# [Adventurer's Vault] Problematic Items



## SableWyvern (Sep 18, 2008)

*Orb of Impenetrable Escape and Orb of Mental Domination*
Two issues with these.
1. They stack with what many already consider a broken power (Wizard Orb Mastery)
2. They represent objective power creep -- they're equivalent to the same level Orbs from the PHB, with extra abilities that have no drawback. This is in contrast to most level 6/11/16/21/26 level items, and the new armours, which either trade one benefit for another, or they offer a benefit that comes at a cost.

*Antipathy Gloves*
Only the level 10 version is described.

*Potion of Accuracy*
I can see what they're attempting to do here, and it makes sense, but the implementation seems all wrong.

The level 8 version gives +1 to a level 8 or 9 character, and nothing to a higher level one.
The level 13 version gives +2 at level 13, +1 at levels 14 nd 15, nothing thereafter.
The level 18 version gives +1 at levels 18 and 19, nothing thereafter.
Etc...

There is a window of 2-3 levels at a time where brewing such a potion has benefits, and then a 2-3 level wait until it becomes worthwhile again.

Would it be unbalanced to change it so that they provide the following:

Level 8: 7 - 1/2 level
Level 13: 9 - 1/2 level
Level 18: 12 - 1/2 level
Level 23: 14 - 1/2 level
Level 28: 16 - 1/2 level

With this progression, the potions initially give +3, dwindling to +1 as the next potion becomes available. I don't think the +3 is unbalancing, but DMs would want to be more careful about handing out higher level versions.l


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 18, 2008)

The Potion seem to be a little... clunky. Maybe it would be easier if they just gave an enhancement bonus to attack, thus would be automatically becoming less useful at certain level intervals? A 12th level potion might grant a +4 enhancement bonus. Once a adventurer gets his +4 weapon, it's useless, but before that, it grants a +1 bonus...


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## SableWyvern (Sep 18, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> The Potion seem to be a little... clunky. Maybe it would be easier if they just gave an enhancement bonus to attack, thus would be automatically becoming less useful at certain level intervals? A 12th level potion might grant a +4 enhancement bonus. Once a adventurer gets his +4 weapon, it's useless, but before that, it grants a +1 bonus...




Actually, I like that idea a lot. Give it a bonus one higher than the expected equipment bonus for that level. Simple to implement and maintains the same bonus in normal situations as the potion-as-written seems to be attempting to provide (that being +1). This also makes it especially handy for two-weapon combatants, clerics, paladins etc.. who can't maintain the expected enhancement bonus on two weapons/implements.

Level 8 +3
Level 13 +4
Level 18 +5
Level 23 +6
Level 28 +7


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## Runestar (Sep 18, 2008)

> *Orb of Impenetrable Escape and Orb of Mental Domination*
> Two issues with these.
> 1. They stack with what many already consider a broken power (Wizard Orb Mastery)



...So what? Is Orcus now going to be taking a -16 to his save? Which means that even a solo can now be 100% locked down by a status effect power like sleep or legion's hold? 

Just curious, does that ring of tenacious will together with that dragon background which lets you use cha to determine starting hp mean that con is effectively now a dump stat, especially for classes like the warlord or paladin which tend to pump both str/cha?

From the CO boards, it seems that ritualist ring may be problematic as well, since it lets you halve item creation costs, hence allowing your party to access more eq than what their wealth guidelines suggest. Probably not as big a problem in 4e compared to 3e, but may still be something worth watching.


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## James McMurray (Sep 18, 2008)

What do the orbs do?


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## ki11erDM (Sep 18, 2008)

One item I noticed last night was the prismatic robe.  To say it sucked would be an understatement.  Was a level 14ish item that gave a -2 to a single attacker until the end of your next round.  And that went off only have you had been hit by that creature.  Other than that I have not found anything I thought was truly odd but only about 30 pages into it.


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## Runestar (Sep 18, 2008)

James McMurray said:


> What do the orbs do?




Just what we need apparently - a chance to inflict yet another penalty to a foe's saving throws...


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## salander (Sep 18, 2008)

_double post_


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## MrMyth (Sep 18, 2008)

SableWyvern said:


> *Orb of Impenetrable Escape and Orb of Mental Domination*
> Two issues with these.
> 1. They stack with what many already consider a broken power (Wizard Orb Mastery)
> 2. They represent objective power creep -- they're equivalent to the same level Orbs from the PHB, with extra abilities that have no drawback. This is in contrast to most level 6/11/16/21/26 level items, and the new armours, which either trade one benefit for another, or they offer a benefit that comes at a cost.




As far as (1), the issue there is really the Wizard Orb Mastery more than these. But (2) bothered me - especially since they did a similar things for weapons, but actually did it properly - level 6/11/16/etc items that had a power did have a downside, by removing the bonus damage on a critical. That seems a reasonable trade-off. 

For the powers in these orbs, even if they don't consider them strong enough to completely remove the crit bonus, drop it to +1d4 - that would seem reasonable to me. Same goes for the one or two weapons in the same situation (like the Sacrificial Weapon).

They also have two armors that fall into this power creep category, but I'm not bothered by them: one armor you can summon, and one you can disguise as normal clothes. Both have always felt like cool abilities rarely worth the cost, so saying that anyone with basic magic items can choose from those abilities seems reasonable to me.


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## salander (Sep 18, 2008)

*Belt of Vim (lvl 18) vs Girdle of the Dragon (lvl 16)*

*Belt of Vim [p.164]
*Lvl 18 85,000 gp
Property: Level 18: +2 bonus to Fortitude defense.*

Girdle of the Dragon [p.165]
*Lvl 16 45,000 gp
Property: Gain a +2 bonus to Fortitude defense. 
Power (Daily): Standard Action. Make two attack rolls: Melee 1; Strength + 3 vs. AC; on a hit, the target takes
3d6 + Strength modifier damage. If both attacks hit the same target, the target is grabbed (until escape).


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## ExploderWizard (Sep 18, 2008)

salander said:


> *Belt of Vim [p.164]*
> Lvl 18 85,000 gp
> Property: Level 18: +2 bonus to Fortitude defense.
> 
> ...




ROFL I'll take the Dragon girdle for 45K please, I hope they aren't sold out.


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## mlangsdorf (Sep 18, 2008)

I note with some amusement that Immovable Rods have returned, because they never caused any issues in 3rd edition.  You can still float a castle on the silly things.


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## doctorhook (Sep 18, 2008)

salander said:


> *Belt of Vim [p.164]
> *Lvl 18 85,000 gp
> Property: Level 18: +2 bonus to Fortitude defense.*
> 
> ...



 Are those static defense bonuses on minor magical items? Wasn't this sort of thing specifically condemned in the Design & Development 4E previews?


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## Jack99 (Sep 18, 2008)

doctorhook said:


> Are those static defense bonuses on minor magical items? Wasn't this sort of thing specifically condemned in the Design & Development 4E previews?




