# Grimm or Once Upon a Time



## Mark CMG (Oct 29, 2011)

So, there are a couple new shows with similar source material.  Which show is going to be worth our time . . . Grimm or Once Upon a Time?


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## Kzach (Oct 29, 2011)

Once Upon a Time.

Grimm has been done to death and is really nothing new. Once Upon a Time is at least a somewhat original (at least to TV) concept that is already light-years ahead of Grimm in writing and acting (based on viewing one episode of each which admittedly isn't conclusive but the signs are definitely there).

Honestly, I don't think Grimm will even finish its first season before being cut. Irrespective of my own bias against such an unoriginal, uncreative and lackluster rehash, I just don't see it grabbing any particular demographic. There's nothing about the lead or any of the co-stars or their characters that is compelling enough to snatch up even a niche audience. I mean, something like Supernatural at least has two studly leads who portray kick-ass characters for the female demographic, but the lead in this is just another good-looking white male Hollywood actor with nothing really outstanding or interesting about him or his character. There are no hot babes either, unless you're into creepy, undead chicks.

Once Upon A Time at least has an element of piqued curiosity about it that makes you want to see what happens, irrespective of eye-candy or good or bad writing/acting. Grimm doesn't even have that going for it.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 29, 2011)

I haven't seen Once Upon a Time yet. Two more or less nitpicky things t hat make me worry Grimm might not deliver good stories in the long run:

1) Their research seemed to be lacking. Even assuming we call Werwolves "Blutblad" in German, the plural should be "Blutbläder" (Blutbladen or rather Blut bladen sounds like a verb). As I said, nitpicky, but if they didn't spend the effort there, where else will they not spend it.

2) I don't get why humming the victim's iPod song convinces a police man to shoot down a suspect whose house you just broken into. I was hoping for something more... clever. Maybe the cop/Grimm showing the werewolf something red and putting him off his game, or something like that.


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## Villano (Oct 29, 2011)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> 1) Their research seemed to be lacking. Even assuming we call Werwolves "Blutblad" in German, the plural should be "Blutbläder" (Blutbladen or rather Blut bladen sounds like a verb). As I said, nitpicky, but if they didn't spend the effort there, where else will they not spend it.




I don't think they claimed Blutbad was German for werewolf, just that that's what werewolves are really called.  Sort of like, "We're called Lycans, not werewolves!"

Anyway, of the two, I enjoyed Grimm more.  I liked it enough to program it on my DVR.

As for Once Upon A Time, I was looking forward to it, but I only watched half of the episode.  Everything seemed a little forced.  The kid shows up and she takes his word for it that he's her son and drives him home.  And then she gets in a crash trying to avoid a wolf and wakes in the drunk tank?

That's when I turned it off.  I thought that was just too stupid.  Even if they did explain why a cop would assume that a person in a car accident was drunk and why he didn't take that unconscious person to a hospital, the fact that the woman didn't raise a stink over it bothered me.  I think the normal reaction of that person would be, "I was in a car accident and you threw me in jail?! What the @#$%!&* is wrong with you?!"

Maybe it's just me, but one of my nitpicks is that I can suspend disbelief, but I hate when characters act in a stupid way just to move the story along.


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## Kzach (Oct 29, 2011)

Villano said:


> Maybe it's just me, but one of my nitpicks is that I can suspend disbelief, but I hate when characters act in a stupid way just to move the story along.




And yet, you liked Grimm.


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## Villano (Oct 29, 2011)

Kzach said:


> And yet, you liked Grimm.




Yes, because I didn't think anything that happened was as stupid as the car accident/drunk tank thing.


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## Crothian (Oct 29, 2011)

Hopefully, both will turn out good.  I see no reason why it has to be one or the other.


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## Mark CMG (Oct 29, 2011)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> 1) Their research seemed to be lacking. Even assuming we call Werwolves "Blutblad" in German, the plural should be "Blutbläder" (Blutbladen or rather Blut bladen sounds like a verb). As I said, nitpicky, but if they didn't spend the effort there, where else will they not spend it.





I suspect that wasn't a problem with research but rather a deliberate choice where the shows writers determined that having "bladder" (sp) as part of the name of what was meant to be fierce killers might jar American audiences out of the moment.




Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> 2) I don't get why humming the victim's iPod song convinces a police man to shoot down a suspect whose house you just broken into. I was hoping for something more... clever. Maybe the cop/Grimm showing the werewolf something red and putting him off his game, or something like that.





That was a bit thin.




Crothian said:


> Hopefully, both will turn out good.  I see no reason why it has to be one or the other.





I only have so much once-upon-a-television time.


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 29, 2011)

After seeing both shows, I can honestly say _Once Upon a Time._  It may be the best show in an otherwise sorry lot.


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## Umbran (Oct 30, 2011)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> 2) I don't get why humming the victim's iPod song convinces a police man to shoot down a suspect whose house you just broken into.




It didn't.  



Spoiler



Humming the song convinced him to break in - 'cause, you know, you figure mailmen who live out in the woods and do their own needlepoint and who apparently normally listen to classical music on their stereos probably aren't just *randomly* also fans of the Eurythmics.  

The shooting was because the guy cut the lights, assaulted them in the dark, and then tried to run.



