# Kalamar - first published 4e setting?!?



## mhensley (Jul 9, 2008)

4E Kingdoms of Kalamar PDF campaign setting released
http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showthread.php?p=678068#post678068

501 page pdf!  GSL or not?
http://www.kenzerco.com/product_info.php?cPath=25_26_33&products_id=625

By this cover, I'm guessing not.


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## Vayden (Jul 9, 2008)

Intriguing. Can I get some background on KoKalamar from someone who's played in it before? General theme/feel?


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## mhensley (Jul 9, 2008)

Vayden said:


> Intriguing. Can I get some background on KoKalamar from someone who's played in it before? General theme/feel?




It's a very detailed and realistic medieval fantasy setting.  I found it to be a bit dry for my tastes.


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## Vayden (Jul 9, 2008)

mhensley said:


> It's a very detailed and realistic medieval fantasy setting.  I found it to be a bit dry for my tastes.




Bummer. Not my cup of tea.


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## Voadam (Jul 9, 2008)

Vayden said:


> Intriguing. Can I get some background on KoKalamar from someone who's played in it before? General theme/feel?




Detailed ethnic and language groups (including an africanish analogue), they worked hard on having geography make sense. Hobgoblins are a huge important civilization.

Tons of gods (but no racial deities, one pantheon for the world) and groups and kingdoms.

Fewer high level casters around than Greyhawk. They are there but not omnipresent.

Timeline deliberately does not advance in products, nothing in the base book gets invalidated by later supplements.


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## Voadam (Jul 9, 2008)

None of their 3e Kalamar stuff was under the OGL, correct?


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## mhensley (Jul 9, 2008)

Voadam said:


> None of their 3e Kalamar stuff was under the OGL, correct?




Most of it was done under license as official D&D product iirc.


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## Ktulu (Jul 9, 2008)

That's surprising considering the amount of 4e bashing Kenzer&co has delivered in WotC 4e's direction.  Really ironic, too, seeing how Kalamar is to become their official Hackmaster setting when they eventually put out 5th ed Hackmaster.

I'd have to take a look, but I'd bet they just removed the 3.x magic items and class references from the book and released it as a 4e product.

I own every Kalamar product put out in the 3.x era and, despite my not nice words about the company, I really enjoyed the setting and I'd have to say it's been one of my favorite worlds to run/play a game in for years.

Ktulu


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## Shroomy (Jul 9, 2008)

Yeah, I didn't exactly get the idea that Kenzer was going to immediately support 4e.


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## Vanuslux (Jul 9, 2008)

Looking at the preview, it looks like it will have maybe a Dragon article's worth of 4E material with the other 495 pages of the $25 PDF taken up by an amalgamation of the KoK setting fluff and the KoK Atlas.


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## Ruin Explorer (Jul 9, 2008)

mhensley said:


> 4E Kingdoms of Kalamar PDF campaign setting released
> http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showthread.php?p=678068#post678068
> 
> 501 page pdf!  GSL or not?
> ...




I love that cover, really do. I like the idea of a realistic medieval setting a lot, and often like settings other people consider "dry" (like Taladas in 2E), so I may have to give this a chance.


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## Ktulu (Jul 9, 2008)

Vanuslux said:


> Looking at the preview, it looks like it will have maybe a Dragon article's worth of 4E material with the other 495 pages of the $25 PDF taken up by an amalgamation of the KoK setting fluff and the KoK Atlas.




This.  The original didn't have many rules in it, so I'd really be surprised if anyone who's already a fan needs this.  Besides, $25 bucks for a .pdf is pretty ridiculous.


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## Ktulu (Jul 9, 2008)

Ruin Explorer said:


> I love that cover, really do. I like the idea of a realistic medieval setting a lot, and often like settings other people consider "dry" (like Taladas in 2E), so I may have to give this a chance.




It's a re-used cover from their lands of mystery adventure pack.


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## Wyrmshadows (Jul 9, 2008)

Kalamar is certainly one of the most well realized fantasy RPing settings I have ever encountered. A bit dry, perhaps do to the writing style used ( a bit textbook like to me), but nothing that a decent DM couldn't add some pizzaz to. You can't go wrong with Kalamar as a traditional D&D setting. It has all you expect from a traditional D&D setting (elves, dwarves, orcs, etc) but unlike many settings it is very well written. The creators really care about their work and it shows.

The ONLY downside to the setting IMO is the naming conventions. Wow, Kalamar has some jarringly difficult to pronounce names. Names that are strange sounding for the sake of being strange sounding...kind of like the way a less than steller fantasy author would create. I'm not insulting the creators, but one of my peeves is naming conventions and Kalamar's naming conventions are IMO some of the worst. I am however very picky about such things so you can't necessarily judge using my point of view.

Give it a try. 



Wyrmshadows


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## Ruin Explorer (Jul 9, 2008)

Ktulu said:


> This.  The original didn't have many rules in it, so I'd really be surprised if anyone who's already a fan needs this.  Besides, $25 bucks for a .pdf is pretty ridiculous.




It is ridiculous if you are already a fan, I agree, because KoK is a setting-setting, not a rules-heavy piece (and always has been, since it was system free back in 2E days), but it doesn't seem unreasonable for 500 pages to me.


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## thundershot (Jul 9, 2008)

Now that wasn't expected.. hm... I wonder how much for just the classes, races, monsters, and equipment? 

Better yet, someone PLEASE give me a 4E Goods & Gear. That book was great.



Chris


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## catsclaw227 (Jul 9, 2008)

Very interesting.  I wonder what the fluff:crunch ratio will be like.  Though, with half the book being the atlas, then not as much crunch as I would like.


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## Ruin Explorer (Jul 9, 2008)

catsclaw227 said:


> Very interesting.  I wonder what the fluff:crunch ratio will be like.  Though, with half the book being the atlas, then not as much crunch as I would like.




It's interesting how preferences vary. I personally love setting books with between 0 and 15% crunch. More than that is taking away valuable setting information. Yet some people seem to prefer "setting books" which are basically 50%+ crunch (like some 3E FR books), and I have a hard time understanding how those aren't just crunch books with a bit of fluff.


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## Vanuslux (Jul 9, 2008)

catsclaw227 said:


> Very interesting.  I wonder what the fluff:crunch ratio will be like.  Though, with half the book being the atlas, then not as much crunch as I would like.




This is the whole list of crunch in the book, according to its table of contents:



> You can find rules set apart in sidebars, or in
> sections of their own, as follows:
> 
> Animals (Mounts)
> ...




As I said, it looks like about a Dragon article worth of crunch.


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## The Lost Muse (Jul 9, 2008)

Just did a quick skim through, there's no mention of the GSL. They do have Dungeons and Dragons mentioned on the front cover, and a line stating that Dungeons and Dragons is a trademark owned by Wizards of the Coast.

Edit: This is pretty much the campaign setting + the atlas. It's a sweet package, and I'm wondering how much it'll cost to get printed and bound. OTOH, in digital form, I can just print off the stuff I want if I need it.


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## pawsplay (Jul 9, 2008)

I've been yawning over Kalamar since before 3e. Imagine Greyhawk, but written in the style of a 1968 encyclopedia, and with less mind flayers.


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## The Lost Muse (Jul 9, 2008)

Ktulu said:


> I'd have to take a look, but I'd bet they just removed the 3.x magic items and class references from the book and released it as a 4e product.




They've updated the text to include the 4e classes. The races are: Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Half-Elves, Half-Hobgoblins, Half-Orcs*, Halflings, Hobgoblins, and 6 flavors of human.

* It is suggested that you use the orc statistics, but change the bonus stats, and possibly grab a human power.

Kenzerco has definately used the features of the PDF format to great advantage. Each chapter is bookmarked, with individual sections broken down. 

The languages chapter details the major languages spoken on Tellene, including naming elements for each language. These are fantastic, as you can just combine a couple and have an appropriate character name to use. There are a couple suggestions as to bonuses DM's can give depending on whether or not characters are literate, or if they speak the proper language rather than common.

The chapter on the pantheon of gods has also been updated to reflect the changes in alignments, with an explaination of the reduction from 9 to 5 alignments. This pantheon is exhaustive, and I like that they include the various names each culture would call the gods rather than creating a new pantheon for each culture.

There is a table with names, locations, and levels of NPC's. THe highest level is 24, though most are well below that. I did notice what appeared to be some 3.X style multiclassing still on the list. There are a few warlocks, but no warlords. Some of the NPC's are given roles from the Monster Manual, rather than classes.

There is very little in the way of crunch, although perhaps they will be allowed to do a 4e phb. For people who already own the books, this is a waste of money. If you are looking for a consistent, old-school, detailed setting, here it is.


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## Wes (Jul 9, 2008)

Ktulu said:


> That's surprising considering the amount of 4e bashing Kenzer&co has delivered in WotC 4e's direction.  Really ironic, too, seeing how Kalamar is to become their official Hackmaster setting when they eventually put out 5th ed Hackmaster.
> 
> I'd have to take a look, but I'd bet they just removed the 3.x magic items and class references from the book and released it as a 4e product.
> 
> ...




I wouldn't call it bashing as much as expressing personal preference, though I take the 'Gary-Speak' with a grain of salt (some don't). Or are you including comments from non K&C staff? K&C also created a forum specifically for the discussion of 4e, which is cool in my books. But opinions differ I guess.

As far as the PDF, yes $25 is steep for an e-release but that does include the full-color atlas as well as the updated campaign guide. It is correct that there's not much crunch, but the 3.X release was the same. IMO its a great snag if you're a fan of KoK and want a electronic version and the updates (ie. the full write-up on Half Hobgoblin) AND its a great snag if you're thinking about KoK but don't want to spring for the hardbacks.


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## hong (Jul 9, 2008)

Syllables. Oh god the syllables.


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## Treebore (Jul 9, 2008)

Vayden said:


> Bummer. Not my cup of tea.





Don't take his word for it. The campaign is friggin rich with details that would drive a person insane to create on their own, so reading it and absorbing it all will come across as very dry. However it is a very well detailed base line campaign that when you use it in "bite sized chunks" will turn into a very well fleshed out and vibrant setting when you integrate those mind numbing details into the game play in equally bite size chunks.

So check it out. It may very well still not be your thing, then again it could be the best setting ever for you.


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## Treebore (Jul 9, 2008)

hong said:


> Syllables. Oh god the syllables.




So? What is one of the first things that really makes you realize your not in your native country anymore? The language the people around you are speaking. So this setting gives you lots of "foreign" words to use to help your players feel like they are in a foreign land.

Its amazing how little things like that can help players transport themselves.


Add in the rich variety of religious faiths they have created and your a long way to feeling like your in a different world. If you have the skills to use these things.


You know the best way to check out Kalamar? Their modules, even if your going to 4E.


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## Fenes (Jul 9, 2008)

25 Dollars is not steep for a PDF given the additional value it offers compared to a hardcover (search feature, bookmarks, protability). That's about one Pizza, soda and snacks, or the average food expense per player for a game session over here.


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## CapnZapp (Jul 9, 2008)

Wyrmshadows said:


> The ONLY downside to the setting IMO is the naming conventions. Wow, Kalamar has some jarringly difficult to pronounce names. Names that are strange sounding for the sake of being strange sounding...kind of like the way a less than steller fantasy author would create. I'm not insulting the creators, but one of my peeves is naming conventions and Kalamar's naming conventions are IMO some of the worst. I am however very picky about such things so you can't necessarily judge using my point of view.
> 
> Give it a try.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately, the names became a showstopper for my group. 

It took a few sessions, but then my players asked to play in a different world, where the names weren't so obviously created with a random generator.

Myself, I had noticed the problem, but hoped that the upsides of the setting coulkd compensate, but no. (I guess the plausible looking maps and atlases were something Kenzer could sell to DMs only).

Opening my Atlas on a random page (page 132) names include Pijkkurzagh, Thizhahagh, Lekkzhawazh, Khoviggazh and Thakakkazh. It quickly becomes all a blur. 

But okay, those names are Orc. Let's flick to another page, uhhm... page 108! Oh, nothing but open ocean, okay...

Page 51! Okay, this is where Bet Kalamar itself resides, so no funny Orc names here.

However, the names still blur to the point of becoming indistinguishable... Sowido, Gobido, Livowido, Vevusido, Merido, Sika'ido, Rilido, Kuvido, Wirido, Tumufido, Naka'akido, Hudepido, Mothisefido, Polido, Thimido, Rogido, Ruwido, ... okay I'm going to stop here, my head hurts. (I'm going to apologize in advance for any misspellings which I'm sure I can't have avoided)

It makes me long for the days of faux-english names (Evilstown, Cape Death, Saint Good...  ) and it makes me realize my players were right.

There may well be a lot of scholarly research behind the Kalamar campaign world, but it must have been confined to mostly the natural sciences - there certainly have been no professor Tolkien around to tell the authors their names suck, and badly at that.


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## Fenes (Jul 9, 2008)

CapnZapp said:


> Page 51! Okay, this is where Bet Kalamar itself resides, so no funny Orc names here.
> 
> However, the names still blur to the point of becoming indistinguishable... Sowido, Gobido, Livowido, Vevusido, Merido, Sika'ido, Rilido, Kuvido, Wirido, Tumufido, Naka'akido, Hudepido, Mothisefido, Polido, Thimido, Rogido, Ruwido, ... okay I'm going to stop here, my head hurts. (I'm going to apologize in advance for any misspellings which I'm sure I can't have avoided)
> 
> ...





Actually, the names do look realistic to me.

Do they sound all alike? Of course they do. Foreign names often sound all alike to people not familiar with them. Even natives have to struggle with very similar names in their own home state.

"-ido" probably means "-village" or "town" in that language. I can't count how many of the names of villages in my home canton end in "-dorf".

I guess you'd go off about how all the "Dielsdorf" "Bassersdorf" "Regensdorf" and so on blur together. You're right in that - but you're completley wrong in that it's not realistic.


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## hong (Jul 9, 2008)

Treebore said:


> So? What is one of the first things that really makes you realize your not in your native country anymore? The language the people around you are speaking. So this setting gives you lots of "foreign" words to use to help your players feel like they are in a foreign land.
> 
> Its amazing how little things like that can help players transport themselves.




