# After my players tried to break it, we discovered that the new half-race rules are hilarious and terrible.



## The Glen (Sep 9, 2022)

I handed my players the new character rules and told them to make half-race characters and to try and break the system.  You can't actually break the system because the only real changes are purely cosmetic, but damned if they didn't make some of the strangest hybrids out there.  Fire breathing halflings.  Dwarves that can fly by just flapping their arms REALLY fast.  Giant hippo men that are naturally stealthy.  While the pairings were quite humorous and did give us more than a few laughs, we realized the half-race system is fairly shallow as is.  Pick rules for a race, and then just reskin it as another race.  Even if the abilities given and the reskin made no sense whatsoever.  Everybody pretty much agreed they wanted actual half-elves, not an elf wearing a human skin suit.  Same for half orcs.  Realized that WOTC really wants all the options, but again if everybody is special, nobody is.


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## Mind of tempest (Sep 9, 2022)

part of the problem is they do not want to have to make a separate race for every combination of people and they wish not to have everyone just make combinations with mixed abilities that are just broken so they are trying this.


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## Corinnguard (Sep 9, 2022)

It sounds to me that the designers for 1D&D should have done what Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition did with characters of mixed heritage. Allow the Player character to pick a particular heritage and then pick the heritage gift of another heritage. So if you wanted to play a half-elf, you could:

1) Pick the Human heritage and an Elven heritage gift

or 

2) Pick the Elven heritage and a human heritage gift.  

To get the original 5e Half-Elf, you just need to pick the second option.   The first option otoh will get you a human with the psychic gifts of an elf. Elves in LU: A5e possess psychic heritage gifts (minor precognition, one way telepathy, or enhanced perception). Hmm...now I have to wonder if the A5e Elves were modeled after the elves in LoTR.  The elves in that setting had something psychic about them.

Aragorn IMO would be a Half-Elf based off the first option.


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## Tutara (Sep 9, 2022)

I think you've inadvertantly shown the benefits of the system. Your mission was to make (in your mind) silly combinations. You succeeded!

I bet, though, for every combination you found humorous, someone trying in earnest could make a logical and narratively sound justification that makes sense. If you choose not to represent your character's heritage at all it obviously won't make sense, but that's a fluff choice, rather than a mechanical one. Hippos are actually terrifyingly stealthy, for example, and your other examples could absolutely work as well. If you were to attempt to justify abilities, rather than seeking not to, you would find it works just fine.


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## darjr (Sep 9, 2022)

Well you can do all kinds of crazy things now as is. 

But flapping arm flying dwarves is something I’ll not soon forget.

Thank you?


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## Mind of tempest (Sep 9, 2022)

Corinnguard said:


> It sounds to me that the designers for 1D&D should have done what Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition did with characters of mixed heritage. Allow the Player character to pick a particular heritage and then pick the heritage gift of another heritage. So if you wanted to play a half-elf, you could:
> 
> 1) Pick the Human heritage and an Elven heritage gift
> 
> ...



one flaw with that it will be used to min-maxing beyond the levels even the godhead intended.


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## CreamCloud0 (Sep 9, 2022)

Tutara said:


> I think you've inadvertantly shown the benefits of the system. Your mission was to make (in your mind) silly combinations. You succeeded!



I’d argue that their goal “break the system” could actually be better stated as ‘create something new you don’t get from a base species option’ which failed, like OP says, all that really is different is the cosmetic visuals, you’re still playing a dragonborn it’s just in a halfling suit, it’s still only able to do what a standard dragonborn can do.


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## UngainlyTitan (Sep 9, 2022)

The solution is really simple. Silo at least one trait for each race under a different label and allow that trait to be swapped with a similarly labelled trait(s) from another race.


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## darjr (Sep 9, 2022)

I do think there may be issues. I find that a persistent reskin often drifts into a player asking for abilities that the “skin” has and not the thing reskinned. 

For example a dragon born reskin of a dwarf player may at some point argue that because the dragon born has scales it’d convert some bonus in situations that mechanicly it shouldn’t, because scales are not skin. At that point you as DM can let it be which begins the creep or stop it which kinda sucks.


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## Parmandur (Sep 9, 2022)

Tutara said:


> I think you've inadvertantly shown the benefits of the system. Your mission was to make (in your mind) silly combinations. You succeeded!
> 
> I bet, though, for every combination you found humorous, someone trying in earnest could make a logical and narratively sound justification that makes sense. If you choose not to represent your character's heritage at all it obviously won't make sense, but that's a fluff choice, rather than a mechanical one. Hippos are actually terrifyingly stealthy, for example, and your other examples could absolutely work as well. If you were to attempt to justify abilities, rather than seeking not to, you would find it works just fine.



Yes, this really seems to show the system working as designed.


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## Corinnguard (Sep 9, 2022)

Mind of tempest said:


> one flaw with that it will be used to min-maxing beyond the levels even the godhead intended.



It's hard to say if A5e's way of dealing with mixed heritages could lead to min-maxing.  Plus heritage isn't the only thing being considered when designing the origins for your character. There's Culture, Background and Destiny too. 

I do believe, however, that some heritage/heritage gift combos are better than others.


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## Parmandur (Sep 9, 2022)

Mind of tempest said:


> one flaw with that it will be used to min-maxing beyond the levels even the godhead intended.



