# Special Conversion Thread: Angels (and possibly other heavenly creatures)



## Shade (Dec 2, 2008)

This thread will focus on the remaining unconverted angels in Dragon Magazine #17 and #35.  We may then expand it to other celestial creatures that have not yet been converted.


*Angel Traits:* An angel possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). 

Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. 
Immunity to acid, cold, and petrification. 
Resistance to electricity 10 and fire 10. 
+4 racial bonus on saves against poison. 
Protective Aura (Su): Against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures, this ability provides a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws to anyone within 20 feet of the angel. Otherwise, it functions as a magic circle against evil effect and a lesser globe of invulnerability, both with a radius of 20 feet (caster level equals angel’s HD). This aura can be dispelled, but the angel can create it again as a free action on its next turn. (The defensive benefits from the circle are not included in an angel’s statistics block.) 
Tongues (Su): All angels can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level equal to angel’s Hit Dice). This ability is always active. 

Angels speak Celestial, Infernal, and Draconic, though they can speak with almost any creature because of their tongues ability.

*Common Spell-like Abilities Among Angels*

aid - all but planetar
commune - monadic and movanic devas, solar
continual flame - all
cure X wounds - all devas
detect evil - all
discern lies - all
dispel magic or greater dispel magic - all but movanic deva
heal - astral deva, solar
holy smite - all
plane shift - all devas
polymorph - all
raise dead - all except astral deva and solar (solar has ressurection, though)
remove curse - all
remove disease - all
remove fear - all

"Greater Angels" (solar and planetar) Only:
earthquake 
greater restoration 
lesser restoration 
mass charm monster 
power word stun 
waves of exhaustion 
waves of fatigue 

Always active on "greater angels": detect evil, detect snares and pits, discern lies, see invisibility, and true seeing. They can be dispelled, but the angel can reactivate them as a free action.

_"Lesser" Angels:_
Agathion: CR 9, 7 HD, Str 19, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 18, Cha 17, DR 10/evil, SR 18
Light: CR 12, 10 HD, Str 1, Dex 18, Con 17, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 21, DR 10/evil, SR 22

_Devas:_
Movanic Deva: CR 9, 6 HD, Str 17, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 16, Cha 18, DR 10/evil, SR 22, _+1 flaming greatsword_ 
Monadic Deva: CR 12, 10 HD, Str 20, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 19, DR 10/evil, SR 22, uncanny dodge, _+3 mace of smiting _
Astral Deva: CR 14, 12 HD, Str 22, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 20, DR 10/evil, SR 30, uncanny dodge, _+3 heavy mace of disruption_

_"Greater" Angels:_
Planetar: CR 14, 16 HD, Str 25, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 22, Wis 23, Cha 22, DR 10/evil, SR 30, regen 10, _+3 greatsword_
Solar: CR 23, 22 HD, Str 28, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 23, Wis 25, Cha 25, DR 15/epic and evil, SR 32, regen 15, _+5 dancing greatsword_

*Skills*

_Skills common to all angels:_
Concentration, Diplomacy, Knowledge (any x), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot (and a couple have Balance)

_Additional skills common to "greater" angels:_
Craft (any x), Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Search, Spellcraft

*Feats*

_Feats common to most angels:_
Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Power Attack

_Other feats among angels:_
Alertness, Blind-Fight, Dodge, Great Fortitude, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Mobility, Track, Weapon Focus (greatsword)


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2008)

We'll start with the angels in Dragon Magazine #17:

Abilities common to all the angels are:  Teleportation (no chance of error), Continual Light (of varying degree), Bless, Fear and Detect Evil. All angels can speak any human tongue as well as Speak With Dead. The very presence of an angel turns undead as a Patriarch. Angels are immune to psionic attack and to the Finger of Death.

Each of the four types of angels has a general purpose, with special abilities commensurate with that purpose. The four types are:

*Type I: The Angel of Wrath.* This angel appears as a whitewinged, haloed, male warrior in golden armor and shield. They often appear on the side of Law in fateful battlefield conflicts with Chaos, to rally warriors for a holy cause, and as holy guardians. The Angel of Wrath wields a +5 Holy Sword in battle (the sword, along with the golden armor and shield, disappears if the angel is vanquished). Aside from those abilities common to all angels, the Angel of Wrath can at will cast a Continual Light, 5’ radius equal to full daylight, Cure Serious Wounds, Quest, create a double-strength Wall of Fire three times/day and pronounce a Holy Word once/day. Without the Holy Sword, magic resistance is 65%. Armor class O, can only be hit by magic weapons, moves 12/24”, and has ten (eight-sided) hit dice.

BOZ and I had submitted a query on angels back when Dragon Magazine was still around, and here was our suggestion for these guys:

Angel, Wrath (or Wrathbringer) (Outsider, CR 13)
Appears as a beautiful humanoid with white wings garbed in shining golden armor.  Wrath angels are sent to punish evildoers and battle fiends.  A wrath angel wields a +3 holy longsword and bears magical armor and shield.  In addition to the usual angel abilities, a wrath angel has a retributive strike ability similar to that of the Wrath domain (Book of Exalted Deeds), allowing it to make an attack of opportunity once per round against a creature that damage it.  It is surrounded by a vengeance halo (Book of Exalted Deeds), which deals divine damage to its slayer upon its death.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 2, 2008)

Your suggestions sound pretty good. Do we want to do anything with the "double-strength" wall of fire? Empower SLA, perhaps?


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2008)

I summarized abilities and stats for the various angels in the first post of this thread.  Take a look at it, and tell me if agree that these fellows should be "greater" angels.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 3, 2008)

They strike me as being more in line with devas than with greater angels, but I'm not too picky.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2008)

Since we'd pegged these around CR 13, they fall somewhere between the monadic deva and the astral deva and planetar, so maybe...

10-11 HD, Str 22-24, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 20-21, DR 10/evil, SR 27 (which would retain the original 65% for its CR)?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 3, 2008)

Actually, thing is, I really, really dislike angels as they're designed in 3e. Very few HD for their CR, but with way too many SLAs. If we're going to build these angels in line with established angels, your suggestions look just fine. But if I had my druthers, I'd ignore the rest of the angelic host and design it like any other monster.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2008)

While I'd like to keep most of the converted in line with the existing angels, I could see straying a bit on these fellas since they sound more melee-centric.  We could boost the HD and physical prowess a bit, and pare down the SLAs.  

In that case, maybe 13-14 HD, Str 24-25, Dex 16-19, Con 20, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 20-21, DR 10/evil, SR 27?

I'd rather they don't eclipse planetars in either HD or ability scores.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 3, 2008)

Your suggestions sound good. I agree that angels of wrath should be more melee centric, and your HD and ability scores look right to me.

My grievance with angels is that they don't appear to have been redesigned at all between 3e and 3.5. In 3e, demons and devils also had very low HD for their CR and way more SLAs than they needed, and they got a HD boost and a SLA trim and now (in my play experience) work a lot better. A lot of celestials remained pretty much unchanged, and that's just lazy.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Here are the inspirations for the two abilities suggested in our original pitch...

Wrath Domain Granted Power: Once per day, you may subtract a number of points from your Wisdom score equal to or less than your cleric level. For every 2 points you subtract from your Wisdom score, add 1 point to your Strength score. You suffer all the effects of reduced Wisdom including access to spells and bonus spells, reduction of Will saves, and penalties on Wisdom-based skills. This trade between ability scores lasts for 1 round per cleric level and cannot be ended prematurely.

Vengeance Aura:  A luminous ring of holy power appears above the head of a good creature and remains in place until the spell expires or the creature is slain (reduced to -10 hp). If the latter event occurs, the halo discharges an arc of divine energy that deals 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 20d6) to the target's slayer. The creature subject to the attack can make a Reflex save to reduce the damage by half. Once the vengeance halo unleashes its energy, it disappears and the spell ends.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 3, 2008)

So vengence aura = death throes? Why don't we just give them death throes?

Not a fan of the switching Wis for Str thing, but I like the idea of them getting an immediate attack 1/round against someone who strikes them in melee.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2008)

Good point on death throes.

Hmmm...I think we incorrectly identified the granted power of the Wrath domain rather than the Retribution domain.  Check it out...

Granted Power: If you have been harmed by someone in combat, you may make a strike of vengeance with a melee or ranged weapon against that individual on your next action. If this attack hits, you deal maximum damage. You may use this supernatural ability once per day.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 3, 2008)

Hm... I still prefer the retribution power to that of wrath.


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2008)

I like the retributive strike, too.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

OK, so...

Retributive Strike (Ex?):  An angel of wrath may make an attack of opportunity once per round as an immediate action against a creature that damaged it with a melee attack.

Death Throes (Ex): When killed, an angel of wrath explodes in a blinding flash of holy power that deals 1d6 points of damage per Hit Die (13d6 for a typical angel of wrath, maximum 20d6) to any nongood creature within 100 feet (Reflex DC x half ). This explosion automatically destroys any weapons the angel is holding. The save DC is Constitution-based.

or...

Death Throes (Ex): When killed, an angel of wrath explodes in an arc of holy power that deals 1d6 points of damage per Hit Die (13d6 for a typical angel of wrath, maximum 20d6) to its slayer (Reflex DC x half ). This explosion automatically destroys any weapons the angel is holding. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 4, 2008)

Hm. Not sure if I like it damaging just its slayer, or all non-good creatures.

There's a paladin spell that that gives death throes that actually heals good creatures equal to the damage dealt.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 4, 2008)

Hm. Not sure if I like it damaging just its slayer, or all non-good creatures.

There's a paladin spell that that gives death throes that actually heals good creatures equal to the damage dealt.


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2008)

I think I like the first option with demiurge's suggestion of also healing good creatures.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

Death Throes (Ex): When killed, an angel of wrath explodes in a blinding flash of holy power that deals 1d6 points of damage per Hit Die (13d6 for a typical angel of wrath, maximum 20d6) to any nongood creature within 100 feet (Reflex DC x half), and heals good-aligned creatures within the area by a similar amount. This explosion automatically destroys any weapons the angel is holding. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Better?

Should "nongood" be replaced with "evil", leaving neutrals unphased?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 4, 2008)

Let it blast neutrals. Maybe half damage, maybe.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Let it blast neutrals. Maybe half damage, maybe.




A la holy smite?   If we go that route, we could have the die upgrade to d8s against evil outsiders, also like that spell.


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## freyar (Dec 5, 2008)

Shade said:


> A la holy smite?   If we go that route, we could have the die upgrade to d8s against evil outsiders, also like that spell.



I like that idea.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 5, 2008)

Sounds fine to me too.


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2008)

Updated.

Shall we work on SLAs now?



> Aside from those abilities common to all angels, the Angel of Wrath can at will cast a Continual Light, 5’ radius equal to full daylight, Cure Serious Wounds, Quest, create a double-strength Wall of Fire three times/day and pronounce a Holy Word once/day




See the first post in this thread for common SLAs among angels.

Upthread, we decided to limit the number of SLAs for these fellows and focus more on melee.

Also, Demiurge suggested Empower SLA for the "double-strength" wall of fire.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 5, 2008)

Holy Word 1/day, Empowered Wall of Fire 3/day, continuous light, cure serious wounds and geas/quest at will are unique to the angel of wrath. Let's keep detect evil, remove fear, remove curse and remove disease, and I think we should keep dispel magic as well.

It occurs to me that, in the wake of the Spell Compendium, it'd be very easy to simplify angels by just giving them panacea.


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2008)

Indeed.  Its a shame the SRD didn't keep getting updated, as panacea, revivify, and close wounds are all worthy additions.

Anyway...

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—cure serious wounds, daylight, detect evil, dispel magic, geas/quest, remove curse, remove disease, remove fear; 3/day—empowered wall of fire (DC x); 1/day—holy word (DC x). Caster level xth. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 6, 2008)

Well, the minimum CL for wall of fire to be empowered would be 12th. So CL 13 (equals HD, right?) would work out quite nicely.


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## freyar (Dec 6, 2008)

That list looks pretty good, and so does CL 13.

Maybe I should pick up Spell Compendium sometime.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

Updated.

Suggestions for the golden armor and shield?  AC currently looks like so...

x (+4 Dex, +x natural, +x armor, +x shield), touch x, flat-footed x

Astral devas have AC 29 (+15 natural), while planetars have AC 32 (+19 natural).


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2008)

We should probably aim for a total AC near 30, then.  I'd like the armor and shield to be significant, so probably no more than +10 natural, huh?  Might be nice to give them special properties, too.  Maybe the shield could be blinding or animated.  What do you think?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 8, 2008)

Blinding shield or a lion shield work for me. The armor could be light fortification.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

Ooh, I like the lion's shield idea.  Assuming we go with that, and a target AC of 30, we're looking at ...

x (+4 Dex, +10 natural, +x armor, +4 shield)

That only leaves 2 points for armor.  If we settle for AC 32, we could go with +1 chainmail or +1 banded mail, as the max Dex bonus balances it out.  
Alternatively, we could drop the natural armor to +8, like the Movanic Deva, and go with +1 full plate.  I think this best fits the visual I had of these fellows.

Regardless of the type, I definitely agree with light fortification.

Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 8, 2008)

Agreed to dropping natural armor in order to fit +1 full plate.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

Updated.

Rather than relying on the weapons and armor to be destroyed in the death throes, maybe modify something like this?

Summon Armor (Su): An aurumach rilmani wears no armor, but when threatened by any attack, a semitranslucent suit of golden +4 full plate appears on its body just in time to help defend against the attack and then vanishes immediately after. The appearance of this armor cannot be prevented, but it can be suppressed in an antimagic field. The armor never affects an aurumach's speed, weight carried, or skill checks.

Summon Weapon (Su): An aurumach can be armed in an instant by magically summoning a a golden, Huge +3 halberd. When separated from the aurumach, the weapon vanishes. An aurumach can summon or dispel its own weapon as a free action.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 8, 2008)

I like the idea of the summoned weapon and armor, but not that it doesn't count for ACP and encumberance.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

Agreed to all the above (good idea on the shield and armor!).  Summoned armor is good, though I kind of like the image of these always wearing armor.  Either way works for me.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

I realized that they wouldn't be able to fly in such heavy armor, so here's a writeup to provide an exception for that...

Heavenly Armaments (Su): An angel of wrath can be armed in an instant by magically summoning a suit of golden armor, shield, and sword.  The sword functions as a +3 holy longsword, the shield as a lion's shield, and the armor as a suit of +1 light fortification full plate.  This supernatural armor allows the angel to fly with no penalty.  Upon the angel's death, or when separated from the angel, the weapon, armor, and shield vanishes. An angel of wrath can summon or dispel its own accoutrements as a free action.   

Do we want to give them regeneration like the planetar and solar?  If so, I'd recommend 5, as the planetar is 10 and solar is 15.

Skills: 11 at 16 ranks
Skills common to all angels: Concentration, Diplomacy, Knowledge (any x), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot (and a couple have Balance)
Additional skills common to "greater" angels: Craft (any x), Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Search, Spellcraft

Feats: 5
Feats common to most angels: Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Power Attack
Other feats among angels: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Dodge, Great Fortitude, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Mobility, Track, Weapon Focus (greatsword)


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

I like the armaments.  Yeah, let's do regen 5.

Balance, Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot, Tumble?

Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, and either Weapon Focus (longsword) or Empower SLA (if we need that for the wall of fire).


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

Agreed to regen 5, freyar's skills and feats (with Empower SLA instead of Weapon Focus)


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Updated.

Organization: Solitary, pair, or host (x)?

An angel of wrath is x feet tall and weighs about x pounds.  (No original size was given, so I'm guessing just typical human-sized).

Reduce land speed to account for full plate, or build in a "doesn't effect land speed" clause to heavenly armaments as well?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

Let's let it affect land speed. And a host is 3-8


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

host (10-200)?

5 1/2 to 6 ft, 150-250 lb?

Also doesn't affect land speed.  These are magical creatures with cool armor.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

These look about done!

Do we want to come up with an alternate name along the lines of solar, planetar, or some kind of deva?


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

freyar said:


> Do we want to come up with an alternate name along the lines of solar, planetar, or some kind of deva?




Dunno.  I'm kinda OK with having them be a bit different.  BOZ and I had earmarked the seraphim as "seraphic deva" in our query, but left the rest as "angel of x" or "x angel".  What are your preferences?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

Angel of wrath suits me just fine as a name.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Works for me, just throwing out an option.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Next!

*Type II: The Angel of Healing.* This beautiful winged woman in white robes often appears miraculously in response to the prayers of the sick, the wounded, and the dying. She has the power to, at will, Cure Serious Wounds, Cure Disease, Cure Blindness, Insanity and Paralyzation, Neutralize Poison, Remove Curse, Raise Dead Fully, Create Food and Water, Dispel Evil, Dispel Exhaustion (as the Illusionist spell), Cast Continual Light, 10’ r., and Strength (as the Magic-User spell). Her touch has the ability of Regeneration. If necessary, she fights with a Flaming Sword. Magic resistance is 75%. Armor class 9, moves 15/24 ¼, six dice. 

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #17 (1978).

Here's how BOZ and I pegged 'em in our query...

Angel, Hospitaler (Outsider, CR 8)
Looks like a beautiful winged human in white robes.  Hospitaler angels are sent in response to the prayers of the sick, the wounded, and the dying. A hospitaler angel wields a +2 flaming shortsword.  In addition to the usual angel abilities, a hospitaler angel can lay on hands and remove disease and other negative conditions by touch.  Its spell-like abilities are focused on healing and restoring life.
Originally appeared as "Type II: The Angel of Healing" in Dragon #17, "Messengers of God: Angels in Dungeons and Dragons, Stephen H. Dorneman. 

I was thinking they might function in some ways like the healer class.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

I don't really know the healer class, but it sounds like a start.  Is "Raise Dead Fully" = Resurrection?

They seem to be pretty low CR from a combat focus, even with only 6HD.  That probably puts them near hound archons, but I think I'd swap the physical with mental stats.  So maybe Str 10, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 13?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

More Wis and Cha, I think, but I like those physical stats.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Wis 17, Cha 15 ok?  Or go with 17 for both?


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Basically, the healer class has a bunch of supernatural abilities that duplicate healing spells, such as removing blindness, paralysis, petrification, even regrowing limbs and ressurection at higher levels.

I'll do a basic mockup in Homebrews based on the suggested ability scores shortly.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

I think no natural armor here.  The Dex AC is already enough, plus they get the protective aura.  (I think CR 8 is a bit high for them, too.) 

Are we going with SLAs or Su abilities for the healing?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

A single Su, healing touch, should cover it. Based liberally on panacea, I think.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

That sounds like a good idea.  And to help balance their ability to raise dead with their presumably lower CR, another ability modeled after revivify?


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## freyar (Dec 11, 2008)

I like the sound of it, too.  I'm afraid you'll have to write it since I don't have those spells, though.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 11, 2008)

So they can only raise the dead shortly after they die? Good idea. How about it works up to one round per HD of the angel (so 6 rounds for a standard, right?). There's a spell in the Pathfinder Beta called "breath of life" that's similar--we should check that out for options as well.


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2008)

Here are the pertinent spells...



			
				Panacea said:
			
		

> This spell channels positive energy into a creature to wipe away its afflictions. It immediately ends any of the following conditions affecting the subject: blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, frightened, nauseated, panicked, paralyzed, shaken, sickened, and stunned. It negates sleep effects and the effect of the feeblemind spell, and ends any additional effects from poison, as the neutralize poison spell. It also cures 1d8 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (maximum +20).
> 
> Panacea does not remove ability damage, negative levels, or permanently drained levels.
> 
> Used against an undead creature, panacea deals damage instead of curing the creature (which takes half damage if it makes a Will saving throw), but it has no other effect.






			
				Revivify said:
			
		

> Revivify miraculously restores life to a recently deceased creature. However, the spell must be cast within 1 round of the victim's death. Before the soul of the deceased has completely left the body, this spell halts its journey while repairing somewhat the damage to the body. This spell functions like raise dead (PHB 268), except that the raised creature receives no level loss, no Constitution loss, and no loss of spells. The creature is only restored to -1 hit points (but is stable).






			
				Breath of Life said:
			
		

> This spell cures 5d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +25).
> 
> Unlike other spells that heal damage, breath of life can bring recently slain creatures back to life. If cast upon a creature that has died within 1 round, apply the healing from this spell to the creature. If this healing brings the creature up to –9 or fewer hit points, it comes back to life and stabilizes at its new hit point total. If the healing fails to bring the creature’s hit point total up past –10 hit points, the creature remains dead. Creatures brought back to life through breath of life gain a temporary negative level that lasts for 1 day.
> 
> ...


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2008)

Wow, panacea really is a nice spell!  Yes, let's base one Su on that.  As for the raising one, I'm of a split opinion.  I like the healing aspect of breath of life, but I feel like this angel should be able to beat death effects.  Want to combine the two?


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2008)

Here's a stab at the first ability...

Healing Touch (Su):  With a mere touch, an angel of healing may channel positive energy into a creature to wipe away its afflictions. This immediately ends any of the following conditions affecting the subject: blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, frightened, nauseated, panicked, paralyzed, shaken, sickened, and stunned. It negates sleep effects and the effect of the feeblemind spell, and ends any additional effects from poison, as the neutralize poison spell. It also cures 1d8 points of damage + 1 point per HD of the angel (maximum +20).

