# Lost: Season 3 02/07/07



## Taelorn76 (Feb 7, 2007)

Didn't see any one post this yet:

Not in Portland



			
				tvguide.com said:
			
		

> On the operating table, Ben's life is in Jack's hands, but the doc's gambit to free Kate and Sawyer hits a geographical snag. Still, the runaways elude Danny and the other guards, with the help of unlikely allies. Flashbacks follow Juliet's medical career, which has a very personal component to it. Rachel: Robin Weigert. Ethan: William Mapother. Edmund: Zeljko Ivanek. Alpert: Nestor Carbonell.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Feb 7, 2007)

I hope they get this show back on track.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Feb 8, 2007)

Will Jack let Benry die?

Will Kate and Sawyer escape?

Will the Others punish Jack for what he has done?

Will the survivors back at the beach do something useful?

Will Desmond shave?


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## David Howery (Feb 8, 2007)

will Hurley find another girlfriend?

Will Michael and son ever turn back up?

Will Lassie be able to pull Timmy out of the well?

Will another of the main characters die?

And what about the smoke monster, the other hatches, that horse that Kate and Sawyer saw, the bears, Desmond's girlfriend, the food drop, and Sun's baby?


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Feb 8, 2007)

*snickers*  Edmund Burke.  We've got another philosopher!


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## Demmero (Feb 8, 2007)

Pretty good ep.

Anagram found!

Mittelos = LOST TIME or TIME LOST.

For what it's worth


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## The Grumpy Celt (Feb 8, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> Mittelos




I missed that one.

Alex's boyfriend was being subjected to some intense psychological torture. Juliet has been kept on the island, against her will, for more than three years. I think that in DnD terms, regardless of his motives or what he thinks of himself, Benry (that is all I will ever call him) is lawful evil.

The guard was reading, and making notes in, _A Brief History of Time_. Heh.

Feel for the Wookie prisoner gag. Heh.

Alex needs greater supervision - she is causing a lot of trouble, digging holes, building boats, when she is running around on her own.

Ethan Rom was apparently allowed off the island at some point. Or he came to the island for the first time around the time Juliet did. This also poses some interesting questions. If he was allowed off, then apparently people _can_ leave. If that is the case, why did he go back. If he was shanghaied like Juliet apparently was, how did Benry manged to force them to stay? for that matter, how does he keep so many people doing his bidding?

I don't buy the bus as a deliberate murder on part of the Dharma people. What were they doing, circling the block in that bus for days at a time, waiting for Ed to step out into the street so they could cream him?

By the way, Edmund Burke (12 January 1729 – 9 July 1797) was an Anglo-Irish statesman, author, orator, political theorist, and philosopher, who served for many years in the British House of Commons as a member of the Whig party. He is often regarded as the father of Anglo-American conservatism. To my knowledge, he was not a venal bully.


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## Hand of Evil (Feb 8, 2007)

Another back story of woe.  
More mystery on the power of someone/thing?  
More characters added.  
More feaking commecials than I like.  

Don't get me wrong, I like the show but it is starting to tick me off by going the character interaction over the mystery of the island.


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## Taelorn76 (Feb 8, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> Don't get me wrong, I like the show but it is starting to tick me off by going the character interaction over the mystery of the island.





Did anyone whatch the pre-show with the producers? Pretty early on in it one says that most people are more intersted in the characters back story and development than in the mysteries of the island. 

To that I say   

I want to know what the hell is going on with this island


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## Demmero (Feb 8, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> I don't buy the bus as a deliberate murder on part of the Dharma people. What were they doing, circling the block in that bus for days at a time, waiting for Ed to step out into the street so they could cream him?




I'm not so sure about that.  My sister says she saw the bus just sitting in the background revving its engine about 30 seconds before it ran down Juliet's boss.

Good point about Ethan perhaps being allowed off the island; I hadn't considered the implications of that.

The thing I'm most interested in is what Ben really said to Juliet.  Do we actually take her at her word when she says he told her to let Kate and Sawyer go?  I just can't see that.  Kate and Sawyer have learned too much about the Others...most importantly, the location of the second island.

And it really pissed me off that Jack let Ben and Juliet speak in private in the first place!!  "One gentleman to another??!!"  Puh-lease!!  He's got Ben in a position where Ben can't pull all the strings like he normally does, and Jack lets him off the hook!  Stupid, stupid Jack!


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## RangerWickett (Feb 8, 2007)

Wait 2 years.

One of my friends says he'll watch LOST only if it's completely over, and only if his friends say it's worth it.


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## dravot (Feb 8, 2007)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Wait 2 years.
> 
> One of my friends says he'll watch LOST only if it's completely over, and only if his friends say it's worth it.




I'm seriously considering the wisdom in that.  I recorded last night's episode, but I'm thinking about waiting until the season ends and then rent it on dvd - if it's worth bothering with.


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## Alaric_Prympax (Feb 8, 2007)

David Howery said:
			
		

> Will Michael and son ever turn back up?





Check out story from SCI FI Wire:

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/index.php?category=0&id=40013&type=0

I think we've seen the last of Michael.   