Aye, could have sworn we were told that bonuses to AC and Defenses were reserved for Amor and neck slot..


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## Griogre (Sep 18, 2008)

Some Freelancer didn't get the memo or they needed X items to fill the book.  Or they figured they needed broken items to sell the spat book.  Take your pick.


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## Starbuck_II (Sep 18, 2008)

doctorhook said:


> Are those static defense bonuses on minor magical items? Wasn't this sort of thing specifically condemned in the Design & Development 4E previews?



It wouldn't be so bad if the girdle of Dragon was a feat or power bonus and the Belt was a non-typed.

That would explain why belt is higher level. That may be my first houserule for 4th.


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## Mengu (Sep 18, 2008)

This seems bad. Are there reviews of this book anywhere yet? I was looking forward to more items I could drop into my game, but based on these spoilers, I might just be better off creating my own.


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## Crothian (Sep 18, 2008)

Mengu said:


> This seems bad. Are there reviews of this book anywhere yet? I was looking forward to more items I could drop into my game, but based on these spoilers, I might just be better off creating my own.




I'm working on a review.  In a book of this size with so many items there is going to be some that are too good, some that suck, and some that don';t make sense.  Some will break the rules but it seems from my initial look through that most of the things here are pretty good.


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## SableWyvern (Sep 18, 2008)

Yeah, while there are some annoying items that really stand out, I'm mostly happy with the book.


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## Mezzer (Sep 19, 2008)

Mengu said:


> This seems bad. Are there reviews of this book anywhere yet? I was looking forward to more items I could drop into my game, but based on these spoilers, I might just be better off creating my own.



You sure picked a great thread to decide if you want the book or not; a thread which is supposed to point out bad items or items that need errata. 

Personally, I think the book is awesome, and well worth buying. Unlike say the MIC of ye olde 3.x days, I can see quite a few different items actually getting used, and very few that would stand out as 'must have' for any class really. A welcome change, if you ask me.

I did notice one that needed errata, but can't, for the life of me, remember which one. It had a level inconsistency in the description. :/


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## keterys (Sep 19, 2008)

So far I'm pretty happy with the purchase and I'll be using a lot of things...

but I am definitely unhappy at certain lines that have been crossed. I'd also like to see a rule that save penalties never, ever stack. Ever. Including for spell focus and orb of imposition.


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## Mengu (Sep 19, 2008)

Mezzer said:


> You sure picked a great thread to decide if you want the book or not; a thread which is supposed to point out bad items or items that need errata.




Sorry, I haven't really made a decission, that's why I was asking for reviews that I could read before I go flip through it at the store tonight.


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## baberg (Sep 19, 2008)

SableWyvern said:


> Level 8 +3
> Level 13 +4
> Level 18 +5
> Level 23 +6
> Level 28 +7




I think that's exactly what Wizards didn't want to do, and why the math seems "clunky" for the Elixir of Accuracy.  They don't want a straight-out bonus for a level 8 item which can be applied all the way to level 30.  125gp is a pittance at level 30 and for a +3 to my hit?  You bet I'd be making and drinking these things like it was candy.

By implementing it as "X - 1/2 level" they will run out of usefulness and thus the PCs will be seeking the next highest level of potion.  And remember, player level doesn't equal item level.  You can start handing these out to your PCs at level 4 if you wanted, as part of the treasure parcel, giving +3 to hit.


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## Runestar (Sep 19, 2008)

What was wrong with MIC? I felt it was a great book as well.


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## Zelc (Sep 19, 2008)

baberg said:


> I think that's exactly what Wizards didn't want to do, and why the math seems "clunky" for the Elixir of Accuracy.  They don't want a straight-out bonus for a level 8 item which can be applied all the way to level 30.  125gp is a pittance at level 30 and for a +3 to my hit?  You bet I'd be making and drinking these things like it was candy.



Enhancement bonuses don't stack.


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## gribble (Sep 19, 2008)

baberg said:


> 125gp is a pittance at level 30 and for a +3 to my hit?  You bet I'd be making and drinking these things like it was candy.




I don't understand what you're saying here... the +3 proposed by Mustrum_Ridcully would be an enhancement bonus, so wouldn't stack with the enhancement bonus of any weapons you're carrying. At level 30, I'd expect (in fact the system pretty much *requires*) that the enhancement bonus of your weapons is greater than +3, so your character wouldn't get any benefit from it...

I like the proposal - it's a lot more elegant than the version in the book, and seems to achieve the same result.


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## SableWyvern (Sep 19, 2008)

baberg said:


> I think that's exactly what Wizards didn't want to do, and why the math seems "clunky" for the Elixir of Accuracy.  They don't want a straight-out bonus for a level 8 item which can be applied all the way to level 30.  125gp is a pittance at level 30 and for a +3 to my hit?  You bet I'd be making and drinking these things like it was candy.




As others have pointed out, I was referring to enhancement bonuses that won't stack with weapon enhancements. I didn't explicitly state that, but if you look at the quoted text in my post, you'll see Mustrum Ridcully mentions enhancement bonuses, and that's what I was responding to.


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## Falling Icicle (Sep 19, 2008)

Bracers of Archery - give a bonus to all ranged attacks. 

I thought these kind of items were totally against 4e's design philosophy (hence the reasons gauntlets of ogre power only grant extra damage once per day).


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## evilgeniusx (Sep 19, 2008)

*ring of feather fall*

why is a ring of feather fall 14th level when feather fall is a lvl 2 daily power?
seems kind of out of whack don tyou think? 

then there's this: winged boots are level 13,  and they are feather fall + fly (daily)....

i know all rings are level 14 minimum but this makes no sense


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## evilgeniusx (Sep 19, 2008)

*bronze griffin*

also, all of the figurines of wondrous power made the conversion except my favorite...the bronze griffin! 
if not the bronze griffin, then at least give me a bronze hippogriff!
level 9 sound about right?


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## That One Guy (Sep 19, 2008)

Is Rapid Strike Bracers (Free) + Gauntlets of Blinding Strikes (Standard) + Dual Strike over powered? I mean, it's four attacks at -2 each once a day.

In general, I like the book. A few things seem broken and I did see some stuff that was in need of errata, but over all I liked the book.


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## Engilbrand (Sep 19, 2008)

I'll have to look at some of these. If my players want them, I'll probably allow them with little fuss.
I love the book. It's full of awesome and win.


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## Irda Ranger (Sep 19, 2008)

evilgeniusx said:


> why is a ring of feather fall 14th level when feather fall is a lvl 2 daily power?
> seems kind of out of whack don tyou think?
> 
> then there's this: winged boots are level 13,  and they are feather fall + fly (daily)....
> ...




In 4E item level is not determined by any spell's level. The item's level is solely a factor of its effect on play. I don't have the book, but that's the design philosophy.


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## doctorhook (Sep 19, 2008)

I love Adventurer's Vault! The sheer number of cool new things to see in this book makes it worth puchasing.

