# Batman as a D&D character



## Doctor DM (Jun 11, 2007)

That's right, I'm making a fantasy version of Batman to protect the city from thieves (especially my PC's)   

Aaaaaanyway, what do you guys think he should be like? 

What level would he be? What class(es)? What equipment? What would his stats be? Feats?

How would you enworlders design Batman for a Dungeons & Dragons world?

Thanks.


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## Mort (Jun 11, 2007)

Doctor DM said:
			
		

> That's right, I'm making a fantasy version of Batman to protect the city from thieves (especially my PC's)
> 
> Aaaaaanyway, what do you guys think he should be like?
> 
> ...




Those are always hard to quantify - but thinking about it he would be a high level warblade/artificer or since he is a superhero a gestalt warblade/artificer - hm that actually seems like a fun wacky build.


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## Goldmoon (Jun 11, 2007)

I already have a custom-built minature for Batman, although hes armored and has a hammer and shield. I'd upload the pic if I knew how.


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## Meloncov (Jun 12, 2007)

Artificer proably comes closest. In straight combat he can't stand up to others of "his level" (i.e. other super heroes) but with preperation he can stand against just about anyone.


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## IanB (Jun 12, 2007)

Is your goal to emulate the actual abilities of the comic book Batman, or just to retain the flavor?

Monk/artificer would seem to be your best bet for the former. If you just want to keep the flavor, then all sorts of things would work.

I would stay away from the vigilante class, the goofy Batman-esque art aside.


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## Doug McCrae (Jun 12, 2007)

There's a Vigilante PrC in Complete Adventurer. It's the urban crimefighter class and the pic is clearly modelled on Batman but it's not very good.

My 'The Shadow' ripoff is an Urban Ranger from Unearthed Arcana.


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## Caliban (Jun 12, 2007)

Monk/Rogue/Justicar?


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## AnonymousOne (Jun 12, 2007)

Monk/Rogue(Ascetic Rogue for being sneaky and hard hitting)/Artificer


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jun 12, 2007)

I'd find a way to make him wealthy...that's part of Batman's schtick also is that he has the money to put into all his nifty toys and gadgets.  In D&D terms, give him equipment on par with a PC a couple of levels higher than his actual character level.


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## Klaus (Jun 12, 2007)

Monk/Rogue/Artificer or Monk/Urban Ranger/Artificer (with either Ascetic Rogue or Ascetic Hunter) work equally well. Be sure to give him Cloak Dance (XPH) and Intimidating Strike (PHBII). Also, trade in Flurry of Blows for Decisive Strike (PHBII). Treat batarangs as Shuriken. Give him a spool of endless rope (CAdv).

Of course, a Cloak of the Bat is a given.

What you have to take into account is that Batman is so very badass in comics because most of the time he's fighting criminals far beneath his level of skill. He'd be about 15th level and fighting against 8th-level criminals.


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jun 12, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Monk/Rogue/Artificer or Monk/Urban Ranger/Artificer (with either Ascetic Rogue or Ascetic Hunter) work equally well. Be sure to give him Cloak Dance (XPH) and Intimidating Strike (PHBII). Also, trade in Flurry of Blows for Decisive Strike (PHBII). Treat batarangs as Shuriken. Give him a spool of endless rope (CAdv).
> 
> Of course, a Cloak of the Bat is a given.
> 
> What you have to take into account is that Batman is so very badass in comics because most of the time he's fighting criminals far beneath his level of skill. He'd be about 15th level and fighting against 8th-level criminals.




With the exception, of course, of some of his rogues gallery, especially The Joker.


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## Artoomis (Jun 12, 2007)

crazypixie said:
			
		

> With the exception, of course, of some of his rogues gallery, especially The Joker.




Right, but note that he is often defeated.  He wins in the end, of course, but loses quite a few battles along the way.  One of his schticks is that he learns very well from his losses.


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## phindar (Jun 12, 2007)

I've always thought Batman would make a good D&D character going back to that issue where he broke into the villain's hideout, killed the Joker and Penguin and took all their stuff.  Classic Golden Age storytelling, that.

I think when interpreting characters from other sources into games, getting the feel of the character is more important than nailing the actual stats.  If he's an NPC, he's going to have limited screentime, so you need things that get the character across to the players fairly quickly.  Cloak of the Bat, as Klaus mentioned, is a given.  I'd be tempted to go Monk (both for unarmed fighting, the skill selection, and shurikens-- probably the closest stand-in for batarangs in the PHB), as well as rogue (for the sheer number of skills required) and paladin (hey, the paladin's mount makes a good stand in for the Batcycle).


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## Mistwell (Jun 12, 2007)

IanB said:
			
		

> I would stay away from the vigilante class, the goofy Batman-esque art aside.




Why? It's the most applicable prestige class to a batman character in my opinion.  And a lot of prior criticism of the class (like the claim they cannot cast in light armor) turned out to be false (they cast as bards).

I'd say an Urban Ranger/Rogue that goes into the Vigilante class is the right combo for Batman.


