# Wonder Woman Spoilery Review



## Kramodlog (Jun 3, 2017)

Saw it yesterday. It definitely is the better DC superhero movie since _Batman: the Dark Knight_. Mind you that the bar wasn't very high and that means little. But I won't compare it to the MCU, cause that is just mean.

The film is clunky and the pacing a big off, but who ever did the editing saved this movie. You can see this movie could have been longer and have a much worse pacing.  We are left with a film that works very well and then alts a bit, and then picks up the pace, and then alts a bit... But the parts that work are really good. Some of the fights scene are nice.

The power level of WW is off too compared to _BvS_. From the power she gained at the end of the film when it is revealed she is a goddess, makes you wonder if 100 years later, with better mastery and practice, she could have kicked Doomsday's butt easily. Hopefully, they just didn't know what sort of power level they wanted to give her. Unfortunately, I think she'll just be less powerful in Justice League films cause she'd be too powerful for the group. If it is the case it is gonna be annoying. 

The plot had some real good moments (she realize killing the baddy doesn't make humans better morally), some plot holes (one night of sailing and your in London?), and some serious WTF moments (getting into German high command is just very easy). Again this makes for an uneven movie. 

Maybe with a less naive WW and no need for a origin story, future WW films will be better, but this is definitely a good direction for the DCEU.


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## cmad1977 (Jun 3, 2017)

Vastly superior to most superhero movies in my opinion. 


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## Ed Laprade (Jun 3, 2017)

A warning. If you know anything about WWI, and care, prepare to grind your teeth a lot. Fortunately, I knew better than to expect any kind of accuracy (their Ludendorf looks nothing like him), so ignoring it allowed me to see it as a good movie. So, no real complaints, and nice job done by all.


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## Ryujin (Jun 3, 2017)

This was a HUGE step up for the DCCU. The Grim-dark was largely gone. The air of Hope is back in. Yeah, there are holes. Yes, there are historical inaccuracies. I don't really care. We're talking alternate universe here, so blind adherence to history would be rather meaningless in the long run. I don't even care that they went with WWI instead of WWII, as the original comics did. They made it work.

All in all I would say that if DC sticks with this model and continues to improve upon it, they'll finally find the formula that works for them.


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## Kramodlog (Jun 3, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> We're talking alternate universe here.



Wonder Woman never existed!?


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## Ryujin (Jun 3, 2017)

Kramodlog said:


> Wonder Woman never existed!?




If she did, she needs a new publicist.


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## Kramodlog (Jun 3, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> If she did, she needs a new publicist.




I blame sexism.


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## ccs (Jun 3, 2017)

Saw it last night.  It was pretty good.  Certainly DCs best big screen effort in a long time.



Kramodlog said:


> The power level of WW is off too compared to _BvS_. From the power she gained at the end of the film when it is revealed she is a goddess, makes you wonder if 100 years later, with better mastery and practice, she could have kicked Doomsday's butt easily. Hopefully, they just didn't know what sort of power level they wanted to give her. Unfortunately, I think she'll just be less powerful in Justice League films cause she'd be too powerful for the group. If it is the case it is gonna be annoying.




I'm not too worried about this.  There's 100 years in between this story & BvS.  Anything could've happened in that time to syphon off some of that power.  Might make a good future movie.  Heck, maybe going nova at the end to beat Ares did it....  Or maybe in BvS she's just rusty.  Batman was afterall, so why not WW? 



Kramodlog said:


> The plot had some real good moments (she realize killing the baddy doesn't make humans better morally), *some plot holes (one night of sailing and your in London?), and some serious WTF moments (getting into German high command is just very easy).*




I think you've got those reversed....
BUT!

1) MAGIC.  We're never told _where_ movie Thymescera/Paradise Island is.  Maybe it IS just one days sail away from London.  Or maybe you sail away from it & you're magically 1 day away from wherever you want to be?  We are afterall watching a movie concerning Greek gods, magic, & a super-hero made from clay.

2) Action Movie.  It's ALWAYS been easy for the heroes to find, infiltrate, (& usually escape!) enemy bases.  Doesn't matter if your WW + friends, Indiana Jones, SW characters, Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, 007, or anyone else.  If you're the good guy....
That's not a WTF moment, that's how this works.


