# Women venting about men



## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 7, 2005)

In the interest of equal time (and from the suggestion made by Sniffles) I, a man, invite all women who visit ENWorld to vent their frustrations with our half of the species. 

I will now step aside and let the venting begin.  Enjoy.


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## Sebastian Francis (Jul 7, 2005)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> In the interest of equal time (and from the suggestion made by Sniffles) I, a man, invite all women who visit ENWorld to vent their frustrations with our half of the species.
> 
> I will now step aside and let the venting begin.  Enjoy.




There are women on Enworld?


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## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 7, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> There are women on Enworld?




Yup.


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## Jonny Nexus (Jul 7, 2005)

Well this is going well.


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## reveal (Jul 7, 2005)

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> Well this is going well.




They're just playing hard to get. 

*i keed*i keed*


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## Sebastian Francis (Jul 7, 2005)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> Yup.




Hmmm.  Not to be difficult, but how do you *know* they are women? On the internet, the only thing we know about people is what they choose to tell us.  And because we don't know the people in the first place, we have no real reason to believe what they tell us.

For example, am I a woman? Or a man? White? Black? Asian? Young? Old? You really have no way of knowing.

Just a thought.


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## reveal (Jul 7, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> Hmmm.  Not to be difficult, but how do you *know* they are women? On the internet, the only thing we know about people is what they choose to tell us.  And because we don't know the people in the first place, we have no real reason to believe what they tell us.
> 
> For example, am I a woman? Or a man? White? Black? Asian? Young? Old? You really have no way of knowing.
> 
> Just a thought.




Because they said they were. I have no way of knowing if you're an alien from Mars but if you told me you were an Earthling I'd believe you because you've given me no reason to doubt you.


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## Hijinks (Jul 7, 2005)

Ok I can start  

Why do men endanger their relationships by not talking about things that are bothering their women?

I realize it's a big can o' worms to open up about "talking" and "communication" in relationships, but...

If I tell my SO that something bothers me and I want to talk about it, why would he then avoid talking about it?  This pushes the woman away and makes her feel she's not wanted.  I realize men are taught from day one to internalize their feelings, but I think a lot of relationships would be helped by men realizing that women NEED to talk about things.  Men don't have to communicate back a whole lot, just listen and try to see her point of view.  And I'm not talking about "which dress should I wear, the red or the black?"  I'm talking about relationship issues, i.e. "I'm feeling neglected" or "Should we have another baby" and so on.


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## cuteasaurus (Jul 7, 2005)

I don't have any specific gripes I guess, though that perhaps is due to the fact that my SO is also "on the boards..."


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## freebfrost (Jul 7, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> If I tell my SO that something bothers me and I want to talk about it, why would he then avoid talking about it?  This pushes the woman away and makes her feel she's not wanted.  I realize men are taught from day one to internalize their feelings, but I think a lot of relationships would be helped by men realizing that women NEED to talk about things.  Men don't have to communicate back a whole lot, just listen and try to see her point of view.  And I'm not talking about "which dress should I wear, the red or the black?"  I'm talking about relationship issues, i.e. "I'm feeling neglected" or "Should we have another baby" and so on.



You just answered this question yourself.  We internalize feelings and deal with it mentally first.

Actually, a lot of these issues could easily be solved if women would realize that deep down, men are simple creatures.  Really.  You think we are much more complex than we truly are.

You aren't really asking us to *talk* about having another baby - you want us to empathize with your current feelings on the topic, whereas we go off and think about it, then will give you our list of pro's and con's for the whole thing.  But you really didn't want that, did you?

Also, we don't really process surprises very well - ask us about drinking stories, or football scores, or something we deal with on a regular basis, and we are fine.  Blindside us with something you've been thinking about on the side or have just "mentioned once or twice," and we'll go into shutdown mode.

Simple.


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## freebfrost (Jul 7, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> Hmmm.  Not to be difficult, but how do you *know* they are women? On the internet, the only thing we know about people is what they choose to tell us.  And because we don't know the people in the first place, we have no real reason to believe what they tell us.
> 
> For example, am I a woman? Or a man? White? Black? Asian? Young? Old? You really have no way of knowing.
> 
> Just a thought.



I'd say you were a thirty-something  Canadian male who thinks too much about Aquaman.

But that could be your secret enWorld cover story too.  Drat!


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## GlassJaw (Jul 7, 2005)

> Why do men endanger their relationships by not talking about things that are bothering their women?




 - Huh huh huh, feelings.
 - Yeah, yeah.  Uhh, feelings like suck and stuff.
 - Oh yeah, huh huh huh.

 

That's a gross over simplification but you get my point.


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## cuteasaurus (Jul 7, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> Hmmm. Not to be difficult, but how do you *know* they are women? On the internet, the only thing we know about people is what they choose to tell us. And because we don't know the people in the first place, we have no real reason to believe what they tell us.
> 
> For example, am I a woman? Or a man? White? Black? Asian? Young? Old? You really have no way of knowing.
> 
> Just a thought.




I wouldn't lie... *insert angelic face here*


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## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 7, 2005)

cuteasaurus said:
			
		

> I don't have any specific gripes I guess, though that perhaps is due to the fact that my SO is also "on the boards..."




Chicken!  *Bok! Bok!*


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## reveal (Jul 7, 2005)

Here's my experience:

When my wife and I want to talk, we listen to each other. No matter what we say, we listen. My wife might care less what I'm babbling about, but she still listens and vice versa. If a guy "shuts down" when his wife starts talking to him about what she thinks is important, that's bad because, to me, it shows a lack of respect. It the girl doesn't listen to his "war stories" simply because she finds them uninteresting, that also shows a lack of respect.

For example, my wife is really getting into exercise and is talking about training for a "sprint" triathalon happening in August 2006. I love her and will support her. But when she tells me about the little details, I honestly could care less. But it's important to her, ergo, it's important to me and I listen.

OTOH, I am participating in Ceramic DM right now. My wife may not care about _why_ I wrote the stories the way I did but she still takes the time to listen to me and reads my stuff not because she "loves my stories and can't get enough" but because it's important to me, ergo, it's important to her.


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## Hijinks (Jul 7, 2005)

> You aren't really asking us to *talk* about having another baby - you want us to empathize with your current feelings on the topic, whereas we go off and think about it, then will give you our list of pro's and con's for the whole thing. But you really didn't want that, did you?



 Um, yeah, actually I DO want a list of pros and cons about what HE thinks about the topic, and what HE feels would be the right solution.  I'll say what I think, and I'll listen to what he thinks.  I don't want him to just smile and nod and say "whatever you think is right, honey."  If it's a serious relationship issue, I want his input, not just his ear.


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## cuteasaurus (Jul 7, 2005)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> Chicken! *Bok! Bok!*




I guess he is half-way across the country...let the complaining begin!  J/K...I actually don't really have that many gripes, though the more "universal" problem I have with guys is actually the "laid-back attitude."  Ok, let me explain... I'm a pretty high strung person (I can hear ppl who know me laughing ) because I tend to worry about a lot of things.  I like to plan ahead and know where things are going.  My SO is always telling me to "not worry so much."  Ok, that's fine, perhaps even good advice.  But, it seems that the alternative these boys are advocating is actually not worrying about anything.  They'll just say "things will work out."  Yes, I'm sure they will, but I'd rather not be caught unprepared and sometimes that little bit of worry will get you going and help you get things done...yknow?  I'm not being ridiculous for worrying and planning and while I could probably worry a little less, to say that worrying isn't useful seems silly.  

A general boy gripe (not one for my SO)- that "successful" guys only want to date younger, less intelligent women.  For example, I go to a somewhat prominent med school and there were numerous sketches over orientation weekend about how saying you go there will help you get chicks if you're a guy.   However, if you're a woman, then saying you go there actually can help drive away guys.  I don't get it.  Wouldn't you (if you were a guy) WANT to date someone who understands what you're saying?


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## cuteasaurus (Jul 7, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> Um, yeah, actually I DO want a list of pros and cons about what HE thinks about the topic, and what HE feels would be the right solution. I'll say what I think, and I'll listen to what he thinks. I don't want him to just smile and nod and say "whatever you think is right, honey." If it's a serious relationship issue, I want his input, not just his ear.




ditto...well-said.


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## reveal (Jul 7, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> Um, yeah, actually I DO want a list of pros and cons about what HE thinks about the topic, and what HE feels would be the right solution.  I'll say what I think, and I'll listen to what he thinks.  I don't want him to just smile and nod and say "whatever you think is right, honey."  If it's a serious relationship issue, I want his input, not just his ear.




When my wife wanted to talk about having a baby, I kept saying "Not now. Let's talk about it later." I was scared witless to have a kid, much less talk about it. I finally broke through my fears, however, and we discussed it. We now have a 3 year old son whom I adore. 

The point is, just because he's not talking it doesn't mean he doesn't _want_ to talk. It may just be that he's scared and doesn't feel he's ready. But us men have a lot harder time verbalizing our feelings than women seem to.


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## Abstraction (Jul 7, 2005)

Men are not allowed to tell the truth to women. I know, I want to. But when I'm sitting there lost in thought and you say, "Whatcha thinking about?" I just about guarantee that you will not be happy if I tell the truth. You want to know what I've really been thinking about for the last ten minutes? Kung fu.


