# New Monster Swordwing!



## jaldaen (May 2, 2008)

The Swordwing has arrived!


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## Kunimatyu (May 2, 2008)

Again with the marking, on a monster that (aside from being a Soldier) really doesn't need it.

These guys just don't strike me as cool enough that I'd want minis of them.

EDIT: I do really like how concise the abilities and statblocks are. With the exception of the &#%$! marking, these guys are easy to run.


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## Benimoto (May 2, 2008)

I sure wasn't expecting the swordwings.  Are they an entirely new monster?  I'm not really impressed at first glance, but maybe they'll grow on me.

What do you suppose the duration is on Mark of Death.  It seems like it should last the whole encounter, but it's not listed.

I hope the Encounter Groups section is a hint that there will be epic versions of the Beholder and Mind Flayers.


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## That One Guy (May 2, 2008)

Ehh... it's kinda' cool. It's a somewhat sticky-anti-shift enemy. They could make pretty sweet enemies in swarms.

This popped up again...
(crit 2d6 + 21)

Which is basically normal damage + normal crit damage. Any idea if PCs will be able to do something in league with this? I'm guessing (if it is PC getable) it'll be a feat. Maybe feats that allow it with certain weapons? Lend me your thoughts!


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## Fallen Seraph (May 2, 2008)

I think they can be quite interesting, sweeping in and harassing the PCs. Enabling extra damage as they harass the PCs for the next wave of Swordwings to come in and do more damage.

This is a creature which the DM should play with lots of strategy.

Also, Aberration/Far Realm language: Deep Speech


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## Shroomy (May 2, 2008)

I thought that Deep Speech was the new Undercommon.


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## Rex Blunder (May 2, 2008)

OMG 4e is Pokemon! 












(please let Hitmonchan be in the MM)


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## Fallen Seraph (May 2, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> I thought that Deep Speech was the new Undercommon.



*Shrugs shoulders* I am assuming Far Realm since they are aberrants.


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## Ipissimus (May 2, 2008)

Ugh, yeah. If it was just the Crownwing, I could dig it. I mean, that 4 Swordwing 1 Crownwing encounter would be tough if they ganged up on the party Defender to eliminate him before dispersing to take on the rest with the Crownwing's marking ability but the rest of them marking too? I know I'm not going to remember who's marked who after a few rounds of that fight.


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## Kobold Avenger (May 2, 2008)

I'm not impressed with swordwings story-wise, there's nothing particularly interesting with these monsters fluff-wise.

While I don't expect every monster to have a big story associated with it, because even at epic level there needs to be some mere goon monsters.  It's swordwings that sure look like one of those monster to me.  Nothing impressive about them, or an interesting or evocative place in the world with that entry.


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## Shroomy (May 2, 2008)

So its confirmed that "marked" is a standard condition?  I'm assuming it works like the fighter's version of the mark.  Would I be correct?


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## HeinorNY (May 2, 2008)

Hmmm an alien insectoid race of monsters... invanding the world from the Far Realm, creating nest all over the world, probably servants of a Far Realm Outer god... hmm lots of ideas juts popped in my mind.


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## A'koss (May 2, 2008)

I quite like the design of the swordwing, has it appeared anywhere before? Looking at their statblock, _heh_, they don't get much easier to run. 

I did find it odd though that the crownwing, though a full size larger than the swordwing, is barely any tougher than his "lesser" brethren. It's AC is even 2 lower than the swordwing and it's Fort Def is a full 4 points less. Obviously this must be due to the differences between a "skirmisher" and a "soldier". I'm surprised they didn't make the crownwing clearly tougher to diffentiate them more.


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## Fallen Seraph (May 2, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> So its confirmed that "marked" is a standard condition?  I'm assuming it works like the fighter's version of the mark.  Would I be correct?



Assuming so, unless it states otherwise:

Melee Armblade (standard; at-will)
Reach 2; +30 vs. AC (+32 against a bloodied target); 2d6 + 9 damage (crit 2d6 + 21), and the *target is marked until the end of the swordwing’s next turn*; see also vicious opportunist.


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## Mr.Black (May 2, 2008)

Rex Blunder said:
			
		

> OMG 4e is Pokemon!
> 
> 
> 
> ...





The scyther looks cooler.    It's like some sort of ninja mantis.


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## TwinBahamut (May 2, 2008)

I like these guys. They are a nice bug monster with a solid central gimmick and cool art. I don't see what else they would need. They are better than 50% of the 3E Monster Manual, in my opinion.


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## Shroomy (May 2, 2008)

I've read and re-read the monster excerpt and I like them.  My ideas for using them is based on their main personality trait of collecting.  I can actually see a lot of extremely dangerous bartering, negotiating, raiding, etc. for a specific item in the swordwing's collection.


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## Fallen Seraph (May 2, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> I've read and re-read the monster excerpt and I like them.  My ideas for using them is based on their main personality trait of collecting.  I can actually see a lot of extremely dangerous bartering, negotiating, raiding, etc. for a specific item in the swordwing's collection.



That just reminds me of this:






Bartering with someone who isn't the nicest of person and who can hover on wings.


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## Shroomy (May 2, 2008)

Fallen Seraph said:
			
		

> That just reminds me of this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah, but I would be scared of the swordwing instead of being vaguely offended!


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## Boarstorm (May 2, 2008)

> Swordwing Tactics
> The creature is incensed by the blood of its enemies and attacks bloodied foes with greater accuracy.




Is there ANYTHING in the stat block to support this?


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## Shroomy (May 2, 2008)

Boarstorm said:
			
		

> Is there ANYTHING in the stat block to support this?




It gains a bonus to its armblade attack when its target is bloodied.


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## Boarstorm (May 2, 2008)

I looked right at that like 4 times without seeing it.  Lovely.  Thanks for pointing that out.


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## Fallen Seraph (May 2, 2008)

One thing I am liking more and more each time I see stat-blocks are the little symbols.


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## dystmesis (May 2, 2008)

Why is this thing level 25? It's just a dude with wings and swords for arms that likes collecting stuff. How is that an Epic threat?


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## Boarstorm (May 2, 2008)

dystmesis said:
			
		

> Why is this thing level 25? It's just a dude with wings and swords for arms that likes collecting stuff. How is that an Epic threat?




It's an epic threat because they're level 25? 

Ok, smart-a&$ery aside, I tend to agree with you.  I'dve pegged these guys at about level 13, personally.  Still, if you only put truly "epic" enemies in that tier, I bet you end up with a pretty empty tier.


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## mach1.9pants (May 2, 2008)

For Reaper Steve and others.....

Swordwings are supreme collectors, gathering rare items and arranging them in galleries within their cavernous lairs. A swordwing’s collection defines it as an individual. A typical swordwing favors one particular collectable, while crownwings keep multiple collections. Typical “collectables” include skulls, weapons, gems, magic items, books, monster eggs, and victims’ hearts.

*Swordwing*
    Level 25 Soldier
    Medium aberrant humanoid
    XP 7,000
    Initiative +21 Senses Perception +18; low-light vision
    HP 234; Bloodied 117
    AC 42; Fortitude 40, Reflex 38, Will 32
    Speed 6, fly 10 (hover)
  Armblade (standard; at-will)
    Reach 2; +30 vs. AC (+32 against a bloodied target); 2d6 + 9 damage (crit 2d6 + 21), and the target is marked until the end of the swordwing’s next turn; see also vicious opportunist.
 Sudden Strike (immediate reaction, when an adjacent enemy shifts; at-will)
    The swordwing makes a melee basic attack against the enemy. The attack deals an extra 2d6 damage if it hits.
    Vicious Opportunist
    The swordwing’s opportunity attacks deal an extra 2d6 damage.
    Alignment Evil
    Languages Deep Speech
    Skills Endurance +25, Stealth +24
    Str 28 (+21)
    Dex 24 (+19)
    Wis 13 (+13)
    Con 26 (+20)
    Int 10 (+12)
    Cha 10 (+12)

Swordwing Tactics
A swordwing swoops into battle and hacks enemies to pieces with its armblade, using its sudden strike power against those that try to shift away. The creature is incensed by the blood of its enemies and attacks bloodied foes with greater accuracy.

*Crownwing*
    Level 26 Skirmisher (Leader)
    Large aberrant humanoid
    XP 9,000
    Initiative +24 Senses Perception +20; low-light vision
    HP 238; Bloodied 119
    AC 40; Fortitude 36, Reflex 38, Will 32
    Speed 6, fly 10 (hover); see also flyby attack
 Armblade (standard; at-will)
    Reach 2; +31 vs. AC; 2d6 + 10 damage (crit 2d6 + 22) plus an extra 2d6 damage if the crownwing is flanking the target.
 Flyby Attack (standard; at-will)
    The crownwing flies up to 10 squares and makes one melee basic attack at any point during that movement. The crownwing doesn’t provoke opportunity attacks when moving away from the target of the attack.
 Mark of Death (standard; encounter)
    Ranged 10; allies gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls and deal +10 damage against the target.
    Alignment Evil
    Languages Deep Speech
    Skills Arcana +22, Endurance +24, Intimidate +21, Stealth +27
    Str 30 (+23)
    Dex 28 (+22)
    Wis 15 (+15)
    Con 22 (+19)
    Int 18 (+17)
    Cha 16 (+16)

Crownwing Tactics
The crownwing places its mark of death upon the foe it perceives as the most dangerous, then orders its underlings to attack that target while it takes out weaker prey using its armblade and flyby attack power.

*Swordwing Lore*
A character knows the following information with a successful Dungeoneering check.