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## ccs (Jun 3, 2017)

Kramodlog said:


> Wonder Woman never existed!?




No, no no.   The difference is Ludendorf's appearance.  In our universe he looked like this: https://www.bing.com/images/search?...07371BAB516FAED037FBCCBABD6FE88E0&FORM=IARRTH   In an alternate universe he looks just like John Houstan.


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## Kramodlog (Jun 4, 2017)

ccs said:


> I'm not too worried about this.  There's 100 years in between this story & BvS.  Anything could've happened in that time to syphon off some of that power.  Might make a good future movie.  Heck, maybe going nova at the end to beat Ares did it....  Or maybe in BvS she's just rusty.  Batman was afterall, so why not WW?



They say they want to make WW movie that happen after Justice League. We won't see the depowering. But honestly, I just think we'll levels of power that fluctuate depending on the need of the writers. Lame. 



> 1) MAGIC.  We're never told _where_ movie Thymescera/Paradise Island is.  Maybe it IS just one days sail away from London.  Or maybe you sail away from it & you're magically 1 day away from wherever you want to be?  We are afterall watching a movie concerning Greek gods, magic, & a super-hero made from clay.



Steve would have been surprised in that case. It all seemed pretty normal to him. The climate difference between England and Thymescera doesn't point toward them being close. Thing is, there problably were more scenes shot on the boat, but they were cut cause the film and first act were already too long.  



> 2) Action Movie.  It's ALWAYS been easy for the heroes to find, infiltrate, (& usually escape!) enemy bases.  Doesn't matter if your WW + friends, Indiana Jones, SW characters, Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, 007, or anyone else.  If you're the good guy....
> That's not a WTF moment, that's how this works.



The level of threat is usually higher and the movie is usually based around that infiltration, so there is a lot of tension around it. They wanted to cram so much into this film, they had to make it way too easy for them to slip in. Lame.


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## Hand of Evil (Jun 5, 2017)

It was okay but not great and the crazy praise for it, is a bit much.  Found it just above the level of Suicide Squad or Dawn of Justice, which is about all DC movies.


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## Ryujin (Jun 5, 2017)

Hand of Evil said:


> It was okay but not great and the crazy praise for it, is a bit much.  Found it just above the level of Suicide Squad or Dawn of Justice, which is about all DC movies.




It's tepid, dirty water after a walk in the desert.


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## horacethegrey (Jun 5, 2017)

I thought this was the best superhero movie I've seen in years. I admit to being a big MCU fan and liking most of the movies in their lineup. But honestly, _Wonder Woman_ just blew them out of the water by how good it was. For comparison's sake, _Thor _and _Captain America: The First Avenger_ are the MCU movies that share similarities with this. I love Thor man, but I thought WW handled the mythological aspects and fish out of the water comedy much better. And Steve Trevor (a winning Chris Pine) is a much better human love interest than Jane Foster by miles. As for _Captain America_, I was always disappointed at how that movie shied away from depicting the Nazis and used Hydra as a proxy. At least here, Diana is in the actual trenches of World War 1 and seeing the true horrors of modern warfare (well, for the time period at least). 

And yes, it's the best film in the DCEU, though that's not saying much (I HATED _Man of Steel_ and _Dawn of Justice_). But this movie gives me hope that DC Warner's Cinematic Universe is not a lost cause. Big props to director Patty Jenkins and of course to Gal Gadot for making such a fantastic film.


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## tomBitonti (Jun 5, 2017)

I give a plus for the leads being well cast and working well together, and for being interesting characters.

The ending was too much the same as BvS.  The Aries thead was poorly done.  They could have left him out and had a great story.

The theft of the notebook made no sense.  Who does live tests of experimental weapons in the middle of a busy base?  With no security?  With key documents left out for any passers by to steal?

Thx!
TomB


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## Tonguez (Jun 7, 2017)

horacethegrey said:


> I thought this was the best superhero movie I've seen in years. I admit to being a big MCU fan and liking most of the movies in their lineup. But honestly, _Wonder Woman_ just blew them out of the water by how good it was. For comparison's sake, _Thor _and _Captain America: The First Avenger_ are the MCU movies that share similarities with this. I love Thor man, but I thought WW handled the mythological aspects and fish out of the water comedy much better. And Steve Trevor (a winning Chris Pine) is a much better human love interest than Jane Foster by miles.




