# sandbox campaign - map size/scale?



## GlassJaw (Dec 7, 2009)

I'm strongly considering running a sandbox campaign the next time I DM.

I've started to brainstorm on some ideas but one thing that always throws me for a loop is how big "the map" should be.  Obviously I'm not going to map out the whole world but is there a good rule of thumb for sizing the campaign area?

The second question is how detailed the scale should be.  Should each hex represent 1 mile, 5 miles, 10 miles?  Realistically, at what point will the world seem too "cluttered"?

What is a realistic area of a creature's hunting territory?  How far should towns and cities be away from each other?  How far will a common folk's knowledge of the surrounding area be?  Will they know about far-away places, ruins, rumors, etc?

I probably should check out some campaign modules, like the aforementioned Lost City of Barakus and Rappan Athuk, for some ideas on distance and scale.


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## weem (Dec 7, 2009)

As was mentioned in another sandbox thread, check out this article if you have not already...

ars ludi » Grand Experiments: West Marches

Great article about a sandbox game - lots of good info. I read it a while back though so I don't recall if he goes into the scale... and I'm not good with scale myself so I am of no help, haha.


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## Ydars (Dec 7, 2009)

He does go into scale and one thing he states is this: DON'T use hexes as they create the illusion that once someone has been in the hex then they have seen everything.

Indeed, I would suggest using the same system as Ben from Ars Ludi: map in a small a scale as you can and put as much detail on your vector-based map as possible and aim to map an area that is no bigger than about a weeks journey time across, at least at first.


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## howandwhy99 (Dec 13, 2009)

GlassJaw said:


> I'm strongly considering running a sandbox campaign the next time I DM.



Sounds good!



> I've started to brainstorm on some ideas but one thing that always throws me for a loop is how big "the map" should be.  Obviously I'm not going to map out the whole world but is there a good rule of thumb for sizing the campaign area?



For an entire campaign the map should be at least 10 levels large, but you can probably get away with 3 or 4 to start.  For an overland dungeon map the slowing of PC travel is far less than in city or underground dungeons.  Try and estimate how far the PCs could travel in one session from the campaign starting point and expand out at least that far.  This will not typically be a circular map because of the nature of the surrounding terrain. Mountains slow things up considerably, but roads, paths, rivers, waterways, and open water can extend the map considerable distances (because of potentially faster travel methods).  So a prepared map will likely look oblong in consideration of terrain type.  Remember the deeper the PCs travel into the dungeon (lvl 1 at starting point terrain, lvl 2, say, forest terrain, etc.) the longer it is going to to take them to move into a particular territory because of creatures / challenges therein.  So don't worry about making, maybe, level 4 and above for the campaign start.  That may mean you have some "hollow" giant forests and mountains where only the foothills are populated, but this allows for building between sessions according to the Players' actions.



> The second question is how detailed the scale should be.  Should each hex represent 1 mile, 5 miles, 10 miles?  Realistically, at what point will the world seem too "cluttered"?



My advice?  Do not think of the world as needing to be gridded or hexed (like the Wilderlands map) where every river, shoreline, and road follow the hexes. Plastic overlays with hexes printed on work just as well for figuring out distance measurements on a hand drawn map as pre-hexed/gridded maps.  Plus, free hand allows for greater design freedom and the essential penciling of the map (essential because all maps change as the game is played).  For distance in your Legend, I think 1"=24 miles is best, but it all breaks down to terrain again and the penalties each has upon movement.  24 is divisible by 1,2,3,4,6,8, and 12, but 30 has 1,2,3,5,6,10, and 15.  So it's more of a matter of what fractions are on the terrain table you are using.  I *believe* AD&D used 24 miles in the DMG1e, but I can't remember for sure.

_EDIT:
In terms of cluttering, it depends upon how large you want to make your early levels.  Remember, the game world starts in equilibrium, so for every enemy populated area you will need equivalent neutral and ally dungeons.  In standard D&D cities and towns are allies, wilderness is neutral, and underground dungeons are enemies.  Personally, I would make the enemy territory about twice as large in terms of XPs as a large PC party needs to gain the next level.  This includes treasure (resources).  Whatever rule you make for this proportion, give the other two factions the equivalent abstract amounts and place lowest level territories of differing alignments next to each other.   Like pawns on the chessboard, the borderlands are where the 1st level PCs begin.  The potentially powerful allies and opponents lie farther afield._



> What is a realistic area of a creature's hunting territory?



Each creatures is going to be different, but I've found it is best just to keep territory to the level or levels they are on.  As with an underground dungeon, a single level may be divided up into separate territories too because of alignment conflicts.  And, of course, the level they populate is based upon the Environment listing in the MM, which denotes terrain type for each creature's territory.



> How far should towns and cities be away from each other?



They can be as far as whatever rule you want to make up for this.  Typically towns and cities are one day's merchant travel away from at least one other.  Basically, the distance a merchant wagon or vessel can travel.  Civilized / Lawful population centers are almost always connected by man made constructions like roads extending this distance because of the speed gained on them.  Neutral population centers may or may not have roads. Neutrals do not purposefully construct such.  Paths, like those neutral animals create through accident, are used, but typically these only lead to natural resources.  Uncivilized / Chaotic centers are really based upon whatever organized center already existed before they arrived. 



> How far will a common folk's knowledge of the surrounding area be?



Any creature is only going to know the territory they are within.  They will also have historic knowledge of territories they were in, but that is only useful for knowing what was there.  Which is certainly better than nothing.



> Will they know about far-away places, ruins, rumors, etc?



