# Forked from WotC Layoffs: Industry Size



## Khur (Dec 5, 2009)

Forked from the thread about my cohorts and me losing our jobs.



Jack99 said:


> Considering the state of the 3pp business today, what companies other than WotC are likely to hire fulltime? Goodman Games perhaps?



None, really, if you're talking about third-party people who make D&D-related or d20 derivative RPG materials--including 3e stuff and d20-era spinoffs. It seems to me, without any snark intended, that many people here and on other boards have a, shall we say, highly optimistic view of the size of tabletop RPG companies and who actually competes with who. Most are tiny, and darn few have the wherewithal to do more than hire freelancers on a per-job basis. (That's better than nothing, of course.) Even those that seem to have a decent "fulltime" staff sometimes have that staff spread across the country in what amounts to a collective of regularly employed freelancers. (Nothing wrong with that--it's cool people can work this way nowadays. And some of my favorite people have done so--such as Rob Schwalb with Green Ronin.)

And this leads me to dispel another myth I often wanted to chime in about. Despite popular speculation, nobody really "competes" with Wizards and D&D in the tabletop RPG pool, as long as we define "competes" as "taking meaningful market share from Wizards." I mean _nobody._ Fortunately, one doesn't have to compete on that level to be successful. That's a good thing in my opinion, allowing games such as _Pathfinder_ and _Mutants & Masterminds/True 20_ to do well (I hope) financially for creative folks at small companies.

Although I know some fans see it as a battle, we designers are fairly amicable and part of a small group, definitely with strong opinions. Even if I don't know another designer, I probably know someone who knows him or her. We've probably even had a drink with such folks at GenCon or whatnot. I wrote a little d20 book for Silverthorn Games, and got to meet Goodman at D&D Experience last year. I've had the privileged of meeting Chris Pramas and company through my association with Rob Schwalb, for example. I once did a little work with Sean K. Reynolds before he went to Paizo, and I shake his hand every time I see him. I've never managed to sit down with Jason Bulmahn for a beer, but I meant to and would in a heartbeat. I hope these people do well so they can keep doing what they love.

That doesn't mean they do or need to actually compete with Wizards. And my statement doesn't mean I think nobody can or will compete on that level. It just isn't really happening now. The real competition for Wizards and everyone else is other forms of entertainment, especially video games.


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## Klaus (Dec 5, 2009)

Khur said:


> Forked from the thread about my cohorts and me losing our jobs.
> 
> None, really, if you're talking about third-party people who make D&D-related or d20 derivative RPG materials--including 3e stuff and d20-era spinoffs. It seems to me, without any snark intended, that many people here and on other boards have a, shall we say, highly optimistic view of the size of tabletop RPG companies and who actually competes with who. Most are tiny, and darn few have the wherewithal to do more than hire freelancers on a per-job basis. (That's better than nothing, of course.) Even those that seem to have a decent "fulltime" staff sometimes have that staff spread across the country in what amounts to a collective of regularly employed freelancers. (Nothing wrong with that--it's cool people can work this way nowadays. And some of my favorite people have done so--such as Rob Schwalb with Green Ronin.)
> 
> ...



Chris, just wanted to chime in and say I regret that we didn't manage to work together. Hopefully we will in the future!


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## drothgery (Dec 5, 2009)

Khur said:


> Forked from the thread about my cohorts and me losing our jobs.
> 
> None, really, if you're talking about third-party people who make D&D-related or d20 derivative RPG materials--including 3e stuff and d20-era spinoffs. It seems to me, without any snark intended, that many people here and on other boards have a, shall we say, highly optimistic view of the size of tabletop RPG companies and who actually competes with who.




Heck, as far as I know, WotC (as opposed WotC as part of Hasbro) was pretty much on the bubble between a small and mid-sized company by standard definitions. And a lot of WotC is M:TG and other non-RPG business.


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## Rechan (Dec 5, 2009)

Hell, look at Noonan - he's not even in the tabletop biz. He's working for an MMO! 

Which does show there's options out there beyond polyhedron rolling companies. 



> Although I know some fans see it as a battle, we designers are fairly amicable and part of a small group, definitely with strong opinions. Even if I don't know another designer, I probably know someone who knows him or her. We've probably even had a drink with such folks at GenCon or whatnot. I wrote a little d20 book for Silverthorn Games, and got to meet Goodman at D&D Experience last year. I've had the privileged of meeting Chris Pramas and company through my association with Rob Schwalb, for example. I once did a little work with Sean K. Reynolds before he went to Paizo, and I shake his hand every time I see him. I've never managed to sit down with Jason Bulmahn for a beer, but I meant to and would in a heartbeat. I hope these people do well so they can keep doing what they love.



Heh. I got a similar take from Rodney Thompson - we had lunch earlier this year, and he told me that the week previous, he and some other WotC folks went over to someone from Paizo's house to play boardgames all day, and that there was a backyard barbeque where designers from both companies hung out. The message was: the Seattle gaming industry is small, and everyone are friends.


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## Mistwell (Dec 5, 2009)

Thanks for commenting Chris.

I don't suppose you could tell us how well 4e is doing, relative to how well 3.5 and 3.0 did?


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## Derren (Dec 5, 2009)

Mistwell said:


> I don't suppose you could tell us how well 4e is doing, relative to how well 3.5 and 3.0 did?




Better not. That can turn ugly rather fast.


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## Pour (Dec 5, 2009)

Khur said:


> The real competition for Wizards and everyone else is other forms of entertainment, especially video games.




And that to me is the biggest damn shame ever. The entire entertainment industry could in fact be made to bolster the D&D brand and RPGs as a whole if it were made to.

Just look at how far the comic book industry has come since the near-collapse in the nineties, which actually followed a very big boom and numerous third-party companies opening shop and then folding within the span of a few years (Malibu, Valiant, etc.). The parallels to the RPG industry are actually rather astounding as these companies were headed by ex-Marvel and DC people, including the surviving Image Comics which was born out of a unification of creators tired of corporate policy and lack of rights/respect.