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## reveal (Jul 7, 2005)

Abstraction said:
			
		

> Men are not allowed to tell the truth to women. I know, I want to. But when I'm sitting there lost in thought and you say, "Whatcha thinking about?" I just about guarantee that you will not be happy if I tell the truth. You want to know what I've really been thinking about for the last ten minutes? Kung fu.




 

I'm picturing the scene in the Simpsons where Homer learns that Troy McClure doesn't really want to marry Selma. During the ceremony, it's asked if anyone has any objections. The camera pans the crowd and focuses in on Homer, who's singing the Garry Glitter song "Da da da da da HEY da da da da" to himself.


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## Abstraction (Jul 7, 2005)

Another guy thing. We think things through rationally. We don't analyze further than we rationally have to. So, if you ask me which dress you should wear, but I know you well enough that whatever I pick you'll pick something different, I'll say, "whatever you want, dear". Same with which movie to see, which restaurant to eat at, whether we should have kids. Or, put another way, when I know that I care about my own opinion less than you care about yours. Sure, I would prefer to go eat at X, but I am just as happy going where you want to, so I simply say, "whatever you decide is fine".

Men also look at what they are doing _right now_. Women tend to worry about many things which may or may not happen constantly. A man's attitude is that, yes I know we are short on money for the month, but the thing I am doing _right now_ is rewiring the stereo. I will take care of the money when that is what I am doing _right now_.

By the way, cuteasaurus, a gripe of guys is that young, pretty women only want to date successful guys. The stereotypes cut both ways.


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## Seonaid (Jul 7, 2005)

Are gay men allowed to comment here?


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## reveal (Jul 7, 2005)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> Are gay men allowed to comment here?




I didn't start the thread, but I welcome any comments here.


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## Hijinks (Jul 7, 2005)

Yeah it doesn't help when I hear women rappers on the radio rapping about "bling bling" and "get your hands on his cash" and all that.  Pfft.  Those women definitely give men the wrong idea.

Sadly, one thing I've learned about men from past relationships is to never live together until marriage.  I was left financially destitute by a man who decided on the entire spur of the moment that he wasn't happy in the relationship.  Of course, when another woman that you just met is saying "hey, dump her and go out with me," then men seem to evaluate their relationship anew, whereas if there isn't another woman there to tempt them, they don't consider leaving.

Of course, now I would never let myself be left financially destitute by a man, because no matter what I'd always make sure I had 3 months of living expenses in the bank.  But at the time, I trusted him when he said he would honor our lease, even if we broke up (he didn't) and would help me find a new place if we did break up (he didn't do that either).  But I will never ever live with a man again without the financial security of a ring on my finger.  And I would never recommend to another woman to move in with a man without being married, because, in my own past experience, men find it much easier to throw away a relationship if there's no marriage involved.

I realize that men internalize feelings, and if a relationship breaks up, it's probably because the man's been thinking he's unhappy for a while but didn't want to speak up until he had another place (or another woman) to go to.  But to us women, many times when the relationship sours, it's out of the blue, and we have no idea what we did wrong.

It's a vicious cycle.  Frequently, women get baggage and emotional issues because men they were previously with dump them for no reason that they can see.  Then in their next relationship, the women become clingy and desperately want to keep ahold of their man, which drives him away even quicker.  It's just a vast difference between men and women.


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## freebfrost (Jul 7, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> Um, yeah, actually I DO want a list of pros and cons about what HE thinks about the topic, and what HE feels would be the right solution.  I'll say what I think, and I'll listen to what he thinks.  I don't want him to just smile and nod and say "whatever you think is right, honey."  If it's a serious relationship issue, I want his input, not just his ear.



I never said we'd tell you what we _feel_ at this point, just that we'd likely have a list of logical ideas on the subject.  Your statement is a perfect example of women not understanding or listening to men.  You projected your own ideas of us discussing our "feelings" into the discussion when I never said that.

And that's my point.   

It takes far longer for us to process how we feel on a subject.  We have to analyze it to death and then make "the right decision," which is a fancy way of saying what we think is most likely to cause us the least amount of trouble amongst the choices provided.


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## Seonaid (Jul 7, 2005)

Well, I'm not gay and I'm not a man, but I was curious. 

Personally, I would much rather discuss pros and cons than feelings and rationalize instead of go on how I feel. I am deathly afraid of commitment and don't like to even talk about it or use the "girlfriend" and "boyfriend" and "significant other" terms. I've never been on a "date," nor have I had a "boyfriend" or "significant other." I don't empathize well (though I'm told I listen well, so maybe I do empathize). I don't stress about things over which I have no control. I'd rather watch football (or do anything, really) than shop. I am completely color-uncoordinated (it's pretty much luck and listening to what others tell me that gets me dressed appropriately in the mornings). All in all, I don't really understand women.


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## freebfrost (Jul 7, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> Yeah it doesn't help when I hear women rappers on the radio rapping about "bling bling" and "get your hands on his cash" and all that.  Pfft.  Those women definitely give men the wrong idea.
> 
> Sadly, one thing I've learned about men from past relationships is to never live together until marriage.  I was left financially destitute by a man who decided on the entire spur of the moment that he wasn't happy in the relationship.



  We call these "jerks."



> But I will never ever live with a man again without the financial security of a ring on my finger.  And I would never recommend to another woman to move in with a man without being married, because, in my own past experience, men find it much easier to throw away a relationship if there's no marriage involved.



If you marry one of the jerks, it won't matter whether you are married or not.  

And its most certainly not fair to lump all men into this mindset because of your experiences on the subject.  If I ever faced having to remarry, I would be on the other end of the spectrum, and wouldn't consider any woman who didn't want to move in together first.  In my experience the lessons learned tell you if you are ready for a life together or not.  But I'm not going to lump all women together because of my viewpoint.



> I realize that men internalize feelings, and if a relationship breaks up, it's probably because the man's been thinking he's unhappy for a while but didn't want to speak up until he had another place (or another woman) to go to.  But to us women, many times when the relationship sours, it's out of the blue, and we have no idea what we did wrong.



So you have no idea why the above-mentioned jerk left you?  I find that hard to believe.  

Was it sex, money, nagging, or not paying him enough attention?  Because it is one of those reasons.

Men are *not* complex beings.   :\


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## sniffles (Jul 7, 2005)

Despite my call for women to rant about men, I have nothing to rant about.  My fiancee and my male friends are all atypical examples of masculinity.  They do not like sports.  They are not afraid to cry. They watch "chick" movies with their wives and don't complain about it afterward. 

The only thing I can think of to complain about at the moment is why they are all so much better at video games than I am.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jul 7, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> Hmmm.  Not to be difficult, but how do you *know* they are women?




Ahh cause I've seen Lady Shatterstone naked?


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## Darth K'Trava (Jul 7, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> There are women on Enworld?





::bitch-slaps Sebastian Francis::   

Yup. There's actually women here...


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## Darth K'Trava (Jul 7, 2005)

cuteasaurus said:
			
		

> I don't have any specific gripes I guess, though that perhaps is due to the fact that my SO is also "on the boards..."





All the more reason to gripe about him....   


Guys who play with your emotions and then, after hooking you in, say it's a game. 

Guys who act interested in "something more" and then say "we're just friends".

Guys who act like it's more important that you hurt their feelings and don't give a damn about yours.

Yes. Guys suck. They're idiots.


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## Abstraction (Jul 7, 2005)

"Should we have a baby? Okay, roll a d20. You want high."


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## Darth K'Trava (Jul 7, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> Hmmm.  Not to be difficult, but how do you *know* they are women? On the internet, the only thing we know about people is what they choose to tell us.  And because we don't know the people in the first place, we have no real reason to believe what they tell us.
> 
> For example, am I a woman? Or a man? White? Black? Asian? Young? Old? You really have no way of knowing.
> 
> Just a thought.




Why should I lie about my gender? Is there something I should hide about it? Am I afraid losers on this board will "hit on me"? Nope. I don't see anything worth lying about regarding who I am. Nor any reason to hide the fact I'm a woman. And I've had one guy hit on me a few months ago. Not ashamed of that either...   It's fun gettin' hit on by a "deity"....


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## Darth K'Trava (Jul 7, 2005)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> Are gay men allowed to comment here?





Sure! Go ahead!


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jul 7, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Yes. Guys suck. They're idiots.




I would say pigs too but why insult pigs. 

I like to think I'm a good husband, but I know I'm not perfect just like I know my wife isn't perfect, but like anything I could be a better husband...  like when my wife says, "Your so male" I shouldn't be laughing but I do.  

I think my big issues are "me time," "we time,"  and making sure I get enough in of both...

My wife is also like cuteasaurus, very worrisome, basically if she not worried about something than something is wrong while I'm so laid back I'm nearly dead but somehow we manage to make it work.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jul 7, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> And I've had one guy hit on me a few months ago. Not ashamed of that either...   It's fun gettin' hit on by a "deity"....




Hey baby...  

Okay, I'm out of the thread…  I’m not helping and I know it.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 7, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> ... cuteasaurus...




So who wants to stat this thing up?


