# Thinking about picking up a guitar



## Umbran (Sep 8, 2014)

The first person that came to my mind here is [MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION] but anyone knowledgeable can chime in:

If one is thinking of taking up guitar, what should they consider for a first instrument?   Either in terms of makes and models, or in terms of features.  New or used, and all that....


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 8, 2014)

Considerations:

1) acoustic or electric.  If electric, playing with others or playing at home?

2) new or used?

3) willing to buy online or try before you buy in store?

4) budget?

5) does resale value matter?

6) where do you live (affects availability & price)?

7) messin' around or serious?

8) hierarchy of needs: comfort, quality, sound, brand name, style of music

There are other wrinkles, but those are the major issues when shopping.  The first seven all are about narrowing the field and where to shop.  The 8th is all about the specifics of finding the right guitar.

My personal take on 8 is comfort matters most, because if a guitar isn't comfortable, you won't practice/play enough to improve.  Quality is next, because mechanical failures are just as discouraging as discomfort.  (I personally HATE "starter" guitars, but they do fill a role.)  in general, sound follows from quality, but not always.  Brand is kind of a shopping guide- anyone can make a lemon or a gem, but some brands are more consistently good or bad than others.


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## Umbran (Sep 8, 2014)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> 1) acoustic or electric.  If electric, playing with others or playing at home?




I am willing to start with either.  I recognize that if I really like it, I will eventually wind up with both.  I have heard that most starters begin with acoustic, but that electric is somehow easier to learn on.  



> 2) new or used?




I am open to either.  I suspect that for a first, the better value would be used.  I happen to walk past a used guitar store on my way to and from work, so used is convenient.



> 3) willing to buy online or try before you buy in store?




My brother (who is also a guitar player) has strongly encouraged me to at least get my hands on the thing before I buy it - per your point #8 below.



> 4) budget?




I am flexible.  A couple/few hundred?  More than that is probably a bit of a waste for a starter.



> 5) does resale value matter?




Nope.



> 6) where do you live (affects availability & price)?




Boston area.  



> 7) messin' around or serious?




I would expect that my start is messin' around, but I am really hoping that it becomes a significant hobby of mine.



> 8) hierarchy of needs: comfort, quality, sound, brand name, style of music




My brother also noted the comfort bit strongly - if the guitar doesn't fit right, playing will be difficult.  Difficult leads to frustrating leads to not practicing leads to not playing at all.  

In terms of musical style - I will listen to and enjoy a wide variety, but I would expect my initial playing is apt to be in the folk and folky end of rock area (as opposed to, say, heavy metal).

Of course, I want the thing to sound good, but I don't expect to be giving concerts


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## Janx (Sep 8, 2014)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Considerations:
> 
> 1) acoustic or electric.  If electric, playing with others or playing at home?
> 
> ...




I agree with Danny's assessment.  A guitar with bad action, that's hard to play, is one that you won't pick up an practice with.  Which in turn means you'll own a guitar, but won't play it.  Thus wasting your money.

Now Danny's got a huge collection, I don't.  And my recent robbery experience, had an interesting side effect.  In May, my house got broken into for a smash and grab.  They took my 2 best guitars, a Cort bass and an Ibanez RG470.  Both were $350-400 guitars as purchased at Guitar Centaur.  The Ibanez was used.  These are not starter guitars, nor are they the bestest guitars (those kind can run $1k-2K).

The insurance company priced them, and valued them at more than I paid.  Then the police found my guitars at a pawn shop and I got them back (didn't get the other stuff back).

The core lesson being, if you spend $300-500 on your guitar, it will hold its value.  Less than that, it's a cheap guitar.  More than that, and you've spent a crapton on something that may gather dust, rather than get played (which of course can be resold).

If you get an electric guitar, you'll need an Amp (not a big one), I prefer a distortion box of some kind.  I started with a $40 pawn shop amp, then added a multi-FX pedal, then got a bigger amp and sold the smaller one.

You could get clever with a TonePort from Line6 which is an effect box you plug into your PC (which means you plug guitar into TonePort, TonePort into PC, and play/practice that way).  Line6 has learning software to teach you songs that hook into it as well, so there's some extra benefits.  Plus, this combination usually leads to playing with headphones, which means everybody wins


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## Janx (Sep 8, 2014)

on " electric easier to learn on":
I assume its referring to Action.  Action is the distance/effort to press the string to the fretboard.  acoustics usually have a higher action, making it harder to fret the notes properly/quickly.

The plus side of an accoustic is that you don't need power, cables, amp, FX, etc.

The plus side of an electric is that you get to use an amp, FX, power etc.   Playing the Star Spangled Banner with the amp cranked to 11 on the 4th of July is powerful fun.

For your type of music, I'd normally assume an Acoustic would fit in.  As the only piece of equipment you need, it keeps your investment smaller.

Try out different guitars, especially in different price ranges.  You should notice a difference every hundred dollars or so...

Bring your brother. Let him tune the guitar while he tries it out.  Then, when you pick it up to try it, it's already in tune.  An out of tune guitar will make any random strumming you try sound like a bad guitar.

With the guitar in tune, give it a strum while not holding any strings down on the neck.  This gives you a sense of what it sounds like, that you can compare to other guitars.  Since you don't know any chords, this is the simplest way to hear the guitar's sound.

