# Arcane Thesis Abuse (PHB II)



## Glyfair (May 16, 2006)

I was looking at this feat today.  Among other things it allows you to choose a single spell and "when you apply a metamagic feat to that spell, the enhanced spell uses up a slot one level lower than normal."

OK, what happens if you apply a metamagic feat to it that doesn't increase the level of the spell, by the RAW.  Say you apply "Eschew Materials" to Fireball, does that mean it only takes up a 2nd level slot?


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## Kurotowa (May 16, 2006)

There's no such animal, AFAIK.  Eschew Material isn't a metamagic feat, and I don't know of any actual metamagic feat that doesn't raise the spell's slot level.


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## Mouseferatu (May 16, 2006)

Eschew Materials is not a metamagic feat.

But to answer the spirit of your question, I would not allow the ability to reduce a spell below its normal level. The ability is clearly intended to make metamagic feats cheaper, not to make the actual spell any easier to cast.


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## Mouseferatu (May 16, 2006)

Kurotowa said:
			
		

> There's no such animal, AFAIK.  Eschew Material isn't a metamagic feat, and I don't know of any actual metamagic feat that doesn't raise the spell's slot level.




Energy Substitution, IIRC.


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## StormCrow42 (May 16, 2006)

First, Eschew Materials isn't a metamagic feat.  Second, even if you did allow it for metamagic feats that don't require a higher level, it's not all that unbalancing.  You still can't learn the spell until you've hit the appropriate level.  That is assuming that the full text of the feat doesn't explicitly cover that contingency.


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## Glyfair (May 16, 2006)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Eschew Materials is not a metamagic feat.



Hmmm..I must have been thinking of the 3.0 version (which was a metamagic feat).



> But to answer the spirit of your question, I would not allow the ability to reduce a spell below its normal level. The ability is clearly intended to make metamagic feats cheaper, not to make the actual spell any easier to cast.



I wouldn't either (barring allowing it for a specific spell that I wouldn't have a problem being a level lower).


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## Ditch (May 16, 2006)

I"ve seen some things that reduced metamagic levels for spells (like Incantatrix PrC) but they all stated that it still had a minimum adjustment of +1 level.

Now, I don't have the PHB II yet so I just gotta ask... is there no minimum stated in the feat description?


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## RigaMortus2 (May 16, 2006)

Ditch said:
			
		

> I"ve seen some things that reduced metamagic levels for spells (like Incantatrix PrC) but they all stated that it still had a minimum adjustment of +1 level.
> 
> Now, I don't have the PHB II yet so I just gotta ask... is there no minimum stated in the feat description?




Not the way it is worded...



> *Benefit*: Choose one arcane spell that you can cast to be your thesis spell.  When casting that spell, you do so at +2 caster level.  When you apply a metamagic feat other than Heighten Spell to that spell, the enhanced spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than normal.  For example, an empowered thesis spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual slot (rather than the normal two levels higher).




And Energy Substitution from Complete Arcane says



> *Benefit*: Choose one energy type (acid, cold, electricity, or fire),  You can then modify any spell with an energydescriptor to use the chosen type of energy instead.  An energy substituted spell uses up a spell slot of the spell's normal level.  The spell's descriptor changes the new energy type -- for example, fireball composed of cold energy is an evocation [cold] spell.


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## Hypersmurf (May 16, 2006)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> Say you apply "[[Energy Substitution]]" to Fireball, does that mean it only takes up a 2nd level slot?




Nice!

-Hyp.


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## Seeten (May 16, 2006)

My necromancer just took the Energy Substitution feat about 30 seconds ago...right when I read this post. Oh, and Arcane Thesis. 

Wow, thats not at all broken, is it?


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## Jack Simth (May 16, 2006)

That would be liable to bite you later in your character's career.

Okay, so you're a Wiz-6 with Arcane Thesis (Fireball) and Energy Substitution (cold) (or whatever).  You throw out 8d6 (Cold)Fireballs with 2nd level spell slots.

So you just blast through nearly everything.