But then again I've on seen the 1st 2 seasons on DVD and haven't seen any episode when it aired on TV.  Since I've already missed the 1st 6 epi's of S3 I'll wait for the S3 DVD's too.


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## Arnwyn (Feb 8, 2007)

Not a great episode, for me.

Definitely a couple of good moments (Wookie prisoner, FTW!; also, I'm always interested in seeing Alex, and that wacky psychological experiment/brainwashing was neat and not entirely surprising), but since I despise the Juliet character, and this episode was the big Juliet flashback, I didn't enjoy myself all that much. Bleh.



			
				Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Did anyone whatch the pre-show with the producers? Pretty early on in it one says that most people are more intersted in the characters back story and development than in the mysteries of the island.



No surprise there, IMO. Soaps are still on and popular after how many years?

In any case, it'll give me more of an excuse to dump the show and free up some more of my limited time. If I want to watch a soap, I'll watch a soap - I don't need a freaky-deeky island to do that.


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## dravot (Feb 8, 2007)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> In any case, it'll give me more of an excuse to dump the show and free up some more of my limited time. If I want to watch a soap, I'll watch a soap - I don't need a freaky-deeky island to do that.




Actually, I'd rather watch a freaky-deeky island soap than a regular soap, but I don't really want to watch a soap at all.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Feb 8, 2007)

Overall I gave it a 4.  Backstory about characters I couldn't care less about isn't a good episode for me.  Some good stuff mixed in though, Jack was pretty good and Sawyers wookie comment got me laughing. 

The focus has shifted so much over the past two seasons that it isn't really the same show I really got hooked on.  At least it doesn't feel like it to me.


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## Arnwyn (Feb 8, 2007)

dravot said:
			
		

> Actually, I'd rather watch a freaky-deeky island soap than a regular soap, but I don't really want to watch a soap at all.



That's where I was going with my comment.


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## EricNoah (Feb 8, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> I don't buy the bus as a deliberate murder on part of the Dharma people. What were they doing, circling the block in that bus for days at a time, waiting for Ed to step out into the street so they could cream him?




What if they can see the future.  Or what if Julliette can?  After all, it's looking like Desmond can...


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## EricNoah (Feb 8, 2007)

Even an average episode of Lost is better than most other TV as far as I'm concerned.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Feb 8, 2007)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Even an average episode of Lost is better than most other TV as far as I'm concerned.




True Dat, true dat.

I was not and am not griping about the show or this episode. It was fun. I hate Benry, and I think the writers want me to like him, and I'm having trouble with the bus thing, but aside from that I like it.


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## Taelorn76 (Feb 8, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> My sister says she saw the bus just sitting in the background revving its engine about 30 seconds before it ran down Juliet's boss.




My wife said the same thing when we noticed the bus in the background. "He's gonna get hit by that bus"


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## The Grumpy Celt (Feb 8, 2007)

Well I guess I literally missed the bus. Until it hit Ed.


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## Demmero (Feb 8, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Well I guess I literally missed the bus. Until it hit Ed.




Heh.  As soon as Juliet uttered those fateful words, my sister and I both said, "He's gonna get hit by a bus before the night's over!"

And I wasn't the least bit surprised when it happened.  There's a precedent for such callous, non-feeling inhumanity amongst the Others.  Remember when flight 815 was shown breaking up in the skies over the Others' island?  There was no talk of all the poor dead victims or suggestions of helping any survivors--Ben just calmly sent Ethan and Goodwin off to infiltrate in case there were any survivors.

The Others know something--or think they know something--that makes them like gods while other people are there to be used.


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## GlassJaw (Feb 8, 2007)

Shootout and the only thing anybody hits is the radio Kate is _holding in her hand_.  Ehh

Sawyer's wookie line.  Nice.

Ben waking up during surgery with a huge hold in his back and holding a conversastion.  Ehh.  I wish Jack grew some backbone and let him die.

Info on Julliette's background.  Ehh, I could care less.

So then at the end of the episode, Jules comes back into the operating room and only Jack is there.  She tells Jack he is going back into his cell until they figure out what to do with him.  Why doesn't Jack just take her as a hostage or something?  Ben's out cold, most of the others are out looking for Kate and Sawyer, and Jack is alone with Jules.  I don't get it.

Overall, Jack is the character I'm the most interested in at this point but I so want him to man up and do something.  He needs to start going Jack Baurer on the Others.


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## GlassJaw (Feb 8, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> And I wasn't the least bit surprised when it happened.  There's a precedent for such callous, non-feeling inhumanity amongst the Others.  Remember when flight 815 was shown breaking up in the skies over the Others' island?  There was no talk of all the poor dead victims or suggestions of helping any survivors--Ben just calmly sent Ethan and Goodwin off to infiltrate in case there were any survivors.




While I'll agree that the Others are definitely meant to be portrayed as "the bad guys", I don't even like them as bad guys.  I think the characters themselves are just lame.  Unveiling the others was the worst thing that has happened to the show.  Now I'm just hoping they get theirs, sooner than later preferably.