This hybridization system is fundamentally impossible to min/max, since it's entirely fluff.


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## Mind of tempest (Sep 9, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> The solution is really simple. Silo at least one trait for each race under a different label and allow that trait to be swapped with a similarly labelled trait(s) from another race.



does no one get how abusable that solution would be you would end up with nothing but min-maxed hybrids?


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## Mind of tempest (Sep 9, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> This hybridization system is fundamentally impossible to min/max, since it's entirely fluff.



I mean the proposed fix for glens point with mixing and matching abilities from different option,s not the new wotc system.


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## Parmandur (Sep 9, 2022)

Mind of tempest said:


> I mean the proposed fix for glens point with mixing and matching abilities from different option,s not the new wotc system.



Oops, my bad. I agree, which is why it is improbable.


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## Mind of tempest (Sep 9, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> Oops, my bad. I agree, which is why it is improbable.



I see no system without flaws that lets half races in or at least one that is not going to end up dumb or highly abusable or needing like a million combinations.


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## darjr (Sep 9, 2022)

Upon further reflection, it’s fine. I want my arm flapping dwarves!


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## darjr (Sep 9, 2022)

I think the way to fix it is to make it a background and give each race a feat that any other race can take as that background if they are of mixed origin. 

Leave the rules as they are now just add these feats if a mixed race player wants something more.


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## Malmuria (Sep 9, 2022)

The 1dnd rules treat half races as if they were wizard experiments or mutants, randomly getting "traits" from either parent. (and actually, this is mostly a consequence of dnd looking at 19th century race science and saying, "hmm, what if our fantasy world actually did operate that way?"  I suppose next they add a spell that allows you to determine blood quantum).

That being said, OP is a great idea generator for a science fantasy game


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## Yaarel (Sep 9, 2022)

darjr said:


> I think the way to fix it is to make it a background and give each race a feat that any other race can take as that background if they are of mixed origin.
> 
> Leave the rules as they are now just add these feats if a mixed race player wants something more.



So like an elf-human (with human stats) taking a background with the Elven Accuracy feat, and a human-elf (with elf stats) taking the Prodigy feat?


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## UngainlyTitan (Sep 9, 2022)

Mind of tempest said:


> does no one get how abusable that solution would be you would end up with nothing but min-maxed hybrids?



Really? 
I did not propose that there should be a free pick and mix from the traits of both ancestor lineages but that there be a trait(s) that are specifically siloed off that are roughly equivalent for all races.

For example a Half Elf (mostly human) from the playtest material
Racial Traits
Resourceful
Skillful
versatile
(from elf) Keen Senses

Or the opposite mostly elf
Darkvision
Elven Lineage
Fey Ancestry
Keen Senses
Trance 
(From Human) Skillful

But i would prefer if they actually built it properly with a actual sharable traits silo or take @darjr idea of a racial ancestry feat for just this purpose.


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## The Glen (Sep 9, 2022)

darjr said:


> Well you can do all kinds of crazy things now as is.
> 
> But flapping arm flying dwarves is something I’ll not soon forget.
> 
> Thank you?



My father was a dwarf and my mother was a hummingbird ardling.  I can clear this jump no problem.  _Arms start moving so fast they blur._


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## D1Tremere (Sep 9, 2022)

darjr said:


> I do think there may be issues. I find that a persistent reskin often drifts into a player asking for abilities that the “skin” has and not the thing reskinned.
> 
> For example a dragon born reskin of a dwarf player may at some point argue that because the dragon born has scales it’d convert some bonus in situations that mechanicly it shouldn’t, because scales are not skin. At that point you as DM can let it be which begins the creep or stop it which kinda sucks.



I think the way to avoid this is the same way to avoid the OPs stated discoveries, which is to not frame everything in such a mechanical way in the first place. 
We aren't talking about reskinning a dwarf, we are talking about the unique circumstances of nature and nurture in a magical universe that led to Frank, who's father was a Dwarf and mother was an Owlin. Description Options: Player decides Frank looks like a Dwarf but benefits from Owlin unique physiology. He has feathers on his arms that unfurl when he flies, but looks like skin otherwise. Perhaps his bones are lighter than normal as well. Or, perhaps the residual magic that allows Owlin to to fly despite the fact that earth based physics would require an incredible large wingspan for any creature of human size to fly, also endow Frank with the ability to fly despite not having the traditional feathers. Or, maybe Frank just made a sturdy leather pair of wings based on his mothers instructions that allow him the same flying as feathers? 
This is the Role Playing instead of Roll Playing argument reskinned.


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## darjr (Sep 9, 2022)

Yaarel said:


> So like an elf-human (with human stats) taking a background with the Elven Accuracy feat, and a human-elf (with elf stats) taking the Prodigy feat?



Yea. I think I was having flash backs of the early 4e multi class feats.


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## darjr (Sep 9, 2022)

The Glen said:


> My father was a dwarf and my mother was a hummingbird ardling.  I can clear this jump no problem.  _Arms start moving so fast they blur._



I want this so bad!


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## J.Quondam (Sep 9, 2022)

Flapping arms to fly really strains my suspension of disbelief. 
Now _propeller beards,_ on the other hand....


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## Corinnguard (Sep 9, 2022)

J.Quondam said:


> Flapping arms to fly really strains my suspension of disbelief.
> Now _propeller beards,_ on the other hand....