Or, that's my take on it anyway.

I usually give shows a few episodes to decide if they are really worth it.  Only a few grab on one episode along (Firefly, I'm looking at you).  Both Grimm and Once Upon a Time were good enough to get me to watch a couple more episodes before I decide.

Oh, and for the Discordians and conspiracy fans out there, did you catch this?  "There are *23* predators withing a *5* mile radius...."  Would that they made it that interesting...


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## GSHamster (Oct 30, 2011)

Villano said:


> That's when I turned it off.  I thought that was just too stupid.  Even if they did explain why a cop would assume that a person in a car accident was drunk and why he didn't take that unconscious person to a hospital, the fact that the woman didn't raise a stink over it bothered me.  I think the normal reaction of that person would be, "I was in a car accident and you threw me in jail?! What the @#$%!&* is wrong with you?!"




She did have one or more stiff drinks at the mayor's house right before leaving. I assumed that the cop smelled it on her breath, and saw no other reason for the crash.

As for not raising a fuss, I think it was very much a "well, this day has been excessively weird so far, waking up in the drunk tank is pretty much par for the course by now".


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## Jack7 (Oct 30, 2011)

I hadn't heard of either one. Then again, aside from the news, I only watch TV on the weekends.

Thanks for mentioning them. That's what I like about this place.

I'll record them and see if either is any good.


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## Villano (Oct 30, 2011)

GSHamster said:


> She did have one or more stiff drinks at the mayor's house right before leaving. I assumed that the cop smelled it on her breath, and saw no other reason for the crash.




Oh, I got that part.  It was just the idea that a cop would come across an unconscious accident victim and take them to jail that bugged me.  I mean, it doesn't matter what _caused _ the crash at that point; they were unconscious in a smashed car.  

Most average people know enough not to move a car accident victim.  The fact that a cop did it annoyed me.


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## Crothian (Oct 30, 2011)

Grimm turned out to be pretty good.  So far, I like them both.


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## Umbran (Oct 30, 2011)

Villano said:


> Oh, I got that part.  It was just the idea that a cop would come across an unconscious accident victim and take them to jail that bugged me.  I mean, it doesn't matter what _caused _ the crash at that point; they were unconscious in a smashed car.




You realize the cop isn't a cop, right?  He's an ensorcelled fairy tale character....


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## Villano (Oct 30, 2011)

Umbran said:


> You realize the cop isn't a cop, right?  He's an ensorcelled fairy tale character....




Yes, but that leads to the 2nd point of my original post:  The woman didn't think it was unusual.

It reminded me of watching a B movie where some teenagers witness a murder or something.  They call the cops, but when they show up, they don't investigate or even listen to what the kids are saying.  Instead, they immediately accuse the kids of using drugs (or doing something else illegal) and threaten to arrest them.  

It's a case of people who don't act like people because you just want to get the plot from point A to point B. 

The kid shows up and claims to be her son, kid wants to be driven home, she meets someone who says the kid is crazy, and she wakes in a drunk tank after an accident.  Her reaction isn't to question anything.  She just sort of shrugs and goes along with it.

Like I said, I stopped watching at that point because I found it annoying.  It felt like a big rush to keep the story moving.

I know, I know, people will say, "The episode got better".  But I didn't like the storytelling _style_ enough to stick around.  

I have no problem with anyone else enjoying it, I just didn't like it.


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## Cor Azer (Oct 31, 2011)

Villano said:


> I have no problem with anyone else enjoying it, I just didn't like it.




I enjoyed it, but it's good that everybody doesn't like the same things - otherwise different things would never be tried.


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## BrooklynKnight (Oct 31, 2011)

Grimm didn't really grab me the same way Once Upon a Time did. Grimm wasnt nearly as bad as The Event for example. Im going to watch it a few more episodes. I'm committed to watching OUAT till the end though. It's a great take on the concept. 

I do feel I was right though, OUAT should have premiered with a two hour episode.


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## mr_outsidevoice (Oct 31, 2011)

I prefer Once Upon a Time. The backstory seems more developed.  If the writers actually know how to end the story, it could be a good run.

Grimm looks to be monster of the week with a season at most for a , and I apologize for this, Big Bad


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## Dire Bare (Oct 31, 2011)

Count me in as somebody who enjoyed the heck out of Grimm.  Is the "chosen one" hunting monsters a new trope, of course not, but I could care less.  Was there some thin plot points, oh sure, I picked up on those too.  But I found it to be well-acted, very atmospheric, creepy, and a whole lot of fun.  And that's all I need, is to be entertained.

Haven't seen Once Upon a Time yet, but I'll get around to it.

Not sure if this was mentioned upthread, but both shows are available for free streaming on Hulu, but the individual episodes have expiration dates, so don't dawdle!


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## Banshee16 (Oct 31, 2011)

GSHamster said:


> She did have one or more stiff drinks at the mayor's house right before leaving. I assumed that the cop smelled it on her breath, and saw no other reason for the crash.
> 
> As for not raising a fuss, I think it was very much a "well, this day has been excessively weird so far, waking up in the drunk tank is pretty much par for the course by now".




Based on what happened in the second episode, I figured the mayor "encouraged" the sheriff to arrest her after the car accident.