Yes, they transport me to the Land of Syllables.

Tolkien got away with it because he was a professional. That doesn't mean YOU do.


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## Fenes (Jul 9, 2008)

hong said:


> Yes, they transport me to the Land of Syllables.
> 
> Tolkien got away with it because he was a professional. That doesn't mean YOU do.




prfr t hv sllbls nstd f n sllbls, bt tht cld b jst m.

I ee o ae yae iea o o yae u ou e u e.

Letters alone don't cut it.


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## Jack99 (Jul 9, 2008)

I must admit I have always considered Kingdoms of Kalamar the worst 3.x book I ever bought. If nothing has changed (style, naming conventions, writing) in the 4e version, that's definitely one book I will never buy, unless I ever suffer from insomnia, since that book could probably cure it.


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## mhensley (Jul 9, 2008)

Kenzerco is definitely not going with the GSL.  



			
				David Kenzer said:
			
		

> Correct, we no longer have an agreement with Wizards. Why? Is there some "magic" restriction in IP law that restricts people from making new creative material that doesn't use any TMs, patents or copyrights of another company?
> 
> Oh, perhaps it's the magical FUD rule that you're referring to?
> 
> By-the-by, KoK first appeared in 1994 and we had no formal relationship with TSR.




http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showpost.php?p=678175&postcount=34


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## Jorunkun (Jul 9, 2008)

It's kinda funny - when I read the design concept of Kalamar, I thought "this is the campaign setting of my dreams", what with all the emphasis on paralleling earth's geological and social development to attain a high degree of realism/believability/whatchammacallit. Well, they say the worst thing is getting exactly what you asked for. Because not only is Kalamar all this, it is also (imho) the single most boring setting I have ever come across. Everything in this world is there for a reason, documented in depth - and utterly uninspiring. Your mileage may vary, but I'd caution against buying this.

J.

Edit: I forgot to mention that this refers to the 3e version of Kalamar.


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## Baumi (Jul 9, 2008)

mhensley said:


> Kenzerco is definitely not going with the GSL.
> ---
> Correct, we no longer have an agreement with Wizards. Why? Is there some "magic" restriction in IP law that restricts people from making new creative material that doesn't use any TMs, patents or copyrights of another company?
> 
> ...




I had a great Campaign as a player in Kalamar, so if someone does not know it and want a Setting with a realistic feel than it's definitively worth a look.

But I have to admit that I am put off by their policy ... They are making money through the new Edition, but instead of working WITH Wotc, they are working against them! Either make your own independent system or work with the creators not AGAINST them ... that will only lead to a fight that might bring a much more restricted GSL in the future 

Also I simply think that it is to early for 3rd Party stuff since we all have still learn the rules. And while the 16page Preview shows nearly no crunch, the bit that they show (hobgoblin) is quite strange since it introduces a encounter-power that has a Trigger but uses a Standard Action instead of an Immediate Action. It could be that they put that purposefully in, but it seems really strange to me.


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## hong (Jul 9, 2008)

Eh, WotC still wins even if Kenzer doesn't sign the GSL. More players playing 4E == more sales of 4E core books, and very likely more sales of splats as well.


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## Fenes (Jul 9, 2008)

Indeed. If Kenzer's books are crunch free - and they seem to be - then WotC's crunch-heavy books are the most likely splatbooks to be picked up by KoK 4E players.


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## Ruin Explorer (Jul 9, 2008)

Baumi said:


> But I have to admit that I am put off by their policy ... They are making money through the new Edition, but instead of working WITH Wotc, they are working against them! Either make your own independent system or work with the creators not AGAINST them ... that will only lead to a fight that might bring a much more restricted GSL in the future




You need to explain how this would "bring a much more restricted GSL in the future", in detail, if you're going to claim that, because is a completely illogical claim, on the face of things.

This product is not under the GSL. If the GSL was more restrictive, it would still not be under the GSL. On the other hand, if the GSL was less restrictive, previous evidence suggests Kenzerco would be using it or a similar license. As I said, there's no logic to your suggestion. The more restrictions one puts in the GSL, the less people will use it, and nowdays companies are a lot more competent at making, confident in making D&D-compatible products. In the old TSR days, where KoK first appeared, things were different, but we're talking about older, more professional, more knowledgeable publishers, and on the contrary, a flood of non-GSL books if such a thing occurred, would be a signal to WotC that their lawyers had been overly grasping, rather than a signal to grasp harder. After all, how much harder could they even grasp? They can already cancel your product line at will, force you to stop publishing any product they want to do, and prevent you from re-using the material in perpetuity. What exactly, beyond that, do you fear?


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## mhensley (Jul 9, 2008)

Ruin Explorer said:


> This product is not under the GSL. If the GSL was more restrictive, it would still not be under the GSL. On the other hand, if the GSL was less restrictive, previous evidence suggests Kenzerco would be using it or a similar license.




Yep, this is a big sign that the GSL is a failure.  I suspect Goodman Games will be going the same route.


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## thundershot (Jul 9, 2008)

I was hoping it'd contain the 3E Kalamar classes. Of course, that'd create another 100 pages of powers alone. 

C'mon Kenzer.... Hook us up with a new updated Goods & Gear.... I want stats for all my animals. And dinosaurs. PACK APE! 



Chris


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## Jack99 (Jul 9, 2008)

mhensley said:


> Yep, this is a big sign that the GSL is a failure.  I suspect Goodman Games will be going the same route.




A failure for whom? I doubt WotC feels that (atm). Maybe for us, but let's get real here., WotC is in it for the money, not for our fanboism or lack thereof.


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## Mark Plemmons (Jul 9, 2008)

pawsplay said:


> I've been yawning over Kalamar since before 3e. Imagine Greyhawk, but written in the style of a 1968 encyclopedia, and with less mind flayers.




Ah, but the 2E version was maybe half the size of the 3E and 4E versions.  So that doubles your mind flayer quotient right there!  

For those who missed it in the OP's post, there's a 16-page preview PDF you can download to check it out.

You'll see that I added some information on "how to read this book", as well as the pronunciation guide to help those of you who have trouble with foreign languages (see the Table of Contents).


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## thundershot (Jul 9, 2008)

Ah, there's Mark.... I knew he'd show up eventually. Dude, hook us up with a new Goods & Gear!! (I know, I'm starting to sound like an echo..) 




Chris


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## theemrys (Jul 9, 2008)

Well, when I first got the Kalamar Campaign book for 3e years ago I was excited, but quickly became bored with it due to it's style... after a while though I really got into the setting (more to do with the other source books).  When I went back to my campaign setting book I realized it's one of the best ones I've ever had.  Sure, I don't find it a good one to sit down and just read cover to cover, but as a reference book when running a game, it's awesome!  

I have had some of the best games I've ever run set in Kalamar (and my player's agreed).  We didn't find the names a big deal and I loved the "realism" behind the geography.  Also, the way the different cultures are setup feels "right" for some reason.  I'm also a fan of "rare magic" settings where it's there and there are powerful items/casters, but they're not common or seen all the time.  It really is a setting where the PCs get to be the heros.

Anyway, if you're interested in a setting which has lots to draw on but gives you lots of room to develop your own game, I highly recommend this setting.


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## redcard (Jul 9, 2008)

I'm looking for a good setting to start a 4e game in.. I was thinking a bout upconverting Eberron, but I don't know a lot about that world.. would this be a good setting for a GM who's not used to using campaign settings and instead is used to doing homebrew worlds?


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## theemrys (Jul 9, 2008)

redcard said:


> I'm looking for a good setting to start a 4e game in.. I was thinking a bout upconverting Eberron, but I don't know a lot about that world.. would this be a good setting for a GM who's not used to using campaign settings and instead is used to doing homebrew worlds?




My personal opinion is that it depends on your style.  If you like the idea of the setting and just want a wealth of background info to draw on, it can work really well.  Given the details on different "human races" and politics and languages, it's really great.  I love the idea that there are no separate pantheons for different races, yet each culture (or race) has their own names for the same gods.  

All in all, I'd say if you're looking for a rich backdrop that you can pull as much detail from as you want, it's great.


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## catsclaw227 (Jul 9, 2008)

Ruin Explorer said:


> It's interesting how preferences vary. I personally love setting books with between 0 and 15% crunch. More than that is taking away valuable setting information. Yet some people seem to prefer "setting books" which are basically 50%+ crunch (like some 3E FR books), and I have a hard time understanding how those aren't just crunch books with a bit of fluff.



Actually, I have a preference to crunch-lite worlds.  I really love the Pirate's Guide to Freeport and I have my heart lost in the (insanely) massive World of Khaas book of Arduin.

 I have a lot of KoK books already, though knowing that they will be moving to 4e, it may make that part of my library a teensy bit more "available" to me when I mine for stuff for my 4e game.  

I was mostly thinking that a book like this may be a reprint of 3e stuff reorganized and with the Atlas attached.  If they add in some more crunch to help make the purchase of a 4e reprint of 3e material more easily digested by my wallet, then all the better.


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## Mark Plemmons (Jul 9, 2008)

catsclaw227 said:


> If they add in some more crunch to help make the purchase of a 4e reprint of 3e material more easily digested by my wallet, then all the better.




Well, if it helps, there are 43 new channeled divinity feats, and some rules suggestions (not statistics) on how to create new subraces for the elves, gnomes, hobgoblins, and other major humanoid races.


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## Mark Plemmons (Jul 9, 2008)

catsclaw227 said:


> I have a lot of KoK books already, though knowing that they will be moving to 4e, it may make that part of my library a teensy bit more "available" to me when I mine for stuff for my 4e game.




We'll still be supporting 3.5 for a bit, if for no other reason than we still have a couple of mostly rules free 3.5 PDF products that are nearly completed.   And the 2E and 3.5e-compatible PDFs will remain on our webstore, of course.


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## GeorgeFields (Jul 9, 2008)

Wes said:


> IMO its a great snag if you're a fan of KoK and want a electronic version and the updates (ie. the full write-up on Half-Hobgoblin).




Exactly why I intend to get it.



hong said:


> Yes, they transport me to the Land of Syllables.
> 
> Tolkien got away with it because he was a professional. That doesn't mean YOU do.




And Kenzer & Co isn't professional?


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## catsclaw227 (Jul 9, 2008)

Mark Plemmons said:


> We'll still be supporting 3.5 for a bit, if for no other reason than we still have a couple of mostly rules free 3.5 PDF products that are nearly completed.   And the 2E and 3.5e-compatible PDFs will remain on our webstore, of course.



Do you have any other planned 4e products for KoK?


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## hong (Jul 9, 2008)

GeoFFields said:


> And Kenzer & Co isn't professional?




No.


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## redcard (Jul 9, 2008)

Mark Plemmons said:


> We'll still be supporting 3.5 for a bit, if for no other reason than we still have a couple of mostly rules free 3.5 PDF products that are nearly completed.   And the 2E and 3.5e-compatible PDFs will remain on our webstore, of course.




Mark, if I may ask..

Would you recommend the adventures for 4e as well?  I know it SAYS that they work.. but.. I mean, let's be honest and such   How much fluff vs crunch do they have?

I'm heavily considering the campaign setting and an adventure to get me going.. my players like the FR , but like it a bit too much for it to be of value to me, so I need  a place to play , and a good adventure can give me a feel for the world.


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## Mercule (Jul 9, 2008)

Wyrmshadows said:


> The ONLY downside to the setting IMO is the naming conventions. Wow, Kalamar has some jarringly difficult to pronounce names. Names that are strange sounding for the sake of being strange sounding...kind of like the way a less than steller fantasy author would create.



It's called "genre convention".


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## Fenes (Jul 9, 2008)

hong said:


> No.




The dictionary disagrees with you.


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## mhensley (Jul 9, 2008)

hong said:


> No.




  And yet, A&8 won the 2007 game of the year award.


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## mhensley (Jul 9, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> A failure for whom? I doubt WotC feels that (atm). Maybe for us, but let's get real here., WotC is in it for the money, not for our fanboism or lack thereof.




A failure for wotc in the sense that they obviously put a lot of time and money into developing the GSL only to see most companies not use it.


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## theemrys (Jul 9, 2008)

redcard said:


> Mark, if I may ask..
> 
> Would you recommend the adventures for 4e as well?  I know it SAYS that they work.. but.. I mean, let's be honest and such   How much fluff vs crunch do they have?
> 
> I'm heavily considering the campaign setting and an adventure to get me going.. my players like the FR , but like it a bit too much for it to be of value to me, so I need  a place to play , and a good adventure can give me a feel for the world.




Well, I can't answer for Kenzer, but I can give my opinion as someone who's played/run a bunch of the Kalamar modules.  

I too find that modules are a great way to get a feel for the setting.  That being said, modules by nature are pretty crunch heavy...  that being said, I've been very impressed with many of the Kalamar modules for the story behind them and the feel for them.  There would be some work to convert and look at "rebalancing" them for 4e.  

Personally I'd recommend (and this is only my opinion) that you grab a few of the cheaper PDF adventures they have and read them over for the feel and then decide if you want to convert or just "create your own" with a similar story.


----------



## Jack99 (Jul 9, 2008)

mhensley said:


> A failure for wotc in the sense that they obviously put a lot of time and money into developing the GSL only to see most companies not use it.




I usually hate conspiracy talk, but..

What if WotC doesn't want the big 3PP making official 4e stuff? They make the GSL, release it, and watch most big 3PP say, thanks but no thanks. They get what they want, while preserving the illusion of actually trying.

If so, I guess they would call the GSL a success. 

Anyway, enough rambling on this, back to the Kingdom of Kalamar stuff.


----------



## wayne62682 (Jul 9, 2008)

I've always been intrigued about Kalamar, but I have to admit the names are a huge turn-off.  It might be realistic, but I have no idea how to friggin' *pronounce* any of them.  Maybe if they had a pronunciation guide or something.


----------



## theemrys (Jul 9, 2008)

wayne62682 said:


> Maybe if they had a pronunciation guide or something.




See Mark P's post above... looks like they added just that!