So now you're a Wiz-10; Fireball caps at 10d6, so the increased caster level doesn't help.  You can Empower them in 4th level slots for 15d6, so you're still getting a benefit, but it is considerably less of an impact than it was at 6th.

So now you're a Wiz-15; Oh, yeah, Fireball - sure, I use it when I know I'm facing mooks.  Otherwise?  Not so much.  Seems just about everything takes half damage from it anymore.....

So now you're a Wiz-20.  And that Arcane Thesis (Fireball) you took for your 6th level feat is now rather.... useless.  Those 2nd level slots are usually going for See Invisibility, Web, Glitterdust, and the like; the 3rd level slots often hold Flight.


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## Mistwell (May 16, 2006)

Given the new tradable feat rules in that same book, claiming it's useless by 20th level doesn't have the same impact it used to have.


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## Thaniel (May 16, 2006)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Given the new tradable feat rules in that same book, claiming it's useless by 20th level doesn't have the same impact it used to have.



 Assuming your DM allows those rules, which I think is rather iffy based on what DMs I've spoken to.


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## Particle_Man (May 16, 2006)

Or the DM could have a moment to think and say "NO way in hell does your character cast a fireball as a 2nd level spell, no matter what feats you have."


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## KarinsDad (May 16, 2006)

Jack Simth said:
			
		

> So now you're a Wiz-10; Fireball caps at 10d6, so the increased caster level doesn't help.  You can Empower them in 4th level slots for 15d6, so you're still getting a benefit, but it is considerably less of an impact than it was at 6th.
> 
> So now you're a Wiz-15; Oh, yeah, Fireball - sure, I use it when I know I'm facing mooks.  Otherwise?  Not so much.  Seems just about everything takes half damage from it anymore.....
> 
> So now you're a Wiz-20.  And that Arcane Thesis (Fireball) you took for your 6th level feat is now rather.... useless.  Those 2nd level slots are usually going for See Invisibility, Web, Glitterdust, and the like; the 3rd level slots often hold Flight.




You don't need Energy Substitution to make this good, but it helps.

There are a lot of good metamagic feats that can be added to Fireball at high level to make it rock. Course, most of these work better with the on the fly Sorcerer instead of a Wizard, but unless you take Sorcerer/Incantrix, the number of metamagic feats available is less.

Heighten, Widen, Maximize (60) plus Empower (~17), there is a feat that adds 2 points per die to the attack (which becomes 3 for Empower DM dependent), there is a metamagic feat that allows you to cast the spell back to back on two consecutive rounds (i.e. it fires off twice), etc.

Granted, I would wait for Arcane Thesis until Cone of Cold myself.


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## Someone (May 16, 2006)

Wow, the possibilities with Acid splash are endless. Since a substituted acid splash with arcane thesis is a -1 level spell, wands and scrolls make you earn money and XP when you make them, and you finish making them before you start!


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## KarinsDad (May 16, 2006)

Someone said:
			
		

> Wow, the possibilities with Acid splash are endless. Since a substituted acid splash with arcane thesis is a -1 level spell, wands and scrolls make you earn money and XP when you make them, and you finish making them before you start!




Cool. 

Sign me up!


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## Infiniti2000 (May 16, 2006)

Jack Simth said:
			
		

> So now you're a Wiz-15; Oh, yeah, Fireball - sure, I use it when I know I'm facing mooks.  Otherwise?  Not so much.  Seems just about everything takes half damage from it anymore.....



 That's why you combine it with that +1 level metamagic feat from Sandstorm, forget the name, similar to Piercing Cold from Frostburn, that reduces your opponents' resistances.  The fireball is still 3rd level, but at the cost of two feats (one dedicated) you can still affect opponents with resistance 30.


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## Nightchilde-2 (May 16, 2006)

I think this would invoke the House Rule of Common Sense, along with the whole "all your gear and equipment meld into your new form" with the new Polymorph subschool.  

Sure, if you polymorph to a dragon your equipment should meld, but if you alter self to look like, say, an orc, you shouldn't suddenly become a nekkit orc.