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## Darth K'Trava (Jul 7, 2005)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> Well, I'm not gay and I'm not a man, but I was curious.
> 
> Personally, I would much rather discuss pros and cons than feelings and rationalize instead of go on how I feel. I am deathly afraid of commitment and don't like to even talk about it or use the "girlfriend" and "boyfriend" and "significant other" terms. I've never been on a "date," nor have I had a "boyfriend" or "significant other." I don't empathize well (though I'm told I listen well, so maybe I do empathize). I don't stress about things over which I have no control. I'd rather watch football (or do anything, really) than shop. I am completely color-uncoordinated (it's pretty much luck and listening to what others tell me that gets me dressed appropriately in the mornings). All in all, I don't really understand women.




 

You sound like a friend of mine, asking me one morning at a con what shirt would go best with khaki pants....  :\ Honestly, how he dresses when he's at home to go to work every morning.... I guess he asks his mother each day what to wear.....   

I may be a woman but I don't really care to shop. Shocking, yes. But that's the truth. If I shop, it's in "bursts" and I don't take hours to shop at all. Mostly when I go to the mall, it's for books, not clothes!   I love watching football (GO PANTHERS!) and college basketball (GO HEELS!) but hate with a loathing passion, soap operas. Can't stand that tripe.


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## Darth K'Trava (Jul 7, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Ahh cause I've seen Lady Shatterstone naked?




You're a funny little man....


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## reveal (Jul 7, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> You're a funny little man....




Not according to Lady Shatterstone. HEY-O!


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jul 7, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> You're a funny little man....




Thanks, I try.


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## MaxKaladin (Jul 7, 2005)

Abstraction said:
			
		

> "Should we have a baby? Okay, roll a d20. You want high."



There's a story for the kid when he/she gets older...

"Mommy, where did I come from?"

"Well dear, it all started when I got a natural 20..."


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jul 7, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Not according to Lady Shatterstone. HEY-O!




Well, yeah the little part has got to go.    (I'm mean that in a nonsexual content...  I'm 6'4" LS is 5'4" Maybe 5'5" on a good day.)


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## Jesus_marley (Jul 7, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Ahh cause I've seen Lady Shatterstone naked?





Hey! that was a misleading link! there wasn't anyone naked under there!


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 7, 2005)

Jesus_marley said:
			
		

> Hey! that was a misleading link! there wasn't anyone naked under there!



 No, no, no. You read the link wrong. Only when the 'naked' is the linked word do you get the actual nakedness. Otherwise, just text.


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 7, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> ...I realize men are taught from day one to internalize their feelings, but I think a lot of relationships would be helped by men realizing that women NEED to talk about things...




Uh...no.

Women don't NEED to...they are simply likewise  "taught from day one" to do so. Just like men. There's nothing special about a womans _desires _that place them on some higher plane than mens.



			
				Hijinks said:
			
		

> Men don't have to communicate back a whole lot, just listen and try to see her point of view.  And I'm not talking about "which dress should I wear, the red or the black?"  I'm talking about relationship issues, i.e. "I'm feeling neglected" or "Should we have another baby" and so on.




I agree, that stuff needs to be talked about, but there have been several women I've dated who placed "where do I stand in this relationship" and "I'm feeling neglected" (both examples of fairly non-concrete discussions) on the same level as The stuff you mention up there.

And it's not. Women are just socialized to think that everything that comes into their head is profound. 

Guys don't share that conceit. We are task vs process oriented.


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 7, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> All the more reason to gripe about him....
> 
> 
> Guys who play with your emotions and then, after hooking you in, say it's a game.
> ...




Those are some of the exact same complaints I hear made about women from guys I've known



			
				DarthVirgo said:
			
		

> Yes. Guys suck. They're idiots.




The whole world is largely made up of idiots who suck


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 8, 2005)

Abstraction said:
			
		

> Men are not allowed to tell the truth to women. I know, I want to. But when I'm sitting there lost in thought and you say, "Whatcha thinking about?" I just about guarantee that you will not be happy if I tell the truth. You want to know what I've really been thinking about for the last ten minutes? Kung fu.





LOL Hail brother and well-met

My wife has stopped asking "what are you thinking" when I am just kind of sitting there quietly. She used to a _lot_ and I found it very aggravating, and she found myanswer "nothing" to be wholly unsatisfactory.

So I started telling her.

"That Episode of Gilligans Island with the Japanese Guy in the Mini-Sub"
"What the old 20 Dollar bill looked like"
"Imagining Paige Davis naked"
"A Boxing PPV from last year"
"How difficult it would be to hook an electric lighter into the BBQ"
"William Shatner's cover of 'Common People'..."

After about 3 or 4 months of realizing that there was virtually _nothing_ that I would absently think about that was particularly profound, the question kind of faded away.

I think we are both happier now. Her curiosity has been sated and my daydreaming has been revealed for what it is: inconsequential.


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## Ao the Overkitty (Jul 8, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> Hmmm.  Not to be difficult, but how do you *know* they are women?




Well... I think I'd notice if my fiancee was a guy.

Alternatively, I've met a few of them at gamedays and other get-togethers.


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 8, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> My wife is also like cuteasaurus, very worrisome, basically if she not worried about something than something is wrong while I'm so laid back I'm nearly dead but somehow we manage to make it work.




We are basically the same. I think, if left to her own devices, my wife would live her life in a constant state of percieved crisis.

It sounds ridiculous, but one of my main controbutions to making our thing work is to go "look, calm down. This isn't a big deal" about stuff that, well, _isn't._


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jul 8, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> After about 3 or 4 months of realizing that there was virtually _nothing_ that I would absently think about that was particularly profound, the question kind of faded away.




5 years and counting...  I honestly answer yet she seems, and is, interested.   

Of course imaging someone naked, yeah, we don't tell her about that anymore...


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## devilbat (Jul 8, 2005)

> I'd say you were a thirty-something Canadian male who thinks too much about Aquaman.




Dude, why did you have to bring me in to this?


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jul 8, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> We are basically the same. I think, if left to her own devices, my wife would live her life in a constant state of percieved crisis.




Well the wife is in overtime right now....  I'm getting out of the service.  I have like 32 days left, I really don't know how many days I have left (people at work count for me cause I'm so laid back), I'm going to be unemployed, minus unemployment, we are going to my home Kansas City, MO.  We have free room and board, her work will transfer her and she will still be full time.

All in all it’s not that bad, but well, I can see the look and get asked, "aren't you worried?" (Nope, the important stuff is covered, cannot change what is going on, and everything is minor.)


----------



## sniffles (Jul 8, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> LOL Hail brother and well-met
> 
> My wife has stopped asking "what are you thinking" when I am just kind of sitting there quietly. She used to a _lot_ and I found it very aggravating, and she found myanswer "nothing" to be wholly unsatisfactory.
> 
> ...




Y'know, I've never undestood that whole "what are you thinking" behavior.  If someone asked me what I was thinking I'd probably come up with some equally lame stuff, so I wouldn't be surprised if my man told me some of those things you mention, Tef.  I also don't understand the hypothetical question thing ("honey, if I died tomorrow, would you remarry?"), or the terrifying "honey, does this make me look fat?".  Like I would trust a man's opinion about my appearance when I'm not wearing revealing lingerie!   

My ex-husband used to tell me he was literally thinking about nothing.  But then he was a chronic paranoid schizophrenic. I don't generally want to know what my man is thinking about when he's just sitting pensively.  He's probably thinking about porn.


----------



## reveal (Jul 8, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> Y'know, I've never undestood that whole "what are you thinking" behavior.  If someone asked me what I was thinking I'd probably come up with some equally lame stuff, so I wouldn't be surprised if my man told me some of those things you mention, Tef.  I also don't understand the hypothetical question thing ("honey, if I died tomorrow, would you remarry?"), or the terrifying "honey, does this make me look fat?".  Like I would trust a man's opinion about my appearance when I'm not wearing revealing lingerie!
> 
> My ex-husband used to tell me he was literally thinking about nothing.  But then he was a chronic paranoid schizophrenic. I don't generally want to know what my man is thinking about when he's just sitting pensively.  He's probably thinking about porn.




Honey, do these pants make my butt look big?

No, your butt makes your butt look big.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jul 8, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> ("honey, if I died tomorrow, would you remarry?")




Of course!  How else would the laundry get done.   [J/K sorta.  I got banned from the laundry early on.]



			
				sniffles said:
			
		

> Like I would trust a man's opinion about my appearance when I'm not wearing revealing lingerie!




Actually, I'm rather good when it comes to picking clothes and jewelry…  Jewelry, just cause I have an eye for “unique yet simple elegance” and clothes, well my wife stresses about her appearance a lot so I’ve become good a telling her what and what doesn’t work for her.  

My wife also hates to shop, won’t buy herself something, so I pretty much tag along so she doesn’t come home with nothing, minus a frown, and a story of how cute something was 3 hours later.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 8, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> ("honey, if I died tomorrow, would you remarry?")




This one is easy, I snuffed it the first time it came up..."_I don't know? How hot is she_?"

Though my father insists I should've said something like "_No, she doesn't believe in marriage_"



			
				Sniffles said:
			
		

> or the terrifying "honey, does this make me look fat?"..




Equally easy. "_no, it sure doesn't_". 

I will never understand that question. What _other_ answer can you give? She's either fat or she isn't. What does the item of clothing have to do with anything?

If she's fat, it's not the clothes doing it. If she's not fat, the clothes aren't going to mess that up.