Now watch his head do a complete 360 as his head hair and beard spin a tremendous speed.


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## Warpiglet-7 (Sep 9, 2022)

This is why we need DMs.

The answer to you your flatulence/firebreath weapon after your dwarf gets drunk and lights it is “no.”

Or you rolled a ‘1’ and don’t want to know the outcome.

Yes the rules need to be good guardrails but we need empowered DMs not matter the rules set.


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## Corinnguard (Sep 9, 2022)

DM: "About your character...."   As always the DM will be the final arbiter on what kind of hybrids they are going to allow in their game.


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## darjr (Sep 9, 2022)

Warpiglet-7 said:


> This is why we need DMs.
> 
> The answer to you your flatulence/firebreath weapon after your dwarf gets drunk and lights it is “no.”
> 
> ...



Ah. Note to self leave the stinker long arm dwarf at home when warpiglet DMs.


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## Umbran (Sep 9, 2022)

So, you can pick up a tool, and to goofy things with it.  

Is that the fault of the tool for not preventing it, or is it your own fault for picking up the tool with goofy intent?


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## Corinnguard (Sep 9, 2022)

That depends on whether or not the tool has a mind of it's own.


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## Charlaquin (Sep 9, 2022)

In Monsters of the Multiverse, a lot of races had some extra text in their creature type line specifying that they count as a certain race. For example, duergar’s type line says “You are a Humanoid. You are also considered a dwarf for any prerequisite or effect that requires you to be a dwarf.” I could see that being a thing for half-races.


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## Yaarel (Sep 9, 2022)

Charlaquin said:


> In Monsters of the Multiverse, a lot of races had some extra text in their creature type line specifying that they count as a certain race. For example, duergar’s type line says “You are a Humanoid. You are also considered a dwarf for any prerequisite or effect that requires you to be a dwarf.” I could see that being a thing for half-races.



I like the concept.

Because the point of feats is customization, I dont want feats to be gated by race prereqs. Are there other meaningful situations where, for example, a duergar qualifies as a dwarf?


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## Corinnguard (Sep 9, 2022)

Yaarel said:


> I like the concept.
> 
> Because the point of feats is customization, I dont want feats to be gated by race prereqs. Are there other meaningful situations where, for example, a duergar qualifies as a dwarf?



In A5e, a Duergar would have the Dwarven heritage and the Deep Dwarf culture. So in terms of heritage, they're still very much a Dwarf. But they're culturally distinct from other Dwarves.


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## Charlaquin (Sep 9, 2022)

Yaarel said:


> I like the concept.
> 
> Because the point of feats is customization, I dont want feats to be gated by race prereqs. Are there other meaningful situations where, for example, a duergar qualifies as a dwarf?



I think feat prerequisites are the only place where it matters in 5e currently. There might be like an odd magic item that requires attunement by a dwarf or something, I guess. Eladrin counting as elves makes them immune to ghoul paralysis. But generally I don’t think there are many effects that care about race that precisely, yet.


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## CleverNickName (Sep 9, 2022)

The Glen said:


> Pick rules for a race, and then just reskin it as another race.



I'm not trying to crap on the thread, but isn't this what everyone has always done?  or is it just me?

The first "genasi" that I played, long before there was ever rules for such a thing, was a tiefling that had been reflavored to have an elemental parent instead of a fiendish one.  (I didn't want demonic overtones for that character.)  Years later, when Wizards of the Coast released the _actual _Genasi, I was like....meh, no thanks, I'll keep the reskinned tiefling.

More recently, one of my players wanted to play an all-new character race of their own design, based on a Magic: the Gathering card (essentially a blend of elf and fairy traits.)  So we picked the fairy race from "Wild Beyond the Witchlight," and reskinned it as an elf (medium size, humanoid, etc.)

Even back in BECM, I would reskin the Dwarves to be "gnomes," since there wasn't really much of an appreciable difference between the two...at least, not as far as the game mechanics were concerned.  And I remember making a "half-angel" in BECM (there was no such thing as an aasimar back then) by letting the player roll up an Elf, but pick their spells from the Cleric list.

Or maybe I've just been doing it wrong all these years decades.


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## Azzy (Sep 10, 2022)

I don't much like the rules for hybrid races, either, but the OP seems like a self-inflicted problem.


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## Corinnguard (Sep 10, 2022)

There should be a poll on how many players want to play a hybrid race (other than Half-Elf or Half-Orc) for 1D&D.


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## Blue (Sep 10, 2022)

Mind of tempest said:


> one flaw with that it will be used to min-maxing beyond the levels even the godhead intended.



Please, do tell how by picking the mechanics that exactly match what they could get otherwise but being able to change the fluff, you can mix-max "beyond the levels even the godhead intended".

I really want to know how the exact same mechanics are now ridiculously min-max when you can change the fluff.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 10, 2022)

The Glen said:


> Realized that WOTC really wants all the options, but again if everybody is special, nobody is.



That's not the motivation.

They don't want to be in the business of saying "X percentage of blood from ethnic group Y makes you big and bestial." That's a PR disaster waiting to happen, especially if they accomplish anything like getting a LotR or MCU level mindshare with the public. (The public currently knows D&D is a thing, but not the details.)