Banshee


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## Banshee16 (Oct 31, 2011)

Villano said:


> Yes, but that leads to the 2nd point of my original post:  The woman didn't think it was unusual.
> 
> It reminded me of watching a B movie where some teenagers witness a murder or something.  They call the cops, but when they show up, they don't investigate or even listen to what the kids are saying.  Instead, they immediately accuse the kids of using drugs (or doing something else illegal) and threaten to arrest them.
> 
> ...




In the second episode, I felt some of that stuff starts falling into place a little more.  Not perfectly, but her actions make sense, and you can see she's got some thought behind them.

As to Grimm, I liked that.  It's still early days....but I liked the humour, and I liked the "tone" better than that of Once Upon a Time...even if I felt that the idea behind Once Upon a Time was more original.

Even if Grimm is just a latter day Buffy remake, starring the Big Bad Wolf instead of vampires, I still think it could have legs.  As Pan's Labyrinth showed, you can get a really great horror bent out of fairy/faerie tales, and there are a *tonne* of creatures who could be featured.  If nothing else, it gets us aware from the current vampire/werewolf/witch paradigm we see in some other programs.  It's got a whole "these children's stories weren't fables....they were warnings" type of vibe, which could end up being cool.

I got a hoot about the big bad wolf marking his territory, and this sarcastic comment about the main character thinking he needed silver bullets to kill a werewolf.

Banshee


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## Gronin (Oct 31, 2011)

I enjoyed Once Upon a Time more than Grimm but at this point I am willing to give both shows a few more episodes.  

Once Upon a Time just seemed to have a more interesting overall storyline.  If Grimm turns into the "bad of the week" I will probably jettison it.


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## Dire Bare (Oct 31, 2011)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I don't get why humming the victim's iPod song convinces a police man to shoot down a suspect whose house you just broken into. I was hoping for something more... clever. Maybe the cop/Grimm showing the werewolf something red and putting him off his game, or something like that.






Umbran said:


> It didn't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree with Umbran that the bad guy humming the song was a clue, not the reason why our hero's partner shot him.  Still, he couldn't have just shot him in the leg?  The guy was running away and the cop was in no immediate danger at that point.  These two are made out to be pretty good (as in quality) cops, and that part didn't sit well with me.


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## Dire Bare (Oct 31, 2011)

Villano said:


> As for Once Upon A Time, I was looking forward to it, but I only watched half of the episode.  Everything seemed a little forced.  The kid shows up and she takes his word for it that he's her son and drives him home.  And then she gets in a crash trying to avoid a wolf and wakes in the drunk tank?
> 
> That's when I turned it off.  I thought that was just too stupid.  Even if they did explain why a cop would assume that a person in a car accident was drunk and why he didn't take that unconscious person to a hospital, the fact that the woman didn't raise a stink over it bothered me.  I think the normal reaction of that person would be, "I was in a car accident and you threw me in jail?! What the @#$%!&* is wrong with you?!"
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but one of my nitpicks is that I can suspend disbelief, but I hate when characters act in a stupid way just to move the story along.




Finally watched the pilot tonight.

I had no problem with Emma believing Henry.  She didn't at first, but he had his details straight and she DID give up a son for adoption ten years ago.  Not a stretch, IMO.  And, of course, with the fairy tale theme, Emma is drawn to Henry despite her tough girl, loner persona.

I do agree that putting her in the drunk tank seemed off, but Storybrook, Maine is a place where the folks are strange and things happen for a reason . . . again, it's the fairy tale theme happening again.  And she does criticize the sheriff for arresting her by claiming she was not drunk . . . she did only have one drink, and didn't finish it at that (unfortunately, it was an evil APPLE drink!).  I didn't find her reactions to waking up in the drunk tank off at all . . . but it would have made more sense to have her wake up in a hospital bed . . . but does Storybrook have a hospital?  I'll let that one go pretty easily.

Still, I think I like Grimm better.  We'll see how each show goes after a few more episodes.  The whole, _"everyone from all the fairy tales, including Disney's add-ons, lived in one place in fairy land and all hung out, and now they all live in one small town in Maine"_ thing doesn't do it for me.  I'd be more comfortable with the same story, but with a looser adaptation of who exactly lives in fairie.  And, worse, the evil queen's evil plan to destroy all hope is to send everyone to . . . . Maine?  Never been there, but . . .  Heh, I'm sure they simply meant the mortal world, but, sheesh, it ain't that bad in the real world!


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## Kzach (Oct 31, 2011)

Villano said:


> Yes, but that leads to the 2nd point of my original post:  The woman didn't think it was unusual.




Well yes, but it's her destiny to be clueless for the sake of plot advancement 

Anyway, I have to say I rather enjoyed the second episode. So many twists and turns and cool little moments. Carlisle is brilliant as Mr. Gold. And I totally loved the chainsaw bit


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## Hand of Evil (Oct 31, 2011)

Two shows in on Once Upon a Time and liking it more than Grimm.  While the writing has some holes, the acting is starting to shine.  Plus, there are some interesting twist and turns.  

Grimm, I will watch--it does come on after Chuck.


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## Umbran (Oct 31, 2011)

Villano said:


> Yes, but that leads to the 2nd point of my original post:  The woman didn't think it was unusual.