In those days, comics really were facing extinction. They had to evolve beyond print. That required an assessment of what they had to offer, and the answer was very simple, ideas. Marvel is even called the House of Ideas. Ideas and history. Both Marvel and DC could offer intellectual properties that would go on to become blockbuster movies, Saturday morning cartoons, DVD/BluRay releases on 6 month schedules, various apparel ranging from infants to adults, console video games, action figures, games and toys, theme parks, electronic comics and audio books, among others. And all of that stabilized and strengthened them as publishers, allowing for the healthy and incredible comic industry that we have today.

Why in the hell isn't Hasbro utilizing this proven, successful strategy with D&D? I mean they've managed to net millions upon millions with other properties like Transformers and G.I.JOE. They have the means to do so, and it's something that would ultimately generate growth within WotC, more products for all of us, and in the long run a healthier RPG market and more game/hobby stores. Call that last part a jump in logic, but any sort of exposure to D&D be it a movie, cartoon, comic or otherwise draws attention to the original game. Those are potential players who may find a liking in the hobby as a whole. 

I don't believe those abysmal movies from a few years back to be an inescapable curse, nor the terrible Dragonlance animated movie. Crap, yes, but that happens in entertainment and you move on. Batman and Robin was a horrendous flick, but does that stop you from enjoying The Dark Knight? 

I also don't believe in the nerdy basement stigma over D&D and hobby games, either. I've never suffered any sort of persecution for my hobby choice and I've actually gotten plenty of people to try it out, including high school kids, college kids and working adults. This is the age where World of Warcraft is cool and acceptable as a pass time. Remember that there was a stigma over video games, and now the video game industry eclipses both the music and movie industries combined in revenue (or something close to it). There was a stigma with comics, but now they're 'cool' and mainstreamed. Stigma is just BS in my mind, partially fed by the people who think they are victimized by it. It's able to be overcome, if it exists at all.

Now I already see some moves being made to reconcile the RPG industry with other entertainment, and in fact utilize it for growth. Green Ronin and their partnership with Bioware to create Dragon Age the RPG to coincide with the video game is a great example. Those sort of moves are what the industry needs now, especially from D&D/Hasbro. They could not only halt the shrink, even despite this economy, they could grow the whole market exponentially. 

That's it. I'm applying to Hasbro! I'll fix this guys!


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## PaizoCEO (Dec 5, 2009)

*The Size of Paizo*

Hey y'all:

While Chris is spot on that nobody is really the size of Wizards in both market share and number of employees, I do want to point out that Paizo has 26 full-time employees (and we are hiring still) who work in our 7,000 square foot office with a 16,000 square -foot warehouse.  They get very competitive salaries and Paizo pays all of their medical and dental insurance as well as that of their spouses/domestic partners and their children.  I just don't want people to think that Paizo is some sort of fly-by-night company working out of somebody's garage.  We have a full-time accountant, two customer service reps, two warehouse guys, and a heck of a lot of full-time designers.  WotC may be the 800 lb. gorilla in this industry, but Paizo is at least a 400 lb. gorilla.  

Btw, I was the first employee at WotC back in 1991, so I know a bit about growing companies.  At one point, when we had the retail stores, WotC employed almost 2,000 people.  

There are a lot of companies being run as people's hobbies in this industry.  Heck, that is how both White Wolf and Wizards of the Coast got started, but Paizo is the full-time job of 26 very talented people, who don't have time for hobbies!  

-Lisa Stevens
CEO
Paizo


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## catsclaw227 (Dec 5, 2009)

Thanks for the info Chris.

EDIT:  And Lisa! I had guessed that Paizo was a nice sized group.  Especially with having their own warehouse.  BTW -- who gets to double as HR? 

It would be great to hang out among that group in Seattle.  Companies may be hard-hearted, but the people there certainly aren't.  I imagine that they're all just gamers that wish that everyone could wash off their bias and roll some dice together.


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## PaizoCEO (Dec 5, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> And Lisa! I had guessed that Paizo was a nice sized group.  Especially with having their own warehouse.  BTW -- who gets to double as HR?




That would be me.    But in reality, we split lots of the HR duties up amongst the managers, but when it comes time to edit the employee handbook or sit in on all of the reviews, that would be me putting in the time.  I'd love to have a full-time HR person, but that really isn't practical unless you have a much larger company, say 100+

-Lisa


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## Dragonblade (Dec 5, 2009)

I wouldn't mind seeing Paizo suck up some of that 4e know how that WotC released and starting up a separate 4e based development house. Maybe on a freelance basis to keep costs small.

I like what Paizo is doing as a company, I just have grown to loathe playing or DMing for the 3e ruleset. WotC does a fine job with rules and feats and such, but if I could get Paizo's love and attention to detail on a 4e adventure path or campaign setting, I'd snap it up in a heartbeat....


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## BryonD (Dec 5, 2009)

Dragonblade said:


> I wouldn't mind seeing Paizo suck up some of that 4e know how that WotC released and starting up a separate 4e based development house. Maybe on a freelance basis to keep costs small.
> 
> I like what Paizo is doing as a company, I just have grown to loathe playing or DMing for the 3e ruleset. WotC does a fine job with rules and feats and such, but if I could get Paizo's love and attention to detail on a 4e adventure path or campaign setting, I'd snap it up in a heartbeat....



You get WotC.  We get Paizo.


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## GMforPowergamers (Dec 5, 2009)

PaizoCEO said:


> Chris is spot on that nobody is really the size of Wizards in both market share and number of employees, I do want to point out that Paizo has 26 full-time employees (and we are hiring still) who work in our 7,000 square foot office with a 16,000 square -foot warehouse.  They get very competitive salaries and Paizo pays all of their medical and dental insurance as well as that of their spouses/domestic partners and their children.  I just don't want people to think that Paizo is some sort of fly-by-night company working out of somebody's garage.  We have a full-time accountant, two customer service reps, two warehouse guys, and a heck of a lot of full-time designers.  WotC may be the 800 lb. gorilla in this industry, but Paizo is at least a 400 lb. gorilla.




I do call center work, and buisness managment normaly (before my carerer went to texas) but right now I am at the census, and I think these numbers really tell the tale atleast to me BETTER then chris did. WotC as the 800lbs gorilla had 2,000 employees... you guys at piazo as a 'name' company (no offence I bet WW, and Gurps are bigger...but you kick Rifts butt, and are about the same as the other 'big' players) has 26 full timers. 

