# Matrix Revolutions SPOILER filled discussion [and my review]



## Kai Lord (Nov 7, 2003)

I think a thread is in order for those who want to discuss Matrix Revolutions without having to deal with four pages of blacked out posts so here it is.

Now for my review.

Short version.  Wonderfully entertaining.  Thumbs up.  Not as good as the original, but much, much better than Reloaded.  Thank goodness.  Overall three out of four stars.

Longer version.

The first 20 or so minutes were "meh" at best.  Clearly just clearing the story of that nasty "Reloaded" residue.  The Train-man chase was utterly ridiculous.  The guy hobbles along as if his shoes were tied together while they repeatedly cut back to the badass Morpheus, Trinity, and Seraph in full sprint _and never gaining on him._  Then the shoot out with the ceiling walkers was the most uninspired gunfight of the series.  I can see how it would have looked good on paper but it was almost yawn inducing on film.  But once they said goodbye to the Merovingian, Neo and Bane woke up and everything stepped up a notch BIG time.

I LOVED the climactic action sequences in Revolutions.  Unlike in Reloaded, they actually had narrative weight and served a real purpose this time around.  The Zion fight was spectacular and was what, _40 minutes_?  Too cool.  Nice to see the W. Bros provide a pay off to all the anticipation of the machines reaching the humans, even if the squiddies did at times seem much more concerned with forming pretty tentacle patterns in the air instead of just swarming over the humans.  But it was a visual marvel and fiercely kinetic.  Chalk up rushing out to replace the ammo in the Power Armors as possibly the worst. job. ever.  

And all I could think about when Niobe was crashing through the mechanical tunnel on their frenzied run to the Zion docks was _this_ was how Lando's attack on the second Death Star should have gone!

And forget Dragon Ball Z (which I've never seen a single episode of) for me the Neo/Smith fight was pure Superman II.  Very cool.  I still wish Neo busted out some of the "fist bouquets" he did in the original but I remember watching that and marveling at how well they pulled off showcasing an "epic kung fu fight."  With a ton of state of the art Superman/Zod-isms.

The actress playing the Oracle actually did a much better job than Gloria Foster, but the explanation for why she changed forms was _very_ clumsy.  At least they addressed it.

The ending was great.  I loved all the anime references.  The swirling squiddies around the power armors and structures on the Zion docks reminded me of the worm ridden "demons" from Princess Mononoke.  And the falling squiddies after the EMP appeared as the many kodama spirits falling from the trees when the Forest Spirit lost its head.

The surface world was very "Nausicaa" what with the collosal beetles spewing their "spore squiddies."  And I really liked Neo's teaming with the "Face" of the machine city.  A great touch that it was made up of many smaller squiddies.

Trinity's death had been spoiled for me, but I didn't know how it was going to happen and would have been very good if her last speech was at most half as long as it was.  As for asking Keanu Reeves to get all weepy and actually _emote_, (through a blindfold no less!) have mercy and make it short!

Bane was cool.  Neo should have _immediately_ recognized that it was Smith but the actor playing Bane was badass.  Really nailed Hugo Weaving's cadence and mannerisms.

The ending was satisfying, and wrapped up the series nicely.  I was surprised that the machines agreed to a truce and would free all the humans, but the way they did it made sense.

I don't get the criticisms about how Neo killed Smith at all.  Of course it was ambiguous, because for all the time the Wachowski Brothers spent trumpeting "belief," and "choice" and the "source", they obviously wanted to play it safe and let each member of the audience fill in the blank as to what the source of Neo's power really was.  Is it God?  Power of the human spirit?  Magic?

In strictly sci-fi terms I think it was pretty obvious he acquired his heightened power at the end from being jacked directly into Machine City, and that was what caught Smith off guard and allowed Neo to merge with and expunge the source of Smith's essence.  All Smith's were connected, so doing it to one did it to all.  It was much less ambiguous than when Neo killed Smith at the end of the first Matrix, but on a scale that ended the war.  Of course a lot of people scratched their heads over the first film, but I wasn't one of them and loved how the series got back to its roots.  Merge with Smith, blow him up.  Lather rinse repeat until he's gone, which Neo did.

I can't say I was in love with the final epilogue.  Had a bit of a "deleted old Sarah Connor at the playground ending of T2" vibe to it.  But even that gets a passing grade (barely.)

Overall Revolutions was just a fun, thrilling conclusion to the saga that showed much more restraint when it needed it than its "predecessor."  I'm impressed.


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## paulewaug (Nov 7, 2003)

Hey Kai Lord!
Thaks for the "short version" I read it real quick and didn't peak at the longer spoiler filled version,  I haven't had a chance to see it yet but once I have I'll come back and see what you had to say in the longer version.

It's funny....I didn't actaully see the first or second one in the theater, is it ironic that I will see only the 3rd one in the theater?!  haha!!


I wasn't crazy about the second one...it was "ok"  but I think too many people have read too much into what is basically just a "sciFi-techno thriller / action movie."


I am kind of looking forward to seeing the 3rd one though and that is more than I can say about the second one...I Only watched it because my sister bought the DVD.  Although I would have likely rented it once I had decided to see the 3rd.


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## Velenne (Nov 7, 2003)

*Short, Spoiler-free Review:*

I agree with Kai in that it was much better than the 2nd movie.  It explained enough, left enough unsaid, and generally didn't treat you like you were too stupid to have understood the first two movies.  

HOWEVER, I thought _Revolutions_ felt much more like a typical action movie than does the series justice.  The characters just felt more...stale?  Trite?  The acting a bit stiffer perhaps?  On occasion, some of them even seemed to break character but perhaps they were experiencing paradigm shifts of one degree or another.  

Ultimately, the movie lacked the "Whoa" of the first movie but made up for the the "Huh?" or "WHY?" of the second.  