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## Simplicity (May 16, 2006)

Yes, but my question is:
What level is a Maximized, Empowered fireball with Arcane Thesis (Fireball)?


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## Hypersmurf (May 16, 2006)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> Yes, but my question is:
> What level is a Maximized, Empowered fireball with Arcane Thesis (Fireball)?




It's an interesting question.  Is the "When you apply a metamagic feat to the spell" condition fulfilled twice?

A spontaneous caster only increases casting time once, no matter how many feats he applies... but the increase is for casting "a metamagic version of a spell", so that fits the wording.

The implication of the Arcane Thesis wording is that each feat applied reduces spell level by one...

-Hyp.


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## Simplicity (May 16, 2006)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> It's an interesting question.  Is the "When you apply a metamagic feat to the spell" condition fulfilled twice?
> 
> A spontaneous caster only increases casting time once, no matter how many feats he applies... but the increase is for casting "a metamagic version of a spell", so that fits the wording.
> 
> ...




Awesome!  I gotta get me some of them Empowered, Empowered, Empowered, Empowered, Empowered, Empowered, Empowered, Empowered Magic Missiles.  ~25 * 5d4 isn't too shabby for damage.  Plus it's fun to write on your character sheet.


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## Infiniti2000 (May 16, 2006)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> Awesome!  I gotta get me some of them Empowered, Empowered, Empowered, Empowered, Empowered, Empowered, Empowered, Empowered Magic Missiles.  ~25 * 5d4 isn't too shabby for damage.  Plus it's fun to write on your character sheet.



 That still can't be done: "You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell."


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## Particle_Man (May 16, 2006)

I think they closed the "Empowered empowered" loophole so you can't repeat the same metamagic feats on the same casting of a spell.


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## Simplicity (May 16, 2006)

Aw.  WotC is no fun...


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## KarinsDad (May 17, 2006)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> The implication of the Arcane Thesis wording is that each feat applied reduces spell level by one...




That's not an implication, that's a Hyp inference.  



> When you apply a metamagic feat other than Heighten Spell to that spell, the enhanced spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than normal.




You have to ask yourself the following questions:

What is the *normal* level of a Maximized Empowered Fireball? 8
What is one level below the normal level? 7

Now, there is a fair argument that when you apply the Empowered to the Fireball, it *normally* is level 4 (for the Thesis spell) and when you apply Maximized to that, it now becomes 7 and is lowered to 6.

There is also a fair argument that when you apply the Empowered to the Fireball, it becomes level 4 (for the Thesis spell) and when you apply Maximized to that, it becomes 7 and since the spell already uses a spell slot one level lower than normal, the second metamagic does not change that (i.e. two levels below normal is not one level below normal).

The fact is, either interpretation is valid, depending on how you read (or want to read) the feat.


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## Aust Diamondew (May 17, 2006)

Someone said:
			
		

> Wow, the possibilities with Acid splash are endless. Since a substituted acid splash with arcane thesis is a -1 level spell, wands and scrolls make you earn money and XP when you make them, and you finish making them before you start!



 Does that mean if my character plans to do energy substition and arcane thesis acid splash I can have the magic items before I take the feat?  Can I auto level as high as I want?


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## Hypersmurf (May 17, 2006)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> What is the *normal* level of a Maximized Empowered Fireball?




Hmm, true.  I was focusing on the 'when you apply' rather than the 'lower than normal'.

Although:

_A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative._

Metamagic feats all refer to "the spell's actual level", which doesn't change except in the case of Heighten Spell... and yet the 'changes to its level are cumulative' clause results in an Empowered Maximized fireball taking up a slot 5 levels higher than "the spell's actual level".

Presumably, the same clause will result in a Thesis version of the spell taking up a slot 5 levels higher than the spell's actual level, but 2 levels lower than normal...

-Hyp.


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## Amazing Triangle (May 17, 2006)

But a second level fireball has a save of DC 12 + modifier instead of 13+modifier.  This sometimes can make a huge difference in who makes the save and who doesn't.