I normaly think small basment start ups as haveing 100-1,000 or so employees... the fact that wotc and you guys are so small really speaks volumes... 

how many poeple are employeed in this feaild total? 5,000 maybe... most likly less...

Heck In collage I was a manager of a local pizza hut...I had 24 employees (about 15 full timers and about 9 parttimers) under me...so counting me we had a pizza shop with one less person then your whole company... 

I just assumed that piazo had atleast 100 full timers... but I guess it makes sense...


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## fireinthedust (Dec 5, 2009)

PaizoCEO said:


> Hey y'all:
> 
> While Chris is spot on that nobody is really the size of Wizards in both market share and number of employees, I do want to point out that Paizo has 26 full-time employees (and we are hiring still) who work in our 7,000 square foot office with a 16,000 square -foot warehouse.
> 
> ...





Lisa: this may be a bit off topic, but have you considered how many *more* people you could hire if everyone occupied the standard D&D 5ft square?  1400 in the office, and 3200 in the warehouse.  Not including Large-size employees, of course.  If nothing else, they could attack the original 26 full-timers one at a time or in groups...  No, wait, that wouldn't work: you'd have to fit in office supplies (unless we can fit folks in on top of office furniture).

I vote Flipmat: Paizo Office and Warehouse.


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## PaizoCEO (Dec 5, 2009)

Dragonblade said:


> I wouldn't mind seeing Paizo suck up some of that 4e know how that WotC released and starting up a separate 4e based development house. Maybe on a freelance basis to keep costs small.
> 
> I like what Paizo is doing as a company, I just have grown to loathe playing or DMing for the 3e ruleset. WotC does a fine job with rules and feats and such, but if I could get Paizo's love and attention to detail on a 4e adventure path or campaign setting, I'd snap it up in a heartbeat....




Hey Dragonblade:

I understand your frustration, but Paizo really can't afford to divide our attention into doing stuff for 4e.  Even if we could, I wouldn't feel comfortable doing so because of the terms of the GSL.  I never want to go back to a place where another company can tell me what I can or can't do with their IP.  I started Paizo doing stuff for Star Wars and D&D, and within 5 years, I lost both licenses not because we sucked or whatnot, but because both companies (Lucasfilm and WotC) decided that it made more strategic sense for them to take their licenses back in-house.  Trust me, having to come up with new product lines and revenues to save your company is something that I only want to go through once in my life.  The GSL is revokable, so that is a non-starter for me right there.  

-Lisa


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## PaizoCEO (Dec 5, 2009)

GMforPowergamers said:


> I normaly think small basment start ups as haveing 100-1,000 or so employees... the fact that wotc and you guys are so small really speaks volumes...
> 
> how many poeple are employeed in this feaild total? 5,000 maybe... most likly less...
> 
> ...




Actually, you are still way high.  If you noticed, WotC had 2000 employees back when they had a) retail stores and b) Pokemon.  From what I have heard, WotC is somewhere around 150 to 200 total employees, maybe even less.  White Wolf is somewhere around Paizo's size, and perhaps a bit less.  Steve Jackson has less employees than Paizo last I heard.  Games Workshop is probably the company who is most likely to be the same size as WotC, but I doubt anybody else breaks 100.  Or even 50.  We tend to use a lot of contractors to do art and edit and legal and such.  And work really, really hard.    This industry is much smaller than most people give it credit for.  And most consumers' estimations of company size are from data that is 10 or more years old.  Not that there is that much good data to be had out there.  i hope this enlightens a little better.

-Lisa


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## DaveMage (Dec 6, 2009)

BryonD said:


> You get WotC.  We get Paizo.




@Dragonblade: Ha-ha!   /Nelson


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## Khur (Dec 6, 2009)

PaizoCEO said:


> WotC may be the 800 lb. gorilla in this industry, but Paizo is at least a 400 lb. gorilla.



Yep, Paizo and a few others have actual offices. I should've said so, but it was beside the point. 

I guess, as far as size goes, it depends on what we mean when we use the _sizable simian_ metaphor. If we're talking market share, I think it's inaccurate to say Paizo has even half what Wizards does.

But, again, that's beside my point and not something a really interested in debating. I'm very glad Paizo can be successful, no matter what metaphor is used to describe it.



PaizoCEO said:


> This industry is much smaller than most people give it credit for.  And most consumers' estimations of company size are . . .



 . . . not based on any data at all.  Just like our estimation of a company's income, sales, and stuff like that is often based on what we hope is true for a company we like.

You're very, very right about the size of th industry and the hard work. Thankfully, the industry large enough to employ . . . well . . . most of us.


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## Khur (Dec 6, 2009)

Klaus said:


> Chris, just wanted to chime in and say I regret that we didn't manage to work together. Hopefully we will in the future!



Actually, we did . . . sort of. I commented on your Sehanine work for Chris Youngs. I hope it sees publication, because you had some cool ideas.

Plus, Sehanine receives far too little love for her portfolio.


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## ggroy (Dec 6, 2009)

Armchair quarterbacking and speculation is a very popular pastime for some people.


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## Mark (Dec 6, 2009)

PaizoCEO said:


> (. . .) I do want to point out that Paizo has 26 full-time employees (and we are hiring still) who work in our 7,000 square foot office with a 16,000 square -foot warehouse.  They get very competitive salaries and Paizo pays all of their medical and dental insurance as well as that of their spouses/domestic partners and their children.  I just don't want people to think that Paizo is some sort of fly-by-night company working out of somebody's garage.  We have a full-time accountant, two customer service reps, two warehouse guys, and a heck of a lot of full-time designers.  WotC may be the 800 lb. gorilla in this industry, but Paizo is at least a 400 lb. gorilla.





Hi Lisa.  Thanks for personally handling a flipmat exchange for me at Gencon a couple of years back  Your customer service from the top down is excellent.

May I ask how many people Paizo has annually had to lay off to help with cost control?


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## TheAuldGrump (Dec 6, 2009)

BryonD said:


> You get WotC.  We get Paizo.



Sounds like a deal to me! 