*Longer Spoiler/Discussion*



Again, I agree with Kai on the movie's kickoff.  The whole Trainman thing could have been scrapped.  It seemed a contrivance to allow two things to happen (to use the Matrix vernacular): allow Neo to appreciate that machines have feelings too (aww...), and capitalize on the absolute entertainment that was the Merovingean from _Reloaded_.  Great character!  But much as I love him, the whole scenario left a bad taste in my mouth.  Could have been done another way.

The middle of the movie makes up for it in spades, though.  All the character buildup from the 2nd movie takes on meaning and I found myself attached to the imperiled humans of Zion.  Yes the Niobe-pilots-through-the-Death-Star scene was also a bit stretched, but it was still entertaining.  "Damn she's got a fat ass". 

Neo and Trinity's flight felt a little like the sojourn of Jodie Foster in "Contact".  Violent, then surreal, then awakening.  The machine city was excellent.  The face appearing was a little cheesy but perhaps that's what the W. Bros were going for at that point.

My theory on the death of Agent Smith is this (prepare yourself):  The Oracle in the original movie told Neo he wasn't The One.  He was waiting on something.  When Neo destroys Smith in that movie, we get to see him as Matrix code and he is now yellow instead of green.  He is now The One.

In the second movie, Neo sees Seraph in Matrix code as yellow and identifies him as a program.  Curious?  Smith reappears and explains to Neo that whenever he was destroyed, there was some kind "merging"- some change that occured.  I think that essentially there was a blending of the two.  Neo never destroys any other program in the way he did Smith, (although Smith certainly aquires a taste for it).  Essentially, Neo is now part-human, part-program.  This is why he is able to feel the Sentinels outside the Matrix.  That was his "gift" from Agent Smith.

Smith, now a sort of virus/worm, is infecting the Matrix, sending it out of control in a way the machines cannot stop without Neo.  Why? ...

When Smith copies a person, specifically another program, he seems to aquire a bit of their code.  This is how he was able to see the future after copying over the Oracle.  When Smith copies over Neo, it's the same as when he copied over Bane.  When he woke up, he'd be in Neo-skin.  More importantly, he gains Neo's sentience of machines which is how he sees his death/deletion coming.  The "Master Program", sensing its newfound connection to all Smiths, proceeded to delete all the copies from there since it was hard-wired into the real-world Neo.  

Whew!  Thoughts?


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## satori01 (Nov 7, 2003)

My biggest quibble w/ the movie is the title.  IT IS NOT MATRIX REVOLUTIONS, it is Matrix peace treaty.  Life is for the most part the same.

I cant help but think the sequel movies would have been better as a TV show.  Reloaded threw so many ideas out there, that simply were not expanded upon in Revolutions.  The nature of the machines is somewhat muddled, from very human, to incomprehensibly dense.  Why given that emotions would seem to be common ground for both humans and machines, couldnt an acord be made earlier?

I love the fact that the humans never picked up on the fact that the oracle was yanking their chain and pulling the strings.  How happy would the humans be if they knew the oracle had created Smith.


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## Berandor (Nov 7, 2003)

I will only amend one thing:


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## Mathew_Freeman (Nov 7, 2003)

Roflmao!


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## uv23 (Nov 7, 2003)

A few of my own comments as a reaction to those above:

The acting of the guy that Smith uploaded himself into was amazing. Probably the highlight of the movie. His masssteryyyy of the smith vooiice was incredible. 

Kai Lord: what makes you think that the machines are freeing all of the humans? I didn't interpret that at all. When the oracle referred to the exiles being left alone at the end, I assume she meant exile programs.

Why was seraph's code gold in Reloaded? I thought that was reserved for machines in the real world.

I was dissapointed by the character of Morpheus being tossed aside. He got very little screen time. I suppose his time, as the herald of prophecy, was done. But still...

Anyways thats enough rambling for now.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Nov 7, 2003)

Velenne said:
			
		

> * SPOILERS.....**
> 
> 
> My theory on the death of Agent Smith is this (prepare yourself):  The Oracle in the original movie told Neo he wasn't The One.  He was waiting on something.  When Neo destroys Smith in that movie, we get to see him as Matrix code and he is now yellow instead of green.  He is now The One.
> ...




Very good theory. Probably the best and most concise I've seen and it wraps all my own theories together in a sensible compilation.

Good job!


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## Ashrem Bayle (Nov 7, 2003)

uv23 said:
			
		

> Kai Lord: what makes you think that the machines are freeing all of the humans? I didn't interpret that at all. When the oracle referred to the exiles being left alone at the end, I assume she meant exile programs.
> 
> Why was seraph's code gold in Reloaded? I thought that was reserved for machines in the real world.
> 
> ...




The Architect says that all those who want to will be freed. 

Seraph's code was indeed yellow/gold. It wasn't the same as Neo's golden vision in Revolutions. It looked identical to "normal" matrix code, but was yellow/gold in color.

I missed Morpheus too. He should have taken Zee's time in the spotlight.


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## uv23 (Nov 7, 2003)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> The Architect says that all those who want to will be freed.




Hmm I don't remember the coversation at the end completely anymore but I remember thinking two things: the Oracle had negotiated for all of the exiled _programs_ to be left alone, i.e. don't need to be smuggled around anymore. And that yes, humans could be allowed to leave the matrix, but not that they would be let go en masse or anything like that. So essentially, very little has changed for humanity...


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## Ashrem Bayle (Nov 7, 2003)

uv23 said:
			
		

> Hmm I don't remember the coversation at the end completely anymore but I remember thinking two things: the Oracle had negotiated for all of the exiled _programs_ to be left alone, i.e. don't need to be smuggled around anymore. And that yes, humans could be allowed to leave the matrix, but not that they would be let go en masse or anything like that. So essentially, very little has changed for humanity...




We don't know the extent of that though. I got the impression that if a human wanted out, he would be set free. Now, whats to stop all the people from Zion from jacking in and going public about the truth of the Matrix? Then everyone gets to decide.