To see if you like the Action/picking, start with the fat string (on top), and use your index finger to hold down a string at a fret position (those little bars on the neck).  Put your finger just behind the bar, not crossing over.  Pick that string with your other hand (and a pick or your thumb).  Now release that finger and move to the next fret position with the next finger, and repeat.  Lather rinse repeat for your 4 fingers/4 frets.  Then move to the next string down.

a) you'll look like you are playing a scale (a scale is actually that procedure, just not playing every position)
b) you'll hear the single notes it can produce
c) you'll get a sense of the action/ease of fingering.

Buy a guitar stand or a hard case to keep the guitar in/on.  Friends who don't have a proper place to put their guitar get guitar stands from me on their birthdays.


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## Janx (Sep 8, 2014)

Some thoughts on learning:

Around 2003 or so, I decided to pick up my wife's old electric that she had from high school from her Uncle the Musician and learn to play.

I googled and learned how to read Guitar Tab.  Most lesson sites got too deep into music theory before getting into "here's how to play a song" which is a turn off for most beginners.

I found that the lessons on About.com were actually at the pace and direction I was interested, which was mainly how to play the dang thing and get to playing songs.  The lessons are still there, but the links to the song Tabs are not working anymore due to politics.  If you are looking to teach yourself, I'd go looking there.

I had no musical background, inkling or interest when I started.  Since then, I've played in a community jazz band, learned to read sheet music, recorded an album.  Not that I was good at it, but I did get from zero to good enough to do stuff.  Set some easy goals to learn easy songs like GnR's Used to Love her (3 chords), Green Day, I'll Be Your Man (the Black Keys).  Stuff with 3-4 chords, mostly repetitious and you'll be happy to have learned a song, and ready to take on a bit more challenge.

Getting an instructor can keep you on track better, but you got to get a guy who has the same goal as you do.   A teacher who wants you to master Metallica isn't going to do well with a guy who wants to play folksy stuff.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 8, 2014)

Electrics are easier to learn on than acoustics (for most people) because they tend to have slenderer necks and lower action- the strings are closer to the fretboard.  This means it takes less effort to fret a note, and chords are easier to reach.  You can find nearly professional level electric guitars in the $500 range in the used market.

Acoustics are not quite as affordable.  While there are some good acoustics under $300, most of what is in that price range will not be well made.  Decent aoustics simply cost more to make- all that internal bracing, etc. takes time & effort to get right, and if you're cutting costs, it will usually be in terms of material and parts.

In Boston, you'll have access to most major brands.

Given your taste in music as a starting point, I'd probably opt to do what so many others have- myself included- and start with a steel-stringed acoustic.  My first was a cheapie starter Alvarez that I literally destroyed in a year.

In acoustics I'd look at these brands: 

Yamaha: I have a classical that was purchased new (years ago) for under $300.  It is a well made nylon string that was GREAT as a learner's instrument.  I'd expect similar bang for the buck from their steel string guitars.

Seagull: one of Godin's brands, they deliver a unique visual aesthetic and a LOT of quality for your money.  The S6 is almost universally among the recommend guitars in the acoustic forums I frequent.  Godin, a Canadian company, also makes highly-regarded electrics, as well as quality acoustics under a variety of names including Norman, Art & Lutherie, and Simon & Patrick.

Ovation: the most polarizing brand I recommend.  They are polarizing because they have an inherently bright (trebly, chiming) tone that is not as "warm" as that delivered by traditional wooden guitars.  Their shape & design almost demands use with a guitar strap- many of their designs feature man-made plastic bowl on the back that is slick.  However, that same bowl contributes to excellent sound projection and durability.  Ovations are harder to kill than vampires.  Their necks are VERY similar to those found on electrics, and also have excellent on-board electronics- two features that make them insanely popular with guys who are primarily electric guitarists wanting to go unplugged.

Depending on your budget and what is available new/used, other good brands you should see plenty of include Alvarez, Breedlove, Taylor, Takamine and the Cadillac of American Luthierie, C.F. Martin.  You will also see acoustics from almost every major electric brand: Fender, Gibson, Ibanez, Dean, etc. all make them, but they're going to be hit or miss.  Likewise for store brands like Luna.

Also, if you see a used Tacoma, give it a play.  I love them- own one, looking for more.  Once, they were INCREDIBLE value for money, often touted as playing and sounding like guitars many times their price.  But they got bought out by Fender and discontinued so that they would not compete with Fender's own acoustic line.  (Dumbasses.)  

Generally, you're looking for solid wood back & sides- top too, of you can- as opposed to laminates.  They generally sound better.   You want a straight neck- obviously- and the fret ends should be polished and flush with the sides of the fretboard or neck to prevent the frets from tearing up your hands.  Binding on the fretboard does the same job- it's not just decorative!

My personal taste runs to the single-cutaway for better upper-fret access.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 8, 2014)

Janx said:


> Getting an instructor can keep you on track better, but you got to get a guy who has the same goal as you do.   A teacher who wants you to master Metallica isn't going to do well with a guy who wants to play folksy stuff.




Yes, yes, yes!

I started out by myself- I was a cellist first, so I figured I could self-teach, no problem.  But I found that I hit a wall and developed many bad habits detrimental to both my playing and the care of my instrument.  

My teacher helped me unlearn those habits, and gave me the mental tools to work with to continue learning long after I wasn't taking lessons anymore.

He was a professional gigging musician who had to play competently in a variety of styles, so lessons covered classical, jazz, blues, folk, early/classic rock and a smattering of country.


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## Janx (Sep 8, 2014)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Yes, yes, yes!
> 
> I started out by myself- I was a cellist first, so I figured I could self-teach, no problem.  But I found that I hit a wall and developed many bad habits detrimental to both my playing and the care of my instrument.
> 
> ...