A bit unfair though... we get Paizo, they get WotC.... Why should we be the lucky ones?   (Incidentally, ran the first part of Crimson Throne this afternoon. Some of the best fun that I have had running a game in the last year!  The new Path looks to be just as much fun.)

The Auld Grump, yes I am a sadist, but my players love me for it....


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## Rechan (Dec 6, 2009)

TheAuldGrump said:


> Why should we be the lucky ones?



Speak for yourself.


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## Klaus (Dec 6, 2009)

Khur said:


> Actually, we did . . . sort of. I commented on your Sehanine work for Chris Youngs. I hope it sees publication, because you had some cool ideas.
> 
> Plus, Sehanine receives far too little love for her portfolio.



I know you did the comments, I just wished we went into it a bit more.


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## Erik Mona (Dec 6, 2009)

Mark said:


> May I ask how many people Paizo has annually had to lay off to help with cost control?




Paizo has laid off about a half-dozen people since it started 7 years ago, mostly because the magazines they were working on had to be closed for various reasons.

The company has never conducted "regular" annual layoffs, if that's what you're asking.

--Erik Mona
Publisher
Paizo Publishing


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## Roland55 (Dec 6, 2009)

PaizoCEO said:


> Hey y'all:
> 
> While Chris is spot on that nobody is really the size of Wizards in both market share and number of employees, I do want to point out that Paizo has 26 full-time employees (and we are hiring still) who work in our 7,000 square foot office with a 16,000 square -foot warehouse.  They get very competitive salaries and Paizo pays all of their medical and dental insurance as well as that of their spouses/domestic partners and their children.  I just don't want people to think that Paizo is some sort of fly-by-night company working out of somebody's garage.  We have a full-time accountant, two customer service reps, two warehouse guys, and a heck of a lot of full-time designers.  WotC may be the 800 lb. gorilla in this industry, but Paizo is at least a 400 lb. gorilla.
> 
> ...




I daresay this will surprise few -- it certainly didn't surprise me.

Congratulations on the success of Paizo; long may it continue.


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## TheAuldGrump (Dec 6, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Speak for yourself.



Errrr... I think that I am the only one that I _can_ speak for. 

I really like Paizo's products, most especially Curse of the Crimson Throne. WotC's adventures just never grabbed me like Paizo's Adventure Paths - Paizo even got me reading Dungeon Magazine again, while it was under their helm. (And I had given up on the magazine.)

Since much of the enjoyment that I get out of the adventures is from the setting and atmosphere (I am really digging the plague in Crimson Throne) you might well be able to convert the adventures to 4e. (If that was your intent, I am not at all certain on that.)

Back on topic - yeah, RPG companies are small. They always have been. In many ways this is still a cottage industry, with folks putting in hours outside of their full time jobs.

Full time people are actually more likely in the supporting industries - making miniatures, game mats, and the like.

The Auld Grump


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## BryonD (Dec 6, 2009)

TheAuldGrump said:


> Errrr... I think that I am the only one that I _can_ speak for.



Perhaps I'm misreading, but I think he was tongue in cheek taking exception to the "we" in your statement.  As in, he is quite happy being a lucky one, thank you very much.


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## TheAuldGrump (Dec 6, 2009)

BryonD said:


> Perhaps I'm misreading, but I think he was tongue in cheek taking exception to the "we" in your statement.  As in, he is quite happy being a lucky one, thank you very much.



Ah, never mind then.

*DING!* Next!

The Auld Grump, sorry, half watching Hogfather for the third time.


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## Xyxox (Dec 6, 2009)

PaizoCEO said:


> Actually, you are still way high.  If you noticed, WotC had 2000 employees back when they had a) retail stores and b) Pokemon.  From what I have heard, WotC is somewhere around 150 to 200 total employees, maybe even less.  White Wolf is somewhere around Paizo's size, and perhaps a bit less.  Steve Jackson has less employees than Paizo last I heard.  Games Workshop is probably the company who is most likely to be the same size as WotC, but I doubt anybody else breaks 100.  Or even 50.  We tend to use a lot of contractors to do art and edit and legal and such.  And work really, really hard.    This industry is much smaller than most people give it credit for.  And most consumers' estimations of company size are from data that is 10 or more years old.  Not that there is that much good data to be had out there.  i hope this enlightens a little better.
> 
> -Lisa




Games Workshop is much much larger than WotC. The marketing model demands support of over 300 retail stores globally where they realize approximately 50% of their sales resulting in 1000+ employees worldwide. In 2005 it was reported to be 3200 employees, but they've closed omse stores since then and have been altering their store hours and how their store managers work. Some stores now have only two employees total and are open most days 1:00 PM to ~10:00 PM in the states to catch the target demographic at key hours.


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## Nai_Calus (Dec 6, 2009)

Khur said:


> Plus, Sehanine receives far too little love for her portfolio.




(*rimshot*)

That's because Corellon, even 4e Corellon, is still about a billion times cooler.


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## Jack99 (Dec 6, 2009)

@Chris

Thanks for answering my question. Both your answer and the replies from other industry insiders were very telling...


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## PaizoCEO (Dec 6, 2009)

Mark said:


> May I ask how many people Paizo has annually had to lay off to help with cost control?




We actually don't release that kind of information because it is personal between us and the employee.  Every company has to do layoffs at various times either because their business has changed or because times are tough.  Paizo hasn't been immune in the past to layoffs.  But I can tell you that it is one of the most gut-wrenching, tear-jerking things that a CEO has to do, and if I never had to let another employee go, then that would be amazing.  But I am not that naive.  I am sure Paizo will have to layoff people in the future.  Just as Wizards will.  Just as Fantasy Flight will.  Just as Steve Jackson will.  Just as White Wolf will.  And so on.  It is part of running a business.  One that I hate, but you can't run a business without having to let employees go at various times.  I am just happy that this Christmas won't see any layoffs at Paizo.  That is something to be thankful for.

-Lisa


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## Snoweel (Dec 6, 2009)

TheAuldGrump said:


> you might well be able to convert the adventures to 4e.




We can and do.

Unfortunately the APs set in Golarion are so well tied to the setting that I find they require re-writing rather than just conversion.

The Greyhawk ones (SC, AoW, ST) go pretty well though.

