# Getting the most out of Summon Nature's Ally



## Phasics (Sep 21, 2006)

Been looking for a bit of guide on Summon Nature's Ally at low levels

I mean at level 1 is it even worth casting ? 1 round/level , I mean its here for a grand total of 6 seconds ! then gone before it has a chance to do much of anything ?

that to me seems like the biggest downside which dosent really get much better until you've got some levels under your belt. are there any feats etc that can help with this (at lower levels)?

Also with regards to summoning multiple lower level critters i.e. 1d3 or 1d4+1. At Summon 2 and Summon 3 is it worth summoning more lower level critters to get more damage out of them for the short time there are around ? I mean with a grand total of 2 or 3 rounds at this point does anyone care about Hit Points ?

and as far as buffing summoned critters again I can't really see the point since there gone before it will make any real difference.

So just a bit of advice for lower levels ?


on a side note would it be too overpowered to increase summoning from 1 round/level to 1 min/level? or even 10 mins/level. Perhaps costing a feat or even a summoning skill which increases duration by number of ranks in the skill ?


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## Moon-Lancer (Sep 21, 2006)

dont use sna at level 1. use sna 2 for more wolves, then use sna 3 for dire wolf, then use sna 4 for more dire wolves. use sna 4 to summon a unicorn for healing.  sna 5 or 6 for elementals is then really cool (large air). Pick up bad guys, left 110 feet, and drop for 10d6 damage before its level 10. This is also good for carrying away bad guys who are hurting allys.


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## Dimensional (Sep 21, 2006)

Your right at lvl 1 SNA is difficult to use

though it can be used well to tie up an opponent for a round - block passages etc. but mostly it doesn't last long enough.

If you have ebberon Campaign setting the Ashbound feat doubles the duration of SNA spells and gives all summons a +3 Luck bonus to hit. I like the roleplaying flavour as well.

at lower levels the extra animals from a lower lvl SNA can be useful - extra flanking, extra targets that must be bypassed before the enemy can get to you that sort of thing.

mostly it's situational - sometimes you want one big hitter, sometimes you want a lot of targets to chew up an opponents defenses and tie up his mooks. 

I loves my druids SNA abilities and I usedthem from the beggining of our campaign - though we did start at lvl 3

Jeremy


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## Legildur (Sep 21, 2006)

Dimensional said:
			
		

> If you have ebberon Campaign setting the Ashbound feat doubles the duration of SNA spells and gives all summons a +3 Luck bonus to hit. I like the roleplaying flavour as well.



Is there anything about Ebberon that isn't overpowered?


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## Jack Simth (Sep 21, 2006)

Summon Nature's Ally II can be exceedingly useful - you see, the Dire Badger has a Burrow speed, and a note that it leaves a useable tunnel behind in anything other than particularly loose dirt.  It can't get through solid rock, but anything softer than that.  Great for getting past a castle wall, or out of a maze (not the spell), or making a defensible location to rest (pretty much only the one way in, and that with no cover or concealment, so no hiding), getting out of cheaply constructed prisons and dungeons, and occasionally getting the drop on someone (silly them, watching the door....).


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## irdeggman (Sep 21, 2006)

Legildur said:
			
		

> Is there anything about Ebberon that isn't overpowered?





When compared to Forgotten Realms IMO it is about the same.


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## brehobit (Sep 21, 2006)

Legildur said:
			
		

> Is there anything about Ebberon that isn't overpowered?



It is pretty high-power.  That said, while that feat is _really_ powerful, the RP restrictions on it (which should be enforced IMO) are pretty huge.  A hatred of Arcane magic limits party options and potentially magic item use.  I personally rule that all non-divine magic counts as arcane for this purpose.  

Ya want the power, ya gotta pay the price.

Mark


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## lukelightning (Sep 21, 2006)

The unicorn trick of SNA is something that needs to be fixed. Ta-da! A 4th level spell that gives you _cure light wounds_ 3/day, _cure moderate wounds_ 1/day, and _neutralize poison_ 1/day; no need to ever prepare neutralize poison!  Plus a constant _magic circle against evil_.   At least its _greater teleport_ doesn't work (it only works in the unicorn's home...wherever the heck a summoned unicorn's home is, it certainly isn't wherever the druid summoned it).


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## Wolfwood2 (Sep 21, 2006)

Phasics said:
			
		

> Also with regards to summoning multiple lower level critters i.e. 1d3 or 1d4+1. At Summon 2 and Summon 3 is it worth summoning more lower level critters to get more damage out of them for the short time there are around ? I mean with a grand total of 2 or 3 rounds at this point does anyone care about Hit Points ?




It's not worth it at level 1.  Around level 3 it starts getting useful.

The best creature on the Summon NA II list is hippogriffs because they get three attacks per round.  Not very powerful attacks it's true, but they add up.