However, those (relatively few) items that don't mesh with my understanding of the design philosophy will be subject to DM approval.

Also, did the formatting errors in this book annoy anyone else? In the PHB, (and other 4E books, I believe) power blocks and magic item blocks have their subheading line directly underneath the heading, but all throughout AV, there's a strip of white dividing the two. Also, does the text in the final appendix seem vertically elongated to anyone else? Maybe I'm just an anal-retentive copy editor. (I can't stand sloppy formatting and editing.)


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## doctorhook (Sep 19, 2008)

doctorhook said:


> Are those static defense bonuses on minor magical items? Wasn't this sort of thing specifically condemned in the Design & Development 4E previews?



As I think about it now, I wonder if that +2 Fort bonus is acceptable on the basis that it's only a bonus to a single defense score (other than AC).

Still needs a type though, IMO.


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## Nytmare (Sep 19, 2008)

mlangsdorf said:


> You can still float a castle on the silly things.




Well...  an 8,000 lbs castle at least.


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## bganon (Sep 19, 2008)

That One Guy said:


> Is Rapid Strike Bracers (Free) + Gauntlets of Blinding Strikes (Standard) + Dual Strike over powered? I mean, it's four attacks at -2 each once a day.
> 
> In general, I like the book. A few things seem broken and I did see some stuff that was in need of errata, but over all I liked the book.




I only read it as three: the Rapidstrike Bracers can only turn a single basic attack into Twin Strike.  Also, it's not clear to me that Twin Strike is really a single-target power as required, so this may not work at all.

Even if it works, it's two Paragon items, and you can only pull it off once per day.  For that you get three 1[W] attacks at -2 against a single target, and only one attack gets your stat bonus added.  That's not bad, but every Ranger level 15 Daily power is IMO clearly better, so the items are hardly overshadowing the character's innate abilities.


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## mlangsdorf (Sep 19, 2008)

Nytmare said:


> Well...  an 8,000 lbs castle at least.




There's no weight limit quoted.  How do you figure 4 tons only?


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## WalterKovacs (Sep 19, 2008)

evilgeniusx said:


> why is a ring of feather fall 14th level when feather fall is a lvl 2 daily power?
> seems kind of out of whack don tyou think?
> 
> then there's this: winged boots are level 13, and they are feather fall + fly (daily)....
> ...




The ring of feather fall can allow the entire group to be under the 'protection' of feather fall for the encounter.

The both have the same property, but each has a different secondary effect. If there is something one person is likely to fall off of/into ... there is a chance the entire party may end up down there. Having one party member immune to the fall and able to fly back up is ok. Having the whole party immune to the fall is arguably a level better.


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## Nytmare (Sep 19, 2008)

mlangsdorf said:


> There's no weight limit quoted. How do you figure 4 tons only?




Ah, I don't have the new book yet, and was quoting the 3.5 rod.  It wasn't as immovable as many people usually assumed.


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## TikkchikFenTikktikk (Sep 19, 2008)

I guess I'll be the first to say it:

This is the new, fourth core book. For fifth edition they should pull all magic items out of the PHB and point at this book. I recommend everyone buy this (with their DMs permission, of course).

I'm very, very impressed.

I'm a very minimalist DM and ran 2nd edition for ages with just the DMG, PHB, and first two volumes of the MC. I strictly played 3.x and hated the splat-book madness the DM allowed. Now that I'm DMing again I was planning on falling back on my 2nd Edition style. But a player convinced me to take a look at this (he was most excited about the kukris, believe it or not) and now I own it and will use it.


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## That One Guy (Sep 20, 2008)

bganon said:


> I only read it as three: the Rapidstrike Bracers can only turn a single basic attack into Twin Strike.  Also, it's not clear to me that Twin Strike is really a single-target power as required, so this may not work at all.
> 
> Even if it works, it's two Paragon items, and you can only pull it off once per day.  For that you get three 1[W] attacks at -2 against a single target, and only one attack gets your stat bonus added.  That's not bad, but every Ranger level 15 Daily power is IMO clearly better, so the items are hardly overshadowing the character's innate abilities.



Thanks! I was more focusing on the Tempest Fighter Dual Strike. But, good point about it only being a single attack. When I first read it I thought it was over-powered, but since it would be a makeshift daily power I started to not think so. 
Which is why I asked.


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## Derren (Sep 20, 2008)

Edit2:
What about the Exodus Knife. If there wasn't  Rope Trick power in 4E now there is one.

And the Dust of Creation is a money making machine. Make a astral diamond (or a 25 pound block of astral diamonds which are 12500 ADs worth 125000000 GPs) and put them into a Pouch of Platinum to prevent them from disappearing.

Or what about creating residium and using that for making magical items?


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## Gort (Sep 20, 2008)

Falling Icicle said:


> Bracers of Archery - give a bonus to all ranged attacks.
> 
> I thought these kind of items were totally against 4e's design philosophy (hence the reasons gauntlets of ogre power only grant extra damage once per day).




Yeah, I read those and thought, "What, were archery rangers not good enough already? Why do they get +2 damage and nobody else?"


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## Drakhar (Sep 20, 2008)

You guys do realize there's the exact same bracers for Melee attacks as well right?


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## Cryptos (Sep 20, 2008)

Derren said:


> Edit2:
> What about the Exodus Knife. If there wasn't  Rope Trick power in 4E now there is one.
> 
> And the Dust of Creation is a money making machine. Make a astral diamond (or a 25 pound block of astral diamonds which are 12500 ADs worth 125000000 GPs) and put them into a Pouch of Platinum to prevent them from disappearing.
> ...




The PoPP converts _normal_ coins and gems to platinum.  Astral Diamonds created out of Dust of Creation wouldn't be normal, they would be temporary items that radiate magic.  Residuum isn't mundane, it's the raw material of magic item properties.  Dust of Creation can only create _mundane_ items.

So none of that would work.  Realistically, even the village idiot shouldn't be buying fantastically useful or valuable items that _glow_ from a random adventuring stranger that wanders into town in a 4e setting.  If he did, well, how much money do they pay for the position of Village Idiot these days?  Very little gain for the risk that the VI is going to run off and show his friends or family what a great deal he got, and have them run you out of town.

It's too obvious what you're aiming for anyway, if you ask for those items.

In terms of money making items and sheer utility of items, I'm surprised people aren't making more out of the *Pouches of Shared Acquisition*.  These little items are incredible useful.  Give one to your trusted NPC friend or relative from a decent-sized city.  When you stroll into a distant town or city, announce, "Instant message and small package delivery to Waterdeep!  No danger, no risk!  1 gold per message, 10 gold per small package!"  Or set yourself up as a courier that can provide an instant reply to a message.  The Duke of Anywhere wants to communicate with the Prince of Nowhere, so he hires you to deliver a message.  You deliver it, and the Prince can scribble off a reply to the Duke and it gets there instantly.  Half the communication and travel time.