Healing touch does not remove ability damage, negative levels, or permanently drained levels.

Used against an undead creature, healing touch deals damage instead of curing the creature (DC X Will save half), but it has no other effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 12, 2008)

That looks good!


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2008)

I think so, too.  Let's add the +X for a typical angel hospitaler.  At will?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 12, 2008)

I think at will. That also scrubs away most of the irritating SLAs.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

Updated.

Here's an attempt at the other ability...

Touch of Life (Su):  X/day, an angel of healing can restore life to a recently deceased creature. To do so, the angel must touch the subject within a number of rounds after the victim's death equal to the angel's HD (6 rounds for a typical angel of healing). Before the soul of the deceased has completely left the body, this spell halts its journey while repairing somewhat the damage to the body. This spell functions like raise dead, except that the raised creature receives no level loss, no Constitution loss, and no loss of spells. The creature is only restored to -1 hit points (but is stable).


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2008)

Looks pretty good.  From the original text, I'd say this is at will.

Still seems to need regenerate as an SLA.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2008)

Looks good, and either at will or 3/day would work.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

Updated.

For the regenerate, we can borrow this...

New Limb (Su): At 15th level, a healer gains the ability to regrow a creature's lost or damaged body part once per day, as if casting a regenerate spell.

Like so?

Touch of Regeneration (Su): At will, with a mere touch, an angel of life can regrow a creature's lost or damaged body part, as if casting a regenerate spell.


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2008)

Looks good! 

+3 natural armor?  I'm looking at about CR 3.

Skills: Max out Concentration?, Diplomacy, Disguise, Heal, Knowledge (religion), Listen, Sense Motive, Spot.  Swap out Concentration if we don't give any actual SLAs.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2008)

CR 3? It can raise the dead! Heal! If a party goes against, say, another party with one of these at its call, they'll be in for a world of hurt. 

Which reminds me. I'd like to request we bump them to 7 HD, just so lesser planar binding/ally can't snare them. With a 9th level wizard having one of these bound, who needs a cleric?


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

Sure, that helps alleviate alot of issues.

Updated.

If you think it might work better, we could make a separate "hospitaler angel" of higher CR with the revivify ability, and remove it from the standard angel of healing.


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2008)

True, though they're not much by themselves, which is what I was thinking.  (Though now I think about it, I guess they can heal themselves infinitely, huh?)  I guess these are kind of like ultimate healers, though.

7HD is reasonable for me.  But what do you think about CR?


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

Setting aside spell-like abilities, they are on par with the movanic deva at CR 9 (although that seems a bit over-CRed).


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2008)

CR 8 maybe?  Could be ok at 7HD.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2008)

CR 8 I like.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

Sounds good.

Do we want to give it any of the usual angel SLAs?

Suggested slam damage?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2008)

Slam damage--1d4? Let's give it aid, continual flame, detect evil, discern lies and holy smite. Holy smite probably only 1/day, but it'll help secure its CR. CL 8th?


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

All at will, or maybe 3/day for holy smite?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2008)

3/day for holy smite, the rest at will.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

Updated.

Upthread, Freyar suggested max ranks in Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Heal, Knowledge (religion), Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot.  I don't really see a need for Disguise, so how about swapping that out for Escape Artist and/or Tumble?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2008)

Angels strike me as pretty stately; Tumble seems mechanically appropriate, but not necessarily flavor-appropriate. I'm more inclined towards Escape Artist.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

Fair enough.  Updated.

Feats: 3
Flyby Attack (more for the standard action than an actual attack), Self-Sufficient, Skill Focus (Heal)?

Another thought...add shield other as a spell-like ability?  It seems to fit their theme rather well.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2008)

Shield other I like! Let's give it Empower SLA (aid) rather than Self-Sufficient.


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2008)

I like what you've done with this.  I also vote for Empower SLA (aid).

Are we going with 3/day or at will for Touch of Life?

I think we need to boost that AC a bit.  Holy grace or whatever it's called that gives +Cha deflection bonus?


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2008)

Sounds good.  Updated.



freyar said:


> Are we going with 3/day or at will for Touch of Life?




What would you guys prefer?



freyar said:


> I think we need to boost that AC a bit.  Holy grace or whatever it's called that gives +Cha deflection bonus?




Yeah, sounds good.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 17, 2008)

3/day for touch of life.


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2008)

Looking pretty good.

Don't have a good name for the organization off-hand, but how about 3-6?

Advancement: 8-10 HD (Medium), 11-21 HD (Large) would fit the patter of the other SRD angels.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

Updated.

Spell resistance 22 like the devas?

Anything else?


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

SR 22 works.

You know, I wonder if UMD would work better than Escape Artist.  Say they are sent to resurrect someone who's been dead a little while and need to use a scroll or staff or something.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

freyar said:


> SR 22 works.
> 
> You know, I wonder if UMD would work better than Escape Artist.  Say they are sent to resurrect someone who's been dead a little while and need to use a scroll or staff or something.




Agreed. UMD sounds good.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

Good suggestion.  Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

Looks good.  Done?


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

I think so.  Next!

*Type III: The Archangel of Mercy.* Appearing as a winged old man in silver robes, this angel is most often found as a guide to those who walk in darkness, a protector of the weak, and a last-minute deliverer from the jaws of evil and death. At will this angel can Cure Serious Wounds, Cure Disease, Remove Curse, Part Water, Find the Path, create a Wall of Fire, Ice, Stone, Iron or Fog, Blade Barrier, Wind Walk, Mass Teleport (up to 10’ radius), and Continual Light, 15‘r.

The Archangel of Mercy is not affected by a Time Stop, and can only be hit by +2 magic weapons or better. He fights with a Sword of Sharpness. Magic resistance without the sword is 85%. Armor class -1, moves 15/30”, twelve dice.

BOZ and I pitched it as...

Angel, Merciful (or Angel of Mercy) (Outsider, CR 15)
Appearing as a winged old man in silver robes, this angel is most often found as a guide to those who walk in darkness, a protector of the weak, and a last-minute deliverer from the jaws of evil and death. It wields a +4 merciful longsword.  In addition to the usual angel abilities, an angel of mercy can choose to deal nonlethal damage with any of its spells or spell-like abilities.  It casts spells as a 14th-level cleric.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

Interesting.  Should we bump the HD to go with the higher CR and casting?  Say 14 or 15 HD?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

Sounds good to me. How will we handle the sword of sharpness? I mean, I'm all for severing limbs, but that's not industry standard these days.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

BOZ and I thought that a merciful weapon made more sense in this case.

However, if you want to go the other route, we've used a sharpness mechanic on at least one creature before, although I'm currently at a loss...


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 19, 2008)

Yeah, "mercy" and "slicing off limbs, leaving enemies permanently crippled" don't really go together.


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2008)

I think it was the Fenris wolf (maybe among others) that had the severing mechanic, but I agree that the merciful weapon idea is more thematically appropriate.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

So, 14 HD?

It falls between an astral deva and planetar on the CR scale.
Astral Deva abilities: Str 22, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 20
Planetar abilities: Str 25, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 22, Wis 23, Cha 22

Since this fellow seems very SLA-heavy, how about...

Str 23, Dex 19, Con 19, Int 20, Wis 22, Cha 22?

Do you want to use our suggestion of casting divine spells as a 14th-level cleric?


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## freyar (Dec 23, 2008)

Abilities seem reasonable at 14HD.  The HD/CR seems kind of borderline for cleric casting (angel of wrath didn't get it, I think, at 13HD), but I could go for 14th level casting, sure.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Dec 23, 2008)

> At will this angel can Cure Serious Wounds, Cure Disease, Remove Curse, Part Water, Find the Path, create a Wall of Fire, Ice, Stone, Iron or Fog, Blade Barrier, Wind Walk, Mass Teleport (up to 10’ radius), and Continual Light, 15‘r.




Want to just port these over as SLAs?  If so, maybe we should switch part water to an Su (or drop it if these already have enough).  Would continual light be light or continual flame?


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Per the conversion guide, continual light = daylight.

How about this?

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—cure serious wounds, daylight, greater teleport, remove curse, remove disease, wall of fire, wall of ice, wall of stone; 3/day—blade barrier, wind walk; 1/day—x. Caster level 14th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

I don't think we really need part water, as it can simply greater teleport stranded victims across the water.

Also, rather than give it a merciful weapon, how about this?

Mercy (Su):  An angel of mercy may choose to deal nonlethal damage with any of its natural attacks, weapon attacks, spells, or spell-like abilities at no penalty or increase in spell level or casting time.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

Agreed to mercy being applicable to SLAs.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

To go along with the mercy theme, I'd recommend atonement as an SLA.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

Good idea. 1/day?


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Sure.  Updated.

We should probably also add discern lies and maybe detect thoughts so it can know for fact that someone who repents intends to make good on their claims.

Skills: 13 at 17 ranks
Concentration, Diplomacy, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Use Magic Device?

Feats: 5
Probably some metamagic due to the good spellcasting?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

Extend Spell is a good choice for clerics. Also Flyby Attack, Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Improved Counterspell?


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Those appeal to me.   Updated.

Shall we work on the spell list (keeping in mind Extend Spell)?

Spells: Angels of mercy can cast divine spells as 14th-level clerics. An angel of mercy has access to two of the following domains: Air, Destruction, Good, Law, or War (plus any others from its deity). The save DCs are Wisdom-based.

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/7/7/5/5/4/4/2; save DC 16 + spell level): 0—x; 1st—x; 2nd—x; 3rd—x; 4th—x; 5th—x; 6th—x; 7th—x. 
*Domain spell. Domains: Destruction and Good.

*Edit: * Perhaps we should change those domains to include Protection and Travel?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

Protection and Travel sound much better than Destruction and War. Or perhaps the Community or Nobility domains from the SRD?


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## freyar (Dec 24, 2008)

Guess I was the only one busy at work today. 

I prefer Travel and Community to Destruction and War.  I also think I like Protection better than Air.


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## Shade (Dec 24, 2008)

Sounds good.  So...

Spells: Angels of mercy can cast divine spells as 14th-level clerics. An angel of mercy has access to two of the following domains: Community, Good, Nobility, Protection, or Travel (plus any others from its deity). The save DCs are Wisdom-based.

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/7/7/5/5/4/4/2; save DC 16 + spell level): 0—x; 1st—x; 2nd—x; 3rd—x; 4th—x; 5th—x; 6th—x; 7th—x. 
*Domain spell. Domains: x and x.


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## Shade (Dec 26, 2008)

How's this?

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/7/7/5/5/4/4/2; save DC 16 + spell level): 0—create water, detect magic, guidance, purify food and drink, resistance, virtue; 1st—bless (2), divine favor*, endure elements (2), sanctuary, shield of faith (2); 2nd—aid, align weapon, bear's endurance, bull's strength, lesser restoration, make whole, shield other, status*; 3rd—continual flame, create food and water, daylight, magic vestment*, prayer, searing light; 4th—control water, death ward, freedom of movement, greater status*, imbue with spell ability, spell immunity; 5th—flame strike (2), greater command*, righteous might, spell resistance; 6th—blade barrier (2), find the path, heroes’ feast*, mass bear's endurance; 7th—control weather, holy word, refuge*. 
*Domain spell. Domains: Community and Nobility.


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## freyar (Dec 27, 2008)

Wow, looks good to me!  You've really hit the theme of this, I think.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 27, 2008)

Let's replace daylight with an extended spiritual weapon and imbue with spell ability with extended prayer


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## freyar (Dec 27, 2008)

Sounds fair enough.


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## Shade (Dec 30, 2008)

Sounds good.  Updated.

Armor Class: x (+4 Dex, +x natural), touch x, flat-footed x   (astral deva has +15 natural, planetar +19)

Regeneration 10?  (like planetar?)

Spell resistance 30?  (like astral deva and planetar?)

Organization: Solitary, pair, or host (3-x)


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## freyar (Dec 30, 2008)

+17 natural?

Let's do regen 5.

SR is good.

host (3-12)?

Throwing out ideas for tactics: usually hold back to protect their charge, using SLAs until forced into melee?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 30, 2008)

Agreed to all of the above.


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## Shade (Dec 30, 2008)

Updated.

Anything left?


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## freyar (Dec 30, 2008)

I don't see anything missing!  We're really wrapping things up today!


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

*Type IV: The Seraphim.*  The Seraphim acts as the right hand of God, and so appearances on the Earth by this angel are truly rare and momentous occasions. Appearing as a ten foot tall extremely beautiful winged humanoid of indeterminate age and sex, a Seraphim can, at will, Cure Serious Wounds, Cure Disease, Remove Curse, Restoration, Raise Dead fully, Dispel Evil, Quest, generate a triple-strength Wall of Fire, Blade Barrier, Earthquake, Insect Plague, cast Continual Light, 20’r. of varying intensity (from Faerie Fire to Binding), Improved Invisibility (as the Illusionist spell), use a Holy Word once/day, use any Symbol once/day, and once a day can call down the Wrath of God (a double-strength Meteor Swarm). A Seraphim cannot be Time Stopped, Charmed, Held, or rendered stunned or unconscious by any means. A Seraphim can call to its aid 2-16 Type I, 1-4 Type II and 1-6 Type III angels. He/she fights with a Vorpal Blade, and has a base 95% resistance to magic. Armor class -3, can only be hit by +3 magic weapons, moves 24/48", 16 dice.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #17 (1978).

BOZ and I pitched it as...

Angel, Seraphic Deva (Outsider, CR 17)
Appears as a ten foot tall extremely beautiful winged humanoid of indeterminate age and sex.  The most powerful of the devas, seraphic devas are tasked with watching over the Lower Planes, rescuing good planar travelers who inadvertently end up there and monitoring the travel of evil outsiders into border planes.  A seraphic deva Wields a +3 greatsword which functions as a vorpal weapon against evil creatures only.  In addition to the usual angel abilities, a seraphic deva is immune to the detrimental effects of mildly and strongly evil-aligned planes.


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## Echohawk (Jan 6, 2009)

Just to note that there is also a Seraphim in Dragon #35, which is similar in theme, but differs somewhat in stats. If that one is going to be converted separately, it might make sense to decide on naming conventions for the two types up front.


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Echohawk said:


> Just to note that there is also a Seraphim in Dragon #35, which is similar in theme, but differs somewhat in stats. If that one is going to be converted separately, it might make sense to decide on naming conventions for the two types up front.




Agreed.  Since only four of the Seraphim in Dragon #35 are known to exist, and they appear to be epic, I'd rather let them retain the name, and go with the seraphic deva for these "lesser" fellows.  Thoughts?


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## Echohawk (Jan 6, 2009)

That works for me, although treating them separately does mean the number of unconverted critters goes up by one. Two, including that sneaky fake undine.


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

That's OK...the heavenly forces are severely understaffed compared to their fiendish counterparts.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

Wow. Look at that spell resistance!


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Indeed!

So are you guys OK with the super-deva concept?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

I'm in agreement.


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Movanic Deva: Str 17, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 16, Cha 18
Monadic Deva: Str 20, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 19
Astral Deva: Str 22, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 20
Planetar: Str 25, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 22, Wis 23, Cha 22
Solar: Str 28, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 23, Wis 25, Cha 25

These guys are targeted a CR higher than a planetar.

Str 26, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 22, Wis 22, Cha 24?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

Those ability scores appeal.


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Give it uncanny dodge like the two greater devas?

How does this look?

Divine Resilience (Ex):  Seraphic devas are immune to the detrimental effects of mildly and strongly evil-aligned planes.


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## freyar (Jan 6, 2009)

I like all that!  Wow, quite a bit there...


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

Uncanny dodge and Divine Resiliance both look good.


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

> a Seraphim can, at will, Cure Serious Wounds, Cure Disease, Remove Curse, Restoration, Raise Dead fully, Dispel Evil, Quest, generate a triple-strength Wall of Fire, Blade Barrier, Earthquake, Insect Plague, cast Continual Light, 20’r. of varying intensity (from Faerie Fire to Binding), Improved Invisibility (as the Illusionist spell), use a Holy Word once/day, use any Symbol once/day, and once a day can call down the Wrath of God (a double-strength Meteor Swarm).




Wrath of God sounds fun.  

Common Spell-like Abilities Among Angels

aid - all but planetar
commune - monadic and movanic devas, solar
continual flame - all
cure X wounds - all devas
detect evil - all
discern lies - all
dispel magic or greater dispel magic - all but movanic deva
heal - astral deva, solar
holy smite - all
plane shift - all devas
raise dead - all except astral deva and solar (solar has ressurection, though)
remove curse - all
remove disease - all
remove fear - all

Since these fellows are venturing into the Lower Planes, we might focus on more anti-fiend SLAs.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

How about making wrath of god a unique SLA/SP, reducing its dependance on meteor swarm and changing/mixing the damage type to/with divine (since fiends have resistance/immunity to fire). For example:

Cross Blast (Su): Once every 1d4+1 rounds, Sachiel may fire a massive blast of divine energy from the palms of his hands. This blast takes the form of a line 500 feet long and 20 feet wide, except that 100 foot long, 20 foot wide lines extend 100 feet from the end of the blast. Everything in the area takes 15d6 points of both fire and divine damage (Reflex DC 65 half).

Agreed to increasing the anti-fiend SLAs. Banishment makes sense, but is somewhat redundant with holy word. Dispel evil would also be appropriate.


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2009)

Agreed to switching to divine for wrath of god.

Also agreed to anti-fiend SLAs.


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2009)

An excellent suggestion.  In fact, I think all its fiery SLAs should do partial divine damage, since most fiends resist or are immune to fire.

Here's a stab at it...

Wrath of God (Su):  Once per day, a seraphic deva can channel the divine power of its deity into a spectacular offensive display.  

When called, four 2-foot-diameter spheres spring from the seraphic deva's outstretched hand and streak in straight lines to the spots it selects. The spheres leave a sparkling trail of pure light.

If a sphere is aimed at a specific creature, the deva may make a ranged touch attack to strike the target with the sphere. Any creature struck by one of these spheres takes 4d6 points of bludgeoning damage (no save) and receives no saving throw against the sphere’s divine damage (see below). If a targeted sphere misses its target, it simply explodes at the nearest corner of the target’s space. You may aim more than one sphere at the same target.

Once a sphere reaches its destination, it explodes in a 40-foot-radius spread, dealing 12d6 points of divine damage to each creature in the area (Reflex DC X half). If a creature is within the area of more than one sphere, it must save separately against each.  This effect has the good descriptor.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2009)

I like that!

From the list above, the following seem like good SLAs to list (based partly on original monster): aid, commune, continual flame, cure serious wounds, remove disease, remove curse, dispel evil, detect evil, resurrection, plane shift, heal, holy word, holy smite, discern lies, greater dispel magic, greater invisibility, blade barrier, earthquake, insect plague.  And would holy aura be out of line?

This does add some to the original text, so we can drop some if that's too many.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 7, 2009)

Those SLAs and the wrath of god all look pretty good.


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2009)

How does this look?

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—aid, continual flame, commune, cure serious wounds, detect evil,  discern lies, dispel evil (DC x), greater dispel magic, holy aura (DC x), holy smite (DC x), holy word (DC x), invisibility (self only), plane shift, remove curse (DC x), remove disease (DC x), remove fear (DC x); 3/day—blade barrier, heal; 1/day—earthquake, insect plague, resurrection. Caster level 16th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

And this, to replace the triple-strength wall of fire...

Wall of Holy Power (Sp):  x/day, a seraphic deva can call forth an immobile curtain of shimmering white light. This wall can be created anywhere within 260 feet.  It can be formed into either a curtain up to 320 feet long or a ring with a radius up to 40 feet.  In either form, the wall is 20 feet high.  The wall deals 6d6+16 points of divine damage to any evil creature passing through it. The wall deals double damage to evil outsiders.  If the wall appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall.  The wall remains for as long as the deva concentrates plus 16 rounds thereafter.  This is the equivalent of a 5th-level spell (caster level 16th).


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2009)

Actually, comparing to the others, it looks like invisibility at will instead of greater invisibility makes sense.  So... 

At will - aid, continual flame, cure serious wounds, dispel evil, detect evil, holy smite, discern lies, greater dispel magic, invisibility (self-only), remove disease, remove curse
3/day - commune, plane shift, heal, holy word
1/day - resurrection, holy aura, blade barrier, earthquake, insect plague

Or do you want to shuffle these a little?  What do we think about restoration (greater or lesser)?


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2009)

See my post above yours.


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2009)

Oops, missed that.   Your list looks good.


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

> A Seraphim cannot be Time Stopped, Charmed, Held, or rendered stunned or unconscious by any means.




Now that's a strange mix of immunities!  Do we want to simplify it to immunity to mind-affecting spells and abilities and stunning?



> A Seraphim can call to its aid 2-16 Type I, 1-4 Type II and 1-6 Type III angels.




That would be angels of wrath, healing, and mercy.   Those numbers might be a bit high, though, in 3.5 terms.  We could also have them summon lesser devas instead/also.  Thoughts?