If you thought the Twitter blow up about how orcs were depicted in the Monster Manual and Volo's was bad, wait until it's cable news going after D&D for half-races.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 10, 2022)

Corinnguard said:


> There should be a poll on how many players want to play a hybrid race (other than Half-Elf or Half-Orc) for 1D&D.



Make one!

But if you mean WotC should, they won't, other than the UA feedback survey they already posted.


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## UngeheuerLich (Sep 10, 2022)

I think, if you dissociate abilities from cosmetics, it is on you, not on wotc.
You can subvert any system.

Not that I particularily like the removal of half-elves. I think some feat support for half humans would help though.


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## Li Shenron (Sep 10, 2022)

As much as I typically dislike half-races, I think the rule is working as intended. 

With this rule you are free to create any combination, just don't expect it to feel unique. For a half race to have something unique, it needs to be designed individually, and I don't think they're going to remove half-elf and half-orc just because there is also this new option. If they do that, that would a very bad move, removing a valid option to force everyone to use the other. But I wouldn't be completely surprised if it ends up that way, I already have the feeling that WotC is on a path of dropping the original 5e principle of "support as many playstyle as possible" in favour of telling everyone how they should play the game.

If really 5e had a flaw, it was the inability of WotC to realise that most of the rules can be optional, without the game ceasing to feel like D&D. Had they labelled more stuff in the books as optional, and present 5e as a toolbox, there would be a much more friendly atmosphere around the game. This goes also for this particular half-race rule: label it as optional, and every group can choose if they want it or not.


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## beancounter (Sep 10, 2022)

WoTC could make it's life a lot easier by ruling that only humans elves and orcs are genetically compatible. Or something along the lines that the gods made it that way.

This would also be a good opportunity for them to clarify that the different races are really different species...


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## MarkB (Sep 10, 2022)

One of the first things I thought of after seeing the half-race rule was a humanoid / warforged combo flavoured as a cyborg.


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## Sir Brennen (Sep 10, 2022)

Blue said:


> Please, do tell how by picking the mechanics that exactly match what they could get otherwise but being able to change the fluff, you can mix-max "beyond the levels even the godhead intended".
> 
> I really want to know how the exact same mechanics are now ridiculously min-max when you can change the fluff.



I believe the min-maxing comment was in response to the idea of actually allowing the swapping of specific traits from the parent races (even if it’s just losing trait X and gaining trait Y, where X and Y are the _only _traits allowed to be swapped). 

I personally like the idea, but could see, depending on what species traits are allowed to be swapped, that some players would look for the best synergistic combinations of races and their singular inheritable trait.

No one is saying the existing UA rules are min-max-able.


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## Sir Brennen (Sep 10, 2022)

Malmuria said:


> The 1dnd rules treat half races as if they were wizard experiments or mutants, randomly getting "traits" from either parent. (and actually, this is mostly a consequence of dnd looking at 19th century race science and saying, "hmm, what if our fantasy world actually did operate that way?"  I suppose next they add a spell that allows you to determine blood quantum).
> 
> That being said, OP is a great idea generator for a science fantasy game



I think it’s quite the opposite. If anything, it’s all the previous editions (or really, any RPG with distinct humanoid species capable of interbreeding) that treat half races as “wizard experiments or mutants”. You have either a set list of “creatures born of these two races always have these traits” or a mix-and-match set of characteristics.

The 1D&D rules simplify this, for a lot of reasons, including social awareness, maximizing options for character concepts (see OP) while at the same time minimizing the game mechanics complexities that would crop up presenting options for all the different race combinations.

And I honestly don’t know how you get away from the more outdated ideas of race you mention, given the premise that races in fantasy worlds are actually distinct biological lines of creatures, unlike real world humanity.

Probably the only way to completely do that would be to not have half-races in the game at all.


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## GuyBoy (Sep 10, 2022)

If your sole intent is to break something, you’ll probably succeed. RPG systems are no different in this regard. 
I’m not sure this indicates any problem with the system


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## Warpiglet-7 (Sep 10, 2022)

GuyBoy said:


> If your sole intent is to break something, you’ll probably succeed. RPG systems are no different in this regard.
> I’m not sure this indicates any problem with the system



It’s a problem often with the group unless you like that stuff.

In the old days someone could take a bunch of prestige classes.  They could make a war slayer, baker, assclown comedy priest.

They should not do that if it messes with the groups fun.  And the DM should say you have never been to clown school so no.  I like playing raw/rai where possible but assume responsibility to not do goofy stuff.  As DM, I am not afraid to say no if something will change other players’ experience to a negative.


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## Baron Opal II (Sep 10, 2022)

Yaarel said:


> I like the concept.
> 
> Because the point of feats is customization, I dont want feats to be gated by race prereqs. Are there other meaningful situations where, for example, a duergar qualifies as a dwarf?



In the past there were magic items that had additional abilities if you were of a given race, usually elvish or dwarven.


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## Azzy (Sep 10, 2022)

Warpiglet-7 said:


> In the old days someone could take a bunch of prestige classes.



Old days? Prestige classes? Pfft!


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## Warpiglet-7 (Sep 10, 2022)

Azzy said:


> Old days? Prestige classes? Pfft!



Hahaha. Yeah I have played since the 80s!  I was preaching to the crowd not choir!


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## NaturalZero (Sep 10, 2022)

The first character I ever played was in 2e and was reflavored. It's strange finally discovering in 2022 that the way the game has always worked is "horrible."


