# NEWS; Gunning down the Snyderverse UPDATE Cavill gets the Kryptonite handshake!



## Tonguez (Dec 8, 2022)

UPDATE
Henry Cavill has released a statement advising that “I will, after all, not be returning as Superman, After being told by the studio to announce my return back in October, prior to their hire, this news isn’t the easiest, but that’s life. The changing of the guard is something that happens. I respect that. James and Peter have a universe to build. I wish them and all involved with the new universe the best of luck, and the happiest of fortunes.”

ORIGINAL POST
In the first big bold move by the new boses at DC, Patty Jenkins has been told that her treatment for Wonder Woman 3 does not fit the new vision for the DC Universe. While its not an outright cut after the poor performance of WW2 and ongoing problems and financial blow outs at WB its looking unlikely that Jenkins or Gal Gadot will be back.

 Moreover James Gunn and Pete Sanfran have promised that there will be only One DC Universe and many are expecting that means they’ll be wanting to clear out all the lingering remants of the Snyderverse and the looming shadow of Dwayne Johnsons Black Adam too. Breakdowns in negotiations with Henry Cavill are likely symptoms of that since The Rock has his fingers all over that Super pie.

Gunn and Safran said in a joint statement that they wanted to _create an integrated, multilayered universe that still allows for the individual expression of the artists involved. Our commitment to Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Harley Quinn, and the rest of the DC stable of characters is only equalled by our commitment to the wonder of human possibility these characters represent_.

Its rumoured that Gunn will be focussing on Amanda Waller as the lynchpin for the new DC Universe and that the One vision will go across all media including Animation.

so what do you’ll think? will Gunn be a new broom that renews and rebuilds the DC Cinematic presence or is it sign of ongoing doom…


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## Aeson (Dec 8, 2022)

Rogue Squadron is dead too. This is not a fun time for Patty. 

I have always been more of a DC guy. I'm not looking forward to watching James Gunn ruin it. 
Nolan and Snyder 4 EVAH!


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## Snarf Zagyg (Dec 8, 2022)

I think that this article has a great rundown, both of what is _known_ and more importantly, what is _unknown and speculation_.









						Patty Jenkins’ ‘Wonder Woman 3’ Not Moving Forward as DC Movies Hit Turning Point (Exclusive)
					

New DC Studios heads James Gunn and Peter Safran are in the final stages of prepping their multiyear plan ahead of next week's pivotal presentation to Warner Bros. Discovery CEO David Zaslav.




					www.hollywoodreporter.com
				




Briefly-

Almost everything is still in flux. Gunn and Safran have finished their initial brainstorming, but haven't (yet) presented the full plan to Zaslav.
That said, they (apparently) have already rejected the Jenkins treatment for WW3. So that, as currently constituted, is a no-go. That doesn't _necessarily mean _that Jenkins and/or Gadot are gone.

_However, _there is speculation that the entirety of the "Snyderverse" will be gone after the movies that are currently already done (and/or in advanced stages) are released. The possible exception might be re-casting Momoa as Lobo, but that's speculation.

In addition, there is also speculation (which I think seems well-founded) that the whole Rock/Cavill powerplay was not well taken, and that Black Adam is a dead end. In addition, a little nugget I found fascinating is _The Flash _(originally set to be released March 23, 2018, and now set for June 16, 2023) is an "unlocked picture" and that there are still internal debates about cutting and editing out parts of it.

Which ... I mean .... you can't make that up.


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## AnotherGuy (Dec 8, 2022)

Thank goodness. It is about time they take a broom to the nonsense that was the Snyderverse.
Nothing against the actors but seriously those movies were rubbish for a number of reasons and for that you need the change to be at the top (directors and writers)
Personally, they should do a clean sweep and start over, either through The Flash introducing the new universe or just begin there and ignore the past.


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## wicked cool (Dec 8, 2022)

What a mess. These studios maybe are realizing that after Covid there is little appetite for bad movies. Ww1  and 2 were not good-awful. Suicide squad movies are just ok
Studios need to follow the top gun maverick style movie. Likeable characters, good plot plus good action
Lately it’s terrible plots(latest Jurassic) or movies that the special effects story are not worth the price of admission and should be direct to video (beast with idris Elba) or you have black Adam /Thor latest which is 2 predictable and filled with boring villains


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## ART! (Dec 8, 2022)

Argh!!!!

I really like Cavill and Gadot in those roles, and I think more Black Adam appearances could take better advantage of Johnson's strengths.

Also, on the one hand, I dislike Snyder's sensibilities (other than visual stuff), so good riddance, but on the other I dislike some of Gunn's, too, so...[shrugs]
But, we're more likely to get fun movies with Gunn, so I'm curious to see what his more tightly woven-together DCCU looks like.


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## aco175 (Dec 8, 2022)

Would the Flash movie open things with another universe like what Marvel did with alternate Earths.  This way you can start over and call it another reality or Earth?


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## Ryujin (Dec 8, 2022)

Can't say that it really surprises me all that much. The first Wonder Woman movie was quite good, despite devolving to the usual CGI-fest of an ending. The second movie felt tone deaf to me.


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## overgeeked (Dec 8, 2022)

I'm more of a Marvel person in the comics and films, mostly because the characters are generally more grounded, and the movies aren't bleak dystopias where the super-"heroes" wouldn't know how to be a superhero if a kid in a towel-cape showed them. Here's to hoping Gunn's version of the DCU will be more four color and less murderers with powers.


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## ART! (Dec 8, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> I'm more of a Marvel person in the comics and films, mostly because the characters are generally more grounded, and the movies aren't bleak dystopias where the super-"heroes" wouldn't know how to be a superhero if a kid in a towel-cape showed them. Here's to hoping Gunn's version of the DCU will be more four color and less murderers with powers.



Have you seen his Suicide Squad movie? That is a movie that finds every opportunity to kill people in horrible ways, mostly at the hands of Squad members. I know, I know - they're not "heroes". But...yeesh. And his Guardians of the Galaxy movies enjoy at least one good brutal kill-fest per movie.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Dec 8, 2022)

ART! said:


> Have you seen his Suicide Squad movie? That is a movie that finds every opportunity to kill people in horrible ways, mostly at the hands of Squad members. I know, I know - they're not "heroes". But...yeesh. And his Guardians of the Galaxy movies enjoy at least one good brutal kill-fest per movie.


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## overgeeked (Dec 8, 2022)

ART! said:


> Have you seen his Suicide Squad movie? That is a movie that finds every opportunity to kill people in horrible ways, mostly at the hands of Squad members. I know, I know - they're not "heroes". But...yeesh. And his Guardians of the Galaxy movies enjoy at least one good brutal kill-fest per movie.



Yes, I have. And I watched his Peacemaker show. They're great. I don't have an issue with those. Because, importantly, _they're not superheroes_. Peacemaker is, at best, an _anti-hero_. I mean this is even called out in the show. The whole Suicide Squad are, at best, _anti-heroes_. Literally imprisoned villains forced to work for the government as black ops agents. They are not good people. Loved the callback to the first issue of Suicide Squad in Gunn's version, btw. 

However, Superman is a _superhero_. Batman is a _superhero_. It's when you can't tell the difference between Superman, Batman, and Peacemaker that I have a problem. Batman doesn't kill, but he does in the newer DC movies. Superman doesn't kill, but he does in the newer DC movies. That's what I'm talking about. 

People with powers who kill is fine. Deadpool's awesome. The Boys is fine. Not my cuppa, but whatever. But that's a _subgenre_ that shouldn't be how the main superheroes are portrayed. When Superman is portrayed as an _anti-hero_...you have the wrong person running the show. I mean, if you want anything like supporting "evidence" look at how much better the Marvel movies do and have done than the DC movies. Sure, you get that in the comics on occasion, but it's almost always in Elseworlds or one-off graphic novels.


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## Undrave (Dec 8, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> In addition, a little nugget I found fascinating is _The Flash _(originally set to be released March 23, 2018, and now set for June 16, 2023) is an "unlocked picture" and that there are still internal debates about cutting and editing out parts of it.



That movie is the longest train crash in History! It just keeps getting worst...


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## Ryujin (Dec 8, 2022)

Undrave said:


> That movie is the longest train crash in History! It just keeps getting worst...



"Waterworld" would like to have a word with you.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Dec 8, 2022)

Undrave said:


> That movie is the longest train crash in History! It just keeps getting worst...




Part of it is that the studio kept hoping that the bad news about Ezra Miller would clear up .... but nope. They just kept digging that hole. 

In terms of the 2022 year in review, I'm fairly certain that WB is thankful that Kanye stepped up and saw what Ezra was doing and said, "Hold my beer."


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## Undrave (Dec 8, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> "Waterworld" would like to have a word with you.



Kevin Costner didn't go and commit crimes...


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## Ryujin (Dec 8, 2022)

Undrave said:


> Kevin Costner didn't go and commit crimes...



True. He just got tied to a mast on a runaway vessel for a day's worth of shooting.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Dec 8, 2022)

Undrave said:


> Kevin Costner didn't go and commit crimes...




I don't know about that. I saw _The Postman_. Pretty sure that was again one of the Geneva Conventions.


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## Stalker0 (Dec 8, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Its rumoured that Gunn will be focussing on Amanda Waller as the lynchpin for the new DC Universe



If they go that route I think they are going to have to do some changes to the Waller character.

Take Black Adam for example. One of the pieces that absolutely did not fit, Hawkman working with Waller. Hawkman was presented as this paragon of honor, it was his defining trait. Yet he's working with Waller, whose as honorless as it comes, she'll do anything to get the job done. That pairing did not make any damn sense.

So either they need to make her more "justice oriented", or do something where she literally has like blackmail on everyone and keeps them in line through chicanery. Anything in the middle just doesn't' work.


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## nevin (Dec 8, 2022)

Im worried that Gunn is going to double down on stealth snyderverse meets suicide squad.  i wont miss the caville superman but not because of caville because the stories were horrible.  but Wonder woman and Aquaman have been thier only true successes and it seems they are trying to move them ti the corner. makes no sense to me.  I will say the article could be interpreted that the recent wonder woman script got cancelled not wonder woman.  But supposedly Mimoa is going to become LOBO which will be great, but not so good for aquaman franchise


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## nevin (Dec 8, 2022)

I predict the Snyderverse will be replaced with the Wallerverse and the ends will justify everything


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## trappedslider (Dec 8, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> I'm more of a Marvel person in the comics and films, mostly because the characters are generally more grounded, and the movies aren't bleak dystopias where the super-"heroes" wouldn't know how to be a superhero if a kid in a towel-cape showed them. Here's to hoping Gunn's version of the DCU will be more four color and less murderers with powers.



you know it's funny in one of the many cross-ever events between the two (DC and Marvel) the Marvel heroes at first thought everyone was brainwashed for how heroes were treated in the DCverse compared to their own.


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## overgeeked (Dec 8, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> you know it's funny in one of the many cross-ever events between the two (DC and Marvel) the Marvel heroes at first thought everyone was brainwashed for how heroes were treated in the DCverse compared to their own.



The people probably knew that unless the "heroes" were treated like gods they'd be murdered en masse.


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## Aeson (Dec 8, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> The people probably knew that unless the "heroes" were treated like gods they'd be murdered en masse.



Um..what?


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## GreyLord (Dec 9, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> In the first big bold move by the new boses at DC, Patty Jenkins has been told that her treatment for Wonder Woman 3 does not fit the new vision for the DC Universe. While its not an outright cut after the poor performance of WW2 and ongoing problems and financial blow outs at WB its looking unlikely that Jenkins or Gal Gadot will be back.
> 
> Moreover James Gunn and Pete Sanfran have promised that there will be only One DC Universe and many are expecting that means they’ll be wanting to clear out all the lingering remants of the Snyderverse and the looming shadow of Dwayne Johnsons Black Adam too. Breakdowns in negotiations with Henry Cavill are likely symptoms of that since The Rock has his fingers all over that Super pie.
> 
> ...




The Suicide Squad bombed.

In my opinion it WAS NOT because it got streamed...but because it sucked.  It's the WORST Superhero Movie I've seen in the past 20 years.

A few hardcore fans overlooked the travesty that it was and praise it to high heaven, while everyone else passed the word on that this movie was really THAT BAD.  IT REALLY WAS bad.

Somebody doesn't realize this.

So, instead, they take the guy who had one of the worst bombs for a Superhero movie in the past 10 years and put him in charge?