> He/she fights with a Vorpal Blade




BOZ and I pitched it as its greatsword functions as a vorpal weapon against evil creatures only.  That seems more "good" than lopping off the heads of neutrals and friendlies.


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2009)

Let's simplify the immunities, yes.

I think we should include astral devas for people who only want 1 non-core monster.  But we could give an option for a couple of those other angels or lesser devas, sure.

I like the selective vorpal!


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

We could give it Spell Stowaway (time stop) as a bonus feat.


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

That's a fun idea...let's go with that.  

Here's a draft of the other abilities...

Summon Angels (Sp): Once per day, a seraphic deva can automatically summon 1d8 angels of healing, 1d8 movanic devas, 1d4 angels of wrath, 1d4 monadic devas, 1 angel of mercy, or 1 astral deva. This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell.

Fiendish Heads Will Roll (Su):  Any slashing weapon wielded by a seraphic deva is treated as a vorpal weapon when used against evil creatures.


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2009)

Ok, that's all excellent!  (And a fun feat, I've never noticed that one before.)


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

Love Spell Stowaway. Gave it to Kyuss for time stop in the last battle of Age of Worms... that was an unpleasant surprise.

Anyway, the summoning looks good! Should we put sources on the non-core angels?


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

I put sources for the Fiend Folio devas, and will try to link to the other new angels once I add them to the CC.

Updated.

Skills: 14 at 19 ranks
Concentration, Diplomacy, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot...

Feats: Spell Stowaway (time stop)(B), 6 more
Improved Critical (greatsword) seems good to me, as do the common angel feats of Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, and Power Attack


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (arcana)...

Empower SLA (holy smite) for the 6th feat?


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

All sounds good.

2 skills left...Heal and Escape Artist?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

Those sound good. Maybe Gather Information rather than Escape Artist.


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

Sounds good.

Natural armor +20?  Astral deva is +15, planetar is +19, and solar is +21.  These fellas fall between planetar and solar on CR scale, and lack the spells to boost their AC higher.

Damage reduction 15/evil?  Planetar is 10/evil, while solar is 15/epic and evil.

Regen 10 (like planetar)?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

All of your suggestions are reasoned and I agree with them.


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

Updated.

Does CR 17 still seam reasonable?

If so, 95% spell resistance equals CR+20, or 37 in this case.  

Organization: Solitary, pair, or host (1-2 seraphic devas plus x-x lesser angels of any kind)?

Advancement: 17-32 HD (Large); 33-48 HD (Huge)?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

SR is... whew. CR 17 looks about right. X = 2-8 lesser angels?


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Wow.  I like all of that.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

A seraphic deva is 10 feet tall and weighs 600 pounds?  (A planetar is 9' and 500 lbs.)


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Sounds about right.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

Sounds about right.

Edit: Jinx!


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Updated.

Ready for the next one?


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Sure!


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

What have we got this time?


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Since we finished one issue's worth of angels, let's move on to the next...

*The Celestial Hierarchy*
There are many different lists giving from seven to twelve orders of angels. Such lists seem to have been popular, as they can be found in sources as old as the Zohar (Exodus 43A), St. Thomas Aquinas; Summa Theologica, the Mishne Torah, and Dante’s Inferno. Most lists contain similar groups with the order varying greatly after the first two types, Seraphim and then Cherubim, are listed. Aquinas; list is included here:
1. Seraphim; 2. Cherubim; 3. Thrones; 4. Dominations; 5. Virtues; 6. Powers; 7. Principalities; 8. Archangels; 9. Angels.

Each order of Angels differs in their areas of duties and abilities. Some, such as the Seraphim, are extremely unlikely to have any interaction with normal mortals. All Angels have the following abilities, which they can use as often as desired: Bless (double strength +2, lasts until removed); Detect Evil; Remove Fear; Know Alignment; Remove Curse; Dispel Magic; Exorcise; Protection from Evil 20’ radius; Shapechange.

Angels in combat are subject to the same vulnerabilities as Devils (fallen angels, after all) in the Monster Manual. Few Angels will have any treasure in human terms, but an angel may be guarding a special artifact or holy place. Angels speak all the languages of men fluently.

*The Seraphim*
The original ruling prince of the Seraphim was Satan. His place was taken by Michael (also called Seraphiel). It is the duty of the Seraphim to surround the Throne of the Supreme Deity, intoning constantly his praise. In 3 Enoch there is said to be only four Seraphim.

Frequency: Never on the material planes, otherwise very rare.
Number: 1 (all four being found only at the throne)
Armor Class: -7
Move: 12/24
H.D.: 199 Hit Points
Number of Attacks: 1
Damage: 4-14
Special Attacks: listed below
Special Defenses: +3 or better to hit
Magic Resistance: 90%
Intelligence: Genius
Alignment: Lawful Good (of course)
Size: Varies, as they desire

The Seraphim are the Elite of the Heavenly Hosts. They have available to them all Miracles (all clerical spells). They may use one per melee round and each one as often as desired. Seraphim often take on the form of a fiery serpent when smiting the forces of Evil. Also known as the Angels of love, light, and fire.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #35 (1980).


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

These guys appear to be archangels in every sense of the word.  (Ironically, the same issue includes "archangels" which have only 11 HD!)

Using the "divide by 4.5" rule, they have 44 Hit Dice.

Only four are known to exist.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

Shade said:


> These guys appear to be archangels in every sense of the word.  (Ironically, the same issue includes "archangels" which have only 11 HD!)



This is because "archangel" is incorrectly used in common parlance. Archangels are above angels in the hierarchy, but there's a lot above them. 

44 HD seems about right.

Wikipedia has some things to say about seraphim to keep in mind--fire, purification, charity, six wings.


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

How about "epic" in every sense of the word?   I'm up for 44HD, too.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Ooh...I definitely like the six-arms.  Take that, mariliths!

Solar ability scores:  Str 28, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 23, Wis 25, Cha 25

Infernal (40 HD fiend) ability scores:  Str 43, Dex 25, Con 28, Int 22, Wis 26, Cha 29

Suggestions?


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Well, let's see:

Str 40, Dex 25, Con 30, Int 28, Wis 31, Cha 31?  Or something?  I think Wis/Cha needs to be high for the spells/SLAs.

Speaking of that, should we use the spell mastery bit we did for Monkey since these can cast all clerical spells?


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

For comparison purposes, here are the ability scores of Zaphkiel, the greatest of the celestial paragons:

Str 40, Dex 23, Con 30, Int 30, Wis 30, Cha 34

Your recommendations are very similar, which is probably about right since these fellows are essentially the "angel paragons", and angels are generally a tad better than the other celestial races.

Good call on spell mastery!


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Let's boost either Wis or Cha (whichever affects the spell DCs for the spell mastery ability) by +2 maybe.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

Should we specify that they can cast all clerical spells from the SRD, barring spells of an opposed alignment, or all clerical spells? I sort of like the idea that they can only cast clerical spells from non-core sources 1/day, as these are "rarer prayers".


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

I like the "rarer prayer" concept.  

Maybe also give 'em access to the Fire, Glory, and Sun domain spells?

Since most angels wield weapons, how about giving them holy power greatswords?  Better yet, give 'em magic greatswords, and have any weapon they wield be treated as holy power weapons.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

All of that sounds good!


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## freyar (Jan 12, 2009)

Agreed!


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2009)

I had a few thoughts about these fellows over the weekend.

First, do we want to have them wield two greatswords among four arms, leaving the other two for other things?   Or follow the marilith example of one one-hander per arm?

How about this ability?

Localized Omniscience (Su):  Seraphim continuously use arcane sight, detect thoughts, discern lies, and true seeing as the spells (caster level 20th), except all function to a range of 120 feet.

Summarizing one of the other abilities:

Holy Power (Su):  Any melee weapon wielded by a seraphim is trated as a holy power weapon.  When a weapon of holy power strikes an evil target, this power erupts forth and deals +3d6 points of bonus holy (good) damage to the target, and the target gains one negative level (Fortitude DC X to remove 24 hours later). On a successful critical hit it instead deals +6d6 points of holy (good) damage and bestows two negative levels (or +9d6 and three negative levels if the critical multiplier is x3, or +12d6 and four negative levels if the critical multiplier is x4). The save DC is Charisma-based.

Here is the master of magic ability we gave Monkey...

Master of Magic (Sp): At will, Monkey may use any arcane or divine spell from any spell list as a spell-like ability, with the following exceptions: limited wish, miracle, wish, spells that allow planar travel, and conjuration spells with the calling or summoning descriptors. The saving throw DC for such abilities is 17 + spell level (10 + spell level + Monkey's Charisma bonus).


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 12, 2009)

I like having two greatswords.


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## freyar (Jan 12, 2009)

Two greatswords work, and I like the other abilities.  Here's a revision on Master of Magic.  Should we use Wisdom as the spellcasting stat?

Divine Magic (Sp): At will, a seraphim may use any core divine spell from the cleric spell list or the Fire, Glory, or Sun domains as a spell-like ability, as long as it is not opposed in alignment. A seraphim may use any noncore spell on the cleric spell list once per day; these spells are rarer in the cosmos.  The saving throw DC for such abilities is X + spell level (10 + spell level + seraphim's Wisdom? bonus).


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Shall we give them a burn/flame shield like ability that deals half divine damage, symbolizing them being limned in holy fire?


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## freyar (Jan 12, 2009)

A flame shield kind of ability appeals to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 12, 2009)

Agreed to a divine fire shield.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2009)

Here's a try...

Divine Flames (Su):  A seraph is limned in smokeless fire.  Any creature striking the seraph with its body or a handheld weapon deals normal damage, but suffers xd6 points of damage.   Half the damage is fire damage, but the other half results directly from divine power and is therefore not subject to being reduced by resistance to fire-based attacks.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 13, 2009)

2d6, let's say? Or 1d6+ caster level? Like a protective aura, it might count as an Xth level spell and be able to be dispelled, but the seraphim could renew it as a free action on its turn.


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## freyar (Jan 13, 2009)

2d6 + CL and I'm happy.  I'd be happy to make it Sp like protective aura with the same conditions.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2009)

Revising...

Divine Flames (Su): A seraph is limned in smokeless fire. Any creature striking the seraph with its body or a handheld weapon deals normal damage, but suffers 2d6 points of damage +1 point per caster level (2d6+44 for a typical seraph). Half the damage is fire damage, but the other half results directly from divine power and is therefore not subject to being reduced by resistance to fire-based attacks.  These divine flames can be dispelled (as if they were a 5th-level spell), but the angel can create them again as a free action on its next turn.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 13, 2009)

Does its CL = HD? I'd rather it equalled CR--which is still going to be roughly 30.


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## freyar (Jan 13, 2009)

CL can be whatever we want, really.  I guess I'd been anticipating 20-ish.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2009)

Yeah, it's open to whatever we'd like.

The somewhat comparable infernal is CR 26, so yeah, probably upper 20s, low 30s for CR.

Shall we work on the regular SLAs now?

Common Spell-like Abilities Among Angels
aid - all but planetar
commune - monadic and movanic devas, solar
continual flame - all
cure X wounds - all devas
detect evil - all
discern lies - all
dispel magic or greater dispel magic - all but movanic deva
heal - astral deva, solar
holy smite - all
plane shift - all devas
polymorph - all
raise dead - all except astral deva and solar (solar has ressurection, though)
remove curse - all
remove disease - all
remove fear - all

"Greater Angels" (solar and planetar) Only:
earthquake 
greater restoration 
lesser restoration 
mass charm monster 
power word stun 
waves of exhaustion 
waves of fatigue 

Always active on "greater angels": detect evil, detect snares and pits, discern lies, see invisibility, and true seeing. They can be dispelled, but the angel can reactivate them as a free action.

We've got the last bit already covered in the localized omniscience, although we should probably add detect evil and detect snares and pits to it.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 13, 2009)

Having both lesser and greater restoration as SLAs seems weird.

It also seems weird to pick out SLAs from the clerical spell list when it can cast them all at will. Shouldn't we just concentrate on arcane spells for SLAs?


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2009)

Agreed.


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## Shade (Jan 14, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> It also seems weird to pick out SLAs from the clerical spell list when it can cast them all at will. Shouldn't we just concentrate on arcane spells for SLAs?




Good point.  That would be redundant.  

Anything from the wizard list (that isn't in the Fire, Glory, or Sun domains) you'd consider must-have?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 14, 2009)

Well, not from the wizard list specifically, but holy smite is only in the Good domain (weird, I know). We might want to list somewhere the spells that they favor (traditional angelic fare--blade barrier, holy word, holy aura).


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## Shade (Jan 14, 2009)

Good idea.   Maybe add Good to list of domains from which they can draw SLAs for simplicity's sake?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 14, 2009)

Sounds good to me.


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2009)

Works here too.  So are there any other SLAs these should have?


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2009)

I'm not sure that they need any other SLAs, but perhaps a summon angels ability like we gave the seraphic deva?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 15, 2009)

Agreed to summon angels.


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2009)

I don't really see a need for any arcane-only SLAs either.

Summon angels makes a great deal of sense.  And they should get a lot.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

Rather than list out specific amounts of each type of angel, what about allowing them to summon a total number of Hit Dice of angels equal to their own Hit Dice total?

In other words, it could call 2 solars.  Or it could call one solar, one astral deva, and one monadic deva.  This would allow for all the non-core angels, without us having to list substitituions and whatnot.  Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

Agreed. It makes the accounting easier. I think, however, that we should give your examples in the text.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

Good idea.   Updated.

+5 greatswords?

Damage reduction 20/epic and evil?

Regeneration 20?


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2009)

Yes, yes, yes.  In particular, I don't think the weapons need to be any fancier due to Holy Power.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

Updated.

Target AC?

Slam damage?   Infernals deal 4d6 with their claws, despite being only Large.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

Target AC should be in the mid-40s, I think.

4d6 for the slams sounds a bit much--they are weapon users, after all. 2d6, maybe?


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

Solars and planetars are 2d8 for slam attacks, so at least that good.


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2009)

Either 2d8 or 3d6?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

I'll go for 2d8.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

Solar has +21 natural.  Infernal has +34 natural.  Maybe +30 for seraph, giving it a total AC of 45?

Skills: 18 at 47 ranks

Skills common to all angels:
Concentration, Diplomacy, Knowledge (any x), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot (and a couple have Balance)

Additional skills common to "greater" angels:
Craft (any x), Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Search, Spellcraft

Feats: Multiweapon Fighting, 14 more (8 can be epic)

Feats common to most angels:
Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Power Attack

Other feats among angels:
Alertness, Blind-Fight, Dodge, Great Fortitude, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Mobility, Track, Weapon Focus (greatsword)


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 20, 2009)

If they only use two greatswords, they need TWF, not MWF. Remember the penalties for wielding non-light weapons. Unless we want to give them a "fights with no penalty" thing like a marilith.

Two weapon Fighting, Improved Two weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise, Superior Combat Expertise, Quicken SLA (heal), Empower SLA (blade barrier, fire storm), Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Cleave, Great Cleave, Imp. Crit (greatsword), Overwhelming Critical (greatsword), Devestating Critical (greatsword)


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> If they only use two greatswords, they need TWF, not MWF. Remember the penalties for wielding non-light weapons. Unless we want to give them a "fights with no penalty" thing like a marilith.




I think the key, though, is that they possess more than two arms...



			
				Multiweapon Fighting feat said:
			
		

> Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.




That way, they _could_ fight with four longswords if they prefer.

And yeah, I did sneak in the marilith bit in Homebrews preemptively.  


The other feats look good!


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## freyar (Jan 21, 2009)

Agreed to feats.

All the skills listed (maybe minus Craft?) with Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Tumble, Heal, one more?


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## Shade (Jan 22, 2009)

So...

Max ranks in: Balance, Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Tumble, Use Magic Device

Feats: Cleave, Combat Expertise, Devastating Critical (greatsword), Empower Spell-Like Ability (blade barrier, fire storm), Great Cleave, Greater Multiweapon Fighting*, Improved Critical (greatsword), Improved Multiweapon Fighting*, Multiweapon Fighting, Overwhelming Critical (greatsword), Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (heal), Superior Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (greatsword)

*These are not core feats.  However, I propose we simpy modifiy the special feats note (like the marilith) to indicate that these feats replace the Two-Weapon Fighting feats for creatures with mulitple arms.

If we boosted its Dex by 2, we could give it the Perfect Multiweapon Fighting feat, which is core.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 22, 2009)

Hm... that's weird that Multiweapon Fighting skips a few steps. I'm all for boosting its Dex a bit.


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## Shade (Jan 22, 2009)

My mistake.  d20srd.org shows both Greater and Improved Multiweapon Fighting.


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## freyar (Jan 22, 2009)

Well, I think this looks pretty good.  Want to boost Dex and swap in Perfect Multiweapon Fighting, or are all the feat prereqs too tight?


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2009)

We could swap it for one of the two Empowered SLAs.


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2009)

Maybe blade barrier, but I'm kind of ambivalent.  I guess with the multi-greatswords, these should be a little more melee oriented.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 23, 2009)

Let's drop Empowered Fire Storm. It does take a full round to cast, after all.


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2009)

Sure, that's fine, too. So keep empowered blade barrier...


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2009)

Updated.


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## Shade (Jan 27, 2009)

Organization: Solitary, pair, or host (3-4 plus up to 44 HD of lesser angels)?

Challenge Rating: 26 (like the infernal)?

Advancement: x

A seraph is x feet tall and weighs x pounds.  (Solars and planetars are both 9 foot and 500 pounds)


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 28, 2009)

It's got less HP and a worse summoning than an infernal, equal AC (when we count the protective aura), but can do a ton more damage in melee and has superior spell firepower. I'm on the fence between CR 26 and 27.

I see these guys as towering over the solars. 12 feet, let's say? How much does a stone giant weigh? 1500 pounds? Then again, they are made of stone...


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2009)

Stone giants are 1,500 pounds, which doesn't seem excessive for their size (compared to other giants, like the really heavy fire giants), so I think that will work.

Let's lean towards CR 27 for the sheer versatility of their SLAs.

SR 40?   Angels don't have a specific formula for spell resistance, but often skew higher than average.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 28, 2009)

SR 40 sounds fine.


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2009)

Advancement: 45-66 HD (Huge), 67-72 HD (Gargantuan)?

That follows the solar size progression, and the infernal's max HD.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 28, 2009)

Sure!


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2009)

Updated.

While adding flavor text, I found something we missed:



> Seraphim often take on the form of a fiery serpent when smiting the forces of Evil.




Do we want to do anything with that?


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2009)

It would seem inefficient for dual-wielding greatswords.   I'm not sure, maybe some intimidating illusion effect?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 28, 2009)

Make the serpent a manifestation of an aura of terror? Will save or evil creatures cower for X rounds, save for shaken for 1? Most things by that level will have some manner of protection from fear, but it's cool.


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## freyar (Jan 29, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Make the serpent a manifestation of an aura of terror? Will save or evil creatures cower for X rounds, save for shaken for 1? Most things by that level will have some manner of protection from fear, but it's cool.



That nicely encapsulates what I was thinking, only you said it better.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

I like it.  Also, taking that sentence literally, we might consider giving them smite evil.

In fact, I find it odd that all angels don't have smite evil, especially considering that half-celestials and celestial creatures get it.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 30, 2009)

Yeah, smite evil sounds completely reasonable.


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2009)

Absolutely.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

Do these look OK?

Holy Terror (Su):  Evil creatures viewing a seraph for the first must succeed on a DC X Will save or cower for 1d6 rounds, as the seraph appears as a great flaming serpent.  Even on a successful save, an evil creature is shaken for 1 round.  After that, a creature that succeeds on its Will save remains immune to that seraph's holy terror for 24 hours.  This is a mind-affecting fear effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

Smite Evil (Su): Once per day a seraph can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its Hit Dice against an evil foe.


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2009)

Looks good!  What else do these need?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 30, 2009)

I'd drop the "after that", but other than that, looks good.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

Updated.

I think we're done!


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2009)

Looks great!


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 30, 2009)

Whew. That was a doozy. I'm guessing cherubim are next?


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

Yes on both counts.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

*The Cherubim*
The Cherubim are the first angels to be mentioned in the Bible (Genesis 3:22), guarding with a flaming sword the tree of Life in Eden. Their griffin-like form is often used in early Hebrew religious sculpture. They are the “flame of whirling swords” and are the guardians and protectors of Good’s greatest treasures.

The Ruling Princes of the Cherubim are: Gabriel, Cherubiel, Ophaniel, Raphael, Uriel, Zophiel (and originally Satan).

Frequency: Very rare
Number: 1
Armor class: -5
Move: 12/30
H.D.: 166 Hit Points
Number of Attacks: 1
Damage: With fiery sword, 12-34 (10 + 2d12)
Special Attacks: Listed below
Special Defenses: +3 or better to hit
Magic resistance: 85%
Intelligence: Genius
Alignment: Lawful Good
Size: Large (12’ tall)

A Cherubim is likely only to be encountered if a character is attempting to gain some item or piece of knowledge guarded by one.

Cherubim have the following specia1 abilities, which they will employ to protect their trust Each of these powers may be used as often as desired, one per melee round: Wall of Fire, Flamestrike, Blade Barrier, Glyph of Warding, and Lightning Bolt (10 dice).