Thor was a terrible movie all round

Anyway just seen Wonder Woman and got to agree that it is a very very good movie of the genre. I'd say its on par with Logan and Winter Soldier, although I'd still rate Logan as the best Superhero movie so far.

I really liked the interaction between Diana and Steve, the comedy of her not understanding the 'modern mindset' and her naivety  about the 'reality of the situation' carried the story elements well especially when contrasted with the horrors of the trenches and the flashiness of her fight choreography.  

The German BBEGs 'Villainy' was appreciated for its comic book shtickiness although it did somewhat telegraph the twist but that was redeemed by Ares soliloquy  giving his motivation some novelty.

I liked it and will see it again..


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## UselessTriviaMan (Jun 7, 2017)

ccs said:


> No, no no.   The difference is Ludendorf's appearance.  In our universe he looked like this: https://www.bing.com/images/search?...07371BAB516FAED037FBCCBABD6FE88E0&FORM=IARRTH   In an alternate universe he looks just like John Houstan.



Actually he looks more like Danny Huston. 

We watched it last night and loved it. We didn't think it quite beat out Dark Knight for best DC movie ever (though it was close!), but it's definitely better than any of the other DCU stuff.

My son is now excited about Justice League.


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## Morrus (Jun 7, 2017)

Kramodlog said:


> S
> 
> The plot had some real good moments (she realize killing the baddy doesn't make humans better morally), some plot holes (one night of sailing and your in London?)




Why, where is this fictional island? Is it nearer to Gotham? Or Metropolis? Or Star City? Central City? National City? Grodd's Gorilla City?


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## cmad1977 (Jun 7, 2017)

Tonguez said:


> Thor was a terrible movie all round
> 
> Anyway just seen Wonder Woman and got to agree that it is a very very good movie of the genre. I'd say its on par with Logan and Winter Soldier, although I'd still rate Logan as the best Superhero movie so far.
> 
> ...




Despite Logan having mutants(and being great) I'm not sure i would classify it as a 'superhero' movie. It's themes and content push it beyond that for me. 

WW is absolutely one of the best superhero movies for me. 


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## Ryujin (Jun 7, 2017)

Morrus said:


> Why, where is this fictional island? Is it nearer to Gotham? Or Metropolis? Or Star City? Central City? National City? Grodd's Gorilla City?




My vote goes to "beyond the Pillars of Hercules", which is a bit of a moving target.


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## Morrus (Jun 7, 2017)

Just got back. Loved it. That film had heart, and Gadot has some serious charisma. It was funny where it needed to be and poignant where it needed to be without feeling too preachy. The action was superb - although i I had one criticism about the final battle its that I don't like the glowy special effects package that WB seems to have bought a job lot of.


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## Kramodlog (Jun 7, 2017)

Morrus said:


> Why, where is this fictional island? Is it nearer to Gotham? Or Metropolis? Or Star City? Central City? National City? Grodd's Gorilla City?



It is near Turkey. Remember Turkey? Turkey is where Chris Pine stole Dr. Poison's notebook and stole a plane. The same plane he was in when he crashed near the island. Now, I'm not too familiar with WWI planes, but I'm pretty sure the plane he stole didn't have enough fuel to fly from Turkey to just-one-day-away-from-London-by-boat. It also needs to be waters controlled by the Germans because a German boat followed Pine to the island. 

Close to Turkey, island, waters where Germans go freely, Ares, Zeus, Amazons... The island near Greece. 

But this is over thinking it. The writers didn't put that much thought into this.


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## Ryujin (Jun 7, 2017)

Morrus said:


> Just got back. Loved it. That film had heart, and Gadot has some serious charisma. It was funny where it needed to be and poignant where it needed to be without feeling too preachy. The action was superb - although i I had one criticism about the final battle its that I don't like the glowy special effects package that WB seems to have bought a job lot of.




The over-over the top nature of the final battle would be one of my very few criticisms of the movie, but it didn't detract from my enjoyment of the whole.


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## cmad1977 (Jun 7, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> The over-over the top nature of the final battle would be one of my very few criticisms of the movie, but it didn't detract from my enjoyment of the whole.




This is basically my biggest issue with all superhero movies. 


