# Help increase Save DC's



## Kaledor (Jul 31, 2005)

I'm looking for a host of ways to increase the save DCs on my wizard's spells:


Obviously there's Spell Focus and Greater SF. But those only grant +2 and it's got to be to a certain school of magic.  So, you could be spending quite a few feats to really beef up the DC's of your wizard. Is this really a good idea?

You could increase your Int score (never a bad idea if you can do this).

Are there any magic items that directly affect spell DC's (not headband of intellect)?
Are there any rules for creating a magic item like that?


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## Jdvn1 (Jul 31, 2005)

The Fatespinner has an ability that does that. Various other PrCs have class abilities that boost it for specific types/schools of spells.


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## the Jester (Jul 31, 2005)

The difficulty in buffing save DCs is an intentional part of the 3.5 revision.

I can't think of anything else (other than SF and GSF) in the core rules that increases your DCs.


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## Kaledor (Jul 31, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> The Fatespinner has an ability that does that. Various other PrCs have class abilities that boost it for specific types/schools of spells.





I'm definitely NOT opposed to using PrC to gain the boost. I hadn't looked at Fatespinner -- have to check that one out thanks.


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## MatthewJHanson (Aug 1, 2005)

The psionics book contains an item (psionatrix) that increased saves to one discipline (school) for 8,000 gp. Something similar could probably be adopted for magic.


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## TheNovaLord (Aug 1, 2005)

gnomes casting illusion spells (+1 DC) with SF and GSF have very hard to resist phantasmal killers and various shadow evoke etc spells. Plus having a con bonus makes it more likely you can slip an extra point into Int at creation and potentially have a higher Int stat quicker.


JohnD


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## Infiniti2000 (Aug 1, 2005)

Heighten Spell will also increase the save DCs of your lower spells, at the obvious cost of taking higher level spell slots.  Still, it's a great use for something like charm person.


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## Kaledor (Aug 1, 2005)

I like the idea of altering a magic item like the psionic one.
I also like the Heighten Metamagic, b/c we're using the Unearthed Arcana alternate rule on metamagics, so I won't have to spend higher slots for the spell... though, I'll only get to use it a few times per day.

Has anyone had any experience with the Spell Focus feats?
Is it a good purchase?
I ask, because wizard feats are so valuable, I wouldn't want to "waste" one on Spell Focus or Greater Spell Focus.

So, does anyone have any pro's and con's of buying this feat?


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## Infiniti2000 (Aug 1, 2005)

Kaledor said:
			
		

> I also like the Heighten Metamagic, b/c we're using the Unearthed Arcana alternate rule on metamagics, so I won't have to spend higher slots for the spell... though, I'll only get to use it a few times per day.



 You have to use higher slots for Heighten Spell.  That's the purpose of the feat.  What the Unearthed Arcana might do, however, is give you Heighten Spell as a free feat (or say that any spell prepared or cast in a higher slot is automatically heightened).



			
				Kaledor said:
			
		

> Has anyone had any experience with the Spell Focus feats?
> Is it a good purchase?
> I ask, because wizard feats are so valuable, I wouldn't want to "waste" one on Spell Focus or Greater Spell Focus.
> 
> So, does anyone have any pro's and con's of buying this feat?



 I think they are quite useful, even in 3.5.  Upping the DC on a spell is very powerful.  You're essentially adding 5%/10% to the chance that the victim will fail.  That's a big deal especially on save-or-die/incapacitate spells.


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## Rkhet (Aug 2, 2005)

Often, though, even with the feats you've got only 10 - 15% success rate, meaning that the spell isn't worth the action you're spending.

Now, for my standard polymorphing-solves-all-your-problems post:

check the Ethergaunt from Fiend Folio.  Remember that Polymorph Any Object grants you the target creature's Int score, and that a scroll of it is a rather cheap investment.


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## Scharlata (Aug 2, 2005)

Kaledor said:
			
		

> I'm looking for a host of ways to increase the save DCs on my wizard's spells:




Hi!