This looks like it's going well already...

If they decide to boot Cavill...I think they will lose a LOT of us as viewers.

Gunn did well with GotG...but he sucks with DC thus far from what I've seen.

If they thought Snyder was bad news...everything I've seen from Gunn in the DC looks like it could be worse.

Luckily I have nothing invested in that company.  It looks like they are making bad decisions and will continue to make bad decisions.  I don't see this going well right now.

We'll see though.

PS:  Just read an update.  These guys are BAD PR right now.  It's REALLY BAD from what I've heard.

One item that's kind of upset (light word) people, they cancelled the Michael Keaton movie.  Not just said they were open to rewrites, flat out cancelled him.  The movie...Batman Beyond.

This was a STUPID move to hire this guy from what I'm seeing right now.  Gunn is going to KILL DC movies for a Decade.

If they don't do something quick the bad PR is going to BE REALLY bad I think.  The lost Patty, They seem to be killing Cavill, and they killed Keaton...I haven't heard a SINGLE GOOD idea that they have yet.


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## Vael (Dec 9, 2022)

I think the last DC movie I liked was Wonder Woman, but 84 was a mess. Mind you, I haven't bothered to watch the Snyder cut of JL, Birds of Prey or The Suicide Squad. Aquaman was dumb fun but that's about it. I haven't even seen The Batman.

I'm kinda only begrudgingly watching Marvel right now, DC hasn't got anything interesting me aside from the tranwreck of office politics as they try to recreate Marvel's success.


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## billd91 (Dec 9, 2022)

GreyLord said:


> The Suicide Squad bombed.
> 
> In my opinion it WAS NOT because it got streamed...but because it sucked. It's the WORST Superhero Movie I've seen in the past 20 years.
> 
> ...



Well, those somebodies apparently include 90% of critics and 82% of viewers on Rotten Tomatoes.


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## GreyLord (Dec 9, 2022)

Vael said:


> I think the last DC movie I liked was Wonder Woman, but 84 was a mess. Mind you, I haven't bothered to watch the Snyder cut of JL, Birds of Prey or The Suicide Squad. Aquaman was dumb fun but that's about it. I haven't even seen The Batman.
> 
> I'm kinda only begrudgingly watching Marvel right now, DC hasn't got anything interesting me aside from the tranwreck of office politics as they try to recreate Marvel's success.




Here's the crazy thing.

Many feel WW84 was trash.  It was released in the first year of the pandemic before we had any real vaccines available for everyone.  It was also released to streaming pretty darn quick.  

The Suicide Squad was released AFTER the vaccines were out though we were still very concerned about the pandemic.  It was also released to streaming pretty darn quick.

WW84 was released under worse conditions and worse timing than TSS.  

TSS STILL did worse than WW84.  If that says anything.

Yet, they decide to put Gunn in charge?

It doesn't really make any sense from that veiwpoint.  They want to recreate a Marvel MCU, which is probably why the got Gunn.  He's the only one willing to jump ship that has experience doing it...but he didn't do so well with TSS.

They ONLY hear those who praise TSS.  They don't realize that one BIG reason it did so badly was there were a ton of us who saw it...and hated it...and spread it to our friends on how bad it was.  They don't realize how badly it did from those of us who didn't like it...as they only seem to hear those who praise it.

But the money doesn't lie...and it did pretty darn badly.


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## GreyLord (Dec 9, 2022)

billd91 said:


> Well, those somebodies apparently include 90% of critics and 82% of viewers on Rotten Tomatoes.




Read the above.  critics are out of touch with viewers...and TSS bombed pretty darn badly. 

IT wasn't a mistake that it bombed either.  I was part of the wave that made it bomb.  We know why it bombed, but no one really pays attention to the silent watchers...even if the money indicates that MAYBE something more is up.

IF Gunn makes more movies just like his TSS...I think DC will be in a LOT of trouble.  If they thought the Snyderverse was bad in that department...well...Gunn could be about to say...here...hold this...

Gunn did well with GotG...at least two of the films.  But other than that I don't think his filmography really justifies putting him in charge as they have.  They are desperate for a Marvel and he's available is what it boils down to.  His profits aren't really up there in regards to others that probably could do a better job.

BUT...we will see.  He might have a plan, but from the rumors coming out right now...he has a seriously BAD PR problem.  If they let it keep on getting worse and out of hand...he's going to kill his studio before it even has a chance to get off the ground.


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## Ryujin (Dec 9, 2022)

GreyLord said:


> The Suicide Squad bombed.
> 
> In my opinion it WAS NOT because it got streamed...but because it sucked.  It's the WORST Superhero Movie I've seen in the past 20 years.
> 
> ...



Do you really mean "The Suicide Squad" or "Suicide Squad" because, rather unfortunately, those two very closely named movies are rather different.


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## GreyLord (Dec 9, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Do you really mean "The Suicide Squad" or "Suicide Squad" because, rather unfortunately, those two very closely named movies are rather different.




The Suicide Squad. 

It's the one made by Gunn.  The one that only made 168.7 million against a budget of 185 million dollars.   (WW84 made 169.6 M, just for comparison, but it DID have a 200M budget, though it was released at a worse time in the pandemic in worse situations.  No movie made money then.  When Gunn's TSS came out movies started to make money.  shortly after TSS came out Shang Chi was killing it or at least making a LOT MORE than TSS did).


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## Ryujin (Dec 9, 2022)

GreyLord said:


> The Suicide Squad.
> 
> It's the one made by Gunn.  The one that only made 168.7 million against a budget of 185 million dollars.   (WW84 made 169.6 M, just for comparison, but it DID have a 200M budget, though it was released at a worse time in the pandemic in worse situations.  No movie made money then.  When Gunn's TSS came out movies started to make money.  shortly after TSS came out Shang Chi was killing it or at least making a LOT MORE than TSS did).



Then I'm guessing folks like you don't vote at Rotten Tomatoes. As @billd91 pointed out both the critic and audience scores there are quite high. I also found it far better than "Suicide Squad", though my opinion on anything is likely worth less than the electrons used to post it. I would say that the box office is more about the lack of eyes on the product than it is about the product, itself, as a result.


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## GreyLord (Dec 9, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Then I'm guessing folks like you don't vote at Rotten Tomatoes. As @billd91 pointed out both the critic and audience scores there are quite high. I also found it far better than "Suicide Squad", though my opinion on anything is likely worth less than the electrons used to post it. I would say that the box office is more about the lack of eyes on the product than it is about the product, itself, as a result.




No, I don't.  Most viewers don't.

RT also has a terrible reputation at this point.  First they were being landslided by one side, then another and then RT decided to discount votes because of that (and no one really knows HOW that works). 

I normally rely more on Metacritic if I want something more reliable.  TSS isn't terrible on the site with it's rating (72 from critics, 6.9 from audience).

(WW84 is rated a 3.7 on MC in case people think that it's going to do that movie any favors...it doesn't).

That said, I don't rate films there either (and once again, most people don't).


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## Ryujin (Dec 9, 2022)

GreyLord said:


> No, I don't.  Most viewers don't.
> 
> RT also has a terrible reputation at this point.  First they were being landslided by one side, then another and then RT decided to discount votes because of that (and no one really knows HOW that works).
> 
> ...



Well I'm afraid that "most people don't" is how a representative sample works.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Dec 9, 2022)

GreyLord said:


> One item that's kind of upset (light word) people, they cancelled the Michael Keaton movie.  Not just said they were open to rewrites, flat out cancelled him.  The movie...Batman Beyond.




So one of the things that is important is to understand how things work, and why different sources of information might be different.

I'll start this by saying that (a) I am a massive Michael Keaton fan (as an actor, a person, and as Batman) and (b) I am a massive Batman Beyond fan, and wish nothing more that a live-action movie of it --- and cannot believe it hasn't been done. That said ... let's unpack this, shall we?

First, the studio ("WB") has previously had a Beyond movie in development- multiple times. Since 2001. The movie has had scripts and directors (I remember when Aronofsky was attached for a hot second), so saying that Batman Beyond is "in development" at WB is akin to saying that "water is wet."

Second, what _exactly is the rumor_? Well, it's that they are not moving forward on a _script_ by Christina Hodson (who wrote the Flash, kinda). Was this movie official? No. Was there a director? No. Was the main role (you know. Terry McGinnis?) cast? No.

Was Michael Keaton even signed for this movie? No. Not as far as anyone knows! 

So what is this breaking news???? That a script treatment for a movie that didn't have a director, or cast, wasn't going forward. This is not a shock- this is part and parcel of what happens every day in Hollywood.

Which leads to the next question.... why did the _usual places _pick up this non-news.* Well ... whenever there is a changing of the guard at some place, there are winners, and there are losers. And the losers like to get the knives out for the winners. These are the knives. Given the history of toxicity in the WB fandom, it's hardly surprising. 

I have to say, I hope that they are paying Gunn and Safran _all the money _to wade into this atmosphere. Heading up DC seems like it is a poisoned chalice. People are genuinely complaining about projects that don't even exist. 



*It's really non-news, other than maybe finding out that WB was trying, again, to have a live-action Batman Beyond as part of their continuing two decade quest to anger my blood.


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## Cadence (Dec 9, 2022)

Aeson said:


> Um..what?




I'm guessing a joke splicing what the Avengers at one point in the JLA/Avengers comic* thought about the JLA (fascists enforcing peace on earth) with the body counts in the DCEU movies. (On the other side, the JLA thought the Avengers were pathetic for how messed up the 616 earth was. Both thoughts were seemingly induced in part by the stress of being in the different universes, especially in the cases of Cap and Supes).

*As an Avengers fan since 1981 who has read a ton of them, I think it's one of the greatest Avengers stories ever, with Busiek and Perez at their finest. I think it's shameful that it is not in regular TPB reprint.


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## Stalker0 (Dec 11, 2022)

At the end of the day its pretty crazy to get upset about things you didn't have being taken away. They are doing a shakeup, decided to rebuild the DC property (because lets be honest, compared to marvel, DC has not been doing great in the movie department), and yeah that's going to be messy....such things always are. But people get way too excited over this stuff, the time to bring out the hate is when we actually see the new movies and the new trailers, when we have an actual honest to god project to look at. THEN we can say this new direction was awesome or terrible, etc.

That said, I do think the biggest mountain DC may face, is all of this may simply be too late. With Marvel's Phase 4 wanning with some audiences, the specter of "superhero fatigue" is out there. Its INEVITABLE, all genres in movies had their time in the sun, and then waned. At some point, audiences will get tired of superhero movies, and they will want something else. Its not an IF, its a WHEN. DC is investing a lot of money and effort in this change over, and the sad part may be, even if they do a fantastic job with it, knock it out of the park....audiences may have moved on by then. That iron is getting struck, but its looking a bit cold now.


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## S'mon (Dec 11, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Its rumoured that Gunn will be focussing on Amanda Waller as the lynchpin for the new DC Universe and that the One vision will go across all media including Animation.
> 
> so what do you’ll think? will Gunn be a new broom that renews and rebuilds the DC Cinematic presence or is it sign of ongoing doom…




Well I like Gunn's stuff a lot more than anything else I've seen from the "DC Universe", so it fits my own preferences. I like his dark twisted humourous take on things. OTOH that seems a lot more obviously well suited to Harley Quinn than to Superman, say. But I liked his MCU Guardians of the Galaxy films a lot, and plan to see the third one. His stuff always seems a lot smarter and funnier than a fellow 'comedy' director like Taika Watiti. That doesn't mean he is definitely the best man to be in charge of more serious/po-faced super heroes like Superman & Wonder Woman, so I'm suspending judgement there.


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## S'mon (Dec 11, 2022)

GreyLord said:


> The Suicide Squad bombed.




I hadn't realised that - it did well here in the UK AFAICT. I certainly liked it a lot, AIR it was the first thing I saw after the terrible _Black Widow_ film. For me TSS and _Spiderman: No Way Home_ were the only decent superhero films of 2021 (& I don't think there have been any since).


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## Mirtek (Dec 11, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> _The Flash _(originally set to be released March 23, 2018, and now set for June 16, 2023) is an "unlocked picture" and that there are still internal debates about cutting and editing out parts of it.



So they're still trying to figure how to cut out the entirety of Ezra Miller while still keeping it a Flash movie? 



Ryujin said:


> As @billd91 pointed out both the critic and audience scores there are quite high.