----------



## redcard (Jul 9, 2008)

And one last question before I impulse buy this 

Are there solid adventure hooks in there?  I know from reading the preview that it suggests there are.. but.. does anyone with experience on this know if that's a legit statement?


----------



## Mark Plemmons (Jul 9, 2008)

catsclaw227 said:


> Do you have any other planned 4e products for KoK?




It's hard to say right at this moment, but we do have a couple of v3.5 PDF supplements nearly completed, and they may be altered to 4E, or simply have both a v3.5 and 4E version.  Though the conversion may take time.  Some of the older KoK products could be updated to 4E too, but again that will take some time to do.  Our main focus is on the next edition of HackMaster (which will use the KoK setting as its base, with world supplement books being as rules-free as possible) and Aces & Eights.

Of course, if someone comes to us with their own adventure or supplement for use with 4E, and set in the KoK setting, that could open up new products too.


----------



## Alzrius (Jul 9, 2008)

Mark Plemmons said:


> It's hard to say right at this moment, but we do have a couple of v3.5 PDF supplements nearly completed, and they may be altered to 4E, or simply have both a v3.5 and 4E version.




I'd be somewhat surprised if WotC let you guys do that. I mean, I know your D&D products have second-party status, and so can do a lot of things, but to have 3.5 and 4E versions of the same PDF product sounds too good to be true.


----------



## Mark Plemmons (Jul 9, 2008)

redcard said:


> Mark, if I may ask..
> 
> Would you recommend the adventures for 4e as well?  I know it SAYS that they work.. but.. I mean, let's be honest and such   How much fluff vs crunch do they have?




Well, all our PDF adventures in the KoK setting are for use with v3.5, so you'd have to change all the rules info (monsters, NPC stats, skills and their DCs, magic items, and any other little bits).  I think the flavor vs. crunch is more flavor-heavy than with the WotC modules, but you'd still have to do conversion work as if you wanted to use a v3.5 WotC module with 4E, just a little bit less of it.  It's possible these will be converted for use with 4E, but that's going to take time.


----------



## Mark Plemmons (Jul 9, 2008)

wayne62682 said:


> I've always been intrigued about Kalamar, but I have to admit the names are a huge turn-off.  It might be realistic, but I have no idea how to friggin' *pronounce* any of them.  Maybe if they had a pronunciation guide or something.




Ah, but it does!  

The pronunciation guide/glossary is on pages 269-274...


----------



## Mark Plemmons (Jul 9, 2008)

Alzrius said:


> I'd be somewhat surprised if WotC let you guys do that. I mean, I know your D&D products have second-party status, and so can do a lot of things, but to have 3.5 and 4E versions of the same PDF product sounds too good to be true.




Our '2nd party' status ended last November or so, when our license agreement ended.  We're not using their logos or copying any of their material, like we could before.  Likewise, we're not using the GSL.


----------



## theemrys (Jul 9, 2008)

redcard said:


> And one last question before I impulse buy this
> 
> Are there solid adventure hooks in there?  I know from reading the preview that it suggests there are.. but.. does anyone with experience on this know if that's a legit statement?




I seem to remember quite a few from the Campaign Setting book (3e) which this is an updated version of, but I'll need to go back and confirm for sure.  I remember though thinking it was more like what the old 1e Forgotten Realms books were like... lots of flavour and ideas but leaving the details for you work out on your own.

I can say with certainty that the interactions of the churchs and nations are more than enough "hooks" for me.  I've heard of many campaigns being based around the "occupation" of Karista (dwarven capital/nation) by the Empire of Kalamar...  Also, there are a lot of prejudices which always make for interesting plot devices to work in...


----------



## Obryn (Jul 9, 2008)

I checked out the PDF, and parts are interesting.

However, the half-hobgoblin racial power doesn't make a bit of sense.

It's a Standard Action with a trigger...  I don't think it works that way.  Triggers are for Immediate Reactions and some Free actions - that is, actions which aren't taken on your turn.

If you want to restrict targets, leave out the Trigger line, but add something like...

*Special: *This power can only be used on an opponent who has been given an offer to surrender, but declined.


This gives me little confidence in the mechanics presented elsewhere in the book...

-O


----------



## GeorgeFields (Jul 9, 2008)

Mark Plemmons said:


> It's hard to say right at this moment, but *we do have a couple of v3.5 PDF supplements nearly completed,* and they may be altered to 4E, or simply have both a v3.5 and 4E version.




Some of us are waiting for some of those. 

Back to the new book...

How much new material is in it compared to the 3e version?


----------



## racoffin (Jul 9, 2008)

I've enjoyed the Kalamar setting myself, finding it pretty detailed and interesting.

And the names bit isn't a real issue, anymore than some of the names in other settings or finding yet another scrambled letter 'Gygax' in the Greyhawk stuff.


----------



## Mark Plemmons (Jul 9, 2008)

Obryn said:


> I checked out the PDF, and parts are interesting.
> 
> However, the half-hobgoblin racial power doesn't make a bit of sense.
> 
> ...




You're right, many triggers are for Immediate and Free actions, but the 4E PHB does mention using triggers with Standard and other actions, such as in readying an action, with rituals, and so on.

I intentionally used an existing rule mechanic (the trigger) instead of adding a "Special" line that might confuse the issue (not that I'm against 'Special' lines - I like using them too).  In this case, though, it works the same either way.

Just so you know there was some thought behind it.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Jul 9, 2008)

Mark Plemmons said:
			
		

> Our '2nd party' status ended last November or so, when our license agreement ended. We're not using their logos or copying any of their material, like we could before. Likewise, we're not using the GSL.




Y'know, Kalamar has never particularly excited me (it's old school, which is cool, just not in my usual taste), but this move excites me, so I think I might buy this PDF anyway and pillage it viking-style for Interesting Tidbits.


----------



## Mark Plemmons (Jul 9, 2008)

GeoFFields said:


> Back to the new book...
> 
> How much new material is in it compared to the 3e version?




Let me think...

There are a few new paragraphs here and there throughout, of course, but I think the biggest additions are:

- humanoids: I took and edited some material from the v3.5 Player's Guide to the Sovereign Lands, talking about the humanoid races, and wrote up some new info there about creating new races (like the half-orc) and subraces (like the deep gnome) that don't exist in the PHB.

- region summary: Each region also has a condensed summary about its history (as well as the detailed one), so you can get a quicker feel for the history to see if you want to read more.

- more deity/church info: I tried to fit each church/deity on a single page, to make it easier to flip through and use.  That meant adding a paragraph or two here and there (usually from the Divine Masters supplement) to fill some space.  When an entry was too long to fit on one page, I made it and the following entry each 1.5 pages, to balance it out and get the next entry in line back to one page.  So the gods chaper is MUCH easier to flip through.  I also used the more detailed reference charts from Divine Masters, though of course I had to modify them quite a bit for 4E.

- feats: The gods chapter also has a new channeled divinity feat for each of the 43 faiths, so that's a few more pages.

- Atlas: Of course, it's also got the Atlas as the entire second half, so that's a pretty massive addition too.  

Ok, lunch break is nearly over and I still need to eat.  I'll check back in later to see if there are more questions.


----------



## Heselbine (Jul 9, 2008)

I've been following this thread and I have to say something about Kalamar.

I ran a Kalamar campaign for about two years, and it was very successful. The (for me) very best bit about Kalamar is that it's been thought through as a complete world concept, and because of that it hangs together very well. Personally a world that feels like an actual world rather than a few things which just happen to be next to each other (e.g. Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms) is very appealing.

Added to this, you have the Kalamar atlas, which is just about the best RPG supplement ever produced, and which I think is (almost?) entirely stat-free so won't need any updating.

Down-sides of Kalamar: I've found that sometimes they'll put in rules crunch which is either not quite in the spirit of the game, which is overpowering, or which doesn't quite fit. Not a big problem, however.

I'd thoroughly recommend Kalamar if you want:

1) a "realistic" (in the sense of it all hangs together) world
2) a fairly straight setting (no magic trains etc.)
3) a classic D&D experience

BTW, I've nothing against Greyhawk or FR, or Eberron, but I love Kalamar and I'm at a bit of a loss to understand why it's not more popular.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (Jul 9, 2008)

GeoFFields said:


> And Kenzer & Co isn't professional?




Professional worldbuilders?  Professional game designers?  Sure.

Professional philologists?  I can't answer that.


----------



## Rakor (Jul 9, 2008)

Is there anywhere to purchase the PDF besides the Kenzer and Co website? I would like to buy this product without providing my street address, phone number and gender. Will it be available at, say, drivethrurpg?


----------



## NewJeffCT (Jul 9, 2008)

Mark Plemmons said:


> We'll still be supporting 3.5 for a bit, if for no other reason than we still have a couple of mostly rules free 3.5 PDF products that are nearly completed.   And the 2E and 3.5e-compatible PDFs will remain on our webstore, of course.




any hints on what those books are for 3.5?


----------



## Vendark (Jul 9, 2008)

Looking at the preview, it strikes me as pretty ballsy to mention eladrin, tieflings, and dragonborn as being part of the setting. I would have thought eladrin and tieflings at least would be trademarked, seeing as how they were introduced all the way back in Planescape days.


----------



## NewJeffCT (Jul 9, 2008)

pawsplay said:


> I've been yawning over Kalamar since before 3e. Imagine Greyhawk, but written in the style of a 1968 encyclopedia, and with less mind flayers.




Less mind-flayers in Kalamar?

Have you read their section on the SNoBS? (Secret Network of the Blue Salamander) They are a group of mind-flayers intent on world domination that have infiltrated nearly every government and major organization on the planet.


----------



## Wayside (Jul 9, 2008)

Fenes said:


> The dictionary disagrees with you.



The dictionary defines professional linguists as people who write RPGs?


----------



## Treebore (Jul 9, 2008)

Vendark said:


> Looking at the preview, it strikes me as pretty ballsy to mention eladrin, tieflings, and dragonborn as being part of the setting. I would have thought eladrin and tieflings at least would be trademarked, seeing as how they were introduced all the way back in Planescape days.





Those words are NOT owned by WOTC/Hasbro. They aren't owned by anyone.

Think about it, if you read lots of fantasy novels. You've seen those words before, and they were not in WOTC/D&D novels.


----------



## ST (Jul 9, 2008)

There was a time when a product like this would have really excited me.

These days, though, looking through the preview pages (especially the "Why this product is awesome" bit, which reads like "Here's what we didn't like about Forgotten Realms"), I realized that I'm pretty much sold on Points of Light as a method of handling campaign settings these days.

I just don't have the patience to _care_ about stuff like caravan trade routes and cultural clashes any more... unless they're happening right where the PCs are living.  Even the grandaddy of all settings Grayhawk was something that came about organically during play.

But there are people who dig this stuff, I totally get that. And it is nice to see people ignoring the GSL and just publishing according to IP law, good for them.


----------



## Vendark (Jul 9, 2008)

Treebore said:


> Those words are NOT owned by WOTC/Hasbro. They aren't owned by anyone.
> 
> Think about it, if you read lots of fantasy novels. You've seen those words before, and they were not in WOTC/D&D novels.




Eladrin and Tiefling? Can't say I have.


----------



## Jolly_Blackburn (Jul 9, 2008)

ST said:


> But there are people who dig this stuff, I totally get that.




Amen to that. We make a living off of those people. 

One of the reasons there tends to be so many world settings if the fact 
gamers' taste vary so greatly. So it's been nice catering to one flavor among many out there and having it prove worthwhile.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jul 9, 2008)

Wayside said:


> The dictionary defines professional linguists as people who write RPGs?



Sure, if it's _Volo's Dictionary_.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jul 9, 2008)

Will this book be making the jump to hard copy, or will it be digital only?


----------



## Jolly_Blackburn (Jul 9, 2008)

ST said:


> These days, though, looking through the preview pages (especially the "Why this product is awesome" bit, which reads like "Here's what we didn't like about Forgotten Realms"),




Valid point. It also happens to be a proven (and very effective way) of telling a visitor very quickly what your product IS (and what it isn't) before you lose them and they move on.


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## The Lost Muse (Jul 9, 2008)

Will you give a free download of a Kalamar module to everyone who purchases the setting/atlas pdf? It's nice to have a little something to start from with a new setting.


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## GeorgeFields (Jul 9, 2008)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Will this book be making the jump to hard copy, or will it be digital only?






			
				Kenzer product page said:
			
		

> NOTE: WE PLAN TO MAKE THIS PRODUCT AVAILABLE IN THE NEAR FUTURE AS AN GRAYSCALE PRINT-ON-DEMAND BOOK FROM LULU.COM. TO ORDER THE COLOR PDF VERSION (68 MB), CONTINUE ON THIS PAGE.




Yep! A 500 page Kalamar book would look good on my shelf.


----------



## ST (Jul 9, 2008)

Damn, Jolly, you don't have to refute me -- I love you guys! Quit making me feel guilty! 

Just kidding, those are good points. I totally get that "Why you'll love our product" had *better* be relevant to how you compare to other large campaign settings, since they're the competition.


----------



## Rakor (Jul 9, 2008)

I'm guessing that's a "no" as to alternate places to make the purchase. I feel like a jerk saying it but you guys lost one sale by requiring street address, name, gender and email to make a purchase.


----------



## GeorgeFields (Jul 9, 2008)

Mark Plemmons said:


> Let me think...
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Ok, lunch break is nearly over and I still need to eat.  I'll check back in later to see if there are more questions.




Basically, the only "new" stuff is for 4e.

Even though I have zero interest in 4e, I'll be getting this for the search and copy&paste factors. I've been wanting a pdf of the campaign guide for quite some time. Having the atlas in with it just makes it sweeter. Being able to print out maps to write on will be quite valuable for me.


----------



## The Little Raven (Jul 9, 2008)

Mark Plemmons said:


> Likewise, we're not using the GSL.




Y'know, Palladium very nearly buried WotC for less than this, because of The Primal Order.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jul 9, 2008)

PoD stuff from Lulu makes me happy. If I was a gazillionaire, I'd pay all my favorite PDF publishers to convert their stuff to PoD supplements. (Lulu can apparently be a little fiddly if you don't plan for it early on.)


