# Practical Dread Necromancer build



## Erenthia

Hi all, I'm new here but since the release of 4th edition, I've been visiting the wizards of the coast boards less and less.  

That said I was hoping to get some advice on building a dread necromancer.  Now, I should say that it should be assumed that I don't have to make the most optimized character to hold my own in the party.  Still, since the Dread Necromancer is already (slightly) weaker than other classes, I don't want to loose too much.  

I should also say that this is a character oriented build.  (Though, obviously I'm trying to represent the character with the most powerful build I can, but I'm still not going to compromise the idea for something unrelated but more powerful).

Ok then, now to business.  This character, now going by the name of Drakus, was once a farmer in a little hamlet in the middle of nowhere.  For various reasons (and it varies depending on what setting he's in and who the DM is) an inquisition came to his hamlet.  His wife and three daughters  (ages 16, 12, and 2) were burned at the stake before his very eyes.  Deciding that the gods were fundamentally evil, he decides to take up the path of necromancy.  


I'm considering a number of possible builds for him. The first involves a work-around to get Lord of the Uttercold, but as you'll see has some decided disadvantages.  It would require

Arcane Disciple (Fire Domain)
Energy Substitution (Cold)
Lord of the Uttercold.

I'm justifying the Arcane Disciple feat by saying that there are other "divine" beings out there who hate the gods (such as demons and devils).  This would let me use a small number of uttercold spells to great advantage but not particularly often.

I've also considered that since the group I'm making this for doesn't have a healer I might want to take:

Arcane Disciple (Healing)
Spontaneous Healer

which (I believe) would let me use all my slots of healing if I chose.  It's not particularly in keeping with my character concept, but it's not too far from it either.  Actually he would enjoy being able to duplicate one of the most important function of divine magic.  

As for prestige classes, if I can't get the DM to sign off on the Dread Necromancers 8th level ability to control more undead to be based of caster level, then I may not bother with one.  One the other hand if I can I have a few possibilities in mind.

1) Dread Necromancer/Warlock/Eldritch Theurge
2) Dread Necromancer/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge (not likely, I know)
3) Dread Necromancer/Wizard/Ultimate Magus
4) Dread Necromancer/Warmage/Ultimate Magus
5) Dread Necromancer/Fighter/Eldritch Knight 

number 2 is likely to be ruled against (wasn't there errata to that effect?) but it's included to give a better idea of the character.  number 5 needn't have a level of fighter and should probably have something more interesting.  Number 1 is what I'm currently leaning towards, but since I'll never get Dark invocations (and utterdark blast is only negative energy/undead healing the warlock gets) I may go another direction.

I'm also considering going (Evolved?) Necropolitan, especially if the above house rule is used to make getting out at level 8 as painless as possible.

Alright then, that's it.  I appreciate any and all input and hope to become a useful member of this forum.  Thanks in advance for any and all ideas, tip, and constructive criticism.

Erenthia


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## Runestar

Try this thread.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=759515&highlight=dread+necromancer


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## rgard

Erenthia said:


> 2) Dread Necromancer/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge (not likely, I know)
> 
> 
> number 2 is likely to be ruled against (wasn't there errata to that effect?)




I hadn't heard about this being errated.  Anybody else know about it?

Thanks,
Rich


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## Runestar

rgard said:


> I hadn't heard about this being errated.  Anybody else know about it?
> 
> Thanks,
> Rich




What's there to errata? Only problem is qualifying for it, since a dread necro has poor fort saves, so you can't take ur-priest until 9th lv. Thus, the soonest you can take mystic theurge is at lv12, as a dread necro9/ur-priest2.

It is not a total loss though, since the sweet spot for dread necro is at 8th lv.


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## rgard

Runestar said:


> What's there to errata? Only problem is qualifying for it, since a dread necro has poor fort saves, so you can't take ur-priest until 9th lv. Thus, the soonest you can take mystic theurge is at lv12, as a dread necro9/ur-priest2.
> 
> It is not a total loss though, since the sweet spot for dread necro is at 8th lv.




It affects other builds.  That's why I was curious.  I searched the WotC errata and didn't find anything.