Also, it's a trap So I try not to fall for it.



> My ex-husband used to tell me he was literally thinking about nothing.  But then he was a chronic paranoid schizophrenic. I don't generally want to know what my man is thinking about when he's just sitting pensively.  He's probably thinking about porn.




I should've added that to my list above


----------



## drothgery (Jul 8, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> ::bitch-slaps Sebastian Francis::
> 
> Yup. There's actually women here...




It's in the single-digits, percentage-wise, and therefore statistically insignificant


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Jul 8, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Well, yeah the little part has got to go.    (I'm mean that in a nonsexual content...  I'm 6'4" LS is 5'4" Maybe 5'5" on a good day.)




"Size matters not" -- Yoda


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Jul 8, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Those are some of the exact same complaints I hear made about women from guys I've known
> 
> 
> 
> The whole world is largely made up of idiots who suck





Never said it went only one way...   



And yup. The world is full of idiots.


----------



## Hijinks (Jul 8, 2005)

Oh dang, my bad.  I thought we were being invited to rant about men.  Since I'm obviously wrong about everything, I'll bow out of this thread.  *shrug*

If you want us to be honest and rant about men, then don't jump on us for doing it.



> its most certainly not fair to lump all men into this mindset because of your experiences on the subject




Y'know, I've kept mum in the other threads about "all women lie" and "women send mixed signals, because they can," because I took it to be the poster's person opinion.  Guess I'm not being allowed the same courtesy.

*shrugs and leaves the thread*


----------



## reveal (Jul 8, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> "Size matters not" -- Yoda




"Mmmmm... Wookie-style you like." -- Yoda


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Jul 8, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> "Mmmmm... Wookie-style you like." -- Yoda





I guess that should be left up to Lady Shatterstone's opinion, ya think?


----------



## Thotas (Jul 8, 2005)

Hijinks left???  But I had a question for her, 'cause there's something relating to her topic that I completely can't figure out -- and it sounded like she could answer it for me.  Dang.


----------



## mac1504 (Jul 8, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I'm getting out of the service. _[snip]_ I'm going to be unemployed, minus unemployment, we are going to my home Kansas City, MO.




Have times changed? I received unemployment for a few weeks when I got out of the service.


----------



## Sebastian Francis (Jul 8, 2005)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> Are gay men allowed to comment here?




How do we know if they're gay?


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 8, 2005)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> Are gay men allowed to comment here?




Why the heck not!


----------



## Sebastian Francis (Jul 8, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Why should I lie about my gender? Is there something I should hide about it? Am I afraid losers on this board will "hit on me"? Nope. I don't see anything worth lying about regarding who I am. Nor any reason to hide the fact I'm a woman. And I've had one guy hit on me a few months ago. Not ashamed of that either...   It's fun gettin' hit on by a "deity"....




It isn't that you are necessarily "lying" about your gender, but it is certainly possible that you are a male who is assuming a female persona on the internet merely because adopting a different persona can be both interesting and amusing.  

After all, this group is comprised of *role-players*, right?


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 8, 2005)

Abstraction said:
			
		

> You want to know what I've really been thinking about for the last ten minutes? Kung fu.




This has to be about the funniest...and truest...statement I've seen on here in ages.

The last time my wife asked me what I was thinking about (and this was after a pretty serious talk where the "awkward silence" ensued), my answer was, "If I ever meet paleontologist Robert Bakker I'm going to hit him with a stick over his theory that ceratosaurs were aquatic."

For the record, that was NOT the answer she wanted.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Jul 8, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> It isn't that you are necessarily "lying" about your gender, but it is certainly possible that you are a male who is assuming a female persona on the internet merely because adopting a different persona can be both interesting and amusing.
> 
> After all, this group is comprised of *role-players*, right?




::rolls eyes::


If I told you I wore a Belt of Gender Changing, would that make you happy? [/sarcasm]


----------



## Chimera (Jul 8, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> I think, if left to her own devices, my wife would live her life in a constant state of percieved crisis.




Sounds somewhat like my ex-wife.  If there wasn't a crisis going on, she was sure to create one somewhere.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jul 8, 2005)

mac1504 said:
			
		

> Have times changed? I received unemployment for a few weeks when I got out of the service.



No, sorry I can how you would read it that way.  I meant that I wouldn't have a paycheck expect for unemployment and no really the military has it pretty good when comes to unemployment.  We can file in any state we want as long as we do it in person and are able and willing to work.  (I’ll be filing in Washington State and going back home.  Washington’s states unemployment is about 130 dollars more a week than Missouri.)


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jul 8, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> After all, this group is comprised of *role-players*, right?




Yes we are but honesty I think you've gone on this tangent long enough.


----------



## Aeson (Jul 8, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> How do we know if they're gay?



The rainbow flag on their car? I kid I kid.


----------



## Aeson (Jul 8, 2005)

No matter how many rants we post it wont change anything. Men and women will still lie. Women will still want the bad boys and the hot guys with big peepees. Men will still want the Large breasted bimbos. I will still be alone because I am not changing either. Do I sound jaded or what?


----------



## Alan Shutko (Jul 8, 2005)

cuteasaurus said:
			
		

> For example, I go to a somewhat prominent med school and there were numerous sketches over orientation weekend about how saying you go there will help you get chicks if you're a guy.   However, if you're a woman, then saying you go there actually can help drive away guys.  I don't get it.  Wouldn't you (if you were a guy) WANT to date someone who understands what you're saying?




Well, that was great for me until my wife decided that her career was more important than our marriage and decided to move to NJ for her new job without me.  It was surprising, but not too much so... I'd long known I was second-most-important in her life, or less.

If I heard that a woman I was interested in was a med student, I'd probably back away.  I'd like to feel I'm actually important to my girlfriend, not an accessory to complete her life while she does stuff that's actually important to her.  The problem with highly successful, motivated people is that to be highly successful, they have to concentrate very hard on what they're doing, and that usually leaves less energy for the rest of their life.  I'd bet a lot of men feel the same way, whether they've thought about it in detail or not.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Jul 8, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Yes we are but honesty I think you've gone on this tangent long enough.





I agree.

I've played a few male characters. Messed with my friends' heads because they confused the gender.... alot.   Now, much to their relief, I just play female characters.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Jul 8, 2005)

Aeson said:
			
		

> No matter how many rants we post it wont change anything. Men and women will still lie. Women will still want the bad boys and the hot guys with big peepees. Men will still want the Large breasted bimbos. I will still be alone because I am not changing either. Do I sound jaded or what?




Nope. Realistic.


----------



## Aeson (Jul 8, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> I agree.
> 
> I've played a few male characters. Messed with my friends' heads because they confused the gender.... alot.   Now, much to their relief, I just play female characters.




I want to see a woman play a male character some time. I've only seen men play female and sometimes it can be scary.


----------



## Aeson (Jul 8, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Nope. Realistic.



I thought you would disagree especially with the what women want stuff.


----------



## freebfrost (Jul 8, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> Y'know, I've kept mum in the other threads about "all women lie" and "women send mixed signals, because they can," because I took it to be the poster's person opinion.  Guess I'm not being allowed the same courtesy.



I guess I am supposed to have read every thread on enWorld before I can post.  (Just because I live a half-mile away from him, does not make me Crothian...)

I was trying to keep it civil - sorry I haven't boned up on all the ranting threads.  Sheesh.


----------



## Seonaid (Jul 8, 2005)

Aeson said:
			
		

> I want to see a woman play a male character some time. I've only seen men play female and sometimes it can be scary.



I usually play women, but about a third of the time my characters are male. Of my four PBP games, two of my characters are male. Unfortunately, I'm not in any tabletop games right now. I don't usually create a character based on gender; I have an idea in my head of what I want and sometimes it turns out female and sometimes it turns out male.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Jul 8, 2005)

Aeson said:
			
		

> I want to see a woman play a male character some time. I've only seen men play female and sometimes it can be scary.




They tend to be "ass-kickers" but then so do my female characters... (especially the one in my sig!   ) 

I've not seen men play female characters... I've had one guy joke about playing one... but he hasn't so far.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jul 8, 2005)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> I don't usually create a character based on gender; I have an idea in my head of what I want and sometimes it turns out female and sometimes it turns out male.




Yup, same here its all concept based for me but of late I've been playing alot of female characters...  (I only play PbP so its not that big of a deal.)


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Jul 8, 2005)

Aeson said:
			
		

> I thought you would disagree especially with the what women want stuff.




I tend to think realistically about men just like you do about women.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Jul 8, 2005)

freebfrost said:
			
		

> I guess I am supposed to have read every thread on enWorld before I can post.  (Just because I live a half-mile away from him, does not make me Crothian...)
> 
> I was trying to keep it civil - sorry I haven't boned up on all the ranting threads.  Sheesh.




Some people, it seems, just can't handle the truth.... it hit too close to home.

And do you game with Crothian?


----------



## LightPhoenix (Jul 8, 2005)

While I'm a guy, I know that most of my gf's have had the same few complaints about me, so I'll share them.

First, I don't take anything seriously.  I'll crack jokes when she's talking about state-of-the-relationship stuff.  I'm too easy going about stuff that matters.  It's almost like I don't care about things, even when she knows I do.  