See below...



> It reminded me of watching a B movie where some teenagers witness a murder or something.  They call the cops, but when they show up, they don't investigate or even listen to what the kids are saying.  Instead, they immediately accuse the kids of using drugs (or doing something else illegal) and threaten to arrest them.
> 
> It's a case of people who don't act like people because you just want to get the plot from point A to point B.




Ignoring the kids and just assuming they're on drugs is, in my experience, well within the realm of "people acting like people."  In the medical profession, there's a saying, which is the moral equivalent of Occam's Razor - "When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras."  If you're a cop, and you have bunch of incoherent kids running around on a weekend night in the woods, claiming to have seen a guy in a hockey mask with a chainsaw, what's more likely?  Really?



> The kid shows up and claims to be her son, kid wants to be driven home, she meets someone who says the kid is crazy, and she wakes in a drunk tank after an accident.  Her reaction isn't to question anything.  She just sort of shrugs and goes along with it.




The kid shows up *on her birthday*.  A birthday she spent catching a sleazebag, and alone.  Then she has a talk with someone who says the kid is crazy.  Then she has a talk with the kid's legal mother, who is kinda creepy and off-putting.  Then she has an accident.

Which all says "overload" to me.

She wakes up in the drunk tank, after an accident, but she's unharmed.  After all that has happened, does a smart person who understands how legal systems and the actual persons of authorities work think that raising a fuss is going to be of any immediate use whatsoever?  

But, overall, she's thought stuff was unusual enough to stick around for a week, even after being threatened....

No, she doesn't react as an "average" person would.  But, an average person would make a lousy story, as they'd just have ignored the, "call to adventure".  This is not a police procedural, and she's not an average person herself.  She's a fairytale, raised in the mundane world.   She's not average.  She's a heroine.  Expect her to act like one.


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## Villano (Oct 31, 2011)

Umbran said:


> Ignoring the kids and just assuming they're on drugs is, in my experience, well within the realm of "people acting like people."  In the medical profession, there's a saying, which is the moral equivalent of Occam's Razor - "When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras."  If you're a cop, and you have bunch of incoherent kids running around on a weekend night in the woods, claiming to have seen a guy in a hockey mask with a chainsaw, what's more likely?  Really?




No, no, I'm talking about movies in which teenagers witness a realistic murder, like someone getting shot.  One movie I saw had teens witness a gang shooting and the cops dismissed the kids and threatened to arrest them (which leaves the kids on their own, trying to escape the gang who want to kill them because they are witnesses).  I mean, what sort of city cop treats the idea of a gang shooting as if it's some sort of fairytale?  That's what I mean by people not acting like people.


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## Banshee16 (Oct 31, 2011)

Dire Bare said:


> I agree with Umbran that the bad guy humming the song was a clue, not the reason why our hero's partner shot him.  Still, he couldn't have just shot him in the leg?  The guy was running away and the cop was in no immediate danger at that point.  These two are made out to be pretty good (as in quality) cops, and that part didn't sit well with me.




Aren't cops trained to shoot for the body?  My brother had a cop take him to the shooting range, and on his first day shooting a gun, ever, he was apparently shooting better than many members of the force (according to the cop).  My understanding is that they shoot for the body, as targeting individual limbs is much more likely to result in a miss.

Banshee


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## Banshee16 (Oct 31, 2011)

Villano said:


> No, no, I'm talking about movies in which teenagers witness a realistic murder, like someone getting shot.  One movie I saw had teens witness a gang shooting and the cops dismissed the kids and threatened to arrest them (which leaves the kids on their own, trying to escape the gang who want to kill them because they are witnesses).  I mean, what sort of city cop treats the idea of a gang shooting as if it's some sort of fairytale?  That's what I mean by people not acting like people.




Cops do unreasonable things all the time.

When I was in high school, grade 11, we took a class trip to New York City.  In that trip, I was with some friends, and I can't even remember where we were, but we took a walk to go to a Swatch store a few blocks away from our hotel room, shortly before dark.  We were 17 at the time and felt we were immortal.  Anyways, one of my friends (there were 4 of us) got mugged in an alley, and I ran for help.  I found a police officer, told him what was going on, and he *told me to get lost, and we shouldn't be out this close to night anyways.  Get out of here or you'll be arrested".  I mean, he was a cop.  We were kids, in a strange city.  You'd think we'd have gotten help, after telling him our friend was getting mugged, but....no.

Luckily, our friend wasn't hurt, aside from being robbed.

I've never had the desire to visit that city again.

I don't find it so unbelievable that cops would not believe teenagers, and act in what is (to me, as an adult) an irresponsible and reckless manner.

I had another friend who attempted suicide, and when 911 was called and the cops showed up, they pointed out the correct veins to cut if she wanted to succeed next time.

Banshee


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## Dire Bare (Oct 31, 2011)

Banshee16 said:


> Cops do unreasonable things all the time.
> 
> When I was in high school, grade 11, we took a class trip to New York City.  In that trip, I was with some friends, and I can't even remember where we were, but we took a walk to go to a Swatch store a few blocks away from our hotel room, shortly before dark.  We were 17 at the time and felt we were immortal.  Anyways, one of my friends (there were 4 of us) got mugged in an alley, and I ran for help.  I found a police officer, told him what was going on, and he *told me to get lost, and we shouldn't be out this close to night anyways.  Get out of here or you'll be arrested".  I mean, he was a cop.  We were kids, in a strange city.  You'd think we'd have gotten help, after telling him our friend was getting mugged, but....no.
> 
> ...




