# Opinions on Council of Thieves AP?



## Dimitri Mazieres (Mar 16, 2010)

Well, pretty much what it says on the title. I've looked over the AP's description and it sounds pretty interesting. What do the people that have read/run it think of it? And, being a Pathfinder product, I would assume it wouldn't take much effort to port it over 3.5. Is that so?


----------



## Qualidar (Mar 16, 2010)

I'm a big fan of Paizo, but I thought it was the weakest I've read – which is all of them, except for Second Darkness (which I'm playing in). It just didn't grab me. Part of that was a weak opening adventure, and part of that is the fact that the group I'd run it for are hack & slashy, and wouldn't appreciate the rollplaying in the second adventure, which was the best of the run. I don't think it did a great job of setting up the ending and the reveal of the villains, but I haven't run it, just read it. I can see how it _could_ work out nicely, but it just didn't excite me to read. 

In contrast: their latest (Kingmaker) looks amazing. 

Like all Pathfinder stuff I think you could probably just run it as is for 3.5, assuming you don't get too anal about skill points and stuff like that.


----------



## MortalPlague (Mar 16, 2010)

I haven't seen this AP, but the name intrigues me.  Do the players play a council of thieves, or members of a thieves guild?  Or are they against said council?  I like the first option much better.


----------



## roguerouge (Mar 16, 2010)

Get the second module, even if you don't like the way that the freedom fighters concept played out. (I thought it took way, way too long to solve the first quest of freeing the streets from... well, you'll find out.) I'd have rather had that be a single adventure, with an adventure centered on the Hellknights and one on the church of Asmodeus. I'd say this is pretty fair, with the second adventure being an outstanding must-buy for DMs. How many adventures feature theaters... and include a play with the actors' lines!? That made that adventure for me.


----------



## Starfox (Mar 16, 2010)

Whatever else it was, it had unappealing marketing - it was the point where I canceled my subscription. I think I'll get the second scenario and run it as a part of Crimson Throne eventually, along with the first adventure from (the otherwise quite bad) Rising Darkness AP.

I must say that the only AP I really liked so far is Curse of the Crimson Throne. Savage Tide was Paizo's best and is absolutely wonderful and the other Dungeon paths are good too, but the Pathfinder ones are a bit Meh.


----------



## Dimitri Mazieres (Mar 17, 2010)

Mmm... It seems that this AP somewhat failed to meet its expectations. That's too bad, the premise sounded quite interesting.
I guess I should try to get the Curse of the Crimson Throne instead. It seems to be regarded in a generally positive light.


----------



## ruemere (Mar 17, 2010)

*I'm reading Twice Damned Prince (the last part of AP) and here are my thoughts on the AP (some spoilers follow):*

*The premises *
You and your friends set out to bring hope back to dying city. You need to be play it civil, invest into social skills (until later issues) and use guerilla tactics.

*The execution*
The city is surprisingly sketchy (maps list only important locations). Most dungeons and encounters are short (list of locations with descriptions, a few, pardon my language, mobs to kill, several key aspects underlined). Foreshadowing of some major events is very limited (just like in final chapters of Legacy of Fire) making them look quite non-special.

*The stuff to stand out*
The play (chapter two), the meltdown concept (chapter four), the party (after play).

*The stuff which stands out in a bad way*
The play. The hag tree encounter.

*The stuff which did not stand out, but it was nevertheless very well crafted*
Both Otyugh NPCs. Dungeons. Zol. And many other neat things.


*And the verdicts is...*
This is a very good and at the same time very demanding adventure path. A GM needs to do a lot of work (or should do a lot of work) before running it in order to let it really shine - however, the scenario thanks to utilizing the loose framework concepts is very easy to work with.