Second, on a related note, I'll just let things go.  After we've had a fight, she'll want to talk about it and analyze it and figure out why we were fighting.  I'll shrug and say that couples fight, and it was probably dumb, so why not just move on?  Pretending things didn't happen doesn't make them go away.

Third, we'll be having a conversation, and besides the joking (which is really just an ego defense mechanism, she believes), she'll ask me why I feel the way I do, and I'll tell her, I just feel that way.  Which is an entirely unacceptable answer, because you need reasons to feel.  To which I'll then reply with something completely absurd and reductionist, like, "Why do you like men?  Just because.  Same deal."

Fourthy, I can't take a complement at all.  God forbid she tries to tell me that I _am_ cute or I _can_ dance, over and over again.  I just refuse to believe.  And don't even talk to me about my eyes... they're beautiful and blue and every woman I know tells me they are, but I refuse to believe.  It's very frustrating always having to boost my self-esteem.

Finally, and most importantly, I always draw into myself and need time alone, especially when things are bad, both personally and relationshiply (is that a word?  It is now  ).  She wants me to let her in, to be... not dependant, but open.  She'll wish that I could sit down and talk about what's wrong, and when I do I inevitably end up at "I don't really know what's wrong," and that's an unsatisfactory answer.

I'd just like to say, this is probably the weirdest thing I've ever posted on these boards, since the beginning.


----------



## Evilboy (Jul 8, 2005)

I'm a man, I'm not gay, but this is a roleplaying board, and honestly I'm ready to kill the next pair of male roleplayers who get into a macho contest at the table.  Nobody cares if Superdarkbladestalker can kill Gaku the martial artist or if it's the other way around, but we'd all be awfully happy if they managed to kill each other.

Also, why can't any male roleplayers have even a slightly realistic romance in a roleplaying game?  Most stay away from the subject (mercifully!) and the few that go in those directions tend to.... well... be a little bit.... _freaky_ .  Not good freaky.  Bad freaky.  "You should be registered with a state agency" freaky.

Lastly, although there is no short supply of obnoxious female drunks, women tend to be far more enjoyable under the influence of intoxicating beverages than men (and get your mind out of the gutter, I mean as a party guest or friend!).  I'm certain that there are dozens of women just waiting to prove this theory wrong, unfortunately.


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer (Jul 8, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> Oh dang, my bad.  I thought we were being invited to rant about men.  Since I'm obviously wrong about everything, I'll bow out of this thread.  *shrug*
> 
> If you want us to be honest and rant about men, then don't jump on us for doing it.



I thought you said you don't want men to:


			
				Hijinks said:
			
		

> ... just smile and nod and say "whatever you think is right, honey."



Looks like that just might be what you really do want sometimes.


so...

 *nods* "whatever you think is right, hijinks"


----------



## Eeralai (Jul 8, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> The only thing I can think of to complain about at the moment is why they are all so much better at video games than I am.




I wonder that too!  Although I can beat my husband at Galaga.  But if we bet on something, I always lose.  Why is that?

On a more serious note, I don't enjoy making generalizations about one sex or the other and ranting about them.  As far as griping about my husband specifically, I just don't think it's appropriate.  Some of the women in my moms club enjoy only talking bad about their husbands and I have to wonder if there is any solidarity at home.  Sure, every once and awhile my husband and I disagree, but it's not for public digestion.  If it's something particularly annoying, I tell my best friend to get it off my chest or he tells his and that's as far as it goes.  I respect him too much to do otherwise.


----------



## Bront (Jul 8, 2005)

Aeson said:
			
		

> I want to see a woman play a male character some time. I've only seen men play female and sometimes it can be scary.



I've seen it the other way.  It's not that bad, and can be fairly good.

As for men playing female characters, it realy depends.  I do it on occasion, but not particularly often, and I try to take it seriously.  Too many people don't take it seriously, or have strange ideas as to what their motivations and actions should be.


----------



## Bront (Jul 8, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Yup, same here its all concept based for me but of late I've been playing alot of female characters...  (I only play PbP so its not that big of a deal.)



I believe someone called you a "Nympho-maniac" mostly due to the large number of nymphs you're playing


----------



## Abstraction (Jul 8, 2005)

Eeralai said:
			
		

> If it's something particularly annoying, I tell my best friend to get it off my chest...



Get it off, get it off! Oh my god, it's inside my shirt! And annoying!


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jul 8, 2005)

Bront said:
			
		

> I believe someone called you a "Nympho-maniac" mostly due to the large number of nymphs you're playing



It’s mostly the right tool for the right job...  Nymph/Half-Nymph Paladins just rock. (I’ve had a couple of those) I have a Healer (Miniature Handbook) that is a nymph simply because it fit the world better than anything else and well I couldn’t think of any other class that worked with the healer and then RA’s game but I had to play a nymph for the class I wanted. 

I’ve played strong women, even as going as far as to call one women by her surname only, chastise, lose, weak, smart, dumb, heroic, villainous, happy and/or sad… 

Rather your male or female and playing the same or opposite sex it all comes down to the same thing… Just be honest to the concept and the character and everything will work out just fine.


----------



## Lady_Acoma (Jul 8, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Ahh cause I've seen Lady Shatterstone naked?



What if *I* want to see Lady Shatterstone naked?  Heck, I'd be happy seeing any of the EN World women naked, but I am one sick little lesbian.


----------



## Lady_Acoma (Jul 8, 2005)

I think myself to be very open minded about men, I have many male friends, in all actuality I think more men then women are closer to me, but I do have one gripe.  

Why is it that guys seem to think that I am wholly and unalterably wrong in my sexual choices?  I'm a lesbian plan and simple, I told you that so you wouldn't hit on me cause it is pointless, not because I want you to try and prove me wrong.  Honestly it just pisses me off and makes me think how right I am to not want to sleep with men in the first place although that was not the issue when I made that choice.  Granted this is not all men, none of my male friends push me like this, they may joke that they want threesomes with me and some other chic, but they know that isn't happening either, it is just a way for them to air out their fantasies a bit cause they know I don't mind.  But with those that do, and there are a lot I don't see why my saying, "I told you no, I never want to sleep with a man." is not good enough and seems to make them sure that they can change all that.  It pisses the hell out of me and on anger issues with others I am *VERY* laid back.  Okay end rant.


----------



## Naathez (Jul 8, 2005)

Lady Acorna - I don't know how you can manage to get hands on naked pics. I do know what e-mail address you should send a copy of them to, though.   

I'm a man. (Like the above comment didn't tell you....)   

In any case, IF Hijinks is still coming to this thread, I wanted to say something. I have perfect respect for the kind of rant you expressed about men. The thread is here for that reason. I can also understand, to a point, the attitude of "lumping all men together" when ranting - that is PART of ranting. Us men do the VERY same thing with women when ranting - it's unavoidable.

What I am sincerely, though, VERY offended by, is "I advise women not to go live with a SO before marriage" or without "the financial security of a ring on my finger".

My parents got estranged after 20 years of having those rings on their fingers. That ring didn't hold them together any more than a paper ring would. 
And I know I'd never, ever, EVER leave my wife, although we haven't yet scrounged up the money to have a legal marriage (and yet yes , I call her my wife and she calls me her husband and that is who we ARE.) and it'll be 2 years of us living together on September 25th. And by the way, when we can afford it, we'll be getting married (legally - neither of us is religious)  mostly because kids born out of marriage still have a weird social situation here in Italy, and we don't think we should make our kids pay for consequences of choices or beliefs that belong to US. (OK, OK, and also because we want a southern seas cruise for a wedding present, sheesh.   )

I'll be very sincere with you, Hijinks. I am sad you've had a bad experience with a past SO. Sincerely sad. I know what a shattered heart feels like. But even when I had NEVER had a SO in my life, had a lady I cared for told me "I don't trust you to stay with me and take care of things unless you marry me, so I won't live with you before I get my gold ring" - I'd start seriously doubting her love for me. Love is also trust - not BLIND trust, but trust. And I don't think starting a relationship by making sure your bases are covered if it breaks up is a great way of expressing trust - I'll say more: if that is your first worry, perhaps you just DON'T trust the person. 

I say this just because, although it WAS and IS perfectly within your rights to express your opinion, that opinion hurt me and I found it quite inconsistent with my experience, and so I thought it'd be a good idea to say it here.

I do sincerely hope the person you're with now can heal your heart.  Best wishes. And don't be too mad at me, none of this was said to offend anyone in any way. As I believe none of what you said was meant to offend - and that is why I let you know it had, indeed.

If only I could type ALL this amount of stuff when posting about gaming... -sighs-


----------



## Lady_Acoma (Jul 8, 2005)

Naathez said:
			
		

> Lady Acorna - I don't know how you can manage to get hands on naked pics. I do know what e-mail address you should send a copy of them to, though.



Hehehe...I never said pictures.  And I never gawk and tell.


----------



## Bront (Jul 8, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Rather your male or female and playing the same or opposite sex it all comes down to the same thing… Just be honest to the concept and the character and everything will work out just fine.



Well said.


----------



## Darmanicus (Jul 8, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> LOL
> I think we are both happier now. Her curiosity has been sated and my daydreaming has been revealed for what it is: inconsequential.




You daydream about Inconsequenti-Al!!!!!???? And your wife doesn't find that profound!!!???