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## Bill Zebub (Sep 10, 2022)

The Glen said:


> I handed my players the new character rules and told them to make half-race characters and to try and break the system.  You can't actually break the system because the only real changes are purely cosmetic, but damned if they didn't make some of the strangest hybrids out there.  Fire breathing halflings.  Dwarves that can fly by just flapping their arms REALLY fast.  Giant hippo men that are naturally stealthy.  While the pairings were quite humorous and did give us more than a few laughs, we realized the half-race system is fairly shallow as is.  Pick rules for a race, and then just reskin it as another race.  Even if the abilities given and the reskin made no sense whatsoever.  Everybody pretty much agreed they wanted actual half-elves, not an elf wearing a human skin suit.  Same for half orcs.  Realized that WOTC really wants all the options, but again if everybody is special, nobody is.




I don't see what the problem is here. Your 'hilarious and terrible' might be exactly what somebody else wants to play. I find half the official races terrible and not even very funny.  Somebody else might think that anthropomorphic turtles or dark elves with hand crossbows to be terrible.

Nobody is forcing you to use any of these combinations, and it doesn't seem like you are claiming that there are OP combinations, so...what's the issue?

If somebody in your group thinks a Dwarf who flies by flapping his arms is awesome, and you think it's terrible, then that's a group dynamic problem, not a rules problem.


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## The Glen (Sep 10, 2022)

Warpiglet-7 said:


> Hahaha. Yeah I have played since the 80s!  I was preaching to the crowd not choir!



1st edition Bard.  The OG Prestige class.


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## Warpiglet-7 (Sep 10, 2022)

The Glen said:


> 1st edition Bard.  The OG Prestige class.



I had a half elf fighter and kept reading the bard stuff…back then the dm said yeah, I guess if you survive!  

I salivated at the extra d6s!  It never happened but hey, it was a dream!


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 10, 2022)

Baron Opal II said:


> In the past there were magic items that had additional abilities if you were of a given race, usually elvish or dwarven.



As a DM, I would definitely rule that someone who built a mixed race character would qualify to use these items, assuming they had a parent of the correct sort, just like I would under 5E.

A DM who gets picky about this is likely going to be rare.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 10, 2022)

The Glen said:


> 1st edition Bard.  The OG Prestige class.



Followed by the Thief-Acrobat.


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## Mallus (Sep 10, 2022)

Deliberately making D&D absurd is… not difficult. Regardless of edition.


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## Warpiglet-7 (Sep 10, 2022)

Mallus said:


> Deliberately making D&D absurd is… not difficult. Regardless of edition.



We do it by accident quite a bit.  We have a gnome wizard in the party.  Unintentional stuff happens all the time.  But we all laugh and then get serious before something outrageous happens again.


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## Bill Zebub (Sep 10, 2022)

And of course DMs have always had license to make everything as absurd as they like. I see nothing wrong with giving a tiny bit of that authorial power to players.


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## Chaosmancer (Sep 10, 2022)

To offer a counter-example, I just sat down with some kids to use these new rules to make new characters. The actual character creation was a disaster (not due to rules, but due to specific individuals who showed up and did not mesh well) but just about everyone made mixed race individuals. Here is what I remember without looking at their sheets. 

Tiefling/Dhampir -> Wanting to play a very edgy character, who feeds on emotions and has devilish ties. Works perfectly. 

Water Genasi/Aasimar -> Wanted to be the child of a water deity. Works perfectly. 

Tabaxi/Kobold -> Wanted to be small, fuzzy, and connected to a dragon (some homebrew lore on how Dragonborn and Kobolds work). I could probably literally find artwork of small, fuzzy dragons in a 10 second search. Works perfectly. 

Tiefling/Dragonborn -> Wanted to combine fire and ice characteristics, and have a connection to dragons as well. Works perfectly. 


And honestly, even the OP's stuff, that is intentionally choosing to not present any features of one of their parents. The halfing that breathes fire may be "silly" but they are immediately less so if they looked like this 






Which seems to be art of... a halfling half-dragon. Which is what someone who makes a halfling/Dragonborn character likely WANTS. 

Sure, you can make a dwarf who flies by flapping their arms. But that is entirely on you for making the character to be silly. A dwarf with wings is likely what an actually player taking this seriously would do. Which is such a common idea there are minis for it.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 10, 2022)

Those all sound really compelling, @Chaosmancer.

And going back to the cyborg idea earlier, a gnome/autognome cyborg not only has precedent (mechagnomes in World of Warcraft), but it's an incredibly fun idea.


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## Tonguez (Sep 10, 2022)

Chaosmancer said:


> Tiefling/Dhampir -> Wanting to play a very edgy character, who feeds on emotions and has devilish ties. Works perfectly..



just tell me it didnt sparkle - doubling down on the demonic vampire gothic is failure in my heart (if not my mind)


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## Bill Zebub (Sep 10, 2022)

Chaosmancer said:


> To offer a counter-example, I just sat down with some kids to use these new rules to make new characters. The actual character creation was a disaster (not due to rules, but due to specific individuals who showed up and did not mesh well) but just about everyone made mixed race individuals. Here is what I remember without looking at their sheets.
> 
> Tiefling/Dhampir -> Wanting to play a very edgy character, who feeds on emotions and has devilish ties. Works perfectly.
> 
> ...