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## Jack Simth (May 17, 2006)

Oh, it's still a level-3 spell; it's just taking up a slot one level lower than normal, just as an Empowered fireball is still a 3rd level spell, it just takes up a slot two levels higher than normal.


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## Jack Simth (May 17, 2006)

Someone said:
			
		

> Wow, the possibilities with Acid splash are endless. Since a substituted acid splash with arcane thesis is a -1 level spell, wands and scrolls make you earn money and XP when you make them, and you finish making them before you start!



That doesn't quite work out:


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items. Creating an item requires one day per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price, *with a minimum of at least one day*. Potions are an exception to this rule; they always take just one day to brew. The character must spend the gold and XP at the beginning of the construction process.



(Emph*asis* added)

So it takes you one day each to make those caster level 1, -1 level spell scrolls, each of which causes you to spend -1 xp and -12.5 gp, and is worth -25 gp (unless you make them at higher caster levels......).  Going from level 1 to level 2 in this manner will take you 1,000 days, or about 3 years.  Then, using your caster level of 2, you get -1 spell level scrolls at caster level 2 for an expenditure of -2 xp and -25 gp; to get the 2,000 xp to go from level 2 to level 3 will take you.... 1,000 days.  So, to go up 19 levels (1st-20th) doing this, you need to spend 19,000 days crafting scrolls that are worth progressively less (a +1 caster level item, such as the Orange Prisim Ioun Stone, speeds things up, but only slightly).  It runs about 52 years.  A human Wizard could, depending on the prerequisites of the feats, start doing this at 1st level, but would be Venerable by the time the Wizard started adventuring (minimum starting age for a human wizard: 17; +19 levels from that abusive trick: 53 years; Venerable Human: 70 years).  An Elf would *might* be middle aged.  If you happen to have access to the Psionics handbook, an Elan would still be a normal adult.  

Of course, as a DM, if those happened to be on my list of allowable sources, a player attempting this logic would earn a quick thwap on the head with whatever book was biggest.

Edit: Ah!  Wands, at 5th level, would speed things up considerably; Wand's market price: 750 * spell * caster; stuck with a -1 level spell, tops, but a wand of Arcane Thesis Substituted Ray of Frost would grant you, at caster level 5, 1875 gp and 150 xp per wand; at one wand per day, it only takes 33 1/3 such to gain a level that way.  As it scales, a caster level 6 wand of Arcane Thesis Substitued Ray of Frost would get more gp and XP, and would thus take the same number of days to reach the next level.  So 5,000 days to get to 5th level, then 33 and 1/3rd days per level thereafter (call it 34).  With a 365 day year, getting to 20th level takes 5000+34*15= 5,510 days, or about 15 years.  And leaves you with 12.5 more GP than XP.

Edit 2: And forgot the +2 caster level!  Oy, I'm missing off ball today.  So that -1st level scroll is valued at -75 gp, so 3 xp and 37.5 gp/day; 334 days to 1st level.  Then you put out 4th caster level -1 spell level Rays of Frost(Acid) market at -100 gp, so 4 xp and 37.5 gp/day; 500 days to 2nd level.  At 3rd, caster level 5th, 5 xp/day, 600 days; 4th, caster level 6th, 6 xp/day, 667 days.  At 5th, take Craft Wand for caster level 7 wands of -1 spell level Rays of Frost (Acid) for market 5250, gain 210 xp/day, 23 days to level 6.  Level 7

Ah, spreadsheets....
[sblock]
	