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## Taelorn76 (Feb 8, 2007)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> Shootout and the only thing anybody hits is the radio Kate is _holding in her hand_.  Ehh




Yeah the bugged me too. Guy's got enough aim to shoot a radio out of someones hand but can't hit a person.
And how convinient that they walked around the hole that Alex dug out


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## Hand of Evil (Feb 8, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Well I guess I literally missed the bus. Until it hit Ed.



I think everyone saw that coming BUT Ed.


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## Hand of Evil (Feb 8, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Yeah the bugged me too. Guy's got enough aim to shoot a radio out of someones hand but can't hit a person.
> And how convinient that they walked around the hole that Alex dug out



And don't forget that this was the guy who had the jones on to kill Sawyer and for the death of his wife!


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## DonTadow (Feb 8, 2007)

Man, the bus scene has officially become played out. It's the third time (series) I've seen it on. I've seen it a half dozzen times since the first Final Destination. It even looked like Ed specifically moved himself in front of the path of the bus. 

Who doesn't see a bus coming.


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## Sir Brennen (Feb 8, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Man, the bus scene has officially become played out. It's the third time (series) I've seen it on. I've seen it a half dozen times since the first Final Destination.



 Is it wrong the first thing it reminded me of was the similar scene in 'Mean Girls'?  

Actually, it makes sense... "hit by a bus" is a common phrase people use when talking about accidental death, especially jokingly, so it wasn't out of place for Juliet to use it. However, by Ed actually dying that way, it let Juliet *know* it wasn't an accident, even if Ethan and the other guy deny it. She knows she's dealing with serious, powerful people, and it was actually a nice twist on the cliche we've seen a dozen times on movies and TV that DonTadow pointed out.

Was the name of the front corporation (initials MB; don't remember the full name) that recruited Juliet a clue about Hanso?

Why is Juliet's back-story so uninteresting to people? I think it offered alot of clues as to what's going on with the Hanso Foundation, the goals of the others and what's up with the island. She obviously was working on treatments having to do with manipulating the reproductive system, even rejuvenating it. Sort of like Sun's pregnancy? (I also think Benry didn't promise her freedom; he threatened harm to her sister.)

Personally, I am one of the people that *likes* character back-stories. Understanding that why people do things can be for complex reasons is refreshing after too many sci-fi/fantasy shows filled with characters driven by cliched, shallow motivations. (In particular comic-book shows 'Heroes' and 'Smallville', both of which I do enjoy on their own merits, but are unsatisfying in portraying realistic character depth.) 

There's never a week that we don't learn *something* about the island, so I'm content to let that unfold at the current pace, especially with recent announcements that the writers definitley have a specific ending point for the series in mind.


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## Asmo (Feb 8, 2007)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> *snickers*  Edmund Burke.  We've got another philosopher!



What did I miss? 



			
				The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Feel for the Wookie prisoner gag. Heh.




Another miss, what are you guys talking about? I understand that Sawyer must have said something, but what?

I liked this episode, good to have Lost back again.

Asmo


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## Taelorn76 (Feb 8, 2007)

Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> There's never a week that we don't learn *something* about the island, so I'm content to let that unfold at the current pace, especially with recent announcements that the writers definitley have a specific ending point for the series in mind.




I don't think we learned anything about the island this week. IRC the only thing we may have learned about the island is that there are two islands.


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## Taelorn76 (Feb 8, 2007)

Asmo said:
			
		

> What did I miss?




I believe Edmund Burke was a real life philosopher.



			
				Asmo said:
			
		

> Another miss, what are you guys talking about? I understand that Sawyer must have said something, but what?
> Asmo




Sawyer stated to the guard that he fell for the same trick that Han and Luke pulled when trying to rescue Princess Leah in the first Star Wars


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## LightPhoenix (Feb 8, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> I don't think we learned anything about the island this week. IRC the only thing we may have learned about the island is that there are two islands.




Which we already knew from Sawyer's episode earlier in the season.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Feb 8, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> I think everyone saw that coming BUT Ed.




I was not surprised he was hit by the bus and it was telegraphed in dialogue, Ed’s behavior and his position on the street. I just did not see the bus until it ran him over. And honestly, I think the bus backing over him was just unnecessary.

Kidding aside, how often have people been hit by busses in this show? Somehow it felt like a call back to some other incident of someone getting hit by a bus, and in this show to boot. But for the life of me, I can’t remember any other incidents.


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## Richards (Feb 9, 2007)

The wookiee line was great, but the absolute best Sawyer moment on last night's episode was when he was giving his would-be executioner the beating, and had him down enough that he and Kate could easily have run off, but he decided to hang around long enough to bash the guy's face into the electrified "food button" in his cage - not once, but several times.

Go Sawyer!

Johnathan


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## GlassJaw (Feb 9, 2007)

Richards said:
			
		

> The wookiee line was great, but the absolute best Sawyer moment on last night's episode was when he was giving his would-be executioner the beating, and had him down enough that he and Kate could easily have run off, but he decided to hang around long enough to bash the guy's face into the electrified "food button" in his cage - not once, but several times.
> 
> Go Sawyer!




I agree.  While I'm not a Sawyer fan overall, I'm glad someone was trying to dish out some hurt on the others.  Lord knows they deserve it.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Feb 9, 2007)

Edmund Burke


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## LightPhoenix (Feb 9, 2007)

I wasn't thrilled with the episode, but there were a few redeeming things.

