# Why I refuse to support my FLGS



## Sebastian Francis (Jul 7, 2005)

So I wanted to buy the game Attack! and checked out my FLGS.  They had it for $39.99 (US funds).

Then I went to Toys R Us.  They also had Attack!.  For $13.99.

FLGS, piss off.    

***
Side rant: What's all this nonsense about "supporting" our FLGS, anyway? What are they, charities? Support, my ass.  If I want to give "support" to something it will be my family, my friends, my church, my co-workers, or my local charities.  Dear FLGS, you're a *business*, for frick's sake.  Support *yourself* and stop whining.  And while you're at it, stop jacking up the price of Attack! and other games.


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## the black knight (Jul 7, 2005)

Any support for a FLGS goes way beyond keeping the business afloat.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 7, 2005)

My refusal to support the nearest FLGS to me isn't economic by any stretch.  It's because the owner is a d***head and I impatiently wait to spit on the ruins of his store when he goes under.


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## HeapThaumaturgist (Jul 7, 2005)

That's how they're supporting themselves.  

Small Business Owner A orders 20 lots of Attack! for 25$ a pop.

Toys-R-Us Co. orders 2,000 lots of Attack! for 12$, or even 15$ a pop.  Attack! doesn't sell ... it sits on the shelf at FLGS for ages, collecting dust.  It sits on the shelves at Toys-R-Us #778 until more product comes in that could use that space, where they sell it at a small loss just to get it gone.  Playing the averages for TRUCo., but a big blow to FLGS.

People say "Support Your Local Gaming Store" because those stores stock the niche products that we, the niche consumer, are interested in purchasing.  These products don't sell in large numbers, so it's a pretty chancey proposition for the LGS.  With Amazon and EBay you can get stuff like that online whenever you want for less money.

The Local Gaming Store is sort of a dying market.  The internet is a better model for selling niche products.  This is why about 2/3 of stores that sell gaming material keep scaling it back monthly to make room for more CCGs and mini games ... those have high volume return customers and decent turnover.  

But I'm still frustrated that I can no longer just walk into a store and check out the selection of books.  

--fje


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## Venport (Jul 7, 2005)

*I love my FLGS however I have found that you only support them so far, if it is a economic issue don't buy there however if it is the same price at FLGS and some chain i will go with the FLGS every time, For so many reasons

1: i don't think this market will last with out them

2: they are fun with fun people (sometimes)

3: some (including mine) have a place to play games witch span from stupid yu-giho (SP) to miniature battle games to RPG's 

4: I can blow my pay check on miniatures instantly (is that a good thing or a bad thing?)



things i hate of FLGS

1: the stupid kids that play yugiho (sp) and try and sell the magic land cards for $5.00 each (dumb a$$es)

2: some times they just cost more

3: they are not open 24-7 (but you can't expect them to)





Just my thoughts



*


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## Belen (Jul 7, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> So I wanted to buy the game Attack! and checked out my FLGS.  They had it for $39.99 (US funds).
> 
> Then I went to Toys R Us.  They also had Attack!.  For $13.99.
> 
> ...




You do not have a clue.  Attack! probably cost the FLGS $35.00 because they cannot order in bulk.  The toy store chain probably bought 20,000 copies and decided to sell it below cost in order to get people to visit them rather than store like the FLGS.

This is why you could get the D&D Basic Game at Walmart for $16.00 when it retailed for $25.00.  Walmart paid $16.50 for them, the sold them at a lower price in order to shut down their competition.

Let's not even discuss the fact that as more gamestores die, so does our hobby.  WOTC acknowledges that the PRIMARY factor for recruiting new gamers are FLGS.


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## lgburton (Jul 7, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> So I wanted to buy the game Attack! and checked out my FLGS.  They had it for $39.99 (US funds).
> 
> Then I went to Toys R Us.  They also had Attack!.  For $13.99.
> 
> ...




sounds like you have a FLGS that i wouldn't support - however, i support my FLGS by buying things there rather than hastings or toys'r'us, when the prices are within a few dollars. why do i support the local store, even though i disagree with many of its game-room policies? because, it's better than putting money into a corporation chain store, imho.

if i were going to buy something and i saw that i could purchase it for signifigantly less (more than 10-15$ cheaper) at a chain, i would.


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## MoogleEmpMog (Jul 7, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> So I wanted to buy the game Attack! and checked out my FLGS.  They had it for $39.99 (US funds).
> 
> Then I went to Toys R Us.  They also had Attack!.  For $13.99.
> 
> ...




I assume you game at home, rather than in-store?

As a gamer who exclusively does the latter, I support my FLGS with about 50-60% of my purchases, considering any markup I may pay rent for the free use of their facilities, free access to other games, free or very cheap access to tournaments for mini and card games, and free browsing of product that I would otherwise have to buy before I tried.

As a designer, I save about $40 a month by merely browsing prospective markets rather than having to buy the product just to get a feel for it.

If general services of this sort are worth less than the markup you pay relative to other stores (most of my purchases would not be available in Toys'R'Us, anyway) or, more likely, online, then you shouldn't support your FLGS.

If general services are worth more (as they certainly are to me - I get about $500 worth of general services out of my FLGS each month!), you should look at more than the per item price tags.


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## Kanegrundar (Jul 7, 2005)

I've found that many FLGS' that want to compete are doing things like scaling back the in-store items to only the most popular brands but still special ordering any items that a customer may want, starting a discount program for people that pay a nominal membership to the store, generally being more knowledgable about future releases in the line they carry, generally being nicer to the customer regardless.  Granted, I've never had a problem with the last point, but I've read about many posters here that have.  My FLGS offers a 10% discount on new items for the month after they are released, plus if you're a member of the store, you get an additional 5% discount on top of that.  That has kept me coming bac to them for all of my print and boardgame purchases.  That 15% beats most online retailers especially when you factor in shipping costs.  

Kane


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## smootrk (Jul 7, 2005)

If the game store is within a few bucks of other offerings I will buy from them. But, sadly, typically they are way, way, way off of what can be found elsewhere. The game store becomes for me just a simple dice supplier, unless they have a particular sale of a product that I have been looking for.


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## Roudi (Jul 7, 2005)

I would just like to point out that "FLGS" stands for "Friendly Local Gaming Store."  If the folks at your local gaming store aren't friendly, then you probably shouldn't refer to it as an FLGS.

Personally, I refer to my local gaming store as an NSFLGS ("Not-So-Friendly Local Gaming Store"), because they aren't friendly.  Their markup is way too high, they have no respect for roleplay gamers (they're primarily a miniatures / collectible minis shop), and are generally not nice people.  They make me feel like I'm walking into a used car dealership, constantly sizing me up and trying to push sales on me for stuff I don't want.

Anywhoo, just nitpicking a little detail.  If your FLGS ain't friendly, then it ain't an FLGS.


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## Nailom (Jul 7, 2005)

My local gamingsstore sucks. They need about 6 weeks to order books I could get within 2 days via onlineshop and then they want 38€, thats more then 45 US-$, for the Draconomicon which I could get for about 27 US-$ a most online shops.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 7, 2005)

Maybe mine would be a RBLGS, then.


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## mcrow (Jul 7, 2005)

I buy about 90% of my gaming books from my LGS. I would buy from them even if they were more expensive than a chain store or internet. When I go there they have a lot of clean table space for us to use as well as nearly every in print rpg you can think of  and some OOP too. My FLGS has campaigns that are run by employees that are public, so if your group falls apart you can still get some gaming in. The staff really knows gaming and the industry and if by some odd chance you find that they don't carry a gam you are looking for they will alway special order for you. 

As a side note: I think my FLGS ( Source Comics & Games in Falcon Hieghts MN) is owned by Atlas Games. I have also heard that Fantasy Flight Games is also part owner but never been able to confirm that.


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## hexgrid (Jul 7, 2005)

HeapThaumaturgist said:
			
		

> The Local Gaming Store is sort of a dying market.  The internet is a better model for selling niche products.




This is how I see it. Supporting the local game store is considered some sort of moral imperative, but why? The game store will have what what I'm looking for maybe 20% of the time. Internet retailers will have what I'm looking for 100% of the time.

If the business model of the FLGS doesn't make sense in this day and age, why shouldn't we let it die out? 

If the only purpose the FLGS serves is as a place for gamers to gather, well, we should find a different place to gather.


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## was (Jul 7, 2005)

-I understand that there are secondary costs of doing business (labor, utilities etc..) and am I sympathetic to the inability of local gaming stores to buy in bulk.
-That being said, there are many times that I just cannot afford to shop there.  I have financial obligations as well and often have to stretch every dollar to cover them.  I buy local when I can, but when I find the books I want online for $10-$15 less (even after S/H), that's where I buy them.


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## Sebastian Francis (Jul 7, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> You do not have a clue.  Attack! probably cost the FLGS $35.00 because they cannot order in bulk.  The toy store chain probably bought 20,000 copies and decided to sell it below cost in order to get people to visit them rather than store like the FLGS.
> 
> This is why you could get the D&D Basic Game at Walmart for $16.00 when it retailed for $25.00.  Walmart paid $16.50 for them, the sold them at a lower price in order to shut down their competition.




Shrug.  Whaddever.  If it's cheaper, that's where I'm going.  I'll save a noble attitude for noble causes.


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## Joshua Randall (Jul 7, 2005)

I exclusively buy either online (if I can be patient) or in a major chain store (Borders, for example) if I'm feeling impatient. The price differential between those outlets and a so-called FLGS is simply too great for me to patronize the latter.

So does this make me a bad person? I don't feel bad. I agree with *hexgrid* -- if the small business game-store owners want to survive in this day and age of online retailing and Wal-Mart, then they need to find other ways to compete. Because they cannot compete on price.


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## Venport (Jul 7, 2005)

hexgrid:



Do you honestly think that the RPG Market will keep going if we loose all of your FLGS? I don't I see them as the cornerstone of the industry and without them we will have no more Support for your favorite hobby... the only good thing i can see is that if the support dose fall we can still play because it is not the kind of hobby that require constant support.. however it dose help change things up...


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## reveal (Jul 7, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> Shrug.  Whaddever.  If it's cheaper, that's where I'm going.  I'll save a noble attitude for noble causes.




How about you save the childish attitude for childish boards? You may not like the tone, but what BelenUmeria is spot on in his reasons why it costs less at Toys R Us. If you're going to come on here and whine about the cost of games, try doing a little thinking first. It's basic economics: If a company can afford to buy a product in bulk, they buy it cheaper and can sell it cheaper.


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## Sebastian Francis (Jul 7, 2005)

Roudi said:
			
		

> Anywhoo, just nitpicking a little detail.  If your FLGS ain't friendly, then it ain't an FLGS.




Very true.  The thing is, my FLGS is, if not outright *friendly*, certainly pleasant.  But it's all about $$$.


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## Sebastian Francis (Jul 7, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> How about you save the childish attitude for childish boards? You may not like the tone, but what BelenUmeria is spot on in his reasons why it costs less at Toys R Us. If you're going to come on here and whine about the cost of games, try doing a little thinking first. It's basic economics: If a company can afford to buy a product in bulk, they buy it cheaper and can sell it cheaper.




How is my attitude childish? You may not like it, and it may be grating (I freely admit), but that hardly constitutes "childish".

My point is that *no matter what* the reason is for the higher price at my FLGS, it is a moot point, because the bottom line for me, as a consumer, is that the lower price will almost always win out.  

(I say "almost" because there are always rare exceptions: store with higher price has book in stock, store with lower price doesn't but promises to order it in 4-6 weeks, etc.)


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## Venport (Jul 7, 2005)

Joshua Randall:

How much of a price markup dose your FLGS have? I'm sorry but there is a price on the back of the book; I can think of about 10 places in the city i live in that i could buy said book.

each of them charge the price that is on the back of the book (printed by the publisher) 

There is even on store that give 25% off of all RPG stuff. 

now i know that some places can't offer that but borders and Barns'n'noble don't offer any discount where i live?

How much are the markups?


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## reveal (Jul 7, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> My point is that *no matter what* the reason is for the higher price at my FLGS, it is a moot point, because the bottom line for me, as a consumer, is that the lower price will almost always win out.
> 
> (I say "almost" because there are always rare exceptions: store with higher price has book in stock, store with lower price doesn't but promises to order it in 4-6 weeks, etc.)




But it's not a moot point. You specifically came on here and ranted about how expensive a game was at your FLGS. The higher price *is* the point. And you were given the reasons. But to rant and then say "Whaddever" to someone who gives you reasons why your FLGS charges what it does, that's just childish.

It's like someone saying "The Earth is flat" and then putting up their hand and saying "Whatever" when someone tries to explain the basic science behind the shape of the Earth.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jul 7, 2005)

mcrow said:
			
		

> As a side note: I think my FLGS ( Source Comics & Games in Falcon Hieghts MN) is owned by Atlas Games. I have also heard that Fantasy Flight Games is also part owner but never been able to confirm that.



The Source is my FLGS also, and I live on the opposite side of the Twin Cities in the western suburbs. I travel out of my way to buy from there. And truth told, I've been getting things at about even when buying from the Source. The Source sells a lot though and I believe they can charge competitively with online places (when shipping costs are accounted for), and combined with their 10% discount card. As much as I make use of their discount card... whoa!

Also, The Source is actually owned by the same company that also owns Fantasy Flight Games, and Atlas Games.  It's a holding company called Trident Inc.


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## smootrk (Jul 7, 2005)

A very basic economic theory is that consumers always want more value for the price. The big companies are doing that with the lowest prices. The small stores must must must come up with value that supercedes what the big companies are doing with price alone. They are not being successful at identifying those values and marketing them and therefore they are not getting the consumers' dollars. They (the small stores) need to wise up and change or they will go out of business.

On the plus side, the small store that does figure out that creative niche will likely succeed in a big way.

My suggestion to store owners is to try to form co-ops for purchasing power as a temporary quick fix, and do some major creative thinking for the future.


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## KenM (Jul 7, 2005)

The reason I don't support my two FLGS's is that they don't sell ANY RPG books. They sell CCG's, and mini games, and they have a LAN set up computer gaming. Thats all they do.


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## MoogleEmpMog (Jul 7, 2005)

hexgrid said:
			
		

> This is how I see it. Supporting the local game store is considered some sort of moral imperative, but why? The game store will have what what I'm looking for maybe 20% of the time. Internet retailers will have what I'm looking for 100% of the time.




It's no moral imperative for me, it's a practical, even economic, consideration.

Again, I would have to pay (or get from my group) upwards of *$500 per month* for the service my FLGS provides *free*.

If we assume the (extreme) price difference of 40%, I would have to buy around $1251 of RPG material each month to be better off without the FLGS.

I don't.



			
				hexgrid said:
			
		

> If the business model of the FLGS doesn't make sense in this day and age, why shouldn't we let it die out?




Because, for many gamers, only blindly looking at the price tags on the books makes the FLGS seem more expensive?



			
				hexgrid said:
			
		

> If the only purpose the FLGS serves is as a place for gamers to gather, well, we should find a different place to gather.




Please send me the requisite $500 American to cover my expenses.  Heck, drop it to $490 to account for the $10 I "lose" by paying more per product.

Per month.

I'm waiting for my check(s).


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## Erik Mona (Jul 7, 2005)

The rumor floating around the industry goes something like this: A lot of struggling retailers hung on through the holiday shopping season, hoping against hope that the increased sales would pull them through a difficult time. This didn't happen, in most cases, and the number floating around the floor of Origins and in the halls of game companies says that something like 400 FLGS's closed up shop in January and February.

This has dealt a major blow to many publishers. Speaking as one of them, the sales numbers for Dragon and Dungeon in that market segment saw a significant fall-off during that period, even while things like subscriptions and general newsstand sales have been hitting three-year highs. 

With fewer game stores, game distributors are less likely to put in large orders for new RPG products. Even "sure thing" products are unlikely to get preorders above 1,000 copies these days, because distributors are leery of carrying a big inventory risk on what is essentially a shrinking market.

It's true that internet sales can make up for some of this slack, but right now RPG publishing for anyone but the biggest kids on the block is a riskier venture than it's been since I came to the industry in 1999, and I don't see it getting much better in the short term. Gamers not supporting their local game store certainly isn't going to help the situation.

It won't hurt the tiny guys, who would sell the same number of products out of their trunk as they would ordinarily sell through hobby store distribution. It won't hurt the giant companies with distribution deals with major book distributors and retailers. But the "middle guys" are really feeling the pinch these days, and those companies produce many of the d20 products popular with the members of this community.

I'm not trying to tell anyone how to do their business, but I thought my perspective might be of value to the discussion at hand.

--Erik Mona


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## mcrow (Jul 7, 2005)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> The Source is my FLGS also, and I live on the opposite side of the Twin Cities in the western suburbs. I travel out of my way to buy from there. And truth told, I've been getting things at about even when buying from the Source. The Source sells a lot though and I believe they can charge competitively with online places (when shipping costs are accounted for), and combined with their 10% discount card. As much as I make use of their discount card... whoa!
> 
> Also, The Source is actually owned by the same company that also owns Fantasy Flight Games, and Atlas Games. It's a holding company called Trident Inc.




Yeah, that dsicount card is great! It works so I get 2-3 free hardcover RPGs in a years time. Thanks for clearing up that "ownership" thing for me. The Source is by far the best game store that I have ever been in and feel like I should support them because make a real effort to support the players aswell.


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## Chaldfont (Jul 7, 2005)

This kills me. I suffer tons of guilt everytime I buy my game books on Amazon.com. Well not tons, the profit from a sale of Amazon stock paid for my mortgage down payment. But still, I'd like to keep my local gaming store in business.

But my hobby allowance is limited. For every $10 bucks I save on a gaming book I bought from Amazon (with points earned from my credit card no less), I can spend $10 bucks on my daughter, or put it in her college saving account, or buy a bottle of wine to drink with my wife. Or save it for Gencon 

I love browsing at my LGS and talking to the folks that work and shop there. But its way out of my way and it costs more. That's why I haven't been there in over six months. If everybody acted like me, there would be no more game stores.


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## wingsandsword (Jul 7, 2005)

I support one of my FLGS because they are right next to where I live, have a great selection, fair prices, and good service.  They know me by name when I come in, and are even good about special orders.

I don't support one of the FLGS in town because they've treated me and the people I know like dirt.  The owner likes to buy potentially collectable junk & old toys from yard sales, and he knew I was a fan of a line of toys he'd bought a huge load of.  He wanted me to come in and spend a few days cleaning, repairing and sorting these toys so he can sell them, and got offended when I asked how much would I be paid.  He wanted me to do about 20 hours of work for him as a "friend".  When I don't know you out of a retail context and you're always trying to sell me something, you're not a friend.  That and they have the worst deals on special orders I've ever seen.  When we were still engaged, my ex-fiancee special ordered something, which didn't come in for over 6 months (each week saying it will be in the next Tuesday), she gets fed up, buys it on eBay, and doesn't go back.  When she randomly stops in a year later, he says it finally came in and demands she buy it, when she refuses saying she put the order in over a year ago and hasn't even been to the store in a year, he says in no uncertain terms to buy the product she special ordered or to leave the store and never come back.  She didn't go back.

A third FLGS is mostly a comic book store, but they have a shelf of gaming stuff, but get very little new stuff in, and very little that you couldn't get at a mainstream mass-market bookstore.  They do sell loose Star Wars & D&D Minis though, and since they are near where I get my hair cut, I stop by there when I'm on that end of town to look around.

I'll support a FLGS if they treat me nice and are a decent business, I like having a store dedicated to my hobby I can go in and browse around, and have staff who know their stuff well, and meet other gamers.  You can't get that online.  Buying from my FLGS might be slightly more expensive than buying online, but once you factor in shipping and time (I hate having to wait for books) it's all effectively the same.  If they treat me poorly, do a poor job of keeping up with the field, I won't give them my money, simple as that.


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## Ozmar (Jul 7, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> You do not have a clue.  Attack! probably cost the FLGS $35.00 because they cannot order in bulk.  The toy store chain probably bought 20,000 copies and decided to sell it below cost in order to get people to visit them rather than store like the FLGS.
> 
> This is why you could get the D&D Basic Game at Walmart for $16.00 when it retailed for $25.00.  Walmart paid $16.50 for them, the sold them at a lower price in order to shut down their competition.
> 
> Let's not even discuss the fact that as more gamestores die, so does our hobby.  WOTC acknowledges that the PRIMARY factor for recruiting new gamers are FLGS.




Why don't FLGS owners work together to pool their buying power and get these kinds of deals, and then sell at reduced prices to more favorably compete with the online and non-niche marketers?

If 1000 FLGS each ordered 20 units, then they, too, could sell at lower prices, and combined with the insane levels of customer loyalty that they routinely receive, they should be able to knock off the Big Corporate competetion.

Ozmar the Amateur Economist


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## MoogleEmpMog (Jul 7, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> The rumor floating around the industry goes something like this: A lot of struggling retailers hung on through the holiday shopping season, hoping against hope that the increased sales would pull them through a difficult time. This didn't happen, in most cases, and the number floating around the floor of Origins and in the halls of game companies says that something like 400 FLGS's closed up shop in January and February.
> 
> This has dealt a major blow to many publishers. Speaking as one of them, the sales numbers for Dragon and Dungeon in that market segment saw a significant fall-off during that period, even while things like subscriptions and general newsstand sales have been hitting three-year highs.
> 
> ...




 

That's terrible news, Erik; I never imagined it was that bad.

I'm happy to say that, in spite of the short-sighted 'price is right' attitude of too many gamers (or perhaps because it's not as prevalent here), all seven of the FLGSes in my region are still open for business.  Or perhaps it's because many of them offer substantial intangibles to their customers.


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## reveal (Jul 7, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> Why don't FLGS owners work together to pool their buying power and get these kinds of deals, and then sell at reduced prices to more favorably compete with the online and non-niche marketers?
> 
> If 1000 FLGS each ordered 20 units, then they, too, could sell at lower prices, and combined with the insane levels of customer loyalty that they routinely receive, they should be able to knock off the Big Corporate competetion.
> 
> Ozmar the Amateur Economist




For the same reason Shell and BP Amoco don't pool their resources to buy more oil, thereby lowering gas prices in America: They're competitors. Screw the other guy!


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## Joshua Randall (Jul 7, 2005)

Venport said:
			
		

> Joshua Randall:
> 
> How much of a price markup dose your FLGS have? I'm sorry but there is a price on the back of the book; I can think of about 10 places in the city i live in that i could buy said book.



I'm not sure I understand the question. Also, I haven't (recently) comparison shopped at the small-business game store. 

But let's say I want to buy the DMG II, and the small store was selling it at MSRP ($39.95) while Walmart.com had it for 15% less. What incentive could the small store offer me that is worth $6? And just appealing to my love of D&D is not enough.

Some local game stores apparently offer frequent shopper discounts, or free gaming space, or other loyalty programs (to use the retailing lingo) -- for whatever reason, mine doesn't. Perhaps we can agree it is not being run very well? Because without those loyalty incentives, I have no reason to pay the higher prices _when it is trivially easy for me to save money on the Internet_.


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## reveal (Jul 7, 2005)

Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I understand the question. Also, I haven't (recently) comparison shopped at the small-business game store.
> 
> But let's say I want to buy the DMG II, and the small store was selling it at MSRP ($39.95) while Walmart.com had it for 15% less. What incentive could the small store offer me that is worth $6? And just appealing to my love of D&D is not enough.
> 
> Some local game stores apparently offer frequent shopper discounts, or free gaming space, or other loyalty programs (to use the retailing lingo) -- for whatever reason, mine doesn't. Perhaps we can agree it is not being run very well? Because without those loyalty incentives, I have no reason to pay the higher prices _when it is trivially easy for me to save money on the Internet_.




For every $10 you spend at both of my FLGS, they punch a hole in a card for you. Once you get 10 punches, you can get 20% off of your next purchase.


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## smootrk (Jul 7, 2005)

You can still be involved in Co-Op's yet be competitors.  Forming even small co-ops help to reduce the prices (for increased volume) and those small stores could/should use every weapon possible to try to level the playing field against the big corps.

and the big oil companies do a multitude of things to control prices and ensure profitability.


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## GMSkarka (Jul 7, 2005)

Most gamers on this board are probably too young to remember when Video Stores used to be all small-business Mom & Pop operations.     Now, it's all UberMegaBusterWood franchise stores, with the same selection everywhere you go.


But, hey, you got your "Attack!" for cheap, so hurrah.


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## amazingshafeman (Jul 7, 2005)

I refuse to shop at the big LGS in the area (mentioned above along with a few game companies).  They wobble between good service and absolutely horrid service about 1:2.  I drew the line when they dropped both Dungeon and Dragon mags because "those magazines advertise competitors online."  I'd go to the other major store in Minneapolis if it wasn't such a drive.


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## reveal (Jul 7, 2005)

smootrk said:
			
		

> You can still be involved in Co-Op's yet be competitors.  Forming even small co-ops help to reduce the prices (for increased volume) and those small stores could/should use every weapon possible to try to level the playing field against the big corps.
> 
> and the big oil companies do a multitude of things to control prices and ensure profitability.




I know you can. My point was the "screw the other guy" mentality is used.


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## GlassJaw (Jul 7, 2005)

> If it's cheaper, that's where I'm going. I'll save a noble attitude for noble causes.




I certainly don't think this is childish.  A little harsh perhaps but I pretty much agree.  I don't care what the product or service is, money is money.  I find it _extremely_ difficult to shell out an extra $10-12 _on average_ for the same book I can get on Amazon or ebay.

I have to agree with the sentiment that if they can't survive or come up with clever ways to attract customers, it's not my moral responsbility to keep them in business.



> I see them as the cornerstone of the industry and without them we will have no more Support for your favorite hobby




I definitely don't agree with this.  As Erik said, the hobby will take a significant blow but it will not go away.  Again, what other market relies on the sympathy of customers to keep them in business?  Business is cold and only the strong survive.

Now, that all said, I think the FLGS's are CRUCIAL to the survival of collectable miniature gaming.  The difference is that the players rely on the store itself to play the game.  It's not so easy to run mini battles in your apartment or your house.  You need large areas and terrain tables, etc.  

However, I've been getting into Warmachine lately and I still find it extremely difficult to pay for something at my FLGS when I could go on ebay or other online vendors and pay a lot less AND get free shipping.  The only thing stopping me from buying everything online and walking into the store to play with my new army is my guilt/moral code.  When I game at the store, I'm not paying for table, the terrain, the lighting, or the lease that the store owner is.  Knowing that doesn't make the higher prices any easier to take though but then again, I'm a very frugal shopper.

It's definitely a tough issue.  In general, I've never relied nor have I had very positiver experiences at gaming stores and I tend to avoid them if possible.  By getting into miniature gaming, I am reliant on the store itself.  I would almost rather pay a monthly fee to use the space to play and buy my minis elsewhere.  Or if I paid a monthly fee to play, I would get a discount on everything I buy or something.  Most game stores I've gone to in the past are extremely short-sighted and uncreative when it comes to their trade.


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## kenobi65 (Jul 7, 2005)

smootrk said:
			
		

> You can still be involved in Co-Op's yet be competitors.  Forming even small co-ops help to reduce the prices (for increased volume) and those small stores could/should use every weapon possible to try to level the playing field against the big corps.




Just a guess, but I suspect the reasons that this hasn't happened are (a) many FLGS owners probably don't look beyond their own walls for ideas, and (b) while some FLGS owners / managers are surely savvy businesspeople (hi, Thalmin!), I think a lot of them are gamers first, businessmen second -- and thus, might not even think of something like this.


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## DMH (Jul 7, 2005)

Until about 2 years ago, I would visit the LGS about 3-4 times a year. The people there were generally unpleasant and didn't know much about the smaller companies. Then a store opened within walking distance of my house and I spend about $50-80 a month there. Why? Because I want to support them and can, I don't want them to move to a place with worse parking and, last and least, they give me a 10% discount on all gaming books. It hurts a bit to see so much stuff on their shelves- I wish there was a larger gaming community around here.


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## smootrk (Jul 7, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> I know you can. My point was the "screw the other guy" mentality is used.



If only a few stores got together to address the problem, leaving their competitive issues behind for little while, they could make some progress, and I think over time more and more stores would join such a Co-Op to get at those better prices.

But I do agree with you.  Most have a screw you attitude, and those will be the stores that close faster.


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## Oryan77 (Jul 7, 2005)

It's easy for people with money to blow on gaming books/cards/minis to critisize others for buying at Toys-R-Us or Amazon instead of a FLGS. It's hard to support a FLGS when you don't even make enough money to buy your own house and you still have to pay rent and live with roommates. 

I don't kid myself...a FLGS owner doesn't care about our financial situation so why should I care about theirs; he's looking out for him & his store. I don't blame him, but it's not cool for people to critisize others for looking out for themselves too. I can't make an effort to support a guy who will give a child $3 for his collectible and then resell it in his shop for $15-$20.

If I was well off and living in my own home, sure I'd give the FLGS my business if the owner was a decent guy...but until then, I have to support myself first.

It reminds me of the time I bought my new car at the dealers and while haggling over the price the salesman said, "Come on man, I need to make _some_ money off this car, I have a family to feed". I have a family to feed also and to top that off I had to buy a new car cause the old one died on me. I think my family would care more about me saving some of the money we weren't expecting to spend on a car & get a good deal rather than supporting this salesman who's trying to rip people off anyway.


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## mcrow (Jul 7, 2005)

Amasingshaf:


If you are talking about The Source I they had both of those mags in stock last time I was there. 


I won't dispute that Fantasy Flight & Atlas stuff tend to get the best shelf space and maybe are favored a bit by the store. I don't blame them though, I'd be proud of the "companies products" and want have good sales numbers foer them. OTOH they sponser many demo events for games that other companies make such as the big Mutants and Masterminds event that started up a couple weeks ago. I have had no problem with their service . I guess with amount of customers that come through there you would likely have an unhappy customer on once in a while. If you have any problems with the service you should let Berl (sp?) know he's the manager I think.


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## Dagger75 (Jul 7, 2005)

I don't care for my NSFLGS.  I used my debit card for a large purchase and all I got was an earful complaint about how they have to pay a percentage to the credit card company. Now I know this but he didn't have to complain about it to ME, the customer who is spending money at his store.  I also bought some Stargate stuff there which wasn't cheap and he was to busy unpacking boxes to help me check.  Waited 10 minutes for him to finish plus I only use a credit card in his store.

 There are other reasons but lets just say it always feels like we are interuppting him when we go in there.



*Edit* Hit submit to soon, stupid work interupting me


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## amazingshafeman (Jul 7, 2005)

mcrow said:
			
		

> If you are talking about The Source I they had both of those mags in stock last time I was there.
> 
> I guess with amount of customers that come through there you would likely have an unhappy customer on once in a while. If you have any problems with the service you should let Berl (sp?) know he's the manager I think.




His attitude of disbelief left me less than impressed.  But I don't want to turn a portion of this thread into debating the benefits of the store.  I won't go there, but I don't slight others who do.


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## MoogleEmpMog (Jul 7, 2005)

Oryan77 said:
			
		

> It's easy for people with money to blow on gaming books/cards/minis to critisize others for buying at Toys-R-Us or Amazon instead of a FLGS. It's hard to support a FLGS when you don't even make enough money to buy your own house and you still have to pay rent and live with roommates.




No... it's not.

It's hard to support a FLGS if you think all you're getting is product.

We're talking enlightened self-interest, here.

It may actually not BE in your best interest to support your local store - for instance, if all you get is product, no services, and you don't care about the midsection of the gaming industry.

If, however, you claim the FLGS is too expensive based on UNenlightened self-interest - for instance, if all you consider is the per-purchase price of product - then you're probably losing dollars/euros/energy credits/whatever on the deal by not understanding your actual economic relationship with the store.


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## Jarrod (Jul 7, 2005)

It is all about the money, and we can't pretend it's anything other than that. 

The local store charges $10 more for a book that I could mailorder. To me, $10 is worth the ability to drop in and purchase a single die, the ability to flip through the racks of miniatures, and the ability to leaf through a book and see if it's worth buying. To other people, it isn't -- and they'll mailorder.

Not to be overly confrontational and aggravating, but saying "I'd love to shop there but I could spend that money somewhere else" is ducking the question. Of _course_ you can spend it somewhere else; money doesn't just disappear (except from my wallet...). You need to decide how much the FLGS is worth to you, and nobody else should do that for you. If they're not friendly, they're not worth it. If $10 is the difference between you eating this week and not, they're not worth it.

FLGS are not a charity. On the other hand, pricing an intangible is very difficult. 

Just don't go into the store, look through a book, decide to buy it based on looking at it, then order it off Amazon.


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## mcrow (Jul 7, 2005)

amazingshafeman said:
			
		

> His attitude of disbelief left me less than impressed. But I don't want to turn a portion of this thread into debating the benefits of the store. I won't go there, but I don't slight others who do.




That's cool the Source is not the only good (IMO) store around the Minneapolis area. I think we are lucky that way ,in our area we have 3-4 good gaming stores around.


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## reveal (Jul 7, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> I don't care for NSFLGS.  I used my debit card for a large purchase and all I got was an earful complaint about how they have to pay a percentage to the insurance company. Now I know this but he didn't have to complain about it to ME, the customer who is spending money at his store.  I also bought some Stargate stuff there which wasn't cheap, now I only use a credit card in his store.
> 
> There are other reasons but lets just say it always feels like we are interuppting him when we go in there.




A few months ago I was in my FLGS and my son pointed at a statue of the Black Cat and said "Black Cat." He's only 3 and the store owner was impressed. He gave my son a Teen Titans comic book. True, it was one of the "Free Comic Day" issues, but it's little things like that that keep me going back.


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## bolen (Jul 7, 2005)

You know Memphis had a game store and they closed.  A second one opened and closed.  

Now we dont have any game shop.  I would hope that people would support game shops.  At the same time I think too many game shop owners are not business people.  You need to be friendly to everyone not only the people who come and hang out every day.  

On the other hand, I would bet that knowing some of the types who "hang out" at the gamestore and did not buy anything cost the owners alot of money as some of these people were rather strange folk to say the least. (I think they scare off alot of newbe and casual gamers)  

So I would encourage you if you hang out at a store for over an hour and never buy anything, to reconcider your habits or you will not have a store to "hang out in".


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## amazingshafeman (Jul 7, 2005)

MoogleEmpMog said:
			
		

> No... it's not.
> 
> It's hard to support a FLGS if you think all you're getting is product.
> 
> ...




I think that accusing anyone of not caring about the midsection of the gaming industry is a bit elitist, especially in the context of enlightenment.  It breaks down into two types of gamers, those that play at home and those that play in store.  If I play in store, I buy in store.  If not, it's all about price and selection, OR other benefits offered.  Whether those benefits are worth any extra cost is definitely a personal decision, much like enlightened SELF-interest.


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## kanithardm (Jul 7, 2005)

whats an FLGS if LGS is local gaming store.


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## reveal (Jul 7, 2005)

kanithardm said:
			
		

> whats an FLGS if LGS is local gaming store.




[cue spokesmodel voice]
The "F" stands for "Friendly!"


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## amazingshafeman (Jul 7, 2005)

mcrow said:
			
		

> That's cool the Source is not the only good (IMO) store around the Minneapolis area. I think we are lucky that way ,in our area we have 3-4 good gaming stores around.




I hear ya.  When I played Mechwarrior (Wizkids version), it was great to be able to hit a tournament any day of the week except Friday.


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## Venport (Jul 7, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> For the same reason Shell and BP Amoco don't pool their resources to buy more oil, thereby lowering gas prices in






			
				reveal said:
			
		

> America: They're competitors. Screw the other guy!







I can't believe that you would Help kill FLGS over $6... not to mention my issues with Wal-Mart in general... But you mentioned Borders... how much of a discount dose that store give you? I have never seen a RPG book at borders priced lower than FLGS, and i do go to borders and read RPG material (it;s closer to my place than the nearest FLGS and i can sit in a big chair to read it) however i still dirve to go buy my books at my FLGS, in fact i can find the cheeper most of the time.



Have you seen lower prices at borders? (I’m not talking about that Sh** den called Wal-Mart)



I do understand if the guys at you FLGS are jerks or if ther is not one around I understand going online and looking for deals but to me $6 is not worth loosing the RPG industry witch i think will happen if it goes to a majority web based industry




I just hope that your FLG is crappy because if it was 1\2 way decent you should be getting out of your computer chair and buying them from a human


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## reveal (Jul 7, 2005)

Venport said:
			
		

> I can't believe that you would Help kill FLGS over $6... not to mention my issues with Wal-Mart in general... But you mentioned Borders... how much of a discount dose that store give you? I have never seen a RPG book at borders priced lower than FLGS, and i do go to borders and read RPG material (it;s closer to my place than the nearest FLGS and i can sit in a big chair to read it) however i still dirve to go buy my books at my FLGS, in fact i can find the cheeper most of the time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ummm... Was this supposed to be directed at me? I've been nothing but kind in my posts about my FLGS.


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## smootrk (Jul 7, 2005)

I think he misunderstood the dialogue that was going on.


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## Chaldfont (Jul 7, 2005)

GMSkarka said:
			
		

> Most gamers on this board are probably too young to remember when Video Stores used to be all small-business Mom & Pop operations.     Now, it's all UberMegaBusterWood franchise stores, with the same selection everywhere you go.
> 
> 
> But, hey, you got your "Attack!" for cheap, so hurrah.




I'm one of those long in the tooth (heheh 32) to remember the days before Blockbuster. But you are forgetting about Neflix. Waaay cheaper than those old Mom & Pop stores (where IIRC you had to sign a contract to rent) with waaaay more titles to select from. And Netflix is eating Blockbuster's lunch.


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## MoogleEmpMog (Jul 7, 2005)

amazingshafeman said:
			
		

> I think that accusing anyone of not caring about the midsection of the gaming industry is a bit elitist, especially in the context of enlightenment.  It breaks down into two types of gamers, those that play at home and those that play in store.  If I play in store, I buy in store.  If not, it's all about price and selection, OR other benefits offered.  Whether those benefits are worth any extra cost is definitely a personal decision, much like enlightened SELF-interest.




I'm not sure how it's elitist, unless you mean using the term 'enlightened self-interest' makes me sound like I'm attempting to appear intellectual.  As for enlightenment, it's just part of the term, which is the most accurate one for this discussion.  I'd never willingly admit to any association with that word, considering how drastically its philosophical connotations contrast with my worldview.

I wouldn't have brought the middle-tier companies up at all if Erik Mona hadn't passed on those disturbing numbers, because I had no way of knowing what effect FLGSes had on that segment of the industry.

I do agree that those who don't play in-store have less incentive to shop there.  However, if you're jeopardizing companies that provide material you want, wouldn't it be in your best interests to attempt to preserve those companies?  Particularly over relatively small amounts of money (typically no more than $15/month)?


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## GMSkarka (Jul 7, 2005)

Chaldfont said:
			
		

> I'm one of those long in the tooth (heheh 32) to remember the days before Blockbuster.




36, myself.



			
				Chaldfont said:
			
		

> But you are forgetting about Neflix.




Nope.  I've been a member since last year, precisely because of the range of selection.



			
				Chaldfont said:
			
		

> Waaay cheaper than those old Mom & Pop stores (where IIRC you had to sign a contract to rent) with waaaay more titles to select from. And Netflix is eating Blockbuster's lunch.




Well, you sign a contract to rent from anywhere, really.  That's what your "Member's Agreement" is, when you get down to it.


I think that the industry is going to lose the FLGS, and move more towards the Netflix model (not rentals, obviously, but direct-to-consumer via the internet).  You're starting to see this with RPGNow....publishers can make more profits selling directly to the consumer, and now that they offer physical books as well as PDF, that's only going to expand.

It doesn't really solve the problem of the loss of the social cornerstone represented by the FLGS (place to play, meet other gamers, etc.), but economically, I think in the long run, producers will be a lot better off.


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## jeffh (Jul 7, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> But it's not a moot point. You specifically came on here and ranted about how expensive a game was at your FLGS. The higher price *is* the point. And you were given the reasons. But to rant and then say "Whaddever" to someone who gives you reasons why your FLGS charges what it does, that's just childish.
> 
> It's like someone saying "The Earth is flat" and then putting up their hand and saying "Whatever" when someone tries to explain the basic science behind the shape of the Earth.




False analogy. The flat-earther is saying something demonstrably false, then ignoring evidence  of this. But what Sebastian said is true. Toys'R'Us' price is significantly lower than at his gaming store. You admit this is true, you're even explaining _why _it's true.

You seem to think it's self-evident that your explanation should change Sebastian's views. So you're frustrated that it hasn't. But that's far from self-evident; it's not even remotely the straightforward factual matter that the earth's shape is. Sebastian is under no obligation - intellectual, or as far as I can see, moral - to _care _why the price is lower. If the fact that it is lower is the only factor he finds relevant, then your explanation is just so much noise. You don't have to like that, but comparing him to a flat-earther for it makes you the immature one, not him.


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## Turjan (Jul 7, 2005)

Venport said:
			
		

> But you mentioned Borders... how much of a discount dose that store give you? I have never seen a RPG book at borders priced lower than FLGS, and i do go to borders and read RPG material (it;s closer to my place than the nearest FLGS and i can sit in a big chair to read it) however i still dirve to go buy my books at my FLGS, in fact i can find the cheeper most of the time.
> 
> Have you seen lower prices at borders? (I’m not talking about that Sh** den called Wal-Mart)



Usually, you get at least one 30% or 25% discount coupon per month from them, if you tell them your e-mail address. If you buy there, you usually get more coupons. I think, last month, I had about one 30% and two 25% percent coupons. Additionally, you can put it on your Borders Rewards card (but that one is not that exciting ). On the downside, they only have a limited RPG selection, so it's usually better to use amazon (usually somewhat more than 30% off on major titles, and no sales tax).

The advantage I see with a FLGS is that I tend to spend less overall. Online, I also buy books that I usually would not have bought if I had had the opportunity to look at the product before. On the other hand, my LGS is a bit awkward. They always want to talk you into buying miniatures (I don't use them at all), and they have a somewhat unprofessional attitude if you buy things they don't like *shrug*. I usually don't buy there.


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## reveal (Jul 7, 2005)

jeffh said:
			
		

> False analogy. The flat-earther is saying something demonstrably false, then ignoring evidence  of this. But what Sebastian said is true. Toys'R'Us' price is significantly lower than at his gaming store. You admit this is true, you're even explaining _why _it's true.
> 
> You seem to think it's self-evident that your explanation should change Sebastian's views. So you're frustrated that it hasn't. But that's far from self-evident; it's not even remotely the straightforward factual matter that the earth's shape is. Sebastian is under no obligation - intellectual, or as far as I can see, moral - to _care _why the price is lower. If the fact that it is lower is the only factor he finds relevant, then your explanation is just so much noise. You don't have to like that, but comparing him to a flat-earther for it makes you the immature one, not him.




The example was of someone complaining about something, given reasons why it was so, and then throwing ones hand in the air and dismissing the person explaining it with a "Whatever" attitude. THAT is childish. THAT'S what I was complaining about. It's something my 3 year old son would do.


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## Venport (Jul 7, 2005)

SOrry i was behindthat was for Joshua Randall

Sorry about that


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## GMSkarka (Jul 7, 2005)

News Flash!  Gamer displays behavior lacking in social development, choosing instead to pursue instant gratification!   In other news, water is wet.


Not much point in getting worked up about it, really.


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## billd91 (Jul 7, 2005)

GMSkarka said:
			
		

> I think that the industry is going to lose the FLGS, and move more towards the Netflix model (not rentals, obviously, but direct-to-consumer via the internet).  You're starting to see this with RPGNow....publishers can make more profits selling directly to the consumer, and now that they offer physical books as well as PDF, that's only going to expand.
> 
> It doesn't really solve the problem of the loss of the social cornerstone represented by the FLGS (place to play, meet other gamers, etc.), but economically, I think in the long run, producers will be a lot better off.




The saddest part of this will be no longer being able to go into the FLGS and actually pick up the games to look over while making my buying decisions once the FLGSs go away (assuming they do). I can't remember the number of times I've gone game shopping and been surprised by some other product and, reading over the text on the game box or in the books and feeling the instant gratification of having it in hand, been totally hooked. It's happened a lot. Without my FLGS, I wouldn't be the gamer I am today.

Fortunately, with a single hiccup that I know of because of skyrocketing rents near our new arts district, I have a pretty robust FLGS that has been going for 25 years. They offer a 20% birthday discount (bring in your ID), good grades discounts, demo space, and organize tournaments from time to time. The last time I was in there, they had just gotten the new edition of Arkham Horror and because the owner hadn't gotten a look at it yet, she broke open the shrink wrap right in front of me and we got a look at it. I haven't dug up any reviews of it yet to see how it plays, but it sure is gorgeous. Needless to say, it is now on my birthday list and I know exactly where I'll be buying it (along with several other things).


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## Tatsukun (Jul 7, 2005)

Well, if you want expensive, try a Tokyo LGS. Now you are talking $50 for the PHB and $65 for the DMG. Ouch. 

The way I see it, the FLGS is becoming a thing of the past. To stay ‘alive’ it has to change. The ones that can’t change will shut down. 

(Ok, here’s one of those (in)famous Tatsukun analogies)

Imagine you had a wheel-smith shop, and you specialized in big wagon wheels. You would do fine in the ‘old west’. But, then imagine that people started driving cars. What would you do? 

It seems some people want to demand that every car have at least one wagon wheel to ‘save the dying industry’. I, however, think that’s silly. 

The wheel-smith has got to learn to make something for cars, or he has got to change in some way to stay alive. 

---

Ok, so how can the FLGS stay alive when online places are better, cheaper, faster, and more convenient? One in Tokyo has stopped selling books and started renting out booths to gamers. They even have coffee. Think of it like a DnD café. Another shop might feature better service / help.

These aren't not the only ways, there are millions of ways. But, simply clinging to the now obsolete business model doesn’t work, and shouldn’t work. 

It’s time for the FLGS to die out it all it’s doing is offering overpriced stuff to a formerly cornered niche market. 

         -Tatsu


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## bolen (Jul 7, 2005)

GMSkarka said:
			
		

> News Flash!  Gamer displays behavior lacking in social development, choosing instead to pursue instant gratification!   In other news, water is wet.
> 
> 
> Not much point in getting worked up about it, really.




Point taken


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## amazingshafeman (Jul 7, 2005)

MoogleEmpMog said:
			
		

> I do agree that those who don't play in-store have less incentive to shop there. However, if you're jeopardizing companies that provide material you want, wouldn't it be in your best interests to attempt to preserve those companies? Particularly over relatively small amounts of money (typically no more than $15/month)?




I fully agree, if $15/month is indeed a small amount to you.  However, when that same amount represents 3 hours of labor helping rude mall kids find the latest gothic trends so they will look like everyone else trying NOT to look like everyone else, the plight of the the LGS and the mid tier companies is significantly less important.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 7, 2005)

The old-west wheel-smith needs only learn how to make a different kind of wheel.  What he can't do is compete with the mass-production of car wheels on an even basis.  Instead, he has to make custom chromes & spinners.

But we're not talking about the craftsmen- we're talking about the places where products may be sold.

What people forget is that a small business or a co-op (even a big one), simply doesn't have the economic clout that a multi-state or international corporation does.  Why?  Because they can cross-subsidize with other products.  They can sell a product below cost indefinitely by raising the cost on something else they sell.  Its a practice called "predatory pricing."  They also purchase products at volumes orders of magnitude beyond their tiny competitors...and can shift that inventory from store to store effortlessly while still maintaining that same predatory price.  For an example of the extreme power of a huge corporation, you can look at what General Motors does: they order in bulk, often paying only a penny (or less!) above cost for supplies and materials- and then they often pay their debt 15-30 days LATE.  For GM's suppliers, its like being an addict- they can't get out of the harmful relationship because they have nobody else to sell to, and any complaint gets them cut off.  Catch-22.

Other examples:

There used to be a HUGE local book store chain in the D/FW Metroplex called Taylors.  If they didn't have it, they got it for you.  Even obscure stuff.  Then B&N and Borders came through, undercut Taylors and drove it out of business.  The new guys do have fancy coffee and some service, but its NOT Taylors quality service.

A similar story happened to most of the small record shops in the area.  Because of wave after wave of "big box" (and now internet) retailers selling music at or below cost, its now next to impossible to buy a lot of the old, obscure punk, classic rock, classical, reggae, etc. WITHOUT going online.  That also means that there's no knowledgeable employees to talk to who might know about a brilliant piece of music that would otherwise never show up on your radar.

Wal-Mart will actually overbuild stores in an area to bankrupt the competition, then close their excess capacity once they have the monopoly.  Some small to middle sized towns have actually lost their entire downtown retail areas to Wal-Marts.

I don't know about other people on this board, but I was an Army Brat who moved every 2-3 years as a kid, and my post-HS studies have taken place in 3 different cities.  How did I find new games to join?  Not in big retailers, nor online, but in game stores.  When you support your local stores, you're not just supporting the owner/operator, you're supporting the subculture.  So, whenever possible, I pay that premium to support my local game stores, music shops, even farmers- without regrets.


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## Silver Moon (Jul 7, 2005)

Most of the area FLGS around these parts have only been able to stay in business during the last five years by diversifying.   This isn't just my personal opinion, my upstairs tenant is a manager at two of them.   Even branching out into sports cards, comic books, toys, used paperback books and off-site collectable shows hasn't done much more than prolong a dying market.   

These stores make very low margins.   I get a 10% discount - sure, I could buy cheaper elsewhere, but I want to keep my store in business.  Why?  Well, one reason as stated above is that they carry niche products that others won't   Another, the owner knows me, he knows what I am interested in.  If something comes by that is popular he will hold it for me before he sells out even if it means he might miss an otherwise guaranteed sale.   Customer Service is what this is all about.


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## smootrk (Jul 7, 2005)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> What people forget is that a small business or a co-op (even a big one), simply doesn't have the economic clout that a multi-state or international corporation does. Why? Because they can cross-subsidize with other products. They can sell a product below cost indefinitely by raising the cost on something else they sell. Its a practice called "predatory pricing." They also purchase products at volumes orders of magnitude beyond their tiny competitors...and can shift that inventory from store to store effortlessly while still maintaining that same predatory price. For an example of the extreme power of a huge corporation, you can look at what General Motors does: they order in bulk, often paying only a penny (or less!) above cost for supplies and materials- and then they often pay their debt 15-30 days LATE. For GM's suppliers, its like being an addict- they can't get out of the harmful relationship because they have nobody else to sell to, and any complaint gets them cut off. Catch-22.
> 
> Other examples:
> 
> ...




I agree with your examples. Big business is cruel and efficient. That is why the small fry stores need to be very creative, use all the resources and ideas that they can possibly come up with, and not rely on 'hand outs' from the kind.
Big business excels because they do all the smart things... Volume Buying, market analysis, advertising, and coming up with new and cross-product developments.
The small fry has to do more than provide a back room for kids to play pokemon in.

I like the coffee idea.  Wish my LGS had good coffee on par with Starbucks.  That would get me there more often for sure.


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## ShinHakkaider (Jul 7, 2005)

>>I think that the industry is going to lose the FLGS, and move more towards the Netflix model (not rentals, obviously, but direct-to-consumer via the internet). You're starting to see this with RPGNow....publishers can make more profits selling directly to the consumer, and now that they offer physical books as well as PDF, that's only going to expand.

It doesn't really solve the problem of the loss of the social cornerstone represented by the FLGS (place to play, meet other gamers, etc.), but economically, I think in the long run, producers will be a lot better off. <<

Agreed. I just looked at most of my RPG purchases over the past few months and 90% of them have been PDF's from DrivethruRPG and RPGnow.com. I'm one of those who dont frequent his LGS anymore, partially because I dont particularly care for the owner but partially because I can find the books that I want elsewhere cheaper. I dont game at the LGS  I play in my house, they provide no other service other than to provide me with product and if I can find that product cheaper elsewhere so be it. 

I'm reading some of these posts and watching some of these posters catch heat for doing what benefits them financially and I can't help but wonder if these same posters would b like this face to face. I'm 33 so I remember a time where, the only place to get RPG's were from places like Complete Stratigist and I've never met any of my many RPG players there. Most of the people I've gamed with were people I met in school or people I've introduced to gaming. Seriously, the RPG circle may get smaller but It will NEVER DIE, it survived video games, it'll survive LGS death. I'm a big supporter of Green Ronin and Necromancer Games as well as Phil Reed's stuff (The Campaign Planners are frickin' awesome) and I believe that they would find away to get thier product to people LGS or not. 

So in the end, my LGS does nothing for me other than supply product. If Ican find it cheaper elsewhere I will. I dont mind waiting for it from Amazon or using a 30% coupon from Borders or ordering from FRPGames or using ebay. If I dont have a problem with it (especially since it's MY hard earned money that I'M spending) no one else should.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 8, 2005)

That extra-expensive coffee is one of the products that lets B&N and Borders subsidize sale/predatory prices on other goods...

You might also note that B&N and Borders also occasionally charge different prices online than they do in the stores...for products stored in the same warehouses.  The only difference between your online purchase and your store purchase is where the product gets shipped.

But I'm not so sure the FLGS needs to do something else besides provide a game room...they just need to _leverage_ it differently.

One of the best products to sell, at least from a pure marketing standpoint, is an addictive drug.  How does one sell it?  Give out a free sample- you'll make your cost of giving out the sample back within a couple of purchases, and you're virtually assured of a "lifetime" customer.

Those game stores that have game rooms need to use them not just as hang-outs, but also as product-demonstration areas.  Lets have a show of hands- how many people have bought a game product after trying it out or seeing it played in a demo of some kind? (_Raises hand_)  Those FLGS' that don't have a game room should consider getting one.

Why?

Did anyone here participate in Borders' D&D 30th Aniversary celebration (or whatever it was) night?  I didn't- I had a prior committment- but there were many who did.  Instead of seeing a band playing in the coffee-shop, you got to see gamers...  And yes, Borders DID sell product that night- mostly overpriced sweets & coffee bevereges, but also game books.

Was it better for them than hosting a mini-concert?  I don't know (I tend to doubt it), but I can't get a straight answer from them on what kind of deal they make with those bands when they operate as a concert venue (they don't want any of the artists I represent).

But concerts tours on that scale are rare.  They can host small events like D&D night anytime they want.


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## amazingshafeman (Jul 8, 2005)

Does anyone else think the coffee at B&N (and Starbucks in general) tastes burned?  I remember as a teen, my parents sent coffee back if it tasted like that in a truckstop.  Now you add some floofy steamed milk and it costs four times more...

Sorry for the derail.


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## reveal (Jul 8, 2005)

amazingshafeman said:
			
		

> Does anyone else think the coffee at B&N (and Starbucks in general) tastes burned?  I remember as a teen, my parents sent coffee back if it tasted like that in a truckstop.  Now you add some floofy steamed milk and it costs four times more...
> 
> Sorry for the derail.




I think it depends on the store and who makes it, rather than the coffee. In Omaha, I can only get good "non-burnt" tasting coffee at one place and it's local. Here in Council Bluffs, right across the Missouri river from Omaha, I can only get it at two places; a local coffee shop and Barnes & Noble.


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## haiiro (Jul 8, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> Side rant: What's all this nonsense about "supporting" our FLGS, anyway? What are they, charities? Support, my ass.  If I want to give "support" to something it will be my family, my friends, my church, my co-workers, or my local charities.  Dear FLGS, you're a *business*, for frick's sake.  Support *yourself* and stop whining.  And while you're at it, stop jacking up the price of Attack! and other games.




On average, I don't think gaming stores tend to make a whole lot of money. Some of them probably make good money, others struggle, and some fail entirely. It's a niche market, as has been pointed out, and it's often a fairly fickle niche market to boot.

Sure, it's a business -- but the good FLGSs provide things that you can't get from an online retailer like Amazon. Don't get me wrong: I like buying gaming material online, mainly because it's a lot cheaper, and Amazon (among others) provides excellent service, IMO.

But a good FLGS gives you a chance to browse before you buy, a place to meet and possibly game with people who share your interests, and ideally has employes who know what to order and are knowledgeable about the products. Atmosphere is a lot harder to quantify, but my FLGS back in Ann Arbor was just a great place to shop: good selection, friendly staff, nice used section, good layout, and just a good vibe overall.

Add all of that up, and -- to me -- it's worth spending more money on a book from time to time to help ensure that my FLGS stays in business, so I can keep enjoying what it offers.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 8, 2005)

Anyone notice how many small coffee shops have gone under since Starbucks took over the world?

DESPITE the fact that the small guys generally (not always) had better coffee?

As for profit margins- I imagine that game stores operate on profit margins similar to that of most retailers in competitive industries (like grocery stores)- between .5 to 2%.

As for "jacking up the price"- that's not what they're doing.  They're usually charging a set markup- less than 5%.  What you percieve as them raising the price is really the big guys using predatory pricing to artificially _LOWER_ the price.


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## Argonel (Jul 8, 2005)

I have to throw my 2 coppers in the mix and say that in general I'll suuport my FLGSs for many of the same reasons as have been mentioned earlier.  In my mind the intangibles are worth it, and despite moaning over my budjet I can afford the price premium.  I do most of my gaming at friends houses, but my local stores offer gaming tables, demo copies of games to play and in store gaming groups.  They also let me browse the selves and flip through material, give me an accurate heads up on what is coming out and sometimes more importantly give me a place to sneak out to on my lunch break and just shoot the breeze for a while.  In addition to plugging The Source in Falcon Heights as a store with a great selection, I've also patronized Unicorn Games in Oakdale, and my local store is the Gamers Den in Cambridge, MN.  I see the higher prices as a tax to keep my hobby healthy, and support a local economy so people can buy what my company makes which keeps me in a job so I can afford games at any price.  I see it as a philosophical choice that I am not helping billionares get richer by exploiting cheap labor here and abroad.