	



```
Level	Caster Level	Item Value	Materials	XP	Days to next level
1	3	-75	-37.5	-3	333.3333333
2	4	-100	-50	-4	500
3	5	-125	-62.5	-5	600
4	6	-4500	-2250	-180	22.22222222
5	7	-5250	-2625	-210	23.80952381
6	8	-6000	-3000	-240	25
7	9	-6750	-3375	-270	25.92592593
8	10	-7500	-3750	-300	26.66666667
9	11	-8250	-4125	-330	27.27272727
10	12	-9000	-4500	-360	27.77777778
11	13	-9750	-4875	-390	28.20512821
12	14	-10500	-5250	-420	28.57142857
13	15	-11250	-5625	-450	28.88888889
14	16	-12000	-6000	-480	29.16666667
15	17	-12750	-6375	-510	29.41176471
16	18	-13500	-6750	-540	29.62962963
17	19	-14250	-7125	-570	29.8245614
18	20	-15000	-7500	-600	30
19	21	-15750	-7875	-630	30.15873016
20	22	-16500	-8250	-660	30.3030303
					1906.168006
```
[/sblock]
Ah, ~1,906.168 days.  Five years and a few months, to go from Wiz-1 to Wiz-20, assuming Arcane Thesis and Energy Substitution at 1st level.  And incidentally, you have 12.5 * your XP in gp at any given point (but 25 gp * your XP in negative assets.... unless you burn them for warmth or something).


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## KarinsDad (May 17, 2006)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Presumably, the same clause will result in a Thesis version of the spell taking up a slot 5 levels higher than the spell's actual level, but 2 levels lower than normal...




Or not. It all depends on how one wants to interpret it since it is not crystal clear.


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## marune (May 17, 2006)

Seriously, you just don't think that the designer's intent was : One level lower, minimum = normal spell level? I won't even hesitate for a second on this.


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## Seeten (May 17, 2006)

I love designer's intent, but I bet we'll swiftly get errata on this one.


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## Crothian (May 17, 2006)

skeptic said:
			
		

> Seriously, you just don't think that the designer's intent was : One level lower, minimum = normal spell level? I won't even hesitate for a second on this.




People like to argue the words written.  This just gets in the way of that.


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## Mistwell (May 17, 2006)

So my 9th level wizard casts an energy subsituted, nonlethal substituted, empowered scorching ray using a first level spell slot with this feat for 12d6+50% worth of nonlethal acid damage with some ranged touch attacks and no saving throws, for an average of 63 points of damage if your ranged touch attacks hit.  And it can be quickened too to bring it up to a 4th level spell for 126 points of damage a round if your 6 ranged touch attacks hit (for a 4th level and a 1st level spell) 

Okay yeah...this is getting silly.  Needs errata.


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## Jack Simth (May 17, 2006)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> So my 9th level wizard casts an energy subsituted, nonlethal substituted, empowered scorching ray using a first level spell slot with this feat for 12d6+50% worth of nonlethal acid damage with some ranged touch attacks and no saving throws, for an average of 63 points of damage if your ranged touch attacks hit.  And it can be quickened too to bring it up to a 4th level spell for 126 points of damage a round if your 6 ranged touch attacks hit (for a 4th level and a 1st level spell)



No, no, no .... your 1st level human wizard makes -1 spell level Energy Substituted Ray of Frost scrolls, at a gain of GP and XP

Your 3rd level human wizard makes -2 spell level Energy Substituted (Energy Substituted Ray of Frost) scrolls (two different energy substitutions), at a gain of GP and XP

Your 5th level human wizard makes -2 spell level Energy Substituted (Energy Substituted Ray of Frost) wands (two different energy substitutions) at a big gain of GP and XP.

Your 9th level human wizard makes -3 spell level  Energy Substituted (Energy Substituted (Energy Substituted Ray of Frost)) wands (three different energy substitutions) at a really big gain of GP and XP.

Your 10th level human wizard makes -4 spell level Energy Substituted( Energy Substituted (Energy Substituted (Energy Substituted Ray of Frost))) wands (four different energy substitutions) at an enormous gain of GP and XP.

Hmm... at what point does this interpertaion make a full level per wand?  If you can dig up enough +0 spell level metamagic feats, at 20th level, he's making 6,600 xp per wand (10 +0 metamagic feats, all reduced by 1 by Arcane Thesis to -1 level adjustments, applied to a 0th level spell, at caster level 22; -10th level spell, caster level 22, wands valued at -165,000 gp; "spend" -6,600 xp and -82,500 gp).  At Epic, 21st, that would be 11 such +0 feats, 7,590 xp per wand, 12 for 9000 xp each at 23rd .... and that's assuming he never picks up / Wishes up any Orange Prism Ioun Stones or similar.... he'd get a different time chart doing that, but basically loses all feats to the beast .... and the majority would still be spent in the 1st-5th transition, where only scrolls are available....  17 such feats to spend at 30th ... -17*32*750=-408,000; 16,320 xp each - still not a full level per .... 40th would have 23 such  at 28,980 xp per wand; 50th would have 30 such at 78,000 xp each .... gee, a level a day with no combat..... at 50th level.  Assuming you can find 30 +0 spell level adjustment feats.  And that Thesis feat works per metamagic feat applied.  And your DM doesn't drop a cow on your character's head (it wants it's cheese back).  And that it actually works that way.  Et cetera.



