# how do you make a Fighter be not-boring?



## loki8481 (Jul 6, 2009)

is there a way? it seems that while other classes have a constantly expanding bag of tricks, whether it's from new spell levels or new base class abilities or both, it seems like fighters have essentially the same gameplay style from level 1 through level 20, just with more hitpoints and without all the fun stuff that casters get.

is it as boring in actuality as it sounds to me on paper?


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## Elethiomel (Jul 6, 2009)

You use the Warblade in the fighter's place, that's how you make it non-boring.

However, just because you're hitting things with a weapon, doesn't mean you can't change things up with tactical feats that grant new abilities, for instance. The fighter is the hardest class to get variety of play with. It's not impossible, but neither is it worth it, in my opinion. The Warblade is much less hassle to get variety out of out-of-the-box.


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## Herzog (Jul 6, 2009)

I don't know about you, but every single build I've worked on sooner or later runs into a very simple problem: lack of feats.

This is the power of the fighter: where the wizard and cleric get their spells and the rogue gets his skills, the fighter gets feats.

While there are appearent 'no-brainers' like Power Attack and Cleave, the same two feats could have gone elsewhere.

Where a wizard might focus his spells into a specific school or element, the fighter can focus on mobile fighting (spring attack), protective fighting (improved disarm) and/or fighting large crowds (greater cleave)

True, without even looking I can predict the Warblade will probably be more interesting (without making an effort to search for those brilliant feat-combinations the fighter might have) and maybe even more powerfull (since WotC has made it a habit to increase the power of their classes/prc's/feats/spells with every new splatbook they publish)

That doesn't mean you can't make the fighter interesting. But, because it is such a versatile class, you have to look for that interesting combination of feats yourself. It's not hardcoded into the class. Just as wizards have to look for their favorite spells, and rogues have to determine where to focus their skillpoints....


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## Theroc (Jul 6, 2009)

For variety, I'd say go the Combat Expertise 'chain' Improved Feint, Improved Disarm, Improved trip.

Then you have about 4 options right off the bat when you enter the fray with someone.

Granted, it takes several levels to get all those feats...


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## loki8481 (Jul 6, 2009)

has anyone tried any multi-class fighter builds that ended up being interesting?


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## Theroc (Jul 6, 2009)

loki8481 said:


> has anyone tried any multi-class fighter builds that ended up being interesting?




I would suggest you define 'interesting' as it's a very subjective term.  Some may find it interesting to play a fighter who is amazed with the variety and crazy things his companion can do.

What is it that YOU find interesting, since it apparently is NOT a fighter... lol


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## Sharkon (Jul 6, 2009)

You say fighter is boring. Here are some suggestions for builds : 
1)multiclass with barbarian, take the feats extra rage and leap attack and calculate the damage that character does
2) Take improved trip with spiked chain as mentioned above or fight with 2  weapons and boots of speed (8 attacks at lvl 12) 
3)Open the feats in complete sqoundrel and see which classes can be joined with that of the fighter's ( i once played a martial stalker, fighter-ninja, and was very efficient ) 

You can find other builds also great and as far as the rp is concerned it is up to you. In one of my campaigns as a figther i was the personal guard of a wizard in the party and made gold out of that  
There are many things you can df course fighter is not as interesting as a spellcaster but he is no boring for sure


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## Flatus Maximus (Jul 6, 2009)

loki8481 said:


> has anyone tried any multi-class fighter builds that ended up being interesting?




In our last campaign, one of my players mixed levels of Bard and Fighter to get into the Dragon Disciple prestige class.  When he told me that's what he wanted to do, I was skeptical; but it turned out to be a very effective combatant.  The trick is to forget about spells with DC (so you can get by with a relatively low Cha), then pick from the low-level-but-useful Bard spells.  Don't forget UMD, and inspire courage w/ _inspirational boost_ (Spell Compendium) to make up for the loss of BAB due to Bard levels while also buffing your allies.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 7, 2009)

The key to making Fighters "non-boring" is to figure out why your guy or gal does what he does...and how.  Give him a personality.

One of my most memorable PCs of all time was a 1ED Fighter named Bear.  I made a deal with my DM- give me maxed out physical stats and all of his mental stats would be 6-7s.  Bear was a gentle giant, he fought because he was trained to do so by those around him (what else was he going to do?).  Despite his nature, though, he had hooked up with a manipulative thief who treated him well...in order to have the most loyal and dangerous bodyguard he could find.  That thief was- to Bear- brother, father and God all rolled up into a diminutive package that was his only true friend.