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## Bront (Jul 8, 2005)

My FLGS is almost a 30 mile treck from my house.  I've been there 3 times in the past 2 years.  Of course, almost all of my miniatures I've purchased over that time have come from there, and I have probably spent less than $150 total on gaming stuff due to general free cash issues.


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## reveal (Jul 8, 2005)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> Anyone notice how many small coffee shops have gone under since Starbucks took over the world?
> 
> DESPITE the fact that the small guys generally (not always) had better coffee?




Nope. A lot of places I've been to have both a Starbucks or two and a local place or three.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 8, 2005)

Dallas: 6 coffee shops.
Fort Worth: 2 coffee shops.

(Note: In all honesty, did not look at # of coffee shops in the other 14+ cities in the metroplex- but expect to find max 2-4 to per city, for another 28 such shops.  Also did not include locations like Books-A-Million's J Muggs, which are essentially another version of Starbucks- albeit a competing one.)


Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex: 134 Starbucks locations.


Winner: Starbucks.


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## MoogleEmpMog (Jul 8, 2005)

amazingshafeman said:
			
		

> I fully agree, if $15/month is indeed a small amount to you.  However, when that same amount represents 3 hours of labor helping rude mall kids find the latest gothic trends so they will look like everyone else trying NOT to look like everyone else, the plight of the the LGS and the mid tier companies is significantly less important.




$15/month represents roughly 3 hours of work to me, too.  Not doing what you do, thankfully, but three hours all the same.  

It's still a paltry expense to me.  If I (and sufficiently large numbers of other people in my metro area) didn't pay it, I would be *unable to game*.  If Erik Mona is correct, I would probably *lose my job* because of the rising costs thereof and, perhaps, the closure of certain markets.

So that $15/month is paying for more than $1000/month of services, career opportunities and entertainment.



			
				ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> I'm reading some of these posts and watching some of these posters catch heat for doing what benefits them financially and I can't help but wonder if these same posters would b like this face to face.




I assume you mean would the same posters be giving said 'heat'?  I can't speak for the rest, but I know I would (and am) like this face to face.

My livelihood may literally depend upon the FLGS, and I'm not even an employee there.

Even if that weren't true, basically all out-of-the-house entertainment activities I engage in depend on the FLGS.


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## reveal (Jul 8, 2005)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> Dallas: 6 coffee shops.
> Fort Worth: 2 coffee shops.
> 
> (Note: In all honesty, did not look at # of coffee shops in the other 14+ cities in the metroplex- but expect to find max 2-4 to per city, for another 28 such shops.)
> ...




I've never been to Dallas/Ft. Worth.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 8, 2005)

Come on down!

The coffee isn't the big draw... Its the steaks!!!  (We have a ridiculous # of steakhouses.)  And the BBQ & Beer are also damn good, too.

Oh yeah...we game as well!


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## amazingshafeman (Jul 8, 2005)

MoogleEmpMog said:
			
		

> My livelihood may literally depend upon the FLGS, and I'm not even an employee there.




I would say this biases your opinion a bit.


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Jul 8, 2005)

For me, the FLGS (although there really isn't one) is at a distinct disadvantage across the board.  

* They can't compete on price (although I am generally price-insensitive, even I would balk at the 300% markup in the original post).  
*  They don't discount old stuff, even things that have been sitting on their shelf for 5+ years.  
* They can't compete on selection.  In addition to the obvious inability to stock everything, they frequently under-order new releases, and intentionally or otherwise mislead you when you call to ask.  
*  They can't compete on convenience -- I can have the product delivered to me a lot easier than schlepping out to the suburbs after work.  
*  They're a shrinkwrap shop, so they don't care to compete in 'browse-ability' (and with Amazon's 'Look inside' project, there losing ground on that potential advantage).  
*  I don't play CCGs or CMGs, so the fact that they offer space for that is a disadvantage, as the obnoxious and unbathed definitely detract from the environment, and distract the sales help.

Put a store within relatively easy Metro range where I can browse the books, keep the prices with 25% on most items,  seperate the retail space from the losers screaming profanities at each other over something thats happening in their game, and I'm there.

Till then, forget it.  As it stands, probably 90% of my purchases in the past year have been on-line, and the remainder were at a normal bookstore (and those were all impulse buys).


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 8, 2005)

Potential unemployment is as valid a reason to support the pro-FLGS position as saving money is a reason to oppose it.

As for:


> * They don't discount old stuff, even things that have been sitting on their shelf for 5+ years.




That depends on the store- my locals (Lone Star, Generation X, and Game Chest) do discount old stock.



> * They can't compete on selection. In addition to the obvious inability to stock everything, they frequently under-order new releases, and intentionally or otherwise mislead you when you call to ask.




My locals tend to have a broader selection than the big retailers, but can't beat online.

* They can't compete on convenience -- I can have the product delivered to me a lot easier than schlepping out to the suburbs after work.


> * They're a shrinkwrap shop, so they don't care to compete in 'browse-ability' (and with Amazon's 'Look inside' project, there losing ground on that potential advantage).




I can browse most (not all) products at my locals- only boxed games and some modules get shrinkwrap.  I haven't seen Amazon's "look inside" project, but I can't imagine they'll let you flip through an entire game book.



> * I don't play CCGs or CMGs, so the fact that they offer space for that is a disadvantage, as the obnoxious and unbathed definitely detract from the environment, and distract the sales help.




That's a pretty rude stereotype.  Not only did I play CCG's (gave up for reasons of expenses) and RPGs, I found the hygene issues between the 2 hobbies falling slightly in favor of the CCG guys- they don't want any dirt on the cardboard.  BO & RPGs are an old story.  (Though rare.)


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## amazingshafeman (Jul 8, 2005)

Despite my arguments supporting shopping for the better price and my dislike of the Source, I will go to other stores vs. , say, Barnes & Noble for one big reason.  B&N generally gets RPG books (what limited supply they carry) almost a full month AFTER the release date.  I don't know what the .com is like, but in store equals very slow.


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## wingsandsword (Jul 8, 2005)

I don't think it's all gloom and doom personally.  The owner/manager FLGS I go to most told me that they did enough sales in just the first few months of 2005 to keep them open all year.  They do great business, and I see gamers come in there from all over the state.  There are other LGS, but they are all comic book stores that just happen to sell gaming stuff, or they are more a Collectable Card & Mini store than an RPG place, so other stuff is their Bread & Butter.

I think there may be less room for FLGS than there used to be, since the internet will cut down on their market share, but I don't think they'll go away, far from it.

What can FLGS offer if not price?:
Socialization:  Y'know, there are gamers who interact in places other than internet message boards.  You can have fascinating conversations (like a thread, but with spoken words) with other gamers at a FLGS.  You can meet new gamers, even find new games, and they're probably going to be local, instead of a message board posting that seems cool but then you realize it's on the other side of the continent.

Look Before You Buy: The ultimate review in a way.  It's neato to be able to buy something on Amazon for dirt cheap, but it kinda sucks if it turns out to be awful.  It's really good to be able to walk into a store, pick up a book, read through it, and pay *gasp* cash for something, instead of buying something based on a name, a sales blurb, and maybe somebody elses reviews, and then waiting for it to arrive.

Used Books:  One of the things I really like about a good FLGS is their used book shelf.  They buy old and used books for cheap, and resell them for cheap.  Now, you never know what you'll find, and you can find some nifty surprises there too.  That's how I got my copy of the Imperial Sourcebook for the old d6 SWRPG.

Minis: Not the collectable plastic stuff, the metal stuff.  I can't imagine ordering them sight unseen from the web piecemeal.  Plastic is nice, but a lot of monsters WotC keeps as rares in the plastic stuff, it would be a lot cheaper to buy a metal mini and paint it (and if you can't paint, I'll bet you can find somebody at a good FLGS who can).  For some odd reason, a lot of people who have no problem sinking $30 or $40 for a rare WotC mini for RPG purposes only never think to buy a metal mini for $5 and get it painted for a few more dollars, saving a lot of money.  That's service online places aren't likely to give.

Appeal to a wider audience:  The funny thing about web sites is, you have to go to them.  Not everybody is online, not even gamers, and many people are still a lot more comfortable going into a "brick & mortar" store and paying good old greenbacks for something instead of getting online and using a credit card.  People can drive by a FLGS and go inside, wondering what it is, people who would never go online (occasionally at the FLGS I go to, I see confused parents and grandparents who only have the name of a book that their kid wants, and the salesman helps them find it, would they get that service online, or would they even be able to go online, find the right product, and buy it?)


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## jgsugden (Jul 8, 2005)

Attack! MSRP: $29.99.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 8, 2005)

So, what you're saying JG, is that the OP's FLGS has marked the price up by $10, and Toys R Us undercut the MSRP by $14?

Hmmmmmm......

I wonder how much it costs to produce each unit of "Attack!"?


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## amazingshafeman (Jul 8, 2005)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> Potential unemployment is as valid a reason to support the pro-FLGS position as saving money is a reason to oppose it.




True, and in fact, the exact point that I completely failed to illustrate with my too brief and originally misspelled post, but attempted to get across earlier in the board.  Neither point is invalid and it's a completely personal decision.

No matter how much I like a product and the company that produces it, if I'm pigeon holed into shopping at an inconvenient, overpriced, or rude location, I'll probably do without.  A businesses survival doesn't just depend on producing a good product.  It has to get that product to the consumers.  The company that can do that lives.

One point of data missing in the death of the LGS discussion though, is how many NEW stores opened or will open this year?  And how many existing stores expanded?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 8, 2005)

Bad locations don't deserve support, regardless of cause.  However, before abandoning a store, let the manager or owner know WHY you're upset.  You might be pleasantly surprised.  I don't know anyone who is in business to insult customers and lose money.

As for new stores, I know in D/FW its been pretty stable...since the last die-off of a couple of years ago that was partly due to overexpansion and partly due to some ill concieved stores going belly-up.  The Games Workshop location at an outlet mall pissed EVERYONE off by undercutting the costs of their products in every other store in D/FW.  Those stores dropped GW, and the crowds at the outlet mall (being highly seasonal) stayed away in droves.  I don't think they survived.

...and none of the stores I hit are expanding their premises.


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## Erik Mona (Jul 8, 2005)

amazingshafeman said:
			
		

> I refuse to shop at the big LGS in the area (mentioned above along with a few game companies).  They wobble between good service and absolutely horrid service about 1:2.  I drew the line when they dropped both Dungeon and Dragon mags because "those magazines advertise competitors online."  I'd go to the other major store in Minneapolis if it wasn't such a drive.




Which store? It sure would be ironic if it was one that I fed thousands of dollars to as a customer when I lived in Minneapolis for 25 years.

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon


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## amazingshafeman (Jul 8, 2005)

I know back home there's a great local shop that I'd buy all of my stuff from if I still lived there.  They originally opened as a place for the owner to meet and play with other gamers, as both he and his wife had full time jobs.  I don't think they've made money yet, but the local gamers have helped as much as possible, even instituting a pay to play plan for the minis tournaments held there.

What the manager has done, though, to support the store is to open a restaurant next door and name menu items after the more dedicated gamers.  Cactus Joe Chilli and the Boolah Burger are all meals close to my heart.  The Big Country Special, named after another close friend of mine, is a meal so big that if you eat in 1 hour or less, your next one is free.  Best of all, he occasionally holds tournaments wherin the prize is nothing more than helping him to create the next "special" on the menu with the victor's name in there somewhere.

That's helped the store break even and brought enough of the younger gamer's parents in that the restaurant has a serious family community built around.  Good food, good atmosphere, and a place to send the kids while socializing?  What's not to like?

What he doesn't do is pay extremely low prices for used goods which he then sales high.  Nor does he mark up his product very much.

Compare this to the LGS in my present location.  Employees that have actually ridiculed me for not knowing some obscure trivia for some anime I've never heard of.  Significant mark up on several products.  Misleading customers about product availability.  A manager that waves off my complaint because he doesn't "hire people that behave in such a base fashion."

In one place, I'll gladly pay a little more to support a company.  In another, I won't.  Does it mean I don't care about the hobby or the mid tier companies?  Not in my mind.  It just means that the store front those companies are indirectly presenting me with has more impact on my decision than the product itself.


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## warlord (Jul 8, 2005)

The Source is not an FLGS Mcrow. Its evil i know they had a copy of the Angel corebook but they were to lazy to look for it. They more of LALGS(Lazy ass local gaming store)


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## PJ-Mason (Jul 8, 2005)

My LGS is not worth the time or effort for rgpers. Its great for the throng of minature, MTG, and Pokemon enthusiasts. But when it comes to questions about game books or even comics they have apprently settled for a universal "Uh...that'll probably be in on Tuesday, maybe Friday", response to hide the fact that they have no idea what i am talking about and could really care less. They have a decent selection of D&D books and a crap shoot of a selection of other game companies, but none their employees know _anything_ about rpgs and don't see the need. Its strangely funny how such ambivelance is _worse_ than even poor or rude service, let me tell you.
It didn't use to be that way, but the store owner saw how much the minatures and card games was raking in and threw rpgs and comics (to a lesser extent) to the back burner. Which is fine...because it was a busniess decision. cool beans.

So i really am not interested in supporting a store's business who has no interest in supporting my hobby. Not that it matters because he won't be going out of business anytime soon.

So i happily buy from online stores like FRP Games and Amazon, get a discount, and have it sent straight to me. That also allows me more time to surf my favorite messages boards, just so that i can get called all kinds of names and be compared to Pavlov's Dog because i don't spend my money on some moral imperative of serving the interests of those who only see me as some damn dollar sign in the first place.


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## amazingshafeman (Jul 8, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Which store? It sure would be ironic if it was one that I fed thousands of dollars to as a customer when I lived in Minneapolis for 25 years.
> 
> --Erik Mona
> Editor-in-Chief
> Dragon & Dungeon




I searched every store in the Twin Cities for the Dungeon issue with the final Greyhawk map.  Everyone was out.  The Source specifically told me they wouldn't carry Paizo's products because they advertise the online store.  They would order them for me, but wouldn't "waste shelf space advertising competitors."  They still had OLD issues, but weren't getting new ones in.

Mccrow has indicated they now have both titles.  Perhaps the employee was wrong.  Perhaps the policy changed.  Perhaps Mccrow only saw old issues on the shelf that haven't sold yet.  The above is just my experience.


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## DonTadow (Jul 8, 2005)

Two Cents: I'll support my local FLGS and any other type of local store before the big chains.  I know its a losing battle but we're not too far from going to walmart for everything.  I just hope that supporting my FlGS's (and i'm lucky enough to have two in my community) that i will delay this for my generation.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jul 8, 2005)

mcrow said:
			
		

> If you are talking about The Source I they had both of those mags in stock last time I was there.



Indeed, I stop in nearly once a week. They have stocked them every month for at least the decade I have patronized them because I have seen them right there on the shelf by the front door. If those magazines have ever not been on the shelf it is because they sold out... which I have seen happen. Indeed, I bought all four of the Greyhawk map issues from The Source's shelves.

Another reason I keep coming back to The Source is because they have stocked smaller game company's stuff on the shelves. Bad Axe Games' _Grim Tales_, RPGObjects' _Darwin's World 2_.... I've even seen the occasional European import on the shelves.


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## amazingshafeman (Jul 8, 2005)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> Indeed, I stop in nearly once a week. They have stocked them every month for at least the decade I have patronized them because I have seen them right there on the shelf by the front door. If those magazines have ever not been on the shelf it is because they sold out... which I have seen happen. Indeed, I bought all four of the Greyhawk map issues from The Source's shelves.
> 
> Another reason I keep coming back to The Source is because they have stocked smaller game company's stuff on the shelves. Bad Axe Games' _Grim Tales_, RPGObjects' _Darwin's World 2_.... I've even seen the occasional European import on the shelves.




And this is why I don't go there anymore (partly).  The employee I dealt with in the instance of Dungeon magazine has worked there far longer than I've lived in Minnesota.  Where the miscommunication was, I don't know, but that's what I was told.

It seems with the Source you either love them or hate them, as evidenced by Mccrow and now Mr. Anondson vs. warlord and myself.  I may have to lessen the extent of my refusal to shop there for no other reason than _Battle Pope _running again, and that being the only place I can get the title.


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## Dire Bare (Jul 8, 2005)

It definitely seems supporting or not supporting your LGS (F or not) can swing drastically from region to region.  I've been in towns where gamers sigh wistfully and exclaim, "A game store?  What is this you speak of?  I know of no such thing!"  And other towns where it almost seems you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a half-decent game store.  Maybe some enterprising entreperneriul (that can't be spelled right) sort should work out some amazing plan to bring some consistency and quality to the industry.

In the last town I moved away from (Psion might appreciate this!), the place had a poor track record for game stores.  There was only one example in the seventeen years I was there of a half-decent store, and it's sadly being sold right now (although, as I don't know the new owner, it might not be sad).  All the other LGS that opened didn't last because the people running them were, well, idiots.  Rude, uncaring, no-business-sense, customer-service-lacking, smelly gamer idiots.  (This was at least four successive stores, perhaps more, memory is foggy).  

The most recent store was run by a friend of mine who had a deal on rent that helped keep him afloat.  When he was in the store, it was an FLGS, when one of the goobs he hired to watch the store while he was away was in charge, service was lacking.  While my pal's business sense wasn't abyssmal by any means, he didn't really run his store to succeed in the business world (he may have meant to, but didn't know how).  One thing he did that seemed to work really well was to hire this hawt young girl who liked skimpy tight clothes, wasn't afraid of geeks, SMILED at you and asked you how you're doing when you walked in, and had just a little bit of geek in her on her own.  After a short time, she had a FOLLOWING and that store always seemed packed (not sure if anybody was buying, but standing room only).

If the hundreds of store closures that Erik Mona mentioned are of the "lesser" type of LGS I am all too familiar with, I am not sad at all to see them go (of course, who knows).  It'd be like cutting away dead tissue . . . sure it hurts at first, but maybe you'll live longer and healthier because it's gone.  Hopefully the truly FLGS stores are still afloat and doing well!


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## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 8, 2005)

bolen said:
			
		

> You know Memphis had a game store and they closed.  A second one opened and closed.




Wow...I didn't know the Memphis store had closed.  A buddy of mine used to do board game demos there all the time, and he's not mentioned its closing.  That sucks.

There are two LGS's in my area, but both are over 30 miles away and about that far apart.  The first has a small selection of RPG's but mostly models and minis.  The second one, in Little Rock, will never see my business again.  Ever.


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## Graybeard (Jul 8, 2005)

I don't have a LGS near my house. The closest one is about a half hour away. However, there is one near where I work. It is mostly a general hobby store with models, RC planes and cars, etc. They carry a good selection of RPG books and Reaper minis though. I buy a few things from them once in awhile but it is a lot cheaper for me to buy it where I work (Borders) using my employee discount. I even get my discount on special orders and the D&D minis as well so it makes more sense for me to buy my books there. I buy Reaper minis, dice, and a few other odds and ends at the hobby store.

Chuck


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## farscapesg1 (Jul 8, 2005)

Personally, I would love to support a good LGS if there was one nearby   

When I was in college (in Oklahoma actually) we had a local shop that was great.  The guy that owned it was extremly friendly.  You could go in and look through the materials and just chat with him about gaming or hours.  He also had a back room or two that he set up as gaming rooms (though I never had a chance to game back there).  He carried some miniatures, very little wargaming stuff, a ton of RPG material, and music stuff (some instruments, lesson books, music composition books, etc.).  I spent a lot of money during high school and college there.  The only problem I remember is when he went into business with a comic book shop and the personality of the store seemed to go downhill.

Since then I have moved to Houston (actually about 45 minutes north of Houston) and I honestly haven't been able to find any good shops.  A new shop opened about a year ago nearby (in The Woodlands) and I got my hopes up.  I went in several times and most of the store is either comic books, wargaming tables, or Warhammer.  The carry a tiny section of Wizard's prepainted minis, and an even smaller section of Reaper miniatures.  Their RPG section is about 1 bookshelf.  I talked to the owner on several occasions and my biggest question was if they were going to carry more Reaper miniatures.  For 6 months he kept saying that he was working on a contract with them or something.  I'd check in a couple times a month, and pick up a couple minis letting him know that it would be great if they carried a bigger selection.  Then they didn't get any new models in for about 3 months and I haven't been back.

The guy is nice enough, but if the place is just going to cater to the wargaming crowd, then I just don't feel like spending my time there.


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## GMSkarka (Jul 8, 2005)

Tatsukun said:
			
		

> The way I see it, the FLGS is becoming a thing of the past. To stay ‘alive’ it has to change. The ones that can’t change will shut down.




Funny coincidence:   I just got the new COMICS & GAMES RETAILER magazine today (the closest thing to a trade magazine that this industry has), and there's a column about this very topic.

It's basically positing that people want in-their-home convenience, since they can get 500+ channels, digital movies on demand, play computer games online, etc., and that the FLGS needs to either figure out a way to get into the home, or provide compelling reasons to draw people out of their homes.

The author of the column specifically cites the gangbusters growth of the PDF industry as an example of game-producers "storming the castle" (getting into the home).


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## Kanegrundar (Jul 8, 2005)

For me, the price does play a factor.  As I stated eariler I get a good enough discount to actually save money going to my FLGS instead of buying online (that's even factoring in the gas to drive the 15 minutes to get there).  There are still a few things that I order online since my shop doesn't really carry them and most times I don't want to wait on a special order.  Even then, I don't tend to buy from the big companies, but stick to the smaller online shops like nobleknight.com.  

I like my FLGS.  They know me by name, hold stuff back, and even carry some games that only I and a couple others play.  It's nice.  The only thing I don't like about it is the constant groups of CCG kiddies in the place.  During the summer really sucks since they aren't in school, so it's tough to find time to get in there while they aren't.  However, once school's in session, it's a great place to sit and browse, play a quick boardgame, or just talk gaming.  As long as I live in the KC Metro area, I'll keep giving them my business.  There's no morality envolved, I like the people that work there and they keep me satisfied as a customer.

Kane


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## Jdvn1 (Jul 8, 2005)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> Maybe mine would be a RBLGS, then.



Seconded.


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## Kryndal Levik (Jul 8, 2005)

My FLGS stopped carrying many of the games I buy- for example, they no longer carry anything by Necromancer Games.  They insist that I can special order the items from them, but there's really no point, in my opinion- if I'm going to have to wait, and not get to review the product, I'll buy it cheaper from a gaming "store" on the internet (and usually do).


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## Angel Tarragon (Jul 8, 2005)

My gripe is paying the retail price on a book. While I could have bought Arcana Evolved for some $50+ odd dollars for, I got it at Amazon for $35. I'd rather pay the $35. That plus I don't need a credit/debit card to shop at Amazon or Stiggybabys.


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## Yeoman (Jul 8, 2005)

Every since I moved to michigan (from denver), I've stopped going to any of the local game stores. Most of the ones around where I live are overpriced, understocked, and some are downright asses when it comes to helping customers. So now I do all my book shopping on amazon or ebay. Unless of course I go back to Denver, in which case it is back to Black and Read for me. (And maybe Valhalla once in awhile)


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## IronWolf (Jul 8, 2005)

The closest store to me is 30 minutes away.  I have been there once in the past two years.  Another store slightly further away did host an RPGA game on a game day.  When I was there I picked up two boxes of minis to help support the store since they had hosted the game.

Beyond that I tend to purchase from online vendors.  It is easy to find the major publishers books (i.e. WotC, etc.) at 30% discounts or more.  At prices like that I can actually buy more books over a period of time than paying full price for them.

I play at home, so no use of the game store facilities for me.  I buy most of my books sight unseen, relying instead on reviews and such that I read here or other places.  I tend to buy more unique items (dice, gaming aids, etc) at one of the large conventions - GenCon or Origins.


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## Corinth (Jul 8, 2005)

amazingshafeman said:
			
		

> And this is why I don't go there anymore (partly).  The employee I dealt with in the instance of Dungeon magazine has worked there far longer than I've lived in Minnesota.  Where the miscommunication was, I don't know, but that's what I was told.
> 
> It seems with the Source you either love them or hate them, as evidenced by Mccrow and now Mr. Anondson vs. warlord and myself.  I may have to lessen the extent of my refusal to shop there for no other reason than _Battle Pope _running again, and that being the only place I can get the title.



About 8-10 years ago, I'd say that The Source wasn't quite so good, but still better than Phoenix Games.  Today?  Hands-down, it's the best LGS in the region- not just the Cities.  Dave Arneson and John Kovalic love the joint, and I've not yet heard any other big-wig to say otherwise.  It's my go-to shop for all things gaming, comic, or otherwise SF/F in my interest; I take the time to chat with Hans, Burl and some of the other employees- and they do take the time to stake out and become experts in their niches.  (Burl's the RPG guy, for example.)  Any errors usually arise from talking to someone that's not in their niche, followed up by being just a bit ahead of the relevant employee's game (as it were), but even that's going away more and more with the recent site upgrade.

If any LGS will endure, The Source Comics & Games of Falcon Heights, MN (just a stone's throw away from St. Paul- it's right next to the State Fairgrounds) is that store.  We have it very, very good here- and I certainly support my FLGS.


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## Jhulae (Jul 8, 2005)

My FLGS is close to my house and I get 30% off all my games and books.

I'm happy supporting my FLGS.


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## Goblyn (Jul 8, 2005)

I've not read the whole thread becaude it's late and I should be n bed.

As far as FLGSs go, I've never found them friendly, or local. Most of the time, they were mostly CCG or comics shops and decidedly not gaming stores, though they were the only ones in town carrying RPGs. So; not F, not L, not G. So they're just stores.

It would be sad to know that nowhere is there a place where you can go and roleplay where they sell the stuff you use to do so. However, IME, the big threat to these small retailers is Chapters.  But each Chapters has a Starbucks in it. and lots of seating. and lots of room.

I imagine that actually trying to game in such a place would be wierd and possibly get you asked to leave, it is still a neutral venue for meeting prospective players for those who like to screen before they include.

I'd better go to bed. I think I'm just rambling now.


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## Arc (Jul 8, 2005)

I never go to my FLGS to buy a specific book, or even a pack of minis or some dice. Books are cheaper online, it's easier to look through and choose from thousands of miniatures catalogued and categorized on company websites, and I can get dice any color of the rainbow and any shape that bows to euclidean geometry from a number of websites.

What I go my FLGS for is to thumb through newly released books, take a look at other systems and games that I hadn't before considered, watch a Warhammer 40k match, read half a comic book, and debate class balance in 3.5 vs 3.0 with the shop owner. Not suprisingly, I end up spending far more money at my FLGS than all my internet purchases combined. Partially because I rarely know I want a specific book beforehand, but mostly because I don't buy a book or mini or game without a good referal to it. That's what my FLGS is for. If something is recommended to me by a member of my group... I can borrow their copy. But when I want something new, I go to the place I trust.

If my FLGS wasn't around to provide that, then I imagine my gaming spending would cut back dramatically. So maybe the question that should be asked is "How much do the FLGS' support gaming economically?" (including introducing new players)


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 8, 2005)

Obviously, not all game stores or game communities are created equal.

Heck, when I started gaming, (in Denver) I had to go into a Hobby Shop (you know...trains, planes, slot cars), and in Manhattan, Kansas, I had to go 1) the student bookstore at K State, 2) the local bookstore (which only had a single rotating magazine rack), or go to stores in Topeka, Wichita, or (best of all) Kansas City to find game stuff at King's Crown.

The stores I found in New Orleans were mainly comic shops, but every city in Texas I've lived in (Dallas, San Antonio and Austin) has been home to at least one or 2 good stores.


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## GlassJaw (Jul 8, 2005)

> plus I don't need a credit/debit card to shop at Amazon




You don't?

Do you need one to buy stuff at your LGS?


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## Joshua Randall (Jul 8, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> I have to agree with the sentiment that if they [small gaming stores] can't survive or come up with clever ways to attract customers, it's not my moral responsbility to keep them in business.



Amen, brother GlassJaw. Amen.


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## fredramsey (Jul 8, 2005)

When confronted with this question, I like to use something a guy told me long ago about RC planes and cars.

You can always get a plane or car kit cheaper from Tower Hobbies (catalog before the 'net, web site now on the 'net). You can even order parts.

But, if you get ready to go fly in the morning, and realize you need part X, and don't have one, what are you going to do? Wait a week? Nope. You're going to the corner hobby shop and buy it right then and there.

The hobby store cannot compete with Tower Hobbies on kit prices, nor parts. And, they cannot survive solely on parts sales. Kits make them more profit, so they can stay in business so they can sell the parts.

So, you buy your kit from the local hobby store, knowing that you are buying insurance against the day you need a part.

While this is not an exact example of why you should support your FLGS, it's close. It's not landing wheels, it's dice. It's impulse buys. It's leafing through the game book. It's being able to look at and buy non-d20 stuff, or d20 stuff from smaller publishers. It's about being able to buy a boardgame that We-Be-Toys would never think of selling.

That's why I support my FLGS whenever I can.


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## Belen (Jul 8, 2005)

MoogleEmpMog said:
			
		

> That's terrible news, Erik; I never imagined it was that bad.
> 
> I'm happy to say that, in spite of the short-sighted 'price is right' attitude of too many gamers (or perhaps because it's not as prevalent here), all seven of the FLGSes in my region are still open for business.  Or perhaps it's because many of them offer substantial intangibles to their customers.




We have had three shut down in our area in the last 6 months.  Even the ones doing well are in pain.  Distributors such as Alliance are not getting the books to the stores in a reasonable amount of time, which is killing them.


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## VirgilCaine (Jul 8, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> So I wanted to buy the game Attack! and checked out my FLGS.  They had it for $39.99 (US funds).
> 
> Then I went to Toys R Us.  They also had Attack!.  For $13.99.
> 
> FLGS, piss off.




Same for the other FLGS--Friendly Local Gun Store. Overpriced guns or ammo means people order over the 'Net using someone else's FFL.


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## Tolen Mar (Jul 8, 2005)

HeapThaumaturgist said:
			
		

> People say "Support Your Local Gaming Store" because those stores stock the niche products that we, the niche consumer, are interested in purchasing.  These products don't sell in large numbers, so it's a pretty chancey proposition for the LGS.  With Amazon and EBay you can get stuff like that online whenever you want for less money.




Then there's my FLGS which only sells the material the store sponsored gaming clubs need to play at their place.  These days I can hardly find any non-niche stuff either.  Its turning into a big godzilla fanboy store...

Its also 40 minutes away, and since there is less and less to go that far to get, it just isnt worth it.


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## Belen (Jul 8, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> I certainly don't think this is childish.  A little harsh perhaps but I pretty much agree.  I don't care what the product or service is, money is money.  I find it _extremely_ difficult to shell out an extra $10-12 _on average_ for the same book I can get on Amazon or ebay.
> 
> I have to agree with the sentiment that if they can't survive or come up with clever ways to attract customers, it's not my moral responsbility to keep them in business.




Amazon is the reason that WOTC now sells 160 page books for the price of the 192 page books.  Paper, while expensive, has not risen that much in the last few years.  So keep buying from Amazon.  You're only going to continue to increase the price of books.



			
				GlassJaw said:
			
		

> I definitely don't agree with this.  As Erik said, the hobby will take a significant blow but it will not go away.  Again, what other market relies on the sympathy of customers to keep them in business?  Business is cold and only the strong survive.




This is bull.  Business has only gotten this way in the last two decades.  The emphasis on profit margins and the large congolmerates has forced competition out of the market.  For instance, Wal-Mart has no competition.  They dictate prices to their supplies, which force suppliers to cut costs, such as quality controls, in order to get Wal-Mart to buy their product.  Wal-Mart could be very profitable with slightly higher prices, but then, they would not enjoy those billion dollar margins.

Gamestores reinforce gamers.  They are a melting pot of ideas, a place to find new games, and discuss the hobby with others.  Gamestores make gamers.  Without them, we will see an end to the largest influx of new gamers to our hobby, until the current generations are all that remains.


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## Belen (Jul 8, 2005)

smootrk said:
			
		

> If only a few stores got together to address the problem, leaving their competitive issues behind for little while, they could make some progress, and I think over time more and more stores would join such a Co-Op to get at those better prices.




Nope.  The distributors do not work this way.  And, small co-ops will not even make a dent in prices.


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## Mercule (Jul 8, 2005)

I buy from BN.com, almost exclusively.  Why?  Plain and simple, I can very nearly get two books for every one I could get at the LGS or the brick-and-mortar BN.  Shipping costs me nothing on most books, I just have to wait two days.  Even the books that BN has at less than the $25 break point, I just buy a $3 easy reader for my 4-year-old.

There has been an apparent trend, lately, for WotC to delay releasing their books to "the big guys" for almost a month after the LGS release date.  Well, as their pre-3E study showed, most of the sales happen in those first 30 days.  By the time Heros of Battle rolled into bn.com, I just plain didn't care anymore.  I was all hot-and-bothered by the time of publication, but sometime before it made bn.com, I just emotionally gave up on it.  Too bad, too, since it was one of the two or three WotC releases I was most hyped about.  Oh, well.

To get me to support my LGS, they would have to approach (not match) the prices I could get at bn.com.  Take DMG2.  I never viewed it as a $40 book.  BN.com had it at $27, so that's what it was, in my mind.  I'd have paid $32, maybe $35, for the convenience of picking it up "on-demand" and the intangibles I could get from the LGS.  But I won't pay $40.  That's above the value I place on having the LGS.  Two days isn't a big deal to wait.  Heck, considering I just received my DMG2 on Tuesday, apparently almost a month isn't worth the $13.

The store personel would also have to shape up a bit.  It's mostly staffed by high-school/college-age boys.  They stand behind the counter, wearing ratty t-shirts and hats, with their pants low enough to show their underwear and chat with their pals.  When I try to get their attension to buy something or ask a question, it takes ten minutes to get their attension -- I was actually psyched enough about the DMG2 that I was going to buy it there, but was short enough on time that I couldn't wait for their attension.  And when I do get the chance to talk to them, they treat me like some complete tyro instead of someone who has been gaming since before they were born (I usually go in after work, on over lunch, so I'm wearing a dress shirt and slacks, but that's no excuse).  I've met the owner, and he's nice enough.  He could stand to wear a clean shirt and decide whether he's going to grow a beard or shave regularly, though.  And most of the people who are sitting at tables gaming are either emitting a strange odor, are visibly unclean, or are audibly pontificating about how much some system sucks.  The store itself has an excellent selection and is well-maintained, though.


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## MoogleEmpMog (Jul 8, 2005)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> Heck, when I started gaming, (in Denver) I had to go into a Hobby Shop (you know...trains, planes, slot cars).




I'm surprised you had trouble finding a game store in Denver!  How long ago was this?  There've been five or more stores emphasizing what I'd call 'fantasy hobby games' (minis, CCGs and RPGs) for more than a decade.


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## fredramsey (Jul 8, 2005)

Someone asked what businesses besides gaming rely on the kindness (or whatever) of their customers?

Radio Controled Modling
Model Trains

Just to name two. These same kind of conversations come up with them all the time. See my post above.


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## PJ-Mason (Jul 8, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> Gamestores reinforce gamers.  They are a melting pot of ideas, a place to find new games, and discuss the hobby with others.  Gamestores make gamers.  Without them, we will see an end to the largest influx of new gamers to our hobby, until the current generations are all that remains.




_Some_ do that. Some don't. If you have one near you that does what you say, then i am happy for you. Truly! 

However, your experience is not my experience. Apparently, its not the experience of quite a few others.


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## DonTadow (Jul 8, 2005)

Mercule said:
			
		

> I buy from BN.com, almost exclusively.  Why?  Plain and simple, I can very nearly get two books for every one I could get at the LGS or the brick-and-mortar BN.  Shipping costs me nothing on most books, I just have to wait two days.  Even the books that BN has at less than the $25 break point, I just buy a $3 easy reader for my 4-year-old.
> 
> There has been an apparent trend, lately, for WotC to delay releasing their books to "the big guys" for almost a month after the LGS release date.  Well, as their pre-3E study showed, most of the sales happen in those first 30 days.  By the time Heros of Battle rolled into bn.com, I just plain didn't care anymore.  I was all hot-and-bothered by the time of publication, but sometime before it made bn.com, I just emotionally gave up on it.  Too bad, too, since it was one of the two or three WotC releases I was most hyped about.  Oh, well.
> 
> ...




It comes down to support and seeing the big picture.  They can afford to sell at such a low price now, until they run a good number of LGS's out of business.  Once this occurs then the prices can be adjusted/raised to whatever they want because they lack competition. (See Airline INdustry, Third Party Video Game Industry, Car Industry, Pharmacuitical Industry ect).  Paying full price helps keep things balance for as long as it can.   There's no way LGS is going to get low prices because of high inventory as the Bns and Amazon's do.  At the very least you should be buying your products from Enworld, Doordice or any of the other online small companies.  This helps keep this industry honest.  So what if you got to pay 5 or 10 bucks now more for a product, its better than paying 30 to 50 dollars more once the smaller stores go away.


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## GlassJaw (Jul 8, 2005)

> So keep buying from Amazon. You're only going to continue to increase the price of books.




WotC makes the same amount regardless of who sells the book.


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## fredramsey (Jul 8, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> WotC makes the same amount regardless of who sells the book.




And?

What he was talking about was what *you* will be paying for the book, not what WOTC profits are. The middle man takes his cut.


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## GlassJaw (Jul 8, 2005)

> Someone asked what businesses besides gaming rely on the kindness (or whatever) of their customers?
> 
> Radio Controled Modling
> Model Trains




You can buy supplies for both of those hobbies online as well.

Look, are the megacorps going away?  No.  It's the American way.  Mom and pop shops need to adjust to current business climate.  There is nothing moral or personal about this issue.  It's dollars and sense (pun intended).

For example, using the model train hobby as an example.  There is a trani hobby store pretty close to me.  While they sell paint and supplied and trains, they also do a LOT of repair work.  The owner is always working on something when you go in there.  He is offering a service that the large corps can't.  

And that's really the key.  Instead of crying about the small stores going out of business, they need to adjust.  "Only the strong survive" is the order of the day.

Gaming stores need to offer something that Amazon can't.  Why try to compete with their prices when you know there is no way you can.  It's a losing battle.  So what does a LGS have that Amazon doesn't?  For starters, they have tables and chairs and a roof over your head.  They have community.  In my experience with LGS's, the extent of this is people (including some unsavory types) loitering at the store.  I haven't been to a store that has really embraced the community.

Set up tournaments with cash prizes.  Maybe try pay-to-play RPG campaigns.  With the money, you can build sets, make nice character sheets for people, get an artist to draw their characters, provide all the minis, etc.  Start a membership and give members something cool every month or access to special events or previews to new products.  Let members borrow books for a fee.

Whenever these topics start, all you hear about is doom and gloom about the LGS but I never see any of these stores do anything different.

You can't compete with Amazon or Walmart or any other megacorp and they aren't going away.  Get over it and start getting creative.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jul 8, 2005)

I shop at my local FLGS.  I do not have slavish loyalty such that I will never buy anything online, but I understand the need for LGSs and would like to see them continue to exist. It is fine to always want the lowest price, that is a natural thing; but I realize that the places with the lowest prices won't always serve all my needs.

My FLGS allows me a place to browse a book before I buy it. I can look at the actual minis I buy and be sure the ones I am getting don't have flaws - not things you can do easily online.  My FLGS allows me to special order and pre-order items, not something large stores like Toys R Us will let you do.  I no longer use my FLGS for gaming space, but I used to.  Can't do that at Toys R Us or Borders.  

My FLGS is not a charity and I will not support them if feel they are trying to gouge me or do not provide me with good customer service, but I am willing to pay a little more to get those things I cannot from other gaming sources.


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## Belen (Jul 8, 2005)

PJ-Mason said:
			
		

> _Some_ do that. Some don't. If you have one near you that does what you say, then i am happy for you. Truly!
> 
> However, your experience is not my experience. Apparently, its not the experience of quite a few others.




I have a great gamestore and for several reasons:

1.) Large, well-run gameroom.  The store is clean and they only allow bathing customers to spend time in the gameroom.
2.) D&D Dinners:  The gamestore hosts a dinner after hours once a month just for gamers.  We can to socialize, hang out, tell stories and they stay late for us!
3.) 20% discount on pre-orders and we do not have to pay shipping and will receive it at the release date.
4.) Owned and run by hot women who wear mini-skirts.
5.) They ask gamers what books, dice, and minis they'd like to see in the store.


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## GlassJaw (Jul 8, 2005)

> I have a great gamestore and for several reasons:
> 
> 1.) Large, well-run gameroom. The store is clean and they only allow bathing customers to spend time in the gameroom.
> 2.) D&D Dinners: The gamestore hosts a dinner after hours once a month just for gamers. We can to socialize, hang out, tell stories and they stay late for us!
> ...




These are some great ideas and I would definitely frequent this store.  Unfortunately, very few are this good.

Good call on cleanliness.  Since they expect people to spend a good amount of time at their store to game, would it kill these places to hire a professional cleaner to give their stores a once-over?  I'd rather not discuss LGS bathrooms either....  

I don't live at the dump so why would I want to game at one?


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## Belen (Jul 8, 2005)

Mercule said:
			
		

> To get me to support my LGS, they would have to approach (not match) the prices I could get at bn.com.  Take DMG2.  I never viewed it as a $40 book.  BN.com had it at $27, so that's what it was, in my mind.  I'd have paid $32, maybe $35, for the convenience of picking it up "on-demand" and the intangibles I could get from the LGS.  But I won't pay $40.  That's above the value I place on having the LGS.  Two days isn't a big deal to wait.  Heck, considering I just received my DMG2 on Tuesday, apparently almost a month isn't worth the $13.




No.  The actual price of the book is $40.  You may pay less on bn.com, but only until they have run their competition into the ground.  Then you will have the luxury of paying $40 plus shipping.

WOTC has started releasing books to chains late because they recognize that gamestores drive sales.  The stores breed new consumers for them.  This is the entire point of their Delegate program.  Use the stores to build a customer base and make sure that they are happy with WOTC.


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## ShinHakkaider (Jul 8, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> Amazon is the reason that WOTC now sells 160 page books for the price of the 192 page books.  Paper, while expensive, has not risen that much in the last few years.  So keep buying from Amazon.  You're only going to continue to increase the price of books.
> 
> Gamestores reinforce gamers.  They are a melting pot of ideas, a place to find new games, and discuss the hobby with others.  Gamestores make gamers.  Without them, we will see an end to the largest influx of new gamers to our hobby, until the current generations are all that remains.





This is Bull.

Gamestores don't reinforce gamers. Gamers Reinforce Gamers.
Gamestores don't make Gamers. Games and other GAMERS make gamers. 

I started playing D&D back in 1982 or 83 and didnt step foot inside an actual gamestore until 1986-87. Everyone that I gamed with in that time I met at school or lived in my neighborhood. 

Even now there are other places to meet gamers i.e. NerdNYC.com (an example because I'm in NYC) or any number of online groups. Even if you don't have a computer, if you really wanted to find gamers you could post in community centers, libraries & local schools to find players. Is it easier for some people to hang out at the local gamestore to pickup other gamers, of course. But personally I wouldnt. I'd be concerned that I'd run into the same kind of cynical/obsessive people that would scream at me for not supporting my local gamestore or that it's MY fault that WOTC raises the price of thier books because I buy from Amazon where it's CHEAPER. 

Seriously, my LGS offers me NOTHING past the availabilty of product. Immediate availabilty is not enough to warrant me paying sometimes $10 more for something that I can wait and order from Amazon. I know for certain that there are times that I windup buying MORE off of Amazon because the prices are cheaper. And as for middle market publishers or whatever as long as they have PDF's available, I'd rather buy those becasue I know that they probably get more of my money that way than than through me buying from my LGS. 

So if my LGS offered me something MORE than that availability then I'd consider frequenting them again. If the owner were even less of a jerk, I'd consider shopping there again. But I'm not going to start shopping there becasue a few message board talking heads start screaming about I should support becasue if you donnt it'd mean that YOU HELPED KILL OUR HOBBY. F**k that noise. Dont depend on gamestores to bring new people in, get off of the fricking computer and start teaching some 13-14 year olds THE GAME. I have a group of friends that I've been gaming off and on with for almost 15 years. But inbetween then I've introduced so many different people to RPG's and those were the gropus and people that meant the most to me. watching them GET IT, watching it CLICK and watching them have FUN with it. None of these people I met in a game store, I'm talking people as young a 12 and as old as 45. So yeah, ours is a niche hobby, but it's a hobby with the benfit of an ungodly amount of exposure in the media  compared to other niche hobbies. I mention D&D to people and they at least know what the hell it is I'm talking about. 

I've used D&D as a "gateway" to other games, like Top Secret, Marvel Superheores, Champions, Star Wars, GURPS, Mekton and Paranoia. I know cats that I introduced to gaming  back in HS who never gamed again and I know d00ds who are still gaming to this day and are teaching thier kids to game. So all this garbage about the gamestore is the end all be all to getting new gamers is garbage. Youre taliking about inbreeding, I'm talkling about getting new blood. I've seen people walk into a gamestore thinking it was something else, look around, realize where they are and walk out. I've walked into gamestores and be assaulted with the stench of gamer funk and walked out.  GAMERS are the end all be all to "introing" new gamers. Your Gamestore may be great and if it does what you need it to do for you then FANTASTIC, keep supporting it. But dont expect everybody's gamestore to be everything to everyone. It's up to guys like you and me to keep it moving.


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## Belen (Jul 8, 2005)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> This is Bull.
> 
> Gamestores don't reinforce gamers. Gamers Reinforce Gamers.
> Gamestores don't make Gamers. Games and other GAMERS make gamers.
> ...




No one is screaming here.  You may want to believe that no consequences exist for letting gamestores die, but you'd be wrong, and I can guarantee that WOTC does not agree with you.

I have never seen a library, community center, or school run D&D events.  I am sure that some may, but I will wager that most do not.  Not to mention that these venues do not carry the supplies necessary to start gaming  nor can you buy polyhedral dice at any Wal-Mart or bookstore that I have ever seen.

Chances are that a significant percentage of fresh blood will choose not to enter the hobby without some sort of venue that supports it.  A new gamer is not going to make sure they buy their dice online.  They will not look for the perfect mini for their character online.  They will not find a sense of community online.

ENWorld is the exception, not the rule.  For the most part, newbies do not find ENWorld, nor do they find RPGnet.  They may find some friends in high school or college, but what happens to people once they are out of school and not meeting people so often any longer?  The internet is not the place for a casual gamer.  The net is the place that experienced gamers go to chat.


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## Zaukrie (Jul 8, 2005)

This is a great discussion. For anyone that thinks price should be their only deciding point, you should try to find an issue of the Economist from 2004 that does economic research on hyper-efficient companies like WalMart. New research shows that this efficiency is likely to decrease our standard of living as our wages are driven lower. Of course, other economists disagree - buy if you are going to make claims like some on this board, you might want to be informed of both arguements.

As for the FLGS, I too am lucky enough to live in the Twin Cities, where there are numerous game shops. Service at some of the stores is very dependent on the employee present. I find Phoenix the least friendly to non-minis players. Dreamers is the nicest, but their selection of RPG materials is iffy. The Source, as Monte Cook described it last year, is probably the best gaming store in the US. It stocks nearly every printed gaming product their is, has board games and minis galore. The service is hit and miss. If you play DnD minis skirmish, we have such great support that we actually get 2 sites for pre-release events. If you think that hobby will grow by buying on-line or from one of the chains, I'm not sure what arguement I could use to convince you otherwise.

I support my FLGS (many of them) not as a charity, but because I believe in the long run, I am better off if there are more gamers, if there are more places to buy from, and if there are more games in print. I don't believe that Walmart, Target, Barnes and Noble....care one iota about games and gamers. I don't believe for one minute that there will be more than a handful of gaming companies left, unless I buy from the FLGS. Do I think less of anyone that disagrees - no.


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## Weyland (Jul 8, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> I have never seen a library, community center, or school run D&D events.  I am sure that some may, but I will wager that most do not.  Not to mention that these venues do not carry the supplies necessary to start gaming  nor can you buy polyhedral dice at any Wal-Mart or bookstore that I have ever seen.
> 
> Chances are that a significant percentage of fresh blood will choose not to enter the hobby without some sort of venue that supports it.  A new gamer is not going to make sure they buy their dice online.  They will not look for the perfect mini for their character online.  They will not find a sense of community online.




Additionally (and I don't think it's been mentioned, but I'm undercaffinated and could be wrong), you can't discount the ability to browse shelves and see what other games are out there.  Sure, you can do it with Amazon, but it's not nearly as convenient.  Plus, you have (at least in a good FLGS) someone behind the counter to ask for recommendations or ideas.

The browsing and human contact count for a lot in my book.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jul 8, 2005)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> So if my LGS offered me something MORE than that availability then I'd consider frequenting them again. If the owner were even less of a jerk, I'd consider shopping there again. But I'm not going to start shopping there becasue a few message board talking heads start screaming about I should support becasue if you donnt it'd mean that YOU HELPED KILL OUR HOBBY. F**k that noise.




OK, I have not read every post in this thread, but I don't think people are really advocating supporting a lousy business.  I think the idea is that price is not the only factor to consider.  

I like to support some local restaurants in my area.  They have good food, great service and a nice atmosphere.  I prefer them over the large chains like TGIFridays or Outback even though I might get more food at a lower price.  I _ won't _ put up with a restaurant that has crappy service, lousy atmosphere or charges exhorbitant prices for ordinary food just because I want to support the local restaurants, but if the cost is only slightly more and other things are equal, I will chose the local place over the chain. A bonus in my mind is that it is much more likely a larger portion of my money will stay in the local economy, and that is a good thing.


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## jgbrowning (Jul 8, 2005)

Untill I can browse a complete book online, I'll shop at a FLGS. Money is important, but when buying unknown material, I prefer to browse before purchasing.

This is, ironically enough, why I'm not a big PDF purchaser although I sell them. This also explains why my freebies (previews) are complete chapters from the larger work.

joe b.


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## Mystery Man (Jul 8, 2005)

Weyland said:
			
		

> Additionally (and I don't think it's been mentioned, but I'm undercaffinated and could be wrong), you can't discount the ability to browse shelves and see what other games are out there.  Sure, you can do it with Amazon, but it's not nearly as convenient.  Plus, you have (at least in a good FLGS) someone behind the counter to ask for recommendations or ideas.
> 
> The browsing and human contact count for a lot in my book.




What's to stop anyone from going to the FLGS and browsing then going and buying online for 10-15 dollars cheaper? If I was a gaming store owner I would get irritated with that practice. Most likely I'd get irritated with myself, because that's what I do unless I've gotta have it absolutely _right now_, which is rare.


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## GlassJaw (Jul 8, 2005)

> You may want to believe that no consequences exist for letting gamestores die, but you'd be wrong, and I can guarantee that WOTC does not agree with you.




Belen, you sound like you have a great FLGS but from my experience in dealing with LGS, I haven't seen any evidence that gaming stores support and grow the hobby.  If I based my interest in the hobby on game stores alone, I would have been turned off long ago.

Friends and family introducing the game to others is what keeps the hobby going.  I highly doubt there have been many people who have walked into a LGS because they were curious about the hobby.  I'm not saying it hasn't happened but my guess is that a far greater number have been introduced to the hobby by someone they know.

I know it's wishful thinking but I would realy like to see some marketing data that details the sales and number of customers at LGS.



> The internet is not the place for a casual gamer. The net is the place that experienced gamers go to chat.




I definitely disagree on this.  Virtually all the people I've gamed with, both casual and serious, I've met via some kind of online source.  I would agree that casual gamers don't post on EN World but they certainly make use of the internet to find other players.

Again Belen, I think your view is slightly skewed by the fact that you've had very good experience with gaming stores in the past.  I certainly haven't and I've heard more negative comments about people's LGS than positive.


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## GlassJaw (Jul 8, 2005)

> The browsing and human contact count for a lot in my book.




I think browsing is overrated.  The people that are going to buy material from smaller publishers are probably already aware of what the product is from message boards like EN World.  You can also read reviews.  Browsing isn't worth $10 in my book.

And as Mystery Man said, why not go browse and then by online?  $10 more in my pocket is a half a tank of gas or a couple of meals.

Human contact?  Yikes.  My LGS is the last place I'd want to go if I'm in need of human contact.


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## smootrk (Jul 8, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> OK, I have not read every post in this thread, but I don't think people are really advocating supporting a lousy business. I think the idea is that price is not the only factor to consider.
> 
> I like to support some local restaurants in my area. They have good food, great service and a nice atmosphere. I prefer them over the large chains like TGIFridays or Outback even though I might get more food at a lower price. I _ won't _ put up with a restaurant that has crappy service, lousy atmosphere or charges exhorbitant prices for ordinary food just because I want to support the local restaurants, but if the cost is only slightly more and other things are equal, I will chose the local place over the chain. A bonus in my mind is that it is much more likely a larger portion of my money will stay in the local economy, and that is a good thing.



A restaraunt is a very good example of the type of things that small game stores need to do.

No, I do not mean food, but look at fancy restaraunts which charge a lot for their food. The ambiance is usually perfect for the occasion. They have many staff who are experts at what they do (Host/hostess, Servers, Chef's). The silverware is polished and perfectly set. And the food is served with excellent presentation.

Now, in my eyes, most games stores do not even come close to having good organization, expert staff, good manners, or even cleanliness enough to compare.... But we see why the excellent restaraunts charge so much... they are excellent in all areas that they can be. 

Game stores obviously do not follow this approach, or even attempt to follow an approach that addresses enhancing the experience of visiting their stores. They generally wait behind the counter for you to pick up something to buy. Sure, they might have an answer for a question, but are they enhancing your experience of visiting them? I would say no in most cases.


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## spectre72 (Jul 8, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> A new gamer is not going to make sure they buy their dice online.  They will not look for the perfect mini for their character online.




I am going to start by saying that not everyone has a LGS to shop at and we have to rely on the internet and mailorder.

And you know what, the game still goes on.

People still show up with dice, miniatures, rulebooks, ...etc.

We get new players all the time, and have a game group in Southern Vermont which numbers over 25 gamers.

If a LGS was to open they would only get my business if they deserved it.

Decent pricing, good service, and none of the BS which seems to plague Games Shops.

I have been way too deeply involved with a couple of different game stores over the last several years either doing demo's for a couple of different companies or as a friend of the owners and I have seen too many of them slit their own wrists and go out of business.

I know that they cannot order at the same discounts as the big retailers but that is only the tip of the iceberg.  

Many of the individuals who I have seen open game stores try to run them as clubs for their friends instead of businesses, and if you want to survive as a game store it has to be as a business.

Perhaps some of the people who opened stores in the Pokemon/Magic CCG craze days need to go back to school and figure out how to keep a business running without selling cardboard or plastic crack to their customers.

I am sure there are great LGS out there that deserve our patronage, but could everyone please get off of this crusade to save the LGS since alot of them don't deserve to be saved.

They are not a charity, and if they cannot figure out how to stay in business then they should not be in business.

Most of the individuals who I have been involved with who have run Gaming Stores opened them for the wrong reasons and in the end this is what caused the store to close.  They were looking to take advantage of a trend (pokemon, magic, mageknight) or they were big time gamers who thought it would be neat to own a game store.  

The problem with both types of stores is that they were rarely opened by someone who understood how to run a retail store.

I could write pages of stuff that I have watched which is just horrible business practice...

Taking money out of the register to take your wife to dinner and not having $$ to pay for your orders which are coming in.

Special ordering books for someone and then selling them to one of your friends after already calling the customer who ordered them and telling them they were in..

Scheduling a pokemon tournament at the same time you scheduled a product demo with someone who had to drive an hour and a half and didn't notify the demo person of the conflict (happened more than once)  

Selling MTG cards to 2 people in line, same pack but 2 different prices depending upon how much you like them.  And both people hear what the other paid  

Ignoring customers while they play games or discuss their campaigns with their friends  

And the list goes on and on...

So I will agree that supporting a FLGS  is a good idea if you play there or they give you good service, pricing, ...etc.

Could everyone stop the crusade to support LGS because they should only get your support if they deserve it.

If you throw money at one of these bad stores all you are doing is putting a bandaid on a gushing wound, and you could be paying for the owner and his wife to go out to dinner while the store falls apart (like I did more than once :\ )

Been there, done that, not doing it again....


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## Venport (Jul 8, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> Virtually all the people I've gamed with, both casual and serious, I've met via some kind of online source. I would agree that casual gamers don't post on EN World but they certainly make use of the internet to find other players.
> 
> Again Belen, I think your view is slightly skewed by the fact that you've had very good experience with gaming stores in the past. I certainly haven't and I've heard more negative comments about people's LGS than positive.




I Started Gaming about a year and half ago, I was a casual gamer, however i still wanted to konw more, the internet is the only place you can ask questions 24\7 and is one of the easyest way to find more info. However i bleave the FLGS are critical to the hobby suviving. 

I do also think that it all depends on the LGS, I can think of 4 Gaming stores in the area where i live (i think there are more but i would have to chekc) there is 1 THAT I WILL NOT GO TO, the people there are rude and bother me, 1 of the others i will only go to to get my RPG books (25% off of all RPG stuff is a deal, and that's all the time) other than that the owner dose not seem to like RPG players so i will not buy anything else there, 

However The other two stores seem to encurage RPGS and are fun places to just stop by to 10-15 min when i have some free time, talk a little about Eberron or whatever the topic is that the time, (maybe the fantasitc 4 movie witch i saw in a pre showing last night GREAST STUFF sorry) and is a frendly envroment

I understand not supporting a store that has rude people and i'm sorry that some are like that.