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## SteelDraco (Jun 12, 2007)

The trouble with modeling Batman in D&D is that there isn't a really good martial arts system without the trappings of the monk class. Quite a bit of that class is more mystical than I would personally associate with Batman. If you've got a good Martial Artist type class in mind, though, he works fine as a Martial Artist/Rogue. Most of his 'devices' aren't all that mystical - you could use alchemical items for most of them, such as smoke bombs, thunderstones, and such. 'course, I'm more the Batman: Year One and Batman Begins kind of guy. 

He's also a skilled investigator, so you're going to have to put quite a bit into Knowledge (Local), Disguise, Gather Info, Sense Motive, and Search. The Urban Tracking feat is also a must. He's really going to have to have a high Int, as high as possible. The Able Learner feat would also probably be a good idea. Trouble is, at one point or another, Batman's demonstrated the ability to do just about anything. I've seen this represented in super-hero games with, essentially, undefined points, meaning he can shift skill points around to whatever science knowledge is relevant at the time, but there's not really a good way to represent that in D&D.


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## wildstarsreach (Jun 12, 2007)

Actually, this kind of character would be good for severe multiclassing.  Ninja/Fighter/Ranger/Scout/Swashbuckler/Monk with 1 or 2 PrC's that synergize the classes.  Taking some of the feats that synergize the class abilities like Swift Hunter will make him even more effective.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 12, 2007)

> In straight combat he can't stand up to others of "his level" (i.e. other super heroes) but with preperation he can stand against just about anyone.




*What?*

If you look back at his history, he is consistently considered to be one of the top martial artists in the "present-day" DC universe.  Sure, he's not as fast as the Flash, or strong as Superman- in a sense, "Epic" in their abilities- but his fighting _skill_ is top-notch.

The only thing "Epic" about him is his mind.  He's DC's "Worlds Greatest Detective" and if you followed the Dark Knight and similar storylines, he's come up with a contingency plan for defeating every super being he knows of, usually involving gadgets.

But strip guys like the Flash or Supes of their powers, and he's all over them.

My past D&D incarnations of a Batman-type PC have always been pure Rangers with martial arts skills.  Some more current designs have some PrCls thrown in, but regardless of build, he always has wealth and a storehouse of gadgets & gizmos (and yes, some are of magical origin).


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## Darklone (Jun 12, 2007)

Batman is IMHO a UMD dude with ranger/rogue/scout levels. Swift Hunter and similar feats are nice and a lot of skills and more money are a must have.


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## Scratched_back (Jun 12, 2007)

I think at *least* a few levels of Ninja would be in order. Forget the background or flavour of the class, but think of the abilities. All the Ki powers seem (to me at least) to fit well with the way Batman was always mysteriously vanishing.

How many times did criminals turn to face him and he was gone, only to re-appear behind them (ghost-step).

Also, there's an item in the Complete Scoundrel, I think it's called _Rod of Rope_ or something similar, that's pretty much perfect for him. It does everything rope-related that a fighter of crime could want.


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## Shazman (Jun 12, 2007)

Maybe he's a monk/factotum/vigilante with carmadine monk and several fount of inspiration feats.


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## pawsplay (Jun 12, 2007)

Doctor DM said:
			
		

> How would you enworlders design Batman for a Dungeons & Dragons world?
> Thanks.




Probably straight 15s on ability scores except a 20 Int. Monk 2/Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Rogue 15/Duelist 5/Vigilante 10. That makes him a level 36 character, netting him nine ability score increases and twelve basic feats, and giving him millions of gold pieces in wealth. His modest caster level allows him to build an assortment of Wondrous Items. He has both Improved Initiative and Danger Sense, allowing him to begin every combat by sneak attacking four or five guys.

EDIT: And if you're using Skill Tricks, he has pretty much all of them for his class skills.


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## smootrk (Jun 12, 2007)

I would make him Monk/Ninja/Fighter, with his levels weighted mostly towards the Monk levels, then Ninja, and followed up with Fighter levels picking bonus feats that augment the already formidably monk abilities.


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## Klaus (Jun 12, 2007)

SteelDraco said:
			
		

> The trouble with modeling Batman in D&D is that there isn't a really good martial arts system without the trappings of the monk class. Quite a bit of that class is more mystical than I would personally associate with Batman.




You avoid that by stopping Monk before things get too mystical (say, at Monk 3, before Ki Strike [magic]) and use feats like Ascetic Hunter or Ascetic Rogue to amp up the unarmed damage.

Of course, you could also use Book of Exalted Deeds and give him Sacred Vow and Vow of Life (must never knowingly take the life of a sentient being).

As for stats, I'd say Str 18 Dex 19 Con 18 Int 24 Wis 18 Cha 18 (yeah, he's THAT twinked out). For levels, Monk 3/Urban Ranger 9/Artificer 5 seems about right. If you want a strictly nonmagical Batman, replace Artificer with Expert and take Craft, Search, Spot, Move Silently, Hide, Listen, Appraise, Sense Motive, Diplomacy and Intimidate as class skills.

For comparison's sake, I'd put Nightwing at Str 16 Dex 21 Con 17 Int 16 Wis 14 Cha 18; Robin at Str 13 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 18 Wis 15 Cha 16.


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## Doctor DM (Jun 13, 2007)

Ooh, I just thought of something: Oracle. 

She would definitly be a diviner.