One thing some people are forgetting (or didn't know) is that the machines never wanted war in the first place. According to the Animatrix (Second Renessiance), the machines where attacked by the humans first in an act of hate (racism?) and the war began as the machines tried to defend themselves.

Since they never really wanted the war in the first place, it is not surprising that they would agree to peace.


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## RangerWickett (Nov 7, 2003)

I was sitting at Waffle House last night with two of my friends, discussing the movie after we got out.  I espouse that the ending is weakly written with lots of plot holes.  My friend Dave believes in the Matrix within the Matrix theory.  My other friend Neil is moderating.

Eventually, while examining Dave's idea for any sort of logical support, we propose that 'The Matrix' where everyone exists normally is a standard computer virtual reality world, and that 'The Real World' is actually a sort of pocket dimension, coded with its own rules so that people who leave the first Matrix think they're in the real world, and not in a simulation.  This was Dave's way of explaining why The Matrix is all green-coded (which Neo can see), but The Real World has no code that Neo sees, except for the yellow energy of the machines.

I asked why, if both worlds are matrices, would Neo be able to use all his super powers in The Matrix early on, but have very little power in The Real World.  At this point, Neil steps in and says, "It's like the Green Lantern.  Neo is Hal Jordan, and the 'real world' matrix is yellow, so he has no power over it!"

Ah, it all makes sense now.  The Matrix Trilogy is an allegory for the Green Lantern comics.


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## KChagga (Nov 7, 2003)

My main problem with the movie is that the idea was to free the people in the matrix.  At least that was the point of the first movie.
At the end of Revolutions we have the Architect saying that those who want to be free will be set free.
The problem is these people are firmly entrenched in the matrix.  They dont know that there is a freedom to be had.  There aren't that many people who disbelieve the illusion of the matrix.  This means that 99.5%(my guesstimate) of the human population will stay in the matrix.

People are still slaves.

The people are not free.

Let's look at the people who are free.  The people in Zion.  OK now they aren't at war with the machines.  They live in a cave deep in the center of the earth.  I don't believe it would be possible for them to live anywhere on the surface anymore.  Even if they could they would be hiding out amongst the machines.  They would have to live as the cockroaches of the enslaving machine race's society.  

This is not freedom either.  

These people are prisoners.

The main objective of the original movie is never met.  It's not even moved towards(at least the way I see it).  We are in almost exactly the same position that the movies started at.  The conflict is not resolved.
The machines didnt even have to be beaten to make a significant conclusion.
Here is my version of how the end of the movie should have went.
Neo is jacked into the machine god directly.  Neo uses his odd ability to destroy machines on the machine god.  Being directly jacked into the machine god allows him to have a huge struggle with the machine god.  Cue awesome special effects metaphysical mind battle here. Somehow Neo wins and the machine god is destroyed.  Maybe well say this permanently damages the machines systems.  Without their leader all of the machines are now directionless.  The machines begin working as individual rather than a hive.  Now humanity has a chance to fight back.  Now people have not won the war, but they have the hope to be able to do so.  You could still have the fight with Smith if you wanted, but that was really unnecessary to the plot of saving the people.

Back to the other stuff.  With the people who want to be free being set free.  Look at it this way do you really think there is anything that the rebels could do that would make anyone more than what they already were doing disbelieve the matrix.  Think about if somehow walked up to you and told you that reality wasn't real and that everything you believe in doesn't exist, do YOU believe them.  Of course not.  Even if you see people doing unbelievable things you will just think that you are hallucinating or some such.
Well thats enough for now.
I did enjoy the movie, I just was really disappointed with the ending.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Nov 7, 2003)

KChagga said:
			
		

> The problem is these people are firmly entrenched in the matrix.  They dont know that there is a freedom to be had.




Why not? We don't know what happens after Revolutions but it is easy to imagine that the people of Zion, and maybe even the machines themselves, could show everyone that reality is just a construct.

They want proof? It shouldn't be too hard for the Matrix itself to give them proof. Not to mention the fact that the humans are now free to unplug whoever they want.

You: Reality is a computer program? Yea. Right. Sure it is.
Me: It is.
You: Prove it.
Me: Ok. *unplugs you*
You: *waking up in pod* Ah!!

Not to mention all the people popping in and out of the Matrix all the time. If they don't have to do it secretly, everyone would know about it in no time. Heck, they could even televise it!!

The little speech that Neo gave at the end of the first Matrix movie came true. Everyone will get a chance to see "reality" for themselves and they will be able to, if they so choose, live in a word without boundries.

We don't see this happen, but to borrow a line from Smith, it is inevitable.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 7, 2003)

KChagga said:
			
		

> My main problem with the movie is that the idea was to free the people in the matrix.  At least that was the point of the first movie.




I agree to a point...but the thing is, by the time of Revolutions, we've learned that there is a LOT more going on than what Morpheous thought at the first movie. Things have changed, and goals had to be changed. 

Have to say it, but I loved this movie. For me at least, it answered ALL questions. It all makes sense to me, and I think that's great. It just didn't spell out everything, and you have to think about a lot of it.

As for the Neo-Smith thing. No, the Source didn't actually destroy Smiths, but he 'activated' Neo. Smith is a Virus...Neo is the anti-virus. He went through, and destroyed the virus in the system.


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## Kesh (Nov 7, 2003)

Yeah, this ending was better than the way Morpheus intended. If Morpheus had his way, it would've meant the annihilation of the machines.

Where would that leave us? The survivors of Zion, and several million 'pod people' on a dead world with no sunlight. Yeah, that's a good formula for survival.

This way, the awakened humans and machines can work together to build a new, joint society & try to repair the damage done to the planet during the war.

There's going to be people who want out when they learn the truth. There's going to be people who don't want out. There's going to be people who want out, see the real world, and want right back in again. And there's going to be people who go stark raving mad when faced with the truth.

The ones who stay in have a few advantages. Combine the Matrix with Zion's training techniques, and you've got people who can download a PhD to their brain in a matter of hours.