    DC 25: Swordwings are insectoid creatures that inhabit the Underdark. One of their arms ends in a scimitarlike blade, hence the name.

    DC 30: Swordwings live in clusters of tall “nesting spires” built from resources chewed out of the surrounding environment. From a distance, these towers resemble stalactites or stalagmites made of grayish-white paper, but in truth the structures are as hard as stone.

*Encounter Groups*
Swordwings occasionally ally with other Underdark dwellers such as mind flayers, beholders, and gibbering orbs.

Level 25 Encounter (XP 37,000)

    * 4 swordwings (level 25 soldier)
    * 1 crownwing (level 26 skirmisher)

Level 29 Encounter (XP 76,000)

    * 3 swordwings (level 25 soldier)
    * 1 gibbering orb (level 27 solo controller)


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## Kishin (May 2, 2008)

Rex Blunder said:
			
		

> OMG 4e is Pokemon!




Visually it gave me a huge Aura Battle Dunbine vibe. 

What can I say? I like to kick it old school. *duck*

On second thought, it also reminds me of the Vespid from 40K.

They're certainly crazy high level. I wouldn't expect a creature like that to be epic. Neat design though.


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## Roger (May 2, 2008)

Hmmm.  I hope there's some advice in the new DMG about how to handle vertical combat for monsters like this.

It can hover and it has Reach 2.  It could be hovering 15' off the ground, in melee combat with some PCs, some of whom might have Reach weapons.  Deciding just who can reach it, and from which squares, might be a little laborious without some good diagrams.



Cheers,
Roger


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## Boarstorm (May 2, 2008)

Well, it depends.  Do we measure vertical distance at 45 degree angle as 1: 2: 1, or 1: 1: 1? 

:evil:


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## Kunimatyu (May 2, 2008)

dystmesis said:
			
		

> Why is this thing level 25? It's just a dude with wings and swords for arms that likes collecting stuff. How is that an Epic threat?




Thematically I agree, but I'm guessing their flight abilities have a lot to do with their placement in the Epic tier.


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## frankthedm (May 2, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> Yeah, but I would be scared of the swordwing instead of being vaguely offended!



Well, if you take issue with Watto's appearance and mannerisms in episode 1, you should see him in episode 2. Chances are you'll find no vagueness in your offense   
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/9866/blackwattosk4.jpg


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## eve_of_dante (May 2, 2008)

In appearance, it is almost identical to the Vivisector from the MMV... a monster that I had a lot offun using...


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## DevoutlyApathetic (May 2, 2008)

So does their Swordwing marking do anything?  Is it only there to remove the Crownwing's marking?  Which would make it odd that Crownwings are better suited to leading creatures that don't mark on every hit.


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## Saitou (May 2, 2008)

I like how they're pairing a solo controller with three baddies.

No sarcasm there, folks, that's sure to be one tough encounter.


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## frankthedm (May 2, 2008)

Rex Blunder said:
			
		

> OMG 4e is Pokemon!



considering Pikachu snuck into the 3.0 MM and paladins have had pokemounts since 3.5, you are a little late with that dire warning...


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## cferejohn (May 2, 2008)

dystmesis said:
			
		

> Why is this thing level 25? It's just a dude with wings and swords for arms that likes collecting stuff. How is that an Epic threat?




Well I'd say first of all, the monster manual entries we're seeing kind of represent the rank-and-file as it were. If you're going up against a group of these guys, you'll probably have an assortment of crownwings and swordwings, and then you'll have some solos and/or elites that have more interesting (and hopefully more "epic") abilities. 

Think of this guy like a standard Orc. A 1st-2nd level adventure where you just fought generic orcs would be pretty dull too. We've seen how to quick-level monsters up and down, and presumably the monster manual will contain other ways to "trick them out" with abilities and such as well.

It does highlight my biggest 4e concern though: are higher levels just going to feel like the lower levels but with bigger numbers? Can bad guys truly feel "epic" if they *don't* have save or die/suck effects?


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## Fallen Seraph (May 2, 2008)

Well we haven't seen Epic Solo monsters yet (atleast as far as I remember). As such, we could get into some surprises there.

Also, it is less about individual monsters and more monsters working in groups. So you should be looking at monsters less individually, but how they could work in a group.


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## Lurker37 (May 2, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> So its confirmed that "marked" is a standard condition?  I'm assuming it works like the fighter's version of the mark.  Would I be correct?




That's hardly news. It was covered back in February



			
				Save My Game said:
			
		

> Marked is a new condition that defenders and some soldier monsters can apply to their enemies. By itself, it gives a penalty to your target if it attacks anyone but you, which helps defenders and soldiers fulfill their role on the battle grid. Often, though, there are other effects that serve as riders on the marked condition.




For those behind Firewalls here's more detail:
[SBLOCK]







			
				Save My Game said:
			
		

> Marked is a new condition that defenders and some soldier monsters can apply to their enemies. By itself, it gives a penalty to your target if it attacks anyone but you, which helps defenders and soldiers fulfill their role on the battle grid. Often, though, there are other effects that serve as riders on the marked condition. For instance the paladin's divine challenge -- that class's signature marking ability -- does some amount of radiant damage once a turn when the target of divine challenge attacks someone other than the paladin who marked him. Of course, the fighter (the other Player's Handbook defender) features a different effect, dissuading her mark from taking the battle elsewhere. Oh, and this is really important to remember -- a creature can be marked by only one opponent at a time and new marks supersede old marks.
> 
> So like the combat advantage granted by flanking, marked is relational in nature, but unlike flaking, it can't be apprehended purely by looking at the battle grid. In simple battles with one defender or soldier, you won't have any trouble at all -- just have the defender's player keep track of it -- but when you have two defenders in a group (like I do in my Castle Greyhawk paragon-tier game) or a group of mark-using soldiers in the encounter, keeping track of the condition can be a tad tricky, and you'll probably want to use a rigorous method for tracking the condition throughout the rounds.
> 
> The method I've been using lately is marking the bases with magnetic, colored counters called Alea Tools. Each character or monster that can mark in an encounter is given his or her own color, and when a target is marked, that color is placed under the base. Alea Tools also offers a tool to create 1-inch magnetized pads that you can put on the bottom of the base to make sure that when you move the mini, the marker comes with it. Last time I was at my local game store, I also noticed that Gale Force 9 offers a magnetized miniature base kit. You could also use beads, like I do for the bloodied condition.



 [/SBLOCK]


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## cdrcjsn (May 2, 2008)

DevoutlyApathetic said:
			
		

> So does their Swordwing marking do anything?  Is it only there to remove the Crownwing's marking?  Which would make it odd that Crownwings are better suited to leading creatures that don't mark on every hit.




The Crownwing ability is poorly worded because it uses Mark in the title.  It isn't actually a Mark.  Notice the ability doesn't say 'Marks the target' unlike the swordwing attack.

It's like a Hunter's Quarry or Warlock's Curse, neither of which are marks (which is a specific condition).


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## Stalker0 (May 2, 2008)

Look like a solid straightforward monster. But here's the thing I have to wonder about epic monsters.

Okay, this thing is 25th level. That's like near the top end of the power pyramid. And that's just one. According to the flavor, these things sound like hive type creatures. That means there are HUNDREDS!!! maybe THOUSANDS!!! of these things around. How haven't they taken over the entire underdark?


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## Fallen Seraph (May 2, 2008)

I imagine since they like to collect and live in huge hives. They don't like to travel and expand, thus they sit and multiply. 

Probably then after a while hope to a new section of the Underdark, and start to build a new hive. Which probably take thousands of years given they are made out of the resources around it, ie: rocks. Which would take a while to shape.

That and other Epic-level Underdark baddies keeping them down.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 2, 2008)

dystmesis said:
			
		

> Why is this thing level 25? It's just a dude with wings and swords for arms that likes collecting stuff. How is that an Epic threat?



Well, why are Pit Fiends epic threats? They are just larger humans with bat wings, red skin and a bad attitude!

I suspect the Swordwing might be an epic threat because it looks like an "invader" from the Far Realm. It comes from the beyond, it's behavior is nearly incomprehensible ("Okay, so it collects stuff? But why? What does it want with all the skulls? And why is it killing people to get the skulls? And why does it look so interested at my head?").



> Okay, this thing is 25th level. That's like near the top end of the power pyramid. And that's just one. According to the flavor, these things sound like hive type creatures. That means there are HUNDREDS!!! maybe THOUSANDS!!! of these things around. How haven't they taken over the entire underdark?



They look far-realmish, so there might be a hive around, just 10 ft vertical to normal space.. Let's hope these few Swordwings doesn't find a way to call the rest of them...

(But are Swordwings really interested in conquering the world? They want to collect...)


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## med stud (May 2, 2008)

dystmesis said:
			
		

> Why is this thing level 25? It's just a dude with wings and swords for arms that likes collecting stuff. How is that an Epic threat?



Swordwings could easily be force majeurs in a setting. They sweep in, kill/collect, and return to from where they came. Noone can really stop them. Kind of like predator, without Arnold to stop it .

The first thing that went through my mind when I read this was:

At the start of the campaign, the PCs hear about a town that has been more or less wrecked by a wing of these creatures. They came at dawn, struck seemingly at random at people, cutting of heads and tearing out hearts which they collected. The swordwings by themselves didn't kill more than 25-50 people but their arrival caused panic, people fled planlessly from the town, were getting trampled and at the same time, an opportunistic tribe of wolf riders struck at the refugees. Trade was disrupted, several key figures in the community were killed and fire broke out since people ran away from their open fires in kitchens and the like. The result was that a thriving town of 5000 now is a burned out town of 3000.

