that was going to be errata. Guess not 

And my Fantasy D20 questions are from looking at the appendix. The Mage class in the appendix uses CP for it's boons, and I was trying to figure that out. And yes, the appendix does say 1:1 for XP, in the Action Points discussion.

Thanks for clearing up my confusion.


----------



## Verequus

donm61873 said:
			
		

> Well, I'm looking at the revised version - I just THOUGHT I saw a discussion above about how Create Permanent Spell should be broken into two feats, and wondered if that was going to be errata. Guess not




There was such a discussion, but I don't remember, why RW did choose not to break them apart.



			
				donm61873 said:
			
		

> And my Fantasy D20 questions are from looking at the appendix. The Mage class in the appendix uses CP for it's boons, and I was trying to figure that out. And yes, the appendix does say 1:1 for XP, in the Action Points discussion.




BTW, why do you need the XP cost for the boons?



			
				donm61873 said:
			
		

> Thanks for clearing up my confusion.




No problem!


----------



## donm61873

Why do I need the XP cost for the boons?

Because (unless I've really missed something), there are no boons given in the pdf.

If boons are a choice for a Fantasy d20 EoM-ME Mage, I need some way to give my players some choices for boons, yes?


----------



## donm61873

On to other Fantasy d20 issues for ME...

Tradition feats.

I'm thinking about having the following traditions: Bardic Apprentice (learned from an old Bard), Collegiate Bard (learned Bardic stuff at a college of bards), Wizard Apprentice (learned from an old Wizard), Sorcerer (figured it out by yourself), and numerous divine traditions for gods, one of which would cover Druids. Instead of one collegiate Wizard feat, eight traditions for Wizards (because my campaign uses that silly Abjuration, Divination, Transmutation system for its' magical politics).

I don't suppose anyone else is working in this direction... ?


----------



## Verequus

donm61873 said:
			
		

> Why do I need the XP cost for the boons?
> 
> Because (unless I've really missed something), there are no boons given in the pdf.
> 
> If boons are a choice for a Fantasy d20 EoM-ME Mage, I need some way to give my players some choices for boons, yes?




I don't have now a copy in front of me, so this is from the the top of my head. IIRC, then you don't need to convert the CP into XP, as the rules for the magic items use already the denotation CP. Furthermore I've got the impression, that everyone can create his personal boons - just create a spell with the wanted effects. So you don't need to create boons, unless you want some examples for your players or you want to restrict the boons to certain ones, but this is against the basic spirit, that everything is possible.


----------



## Verequus

donm61873 said:
			
		

> On to other Fantasy d20 issues for ME...
> 
> Tradition feats.
> 
> I'm thinking about having the following traditions: Bardic Apprentice (learned from an old Bard), Collegiate Bard (learned Bardic stuff at a college of bards), Wizard Apprentice (learned from an old Wizard), Sorcerer (figured it out by yourself), and numerous divine traditions for gods, one of which would cover Druids. Instead of one collegiate Wizard feat, eight traditions for Wizards (because my campaign uses that silly Abjuration, Divination, Transmutation system for its' magical politics).
> 
> I don't suppose anyone else is working in this direction... ?




What is the difference by being tutored by an old bard and by a bardic college? And while I can understand, that you want to split Wizard Apprentice and Sorcerer, what would be the actual difference? The same goes for the divine and the arcane traditions. The latter have also the problem, that the core schools don't map into the EoM-ME skills 1:1. Elements of Magic Revised includes list of a few core spells, which are in different schools, but in the same spell list. Maybe you need to redefine your own setting, if you don't overcome this problem with appropriate and sufficiently different tradition feats.


----------



## donm61873

In my campaign, the various arcane specialty colleges are quite different, so the traditions work for them. The difference between a bard who learned from a mentor and a bard who learned at a university is also obvious in the setting (the mentored bard is a sneaky loner, and the university bard tends to snobbish effeteness...)

And I want Sorcery as a tradition, to represent the "it's all inside me" idea. Think of it as a freeform tradition - you can't learn from anyone, but you the player work with me to decide your benefit.

And as far as boons, I want some examples of what would be available for my players. Sure, the sky's the limit, but some solid examples would be helpful to them 

So, I think I'm going to build some sample boons first, then work on traditions. The other good reason for building sample boons is that I can use them for NPCs. 

The biggest problem with any free-form spell system is putting together the NPCs.


----------



## donm61873

I thought it might be easier to understand what I'm thinking of with tradition feats if I posted some ideas. I'm working with Greyhawk deities so that it's easier to understand what the God should imply.

INITIATE OF BEORY [TRADITION]
Your faith in Beory, Fountain of Life, governs your magical power.
Benefit: All magical skills are class skills to you, but you may not use death, mental or sonic Attack spells, do not gain telepathic or mind reading Charm spells, and may only use obedient Summon spells.
Mishaps: You take damage equal to the spell level, and suffer a -1 penalty on all Spellcasting checks for the remainder of the day.

STUDENT OF BOCCOB [TRADITION]
Your steps walk in the footprints of Boccob the Uncaring, Master of Arcane Knowledge.
Benefit: All magical skills are class skills to you. 
Mishaps: You suffer a cumulative -4 penalty to spellcasting checks for the rest of the day.

SERVANT OF INCABULOS [TRADITION]
Your willing service to Incabulos, master of evil sendings, grants you magical power.
Benefit: You gain the magical skills Attack, Charm, Cure, Defend, and Illusion as class skills. Your Attack spells deal death or mental damage. You gain a +2 bonus on Attack death spellcasting checks.
Mishaps: Choose a non-lethal affliction from the Attack spell of approximately the same level as the spell, such as blindness, fatigue, or some combination of effects. The affliction lasts for the remainder of the day, cannot be healed magically, and allows no saving throw, to teach you respect for your master.