When mapping information I find it is easiest to aggregate by faction and territory before specifying named NPC's knowledge.  Information that has reached a territory will likely be known, in a town for example, by all 0-level adult NPCs who live there.  Information spread only through a faction will be different, but this is still limited by territory.  It's important to have rules for how information spreads, so the map can be altered as the game progresses.  Given magical communication spells rumors don't just spread on foot.



> I probably should check out some campaign modules, like the aforementioned Lost City of Barakus and Rappan Athuk, for some ideas on distance and scale.



LCoB isn't bad, but some things (like the area to the South and beyond the seashore) definitely need to be prepped before running.  RA is more of a typical underground dungeon where all the above advice applies just as much, but it is an enemy territory to the PCs (unless you are playing a chaotic campaign?)  So it would need at least as much Neutral and Civilized territory beyond its front lines (the dungeon entrances) as is in the module itself.


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## S'mon (Dec 13, 2009)

When I run Wilderlands I use 15 miles per hex (ie I made the setting 3 times bigger), which works well for a wide-ranging campaign across open plains.

Lost City of Barakus uses 5 miles per hex, the map is not fantastic but it works ok.  I had to add villages, which are absent from the map, and do a lot of work on it as it's not really finished IMO.

Running Vault of Larin Karr I changed the map scale of the Quail Valley from 5 miles per (very small) hex to 1 mile/hex, which puts the 3 villages around 14 miles apart rather than 70 miles(!) , and a total area ca 25 x 20 miles, which is ok for a short term sandbox.

I ran a successful Sandbox campaign with a map scale 10 miles per cm (or hex), taking a bunch of short adventures and creating a map around them is a technique I find always works very well.  The scale was big enough to include cities and wide-ranging adventures.

I ran another semi-sandbox at 5 miles/hex, around 75 x 60 miles, which was ok for a more focused feel.

You can do 'starter' settings for say 3 levels of play at 1 mile/hex or 2 miles/hex, and a Western-type setting with lots of roaming at up to 12 or 15 miles/hex.  So there's no clear rule, it depends what you're aiming for.  If you're just starting out I recommend trying 5 miles per hex, it seemed to give the best compromise between space and detail.  Another option is to set a small sandbox, say 1 mile/hex or 25 mile-across, for low level play within a large 15 miles/hex, or 375 mile across, sandbox designed for mid to high level play.

Edit: With Rob Conley's Points of Light sandboxes I sometimes convert them from 5 miles/hex to 8 miles/hex.  They are great examples for inspiration even if you don't use them as written.


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## Philotomy Jurament (Dec 13, 2009)

GlassJaw said:


> I've started to brainstorm on some ideas but one thing that always throws me for a loop is how big "the map" should be.  Obviously I'm not going to map out the whole world but is there a good rule of thumb for sizing the campaign area?



Here's Rob Conley's rendition of the original _Outdoor Survival_ map.  Here's what Gygax says in original D&D vol. III, _The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures_:


			
				Underworld & Wilderness Adventures said:
			
		

> The so-called Wilderness really consists of unexplored land, cities, and castles…Off-hand adventures in the wilderness are made on the OUTDOOR SURVIVAL playing board (explained below)…OUTDOOR SURVIVAL has a playing board perfect for general adventures…



Of course, nothing says that you have to use the _Outdoor Survival_ map, or even one of similar scope.  But something on that scale does provide a decent starting point, I think.



> The second question is how detailed the scale should be.  Should each hex represent 1 mile, 5 miles, 10 miles?  Realistically, at what point will the world seem too "cluttered"?



5 miles is the traditional scale for this kind of map (the original D&D wilderness movement rates are given in numbers of 5 mile hexes).  That scale seems to be good for "hex crawling," although that also depends on the method of travel.  Travel by river or by flying can quickly cover many hexes.

There's a series of articles in _Fight On_ that offers some advice and guidance on creating a wilderness (including stuff like how many towns and such).  I don't remember exactly which issues, though.  I think you can check out their tables of contents (as well as some sample pages) on Lulu, though.


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## Philotomy Jurament (Dec 13, 2009)

If your players are trekking through the wilderness, this formula might come in handy as a sighting guideline:

square root (1.5 * height in ft.) = horizon distance in miles


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## Gilladian (Dec 13, 2009)

You've gotten some good advice so far. I especially like the idea of using a plastic hex grid overlay on a hand-drawn map. I've done that and it is very nice. It stops everyone from saying automatically "we've been through that hex!".

Even numbered miles for hexes break down easier for figuring out how far people can move, usually. So 6 miles is a good round figure.

You probably do want about a week's travel distance mapped in every direction. IF there are good roads in all directions, that can be quite a large distance. 20 miles travel a day with good mounts on a good road is not impossible. However, that assumes pretty focused travel.

Towns or villages will be no further than a day's walk apart. Market towns will be no further than two days brisk travel apart. Cities are a bit more variable, but probably no more than a week's walk between them. Less if there is frequent trade/good roads/resources.

People who don't travel much generally know only what is in their daily "zone of influence". They may have heard of things outside that area, but they'll be going on common gossip. Details can be QUITE wrong! More traveled folk will have a better idea of things in places they've been, but may still be quite wrong about what is just beyond it.

A monster's range depends on its mode of travel and diet. Herbivorous tree dwellers aren't going very far each day, most likely. Carnivorous flyers can move a tremendous distance in a few minutes. You just have to play it by ear. Mostly, a monster will influence the region for a day's travel (for him/it) around his lair.


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## TheNovaLord (Dec 13, 2009)

Philotomy Jurament said:


> Here's Rob Conley's rendition of the original _Outdoor Survival_ map. .




ooh, i do like that


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## Umbran (Dec 13, 2009)

First off, I will make my usual mention - that this is going to be a sandbox game has no bearing on the question.  

