# Reincarnation and gender of the new form.



## sullivan (Mar 30, 2005)

Is your sex determined randomly during Reincarnation, or does it always remain the same? This popped into my head because of the Ring of Sustinance thread, but it's something that I've been curious if there is any semi-offical word on.

Gaming story: This actually came up once with a character of mine, a Dwarf that was delusional in thinking he was an Elf. At one point he died with no readily available means of Raise Dead or Resurection. On a whim the party Druid said "Hey, I'll Reincarnate him and see what happens." The roll comes up *tada* Elf.  However the GM said the gender was random, and it changed male to female.  So rather than basically curing a psychological identity problem he/she ended up just substituting one for another.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Mar 30, 2005)

RAW, it remains the same.  Reincarnation affects only your race / species.

However, it's not a far stretch to rule that random sex changes can happen as well - but it is a stretch.


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## Saeviomagy (Mar 31, 2005)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> RAW, it remains the same.  Reincarnation affects only your race / species.
> 
> However, it's not a far stretch to rule that random sex changes can happen as well - but it is a stretch.



Given the amount of players who don't like to cross the gender line, it's probably a bad stretch unless the player in question asks for it...


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## sullivan (Mar 31, 2005)

Saeviomagy said:
			
		

> Given the amount of players who don't like to cross the gender line, it's probably a bad stretch unless the player in question asks for it...




True, I forget that the people I game with normally aren't nearly as squimish as most about such things. WotC might have even rejected writing possible gender changes into the rules because of that. They got rid of the specific gender-bender cursed items, though the drawback is still an entry on the random roll list.


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## frankthedm (Mar 31, 2005)

Shame the girdle is not a specific item any more.  

Great thing you can put it on any item as a drawback.


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## reanjr (Mar 31, 2005)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> RAW, it remains the same.  Reincarnation affects only your race / species.
> 
> However, it's not a far stretch to rule that random sex changes can happen as well - but it is a stretch.




What if something is reincarnated as a species that doesn't have a gender.  Or one which only has females.  Or a hermaphroditic species.  What happens in these cases (both to and from)?


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## Viktyr Gehrig (Mar 31, 2005)

reanjr said:
			
		

> What if something is reincarnated as a species that doesn't have a gender.  Or one which only has females.  Or a hermaphroditic species.  What happens in these cases (both to and from)?




 When reincarnated *into* a sexless, hermaphroditic, or single-sexed race, I'd say that the race's physiology overrides-- the character becomes sexless, hermaphroditic, or of the appropriate sex.

 When reincarnated *out of* such a race, I'd say that the character's sense of identity more or less forces the new form to correspond-- the player picks the character's new sex. For truly and utterly genderless characters, a random roll would be appropriate, also at the player's option.

 I'm more or less comfortable with genderbent characters because of my own predilection towards playing sexless races. However, I understand why a lot of people have problems with that, and forcing such a situation on the player/character is just sick, in my opinion.


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## Al (Apr 1, 2005)

IMC Reincarnated characters roll randomly for gender.  Needless to say, if the race is genderless, this is a moot point.


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## Gez (Apr 1, 2005)

I've a DM that make it another roll. Odd you're male, even female.

That way, a male dwarf became a female elf!

But the funniest part was not the sex change. It was the racial ability adjustment change. From a Dwarf with average Con (10) to a sickly Elf (6 Con). Did I say the character was a Fighter? And that he was killed, the first time, by Wyvern venom? 

Myself, I roll neither. As a DM, I chose what the target gets reincarnated into. Because I want it to depends on where the _reincarnation_ spell is cast (so it'll always be a race that is common enough in the area, never something exotic), and I want it to depend also on the race and sex of the slain character.


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## Lord Pendragon (Apr 1, 2005)

sullivan said:
			
		

> True, I forget that the people I game with normally aren't nearly as squimish as most about such things. WotC might have even rejected writing possible gender changes into the rules because of that. They got rid of the specific gender-bender cursed items, though the drawback is still an entry on the random roll list.



I don't think a disinclination to play a gender change is necessarily squeemish.  Some people, such as myself, prefer to play the gender of the character we've created, whether that starts out as a spartan young man from a hidden city of demon-slaying fighter-mages, or a teenaged girl who pulled herself up from the streets to begin a career as an actress and an acrobat.  In either case, the focus of the character is on other things, rather than a cheap gender-change mid-campaign.