MYSTERY OF ISTUS [TRADITION]
You have learned your magical powers from the service of Istus, Mistress of Fate.
Benefit: You gain the magical skills Charm, Cure, Defend, Divine, and Summon. You also gain Concentration as a class skill.
Mishaps: You lose your sense of where or when you are, perceiving another place or time for a number of rounds equal to the spell's level. During this time, you are considered blind and deaf. This effect can be dispelled, restoring you to normal.

CULTIST OF NERULL [TRADITION]
Your task is to gather souls to Nerull, Lord of the Dark and Prince of Death.
Benefit: You gain the magical skills Attack, Cure, Defend, Divine and Transform as class skills. Your Attack spells deal death damage.
If you have a sharp weapon handy, you can choose to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless sentient creature, gaining a +4 blood bonus to your skill check, if you begin casting your spell immediately after killing the creature. You can choose simply to deal 1d6 points of damage to such a creature instead, gaining only a +1 blood bonus to the magical skill check for that spell.
Mishaps: You take 2 points of Constitution damage, and also take damage equal to the spell's level. If you cast the spell using a blood bonus from a coup de grace, your spell simply fails, and you suffer no damage.

Some beginning ideas for campaign-specific fantasy religious tradition feats. I'd love to know if I'm close to the right track, or way off base...


----------



## donm61873

Ok - this is a rules question...

What's Sleep? Or, better stated, what are Elves immune to? Or do they simply have a +2 bonus resisting Charm spells, and the Sleep thing is ignored?

Or did I miss sleep in the book again?


----------



## RangerWickett

Sleep is basically 'Helpless' from Charm. I imagine if you wanted a long-term, "fall asleep and stay asleep until someone shakes you" spell (as opposed to a "fall down and look like you're sleeping for a few rounds while I _coup_ you" spell), you could maybe raise the level by 1, so that after the duration ends, if they still haven't succeeded a save, they stay asleep until awakened normally.

As for what Elves are immune to, sure, they can keep immunity to sleep, which would apply to spells like the one above that specifically describe themselves as being sleep-based. It would still be a pretty rare event.


----------



## donm61873

Back to ME questions...

I noticed that the Create skill is greatly reduced from what it was in EoMR. The glaring missing items are Weather and Time spells. Was this a deliberate exclusion for design reasons?


----------



## Verequus

I believe, that is only an omission to reduce the rules bloat for beginners. It should be possible to convert the rules from EoM-R to ME. BTW, I've discovered, that without the effect of Create Life there is a big problem. Consider the use of Permanent Spell on created food. Now feed this to a person. If enough of it is ingested, use Dispel Magic on this person. Instant Death...


----------



## donm61873

You can't dispel the food once it's gone - and what's your spell target? Something inside someone, that, because it's been consumed, no longer exists?


----------



## donm61873

I've been tinkering with what needs to be added back from EoMR to ME to run Fantasy d20, and would like some comments. However, it's bigger than a page...

What's the posting rules? I don't want to cause problems or get banned...


----------



## Verequus

donm61873 said:
			
		

> You can't dispel the food once it's gone - and what's your spell target? Something inside someone, that, because it's been consumed, no longer exists?




We are actually talking about the equivalent of atoms in a fantasy world. Whatever the equivalents may be, it became part of your person, once you've ingested the fake food. And you only to target this person to dispel magical effects.


----------



## Verequus

donm61873 said:
			
		

> I've been tinkering with what needs to be added back from EoMR to ME to run Fantasy d20, and would like some comments. However, it's bigger than a page...
> 
> What's the posting rules? I don't want to cause problems or get banned...




I don't know of any posting rules, which limit the post length, and I've posted sometimes very long posts without any repurcussions. So go ahead!


----------



## donm61873

*Don's changes to ME magical skill enhancements*

OK, let's see if this big posting works 

I'm looking for comments, like the levels are off, or that enhancement should be under a different skill.

*ATTACK*
Rename *Enhanced Damage* to *Increased Damage*.
Under *Affliction*, add *Dazzle (+2).* You dazzle affected creatures for the spell's duration.
*Enhanced Attack (+1).* Place this spell on a creature or item. Unarmed and natural attacks made by that creature or weapon attacks made with that item have a +1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls. You may choose this enhancement up to 5 times.
*Enhanced Damage (+1).* Place this spell on a creature or item. Unarmed and natural attacks made by that creature or weapon attacks made with that item have a +1 enhancement bonus to damage rolls. You may choose this enhancement up to 5 times.
*Temporary Hit Points (+1).* Affected creatures gain 3 temporary hit points. You may choose this enhancement multiple times.
*Weapon Enhancement (+3).* Place this spell on a weapon. The caster may choose any +1 bonus weapon special ability in the Core rules. You may choose this enhancement up to 5 times, raising the level of bonus special ability that may be chosen.
_Personal note: this is temporary, until I decide how to build the various weapon enhancements individually._

*CHARM*
*Enhance Charisma (Varies).* Affected creatures gain an enhancement bonus to Charisma. Consult the table below to determine by how much the ability score is enhanced.
Level	Bonus
+3	+2
+5	+4
+7	+6
+10	+8
+13	+10
+16	+12
+20	+14