Some suggestions:

*Cold Focus*, Prereq.:-, Benefit: +1 bonus to save DCs against cold spells, Frostburn p.47

*Greater Cold Focus*, Prereq.: Cold Focus, Benefit: +1 bonus to save DCs against cold spells, stacks with Cold Focus, Frostburn p. 48

*Spell Focus (Chaos, Evil, Good, Lawful)*, Prereq.: Relevant alignment, Benefit: +1 bonus on save DCs for spells with alignment descriptor, Complete Divine p. 84

*Cooperative Spell*, Prereq.: Any metamagic feat, Benefit: Bonus to save DC and on caster level checks of spells cast in conjunction with other spellcasters, Complete Arcane p. 76

*Vow of Nonviolence*, Prereq.: Sacred Vow, Benefit: +4 bonus an save DCs of nondamaging spells, Book of Exalted Deeds p. 47

*Enchanting Song*, Prereq.: Bardic music, Perforn (any) 5 ranks, Spell Focus (Enchantment), Benefit: Spend bardic music to increase enchantment spell caster level and DC by 1, Races of Stone p. 139

*Misleading Song*, Prereq.: Bardic music, Perforn (any) 5 ranks, Spell Focus (Illusion), Benefit: Spend bardic music to increase illusion spell caster level and DC by 1, Racesy of Stone p. 142

*Draconic Power*, Prereq.: Draonic Heritage, Benefit: +1 caster level and DC for spells of the energy type matching your Draconic Heritage, Complete Arcane p. 78

Enjoy!


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## Li Shenron (Aug 2, 2005)

3.0


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## frankthedm (Aug 2, 2005)

*Try the natural way to wizardly power. AGE*

_VITAL STATISTICS
AGE

You can* choose *or randomly generate your character’s age......

With age, a character’s physical ability scores decrease and his or her mental ability scores increase (see Table: Aging Effects). The effects of each aging step are cumulative. However, none of a character’s ability scores can be reduced below 1 in this way......

At middle age, –1 to Str, Dex, and Con; +1 to Int, Wis, and Cha.
At old age, –2 to Str, Dex, and Con; +1 to Int, Wis, and Cha.
At venerable age, –3 to Str, Dex, and Con; +1 to Int, Wis, and Cha._


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## Mistwell (Sep 7, 2005)

I am currently considering taking the Shadow Weave Magic feat (Players Guide to Faerun), for my gnome illusionist.  It gives a +1 to illusion, enchantment, and necromancy spells at a cost to your transmutation and evocation and light spells.  A level of the Shadow Adept PRC also gets your SRP up by +5.


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## andargor (Sep 7, 2005)

The Elemental Savant (CA) gets Energy Focus over time. Yes, limited, but a +2 is still a Good Thing (tm).

Andargor


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## Synthetik Fish (Sep 7, 2005)

The Forgotten Reals Sourcebook has probably one of the most awesomest feats ever for a spellcaster. It's called Spellcasting Prodigy... basicly, you count your INT as 2 points higher for determining bonus spells and save DC's (you can only take the feat at 1st level.) However, in the Player's Guide to Faerun, they dropped the DC part fo the feat (which, in my opinon, makes it a suckie feat and takes out msot of its attractiveness.) A good DM should see the balance and let you take the older version of the feat.

I've also been thinking of magic item's that raise your DC's. It only makes sense! That should be the ONE thing that spellcasters desire. Fighters want better weapons, rogues [tend to] want dex, wizards want higher DC's. I was thinking of a pair of gauntlets/gloves called "Mage gloves" that all +1/+2/+3/+4 to save DC's (appropiate increase in price for each version.) Prerequisites form aking them would be creater having spell focus and greater spell focus. This bonus should stack with any other bonus. To bring the power of them down, a DM could think of restricting the bonus to a certain domain (Evocation, for example) or energy (fire spells, etc.) This power could be applied to rods (probably most likely), wonderous items, and even weapons (hey, makes sense to me. Gandolf has a sword, right?)

With that said, I'm pretty sure theres some bard abilities/spells and some cleric spells that MIGHT raise your DC's amongst other things? Not sure.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Sep 7, 2005)

Rkhet said:
			
		

> Often, though, even with the feats you've got only 10 - 15% success rate, meaning that the spell isn't worth the action you're spending.
> 
> Now, for my standard polymorphing-solves-all-your-problems post:
> 
> check the Ethergaunt from Fiend Folio.  Remember that Polymorph Any Object grants you the target creature's Int score, and that a scroll of it is a rather cheap investment.




What are you casting spells at that can make their saves so well? Is your DM cheating? Are you mistaken? Or are you just targeting strong saves?


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## Nail (Sep 7, 2005)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> Or are you just targeting strong saves?



This one, I'd guess.

In 3.5e, it is crucial that you understand what are the Poor saves of your opponents......and once you know, you should _only_ cast spells with that as the save.  Otherwise, you are wasting your action.

For example, I don't know how many times I've seen our magic-user target a big combat bruiser with a Fort save spell......and then be surprised when the bruiser makes it.    

Moreover, at high levels practically all of an opponent's saves are high enough to make it over 75% of the time.  It's just pointless to cast spells with saves at that level ( >15).


