# Warlock/Binder



## bachman (Sep 3, 2009)

I was considering a multiclass Warlock/Binder for my new character and I was wondering if anyone here had experience with that class combo. Thanks in advance for the advice.


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## Theroc (Sep 3, 2009)

No direct experience, but I've toyed with both classes.

Any particular type of character you're aiming towards?  What sorts of hints do you need?


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## bachman (Sep 3, 2009)

I don't have a build in mind yet. Just soliciting general advice on the combo or the individual classes.


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## Theroc (Sep 3, 2009)

Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible

According to the above link, discussing dips
"*Warlock*: Doesn't add much that you don't already have, really, but 4th level taking 10 on a UMD is really nice."

Personally, the CHA synergy can work nicely, particularly if you use save-debuffing effects on your Eldritch Blasts.

I haven't played a real Warlock/Binder multiclass in practice however.

Note: Link works, despite it stating the links are incompatible.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 3, 2009)

First, welcome to the boards!

Second, what kind of campaign are you going to be in?

I ask because if you're running with a bunch of powergamers, you're not going to make friends with that combo.  Neither class is exactly a powerhouse.

However, if your group leans heavy towards roleplayers and storytellers, its a combo that has a lot of inherent flavor.


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## Dragonwriter (Sep 3, 2009)

Yes, welcome to EnWorld. Now, on to the question... (my answers are based more on the numbers and abilities aspect. If your game is more into interaction, it doesn't matter as much.)

Either way, I suggest picking one of the classes to be your focus, or main class (since Binder 10/Warlock 10 is not a good combo, whether you do more combat or RP).

If you want Binder to be your main class (most levels), I would only suggest Warlock 4 (though, if you really want, 6 can give you some nice flight ability). Warlock 4 would give you the UMD boost, 2d6 ranged touch, and some least invocations. _Spider Climb_ is usually useful, as is _Devil's Sight_ (nothing like seeing perfectly in the dark, when you do dungeon crawls). With Binder, you may also want to take the Prestige Class "Knight of the Sacred Seal", if one of the vestiges becomes your favorite. It's a very nice class, and you don't lose out on much from Binder itself.

If you want Warlock to be your main class, Binder 3 (particularly with Improved Binding feat), 4 or 5 are good stopping points, in my opinion. If you take Improved Binding, it will let you bind 3rd level vestiges early and you can get some nice little boosts with those (Paimon, for example, will give you that nice +4 Dex). With this style, consider carefully how you want your character to fight... Do you want a hit-and-run style character (Fell Flight + Otiax)? Or maybe a ranged combatant (Leraje + Eldritch Chain/Spear + Spider Climb/Fell Flight)? I don't suggest front-liner, since your Attack Bonus won't be great, and you have lower HP. As for Prestige Classes, there aren't any good ones in Complete Arcane for a Warlock, but if you have Fiendish Codex 2, you can make use of the Hellfire Warlock, and with Binder, use Naberius. It is a very nice combo, allowing you some good boosts, at a cost that gets fixed next round.

If your campaign focuses more on roleplay, you would naturally have a different selection of abilities. The _Beguiling Influence_ invocation combined with the Naberius vestige and some ranks in Diplomacy makes you a wonderful face-man for the group. It really depends on how your group/campaign plays, and what you want to play...


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## bachman (Sep 4, 2009)

Wow. Thanks for all the replies and advice. Didn't think to mention that we are not power-gamers, but I see your point there. I believe I'm going with Warlock as the main class and adding Binder levels for flavor.  That will add some interesting abilities into the mix.


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## irdeggman (Sep 4, 2009)

DR and energy resistances from different sources do not unless they specifically state otherwise.  For example the DR granted by the Fey Skin feat specifically stacks with DR from class, type, subtype or race. 

While both classes other great RP potential it appears to me that a binder is more melee oriented and that may cause a problem since a warlock is more ranged oriented.

Going over the list of potential vestiges it apppears that they are more melee oriented. But I might have missed something here.

Warlocks are subject to ASF when wearing greater than light armor (without the specific feats that allow using heavier armors without ASF). This si something else to watch out for.