*CREATE*
*Create Air (varies).* When you create air, you can choose its temperature, between extremes of -40 and 150 degrees farhenheit (-40 and 65 degrees Celsius). Severe heat and cold cannot be used offensively unless you have a way to keep someone from moving out of the area of effect, since it takes at least a few minutes to die of exposure.
*Fresh Air (+4).* You create enough fresh air for each creature in the area of effect to breathe for the spell’s duration. If the spell is cast outdoors, the air will disperse naturally. Alternately, if you target creatures directly (or if you target an object that needs air, like a fire), the spell will provide fresh air for them.
*Moderate Wind (+1).* You create wind of up to 20 miles per hour. See the DMG for information on wind forces. You can direct the wind in whatever direction you desire, with updrafts, downdrafts, whirlwinds, or simply in a straight line.
*Fog Cloud (+1).* Mist obscures vision beyond 5 ft. A creature within 5 ft. has concealment (20% miss chance). Fog and mist can be dispersed by a moderate wind (11+ mph) in 4 rounds, or by a strong wind (21+ mph) in 1 round.
*Strong Wind (+2).* Winds of up to 30 miles per hour.
*Severe Wind (+3).* Winds of up to 50 miles per hour.
*Windstorm (+4).* Winds of up to 70 miles per hour.
*Hurricane (+6).* Winds of up to 150 miles per hour.
*Tornado (+9).* Winds of up to 300 miles per hour.​*Create Light (varies).* Creates an object which casts light in an area. Light effects cancel shadow effects of equal level, and vice versa.
*Illumination (+1).* The created object sheds bright light in a 20-ft. radius (and dim light for another 20 ft.).
*Daylight (+4).* The created object sheds bright light in a 60-ft. radius (and dim light for another 60 ft.).
*Luminesence (+4).* The entire area of effect is filled completely with light, so that no shadows are cast.​*Create Pocket Dimension (+6).* You create a pocket dimension, with an entrance big enough for you to walk through (though you may choose to make it smaller). You create the entrance anywhere within range. If you are inside, you can close or reopen the entrance as a full-round action. 
The area of effect you choose is the size of the pocket dimension. Anything in the area of effect is effectively removed from the rest of the world. The interior of the dimension is bare and ends without any apparent solid walls. Temperature and air within are the same as those without when the dimension is created. If the spell’s duration ends, anything in the area of effect is expelled.
*Create Shadow (varies).* Creates an object which casts shadows and darkness in an area. Shadow effects cancel light effects of equal level, or vice versa.
*Gloom (+1).* The created object radiates shadows in a 20-ft. radius. Creatures with darkvision can see through this area normally, and the darkness is the equivalent to a moonless night.
*Darkness (+2).* The created object radiates shadows in a 20-ft. radius. This magical darkness obstructs the vision of even creatures with darkvision.
*Pure Darkness (+4).* The created object radiates pure darkness in a 60-ft. radius, so dark that nothing can see through it.​*Create Time (varies).* The Quicken Spell feat is a prerequisite for time effects.
*Dilated Time (+4).* All creatures, objects, and spell effects in the area age one round. Their effects still occur, so an ongoing Attack spell deals damage for the round, a fire burns one round worth of fuel, and poison runs its course one round faster. Likewise, a Charm spell will end one round sooner. For spells that grant a save to resist on a round by round basis, use the result of the last-made save to determine effects. Things within the area of effect cannot influence those outside, so if a spellcaster sets off a spell in the area, the effects will be limited to the area of effect. Unwilling creatures in the area of effect receive a Will save to resist.
*Dilated Time, Short (+7).* As above, except 5 rounds elapse instead of 1.
*Dilated Time, Medium (+11).* As above, except 5 minutes elapse instead of 1 round.
*Dilated Time, Long (+16).* As above, except half a day elapses instead of 1 round.
*Create Time Pocket (+16):* The area of effect and everything inside it gain extra time, equal to the spell’s duration. The outside world stands still while the area of effect speeds along. Anything leaving the area of effect loses the effect of this extra time, and returns to the normal flow of time just slightly outside the area.
Spell effects created during this time pocket do not continue after this spell ends, so it is useful for resting and healing, but not for actual offense or defense. Unwilling creatures in the area of effect receive a Will save to resist this spell’s effect. If successful, they are shunted to outside the area of effect.​*Weather (+3).* You can create a type of weather normal to the local terrain and season. The weather takes about ten minutes to develop, and once the spell ends, the weather fades normally. If the spell lasts less than ten minutes, the effects will not be full, and the new weather will fade quickly. For every additional 2 spell levels, you can alter the severity of the weather from normal.
For example, if it starts as a nice spring day, you could cause it to rain for 3 spell levels (as rain is certainly normal to the terrain and season. However, if you desire it to snow, first it would be colder, and then turn to snow, a total of 7 spell levels (two shifts from a nice spring day).
*Giant Area (+5).* You can only pick this enhancement if you are only creating pocket dimensions, winds, or weather. The spell covers an area of effect with a half mile radius. For every additional 1 spell level, increase the radius by an additional half-mile.

*CURE*
*Preserve (+1).* The spell prevents 5 lbs. of food, body organs, plants and similar objects from decaying or rotting for 24 hours. For +5 levels, the duration extends to one week. For an additional +5 levels, the duration increases to one month. Each additional +1 level doubles the weight preserved.

*DEFEND*
*Armor Enhancement (+3).* Place this spell on armor or shields. The caster may choose any +1 bonus armor or shield special ability in the Core rules. You may choose this enhancement up to 5 times, raising the level of bonus special ability that may be chosen.

_Personal note: this is temporary, until I decide how to build the various armor enhancements individually._

*Hedging (+2):* Creatures must succeed a Will save to enter the area of effect or use Charm spells on creatures within the area. It can also attempt to use its Spell Resistance to bypass the barrier. Every minute it can make one attempt at each; if the creature fails, it is stuck outside for at least the next minute. The hedging effect prevents the creature from making melee attacks into the area, but it can still use ranged attacks and non-Compel spells. For an additional 1 level, the hedging effect prevents all of the hedged creature’s attacks, spells, or abilities from entering the area of effect.