Sawyer and Kate kicking some butt was definitely the main thing that saved this episode, I think.  Not only could the show use a little more action (or really, movement) but there was definitely an emotional payoff with it.  Not only just with regards to the first six episodes, but to the whole Others thing in the first place.

Also, bad-ass colder Jack is a lot better than leader Jack.

Juliet's story was boring, I couldn't care any less about her.

On a related note, not enough emphasis on the main cast, who are the ones that are cared about - not Ben or Juliet or Tom or any other random person.

All that said, I definitely like the direction the third season has taken so far.  They need to keep up the momentum.  Actually, I think that the decision to hold off the show for so long was actually a mistake, as it sapped any momentum the first six episodes built up.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Feb 9, 2007)

Asmo said:
			
		

> What did I miss?




I wrote about who Edmund Burke was in my posts. So, given that you don't read posts from other people do you just come in here to post and then read your own posts?


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## RangerWickett (Feb 9, 2007)

How this episode would have been better:

After beating the crap out of the two Others trying to kill Sawyer, Sawyer electrocutes the guy. Then he shoots them both in the head while they're down. These guys are trying to kill you. You have no reason to want them alive. Kill them.

Since you no longer have this long chase around the island to avoid people shooting at you, you meet the girl, and shoot the guard at the door in the chest instead of threatening to shoot him in the knee. If the girl complains, you list the names of Steve, Ana-Lucia, and Libby -- people who have been killed by the Others. You tell her if she didn't want the guy dead, she should have stopped her fellow Others from killing Kate, Jack, and Sawyer's people.

Juliet never goes out after them, since they'll get away just fine. Jack talks to Kate, tells her to go and that he's staying so he can find a way for them to get back to civilization. Then, once he knows Kate and Sawyer (and the girl and her boyfriend) are safely away (which takes a few minutes less than it took in the episode because we have less d**king around), Jack asks Ben a few questions about the island. Y'know, ask some effin questions, maybe?! Why the hell else did you go there?! Based on how forthcoming Ben is, he decides whether to save Ben.

I am honestly at the point of saying, "I'm tired of the Others. You make no sense, you have never shown any reason for us to believe we should trust you, and you are in the way of us getting to safety. Unless the Others step up right now and give a sincerely good reason for the things they've done -- unless they stop being evasive -- they should be killed.

To be fair, we should explain this to the Others. We should say, "What the hell is up with this island? This island is dangerous, and if you don't tell me everything, I'll assume you want to hurt me, and I'll have to kill you."

There is just an irritating lack of dialogue on this damn show about the mysteries. If there were a single gamer on this island, he would be organizing people to figure out the answers, and it wouldn't have taken 70 days.


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## Cthulhudrew (Feb 9, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Ethan Rom was apparently allowed off the island at some point. Or he came to the island for the first time around the time Juliet did. This also poses some interesting questions. If he was allowed off, then apparently people _can_ leave. If that is the case, why did he go back. If he was shanghaied like Juliet apparently was, how did Benry manged to force them to stay? for that matter, how does he keep so many people doing his bidding?




Between their presence there, the fact that they knew about Juliet and the notion that Ben was going to let her go, seems to imply that there is a way off the island and that Ben can make it happen. We know that they had at least one boat of their own (though just a small one), and now they have two (with Desmond's). 

IIRC, didn't Ben say that he'd never been off the island himself? If so, and if he wasn't lying, that implies that the Others have connections off island as well. Plus, Juliet's files on Jack from episode 1 of this season also seem to indicate that they have connections on the mainland.

All in all, then, I'd say it's safe to assume that at least some of the Others are going back and forth.

As to Ben's methods of coercion? Well, he could hold the threat of violence against loved ones as a means (like he does with Juliet), although that probably wouldn't be possible to do against everyone (after all, he needs someone to enforce those threats). Whatever hold he had over people like Ethan, then, is likely something else. Maybe he's just a very charismatic cult-like figure like seemed to be the case prior to this episode?


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## Cthulhudrew (Feb 9, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Who doesn't see a bus coming.




You'd be surprised. 

Could be that he wasn't paying attention, or just thought he could get out of the way first. When I was at ASU, a kid got run over by a bus when he tried to ride his bike across the street rather than wait for it to go by. The driver didn't see him until it was too late. Just plain tragic stupidity.


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## IcedEarth81 (Feb 9, 2007)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> On a related note, not enough emphasis on the main cast



I think they are about to ramp that up, according to the preview of next week's episode. I think we are finally going to get the army that Jack and Anna Lucia talked about at the end of a Season 2 episode, and I like it. It's time they started being hostile right back to the Others. I still liked Sun shooting Colleen. I liked Sawyer slamming Broke-nose into the food button. I liked Jack being an a-hole to Ben, Tom, Julliette, etc. Now we will get Locke and Sayid in on the action.