That's an excellent point I neglected.  Bad habit prevention/negation.  I probably do some stuff wrong because I skipped having a formal teacher.  One important aspect of this is certain techniques if learned wrong can be harder on your hand/wrist than if learned correctly.  A self taught could be learning himself into a problem.


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## Umbran (Sep 8, 2014)

Janx said:


> The core lesson being, if you spend $300-500 on your guitar, it will hold its value.  Less than that, it's a cheap guitar.  More than that, and you've spent a crapton on something that may gather dust, rather than get played (which of course can be resold).




This sounds like a good note to remember.  



> You could get clever with a TonePort from Line6 which is an effect box you plug into your PC (which means you plug guitar into TonePort, TonePort into PC, and play/practice that way).  Line6 has learning software to teach you songs that hook into it as well, so there's some extra benefits.  Plus, this combination usually leads to playing with headphones, which means everybody wins




Hm.  That does sounds clever.



Janx said:


> For your type of music, I'd normally assume an Acoustic would fit in.  As the only piece of equipment you need, it keeps your investment smaller.




That's my first instinct as well, though.  I am keeping myself open to either largely for two points:

1) If I go used, my local selection may be a bit limited.

2) Following the comfort line that folks are all agreeing with - I'd prefer an electric that feels good to the hand over an acoustic that doesn't, even if it costs a bit more.  



> Bring your brother.




I wish I could.  Alas, I am in Boston, and he's down south.  This is part of why I ask many questions 



> Let him tune the guitar while he tries it out.  Then, when you pick it up to try it, it's already in tune.  An out of tune guitar will make any random strumming you try sound like a bad guitar.




The one thing I have going for me in this is a good, somewhat trained ear.  It seems to run in the family.  One of my brothers was a vocalist with perfect pitch.  The other plays guitar and violin.  I've done a significant amount of choral and musical theater work in the past, and have demonstrated the ability to tell when a guitar or piano is out of tune, and to gauge some of the tonal qualities of guitars even when they are out of tune.

Worst come to worst, I can get a tuning app for my phone, and use it to tune a guitar in-store, if need be.



> With the guitar in tune, give it a strum while not holding any strings down on the neck.  This gives you a sense of what it sounds like, that you can compare to other guitars.  Since you don't know any chords, this is the simplest way to hear the guitar's sound.
> 
> To see if you like the Action/picking, start with the fat string (on top), and use your index finger to hold down a string at a fret position (those little bars on the neck).  Put your finger just behind the bar, not crossing over.  Pick that string with your other hand (and a pick or your thumb).  Now release that finger and move to the next fret position with the next finger, and repeat.  Lather rinse repeat for your 4 fingers/4 frets.  Then move to the next string down.
> 
> ...




This sounds like excellent practical advice, and I'm gong to stick it right alongside the "how to tell if the neck is bent/warped" and some of the basic information on fitting my fingering hand my brother game me.  Thank you!




Janx said:


> I googled and learned how to read Guitar Tab.  Most lesson sites got too deep into music theory before getting into "here's how to play a song" which is a turn off for most beginners.
> 
> I found that the lessons on About.com were actually at the pace and direction I was interested, which was mainly how to play the dang thing and get to playing songs.  The lessons are still there, but the links to the song Tabs are not working anymore due to politics.  If you are looking to teach yourself, I'd go looking there.




Noted.



> Set some easy goals to learn easy songs like GnR's Used to Love her (3 chords), Green Day, I'll Be Your Man (the Black Keys).  Stuff with 3-4 chords, mostly repetitious and you'll be happy to have learned a song, and ready to take on a bit more challenge.




Yeah, this was my hope as well - the rock/folk area has *tons* of songs that can be done with 3 or 4 chords.  Learning them in basic form becomes good exercise for the hands and ear, and hey, you can play a song!  That can carry you a long way while you're trying to learn more theory and detailed skills.



> Getting an instructor can keep you on track better, but you got to get a guy who has the same goal as you do.   A teacher who wants you to master Metallica isn't going to do well with a guy who wants to play folksy stuff.




Yah.  And teaching style on an instructor also matters.


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## Janx (Sep 8, 2014)

for comfort, I think an electric will do better.  I get carpal tunnel like effects in my wrists now and then.  A "thicker" guitar, with a square edge (like most acoustics) digs into my wrist on my picking hand.  My old yamaha electric is a strat-clone from the eighties, with that same square edge.

A common trend with Ibanez electrics is the sloped face where the picking arm would go.  This is more comfortable for me.  I notice Gibson SG's have a different shape, but also sport an agreeable edge.

So for me, comfort equals=
thin guitar (thicker causes more angle on my picking arm to reach around to the front, which presses on my wrist)
sloped edge so my wrist doesn't argue with the guitar body
low action so I don't have to press as hard to fret notes

Ibanez hits those points for me, so I have one of their basses, electrics and acoustics.



On review of your requirements, I'd say:
get an electric
get a $40 amp, and leave the distortion off (which makes it sound "acoustic like")
get a guitar stand ($20-40 so your axe looks and safe good while collecting dust)

Until you get an instructor, learn more, practice that "every note" scale to build up muscle memory for real scales/picking.  Learn the CAGED chords (C,A,G,E,D are the "open" cowboy chords that many songs use).


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 8, 2014)

Electrics come in 3 basic flavors: solidbody, semihollow, and hollowbody.  Solidbody guitars- your Stratocasters, Telecasters, Les Pauls, etc.- are the cheapest to make.  Semihollows chamber out the body for reduced weight, increased resonance and a more acoustic tone.  Hollowbodies are most like acoustics in terms of their unplugged sound projection.

