# Why do so many people hate Voyager?



## Eternalknight (Jul 29, 2002)

Personally, it got me into the whole Trek thing, so I may have a soft spot for it, but I can't understand why people bag Voyager so much.  It had the Borg, the EMH, Seven of 9, some good stories, etc.  Please explain.


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## drowdude (Jul 29, 2002)

I just couldnt stomach Voyager... although, I have to admit that I did watch it... well... after Jeri Ryan joined the cast anyways... 


DS9 all the way!!!


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 29, 2002)

Many stories were solved with "Tech Babble", and followed the same, primitive pattern. That was a real weakness.
"We have a [TECH] on sensors." "[TECH] Failure". "If we find the [TECH], we send [insert one of the main characters] to do [TECH] and just hope that [TECH or Villain] doesn`t do anything about it..."
As a sideplot: "Harry likes woman, Woman turns to be a monster/criminal/holograpic figure"
As an episode entry: "Shuttle gets lost / crashes"

There were interesting Stories, yes, but they often could not compensate the weak ones. 

The character development was very poor in many cases. Think of Chakotay or Harry Kim (is he still Ensign?). 
The Holodoc was made nice, seven, and we saw some changes in Janeway behaviour. 
The development we saw was not always that interesting. 

Hey, they had a crew of two different ships that orignally were enemies, and what happens? Nothing! 

They are far away from the Federation and Starfleet, and do they ignore their rules, or bend them? No! Not even the old Maquis, who "rebelled" against the Federation because of some stupid laws and rules.

Mustrum Ridcully


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## Miho (Jul 29, 2002)

I'm not too sure why I hate Voyager so much. It just never really grabbed my attention like Next Generation or DS9. Plus I took an instant dislike to Janeway, again, not too sure why. I think maybe she was just such a let down as a female captain.

They should have made Seven of Nine captain of the ship. Now there is a fantastic female character. The only redeming features of the series were her and the holodoc. He always made me laugh, and the romance story line between him and Seven was really nicely done.

I think at the end of the day I just didn't care what happened to any of the other characters. And I found too many of them downright annoying. I haven't watched enough of the series to remember their names but there was at least four or five in the first few episodes I couldn't stand. Not a good start to a series. I only really became interested enough to watch any episodes quite a long way in.


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## Furn_Darkside (Jul 29, 2002)

*Because the show was poorly written?*

Salutations,

First, the show was just poorly written.

Second, a list of the common problems:

1) They would introduce major plot revelations, but never touch them again.

2) The doctor would do something irrational and almost get the whole ship destroyed/captured, but in the end Janeway would just pat him on the shoulder and say he is just becoming more human.

3) 7of9 became the center of the universe- oh, excuse me, her breasts became the center of the universe. I guess it helps to sleep with a producer/writer of the show- a shame it could not make her act.

4) Any time the vulcan security officer would start to strut his stuff- it would turn out he was having mental problems or he needed someone else to solve the issue at hands.

5) From the movie first contact: The Borg are dead! 
    Next week on Voyager: Long live the borg!

6) Made Q a pathetic joke.

7) The Maquis/Starfleet tension disappears unless it is needed for a story.

8) They are out in the middle of nowhere- where no one has gone before, but they run into something from their quandant quite a lot.

9) Janeway was the poorest character of the bunch, and probably should have been removed from command multiple times for her instability- the biggest being when she fell in love with a hologram.

10) The morons who produced/wrote this show are on Enterprise. Making sure that Star Trek does not improve- and they prove it with every episode.

11) Had a "Lost In Space" 1960's feel of every story being so close to going home, but it just slipping through their fingers once again.

Reasons to like Voyager:

1) Barkley

2) .... it is not on the air anymore to gut the Star Trek universe.

FD


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## Umbran (Jul 29, 2002)

I didn't "hate" Voyager at all.  I just found it disappointing.

From what I've been able to determine (from statements by the actors and writing staff), the show had a policy - the alien characters are the focus of the show, the human characters are there to put them in contrast.  Worse, generally they chose to focus on only two of the "alien" characters.  

That's it, in a nutshell.  They left most of the characters flat in order to act as contrast for only a couple.  They had a whole cast of soild, promising character concepts, but developed only a couple of them.  The cast was made up of fine actors all, but most of them were used as window dressing.  

If they had used that ensemble better (as they did in DS9, for example) I could look past most of the other minor flaws.


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## RatPunk (Jul 29, 2002)

*Re: Because the show was poorly written?*



			
				Furn_Darkside said:
			
		

> *3) 7of9 became the center of the universe- oh, excuse me, her breasts became the center of the universe. I guess it helps to sleep with a producer/writer of the show- a shame it could not make her act.*





This pretty much sums it up for me.

Actually, I didn't hate Voyager and think they actually did quite a few really good episodes.

But in the last 3 seasons, the show was too focused on one character, that being the aforementioned 7 of 9. Even when she wasn't the main character of an episode, she was usually so integral to the plot that she had as much to do as the main character (and often times even saved the day). With a cast as talented and unused as the show had, that's just a crime. They forgot the meaning of the word "ensemble".

And the whole return of Kes episode in the final season was just WRONG.

Just my $.02


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## JacktheRabbit (Jul 29, 2002)

What to hate about Voyager.

1. Janeway was a moralistic, dictatorial b*tch who couldnt understand being a leader if it took a dump on her.

2. Poor premise. FAr from home but stopping every second to screw with the neighbors.

3. The worlds most pathetic vulcan.

4. Is this a starship or an orphage for every dumb alien they meet without a home.

5. What the heck kind of lame name for a ship is "Voyager" anyways?

6. The show made the Borg dumb.

7. The show made Q even dumber.

8. Even as the crew took casualties you never it put a strain on keeping the ship operating.


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## Henry (Jul 29, 2002)

I'm not touching all the flames with a ten foot pole. However, I will touch on the most disappointing thing for me for the whole Voyager series: lack of continuity. As one poster mentioned, they would often introduce ship-shaking revelations, only to patently ignore them the next episode. I can understand airing something out-of-sequence every once in a while, but frankly there were many instances where it became ludicrous. One notable example was Tom Paris stealing the Delta Flyer to save someone, being captured and court-martialed, and then bumped down to rank ensign. The very next week, and indeed for the rest of the season, no mention was made of this event! Only once in a later episode was he referred to as "Ensign Paris."

Many other examples are there for the finding. But as a whole, it was too disjointed for me to enjoy thoroughly, and the "reset button" was too often hit for me to enjoy it. ("The year of hell" episodes, anyone?)


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## Cor Azer (Jul 29, 2002)

I don't hate Voyager, but it's definately my least favorite Trek series. As someone else said, the lack of consistency, both in plot developments and character developments. Certain characters weren't really touched (Chakotay and Harry), and too many (Paris) would suddenly develop hobbies when it was important to the story. The writers never really had a firm grip of Janeway's character - they couldn't seem to decide if she was a combat captain or a diplomatic one.

And too much time travel... Done well, it can be cool, but Voyager used it too often and usually, not very well.


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## ghettognome (Jul 29, 2002)

I actually really liked Voyager. I agree that there were some poorly written things with it. Janeway wasn't really a good captain, or actor for that matter, but I liked a lot of the storylines that came through all the seasons with the doctor, 7, and so on and such. I wasn't watching it from a Trekie point of view, I have been watching Star Trek since I was super little. Have seen all TNG episopes at least 3 times, and even didn't mind DS9, though I found it less appealing than most found Voyager. I think its downfall had more to do with the fact that there were major Treckie fans watching it and analyzing every little thing for consistency and it just couldn't measure up to TNG and the original series.
Now if you want a Star Trek that really sucks is Enterprise. I just kept getting really annoyed with the captian, and the fact that it was supposed to be set pre-original Star Treck time, and it is turning out a lot like early TNG, totally not what it should be. If people need to complain about a Star Trek, that should be the version that people complain about.
I guess I am done talking for now.


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## Welverin (Jul 29, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *6. The show made the Borg dumb.*




Wrong. The movie First Contact made the Borg Dumb. Voyager just continued the tradition.


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## Furn_Darkside (Jul 29, 2002)

Welverin said:
			
		

> *
> Wrong. The movie First Contact made the Borg Dumb. Voyager just continued the tradition. *




Err.. wrong, TNG made the Borg dumb. First Contact made that a tradition, and Voyager put the final nail in the coffin to them being a joke.

FD


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## Ranger REG (Jul 29, 2002)

Why do I find _VOY_ disappointing?