Paizo truly has the best fluff. I've been tempted to just run my game in their setting but the mechanics feel outdated and I'd hate to have to convert everything.

Still, I'd say I've got WotC *and* Paizo supporting my game.


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## Bluenose (Dec 6, 2009)

Xyxox said:


> Games Workshop is much much larger than WotC. The marketing model demands support of over 300 retail stores globally where they realize approximately 50% of their sales resulting in 1000+ employees worldwide. In 2005 it was reported to be 3200 employees, but they've closed omse stores since then and have been altering their store hours and how their store managers work. Some stores now have only two employees total and are open most days 1:00 PM to ~10:00 PM in the states to catch the target demographic at key hours.




Their latest financial report has 2,285 employees in 2009. 

Is it plausible that's more than everyone else put together?


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## avin (Dec 6, 2009)

Erik Mona said:


> The company has never conducted "regular" annual layoffs, if that's what you're asking.




That's the reason I admire Paizo and get some products at your website from time to time, even not playing Pathfinder. Heck, I'm still considering buying the monster stuff just for the fluff... 

_(Shame on people trying to push their edition like a child showing his favorite to to his father... tsc tsc tsc)_


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## Mark (Dec 6, 2009)

Erik Mona said:


> Paizo has laid off about a half-dozen people since it started 7 years ago, mostly because the magazines they were working on had to be closed for various reasons.
> 
> The company has never conducted "regular" annual layoffs, if that's what you're asking.
> 
> ...







PaizoCEO said:


> We actually don't release that kind of information because it is personal between us and the employee.  Every company has to do layoffs at various times either because their business has changed or because times are tough.  Paizo hasn't been immune in the past to layoffs.  But I can tell you that it is one of the most gut-wrenching, tear-jerking things that a CEO has to do, and if I never had to let another employee go, then that would be amazing.  But I am not that naive.  I am sure Paizo will have to layoff people in the future.  Just as Wizards will.  Just as Fantasy Flight will.  Just as Steve Jackson will.  Just as White Wolf will.  And so on.  It is part of running a business.  One that I hate, but you can't run a business without having to let employees go at various times.  I am just happy that this Christmas won't see any layoffs at Paizo.  That is something to be thankful for.
> 
> -Lisa





Thanks, both.  I can see how releasing the names might be problematic for the individuals involved, so I won't ask for them.  It's good to know that an annual layoff policy need not be part of the business model of a successful RPG company in this economy.


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## wedgeski (Dec 6, 2009)

Mark said:


> Thanks, both.  I can see how releasing the names might be problematic for the individuals involved, so I won't ask for them.  It's good to know that an annual layoff policy need not be part of the business model of a successful RPG company in this economy.



Oh for heaven's sake, Mark.


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## Mark (Dec 6, 2009)

avin said:


> _(Shame on people trying to push their edition like a child showing his favorite to to his father... tsc tsc tsc)_






wedgeski said:


> Oh for heaven's sake, Mark.





Oh, stop trying to make this an edition thing.  Our group starts its Hommlet 4E campaign in a week or so.  You guys aren't really so enthralled as to think that if you like a game then that company that makes it can do no wrong, do you?  WotC has made some incredibly poor decisions over the last few years (some would say longer) that have adversely effected the lives of the people who wrote the game you are apparently trying to defend by stifling policy discussions.  There are ways to run a company, or division of a corporation, that do not require a business model with built-in annual layoffs.  Companies in this small industry who value their employees in a manner that avoids cyclical layoffs as a matter of course are to be commended, IMO.  Others who have business practices that leave employees and their families out in the cold should not be shielded by smokescreens of fan-edition-favoritism.  Someone might not be able to completely change a corporate policy by expressing outrage, or simply posting displeasure like I do while pointing out a better way and companies who follow it, but it sure beats the alternative of quietly accepting what should be considered unacceptable.  I feel incredibly bad for the employees who have lost their means of income from WotC this year just before the holidays, and each year that it happens, and for their spouses and their children who depend on that income.  I think it is a shameful business practice that need not be.  If you two wish to defend it, feel free, but don't try to twist it into an edition war because I'll have none of that.


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## Umbran (Dec 6, 2009)

Mark said:


> It's good to know that an annual layoff policy need not be part of the business model of a successful RPG company in this economy.




Maybe I missed something.

Has anyone from WotC said "this is part of our business model"?  Have we even established evidence that they do really fire folks _every year_, that it might be part of a preplanned model?


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## malraux (Dec 6, 2009)

Bluenose said:


> Their latest financial report has 2,285 employees in 2009.
> 
> Is it plausible that's more than everyone else put together?




If GW still has retail stores, that will really inflate their numbers.  Their IR page claims 330 GW retail stores.  Think about what it takes to keep a single hole in the wall store open.  Even if you just open for a single shift (1PM-10PM), you'll need several different people to work the cash register, to cover the week, managers, etc.  And if the store has any size, you'll be doing multiple shifts at once.  It will add up quickly for each store.  Then multiply that by 330 (for each of the different retail stores) and you end up with a huge overhead.


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## Cadfan (Dec 6, 2009)

Mark said:


> Oh, stop trying to make this an edition thing.  Our group starts its Hommlet 4E campaign in a week or so.  You guys aren't really so enthralled as to think that if you like a game then that company that makes it can do no wrong, do you?  WotC has made some incredibly poor decisions over the last few years (some would say longer) that have adversely effected the lives of the people who wrote the game you are apparently trying to defend by stifling policy discussions.  There are ways to run a company, or division of a corporation, that do not require a business model with built-in annual layoffs.  Companies in this small industry who value their employees in a manner that avoids cyclical layoffs as a matter of course are to be commended, IMO.  Others who have business practices that leave employees and their families out in the cold should not be shielded by smokescreens of fan-edition-favoritism.  Someone might not be able to completely change a corporate policy by expressing outrage, or simply posting displeasure like I do while pointing out a better way and companies who follow it, but it sure beats the alternative of quietly accepting what should be considered unacceptable.  I feel incredibly bad for the employees who have lost their means of income from WotC this year just before the holidays, and each year that it happens, and for their spouses and their children who depend on that income.  I think it is a shameful business practice that need not be.  If you two wish to defend it, feel free, but don't try to twist it into an edition war because I'll have none of that.