From there, when I run a game the answer is simple - the map has to cover the area you expect the PCs to roam around in.  Some entire campaigns never leave a single city, others roam multiple worlds.  This is one of those things the DM gets to set for his game, and some of the flavor of your campaign will come out of that choice.


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## Raven Crowking (Dec 13, 2009)

Umbran said:


> First off, I will make my usual mention - that this is going to be a sandbox game has no bearing on the question.
> 
> From there, when I run a game the answer is simple - the map has to cover the area you expect the PCs to roam around in.  Some entire campaigns never leave a single city, others roam multiple worlds.  This is one of those things the DM gets to set for his game, and some of the flavor of your campaign will come out of that choice.




He looks, but he does not see.

In a sandbox game, the defining crteria is that where the PCs roam is *not* one of those things the DM gest to set for his game, except in the most basic of ways.

In an AP, you need to develop no more than the areas that appear in the AP.  In a sandbox, you need to at least sketchily develop any area that the PCs could reach.  Obviously, areas closer to the starting area are better to develop more fully, but there is nothing in a sandbox which prevents the PCs from heading 60 miles north or 2,000 miles south, apart from what they encounter en route.

Prepping for an upcoming sandbox game, I started with a 11 x 17 sheet on a scale of 1 hex = 60 miles.  I then decided where on that map I would like play to begin, and am in the process of creating nine 11 x 17 focus maps at a scale of 1 hex = 10 miles.  This is a good scale for general play.

Some areas need closer focus, such as areas around major known dungeons, the PC's starting area, etc.  These are scaled down to 1 hex = 1 mile, on 8 1/2 x 11 paper, three-holed to fit into a GM's notebook.

At each scale, the types of features shown are different.

1 hex = 60 miles is just to give me an idea of what the world is like, so that I know what countries are where, what sorts of stories travellers might tell, etc.

1 hex = 10 miles is a general game play scale, where major sites, major lairs, major towns, villages, and cities, etc., can be marked.  Smaller lairs, and smaller adventure sites might not be marked.

1 hex = 1 mile is a good scale for focused play, where the players will spend a lot of time within the vicinity of a feature (such as a starting village, a major dungeon, etc.), and allows the GM to include outlying features that would be lost on a larger scale, as well as minor lairs that might cause PCs problems (or provide opportunities) as they explore the area's main feature.


RC


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## Mark (Dec 13, 2009)

Umbran said:


> First off, I will make my usual mention - that this is going to be a sandbox game has no bearing on the question.
> 
> From there, when I run a game the answer is simple - the map has to cover the area you expect the PCs to roam around in.  Some entire campaigns never leave a single city, others roam multiple worlds.  This is one of those things the DM gets to set for his game, and some of the flavor of your campaign will come out of that choice.





The DM doesn't restrict where the PC will roam in a sandbox game which is precisely why that has bearing on the question.  One answer is to start with a player map that has no grid (as suggested above) and expound on areas that are explored with more detailed maps as players settle in and are attracted to specific areas.  A lot of design for a sandbox setting comes after the players have immersed themselves and made some choices.  Be ready to wing it in the early going and to switch gears later on if the players take left turns.  Doing too much advance work can be the downfall of some DMs trying to run a sandbox because they can lead themself to feel that they need to steer the players toward areas they have detailed.


*edit* ninja'd by RC


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## Umbran (Dec 13, 2009)

The word "sandbox" includes in it the word "box".

In the archetypal sandbox/status-quo game, the GM presents the players with a pre-populated world, and tells the players they can go anywhere within it, and do what they want.  There is no predetermined plot they are intended to follow.  That is the operational heart and essence of the sandbox, as far as I am concerned.

"World" is an arbitrary thing.  There is no particular reason why it must be an entire spherical planetary body.  Or a whole continent.  Or a whole nation.  Or a single plane of existence.  As a practical matter, a particular GM can only come up with a finite amount of material with which to pre-populate his world. That material has to be spread over some particular area.  Even if the GM intends to allow the players to leave that area later, the initial map ought to contain that area that is pre-populated - the area the GM intends them to work in initially.

There is nothing wrong with a GM saying, "My sandbox is this one city - please come and play in it."


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## Herobizkit (Dec 13, 2009)

Also, there's no reason why your sandbox campaign can not also be a "points-of-light" campaign.

When you play online games such as Bardur's Gate, and you have to get from one "area" to the next, does it matter how far A to B is?  To me, all that matter is that you got there unhindered (or not) and you're off on your next adventure.

Maps are useful for describing where places are in relation to one another, but the only reason to know how far is if it's important... and that's only if things are moving to/from an area that could affect it somehow.


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## Mark (Dec 13, 2009)

Umbran said:


> The word "sandbox" includes in it the word "box".





Not in the sense that it is meant to limit the in-game exploration, just in that it is a world within a world (our world).


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## Vegepygmy (Dec 13, 2009)

Umbran said:


> There is nothing wrong with a GM saying, "My sandbox is this one city - please come and play in it."



I concur. Insisting that it's not a "sandbox" unless the players have some inalienable right to explore outside the DM-defined boundaries is silly.

But if it will avoid pointless arguing, I'll happily call my campaign a "quasi-sandbox."

@OP: Some food for thought here: GROGNARDIA: Small is Beautiful


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## ashockney (Dec 14, 2009)

*Sandbox*

I've been running a 4e hybrid sandbox game the last several months.  

At the players request, we chose our sandbox to be Skullport, in the Forgotten Realms.  The players found it, and the unique characters they could develop in that realm compelling for storytelling.