Of course, some zones of the Matrix would have to be set aside for the new wave of troublemakers zipping around in bullet-time and causing trouble for everyone else. Zion-trained police forces to deal with them, working alongside Agents. 

... I'm babbling. Sorry.


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## Mathew_Freeman (Nov 8, 2003)

Kesh said:
			
		

> Yeah, this ending was better than the way Morpheus intended. If Of course, some zones of the Matrix would have to be set aside for the new wave of troublemakers zipping around in bullet-time and causing trouble for everyone else. Zion-trained police forces to deal with them, working alongside Agents.
> 
> ... I'm babbling. Sorry.



Actually, I think you've just taken a good guess at what the MMORPG is going to be about. 

Think about it - if humans and the machines co-exist, suddenly the bad guys become 'rogue programs' like the Merovingian, for example. His purpose is to be a person who knows everything and only gives out what he wants, so he's an obstacle to people getting what they want. In a MMORPG, that's what you need. Obstacles that can be overcome in a certain way, but remain there anyway.


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## Kai Lord (Nov 10, 2003)

Chain Lightning said:



> Other stuff: the unclear resolution to Smith. One of you mentioned that Neo allowed himself to be assimulated so he can then self-distruct and kill ALL Smiths. Yes, I can see how the seen can be interpreted like that, but how can we be for sure? Where's the evidence in the film of that move?



We know from the films that when Smith assimilates a human, his mind replaces the mind of the human that's plugged in (like with Bane).  Right after Smith assimilates Neo, we see the Neo/Smith smile at the Oracle/Smith but then suddenly the Machine God starts pumping loads of power through the cables plugged into Neo's body.

Smith's mind can't handle the power of the Source and is destroyed.  Since all Smiths are interconnected, the Source is able to start a chain reaction and destroy every one of them.

This completely caught Smith off guard, since he had assumed the entire time they were fighting in the rain that Neo was just plugged into a chair on a hovercraft somewhere which would have made them exact equals and polar opposites of each other, or very close to it.

But to Smith Neo cheated by jacking into the unlimited power of the Source ("What?  That's not fair!") which caused Smith to be destroyed.

How Neo blew up Smith in the original was quite ambiguous, how he did it in Revolutions was actually pretty well explained on film.


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## Tom Cashel (Nov 10, 2003)

Tallarn said:
			
		

> His purpose is to be a person who knows everything and only gives out what he wants, so he's an obstacle to people getting what they want.




...like Donald Rumsfeld?  _Ba-doom-tishhhh!_

Hey folks (and this isn't directed at Tallarn)--the thread title says SPOILERS, not FAN FICTION.  Every time I see the phrase "If _I'd_ written this movie..." I bloop right over it.

Otherwise, these Matrix threads are pretty funny.  The "But Nobody Won the War"/"They Dropped the Philosophical Ball" dichotomy is downright hilarious.

Edited to add, I liked it all right.  The flick, that is.  Like Neo, it served its purpose.


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## Chain Lightning (Nov 11, 2003)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> We know from the films that when Smith assimilates a human, his mind replaces the mind of the human that's plugged in (like with Bane).  Right after Smith assimilates Neo, we see the Neo/Smith smile at the Oracle/Smith but then suddenly the Machine God starts pumping loads of power through the cables plugged into Neo's body.
> 
> Smith's mind can't handle the power of the Source and is destroyed.  Since all Smiths are interconnected, the Source is able to start a chain reaction and destroy every one of them.
> 
> ...




You know, that's what I came away from the movie thinking too. That was also my interpretation of the scene.  But I guess I was hasty to label the scene as unclearly told because so many others on the boards were walking away with these varying versions. One guy said Neo self destructed. I was like, "What? He did? I thought the machine leader guy pumped all the energy into him to make him explode."

So, if you and I have the same conclusion, what does that mean? Does it mean that our version is most likely the correct interpretation? Or we just so happen to be two guys that have the same incorrect interpretation? 

Hopefully, no one will walk in on my post and reply, "but that's what's beautiful about the films, you are left to wonder and figure things out for yourself". Now, while I believe a film shouldn't treat their audiences like dumbies, there is a balance when it comes to storytelling. If you go to far and be abstract too much, you end up like David Lynch. Who's to say what is left up to us and what was simply poorly told? The arguement that it is neat to leave it up to the viewer is okay on certian types of story formula, but it can't be used to excuse every bit of sloppy filming. 

(Sort of Off Topic: It used to be neat that the guy at McDonald's filled my cup for me, no I gotta do it.....)

Okay, we agree on the resolution of Smith. I don't what these other crackpots are thinking....but I think you and I are right.   Heh heh heh.

I still think its the weakest of the three films. There wasn't enough drama or emotion to feel like a climatic ending to a trilogy. Dialogue was still bad and the ending was still very uninteresting artistically. Odd, considering the style of the whole trilogy is the visual style. That being so, the visual style of the ending scenes were the most boring and un-artistic.


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## Numion (Nov 11, 2003)

In my opinion the movie was totally pointless, and utter crap too. 

Reloaded had some redeeming qualities (highway sequence, cool fights). This had about none. 

The attack to Zion was laughable. The droids were cool in some way, but I just kept laughing at the ludicrious shooting and shouting the one dude kept making. This had more computer animation than finding nemo! Original Matrix was much more stylish with the limited CGI. 

And then, WTF?! The machines were lead by a freaking 

BIG GIANT HEAD?!??!?! 

Pretty ridiculous. 

Ok, those were about the visuals. Then there was the dialogue, which was as bad as in Reloaded. I would've broken down screaming if the trilogy had had one more "I'm coming with you" "No you're not" "Yes" "No" argument. Also the semi-philosophical jibba-jabba got old in Reloaded. 

Very disappointed.


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## Dreeble (Nov 12, 2003)

Heya:



			
				Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> We don't know what happens after Revolutions[...]