The PCs can of course do nothing about this. This happens again at levels, for example, 4, 9, 13 and so on until the PCs are strong enough to deal with the swordwings.

I see them as epic creatures since the ramifications of their collection-runs are so huge. Themselves, they don't care. They want pretty stuff and they take it.


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## med stud (May 2, 2008)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> Look like a solid straightforward monster. But here's the thing I have to wonder about epic monsters.
> 
> Okay, this thing is 25th level. That's like near the top end of the power pyramid. And that's just one. According to the flavor, these things sound like hive type creatures. That means there are HUNDREDS!!! maybe THOUSANDS!!! of these things around. How haven't they taken over the entire underdark?



As Mustrum Ridcully said, I doubt conquest of humanoids is on their agenda. They want to take things they consider pretty and compare their collections. Sometimes it's harmless, like nicely shaped rocks. Othertimes it's human heads they want to collect and compare.


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## Fallen Seraph (May 2, 2008)

Hmm... Actually, just imagine them with Darkvision. Can you say D&D Pitch Black.


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## Jason Bulmahn (May 2, 2008)

eve_of_dante said:
			
		

> In appearance, it is almost identical to the Vivisector from the MMV... a monster that I had a lot offun using...




Hmm, they really do kinda look like my precious organ stealing monster.. minus the organ stealing.. and the name... but at least they look similar. Weird.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
(yes, I pay attention to 4E news too   )


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## doctorhook (May 2, 2008)

I was apprehensive about seeing a new monster; lots, in the past, just ain't had no traction with me.

...But Swordwing looks rockin'! For whatever reason, the dragonfly wings and insectoid visage seem straight-up badass to me. (Incidentally, and probably for similar reasons, Scyther -- and Beedrill -- were among my favorite Pokemon.) I imagine a colony of Swordwings and Crownwings, fresh out of a rift from the Far Realms, building a new hive in the deepest reaches of the Underdark, and potentially threatening to infest the entire world.... Sounds like an awesome epic-level adventure, actually.

To the poster who wondered why Swordwings, at level 25, haven't totally overrun the Underdark: Swordwings haven't taken over because they probably don't exist in significant numbers outside of the Far Realms yet, because otherwise, they almost certainly would overrun. Swordwings only begin to appear or emerge from hibernation as the campaign reaches a point where the PCs will conceivably end up fighting them. (Kinda circular, I know, but it's a fantasy game; the appearance of Swordwings is just a MacGuffin.)


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## hong (May 2, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> So its confirmed that "marked" is a standard condition?  I'm assuming it works like the fighter's version of the mark.  Would I be correct?



 This is not the fighter's mark. If a fighter (or paladin) marks Fred, then Fred gets -2 to attack anyone except the fighter. By contrast, if this guy marks Fred, then all of his friends get a +2 to attack Fred.

... you know, it would have been SIMPLER if it was the fighter's mark. Then you wouldn't have to remember different types of marking as well as who marked who.


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## Plane Sailing (May 2, 2008)

mach1.9pants said:
			
		

> The creature is *incensed *by the blood of its enemies and attacks bloodied foes with greater accuracy.




Blood makes them angry?

"You are bleeding. That makes me Sooooo angry!"

Incensed seems to be a funny word to use here.

btw, chalk me up as 'not very inspired by' these as epic tier monsters.

I know it has been said before, but I want epic tier creatures to have MORE CAPABILITIES, damn it! I'm a big boy, I can handle epic creatures having 3-4 options each round to keep things interesting.


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## Fallen Seraph (May 2, 2008)

Well, those will probably be for Solo/Elites mainly. These aren't, so have less powers.


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## Ulorian - Agent of Chaos (May 2, 2008)

It has a sword for an arm, and it has wings. Let's call it... a swordwing. I'm fairly pro-4E, but these monster names... ouch.


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## hong (May 2, 2008)

It's quite possible that when the MM2 rolls around, epic monsters in that will have more wacky powers. It takes time to get used to all the ramifications of a new system. Compare the stats for the 3.5 Fiend Folio monsters to those in the 3.0 Monster Manual, for instance.


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## epochrpg (May 2, 2008)

Benimoto said:
			
		

> I sure wasn't expecting the swordwings.  Are they an entirely new monster?  I'm not really impressed at first glance, but maybe they'll grow on me.




just think of them as the reason there are no frost giants in the MM, and your true feelings will come to the surface...


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## Mathew_Freeman (May 2, 2008)

A plot hook occured to me straight away when reading this.

If they like to collect stuff, it would be fantastic if the characters learnt that a powerful artifact had been 'collected' by a group of stormwings - particularly if it was one they needed!

In fact, how about the last known location of an important NPC or ancestor of a PC was in an area that is infested with these things? Maybe the PC's could offer something in exchange for a family heirloom?


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## Simon Marks (May 2, 2008)

Ulorian said:
			
		

> It has a sword for an arm, and it has wings. Let's call it... a swordwing. I'm fairly pro-4E, but these monster names... ouch.




That's exactly how my character names things. 'Cept in this case it would be called a Swordfly.


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## med stud (May 2, 2008)

epochrpg said:
			
		

> just think of them as the reason there are no frost giants in the MM, and your true feelings will come to the surface...



...the feeling of joy 

Really, I like a new cathegory of monster better than elemental themed giants that take up 15 pages of the MM. There are some frost effects about. Take a fire giant, make it white and faux- Viking, remove the fire abilities and add some frost abilities. How hard can it be?


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## Fallen Seraph (May 2, 2008)

med stud said:
			
		

> ...the feeling of joy
> 
> Really, I like a new cathegory of monster better than elemental themed giants that take up 15 pages of the MM. There are some frost effects about. Take a fire giant, make it white and faux- Viking, remove the fire abilities and add some frost abilities. How hard can it be?



My thoughts exactly


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## med stud (May 2, 2008)

Ulorian said:
			
		

> It has a sword for an arm, and it has wings. Let's call it... a swordwing. I'm fairly pro-4E, but these monster names... ouch.



Well, the WotC- crew said that they are going for Germanic naming- conventions, and when you do that you get that kind of names. Both my language and German have many, many combined words in names.

For me, it feels like home


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## Dalamar (May 2, 2008)

The one thing that bothers me about the Swordwings is that their Immediate action attack is a reaction, not an interrupt. But I guess it doesn't really matter, unless somebody has a longer shift (such as Tumble), in which case they could be out of the Swordwing's reach after shifting.


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## Egres (May 2, 2008)

Does anyone know who is the swordwing image artist?


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## incantator (May 2, 2008)

As I was reading the comments, I was thinking to myself "what is so aberrant and creepy about a few giant insects?"  Then I thought, "they live in a hive; that could be made very Lovecraftian and even fairly epic by giving it impossible geometry."  You start heading east down a corridor and take a south door only to end up in the north room, you then try to backtrack and end up in a deeper level of the dungeon.  The doors lead to different areas depending on the time of day or whether you walk forward through them or backward.


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## hong (May 2, 2008)

Tell the truth, these things strike me as being more Feywild than Far Realms.


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## zoroaster100 (May 2, 2008)

I really liked the racial traits excerpt, but this one just made me go ... "Why?"

This seems like one of the silly random monsters from the original Fiend Folio.  Why do we need a bug with a blade for one arm?  What purpose does it serve?  Why are we being shown this one monster in a preview?  Does it illustrate some particular design point of 4E?


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## Ulorian - Agent of Chaos (May 2, 2008)

med stud said:
			
		

> Well, the WotC- crew said that they are going for Germanic naming- conventions, and when you do that you get that kind of names. Both my language and German have many, many combined words in names.
> 
> For me, it feels like home



You're right, I'm sure most languages name things by combining basic descriptive terms. It's just that English, being a hybrid of so many disparate languages, exposes these words in their original language (or in a bastardised form at least), so to an English speaker, these terms, although banal in their original tongue, seem mysterious and exotic.


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## Voss (May 2, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Blood makes them angry?
> 
> "You are bleeding. That makes me Sooooo angry!"




"Stop stabbing me then"!




> Incensed seems to be a funny word to use here.
> 
> btw, chalk me up as 'not very inspired by' these as epic tier monsters.
> 
> I know it has been said before, but I want epic tier creatures to have MORE CAPABILITIES, damn it! I'm a big boy, I can handle epic creatures having 3-4 options each round to keep things interesting.




Agreed, these things are boring on about every level.  
Ooo  Bugs that totally stab people!  And... thats all.  But wait, they're _humanoid bugs with swords for arms_ that makes them _totally awesome_, right?

...

No it does not.  

Maybe these things are the fodder of the epic tier and therefor supposed to be really dull.  I don't know, but they have the dubious honor of beating out the smoky temporal cat-centaur for winner of least interesting epic monster.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 2, 2008)

Benimoto said:
			
		

> I sure wasn't expecting the swordwings.  Are they an entirely new monster?




Reminds me an awful lot of the Sabreclaw, from CM3: Sabre River.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 2, 2008)

Voss said:
			
		

> "Stop stabbing me then"!
> 
> 
> 
> ...







> Maybe these things are the fodder of the epic tier and therefor supposed to be really dull.  I don't know, but they have the dubious honor of beating out the smoky temporal cat-centaur for winner of least interesting epic monster.



The Swordwing still looks less goofy. In fact, it looks really good to me. 

These compound names will be a real boon for translating. 
Swordwing => Schwertschwinge in German.


----------



## hong (May 2, 2008)

Schwing!


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## hong (May 2, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> Schwing!



 SWORDschwing!