*Things I would do before running it*

(major spoilers)

1. Chapter one: Pathfinder Adventure Path #25: The Bastards of Erebus (Council of Thieves 1 of 6) (PFRPG)

It's very, very bland. The characters do two things and then it's over for the weekend.
In order to make it shine, all you need to do is to stress dark side of the city - a few well placed public executions (or mutilations) will do wonders. Have your healers run out of healing and then have several useless NPCs simply die out of wounds. Don't be afraid to kill main NPC sponsors to make the players feel really alone (there will be more heroic figures to send the characters on errands).
Finally, since the characters are starting as almost ordinary folk, have them go about their lives (make sure they have families and kin), and then... *Half-Life* *Half-Life* *Half-Life*... or at the very least, have several intense roleplaying encounters where the friends advise the heroes not to risk, not to endanger their lives for the sake of half-ruined and corrupt city.

2. Chapter 2: Pathfinder Adventure Path #26: The Sixfold Trial (Council of Thieves 2 of 6) (PFRPG)

The big problem here is the play. It's a great idea, but enterprising players will terrorize the rest of the cast and play dirty behind the scenes (mine would at least). Otherwise, there is a real danger of snoring (or snorting) during some lengthy lines to be delivered. Also, since the characters do not have much at stake here (obtaining passes to the party later is not going to be difficult at their levels), they may flatly refuse to risk (and simply roll damage dice during trials).
The good news here is that the scenario provides means to make the play really entertaining:
- hostage situations (remember these useless NPCs from previous chapter? remember families and friends and debates whether it was worth to risk life to save the city?) thanks to the priestly overseer
- have the decorations break down during certain phases (nothing like flood of acid or monsters running around the stage loose)
- oh, and tell the characters that they really need to pretend that all goes according to plan

The party afterwards is very well written. You have courses described, foreshadowing of bad stuff to happen and finally, there is a short dungeon with a twist.

3. Chapter 3: Pathfinder Adventure Path #27: What Lies in Dust (Council of Thieves 3 of 6) (PFRPG)

Clue hunt followed by outstanding dungeon with little NPC interaction. The opponents are such an interesting bunch - it's a shame they exist almost purely for sparring purposes.
The advice here would be to change combat encounters into more social ones - have a few NPCs outright betray their masters instead of fighting the party.

4. Chapter 4: Pathfinder Adventure Path #28: The Infernal Syndrome (Council of Thieves 4 of 6) (PFRPG)

The *Half-Life* chapter. Everything goes from bad to worse to catastrophically bad. If any of the useless NPCs survived, kill them now. If any of family members or friends survive, have half of them disappear, and the other half of them lament their fates.
The only thing this chapter is lacking, is to have a wide panorama of unveiling terror... Cthulhu-styled nightmares, poets committing grotesque group suicides and anything else you can throw at the characters to make them feel alone.
For the final part, bring a timer to the table. Start it. Decline polite inquiries as to the reason the timer is working. Decline frustrated inquiries. Look worried if the players are taking too long. Sigh relieved each time they cross a room.

Oh, and don't let the players realize what they are up against. They may flee the city instead of doing the right thing.

5. Chapter 5: Pathfinder Adventure Path #29: Mother of Flies (Council of Thieves 5 of 6) (PFRPG)

Just a combat encounter and a dungeon. And a new useless NPC to waste. Hmm. Make it two or three useless NPCs.
Double the forces fighting the hag - just spread them a bit more. Otherwise, with some hit and run tactics, the characters won't need to break sweat.

For the dungeon... turn it into asylum for Westcrown refugees. Dark, crowdy and full of Soylent Green hungry people. Let's face it, after chapter four, no dungeon is going to look good enough (especially the traps are bad... with the DCs involved no sane thief would apply for guild tests - the thieves are supposed to care about themselves, not to use deadly trials).

Back to asylum concept - the thieves should act as respectable caretakers. So it should be easy to infiltrate, but any armed conflict would spell doom of innocents. Dilemmas and undercover work are fun!

6. Chapter 6: Pathfinder Adventure Path #30: The Twice-Damned Prince (Council of Thieves 6 of 6) (PFRPG)

Still reading this one, so at the risk of being highly inaccurate, here we go:
- 4E Tieflings look bad. One does not need to like DiTerlizzi art to realize that less distinct features of outsider heritage are much more charming and look less vulgar. Forget Eccardian looks and try picture him as a devious politician.