Yeah, cops, and other folks, do "odd" things all the time.  Human and all.  No offense to anyone posting, but I really think the _"they aren't acting like REAL people"_ complaint is more often truly, _"they aren't acting like I THINK I would act in a similar situation, from the comfort of my living room couch and never having been in such a situation before"_.


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## Villano (Oct 31, 2011)

Dire Bare said:


> Yeah, cops, and other folks, do "odd" things all the time.  Human and all.  No offense to anyone posting, but I really think the _"they aren't acting like REAL people"_ complaint is more often truly, _"they aren't acting like I THINK I would act in a similar situation, from the comfort of my living room couch and never having been in such a situation before"_.




I'm not a cop...but I was in an accident* and woke up in a hospital.  Trust me, I would have been _really_ pissed if I woke up in a jail cell. 

*For the record, it wasn't a car accident, but a fall.  I ended up with a concussion and some nerve damage, so I know how bad getting knocked unconscious can be.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 1, 2011)

Currently I would say _Once Upon a Time_ is the winner.


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## Mark CMG (Nov 4, 2011)

The second episode of Once Upon a Time impressed me.  The second episode of Grimm comes on tonight.  I agree that it has an X-Files feel: monster of the week, potential for main character story arcs, etc.  We'll see if it gets some momentum.  One problem I am seeing is the Murder She Wrote condition, in that he's not set up currently to travel around a large enough area to keep us from wondering about the concentration of odd events and such.


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## Kzach (Nov 4, 2011)

Mark CMG said:


> One problem I am seeing is the Murder She Wrote condition, in that he's not set up currently to travel around a large enough area to keep us from wondering about the concentration of odd events and such.




I had the same thought but I think the whole 'Grimm' thing isn't a bloodline or family thing as much as it is a mystical "you're the chosen one" and that Grimm's are a lot more prevalent in the world than just one, in one area, therefore Grimm is a moniker for all hunters like him with the gift of monster-sight.

If that's the case then it's not that monsters are concentrated in one area, it's that they're all over the place and this just happens to be the story of how one of the Grimm's deals with them.


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## Dire Bare (Nov 4, 2011)

Kzach said:


> I had the same thought but I think the whole 'Grimm' thing isn't a bloodline or family thing as much as it is a mystical "you're the chosen one" and that Grimm's are a lot more prevalent in the world than just one, in one area, therefore Grimm is a moniker for all hunters like him with the gift of monster-sight.
> 
> If that's the case then it's not that monsters are concentrated in one area, it's that they're all over the place and this just happens to be the story of how one of the Grimm's deals with them.




The first episode made it pretty clear that being a Grimm IS a family thing.  But like many families that are centuries old, the family tree has gotten quite large and you can find other Grimms out there . . . distant cousins, so to speak.


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## Mark CMG (Nov 4, 2011)

Mark CMG said:


> One problem I am seeing is the Murder She Wrote condition, in that he's not set up currently to travel around a large enough area to keep us from wondering about the concentration of odd events and such.





To clarify, it doesn't matter how many Grimms there are . . . if this one particular Grimm stays tied to this one locale, and if the show follows only this one particular Grimm, then it becomes problematic in that they will have to have a heavy concentration of odd events in this one locale.


Along the same lines with Dexter, I'm beginning to wonder at the number of serial killers that frequent, reside, and go missing in the Miami area.


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## Kzach (Nov 5, 2011)

So, the monster of the week was Yogi Bear.


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## Umbran (Nov 5, 2011)

Mark CMG said:


> To clarify, it doesn't matter how many Grimms there are . . . if this one particular Grimm stays tied to this one locale, and if the show follows only this one particular Grimm, then it becomes problematic in that they will have to have a heavy concentration of odd events in this one locale.




It is a risk, yes.  However,there can be some managing that risk - the primary way is to make it so that a goodly chunk of the events look mundane from the outside.

I haven't watched the second episode yet, but the first stands as an example - the events look like a common kidnapping, that the cops probably would not have solved alone.  And there's lots of those in the mundane world.


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## Mark CMG (Nov 5, 2011)

Umbran said:


> It is a risk, yes.  However,there can be some managing that risk - the primary way is to make it so that a goodly chunk of the events look mundane from the outside.
> 
> I haven't watched the second episode yet, but the first stands as an example - the events look like a common kidnapping, that the cops probably would not have solved alone.  And there's lots of those in the mundane world.





Maybe but even if they manage things as regular crimes of murder and kidnapping without any supernatural effects evident to the general public, that's going to be a whole lot of murder and kidnapping handled by one cop in a single year, year after year.  That wouldn't go unnoticed by press and public.  That would be true even for the largest of cities.  Something like the X-Files covered the whole country, and sometimes outside the country, so it doesn't have that same saturation problem.