However, make no mistake- no unplugged electric sounds like an acoustic.  They're not voiced for it, they physically don't resonate the same way.

Right now, my favorite (non-luthier) guitar company in the world is Reverend.  Their electrics are among the best of the best in terms of delivering a well-made product that sounds good, feels good, and doesn't cost a lot.   Most models are under $1000 new, and I've seen (and bought) used ones in excellent condition running $650-800.  Alas, they're a smallish company out of Detroit, so they are hard to find.  I'm in the Dallas area, and I usually have to shop out-of-state or online to buy them.  Still, a company worth considering if you go electric.

And part of what sets them apart is the neck: they essentially have one design, a medium oval contour that is not too big, not too small.  (One design also helps keep costs down.)

Their semihollows are simply killer.

Other favorites: Godin, Fernandes, Electra.

Gretsch semihollows- in particular , the Electromatics- are an option to consider.  Gretsch is one of the great names, and the Electomatics are their entry-level.  Definitely worth a look.

A dark horse semihollow would be the Hagstrom Tremar Deuce.  It's not a common brand, but, oddly Best Buy sells them...online, at least.  Generally well made.

That said, Ibanez Artcore semihollows are among the best bang for your buck semihollows on the market.  I think the Reverend, Gretsch and Hagstrom are better guitars, but the Ibanez Artcores are a LOT easier to find, and they're cheaper than the Gretsches.

If you DO go electric, I would not start off with an amp.  I know, that sounds insane...but I did without an amp for the first 3 years I owned an electric.  Here's how: a portable digital modeling device like one of these (some are discontinued, can still be easily found):

Boss Micro-BR 4 track
http://www.bossus.com/gear/productdetails.php?ProductId=818

Boss Micro-BR 80 
http://www.bossus.com/gear/productdetails.php?ProductId=1167

Pocket POD
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Line-6-Pocket-POD-Guitar-Multi-Effects-Processor-104391875-i1173933.gc

Tascam GT-R1
http://tascam.com/product/gt-r1/

Korg Pandora Mini
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Korg-Pa...ar-Multi-Effects-Processor-H70754-i1746466.gc

Korg Px4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvaXhaTW-B8&sns=em

Korg Pandora Stomp
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PandoraSTOr/

Korg Px5
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Korg-Pandora-PX5D-Guitar-Multi-Effects-Processor-104821715-i1387080.gc

Here is a visual comparison of (left to right) Tascam, my PX-5 and one of my Px4s to my old Aiwa cassette player:







Only the Tascam has decent acoustic recording capacity.  All DO have features like tuners, metronomes, drum synthesizers, and digital amp & pedal modeling.  IOW, they're KILLER practice tools.

So with decent headphones, you can rock out like you were playing Texas Stadium.  And yes, they are all about the size of an old Walkman.

The ones I own: the Tascam has the external mics, a phrase trainer (loop & slow down stuff for practicing), and takes SD cards.  Both it and the PX5 can connect directly to your computer via a USB port.  It is less powerful than the PX5, but, oddly, the PX5 does not have a belt/strap hook.

The ones I don't own: The Line6 PocketPOD is, I believe, the most popular device like this; the Boss might be the most powerful (and priciest); the Pandora Mini is the smallest (its about the size of a stack of business cards), cheapest, and least powerful.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 8, 2014)

Also, don't be like The Treeman.  I can't post the videos here, but Google "angriest guitarist" and you'll find him.  

HI-LAAAAAAARIOUS!


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## Janx (Sep 8, 2014)

those pocket FX devices Danny showed are a good amp alternative.  Kind of like the TonePort suggestion to hook to your PC, but self contained.

A side note on that:  the Line 6 Pod products and TonePort products are all based on the same technology and they all have USB slot to plug into the computer.  So you can fiddle with the settings on the PC screen (nice actually), then use all the settings in the Pod without the PC.

Personally, I prefer the Line6 products.  I have a Pod XT Live (older unit, there's something newer out) that is a Pod, in a floor pedal form factor.

Something like the PocketPod or TonePort is likely right up your alley and hopefully budget.  Technically, there's even Apps for FX, but you need a decent adapter to plug your guitar in (I haven't found one that I liked the price for).

Really, FX is going to translate into "something you can hear through headphones" but all the devices include distortion, etc which is fun to play with and gives you some sound tinkering to do.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 8, 2014)

While I love my Korg & some of the other devices, the Line6 POD is THE industry leader in the field of portable digital modelers.  That means you should be able to find them with ease, new or used.


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## Umbran (Sep 8, 2014)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Also, don't be like The Treeman.  I can't post the videos here, but Google "angriest guitarist" and you'll find him.
> 
> HI-LAAAAAAARIOUS!




That is one *frustrated* individual.


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## Zaukrie (Sep 8, 2014)

I just started about 10 months ago. You will play an electric more, due to the action and other things that make it easier. If you do not want to pay for lessons right away, start with justinguitar.com. seriously great place for free lessons. Rocksmith is also a good tool. I started with a cheap loner, then bought a Ibanez Godin that was great, except it had a floating tremolo that I could not control.  I changed to a Fender Strat. You must spend an hour or three in several guitar shops, just playing.  If they do not tune them for you as you shop,  go somewhere else. Let me know if you have beginner questions. It is a great hobby.


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## Umbran (Sep 8, 2014)

Zaukrie said:


> You must spend an hour or three in several guitar shops, just playing.




That seems like an excellent piece of advice for someone who already knows how to play, and is looking to choose a new guitar.  But, when you don't yet know how to play, outside of doing what Janx has suggested with several guitars, I'm not sure what I'd do with an hour or three.