 No, we _do_ know what happens after Revolutions: The Matrix Online.  Where players fight agents and cops and security guards and such.  The Wachowski (sp?) Brothers were reportedly already working on the game with the developers immediately after finishing Revolutions.

 As such, the ending disappointed me, what with knowing what essentially comes next.  The resolution was the status quo.  Kind of a bummer.  I did enjoy everything up to then, though.

Take care,
Dreeble


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Nov 12, 2003)

It was an ok movie.  I was expecting a lot more to be honest.  The ending, while I understand what happened, sucked.  Is humanity freed?  Nope.  They rebooted the matrix, said that minds that wanted to be freed would be freed, and then the architect walks away.  Ok, so what exactly does that mean?  Suppose all the minds want to be freed?  Wouldn't that destroy the power of the machines?  Why would they let that happen?  

The whole movie was a letdown to be honest.  Too little matrix action for one.  I got bored in the middle of the superlong Zion battle scene.  Where was the mega Kung-Fu action that the Matrix series is known for?  There was some good action I suppose, but compared to the freeway chase in Reloaded or the lobby scene in the original, it was like watching the Andy Griffith Show.  The movie had several totally useless scenes, the whole part with the train guy and the s&m club could have been trimmed out and not an iota would have been lost other than to show that Trinity loves Neo, which has been established very well as it is.  Why is the Oracle different again?   Morpheus is reduced to a supporting character that does nothing at all?  Why when the robots leave do they immediately assume the war is over?  Maybe the robots were getting ready to drop a nuke in there or something...seemed kind of premature to me.    

I didn't feel like I wanted my money back, I felt like a great series was maimed by a mediocre ending though. When I came out of Reloaded I was ready to get back in line and see it again.  With this I was ready to tell people to wait until the DVD is out for rental.   

The more I think of it the more I think it's the most dissapointing trilogy capper ever.


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## myrdden (Nov 12, 2003)

Dreeble said:
			
		

> No, we _do_ know what happens after Revolutions: The Matrix Online.  Where players fight agents and cops and security guards and such.  The Wachowski (sp?) Brothers were reportedly already working on the game with the developers immediately after finishing Revolutions.




I am curious...

If the above is true, then could it be stated that the ending was written the way it was so as to create a plausible background for the MMORPG set after the movies?

Just musing...I haven't seen the movie and probably won't get to it for a while.

Interesting reactions though.

Myrdden


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Nov 12, 2003)

myrdden said:
			
		

> I am curious...
> 
> If the above is true, then could it be stated that the ending was written the way it was so as to create a plausible background for the MMORPG set after the movies?
> <snip>




Wow, that would be probably the worst thing I've ever heard of, as far as movie making that is.   If that crap ending was the result of a desire to make a video game...wow that's taking movie making to a new low.   Ok, that's not true, but it would be pretty close.  


P.S. Godfather III is one worse 3rd movie I can remember.  Ugh!


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## mojo1701 (Nov 13, 2003)

*Spoilers abound...*



			
				Numion said:
			
		

> BIG GIANT HEAD?!??!?!




Maybe that's who the Big Giant Head from _3rd Rock_ really is...

Anyway, I liked it. I liked the Battle of Zion, and the mood of the final battle was really set. The demise of Smith really made me wonder, but I think I'm understanding it now...

Anyway, my major gripe with the movie was that the movie didn't end with Rage Against the Machine.


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## Welverin (Nov 13, 2003)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> the movie didn't end with Rage Against the Machine.




No greater words have ever been spoken, or typed as it were.


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## barsoomcore (Nov 13, 2003)

Welverin said:
			
		

> No greater words have ever been spoken, or typed as it were.



 And they're true in the general case.

What movie wouldn't be improved by a little RAtM?


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## Welverin (Nov 13, 2003)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> What movie wouldn't be improved by a little RAtM?




Everyone ever made, quite the opposite actually.

no, I'm not a fan


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## JacktheRabbit (Nov 13, 2003)

Having see the movie a couple thoughts about its ending come to mind.

1. All the humans could not have been freed. Look at the surface. Zion barely supported 250,000 people. Any more released from the Matrix would have died.


2. The true hero is the Oracle. She did something to Neo that caused him to create Smith. This then created a large enough threat for the Machine World that only a human could stop. This allowed a true peace to happen.

3. This really changes nothing. The Machines obviously cannot fix the scorched sky. The addition of Zion helping won't change that so the Matrix as a power source for the machines will still be needed.

4. Best acting job in the entire series was definately Agent Smith. 2nd place goes to Bane being Agent Smith. 

5. Zion is lead by a military boob. Lock deserves to be demoted to broom pusher for being as dumb as he was.

6. No matter how well she did piloting the Hammer, Niobe is no Han Solo.


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## mojo1701 (Nov 13, 2003)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> 2. The true hero is the Oracle. She did something to Neo that caused him to create Smith. This then created a large enough threat for the Machine World that only a human could stop. This allowed a true peace to happen.




Yes, this is true. Also, it was the Oracle that prophesized the return of the One, so that's how they knew to search.



> 3. This really changes nothing. The Machines obviously cannot fix the scorched sky. The addition of Zion helping won't change that so the Matrix as a power source for the machines will still be needed.




Yes and No. Remember, that anyone who wishes, will be freed. And also, we don't know that. Humans have more creativity than AIs.



> 4. Best acting job in the entire series was definately Agent Smith. 2nd place goes to Bane being Agent Smith.




No beef there.



> 6. No matter how well she did piloting the Hammer, Niobe is no Han Solo.




Of course not. It wasn't an asteroid field. But, Han also had Chewie.


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## Welverin (Nov 14, 2003)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> Of course not. It wasn't an asteroid field. But, Han also had Chewie.




And Morpheus is no Chewbacca!


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## Kai Lord (Nov 14, 2003)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> 6. No matter how well she did piloting the Hammer, Niobe is no Han Solo.