IMO _Reincarnation_ has enough of a disincentive to its use in the uncontrollable racial change (most half-orcs I've seen played would rather stay dead than risk coming back as an elf,) without throwing in a gender change as well.


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## The_Universe (Apr 1, 2005)

I run a different kind of reincarnation, anyway - characters can only return in an existing, nearby body.  The availability determines the sex and race, rather than the standard table.


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## Kemrain (Apr 1, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> I run a different kind of reincarnation, anyway - characters can only return in an existing, nearby body.  The availability determines the sex and race, rather than the standard table.



Wouldn't that just encourage people to steal bodies with better physical stats than theirs?

- Kemrain the Bodysnatcher.


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## The_Universe (Apr 1, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Wouldn't that just encourage people to steal bodies with better physical stats than theirs?
> 
> - Kemrain the Bodysnatcher.



It would. 

But the campaign has a general prohibition against resurrection-type spells, anyway, which help balance them (If reincarnate is a crime, only criminals will reincarnate! ). As it is, it is a powerful motivator for the Evil of the world to dabble in dark magics (such as reincarnation). Without really changing much of the rules, it gives a usually beneficial magic a sinister cast.


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## Kemrain (Apr 1, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> It would.
> 
> But the campaign has a general prohibition against resurrection-type spells, anyway, which help balance them (If reincarnate is a crime, only criminals will reincarnate! ). As it is, it is a powerful motivator for the Evil of the world to dabble in dark magics (such as reincarnation). Without really changing much of the rules, it gives a usually beneficial magic a sinister cast.



Wow.. It's people like you that make me love being evil. Kick ass.

- Kemrain the Impressed.. And [Evil]!


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## The_Universe (Apr 1, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Wow.. It's people like you that make me love being evil. Kick ass.
> 
> - Kemrain the Impressed.. And [Evil]!



 Huzzah.

-The Universe, who favors Kemrain the [Evil]


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Apr 1, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Huzzah.
> 
> -The Universe, who favors Kemrain the [Evil]




Is this the same campaign in which Queen Poppledopoppopolis [sp?  ] is playing?


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## The_Universe (Apr 1, 2005)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> Is this the same campaign in which Queen Poppledopoppopolis [sp?  ] is playing?



 Of course. I have only one campaign going at a time. 

And it's Dopplepopolis.  Dop-el-pop-uh-lis.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Apr 1, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Of course. I have only one campaign going at a time.
> 
> And it's Dopplepopolis.  Dop-el-pop-uh-lis.





I know ... I just got going with those p's and o's, and I just couldn't stop!


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## The_Universe (Apr 1, 2005)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> I know ... I just got going with those p's and o's, and I just couldn't stop!



 It's alright.  Even I don't spell it correctly most of the time. 

But I think we're hijacking a thread, so...

*How about that reincarnation? Eh?*


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## Kemrain (Apr 1, 2005)

I think it's a pity the rules dont allow for gender change.  I mean, whay's the point in dying if I can't come back as a.. Well, something else.  Reading the spell description.. You come back as a youn adult.  So, if you're willing to lose a level every once in a while, get yourself killed before you croak naturally, and accept a good chance of a new race, this seems a great way to get out of dying of old age!

- Kemrain the [Evil] and Immortal!


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## Len (Apr 1, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> I think it's a pity the rules dont allow for gender change.  I mean, whay's the point in dying if I can't come back as a.. Well, something else.



That's what one of my co-players thinks. He was disappointed recently when his human fighter was reincarnated as a half-elf. He was hoping for something more interesting, like kobold. But fortunately the rules _do_ allow rolling for gender, if the DM requires it, and he was quite happy to come back female.

When we went back to defeat the BBG who had killed him he gave the same battle cry as before, except an octave higher.


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## moritheil (Apr 5, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> I think it's a pity the rules dont allow for gender change. I mean, whay's the point in dying if I can't come back as a.. Well, something else. Reading the spell description.. You come back as a youn adult. So, if you're willing to lose a level every once in a while, get yourself killed before you croak naturally, and accept a good chance of a new race, this seems a great way to get out of dying of old age!
> 
> - Kemrain the [Evil] and Immortal!