The best creature on the Summon NA III list is the dire wolf, for its insane strength score and free ability to trip opponents.  It has a lousy AC but who cares?  It has enough hitpoints to last a few rounds, and that's really all you need.

It might be worth summoning 1d3 hippogriffs instead of one dire wolf.  It's definitely better to summon 1d3 dire wolves than anything on the SNA IV list.  (Well, in terms of combat power.  A unicorn is nice for spells.)


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## Brother MacLaren (Sep 21, 2006)

Elementals are good for scouting; the air elementals are extremely fast, and the earth elementals can walk through solid stone.  Just make sure your druid speaks Terran and Auran.


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## Phasics (Sep 22, 2006)

Wolfwood2 said:
			
		

> It's not worth it at level 1.  Around level 3 it starts getting useful.
> 
> The best creature on the Summon NA II list is hippogriffs because they get three attacks per round.  Not very powerful attacks it's true, but they add up.
> 
> ...




is 1d4+1 ever a better than 1d3 , apart from when you just want as much meat between you and the otherguy ? or are the creature you summon (2 lv lower just going to be totally ineffective vs the monsters you will probbably face) I guess the only exception here is if you get attack by a huge group and just need numbers of your own ?


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## Christian (Sep 22, 2006)

Wolfwood2 said:
			
		

> It's definitely better to summon 1d3 dire wolves than anything on the SNA IV list.  (Well, in terms of combat power.  A unicorn is nice for spells.)




Really? I though that the giant croc looked pretty decent. But my druid's at 19,000 XP, so I haven't had an opportunity to test that theory yet. (Definitely agree on the SNA III list--I've summoned more dire wolves than you can shake a stick at. Not that I recommend shaking a stick at a dire wolf--good way to lose an arm.  )


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## Moon-Lancer (Sep 22, 2006)

lukelightning said:
			
		

> The unicorn trick of SNA is something that needs to be fixed. Ta-da! A 4th level spell that gives you _cure light wounds_ 3/day, _cure moderate wounds_ 1/day, and _neutralize poison_ 1/day; no need to ever prepare neutralize poison!  Plus a constant _magic circle against evil_.   At least its _greater teleport_ doesn't work (it only works in the unicorn's home...wherever the heck a summoned unicorn's home is, it certainly isn't wherever the druid summoned it).





well if you summon in a forest, its quite likely your in its home. At the very least, in a ravenloft
game. I dont think it needs fixed. Its not very good in combat, as thier concentration kindof sucks, and alwayse blow the spell, well everytime i have tried for it. So it is not a very good solution in combat. So it has its balance.


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## Jack Simth (Sep 22, 2006)

lukelightning said:
			
		

> The unicorn trick of SNA is something that needs to be fixed. Ta-da! A 4th level spell that gives you _cure light wounds_ 3/day, _cure moderate wounds_ 1/day, and _neutralize poison_ 1/day; no need to ever prepare neutralize poison!  Plus a constant _magic circle against evil_.   At least its _greater teleport_ doesn't work (it only works in the unicorn's home...wherever the heck a summoned unicorn's home is, it certainly isn't wherever the druid summoned it).



Summoned critters aren't permitted to use their own teleportational abilities anyway; it's under Conjouration(Summoning) in the Magic Overview.  It doesn't actually matter if you just Summoned the Unicorn from right over there (other than it might be a while before it's back... my, that might make for an interesting plot....) and you're still in it's forest, it can't use it's teleportational abilities while summoned.  Called, yes, Summoned, no.

So let's see, a 4th level Druid spell, cast spontaneously, gives the Druid access to:

Cure Light Wounds *3 (1st level Druid spell) for 3d8+15 healing over the course of four rounds (one to Summon, three to Cast)
Cure Moderate Wounds (2nd level Druid spell) for 2d8+5 healing on the fifth round
Neutralize Poison (3rd level Druid spell).

So a 4th level spell and a full-round casting time plus a bit of wait time for the effect to finish up give the Druid access to a bit more healing than he'd have otherwise - instead of casting Cure Serious as a standard action for 3d8+7 (minimum caster level for Summon Nature's Ally IV), he can take five total rounds for 5d8+20 (but can do other things in rounds 2-5).  And it's blocked by anything that stops dimensional travel.  And it can't be used in an environment that won't support a unicorn - it is a Large creature, after all.

Meh, not overly unbalanced; a bit more effecient outside of combat, but otherwise, not overly much so.  Gets a little interesting when you're talking about Summon Nature's Ally V for 1d3 unicorns, or Summon Nature's Ally VI for 1d4+1, but for the most part, I don't think it will cause much in the way of trouble.


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## Wolfwood2 (Sep 22, 2006)

Christian said:
			
		

> Really? I though that the giant croc looked pretty decent. But my druid's at 19,000 XP, so I haven't had an opportunity to test that theory yet. (Definitely agree on the SNA III list--I've summoned more dire wolves than you can shake a stick at. Not that I recommend shaking a stick at a dire wolf--good way to lose an arm.  )




I'd rather have one giant croc than one dire wolf.