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## Zaukrie (Sep 8, 2014)

I have a tiny amp right now, but hope to get a line 6 amplifi this holiday season.


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## Janx (Sep 8, 2014)

Umbran said:


> That seems like an excellent piece of advice for someone who already knows how to play, and is looking to choose a new guitar.  But, when you don't yet know how to play, outside of doing what Janx has suggested with several guitars, I'm not sure what I'd do with an hour or three.




That's always the hard part, buying the first one when you don't know what you'd like, or like more than what you've already tried.  Danny's got more experience than me with a variety of nicer guitars.  His taste and budget run higher than I've spent (which might have been more than you were going to spend).

I wouldn't sweat it too bad.  Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM.

Ibanez, Fender, Gibson make some affordable guitars that don't suck.  Try those first.

If you can, spend at least $300 on the guitar.  Not because you're handing away extra cash, but because you are filtering out the cheap stock and presumably buying a guitar actually worth that.  Take notes on the guitar models/brands you like and the price.  Then go google some reviews.  Your main concern is that there's not a flood of negative reviews about product quality.  You can surely recognize an axe that most people like, but a couple people were picky or had a single unit failure.

If you absolutely must buy cheap, buy a Fender Squire Strat.  They are about $100, and are based on the Fender Stratocaster line, but are made more cheaply.  It's probably the best of the cheap models.

Since you're likely buying used (which means a $300 guitar was probably a $400 guitar), you'll need some tips on identifying at-risk guitars.  warped necks, worn frets, loose tuning pegs.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 8, 2014)

Umbran said:


> That seems like an excellent piece of advice for someone who already knows how to play, and is looking to choose a new guitar.  But, when you don't yet know how to play, outside of doing what Janx has suggested with several guitars, I'm not sure what I'd do with an hour or three.




Really?  About all you could so is compare the instruments' voices.  And projection.



...and comfort.





.....and visual aesthetics.


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## Zaukrie (Sep 8, 2014)

I literally strummed guitars as the guy took them off the wall and tuned them. Slide your left hand up and down the neck, and see if you feel the metal bits sticking out the sides much. If so, pass. Watch a bit of justin, he can give you a note or two, and how to hold it online.  I think he has a video on choosing a guitar also. I had the advantage of having played on a cheap guitar for a couple of months, so I could already tell the difference in how hard it was to play. Heck, the sound matters too. Have a guy in the store play different models so you can hear the sound. Also, weight matters. Just hold them like  upu would if playing. Walk around the store and see if it feels too heavy.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 9, 2014)

I kid, but Zakurie is basically right.  Even if YOU can't play, someone in the store- customer or salesman- will be happy to demo damn near anything.  And that will help you figure out the differences that sound pleasant to YOUR ears.

Lesseeeee...some other "obvious" stuff:

1) the deeper the acoustic body, the more volume it has.  The "thinline" acoustics are really designed for playing through an acoustic amp or a PA system.  Their relatively quiet voices are still going to be loud enough to fill a room with sound, but will lack the bass of a larger-bodied guitar.

2) wood affects the tone.  Spruce & cedar tops are popular for a classic steel-string. That is the typical sound most people think of when they want an acoustic.  Mahogany is a warmer sounding wood, while maple guitars are bright and ringing.

3) body shape will also affect the guitar's voice.  The traditional shape- without the cutaway- will have the biggest, most resonant sound.  The cutaway is, thus, a compromise, trading some sonic richness for upper fret access.

4) as you'll find, most steel-string acoustics these days will come equipped with on-board electrinics for use when playing plugged-in.  But not all.  Some are still made as pure acoustics, and if you can find one of those, you can get a little bit of a savings on the price.  I just saw a Carvin Cobalt- a discontinued acoustic- without on-board electronics on Reverb.com that was under $300.  New, that guitar was maybe $100-150 more...but its bigger cousins WITH the built-in EQ and acoustic pickup cost at least $200 more than that.

https://reverb.com/item/134902-carvin-c-250-cobalt-dreadnaught-acoustic-w-ohsc


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## Umbran (Sep 9, 2014)

Danyalcatraz said:


> Really?  About all you could so is compare the instruments' voices.  And projection.
> 
> ...and comfort.




Yes, but a real guitar player would sit down with the thing, and take ten or fifteen minutes (or more, if you're planning on laying down a thousand or more) to noodle out a few of their favorite tunes.  I can't really do that - I can try clumsily running scales, but that's about it.


----------



## Janx (Sep 9, 2014)

Umbran said:


> Yes, but a real guitar player would sit down with the thing, and take ten or fifteen minutes (or more, if you're planning on laying down a thousand or more) to noodle out a few of their favorite tunes.  I can't really do that - I can try clumsily running scales, but that's about it.




Like I said, nobody ever got fired for buying IBM.

Don't underspend or overspend.  You'll probably be fine.  Don't over think it.

Its not like you can't buy a better one after awhile...


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 9, 2014)

You might find this visual chart of traditional body styles helpful:





Among those, I prefer the Grand Auditorium, Dreadnaughts, and Jumbos.


----------



## Umbran (Sep 9, 2014)

Janx said:


> Like I said, nobody ever got fired for buying IBM.
> 
> Don't underspend or overspend.  You'll probably be fine.  Don't over think it.
> 
> Its not like you can't buy a better one after awhile...




All quite true.  The first one needs to be playable, but otherwise doesn't need to be particularly special.