Two words: Brannon Braga.

Before he took over as the show's executive producer, he was a decent writer. That much I'll give him credit to. In fact, he wrote some pretty decent episodes from _TNG_ (most of them Borg) and the first three seasons of _VOY._

But one he took the mantle of leadership from the departing producers Piller and Taylor, everything went downhill from there. He cast Jeri Ryan as a borg crewmember Seven, who eventually formed an intimate relationship following Ms. Ryan's divorce, and started to make _VOY_ into the "Seven of Nine Show."

He blatantly and flagrantly ignores continuity. Stories he wrote tend to be a little longer than an hour, which is why you see a rapid wrap-up of the episode, after the story had its pace set from the beginning to the middle. Stories he wrote tend to be geared toward horny males 14-18.

And what's worse, the character development is so out-of-control and random. You can't really get a handle on each character's persona.

And yeah, the Borg went from mysterious and major threat to a minor nuisance.

Now I see it also happening on _ENTERPRISE._


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## King_Stannis (Jul 30, 2002)

the show had some good points, but it just never delivered on it's potential. as several people have stated better than i could have, it just sort of devolved into banality after a while. there was never anything that made me wince in pain, and several times there was nothing that grabbed my attention enough to prevent me from changing channels. 

in fact, the show made very little impact on me. given enough time, i'd probably forget that it ever existed.


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## LightPhoenix (Jul 30, 2002)

I'll second everybody on the poor writing reason - the show was just bad.  Even the first few seasons weren't anything compared to the writing that, say, DS9 had.  In addition, the show obviously became too focused on Jeri Ryan (7 of 9) after she was introduced.  Only in the first season or two did the show really have the feel of an ensemble cast, something Voyager sorely needed.  After all, there's all these Star Fleet and Maquis trying to get along in a world where their ideals don't matter, where people have never even heard of humans or Bajor or what have you.  They needed to rely on each other, and instead it turned into the Janeway/Seven show.

My own personal reason, which I don't think anyone has mentioned yet (if you haven't figured it out), is that Voyager had a metric buttload of potential, and it was squandered.  Voyager started out with an interesting premise and some interesting characters and potentials for character growth.  For example, imagine if you will:

Janeway as a naive, moralistic captain who believed in following the rules, and who would have to make some tough choices and hopefully learn that following the rules were not all there was to being a captain.  Especially in a part of space where there were no rules and no Federation to back them up.

Neelix as a rebellious alien from a planet of people both uninterested and too afraid to search beyond the stars.  A man at odds with his people, struggling to understand people who have made a life out of exploring.  A man who knows much of the space they are in, but never listened to because he is simple a cook, not a soldier or a pilot or even important.

Tuvok as the consumate Vulcan, acting as the voice of reason and restraint on a ship where everyone will do anything to get home.  Straining against the virtues of logic when his family waits for him at home, torn between doing what is right and what is logical (doing whatever is necessary to get home, because they won't have much of an impact in this quadrant).

Chakotay as the leader of the Maquis left on Voyager, wanting to help his people get home, learning that not all of Star Fleet is bad but knowing that things will likely be the same when he gets home.

Torres as a woman trapped between the Human and Klingon worlds, mistrusted because of what her people did so long ago.  Mistrusted for her passion and her impatience, but shockingly brilliant among a savage people, struggling to reconcile the two halves of her heritage.

Kim as a lowly crew member, learning to be more than his bumbling self, learning to be confident and losing some of his innocence along the way.

Paris as the charismatic hotshot pilot who realizes that his actions have consequences for himself and for others, learning to use his charisma and skills not to impress but to lead people to victory.

Do you see where I'm going with this?  I'm hoping you can at least see the potential for good storytelling - a potential which was wasted, thrown away by poor writers.  That's why I don't like this show.

Oh, and I never liked the Doctor character - though Picardo was often times IMO the saving grace of the show.  He is a great actor, and I love catching him in other stuff.


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## madriel (Jul 30, 2002)

I'm yet another person who thought Voyager had an interesting premise and great character concepts, yet wasted both.  It had a lot of potential but it got bogged down with inconsistent writing.  It was painful to watch sometimes because you could see the cool ideas so clearly, but they were just not developed.  It felt like the writers weren't sure what direction to take the show.


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## Chun-tzu (Jul 30, 2002)

I agree with a lot of what's been said already. Good premise, tons of potential, very little of it tapped. There were some ok episodes, but none of them come to me off-hand (unlike TNG and DS9). There were a number of episodes that I *hated*. There was one with aliens that aged just like humans, only backwards, which is SO unbelievably and ridiculously unsound that I found it insulted my intelligence (and the plot did not justify such a lame concept). And the year-in-hell storyline was one thing, but the one where you find out at the end of the episode that we've been following the adventures of copies of the crew for who-knows how long, and so who knows which episodes were really them and which weren't? God, that's horrible story-telling.

The characters:
1) I don't think Janeway was that terrible, and don't have any major problems with her (or Kate Mulgrew).
2) 7 of 9 is really hot, sure, and I'd say she's the second hottest Star Trek babe (Jadzia is far sexier), but she had NO personality. It didn't bother me much at first, but it bugs me now. The character is quite bland, despite all the airtime she got. And the monotone voice irks me. It's fine for androids and vulcans, but just didn't work for me on her. 
3) Yes, Voyager ruined the Borg and Q, 2 of the greatest nemeses on TNG.
4) Poor Harry Kim was more often an embarrassment to the uniform than a credit. As an Asian male, that ticks me off.
5) I liked the Doctor, but thought he was SO anthropomorphized. The Doctor is NOT Data, and IMHO should not have been another human-wannabe. A condescending, arrogant, I'm-better-than-you-are EMH would have been fine in my book. I also don't like the way he identified himself as a hologram. He's not, he's an artificial intelligence. The best analogy you could make is that the hologram is his body, but the true doctor was the computer program.
6) As has been stated already, the return of Kes was an extremely poor way of treating a character who had been part of the Voyager family.
7) They shouldn't have killed Ensign Sudor (the Betazoid murderer). He could have been Voyager's Garak! They really shouldn't have killed him.

Actually, the premise was pretty good, but has a flaw. You know from the beginning that they're not making it home until the end. A premise like that works even better when you have a writer who's willing to totally twist things around on you, when the cast itself is changing every season, and the show is not afraid to change or evolve. It would be interesting to have seen Joss Whedon at the helm. Or, if not that, at least do the epic story arcs, like DS9 and B5. The return home should have been an epic story arc, not that 2-hour finale that was so unsatisfying.

All that said, Voyager is okay. I watch it in reruns (only because I've seen all the TNG episodes often enough, and there are no TV stations in Chicago that show DS9).


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## orbitalfreak (Jul 30, 2002)

The worst thing about Voyager?

So many missed opportunities.  The premise of the show was great, but the execution was far below par.

However, some amazing episodes emerged from the show.  _Scorpion_, and _Year of Hell_ were both awesome.  I enjoyed the character of The Doctor (Robert Picardo) very much, though I agree Janeway patted his back too much.  And Barclay!  My favorite character, seeing him was just  *ahem*KEWL!

DS9, though, remains my favorite series; however, I hope that Enterprise stays as good as it is, and especially hope that it improves in the future.  After all, it has only been out for one season.  Not to mention, the song is just sweet. 

"Its been a long road..."


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## Ranger REG (Jul 30, 2002)

The only good thing about _ENTERPRISE_ is the song.  

I am still skeptical whenever Braga is running the show, and he is running _ENTERPRISE._ To the cast, I feel sorry for them.


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## Eternalknight (Jul 30, 2002)

I like Enterprise.  I am not a trekkie, but the show is good.  The final episode of season 1 has left me intrigued:

SPOLIER WARNING























  who, or what, could destroy Earth?


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## drowdude (Jul 30, 2002)

how anti-climatic...


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## Welverin (Jul 30, 2002)

Furn_Darkside said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Err.. wrong, TNG made the Borg dumb. First Contact made that a tradition, and Voyager put the final nail in the coffin to them being a joke.
> 
> FD *




Well I consider the stupidity to have started when the borg could just inject people with nano machines to transform them, which first appeared in First Contact. If it wasn't for FC then 7 of 9 wouldn't have been able to save the day every other episode.

Where do you think they started down the path of stupidity?


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## Furn_Darkside (Jul 30, 2002)

Welverin said:
			
		

> *
> Where do you think they started down the path of stupidity? *




The two part episode in TNG that had Lore taking over the Borg.