That does them no good if all those praising voters do not actually go and watch the movies they are praising.

Either they're not doing that or they are indeed a tiny minority who actually bothers to sign up on some website to rate films. The box office and streaming and home video sales are what matters at the end of the day.



Ryujin said:


> Well I'm afraid that "most people don't" is how a representative sample works.




But if it was representative, why didn't those scores translate into money being made?


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## Ryujin (Dec 11, 2022)

Mirtek said:


> But if it was representative, why didn't those scores translate into money being made?



Because it was released at a time that sufficient people still were not going to theatres.


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## Mercurius (Dec 12, 2022)

At this point I think the best approach is to just start over again, and reboot the whole DC universe. I mean, quite frankly, the DC movies--as a whole--are a mess. There are some good ones, but the whole thing feels fragmented and uneven, and a far cry from the Golden Age of the MCU (phases 1-3, ignoring 4).

The downside of rebooting is that you lose what made the DCEU good: namely, Henry Cavill and Gal Gadot. But as sad as that would be, I think the benefits outweigh the price (not to mention having another excuse to show Ezra Miller the door). So imagine starting afresh, with Clark Kent learning he's Superman, with Bruce Wayne beginning to fight crime, with a very young Flash appealing to the younger views (ala Tom Holland).

They've got movies slated for 2023 and presumably 2024, but if I'm Warner Bros, I'd take a hard look at rebooting in 2025 or so.


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## GreyLord (Dec 12, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Because it was released at a time that sufficient people still were not going to theatres.




And yet Shang-Chi made 3x that amount.  Close release date to it as well.  In fact, TSS was still in theaters at the time.

Black Widow released earlier and with streaming being seen as cutting it's profits made 379 million.

The excues that it was released at a time that sufficient people were not at the theaters might work if other movies in the same genre didn't blow it away in how much was made.  

Eternals which is seen by some as one of the lesser Superhero movies released (more I think of seeing it as boring than other things) made 400 million.

Sure, they all could have made more money, but saying TSS flopped because there weren't enough people willing to go to the theater is kind of incorrect.  

It flopped because there weren't enough people willing to go WATCH TSS in the theater.  That goes for any movie that flops.

And remember, TSS made less money (even if slightly) than Wonder Woman 84.  They just cancelled WW84 but gave the reins to the entire DCU to the guy who made a movie that did worse than it in gross.

One could make an argument that this is discrimination in some ways if we look at it purely from a monetary viewpoint (there are other factors at play here beyond how much the movies made, but from the money viewpoint, it could very well appear to be discrimination against the Woman directors, something that actually goes in line with the claim against Gunn that got him fired [though rehired later] from GoG3 earlier).   It's not a good look for him in some ways.

Hopefully good things come out from his tenure, but right now he is having a ton of bad PR which they probably should turn around if they want to at least start on a good footing.


----------



## Deset Gled (Dec 12, 2022)

Mercurius said:


> At this point I think the best approach is to just start over again, and reboot the whole DC universe.




I'll go a step further: reboot, and forget about the "universe".


----------



## Mallus (Dec 12, 2022)

I’m going to pour a sip out — into my mouth — for the Snyderverse. Those films were good at the things the MCU movies were not. A patently ridiculous grandeur.

Some comic book movies should have that.


----------



## Mercurius (Dec 12, 2022)

Mallus said:


> I’m going to pour a sip out — into my mouth — for the Snyderverse. Those films were good at the things the MCU movies were not. A patently ridiculous grandeur.
> 
> Some comic book movies should have that.



Despite some flaws, I liked Man of Steel. And I actually think Batman v. Superman is overly maligned - I thought the first two-thirds or so was pretty good, with some nice elements (e.g. I loved the "Superman dystopia" dream sequence). The theatrical JL was a horrible movie, but the Snyder cut was, at least, better, if still not great and now overly bloated.

But more to your point, they were, at least, memorable - especially the first two. I can't say as much for the other DCEU movies I've seen. Oh wait, WW1 was good, but WW84 was terrible. Aquaman was completely forgettable and for me, SS was one and done. Haven't seen Shazam or Black Adam, and probably never will (though I've heard people like Shazam).


----------



## Stalker0 (Dec 12, 2022)

Mercurius said:


> (though I've heard people like Shazam).



Yeah if the top 2 DC movies so far are probably WW and Shazam. WW had the more grandiose move and is probably the more rel regarded, I would argue Shazam is in some ways the best made, its just a solid movie that provides a great entertainment with no real flaws, it just gets the job done.


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 12, 2022)

Mercurius said:


> Despite some flaws, I liked Man of Steel. And I actually think Batman v. Superman is overly maligned - I thought the first two-thirds or so was pretty good, with some nice elements (e.g. I loved the "Superman dystopia" dream sequence). The theatrical JL was a horrible movie, but the Snyder cut was, at least, better, if still not great and now overly bloated.
> 
> But more to your point, they were, at least, memorable - especially the first two. I can't say as much for the other DCEU movies I've seen. Oh wait, WW1 was good, but WW84 was terrible. Aquaman was completely forgettable and for me, SS was one and done. Haven't seen Shazam or Black Adam, and probably never will (though I've heard people like Shazam).



"Shazam" was quite good. Just saw "Black Adam" a couple of days ago and wasn't exactly wowed by it. I guess it's most notable for showing The Justice Society of America.


----------



## pukunui (Dec 12, 2022)

_Shazam _is the only DCEU movie I've seen. I thoroughly enjoyed it and am looking forward to the sequel.


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## AnotherGuy (Dec 12, 2022)

Mercurius said:


> And I actually think Batman v. Superman is overly maligned - I thought the first two-thirds or so was pretty good, with some nice elements (e.g. I loved the "Superman dystopia" dream sequence).



This was one of the more frustrating films I watched in that they had a good concept with as you say some nice elements and I absolutely loved the superhero exchanges between the 3 but the rest of the film around them (I felt), crumbled. Frustrating in that I really loved certain parts and completely disliked others. Anyways.


----------



## Umbran (Dec 12, 2022)

GreyLord said:


> We know why it bombed,




It was the pandemic.  Everything bombed.  People's actions were _not_ based on typical notions of movie quality, so the Box Office shouldn't be considered indicative of anything.



GreyLord said:


> but no one really pays attention to the silent watchers..




Well, no.  Because, by your own admission, they are _SILENT_.  Hard to pay attention to someone who isn't telling you anything.


----------



## Rabulias (Dec 12, 2022)

GreyLord said:


> And yet Shang-Chi made 3x that amount.  Close release date to it as well.  In fact, TSS was still in theaters at the time.
> 
> Black Widow released earlier and with streaming being seen as cutting it's profits made 379 million.



Another thing to consider is that these films you compare it to are rated PG-13, while _The Suicide Squad_ was rated R. That immediately cuts a big portion of movie-going folks (perhaps _the _largest?) out of its potential audience, and factors into gauging its financial success.


----------



## DetachedObserver (Dec 12, 2022)

Undrave said:


> That movie is the longest train crash in History! It just keeps getting worst...



It's like the Duke Nuke 'Em Forever of movie "blockbusters"!


----------



## Tonguez (Dec 12, 2022)

Mercurius said:


> Despite some flaws, I liked Man of Steel. And I actually think Batman v. Superman is overly maligned - I thought the first two-thirds or so was pretty good, with some nice elements (e.g. I loved the "Superman dystopia" dream sequence). The theatrical JL was a horrible movie, but the Snyder cut was, at least, better, if still not great and now overly bloated.
> 
> But more to your point, they were, at least, memorable - especially the first two. I can't say as much for the other DCEU movies I've seen.



no BvS deserves to be maligned as it took three iconic and clever comic book stories and mashed them together in a stupid mess that was all brooding spectacle and no substance. Batman the brooding detective was tricked by  a note written in red crayon and Superman was an angst filled whiner who just left advanced Kryptonian tech lying around for anyone to wander into? Pinning Doomsday on the end was a crime and if Snyder wanted a Dystopia they should have just made the Injustice movie.

I dont think Snyders JL cut was better either, just bloated. The chapter structure helped to make it coherent but the Cyborg exposition dump by AR was unnecessary


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## trappedslider (Dec 12, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> I dont think Snyders JL cut was better either, just bloated. The chapter structure helped to make it coherent but the Cyborg exposition dump by AR was unnecessary



IT's what happens when you have two movies (well one and a half fully made) but only four hours


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## FitzTheRuke (Dec 12, 2022)

It's probably just as well to move away from the Snyderverse. Snyder can film a beautiful, iconic shot, but he can't write a story to save his life, nor does he understand character. (In particular, _these_ characters - but I don't think he understands character at all).

Gunn is the opposite - he gets characters. He might be a bit too goofy, though. We'll have to see. Some characters are great with comedy, others not so much. I'd like to see if he can pull off a variety of tone, which is the main thing that the MCU is missing (it's all one tone, for the most part - they all feel the same).

DC's characters need a variety of tones. They can't all be grimdark, but they can't all be slapstick either. (Frankly, that's true of Marvel too).


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## Ryujin (Dec 12, 2022)

Just a brief aside: If you want to see a grimdark Superman style origin story, watch "Brightburn." I think it's on Netflix.

Edit - Produced by James Gunn.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Dec 12, 2022)

Fun fact-

The natural conclusion of James Gunn's career ....







Is to star in an R-rated Colonel Sanders biopic.

_Do you want to know what else is Finger Lickin' Good? Ohhhhh yeah! _


----------



## Undrave (Dec 12, 2022)

Honestly, I feel like there should be TWO DC universe of movie: one for Batman and the other 'Street Detective' types of characters (Green Arrow, The Question, Huntress, Black Canary, etc) and one for the Gods (Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Flash, Shazam, etc). The first one can be more grounded and gritty, with a relatively lower budget where you can give more freedom to Directors, and the other more spectacular and high budget.


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## Undrave (Dec 12, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Fun fact-
> 
> The natural conclusion of James Gunn's career ....
> 
> ...



He could play Sanders in the Colonel of Two Worlds adaptation!


----------



## Mannahnin (Dec 12, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Can't say that it really surprises me all that much. The first Wonder Woman movie was quite good, despite devolving to the usual CGI-fest of an ending. The second movie felt tone deaf to me.



That first one was good and could have been great if they came up with a better ending.  Seriously, beating the god of war in a _fight_?  That's one of those paradoxical seemingly-impossible challenges which screams for a clever solution.  Something more like what Dr. Strange did at the end of _his _first movie.  It'd be thematically appropriate too- in a lot of the Greek myths the heroes win through by cleverness rather than brute force.  Even Hercules with his labors often had to resolve really tricky situations which pure strength wouldn't fix.



ART! said:


> Have you seen his Suicide Squad movie? That is a movie that finds every opportunity to kill people in horrible ways, mostly at the hands of Squad members. I know, I know - they're not "heroes". But...yeesh. And his Guardians of the Galaxy movies enjoy at least one good brutal kill-fest per movie.



The ones in GotG genuinely threw me.  I'm particularly thinking of GotG2, where they break Yondo out and then he just walks through the ship slaughtering everyone.  It was weird and incongruous after the humorous tone of much of the action with the Ravagers, especially with the sense you got watching that most of them would probably follow any strong leader.  I expected either escape or Yondu to take over again, but no- just kill everyone.  Also on review, I guess that faction had spaced all Yondu's loyalists, which again, seemed a bit oddly brutal for a GotG/Marvel movie.  I feel like that plot could have resolved just as easily as the rebellion without the spacing, and Yondu taking command of the Ravagers again, maybe with the deaths of just Taserface and one or two other nasty sorts.


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 12, 2022)

Undrave said:


> Honestly, I feel like there should be TWO DC universe of movie: one for Batman and the other 'Street Detective' types of characters (Green Arrow, The Question, Huntress, Black Canary, etc) and one for the Gods (Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Flash, Shazam, etc). The first one can be more grounded and gritty, with a relatively lower budget where you can give more freedom to Directors, and the other more spectacular and high budget.



I would say that they have just revealed two separate DC universes, however, they aren't split up in that way. The BvS universe is distinct from the "Black Adam" universe. They have effectively done the Earth 1/Earth 2 split with one being the home of the Justice League of America and the other housing The Justice Society of America. Modern Age vs. Golden Age.