Annual Layoffs < Random Layoffs ?


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## Nikosandros (Dec 6, 2009)

Umbran said:


> Maybe I missed something.
> 
> Has anyone from WotC said "this is part of our business model"?  Have we even established evidence that they do really fire folks _every year_, that it might be part of a preplanned model?



As far as I know, there has been no such declaration... however, since this practice has been a constant every year it really _does_ look like a pre-planned model.


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## Khur (Dec 6, 2009)

ggroy said:


> Armchair quarterbacking and speculation is a very popular pastime for some people.



And it's fun, so I don't begrudge anyone that.

On topic, I think it's neat that different companies can operate in such differing ways and still have success. Paizo and Fantasy Flight, among others, have offices. Green Ronin doesn't, but it has a great team. All use freelance to one extent or another, which keeps numerous folks all over the world at least dabbling in design. It's an interesting dynamic.

I wonder if a decentralized collaborative model is heading to the fore?

Acknowledging our tiny and challenging gaming-industry universe, I'd also like to add that I admire those who have started tabletop companies--Chris Pramas, Lisa Stevens, Jospeh Goodman, and others from tiny operations too numerous to list, such as my pal Ian Johnston of Silverthorne Games. A lot of cool stuff has come out because of such folks. I like to think it's good for the industry to have this diversity.

That's one reason I'm looking forward to reading the tabletop _Dragon Age RPG_.


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## Mark (Dec 6, 2009)

Umbran said:


> Maybe I missed something.
> 
> Has anyone from WotC said "this is part of our business model"?  Have we even established evidence that they do really fire folks _every year_, that it might be part of a preplanned model?







> An anonymous source tells me that WotC had it's *usual annual pre-Christmas layoffs* yesterday (. . .)





http://www.enworld.org/forum/news/268911-friday-4-december-2009-a.html


I hope your contrarian nature isn't going to claim that unless they come out and expressly, explicitedly say it is part of their business model, it isn't.


And as to so-called "random" layoffs . . . please.  There are no "random" layoffs anywhere and there is a difference between doing something cyclically as part of a model and doing things because of specific downturns in business.  Stop playing that card.


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## avin (Dec 6, 2009)

Mark said:


> If you two wish to defend it, feel free, but don't try to twist it into an edition war because I'll have none of that.




Me?

Please, point where I supported this decision and, please, do a quick search and look for my last post at Wotc boards, same nickname.

I don't care about editions.


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## Mark (Dec 7, 2009)

Umbran said:


> Maybe I missed something.
> 
> Has anyone from WotC said "this is part of our business model"?  Have we even established evidence that they do really fire folks _every year_, that it might be part of a preplanned model?




http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...o-logan-bonner-chris-sims-10.html#post5020354



CharlesRyan said:


> I think I can speak with some authority on WotC's nearly annual layoff cycle. In addition to being a victim of it, I survived several rounds in which better people than I were let go.


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## Mark (Dec 7, 2009)

avin said:


> _(Shame on people trying to push their edition like a child showing his favorite to to his father... tsc tsc tsc)_







avin said:


> I don't care about editions.





Please don't imply that other people are arguing edition when they take exception to WotC's layoff policy.


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## Dire Bare (Dec 7, 2009)

Mark said:


> I hope your contrarian nature isn't going to claim that unless they come out and expressly, explicitedly say it is part of their business model, it isn't.
> 
> 
> And as to so-called "random" layoffs . . . please.  There are no "random" layoffs anywhere and there is a difference between doing something cyclically as part of a model and doing things because of specific downturns in business.  Stop playing that card.




Dude, really.  WotC has certainly laid off people around the end of the year more than a few times.  But to state that they must have some sort of annual layoff policy is ridiculous.  You really think WotC has a policy that states, "Okay, every year, no matter what, we gotta axe some folks, it's policy!"

I feel WotC could be better managed to avoid the semi-regular end of the year layoffs, and I agree their attitude towards retaining employees is cavalier.  But I doubt there are some evil suits twiddling their mustaches and cackling over who'll they'll axe this year.

It's a year-by-year decision, as it is for every company of decent size.  It's simply a shame WotC hasn't learned, or taken the time to learn, how to change their business model to avoid this recurring problem.


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## Bugleyman (Dec 7, 2009)

While it's true that layoffs are sometimes a necessity, repeatedly laying people off right before Christmas requires a disturbing lack of sensitivity.  Just the sort of lack most often seen in bigger companies, in fact...

Lisa's comments demonstrate that layoffs need not be done carelessly (or heartlessly).  Whether or not one likes Pathfinder, Paizo and Co. are good people.


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## Mark (Dec 7, 2009)

Dire Bare said:


> (. . .) to state that they must have some sort of annual layoff policy is (. . .)





Evident.  Apparently the anonymous source of Morrus and the report of Charles Ryan who was personally effected, as well as the annual layoffs all seem to be in agreement.




Dire Bare said:


> I doubt there are some evil suits twiddling their mustaches and cackling over who'll they'll axe this year.





Funny.  Of course, that isn't something I put forth.  In all likelihood, the people who were involved in canning other WotC employees some years ago aren't the same ones doing it this year.  BTW, reductio ad absurdum only works if the point against which you are arguing hasn't already been confirmed.




Dire Bare said:


> It's a year-by-year decision, as it is for every company of decent size.





"Decent?"  Your irony meter must be pegging about now.




Dire Bare said:


> It's simply a shame WotC hasn't learned, or taken the time to learn, how to change their business model to avoid this recurring problem.





So, in your scenario, WotC hasn't the institutional memory or collective intelligence to avoid a recurring problem, rather than a general policy that each year they will ensure their bottom line by making staff cuts.  I'm interested to know why you think ill of them?  In my own scenario I consider them corporate and neutrally unfeeling while in your scenario those running the division must not have the sense to adjust to an annual slip up that costs many employees their jobs.  Between the two of us, I am actually the one giving those who work for the corporation the respect they deserve.