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## backbeat (Jun 13, 2007)

I'm all for Monk/Urban Ranger/Artificer with one additional tidbit: The Dark Template.  Hide in plain sight, Darkvision, and wicked bonuses to stealth are so Batman.    

I like the idea of some Bounty hunter PrC, but I haven't seen one that would fit.


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## Klaus (Jun 13, 2007)

backbeat said:
			
		

> I'm all for Monk/Urban Ranger/Artificer with one additional tidbit: The Dark Template.  Hide in plain sight, Darkvision, and wicked bonuses to stealth are so Batman.
> 
> I like the idea of some Bounty hunter PrC, but I haven't seen one that would fit.



 No need for a Dark Template. Artificer allows him to make a cloak that gives him glide, darkvision, low-light vision and a bonus on Hide checks.

Oh, and a belt of many pockets. You KNOW he has one of those.


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## Nyeshet (Jun 14, 2007)

A few levels of either Monk or Ninja, the equivalent Ascetic feat to continue building up unarmed strike damage, and several levels of either Rogue or Urban Ranger (perhaps trading out animal companion and divine casting for something akin to artificer abilities). 

Hmm, the more I think of it, the more I like the idea of a variant Urban Ranger using artificer infusions instead of divine casting and an animal companion. Mix that with a few levels of Monk or Ninja and batman is nearly assured. In fact, you no longer really need ninja, as infusions could mimic much of batman's abilities just as well as any ki based abilities.


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## Nyeshet (Jun 14, 2007)

Doctor DM said:
			
		

> That's right, I'm making a fantasy version of Batman to protect the city from thieves (especially my PC's)



I just realized that we all have been going about this the wrong way! We've all been trying to faithfully recreate Batman for D&D, but if he is going to be a CR appropriate encounter then he _must_ be at least somewhat limited by the PCs themselves - perhaps a couple levels over their current highest level, thus making him a difficult but not insurmountable challenge for them. 

So, what level _are_ your PCs?


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## Naathez (Jun 14, 2007)

It's weird you would ask - I'm currently imagining an Eberron campaign where many superheroes from both Marvel and DC exist and "work" in Sharn.

The idea I had was mostly faithful in what I see as the FLAVOR of Bats. And it was a single class warlock. Stemming from the idea that Batman leverages the FEAR that  criminals have of darkness (they being a "superstitious cowardly lot"), he was based on powers of fear and darkness... plus Hideous Blow (to use eldritch blast in melee) and the evocation that gave him bonuses to jump and tumble. oh, and of course, were he to get that far, the evocation that turned him into a swarm of bats.

I'm the worst min-maxer there is - but at around 6th level, he looked quite cool.


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## Nifft (Jun 14, 2007)

IMHO, Swordsage / Artificer or Warlock / Artificer. He's got a few tricks that he can do all day (including martial arts), but he's also got a lot of one-shot toys.

Cheers, -- N


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## Raven Crowking (Jun 14, 2007)

Gnome Illusionist.  Or is that Beguiler now?    

See, "The Batman" really doesn't exist.  He's an urban myth.  Sometimes he's a phantasm, sometimes he's an image.  Sometimes he's a gnome illusionist with a Hat of Disguise and a crowbar, who pounds some real damage onto the creatures his illusions have rendered unconscious.


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## orcmonk220 (Jun 14, 2007)

Vigilante prestige class anyone? I know you get the spells, but I'm sure you could tweek it....


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## The Blow Leprechaun (Jun 14, 2007)

For the sake of simplicity, I'd simply look at combining the Non-spellcasting Ranger from Complete Warrior with the Urban Ranger from Unearthed Arcana.

Batman's really just a guy in a costume with a ton of money behind him. He's not _that_ strong or dexterous. I'd say 16s in those scores are even appropriate. Definitely an 18 in intelligence, but I'd say he has ~14 wisdom and constitution and 10-12 charisma.

Batman is a superhero, but he's *not* a superhuman. His ability scores should all be fairly reasonable to only slightly higher than your average hero.

I don't think you can give him Bruce Wayne money unless he's just an NPC who shows up, does something cool, then disappears again. Billions and billions will quickly break any semblance of balance for a character - with enough money even a level 1 character could be a difficult encounter.

The rest is really just flavor. He wears a batsuit and likes to hide in the shadows. He's Chaotic Good. If you want to be really cheeky, give him an animal companion that's a robin.

But let's not confuse Batman with Hercules, or Superman, or someone who should have crazy ability scores. Batman's just a guy who worked real hard at what he does.


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## Wolfwood2 (Jun 14, 2007)

The Blow Leprechaun said:
			
		

> But let's not confuse Batman with Hercules, or Superman, or someone who should have crazy ability scores. Batman's just a guy who worked real hard at what he does.




In D&D terms, I would think that translates as being very high level.

So no Batman doesn't have a 20 strength, but he is 20th level and has *above-average wealth* for a 20th level character.


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## The Blow Leprechaun (Jun 14, 2007)

Wolfwood2 said:
			
		

> In D&D terms, I would think that translates as being very high level.
> 
> So no Batman doesn't have a 20 strength, but he is 20th level and has *above-average wealth* for a 20th level character.



I wouldn't put Batman even close to 20th level. I'm not sure I'd even put him at 10th level. I'm thinking 7th level.