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## Dandu (Sep 4, 2009)

*Warlock Information Compilation:

*


> *Hellfire Warlock (Fiendish Codex II) by Thinblade:* The ultimate in warlock blasting. A nifty little 3 level PrC that gives +6d6 blast and 3/3 invocations, and all it wants is a mediocre blast essence in return. If you’re ok with the flavor, there’s very little reason not to take this class. See also: Legacy Champion PrC, Strategies Section.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Theroc (Sep 4, 2009)

Along Irdeggman's line, make sure to check with your DM about Hideous Blow.

If your DM rules it does not provoke AoO's, then it could be rather nice to stack onto a pounce-based build.

But yes, Binder has more melee/defense options than ranged options.

Hellfire Warlock is an EVIL class, so if your party is not EVIL, then it likely would need reflavoring.

If there's more specific assistance you'd like, Bachman, just let us know what type of character concept you have in mind(Warlock as main class helps, but there are still numerous ways and flavor concepts for Warlocks, so more info might be helpful)


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## Starbuck_II (Sep 4, 2009)

I currently play a Warlock/Binder/Swordsage in PbP on OotS Website.
I use Binding as defense (fire aura from Aym), Warlock as nifty benefits (flight, see invisible, summon swarm, etc).

I never use EB because I  have average (10 or 12) dex. I'm more a melee dude.

I don't have Dragon Magic that adds that Eldritch Glaive invocation or I'd have made that a choice.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 5, 2009)

Ok...so you're going to be a Warlock...primarily, at least.

What is this PC supposed to be like?  What kind of personality are you trying to model?

I ask because Binder might not even be the class you want to MC with.  The stats that work best for the Warlock also synergize nicely with the Sorcerer, Battle Sorcerer, WarMage and, to a certain extent, the Marshal.  Any of which could add an interesting wrinkle...if it fits the PC's backstory.


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## Dandu (Sep 6, 2009)

Theroc said:


> Hellfire Warlock is an EVIL class, so if your party is not EVIL, then it likely would need reflavoring.




Incorrect!



> Entry Requirements
> 
> Skills: Intimidate 6 ranks, Knowledge (the planes) 12 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks.
> 
> ...




Nothing evil in the requirements.



> Most hellfire warlocks whom the PCs encounter have likely already succumbed to the temptations of evil. Usually minions in the service of an infernal cult, they lead groups of thugs or devils against good organizations or to hunt down and destroy adventurers. Only in the rarest circumstances does a hellfire warlock resist these temptations and use her power to advance the cause of good.




While mostly evil, as with most warlocks, there can be good Hellfire Warlocks.

And finally, a quote from the top of the page:


> "It is not the weapon that is evil, but the wielder."
> -- Galena Todrick, hellfire warlock




In conclusion, though evil people wield hellfire, wielding hellfire isn't evil.


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## Theroc (Sep 6, 2009)

Dandu said:


> Incorrect!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hm... seems I heard otherwise somewhere, and got confused.  You're right.  It's not inherently evil, just primarily so.


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## irdeggman (Sep 7, 2009)

Theroc said:


> Along Irdeggman's line, make sure to check with your DM about Hideous Blow.
> 
> If your DM rules it does not provoke AoO's, then it could be rather nice to stack onto a pounce-based build.




Casting the invocation does provoke an AoO, as does anytime you use a spell-like ability.  Making the attack should not, but I have heard some people say it does (I can't fathom their logic though).


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## Theroc (Sep 8, 2009)

irdeggman said:


> Casting the invocation does provoke an AoO, as does anytime you use a spell-like ability.  Making the attack should not, but I have heard some people say it does (I can't fathom their logic though).




That may be RAW, but not all DM's agree with the RAW ruling, seeing the intent of the invocation that of removing the chance of an AoO on the use of the Eldritch Blast in close proximity.

So, consulting one's DM is something that is a good idea if a Warlock intends on entering melee combat.

The games I am playing a Warlock in(thus far) have ruled that Hideous Blow at no point incurs an AoO.  This will obviously vary by DM.