Now, as for utility, say you're in a dungeon and you're in dire need of a potion.  You slip a note into the pouch, maybe some coins.  Your cousin or brother or whatever (who is probably fairly attentive to the pouch if you've been using it to make money with him) runs down to the corner shop, buys the potion, slips it into the bag, and you've just made a purchase from a big city merchant from hundreds of miles away, at the bottom of a dungeon.

Even without a trusted NPC, they still have their uses.

However, depending on GM style and opinion, any money making proposition in 4e may be moot, as I think that the DMG says something about taking money earned or made out of the total wealth a character should have.  A strict interpretation means that one level 10 adventurer is worth the same as another, even if one is a cunning entreprenuer and the other doesn't pay attention to the coin in his purse.  The Pouches of SA would still be amazingly useful, though.  A group of quick draw rogues, each with a shuriken or other small equipment that has different properties, could chain the pouches together and share those weapons or items as needed even in the heat of battle.


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## keterys (Sep 20, 2008)

Drakhar said:


> You guys do realize there's the exact same bracers for Melee attacks as well right?




This doesn't mean the item should exist at all. Something being bad and must have for everyone sucks.


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## Derren (Sep 20, 2008)

If you rule that the Pouch of Platinum doesn't work with dusted Astral Gems, then you are left with trading this gems for items/exchange.
The glow can be taken care of with a Darkskull.

The PCs will make many enemies with that (unless they instead of astral diamonds creating things which can disappear without someone noticing. Or they mix the fake ADs with a couple of real ones so that the merchant won't notice next morning that 3-4 ADs are missing). So this combo is probably not worth it when you have to buy the Dust. But when you have it then you can make a couple of thousand extra gp.
Still, if you manage to smelt 25 pound of platinum into coins and spend it the same day (or can cut just a fraction of a 25 pound astral diamond block into "currency astral diamonds" you are pretty darn rich.


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## Cryptos (Sep 20, 2008)

Derren said:


> If you rule that the Pouch of Platinum doesn't work with dusted Astral Gems, then you are left with trading this gems for items/exchange.
> The glow can be taken care of with a Darkskull.




There's a difference between using the PoP on real astral gems, and using them on magically created Astral Gems.  They shouldn't be trading Dust-created gems at all.  It wouldn't work by the definitions of the items, and in terms of normal trade, anyone trading something that valuable is going to a) wonder why you're using a Darkskull to make it so dark; b) want to examine the gems in the light to appraise them; c) probably have an Arcanist on call (or find one) to find out why they glow; d) hunt you down when they disappear in 24 hours.

The worry of "well, then how do I get money for my fake, temporary astral gems created by magic" is a false one: you're not supposed to.


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## Gort (Sep 20, 2008)

Drakhar said:


> You guys do realize there's the exact same bracers for Melee attacks as well right?




I didn't, actually. Which bracers are you referring to? Is it the one that only works for basic attacks? Because that's not at all the same thing.

Nevertheless, Keterys's counter-argument still works. Something so universally useful is the definition of a broken magic item (IE: Something everyone would take)


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## Psybuster (Sep 20, 2008)

The melee version is Iron Armbands of Power (Adventurer's Vault p117). It doesn't have a daily power like the archer one, not that it really matters, it's still so much more useful than any other arms slot item available to even defenders IMO. Even worse, implement users get shafted since there's no equivalent for them to at least level the playing field.


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## mlangsdorf (Sep 21, 2008)

Cryptos said:


> In terms of money making items and sheer utility of items, I'm surprised people aren't making more out of the *Pouches of Shared Acquisition*.  These little items are incredible useful.  Give one to your trusted NPC friend or relative from a decent-sized city.  When you stroll into a distant town or city, announce, "Instant message and small package delivery to Waterdeep!  No danger, no risk!  1 gold per message, 10 gold per small package!"  Or set yourself up as a courier that can provide an instant reply to a message.




Leomund's Secret Chest does it for larger quantities of goods much more cheaply.


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## Stalker0 (Sep 21, 2008)

What do people think about the subtle weapon for rogues? At high levels, getting a +12 to damage on almost every attack (since rogues have tons of ways to get CA at those levels) seems a bit of a nobrainer.

Then again, maybe +12 damage isn't that much at high levels.


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## Drakhar (Sep 21, 2008)

keterys said:


> This doesn't mean the item should exist at all. Something being bad and must have for everyone sucks.




I can actually think of more then a few arm slot items that I would probably take over the straight increase to damage items. Just because it gives you a slight increase in damage doesn't make it a must have, otherwise MM using Wizards would all have Bracers of Perfect Shot on.


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## EvolutionKB (Sep 21, 2008)

I could be way off on this, but look at veterans armor(available at low levels).  I am AFB so I'm not sure, but if you use an items daily power, and you reach a milestone can you reuse that items daily power?  If so, as long as you keep getting milestones, you can reuse daily attack powers.


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## Drakhar (Sep 21, 2008)

You're close, when you gain a milestone you can use another daily power from an item yes, however unless the item has been recharged by some other source, you cannot use the same item multiple times.


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## keterys (Sep 21, 2008)

Drakhar said:


> I can actually think of more then a few arm slot items that I would probably take over the straight increase to damage items. Just because it gives you a slight increase in damage doesn't make it a must have, otherwise MM using Wizards would all have Bracers of Perfect Shot on.




Except those bracers only work on magic missile, one of the less useful powers... and these work on every single attack of every type the character makes.

That's a bit of disparity.


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## Herald of I (Sep 21, 2008)

EvolutionKB said:


> I could be way off on this, but look at veterans armor(available at low levels).  I am AFB so I'm not sure, but if you use an items daily power, and you reach a milestone can you reuse that items daily power?  If so, as long as you keep getting milestones, you can reuse daily attack powers.




Think of it them like points. Each point can activate a daily power, and you get another one each milestone. However each individual item is only good for one shot a day, no matter how many points you sink into it (baring outside abilities like the artificer's).


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## Drakhar (Sep 21, 2008)

keterys said:


> Except those bracers only work on magic missile, one of the less useful powers... and these work on every single attack of every type the character makes.
> 
> That's a bit of disparity.




There's also an entirely different point being made in that post, not a comparison between Bracers of Perfect Shot and Bracers of Archery.

Also a quick point. The Bracers of Archery only work for Bow and Crossbow attacks, where as the Iron Armbands of Power are Melee only. 


Now IMO are both these items good? Yes. Overpowered/Broken/Problematic? Hardly. They are nice to have but definately not must have for every character with a bow/crossbow.


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## keterys (Sep 21, 2008)

Nor are untyped bonuses to defenses in those items "broken", but they still break promises we were given about the balance of items in 4e.

And they certainly widen the gap _considerably_ between a group that gives out all of the items from Adventurer's Vault and one that doesn't. Nevermind the group that plays much lower magic and doesn't get much beyond a basic enhancement bonus progression.