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## Synthetik Fish (Sep 7, 2005)

Nail said:
			
		

> This one, I'd guess.
> 
> In 3.5e, it is crucial that you understand what are the Poor saves of your opponents......and once you know, you should _only_ cast spells with that as the save.  Otherwise, you are wasting your action.
> 
> ...





This is why I am personally a fan of spells that don't offer saves at all. Rays are great! All you need is a ranged-touch attack, and they're done. Look at Ray of enfeeblement-- it's something like a Strength penalty of 1d6 + 1/(every two levels?) Something like that. But with NO SAVE, and it's a FIRST LEVEL spell. Granted, you might have to over come spell resistance...

Like Nail said, know your enemy! Paticularly for a wizard, flexibility is key. You don't target a Red Wyrm with a fireball, so don't target a brute with a Fort-save spell. Knowing what to use, and how to use the spells that you DO have is far more valuable than having higher DC's... IMHO.


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## darthkilmor (Sep 7, 2005)

Well, What is your save dc now(whats your int/feats?)?

Any int-boosting items would be the best way I would think.
Did they change 3.5 that the spell focus feats give +1 instead of +2 ?


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## Nail (Sep 7, 2005)

darthkilmor said:
			
		

> Did they change 3.5 that the spell focus feats give +1 instead of +2 ?



Yep.

Lost yer copy of the 3.5e SRD, did you?  Try here.


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## Synthetik Fish (Sep 7, 2005)

That also made Haste, Fly, and Polymorph suck (well, made them significantly weaker at least, and unjustifibly so, IMO.) Harm was significantly weakened as well.

3.5 was significant for magic-users in the way that it really, Really weakened them. The Expanded Psionists books also weakened Psions in a lot of ways, too (but they were bloody powerful in 3.0)

Although, they did improve a few spells imo, like Bulls Stength/Cat's Grace etc., Sleep, Charm, ... now that I thnk about it, most of the spells that were greatly revised are lower level spells.


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## kenobi65 (Sep 7, 2005)

The originial poster specifically excluded ability-boosting magic items, like Headband of Intellect, but they're one of the most obvious ones (then again, maybe he excluded it because he already has one).

They also have the benefit of giving you more spells per day.  For a Wizard, the Headband has the nice fringe benefit of adding to your skill modifier for several relevant skills (Knowledge, Spellcraft).

+6 ability-boosters are only 36K.  IMO, they're a great value for the benefit for any class, but particularly for spellcasters.


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## Synthetik Fish (Sep 7, 2005)

Ditto. A wizard would be getting extra spells per day, higher DC to all spells, more skill points per level, and bonuses to Int-based skills such as Knowledge. Nope, can't find a down side to this...

I DO wish that there were more ways to boost save DC's tho. Raising a stat, and a couple feats seem to be the only way...


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## Warmage-in-Onley (Sep 8, 2005)

Try the 5th level arcane spell Sword of Deception from Complete Arcane.  1 rd/level duration, no saving throw, melee attacks at bab=caster level, potential for multiple attacks per round, 1d4 damage/hit and -1 saving throw penalty to target hit, penalty cumulative to  -5 maximum, penalty lasts until target must save in dangerous situation then resets.


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## kenobi65 (Sep 8, 2005)

Synthetik Fish said:
			
		

> Ditto. A wizard would be getting extra spells per day, higher DC to all spells, more skill points per level, and bonuses to Int-based skills such as Knowledge. Nope, can't find a down side to this...




Not more skill points...at least not in 3.5.  The 3.5 version of the Headband of Intellect specifically states that it does not grant additional skill points.


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## Mistwell (Sep 8, 2005)

Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed/Evolved has an item that grants +1 DC to your spells for 12,000gp cost.

If the save DC issue is really getting you down, I suggest a build something like this using the Elemental Savant PRC from Complete Arcane:

Human Sorcerer (Cold Evocation Specialist)
Lev 1 Sorc Spell Focus feat: Evocations +1 DC, Greater Spell Focus feat: Evocations +1 DC, Familiar
Lev 2 Sorc
Lev 3 Sorc Energy Substitution feat: Cold
Lev 4 Sorc
Lev 5 Sorc
Lev 6 Elemental Savant (Cold), Resistance to Cold 5, Elemental Specialty (all energy spells auto-convert to cold), Draconic Heritage Feat (Complete Arcane): Silver (Disguise Class Skill, +2 v. Sleep Paralysis Cold) 
Lev 7 ElmSv Immunity to sleep
Lev 8 ElmSv Energy Penetration: Cold (SRP +2)
Lev 9 ElmSv Restistance to cold 10, Draconic Power feat (Complete Arcane) (+1 Caster level and DC all cold spells)
Lev 10 ElmSv Energy Focus: Cold +1 (-1 Spell Casting Level)
Lev 11 ElmSv Darkvision
Lev 12 ElmSv Resistance to cold 20, Cold Focus Feat (from Frostburn) +1 DC
Lev 13 ElmSv Energy Penetration: Cold +4
Lev 14 ElmSv Immunity to Paralysis and Poison 
Lev 15 ElmSv Elemental Perfection, Energy Focus: Cold +2, Energy Immunity: Cold, Greater Cold Focus Feat (from Frostburn) +1 DC (-1 Spell Casting Level)