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## David Howery (Feb 9, 2007)

One thing about Julie's backstory... it showed she went through one hell of a personality shift in those 3 years.  She used to be a trembling shy divorcee who was terrified of confronting her ex-husband.  Now, she's an icily calm Other who has no qualms about shooting down people in cold blood.. not to mention, she can kick the hell out of Jack.  Do you suppose that mind warping chamber that Carl was in had something to do with it?


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## The Grumpy Celt (Feb 9, 2007)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Unless the Others step up right now and give a sincerely good reason for the things they've done -- unless they stop being evasive -- they should be killed.




Best post on LOST this season. My sentiments exactly. If an Other is not cooperative, tie them to that chain in the MindF  k Room and leave them there for three or four days, and see if they are not more cooperative. Maybe some electro shocks with those tasers will help as well.



			
				Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> All in all, then, I'd say it's safe to assume that at least some of the Others are going back and forth.




That was my point, but we can't be certain of that as a fact yet. It does suggest there is no real quarantine binding the islands populations. Thus they are free to leave without the real fear of spreading something. So why do they stay? Why do they return?


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## Wycen (Feb 9, 2007)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> How this episode would have been better:
> 
> snip




What he said.  

Unfortunately I'm one of the people who wants to know about the island and DHARMA, I don't care 2 shakes about most of the characters.


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## Demmero (Feb 9, 2007)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> If the girl complains, you list the names of Steve, Ana-Lucia, and Libby -- people who have been killed by the Others.




Dude...it was Scott that Ethan offed    

The problem with killing the guards is that such an action would pretty much sign Jack's death warrant.  Also, an execution like that might easily be witnessed by the Others (they had at least one camera watching the cages) who might themselves decide to declare war on the murderous Losties.  And the Others have a pretty big technological edge if it comes to an all-out war.

That having been said...yeah, I think I'd be at the point where I'd be giving serious thought to killing Others if the opportunity presented itself.  They might say that they're the good guys, but just about all of their actions say the opposite.  The Losties have to be expected to defend themselves.

I still think there's going to be a serious slaughter of Losties at the hands of the Others in the not-too-distant future.  With Kate and Sawyer getting back to the main group and giving them info about the Others and the second island, the Losties have become a much bigger threat to the Others' (seemingly twisted) way of life.


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## RigaMortus2 (Feb 9, 2007)

So, curious...  The vials Julliette was stealing in the begining (in her flashback) looked like the vials people have been shooting up on the island.  Is it possible that instead of "protecting them from a virus" on the island, that they are fertility drugs?  And if so, is that how Sun maybe got pregnant?  Anyone ever remember her using the drugs?

Also, do you think there was any significants to Juliette impregnating a male field mouse?


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## EricNoah (Feb 9, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Between their presence there, the fact that they knew about Juliet and the notion that Ben was going to let her go, seems to imply that there is a way off the island and that Ben can make it happen.




An interrupted line between Tom and Jack while they were trying to finish up surgury suggests that the day the sky turned purple was a day of change for their ability to leave the island.


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## Taelorn76 (Feb 9, 2007)

Richards said:
			
		

> The wookiee line was great, but the absolute best Sawyer moment on last night's episode was when he was giving his would-be executioner the beating, and had him down enough that he and Kate could easily have run off, but he decided to hang around long enough to bash the guy's face into the electrified "food button" in his cage - not once, but several times.
> 
> Go Sawyer!
> 
> Johnathan



Well the reason he threw him into it 3 times was due to the fact that you only get the shock on the 3rd time you push the button


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## Sir Brennen (Feb 9, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> I don't think we learned anything about the island this week. IRC the only thing we may have learned about the island is that there are two islands.



By "Island" I mean the general mysteries surrounding it, not the geographical body itself. Again, per my previous post, we learned that Juilet's work was centering around regenerative/reproductive studies, which probably has something to do with the properties of the island, which in turn have had direct impact on other characters. We also learned how Dharma was just as ruthless in its recruitment of some of the Others as they are toward the Lostaways.

The background scenes aren't just fluff. There are clues to the mystery of the island embedded throughout. If you don't think "anything happens" for episodes which have a high degree of flashback, I don't think you're paying attention.

I just don't get why the unique story-telling mechanism that was Lost's strength originally now seems to be that which is griped about so much on the boards.

*Edit:* RangerWickett, you're just a little too Lord of the Flies for me  

It's hard to do a tale of redemption if all the principals start murdering people.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Feb 9, 2007)

Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> I just don't get why the unique story-telling mechanism that was Lost's strength originally now seems to be that which is griped about so much on the boards.




It's a cool method when being used with good characters, ala Season 1.  Now we get flashbacks on "the Others".  I don't care about the Others, and any information on them can be told in other ways that don't include centering whole episodes around their backgrounds.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Feb 9, 2007)

Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> It's hard to do a tale of redemption if all the principals start murdering people.




But allowing oneself and ones companions to be brutalized, taken into what amounts to slavery and killed is redemption? That is the piss-poor philosophy of moral cowards.


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## Hand of Evil (Feb 9, 2007)

Something I hope they touch on this season is the season two ender, the guys in the snow and the telephone call.


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## Asmo (Feb 9, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> I wrote about who Edmund Burke was in my posts. So, given that you don't read posts from other people do you just come in here to post and then read your own posts?