----------



## Gradine (Dec 12, 2022)

I'm just hoping that Robert Battenson and friends survive this. I can take or leave everything else


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## Rabulias (Dec 12, 2022)

Gradine said:


> I'm just hoping that Robert Battenson and friends survive this. I can take or leave everything else



I assume you mean Robert Pattinson?


----------



## MGibster (Dec 12, 2022)

Whatever they do, I honestly don't think we need an origin movie for Batman or Superman at this point.  You can certainly have movies that reference their origins, but we don't need to see Clark and Bruce become Superman and Batman.  Just start out with them in that role and go from there.


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## pukunui (Dec 12, 2022)

MGibster said:


> Whatever they do, I honestly don't think we need an origin movie for Batman or Superman at this point.  You can certainly have movies that reference their origins, but we don't need to see Clark and Bruce become Superman and Batman.  Just start out with them in that role and go from there.



Like the MCU did with Spiderman. That worked fine, I thought.


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## Ryujin (Dec 12, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Like the MCU did with Spiderman. That worked fine, I thought.



I think that Pattinson's Batman might be the first time that the DC cinematic universe has skipped an origin story. Maybe they're learning?


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## GreyLord (Dec 13, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I think that Pattinson's Batman might be the first time that the DC cinematic universe has skipped an origin story. Maybe they're learning?




I don't believe they had one for Affleck's Batman either.


----------



## Andvari (Dec 13, 2022)

My opinion on the DC movies I've seen over the last decade.

Man of Steel (2013) - Good
Batman vs Superman (2016) - Crap
Suicide Squad (2016) - Crap
Justice League (2017) - Megacrap
Wonder Woman (2017) - Good
Aquaman (2018) - Mediocre
Joker (2019) - Good
Shazam (2019) - Good
Wonder Woman 1984 (2020) - Crap
The Suicide Squad (2021) - Good
The Batman (2022) - Great

The ending of the first Wonder Woman was sadly a standard CGI hellscape. I thought WW84 was actually off to a good start, but then got worse as the movie progressed. The 2nd attempt at a Suicide Squad movie has a peculiar style of humor which sat well with me. I have not seen the Snyder edition of Justice League. Felt slightly wrong to include Joker, as it's quite a different kind of movie.

Also, I just discovered there's a 2011 Wonder Woman TV movie starring Adrianne Palicki, and Pedro Pascal is in it. Not the best ratings on that one, though.


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## ART! (Dec 14, 2022)

GreyLord said:


> I don't believe they had one for Affleck's Batman either.



Well, he didn't have his own movie, so there kind of wasn't time - that said, we still got a couple references to his origin. That's all you need, really, for these best-known characters.

On the topic of movie-going and box-office in the last couple of years, I think most movie-goers were making stricter decisions about _which_ movie was "worth" the risk of infection to go see. People who normally would have seen both Shang-Chi _and_ The Suicide Squad chose to see only Shang-Chi - or whatever tandem/overlapping releases you want to compare box-office on.


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## Ryujin (Dec 14, 2022)

GreyLord said:


> I don't believe they had one for Affleck's Batman either.



Opening credits.


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## Gradine (Dec 14, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> I assume you mean Robert Pattinson?


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## Tonguez (Dec 14, 2022)

Andvari said:


> .Also, I just discovered there's a 2011 Wonder Woman TV movie starring Adrianne Palicki, and Pedro Pascal is in it. Not the best ratings on that one, though.



wow had never even heard of that before
lol 15 minutes in and Diana Themyscira tells her marketing team quote: “_I never signed off on merchandising my t!ts!” _


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## Gradine (Dec 14, 2022)

It's not even a TV movie, it's a completely unaired pilot for a TV show that never got picked up. Apparently someone ended up leaking it to YouTube. NBC instead opted to give the spot in its lineup to... <checks notes> The Playboy Club. A show that aired all of three episodes. So... we're already at the bottom of the barrel here


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## GreyLord (Dec 14, 2022)

Gradine said:


> It's not even a TV movie, it's a completely unaired pilot for a TV show that never got picked up. Apparently someone ended up leaking it to YouTube. NBC instead opted to give the spot in its lineup to... <checks notes> The Playboy Club. A show that aired all of three episodes. So... we're already at the bottom of the barrel here




I just discovered that the pilot and WW 84 have a common factor between them (besides being considered not that great by many).  

Pedro Pascal is in both of them. 

Hmmm...makes you think...

(Note to self, if ever I am making a WW film  [which I have no inclination nor desire to do, and not even the connections], remember never to hire PP for any role).


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## GreyLord (Dec 15, 2022)

I hope that Gunn has a really good plan.

Right now shock waves seem to be going through a LOT of industries with his current news.  Not that it's unexpected, but the reaction I'm seeing just about everywhere says he has a REALLY REALLY bad PR problem right now (even bad PR is not unexpected and I even said it previously in this thread, but PR THIS bad is what is surprising me, and a reaction THIS massive against it is actually extremely surprising to me).

(It was sort of looking like he wasn't going to have Cavill as Superman, but the aftershocks of it becoming official that I'm seeing is what I'd call a drastic failure of PR).  Take the PR failure of 4e's announcement, or even worse, the PR failure of the Xbox One's initial announcement and the Sony announcement right after and the reactions that came from that...and even THOSE don't seem to equal the fallout I'm hearing right now from this announcement.

I'm don't even own stock in DC, but if I was on their board I'd probably tell them they have to reverse that decision immediately OR jettison Gunn...post haste.  The PR seems to be THAT bad from what I'm hearing from the general (not even specific fan reddits, forums, and commentary on the news, just the general commentary) audiences.

He better be able to make rabbits magically appear out of his hat type of plan because PR like this before you even have the product out can literally sink your sales (Xbox one for comparison, sure, it sold decently, but it never really recovered from that original announcement to be a competitor for the PS4).  [edit: to Gunn's credit he DID take a little known comic that wasn't massively well known and turn it into a successful and well loved film franchise...talking about GotG here folks...so it IS possible he has a plan that MIGHT work, but he didn't have a BAD PR thing at that time, more like a no one knows what it is type PR problem].

I said it before, but after seeing the waves online today, I'd say they have a SERIOUSLY BAD PR problem.  I'd say they really have to get ontop of it pretty soon or it will stand a chance of sinking any hope of success for their Gunn plan before it has even gotten off the ground!

Then again, I'm not a stock holder in Discover/WB/HBO or any of their holdings.  Actually, kind of glad I'm not at this point, though in 2-4 years if they survive they may be a good one to look at buying at that point.  They may know what they are doing, but it sure seems like they are just wandering the ocean without a compass or any sort of navigation at this point to me.


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## AnotherGuy (Dec 15, 2022)

I'm not happy with the direction Gunn has taken with Supes.
We have Spiderman for the 20-year old stories.
More wastage of Henry Cavill.
The Superman that never was (IMO, because I think the DC movies with him in were terrible - and not because of him).


----------



## wicked cool (Dec 15, 2022)

Clearly the studio is banking on Gunn. They are hoping he’s the Jon favreau for them . If he is then they made the right decision. I would have never thought that favreau could save Star Wars but he has

There’s been a theme for the good (mandalorian, newest Batman, Andor etc). The theme is good directing/good acting/good  and if there’s social messaging it’s not in your face. The theme is the opposite for the 2 new Star Wars trilogies/the aquaman movies/Wonder Woman/Jurassic park Pratt movies etc. the directors were terrible/acting bad and special effects bad and story’s are bad
Cavill got screwed and i feel bad for him but he must have seen that the Witcher was borderline a dumpster fire waiting to happen
Audiences are starting to wake up with this economy. Word of mouth/online that top gun maverick was good and worth seeing. Your seeing less and less of this especially post pandemic 
Going to be really curious on how avatar 2 fares


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## Snarf Zagyg (Dec 15, 2022)

AnotherGuy said:


> *I'm not happy with the direction Gun has taken with Supes.*
> We have Spiderman for the 20-year old stories.
> More wastage of Henry Cavill.
> The Superman that never was (IMO, because I think the DC movies with him in were terrible - and not because of him).




How do we know what direction Gunn has taken?

As I wrote in this thread...

"In other words, it is a company with a crippling debt burden looking for a way out. Maybe that will be a sale, or maybe that will be a continued pivot to a lesser version of what it once was. But when looking at any decision made by HBOMax (or the parent studio), don't think of it in terms of creative decision-making, or the fans, or even the future of the company ... just remember ... _53 billion in debt needs to be serviced."_

While we don't know the full scope of the plans, yet, we can see the following is the likely path:

1. Anything related to the Snyderverse? Gone. 
2. Anything related to the Rock's attempt to insert himself? Gone.
3. Anything previously planned, but not yet filmed? Gone (but see 4).
4. Matt Reeve's Batman Detective and Todd Phillips Joker? Still good.

Pretty simple. People want to make this about artistic choices. In the future? Maybe. But it's not. It's about cash.

General rule of Hollywood is that it always costs more for the return than the start. The reason that Marvel wants to replace its actors with new actors isn't because that's what is creatively demanded- it's because it gets really expensive once the initial option contracts run out. 

If Black Adam had made a ton of money, it might be different. _It didn't_.
Reeves and Phillips will survive because they are still reasonably low cost, and both made money.
Everything else? Getting reset to lower costs. Because the star of the franchise isn't Cavill- it's Superman.


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## Stalker0 (Dec 15, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Because the star of the franchise isn't Cavill- it's Superman.



This is a good point. Now Cavill did a great job, but he is not irreplacable in the role. We have had a line of actors play superman, and there are several actors that can play him still.

I also think part of this is you want to clear the slate, and keeping existing actors leads to confusion. It would be weird to have a non-synderverse Superman....but have your synderverse actor in it. People would get confused. When you have a new actor, that's an immediate signal that "this is different".

The one thing I do feel for Cavill on, the rumors about him leaving the witcher are endless, but one of the consistent ones is.... "he left the role to play Superman" If that's the case, pretty heartbreaking. But again that's just a rumor, based on the mill it seems equally likely he didn't like the direction they were going on the show, or he had a falling out with the writers, or XYZ (lots of rumors flying around).


----------



## AnotherGuy (Dec 15, 2022)

But Snarf, I'm still not happy!!!


----------



## darjr (Dec 15, 2022)

I’m just saying.


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## darjr (Dec 15, 2022)

I think DC is mostly cursed.


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## AnotherGuy (Dec 15, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> How do we know what direction Gunn has taken?
> 
> As I wrote in this thread...
> 
> ...



I discussed your post with a friend and his feeling was that's why he thought they brought Cavill back because he was bankable with young with old with men and women. 

Out of interest  how much more would Cavill earn as opposed to someone new? I don't think Dwayne Johnson is as bankable as Cavill.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Dec 15, 2022)

AnotherGuy said:


> I discussed your post with a friend and his feeling was that's why he thought they brought Cavill back because he was bankable with young with old with men and women.
> 
> Out of interest  how much more would Cavill earn as opposed to someone new? I don't think Dwayne Johnson is as bankable as Cavill.




Nope. Fun fact-Henry Cavill and the Rock share a personal trainer.

_More importantly, the Rock's business partner is Cavill's agent_.*

It had nothing to do with bankability. This was purely a power play by the Rock. He demanded the inclusion of Cavill. The Rock was hoping to dictate the terms of the DC Universe going forward.

Black Adam flopped. The Rock lost all his leverage. Pretty simple. 


*Hollywood is driven by relationships.


----------



## Cadence (Dec 15, 2022)

I'm trying to picture what hasn't been done before in the movies and what could break new ground (on the big screen anyway).

Superboy movie followed by Legion wouldn't have enough built in audience, would it?


----------



## FitzTheRuke (Dec 15, 2022)

Cadence said:


> I'm trying to picture what hasn't been done before in the movies and what could break new ground (on the big screen anyway).
> 
> Superboy movie followed by Legion wouldn't have enough built in audience, would it?



One thing Gunn knows: You don't need a built-in audience. Guardians of the Galaxy did not have a built-in audience. Peacemaker did not have a built-in audience. You need to have a vision, a good cast, and make a movie that can show a good-looking trailer. Make a good film, the audience will come.

A concept like yours has the added benefit of less preconceived notions - which are death to a project in our current times. "Fans" are toxic. "Insult" them even a little (by messing with their expectations) and they will _bury_ you.