Divide by 4.5 rule yields 36 HD.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 12, 2009)

The cherubim have four faces, one facing every 90 degrees--a lion, an eagle, an ox and a human face. 

Cherub - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

I'm suddenly thinking of Omnicron's assistants in the (animated) Transformers movie.  

Solar has Str 28, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 23, Wis 25, Cha 25

We gave the seraph Str 40, Dex 25, Con 30, Int 30, Wis 32, Cha 34

We may still have a few more angels between the two in hierarchy yet to convert.

So maybe shave 2-4 points of each ability score (except maybe Dex)?


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## GrayLinnorm (Feb 12, 2009)

If they have four faces, they should probably have all-around vision.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

Good point!


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 13, 2009)

Shade's ability score suggestions work for me.


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2009)

It all sounds good here, too.


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Since the "fiery sword" figures prominently, how about giving them the epic weapon property _fiery blast_, similar to the seraph's _holy power_?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 17, 2009)

Sure!


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## freyar (Feb 17, 2009)

I'm all for it!


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

Updated.



> All Angels have the following abilities, which they can use as often as desired: Bless (double strength +2, lasts until removed); Detect Evil; Remove Fear; Know Alignment; Remove Curse; Dispel Magic; Exorcise; Protection from Evil 20’ radius; Shapechange.






> Cherubim have the following specia1 abilities, which they will employ to protect their trust Each of these powers may be used as often as desired, one per melee round: Wall of Fire, Flamestrike, Blade Barrier, Glyph of Warding, and Lightning Bolt (10 dice).




Common Spell-like Abilities Among Angels

aid - all but planetar
commune - monadic and movanic devas, solar
continual flame - all
cure X wounds - all devas
detect evil - all
discern lies - all
dispel magic or greater dispel magic - all but movanic deva
heal - astral deva, solar
holy smite - all
plane shift - all devas
polymorph - all
raise dead - all except astral deva and solar (solar has ressurection, though)
remove curse - all
remove disease - all
remove fear - all

"Greater Angels" (solar and planetar) Only:
earthquake 
greater restoration 
lesser restoration 
mass charm monster 
power word stun 
waves of exhaustion 
waves of fatigue


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 17, 2009)

The abilities of a solar are probably a good starting point, plus wall of fire, flame strike (fire storm?) and chain lightning.


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2009)

That sounds about right, though thematically I think we could drop heal or raise dead/resurrection and/or similar SLAs.


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2009)

I'll see you the raise dead/ressurections, but let's keep heal.

So...

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—aid, animate objects, commune, continual flame, dimensional anchor, greater dispel magic, holy smite (DC 25), imprisonment (DC 30), invisibility (self only), lesser restoration (DC 23), remove curse, remove disease, remove fear, resist energy, summon monster VII, speak with dead (DC 24), wall of fire, waves of fatigue; 3/day—blade barrier (DC 27), chain lightning (DC 27), flame strike (DC 26), earthquake (DC 29), heal (DC 27), mass charm monster (DC 29), permanency, waves of exhaustion; 1/day—fire storm (DC 29), greater restoration (DC 28), power word blind, power word kill, power word stun, prismatic spray (DC 28), wish. Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 24, 2009)

Those look good to me.


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## freyar (Feb 25, 2009)

Same here.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2009)

Updated.

Natural armor bonus?  Solars have +21.  We gave the seraph +30.  Maybe +26-27?

damage reduction 20/epic and evil?

regeneration 20?

Amount of spell resistance?  Solars have 32, seraphs 40.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 26, 2009)

Natural armor +26, SR 38. DR and regeneration look good.


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## Shade (Feb 27, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 17 at 39 ranks
Skills common to greater angels:
Concentration, Craft (any x), Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (any x), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot (and a couple have Balance)

Feats: 13 (6 can be epic)
Feats common to most angels:
Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Power Attack

Other feats among angels:
Alertness, Blind-Fight, Dodge, Great Fortitude, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Mobility, Track, Weapon Focus (greatsword)


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 27, 2009)

Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Empower SLA (fire storm), Quicken SLA (greater dispel magic), Spell Stowaway (heal), Blinding Speed, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack

I think we should also increase the caster level to 25, because otherwise they'll be easy prey for dispelling at that level.


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## Shade (Feb 27, 2009)

Sounds good.

Skills: 17 at 39 ranks
Balance, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Use Magic Device?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 27, 2009)

Any particular reason for Balance? I'd rather switch it out for Knowledge (arcana).


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## freyar (Mar 1, 2009)

I think there's a spot for both Balance and Knowledge (arcana); I only count 16 skills in Shade's suggestions.  But wouldn't Concentration also be good for the SLAs?

You guys have done a good job with this!


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 1, 2009)

How did we miss Concentration!


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## freyar (Mar 1, 2009)

Not sure. 

BTW, check out the Thursday 26 Feb entry of the Paizo blog.  That angel looks a lot like a seraph.


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2009)

Neat!   Paizo has really found some fantastic artists.  

Balance was one that popped up in some angel entries.  I'll gladly swap it for Knowledge (arcana).  And Concentration appeared to be a victim of cutting and pasting (hence only 16 skills listed).  

Updated.

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: x

A cherub is x feet tall and weighs x pounds.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 3, 2009)

Hm. Solars are CR 23... so cherubs are somewhere in the 26-28 range.


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2009)

We placed the seraph at CR 27, so probably CR 25 for these guys.  We've got one more angel to fit between the solar and cherub, so if we target CR 24 for those guys, we should be OK.

Alternatively, we could add a few more abilities to drive the cherubs up to CR 26.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 3, 2009)

CR 25 is probably fine--it's just that solars have terrible hit points and ability scores for a CR 23. Oh, angels. Why are you so poorly designed?


----------



## Shade (Mar 3, 2009)

Advancement: x

A cherub is x feet tall and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2009)

12 ft, 1000 lb?

37-54 HD (Large), 55-108 HD (Huge)?


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

Since we've only got the mightier seraphs advancing to 72 HD, I wouldn't want to go beyond that.  

Solar Advancement: 23-33 HD (Large); 34-66 HD (Huge)
Seraph advancement:  45-66 HD (Huge), 67-72 HD (Gargantuan)

...which I believe we modeled off the...

Infernal Advancement:  41-50 HD (Large); 51-56 HD (Huge); 57-72 HD (Gargantuan)

Of course, we can revisit the seraph's advancement if that would be more appropriate.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 5, 2009)

No, I think it'd be appropriate to limit the cherubim advancement.


----------



## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

37-54 HD (Huge), 55-70 HD (Gargantuan)?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Mar 5, 2009)

Sure!


----------



## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

Updated.

Organization: Solitary, pair, or host (x)

After that, I think we're finished.


----------



## freyar (Mar 6, 2009)

Yeah, I forgot to look at the seraphim, just looked at the SRD angels.  

Ummm, 4-8 in a host? Possibly add some lesser angels as well?


----------



## Shade (Mar 6, 2009)

How about 4-8 plus up to 32 HD of lesser angels?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Mar 6, 2009)

Sounds good to me.


----------



## freyar (Mar 6, 2009)

Works for me, too.


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2009)

Updated.

Finished?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Mar 9, 2009)

I think so.


----------



## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

Looks good.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2009)

*Thrones*
The third order in the Celestial hierarchy is the Thrones, who are charged with being the instruments of ultimate justice. Rarely coming if appealed to, the Thrones appear when dispatched even if no request is made. They tend to be more concerned with slights to their Deity than with the actions men do to one another. They are mentioned in the Testament of Levi in the Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs. The Princes are: Orifiel, Zaphkiel, Jophiel, and Raziel.

Frequency: Very rare
Number appearing: 1
Armor Class: -3
Move: 9/24
Hit Dice: 133 Hit Points
Number of Attacks Varies
Damage: Varies (see below)
Special Attacks: See below
Special Defenses: +2 or better to hit
Magic Resistance: 75%
Intelligence: Exceptional
Alignment: Lawful Good
Size: Varies

The Throne can assume the shape and powers of any other creature. The Angel has the full abilities of the creature whose shape it assumes. If the Throne assumes a humanoid shape, it has the abilities of whatever character class it chooses at the 15th level of ability. The Thrones are relentless in their duty, and if defeated will retire for a year and then take up their pursuit again. They are vaguely reptilian in their natural form and there is a 50% chance that they will employ one offensive magic item when in human form.

Divide by 4.5 rule yields 29 HD.


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2009)

Huh, given their likely power level, I'd think they'd have more than one magic item! 

Are we going to give them a more powerful kind of polymorph or stick to the usual alternate form/change shape?  That seems like he biggest question with these.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 3, 2009)

A "mimic class feature" ability would seem to be the trick here.


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2009)

Solar has Str 28, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 23, Wis 25, Cha 25

We gave the cherub Str 36, Dex 25, Con 28, Int 28, Wis 30, Cha 32

Shave another 2-4 points off each ability score (except Dex), like we did last time?


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## freyar (Apr 6, 2009)

Are there any others to fit between these and the solars?


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2009)

Let's see...nope.   The next toughest, the dominations, translate to 19 HD.


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## freyar (Apr 6, 2009)

In that case, going right in between sounds good to me.  How about Str 32, Dex 25, Con 24, Int 26, Wis 27, Cha 29?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 6, 2009)

Thrones - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Should be relevant. See the parts about passing the justice of god. They are sometimes also the giant wheel angels, which I love--are the ophalim given a seperate existence in this article, or should we combine them here?


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2009)

They do not appear in the article, even in passing reference.

Rather than combine the two, how about converting both the thrones/"justice angels" and the ophanim/"wheel angels" as unique creatures?


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## freyar (Apr 7, 2009)

Works for me.  Similar power levels for both?


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## Shade (Apr 9, 2009)

Sounds good to me.  Thoughts, Demiurge?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 9, 2009)

Let's do that, then.


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## Shade (Apr 9, 2009)

If the server will allow, I'll add a Homebrews entry for them.  I'm not crossing my fingers, though.


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## Shade (Apr 10, 2009)

Added to Homebrews (finally!).

How's this?

Mimic Class Features (Su?):  A throne may mimic the class features of any single character class.  Treat the throne as if it were a character of 15th-level in this class.  The throne gains only the class features; it does not gain additional skills or skill points, for example.


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## freyar (Apr 11, 2009)

That seems good to me.  I'd go with Su for it, sure.

Didn't realize/remember we were including localized omniscience for these, but it does seem like a fairly good fit.


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2009)

Updated.



freyar said:


> Didn't realize/remember we were including localized omniscience for these, but it does seem like a fairly good fit.




All the angels in the article had those abilities, so it seemed worthwhile for at least the high-HD conversions.

Shall we work on some justice-themed abilties?


----------



## freyar (Apr 13, 2009)

Ahh, ok, I forgot that.  

Mark of justice as an SLA could be a start.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 14, 2009)

Perhaps some ability where they can take the damage dealt to them and inflict it on the one who did it?


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2009)

Hmmm, I feel like we've done a retributive strike or something.  Or maybe I'm getting confused with the staff of power and what not.  Although that does suggest death throes of some sort possibly.

Anyway, I like your idea.


----------



## Shade (Apr 14, 2009)

We did this...

Retributive Strike (Ex): An angel of wrath may make an attack of opportunity once per round as an immediate action against a creature that damaged it with a melee attack.

Another interesting idea would be to give it something akin to shield of faith...where the damage is transferred to the aggressor rather than the angel.


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2009)

Yeah, I like the shield of faith idea.  I was thinking along the lines of fire shield at some point, but that didn't seem quite right.  Shield of faith has much better flavor.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Apr 14, 2009)

You mean shield other? Yeah, "shield self" seems appropriate.


----------



## freyar (Apr 15, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> You mean shield other? Yeah, "shield self" seems appropriate.



Right!


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2009)

So shield self, mark of justice as SLA.

How about zone of truth as SLA?

Maybe use some of these for inspiration?

Matter of Justice (Su): At 9th level, a justice hammer can, as a standard action, project an aura of implacable justice that unsettles his enemies. All opponents within 20 feet of the justice hammer must make a Will save (DC 10 + the justice hammer's class level + the justice hammer's Charisma modifier) or be shaken for 2d4 rounds. Those who succeed are immune to the justice hammer's matter of justice effect for 1 day. Matter of justice is a mind-affecting fear effect and is usable twice per day.

Bureaucratic Knowledge (Ex): Although battling the forces of chaos is one of the primary functions of the justiciar, she is also expected to have a thorough grasp of legal processes in civilizations all across Faerûn. Beginning at 2nd level, the character gains a bonus equal to her justiciar of Tyr level on all Knowledge and Gather Information checks related to laws or legal proceedings (such as recalling whether carrying weapons is illegal in a certain city or researching proper courtoom etiquette). She also gains the same bonus on Charisma-based skill or ability checks made to argue legal matters.

Indelible Imprint (Su): When one of the Celestial Hebdomad is slain, the dying paragon releases holy energy to brand its murderer for all time. The instant the paragon dies, all creatures within 100 feet who have dealt damage to the paragon within the past day must make a DC 37 Will save. The save DC is Charisma-based. Those that succeed suffer no ill effects. Creatures that fail receive an unsightly rune upon their faces that instantly identifies them to any lawful good outsider as a murderer of a member of the Hebdomad. The mark may be removed with a wish or miracle spell.


----------



## freyar (Apr 15, 2009)

I especially like the first and third of those.  Maybe a Su version of the 2nd.


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2009)

Updated.

Zone of truth at will or 3/day?  How about shield self?

Uses per day of Aura of Justice?

Racial bonus granted by legal knowledge?


----------



## freyar (Apr 29, 2009)

Zone of truth at will.  Mark of justice 3/day maybe.  Shield self continuous aura?

Aura of justice 3/day?

+8 bonus?


----------



## Shade (Apr 30, 2009)

How's this?

Shielded by Justice (Su):  A throne's innate powers of justice are so strong that some of its wounds are transferred to its attacker. The throne takes only half damage from all wounds and attacks (including that dealt by special abilities) that deal hit point damage. The amount of damage not taken by the throne is taken by the attacker. Forms of harm that do not involve hit points, such as charm effects, temporary ability damage, level draining, and death effects, are not affected. If the throne suffers a reduction of hit points from a lowered Constitution score, the reduction is not split with its attacker because it is not hit point damage.


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2009)

Looks good!  Evil PCs would be in for a shock.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Apr 30, 2009)

I like that a lot.


----------



## Shade (Apr 30, 2009)

Updated.

Other SLAs?

Common angelic SLAs can be found here.


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## freyar (May 1, 2009)

Probably most of the "all" SLAs in the common list.  Power word stun and the two "waves of" spells seem good for bringing a criminal to justice, too.


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## Shade (May 1, 2009)

Those suggestions sound good to me.  Demiurge, do you have anything to add?


----------



## demiurge1138 (May 1, 2009)

Add heal to that list, and I'm happy. Maybe blade barrier.


----------



## Shade (May 1, 2009)

Updated.

I borrowed imprisonment and speak with dead from the solar, as they seemed useful for its niche.

Suggested melee weapon?

damage reduction 15/epic and evil?

regeneration 15?

spell resistance 34?


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## freyar (May 3, 2009)

SLAs seem good.

Longsword is relatively generic for when they mimic mortals and is reasonable for a high HD angel.

The rest sounds right.


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## Shade (May 4, 2009)

Solar has a +5 dancing sword.   What shall we give these guys?  +5 merciful longsword?  Maybe speed for "swift justice"?


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## freyar (May 4, 2009)

I feel like we might have given one of the angels in this thread merciful weapons already.  If that's the case, let's go for speed.


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## demiurge1138 (May 4, 2009)

Agreed to speed.


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## Shade (May 4, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 15 at 32 ranks

Feats: 10 (3 can be epic)

Common angelic feats and skills can be found here.


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## freyar (May 4, 2009)

Skills: Balance, Concentration, Craft (any 1), Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (any 2), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot

Feats: Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Power Attack,  Improved Sunder, Blind-Fight, ???


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## demiurge1138 (May 4, 2009)

Flyby Attack and Empower SLA (blade barrier) leap out at me, but no Epic feats spring to mind.


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## Shade (May 5, 2009)

We can mine what we gave the cherub for ideas...

Feats: Blinding Speed, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Great Cleave, Empower Spell-Like Ability (fire storm), Improved Initiative, Mobility, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (greater dispel magic), Spell Stowaway (heal), Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack


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## freyar (May 5, 2009)

Does the SLA CL count for the Spell Stowaway prereq?  I kind of suspect not, but that might otherwise be a good feat.

Blinding Speed looks good!


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## demiurge1138 (May 5, 2009)

Blinding Speed is somewhat redundant with the speed weapon, isn't it?


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## freyar (May 6, 2009)

Hmm, I'm really not putting things together today, am I?  You're right.  

How about Superior Init?


----------



## Shade (May 8, 2009)

Updated.

We need 1 more feat (which can be epic).  Dire Charge?  Quicken SLA (mark of justice)?


----------



## demiurge1138 (May 8, 2009)

...quickened mark of justice is flavorful, but Dire Charge is magnificent, especially with the speed. I'm torn.


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## Shade (May 8, 2009)

We could drop Cleave to make room.  I see them more as one-on-one combatants, dispensing direct justice.


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## demiurge1138 (May 9, 2009)

Agreed to dropping Cleave to squeeze those both in there.


----------



## Shade (May 11, 2009)

Actually, it looks like Cleave stays.

Mark of Justice has a casting time of 10 minutes, and thus, cannot be quickened.


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## freyar (May 11, 2009)

Well, that's ok.  We'll just have to stick with Dire Charge.

host (1d4 plus up to 30 HD of lesser angels)?

How much AC do we want for these?


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## demiurge1138 (May 11, 2009)

1 or 2 points less than the previous one?


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## Shade (May 11, 2009)

Sure.  We gave the cherub +26.   Solar has +21.   So, +24 seems good to me.

CR 24 (right between solar and cherub)?

Solar Advancement: 23-33 HD (Large); 34-66 HD (Huge)
Cherub Advancement: 37-54 HD (Huge), 55-70 HD (Gargantuan)

So...

Advancement: 30-33 HD (Large); 34-68 HD (Huge)?

A throne is x feet tall and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (May 11, 2009)

That all looks good.  

Do we have any mythological references on height and weight?


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## Shade (May 11, 2009)

Wikipedia implies nothing out-of-the-ordinary for angels in their appearance (unless you get into the "wheel" variant).  So we can probably use the same as solar...

A solar has a deep and commanding voice, and stands about 9 feet tall. It weighs about 500 pounds.


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## freyar (May 12, 2009)

Let's do 8 feet and 350-400 lb.


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## Shade (May 12, 2009)

Any particular reason to make them smaller than solars and planetars?


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## freyar (May 12, 2009)

Oh, I missed planetars are the same.  Ok, 9ft and 500lb it is.


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## Shade (May 12, 2009)

Updated.  How's it looking?


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## freyar (May 12, 2009)

Pretty good!

Advancement: 30-43 HD (Large), 44-57 HD (Huge)?


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## Shade (May 12, 2009)

How about 30-33 HD (Large); 34-68 HD (Huge) so it fits between the solar and cherub (as it does in CR and hierarchy)?


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## freyar (May 12, 2009)

Actually, why do the cherub and seraph grow a size category with their first HD advancement?  The planetar, solar, and astra deva all start with X HD and advance as X+1 - 1.5 X HD (same), 1.5 X + 1 - 3X HD (one larger).  That's what I was just doing with the throne.  The cherub and seraph have X+1 - 1.5X HD (one larger), 1.5X+1 - 3X HD (two larger).  Is there a reason we did that?


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## Shade (May 13, 2009)

I believe this stemmed from basing the toughest of the bunch, the seraphim, off the infernals.  

I'm fine with going back and refiguring the Advancement of all the angels we've converted from this issue, though.


----------



## freyar (May 13, 2009)

I'm fine with going either way, really, but I was curious.  Anyone have a strong opinion?


----------



## Shade (May 14, 2009)

Anyone?...Bueller?... Bueller?... Bueller?


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## freyar (May 15, 2009)

If no one else chimes in by Friday morning, why don't we split the difference between solars and cherubim, like you suggested above?


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## demiurge1138 (May 15, 2009)

Yeah, I have no real opinion on this issue.


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## Shade (May 15, 2009)

freyar said:


> If no one else chimes in by Friday morning, why don't we split the difference between solars and cherubim, like you suggested above?




So be it.  Updated.  Anything left?


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## freyar (May 15, 2009)

Think it's done.  Are we doing the wheel version next?


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## Shade (May 15, 2009)

Sure thing!

Here's what we know about them:  Ophan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## freyar (May 15, 2009)

From that, I could see these as about as powerful as cherubim, or between cherubim and thrones.  What do you think?


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## demiurge1138 (May 15, 2009)

Between cherubim and thrones, I think. All around vision, flaming body deals damage to attackers...


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## freyar (May 15, 2009)

Agreed.  If these are supposed to be the literal thrones of deities, I could see special defensive powers, as well.