*DIVINE*
*Enhance Ability Score (Varies).* Choose Intelligence or Wisdom. Affected creatures gain an enhancement bonus to that ability score. Consult the table below to determine by how much the ability score is enhanced. Unwilling creatures receive a Will save to negate.
Level	Bonus
+3	+2
+5	+4
+7	+6
+10	+8
+13	+10
+16	+12
+20	+14
*Enhanced Skill (+1).* Choose any single skill. Affected creatures gain a +1 enhancement bonus to checks with that skill. You may choose this enhancement multiple times. This bonus does not apply to spellcasting checks using Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft, or magical skills (Attack, etc).
*Special Senses (varies).* Most of the following powers have options to increase the range of various senses. If you combine multiple types of vision, such as darkvision with omnivision, you need only increase the range once for both types, but use the highest level change.
*Low Light Vision (+3).* Affected creatures gain low light vision.
*Darkvision (+5).* Affected creatures gain darkvision 30. Every extra 1 additional level increases the range by another 30 ft.
*Blindsense (+7).* Affected creatures gain blindsense, with a range of 30 ft., effectively letting them see invisible creature. Every extra 2 additional levels increases the range by another 30 ft.
*Blindsight (+6).* Affected creatures gain blindsight, with a range of 30 ft. Every 3 additional levels increases the range by another 30 ft.
*Omnivision (+5).* Affected creatures can see through solid objects, with a range of 30 ft. Darkness still provides concealment, but objects, fog, etc. do not. The creature can choose not to see certain objects, such as if it wants to be able to shield itself from a medusa hiding behind a rock. Every 2 additional levels increases the range by another 30 ft.
*Tremorsense (+6).* Affected creatures gain tremorsense, with a range of 30 ft. Every 3 additional levels increases the range by another 30 ft.​*Translate (+3).* Choose one language you know. Affected creatures gain the ability to speak, read, and write that language. For an additional 2 spell levels, affected creatures gain the ability to speak, read, and write all languages you know.

_The Translate enhancement is a personal change. I've always believed that if you want a scroll that lets you read Pargunese, you need to get it from someone who already does. And old languages no one knows needs a translator or Decipher Script, not a automatic spell._

*HEX*
The Hex magical skill weakens defenses. Unwilling creatures can resist with a Will save.

Hex Enhancements
*Armor Class (+2).* Affected creatures gain a –1 penalty to armor class. This penalty can be improved by –1 for each extra spell level, to a maximum of –5 at 6th level.
*Binding (+5).* Creatures must succeed a Will save to leave the area of effect, either physically or by traveling dimensionally. It can also attempt to use its spell resistance to bypass the barrier. Each minute it may make one attempt at each, and if the creature fails, it is stuck inside for at least another minute. The binding effect prevents the creature from making melee attacks out of the area, but it can still use ranged attacks and spells. A bound creature cannot use any Compel effects on creatures outside the area of effect. If the creature is not entirely inside the area of effect when the spell takes effect, it is not bound. If a creature attacks or otherwise deals damage to the bound creature, it is free to retaliate, but is still bound spatially. If you attack the bound creature, it is freed entirely from the binding. For an additional 2 spell levels, none of the bound creature’s attacks, spells, or abilities can cross the area of effect.
*Damage Reduction (+2).* Affected creatures have their DR reduced. The type of material required to bypass the DR does not change. Each 1 additional level reduces the DR by –1. For 2 additional levels, creatures affected by that reduction also can have their DR penetrated by a weaker effect. Reduce the material one step, from epic, to special material, to magic. The DR can now be bypassed by both the original and the weaker material, so a lycanthrope affected by this could be harmed either by magic or by silver.
*Drain Ability Score (Varies).* Choose an ability score. Affected creatures gain a penalty to that ability score. Consult the table below to determine by how much the ability score is penalized. Unwilling creatures receive a Will save to negate.
Level	Penalty
+3	–2
+5	–4
+7	–6
+10	–8
+13	–10
+16	–12
+20	–14
*Drain Skill (+1).* Choose a single specific skill. Affected creatures gain a –1 penalty to checks with that skill. You may choose this enhancement multiple times.
*Energy Buffer (+1).* Choose an energy type — acid, cold, death, electricity, fire, mental, or sonic. Reduces the level of protection provided by an energy buffer by 5 points of damage of that energy type dealt to each affected creature. This does not effect energy resistance. This enhancement can be chosen any number of times, applying to the same or different energy types.
*Energy Resistance (+2).* Affected creatures have their energy resistance of a chosen energy type — acid, cold, death, electricity, fire, mental, or sonic — reduced by 5 points of damage of that energy type each round. This enhancement can be chosen up to four times for each energy type.
*Saving Throws (+1).* Affected creatures gain a –1 penalty to one saving throw — Fortitude, Reflex, or Will. This enhancement may be chosen up to 5 times. For an additional 1 level, this bonus applies to all three saving throws (so giving –3 to three saves requires 4 levels).
*Spell Resistance (+4).* Affected creatures lose SR 10. Each 1 additional level decreases the SR by 1.
*Weaken Attack (+1).* Place this spell on a creature or item. Unarmed and natural attacks made by that creature or weapon attacks made with that item have a –1 penalty to attack rolls. You may choose this enhancement up to 5 times.
*Weaken Damage (+1).* Place this spell on a creature or item. Unarmed and natural attacks made by that creature or weapon attacks made with that item have a –1 penalty to damage rolls. You may choose this enhancement up to 5 times.