In a lot of ways, Batman is like your typical adventuring PC - he loses a lot, has to skulk away and come up with a new plan and try and adjust circumstances to gain victory over an opponent who is significantly more powerful than he is.

The vast majority of Batman's major villains are all seriously flawed characters, and I'd say most of them are more powerful than he is. The Joker is almost certainly _smarter_ than Batman, he's just completely and unmanageably insane.

You have to separate CL from ECL. Batman's probably a CL 7, but if you give him his wealth, his ECL is much higher than that. The Joker's probably a higher CL, but with his insanity an ECL lower than that.

Batman has always been about exploiting the weaknesses in others, not about beating them at their own game. He's not super-powerful, he's tactical and patient. He's the ultimate metagaming PC.


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## Doctor DM (Jun 14, 2007)

Nyeshet said:
			
		

> I just realized that we all have been going about this the wrong way! We've all been trying to faithfully recreate Batman for D&D, but if he is going to be a CR appropriate encounter then he _must_ be at least somewhat limited by the PCs themselves - perhaps a couple levels over their current highest level, thus making him a difficult but not insurmountable challenge for them.
> 
> So, what level _are_ your PCs?




They're 6 at the moment, but I don't really want them to overcome Batman right now. Maybe in a few levels. But right now I really just want him so if they do decide to go raiding, he can show up, beat them down, they can run away, and then probably they won't steal stuff anymore. I'm thinking of making him somewhere around 15, high level, but maybe they'll have a chance of taking him later on in the campaign.


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## Mistwell (Jun 14, 2007)

orcmonk220 said:
			
		

> Vigilante prestige class anyone? I know you get the spells, but I'm sure you could tweek it....




Yeah I have been advocating the same.  It's the right fit.  An Urban Ranger / Monk or Urban Ranger / Rogue going into Vigilante works great.


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## The Blow Leprechaun (Jun 14, 2007)

This is what I get if I combine Urban Ranger with Non-Spellcasting Ranger.

```
Hit Die: d8.
Class Skills
The ranger’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str)
Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Gather Information (Cha), 
Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), 
Knowledge (geography/local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), 
Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), 
Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).

Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier.

Lvl	BAB		Fort	Ref	Will	Special

1st	+1		+2	+2	+0	1st FE Organization, 
						Urban Tracking, 
						wild empathy (at 1/2 level)
2nd	+2		+3	+3	+0	Combat style
3rd	+3		+3	+3	+1	Endurance
4th	+4		+4	+4	+1	Animal companion 
						(no larger than Medium)
5th	+5		+4	+4	+1	2nd FE Organization
6th	+6/+1		+5	+5	+2	Improved combat style, 
						+10' movement
						(when not in Heavy Armor)
7th	+7/+2		+5	+5	+2	
8th	+8/+3		+6	+6	+2	May make Urban Tracking check 
						every 30 minutes without a -5 
						penalty
9th	+9/+4		+6	+6	+3	Evasion
10th	+10/+5		+7	+7	+3	3rd FE Organization
11th	+11/+6/+1	+7	+7	+3	Combat style mastery, 
						As a Standard Action gain a +4 
						bonus to Con, Dex, or Wis for 
						1 minute per Class Level. 
						Useable 1/day.
12th	+12/+7/+2	+8	+8	+4	
13th	+13/+8/+3	+8	+8	+4	Neutralize Poison or 
						Remove Disease 1/day
14th	+14/+9/+4	+9	+9	+4	
15th	+15/+10/+5	+9	+9	+5	4th FE Organization
16th	+16/+11/+6/+1	+10	+10	+5	Freedom of Movement 
						(self only) 1/day
17th	+17/+12/+7/+2	+10	+10	+5	Hide in plain sight 
						(useable in any terrain, 
						including urban)
18th	+18/+13/+8/+3	+11	+11	+6	
19th	+19/+14/+9/+4	+11	+11	+6	
20th	+20/+15/+10/+5	+12	+12	+6	5th FE Organization
```


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## Asha'man (Jun 14, 2007)

Some of you people can't be serious. A portrayal of batman, *the* Batman, of CR/Level less than 15 is simply absurd, considering what he's done. Among other things it's established, in series such as "Hush" and "The Dark Knight Returns", that he can defeat Superman. Even though this requires preparation, rather extreme amounts of such in DKR, and may or may not depend on Superman holding back, Superman is still high Epic, (Around CR 30+, I'd guess) and there's no way for Bats to defeat him if he isn't at least CR 17-20 himself, at a minimum.

On the other hand, this isn't relevant to the Batman *archetype*. All he needs to be is highly competent, but not completely superhuman compared to those he fights. A "batman-style" vigilante I would simply stat as a Rogue 10 (Assuming average joe NPC is level 2-3 like in Eberron. Otherwise add levels as needed, possibly Fighter or Urban Ranger, to maintain a similar edge.) with the Superior Unarmed Strike feat from Tome of Battle. Give him some skill tricks and build him focused on stealth, defense and hit-and-run tactics.


