# Bard Versatile Performance



## pawsplay (Jan 16, 2010)

I have decided, I just don't like the bard's versatile performance ability. It causes a bard played from 1st level to look, most likely, different than one that springs to life at 10th. It brings up all sorts of hard to adjudicate questions about skill bonuses (can you use an item that increases Bluff, or do you need one that increases Perform?). It doesn't seem to really explain how or why this skill replaces the normal skills. Finally, it kind of straightjackets bards into being multi-performers, whereas many bard concepts seem like they would center around just two or three Perform skills. 

Although it's dreadfully boring, I wonder why the bard didn't just get skill bonuses similar to a fighter's weapon bonuses.


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## Nikosandros (Jan 16, 2010)

I also dislike versatile performance and I got rid of it. What I did was to raise the skill points to 8 and give bards one rank in the perform skill for free at each level; I also reverted to the 3.0 rules for perform, I was never very happy with the 3.5 revision and in Pathfinder, there is but a single bard power that distinguishes between different kinds of perform.


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## Sigurd (Jan 16, 2010)

This was talked about on the Paizo boards. I expect it may get a clarification at some stage.

James interpreted it pretty generously. The skill being used is the bard skill. Circumstantial bonuses still work. He even thought there should be some way for the bard to redeploy any overlapping skill points ie if you had to put some points in a skill that is now covered by Vers Perf you should be able to move those points.

I agree that the system is a little awkward but it makes the perform skills much more important and it is a sort of time released maturing bonus.

I think the design goal is not so much the skills the versatile performance covers but bringing value to the performance skills which are otherwise sort of 'meh'. Any solution should say 'bard' and not rogue.


Sigurd


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## James Jacobs (Jan 17, 2010)

Versatile Performance's design goal was to give bards more skill points without artificially increasing their total skill points AND to put an emphasis onto the Perform skill for them after the Perform skill's importance regarding bardic performance lessened from its importance in 3.5's version.

The result isn't perfect, alas. And it's something that I very much would like to see addressed in FAQs or errata or, most likely, in the upcoming Advanced Player's Guide.

The two basic elements: bards should be able to "reschedule" their skill ranks in skills that Versatile Performance duplicates every time the gain a new Versatile Performance; this allows a bard to be good at, say, Fly and Acrobatics until he gets Versatile Performance (dance), and once he DOES get that, lets him reapply skill points previously spent on Fly and Acrobatics to other skills. This'd work similarly to how sorcerers get to repick spells periodically.

The other element is that when you use Versatile Performance to use a Perform skill for another skill, bonuses you'd get to that other skill from things like Skill Focus or other Feats, racial modifiers, magic items, and the like SHOULD apply to your Perform skill check when you're using it for those particular versatile skills. In effect, Versatile Performance gives you a pair of "phantom skills" with the corresponding "phantom skill points" each time you gain it.

If instead you want to just kill the Versatile Performance ability entirely, my suggested fix would be instead to increase the base skill ranks per level granted to bards by 2 each time they would normally gain Versatile Performance. These skill rank increases should probably be retroactive.

ANYway. It's something that I might call a personal crusade to get fixed. Might be a while before it sees print, but them's my thoughts, anyway.


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## pawsplay (Jan 17, 2010)

James Jacobs said:


> The two basic elements: bards should be able to "reschedule" their skill ranks in skills that Versatile Performance duplicates every time the gain a new Versatile Performance; this allows a bard to be good at, say, Fly and Acrobatics until he gets Versatile Performance (dance), and once he DOES get that, lets him reapply skill points previously spent on Fly and Acrobatics to other skills. This'd work similarly to how sorcerers get to repick spells periodically.




I think that's a given.



> The other element is that when you use Versatile Performance to use a Perform skill for another skill, bonuses you'd get to that other skill from things like Skill Focus or other Feats, racial modifiers, magic items, and the like SHOULD apply to your Perform skill check when you're using it for those particular versatile skills.




If you could use any and all bonuses together, within the normal stacking rules, that would be a nice bonus for the bard, although there are probably unholy combinations I haven't considered.  And there is something a little weird about using Charisma to modify an Acrobatics check.