+7 DC to cold evocations by 15th lev
+5 SRP to cold spells by 15th lev
+1 Caster Lev to cold spells by 9th lev

You might consider replacing a feat with Spell Thematics for an addition +1 caster level and +1 SRP to some cold spells.  The Frost Mage PRC is also an option with this build (from Frostburn), perhaps for levels 16-20.

This build could also work well with a Wizard if you are allowed by your DM to use the Evoker Variants on page 62 of Unearthed Aracana.  You would no longer get the two dragon feats above since you are not a sorceror, however the familar replacement and other variants make up for it and also free up a feat (and possibly give you an extra feat as well for your 5th level wizard bonus feat, if you don't replace it).


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## Mistwell (Sep 8, 2005)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> Not more skill points...at least not in 3.5.  The 3.5 version of the Headband of Intellect specifically states that it does not grant additional skill points.




And hence being forevermore the bane of all d20 Game Aid software makers around the world.



By the way, I totally forgot the Tattoo Focus feat from the DMG (bottom of Red Wizard PRC).  It gives +1 DC to your school of focus PLUS +1 Spell Resistance Penetration, making it better than the normal Spell Focus feat.


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## Testament (Sep 8, 2005)

Synthetik Fish said:
			
		

> That also made Haste, Fly, and Polymorph suck (well, made them significantly weaker at least, and unjustifibly so, IMO.) Harm was significantly weakened as well.




What are you on?  Polymorph got BETTER, since it now grants you the type you assume the form of (hello Plant immunities!), and Haste became WHAT IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ALL ALONG.  Extra actions is not something a 3rd level spell should be granting.  Heck, its not something a 6th level spell should be granting!


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## Synthetik Fish (Sep 8, 2005)

Testament said:
			
		

> What are you on?  Polymorph got BETTER, since it now grants you the type you assume the form of (hello Plant immunities!), and Haste became WHAT IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ALL ALONG.  Extra actions is not something a 3rd level spell should be granting.  Heck, its not something a 6th level spell should be granting!




Yeah, but they cut polymorph into 2 spells, thus cutting down its effectiveness. It was much more... lets say supple? before, when it was an all-in-one deal.

as for haste,well, they DID make it weaker   

I still don't understand knocking spell focus from +2 to +1 though.


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## TheClassic (Sep 28, 2005)

This is my first post here, and I'm pretty new to D&D, so forgive me if this is stupid....

I'm suprised nobody has suggested Fox's Cunning. You'll have to waste an action to cast it if you're in combat. If you have the luxury of suspecting impending combat you can buff yourself with it.  1 min/level +4 Int (+2 modifier)


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## Mistwell (Sep 28, 2005)

TheClassic said:
			
		

> This is my first post here, and I'm pretty new to D&D, so forgive me if this is stupid....
> 
> I'm suprised nobody has suggested Fox's Cunning. You'll have to waste an action to cast it if you're in combat. If you have the luxury of suspecting impending combat you can buff yourself with it.  1 min/level +4 Int (+2 modifier)




It doesn't stack with the magic item Int. boosting item (headband of intellect I think), hence nobody mentioned it.


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## Staffan (Sep 28, 2005)

Synthetik Fish said:
			
		

> The Expanded Psionists books also weakened Psions in a lot of ways, too (but they were bloody powerful in 3.0)



Huh? I see the complete opposite - psions were weak in 3.0 (multiple ability dependancy, not very many PP, powers don't scale with level, psionic combat) but became one of the more powerful classes in 3.5 (only using Int as a power stat, augmenting powers, removing the liability of psionic combat, better powers, making a lot of powers swift actions to manifest, and so on). I wonder what you see as weakening the psion in 3.5e? Other than some things that have to do with how things are treated in general (shorter buff durations), I see the XPH as powering up psions a *lot*.


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## Mistwell (Sep 28, 2005)

Heightened Spell plus Earth Spell (from Races of Stone) also boosts DC.

If you have a good-aligned party, there is a feat in Book of Exalted Deeds that turns your spells into good-aligned spells that do not harm good-aligned characters, and then another fear in that book that gives a +2 DC to good aligned spells. A pretty potent combo when your fireball doesn't harm your own party AND has a +2 DC on it.


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