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> Okay yeah...this is getting silly.  Needs errata.



Agreed.


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## Hypersmurf (May 17, 2006)

Jack Simth said:
			
		

> Your 3rd level human wizard makes -2 spell level Energy Substituted (Energy Substituted Ray of Frost) scrolls (two different energy substitutions), at a gain of GP and XP




I'm not convinced that's valid 

Energy Subsitution isn't four different metamagic feats; it's one metamagic feat that can be taken four times.

_You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell._

As a very tangential aside, this train of thought made me wonder - can a character with Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization in both Elven Thinblade and Longsword gain +2 to attack rolls and +4 to damage with his thinblade?

-Hyp.


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## 3d6 (May 17, 2006)

> Weapon Focus [General]
> Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat.
> 
> Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
> ...



Weapon Specialization also specifies that it does not stack with itself. So, unfortunatly, no +6 on attacks and +12 on damage by taking Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Greater Weapon Specialization for the thinblade, rapier, and longsword.


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## Hypersmurf (May 17, 2006)

3d6 said:
			
		

> Weapon Specialization also specifies that it does not stack with itself.




Ah, true.

Heh.  I get the impression that's accidental - that the phrase is there to say "You can't take Weapon Focus (longsword) twice" - but it covers my question neatly 



> So, unfortunatly, no +6 on attacks and +12 on damage by taking Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Greater Weapon Specialization for the thinblade, rapier, and longsword.




Well, even were stacking not disallowed, the character can treat it as a longsword _or_ a rapier, not a longsword _and_ a rapier 

-Hyp.


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## Someone (May 17, 2006)

Well, quoting your quote:



> The character must spend the gold and XP at the beginning of the construction process




Therefore, if rules prohibit you from tearing the fabric of spacetime finishing items before you start crafting them, they are silent on how many times per day you can start or abandon a proyect, and therefore we can hold on that to screw the rules maniacally. The process would be as follows:

"I think I´ll make a wand of cold-substituted acid arrow"

*ping*

"Nah, I think I won´t do it. On the other hand, perhaps it´d be a good idea"

*ping*

"Or perhaps no? Better not do it. But actually, such a wand would be great to cool water and beer"

*ping*

...


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## Question (May 17, 2006)

Response (Zephreum H.)	05/17/2006 08:59 AM
Thank you for contacting us.

It can reduce the slot modifier so that it does not use a slot higher than your spell, but you cannot lower it beyond the level of spell you are casting.

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## Mistwell (May 17, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> Response (Zephreum H.)	05/17/2006 08:59 AM
> Thank you for contacting us.
> 
> It can reduce the slot modifier so that it does not use a slot higher than your spell, but you cannot lower it beyond the level of spell you are casting.
> ...




Still doesn't really answer the question of what level spell slot is used to cast an energy substituted, nonlethal substituted, maximized fireball.  Is it a 5th level spell, or a 3rd level spell?


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## Ditch (May 17, 2006)

Good point!  I'd really like to know if it applies to each metamagic feat applied to the spell, or just -1 level after all of the adjustments to level are made.  This would make a huge difference in how many matamagic feats I'd take.  Obviously all the +1 level metamagic feats become free if you use the liberal interpretation, so every time I'd cast my thesis spell it would be silent, stilled, enlarged, extended, etc...