I have blocked out most of that monstrosity from my memory- so i can not offer any details.

Or perhaps the episode where they find a borg and make the borg their friend.. awww...

FD


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## Umbran (Jul 30, 2002)

Originally, it was stated that the Borg do not care about or assimilate individuals, that they deal with whole cultures.  TheBorg went awry when they veered away from that statement.


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## Welverin (Jul 30, 2002)

Furn_Darkside said:
			
		

> *
> 
> The two part episode in TNG that had Lore taking over the Borg.
> 
> ...




Ah, ok. Though I think the ones Lore took over were cut off from the collective some how, but I may not be remembering so well myself.


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## Staffan (Jul 30, 2002)

Welverin said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Ah, ok. Though I think the ones Lore took over were cut off from the collective some how, but I may not be remembering so well myself. *



As I recall, you're right. Lore's borgs are actually one of the few good examples of continuity in Star Trek. The start was in the "I, Borg" episode someone mentioned, where the crew finds a borg who has been removed from the collective. While they are working on a method to use him to spread a "mental virus" to the rest of the Borg, the crew become friends with him and he develops individuality. In the end, they decide not to use the mental virus and hope that "Hugh's" individuality will "infect" the Borg instead.

In "Descent", the two-parter with Lore and the Borg, we learn that part of Hugh's collective *were* affected by his individuality - and were shattered as a result. Lore came along and gave them a purpose.


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## Dahak (Aug 11, 2002)

I don't hate the show, but it definitely has a "diluted" feel that the other shows didn't. Alot of that comes from the fact that several of the cast members were really not into it, and their performances seemed forced.


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## Staffan (Aug 11, 2002)

Another problem with the show was that they cut themselves off from the events and people of the Alpha Quadrant. That meant they couldn't use klingons, romulans, vulcans, cardassians, bajorans, betazoids, and so on (at least not on a regular basis - the Caretaker *did* capture more than one ship, after all). That might not have been so bad, if they had come up with new aliens that were actually interesting - instead we got kazon, vidiians and hirogen as the only new aliens (the borg don't qualify as "new") I can recall that they met more than once or twice. Bah.

Also, the nature of the show prevented them from reusing most of the aliens. Voyager was constantly on the move, so the only races they might meet more than once or twice would be scattered ones, and those usually aren't as fun as organized aliens with cohesive territories.


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## Tsyr (Aug 11, 2002)

What don't I like about Voyager?

Hoooboy. I'll keep it short to focus on some of my "core" problems.

1) Janeway. Why has the crew not launched her out of a photon torpedo tube by now? How many chances to get home has she blown because of her "We represent the federation wherever we go." speach? Yet, whenever a way to get home is NOT at steak, damn the prime directive, meddle all you like! How many times did she recklessly and needlessly endanger the entire ship? How many times did she do something so un-captainish that she would have picard turning in his grave (if he was dead)? 

2) Seven of Nine. Someone else had it right... the show turned into the Seven of Nine show... at least in the first couple seasons of TNG, Wesley didn't save the ship EVERY episode, just every 2-3... And how the heck many times did she violate the captains direct orders and never get more than a stern talking to?

3) Neelix. Ok, so they tried to replace Guinan (SP?) from TNG. Sure, I'm cool with that. But Neelix was just irritating. 

4) Lack of Continuity. Another one many have mentioned. An as-yet un-mentioned example: The crew is on replicator rations, right? Things are tight and all? So why in the heck does the holodeck seem to get 24/7 use? For gods sake, for a while they had a program running 24/7 for a really long time... ONE PROGRAM!

5) The Doctor. I'm sorry, he's no Data. Not by a long shot. Data had character. The doc is a character. If you follow. Data was... believeable, for what he was. The doc is just... flat. 

5b) Another point about this. What was the inital estimate for getting home? 60 or 70 years? And what is the estimate when you figure they spend better than 50% of their time orbiting some planet or studying some stellar phenomenon? 

6) We are shown the "might" of the borg empire. *shudder* Yet one lone, under-crewed ship lightyears from re-enforcements continues to be a thorn in their side. 

6b) For that matter, we see that between the borg and earth there are hundreds, if not THOUSANDS of civilzations... the borg just seem holed up in one nebula. I always envisioned (based on guinans descriptions, and the few sensor readings data took when they were in borg space in TNG) that the entire quadrant the borg where in was just wasteland. Why are they even BOTHERING with earth yet?

Don't even get me started with First Contact or Enterprise...


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## Staffan (Aug 11, 2002)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> *4) Lack of Continuity. Another one many have mentioned. An as-yet un-mentioned example: The crew is on replicator rations, right? Things are tight and all? So why in the heck does the holodeck seem to get 24/7 use? For gods sake, for a while they had a program running 24/7 for a really long time... ONE PROGRAM!
> (SNIP)
> 5b) Another point about this. What was the inital estimate for getting home? 60 or 70 years? And what is the estimate when you figure they spend better than 50% of their time orbiting some planet or studying some stellar phenomenon?
> *



In defense of the show... the replicator rations was a problem fairly early in the show. After a while, they got all systems up to speed again and had a fairly decent resource level.

I find it more unbelievable that this ship with ~140 crew members far away from home have managed to go beyond mainstream Starfleet technology in several areas, such as the Delta Flyer. OK, they have the advantage of some Borg tech, but still...


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## Ranger REG (Aug 12, 2002)

I can't believe they built the Delta Flyer, when they have the Captain's Aerowing Shuttle on the bottom of the Voyager's Saucer/Primary Hull section.

Then again, they did it in order to incorporate Borg technology with other technology they acquired in the Delta Quadrant. And they did so in a race to retrieve something in a gas giant against their competitor, them stinky Malon.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 12, 2002)

> 6b) For that matter, we see that between the borg and earth there are hundreds, if not THOUSANDS of civilzations... the borg just seem holed up in one nebula. I always envisioned (based on guinans descriptions, and the few sensor readings data took when they were in borg space in TNG) that the entire quadrant the borg where in was just wasteland. Why are they even BOTHERING with earth yet?



Well, that might be explained - probably the borg ship that encountered the Enterprise (when Q send them there) detected to many intereting facts aboard the "stolen" ship parts. - The Federation is a highly advanced "space nation", and it seems if there was nothing like that in the Delta Quadrant ...

But the voyager really seemed to make the Borg ridicolous - such a litte and weak ship, but never where the Borg able to destroy and/or capture it. Why? How did the conquer their terretories? How did the succed at Wolf 359?

Mustrum Ridcully


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## Umbran (Aug 12, 2002)

Right folks - as if you've never before liked fiction where the heros managed to win out when nobody else could beat the bad guy.  Heck, I'd expect some of you have played in and loved RPGs where such things happened.  Being people who can win out when others cannot is a mainstay of heroic fiction.

Why did the crew of Voyager win?  Because the show's named after them, folks!  Be a darned short series otherwise.


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## Eternalknight (Aug 12, 2002)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *Right folks - as if you've never before liked fiction where the heros managed to win out when nobody else could beat the bad guy.  Heck, I'd expect some of you have played in and loved RPGs where such things happened.  Being people who can win out when others cannot is a mainstay of heroic fiction.
> 
> Why did the crew of Voyager win?  Because the show's named after them, folks!  Be a darned short series otherwise. *




The man has a point


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## Tsyr (Aug 12, 2002)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *Right folks - as if you've never before liked fiction where the heros managed to win out when nobody else could beat the bad guy.  Heck, I'd expect some of you have played in and loved RPGs where such things happened.  Being people who can win out when others cannot is a mainstay of heroic fiction.
> 
> Why did the crew of Voyager win?  Because the show's named after them, folks!  Be a darned short series otherwise. *




The simple solution would be to not pit them against species that are so far beyond them technology wise that Voyager should, realisticly, have all the same threat to them the a bi-plane would have to voyager. I mean, god... Species-whatever you call it, the Borg (numerous times... god, Voyager must be leading a pack of persuing borg all the way home), ships from 300 years in the federation future, etc. At least not time and time again. Once or twice? Sure. Not time and time again.

Voyager, basicly, ruined the borg for me. The borg went from the vauge menacing threat that was chilling to think about to someone who presents no more threat than a pack of angry ferengi.


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## Umbran (Aug 12, 2002)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> *At least not time and time again. Once or twice? Sure. Not time and time again.*




*shrug*  Another mainstay of fiction - wits, guile, and tenacity win out over brute strength.  