----------



## Mark Plemmons (Jul 9, 2008)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Will this book be making the jump to hard copy, or will it be digital only?




There will be a Print On Demand version on LULU.com in the near future.  Probably before the end of next week, but I can't swear to that.

We already have several books up on LULU.


----------



## Mark Plemmons (Jul 9, 2008)

Rakor said:


> I'm guessing that's a "no" as to alternate places to make the purchase.




Hey, wait until I have a chance to answer the question!  

We will be adding the PDF to other sites in the near future, along with all the other stuff we already have up on sites like drivethrurpg.



Rakor said:


> I feel like a jerk saying it but you guys lost one sale by requiring street address, name, gender and email to make a purchase.




Sorry that's a problem for you.    Our credit card company likes to have things like name and billing address.  Email is also handy in case there's a problem and we need to contact you.  We do not distribute or sell your information.

 If it helps, you can always lie about your gender.


----------



## Amphimir Míriel (Jul 9, 2008)

Fenes said:


> 25 Dollars is not steep for a PDF given the additional value it offers compared to a hardcover (search feature, bookmarks, protability). That's about one Pizza, soda and snacks, or the average food expense per player for a game session over here.




Heh, rarely do we spend more than the equivalent to $20.00USD on food and drinks for the entire group over here.

Then again, living in the third world had to have at least *some* advantages...


----------



## thundershot (Jul 9, 2008)

Wait..... doesn't RPGNow need a name and address too? And e-mail?


----------



## Amphimir Míriel (Jul 9, 2008)

edited:  I posted before I noticed that a couple of folks had posted the same thing already


----------



## GeorgeFields (Jul 9, 2008)

Mark Plemmons said:


> There will be a Print On Demand version on LULU.com in the near future.  Probably before the end of next week, but I can't swear to that.
> 
> We already have several books up on LULU.




I've gotten two books from LuLu, and they've both been top notch as far as physical quality. I've got two more to get in the near future, three if I decide to get a dead tree version of this. I need to decide if I want to lug around a 500 page Kalamar book or not.


----------



## cildarith (Jul 10, 2008)

I'm a little concerned how the Atlas portion will look in grayscale.


----------



## GeorgeFields (Jul 10, 2008)

I just did some basic math at LuLu.

The Kalamar Player's Guide to the Sovereign Lands is $39.99 for 275 pages. (hardcover)
Greed & Glory is $18.99 for 81 pages.(softcover)
Dijishy is $15.99 for 65 pages. (softcover)
Divine Masters is $29.99 for 259 pages. (softcover)

Is that going to put this in the $75 - $80 range for 500 pages?


----------



## Treebore (Jul 10, 2008)

Mourn said:


> Y'know, Palladium very nearly buried WotC for less than this, because of The Primal Order.






*deleted* NVM, too likely to start up another Paladium board war.


----------



## The Little Raven (Jul 10, 2008)

GeoFFields said:


> I just did some basic math at LuLu.
> 
> The Kalamar Player's Guide to the Sovereign Lands is $39.99 for 275 pages. (hardcover)
> Greed & Glory is $18.99 for 81 pages.(softcover)
> ...




Well, LULU.COM's pricing puts a (8" x 11") 500 page perfect bound softcover at roughly $79 to print one ($72 to print, at the highest volume discount), which would put the price even higher if they wanted to make any profit off of it.

Unless they work some kind of magic, I foresee this book's price being higher than $80.


----------



## The Little Raven (Jul 10, 2008)

Treebore said:


> *deleted* NVM, too likely to start up another Paladium board war.




I'm not interested in a Palladium board war. I was just pointing out that Palladium sued WotC for referencing their system and providing a little conversion material, and K&Co is putting D&D's name on the cover of their book and using game mechanics. If Palladium was able to maintain a suit for a long enough period of time to nearly ruin WotC, then WotC could probably do the same to K&CO much more easily. I'm just suggesting that they be careful, because the 800-lb. gorilla doesn't necessarily have to win a court case in order to achieve their objective.


----------



## Rakor (Jul 10, 2008)

I'm sorry, that was my bad. (seemingly) Randomly being asked for personal information on the internet rubs me the wrong way. I overreacted and then forgot that a dozen posts after mine doesn't mean that a reasonable amount of time has passed since I posted. I'm looking forward to reading up on Kalamar.


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## The Little Raven (Jul 10, 2008)

Mourn said:


> Well, LULU.COM's pricing puts a (8" x 11") 500 page perfect bound softcover at roughly $79 to print one ($72 to print, at the highest volume discount), which would put the price even higher if they wanted to make any profit off of it.
> 
> Unless they work some kind of magic, I foresee this book's price being higher than $80.




To be clear, this is for full color.

A B&W book of the same size would be roughly $15 to print ($12 at highest volume discount).


----------



## tenkar (Jul 10, 2008)

Mourn said:


> Y'know, Palladium very nearly buried WotC for less than this, because of The Primal Order.




KenzerCo went this route back when 2E was out.  There were no repercussions. I think they know what they are doing at this point.  They aren't the first to avoid the GSL and assuredly will not be the last.


----------



## Alzrius (Jul 10, 2008)

I'm still a bit confused over how Kenzer can do this at all. The GSL seems to forbid continuing to sell 3.5 product lines once one of the books goes 4E. Likewise, it forbids selling GSL products before 10/01/08.

Since Kenzer's special license(s) with WotC ended last November, don't they have to use the GSL like everyone else? Or are they using the "copyright lets us do it" stance? Or is there just something I'm missing?


----------



## The Little Raven (Jul 10, 2008)

Alzrius said:


> Or are they using the "copyright lets us do it" stance?




This is the stance they seem to be taking. Hopefully, it won't bite them in the ass.


----------



## hong (Jul 10, 2008)

mhensley said:


> And yet, A&8 won the 2007 game of the year award.



Context, for those who missed it:



> Treebore said:
> 
> 
> > So? What is one of the first things that really makes you realize your not in your native country anymore? The language the people around you are speaking. So this setting gives you lots of "foreign" words to use to help your players feel like they are in a foreign land.
> ...


----------



## mhensley (Jul 10, 2008)

hong said:


> Context, for those who missed it:




Sorry hong,  I'm not used to your posts having any context.


----------



## hong (Jul 10, 2008)

I am not a context-free grammar! I am a FREE MAN!


----------



## Mark Plemmons (Jul 10, 2008)

Alzrius said:


> I'm still a bit confused over how Kenzer can do this at all. The GSL seems to forbid continuing to sell 3.5 product lines once one of the books goes 4E. Likewise, it forbids selling GSL products before 10/01/08.
> 
> Since Kenzer's special license(s) with WotC ended last November, don't they have to use the GSL like everyone else? Or are they using the "copyright lets us do it" stance? Or is there just something I'm missing?




No one "has" to use the GSL.  Using the GSL gives you the right to use some exclusive logos and such, but also comes with some restrictions, like those you mentioned.

If you're familiar with copyright law, there are other options.  As David Kenzer said on our boards (and keep in mind that he's a copyright/intellectual property lawyer in his day job ), "there is no "magic" restriction in IP law that restricts people from making new creative material that doesn't use any TMs, patents or copyrights of another company."  

"SHould every programmer that writes a program that works with a computer have to pay the owner of the OS it runs on? I think not. I could be wrong, but fortunately, the US and International copyright laws agree with me.  A world where one could not reference others' materials in their product would be a dark and sad place."


----------



## Banshee16 (Jul 10, 2008)

Treebore said:


> Those words are NOT owned by WOTC/Hasbro. They aren't owned by anyone.
> 
> Think about it, if you read lots of fantasy novels. You've seen those words before, and they were not in WOTC/D&D novels.




Maybe I haven't read the correct books, but the *only* places I've read the names Eladrin and Tiefling have been in WotC or TSR books.

Banshee


----------



## grickherder (Jul 10, 2008)

Mark Plemmons said:


> If you're familiar with copyright law, there are other options. As David Kenzer said on our boards (and keep in mind that he's a copyright/intellectual property lawyer in his day job ), "there is no "magic" restriction in IP law that restricts people from making new creative material that doesn't use any TMs, patents or copyrights of another company."




Kudos to Kenzer & Co for using their legal rights and not kowtowing to some restrictive license that grants less rights than you already legally have.

I took a look at the preview document for Kalamar.  Looks like interesting stuff.  I'm generally more of an intuitive continuity guy, so I don't really go for detailed pre-designed settings though.  I'll have to take a closer look and see what might be useful for ideas though.


----------



## Treebore (Jul 10, 2008)

Banshee16 said:


> Maybe I haven't read the correct books, but the *only* places I've read the names Eladrin and Tiefling have been in WotC or TSR books.
> 
> Banshee





If you guys want to know what WOTC has trademarked or copyrighted they tell you in that small print in the front of their books. IF it ain't listed, you can use it. Just be as original as possible with how you use anything that WOTC also uses.

I do not understand the fear everyone has of copyright law.

I am also interested in any factual info about Paladium almost bringing WOTC to its knees. I would have thought with how closely I follow the industry I would have heard of such a thing.

Sounds like Paladium bluster to me. Any AP news releases, or similarly reliable sources, would be appreciated.


----------



## Treebore (Jul 10, 2008)

NVM, I found the lawsuit info myself. "Brought WOTC to their knees", or any statement similar to that is HIGHLY exagerating the extent of the lawsuit.

This is according to info I found written by Kevin S. himself, in the archives of his website.


----------



## mhensley (Jul 10, 2008)

Treebore said:


> NVM, I found the lawsuit info myself. "Brought WOTC to their knees", or any statement similar to that is HIGHLY exagerating the extent of the lawsuit.
> 
> This is according to info I found written by Kevin S. himself, in the archives of his website.




IIRC, this was also before MtG and WotC was still a tiny company with little resources.


----------



## Staffan (Jul 10, 2008)

Treebore said:


> I am also interested in any factual info about Paladium almost bringing WOTC to its knees. I would have thought with how closely I follow the industry I would have heard of such a thing.



I think it's somewhat exaggerated. Basically, the story goes like this:

1. Some dude named Peter Adkison writes a book on how to play gods (The Primal Order), starts a new RPG company called Wizards of the Coast to publish it, and includes an appendix on how to apply the stuff in the book to various RPGs (including AD&D and Palladium).

2. Palladium takes exception and sues Wizards of the Coast. TSR takes a somewhat more mellow stance, sending a C&D note telling WOTC to drop that section if they reprint it.

3. WOTC spins off a second company, Garfield Games, to do some stuff providing a legal shelter from the Palladium lawsuit for those things. This includes RoboRally and, at first, Magic.

4. The lawsuit is settled, WOTC pays Palladium some cash, and go on their merry way.

I don't know if the lawsuit came close to "bringing WOTC to their knees", but it was apparently bad enough that they set up a shell company to keep some of their new properties safe from it. It should be noted that this was pre-Magic, and Palladium was at the time one of the bigshots of the RPG industry (in the top 3 - I'm told that when TSR was on the verge of bankruptcy and closed down for half a year, Palladium actually managed to outsell them that year). The settlement of the lawsuit happened in the same year Magic was released.


----------



## Zaister (Jul 10, 2008)

The one thing I remenber about Primal Order was that your god character could have an abilty called "Limited Omnipotence". I still find that funny today


----------



## justanobody (Jul 10, 2008)

mhensley said:


> 501 page pdf!  GSL or not?
> 
> By this cover, I'm guessing not.




Why not? It states on the cover it is for use with 4th Edition. Doesn't the compatibility logo have to go on the BACK of the product, so since we are seeing the front only we don't know what the back cover holds.


----------



## cildarith (Jul 10, 2008)

Which part of Post #67 in this thread is unclear to you?


----------



## thundershot (Jul 10, 2008)

justanobody said:


> Why not? It states on the cover it is for use with 4th Edition. Doesn't the compatibility logo have to go on the BACK of the product, so since we are seeing the front only we don't know what the back cover holds.






You really need to read the thread. Mark Plemmons flat out said they're not using the GSL. There's no more speculation involved...



Chris


----------



## Jolly_Blackburn (Jul 10, 2008)

Staffan said:


> 4. The lawsuit is settled, WOTC pays Palladium some cash, and go on their merry way.




My recollection is that GAMA stepped in as a mediator after the lawsuit was settled and convinced Palladium 'not to destroy a small company" and waiving the cash settlement. Then MTG hit a few months later.

At least that's what I recall Kevin saying back in 1994 or so.

THey may have had their court costs covered however.

And since this was before MTG it did indeed bring WotC to its knees.
THey were cash strapped at the time. 

In fact they were paying folks with stock. 
They even offered to pay for an ad in Shadis at the time with stock.


----------



## WizarDru (Jul 10, 2008)

Jolly_Blackburn said:


> My recollection is that GAMA stepped in as a mediator after the lawsuit was settled and convinced Palladium 'not to destroy a small company" and waiving the cash settlement. Then MTG hit a few months later.




From RPG.net's History of Game:  







			
				RPG.net said:
			
		

> "The Palladium lawsuit almost put Wizards of the Coast out of business. Palladium's Kevin Siembieda consistently demanded an "acknowledgement of guilt" which Wizards was unwilling to sign. (If they had, they might have been liable to every other publisher who's game had been featured in The Primal Order.) Fortunately Mike Pondsmith of R. Talsorian, and then GAMA President, was able arbitrate and in March of 1993 an agreement came about. Wizards' official statement on the issue was this:
> 
> _The lawsuit between Kevin Siembieda, Palladium Books, Inc. and Wizards of the Coast, Inc. has been settled. All three of them want to put the suit behind them, and hope that their fans will do the same. In the spirit of industry harmony, Wizards requests that there be no boycotts or other action against Palladium. Thanks to all who have shown concern and support to both sides._
> 
> Later reports suggested that calling off boycotts (as this statement did) was part of that settlement agreement, along with payment by Wizards of an unspecified amount of cash, and promises for Wizards not to mention Palladium ever again in their games. "





As for setting up a shell company, that was done to protect the IP AND to protect WotC, should M:TG go belly up.  That way, it couldn't destroy the company if it failed.