There are many nice encounters and city of Westcrown is ready for high noon showdown. This is the moment to let survivors appear from ruins and cheer the characters on - a few spare potions from grateful merchants, a kiss and a bunch of miraculously fresh flowers, a few lost kin coming back.

During this chapter the characters are supposed to capitalize on heroic deeds made before - let them bask in appreciation of common folk. This is going to make the final fights all the more important.

I am at the loss as how to present the sister though. She should have a chance to produce some lasting effect on characters. As for Eccardian, he may have nice stats, but it's nothing a good elemental summon cannot handle. Have a wizard with some antis-summon spells on the standby near.

----

Okies, that's all. As I said, I like this AP. It has it's problems, but it's not restraining GMs (no time or resource limits). It has a lot of potential for good interaction with NPCs.

Regards,
Ruemere

PS. Still, the hag... I think I will let her croak just before the PCs arrive and let them try to work around that.


----------



## BryonD (Mar 17, 2010)

I have to agree with the general sentiment above.

I ran Bastards.  But you would barely recognize it.  There was a sidebar with a one line mention of a goblin bandit named Whitechin.  I turned that into a whole side adventure that took over.  The raid on the Bastards survived, but even that ended up being part of my replacement plot with the whole Council connection (i.e. the point of the AP) out the window.

Even Whitechin was different than described.  Instead of an old crafty goblin, I was inspired by the name and invented an air sorcerer with a scarred face.  His power was tied to a nasty thing summoned by accident by a group of evil druids outside of town.

I ran the play.  And that was a blast!
I also ran the dinner, which was fun.  After that I've pretty much thrown the rest out.  The campaign is probably going to strike out from Westcrown to chase after evil druids.  (and much worse)


----------



## Dark Mistress (Mar 18, 2010)

Personally now that I have all of them i rate the AP's as thus

Rise of the Rune Lords
Curse of the Crimson Throne
Legacy of Fire
Council of Thieves
Second Darkness

I use to have LoF and CoT flipped but after finally getting the last one I flipped them. I thought CoT was pretty good, but feel it requires more work than most by the GM to make it work for their group. If you get lucky to have players that fit well great. I haven't run it only read it so far.


----------



## catsclaw227 (Mar 19, 2010)

I have Rise of the Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne, and both are quite good.

I stopped my Paizo subscription after I had a baby, and we've mostly been playing 4e, but tonight I just restarted a new subscription for Kingmaker.


----------



## Henry (Mar 19, 2010)

Our group played the first adventure, and the DM called a halt, saying it was just "too weird" the way it was supposed to play out. We opted for a setting and adventure series he was more comfortable with, and we hopped to Riddleport/Freeport, instead. So far, it's been fun.

The only thing I didn't enjoy with Council of Thieves was the absolute hopelessness that was assured being damn near the only decent of even amoral folks in town. It was like being in a party full of Biblical Daniels in Babylon, and the second you didn't bow down to Asmodeus to save your hide, it was off with your head.


----------



## ruemere (Mar 19, 2010)

Henry said:


> Our group played the first adventure, and the DM called a halt, saying it was just "too weird" the way it was supposed to play out. We opted for a setting and adventure series he was more comfortable with, and we hopped to Riddleport/Freeport, instead. So far, it's been fun.
> 
> The only thing I didn't enjoy with Council of Thieves was the absolute hopelessness that was assured being damn near the only decent of even amoral folks in town. It was like being in a party full of Biblical Daniels in Babylon, and the second you didn't bow down to Asmodeus to save your hide, it was off with your head.




The outline of AP should have been written by someone from eastern part of Europe. For all AP's worth, there is one very important aspect missing from the larger picture - common folk.
Under all totalitarian regimes, it's up to them to make difference (for the world and for the PCs), since once you highlight the "this is for my friends and my family" part, your players will feel involved each time a bystander is threatened.

Regards,
Ruemere


----------



## MerricB (Mar 19, 2010)

Henry said:


> The only thing I didn't enjoy with Council of Thieves was the absolute hopelessness that was assured being damn near the only decent of even amoral folks in town.




Also the problem with Second Darkness. 

Except you were meant to be scum. Except when you weren't.

Cheers!


----------