I broke the city into a 5x5 hex grid map, and developed a random "events" generator.  I took this idea from the guys at Critical Hits.  Prior to each session, I roll up random events in that occur in the sandbox, which the players can choose to engage or completely ignore.  They've found it to commonly be a "path of least resistance" particularly to information gathering and discovery.  It also has given them a little "spark" to tie in their story and directly influence the outcome of their sandbox.  

It is clear to me from running the game, that I think the "box" will grow, once we hit Paragon.  Perhaps into something as big as "the North" or "The Underdark North" once we break through.  Their individual abilities and accomplishments will outgrow this size, or they would be in direct conflict with all the major players of the city (who are really, really powerful). 

So far this has worked out really well. 

I think, in summary, the answer to the question is that the sandbox need to "scale" to the campaign, but that in the "heroic" tier, something about the size of a city, with perhaps 200 or so "touchpoints" or locations to choose to interact with.


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## rounser (Dec 14, 2009)

> He does go into scale and one thing he states is this: DON'T use hexes as they create the illusion that once someone has been in the hex then they have seen everything.



Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  

So for sake of someone mistakenly thinking they've properly explored an area, dispose of the most powerful device available for making sure discrete areas of wilderness end up containing something of interest?

I use numbered half mile hexes in the microcosmic setting of Thunder Rift.  Whether PCs discover the contents of a hex depends on the nature of the contents (i.e. a tower on the plains is more obvious than a hidden lizardman burrow in the swamp), and whether they're actively exploring, hurrying from A to B, or actively trying to avoid encounters.  If one of the latter, there's an understanding that the hex isn't fully explored (rate of movement slows for the former).

I'm surprised at this advice, as I thought this guy was supposed to be a sort of sandbox guru.


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## harpy (Dec 14, 2009)

I'm in the process of setting up a "West Marches" sandbox game, but with three DM's diving up the territory so that we can rotate through as both DM's and players.

We're kind of going back and forth on scale, but we're going to be using hexes for the DM maps, as we can't be expected to have a computer on hand for vector graphics, plus counting hexes is pretty easy.

I'm kind of liking the idea of having half-mile hexes for the specific territories.  In part because it feels like half a mile is basically as far as someone could typically see in a general rolling hills countryside setting, with trees and hills breaking up the horizon.

That way I can have the players tell me where they are going and I just follow them through the hexes on my map, and in many instances unless they pass through the hex they won't be seeing a lot of landmarks.  Of course this varies with elevation and what the landmark is, but house size structures in general would require you to be right in the vicinity.

Further, I can put little details in, groves of trees, small hills, streams and the like.  I can fill up the travel with detailed descriptions.

I might bump it up to 1 mile hexes if the half mile is simply too big of a map to handle.  I've got to do some experimentation to see what works best.


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## Shades of Green (Dec 14, 2009)

Thank you all for the info and the links - I find them very useful 

I'm thinking about creating my own sandbox using a 30x30 hex grid and 5 (or 6) miles per hex. The idea is to have a long, somewhat wide, snaking valley in the mountains, with most settlements being inside the valley while the mountains being a more dangerous area (and also much colder - the higher parts of them frozen year-long). The upper end of the valley, reaching a mountain pass and a frozen lost city, will also be frozen year-long, while the lower parts of the valley will have snow-free spring and summer allowing for agriculture to take place.

So early-level play will take place in the summer of the lower valley in relatively good climate conditions and with relatively low-level monsters, and in higher levels the player could scale the mountains or go higher into the valley and eventually reach the frozen lost city.


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## S'mon (Dec 14, 2009)

150x150 miles at 5 miles/hex is a good scale for a sandbox that can accommodate low to mid level play; in 4e probably the whole of the 1-10 Heroic Tier.  There's space for a BBEG's Fortress of Evil as well as a home base, a large town or two, allies' homes, mysterious forests, swamps and plains, etc.

Re use of hexes - I say use them as a GM mapping tool, but don't tell the players - "You are in hex 0820, to the west is hex 0720..." - describe the terrain naturally.    I don't like giving players blank/undetailed hexmaps as player mapping tools, for me it damages immersion.  A player map should either be something the PC could find in-game, or just let them access the GM map if necessary, but don't refer to it in-play.


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## Ydars (Dec 14, 2009)

Ben Robbins also stated that the PCs should make their own map, and that the GM should not correct it, even when it is inaccurate. as that is how it would really be. 

One of the things I find inspiring is the way he describes how PCs would navigate. Instead of allowing them to say "we head north" he would actually describe the terrain and ask the PCs how they would navigate and which landmark they would make for. This really hit me hard because it is exactly how we navigate when we go riding in Mongolia. It would also really help to fix certain locations in the PC's minds and would help to make things like rivers and other locations a very important means of coralling players in the early days of the campaign: I would put all the low level areas near a small river, to make them easier to navigate to and all the higher level areas places that can only be found by having a fairly good knowledge of the geography (or by blundering around which is dangerous).

Oh and for those of you surprised that Ben Robbins does't like hexes: he is a sandbox guru but is not at all old school. He sort of invented sandbox again without ever knowing how it was done back in the day. Of course you can use hexes if you like, I just don't like them particularly. They are convienient in the same way that McDonalds is convienient: in a horrible, "I can't be bothered to prep properly" sort of way. I want my maps to show "Scale-back ridge" and "Mossy tarn" and the "Hill of stones" and for that you need to be able to zoom in with a vector map. You don't need to be an artist, you can just use blobs as the PCs should NEVER be allowed to see the map: exploration is HALF the fun. However, YMMV!!