Great post.


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## Micah Sweet (Sep 11, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> Yes, this really seems to show the system working as designed.



If the design is to have half-heritage be mechanically meaningless, it's not a design I like.  My vote is still for Level Up.


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## darjr (Sep 11, 2022)

found this!


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## Parmandur (Sep 11, 2022)

Micah Sweet said:


> If the design is to have half-heritage be mechanically meaningless, it's not a design I like.  My vote is still for Level Up.



Yes, it is, and that's OK.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 11, 2022)

Micah Sweet said:


> If the design is to have half-heritage be mechanically meaningless, it's not a design I like.  My vote is still for Level Up.



Great news: You've already got that book.


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## Chaosmancer (Sep 11, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> just tell me it didnt sparkle - doubling down on the demonic vampire gothic is failure in my heart (if not my mind)




Game hasn't started yet, but he is playing a bard.


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## NaturalZero (Sep 11, 2022)

Chaosmancer said:


> To offer a counter-example, I just sat down with some kids to use these new rules to make new characters. The actual character creation was a disaster (not due to rules, but due to specific individuals who showed up and did not mesh well) but just about everyone made mixed race individuals. Here is what I remember without looking at their sheets.



This post represents, IMO, the purest essence of table top RPGs. This all is a feature (if not the soul) of TTRPGs.


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## Yaarel (Sep 11, 2022)

Baron Opal II said:


> In the past there were magic items that had additional abilities if you were of a given race, usually elvish or dwarven.



I think this can work as a culture. For example, the prereq is to speak a specific language, in order to attune to a specific magic item.


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## Yaarel (Sep 11, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> just tell me it didnt sparkle - doubling down on the demonic vampire gothic is failure in my heart (if not my mind)



Heh, somehow it didnt occur to me until now. The sparkling vampire is supposed to be a variant of the bursting-into-flames-in-sunlight vampire.


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## Knight_Marshal (Sep 20, 2022)

The problem is that it isn't a system. It's just them telling us we can do what we were already doing to keep them from having to make actual rules.


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## Remathilis (Sep 20, 2022)

The half-race sidebar is a punt since any actual racial mixing rules would eat up more space in the PHB than they want to use on it. Either they will do a more robust racial mixing ruleset in a supplement or leave it to 3pp or DMs to fill in the deficit. (Like what they did with psionics). 

Until then, it's permission to play half-elves, half-orcs, and half-drow tieflings, but don't expect a rules advantage for such mixtures.


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## Undrave (Sep 20, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> The solution is really simple. Silo at least one trait for each race under a different label and allow that trait to be swapped with a similarly labelled trait(s) from another race.



My solution would be to have 'Major Traits' and 'Minor Traits' and just let you swap Minor Traits with your second race pick.


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## UngeheuerLich (Sep 20, 2022)

Still in favour of 1st level heritage feats, which are only for human and only at level 1. 2 Examples, half elf and half orc could be in the phb.


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## Corinnguard (Sep 20, 2022)

UngeheuerLich said:


> Still in favour of 1st level heritage feats, which are only for human and only at level 1. 2 Examples, half elf and half orc could be in the phb.



The heritage gifts in Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition are basically 1st-level feats.


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## Parmandur (Sep 21, 2022)

Remathilis said:


> The half-race sidebar is a punt since any actual racial mixing rules would eat up more space in the PHB than they want to use on it. Either they will do a more robust racial mixing ruleset in a supplement or leave it to 3pp or DMs to fill in the deficit. (Like what they did with psionics).
> 
> Until then, it's permission to play half-elves, half-orcs, and half-drow tieflings, but don't expect a rules advantage for such mixtures.



Probably just won't t touch it with a ten foot pole.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 21, 2022)

Even before the UA came out, An Elf and an Orc Had a Little Baby and An Elf and An Orc Had a Little Baby 2 were among the most popular titles on DMs Guild. I suspect WotC figures the fanpro community and third party publishers have this covered.


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## Remathilis (Sep 21, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> Probably just won't t touch it with a ten foot pole.





Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Even before the UA came out, An Elf and an Orc Had a Little Baby and An Elf and An Orc Had a Little Baby 2 were among the most popular titles on DMs Guild. I suspect WotC figures the fanpro community and third party publishers have this covered.



This is my honest belief. They will let some 3pp touch that rail.


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## Clint_L (Sep 23, 2022)

I dunno...I read the thread title but then the first post just gave examples that seemed kind of awesome and easy to interpret for a story.


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## Ulorian - Agent of Chaos (Sep 26, 2022)

Warpiglet-7 said:


> This is why we need DMs.
> 
> The answer to you your flatulence/firebreath weapon after your dwarf gets drunk and lights it is “no.”
> 
> ...



Okay. So someone thinks something is fun. They are playing a game to have fun. They try to do the thing that they think is fun. For whatever reason, you don't agree that it's fun and that their fun thing is going to ruin your experience somehow. So instead of discussing it with this other person and trying to reach a compromise, you shut it down and upset this other person because you happen to be the GM and you think what you want is more important than what someone else wants. This makes your life better how exactly?


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## Cadence (Sep 26, 2022)

Warpiglet-7 said:


> The answer to you your flatulence/firebreath weapon after your dwarf gets drunk and lights it is “no.”