The thief eventually took something he _really_ shouldn't have, and the City Watch boiled out of their barracks like fire ants from a kicked-over mound.  As the party fled, the thief told Bear to protect him...

As they crossed a river on a narrow bridge, Bear turned and faced the entire Watch himself, taking down one after another until he died.  By then, the party was safely away.

Other fun fighters had unusual intellect or wisdom in the other direction, oddball weapons, quirks & taboos, etc.  It wasn't necessarily about the fight.



loki8481 said:


> has anyone tried any multi-class fighter builds that ended up being interesting?




Sure- dozens of times, in every edition!

Examples from 3.X:

1) *Johnny Bones*: a NE Ftr/Thief, done to conform to 1Ed type class stats.  He was a bit of a street-thug who fell in with a good crowd.  Didn't stop him from bullying the party mage, though.  Points for style included TWF with Rapier & SS, and studded leather armor with skull-shaped studs.

2) *Adragon Von Basten*: a CG Ftr/Sorc.  The son of a high-class courtesan and a Half-Dragon mercenary, he worked as a bouncer in the brothel until he was forced to leave because he killed an incognito noble who raped and killed the woman he loved (a seamstress who worked at the brothel).  He wore Scale armor & shield, fought with a Maul.  Most spells he knew had no somatic components. Cast almost no spells in combat- instead, channeling the spell energy for a lightning BW via the Draconic Breath feat (CompArc).

3) *Sister Shrike*: a LN Ftr/Monk/Kensai.  Dex-based, used AoOs & FoB with a Greatspear (Pole Fighter feat lets it be used as a monk weapon), Monkey Grip, and potions of Enlarge to deal out some serious hurt to some dragons at a Dallas Gameday hosted by GenX Games.  Battle was her prayer.


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## rgard (Jul 7, 2009)

loki8481 said:


> has anyone tried any multi-class fighter builds that ended up being interesting?




Fighter/Martial Rogue (UA variant) ends up with decent amount of feats.  You lose SA, but gain the figher feat progression.

I've always preferred light, mobile fighters so this combo works for me.

Thanks
Rich


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## Herobizkit (Jul 7, 2009)

As a general rule, I don't play Fighters past 4th level - the level you can get Weapon Specialization.  I am also a notorious multi-class fiend.

Fighter/Rogue is notoriously awesome, especially if you have a partner who is also a Rogue.  Co-flanking bad guys is awesome for damage output.

Fighter/Cleric is pretty typical for Dwarves.

Fighter/Monk can be gobs of fun with the right build (but in reality, Monk/Rogue is liquid awesome).

And the above posters are correct... givng the character a personality and purpose will make the Fighter far more interesting than his game stats.


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## Particle_Man (Jul 7, 2009)

I think there is room for single-classed Fighters to be interesting:

1) Skill Tricks from Complete Scoundrel.
2) Tactical Feats from Complete Warrior (and others).  Each of these gives the fighter three situational tricks.
3) PHB II feats.
4) And you can even take a few maneuvers/stances from Book of 9 Swords via feats.


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## aboyd (Jul 7, 2009)

loki8481 said:


> it seems like fighters have essentially the same gameplay style from level 1 through level 20, just with more hitpoints and without all the fun stuff that casters get.



Herzog has it right.  Wizards get spells, rogues get skills, and fighters get feats.  You pick a fighter class if you want to be feat-obsessed.

Sharkon also hit on a good point -- even just a single level of barbarian can do you real good.  Make it your first level, and pick human for your race.  You'll get two feats, and you can do exactly what Sharkon said and then roll right into fighter.

As for what *I* do to make fighters more interesting, well....  First, I have a house rule for the game I DM.  That is: fighter bonus feats are awarded at any level that a normal feat is _not_ awarded. (Levels 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, 16, 17, 19, 20). By level 20, this gives 3 more feats than normal.  That allows a level 20 fighter to essentially have a whole extra mini feat chain from the house rule.  By level 5 or 6, you have one more feat than a "normal" fighter.

Second, although I do not allow Book of 9 Swords into my campaign (a very "martial power on steroids" kind of book), I do allow all the Complete books, along with the PHB 2.  So I try to take advantage of feats that are unexpectedly good in those extra books.