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## The Blow Leprechaun (Jun 14, 2007)

Asha'man said:
			
		

> Some of you people can't be serious. A portrayal of batman, *the* Batman, of CR/Level less than 15 is simply absurd, considering what he's done. Among other things it's established, in series such as "Hush" and "The Dark Knight Returns", that he can defeat Superman. Even though this requires preparation, rather extreme amounts of such in DKR, and may or may not depend on Superman holding back, Superman is still high Epic, (Around CR 30+, I'd guess) and there's no way for Bats to defeat him if he isn't at least CR 17-20 himself, at a minimum.



This extensive preparation Batman needs to beat anyone is exactly my point about his relatively low class level. Just because he can get the better of these opponents doesn't make him their equal. If Superman surprised Batman in a dark alley, it would be over in a round. Batman wins mostly through gadgets and tools, which have _nothing_ at all to do with his personal level - just his ridiculous wealth and the obsessive desire he has for figuring out how to defeat his allies. You just let the Batman NPC have any item you can conceivably come up with and you're done.

Fanboyism aside, the fact of the matter is Batman is not that powerful, in and of himself. Stripped of devices and forced to fight only with his hands he's not going to get that far against anybody of a heroic standard (level 10+).

With enough time to prepare and virtually unlimited wealth, you can do just about anything in D&D, just as in real life.

Just look what happened when Bane got his hands on him.


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## Wolfwood2 (Jun 14, 2007)

The Blow Leprechaun said:
			
		

> Fanboyism aside, the fact of the matter is Batman is not that powerful, in and of himself. Stripped of devices and forced to fight only with his hands he's not going to get that far against anybody of a heroic standard (level 10+).




Based on what?  Sure he's "human" in the comic books but so is a high level barbarian in D&D.  Batman pretty regularly exceeds real world human limits in the comics.  He's so stealthy that normal mooks have no chance of seeing him, so accurate that he never misses, never takes more than minor injuries even when hit (high hitpoints), etc.



> With enough time to prepare and virtually unlimited wealth, you can do just about anything in D&D, just as in real life.
> 
> Just look what happened when Bane got his hands on him.




Bane is an example of prep time on Bane's side.  He ran Batman ragged for days by staging a massive supervillain escape.  After Batman had gone without sleep for three days and fought numerous battles (In D&D terms being exhausted and low on hitpoints), then and only then did Bane (himself capable of mopping the floor with any number of ordinary people) use a special drug that vastly increased his strength and fight Batman personally.

Every encounter since then Bane has given Bats little trouble.


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## The Blow Leprechaun (Jun 14, 2007)

Wolfwood2 said:
			
		

> Based on what?  Sure he's "human" in the comic books but so is a high level barbarian in D&D.  Batman pretty regularly exceeds real world human limits in the comics.  He's so stealthy that normal mooks have no chance of seeing him, so accurate that he never misses, never takes more than minor injuries even when hit (high hitpoints), etc.



You keep making my points: exceeding real world human limits happens in D&D at level 10. Batman at this point, if he's been maxing hide and has 16 base dex, now has at least a +16 to his hide check without even allowing for the copious +dex items he could buy with his limitless wealth. Most of the time, your average goon will already never see him coming. You don't have to be level 20 to achieve this.

The way I look at levels in D&D is this:
Level 10: You're a superhero, if you've been in one town your whole life, you're a legend and even in other towns people in the right circles have probably heard of you.
Level 20: You're a god among men. Everyone, everywhere knows who you are.
Level 30: You're a god, literally.

Look at monsters with the same CR you're proposing for Batman: A black dragon wyrm is gargantuan, has 34d12+238 hit points, 39 AC, and DR 20/magic. This would eat Batman and not even notice him stuck in its teeth.


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## Mistwell (Jun 14, 2007)

Asha'man said:
			
		

> Some of you people can't be serious. A portrayal of batman, *the* Batman, of CR/Level less than 15 is simply absurd, considering what he's done.




And I think that's an unhistorical perspective on the character.

Batman has been around as a character since the 1930s.  He hasn't always been what you perceive him to be in the last decade or so (where he has had power creep based on the newest hit writer or artist wanting him to be more powerful).  For almost his entire career, he's just been a very competent fighter who couldn't actually damage a single eyelash on Superman.

I think less than level 15 is quite realistic for the overwhelming majority of the publication of Batman comics.


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## Doctor DM (Jun 14, 2007)

The Blow Leprechaun said:
			
		

> Look at monsters with the same CR you're proposing for Batman: A black dragon wyrm is gargantuan, has 34d12+238 hit points, 39 AC, and DR 20/magic. This would eat Batman and not even notice him stuck in its teeth.




I think if Batman ever fought a dragon in the comics, he would win. He might need two tries and an elaborate plan, but he could take one.


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## The Blow Leprechaun (Jun 14, 2007)

Doctor DM said:
			
		

> I think if Batman ever fought a dragon in the comics, he would win. He might need two tries and an elaborate plan, but he could take one.



I'm pretty sure if this dragon came upon Batman while he was walking through the forest on his way to an adventure, he wouldn't reach his destination.

All this stuff about Batman needing to run away and make an elaborate plan is _precisely my point_ about overestimating his abilities. I keep pointing this out, but even a level 1 character with unlimited wealth and time to prepare can take out an encounter probably at least ten levels above it. Just because Batman _can_ do it, does _not_ mean he's its equal in terms of raw ability.