My personal inclination is to turn Versatile Performance into "get five extra skill ranks that must go into Perform skills." Additionally, a bard might gain +1 to any Perform check if they have just made a successful Perform check with a different speciality, the bonus increasing +1 every five levels or so. Or something like that. 

In any case, the Perform skill is too resource intensive at this point, is the basic problem.


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## Maidhc O Casain (Jan 18, 2010)

Maybe in the same way spells are too resource intensive for wizards?


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## pawsplay (Jan 18, 2010)

Mowgli said:


> Maybe in the same way spells are too resource intensive for wizards?




Spells do stuff. There isn't a whole of difference between a flute-playing bard, a lute-playing bard, and a bard who plays both flute and flute, yet they also cost a substantial number of skill ranks.


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## Maidhc O Casain (Jan 18, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> Spells do stuff. There isn't a whole of difference between a flute-playing bard, a lute-playing bard, and a bard who plays both flute and flute, yet they also cost a substantial number of skill ranks.




Right, but with James' statement regarding the intent (re-allocate skill points once the bard gets a Performance to cover them) the Perform skills do stuff too - give the Bard the ability to be the Skill Monkey he truly should be.


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## Mark Chance (Jan 18, 2010)

Wouldn't it be easier for Versatile Performance to just give bards bonus skill points applied to the relevant skills? So, at 2nd level, a bard that applies Verastile Performance to Perform (act) would get a bonus skill point applied to both Bluff and Disguise.


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## pawsplay (Jan 18, 2010)

Mark Chance said:


> Wouldn't it be easier for Versatile Performance to just give bards bonus skill points applied to the relevant skills? So, at 2nd level, a bard that applies Verastile Performance to Perform (act) would get a bonus skill point applied to both Bluff and Disguise.




Interesting idea... Fantasy Craft uses this mechanic in spots.


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## pawsplay (Jan 18, 2010)

Mowgli said:


> Right, but with James' statement regarding the intent (re-allocate skill points once the bard gets a Performance to cover them) the Perform skills do stuff too - give the Bard the ability to be the Skill Monkey he truly should be.




It's a generous subsidy and it's probably workable. I guess my objection is a philosophical one... if the Perform skills need to be subsidized to be attractive to bards, maybe they aren't designed properly.


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## Sigurd (Jan 18, 2010)

I think the problem is that you have to get over the idea that playing the piano helps with diplomacy. Or that nobody is going to notice you Sing whenever you're trying to bluff.


These problems are logical but they're not entirely fair. Bards have magic and it has its own rules. As stated, the bard is not actually playing the piano while he tries his diplomacy or singing. Instead something of his great magic experience doing these things have taught him\her something of human nature that is transcendent.

The mechanics work too, if you use them the way James has mentionned. I think the description needs refocusing.


Sigurd

Who will give this more thought.


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## Sigurd (Jan 18, 2010)

*Fix - the Transcendent Chord*

The Transcendent Chord

Bards of great skill level and performance ability reach a mystical place that teaches them deeper meanings, gives them great confidence and helps them master skills easily. These understandings happen with different performance types and grant instant skill bonuses. Bards may not share these teachings as they are a private interaction between themselves and living performance.

These insights allow the bard to reassign their skill points in certain skills and even use the same rank total for companion skills. A bard's level in an enlightened skill is raised to their total level of that particular performance type.


So the idea is that performance leads to a state of meditation that enlightens the Bard. If they have a better performance rank they reach a higher state of enlightenment. Using the modified skills is more akin to recalling that state of enlightenment. The notes of this chord are the skills that it affects.

I don't think there is very much wrong with the mechanics of the ability and I think its much more fun than just getting a few more skill points. 

If you like use something like "chord triad". A bard may treat the total number of ranks in each of of the linked skills as his\her total for any one skill so long as she does not exceed her class level. So a 3rd level character with 2 sing, 1 bluff, and 1 sense motive could use a skill rank of 3 for any of those skills. At fourth level that would become 4 without any further investment. The bard would still have to trigger the progression and skill choice from versatile performance.