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## Henry (May 17, 2006)

Regarding Arcane Thesis and the metamagic adjustment: I find it perfectly reasonable to assume "to a minimum of the same spell level" as legitimate ruling. Just like Cure light wounds doesn't give you bonus hit points, and Mithril Chain gives you a +0 to your armor check penalty instead of a +1, I'd say that similar reasoning would apply here.

Of course, until they errata it, if you can get a DM to go along with it, I say go for it! 




> I'd really like to know if it applies to each metamagic feat applied to the spell, or just -1 level after all of the adjustments to level are made. This would make a huge difference in how many matamagic feats I'd take. Obviously all the +1 level metamagic feats become free if you use the liberal interpretation, so every time I'd cast my thesis spell it would be silent, stilled, enlarged, extended, etc...




I think for that reason alone it would be wise not to interpret it in that way.


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## KarinsDad (May 17, 2006)

Henry said:
			
		

> I think for that reason alone it would be wise not to interpret it in that way.




Precisely.

Course, having all of those feats is quite an accomplishment itself.


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## Bill Bisco (May 17, 2006)

I actually started a thread about this exact topic at the Wizards boards. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=638724

I sent Wizards an email asking how Arcane Thesis applied to multiple Metamagic Feats.



> Customer (BIll Bisco) 05/13/2006 11:49 AM
> I'm curious about one of the New Feats from Player's Handbook II. Arcane Thesis says that you choose a spell and whenever you apply a metamagic feat to the spell, the enhanced spell uses one level lower than normal. The feat doesn't list what happens when you apply more than one metamagic feat to the spell in question. Does it lower the increased spell level per metamagic feat or does it just lower the total spell level by 1 regardless of the metamagic feats applied?
> 
> Response (Chris L.) 05/15/2006 08:08 AM
> ...




So yes!, every metamagic feat applied reduces the spell slot by one.  



> what level spell slot is used to cast an energy substituted, nonlethal substituted, maximized fireball. Is it a 5th level spell, or a 3rd level spell?




It is a third level spell if you have Arcane Thesis: Fireball   

As a result of Arcane Thesis, Sanctum spell becomes an interesting feat because it can be applied to any spell even if it doesn't do damage.  Also, for crafting negative level wands and stuff, remember that you need to be at least level 6 to take Arcane thesis since it requires 9 ranks  in Knowledge:Arcana.  I already posted 2 builds at wizards.  I must say that Arcane Thesis is by far one of my favorite feats.


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## Mistwell (May 17, 2006)

Bill Bisco said:
			
		

> I actually started a thread about this exact topic at the Wizards boards. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=638724
> 
> I sent Wizards an email asking how Arcane Thesis applied to multiple Metamagic Feats.
> 
> ...





Actually your question and answer, combined with the prior one in this thread (which said "It can reduce the slot modifier so that it does not use a slot higher than your spell, but you cannot lower it beyond the level of spell you are casting"), does not come up with that result necessarily.  It could be that each application of the feat to a metamagic feat is taken separately, with the "minimum +0" rule being applied each time.

In other words if you want to cast an energy substituted, nonlethal substituted, maximized fireball, you decide on the spell level in this order: 1) an enegery substituted spell would be of the same spell level as the base spell (+0); 2) a nonlethal substituted spell would be of the same spell level as the base spell (+0); and 3) a maximized spell would be +2 spell levels (+2).  The base spell is 3rd level.  So 3+0+0+2=5. Hence, if you add each of these up, you get a 5th level spell slot being used (which is the same result if you had not had not applied the +0 metamagic feats at all).

The way you intepreted it, the +0 metamagic feats apply a -1 spell slot to the entire equation, even if alone they could not apply a -1 spell slot due to the "It can reduce the slot modifier so that it does not use a slot higher than your spell, but you cannot lower it beyond the level of spell you are casting" ruling.

It remains unclear what happens when you apply one or more +0 metamagic feats and a +2 or more metamagic feat to the same spell using this arcane thesis feat.


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## Majoru Oakheart (May 17, 2006)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> It remains unclear what happens when you apply one or more +0 metamagic feats and a +2 or more metamagic feat to the same spell using this arcane thesis feat.