Kirk won out against alien forces with vast powers - the Squire of Gothos, an Olypian god, the Doomsday Weapon.  Picard stood up against the omnipotent Q time and again, as well as his crew beign the first folk to face down the borg multiple times.  Time travelling borg, even, if you count movies.  Sisko held off the Founders and the Pah Wraiths...

In all the other series, the characters do the same basic thing.  They generally don't get by because they are more powerful, or even on equal footing.  They win (and are considered heros) because they beat the odds.  

This goes on to other genre shows - on B5, a small human crew is responsible for beating the Shadows (and the Vorlons, actually), the Psi Corps, and their own government - all superior forces.  They do it not by being strong, but by being bright, and in the right   On Stargate SG1, it's the Goa'uld.  On Farscape the Peacekeepers, the Scaran, and countless other powerful enemies.

The real question isn't what the odds were, but if the story told about facing the odds was interesting.  And that's where Voyager tended to fail, where the others succeeded.  If they'd told a good story, the niggling detail of it being implausible wouldn't be an issue


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## Storm Raven (Aug 12, 2002)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *shrug*  Another mainstay of fiction - wits, guile, and tenacity win out over brute strength.
> 
> Kirk won out against alien forces with vast powers - the Squire of Gothos, an Olypian god, the Doomsday Weapon.*





Kirk only defeated the doomsday weapon because another ship captain sacrificed his life in an assist. The Squire of Gothos was overcome by other powerful alien beings. The Olympian gods were overcome by discovering their secret, and matching their power.



> *Picard stood up against the omnipotent Q time and again, as well as his crew beign the first folk to face down the borg multiple times.  Time travelling borg, even, if you count movies.*





They encountered the borg five times in TNG (if you count the movie). I'd hardly call their encounters a ringing success.

1. When Q tossed them out in space to the original borg cube, the borg pretty much cleaned the Enterprise's clock, _and_ it was only the subsequent intervention of Q that saved them.

2. When the borg cube showed up to attack earth, it was only the fortuituous circumstance that Picard gave away a borg weakeness that allowed humanity to escape. The Federation fleet was annhilated in the process.

3. A _lone_ borg was captured by the Enterprise, and although they caused him to develop individuality, they were still so convinced of the danger of the borg that they made sure to return him to the borg.

4. Lor led the disaffected borg against the Enterprise, and despite the fact that they were dealing with a disorganized rabble of a borg group, the heroes were only able to survive by the timely intervention of Hue.

5. A tiny force of borg went backwards in time and despite the fact that the borg ship was destroyed, they killed or assimilated so many crewmembers that they took over the ship. Only the treachery of Data allowed the borg to be defeated, and only after the crew paid a hefty price.



> *Sisko held off the Founders and the Pah Wraiths...*





I stopped watching the mind numbing boredom that was Deep Space Nine long before these events took place, so I have no comment on them.



> *In all the other series, the characters do the same basic thing.  They generally don't get by because they are more powerful, or even on equal footing.  They win (and are considered heros) because they beat the odds.
> 
> This goes on to other genre shows - on B5, a small human crew is responsible for beating the Shadows (and the Vorlons, actually), the Psi Corps, and their own government - all superior forces.  They do it not by being strong, but by being bright, and in the right *





No, the small human crew is able to get support from one of the military superpowers in the universe (the Minbari), and virtually every nonaligned world in the setting. They form the "largest fleet in history". I'd hardly call that beating their enemy from an inferior position.

Earth is taken on with Minbari help, Psi Corps isn't an enemy of the Babylon 5 characters until Season 5, Bester was actually allied with them through Season 4, and by the time Season 5 rolls around, Sheridan is the ISA President, hardly dealing from a position of weakness.

In many cases, there is plausible help for the outmatched, or the villans had agendas that precluded using their full force on the heroes (for example, Babaylon 5, where the Vorlons and Shadows wanted an ideological victory, not a physical one) which is what makes the stories work. There was very little justification in Voyager for that, which is what made the storylines implausible.


----------



## Tsyr (Aug 12, 2002)

I think, Umbran, I'm mostly just sore over what Voyager did to the borg... The borg, dangitall, were supposed to be FRIGHTENING. They don't scare me in the slightest now. They original borg were this vast, mancing threat... like the Zerg in Starcraft... They didn't just fight, they fought and won... and when they won, they got stronger still, and stronger, and stronger...

But now? Heck.  Now I know that one light scout ship, under-crewed, with no access to the federation as a whole, is a noteable threat to the entire collective. Talk about a let-down.


----------



## Umbran (Aug 12, 2002)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> *I think, Umbran, I'm mostly just sore over what Voyager did to the borg... The borg, dangitall, were supposed to be FRIGHTENING. They don't scare me in the slightest now. They original borg were this vast, mancing threat... like the Zerg in Starcraft... They didn't just fight, they fought and won... and when they won, they got stronger still, and stronger, and stronger...*




Yes, well, that change was inevitable.  People loved the Borg.  The Borg were the best enemy since sliced bread.  We woudln't have forgiven them if they didn't give us the Borg...

But familiarity breeds contempt.

You see, they could not continue to show us and develop the borg as an enemy without given them a face.  If they didn't try to give us more information, it would have turned into, "Yeah, yeah.  another implacable Borg threat of the week.  Whatever.  Get on with it."  But in giving the Borg a face, they cease to be mysterious or implacable.  It was a no-win situation.

I personally think thatit could have been done better, but the results would still have been similar.  



> *
> But now? Heck.  Now I know that one light scout ship, under-crewed, with no access to the federation as a whole, is a noteable threat to the entire collective. Talk about a let-down. *




Um, it might help to stop thinking of Voyager as "one light scout ship".  The _Intrepid_-class starships aren't mere light scouts.  They are supposed to be among "the fastest and most powerful ships in Starfleet" (quote from Startrek.com).   If I recall correctly, while they weren't designed specifically to fight the borg like the _Defiant_, they were designed with the borg threat in mind.  Don't let it's size fool you, it's supposed to be a powerhouse.


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## Umbran (Aug 12, 2002)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Kirk only defeated the doomsday weapon because another ship captain sacrificed his life in an assist. The Squire of Gothos was overcome by other powerful alien beings. The Olympian gods were overcome by discovering their secret, and matching their power.*




Actually, in The Doomsday Weapon, the only assistance Captain Decker lent was to suicide in such a manner that inspired Kirk.  "The Squire of Gothos" shows the classic tactic of the weaker hero - when in doubt, stall for time using your wits, eventually a solution will present itself.  Similarly with Adonais, with the addition that the ship was not equal in power.  The god was essentially a lich - more powerful than the PCs, but with one weakness, that could only be exploited through use of courage and wit.  Simple use of power would not have been sufficient.



> *
> They encountered the borg five times in TNG (if you count the movie). I'd hardly call their encounters a ringing success.
> *




Who needs them to be "ringing successes"?  Against the Borg, mere survival is supposed to be a ringing success.  Yes, often there's a price to be paid - Wolf 359 and in First Contact, lives are lost.  Even Homeric heros sometimes lose compartiots and crew.



> *
> No, the small human crew is able to get support from one of the military superpowers in the universe (the Minbari), and virtually every nonaligned world in the setting. They form the "largest fleet in history". I'd hardly call that beating their enemy from an inferior position.*




Um, except for the fact that that "largest fleet in history" was insufficient to the task.  If you'll think back, you'll remember that said fleet was getting pasted - the Shadow War wasn't won by force of arms, but by having the wit to notice what the actual conflict was, and having the courage to tell both the Shadows and Vorlons to shove off.



> *
> Earth is taken on with Minbari help, Psi Corps isn't an enemy of the Babylon 5 characters until Season 5, Bester was actually allied with them through Season 4, and by the time Season 5 rolls around, Sheridan is the ISA President, hardly dealing from a position of weakness.*




Actually, the battle against Earth forces is won specifcally without Minbari (or any alien) help.  Before the final confrontation, Sheriden sends the aliens to the rear.  If you think Bester and Psi Corps weren't a threat, you don't understand them very well.  Allies?  Yeah, right.  We always brainwash our allies friends and use them to capture allied leaders!  And, in season 5, being president doesn't seem to protect Sheriden's organization from threat of Byron's telepaths.