I read you post, but I´ve no idea why Edmond Burkes name was mentioned at all. I must have missed something during the episode, I´m sure of it.

I fail to see the reason why Queen_Dopplepopolis mentions his name, that´s all.

And thanks for the link Queen_Dopplepopolis, by the way 

Asmo


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## Fast Learner (Feb 9, 2007)

The first post of the thread points out that the "Edmund" character (Juliette's ex) is named Edmund Burke.


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## Sir Brennen (Feb 9, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> But allowing oneself and ones companions to be brutalized, taken into what amounts to slavery and killed is redemption? That is the piss-poor philosophy of moral cowards.



???
Who's "allowing" themselves to have these things done to them in the show? The characters are fighting back, and it looks like they're going to up it a notch in the next couple of episodes. But this:



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> After beating the crap out of the two Others trying to kill Sawyer, Sawyer electrocutes the guy. *Then he shoots them both in the head while they're down.* These guys are trying to kill you. You have no reason to want them alive. Kill them.



Isn't this true moral cowardice? Not everyone is as "pragmatic" as RW; not everyone is willing to shoot a defenseless human in cold blood. Not killing when one has the chance *is* part of  redemption-style stories. They overcame them and locked them in a cage. That was suffice. Brutality is a more cowardly trait than mercy, and choosing this path re-enforces the main characters as "the good guys" (though Kate obviously was struggling with it when she "wasn't bluffing.")



			
				Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> It's a cool method when being used with good characters, ala Season 1. Now we get flashbacks on "the Others". I don't care about the Others, and any information on them can be told in other ways that don't include centering whole episodes around their backgrounds.



Except where the background demonstrates that some of the Others may not be so different from the Lostaways in their unwillingness to be on the island(s). I think it illustrates that the concept of what defines an "Other" may not be as clear-cut as the audience thinks. The flashback served _multiple purposes_, including being a indicator that this character is going to continue to be important as the season progresses, possibly even switching allegiances.

Plus, there's an old adage in fiction: "Show me, don't tell me."


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## Asmo (Feb 9, 2007)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> The first post of the thread points out that the "Edmund" character (Juliette's ex) is named Edmund Burke.




Really?   

Asmo


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## RangerWickett (Feb 9, 2007)

Wait wait wait. You're saying that, even though Kate and Sawyer knew that the two Others would be released and would aid in the attempt to catch and kill them, that they should have just left the two guys alive? None of the other Others were doing anything to stop Crazy McKillyoulots from shooting Sawyer. Why should Sawyer let the Others kill him? The best way to avoid dying is to kill the guy who wants to kill you. He's too big and strong to hold as a hostage, too irrational to reason with in the immediate future; the guy wants to kill you, and if you lock him in a cage he'll just be out in a few minutes to come after you.

I hate the Others. If the Lostaways don't kill one of the Others in the next two episodes (or we get one hell of an explanation why not), I'm out.


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## Sir Brennen (Feb 9, 2007)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Wait wait wait. You're saying that, even though Kate and Sawyer knew that the two Others would be released and would aid in the attempt to catch and kill them, that they should have just left the two guys alive? None of the other Others were doing anything to stop Crazy McKillyoulots from shooting Sawyer. Why should Sawyer let the Others kill him? The best way to avoid dying is to kill the guy who wants to kill you. He's too big and strong to hold as a hostage, too irrational to reason with in the immediate future; the guy wants to kill you, and if you lock him in a cage he'll just be out in a few minutes to come after you.



I'm just saying your idea of the practical approach isn't neccessarily what everyone in that situation would realistically do, as many would find it morally/emotionally disconcerting. Therefore I have no problem with how it was handled. And again, for the purposes of the narrative, it establishes the Lostaways as the heroes (though not without their flaws.)



> I hate the Others. If the Lostaways don't kill one of the Others in the next two episodes (or we get one hell of an explanation why not), I'm out.



Sun's killed one. Ana Lucia's killed one. Juilette's killed one to protect a couple of Lostaways (though for her own reasons.) Didn't Eko kill a couple? How many more do you need? Kill 'em all and you don't have a story. Though I'm guessing you'll get your wish soon enough, when the beachies bring it.


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## Hand of Evil (Feb 9, 2007)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Wait wait wait. You're saying that, even though Kate and Sawyer knew that the two Others would be released and would aid in the attempt to catch and kill them, that they should have just left the two guys alive? None of the other Others were doing anything to stop Crazy McKillyoulots from shooting Sawyer. Why should Sawyer let the Others kill him? The best way to avoid dying is to kill the guy who wants to kill you. He's too big and strong to hold as a hostage, too irrational to reason with in the immediate future; the guy wants to kill you, and if you lock him in a cage he'll just be out in a few minutes to come after you.
> 
> I hate the Others. If the Lostaways don't kill one of the Others in the next two episodes (or we get one hell of an explanation why not), I'm out.



I know I would have put him down, like I said the guy had it in for them for some time!  I may wait to see how this season ends up, before I walk away but I am with you.


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## Demmero (Feb 9, 2007)

*Guns Status?*

What is the status of the Lostaways' gun cache?  Am I wrong in thinking that they're still buried beneath Sawyer's tent and that only Sawyer and Kate know of their whereabouts?