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## Dire Bare (Dec 8, 2009)

Mark said:


> So, in your scenario, WotC hasn't the institutional memory or collective intelligence to avoid a recurring problem, rather than a general policy that each year they will ensure their bottom line by making staff cuts.  I'm interested to know why you think ill of them?  In my own scenario I consider them corporate and neutrally unfeeling while in your scenario those running the division must not have the sense to adjust to an annual slip up that costs many employees their jobs.  Between the two of us, I am actually the one giving those who work for the corporation the respect they deserve.




Wow Mark, you and I certainly are not on the same page . . . I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree, which is cool.

I do feel that WotC does not have any sort of annual layoff policy and that the layoff decisions are a year-by-year decision.  And that the situation certainly looks like regular annual layoffs is a result of poor management decisions.

That's not to say that all of WotC's management decisions are poor, but obviously they haven't figured out how to fix this one yet.

To assume that means I feel ill will towards WotC and/or their management is silly.  It just means I feel they have a problem they have not yet solved.

Overall, WotC is one of several companies I actually respect.  They have lasted a long time in a tough industry and have put out stellar product that I purchase on a regular basis.  But I feel their attitude towards retaining employees/talent is too cavalier, and that lessens my respect for the company.

It's a common corporate flaw in this day, WotC is far from alone on this issue.  One of the reasons why I personally try and avoid working in corporate environments.


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## wingsandsword (Dec 8, 2009)

PaizoCEO said:


> While Chris is spot on that nobody is really the size of Wizards in both market share and number of employees, I do want to point out that Paizo has 26 full-time employees (and we are hiring still) who work in our 7,000 square foot office with a 16,000 square -foot warehouse.  They get very competitive salaries and Paizo pays all of their medical and dental insurance as well as that of their spouses/domestic partners and their children.  I just don't want people to think that Paizo is some sort of fly-by-night company working out of somebody's garage.  We have a full-time accountant, two customer service reps, two warehouse guys, and a heck of a lot of full-time designers.  WotC may be the 800 lb. gorilla in this industry, but Paizo is at least a 400 lb. gorilla.




Wow, y'all have come a long way.  I remember when I called in Summer of '03 to order some back issues of Dragon and you answered the phone and took the order.  I figured if you were answering the phones yourself you had to be kinda small, never quite thought about how much you must have grown over the last 6 or so years.

Good to hear you're doing so well.


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## Eridanis (Dec 8, 2009)

This has been an informative thread with good information. Please don't force us to close it because of a degenerating tone of conversation.

Let's try to keep this closer to Chris' original topic (size of RPG companies) and away from focusing on the current round of WotC layoffs (plenty of other threads for that).


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## Mournblade94 (Dec 8, 2009)

Bugleyman said:


> While it's true that layoffs are sometimes a necessity, repeatedly laying people off right before Christmas requires a disturbing lack of sensitivity.  Just the sort of lack most often seen in bigger companies, in fact...




I am no defender of WOTC's policy,  but huge corporations (of which WOTC is PART of) often lay off employees just before christmas.  It has nothing to do with WOTC being even worse.  It simply works out with fiscal year ending.


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## waxbanks (Dec 14, 2009)

*not gorillas but elephants...*

Mod Edit:  If you'd like to get a week long ban from ENWorld then posting a post like this right below a moderator warning to keep things civil and on topic is a great way to do it.



wingsandsword said:


> Wow, y'all have come a long way.  I remember when I called in Summer of '03 to order some back issues of Dragon and you answered the phone and took the order.  I figured if you were answering the phones yourself you had to be kinda small, never quite thought about how much you must have grown over the last 6 or so years.
> 
> Good to hear you're doing so well.




I understand the combination of defensiveness and pride that *PaizoCEO* displays, and it's swell that they're doing swell, but the biggest difference between Paizo and WOTC is that no one has ever heard of Paizo or any of their products, and everyone has heard of D&D.

Just trying to make the point here that thinking about Paizo and WOTC in terms of business 'competition' is a little silly; Paizo makes specialty products in a specialty field, WOTC makes mass-market products (in that same field) which land on the nonfiction(!) bestseller lists. _The difference is not size._

Businesswise, Paizo doesn't really have the capacity to find or make new audiences; their flagship product, remember, is a $50 textbook reworking a WOTC game. They consciously ride WOTC's coattails. Ken Hite said of the PFRPG launch, 'Wizards is building a band, Paizo is building a religion.' That's lovely and admirable in its way. But the Big Inflexible Corporation put out a radical reworking of its flagship product in 2008, while in 2009 the '400 lb. gorilla' put out a gorgeous, lovingly-detailed product designed to closely resemble the Old News.

If you can make a living at that, then your nonexistent deity of choice has blessed you. So do I!

But as has been pointed out upthread, no one makes the decision between an awesome new X-Box game and a copy of _Mouse Guard RPG_ - or _Pathfinder_ - while someone _might_ decide between video games and D&D. Every RPG except D&D 'competes' against other RPGs. D&D is the hobby's face, and therefore competes for cold cash, _on behalf of the entire hobby_, with things other than roleplaying games.

Comparing business decisions by each company means taking that stuff into account. Since this is a fan board about gaming, such comparisons aren't likely to be super-duper fruitful here (if anywhere).

And that's my grousing for the day. Carry on, (mostly) gents.


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## Plane Sailing (Dec 14, 2009)

GMforPowergamers said:


> I normaly think small basment start ups as haveing 100-1,000 or so employees... the fact that wotc and you guys are so small really speaks volumes...




Wow, you must have HUGE basements over in the States!

I normally think of small basement start ups as having 1-2 employees (mostly owner-operators)!

Cheers


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## catsclaw227 (Dec 14, 2009)

In the US, the general guidelines are:

SMBs (small and medium businesses - in EU called SMEs)
SOHO  1-10 employees
Small 11-100 employees
Medium 101-500 employees


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## Piratecat (Dec 14, 2009)

I asked WotC's president Greg Leeds about the nearly annual layoffs when I spoke to him this summer, as I was curious how lean they were running. 

At the time both he and Bill Slaviscek agreed that they were at about the right level of staff. WotC restructured in December 2008 when trying to figure out how to integrate in the digital organization. Greg said that having the right level of staffing is a moving target and that they were constantly looking at opportunities to make sure they had the right number of people to meet them. Most of their recent hiring had been in technology.