Of course not.  But she makes a fine poor man's Lando.


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## Kai Lord (Nov 14, 2003)

Chain Lightning said:
			
		

> So, if you and I have the same conclusion [on how Smith was destroyed], what does that mean? Does it mean that our version is most likely the correct interpretation? Or we just so happen to be two guys that have the same incorrect interpretation?



No, we're just two guys who happened to both pay attention to what was shown on screen.    



			
				Chain Lightning said:
			
		

> I still think [Revolutions] is the weakest of the three films. There wasn't enough drama or emotion to feel like a climatic ending to a trilogy. Dialogue was still bad and the ending was still very uninteresting artistically. Odd, considering the style of the whole trilogy is the visual style. That being so, the visual style of the ending scenes were the most boring and un-artistic.



For me Reloaded was the weakest of the trilogy by far.  I have NO interest in watching a God-like Neo engage in pointless fight he can't lose after pointless fight he can't lose.  After I heard they were doing sequels to the first Matrix what I hoped to see was the Matrix Neo have an all out showdown with a super powerful "Anti-Neo" while the Zion Neo and the rest of the unplugged fought a real-world war of almost insurmountable odds.  I got that with Revolutions.

Its funny because I had assumed the Anti-Neo would have been another human who developed powers of The One to use for his own ends, but I really like the angle they took with giving Smith that role.  The strikes against Revolutions are the weak first 25 minutes, the less than stellar epilogue, and characters that I just am simply not attached to on the level of Han, Luke, Leia, or the cast of the LOTR films.  And I fault Reloaded for really initiating that detachment.

Regardless, I found Revolutions to be a hell of a good time, and I got chills watching both the Zion fight and especially Neo's showdown with Smith.  And I see real genius in how they set up the last chapter.

The name of the series is "The Matrix" so you expect the finale to take place there, but how do you orchestrate that when its all virtual and really only the revelation of the real issue which is all the humans in the pods.  But with Smith they gave a credible reason the Machines would be forced to adjust their actions in the real world based on the outcome of the showdown in the Matrix.  Brilliant, and exquisitely played out.  The bookend was weak, alas, but they delivered where it counted.


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## RangerWickett (Nov 14, 2003)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> The bookend was weak, alas, but they delivered where it counted.




Yes, they made sure people thought it'd be cool enough to pay for.  I imagine that a better ending would've been for the Wachowski's to show up on screen in person, wallowing in a room covered with cash.  They'd have Keanu Reeves in the background trying to quote Shakespeare in a faux-artsy homage to those stereotyped weird black and white German films, and they'd taunt us that now that we've spent our money, there's no getting it back.  Matrix-y special effects would cause more and more money to fill the room, accompanied with a greenish glow and backwards katakana, and their laughter would climax into maniacal fits.

Then, after a moment of complete silence, Keanu would turn around and face the camera, and say, "This was the best Decemberween ever."


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## JacktheRabbit (Nov 14, 2003)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> Of course not.  But she makes a fine poor man's Lando.





I was responding to statements she has made that she was cast as the Han Solo of the Matrix. I found them to be arrogant and inaccurate. She had only one quality and it was the least of Han's qualities which was being a pilot. She had no presence, personality, cockiness, all of the things that made Han be Han.


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## Kesh (Nov 14, 2003)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> I was responding to statements she has made that she was cast as the Han Solo of the Matrix. I found them to be arrogant and inaccurate. She had only one quality and it was the least of Han's qualities which was being a pilot. She had no presence, personality, cockiness, all of the things that made Han be Han.




Personality was a bit lacking, yes. Most of the rest ended up in the _Enter the Matrix_ game. She got some good scenes in there. (Though the guy playing Sparks was the best actor in that game.)

Personally, I hope they do an extended Director's Cut of _Reloaded_ with the EtM cutscenes spliced in. It helps fill out the story and gives Ghost, Niobe and Sparks an actual purpose to the plot.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Nov 14, 2003)

Yep.

I thought for sure they would say at least SOMETHING about the fact that Ghost and Trinity are brother and sister.

Loved the scenes they had together in Enter the Matrix.


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## JoeGKushner (Nov 15, 2003)

Here's my comments after seeing the movie tonight. Copied from the rating poll.

Perhaps it's just rage but I gave it a 1.

Spoilers.





1. The suits of armor were open. Why? These were not standard civilian gear being used to fight, oh I don't know, Aliens at the last second were they? Lame.

2. Trinity's death, as others have said, way too long and way too boring.

3. What happened to the fighting sequences? The first one and second one had some great scenes but this third one, outside of the fight between Neo and Smith, were boring. No bullet time really, no sense of motion. Just lots of bullets flying. Some one else's thing, not mine.

4. The ending with the Oracle and the Architech. Whole thing sucked. Where was Neo? Is this going to be like Kane from Kung Fu where he wanders the land helping man and machine get along? "That crazy human was on my faming land and I demand his death!" "No my brother, we must all serve stupid sunglasses."

5. The whole fight with Smith. Why is is that Neo is still using his fists? I mean wasn't one of the biggest things in the first movie that once Neo starts thinking he won't have to use his fists?

6. The whole French Club and Tran scenes could've, nay, should've been cut. They really didn't add a thing to the movie outside of stupidity, nudity, and bad French accents. I mean, why didn't Neo just drag Smith to the trainstation and have the train guy kick his butt? "Yeah, you're the bomb in the Matrix but here, it's the train bum!"

7. One main character dies and everyone else goes about on their merry way. Doesn't seem like much of a sacrifice. Heck, after the death scene, Neo didn't even seem to notice or anything. No touching speech as to why he was fighting, no bravo, no nothing really.

8. I could go on, but I thought the movie was the weakest of the three. The only good thing was that it showed me, given the proper budget and enough rain and shadows, a Dragonball Z movie could actulaly have a pretty good fight scene (which was proven to a lesser degree in Superman II)


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## Henry (Nov 18, 2003)

I enjoyed some of it, but it was not that fulfilling to me; to be honest, I'd rather they stopped at the first film, because the second two drug it out to what was to me an unsatisfying conclusion.