> *In many cases, there is plausible help for the outmatched, or the villans had agendas that precluded using their full force on the heroes ...
> There was very little justification in Voyager for that, which is what made the storylines implausible.*




Yep.  That's the staple tactic again - delay until youcan find the enemy's weakness.  Of course the weak hero doesn't take the full force of his enemy.  If that happens, the hero dies and you don't have much of a show.  Instead, the hero delays, uses wit and courage to hold on until the right solution is found, grits his teeth and does it.

Actually, generally in Voyager the justification is there, but it isn't a good one, or it is poorly presented.  That's exactly my point.  The problem isn't the situations themselves, as virtually every other sci-fi show has similar situations. The problem is how they are presented.  Nobody minds that the Suire of Gothos was beaten by _deus ex machina_.  The episode is fun.  In B5, nobody minds that the actual conflict is inanely simplistic (and the Vorlons and Shadows both end up looking like spoiled children) - the writers spend entire seasons building up the story and final justifications.  

We accept the implausible because it is well done implausibility. We can willfully suspend our disbelief if it is done with good art and craft.  This was not the case on Voyager.


----------



## Tsyr (Aug 12, 2002)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> 
> Um, it might help to stop thinking of Voyager as "one light scout ship".  The Intrepid-class starships aren't mere light scouts.  They are supposed to be among "the fastest and most powerful ships in Starfleet" (quote from Startrek.com).   If I recall correctly, while they weren't designed specifically to fight the borg like the Defiant, they were designed with the borg threat in mind.  Don't let it's size fool you, it's supposed to be a powerhouse. *




The official status of the Intrepid class is a "light explorer".It lacks any quant torpedos, has a normal payload of a mere 38 photon torpedos, and thirteen phaser banks. While this gives it more phaser power than many cruiser-class ships, its lack of ANY advanced torpedo systems (Neither pulse-fired nor quant) is a weakness in the "current era" of star trek technology. Despite this, however, its mass and crew compliment are less than half of the smallest vessel in the Explorer or Heavy Cruiser designations. The ships that are designated light- or medium- cruisers are science vessels, scout ships, etc.

Really, the Intrepid is kinda a bastard design... It doesn't exactly fit any established list. It's too heavily armed to be a normal scout, lacks the specific systems to be a designated science vessel, has no specific systems that would designated it a "tactical" vessel, has too little mass or crew to be considered a heavy cruiser, and lacks the firepower to be considered a destroyer class.

*shrug*


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## Umbran (Aug 12, 2002)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> *The official status of the Intrepid class is a "light explorer".*




"Official" by whose say?  Trek continuity being what it is, it makes a big difference.  As noted, my quote comes from Startrek.com.   Where's yours from?

Now, for Big Geekishness!

Of course Voyager doesn't have quantum torpedoes.  They were developed in the late 2360's. Voyager was launched in 2371, and got lost in that same year, IIRC.  The Defiant was one of the first ships to carry the things, and it was assigned to DS9 in... 2371.  You don't load uncommon weapons on a ship that's not going to war.

IIRC, at one point in the series, the Voyager runs into an experimental Federation "dreadnaught".  Chakotay mentiones that it'd be easy to scavange the quantum torpedoes.  Suggesting that it's the torpedo itself, and not the firing mechanism, that's important - that doesn't indicate a lack of power in the ship itself.  

All in all, it's important to take the word "powerful" in context of time.  It may well have been one of the tougher pieces of hardware onteh block in 2371.  Don't go comparing it to the Enterprise E, for example, which may be of similar size, but was launched after the Federation had gone through the Dominion War - and it's attendant gains in technology.


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## Tsyr (Aug 12, 2002)

My bad, can't believe I missed the oversight about the dates...

The biggest thing that puzzles me about WHAT voyager is supposed to be is its size. It's dinky. And it's torpedo payload is MINISCULE...  38? Off the top of my head, the Galaxey glass (Which was designed to be an exploration ship, really... it sorta got drafted into the roll of battleship, but that wasn't it's original conception) had nearly 300. 38 would get depleated in one good battle, meaning it's basicly useless in any sort of remote function. Maybe station a couple of them as defense for a station, or a planet near to hostilities, but...


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## LightPhoenix (Aug 12, 2002)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *
> Sisko held off the Founders and the Pah Wraiths...
> *




Sisko didn't beat the Founders alone.  The last military encounter (against the Cardassians) involved the Klingons, Federation, and Romulans.  Also, the Founders were weakened by the virus introduced to them through Odo.

Which reminds me, the episode where Sisko drags the Romulans into the fight was incredible.

*



			This goes on to other genre shows - on B5, a small human crew is responsible for beating the Shadows (and the Vorlons, actually), the Psi Corps, and their own government - all superior forces.
		
Click to expand...


*
They didn't beat the Shadows and Vorlons.  Just like Earth didn't beat the Minbari.

They didn't beat the Psi Corps.  Lyta started the movement against them, and in the end they were reworked to... gah, I forget the name of the organization.

They did win the civil war, keeping in mind they had the White Star fleet (Vorlon and Minbari) and several Human allies.  They most certainly did not do it alone.


----------



## Umbran (Aug 12, 2002)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Sisko didn't beat the Founders alone.  The last military encounter (against the Cardassians) involved the Klingons, Federation, and Romulans.  Also, the Founders were weakened by the virus introduced to them through Odo.
> 
> Which reminds me, the episode where Sisko drags the Romulans into the fight was incredible. *




Yes.  So, who was responsible for having the Klingons, and Romulans there?  IIRC, who wrangled with the Cardassians so well to drinve one of them to the brink of madness, let loose a Pah Wriath, and get the wormhole closed, cutting off the Alpha Quadrant Founders from home?

How many events did that war pivot on that didn't directly invovle Sisko and his crew?  Wins in story arcs are often not single events, but chains of events. 



> *They didn't beat the Psi Corps.  Lyta started the movement against them, and in the end they were reworked to... gah, I forget the name of the organization. *




Lyta did _not_ start the movement.  She inherited it from Byron (who didn't start it either, resistance to the Psi Corps is as old as the Corps - go read the Psi Corp trilogy by J. Gregory Keyes, based on an outline by JMS, it's good stuff!)

She (effectivley part of sheriden's crew, a main character) inherits the movement, because Sheriden had the audacity to allow the telepath colony.  And who does Lyta eventually get the power to defeat the Psi Corps from?  Garibaldi!  The ground troops in that fight may not have been the main characters, but the setup was all them


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## Ranger REG (Aug 12, 2002)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *
> "Official" by whose say?  Trek continuity being what it is, it makes a big difference.  As noted, my quote comes from Startrek.com.   Where's yours from?*



"Light Explorer"? I do know it came from the Last Unicorn Games' _Star Trek_ RPG.

You can dispute it, but you have to remember, Paramount was paying close attention to all licensed material. LUG has to have their material approved before it can go to print.

Personally, I do not have Decipher's _Star Trek_ RPG so I don't know if they kept that designation (especially when almost all of the former LUG staff are now Decipher RPG Studio).

BTW, what part of the StarTrek.com web site did it specifically mentioned that the _Intrepid-_class starship is a scout ship?


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## Eternalknight (Aug 13, 2002)

Going off the Official Start Trek Fact Files, Voyager was, at the time of its launch, the most advanced research and exploraton vessel in the fleet.  It was also designed with the Borg in mind.  It had great manuverabiltiy.  It had a crew capacity of 150.

I agree they had to do something with the Borg and introduce a new threat.  For me, the Borg were already getting stale after First Contact.  Voyager also introduced the Federation Timeships, which I think Enterprise has latched on to in a way.  In my opinion, I think lerning about the 21st century is a Good Thing.


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## Storm Raven (Aug 13, 2002)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *She (effectivley part of sheriden's crew, a main character) inherits the movement, because Sheriden had the audacity to allow the telepath colony.  And who does Lyta eventually get the power to defeat the Psi Corps from?  Garibaldi!  The ground troops in that fight may not have been the main characters, but the setup was all them  *




Yeah, the fact that the _Vorlons_ genetically altered her into a telepathic nuclear weapon was of no consequence.


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## Umbran (Aug 13, 2002)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *
> "Light Explorer"? I do know it came from the Last Unicorn Games' Star Trek RPG.
> 
> You can dispute it, but you have to remember, Paramount was paying close attention to all licensed material. LUG has to have their material approved before it can go to print.*




*shrug*.  Well, even the "tech manual" line of books has been seen to have a great number of inconsistencies with what's actually seen in the show. It's hard to figure what's "acurate" for the Star Trek universe.  Given Universal's lack of commitment to developing a solid body of canon information, I suppose RPG data is about as reliable as web-site data designed for only moderately geeky folks.  