Sure, if you can keep finding druids of appropriate level that don't catch on that you're trying to circumvent the natural order of your life, I don't see why not.  But sooner or later you'll be spending a life as a badger or something.  (Might be good or bad depending on your whims.)


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## Viktyr Gehrig (Apr 5, 2005)

moritheil said:
			
		

> Sure, if you can keep finding druids of appropriate level that don't catch on that you're trying to circumvent the natural order of your life, I don't see why not.




 I'm not sure that using _reincarnation_ in this fashion *is* circumventing the natural order-- it's a Druid spell, after all, and it provides a new, young body every time. You're merely keeping your spirit in circulation.


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## Aust Diamondew (Apr 5, 2005)

moritheil said:
			
		

> Sure, if you can keep finding druids of appropriate level that don't catch on that you're trying to circumvent the natural order of your life, I don't see why not.  But sooner or later you'll be spending a life as a badger or something.  (Might be good or bad depending on your whims.)



 I'm pretty sure 3.5 reincranation makes you come back as a critter of the same type (ie humanoid, giant etc) that you normally are.  So if you're playing 3.5 you're in the clear as far as avoinding coming back as a badger goes.


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## Khayman (Apr 5, 2005)

Aust Diamondew said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure 3.5 reincranation makes you come back as a critter of the same type (ie humanoid, giant etc) that you normally are.  So if you're playing 3.5 you're in the clear as far as avoinding coming back as a badger goes.




Try handing out Reincarnate scrolls to low-level casters. The mayhem that ensues when the scroll is miscast is an evil DM's dream. Badgers are one of the more benign possibilities.

_Badgers? We don' need no steenking badgers..._


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## Quasqueton (Apr 5, 2005)

Way back in one of my AD&D1 campaigns, a PC male elf fighter/magic-user died. Back then, elves couldn't be raised, so they got a druid to reincarnate him. The random roll, right from the book, came up dryad. So the result was a female dryad magic-user. They hired a cleric to exercise the dryad from her tree, and then the dryad charmed him into a "cohort". 

A few adventures later, that female dryad magic-user died, and the reincarnate brought it back as a [male] ogre. We retired that campaign, at that point.

Quasqueton


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## Jack Simth (Apr 6, 2005)

Aust Diamondew said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure 3.5 reincranation makes you come back as a critter of the same type (ie humanoid, giant etc) that you normally are. So if you're playing 3.5 you're in the clear as far as avoinding coming back as a badger goes.



Just 99% of the time - there is an "other" entry way down at the bottom for 100.

Hmm.... does that roll qualify as a "Variable, Numeric effect"?  If so, MAXIMIZE IT!!!!! (Empower works too, but is a little more random (and what happens if you roll a 90?  90* 1.5 = 135, off the chart....))  Really make people's lives interesting..... Especially if they are hiring an NPC caster under DM controll.....


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## moritheil (Apr 6, 2005)

I'm pointing out that it's open to DM interpretation. The DM can very plausibly say, "The Druid believes that to continually reincarnate you, keeping you on this plane with knowledge of your prior life, is against his understanding of the natural order of things. Therefore he refuses."

And Jack Simth, yes, that's what I'm talking about.  Very humorous interpretation of "variable effect," though.



			
				Korimyr the Rat said:
			
		

> I'm not sure that using _reincarnation_ in this fashion *is* circumventing the natural order-- it's a Druid spell, after all, and it provides a new, young body every time. You're merely keeping your spirit in circulation.


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## Jack Simth (Apr 6, 2005)

moritheil said:
			
		

> And Jack Simth, yes, that's what I'm talking about. Very humorous interpretation of "variable effect," though.



I just have fun sometimes with things that are technically by the book - for example, an Archmage could conjour a (confused) Electricity Elemental (Or Acid, or Sonic, or cold) (it's confused because it was previously a Fire elemental; VERY confused if you go with Cold....) with the Summon Monster spells and the _Mastery of Elements_ class ability.


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## Banshee16 (Apr 6, 2005)

reanjr said:
			
		

> What if something is reincarnated as a species that doesn't have a gender.  Or one which only has females.  Or a hermaphroditic species.  What happens in these cases (both to and from)?