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## Shade (May 18, 2009)

Cherub is 36 HD, Str 36, Dex 25, Con 28, Int 28, Wis 30, Cha 32, Cr 25.
Throne is 29 HD, Str 32, Dex 25, Con 24, Int 26, Wis 27, Cha 29, CR 24.

So 32-33 HD, Str 34, Dex 25, Con 36, Int 27, Wis 28-29, Cha 30-31, CR 24-25?


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## freyar (May 18, 2009)

Looks good!  33 HD, Wis 28, Cha 31?


----------



## Shade (May 19, 2009)

Sounds good.

Slam attacks?

Borrow burn from fire elementals?   Maybe make damage half-divine like flame strike?


----------



## freyar (May 20, 2009)

Slam and burn w/half divine sounds good!


----------



## Shade (May 20, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## demiurge1138 (May 20, 2009)

Sounds good to me too.


----------



## Shade (May 26, 2009)

Suggested SLAs?

We gave the throne...

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—aid, commune, continual flame, greater dispel magic, holy smite (DC 23), imprisonment (DC 28), remove curse, remove disease, remove fear, speak with dead (DC 22), waves of fatigue, zone of truth; 3/day—empowered blade barrier (DC 25), heal (DC 25), mark of justice, waves of exhaustion; 1/day—power word stun. Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

I could see empowered flame strikes and similar holy/fire combos.


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## demiurge1138 (May 26, 2009)

We could give them a SA that makes all fire attacks they do half holy, then give them spells like fire storm and meteor storm.


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## Shade (May 26, 2009)

Great idea!  How's this?

Fires of Heaven (Su):  Half the damage dealt by an ophan's spells or special abilities that would normally deal fire damage results directly from divine power and is therefore not subject to being reduced by resistance to fire-based attacks.  This has no effect on effects like flame strike, which already deal partial damage from divine power.


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## freyar (May 26, 2009)

I like it!  So, how's the SLA list going to look now?


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## Shade (May 26, 2009)

fireball, flaming sphere, scorching ray at will?
flame strike, heat metal, wall of fire 3/day?
fire storm, incendiary cloud, meteor swarm 1/day?

Mix in some typical angel SLAs like cure spells and remove spells?


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## freyar (May 26, 2009)

Yes.  Also, for some reason hold spells seem appropriate for something guarding a throne, even if that's not really angelic.


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## demiurge1138 (May 27, 2009)

Agree to holds.


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## Shade (May 27, 2009)

So...

Spell-Like Abilities: At will aid, commune, continual flame, dimensional anchor, fireball, flaming sphere, greater dispel magic, hold monster, lesser restoration, remove curse, remove disease, remove fear, scorching ray; 3/day--flame strike, heal, heat metal, mass hold monster, wall of fire; 1/day--greater restoration, fire storm, incendiary cloud, meteor swarm. Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## freyar (May 27, 2009)

Ok, something like:

at will - fireball, flaming sphere, scorching ray, hold person, cure moderate wounds
3/day - flame strike, heat metal, wall of fire, hold monster, greater restoration, remove disease
1/day - fire storm, incendiary cloud, meteor swarm, mass hold monster, mass heal

The healing spells might need some work, not sure.

Edit: Ninja Shade strikes again!  I'm happy with those suggestions, too; they're a little bit of a bump compared to mine.


----------



## Shade (May 27, 2009)

Sweet, I just gained a ninja level.  

+25 natural armor (right between cherub and throne)?

DR and regen 15 (like throne) or 20 (like cherub)?

Skills: 16 at 36 ranks

Feats: 12 (5 can be epic)


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## freyar (May 28, 2009)

+25 natural and regeneration 20.  Get to skills and feats in the morning.


----------



## Shade (May 28, 2009)

Updated.


----------



## freyar (May 28, 2009)

Looking good.

Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (any 4), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Tumble, Use Magic Device?

Feats: Flyby Attack, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Awesome Blow, Ability Focus (mass hold monster), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (flame strike), Improved Initiative, Superior Initiative, 4 more (can be epic)


----------



## Shade (May 28, 2009)

Looks good.   Add Blind-Fight, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack?


----------



## demiurge1138 (May 28, 2009)

Spring Attack chain sounds good. Might consider Combat Expertise instead of Blind-Fight.


----------



## Shade (May 29, 2009)

Updated.

Should it only have a single slam attack for a full attack (and thus, Str and 1/2 damage)?

spell resistance 34?

Organization: Solitary, pair, or host (1-4 plus x cherubim and up to x HD of lesser angels)

Advancement: x


----------



## freyar (May 29, 2009)

Other suggestions sound good, but Fly-by Attack is now redundant with Spring Attack (as far as I can tell).  Dire Charge might be good again.

host (1-4 plus 1 cherub and up to 20 HD of lesser angels)?
Might want to check the lesser angels vs thrones and cherubim.

Advancement: follow pattern of thrones?


----------



## Shade (May 29, 2009)

freyar said:


> Other suggestions sound good, but Fly-by Attack is now redundant with Spring Attack (as far as I can tell).  Dire Charge might be good again.




Flyby Attack doesn't prevent any AoOs, so they aren't really redundant.


----------



## freyar (May 29, 2009)

If you have Spring Attack, though, why would you need Flyby Attack?  You can already move, attack, and move again w/o AoOs.  Spring Attack doesn't say you have to use your base land speed.


----------



## Shade (May 29, 2009)

Because, without Flyby Attack...

"Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move."

So Spring Attack is worthless while flying without the feat, unless you are already next to your opponent.


----------



## freyar (May 29, 2009)

So the interpretation is that Spring Attack doesn't work for flying movement?  That's fair.  However, does it then let you avoid AoOs when flying?  We could go with Improved Flyby Attack instead if not.

Sometimes the rules do get a bit confusing to me.


----------



## Shade (May 29, 2009)

I agree it is confusing.  I think it works like this...

Normally, when flying, a creature may only attack before or after it moves with its fly speed.

Spring Attack allows you to move both before and after your attacks and avoid AoOs from your target.

Flyby Attack allows a flying creature to make an attack at any point of its movement.

So, I could be wrong, but I believe you need both Flyby Attack and Spring Attack to make an attack during your flight *and* avoid AoOs from your target.

I could be wrong, though, as the text for Spring Attack doesn't limit it to land speed.  It seems odd to me to have two feats that do essentially the same thing, though, and have one completely better than the other.   Of course, Spring Attack does have more prereqs...


----------



## freyar (May 31, 2009)

Yeah, I kind of thought the point of Flyby Attack was largely to avoid the prereqs.  The other thing is that there's an Improved Flyby Attack which basically adds back the prereqs and turns Flyby Attack into a flying Spring Attack.  So it's possible these are supposed to be entirely different feat chains.  I'm willing to go however you think is reasonable, though!

Perhaps we should ask the kobold sometime.


----------



## Shade (Jun 1, 2009)

Only if it's a flying kobold.  



freyar said:


> host (1-4 plus 1 cherub and up to 20 HD of lesser angels)?
> Might want to check the lesser angels vs thrones and cherubim.




That looks reasonable.  

Solars and planetars are just "solitary or pair".  



freyar said:


> Advancement: follow pattern of thrones?




Sure!

An ophan is x feet in diameter and weighs x pounds.


----------



## freyar (Jun 1, 2009)

10 ft and 1000 lb?

Edit: final call on CR?  24?  And then is it done?


----------



## Shade (Jun 2, 2009)

Updated.

It looks like we still need damage amount for the holy flames.


----------



## freyar (Jun 3, 2009)

Another 2d8?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jun 3, 2009)

4d8 damage from holy flames?


----------



## freyar (Jun 3, 2009)

You guys have more experience at this CR, so I yield.  Besides, 4d8 is better than 2d8.


----------



## Shade (Jun 3, 2009)

Updated.

Any suggestions to beef up the flavor text?


----------



## Leopold (Jun 3, 2009)

_A great golden wheel wreathed in flames, with a smaller slowly rotating wheel nested within it, floats in the air before you. Hundreds of humannoid eyes  covering the surface of each spoke stare intensely outward and an overwhelming feeling of tranquilty  washes over you as it approaches._


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jun 4, 2009)

According to tradiiton, the ophan tend to appear to prophets to bestow enlightenment and wisdom and to show them Heaven. Shall we give them SLAs like vision, divination, dream, legend lore and plane shift?


----------



## Shade (Jun 4, 2009)

Augury at will, divination 3/day, 1/day for the rest?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jun 4, 2009)

Sounds good to me!


----------



## Shade (Jun 4, 2009)

Updated.

All done?


----------



## Leopold (Jun 4, 2009)

can't see anything more to do. She looks good Jim.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jun 4, 2009)

I think we are, yeah.


----------



## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

The divinations are a nice touch.

Next!


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

*Dominations*
The Angels of this order are often seen appearing as Lords of great majesty holding an orb, sceptre, or both. Their duty is to regulate the Angels (fallen and true), and through them the Majesty of the Deity is manifested. They are referred to in Colossians 1:16 and Enoch 20:1. Should a Devil take too active a role on the material plane, one of the Dominations will return him to his rightful place. They also react to those who would put themselves forward as being a (false) god due to magical powers or abilities. The ruling Princes of Dominations are Zadkiel, Hashmal, Zacharael (Yahriel), and Muriel.
Frequency: Rare
Number appearing: 1
Armor Class: -2
Move: 9/24
Hit Dice: 88 Hit Points
Number of Attacks: 1
Damage: 5-60 (5d12 to subdue only)
Special Attacks: See below
Special Defenses: +2 or better to hit
Magic Resistance: 65%
Intelligence: Exceptional
Alignment: Lawful Good
Size: Large (12’ tall)

When in conflict with a Devil, the Dominations will always attempt to force the Devil to return to Hell. They will drive the Devil forth, striking it with both hands until it subdues meekly, returning to its own plane. When in conflict with other creatures, the Angels of this order will first attempt to overawe their opponent with the majesty of the power of their Deity (save vs. magic or be subdued), and if this fails they will use miracles to put the opponent in a position where it can do no damage while contemplating the error of its ways.

Angels of Dominations know the names of all creatures, and 40% of the time will have and employ a Brazen Bottle. They may also employ once per round any of the following miracles, Hold Person or Monster (save at -3), Dispel Magic, Plane Shift, Dispel Evil, Polymorph Others, Imprisonment, Flesh to Stone or Salt, and Spiritwrack.

Divide by 4.5 rule yields 19 HD, so we're finally below solar in power.

Christian angelic hierarchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

19 HD places them between planetars and solars.

Planetar: Str 25, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 22, Wis 23, Cha 22
Solar: Str 28, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 23, Wis 25, Cha 25

So...Str 26, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 22, Wis 24, Cha 24?


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## Leopold (Jun 10, 2009)

. Not strong in the physical sense more like an emotional/mental barrage instead of meancing presence. These are the  middle management of heaven from the wikipedia article.

Str 20, Dex 18, Con 20, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 28

Whatever we can do to make them more imposing in a Awe Struck sense instead of a physical sense seems like a good fit here.I figure on making them smarter, more intelegent, and more charasmatic. They order people around and command/demand people to do their will rather than beat them to a pulp. Carrot Vs. Stick.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

I agree with you generally Leopold, but I don't want to go quite that far.  Str 23, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 27?

They definitely need merciful weapons.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

Yeah, I definitely don't want them eclipsing solars, which are "close attendants to a deity or champions of some cosmically beneficent task".  Think of them as "senior management" to expand on your idea.

We can reflect the more "encourage people to do things" aspect via spell-like abilities and other powers.


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## Leopold (Jun 10, 2009)

I didn't feel these guys were all that strong or needed to be, hence the low strength. having 2-3 more points in CHA isn't going to eclipse these over the solar. The solar is the HNIC when it comes to the voice of god in both voice and physical presence. These just happen to be a bit more persuasive but not as "buff".


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

Err, can we find a compromise proposal?


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## Leopold (Jun 10, 2009)

Str 23, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 28?

If you want to make CHA 27 fine with me. I'm willing to meet in the middle here. Stats are not a deal breaker either way, even stats just make life easier when doing stat blocks.

As long as the CHA was high I was happy. Rest don't matter to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 11, 2009)

I prefer freyar's stats.

Merciful weapons seem right--perhaps we can look to the god rules for the "awe" ability of their presence. Some manner of fear effects (maybe) and banishment also seem appropriate.


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## Leopold (Jun 11, 2009)

His stats work for me...Firedrill OMG.


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## freyar (Jun 11, 2009)

Definitely banishment, either SLA or some unique version.  Awe/fear effects also sound right.


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## Shade (Jun 11, 2009)

Added the basics to Homebrews.

I went with the name "Dominion" rather than "Domination", as it seemed both more accurate to theology and more angelic ("Domination" screams "lawful evil" at me).

Here's an awe ability we came up with earlier...

Awe (Su): Once per day, a t’uen-rin may create an aura that can deeply affect mortals. It does this by rearing up on its hind legs, and letting out a commanding cry. Creatures that can see the t’uen-rin must succeed on a DC 28 Will save to avoid the effects. A creature that succeeds on its saving throw remains immune to that t’uen-rin's awe for 24 hours. This effect lasts for 2d6+6 rounds. This is a mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma-based. 

A t’uen-rin can choose from the following effects each round as a free action while its awe power is in effect: 

Daze: Affected beings just stare at the t’uen-rin in fascination. Awed creatures may defend themselves normally, but can take no actions. If a creature attacked physically, it will recover in the following round. 

Fright: Affected beings become shaken and suffer a –2 morale penalty on attack rolls, saves, and checks. The merest glance or gesture from the t’uen-rin makes them frightened, and they flee as quickly as they can, although they can choose the path of their flight. 

Resolve: The t’uen-rin’s allies receive a +4 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and checks, while the t’uen-rin’s foes receive a –4 morale penalty on attack rolls, saves, and checks. 

From the same creature, a variation on this ability might be appropriate here...

Repel Evil (Su): Once per month, a t'uen-rin can attempt to telepathically drive away all evil creatures from an area. All evil beings without a divine rank within 50 square miles must succeed on a DC 26 Will save or immediately exit the area to the best of their abilities. This effect otherwise functions as the repulsion spell in that area, except it only effects evil creatures without a divine rank, and it has a duration of one month. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 11, 2009)

Yeah, that ability, seeing as how it borrows heavily from the gods, is exactly what I was looking for. Repel Evil is pretty sweet, too.


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## freyar (Jun 12, 2009)

Those are good!  Repel evil is pretty powerful for something with 16HD and CR 20 like the t'uen-rin.  I think I'd probably shrink the range and duration but increase the allowed frequency for the Dominions.  Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 12, 2009)

Yeah, making repel evil last for a day in a... sixty foot radius or something like that is much more reasonable.


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## freyar (Jun 12, 2009)

I like that range and duration.  And with the smaller area, I'd be ok with upping to 3/day, even.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2009)

Updated.


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2009)

Looking good.  Time for SLAs?  Want to include banishment or go with a unique ability?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 16, 2009)

Banishment works for me.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

I'd suggest we find a happy medium between the planetar and solar lists, and modify to fit the theme...

Planetar Spell-Like Abilities: At will continual flame, dispel magic, holy smite (DC 20, invisibility (self only), lesser restoration (DC 18), remove curse (DC 19), remove disease (DC 19), remove fear (DC 18), speak with dead (DC 19); 3/day--blade barrier (DC 22), flame strike (DC 21), power word, stun, raise dead, waves of fatigue; 1/day--earthquake (DC 24), greater restoration (DC 23), mass charm monster (DC 24), waves of exhaustion. Caster level 17th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

The following abilities are always active on the planetar's person, as the spells (caster level 17th); detect evil, detect snares and pits, discern lies (DC 20), see invisibility, and true seeing. They can be dispelled, but the planetar can reactivate them as a free action.

Solar Spell-Like Abilities: At will aid, animate objects, commune, continual flame, dimensional anchor, greater dispel magic, holy smite (DC 21), imprisonment (DC 26), invisibility (self only), lesser restoration (DC 19), remove curse (DC 20), remove disease (DC 20), remove fear (DC 18), resist energy, summon monster VII, speak with dead (DC 20), waves of fatigue; 3/day--blade barrier (DC 23), earthquake (DC 25), heal (DC 23), mass charm monster (DC 25), permanency, resurrection, waves of exhaustion; 1/day--greater restoration (DC 24), power word, blind, power word, kill, power word, stun, prismatic spray (DC 24), wish. Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

The following abilities are always active on the solar's person, as the spells (caster level 20th); detect evil, detect snares and pits, discern lies (DC 21), see invisibility, and true seeing. They can be dispelled, but the solar can reactivate them as a free action.


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2009)

Well, the always active ones are the same, so let's stick with those.

The solar has everything a planetar has (and a few things more frequently) or a better version except for flame strike AFAICT.  So, do you want to just add a few things to the planetar?  Banishment 3/day, change dispel magic to greater dispel, what else?


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

Maybe replace mass charm monster with mass hold monster?   Earthquake with great shout?

Add good hope and/or heroism?


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## Leopold (Jun 16, 2009)

Maybe replace mass charm monster with mass hold monster? Earthquake with great shout?

--I think Mass Charm works well with these guys instead of hold. They are the ones that are sent out to organize and get the job done. STunning wouldn't help. Great Shout is viable alternative.

Add good hope and/or heroism?

Good Hope for sure. Heroism only if there's room for it, if not toss it.  Think of Tony Robins only with Wings


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 16, 2009)

I like Shade's suggestions.


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## GrayLinnorm (Jun 16, 2009)

Going by the original description, they should also have dispel evil, flesh  to stone, and baleful polymorph (or would polymorph any object be more appropriate?).


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

Baleful polymorph seems an appropriate non-injurious form of punishment for wrongdoers.

Summarizing...

Spell-Like Abilities: At will continual flame, dispel evil, greater dispel magic, holy smite (DC x), invisibility (self only), lesser restoration, remove curse, remove disease, remove fear, speak with dead; 3/day--banishment (DC X), blade barrier (DC x), power word stun, raise dead, waves of fatigue; 1/day--baleful polymorph (DC X), flesh to stone (DC X), great shout (DC x), greater restoration, mass hold monster (DC x), waves of exhaustion. Caster level 19th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

The following abilities are always active on the dominion's person, as the spells (caster level 19th); detect evil, detect snares and pits, discern lies (DC x), see invisibility, and true seeing. They can be dispelled, but the dominion can reactivate them as a free action.


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2009)

Looks good to me!


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2009)

All that looks good.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2009)

Updated.

Longsword, greatsword, or something else on attack lines?

Regeneration 10 (like planetar) or 15 (like solar)?  I'd rather not split the difference for a nonstandard amount.

Advancement: 19-33 HD (Large); 34-57 HD (Huge)?  This follows the solar progression.


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## Leopold (Jun 17, 2009)

A sceptor/mace or some rod of authority. Something that says "I'm in charge here obey me, I'm the boss"

Regen 10.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2009)

Let's be nonstandard. Glaive? Halberd? Everything's got a sword.


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## Leopold (Jun 17, 2009)

Flail that expands into a dire flail when engaged in combat?

SRDire Flail - D&D Wiki


Having a simple stick to walk around point at people to do work or take them to task then when it gets into combat breaks out the big guns.


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## freyar (Jun 19, 2009)

Here's a relevant quote from the wikipedia page:


> The Dominions are believed to look like divinely beautiful humans with a pair of feathered wings, much like the common representation of Angels, but they may be are distinguished from other groups by wielding orbs of light fastened to the heads of their sceptres or on the pommel of their swords.



If we're trying to avoid a sword, that last bit sounds like good support for a heavy mace.

Regen 10 is ok by me.

Advancement looks fine.

Is the "brazen bottle" mentioned in the original text the same as an iron flask?  We should mention this, and convert it if it's different.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 19, 2009)

OK, sword or heavy mace.


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## GrayLinnorm (Jun 19, 2009)

Here's the brazen bottle, from Encyclopedia Magica:

This item has the appearance of a highly -Burnished, brazen flask, shaped like a Klein bottle.  The flask is corked and the cork has a red seal impressed bearing mystical runes.  When uncorked, the symbols on the seal may be used to compel 1d6 djinni or 1d2 efreet into the bottle, which is then corked.  When one creature is being compelled, the compulsion is at +4 effectiveness, for two creatures, the effextiveness drops to +1, and more than two creatures have normal saving throws.

The bottle may also be used to attempt to jug one of the following - a  balor (+3), invisible stalker (+2), an air elemental (-1), a fire elemental (-2), or a minor fiend (+1).  If forcibly compelled into the bottle, any of the above creatures (including the djinni and efreet) are in very foul moods when next uncorked (attacking with haste and ferocity).  When found in a dungeon, or elsewhere, a bottle may already be occupied - at the DM's discretion.  If a considerable time has elapsed since the being with compelled into the jug (say 1,500 years or so), the being may be so glad for its new-found freedom that it willingly serves the person who freed it for 1001 days.  In some cases (a balor for instance), the liberated creature may attempt to destroy everything in the immediate vicinity.


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## Shade (Jun 19, 2009)

I vote heavy mace and making the brazen bottle simply trap evil outsiders.