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## Philotomy Jurament (Dec 14, 2009)

Herobizkit said:


> Also, there's no reason why your sandbox campaign can not also be a "points-of-light" campaign.
> 
> When you play online games such as Bardur's Gate, and you have to get from one "area" to the next, does it matter how far A to B is?  To me, all that matter is that you got there unhindered (or not) and you're off on your next adventure.



I use "points of light" in a different manner.  To me, it means little islands of relative civilization and safety amidst the unknowns and danger of wilderness.  This is pretty much the default setup of the "wilderness" in the original D&D books.

For example, a typical domain might include a lord's castle and a handful of attendant villages, with the influence of the castles stretching in a twenty 20-30 mile radius.  (The villages would be within that radius.)  Traveling within that radius is relatively safe.  

There might be a handful of other such "points of light" on the map.  However, the wilderness area between them is just as important as the points of light, themselves.  In fact, without the "darkness" of the wilderness, their significance as "points of light" is completely lost.  It absolutely *does* matter how far it is from point of light A to point of light B.  And getting there can be an adventure, in itself.

The thing about a sandbox game is that the setting isn't just a backdrop for your adventures.  Instead, the setting is an integral part of the game (in a "gamist" way, not in a story setting way).  In a real sense, you "play" the setting.  With that kind of approach, glossing over things like distance, travel, time and resource management isn't desirable.

This kind of approach is especially satisfying when incorporating the traditional "end game" that takes place around name level in the TSR editions.  Setting up a stronghold isn't just a cherry on the top of your character's story, but a gamist accomplishment, in and of itself.  In fact, you might even say it's a way to "win" (not exclusive other ways to enjoy the game or succeed at it, of course).  When the game setting has real context and meaning in game terms (time, distance, population/military/income resources, etc), the "end game" of setting up a stronghold and becoming a lord among men becomes a satisfying game accomplishment.  (Also, while the "end game" only fully develops when the PCs have become more powerful, it can start at the very beginning.)


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## S'mon (Dec 14, 2009)

Ydars said:


> Of course you can use hexes if you like, I just don't like them particularly. They are convienient in the same way that McDonalds is convienient: in a horrible, "I can't be bothered to prep properly" sort of way. I want my maps to show "Scale-back ridge" and "Mossy tarn" and the "Hill of stones" and for that you need to be able to zoom in with a vector map.




I don't understand this.

1.  You can have more than one item in a hex!  If the map is hand drawn, there is no limitation for use of hexes.  Only in a 1-symbol-per-hex program is there a limitation.

2.  Hex maps make it very easy to zoom in, eg take a 15mile hex and draw it out at 1 mile per hex.

For me, the big advantage of hexes is that you have scale right there on the map, without needing a ruler.  And it looks far better than squares, which are ugly and distracting IMO.

I would certainly agree though that it works best to draw a map freeform first on blank paper, then overlay the hexes second.


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## rounser (Dec 14, 2009)

> Of course you can use hexes if you like, I just don't like them particularly. They are convienient in the same way that McDonalds is convienient: in a horrible, "I can't be bothered to prep properly" sort of way. I want my maps to show "Scale-back ridge" and "Mossy tarn" and the "Hill of stones" and for that you need to be able to zoom in with a vector map.



Not really seeing it.  Hill of stones is hex 2301, scale-back ridge hexes 1302, 1402 and 1503 etc. and has the advantage of encouraging such detail if you use a small enough scale per hex.  1306 has a magic well, 1709 hollowed trees with corpses in them, 1611 a statue in a creek with a hidden treasure cache etc.  And it's definitely prepping properly, don't know where you're coming from there.


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## Garmorn (Dec 14, 2009)

I plan on using a slightly different approach.  I have a mapping program that allows me to do different scale maps all from a single base map.  The one that the players will use for traveling (and see if the find a map to buy will not have any hexes or other things.  The scale will fit what ever is needed at the time.
A second will have all of the information that they don't have and as they explore I can move information from one layer on the map to theirs.


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## harpy (Dec 14, 2009)

Just out of curiosity, is there a vector program that would let you have a "digital ruler" for distance?  Something that can be set to show real world distances and not pixels or inches?

Basically, whatever zoom I'm at I could then just click and drag and get a measurement in miles/meters that is to scale at whatever zoom I'm at.

I have no problem using a vector map, as long as it can be tailored to fit the needs of the game.  I don't want to be making calculations all the time.


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## Ydars (Dec 14, 2009)

I just make a ruler as an object and then can move it round the map and rotate etc as I need to. If you are mapping as much distance as some people here then you will need to make several rulers for different scales.

I guess I hate hexes for fantasy because they look so SF: great for Traveller but don't feel right to me for D&D.


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## Raven Crowking (Dec 14, 2009)

@ the OP:

Even if you are running a limited sandbox, such as a city setting, the types of maps and information you need are different than those for running an AP.  It is basic to the sandbox that the PCs can go anywhere within it, and explore anywhere within it.  In the case of a city, you should have the floorplans of interesting "targets" ready, simply because you know that the PCs _*probably*_ will go there.  I am talking about the kinds of places that thieves and rogues tend to consider "marks", as well as the sewer system, City Hall (or equivilent), parkland (for druids and rangers), etc.

In an AP, you need only detail the areas that are "part of the adventure" -- the rest of the map can be fuzzy at the edges.

Consider also bounding your sandbox with hard edges.....places that are difficult for the PCs to traverse.  Eventually, of course, the PCs will traverse them anyway, expanding the sandbox (there is a "box" in sandbox, but it is not absolute), but you will at least have some time/notice to prep new areas.