There's acres more variety in Adventurer's Vault and I'm happy about that, but as far as precedent goes, there's a lot of bad things. And it will only get worse over time in that respect. And that makes me sad.


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## Stalker0 (Sep 22, 2008)

Let me throw the tempest whetstone on the pile. Every successful hit gives me a burst 2 instant kill of every minion, for the whole encounter.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 23, 2008)

keterys said:


> Nor are untyped bonuses to defenses in those items "broken", but they still break promises we were given about the balance of items in 4e.
> 
> And they certainly widen the gap _considerably_ between a group that gives out all of the items from Adventurer's Vault and one that doesn't. Nevermind the group that plays much lower magic and doesn't get much beyond a basic enhancement bonus progression.



I am not sure yet, but it appears to me as if at least those masterwork items that grant a bonus to other defenses just force you make a choice between another bonus to AC or a bonus to one of your defenses. I don't know about other items.

What I find more useful are certain potions and elixiers. For example the one that grants the party resistance 5/10/15 against necrotic and poison damage. Very useful!

But for balance concerns I am looking more at items that seem to change the amount of modifiers/abilities that you can stack. Being resistant to all energy types is quite useful, but will it turn out game-breaking? 
Getting an "untyped" bonus to Fort from your armor seems to break the balance - except when it doesn't, and it effectively means you just can't improve another defense by that point. But if you invent multiple items that do this, things might go wrong.

But then, I notice that Masterwork Armor increases AC more then Cloaks increase your other Defenses. So to fully account for the games math, you need something to improve the other defenses, too. (Unless Masterwork armor is broken, too)

Monster attacks increase with +1/level. PCs defenses increase by +3/4 per level (+1 per 2 levels automatically, +1 per 4 levels from magic.), plus potentially another +1 per 5 levels for those defenses you increase per default. This leaves us with a gap of up to 4+ points at higher levels if we don't have such items - are these expected to come from powers, or are they expected to come from magic items?


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## infocynic (Sep 23, 2008)

I actually just figure you're supposed to be a little behind the curve at the top. You make up for it with really cool powers, whether those improve defense, or allow more healing, or take enemies out of the fight longer, etc. 

Typically I don't see it as 3/4, but
Light: 0.5 (half level) + 0.2 (enhancement) + 4/30 (ability; by level 30 you will have raised it 8 times for +4 not counting Demigod) + 1/15 (masterwork improvement, you gain +2 over the course of the game)= 0.9 per level (optionally an additional +1 from some feat whether hide spec or TWD, or something, counts as +1/30 bringing you to .9333, or if you get two bonuses that stack (demigod + TWD for example), you're at .9666, and at three bonuses (demigod + TWD + hide spec) you're at 1.0 per level.

Heavy: 0.5 (half level) + 6/30 (masterwork) + 6/30 (enhc) = 0.9 per level. Again, you need feats like specialization, or figure that you started higher than the light armor guys b/c you have a shield.


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## keterys (Sep 23, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I am not sure yet, but it appears to me as if at least those masterwork items that grant a bonus to other defenses just force you make a choice between another bonus to AC or a bonus to one of your defenses. I don't know about other items.




Yeah, I'm okay with the masterworks. I'm objecting to the items that aren't in the core three slots that do things like give fort/ref/will bonuses, add damage to all attacks a character does, etc. Also things like reducing the target's saves by the enhancement bonus of the weapon that stack with other sources.



> What I find more useful are certain potions and elixiers. For example the one that grants the party resistance 5/10/15 against necrotic and poison damage. Very useful!




Useful, sure - but creatures deal so low damage that I already think it's too easy to become near immune with resistance from items. I'm just not in favor of making it even easier. Especially with the resists that entire creature types and areas revolve around, like necrotic and fire.



> Getting an "untyped" bonus to Fort from your armor seems to break the balance




Trading AC for a little more defense is fine. Especially if they realized there's a slight disparity in attack vs defense. I just don't like it showing up on secondary slots that aren't supposed to be required like feet, head, waist.


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## infocynic (Sep 23, 2008)

keterys said:
			
		

> Trading AC for a little more defense is fine. Especially if they realized there's a slight disparity in attack vs defense. I just don't like it showing up on secondary slots that aren't supposed to be required like feet, head, waist.




I've as much as told my players that bonuses, typed or otherwise, with no conditions attached, that are not AC on armor (or new masterworks), non-AC on neck, or +atk/dmg on weapons, are not allowed. Items with extremely limited conditions under which these bonuses activate are OK, for example, I gave out a Shield of Eyes (gain item bonus equal to shield bonus to AC vs Opportunity attacks) in the last session.


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## Sabathius42 (Sep 25, 2008)

OK, here is the first major design flaw I noticed.

PHB: +1 dagger - LVL1 - 360 gold
AV: +1 distance dagger - LVL 1 - 360 gold and can be thrown twice as far.

DS


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## FireLance (Sep 25, 2008)

Sabathius42 said:


> OK, here is the first major design flaw I noticed.
> 
> PHB: +1 dagger - LVL1 - 360 gold
> AV: +1 distance dagger - LVL 1 - 360 gold and can be thrown twice as far.



Distance weapons deal no additional damage on a crit.

Critting with a _+1 dagger_: 1d6 + 5 + other damage bonuses.
Critting with a _+1 distance dagger_: 5 + other damage bonuses.


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## Prism (Sep 25, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> But then, I notice that Masterwork Armor increases AC more then Cloaks increase your other Defenses. So to fully account for the games math, you need something to improve the other defenses, too. (Unless Masterwork armor is broken, too)





Masterwork heavy armour gives an increase in AC to account for the lack of a stat increase over the levels. Masterwork light armour isn't as good because it assumes a character will have an increasing INT or DEX. Not sure if it balances out though. Basically if you choose not to boost DEX or INT then you need to wear heavy MW armour to remain competitive


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## Byronic (Sep 25, 2008)

FireLance said:


> Distance weapons deal no additional damage on a crit.
> 
> Critting with a _+1 dagger_: 1d6 + 5 + other damage bonuses.
> Critting with a _+1 distance dagger_: 5 + other damage bonuses.




True, but I think the whole point is "why have a normal dagger when you could have a distance dagger for the same price?"


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 25, 2008)

Prism said:


> Masterwork heavy armour gives an increase in AC to account for the lack of a stat increase over the levels. Masterwork light armour isn't as good because it assumes a character will have an increasing INT or DEX. Not sure if it balances out though. Basically if you choose not to boost DEX or INT then you need to wear heavy MW armour to remain competitive




But even Masterwork Light Armor gets a +1 to +2 bonus. And other defenses don't. That was my point.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 25, 2008)

Byronic said:


> True, but I think the whole point is "why have a normal dagger when you could have a distance dagger for the same price?"



Because you deal less damage on average?


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## Prism (Sep 25, 2008)

Byronic said:


> True, but I think the whole point is "why have a normal dagger when you could have a distance dagger for the same price?"