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## Leopold (Jun 19, 2009)

Heavy Mace it is!  Didn't want to stat out Brazen Bottle?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 20, 2009)

We can just say it's an iron flask that only works on evil creatures.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2009)

Treating it as an iron flask makes a lot of sense.  

I'd like to mention the Klein bottle shape, but that actually doesn't make a lot of sense in 3D, since the outside of a Klein bottle is the same as the inside!  Trapping something would just leave it where it is!  

But it sure does sound cool in the description!


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2009)

That klein bottle shape is too much for my weary brain to handle on a Monday morning!  

Updated.

Skills: 15 at 22 ranks

Skills common to all angels:
Concentration, Diplomacy, Knowledge (any x), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot (and a couple have Balance)

Additional skills common to "greater" angels:
Craft (any x), Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Search, Spellcraft

Feats: 7

Feats common to most angels:
Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Power Attack

Other feats among angels:
Alertness, Blind-Fight, Dodge, Great Fortitude, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Mobility, Track, Weapon Focus (greatsword)


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2009)

Let's go with 3 Knowledge skills, Balance, Craft (any 2), Intimidate, Search, Spellcraft in addition to the common ones.

Go with the 4 common feats and Dodge, Mobility, Great Fortitude, and either Weapon Focus or Negotiator.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2009)

That works for me.  Anyone object?  Preferences for Weapon Focus or Negotiator?


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## Leopold (Jun 23, 2009)

Negotiator, definately.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 24, 2009)

Negotiator is nice and flavorful.


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2009)

That's what I preferred anyway.  

CR 20ish?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 25, 2009)

Sounds pretty close, but we should fill in the Xs for Armor Class, shouldn't we?


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2009)

Indeed.

We currently have 8 feats selected (Cleave, Dodge, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Mobility, Negotiator, Power Attack), but it only gets 7.  Which one should go?

Natural armor should probably be +20 (right between the planetar's +19 and the solar's +20).


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## Leopold (Jun 25, 2009)

Drop Great Fortitutde. It doesn't fit the whole negotiator profile.  These are the guys you send in to make all sides stop squabbling or to bring order and mediate between parties. Going into combat is a 2ndary purpose for this creature. Moving, ducking, bobbing like a boxer is appropriate. They aren't tough, they are smart and nimble.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 25, 2009)

Agreed to the AC, but I'd rather drop Great Cleave than Great Fortitude.


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2009)

Agreed.  Great Cleave seems even less appropriate for a negotiator.

Updated.

A dominion is x feet tall and weighs x pounds.  (9 ft., 500 pounds like planetar and solar?)

CR 17-18?  By CR advancement guidelines alone, a planetar with this # of HD would be CR 18.  It lacks the full spellcasting of a planetar, though it's awe and repel evil abilities are fairly hefty.


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## Leopold (Jun 25, 2009)

CR17.  Planetar is a combat machine, this guy isn't as much. It's more dangerous in certain circumstances as it's role tends to be more Roleplayish than combat.  Even with the more HD it lacks the spell powers of a cleric, like you said, so it's considerably weaker than a Solar, but still a touch beefier than a planetar.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 25, 2009)

18. It might not have the spellcasting, but it hits way harder than a planetar does.


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2009)

And it's got a merciful weapon, which makes it easier to knock out and capture someone.  Players hate that.  

Also, should we list the extra 1d6 damage of the mace, assuming it's used nonlethally?


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## Shade (Jun 26, 2009)

CR 18 it is, then.

I don't think the nonlethal bonus needs to be included on the attack lines, since it is optional.  If you guys think it needs to be, though, I'm happy to add it.

Beyond that, I think we're finished.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 27, 2009)

I'm okay leaving out the nonlethal. And I agree on the state of doneness.


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2009)

Yeah, that's fine, I wasn't sure of the standard way to write that.  

Next!


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2009)

*Virtues*
The Virtues are the order of Angels that most commonly deals with men. Their principal duty is to work miracles upon the Earth. They are also said to be the chief bestowers of grace and valor. As such, there is a possibility that they can reward an especially deserving human with an increase in charisma. The Virtues often appear as perfectly formed humans with glowing countenances (very similar to what we expect an angel to appear like today).

It is common for a Virtue to be accompanied by 2-12 Angels (9th order). It was written that two Virtues accompanied by 12 Angels prepared Eve for the birth of Cain in Davidson’s monograph The Celestial Virtues. The two angels pictured in the Ascension are commonly believed to be Virtues. The Princes of the Virtues are: Uzziel, Gabriel, Michael, Peliei, Barbiel, Sabriel, Haniel, Hamaliel, and Tarshish.

Frequency: Rare
Number appearing: 1 or 2
Armor Class: -3
Move: 9/24
Hit Dice: 10
Number of Attacks: 1
Damage: 2-12
Special Attacks: See below
Special Defenses: +2 or better to hit
Magic Resistance: 65%
Intelligence: Exceptional
Alignment: Lawful Good
Size: M (6-8’ tall)

It is not uncommon for a Virtue which has been sent to the Material plane to have been given the ability to perform one specific miracle that is beyond its normal powers. These would be major miracles, such as stopping the sun or parting the Red Sea. All Virtues have the following powers which can be used once per round as often as desired: Command; Create Food or Water; Cure Disease, Blindness, or Insanity; Hold Person; Speak with Dead; Cure Serious Wounds; Neutralize Poison; Insect Plague; Raise Dead; True Seeing; and Find the Path.  Once per day Virtues may perform a Restoration or Resurrection. If attacked, a Virtue will summon 2-12 Angels for assistance.

Christian angelic hierarchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 30, 2009)

Hm. Miracle as an SLA 1/year? And they have the ability to bestow a sacred bonus to Cha to particularly worthy mortals? Should this Cha be temporary (albeit a long time, like a year) or permanent (in which case, it should be an inherent bonus, like that granted by wishes and tomes)?


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2009)

Agreed with the miracle 1/yr.  I'd say an inherent bonus seems right (might mesh well with some templates in the AB, actually, but I'm out of town and away from my books).  Seems like there is a good start on at will SLAs also.

Looks like we jumped to below the astral deva.  Is that really right?


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2009)

We sure did, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.  However, we'll spike back up a bit. 

The remaining angels in this article look like this:
Powers = 14 HD
Principalities = 11 HD
Archangels = 11 HD
Angels of the Ninth Order = 6-9 HD

Comparable angels...

"Lesser" Angels:
Agathion: CR 9, 7 HD, Str 19, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 18, Cha 17, DR 10/evil, SR 18
Light: CR 12, 10 HD, Str 1, Dex 18, Con 17, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 21, DR 10/evil, SR 22

Devas:
Movanic Deva: CR 9, 6 HD, Str 17, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 16, Cha 18, DR 10/evil, SR 22, +1 flaming greatsword 
Monadic Deva: CR 12, 10 HD, Str 20, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 19, DR 10/evil, SR 22, uncanny dodge, +3 mace of smiting 
Astral Deva: CR 14, 12 HD, Str 22, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 20, DR 10/evil, SR 30, uncanny dodge, +3 heavy mace of disruption


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## freyar (Jul 1, 2009)

So we're right at the light angel and monadic deva.  (Where are those two lesser angels from, btw?)  DR 10/evil, SR 22 from both of those sounds like a good fit.  I'm thinking these would be perhaps not quite as strong as a monadic, but a little more graceful and charismatic.  Str 17, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 18, Wis 17, Cha 21?


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2009)

The monadic deva is from Fiend Folio, and the light was one of our conversions that's in the CC.

I find your ability scores heavenly.


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## freyar (Jul 1, 2009)

Oh, I meant the light and agathion (which I guess is also in the CC).  I know the monadic deva (also in the ToH -- I should compare those sometime).

Any ideas on special weapons for these?


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2009)

> The term appears to be linked to the attribute "Might", from the Greek root "dunamis" in Ephesians 1:21, which is also translated as "Virtue" (probably due to the powerful nature of these high celestial beings; see quotation below).






> "The name of the holy Virtues signifies a certain powerful and unshakable virility welling forth into all their Godlike energies; not being weak and feeble for any reception of the divine Illuminations granted to it; mounting upwards in fullness of power to an assimilation with God; never falling away from the Divine Life through its own weakness, but ascending unwaveringly to the superessential Virtue which is the Source of virtue: fashioning itself, as far as it may, in virtue; perfectly turned towards the Source of virtue, and flowing forth providentially to those below it, abundantly filling them with virtue."




That sounds like holy to me.  Maybe a holy halberd?  Or holy warhammer?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 2, 2009)

I was going to suggest something flashy, like thundering, but holy definitely works for me. I like the halberd option.


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## Leopold (Jul 2, 2009)

Holy Short Spear of Light? I can never get enough of Spears.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2009)

Updated.



> All Virtues have the following powers which can be used once per round as often as desired: Command; Create Food or Water; Cure Disease, Blindness, or Insanity; Hold Person; Speak with Dead; Cure Serious Wounds; Neutralize Poison; Insect Plague; Raise Dead; True Seeing; and Find the Path.  Once per day Virtues may perform a Restoration or Resurrection.




Some of those are a bit too powerful for their probable CR.  Compare to angels of similar power:

Agathion: At will - aid, bless, clairaudience/clairvoyance, detect evil, detect thoughts (DC 15), discern lies (DC 17), hold person (DC 16), plane shift (DC 20); 3/day - continual flame, cure serous wounds, dispel evil (DC 18), dispel magic, holy smite (DC 17), polymorph (self only), remove curse, remove disease, remove fear; 1/day - commune, raise dead. Caster level 7th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. 

Light: At will - aid, bless, detect evil, discern lies (DC 19), light; 7/day - continual flame, daylight, hold person; 3/day - cure serous wounds, dispel evil (DC 20), dispel magic, holy smite (DC 19), polymorph (self only), remove curse, remove disease, remove fear; 1/day - commune, raise dead. Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. 

Movanic Deva: At will--aid, consecrate, continual flame, create food and water, death ward, detect evil, discern lies (DC 18), polymorph, prayer, protection from arrows; 3/day--atonement, bless weapon, cure serious wounds (DC 17), daylight, divination, ethereal jaunt, hallow, holy smite (DC 18), neutralize poison, plane shift (DC 21), remove curse, remove disease, remove fear; 1/day--commune, raise dead. Caster level 9th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Monadic Deva: At will--aid, charm monster (DC 18, elementals only), consecrate, continual flame, create food and water, death ward, detect evil, discern lies (DC 18), hold monster (DC 19), mirror image, prayer, protection from arrows; 3/day--atonement, cure serious wounds (DC 17), daylight, dispel magic, divination, ethereal jaunt, hallow, holy aura (DC 22), holy smite (DC 18), neutralize poison, plane shift (DC 21), remove curse, remove disease, remove fear; 1/day--commune, dispel evil (DC 19), raise dead. Caster level 11th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Astral Deva: At will—aid, continual flame, detect evil, discern lies (DC 19), dispel evil (DC 20), dispel magic, holy aura (DC 23), holy smite (DC 19), holy word (DC 22), invisibility (self only), plane shift (DC 22), remove curse (DC 18), remove disease (DC 18), remove fear (DC 16); 7/day—cure light wounds (DC 16), see invisibility; 1/day—blade barrier (DC 21), heal (DC 21). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.




> If attacked, a Virtue will summon 2-12 Angels for assistance.




Summon specific types of angels or a set amount of HD?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 2, 2009)

I think we should keep all of them except for resurrection. I like the raise dead thing. Note that they cure disease and insanity, not inflict them. Didn't we do some sort of touch akin to the non-core panacea spell? We should recycle that ability.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2009)

Here's what we gave the angel of healing...

Healing Touch (Su): At will, with a mere touch, an angel of healing may channel positive energy into a creature to wipe away its afflictions. This immediately ends any of the following conditions affecting the subject: blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, frightened, nauseated, panicked, paralyzed, shaken, sickened, and stunned. It negates sleep effects and the effect of the feeblemind spell, and ends any additional effects from poison, as the neutralize poison spell. It also cures 1d8 points of damage + 1 point per HD of the angel (1d8+7 for a typical angel of healing, maximum +20).

Healing touch does not remove ability damage, negative levels, or permanently drained levels.

Used against an undead creature, healing touch deals damage instead of curing the creature (Will DC 16 half), but it has no other effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 2, 2009)

That seems appropriate here. Could be used to pare down the list of SLAs.


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2009)

I'll agree with the Healing Touch replacing a number of those SLAs.  And agreed to keeping the rest except Resurrection.


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## Leopold (Jul 6, 2009)

After looking through old D20 books.  The following are from Atlas' The Penumbra Fantasy Bestiary":

Virtue
Ophanim
Seraphim
Cherub

I don't have the book in front of me at the moment. I can get that when i get home today.  It does appear that many of these angels have been converted already by that above product.


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2009)

That's OK.  We've gone this far, I plan on finishing our take on 'em all.


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2009)

So, in addition to the healing touch ability...

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—command, create food and water, hold person, insect plague, speak with dead, true seeing; 1/day—raise dead; 1/year—miracle. Caster level 10th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Do we want to borrow any of the other common angel SLAs?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 6, 2009)

Not really. Let's let them have a compact list.


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2009)

In that case, Updated.

Let's revisit this...



> They are also said to be the chief bestowers of grace and valor. As such, there is a possibility that they can reward an especially deserving human with an increase in charisma.






			
				Demiurge said:
			
		

> And they have the ability to bestow a sacred bonus to Cha to particularly worthy mortals? Should this Cha be temporary (albeit a long time, like a year) or permanent (in which case, it should be an inherent bonus, like that granted by wishes and tomes)?






			
				freyar said:
			
		

> I'd say an inherent bonus seems right (might mesh well with some templates in the AB, actually, but I'm out of town and away from my books).




I'll agree with the permanent, inherent bonus.  Should we note that they rarely gift a single individual twice?   Otherwise, they'll have a flock of fools repeatedly asking for an inappropriate touch.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 6, 2009)

Something like...

Touch of Beneficence (Su): Once per week, a virtue can bestow upon a deserving mortal a fraction of their god's own radiance, conveying a permanent +2 bonus to the mortal's Charisma score. This is an inherent bonus and does not stack with bonuses granted from wish spells or similar effects, including another touch of beneficence.


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2009)

Perfect!


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## freyar (Jul 7, 2009)

Nice!

Skills: Balance, Concentration, Craft (any 1), Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Knowledge (any 3), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot ?  I'd debate adding in Bluff or Tumble for one of the Knowledges.

Leopold: Another good reason to keep up our conversions is that Echohawk generally doesn't include d20 books (though he does count fansite conversions).


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2009)

Hmmm...I can see Intimidate rather than Bluff.  They seem like "straight-shooters" in their dealings with mortals.

The other skills look good to me.

Feats: 4
Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (hold person)?


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## freyar (Jul 7, 2009)

Fair on Bluff.  I didn't really see Intimidate for these either somehow.  Do you want 3 Knowledges or add in Tumble?

Those feats look good.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 7, 2009)

I'd rather have the three Knowledge skills.

Feats look good, though.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2009)

Updated.



> If attacked, a Virtue will summon 2-12 Angels for assistance.




Summon specific types of angels or a set amount of HD? 

Advancement:  11-20 HD (Medium); 21-30 HD (Large)?  (Like the movanic deva)


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## freyar (Jul 8, 2009)

Advancement is good, but I think you mean monadic.

Let's give it 2 or 3 movanic devas.  What do you think?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 8, 2009)

1d3 devas?


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2009)

Summon Angels (Sp): Once per day, a virtue can can attempt to summon 1d3 movanic devas with a x% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of an 8th-level spell.

Suggested % of success?

*Edit:  *I just noticed this:



> It is common for a Virtue to be accompanied by 2-12 Angels (9th order).




We haven't converted those yet.  Add to summon angels ability, or simply to organization line?

CR 12?  They seem comparable to the similarly-HD monadic deva.

Suggested height/weight?  An astral deva is about 7-1/2 feet tall and weighs about 250 pounds.  The movanic and monadic devas don't list this information.  Note that the greater angels are the same size and weight, so we might just copy the astral deva's to continue this trend.


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## freyar (Jul 8, 2009)

I'm happy with that.  And there's even a CC version of the movanic deva, in case the DM isn't using ToH or FF. 

Edit: ninja'd by Shade again!  I'm happy with his suggestions.  I think we could do 2d6 9th order angels or 1d3 movanic devas for summoning and add the 9th order ones to the organization.


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2009)

Freyar,

Did you catch my edit above?  It probably was distracted by your ninja smoke bomb.


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## freyar (Jul 8, 2009)

I think I did.  Assuming the "9th order" angels are sufficiently weak, I could see "1d3 movanic devas or 2d6 9th order angels" in the summoning ability.  And also put "one virtue plus 2-12 9th order angels" in the organization line.


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2009)

Angels of the Ninth Order have 6-8 HD, so they are actually comparable to movanic devas, rather than inferior.


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## freyar (Jul 8, 2009)

Hmmm, let's go with 1d3 of either for summoning and leave the organization as is.  Sound ok?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 9, 2009)

Sounds okay to me.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2009)

That'll work.

Suggested % of success?

CR 12? They seem comparable to the similarly-HD monadic deva.

Suggested height/weight? An astral deva is about 7-1/2 feet tall and weighs about 250 pounds. The movanic and monadic devas don't list this information. Note that the greater angels are the same size and weight, so we might just copy the astral deva's to continue this trend.


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2009)

Let's see, 50%?

CR 12 is ok by me.

We can just go with the astral deva's height and weight, since the trend makes sense.


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## Leopold (Jul 9, 2009)

From everything that I've been researching on Demons and Celestials (funny how they go hand in hand) most of the angels are realitvely tall humans and fairly well built.  There are only a handful that have funky shapes and types, 80% are human sized and shape if not a bit taller and a bit more beefier. Not fat just in better shapes than us mortals 

You could use 7', 250lbs for most of these and be historically correct give or take a few inches/lbs here and there.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2009)

Cool.  Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2009)

Done, I say!


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 10, 2009)

I think we're good!


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2009)

*Powers*
Powers are charged with seeing that the order of the spheres is maintained. In this they are the chief opponents of Demons rather than Devils, because it is Demons who strive for chaos. Powers are more frequent visitors to the Material plane than most types of Angels. They are zealous in their dedication to maintaining the order as it should be. 

The powers are divided into six groups: Logic, Creativity, Strength, Mercy, Legislation and Punishment. St. Paul, in his Epistles, denotes that to him the Powers are or could be on occasion Evil, or have the potential to be so. In Excerpts from Theodotus the Powers are said to be the first Angels created. In Paradise Lost they are the Order of the Guards in the celestial army. Chief among the Prices is Camael. The others are Gabriel, Vercheil, and formerly Satan (before the fall).

Frequency: Rare
Number Appearing: 1 or 1-3
Armor Class: -3
Move: 9/24”
Hit Dice: 14
Number of Attacks: 1
Damage: 2-24
Special Attacks: see below
Special Defenses: +2 or better to hit
Magic Resistance: 65%
Intelligence: Exceptional
Alignment: Lawful Good
Size: L (12’ tall)

The Powers have a Strength of 18/00 and regenerate 2 points of damage per round. They add +3 to the morale of any Good creature who can see them. Once each round a Power may use one of the following: Hold Person or Monster, Silence 15’, Continual Light, Sticks to Snakes, Flame Strike, True Seeing, Blade Barrier, Stone Tell. Once per day a Power may use Resurrection, Earthquake, Holy Word.

Christian angelic hierarchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2009)

So a little better than an astral deva.  Fast Healing, or give them Regeneration like greater angels?  Some sort of Aura like a bardic music effect of some type.  Damage looks intriguingly like 2d12; want to twist the 1 attack into 2 and give them TWF with greataxes?


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## Leopold (Jul 10, 2009)

Do they have to be LG as the description sounds more LN than LG?


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2009)

Leopold said:


> Do they have to be LG as the description sounds more LN than LG?



Dunno, in some places they sound very LG and some places very LN.  We should probably go with LG since they are angels, after all, I guess.


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## GrayLinnorm (Jul 10, 2009)

Leopold said:


> Do they have to be LG as the description sounds more LN than LG?



 Would Usually lawful good work? The original text also says it's possible for them to be evil.


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2009)

GrayLinnorm said:


> Would Usually lawful good work? The original text also says it's possible for them to be evil.



I'm starting to wonder if Always LG with a notation that Powers are more often among fallen angels (using whatever rules for fallen celestials the DM likes).  Of course, there's the other rumor that no Powers have fallen (see wikipedia).


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2009)

freyar said:


> I'm starting to wonder if Always LG with a notation that Powers are more often among fallen angels (using whatever rules for fallen celestials the DM likes).  Of course, there's the other rumor that no Powers have fallen (see wikipedia).




Agreed.  I absolutely do not want to make an angel non-good, as they are exemplar outsiders for Good.  

The rest of the angels are all "always good (any)", so even pigeonholing them into lawful is a stretch.


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2009)

Let's drop lawful also, then, but note their special opposition for demons.  After all, you can be CG and still want things to run smoothly if individualistically.


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2009)

Well said.


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## Leopold (Jul 13, 2009)

What about Neutral good?  The balance between law and chaos but more focused on good.