Dannyalcatraz said:


> Among those, I prefer the Grand Auditorium, Dreadnaughts, and Jumbos.




Okay, I just like that a guitar can be legitimately called a "Dreadnaught"


----------



## Janx (Sep 9, 2014)

I look forward to hearing about your quest to find a guitar.  If you're a contemplative shopper, identify the axes you like and somebody here will comment.  If you just go in and buy, tell us what you bought.  

We won't put it down.

One key item: try to find one that stays in tune.  Get the sales guy to tune it, play something, then re-check the tuning.  If it's getting off after some playing, it's got shoddy tuning pegs.

Most of my guitars have locking nuts, and stay in tune between sessions.  I'm at least advising checking that it stays in tune within the same session 

There's nothing worse than the guitar you spend a whole session tuning, because it keeps drifting out.  That's partly olds strings, partly crappy tuning pegs.


----------



## Umbran (Sep 9, 2014)

Janx said:


> I look forward to hearing about your quest to find a guitar.  If you're a contemplative shopper, identify the axes you like and somebody here will comment.  If you just go in and buy, tell us what you bought.
> 
> We won't put it down.




Aw, you can go ahead and put it down.  You guys have given me some great advice.  If I get a cheap guitar, it is because I've made an active choice, knowing that I am apt ot spend more money again if I stick with it.  I'll be open to criticism.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 9, 2014)

Janx said:


> I look forward to hearing about your quest to find a guitar.  If you're a contemplative shopper, identify the axes you like and somebody here will comment.  If you just go in and buy, tell us what you bought.
> 
> We won't put it down.
> 
> ...



1000x amen to that!

Holding tune is so, so, so fundamental to playing satisfaction it isn't funny.  It is why some people will advise that, if you're trying guitars in a store and find one you like, buy THAT guitar, not one from the storage room or warehouse.

It is also a factor only partially related to guitar price, because even some cheap guitars are made with good (or sometimes, locking) tuners.  One of my first electrics is like that: it's an inexpensive Dean EVO Special Select- @$500 new- that holds tune like the strings were glued in place.  There are other aspects of that axe that tell you it isn't pricey, but its ability to hold tune is the equal of damn near every other guitar I own.


----------



## Zaukrie (Sep 9, 2014)

Golly yes, holding a tune is super important.  Really important.  Ask the sales guy for sure. I would say buy a cheap tuner, but your phone or tablet can do that too.....


----------



## Umbran (Sep 10, 2014)

Janx said:


> I look forward to hearing about your quest to find a guitar.  If you're a contemplative shopper, identify the axes you like and somebody here will comment.  If you just go in and buy, tell us what you bought.






Dannyalcatraz said:


> 1000x amen to that!




So, remember when I said the used guitar shop was on my way home?

I went in, and handled a few.  I kind of figured that the differences in comfort would be small - that they'd all feel kind of awkward, to start.  But goodness, no!  The differences were pretty darned striking.  I handled acoustics and electrics, went through the fingering exercise Janx suggested upthread.

I spoke to the gent in the store, told him I was a complete newbie, and asked his advice.  He said, in the price range most new players are willing to play - buy what is comfortable, and you think is *pretty* - if you like how your guitar looks, you'll play it more. 

Usually, I am, as Janx put it, a "contemplative shopper".  I don't buy things for myself often, and I mull things over a great deal.  And I was doing that, until I realized something - I was being contemplative whenever I was holding a $300+ guitar, and not so contemplative when holding a $200 guitar.  I was, to be honest, going to angst and worry about getting it right if I went higher end, and I was just going to buy one if I went for the lower end.  And angst and worry are not conducive to actually learning something new in my life.

So, I walked out with a guitar, a crappy little mini amp, a gig bag, and a handful of guitar picks.  My wife has been bugging me to collect things for my X-mas list, so I chose to leave an actual useful amp for that.  This one is enough to hear the notes, and for the immediate future, that's good enough for me.  I do need to pick up a stand...

The instrument - an Epiphone Les Paul 100.  Black.  

[sblock]
[/sblock]

So, gents, shall we turn the conversation to care and feeding of electric guitars?


----------



## Umbran (Sep 10, 2014)

Zaukrie said:


> I would say buy a cheap tuner, but your phone or tablet can do that too.....




Yes, I was going to pick up a phone app for the purpose, to start with.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 10, 2014)

Umbran said:


> So, I walked out with a guitar, a crappy little mini amp, a gig bag, and a handful of guitar picks.  My wife has been bugging me to collect things for my X-mas list, so I chose to leave an actual useful amp for that.  This one is enough to hear the notes, and for the immediate future, that's good enough for me.  I do need to pick up a stand...
> 
> The instrument - an Epiphone Les Paul 100.  Black.
> 
> ...




Solid first guitar!  No pun intended (rare for me, I know).  A classic.  LP-style guitars are one of the cornerstone designs of R&R.

Get yourself a GOOD, wide and possibly even padded strap.  I know they can cost a lot- some more than what you paid for the guitar, but you needn't spend that much- $50-80 will get you something good from Levy's or Planet Wave, or Fender or some such.  Invest in it because a quality strap will last damn near forever AND will distribute the guitar's weight over a broader area of your shoulders.  That equals comfort, which, as noted  increases inclination to play.  A good strap will also minimize "neck dive": the tendency of some guitars' necks to head floorward when you're not holding them.  Not usually a problem with LP style guitars, but it can happen.

If/when you get a better guitar, most serious players- myself NOT included- modify their guitars with strap locks to prevent the strap from coming off and falling to the ground.  This _can_ happen, especially if you're a vigorous player or have an energetic stage presence or do lots of tricks...but it's  not really needed for your starter axe.