For many uses a normal +1 dagger is better than a distance dagger because doing more damage on a crit is better than an increase in range. Especially if you are not throwing it ;-)


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## Prism (Sep 25, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> But even Masterwork Light Armor gets a +1 to +2 bonus. And other defenses don't. That was my point.




Yeah, I'm not too sure why a freebie +2 to AC over the levels is seemingly required vs the other saves. Maybe to balance the iron will style feats?


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## Brian Gibbons (Sep 25, 2008)

While most of the level 6/11/16/21/26 weapons do decrease crits as a trade-off, there are a few that do not.

The dynamic weapon (change shape into the weapon of your choice) and sacrificial weapon (daily power to spend a healing surge as a free action to leave your target weakened for a round) have all of the benefits of a basic magic weapon weapon plus more, at the same price.


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## Sabathius42 (Sep 26, 2008)

FireLance said:


> Distance weapons deal no additional damage on a crit.
> 
> Critting with a _+1 dagger_: 1d6 + 5 + other damage bonuses.
> Critting with a _+1 distance dagger_: 5 + other damage bonuses.




I definately overlooked that little snippet.  That at least makes it defendable.

I still don't like the idea of ANY propertied weapon or armor being LVL1.

DS


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## keterys (Sep 26, 2008)

Sabathius42 said:


> I still don't like the idea of ANY propertied weapon or armor being LVL1




What about level 6?

I actually don't like non-properties weapons/armor at all. I'd just as soon that everything past basic +1 ones had properties


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## burntgerbil (Sep 26, 2008)

seconded. a plus 6 longsword is not as cool (to most people) as a +5 vorpal.


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## mattdm (Sep 28, 2008)

keterys said:


> I actually don't like non-properties weapons/armor at all. I'd just as soon that everything past basic +1 ones had properties




Yeah. In my game, if the players want to enchant that boring stuff for themselves, okay. But all the treasure they're going to find at 6/11/16 etc. is just going to happen to be wondrous items and other things not bound by this pattern.


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## Gort (Sep 28, 2008)

mattdm said:


> Yeah. In my game, if the players want to enchant that boring stuff for themselves, okay. But all the treasure they're going to find at 6/11/16 etc. is just going to happen to be wondrous items and other things not bound by this pattern.




Yeah, this is my exact philosophy. I'd far rather everyone was running around with flaming swords than just "generically better sword +2".


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## Phoenix8008 (Sep 29, 2008)

Slightly off topic, but can anybody with the Adventurers Vault book tell me if there is a Githyanki Silver sword in it? Don't have the book yet but my Githyanki PC would love to know...


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## James McMurray (Sep 29, 2008)

Nope. They're kinda in the MM, but they appear to have different efects based on which gith is holding them.


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## GMforPowergamers (Sep 29, 2008)

Brian Gibbons said:


> The dynamic weapon (change shape into the weapon of your choice) and sacrificial weapon (daily power to spend a healing surge as a free action to leave your target weakened for a round) have all of the benefits of a basic magic weapon weapon plus more, at the same price.




The dynamic weapon would never see play as is if it cost more. So Idon't see aproblme as is. Since most layers favor 1 weapon, I don't expect it to get much play even for 'free'.

Sacrificial weapon I am not so sure, but I belive costing the healing surge is the reason not to up the price.


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## bobthehappyzombie (Sep 30, 2008)

Well I like the book, as many have said it has some dodgy items... but we'd all kinda expected that right?

Anyhw heres a typo i'm guessing... it could however just be a weaksauce anti evil power.

*Righteous Weapon Level 10+*

Crafted with faith and wrath, this weapon is a scourge of evil.

Weapon: Any melee
Enhancement: Attack rolls and damage rolls
Critical: +1d6 damage per plus, or +1d8 damage per plus
against evil creatures.

Power (Daily): Free Action. Use this power when you hit with the weapon. *The target is dazed until the end of your next turn*. If the target is evil or chaotic evil, the target is [d]instead dazed (save ends).[/b]

seems like that should at least say stunned


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## malcolm_n (Sep 30, 2008)

No, the difference between end of next and (save ends) is marginal, but definite.  A creature is expected to fail saves at least once on average, especially with penalties being doled (SP?) out left and right at higher levels.


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## keterys (Sep 30, 2008)

Dazed is a very good effect - it stops immediate actions and OAs. Combined with shift and it also effectively stuns many creatures. Plus sets up sneak attack and gives +2 to attack for everyone.

 In fact, a weapon that stunned would pretty much be horribly overpowered at any level of play.


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## chaotix42 (Sep 30, 2008)

^^^ Believe it. Dazed is no joke!


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## malcolm_n (Sep 30, 2008)

Question on order of operations for 4e...

I have a wizard with Rapidstrike Bracers and a Staff of Missile Mastery.  Can I use the Rapidstrike Bracers and then the staff to effectively attack several targets?  Or does it just not let me use the staff?


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## Baumi (Sep 30, 2008)

I'm not sure if it is really broken but *Mage's Weapon* can give everyone extremely easy access to Exotic Blades (Fullblade, Rapier,...).

I think that's very powerful, but on the other hand it's other Power is really only usable for Martial/Arcane Multiclass Characters or Half-Elves (does his Dilettante Power count as Encounter Power?).


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## kerbarian (Sep 30, 2008)

Psybuster said:


> The melee version is Iron Armbands of Power (Adventurer's Vault p117). It doesn't have a daily power like the archer one, not that it really matters, it's still so much more useful than any other arms slot item available to even defenders IMO. Even worse, implement users get shafted since there's no equivalent for them to at least level the playing field.



It's only available towards the end of epic, but the Opal Ring of Remembrance gives +2 to Intelligence attacks, which I'd think would be more significant than +6 damage.

I was definitely surprised by the Bracers of Archery and Iron Armbands of Power, though.  I can't think of any other item property that's so universally useful and powerful (aside from the basic enhancements of weapon/armor/neck).  They stand out so much that it makes me think it's an intentional bias towards martial characters.

A few other items that seemed... not necessarily problematic, but significant:

Grasping Weapon (p.70):  The rules aren't entirely clear here, but if you can use this to grab at reach 2 (with a nice bonus), that's a significant change to the grab mechanic that makes it much more powerful.  The question is whether "You can use this weapon to grab targets" is intended to override the basic grab rule "The creature must be within your melee reach (don't count extra reach from a weapon)."  Since they were obviously thinking about reach weapons for this -- grasping weapons can only be polearms or spears -- I would have expected a clearer wording.

Veteran's Armor (p.55):  This one was mentioned already, but being able to re-use daily powers starting with a level 2 item seems like a pretty big deal.  Not necessarily problematic, but it changes the game a bit.

Medallion of Death Deferred (p.153):  This is significantly lower level (starts at 9) than other items and powers that automatically save you at 0hp.  However, it doesn't leave you with a lot of hp.