James - If you use any of this I'd appreciate you changing my alias description on the Pathfinder boards (also Sigurd) to 'contributor' or 'not full of crap' or something.


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## James Jacobs (Jan 19, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> Spells do stuff. There isn't a whole of difference between a flute-playing bard, a lute-playing bard, and a bard who plays both flute and flute, yet they also cost a substantial number of skill ranks.




Eventually, I really hope there will be. And I suspect the APG will start building upon making these differences different. Frankly, I would have LOVED to see each Perform skill get its own suite of abilities associated with it for the bard, like how the sorcerer got a bunch of bloodlines. But alas... bards aren't popular enough to justify giving them that much room in the book. (I'm just a LITTLE bitter about that... ;-))


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## Guillaume (Jan 19, 2010)

James Jacobs said:


> Eventually, I really hope there will be. And I suspect the APG will start building upon making these differences different. Frankly, I would have LOVED to see each Perform skill get its own suite of abilities associated with it for the bard, like how the sorcerer got a bunch of bloodlines. But alas... bards aren't popular enough to justify giving them that much room in the book. (I'm just a LITTLE bitter about that... ;-))




That is sad, as bards are one of my favourite class. I've played a few of them (I won't say alot as I am generally a DM). I'll hold out hope that you guys can get this idea to fruition.


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## Mark Chance (Jan 19, 2010)

I've mulled over the Versatile Performance problem. While mulling, I was reminded of the words of Ludwig von Beethoven.

*Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy.*

The bard, through his study of music and other entertaining arts, gradually arrives at deeper, intuitive understanding of certain things. This almost mystical understanding manifests itself through the bard's Versatile Performance class feature. Note that Versatile Performance doesn't mean a bard is using Perform to actually do the skill. For example, a bard with Versatile Performance for Perform (keyboard instruments) isn't actually more diplomatic or intimidating because he's playing a piano. Rather, his bardic understanding of the metaphysics of keyboard music makes him more diplomatic and more intimidating.

*A New Type of Versatile Performance (Ex)*
At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill. At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the bard can select an additional type of Perform to substitute. Each type of Perform skill has two other skills associated with it: Act (Bluff, Disguise), Comedy (Bluff, Intimidate), Dance (Acrobatics, Fly), Keyboard Instruments (Diplomacy, Intimidate), Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive), Percussion (Handle Animal, Intimidate), Sing (Bluff, Sense Motive), String (Bluff, Diplomacy), and Wind (Diplomacy, Handle Animal).

The first time one of these skills is affected by Versatile Performance, the bard gains a bonus skill point for those skills only. For example, at 2nd level, a bard chooses Oratory as his Versatile Performance. He gains 1 bonus skill point in Diplomacy and 1 bonus skill point in Sense Motive.

Every subsequent selection of Versatile Performance only awards a bonus skill point if that particular associated skill has not already received a bonus skill point. Otherwise, the bard receives a +2 insight bonus with the skill. For example, at 6th level, our bard chooses Sing as his second Versatile Performance. He receives 1 bonus skill point in Bluff since this is the first time it has been an associated skill for Versatile Performance. He receives a +2 insight bonus to Diplomacy since it's already received a bonus skill point.

The third and greater times a skill is associated with Versatile Performance, the insight bonus increases by +2. For example, at 6th level, our bard chooses Keyboard Instruments for his next Versatile Performance. He gains 1 bonus skill point in Intimidate. His insight bonus to Diplomacy increases to +4.

Is this a good start to "fixing" Versatile Performance? If not, why not? What're your ideas and suggestions?


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## ruemere (Jan 19, 2010)

Mark,

your solution is a little too complicated. At least, in my opinion.



> In essence, Versatile Performance is about gaining _two virtual max ranked class skills_ at 2nd level, and another pair at 6th, 10th, 14th and 18th.
> 
> These _virtual max ranked class skills_ are one of the following pairs:
> - Bluff + Disguise
> ...