Ulorian - Agent of Chaos said:


> Okay. So someone thinks something is fun. They are playing a game to have fun. They try to do the thing that they think is fun. For whatever reason, you don't agree that it's fun and that their fun thing is going to ruin your experience somehow. So instead of discussing it with this other person and trying to reach a compromise, you shut it down and upset this other person because you happen to be the GM and you think what you want is more important than what someone else wants. This makes your life better how exactly?




I was assuming in Warpiglet's game that lighting one's farts on fire as an attack doesn't fit the feel of the game as laid out in session 0 or as expressed in any of the play up to that point - because I would have assumed Warpiglet would have tried to discuss it with them or reach a compromise if it seemed like something vaguely plausible in the game. 

If it's been a "serious" S&S game or high fantasy game or whatnot, I'm not exactly sure what the compromise is for farting out fire or (as in another thread talking about a book by a famous D&D creator) having the teenage girl shooting out breast energy blasts.


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## Bill Zebub (Sep 26, 2022)

Cadence said:


> I was assuming in Warpiglet's game that lighting one's farts on fire as an attack doesn't fit the feel of the game as laid out in session 0 or as expressed in any of the play up to that point - because I would have assumed Warpiglet would have tried to discuss it with them or reach a compromise if it seemed like something vaguely plausible in the game.




That may all be true, but that's not how the post in question was expressed.


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## Cadence (Sep 26, 2022)

Bill Zebub said:


> That may all be true, but that's not how the post in question was expressed.




I was just having trouble picturing anyone I've ever played any (non-Toon) RPG with anywhere seriously  wanting an arm-flapping flight ability or the flame-thrower-fart ability.

And so maybe that's why I didn't just  jump to assuming warpiglet  was trying to be a domineering DM who wouldn't have looked quizzically at the character and asked "really" and then discussed it with them if they looked confused or like they seriously thought it fit the game.  That feels like the kind of benefit of the doubt I'd extend to most folks on here until they proved otherwise.


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## Ulorian - Agent of Chaos (Sep 26, 2022)

Cadence said:


> I was just having trouble picturing anyone I've ever played any (non-Toon) RPG with anywhere seriously  wanting an arm-flapping flight ability or the flame-thrower-fart ability.
> 
> And so maybe that's why I didn't just  jump to assuming warpiglet  was trying to be a domineering DM who wouldn't have looked quizzically at the character and asked "really" and then discussed it with them if they looked confused or like they seriously thought it fit the game.  That feels like the kind of benefit of the doubt I'd extend to most folks on here until they proved otherwise.



I understand that you're trying to be empathetic and I appreciate people like you in the world. But re-read the post in question; it feels like in this case you are trying to conjure empathy where it isn't deserved, in the name of avoiding a confrontation. My view is that sometimes you have to face things instead of going around them. If I'm off base, I'd like this warpiglet person to explain themselves. If they don't, that's fine too... this isn't an issue that anyone's going to lose sleep over.


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## Cadence (Sep 26, 2022)

Ulorian - Agent of Chaos said:


> ... this isn't an issue that anyone's going to lose sleep over.



Well, to be literal, I'm currently on here to avoid doing a few chores I don't want to do before I can go to bed, so...


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## Ulorian - Agent of Chaos (Sep 26, 2022)

Cadence said:


> Well, to be literal, I'm currently on here to avoid doing a few chores I don't want to do before I can go to bed, so...



I came back from Las Vegas last night and 'enjoyed' several nights of 2 or 3 hours of sleep (Vegas is a fun place!). I'm here because of insomnia...


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## Ulorian - Agent of Chaos (Sep 26, 2022)

Cadence said:


> Well, to be literal, I'm currently on here to avoid doing a few chores I don't want to do before I can go to bed, so...



Stop slacking off and get back to mopping that kitchen floor!


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 26, 2022)

Ulorian - Agent of Chaos said:


> This makes your life better how exactly?



*Mod Note:*

When you got to this point, you started making it personal.  That almost never leads to productive discussion.  Try to avoid that going forward, please.


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## Warpiglet-7 (Sep 26, 2022)

Cadence said:


> I was just having trouble picturing anyone I've ever played any (non-Toon) RPG with anywhere seriously  wanting an arm-flapping flight ability or the flame-thrower-fart ability.
> 
> And so maybe that's why I didn't just  jump to assuming warpiglet  was trying to be a domineering DM who wouldn't have looked quizzically at the character and asked "really" and then discussed it with them if they looked confused or like they seriously thought it fit the game.  That feels like the kind of benefit of the doubt I'd extend to most folks on here until they proved otherwise.



Yep.

The table’s and DM’s fun matter too.  If people are into it, whatever.  If the group is trying to have a serious game….

You get it.  Others don’t have to.  

The point is that the rules don’t rule the table nor do they have to have every edge case that is problematic accounted for.  The DM matters.


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## TaranTheWanderer (Sep 26, 2022)

The Glen said:


> My father was a dwarf and my mother was a hummingbird ardling.  I can clear this jump no problem.  _Arms start moving so fast they blur._



Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberry...


> flatulence/firebreath weapon after your dwarf gets drunk and lights it



I fart in your general direction....

I'm pretty sure Monty Python had designed half-races ages ago.