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Jul 8, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> I can guarantee that WOTC does not agree with you.




This would be the same WotC that closed all their game stores?



> I have never seen a library, community center, or school run D&D events.  I am sure that some may, but I will wager that most do not.  Not to mention that these venues do not carry the supplies necessary to start gaming  nor can you buy polyhedral dice at any Wal-Mart or bookstore that I have ever seen.




They may not run events, but they provide places to game.  And one of the beautiful things about RPGs is you don't need much in the way of supplies.  One set of books and a couple sets of dice to share and you are good to go.

I've seen more RPGs run at college game clubs and such lately than at game stores.  Most of the game stores I've been in in the past decade have been far more interested in pimping CCGs and now the minis than the RPGs, and they'd rather not see CCGs as a gateway drug to RPGs, since the CCGs bring in more money.

You don't pick up hobbies retail.  You pick them up through friends, or relatives.  I got into D&D because my Dad knew I'd enjoyed reading the Hobbit and LotR.  He saw the boxcover of the edition with the red dragon at a local bookstore (not gamestore) and got it for me for Christmas.  A kid at school saw me reading it at lunch, and his Dad had gotten him into wargaming.  The group grew from there, and 25 (Christ, I'm old) years later, I'm still interested in the hobby.  The only gamestore where I grew up was a hobby-shop run by an ogre who was more interested in the models and RC stuff.  He stocked the stuff cause it sold, but I'd say even in the early 80s 50% of our gaming purchases were mail-order, and that was a lot harder then than now.



> Chances are that a significant percentage of fresh blood will choose not to enter the hobby without some sort of venue that supports it.  A new gamer is not going to make sure they buy their dice online.  They will not look for the perfect mini for their character online.  They will not find a sense of community online.




To start?  No.  The first few times, they'll be using the stuff provided by their gamemaster.  But if they get hooked, they will.  Are you seriously telling me that a demographic that has changed the music and movie industries through their on-line activities is incapable of finding dice on-line, or ENWorld?



> ENWorld is the exception, not the rule.  For the most part, newbies do not find ENWorld, nor do they find RPGnet.  They may find some friends in high school or college, but what happens to people once they are out of school and not meeting people so often any longer?  The internet is not the place for a casual gamer.  The net is the place that experienced gamers go to chat.




Newbies don't find game stores, either.  Or hobby shops, sporting goods stores, or anything else.  The stores can nurture, but they can't create.  A kid with no knowledge of or interest in RPGs isn't going to go into a game store, any more than he's going to walk into a sporting goods store and discover baseball.

If we're counting on the FLGS to save the hobby, we're already doomed.  They are too few, too unfocused, too mismanaged, and too customer-unfriendly.  The good ones are outnumbered by the bad.   The hobby needs us to teach our kids to game the way our dads taught us to throw a fastball.  It needs to ditch the stigma of the unwashed geeks playing in the basement.  It needs better marketing, better entry-level products, and better penetration of traditional retail establishments.  

What it doesn't need is this attitude that customers should be grateful for the privilege of buying stuff at or above retail with nothing else offered in return, or guilt-trips that we're killing the hobby if we make informed decision as consumers.  I would cheerfully support a FLGS if there was one.  But it had better be friendly, local, and at least somewhat focused on the kind of gaming that I do.


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## Zaukrie (Jul 8, 2005)

I agree with one of the messages here: if your LGS is not friendly, doesn't know how to run the store as a business....they don't deserve your business.


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## Belen (Jul 8, 2005)

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> This would be the same WotC that closed all their game stores?




Yes.  That would be the same WOTC.  Wizards is quite active in supporting gamestores.  They have an entire delegate program aimed at helping game stores.



			
				Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> What it doesn't need is this attitude that customers should be grateful for the privilege of buying stuff at or above retail with nothing else offered in return, or guilt-trips that we're killing the hobby if we make informed decision as consumers.  I would cheerfully support a FLGS if there was one.  But it had better be friendly, local, and at least somewhat focused on the kind of gaming that I do.




And when have I ever stated that people should support the unfriendly local game stores (ULGS)?  

To me, it seems like there are a lot of people in this thread who feel the need to justify why they choose Amazon or Wal-mart for their gaming needs.  Heck, I used to buy from those venues myself; however, I have since seen the light.

The only online vendor I use is the ENWorld store.  This place deserves my support.  I have found no other online store worth my money.  However, my FLGS has always been there for me.  I may pay higher prices than Amazon, but they provide a place to game if I need it, a friendly environment, and they even brew free coffee for their customers if they want it.


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## farscapesg1 (Jul 8, 2005)

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> This would be the same WotC that closed all their game stores?




 

This is something I had completely forgotten about (since there was never a WOTC store anywhere that I lived).  If WOTC is so adamant about the LGS stores being important, you have have an excellent point.


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## the black knight (Jul 8, 2005)

My FLGS applys no discount whatsoever to their merchandise and that's enough to turn me away right there. It doesn't have to be a big discount, mind you, just a little something to show that they're competitive and that they care about their customers. 5% would do it, and that's not a lot, people, but this largely symbolic gesture is one they are utterly indifferent to.

Now, keep in mind that not just a few of these guys OWN their own stores, so it doesn't matter if they're losing money one month and doing well the next; the rent is paid, if you know what I mean, which reemphasizes the fact that they really don't care all that much about gamers in the first place. Personally, I think they just want a place where they can hang out, play D&D, meet new gamers, and stay out of the sun.

It is the illusion of actually being a business that bothers me. And that's why I buy from Amazon.


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## Glyfair (Jul 8, 2005)

farscapesg1 said:
			
		

> This is something I had completely forgotten about (since there was never a WOTC store anywhere that I lived).  If WOTC is so adamant about the LGS stores being important, you have have an excellent point.




Actually, the local game stores are glad they closed them.  They don't want to compete with stores run by the company that produces a good percentage of the products (even if it was poor competition).

Besides, it wasn't a business they were suited for.  That's why they closed them.

This is unlike at least one other gaming company that gained a reputation for requiring retailers to spend money upgrading displays of their products, only to open a store a few blocks away within a couple of months.


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Jul 8, 2005)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> Actually, the local game stores are glad they closed them.  They don't want to compete with stores run by the company that produces a good percentage of the products (even if it was poor competition).
> 
> Besides, it wasn't a business they were suited for.  That's why they closed them.
> 
> This is unlike at least one other gaming company that gained a reputation for requiring retailers to spend money upgrading displays of their products, only to open a store a few blocks away within a couple of months.




Probably short-sighted of the LGSs, although I can understand the reaction.  Still, I suspect it was more the bleed-off of the CCG business that irked them rather than the RPG.  Perhaps Xath or Queen Poppe...Dopplop...Queen D. can provide some insight, but I used to hit the Pentagon City store once every few months, and saw a definite trend away from the RPGs and towards the other stuff, not to mention the disappearance of non-WotC material.  I'd think that a FLGS interested in the RPG market for its own sake would have like having the WotC stores around, if for no other reason than they tended to be located where kids actually could wander in and be exposed to the hobby.

The sad thing is is that this curious little pasttime of ours will likely never attract the sort of investment necessary to make it mainstream.  It's too small a fish for Hasbro, and too big an investment with too uncertain a return for a smaller company.  Although I really dislike much of what I've seen of the D&D MMORPG, I am at least hopeful that it might bring some fresh blood into the hobby.


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## Belen (Jul 8, 2005)

the black knight said:
			
		

> Now, keep in mind that not just a few of these guys OWN their own stores, so it doesn't matter if they're losing money one month and doing well the next; the rent is paid, if you know what I mean, which reemphasizes the fact that they really don't care all that much about gamers in the first place.




This is so much bull that I have no idea where to shovel it.  People who own busines rarely own the space that they use.  They pay rent, just like everyone else.  

You have no idea what you're talking about.


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## Gomez (Jul 8, 2005)

I am going to have to say that I am with BelenUmeria on this one. I have only good memories and feeling for my local gaming stores. I have at least 3 within easy driving distance. To say that Game store owners don't care about gamers is just crazy.


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## The Shaman (Jul 8, 2005)

I still shop at my LGSs because I like to see products before I buy them - one of my stores marks down a bit so that I'm not paying top-dollar, which I appreciate.

I was a bit disappointed in my other LGS recently - I wanted to look at d20 _Apocalypse_, a pretty recent release, and it was already buried in a bin instead of displayed with the other Modern books. I also asked them about ordering minis from a line they don't normally carry and they weren't interested - I understand they don't get the bulk buying advantage and such, but as a former shop manager I know that these kinds of special orders build up customer good will and make them (and me) more likely to be repeat/loyal customers. Going that extra bit can mean a lot of the course of years.


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## der_kluge (Jul 8, 2005)

You know, the argument about leafing through a book is good, I suppose, but most of the books I've bought because I flipped through them and bought ended up being kind of worthless.

I tend to buy much better products by listening to what others have bought and reading reviews, and listening to trends.  So, I'm not sure I even need an FLGS to find the best quality books out there.

There are only 2 LGSs in my area, and one is fairly new, and I've not even been to it yet.  The other is a decent place, that has a good selection of books and a ton of miniatures, as well as assorted puzzles, games, and other trinkets. It's in a very high foot-traffic area, and survives on more than just role-playing games, which is smart from a business standpoint.

All I've ever bought there are WoTC minis because they break them out of the box and sell them individually, but according to some of the guys I game with, they're way overpriced, so next time I feel the need for some minis, I may just go online, since apparently eBay's prices are much more reasonable.


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## the black knight (Jul 8, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> This is so much bull that I have no idea where to shovel it. People who own busines rarely own the space that they use. They pay rent, just like everyone else.
> 
> You have no idea what you're talking about.




Now why don't you give ME a break. Not all gaming stores are to be found in strip malls. Sometimes people own what are called BUILDINGS, however small they may be, and they operate out of those BUILDINGS they OWN and DO NOT pay rent on them. I've seen it myself, and the results thereof.

Wake up and join the real world.


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## Erik Mona (Jul 8, 2005)

Corinth said:
			
		

> About 8-10 years ago, I'd say that The Source wasn't quite so good, but still better than Phoenix Games.  Today?  Hands-down, it's the best LGS in the region- not just the Cities.  Dave Arneson and John Kovalic love the joint, and I've not yet heard any other big-wig to say otherwise.




Before moving to Seattle to edit Polyhedron in 1999, I lived in St. Anthony and had a weekly comic box at the Source Comics and Games, and always had a great relationship with the staff there (especially the bald owner guy, whose name I can't remember but who shared my love of DC's golden age characters). It is, hands down, the best comics and game store I've ever shopped at, and I'm thrilled to hear they're still doing well.

I also like Phoenix Games a lot back in the day. I probably gave that store more of my money than any other in the state during my obsession with first edition Warhammer 40K.

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon


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## Quasqueton (Jul 8, 2005)

> Some people operate in the spaces that they OWN and DO NOT pay rent on them. I've seen it myself, and the results thereof.



Do you, personally, "own" a home? I'm guessing you don't.

Quasqueton


----------



## the black knight (Jul 8, 2005)

Gomez said:
			
		

> I am going to have to say that I am with BelenUmeria on this one. I have only good memories and feeling for my local gaming stores. I have at least 3 within easy driving distance. To say that Game store owners don't care about gamers is just crazy.




Sure, they'll offer you products like any other BOOKSTORE, and they'll take your money like any other BOOKSTORE (maybe even smiling in the oprocess - money does that to some people, you know), but face it, they offer nothing in the way of incentive other than hanging out with a bunch of unwashed, overweight gamers crammed into a less than comfortable space. 

Oh joy.

No, I'll take the discounts from Amazon ANY DAY of the week over these so-called 'friendly' institutions. Screw the local gaming store. I hope they all go under. The hobby will survive just fine without them.


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Jul 8, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> You don't?
> 
> Do you need one to buy stuff at your LGS?



Correct and no to your questions. However my point is is that most online stores require you to have a credit/debit card on file. Failure to have one means failure to have commercial transactions on the buyers part.


----------



## Kanegrundar (Jul 8, 2005)

the black knight said:
			
		

> Screw the local gaming store. I hope they all go under. The hobby will survive just fine without them.




That seems unneccesarilly cruel.  Those that own the shops are, after all, just working stiffs like the rest of us.  Shop there or not, but there's no reason to wish ill upon those that you don't shop from.

Kane


----------



## the black knight (Jul 8, 2005)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> Do you, personally, "own" a home? I'm guessing you don't.
> 
> Quasqueton




Yes, to the tune of 800k. Feel better now?


----------



## the black knight (Jul 8, 2005)

Kanegrundar said:
			
		

> That seems unneccesarilly cruel. Those that own the shops are, after all, just working stiffs like the rest of us. Shop there or not, but there's no reason to wish ill upon those that you don't shop from.
> 
> Kane




Businesses that offer nothing to a hobby other than the illusion of good-will should either get their acts together or be put out of business, and that's the last I will say on the matter.


----------



## Quasqueton (Jul 8, 2005)

> Yes, to the tune of 800k. Feel better now?



So you pay nothing each month for it? Because you *own* it.

Quasqueton


----------



## TheYeti1775 (Jul 8, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Correct and no to your questions. However my point is is that most online stores require you to have a credit/debit card on file. Failure to have one means failure to have commercial transactions on the buyers part.




Amazon lets you pay via Postal Money Order.


----------



## billd91 (Jul 8, 2005)

the black knight said:
			
		

> Now why don't you give ME a break. Not all gaming stores are to be found in strip malls. Sometimes people own what are called BUILDINGS, however small they may be, and they operate out of those BUILDINGS they OWN and DO NOT pay rent on them. I've seen it myself, and the results thereof.
> 
> Wake up and join the real world.




A good many of us do live in the real world and whether they are part of a strip mall or not, I can only think of one game store that I believe owned its own space (this is out of 6 that I have frequented). The other 5 I KNOW didn't own their own space and only 2 of them were in strip malls.
It's simply not that common for small businesses to own their own retail space, especially in larger cities. And if they did, their mortgage and maintenance would have been more than the rent.


----------



## kigmatzomat (Jul 8, 2005)

It definitely varies from region to region.  If you're the only LGS for 200 miles you can afford to be someone we couldn't talk about in front of Eric's mother.  On the other hand, competition tends to force evolution.  

Here in Louisville we have three LGS, two of which are regional chains.  the Preston Book & Music Exchange is part of a used book/music/video game chain with a decent new game selection.  The Great Escape is a used book/music/toy store with a good game selection and Comic Book World has a huge number of new and old comics and an extensive RPG selection.  

All have plusss and minuses.  BME has friendly gamer staff but they are a little more "relaxed" about things (read cluttered and semi-organized) and their gaming tables are often over-run by the underage CCG crowd.   Escape's the smallest and doesn't really have many gamers on staff but *someone* there likes eclectic games so it's okay.  CBW has a huge stock but they tend to shrink wrap, their staff are 90% comic book folk (explaining the shrinkwrap) and their gaming area is usually a wargame diorama.  

I've been going to these shops for around 15 years and they pretty much hit the FLGS gamut.  I'm partial to BME b/c I went to college with one of the managers and do most of my shopping there.  Not all, sometimes the Escape has something unique or used and CBW's backstock is hard to beat during the holidays.  

Perhaps as a side effect, all the local chains have a decent (if not awe inspiring) gaming collection.  The ones farther away from the LGS tend to have a few more non-WotC books.  It's still just one bookcase, though.  So the only time I buy game books at non-LGS is when I get a gift card.  But I could survive on the chains if I didn't have a car to get to the LGSs.   I doubt it would be as easy if it wasn't for the LGSs.


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Jul 8, 2005)

TheYeti1775 said:
			
		

> Amazon lets you pay via Postal Money Order.



or with personal check.


----------



## wingsandsword (Jul 8, 2005)

the black knight said:
			
		

> Now why don't you give ME a break. Not all gaming stores are to be found in strip malls. Sometimes people own what are called BUILDINGS, however small they may be, and they operate out of those BUILDINGS they OWN and DO NOT pay rent on them. I've seen it myself, and the results thereof.
> 
> Wake up and join the real world.



Every FLGS I've ever seen was in a strip mall, or a regular mall, or some rented retail space.  There probably are some where the owner owns the whole thing, lock stock and barrel, but they are in the minority, just like the rest of small retail businesses.

I've had good experiences with FLGS, and I support them because I don't like to shop online, I don't like having my gaming materials delivered by the mail, I like to actually browse a physical store that is near me.  I like having a place I can go in and meet new gamers, and has employees who actually know their wares.  It may be a few dollars more expensive, but that's what happens when you shop in the real world.

Also, could you tone down the bile a few notches please?  You don't need to come in here spewing fire, bragging about the price of your home and whatnot.  ENWorld is usually a pretty nice place, and I think we'd all like to keep it that way.


----------



## Quasqueton (Jul 8, 2005)

> bragging about the price of your home and whatnot.



That was bragging?

Quasqueton


----------



## fredramsey (Jul 8, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Also, could you tone down the bile a few notches please?




He was responding to this:



			
				BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> This is so much bull that I have no idea where to shovel it.  People who own busines rarely own the space that they use.  They pay rent, just like everyone else.
> 
> *You have no idea what you're talking about*.




Attackers usually get it back in spades. Hard to resist, really.


----------



## kigmatzomat (Jul 8, 2005)

Addendum: if you note, all the stores have something other than RPG/CCG to fall back on and it's usually a synergy.  RPG folks are readers so we tend to pick up fiction and reference books constantly so the used book stores get double damage.  Comics and CCG/RPGs are also pretty closely related, as are video games.

Good business sense says that if your market isn't big enough to support you through good and bad times, expand your focus.  These stores are all FLGS but they each serve different market segments both in products and location.  I figure the CBW is the one at the greatest risk b/c of it's focus but they have a bit more bulk-buying power than the others that makes up for it.  

Anyone looking at opening an FLGS should consider contacting the one in the next town over and forming a buying co-op to reduce the rates for everyone without fragmenting the markets.


----------



## fredramsey (Jul 8, 2005)

My FLGS is packed every weekend with Magic players and Pokemon. I'm certain that helps things out a lot.

As does the high price of GW stuff.   



			
				kigmatzomat said:
			
		

> Addendum: if you note, all the stores have something other than RPG/CCG to fall back on and it's usually a synergy.  RPG folks are readers so we tend to pick up fiction and reference books constantly so the used book stores get double damage.  Comics and CCG/RPGs are also pretty closely related, as are video games.


----------



## Gomez (Jul 8, 2005)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> That was bragging?
> 
> Quasqueton




I sure thought he was.


----------



## Gomez (Jul 8, 2005)

If all FLGS went out of business I think that the role-playing gaming hobby would take a serious hit and most likely have serious repercussions to the well being of gaming companies.


----------



## Kanegrundar (Jul 8, 2005)

fredramsey said:
			
		

> My FLGS is packed every weekend with Magic players and Pokemon. I'm certain that helps things out a lot.
> 
> As does the high price of GW stuff.



 I know my FLGS is full of CCG game players.  (Hurry up start of school!!!)  That really helps keep the business going.  I don't know that GW has much impact on my main FLGS, the minis games are dominated by D&D minis right now.  At the other FNSLGS I go to upon occasion, they used to make a lot selling GW, but GW changed their distribution practices, so they don't carry much at all nowadays.

Kane


----------



## Some guy from Ohio (Jul 8, 2005)

So what is being said here?  We should keep the small “mom and pop” store in business, be it a gaming store, book store, coffee shop, retail store, whatever?  Is this just out of spite towards the huge chain store that everybody hates, but everyone still frequents?  If there is a cheaper priced book at some giant store than give me the cheap book.  If you own a business, then you should know the business rules and that is how it works.  Business is not about counting on sympathy from your customer.


----------



## fredramsey (Jul 8, 2005)

Kanegrundar said:
			
		

> I don't know that GW has much impact on my main FLGS, the minis games are dominated by D&D minis right now.




Ok, it was a not-so-subtle dig on GW.   

But, it is BIG at my FLGS, and we have a master painter that displays his stuff in a glass case that is at eye level when you come in the front door. I'm sure that has helped.

I choose to shop there, but I'll be the first to admit I spend (and have it to spend) much more than a lot of people, especially those significantly younger than me.

And while the carpet could stand to be replaced, and some of the customers are a bit stereotypical, it does put the "F" in FLGS. And as many reviews I read on the 'net, it is still more satisfying to leaf physically through the book. And that will go away. No sales, no store.

Just like no job - no buying goods and services.


----------



## fredramsey (Jul 8, 2005)

Have at it. No one is telling you what to do.

I just don't think Wal-Mart is going to carry Burning Wheel, or CoC, for that matter.   



			
				Some guy from Ohio said:
			
		

> So what is being said here?  We should keep the small “mom and pop” store in business, be it a gaming store, book store, coffee shop, retail store, whatever?  Is this just out of spite towards the huge chain store that everybody hates, but everyone still frequents?  If there is a cheaper priced book at some giant store than give me the cheap book.  If you own a business, then you should know the business rules and that is how it works.  Business is not about counting on sympathy from your customer.


----------



## jgbrowning (Jul 8, 2005)

I've put a poll up on the Game Industry Network. There are over 100 store owners there and I'll see if any of them own the building their store is in.

joe b.


----------



## fredramsey (Jul 8, 2005)

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> I've put a poll up on the Game Industry Network. There are over 100 store owners there and I'll see if any of them own the building their store is in.
> 
> joe b.




A hundred. And those are all on a particular website.

Ok.


----------



## jgbrowning (Jul 8, 2005)

fredramsey said:
			
		

> A hundred. And those are all on a particular website.
> 
> Ok.




I'm not sure I understand your post.

joe b.


----------



## fredramsey (Jul 8, 2005)

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I understand your post.
> 
> joe b.




It means that because of those two very limiting factors, a negative will not be statistically significant. Which is fine, unless proving that no one owns their own building is the goal. It doesn't even really qualify to say it's rare, even. Not a big enough nor varied enough sample, that's all.

And if there is a positive, or even 50, that won't prove that it is common, or even a significant portion of stores. It will only prove that it _can_ happen.

 :\


----------



## Quasqueton (Jul 8, 2005)

> I sure thought he was.



I thought it was a poorly researched lie in an embarrassingly weak attempt to impress. If he doesn't understand the not-really-subtle difference in "owning" and *owning*, I doubt he has a home worth even 800K.

Quasqueton


----------



## jgbrowning (Jul 8, 2005)

fredramsey said:
			
		

> It means that because of those two very limiting factors, a negative will not be statistically significant. Which is fine, unless proving that no one owns their own building is the goal. It doesn't even really qualify to say it's rare, even. Not a big enough nor varied enough sample, that's all.
> 
> And if there is a positive, or even 50, that won't prove that it is common, or even a significant portion of stores. It will only prove that it _can_ happen.
> 
> :\




Why didn't you just say that then?  As far as I know, most business don't own the structure that houses their buiness. I don't expect FLGS to be any different. 

I'm asking the GIN because it's the best place to ask about FLGS in particular. Although it's not rigorous polling, I didn't think we needed rigorous polling to come to a consensus here. If we do, we should all just shut up because we ain't gonna get it.

So far it's 1 owner to 5 non-owners.

joe b.


----------



## Some guy from Ohio (Jul 8, 2005)

> I just don't think Wal-Mart is going to carry Burning Wheel, or CoC, for that matter.



I agree with that, but Amazon probably does (I have not looked).  I was trying to state that if the "little guy" cannot keep up and loses all of their customers, then that's the way business works.


----------



## billd91 (Jul 8, 2005)

Some guy from Ohio said:
			
		

> So what is being said here?  We should keep the small “mom and pop” store in business, be it a gaming store, book store, coffee shop, retail store, whatever?  Is this just out of spite towards the huge chain store that everybody hates, but everyone still frequents?  If there is a cheaper priced book at some giant store than give me the cheap book.  If you own a business, then you should know the business rules and that is how it works.  Business is not about counting on sympathy from your customer.





It's definitely not merely out of spite of the larger conglomerate big-box whatever stores. Some of us think there's some good in working against certain economic trends. And big box stores that drive under the mom and pop operation are shifting the economy away from small business ownership with local ties (whether the space is rented or not, the business is generally owned) in favor of retail wage earning within larger corporations. I'm not at all certain that's a good thing.


----------



## Jarrod (Jul 8, 2005)

I shouldn't... 

A quick note about rent. Everyone has monthly costs. Even if you flat-out own the space, there's utility taxes, property taxes, inventory taxes, salaries (about 2x what the person gets in cash after all of the federal and state stuff), your food...

Nobody can afford to lose money for long.


----------



## GMSkarka (Jul 8, 2005)

fredramsey said:
			
		

> It means that because of those two very limiting factors, a negative will not be statistically significant.




Do you realize how few dedicated stores there are in this industry?

According to the most recent figures, it's hovering somewhere less than 2000.  100 out of 2000 isn't "insignificant", especially given the fact those on the GIN are representatives of the top retailers in the country.


----------



## billd91 (Jul 8, 2005)

GMSkarka said:
			
		

> Do you realize how few dedicated stores there are in this industry?
> 
> According to the most recent figures, it's hovering somewhere less than 2000.  100 out of 2000 isn't "insignificant", especially given the fact those on the GIN are representatives of the top retailers in the country.




The sticky bit here is the lack of random sampling. With good random sampling, a survey population of 100 is much more powerful than without. And based on your description of the GIN as representing the top retailers, that suggests significant bias in the sample population.
It is, however, the best we can do given the circumstances.


----------



## fredramsey (Jul 8, 2005)

Some guy from Ohio said:
			
		

> I agree with that, but Amazon probably does (I have not looked).  I was trying to state that if the "little guy" cannot keep up and loses all of their customers, then that's the way business works.




Not the current version, but amazingly, the old version.

And so what if that is how "business works"? What's your motive here? Why, when I read your posts (and those of the other so-called "free-market" people, do I get the distinct impression that it pisses you off that people buy from their FLGS. Do you own stock in Wal-Mart? If so, I wouldn't worry about FLGS's putting the big W out of business. Why the hate?

Really, it's none of your business why I buy from one store or another. But from your rhetoric, it seems you'd like to find a way from preventing others from doing so. Why? Will gloating over the death of independent game stores thrill you that much?

I just don't get it.


----------



## Some guy from Ohio (Jul 8, 2005)

> And big box stores that drive under the mom and pop operation are shifting the economy away from small business ownership with local ties (whether the space is rented or not, the business is generally owned) in favor of retail wage earning within larger corporations. I'm not at all certain that's a good thing.



      But to curtail that trend, wouldn’t government have to get involved and say when and where and businessman (or woman for the politically correct) can do business.  Granted that is already done to a certain extent, but do you really want someone deciding where every business can locate.  If that were the case, most gaming stores probably would never had been established due to the stigma attached by some small minded people about RPGs.


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 8, 2005)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> I thought it was a poorly researched lie in an embarrassingly weak attempt to impress. If he doesn't understand the not-really-subtle difference in "owning" and *owning*, I doubt he has a home worth even 800K.



Frankly, I did too.  If you've got it together enough to own a home worth almost a million dollars--even if you've got very little equity in it--chances are you don't come across as an idiot on a message board.


----------



## Some guy from Ohio (Jul 8, 2005)

> And so what if that is how "business works"? What's your motive here? Why, when I read your posts (and those of the other so-called "free-market" people, do I get the distinct impression that it pisses you off that people buy from their FLGS. Do you own stock in Wal-Mart? If so, I wouldn't worry about FLGS's putting the big W out of business. Why the hate?




Wow. No hate intended.  I just think that if a business model works, the business suceeds, and if it doesn't, it dies.  If David kills Goliath or vice-versa, then so be it. The motive I have is just a free expresion of opinion without any venom directed towards an individual or group of people.  That is the purpose of these boards, is it not?


----------



## Gomez (Jul 8, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Frankly, I did too.  If you've got it together enough to own a home worth almost a million dollars--even if you've got very little equity in it--chances are you don't come across as an idiot on a message board.




 He must have used all the money he saved buying game books on Amazon to help buy the house.


----------



## Gomez (Jul 8, 2005)

Some guy from Ohio said:
			
		

> Wow. No hate intended.  I just think that if a business model works, the business suceeds, and if it doesn't, it dies.  If David kills Goliath or vice-versa, then so be it. The motive I have is just a free expresion of opinion without any venom directed towards an individual or group of people.  That is the purpose of these boards, is it not?




The thing is that the Goliath's aren't going to carry the same range of merchandise as the little Mom and Pop gaming stores. So someone bought Attack! at Toys-R-Us for $13.99 well it was that low because it wasn't selling and they needed to clear the space for something else. Your not going to be able to go and look at mini's at Walmart for your D&D game next Sunday. Personally, I like the idea of going to a FLGS store and hold a book in my hand, buy, it and good home with it. Not ordering it on Amazon and have to wait 2 weeks for it. But that's just me.


----------



## spectre72 (Jul 8, 2005)

GMSkarka said:
			
		

> Do you realize how few dedicated stores there are in this industry?
> 
> According to the most recent figures, it's hovering somewhere less than 2000.  100 out of 2000 isn't "insignificant", especially given the fact those on the GIN are representatives of the top retailers in the country.




And do you know why there are only 2000 stores?

Because if you want to make a small fortune in the gaming industry you have to start with a large one.

I have no problem with people spending there money however they want.

What I take offense with is people who get online and think I should support any business because it isn't online or run by a big corporation, and we should support it blindly.

I support businesses that deserve supporting due to their business philosophy, product selection, pricing, and customer service history.

I hear the arguments on this thread about the death of RPG's but we have had a consistent gaming community in Vermont for many years with almost no LGS presence.

Friends, word of mouth, conventions, school, relatives, ...etc. have all brought us into the hobby and we have always found books and supplies even without LGS.

I used to search book stores and order by mail to get my books.

Now I can order almost anything I want online with less spent in shipping than I would spend on gas to drive there and pick up anything at one of the stores which are 2+ hours away.

I would love to have a FLGS that was worth supporting but until that happens I will order online and be happy with it.

Support a store because it is worth supporting, not out of a sense it is good for the industry....


----------



## billd91 (Jul 8, 2005)

Some guy from Ohio said:
			
		

> But to curtail that trend, wouldn’t government have to get involved and say when and where and businessman (or woman for the politically correct) can do business.  Granted that is already done to a certain extent, but do you really want someone deciding where every business can locate.  If that were the case, most gaming stores probably would never had been established due to the stigma attached by some small minded people about RPGs.




But if we don't do things like this either via government (and I leave that up to local zoning as much as I can) or via our own collective action by choosing not to buy there, then we leave the control over our economic surroundings to increasingly conglomerated boards of directors and manager who may be increasingly remote from the repercussions of the decisions they make. That's just shifting out rulers from one group (elected government where everyone over 18, theoretically, has a vote) to another group (managers who may be more interested in the profits of shareholders than the public good).
While representative government may have its faults and be subject to graft and elitism, I have a hard time believing that a corporate board is any better, especially since government is usually easier for real grassroots groups to influence.


----------



## fredramsey (Jul 8, 2005)

My apologies. I used your post to rant on what I feel I have seen in others.

No insult intended.



			
				Some guy from Ohio said:
			
		

> Wow. No hate intended.  I just think that if a business model works, the business suceeds, and if it doesn't, it dies.  If David kills Goliath or vice-versa, then so be it. The motive I have is just a free expresion of opinion without any venom directed towards an individual or group of people.  That is the purpose of these boards, is it not?


----------



## Patryn of Elvenshae (Jul 8, 2005)

Personally, I really like the Shadowrun game setting, and recommend that everyone do all they can, in their power, to usher in a new era of sinister multinational corporations and women in sexy black leather outfits.


----------



## Janx (Jul 8, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> For every $10 you spend at both of my FLGS, they punch a hole in a card for you. Once you get 10 punches, you can get 20% off of your next purchase.




It's systems like that that show how clueless shop owners are.  The card systems end up being more work for the clerk, and likely to get lost.  Just offer a flat 10% discount for regular customers and be done with it.  Much simpler to deal with.

As for Attack! costing a shop $40, I doubt it.  The rule of halves applies here.  Generally, in EVERY industry, you can guess the  mark up of something, by dividing the price in half.  Ok, the jewelry and car industry maybe not.  But darn near everything else, including the RPG industry (go read monte's little rant about that, proving my point).

Net effect is, the LGS likely paid $20 and marked it up to $40.  Its the bigger chains that can afford to reduce their markup, hoping to make it up in volume.

Game shops are going the way of the railroad hobby shops.  They're dying out, because they can't compete with online resources.  Online shops can reach a larger target audience than a local shop.

The best thing for the LGS is to become an online shop as well.  They can then e-bay goods that don't move as fast (used games are excellent for this).

Another problem most shops have is that they over-order on a regular basis.  I used to demo for WizKids games, and I was amazed at how many shops I'd find with TONS of older expansions.  Worse, was the slow shop that waited 3 months to order a new expansion.  In most industries, the first 3 months is where the majority of the sales will be made.

To compound the error, many of these shops refused to have sales and liquidate their mistake.  They retained the collector mentality that this stuff would become rare and worth more to customers.  And so the product sat on the shelves, taking up space from other newer releases.

I don't want to see game shops die.  But I can see why they die, and unless they change their ways, they will die, regardless of what you or I do about it.


----------



## reveal (Jul 8, 2005)

Janx said:
			
		

> It's systems like that that show how clueless shop owners are.  The card systems end up being more work for the clerk, and likely to get lost.  Just offer a flat 10% discount for regular customers and be done with it.  Much simpler to deal with.




Yes, how stupid of them.  Now I can never go back because of their inefficiencies. :\


----------



## KaosDevice (Jul 8, 2005)

I'm lucky my LGS is pretty decent with a good staff and scaling discount cards. They sell CCG, minis and comics though so I think the diversification helps a lot. The game room could use some cleaning but otherwise its' not that bad. They have an order program that is decent so when I have the extra cash I try to spend it there. 

The main reason is I like to support locally owned buisnesses. I like to try and keep my money in the local community, but hey, that might just be me. Also, it seems to me that it might be somewhat limiting in the diversity of RPGs by getting rid of the LGS'. I would think (and I could be wrong) that the mid-level producers (which have been mentioned before) just wouldn't have as much drive to create new content if the only market was PDF buyers, due to prohibitive costs of smaller scale pressing. 

I'll buy stuff on line, but if I can I try to keep it local and keep some of those smaller scale guys producing quality stuff alive if I can.


----------



## jokamachi (Jul 8, 2005)

edit


----------



## billd91 (Jul 8, 2005)

Janx said:
			
		

> It's systems like that that show how clueless shop owners are.  The card systems end up being more work for the clerk, and likely to get lost.  Just offer a flat 10% discount for regular customers and be done with it.  Much simpler to deal with.




Your analysis is flawed in one aspect. The tendency of cards to get lost is a benefit to the FLGS's bottom line. Customers lose track of their cards and blame themselves for their own mistake. So the FLGS gets to look good by having the regular customer promotion without having to make good on it as often as giving 10% every time.


----------



## GMSkarka (Jul 8, 2005)

spectre72 said:
			
		

> And do you know why there are only 2000 stores?
> 
> Because if you want to make a small fortune in the gaming industry you have to start with a large one.
> 
> ...




...um....

That's nice.

Unfortunately, it has nothing to do with my post (which was addressing someone else's comment about the GIN), so I'm not entirely sure why you're posting your rant in response to me.....


----------



## fredramsey (Jul 8, 2005)

billd91 said:
			
		

> Your analysis is flawed in one aspect. The tendency of cards to get lost is a benefit to the FLGS's bottom line. Customers lose track of their cards and blame themselves for their own mistake. So the FLGS gets to look good by having the regular customer promotion without having to make good on it as often as giving 10% every time.




Watch out with that logic, there, you might hurt someone


----------



## spectre72 (Jul 8, 2005)

GMSkarka said:
			
		

> ...um....
> 
> That's nice.
> 
> Unfortunately, it has nothing to do with my post (which was addressing someone else's comment about the GIN), so I'm not entirely sure why you're posting your rant in response to me.....




My rant as you call it is targeted at the thread in general but your point about 2000 stores triggered it   

Making money and keeping a store open is a difficult task, especially if you are not carefull and creative.

There are very few stores because after a short period of losing money most businesses have to close unless they have considerable money to begin with.

I always get sucked into these arguments (something to do with my MBA training and years of working retail) and nothing ever get accomplished.

One side wants to save money, and the other the industry.

I fall somewhere in the middle....

So if you thought my "Rant" was aimed at you it wasn't, but I hate the general attitude about supporting businesses that don't always deserve our support.

If you thought I was ranting at you I am sorry


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## jgbrowning (Jul 8, 2005)

Something that many people don't often realize is that a simple 10% discount to a FLGS owner is a much bigger hit to the profit margin than one would expect.

For example: The owner buys at say 60% of MSRP and uses around 10-20% of the remaining 40% MSRP margin in operating expenses (rent, wages, shipping, utilities, taxes, etc) leaving only a true profit margin of 20%-30%.

To many FLGS, a 10% MSRP reduction can be anywhere from a 50% to a 33% reduction in profit. This can put them in a situation where it's simply better business to never discount or they'll end up moving 33%-50% more product with no increase in profit while bearing the burdon of additional risk in buying practices.

joe b.

EDIT: And for those who care —out of 12 retailers, 2 own their own building while 10 do not.


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## Jim Hague (Jul 8, 2005)

Oryan77 said:
			
		

> It's easy for people with money to blow on gaming books/cards/minis to critisize others for buying at Toys-R-Us or Amazon instead of a FLGS. It's hard to support a FLGS when you don't even make enough money to buy your own house and you still have to pay rent and live with roommates.
> 
> I don't kid myself...a FLGS owner doesn't care about our financial situation so why should I care about theirs; he's looking out for him & his store. I don't blame him, but it's not cool for people to critisize others for looking out for themselves too. I can't make an effort to support a guy who will give a child $3 for his collectible and then resell it in his shop for $15-$20.
> 
> ...




See, this is why I'm glad our FLGS - Dragon's Lair, in Austin and Round Rock - does everything _right_.  Don't care about your income?  *bzzt* The Lair's owner - not a salesman, but the owner - offered me a tidy sum for some out-of-print games when I desperately needed the cash for things like bills and food.  Won't special order or stock products aside from limited game companies?  *bzzt!*  The Lair stocks everything under the sun...and f they don't have it, they'll special order it and call you when it comes in.

I'm just amazed at the vitriol that gets slung at game stores - because the one near me is near perfect.  Lots of game space, friendly staff, clean, knowledgeable about everything from anime to toys to traditional board games to comics to RPGs.  They have a subscription service.  They make recommedations, they recognize each and every one of their customers (hundreds of faces, at least).  That a game store _wouldn't_ do this boggles my mind.  For their efforts, the Lair's got 4 locations here in Texas, and shows no signs of stopping.

You want to know why I'll pay cover for my gamebooks?  _That's_ why.  I don't get that kind of service over the 'Net, nor can I browse new materials over it.  So my FLGS gets my meager dollars.


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## KaosDevice (Jul 8, 2005)

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> Something that many people don't often realize is that a simple 10% discount to a FLGS owner is a much bigger hit to the profit margin than one would expect.





Makes sense. My LGS has a percentage amount off comics for subscribers but other products they have the whole punch card thing , where you can get $x for your card off what ever with subsequent cards being worth more $x. That might be a little kinder on the stores then a flat %.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 9, 2005)

So much to respond to...



> Dannyalcatraz
> Heck, when I started gaming, (in Denver) I had to go into a Hobby Shop (you know...trains, planes, slot cars).
> 
> MoogleEmpMog
> I'm surprised you had trouble finding a game store in Denver! How long ago was this?




1977.

Back then, to get to a game store, we kids had to hypnotize our parents to drive across town in the daily blizzard, up into the Rockies past the dreaded Flying SpiderGators to get to a game store.

...and we LIKED it that way!



> My FLGS is packed every weekend with Magic players and Pokemon. I'm certain that helps things out a lot




Actually, yes.  First, it is a product that sells- that pays bills.  There are stores where CCG's account for 60%+ of annual gross income.  Second, the longer a person stays in the store, the more they tend to buy.  (Read _Why We Buy_, by Paco Underhill.)



> As does the high price of GW stuff.




GW, at least in Dallas/Fort Worth, cut its own throat.  They raised prices to LGS's, then opened a store in the less-than conveniently located Grapevine Mills Mall that undercut those prices.  Many LGS's in the region responded by discounting GW and ceasing re-orders.  That GW store is now gone, and GW product is slowly filtering back into the other LGS's.



> I just don't think Wal-Mart is going to carry Burning Wheel, or CoC, for that matter.




It could be worse than that.  Wal-Mart and other discounters often invoke "morality clauses" on products they sell (take a look at their music section- you'll find a lot of edited CDs and others they simply won't sell).  As a result, if Wal-Mart or its counterpart drives your LGS out of business, you might not have a choice in whether to shop online.  And how many big box stores sell game support products (minis, paints, mats, RPG-specific software)?

And if the big boys are the ONLY players in the game (and here I include the online stores like Amazon), you may find that the only way to find unedited gaming material is to purchase directly from the publishers and manufacturers.

I don't remember who said it, but it is unlikely that game companies get paid the same amount of money per unit sold regardless of retailer.  Simply put, the big guys can negotiate prices that little guys can't.

Recently, a news expose report revealed that Wal-Mart paid a particular 3rd world clothing manufacturer a price of about 5¢ above costs.  In order to maintain compliance with Western workplace rules, the manufacturer asked for a 1¢/unit increase from Wal-Mart...and was rewarded with a 2¢/unit _decrease_.

Furthermore, some sales contracts (especially with the big retailers) are structured so that how much manufacturers get paid depends on what % of full price the product sells for or through which distribution channel the product is sold (online vs in-store).  So, if the big store discounts the RPG product to predatory levels (let's say, 20% below their cost) while cross-subsidizing it with slightly increased prices on their tires, the retailer will still keep its full profit margin, but the RPG's producer may get only 70-80% of their costs.  The retailer loses NOTHING while the RPG producer gets exposure around the world...and loses money per unit.  For the short run, that's OK- that can come out of the advertising budget- _but long run..._



> See, this is why I'm glad our FLGS - Dragon's Lair, in Austin and Round Rock - does everything right.




Dragon's Lair was a personal favorite of mine when I was in Austin- a truly _*great*_ shop.  And, while I'm not positive, despite its being in a converted house (like all the other businesses in the area), I doubt that the owner _actually owns_ it.


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## woodelf (Jul 9, 2005)

amazingshafeman said:
			
		

> Does anyone else think the coffee at B&N (and Starbucks in general) tastes burned? I remember as a teen, my parents sent coffee back if it tasted like that in a truckstop. Now you add some floofy steamed milk and it costs four times more...




Three anecdotal data points:
Everyone i know, personally, who is a coffee drinker thinks that Starbucks is the worst coffeeshop coffee in town. (Though they disagree mightily on what is the best.)
I had some friends who were from Seattle, right around the time that Starbucks was really making a national splash. They commented on the irony of it being known as "quality NW coffee" in the rest of the country, because back home (i.e., Seattle), it was considered the worst of the coffee shops.
Near campus, the Starbucks seems to be patronized exclusively by East-Coasters/New-Englanders, while the locals go to the local places, predominantly. I always assumed, in concert with the above points, that this was because the East-Coasters were going somewhere familiar, rather than shopping around to see if one of the unfamiliar local places was better.


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## farscapesg1 (Jul 9, 2005)

Services and friendliness are nice, but they don't make up for all the price differences though.

I'm not familiar enough with the whole gaming/hobby shop business so I have to make some comparisons to something that I am familiar with, computers   

If you look at computer shops, you would think that there are a lot of them, but pay attention to how many of them come and go.  With big chain stores like Best Buy and Circuit City, and the companies selling directly like Dell, it is harder and harder to run a computer shop.  I know several of the local computer shop owners and in fact wanted to start one myself until they showed me the error of my ways.  The majority of their income comes from upgrade and repair services, but these have been dropping off drastically thanks to Best Buy's _ Geek Squad _ and similar big chain support.  The general population doesn't understand that their Dell or Compaq system has an inferior video card, are usually sold with a very minimum amount of memory, and usually have other sub-standard components.  Of course, you tell them and the only thing they care is that they got the computer for $300 after rebates  :\  There is no way that a "mom and pop" shop can make a profit off of a $300 computer.

I guess what I am trying to say is that while I love a good LGS (if you can find one), until the general population stop buying from large retailers (and are willing to pay more to do that), Amazon, B&N, Walmart, etc. will recieve more of the business and the LGS will go the way of the neighborhood bookstore (one of the things I sorely miss from my childhood years).


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## scourger (Jul 9, 2005)

I think I'll keep bugging my FLGS for _Tour of Darkness_ rather than ordering it online as I could have for the past 6 weeks.


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## Prince of Happiness (Jul 9, 2005)

Sometimes I wonder if Seattle does indeed exist in another universe. It's funny, because Seattle is a retail environment that has been quite conducive to the small mom/pop type shop, if they do offer excellent service and niche product...and not only that, thrive and expand (this is especially true in the independent music stores in the area) to become small chains in their own right. Yeah, we have a Starbucks on every block (sometimes two or three downtown), but we also have a butt-load of smaller places. We have Barnes & Noble and Borders and other "big box" stores, but there's still the small shops around as well. I don't mind that it works out that way, and I'm really fine with it. It's like the 3E mantra "options, not restrictions."

While I haven't found a gaming store that's been anywhere near the pristine, holy experience that other posters have written about. To that end I've ended up becoming rather pragmatic about where I spend my gaming dollars if one place has a book I happen to be at, fine I'll get it there. If it's cheaper online and I can wait, I'll order it online. If I need some type of accessory (or a "German" boardgame) I usually hit up Gary's Games because they carry that kind of stuff and have a pretty good used section. On the other hand, it reeks to the Heavens and the Hells.

Again, if there is that good combination of knowledge, know-how, selection, infrastructure (game rooms, parking), hygiene and location it would do alright. Hell, with "industry names" in the area you could even have pretty regular events ("Hey kids! Get your Monster Manual signed by such-and-such!" or "See art from such-and-such artist/illustrator and buy prints or originals!" or "Whine to Erik Mona about why stat block on p.xx in Dungeon 120 is wrong! Today! In-store!" "Orc and Pie Night!")*. Why a gaming store in this area hasn't quite grasped that yet, I dunno.

Soooooo nope, no dedicated, hard-core loyalty from me. Haven't had the incentive to do so.

*Again with the local indie record shops: Recording artists do free in-store shows All. The. F'n. Time.


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## Nellisir (Jul 9, 2005)

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> See, this is why I'm glad our FLGS - Dragon's Lair, in Austin and Round Rock - does everything _right_. Don't care about your income? *bzzt* The Lair's owner - not a salesman, but the owner - offered me a tidy sum for some out-of-print games when I desperately needed the cash for things like bills and food. Won't special order or stock products aside from limited game companies? *bzzt!* The Lair stocks everything under the sun...and f they don't have it, they'll special order it and call you when it comes in.
> 
> I'm just amazed at the vitriol that gets slung at game stores - because the one near me is near perfect. Lots of game space, friendly staff, clean, knowledgeable about everything from anime to toys to traditional board games to comics to RPGs. They have a subscription service. They make recommedations, they recognize each and every one of their customers (hundreds of faces, at least). That a game store _wouldn't_ do this boggles my mind..




See, I know a gaming store like that...but it's not my FLGS.  My FLGS only orders stuff when the total order (mine & others non-comic material) is over $400, because that's when her free shipping kicks in.  So I've had to wait over a month (after it was released and available at Borders down the street) for a product.  Discount?  Uh-uh.  The OTHER (not local) GS gives me 30% off pre-paid preorders for being a "member" (which is free), 25% or 20% off of preorders, and 10% or so off of whatever I feel like.  There's a third store that'll give me $10 in merchandise after I buy $100 in merchandise, but I have to pay $20 or so a year for the privilege.

I buy comics from my FLGS, but gaming material?  No way.


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## Some guy from Ohio (Jul 9, 2005)

> My apologies. I used your post to rant on what I feel I have seen in others.



    No fault, no foul.... but thanks anyway.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 9, 2005)

Oh yeah...forgot to talk about the discount programs.

Discount programs, especially coupons and punch-cards variants, are better for retaliler than regular discount programs because there is an element of variability of usage introduced.

Example: a flat 10% discount to favorite customers draws those customers back, and discounts the usual sales tax and cuts into profits a little bit...but it gets covered by increased sales volume.  The gamer saves $10 per $100 spent.

A coupon or punch-card program does the same thing almost as well (statisically) as a 10% discount in drawing return customers.  However, instead of costing 10% each sale, it only costs that 10% _when it gets used_, and people will forget their coupons or punch cards a certain % of the time.  Instead of saving $10 per 100 spent, he may spend $150 before saving his $10.  The stated level of the discount differs from the _effective_ level of discount...for a statistically insignificant loss in volume of sales (a fraction of a percent, on average).

Punch card programs that don't work are usually run poorly- customers get multiple punches for the same purchase (sometimes because a pal in the store hooks 'em up- which is embezzlement), or the card isn't confiscated when the discount is earned...and in some cases, the punches get counterfieted.


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## jgbrowning (Jul 9, 2005)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> Oh yeah...forgot to talk about the discount programs.
> 
> Discount programs, especially coupons and punch-cards variants, are better for retaliler than regular discount programs because there is an element of variability of usage introduced.
> 
> Example: a flat 10% discount to favorite customers draws those customers back, and discounts the usual sales tax and cuts into profits a little bit...but it gets covered by increased sales volume.  The gamer saves $10 per $100 spent.




This was the point I was trying to make earlier. Sales volume may have to (worse case) increase by 1/2 under a 10% discount program in order to just match normal sales at non-discount prices. Best case, a retailer has to sell someone 1/3 more product at 10% discount to equal a normal sale at non-discount prices. You have to look at the profit margin %s not the straight MSRP %s.

A 10% discount MSRP can easily translate into profits being reduced by 33% for a retailer.

To use your $10 every $100. The reailer is (at best) making $30 profit (after expenses) per every $100 MSPR sold. By giving back $10 to the consumer, the retailer has just lost 33% of their profit and would have to sell (at normal prices) an additional $33 MSRP to make up for the profit lost to discounting. Asking for a 10% discount is often just like asking the FLGS owner to make 1/3 less money. In industries with markups much higher, like 100-500%, retailers can afford to discount heavier, since their profit margins are not nearly as tight as FLGS's. Unfortunately, gaming isn't a such a business.

joe b.

EDIT: as of 37 FLGS owners, 5 own their own store, while 32 are renting.


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## Waldorf (Jul 9, 2005)

I'm new to the boards but I wanted to comment on this thread since it looked particularly inviting; here's hoping that I don't get flamed to high heaven.

I'm something of an old-school gamer, you might say, but I've never known a business that wasn't capable of passing on some kind of discount to its customers, even a minimal discount. The explanations I'm reading, however, make one feel that gaming stores are somehow an the exception to the norm. I find that hard to believe, no matter how much math people are willing to commit to their posts. Frankly, I don't think people are asking for much when it comes to a discount. If 10% is unreasonable, then make it 7%, or even 5%, or even 3% off. I think what people want to see is some kind of effort to show that gaming stores care about their customers.

Politeness is good. Customer service is good. A lot of stores suck in those areas, but I think it all comes down to money in the end (at least for those short of coin), and if gaming stores want to be competitive, then they should find a way to compete. I hate to use a darwinian analogy, but that's always been the nature of business, mega-stores or not.

The gaming store nearest me (self-owned and operated) is more of a hang out than a hard core business. They make most of their money in miniatures, I think, but they also carry books, of which they sell a fair number. Do I buy the books? No, I can't say that I do. I don't make that much to begin with, but I do occasionally buy a back issue of dungeon from them, and that's about it, really.

My real shopping happens online, whether it's eBay or Amazon. I would happily give my money to the FLGS if they could match those prices, but were I to do so at current prices, then that means one less book I could have purchased from Amazon.

Wizards piublishes a lot of expensive hardcover books these days. I'm trying to keep up. I can't do it at a FLGS.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 9, 2005)

The 50% markup rule doesn't apply in competitive fields of business.  To have a 50% markup, you have to have significant bargaining power combined with a lack of reasonable substitutes.  The more expensive the product, the more a potential customer will balk by 1) not purchasing, 2) buying a substitute, 3) invest time in doing market research to find the same product for less...and this is only compounded by the internet.

Exceptions to that include goods for which there is no substitute- custom- made/rare goods or necessities.

The game store industry is much more competitive, especially in the internet age.

The nature of the product it sells is:

Appeals to a small market:  Gamers are a small % of the total population, probably ≤ 1%.  For a city the size of Dallas, that's about 11,800 gamers.  I'd guess that supports 2-3 dedicated game shops.  Add another 20000 for Fort Worth and all the suburbs.  Lone Star Comics has 6 locations, and is as much a comic book store as games, Gen X and Game Chest have 1 apiece- there may be others that I don't know about.  Borders and B&N blanket this area, and places like Target, Wal-Mart and K-Mart are making inroads into selling RPG/CCGs- and that doesn't include the online retailers and used book stores.  A LGS in the Dallas/FW area probably has less than 1000 regular customers.

Many substitute products in the market: if you don't like the price of D&D books, there's lots of other fantasy games out there to try...  Add to that Music, Sports, regular entertainment reading, TV, video games, porn, online MMRPGs, etc, and you have something that has a LOT of competition.  From personal experience, I'd guess that the average gamer has AT LEAST 2 of the things I listed as competitors for his time and money, and probably some I didn't list.

Its a "luxury item" (entertainment), so it has low price elasticity.  If the price is too high, sales drop off dramatically, and no retailer has a monopoly on selling the product.  However, the largest retailers have significant market power and can dictate contractual terms to their suppliers (read discounted price to acquire product) and can cross-subsidize (lower price to consumer).  Price differentials you percieve from location to location probably have more to do with discounts and cross subsidy than with markups.

As for sales staff...

I just concluded a study that included an interview with a small sole proprietorship (not a game store).  He had hired people within the hobby his store serviced as salesmen.  He found over 20 years that he was better off with people who had people skills and knew how to sell- he could always train them to sell _his_ product- as opposed to fellow hobbyists.

Compare to a typical game store- usually staffed by hobbyists under 20, with little or no sales experience.  And do we REALLY need to discuss the stereotypical gamer's people skills?

Sales staff- knowledgeable, personable, and polite- are ANY business' #1 asset after having a great product.


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## Dinkeldog (Jul 9, 2005)

scourger said:
			
		

> I think I'll keep bugging my FLGS for _Tour of Darkness_ rather than ordering it online as I could have for the past 6 weeks.




If I want something, my FLGS will order it for me.  

Of course, for me, the reason you don't visit your FLGS is because there's no F.  If Amazon.com is more personable, then any LGS needs to reconsider its customer service.


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## woodelf (Jul 9, 2005)

Some guy from Ohio said:
			
		

> Wow. No hate intended. I just think that if a business model works, the business suceeds, and if it doesn't, it dies. If David kills Goliath or vice-versa, then so be it.




And if we had a true free market, that'd probably be true. We don't. Too many of the large players in the market are involved in controlling the information that everyone has about the market. As a result, big companies and little businesses don't play by the same rules--much moreso than just things like economies of scale would account for.


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## Some guy from Ohio (Jul 9, 2005)

> I'm new to the boards but I wanted to comment on this thread since it looked particularly inviting; here's hoping that I don't get flamed to high heaven.



    Welcome aboard Waldorf. I've been here for years (I know my post count does not reflect that, but I am rarely moved to speak), and I think you will find it a pretty friendly and mostly non-flamer board.


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## Felon (Jul 9, 2005)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> The game store industry is much more competitive, especially in the internet age.




Except in the Atlanta area. Even though it's a major city, there isn't a single well-run gaming store that actually gives a damn about whether or not I shop there...to the extent that I'm almost puzzled by the notion that I should feel guilty about not patronizing them.


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## billd91 (Jul 9, 2005)

Some guy from Ohio said:
			
		

> Welcome aboard Waldorf. I've been here for years (I know my post count does not reflect that, but I am rarely moved to speak), and I think you will find it a pretty friendly and mostly non-flamer board.




This is true. Clearly I disagree with Some guy from Ohio on some economic issues around the FLGS, yet neither of us has needed to resort to asbestos BVDs. And I value that. The darn things chafe.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 9, 2005)

I'm not surprised about Atlanta.

Our hobby doesn't exactly attract a huge minority audience, and Atlanta is one of America's "blackest" cities, by percentage of population.  New Orleans, my old hometown, is another one like that.


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## Paradigm (Jul 9, 2005)

Toys R Us will not let you game in their store.
Walmart will not attend the GAMA Trade Show and come back with information about the rest of the year's releases.
Amazon will not teach you how to play a game you might like, or help you find other gamers.
Online stores don't let you look in the book before you buy it. They don't have a rack of miniatures available so you can get just the right figure for your character.

If a product is $49.99 SRP, your FLGS can get it in for $25.00 - $26.50, and they need to make that margin to stay open, and provide you with the services that you can get from a FLGS and not a mass-market or electronic outlet. Walmart doesn't care if they make a tiny margin, because their entire business model is based upon getting you to come in to buy everything at a low price.