I'm reading over Encyclopedia of Angels by FFE (painful but helpful) and several angels in there are NG which would make some sense. Of course there are others that are CG as well.   Good seems to be the only sticking point, which shade mentioned above on my comment.


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## Shade (Jul 13, 2009)

These fellas have the same HD as planetars, but seem like they'd be a bit lower in the hierarchy.

Astral Deva scores:  Str 22, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 20
Planetar scores: Str 25, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 22, Wis 23, Cha 22

Since these guys seem more melee-oriented, how about the following?

Planetar scores: Str 24, Dex 18, Con 20, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 20?


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## freyar (Jul 13, 2009)

Let's leave the alignment the same as the core angels.

Slightly weaker than planetars?  Sounds good to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2009)

Agreed to slighty weaker than planetars. Aiming at a CR 15.


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Agreed to slighty weaker than planetars. Aiming at a CR 15.




Agreed, and the lack of 17th-level clerical spellcasting outta help.  

Added to Homebrews.

You know, these guys are 3 feet taller than planetars, and their exceptional strength is highlighted.  I'm thinking we should boost Str and Con beyond the planetar to differentiate them a bit more.

Planetars have +3 greatswords.  I'd recommend giving these fellas +3 cold iron weapons or +2 demonbane cold iron weapons.

I ported the SLAs from the original description, borrowing uses per day from the planetar (and nerfing ressurection to raise dead, like the planetar).  I'm thinking we should add a few more "demon-fighting" SLAs, like holy smite and dispel evil.   Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2009)

Agreed to +2 cold iron evil outsider bane weapons, higher Str and Con, and dispel evil and holy smite as SLAs. Dimensional anchor is also a good demon-hunting trick, so they can't get away.


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2009)

Nice call on dim anchor!

Updated.

I left a greatsword in place, but we can change to another weapon if desired.   A big, beefy sword seems appropriate, though.



> They add +3 to the morale of any Good creature who can see them.




Greater heroism aura?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2009)

Ooh. Aura of greater heroism I like.


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2009)

I like all that.

Instead of the greatsword, are there any angels that use a bastard sword?  Might be a fun point of differentiation if not.


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2009)

Nope.  All core angels have a greatsword or mace.

I'm fine with a bastard sword, though.  Maybe add a shield to further emphasize their martial focus?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 15, 2009)

Bastard sword and shield I like. I've definitely seen angels depicted with shield before (usually fighting dragons or Satan), but never in D&D.


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2009)

Updated.

Shall we make the shield magical?

Skills: 11 at 17 ranks
Planetar has Concentration, Craft or Knowledge (any four), Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Search, Spot

Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)(B), 5 more
Planetar has Blind-Fight, Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Power Attack
Gotta retain Power Attack (with a name like that)!   Maybe Improved Shield Bash in place of Blind-Fight?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 16, 2009)

Shield should totally be magical. +2 medium fortification?


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2009)

Sounds good!

Skills: 11 at 17 ranks
Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Search, Spot?

Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)(B), 5 more
Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Sunder, Power Attack?

A power is 12 feet tall and weighs about x pounds.  (Solars and planetars are 9 feet, 500 pounds)


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## Leopold (Jul 16, 2009)

Cleave, Great Cleave, Monkey Grip (Can we use those?), Improved Shield Bash, Improved Sunder


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2009)

Nope, can't use Monkey Grip (without additional explanation), but we don't really need it, since Exotic WP (bastard sword)(B) allows it to wield its blade one-handed.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 17, 2009)

Let's replace Improved Shield bash with Empower SLA (holy smite).


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## freyar (Jul 17, 2009)

Looking good!

Want to do anything with this? "The powers are divided into six groups: Logic, Creativity, Strength, Mercy, Legislation and Punishment."  If they got spellcasting, I'd say this sounds like domains.  Hrmph.


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## Leopold (Jul 17, 2009)

Are there any clerical domains associatd with those? I'd hate to go round and round creating domains for these beasts.


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## Shade (Jul 17, 2009)

Since they lack spellcasting, I think a mention in flavor text should suffice.

Do the suggested skills appeal?

A power is 12 feet tall and weighs about x pounds. (Solars and planetars are 9 feet, 500 pounds)


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 17, 2009)

All of those skills make sense to me.


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## Shade (Jul 17, 2009)

Updated.

It's odd having an angel with no healing ability...add cure light wounds 7/day like astral deva?

1,200 pounds?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 18, 2009)

Agreed. Alternately, we could play up its paladin-like martial nature and give it lay on hands instead. Actually, I like that better.


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## Shade (Jul 20, 2009)

Yeah, that makes good sense.   Treat as a paladin of a level equal to its Hit Dice?


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## freyar (Jul 20, 2009)

Sounds right!


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## Shade (Jul 20, 2009)

Actually, it probably makes more sense just to borrow this...

Lay on Hands (Su): As the paladin class feature, except that each day, a guardinal can heal an amount of damage equal to its full normal hit points.

Is 1,200 pounds appropriate?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 21, 2009)

The weight seems okay. And I like borrowing the guardinal's super lay on hands.


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2009)

That's all good to me, sure!


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

Updated.

Do we still want to work this into the flavor text?



> The powers are divided into six groups: Logic, Creativity, Strength, Mercy, Legislation and Punishment.




I'm all for dropping it, as it feels "tacked on" to me.


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2009)

Not a big deal to me either way.  We should play up the martial aspect in the tactics and probably flavor text, though.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 21, 2009)

Yeah, the spheres of influence don't really work with their martial aspect. Drop 'em.


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2009)

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2009)

Looks good!


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 23, 2009)

They have "spells" listed in their SA line in the statblock, and the SLA entry for flame strike has two "DCs" in it. Other than that, looks good.


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## Shade (Jul 23, 2009)

Fixed.

*Principalities*
The Order of the Principalities is entrusted with the duty of protecting religion, and its temples, and priests. They also (according to Dionysius) watch over the leaders of the people. With the leaders, their primary concern is to prevent the powers of evil from having too much sway. They prefer to work by inspiration rather than taking any direct action when dealing with earthly rulers.

If a temple of Good is being desecrated or a faithful follower is in great danger, there is a possibility that an angel of Principalities will intervene. They restrict their actions to the minimum necessary for protecting their charge. They never use more force than is necessary. If telling a bishop about an escape route will save him, for instance, they would never do more than that. If the bishop fails to heed the warning and is captured, the Principalities take little notice because they believe in allowing man his free will. If they are needed, the Principalities have the ability to gate in 1-4 angels (9th order). The Princes are: Nisroc, Hanieln, Requel, Cerviel, and Amael.

Frequency: Rare
Number appearing: 1
Armor Class: -4
Move: 9/18”
Hit Dice: 11
Number of Attacks: 1
Damage: 2-16
Special Attacks: See below
Special Defenses: +2 or better to hit
Magic Resistance: 55%
Intelligence: Exceptional
Alignment: Lawful Good
Size: M

Principalities will appear most often as a noble-looking king or high-level cleric. When possible, they will remain invisible and employ a powerful suggestion spell to impart their message. If needed, a Principality can employ any of these abilities one at a time, one per melee round: Command, Detect Charm, Detect Lie, Tongues (and its reverse), True Seeing, Suggestion, Invisibility, Ventriloquism, Confusion, Project Image. Once per day these Angels may use Flamestrike, Teleport (others), Restoration and Control Weather.

Christian angelic hierarchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 23, 2009)

It seems weird that angels devoted to the free will of man are all about the suggestion spells.


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2009)

That is a bit strange.  Perhaps rather than command and suggestion, spells like message, whispering wind, and dream would be more appropriate.  Or perhaps the suggestion and command are to stop vandals from attacking sacred places?


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## Shade (Jul 23, 2009)

That is indeed odd.

I like freyar's suggested replacements, or at the very least, to include his justifications for using such abilities within the flavor text.


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2009)

Perhaps we can mix it  up.

Down to nuts and bolts.  11HD -- just below monadic deva then?


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## Shade (Jul 23, 2009)

You mean *just above*, right?   Monadic deva has 10 HD.  This one is right in the middle of monadic and astral.

Monadic Abilities: Str 20, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 19
Astral Abilities: Str 22, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 20

So Str 21, Dex 17, Con 19, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 20?


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2009)

Oops, misread CR for HD on the monadic deva stats we had above.  Those ability scores sounds good to me.

Edit: actually, given that these are subtle manipulators, I could see bumping mental stats 1 or 2 points and decreasing some of the physical stats a corresponding amount.  What do you think?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 24, 2009)

Agreed for using suggestion for shooing away intruders. Agreed to mental going up and physical going down.


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## Shade (Jul 24, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Since they wield scepters, light or heavy mace?   It looks like it should be +3 and some property...defending perhaps?

Should the crown function as a magic item as well?  Perhaps as bracers of armor, ring of protection, or the like?


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## freyar (Jul 24, 2009)

I think I prefer light mace because somebody (monadic?) has a heavy mace already.  Defending sounds like the appropriate property, too.

Those ideas might work for the crown.  If we wanted something that normally fits the head slot, a hat of disguise or circlet of persuasion are inexpensive and thematic.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 24, 2009)

Circlet of persuasion and armor, perhaps?


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## freyar (Jul 24, 2009)

Nice idea.  I'll get on board with that.  +2 armor?  or more?


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2009)

+2 or even +4 works for me.


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## freyar (Jul 28, 2009)

Let's go +4.  Any more SAs on these?


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2009)

None that I can see, although we might want to add some more "free will" themed SLAs, like freedom of movement and break enchantment.


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2009)

Ahh, that did come to mind a week or so ago, didn't it.  Agreed to break enchantment at will? and freedom of movement 1/day?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 29, 2009)

Both of those sound just fine to me.


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2009)

Updated.

Natural armor?  Monadic deva is +12, while astral deva is +15.  Note that these guys get a +4 armor bonus from their crown.

Skills: 12 at 14 ranks

Feats: 4


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2009)

Either give them +10 or +12.  I prefer +12 if no one minds that they'd have the same AC as astrals.


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## Shade (Jul 31, 2009)

I'm fine with +12.

Thoughts on the feats and skills?


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## freyar (Jul 31, 2009)

Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Heal, Hide, Knowledge (any 2), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot ??

Negotiator, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Stealthy?

Negotiator and Stealthy for working in the background, and the other two seemed kind of defensive, at least in directing attacks away from some other target.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 1, 2009)

Replace Improved Feint with Improved Disarm, I think. More defensive.


----------



## freyar (Aug 1, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Replace Improved Feint with Improved Disarm, I think. More defensive.



Good point.  Agreed.


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## Shade (Aug 3, 2009)

Updated.

Spell resistance x?   Monadic deva is 22, while astral deva is 30.  Maybe 26?

Organization: Solitary or x

Challenge Rating: 13?  They are right between monadic and astral devas on the HD scale.

Advancement: 12-20 HD (Medium); 21-33 HD (Large)?

A principality is x feet tall and weighs about x pounds.


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## freyar (Aug 3, 2009)

SR 26

Solitary or Court? (2-6 plus X movanic devas?)

CR 13 is ok

Advancement is ok.

7-1/2 feet tall and weighs about 250 pounds.  (like astral deva)


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## freyar (Aug 3, 2009)

Silly servers, double post!


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2009)

Updated.

I think we may have forgotten this:



> If they are needed, the Principalities have the ability to gate in 1-4 angels (9th order).




Didn't we give a prior angel the ability to summon angels of the ninth order?


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2009)

I believe we did, maybe a couple of conversions back.  We can't forget to convert those!  So just 1d4 of them, automatic or say 35% chance?


----------



## Shade (Aug 5, 2009)

Found it!   Now that ENWorld's slow effect has been dispeled, I can actually search past conversions again.  

Summon Angels (Sp): Once per day, a virtue can can attempt to summon 1d3 angels of the ninth order or 1d3 movanic devas with a 50% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of an 8th-level spell.

Since the virtue was a weaker angel, I think your amount sounds fine, although we might want to improve the success rate.


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2009)

Yes, probably somewhere from 50-75%.  I'd be happy with 65%.


----------



## Shade (Aug 5, 2009)

Updated.

Anything left?


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2009)

Looks pretty good.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 6, 2009)

I think it's good to go.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2009)

*Archangels*
In Revelations 8:2, John refers to the seven Angels who stand before God. These are the Archangels, who head up the Heavenly Hosts. Enoch I lists them as Uriel, Raguel, Michael, Seraqael, Gabriel, Haniel, and Raphael. Their Leader is usually considered to be either Raphael or Michael. The Koran describes Michael as the Warrior Archangel, and he is normally considered to have headed the Heavenly Hosts that defeated the revoking angels led by Satan (Lucifer). Archangels are also used to carry messages of great import.

Frequency: Very rare
No. Appearing: 1
Armor Class: -3
Move: 9/24”
Hite Dice: 11
No. of Attacks: 1
Damage: 6-24 (6d4)
Special Attacks: See below
Special Defenses: +2 or better to hit
Magic Resistance: 55%
Intelligence: Genius
Alignment: Lawful Good
Size: L (10’ tall)

Each Archangel leads a Heavenly Host whose population has been estimated many times, never less than many thousands. When acting as messengers they travel alone, but have the ability to gate in as many of their Host as is needed (at 1-3 per round). Archangels may also use one of the following per melee round as often as desired: Spiritual Hammer (doing 9-12 points for 20 rounds), Chant (affects human  types only), Dispel Evil, Flame Strike, Insect Plague, Blade Barrier, and Call Lightning. Once per day they may use Earthquake, Holy Word, Symbol. Virtually never will an Archangel appear himself if less than a  massive attack of Devils is involved. Most often, Heaven’s Marshals will appear as a muscular, white-clad warrior of great beauty and charisma.

Christian angelic hierarchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2009)

Well, these are going to need way more than 11HD.

Interesting chance to make them unique, but I kind of think leaving them generic (ie, not "Michael," "Gabriel," etc) gives them broader appeal.  

Leave them LG or go to any good?


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2009)

I'd like to stick to "any good", not make them unique (all the other angels in that issue gave sample "named angels"), and I'm open to suggestions for Hit Dice.


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2009)

Ok, we're in agreement.  

As for HD, I figure these should be pretty high, based on the flavor (though perhaps demiurge will correct me, as he had some comment about this back when we did seraphim).  The seraphim were 44HD, but maybe that's too much.  We could back down near solars or something.

Might be nice to have a list of all we've converted.  If I'm up late tonight, maybe I'll do that.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 7, 2009)

Archangels should be low. Despite how they're referred to in popular parlance, archangels are near the bottom of the hierarchy. Seraphim and cherubim are closer in power to the popular conception of archangels.


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2009)

Is that the correct interpretation that the flavor text in the original monster has taken?


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2009)

Ok, here is the listing of angels, including the ones we've been converting, ordered by HD then CR.  I'm leaving off weapons and SAs for ours, and I'm also "classifying" them.  I didn't slot anything into the devas except for what we called devas, though.  So, where should archangels fit?  Are they leaders of lesser angel armies?

"Lesser" Angels:
Angel of Healing: CR 8, 7 HD, Str 10, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 17, Cha 17, DR 5/evil, SR 22
Agathion: CR 9, 7 HD, Str 19, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 18, Cha 17, DR 10/evil, SR 18
Light: CR 12, 10 HD, Str 1, Dex 18, Con 17, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 21, DR 10/evil, SR 22
Virtue: CR 12, 10 HD, Str 17, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 18, Wis 17, Cha 21, DR 10/evil, SR 22
Principality: CR 13, 11 HD, Str 18, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 19, Wis 19, Cha 22, DR 10/evil, SR 26

Devas:
Movanic Deva: CR 9, 6 HD, Str 17, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 16, Cha 18, DR 10/evil, SR 22, +1 flaming greatsword
Monadic Deva: CR 12, 10 HD, Str 20, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 19, DR 10/evil, SR 22, uncanny dodge, +3 mace of smiting
Astral Deva: CR 14, 12 HD, Str 22, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 20, DR 10/evil, SR 30, uncanny dodge, +3 heavy mace of disruption
Seraphic Deva: CR 17, 16 HD, Str 26, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 22, Wis 22, Cha 24, DR 15/evil, SR 37

"Greater" Angels:
Angel of Wrath: CR 13, 13 HD, Str 25, Dex 18, Con 20, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 20, DR 10/evil, SR 27
Angel of Mercy: CR 15, 14 HD, Str 23, Dex 19, Con 19, Int 20, Wis 22, Cha 22, DR 10/evil, SR 30
Power: CR 15, 14 HD, Str 27, Dex 18, Con 22, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 20, DR 10/evil, SR 30
Planetar: CR 16, 14 HD, Str 25, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 22, Wis 23, Cha 22, DR 10/evil, SR 30, regen 10, +3 greatsword
Dominion: CR 18, 19 HD, Str 23, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 27, DR 15/evil, SR 31
Solar: CR 23, 22 HD, Str 28, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 23, Wis 25, Cha 25, DR 15/epic and evil, SR 32, regen 15, +5 dancing greatsword
Thrones: CR 24, 29 HD, Str 32, Dex 25, Con 24, Int 26, Wis 27, Cha 29, DR 15/epic and evil, SR 34
Ophan: CR 24, 33 HD, Str 34, Dex 25, Con 26, Int 27, Wis 28, Cha 31, DR 20/epic and evil, SR 34
Cherubim: CR 25, 36 HD, Str 36, Dex 25, Con 28, Int 28, Wis 30, Cha 32, DR 20/epic and evil, SR 38
Seraphim: CR 27, 44 HD, Str 40, Dex 25, Con 30, Int 30, Wis 32, Cha 34, DR 20/epic and evil, SR 40


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 7, 2009)

I'm quite alright with the archangel falling into the "lesser" category.


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## Shade (Aug 7, 2009)

Freyar, you've got the planetar's HD and CR reversed.

How about we put them at the top of the "lesser" angels, and provide a wide range of advancement to account for the great generals among their caste?


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2009)

That's funny, I think I copied the planetar from your list at the top of the thread.   Fixed.

Putting them at the top of the lesser angels with broad advancement sounds right.  Speaking of which, I'm starting to wonder if the Angels of Wrath should be lesser angels (the martial ones, to correspond to the Powers among the greater angels).  That would put the Archangels at about 14HD.  Sound right, or do we want to stick to 11HD but enough abilities to put them above Principalities?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 7, 2009)

The archangels should be below the principalities, actually. 11 HD, aim for CR 12?

I do like the broad advancement, though.


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2009)

That's fine, sure.

Can you tell me the difference between lesser angels, devas, and greater angels?  Or is there not really such a distinction.


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## Shade (Aug 7, 2009)

Freyar, there's no real distinction.

In 1e, you essentially had the "etars" and the devas.  In 2e they mixed in what I called the "lesser" angels.

Also, the "etars" are more closely associated with their deities, while the devas are focused on specific planes.

The other angels trickled in later.

11 HD, CR 12 works.  

The CR 12 monadic deva's scores are Str 20, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 19.   I could see boosting Cha a bit since these guys are generally leaders.


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2009)

Thanks!

Cha to 23?  Any need to decrease anything to compensate?


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## Shade (Aug 7, 2009)

Upon reflection, that should have been simply "ars" rather than "etars".


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 8, 2009)

We could drop their Dex and give them plate armor.


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## freyar (Aug 9, 2009)

That sounds like a good idea for "generals," sure.


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2009)

Str 20, Dex 12, Con 20, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 23?


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## freyar (Aug 11, 2009)

That sounds about right.


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.



> Archangels may also use one of the following per melee round as often as desired: Spiritual Hammer (doing 9-12 points for 20 rounds), Chant (affects human  types only), Dispel Evil, Flame Strike, Insect Plague, Blade Barrier, and Call Lightning. Once per day they may use Earthquake, Holy Word, Symbol.




Some of those are awfully powerful for "at will" at their HD.  I'd recommend moving blade barrier, call lightning, flame strike, and insect plague to 3/day.

Chant can probably be replaced with prayer.



> When acting as messengers they travel alone, but have the ability to gate in as many of their Host as is needed (at 1-3 per round).




Shall we give them a summon angel ability, usuable more than once per day?


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## freyar (Aug 11, 2009)

Agreed to the SLA changes.  

Also, probably 3/day summon angels, lots of "lesser" angels or maybe a few devas, automatic success.


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2009)

Updated.

Which symbol spells should it get?

What other angel SLAs shall we add?

Shall we add agathions and angels of healing to the summon options?   Perhaps we should add an underbar for advanced archangels, expanding their summoning power to include angels of wrath and astral devas for the "great general" level ones?


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## freyar (Aug 12, 2009)

Symbols of persuasion, stunning, and maybe pain and sleep?  

Your summoning ideas sound good.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 12, 2009)

I'd move all of those you call 3/day to 1/day, honestly. They're pretty serious.


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## Shade (Aug 13, 2009)

Fair enough.  Updated.

Looking at the other angels, I'd recommend we add continual flame, detect evil, discern lies, dispel magic, and holy smite as at will SLAs, and plane shift 3/day.   Most angels have raise dead at least 1/day, even the lowly movanic deva.


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## freyar (Aug 13, 2009)

I'm happy with those suggestions.  For the summoning, maybe 1d6, 1d4, 1d3, 1, and 1 respectively?  Not entirely sure.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 13, 2009)

The suggested SLAs are fine by me.