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## Umbran (Nov 5, 2011)

Mark CMG said:


> Maybe but even if they manage things as regular crimes of murder and kidnapping without any supernatural effects evident to the general public, that's going to be a whole lot of murder and kidnapping handled by one cop in a single year, year after year.




Ah.  I think that problem is shared by pretty much every police procedural and mystery show ever made.  It isn't like Columbo handled a sane number of cases, right?  And X-Files may have made the issue a little less obvious, but really, on average those agents opened, investigated, and closed a case every other week for years!  That's not realistic either.  Even with a Deputy Director on their side, someone would have noticed.

The same is true, I think, throughout TV-Land.  Characters on weekly serials of any genre have an inane amount of action in their lives.  It is an artifact of the serial medium, and I just accept it because if I insist they be realistic, I lose the good parts of the show.

Heck, my RPG characters have more than reasonable amounts of action in their lives.  Why should seeing the same on a TV show bother me?


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## Mark CMG (Nov 5, 2011)

Umbran said:


> Ah.  I think that problem is shared by pretty much every police procedural and mystery show ever made.  It isn't like Columbo handled a sane number of cases, right?  And X-Files may have made the issue a little less obvious, but really, on average those agents opened, investigated, and closed a case every other week for years!  That's not realistic either.  Even with a Deputy Director on their side, someone would have noticed.
> 
> The same is true, I think, throughout TV-Land.  Characters on weekly serials of any genre have an inane amount of action in their lives.  It is an artifact of the serial medium, and I just accept it because if I insist they be realistic, I lose the good parts of the show.





Columbo averaged a handful of cases per year in Los Angeles, one of the largest population centers in the USA.  Most X-Files cases weren't closed, from what I understand, but were left as unsolved.  Either premise seems more easily acceptable to me than, as I mention above, what the saturation level of serial killers in Dexter's Miami is becoming.   Some shows manage it well and others not so well.  The set up for Grimm makes it difficult to expect that they will have an easy time managing it.  I like the show so far from the standpoint of casting and acting and weirdness but I would prefer they had a better premise in regard to this one point.




Umbran said:


> Heck, my RPG characters have more than reasonable amounts of action in their lives.  Why should seeing the same on a TV show bother me?





Because not everything in our lives is gauged by that metric?


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## Dragonblade (Nov 5, 2011)

Banshee16 said:


> Aren't cops trained to shoot for the body?  My brother had a cop take him to the shooting range, and on his first day shooting a gun, ever, he was apparently shooting better than many members of the force (according to the cop).  My understanding is that they shoot for the body, as targeting individual limbs is much more likely to result in a miss.
> 
> Banshee




This is correct. My sister is a cop in Portland where I live. And where Grimm is filmed and takes place. 

Shooting someone in the leg, or shooting their gun out of their hand is Hollywood BS. Cops are always trained to shoot center mass. In an actual shooting there is way too much adrenaline and chaos all around. Trying to be some kind of cowboy will get you or an innocent bystander killed.

So far I like Grimm. Its not rock solid, but its just starting out so I'll give it some time. Right now its kind of freak of the week, but sometimes that takes a season or so to grow out of. They are already laying down nuggets for longer story arcs. 

Portland is a good setting for it, though. There is a curious mix of modern and old in Portland. There are older neighborhoods with spooky hundred plus year old houses. But there are modern newer suburbs as well.

With a one to two hour drive you can be deep in the middle of ancient primeval wildnerness as well. Much of the Mt. Hood national forest comes to mind. Plus out on the Oregon coast, you get the same vibe. Even in the summer the coast is pretty cold, so its not all resort-ified like say a beach in Southern California. In the winter, its easy to find a lonely desolate stretch of beach and walk for miles without seeing another soul. The salt bleached driftwood, and cold misty air and fog, especially during the mornings, adds to the primeval beauty, and gives a certain eerie feeling as well. There are even old light houses and such to add to the feel.

We played the Dresden Files RPG a few months back and we used Portland as our city. And not just because we live in Portland, but because the city in general is a perfect fit for something like Grimm or Dresden Files. Its just a vibe the city has.


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## Umbran (Nov 5, 2011)

Mark CMG said:


> Columbo averaged a handful of cases per year in Los Angeles, one of the largest population centers in the USA.




He, personally, accounted for about 7 cases per year in his initial 1970s run.  That is, as I understand it, quite a lot of murders for one man to handle, even in LA.  

But, if you don't like Columbo as an example, take any of the modern procedurals (there are a bunch of them), and they're running close to a case every other week, if averaged over the year.  



> Most X-Files cases weren't closed, from what I understand, but were left as unsolved.




Unsolved and closed are not mutually exclusive, as I understand it.  Closed is, "Nobody is going to look at this again."  As opposed to a cold case, which is still open and up for further investigation, but with no further known leads, so that you have to wait for something to fall into your lap.

My understanding, of course, may be somewhat short of the facts.



> Because not everything in our lives is gauged by that metric?




Not everything is exactly the same, sure.  But the show and my game are similar beasts - both heroic fictions.  To first approximation, I'd expect them to have similar metrics.  

To each his own, of course.  I just figure that if I'm gonna buy into supernatural critters, this isn't a major thing to break suspension of disbelief.