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## bolen (Jul 9, 2005)

Janx said:
			
		

> It's systems like that that show how clueless shop owners are.  The card systems end up being more work for the clerk, and likely to get lost.  Just offer a flat 10% discount for regular customers and be done with it.  Much simpler to deal with.




How do you define a regular customer. and I think loosing the card is something they bank on.


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## Glyfair (Jul 9, 2005)

Paradigm said:
			
		

> If a product is $49.99 SRP, your FLGS can get it in for $25.00 - $26.50, and they need to make that margin to stay open, and provide you with the services that you can get from a FLGS and not a mass-market or electronic outlet.




One thing I've noticed with a lot of people who complain about hobby store prices is they don't look at the whole picture (note, I'm not talking about the people who say they are buying only what saves them money, just those who complain about the prices - and not even all of them).

Tell them that a $20 product had a $10 price from the distributor and they want to know why the store isn't selling it to them cheaper.  They believe that $10 is too much "profit" for the store.  They don't realize that out of that $10 the store has to pay for power, rent, employees wages, insurance, etc.  That $10- isn't "profit."

Also, some of the same people I've heard having long discussion about this will complain about the customer service.  They wouldn't support increasing wages to get better customer service, because that would increase the price and that's not acceptable to them.  They'll complain about customer service and feel that you should get the same level of customer service from someone making minimum wage and someone being paid above minimum wage.  That people who have very good customer service skills generally go for higher paying jobs doesn't cross their mind.

This certainly isn't everyone and I really can't speak to the store's practices, since the conversations I've heard were about stores I hadn't dealt with.  However, I've heard several rants that went in that direction.


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Jul 9, 2005)

Paradigm said:
			
		

> Toys R Us will not let you game in their store.



Don't want to.  And even if I did, I couldn't stand all the screaming and obnoxious CCGs and mini players.



> Walmart will not attend the GAMA Trade Show and come back with information about the rest of the year's releases.



Don't need them to.  I'll get far better information here.



> Amazon will not teach you how to play a game you might like, or help you find other gamers.



Gamedays, websites, and others.  I've never gamed with someone I didn't know outside of some sort of pre-existing social relationship, and really don't want to.  If stores ran previews of new games, that would be cool, but that's been pretty rare.



> Online stores don't let you look in the book before you buy it. They don't have a rack of miniatures available so you can get just the right figure for your character.




Neither does the store near me, or any of the other ones that insist on shrink-wrapping, thus negating one of the few real advantages they might have.  However, even if I could look through a book, it would have to be one that they stock.  As for mini's, it's a monumental pain in the ass to look through hundreds of minis in their little packages skewered onto racks.  I'll look on-line, thanks, where I can search by type, across brands, etc.


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## woodelf (Jul 9, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> Shrug. Whaddever. If it's cheaper, that's where I'm going. I'll save a noble attitude for noble causes.




How about self-interest? Is that sufficiently ignoble of a cause to apply to everyday luxury purchases?

By buying at the cheapest price possible, you're sending the message that the goods are only worth whatever that price is. IOW, you're driving the market price of the goods down, in the long run. Given the wages in the RPG industry, it is safe to say that RPG books are already priced at or below the lowest price that can support the producers. So if prices were to be driven down, across the board (and if the discounters manage to drive the small stores out of business, that will be the effective result), then the discounters would want to lower prices even further to compete with the new baseline, which would start to squeeze the producers more. Meaning ever more of the RPG producers leave the field for better wages (such as videogames, or novels, or even newspaper journalism)--as have the best of the previous generation of game designers, already. Prices are already too low in the RPG market, so by buying exclusively, or even regularly, at discounted prices, you are helping to kill the RPG industry. 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that, since you buy enough RPG books that discounting matters [if you only bought one D&D3E PH, and never another RPG book your entire life, the difference between $30 and $20 would matter a lot less], you'd prefer RPG books to be available for sale.

Also, while it is true that the RPG industry will never truly die, at least in our lifetimes, it could become a true cottage industry. IOW, buying at steep discount now could lead to much higher prices in the future.  To get an idea of what i mean, compare WotC or WWGS prices to what the current indie-press folks are charging (since they're already operating basically like a cottage industry): 
WotC/WWGS: ~$35 for hardcover, full-color, letter-size, 300pp
D20 System publisher: ~$35 for hardcover, B&W, letter-size, 250pp
indie-press: ~$25 for softcover, B&W, digest-size, 150pp

You don't like the first two prices, how're you gonna feel when they all look like the last? Or, extrapolating, when the MSRP for a hardcover, full-color, letter-size, 300pp RPG book is more like $60 or $70? (and that's in current dollars, not adjusting for inflation.)

Also on the self-interest front: there is a link between prices of goods and wages.  And i don't just mean the wages of the people who produced those goods, but the wages of everyone. By always buying at the lowest price possible, you are contributing to keeping wages--including your own--low.


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## woodelf (Jul 9, 2005)

Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> I exclusively buy either online (if I can be patient) or in a major chain store (Borders, for example) if I'm feeling impatient. The price differential between those outlets and a so-called FLGS is simply too great for me to patronize the latter.



What sorts of discounts are you finding? IME, i can reliably save ~10%, maybe 15%, by buying online. That's when i want to buy what i want to buy, and when i want to buy it. If i'm willing to just buy whatever they feel like offering on clearance special and the like, or only what shows up on Overstock.com, then i can probably get 50% off--but there's a really good chance that what i want won't be available that way. Frex, i'd been watching online for a discounted copy of The Riddle of Steel for nearly 2 years, with no success (at _any_ level of discount) before i happened to stumble onto a used copy (in meatspace).

IMHO--and i'm fully aware that this doesn't necessarily have any bearing for anyone who isn't me--15% isn't worth the hassle or consequences. Honestly, if it's worth 85% of MSRP, it's probably worth 100% of MSRP--rarely does the personal value threshhold fall in such a narrow margin. I save discount purchases for 50% off, or better--for those things that i simply think aren't worth the asking price (not because of poor quality, or because i'm short of money, but because they are designed for a different consumer). IOW, precisely the segment of the RPG market that, if it were to disappear completely, i wouldn't be terribly disappointed. If i really like it, i consider it the ethical thing to reward the creators appropriately--and they've told me what they think is appropriate. I also consider it the selfish thing to reward them as htey've requested, so that they stay in business and make more cool stuff that i want.



> So does this make me a bad person? I don't feel bad. I agree with *hexgrid* -- if the small business game-store owners want to survive in this day and age of online retailing and Wal-Mart, then they need to find other ways to compete. Because they cannot compete on price.




I can't speak to any particular store you've been in, but those i've been in *have* found a way to compete: browsing, knowledgeable staff, gamer connections, gaming space.

oh, and on wages, working conditions, community impact, and political behavior. Call me nuts, but i consider not giving my money to companies that don't do business in ways i like an important goal. And there are things other than high price that constitute "doing business in ways i don't like".


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## woodelf (Jul 9, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> Why don't FLGS owners work together to pool their buying power and get these kinds of deals, and then sell at reduced prices to more favorably compete with the online and non-niche marketers?
> 
> If 1000 FLGS each ordered 20 units, then they, too, could sell at lower prices, and combined with the insane levels of customer loyalty that they routinely receive, they should be able to knock off the Big Corporate competetion.
> 
> Ozmar the Amateur Economist




They already do. It's call distributors. Problem is, while you can pool the buying power to get something from the manufacturer, you still have the duplicated costs of physically getting it to the 1000 FLGSs, and staffing the 1000 FLGSs, and paying the heating and electricity for 1000 FLGSs, and so on. Economies of scale are real, and a pooling can only overcome those that the pool specifically addresses. Now, if those 1000 FLGSs all pooled their resources to have 50, larger, locations, and a combined staff pool, and so on, then we'd really see a change. But i'm guessing the commute, for both the staff and the customers, would kill that idea.


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## woodelf (Jul 9, 2005)

Oryan77 said:
			
		

> It's easy for people with money to blow on gaming books/cards/minis to critisize others for buying at Toys-R-Us or Amazon instead of a FLGS. It's hard to support a FLGS when you don't even make enough money to buy your own house and you still have to pay rent and live with roommates.




Part of why you can't afford a house is due to depressed wages. Part of why wages are depressed is due to a consumer mentality of "as cheap as is possible, regardless of the consequences", which forces production and service costs down. The union ideal of banding together to help everyone applies accross disciplines, too--it's basically where the idea of minimum wage came from. Or, to put it another way: if you're not willing to pay the higher price required to support higher wages in industries you get goods or services from, why should anyone else be willing to support you getting higher wages for your goods or services?


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## woodelf (Jul 9, 2005)

Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> But let's say I want to buy the DMG II, and the small store was selling it at MSRP ($39.95) while Walmart.com had it for 15% less. What incentive could the small store offer me that is worth $6? And just appealing to my love of D&D is not enough.




Really? You mean the threat of no more new D&D products, or significantly-higher-priced D&D products, isn't enough incentive to pay that extra $6? Or do you mean something else by "love of D&D"?

But then, i guess i've never been a comparison shopper. And, no, it's not because i'm rolling in the dough--i've only gotten into 5 digits of income 3 years in my entire life. I go to a store that i trust and think does a good job and therefore i want to continue to exist, and buy whatever it is if it's affordable, and don't if it isn't. The fact that there might be a place that has it cheaper just doesn't enter into the equation, so long as the price i find it for is reasonable (by my standards). And if it isn't to be found for a price i consider reasonable, and it's not food, etc., i do without, or wait until i have more money. Sure, i compare for big purchases, but, mostly, i decide what something is worth to me, and shop until i find something beneath that threshhold. Then i stop, because it's as cheap or cheaper than the value i put on the good, so there's no need to find it even cheaper.



			
				GMSkarka said:
			
		

> Most gamers on this board are probably too young to remember when Video Stores used to be all small-business Mom & Pop operations. Now, it's all UberMegaBusterWood franchise stores, with the same selection everywhere you go.




 Doing my part to stop that trend. My money doesn't go to Blockbuster or Hollywood--i'll do without before i'll rent a video there. Of course, the fact that i (1) am not much of a video renter (probably <1/mo, over the long haul) and (2) live in a city with at least 3 thriving independent video stores, all of which have _far_ better selection than any chain store i've ever been in, probably helps with that.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jul 9, 2005)

woodelf said:
			
		

> I can't speak to any particular store you've been in, but those i've been in *have* found a way to compete: browsing, knowledgeable staff, gamer connections, gaming space.



I've seen some also get into area that are compatible with the gamer crowd. Selling genre DVDs (hong kong action, anime, sci-fi, fantasy, sci-fi TV showson DVD), Manga, graphic novels, comics, game fiction, board games, ... They also sell a wide selection of snack food back in the gamer table section at barely higher than a convenience store's prices. Gamers and snack food go together like... well, you know!

My FLGS put up a shelf devoted used pulp-era dime-store books. i.e. Tarzan, John Carter, Pellucidar, etc. They sold through them pronto.

If gamers talk about it at their tables, stocking it could be worth looking into.


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## Prince of Happiness (Jul 9, 2005)

I had a question about who handles the distro for gaming books? Is Diamond the 800lb. gorilla on this block as well? Could part of the pricing/availability issue be solved by setting up a more gaming specific independent distributor? Or no?


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## Glyfair (Jul 10, 2005)

Prince of Happiness said:
			
		

> I had a question about who handles the distro for gaming books? Is Diamond the 800lb. gorilla on this block as well? Could part of the pricing/availability issue be solved by setting up a more gaming specific independent distributor? Or no?




IIRC, Alliance is the major distributor (both Diamond and Alliance have the same parent company).  The company deals solely with gaming and, from what my FLGS's tell me, has no real interaction with Diamond.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 10, 2005)

> ... even if I did, I couldn't stand all the screaming and obnoxious CCGs and mini players.




Look- lets just shut that stuff down right here and now.- its a stereotype that is innacurate and furthermore, serves no good purpose.  I'd be willing to bet a lot of those you were thinking about when you composed that sentence were _kids_.  Kida are noisy and they tend to have a clumsy grip of social niceties...and I'm sure even your childhood included screams and spazzing.    Like it or not, within that crowd of kids are a large portion of the next wave of RPG and Wargame players.

I'm 37 & play RPGs, Wargames, CCGs (MTG, Doomtrooper, and a couple of others), and minis games (Chainmail, Confrontation), and that makes me old enough to remember when wargamers and other hobbyists complained about the "noisy, obnoxious" D&D players invading their stores.

The hobby would be better off if more gamers were willing to act like mentors.  Personally, I've introduced a lot of noisy kids to the world of RPGs, mainly because I'm a responsible adult that parents trust.  They know I'm not going to expose their kids to something that would harm them, and I'm going to teach them to play the right way- including how to behave in your GM's/host's house, how to be polite to other players, table etiquette, etc.



> It's easy for people with money to blow on gaming books/cards/minis to critisize others for buying at Toys-R-Us or Amazon instead of a FLGS. It's hard to support a FLGS when you don't even make enough money to buy your own house and you still have to pay rent and live with roommates.




You know, I have a decent income, and every penny matters to me as well.  I buy huge amounts of game product- games, supplements, minis, and Dwarven Forge - and in fact, I often buy duplicates of books I expect to get a lot of use.  I own 3 3Ed PHBs, and 2 3.5PHBs, 2 Arcana Unearthed, 3 RIFTS main books, 3 Mutants & Masterminds main books, 3 Hero 5th edition hardcovers in addition to having a bucket of die and shelves of expansions, modules, sourcebooks etc. to 7 main RPGS and some Core books for lesser games (like Talisantha and GURPS)- all so that my players who are less well off don't have to buy product to game in my house.  I'm even donating game stuff to the troops.  But instead of buying at Toys R Us, Wal-Mart, B&N or Amazon, thereby saving myself thousands of dollars a year, I support my locals.  The ONLY time I buy online is when product is absolutely inavailable to me otherwise, and even THEN, I don't shop the big guys.

For example, my LGS's only started carrying Confrontation minis this year, so I had been buying them from New Wave Games.  Now that my LGS's have Confrontation, I buy it from the locals.  Similarly, most of my LGS's wouldn't carry a certain few War Gods minis because the nudity of those _particular_ minis went against their store policies.  To obtain them, I had to go online.

And I'm still young enough to remember when I didn't have a lot of dough to spend on games.  You know what?  I just saved my money until I could afford to buy what I wanted.  Once I had the Core books, the rest of the stuff didn't matter as much.

I also know what is like not to have a convenient game store.  When I lived in Manhattan, Kansas, the local suppliers (not LGS's- book stores with RPG sections) only carried the same product for months on end- no special orders.  To get the latest stuff, I often had to go on a 1-2 hour trip to Topeka, Wichita, or KC.  That trip cost money.

It is my fervent hope that LGS's DON'T dissapear.  While it is likely that the Internet can help satisfy the established base of the hobby, it can't draw people in like a LGS- no one surfing the net is going to accidentally find a page and wonder "What's with the funny die and the little metal warrior?"  and have someone respond "That's D&D little fella!  Its a game that lets you pretend to be in those books you like...with your buddies!  Let me tell you more..."

That was my initial exposure, and that encounter sold me on the game.  A little picture on the web with a block of text isn't going to sell itself like that salesman sold me that game.


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Jul 10, 2005)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> Look- lets just shut that stuff down right here and now.- its a stereotype that is innacurate and furthermore, serves no good purpose.  I'd be willing to bet a lot of those you were thinking about when you composed that sentence were _kids_.  Kida are noisy and they tend to have a clumsy grip of social niceties...and I'm sure even your childhood included screams and spazzing.    Like it or not, within that crowd of kids are a large portion of the next wave of RPG and Wargame players.




I don't consider people in their late teens and beyond kids.  At that point, they should understand how to behave in public.  It's one thing to have to speak loudly because you have several tables gaming, it's another thing entirely to be shouting profanity and trash-talking.   

And we're discussing our LGSs, which means we're talking personal experience, not stereotypes.  I'm the same age as you, and I can remember gaming in the library and not having the librarian tell us to *shush*.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 10, 2005)

> I don't consider people in their late teens and beyond kids. At that point, they should understand how to behave in public. It's one thing to have to speak loudly because you have several tables gaming, it's another thing entirely to be shouting profanity and trash-talking.




That's true.  I've seen the same behavior in the same age groups in music stores and other locales- our (American) society has seen a BIG slip in people teaching their offspring how to behave.  There was even an article about it in my local paper 3 days ago.

That deterioration is so pronounced it was actually a surprise to me when my Jewler introduced me to his nephew whom he is bringing into the biz as a salesman/marketer.  The kid...OK...Young Adult?...couldn't say "Sir" or "M'am" enough times- he was the model of politeness.

Manners have become the exception rather than the rule.  On the other hand, even people in their 20's can still be taught.  Personally, I have no problem dishing out a verbal correction to someone behaving poorly in public.  I also firmly believe in the power of teaching by example...both negatively and positively.



> I'm the same age as you, and I can remember gaming in the library and not having the librarian tell us to *shush*.




Ditto, although we WERE in the least used (except the rare books room) section of the library, so we were in no jeopardy of disturbing Conan the Librarian.


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Jul 10, 2005)

Yeah...what's wrong with these kids nowadays..   

A lot of the problem, I think, is that the CCGs and mini games are competitive rather than cooperative, and it's just one series of turns after another.  It encourages the rowdiness.

Compare that to RPGs where you are nominally working together, and where turns can take longer and are seperated by long stretches of discussion, description, etc.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 10, 2005)

Could be- I encountered some of those same kids in the video game arcades, begging for quarters.  Then, when some idiot gave them a quarter, they'd kick me off the game...because apparently, the only books they read are the cheat books for video games.  

And I encountered contemporaries who sat across from me at CCG tourneys who were as rude as hell.  One even loudly accused a buddy of mine of being a cheat after a particularly heinous top-decking loss.  It was as ridiculous a claim as could be- poor sportsmanship knows no age limits.

OTOH, I know a lot of kids who are polite gamers even at the CCG & Minis tables...

Socializing really does begin at home...but the "Village" also has a big part to play.

I bet if there were more adult CCG players who would nurture THEIR hobby and teach the young guns how to behave...  

I forgot- we were discussing American gamers. :\


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## wingsandsword (Jul 10, 2005)

Personally, my support of small local businesses isn't just limited to FLGS.  I go out of my way to avoid large chain resturants for example, and eat at local diners and eateries instead.  I shop at local bookstores (Joseph-Beth is magnificent if you're ever in Lexington, beats the pants off of any Barnes & Noble or Borders in every way) instead of the Barnes & Noble way out by the interstate.  If I can get something at _anywhere_ other than Wal-Mart (even if it's another chain like Meijers), I'll do that.  It's just one of my quirks that I try to avoid "big box" and national chain stores whenever possible and support the little guy.  This goes double when I'm travelling, why bother eating at a Denny's or Applebees when I'm in a new city, I could have that anywhere, I'll seek out a local place (or at least a regional chain that isn't present where I live).

Even if it costs a little more, I know the money is more likely to stay in the local economy, it is more likely to support businesses that treat their employees better (in my experience, I've seen big companies treat their employees a lot more inhumanly than small businesses, probably because there are so many layers of separation and dehumanization from the people who make the policies to where they are implimented and the people they affect), and it keeps my home city as a place with a unique character and appearance, instead of having the exact same resturants and stores that every other place in the country has.


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## ShinHakkaider (Jul 10, 2005)

woodelf said:
			
		

> What sorts of discounts are you finding? IME, i can reliably save ~10%, maybe 15%, by buying online.




My last 2 amazon.com orders: 
Dungeon Master's Guide II - Cover Price $39.95, Amazon's price $26.37, savings $13.58 (34%)
Heroes of Battle - Cover Price $29.95, Amazon's price $19.77, savings $10.18 (34%)

The money I saved on this purchase was almost enough for me to by a 3rd WOTC book (if there were anything that I wanted). A total savings of $23.76 which for me is no small amount of money. As for purchasing from other publishers, if it's not available as PDF then I really don't care, for the most part. 

(The rest of this is a general address, not specifically aimed at woodelf, so take this however you want to)

The bottom line is if the RPG industry fell apart RIGHT NOW with no new product EVER again, that still wouldnt stop me from playing with the present available resources. I dont want the RPG industry to go away, but I also like the extra money in my pocket as well. I've bought my fair share of RPG product from my LGS thousands of dollars worth over the years, so much that I've wound up donating alot of gaming books to the local library. So I'm not trying to hear "buy at your LGS, save the hobby." I think that I've done my share to help keep the hobby afloat, especially for Hero Games and WOTC. If I want to save some of my hard earned cash then I'll do so. It's either that or I get out of the hobby. And If I get out that means my freinds get out, that means my son never learns, that means the kids and adults that I would have introduced the hobby to, dont get introduced to it. I do my part to keep the hobby alive and all these insinuations of behavior to the contrary (because of not looking at the BIG PICTURE or the LONG RUN) are kind of insulting. I've been playing since I was 11-12 years old and buying product since my first summer youth employment job at 14. I'm 33 now so seriously, I've done my share of supporting, I'm not STEALING the books. I'm buying them legitimately at a lower price.  

You want to keep the hobby alive, really. Then buy my share of the books for me. If youre not going to do that then there's nothing that youre gonna say that's gonna convince me, and I'm guessing more than a few others that your way is the RIGHT way for me.


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## Tatsukun (Jul 10, 2005)

Well, I guess I see the trend of larger and larger groups of people working together to accomplish what they want. Call it large groups of people, or call it “big business”; either way they can almost always out compete the small groups of people; the so-called “Mom & Pop shops” for things in which economies of scale help. 

I personally don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with large groups. I couldn’t care less about the inefficient small groups (shops). They are competing in a marketplace, if they can’t compete, they have to adapt (change) to a new market. They can offer new products, services, whatever. 

I know this sounds harsh, but that’s life. If a group (shop) refuses to adapt, and tries to compete in a market in which they are inefficient, they loose. That’s it. 

Now, I like small shops, I can get to know people there. To me, that’s an advantage, a “competitive advantage”. It just comes down to the question of if that’s enough. 

To me, no. To others, maybe. 

For the record (and my good name here on Enworld), I DO support my FLGS by buying the products / services for which they have a competitive advantage. I go there to game, and to buy paints. I like their coffee, but their books / gaming stuff / games are all too expensive. I don’t buy that stuff there. 

It’s as simple as that to me. 

 -Tatsu


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 10, 2005)

> My last 2 amazon.com orders:
> Dungeon Master's Guide II - Cover Price $39.95, Amazon's price $26.37, savings $13.58 (34%)
> Heroes of Battle - Cover Price $29.95, Amazon's price $19.77, savings $10.18 (34%)




What we need, and I cannot provide, is an example of what a typical LGS pays for a DMG II or Heroes of Battle as compared to Amazon's price for the same product.

My guess is that Amazon pays WOTC (much) less/unit than the LGS because it:

1)  Has lower overhead because it has minimal physical plant and fewer employees/volume of product moved.

2)  It has the economies of scale that allows it to order in bulk.

3)  It can negotiate a lower price because of its market power.

4)  It can negotiate favorable terms in its contracts because of market power, and manipulate/violate those terms with impunity.

5)  Amazon absolutely _does not need _WOTC (or any other RPG)  products.

One could counter that Hasbro (WOTC's current parent company) has significant market power.  While this is true, Amazon' annual sales of $6,921.1M eclipse Hasbro's $2,997.5M (source, Hoovers.com).  If Hasbro found itself going to war in every WOTC vs Amazon contract negotiation-as well as all the other Hasbro products- its more likely that Hasbro would find divestiture of WOTC to be preferable.


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## Chairman7w (Jul 10, 2005)

I'm just upset that I went to TRU looking for that bargain and they were out.


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## woodelf (Jul 10, 2005)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> It is my fervent hope that LGS's DON'T dissapear. While it is likely that the Internet can help satisfy the established base of the hobby, it can't draw people in like a LGS- no one surfing the net is going to accidentally find a page and wonder "What's with the funny die and the little metal warrior?" and have someone respond "That's D&D little fella! Its a game that lets you pretend to be in those books you like...with your buddies! Let me tell you more..."




oh, i dunno. Given how easy it is to stumble upon a porn site when you're not looking for one, surely it would be possible to make RPG sites as in-your-face ubiquitous?


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## woodelf (Jul 10, 2005)

Some guy from Ohio said:
			
		

> So what is being said here? We should keep the small “mom and pop” store in business, be it a gaming store, book store, coffee shop, retail store, whatever? Is this just out of spite towards the huge chain store that everybody hates, but everyone still frequents?




I hope the only people who hate them and still frequent them (1) live somewhere where there is no other choice and (2) didn't frequent them when there still was a choice. 'Cause, otherwise, i got no sympathy for them. Me? I don't like the large chains with predatory pricing practices and horrible employee policies--so i don't shop at them. Save perhaps in desperation.

And disliking a business for reasons of how it does business is not "just out of spite"--it's the cornerstone of a free market: the ability to decide how you want to do business, both as producer and consumer. In my particular case, there are concrete differences between the big-box chains and local businesses, and i want to encourage the latter and discourage the former, so i spend my dollars appropriately. I'm doing what little i have in my power to say "if you do business in this way, it will cost you money, no matter what your prices are."


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## woodelf (Jul 10, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> I think browsing is overrated. The people that are going to buy material from smaller publishers are probably already aware of what the product is from message boards like EN World. You can also read reviews. Browsing isn't worth $10 in my book.
> 
> And as Mystery Man said, why not go browse and then by online?




Because then the store won't be there to browse at, in the future. If you see value in browsing, then you should be giving your money to the business that supports your browsing habit. If you don't see value in browsing, then quit browsing.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 10, 2005)

fredramsey said:
			
		

> Have at it. No one is telling you what to do.
> 
> I just don't think Wal-Mart is going to carry Burning Wheel, or CoC, for that matter.




No Burning Wheel, but CoC...yup.

I really wish there was an FLGS in my hometown.  As I've mentioned before, there are two about 30 to 40 miles from me, but I refuse to patronize one and the other is just too far off the beaten path for me.  I lived a year in St. Louis (2000-2001) and the Fantasy Shoppe chain of FLGS's was exactly that... Friendly and Local.   7 or 8 stores in the StL metro area, stocked to the gills with gaming goodness.  I wish wish wish there was just one store like that within reasonable distance from me, because I'd gladly pay the extra amount to support a small, local business.

I buy either online or from Hastings (the latter of which seems to be carrying fewer and fewer items and publishers of gaming material) and they no longer offer the standard 10% discount on new items like they used to for gaming related publications.  So it's online for me.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 10, 2005)

> oh, i dunno. Given how easy it is to stumble upon a porn site when you're not looking for one, surely it would be possible to make RPG sites as in-your-face ubiquitous?




The porn industry makes more money than "legitimate" Hollywood and has a larger market than the total number of voters in the last election.  They can afford the money to pay for pop-up ads.

The RPG industry can't compete with that.


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## mhacdebhandia (Jul 10, 2005)

The three role-playing gaming stores in Sydney proper don't offer me as a roleplaying gamer anything other than products which may or may not be competititvely priced. One of the three stores hosts gaming events, but this takes the form of _Magic: the Gathering_ or _Legend of the Five Rings_ drafts and the like.

Ironically, the one that does this is also far and away the least friendly of the bunch - the staff are generally cool (I've worked there myself for a few months, and the current staff includes two friends of mine from my university gaming society) but the proprietors are dismissive and seem to wish that they could survive selling only jigsaw puzzles and board games.

They have a very good range, but it's not any better than at the other dedicated gaming store in the city. This second store has a much friendlier staff, but unfortunately has little to offer apart from their range - their prices are generally slightly higher than at the first store, which has the advantage of being vertically integrated (so to speak) with its proprietors' importing and distribution company.

The third store majors in historical wargaming and only minors in roleplaying games, but tend to have pretty good prices. It's good for major releases, basically.

I understand that there is a store in Burwood and another in Blacktown which offer actual roleplaying gaming action, but I have no desire to drive that far to a single store.

Besides which, I have no need or desire to game in-store. Sydney has three universities with fairly active gaming clubs - and several annual conventions if you're into that sort of thing - so it's not too hard to find gaming action.

Admittedly, though, I personally know several people who found these clubs by asking the staff at various gaming stores.

I like to shop at them when I can, but sometimes it's just not worth the hour's drive into the city from my home. Realistically, I have to factor the cost of the drive and parking into the cost of the books.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 11, 2005)

I didn't have the advantage of internet shopping when I lived in Kansas, but I could have ordered stuff by mail from fine shops all over the USA who advertised (and still do) in Dragon Magazine.  Instead, I supported my locals...even when those "locals" were 2 hours away in KC or Wichita.  Most regular purchases were made in Manhattan (KS), but once every month or 2, I'd go to KC and buy something in "the big city"- sometimes I'd even take and fill orders from other gamers.

I don't think anyone thinks you should support a store just because its local, and price IS a valid consideration.  However, in this as in *all* consumer transactions, you should subscribe to the doctrine of enlightened self-interest.  That is, you should try to be an informed consumer.

IMHO, price should not be your sole criterion for deciding where to buy anything.  Customer service, is another important factor.  Shopping environment is another consideration.  Behavior of the competition is still another-if the competition is price cutting just to get market share, I avoid them- and that is one of the MAJOR tactics the big guys use.


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## Li Shenron (Jul 11, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> Side rant: What's all this nonsense about "supporting" our FLGS, anyway? What are they, charities? Support, my ass.  If I want to give "support" to something it will be my family, my friends, my church, my co-workers, or my local charities.  Dear FLGS, you're a *business*, for frick's sake.  Support *yourself* and stop whining.  And while you're at it, stop jacking up the price of Attack! and other games.




When I go shopping, the cost is a factor but it is not the only factor.

If I know that the company which makes what I'm buying (or the shop which is selling it) is responsible of acts which I consider ethically unacceptable, I just don't buy their stuff. I instead go to a different shop, or (if the manufacturer is to blame) I buy something equivalent from a different manufacturers. Often the choice has a personal cost, such as having to say "no" to my favourite chocolates, having to settle for second-choice shoes or having to drive the car to the next gas station.

Most of the times there are no such serious issues (well, there probably are, but we just don't know enough of them), but I still make choices to "support" what I think it would improve the general state of things. In general, when I have to buy something, I give precedence to stuff made in my country, and secondary I give precedence to stuff made in the EU. I don't mind if these products cost a little more, but obviously if the difference becomes large enough I surely buy a US or Chinese product.

Similar thing with little shops: if the price isn't so different I prefer to buy from small shops rather than big malls. It's not so important with RPGs, but with food for instance it is. I have good reasons to believe that concentrating business in few large-scales mall companies reduces the competitivess of the market, brings too much power in their hands and bla bla bla...

Now, in the case of your book, there clearly is too much of a difference in the price.   I would have never felt guilty for having bought that book half-price from a big mall (big vendors can afford to sell stuff under-cost sometimes, because it can actually be profitable to do so). If your LGS is overpricing stuff regularly, they either (1) have problems with keeping their expenses low and aren't making enough money to survive as a business or (2) have a too high expectance of how money they should make. If you find out the reason, that would help you make a choice.


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## Mark Chance (Jul 11, 2005)

Gomez said:
			
		

> If all FLGS went out of business I think that the role-playing gaming hobby would take a serious hit and most likely have serious repercussions to the well being of gaming companies.




That may very well be true.

But, I have everything I'll ever need to game right now in the very room I'm sitting in. Every single gaming store and RPG publisher in the universe could go under tomorrow (God forbid!), and it wouldn't affect my gaming a bit.


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## Gentlegamer (Jul 11, 2005)

Let me ask you all advocating buying from local shops: do you also support buying only books and RPG materials manufactured in the US (if you're American)?


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## Belen (Jul 11, 2005)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> What we need, and I cannot provide, is an example of what a typical LGS pays for a DMG II or Heroes of Battle as compared to Amazon's price for the same product.




The DMG II cost my FLGS $24 and Heroes of Battle cost them $18.  This was ordering directly from Wizards.  If they ordered those same books from Alliamce, then they would have paid an additional $1.50/book.  And a store cannot order directly from Wizards unless that have premier status, so a lot of stores would be paying the Alliance prices,


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## Belen (Jul 11, 2005)

Gentlegamer said:
			
		

> Let me ask you all advocating buying from local shops: do you also support buying only books and RPG materials manufactured in the US (if you're American)?




This is a tricky question because many items are not made in the US.  I cannot go out and purchase the D&D Minis set that was produced in the US because they are only produced in China.  

However, as a publisher, we have refused to use print facilities outside of the US, despite extensive differences in the cost of production.  

What I find funny, is that if the FLGS do go under, then in 20 years, if the hobby still exists, then will we see the same people refusing to buy from Amazon because KaZaa is free?


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## Li Shenron (Jul 11, 2005)

Gentlegamer said:
			
		

> Let me ask you all advocating buying from local shops: do you also support buying only books and RPG materials manufactured in the US (if you're American)?




Books are not really substitutable items. If you want a book written by a certain spanish poet, you cannot really buy a similar book by e.g. an american poet because after all they're both poetry books   

But if D&D books were also _printed_ locally instead of being just shipped from the US, I'd prefer buying the local versions. Transportation of goods is such a waste of time, money, labor and it pollutes a lot.


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## Rykion (Jul 11, 2005)

No one is obligated to support their local gaming store.  Many choose to support them because they feel that the services they provide are worth the extra money.  If you don't feel that your local store is providing enough of a service, or their prices are too high, then don't buy from them. 

Realise that as the local gaming stores go out of business, so will most of the small game publishers.  There will be fewer outlets for new products and less variety.  Some of the big box stores and their online stores will likely drop all gaming products as they are low sale items that they carried only to compete with stores that no longer exist.  The rate at which new gamers start playing will slow.   The hobby won't go under, but will be diminished.


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## GlassJaw (Jul 11, 2005)

> Realise that as the local gaming stores go out of business, so will most of the small game publishers.




I'd be willing to bet that a large portion of the small publishers get most of their revenue from the internet and not the small stores.  Most of the LGS I've been to don't really carry many products from small publishers.


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## Arashi Ravenblade (Jul 11, 2005)

I prefer Amazon, i usually only buy from a game store if they have it in before Amazon Like they had the DMG2 and Waterdeep way before hand so i bought it there, however Weapons of Legacy is not at my game store but Amazon has it, guess where im getting it. And around Christmas and my birthday i always stress to family memebers to buy from Amazon as i can get more that way.
I got nearly 10 RPG book last x-mas BC of Amazon, in past years its been more like 2-3 books bc of the local game shops prices, sure they have to stay in business and make a profit but im not letting go of a possible 7 extra books to keep them in business.


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## Belen (Jul 11, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> I'd be willing to bet that a large portion of the small publishers get most of their revenue from the internet and not the small stores.  Most of the LGS I've been to don't really carry many products from small publishers.




Yet the mid-tier publishers will go under.  If the stores go, then so do the distributors.


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## Belen (Jul 11, 2005)

Arashi Ravenblade said:
			
		

> I got nearly 10 RPG book last x-mas BC of Amazon, in past years its been more like 2-3 books bc of the local game shops prices, sure they have to stay in business and make a profit but im not letting go of a possible 7 extra books to keep them in business.




If those books are never produced, then you cannot buy them in the first place.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 11, 2005)

Just for the record, I asked a general form of the "how much of a discount do big retailers get from game companies" in the Ask Gygax thread.  He responded in Post#977 that the big guys DO generally get bigger discounts on their orders.

So just keep that in mind: its not neccessarily your LGS raising prices, there is also the factor that the Amazons of the world simply have more economic power, and can discount the games and still make profits.

Caveat Emptor!


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## wingsandsword (Jul 11, 2005)

One thing I've realized about the FLGS here in my city, is that most are comic book stores mainly, who have a bookshelf, or wall, or corner or other portion of their space devoted to gaming (there is one true dedicated FLGS in town though, and 3 comic stores with gaming).  Some are much more enthusiastic about it (holding CCG/minis tournaments), some make a big point of carrying small-press/d20 works, while others just stock WotC & White Wolf stuff, but of retail places to get gaming materials, I'm noticing that RPG's often sell along the same independent small business channels as comic books.  Comic books aren't normally bought online, and they aren't typically sold by "big boxes".  There is also a lot of crossover between casual fans of the two mediums.  It forms a symbiosis, as long as the local comic stores are alive and healthy, the gaming industry will be helped, if the gaming industry goes under it will hurt the comic stores too.


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## fredramsey (Jul 11, 2005)

Gentlegamer said:
			
		

> Let me ask you all advocating buying from local shops: do you also support buying only books and RPG materials manufactured in the US (if you're American)?




Nope, they don't have to be.

Different motivation there, though. I choose to buy from the FLGS because of my own, selfish reasons, if you boil it down. I want the conveinence that shop provides me. So the reason is not quite as altruistic as it may first seem. It has nothing to do with compassion or nobility. It's all about me, baby.


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## Rykion (Jul 11, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> I'd be willing to bet that a large portion of the small publishers get most of their revenue from the internet and not the small stores. Most of the LGS I've been to don't really carry many products from small publishers.




The one and two person operations that rely on PDFs and print on demand will probably not be effected, but the small companies that actually publish boardgames, strategy games, and printed books will be.  In my area at least 2 local gaming stores do carry a good supply of smaller companies' goods.  The local chain stores stock almost exclusively Wizards of the Coast books.  Without the LGS the only market for small publishers will be online and that will make an already niche market even smaller.


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## fredramsey (Jul 11, 2005)

woodelf said:
			
		

> And if we had a true free market, that'd probably be true. We don't. Too many of the large players in the market are involved in controlling the information that everyone has about the market. As a result, big companies and little businesses don't play by the same rules--much moreso than just things like economies of scale would account for.




Absolutely.

And you don't have to be in the free market at all if you're an airline


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## buzz (Jul 11, 2005)

Let me preface my comments by mentioning that I organize the ENWorld Chicago Gameday, which is held at Games Plus in Mt. Prospect, IL, one of the best stores in the US. The event brings anywhere from 30-50 people together for a day of gaming and shopping three times a year. Older gamers sometimes bring their kids. Basically, I do something to support a good store and the hobby.



			
				fredramsey said:
			
		

> While this is not an exact example of why you should support your FLGS, it's close. It's not landing wheels, it's dice. It's impulse buys. It's leafing through the game book. It's being able to look at and buy non-d20 stuff, or d20 stuff from smaller publishers. It's about being able to buy a boardgame that We-Be-Toys would never think of selling.



Making an impulse buy online is something I can do quite easily from home, and the low prices are an added incentive. Leafing through the game book is sort of moot now; most companies who have a clue offer extensive previews, and I can pour over them at my lesiure, rather than fit all my browsing into the time I have when I am at a store. Non-d20 products and small press products are much easier to find online than in a store.

Let's also add that the collective online gaming community can offer me far more and far more insightful opinions than the staff of the average game store; we're simply talking more available brainpower here. The online retailer also doesn't require me to get up, get dressed, and drive to a physical location in order to make the purchase or do the browsing. And speaking of being able to physically handle the product before buying, there's something to be said for not being at the mercy of a store's manhandled inventory. This is one of the main reasons I rarely buy books (gaming or non) from brick-and-mortar retailers anymore.

Honestly, I find it very difficult to fault people for making decisions based on price. That's pretty much how we buy just about eveyrthing else. How many people here will pay more for, say, gasoline in order to patronize a particular seller, barring some perk program?

I also don't see the value in appealing to people's sense of "community" or whatever in an effort to get them to patronize LGSs. Joe Gamer, like Joe Public, isn't looking that far ahead, and shouldn't necessarily have to. Gaming is a luxury, not a charity.

Does the hobby need FLGSs to survive? I don't think so.

(Then why do you run Gamedays, buzz?)

Does the hobby need _a means for players to get together, form communities, and be there to introduce new people to the hobby, particularly in a social, out-in-the-public way?_

Heck yeah! The question is, does the FLGS need to serve that purpose? My answer: not necessarily.

First off, I see no reason why a Wal-Mart-like gaming megastore couldn't serve the same sort of function. People love to complain about Starbucks, but the fact is that Starbucks locations are generally very comfortably-decorated, clean, "homey" shops that serve tasty drinks and treats. They actively encourage people to just hang out in the store, chat, read a book, or sit quietly, regardless of whether they've  bought anything. Big n' Corporate doesn't have to mean crappy and impersonal.

Big bookstores like Border's and B&N figured this out, too. When I was a lad, the local bookstores in my town (Kroch's, Crown, both out of business *hint*) were like any other store: lots of shelves and aisles, somewhat okay selection of product. What does any good bookstore look like now? Like a large version of the classic, hole-in-the-wall used book shop: tons of books and lots of places to _sit down_. Most have Starbucks built into them, too.

I.e., when you can't compete on price, you need to compete on some other aspect. If what the FLGS is really contributing to the hobby is networking and community, not selection and price, then it needs to focus on the former. 

And if not the FLGS, then the publishers. If companies (like WotC) have the wherewithal to have delegates who do demos at stores, they can do demos at other venues as well.

(Let's also not neglect to mention the online community. My renewed interest in gaming with the release of 3e, the three gaming groups I'm in, and my involvement with Gameday all had the 'Net as a starting place.)

And if, you, as a gamer, care about the hobby community, you'd probably be contributing to it more by organizing events, running demos, offering to teach an RPG class at the local community college, giving RPGs as gifts to potential gamers, and making sure a PHB ends up in your local library than you would by haranguing people to support their LGS. (Especially given how dismal the economy has been; I can't blame people for wanting to save a few bucks when they can, even on luxury items.)

That said, if you have a FLGS that you feel gives you benefits worth paying full price, by all means patronize the place.

I think the simple fact is that markets change. To stay viable, businesses need to change right along with them. They need to get creative. The RPG hobby, like many other things, has been transformed by the 'Net. The natue of the LGS, if it is to survive, needs to transform as well.


----------



## kigmatzomat (Jul 11, 2005)

Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> But let's say I want to buy the DMG II, and the small store was selling it at MSRP ($39.95) while Walmart.com had it for 15% less.






			
				fredramsey said:
			
		

> I just don't think Wal-Mart is going to carry Burning Wheel, or CoC, for that matter.






			
				DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> No Burning Wheel, but CoC...yup.




I don't know where everyone who quotes Wal-Mart D&D prices are located, but I'm in Louisville which is not only in the Bible Belt but is the official headquarters for 3 religions.  Our Wal-Mart's do *not* sell D&D, not in the toy department nor the book area.  Oh, occassionally some of the larger minis will show up in the toy area but it is not a regular occurrence.  

You cannot count on Wal-Mart to sell you something if you are not the majority.  They cowtow to the loudest group with the most dollars to spend and if that group feels that D&D is "evil" then Walmart won't sell it.  Same goes for music & entertainment (CDs and DVDs sold at our walmarts are the sanitized versions).  Even if your store currently sell it, The Waltons can easily make it a corporate wide policy and you'll have no means of redress or expressing displeasure.  

Gamers are a niche market; we do not have the market force to influence any major chain.  Small stores are the only ones where we matter.  

Having said that:
Above all else, if your LGS is not friendly or helpful point out to the owner that service is the only reason you shop local over Amazon and if there service continues to suck your dollars will leave the area.  

For those who's budget is too small to let you buy at MSRP visit your LGS to see if they have what you want used at a price you can afford.  I was a poor college student for a long time and I lived on used gaming supplies.  They may not make the store as much money but it's still profit.


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## buzz (Jul 11, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> Amazon is the reason that WOTC now sells 160 page books for the price of the 192 page books.  Paper, while expensive, has not risen that much in the last few years.  So keep buying from Amazon.  You're only going to continue to increase the price of books.



I'm not sure I understand how the two have anything to do with each other. What if it's just WotC deciding that RPGs have been underpriced for a long time (as some contend), and that it's been a tough year for the industry as a whole? Or that, if everything they do for D&D has to be hardcover, the 160pp format for lesser titles is more viable?


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## Rykion (Jul 11, 2005)

kigmatzomat said:
			
		

> I don't know where everyone who quotes Wal-Mart D&D prices are located, but I'm in Louisville which is not only in the Bible Belt but is the official headquarters for 3 religions. Our Wal-Mart's do *not* sell D&D, not in the toy department nor the book area. Oh, occassionally some of the larger minis will show up in the toy area but it is not a regular occurrence.




I've never seen an RPG at Wal-Mart either.  People are mostly talking about Wal-Mart's online store.


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## kigmatzomat (Jul 11, 2005)

scourger said:
			
		

> I think I'll keep bugging my FLGS for _Tour of Darkness_ rather than ordering it online as I could have for the past 6 weeks.




If your FLGS is that nonresponsive are they still considered Friendly?   Sucky stores do not deserve repeat patronage simply because they are a niche market.   

Ask them when their next shipment is due to arrive.  Tell them if Tour of Darkness isn't on it then you'll buy it from Amazon and have it in a couple of days.  Remind them you first asked them for it six weeks ago and that you've been patient.

There could be a reason; One book I wanted was unavailable from 3 different distributors b/c someone at Walden Book miskeyed an order and wound up with the bulk of the region's allocation.  The FLGS was working on buying the excess from Walden but rather than making me wait told me which Walden had them so I could get it immediately.


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## kigmatzomat (Jul 11, 2005)

Rykion said:
			
		

> I've never seen an RPG at Wal-Mart either.  People are mostly talking about Wal-Mart's online store.




Ahh, I missed that part.  But it doesn't change the fact Sam Walton Jr. could decide D&D is evil at any time and stop all distribution of it.  Or worse, require "sanitized" D&D.  Gack!


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## Glyfair (Jul 11, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> I'd be willing to bet that a large portion of the small publishers get most of their revenue from the internet and not the small stores.  Most of the LGS I've been to don't really carry many products from small publishers.




I was talking with one of my FLGS owners yesterday.  Recently a fulfillment house went out of business (one of the companies that individual game companies use to sell to distributors, because the distributors don't like dealing with small companies).  

Apparently, this has left most of the companies that dealt with this company in severe finiancial difficulties. I don't know if we'll lose any companies by this, but a number are certainly on the bubble.  If they "got most of their revenue from the internet" than this shouldn't be that more than a brief problem.

Now, maybe these companies _should_ be using the internet more.  Maybe these are mostly companies that don't have quality materials and the industry would be served by them going out of business.  I don't have any names, so I couldn't even give my opinion.


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## WayneLigon (Jul 11, 2005)

kigmatzomat said:
			
		

> Ahh, I missed that part. But it doesn't change the fact Sam Walton Jr. could decide D&D is evil at any time and stop all distribution of it. Or worse, require "sanitized" D&D. Gack!




For the last, only if Wal-Mart accounted for an unusually large percentage of sales. Wal-Mart and it's subsidiaries is so large and ubiquitous that it can force the hand of some suppliers; if a supplier sees, say, 25% of their total sales through Wal-Mart then that supplier is going to do anything he can to avoid ticking off Wal-Mart or he's not going to be able to pay his rent, pay down his debts, pay his employees, or satisfy his board of directors or investors. I doubt D&D would see the majority of it's sales through them, so Wal-Mart could only ban it. If it bothered in the first place.

Any other chain could do so at any time, or an individual store could do it, depending on the leeway granted to them by the parent corporation. I went to a B. Dalton's in Atlanta once and, upon not finding the normal RPG section, inquired from the manager where it was. She said 'We don't carry that, thank goodness'. I mentioned this to a friend of mine up North, also a B. Dalton manager, and she said that it might well have been because RPG's rarely bring in enough profit to justify the mess (only the childrens section and the remaindered tables require more upkeep than the RPG/Comics section) and number of cheap-o looky-loos the section generates. If Wal-Mart or anyone else doesn't sell RPG's, it's because it doesn't generate enough cash. Niche markets need to expect that.


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## wingsandsword (Jul 11, 2005)

kigmatzomat said:
			
		

> Gamers are a niche market; we do not have the market force to influence any major chain.  Small stores are the only ones where we matter.



Ding!

I've never seen any RPG at Wal-Mart.  Last Christmas I got a gift card to Wal Mart as a door  prize at a company Christmas party.  Usually not going to Mal-Wart for dislike of how they treat their workers, hurt small and large businesses (look at what they did to Vlasic pickles!), sue small towns that try to use zoning laws to prevent them from building there, I wasn't too crystal clear on what they had and didn't have, but I didn't have the highest hopes for using that card to buy the newest D&D books.  However, since I knew they carried popular CCG's (i.e. Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh and Magic), I figured that the mass-marketed D&D and Star Wars minis might be there, no luck.  (They did have a very small amount of Star Wars minis, probably just one case, in the initial merchandising for Episode III, but they didn't restock).

"Big box" stores are not our friends in the long run.  They cater to the masses, and we are not the masses.  We are a niche, a speciality, and there are still a lot of people in the more rural areas of this country who falsely believe our hobby is just thinly veiled devil worship and cult recruiting.  As a niche, we need a niche market, and the small, independent retail store is excellent for that.  Personally, I'd gag at a starbucks-like gaming chain (I already don't go to starbucks for their overpriced coffee, if I want coffee I know plenty of local coffeehouses to go to).


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## eris404 (Jul 11, 2005)

buzz said:
			
		

> I think the simple fact is that markets change. To stay viable, businesses need to change right along with them. They need to get creative. The RPG hobby, like many other things, has been transformed by the 'Net. The natue of the LGS, if it is to survive, needs to transform as well.




Buzz, your entire post was dead on, but this last paragraph was especially and it's something that a lot of small business (not just book or game stores) need to take to heart. I also think Games Plus has done just that - excellent selection of all kinds of games, a rewards program, gaming space, etc.  One of my dreams is to open a game/book store like GP combined with some kind of cafe. I have no idea if it would actually work, but one can still dream.


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## fredramsey (Jul 11, 2005)

But it doesn't matter to me what *you* do. I choose to support my FLGS for the shelfish reason I want them to be around. *Me*, not *you*. I could give half a... what you want.

I'm not trying to get *YOU* to do it. I just don't want other people telling me it's stupid for *me* to do so.

Simple, really.



			
				buzz said:
			
		

> Let me preface my comments by mentioning that I organize the ENWorld Chicago Gameday, which is held at Games Plus in Mt. Prospect, IL, one of the best stores in the US. The event brings anywhere from 30-50 people together for a day of gaming and shopping three times a year. Older gamers sometimes bring their kids. Basically, I do something to support a good store and the hobby.


----------



## GlassJaw (Jul 11, 2005)

> Recently a fulfillment house went out of business (one of the companies that individual game companies use to sell to distributors, because the distributors don't like dealing with small companies).




Well if this is the company/story that I've heard about, they didn't just go out of business, they took some publishers's money and RAN.  They flat-out didn't pay people.



> there is also the factor that the Amazons of the world simply have more economic power, and can discount the games and still make profits.




This is exactly the case.  They can buy a ton of books in bulk on the cheap and then sell them at a lower profit margin per book.  Whereas your LGS may need to recoup $5-10 per book sold, Amazon only needs to make $1.  



> If those books are never produced, then you cannot buy them in the first place.




The sky is falling!!


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## GlassJaw (Jul 11, 2005)

> I choose to support my FLGS for the shelfish reason I want them to be around.




Your LGS serves shellfish?  Wow, that's definitely a unique idea!



> I'm not trying to get YOU to do it. I just don't want other people telling me it's stupid for me to do so.




I don't think anyone said supporting or not supporting your LGS is or isn't stupid.  However, I've gotten a tone from some of the "supporters" that those who don't support their LGS are killing the hobby or some nonsense.  Some of the posts sound a little "holier than thou" is all (IMO).


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## buzz (Jul 11, 2005)

eris404 said:
			
		

> One of my dreams is to open a game/book store like GP combined with some kind of cafe. I have no idea if it would actually work, but one can still dream.



When my wife and I talk about opening a game store, our imagined location always has a cafe attached (as well as lots of play space). You need to give people a reason to hang out. Not to mention, you never know when someone will come to the palce for the coffee, and then notice all these game products.

"What the heck is dee and dee?"

Bingo! Potential covert.


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## Belen (Jul 11, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone said supporting or not supporting your LGS is or isn't stupid.  However, I've gotten a tone from some of the "supporters" that those who don't support their LGS are killing the hobby or some nonsense.  Some of the posts sound a little "holier than thou" is all (IMO).




Really, that it how it sounds on the other end of the spectrum.  Some guys starts a thread bashing game stores and some people defend them.  Then a bunch of people who buy online defend online sales, as if they felt guilty about it and needed to justify it to themselves.


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## Belen (Jul 11, 2005)

buzz said:
			
		

> When my wife and I talk about opening a game store, our imagined location always has a cafe attached (as well as lots of play space). You need to give people a reason to hang out. Not to mention, you never know when someone will come to the palce for the coffee, and then notice all these game products.
> 
> "What the heck is dee and dee?"
> 
> Bingo! Potential covert.




See, my friends have a coffee pot and will brew stuff for their gamers.  I keep trying to get them to invest in a SBA loan, move to a larger location and sell PC games, have a lan/console room, large gameroom, and a reading room.

Plus coffee.


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## buzz (Jul 11, 2005)

fredramsey said:
			
		

> But it doesn't matter to me what *you* do. I choose to support my FLGS for the shelfish reason I want them to be around. *Me*, not *you*. I could give half a... what you want.



I'm not telling you what to do. The paragraph of yours that I quoted just summed up the common selling points attributed to LGSs, and I wanted to address them. As I said in my post, if your FLGS is giving you what you want for a price you feel is reasonable, by all means patronize them.

I don't get to Games Plus much more often than Gamedays, as I don't live all that close. Even when I'm there, my brain is telling me "You can get all this cheaper online!" Nonetheless, thalmin and co. have a wonderful store, with all kinds of cool products, great service, offer a frequent-buyer program, and provide a huge amount of gaming space. They host all sorts of events, too (such as Gameday). Ergo, I make a point to buy stuff when I'm there. I may seek out items that I know I can't get any (or much) cheaper online, but I still buy stuff. Heck, I usually manage to fill up my "frequent" buyer card with one purchase. 

My LGS is a Gamer's Paradise. No one who works there knows anything about the product (they had to ask *me* to help a customer one time). Everything is full price, they have no frequent buyer program that I know of, and their selection is okay. Sometimes they put product they can't move on sale, which is about the only time I buy anything from them. I see no reason to go out of my way to support them.

The old adage with good and services is that there's three qualities: fast, good, and cheap. You can never have more than two of these qualities. 

Online stores can give me good and cheap, but not fast, as I need to wait for something to be shipped.

(I'm not sure if PDFs conquer the "fast" problem, seeing as you lose some "good", either due to not getting a printed product, or due to the PDF market not yet having the same consistent quality as the print market.)

BnM stores can potentially give me fast and good, but they can't compete on cheap. Ergo, they need to concentrate on the former, particularly the "good".


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Jul 11, 2005)

fredramsey said:
			
		

> I choose to support my FLGS for the shelfish reason...




Most people support them for the halibut.


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## jgbrowning (Jul 11, 2005)

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> Most people support them for the halibut.




You haddock go there, you just haddock.   

joe b.


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## buzz (Jul 11, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> See, my friends have a coffee pot and will brew stuff for their gamers.  I keep trying to get them to invest in a SBA loan, move to a larger location and sell PC games, have a lan/console room, large gameroom, and a reading room.
> 
> Plus coffee.



They should listen to you.  Games Plus is wise enough to have soda vending machines and lots of candy/snacks for sale.

I keep thinking it would also be a good idea to set up the shelves as more of a library, with 1-2 display-only copies of each product you carry. The product the customer buys is then one "untouched by human hands" from the storeroom. Also, even if a product is not in stock, there's a copy for someone to look at that may prompt them to order it from the store. Every once in a while you can then sell the display copies at a discount, or even hold an auction, which gets bodies into the store.


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## Belen (Jul 11, 2005)

buzz said:
			
		

> They should listen to you.  Games Plus is wise enough to have soda vending machines and lots of candy/snacks for sale.
> 
> I keep thinking it would also be a good idea to set up the shelves as more of a library, with 1-2 display-only copies of each product you carry. The product the customer buys is then one "untouched by human hands" from the storeroom. Also, even if a product is not in stock, there's a copy for someone to look at that may prompt them to order it from the store. Every once in a while you can then sell the display copies at a discount, or even hold an auction, which gets bodies into the store.




They sell soda and snacks too.  All of their store copies are slipped inside if giant ziplock bags.


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## PJ-Mason (Jul 11, 2005)

buzz said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if PDFs conquer the "fast" problem, seeing as you lose some "good", either due to not getting a printed product, or due to the PDF market not yet having the same consistent quality as the print market.)




Well the PDFs has LGS beat on fast for getting the supplement. You can go To Rpgnow and buy a file and be reading it before the other gamer gets to the LGS to buy that print book. As for print speed of Rpgnow's (and others) print service vs the LGS...no contest. LGS wins. IF your LGS has the game. If it doesn't, then the print/pdf service wins again.

PDF's generally win on Cheap and the only times they don't is when the company worries that the pdfs will undermine their print sales. Which only reinforces the superiority of pdfs in that respect, IMO. Even the cost for printing out a pdf in your paper is usually cheaper than buying full price print books. Or even using the print service that most pdf publishers are using (or dabbling in) is cheaper. Frankly being able to print things yourself is an advantage that most gamers hesitant about pdf industry don't acknowledge yet. But many eventually will and all the little kiddies growing up on computers from a young age won't think twice about it.

Good is relative, but i have more crappy books in my "to sell" box next to me as i type this post than i do crappy pdfs in the game folder on my laptop. 

Btw, The whole thing about being able to browse at stores is a no sell for me. Most PDFs have demos and its not all that hard to find reviews on even obscure games. In fact its much easier to find out about obscure games online than going to the LGS who might not have any idea who or what you are talking about. Outside of WOTC or White Wolf. Frankly its big rpg companies that profits from LGS's. I can't see how people can detest Amazon and such companies and support/vindicate/work for WOTC.