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## Ryujin (Jun 8, 2017)

cmad1977 said:


> This is basically my biggest issue with all superhero movies.




Over the top is the very nature of comics. OVER-over the top leads to loss of suspension of disbelief and viewer fatigue (cf. the Transformers movies).


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## cmad1977 (Jun 8, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> Over the top is the very nature of comics. OVER-over the top leads to loss of suspension of disbelief and viewer fatigue (cf. the Transformers movies).




I see. I agree. I missed an over. Instead of over-over the top I thought the ending was as over the top as say Avengers to me. Which is to say I thought it was over the top but not quite over-over the top. 


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## Morrus (Jun 8, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> The over-over the top nature of the final battle would be one of my very few criticisms of the movie, but it didn't detract from my enjoyment of the whole.




There are two.

Marvel repeats the massed attack from the sky with endless weak foes dispatched by a group of plucky defenders. See_ Iron Man, Avengers, Iron Man 3, Guardians of the Galaxy, Age of Ultron_.

DC does the single big foe with lots of lightning and glowy stuff and super-epic poses. See_ Batman vs. Superman's_ Doomsday, _Wonder Woman's_ Ares.

Neither work. These movies need to find a different way to end films. Neither is good at third acts.


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## Ryujin (Jun 8, 2017)

Morrus said:


> There are two.
> 
> Marvel repeats the massed attack from the sky with endless weak foes dispatched by a group of plucky defenders. See_ Iron Man, Avengers, Iron Man 3, Guardians of the Galaxy, Age of Ultron_.
> 
> ...




I think that GotG1 did it pretty well despite using both the swarm of bees and BBEG with lightning memes. It's not the spice used, but knowing not to dump an entire bottle on a single dish.


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## Tonguez (Jun 8, 2017)

Morrus said:


> There are two.
> 
> Marvel repeats the massed attack from the sky with endless weak foes dispatched by a group of plucky defenders. See_ Iron Man, Avengers, Iron Man 3, Guardians of the Galaxy, Age of Ultron_.
> 
> ...




I agree re Wonder Woman and BvS - indeed the only comment I made on the WW finale was gee at least they didn't bring back Dumdsday.

I also think that Marvels approach has a lot more story telling potential and this was most notable in Avengers where the Battle of New York was used to give each of the Avengers a character moment - Cap taking tactical command, Tony leading the Leviathan in so others could attack and then his 'sacrifice' to close the portal,  the Hulk smashing the Leviathan (I'm always angry), then his team up with Thor and then his Puny god moment and then catching Tony, even Hawkeye got time to shine in that set up. Avengers uses its Boss battles to extends its characters not just as a flashy shock and awe finale.


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## Tonguez (Jun 8, 2017)

Morrus said:


> There are two.
> 
> Marvel repeats the massed attack from the sky with endless weak foes dispatched by a group of plucky defenders. See_ Iron Man, Avengers, Iron Man 3, Guardians of the Galaxy, Age of Ultron_.
> 
> ...




I agree re Wonder Woman and BvS - indeed the only comment I made on the WW finale was gee at least they didn't bring back Dumdsday.

I also think that Marvels approach has a lot more story telling potential and this was most notable in Avengers where the Battle of New York was used to give each of the Avengers a character moment - Cap taking tactical command, Tony leading the Leviathan in so others could attack and then his 'sacrifice' to close the portal,  the Hulk smashing the Leviathan (I'm always angry), then his team up with Thor and then his Puny god moment and then catching Tony, even Hawkeye got time to shine in that set up. Avengers uses its Boss battles to extends its characters not just as a flashy shock and awe finale.


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## Jester David (Jun 12, 2017)

The ending was weak. But that's common in superhero films. 
The problem is the CGI takes so long to make that certain key fights are planned and work starts on them prior to filming (or often even scripting)
Like the Iron Man/ Thor/ Cap fight in Avengers 1. And likely the Hulkbuster fight in Avengers 2. The Ares fight her was very likely planned and scripted before the directed had even fully signed on board. 

A good director will give you context and meaning for the fight. They'll make you care. Others... less so. 
This fairly worked. It wasn't egregious. And it was thematically solid, which is more than I can say for most other superhero films...