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## Mark CMG (Nov 6, 2011)

Umbran said:


> (snip)





Bothers me, doesn't bother you.  Got it.


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## KiloGex (Nov 6, 2011)

Grimm lost me nearly from the very beginning:  The setup took way too long, the characters aren't strong, and the acting isn't all that great.  I am a fan of the idea behind it, but overall the execution isn't good enough.

On the other hand, I love the story of Once Upon a Time; the characters are great and work well together, while the writing and progression of the episodes is working well.  Granted, the series does seem to have a finality to it in terms of it's production length, however I don't see that as a bad thing.  Knowing that a series is going to run 4 or 6 seasons and then conclude has worked in England forever, so why not take it up on this side, as well.


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## Jack7 (Nov 6, 2011)

After hearing about the show I recorded and  watched two episodes of _Grimm_ this weekend. I like the show, but to me  it feels far less like the _X-Files_ than it does _Millennium_,  which I liked a lot.

I haven't seen _Once Upon a Time_ yet, but,  I'm recording that too. To watch later.


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## Felon (Nov 6, 2011)

The shows are still in their infancy. They have to spend a lot of energy establishing their their premsise, their cast of characters, and their rules. So, in a sense, it's too early to judge. They both did well enough in the ratings that we'll likely get 13 episodes out of them even if there's a big dropoff.

But, it's fun to judge and criticize things, so...

Grimm is a by-the-numbers "chosen one" story delivered without much sense of personality--and this is the sort of show that really needs a strong personality. It's not especially dark or clever or funny, so I have no idea what it's going for. Shows like Buffy, Trueblood, and Supernatural have raised the bar higher than this. I mean, fiction about mythical creatures in modern settings is pretty much at a postmodern state. I hope it has higher ambitions than monster-of-the-week.

Once Upon a Time has a stronger style. Of course, that style is kind of a schmaltzy love-conquers-all sort of vibe, so Grimm may wind up being up my alley in the long run. I think this show will be made or broken by how much it develops its ensemble cast of characters, sort of like Lost did.


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## Kzach (Nov 6, 2011)

KiloGex said:


> Grimm lost me nearly from the very beginning:  The setup took way too long, the characters aren't strong, and the acting isn't all that great.  I am a fan of the idea behind it, but overall the execution isn't good enough.






Felon said:


> Grimm is a by-the-numbers "chosen one" story delivered without much sense of personality--and this is the sort of show that really needs a strong personality. It's not especially dark or clever or funny, so I have no idea what it's going for. Shows like Buffy, Trueblood, and Supernatural have raised the bar higher than this. I mean, fiction about mythical creatures in modern settings is pretty much at a postmodern state. I hope it has higher ambitions than monster-of-the-week.
> 
> Once Upon a Time has a stronger style. Of course, that style is kind of a schmaltzy love-conquers-all sort of vibe, so Grimm may wind up being up my alley in the long run. I think this show will be made or broken by how much it develops its ensemble cast of characters, sort of like Lost did.




I've said all this already.

With the exception of the 'schmaltzy' comment. You did notice the bit where she stabbed her father to death, right?


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## Fast Learner (Nov 6, 2011)

After two episodes of each I'm in pretty close to the "neither" camp.

_Grimm's_ pro is a potentially interesting world that could include some pretty neat concepts. Its cons includes lousy writing, poor directing, and an obviously low budget.

_Once Upon a Time's_ pros include good writing, acting, and directing, and an obviously big budget. Its cons include a Lost-like storyline where season after season will require there to be no resolution to the curse. That and the fact that I find it surprisingly uninteresting.

I'll still give both a couple more episodes but am surprisingly underwhelmed, especially for someone who should like this kind of show.


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## Felon (Nov 6, 2011)

Kzach said:


> I've said all this already.



I haven't read all four pages worth of comments, but I tend to doubt that anyone posted something akin to "and here's Felon's take on these shows!", as that would be presumptuous. You may have offered your own assessment, and you may find our opinions to be in agreement, but unless I've mimicked your comments verbatim, what of it? Do you think that once you've posted your thoughts, that pre-empts others from posting any similar sentiments?


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## Kzach (Nov 6, 2011)

Felon said:


> Do you think that once you've posted your thoughts, that pre-empts others from posting any similar sentiments?




Pretty much.


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## Janx (Nov 6, 2011)

Kzach said:


> Pretty much.




That's pretty rude.  Especially on a public forum where everyone is welcome to discuss.

I would also think that seeing other people post similar thoughts REINFORCES your point.  What better way to stoke your ego than to see that other people said the same thing and YOU said it FIRST.

Otherwise, when it's just the kzach show, it's just kzach.  And you might as well not hit the submit button.


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## Kzach (Nov 7, 2011)

Janx said:


> And you might as well not hit the submit button.




Where would the fun be in that?


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## Felon (Nov 7, 2011)

Kzach said:


> Pretty much.



Then I concede you this: at such a time when you are granted the authority that you feel entitled to, then that will surely be a fine day. Be sure to drop me a line so I may prove accomodating. In the meantime, you'll simply have to suffer that sometimes others will freely voice sentiments that are in concert with yours, and to your remark of "I've already said that" they will say "well, you didn't say that on my behalf". And for my part I will personally toss something along the lines of "nor did you express that opinion with the distinctive wit, insight, and panache that I provide in spades".