And from the same article:


			
				RPG.net said:
			
		

> "The game that would become Magic: The Gathering was very nearly not released. The original request for a "cheaper" game ended up being hugely ironic once Wizards realized the huge scale required to produce a collectible card game. Add that on to the financial woes caused by the Palladium lawsuit and Wizards was practically begging for money. Requests went throughout the industry and across the Internet. Shares were sold in Garfield Games, then (after the lawsuit) merged into Wizards of the Coast at a 8:5 premium. So much stock was sold that it would cause problems for Wizards a few years later when they began approaching 500 individual shareholders, which would have forced them to begin reporting publicly. (A stock buyback at the time reduced the shareholder number and resolved the problem.) However, it got the job done, and Wizards stayed in business and got the printing money they needed. "


----------



## phil500 (Jul 10, 2008)

I just cant see myself paying for a pdf.

you can get heaps of roleplaying pdfs for free, some of which have to be comparable to this one.

browsing an rpg book is a great joy, browsing a pdf feels like work


----------



## mhensley (Jul 10, 2008)

Is it too late to start a boycott of Paladium?  Uh, nevermind... I don't think I've ever bought anything from them anyway.


----------



## catsclaw227 (Jul 10, 2008)

phil500 said:


> I just cant see myself paying for a pdf.
> 
> you can get heaps of roleplaying pdfs for free, some of which have to be comparable to this one.



Really?  From where I sit, unless you get them illegally, there aren't any roleplaying PDFs for free that come even remotely close to this. And of the ones that ARE for free, they are usually an enhancement for an existing for-sale product, or a marketing item to get some press for a new product line.


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## S'mon (Jul 10, 2008)

CapnZapp said:


> U Pijkkurzagh, Thizhahagh, Lekkzhawazh, Khoviggazh and Thakakkazh.... Sowido, Gobido, Livowido, Vevusido, Merido, Sika'ido, Rilido, Kuvido, Wirido, Tumufido, Naka'akido, Hudepido, Mothisefido, Polido, Thimido, Rogido, Ruwido...
> 
> There may well be a lot of scholarly research behind the Kalamar campaign world, but it must have been confined to mostly the natural sciences - there certainly have been no professor Tolkien around to tell the authors their names suck, and badly at that.




*This*

_OMG that's my first ever *This*!_ 

Yeah, I bought 3e Kingdoms of Kalamar, but the moment I saw _Principality of Pekal_, I knew Kalamar and me were not going to be friends.  The names are just appalling.  If I were them I'd reissue the setting with all the names 'translated into English' - instead of Tumufido and Naka'akido, for gods' sakes give me the White Bone Hills and the Land of Two Lakes.  Or anything, anything but those endless collections of silly syllables.


----------



## phil500 (Jul 10, 2008)

I meant illegally.

I guess the publishers know better than I do, but I would think putting out your content in such an easily stealable, inconvenient to read format would be a bad idea.  the marginal cost is virtually zero though, so I can see how it is good.


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 10, 2008)

800 lbs. gorillas are not apt comparisons here.  One presumes that Kenzer would work pro bono for his own company, and since he's an attorney specializing in IP law, I think they can confidently say that the old adage that "one doesn't need to win a lawsuit to crush their opposition" doesn't apply to them.

I really like the conceit of Kalamar, and I don't mind "dry" text at all.  Of course, I read anthropology, linguistics and archeology textbooks for fun, so take that for what its worth.


----------



## Mark Plemmons (Jul 10, 2008)

S'mon said:


> *This*
> 
> _OMG that's my first ever *This*!_
> 
> Yeah, I bought 3e Kingdoms of Kalamar, but the moment I saw _Principality of Pekal_, I knew Kalamar and me were not going to be friends.  The names are just appalling.  If I were them I'd reissue the setting with all the names 'translated into English' - instead of Tumufido and Naka'akido, for gods' sakes give me the White Bone Hills and the Land of Two Lakes.  Or anything, anything but those endless collections of silly syllables.




Different strokes for different folks.  

To me, the great thing about the different languages in the Kingdoms of Kalamar setting is that, after you've used the setting for a bit, you and your players will be able to recognize most people and places simply by hearing or reading their names.

For example, Brandobian uses certain consonents more than others, and a few single letters that sound like LD, LN, ND, VL, and VR, and translate this way into English (Merchant's Tongue) - so you've got Volven, Galborn, etc.  

In Kalamaran, vowels and consonants are never found in pairs, unless separated by an apostrophe, which indicates that the word originated in another region and was adapted by the Kalamarans.  So you see Valamir, Ar'Tur, etc.

If everything was "White Mountains," "Dry Desert," etc., it would lose a lot of cultural feel.

It's okay that it's not for everyone, but I happen to love it.


----------



## Treebore (Jul 10, 2008)

WizarDru said:


> From RPG.net's History of Game:
> 
> 
> As for setting up a shell company, that was done to protect the IP AND to protect WotC, should M:TG go belly up.  That way, it couldn't destroy the company if it failed.
> ...





Thank you.


----------



## GeorgeFields (Jul 10, 2008)

Mark Plemmons said:


> Different strokes for different folks.
> 
> To me, the great thing about the different languages in the Kingdoms of Kalamar setting is that, after you've used the setting for a bit, you and your players will be able to recognize most people and places simply by hearing or reading their names.
> 
> ...





When are you going to release "The Dark Side of Teleene"? Some of us want to know what's beyond the Sea of Dread and Brandobian Ocean.


----------



## Treebore (Jul 10, 2008)

Mark Plemmons said:


> Different strokes for different folks.
> 
> To me, the great thing about the different languages in the Kingdoms of Kalamar setting is that, after you've used the setting for a bit, you and your players will be able to recognize most people and places simply by hearing or reading their names.
> 
> ...




Don't worry about it MArk. I have a gut feeling that the people who complain about the words/languages used in KoK are the same people who have never read a detailed map of other countries, like Kazahkistan, and tried to figure out how to say those words.

Using the words you did does the same thing seeing words that I have to guess at pronouncing does, it helps me feel like I am in a foreign land. That is the biggest thing that hits me and tells me I am not at home anymore. I don't know the language.

I imagine most DM's don't bother trying such things, but for those of us who do, we know how well it works to help force the player to feel like they are in a foreign culture/world. An effect most players enjoy, because its the first time a DM ever did such a thing to them, and because it succeeded in making them feel like they were someplace foreign to them.

Plus the ones, in my experience, who didn't like it, were the ones who failed to adapt to the change.


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 10, 2008)

Actually... the names is one of the things I don't like about the setting, and I'm an amateur linguistics nut.

:shrug:

I find that in practice, the names all muddle together in player's minds as unpronounceable muck that they can't keep straight.

Granted; other than that, I quite like the setting, though.


----------



## Wyrmshadows (Jul 10, 2008)

Treebore said:


> Don't worry about it MArk. I have a gut feeling that the people who complain about the words/languages used in KoK are the same people who have never read a detailed map of other countries, like Kazahkistan, and tried to figure out how to say those words.
> 
> Using the words you did does the same thing seeing words that I have to guess at pronouncing does, it helps me feel like I am in a foreign land. That is the biggest thing that hits me and tells me I am not at home anymore. I don't know the language.
> 
> ...




Now, now....be fair.

I am perhaps the biggest, nit-picky, versimilitude nut on this board and I have to say that it isn't the foreign sound of the names that throws me, its the lack of aesthetic sensibilities that allow the words to trip easily off the tongue despite their non-english nature.

For example, in Dragonlance the elven word for master is _shalifi_, a completely non-english word that still flows off the tongue. Tolkien was a linguist and his languages flow easily even for non-dwarven or non-elven speakers. Its an issue of aesthetic taste for me and not merely that the words aren't in english. I expect that there should be odd or jarring words in fantasy (or even real-life) languages from time to time, but when that oddness seems touch too many words, it sounds, IMO like gibberish.

Its just an issue of aesthetics and not an appreciation of a well-developed setting...which Kalamar is. In fact, I would say that it ranks up their with Harn in its internal consistancy. 


Wyrmshadows


----------



## Treebore (Jul 10, 2008)

Wyrmshadows said:


> Now, now....be fair.
> 
> I am perhaps the biggest, nit-picky, versimilitude nut on this board and I have to say that it isn't the foreign sound of the names that throws me, its the lack of aesthetic sensibilities that allow the words to trip easily off the tongue despite their non-english nature.
> 
> Wyrmshadows







How many languages have this?

"... aesthetic sensibilities that allow the words to trip easily off the tongue despite their non-english nature."

Russian doesn't. Chinese doesn't. Most, if not all, non English languages do not. Which is why I guess it works for me.

For those who don't want sucha strong "foreign" feel, and want an English setting, they could just replace such words with english words the DM and players can pronounce.

I like how it reinforces the fact that their are significant differences in culture, etc...


----------



## Cryptos (Jul 10, 2008)

You really have to pick and choose which region of Kalamar you're using carefully.  They're diverse enough to have different flavors.  (The naming conventions also differ from region to region for those having trouble.)  Find an area you like and consider it a campaign setting in its own right in a world of connected campaign settings.

I always liked the Reanaaria Bay area, and looking through the old 3e campaign setting book, I was surprised at how PoL-ish it is: city-states instead of broad kingdoms and empires, many stricken by poverty or their own unique problems, so different in forms of government that conquest seems like the only likely way toward unity, and constantly challenged by sea monsters in the bay, pirates and brigands along the coast, and giants in the mountains.  It's also one of the more cosmopolitan areas in terms of 'demihuman' integration.  While Kalamar itself is either at war with or subjugating dwarves, and Brandobia is at a stalemate with the elves as they encroach on the forests, the Reanaarese settlers learned how to farm and survive from the gnomes, in some cases have trade with the dwarves, and were taught advanced shipbuilding by high elf / eladrin-type explorers.  That one area is rich enough for many different campaigns.  I also find the vowels easier to stumble over than some of the other "languages."

You have to look at each area as a distinct area for campaigning instead of trying to absorb and adventure in the whole world at once.

I think that this is the biggest hurdle in trying to overcome the level of detail shock in KoK: thinking of it as a whole like the Forgotten Realms... that this whole place is where your adventurers will typically be roaming around during a single campaign.  Better to think of it as the entire world that a campaign setting is based on: Toril, the world of Forgotten Realms, also had Al-Qadim, Maztica, and Kara-Tur.  The world of Kalamar, Telene, also has Brandobia, Svimohz, Reanaaria, the Young Kingdoms, etc.

Imagine if Forgotten Realms had first appeared with all the geographical, historical, cultural, religious and city information for not just Faerun itself, but also the entire world: Kara-Tur, Maztica, Zakhara, and one of the other unspecified regions of that world.  That's what KoK basically is.  Svimohzia is an African analog.  Reanaaria is an Aegean Sea greek / turkish analog.  And so on.  That's KoK's biggest problem: they throw an entire planet's worth of information at you all at once, and don't always include the advice to look at one area.

It is perhaps unfortunately named.  While the name is consistent with the world's history, in the sense that the empire of Kalamar once dominated much of the known world like the Roman Empire did, it conveys a sense of required cohesion that doesn't suit gaming in that world.  Each region is much more distinct than those of many other settings.


----------



## NewJeffCT (Jul 11, 2008)

Mark Plemmons said:


> Different strokes for different folks.
> 
> To me, the great thing about the different languages in the Kingdoms of Kalamar setting is that, after you've used the setting for a bit, you and your players will be able to recognize most people and places simply by hearing or reading their names.
> 
> ...




In my current campaign set in Kalamar, we often joke about the names, because Brandobian names often seem vowel-challenged (Trefz or Vlondvr, two names from actual modules), while Reannaria is the opposite with extra vowels in their names. So, it's either that Brandobians need to buy vowels from Reannaria, or that the Reannarians stole them. But, it does help the observant gamer know that somebody is not from 'round here if they hear a different sounding naming.


----------



## thundershot (Jul 11, 2008)

I admit, I'm of the group of people that really doesn't like the Kalamar names. Yes, they're creative. But they wouldn't work with our group. Our group nicknames the crap out of NPC's.... Pijkkurzagh would become... Picklejuice or something. I remember a guy in Al Qadim named Abdo, and the group couldn't keep his name straight and renamed him Alpo. 




Chris


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## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Treebore said:


> How many languages have this?
> 
> "... aesthetic sensibilities that allow the words to trip easily off the tongue despite their non-english nature."
> 
> ...




Some people do syllables well. Consider Guild Wars, Warcraft, Starcraft, Pathfinder, even Greyhawk.

And then some people don't do syllables quite so well.


----------



## Barastrondo (Jul 11, 2008)

Treebore said:


> Using the words you did does the same thing seeing words that I have to guess at pronouncing does, it helps me feel like I am in a foreign land. That is the biggest thing that hits me and tells me I am not at home anymore. I don't know the language.




To temporarily play devil's advocate, though, a lot of players want to feel comfortable enough with a setting that they feel they're accurately portraying characters that are native to said setting. It's one thing to feel like you're in a foreign land; it's another to feel like your character is a foreigner in the city where he was born and raised. 

Not that this is a knock on Kalamar, mind, because it obviously has its audience. It's just one of the things that you have to make a choice about as a game designer — how much do you want something to be intuitive for the average gamer? This can apply to naming conventions, cultures, even little things like technology levels and physical laws. Players can feel out-of-touch playing natives in deeply transhumanist SF settings, in fantasy worlds with very alien cultures, all sorts of things. For some, that's absolutely a selling point; for others, it's not comfortably intuitive. Just one of those choices you make, and though it might not be for everyone, I doubt the creators of Kalamar are disappointed with the number of people who enjoy something non-intuitive for gaming.


----------



## Brennin Magalus (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> Yes, they transport me to the Land of Syllables.
> 
> Tolkien got away with it because he was a professional. That doesn't mean YOU do.




My elves speak like Australians. I figure watching Crocodile Dundee and the late Steve Irwin is more than sufficient to reproduce Australian idioms. Why, just the other day the party signaled their peaceful intentions in the elven forest by flashing the V sign in front of the elven queen, _Sheila_.