Explanation of terms:
- virtual skill - just like virtual feat, this is a free skill, usable as long as the prerequisites are met.
- max ranked class skill - the rating of the skill is equal to current total character level + 3. It's hard to imagine a Bard not having a maximum in his (or her) Perform skill... of course, one would argue that splitting skill points among various Perform skills would prevent it from being at maximum, however it's unlikely for a Bard to choose suboptimal pair. Besides... do we really need associated accounting (N Perform skills means N possible pairs of virtual skills).

Regards,
Ruemere

PS. Personally, I consider this class ability to be pretty awkward and rank it as even less appealing as Ranger virtual feats. I would simply go with free Skill Focus feat every four levels applicable to any Dexterity or Charisma based skill and be done with that. Life is too short and roleplaying is too good to be spent on number juggling while you could be hunting dragons in dungeons.


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## Nikosandros (Jan 20, 2010)

James Jacobs said:


> without artificially increasing their total skill points



What's artificial about raising skill points? It seems much smoother than the extremely convoluted rules that you propose.


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## ruemere (Jan 20, 2010)

Nikosandros said:


> What's artificial about raising skill points? It seems much smoother than the extremely convoluted rules that you propose.




The argument in BETA test days was that raising skill points would negatively affect backward compatibility. On the other hand, we still have revised Favored Class rules (and potential additional 1 skill point / level).

Regards,
Ruemere


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## pawsplay (Jan 20, 2010)

ruemere said:


> The argument in BETA test days was that raising skill points would negatively affect backward compatibility. On the other hand, we still have revised Favored Class rules (and potential additional 1 skill point / level).
> 
> Regards,
> Ruemere




That's not a compatability problem, that's an accounting problem. Who cares how many skills ranks some NPC has?


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## ruemere (Jan 20, 2010)

Precisely. Even better: the skill list was changed, and so the old values became somewhat inaccurate.

IMHO, bumping all classes with 2 skill points/level to 4, making Intelligence skill point bonus one-time thing instead per level and introducing Well-Educated feat (see below) would do wonders for those who want to play more skilled characters.

Explanations follow:
- 4 skill points per level is sufficient to build moderately skilled character of any level
- Intelligence bonus being a fixed, one-time bonus would allow to quickly adjudicate total number of skill points, make quick adjustments for use of items improving Intelligence score (instead of rather awkward built-in skill stuff)
- (the above, continued) Wizards and other Intelligence based characters would stop lording over skill-oriented classes (Bards, Rogues)

Well-Educated
Prerequisites: Character must have spent several years in institution providing thorough education. Must be taken at 1st level.
Benefit: Gain 4 skill points. Gain one more skill point at 2nd level and every level thereafter.

Regards,
Ruemere


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## Maidhc O Casain (Jan 21, 2010)

James Jacobs said:


> Eventually, I really hope there will be. And I suspect the APG will start building upon making these differences different. Frankly, I would have LOVED to see each Perform skill get its own suite of abilities associated with it for the bard, like how the sorcerer got a bunch of bloodlines. But alas... bards aren't popular enough to justify giving them that much room in the book. (I'm just a LITTLE bitter about that... ;-))




Well, the Sorcerer became a much more popular choice with the new bloodline rules - at least in the groups I run with. Perhaps if the Bard were given similar treatment the same would happen . . .

I _love_ the idea of making the perform skills more like the Sorcerer bloodlines - in function, not flavor of course. Rather than lumping them in with the skills, give each one a little space like the bloodlines and make them unique!


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## Mark Chance (Jan 21, 2010)

Since the bard's iconic ability is his music, I think his abilities should be themed that way. Perhaps musical terms could provide inspiration. For example, a bard using (embodying?) Adagio could cause peaceful feelings or maybe _slow_ a target (including himself via _feather fall_). Another bard with Nocturne could induce drowsiness or romantic feelings.

Bards working together could sing in Chorus to increase bardic music effects or could use Encore to restart a lapsed effect.


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## Jhaelen (Jan 21, 2010)

Mark Chance said:


> Since the bard's iconic ability is his music, I think his abilities should be themed that way. Perhaps musical terms could provide inspiration. For example, a bard using (embodying?) Adagio could cause peaceful feelings or maybe _slow_ a target (including himself via _feather fall_). Another bard with Nocturne could induce drowsiness or romantic feelings.