*MOVE*
*Freedom of Movement (+7).* Freedom of movement allows creatures to move and attack normally, even under the effect of magical and mundane factors that usually impede movement. This includes paralysis poison, or paralytic Charm effects, and even Move slow spells. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin. The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally underwater, but not to breathe water.
*Spiderclimb (+4).* Spiderclimb allows an affected creature to cling to solid surfaces with hands and feet, gaining a climb speed equal to her base speed. Furthermore, she need not make Climb checks to traverse a vertical or horizontal surface (even upside down). She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against her. She cannot, however, use the run action while climbing.
*Waterwalk (+3).* Waterwalk allows an affected creature to stride over water, moving as freely across the surface as it could on normal, solid ground.
*Swim (+3).* The Swim effect gives the creature a Swim speed equal to its base speed; it gains a +8 bonus to Swim checks and can take 10 on Swim checks. For an additional 2 spell levels, the affected creature gains the ability to breathe, speak, and otherwise respirate normally in any sort of non-toxic liquid.
*Slow, Speed (+1).* Affected creatures gain a –10 ft. penalty to the movement mode of your choice — land, climb, burrow, swim, or fly. You cannot penalize a movement mode the creature does not have a speed rating for. You may choose this enhancement multiple times.
*Slow, Movement (+7).* Each round, affected creatures can only take one move or standard action.

_Personal Note: To cast the slow spells, you must take the Movement Specialization feat and choose slow as a movement type. I might change that - I haven't made up my mind._

*TRANSFORM*
*Grow Plant (+1).*  Nonmonstrous plants in the area of effect age one day.  You can purchase this enhancement multiple times.  This effect is natural growth, and is not undone when the spell’s duration ends.  Indeed, the spell’s duration doesn’t matter for this effect.
*Size Changes (varies).* With this enhancement, you can change a creature’s size, but not its exterior shape. The cost of this enhancement depends on how much the creature’s size changes. Each size shift costs 2 spell levels. Thus for a Medium creature to become Fine costs 8 spell levels (2 to become Small, 2 for Tiny, 2 for Diminutive, and 2 for Fine). 
Changing a creature’s size modifies its reach and speed and grants the appropriate size bonuses or penalties to attack rolls, AC, and Hide checks, but otherwise does not change a creature’s ability scores or natural armor. Determine the creature’s new face by comparing it to similarly shaped creatures of the same size.
A creature’s Strength score cannot be reduced below 1 this way, and its reach and speed obviously cannot be reduced below 0.
Remember, a human becoming Fine gains a +8 size bonus to attack rolls and AC, and a +16 bonus to Hide checks. For a mage, it is an excellent defence, worth 8 spell levels, and when used against a warrior it is an easy way to render your foes relatively harmless.

Increasing Size
From	To	Reach	Speed
Fine	Diminutive	—	—
Diminutive	Tiny	—	+5
Tiny	Small	—	+10
Small	Medium	—	+10
Medium	Large	+5 ft.	+10
Large	Huge	+5 ft.	+10
Huge	Gargantuan	+10 ft.	–
Gargantuan	Colossal	+15 ft.	–

Reducing Size
From	To	Reach	Speed
Diminutive	Fine	—	—
Tiny	Diminutive	—	–5
Small	Tiny	—	–10
Medium	Small	—	–10
Large	Medium	–5 ft.	–10
Huge	Large	–5 ft.	–10
Gargantuan	Huge	–10 ft.	—
Colossal	Gargantuan	–15 ft.	—


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## Moonsword

*walks in a few days late, picks up the gauntlet*



			
				donm61873 said:
			
		

> *ATTACK*
> *Temporary Hit Points (+1).* Affected creatures gain 3 temporary hit points. You may choose this enhancement multiple times.




This should probably be under Cure.



> *CURE*
> *Preserve (+1).* The spell prevents 5 lbs. of food, body organs, plants and similar objects from decaying or rotting for 24 hours. For +5 levels, the duration extends to one week. For an additional +5 levels, the duration increases to one month. Each additional +1 level doubles the weight preserved.




Personally, I would put this under Transform, but I'm not sure which colleges the core spell(s) this is based on are under.  Also, I view the verb in question as being Preserve which seems to me more a function of Transform but that's a question of personal taste, not general rules.

*DIVINE*
*Enhance Ability Score (Varies).* Choose Intelligence or Wisdom.[/QUOTE]

Maybe you could rename this as Enhance Intelligence or Wisdom for clarity's sake.



> *HEX*
> The Hex magical skill weakens defenses. Unwilling creatures can resist with a Will save.




Nice skill, great way to solve the problem of what to do with things like this.



> *ILLUSION*
> *Illumination (+1).* The created object sheds bright light in a 20-ft. radius (and dim light for another 20 ft.).
> *Daylight (+4).* The created object sheds bright light in a 60-ft. radius (and dim light for another 60 ft.).
> *Luminesence (+4).* The entire area of effect is filled completely with light, so that no shadows are cast.
> *Gloom (+1).* The created object radiates shadows in a 20-ft. radius. Creatures with darkvision can see through this area normally, and the darkness is the equivalent to a moonless night.
> *Darkness (+2).* The created object radiates shadows in a 20-ft. radius. This magical darkness obstructs the vision of even creatures with darkvision.
> *Pure Darkness (+4).* The created object radiates pure darkness in a 60-ft. radius, so dark that nothing can see through it.




Not sure this is the right place to put these but I can't think of any better choice, either.  Anyone else got any ideas?

Overall, this is a very nice set of additions to ME's spellcasting options.

----------

Does anyone have a compilation of the various tradition feats that have been created in this thread?  If not, would anyone be interested in one?  I probably can't make it immediately, since finals are right around the corner, but maybe in a couple of weeks.


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## Thomas5251212

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Nope. That was one of the greatest complaints from EOM-R. Touch attacks were just better than saves in most instances. You can still use Attack to enhance




Glad to see you realized that.  I remember bringing that up on here back when I was looking at using EoM in a campaign, and no one seemed to understand why I thought so.


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## donm61873

Moonsword - thanks for the comments...

I started with Temporary Hit Points being in Attack because they fit with the attack and damage modifiers from EoMR. However, you're right - it fits ME better being in cure.

Preserve, on the other hand, should stay in Cure because Purify Food is already in Cure (apparently, that's an Affliction).