For example, in Complete Warrior, I like the Ranged Disarm and Ranged Pin feats almost exclusively for the cool flavor.  Ranged Pin in particular is dangerous, because a DM can "nerf" the feat by merely having all his enemies avoid walls & trees.  However, if your DM is a fair player, that feat is a really fun way to stop the bad guy from escaping.  Ranged Disarm is also fun in that if you get really good at it, it's awesome to have a high-level character disarm a _room_ full of bad guys.

I like Shield Slam from the same book just due to the ability to apply something other than hit point damage.  I've been toying with allowing Shield Slam to do a 1-round Stun instead of just Daze -- this way a fighter can work with a rogue to enable sneak attacks.  It's pretty high level stuff, so I don't think it's terribly unbalancing in concept, although I've not yet tried it in gameplay.

The Combat Brute and Raptor School feats are fun just for the varied attack styles.  The High Sword Low Axe is _awesome_ for free trip attempts.  I love the idea of a two-handed weapon master striding amongst foes, knocking them over as he goes.

In the Player's Handbook 2, the Penetrating Shot feat gives a bow-using fighter something similar to a lightning bolt effect -- the shot hits everyone in a 60' line.  That's cool, although it's situational.  Telling Blow is just crazy-good for a fighter/rogue multiclass character.  Especially a rogue with all the feats that make crits more frequent.  Combat Panache & Shadow Striker are also good for such a character.

Blood-Spiked Charger is awesome for shield-bashing fighters.

I also allow some fighter bonus feats from the Net Book of Feats.  If you haven't heard of that, it's a collection of online custom-made feats that come with balance ratings, so a DM can tell if a feat is a good fit for his campaign.  I'll tell you about the three coolest feats I allow from that.  First, Bleeding Critical, which allows a fighter to do 1 point of Constitution damage on a strike.  I have ruled that the effect stacks, so if a fighter manages to score 3 crits against an opponent, then that enemy has lost 3 points of Constitution, including the lowered hit point totals that it implies.

Second, the feat Opportunity Shot allows bows to be used for attacks of opportunity at point-blank range.  This gives a bow-fighter a huge threatened area.  Couple this with the Combat Reflexes feat, and you have a Legolas-type that can whip arrows all over the battlefield, many times.

Finally, the feat Riposte allows you an AOO at anyone who swings at you and misses.  Depending on the DM, it may be that "1 or more" misses gets you one riposte, or it may be that each miss earns you a riposte.  If the latter, this scales up really well at high levels where you could be surrounded by 2 or more enemies with many attacks; you could slice & dice them in retaliation a _whole lot._  It can cause a fighter to deal out as much damage to a hostile crowd as a wizard's fireball or other AOE spells.

Good luck.  Have fun!


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## Vardock (Jul 7, 2009)

I once made a fighter with improved disarm, improved trip, improved unarmed strike and, improved grapple. Although He fought with A Dwarven waraxe he also carried a truncheron fopr non-lethal combat, and often disarmed foes rather than directly attacking them. also Disarming is good against spellcasters. So is grappling. So is disarming a grappling spellcaster. One can "disarm" a holy symbol or spell compoment pouch. My DM had his spellcasters running away from my fighter because he did that.


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## FEADIN (Jul 7, 2009)

Fighte/Rogue (Thief) is a classic since 1st edition and in 3.5 with Prestige class you can do almost anything in this way.
I remember a Balrog who struck our Fighter/Rogue 8/11 fighting with 2 weapons, missed his save and resistance vs Holy aura, was blinded, lost his dexterity and died in one round...... way too much 6 sided dice


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## Jhaelen (Jul 7, 2009)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> The key to making Fighters "non-boring" is to figure out why your guy or gal does what he does...and how.  Give him a personality.



This is the most important advice. Actually, if you think you'll enjoy playing the role of a fighter, then you probably will - if not, play something else!

The only advice I have to add that hasn't been mentioned yet:
Take a good look at the magic items that are available at your level. They are an excellent way to add to your bag of tricks (speaking of which is a good example for an item with open-ended usefulness in many situations - combat or otherwise!).
If you are allowed to use the MIC, it's got a lot of low-priced, useful items that can be used 1-3 times per day to expand your options. Chosen carefully you can alleviate most of a fighter's weaknesses.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Jul 8, 2009)

To not be boring, first you need to decide what it is you find boring. Is it doing the same thing every round? Power Attack or Combat Expertise and the subsequent guessing/calculating how much attack bonus you can afford to turn into damage or AC may be all you need. Or you could wield a bastard sword and buckler and switch between weapon and shield and two handed attacking as the situation warrants. Or maybe you would rather be playing a fighter/rogue so you can scheme how to five foot step in order to get combat advantage. Or maybe it's just doing damage that is boring. In that case, take some feats to give you other options. Improved Trip, Improved Disarm (if your campaign features a lot of weapon using foes), etc. You can also take the various grapple feats (or multiclass to Monk to get them). Or maybe you desperately wish for some resource management to be a part of your character. Multiclass paladin or cleric for smites and channel divinity feats may be what you are looking for. (Or maybe multiclass barbarian and managing your rages will do the trick).  