Superboy and the Legion is actually a good idea (though it might make a better TV show than movie franchise - though they really need to get away from the CW-tone of their TV shows. Go for action/adventure rather than schlocky pseudo-romance; which isn't to say that the characters shouldn't have relationships, they should, just less soapy, IMO).


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## Snarf Zagyg (Dec 15, 2022)

FitzTheRuke said:


> Superboy and the Legion is actually a good idea (though it might make a better TV show than movie franchise - though they really need to get away from the CW-tone of their TV shows. Go for action/adventure rather than schlocky pseudo-romance; which isn't to say that the characters shouldn't have relationships, they should, just less soapy, IMO).




_Legion is such a good idea for a TV show, they probably should have made it already!_
-My avatar, confusingly.


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 15, 2022)

FitzTheRuke said:


> One thing Gunn knows: You don't need a built-in audience. Guardians of the Galaxy did not have a built-in audience. Peacemaker did not have a built-in audience. You need to have a vision, a good cast, and make a movie that can show a good-looking trailer. Make a good film, the audience will come.
> 
> A concept like yours has the added benefit of less preconceived notions - which are death to a project in our current times. "Fans" are toxic. "Insult" them even a little (by messing with their expectations) and they will _bury_ you.
> 
> Superboy and the Legion is actually a good idea (though it might make a better TV show than movie franchise - though they really need to get away from the CW-tone of their TV shows. Go for action/adventure rather than schlocky pseudo-romance; which isn't to say that the characters shouldn't have relationships, they should, just less soapy, IMO).



I just made the "Guardians" reference in another thread, but with the suggestion of going for "Justice League Dark."


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## Snarf Zagyg (Dec 15, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I just made the "Guardians" reference in another thread, but with the suggestion of going for "Justice League Dark."




I love Justice League Dark (they have some animated stuff in the DCAU), but I don't think it would be a good idea to start with for the live-action movies. It's ... well, it's dark! To do it ... JUSTICE ... you'd probably need to go R, and that's not the sure-fire money maker.

Honestly, a complete revamp of Batman Beyond _might work_. Or maybe Green Lantern - I think most people have forgotten the Reynolds movie.

The issue with DC is that they have a TOP TOP TOP tier (call it the "Justice League" tier) and then they have a lot of C-level heroes, but not much in between. Marvel has a lot more of the "B" types. IMO. And while Guardians worked, it only worked after the hard work of establishing the MCU was already done.

Plus, there is the possibility that superhero fatigue might actually be setting in.


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## Cadence (Dec 15, 2022)

Do they own Fables? (Which, granted is its own thing and not supers, and I really don't want them to ruin it...)


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## Gradine (Dec 15, 2022)

Now that he's free from all major entanglements Henry Cavill can return to chasing his true dream, finding somebody to talk about his Warhammer collection with.


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## RuinousPowers (Dec 15, 2022)

I always thought it was unusual that the comic universe where everyone has a teenage sidekick decided to be the grimy dark one.


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## Ryujin (Dec 15, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> I love Justice League Dark (they have some animated stuff in the DCAU), but I don't think it would be a good idea to start with for the live-action movies. It's ... well, it's dark! To do it ... JUSTICE ... you'd probably need to go R, and that's not the sure-fire money maker.
> 
> Honestly, a complete revamp of Batman Beyond _might work_. Or maybe Green Lantern - I think most people have forgotten the Reynolds movie.
> 
> ...



The super hero fatigue thing is also one of the reasons why I think that Dark might actually work. "Deadpool" shows that an R rated supes movie can work as does "Constantine", to specifically reference someone from Dark. Either Keanu or Matt Ryan would work in the part, tying into what has gone before.

I've always been skeptical of anyone making a Green Lantern movie that could work. It's just too silly, visually. Giant green hammers and slapping hands?


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## Snarf Zagyg (Dec 15, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I've always been skeptical of anyone making a Green Lantern movie that could work. It's just too silly, visually. Giant green hammers and slapping hands?




You saw the last two Thor movies?

The Guardians of the Galaxy movies?

I have given up on what _could _work.


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## Deset Gled (Dec 15, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Honestly, a complete revamp of Batman Beyond _might work_.




Does Batman Beyond hold up?  I remember thinking it was super cool and awesome and all that when it was first on, but I also haven't seen it since the 90's.  Some of the sci-fi parts that I remember feel like they may be pretty hokey today.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Dec 15, 2022)

Deset Gled said:


> Does Batman Beyond hold up?  I remember thinking it was super cool and awesome and all that when it was first on, but I also haven't seen it since the 90's.  Some of the sci-fi parts that I remember feel like they may be pretty hokey today.




You couldn't do it like it was originally - the anime-influenced vaguely cyberpunk future wouldn't quite work.

But the core theme of the relationship between an aging and bitter Bruce Wayne and a young brash Terry McGinnis would absolutely work. There's a lot of build off of right there.


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 15, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> You saw the last two Thor movies?
> 
> The Guardians of the Galaxy movies?
> 
> I have given up on what _could _work.



I have. Still not as silly as giant green pillows catching falling citizens.


----------



## FitzTheRuke (Dec 15, 2022)

Cadence said:


> Do they own Fables? (Which, granted is its own thing and not supers, and I really don't want them to ruin it...)




They co-own Fables with Bill Willingham. The trouble with Fables is, corporate quickly realizes that all the characters are open license, and you can "just make your own" so they do like they did with "Once Upon a Time" - a TV show, that AFAIR started life as a Fables show, until they decided that they had changed enough that they didn't want to give Willingham his cut.


----------



## FitzTheRuke (Dec 15, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> You couldn't do it like it was originally - the anime-influenced vaguely cyberpunk future wouldn't quite work.
> 
> But the core theme of the relationship between an aging and bitter Bruce Wayne and a young brash Terry McGinnis would absolutely work. There's a lot of build off of right there.




I think that was planned, with Michael Keaton playing Bruce, but got scrapped along with all the rest. 

As an adside, while I like Gal Godot, I'm kinda happy that WW3 isn't going to happen. When WW1 hit, it was like "Wow! That was _almost_ really good! Too bad the studio (probably) made them change the third act into a horrible CG battle that also ruined the story."

So you make the assumption that given more freedom, Patty Jenkins would turn in a better WW movie. Apparently NOT.


----------



## Deset Gled (Dec 15, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> You couldn't do it like it was originally - the anime-influenced vaguely cyberpunk future wouldn't quite work.
> 
> But the core theme of the relationship between an aging and bitter Bruce Wayne and a young brash Terry McGinnis would absolutely work. There's a lot of build off of right there.




For me, it would be a hard sell to call something Batman Beyond without the cyberpunk schtick.  You could definitely create a new Batman spin off with the same "passing the torch" theme and still get me excited though.


----------



## Tonguez (Dec 15, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> You couldn't do it like it was originally - the anime-influenced vaguely cyberpunk future wouldn't quite work.
> 
> But the core theme of the relationship between an aging and bitter Bruce Wayne and a young brash Terry McGinnis would absolutely work. There's a lot of build off of right there.



I think Batman Beyond would work better since its a lot more near-future now than it was in 1999. The show worked due to the Bruce-Terry relationship and its dystopian urban vibe, post-Covid makes dystopian urban life much more familiar.

I was thinking that considering superhero fatigue maybe DC could leverage its non-supers and roll out a series of movies like Gotham Central (Police Procedural) or Gotham Academy* or something espionage related (Sgt Rock and Amanda Waller might feature)

* Weird High School cashing in on Wednesday success


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Dec 15, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> I think Batman Beyond would work better since its a lot more near-future now than it was in 1999. The show worked due to the Bruce-Terry relationship and its dystopian urban vibe, p*ost-Covid makes dystopian urban life much more familiar*.




You really know how to bring sad reality into fun superhero discussions! 


_ETA- you don't have to imagine a dystopia. You're living in it! _


----------



## wicked cool (Dec 15, 2022)

I don’t think superhero fatigue has set in. I think the new spiderman animated movie will do really well and I expect guardians will do well. I just watched the guardians holiday special and it was well done. Same with werewolf by night


----------



## Gradine (Dec 15, 2022)

I think superhero fatigue is wishful thinking from the kinds of people who think bashing Marvel/Disney online will earn them brownie points with their respective audiences. There is very little evidence that people are getting tired of these things in the larger scale. As long as they're essentially a license to print money then they're gonna keep coming out and earning bank


----------



## pukunui (Dec 15, 2022)

As previously stated, I know nothing about the DCEU. Is Amanda Waller basically a female Nick Fury?


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Dec 15, 2022)

Gradine said:


> I think superhero fatigue is wishful thinking from the kinds of people who think bashing Marvel/Disney online will earn them brownie points with their respective audiences. There is very little evidence that people are getting tired of these things in the larger scale. As long as they're essentially a license to print money then they're gonna keep coming out and earning bank




Maybe? I do know some people that are super wishful for the end of the Marvel/DC hegemony on popular culture (call it the Scorsese school). 

Thing is - they will be right, eventually. All of these things come and go. When you're in it, it looks like it will last forever because of _reasons_. And once the tide starts to flow out, you wonder why it ever achieved and maintained such cultural dominance for so long. 

Whether it's one year, five years, or twenty years, it will fade and something new will be there to annoy people. There will always be superheroes, of course, I just think that history tells us that eventually the culture will move on to something else.


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 15, 2022)

pukunui said:


> As previously stated, I know nothing about the DCEU. Is Amanda Waller basically a female Nick Fury?



If Nick Fury had absolutely no real moral compass and would do anything to get the job done, then yes.


----------



## Cadence (Dec 15, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Maybe? I do know some people that are super wishful for the end of the Marvel/DC hegemony on popular culture (call it the Scorsese school).
> 
> Thing is - they will be right, eventually. All of these things come and go. When you're in it, it looks like it will last forever because of _reasons_. And once the tide starts to flow out, you wonder why it ever achieved and maintained such cultural dominance for so long.
> 
> Whether it's one year, five years, or twenty years, it will fade and something new will be there to annoy people. There will always be superheroes, of course, I just think that history tells us that eventually the culture will move on to something else.




So, you're saying the mouse should hold off on the SW stuff for a few years to be ready...


----------



## Deset Gled (Dec 15, 2022)

Gradine said:


> I think superhero fatigue is wishful thinking from the kinds of people who think bashing Marvel/Disney online will earn them brownie points with their respective audiences. There is very little evidence that people are getting tired of these things in the larger scale.




I certainly feel superhero fatigue on a personal level.


----------



## Tonguez (Dec 15, 2022)

Cadence said:


> So, you're saying the mouse should hold off on the SW stuff for a few years to be ready...




Well I’m seeing some big blue aliens on the horizon which Disney has already got spun into theme park rides. I suppose if that works we could be seeing a lot more Space Colonialism on the screen


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 15, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Well I’m seeing some big blue aliens on the horizon which Disney has already got spun into theme park rides. I suppose if that works we could be seeing a lot more Space Colonialism on the screen



Indeed. No doubt in conjunction with how said colonists met "aliens" on another planet.


----------



## Stalker0 (Dec 15, 2022)

Gradine said:


> I think superhero fatigue is wishful thinking from the kinds of people who think bashing Marvel/Disney online will earn them brownie points with their respective audiences. There is very little evidence that people are getting tired of these things in the larger scale.



Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it. Every other genre that hollywood went nuts over eventually audiences got tired of. It would be wishful thinking to assume superhero fatigue wouldn't kick in at some point, its just a question of when.


----------



## Gradine (Dec 15, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it. Every other genre that hollywood went nuts over eventually audiences got tired of. It would be wishful thinking to assume superhero fatigue wouldn't kick in at some point, its just a question of when.



Of course it will happen _eventually_. I think that a lot of people are trying to argue that it's closing in on the horizon, and I just don't see it.


----------



## GreyLord (Dec 16, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Well I’m seeing some big blue aliens on the horizon which Disney has already got spun into theme park rides. I suppose if that works we could be seeing a lot more Space Colonialism on the screen






Spoiler



Aren't the Colonists supposed to be the Bad Guys in this one though?


----------



## FitzTheRuke (Dec 16, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> If Nick Fury had absolutely no real moral compass and would do anything to get the job done, then yes.



Also Waller is often responsible for the very "Threat to America" that she's supposedly trying to prevent. Both movies did that part well, IMO.

Nick Fury, on the other hand, usually (Original Sin comic aside) actually does a good job of cleaning up messes.