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## Stogoe (May 2, 2008)

That One Guy said:
			
		

> Which is basically normal damage + normal crit damage. Any idea if PCs will be able to do something in league with this? I'm guessing (if it is PC getable) it'll be a feat. Maybe feats that allow it with certain weapons? Lend me your thoughts!




Yeah, it's armblade's just got the High Crit property - roll weapon damage again on a crit.  I think picks and maybe axes have it as a base weapon ability.


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## Gold Roger (May 2, 2008)

These would be cool as mid paragon threats. But I just don't see them as epic foes.

I mean "Where on our way to conquor hell! But first we must beet those Insekt people we are evenly matched against." just doesn't bring home the awesome.


----------



## webrunner (May 2, 2008)

fly 10 (hover)
 Armblade (standard; at-will)
Reach 2; +31 vs. AC; 2d6 + 10 damage (crit 2d6 + 22) plus an extra 2d6 damage if the crownwing is flanking the target.
 Flyby Attack (standard; at-will)
The crownwing flies up to 10 squares and makes one melee basic attack at any point during that movement. The crownwing doesn’t provoke opportunity attacks when moving away from the target of the attack.

This thing can, every turn:
Move action: fly 10 squares
Standard action: Flyby attack which lets it fly another 20 squares AND use armblade at some point.  If it's 11 squares away from something it can fly 10 squares to, attack with reach 2, then fly 10 squares away.  That's pretty keen.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 2, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> SWORDschwing!



How do you like Klingenschwinge?


----------



## hong (May 2, 2008)

Klingon schwing?


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## med stud (May 2, 2008)

webrunner said:
			
		

> fly 10 (hover)
> Armblade (standard; at-will)
> Reach 2; +31 vs. AC; 2d6 + 10 damage (crit 2d6 + 22) plus an extra 2d6 damage if the crownwing is flanking the target.
> Flyby Attack (standard; at-will)
> ...



Unless they fly by a fighter with a reach weapon that can stop it in it's track. I like the visual of a fighter with a spear slamming the crownwing to the ground .


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## Just Another User (May 2, 2008)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> Thematically I agree, but I'm guessing their flight abilities have a lot to do with their placement in the Epic tier.



I don't see why, sure they fly but a good number of base classes have ranged attacks with good damage, and if swordwings use their reach to saty out of normal melee (but not all) they can't use their sudden strike power, that works only against adiacent enemies, and they can't do AOs (no Threatening Reach, or what was its name) so an enemy can just move away, the only reason they are Epic is because they have a lot of hit points and high defenses, which is another way to say they are epic because they are high level. Take a kobold give him 250 hp and defense in the 30-40 range increase a little the damage, and he become epic, too.


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## Just Another User (May 2, 2008)

DevoutlyApathetic said:
			
		

> So does their Swordwing marking do anything?  Is it only there to remove the Crownwing's marking?  Which would make it odd that Crownwings are better suited to leading creatures that don't mark on every hit.




But the Mark of death is not a Marking ability. See, it don't says the target is Marked.


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## Just Another User (May 2, 2008)

Ulorian said:
			
		

> It has a sword for an arm, and it has wings. Let's call it... a swordwing. I'm fairly pro-4E, but these monster names... ouch.




When I read the name I tought it had to be a flying sword. With wings. Heck, D&D had worse monsters. Actually I think a monster like that existed in some previous edtion.


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## Pssthpok (May 2, 2008)

Well, now we know there are gibbering orbs in 4e.


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## Plane Sailing (May 2, 2008)

Pssthpok said:
			
		

> Well, now we know there are gibbering orbs in 4e.




Arguably the gibbering orb art preview might have spilt the beans there though


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## LordArchaon (May 2, 2008)

The flavor mix between predator and the creatures from Pitch Black, that others noted too, makes this monster's preview incredibly on time to excite me about 4e: these days I actually re-watched Predator and AvP2 and I watched Pitch Black for the first time!


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## Rechan (May 2, 2008)

Mark of death is a lot like the Sign of Vengeance for the Vengeance angel. Not in its effect, but the same general idea involved. 

Speaking of angels, these guys are far more badass than the angels are. Which is a shame. 



			
				Gold Roger said:
			
		

> These would be cool as mid paragon threats. But I just don't see them as epic foes.



Agreed. I actually want to reduce their numbers and make them level 20 or so for that reason. Makes me think of the winged bugs from _Resident Evil 4_.

But I dig it. I like the feel. I can also imagine these guys collecting _secrets_. And I can see a fighter hacking off an armblade so he can use it. I can also see weird, alien honeycombs with things stirring inside of them. Carrion crawler larvae? Victims yet eaten? Some sort of biological fuel for an eldrich device? 

But you know what these guys remind me of? In the Epic Level Handbook (or was it in Dragon?) there was a 21st level _roach_. They lived under cities, in colonies, and just... ate people's souls. 21st level bug (that spit sticky stuff and gave you negative levels, but still).

(While I think I will be using Bugbears for the _Predator_ vibe, I can dig that. Though I think the swordwing need more stealthy capacity before they can be proper Predators.)


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## Dausuul (May 2, 2008)

I agree with those who say this doesn't feel like an epic monster.  I've been trying to articulate what I think an epic monster _should_ feel like.

I don't think epic monsters all need heaps of special abilities.  Dumb brute monsters still have a place at epic levels, and you still need mook fights for contrast and a change of pace--not every battle can be a boss fight.  But...

Epic threats should feel rare and special--not in the sense that you seldom fight them at epic levels, but in the sense that they occupy a position at or near the top of the game world's power spectrum.  The presence of an epic monster, even a mook, should have a dramatic effect on its surroundings.  A malebranche (or war devil if you prefer) may be a mook in Epic-level terms, but it's still a GIANT FREAKING DEVIL that could lay waste to a castle or a town all by itself.  You don't get a gang of malebranche showing up to attack you unless you've personally pissed off one of the Dukes of Hell.  If you see malebranche just kind of hanging out around some minor evil temple, it destroys any sense of perspective and ruins the feeling of "epicness."

An epic-level monster, if it's awake and active, should make its presence felt for miles around.  And I just don't have that sense from swordwings.  It's a fluff thing more than a crunch thing (cue cries of "You can just change the fluff!" from the peanut gallery, to which I reply, "You can just change the rules, too, but that doesn't mean bad rules aren't bad").

A swordwing nest by rights ought to be a thing of terror in the Underdark, a place where even drow and mind flayers fear to tread.  Any nearby community, even a drow city, would fear the arrival of a swordwing "collector."  Lesser races like troglodytes and kuo-toa might worship them as gods and offer up sacrifices in hope of appeasing them.  Instead, the description makes it sound like swordwings are just another random Underdark oddity that PCs stumble across from time to time.

Now, to be fair, this may not be the entire Monster Manual entry.  I hope the full page spread suggests a bit more in the way of how they affect the lands around them.  But from the description given here, this is a Heroic-tier monster on steroids, not an Epic creature.


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## DSRilk (May 2, 2008)

Okay, I know someone asked this before in the thread, but the answer didn't make any sense to me:



> The creature is incensed by the blood of its enemies and attacks bloodied foes with greater accuracy




Where is the mechanic associated with this flavor text?

This creature leaves me nonplussed.  Why preview this seemingly boring critter?  Also, are these direct excerpts?  If so, it concerns me greatly, because not only is there no mechanic that obviously backs up the flavor text (though potentially I'm just not seeing it), but the lack of duration on one of the powers and confusing naming (calling a power Mark of... when it doesn't mark) can add unnecessary complication.  To me, these aren't flaws in the mechanics are much as they are flaws in the editing.  I'm hoping this is simply a matter of poorly copied and pasted (or poorly retyped) material and not an example of what we can expect from $40 books.


----------



## Rechan (May 2, 2008)

Dausuul said:
			
		

> Epic threats should feel rare and special--not in the sense that you seldom fight them at epic levels, but in the sense that they occupy a position at or near the top of the game world's power spectrum.  The presence of an epic monster, even a mook, should have a dramatic effect on its surroundings.  A malebranche (or war devil if you prefer) may be a mook in Epic-level terms, but it's still a GIANT FREAKING DEVIL that could lay waste to a castle or a town all by itself.  You don't get a gang of malebranche showing up to attack you unless you've personally pissed off one of the Dukes of Hell.  If you see malebranche just kind of hanging out around some minor evil temple, it destroys any sense of perspective and ruins the feeling of "epicness."



The problem with this though is that you need 10 encounters to level up. So for 21st level to 30th, that's 90 fights.

How do you make _each and every encounter_ feel like you are facing an EPIC monster? 

I don't think you can capture that feel _90 times in a row_.

Besides, I'd like to capture that feeling of EPICness before you ever reach Epic level. Your first dragon fight _should_ feel Epic, like you're battling a beast of legend. Same with other levels, against certain monsters. The whole "These monsters are _special_ and _rare_ and you should feel awesome for facing them in the first place" feeling shouldn't start when you Ding the 20th time.


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## Rechan (May 2, 2008)

DSRilk said:
			
		

> Okay, I know someone asked this before in the thread, but the answer didn't make any sense to me:
> 
> Where is the mechanic associated with this flavor text?



Like the answer before it: It gets a bonus to attack bloodied foes.

That's no different than gnolls getting more damage to bloodied foes, or Tieflings for that matter. It's the "I smell blood in the water, I attack harder."


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## DSRilk (May 2, 2008)

> Quote:
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted by DSRilk
> ...




What is the numeric bonus?  +2 to attack?  +5?  +1d6 damage?  And where is this listed?  Am I blind and just not seeing it (in which case, where is it), or am I simply daft due to old age and it's inherently known to everyone that when flavor text says "it gets a bonus to attack bloodied foes," it means +2 to attack or something?