Also consider having gates/portals to other parts of your world.....i.e., other limited sandboxes that the PCs can explore in addition to the main sandbox.  Consider them as being akin to sublevels in an Old School dungeon.  Thus, in a temperate zone campaign, the Gate of the Palm might lead to a desert oasis and the ruins thereabout.  Of course, the PCs might choose to stay there, changing what the "main" sandbox is.  As long as you have prepped these areas for their exploration, it is all good.

I should also mention that your sandbox probably should have a "default adventure location".  One of the advantages of the Old School Megadungeon is that, if the players have no other ideas, they always have somewhere to go/something to explore/some place to loot.  Consider locating one or more prominent ruins, dungeons, or other scary places for this purpose.


RC


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## rounser (Dec 14, 2009)

Along with hexes, another good cheat for sandboxes is to use geomorphs for urban areas.  The Lankhmar: City of Adventure book had them, as does the dungeon magazine with the adventure Goblin Fever in it.

This way, you can detail a geomorph or eight, flip them round and change the names of NPCs and shops when reusing the geomorph but keep the underlying floorplans and adventure hooks and encounters until encountered or used.

Come to think of it, I know at least one dungeon geomorph product was released, which could also have sandbox prep possibilities...never seen them though, are they any good?


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## SkidAce (Dec 14, 2009)

harpy said:


> Just out of curiosity, is there a vector program that would let you have a "digital ruler" for distance?  Something that can be set to show real world distances and not pixels or inches?
> 
> Basically, whatever zoom I'm at I could then just click and drag and get a measurement in miles/meters that is to scale at whatever zoom I'm at.
> 
> I have no problem using a vector map, as long as it can be tailored to fit the needs of the game.  I don't want to be making calculations all the time.




Campaign Cartographer 3 does all of the above.  It is a CAD based engine and its power used to be a barrier to entry, however, excellent tools and tutorials have made it very easy to create good maps.

You can measure between two points, along a path, overlay hexes or squares with a couple of clicks.


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## Grimstaff (Dec 14, 2009)

I prefer to use "Leagues" as opposed to "miles" as its easier to track character movement; a League is one hour's travel (roughly 2.5 or 3 miles). For a regional map I like 5-league hexes and will blow up from there to 1-league hexes or out to 40-league hexes as needed. Maybe its just my poor math skills, but I like being able to glance at the map and say stuff like "Its about a six hour hike to the Tower of Enslade". 

For an example of how I detail my hexes look here - link.


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## Shades of Green (Dec 14, 2009)

What do you think would serve better as a sandbox: a winding, snaking (but several hexes wide) mountain valley surrounded by frozen mountains, or more open area? Or a system of several valleys?

Note that the scale I'm thinking about is 30x30 hexes with 5-6 miles per hex for to total area of 150 by 150 miles or 180 by 180 miles.


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## Mark (Dec 14, 2009)

Shades of Green said:


> What do you think would serve better as a sandbox: a winding, snaking (but several hexes wide) mountain valley surrounded by frozen mountains, or more open area? Or a system of several valleys?
> 
> Note that the scale I'm thinking about is 30x30 hexes with 5-6 miles per hex for to total area of 150 by 150 miles or 180 by 180 miles.





Let the players give you your cues.  Have a casual session with the group to discuss the new campaign and see what sort of exploration chops they have.  As mentioned above, starting off with a non-gridded map (even if you have an overlay for the DM that includes a grid) is a good way to really guage their interest in sandboxing and how far they will go.  It helps keep the focus on adventure and off of clearing hexes.


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## Raven Crowking (Dec 14, 2009)

I'd either follow Mark's suggestion or go with several (interconnected) valleys.  I would make some valleys much harder to reach than others!


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## Philotomy Jurament (Dec 14, 2009)

The easier it is to create a "flowchart" of the possible routes the PCs can take, the less like a "sandbox" it is.


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## weem (Dec 14, 2009)

S'mon said:


> ...A player map should either be something the PC could find in-game, or just let them access the GM map if necessary, but don't refer to it in-play...




You might dig this then - an early version of the campaign/setting map I drew up for the players (on the back of an opened up brown paper bag, hehe)...







...but I agree as well - for immersion-sake, I like more abstract maps that the players can add notes to if they want. I tell them right up front, this is not to scale (though I have one done in hexes using Hexographer).


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## rogueattorney (Dec 14, 2009)

The OP appears to be from Rhode Island, which is ironic, because I tend to say an area the size of R.I. is the perfect starter area for a campaign.  I also think of it in terms of four Midwestern U.S. counties.  World and continental maps are great, but for practical purposes, to see what the pcs actually have to work with in their area, a smaller campaign map is also needed.

The maps in Rob Conley's two Points of Light books are perfect in this regard, and even if you don't use the campaigns themselves, they're good for just seeing how it's done.

Google maps and other Internet tools can be used for coming up with nice "closer up" maps of towns and other geographic features you want to high light.  I use Genisham from the first PoL book's Borderlands section as my home base, and the map I used was a little Illinois town on the south shore of a lake. Printed it out, traced it on graph paper.  Altered as needed.

Populate your town with shops and interesting people.  Come up with about a dozen interesting out-of-town encounter areas - lairs, castes, other towns, etc. - a briefly detail them, then place your dungeon somewhere nearby with a couple levels to explore, and go!  Always leave room to add on.


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## Shades of Green (Dec 15, 2009)

The reasons I was thinking of a valley were two-fold. First, I wanted a setting where part of the setting is frozen year-long, while other parts thaw (and thus allow agriculture) in the spring and the summer, all while both parts should be contained within the same 180 by 180 mile area. Second, I wanted to keep the sand in a box of sorts, with high mountains serving as a boundary, at least in the lower levels.