I seem to recall Desmond having a rifle or something but that he used up all the ammo (though maybe he had more stashed on the boat).

Anyone with a better memory than me able to shed some light on this matter?  With some of the talk about killing the Others in this thread...well, that may be easier said than done.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Feb 9, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> What is the status of the Lostaways' gun cache?




Some of those were taken by the Others when there was the Mexican Standoff in the jungles, about half-way through last season. The Losties had to trade those guns to get Kate back and alive.

Other were taken along when the Losties went with Michael to get Walt. When Kate, Sawyer, Jack and Hurley were captured, those guns were also lost. 

I do not know how many guns are left.

The Others are nothing more and nothing less than a cult of slavers. They do not police their own, no one stopping Crazy McKillyoulots (Thanks you RW for the great title) on his irrational vendetta against Sawyer. However, they do brainwash people, kidnap people and children, decide who lives and who died according to their own whims and make captives perform physical labor. They are a cult of slavers. 

Kill them all. 

Kill them all, even if they surrender.


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## Demmero (Feb 9, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> However, they do brainwash people, kidnap people and children, decide who lives and who died according to their own whims and make captives perform physical labor. They are a cult of slavers.
> 
> Kill them all.
> 
> Kill them all, even if they surrender.




Heh.  How do you make sure you're not killing the slaves with the slavers?

Also, how do you get off the island if the required information dies with the Others you've just killed?

Part of me wants to see the Others get offed--there's no doubt in my mind that many of them are wicked, manipulative sub-humans.  But another part of me warns that if the Lostaways try the "kill-'em-all-and-let-God-sort-'em-out" approach, they'll be among the dead that God has to sort out.


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## Fast Learner (Feb 9, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> Part of me wants to see the Others get offed--there's no doubt in my mind that many of them are wicked, manipulative sub-humans.



If only such acts were sub-human.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Feb 10, 2007)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> If only such acts were sub-human.




What do you mean?


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## Fast Learner (Feb 10, 2007)

Humans are loving, caring, wonderful beings. Humans are also enslaving, treacherous, manipulative jerks. I was just noting that it would be a nicer world if such nastiness was sub-human, but it's just as human as any other of our behaviors. Not acceptable in our society, mind you, but very, very human indeed.


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## Demmero (Feb 10, 2007)

*Viewership Down*

Just saw a small article on AOL that said that viewership for the first Lost episode of 2007 was down about 2 million viewers (14.7 million vs. an average of 16.7 million for the first part of season 3).  My quick math says that's about 1 out of every 8 old viewers.

LINK HERE 

Not good, especially considering that several posters in this thread watched the latest ep but are considering dropping the show in the near future.

I wonder, should this trend continue, if the show's producers will switch gears again in an attempt to bring back the viewers they've lost.  That might not bode well for Lost's faithful followers.

Then again, maybe a couple million people just forgot that the show started up again this week from its long hiatus


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## Demmero (Feb 10, 2007)

David Howery said:
			
		

> Will Lassie be able to pull Timmy out of the well?




Ah-ha!  Another possible Mittelos anagram...TIM STOLE!

"Tim stole what, Lassie?  The Eyepatch Man's missing glass eye?  Is it down the well too?"

P.S. - Since we're talking about Lost here, shouldn't Timmy fall into a hatch?


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## LightPhoenix (Feb 10, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> Just saw a small article on AOL that said that viewership for the first Lost episode of 2007 was down about 2 million viewers (14.7 million vs. an average of 16.7 million for the first part of season 3).  My quick math says that's about 1 out of every 8 old viewers.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Then again, maybe a couple million people just forgot that the show started up again this week from its long hiatus




That's actually probably the case.  Not having the show on for so long probably hurt interest in the show.  It was definitely a mistake to break the season up this way.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Feb 11, 2007)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> It was definitely a mistake to break the season up this way.




They do seem to have trouble finding an airing pattern people can follow.


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## Taelorn76 (Feb 11, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> They do seem to have trouble finding an airing pattern people can follow.




I think they should really adopt the method that 24 uses. That would suit this tyoe of show well.


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## Fast Learner (Feb 12, 2007)

That's what they're going to do next year, they've said.


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## grimslade (Feb 12, 2007)

*Lostaways*

Sawyer and Kate should not have killed the Others in the cage. What good is a corpse? You check him and move on. No, they should have knee capped 'em. Tough to leave a buddy who's screaming. How's that for sub-human? 

I think the Others would have truly stayed 'other' if we had no back story about them.  We are heading for another tail section storyline here. A bunch of new characters to sympathize with, who will be killed off by the end of the season.


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## satori01 (Feb 12, 2007)

I found the backstory of Juliet to be rather interesting myself.  We saw a fractured, discombobulated, unethical fertility researcher willing to take personal risks....transform into a calculating, cold, Other willing to kill people, manipulate others, and put others lives at risk.

The whole time, Juliet has been playing beelzebub with Jack, I have gotten the sense she might be worse than Ben.  Ben has some integrity, it seems, at least a personal code of conduct that limits his behavior, not so sure about Juliet.