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## Jack Simth

Erenthia said:


> Hi all, I'm new here but since the release of 4th edition, I've been visiting the wizards of the coast boards less and less.
> 
> That said I was hoping to get some advice on building a dread necromancer.  Now, I should say that it should be assumed that I don't have to make the most optimized character to hold my own in the party.  Still, since the Dread Necromancer is already (slightly) weaker than other classes, I don't want to loose too much.



It's weaker than other full casters, at any rate.  It is, however, still a full caster - with some tricks.


Erenthia said:


> I should also say that this is a character oriented build.  (Though, obviously I'm trying to represent the character with the most powerful build I can, but I'm still not going to compromise the idea for something unrelated but more powerful).
> 
> Ok then, now to business.  This character, now going by the name of Drakus, was once a farmer in a little hamlet in the middle of nowhere.  For various reasons (and it varies depending on what setting he's in and who the DM is) an inquisition came to his hamlet.  His wife and three daughters  (ages 16, 12, and 2) were burned at the stake before his very eyes.  Deciding that the gods were fundamentally evil, he decides to take up the path of necromancy.
> 
> 
> I'm considering a number of possible builds for him. The first involves a work-around to get Lord of the Uttercold, but as you'll see has some decided disadvantages.  It would require
> 
> Arcane Disciple (Fire Domain)
> Energy Substitution (Cold)
> Lord of the Uttercold.
> 
> I'm justifying the Arcane Disciple feat by saying that there are other "divine" beings out there who hate the gods (such as demons and devils).  This would let me use a small number of uttercold spells to great advantage but not particularly often.
> 
> I've also considered that since the group I'm making this for doesn't have a healer I might want to take:
> 
> Arcane Disciple (Healing)
> Spontaneous Healer
> 
> which (I believe) would let me use all my slots of healing if I chose.  It's not particularly in keeping with my character concept, but it's not too far from it either.  Actually he would enjoy being able to duplicate one of the most important function of divine magic.



Don't even need Spontaneous Healer, really.  

Simpler route, though - take Tomb-tainted soul, and require everyone else take it, too.  Suddenly your Charnel Touch is a free Cure Light Wounds usable at will, and you can get the stronger healing effects by way of the Inflict and Harm line that's already on your spell list.


Erenthia said:


> As for prestige classes, if I can't get the DM to sign off on the Dread Necromancers 8th level ability to control more undead to be based of caster level, then I may not bother with one.  One the other hand if I can I have a few possibilities in mind.
> 
> 1) Dread Necromancer/Warlock/Eldritch Theurge
> 2) Dread Necromancer/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge (not likely, I know)
> 3) Dread Necromancer/Wizard/Ultimate Magus
> 4) Dread Necromancer/Warmage/Ultimate Magus
> 5) Dread Necromancer/Fighter/Eldritch Knight
> 
> number 2 is likely to be ruled against (wasn't there errata to that effect?) but it's included to give a better idea of the character.  number 5 needn't have a level of fighter and should probably have something more interesting.  Number 1 is what I'm currently leaning towards, but since I'll never get Dark invocations (and utterdark blast is only negative energy/undead healing the warlock gets) I may go another direction.



Generally, a Theurge is a bad idea - you're reducing your primary role to get a second role, also at lower effectiveness.  Now, if you're playing in a reduced party, and need the second role to balance that, it's not too bad (but there's usually better ways to do it).  An Ur-Theurge isn't generally weak, though, the rest of the options aren't particularly mechanically good.  To make it work with the Ur-Theurge, you'll need two things:
1) A good Fort save
2) Knoweledge(The Planes) as a class skill for at least one level
3) Probably a decent Intelligence score.

There's a couple of ways to go about that; the Savage Bard (Unearthed Arcana variant Bard) is probably my favorite for making it work.


Erenthia said:


> I'm also considering going (Evolved?) Necropolitan, especially if the above house rule is used to make getting out at level 8 as painless as possible.



You want your Con score.  Really, you do.