A wider, bowl-shaped (of sorts) valley may also be a good option... Or a group of islands in a cold sea (with a larger scale for the overall map while each island would get its own 6-miles-hex map); the northern islands would be frozen year-long, while the southern islands will have a cold winter and a growing season in the summer.


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## Philotomy Jurament (Dec 15, 2009)

Islands (or even a single large island) can put a cool spin on a sandbox, since it gives the "player choice" aspect something like a turbo-boost.  You can even set it up so that the PCs choose their "starting point" if you begin the campaign with them in a ship, making landfall where they choose to begin.  If you set them up with a "coastal" ship rather than a truly seaworthy vessel, that keeps them from saying "hey, we head for the open, uncharted ocean" right away.


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## Shades of Green (Dec 15, 2009)

If I'll create my campaign in a wide cluster of islands, I'll probably use 30 miles per hex for the big overview map, and 6 miles per hex for the higher-res individual island maps. The idea is to have the northernmost islands frozen year-long, while the southern islands would have a more temperate climate in the spring and the summer, so there should be some serious distance (unless the southern islands would be warmed by an ocean current coming from the south).

The intention is to allow "island hopping" with a small coastal ship or sailing boat, while leaving the sandbox to the open ocean would require, for the very least, an expensive longship and a trained crew, and even then would be quite risky; for really going deep into the open ocean, a carrack or caravel would be needed. All of these options, as well as magical transportation, are expensive and thus limited mostly to the higher levels.


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## Shades of Green (Dec 16, 2009)

I'm really starting to like that big map/small maps split ideas. This way I can have both medium-distance water travel and shorter-distance (and more detailed) land exploration in the same campaign.

I'm thinking about 6 miles per hex for the high-res, small-scale focused maps. So what would be a good hex scale for the low-res big overview map? 18 miles per hex? 24? 30?


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## Shades of Green (Dec 16, 2009)

Regarding the OP, a good suggestion I've heared for larger-scale maps is having one hex per distance covered by a day of foot travel in good conditions (24 miles in 3E, 18 miles in BFRPG). A good 30x30 hex map could give you a 724x724 mile map (3E) or a 540x540 mile map (BFRPG).


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## S'mon (Dec 16, 2009)

Well, I use 50 miles/hex for my continental map of my Ea/Lands of the Old Empire setting, then 10 miles/hex for the next level down.  30 and 6 should also work well, but I find 50 mile hexes are ideal for grand tactical stuff like monthly troop movements.


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## aboyd (Dec 17, 2009)

This will be long.  I don't want it to be long, but I know up front I'm going to give you a brain dump from my current sandbox campaign.  So, apologies.  Or "you're welcome" if you're into this sort of thing.



GlassJaw said:


> I'm not going to map out the whole world but is there a good rule of thumb for sizing the campaign area?



I'm of the opinion that you should indeed map out the whole world, so that you know when to say to your players, "there isn't any more land."  Of course, eventually they'll be off in spaceships or spelljammers or something and it won't matter, but for the first huge chunk of the game, it matters a lot.

The good news is that this very big map can be very sloppy.  I can do a basic one in 5 minutes.  Just landforms will do it.  However, if you're feeling inspired (and you have the ability to reign yourself in before becoming overwhelmed), then getting general notes about each region is cool.  For example, knowing that the eastern portion of the map is frozen tundra populated by frost giants is very useful.  You don't need to stat up any creatures or even pick the areas of civilization (though you could), but it's always nice to give yourself a framework that will help you to wing it convincingly when the players suddenly go hundreds of miles off course on a whim (which they do).

Having said that, in my campaign, I use the giant Greyhawk poster map as my world map, but in terms of what the players do on a day-to-day basis, I focus on the region around Rel Astra.  Here I'll attach a tiny little portion of the big map, which I scanned in and used from levels 1 through 6:







Some things to note about the map.  First, it's a modified scan -- the Hightower Tor, Zolmik's Retreat, Almack, Seawell, and the lighthouse were all added in with the Gimp (a Photoshop-like tool).  The areas south of Rel Astra would have been very unpopulated otherwise.

The second thing to note is that the hexes are _huge_ -- 30 miles each.  I handwave them to be even slightly bigger -- 32 miles each.  That's because in D&D 3.5 (which I use), 32 miles is the normal daily movement speed for people on horses.  So it's easy to say "1 hex per day."

Third, I _like_ that things are so far apart.  I really don't like 4th edition much, but the "points of light" idea was a prizewinner for me.  I _want_ my game world's towns to feel like isolated little points of civilization, fighting back the monster hordes.  So going from Rel Astra to Almack is about a 3 day ride, and I want that ride to be _scary_ -- maybe not lots of wandering monsters (it gets boring) but 1 big problem?  You bet.

(That's what the "Hightower Tor" was -- that's the free 1st-level module on the Wizard's site that has a zombie hobgoblin to fight.  Well, after my players cleared it, I had the local hobgoblin tribe assume that their burial grounds were deliberately desecrated by Rel Astra.  While the PCs gained levels 2 & 3, I had the tribe gathering there, rebuilding, and readying to launch a war which the PCs could have stumbled upon and stopped.  However, around level 4 they began moving by boat, missed it entirely, and so eventually I launched the war without them, resolved it, and just had it be a news/gossip item that they could hear about.  That's the sandbox for ya.)

OK, well, I still have tons to add and this is already far too long.  I'll start a second post.  More maps.  Hang on.


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## aboyd (Dec 17, 2009)

...Continued from above...



GlassJaw said:


> The second question is how detailed the scale should be.  Should each hex represent 1 mile, 5 miles, 10 miles?