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## Dausuul (May 2, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> The problem with this though is that you need 10 encounters to level up. So for 21st level to 30th, that's 90 fights.
> 
> How do you make _each and every encounter_ feel like you are facing an EPIC monster?
> 
> I don't think you can capture that feel _90 times in a row_.




You bunch them up.  Let's say there's a swordwing nest you're sending the PCs into.  That nest could involve four or five battles against the swordwings and their allies, plus two or three noncombat encounters; but you only have to create the "epic feeling" once, for the nest as a whole.



			
				DSRilk said:
			
		

> What is the numeric bonus?  +2 to attack?  +5?  +1d6 damage?  And where is this listed?  Am I blind and just not seeing it (in which case, where is it), or am I simply daft due to old age and it's inherently known to everyone that when flavor text says "it gets a bonus to attack bloodied foes," it means +2 to attack or something?




In the description of the Armblade attack:



			
				WotC said:
			
		

> Reach 2; +30 vs. AC *(+32 against a bloodied target)*; 2d6 + 9 damage (crit 2d6 + 21), and the target is marked until the end of the swordwing’s next turn; see also vicious opportunist.




(Emphasis added.)


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## Simon Marks (May 2, 2008)

DSRilk said:
			
		

> Where is the mechanic associated with this flavor text?




"Armblade (standard; at-will)
Reach 2; +30 vs. AC *(+32 against a bloodied target);*"


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## Delgar (May 2, 2008)

I'm probably alone in this, but when I first saw the picture and read up on them the first thing I thought of was the creature from Jeepers Creepers.


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## Rechan (May 2, 2008)

DSRilk said:
			
		

> What is the numeric bonus?  +2 to attack?  +5?  +1d6 damage?  And where is this listed?  Am I blind and just not seeing it (in which case, where is it), or am I simply daft due to old age and it's inherently known to everyone that when flavor text says "it gets a bonus to attack bloodied foes," it means +2 to attack or something?




Swordwing statblock: 
Melee Armblade (standard; at-will)
Reach 2; +30 vs. AC (*+32 against a bloodied target*); 2d6 + 9 damage (crit 2d6 + 21), and the target is marked until the end of the swordwing’s next turn; see also vicious opportunist.

I had to look close to find it.


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## chaotix42 (May 2, 2008)

Just Another User said:
			
		

> When I read the name I tought it had to be a flying sword. With wings. Heck, D&D had worse monsters. Actually I think a monster like that existed in some previous edtion.




Have you ever played Devil May Cry 4?   

I too am underwhelmed by these guys. Are the other Soldiers previewed so far as limited as the swordwing in terms of options?


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## DSRilk (May 2, 2008)

> "Armblade (standard; at-will)
> Reach 2; +30 vs. AC (+32 against a bloodied target);"




Thanks, guys!

Wow, I AM blind.  I looked and looked for that "against bloodied" type of text.  I'm apparently going to have to read and reread the stat blocks before I use them.  They seem easy to use, but the text apparently runs together for me in parts.


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## Dausuul (May 2, 2008)

DSRilk said:
			
		

> Thanks, guys!
> 
> Wow, I AM blind.  I looked and looked for that "against bloodied" type of text.  I'm apparently going to have to read and reread the stat blocks before I use them.  They seem easy to use, but the text apparently runs together for me in parts.




I suspect it will be less of a problem in play.  The "+32 against bloodied" doesn't jump out when you're just scanning the statblock, but when you're using the Armblade ability and go to look up the attack bonus, it's right there.  It's a very smart layout IMO.


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## Kaodi (May 2, 2008)

I am kind of underwhelmed by most of the info, and the name, but the illustration certainly gives the monster traction for me already. Way, WAY, better than what they are trying to pass off as " angels " .

But because of that early comparison post, in my mind they will probably be forever nicknamed " Scythers " hehehehe... Though perhaps we can call the Crownwings " Scissors " (sp?) .


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## GoodKingJayIII (May 2, 2008)

I'm confused about critical hits.  I thought it was maximum dice of damage plus bonuses.  The swordwing's critical hit is (2d6+21).  How does that work out?


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## Caliber (May 2, 2008)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> I'm confused about critical hits.  I thought it was maximum dice of damage plus bonuses.  The swordwing's critical hit is (2d6+21).  How does that work out?




We've seen a few weapons that have this property too ... on a crit you do your normal crit damage and roll weapon damage as well. More than likely there'll be a feat offering something like this with other weapon too.


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## Rechan (May 2, 2008)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> I'm confused about critical hits.  I thought it was maximum dice of damage plus bonuses.  The swordwing's critical hit is (2d6+21).  How does that work out?



The weapon has normal damage, and when it crits, it does MORE damage than its normal hit (i.e. 33 damage on a crit, rather than the 21 from a regular attack).

Or maybe it does the 21 auto-crit, and then you roll 2d6+21 in addition. I'm not sure.


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## Vomax (May 2, 2008)

A standard critical hit is simply max damage for the normal attack.  For the swordwing, a normal armblade attack is 2d6+9, so max damage is 21.  Certain weapons, including the swordwing's armblade, do extra damage on a critical equal to the damage of the weapon, which is 2d6 for the armblade.  So a critical hit with a swordwing's armblade is 21 (regular crit) + 2d6 (extra damage).  It's just listed as 2d6+21 because that's how everything involving dice and static numbers is written.


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## NebtheNever (May 2, 2008)

Tallarn said:
			
		

> A plot hook occured to me straight away when reading this.
> 
> If they like to collect stuff, it would be fantastic if the characters learnt that a powerful artifact had been 'collected' by a group of stormwings - particularly if it was one they needed!
> 
> In fact, how about the last known location of an important NPC or ancestor of a PC was in an area that is infested with these things? Maybe the PC's could offer something in exchange for a family heirloom?




This is an excellent idea. I still think these things are kind of bland for epic, but they make for a good side quest while on an epic adventure.


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## GoodKingJayIII (May 2, 2008)

Vomax said:
			
		

> A standard critical hit is simply max damage for the normal attack.  For the swordwing, a normal armblade attack is 2d6+9, so max damage is 21.  Certain weapons, including the swordwing's armblade, do extra damage on a critical equal to the damage of the weapon, which is 2d6 for the armblade.  So a critical hit with a swordwing's armblade is 21 (regular crit) + 2d6 (extra damage).  It's just listed as 2d6+21 because that's how everything involving dice and static numbers is written.




Aha!  So really, it's doing max damage (critical) *plus* bonus damage (specific property).  Cool, makes sense.  Thanks!


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## mmu1 (May 2, 2008)

I hate insect-themed hive-dwelling enemies. 

We must have spent literally a year and a half of real-time in our online Shadowrun game dealing with the Bug City event - Chicago under quarantine, with insect-spirit invaders and their freakin' queens coming in from another plane, trying to possess valuable hosts and eat the rest. It was a really fun story arc, but it's _over_ now, and I don't want to fight another hive ever again. 

That said... I'm with those who think that this isn't a very "Epic" enemy. It gets free attacks vs. shifting enemies? So does a 1st level Fighter. The only real difference is that it can fly, but that's something PCs are (IIRC) supposed to get access to in the Paragon tier. Bottom line, it's an orc with higher numbers.


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## 2eBladeSinger (May 2, 2008)

Dausuul said:
			
		

> A swordwing nest by rights ought to be a thing of terror in the Underdark, a place where even drow and mind flayers fear to tread.  Any nearby community, even a drow city, would fear the arrival of a swordwing "collector."  Lesser races like troglodytes and kuo-toa might worship them as gods and offer up sacrifices in hope of appeasing them.




This is good fluff, hope something like this is in the MM and their extistence as Epic-Level threats is justified by more than just numbers.

The problem of flufflessness seems to be persistent which may be a good sign- they are simply showing us how the monsters work mechanically and saving the fluff for the book... or it could be very very bad.  

They are from the Far Realm; they fly and have no darkvision, yet they choose to live in the Underdark because... the rent is so cheap?  It's like a race of tree-dwelling Great Whites.


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## I'm A Banana (May 2, 2008)

> Why preview this seemingly boring critter?




One of my larger remaining fears about 4e is that the Monster Manual will be chock full o' "4e's Phantom Fungi" like this -- monsters that are just overwhelmingly dull. And so get under-used because of it. 

So perhaps they previewed it because it is exemplary. 

The "collecting" thing is no great shakes. It's a stock "evil villan" plot than any semi-intelligent creature can use to make it seem kind of scary. I guess SOMETHING needed that plot, but it's more effective at lower levels because "oh noes it collects things" isn't really all that scary or world-shaking in any way.

It's a fine combat challenge, I imagine -- I'm glad monsters are getting "defender-ish" mechanics, really. But aside from "kill things and take their stuff," it doesn't really do anything.

And, really, that's a freakin' cardinal sin for a monster book.


----------



## Ruin Explorer (May 2, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> And, really, that's a freakin' cardinal sin for a monster book.




That's pretty much it is, isn't it.

God I hope you're wrong about these being a good example of a 4E monster. Lovely art, but the monster's entire concept is basically not scary, threatening, epic or anything, and all they really do is hit stuff, and they only justify their epic status via their stats.

I mean, yawn city. Wake me up again when they next preview a monster that's actually, y'know, even moderately interesting or scary.

I do like the mechanics, but honestly, I'm not wasting my player's time with a monster that conceptually dull.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (May 2, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> One of my larger remaining fears about 4e is that the Monster Manual will be chock full o' "4e's Phantom Fungi" like this -- monsters that are just overwhelmingly dull. And so get under-used because of it.