----------



## Tonguez (Dec 16, 2022)

GreyLord said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't the Colonists supposed to be the Bad Guys in this one though?



Yes - but its okay because one of them learns the error of his colonising ways and saves the Nat’ivees from the imperialist


----------



## Rabulias (Dec 16, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Thing is - they will be right, eventually. All of these things come and go. When you're in it, it looks like it will last forever because of _reasons_. And once the tide starts to flow out, you wonder why it ever achieved and maintained such cultural dominance for so long.



Will they? Are they in same boat of folks that wish cop shows, legal dramas, medical dramas, and sitcoms will leave TV? I think we may see the public's taste in the superhero genre change over time. Much like we have seen the action hero movie genre change over the years (another genre that people have said will die any day now....), but it will still be with us.


----------



## Rabulias (Dec 16, 2022)

And now it sounds like Henry Cavill may land in a happy place after all:









						Henry Cavill, noted Warhammer nerd, to star in and produce Warhammer 40,000 series at Amazon
					

It's been a busy week for the erstwhile Man of Steel.




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## FitzTheRuke (Dec 16, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> And now it sounds like Henry Cavill may land in a happy place after all:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Cavill's gonna have fun with it, at least. Heck, maybe he'll pull off a good Warhammer movie. Stranger things have happened.


----------



## AnotherGuy (Dec 16, 2022)

Well Angry Joe had a nice rant on this and the Cavill situation...
In July 2021 James Gunn said (paraphrasing)  _he doesn't think Superman and JL is a fun playground because everyone has an idea on it...
but now this dude has an idea for Supes and he has been writing it and it is ready to go??!! So he is throwing out HC for an idea he had within the last year._


----------



## John R Davis (Dec 16, 2022)

And on the BBC so must be true 
Nice bump for GW shareholders too.









						Warhammer to be made into film and TV show, starring Superman actor Henry Cavill
					

The ex-Superman star and fan of the miniature wargame has called the move a "dream come true".



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Gradine (Dec 16, 2022)

Gradine said:


> Now that he's free from all major entanglements Henry Cavill can return to chasing his true dream, finding somebody to talk about his Warhammer collection with.



Called it


----------



## Henadic Theologian (Dec 16, 2022)

This had to happen, outside of a few movies the DCEU was complete garbage, I mean why Henry, Pierce, and the Rock can't save a fun movie, then nothing can save the DCEU, I think Zaslav realized that, pull the trigger killing it, but like jerk left James Gunn holding the bag for it.

 I also think within the 5 years Marvel will do something similar when they realize none of their movies are going to make a billion dollars anymore and that all the most popular characters are either dead or ruined.

 I've been saying we are seeing the beginning of the end of the Superhero genre's dominance.

 D&D movies and Warhammer and such are the future.


----------



## Henadic Theologian (Dec 16, 2022)

Undrave said:


> Honestly, I feel like there should be TWO DC universe of movie: one for Batman and the other 'Street Detective' types of characters (Green Arrow, The Question, Huntress, Black Canary, etc) and one for the Gods (Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Flash, Shazam, etc). The first one can be more grounded and gritty, with a relatively lower budget where you can give more freedom to Directors, and the other more spectacular and high budget.




 They might have that between the Gunnverse and the Jokerverse.


----------



## Undrave (Dec 16, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> D&D movies and Warhammer and such are the future.



If Sonic (and seemingly Mario despite the lacklustre casting of the main character) can teach the right lessons, we MIGHT just see more good video game movies too...


----------



## Benjamin Olson (Dec 16, 2022)

I don't particularly like superhero movies and have not watched the majority of the Snyderverse era DC movies, so I guess I don't have a dog in this fight. James Gunn has consistently made superhero movies that I (and I think many other superhero movie ambivalent people) like, so on the level of "guy who can broaden appeal beyond the superhero movie junkies" he makes a lot of sense to put in charge.

That said, he is also a hands-on, auteur filmmaker type who seems to relish writing his own screenplays, curating the soundtrack of his films, etc. He wrote every episode of Peacemaker. He wrote and directed the Guardians of the Galaxy Holiday Special himself, which is the sort of thing traditionally handed off to someone lower profile. Which is all to say that he seems like someone who, as a "cinematic universe executive" will either find himself too removed from too much of the creative particulars to find satisfaction, or who will work himself to exhaustion trying to stay hands on.

My prediction is that James Gunn era DC will produce several movies I like, but won't last very long.


----------



## trappedslider (Dec 17, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> This had to happen, outside of a few movies the DCEU was complete garbage, I mean why Henry, Pierce, and the Rock can't save a fun movie, then nothing can save the DCEU, I think Zaslav realized that, pull the trigger killing it, but like jerk left James Gunn holding the bag for it.
> 
> I also think within the 5 years Marvel will do something similar when they realize none of their movies are going to make a billion dollars anymore and that all the most popular characters are either dead or ruined.
> 
> ...


----------



## Henadic Theologian (Dec 17, 2022)

In related news, turns out The Rock did not unfollow Black Adam and WB Discovery on Instagram, he never followed them to begin with.


----------



## Aeson (Dec 17, 2022)

Gradine said:


> Now that he's free from all major entanglements Henry Cavill can return to chasing his true dream, finding somebody to talk about his Warhammer collection with.



Something tells me the girl won't get bored and walk away like she would if I told her about my Warhammer collection.


----------



## overgeeked (Dec 18, 2022)

DC Comics sues freelancer over 30-year-old story he wrote that _*he claims*_ they stole to make _The Batman_ film. Weird story.


----------



## Tonguez (Dec 18, 2022)

N


overgeeked said:


> DC Comics sues freelancer over 30-year-old story he wrote that they stole to make The Batman film. Weird story.



Now that going to be a massive can of worms for that industry


----------



## overgeeked (Dec 18, 2022)

Two articles on the topic.









						Chris Wozniak Sues WB For Copyright Infringement Over 'The Batman'
					

It appears that penciler Chris Wozniak has decided to sue Warner Bros for accusations of plagiarism regarding The Batman.




					www.screengeek.net
				












						Chris Wozniak Starts A GoFundMe Claiming DC Comics Is Suing Him
					

Chris Wozniak is a longstanding comic book creator, best known as an artist on comic books such as Excalibur, The Spectre, Justice League of America,



					bleedingcool.com


----------



## overgeeked (Dec 18, 2022)

Anyone who’s a comics fan for more than a year or two could very likely pound out every possible iteration of an iconic character’s story. No idea where this is going. Here’s to hoping it’s honest iteration on a theme rather than outright plagiarism.


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 18, 2022)

If DC was taking submissions on-spec then they have zero leg to stand on, and may well end up with the dirty end of the stick in a counter suit.

_EDIT_ - Ah, wait. Nevermind. Wozniak already sued DC over the story and this is a counter suit by DC. That's pretty much par for the litigious course.


----------



## trappedslider (Dec 19, 2022)




----------



## overgeeked (Dec 19, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> View attachment 270028



Swap that out for Christopher Reeve and absolutely.


----------



## ART! (Dec 19, 2022)

Cadence said:


> I'm trying to picture what hasn't been done before in the movies and what could break new ground (on the big screen anyway).
> 
> Superboy movie followed by Legion wouldn't have enough built in audience, would it?






FitzTheRuke said:


> One thing Gunn knows: You don't need a built-in audience. Guardians of the Galaxy did not have a built-in audience. Peacemaker did not have a built-in audience. You need to have a vision, a good cast, and make a movie that can show a good-looking trailer. Make a good film, the audience will come.
> 
> A concept like yours has the added benefit of less preconceived notions - which are death to a project in our current times. "Fans" are toxic. "Insult" them even a little (by messing with their expectations) and they will _bury_ you.
> 
> Superboy and the Legion is actually a good idea (though it might make a better TV show than movie franchise - though they really need to get away from the CW-tone of their TV shows. Go for action/adventure rather than schlocky pseudo-romance; which isn't to say that the characters shouldn't have relationships, they should, just less soapy, IMO).



I'm not sure I want to see Gunn's vision of LSH, but a) I'm curious, b) it would at least have inspired moments, and c) I really want some live-action LSH, so bring it on!


Henadic Theologian said:


> D&D movies and Warhammer and such are the future.



Wouldn't it be something if the D&D movie is so successful it spawns sequels, a streaming series or three, and a bandwagon full of fantasy films and series that aren't direct adaptations of fantasy novels, but instead inspired by recognizable brands including video games and even even other RPGs? Pathfinder trilogy, anyone? Skyrim Universe?


----------



## trappedslider (Dec 19, 2022)

Finally, the time has come.


----------



## ART! (Dec 20, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Finally, the time has come.
> View attachment 270105View attachment 270106



And added bonus: now he's old enough to play _Kingdom Come_ Superman!


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 20, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Finally, the time has come.
> View attachment 270105View attachment 270106



If any of you haven't yet seen the documentary "The Death of Superman Lives: What Happened", you really need to.


----------



## Kaodi (Dec 20, 2022)

The thing about "superhero fatigue" is that it can be both real and insufficient. Like, even if I am a little tired of superhero movies I am still going to watch them as long as they deliver on the baseline premise of the genre. I am sure long time fans of Law & Order get tired too but those series are still going and going in some form or another.


----------



## ART! (Dec 20, 2022)

Kaodi said:


> The thing about "superhero fatigue" is that it can be both real and insufficient. Like, even if I am a little tired of superhero movies I am still going to watch them as long as they deliver on the baseline premise of the genre. I am sure long time fans of Law & Order get tired too but those series are still going and going in some form or another.



Yeah - westerns "died out", but they still make 'em!


----------



## Stalker0 (Dec 20, 2022)

ART! said:


> Yeah - westerns "died out", but they still make 'em!



Fatigue doesn’t mean dead, it means no longer raking in money hand over fist. Sure they will keep making movies but they aren’t going to be top of the chart blockbusters and you’ll see a lot fewer of them each year.


----------



## Tonguez (Dec 20, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Fatigue doesn’t mean dead, it means no longer raking in money hand over fist. Sure they will keep making movies but they aren’t going to be top of the chart blockbusters and you’ll see a lot fewer of them each year.



Yeah, this. Afterall the first Superhero movie I saw at a theatre was Spiderman in 1979! Superheroes have featured throughout cinema (100 years if you count Zorro) but the current glut is far beyond anything previously, kinda how Westerns dominated the 50/60s and Action Movies the 80s.


----------



## Grendel_Khan (Dec 20, 2022)

In hindsight Gunn seems inevitable—after being a critical laughingstock pretty consistently since Man of Steel, DC must have seen Gunn's rave reviews for The Suicide Squad and Peacemaker as an oasis in the desert. People love to trash or dismiss critics (especially MCU diehards!) but that stuff has cumulative weight, and it gets embarrassing within the industry when everyone knows your stuff collectively sucks.

But how cool is it that it's someone like Gunn? Whatever you think about how Gunn might tackle the kind of material he hasn't before (like the young Superman project) it's pretty amazing to have someone as genuinely smart and, at least as a writer, absolutely anti-establishment as him. Peacemaker and The Suicide Squad are hopeful on a personal level while tearing traditional supercop nonsense to shreds. And Gunn is actually very funny, in ways that stuff like Thor: Love & Thunder completely whiffed at. Also his stuff is insanely memorable, which isn't true of almost any superhero movies.

Whatever he makes or helps make, I'll bet it won't just be "watchable" filler. That seems exciting even for people like me who want the entire superhero thing to fly into the sun already.


Also, after WW84, Patty Jenkins deserves to be in director jail for a while. No one took that project away from her or turned it into something it wasn't supposed to be. It was hers through and through, and it was maybe the dumbest superhero movie since Corman's unreleased Fantastic Four.


----------



## Grendel_Khan (Dec 20, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Opening credits.




Snyder should stop denying himself and just make an entire movie in unbroken slomo.


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 20, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> In hindsight Gunn seems inevitable—after being a critical laughingstock pretty consistently since Man of Steel, DC must have seen Gunn's rave reviews for The Suicide Squad and Peacemaker as an oasis in the desert. People love to trash or dismiss critics (especially MCU diehards!) but that stuff has cumulative weight, and it gets embarrassing within the industry when everyone knows your stuff collectively sucks.
> 
> But how cool is it that it's someone like Gunn? Whatever you think about how Gunn might tackle the kind of material he hasn't before (like the young Superman project) it's pretty amazing to have someone as genuinely smart and, at least as a writer, absolutely anti-establishment as him. Peacemaker and The Suicide Squad are hopeful on a personal level while tearing traditional supercop nonsense to shreds. And Gunn is actually very funny, in ways that stuff like Thor: Love & Thunder completely whiffed at. Also his stuff is insanely memorable, which isn't true of almost any superhero movies.
> 
> ...