It does mostly come down to feats and multiclassing, but a lot depends upon what you want to do.

Mathematical complexity:
Power Attack
Cleave
Combat Expertise

More mobility: Dodge+mobility+spring attack+(PHB 2) bounding assault
More damage based on movement: multiclass scout
More damage based on position: multiclass rogue
Defense based on position: Uncanny dodge, Elusive Target
Inflict conditions: Three mountain style+shield slam+shield charge (heavy mace and shield). Charge someone, knock them prone, and make them save against being dazed. Then hit them several times with your mace and make them save against being dazed.
Sequential maneuver combinations: shock trooper, combat brute (if you combine them with leap attack and elusive target, this can yield a really impressive series of moves--on the other hand, leap attack is rather broken so sane DMs should not allow it, but it's still a good combo without leap attack).
Additional combat options: wield a reach weapon or bastard sword/waraxe and buckler. Get the Improved Grapple feat. Etc.

Resource management:
Fighter/Cleric (or paladin)/Templar (or warpriest). Take at most 4 cleric levels and look for swift action spells or abilities that increase your combat prowess. (War domain is a good source of weapon feats).
Barbarian/Fighter

Giving bonuses to your allies and yourself:
Fighter/Marshal (Miniatures Handbook). You should take at least four levels of Marshal but you can easily benefit from as many as 8. This combo also combines very well with paladin (if lawful good) or hexblade (if not good). The more mileage you can get out of your charisma the better.

Fighters don't have to be boring. But you do need to put at least as much thought into your feats class, and equipment choices as a sorcerer puts into his spell selection if you want to be both interesting and effective. For people who like simple and effective, there are barbarians.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 8, 2009)

Well, aside from picking up Book of Nine Swords  or D&D 4E: 

Pick feats that give you new options in combat (or at least make you good at them.). 
First step is to ignore feats like Weapon Focus and related feats. If all you want is power, they might indeed be a good choice, but if you want the character to play interesting and with variety, they just suck. They don't give you options, just bonuses to attack and damage. If all a Wizard could do was select the same spell but with more damage, he wouldn't be as interesting as he is, right? 

So, good feats to take: 
- Improved Trip. Trip is one of the more powerful conditions you can inflict on your enemy - if he is knocked prone, he loses his chance for a full attack or has to suck up hefty penalties. And he can't move, either.
- Improved Disarm. Great against humanoid foes within a reasonable size (Huge Giants wielding Two-Handed weapons are probably never a good choice).
- Improved Grapple. Turn of enemy spellcasters. 
- Whirlwind Attack. Not necessarily as powerful as it could be, but very "cool". 
- Precise Shot and/Or Far Shot: Gives you a notably different option in combat, especially useful if you have flying enemies or lots of difficult terrain between you and the enemy. I think there is also a feat somewhere that allows you to use Strength instead of Dexterity for thrown weapons. Combined with a Returning weapon.
- Skill Focus (Intimidate). Your only social skill, and you probably don't have the Charisma. 
- Any tactical feats that fit your weapon choice(s). 

You don't need all of these feats, and it will take quite some time since you can get them, too, so you need to set priorities.

Multiclass Options: 
- Ranger for more skill points. Overall, you get a lot of "bang" for your back, improved saves, free feats and so on. Being able to go scouting together with a Rogue could make a big difference. Of course, you migh want to invest into non-heavy armor. 
- Barbarian for Rage. Pick Extra Rage to get more uses. You also get slightly more skill points, might be a good way to boost your Survival or Intimidate skill. Intimidate is your only social interaction skill you can keep reasonably high, and it might allow you to participate in uncommon situations. 
- Rogue is not a terrible choice, but losing the attack bonus might hurt too much. Of course, some extra sneak attack damage is nothing to sneeze at, and the skill points gained can be used to master a few useful skills - Stealth related, Perception related, Social related, or even Use Magic Device.

IIRC, the Book of Iron Might also provides an interesting approach to get more combat maneuvers out of the system. That would give you a lot of options every round, allowing you to combine disarms, blinding attacks and similar stuff.