> *
> BTW, what part of the StarTrek.com web site did it specifically mentioned that the Intrepid-class starship is a scout ship? *




My point is that it _doesn't_ call it a scout ship, light or otherwise.  They call it "one of the most powerful ships in starfleet".  

Eternal Knight:
Um, where are those "official fact files"?  Because they also conflict with the Startrek.com take on the Voyager (same link as before).  They say it has a crew capacity of 200.  They quote the show in mentioning that at one point her crew dropped to 152, and Chakotay was a bit concerned, as they probalby couldn't run the ship with fewer than 100.  I vaguely remember seeing that in an episode.

Btw, does anyone else likethe irony of taking a "Voyager hate" thread and turning it into a "Voyager geek" thread?


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## JacktheRabbit (Aug 13, 2002)

The one thing that always bugged me is how much raw structural damage you see Voyager take time and time again and yet you have never even once seen anyone out in a space suit making repairs or welding reinforcement plates onto the outer hull.

For that matter how do they keep repairing the hull? Can the replicators create the super dense hull plating?


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## Tsyr (Aug 13, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *The one thing that always bugged me is how much raw structural damage you see Voyager take time and time again and yet you have never even once seen anyone out in a space suit making repairs or welding reinforcement plates onto the outer hull.
> 
> For that matter how do they keep repairing the hull? Can the replicators create the super dense hull plating? *




Somehow, I doubt it... which means Voyager must give its secrets out to every planet it comes across, in order to make repairs 

I seem to recall in one of the Tech Manual books that many parts of a starship couldn't be replicated... But then, I've also heard that there is only ONE thing that cant be replicated... so who knows...


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## JacktheRabbit (Aug 13, 2002)

Also if you do some simple math you must realize that even if Voyager carried over 100 torps she has long since expended them.


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## Furn_Darkside (Aug 13, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *Also if you do some simple math you must realize that even if Voyager carried over 100 torps she has long since expended them. *




7o9 just had "nanotechnology" build more. haha.

In the first two series, wasn't it the deflector dish that was the mysterious ship part that was able to be tuned to do everything and anything?

Voyager had nano machines. (and time travel... every other episode...)

FD


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## Tsyr (Aug 13, 2002)

Furn_Darkside said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 7o9 just had "nanotechnology" build more. haha.
> 
> ...




Long live the Deflector Dish... It's a running joke on a lot of Bridge Commander message boards that you should just make a ship with a bridge, warp core, and a deflector dish... everyting else, from weapons, to shields, to propulshion, to food, to waste disposal, to time travel, to sensors, to bringing the dead back to life can be done via the deflector dish.


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## Ranger REG (Aug 13, 2002)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *
> Actually, in The Doomsday Weapon, the only assistance Captain Decker lent was to suicide in such a manner that inspired Kirk.*



Actually that was Commodore Matt Decker. Captain Willard Decker (the adult son of the late Commodore) appeared in _The Motion Picture._

And yes, the shuttlecraft explosion gave Kirk the idea to use a large starship (i.e., USS Constellation) which would cause greater damage to the weakest spot of the Doomsday Machine, its belly inside.


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## Ranger REG (Aug 13, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *
> Also if you do some simple math you must realize that even if Voyager carried over 100 torps she has long since expended them. *



I believe we have arrived at a point in time in which a starship like _Voyager_ can manufacture their own torpedo once they got the raw resources.

IOW, I would not be surprised if they have an industrial-sized replicator for ship assemblies, torpedo assemblies, and shuttlecraft parts (and you know the running joke about _Voyager_ losing too many shuttlecrafts).   

Pho-Torp is useful but getting to be obsolete. Quantum Torpedo (what new starships like _Enteprise-E_ have) is the latest in FTL missile weapon technology.


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## Eternalknight (Aug 14, 2002)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *
> Eternal Knight:
> Um, where are those "official fact files"?  Because they also conflict with the Startrek.com take on the Voyager (same link as before).  They say it has a crew capacity of 200.  They quote the show in mentioning that at one point her crew dropped to 152, and Chakotay was a bit concerned, as they probalby couldn't run the ship with fewer than 100.  I vaguely remember seeing that in an episode.
> *




The Official Fact Files were released in Australia by Paramount in 1996 as a weekly publication.  It is sort of like a giant encyclopedia, and you get little bits of it every week that you put into a folder.  The Fact Files are still running, though I have heard they are almost finished.  They contain A LOT of information on the Trek universe, more than anyone could ever want to know.  If I remember rightly, during the last season they mentined they had a crew of 133 or something....  who knows?


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## Tsyr (Aug 14, 2002)

The problem, as someone else mentioned, is that there is no "right" source for Star Trek data. Every official source conflicts with every other official source, or so it seems. Sometimes within the same product (The TNG Technical Manual is a shocking example of this). 

Generaly, the best place to get information is message boards, IMHO. The "public consensus" at a good, true, geeky star trek message board generaly tend to be an average of official sources, sometimes with facts no one ever pulled from official sources... One of the more infamous examples of the latter is that a ship (I forget which one) was said to have a certain number of phaser banks... but visual inspection showed that in fact it only had another number. Or the case where the official DS9 tech manual had the Defient being something near to 200 meters long, when it's really just a fraction of that.


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## Henry (Aug 14, 2002)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> *I think, Umbran, I'm mostly just sore over what Voyager did to the borg... The borg, dangitall, were supposed to be FRIGHTENING.*




Borg? Sounds Swedish.


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## Ranger REG (Aug 15, 2002)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *
> *shrug*.  Well, even the "tech manual" line of books has been seen to have a great number of inconsistencies with what's actually seen in the show. It's hard to figure what's "acurate" for the Star Trek universe.  Given Universal's lack of commitment to developing a solid body of canon information, I suppose RPG data is about as reliable as web-site data designed for only moderately geeky folks.*



It's Paramount, not Universal.

They used to ... until Berman & Braga came along. Now they just discarded continuity.




> *My point is that it doesn't call it a scout ship, light or otherwise.  They call it "one of the most powerful ships in starfleet".*



In a way it is. But it doesn't have the latest technology that _Enterprise-E_ has, most especially the Quantum Torpedo ordnance.

Design-wise, I personally like it. It is sleek with an arrowhead-shaped primary hull that looks like it is moving fast, even when it is stationary. It is also capable of atmospheric flight and planetside landing, too. But this is a small starship, about the same scale as the original _Enterprise,_ and we've come a long way from the 23rd to late 24th Century.


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## Umbran (Aug 15, 2002)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *They used to ... until Berman & Braga came along. Now they just discarded continuity.*




I hate to interrupt your B&B bashing, but that's not true.  Roddenberry wasn't exaclty a continuity god either. Or do the words "Organian Peace Treaty" mean nothing to you?  Or the fact that the original Star Fleet Tech Manual has Starfleet HQ and Academy on a starbase, rather than in San Fransisco?


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## Tsyr (Aug 15, 2002)

LOL. Gods alive that book is funny sometimes. I have that manual, actualy... bought, believe it or not, for the uniform designs... But man is that a screwed up book. 

One of the worst continuity breaks in the "cannon" star trek history is Zepheram Cochrane... In the TNG/Movie universe, he comes from post-WWIII earth... in the original storyline, he was from Alpha Centauri, where humans happened to venture first without warp drive.


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## Mallus (Aug 15, 2002)

*A few thoughts...*

To restate the obvious: 

People dislike Voyager because it was dull. Genuine idea-heavy sci-fi extrapolations and musing were replaced by the dreaded technobabble. A situation which seemed at first to be rife with conflict and tension,  was reduced to level of an office at a small tech company. No, I take that back. Most small tech firm offices positively seethe with human drama compared to Voyager. The writers on Voyager deplyed a facinating array of techniques apparently designed to strip the drama out of every script. Hobbling the Borg pales in comparion to how they flattened the emotional lives of the regular players. Only the computer-generated hologram had any spark; and the scripts continually had to punish him for aspiring to be more than the uber-future office drone that every other sentient being on the ship was. Voyager was the first sci-fi show I've ever seen with a sentient AI --who passes the Turing Test with flying colors-- which argued, for a while in favor of treating him as a non-person.


N


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## Chimera (Aug 16, 2002)

One of the most serious problems Voyager had from a Writing stand-point was that they would expend large amounts of episode time on useless or pointless stuff, then hurriedly wrap up the episode in the last 30 seconds.