It certainly feels a lot like a Phantom Fungus to me.


----------



## Dausuul (May 2, 2008)

I'm not worried about monsters in the MM being _mechanically_ dull.  The examples we've seen range from simple "roll to attack, roll damage" monsters, like the swordwing, to complex and tactically-oriented monsters, like the pit fiend and the malebranche.  While I like the complex fights, I also want an array of simple brute monsters available.  4E seems to be striking a nice balance in this regard.

_Conceptually_ dull... well, we'll see.  My opinion so far is mixed.  Some of the conceptual stuff we've seen is excellent, some is mediocre, a few things are just horrid.  So far I'm guardedly optimistic about the fluff side of 4E; I'm sure I'll need to reflavor some things, but it doesn't look like I'm going to have to give the entire book a makeover.


----------



## MinionOfCthulhu (May 2, 2008)

I am with most of the posters here: These strike me as somewhat boring and uninspired. I do kind of like the fact that they like collecting things though, so if I do use them in a campaign, they're going to seven foot tall, insectoid, blade-armed _nerds_.

Swordwing: Here you go, boss, a collection of hearts.
Crownwing: You fool! Look at this one! It's not in_ mint condition!_ And this magic sword doesn't have its scabbard! It's worthless if its out of its package!


----------



## I'm A Banana (May 2, 2008)

> Conceptually dull... well, we'll see. My opinion so far is mixed. Some of the conceptual stuff we've seen is excellent, some is mediocre, a few things are just horrid. So far I'm guardedly optimistic about the fluff side of 4E; I'm sure I'll need to reflavor some things, but it doesn't look like I'm going to have to give the entire book a makeover.




There has been some good fluff, but most of that good fluff has been "supplementary." The info about the formorians, the stuff about the archons, all of that is good, but, so far, it doesn't look like it's going into any of the core rulebooks. Every excerpt and preview and photographed page from the MM we've had so far has been monumentally boring, even going so far as to _actively remove_ interesting things about the monster (the bodak is the example I keep bringing up, but the phane isn't a bad example, either). 

The interesting stuff is in the DDI. 

If this perception is accurate, I think it's really boneheaded, and whoever made that decision needs to be bludgeoned with a 13-foot tall beholder statue. 

A monster book should always inspire you to use the mosnters in interesting ways, and give you the guidelines that you'll need for running them in those ways. One of those ways, the most important of those ways, is absolutely combat. But combat is not the only way.

The "collection" angle on this guy is pretty weak sauce. The "predatory" angle on the phane is kind of sad. The "it likes to kill" angle on the bodak is hilariously awful.

I think the team will succeed at whatever they really want to succeed at, I'm mostly concerned that somewhere, they decided that giving the DM interesting ideas of plots in which to use the monster was not something they really wanted to worry about for the MM. 

I do think it's a big problem, because the monsters in 3e that worked that way were rather universally mocked -- phantontom fungi and ythraks and digesters and whatnot. These were not good monsters, though their mechanics were fine. These were poor monsters because they didn't give the DM any reason to want to put them in an encounter. 

Really, I'm kind of ranty about this because this was one of my FIRST fears about 4e, back when they were proud of how fast and easy mosnter customization was, and I've only seen things that would confirm the fear. 

*Sigh*. It's a good thing Necromancer is on point.


----------



## Fallen Seraph (May 2, 2008)

*Shrugs shoulders* Maybe I am just the odd one out. But I have always found it is the mechanics and artwork that inspired me not the fluff.

Whenever I made up encounters or the way monsters worked, I never once look at the fluff the monster has, since well it is my world, so the monsters will work my way.


----------



## I'm A Banana (May 2, 2008)

> *Shrugs shoulders* Maybe I am just the odd one out. But I have always found it is the mechanics and artwork that inspired me not the fluff.
> 
> Whenever I made up encounters or the way monsters worked, I never once look at the fluff the monster has, since well it is my world, so the monsters will work my way.




The easy litmus test is this:

Did you play 3e? Did you use the phantom fungus, ever?

The mechanics are cool on that one. It's a low-level threat that is invisible and also a plant, which means that it's good at surviving what the PC's can dish out. It automatically negates the "magic missile every round" strategy, and also the "flank him and then stab him" strategy, which are the basic combat strategies for low-level characters. 

I mean, if you didn't use it, maybe you thought the artwork was dumb? That's a pretty subjective thing, I guess, so I won't debate it.  

By the mechanics, the Phantom Fungus should have been in everyone's game at the mid-single-digits. Very cool encounter potential.

But it didn't tell a DM how to use it very well outside of the statblock.

Most commentary I've heard agrees that it's a pretty lousy monster -- the flumph of 3e. I'd be excited to learn that someone beat the odds on this one.  

Alternately, substitute the ythrak, the digester, or, heck, even the destrachan (and I'm being generous on that one, because their fluff is perhaps the best out of the group).


----------



## Voss (May 2, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Alternately, substitute the ythrak, the digester, or, heck, even the destrachan (and I'm being generous on that one, because their fluff is perhaps the best out of the group).




Keep going.  You're hitting every monster on my list of 'things to throw in the trash'
It irritates me that I went through 3rd editions MM I, II and III and the fiend folio and found about 250 usable monsters.  Thats about the number of monsters in one of those books.  I'd rather that didn't happen again.  Sadly, at the epic tier, they're at 1 for 3 for me.


----------



## Simon Marks (May 2, 2008)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> Bottom line, it's an orc with higher numbers.




Are Orcs dull then?


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## Lizard (May 2, 2008)

Another case where a cool concept is undermined by the stripped-down 4e mechanics. We have this nifty idea of a race of interdimensional mad collectors...muhgawd, there's plot potential there...but look at the skills! Appraise? Knowledge? History? Nope. Endurance and Stealth. The concept is not rendered into the mechanics. This is a Fail.

EDIT: To those noting it's "an orc with higher stats", well. who can be surprised by this? Every 4e monster has 2-4 tricks, and in the name of simple mechanics, a lot of Cool Abilities are reduced to very simple conditions. No ability drain, no level drain, no real long-term effects, means that just about everything boils down to "Does damage and inflicts a simple condition that ends with a save". So we have the Phane, which just does weakeness effects (that you've been facing since heroic levels) with dubious flavor text, and "epic" monsters whose powers are "hit you real hard, but not really too hard for you to take at your level because everything is supremely balanced".

I'm really hoping Necromancer's TOH introduces actually *interesting* abilities. (And that the GSL will show up and permit it....)


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## chaotix42 (May 2, 2008)

I don't see these guys as connoisseurs. Maybe the Crownwing is good at sorting out valuable magic items for his collection, but do you really need Appraise or History for your collection of skulls, hearts, or weapons? I figure they collect as much junk as truly valuable stuff, in the case of those swordwings that actually collect anything valuable at all. I see them going for some twisted Far Realm sense of aesthetics.


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## Lizard (May 2, 2008)

chaotix42 said:
			
		

> I don't see these guys as connoisseurs. Maybe the Crownwing is good at sorting out valuable magic items for his collection, but do you really need Appraise or History for your collection of skulls, hearts, or weapons?




To know if this is really the heart of an ancient iron dragon, as the scum who is trying to sell it to you claims, or if it's just a pit lord heart -- you already have ten! Sure, you'll kill the fool whether it's real or fake, but if you put it in the wrong display case...why, it will be the faux pas of the century! And with the crownwing coming to view your collection next month...well, being wrong is as good as being dead!



> I figure they collect as much junk as truly valuable stuff, in the case of those swordwings that actually collect anything valuable at all. I see them going for some twisted Far Realm sense of aesthetics.




See, based on the fluff, I immediately see one of these guys as the spider in the web, the master of a network of spies and thieves, who seek out especially rare and valuable items that fit the swordwing's twisted ideas of beauty or collectibility. You can base a long story arc on this concept. Unfortunately, the stats don't match -- average int and cha do not spell "Mastermind schemer" to me. Ultimately, it seems WOTC can't get away from the idea that monsters appear, get killed, and vanish -- the idea of seeing a cool monster in the MM and building a campaign around a sentence or two of flavor text is apparently quite alien to the current development mindset. 

(Sure, I can build my own monsters with the "right" stats and skills, but then we're back to "So what am I buying this book for?")


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## chaotix42 (May 2, 2008)

Good points. 

I like the crownwing gangster idea, and I still think it can work, just that the crownwing is the easily frustrated and eccentric leader of the group. He sits in his dank cave, waiting impatiently for his minions to gather what he wants while his swordwings sit in the corner playing with their lint and eyeball collections. When the rogues and warlocks return the crownwing spends some time silently inspecting the booty, then wigs out and eviscerates one or two of the poor fools for some imagined slight - of course he's never going to be completely satisfied!

Eventually one of the thieves fears for his own life and tries to double-cross the crownwing. Thing is, it turns out the crownwing just started up a nice collection of hostages, and the dude's girlfriend makes a great centerpiece. Enter PCs.

*EDIT* A simple scenario to be certain, but stimulus for quite a few adventures IMO. The PCs can become wrapped up in all sorts of convoluted plots hatched by the smarter and wiser minions of a much more powerful but simpler creature.


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## mmu1 (May 2, 2008)

Simon Marks said:
			
		

> Are Orcs dull then?




Only if you still have to fight them despite being high enough level to start rubbing shoulders with demigods.


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## SteveC (May 2, 2008)

My reaction to this creature is: wow is that a lot of hit points. At 234 Hit Points, the suggested encounter requires 1166 damage to get through. To finish this battle in 8 rounds requires the PCs do average 145 damage a round. Wow! Unless higher level characters do a lot more damage than we've seen so far, I'm not sure how that's going to happen.