Strings WILL break.  Get a winding tool- they'll save you hand cramps and minutes of time when replacing them and getting them initially returned to pitch.  Also, buy extras to have on hand.  

Note: for the most part, changing individual string's gauge (size) +/- won't have a big effect, but increasing/decreasing them all can affect the amount of force applied to the neck and cause a lack of tension (string floppiness), fret buzz or, in _extreme_ cases, neck warping or even a broken headstock.  Those tiny increases in mass under tension DO add up.  This is an advanced thing, but you should be aware of it.  Just ask the guy who sold you the guitar what kind of set is on it now, and keep buying the same kind of set and it won't be an issue at all.

Keep your dirty hands off the guitar!  Clean hands only, followed by a quick, post-play wipedown with a handtowel will keep your fretboard looking good and maximize string longevity.  Especially if you have sweaty hands.  

Every once in a while, you may still need to clean the fretboard.  How to do this depends on what kind of wood the fretboard is made of.  Ask your salesman.


----------



## Janx (Sep 10, 2014)

Umbran said:


> The instrument - an Epiphone Les Paul 100.  Black.
> 
> [sblock]View attachment 63973[/sblock]
> 
> So, gents, shall we turn the conversation to care and feeding of electric guitars?




Blood.

You must play until your fingers bleed to appease the rock and roll gods.

I generally use linseed oil (sparingly) to clean the fret board.

One important step, as you just bought this and every grubby kid has played it is New Strings and do a Setup.

take it your Guitar Guy, and say "I need a setup done on this"  It costs about $30 around here, which is not around there where you are.

A Setup is where the Guitar Guy puts on new strings and sets up the intonation/action.   By default, the probability that the guitar has the action set optimally, or that the tuned strings are still in tune at the 12th fret is low.  

Intonation loosely explained: If the big fat string is E when you pluck it, at the 12th fret, it is E again in a higher octave.  However, because of science, it's not that way until micro adjustments are made in the bridge to shorten/lengthen the distance from the nut to the bridge.  If the Guitar Guy is really fancy, he'll use a strobe light to check and adjust until it is as close to right as your guitar allows.

Nut: the plastic/bone thing at the top of the neck of the guitar where the strings come from the head stock/tuners and enter the neck.

Bridge: the thing on the main body of the guitar that anchor the other end of the strings.

technically, you can try to do the setup yourself.  I suppose it is manly to change your own strings.  beats me, I've never done it.  I've also only broke strings once.  I favor letting an expert do it the first time (and do the Setup), watch what you can, and you can change the strings next time after you've become comfortable with guitars in general.

Unless you mess with the setup screws on the bridge, you won't likely have to do the Setup again.


----------



## Umbran (Sep 10, 2014)

Janx said:


> Blood.
> 
> You must play until your fingers bleed to appease the rock and roll gods.




I did that once, long ago.  When he went off to college, my older brother left behind an acoustic guitar.  I picked it up, and started to with a book to teach guitar.  I did, in fact, play until my fingers hurt, and then blistered and bled.  And then I had to put the guitar down to heal, and never picked it up again.  So, maybe the Rock Gods will forgive me if I am somewhat more moderate this time around 

I compare my recollection of that to now, and I see what you guys were talking about with action.  Fingering that acoustic was *hard*, and kinda hurt.  So far, fingering on my LP100 isn't bad at all.  



> One important step, as you just bought this and every grubby kid has played it is New Strings and do a Setup.
> 
> take it your Guitar Guy, and say "I need a setup done on this"  It costs about $30 around here, which is not around there where you are.




The store in which I bought claims to do them on every guitar they sell.  I believe them, as I could see the shop area from the floor (it is a small place), and there was a gent actively working on a guitar back there as I was buying.  Yes, a bunch of kids may have been playing that guitar, but I don't think it has been hard-used since they got it.  

I didn't ask yesterday what the cost of doing a setup was.  There's another shop in town that apparently specializes in setups - they cost about $75.  So, I may play with it for a couple of weeks and see how I'm doing before shelling out that cash.  I am, at the moment, less worried about how the guitar sounds, and more worried about getting my fingers to do what they need to do.


----------



## Umbran (Sep 10, 2014)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Solid first guitar!  No pun intended (rare for me, I know).  A classic.  LP-style guitars are one of the cornerstone designs of R&R.




Yesterday, was "hook it all together and make sure it really works" day.  Plug in new cable, turn on mini amp, strum, finger a bit, play with knobs.

Between the volume and tone knobs, and the pickup-switch, there's a whole lot of different sounds the thing will make, even through my crappy practice amp (it has a belt-clip - I could, conceivably, go walkabout playing guitar).  A person could get confused and lost in these alone.  I'm going to find a base tone that I can deal with, and play with knobs later.



> Keep your dirty hands off the guitar!  Clean hands only, followed by a quick, post-play wipedown with a handtowel will keep your fretboard looking good and maximize string longevity.  Especially if you have sweaty hands.




This was the first thing out of my brothers mouth (okay, hands, as we were chatting on IM, but you get the point), too.  

It was clear that the shop did this daily - when I picked up the instruments, they were *spotless*.  Immaculate, even on finishes that would clearly show every fingerprint.  Not a smudge or a spec of dust anywhere.



> Every once in a while, you may still need to clean the fretboard.  How to do this depends on what kind of wood the fretboard is made of.  Ask your salesman.