Enhance Ability Score: separated as you suggested...

I'm still stuck on the Illusion effects. I've started leaning towards Create, because I want the light and darkness to actually exist. Any one have any other suggestions?

Bearing these changes in mind, here's what I've done so far:

*SRD Level 0 Spells*

*Acid Splash:* Attack 1/Gen 1 short-range acid spell (1d6).
*Arcane Mark:* Transform 2/Gen 20 touch mark spell, lasts one month.
_{Note that this effect just doesn't work well. Any ideas?_
*Create Water:* Create 1/Gen 1 short-range create water spell.
*Cure Minor Wounds:* Cure 2/Gen 1 short-range cure spell (1d6).
*Dancing Lights:* Create 1/Gen 3 medium-range illumination spell (20-ft, 10 minutes).
*Daze:* Charm 1/Gen 1 short-range daze spell.
*Detect Magic:* Divine 1/Gen 3 concentration reading magical auras (30-ft. radius).
*Detect Poison:* Divine 1/Gen 1 short-range concentration dowse poison (60-ft. radius).
*Disrupt Undead:* Attack 1/Gen 1 short-ranged death spell (1d6).
*Flare:* Attack 2/Gen 1 short-range dazzle spell (1 minute).
*Ghost Sound:* Illusion 1/Gen 1 short-range simple auditory glamer spell.
*Guidance:* Attack 1/Defend 1/Divine 1/Gen 0 touch +1 enhancement bonus to any single attack roll, saving throw, or skill check.
*Inflict Minor Wounds:* Attack 1/Gen 0 touch direct damage spell (1d6).
*Know Direction:* Divine 3/Gen 0 brief remote viewing (world) discerns north.
*Light:* Create 1/Gen 0 brief illumination spell (20-ft, 10 minutes).
*Lullaby:* Charm 1/Gen 4 medium-range concentration daze spell (10-ft. radius).
*Mage Hand:* Move 1/Gen 1 short-range concentration telekinetic movement (5 lb.).
*Mending:* Transform 1/Gen1 short-range brief cosmetic object repair.
*Message:* Illusion 1/Gen 3 medium-range short duration simple auditory phantasm (10 minutes, 150 ft.).
*Open/Close:* Move 3/Gen 1 brief short-range telekinetic movement (25 lbs.).
*Prestidigitation:* Transform 1/Create 1/Gen 3 one-hour cosmetic transform/create object.
*Purify Food and Drink:* Cure 2/Gen 0 purify food (4 lbs.).
*Ray of Frost:* Attack 1/Gen 1 short-range cold spell (1d6).
*Read Magic:* Divine 3/Gen 1 short duration translate spell (10 minutes).
*Resistance:* Defend 1/Gen 1 short duration saving throw (+1 to all saves) spell (10 minutes).
*Summon Instrument:* Create 3/Gen 1 short duration create spell (20 gp or less, 10 minutes)
*Touch of Fatigue:* Attack 1/Gen 1 short duration touch fatigue spell (10 minutes).
*Virtue:* Cure 1/Gen 1 short duration temporary hit points spell (+3 hp, 10 minutes).

I'd like to see comments on this before I progress to the level 1 SRD spells...


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## Moonsword

For the Enhance Ability Score, I really meant for it to be one entry that is effectively two different effects, depending on the choice made, but your way is probably less confusing to less literal-minded people than me.

On the Illusion effects, I second moving them to Create.  They really would belong to an Evoke verb IMO but Create is the closest thing in EoM:ME for this purpose.

New Spells:
Ray of Frost shouldn't be that powerful, but there's not much that can be done there, either.

Detect Magic is a little high in level but that can be dealt with without too much trouble.  Also, maybe detecting magical auras should be reworked anyway since most mages would have to be able to do that for spellcasting in some genres.

Cure/Inflict Minor Wounds: See Ray of Frost.

Arcane Mark: Again, probably needs to be reworked.  I can't remember exactly what it does but I think it's in the Universal college, right?  If so, maybe it and Detect Magic should be reworked into basic abilities of all mages rather than spells.

Summon Instrument: For a direct 0th conversion, that's a little high.  For what it actually does, just fine, IMO, for the balance.  Conjuring something like that shouldn't be that easy.

Overall, it looks good.  Keep in mind that I'm not a 3.5 GM (or 3.5 player, for that matter) so I'm not familiar with whatever changes were made between editions so there may be something I'm missing.  I also haven't worked directly with the core spell system from 3.0 in a while either, since I've been running Arcana Unearthed lately, which has a different spell system.


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## Cheiromancer

Just want to say to donm61873 and Moonsword- don't stop!

I would love to see more SRD spells converted- I would especially like to see epic spells done in EoM:ME style.  But if you start with the cantrips and move up, it might be a while. 

I just don't want you guys to get discouraged by the quietness of the thread- you are doing good work, and it is appreciated!


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## RangerWickett

I'm quite pleased with what I'm seeing. I've just been keeping quiet because I want to encourage you all to create stuff, and I was afraid that me popping in might seem like I was approving or disapproving. I say keep up the work.


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## donm61873

Actually, before I moved up to level 1 spells, I wanted some feedback on what I'd done. The more I'm thinking about light and sound effects, if they are "REAL", ie, not disbelievable, they should be create effects. 

Arcane Mark is just strange. I've never actually seen anyone use that spell, either in play in a campaign, in RPGA events, or in convention events. Have I built it wrong, or is it really that odd?

RangerWickett -- we're hacking at your system, so at some point I'd like to see comments, at least on the things I added, if not the spell builds. The idea I'm following is to add to the mechanics as required to replicate SRD effects, then write a level, then post 

Moonsword -- ideas on how to rework Detect Magic? I'll admit that I actually don't mind the cost; it means a cantrip level Detect Magic is going to be a touch thing instead of a 30' radius, and I kind of like that change.