Frankly, i don't think the LGS's going out of business will kill the hobby OR industry. The industry will change (already is changing). Its the grognards who can't deal with change who will die off. The new generations will have no problem with the switch, they are already being prepped by life itself to fit the new age.


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## buzz (Jul 11, 2005)

PJ-Mason said:
			
		

> Even the cost for printing out a pdf in your paper is usually cheaper than buying full price print books. Or even using the print service that most pdf publishers are using (or dabbling in) is cheaper. Frankly being able to print things yourself is an advantage that most gamers hesitant about pdf industry don't acknowledge yet. But many eventually will and all the little kiddies growing up on computers from a young age won't think twice about it.



Still, you have to go somewhere and have it printed, and the binding will likely not be up the quality of a good book. For me, that's a little less "good" than a traditional book.

Of course, I can't cut-and-paste into my GM ntoes from a book...


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## ShinHakkaider (Jul 11, 2005)

buzz said:
			
		

> Still, you have to go somewhere and have it printed, and the binding will likely not be up the quality of a good book. For me, that's a little less "good" than a traditional book.
> 
> Of course, I can't cut-and-paste into my GM ntoes from a book...




Yeah but not for nothing there are books that I've bought from my LGS in the past where the binding was pretty weak. I know that that's not true in MOST cases but I dont mind the printing and coil binding of PDF books. I have a printed and coil version of Green Ronin's Advanced Beastiary, Advanced Gamemaster's Guide and Advanced Player's Manual and they've done me better than if I'd shelled out for the hardbacks. I like being able to lay those books down flat not to mention I can write in them without worrying about devaluing them. And In case something happens to them (like them getting destroyed or lost) I can always siply reprint them as opposed to having to buy new copies.
And before anyoone brings this up, yes, my PDF's are backed up several times over on about 3 different HD's and 2 DVD's so I'm not really worried about losing my data...


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## HinterWelt (Jul 11, 2005)

Let me tell you a story.

There once was a game store owner. he ran two stores in very different locations. He made his living selling WOD, DND and other RPGs along with Miniatures games (mostly Battletech). All was going well and he went to a trade show called the GAMA Trade Show in New Orleans. He saw a new thing called a Collectable Card Game. 

"Wow," he exclaimed, "This is going to be big". He had just had a demo and one of his elder peers leaned close.

"Don't worry kid, " he confided, " its just like POGS. Here today, gone tomorrow." Unconvinced, the young retailer went to the retailer one-on-one where the heads of the Company were talking with the Retailers. 

The President of the corporation stated, "Don't worry, there will always be enough product since we will never sell to the Big Chains." They were not convinced.

Within six months, the Company was selling to major chains and shortages were rampant. Small shops that had built their fan base could no longer get product. The Big Chains were selling to the small stores' customer base. Then the Internet was born! Discounters roamed cyber space stealing customers. The end was near, hell, the apocalypse was apon us! 

You know what, those who could not adapt died off. 

Th moral to the slightly toungue in cheek story above, change is inevitable. RPGs may be a part of that change or they may not. A lot f what we are seeing has happened before. CCG take off actually killed a few stores but the Pokemon crash killed far more. You know what, stores rose to take their place. I am not trying to say this will be an easy time but things are changing and changing in ways that a lot of very experienced people in the Industry seem to be blind to. PDFs, CCGs, Collectible minis, the nature of the internet and a dozen other things I am sure I am missing.   


An aside to the Minnesota gamers. Some have mentioned the Source and Phoenix. Has anyone checked out Phantasy in Shakopee, Village Games in Anoka or Unicorn Games in Woodbury? I am a big fan of Village Games. I have noticed some of the problems mentioned in this thread with the Source. I am mostly indifferent to them I have tried to run demos there but to no avail as they are crowded.

Bill


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## Mark Chance (Jul 11, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> Then a bunch of people who buy online defend online sales, as if they felt guilty about it and needed to justify it to themselves.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Jul 11, 2005)

*Huh, that's funny ...*

I wonder if the staff at my FLGS have been reading this thread.

For the record, I live in Northern Virginia - my FLGS is the Game Parlor in Woodbridge, VA, which is the second store opened by the owner of the original in ... somewhere around Herndon, I think.

Anyway, I'd been there several times in the past, mostly to pick up things like dice, or a particular miniature, or something else small, specific, and needed-now.

The other day, with my normally 3.5 group, we played a little Pirates of the _____*, a collectible card game in which you actually build 3D models of your ships from the plastic cards.  I had a blast.

So, yesterday, I went in to the Game Parlor and asked about buying some ship cards of my own.  The gentleman at the counter - name of Chris, whom I'd dealt with before - welcomed my wife and me into the store, asked if we had any questions, pointed us to their collection of Pot__ cards, and then greeted the next group coming in.  

The store's soundtrack consisted of classical music, sci-fi / fantasy soundtracks, and the excited buzz of the miniatures games and RPG players in the well-lit, clean back.

When we'd decided on what we wanted, he brought them over to the register so we could continue shopping, pointed out the Card Coffins designed by a local group (Cheese Weasel Logistics) for carrying Pirates and Magic cards around, told us about the new Wednesday night Pirates gaming, and invited us to join the store's "Frequent Buyer" reward program.

For only the price of my immortal soul - and some contact info - I gain 5% store credit on every (pre-tax) dollar I spend, which can be applied to any future purchase I make.

We discussed the game - and how his girlfriend coopted all his British ships, making him switch nationalities, the exorbitant rates of MMORPGs, and other trivia, I paid for my purchases, and I left.

It was one of the friendliest, most professional, encounters I've ever had in an LGS - F or otherwise.

It's good to see that some GSs are doing their part to keep their industry alive.

* There are three sets in current circulation:  Pirates of the Spanish Main, Pirates of the Crimson Coast, and Pirates of the Revolution.

EDIT: Grammar.

EDIT: Darnit!  50 / 50 shot on Shore vs. Coast.  I couldn't remember which!


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## lgburton (Jul 11, 2005)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> The other day, with my normally 3.5 group, we played a little Pirates of the _____*, a collectible card game in which you actually build 3D models of your ships from the plastic cards. I had a blast.
> 
> * There are three sets in current circulation: Pirates of the Spanish Main, Pirates of the Crimson Shore, and Pirates of the Revolution.
> 
> EDIT: Grammar.




i might suggest a second edit:
Pirates of the Crimson Coast, not "crimson shore" 

the only problem i have with playing that game is this: like all collectable games, the entire gameplay issue comes down to who can spend more money. and that's just boring, in the long run.


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## Gareman (Jul 12, 2005)

*What's going to happen*

As a gamer and a store owner, I'm unhappy with the current situation. RPG's are why I opened my store, and now I see no reason to support the many RPG's I have in stock. I can tell you exactly what I'm planning as a result of RPG malaise and low sales. 

First, D20 is dead, so unless there's a compelling product, don't expect to find it in the store. Those D20 items that I order will be treated like magazines -- sell them for a few weeks and then don't re-order them. As an industry, I expect this will mean lack of innovation as smaller publishers disappear, so I'm hoping you like what Wizards of the Coast is publishing, because it's going back to the old days, where that was your only choice.

Second, most non-D&D games are done. There are many systems out there, but I'll keep the 5 or so that sell well and drop all the others. Those White Wolf pseudo-gamers can complain all they want about the new World of Darkness-- at home, because lack of sales is driving those books of my store. 

Third, all that new space I have will go to those who support their local game stores, notably, collectible (paintable) miniature gamers. My racks of RPG products will soon be replaced by Flames of War, Warmachine and Confrontation. 

As a businessman, I'm not going to ask you to spend money with me because it's morally correct. You either find me a useful resource (an added value) or you don't need me and you'll buy online. Go do that. But don't expect to find your game supported at my store. No dice for you, unless their D6.


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## JohnNephew (Jul 12, 2005)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> Also, The Source is actually owned by the same company that also owns Fantasy Flight Games, and Atlas Games.  It's a holding company called Trident Inc.




Hi!  It's great to hear so much praise of my FLGS, The Source, but I thought I should step in to clear up some information.

Atlas Games is formally organized as Trident, Inc.  "Atlas Games" is a registered DBA (a business alias, if you will).

Originally, Atlas Games was a sole proprietorship -- me.  When I needed investment to help do a CCG, more than a decade ago, I went to one of the finest retailers in the country with my idea -- The Source Comics & Games (formally organized as Adventure Retail Ltd.).  We formed a new corporation (Trident) to publish On the Edge CCG.  The partnership went so well that we ultimately folded all my old Atlas Games operations into the new entity.

So the simple way to put this is: The Source is a shareholder in Atlas Games.  (I am the other one.)  We also take full advantage of their retailing expertise -- the staff of the Source runs our booths at all the major game conventions.

Neither The Source nor Atlas Games owns or is owned by Fantasy Flight Games.  We are all on great terms, and have collaborated business in various ways over the years (we even used to share office/warehouse space!), but there is no cross-ownership.

-John Nephew
President, Atlas Games


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jul 12, 2005)

JohnNephew said:
			
		

> Neither The Source nor Atlas Games owns or is owned by Fantasy Flight Games.  We are all on great terms, and have collaborated business in various ways over the years (we even used to share office/warehouse space!), but there is no cross-ownership.



This must be the source of the misunderstanding (the sharing of office/warehouse space) from the person who told me all three were one big happy corporate family. 

Glad to be corrected!


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## GVDammerung (Jul 12, 2005)

amazingshafeman said:
			
		

> I searched every store in the Twin Cities for the Dungeon issue with the final Greyhawk map. Everyone was out. The Source specifically told me they wouldn't carry Paizo's products because they advertise the online store. They would order them for me, but wouldn't "waste shelf space advertising competitors." They still had OLD issues, but weren't getting new ones in.
> 
> Mccrow has indicated they now have both titles. Perhaps the employee was wrong. Perhaps the policy changed. Perhaps Mccrow only saw old issues on the shelf that haven't sold yet. The above is just my experience.





Similar experience.  Different outcome.  For me it was a scavenger hunt for the 1st GH map issue.  Then, I just special ordered from the Source.  Had them within a week of when Paizo said they had shipped to subscribers.  I thought that outstanding service.

At the time, the Source was not carrying Paizo products because of the ad circulars and the Paizo web store, I asked Beryl, the manager.  Since that time, they have started carrying Paizo products again.

To each their own, but the Source is the finest game store I have even shopped.  Practically full line of game products.  Special orders as necessary but rarely over a week until delivery.  Discount (10% w/ card) on both in store and special orders.  Knowledgeable staff.  Very friendly, my wife and I are greeted by name (but then we're in there every week).  No hasseles if, after an hour brousing, we buy nothing - and that happens sometimes for 3 weeks in a row or so.  Staff will even commiserate that "its a slow week/month for new releases."  Two game sales every year with HUGE discounts, one of which is the store birthday party with cake, drinks, hotdogs etc. plus prize drawings - all FREE.  Special events - 30th D&D featured some guy named Monte Cook (nice guy, even if I don't buy everything with his name on it just because it has his name on it), another guy named Dave Arneson (another nice guy) has also been featured and MAR Barker (didn't meet him), if memory serves.  Regular tournaments for practically everything.  Game space.  

Also sells comics, anime, some fiction and fantasy books, SF/Fantasy videos.

Won't tell you your business but you might consider giving the Source another chance.

I support the Source because it offers a social dynamic for gamers to interact with gamers face to face, in my area (Twin Cities Metro), on a daily/weekly basis.  

I do not game in the store as a general rule, as I prefer a quieter atmosphere in which to DM.  

When a game store like the Source goes the extra mile that is worth something to me and I will pay more by shopping there than I could buying from Amazon etc.  Its all about what you want and what you get for your dollar.

IMO


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## Dristram (Jul 12, 2005)

*From a game store owner and a gamer*

I’ve debated on chiming in or not, but since Gary did, I guess I will.  I’ve been an RPGer since 1983.  I had fanciful dreams of some day being able to open my own game store and make a living at it.  When I got laid off from my engineering job in 2003, I took that opportunity to do just that.  Since I am a role-player, I wanted my game store to be focused on RPGs.  I filled my store with them as much as I could and got more and more as I could afford to.  As it is, all my love of RPGs hasn’t made them my main product, which is disappointing.  RPGs make up 25% of my inventory, but only 17% of my sales.  On the other hand, CCGs make up only 5% of my inventory, but 21% of my sales!  That is amazing!  I wanted to open a game store mainly to sell RPGs, but found myself quickly turning into a card shop.  As much as I tried to get more sales from RPGs, the competition from mainly on-line stores defeated me.  Instead of me being viewed as someone supporting the hobby and providing RPGs to sell, I’ve been seen by some as “ripping them off” by selling at “full retail”.  This has been very disappointing to me.  And hearing comments by some on this thread has disheartened me.  I believe if it wasn’t for on-line stores, existing game stores would be fully stocked with RPGs, and there would be many more game stores to choose from.   But such is not the case, and it’s looking at getting worse.  In order for game stores to survive, they find themselves grasping onto the big sellers like CCGs, Clix games, and even Comics.  And in some stores like Gary's, the RPGs start getting pushed aside for what makes money.  RPGers get turned off by a lack of focus on RPGs, but it’s either the stores make that change, or close shop.

Some say a game store could compete with on-line stores or the Wal-marts of the world, if they offered a discount.  But that’s not as effective as it sounds.  If a store offered a flat 20% discount on RPGs, they’d have to sell over double the number of RPG products, just to make a little more than without the discount.  Just doubling sales with such a discount is unheard of.  Game stores that sell at full retail are not getting rich off of gamers.  They are not ripping gamers off.  They are selling at the price to pay the bills.  Good game stores keep doing what they are doing thinking that gamers want them around.  Game stores that discount are doing so at the risk of putting their store out of business.  For them, I would hasten to guess that RPG sales don’t make up much of their overall sales to begin with so a discount on RPGs doesn’t make much of a difference on their bottom-line.  There is nothing wrong with paying full retail.  It’s a price that is set to make sure the manufacturer gets the money they need to pay the bills, and for the distributor to get what they need to pay the bills, and then finally for the retail store to get what it needs to pay the bills.  When a retail store is forced to discount, *they* are the only ones being hurt.  The manufacturers and distributors got their money.  And the customer got a good deal.  But the retail store then worries about paying their bills.  The “big” stores have the fortune to be able to purchase the product at the cost distributors get it for, thus being able to sell at a much lower price, and still keep the lights on.

I am in full agreement that if a game store is not a “Friendly” game store, then by all means, don’t support them.  Let them go away and make room for a good game store to spring up.  Just because it’s a game store doesn’t mean gamers should support them.  But if you’re a gamer that likes going to a store that is dedicated your hobby, support them or they *will* go away.  I don’t want to see that happen, well, I guess because that will mean me loosing my store, but mainly because I absolutely love the feeling I get walking into a store and being surrounded by all kinds of RPGs and other hobby games.  And also knowing I have something in common with every customer in the store.  Shopping for RPGs at Wal-mart, book stores, or on-line, just doesn’t do it for me personally.  So, I for one, do not want to see game stores go away.

I appreciated and supported my local game stores before getting laid off, and now after opening my own game store, I have a renewed appreciation for them.

(-Brad
Owner, Gamer's Keepe
Vacaville, CA


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 12, 2005)

> Honestly, I find it very difficult to fault people for making decisions based on price. That's pretty much how we buy just about eveyrthing else. How many people here will pay more for, say, gasoline in order to patronize a particular seller, barring some perk program?




I don't fault decisions made on price- I fault decisions made SOLEY for price.  For most things I buy, I consider price, location, customer service- everything that goes into the shopping experience...but then again, I'm an MBA/JD. I try to look at the big picture whenever I make a major purchase, or when deciding which stores deserve my continued patronage.  Take Wal-Mart, for example.

I have nothing against the company, per se- there's a lot of good to be said for delivering a wide variety of goods affordably.  However, they are being investigated in several states for paying such low wages that a large percentage of their employees are on welfare- its estimated that Wal-Mart employees cost California over $2B in welfare expenditures.  And, not are they underpaying their employees, they also use their market power like a club.  Not only do they overbuild in an area to drive out all competition (and then close a couple of stores to restore profitability), they also order certain lower-quality products exclusively for their chain.  For example-if you are shopping for a "Bob's Electronix Portable CD player Model MX11," you may be able to find a "Bob's Electronix Portable CD player Model MX11-W" on Wal-Mart shelves...and its going to be both cheaper than anywhere else...AND it will be made of less durable and dependable parts.

As for gas- I HAVE paid more for gas when I felt a particular company was being a little more lax in its environmental policies or if the station made my shopping experience better or worse than normal...but then again, I'm a black guy in the South who also used to be member of Greenpeace.  I guarantee you that I'm going to pay more for gas when the discounter down my street has "My Wife Ran Away with a Ni**er" blaring on the store PA system (true story, BTW).


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## Boojum (Jul 12, 2005)

This thread has gotten me thinking about and trying to analyze my own buying habits.  The way that I look at it (subconsciously until just now) is that each purchase I make (not limited to gaming) is made because the value or utility to me of _making that purchase_ exceeds the utility that I get from the money in my pocket.  The product itself is the biggest contributor to the value that I get from the purchase, but other factors like comfort, convenience, speed, and so on also play a part, as does my own knowledge of who is getting my money.  As several other people have said, a game store that offers other intangible benefits makes up for spending a few extra dollars.  However, a bad store is not worth supporting simply because it is a game store.  

This isn't limited to game stores either, as other places that display trends that I want to reward are more likely to get my money.  I was at a Barnes and Noble the other day, and bought a couple packs of D&D miniatures and the new Warhammer FRP.  One of the main reasons for this is that someone at this particular location has obviously put some thought, effort, and research into this section of the store, as it is well-stocked, with wide aisles, very accessible (right next to the cafe section) rather than tucked away in a corner somewhere, and has a couple of shelves and a spinning rack displaying books from the front rather than just packing them on the shelves with only the spine visible.  Also, the fact that they went beyond just WotC and WW by offering stuff by GR and some other publishers was impressive.  All of this is behavior that I would like to see be profitable and so be sustained and spread to other stores, so I rewarded it by spending money there.  I think that this sort of section has every chance of helping grow the hobby.  Someone noted above that the FLGS can nurture new gamers, but can't create them.  I agree, since if you take a potential gamer who would be receptive to the game but is not actively pursuing it, they are unlikely to ever step into a game store.  However, it seems much more likely to me that such a person could be in a B&N, walk by a display and be intrigued by a cover or title, and take a closer look.   By contrast, when I am at another location that has the bare minimum (1/2 shelf of WotC releases in a corner of the sci-fi section), I wouldn't buy a book there even if they had one that I wanted.  

Admittedly, part of the reason that I am so willing to do that is because I haven't found a FLGS that I like since moving to Orange County.  Even if I had, though, I think that increasing availability and visibility in traditional retail outlets is at least as worth supporting as the FLGS.  As a number of people have noted, the FLGS does offer knowledgeable staff, gaming space, and so on, and are very helpful in bringing someone further into the hobby once their interest is piqued.  In an ideal world, we'd have both of these, but I think that the initial exposure may well be more important to the growth of the hobby as a whole, since finding other players, product advice, and so on, is pretty easily done on the internet once you decide to look for it.

All things considered, I probably spend the biggest chunk of my gaming budget at Legends, the FLGS that I grew up with in San Jose, but it's not very often that I get up there anymore.  The next biggest chunk goes to the ENworld online store, followed by everything else.  By all means think about where your money is going, but there are valid reasons for supporting institutions other than FLGSs.


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## Glyfair (Jul 12, 2005)

Boojum said:
			
		

> Someone noted above that the FLGS can nurture new gamers, but can't create them.  I agree, since if you take a potential gamer who would be receptive to the game but is not actively pursuing it, they are unlikely to ever step into a game store.




Maybe.  I know the main store in the area has created gamers.  They are on the main street of a college town.  In addition to gaming, they carry related products including fantasy "gift items."  A lot of people stop by to look at the gift items (ceramic dragons, fairies and the like) and ask about the gaming stuff.  Some eventually dip into the gaming pool.


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## Belen (Jul 12, 2005)

Dristram said:
			
		

> I appreciated and supported my local game stores before getting laid off, and now after opening my own game store, I have a renewed appreciation for them.
> 
> (-Brad
> Owner, Gamer's Keepe
> Vacaville, CA




Brad:  A lot of us are with you.  I make sure to run at least two RPG events through my FLGS/month.  I have found that just getting people to visit the store has made a difference.  Also, I have noticed that a lot of people come to these sessions because they have no regular group and have not been able to make time for one.  They do not always buy stuff, but I have noticed that the RPG section is picking up.

I do not think that a lot of posters on this thread have any clue about what is happening behind the scenes.  It seems that a lot of younger people are ONLY concerned about price and feel that there will be some type of business around to "serve" them no matter what happens.

They are wrong.

And, I have just received word that Star Wars d20 is officially dead.  No more products are planned and all support for the game is finished.  The SW d20 game has been completely replaced by the Star Wars Miniatures game.

I wonder what those people buying from Amazon will say when D&D moves to a collectable miniatures game with no RPG support.

Wizards makes a lot of money off there minis line and stores have no trouble selling them.


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## Kanegrundar (Jul 12, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> And, I have just received word that Star Wars d20 is officially dead.  No more products are planned and all support for the game is finished.  The SW d20 game has been completely replaced by the Star Wars Miniatures game.
> 
> I wonder what those people buying from Amazon will say when D&D moves to a collectable miniatures game with no RPG support.
> 
> Wizards makes a lot of money off there minis line and stores have no trouble selling them.




Belen, start a new thread about this, as I really want to ask you some questions about that.

Kane


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## GlassJaw (Jul 12, 2005)

> I do not think that a lot of posters on this thread have any clue about what is happening behind the scenes. It seems that a lot of younger people are ONLY concerned about price and feel that there will be some type of business around to "serve" them no matter what happens.




LOL, trust me, I know _exactly_ what's "happening" behind the scenes.

And who's "young"?  I'm 29 and yeah, most of my purchases are based _solely_ on price (most of the time).

I hate to repeat myself but I feel so inclined for emphasis.

No other business (outside of a few hobbies) counts on the kindness of the public's heart to keep them in business.  The store owners that have chimed in have discussed the reasons why RPG products are sold at full retail and I completely understand why.  However, I don't see any discussion on why customers (other than a select few in here) feel that buying online and saving some money is worth more than paying full retail at a LGS.  Their LGS must not be giving them any reasons to pay the extra money and buy the the product at the store.

If people feel that saving money by buying online is worth more than what their LGS offers, how can they be faulted?  Remember, the customer is always right.  The online retailers have found a better business model.  Right or wrong, that's the nature of business.  Why don't some of the retailers give their customers reasons of shopping at their store instead of complaining about the state of the industry.  Yes, it sucks.  It sucks that gaming stores have to sell CCG or that some stores close altogether.  Is it going to stop?  Absolutely not.  

I offered some ideas earlier in the thread but still all I see is people complaining.  Whatever.  I don't lose any sleep by shopping online.


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## Belen (Jul 12, 2005)

Kanegrundar said:
			
		

> Belen, start a new thread about this, as I really want to ask you some questions about that.
> 
> Kane




I will try, but I do not want to cause too much trouble.


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## Kanegrundar (Jul 12, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> I will try, but I do not want to cause too much trouble.



 Well, you can't just come out with something like that and then walk away.  Even if it is something that most (if not all) SWD20 fans have suspected for a long time now.

Kane


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## Marchen (Jul 12, 2005)

I used to have a FLGS. Unfortunatley for me, it closed down this past January. 

My gaming schedule hasn't really suffered. I play regularly, twice a week now with the same DM that I used to play with in-store (he was the owner). That's more than I was playing while the store was open. Of course, I still miss the store. It was a nice place to play, and I was able to buy gaming items other than just RPG books there. Without the FLGS as a gaming hub, I haven't done much wargaming or modeling at all in the past few months.

There is another good store, but it's about 20 minutes away from me. I still drive out there a couple times a month and get some things from them. Other times I buy my D&D books from bookstores like Barnes & Noble's, or the Waldenbooks in the mall (which carries a surprisingly large stock of them). Wouldn't you know it, I end up paying the same price no matter where I go. Unless I was to order online, everywhere charges cover price.


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## Belen (Jul 12, 2005)

Kanegrundar said:
			
		

> Well, you can't just come out with something like that and then walk away.  Even if it is something that most (if not all) SWD20 fans have suspected for a long time now.
> 
> Kane




Here you go: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=139555


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## wedgeski (Jul 12, 2005)

(Have only read the first 2 pages, so please ignore me if someone has made this point.)

I would like to counter the implied notion that online retailers are any less friendly or knowledgeable than the person behind the counter at your LGS.

It's been my experience that small, specialised on-liners are extremely friendly, communicative, and insightful about their industry. I have yet to encounter a small e-tailer that hasn't bent over backwards to make my shopping experience a good one, or fallen over themselves in freebie-laden apology when something goes wrong. In that sense, I get everything that I personally would look for in a LGS, except for the ability to browse a book before I buy, for which I rely on reviews and recommendations. I get all that, with the added bonus that I don't have to step into a store where the air is so thick with teenaged body odour that I have to swim rather than walk to the D&D shelf to get what I want. (One of many cliches that were unfortunately true for my LGS.)

Obviously this doesn't apply to large bulk-sellers like Amazon, and honestly I probably pay the same premium from my Friendly Remote On-line Gaming Store compared to them, but I do it for the service, and the ability to have a quick email with the owner of the store before I buy anything.

Plus, you can actually *say* FROGS. That's gotta count for something.


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## PJ-Mason (Jul 12, 2005)

buzz said:
			
		

> Still, you have to go somewhere and have it printed, and the binding will likely not be up the quality of a good book. For me, that's a little less "good" than a traditional book.
> 
> Of course, I can't cut-and-paste into my GM ntoes from a book...




Well, no. RPGNOW has its own print service that their publishers can use so that their customers can get a pdf, CD, or print book of the product in question. I haven't gotten any print books with that service, but the people who use that service seem to be quite happy with it.


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## PJ-Mason (Jul 12, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> I do not think that a lot of posters on this thread have any clue about what is happening behind the scenes.




Having worked at a game store, i do. 



			
				BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> It seems that a lot of younger people are ONLY concerned about price and feel that there will be some type of business around to "serve" them no matter what happens. They are wrong.




I must say that i think your are totally wrong here, my friend. There always will be a business to serve their gaming needs. It just may not be a LGS, or it won't be one that fits the stereotype of your typical LGS. But the eventual evolution of the LGS is probably a whole nuther thread!   



			
				BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> And, I have just received word that Star Wars d20 is officially dead.  No more products are planned and all support for the game is finished.  The SW d20 game has been completely replaced by the Star Wars Miniatures game.




I thought it was already dead? Or maybe its was just rumors that i had been hearing that let up to this official death.



			
				BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> I wonder what those people buying from Amazon will say when D&D moves to a collectable miniatures game with no RPG support..




Amazon didn't kill D20 Starwars. D20 Starwar's insane prices killed them. They were selling books that cost more than market average for books thar were sized under market average. People were gonna buy that nonsense forever. I know all about the "Geez, the Starwars license is real expensive" arguement as well. Thats too bad, but if you can't sell a reasonably priced game because of a license, then don't do it. Maybe they came to that realization themselves. 

I have no super-love for Amazon, but i don't blame them for things that are not their fault. In fact, ironically, a lot of fans of the D20 Starwars line were required to go to places like Amazon to get a *reasonable* price!


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## Gentlegamer (Jul 12, 2005)

Hey, can West End Games have the Star Wars license back?


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## PJ-Mason (Jul 12, 2005)

Gentlegamer said:
			
		

> Hey, can West End Games have the Star Wars license back?




Only if they revise their Jedi power mechanics.


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## HeapThaumaturgist (Jul 12, 2005)

I've come to the conclusion that Star Wars as an RPG is an unholy wooly bugger if there ever was one.  

I want to say that part of the reason the d20 line died is that they never got it "right enough".  Nothing's ever perfect, but the "Revised" book was an entirely different game and even that needs to be heavily patched in most cases.  Add to that expensive and ... dunno.  

I think more FLGS need to be Non-Gamer Friendly, personally.  I'm a gamer.  I'm a geek.  But I don't LIKE going into most game stores.  It seems that the average gaming store is located in a low-rent shopping district about 30 years old, 20 years of which have been spent needing a paint job.  The (usual) single plate window is so covered with advert posters and mural paintings that little to no light escapes into the store.  The store footprint is small for a speciality shop to begin with, and then they try to pack 3-4 large tables in to give gamers a place to play.  The glass counter/register area is where the minis/ccgs are and are usually clogged with shoppers, making checking out difficult.  The cramped conditions make browsing difficult.  The small quarters mean everybody in the store is talking over themselves and, on the whole, the situation comes across as a dirty little store full of yelling people blocking the way to whatever it is I might want to buy.  That's about 5 out of 6 stores.

There's alot of REASONS for those conditions, but y'know where I spend more time reading RPG books and have BOUGHT more RPG books recently?  Barnes and Noble.  The 'local' B&N here has a VERY thriving fantasy atmosphere ... presentations, talks, and seminars by local authors and fantasy authors, a reading section in the middle of the sci-fi/fantasy area, a pretty hefty selection of books by about the top 6 or so RPG  producers, including, last time I was there, RPGO's Blood and Space (which I ALMOST picked up, but had just bought movie tickets and was a little light in the back pocket).  

I think the "gaming" store is dying ... but the "geek chic" store might be taking off.  I've been in a few game stores that almost had it right.  An okay shop in suburban Sacramento CA (forget the name) had one of the best selections of games, RPGs, collectibles, toys, comics, etc that I've run across.  We spent at least 200 bucks in there over the last two vacations I've taken to visit my in-laws.  The thing I'd most change in that place would be a little decor ... try to make the general appearance of the store more attractive ... and by the RPGs they had 2 old 6' tables and a collection of mismatched chairs, ostensibly for gaming, but I never saw anybody gaming there the times I was in there and mostly it was browsers stealing a spot to sit and read for a bit, including myself.  If they moved the tables somewhere else and added some chairs ... no need for really expensive ones, just chairs that say:  "We welcome you sitting and hanging out for a while." that would have probably sold me 2-3 more game books.  As it was my wife was uncomfortable standing around twiddling her thumbs while I paged through books and I got drug out by the collar rather quickly.  If she had somewhere that I could sit her down and put a comic in her hands for a while ... (got the wife hooked on comics, woo!), well, that would've allowed me the time I needed to spend more money there.

EDIT:  Which is also what I do at B&N ... so B&N has sold us several trade paperbacks over the last few years as well, when I couldn't get her to relinquish her precious so I could buy my own.

--fje


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## buzz (Jul 12, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> I wonder what those people buying from Amazon will say when D&D moves to a collectable miniatures game with no RPG support.



I'm still not seeing any clear connection here. One RPG line _supposedly_ gets canceled, and that means D&D, the RPG that created a brand that makes millions of dollars in multiple media is suddenly doomed? And it's also Amazon's fault?

Consumers are allowed to shop for price when the received/perceived value is the same. This whole idea that people "caring only about price" are doing something wrong is just nuts.

The market is changing. That's life. It doesn't mean RPGs are going to vanish into a black hole. The FLGS becomes the FOGS, the meatspace community becomes augmented by the cybespace community, printing and distributiuon technology evolves, etc. As long as humans have brains and continue to be social animals, gaming will exist.


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## Arashi Ravenblade (Jul 12, 2005)

Star wars had insane prices, one of the game shops i go to cant move them and he cant lower them, so there they sit. i dont care if it is an expensive lisence, Mr. Lucas need to not be so greedy and try and gut his faithful fans (especially after 2 horrendous prequals and one fairly descent one).

WOTC books are too expensive as it is. alot of people i know (though not enough to put a dent in there sales) wont even touch a WOTC product bc of the price, so if they dont buy from Amazon or some similar store WOTC still doesnt get money, if  they buy from discount online places WOTC still gets there money and games keep coming out as opposed to higher prices and no one buying and the product stopping outright.

Sorry but im not going to spend more money to keep someone in business, your not going to spend 5 bucks on gas because you know the people or like what the people offer who own the gas station when you can get if from joe smoe down the road for 2.50 or less.

Come thanksgiving your not going to spend  2.5 a lb on a turkey when you can get it for a 1 a lb at the major retail chain.

Your not going to spend 800 a month on rent in a tiny little apartment when you can rent one of the same quality accross town for 600.

Your not going to keep your phone provider that charges you a dollar for long distance when you can pay a solid 20 a month no matter your long distance.

Its all about competition and in this country if you cant compete you go out of business, i want to own my own game shop but realisticly i would go under in a year or less i realise that, i know i cant compete with 23 dollar book that i would have to sell for 40.


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## GlassJaw (Jul 12, 2005)

> It seems that the average gaming store is located in a low-rent shopping district about 30 years old, 20 years of which have been spent needing a paint job...<snip>




Wow, that's description was spot-on.  I definitely agree about the 5 out 6 ratio as well.

Great post overall Heap.  You have some good ideas about what gaming stores need to become to survive.  Again, I've mentioned some ideas in this thread but complaining about things that aren't going to change in the industry seems to be the order of the day.




> Your not going




It's "you're" in this case.  You did it a few times and I failed my Will save so I had to.


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## Rykion (Jul 12, 2005)

Arashi Ravenblade said:
			
		

> Come thanksgiving your not going to spend 2.5 a lb on a turkey when you can get it for a 1 a lb at the major retail chain.
> 
> Your not going to spend 800 a month on rent in a tiny little apartment when you can rent one of the same quality accross town for 600.




Most of the things you list are living expenses for most people rather than luxuries.  They are not good comparisons to buying games.

I do go to a turkey farm and spend more money on a quality turkey for Thanksgiving.  I might pay 200 more for an apartment if the location were more convenient for work or closer to the places I shop.

Service is part of the purchase price of a good.  If a store provides good service and a reasonable price, I will shop there.  I have repeatedly had poor service from some major online retailers, and only choose those retailers as a last resort.


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## wingsandsword (Jul 12, 2005)

Okay folks, the d20 Star Wars line is *not* officially dead.  There has been no mysterious announcement, no press release of cancellation (for those who haven't checked the separate thread on it).  At most was a brief statement to vendors saying nothing planned for the rest of the year (the next 5 months, which is about how far WotC already posts their schedules).  They still do regular web columns (Jedi Counseling, series like Dark Forces Saga or Byss and the Deep Core, RPG stats for minis characters), Minis books are coming out with RPG stats (the Revenge of the Sith scenario book had about 6 pages of RPG stats for movie characters).  It isn't exactly shining and happy, but it's not over.

With the SWRPG being, at least once, the #2 RPG in the industry, ahead of White Wolf, I really doubt it was not living up to any reasonable expectations of sales (look at what Vampire did for White Wolf, Star Wars was drawing more than that).  Lucasfilm was no stranger to RPG licensing, they dealt with West End Games for a decade and knew how it sold (and they certainly knew the approval process and the material going into the games, when Timothy Zahn was writing the Thrawn trilogy, they literally delivered a crate of RPG books to him to use as background).

To keep this FLGS topical: as for saying they were overpriced and your FLGS couldn't move them, they cost only marginally more than comparable D&D books, and my local FLGS (The Rusty Scabbard, Lexington KY) can't keep them in stock.  They regularly have to reorder/special order books for people, and sometimes the books are sold out at the distributor, leading people to go online and buy them, sometimes at inflated rates on eBay (a thread on the d20 board said people are paying over $50 for the Power of the Jedi book).  I literally bump into new people starting SWRPG campaigns often now, including people who are upset they can't get ahold of books they want.  Ever since Episode III came out, I've seen a huge upswing in interest in the RPG, and WotC really seems to have dropped the ball.


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## was (Jul 12, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> I do not think that a lot of posters on this thread have any clue about what is happening behind the scenes.  It seems that a lot of younger people are ONLY concerned about price and feel that there will be some type of business around to "serve" them no matter what happens.




-I'd have to disagree with you there.  I'll be 32 next month and I am far more concerned about price now than when I was younger.  I've found that as your financial obligations increase, you become more concerned with how you budget your money.  Younger people with less debt, can afford to spend more on non-competitive local shops.  I know that during college, I cared far more about how quickly I could acquire material than whether or not I could buy it cheaper elsewhere.
-My home town has two local shops, neither of which are friendly or competitive.  They never have sales or markdowns of any sort.  While I do appreciate the hidden costs businesses face, I find that very few of these local shops care about the financial situation of their customers.  They're entirely concerned with profit, and from a business standpoint that's good for them.  It does not, however, instill a sense of guilt in me for patronizing on-line merchants.  As long as there is money to be made selling gaming material, some type of business will be around to sell it.


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## HeapThaumaturgist (Jul 12, 2005)

Another note:  The local hobby shop in Auburn, AL, where I was an undergrad, was reasonably non-Friendly, had poor selection, a layout that made it impossible to really browse or even see what they had in stock in the way of RPG books, and most of the floor space was taken up with giant storage units of comic back-issues.  Few people seemed to browse the old comics, more were looking at the new stuff and more people were interested in the CCGs and the like ... but the guy made the main focus of the joint comic back-issues.  That was "his" thing, I guess.  I always felt sort of bad about the "struggling comic and hobby shop" ... until I started to hear from my comics-collector friends that the guy was always trying to buy their collections from them for 1/2 or 1/3 what they could get for them elsewhere or even on EBay, and would attempt to strong-arm people into buying or selling when they went in there just to buy something else.  Then one day I saw a brand-new BMW Roadster come wheeling into the lot as I got there ... and out clambers the owner of the store.  I'm pretty positive there's places he could have stuck 45k in the store to make it a better shopping experience.  And if he could afford a new Beemer, well, I guess his business wasn't really suffering that much.

--fje


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## Dristram (Jul 12, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> <snip> The store owners that have chimed in have discussed the reasons why RPG products are sold at full retail and I completely understand why.  However, I don't see any discussion on why customers (other than a select few in here) feel that buying online and saving some money is worth more than paying full retail at a LGS.  Their LGS must not be giving them any reasons to pay the extra money and buy the the product at the store.
> 
> If people feel that saving money by buying online is worth more than what their LGS offers, how can they be faulted?  <snip> Why don't some of the retailers give their customers reasons of shopping at their store instead of complaining about the state of the industry.  Yes, it sucks.  It sucks that gaming stores have to sell CCG or that some stores close altogether.  Is it going to stop?  Absolutely not.
> 
> I offered some ideas earlier in the thread but still all I see is people complaining.  Whatever.  I don't lose any sleep by shopping online.




I seem to recall several things retailers are doing to try and win back customers like offering free game space or minor discounts.  What do I provide?  I provide a clean and organized game store decorated with cool swords that can be purchased     I have sodas and snacks for sale for $.50 each.  I offer special orders and get the product in within 1-3 days (depending on when the order falls in my order cycle)  What I mainly provide is $1,000/month rent in free gaming areas that a big portion is decorated in medieval style.  I also have an in-store message board for gamers to find other gamers, and also YahooGroups for gamers.  My store is the kind of place where gamers come to socialize in a way similar to sports fans going to their local sports bar to socialize.  The difference is that gaming is the topic of discussion.  And Dew and Doritos are consumed instead of beer and pretzles    I estimate that over 1/2 of my customers are *new* gamers because of my store.  I have worked hard at promoting this hobby.

Even still, many local gamers would rather buy on-line and couldn't care less if I went under.     They think my store is great, but price is king.  Fortunately, for me, I have a very loyal high number of customers who do want to see my store be around and have stopped buying on-line all together.   It looks like that for some, the store I created has made a difference.  But not to all.

(-Brad
Owner, Gamer's Keepe
Vacaville, CA


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## Dristram (Jul 12, 2005)

was said:
			
		

> -I'd have to disagree with you there.  I'll be 32 next month and I am far more concerned about price now than when I was younger.   I've found that as your financial obligations increase, you become more concerned with how you budget your money.  <snip>



I'm 35 and when I was 32, I didn't own a game store and totally agree with you.  But I still managed to support my game store.  How?  I'd buy one RPG book every two months instead of every month.  There are different ways to budget money. 







> <snip> -My home town has two local shops, neither of which are friendly or competitive.



 Well, then they don't sound like very nice game stores.  It's unfortunate you don't have a quality game store in your area.  







> They never have sales or markdowns of any sort.  While I do appreciate the hidden costs businesses face, I find that very few of these local shops care about the financial situation of their customers.



  The good ones do, but unfortunately, there is not much a store can do.  







> They're entirely concerned with profit, and from a business standpoint that's good for them.



  LOL  oh my gawd!  That is funny!  The first thing I was told by veteran game store owners is if you want to get rich, don't open a game store.  Most game stores are concerned with paying the bills, not profit.  Profit is very rare in this business. 

(-Brad
Owner, Gamer's Keepe


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## Rykion (Jul 12, 2005)

I have always stressed service in my posts in this thread.  I agree that stores that never run sales/discount items, are unfriendly, shrink wrap all the books, have no gaming space, or mark-up most of their items are not worth supporting.  

I know of two local stores that have about a dozen gaming tables and take special orders.  The one I frequent gives you a stamp every time you make a purchase of $20 or more and gives you $30 off after 10 stamps.  Old or discontinued items are marked down, usually 50% off.  They will buy back books and miniatures, and have an extensive used section in the store.  You can organize in-store games that go past closing time if you let them know in advance.  The staff doesn't know every game inside and out, but are good at making recommendations.  There is a bulletin board at the front of the store to advertise for new players and start gaming leagues.  I could order online and save a few bucks, but I know that no one online is giving me the same kind of service.


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## Belen (Jul 12, 2005)

was said:
			
		

> -My home town has two local shops, neither of which are friendly or competitive.  They never have sales or markdowns of any sort.  While I do appreciate the hidden costs businesses face, I find that very few of these local shops care about the financial situation of their customers.  They're entirely concerned with profit, and from a business standpoint that's good for them.  It does not, however, instill a sense of guilt in me for patronizing on-line merchants.  As long as there is money to be made selling gaming material, some type of business will be around to sell it.




This is bull.  Some shops cannot afford mark-downs or discounts and still survive.  What you call profit, for some, is putting food on the table.  Now, I know my FLGS does provide discounts and will place older RPGs on sale if they have been on the shelf for 12 months, but that is only so that they do not have to pay taxes on inventory.

And yes, the goverment looks at inventory every year.  Stores get taxed based on the cover price of the inventory, so even if they cannot sell it for full price price because it is an ancient game, they still get taxed as if it was new.


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## GlassJaw (Jul 12, 2005)

> Even still, many local gamers would rather buy on-line and couldn't care less if I went under.




Brad, it sounds like you have a great store and are doing things to attract and keep your customer base.  Kudos to you.  Unfortunately, I think the large percentage of LGS aren't up to the level that yours sounds.

So if I'm ever in Vacaville, CA, I'll be sure to stop by.


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## Dristram (Jul 12, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> Brad:  A lot of us are with you.



Those positive posts on supporting the good game stores has been very good to see.  It shows me there is still hope for traditional game stores  

(-Brad
Owner, Gamer's Keepe
Vacaville, CA


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## was (Jul 12, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> This is bull.  Some shops cannot afford mark-downs or discounts and still survive.  What you call profit, for some, is putting food on the table.  Now, I know my FLGS does provide discounts and will place older RPGs on sale if they have been on the shelf for 12 months, but that is only so that they do not have to pay taxes on inventory.
> 
> And yes, the goverment looks at inventory every year.  Stores get taxed based on the cover price of the inventory, so even if they cannot sell it for full price price because it is an ancient game, they still get taxed as if it was new.




1.) How is it bull?  I made a simple statement of fact.  These two stores don't offer any markdowns or discounts.  Whether or not you agree with that practice, the simple fact that they don't is not a disputable fact.
2.) The owners of these stores are not the only ones that have to buy food and pay bills.  $35-$40 dollars is very costly for a single book.  I'd rather not be faced with the choice of buying either groceries or a game book. 
3.) Although I don't know how the taxes argument arose since it wasn't in my post, I've never disputed the hidden costs of running a business.  However, hardworking consumers  also pay taxes.  I lose over 28% of my income in taxes every year, further limiting my purchasing power.  Hence, I am not very sympathetic towards this point in your argument.
4.)  I've easily spent thousands of dollars at local shops in the past because I believe in supporting the local economy.  I just cannot afford to do it anymore.  I don't make a lot of money and I simply have too much debt to shop at a non-competitive, not to mention unfriendly, shop.  My budget is simply too tight.  When I can afford to be more free with my income, I will. 
-The fact that you and others here, want gaming consumers to recognize the plight of 
struggling small businesses is laudable.  Just don't forget the fact that many of the people you are trying to convice are struggling to make ends meet as well.


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## Dristram (Jul 12, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> Brad, it sounds like you have a great store and are doing things to attract and keep your customer base.  Kudos to you.  Unfortunately, I think the large percentage of LGS aren't up to the level that yours sounds.




Now to that I will agree.  I will tell you that there is a movement in the hobby game industry to create quality game stores.  That is a good after-effect of the competition of on-line and "big-box" stores.  One way game stores are adapting is they are offering more as a store.  The typical game store is moving away from the dark, smelly, hole-in-the-wall way of old, and moving into a more mainstream look and service offered.  It's a move that I hope gets rewarded and nurtured by gamers instead of ignored.



> So if I'm ever in Vacaville, CA, I'll be sure to stop by.




Awesome.  Do let me know who ya are if you do   

(-Brad
Owner, Gamer's Keepe
Vacaville, CA


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## Belen (Jul 12, 2005)

was said:
			
		

> -The fact that you and others here, want gaming consumers to recognize the plight of struggling small businesses is laudable.  Just don't forget the fact that many of the people you are trying to convice are struggling to make ends meet as well.




I do not ignore the fact.  The thing that cheeses me off are the people who rant about game stores and how they do nothing to compete as if those game stores had the option of trying to compete on price.  It is those people who only think about the discount and nothing else that really bother me.

I fully understand about being poor.  I am just getting to a point in my life where I may not have to live paycheck to paycheck.  However, if your at the point where buying a book online or from the store is the difference between eating and starving, then I do not understand why you're buying the book in the first place.

If you're buying so many books that shopping on Amazon lets you afford more books, then you're not really worried about money.

I am not saying that some people should not utilize the web to buy books.  ENWorld has a great online store.  I am not saying that people must shop at game stores.  If they store sucks, then feel free to shop at Wal-Mart or Amazon.

I am only saying that people should give a store a chance.


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## Dristram (Jul 12, 2005)

*My simple thoughts on this*

Here are just my simple thoughts on this whole thing.

If you have a friendly local game store you like and would miss if it were gone, then buy from them.  Even a little.  Like if you want two books this month, buy one from the local store, and if you can afford to...buy both.  If you can't, then well, you can't.  But at least you've supported the store as you are able.

If you have a local store that is not a good game store, then screw 'em.  They don't deserve sympathy purchases.  Let non-mainstream style game stores go the way of the dinosaur making room for quality game stores that care about and service gamers' gaming needs.

Also, I'm trying to figure out when the retail price for a book became a bash on the game store, and not a bash on the manufacturer.  They set the retail price.  If you think it's too high, then get mad at the manufacturer, not the game store.

(-Brad
Owner, Gamer's Keepe
Vacaville, CA


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## Arashi Ravenblade (Jul 12, 2005)

Those things i mentioned where right off the top of my head. 
There are plenty of other examples, cable/sattelite dish, cell phones, car and food brands, energy companies, movies theaters or movie rentals, basically anything you purchase always has someone right around the corner (no matter if its a luxury or a need) ready to give you a better deal and the people that cant compete suffer...to bad not my problem, my dad lost his job because the place he worked for could not keep up and they went under, im not angry at the people who got there stuff cheaper some where else, heck we didnt even shop there because of the prices, we shop at aldi and save-alot, sorry looking little grocier chains but good deals and the same food for often half the price.

If some of you want to get down on those that dont support there game shops, you have to remember that in these times money is scarce and if one of your pleasures is buying a new game book every so often they should be able to without paying as much as a cable or cell phone bill.


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## rgard (Jul 12, 2005)

hexgrid said:
			
		

> This is how I see it. Supporting the local game store is considered some sort of moral imperative, but why? The game store will have what what I'm looking for maybe 20% of the time. Internet retailers will have what I'm looking for 100% of the time.
> 
> If the business model of the FLGS doesn't make sense in this day and age, why shouldn't we let it die out?
> 
> If the only purpose the FLGS serves is as a place for gamers to gather, well, we should find a different place to gather.




The pencil and paper rpg industry will die without the local game stores.  Your local game store orders from the distributors.  The big orders the distributors make keep this part of the gaming industry alive.  No publisher's business model will allow them to think they can print something based on amazon dot com sales alone.

Note: I own and operate a FLGS.

Thanks,
Rich


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## rgard (Jul 12, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> So I wanted to buy the game Attack! and checked out my FLGS.  They had it for $39.99 (US funds).
> 
> Then I went to Toys R Us.  They also had Attack!.  For $13.99.
> 
> ...




"Oh Lord, how should we piss off?"

FLGS owner here.  I didn't even consider stocking Attack! as it is defined by the industry as a 'mass markets' product.  I don't have the price handy that I would have been charged for Attack! by my distributors, but here is another example:

Heroscape

You can buy the Heroscape starter set at Walmart for $39.99 or so.  My distributor would charge me $38.50 for the same set.  Throw in shipping and I am buying the set for more than Walmart sells it.

Therefore I don't stock Heroscape.  

I used to think (before I opened my own store) that the game store I frequented in Virginia was ripping people off for Hasbro's Epic Duels until I found out how much they were paying for it.

Some FLGS make a business decision to stock the games anyway and charge more for the games than Walmart does.  This can make sense at times as Walmart and company will sometimes only stock the initial release of a game then never stock it again.

Beyond your side rant, I don't see that you asked any FLGS owners why the prices were higher in the FLGS.  Maybe some research in advance of making a universal condemnation of a business would be in order?

Thanks,
Rich


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## rgard (Jul 12, 2005)

Kanegrundar said:
			
		

> Belen, start a new thread about this, as I really want to ask you some questions about that.
> 
> Kane




Here is the WotC thread dealing with this:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?threadid=413450

Isn't quite dead yet.


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## Mark Chance (Jul 12, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> I am only saying that people should give a store a chance.




That's not all you're saying. You've also explicitly blamed Amazon for the killing the d20 Star Wars line, accused on-line purchasers of contributing to the rising costs of WotC products, and soothsaid that further on-line purchasing will ultimately lead to D&D being converted to a collectible miniatures game.


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## PJ-Mason (Jul 12, 2005)

rgard said:
			
		

> The pencil and paper rpg industry will die without the local game stores.




No it won't. You can order print books from a lot (or most) of publishers directly. If LGSs went out of business the industry would change, not die. Its up to the LGS's to change and evolve with the industry. I'm not saying thats wrong or right, bad or good, fair or unfair. But i do think its necessary. Or at least inevitable.


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## PJ-Mason (Jul 12, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> I am only saying that people should give a store a chance.




I don't think anyone is gainsaying that are they? I sure am not. If anyone has a FLGS that is great, i think they do have an obligation to shop there. Not because of the health of the industry, since i don't at all believe that LGSs and industry health are _inexorably_ linked, but because having that kind of local assest is worth cultivating. 

I'd love to have a decent LGS around here. I've given my LGS countless chances. I just got sick of doing it. Especially when financial or convenience concerns dictate that i can do better elsewhere to begin with.


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## rgard (Jul 12, 2005)

PJ-Mason said:
			
		

> No it won't. You can order print books from a lot (or most) of publishers directly. If LGSs went out of business the industry would change, not die. Its up to the LGS's to change and evolve with the industry. I'm not saying thats wrong or right, bad or good, fair or unfair. But i do think its necessary. Or at least inevitable.




We need to look at how the print industry works.  

Let's start with this:

1.  The publishers have to print x number copies of a given title in order to break even.  A greater number than x is needed in order to make a profit.

2.  Distributors place orders in advance for the title (and possibly the large bookstore chains.)  The publisher uses these pre-order numbers plus past sales history in order to determine whether they publish the title.

3.  Distributors sell to FLGSs and some sell on line directly to individuals.  Not sure about borders and the like, but they may buy directly from the publisher.

4.  Take the FLGSs out of the equation and the publisher loses a large number of sales that would have been used to justify publishing the title (the distributor now has no customers and doesn't order the title and files for Chapter 13.)

Publishers would be able to stay in business if they could be reasonably confident that the direct sales, internet distributors and Borders sales could sustain them.  They could lose it all on one title that the above didn't decide to buy.

Take the FLGSs out of the equation and you change everybody else's business model.  That kind of change will destroy some of the smaller publishers at minimum and I suspect many of the larger ones as well.

Thanks,
Rich

My edit:  I didn't like how my first line sounded so I changed it.


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## rgard (Jul 12, 2005)

PJ-Mason said:
			
		

> <SNIP>
> 
> I'd love to have a decent LGS around here. I've given my LGS countless chances. I just got sick of doing it. Especially when financial or convenience concerns dictate that i can do better elsewhere to begin with.




Maybe, just maybe I'll get to Fulton someday and open another store there!  Could be several decades, and cost countless lives...joking aside...sorry to hear your (F)LGS lacks the 'F'.

Things I do here:

1.  Large gaming area.  Includes tables and seating for around 30 people to game.  Takes up half my floor space.

2.  I vacuum the place and empty the trash cans every night.  I clean the restroom 2x a day.  I worked in a restaurant in a past life and hate filthy restrooms.

3.  Clean the glass display counters as needed...usually 4-5 times a day.  

4.  I have a painting station at the back of the gaming area.  I have one each of all the Games Workshop paints for the customers to use if they want to paint their minis.  I initially provided paint brushes, but those disappeared so the customers provide their own now.

5.  Frequent customer discount.  They don't have to pay for it.  I give them a card after they make several purchases.  I'll have to codify this someday, but for now I am relying on my memory to identify the frequent customers.

6.  I do 10% off on any movie tie-ins.  Star Wars minis and books are now 10% off as well as Marvel and DC Heroclix while the movies are playing.

7.  I don't mind the customers reading the books before buying them.  No shrinkwrapping here.  I don't let them take the books to the gaming area though.  That said, I have had a customer or two get angry when I told them they couldn't take a store (stock) copy of the players handbook to the gaming area to use while gaming.

8.  We run tournaments for the various games.

9.  We've done minis painting clinics that are free to attend...just bring your own mini and use my paints.

The store has been open 3 months now.  I'm not near profitable yet, but doing better than my business plan had me doing after 3 months.  I have a strong core customer base who 
are repeat business.

So I'd like to think this is more than just a retail outlet and more of a Friendly LGS/gaming experience.

Thanks,
Rich


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## PJ-Mason (Jul 12, 2005)

rgard said:
			
		

> We need to look at how the print industry works.
> Take the FLGSs out of the equation and you change everybody else's business model.  That kind of change will destroy some of the smaller publishers at minimum and I suspect many of the larger ones as well.




Thats my point, though. It will _change_ how a lot of publishers craft their business model, but it isn't going to _kill the paper and pencil industry_. Evolution of society is the only thing thats going kill the P&P industry and thats somewhere in the future. 

I think small publishers have either already crafted a business model that lets them survive alongside the big boys and high volume requirements or at least they acknowledge that they are "rolling the dice" and that bankruptcy is a possibility thats only a moment away. That will not likely change no matter what happens in the industry. Thats a universal business truth. A lot of small publishers will go online or skip the middle men (in fact a lot of them already do). Remember, a game publisher could skip the distribution and LGSs, mark up their prices to increase their current profit rates and still give the customers a cheaper product, or have less volume concerns and charge the current rates. A lot of them do it out of good will support for distributors and LGSs, not because they'll fall apart if they do (though some think they will). Especially the small ones.

Btw, i hope you are not taking this personal. If you run your GS as friendly, informative place that has room for gaming and all the other things that make a great FLGS what it is supposed to be, than i am _all for_ you staying in business and the local gamers keeping you that way. Truly i am.

Edited: a bunch of typos. sigh. You know...if ENWorld created some sort of text editor, i might defintely buy a membership!


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 12, 2005)

> However, I don't see any discussion on why customers (other than a select few in here) feel that buying online and saving some money is worth more than paying full retail at a LGS.





GOOD LGS advantages over online (any of the below may not apply to a bad LGS):

1)  When I need something NOW- I know I can call and have it within an hour.
2)  Sales staff who know me personally will approach me with news of changes in the landscape- a certain product about to hit, another about to be discontinued, a limited edition _______ available only to 50 people in a city or state or country...
3)  Face-to-face interaction with gamers in my area that allows me to find new players and new games...or avoid bad ones.
4) Improved awareness of the local legal environment re: RPGs.  That is- who in your area is maligning gamers based on misinformation or stereotypes?  Its a topic that shows up on the boards occasionally, but in the game stores, you know QUICKLY when a gamer has been accused of "corrupting the youth with their satanic hobby."
5) Gamer Oasis.  The one place you can GUARANTEE not being judged for participating in the hobby is the place that supports the hobby.




> $35-$40 dollars is very costly for a single book. I'd rather not be faced with the choice of buying either groceries or a game book.




1) Complain to the publisher, not the retailer.  They set the price, and they also grant the discounted prices to places like Wal-Mart.  The LGS can't compete with Wal-Mart if their cost is higher than Wal-Mart's price.
2) If your budget is so tight that a $5-15 price differential is the difference between games and groceries, you need to stop buying the books altogether until you get a better job.