Beyond that, these creatures seem pretty boring. They swoop in and ... attack. The Crownwings at least will be good with a spring attack, but it sounds like these guys will just hack on a character until dead. They'd be good as defenders to a certain extent, I suppose.

Pretty meh, although the art is nice.

--Steve


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## DandD (May 2, 2008)

These aren't Pokémon, these are the catchers who will try to make your heroes Pokémon. Gotta catch'em all, which is, your heroes are going to be collected into their hives. And by you, that is, your lungs will be, the rest will be discarded. 

Mwahahahaha...


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## cferejohn (May 2, 2008)

It just seems to me like these are the *generic* versions of the monsters we are seeing. I have the distinct impression that DMs are going to be encouraged (and given guidelines for) modifying these generic versions with tier-appropriate abilities to make more interesting encounters at higher levels, just as a DM would take a group of Orcs and make some of them spellcasters, some more powerful fighters, some archers, etc.


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## doctorhook (May 3, 2008)

I'm actually shocked by how many people apparently don't like the Swordwing! I think these guys rock as epic tier grunts, and I'm definitely going to be including a hive of these guys in my campaign. I really don't believe that every epic encounter needs to be against an Elder Dragon or a Demigod or a Demonlord; I'm happy to see a cool-looking "normal" monster for beyond 20th level.

There's waayy too much negativity in this thread!


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## I'm A Banana (May 3, 2008)

Even epic-level grunts should be interesting. That was pointed out upthread a bit, but it's fantastically true.


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## doctorhook (May 3, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Even epic-level grunts should be interesting. That was pointed out upthread a bit, but it's fantastically true.



I absolutely agree with you: epic-level grunts SHOULD be interesting. Personally, I do find Swordwings interesting, but as always, YMMV.

In all fairness though, I will admit I only skimmed the fluff-text of the article. This was deliberate, as I generally prefer to let my imagination wander, and the Swordwing did not disappoint me.


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## Shroomy (May 3, 2008)

doctorhook said:
			
		

> I'm actually shocked by how many people apparently don't like the Swordwing! I think these guys rock as epic tier grunts, and I'm definitely going to be including a hive of these guys in my campaign. I really don't believe that every epic encounter needs to be against an Elder Dragon or a Demigod or a Demonlord; I'm happy to see a cool-looking "normal" monster for beyond 20th level.
> 
> There's waayy too much negativity in this thread!




Yeah, I got to agree with doctorhook here...there's epic monsters with a capital E and then there are monsters meant to fight epic characters.  I think that the crownwing does have the stats to be a mastermind of sorts, but I think if you truly want a bigtime villain, you'll have to do some adjustments.  Both just happen to be mechanically represented by monster levels of 20+ (though truly epic monsters are probably better represented as elite or solo monsters).  I've already got ideas swirling around the idea of a crownwing lich, perhaps with a class template (however those work).


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## Jhaelen (May 3, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Alternately, substitute the ythrak, the digester, or, heck, even the destrachan (and I'm being generous on that one, because their fluff is perhaps the best out of the group).



Well, I've used the yrthak. But I only used it because the gulgar (from MM3) use them as mounts. Gulgar had very interesting fluff (love their infrasonic speech!), imho.

So, monsters can become interesting retroactively when interesting monsters are added that associate or synergize with them. The same could be true with the swordwings: If there's e.g. an intriguing controller type monster in the book that breeds these for its army they become more interesting by association.


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## Lizard (May 3, 2008)

It occurs to me that the swordwing can be 'fixed' by the simple expedient of adding a single class level -- give them one level of Rogue (granting a lot of skills) and take Skill Training as a feat to pick up the skill needed to do rituals (so they can cast Identify). Because 4e lacks skill points, even a single level in a class grants a LOT of level-appropriate skill benefits, and the rogue powers synergize nicely with the swordwing. They may not be 'epic level' powers, but an extra d6 is an extra d6...and my theoretical swordwing mastermind isn't supposed to be a combat monster anyway.

Or I suppose I could just create a "Swordwing Archivist" monster from scratch, if it came to that, making him an Elite Leader type.


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## cignus_pfaccari (May 3, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Blood makes them angry?
> 
> "You are bleeding. That makes me Sooooo angry!"
> 
> Incensed seems to be a funny word to use here.




They frenzy at the scent of blood?  Kind of like sharks?

Brad


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## cignus_pfaccari (May 3, 2008)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> We must have spent literally a year and a half of real-time in our online Shadowrun game dealing with the Bug City event - Chicago under quarantine, with insect-spirit invaders and their freakin' queens coming in from another plane, trying to possess valuable hosts and eat the rest. It was a really fun story arc, but it's _over_ now, and I don't want to fight another hive ever again.




Look at it this way, though.

THESE aren't immune to Panther Assault Cannon rounds.

Brad


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## Spatula (May 3, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> Tell the truth, these things strike me as being more Feywild than Far Realms.



Agreed.  There's not one tentacle on the buggers!  I would picture a Far Realms flying thing to look at least as oddball as a Mi-Go.

Hm, a lot of neat Mi-Go pictures out there.  Bless you, google image search!
http://br.geocities.com/ktulurising/Galeria/migo.jpg
http://www.hplovecraft.es/fotos/hpedia/migo.jpg
http://www.hamsterizer.com/Art/images/Items/MiGo01b.jpg


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## Mengu (May 4, 2008)

Wouldn't it be very easy to adjust this monster to be a mid-paragon level threat, if that's how you wanted to use them? Say you want the Swordwing to be a level 15 Soldier:

*Swordwing*
    Level 15 Soldier
    Medium aberrant humanoid
    XP ?
    Initiative +16 Senses Perception +13; low-light vision
    HP 154; Bloodied 77
    AC 32; Fortitude 30, Reflex 28, Will 22
    Speed 6, fly 10 (hover)
  Armblade (standard; at-will)
    Reach 2; +20 vs. AC (+22 against a bloodied target); 2d6 + 4 damage (crit 2d6 + 16), and the target is marked until the end of the swordwing’s next turn; see also vicious opportunist.
 Sudden Strike (immediate reaction, when an adjacent enemy shifts; at-will)
    The swordwing makes a melee basic attack against the enemy. The attack deals an extra 2d6 damage if it hits.
    Vicious Opportunist
    The swordwing’s opportunity attacks deal an extra 2d6 damage.
    Alignment Evil
    Languages Deep Speech
    Skills Endurance +20, Stealth +19
    Str 28 (+16)
    Dex 24 (+14)
    Wis 13 (+9)
    Con 26 (+15)
    Int 10 (+7)
    Cha 10 (+7)

Takes about a minute to make the adjustments, and another minute to compare to another level 15 soldier and think it through to make sure there isn't an ability 15th level characters would not be able to handle. Comparing it to the Level 14 Soldier Boneclaw, you see most things are comparable.

I think they said it's not advisable to make adjustments for more than 5 levels, but on a simple monster like this, there can't be too much harm. If in doubt, use one less swordwing than an encounter would call for.

And if you don't like how the monster looks, clip the wings, give them innate flight, orange skin, beefier muscles, and have them wielding jeweled weapons, wearing crowns, necklaces, and bracers, and give them a different name like Eternal Gypsies. So in all of 5 minutes, you turned a page in the monster manual you didn't like, into your next encounter. I think with simple monsters like these, we'll have a lot more flexibility to fill in ranks of soldiers and skirmishers as needed. I could easily add two of these as guardians to some evil Efreet lord.


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## Lackhand (May 4, 2008)

My biggest problem? It should be a threat from the feywild.

It isn't epic in flavor enough. The stats are fine, it just needs one more line of flavortext -- it causes everyone who sleeps within five miles of its nesting spire to dream (obsessively) about what it collects -- and given long enough years, to seek out the spire and bring the nest the objects of its many desires.

Tadaa. Now, that didn't need to be written in the book; I came up with that, spur of the moment while writing this post. But I don't see why things like that _shouldn't_ be.


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## Hella_Tellah (May 4, 2008)

Mengu said:
			
		

> Wouldn't it be very easy to adjust this monster to be a mid-paragon level threat, if that's how you wanted to use them? Say you want the Swordwing to be a level 15 Soldier:
> 
> *Swordwing*
> Level 15 Soldier
> ...




Good first post!


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## StarFyre (May 4, 2008)

*hmm*

reminds me of the Tau Vespid's for WH 40K...


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## The Little Raven (May 4, 2008)

Ulorian said:
			
		

> It has a sword for an arm, and it has wings. Let's call it... a swordwing. I'm fairly pro-4E, but these monster names... ouch.




Better than a Ghhjkslmz or whatever it would have been named back in the days of "let's pull some letters out of a Scrabble bag" naming schemes.


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## Piratecat (May 4, 2008)

Lackhand said:
			
		

> It isn't epic in flavor enough. The stats are fine, it just needs one more line of flavortext -- it causes everyone who sleeps within five miles of its nesting spire to dream (obsessively) about what it collects -- and given long enough years, to seek out the spire and bring the nest the objects of its many desires.



As a guy running a 3.5 epic lvl game, I'll point out that there's a definite need for epic lvl monsters that are really tough but not necessarily "changes the whole world around them" flavorful. I loved the addition of your text, but it means that you couldn't really use them unless you've seeded rumors about obsessive dreaming. Sometimes you just need something with a lot of hit points to whack on... a mook instead of a named character, to use Feng Shui terms. The swordwing seems to fit the bill.