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (Jul 8, 2005)

*Men! **Men!* Oh, don’t get me started about *men!* They are horribly hairy! It’s like the fur that comes in with puberty never stops coming in and by the time they are 30 they’ve got in all over their backs and in their ears and maybe across their noises. They think farting in public is an acceptable form of communication. And even without the farting *men* smell funny. They radiate dirtiness they way a plutonium isotope radiates, uh, radiation. They enjoy killing things and eating meat raw! In all of recorded human history there have been, like, two women serial killers. Men serial killers: 370,897,674. *Men!*


----------



## Majoru Oakheart (Jul 8, 2005)

Lady_Acoma said:
			
		

> It I am wholly and unalterably wrong in my sexual choices?  I'm a lesbian plan and simple, I told you that so you wouldn't hit on me cause it is pointless, not because I want you to try and prove me wrong.



If you want an actual answer to this, it comes from a lot of men being desperate for women in the first place.  We can't get any of the women that are actually willing to sleep with men and we can't understand the concept of why our choices of women are reduced further by some of them that won't sleep with ANY of us instead of just us personally.

Plus, I think it has a lot to do with there being so many bisexual and bicurious women.  Most of the "lesbians" I know were heterosexual women who were introduced to the lesbian thing and decided that women were less a hassle than men.  It doesn't make them any less bi-sexual, it's just that they've vowed off off men.  Since I've met enough of these people to make them statistically significant, I think that men look at it and say "see, she likes guys even though she says she doesn't, why don't you?"

And even more controversial is since I've seen enough people "change" sexual orientations that people think with enough convincing you might try it and like it.  Heck, my ex-gf tried women, then didn't like guys anymore....so it works both ways.  Sadly.


----------



## der_kluge (Jul 8, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> Plus, I think it has a lot to do with there being so many bisexual and bicurious women.  Most of the "lesbians" I know were heterosexual women who were introduced to the lesbian thing and decided that women were less a hassle than men.  It doesn't make them any less bi-sexual, it's just that they've vowed off off men.





*backs away slowly*  

I don't want to be anywhere near this when this explodes.


----------



## cuteasaurus (Jul 8, 2005)

Eeralai said:
			
		

> I wonder that too! Although I can beat my husband at Galaga. But if we bet on something, I always lose. Why is that?
> 
> On a more serious note, I don't enjoy making generalizations about one sex or the other and ranting about them. As far as griping about my husband specifically, I just don't think it's appropriate. Some of the women in my moms club enjoy only talking bad about their husbands and I have to wonder if there is any solidarity at home. Sure, every once and awhile my husband and I disagree, but it's not for public digestion. If it's something particularly annoying, I tell my best friend to get it off my chest or he tells his and that's as far as it goes. I respect him too much to do otherwise.




It seems like being "laid-back" is actually a benefit in the video game world.  I'm not very good, but then again, I don't seem to have the patience to become good anyway.   I will say though that I am the Queen of Monkey Bowling (Super Monkey Ball 2).  Only video game in which I can consistently beat all my guy friends.


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 8, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> *backs away slowly*
> 
> I don't want to be anywhere near this when this explodes.




I do.... the ranting is why I started the thread.  Rant! *Puts on bomb-proof drawers and waits*


----------



## Majoru Oakheart (Jul 8, 2005)

der_kluge said:
			
		

> *backs away slowly*
> 
> I don't want to be anywhere near this when this explodes.



Ya, now that I look it over, I realize how mad it might sound.  Didn't mean to make any assumptions or judgements.  If I did, I'm sorry.  Still, I am stating what I've personally observed, not stating it as a fact.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Jul 8, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> Plus, I think it has a lot to do with there being so many bisexual and bicurious women. Most of the "lesbians" I know were heterosexual women who were introduced to the lesbian thing and decided that women were less a hassle than men. It doesn't make them any less bi-sexual, it's just that they've vowed off off men. Since I've met enough of these people to make them statistically significant, I think that men look at it and say "see, she likes guys even though she says she doesn't, why don't you?"
> 
> And even more controversial is since I've seen enough people "change" sexual orientations that people think with enough convincing you might try it and like it. Heck, my ex-gf tried women, then didn't like guys anymore....so it works both ways. Sadly.




[HIJACK]

Most of this is because people/society still think (and probably always will) of gender and sexuality as discreet categories, when that is simply not the case.  Nor are they constants.  In my opinion, they're both social constructs; humans tend to simplify things, and tend to divide things.  Instead of being simply sexual, you have to be sexual in a defined way, mostly so people can talk about you.  I'm not saying the construct is wrong - it's a necessary tool for communication about sex amongst groups of people.  It's just important to realize that it _is_ a construct, and in real life people are much too complex to really be divided into two or three categories.

And don't even get me started on "bi-curious".  Suffice it to say, I don't like the phrase.

A more palatable view, though also more constrained, is that gender and sexuality are actually continua, with male/female and hetero/homo as the seperate ends of an axis.  Depending on what you've done, and how you feel, you'll fall somewhere in between the two, as a shade of grey, rather than at the ends.


----------



## Eeralai (Jul 8, 2005)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> [HIJACK]
> 
> 
> 
> A more palatable view, though also more constrained, is that gender and sexuality are actually continua, with male/female and hetero/homo as the seperate ends of an axis.  Depending on what you've done, and how you feel, you'll fall somewhere in between the two, as a shade of grey, rather than at the ends.





Well stated.  And, now that the internet is here, I think in the distant future, there will be the possibility of people being attracted to personalities rather than gender.


----------



## Xath (Jul 8, 2005)

cuteasaurus said:
			
		

> It seems like being "laid-back" is actually a benefit in the video game world.  I'm not very good, but then again, I don't seem to have the patience to become good anyway.   I will say though that I am the Queen of Monkey Bowling (Super Monkey Ball 2).  Only video game in which I can consistently beat all my guy friends.





I've read an interesting theory about why men are better at video games.  (and why the women who are super good are that way).  But I'll post it in a spoiler because it may not be work friendly.



Spoiler



Apparently, male "self pleasuring" and some female versions of the same increase manual dexterity and speed for many of the muscles associated with controling a video game controller.  Especially those games which require repetitive speed button pushing, such as many of the minigames in Mario-Party.



Many of my male friends swear by it.


----------



## Xath (Jul 8, 2005)

Evilboy said:
			
		

> Also, why can't any male roleplayers have even a slightly realistic romance in a roleplaying game?  Most stay away from the subject (mercifully!) and the few that go in those directions tend to.... well... be a little bit.... _freaky_ .  Not good freaky.  Bad freaky.  "You should be registered with a state agency" freaky.




I have a different situation on a related topic.  My boyfriend first expressed his interest in me through establishing a relationship between his character and mine.  It was interesting to watch how the closer our characters got, the closer he got to asking me out.  

However, 

Now, it seems that every character he makes has romantic intentions towards my character.  It's not particularly annoying, I'd just like to be able to express a bit more diversity in my character.  I also don't want us to become "that gaming couple who's characters are always in a relationship."  It's a stereotype I've seen go from "cutesy" to "get a room wierd."  

I've tried to tell him that I don't think our characters should always be romantically involved.  But he's still trying to do it in the majority of our campaigns.


----------



## Ashwyn (Jul 8, 2005)

Aeson said:
			
		

> Men will still want the Large breasted bimbos.



I've never known any guys like that, and I am not a guy like that. I need someone with a deep personality. How can anybody stand to be around someone without it? Other than alcohol.



			
				Lady_Acoma said:
			
		

> I think myself to be very open minded about men, I have many male friends, in all actuality I think more men then women are closer to me, but I do have one gripe.
> 
> Why is it that guys seem to think that I am wholly and unalterably wrong in my sexual choices?  I'm a lesbian plan and simple, I told you that so you wouldn't hit on me cause it is pointless, not because I want you to try and prove me wrong.  Honestly it just pisses me off and makes me think how right I am to not want to sleep with men in the first place although that was not the issue when I made that choice.  Granted this is not all men, none of my male friends push me like this, they may joke that they want threesomes with me and some other chic, but they know that isn't happening either, it is just a way for them to air out their fantasies a bit cause they know I don't mind.  But with those that do, and there are a lot I don't see why my saying, "I told you no, I never want to sleep with a man." is not good enough and seems to make them sure that they can change all that.  It pisses the hell out of me and on anger issues with others I am *VERY* laid back.  Okay end rant.



I never made you think that I feel that way, did I? I hope not.



			
				Xath said:
			
		

> I've read an interesting theory about why men are better at video games.  (and why the women who are super good are that way).  But I'll post it in a spoiler because it may not be work friendly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I will not make a joystick joke. I will not make a joystick joke. I will not make a joystick joke...


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 8, 2005)

Ashwyn said:
			
		

> I will not make a joystick joke. I will not make a joystick joke. I will not make a joystick joke...




The beauty thing is you don't have to.


----------



## Aeson (Jul 8, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> I have a different situation on a related topic.  My boyfriend first expressed his interest in me through establishing a relationship between his character and mine.  It was interesting to watch how the closer our characters got, the closer he got to asking me out.
> 
> However,
> 
> ...



Play a male that should make him think twice.


----------



## Aeson (Jul 8, 2005)

Ashwyn said:
			
		

> I've never known any guys like that, and I am not a guy like that. I need someone with a deep personality. How can anybody stand to be around someone without it? Other than alcohol.