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## Dandu (Sep 8, 2009)

Fortunately, Eldritch Glaive exists, which is better than Hideous Blow in many ways.


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## irdeggman (Sep 8, 2009)

Theroc said:


> That may be RAW, but not all DM's agree with the RAW ruling, seeing the intent of the invocation that of removing the chance of an AoO on the use of the Eldritch Blast in close proximity.
> 
> So, consulting one's DM is something that is a good idea if a Warlock intends on entering melee combat.
> 
> The games I am playing a Warlock in(thus far) have ruled that Hideous Blow at no point incurs an AoO.  This will obviously vary by DM.




Well each DM is different but no where in the description of the invocation does it imply that the point is to remove the AoO. It states that it adds the invocation's damage to that of the weapon used. To me that is clearly the intent.

It functions similarly to how shocking grasp works - casting the spell provokes an AoO making the actual attack does not.

And I agree with the above thaat Eldritch Glaive is far superior - albeit a "reach" weapon, it does allow the warlock to be "armed" until his next turn and can thus make AoO as well as a full-attack.

From the FAQ



> *Does hideous blow provoke an attack of opportunity?*
> 
> Yes. As a spell-like ability, using hideous blow provokes
> attacks of opportunity just as any other spell-like ability would.
> ...




and



> *Does a warlock’s hideous blow invocation (CAr, page
> 134) require one standard action to use the hideous blow
> and another round to strike with a melee weapon, or can
> the hideous blow and the melee weapon attack be done as a
> ...


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## Theroc (Sep 8, 2009)

irdeggman said:


> Well each DM is different but no where in the description of the invocation does it imply that the point is to remove the AoO. It states that it adds the invocation's damage to that of the weapon used. To me that is clearly the intent.
> 
> It functions similarly to how shocking grasp works - casting the spell provokes an AoO making the actual attack does not.
> 
> ...





Irdeggman, I don't really want to open the(Hideous Blow AoO?) can of worms, but if I recall, somewhere the original author of the class stated that Hideous Blow provoking an AoO was stupid and not his intention.

I may, however, have a confused memory after researching a 40 some page thread about Warlocks on WotC's boards like 4 months ago.

Suffice it to say that some DM's do not agree with Hideous Blow provoking an AoO, which was why I recommended Bachman check with his DM.

Also, I hadn't meant to say that the intent was indeed what I said, I meant to say that the DM's saw that as the intent(whether or not it is could be debated, I suppose).  I was attempting to avoid that discussion here, as it's only partially relevant to Bachman's question.


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## irdeggman (Sep 8, 2009)

Theroc said:


> Irdeggman, I don't really want to open the(Hideous Blow AoO?) can of worms, but if I recall, somewhere the original author of the class stated that Hideous Blow provoking an AoO was stupid and not his intention.
> 
> I may, however, have a confused memory after researching a 40 some page thread about Warlocks on WotC's boards like 4 months ago.
> 
> ...




Well (avoiding the debate) - Hideous Blow is still a very weak invocation (Eldritch Glaive is much superior). HB still only allows a single attack (since it uses a standard action to activate) and the warlock must be in melee, usually not a good idea for the class. And it vanishes after the attack so the warlock can't use it for any AoO (where Eldritch Glaive specifically states it can be).

So even if the DM allows it not to generate an AoO it is still a very weak invocation.


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## Theroc (Sep 8, 2009)

irdeggman said:


> Well (avoiding the debate) - Hideous Blow is still a very weak invocation (Eldritch Glaive is much superior). HB still only allows a single attack (since it uses a standard action to activate) and the warlock must be in melee, usually not a good idea for the class. And it vanishes after the attack so the warlock can't use it for any AoO (where Eldritch Glaive specifically states it can be).
> 
> So even if the DM allows it not to generate an AoO it is still a very weak invocation.





I agree for the most part, though, for those that don't own Dragon Magic... it is the only melee alternative, besides invoking defensively a standard blast.


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## Dandu (Sep 9, 2009)

You'd likely be able to invoke the standard blast once you get a few ranks in Concentration and good Con mod, and possibly a Tunic of Steady Spellcasting (+4 to concentration checks, 2500 gp)


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