"The 37's" (with Amelia Erhart) is always my primary example, but almost any ep from the last season will do as well.  In that episode, they spent a bunch of time being held at gunpoint by one Japanese soldier (I kept screaming "just take it away from him!"), then had an irritating "and they took us back to their city and we got to know their civilization" Captain's Log ending.

But my most serious problem with Voyager was Janeway.  I absolutely hated that character because of the way it was written.  It changed every week and she was just flipping insane.


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## Ranger REG (Aug 16, 2002)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *
> I hate to interrupt your B&B bashing, but that's not true.  Roddenberry wasn't exaclty a continuity god either. Or do the words "Organian Peace Treaty" mean nothing to you?  Or the fact that the original Star Fleet Tech Manual has Starfleet HQ and Academy on a starbase, rather than in San Fransisco?   *



What about it? The Organians were right. Eventually, the Federation and the Klingon will find peace, despite the lack of enforcing the said peace treaty.


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## reapersaurus (Aug 21, 2002)

Here's the thoughts from someone who literally couldn't watch many episodes of Voyager:

Voyager's first strike for me was the first episode.
As I remember, the entire premise why they got flung into this unknown quadrant was because they were STUPID, and made a bad decision.

So I got no sympathy for their plight from the beginning.

Other problems in the eps i tried to stick it out for:
Major changes being glossed over.
Techno-babble substituing for science.
Janeway - yep, she was frustrating to watch, and never should have been in charge.
Boring  -I could not make myself sit thru a whole episode. There was absolutely zero drama, or tension to the episodes, unlike DS9 or TNG or TOS. No reason to come back from the commercial.


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## Ranger REG (Aug 22, 2002)

Actually, I enjoyed the _Voyager's_ first episode. Besides, how could they know beforehand to avoid getting transported to the next quadrant?

I just didn't enjoy when Braga took over as the show's executive producer. There were a handful of good episodes out of the 4 season he took over.


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## Staffan (Aug 22, 2002)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *Actually, I enjoyed the Voyager's first episode. Besides, how could they know beforehand to avoid getting transported to the next quadrant?
> *



I believe the stupid decision referred to was to blow the array up rather than use it to go home. The *smart* decision would have been to modify a few proton torpedoes to work as time bombs, send themselves home with the array and then the bombs do their dirty work.


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## LightPhoenix (Aug 22, 2002)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Yes.  So, who was responsible for having the Klingons, and Romulans there?  IIRC, who wrangled with the Cardassians so well to drinve one of them to the brink of madness, let loose a Pah Wriath, and get the wormhole closed, cutting off the Alpha Quadrant Founders from home?
> 
> ...




The Founders advanced into the Alpha Quadrant without Sisko doing a damn thing.  They were subsequently poisoned without Sisko's knowledge, which effectively won the war right there.

Sisko helped to bring together everyone (and it wasn't solely by himself in either case), but Sisko didn't fight every battle alone.  By this logic, you may as well say Sisko's mother is the savior of the Federation, because she gave birth to him.



> *
> Lyta did not start the movement.  She inherited it from Byron (who didn't start it either, resistance to the Psi Corps is as old as the Corps - go read the Psi Corp trilogy by J. Gregory Keyes, based on an outline by JMS, it's good stuff!)
> 
> She (effectivley part of sheriden's crew, a main character) inherits the movement, because Sheriden had the audacity to allow the telepath colony.  And who does Lyta eventually get the power to defeat the Psi Corps from?  Garibaldi!  The ground troops in that fight may not have been the main characters, but the setup was all them  *




I have read it.  Before Lyta, the resistance was nothing but a fly on a horse's back.  Lyta obtained money, Lyta organized everyone, Lyta had power to resist the Psi Corps, and she _won_.  Compare to Byron, who pretty much ticked everyone off, and killed himself.

Lyta all but forced Garibaldi into helping her. 

And if you're going to claim Sheridan started the Telepath War, then hell, you might as well say everyone did.  Sinclair left, the Black Star captain fell for Sheridan's trick, the Minbari spared Earth, the Babylon project was started... on and on you could go, the fact is that Lyta is the direct cause of the Telepath War, NOT Sheridan, and not anyone else.


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## Ranger REG (Aug 22, 2002)

Staffan said:
			
		

> *
> I believe the stupid decision referred to was to blow the array up rather than use it to go home. The *smart* decision would have been to modify a few proton torpedoes to work as time bombs, send themselves home with the array and then the bombs do their dirty work. *



And if the time bomb did not completely destroy the Caretaker's Array, _Voyager_ will be bringing home the Kazons, and they'll keep coming.

They stayed to make sure the job is done right, and that was the premise for the show, to get stuck on the other side of the galaxy.


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## JacktheRabbit (Aug 22, 2002)

So load the array up with a load of explosives and find a couple members of the crew willing to make the ultimate sacrifice. Leave those two crewmen in a shuttle with a remote detonator and then get the hell out of dodge.




			
				Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *
> And if the time bomb did not completely destroy the Caretaker's Array, Voyager will be bringing home the Kazons, and they'll keep coming.
> 
> They stayed to make sure the job is done right, and that was the premise for the show, to get stuck on the other side of the galaxy. *


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## Staffan (Aug 22, 2002)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *
> And if the time bomb did not completely destroy the Caretaker's Array, Voyager will be bringing home the Kazons, and they'll keep coming.
> 
> They stayed to make sure the job is done right, and that was the premise for the show, to get stuck on the other side of the galaxy. *



The Kazons couldn't defeat Voyager by itself, so there's no *way* they'd pose a credible threat to the federation. And like Doc said, load the array with *enough* explosives, and it *will* be destroyed.

The only reason Voyager stayed behind in the Delta Quadrant was the needs of the story, and I find that a rather weak rationale unless backed up by "in-character" reasons.


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## Ranger REG (Aug 23, 2002)

Actually, they could if they outnumber the one little ship.

And I honestly don't think that Janeway is going to leave someone behind to make sure the job is done, after her mission is to retrieve Tuvok and Chakotay's Maquis cell. Even Kirk would not have done that. Why do you think that Mr. Spock snuck out of the bridge while everyone is affixed on the mainscreen in _TWOK_?

(What am I doing? I'm defending _VOYAGER_? Oh well, I did say I like the first three seasons before Braga took over.)


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## JacktheRabbit (Aug 23, 2002)

Why?

You have to ask why?

It is simpl. Spock logically knew there was a huge time constraint that would not work well with an arguement with emotional humans. So he acted quickly in the most logical manner to save the ship.

On the other hand I don't remember Janeway being under the same constraint. The biggest local Kazon ship was nuked so there was no immediate threat.

Also if Janeway couldnt trust someone else to do the job right then the dumb broad should have stayed behind herself. Stranding her entire crew in the Delta Quadrant shows how weakl her command skills really are.




			
				Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *Actually, they could if they outnumber the one little ship.
> 
> And I honestly don't think that Janeway is going to leave someone behind to make sure the job is done, after her mission is to retrieve Tuvok and Chakotay's Maquis cell. Even Kirk would not have done that. Why do you think that Mr. Spock snuck out of the bridge while everyone is affixed on the mainscreen in TWOK?
> 
> (What am I doing? I'm defending VOYAGER? Oh well, I did say I like the first three seasons before Braga took over.) *


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## Ranger REG (Aug 23, 2002)

IIRC, the Kazons had reinforcement coming.


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## reapersaurus (Aug 24, 2002)

I'm glad my casual Trek observation is shared by those more in the know than I.

It was an actual DECISION she made to strand the ship there, without exploring the obvious options?

I remembered it was just a bad call, but that borders on lunacy.
Certainly not a very inventive decision, and it smacks of....  "2-Dimensional Thinking".  

P.S. Ya, a delayed-timer explosive set for 5 seconds after they get out of there is beyond the technology or capability of the Star Trek universe.


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## Tsyr (Aug 24, 2002)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *I'm glad my casual Trek observation is shared by those more in the know than I.
> 
> It was an actual DECISION she made to strand the ship there, without exploring the obvious options?
> 
> ...




Heck, no need to even get that sophisticated... just fire a full volly of photon torpedos a half second before you jump out.


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## Ranger REG (Aug 25, 2002)

You're going to trust an alien device's function to work exactly as it should, fire a volley as a Kazon reinforcement approaching, and then "jump" out without realizing if you completely destroy the device?