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## green slime (Jul 14, 2009)

I go even further than aboyd. IMC, fighters get a bonus feat every level, instead of only every second level.

This allows fighters to gain multiple specialities, usually one melee, one ranged.

I don't allow Bot9S. I do allow most feats for fighters from most sources, including some inhouse feats.


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## thurgon (Jul 15, 2009)

loki8481 said:


> has anyone tried any multi-class fighter builds that ended up being interesting?




Cleric/Fighter builds can prove very able and very fun.  Of course you can also do things like build toward a PrC as well, like Knight Protector.   

But in the end the fighter is about more then just taking his swing on his turn.  With the right feats you can disarm foes who threaten you or your friends, you can knock foes away from the more vulnerable party members, like you mage with a good bull rush.  If you take the feats for it you really can control much of what the foes you face can do, it just depends on what you take and how you use it.  Look at your choices for feats, it's simply massive and notice just how many feats you as a fighter will be able to get.  You can build a ranged damage dealer if you like, a horse knight with no equal on the open field, a truly brutal damage dealer with either TWF or a good two hander, a battle field controller with knock around feats and disarm/sunder.  Your limited only by your imagination with a fighter, he can be so many different things.  Or you can simply swing a sword, if that is all you want him to do.


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## Ahnehnois (Jul 15, 2009)

How do you make a fighter boring?

Seriously, even with no multiclassing, the tactical comlexity of having to fight different types of opponents (including DR, flying, etc.) is considerable. Going goliath and taking combat maneuver feats (trip, disarm, etc.) is also fun. There are several great Weapon Style feats between CW, Races of Stone anda couple other books. The PHBII feats add a lot of good options, as do some of the various alternate class features from PHBII and some of the other late 3.5 books. Make use of the Rules Compendium Intimidate skill use that allows you to challenge opponents at the beginning of every combat. Buy MIC items that have limited daily powers to increase versatility and tactical choices. Fighter/Barbarian multiclasses are killer.

Even the straight human fighter with none of that stuff from my latest campaign was pretty interesting.


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## Angrydad (Jul 17, 2009)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> The key to making Fighters "non-boring" is to figure out why your guy or gal does what he does...and how.  Give him a personality.
> 
> One of my most memorable PCs of all time was a 1ED Fighter named Bear.  I made a deal with my DM- give me maxed out physical stats and all of his mental stats would be 6-7s.  Bear was a gentle giant, he fought because he was trained to do so by those around him (what else was he going to do?).  Despite his nature, though, he had hooked up with a manipulative thief who treated him well...in order to have the most loyal and dangerous bodyguard he could find.  That thief was- to Bear- brother, father and God all rolled up into a diminutive package that was his only true friend.
> 
> ...





Oh, Danny. He of many words. I'm completely with you about how to make a fighter interesting. It's all about characterization with fighters. Why are they doing what they do? What type of warrior are you? Add a little tribal flair for a primitive character, some swashbuckler levels for the suave/dapper type, or just be some kind of crazed vigilante. Power Attack sounds boring when you just say, "I subtract x for y extra damage". Instead, "I swing wildly as I roll across the table and smash him with a beer stein". That sounds way more awesome. Some of the most memorable characters my parties have ever had are the simple fighter types.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 17, 2009)

> Oh, Danny. He of many words. I'm completely with you about how to make a fighter interesting. It's all about characterization with fighters. Why are they doing what they do? What type of warrior are you?




I have often been described as "loquacious"- its a flaw I'm trying to work on.

I'm not as bad as the guy who is the subject of this song, though:
MC 900 Foot Jesus - Killer Inside Me Lyrics

I suppose I could have just posted



> The key to making Fighters "non-boring" is to figure out why your guy or gal does what he does...and how. Give him a personality.




...and stopped.



> Some of the most memorable characters my parties have ever had are the simple fighter types.




7 times out of 10, who gets the best lines in the fantasy movies?  The warriors.


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## Some_call_me_Tim (Jul 18, 2009)

Fighters are as boring as you want them to be.

If you simply using the tactic of: bash enemy, rinse, repeat. Then fighters are pretty dull.

You need to spend all those bonus feats you get to develop some tactics. First thing is go read the SRD section on special attacks. Those are the bread and butter of making exciting melee combat. 