I still think a Dancing Weapon (from the PHB) is one of the most powerful items, though.  Assuming you let it dance and then pull out another weapon to fight with, it effectively gives you an extra melee basic attack as a minor action every round until the end of the encounter.


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## WhatGravitas (Sep 30, 2008)

Baumi said:


> I'm not sure if it is really broken but *Mage's Weapon* can give everyone extremely easy access to Exotic Blades (Fullblade, Rapier,...).



On the other hand, you pass up a lot of good weapon properties. I think that getting the feat is a much lower investment than passing up a good enchantment.

Cheers, LT.


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## kerbarian (Oct 2, 2008)

Voidcrystal Weapon is fairly powerful, but I just noticed something that makes it even moreso.  It's restricted to "Any melee", but that includes thrown weapons.  So you could hit someone with a voidcrystal javelin up to 20 squares away, make them miss a round of combat, and then have them reappear right next to you and all of your melee buddies.

Likewise, you could have a Prime Shot thrown weapon that you intend to use in melee, but I don't think that's an issue -- the thrown weapons just aren't competetive as melee weapons, even with some extra damage.


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## Nebulous (Nov 21, 2008)

What's the consensus on the Bag of Tricks?  A daily power to pull a 1hp minion seems useless.


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## Engilbrand (Nov 21, 2008)

You almost have to spend a Healing Surge for the Bag of Tricks. I've seen the dog used by a low level group. At the very least, it was a couple of hits that the Wizard didn't take.
Personally, I'm a big fan of the Diamond Bracers. You can't go wrong with ignoring 10 points of damage from an attack, especially if it's a weapon attack.
Bloodclaw Weapon also makes my Barbarian-becoming-a-Battlerage-Vigor-Fighter very happy.


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## Nebulous (Nov 21, 2008)

Engilbrand said:


> You also have to spend a Healing Surge for the Bag of Tricks. I've seen the dog used by a low level group. At the very least, it was a couple of hits that the Wizard didn't take.




Well, the dog isn't a choice for the group at low level (per RAW).  You do get a wolf at 18th level.

Does no one else think that a daily ability to pull out a 1hp minion that still costs you a healing surge is a pretty terrible 8th level magic item?


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## Engilbrand (Nov 21, 2008)

Actually, it occurs to me that I was thinking of the Wondrous Items.
I still think that the normal bag is pretty nifty. Sure, it's a daily, but it's all situational.


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## Bayuer (Nov 21, 2008)

From PHB Gaunlets of Piercing. Lvl 3. Ignora all resistance of 10 or lower? Are you kidding?

Symbol of Hope. +5 to intemidiate saving throw? Lol.

Bloodclaw is good but not great. You loose HP and damage isn't so terrifying.

Boots of Fencing Master. +1 to KP and Ref after Shift is must have.


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## Hambot (Nov 28, 2008)

kerbarian said:


> I was definitely surprised by the Bracers of Archery and Iron Armbands of Power, though.  I can't think of any other item property that's so universally useful and powerful (aside from the basic enhancements of weapon/armor/neck).  They stand out so much that it makes me think it's an intentional bias towards martial characters.




Wow those armbands are good.  They just showed up on one of my random treasure rolls.  Should I make them work only when the character is bloodied?  When the enemy is bloodied?  Any other ideas on how to make those armbands actually balanced?  Make them just for one type of monster, (like natural monsters) or make them healing surge items?



kerbarian said:


> Grasping Weapon (p.70):  The rules aren't entirely clear here, but if you can use this to grab at reach 2 (with a nice bonus), that's a significant change to the grab mechanic that makes it much more powerful.  The question is whether "You can use this weapon to grab targets" is intended to override the basic grab rule "The creature must be within your melee reach (don't count extra reach from a weapon)."  Since they were obviously thinking about reach weapons for this -- grasping weapons can only be polearms or spears -- I would have expected a clearer wording.




If it says you can use your reach polearm to grab someone, this exception to the normal grab rule works.  Quite cool for a polearm PC, an archetype that doesn't really ever get much love.


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## ferratus (Nov 30, 2008)

I have one that is fairly broken.   Bracers of Bloodthirst for a Cha 20 Bard.

7 ongoing damage on a successful melee hit for a 4th level item.


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## SableWyvern (Nov 30, 2008)

ferratus said:


> I have one that is fairly broken.   Bracers of Bloodthirst for a Cha 20 Bard.
> 
> 7 ongoing damage on a successful melee hit for a 4th level item.




Typical ongoing damage in paragon tier is 5. So, this is slightly higher than that (when being used by a character who has maxed Cha) as a daily power. Doesn't sound particularly broken to me.


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## Al'Kelhar (Dec 1, 2008)

Bayuer said:


> From PHB Gaunlets of Piercing. Lvl 3. Ignora all resistance of 10 or lower? Are you kidding?
> ...




Yep - My wizard bought those as soon as she could afford them.

Compare these two from the PHB:

Bracers of Defence - Daily power is an immediate interrupt to reduce damage from one melee attack by 10 points. *Level 7*

Bloodcut armour enhancement - Healing surge recharge power is minor action to reduce damage from all attacks by 10 until the end of your next turn.  *Level 5* for +1 armour.

Sure, the armour enhancement means you have to predict when you're going to get wailed on - but using it just before you charge the dragon sounds like a good bet...

Which would you buy?

Cheers, Al'Kelhar


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## silentounce (Dec 1, 2008)

Yeah, but those are two different slots.  And one is actually on armor.  That's an apples and oranges comparison.  Most of the same level armors have much greater benefit that same level arms slot items.  Plus as you mentioned, one is an immediate interrupt, and one you have to turn on.


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## Graethynne (Dec 1, 2008)

Also, by level 2, a character wearing this armor likely has a surge value of 10, or more.  Thus, not only do you need to guess when to use this power (because you must use it on your turn) you also need to get hit more than once for 10 or more damage per hit, per use.  Otherwise it wasn't worth it to recharge the power.  If this power didn't recharge (or recharging is not worth while), the bracers of defence are simply better in most cases (getting swarmed by scads of very accurate enemies being the exception I suppose).  

Best!

Graethynne


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## ricardo440 (Dec 1, 2008)

Items that can be recharged using healing surges start each day automatically recharged.


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## Hambot (Dec 26, 2008)

Wow I thought the bracers that added +2 or +4 or +6 extra damage to all melee or ranged attacks made wizards sad sad puppies.  Until I read through the whole book and saw

Staff of Ruin
lvl 3 +1 up to lvl 28 +6

enhancement to attack and damage rolls
critical +1d10 per plus

Property:  In addition to the normal enhancement bonus, add the staff's enhancement bonus to damage rolls as an item bonus.