Someone pointed out that everyone may want to be freed; the fact is, everyone will NOT want to be freed, due to human nature of desire for safety and security. Take note of any thread on any message board that asks whether a person would like to leave their home and family for a life od adventure; 90% of people usually pick their families and their generally good lives over uncertainty and the unknown. In the world of the Matrix, most people have food, shelter, clothing, and a "normal" life unbothered by the computers or the humans. If you are jacked out, you are in a world of uncertainty, famine, and danger.

The majority of people wouldn't want to know it wasn't real, and if told, WOULDN'T CARE. I honestly don't know if I could make that choice, myself! 

_"Henry, your world is a lie. The real world is a post-apocalyptic wasteland, where we fight for survival. If you choose to leave your wife, kids, job, and family behind, and enter the real world, you will live a life of boundless possibilities - but possible death. But you will be free. What do you choose?"

"CHOOSE?!@? You call that a CHOICE!?!?! No thanks, I've got a D&D game next Saturday, and my wife and I were going out tomorrow night. Can we talk about this after Christmas?"_


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## Negative Zero (Nov 19, 2003)

y'know *Henry*, it's funny, i was having a similar discussion with a friend the other night. given the choice, why not stay in the Matrix? if i knew about it, and now had all this potential power, i would likely stay. i already have a life i like, and now i have all of these abilities to boot? sounds like a fun time to me! 

of course there's the issue of freedom and reality, which is made out to be such a big deal in the movies. but even Morpheus makes the point: what is real? if you can see, hear, smell and feel it, is it not real? isn't reality made up from what our brains percieve. does not perception create reality? (which i think is one of the central ideas behind the movie) then what's wrong with the "virtual" reality of the Matrix? even Cypher debated with this idea: "i think the Matrix can be more real ..." 

for the record, i did like this one. i initially thought i loved it, till i thought about it some more. (which of course is the W Bros fault since the first one made you think that much to suss out its nuances.) but despite the fact that it's got enough plot holes to drive a fleet of tankers through, it was really enjoyable. i credit the second one with lowering my expectations sufficiently for me to enjoy this one 

~NegZ


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## John Crichton (Nov 19, 2003)

Negative Zero said:
			
		

> i credit the second one with lowering my expectations sufficiently for me to enjoy this one



Ya know, that is kinda how I feel.  I did like *Revolutions* and enjoyed my time in the theater.  I do have gripes (not as many as some folks have) but my expectations were low enough to not even bother seeing it on opening night, which is a big deal for me.

I should get around to posting a review one of these days just so I can go back and read it after I watch all 3 movies again.  I have a feeling they will stand up better the second time I watch them.  I enjoyed the first one much more upon a second viewing and I'm hoping the same holds true for the entire trilogy, which I really _want_ to like.


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## mojo1701 (Nov 19, 2003)

Henry said:
			
		

> Someone pointed out that everyone may want to be freed; the fact is, everyone will NOT want to be freed, due to human nature of desire for safety and security. Take note of any thread on any message board that asks whether a person would like to leave their home and family for a life od adventure; 90% of people usually pick their families and their generally good lives over uncertainty and the unknown. In the world of the Matrix, most people have food, shelter, clothing, and a "normal" life unbothered by the computers or the humans. If you are jacked out, you are in a world of uncertainty, famine, and danger.
> 
> The majority of people wouldn't want to know it wasn't real, and if told, WOULDN'T CARE. I honestly don't know if I could make that choice, myself!
> 
> ...




Didn't Morpheus say that they don't free a mind once it's reached a certain age, because "they have trouble letting go?"

But you're right.


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## Darrin Drader (Nov 20, 2003)

I just saw it tonight. Oh, where to begin...

First off, I'm looking at the whole series as a whole, not as 1 was better than 2, which was better than... but...

The Wachowski's wanted to tell a story and they told that story. I enjoyed Reloaded, and if there was any reason to be disappointed with it, its because it was just a tease of #3. That whole part where they go to Zion and I saw the armored suits and the grand landscapes, the whole time I was just thinking that I couldn't wait for all that to be used for something.

I knew at the end of the first one that the end would have to be fought outside of the Matrix. I wasn't surprised by that aspect of Revolutions.

I disagree with the notion that nothing has been resolved by the end. I have to applaud Warner Brothers for not providing the typical Hollywood ending. It actually aknowledges the fact that now the machines and humans have a complex relationship and you won't fix things by simply disconnecting from the machine. The machine became part of the ecology of Earth and without them the rest of humanity would probably die in the world as it was. 

Revolutions establishes a few things about the nature of the world. In the first movie the assumption is that humans are traped inside but they can get out. In the third one you find out that the programs are as real and in possession of the same emotions as humans. That makes their eradication a much harder thing to live with. It also establishes that there are holes in the matrix that allow mechanical things to escape into the outside world. OK, nifty, right?

As for Morpheus being sidelined, you have to remember his purpose. He's John the Baptist. He's the visionary who comes before the messiah. You can summarize his function in the story as the guy who finds Neo. At the end of Revolutions his ship is destroyed and the only thing he has left is his faith. In Revolutions he is in a position where he is unable to pilot the ship because he can't fly it mechanically. There is nothing for him to do in the matrix after getting Neo away from the trian keeper. The most important thing he accomplishes is showing back up to Zion alive and then maintaining his faith in the messiah he believes in. The last thing he said to Neo was that the pleasure was always his, which is the type of thing John the baptist would have said to Jesus. The greatest action he could take in this movie was his inaction. It was beautiful.