That dragon is certainly smarter than Batman, and has a ton more experience (having lived about 20 times as many lifetimes). Probably nearly as much gold, too. If it puts its mind to killing Batman, could he stop it? I don't think so.

I'm not saying Batman would be a CR 7 or CR 10 encounter, I'm saying his character level is around 7-10. As an encounter, he's definitely much higher than that - but it's because of his wealth, not his abilities.


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## Klaus (Jun 14, 2007)

What if Batman met a dragon:

If Batman were chanced upon by a dragon (and mind you, he'd have ungodly Listen checks to detect the dragon), he'd take full defense and attempt to retreat into a defensible position and assess his enemy. Seeing that the dragon has wings and is heavily scaled, he'd devise a way to negate its flight and a way to hit it that wouldn't require bypassing all that armor. It'd be entirely feasible that Batman would carry quite a few "concrete foam" charges, designed to stiffen on impact and hold in place creatures like Killer Croc, Solomon Grundy or Blockbuster. His body armor and cape are designed to withstand attacks that would be comparable to a red dragon's breath weapon (treat it as Energy Resistance [fire, cold, acid and electricity] 15 at least). He'd find a way to negate any special senses displayed by the creature, including flash grenades to blind it, sonic emitters (thunderstones) to deafen it and pepper spray to negate scent (and possibly cause nausea). He'd keep his distance, since he's not stupid enough to get up close to such a creature and punch it. He'd probably use batarangs to deliver a knockout poison (once again, stuff he uses against foes like Bane, etc). He'd avoid open ground like a plague. He could possibly use a blast charge to drop quite a few trees (or cavern ceilings) on top of the dragon.

Batman as he is now has to be *at least* level 15.

He'd probably need Improved Initiative, Hear the Unseen (PHBII), Alertness, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Skill Focus (Intimidate), Investigate (ECS), Educated (ECS), Frightful Presence (d20 Modern), Improved Toughness, Endurance, Diehard, Cloak Dance (XPH), Intimidating Strike (PHBII), Able Learner (RoD)...

The sheer volume of feats he'd need is staggering!


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## Mistwell (Jun 14, 2007)

If Batman came on a Dragon, he would call the rest of the Justice League of America to help out.  In particular, he would be calling up Wonder Woman:












I cannot believe how silly this thread has gotten, so quickly


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## Slaved (Jun 14, 2007)

Warblade 3/Crusader 2/Swordsage 2/Ranger 2/Monk 2 (not taken in that order)

He will need a boomerang so he will be a halfling from the talenta plains (eberron). With a sufficient disguise check and a little help from genetics (the tallest of his race!) he will be doing just fine.

He will have an answer for any melee situation, his ranged options will be pretty good as well, he has tracking, gains his wisdom bonus to his armor class in light or no armor (just get the psychoactive skin which gives you something akin to full plate and make it look just like the batman suit, that way he can change in and out of it so rapidly no one will ever know the difference...). With a few well chosen feats and other items his martial art abilities will be very good, evasion allows him to get out of a lot of blasts that would down a normal foe, and he can look good doing it 24/7.

This also explains why he can go through fights practically unscathed and anyone under his charge is tough to hurt or kill (healing and blocking from the crusader, he also has that cape that counts as a shield so he can use the shield block without having an actual shield in hand).

No, he is not quite epic, but there are certainly tales about him and his incredible skills. Seemingly he is the best at everything he does, or will be as soon as he spends a little time thinking over his options and switching his abilities around to suit the current situation....


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## The Blow Leprechaun (Jun 14, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> What if Batman met a dragon:
> 
> If Batman were chanced upon by a dragon (and mind you, he'd have ungodly Listen checks to detect the dragon), he'd take full defense and attempt to retreat into a defensible position and assess his enemy. Seeing that the dragon has wings and is heavily scaled, he'd devise a way to negate its flight and a way to hit it that wouldn't require bypassing all that armor. It'd be entirely feasible that Batman would carry quite a few "concrete foam" charges, designed to stiffen on impact and hold in place creatures like Killer Croc, Solomon Grundy or Blockbuster. His body armor and cape are designed to withstand attacks that would be comparable to a red dragon's breath weapon (treat it as Energy Resistance [fire, cold, acid and electricity] 15 at least). He'd find a way to negate any special senses displayed by the creature, including flash grenades to blind it, sonic emitters (thunderstones) to deafen it and pepper spray to negate scent (and possibly cause nausea). He'd keep his distance, since he's not stupid enough to get up close to such a creature and punch it. He'd probably use batarangs to deliver a knockout poison (once again, stuff he uses against foes like Bane, etc). He'd avoid open ground like a plague. He could possibly use a blast charge to drop quite a few trees (or cavern ceilings) on top of the dragon.
> 
> ...



Again, pretty much what you have here is him having a bunch of items that solve his problems... And then a list of feats to justify him being a higher level. I could take issue with the feats, one by one, but it really isn't worth going down that road.

I don't think we're ever going to agree on this. I think Batman (on his own) sucks and that Batman + wealth + devices is more handful than most people want. I'm separating the character from his resources, and you don't want to. It's two different approaches to interpreting a character into D&D. I think we also disagree on the relative gradients of power a character possesses at various levels, but I doubt we'll ever see eye to eye on that, either.