The way I read this feat is "Each metamagic feat adds 1 level less to your spell to a minimum of 0 added".

So, if you applied 7 metamagic feats to a spell, 4 of which were +0, 2 were +1, and 1 was +2, you'd end up with a spell 1 level higher than it started.


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## Hypersmurf (May 17, 2006)

Let's not forget the most important aspect of the feat - it makes Persistent Fear viable without jumping through all sorts of hoops with Prestige Classes or custom domains!

-Hyp.


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## Majoru Oakheart (May 18, 2006)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Let's not forget the most important aspect of the feat - it makes Persistent Fear viable without jumping through all sorts of hoops with Prestige Classes or custom domains!



*shivers*  You scare me, Hypersmurf...you really do...


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## glass (May 18, 2006)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> *shivers*  You scare me, Hypersmurf...you really do...



But do you stay scared for 24 hours?  


glass.


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## Majoru Oakheart (May 18, 2006)

glass said:
			
		

> But do you stay scared for 24 hours?



Yes, he has that effect on me.  And on top of that, I have a low will save.


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## anton1066 (May 19, 2006)

The people who were saying that acid splash would take no money or time are completly wrong. A -1 level spell when put into a would cost you a negative amount and therefore give you XP, gold and Time!. Since it takes a minimum of one day to create a magic item, you get a minimum of one day extra time. 24 hour timestop whenever you try to make one of these items. not to mention the 750gp you get and and 30xp.  

These new rules now make it possible for NPC magic item creators to exist without burning up all their xp.


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## Ycore Rixle (May 19, 2006)

Wow, that will teach me to not check on the D&D Rules board for a few days! (And by the way, I saw someone with the .sig "Every time I go to the D&D Rules board, I think, 'Yes, it sure does,'" and although I can't remember his or her name right now, for which all apologies!, I have to say that that is an excellent line.)

I'm the original designer of the Arcane Thesis feat. I say original designer because the version that appears in the PHB II is different from the feat I designed. This is a normal consequence of Wizards' development process, and every book, without exception, benefits from their development. I point this out only to act as a caveat to what I'm about to say. Which is this: I shouldn't be taken as the final arbiter on this feat; I was only a small piece in the process of bringing the PHB II to you.

For what it's worth, then, I would rule as Majoru Oakheart does (see his posting just previous to mine). Each metmagic feat applied to a thesis spell adds 1 level less than normal, with a minimum of 0 levels added. Thus, if you apply one metamagic feat with an adjustment of +2 levels to your thesis fireball spell, then you end up with a 4th level spell. If you apply two metamagic feats with adjustments of +2 and +3 levels to your thesis fireball spell, then you end up with a 6th level spell. If you apply four metamagic feats with adjustments of +0, +0, +1, and +3 to your thesis fireball spell, then you end up with a fifth level spell.

Personally I think everyone who takes the feat should also record the name of his thesis: _Fireball and the Kobolds of the Caves of Chaos: Forty-Four Case Studies; Melf and His Arrow; How Magic Is Your Jar?_. Bonus points if you write out the first paragraph on edge-burnt parchment and insist on thrusting it into the hands of players at the table saying, "Read my thesis, read my thesis."


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## Hypersmurf (May 19, 2006)

anton1066 said:
			
		

> A -1 level spell when put into a would cost you a negative amount and therefore give you XP, gold and Time!. Since it takes a minimum of one day to create a magic item, you get a minimum of one day extra time.




Negative one days is less than one day, and therefore below the minimum.

-Hyp.


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## EyeontheMountain (May 19, 2006)

You know, when I read questions and justifications like this, it always makes me want to give a quiz to my new players, to see how much of munchkins/rules lawyers they are so I can get rid of them quickly.

I hope no player in my gmae would even try to run the negative stuff, or the +0 Metamagic lowers the fireball spell level to 2 nonsense.


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## KarinsDad (May 19, 2006)

EyeontheMountain said:
			
		

> I hope no player in my gmae would even try to run the negative stuff, or the +0 Metamagic lowers the fireball spell level to 2 nonsense.




You do realize that people are just having fun with this, right?


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