 I've run many 3.0/3.5 "plain jane" (i.e. single-classed) fighters, and they weren't boring or relied heavily on Prestige classes. They were also very different. One specialized in mounted combat. OK one was your basic Dwarven Tank, but another was lighter armored and using disarm, mobility, and combat expertise. Another was a brawler; specialized in using bare-hands and improvised weapons--great for bar fights.

One thing I will say is that your DM, needs to help out here. Fights vs. one big opponent in an empty 30'x30', will tend to be boring. You need multiple and varied opponents and terrain to help make melee interesting.

For cinematic fights you need tables to jump on, chandeliers to swing from, and a bunch of mooks to mow down.

Personally, I've seen some pretty darned boring sorcerers. I cast _fireball_, _fireball_, let's see..._fireball_, ad naseum. 

Personally, I think to many players confuse powerful with exciting. Even a powerful one-trick pony is still pretty boring in my book.

Also, as a member of a party, sometimes your job is to just protect those squishy little spell casters in the back.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 21, 2009)

> For cinematic fights you need tables to jump on, chandeliers to swing from, and a bunch of mooks to mow down.



Yep...a well-described environment in which to act can make a huge difference in the immersion your players feel, and that can lead them to do things like use candelabras as improvised blocking weapons, or bouncing something off of something else to attack from an unexpected angle.



> Personally, I've seen some pretty darned boring sorcerers. I cast fireball, fireball, let's see...fireball, ad naseum.




Some call him Tim the Enchanter?


> Personally, I think to many players confuse powerful with exciting. Even a powerful one-trick pony is still pretty boring in my book.




Depending on the trick, of course.


> Also, as a member of a party, sometimes your job is to just protect those squishy little spell casters in the back.



Definitely- we were fighting Umber Hulks once, and the Wiz had just the right spell selection to take them down.

But he needed a little "meatshield" protection to keep them from coming up his backside, or he'd have gone down as a quick snack for one of the bigger ones.


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## insanogeddon (Jul 22, 2009)

*A different take on fighter.*

I get the point of 'why fighter?' or 'just dip' as we all know you can make an effective weapon hacker without bonus fighter feats.

Personally instead of the whole one dimensional adding extra hackening or working out dip levels I tend to embrace this reality and open up a world of unique cool fun following simple rules:

Embrace your class, commit. Be patient and don't max a weapon trust in your bab and wit... you are a fighter and can cope with anything.

1. Only use fighter bonus feats for fighter bonus feats

2. Broaden your options: if you have at 6th power attack, point blank, precise, and quick draw you should be able to shoot an opponent 2x then pull a reach weapon and get an attack of opportunity before your hit. Instead of 'I attack with my katana with which I am specialised' this flexibility and the fact you can try every magic weapon you find and change at will makes for difference... more so if your DM doesn't cut you breaks in chosen equipment.

2. DO NOT use normal feats and bonus feats for anything you can buy as a fighter bonus feat. Instead follow your whims and weaknesses
Guerrilla Scout (heroes of Battle): Gain Spot and Listen as class skills
Fey Heritage and Fey Legacy (complete mage) for spell abilities like unicorns to heal and dimension door
Tru namer feats for truenames
Incarnum Feats for melds
Abberation feats (lords of madness)... weapon mastery in blugeoning weapons, twin great maces, brutal strike and tentacles add up !
etc etc

The world and worlds of non-linear feats are your oyster, your the one character that isn't locked into power attack/2 weapon fighting/improved initiative/spell pen/quicken etc your feats are actually your own. 
Be the fey blood magic warrior prince, the gypsy born (fiendish heritage from complete mage) world teleporting merchant of death, the soul eater incarnum using gladiator, the reaver child found in a long abandoned druid circle who knows the true names of things, the escaped aboleth slave cursed and blessed who grows wings, and tentacles, and gills etc etc etc 
Make an archetype.

You can because your combat effectiveness is covered by your class abilities: bab and fighter feats so brandish your mighty arms and roar with gargantuan laughter that mocks all other classes


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## kitsune9 (Jul 22, 2009)

Elethiomel said:


> You use the Warblade in the fighter's place, that's how you make it non-boring.
> 
> However, just because you're hitting things with a weapon, doesn't mean you can't change things up with tactical feats that grant new abilities, for instance. The fighter is the hardest class to get variety of play with. It's not impossible, but neither is it worth it, in my opinion. The Warblade is much less hassle to get variety out of out-of-the-box.




I would agree, if you want a more "variable" fighter, go for warblade.


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## Herobizkit (Jul 23, 2009)

Not to be a wet blanket, but the Fighter's tactical strength doesn't often come into play.