Clearly, that means that they probably do a Q3 evaluation to see what their correct staffing levels should be over the next 12 months. It disappoints me that such talent was laid off.


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## SSquirrel (Dec 14, 2009)

Businesses typically cover a large portion of an employee's health care each month.  As much as we lose each paycheck, the employer loses more.  If they fire you on Jan 1st, they still have to pay for January and are out that money.  If they fired you in December, they will only be required to have covered you thru the rest of that month.  Keeps extra people off of quarterly reports and such as well, simpler bookkeeping.  Why have 50 full time people who list thru an entire quarter plus 5 other people you first the first week of the month when you could have had them off the records the month before.

People always want to get on companies for doing these things at the holidays, but not everyone celebrates those holidays.  I'm not in favor of people losing their jobs and not really trying to defend companies doing it, but it's going to happen at some point in the year, if they feel it needs done.  They will have a better idea of how their books are looking than we do and know when they need to take the actions.    

Piratecat probably has the right of it.  Look at things in the fall, take action in the winter....


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## unseenmage (Dec 23, 2009)

Aimed at Mr. Sims. 

   You have my support and condolences. I had the luck of working with you briefly recently and can testify at least a little to your patience and skills. 

   So what happens to your workloads, emails, works in progress? As I understand it you had quite a backload of work you were doing yourself (emails per day in the double or even triple digits if I remember correctly) that is now going to be... what? Handed off to one other (now doubly) overwoked employee? Divided among those remaining like x-mas dinner leftovers? 

   Apologies for my tone but despite myself I can't find a better voice to ask this question in. I mean no disrespect to anyone involved, be they the ones let go or those who've remained. You guys all do great work. 

Unseenmage


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## Herschel (Dec 23, 2009)

One thing I've been curious about is actual warehouse and shipping in the industry. I'm wondering how much drop shipping (shipping direct from vendor/supplier to distributor) is done to save warehouse manpower and space.


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## Infiniti2000 (Dec 30, 2009)

The RPG industry has a significant disadvantage (for designers) than probably any other industry.  The RPG industry has a massive talent pool.  In fact, _the games themselves are designed to create a bigger pool_.  At least one individual (the GM) from every single group playing the game is given training by the books and gets training every time they play to be a designer.  How can anyone who has GMed not thought to themselves, "Hey, I could work as a game designer!"?  This is the disadvantage because it creates a huge amount of competition for those people who desire to do this professionally.  For example, I think I would do well as a game designer, but I also realize that it would be extraordinarily difficult, if not outright impossible, to get into the business.  With two small children, I'm happy to stay in my reasonably secure six-figure salary at a large (45K+ employees) fortune 500 company.   There's no way I could get similar job security in the RPG industry.

Like it or not, having such a huge pool of telented game designers, trained mostly by your games in fact, can easily and understandably lead to a high turnover rate.  The mere fact that we have so many heated topics (e.g. edition wars) shows that there are A LOT of people who think that they know what they're talking about in terms of game design (and I daresay most if not all of them do, because they were trained well enough as GMs).

I'm not justifying or explaining any business decisions by Hasbro, Paizo, or others, but just pointing out a fact that I don't think has been mentioned in any of the threads I've read (including the large, closed one).


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## keterys (Dec 30, 2009)

You'd be surprised how many DMs really couldn't cut it when it came to providing consistent and legible product. Self-editing is extraordinarily rare and... well... Have you ever seen something like the beginning of American Idol where people who think they sing wonderfully really don't? I mean, it sounded great in the shower, right?

And yeah, the money involved, and the inherent competition... don't quit your day job, as they say. I wish the industry were a lot more profitable and employed a lot more people.


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## Mouseferatu (Dec 31, 2009)

DMing teaches people to be game designers the same way reading teaches them to be writers. In other words, it's a necessary first step, but it's not _remotely_ the _only_ step, and while many people do indeed have a legitimate talent for it, a far greater number of people are incorrect in thinking they do.


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## Dice4Hire (Dec 31, 2009)

Mouseferatu said:


> DMing teaches people to be game designers the same way reading teaches them to be writers. In other words, it's a necessary first step, but it's not _remotely_ the _only_ step, and while many people do indeed have a legitimate talent for it, a far greater number of people are incorrect in thinking they do.




But then again, the bar for a successful game (fun) is far less than that for a successful product (job/profit).

But I agree there are few people who both have a talent for designing RPGs, and of course, fewer still who have the desire.


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## Mouseferatu (Dec 31, 2009)

Dice4Hire said:


> But then again, the bar for a successful game (fun) is far less than that for a successful product (job/profit).




Oh, sure. The "it" I was referring to was being a professional designer/writer. I know quite a few people who are great DMs, but who don't need to be writing game products.


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## Infiniti2000 (Dec 31, 2009)

I wouldn't be surprised at it at all. Nor am I surprised, for example, at the number of programmers who really suck at software design. The point however is that there are a lot of them (GMs that is). Even if there's only a tiny fraction of them competent enough to be product game designers (or at least paid contributors) that number has to dwarf the available pool of established designers.  The interesting thing though, at least I find it interesting, is that it is essentially the work of the pros training the unproven masses.


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## Darrin Drader (Dec 31, 2009)

Just for the sake of acknowledging all the RPG companies that have a full time staff of two or more, here's the list (to the best of my knowledge). If anyone has any additional insight, feel free to add to my list: WotC, Paizo, Mongoose, Super Genius, Games Workshop, White Wolf, Fantasy Flight Games, Steve Jackson Games (I think). Note that FFG and GW have found different niches in which they are successful. Personally, I loves me the Arkham Horror.


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## crazy_cat (Dec 31, 2009)

Darrin Drader said:


> Just for the sake of acknowledging all the RPG companies that have a full time staff of two or more, here's the list...



Cubicle 7 and Green Ronin perhaps? This is just a hunch on my part really.


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## Nikosandros (Dec 31, 2009)

Darrin Drader said:


> Steve Jackson Games (I think). Note that FFG and GW have found different niches in which they are successful. Personally, I loves me the Arkham Horror.



SJGames has 2 people working full time on GURPS, but like for FFG, their main income comes from non-RPG products, mainly Munchkin.


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