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> Some people do syllables well. Consider Guild Wars, Warcraft, Starcraft, Pathfinder, even Greyhawk.
> 
> And then some people don't do syllables quite so well.




And some people think that compared to English names, Kalamar ones are actually easy to pronounce, and well done.

It may be a shock to some, but not everyone here comes from the US or the UK, and may actually be used to non-English names - or used to use foreign names (like the aforementioned English) without translating them into their native language - since, you know, that would sound a bit silly in many cases.


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> And some people think that compared to English names, Kalamar ones are actually easy to pronounce, and well done.
> 
> It may be a shock to some, but not everyone here comes from the US or the UK, and may actually be used to non-English names - or used to use foreign names (like the aforementioned English) without translating them into their native language - since, you know, that would sound a bit silly in many cases.



Who said anything about English?


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> Who said anything about English?




I did, in the quoted text.


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> I did, in the quoted text.



And your point about English is relevant to what anyone else said, how?


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> And your point about English is relevant to what anyone else said, how?




To repeat it: For some, the dreaded syllables from KoK sound as strange or right as the English names touted as better.


----------



## WhatGravitas (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> ...or used to use foreign names (like the aforementioned English) without translating them into their native language - since, you know, that would sound a bit silly in many cases.



Even then, the names are usually put into a more compatible form that fits the language it is used in - and English is a special case, because it's so widespread, hence it's less often translated.

Plus, there's a creeping anglisation of German in your case! 

Cheers, LT.


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> To repeat it: For some, the dreaded syllables from KoK sound as strange or right as the English names touted as better.




To repeat. Some people do syllables well. Consider Guild Wars, Warcraft, Starcraft, Pathfinder, even Greyhawk.

Nobody said anything about English. Play some GW: Nightfall or GW: Factions if you don't know what I mean.


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> To repeat. Some people do syllables well. Consider Guild Wars, Warcraft, Starcraft, Pathfinder, even Greyhawk.
> 
> Nobody said anything about English. Play some GW: Nightfall or GW: Factions if you don't know what I mean.




Some people do syllables in a way hong likes. Some people do syllables in a way others like. That doesn't mean either does them well or not well.

And I said something about English, to stress the point that what is "dread syllables" to you sounds nice to others, and vice versa.

(I wonder if all those Elven names know how german people pronounce "ae" by default.)


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> Some people do syllables in a way hong likes. Some people do syllables in a way others like. That doesn't mean either does them well or not well.




Ah, this explains all those ppl complaining about the syllables in Guild Wars, Warcraft, Starcraft, Pathfinder, even Greyhawk.


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

Complaints about KoK names are about as valid as complaints about the naming conventions of 4E. I do remember some complaints about Greyhawk names. I never bothered with GW, but a lot of Fantasy names sound stupid to me - and some sound stupid once they are translated.

("Waterdeep" - "Tiefwasser")


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> Complaints about KoK names are about as valid as complaints about the naming conventions of 4E.



Yes. And...?


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> Yes. And...?




It means that once you leave the assumption behind that your own taste is relevant for the rest of the world, you get a bit more tolerant with regards of "syllables", rendering most complaints about "syllables" pointless.

Basically, you're complaining that exotic names sound exotic, and may be hard to pronounce. Something people outside the US and the UK already deal with daily when reading English texts, and which may actually be a feature for some people - especially since pronouncing those KoK words isn't an issue for most German speakers.


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> It means that once you leave the assumption behind that your own taste is relevant for the rest of the world, you get a bit more tolerant with regards of "syllables", rendering most complaints about "syllables" pointless.




So. Point me to all those ppl complaining about the syllables in Guild Wars, Warcraft, Starcraft, Pathfinder, even Greyhawk. 



> Basically, you're complaining that exotic names sound exotic, and may be hard to pronounce. Something people outside the US and the UK already deal with daily when reading English texts, and which may actually be a feature for some people - especially since pronouncing those KoK words isn't an issue for most German speakers.




The issue is not whether these names are hard to pronounce. These names sound stupid. This is because they look like random conglomerations of syllables, even if the rules governing those syllables happen to be the result of excessive thinkerising.


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> So. Point me to all those ppl complaining about the syllables in Guild Wars, Warcraft, Starcraft, Pathfinder, even Greyhawk.




Why? 




hong said:


> The issue is not whether these names are hard to pronounce. These names sound stupid. This is because they look like random conglomerations of syllables, even if the rules governing those syllables happen to be the result of excessive thinkerising.




"Sound stupid" is a very subjective term. You don't like the names, others like them. And by now everyone knows you dislike the names.

That doesn't even remotedly make your claim that they are stupid true.


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> Why?




To defend against the thesis that although taste may be a subjective thing and there is no universally-agreed scale by which to measure the acceptability or otherwise of a naming scheme, some collections of syllables can indeed be stupider than others.



> "Sound stupid" is a very subjective term. You don't like the names, others like them. And by now everyone knows you dislike the names.
> 
> That doesn't even remotedly make your claim that they are stupid true.




If enough people think they sound stupid, then they are.


----------



## Heselbine (Jul 11, 2008)

S'mon said:


> *This*
> 
> _OMG that's my first ever *This*!_
> 
> Yeah, I bought 3e Kingdoms of Kalamar, but the moment I saw _Principality of Pekal_, I knew Kalamar and me were not going to be friends. The names are just appalling. If I were them I'd reissue the setting with all the names 'translated into English' - instead of Tumufido and Naka'akido, for gods' sakes give me the White Bone Hills and the Land of Two Lakes. Or anything, anything but those endless collections of silly syllables.




Just goes to show that people are different. The language thing is one of the things I love most about Kalamar - because someone's thought through a complete picture of the different languages. Character names mean something and have a context, so no more Joe the Fighter. Sure, some of them are a bit unpronounceable, but if you get the point of having an overall scheme it's all worth it.

How many campaigns have you played in where the names make ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE whatsoever? Sorry, but that really bugs me and destroys the reality.


----------



## WhatGravitas (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> ...especially since pronouncing those KoK words isn't an issue for most German speakers.



The question isn't being pronouncable, but whether they're easy to remember or not. Plus, even if they sound fine for a German, what does it tell us? Bad localisation?

Cheers, LT.


----------



## Heselbine (Jul 11, 2008)

This is all making me think about running 4e Kalamar again - but I'm not buying a PDF. Are Kenzer ever going to produce physical Kalamar products again? Or is it simply not commercially viable?


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> If enough people think they sound stupid, then they are.




If enough people think 2+2 equals 5, it still doesn't.


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> If enough people think 2+2 equals 5, it still doesn't.




This is where the

taste may be a subjective thing and there is no universally-agreed scale by which to measure the acceptability or otherwise of a naming scheme​
bit comes in.


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> This is where the
> 
> taste may be a subjective thing and there is no universally-agreed scale by which to measure the acceptability or otherwise of a naming scheme​
> bit comes in.




So, why contradict yourself then in your next line, where you state such a measure?


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> So, why contradict yourself then in your next line, where you state such a measure?



Because while taste may be a subjective thing and there is no universally-agreed scale by which to measure the acceptability or otherwise of a naming scheme, this does not rule out meaningful discussion of preferences, the ability to rank said preferences, or the ability to make decisions on the basis of said rankings.

Trust me, I'm a statistician.


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> Because while taste may be a subjective thing and there is no universally-agreed scale by which to measure the acceptability or otherwise of a naming scheme, this does not rule out meaningful discussion of preferences, the ability to rank said preferences, or the ability to make decisions on the basis of said rankings.
> 
> Trust me, I'm a statistician.




Even if statistics would say that 90% of the population believe the earth is flat, it doesn't actually make the earth flat.


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> Even if statistics would say that 90% of the population believe the earth is flat, it doesn't actually make the earth flat.



This is where the

taste may be a subjective thing and there is no universally-agreed scale by which to measure the acceptability or otherwise of a naming scheme​
bit comes in.


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> This is where the
> 
> taste may be a subjective thing and there is no universally-agreed scale by which to measure the acceptability or otherwise of a naming scheme​
> bit comes in.




Why then claim that if enough people believe something sounds stupid it would be stupid? That's not a matter of decision, that's a flat statement of fact.


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> Why then claim that if enough people believe something sounds stupid it would be stupid? That's not a matter of decision, that's a flat statement of fact.



Because subjective != objective.

Is this a trick question?


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> Because subjective != objective.
> 
> Is this a trick question?




A judgement ("this sounds stupid to me") is subjective. A statement of fact ("this is stupid") is objective. And you claimed that if enough people thought something sounded stupid, it was stupid.


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> A judgement ("this sounds stupid to me") is subjective. A statement of fact ("this is stupid") is objective. And you claimed that if enough people thought something sounded stupid, it was stupid.



Perhaps more syllables are in order. If enough people think something is stupid, then it is reasonable to act as if that thing is indeed stupid, regardless of the underlying epistemological issues regarding the validity or otherwise of subjective preference rankings.

Is this clear?


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> Perhaps more syllables are in order. If enough people think something is stupid, then it is reasonable to act as if that thing is indeed stupid, regardless of the underlying epistemological issues regarding the validity or otherwise of subjective preference rankings.
> 
> Is this clear?




Yes. It certainly is a very different statement than the one before. And of course it is highly situational.

If you want to sell something to said people, it is advisable to cater to their taste. If you do not want to sell something to them, but to others who do not share their taste, it's not advisable to cater to their taste.

And I certainly won't stop roleplaying just because there are lots of people who consider it dorky, stupid, or dangerous to my immortal soul.


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> Yes. It certainly is a very different statement than the one before. And of course it is highly situational.
> 
> If you want to sell something to said people, it is advisable to cater to their taste. If you do not want to sell something to them, but to others who do not share their taste, it's not advisable to cater to their taste.




IOW, if enough people think something is stupid, then it's stupid.



> And I certainly won't stop roleplaying just because there are lots of people who consider it dorky, stupid, or dangerous to my immortal soul.




I am intrigued by your insightful posts and wish to subscribe to your blog.


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> IOW, if enough people think something is stupid, then it's stupid.




Not at all. If enough people think wearing red clothes will make you thinner, selling such clothes is a good idea. It doesn't, however, mean that it actually makes you thin.

A not so fine difference.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> Not at all. If enough people think wearing red clothes will make you thinner, selling such clothes is a good idea. It doesn't, however, mean that it actually makes you thin.
> 
> A not so fine difference.




In case of clothes, though, appearing as something might be all that is required. If you appear to most people as thin when wearing red (and thin is in), it might be a good idea to wear read, too. (If you're doing it for health reason it's less useful)

If the names in a setting sound stupid to many people, it will "hurt" their game experience. It doesn't matter if, according to some objective measure, it's okay. Feeling can be very important for role-playing games.


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> Not at all. If enough people think wearing red clothes will make you thinner, selling such clothes is a good idea.




Exactly.



> It doesn't, however, mean that it actually makes you thin.




Hint: Kalamar isn't real.



> A not so fine difference.




Those elves you're pretending to be? They're not real either.


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> In case of clothes, though, appearing as something might be all that is required. If you appear to most people as thin when wearing red (and thin is in), it might be a good idea to wear read, too. (If you're doing it for health reason it's less useful)
> 
> If the names in a setting sound stupid to many people, it will "hurt" their game experience. It doesn't matter if, according to some objective measure, it's okay. Feeling can be very important for role-playing games.




Of course. But as with music, you don't have to please everyone, you jsut have to please enough people. And often, trying to please everyone ends up in a product that pleases no one.

Watering down Kalamar by deviating from its core concept of an internally logical and "organic" world  - geography, culture, names, history, religion - might do far more harm than good.


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> Watering down Kalamar by deviating from its core concept of an internally logical and "organic" world  - geography, culture, names, history, religion - might do far more harm than good.




Which has nothing to do with syllables.


----------



## amethal (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> Which has nothing to do with syllables.



Thank goodness for that.


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> Watering down Kalamar by deviating from its core concept of an internally logical and "organic" world  - geography, culture, names, history, religion - might do far more harm than good.



Harm?  How so?  What "harm" does it do to change the names to something that my players are comfortable with?


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> Hint: Kalamar isn't real.
> 
> Those elves you're pretending to be? They're not real either.




Of course not. But the product we are talking about is real. And we - at least I am - talking about a product, and whether a product becomes stupid by not pleasing hong.



hong said:


> Which has nothing to do with syllables.




Changing the names from "this is the culture, and names follow those rules" to "make it sound better for hong" is deviating from the concept.


----------



## gonesailing (Jul 11, 2008)

Treebore said:


> How many languages have this?
> 
> "... aesthetic sensibilities that allow the words to trip easily off the tongue despite their non-english nature."
> 
> ...



*****Disclaimer****
I have not read Kalamar, nor do I have a horse in this race
*****End Disclaimer****


How many languages do you speak?  I personally am fluent only in English, but speak/understand a smattering of Russian, Greek, Spanish, and Italian.  Additionally, Russian is the second language in my family.  And don't let my wife hear you talking about Russian like that.  
Russian does indeed have an aesthetic feel that allows those who speak the language to let the language flow from them.  Too many Poets/Bards in Russia use their language too well to make that statement.
There _are_ some combinations of consonants that are just darn difficult for me (an English speaker) to say, but they are memorable and sound "right".  Zdrastvuete (sp?) is my prime example. 
Greek (which you don't call out) is the same (but with less tongue-tying).  Anyway, once you know the Alphabet, the words are dead easy to sound out.

My wife tells me that while Japanese may sound a little funny sometimes.  The way that words are constructed makes the language flow just fine.


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> Of course not. But the product we are talking about is real. And we - at least I am - talking about a product, and whether a product becomes stupid by not pleasing hong.




If enough people think it's stupid, then it's stupid.



> Changing the names from "this is the culture, and names follow those rules" to "make it sound better for hong" is deviating from the concept.




Nonsense. There are rules that produce good syllables, and there are rules that produce stupid syllables.


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

Hobo said:


> Harm?  How so?  What "harm" does it do to change the names to something that my players are comfortable with?




It may turn other people off from it, just like adding a volcano and a desert in a place where it shouldn't be.