This reminds me of the Paragon class in the Guild Wars CRPG:
They resemble a mix of the 3e D&D Bard and Marshall classes and use 'Shouts', 'Chants', and 'Echoes' that get more powerful the more allies are near them.


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## Nikosandros (Jan 21, 2010)

Mowgli said:


> Well, the Sorcerer became a much more popular choice with the new bloodline rules - at least in the groups I run with. Perhaps if the Bard were given similar treatment the same would happen . . .
> 
> I _love_ the idea of making the perform skills more like the Sorcerer bloodlines - in function, not flavor of course. Rather than lumping them in with the skills, give each one a little space like the bloodlines and make them unique!



I really lie this idea for differentiating bards.


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## ruemere (Jan 21, 2010)

Jhaelen said:


> This reminds me of the Paragon class in the Guild Wars CRPG:
> They resemble a mix of the 3e D&D Bard and Marshall classes and use 'Shouts', 'Chants', and 'Echoes' that get more powerful the more allies are near them.




Heheh. If you ever need help in Guild Wars, whisper to my main (or add me to Friends): Ruemere Of Crimson.

Regards,
Ruemere

PS. To stay on topic: Bard is not necessarily a musician - he's a performer.


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## Mark Chance (Mar 15, 2010)

I'm working on an alternate Versatile Performer class feature that should be ready by Sunday, March 21. I talk a little about it here. I also talk about the Lone Ranger and a few other things, but trust me: There is talk of Versatile Performer at the link.


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## Mark Chance (Mar 17, 2010)

The PDF _Versatile Performance Redux_ entered the final editing stages today. It will be available to _Quid Novi?_ subscribers this Sunday, March 21.

Huzzah!


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## PF_Noob (Nov 23, 2011)

I think I might be dreaming here but did James Jacob actually say that we _should _get refunded for ranks spent in a skill that gets replaced by a Versatile Performance Perform skill?

Edit: Sorry for the thread Necro but I've been trying to find the answer to whether they get refunded cause I swear I saw it somewhere and I may have just found my glimmer of hope.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Nov 24, 2011)

Yes, he did.  And it seems a perfectly reasonable thing to do, otherwise the Bard just sort of gets screwed.

I REALLY REALLY REALLY don't like the sound of his suggested replacement for taking it out of your game, but on the other hand, since when did PF care about obsoleting Rogue anyway?


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## Viktyr Gehrig (Nov 26, 2011)

Frankly, I think Versatile Performance should simply be replaced with the Magician's Expanded Repertoire ACF, to better reflect the Bard's status as a dabbler in magic. The only problem is that nearly every other Archetype *also* replaces Versatile Performance with something.

If you're tired of Intelligence-based casters outshining the dedicated skillmonkeys, you'd be better off by giving those skillmonkey classes some other benefit for improving their Intelligence. Canny Defense and Insightful Strike seem like perfectly reasonable candidates for Rogue talents, and if Ninjas and Mysterious Strangers can use Charisma for ki and grit, why can't Rogues use Intelligence?

That leaves us with Rangers, Inquisitors, and Bards-- all of which are based on other ability scores for good reason. Just bump them up to 8 skill points and call it a day.


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## Erik the Red (Jan 21, 2021)

James Jacobs said:


> Versatile Performance's design goal was to give bards more skill points without artificially increasing their total skill points AND to put an emphasis onto the Perform skill for them after the Perform skill's importance regarding bardic performance lessened from its importance in 3.5's version.
> 
> The result isn't perfect, alas. And it's something that I very much would like to see addressed in FAQs or errata or, most likely, in the upcoming Advanced Player's Guide.
> 
> ...



I know this is an old post, but I haven't seen anything 'newer'. Was this ever resolved by rules? 
I have a bard that has acrobatics with Boots of Elvenkind and by the wording, it does seem that it would work with using Perform (dancing) and +5 with the Boots. Thanks for your knowledge!


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