Erenthia said:


> Alright then, that's it.  I appreciate any and all input and hope to become a useful member of this forum.  Thanks in advance for any and all ideas, tip, and constructive criticism.
> 
> Erenthia


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## Runestar

If you plan on going pure dread necro, you can consider dumping your con score, then enter necropolitan ASAP. Then prior to lv20 (since the lich template clearly states that it may not be applied to humanoids), kill yourself and arranged to be raised via true resurrection. Just nice to benefit from the lich template at lv20. This ensures that you don't waste points pumping your con (which while vital at low lvs, is useless at lv20 when you turn undead).


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## Erenthia

Thanks everyone,

My guess is that it will be a reduced party, and I don't know what the chances are of getting everyone else to burn a feat (especially since the DM might rule against free out of combat healing for everyone).  But I'm curious what other ways there are to add a second role (and I hope you're not going to say Leadership, I don't think this DM will allow that feat anymore - but I can ask).

Also if I start off as a necropolitan I pretty much already have everything important from being a lich (and I seriously doubt we'll get to level 20 in this game anyways) so I figured I'd open my Christmas presents early so-to-speak.

That said, I can't see much of a reason to stay with Dread Necromancer past 8th level.  If the options I listed aren't any good, what's something else I could shoot for?  I don't much care for the pale master though perhaps DreadNecro/Ur-Priest/True Necromancer could work, but I haven't looked into it so I don't know.


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## rgard

Erenthia said:


> Thanks everyone,...perhaps DreadNecro/Ur-Priest/True Necromancer could work, but I haven't looked into it so I don't know.




I haven't looked at it in too much depth, but it sounds like a really cool combination of classes.  I think there may be a domain requirement for True Necromancer.  I don't have the book handy.

Thanks,
Rich


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## Jack Simth

Part of your build will depend on where you start - there's a lot of builds that are weak to begin with but are much stronger later on (e.g., a Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge(Savage Bard/Ur-Priest)-3/Sublime Chord-1/Mystic Theurge(Sublime Chord/Ur-Priest)-X gets 9th level Divine spells at 15th or 16th (depending on Wisdom bonus), and 9th level Arcane spells at 19th.  If you're starting at 12th or higher, the Sublime Ur-Theurge has no particular drawbacks (other than a little case of MAD).  Starting at 15th or 16th, it's got a slight leg up on most Full Casters (higher level spell access), and at 17th+ it's about even with most Full Casters.  Without going Theurge, though, it's weaker than most Full Casters at 17th+, due to the reduced number of spell slots.

Dread Necromancer/Ur-Priest is tricky to arrange - it's really difficult to make the Ur-Priest requirements that way.  The Ur-Priest requires you have a fair list of skills (some of which are social), so it goes well with a Bard or Rogue (and not so well with the antisocial Dread Necromancer) - but it also requires you have +3 Base Fort and Will saves, which means you'll need a level or two of Fighter, Barbarian, Monk, or similiar in there if you want to get in prior to 9th level.


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## Erenthia

I've asked the DM, and he doesn't much care about the requirements that aren't important to the actual roleplaying.  In his words, "what's a high fort save have to do with stealing the power of the gods?".

I *believe* that starting level will be about 6th, but I'm not sure about that.  (I asked him and he told me, but I forgot).  

Also he's a little iffy about an Ur Priest/Mystic Theurge combo, but he said he'd think about it.  I will look into the DN/UP/TN combo, but as TN is a weird 14 level class that I probably won't qualify for until at least 10th-12th level, then it might turn out to be underpowered, but we'll see.


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## Jack Simth

True Necromancer is designed for a Wizard-3/Cleric-3.  On top of that, it loses two caster levels on each side - so at 20th, the designed entry casts as a Wizard-15/Cleric-15 - no 9th level spells (other than the Spell-likes gained as part of the class itself).  Basically, unless you're using a fast-advancement PrC as the base for the +Spellcasting, you never get 9th level spells with it.  

Now, Dread Necromancer fits your flavor all by itself (Raising undead, hating the dieties is just flavor) - as does the Ur-Priest (cleric spell list includes Animate Dead as a 3rd level spell, so you'll be able to do that at character level 8 with earliest entry Ur-Priest, and hating the dieties is somewhat inherent to the Ur-Priest class write-up).  A Theurge is really only needed to balance with the other full casters if you expect the game to go above about 17th or 18th (as the Ur-Priest doesn't get many 9th level spells per day, even at full progression).  