I hear size doesn't matter all the time. I agree. sociaty does not. We are under constant pressure to be more than we are. Men for a long time were pushed to be strong and silent. Hold in your feelings and the such. Women were taught to serve and obey and to be open. Things are changing and the roles are switching. Many are resisting but resistance is futile.


----------



## freebfrost (Jul 8, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> I've not seen men play female characters... I've had one guy joke about playing one... but he hasn't so far.



Two of my favorite characters were female.  Celestine Lightcrown was a 1st edition 18th level magic-user, and Terri Fornorth was a 4th level 2nd edition ranger.  Both were a blast to play.  It was also nice to turn the tables on the guys in the group - they weren't expecting me to run a woman.


			
				Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Some people, it seems, just can't handle the truth.... it hit too close to home.
> 
> And do you game with Crothian?



Alas, that unfortunately is the truth for many things.  A lot of relationship issues could be avoided if people would be honest with _themselves_ first.

And, no, I've never had the pleasure.  I only recently have started posting on enWorld, though I've been a member for years, and subsequently only recently talked with Crothian about where we live.  Hopefully I'll meet him at some point - either around town or at GenCon.


----------



## Turanil (Jul 8, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> I've read an interesting theory about why men are better at video games.



Xath, you are baaad.


----------



## Turanil (Jul 8, 2005)

freebfrost said:
			
		

> Darth K'Trava said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Crothian is really too busy posting to actually do anything else IMO.


----------



## Darmanicus (Jul 8, 2005)

Eeralai said:
			
		

> Well stated.  And, now that the internet is here, I think in the distant future, there will be the possibility of people being attracted to personalities rather than gender.




I just hope that the rest of the animal kingdom doesn't discover the internet otherwise this world is gonna turn out to be SERIOUSLY weird.


----------



## Amy Kou'ai (Jul 8, 2005)

Eeralai said:
			
		

> Well stated.  And, now that the internet is here, I think in the distant future, there will be the possibility of people being attracted to personalities rather than gender.




"In the distant future"?  Keep in mind that a lot of what people call "bisexuality" often _really_ amounts to -- assuming you are serious about it -- "I don't really care what sex you are, I care who you are."  A lot of people call this "pansexuality" to be more all-encompassing, but the idea's still there.

Oh, also, for bias-evaluation purposes, I'm a lesbian.  (Hi, Lady_Acoma!)


----------



## Darmanicus (Jul 8, 2005)

I'm a lesbian too!


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jul 8, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> I've tried to tell him that I don't think our characters should always be romantically involved.  But he's still trying to do it in the majority of our campaigns.




Now, I'm no professional or anything like that, but I don't think this is truly bad...  He, well I hate to use the word discovered cause he knew saw you at the table long before but he did discover how to make a connection with you.  

I think it was this that made it easier for him to be close to you and I think he’s hoping repeated games of that style will bring you closer together cause it brings him more out of his shell.  (He sounded rather inverted to me.)


----------



## cuteasaurus (Jul 8, 2005)

On a somewhat related tangent...do we know what the breakdown of genders and sexual identifications we have on this site?  In other words, has there ever been a thread/poll asking if people are Male vs Female and Straight, Bi, and Gay? That'd be interesting...


----------



## reveal (Jul 8, 2005)

cuteasaurus said:
			
		

> On a somewhat related tangent...do we know what the breakdown of genders and sexual identifications we have on this site?  In other words, has there ever been a thread/poll asking if people are Male vs Female and Straight, Bi, and Gay? That'd be interesting...




I would only make that kind of poll if no one could post in it. I think too many people would start flaming one another because of their sexual preferences, even in the open environment EN World usually provides.


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 8, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> I would only make that kind of poll if no one could post in it. I think too many people would start flaming one another because of their sexual preferences.




That's a good point.  A year or so ago I simply posed the question about how many female DMs there were on ENWorld and got totally flamed for being a troll.


----------



## reveal (Jul 8, 2005)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> That's a good point.  A year or so ago I simply posed the question about how many female DMs there were on ENWorld and got totally flamed for being a troll.




But you *are* a troll, so that doesn't really count.


----------



## cuteasaurus (Jul 8, 2005)

Really?  That's sad.  Well if there were a poll component then no one would have to "out" themselves...


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 8, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> But you *are* a troll, so that doesn't really count.




But I'm a NICE troll!  Not one of the creepy types!


----------



## Bryon_Soulweaver (Jul 8, 2005)

[unrelated]I really dont care what sex one is attracted to, as long as guys dont hit on me. If you're a gay guy, I'm cool and I'll warn you to not make passes at me. If you are gay woman, so what, I'm not going to make passes at you.[unrelated]


On a more related note, most guys I know was brought up to not cry and fight back if they got picked on, me included. Most females I know were taught to be kind and petite. Although people were brought that way, I think sociaty should be more accepting of other ways of life.​


----------



## cuteasaurus (Jul 8, 2005)

Bryon_Soulweaver said:
			
		

> Most females I know were taught to be kind and petite.​



​ 

Hmm...if someone taught me to be petite they sure did a bad job...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jul 8, 2005)

cuteasaurus said:
			
		

> On a somewhat related tangent...do we know what the breakdown of genders and sexual identifications we have on this site?  In other words, has there ever been a thread/poll asking if people are Male vs Female and Straight, Bi, and Gay? That'd be interesting...




Sexual preference has not been done...  If you’re male or if your female has been done...   I would suspect that is in the archives.

There was also a thread some time ago about the female ENworlders to identify themselves.  I suspect my wife still has a link to it…  I could dig it up if someone thought it would be useful.


----------



## sniffles (Jul 8, 2005)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> But I'm a NICE troll! Not one of the creepy types!




And you have that thing as your avatar?!


----------



## cuteasaurus (Jul 8, 2005)

I dunno about useful, but I'm certainly curious (especially as I've seen the gender dynamics in groups change- I used to be the only one...and now there are 5!)


----------



## reveal (Jul 8, 2005)

cuteasaurus said:
			
		

> I dunno about useful, but I'm certainly curious (especially as I've seen the gender dynamics in groups change- I used to be the only one...and now there are 5!)




There can be only one!


----------



## JamesDJarvis (Jul 8, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> if there isn't another woman there to tempt them, they don't consider leaving.




Not true, they may indeed consoider it but find the dry spell in the middle unappealing.




> But I will never ever live with a man again without the financial security of a ring on my finger.




wow, you have a lot to learn there.  It is far easier to walk away from a boyfriends financial idiocy then it is to walk away from a husbands financial idiocy.




> It's a vicious cycle.  Frequently, women get baggage and emotional issues because men they were previously with dump them for no reason that they can see.  Then in their next relationship, the women become clingy and desperately want to keep ahold of their man, which drives him away even quicker.  It's just a vast difference between men and women.




I think you may be confusing boys with men.


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 8, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> And you have that thing as your avatar?!




What??? No love for the aye-aye?


----------



## Abstraction (Jul 8, 2005)

Interestingly, as far as sexual identity goes, it seems that for men a lot of sexual identity is hardwired. You were either born gay or not, with very few in a middle range. So far, for women, they haven't found any hardwiring. Unless there is a new discovery, it seems that sexual preference for women is a matter of choice.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Jul 8, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> And you have that thing as your avatar?!




Only if a rodent could be classified as a troll....


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 8, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Only if a rodent could be classified as a troll....




It's not a rodent!  It's a primate--a lemur to be exact!  And don't make him point his skinny finger at you.  Bad juju!


----------



## reveal (Jul 8, 2005)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> It's not a rodent!  It's a primate--!




Well so am I but you don't see me gettin' all uppity about it. Sheesh!


----------



## cuteasaurus (Jul 8, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> There can be only one!




Only one Cuteasaurus that is!


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 8, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Well so am I but you don't see me gettin' all uppity about it. Sheesh!




It's cuz we're the uppitiest primates of all!


----------



## JamesDJarvis (Jul 8, 2005)

Lady_Acoma said:
			
		

> Why is it that guys seem to think that I am wholly and unalterably wrong in my sexual choices?  I'm a lesbian plan and simple, I told you that so you wouldn't hit on me cause it is pointless, not because I want you to try and prove me wrong.




They are dumb dumb dumb.   I'm very good and very close friends with a lesbian couple, we hang out with each other a lot (we have kids the same age too) and people always assume I'm "with" one or the other of them or even "both" of them (this dillusion is sometimes useful ).  Guys are constantly pestering me about this stuff and I usually have to point out ....uhhh duhhh... "L E S B I A N S" remember stupid?


----------



## I'm A Banana (Jul 8, 2005)

> Why is it that guys seem to think that I am wholly and unalterably wrong in my sexual choices? I'm a lesbian plan and simple, I told you that so you wouldn't hit on me cause it is pointless, not because I want you to try and prove me wrong.




It's because if you accept defeat then you're not very confident, and we all know how much girls loooooooooooove the confidence! If girls enjoyed politeness and shyness, they wouldn't dare.


----------



## sniffles (Jul 8, 2005)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> It's not a rodent! It's a primate--a lemur to be exact! And don't make him point his skinny finger at you. Bad juju!




Lemurs are eeeeeeevilllll!!!!!


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 8, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> Lemurs are eeeeeeevilllll!!!!!





