# Belt of Dwarvenkind - Best Deal Ever?



## the_mighty_agrippa (Jun 18, 2007)

Belt of Dwarvenkind
This belt gives the wearer a +4 competence bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks as they relate to dealing with dwarves, a +2 competence bonus on similar checks when dealing with gnomes and halflings, and a -2 competence penalty on similar checks when dealing with anyone else. The wearer can understand, speak, and read Dwarven. If the wearer is not a dwarf, he gains 60-foot darkvision, dwarven stonecunning, a +2 enhancement bonus to Constitution, and a +2 resistance bonus on saves against poison, spells, or spell-like effects. 

Moderate divination; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item, tongues, creator must be a dwarf; Price 14,900 gp; Weight 1 lb. 

This is one of the best bang-for-the buck items in the game.  Who cares if your fighter with a Charisma dump stat starts acting like a dwarf (which is missing from the SRD, so no penalty?)?

Compare it to just to the Belt of Endurance and the Goggles of Night.  Those are 16,000 gold together, provide no resistance bonuses or racial abilities and take up two item slots.

Wowza.


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## The Blow Leprechaun (Jun 18, 2007)

the_mighty_agrippa said:
			
		

> Belt of Dwarvenkind
> This belt gives the wearer a +4 competence bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks as they relate to dealing with dwarves, a +2 competence bonus on similar checks when dealing with gnomes and halflings, and a -2 competence penalty on similar checks when dealing with anyone else.



In a city campaign, that -2 could really kill you. I'm playing a fighter in the Shackled City atm, and I had to roll a miracle DC 15 Diplomacy check to save the campaign (pretty much) - if I'd been wearing this belt, I'd have failed it (only rolled a 16!).

Sometimes even the fighter has to make nice


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## Angerland (Jun 18, 2007)

or you could play a dwarf and get most of the same benefits.... I'm just saying.


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## szilard (Jun 18, 2007)

the_mighty_agrippa said:
			
		

> This is one of the best bang-for-the buck items in the game.  Who cares if your fighter with a Charisma dump stat starts acting like a dwarf (which is missing from the SRD, so no penalty?)?




Of course... then you can't wear a belt of giant strength....

-Stuart


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## Goolpsy (Jun 18, 2007)

But not the ekstra Feat for being human


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## IanB (Jun 18, 2007)

szilard said:
			
		

> Of course... then you can't wear a belt of giant strength....
> 
> -Stuart




Which isn't much of a cost for some characters. I have an enchanter who wears one of these; who needs charisma when you have _dominate person_?


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## Sejs (Jun 18, 2007)

The goggles of night are a massive ripoff.


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## szilard (Jun 18, 2007)

IanB said:
			
		

> Which isn't much of a cost for some characters. I have an enchanter who wears one of these; who needs charisma when you have _dominate person_?




Sure... but the example given was a fighter.

-Stuart


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## The Blow Leprechaun (Jun 18, 2007)

IanB said:
			
		

> Which isn't much of a cost for some characters. I have an enchanter who wears one of these; who needs charisma when you have _dominate person_?



Anyone playing below level 9, for starters...


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## IanB (Jun 18, 2007)

The Blow Leprechaun said:
			
		

> Anyone playing below level 9, for starters...




Oh, certainly - but get much below that and a 14k magic item is still a very significant cost.

As for the opportunity cost of a belt of giant strength, given that gauntlets of ogre power exist as a glove-slot strength item, getting some enchanted to +6 should be the same cost as an equivalent belt of giant strength.

That wacky extra-action-taking belt from MIC (belt of battle?) might be a more significant opportunity cost though, for any character.


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## Jack Simth (Jun 18, 2007)

Not the best deal ever - they are fixed bonuses, and it doesn't stack with much - but yes, a very good deal; one that, unless you're the party face, you're liable to hang onto for a long time.

For now, we'll say that the interaction bonuses and penalties cancel each other out (the penalties will usually come up more often than the bonuses, though).  So a non-dwarf gets:
60 foot darkvision
+2 Enhancement to Constitution
+2 Resistance to most the saves you'll make every day (spells, spell-like abilities, and poisons)

However, three levels later, you'll want to upgrade that.  The catch is that it's a specific item, and isn't upgradeable.  You can upgrade a +2 Cloak/Vest of Resistance to a +3, +4, or even a +5 for the right sum; the Belt of Dwarvenkind won't upgrade - and the two items don't stack.  If you get the Cloak/Vest of Resistance to get better saves (and most will want to, eventually) you lose the benefit of the resistance.  

Likewise with the Constitution bonus - +2 is great... but later, you'll want that Amulet of Health +6.  And the two don't stack.