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## Tsyr (Aug 25, 2002)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *You're going to trust an alien device's function to work exactly as it should, fire a volley as a Kazon reinforcement approaching, and then "jump" out without realizing if you completely destroy the device? *




As opposed to strand the crews whos lives are my personal responsibility and (as far as she knew) doom them to never see their home or family again? Yes. At least it's a shot.


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## Ranger REG (Aug 25, 2002)

It's starfleet duty to secure the defense of the Federation. If that device falls into enemy hands, then the Alpha Quadrant and the Federation would be threatened by the enemy who can "transport" anywhere inside the territory.

To shirk that duty for the sole purpose of coming home would be inexcusable (not to mention would screw the whole premise of the show).


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## reapersaurus (Aug 25, 2002)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *It's starfleet duty to secure the defense of the Federation. If that device falls into enemy hands, then the Alpha Quadrant and the Federation would be threatened by the enemy who can "transport" anywhere inside the territory.*



IF, IF, IF!

So you're professionals: make sure it doesn't fall into the wrong hands, and don't shoot yourself in the head while doing so.

They have robots, A.I., intelligent holograms, and enough explosives to waste a county, and they couldn't have found a better way that slamming the door shut on themselves?

I'm just a casual viewer, but there was nothing I remember from watching the show that justified that extreme of solution.

Don't justify or make something up that wasn't in the script.
It was just plain BAD WRITING, and the only reason for it to have happened is that _there wouldn't have been a Voyager series if it hadn't have._

Pretty pathetic.  (IMCasualO)


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## Holy Bovine (Aug 25, 2002)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *You're going to trust an alien device's function to work exactly as it should, fire a volley as a Kazon reinforcement approaching, and then "jump" out without realizing if you completely destroy the device? *




How about they go through the device back to the Alpha Quadrant, then send every photon torpedo they have armed to explode in 20 seconds back through the array's transport beam (or whatever the hell it was).  38 photon torpedoes _should_ be enough to blow the crap out of that thing.

And if the Kazon's keep coming so what?  They're in the middle of the Badlands!  Not a great spot to launch a war from!

Gaahhh!  There is soooo much wrong with Voyager that it boggles the mind.


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## Ranger REG (Aug 25, 2002)

It doesn't seem to operate like a wormhole, more like a transporter. And I doubt the Caretaker who used it is fixed on that location. It can "transport" to/from any location. As I said, if it falls in the wrong hand, someone could use it to transport behind enemy line and hit them unexpectedly.


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## JacktheRabbit (Aug 26, 2002)

There is zero information to support that theory. The only ships taken came from that exact spot. Till proof otherwise comes along the only place it can go is that spot.

BTW, you are afraid the Kazon are going to use it to attackt he Federation? The Kazon are so stupid that even with a Cardassion helping them they were unable to create a replicator. I doubt you have to worry about the Kazon's doing anything with whatever remains of the array after you leave a dozen time delayed photon torps to nail it after you go home.




			
				Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *It doesn't seem to operate like a wormhole, more like a transporter. And I doubt the Caretaker who used it is fixed on that location. It can "transport" to/from any location. As I said, if it falls in the wrong hand, someone could use it to transport behind enemy line and hit them unexpectedly. *


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## Napftor (Aug 26, 2002)

While I don't have anything to add to the caretaker discussion, I'd like to point out that Voyager gave us the Vidiians.  They weren't for everyone, perhaps, but i thought they were the best new enemy to come down the pike since the Borg.  Those merciless organ harvesters always made for a good episode.  Even the "Spock's Brain"ish one where Neelix's lungs were stolen.

One of the best eps that show had was actually written by Braga.  It was when Voyager flew through some anomaly and was duplicated.  While one ship was pulverized by the other for power needs, the intact one was grappled and boarded by Viddians!  Seeing the harvesters zapping people and having their way was quite exciting.  And then the shocker was the near-dead Voyager surviving.  But, as others have pointed out, the continuity police were never around so it was back to business as usual with no damage and no further mention of the "other" Harry Kim on board.

"Weird is part of the job" indeed.


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## Ferret (Aug 26, 2002)

I liked it, it was my favourite out of them I really dislike DS9 And the original I like the latter of the Nxtgen serieses


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## Ranger REG (Aug 27, 2002)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *
> There is zero information to support that theory. The only ships taken came from that exact spot. Till proof otherwise comes along the only place it can go is that spot.
> 
> BTW, you are afraid the Kazon are going to use it to attackt he Federation? The Kazon are so stupid that even with a Cardassion helping them they were unable to create a replicator. I doubt you have to worry about the Kazon's doing anything with whatever remains of the array after you leave a dozen time delayed photon torps to nail it after you go home.*



Heh. That's what Q said about us "child-like savage species" but we managed well.  

Never underestimate such species whose ambition is to conquer.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 27, 2002)

At the beginning, the Voyager Crew didn`t know much about potential threats in the Quadrant, but they had to assume that the Kazon-Ogla was not the only one (and did they now that the Kazon where so incompetent beeings?) ... And imagine what species like Borg (who where probably assumed to be somewhere in the Quadrant) or a race like the Vidiians could have done with the technology aboard the base...

And there were also the Ocampa, who would have been enslaved by the Kazon if they managed to get control of the base. 

The lack of consistence in the series is still one of the weakest spots, I think...

Mustrum Ridcully


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## KnowTheToe (Sep 7, 2002)

There are so many good examples of why it was a weak show.  We are a nit picky bunch, aren't we.

I did not really watch it until it ran reruns early morning.  At first I really liked it, but the more I was exposed the more the above mentioned flaws bothered me.  

I alway wondered why there were so many episodes about 7 of 9, I guess a little something on the side never hurt anyones career.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 7, 2002)

KnowTheToe said:
			
		

> *
> I alway wondered why there were so many episodes about 7 of 9, I guess a little something on the side never hurt anyones career. *



Because then newly-divorced Jeri Ryan ("Seven of Nine") has been sleeping in Brannon Braga's bed. IOW, they're an item even to this day. It may not hurt Jeri's career, but it did affect the show's performance and the original cast members.

Season 5 has been unofficially dubbed "The Seven of Nine Show."


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## Khorod (Sep 7, 2002)

Every time they had a good episode, they highlighted the theme and repeatedly beat it to death.  Each show might be good, but ...

Also, while it started out okay, the whole Maki/Federation thing was drained dry.  CHakotay was supposed to be a cunning, cagey, elusive captain of a dangerous terrorist group.

He became an unimaginative, straightforward thinker.  That is symptomatic of the whole series.

And the final episode was such a HUGE COP OUT that despite having tried to watch most of the series regularly, I have a much poor opinion of it now.


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## BeanFruit (Sep 9, 2002)

I enjoyed Voyager but did find it annoying that almost anything could be solved with a bit of technobabble. Too many stories could have been better if they weren't simply solved by some modification to this or that.

Also Harry and his women problems were annoying.

BUT, I found that if I only watched an episode every two to four weeks then I'd largely forget that between episodes and could therefore still enjoy each for what it was.

My main problem is that I found Captain Janeway to be far to principled. Sometimes I was just hoping they'd have an episode where Voyager would blast some innocent colony with torpedos just to resotre my faith in the dark side of humanity


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## Ranger REG (Sep 9, 2002)

I don't recall Kirk or Picard would do something like that. If they do, it's probably because they care about their friends more, like Kirk saving Spock on the Genesis planet.


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## Khorod (Sep 9, 2002)

The problem was not that Janeway was principled, but that she would belabor the point for half the episode.  Then for the other half, she would relentlessly and ruthelessly find some way of solving the problem.  And never did the innocents die...

I found long breaks between episode often helped.  But sometimes, a bad episode in a vaccuum makes you wonder why you ever watch it.  I've decided to like DS9 more.  It was at least advancing some plots, and more often than not, added depth to characters instead of draining them of life.


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## BeanFruit (Sep 9, 2002)

That's a good point which I agree with. But even after she made her decision she would (almost?) always go the way of maximum virtue. She would never take a messy approach or a decision that would advance her crew but that might harm others.

It just seemed to pure and perfect for me. Still liked it, but liked the grey areas of TNG, TOS and DS9 more. I really enjoy Enterprise as well. Poor Voyager!


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## Ranger REG (Sep 9, 2002)

Of course, she would prefer to avoid the messy approach to resolving a problem. She was a science officer who once served under Tom Paris' father on _USS Al-Batani._


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## Khorod (Sep 10, 2002)

By the second season Tom Paris was the series hotshot/badboy.


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