But I'd rather have two dire wolves than one giant croc, and I'd definitely rather have three dires wolves than one giant croc.

I figure two out of three odds is good.

Also, SNA is a close range spell and crocs are pretty slow, but wolves are very fast.  If you're dealing with range issues, that 50 ft of movement and then attack can be very helpful.


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## Pielorinho (Sep 22, 2006)

I actually think the summoning-unicorns trick is just about necessary for parties with no divine spellcasters other than a druid (e.g., our party).  Without that trick, I'd need to devote most of my prepared spells to healing; at fifteenth level, it's not uncommon for us to have 4 characters each of whom need 70+ HP healing at the end of a fight.  Summoning half a dozen unicorns really helps with this.

Daniel


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## Moon-Lancer (Sep 22, 2006)

ay men. Plus summoning unicorns to heal has much more flavor then just blue sparkles, like the ff3 summons?


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## Christian (Sep 23, 2006)

Jack Simth said:
			
		

> So let's see, a 4th level Druid spell, cast spontaneously, gives the Druid access to:
> 
> Cure Light Wounds *3 (1st level Druid spell) for 3d8+15 healing over the course of four rounds (one to Summon, three to Cast)
> Cure Moderate Wounds (2nd level Druid spell) for 2d8+5 healing on the fifth round
> Neutralize Poison (3rd level Druid spell).




Cure Moderate Wounds is a 3rd level Druid spell. 2nd level for Clerics, of course ... And don't forget the Magic Circle Against Evil effect, which Druid's don't have access to otherwise. My allies and I took way too much damage last adventure from _Dominated_ party members for my taste. And we would have taken more if not for some lucky saves. (That +2 to Will saves from rage doesn't always just save the _Barbarian's_ bacon.) Next time I catch even a hint of mind-control, those bad-Will-save folks get to fight side-by-side with Mr. Unicorn for a bit, methinks.


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## Pielorinho (Sep 23, 2006)

Christian said:
			
		

> Cure Moderate Wounds is a 3rd level Druid spell. 2nd level for Clerics, of course ... And don't forget the Magic Circle Against Evil effect, which Druid's don't have access to otherwise. My allies and I took way too much damage last adventure from _Dominated_ party members for my taste. And we would have taken more if not for some lucky saves. (That +2 to Will saves from rage doesn't always just save the _Barbarian's_ bacon.) Next time I catch even a hint of mind-control, those bad-Will-save folks get to fight side-by-side with Mr. Unicorn for a bit, methinks.



True, but it's a fourth-level spell for a 1 round/level magic circle, as opposed to a third-level spell for a 10 minute/level magic circle.  The anti-domination effect suppresses the mind-control; it doesn't prevent it. Whereas MCaE can provide some reasonably long-term protection, the summoned unicorns just buy you a minute or so to get thigns under control.

Still very useful, but the time is a significant limitation.

Daniel


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## geosapient (Sep 23, 2006)

*Magic Circle*

Do Druids even gain accass to Magic Circle otherwise?


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## Christian (Sep 23, 2006)

geosapient said:
			
		

> Do Druids even gain accass to Magic Circle otherwise?



 Nope. Clerics, Paladins, and Wizards. Druid's don't even get Protection from Evil etc ... The usefulness is obviously lower with the reduced duration, but I expect it'll still come in handy. If our barbarian and our archer can't take out whoever's _dominated_ them within seven rounds, something's gone horribly, horribly wrong.


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## Pielorinho (Sep 23, 2006)

Christian said:
			
		

> Nope. Clerics, Paladins, and Wizards. Druid's don't even get Protection from Evil etc ... The usefulness is obviously lower with the reduced duration, but I expect it'll still come in handy. If our barbarian and our archer can't take out whoever's _dominated_ them within seven rounds, something's gone horribly, horribly wrong.



Heh.  The better use of those seven rounds, of course, is to say, "DUDE YOU'RE DOMINATED WE HAVE TO TIE YOU UP RIGHT NOW!"

Still, with 70 minutes of protection, you can have your buddy keep helping you out in fights while you look for a cure to the condition (e.g., killing the dominator).  With seven rounds, that's a lot riskier.

Daniel


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## krull (Jan 11, 2016)

Just last night while fighting a bugbear my wife (1st lvl/druid) summoned a wolf into flanking position with the groups fighter the wolf and fighter, thanks to the +2 managed to hit, then took a 5' step allowing the rouge to 5' step into flanking with the wolf and hit. all three hits plus the sneak atk. It was really entertained seeing my wife (this was her fist ever game) show such a natural talent for tactics. 
She saved the day because the bugbear almost killed the fighter with a critical hit in the round before.


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