Funny thing is that Corman's FF was closer to the comics than the recent two outings and the only thing really laughable was the budget.


----------



## ART! (Dec 20, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Funny thing is that Corman's FF was closer to the comics than the recent two outings and the only thing really laughable was the budget.



Yes - that movie's heart is in the right place. 

I like to think of Tim Story's FF movies as really good made-for-tv- or direct-to-video-type movies. 

Josh Trank's FF movie is...
...
...technically well-made? I guess?


----------



## Grendel_Khan (Dec 20, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Funny thing is that Corman's FF was closer to the comics than the recent two outings and the only thing really laughable was the budget.




Those are some seriously rose-tinted glasses, but you do you. When I interned at Marvel the bullpen folks (inkers, letterers, etc.) did a screening in the office with a bootleg VHS, and it was maybe the funniest moviegoing experience I've ever had. I guess it had that going for it? I kind of miss the days of every Marvel movie being bad-even-for-a-B-movie.

And man, every single shot of Mr. Fantastic stretching....hoo boy.


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 20, 2022)

ART! said:


> Yes - that movie's heart is in the right place.
> 
> I like to think of Tim Story's FF movies as really good made-for-tv- or direct-to-video-type movies.
> 
> ...



I already had my issues with the 2005 FF movie when they took one of the most beautiful actresses in the world, stuck her in a blonde wig, and slapped blue contacts on her.

The 2015 movie..... ugh.

IMDB is already listing the next movie for 2025, with very little info.


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 20, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> Those are some seriously rose-tinted glasses, but you do you. When I interned at Marvel the bullpen folks (inkers, letterers, etc.) did a screening in the office with a bootleg VHS, and it was maybe the funniest moviegoing experience I've ever had. I guess it had that going for it? I kind of miss the days of every Marvel movie being bad-even-for-a-B-movie.
> 
> And man, every single shot of Mr. Fantastic stretching....hoo boy.



Maybe so, as I see it in light of things like the 1977 "The Amazing Spiderman" TV series and that I actually like Corman's schlock style.

In case some haven't already seen it...

TRAILER


FULL MOVIE


----------



## Myrdin Potter (Dec 20, 2022)

I enjoy Cavill as an actor. I did not like the murdering Superman (nor the gun crazy Batman) that came from the last grouping of DC movies. So I agree that a change is needed.


----------



## Shades of Eternity (Dec 21, 2022)

Bring Back Brandon Routh then.

He was really good in the role and has a strong connection to the arrowverse.

He'd be an older superman, but he's the best superman we got since Christopher Reeve.


----------



## MGibster (Dec 21, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> Those are some seriously rose-tinted glasses, but you do you. When I interned at Marvel the bullpen folks (inkers, letterers, etc.) did a screening in the office with a bootleg VHS, and it was maybe the funniest moviegoing experience I've ever had. I guess it had that going for it? I kind of miss the days of every Marvel movie being bad-even-for-a-B-movie.
> 
> And man, every single shot of Mr. Fantastic stretching....hoo boy.



I just watched it within the last two years, and there's no doubt that it's not a very good movie.  But if felt more like the Fantastic Four than the first Fantastic Four movie released to theaters.  I'm not arguing it's a better movie, but it had more respect for its source material.


----------



## Umbran (Dec 21, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> But how cool is it that it's someone like Gunn?




He's... kind of one note these days.  It is all the same sort of comedy.  So, I'm not at all sure he's a good leader for a stable of characters who should be handled with _different styles_, many of which aren't all that intrinsically funny.

Because, if he does a Justice League that is basically the Suicide Squad or Guardians of the Galaxy, that's not going to be a good thing.


----------



## Tonguez (Dec 21, 2022)

Umbran said:


> He's... kind of one note these days.  It is all the same sort of comedy.  So, I'm not at all sure he's a good leader for a stable of characters who should be handled with _different styles_, many of which aren't all that intrinsically funny.
> 
> Because, if he does a Justice League that is basically the Suicide Squad or Guardians of the Galaxy, that's not going to be a good thing.



Absolutely, MCU has pretty much cornered the Humourous  Action Spectacle market and even if Gunnis willing to go R-rated, making DC Humourous Action Spectacles would be absolutely the worst idea.

Sure we dont need the grimm pain of Snyders Superman but lets not turn everything in to Peacemaker either


----------



## AnotherGuy (Dec 21, 2022)

Shades of Eternity said:


> Bring Back Brandon Routh then.
> 
> He was really good in the role and has a strong connection to the arrowverse.
> 
> He'd be an older superman, but he's the best superman we got since Christopher Reeve.



He looks the part but doesn't have the hard edge which Cavill has got and which sometimes Superman needs.
IMO the real problem they have is producing a decent script.


----------



## Shades of Eternity (Dec 21, 2022)

no Superman needs to be the sort that talks down a jumper by hugging them.

and also takes down the clan while being completely fictional.

none of this hard edge nonsense that gave us objectivist superman.


----------



## AnotherGuy (Dec 21, 2022)

Shades of Eternity said:


> no Superman needs to be the sort that talks down a jumper by hugging them.
> 
> and also takes down the clan while being completely fictional.
> 
> none of this hard edge nonsense that gave us objectivist superman.



LOL. Yeah, sounds like you're reading hard edge = murder which is not what I was going for.
I'm not sure what work the word fictional is doing in your post. Is it the opposite of compassionate hugging?
And if Supes is battling the clan in the next movie then you're just accentuating my point about a decent script


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## Shades of Eternity (Dec 21, 2022)

time for a history lesson
for starters the actual radio show

warning it is a product of its time

if you prefer, here's a webvideo that does a great job explaining it.

Hope that helps.


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## trappedslider (Dec 21, 2022)

hmmm, Silver Age/golden age Superman with heavy topics of later ages...


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## Shades of Eternity (Dec 21, 2022)

That's thing

the 1978 movie was that.

Superman was considered outdated and hocky at the time.

Didn't change the fact the movie was awesome and pretty much the best superhero movie until recent times.


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## ART! (Dec 21, 2022)

Umbran said:


> He's... kind of one note these days.  It is all the same sort of comedy.  So, I'm not at all sure he's a good leader for a stable of characters who should be handled with _different styles_, many of which aren't all that intrinsically funny.
> 
> Because, if he does a Justice League that is basically the Suicide Squad or Guardians of the Galaxy, that's not going to be a good thing.



This is basically my concern, too. 

Granted, Gunn won't be writing and directing all the new DC movies, but then that begs the question of how good he is at (co-)choosing directors, writers, etc for movies that aren't in his wheelhouse? If he's good at that, great! If not, that's worrying. But one assumes WB picked him because they want more GOTG-, TSS-, and Peacemaker-type stuff. Or maybe they don't see style and tone and just see "creative, funny, makes some successful movies". So, it's hard to know what to think.


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## Umbran (Dec 21, 2022)

AnotherGuy said:


> LOL. Yeah, sounds like you're reading hard edge = murder which is not what I was going for.




You realize it would help if you tried to explain what you were going for?


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## Umbran (Dec 21, 2022)

ART! said:


> This is basically my concern, too.
> 
> Granted, Gunn won't be writing and directing all the new DC movies, but then that begs the question of how good he is at (co-)choosing directors, writers, etc for movies that aren't in his wheelhouse? If he's good at that, great! If not, that's worrying.




Exactly.  If his own body of work indicated that he understood a variety of tones and genres, we might be more confident, but lacking that...


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## AnotherGuy (Dec 21, 2022)

Umbran said:


> You realize it would help if you tried to explain what you were going for?



I like Brandon Routh but Henry Cavill (I feel) is able to exude a much higher threat/danger level than Brandon.
Similar to how one may view Daniel Craig/Timothy Dalton as compared to a Roger Moore for instance.

I would prefer a mature Superman with a rogues gallery already, sadly Gunn is going back to the character's 20-something.


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## Shades of Eternity (Dec 21, 2022)

Yeah, I want at least as good a treatment with supermans rogues gallery as they did in Superman:tas

Lex and Zod are a have been done to deat, so don't use them.

Braniac
Bizarro
Metallo
Parasite
The Ultrahumanite

Lobo (do a road trip movie with him, or better yet with a Lantern)
Luminus

The Elite

and of course The New Gods.

No idea how to use toyman, but bonus points if you can.

To heck with listing them all, so here's a link to the list.








						Superman Villains
					

Superman protects Metropolis, America and Earth from a number of threats. The mad scienstist Lex Luthor, later reimagined as a narcissistic businessman, was his biggest enemy. Before Superman donned his costume, Metropolis was already controlled by several gangs. Even though in America...




					dc.fandom.com


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## Umbran (Dec 21, 2022)

AnotherGuy said:


> I like Brandon Routh but Henry Cavill (I feel) is able to exude a much higher threat/danger level than Brandon.
> Similar to how one may view Daniel Craig/Timothy Dalton as compared to a Roger Moore for instance.




Yeah, I don't know how central "exuding threat* is central to Superman, though.  Batman, sure - his persona is all about intimidation.  But Superman is a farmboy and Boy Scout - his defining characterisntic is making people feel _safe_, not making them feel threatened.


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## Ryujin (Dec 21, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Yeah, I don't know how central "exuding threat* is central to Superman, though.  Batman, sure - his persona is all about intimidation.  But Superman is a farmboy and Boy Scout - his defining characterisntic is making people feel _safe_, not making them feel threatened.



Yeah, maybe it would be better described as "presence." He has a commanding presence that at once makes people pay attention, and feel safe. It's something that he hides in his schlumpy Clark Kent persona.


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## AnotherGuy (Dec 21, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Yeah, I don't know how central "exuding threat* is central to Superman, though.  Batman, sure - his persona is all about intimidation.  But Superman is a farmboy and Boy Scout - his defining characterisntic is making people feel _safe_, not making them feel threatened.



That is fair. 
I'm imagining the threat to be against far more serious opponents than those within the Batman Rogues Gallery. I'm also thinking of an older Superman, suffered more loss, less patient, with his farm boy and boy scout days far behind him - closer to _Kingdom Come_ than _The Adventure of Lois and Clark. _


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## Umbran (Dec 21, 2022)

AnotherGuy said:


> I'm also thinking of an older Superman, suffered more loss, less patient, with his farm boy and boy scout days far behind him - closer to _Kingdom Come_ than _The Adventure of Lois and Clark. _




The tendency to want to see optimism and values broken and left behind is part of the _problem_ with the DC cinematic work at this point, rather than what will save it.


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## Umbran (Dec 21, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Yeah, maybe it would be better described as "presence." He has a commanding presence that at once makes people pay attention, and feel safe. It's something that he hides in his schlumpy Clark Kent persona.




Yeah, I can agree to that - presence, certainly.  I'd even go with him having a certain aura of strength about him.  But Superman is not typically supposed to be _menacing_.  That's Bats' job.


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## Ryujin (Dec 21, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Yeah, I can agree to that - presence, certainly.  I'd even go with him having a certain aura of strength about him.  But Superman is not typically supposed to be _menacing_.  That's Bats' job.



There's a term that was used by Doc Smith in his "Lensmen" series, that I think fits; The Look of Eagles. It's the sort of thing that I associate with some of the early Apollo astronauts. A commanding presence and overwhelming sense of competence.


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## Grendel_Khan (Dec 21, 2022)

Umbran said:


> He's... kind of one note these days.  It is all the same sort of comedy.  So, I'm not at all sure he's a good leader for a stable of characters who should be handled with _different styles_, many of which aren't all that intrinsically funny.
> 
> Because, if he does a Justice League that is basically the Suicide Squad or Guardians of the Galaxy, that's not going to be a good thing.




In a general sense Gunn has always done basically the same thing his whole career—edgy action comedy—so saying he's
"one note these days" seems like a misread to me. The guy who did Super is the guy who did The Suicide Squad. But he's also never had this sort of position, so judging him as a producer and studio co-head based on his track record as a writer and director seems a little odd to me.