You are at a disadvantage when trying to trip Large creatures.
You can't disarm monsters that don't fight with weapons.
You certainly don't want to sunder an opponent's magical weapon.
You can't bring a Mount into a dungeon.

Generally, any attack that does damage is far more efficient than fancy tricks.  However, your DM's campaign and playing style will determine just how useful your fancy tricks will be.  For example, a Swashbuckler-style campaign will have mostly humans or humanoids who will fight with weapons (and disarming of said weapons), while an Asian-flavored one may have lots of mounted and/or unarmed combat with lots of opportunities for trips and such.

IMXP, it's better to kill an opponent than to try and mess around with grapples and trips and such.  As much fun as it is to have all of those feats, to rarely see them come into play is both frustrating and disheartening... which gives you even more reason to think of the _character_ first and then fit the game stats to your vision.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 24, 2009)

Herobizkit said:


> You are at a disadvantage when trying to trip Large creatures.




...unless you have a way to get large yourself and/or boost your strength.



> You can't disarm monsters that don't fight with weapons.



...unless you have a Sword of Sharpness.



> You certainly don't want to sunder an opponent's magical weapon.




That depends on the weapon.



> You can't bring a Mount into a dungeon.




...don't tell the Gnomes and Halflings.



> IMXP, it's better to kill an opponent than to try and mess around with grapples and trips and such.




That is fairly true, but it is a nice option to have if you know you can't drop the foe quickly enough.  Sometimes, preventing an opponent from acting as he would wish to is more important than actually dropping him _at that moment_.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Jul 29, 2009)

Herobizkit said:


> Not to be a wet blanket, but the Fighter's tactical strength doesn't often come into play.
> 
> You are at a disadvantage when trying to trip Large creatures.
> You can't disarm monsters that don't fight with weapons.
> ...




It really depends upon the situation. Grapple is an autowin against many spellcasters. If the wizard doesn't have dimension door prepped, he's done for once he's grappled. Likewise, if you grapple that orc barbarian, he's not going to be power attacking with his vorpal greatsword anymore. Now, you don't want to grapple a guy in the middle of a group of rogues and you don't want to grapple one member of a hobgoblin swarm, but there will be a lot of situations where you do want to grapple.

The same is true for trip, etc though for trip focused characters, trip is almost always a good idea against medium or smaller foes.

Of the various basic option feats, I think that improved trip and improved grapple are by far the most useful.

Disarm and sunder are a lot less useful.


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## roguerouge (Jul 29, 2009)

There's a viable duelist system available from Nick Logue's Sinister Adventures. Cheap pdf, actually. It has viable rules for parrying and riposete.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 29, 2009)

> Disarm and sunder are a lot less useful.




Personally, I like disarming foes, and I'm not _at all _averse to sundering goodies, but I can understand how some people may have a different view.


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## Herobizkit (Aug 6, 2009)

As I go back and re-read my post, I realize I was griping over an issue that need not be griped about.  It is true - the fighter's tactics are always situational, just like Wizards don't (always) cast Fireball during combat with Fire-using creatures, or Rogues not being able to sneak-attack Undead or Constructs.

But Danny... sundering *treasure*?!  Come ON...


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 6, 2009)

Herobizkit said:


> But Danny... sundering *treasure*?!  Come ON...




I agree.  Which is why I've been trying to make a houserule to cover sundering that changes how item destruction works.  Basically, I never understood why destroying an item physically removes all the magic, and IMO that is the one thing ruining sunder and keeping it from being used.  My houserule, when I've finished working out the kinks, will basically say that breaking an item merely suppresses the magic within it.  Once it is fully repaired physically (by craft, make whole, etc...), its magical properties return in 24 hours.  Or One property returns each 24 hours thereafter, maybe.  Instead of losing 100k gp of treasure, you only leave it unusable for a day or so.  Still long enough to screw over an enemy for the encounter, and any that happen later if he tries to run away.  But you're not shooting yourself in the foot, and if he ends up winning or escaping, his precious gear isn't gone forever.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Aug 6, 2009)

Herobizkit said:


> But Danny... sundering *treasure*?!  Come ON...




Hey...its good enough for Conan, its good enough for me!