> 3.) Although I don't know how the taxes argument arose since it wasn't in my post, I've never disputed the hidden costs of running a business. However, hardworking consumers also pay taxes. I lose over 28% of my income in taxes every year, further limiting my purchasing power. Hence, I am not very sympathetic towards this point in your argument.




Actually, I'll somewhat side with you here.  Ad valorem taxes (year-end taxes on inventory) occur in almost every retail industry.  The solution is to* SELL OFF OLD INVENTORY* (unless its a hot collectible)- _even if you take a short-term loss on it._  This is done in 2 industries I'm very familiar with (car sales and gems/jewelry).  First- it limits the number of times a product is taxed to once- additional taxation of inventory just adds to its cost to the retailer and cuts into the profits anyway.  Second, product that doesn't sell takes away from space that could be used to stock product that WILL sell. *Old inventory is a HUGE opportunity cost,* and is one of the ones most controllable by the retailer.

One of my LGSs- Lone Star Comics (LSC)- routinely uses discount bins and warehouse sales to clear old stock.  Because of that, I was able to buy 3 2Ed PHBs for $5 each...and this was before 3Ed was even on the horizon!  They did it to avoid inventory taxes.  To keep those books and sell them at full price would have cost them additional taxes (raising the effective cost the retailer paid for it) and cost LSC the opportunity to sell other, hotter game product.  LSC also discounted Chainmail 50% when it was discontinued in favor of the D&D Miniatures game...MINE!  ALL MINE!

Is it cool to be able to walk into a store and find OOP games?  Yes...you never know what you're going to find or what you'll need to replace.  But each old game product that sits on the shelves isn't contributing to the store's bottom line.



> 4.) I've easily spent thousands of dollars at local shops in the past because I believe in supporting the local economy. I just cannot afford to do it anymore. I don't make a lot of money and I simply have too much debt to shop at a non-competitive, not to mention unfriendly, shop. My budget is simply too tight. When I can afford to be more free with my income, I will.
> -The fact that you and others here, want gaming consumers to recognize the plight of
> struggling small businesses is laudable. Just don't forget the fact that many of the people you are trying to convice are struggling to make ends meet as well.




The best way I've found to save money *AND* support LGS's (only the _good_ ones!) is not to have the LGS's form co-ops- even then, they can't compete with the big retailers- but to have GAMERS form co-ops.  Instead of EVERYONE buying their own Core books to every game system the group plays, everyone in the group pitches in to buy a set (possibly with an extra PHB or 2).  Deserving LGS's keep their doors open, and gamers without money still have access to everything they need.


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## PJ-Mason (Jul 13, 2005)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> The best way I've found to save money *AND* support LGS's (only the _good_ ones!) is not to have the LGS's form co-ops- even then, they can't compete with the big retailers- but to have GAMERS form co-ops.  Instead of EVERYONE buying their own Core books to every game system the group plays, everyone in the group pitches in to buy a set (possibly with an extra PHB or 2).  Deserving LGS's keep their doors open, and gamers without money still have access to everything they need.




Interesting theory. But how does it translate into more books sold for the FLGS? Instead of buying a PHB, they buy another book.

Sometimes i think the FLGS of the future won't even be a gamer's prime source for game books (if a source at all!). Like others have said it could be more of an environmental or ambiance refuge for gamers. Few gamers have their house set up to look like a dungeon or the bridge of a starship.  They might well pay for someone else to do it for them and keep them in munchies.


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## rgard (Jul 13, 2005)

PJ-Mason said:
			
		

> Thats my point, though. It will _change_ how a lot of publishers craft their business model, but it isn't going to _kill the paper and pencil industry_. Evolution of society is the only thing thats going kill the P&P industry and thats somewhere in the future.
> 
> I think small publishers have either already crafted a business model that lets them survive alongside the big boys and high volume requirements or at least they acknowledge that they are "rolling the dice" and that bankruptcy is a possibility thats only a moment away. That will not likely change no matter what happens in the nidustry. Thats a universal business truth. A lot of small publishers will go online or skip the middle men (in fact a lot of them already do). Remember, a game publisher could skip the distribution and LGSs, mark up their prices to increase their current profit rates and still give the customers a cheaper product, or have less volume concerns and charge the current rates. A lot of them don't do it out of good will support for distributors and LGSs, not because they'll fall apart if they do (though some think they will). Escpecially the small ones.
> 
> Btw, i hope you are not taking this personal. If you run your GS as friendly, informative place that has room for gaming and all the other things that make a great FLGS what it is supposed to be, than i am _all for_ you staying in business and the local gamers keeping you that way. Truly i am.




Gee thanks!  No seriously, not taken personally.  I even re-wrote my opening sentence of the post so I didn't sound annoyed.

That said, I don't share your optimism as to the RPG pen and paper games surviving the demise of the current major distribution system for the games.  

Then again, maybe we can survive just with WotC rpg products.  'We' meaning gamers, not the FLGS owners.  I'll survive on minis (Star Wars, D&D, 40K and the like) as a FLGS owner.  You can't run a 40k tournament at your on-line distributor's warehouse.

Thanks,
Rich


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## ThirdWizard (Jul 13, 2005)

The most successful LGS I go to makes most of its money off of RC Cars. They also sell weapons, board games, Magic: the Gathering, and other various side things. There's another LGS that I would call more "friendly" which has comic books, several tournaments a week (D&D Minis, Star Wars Minis, Warhammer, Warmachine, M:tG, etc), and sells the things for those tournaments. Both stores have large sections where people can come and play various games as well as battlemats you can use (nice ones, too). I like going to these places, so I consider buying from them an investment in keeping something that I like.

Diversification is important to staying in business. The first store makes a lot of money, not from D&D, but a bit from M:tG and mostly from its RC Cars and Warhammer. The second makes enough to get by because of its tournaments, which encourage lots of buys to participate in them. Neither of them make most of their money from roleplaying products. I don't think its my job to keep them in business, its their job to make me want to buy things from them. And, they do this; I havn't bought a book over the internet in over a year.


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## PJ-Mason (Jul 13, 2005)

rgard said:
			
		

> Gee thanks!  No seriously, not taken personally.  I even re-wrote my opening sentence of the post so I didn't sound annoyed.
> 
> That said, I don't share your optimism as to the RPG pen and paper games surviving the demise of the current major distribution system for the games.
> 
> ...




Well, i hope i am wrong about the future of LGSs, in regards to rpg business. (at least for you good ones out there).

My LGS owner has definitely latched onto the wonders of selling and catering to the minature and card gamers. To the detriment of his RPG business, unfortunately. But thats the way it goes.

PS: You *can* refute the JEDI dogma and still avoid being a dark Jedi. I did. Don't let the council tell you differently!!


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## rgard (Jul 13, 2005)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> The most successful LGS I go to makes most of its money off of RC Cars. They also sell weapons, board games, Magic: the Gathering, and other various side things. There's another LGS that I would call more "friendly" which has comic books, several tournaments a week (D&D Minis, Star Wars Minis, Warhammer, Warmachine, M:tG, etc), and sells the things for those tournaments. Both stores have large sections where people can come and play various games as well as battlemats you can use (nice ones, too). I like going to these places, so I consider buying from them an investment in keeping something that I like.
> 
> Diversification is important to staying in business. The first store makes a lot of money, not from D&D, but a bit from M:tG and mostly from its RC Cars and Warhammer. The second makes enough to get by because of its tournaments, which encourage lots of buys to participate in them. Neither of them make most of their money from roleplaying products. I don't think its my job to keep them in business, its their job to make me want to buy things from them. And, they do this; I havn't bought a book over the internet in over a year.




That's interesting about the R/C car sales.  I was talking to another FLGS (I'd call it Friendly, but I have a high tolerance for pain) owner and he got out of the R/C business due to theft.  I must have looked sceptical when he said that, because he went on to explain that the people shoplifting the R/C stuff were grown ups...guys in their 30s and 40s.

Still shake my head at that revelation.

Thanks,
Rich


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## ThirdWizard (Jul 13, 2005)

rgard said:
			
		

> That's interesting about the R/C car sales. I was talking to another FLGS (I'd call it Friendly, but I have a high tolerance for pain) owner and he got out of the R/C business due to theft. I must have looked sceptical when he said that, because he went on to explain that the people shoplifting the R/C stuff were grown ups...guys in their 30s and 40s.
> 
> Still shake my head at that revelation.




Wow... just... wow... Thankfully, we've had no problems with theft at either shop, and I've noticed it would be extremely easy to steal from the second shop. The RPG products are right at the door and it would be very easy to distract the one person at the register.

I forgot, the second store also sells anime, though pretty slowly. Neither store has bargain bins, though. I would love that. I've never actually seen any LGS with a bargain bin!


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 13, 2005)

> Interesting theory. But how does it translate into more books sold for the FLGS? Instead of buying a PHB, they buy another book.




We'll, obviously the gamer co-op could still buy stuff online- I was, unfortunately, not entirely clear in making my point.

The point was that if gamers wanted to support their LGS but were short on dough, then pooling THEIR money for the purchase of stuff _from the LGS_ keeps the gamers supplied with product and the LGS stays in business.  They make the sale of the PHB rather than the online shop, and every sale helps.  On the flipside, the gamers who pool their resources have greater buying power because they make fewer duplicate purchases.

As I mentioned before, I supply a LOT of product for my group.  Functionally, I AM a gamer co-op.  As a result, some of the people in the group spend ZERO money on RPGs, and still get to play.  I've got versions of D&D going back to the mid-1970's to current; all 5 versions of HERO, and another 30+ RPGs on my shelves, so choice is seldom a problem.  (Its largely wasted on my current group, however...3Ed D&D is the only game we play right now.)


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## PJ-Mason (Jul 13, 2005)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> The point was that if gamers wanted to support their LGS but were short on dough, then pooling THEIR money for the purchase of stuff _from the LGS_ keeps the gamers supplied with product and the LGS stays in business.  They make the sale of the PHB rather than the online shop, and every sale helps.  On the flipside, the gamers who pool their resources have greater buying power because they make fewer duplicate purchases.




Oh, i get it. If you could get all the group on the same page, that could help out both the gamers and the LGS some. If you had one dm that everyone trusted to keep the books, that could work out. Probably not well for most groups though. But if you had the right group, that could be a cool solution. 



			
				Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> (Its largely wasted on my current group, however...3Ed D&D is the only game we play right now.)




*Sigh* I feel your pain. My last group was like that. I'm OD'ed on D&D right now, let me tell you. I'm real thankful for my new group, though.


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## rgard (Jul 13, 2005)

PJ-Mason said:
			
		

> Well, i hope i am wrong about the future of LGSs, in regards to rpg business. (at least for you good ones out there).
> 
> My LGS owner has definitely latched onto the wonders of selling and catering to the minature and card gamers. To the detriment of his RPG business, unfortunately. But thats the way it goes.
> 
> PS: You *can* refute the JEDI dogma and still avoid being a dark Jedi. I did. Don't let the council tell you differently!!




We have a Star Wars campaign running and another customer is starting up a D&D campaign.  To be honest, the Star Wars campaign hasn't really helped the RPG sales...it helped the minis sales (I sell the minis singly as well.)

The minis (SW, D&D, WH, WH40k and Heroclix) make up 50% of my sales.  MtG and Yu Gi Oh are about 20%.  Board games (Risk Godstorm, Axis and Allies and the like) are 15%.  The WotC D20 and Mongoose D20, Green Ronin products are 10% of the sales.

I make sure I have at least two of every WotC product on the shelf with a decent selection of Mongoose and other D20 publishers.

That leaves the remaining 5% to soda pop and non-WotC/Mongoose/Green Ronin rpgs.  

I have sold exactly 3 non-D20 books so far.  One WoD book and 2 of the new Warhammmer Fantasy Roleplaying books.  

I'm not counting all the 40k codices and WH army books and lump them in with the minis sales (where they belong.)  

I didn't leave any major RPG system out of my original start up stock for the store.  So I think I gave these a fair shot.  The RPG stuff just doesn't sell as well as the rest of the items.

I'm fairly confident that I will be selling off the non-D20 stuff in about 8 months (to avoid the aforemented tax on old stock.)  As a resutlt I will be very leary of stocking any non-d20 rpg products.

Thanks,
Rich


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## Darmanicus (Jul 13, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> So I wanted to buy the game Attack! and checked out my FLGS.  They had it for $39.99 (US funds).
> 
> Then I went to Toys R Us.  They also had Attack!.  For $13.99.
> 
> ...




Look at it from this point of view.........

Your FLGS has some scrunty dressed alternatives for staff and possibly several kids as constant customers......

Toys R us has a load of lovely lookin' moms in probably a great mood because they're tryin' ta find the 'in ' toy fer their kid/s and you're probably the most qualified person in that store to help those lovely moms find those games because at least you have the gamin' mindset/enthusiasm..........don't knock it!!!!!     

Goodnight.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 13, 2005)

> Oh, i get it. If you could get all the group on the same page, that could help out both the gamers and the LGS some. If you had one dm that everyone trusted to keep the books, that could work out. Probably not well for most groups though. But if you had the right group, that could be a cool solution




I've seen it work a couple of different ways, with different levels of sophistication.

Some do it like a club, with dues, and then the group votes on what to buy with the dues money.  Some of those groups even have bank accounts to gain interest...but treasury work can get ugly if their are trust issues. 

Other groups had 1 D&D guy, 1 GURPS guy, the RIFTS dude, a HERO person, etc.

If someone wanted to try a new system, he could (if he got approval) buy the core stuff for the game, and if the game wasn't immediately popular with more than 50% of the group, he'd be responsible for reimbursing the group.  At that point, the game he bought becomes HIS property- he has "bought out his partners."  If the game simply falls out of use (people get tired of it over time), then the group could just hold on to it for later or sell it to a used book or game store or donate it to an appropriate charity (some libraries, veterans groups, and even military bases LOVE to get gaming supplies).

If trust in general is an issue, you could adopt a "library" system, where the books are kept in one place, and there's a sign-out sheet with dates.  That way, everyone knows who has what books and for how long.

(I'm VERY close to doing that with my novels, RPGs and my CDs...all of which I currently loan out pretty informally and very frequently)

In a group like my current game, where D20 is the only game, decisions are pretty easy to make.


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## nopantsyet (Jul 13, 2005)

I'm a big fan of my FLGS, _Danger Planet_ in Waltham, Mass. In the years I've been shopping there, their inventory has changed. More and more of the store is devoted to minis. And I think that's great!

I don't buy minis, by the way...

But it keeps the store in business, and keeps it active. There is a community value to it, like a public swimming pool. You may not use it all the time, but it's good to know it's there when you want it. Personally, my favorite time is on a rainy Saturday afternoon. I usually pick something up when I stop in. It's nice to feel like there is a local gaming community, even if I game in a closed group.

But I don't always buy there. I favor them. But if I'm buying something online already and I can get free shipping by getting something else, well...the savings is worth it. And if it's a niche brand the FLGS doesn't carry, I'll order it online from the publisher instead. Otherwise, I'll wait till a rainy day.

Which in New England isn't so hard to come by.


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## Belen (Jul 13, 2005)

Mark Chance said:
			
		

> That's not all you're saying. You've also explicitly blamed Amazon for the killing the d20 Star Wars line, accused on-line purchasers of contributing to the rising costs of WotC products, and soothsaid that further on-line purchasing will ultimately lead to D&D being converted to a collectible miniatures game.




No.  I speculated.  And the SW information was based on an answer given to me by someone with the company.


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## Kanegrundar (Jul 13, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> No.  I speculated.  And the SW information was based on an answer given to me by someone with the company.



 These are some pretty wild claims from "someone in the company."  The very idea that buying D&D books online will lead to D&D becoming a minis game solely is so out there you might as well tell us that D&D is perpetuated by aliens.  That statement would carry as much logic as the whole D&D will morph into a minis game.  Plus, I think that many people here (me included) take shady insider information with a truckload of salt.  Either present a little proof to back these statements up or risk losing the last shred of credibility in the debate.

Sorry if that comes off rough, but I get tired of hearing about "my secret contacts in <insert company> tell me this and that."  9 out of 10 times (I'm being generous) it's just typical messageboard crap.  One of my major online pet peeves.

Kane


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## Belen (Jul 13, 2005)

Kanegrundar said:
			
		

> These are some pretty wild claims from "someone in the company."  The very idea that buying D&D books online will lead to D&D becoming a minis game solely is so out there you might as well tell us that D&D is perpetuated by aliens.  That statement would carry as much logic as the whole D&D will morph into a minis game.  Plus, I think that many people here (me included) take shady insider information with a truckload of salt.  Either present a little proof to back these statements up or risk losing the last shred of credibility in the debate.
> 
> Sorry if that comes off rough, but I get tired of hearing about "my secret contacts in <insert company> tell me this and that."  9 out of 10 times (I'm being generous) it's just typical messageboard crap.  One of my major online pet peeves.
> 
> Kane




Dude, you were the one pushing for more info.  I never said that Wizards said anything about  D&D going away.  I said that I found out that nothing was scheduled for release and that the OP kits for SW d20 had been canceled.

Wizards MAY relaunch the SW d20 game in the future.  My opinion was that the minis sales so dwarfed the RPG that it will not be worth their time to keep printing the books.

You wanted a whole thread about the subject when I had already given you all the info I had, then have proceded to attack me (on two threads!) because I cannot give you your pound of flesh.  

I am sorry that you want them to continue with your game.  I hope that they decide to pick up the d20 game again, especially with a TV series out next year.  However, retailer support for SW d20 has been canceled and replaced with retailer support for the minis game.

That was my info.  Take it or leave.  I do not care.


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## Mark Chance (Jul 13, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> No.  I speculated.




Speculated. Made wild accusations that have no apparent substance. Toe-may-toe. Tah-mah-toe.

The point stands: You've done more than...



			
				BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> I am only saying that people should give a store a chance.


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## Kanegrundar (Jul 13, 2005)

Belen, all I'm looking for is something a little more substantial than saying an inside source told me that SWD20 is dead.  You've switched gears in the other thread and went from the death was official to "it seems."  It's the wild claims that I (and others) are attacking.  Due to the change in tone in the other thread, it damages your position on the whole SW issue.  It doesn't have that much to do with me not wanting SWD20 to die (though for all intents and purposes it is, but WotC has NOT said definantly yet), but more to do with ambiguous sources.  If you can't come out and say this is what <insert name here> told me, then it's really best not to bring it up.  Plus, things that you claim to be speculating in this thread actually are written to sound like you KNOW that things are heading in the gloom and doom path you're describing rather than just making a guess.  

You've gone far beyond just saying "people should give a store a chance" many times.  You're trying to give your rather weak arguement with concrete by stating claims from inside sources that you either can't or unwilling to back up.  The worst part is, I agree that people should support their FLGS (emphasis on the Friendly) if they enjoy what the shop offers.  You're just getting a little too far out there with your stance.

Kane

Kane


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## spectre72 (Jul 13, 2005)

rgard said:
			
		

> The store has been open 3 months now.  I'm not near profitable yet, but doing better than my business plan had me doing after 3 months.  I have a strong core customer base who are repeat business.




Well from this statement alone I would say you have a decent chance of keeping your store open.

first, you have a business plan.

This shows that you know that your store is a risky undertaking and you have planned for that risk.

Second, you also seem to have some good ideas on how to provide customer service.

I wish you luck and if I am ever in your area I will drop by as I often do when traveling.

I have thought about opening a store myself, but have never been able to work out a business plan that provided enough support that I could keep a store alive (due to costs and customer demographics) so I have always held onto what little money I have.

Perhaps when I retire


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## resscane (Jul 13, 2005)

*Miami's FLGS, Sunshine Comics*

If anyone one on the board lives in miami, and has been to sunshine comics, then they already know how poorly a shop can be run.  The owners of the shop are a brother and sister combo I believe to be in their early 50's.  They are 2 of the biggest wack jobs you have ever met. Both have been treated cruely by fate.  Unattractive,  mentally deficient,  socially inept on a scale that makes your average d&d player seem like the BMOC,  poorly organized, surly, suspicious,  I guess it seems like I'm piling on here.   When you walk in the store, the brother, who I believe has a glass eye,  startes at you for a couple minutes. Finally he'll say, " Can I help you" with a tone I would use on a telemarketer.  Then the sister starts yelling at him, and they start arguing w/ each other, screaming at the top of their lungs, with out regard to the people in the store.  The store is a friggin mess,  unorganized does not do it justice.  And it's been that way for at least 15 years, since I started at U of MIami.  It is the only store in dade county, I believe.   But they are still there, after all these years.   I've bought prolly 2,500.00 worth of gameing stuff from them over the years.  My friends just as much.  And everytime I walk in the store, he looks at me like I'm a leper.  He has no idea who I am.  Its sureal, because I introduce d myself to him the 1st 50 times I went into the store.   As you walk out, having just bought $100.00 worth of gaming books, one of his eyes,  the glass one or the good one,  I'm never quite sure, follows you suspiciously as you leave.   I Hate that place.


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## Samothdm (Jul 13, 2005)

I've said this before in other threads on the subject, but I wish some of the stores that seem to exist in the Midwest existed here in Los Angeles, the *second biggest city in the United States!*.  I just don't get it.  



			
				Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> 1)  When I need something NOW- I know I can call and have it within an hour.




If I were to call my local game store, assuming the guy that normally works there actually bothered to answer the phone, I can guarantee that his response would not be helpful.



			
				Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> 2)  Sales staff who know me personally will approach me with news of changes in the landscape- a certain product about to hit, another about to be discontinued, a limited edition _______ available only to 50 people in a city or state or country...




Been shopping at this particular store since 3E came out in 1999/2000.  There are three people I've seen work there.  About 90% of the time I go, it's the same guy who has *not once* in five years greeted me by name (what am I talking about - he hasn't greeted me, period).  His "gaming knowledge" extends to the current CCG fad of the moment, or whatever it is his little circle of friends are playing.  



> 3)  Face-to-face interaction with gamers in my area that allows me to find new players and new games...or avoid bad ones.




Not really an issue for me, as I game with a group of friends, and we gain new blood to our groups by having current people say, "Hey, I met this man/woman at work/school and he/she is interested in joining our group."



> 4) Improved awareness of the local legal environment re: RPGs.  That is- who in your area is maligning gamers based on misinformation or stereotypes?  Its a topic that shows up on the boards occasionally, but in the game stores, you know QUICKLY when a gamer has been accused of "corrupting the youth with their satanic hobby."




That would involve conversation with the guy working there, and he is apparently allergic to conversation.  



> 5) Gamer Oasis.  The one place you can GUARANTEE not being judged for participating in the hobby is the place that supports the hobby.




Uh, try coming to LA sometime and go to Last Grenadier in Burbank and ask them for help with an RPG product.  You will be scoffed at because you are not a wargamer.  It's fun!  I love it when geeks condescend to other geeks.  

Seriously, there are four stores that I have patronized (Pasadena, Burbank, West Los Angeles, and Diamond Bar).  Of the four, the only one I really like was All Star Games in Diamond Bar, but I hear from a friend that they are closing down, which sucks.  I hadn't been there in awhile because it's a pretty far drive (all the way in, _shudder_, the "909), but back in College I was there at least once a week.  The staff was super friendly, I swear they had played every single game they carried and could offer advice/comparisons on the products, it was clean, well-lit, vaccuumed, air conditioned, sans-"gamer funk", the whole thing.  The only downside was that they shrink-wrapped their RPG stuff.  

Brad and Rich, you two need to come down here to LA and do some kind of "extreme makeover" on the game stores down here.  That could be a new kind of business!  

Anyway, I've complained several times about the "unfriendly" aspect of my local game shop, and I find myself going there less and less.  It's not an issue of price.  It's not even an issue of convenience (obviously going there to pick up a book and have it right then is more convenient than ordering it online and having to wait a week for it to show up).  It's more of a feeling that this store has hired staff who are not interested in helping me or my gamer friends.  They are there to hog the gaming tables, eat pizza, and play CCGs with their friends.  They treat it as an inconvenience when you walk up to the counter to buy product.  They do not get up out of their seat to help you find something, but rather wave their arm in the vague direction of where the product _might_ be, if they have it in stock.  

So why would I want to shop there?


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## Majoru Oakheart (Jul 13, 2005)

resscane said:
			
		

> I Hate that place.



Yes, I've had a similar experience here with my LGS.  There are only 2 in the city.

One is owned by a couple in their 60s.  The man is ex-military and has almost no personality.  Even when he thinks he is being funny and interesting, he just comes across as creepy.  In contrast, his wife if very personable and friendly.  I personally believe that they've only stayed in business this long because of her and being one of two stores in the whole city.

Almost every trip to the store for the first couple of years I went there was the same.  You get watched the entire time you are there in case you are trying to steal things from him.  He makes you leave your bag at the front counter.  He then asks you "can I help you?" nearly every 5 minutes you are in the store.  His wife hangs around in the back, so you rarely see her.  When you ask him anything about the books in the store, he normally knows when he's getting in books and a little of whats in them, but he stopped actually playing games years ago.  I believe he hasn't played D&D since before 3rd Ed came out.  He has a weekly board game night he plays in, but the business of selling games seems to have replaced playing them for him.

He charges above suggested retail price on ALL books and claims the cost of doing business as the reason he cannot charge the MSRP.  I've gotten a bad vibe from him due to the time at a Con where a local gaming group went bankrupt and auctioned off all of the gaming books in their "library" to pay their bills.  I was trying to bid on Alternity, which was still in print at the time and I got outbid for the Players book AND DM's book by the owner of the store.  I overheard him talking to someone when he was picking up his purchases.  They asked "So, you buying all this stuff for yourself?"  He said "No, most of it is just going to be resold in my store."  I know it's business and all, but it seems that outbidding gamers at a gaming auction so you can sell the same items back to gamers at higher price seems unethical to me.

However, since the gaming commmunity is small here, and he helps to plan all the conventions and games days in the city, he is an icon here.  Nearly everyone hates him, but they deal with him anyways.  Also, a bunch of my gaming group members are friends of his.

They do have gaming space, however.  It just can only be used when the store is open (normal business hours) and only if you let the owner know you need it way in advance so he can see if he'll let you use it.

The other store in the city is entirely staffed by high school kids who don't know anything at all about any of the books on the shelf.  The owner is never around and until recently, I didn't even KNOW who owned it.  I now know because someone I know bought it.  I haven't been there since, so I don't know if it changed.  However, they generally had nothing in stock and still managed to charge MORE than the above mentioned store.  The store was sold because it was close to being bankrupt.  They have only 2 gaming tables and they are in the middle of the store.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 13, 2005)

> 1) When I need something NOW- I know I can call and have it within an hour.







> If I were to call my local game store, assuming the guy that normally works there actually bothered to answer the phone, I can guarantee that his response would not be helpful.




Sorry- that was an incomplete thought.  What I meant was I can call _around to see if its in stock and proabably_ have it within an hour.

And, like I said before- I'm not asking that you support crappy stores, just that you consider more than just price- which you obviously do.  You should ALWAYS exercise your power as a consumer to take your $$$ elswhere if you're not getting good service in any form.

However, here's a little advice from someone who does a lot of consumer advocacy:

1) If you're going to stop shopping at a particular store because of the way employees treat you, let the manager and/or owner know, either in person or in writing.  That person may not realize what's going on out of his line of vision.  You may even walk away with freebies.  I know of 3 people in the last year who have gotten hundreds of dollars in free groceries because of inexcusably rude checkers- and I mean as in "F**k you- I don't get paid to bag your Diet Cokes" rude.  I've had $$$ meals comped because of rude waiters, and $$$$ knocked off the price of something VERY expensive...

and in each case, the employee got fired.

And if the person who is a jerk is the person who manages/owns the store, you lose nothing by telling him off in public- you're not planning on coming back.

You have no idea how many other people have had shoddy service...

2) Tell your friends what happened and why.  Word of mouth is the #1 form of advertising and publicity for most small businesses.  A study has shown that happy customers tell 3 people about good service- but unhappy ones tell more than 20.

Here in Dallas, negative word of mouth got a Bentley dealership closed after they thought a "cowboy" was kidding when he ordered a particular model.  When it wasn't ready on the appointed date, that "cowboy"-who happened to own 12 area banks- told ALL of his friends.  1 year later, that dealership closed.

And as for LA...I have long suspected it wasn't exactly gamer heaven.  There's just too much else to do as far as entertainment goes.

When M:TG started up, I was living in Austin, I bought cards at Dragon's Lair, Austin Books and Comics and at King's Hobbies, as well as at Lone Star Comics in Dallas when I visited home.  King's Hobbies would ROUTINELY have M:TG cards _MONTHS_ after the other locations had sold out.

KH's secret?  They had a long standing partnership with a game store in LA that had ordered MASSIVE amounts of cards...and couldn't sell them.  KH bought them cut rate, shipped them and sold them.  And, apparently, that wasn't all he bought from that store, though I never found out what else in there had CA ties.


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## Jim Hague (Jul 13, 2005)

was said:
			
		

> 2.) The owners of these stores are not the only ones that have to buy food and pay bills.  $35-$40 dollars is very costly for a single book.  I'd rather not be faced with the choice of buying either groceries or a game book.




To resurrect an old saw - your inability to afford a luxury does not mean it's overpriced.



> 3.) Although I don't know how the taxes argument arose since it wasn't in my post, I've never disputed the hidden costs of running a business.  However, hardworking consumers  also pay taxes.  I lose over 28% of my income in taxes every year, further limiting my purchasing power.  Hence, I am not very sympathetic towards this point in your argument.




See above.



> 4.)  I've easily spent thousands of dollars at local shops in the past because I believe in supporting the local economy.  I just cannot afford to do it anymore.  I don't make a lot of money and I simply have too much debt to shop at a non-competitive, not to mention unfriendly, shop.  My budget is simply too tight.  When I can afford to be more free with my income, I will.




Again, see above.  That your shop is unfriendly is simply bad icing on this particular cake.



> -The fact that you and others here, want gaming consumers to recognize the plight of
> struggling small businesses is laudable.  Just don't forget the fact that many of the people you are trying to convice are struggling to make ends meet as well.




And again...see above.  I've got a lot of sympathy for the people who _don't_ have FLGSes in their area, mostly because the one here rocks on toast.  But the argument that _you_ cannot afford a product, so it _must_ be overpriced is paralogic at best.  Plus, the rising cost of games reflects the rising cost of production.  I realize that you likely have little idea of how few people actually _profit_ from the work they do to deliver that product to your door, be it via the FLGS or an online retailer, bugt I think it might be educational to do some research on the topic.


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Jul 14, 2005)

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> To resurrect an old saw - your inability to afford a luxury does not mean it's overpriced.




Except that he *can* afford the product.  The "luxury" he can't afford is the local gaming store.


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## woodelf (Jul 14, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> If people feel that saving money by buying online is worth more than what their LGS offers, how can they be faulted? Remember, the customer is always right.




Is the customer right even when she makes a decision against her own [self-declared] best interests, due to ignorance or misunderstanding?

[There is precedent for that: shopping at the place that undercuts the prices of a business that gives you better service in some other way, and that other business closes up due to lost sales. For that matter, it's basically the whole point of the book _What's the Matter with Kansas?_, which looks at why some of the staunchest supporters of the Republican party are some of those most hurt by their policies.]


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jul 14, 2005)

woodelf said:
			
		

> Is the customer right even when she makes a decision against her own [self-declared] best interests, due to ignorance or misunderstanding?



I'm biased, having worked in retail sales. I will say without hesitation that the customer is most often not *fully* informed. And when so, the customer is *not* right.



			
				woodelf said:
			
		

> [... For that matter, it's basically the whole point of the book _What's the Matter with Kansas?_, which looks at why some of the staunchest supporters of the Republican party are some of those most hurt by their policies.]



True, but that book had a pretty shallow and superficial analysis of the mindset of the "subjects" and the "outcome" of the policies.


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## Rykion (Jul 14, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> I know it's business and all, but it seems that outbidding gamers at a gaming auction so you can sell the same items back to gamers at higher price seems unethical to me.




The store you describe definitely sounds like one not worth supporting.  The practice of buying goods at auction for resale is pretty common.  Most used car dealers, flea markets, and many antique/curio stores get some or all of their goods for sale in this manner.  There really isn't anything unethical about it unless the goods are not sold as "used" if they happen to be.


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## Jim Hague (Jul 14, 2005)

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> Except that he *can* afford the product.  The "luxury" he can't afford is the local gaming store.




Sorry, but no.  Complaining about the store has very little to do with the prices that store sets.  Aside from one shop out of the dozens I've been to through the years, every LGS I've been in has sold at or below MSRP.  If you're having to choose between a gaming product and _groceries_, you need to reprioritize.

And having worked many a customer service job...the customer is most assuredly _not_ always right.  Ask anyone who's worked in returns or tech support.  Often the customer feels entitled to be rude, selfish, lazy and unreasonable...none of which fits any definition of 'right' I'm familiar with.  The customer _can_ be right, but as in so many things, only if they bother to be informed.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Jul 14, 2005)

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> And having worked many a customer service job...the customer is most assuredly _not_ always right.  Ask anyone who's worked in returns or tech support.  Often the customer feels entitled to be rude, selfish, lazy and unreasonable...none of which fits any definition of 'right' I'm familiar with.  The customer _can_ be right, but as in so many things, only if they bother to be informed.




Oh, how true.  I could give examples of ungrateful wretches all day, but that would be bad.

Personally, I think that buying something online is cheating.  To me, shopping is when you go to a store and look for what you want, not when you go to a web site and put in your credit card number and they deliver it to you.  The only time I buy anything online is when I absolutely cannot find it in a physical store that I have access to, or if I know for a fact that I wouldn't be able to find it if I did look.  This, of course, is my opinion, and other peoples' mileage can vary.

I really like my FLGS, Dream Wizards, in Rockville, MD.  They stock Shadowrun, Battletech, and Exalted books, which my Barnes & Noble never will, and they're pretty much guaranteed to have the new WotC stuff in the day it comes out.  That they're on my way home from work is just gravy.  Their store is bright, clean, and doesn't smell, unlike some others I could rant about (cough*Compleat Strategist*cough).  The staff, while not gregariously friendly, is reasonably helpful, and they recognize me and my friends.  Heck, I don't even mind the "uphill both ways" walk to get there from the Metro station, since I can use the exercise.  

I'm also fond of Comic Quest, in Evansville, IN (which is where I fly to go visit my parents).  Every time I'm home, I make sure and purchase something there.

Brad


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## Tatsukun (Jul 14, 2005)

Ok, another Tatsukun example-

Well, you know, people have always wanted to communicate with loved ones living far away. Originally, they had to actually go visit. It took a long time, and was expensive. Then, somebody had the idea that everyone could write what they wanted to say down, and one guy could to the traveling. It was called writing a letter. It was pretty cheap, but it still took a long time. Visiting took a big downturn as people wrote more letters. People only traveled if it was important, and not usually more than a few times a year. 

Then, somebody had the idea of transmitting those letters over telegraph lines. It was pretty cheap, and instant. Suddenly nobody wrote letters for things that had to be sent quickly. For basic things, writing a letter (now called mail) was still fine because it was cheaper and you could send anything (like items). 

Next, somebody made the phone, which was somewhat cheap, instant, and of great quality. Quickly, the telegraph was dead. Mail still hung around because it had changed into package delivery. Visiting still hung in there, but only for important things. 
…..
So how many of you send telegraphs? Phones are cheaper, better quality, and much more convenient. How many people still write letters? Email is cheaper, faster, and just as good.  

Now, of course, these are all broad generalizations. There are plenty of exceptions for all these statements. But, in general, they are true IMO. 

So, should we hold a fund raising event to save the struggling telegraph operators who are being squeezed out by these huge phone companies? 

No. 

Starting a business is a kind of social contract, offered by the proprietor, and (hopefully) accepted by the customers. If I start an orange selling shop on main street USA, I am offering a contract…

I will…
Come to my shop a lot of hours in a week, and work hard at making it a good place
Provide oranges to people whenever they want them

The customer will
Give me enough money that I can pay my bills, and survive. 

If the amount of money I need to live is below the amount of money people are willing to give me for the oranges, I can survive. If it isn’t, I can’t survive. 

Online retailers are not evil. They just are more efficient. They need to be given less money to survive, so they can offer lower prices. 

Saying that you should support a LGS simply because it is local, and small, is like a local shop putting a sign in the window saying “I have five sick children, please give me money”. That’s charity. Charity is fine, but it’s not business. 

That said, if you can offer somehow better oranges, or dare I mix clichés, apples. You can survive. It sounds like Dristram’s shop is offering the proverbial apples. The question is, are you willing to pay enough money to keep him alive for the apples he is offering? I hope people are, it sounds like a nice shop. If I lived near him, I would probably buy his apples. 

I hope this made sense, I’m pretty tired right now. 

       -Tatsu


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## woodelf (Jul 14, 2005)

rgard said:
			
		

> Publishers would be able to stay in business if they could be reasonably confident that the direct sales, internet distributors and Borders sales could sustain them. They could lose it all on one title that the above didn't decide to buy.
> 
> Take the FLGSs out of the equation and you change everybody else's business model. That kind of change will destroy some of the smaller publishers at minimum and I suspect many of the larger ones as well.




Actually, the small publishers already can't afford the distributor/retailer model, and are either selling directly to retailers, or just plain selling direct. POD is making this increasingly possible. Kill the FLGS and the distributor, and the small publishers are untouched. The biggest ones (WotC, WWGS, maybe SJG) could probably adapt. It's everybody in between--IOW, everything else you actually see in the FLGS--that is likely to go away. Don't worry, the RPG industry will survive, in a slightly changed form.  Of course, "mainstream" customers may not like paying $22 for a 5x8, 100p, no-illustration softcover. But, hey, go ahead and kill the FLGS. I'm already paying those prices for most of my favorite games, so what do i care?


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## Mark Chance (Jul 14, 2005)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> Personally, I think that buying something online is cheating.




Can't really cheat at shopping. Unless, of course, you're shoplifting. Otherwise, there really aren't any rules to break.


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## Jim Hague (Jul 14, 2005)

woodelf said:
			
		

> Actually, the small publishers already can't afford the distributor/retailer model, and are either selling directly to retailers, or just plain selling direct. POD is making this increasingly possible. Kill the FLGS and the distributor, and the small publishers are untouched. The biggest ones (WotC, WWGS, maybe SJG) could probably adapt. It's everybody in between--IOW, everything else you actually see in the FLGS--that is likely to go away. Don't worry, the RPG industry will survive, in a slightly changed form.  Of course, "mainstream" customers may not like paying $22 for a 5x8, 100p, no-illustration softcover. But, hey, go ahead and kill the FLGS. I'm already paying those prices for most of my favorite games, so what do i care?




The ignorance of the current distribution model in the above statement is just...wow.  Really.  Seriously, go do some research.  Go to the Forge, go to RPG.Net and IPR.  Talk to people in the hobby and industry.  Educate yourself.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 14, 2005)

> Saying that you should support a LGS simply because it is local, and small, is like a local shop putting a sign in the window saying “I have five sick children, please give me money”. That’s charity. Charity is fine, but it’s not business.




That's not the position being espoused by me...

I'm saying support the _good_ LGS's because:

1) the lower prices from large online retailers are due to those retailers being able to get a better price than any LGS- and not by being meritorious businesses, but often by excercising market power to exact lower prices or by cross-subsidy (to points that may be illegal, aka predatory pricing).  If you see a game available online for 50%LGS prices...and that price is the retailer's REGULAR price, its more likely that the retailer is screwing the supplier or its competition than it is that your LGS is screwing you.  If you've read this whole thread, you've seen actual LGS owners point out that there are online retailers selling game product more cheaply than they can purchase it.

2) generally speaking, the large retailers have no emotional tie to the hobby- RPGs are just another commodity they could yank from the shelves in 24 hours if they became "unprofitable" or "unwelcome in the community," or even demand that "changes" be made.  Wal-Mart does stuff like this routinely...Willie Nelson is being forced to change his cover art on the new album.

This would not be charity- it is "enlightened self-interest."


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## Mark Chance (Jul 14, 2005)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> If you see a game available online for 50%LGS prices...and that price is the retailer's REGULAR price, its more likely that the retailer is screwing the supplier or its competition....




But a larger entity, say everyone's second favorite whipping boy Amazon, has no moral obligation to ensure that small businesses remain viable. Likewise, neither do I. I don't mind helping out small businesses if it fits my desires, budget, et cetera, but that small business being outdone by a larger competitor isn't an example of a screwing. It's simply the way things almost always are when a small business faces a larger competitor.



			
				Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> generally speaking, the large retailers have no emotional tie to the hobby-




Not that I buy a lot of game stuff, since I already own everything I'll ever need and then some (and so really don't have a dog in this rather pointless fight), but what is the sticker price of an "emotional tie"?


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## woodelf (Jul 14, 2005)

PJ-Mason said:
			
		

> There always will be a business to serve their gaming needs. It just may not be a LGS, or it won't be one that fits the stereotype of your typical LGS. But the eventual evolution of the LGS is probably a whole nuther thread!




Now, personally, i think that RPGs won't die, at least not while this generation of gamers is alive. But that's not the same as saying that there will "always be a business to serve their gaming needs". That's just foolish talk--as in any luxury good. If the minimum production cost to produce the sort of RPG book that gamers wants rises to $30, and the average gamer is unwilling to pay more than $25 for such a book, no one will produce them. That is, of course, an extreme example, and we're not likely to ever get ther, but just taking it as a given that someone will always be willing to produce something at a price the market will bear--or conversely, that the market will always pay what it costs someone to produce something--is foolish.  Given the number of people on this thread who're unwilling to pay $40 for a full-color hardcover ~250p book, i can see it coming to that. 

See, absent the FLGS, the RPG industry doesn't die--it gets smaller and more specialized. Fewer outlets for sales mean fewer sales, mean lower production runs, mean higher costs (or lower quality, or both). We can look at existing indie RPGs to get an idea of what no-distributor, no-retailer, low-risk RPGs look like: ~$20+ for softcover, 6x9, 100pp, B&W, minimal illos. So, pay $40 now, or pay half as much for 20% of the wordcount, softcover, and no color, later. And most of these guys won't sell to Amazon, because of the discounting (not in price, but in what they're paid), so don't expect to get these books at a discount any more.


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## rgard (Jul 14, 2005)

woodelf said:
			
		

> Actually, the small publishers already can't afford the distributor/retailer model, and are either selling directly to retailers, or just plain selling direct. POD is making this increasingly possible. Kill the FLGS and the distributor, and the small publishers are untouched. The biggest ones (WotC, WWGS, maybe SJG) could probably adapt. It's everybody in between--IOW, everything else you actually see in the FLGS--that is likely to go away. Don't worry, the RPG industry will survive, in a slightly changed form.  Of course, "mainstream" customers may not like paying $22 for a 5x8, 100p, no-illustration softcover. But, hey, go ahead and kill the FLGS. I'm already paying those prices for most of my favorite games, so what do i care?




Sorry, I don't think you've done your homework on this one.

On a side note, I do think it would be funny if the folks buying their stuff on-line for the savings could succeed in convincing their internet distributor to let them run some gaming sessions in his or her warehouse!  

Of course he or she may have a virtual warehouse and you may need to ask the distributor to let you run some sessions in his or her living room.

The only draw back is that if you did convince the distributor to host some game sessions...you may have to travel a couple hundred or couple thousand miles to get there.


Rich


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## rgard (Jul 14, 2005)

Samothdm said:
			
		

> I've said this before in other threads on the subject, but I wish some of the stores that seem to exist in the Midwest existed here in Los Angeles, the *second biggest city in the United States!*.  I just don't get it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Sorry to hear about them.  I would love to do a make-over for them (wouldn't that be the niche profession of niche professions?...game store makeovers), but I probably need to focus on getting mine into profitability first.

All the negative and positive reviews of game store staff has started me thinking about what type of person I should hire when I get to the point of hiring.

This discussion is helping me.  

Thanks,
Rich


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## pogre (Jul 14, 2005)

woodelf said:
			
		

> Actually, the small publishers already can't afford the distributor/retailer model, and are either selling directly to retailers, or just plain selling direct. POD is making this increasingly possible. Kill the FLGS and the distributor, and the small publishers are untouched. The biggest ones (WotC, WWGS, maybe SJG) could probably adapt. It's everybody in between--IOW, everything else you actually see in the FLGS--that is likely to go away. Don't worry, the RPG industry will survive, in a slightly changed form.  Of course, "mainstream" customers may not like paying $22 for a 5x8, 100p, no-illustration softcover. But, hey, go ahead and kill the FLGS. I'm already paying those prices for most of my favorite games, so what do i care?




Take it from someone familiar intimately with the small publishers - you've missed the mark badly here.

edit: should have read a bit further - I see others have taken you to task for these statements. My apology for the dogpile.


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## woodelf (Jul 14, 2005)

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> The ignorance of the current distribution model in the above statement is just...wow. Really. Seriously, go do some research. Go to the Forge, go to RPG.Net and IPR. Talk to people in the hobby and industry. Educate yourself.




_v. 2_
I'm plenty educated--i've spent extensive time learning from all those places you site, and then some.

So somebody please educate me. As i understand it, the standard three-tier distribution model is 60% discount to the distributor, 40% discount to the retailer. Further, i know for a fact that a fair number of indie RPGs have specifically eschewed distribution because their costs are higher and tehy are either unable or unwilling to take the cut that distribution requires. [I'm not naming names only because i don't know for which of them this is a publicly-stated position; they may not want to alienate distributors, in case they change their mind in the future.] It is also a fact that the indie-press RPGs are, generally, done in much smaller print runs and have much higher prices coupled with lower production values than those who run through the three-tier system. Compare Dogs in the Vineyard ar Wyrd is Bond to Werewolf: the Forsaken or Spycraft. 

So, where'd i go wrong? If none of those facts are wrong, in what way are my conclusions disjoint from them? A bunch of people saying "you're wrong", but not providing any corrections, isn't very helpful.


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## pogre (Jul 14, 2005)

rgard said:
			
		

> All the negative and positive reviews of game store staff has started me thinking about what type of person I should hire when I get to the point of hiring.
> 
> This discussion is helping me.
> 
> ...




One nightmare I have heard often repeated involves employee theft or colluding with thieves. In an industry with slim margins, theft loss is even more serious. I think the only solutions available are: 1. some sort of surveillance system; or 2. modified profit sharing to give the employee an interest in making sure the store is not ripped off.

Good luck,

pogre


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## Elephant (Jul 14, 2005)

HinterWelt said:
			
		

> An aside to the Minnesota gamers. Some have mentioned the Source and Phoenix. Has anyone checked out Phantasy in Shakopee, Village Games in Anoka or Unicorn Games in Woodbury? I am a big fan of Village Games. I have noticed some of the problems mentioned in this thread with the Source. I am mostly indifferent to them I have tried to run demos there but to no avail as they are crowded.
> 
> Bill




I don't really like Unicorn Games.  The owner kind of creeps me out, the store has a faintly disinviting vibe to it, and I've had a bad experience there.

About a year ago, an RPGA game had been scheduled for a Saturday, and I went there with a friend to get in on the game (we were curious about what RPGA play was like).  When we got there, the game was MIA.  After we waited a good half hour, the owner finally came over to us and gave us a -and-bull story about why the game wasn't happening (something about the GM moving it to a friend's house or something lame like that).  As recompense for the inconvenience, he offered a slight discount on the newly-released Eberron book.  No thanks - in exchange for my convenience, you try to get me to buy something?  Forget it.

Oh, and the store is in Oakdale, not Woodbury


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## woodelf (Jul 14, 2005)

GlassJaw said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone said supporting or not supporting your LGS is or isn't stupid. However, I've gotten a tone from some of the "supporters" that those who don't support their LGS are killing the hobby or some nonsense. Some of the posts sound a little "holier than thou" is all (IMO).




I don't think you're killing the hobby if you don't support the LGS. And i don't advocate supporting a crappy LGS. I'm saying that _if_ you get any value out of the FLGS, you should support it proportionately. _and_ I claim that most people are getting more value out of it than they are factoring into the equation.


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## Victrix (Jul 14, 2005)

Fascinating thread. I have to say, out of all of the gaming stores I've visited, I've only encountered a *tiny* handful of people at any of them that I was comfortable spending time with, or interacting on any social level. The bulk were of the fat/greasy/unkempt/unwashed/loud/obnoxious type. This may not be a popular statement, as it seems dangerously close to a rude stereotype, but it's the flat truth. I can't get several of my good friends to go near the stores (and truth be told, I don't much enjoy going there myself for the most part), and myself and my friends *are* self avowed geeks of various sorts (be it computer games, cars, music, or something else). The people that I've encountered at the gaming stores were largely so unappealing that I would be embarassed to have my girlfriend drop by.

So that's one major problem. The other is obviously price (which has been gone over in detail in this thread, so I won't harp on it much). I can buy the three 3.5 core books on [online store of choice] for ~$60, or I can buy them at LGS for $120. Similar price differences for other products. For me at least, the intangible added value that the local store can add simply isn't there. Without a different staff, clientele, and atmosphere, I'm not going to spend my money or my time there, and I'm not going to bring my friends there either.

This conversation reminds me of similar discussions one of my friends told me about, with the US arcade industry dying, and arcade fighting game fans flocking to online sites and organizing regional tournaments to keep playing (eg, www.shoryuken.com). The parallels are striking - they complained about smelly, dark, unpleasant arcades staffed by incompetent employees and frequented by rather unsavory types, and the industry was killed by more cost effective versions of the same games that could be comfortably played at home. The similarities only run so far, but I definitely don't see roleplaying croaking completely because LGS are going out of business for one reason or another. Small niche markets with intensely loyal customers tend to stick around in one form or another, and the internet is empowering to communities of any sort.

I genuinely wish I had a nice local gaming store to frequent, but for me, it's a mythical beast. I'll probably just keep ordering games online and playing them with friends.


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## GlassJaw (Jul 14, 2005)

> and I claim that most people are getting more value out of it than they are factoring into the equation.




Honestly, if I never walked into a LGS again it wouldn't matter to me at all.  I don't need them.  I have ebay, Amazon, The War Store, etc. to get anything I need for both RPG and mini/painting supplies.

Actually, I need craft stores like Michael's more than I need a LGS.  Nevermind books and stuff, have you ever bought brushes or paint or primer at a LGS?  Yikes.  The price difference is insane, especially considering you need to buy things like that over and over again.  You only need to buy a book once.


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## PJ-Mason (Jul 14, 2005)

woodelf said:
			
		

> Now, personally, i think that RPGs won't die, at least not while this generation of gamers is alive. But that's not the same as saying that there will "always be a business to serve their gaming needs". That's just foolish talk--





Not hardly. There will always be Indie pubs that do it for love, rather than a living. They will always be there *in some form*. You'll get maybe more places like RPGNOW (a mix of full and part timers...mostly part timers right now). Maybe just local game publishers that serve their neighbors and maybe the next few towns over (not needing massive shipments or delivery systems).  The future of the P&P (since the future of internet publishing is now) industry may be a company that has their own printing press maybe. Who could possibly predict all the permutations. So i say it again, there will always be an industry, it just may not look like the one we have now. Which freaks out a few people, especially those who are currently trying to make a living in present system. Which i understand and appreciate. Its all speculation at this point though, since the current P&P industry setup isn't going out of business just yet.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Jul 14, 2005)

Rykion said:
			
		

> The store you describe definitely sounds like one not worth supporting.  The practice of buying goods at auction for resale is pretty common.  Most used car dealers, flea markets, and many antique/curio stores get some or all of their goods for sale in this manner.  There really isn't anything unethical about it unless the goods are not sold as "used" if they happen to be.



I know, I've been told that before.  I have no idea if he advertised them as used or not though.  I don't think he did, they were in basically new condition.  I was told by one of my friends "sure, he'll sell it for full price, they are basically new and probably a lot cheaper than his wholesalers".

Then again, he sells off all his free samples from conventions he goes to as well.  Says it pays for the trips.


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## Dristram (Jul 14, 2005)

*I think I'm noticing something*

After reading all these posts, I think I've noticed something that is causing this rift between gamers.

Some gamers like, and prefer to shop for their gaming stuff at a store that specializes in their hobby.  They don't want to see their game store(s) go away.  And some want them so much that they'll even buy from less professional game stores.  When they walk into a game store, it's like the preverbal "kid in a candy store" feeling to them.  I’ll call these “game store fans”.  I’m one of these types   

Other gamers couldn't care less if they have a local game store because without one, they can still get their gaming stuff online or big book stores.  They don't get any real thrill out of walking into a store where they are surrounded by the games they like.  And they don’t have any real need for game space (because they play at home) or need to find gamers (because they have their longstanding gaming group already).  Also, the online stores, with their discounts, have devalued RPGs (and other games), lessening the value-add of a local game store.

Most game store owners are “game store fans” that are trying to live their dream of running their own game store.  Many assumed most gamers are like them and since the proliferation of on-line stores, are surprised at just how many aren’t, which worries them.  Other “game store fans” see the struggle their beloved game stores face and wish more gamers would be like them and may get frustrated that they aren’t, because if all gamers would choose to patronize their local game shop, they’d flourish.

Thus, the conflict we see here.

I think I may be rambling now, so I think that’s it.  How does it sound?

One last observance.  Not all owners of game stores care about the gaming hobby.  Some game store owners do what they do because they think they can make money at it.  I think a lot of these types were created during the booms of Magic and Pokemon, and then supported by the smaller Yu-Gi-Oh! and Clix crazes.  I'd hasten to guess a lot of them used to be owners of baseball card shops and saw gaming as a way to stay in business.  They’re always on the lookout for the “next big thing” and an "angle" on how to turn a quick buck.  They're chasing the gaming "fads".  Unfortunately, gamers, particularly RPGers, don’t feel very welcome in those kinds of stores because RPGs are not of much interest to these kinds of owners.  And those stores can give “game stores” a bad rap, which it truly unfortunate.

(-Brad
Owner, Gamer’s Keepe


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 15, 2005)

> Dannyalcatraz
> If you see a game available online for 50%LGS prices...and that price is the retailer's REGULAR price, its more likely that the retailer is screwing the supplier or its competition



....




> But a larger entity, say everyone's second favorite whipping boy Amazon, has no moral obligation to ensure that small businesses remain viable.




No they don't.  That's competition.  However, the use monopoly/oligopoly power (as opposed to merely being better competitors) to overwhelm smaller companies is, by definition, anticompetitive, and could be an illegal trade practice.

One example of that is using "predatory pricing" - THAT is a crime, first under the Sherman Anti-trust act, then under the UCC, then under numerous state codes.  The problem is, regardless of whose law, its a very difficult and expensive crime to prove.  As such, it usually gets invoked only in major cases, like when the Japanese automakers were caught undercutting their own prices to get market share in the USA in the 1970's or when certain airlines tried to drive others out of business.  Wal-Mart is being investigated for it in several states.

For the LGS's to allege it is easy- most of the retailers undercutting them are major conglomerates who can sell a product below cost indefinitely to gain marketshare/ gain a monopoly.  For LGS's to prove predatory pricing- not so much.



> Dannyalcatraz
> generally speaking, the large retailers have no emotional tie to the hobby-






> Not that I buy a lot of game stuff, since I already own everything I'll ever need and then some (and so really don't have a dog in this rather pointless fight), but what is the sticker price of an "emotional tie"?




The point was that a large retailer could drop their entire RPG product line in a day and replace it with something else once they've destroyed the local competion.  LGS's tend to sell a lot of other products that large retailers like- comics, certain toys, certain games, and most importantly, certain products that tie into major movies and franchises, like Star Wars, Star Trek, X-Men, etc.

Just a side note as an example:  30 or so years ago, a Mom & Pop toy store was commonplace.  Then came chains like Toys-R-Us and Kay-Bee.  Now, Wal-Mart is the #1 toyseller in the world, beating the competition by so much, Toys-R-Us is considering divesting itself of its toy stores (CNN)!

Monopolies and Oligopolies are good for things like utilities, not for supporting hobbies.


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## JesterPoet (Jul 15, 2005)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> Personally, I think that buying something online is cheating.




This is, quite possibly, one of the most absurd things I've ever heard.


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## Dristram (Jul 15, 2005)

*Online store competition*

I just had a thought about the online business and competition amongst themselves.  It would seem that Amazon.com is to independent online stores, like Wal-Marts and B&Ns are to "brick & mortar" stores.  I just compared the price of Weapons of Legacy on Amazon vs. the ENWorld shop.  Amazon's price is $23.07 ($11.88 savings) and ENWorld's is $31.46 ($3.49 savings).  Small online stores need to find ways to get customers to buy from them instead of Amazon.com.  How do they do it?  For ENWorld, it’s easy.  It offers an online gaming community.  But what about others that all they have to offer is an online store?

BTW, one thing I wish would happen are online purchases being subjected to sales tax.  Even if online stores don't offer a discount, because they don't charge sales tax, customers are getting a discount.  That inherently puts FLGSs at a disadvantage.  Online stores offering a discount on top of that is like adding insult to injury.

(-Brad
Owner, Gamer's Keepe


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## ShinHakkaider (Jul 15, 2005)

Dristram said:
			
		

> After reading all these posts, I think I've noticed something that is causing this rift between gamers.
> 
> Some gamers like, and prefer to shop for their gaming stuff at a store that specializes in their hobby.  They don't want to see their game store(s) go away.  And some want them so much that they'll even buy from less professional game stores.  When they walk into a game store, it's like the preverbal "kid in a candy store" feeling to them.  I’ll call these “game store fans”.  I’m one of these types
> 
> ...