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## Benimoto (May 4, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> Yeah, I got to agree with doctorhook here...there's epic monsters with a capital E and then there are monsters meant to fight epic characters.



Yeah, that's the thing.  It's one thing to say that all epic level monsters should be fascinating, world-threatening creatures, but it's another thing to actually do it.  After all, there's 10 levels in the epic tier, and each level is going to involve 10ish encounters with 5ish monsters in each encounter.

Over a course of 500 monsters, you're going to need some "epic orc warriors".  It's just good adventure pacing.


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## Lizard (May 4, 2008)

Benimoto said:
			
		

> Yeah, that's the thing.  It's one thing to say that all epic level monsters should be fascinating, world-threatening creatures, but it's another thing to actually do it.  After all, there's 10 levels in the epic tier, and each level is going to involve 10ish encounters with 5ish monsters in each encounter.
> 
> Over a course of 500 monsters, you're going to need some "epic orc warriors".  It's just good adventure pacing.




Then why not use, well, epic orc warriors? Just level an orc to 25 and be done with it. He'll have more cool powers and equipment.

The thing is, there's nothing about the swordwing which makes it epic, other than the numbers. I could take the same basic mechanics and use it at 5th level, or 15th, just scale it. There's nothing there which players need epic-level powers to match or counter -- even the fact it flies is not relevant, since it has to close to melee range to do any damage.

In theory, a reasonably large number of commoners could kill one. Compare to high level 3x critters, which usually had DR, incorporeality, or something else which basically made them invulnerable to 'mundane' weapons, or special attacks (death ray, life drain, whatever) which only high-level characters could face or recover from, etc.

I think the swordwing is an interesting enough monster, and I can see using it -- see above -- but there's nothing "epic" about it. It's the obvious downside of "extending the sweet spot" -- gameplay changes very little between level 1 and level 30. Instead of orcs attacking the village, it's swordwings attacking the nation, but if you did a statistical analysis of damage as "% of hit points lost/attack", I'm guessing you'd find the battle plays out pretty much the same. Do D&D players WANT the same basic play across 30 levels? WOTC thinks so. The market will decide.


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## hong (May 4, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> Then why not use, well, epic orc warriors? Just level an orc to 25 and be done with it. He'll have more cool powers and equipment.




Some people will no doubt do that. However, the backdrop to which epic encounters take place may not be one in which orcs have much of a place.

This is entirely different to the question of whether epic monsters are "interesting".



> I think the swordwing is an interesting enough monster, and I can see using it -- see above -- but there's nothing "epic" about it. It's the obvious downside of "extending the sweet spot" -- gameplay changes very little between level 1 and level 30. Instead of orcs attacking the village, it's swordwings attacking the nation, but if you did a statistical analysis of damage as "% of hit points lost/attack", I'm guessing you'd find the battle plays out pretty much the same. Do D&D players WANT the same basic play across 30 levels? WOTC thinks so. The market will decide.




I, personally, am looking forward to paragon-tier play as having bigger numbers and more shock than heroic tier.


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## The Little Raven (May 4, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> Then why not use, well, epic orc warriors?




Because I don't want to use orcs. I want to use epic-level grunts that aren't just beefed up dudes from previous tiers.


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## AllisterH (May 4, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> In theory, a reasonably large number of commoners could kill one. Compare to high level 3x critters, which usually had DR, incorporeality, or something else which basically made them invulnerable to 'mundane' weapons, or special attacks (death ray, life drain, whatever) which only high-level characters could face or recover from, etc.
> 
> I think the swordwing is an interesting enough monster, and I can see using it -- see above -- but there's nothing "epic" about it. It's the obvious downside of "extending the sweet spot" -- gameplay changes very little between level 1 and level 30. Instead of orcs attacking the village, it's swordwings attacking the nation, but if you did a statistical analysis of damage as "% of hit points lost/attack", I'm guessing you'd find the battle plays out pretty much the same. Do D&D players WANT the same basic play across 30 levels? WOTC thinks so. The market will decide.




Two points. (I haven't seen anything say that a 20 is an auto-hit...)

The defense on the swordwing, AC 42, Fort 40, Ref 38, Will 32  are so high that a SUCCUBUS couln't even lay a hand on a swordwing (+14 vs AC attack) so I'm not sure how many 1st level human guards you want to throw at it...

I don't think Epic wil be "boring" and that's actually because of a 3.5 article...The little bit of preview we saw on Epic Destinies literally blew away the 3.5 EPIC HANDBOOK in terms of giving "EPIC" feel.

If an article using 3.5 rules to incorporate a 4E concept is that cool, then I'm kinda leaning HEAVILY on the side that Epic in 4E is going to rock...


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## ZetaStriker (May 4, 2008)

Did anyone else see the Swordwing's description and immediately think of him as comic relief? The second I heard he hoarded things, I immediately though of an otaku/nerd holed up in his parent's basement, surrounded by figurines of female characters from a variety of anime... or as someone else pointed out to me, lady's underwear. I no longer possess the capacity to make his hoarding even the least bit sinister without cracking a smile.


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## Lizard (May 4, 2008)

AllisterH said:
			
		

> Two points. (I haven't seen anything say that a 20 is an auto-hit...)




It is, and it's always max damage since there's no critical confirm. Sure, it would take a LOT of City Guards to take him down, but the math allows it.


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## Lizard (May 4, 2008)

Mourn said:
			
		

> Because I don't want to use orcs. I want to use epic-level grunts that aren't just beefed up dudes from previous tiers.




And this differs from orcs with a palette swap how, exactly?

It's got reach and does extra damage when bloodied. Change some fluff and...

Orc Grandmaster Pikeman (25th level soldier)
Ripping Slash Of The Grandmaster (standard; at-will; weapon)
Reach 2; +30 vs. AC (+32 against a bloodied target); 2d6 + 9 damage (crit 2d6 + 21), and the target is marked until the end of the pikeman’s next turn; see also vicious opportunist.

The thing is, within the 4e paradigm, this is a perfectly sane power. There's nothing magical about it; it works fine as written and requires no SOD (once you accept 4e in general). Rescale the numbers and he is a paragon-level Orc Master Pikeman; lower them more and he is a Heroic tier Orc Elite Pikeman. The only difference is the Weapon tag, and while that might make him a tiny bit vulnerable to disarms, I will doubt that, for epic-on-epic combat, disarming a foe will be no easier than it is at lower levels.

How to make it epic? Give it something which can't/shouldn't exist at lower tiers. It ignores all armor bonus from non-magical armor. It impales you on its sword arm and a million tiny leech mouths open up and it sucks your blood (followup attack against Fortitude, and you are weakened. Save ends.). It can make a broad sweep with its arm and decapitate all non-epic tier creatures within its reach (encounter power, that). Something, anything which says, "There is no way a jumped up orc with a fancy polearm could do this, no way, no how."

You may not need a 3x style laundry list of spells and custom powers which never come into play, but you do need (IMO) something which says "This is a different kind of beastie than we've fought before."


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## Ulorian - Agent of Chaos (May 4, 2008)

Mourn said:
			
		

> Better than a Ghhjkslmz or whatever it would have been named back in the days of "let's pull some letters out of a Scrabble bag" naming schemes.



Ha! Surely there's a happy medium though...


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 4, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> And this differs from orcs with a palette swap how, exactly?
> 
> It's got reach and does extra damage when bloodied. Change some fluff and...
> 
> ...



Well, the Elite Orc doesn't fly, nor has he any fly-related special abilities. So I think there is already something that makes our Schwertschwinge a very different beastie from  an orc with a polearm. (But I like your leech mouths power  )


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## Just Another User (May 4, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> In theory, a reasonably large number of commoners could kill one.




That is true for most of the 4e monsters, too. Put enough rock throwing peasants together and even epic level monsters must be careful.


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## The Little Raven (May 4, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> And this differs from orcs with a palette swap how, exactly?




Because the epic-level grunts are already written up for me and I don't have to spend any time working up stats for palette-swapped leveled orcs. I appreciate your example, but you see... it all requires effort, and sometimes I just want to open a book, flip to a page and start rolling some dice. You, sir, have underestimated my laziness.


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## Lackhand (May 4, 2008)

Also, if you mean _specifically_ an Orc Grandmaster, there's another reason not to use it: The players were fighting orcs at level 1, and warbands at level 8, and defeated the Khan of the Twelve Tribes, the most might orc for miles around, at level 15.

When they're level 25, no fair saying "But actually there were about 58 more orcish grandmasters just _waiting_ to come get you!" -- and, since the bladewings are regular, mookish adversaries, even the argument of vendetta (that is, that the players _created_ the grandmasters) loses steam.


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## D.Shaffer (May 5, 2008)

Lizard said:
			
		

> It occurs to me that the swordwing can be 'fixed' by the simple expedient of adding a single class level -- give them one level of Rogue (granting a lot of skills) and take Skill Training as a feat to pick up the skill needed to do rituals (so they can cast Identify).



Or you could just note they have the skills X,Y & Z you want them to have as well as the ability to cast rituals.  There's really no reason to add a class level just to give them more class skills anymore.  If you really wanted the 'strikery' powers, you could probably make more creature appropriate ones then just Rogue powers too (And I'll be surprised if there isnt a more assassin oriented version as is)


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## Plane Sailing (May 7, 2008)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> They frenzy at the scent of blood?  Kind of like sharks?
> 
> Brad




That's my point, really. I would have understand it if the scent of blood drove them into a frenzy or something, but saying that they are 'incensed' by blood? Makes it sound like they find it offensively distasteful.

"By golly, that blighter over there is squirting red fluids over me"

"Can't be having that - cut him up more fiercely"


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