The "eeeeeeevilllll" bit made me miss a very dear friend of mine.  She's moved away now and no longer games with me, but she'd say that whenever the BBEG showed up.  It always made me laugh....just prior to trying to kill her character and all the others in the climatic battle.


----------



## Eeralai (Jul 8, 2005)

Amy Kou'ai said:
			
		

> "In the distant future"?  Keep in mind that a lot of what people call "bisexuality" often _really_ amounts to -- assuming you are serious about it -- "I don't really care what sex you are, I care who you are."  A lot of people call this "pansexuality" to be more all-encompassing, but the idea's still there.





I put distant future not because I don't think it is happening now, but because I am thinking it will be more accepted in the future   I was worried I would be treading on the no politics rule and I didn't want the thread to get shut down by saying more than that.  

I like this thread because there are actually multiple threads within it to keep up with, but maybe the original poster is getting tired of the hijacking?


----------



## reveal (Jul 8, 2005)

Eeralai said:
			
		

> I put distant future not because I don't think it is happening now, but because I am thinking it will be more accepted in the future   I was worried I would be treading on the no politics rule and I didn't want the thread to get shut down by saying more than that.
> 
> I like this thread because there are actually multiple threads within it to keep up with, but maybe the original poster is getting tired of the hijacking?




Dude, he's posting about Lemurs. I don't think he minds the threadjacking.


----------



## Aeson (Jul 8, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Dude, he's posting about Lemurs. I don't think he minds the threadjacking.



The Hivemind strikes again. ONE OF US!!! ONE OF US!!! ONE OF US!!!


----------



## Arcane Runes Press (Jul 8, 2005)

A thread for women to vent has turned into a thread full of men pontificating.

How... shocking to me. Really.


----------



## Sebastian Francis (Jul 8, 2005)

Lady_Acoma said:
			
		

> I think myself to be very open minded about men, I have many male friends, in all actuality I think more men then women are closer to me, but I do have one gripe.
> 
> Why is it that guys seem to think that I am wholly and unalterably wrong in my sexual choices?  I'm a lesbian plan and simple, I told you that so you wouldn't hit on me cause it is pointless, not because I want you to try and prove me wrong.  Honestly it just pisses me off and makes me think how right I am to not want to sleep with men in the first place although that was not the issue when I made that choice.  Granted this is not all men, none of my male friends push me like this, they may joke that they want threesomes with me and some other chic, but they know that isn't happening either, it is just a way for them to air out their fantasies a bit cause they know I don't mind.  But with those that do, and there are a lot I don't see why my saying, "I told you no, I never want to sleep with a man." is not good enough and seems to make them sure that they can change all that.  It pisses the hell out of me and on anger issues with others I am *VERY* laid back.  Okay end rant.




I guarantee you guys this statement above was written by a man.  No doubt some guy who is getting a kick out of pretending to be a lesbian here on enworld.

Then again...maybe it is a real lesbian. Who knows?


----------



## Amy Kou'ai (Jul 9, 2005)

Abstraction said:
			
		

> Interestingly, as far as sexual identity goes, it seems that for men a lot of sexual identity is hardwired. You were either born gay or not, with very few in a middle range. So far, for women, they haven't found any hardwiring. Unless there is a new discovery, it seems that sexual preference for women is a matter of choice.




Just as an aside -- I believe I read about that study, and I question the validity of their methodology.  So.


----------



## Amy Kou'ai (Jul 9, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> I guarantee you guys this statement above was written by a man.




I must admit: You totally lost all credibility with me the instant you said this.


----------



## Lady_Acoma (Jul 9, 2005)

Amy Kou'ai said:
			
		

> Oh, also, for bias-evaluation purposes, I'm a lesbian.  (Hi, Lady_Acoma!)



Hi Amy!  Missed you over at RH for awhile now, come by and visit again!


----------



## Lady_Acoma (Jul 9, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> I guarantee you guys this statement above was written by a man.  No doubt some guy who is getting a kick out of pretending to be a lesbian here on enworld.
> 
> Then again...maybe it is a real lesbian. Who knows?



Wow, sorry you seem to be so hard wired in your views, I have openly posted who and what I am on multiple threads and a few of the people on EN World have met me in person and I have many others that I intend to meet.  But if it makes you feel better to believe that I am a guy somehow have fun, I'm not going to stop you, it's not worth my time.


----------



## Lady_Acoma (Jul 9, 2005)

JamesDJarvis said:
			
		

> They are dumb dumb dumb.   I'm very good and very close friends with a lesbian couple, we hang out with each other a lot (we have kids the same age too) and people always assume I'm "with" one or the other of them or even "both" of them (this dillusion is sometimes useful ).  Guys are constantly pestering me about this stuff and I usually have to point out ....uhhh duhhh... "L E S B I A N S" remember stupid?



Thank you I do have friends like you and I love them.  It is just the others that tick me off.


----------



## Lady_Acoma (Jul 9, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> It's because if you accept defeat then you're not very confident, and we all know how much girls loooooooooooove the confidence! If girls enjoyed politeness and shyness, they wouldn't dare.



I'm Not Looking For Confident Men, I'm Looking For WOMEN!  *deep breath* Kay I feel better now, sorry.


----------



## d20Dwarf (Jul 9, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> Sadly, one thing I've learned about men from past relationships is to never live together until marriage..




This is wonderful advice. Cohabitation before marriage is one of the primary indicators that a marriage will end in divorce. In fact, it's one of the few statistically significant variables.


----------



## Amy Kou'ai (Jul 9, 2005)

Lady_Acoma said:
			
		

> Hi Amy!  Missed you over at RH for awhile now, come by and visit again!




Sorry, I got sucked into the evil and utter chaos of the abyss that is Third Quarter of Senior Year.  And yet I still haven't graduated.  >.>

Though I've been contemplating heading back and apprising everyone of what I've been doing with my life the last three or so months.


----------



## Bront (Jul 9, 2005)

Sebastian Francis said:
			
		

> I guarantee you guys this statement above was written by a man.  No doubt some guy who is getting a kick out of pretending to be a lesbian here on enworld.
> 
> Then again...maybe it is a real lesbian. Who knows?



Why would you say that?  And why is it so hard to believe that there could be a real lesbian (or it appears several) on the board?  I'm sure there are some gay guys on the board as well.  Who cares?  Last I checked, this was a board about an RPG game, not a board about hooking up and other people's sexuality.  I say, as a hetrosexual male, who the hell here cares?  I game, I have fun, and I try to help others here have fun.  And when I RP a character here, does it realy matter the sex or orientation (West at the moment if you care) of the player behind the keyboard?

Sorry, but calling people out as "not what they say they are" is right up there with judging others by their sexuality and dismissing people as "trolls" when they express a controversial point (which I've seen several members do as well, and strangely threads go downhill shortly after that.  Makes you wonder who's trolling...).


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 9, 2005)

Eeralai said:
			
		

> I like this thread because there are actually multiple threads within it to keep up with, but maybe the original poster is getting tired of the hijacking?




Nope...Hijack away.  I cannot, nor will not, railroad a thread.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Jul 9, 2005)

Abstraction said:
			
		

> Interestingly, as far as sexual identity goes, it seems that for men a lot of sexual identity is hardwired. You were either born gay or not, with very few in a middle range. So far, for women, they haven't found any hardwiring. Unless there is a new discovery, it seems that sexual preference for women is a matter of choice.




I highly doubt the first part - that sexual identity is only hardwired.  One of the basic tenets of biology is that organisms are influenced not just by genetics, but by the environment around them, and the society they live in (which really is part of the environment, but whatever).  Besides which, I know a few guys who are bi, one of whom is a good friend of mine.

I think that both men and women have more homosexual encounters than one might suspect at first glance.  However, there's a huge societal pressure, especially against guys, to avoid talking, thinking, or even admitting that.  Especially to themselves.  Definitely don't forget that due to the predominantly male-oriented culture, lesbians are infinitely more tolerated.

Tangent: I think it's because, as someone intimated earlier, men don't really think of lesbians as only being with women.  Rather, there's a certain degree of wish-fulfillment with regards to three-ways and other stuff that is more of a societal taboo than the missionary position.  Additionally, most people's "experience" with lesbians tends to be because of porn, which is hardly a basis for realistic personalities.  Also, since porn is more designed to appeal to men than women, so of course it alludes to the fact that a man could be there.

So, in short, I think said study is biased simply by societal taboo and pressure.  Homosexuality amongst males is strongly discouraged, more so than women.  Saying that it is hardwired makes it easier for men to discount any number of potential situations which make throw doubt as to their sexuality.  Which is dumb, but people are usually insecure about themselves.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jul 9, 2005)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Tangent: I think it's because, as someone intimated earlier, men don't really think of lesbians as only being with women.  Rather, there's a certain degree of wish-fulfillment with regards to three-ways and other stuff that is more of a societal taboo than the missionary position.




Could be but I think it’s far simpler than that...  Men, in general, like women so it’s not much of a stretch for those men to see why a woman would like woman.


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## Dinkeldog (Jul 9, 2005)

I closed the thread.  There's very little positive room for this to go and lots of negative room; it would simply require way too much moderation to keep it acceptable.  I can say, however, that any discussion on sexual orientation and its causes belongs somewhere else.  And that's just one example.


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