I think that's pretty accurate, at least from where I'm standing. I used to be in that first group many years ago, now I'm in the second group. Also I live in NY and there are a LOT of other things to do than sit inside and game. That's not to say that I dont value gaming but I'm not a shut in, especially on a bright sunny day when I can be outside with my son. I also cant bring myself to be too excited to be around "my fellow gamers", often I've found alot (not all of them, but enough) of them to be judgemental, lacking in real social skills and sometimes just plain rude. So yeah, I'm the guy that will walk into a game store (when I used to partonize my regular place) get what I need, converse with the staff a little and get out.


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## ShinHakkaider (Jul 15, 2005)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> I think that's pretty accurate, at least from where I'm standing. I used to be in that first group many years ago, now I'm in the second group. Also I live in NY and there are a LOT of other things to do than sit inside and game. That's not to say that I dont value gaming but I'm not a shut in, especially on a bright sunny day when I can be outside with my son. I also cant bring myself to be too excited to be around "my fellow gamers", often I've found alot (not all of them, but enough) of them to be judgemental, lacking in real social skills and sometimes just plain rude. So yeah, I'm the guy that will walk into a game store (when I used to partonize my regular place) get what I need, converse with the staff a little and get out.




Also, and this is going to sound a little messed up, but you can blame places like ENworld also  . Because for the most part I find out about games and other materials from this place (the boards and review) so the things that sound interesting and good to me I just order, whether it be hardcopy or PDF. I dont really need to browse through it, if it's from one of my consistent and reliable commpanies (Malhavoc, Green Ronin, etc.) then 9 times out of 10 there's something that I can use from it. Also I'm not as hypercritical of gaming material as some of the people here are so if it gets a stamp of approval from this lot then it's bound to be at least useful. I've been burned a few times but not bad enough to make me not trust this place.


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## ShinHakkaider (Jul 15, 2005)

JesterPoet said:
			
		

> This is, quite possibly, one of the most absurd things I've ever heard.




I was thinking the same thing but you put it alot nicer than I would have. 

...but yeah, what he said...


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jul 15, 2005)

Dristram said:
			
		

> BTW, one thing I wish would happen are online purchases being subjected to sales tax.  Even if online stores don't offer a discount, because they don't charge sales tax, customers are getting a discount.  That inherently puts FLGSs at a disadvantage.  Online stores offering a discount on top of that is like adding insult to injury.




Sales Tax based upon what? Where the buyer lives?  Talk about your logistical nightmare.  In New York state, the sales tax has a state, county and possibly even a town component.  You would need to have a complete breakdown of sales taxes, and the reporting to each state would suck.  I know, that isn't your problem, why should you care since they already have the advantage on your LGS.  

I guess it doesn't matter too much to me since my FLGS is located in sales tax-free New Hampshire.


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## Diremede (Jul 15, 2005)

My local gaming store rocks, if you guys have a lame one, well I feel sorry for you.  Where I used to live they had two really crappy LGS's, simply because they were more comic book and figurine stores than RPG stores, though they did carry RPG books.  Where I live now the store is definitely RPG oriented, and has a ton of great books and mini's, they have a large gaming room in the back, and the owners are some great people.  If its out there and I want it, I check the gaming shop first, if they don't carry it, then I will go to the internet to buy the books, but only as a last resort.  

I say support your local gaming store if its a good one, with good people.


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## Dristram (Jul 16, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Sales Tax based upon what? Where the buyer lives?  Talk about your logistical nightmare.



I was thinking a generic internet sales tax based on some fair average.


> I guess it doesn't matter too much to me since my FLGS is located in sales tax-free New Hampshire.



And that's where my idea would problably flop.  Not all states have sales tax, so taxing all internet sales would be unfair.  It would be best to be based upon where the customer lives, but you're correct when you say that would be a logistical nightmare.  Ah well  :\ 

(-Brad Daeda
Owner, Gamer's Keepe
Vacaville, CA


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 16, 2005)

There are already multiple committees out there contemplating how to tax internet sales- and I mean that its occurred to more than one country that online sales are costing them revenue.

2 most likely online taxation schemes, IMHO:

1) Tax everything a certain %.  Tax goes to single international fund.  Annual disbursements to countries based on proportion of internet sales in fiscal year.

2) Tax everything based on tax rate of address to which something is shipped.  Yes, there are ways around this- mainly mass orders- but generally speaking, they cost more than the tax.


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## ssampier (Jul 16, 2005)

Interesting discussion.

I think a good comparison is other industries. In my small, rural towns, I can name three computer stores. All these stores do computer repair. I repair my own PC, so that service is moot to me. They have a very limited software and hardware selection with very high markups. I buy my hardware and software online because of this. I may be a capitalistic pig, but I see no reason to support a company that won't provide the products I desire. If they would stock more products I may be inclined to shop there.

As for the FLGS, I have one FLGS in my area. It's a model/hobby shop crammed with annoying pre-teens that play Magic loudly and snicker at anyone "uncool" who comes in; I'm a young man, but still twice their age. Everytime I tried to examine a product, the owner hovers over me like I'm wasting his time (so he can go back to selling overpriced cards). Needless to say I see no reason to buy cover on books I can buy more comfortably online. If the shop gave me a 10% discount and provided better service I may be inclined to shop there.


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## was (Jul 16, 2005)

Dristram said:
			
		

> BTW, one thing I wish would happen are online purchases being subjected to sales tax.  Even if online stores don't offer a discount, because they don't charge sales tax, customers are getting a discount.  That inherently puts FLGSs at a disadvantage.  Online stores offering a discount on top of that is like adding insult to injury.




I am uncertain as to whether or not the lack of a sales tax online really ends up providing a discount.  In my experience the S/H payed for buying online far exceeds what the average consumer would have payed in sales taxes.  Especially when you consider the number of on-line vendors who overreport the weight of the purchase in order to make up some of that 'discounted' price in shipping and handling charges.  I buy most of my on-line stuff from eBay and have fell prey to that scam more times than I care to admit.


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## Mark Chance (Jul 16, 2005)

was said:
			
		

> I am uncertain as to whether or not the lack of a sales tax online really ends up providing a discount.  In my experience the S/H payed for buying online far exceeds what the average consumer would have payed in sales taxes.  Especially when you consider the number of on-line vendors who overreport the weight of the purchase in order to make up some of that 'discounted' price in shipping and handling charges.  I buy most of my on-line stuff from eBay and have fell prey to that scam more times than I care to admit.




_Caveat emptor_ is always good advice.

I purchase few game books, but when I do, I either pick up something far below cover price on eBay, which makes shipping less of a concern, or for larger purchases, buy sufficient merchandise from Amazon to have S&H waived.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 17, 2005)

Usually, the best practice for saving on S&H is to make larger orders spaced out over more time.  S&H charges tend to cap out or drop in per unit or per pound price after a certain point...depending on retailer.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Jul 17, 2005)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> I was thinking the same thing but you put it alot nicer than I would have.
> 
> ...but yeah, what he said...




Personal opinion, remember?  If I can't go and find something in a store AT ALL, I feel it's okay.

I'm not saying that ordering online is bad.  I'm saying I don't like to do it unless I have to.

Brad


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## Dristram (Jul 18, 2005)

*Browsing the store, and buying online.*

Saturday I was reminded of one thing that bugs the heck out of me.  I had a guy come in my store checking out my board games.  I greeted him and asked if he was looking for anything in particular.  He said no, that he was just checking out some games he wanted to buy.  I said great, just let me know if you need any help.  He said he wouldn't, that he be buying them online.  And that he wasn't going to pay the retail "ripoff price".  I was dumbfounded and in shock.  At that moment, I noticed customers at my counter wanting to buy some things, so I had to leave that guy be.  He left before I could talk to him again.  Okay, so he feels the retail is too high.  Fine.  But to use a store to check out the product before buying online is just unfair.

Last year I had a customer come in that had only been in a few times before.  He always looked at the RPG books for a short time, then left.  I always greeted him and and let him know that if he needed any assistance, to just ask.  That time, he asked.  He said he was looking to start a new campaign and wanted information about FR and what other books would be helpful.  He told me the style of his campaign and I spent 30 min. going over the books for him.  He thanked me and said he'd have to think about it.  He came in about a month later and I asked if he'd decided on which books to get.  And he named off about 5 or 6.  I asked if he was ready to get them, and he told me that he already purchased them from Amazon.  I was pissed!  But I kept my cool, and tried to explain to him that if he was going to buy online, that it was unfair to browse the books in my store.  He said that I should drop my prices then.  I explained why I couldn't, and a light seem to go on in his head.  He left.  About a week later, he came in, browsed the shelves, and bought some books and asked to special order some others.  I special ordered the books for him and had them in the next day.  He picked them up two weeks later.  Then I didn't see him for a while.  He came in last month and had about 5 books to buy.  Awesome!  I thought.  He then presented me an American Express Card, which my CC system doesn't take.  He asked when I closed and that he'd be back with a regular CC.  It's been over a month.  My feeling is he bought them online.  My paranoia tells me he knew my system didn't take AmEx and used that excuse to browse my shelves making me think he was going to buy them rom me, not online.  We shall see.

These are just two extreme exampes I have.  I hear almost weekly from non-regular customers how since discovering internet pricing, they just can't get themselves to buy full retail.  My most recent example is a guy who came in starting to get into board games.  He mentioned about 4 he was curious about and wondered if there were some reviews he could read.  I directed him to boardgamegeek.com.  He has since become an online customer   

Anyway, I hope those of you who shop online, only browse online as well.

(-Brad
Owner, Gamer's Keepe
Vacaville, CA


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jul 18, 2005)

Dristram said:
			
		

> Okay, so he feels the retail is too high.  Fine.  But to use a store to check out the product before buying online is just unfair.



Indeed, I agree. In fact I would go further and say it is unethical.

I'm not Jewish (in fact I'm Lutheran), but I have grown up in a suburb of Minneapolis that was the regional jewish enclave in Minnesota, so I was exposed to many things Jewish growning up. Oy! the number of bar mitzvah's I attended as a kid.  St. Louis Park, home of Al Franken, the Coen brothers, and Thomas Friedman (of the NY Times).

Anyway, I had heard mention of an almost unknown jewish law from the Talmud called The Shopkeeper's Law. It basically says, "[/i]One is not permitted to ask the storekeeper the price of an item if he knows he will not purchase it.[/i]" I have read some extend this to browsing and taking up a shopkeeper's time knowing you will never purchase either, that is, just _not asking_ the price doesn't the browser get off clean. You are actively fooling the shopkeeping and making them waste their time and effort. Time is money. If this is an hourly wage employee, you have practically stolen the portion of the hourly wage from that employee to entertain you.


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## Tetsubo (Jul 18, 2005)

pogre said:
			
		

> One nightmare I have heard often repeated involves employee theft or colluding with thieves. In an industry with slim margins, theft loss is even more serious. I think the only solutions available are: 1. some sort of surveillance system; or 2. modified profit sharing to give the employee an interest in making sure the store is not ripped off.
> 
> Good luck,
> 
> pogre




I know of a B&N store that stopped carrying gaming books for that reason, theft. They literally couldn't keep the books on the shelves...


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## PJ-Mason (Jul 18, 2005)

Dristram said:
			
		

> He left before I could talk to him again.  Okay, so he feels the retail is too high.  Fine.  But to use a store to check out the product before buying online is just unfair.
> 
> Anyway, I hope those of you who shop online, only browse online as well.
> 
> ...




That *is* pretty low. Bizarre, as well. There are numerous places to get reviews and looks at games online.


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## Jarrod (Jul 18, 2005)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> Indeed, I agree. In fact I would go further and say it is unethical.
> 
> I'm not Jewish (in fact I'm Lutheran), but I have grown up in a suburb of Minneapolis that was the regional jewish enclave in Minnesota, so I was exposed to many things Jewish growning up. Oy! the number of bar mitzvah's I attended as a kid.  St. Louis Park, home of Al Franken, the Coen brothers, and Thomas Friedman (of the NY Times).
> 
> Anyway, I had heard mention of an almost unknown jewish law from the Talmud called The Shopkeeper's Law. It basically says, "[/i]One is not permitted to ask the storekeeper the price of an item if he knows he will not purchase it.[/i]" I have read some extend this to browsing and taking up a shopkeeper's time knowing you will never purchase either, that is, just _not asking_ the price doesn't the browser get off clean. You are actively fooling the shopkeeping and making them waste their time and effort. Time is money. If this is an hourly wage employee, you have practically stolen the portion of the hourly wage from that employee to entertain you.





It is completely unethical. You're using false pretenses to waste someone's time. Even if you come in and say "no, I don't need help", you're inflicting wear on materials and taking up space. 

I love the Shopkeeper's Law. It's a great example of the sorts of things that a bunch of educated people (the rabbis) with a reputation for scholarship will create and write down. It's only polite, but I love that it's _written down_. 

And another vote on the "that's just lame". Lame lame lame lame lame.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jul 18, 2005)

Dristram said:
			
		

> Saturday I was reminded of one thing that bugs the heck out of me.  I had a guy come in my store checking out my board games.  I greeted him and asked if he was looking for anything in particular.  He said no, that he was just checking out some games he wanted to buy.  I said great, just let me know if you need any help.  He said he wouldn't, that he be buying them online.  And that he wasn't going to pay the retail "ripoff price".  I was dumbfounded and in shock.  At that moment, I noticed customers at my counter wanting to buy some things, so I had to leave that guy be.  He left before I could talk to him again.  Okay, so he feels the retail is too high.  Fine.  But to use a store to check out the product before buying online is just unfair.
> 
> Anyway, I hope those of you who shop online, only browse online as well.
> 
> ...




I cannot say that I'm 100% free of doing this, but usually that is because I went to the store with some other intent, saw something interesting that I could not purchase that day, and sometime later ordered it online.  Most of the time if I go into a store, I walk out with what I went there for, unless once I see it I realize it isn't what I needed.  Of course I'm one of those silly people that thinks supporting a store that carries products I like is a good thing.  As I've said in ealier posts, I have no problem buying things online and do it a decent amount, but I like being able to shop in a store and, in my opinion, buying from the store who is giving me what I want is the right thing to do - as long as the place treats me well and charges fair prices.


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## TheYeti1775 (Jul 18, 2005)

The biggest issue from reading all 11 pages, is pricing.

You have a couple of camps of thought here.
1. Save at any cost.
2. Browse the store, buy online.
3. Save but if only $1-2 difference most likely buy it in the store.
4. Store only, because no credit card for online purchasing.
5. Store only.
6. No Store local.
7. Local Store is terrible.
8. Savings to great to pass.

Camp 1 - Maybe they can't afford to buy every supplement at full price.  But guess what they can afford 2 for the price of one.  For those in this camp it is too hard to ignore the $12-15 savings on the overall cost.  Can you blame them, figure the 'target' consumer for this product is 12-30.  So either the parent is buying or the consumer is just starting life and paying their own way.  Anyone that's been to college or in the Military knows the Raman Diet and that it goes good when cooked in beer.

Camp 2 - Considered the storekeeps nightmare.  But I present this, would you not go around to several different dealerships to buy your car?  What is Dealer One, had a car you wanted.  So does Dealer Two.  Dealer One has a track to try the car out on, Two only has around the block.  Dealer One has free coffe and doughnuts, with other car lovers to talk with.  Dealer Two doesn't.  Dealer One is 10 miles further down the road than Dealer Two.  Dealer One charges $5,000 more for the same vehicle.  Which one are you shoping at, even though you browsed both.
Yes it is low, as far as taking up your time.  But guess what, he probably did buy the books online.  Because he had them in hand, and your store didn't take that credit card (personnally I prefer to use cash).  So he gets home and comes to the realization, he doesn't need them right away.  And Amazon will take his card, so order them online.  Forget about having to get back up and drive into town to pay more.

Camp 3 - This is the camp I fall into.  If I'm at the store, they have what I want and when I want it, I will most likely buy it.  Most of those in this camp are impluse buyers.  If there is only a dollar or two, and I'm already in the shop, heck why not.

Camp 4 - This camp is two parts.
  Part 1: This will be your younger crowd.  They save and pinch their money worse than Camp 1.  Generally they will only be buying "core" books and not many of your extra goodies.
  Part 2: This will just be people that don't have Credit Cards for numerous reasons.  They will frugally shop but they will buy, just not much.  Generally they have already done the research on what they are buying as well, or it is a complete impluse buy.

Camp 5 - These are the LGS dream, they are loyal unquestioningly.  They only buy from the store for various reasons.

Camp 6 - Easily explained why they go online.

Camp 7 - LGS is terrible.  A lot of stores fall into this category unfortunately.  It could be crowded (no space to move in, not because of people), the staff could just plain suck.  It could be any number of factors.  It could because of the smelly fat guy at the register sleeping half the time your in the store (Those that live near me, will probably know the store I talk about on that one.).

Camp 8 - Then that leaves the too good of a deal crowd.  I'm sure like me numerous individuals balked at the $100 price tag on WLD.  Guess what the games stores still sell it for $100, Amazon has it marked at $60.  Sorry $40 isn't worth it to me, for that I could order 2 other books off Amazon.  And if I'm a member of their program it puts me that much closer to those free $$$ on Amazon.

So all and all, I have one real question for you LGS owners.
If Amazon can sell it for $15 less, what's to stop you from buying 10 copies from them and selling them for $5 more?  He!! use their free shipping, you get to offer a savings off the cover price and still get to make that small margin.


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## Mark Chance (Jul 18, 2005)

Jarrod said:
			
		

> It is completely unethical. You're using false pretenses to waste someone's time. Even if you come in and say "no, I don't need help", you're inflicting wear on materials and taking up space.




This is absurd. So, browsers in a store shopping around for the best price are unethical. That's a good one. "False pretenses." Since a pretense is, by definition, false, would that make a "false pretense" a true motive? More pointedly: Since when did a shopper become morally obligated to make a purchase just by walking through the shop's door? "Inflicting wear on materials"? Equally ridiculous. But here's the cake-taker: "...and taking up space." Ye gods! I take up space everywhere I go! Is there no escape from my criminality?

If you own a store, and don't want people browsing in your store, shrink wrap everything and put up a big sign that says, "You Can Look at It after You've Bought It!"

I bet that'll help sales.


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## freebfrost (Jul 18, 2005)

Dristram said:
			
		

> Saturday I was reminded of one thing that bugs the heck out of me.  I had a guy come in my store checking out my board games.  I greeted him and asked if he was looking for anything in particular.  He said no, that he was just checking out some games he wanted to buy.  I said great, just let me know if you need any help.  He said he wouldn't, that he be buying them online.  And that he wasn't going to pay the retail "ripoff price".  I was dumbfounded and in shock.  At that moment, I noticed customers at my counter wanting to buy some things, so I had to leave that guy be.  He left before I could talk to him again.  Okay, so he feels the retail is too high.  Fine.  But to use a store to check out the product before buying online is just unfair.



So, I take it you don't test drive cars, you just go to a dealer and buy one right?


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## TheYeti1775 (Jul 18, 2005)

Mark Chance said:
			
		

> This is absurd. So, browsers in a store shopping around for the best price are unethical. That's a good one. "False pretenses." Since a pretense is, by definition, false, would that make a "false pretense" a true motive? More pointedly: Since when did a shopper become morally obligated to make a purchase just by walking through the shop's door? "Inflicting wear on materials"? Equally ridiculous. But here's the cake-taker: "...and taking up space." Ye gods! I take up space everywhere I go! Is there no escape from my criminality?
> 
> If you own a store, and don't want people browsing in your store, shrink wrap everything and put up a big sign that says, "You Can Look at It after You've Bought It!"
> 
> I bet that'll help sales.



Have to agree with Mark on this one, when I'm just browsing I always just say no just looking.    My only contention is that when you go on purpose to the store to browse to see if you want to buy it on the net.  That would be my problem with it.  But if it is just a casual browse and say yea that's cool and bought later.  I have no problem with it.


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## TheYeti1775 (Jul 18, 2005)

freebfrost said:
			
		

> So, I take it you don't test drive cars, you just go to a dealer and buy one right?



Have to point you to my post above and Camp 2.


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## HeapThaumaturgist (Jul 18, 2005)

I think the common, current, theory is that welcoming browsers eventually leads to greater sales.  Of course, it needs to be coupled with other incentives.

There are always going to be people who come into a store to browse around.  I do it all the time.  I don't conciously go into a store to browse a book and then order it online, and I honestly think that's MORALLY wrong.  Maybe that's silly, but using somebody else's time and money with no intention toward recompense strikes me as wrong.  Browsing doesn't, because I may or may not buy the book and if I'm comfortable somewhere I might very well begin to shop there regularly.  

Value-Adds need to be there ... even if you can batch-order some dice and give out a Gamescience die with every RPG book purchase ... something kitchy and not particularly expensive that people don't get when they order online, something that keeps them coming back, like the potential to "collect 'em all" with cool dice or something else of the sort.

--fje


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## TheYeti1775 (Jul 18, 2005)

HeapThaumaturgist said:
			
		

> I think the common, current, theory is that welcoming browsers eventually leads to greater sales.  Of course, it needs to be coupled with other incentives.
> 
> There are always going to be people who come into a store to browse around.  I do it all the time.  I don't conciously go into a store to browse a book and then order it online, and I honestly think that's MORALLY wrong.  Maybe that's silly, but using somebody else's time and money with no intention toward recompense strikes me as wrong.  Browsing doesn't, because I may or may not buy the book and if I'm comfortable somewhere I might very well begin to shop there regularly.
> 
> ...




Admittly I would be a sucker for freebies.
I love freebies.
Heck open a box of mini's use the commons as promotionals, the others sell as individuals under your glass case.  Buy $50 get a free common, buy $100 get 2 free commons and a set of solid dice.  It doesn't have to be big, just something nice.  And guess what if I just got a mini and I find it cool, you might have hooked me on coming back and buying my minis from you.
I look at like I do one little pizza place I goto.  It isn't the greatest but I love it.  Want to know the secret, the guys that work there are friendly and customer oriented.  The prices are good, not the best I've seen just average.  And because I go in there regularly my son(age 5) plays the Ms Pacman arcade game for free.  He walks over unlocks it and clicks about 20 credits into it.


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## freebfrost (Jul 18, 2005)

TheYeti1775 said:
			
		

> Have to point you to my post above and Camp 2.



Not the point I was making.  

My point is that Dristram was complaining because a customer was coming in to check out the product and then purchasing it elsewhere.

To use your example, if Dealer A has the car I want at $5,000 less but has to order it since it is not currently on the lot, but Dealer B has the model I want and its available for a test drive, you can bet I'll go to Dealer B with no intention of purchasing the car to try the car.

It's about trying the _product_, not the relative comforts or advantages of the store.

Ever take a food sample at a grocery store without any intentions of buying the product?  Same thing.

If you are a merchant and feel that customers shouldn't be able to try the product, then take the advice given to wrap everything in shrinkwrap.  But, as Mark said, you'll lose customers - personally I never shop at places that do this.  As a consumer, I want to be able to try the product.  If as a seller, you choose to stop me from checking it out because I may spend my money elsewhere - guess what, I'm already going to be spending it elsewhere.

Finally, TheYeti1775 - which camp would I fall in?  I buy books online from Amazon, but I also go to a FLGS where I get a substantial discount.  Finally, I go to another FLGS where I pay full price.  I buy from all three in fairly equal amounts...


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## TheYeti1775 (Jul 18, 2005)

freebfrost said:
			
		

> Not the point I was making.
> 
> My point is that Dristram was complaining because a customer was coming in to check out the product and then purchasing it elsewhere.
> 
> ...




I would say your in the Camp of Mail my extra cash to Yeti.    
I would say you fall into the Camp 9 which somehow I forgot to type in.
Camp 9 - It is a True FLGS

I'm betting the books you buy online from Amazon, generally are not in stock regularly at the FLGS.  A true loyal consumer that loves the brick and mortar, and all it represents.  I'm also willing to bet you have staff at those stores that do not premate (think that's the right word) the sterotype.  Now as you said you get a discount (substansial) at one of them, so I think this falls into it becomes a couple of dollars more camp.  With the second FLGS, something about it makes it a Favorite LGS.  What is it? Staff, gaming space, browsing? We know it's not price, as you already stated you pay full retail there.  Most likely that leads me to believe staff and location.

And please just call me Yeti.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jul 18, 2005)

Jarrod said:
			
		

> It is completely unethical. You're using false pretenses to waste someone's time. Even if you come in and say "no, I don't need help", you're inflicting wear on materials and taking up space.



I wouldn't go so far as to say that the act of going in in all cases, browsing knowing you aren't going to purchase _right this outing_, but are leaving open the chance that you _might *later*_ is not under this "law"... IMO. Because you do plan on buying it later from the storekeeper who is displaying his product. Most store owners don't even mind and actually expect this.

But going to a store, browsing, *knowing before going in* there is *no* chance the storekeeper will be able to sell you something, even if you brush off the hired help saying "don't worry about me, I'm not buying because I buy online from your competitor", this *is* still unethical. If you want to feel good about yourself and abide by the "law" and still never buy your books from the store, buy the occassional dice set or mini every now and then. 

Some might think it is silly to have some ethic guideline with such malleable context. But ethics is all about the context.


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## freebfrost (Jul 18, 2005)

TheYeti1775 said:
			
		

> I would say your in the Camp of Mail my extra cash to Yeti.
> I would say you fall into the Camp 9 which somehow I forgot to type in.
> Camp 9 - It is a True FLGS
> 
> ...




It's a variety of things Yeti.

My discount FLGS is the first gaming store that I started frequenting many years ago - the discount is a reflection of just how much money I've spent there in the last 15 years.  Most new purchases are made there, but I limit myself to a certain amount weekly that I'll budget for gaming books.  Sadly, after the first week or so, this store moves new product off of their "new" shelf space into the "general" shelving.  This is bad because their shelves basically suck - they are slanted so that the longer a product sits there, the worse the binding becomes.  Otherwise, I do have issues with the place.  Staff is not always friendly or quick to help (although being a regular I do not see this issue as much, but I do see it sometimes), I don't really need their services for game space, and cleanliness there is still below average.  But I do have a certain loyalty to the place.

The other FLGS is closer to my home, by about 30 minutes for a round-trip.  So if I want something ASAP, I'll head here.  They have cleaner facilities, nicer shelving, and somewhat friendlier staff.  

Since Amazon gets new products later, I typically order "extra" items from them - extra meaning items I wasn't able to fit in my budget.  So, if there are 3 new D&D books I want, and only buy two of them, I'll probably play catch-up later on with Amazon and get the missing book.

Now I do fall into the Camp of Disposable Income (aka Mail my extra cash to Yeti), so maybe that makes the difference.  Some of it is certainly impulse buying - I see a cool new book at one of the stores, and decide to get it, but I also will shop Amazon for substantial discount items (limited edition PHB, gift sets, bulk purchases for holiday giving, etc).  

Maybe I'm just the exception...


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## TheYeti1775 (Jul 18, 2005)

Not an exception I would say.
I tend to fall into those with disposable income as well.
What can I say, I like to buy toys for myself.
Though buying toys for my son can be just as fun.  (I get to relive my youth.)

Just as a curious question, how much of a discount do they give you at that store?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 18, 2005)

Just to be clear- I do order stuff online- but only after I have exhausted local options.



> This is absurd. So, browsers in a store shopping around for the best price are unethical. That's a good one.




No, what is unethical is:
1) Entering the store to browse _while_
2) knowing full well that you will not buy anything in the store.

You are adding to the wear and tear of the shop, taking up time of an employeee, and possibly even damaging the product, all in the full knowlege that you will never buy anything in there.

This is different from merely shopping around.

Ed Roman Guitars of Las Vegas is one of the worlds most famous guitar shops.  They have a no-play policy because people used to come in, try out a guitar, and then order an identical guitar (or go elsewhere) because the one they just tried out was "used."

To use the car example:

When I buy a car, I'll take test drives to find out about which kind of car I want.  When I decide upon a model, I'll ask questions about the dealerships.  THEN I'll start negotiating about price- and the dealers will know that I'm shopping around.

The cheaper car does NOT neccessarily win.  I'm willing to pay more (and HAVE) for a car from a quality dealership (better service department, late service hours, etc.), or even from one that had more polite staff.

And, I'm also willing to walk away from the model and start the process over with a different model of car.

But I NEVER go to a dealership to try out a car knowing I will absolutely never buy a car from that dealership.  If I don't like them, I don't go back- AND I let them know why and that I'll be telling my friends why.

This is real- there are certain dealerships in Texas that don't think black people buy BMW's or Audis, or that we'd buy $30k cars without test drives.  Does their attitude change when they find out I'm a lawyer?  Sure- but mine doesn't.

Service matters, and I reward it.


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## freebfrost (Jul 18, 2005)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> I wouldn't go so far as to say that the act of going in in all cases, browsing knowing you aren't going to purchase _right this outing_, but are leaving open the chance that you _might *later*_ is not under this "law"... IMO. Because you do plan on buying it later from the storekeeper who is displaying his product. Most store owners don't even mind and actually expect this.



So you are saying that as a store owner, you _expect_ everyone who comes into your store to buy something?  

Ever hear of window shopping?  Ever test drive a car knowing you were not buying one - or even just testing it for fun? Ever go house hunting and "wasted" the realtor's time going through a house you would never purchase?



> But going to a store, browsing, *knowing before going in* there is *no* chance the storekeeper will be able to sell you something, even if you brush off the hired help saying "don't worry about me, I'm not buying because I buy online from your competitor", this *is* still unethical. If you want to feel good about yourself and abide by the "law" and still never buy your books from the store, buy the occassional dice set or mini every now and then.



Are you paying the storekeeper for a service or are you buying his products?  

In the case you are presenting, they are selling you a product.  Here's where everyone is constantly blurring the issue in this thread, and here is where I'm making my point.  I am interested in buying a product.  I do not owe anything to the storekeeper, nor to his hired help.  As a consumer I only want my product - in this case, Book XYZ.  It could be a car, a house, clothes, whatever.  I try it, decide I like it, but know that the same _product_ is 50% cheaper at Amazon, so buy it online instead.

So everyone in the product chain gets their money, and I get my product.  The seller who I didn't buy the product from loses his cut from the chain because he wasn't (cheap /helpful/providing enough ancillary services - choose one) - this is called a free market economy.  

Where does ethics fit into this?


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## freebfrost (Jul 18, 2005)

TheYeti1775 said:
			
		

> Not an exception I would say.
> I tend to fall into those with disposable income as well.
> What can I say, I like to buy toys for myself.
> Though buying toys for my son can be just as fun.  (I get to relive my youth.)
> ...



18% on all products except Dwarven Forge sets - those I get at 25% off.


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## freebfrost (Jul 18, 2005)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> Just to be clear- I do order stuff online- but only after I have exhausted local options.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And any decent business will account for this wear and tear.

So, if you are in a china shop that posts a sign "Break it - you buy it, " and you break an items accidentally, do you pay for it?




> Ed Roman Guitars of Las Vegas is one of the worlds most famous guitar shops.  They have a no-play policy because people used to come in, try out a guitar, and then order an identical guitar (or go elsewhere) because the one they just tried out was "used."



I wonder if they ever figured out the cost of doing so versus their savings from not depreciating products?  "World Famous" does not a good accountant/businessman necessarily make.



> To use the car example:
> 
> When I buy a car, I'll take test drives to find out about which kind of car I want.  When I decide upon a model, I'll ask questions about the dealerships.  THEN I'll start negotiating about price- and the dealers will know that I'm shopping around.



Test drives create wear and tear.  Who pays for that?



> This is real- there are certain dealerships in Texas that don't think black people buy BMW's or Audis, or that we'd buy $30k cars without test drives.  Does their attitude change when they find out I'm a lawyer?  Sure- but mine doesn't.
> 
> Service matters, and I reward it.



Service certainly factors in to any buying decision, but my point is that a business should expect customers to try and NOT buy, and account for it.  To do otherwise (in the US economy at least) shows a lack of basic business awareness, let alone trying to paint such market actions as unethical.


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## DM-Rocco (Jul 18, 2005)

I avoided this thread cause I didn't know what a FLGS was and didn't care, but now I have seen this thread up for quite a bit so I thought I would check it out.  I assume that FLGS is something along the lines of Family Local Game Store, right?  If so, then I have to say, while I love the fact that they try to be open and friendly and have great places to play, for the most part, I don't make enough use of them to be loyal to them when they jack the prices through the roof.

  I have not always been so lucky in my income as I am now so I have very little love for those who try to crew me out of my hard earned money.  I feel bad that they have a hard time making a buck compared to the bigger stores but it is not my problem.  The funny thing is when one store wants a box of Magic cards for $120 and the other will sell them for $70, where would you go?

  People who support local game stores are mostly doing so out of love of the owner and feel a need to support them cause they wish they could have such a life.  I say they should get ready to compete or get out.  I don't hate small store owners, one of my friends is one, but I will not buy from him if he jacks the price and he knows it.

PS  If I am wrong about the FLGS being something along the lines of a Family Local Gaming Store, disregard this message.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jul 18, 2005)

freebfrost said:
			
		

> So you are saying that as a store owner, you _expect_ everyone who comes into your store to buy something?
> 
> Ever hear of window shopping?



Gosh, why no, I haven't heard of that. :rolls eyes: Window shopping is looking at the wares from outside the store through the... wait for it... _window_! You haven't gone in and handled the product the storekeeper owns or taken up any of his attention or employees time.



			
				freebfrost said:
			
		

> Ever test drive a car knowing you were not buying one - or even just testing it for fun?




Yes, that's unethical. Go ahead and do it, I didn't say it was illegal.



			
				freebfrost said:
			
		

> Ever go house hunting and "wasted" the realtor's time going through a house you would never purchase?




Realtors and home sellers are aware folks are coming through to "see what the neighbor's house is like" with no intention of buying it. Every homeowner is also a potential homeseller in the same market as everyone else. Realtors also use the event to sell their services to future potential homesellers. Rarely is some publisher going into a store to check the competitors products to do industry research with the intent ahead of time to never purchase.

Frankly, I haven't gone house hunting never intending to purchase a home. I only house hunt the houses I can afford. As a neighbor I do on occassion go into a home having an open house never intending to buy it but then everytime it has been a neighbor that wants and expects the neighbors to come check it out because this is almost the only way to generate word of mouth "advertising". Neighbors come check the house out and there is a chance the neighbor will pass along the prospect to their friends or relatives who are in the market for houses.

Also, as a homeowner/potential homeseller, it is worthwhile checking out the homes selling in your neighborhood because house values will affect your own house value and thus property taxes. One's neighbors selling houses in your neighborhood affects one's own pocket book whether or not one is putting their home on the market.



			
				freebfrost said:
			
		

> So everyone in the product chain gets their money, and I get my product.  The seller who I didn't buy the product from loses his cut from the chain because he wasn't (cheap /helpful/providing enough ancillary services - choose one) - this is called a free market economy.
> 
> Where does ethics fit into this?



If you want to browse, go browse where there is a retailer that is cheap/helpful/provising enough ancillary services. If you going to buy online, there is very good chance you won't be telling you friends to go shop at the retailer, but are telling them to shop online. The shopkeeper is not getting even potential word of mouth advertising from you.

Besides, from your example, everyone in the product chain didn't get their money from your purchase. The storeowner, whose products you went and handled, didn't get his cut. The publisher isn't paying the storeowner to display his books. The storeowner got nothing and he is well within your "product chain".

The ethics is the intentional deceit towards the storeowner. You know the storeowner is hoping for your business, and as such puts the product he owns out for his potential customers to examine. Coming in knowing ahead of time you will never be a potential customer is what I'm talking about.

In economic terms you are a free rider , you are free riding on the back of the storekeeper and his or her paying customers. You are getting something for nothing. You are using the services put out for paying customers intending to never pay for them.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jul 18, 2005)

freebfrost said:
			
		

> Service certainly factors in to any buying decision, but my point is that a business should expect customers to try and NOT buy, and account for it.  To do otherwise (in the US economy at least) shows a lack of basic business awareness, let alone trying to paint such market actions as unethical.



Haven't said anything remotely close to implying business shouldn't try to account for wear and tear. Haven't even tried to paint the "market actions" as having any ethics at all. I have and do label the individual people who have no *other* purpose to shopowners than inflicting "wear and tear" on shopowners as unethical though.


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## TheYeti1775 (Jul 18, 2005)

On the Car Test Drive for fun.
Yup do it once a year for my birthday.
I dress up in a casual suit and go car 'shopping', I've test drove many cars over the years.  Actually went back a few months later to one of the dealerships, because I had a very good experience in my bit of fun.  Though I did make sure to get the same salesman as before, part of that karma thing.  Had me setup exactly what I wanted too.
So even having fun I gauged a place if I wanted to ever do business there.
So according to you every year I waste several dealerships days when I walk into them.  It paid off for one of them a few months later.  Though you are right word of mouth I did reccommend a couple of them to friends.

On the 'Window shopping', are all your products in the store window? If not, then guess what they can't see the item to so call 'window shop'.  If you think they shouldn't do that, charge admission to your store and see how quickily you go under.
You call them "Free-Riders" when the term doesn't apply properly.  We've already payed to get to your store.  Your in the Sales business, we are in the buying business.  Your bottom line is to make a dollar ours is to spend as little as possible.  It is a free market and you have to have something that 1. will bring people into the store, and 2. get them to part with their money.  Failing that, you will go under as a shop.
Also, how many of those crying Free-Rider have been in the mall and cruised through the Spencer's Gift store just because it was cool without the intention of buying anything?  Cast no stone..... (ring a bell)

For you owners paying attention to this thread, unless you are in your store from opening to closing, try this.  Get a secret shopper check your employees and how they hanlde things.  The majority of the complaints past price here is customer service related.  This is the one area the brick and mortar can win hands down if they only try at it.

With a hobby as small as ours, the LGS needs something that sets them above the online retailer.

Still no one has answered my question of what's stopping you from ordering from Amazon and stocking that way at a small markup above them.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 18, 2005)

> So, if you are in a china shop that posts a sign "Break it - you buy it, " and you break an items accidentally, do you pay for it?




Yes.



> I wonder if they ever figured out the cost of doing so versus their savings from not depreciating products? "World Famous" does not a good accountant/businessman necessarily make.




Yes.  Ed's been in the biz longer than I've been alive, and figured out that the $5000 hit he was taking on some of the high end guitars getting labeled as "used" was too much.  Since adopting that policy, he gets sight-unseen orders from around the world, because people know that the guitar they get from Ed is going to be in pristine condition.



> Test drives create wear and tear. Who pays for that?... but my point is that a business should expect customers to try and NOT buy, and account for it. To do otherwise (in the US economy at least) shows a lack of basic business awareness, let alone trying to paint such market actions as unethical.




Every person who buys a car at that dealership pays for wear and tear.  Its distributed among all buyers as a part of the dealer's overhead, along with salaries, physical plant, insurance, heating/cooling, utilities, theft, etc., which is reflected in higher base prices.  Eventually, the test vehicle is sold as a program car at a greatly lowered price.

But what we're talking about ISN'T a test drive.  On a test drive, there's the possibility that the driver may buy the vehicle at the location of the test.

What we're talking about is:

1) Consumer A hears about Product A, and decides if he's going to buy it, he is going to buy Product A at Retailer A.
2) Before buying Product A, Consumer A goes to Retailer B to examine Product A *already knowing* that Product A will be bought elsewhere.
3) By doing so, Consumer A raises Retailer B's costs in relation to Retailer A, and Retailer B cannot recover that cost from anyone else except Consumers B+ C + whomever.

LGS's DO account for that cost, and Online retailers don't have to, and it is driving LGS owners nuts.  Online retailers suffer NO wear & tear on their product due to browsing- virtually their entire W&T is shifted to the LGS's bottom line-and the consumers complain that the LGS's aren't matching the online retailers' prices.



> Still no one has answered my question of what's stopping you from ordering from Amazon and stocking that way at a small markup above them.




That IS a good question.  Here are some (not definitive or exhaustive) answers:

1) It still results in a higher price for the LGS.

2) If the online retailer IS a predatory pricer, they can drop their prices indefinitely, and the cycle can continue until the RPG publisher declares bankruptcy.  Most online retailers are NOT after the millions in the business of selling games.  They are trying to reach, and eventually monopolize, the OTHER products for which gamers are the core target market- the multi-billion dollar scifi/fantasy/superhero movie/book/tv/game products.  The RPGs can be sold at a loss if it gets the gamers to the website to buy "Mighty DragonballZ X-Men vs Alien Predators 2: the video game and DVD box set" at $100/pop.

3) Like any retailer, the online retailer can refuse to sell to a particular customer, especially a competitor- here, the LGS.

4) Timing.  The online guys would ALWAYS have the product first, and being first counts for a lot in business.


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## Tetsubo (Jul 18, 2005)

Mark Chance said:
			
		

> This is absurd. So, browsers in a store shopping around for the best price are unethical. That's a good one. "False pretenses." Since a pretense is, by definition, false, would that make a "false pretense" a true motive? More pointedly: Since when did a shopper become morally obligated to make a purchase just by walking through the shop's door? "Inflicting wear on materials"? Equally ridiculous. But here's the cake-taker: "...and taking up space." Ye gods! I take up space everywhere I go! Is there no escape from my criminality?
> 
> If you own a store, and don't want people browsing in your store, shrink wrap everything and put up a big sign that says, "You Can Look at It after You've Bought It!"
> 
> I bet that'll help sales.




I went to a gaming store once that DID shrink wrap every book. I didn't "browse" at all and left a few minutes later. Part of the gaming book buying experience is browsing. I like to look at the books lay-out and art. See what ratio the fluff-to-crunch is (I'm a big crunch fan). This particular store lost my money and any future money from me.


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## Tetsubo (Jul 18, 2005)

HeapThaumaturgist said:
			
		

> I think the common, current, theory is that welcoming browsers eventually leads to greater sales.  Of course, it needs to be coupled with other incentives.
> 
> There are always going to be people who come into a store to browse around.  I do it all the time.  I don't conciously go into a store to browse a book and then order it online, and I honestly think that's MORALLY wrong.  Maybe that's silly, but using somebody else's time and money with no intention toward recompense strikes me as wrong.  Browsing doesn't, because I may or may not buy the book and if I'm comfortable somewhere I might very well begin to shop there regularly.
> 
> ...




Look at brick & mortar B&N stores. They provide big comfy chairs so that you can browse all you want. And they make a profit. I realize that gaming store margins are much tighter but browsing does up sales.


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## Dristram (Jul 18, 2005)

I guess it's all a personality thing.  Personally, I've never test-driven a car without initial intention of purchasing it.  And I have never taken the food samplers without the thought of possibly purchasing it.  And I don't have any personal friends who do either.  Or at least that I'm aware of.  So, to me, it's shocking that people do shop at a store with full intention of buying someplace else.  I guess I'm naive.




			
				TheYeti1775 said:
			
		

> Still no one has answered my question of what's stopping you from ordering from Amazon and stocking that way at a small markup above them.




I'll answer it as soon as I make sure I understand what you're asking.  Are you saying, why not buy a $34.95 book from Amazon at $23 and then sell it for $26 or something?

(-Brad Daeda
Owner, Gamer's Keepe
Vacaville, CA


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## freebfrost (Jul 18, 2005)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> Gosh, why no, I haven't heard of that. :rolls eyes: Window shopping is looking at the wares from outside the store through the... wait for it... _window_! You haven't gone in and handled the product the storekeeper owns or taken up any of his attention or employees time.
> 
> Yes, that's unethical. Go ahead and do it, I didn't say it was illegal.



You say it's unethical.  Based on what?  Your idea of what is ethical, or what works in the business world?

Did I sign a contract with Shopowners, Inc. saying what my consumer behavior is supposed to be?

If you are using ethics in the loosest terms, you are equating this behavior as being something societally "bad."  How is this behavior bad per se?



> Realtors and home sellers are aware folks are coming through to "see what the neighbor's house is like" with no intention of buying it. Every homeowner is also a potential homeseller in the same market as everyone else. Realtors also use the event to sell their services to future potential homesellers. Rarely is some publisher going into a store to check the competitors products to do industry research with the intent ahead of time to never purchase.



Do you really believe that?  That Monte Cook, for example, never reads competitor products without the intent to purchase them?



> Frankly, I haven't gone house hunting never intending to purchase a home. I only house hunt the houses I can afford. As a neighbor I do on occassion go into a home having an open house never intending to buy it but then everytime it has been a neighbor that wants and expects the neighbors to come check it out because this is almost the only way to generate word of mouth "advertising". Neighbors come check the house out and there is a chance the neighbor will pass along the prospect to their friends or relatives who are in the market for houses.



In the marketplace, the average consumer is what drives consumer behavior.  Because your opinion is different does not make it prevalent in how the business economy works.

And you just verified this behavior in this example.

Are you paying your neighbor a fair "price" for wasting their time?  Does the opportunity cost of your house visit really make up for their lost time and energy spent in selling their house?  No, you aren't.  But you are trying to cover up your "deceit" by being "good friends" with the neighbors.  This isn't about being friendly with the neighbors or the storeowner, this is about the business of selling products.  



> If you want to browse, go browse where there is a retailer that is cheap/helpful/provising enough ancillary services. If you going to buy online, there is very good chance you won't be telling you friends to go shop at the retailer, but are telling them to shop online. The shopkeeper is not getting even potential word of mouth advertising from you.



If I see a good book at a gaming store while on vacation, I likely won't buy it just to lug around in my suitcase, but I'll buy it when I get home.  I'm not supporting that local store wherever it is, nor am I doing any advertising for it.  I doubt I'll ever tell anyone about it.  So you advocate me purchasing that book there instead of getting it at home then?



> Besides, from your example, everyone in the product chain didn't get their money from your purchase. The storeowner, whose products you went and handled, didn't get his cut. The publisher isn't paying the storeowner to display his books. The storeowner got nothing and he is well within your "product chain".



  The storeowner who didn't get his cut is not a part of the buying equation at that point.  They lost my business.  His wear and tear is part and parcel of doing business - depreciation.


> The ethics is the intentional deceit towards the storeowner. You know the storeowner is hoping for your business, and as such puts the product he owns out for his potential customers to examine. Coming in knowing ahead of time you will never be a potential customer is what I'm talking about.



Intentional deceit?  I didn't tell the owner "I'm going to buy this today," and leave the store.  I looked at his selections and left to buy elsewhere.  Deceit implies active deception -and simply saying that the storeowner is "hoping for my business,"  does not imply that I am actively deceiving him.  Every business "hopes" for customers.  The Shell station hopes I buy their gas, but I bought from BP today.  Because I drove through the Shell station parking lot, did I imply that I was buying from them?



> In economic terms you are a free rider , you are free riding on the back of the storekeeper and his or her paying customers. You are getting something for nothing. You are using the services put out for paying customers intending to never pay for them.



What resource did I use exactly?  The book is still there.  The storeowner can still sell it, or if it is damaged, return it for another.  There is no loss to the storeowner.


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## Tetsubo (Jul 18, 2005)

I buy most of my gaming books online. I visit FLGS for used books, sales and discounted items. I also occasionaly enjoy the experience of "immersion" that comes from visiting a FLGS. I can get books from Amazon at a discount and if over $25 with free shipping. I tend to order two books at the beginning of each month. Thanks to EN World and other sites I can buy most books with confidence in their content. Love those reviews...

Though Serpent Kingdoms was a wash...


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## freebfrost (Jul 18, 2005)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> Haven't said anything remotely close to implying business shouldn't try to account for wear and tear. Haven't even tried to paint the "market actions" as having any ethics at all. I have and do label the individual people who have no *other* purpose to shopowners than inflicting "wear and tear" on shopowners as unethical though.



Well, I don't think we are talking about people who intentionally go in to shops and destroy items.  My perspective is for an average person who checks out something in the shop but decides, for whatever reason, to purchase elsewhere.


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## Tetsubo (Jul 18, 2005)

freebfrost said:
			
		

> Well, I don't think we are talking about people who intentionally go in to shops and destroy items.  My perspective is for an average person who checks out something in the shop but decides, for whatever reason, to purchase elsewhere.




At one time (prior to the Internet) I shopped at FLGS exclusively. I would often look at a particular book multiple times over the course of weeks before I made the decision to buy it.

And I have in fact bought gaming books while on vacation. My honeymoon in fact. 

The assertion that I am somehow "damaging" a shopowner by browsing is absurd. Just part of the "cost" of doing business.


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## Shining Dragon (Jul 18, 2005)

freebfrost said:
			
		

> What resource did I use exactly?  The book is still there.  The storeowner can still sell it, or if it is damaged, return it for another.  There is no loss to the storeowner.




A bricks-and-mortar store (most of the time) offers people the ability to browse the physical book before purchase. They have to pay for the space (convenient to customers thus costs more than a warehouse in the barrens) and have to pass on the costs to the customer via higher prices than an online store.

The resource you used therefore is the space made available for you to browse. So using the space without compensating the owner for it, especially if you go and make your purchases elsewhere (online) due to lower prices, can be seen to be unethical. And have you ever considered what you'll do if the store goes out of business? It'd be hypocritical of you to complain if you never supported the store.

Also I think you have a strange idea about returning damaged books. If its damaged during shipping then they can return it. But being damaged by the customers? If all damaged books are able to be returned then ultimately someone is going to pay the cost - usually the customers through increased prices (due to increased cost of doing business).


I happen to be in the good position of being able to purchase online from my bricks-and-mortar store and save money - at the cost of waiting up to one week for the books to arrive.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jul 18, 2005)

freebfrost said:
			
		

> You say it's unethical.  Based on what?  Your idea of what is ethical, or what works in the business world?



As I explicit stated it with regards to joyriding in a car under the pretense of purchasing it, what is unethical is that you effective have stolen fuel and the salesman's time which could have been spent holding the hand of an actual prospective buyer (he gets paid on commission after all), and risking driving the car in traffic where an accident could happen. All the while pretending to be something that you were not... a potential customer.

TANSTAAFL applies here. Someone pays for this free riding.

Ethics has nothing to do with what is legal or contractual. I'm sorry you think it has to.



			
				freebfrost said:
			
		

> Do you really believe that?  That Monte Cook, for example, never reads competitor products without the intent to purchase them?



No I don't believe Monte goes into a retailer and treats that storeowner like a public library for his competitor research. I do believe Monte would buy his competitor's products, or potentially receive them gratis from the competitor. I do believe Monte might even go into a game store to purchase something and while he is there glance through his competitors product.



			
				freebfrost said:
			
		

> But you are trying to cover up your "deceit" by being "good friends" with the neighbors.  This isn't about being friendly with the neighbors or the storeowner, this is about the business of selling products.



Hardly, I am being invited in to inspect. Houses are prepared for heavy traffic of visitors. I know this, I have sold two houses in my life. I haven't said anything about being good friends either. Homesellers know that bringing in the neighbors to view the home can potentially drive word of mouth for a person who is in the market for homes. I have done this twice, as I said, I haven't met a realtor who didn't think that bringing in the neighbors was anything other than a benefit to selling the home.

I have yet to meet a storekeeper who thinks bringing in people who *only* buy online  everything sold in his store to come into his store and check out the things being bought is a good thing. I have met storekeepers who know that free riders are part of the cost of business of running a retail store. 



			
				freebfrost said:
			
		

> If I see a good book at a gaming store while on vacation, I likely won't buy it just to lug around in my suitcase, but I'll buy it when I get home.  I'm not supporting that local store wherever it is, nor am I doing any advertising for it.  I doubt I'll ever tell anyone about it.  So you advocate me purchasing that book there instead of getting it at home then?



One single book so inconveniences you that packing it in your suitcase or carry-on bag is too much? If you go into a store with the thought in mind you *could* buy *something* (a mini, booster pack of cards...), you haven't done anything to violate that shopkeeper's law I mentioned even if you don't buy.



			
				freebfrost said:
			
		

> The storeowner who didn't get his cut is not a part of the buying equation at that point.  They lost my business.  His wear and tear is part and parcel of doing business - depreciation.



Correction, they *never had* your business to begin with but you took use of their services. Because you didn't transact the purchase with them doesn't mean they weren't part of the cycle. You weren't an invisible phantom when you walked into his store and cracked the book open to check it out, and his store wasn't a public library.

However, if in your mind there was a chance the store could have gotten you business now or in the future, you're not doing anything to violate the Storekeeper's law I'm talking about.



			
				freebfrost said:
			
		

> Intentional deceit?  I didn't tell the owner "I'm going to buy this today," and leave the store.  I looked at his selections and left to buy elsewhere.  Deceit implies active deception -and simply saying that the storeowner is "hoping for my business,"  does not imply that I am actively deceiving him.



If you went in knowing you would *never* buy anything, ever, from the store owner, yet pretend to be a potential customer, and handle what he owns. You are deceiving by acting as a potential customer.



			
				freebfrost said:
			
		

> What resource did I use exactly?  The book is still there.  The storeowner can still sell it, or if it is damaged, return it for another.  There is no loss to the storeowner.



His time, his attention better spent with somone who will help him pay his own costs to display what you are handling.


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## Dristram (Jul 18, 2005)

Firstly, FLGS stands for *Friendly* Local Game Store   



			
				DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> I don't make enough use of them to be loyal to them when they jack the prices through the roof. <snip> I don't hate small store owners, one of my friends is one, but I will not buy from him if he jacks the price and he knows it.



I'm curious what your definition of "jack the prices" is.

(-Brad Daeda
Owner, Gamer's Keepe
Vacaville, CA


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## ssampier (Jul 19, 2005)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> Look at brick & mortar B&N stores. They provide big comfy chairs so that you can browse all you want. And they make a profit. I realize that gaming store margins are much tighter but browsing does up sales.




I see the upside of that. Potential buyers come in your store and can leisurely decide on their  purchases, something that cannot be done mail order/online.**

However, I've seen many times that these "freebies" can be easily taken advantage of. You may have lots of people that lounge and don't buy anything, a "hangout". A "hangout" doesn't make a business and often can discourage paying customers from coming in, "These are the twenty-seven ways that [Product X] sucks: Number one...." My LGS* is like this, just a few of the gamestore flies buy something once in awhile.

*it's pretty friendly if are under 15 and play Magic.
**_If I was a game store owner..._ I'd provide benches and chairs, hard-back, nothing that can be damaging to your spine, but nothing you'd want to lounge more than a 1/2 hour either. It may sound crass, but you wouldn't want to attract the gamestore flies.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Jul 19, 2005)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> Look at brick & mortar B&N stores. They provide big comfy chairs so that you can browse all you want. And they make a profit. I realize that gaming store margins are much tighter but browsing does up sales.




Man, I'd kill to have nice comfy chairs in my FLGS so I can make a more informed decision about new books.

Heck, I'd just like a bench or two that I could use for that.

Brad


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## Waldorf (Jul 19, 2005)

And that is precisely the reason I browse gaming books in B&N before buying them online from Amazon. One offers comfort, the other discounts. FLGS offer neither.


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## Dr. Harry (Jul 19, 2005)

I haven't added my two cents because I'm in principle opposed to posting just to say "me too" to the people whose position I agree with (Dannyalcatraz and Eric Anondson) just to up my post count, but I think that I can contribute here:




			
				TheYeti1775 said:
			
		

> Still no one has answered my question of what's stopping you from ordering from Amazon and stocking that way at a small markup above them.




  I'd think that the price that the store can order the book for from the retailers would still be less than the Amazon price.  The FLGS could sell the book for the same price as Amazon -- if the FLGS didn't mind losing a lot of money because of the expenses that they have that the online retailers do not.

  Look at the inventory at your FLGS.  Each of those products, no matter how cheaply they were when the FLGS ordered them, represent a loss of money *until someone buys them*.  It would be inconceivable to imagine a FLGS that would only order exactly what the store knew could sell.  The FLGS has to pay for the books, the display space the books take up, and the shipping *before the fact*.

  The online site does not have to pay nearly as much for the location, does not have to pay for sales personnel, can use gaming material as a "loss leader", and *you* pay the shipping!  (Unless you provide a sufficient profit to them that they still make money.)


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## Tatsukun (Jul 19, 2005)

Another way to look at browsing, but not buying in a store is that you are giving them a chance. If they fail to wow you, you buy online. 

It's like first option on a sale. You call your friend (or FLGS), get a bid (Price, add ons) and if you don't like it, or if you get a better bid, you move on. 

That's life

  -Tatsu


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 19, 2005)

> The storeowner who didn't get his cut is not a part of the buying equation at that point. They lost my business. His wear and tear is part and parcel of doing business - depreciation.




Depreciation only applies the discounting of equipment or buildings used to run a business.  It is a recognition of deterioration of the business' ability to produce items or services for sale.

Wear and Tear on the goods a business is selling is a loss of inventory.  Loss of 1 unit of inventory because of wear and tear must be either written off as a loss of inventory (identical to a theft or some other kind of destruction), or must be compensated for by raising the per unit cost of the inventory...usually in advance.

Since online retailers don't have physical browsing, they don't have to account for wear and tear of their inventory.

If your purchase pattern is browse locally, buy online, you're raising per unit costs for LGS's and shifting that cost to the people who actually buy at the LGS.



> I don't make enough use of them to be loyal to them when they jack the prices through the roof. <snip> I don't hate small store owners, one of my friends is one, but I will not buy from him if he jacks the price and he knows it.




As stated before, by myself and actual game owners- the higher prices in LGS's are usually NOT the result of the game store jacking the price, but rather, the online retailers being able to sell the product at a price the LGS will NEVER be able to match.  Usually, this is done by either subsidizing product prices with higher prices on other goods or by using oligopoly power to negotiate a much lower per unit cost- sometimes, ruinously lower.



> freebfrost
> What resource did I use exactly? The book is still there. The storeowner can still sell it, or if it is damaged, return it for another. There is no loss to the storeowner.