So the level 3 staff is +1 to hit and +2 damage to all wizard attacks, pretty cool.  But the lvl 13 is +3 to hit and +6 damage to each attack, giving casters similar boosts to the no brainer arms slot equipment.  This gives wizards quite the damage boost if they are targeting 2 creatures/shot.  The lvl 28 +6 to hit and +12 to damage seems pretty cool, if you can get 2-3 monsters in a daily area of effect.  Still, by then the monsters have such mondo powers they tend to daze you by glancing in your general direction so it may all balance out in the end.


Also there was one item somewhere in the book that dealt ongoing damage with no (save ends).  Can't find it now though.


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## infocynic (Dec 26, 2008)

Well, it's +6 beyond the normal +6 that everyone is expected to have at that level. So it's basically the same as the iron armbands.


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## keterys (Dec 26, 2008)

But in a much more expensive slot for benefits - I'd much rather dedicate an arms slot to it than the weapon benefit.


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## DracoSuave (Dec 26, 2008)

Sabathius42 said:


> I still don't like the idea of ANY propertied weapon or armor being LVL1.




Enchant Item is a level 6 ritual.  So when players can enchant their own gear, they'll be eying level 6 stuff, not level 1 stuff.

But even then, even if you randomly rolled every magic item in the game, your players will -never-, and I mean -never- see a level 1 magic item.

They simply don't exist on the treasure charts.

Anything else is by your own volition.


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## CapnZapp (Dec 27, 2008)

DracoSuave said:


> Enchant Item is a level 6 ritual.  So when players can enchant their own gear, they'll be eying level 6 stuff, not level 1 stuff.
> 
> But even then, even if you randomly rolled every magic item in the game, your players will -never-, and I mean -never- see a level 1 magic item.
> 
> ...



That's bending the truth somewhat.

While it's true there isn't an "level + 0" entry in the treasure parcel table, you say "even if you randomly roll". I'd say it's _only_ if you roll for all treasure this holds true.

In all those campaigns where magic items can be purchased, a plain Magic Weapon will cost you (slightly more than) 360 gp, which you could conceivably afford even at 1st level. (Easily so if the party pools its resources)

_Edit:_ Also, in campaigns where the party can find NPCs who are willing to cast the ritual for them, they could get hold of level 1 magic items.

"By your own volition" - You make that sound like that's some obscure non-standard method of introducing treasure...


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## Alikar (Dec 30, 2008)

Bayuer said:


> From PHB Gaunlets of Piercing. Lvl 3. Ignora all resistance of 10 or lower? Are you kidding?




[Daily] Till the end of the encounter.



Bayuer said:


> Symbol of Hope. +5 to intemidiate saving throw? Lol.




[Daily] Immeadiate reaction to *ONE* effect that encounter.



Bayuer said:


> Bloodclaw is good but not great. You loose HP and damage isn't so terrifying.




I'd actually argue this a pretty powerful weapon. Especially on classes that can easily get temporary HP.



Bayuer said:


> Boots of Fencing Master. +1 to KP and Ref after Shift is must have.




These are pretty nice, but they highly restrict your movement to just shifting and the effect only lasts a turn.


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## CapnZapp (Dec 30, 2008)

DracoSuave said:


> But even then, even if you randomly rolled every magic item in the game, your players will -never-, and I mean -never- see a level 1 magic item.



One more case where this isn't true: when you create a higher-level character. 

By DMG guidelines, any fresh level 2 character gets three magic items; one of levels three, two and one, respectively.


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## James McMurray (Dec 30, 2008)

Any GM who hands a level 2 starting character three magic items is either inexperienced, monty haul, or very very evil (and hence knows you'll need them).


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## Alikar (Dec 30, 2008)

James McMurray said:


> Any GM who hands a level 2 starting character three magic items is either inexperienced, monty haul, or very very evil (and hence knows you'll need them).




Not really. Since the game itself recommends that any character starting after level 1 have three magic items, I would think that the power level of those items has been taken into account.


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## James McMurray (Dec 30, 2008)

Sure, if you think that section was intended for use with 2nd level PCs and don't mind that a newly minted 2nd level PC has infinite mundane resources while the poor schlub who worked his way to 3rd is going to have nowhere near as much mundane treasure, and will only have 2 magic items if the treasure guidelines are being used and spoils are being divided evenly.

I'm looking for a new game, but I hate first level. Do you mind if I start at 2nd in your 3rd level campaign?


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## CapnZapp (Dec 30, 2008)

I guess I don't need to know the answer, but just out of pure curiosity, what's so unbalanced about the DMG guidelines when applied to a second level character?


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## James McMurray (Dec 30, 2008)

A 2nd level party who fights their way there has found 4 magic items and enough gold to buy one more (if they don't spend it on mundane gear). That's one item each. 

A 2nd level PC who is created using the DMG guidelines has three magic items and every piece of nonmagic gear he wants.


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## Dracorat (Dec 30, 2008)

Hm, in my current campaign, my PCs have barely scratched level 3 and they are clamoring for cash to shack up at the inn.

Maybe I'm a bit the opposite of Monte Haul. I'll have to consider it.

But at level two, having three items - I do consider that to be a bit MH. Maybe one. _POSSIBLY_ two.

Later on, like level 15, it might be more than three. I dunno. I'll have to think on it.

And give my characters a magic item or two in the next couple of sessions...


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## Dice4Hire (Dec 30, 2008)

A party of 4-5 PCs wil usually gain one magic item each going form 1st to 2nd level. Having one start with three all to himself is a bit much. Plus having an amount of gold equal to a magic item is a bit much. That system really does not work out until level 4 or even 5.


Yes, I know level 1, 2 and 3 items are pretty weak, but that is a plus one item, and a couple boots to skills or some small dailies. Much nicer than nothing.


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## Jhaelen (Dec 30, 2008)

James McMurray said:


> A 2nd level party who fights their way there has found 4 magic items and enough gold to buy one more (if they don't spend it on mundane gear). That's one item each.
> 
> A 2nd level PC who is created using the DMG guidelines has three magic items and every piece of nonmagic gear he wants.



Exactly. Applying the DMG rules as written means the best strategy for players is to level up and then provoke a TPK.

Everything that encourages metagaming in such a way is really bad - and another example why trying to play using the RAW alone is a stupid idea.


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## Danceofmasks (Dec 30, 2008)

RAW does not say, in any edition, that TPK = make new toons of the same level.


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## CapnZapp (Jan 1, 2009)

Danceofmasks said:


> RAW does not say, in any edition, that TPK = make new toons of the same level.



QFT.

Any set of players that tried this stunt would find themselves with a fresh band of level 1 heroes.

What the DMG does say, instead, is this: "When a character does die, it’s usually up to the players as a group to decide what happens. Some players are perfectly happy to roll up a new character, especially when they’re eager to try out new options. _Don’t penalize a new character in the group_. The new member should start at the same level as the rest of the party _and have similar gear_."
(my emphasis)


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## CapnZapp (Jan 1, 2009)

_Returning to the original topic:_

Any chance of a *summary*, of AV items consensus says really are problematic in general?


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