Now I'll go edit the other two posts...

Ray of Frost/Cure Minor Wounds - we'll have to see how the higher level spells convert to see if these need fixing...

Summon Instrument - I'll admit, I can live with this as is.


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## Cheiromancer

I wouldn't worry about the fact that some spells don't quite fit.  I'd make thinks like Arcane Mark belong to a category of "legacy spells" - they cannot be made spontaneously (except at ridiculous cost), but have to be discovered and learned by rote.

As for illusion, I think that spells like _audible glamer_ allowed a saving throw or the listener would hear only a faint sound.  I think spells that create appearances (sight, sound, smell, taste) should be illusions.

Although I hesitate about illusory light.  Unless it makes the colors of things turn out wrong, and makes small objects invisible or has things visible that aren't really there, or otherwise fails to "really" illuminate an area beyond what a candle would. 

Imagine having a faint picture of a room in which only a few details can be seen and drawing a picture of what the room might look like if brightly lit.  That's what you'd see with illusory light- the picture version.  But you might bump into things if you walked around inside of a room lit by illusory light!

Or you could go with create. 

I like the idea that a cantrip level _detect magic_ would work by touch.  I suppose an alternative would be to make it like _detect poison_ so you could know that something is magical from a distance, but with less detail.


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## genshou

genshou said:
			
		

> Got it–I'll work out a couple of examples that should illustrate this a little better.



I never got around to doing those examples.  If someone gives me the relevant stats for a couple of magic users of about the same character level, I'd be happy to run a mock spellduel and share/explain the results.  The two magic users should be fairly close in level but have some degrees of variance in their abilities.


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## Bayonet_Chris

> CURE
> Preserve (+1). The spell prevents 5 lbs. of food, body organs, plants and similar objects from decaying or rotting for 24 hours. For +5 levels, the duration extends to one week. For an additional +5 levels, the duration increases to one month. Each additional +1 level doubles the weight preserved.




I'd actually put this under Create Time, personally.


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## Night Watchman

> HEX
> The Hex magical skill weakens defenses. Unwilling creatures can resist with a Will save.
> 
> Hex Enhancements
> Armor Class (+2). Affected creatures gain a –1 penalty to armor class. This penalty can be improved by –1 for each extra spell level, to a maximum of –5 at 6th level.
> Binding (+5). Creatures must succeed a Will save to leave the area of effect, either physically or by traveling dimensionally. It can also attempt to use its spell resistance to bypass the barrier. Each minute it may make one attempt at each, and if the creature fails, it is stuck inside for at least another minute. The binding effect prevents the creature from making melee attacks out of the area, but it can still use ranged attacks and spells. A bound creature cannot use any Compel effects on creatures outside the area of effect. If the creature is not entirely inside the area of effect when the spell takes effect, it is not bound. If a creature attacks or otherwise deals damage to the bound creature, it is free to retaliate, but is still bound spatially. If you attack the bound creature, it is freed entirely from the binding. For an additional 2 spell levels, none of the bound creature’s attacks, spells, or abilities can cross the area of effect.
> Damage Reduction (+2). Affected creatures have their DR reduced. The type of material required to bypass the DR does not change. Each 1 additional level reduces the DR by –1. For 2 additional levels, creatures affected by that reduction also can have their DR penetrated by a weaker effect. Reduce the material one step, from epic, to special material, to magic. The DR can now be bypassed by both the original and the weaker material, so a lycanthrope affected by this could be harmed either by magic or by silver.
> Drain Ability Score (Varies). Choose an ability score. Affected creatures gain a penalty to that ability score. Consult the table below to determine by how much the ability score is penalized. Unwilling creatures receive a Will save to negate.
> Level Penalty
> +3 –2
> +5 –4
> +7 –6
> +10 –8
> +13 –10
> +16 –12
> +20 –14
> Drain Skill (+1). Choose a single specific skill. Affected creatures gain a –1 penalty to checks with that skill. You may choose this enhancement multiple times.
> Energy Buffer (+1). Choose an energy type — acid, cold, death, electricity, fire, mental, or sonic. Reduces the level of protection provided by an energy buffer by 5 points of damage of that energy type dealt to each affected creature. This does not effect energy resistance. This enhancement can be chosen any number of times, applying to the same or different energy types.
> Energy Resistance (+2). Affected creatures have their energy resistance of a chosen energy type — acid, cold, death, electricity, fire, mental, or sonic — reduced by 5 points of damage of that energy type each round. This enhancement can be chosen up to four times for each energy type.
> Saving Throws (+1). Affected creatures gain a –1 penalty to one saving throw — Fortitude, Reflex, or Will. This enhancement may be chosen up to 5 times. For an additional 1 level, this bonus applies to all three saving throws (so giving –3 to three saves requires 4 levels).
> Spell Resistance (+4). Affected creatures lose SR 10. Each 1 additional level decreases the SR by 1.
> Weaken Attack (+1). Place this spell on a creature or item. Unarmed and natural attacks made by that creature or weapon attacks made with that item have a –1 penalty to attack rolls. You may choose this enhancement up to 5 times.
> Weaken Damage (+1). Place this spell on a creature or item. Unarmed and natural attacks made by that creature or weapon attacks made with that item have a –1 penalty to damage rolls. You may choose this enhancement up to 5 times.




LOVE IT!!!

Has anyone been had the opportunity to use this in their game?  How did it work out?


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## wizofice

Question.  Does a Transform spell changing the target into a creature of a different size (that is, using the Creature Form enhancement) also require cosmetic changes (such as the +6 for changing to a size larger or smaller)?


----------



## rugiii

*EoM Community?*

Well, I finally found a board that deals with EoM (which I recently bought)...and I see that there's been 1 person in the last couple months who has even posted.

wizofice, I do not know the answer to your question.  I have been looking for some place to ask my own questions...and mine are pretty basic questions.