In both economics & law, this is called an opportunity cost. If you're acting like a customer, using the staff's time, etc.- but you know you're not going to buy in that store no matter what- you have cost the store the chance to sell to another customer.

If, for example, you've ordered a special version of a game online, but before it arrives, you take 30 minutes inspecting the only copy at Bob's Game store, you've prevented others from inspecting the copy, possibly costing Bob's a sale.

The same goes if you go into Bob's before you make your special order online, but you know you're not buying it there because you think Bob "jacks up" his prices.  Your 30 minute perusal may have cost him his sale.

But if you go into Bob's to see the special product, browse, decide against it, and then change your mind afterwards and order it online, you haven't done anything unethical, even if it isn't exactly fair to Bob who took his time to showcase the product to you.

Its about intent.


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## Waldorf (Jul 19, 2005)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> In both economics & law, this is called an opportunity cost. If you're acting like a customer, using the staff's time, etc.- but you know you're not going to buy in that store no matter what- you have cost the store the chance to sell to another customer.
> 
> If, for example, you've ordered a special version of a game online, but before it arrives, you take 30 minutes inspecting the only copy at Bob's Game store, you've prevented others from inspecting the copy, possibly costing Bob's a sale.
> 
> ...




So charge me with unethical behavior. Like I give a rat's ass.


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## johnsemlak (Jul 19, 2005)

My personal opinion is that bringing 'ethics' into this discussion is rather unproductive. I imagine it just turns a lot of people off.


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## TheYeti1775 (Jul 19, 2005)

Dristram said:
			
		

> I guess it's all a personality thing.  Personally, I've never test-driven a car without initial intention of purchasing it.  And I have never taken the food samplers without the thought of possibly purchasing it.  And I don't have any personal friends who do either.  Or at least that I'm aware of.  So, to me, it's shocking that people do shop at a store with full intention of buying someplace else.  I guess I'm naive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Essentially in a nutshell, I believe so.

I'm not a business guy, but I know if I can get product for $23 and have a buyer at $26 what's to stop me.


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## Belen (Jul 19, 2005)

TheYeti1775 said:
			
		

> Essentially in a nutshell, I believe so.
> 
> I'm not a business guy, but I know if I can get product for $23 and have a buyer at $26 what's to stop me.




The answer here is simple.  The storeowner will not receive the book at the release date.  The owner will receive the book at the same time as the rest of Amazon's customers.  The only thing keeping the stores alive is that they get the books out first!

The other answer remains that $26 dollars for a book that retails at 34.95 will not pay the bills.  At $26 dollars, a FLGS would need to sell a large volume of books in order to break even or turn even a small profit.  

Amazon can charge $23 because they are international!  They may only make $1.00 on each book, yet if they sell $5k, then they still make 5K and they only have to pay for warehousing costs.  Not to mention that they have other products selling (such as a medical textbooks) that are NOT discounted and where they can make up the difference.

A FLGS owner would be lucky to sell $20 books.  Actually, they'd only sell 20 books from Wizards.  If it was a Wizards book, then they make $60.  That's it.  They probably will not sell that title again in their area.

A FLGS does NOT jack up the prices.  They sell the products at market value.  Amazon and Wal-Mart sell products below market value in order to undercut competition.  If Amazon and Wal-Mart had no competition, then you can be certain that the will sell the products at full retail, and still gouge the producer of the books into giving them lower prices.


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## Belen (Jul 19, 2005)

Waldorf said:
			
		

> So charge me with unethical behavior. Like I give a rat's ass.




So if you do not want to feel guilty about it, then do not shop at stores any longer.  If Amazon gives you everything that you need, then use them ONLY.


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## Belen (Jul 19, 2005)

freebfrost said:
			
		

> What resource did I use exactly?  The book is still there.  The storeowner can still sell it, or if it is damaged, return it for another.  There is no loss to the storeowner.




You have stolen the owner's time.  You have taken value from his store without ever intending to pay for that value.  You may have even contributed to a lost sale from a customer who would have paid for a book.  For instance, if you were browsing a book and that was the last copy, then another customer who wanted to purchase the book arrived, did not find it, then left.

You would have stolen that sale because you never intended to buy.

The unethical thing here is that you find value in the store and the ability to browse the books it offers; however, you are unwilling to pay for the service.  You want your cake and you intend to eat someone else's too.


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## TheYeti1775 (Jul 19, 2005)

I think he said he doesn't feel guilty about it.   

So my take on it - 
Your locations and pricing are the biggest things hurting you.
Staff is running the close third. 

Location - How many of you are close to a high school or a college, what about a mall.  Doesn't have to be at the mall (higher rent), but near it.  Get in a strip mall near your 'Best Buys' and stuff.  Higher traffic equal more 'window shoppers' right.  Of course you all know this.  You would never get a cheap location not even on a bus line would you.  Heck move next to a Starbucks, milk off their 'big box'ness that isn't competing with you.

Pricing - this one has been beat to death in this thread.  So 'nuff said there.

Staff - same as pricing.  They can be a Plus or a really big negative.
----------------------------

I know it was suggested to have groups of LGS band together to bulk up the orders for lower pricing, still don't see how this couldn't work possiblly.  But its a volume thing I understand.
But nothing is stopping you from trying.
----------------------------

Really I think after what is it now 12/13 pages the issue has been beat to death.  And most are starting to get real defensive rather than trying to come up with a viable solution.

One thing that really needs to be thought about though for the brick & mortar is the number one factor for most in coming back is the customer service.  Remember the average gamer doesn't need the LGS as vice versa.  Because once a book is bought, really there is no support needed.  It's not like you 'have' to upgrade regularly with patches, or new hardware.  Let me check, yup my Red Box set is still running smooth, Elves are still a class.  
So with LGS's it becomes a buyer's market.  Find something we need, that the 'big box' can't.  This is where your gaming table comes in.  Host a Warhammer/Mini's tournement, with a small prize for the winner.  Offer lamination of single sheets.  DM's are always looking to protect some of their works somehow, what better way then to have something they can wipe off.  Offer something that is unique to your shop.  That's the only thing I can think of.
Bring back the old Bulletin Board of Local Gamers seeking games/gammers.  Haven't seen that in a store in ages.  (Guess what you can use that also to mine for potential advertisement and what to stock.)

So is this horse dead yet?
Yeti


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## Belen (Jul 19, 2005)

TheYeti1775 said:
			
		

> One thing that really needs to be thought about though for the brick & mortar is the number one factor for most in coming back is the customer service.  Remember the average gamer doesn't need the LGS as vice versa.




I totally agree here.  Stores have to compete on customer service.  People go to a brick and mortar store to get better service and more knowledgeable staff than they can find at Wal-Mart or Amazon.  If the stores want to stay afloat then customer serive must be a top priority.

Good service and a wealth of knowledge are the items that will keep a store running despite the higher prices.

Luckily, my FLGS does this.


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## freebfrost (Jul 19, 2005)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> Yes.



Then you are a sucker.  Businesses have insurance to cover damaged goods, and that includes accidental breakage.  That business that you just paid is going to turn around and charge the insurer for the item and get double profit...



> Yes.  Ed's been in the biz longer than I've been alive, and figured out that the $5000 hit he was taking on some of the high end guitars getting labeled as "used" was too much.  Since adopting that policy, he gets sight-unseen orders from around the world, because people know that the guitar they get from Ed is going to be in pristine condition.



So because he's old, that means he's automatically optimizing the amount of profit he is making.  That's a fallacious argument.

My question is whether or not he actually sat down and calculated the costs of doing so versus the profit lost, or just went with his gut feeling.  Guess which one is most likely?



> Every person who buys a car at that dealership pays for wear and tear.  Its distributed among all buyers as a part of the dealer's overhead, along with salaries, physical plant, insurance, heating/cooling, utilities, theft, etc., which is reflected in higher base prices.  Eventually, the test vehicle is sold as a program car at a greatly lowered price.
> 
> But what we're talking about ISN'T a test drive.  On a test drive, there's the possibility that the driver may buy the vehicle at the location of the test.



And what determines this possibility?  You are saying that everyone driving a car *might* buy that car.  I content that is not the case.



> What we're talking about is:
> 
> 1) Consumer A hears about Product A, and decides if he's going to buy it, he is going to buy Product A at Retailer A.
> 2) Before buying Product A, Consumer A goes to Retailer B to examine Product A *already knowing* that Product A will be bought elsewhere.
> 3) By doing so, Consumer A raises Retailer B's costs in relation to Retailer A, and Retailer B cannot recover that cost from anyone else except Consumers B+ C + whomever.



What costs were raised and by how much?



> LGS's DO account for that cost, and Online retailers don't have to, and it is driving LGS owners nuts.  Online retailers suffer NO wear & tear on their product due to browsing- virtually their entire W&T is shifted to the LGS's bottom line-and the consumers complain that the LGS's aren't matching the online retailers' prices.



Online retailers have to account for mail fraud and damage in transit as well.  Do LGS cover that?  And just how much of a loss is caused by browsing anyways?  How many customers does it take to lower the price of a hardback book by 25%?



> 2) If the online retailer IS a predatory pricer, they can drop their prices indefinitely, and the cycle can continue until the RPG publisher declares bankruptcy.  Most online retailers are NOT after the millions in the business of selling games.  They are trying to reach, and eventually monopolize, the OTHER products for which gamers are the core target market- the multi-billion dollar scifi/fantasy/superhero movie/book/tv/game products.  The RPGs can be sold at a loss if it gets the gamers to the website to buy "Mighty DragonballZ X-Men vs Alien Predators 2: the video game and DVD box set" at $100/pop.



You are making two important assumptions here.  First, you assume that the online retailer is actively aware and trying to get rid of the smaller businesses.  While not impossible, this behavior is highly improbable.

Second, you assume that the online retailer can drive down prices indefinitely.  They cannot - their ultimate price is determined by the publisher.  The publisher is not required to sell it to Amazon, for example, and can actively choose to use another method of distribution.  

And products cannot be sold for a loss.  That is dumping and is illegal.


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## freebfrost (Jul 19, 2005)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> And I have in fact bought gaming books while on vacation. My honeymoon in fact.



Didn't you have better things to do???


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## TheYeti1775 (Jul 19, 2005)

freebfrost said:
			
		

> And products cannot be sold for a loss.  That is dumping and is illegal.



Actually that's only on stock that legal stuff comes into play.

If you remember the time before the Jiffy Lubes and what not your mechanic charged $20-30 to do your oil.  They come along advertise $15 for oil.  Guess what the favorite local mechanic shop couldn't compete.
So for a short time they take a loss at the new place, go into it now and what are they charging, about $30-40.


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## freebfrost (Jul 19, 2005)

Shining Dragon said:
			
		

> The resource you used therefore is the space made available for you to browse. So using the space without compensating the owner for it, especially if you go and make your purchases elsewhere (online) due to lower prices, can be seen to be unethical. And have you ever considered what you'll do if the store goes out of business? It'd be hypocritical of you to complain if you never supported the store.



So every customer who doesn't buy any item from this seller, regardless of intent, is costing him money.  So, if I go with a friend to a gaming store, and he buys a book and I don't, I am an opportunity cost for the seller?

Interesting, but flawed.

The opportunity cost is the cost of making an economic decision.  In this case, the opportunity cost is the seller choosing to stock copies of The d20 Guide to Economic Forecasting instead of The World's Largest Stock Market.  It does not reflect consumer behavior other than how that behavior reacts based on your economic decision and whether or not you've maximized your profit by choosing wisely or poorly.



> Also I think you have a strange idea about returning damaged books. If its damaged during shipping then they can return it. But being damaged by the customers? If all damaged books are able to be returned then ultimately someone is going to pay the cost - usually the customers through increased prices (due to increased cost of doing business).



Ever see the working side of retail stores?  You'd be amazed at what gets sent back - and those unscrupulous sellers are increasing our prices as a result!   Grrrrr!


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jul 19, 2005)

My local store sells product, that is pretty much the extent of thier service.  If they don't have something they will order it for you, but they never have any idea if or when it will show up since it's part of a chain, The Fantasy Shop, and they order from the central store.  So if 3-4 weeks go by without my book showing up and I ask them about it they just tell me they can order it again and see what happens.  I know its not the fault of the store employee since that is the system they have to work with but why do I keep shopping there for game books?  No discounts at all and not enough room for gaming.  Its right down the street from me, and I've been buying games and comics there since around 1985, through 3 different owners, and that's the only reason I shop there still as far as I can tell.  A habit I guess.  

If I go in tomorrow and they don't have my copy of Monsters & Treasures I'm going to tell them not to worry about it and just put it on the shelf when it does show up and I'm going to order it online.  No matter what the case I don't think I'll ask them to order any more stuff for me due to that kind of service.  It's far quicker for me to order it myself.  I'll still stop in there to grab minis and the three comics I still read but that is about it.

If they went under I wouldn't shed any tears, I'd just have to go to a better comics shop for those three comics that is about 5 minutes further away.  There isn't really anything wrong with the store, but its just a store.  I don't feel any guilt about not supporting them.


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## JamesDJarvis (Jul 19, 2005)

freebfrost said:
			
		

> Then you are a sucker.  Businesses have insurance to cover damaged goods, and that includes accidental breakage.  That business that you just paid is going to turn around and charge the insurer for the item and get double profit...




Not always, every policy doesn't cover relatively low cost single items.  Full value is very seldom returned either.

And double profit, not likely.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 19, 2005)

> So charge me with unethical behavior. Like I give a rat's ass.




Its sad that you take ethics so lightly.



> Then you are a sucker. Businesses have insurance to cover damaged goods, and that includes accidental breakage.




I'm not a sucker- I just have ethics.

Damaged goods are "insured" only in the sense of shipping damage (in which case the risk of loss depends on the shipping contract.  Once the risk of loss has shifted to the retailer, the only insurance clauses that cover inventory deal with things like fire, flood, and acts of god.  Since putting in a claim will likely raise the insured's rates (which would, in turn, raise operating costs, and thus prices), the only time a claim is made is when losses reach near total levels. Small numbers of broken merchandise are losses that can only be recovered by charging a certain percent markup on prices on the other units or throughout the store.



> Online retailers have to account for mail fraud and damage in transit as well.




No they don't.  You know that shipping charge you pay?  That is you paying not only for the cost of shipping but the risk of loss as well.  They have shifted that entire cost to you and the shipping company.  The price you pay is the cost of losses the shipping company suffers annually due to damages and mail fraud, distributed over their entire customer base.



> Dannyalcatraz
> 1) Consumer A hears about Product A, and decides if he's going to buy it, he is going to buy Product A at Retailer A.
> 2) Before buying Product A, Consumer A goes to Retailer B to examine Product A already knowing that Product A will be bought elsewhere.
> 3) By doing so, Consumer A raises Retailer B's costs in relation to Retailer A, and Retailer B cannot recover that cost from anyone else except Consumers B+ C + whomever.






> What costs were raised and by how much?




The same costs as on the test drive: the product recieves wear & tear; the cost of the employee's time wasted (since you have 0 interest in buying in that store) talking to you when he could have been doing something productive for the store like restocking or monitoring shoplifters; the opportunity costs of that employee not selling to someone else who MIGHT have an interest in spending money in the store, the physical damage your non-paying presence is doing to the infrastructure of the store, etc.

The costs would be calculated by:
1) figuring out the prorated cost of the employee's wages (lets say...$3.50 for 30 minutes) devoted to serving someone pretending to be a customer,
2) plus the opportunity cost of a lost sale: the probability of a sale by the employee who was waiting on you-  in a half-hour, I'd say 10%x the cost of the average (mean) product in the store - lets say $15, for another $1.50.  A weighted mean would be more accurate, but for that I'd need the prices of everything in the store + sales volume by product.
3) plus the cost of wear and tear on the product and other factors.  I'm just geussing here, but lets call it...$0.15.  Just remember, everything counts in large amounts.

Total, $5.15.



> Dannyalcatraz
> 2) If the online retailer IS a predatory pricer, they can drop their prices indefinitely, and the cycle can continue until the RPG publisher declares bankruptcy. Most online retailers are NOT after the millions in the business of selling games. They are trying to reach, and eventually monopolize, the OTHER products for which gamers are the core target market- the multi-billion dollar scifi/fantasy/superhero movie/book/tv/game products. The RPGs can be sold at a loss if it gets the gamers to the website ...






> You are making two important assumptions here. First, you assume that the online retailer is actively aware and trying to get rid of the smaller businesses. While not impossible, this behavior is highly improbable.




I can guarantee you that every major retailer- Wal-Mart, Amazon, B&N, etc. has access to reports that let them know who the competition is for every category of product they sell in every region.  I'm currently handling an account that breaks down a certain category of products in the D/FW market down to individual businesses spending as little as $13 dollars (not 13M, or thousand...just dollars) in that category.  LGSs fall into a category called "Specialty Stores" when it comes to things like sci-fi movie tie-ins- the money that the big boys REALLY want.



> Second, you assume that the online retailer can drive down prices indefinitely. They cannot - their ultimate price is determined by the publisher. The publisher is not required to sell it to Amazon, for example, and can actively choose to use another method of distribution.




And you called ME a sucker?  HA!

If they are trying to drive competition out of the market, Amazon (or any major online retailer) can drop prices on a particular category of product as low as they want because they move SO MUCH product, they can cover the loss with a few pennies added onto everything else they sell- and STILL pay off the publisher.  They can also decide to pay the publisher late, gaining money on the time-value of money.  This is what the major auto manufacturers do- they pay their suppliers 30-90 days late, all the while earning money on the money they haven't disbursed.

And as for not selling to Amazon- there isn't a publisher out there who doesn't want to have millions and millions of potential sales outlets.  Unless the terms of the agreement are egregious, most publishers would be loathe to pass up that opportunity.



> And products cannot be sold for a loss. That is dumping and is illegal.




Wrong again.  Products get sold for a loss every day by businesses.  Dumping is when products are sold at a loss_ as a sustained business practice in order to gain market share_- which, as the old saying goes, is not illegal 'till you get caught.

Dumping/Predatory pricing is one of the most common illegal business practices out there, at least as far as the allegations in filed lawsuits indicates.  Its also damned hard to prove because the best source of records you would need to prove a case of dumping/predatory pricing are in the hands of the alleged offender.

Currently, Wal-Mart is under investigation for predatory pricing in several states, and other retailers may follow.


----------



## Dristram (Jul 19, 2005)

TheYeti1775 said:
			
		

> Essentially in a nutshell, I believe so.
> 
> I'm not a business guy, but I know if I can get product for $23 and have a buyer at $26 what's to stop me.



It's funny you should say you're not a business guy because if you were, you wouldn't make this suggestion.     Here's why.

If I buy the book for $23 and sell it for $26, I’ve made $3.  Yay.  But, I want to be a game store and have this book in stock for other gamers, so I would repurchase the item, so I will have to spend another $23.  At that point, I’ve spent $46, and gotten $26 in return.  I'm in the hole $20.  If I want to make sure I have at least one copy of the book in stock, I will need to have sold that book 8 times to make $1.  In other words, I buy 9 books at $207 and sell 8 at $208, making $1 profit. 

Lets look at this another way.  Making $3 on a $26 book, is 11.5% margin.  If that is the norm for all the products in my store, lets look how much I need to sell to pay my bills.  My store rent is over $2k/month, but I’ll use $2k for this example.  In order for me to pay rent, I’ll need to sell $17.4k/month just to pay rent, or over $208k per year.  That’s just to pay rent!  Hmmm $208k in sales to pay $24k in rent.  Crazy!  As I look at my other bills, it just gets uglier. (_I hope I did my math right_  )

BTW, if we are to assume that Amazon.com has it's own distribution center, like WalMart and other big corporate stores, that means it purchases its products at the "distributor cost", so they are making a pretty nice margin even on such low prices.

(-Brad Daeda
Owner, Gamer's Keepe
Vacaville, CA


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## Dristram (Jul 19, 2005)

TheYeti1775 said:
			
		

> One thing that really needs to be thought about though for the brick & mortar is the number one factor for most in coming back is the customer service. <snip>
> So with LGS's it becomes a buyer's market. Find something we need, that the 'big box' can't. This is where your gaming table comes in. Host a Warhammer/Mini's tournement, with a small prize for the winner. Offer lamination of single sheets. DM's are always looking to protect some of their works somehow, what better way then to have something they can wipe off. Offer something that is unique to your shop. That's the only thing I can think of.
> Bring back the old Bulletin Board of Local Gamers seeking games/gammers. Haven't seen that in a store in ages. (Guess what you can use that also to mine for potential advertisement and what to stock.)



In my case, I provide all of the above things you mentioned and more.  I try to provide good customer service by greeting customers as they come in remembering their names and the products my customers like.  So, aparently, even good customer service is not good enough for all gamer to shop at a B&M store vs. online.  What I'm getting from this thread, is no matter what a game store does, short of matching online pricing, for some gamers, only price matters.  I am amazed at how cynical some gamers are towards game stores in this thread.  In some cases, it seems like it’s downright hatred.  It’s like game stores are viewed as the “bad guy”.  I come from a time when game stores were viewed as precious commodities.  “It’s a store that’s dedicated to my beloved hobby.  How cool!”   Skiers have their ski shops, paintballers have their shops, and even geeky gamers have *their* shops!  But it seems, evident from this thread, many gamers see game stores as antiquated and only marginally useful, if that.  I’m still trying to figure out when this happened.  I sure missed it!  I valued game stores so much that I opened my own.  Thankfully, there are a lot of gamers in my area that see the value of having a game store in their town and support it.  Thus I'm still in business...for now.

FWIW, I've been running my game store for 1 1/2 years, 6 days/week, 70+ hours/week, just to create a game store gamers can call their own.  So far, I'm doing well enough to survive, but still not well enough to hire employees and continue to improve my store.  At this point, I'm beginning to wonder if all the gamers in my area that are left for me to gain as customers are dedicated online shoppers.  I don't know what else I can do to earn their business.  Offering a discount will hurt me more than help.  Even if offering a discount increases sales, the increase will never offset the loss from the discount.

As for shopping at a B&M store knowing you'll be ordering online, I'm not going to bring ethics into it, but what I will say is out of *respect* for the hard work, time, effort, and money put into running a small business, if you're not going to buy from the store, don't shop at the store.

(-Brad Daeda
Owner, Gamer's Keepe


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## Dristram (Jul 19, 2005)

These comments are just dead wrong.  At least from the side of a small business retailer.



			
				freebfrost said:
			
		

> Then you are a sucker.  Businesses have insurance to cover damaged goods, and that includes accidental breakage.  That business that you just paid is going to turn around and charge the insurer for the item and get double profit...



If a customer is looking at a book, dropps it scratching the cover and ripping a page, then puts it quietly back on the shelf, I've just lost money which my insurance won't cover.



			
				freebfrost said:
			
		

> Ever see the working side of retail stores?  You'd be amazed at what gets sent back - and those unscrupulous sellers are increasing our prices as a result!



If a product is damaged in my store, I have no way to return it.  I believe the big corporations work deals that allow them to do that though.  But not us small guys.

(-Brad Daeda
Owner, Gamer's Keepe


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## Thorin Stoutfoot (Jul 19, 2005)

*Retail has to evolve*



			
				Dristram said:
			
		

> I  I come from a time when game stores were viewed as precious commodities.  “It’s a store that’s dedicated to my beloved hobby.  How cool!”   Skiers have their ski shops, paintballers have their shops, and even geeky gamers have *their* shops!  But it seems, evident from this thread, many gamers see game stores as antiquated and only marginally useful, if that.  I’m still trying to figure out when this happened.  I sure missed it!




I haven't been to a physical game store for years. The same goes for bookstores (though Borders at Christmas reeled me in by giving a massive discount for a book I wanted). And clothing stores, etc. If I know that I want something, I'll buy it on-line if I can. It's more convenient, I don't have to deal with grubby clerks behind the counter, and getting into the car to go somewhere just for one trip. It's not just games --- my brothers buy their ski equipment on eBay, and I bought my bicycle on eBay as well. Why pay retail?

Now, I still visit bike shops, but that's because they provide something no one on-line can provide: service. If I can't fix my bike myself, I have no choice but to find an expert who can. Until game store retailers provide something similar, I have no reason to visit a game store. And it's not unusual for me to know more about bikes and games than the typical bike shop/game shop owner, so you have to be an exceptionally knowledgeable bike shop/game shop owner with an exceptionally talented staff before I'm even interested in shopping there.


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## ShinHakkaider (Jul 19, 2005)

Dristram said:
			
		

> What I'm getting from this thread, is no matter what a game store does, short of matching online pricing, for some gamers, only price matters.




See now it depends on the product though. At the time when I was still frequenting my LGS, I wanted to purchase WLD, but there was NO WAY that I was paying $100 for that. I found it on-line for about $60. 

I've said it repeatedly and it really seems like some of you are purposefully ignoring this point so I'm gonna keep beating this until you guys get it or DIE. IF I had a gamestore that was actually nice and worth frequenting then yeah, honestly, I'd support them with SOME of my purchases. "Big Ticket" items like Necromancer's upcoming Wilderland's boxed set would be bought online. But I would have purchased either Heroes of Battle OR DM's Guide II from the LGS, but not both as I would have been able to on Amazon. 

So I, the consumer, deny myself a product that I want just to support the LGS? That doesnt seem right at all... But if there were an LGS around me worth supporting I might.



			
				Dristram said:
			
		

> I am amazed at how cynical some gamers are towards game stores in this thread.  In some cases, it seems like it’s downright hatred.




Yeah, but not for nothing this thread doesnt exactly make me want to rush out and support if you know what I mean. Not your replies per say, which have been really civil, but some of the other "support your local game store or it's your fault that our industry implodes" people really need to chill the hell on out. Seriously, instead of taking the consumer to task who honestly is either trying to save a buck or get more for his money, what you need to do is get at some of these weak ass game stores for not taking thier buisness more seriously. I've heard more horror stories about LGS than good ones, but still some of you are still droning on with "support, support". And in light of those horror stories and economic theory and how buisness works none of you have convinced me of the fact that if your local game store SUCKS ROCKS why a consumer should still support it. 

Amazon, B&N, and Wal-mart may win in the end. The LGS may disappear off of the face of the earth (unlikely). Alot of publishers that I like my go under (if the go the direct sales and/or PDF route, unlikely). It still doenst change the fact that people will still be able to play the RPG's that they have. I personally dont need new add-on rules and suppliments every other month. I buy them because I LIKE THEM not because I NEED THEM. When they start getting to costly or too lame I stop buying them. Youre talking to someone who has 6 WH40K armies. Six (Eldar, Dark Eldar, Space Wolves, Tau, Tyranid and Necrons). I was buying to assemble and paint not to play. But when GW began drivng thier prices through the roof I stopped buying the mini's. For a while I got them from online vendors, but when they put the kabosh on that, then nothing. My point is it's not like I don't mind spending the money, but if youre gonna insist that I buy the product from you then you need to offer me something more in return than just the product. You evidently do, my local LGS does not, so Amazon, here I come.


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## Numion (Jul 19, 2005)

Dristram said:
			
		

> But it seems, evident from this thread, many gamers see game stores as antiquated and only marginally useful, if that.  I’m still trying to figure out when this happened.  I sure missed it!  I valued game stores so much that I opened my own.  Thankfully, there are a lot of gamers in my area that see the value of having a game store in their town and support it.  Thus I'm still in business...for now.




For me it's the fact that you can gain much more information about new releases online. The guys at the shop I frequent dont know nearly as much about the products as I do. I wouldn't be surprised if they still asked whether the product I asked for was for 2nd ed  :\  So, there's really no advantage to going to a store instead of researching the the book online. 

However, being as it may, the shop is the only fantasy shop nearby, and online shopping isn't as attractive in Finland as in the states, so I still have to go there. I do some shopping from the US amazon that is much cheaper than that store, due to weak dollar, even with shipping.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 20, 2005)

> I've said it repeatedly and it really seems like some of you are purposefully ignoring this point so I'm gonna keep beating this until you guys get it or DIE. IF I had a gamestore that was actually nice and worth frequenting then yeah, honestly, I'd support them with SOME of my purchases.




You have obviously missed the responses by myself and others that we're not advocating supporting local stores merely because they're local.

I (and others) advocate supporting WORTHY local stores, and I further suggest informing those found unworthy WHY they won't be getting your business.


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## ShinHakkaider (Jul 20, 2005)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> You have obviously missed the responses by myself and others that we're not advocating supporting local stores merely because they're local.
> 
> I (and others) advocate supporting WORTHY local stores, and I further suggest informing those found unworthy WHY they won't be getting your business.




Me:  I've said it repeatedly and it really seems like some of you...

SOME of you. If youre NOT one of those people that I'm talking about then I'm not addressing you. Not being snarky here, I'm just sayin'...

Secondly there are no other local stores, or I should be more specific, stores that are local to me that are WORTHY. Neutral Ground mainly caters to CCG / miniature gamers  and I only frequent it if I'm desperate for a specific miniature or paint. Complete Strat is a good store in terms of selection and staff but I dont particularly care for the guy who runs the place and it offers me nothing more than availability so I stopped spending money there. 

Right now online shopping benefits me more, until someone opens a WORTHY gamestore nearby...


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## ShadowDenizen (Jul 20, 2005)

First off, I will say that I am fortunate enough to have a great FLGS nearby. (Anyone in the Boston area, check out Danger Planet!!)    

Plugs aside, I will say that I do most of my gaming purchases there,  though I will go online (through Amazon or whatever) if the incentive is there: I was able to purchase WLD for $60 (versus the $100 SRP.)  And I don't think that's unreasonable, given that my purchases (I do board, card, and RP'ing games) at my local FLGS(s) far outweigh the things I buy online.

Indeed, the staff at my FLGS know my tastes, and actually put aside stuff they think I might like, even if I didn't special-order it.  (They know, for instance, that I will buy just about any "Midnight" or "Eberron" supplement.)  I return the favor by telling them what I think will sell in the world of Role-Playing, since that is not their area of expertise. '

However, I think the main reason that I support the local stores (and it's not JUST DP I support, though that's the most convenient to me) is that it's a natural place to meet new people, get opinions, and perhaps make some friends.

Even at stores that don't offer Open Gaming Space, it's easy enough to strike up a conversation, knowing that we have something in common.  Indeed, many of my closest friends have been made at local stores, through sheer happenstance.

However, as I am friends with the owner of my FLGS, I have an idea of how tough it is to make ends meet doing this for a living.  I know that he (and probably most other FLGS owners) do it for the love they have for gaming.



> t I'm getting from this thread, is no matter what a game store does, short of matching online pricing, for some gamers, only price matters.




Actually, I do know a few local gamers who ONLY worry about the price, but I think they're very much in the minority.  (At least from what I can tell from my experiences.)


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jul 20, 2005)

You know.  I think I used to love the FLGS a lot more when it was Doug and the Ravensloft instead of the Maplewood branch of the Fantasy Shop chain.  Maybe its my inherent distrust of chain stores buying out the local shops and my desire to stick it to the man?


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## Some guy from Ohio (Jul 20, 2005)

```
It basically says, "One is not permitted to ask the storekeeper the price of an item if he knows he will not purchase it." I have read some extend this to browsing and taking up a shopkeeper's time knowing you will never purchase either, that is, just not asking the price doesn't the browser get off clean. You are actively fooling the shopkeeping and making them waste their time and effort. Time is money. If this is an hourly wage employee, you have practically stolen the portion of the hourly wage from that employee to entertain you.
```


```
It is completely unethical. You're using false pretenses to waste someone's time. Even if you come in and say "no, I don't need help", you're inflicting wear on materials and taking up space.
```

This “unethical” practice has proven to be a very successful business model for some of the hated giants of business such as Barnes&Nobles; where you can hang out and read all day long.


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## Some guy from Ohio (Jul 20, 2005)

oops.  I quoted improperly. :\


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## JesterPoet (Jul 20, 2005)

Dristram said:
			
		

> As for shopping at a B&M store knowing you'll be ordering online, I'm not going to bring ethics into it, but what I will say is out of *respect* for the hard work, time, effort, and money put into running a small business, if you're not going to buy from the store, don't shop at the store.




Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on my personal practice (and, I'm sure, the practice of quite a few others):  I buy some items at my FLGS (paints, minis, and the occasional board game or RPG book I can't wait for) and browse other things that I buy online (most of my RPG books and board games)?

Is this really all that unfair to the retailer?  After all, he's getting my money.  I don't support him by buying all the big ticket items he has available that I want, and I do browse them in his store when I'm in there.  However, I do support him.  I do buy product from him.  On items where his price is competitive (very few) I will buy.  I also buy books I can't wait for (I think this has only happened once) and occasionally buy board games, plus I do a lot of last minute christmas shopping there.  However, I definitely buy more of the stuff online than I do in the store.

I don't, however, use any of their gaming space.  I don't stand around talking to the salespeople, and, unless I'm special ordering something, I don't waste their time at all.  If your store were in my neighborhood, would you rather not have any or my money?  Is it an all or nothing proposition?


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jul 20, 2005)

Some guy from Ohio said:
			
		

> This “unethical” practice has proven to be a very successful business model for some of the hated giants of business such as Barnes&Nobles; where you can hang out and read all day long.



It's almost like you misinterpreted all I wrote intentionally...


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## S'mon (Jul 20, 2005)

I only shop online, but I still mail order a lot from a London-based LGS, Leisure Games - their prices are usually higher than discounters (though their low postage charge means not always), but their service has always been excellent.  I think LGSes can compete if they offer superior service, whether real or virtual.


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## Waldorf (Jul 20, 2005)

Dristram said:
			
		

> As for shopping at a B&M store knowing you'll be ordering online, I'm not going to bring ethics into it, but what I will say is out of *respect* for the hard work, time, effort, and money put into running a small business, if you're not going to buy from the store, don't shop at the store.




Uh, no. I'll do what I like, thank you.


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## farscapesg1 (Jul 20, 2005)

Waldorf said:
			
		

> Uh, no. I'll do what I like, thank you.




Gee, that was helpful.  And some people wonder why shops want to shrinkwrap everything  :\ 

Since I don't have a local shop that carries anything I am interested in, I admit that I do my browsing at B&N, Waldenbooks, Hastings, etc.  Basically, the big chain stores.  Since I had a good experience in high school and college with a local store, I wouldn't look through anything at a LGS without buying something while I was there to offset the cost of browsing.



			
				Waldorf said:
			
		

> For me it's the fact that you can gain much more information about new releases online. The guys at the shop I frequent dont know nearly as much about the products as I do. I wouldn't be surprised if they still asked whether the product I asked for was for 2nd ed  So, there's really no advantage to going to a store instead of researching the the book online.




This sums up another big issue on my part, and is the main reason that I don't worry too much that I don't have a good LGS in my area.  If I can get all the review information and details on the Internet, I can usually make a pretty good informed decision on the purchase beforehand.  Even in high school when I went to the game store, the owner tried to keep up with all the new releases, but just couldn't do it.  In today's information age, being able to go and browse through a book that I am already thinking about isn't that big of deal.


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## Dristram (Jul 20, 2005)

JesterPoet said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on my personal practice:  I buy some items at my FLGS (paints, minis, and the occasional board game or RPG book I can't wait for) and browse other things that I buy online (most of my RPG books and board games)?
> 
> Is this really all that unfair to the retailer?



No.  I, as a retailer, would be happy that my store is providing something for you.  As for browsing the books and then buying online, I feel since you are a paying customer, it's my job to try and win your RPG sales as well.  If I can't, then I can't.  It sounds to me that you're going to the store to buy something, and the browse other stuff while you're there.  That's fine.

What makes me feel disrespected, is when a person comes to my store with the sole purpose to check out something they're debating on buying online, and use the products in my store to help in that decision.  At that point, I've spent precious money to make a sale for some internet store.  That's not money well spent.

So, keep doing what you're doing   

(-Brad Daeda
Owner, Gamer's Keepe
Vacaville, CA


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## Dristram (Jul 20, 2005)

Waldorf said:
			
		

> Uh, no. I'll do what I like, thank you.



Hmm...well then don't be surprised if a store catches on to you and your attitude and asks you to "please leave the store".  They have the right to refuse service to anyone, and being able to browse their products is a service they provide, and can deny to you.

(-Brad


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 21, 2005)

> This “unethical” practice has proven to be a very successful business model for some of the hated giants of business such as Barnes&Nobles; where you can hang out and read all day long.




1)  I have friends who work for B&N...they pointed out to me that their online prices are (usually) lower than store prices.  Hang out there all day, buy their coffee, and you'll pay for that browsing.

However, most LGS's cannot provide that kind of space.  B&N can because of the price of its goods, and a thriving online business.

2)  Studies have shown that the longer people stay in a retail store, the more they buy, in general.  Hang out there all day, and you may find yourself making more impulse buys, like magazines (which, BTW, are ALWAYS situated near the cash registers and/or doors) or new releases.

3)  Once again, mere browsing isn't unethical- its browsing with 0% interest in buying.  Of course, if you wind up making an impulse buy...


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## S'mon (Jul 21, 2005)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> 1)  I have friends who work for B&N...they pointed out to me that their online prices are (usually) lower than store prices.




FLGSes can do this too to an extent by not charging for p&p or keeping p&p costs low, to just the cost of the actual postage - after all it costs the customer money to visit the store, and it costs the shop money to staff the store, so there's scope for a cut on online sales.  Most online retailers have high p&p charges (amazon certainly does), cutting it out can even things up without the retailer undercutting their bricks & mortar business.


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## Dristram (Jul 21, 2005)

*Thoughts on all this*

The following is just my theory and perception of the state of the hobby game industry today.

FLGSs are still around currently because there are gamers who still buy from them.  But FLGSs are not thriving.   The move of gamers to buy online is hurting quality game stores more than non-quality ones.  Quality game stores generally have higher overhead costs and so need higher sales to survive.  They will spend extra money on rent to get a nice store in a nice location, and also on nice fixtures to make the store look nice and organized.  So, as sales to the B&M stores shrink, the quality stores are the first to go, which leaves the poor quality, dark, dingy, and stinky stores, as the only ones around to shop at, as long as those owners have enough good business sense to manage to stay open.

It looks like a domino effect happened to get where things are today.  Online game stores popped up, and gamers started buying from them.  Soon after, some quality game stores got caught off-guard and closed because of the loss of sales, and others changed their product mix (ala exchanging RPGs for CCGs, comics, and/or miniatures) to survive.  Many poor quality game stores survived just fine because of their low overhead.  Gamers began complaining either they no longer had a local game store, or their local game store stopped carrying a good selection of RPGs, or their local game store was too dark, dingy, stinky and dusty, causing more gamers begin shopping online.  Eventually, things settled to where they are now.  Rare is the game store that is full of all the newly released RPGs because they no longer have the customer base to support it.  More common are game stores focused on CCGs and miniature games.  Even those products can be bought online, but a game store is often instrumental for players to find other players for those games.  Especially game stores that provide play space and run events.

I guess my point to all this is game stores are adjusting to the RPG customer base’s move to the internet, thus why RPGs are not so dominant in many game stores anymore.  If the gamers went back to buying their RPGs from B&M game stores, there would be an increase in RPG selection in the stores again, and an increase in the number quality game stores.  From the looks of this thread, it ain’t gonna happen.  But, from my point of view, as a gamer and game store owner, it would be nice for RPGs to be a major product line in game stores again.  

(-Brad Daeda
Owner, Gamer's Keepe


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## Dristram (Jul 21, 2005)

*Here's a question*

I'm curious about something.

If game manufacturers dropped their retail prices to the average online price for their books, would those of you who buy online buy them for that price at B&M stores even if the online prices dropped as well?

For example, lets say the Weapons of Legacy retail price from the manufacturer dropped to $23.95 and Amazon sold it for $14.39.  Would you then buy it from your FLGS for $23.95, or still get it online anyway?

(-Brad Daeda
Owner, Gamer's Keepe


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 22, 2005)

> Dannyalcatraz
> 1) I have friends who work for B&N...they pointed out to me that their online prices are (usually) lower than store prices.






> S'mon
> FLGSes can do this too to an extent...




True, but, for some reason I have yet to fathom, most of the game stores I frequent do not have an appreciable online presence, at least as far as sales go.  Of the 3 I use in Dallas, only one (the largest of the 3) even has a web page- and a pretty good one it is, too.

I _suspect_ that the 2 smaller stores may not have enough room in their budget to go online.

The traditional MBA response to this "take out a loan and buy that internet outlet or die," but I also suspect those stores are already highly leveraged or their owners don't have good enough credit to get a loan sufficiently large enough to do a proper website.


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## Rykion (Jul 22, 2005)

Some guy from Ohio said:
			
		

> This “unethical” practice has proven to be a very successful business model for some of the hated giants of business such as Barnes&Nobles; where you can hang out and read all day long.




Getting shoppers to hang around is one way big stores make more money.  The longer they stay, the more likely they are to spend money.  The practice is usually combined with refreshments so that people can stay even longer.  It is why B & N sells coffee and why some Wal-Marts have McDonalds in them.   The shopping mall with food court is the ultimate example of this business model.   Hanging around in a business with no intention to purchase is still loitering, and most have rules against this.  Many malls are creating new policies to cut down on loitering people that scare away actual customers.  It usually takes the form of age restrictions without an adult during certain hours.


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## Jarrod (Jul 22, 2005)

Some guy from Ohio said:
			
		

> This “unethical” practice has proven to be a very successful business model for some of the hated giants of business such as Barnes&Nobles; where you can hang out and read all day long.




Close, but a little different.

Case 1: Person goes into the store, looks through the stock, unsure whether they'll get something or not. They drink coffee, ask questions, and make a decision.

Case 2: Person goes into the store knowing that they're not going to buy anything from the store; in fact, they're going to spend their money elsewhere. 

B&N work off of the first. I, and others, are claiming the second is unethical. The upside of an online store is cheaper prices; the downside is that you can't browse. If you go to another store to browse, KNOWING THAT YOU ARE GOING TO BUY ONLINE (sorry, but that's the key part that keeps getting ignored....), it is unethical.

I go to my FLGS to browse all the time. I look through books and decide not to get them. In fact, I probably spend money fewer than half the times I walk in the door. But I will not go in there and decide whether to get something knowing that I'm going to buy it off Amazon. The ten bucks just isn't worth it.


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## FickleGM (Jul 22, 2005)

Wow, what a thought provoking thread.  It appears that we have some irreconsilable differences instigated by the pricing strategies of the "big boy" online retailers.  This seems to be magnified by our culture's quick reward lifestyle, promoted through fast-food, internet purchasing, automatic deposit/withdrawal, etc.

In the short-term (and in some cases the long-term), these services are a boon to the average person and another blessing of advancing technology.  Unfortunately, this hurts the FLGS by luring potential customers to the online services.

Is this the fault of the customer?  No, being able to get what you are looking for at a cheaper price (and in some cases being able to by additional product) is very helpful.  The roleplaying game market is a luxury market.  These products are not essential, therefore, saving money will improve a customer's means to provide essential products.

Is this the fault of the online retailer?  No, being able to offer a product to the customer at a cost that will increase business and provide a profit is what capitalism is all about.  Businesses compete for customers and online, mass-retailers have an advantage in that arena (I am not talking about any illegal practices, as those are obviously against the law for a reason and I'll not accuse all online retailers of anything that I cannot prove - so, I'll remain cautiously suspiscious on that topic).

Is this the fault of the FLGS?  No, being able to offer a product to the customer and provide a profit (see above) also forces B&M establishments to offer products at higher prices (due to extra costs).  As has been mentioned - timeliness, convenience, service and additional amenities are the weapons that FLGSes have to battle online retailers.  Unfortunately, these don't always make up for the "putting bread on the table" savings that online retailers provide.  This spiral of death is also partly responsible for declining service, as the FLGS can only afford to hire from the bottom of the barrel (the top of the barrel will work for more money at a high-end retailer).

Is this the fault of the publishers?  No, being able to sell large volumes only helps their business.  It may be sad to see FLGSes suffer, but as the saying goes, "business is business".

In the end, the online retailer can remain silent and hidden (unless sued for wrongful practices), while offering unbeatable prices.  The publisher can continue to provide product to whoever will buy.  Meanwhile, the customer and the FLGS wage verbal wars on the ethics of buying practices in a vain attempt to either defend their practices or shame the practices of the other.

This is not a battle that FLGSes can win, they can only hope to tread water (obviously the best of them will be exceptions).  FLGSes only have two powerful weapons and one of them is more of an "explodes upon death" sort of weapon.  They can provide the best of service and convenience with the hopes of coming out alive.  Failing that, they can die off and when the online retailers have no competition and raise their prices and the customers begin to complain that the FLGS is not there for them...  

By the way, I do approve of the shaming tactics.  Even if some of you are offended or don't give a rat's arse, others may not realize what they are doing and may rethink their practices (if you choose not to, that is your decision).  It may help their businesses.

Sorry, not much in the way of helpful advice, just a commentary of what I see...YMMV


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## two (Jul 22, 2005)

{From back in this thread's past:

Quote:
If it's cheaper, that's where I'm going. I'll save a noble attitude for noble causes.

I certainly don't think this is childish. A little harsh perhaps but I pretty much agree. I don't care what the product or service is, money is money. I find it extremely difficult to shell out an extra $10-12 on average for the same book I can get on Amazon or ebay.

I have to agree with the sentiment that if they can't survive or come up with clever ways to attract customers, it's not my moral responsbility to keep them in business.}

This sort of logic only makes sense in a vacuum.  We don't live in a vacuum.

If FloorMart can sell you a t-shirt for 5 cents, and everyone else is selling t-shirts for 1$, should you buy the t-shirt from FloorMart?

Vacuum answer:  yes, it's cheaper.

Real-world answer:  probably not, given the huge disparity in cost, which is only possible when somebody, somewhere, is being vastly underpaid and overworked.  And buying from FloorMart supports that kind of abuse.

How does this relate to your local FLGS?  

Not in the direct abuse sort of way, obviously.  Are there other issues involved?  Well, you have to think about it.

That's the trouble.

We simply don't live in a vacuum. 

Staying "price is low ergo I buy" simply isn't responsible and sometimes won't be ethical OR moral.

Sadly, the world is complicated; people that CAN thank have a responsibility TO think, and decide these sorts of issues at least for themselves (and hopefully influence others).

In theory, I like "low price best" just fine.  Great.  Peachy-keen-o.

In real life, I have never been into WalMart and never will go into WalMart, for many obvious and well-documented reasons.

To sum:  only using price as your guideline is a complete and utter cop out -- at best.

{for another really basic and really stupid example, buying furniture made from clear-cut Amazon woods (cheap) or furniture made from sustainable wood (more expensive).  Low price wins out = support of that sort of harvesting}


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## FickleGM (Jul 22, 2005)

two said:
			
		

> This sort of logic only makes sense in a vacuum.  We don't live in a vacuum.




Nicely put (as well as follow-up explanations).  Unfortunately, we also do not live in a black & white world.  Many people do think and do not agree that supporting Wal-Mart is bad.  Many people do think it is bad, but a necessary bad based on their economic situations.  Of course, there are also many people who do not give it a thought beyond the cost.

So, the practice of buying for less, while not always on the best side of the ethical scale, is also not always a result of not thinking or of choosing wrong.  A person who wants to support a "bottom line" type of retailer may have completely valid reasons (not including the practice of using the FLGS as a scouting arena).

I do, for the most part, agree with your points.


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## Tatsukun (Jul 22, 2005)

two said:
			
		

> Vacuum answer:  yes, it's cheaper.
> 
> Real-world answer:  probably not, given the huge disparity in cost, which is only possible when somebody, somewhere, is being vastly underpaid and overworked.  And buying from FloorMart supports that kind of abuse.
> ...
> ...




Hang on, lemme think. Hmm..    hm...  hmmmm...

Nope, buy the cheaper one. I don't have enough cash lying around to go all super hero 
do-gooder with it. Maybe some day I will be rich and I will be able to pay extra to assuage the ‘guilt of living in a developed nation’. Right now, I am just happy it's not ME getting the short end this time, as there are plenty of times I do. 

Sob stories don’t add value to the more expensive product. Don’t pay extra for it. In the immortal words of my personal idol (Eric Cartman) "I hate hippies!". 

Then again, I have been described as Chaotic Evil in the past...

  -Tatsu


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## Waldorf (Jul 22, 2005)

Once upon a time there was a little bookstore on the east coast of the US. Over time it flourished and grew, finally becoming a chain of stores called Barnes and Nobles. How did it get so big? Well, it didn't cater to a niche market like some of those christian bookstores you see around, or even gamers for that matter, but rather to ALL readers, selling almost every book published at the time. That's why B&N prospered, people, by appealing to the largest market possible. 

If game store owners want to bellyache about the bigboys like Walmart, Barnes and Nobles, and Amazon and why people prefer to shop there, maybe they should consider the fact that limiting themselves to a niche product is precisely the reason they will never be able to grow beyond mom and pop status. Furthermore, writing long guilt trips to the gaming community about why people should support you isn't going to keep you afloat, gaming store man; appealing to the broader base will. But I sincerely doubt these owners will see the reason in that. I think they just want a place to keep out of the sun and meet gamers.


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## wingsandsword (Jul 22, 2005)

Waldorf said:
			
		

> If game store owners want to bellyache about the bigboys like Walmart, Barnes and Nobles, and Amazon and why people prefer to shop there, maybe they should consider the fact that limiting themselves to a niche product is precisely the reason they will never be able to grow beyond mom and pop status. Furthermore, writing long guilt trips to the gaming community about why people should support you isn't going to keep you afloat, gaming store man; appealing to the broader base will. But I sincerely doubt these owners will see the reason in that. I think they just want a place to keep out of the sun and meet gamers.



Did you ever think that most gaming stores want to be "Mom & Pop" stores, not everybody gets into business to become a big nationwide chain.  Just like nobody gets into being a game writer/designer to get rich, nobody (sensibly) goes into selling gaming materials to get rich, people sell and make the games largely for the love of the game.  Gaming stores are more than bookstores, far more than just a place that sells books.  Let's look at two successful FLGS in my home city and how they succeed despite Amazon.com and big-box stores:

*The Rusty Scabbard.*  It's been around for about 20 years, so I think it's safe to say whatever it's doing it's doing well.  About 30% of it's internal volume is devoted to gaming books, with a very large selection of books, including minor d20 publishers, an entire bookcase of GURPS, all kinds of small press/minor games, and the obligatory Wall o' WotC in the back (along with d20 Fantasy stuff).  An entire wall of reaper minis (as well as old Ral Partha minis, special minis lines like the Arcana Evolved and Elmore minis series, and the Mongoose Babylon 5, Judge Dredd and Starship Troopers minis games), a bookcase of used games for sale also finish out the tabletop area.  Another ~30% of the store is devoted to miniatures games, and this includes those expensive Games Workshop games that people come in and dutifully buy several hundred dollars worth at a time every time I'm in there, as well as loads of painting/terrain stuff (including the neato MasterMaze stuff from Dwarven Forge), and of course all the Wizkids and WotC collectable minis.  Then there is an entire wall devoted to current and popular CCG's, and a wall devoted to out-of-print or less popular CCG's (and a buck-a-piece bin of low-interest CCG's), not to mention loads of non-collectable card games and board games (Catan, Axis & Allies, Fluxx, Lunch Money et al).  Under glass at the counter are some rare books (like the 1e D&DG with Cthuhlu mythos) and other special merchandise, like the fancy precious stone/metal dice, and some hand-painted metal minis.  A display selling dice on it's own about the size of the gaming displays in chain bookstores selling d3's to d100's tops it out, with big displays of card sleeves and storage boxes too.  Then there is the icing on the cake of three gaming tables, with almost always somebody playing miniatures games on them and a library of terrain in the back.  It also has very nice service about special orders, and very knowledgeable and friendly staff who are certainly experts on their subject matter and quickly learn the preferences of regular customers.  Even the biggest "big box" bookstore or website couldn't provide all this, it is a "full service" FLGS and does good business based on that. 

*A+ Comics and Collectables.  *It's been around for about 5 years, and has been growing steadily, so it's looking pretty good.  In terms of gaming materials, it has a large bookcase with all the up to date WotC and White Wolf publications on it (and a relatively small amount of odds & ends older books, mostly old WoD stuff and AD&D 2e materials), as well as ample supplies of collectable miniatures games and a wall of popular and mainstream CCG's.  This is probably about a quarter of it's business, although it does have large tables in the back that are often host to CCG or CMG tournaments (which seem to always be going on when I go there).  Most of the rest of the store is dedicated to comic books, comic related merchandise, and collectors toys (old Star Wars, GI Joe and similar toys up for sale and resale).  It's gaming aspects are secondary to the comic/collector aspects of the store, but it still stocks much more gaming books and materials than the Barnes & Noble on the outskirts of town.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jul 22, 2005)

Waldorf said:
			
		

> If game store owners want to bellyache about the bigboys like Walmart, Barnes and Nobles, and Amazon and why people prefer to shop there, maybe they should consider the fact that limiting themselves to a niche product is precisely the reason they will never be able to grow beyond mom and pop status.



There we go, wisdom from the customer, who we all know knows best.  Ah... the proctologist viewpoint of retail health. They specialize in looking at quality and quantity of what gets ... put out... there can't be any other perspective worth looking from, could there?

(_prepares for another analogy flying over people's heads_)


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## S'mon (Jul 22, 2005)

Dristram said:
			
		

> For example, lets say the Weapons of Legacy retail price from the manufacturer dropped to $23.99 and Amazon sold it for $14.39.  Would you then buy it from your FLGS for $23.99, or still get it online anyway?
> (-Brad Daeda
> Owner, Gamer's Keepe




This would have zero effect on my buying practices I think.  I look for the best combination of service & price.  Eg I paid ca 70p extra this week to get a book from Leisure Games rather than a discount retailer because I knew I'd get it very fast (like day after they got my order!  woot!) rather than in 2 weeks or so (if lucky).


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## S'mon (Jul 22, 2005)

DPost


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## Rykion (Jul 22, 2005)

FickleGM said:
			
		

> <snip>
> Is this the fault of the customer? No, being able to get what you are looking for at a cheaper price (and in some cases being able to by additional product) is very helpful. The roleplaying game market is a luxury market. These products are not essential, therefore, saving money will improve a customer's means to provide essential products.
> 
> <snip>
> ...




I don't disagree with most of your points, but you do have the interaction between luxuries and essentials backwards. Saving money on essentials will give you more money for luxuries. Saving money on luxuries will give you more money for other luxuries, but will never give you more money for essentials. Essentials are things you have to buy to continue living. If you can not afford them, you can not afford any luxury. Some people do buy luxuries in place of essentials, but they tend to be addicts that see their luxury as a needed essential. You can choose to spend more money than normal on essentials, but then they become luxuries, such as when you go to a restaurant rather than eating cheaper at home. No discount on RPGs puts bread on anyone's table. Discounted luxuries might allow someone to choose to eat more expensively or buy more gaming materials, but no sane person chooses to continuously go without food to buy luxuries.


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## Mark Chance (Jul 26, 2005)

Dristram said:
			
		

> For example, lets say the Weapons of Legacy retail price from the manufacturer dropped to $23.95 and Amazon sold it for $14.39.  Would you then buy it from your FLGS for $23.95, or still get it online anyway?




Would I still buy from Amazon? Yes, unless I found a less expensive price elsewhere. There is nothing that a game store offers me that is worth the extra expense.

For example, I've purchased three of the _Complete..._ books during the past week. I got all three for $37.30 US, including S&H. That's a total savings of more than $50 US, and I didn't have to leave the comfort of my home, put up with Houston traffic, stand in line at the store, et cetera.

For me, that is money, time, and hassle well-saved.


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## ssampier (Jul 26, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Did you ever think that most gaming stores want to be "Mom & Pop" stores, not everybody gets into business to become a big nationwide chain.  {snip}
> 
> *The Rusty Scabbard.*  It's been around for about 20 years, so I think it's safe to say whatever it's doing it's doing well.  A Then there is the icing on the cake of three gaming tables, with almost always somebody playing miniatures games on them and a library of terrain in the back.  It also has very nice service about special orders, and *very knowledgeable and friendly staff who are certainly experts on their subject matter and quickly learn the preferences of regular customers.  Even the biggest "big box" bookstore or website couldn't provide all this, it is a "full service" FLGS and does good business based on that*.
> Emphasis Added




You hit the nail on the head, service. Why should I support my game store where the game owner treats me like an annoyance and his regular clintele are spoiled brats? Now if the store was more comfortable to shop in, the owner more knowledgable about his products, and provided a nice place to game in, I may be inclined to shop there.

[ssampier's dream world]*
In my dream world, I would own two types of games shops: *Discount Store*  A large, spacious warehouse style environment with discounted books, games, hobbies, and accessories. I would feature weekly tournaments and large gaming space.

*Boutique style*: This would feature a more intimate environment located in a sub-urban environment, near a shopping mall and close to parks, bike paths, and/or schools. The emphasis would be unmatched customer service and product support. The selection would be slightly less than the warehouse store.

[/ssampier dream world]

* I know this may not work in the real world, but hey, I like the fantasy


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## Dristram (Jul 29, 2005)

Mark Chance said:
			
		

> For example, I've purchased three of the _Complete..._ books during the past week. I got all three for $37.30 US, including S&H.



WOW!    That is about $12.43 each.  I'm afraid to ask, but where did you find those prices??  That's much less than my cost.  I could sell the books less than retail if I could get them for that!



> That's a total savings of more than $50 US, and I didn't have to leave the comfort of my home, put up with Houston traffic, stand in line at the store, et cetera.
> 
> For me, that is money, time, and hassle well-saved.



You mention time, so I'm curious, how long does the shipping take?

(-Brad


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