Now, if you can convince your DM that you can play a cause-cleric with the cause being "hating gods" you could go pure Cleric without compromising anything - domains maybe Death and Destruction, or some such.


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## Erenthia

I don't particularly expect this to go past level 16 or 17.  And yeah the True Necromancer doesn't much add anything so I'm leaning towards DN/UP/MT unless I can think of a desirable gish build.  Maybe buff my DR with some feats out of savage species or something, then get the evolved template.  

Not sure if a Dread-Necro/Paladin of Tyrrany?/Eldritch Knight would be worth it, but it actually sounds fairly fun.  Arcane Disciple(War) + wand of divine power could be all kinds of awesome...but I don't know if it would work out in terms of number crunch.


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## rgard

Erenthia said:


> I've asked the DM, and he doesn't much care about the requirements that aren't important to the actual roleplaying.  In his words, "what's a high fort save have to do with stealing the power of the gods?".
> 
> I *believe* that starting level will be about 6th, but I'm not sure about that.  (I asked him and he told me, but I forgot).
> 
> Also he's a little iffy about an Ur Priest/Mystic Theurge combo, but he said he'd think about it.  I will look into the DN/UP/TN combo, but as TN is a weird 14 level class that I probably won't qualify for until at least 10th-12th level, then it might turn out to be underpowered, but we'll see.




When I first read Ur-Priest in the BoVD I at first thought it was a bit powerful to use with Mystic Theurge.  Problem is that once you hit 10th level in Ur-Priest, you are done.  You'll have the one 9th level spell and that is it.  For long term development of the character, Cleric is a better choice for the divine side of Mystic Theurge.  Also, you won't be taking more than 8 levels of MT as you'll run out Ur-Priest levels.

Show your DM that you'll be capped with one 9th level spell while the clerics will go on to more.  That said, you did say you think things will end around 16th or 17th level so the point may be moot.

Thanks,
Rich


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## Runestar

The problem with ur-priest is not so much of its retarded spell slot progression, but more of its accelerated rate of spell gain. You can access 9th lv spells at lv14 (not mystic theurge route), which may or may not be problematic. Granted, you only get one (though you could burn your lower lv slots to acquire more). 

Then there is the whole issue regarding its steal SLA ability (use planar binding to snag genies for 3 free wishes each day). It was clearly designed to be used as an NPC, and less so as a PC.


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## MadMaxim

Jack Simth said:


> Don't even need Spontaneous Healer, really.
> 
> Simpler route, though - take Tomb-tainted soul, and require everyone else take it, too.  Suddenly your Charnel Touch is a free Cure Light Wounds usable at will, and you can get the stronger healing effects by way of the Inflict and Harm line that's already on your spell list.



I would have suggested the very same thing. Tomb-Tainted Soul is an essential addition to a Dread Necromancer. The feat becomes obsolete at 20th level when you turn into a lich, but there's a long way to 20th level and as you mentioned, Erenthia, many campaigns don't make it that far. Furthermore, most monsters don't use cure spells offensively, so you're more competent against evil Clerics who spontaneously convert their spells into _inflict_ spells. Other than that, I'd really just recommend that you stay with the Dread Necromancer class, because many of its abilities are tied to your class level but multiclassing into Warlock and going for Eldritch Theurge could also prove beneficial.


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## Jack Simth

rgard said:


> When I first read Ur-Priest in the BoVD I at first thought it was a bit powerful to use with Mystic Theurge.  Problem is that once you hit 10th level in Ur-Priest, you are done.  You'll have the one 9th level spell and that is it.  For long term development of the character, Cleric is a better choice for the divine side of Mystic Theurge.  Also, you won't be taking more than 8 levels of MT as you'll run out Ur-Priest levels.
> 
> Show your DM that you'll be capped with one 9th level spell while the clerics will go on to more.  That said, you did say you think things will end around 16th or 17th level so the point may be moot.
> 
> Thanks,
> Rich





Runestar said:


> The problem with ur-priest is not so much of its retarded spell slot progression, but more of its accelerated rate of spell gain. You can access 9th lv spells at lv14 (not mystic theurge route), which may or may not be problematic. Granted, you only get one (though you could burn your lower lv slots to acquire more).
> 
> Then there is the whole issue regarding its steal SLA ability (use planar binding to snag genies for 3 free wishes each day). It was clearly designed to be used as an NPC, and less so as a PC.