So here's something that I'm surprised no one else has picked up on. Neo's heroic cycle mirrors Paul's in Dune (which is based on something out of mythology). In the first episode Neo unplugs from the matrix, sees the world for what it really is, meets the woman he loves, and essentially becomes a superhero. In Dune, Paul disconnects from the world he knows, takes the spice, and becomes a superhero in the form of Mua d'ib (please forgive the spellings since I know I'm getting it wrong). Matrix Relloaded is full of a bunch of action and exposition. I liked it, but in reality you could cut straight from 1 to 3 without 2 and it wouldn't detract from the story much. On the other hand it does show the "Continuing adventures of Neo," which is kind of cool. The last few minutes set up Revolutions. Finally, back on track, Neo has established his supremacy over the matrix, takes off with Trinity for the city of machines and is blinded by agent Smith in a meat suit. Even blind he can suddenly see the machines in the real world and has superhero-like powers over them. Paul in Dune gets blinded but is still able to see and has a much more understated but still heroic progression. Trinity dies. Paul's wife dies. Paul wanders out into the desert. Neo becomes one with the machine. The Matrix = the desert. Smith(s) = the Harkonens.

Anyway, those are my observations. I have a feeling that this trilogy will age very well and could even become the next Star Wars. It brings up a lot of philosophical questions that people don't seem to want to touch, but by ignoring them, you miss the brilliance of the movies.


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## mojo1701 (Nov 20, 2003)

Baraendur said:
			
		

> Anyway, those are my observations. I have a feeling that this trilogy will age very well and could even become the next Star Wars.




I dunno. It could, but it's 'R' rating won't help much.


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## Droogie (Nov 22, 2003)

Baraendur said:
			
		

> Anyway, those are my observations. I have a feeling that this trilogy will age very well and could even become the next Star Wars.




Not the next star wars....apples and oranges. But I do agree that these films won't fade away. Inspite of the terrible reviews that Revolutions is getting, people will be discussing these films for years. 



			
				Baraendur said:
			
		

> It brings up a lot of philosophical questions that people don't seem to want to touch, but by ignoring them, you miss the brilliance of the movies.




Exactly. 

The movie threw me for a loop, because for the entire time, I assumed that to end the war, the humans had to annihilate the machines. Never did I realize that there was another possible outcome. We realize in the third film that the programs of the matrix are capable of emotions and the all-important human desire for choice. That changes things.We learn that the machines, like the humans, are fully capable of imperfection and ultimately, self annihilation. We realize that the machines are a form of life that have a desire to exist as much as humans. So what to do about the millions of enslaved humans still jacked in? The architect says that they can leave if they wish, but is that enough? It raises 10 questions to every one, but is that a bad thing? I don't think so.


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## shilsen (Nov 22, 2003)

Baraendur said:
			
		

> So here's something that I'm surprised no one else has picked up on. Neo's heroic cycle mirrors Paul's in Dune (which is based on something out of mythology).




Maybe some of the people who picked up on it just hadn't bothered to post on this thread  I started thinking of the Muad'dib analogy as soon as it became evident that Neo had some form of sight (foresight?) even after being blinded. 

That being said, I don't think the Matrix trilogy is ever going to become the next Star Wars. I enjoyed the movies thoroughly, though admittedly part 2 a lot less than I'd have liked to, and with the final one pt.2 dropping my expectations substantially helped. But I'm not particularly impressed by their philosophical musings and definitely would not put them in the brilliant category. But that's just my take on it.


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## stevelabny (Nov 27, 2003)

this is what happens when i dont see movies on opening day...
i dont see them for a month.

It seems to me that in general, the more you liked Matrix Reloaded, the less you liked Matrix Revolutions.

I kinda liked Reloaded, even with its bad special effects.

I kinda dislike Revolutions even though I thought it was really fun to look at.

For me, it went away from all things Matrix-y. Less philosophy, less kung-fu, less neo,trinity,morpheus  and more big mindless action seqeuences. (or just one..that wouldnt end) 

as pretty to look at as the zion-battle and smith-neo fight were... they were so poorly written that i was completely detached from them. focusing the zion battle around a few characters that i could care less about and having the machines (who took over the freakin world) have NO CONCEPT of strategy whatsoever was just killing me. And I'm all for stretching the boundaries of possibility for a good heroic moment, but wheelbarrowing ammunition across a battlefield littered with giant metal debris is the DUMBEST thing i have ever seen.

Whether you view Matix 2 and 3 as two seperate movies or one big one...  it just becomes one big disjointed mess.  

But at least I have heard The W brothers say it was a disjointed mess ON PURPOSE ( thats your segue to what i just wrote about Kill Bill)


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## mojo1701 (Nov 28, 2003)

Did anyone else notice the ad for Tastee Wheat in the train station?


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## Negative Zero (Nov 28, 2003)

yeah, i thought that was cute 

~NegZ


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## Welverin (Nov 28, 2003)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> Did anyone else notice the ad for Tastee Wheat in the train station?




No, but I did notice that the cityscape and other things during the opening credits (the matrix code bit) was the area Neo and Smith fought in as well as an aerial view of the machine city (not sure what the third one was, I’m thinking Zion, but there is no direct match that I noticed).


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## LostSoul (Nov 28, 2003)

Droogie said:
			
		

> We realize in the third film that the programs of the matrix are capable of emotions and the all-important human desire for choice.




I thought that was clear in the second movie.

I was really disappointed with this movie because I didn't care about Zion.  Machines proved to be human emotionally; so if they won, it would have been the child of humanity outliving the parent.  No big worry.

I wanted some kind of thought about those questions raised in the first two movies but all I got was a pair of boring fights.  We knew that Neo was going to win, so the final fight just dragged out until he did something.  And the Zion fight was pointless because humans = machines.  Or so I thought.

I liked the s&m club, though.  Nice visuals.


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## Corinth (Dec 1, 2003)

I finally saw the film.  As I did with the first two, I loved _Revolutions_.  I grokked the philosophical points right away, and no plot elements appeared out of place; everything made sense, from beginning to end, and tied the entire trilogy together into a wonderful whole.


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