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## Ravynsland (Mar 27, 2012)

I'm actually making a campaign right now that's going to be a thinly-veiled analogy to the Bat-mythos.

Batman (AKA the wealthy noble Jal Dorrik) is gonna be a monk3/(urban)ranger7/Shadowy Avenger10 in his 20-level plan. The plan keeps his BAB high and gives him great skills, Ascetic Stalker will give him solid unarmed progression, and Shadowy Avenger (MGP's Quintessential Rogue) could not be more hand-tailored to Batman, complete with alchemy skills, interrogator abilities, and stuff like "Angel of Justice".

Joker (AKA The Mortician) will be a scarred elf sorcerer who mass-murders for the lulz, using grafting to make frankenmooks and scavenging from his victims. He'll even specialize in crowd control and insta-death spells to really enrage the party (especially when he escapes every time).

Commissioner Gordon I'm going to blend with Dragon Age's Zhevran for the lulz, I'll call him Zar'tan and make him a fighter/swashbuckler (Captain of the Guard).

It's gonna be SWEET.


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## kitcik (Mar 27, 2012)

Ravynsland said:


> I'm actually making a campaign right now that's going to be a thinly-veiled analogy to the Bat-mythos.
> 
> Batman (AKA the wealthy noble Jal Dorrik) is gonna be a monk3/(urban)ranger7/Shadowy Avenger10 in his 20-level plan. The plan keeps his BAB high and gives him great skills, Ascetic Stalker will give him solid unarmed progression, and Shadowy Avenger (MGP's Quintessential Rogue) could not be more hand-tailored to Batman, complete with alchemy skills, interrogator abilities, and stuff like "Angel of Justice".
> 
> ...




You might want to consider giving Batman some casting, or Joker's going to mop the floor with him...


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## Samloyal23 (Mar 27, 2012)

Remember, D&D has magic, the real world has tech. Most of the stuff Batman uses tech for can be turned into spells or magic items. A ninja/warlock with a few levels of fighter for extra feats and items like a rod of rope and cloak of elvenkind could do most of what batman does. What level you make him depends on what stage of his career you want to emulate. In the first Nolan movie, he's probably only got a couple of levels of ninja, so you'd add some warlock to that for his gadgets and you're done. If you want to imitate the comic book version in Dark Knight Returns, it is going to be a lot more complicated...


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## Ravynsland (Mar 27, 2012)

kitcik said:


> You might want to consider giving Batman some casting, or Joker's going to mop the floor with him...



Ahhh, he'll be fine. Batman (haven't decided on his in-game name yet) will actually play a small part in the campaign while the PC's handle The Mortician and his mooks. He'll show up if things get too hard and use his detective skillz and gadgets and whatnot!


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 28, 2012)

> haven't decided on his in-game name yet




The Stirge?

The Cloaker?


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## Ravynsland (Mar 28, 2012)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> The Stirge?
> 
> The Cloaker?




Oh, that's a great idea actually... maybe The Cloaker.

He'll probably end up looking something like this, maybe with goggles:


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 28, 2012)

Or look for images of "The Cape" (cancelled TV show).

"The Cape": Why can't TV do superheroes? - The Cape - Salon.com
Dear NBC, my son & I say “please keep ‘The Cape’ on the air!” | Rich Kirkpatrick's Weblog

Like the modern day Batman wears armor under the iconic cloak and shirt, so does The Cape.  The difference is that The Cape's is more like what would be available in a FRPG.


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## paladinm (Mar 28, 2012)

This is why I'm lobbying to merge the thief/rogue and fighter classes.  Is Batman more a rogue or a fighter?  Is he more agile or strong?  Against weaker opponents he's a tank; against stronger opponents he's a blur.  And a lot of the monk's barehand abilities need to become skills/feats.  Think about all the guys in comics that blur the lines between the classes: Bats, Daredevil, even Captain America.


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## Ravynsland (Mar 28, 2012)

Bwahaha! Finished scribing him up. By day, he's Jal Dorrik, charming bachelor and wealthy noble.

But by night, he's The Cloaker, a Monk5/(Urban) Ranger3/Rogue2/Shadowy Avenger5!

This endeavor has proven to me one very important thing. Without house rules that allow exceptionally high stats and a feat every level, he can not be made. Even so he does not quite encompass every aspect of Batman. Mostly he covers the stealthy/fighter/detective/acrobatic aspects, while, unfortunately, being forced to discard the important aspects of mechanic (no Open Lock or Disable Device) or inventor (only one Craft, and it's Alchemy).

The Mortician (Joker) is an eighth level elven Sorcerer, but will increase in level with time.

Zar'tan (Jim Gordon) is an elven Swashbuckler3/Fighter4.

And Norwood Bullokheim (Harvey Bullock) is a dwarven Samurai3.

I think this will be a good campaign. ^_^


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## Samloyal23 (Mar 30, 2012)

Ravynsland said:


> Mostly he covers the stealthy/fighter/detective/acrobatic aspects, while, unfortunately, being forced to discard the important aspects of mechanic (no Open Lock or Disable Device) or inventor (only one Craft, and it's Alchemy).




So give him an assistant/techie with levels of Alchemist and Artificer to make his fancy toys...