I don't know if the RAW actually saw gender/sex doesn't change.  They don't say anything about it, either yay or nay.  I suspect it's done that way to allow DMs to make the choice for their own games.

Personally, anyone who is reincarnated in my games has a 50% chance to go away.  Interestingly, the spell had *never* been used in my campaign, in about 7 years, yet lately, a high-level druid is the only person in the party capable of bringing back the dead.  This had never been house ruled, yet all my players assumed there was a random chance of switching gender.

One of the characters was a male elf, who had been slain several weeks ago, and been reincarnated as a different male elf......but he was slain again after a few sessions, and has now been brought back as a dryad, meaning a female form since there are no males....aside from satyrs, and since they're a different result on the chart, they don't count.

The player saw it as an opportunity for a change.  He's been playing this character for 6 years, and miraculously, he's survived the entire time.  But once he finally died for the first time, he seems to be having harder luck.

I've also tried a bit of a different take on the spell.  Given that my campaign is a low-XP, slow advancement one, many characters have been in it for many years of play time, and they're still only about lvl 12 right now.  Sometimes players experience character fatigue...the desire to try something different.  So, I decided to allow characters to switch classes when they come back, if they're interested.  The idea being that when they come back, though they remember their old life, they've also got a new mind that might not do things the same way....so that elf I mentioned had been a rogue/sorcerer, but is now a dryad wizard.  So far it seems the best of both worlds.  They're trying to roleplay it, and it allows them to try something new if a character dies, without the problems inherent in trying to introduce a new character into the party, not knowing any of the campaign history, what the PCs are up to, etc.

I guess it all depends on the comfort level of the group.  I always just assumed you were supposed to roll, but I guess nothing specifically says you have to.

Banshee


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## moritheil (Apr 6, 2005)

Yes, that's a classic way of explaining sonic elementals.  Fun times.  I wouldn't think that the actual elemental became a different element though   I always interpreted it as "this spell summons a fire elemental by tapping into the plane of Fire; and now we'll alter it to tap into Sonic energy instead."



			
				Jack Simth said:
			
		

> I just have fun sometimes with things that are technically by the book - for example, an Archmage could conjour a (confused) Electricity Elemental (Or Acid, or Sonic, or cold) (it's confused because it was previously a Fire elemental; VERY confused if you go with Cold....) with the Summon Monster spells and the _Mastery of Elements_ class ability.


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## Banshee16 (Apr 6, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> I think it's a pity the rules dont allow for gender change.  I mean, whay's the point in dying if I can't come back as a.. Well, something else.  Reading the spell description.. You come back as a youn adult.  So, if you're willing to lose a level every once in a while, get yourself killed before you croak naturally, and accept a good chance of a new race, this seems a great way to get out of dying of old age!
> 
> - Kemrain the [Evil] and Immortal!




I've thought of that myself.  Basically, just have your character ensure that he dies violently before he dies of old age, and he can keep coming back, forever.  Beats being a mouldy old lich.  Maybe a contingent reincarnation spell could be researched that automatically brings him/her back in a random form upon death.

Banshee


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## Jack Simth (Apr 6, 2005)

moritheil said:
			
		

> Yes, that's a classic way of explaining sonic elementals. Fun times. I wouldn't think that the actual elemental became a different element though  I always interpreted it as "this spell summons a fire elemental by tapping into the plane of Fire; and now we'll alter it to tap into Sonic energy instead."



Well now, that interaction isn't really spelled out, now is it?  That archmage (Great class for Sorcerors by the way, due to the flexibility boost from many of the abilities compared with the Sorceror's highly limited spell list, the Sorceror's more available spell slots, and the lack of bennifits to the Sorceror class beyond it's spellcasting and saves (duplicated by Archmage - exactly - and then some - although the Archmage duplication misses out on the Familiar)) might just be tossing a free Polymorph Any object into his Mastered spell.  Besides, it's a fun thought that the ex-fire elemental might look at you in confusion until you command it to do something.


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## Seeten (Apr 8, 2005)

Never let the rules get in the way of a good story, is my opinion. If a gender change makes the story better, I say go with it, barring player freakout. Specific DM's should know whether its too much or appropriate.


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