So I already showed you my main map for the game.  Now I'll show you three variations I used, which address your question.  First is simply the same map but with a few new areas (Foretown to the north of Rel Astra, plus the druids & temple as listed in the legend on the right), used by the players at levels 7 & 8:






The point is that you can see how I'm fleshing it out as they play.  I do not need to obsessively map out _everything_ before the campaign even starts.  In fact, if you look closely at the forest near Rel Astra & the druids, you'll note that the forest has actually been redrawn to be closer to Rel Astra (I just used the clone tool in the Gimp, which is why the forest seems to fit in so seamlessly).  I am shameless about retconning things if it works for the plot.  I wanted the druids within 15 miles of Rel Astra, so they were.

Next map shows a zoomed-in view of the coast from Seawell to the lighthouse -- that tiny little dot on the big map is this huge thing that they played on:






I made that map using the free AutoRealm (tutorials here).  It only took about 30 minutes.  The Pooters, Piranha, and Peccary are territories of monsters from the Tome of Horrors.  This zoomed-in view was useful for about 3 game sessions.  That's how long it took my players to solve the lighthouse module.

Finally, here is an even more zoomed in map.  This was used for 2 game sessions, and is actually drawn on a battlemat.  I had the players use 1 mini to represent the whole party.  They could move 5 hexes per turn, which amounted to a half-mile.  On the lower left is Foretown, almost off the edge of the photo.  The short black marks are 1-mile markers.  The green weedy stuff is the Lone Heath marshland.  The top right corner is a pyramid & blob (a lake) from the Sunken Ziggurat module.  Halfway down the right edge is a building (the Treasure of the Black Veils module).






*Most of the marshland was covered with sheets of paper at the start of the game session.*  I revealed things only as they got near.  I put that extra lake between the two modules just to throw them off.  It isn't significant at all.  It's just water.

So they moved around, found some stuff, and generally had fun.  Once they actually stumbled into a module area, I had a 2nd battlemat with the module floorplan.  At that point they all broke out their minis and we had at it.  

(By the way, that pyramid in the top right corner is the module that has now turned into the apocalypse in my game.)



GlassJaw said:


> What is a realistic area of a creature's hunting territory?



How far away can the creature move and still get back to its lair for sleep?  That's how far.  In other words, not very far for most land-bound creatures.  However, note that this assumes we're talking about creatures with a lair.  A young bear leaving home can search hundreds of miles before finding a place to settle.



GlassJaw said:


> How far will a common folk's knowledge of the surrounding area be?  Will they know about far-away places, ruins, rumors, etc?



If you're trying to base this off of our world hundreds/thousands of years ago, then the answer is that historically people didn't know much at all.  There will be exceptions -- adventurers, sailors, cartographers, and the nobles who underwrite them -- but most normal folk will live their whole lives and die within a 15 mile area.  Their knowledge of other things will be minimal.  D&D 3.5 actually does an OK job here with mechanics to back that up.  The knowledge skills (which would apply to what people know of the area) cannot be used untrained, or at least not well.  The PHB says that without points in a knowledge skill, people cannot know more than common knowledge (DC 10 stuff -- the easy obvious things).  Since most farmers will be investing skill points into Profession (farming) or the like, the odds that any would have enough points to know _anything_ about outlying areas is pretty minuscule.

Anyway, I hope all this helped you to have an idea about how I run my sandbox.  Maybe there is an idea or two that you can build upon?  Have fun.


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## GlassJaw (Dec 17, 2009)

I stepped away from this thread for a few days and just took a look - wow!  So much good stuff in here.  When I have an hour or so, I'm going to start from the top again.



> Or "you're welcome" if you're into this sort of thing.




Thanks boyd!  I just skimmed your posts but that's some great stuff.  Much appreciated.

Now I need to go block some time off on my calendar...


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## Philotomy Jurament (Dec 18, 2009)

Shades of Green said:


> If I'll create my campaign in a wide cluster of islands, I'll probably use 30 miles per hex for the big overview map, and 6 miles per hex for the higher-res individual island maps.



That sounds reasonable.  It's also a perfect match for Gary's advice.  Gary describes a "referee's map" at 5 miles per hex scale that shows a starting village, the location of the nearby dungeon/ruin, and the wilderness area immediately surrounding these locations.  He also mentions a "campaign map" with a 20 to 40 miles per hex scale (and specifically mentions a 30 mile hex campaign map in the 1e DMG section on PCs developing territory -- incidentally, a 20-30 mile radius is the standard area that a domain "civilizes").

Also in the 1e DMG (the section on adventures in the outdoors), Gary mentions that a campaign hex of 20-40 miles can be divided into smaller hexes for more detailed maps: 5 hexes across the middle or 5 hexes per hex face, as desired.  Under that scheme, if your campaign map is at a 30 miles per hex scale, that means your more detailed "referee's map" of a specific area would be at 6 miles per hex.  Just right, eh?  

As a cherry on top, the outdoor movement rates given in the 1e DMG list normal movement afoot with a light burden as 30 miles per day.


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## Philotomy Jurament (Dec 18, 2009)

30 and 6 works out pretty well in leagues, too, if you're using a 3 mile league.  On the 6 mile hex map, each hex is two leagues (i.e. a two hour walk for normal terrain).  On the 30 miles hex map, each hex is 10 leagues (10 hours walk for normal terrain).


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## Shades of Green (Dec 18, 2009)

I'm using BFRPG, in which a lightly armored human can cover 18 miles per 8-hour day of walking over good terrain; that'll mean three 6-mile hexes per day in the open, or less for more difficult terrain. I'm even thinking about making random encounters per hex instead of three times a day; the more distance you cover, the higher the chances are you'll run into something or someone.

The 30-mile hex would fit some of the boats from BFRPG in daily movement.


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