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## Samloyal23 (Mar 30, 2012)

Invocations fit for a superhero:
*Grappling Blast (lesser eldritch essence invocation)*Equivalent Level: 4th
_Description:_ You can turn your eldritch blast into a tough, sticky strand. Upon hitting a target the blast wraps around it, entangling it instead of dealing damage. An entangled creature suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls, suffers a -4 penalty to effective Dexterity and must make a concentration check (DC 15) to cast a spell. Failure means the spell is lost. The target can only move at half speed and cannot charge or run. If you control the strand by succeeding at an opposed Strength check while holding it, the entangled creature can only move within the limits that the cord allows. 

The entangled creature can escape with an Escape Artist check (DC 25) that is a full round action. The cord has 3 hp per warlock level and can be burst with a Strength check (DC 30). 

Grappling blast can be used to grab to pull them toward you or used as a rope to climb or swing over obstacles just as a normal rope would be. If you hold onto the blast it lasts until dismissed. If you let go of the blast it dissolves in 1 round/warlock level if it is not dismissed.

*Faerie Steps (lesser invocation)*
Equivalent Level: 4th
_Description:_ For 24 hours you may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at your normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion still affect you. You leave no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked unless you allow it. You gain a +5 bonus on Hide and Move Silenty checks in forest, swamp, and jungle environments.

*Phantom Passage (lesser invocaion)*
Equivalent Level: 4th
_Description:_ For 24 hours you can move through any non-living barrier by making a portion of it incorporeal just long enough for you to slip through it. You can also ignore opponent's shields and armour as you bypass them when you attack with a melee, reach, or unarmed attack. If you move your whole body through a barrier, instead of just a hand or weapon, you leave the barrier a little worse for wear, so it loses 1d6 points of hardness. You cannot reduce an object to a hardness of less than 1.


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## aj3ai (Mar 30, 2012)

I can understand the point about items making Batman seem more powerful than he is... but we are still talking about The motherfin Batman! Regardless of how much more powerful the items he has make him seem, strip him down and he is still at the peak of human ability in both pure physical ability and intelligence.

Almost all the DC characters that surpass him in various facets, surpass him for specific unnatural reasons.

He's a high level character, no doubt about it.


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## aj3ai (Mar 30, 2012)

Ravynsland said:


> Bwahaha! Finished scribing him up. By day, he's Jal Dorrik, charming bachelor and wealthy noble.
> 
> But by night, he's The Cloaker, a Monk5/(Urban) Ranger3/Rogue2/Shadowy Avenger5!
> 
> ...




Interesting, but having Jim Gordon 1 level below The Joker is kinda ludicrous.


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## Samloyal23 (Mar 30, 2012)

Jim Gordon never struck me as the swashbuckler type, more like a dedicated paladin serving as head of the city guard...


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## Viking Bastard (Mar 30, 2012)

Artoomis said:


> Right, but note that he is often defeated.  He wins in the end, of course, but loses quite a few battles along the way.  One of his schticks is that he learns very well from his losses.




This depends on context. In his own titles, yes. In other titles, he never loses. It's like a law.


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## Ravynsland (Mar 30, 2012)

He's only a swashbuckler because I blended his character with Zevran.  And Joker will level up with necessity, he has to stay a few levels above the PC's so I'll gradually increase his level. They'll be soooo angry with me when he starts dishing out spells like Hold Person and the ever-broken Tasha's Hideous Laughter.


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## Binho (Mar 31, 2012)

I could think of batman being a monk2/swashbuckler3/martial rogue15. That plus ascetic rogue and daring outlaw (if you change it to fit martial rogue). Additionally, I would go for able learner and a lot  of UMD. With that you don't need Open Lock, just the spell Knock. The same with the disguise.
Wands or scrolls of fog spells, fire seeds (to simulate bombs), grease and other battle field control spells would be awesome for him. Summon Nature's Ally: dire bat, fear, darkvision, darkness, glitterdust, clairaudience/clairvoyance, spider climb, pyrotechnics, etc.


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## Herobizkit (Apr 1, 2012)

The Batman is a "super-human" in that his deductive reasoning, physical prowess and wealth are far above those of normal. 

But he's still Human.

I'd put him straight Fighter/Rogue, Fighter feats all geared towards Monk-style feats.  He's got a grossly-high Wisdom, so he'll get all the pre-req's.

Then he's got 'bat'-ass armor and magical gear.  Fantasy Bats would have some kind of mechanical horse or maybe a flying mount.

... or maybe he's an Aristocrat/Expert...?


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## Samloyal23 (Apr 1, 2012)

Herobizkit said:


> The Batman is a "super-human" in that his deductive reasoning, physical prowess and wealth are far above those of normal.
> 
> But he's still Human.
> 
> ...




What would the batmobile be in a fantasy setting? I'm thinking it is a magical chariot that conjures phantom mounts to pull it with built-in magic items similar to his modern tech toys...


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## Endur (Apr 1, 2012)

Doctor DM said:


> That's right, I'm making a fantasy version of Batman to protect the city from thieves (especially my PC's)
> 
> Aaaaaanyway, what do you guys think he should be like?
> 
> ...




Ninja class from Best of Dragon vol. 1.

High level, maximum gold, lots of magic items.


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