Both of these are true.

Ur-Priest is broken-strong in that it gets early spell access (potential for 9th level spells at 14th, if you take the earliest-entry route and pump Wisdom, and can steal brokenly-strong SLA's from critters.

Ur-Priest is fairly weak in that it gets only a small number of spell slots, so that it's weaker in the long run.

That is to say, the Whatever-5/Ur-Priest-10 is stronger, mechanically, than the Cleric-15, but the Cleric-20 is generally stronger than the Whatever-10/Ur-Priest 10 (if you discount stealing the three wishes SLA from Efreeti). 

Mind you, the Ur-Theurge gets really, really strong (a Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-3(Savage Bard/Ur-Priest)/Sublime Chord-1/Mystic Theurge(Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord)-5/Full advancement Arcanist PrC-4 (Sublime Chord) doesn't have the Ur-Priest's spell-slot issue (two sets of thin spell slots total to about the same as the Cleric gets), while maintaining the Ur-Priest's early spell access (9th level spells at 15th or 16th, depending on Wisdom) ... but at 20th, it's around the same spellcasting strength as the Sorcerer or Cleric.


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## rgard

Jack Simth said:


> Both of these are true.
> 
> Mind you, the Ur-Theurge gets really, really strong (a Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-3(Savage Bard/Ur-Priest)/Sublime Chord-1/Mystic Theurge(Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord)-5/Full advancement Arcanist PrC-4 (Sublime Chord) doesn't have the Ur-Priest's spell-slot issue (two sets of thin spell slots total to about the same as the Cleric gets), while maintaining the Ur-Priest's early spell access (9th level spells at 15th or 16th, depending on Wisdom) ... but at 20th, it's around the same spellcasting strength as the Sorcerer or Cleric.




My head is spinning!!!  Thanks for posting this.  

My build for the one Ur-Priest MT I played was Paladin of Freedom (Fallen)-1/ Wizard-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8/Spellsword-1/Ruathar-3.  The goal being having a 9th level Divine spell and 9th level Arcane spell by 20th level.  I was the way I figured out how to get 9 and 9 by 20th, but there are other builds I know from reading these boards.

Thanks,
Rich


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## Jack Simth

rgard said:


> My head is spinning!!!  Thanks for posting this.
> 
> My build for the one Ur-Priest MT I played was Paladin of Freedom (Fallen)-1/ Wizard-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8/Spellsword-1/Ruathar-3.  The goal being having a 9th level Divine spell and 9th level Arcane spell by 20th level.  I was the way I figured out how to get 9 and 9 by 20th, but there are other builds I know from reading these boards.
> 
> Thanks,
> Rich



A more common route using a Wizard base would be Wiz-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8/Full Arcane Advancement PrC of Choice-4.  It's hard to pull off, though, as the Ur-Priest has some social skill requirements (which, you know, you can meet on the one level of Mindbender with the high Int wizards take).  End with Wiz-18, Ur-Priest-10 casting; 9th level Divine spells at 15th or 16th (depending on Wisdom), 9th level Arcane spells at 19th.  The Trick is that Mindbender is a 1/2 advancement PrC... that has advancement on the _odd_ levels, and a good Fort save.  It's also got a lot of social skills on it's class skill list.  This particular build, at 20th, is basically a Wizard minus two 9th, one 8th, and one 7th level Arcane spell slots, but gaining a bunch of Divine spell slots at similar spell levels and lower a little early.


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## Runestar

> A more common route using a Wizard base would be Wiz-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8/Full Arcane Advancement PrC of Choice-4.




Beguiler might be a better choice than wizard, since it has access to a much better class skill list and enough skill points to let you pump those skills. Throw in able learner and you can even pass off as a decent trap-monkey, since you should have a decent int score as well. A little MAD, but should still be doable.


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