Ultimately, all you're getting out of it is the darkvision ... and Goggles of Night are slighly cheaper.

Until that point, though, the Enhancement to Con is worth about 4k, the Resistance is worth a little under 4k (because it doesn't apply to, say, a pit trap, or a Basilisk's stare) and the Darkvision is technically worth about 12k - about 18 or 19 thousand gold in seperate items for 14,900 gp - and only one item slot, instead of three.


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## Hypersmurf (Jun 18, 2007)

Heh.  We're playing a gestalt barbarian campaign at the moment.  The DM declared that all characters would be illiterate unless they had wizard levels or spent 2 skill points on Literacy.

None of us took wizard levels, and none of us spent the points - so we had a party of illiterates.

This led to some problems... like the door marked with phrases like "Danger Danger Danger", and "Evil Lurks Within", and "Caution: Do Not Open" (we opened it), or the magical helm with the command word engraved inside, or the diary we found in the ruined dwarven fortress...

And then we found the Belt of Dwarvenkind, and the DM checked exactly what it does...

"... allows the wearer to speak, understand, *and read Dwarven*..."



-Hyp.


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## Mistwell (Jun 18, 2007)

Jack Simth said:
			
		

> Not the best deal ever - they are fixed bonuses, and it doesn't stack with much - but yes, a very good deal; one that, unless you're the party face, you're liable to hang onto for a long time.
> 
> For now, we'll say that the interaction bonuses and penalties cancel each other out (the penalties will usually come up more often than the bonuses, though).  So a non-dwarf gets:
> 60 foot darkvision
> ...




All magic items, even specific ones, are now upgradeable.  Some will argue that even before the Magic Item Compendium they were upgradeable, but after the MIC I think there is no question anymore on the subject.  You can add new abilities, or increase existing ones like the strength bonus.


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## Jack Simth (Jun 19, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> All magic items, even specific ones, are now upgradeable.  Some will argue that even before the Magic Item Compendium they were upgradeable, but after the MIC I think there is no question anymore on the subject.  You can add new abilities, or increase existing ones like the strength bonus.



Don't tell me they stopped calling the Magic Item Creation Guidlines "Guidelines" and the entire section about "Not all items adhere to these formulas directly"?

Not one I've got; but then, not all DM's permit all sources; so what's the cost difference between a standard Belt of Dwarvenkind with a +2 Con/+2 Resistance and an "upgraded" Belt of Dwarvenkind with a +4 Con/+4 Resistence?


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## Quartz (Jun 19, 2007)

Jack Simth said:
			
		

> The catch is that it's a specific item, and isn't upgradeable.




Who says you can't upgrade it?


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## Jack Simth (Jun 19, 2007)

Quartz said:
			
		

> Who says you can't upgrade it?



Put it another way....

If you're going from a Cloak of Resistance +2 to a Cloak of Resistance +3, on the other hand, there's no problem; the two are very easily defined, and they're the exact same type of item.  A Cloak of Resistance +3 has a market price of 9,000 gp; a Cloak of Resistance +2, 4,000 gp.  The cost to upgrade is the price difference - 5,000 gp to hire, or 2,500 gp and 200 xp to do yourself.  It's clearly laid out, no fuss, no muss.

If you're going from an Amulet of Health +2 to an Amulet of Health +4, on the other hand, there's no problem; the two are very easily defined, and they're the exact same type of item.  An Amulet of Health +2 has a market price of 4,000 gp; an Amulet of Health +4, 16,000 gp.  The cost to upgrade is the price difference - 12,000 gp to hire, or 6,000 gp and 480 xp to do yourself.  It's clearly laid out, no fuss, no muss.

The Belt of Dwarvenkind doesn't clearly correspond to any particular guideline.  Seperately, the +2 Con is worth 4,000 gp (for an amulet).  The +2 Resistance is almost worth 4,000 gp (for the Cloak of Resistance +2, minus a bit for it not applying to all saves).  The Darkvision is supposedly worth 12,000 gp (for Goggles of Night).  Guidelines would suggest additional abilities cost more, not less - and yet the Con and Darkvision alone are worth 16,000 gp as seperate items.  If you use the +50% guideline for secondary powers, it goes up to 18,000 - and still without including the Resistance bonus to saves or the Dwarven language proficiency.  Plus it's off-slot; Darkvision in something other than an Eye slot, Con in something other than a Protection slot, and so on.

How do you price improvements on it without pure DM call?


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## Mistwell (Jun 19, 2007)

The guidelines for ability enhancement increases to any item are all listed in the MIC.  I'd link you to a thread that lists them all, but my search command seems to have disappeared.


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