However, imo his stuff isn't as one-note as you're saying. There are shades and differences in there. Peacemaker is a pretty big departure from Guardians of the Galaxy—way more cynical about power, but also a lot more vicious in its humor and violence. And I'd argue that he knows how to do action, and more importantly action with stakes. To me, that's what's missing from nearly all superhero movies. Action without stakes is just more hazy CGI splatter.


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## Grendel_Khan (Dec 21, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Absolutely, MCU has pretty much cornered the Humourous  Action Spectacle market and even if Gunnis willing to go R-rated, making DC Humourous Action Spectacles would be absolutely the worst idea.




...did you watch Peacemaker? About as hard-R as it gets, and that series is arguably what landed him this new role.

I feel like if we're going to weigh in on this stuff, it's helpful to know the stuff we're opining about.


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## Grendel_Khan (Dec 21, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Maybe so, as I see it in light of things like the 1977 "The Amazing Spiderman" TV series and that I actually like Corman's schlock style.
> 
> In case some haven't already seen it...
> 
> ...



For sure, if Corman's FF movie had come out in the late 70's or even in the 80's I'd think it was a charming micro-budget schlockfest. But it was supposed to be released in 1994. I saw more competent student films in that era.


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## Ryujin (Dec 21, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> In a general sense Gunn has always done basically the same thing his whole career—edgy action comedy—so saying he's
> "one note these days" seems like a misread to me. The guy who did Super is the guy who did The Suicide Squad. But he's also never had this sort of position, so judging him as a producer and studio co-head based on his track record as a writer and director seems a little odd to me.
> 
> However, imo his stuff isn't as one-note as you're saying. There are shades and differences in there. Peacemaker is a pretty big departure from Guardians of the Galaxy—way more cynical about power, but also a lot more vicious in its humor and violence. And I'd argue that he knows how to do action, and more importantly action with stakes. To me, that's what's missing from nearly all superhero movies. Action without stakes is just more hazy CGI splatter.



He also knows how to do straight-up comedy, with a patina of superhero; "The Specials."


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## Grendel_Khan (Dec 21, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> He also knows how to do straight-up comedy, with a patina of superhero; "The Specials."




Great point. Plus if we're going strictly by track record, when Kevin Feige muscled the MCU into existence he hadn't written or directed any movies, and his seven most recent producer credits included such winners as Blade: Trinity, X-Men: The Last Stand, those two Fantastic Four movies, and Elektra. A cold streak of epic proportions.

You just don't know what someone's going to do as a producer, but I stand by the fact that Gunn is at least an interesting creator who doesn't care about pissing people off.


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## ART! (Dec 21, 2022)

It sounds like Dwayne Johnson is optimistic/hopeful about Black Adam making appearances in future DC movies, and Gunn would be a good person to take advantage of Johnson's talents beyond looking intense and imposing, so maybe there's some hope there.


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## Grendel_Khan (Dec 21, 2022)

ART! said:


> It sounds like Dwayne Johnson is optimistic/hopeful about Black Adam making appearances in future DC movies, and Gunn would be a good person to take advantage of Johnson's talents beyond looking intense and imposing, so maybe there's some hope there.




Yeah, I mean, whatever other flaws Black Adam had (boring needle drops, an unstoppable protagonist, weird squandering of Hawkman, etc.) it took all of Johnson's considerable charms and buried them behind a glower. His body was a great practical effect, but that's all he had to work with.


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## Umbran (Dec 21, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> In a general sense Gunn has always done basically the same thing his whole career—edgy action comedy—so saying he's "one note these days" seems like a misread to me.




I mean, if you think he's one note _in general_, I'm not going to argue with you, as it only supports my overall point.

But to clarify - I don't claim to be a Gunn-scholar, so I spoke to his recent work, which is what I'm familiar with.  Other than _Brightburn_ (for which he was producer, not director, so we don't know how much the tone of the work is him) his recent work has largely been one note.  If someone wants to offer up some older work that speaks to his breadth, we can entertain that discussion.




Grendel_Khan said:


> But he's also never had this sort of position, so judging him as a producer and studio co-head based on his track record as a writer and director seems a little odd to me.




I mean, sure, keep digging the hole deeper for him.  He's never had this sort of position.... so he has no relevant experience?  That's harsher than I wanted to get.  



Grendel_Khan said:


> However, imo his stuff isn't as one-note as you're saying. There are shades and differences in there. Peacemaker is a pretty big departure from Guardians of the Galaxy—way more cynical about power, but also a lot more vicious in its humor and violence. And I'd argue that he knows how to do action, and more importantly action with stakes. To me, that's what's missing from nearly all superhero movies. Action without stakes is just more hazy CGI splatter.




I don't get any more sense of stakes from his work than most other superhero movies out there.  Indeed, the cynical and comedic approach he takes tends, to me, to undercut stakes, rather than establish them.


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## Grendel_Khan (Dec 21, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I mean, sure, keep digging the hole deeper for him.  He's never had this sort of position.... so he has no relevant experience?  That's harsher than I wanted to get.



See my response above to Ryujin about Kevin Feige. Feige was basically a producer of some well-performing superhero movies and then a _slew_ of terrible ones before he made the MCU into a thing. You gotta do something before being handed the reigns to an entire portfolio of IP. And at least he knows how to make a movie, and not just provide notes.



Umbran said:


> I don't get any more sense of stakes from his work than most other superhero movies out there.  Indeed, the cynical and comedic approach he takes tends, to me, to undercut stakes, rather than establish them.




Welp, then we know where you stand, and there's no real point talking any further about it. If you think he can't do stakes, then nothing Gunn does will be of any value to the DC universe anyway.


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## Tonguez (Dec 21, 2022)

ART! said:


> It sounds like Dwayne Johnson is optimistic/hopeful about Black Adam making appearances in future DC movies, and Gunn would be a good person to take advantage of Johnson's talents beyond looking intense and imposing, so maybe there's some hope there.



Yeah Dwaynes 50 now, while Black Adam may come back in future, Dwayne might not be the one to portray him in the future. Bautista at 54 has indicated that he’s ready to retire from MCU and I dont see Gunn making another Black Adam vehicle in the next 5 years (I could be wrong)



Grendel_Khan said:


> ...did you watch Peacemaker? About as hard-R as it gets, and that series is arguably what landed him this new role.
> 
> I feel like if we're going to weigh in on this stuff, it's helpful to know the stuff we're opining about.



um yes? My point is just because you include swear words and excessive blood splatter in what is otherwise action comedy wont be enough to differentiate the DC movies from MCU movies - it just makes it another movie with corny jokes and hazy cgi splatter.

but yeah maybe Gunn and Sanfran will work as Producers and will deliver a plan that does the DC characters Justice


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## Kaodi (Dec 21, 2022)

I expect that a DCEgUnniverse might have a strong emphasis on music and score. I am less sure about The Suicide Squad in this regard but GotG and Peacemaker were both very strong in this regard.

It could be interesting too if Gunn's style set the tone for the universe and villains in a way that the heroes are explicitly supposed to fight against. Maybe it could work if approached the project as if he we the bad guy so to speak.

Also: Krypton may not have been the greatest series but I did like Adam Strange in that so maybe we could see him or a similar Booster Gold in the DCEU.


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## Shades of Eternity (Dec 21, 2022)

Just don't mess with Zachari Levi as the Big Red Cheese.

He is awesome and I want him to start doing crossovers with other dc superheroes.


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## Ryujin (Dec 21, 2022)

Kaodi said:


> I expect that a DCEgUnniverse might have a strong emphasis on music and score. I am less sure about The Suicide Squad in this regard but GotG and Peacemaker were both very strong in this regard.
> 
> It could be interesting too if Gunn's style set the tone for the universe and villains in a way that the heroes are explicitly supposed to fight against. Maybe it could work if approached the project as if he we the bad guy so to speak.



Picturing '90s action movies in which the villain provides the charisma and comedy, to the hero's straight man. As in "Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves" how I found Costner's Robin to be ultimately forgettable, but I couldn't take my eyes off Rickman's performance. It's one of the things that I loved about Ledger's Joker, as another example.


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## Tonguez (Dec 21, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Picturing '90s action movies in which the villain provides the charisma and comedy, to the hero's straight man. As in "Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves" how I found Costner's Robin to be ultimately forgettable, but I couldn't take my eyes off Rickman's performance. It's one of the things that I loved about Ledger's Joker, as another example.



Oh a villain universe with heroes as antagonist could be an interesting approach to it…hmmm


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## Umbran (Dec 21, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> If you think he can't do stakes




Well, that isn't what I said.  I said that he does stakes about as well others in the genre.  Not that he cannot do stakes, but that he doesn't stand out at them, either.



Grendel_Khan said:


> ... then nothing Gunn does will be of any value to the DC universe anyway.




I don't think that actually follows, because his new role isn't about making folks feel the stakes in individual films.

His new purview is about overall theme and strategy choices, and I don't think his past work demonstrates appropriate breadth in that regard.  Doesn't mean he can't do it, but isn't a signifier that he can, either.


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## Umbran (Dec 21, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Oh a villain universe with heroes as antagonist could be an interesting approach to it…hmmm




Well, in that film, Rickman wasn't the protagonist - he was just stunningly good at chewing the scenery in an entertaining fashion.

Heroes as antagonists would be up his cynical alley, I guess.  But I don't know if a _universe_ of that will be palatable for a decade or more.


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## Ryujin (Dec 21, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Well, in that film, Rickman wasn't the protagonist - he was just stunningly good at chewing the scenery in an entertaining fashion.
> 
> Heroes as antagonists would be up his cynical alley, I guess.  But I don't know if a _universe_ of that will be palatable for a decade or more.



I agree. Maybe one or two films in that vein would work, but not a whole "cinematic universe." It was more an idle thought about how Gunn's usual comedy bent would be made to work in an otherwise serious film.

I would say that "Brightburn" is at least some small evidence that Gunn could oversee a project that's quite dark and serious in character. I can't think of any other evidence to support that inference, however.


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## Umbran (Dec 21, 2022)

Shades of Eternity said:


> Just don't mess with Zachari Levi as the Big Red Cheese.
> 
> He is awesome and I want him to start doing crossovers with other dc superheroes.




Most recent word from Levi is that he's not being recast.  On twitter his words were, "Oooh, I really wouldn’t go believing everything you see on the internet. I’m Gucci, Ash. We all Gucci."


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## wicked cool (Dec 21, 2022)

I’m 1/2 way through black Adam and I see why they dropped the rock. The movie is not very good and based on pure speculation on my part they must be worried he would be a diva 
The movie is bad in some of the special effects. There’s a scene right of Xavier’s school with the jet and they would have been better off just using that footage or footage from any movie. It looks worse than some video games
The plot is bad and the good guys reaction to basically the cursed item so far is also bad. 
There’s 1 scene where they take something from a 60s movie and then use it during the movie. It’s so poor. That 60’s movie is 1000 times better and that budget was 1 million instead of this heaping garbage
So far the movie is a d . FYI I like the rock and watched him during wrestling days etc. I like the character and the plot idea it’s just the effort and execution is poor


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## deganawida (Dec 21, 2022)

Umbran said:


> He's... kind of one note these days.  It is all the same sort of comedy.  So, I'm not at all sure he's a good leader for a stable of characters who should be handled with _different styles_, many of which aren't all that intrinsically funny.
> 
> Because, if he does a Justice League that is basically the Suicide Squad or Guardians of the Galaxy, that's not going to be a good thing.



Well....respectfully disagree, IF he gave us JLI.  I would LOVE that.


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## Kaodi (Dec 22, 2022)

I was not exactly thinking of making the heroes the literal antagonists of the movies. But I do not think that is necessarily a cynical premise at all. Like, look at Black Panther. "Cheering for the bad guy," is a thing that sometimes happens. Killmonger is definitely the antagonist. You could definitely make a movie from the point of view of the bad guys where you are cheering for the good guys to win. I was not suggesting a whole universe built like that.


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## Grendel_Khan (Dec 22, 2022)

deganawida said:


> Well....respectfully disagree, IF he gave us JLI.  I would LOVE that.



The only thing I liked about the Doomsday crossover (leading up to Superman's "death") was the JLI issue, which started off as goofy as usual and then got _real_ dark once it was clear how much destruction that dumb monster was dishing out. Actually gave that bad storyline a little heft, at least for a moment.


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## trappedslider (Dec 30, 2022)

so this was a thing that almost happened The Justice League of America Movie Is a Fascinating Failure


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