No one says you can't change the names on your own, for your group - but if you're marketing a product like KoK as a world with an inherent logic and systematic build, changing aspects of it to "make it sound cooler" might change the product for the worse, and lose you your market.


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> If enough people think it's stupid, then it's stupid.




That doesn't become true no matter how often you say it. Life is not a roleplaying game, where your imagination changes the game reality.



hong said:


> Nonsense. There are rules that produce good syllables, and there are rules that produce stupid syllables.




Stupid _in your opinion_. I am sure you'll consider some of my family's names stupid too, since they do not conform to your taste. But that doesn't mean we should change them.


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> That doesn't become true no matter how often you say it. Life is not a roleplaying game, where your imagination changes the game reality.




Perhaps more syllables are in order. If enough people think something is stupid, then it is reasonable to act as if that thing is indeed stupid, regardless of the underlying epistemological issues regarding the validity or otherwise of subjective preference rankings. Hence one can say that, for all practical purposes, if enough people think it's stupid, then it's stupid.

Is this clear? 




> Stupid _in your opinion_. I am sure you'll consider some of my family's names stupid too, since they do not conform to your taste. But that doesn't mean we should change them.




I was not aware that many ppl considered your family name stupid, but I am willing to be convinced otherwise.


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> Perhaps more syllables are in order. If enough people think something is stupid, then it is reasonable to act as if that thing is indeed stupid, regardless of the underlying epistemological issues regarding the validity or otherwise of subjective preference rankings. Hence one can say that, for all practical purposes, if enough people think it's stupid, then it's stupid.
> 
> Is this clear?




I think you missed my earlier reply: It is only reasonable to act as if said thing is indeed stupid if you actually want something from those people, like selling them a product.

If you want to sell a song of a given style to people who like that style, it would not be reasonable to consider it a stupid song just beacause some people consider it stupid. It's called "know your target audience".
And if there are already other songs who fit the taste of those people better, trying to change your song into something similar, but not as fitting, would be downright stupid - it would turn off your original target audience, and not gain you many new customers, since your product still wouldn't fit their taste very well.

Or in other words: KoK appeals to their target audience exactly because they have a streamlined, inherently logical product with names that do sound like they could have formed "naturally" in those regions. Changning those names to "whatever sounds kewl" might turn the current buyers off, and given the other areas of the setting, still not bring in more of the "I want kewl names" crowd.

Is this clear now? We can go into ice cream and pizza examples, if needed, to avoid the political examples.




hong said:


> I was not aware that many ppl considered your family name stupid, but I am willing to be convinced otherwise.




Since you have issues with KoK names, I think you have issues with other "strange" names as well. I am willing to be convinced otherwise, but your insistance that some names are stupid just for not sounding right to you makes me doubt the success of this.


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> I think you missed my earlier reply: It is only reasonable to act as if said thing is indeed stupid if you actually want something from those people, like selling them a product.




Your critique of the foundations of a modern capitalist service economy is also intriguing, and I wish to extend my subscription to your blog.



> If you want to sell a song of a given style to people who like that style, it would not be reasonable to consider it a stupid song just beacause some people consider it stupid. It's called "know your target audience".




This is where the

There are rules that produce good syllables, and there are rules that produce stupid syllables.​
bit comes in.



> Is this clear now? We can go into ice cream and pizza examples, if needed, to avoid the political examples.




In MY day, generic food metaphors used ice cream and peanut butter, and we LIKED it.




> Since you have issues with KoK names, I think you have issues with other "strange" names as well. I am willing to be convinced otherwise, but your insistance that some names are stupid just for not sounding right to you makes me doubt the success of this.




If enough ppl think your name sounds stupid, then it is stupid. Whether I personally think it's stupid has nothing to do with it. Of course, your name may not in fact sound stupid to enough ppl to qualify as such, but clearly such a question can only be answered by a poll.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> If enough people think they sound stupid, then they are.




By corollary, if enough people think hong's a pretentious threadcrapper, then he is.


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Hey! Who's pretentious?


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> This is where the
> 
> There are rules that produce good syllables, and there are rules that produce stupid syllables.​
> bit comes in.




This is where the "just because you say it often doesn't make it true" bit goes in.

Please, save energy, time and the planet, and copy/paste my bit right after your bit next time you repeat it, thanks!


----------



## redcard (Jul 11, 2008)

So, in short, the worst thing it seems people can find about Kalamar is that it's names are weird?

Sounds like a damn good setting then.


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> This is where the "just because you say it often doesn't make it true" bit goes in.




To be precise, by choosing rules that make for good syllables, you can reduce the number of people who think the syllables are stupid to below the threshold at which they become stupid. This is because the underlying attraction of the Kalamar naming scheme, as far as can be told by those who have posted here, is that it follows a consistent underlying set of rules. The outcome of those rules is another thing entirely, and hence there can be good rules (those which produce results that are not stupid sounding) and not-so-good rules (those which produce results that are stupid sounding).

Is this clear?



> Please, save energy, time and the planet, and copy/paste my bit right after your bit next time you repeat it, thanks!




If you insist.


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

redcard said:


> So, in short, the worst thing it seems people can find about Kalamar is that it's names are weird?
> 
> Sounds like a damn good setting then.




Indeed.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> To be precise, by choosing rules that make for good syllables, you can reduce the number of people who think the syllables are stupid to below the threshold at which they become stupid. This is because the underlying attraction of the Kalamar naming scheme, as far as can be told by those who have posted here, is that it follows a consistent underlying set of rules. The outcome of those rules is another thing entirely, and hence there can be good rules (those which produce results that are not stupid sounding) and not-so-good rules (those which produce results that are stupid sounding).




Somebody is thinking too hard about fantasy.


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> To be precise, by choosing rules that make for good syllables, you can reduce the number of people who think the syllables are stupid to below the threshold at which they become stupid. This is because the underlying attraction of the Kalamar naming scheme, as far as can be told by those who have posted here, is that it follows a consistent underlying set of rules. The outcome of those rules is another thing entirely, and hence there can be good rules (those which produce results that are not stupid sounding) and not-so-good rules (those which produce results that are stupid sounding).
> 
> Is this clear?




Not everyone thinks the names are stupid. That is due to different languages, different expectations, more tolerance for foreign cultures, and less ego. And no matter how often you say it: Something isn't become stupid just because you say so.


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Wulf Ratbane said:


> Somebody is thinking too hard about fantasy.



Of course, I was perfectly willing to leave it at "if enough people think it's stupid, then it's stupid".


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> Not everyone thinks the names are stupid. That is due to different languages, different expectations, more tolerance for foreign cultures, and less ego.




So. Point me to all those ppl complaining about the syllables in Guild Wars, Warcraft, Starcraft, Pathfinder, even Greyhawk.



> And no matter how often you say it: Something isn't become stupid just because you say so.




Hint: something indeed doesn't become stupid just because I say so.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> Of course, I was perfectly willing to leave it at "if enough people think it's stupid, then it's stupid".




Since I am pretty sure that's also where you came down on Golden Wyvern Adept, I'm willing to take you at your word on that.


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Wulf Ratbane said:


> Since I am pretty sure that's also where you came down on Golden Wyvern Adept, I'm willing to take you at your word on that.



Of course, that's also where I came down on Wyvern Tail Cut Dragon Tail Strike.


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> To be precise, by choosing rules that make for good syllables, you can reduce the number of people who think the syllables are stupid to below the threshold at which they become stupid. This is because the underlying attraction of the Kalamar naming scheme, as far as can be told by those who have posted here, is that it follows a consistent underlying set of rules. The outcome of those rules is another thing entirely, and hence there can be good rules (those which produce results that are not stupid sounding) and not-so-good rules (those which produce results that are stupid sounding).
> 
> Is this clear?



*sigh*  It was clear three pages ago.  Is there some reason you insist and making sure Fenes understands this concept or any of the other concepts you've posted in regards to naming conventions with Kalamar?  Clearly he's not going to, so you're just wasting your time.


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> So. Point me to all those ppl complaining about the syllables in Guild Wars, Warcraft, Starcraft, Pathfinder, even Greyhawk.




What for? 



hong said:


> Hint: something indeed doesn't become stupid just because I say so.




Why claim it then by stating something is stupid, and not add "in my opinion"?


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

Hobo said:


> *sigh*  It was clear three pages ago.  Is there some reason you insist and making sure Fenes understands this concept or any of the other concepts you've posted in regards to naming conventions with Kalamar?  Clearly he's not going to, so you're just wasting your time.




I understand him perfectly fine. I do disagree with his opinion that the results of said naming rules are stupid.


----------



## hong (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> What for?
> 
> To defend against the thesis that although taste may be a subjective thing and there is no universally-agreed scale by which to measure the acceptability or otherwise of a naming scheme, some collections of syllables can indeed be stupider than others.
> 
> ...


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> Of course, that's also where I came down on Wyvern Tail Cut Dragon Tail Strike.




Curiously enough, Dragon's Tail Cut was a case of a designer _not thinking hard enough_ about fantasy.


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> To defend against the thesis that although taste may be a subjective thing and there is no universally-agreed scale by which to measure the acceptability or otherwise of a naming scheme, some collections of syllables can indeed be stupider than others.
> 
> As might have been said before.




And was answered before. I disagree. And so does anyone who has a hobby that the majority of the people not into the hobby considers stupid.



hong said:


> It should be self-evident that a statement that something is/isn't stupid is a statement of subjective opinion, is it not?




No. There is a big difference between stating something as a fact and stating something as an opinion.


----------



## Amphimir Míriel (Jul 11, 2008)

Harrumph! Going back into topic...



Mourn said:


> I'm not interested in a Palladium board war. I was just pointing out that Palladium sued WotC for referencing their system and providing a little conversion material, and K&Co is putting D&D's name on the cover of their book and using game mechanics. If Palladium was able to maintain a suit for a long enough period of time to nearly ruin WotC, then WotC could probably do the same to K&CO much more easily. I'm just suggesting that they be careful, because the 800-lb. gorilla doesn't necessarily have to win a court case in order to achieve their objective.




This puts WotC in a very difficult position. It can indeed sue Kenzer and drag the lawsuit long enough to ruin them... However this would cause a big backlash against WotC (can you say "Streisand Effect"?)


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> I understand him perfectly fine. I do disagree with his opinion that the results of said naming rules are stupid.



You seem to.  And then you make a claim like "just because you say something's stupid doesn't make it so" when hong's explained about fourteen times that he's actually making no such claim.

This would seem to be pretty good evidence that you *don't* in fact understand a single word of what he's saying.

Look, I know as well as the next guy that hong amuses himself by dodging actual discussion with pedantry, but in this case he's got a point.

He thinks the names are stupid (although that's not really important.)  He thinks that enough people think the names are stupid that it's an issue for Kalamar overall (that is important, because "in theory" Kalamar exists to sell copies of itself.)  He thinks that you could have arranged naming conventions such that you are just as "internally and linguistically consistent" without giving results that turn off broad swaths of potential customers.

Really; it's not hard to follow.  But based on your replies, you're missing the entire point over and over again.


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

I already answered that several times: I do not think that those who think the names are stupid and want more streamlined names are numbering enough to compensate for those who do not want more streamlined names.

Basically, I do not agree with the assumption that the names are stupid, nor with the opinion that more people hate them than like them.

Is that clear now?


----------



## Fenes (Jul 11, 2008)

[Lawyer]
If someone says "this is stupid", then he makes the claim that this is a fact. If there is no more evidence forthcoming to support this statement, then it means indeed "this is stupid cause I say so". And if the "evidence" is "I say lots of people think like I do, and therefore it's true" then that doesn't change the claim at all from "It's true cause I say so".

We do not have any poll, any representative sample, nothing that would pass as evidence. So, it is indeed a simple "it's stupid cause I say so" argument.
[/lawyer]


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> I already answered that several times: I do not think that those who think the names are stupid and want more streamlined names are numbering enough to compensate for those who do not want more streamlined names.
> 
> Basically, I do not agree with the assumption that the names are stupid, nor with the opinion that more people hate them than like them.
> 
> Is that clear now?



It always was clear, but rather than saying, "OK, this is what you think and this is what I think" you continually make posts that indicate that you *don't actually even understand what he's saying* and then you go off on another round of repeating yourselves over and over again.

As someone who's interested in the topic, but bored to tears with your pedantic tangent, it's getting *really* old already.  If you understand his point and you've made yours, then just drop it already.  Or fork it and have another discussion about naming conventions or something.


----------



## GeorgeFields (Jul 11, 2008)

Hobo said:


> As someone who's interested in the topic, but bored to tears with your pedantic tangent, it's getting *really* old already.  If you understand his point and you've made yours, then just drop it already.  Or fork it and have another discussion about naming conventions or something.




That's the most intelligent thing said in the previous few pages.


----------



## The Little Raven (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> ("Waterdeep" - "Tiefwasser")




Using a Forgotten Realms city's syllables doesn't help support a complaint about not liking Greyhawk syllables.


----------



## Mark Plemmons (Jul 11, 2008)

Amphimir Míriel said:


> Harrumph! Going back into topic...




Please?  




Amphimir Míriel said:


> This puts WotC in a very difficult position. It can indeed sue Kenzer and drag the lawsuit long enough to ruin them... However this would cause a big backlash against WotC (can you say "Streisand Effect"?)




I don't believe it puts WotC in any position whatsoever, personally.  It certainly shouldn't surprise anyone who's been at WotC for a while.  We've been publishing D&D-compatible material for nearly 15 years now, and were even doing so (Goods and Gear, for example) at the same time we were publishing official material with the D&D logo.

We never used the OGL, and don't see any more reason to use the GSL, either.  We'd like to keep supporting both v3.5 and 4E.  

EDIT: Heck, I just added a brand new 101-page v3.5-compatible PDF (Zoa: Citadel of the Bay to our web store.


----------



## Voadam (Jul 11, 2008)

hong said:


> So. Point me to all those ppl complaining about the syllables in Guild Wars, Warcraft, Starcraft, Pathfinder, even Greyhawk.




There's a country named Geoff? 

An archmage named Bigby. And one named Rigby. And one named Digby. And one named . . .