As for killing the Others at any opportunity... you still have to consider the very likely possibility, that those that are missing are being held by the Others.  There are no more 'Face' characters from the other half of the plane, and no more 'Face' parent characters with children missing...but  there have to still be some with the Lostaways.

Also, given that the Others seem at least somewhat comprised of the abducted, a sort of Lost Boy scenario from Peter Pan, should any sympathy be extended to those brainwashed?

Ben, if he truly has never been off the Island is probably an abducted child.  The young guard that Ranger Wicket is advocating killing is probably an abducted child.


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## Azgulor (Feb 12, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Between their presence there, the fact that they knew about Juliet and the notion that Ben was going to let her go, seems to imply that there is a way off the island and that Ben can make it happen. We know that they had at least one boat of their own (though just a small one), and now they have two (with Desmond's).
> 
> IIRC, didn't Ben say that he'd never been off the island himself? If so, and if he wasn't lying, that implies that the Others have connections off island as well. Plus, Juliet's files on Jack from episode 1 of this season also seem to indicate that they have connections on the mainland.
> 
> ...




What I'd like to know is if it's so damn easy to get off the island, either to recruit people or send them home, then why did  Ben have to put all of his hopes for survival in the hands of a hostile surgeon operating in a substandard O.R.?  Why didn't Ben leave to have the surgery done in a real hospital?  With the kind of money the Others (or their patron) must have, they surely could have arranged it.  (Easier than arranging for a bus to run someone over anyway...)

Azgulor


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## ASH (Feb 13, 2007)

I dont think that Ben can leave the island... something is up with that because if he could he would had the surgry done by someone else. 

I knew the second Juliet said 'hit by a bus' he would be hit by a bus... not a suprise, but i dont think it was supposed to be. 

I dont buy just letting Kate and Sawyer off the island. THere is more to it, which we wont know til much later i am sure.

I dont think Desmond can see the future, but it think it would be interesting if he is some how living some moments over and over again.... like "groundhogs day"

I dont think the original others are 'bad guys' and i definintely do not think they are the only 'others'. I think there is another group somwhere on the original island that is much more ferral and barbaric.  I think thats why the 'civilized' group is on a different island, why they were trying to get the kids off the main island and why they were making  a list of 'good' people.  

My only problem with the show that i really am confused about plot direction and concepts is that there are way too many freaking commercials.. i think we had almost as much advertisments as show.  It made me actually angry!  The show itself is made to keep you hanging and not tell you and lead astray ect ect... i like it because its entertaining. I want the show to make sense and hit all the main plot threads i like, but i also didnt want Echo to die... 

Good show. Bad commercials..


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## Fast Learner (Feb 13, 2007)

ASH said:
			
		

> My only problem with the show that i really am confused about plot direction and concepts is that there are way too many freaking commercials.. i think we had almost as much advertisments as show.  It made me actually angry!



It was the same 42 minutes of actual show as there is every single week, and as there has been.


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## Hijinks (Feb 13, 2007)

> Ben, if he truly has never been off the Island is probably an abducted child




I'm curious about the Alex - Ben - Danielle thing.  Danielle (the crazy French lady) says that her daughter's name was Alex and she was stolen as a baby.  Then we meet Alex who is in the clutches of the Others, but is apparently Ben's daughter.  Why not change her name, if she were abducted as a baby?  Danielle says that the father of her baby died, but I think that Ben really is her father; if he were actually her father, he'd be more likely to keep the same name that she was given at birth.  I'm not sure how it all works but I'm interested to see Alex get off of her island finally and encounter Danielle.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Feb 13, 2007)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> I'm curious about the Alex - Ben - Danielle thing...




Alex is probably his adopted daughter, _though she may not know that_. In fact, few of the Others may be in on that secret. 

When Danielle first encountered Sayid, she said her lover/husband/father of her child was a man named _Robert_, and that she shot and killed him after he became infected. Then, shortly after Alex was born, the Others came and took the child. Unless Danielle is lying or vastly more insane than she appears, Benry is not Alex's biological father. _Benry_, however, has spent more time lying to everyone around him than Danielle has.


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## Cthulhudrew (Feb 13, 2007)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> I'm not sure how it all works but I'm interested to see Alex get off of her island finally and encounter Danielle.




I just hope Kate or Sawyer mentions Alex's name and Sayid overhears it and says something about things. "Alex? Did you say her name was Alex? That's the name of Rousseau's daughter."

I can't recall for certain, but didn't either Kate or Claire learn Alex's name back in season 2? Its well past time for that reveal to come about already (and I'm one who is generally tolerant of the languorous pace of the show).


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## Taelorn76 (Feb 13, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> I can't recall for certain, but didn't either Kate or Claire learn Alex's name back in season 2? Its well past time for that reveal to come about already (and I'm one who is generally tolerant of the languorous pace of the show).




Well that ties back to everyone keeping secrets from each other. My hope is that people finaly start talking to one another and start putting some pieces together. Then again we are talking about Lost so that is a pretty lofty goal


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## The Grumpy Celt (Feb 14, 2007)

If the characters acted sensibly, then the show would be over already. They've got to be dumb to keep the show going.


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