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## genshou

rugiii said:
			
		

> Well, I finally found a board that deals with EoM (which I recently bought)...and I see that there's been 1 person in the last couple months who has even posted.
> 
> wizofice, I do not know the answer to your question.  I have been looking for some place to ask my own questions...and mine are pretty basic questions.



There hasn't been much discussion going on around here recently, that is true.  But keep in mind that most of us have lives.  Or at least spend too much time gaming to watch these boards like hawks.  Feel free to ask your questions.  I can answer a lot of them.


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## genshou

wizofice said:
			
		

> Question.  Does a Transform spell changing the target into a creature of a different size (that is, using the Creature Form enhancement) also require cosmetic changes (such as the +6 for changing to a size larger or smaller)?



Hiya *wizofice*!  Since there aren't any example spells given for Transform, it's hard to make an official ruling, but given that creature size is already a part of its Challenge Rating, I'm inclined to say that the Cosmetic Changes enhancement is not required in order to change size categories when using the Creature Form enhancement--the size change in Cosmetic Changes is for when you are attempting to adjust your height as part of a disguise, just like the similar spells in D&D.


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## Primitive Screwhead

In EoM Revised I ended up using both... you had to pay for the shape of the critter *and* for the size change...mainly because changing into a Dire Bear was too cheap for the results.

This meant you could Transform into a Medium Bear.. if you wanted to be Large it would cost more.

And as to the community... besides Ranger Wicket being soaked up in the "War of the Burning Sky" project and not having time, there are a handful of us who have been posting since EoM was published here and can give reasonable responses.
- In short, don't run away just because it takes a couple of days for a response


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## genshou

Primitive Screwhead said:
			
		

> In EoM Revised I ended up using both... you had to pay for the shape of the critter *and* for the size change...mainly because changing into a Dire Bear was too cheap for the results.
> 
> This meant you could Transform into a Medium Bear.. if you wanted to be Large it would cost more.



I did the same thing in Revised, but the Cosmetic Changes enhancement is more in line with _alter self_ in its effects, so the size change detail in there about changing a single size category wouldn't be appropriate for the Creature Form enhancement, since that would make it impossible for a human to turn into a cat (or anything larger than an ogre).


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## wizofice

genshou said:
			
		

> Hiya *wizofice*!  Since there aren't any example spells given for Transform, it's hard to make an official ruling, but given that creature size is already a part of its Challenge Rating, I'm inclined to say that the Cosmetic Changes enhancement is not required in order to change size categories when using the Creature Form enhancement--the size change in Cosmetic Changes is for when you are attempting to adjust your height as part of a disguise, just like the similar spells in D&D.




Thanks, Genshou.  That's essentially how the GM ruled it, but I feel cheap getting freebies.  Good to know we're on the right track.

(BTW, we're using it for an Iron Heroes game set in Waterdeep FR).


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## genshou

wizofice said:
			
		

> (BTW, we're using it for an Iron Heroes game set in Waterdeep FR).



Iron Heroes in Forgotten Realms, using Mythic Earth?!

You're as much a traitor as I am!


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## TheAuldGrump

I am chugging away, trying to fit EoM:ME into Spycraft 2.0.

Problems involve the damage save for NPCs and the different armor system. Has anyone else tried to Spycraft this?

One other problem I am having is trying to balance new traditions against the old - one of my settings is an 1880s Steampunkish espionage game, and I would find an integrated system for creating traditions very handy. (I am putting the Order of Golden Dawn and Theosophist Society into the game.)

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* As an aside - I have no idea which PDF shop I bought this from, though I think that it may have been the old E.N. World shop. Have there been any changes made to the system since October 17, 2005?


----------



## RangerWickett

I'm not familiar with Spycraft, however honestly, there was no precision in creating the traditions. I just winged it with all of them, trying to create a tension between options and drawbacks. With the benefit of extra playtesting, I've realized the system starts to get overpowered around 6th level, at least vs. other d20 Modern classes. In D&D it wouldn't be too strong. Not sure about Spycraft.

And I think there was one revision in late October that year. Don't recall.


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## TheAuldGrump

Hmmm, Spycraft's classes are a touch more powerful, on the whole, than D20 Modern's. I have a thread going on at Crafty Games about using EoM:ME in Spycraft, and a bit more in another thread as well. 

Should you ever revisit the system, having a method for creating and balancing traditions would be very nice. It is a very versatile system, and I wish that more people were familiar with it.  I just wish that I knew where I got it so that I could check for updates, and maybe leave a review. (I know for certain that it was not RPGNow or DTRPG....)

The Auld Grump


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## RangerWickett

If it was the EN Gamestore, sadly it's closed, and I think the database is messed up. However you're always welcome to post a review here at EN World, regardless of where you bought it.


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## TheAuldGrump

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> If it was the EN Gamestore, sadly it's closed, and I think the database is messed up. However you're always welcome to post a review here at EN World, regardless of where you bought it.



Yeah, the E.N. Gamestore is my own suspicion, if only by default. The closing of ENGS came as a bit of a surprise, and not only for the customers, I suspect.

My biggest problem, though, has not been balance issues or finding EoM:ME has been updated, but rather trying to convince players to try the rules. They seem leery of trying new things it seems.

The Auld Grump


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## RangerWickett

Buy a POD copy. First, it looks great (I had 5, and I've given 4 away as gifts). Second, it's a lot easier to try something out when you can read it in print.


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## TheAuldGrump

Did so, the fact that the PoD version includes the PDF as a download made it palatable. The PDF _seems_ identical to my original.

Now waiting for the PoD to show up. Though it is worth mentioning that I have printed out both my original and the recent purchase.)

The Auld Grump


----------