----------



## theemrys (Jul 11, 2008)

Fenes said:


> If enough people think 2+2 equals 5, it still doesn't.




Ahhh... but it does... for very large values of 2...


----------



## WizarDru (Jul 11, 2008)

Voadam said:


> There's a country named Geoff?
> 
> An archmage named Bigby. And one named Rigby. And one named Digby. And one named . . .




That's not really a complaint about excess syllables, just a style choice.  And it actually kind of shows why folks don't complain about Greyhawk in the same way.  The people of Geoff strongly resemble the Welsh, but the chosen place names are much easier on the players than some Welsh names.

Given that the real world has places like 'Gary, Indiana', 'Pierre, South Dakota' (a state capital, I might add) and 'Jim Thorpe, PA' (named for the famous athelete)....well, I'm hard pressed to see a name like the Grand Duchy of Geoff as unrealistic or even silly.

Heck, I live near places like Bala Cynwyd, Bird-in-Hand, Limerick, Intercourse and Harrisburg.  About two hours from here are towns like Strong, Frackville and Ashland (can you say 'coal country'?).


----------



## Daniel D. Fox (Jul 11, 2008)

A richly-developed "real fantasy" world, but all of their products read very poorly. They read a lot like a textbook.


----------



## Voadam (Jul 11, 2008)

WizarDru said:


> That's not really a complaint about excess syllables, just a style choice.  And it actually kind of shows why folks don't complain about Greyhawk in the same way.  The people of Geoff strongly resemble the Welsh, but the chosen place names are much easier on the players than some Welsh names.
> 
> Given that the real world has places like 'Gary, Indiana', 'Pierre, South Dakota' (a state capital, I might add) and 'Jim Thorpe, PA' (named for the famous athelete)....well, I'm hard pressed to see a name like the Grand Duchy of Geoff as unrealistic or even silly.
> 
> Heck, I live near places like Bala Cynwyd, Bird-in-Hand, Limerick, Intercourse and Harrisburg.  About two hours from here are towns like Strong, Frackville and Ashland (can you say 'coal country'?).




Correct, it was not a complaint about excess syllables, it was a complaint about style choice.

Hong's complaint though, I thought, was not that Kalamar has unrealistic sounding foreign fantasy place and people names. The complaint was that the names were offputting.

I had no problem when I thought Geoff was pronounced "Jee off". When I heard it was pronounced "Jeff" it did give me a dissonance jarring feel for it. Knowing real life places like Maryland and Virginia with Prince Geroge's county and Prince William county does not change the dissonance of the Grand Duchy of Geoff in Oerik.

Similarly, some find the greyhawk naming convention of original player name anagrams or taking a name and repeating it ad nauseum with just one letter different to be offputting in a campaign setting.

Also the fact that Intercourse is a real name of a place in the real world does not make it any less silly IMO.


----------



## Jolly_Blackburn (Jul 11, 2008)

wait a minute. Is the message here that gamers have different tastes when it comes to campaign settings? Hence -- that's why there's so many of 'em?


----------



## GeorgeFields (Jul 11, 2008)

Voadam said:


> There's a country named Geoff?




What have you got against GeoFF.......ields...  



Jolly_Blackburn said:


> wait a minute. Is the message here that gamers have different tastes when it comes to campaign settings? Hence -- that's why there's so many of 'em?




INCONCEIVABLE!!


----------



## thundershot (Jul 11, 2008)

Mark Plemmons said:


> Please?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





*chants while Mark and Jolly are around*


4E Goods & Gear.... 4E Goods & Gear... 4E Goods & Gear....




Chris


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## justanobody (Jul 12, 2008)

cildarith said:


> Which part of Post #67 in this thread is unclear to you?




Wow! I was told this forum was civil.


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## thundershot (Jul 12, 2008)

justanobody said:


> Wow! I was told this forum was civil.





It is civil, but man.... Ya gotta read the threads before asking questions that may or may not have already been answered a few times in said thread.



Welcome, by the way!


Chris


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## justanobody (Jul 12, 2008)

cildarith said:


> Which part of Post #67 in this thread is unclear to you?






thundershot said:


> It is civil, but man.... Ya gotta read the threads before asking questions that may or may not have already been answered a few times in said thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks. Sorry I do not know any business by forum names so don't know a thing of what may or may not be official or otherwise just a random thought.

Is there somewhere that usernames are listed for actual officials of representative companies?

Like a list of industry professionals here that gives the username of them so you can refer back to it in the heat of reading a thread through?


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## hectorse (Jul 12, 2008)

I think those names are stupid.

Being consistent with itself does not mean the setting has to have so much lack of vocals!

It's crazy!

The same thing the guy said about X place sounding different because they decided to put less vocals could have been done with other phonetic metaphors, without alienating people.

I say this because I KNOW how it feels in a constant basis. We play in spanish. Almost all roleplay literature is in English.

I do my share of hard work translating names to spanish (my first language): Fallcrest, Rivenfall, Waterdeep, Tardrum, Teiradrion. I know they work in English but not in spanish. If everything we did was in English it would work, but changing between them sometimes doesn't. So here come the Crestaverde, Rio Largo, Honda el Agua, Tarkon, Tercanon, etc. 

The english language is very high. Latin languages have more graves in them.

Sometimes they sound stupid but if you think about Buenos Aires, Aguascalientes, Colorado... real names exist like that.

The point I am trying to make is... I have to do all of this because the roleplaying language is English. English speakers SHOULDN'T go what I go through. It's kind of obtuse if you ask me.

(I know how to speak spanish, english, japanese and russian...)


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## Fenes (Jul 12, 2008)

We play in German (well, a dialect of it) but we don't translate the names. It would feel jarring for me to use german names for a not-german fantasy culture. Same as in a modern game, we'd not translate Los Angeles or Buenos Aires.

Some names - especially african or asian ones - may be hard to pronounce or hard to remember, but that generally doesn't come up often. Once the characters are in a town, we seldom mention the town's name in conversation. Or its neighbour town. So, the complaint also feels a bit academical.

Kenzer delivers a campaign setting that doesn't feel like all areas of it were the same, just using different looks.

Now, if there was a _game term_ that was hard to pronounce, or to remember, or simply too long, and it was something one would use every combat, that would be different. "Roll Kampfrundenreihenfolgetest" instead of "Roll Ini" would seriously grate.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Jul 12, 2008)

justanobody said:


> Is there somewhere that usernames are listed for actual officials of representative companies?




What you are asking for is not unreasonable. To my knowledge, nothing like this exists.

However, this:



Mark Plemmons said:


> *Our* '2nd party' status ended last November or so, when *our license* agreement ended.  *We*'re not using their logos or copying any of their material, like *we* could before.  Likewise, *we*'re not using the GSL.




... has contextual clues that you should pick up on.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 12, 2008)

WizarDru said:


> That's not really a complaint about excess syllables, just a style choice.  And it actually kind of shows why folks don't complain about Greyhawk in the same way.  The people of Geoff strongly resemble the Welsh, but the chosen place names are much easier on the players than some Welsh names.
> 
> Given that the real world has places like 'Gary, Indiana', 'Pierre, South Dakota' (a state capital, I might add) and 'Jim Thorpe, PA' (named for the famous athelete)....well, I'm hard pressed to see a name like the Grand Duchy of Geoff as unrealistic or even silly.
> 
> Heck, I live near places like Bala Cynwyd, Bird-in-Hand, Limerick, Intercourse and Harrisburg.  About two hours from here are towns like Strong, Frackville and Ashland (can you say 'coal country'?).




There is a city in Germany that's called "Darmstadt". Which means ~"Bowel City". And I am not sure Schweinfurt ("Pigforth") is so much better. 

But I think Frackville is hilarious, at least since Battlestar Galactica.


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## thundershot (Jul 12, 2008)

justanobody said:


> Thanks. Sorry I do not know any business by forum names so don't know a thing of what may or may not be official or otherwise just a random thought.
> 
> Is there somewhere that usernames are listed for actual officials of representative companies?
> 
> Like a list of industry professionals here that gives the username of them so you can refer back to it in the heat of reading a thread through?




Not really, but I think 90% of the professionals on this board put their company info in their signatures. That's the easiest way to tell.



Chris


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## Jack99 (Jul 12, 2008)

Amphimir Míriel said:


> Harrumph! Going back into topic...
> 
> 
> 
> This puts WotC in a very difficult position. It can indeed sue Kenzer and drag the lawsuit long enough to ruin them... However this would cause a big backlash against WotC (can you say "Streisand Effect"?)



I do not see the relation between the Streisand Effect and Wotc suing Kenzer.  

I also think you seriously overestimate how many gamers (even on ENworld) gives a rat's butt about WoTC suing and/or ruining some third party publisher.


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## Amphimir Míriel (Jul 12, 2008)

hectorse said:


> I do my share of hard work translating names to spanish (my first language): Fallcrest, Rivenfall, Waterdeep, Tardrum, Teiradrion. I know they work in English but not in spanish. If everything we did was in English it would work, but changing between them sometimes doesn't. So here come the Crestaverde, Rio Largo, Honda el Agua, Tarkon, Tercanon, etc.
> 
> The english language is very high. Latin languages have more graves in them.
> 
> ...




Gracias por tu comentario compa!

I also find that transliterating names into Spanish (our first language here) helps everybody immerse themselves into the story.

I don't do literal translations, though... instead I do approximations of the place/character/etc. name into Spanish equivalents

For example, In my game, "Lord Armos Kamroth of Fallcrest" became "Don Armos Camrod, Señor de Salto del Agua" and the Bloodreaver Goblin Clan of KotS became  "La banda de los Chupasangre"


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## NewJeffCT (Jul 12, 2008)

Mark Plemmons said:


> EDIT: Heck, I just added a brand new 101-page v3.5-compatible PDF (Zoa: Citadel of the Bay to our web store.




woo-hoo - thanks for the book on Zoa!


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## GeorgeFields (Jul 12, 2008)

I nabbed the pdf last night. Good stuff. The atlas section is beautiful. It will be great to be able to print out a page and actually write on the map without the worry of damaging it and not having a replacement.


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## Mark Plemmons (Jul 14, 2008)

NewJeffCT said:


> woo-hoo - thanks for the book on Zoa!




No problem!


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## mxyzplk (Jul 15, 2008)

My two cents.

Cent 1 - I also don't really like the names in Kalamar.  I generally refer to "Kingdoms of Kalamar" as "Kingdoms of Konsonants" based on the previews I saw in Knights of the Dinner Table.  

Cent 2 - But it's awesome that they're giving Wizards a well-deserved pimp slap with this.  I hope Hasbro does sue, get defeated, and all the other small game publishers feel safe in exerting their legal rights in the future, not being subdued by the FUD Wizards puts out.   Though I'm not a Kalamar fan I went out to buy Aces & Eights immediately to support such a gutsy move.


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## Fifth Element (Jul 15, 2008)

thundershot said:


> Not really, but I think 90% of the professionals on this board put their company info in their signatures.



And many of the hack amateurs as well!


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## Fifth Element (Jul 15, 2008)

mxyzplk said:


> Cent 2 - But it's awesome that they're giving Wizards a well-deserved pimp slap with this.



I think the perception that they're "sticking it to the man" is rather missing the point.


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## amethal (Jul 15, 2008)

WizarDru said:


> The people of Geoff strongly resemble the Welsh, but the chosen place names are much easier on the players than some Welsh names..



What's hard about Llanelli, Abertawe, Aberystwyth, Caerfyrddin and the like ?

Actually, badly done fake-Welsh names really annoy me. That placename in the Moonshaes (Caer Kennet?) winds me up every time I see it. 

I'd much rather people steered clear of using Welsh-like names.


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## Mark Plemmons (Jul 15, 2008)

mxyzplk said:


> My two cents.
> 
> Cent 1 - I also don't really like the names in Kalamar.  I generally refer to "Kingdoms of Kalamar" as "Kingdoms of Konsonants" based on the previews I saw in Knights of the Dinner Table.




Actually, in Reanaaria Bay and the elven cities it's usually referred to as "The Vast Empire of Vowels."


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## GeorgeFields (Jul 15, 2008)

Fifth Element said:


> I think the perception that they're "sticking it to the man" is rather missing the point.




Exactly. As Dave said on the Kenzer boards...



David_S_Kenzer said:


> Also, folks misunderstand this move.  This is not a heroic gesture or a jab at WoTC.  We're just some guys with some kewl IP sittin around that would be better served making revenue.  If anything, having a top-notch campaign setting converted to DD4 can only help Wizards sell more DD4 books.
> 
> If they feel somehow slighted because we didn't follow a license that we've never needed before, well I can't help how they feel.  but somehow I doubt they feel slighted.  They're pros after all.


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## JRRNeiklot (Jul 15, 2008)

Fenes said:


> If enough people think 2+2 equals 5, it still doesn't.




For all practical purposes it does.  Suppose your math teacher thinks 2+2=5.  You'll fail every test.  Suppose every cashier in every store thinks it does?    Your two Two dollar burritos will cost you 5 bucks.  Or if every computer read 2+2 as equal to 5.  

Even if you are right, it won't matter.  2+2 has suddenly BECOME 5.  It can't be 4 anyway: http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/mathematics_to_retire


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## Fenes (Jul 15, 2008)

JRRNeiklot said:


> For all practical purposes it does.  Suppose your math teacher thinks 2+2=5.  You'll fail every test.  Suppose every cashier in every store thinks it does?    Your two Two dollar burritos will cost you 5 bucks.  Or if every computer read 2+2 as equal to 5.
> 
> Even if you are right, it won't matter.  2+2 has suddenly BECOME 5.  It can't be 4 anyway: http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/mathematics_to_retire




Then a lot of planes and other technology will spectaculary fail.

Belief won't make reality. Even if everyone on earth would think 2+2=5, it won't make it so.


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## Obryn (Jul 15, 2008)

Fenes said:


> Then a lot of planes and other technology will spectaculary fail.
> 
> Belief won't make reality. Even if everyone on earth would think 2+2=5, it won't make it so.



Or the symbols you're using to represent the mathematics get redefined.

-O


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