Traditionally, Thermyscera is in the Bermuda Triangle, which is where it looks to be when it starts zooming in on the globe. 
Obviously too far to sail to London in a few nights. Let alone fly a WWI plane there. 
Although, it's only implied they have it in a single night. Because a long travel montage is needless.


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## Hand of Evil (Jun 13, 2017)

The boat travel could have been explained with lines: 
Steve: I don't understand it, we should have been travelling for days.
Wonder Woman: The boats of Thermyscera are blessed by the god Poseidon to travel safe and fast, going to the place desired quickly.  
Steve: Questioning look...

Also, again big battle in poor light and darkness.


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## Morrus (Jun 13, 2017)

According to Wikipedia:

- originally "somewhere in the Pacific"
- WW TV show is Bermuda Triangle in the Atlantic, called Paradise Island
- 2009 animated movie Aegean Sea (off the Med, between Turkey and Greece)
- Bermuda Triangle again in post-crisis comic books
- currently has the magical ability to teleport to any location or time period (!)


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## ccs (Jun 13, 2017)

tomBitonti said:


> The theft of the notebook made no sense.  Who does live tests of experimental weapons in the middle of a busy base?  With no security?  With key documents left out for any passers by to steal?




Insane comic book/movie bad guys do this stuff.  Geesh, it's like some of you are completely ignorant of the genre


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## Kramodlog (Jun 16, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Traditionally, Thermyscera is in the Bermuda Triangle, which is where it looks to be when it starts zooming in on the globe.
> Obviously too far to sail to London in a few nights. Let alone fly a WWI plane there.
> Although, it's only implied they have it in a single night. Because a long travel montage is needless.



Steve starts in Turkey and ends in the Bermuda Triangle when he could have gone to London with his magical plane?


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## Rabulias (Jun 16, 2017)

I too was initially bothered by Diana's power level at the end being far beyond what we saw in _Dawn of Justice_. But recall the scene where she seems to play with the electrical energy coursing around her arms. Ares threw this energy at her, and she seemed to absorb it (like Yoda and Force lightning). I rationalize this as an aspect of her being the godkiller. She can absorb energy attacks from other gods and redirect it back. So she can have godlike power when facing gods. When facing non-gods (like Doomsday), she's at the level we see in _Dawn of Justice_. That's my theory, FWITW.


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## Morrus (Jun 16, 2017)

I don't think I noticed a power difference between the two films. She seems basically Superman level power in both by the end of WW. 


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## Argyle King (Jun 21, 2017)

I thought the movie was alright.  Over-hyped, but still enjoyable and one of the better DC movies

My main complaints were that the end fight scene seemed pretty lame*, and that the male lead often came across as a discount version of Captain America**.  

*I expected more from the God of War.
**Does having a team of commandos and sacrificing yourself in an airplane at the end of a World War ring a bell?


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 21, 2017)

I don't think it can quite make up for the time travelled, but the boat did actually not sail all the way to London - they found a tug boat or fisher boat with engines that dragged them into London. 



cmad1977 said:


> This is basically my biggest issue with all superhero movies.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I think the problem with them is that a lot of action happens, but no real story or character development. And if they happen, they go under in all the SFX (and the unbelievability of people discussing the finder points of their ethics while they shoot lightning bolts and rockets at each other.) And there is that usual formulaic element of the hero going down, being severely weakened, and almost beat, and then finding the strength within to rise up. It's kinda neccessary to have that, but it's too predictable nowadays.


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## MechaPilot (Jun 27, 2017)

cmad1977 said:


> Vastly superior to most superhero movies in my opinion.




I agree.

My top list of superhero movies is:

1) Iron Man #1.
2) Deadpool
3) Guardians of the Galaxy #1 / Wonder Woman

The first Iron Man was a darn near perfect superhero movie.

Deadpool was a LOT of fun.  However, I'm not entirely certain about him being a superhero.  He's basically just a sarcastic, smart-mouthed, thug-for-hire who gets screwed over, gets superpowers, and then goes on a revenge spree, the end of which happens to coincide with rescuing the woman he loves.

Guardians was more fun than Wonder Woman, but a lot of that comes down to nostalgic music choice.  Putting that aside, along with my having low expectations when going into GotG, I have to say the movies are tied.  Story-wise, the two films are either of equal quality, or with WW a little in the lead.


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