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## green slime (Aug 7, 2009)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> I agree.  Which is why I've been trying to make a houserule to cover sundering that changes how item destruction works.  Basically, I never understood why destroying an item physically removes all the magic, and IMO that is the one thing ruining sunder and keeping it from being used.  My houserule, when I've finished working out the kinks, will basically say that breaking an item merely suppresses the magic within it.  Once it is fully repaired physically (by craft, make whole, etc...), its magical properties return in 24 hours.  Or One property returns each 24 hours thereafter, maybe.  Instead of losing 100k gp of treasure, you only leave it unusable for a day or so.  Still long enough to screw over an enemy for the encounter, and any that happen later if he tries to run away.  But you're not shooting yourself in the foot, and if he ends up winning or escaping, his precious gear isn't gone forever.




Me like.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Aug 7, 2009)

For me, it depends upon the exact nature of the magic item.

For something like a sword, I could see it being repaired and getting its magic back fully...or possibly with a twist.

For something like a wand?  Broken is broken.


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## Herobizkit (Aug 13, 2009)

YOU'RE broken.  

My player would lose it if another NPC sundered potential treasure.  I should have all my villains do it to their own equipment from now on... hur hur hur...


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## Dannyalcatraz (Aug 13, 2009)

I've even had NPCs Sunder PC equipment...but it was quickly replaced.

I only seem evil for short periods of time.


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## freebiewitz (Aug 13, 2009)

The answer? Roleplaying.
What do I meen?

1.The fighter always demands to duel the strongest looking enemy in the group one on one no matter what.

2.Tries to plan absurd rescue plans and attempt to execute them.

3.Most of said plans involve swinging from a rope and some sort of explosive in the background.

4.Everytime the fighter tries to attepmt the plan himself the rest of the party tie him up.

5. The fighter should always announce his own presence with a thunder stone and himself speaking and refering to himself in third person.

You get the idea, funny stuff like that.


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## pawsplay (Aug 13, 2009)

To me, fighters are interesting. They have a zillion feats, which means you can pick something and do it well, or branch out and become very versatile. While they aren't much in the logistics department, in combat they are quite formidable. I have never included Warblades in my game, not because of their power (which is actually very similar to a fighter anywa) but because I don't like the flavor. Too much wahoo. Despite all the moaning and groaning, most analyses on the CO board at wizards came to the conclusion fighters do more damage than barbarians over the long haul and can often hold their own against warblades.

Fighters mostly lack: exotic defenses, transportation spells, buffs. If you are willing to rely on your friends, that is not a problem. In their own role, fighters are as effective as members of most classes.

There are fewer exploitive fighter builds. Feature, not a bug?


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## EroGaki (Aug 13, 2009)

The thing about fighters that bugs me, more than any other D&D class, is that they suck at defense. They have a billion and one feats designed to hurt people or gain an advantage in combat, but only a handful help prevent the fighter from getting hurt. Fighters, in my mind, should be equally skilled in defense; barbarians are brutes who absorb damage, rangers are designed to work at a distance, and paladins have all sorts of divine advantages. All the fighter has is it skill, and that isn't doing the job in the defense area.

IMHO, fighters would be more interesting if they could successfully fulfill different archtypes; 9 out of 10 fighters are high strength, plate mail wearing brutes. Try designing a lightly armored, dex based fencer without multiclassing or entering a prestige class, and see how he compares to the standard fighter. The class should have been designed with many different styles of combat in mind.

Lastly, I've noticed that fighters seem uninteresting because in most D&D campaigns, they are the most common class. Warriors, men-at-arms, mercenaries, and all the rest run around in armor and try to kill things with swords. Most of them cannot rage, don't have favored enemies or the ability to lay on hands. They are, for all intents and purposes, fighters. Even if they are only using the warrior npc class, there is little to distinguish them from the actual fighters, who are supposed to be elite.

The sad thing is that warrior-types are everywhere, and the fighter, lacking any special abilities, blend in perfectly.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 13, 2009)

Fighters do fine with defense.  The only trick is the ever-present issue of relying on magic.  I find generally, feats are for offense primarily and magic items for defense.  Armor and shield enhancements cost half what weapon ones do.  I'd rather have +2 AC than +1 hit/damage at any given level, and since most forms of found treasure and single item price caps for towns are gp-value based, you can also typically find and buy magical armor much easier than weapons.  Add in that with AC you can diversfy your stock in all the different bonus types (inherent, luck, delfection, natural...) so that once upgrading your armor or shield becomes really expensive, you stil have a cheaper +1 AC option and...yeah.

Feats, on the other hand, are as you say.  The few defensive ones tend to be awful, while as all the "best" fighter-oriented feats involve offense.  I just assumed due to the widespread nature of it, this dichotomy was intentional.


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