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## Warpiglet-7 (Sep 26, 2022)

Ulorian - Agent of Chaos said:


> I understand that you're trying to be empathetic and I appreciate people like you in the world. But re-read the post in question; it feels like in this case you are trying to conjure empathy where it isn't deserved, in the name of avoiding a confrontation. My view is that sometimes you have to face things instead of going around them. If I'm off base, I'd like this warpiglet person to explain themselves. If they don't, that's fine too... this isn't an issue that anyone's going to lose sleep over.



You’re off base.  If that is the tenor of the game and it’s participants, fine.

The point I was attempting to make by inserting absurd examples was that the rules don’t have to be _that tight _and spell every fluff related thing out.  The DM can clarify expectations.

Clearly I was not expecting there to be a lot of fart weapon arm flapping flight ability at the average table.  If there are groups that have fun with this, why would I care?

The point is that the DM can set some limits to fit the group.  I did not enumerate the actual boundaries that should exist.

If you and the ‘Bub are saying the DM must allow anything the player finds fun I will say “uh, do what you enjoy.”  

If that is an uncharitable interpretation,  you did not explain that there are exceptions: (see how that works)


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## Corinnguard (Sep 26, 2022)

Corinnguard said:


> It sounds to me that the designers for 1D&D should have done what Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition did with characters of mixed heritage. Allow the Player character to pick a particular heritage and then pick the heritage gift of another heritage. So if you wanted to play a half-elf, you could:
> 
> 1) Pick the Human heritage and an Elven heritage gift
> 
> ...



It gets better. There are four suggested Elven cultures in A5e- Eladrin, High Elf, Shadow Elf (the Drow) and Wood Elf. So if you went with the second option and then picked one of these four elven cultures, you could have a Half-Eladrin Elf, a Half-High Elf, a Half-Drow or a Half-Wood Elf character. 

 Half-Eladrin Elf characters are proficient in longswords and rapiers, have the Fey and the Humanoid type, a spell-like ability, proficiency in one skill (Arcana, Culture, Deception, History, Insight, Persuasion, Survival) and the ability to teleport 30 feet. They would also be able to speak, read, write and sign in Common, Elvish and Sylvan. 

 Half-High Elf characters can use their INT when making a Deception, Insight, Intimidation or Persuasion check, they are proficient in Culture and in one skill of their choice, one cantrip of their choice while using their highest mental stat. They can speak, read, write and sign in Common, Elvish and one language of their choice. 

Half-Drow characters have Darkvision 120 feet, proficiency in rapiers and hand crossbows, and three cantrips- _Dancing Lights_ or _Minor Illusion_ at 1st level, _Faerie Fire_ at 3rd level, and _Darkness_ at 5th level while using their highest mental stat. They can speak, read, write and sign in Common, Elvish and Undercommon. 

Half-Wild Elf characters can move 35 feet instead of 30 feet, have the _Animal Friendship_ spell while using their highest mental stat, proficiency in Animal Handling and Vehicles or Nature and Herbalism kits, a Climb speed of 35 feet, and a proficiency in longswords and shortbows. They can speak, read, write and sign in Common and Elvish.


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## Ulorian - Agent of Chaos (Sep 26, 2022)

Warpiglet-7 said:


> You’re off base.  If that is the tenor of the game and it’s participants, fine.
> 
> The point I was attempting to make by inserting absurd examples was that the rules don’t have to be _that tight _and spell every fluff related thing out.  The DM can clarify expectations.
> 
> ...



Thanks for replying! In my initial reply to you I said:

"So instead of discussing it with this other person and trying to reach a compromise..."

That's the key to me. Your initial post had the tone of "I don't like this, so I'm shutting it down, regardless of what you think is fun." There was no opportunity given by you to at least entertain the other side of the argument. (see how that works)

I agree with you that some of those combinations are goofy (to me... and to you apparently). That doesn't mean I'm going to stomp on anyone else bringing something like that forward. We'll talk about it... if it's truly that meaningful to them to have that combo, I'm not going to stand in the way of someone else having their fun, because how does that hurt me really? If it's something brought forward that REALLY gets in the way of the rest of the group's fun... well, a person's freedom ends where another's begins.


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## Warpiglet-7 (Sep 26, 2022)

Ulorian - Agent of Chaos said:


> Thanks for replying! In my initial reply to you I said:
> 
> "So instead of discussing it with this other person and trying to reach a compromise..."
> 
> ...



I am fortunate in that my friends are my gaming group.  Played in grade school and now still that we are family men with bills.

We rotate DMs here and there.  I cannot think of a disallowed race/class combo to date.  Maybe good thing maybe not.  But we have similar play styles after all these years.  We have added a few newer players and have had some success but then again knew them ahead of time.

Of course you would see what they are bringing to the table as DM.  It has not come up—people wanting to do things that are far out of the group norms for flavor/cohesion.

But if they did, it’s on the DM and not the rules.  

It would be along the lines of “for real?  Fart fire?”  And then let the negotiations begin.


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## CreamCloud0 (Sep 26, 2022)

Warpiglet-7 said:


> The answer to you your flatulence/firebreath weapon after your dwarf gets drunk and lights it is “no.”



‘No flatulence-flamethrowers, but if you’re drunk then most likely you’ve got alcohol at hand, you spray out a mouthful of booze and light that on fire instead’

Mechanically identical results just in a significantly more mature fashion.


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