Janx said:


> That's pretty rude.  Especially on a public forum where everyone is welcome to discuss.
> 
> I would also think that seeing other people post similar thoughts REINFORCES your point.  What better way to stoke your ego than to see that other people said the same thing and YOU said it FIRST.



Well, there are those on the internet who only seek adversaries, not allies. Then again, Kzach recently XP'ed for me in another thread for adopting a similar stance on a topic, so I suppose affability is tolerted at least on occasion.


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## Kzach (Nov 7, 2011)

Felon said:


> And for my part I will personally toss something along the lines of "nor did you express that opinion with the distinctive wit, insight, and panache that I provide in spades".



So... what you're saying is... that I'm a witless, ignoramus who lacks style?



Felon said:


> Well, there are those on the internet who only seek adversaries, not allies. Then again, Kzach recently XP'ed for me in another thread for adopting a similar stance on a topic, so I suppose affability is tolerted at least on occasion.



Complex, aren't I.


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## Jack7 (Nov 7, 2011)

I recorded and watched two episodes of Once Upon a Time.

Once Upon a Time seems more like Lost, or like it is trying to be Lost-like.

Grimm seems to me a sort of cross between Millennium and Brimstone.


To me Once Upon a Time is more of a show geared towards women, and Grimm more towards men. That's my best personal assessment, OUAT is sort of like a Lost for women.

I'll tape a couple of more episodes going forward, and don't think of it as either/or, but suspect Grimm will interest me more.


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## Kzach (Nov 7, 2011)

Jack7 said:


> To me Once Upon a Time is more of a show geared towards women, and Grimm more towards men. That's my best personal assessment, OUAT is sort of like a Lost for women.




Somewhere, in the deep, dark recesses of my psyche, I've always known that I was misunderstood.


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## Plane Sailing (Nov 7, 2011)

Kzach said:


> So... what you're saying is... that I'm a witless, ignoramus who lacks style?




More like this: you are acting like a jerk, so I'm booting you from this thread.


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## Plane Sailing (Nov 7, 2011)

Dragonblade said:


> Portland is a good setting for it, though. There is a curious mix of modern and old in Portland. There are older neighborhoods with spooky hundred plus year old houses. But there are modern newer suburbs as well.
> 
> With a one to two hour drive you can be deep in the middle of ancient primeval wildnerness as well. Much of the Mt. Hood national forest comes to mind. Plus out on the Oregon coast, you get the same vibe. Even in the summer the coast is pretty cold, so its not all resort-ified like say a beach in Southern California. In the winter, its easy to find a lonely desolate stretch of beach and walk for miles without seeing another soul. The salt bleached driftwood, and cold misty air and fog, especially during the mornings, adds to the primeval beauty, and gives a certain eerie feeling as well. There are even old light houses and such to add to the feel.
> 
> We played the Dresden Files RPG a few months back and we used Portland as our city. And not just because we live in Portland, but because the city in general is a perfect fit for something like Grimm or Dresden Files. Its just a vibe the city has.




You ought to work for the local tourist board - you make it sound like a wonderful place to visit!


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 7, 2011)

Plane Sailing said:


> You ought to work for the local tourist board - you make it sound like a wonderful place to visit!



Just don't wear anything red.


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## catsclaw227 (Nov 9, 2011)

I've seen Once Upon a Time, and Grimm is in my Hulu queue for viewing, but I have to say that I really like OUaT.

Someone before asked about Maine...  I wonder if Stephen King or Castle Rock has a financial stake in this.  He is an avid fan of old school mysteries and betrayals, which the fairy tale stories have in spades.

I'll give my opinions about Grimm once I get in about 2-3 episodes.


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## Mark CMG (Nov 15, 2011)

I'm wondering if Once Upon a Time is becoming a bit too convoluted.  While at the same time, I see Grimm covering the things I had misgivings about.  Still, both are continuing to be very watchable.


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## Jack7 (Nov 15, 2011)

Sometimes *Grimm* reminds me of *Brimstone*, and sometimes of *Kolchak the Night Stalker.* Either way I like it.

I also really like the Blutbad. He makes a good street level informer/informal-undercover field partner. Plus he's funny to me.

I told my wife the first time I saw the show, if the Grimm doesn't employ that guy as a partner, gain his confidence, and run him as a paid agent, he's freaking crazy.

The guy's a potential goldmine.


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## Mark CMG (Dec 12, 2011)

I'm still enjoying both and am seeing good development in each, and in such strikingly differing ways that I think this thread was ill conceived!


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## NewJeffCT (Dec 12, 2011)

Mark CMG said:


> I'm still enjoying both and am seeing good development in each, and in such strikingly differing ways that I think this thread was ill conceived!




Once Upon A Time has been getting pretty good - saw the end coming tonight, but it was still tough to see.

Haven't been able to watch Grimm much at all yet.


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## Fast Learner (Dec 12, 2011)

Week before last's episode of Once Upon a Time, with the mine collapse, was _terrible_. The writing and directing were bad, and the characters' choices were repeatedly downright stupid. Other than that it's been pretty good.

I like the Grimm world, but I'm not sure I like the show, which is a bit strange.


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