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## Shade (Aug 13, 2009)

Updated.



> Virtually never will an Archangel appear himself if less than a  massive attack of Devils is involved.




Shall we give them a silver greatsword since they seem inclined to fight devils?   It should also be +3 with another property, if compared to similar-powered angels.

It looks like, for their CR, around +12 natural armor, giving them a total AC of 20.  That's a tad poor compared to other angels, so I'd recommend a slight boost to natural armor, maybe magical full plate, and perhaps switching to bastard sword and shield again.   Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 13, 2009)

I like magical full plate, a silver sword (perhaps evil outsider bane).

Wait. With +12 natural armor, their AC will be 30 (10 + 8 for plate + 12 for natural). You forgot the base 10. Which is a pretty reasonable number.


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## Shade (Aug 13, 2009)

Oops, I sure did.  Yeah, 30 is more than adequate.


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## freyar (Aug 13, 2009)

I'll agree to all that.  Including evil outsider bane silvered sword.


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## Shade (Aug 14, 2009)

Updated.

Spell resistance 22 like the equal CR monadic deva?

Skills: 11 at 14 ranks (includes -6 armor check penalty)
Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot...

Feats: 4
Leadership isn't really appropriate for monsters, is it?


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## freyar (Aug 14, 2009)

SR 22 works.

Those skills plus Disguise, Gather Information, Knowledge (religion), Ride?  Or I could see Survival for tracking down fiends.  Or Heal.  What do you think?

No, I don't think we should use Leadership.   I was almost tempted to go for Whirlwind Attack, but there aren't enough feats for that.  How about Empower SLA (prayer), Stand Still, Power Attack, Lightning Reflexes?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 14, 2009)

Prayer doesn't have any die rolls to empower, unfortunately. I like Stand Still, though.

We could Empower (spiritual weapon). And change it from "hammer" to "weapon" in the SLA writeup.


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## freyar (Aug 14, 2009)

Oops, I was thinking of the wrong thing when I said prayer.  Spiritual weapon works, though.


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## Shade (Aug 14, 2009)

Updated.

Organization: Solitary, pair, or host (x archangels plus x-x lesser angels)

Challenge Rating: 12 still work?

Advancement: 12-22 HD (Large); 23-50 HD (Huge)  [we discussed a wide range of advancement; this puts their best above the mightiest planetars, but not solars]

An archangel is 10 feet tall and weighs about x pounds.


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## freyar (Aug 15, 2009)

These actually seem about as good as CR 14 astral devas, though I admit I'm fudging when looking at SLAs.  

Host is maybe 3 archangels and 12-100 lesser angels?

700 lb?  They're actually bigger than solars, if you believe it!


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 15, 2009)

How about a compromise of CR 13?


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2009)

Updated.

For the Advanced Archangels section, should we note that caster level advances equal to Hit Dice (max 20th)?   How about damage reduction improving to 15/epic and evil and regeneration improving to 15 at 23 HD?  Spell resistance retaining ratio of CR+9?   

Do we want to grant additional spell-like abilities at the higher range as well?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 17, 2009)

We could pull some of their 1/day into higher usage.


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2009)

Updated.

How does that look?


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## freyar (Aug 17, 2009)

Looks fine!


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 18, 2009)

Looks good.


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## Shade (Aug 18, 2009)

The last one from that article!

*Angels of the Ninth Order*
By far the largest number of Angels belong to this order. These are the multitudes of Angels that make up the Celestial Host and Choirs. They are also the most-used Angels for the carrying of messages, warnings, etc. to other planes. They serve also at the call of the angels of the other orders and assist them in their tasks. Among these angels the Princes (Sergeants) are: Phaleg, Adnachiel, Gabriel, and Chayliel. 

Frequency: Uncommon
No. appearing: 1 or 1-4
Armor Class: -4
Move: 9/18
Hit Dice: 6-8
Number of attacks: 1
Damage: 4-24 (4d6)
Special Attacks: See below
Special Defenses: +1 or better to hit
Magic Resistance: 50%
Intelligence: High
Alignment: Lawful Good
Size: L (9’ tall)

The Angelic hosts can appear in any form they choose. Most commonly they appear as human warriors with white robes and Holy Swords or Hammers which only they can use. They are capable of meleeing and invoking a miracle simultaneously. When not combating evil, Angels will assume the appearance of a pleasantly featured human. Angels may employ one of the following per melee round: Cure Light Wounds, Purify Food and Drink, Hold Person, Tongues, Plane Shift (others), Speak with Dead, Blade Barrier, and Cure Disease. Once per day the Angel may Control Weather as a 12th level Druid.


A particular group of cabalistic Throne Angels are closely involved in the magic arts and can be invoked by Good Magic Users. They are knowledgable in all matters arcane, but part with any knowledge reluctantly, feeling that a Magic User is best served by advancing himself through his own efforts. In the Sixth and Seventh Books of Moses, 15 of these Angels are mentioned, including: Thronus, Techom, Haseha, Amarzyom, Schawayt, Chuscha, Zawar, Yahel, Adoyahel and five others.

Angels are also assigned to look after the seasons and their manifestations. This list is based on those in The Magus:
Spring—Spugliguel is the governing Angel, for rebirth, planting,
and new beginnings.
Summer—Tubiel, for heat, flame, lightning and storms.
Fall—Torquaret, for harvests, gathering wealth, colors.
Winter—Attarib, for cold, ice, darkness.

Christian angelic hierarchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## freyar (Aug 18, 2009)

And pretty important for summoning purposes, too.

Start at 6 HD and make these the weakest ones?  

Should we have an additional name for them?  "Angels of the 9th Order" is a bit long.


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## Shade (Aug 18, 2009)

Yes to 6 HD.

"Common Angels"?  "Lesser Angels"?

The 6-HD movanic deva has Str 17, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 16, Cha 18

Should we rearrange a bit?

Also, I find it odd that the "rank n' file" angels are 9 feet tall!


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## freyar (Aug 18, 2009)

Maybe that's why they're from the 9th order! 

"Common Angels" works.

Sure, let's rearrange the movanic a bit.  Str 18, Dex 17, Con 18, Int 15, Wis 17, Cha 16?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 18, 2009)

Common angels works for me.


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## Shade (Aug 18, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

AC translates to 24.  Assuming similar natural armor to the movanic deva (+8), shall we give them either half plate (+7, but negates Dex bonus) or breastplate and light steel shield?



> Angels may employ one of the following per melee round: Cure Light Wounds, Purify Food and Drink, Hold Person, Tongues, Plane Shift (others), Speak with Dead, Blade Barrier, and Cure Disease. Once per day the Angel may Control Weather as a 12th level Druid.




How's this?

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—cure light wounds, hold person, purify food and drink, remove disease; 1/day—speak with dead; 1/day—blade barrier, control weather (caster level 12th) plane shift. Caster level 6th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Aug 18, 2009)

Did you mean 3/day for speak with dead?  The SLA list looks fine besides that.

I kind of like the shield and breastplate, though maybe that's not the common image.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 19, 2009)

I like the shield and breastplate. Like I said earlier, I've seen plenty of angels with shields. They tend to be fighting dragons.


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2009)

Yeah, 3/day for speak with dead.

Longsword or bastard sword?


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2009)

Boy, we've really run through the swords with these angels, haven't we.  The smart-aleck in me wants to say "two-bladed sword!" but we should probably go with the more iconic longsword, don't you think?


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2009)

Yeah, since these are going to (theoretically) be the most commonly encountered, the most common weaponry just makes good sense.


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2009)

Let's do longsword, then.  Just make it magic, or give it some other enhancement too?  Maybe defending or mighty cleaving if we haven't used one of those yet?


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2009)

> Most commonly they appear as human warriors with white robes and Holy Swords or Hammers which only they can use.




Since these are the rank-and-file, why don't we give them ability that any weapon they wield is treated as a +1 mighty cleaving weapon?   That way the aftermath of an angelic battle vs. fiends won't be littered with magic weapons.


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2009)

Excellent.  Should we mention that they are also fond of warhammers or even put that as an alternate attack line?


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2009)

I think "fond of" flavor text should suffice.


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2009)

Ok, so we just need an ability to have the weapon not work for anyone else.  How's that usually worded?

Weapon (Su): Angels of the 9th order carry _+1 mighty cleaving longswords_ or _+1 mighty cleaving warhammers_.  If separated from the owner, these weapons become ordinary, nonmagical weapons.  Their magic is an inherent property of the angel, not the weapon.


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2009)

While that will work, I was thinking more along the lines of...

Holy Armaments (Su):  Any nonmagical melee weapon wielded by an angel of the Ninth Order is treated as a +1 mighty cleaving weapon.  Should the weapon be separated from the angel, it loses these bonuses.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 20, 2009)

Holy Armament looks good to me.


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2009)

Yes, I like that too.

Ready for feats?  Power Attack and Cleave are required, unless you want to make Cleave a bonus feat.  Actually, I kind of like Cleave as a bonus feat, given the inherent ability of the weapon.  What do you guys think?


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2009)

All the better to wade through fiendish hordes.  

Skills: 11 at 9 ranks
Give 'em all the common angel skills (Concentration, Diplomacy, Knowledge (any x), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot), and from the less common angel skills, add Hide, Intimidate, Search?


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2009)

Yes.  Probably also add Heal, so it's Knowledge (any 1).


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2009)

Good call.  Updated.

CR 9?  (Like the similarly-powered movanic deva)

Spell resistance 20?  (Assuming 50% at CR 9)

Advancement: 7-18 HD (Large)?

A common angel is 9 feet tall and weighs about x pounds.


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2009)

That all sounds good.  500 lb?


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2009)

Updated.


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## Shade (Aug 21, 2009)

What's left here?


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## freyar (Aug 21, 2009)

Looks done, I think!  These ended up being tougher than I'd thought from the earlier hints in other angel descriptions.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 22, 2009)

freyar said:


> Looks done, I think!  These ended up being tougher than I'd thought from the earlier hints in other angel descriptions.




I think that's due to the article's insistence to give everything blade barrier.


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2009)

freyar said:


> Looks done, I think!  These ended up being tougher than I'd thought from the earlier hints in other angel descriptions.






demiurge1138 said:


> I think that's due to the article's insistence to give everything blade barrier.




Indeed.  Do we want to tone them down a bit?


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## freyar (Aug 25, 2009)

Well, the only lower CR angel is the angel of healing, so it's probably ok, unless we really want them to be quite weak.  We might want to revisit the angels that could summon these, though, just to make sure that the summoning isn't too strong.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 25, 2009)

I'd be okay with taking blade barrier off of these guys. The rest of their SLAs aren't bad, but blade barrier is a really good spell to be giving to the rank-and-file.


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2009)

Sure, let's yank the overused blade barrier.  Does that affect CR at all?


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## freyar (Aug 25, 2009)

They might just be CR 8 now.  We could also adjust down the resistances and DR to solidify that.

But I just realized that I'm not happy with the feats.  In particular, Great Cleave is useless with the mighty cleaving weapons.  I also kind of like making Cleave a bonus feat.  Maybe Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Stand Still, Cleave*?*


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2009)

Sounds good to me.  Any opposed?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 26, 2009)

I say thee nay!


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## freyar (Aug 26, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I say thee nay!



Umm, how many negatives is that?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 26, 2009)

Just the one. CR 8 and finished.


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## Shade (Aug 26, 2009)

CR 8 it is!   Updated.

Now we move into the "and possibly other heavenly creatures" portion of this thread...

*Air Maiden*
ARMOR CLASS: -5
MOVE: 48”
HIT POINTS: 85
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8 (+7)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Sword
SPECIAL DEFENSES: None
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 50%
SIZE: M (6’ tall)
ALIGNMENT: Lawful Good
Cleric/Druid: 7th level cleric
Fighter:  16th level fighter
M-U/Illusionist: 7th-level magic-user
Thief/Assassin: Nil
Monk/Bard: Nil
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
S: 19 (+3/+7) I: 19 W: 19 D: 19 C: 19 CH: 19

An air maiden appears as a winged human with a sword, garbed in flowing robes, and glowing with a brilliant light.  Only one air maiden will appear at a time.  Each maiden is armed with a +3 frost brand sword.  When sent by Ukko, a maiden will first advise the worshiper as to the best course of action, using telepathy; if necessary, a maiden will enter combat thereafter.  Although having few magical abilities, each maiden is 50% magic resistant, and may fly (at up to 48”) without tiring.  Should an air maiden be slain before her mission is completed, another will immediately appear.  If a maiden is slain, she and all her possessions (including the sword) will vanish.

Originally appeared in Deities and Demigods Cyclopedia (1980).


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 26, 2009)

Hm. How do we want to handle the fact that these guys are 7th level cleric and magic-users?


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## Shade (Aug 26, 2009)

Divide by 4.5 rule gives it 18 HD, so innate spellcasting is definitely not out of the question.   Perhaps they cast cleric spells as arcane spells? 

Ukko is "the master of the sky and air, and supports the world.  He thus is responsible for all weather and protects all avian life."   So we could also throw in a few domains, like Air, Protection, and Weather.


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## freyar (Aug 26, 2009)

Hmm, or we could just do two different "spells" abilities.  If we just stuck with one, we'd end up with much higher level spells to get the right spells/day, though I guess that's not a deal breaker.  Either way.  Suggested domains sound good.


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## Shade (Aug 26, 2009)

True.  There's no reason we can't do both.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 26, 2009)

I like the giving them innate spellcasting, with domains.


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## freyar (Aug 26, 2009)

Just innate sorc spellcasting with domains, or separate sorc/cleric innate casting?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 27, 2009)

Innate sorc casting but can cast cleric and domain spells, like the better dragons.


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## Shade (Aug 27, 2009)

Fair enough.  Stick with 7th-level caster?

For ability scores, 1e Str 19 becomes Str 24 in 3e.   Keeping the rest of the abilities at 19 might actually work, as it is only slightly inferior to a planetar (Str 25, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 22, Wis 23, Cha 22).  I'm fine with a slight boost here or there if you'd like.


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## freyar (Aug 27, 2009)

Caster level needs to be a bit higher to give them enough spell slots.  I'd guess at least 10th, but planetars are CL 17 at only 14HD, so there's room for a boost.

Flying without tiring suggests either good Con or a special ability, and giving advice suggests either good Int or Wis.  Str 24, Dex 19, Con 22, Int 19, Wis 22, Cha 19 maybe?


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## Shade (Aug 27, 2009)

Looking at the 1e planetar, it casts as both a 7th-level cleric and 7th-level druid, so we can probably just use the same caster level as the planetar.

The ability scores appeal.


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## freyar (Aug 27, 2009)

In that case, since the planetar now casts as a cleric, we might consider making these cast as clerics with some "magicky" domains (Magic domain, for one).


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 27, 2009)

I prefer sorcerer with cleric-y spells, rather than vice versa. 

I like freyar's ability scores.


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## freyar (Aug 28, 2009)

Well, these aren't necessarily angels, so sorc plus cleric works.  Sorc that can choose from cleric spell list, or just a few domains?  Like Air, Good, and Healing plus maybe one more?


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## Shade (Aug 31, 2009)

I think sorc plus all cleric spells and specific domains (like many dragons).  That way the original spell possibilities will be retained.


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## freyar (Aug 31, 2009)

Works for me, then.  Air and Good domains seem like a given.  Healing also, anything else?


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## Shade (Aug 31, 2009)

Since Ukko is "the master of the sky and air, and supports the world. He thus is responsible for all weather and protects all avian life", I think we should include Protection and Weather.


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## freyar (Aug 31, 2009)

Let's drop Healing, then, and give them Air, Good, Protection, and Weather to go with cleric.  Sound right?


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## Shade (Aug 31, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Aug 31, 2009)

Since the sword vanishes when the air maiden dies, should it be a property of the air maiden?


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## Shade (Aug 31, 2009)

Good point.  We can borrow holy armaments from the last angel.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 1, 2009)

Agreed to domains and the holy armament.


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2009)

In retrospect, the holy armament seems less appropriate than a variation of this:

Summon Weapon (Su): An aurumach can be armed in an instant by magically summoning a golden, Huge +3 halberd. When separated from the aurumach, the weapon vanishes. An aurumach can summon or dispel its own weapon as a free action.

So something like this?

Frostblade (Su): An air maiden can be armed in an instant by magically summoning a frost brand. When separated from the air maiden, the weapon vanishes. An air maiden can summon or dismiss its own weapon as a swift action.

This +3 frost greatsword sheds light as a torch when the temperature drops below 0°F. At such times it cannot be concealed when wielded, nor can its light be shut off.  The air maiden receives resistance to fire 10 while wielding its frostblade. 

A frost brand extinguishes all nonmagical fires in its area. As a standard action, it can also dispel lasting fire spells, but not instantaneous effects, though the air maiden must succeed on a dispel check (1d20+14) against each spell to dispel it. The DC to dispel such spells is 11 + the caster level of the fire spell.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 1, 2009)

That frost brand looks pretty good to me.


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2009)

Spells: An air maiden casts spells as a 17th-level sorcerer, and can also cleric spells and those from the Air, Good, Protection, and Weather domains as arcane spells. 

Typical Sorcerer Spells Known (6/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/4, save DC 14 + spell level):
0—9;
1st—sanctuary, 4 more;
2nd—gust of wind, shield other, whispering wind, wind wall, 1  more;
3rd—call lightning, sleet storm, 3 more;
4th—freedom of movement, holy smite, ice storm, 1 more;
5th—call lightning storm, cone of cold, control winds, 1 more;
6th—chain lightning, heal, 1 more;
7th—control weather, 2 more;
8th—holy aura, whirlwind.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 1, 2009)

1st--cure light wounds, divine favor, mage armor, shield
2nd--blur
3rd--cure serious wounds, haste, lightning bolt,
4th--shout
5th--drop call lightning storm and add righteous might and telekinesis
6th--greater dispel magic
7th--greater teleport, reverse gravity


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2009)

Updated.

We might want to work in plane shift as either a spell (maybe with Extra Spell feat) or as a SLA, to explain how they arrive on the Material Plane.

0—cure minor wounds, detect magic, guidance, light, mage hand, mending, read magic, ray of frost, virtue?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 1, 2009)

We could replace reverse gravity with plane shift pretty easily. Unless they cast it as clerics, in which case I could stand to see telekinesis go.


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## Shade (Sep 2, 2009)

Since they can cast as clerics, lets drop telekinesis.

Updated.



> Although having few magical abilities, each maiden is 50% magic resistant, and may fly (at up to 48”) without tiring.




We might be able to adapt this gift from Santa...

Tireless Travel (Su): Santa's reindeer can travel any distance in a single night without tiring. Afterwards, they are exhausted, and must rest for at least a week to remove this condition.



> Should an air maiden be slain before her mission is completed, another will immediately appear.




Some strange from of summon, contingent upon an air maiden's death?



> If a maiden is slain, she and all her possessions (including the sword) will vanish.




I'd say that's a strong case for "Treasure: None".


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## freyar (Sep 2, 2009)

I think I'd agree with all that.  The contingent summon is a nice idea.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 3, 2009)

Yeah, the contingent summoning could be interesting, but the summoned one shouldn't be able to pull more in.


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2009)

Updated.

Since they are servants of a air and weather deity, I think we should give them something similar to the Weather domain's granted power:

Granted Power: Inclement weather has less of an effect on you. Rain and snow don't penalize your Spot and Search checks. You can move through snow-covered and icy terrain at your normal movement. Wind effects, whether natural or magical, affect you as if you were one size category larger.

Alternatively, we could just make them immune to the effects of wind upon their flight.


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2009)

How about this?

Weatherborn (Ex): Air Maidens, as servants of a weather god, are largely unaffected by weather.  Weather (including wind, rain, and snow) does not penalize their Listen, Search, or Spot checks.  Air Maidens are also immune to the effects of wind (natural or magical) on their movement.


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2009)

Fantastic!

Updated.

Their AC is a bit poor, compared to comparable angels.  Boost to +20 (a tad higher than the lesser HD planetar)?


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2009)

+20 natural works for me.


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2009)

Skills: 12 at 21 ranks
Diplomacy, Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion)...

Feats: 7
Empower Spell, Flyby Attack...


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 4, 2009)

Combat Expertise, Empower Spell, Flyby Attack, Greater Spell Focus (evocation), Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Spell Focus (evocation)


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2009)

Feats are good.

Skills: Concentration, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Hide, Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival ?  I figure the sneakiness and Gather Info may help with giving advice in an inobtrusive way, but I'm not 100% on those.


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2009)

Updated.

CR 17-18?  They're only slightly better than planetars.

Organization: Solitary, pair, or storm (3-12)?

Advancement: 19-36 HD (Medium); 37-54 HD (Large)?

An air maiden is 6 feet tall and weighs about 175 pounds?

Air maidens speak Auran, Celestial, and Draconic, though they can communicate telepathically with any creature that has a language?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 4, 2009)

CR 17 works for me. I like the language options.


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2009)

CR 17 and all the rest is fine.


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2009)

Updated.

What's left?


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2009)

They appear to be all done!


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 5, 2009)

Looks good to me.


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