The body and neck are mahogany.  The fretboard is rosewood.  The deep rich brown gives a lot of character next to the black body of the thing 

Today, after I get home from work and get my jogging done, I'll sit down with the about.com lessons Janx suggested.  The initial page of them has some nice advice:



			
				about.com said:
			
		

> *What you'll need for these Guitar Lessons*
> 
> 
> A guitar with six strings. Any type of guitar will work fine.
> ...




I hope I have what the last line calls for


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 10, 2014)

Umbran said:


> Yesterday, was "hook it all together and make sure it really works" day.  Plug in new cable, turn on mini amp, strum, finger a bit, play with knobs.
> 
> Between the volume and tone knobs, and the pickup-switch, there's a whole lot of different sounds the thing will make, even through my crappy practice amp (it has a belt-clip - I could, conceivably, go walkabout playing guitar).  A person could get confused and lost in these alone.  I'm going to find a base tone that I can deal with, and play with knobs later.




Is it a Pignose?




> The body and neck are mahogany.  The fretboard is rosewood.  The deep rich brown gives a lot of character next to the black body of the thing



A little lemon or orange oil or a product like Fret Rx should keep that rosewood lookin' and feelin' good.


----------



## Umbran (Sep 10, 2014)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Is it a Pignose?




The amp?  No, nothing that good.  It is a little under-$30 list price thing - a Danelectro Honeytone.

I figure on putting a better amp on my X-mas list.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 10, 2014)

Umbran said:


> The amp?  No, nothing that good.  It is a little under-$30 list price thing - a Danelectro Honeytone.
> 
> I figure on putting a better amp on my X-mas list.




Good, because amps are the single biggest factor in how your rig sounds.  Not how good you sound playing through it, but the fundamental pleasantness of your tone.


----------



## Janx (Sep 10, 2014)

in the short term, before you get into those lessons, I shall teach you to play the main riff of Smoke on the Water.  It's that easy.

First off: know your fret board.

if you play a string without holding it down on the fretboard/neck, that's "open" or the 0th fret.
the numbering starts from the top, by the headstock, down to the body (bigger numbers).  You note the fret position with the double dots is the 12th fret.

This means, you'll have markers at the 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th positions on the fret board (and beyond, but this is all you need).

assuming it's a right hander's guitar and you are right-handed, take your left hand index finger and put it on the 2nd fret (just behind the bar) on the big fat string (the E string).

Pick the string with your right hand (duh).

Now move to the 5th fret and pick

then the 7th and pick.

it should be 2,5,7.

Now for the next part:

2,5,8,7 (do the 8 to 7 faster)

2,5,7 pause 5, 2


That's probably the wrong key, but the shape is correct.  The cool thing about guitar is you can change the key (or correct the key) simply by moving where you start.  So I had you start at 2, move up 3, move up 2 more, and so on.  If I told you the correct spot was really on the A string at the 3rd fret, you could just simply move what your doing to the next skinnier string and the 3rd fret and play 3,6,8 instead of 2,5,7.

In any event, if your wife is unmusically informed, this will impress your wife that you mastered a part of a song so quickly and earn you some rock-god points. 

Your welcome.


----------



## Janx (Sep 10, 2014)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Good, because amps are the single biggest factor in how your rig sounds.  Not how good you sound playing through it, but the fundamental pleasantness of your tone.




I started with this little 9-volt battery powered Marshal practice amp my wife had.  Then graduated to a Crate $40 pawn shop amp.  once nice thing about pawn shops is that you are buying "better" gear for the money, since it is used.  Thus my $40 amp was likely a 60-100 dollar amp.  Versus a $30 new amp which is worth exactly that.  though the tech has gotten better...

Not to make Umbran cry, but there's a certain economics to music equipment.  It's OK, x-mas is coming, and I played a lot with that little 9-volt amp...

Anyway, here's some other basic learning tips outside of any specific lessons etc:
practice that basic fingering exercise every day on the guitar.  If that's all you have time for is 4 runs of that, it's better than not picking up your axe.
practice the Chord song, which is a little ditty I made up where you strum each chord you know 4 times evenly and switch to the next chord you know.  Repeat for a few laps.

These 2 physical exercises keep your fingers trained and help you learn to transition from chord to chord and memorize those chords so you can play them when you actually need them.  This is like 10 minutes of practice, so don't skip it.

Eventually, you'll need to know what notes are what and where.
Each night, before you fall asleep mentally recite the factoids I'm spewing below and visualize them on the guitar in your mind.

Once you learn the fat string is E and is numbered 1, then you learn that Every Adult Dog Growls, Barks, Eats.  Which tells you what notes each string is.

Then you learn that the notes form a loop, and each fret represents a half step.  As such, every note has a half step EXCEPT B-C and E-F:
A A# B C C# D D# E F F# G G#

Sharps are just what you call the half step when you go up, flats when you go down.  So A# = B flat (don't have a symbol for that).  This thing wraps around, so if you start at E and it is 0, then count 5 fret positions to the right and wrap around...

Once you know that these things, then you can mentally compute in your mind what note is on the E string at the 5th fret based on my listing above.  When you figure it out, you'll notice a cool thing that is intrinsic to the design of the guitar and arrangement of the strings.

If you work through this computation before bed every night, you will instinctively know where all the notes are on the fretboard, which is useful later.

The about.com lessons will cover a lot of these facts if you don't understand what I wrote yet.  But the mental exercise will reinforce and transform the data into learned material.  Kind of like practicing multiplication tables as a kid.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 10, 2014)

If you do it right, you'll see this:


----------



## Zaukrie (Sep 10, 2014)

Again, check out justinguitar.com for free lessons, including how to practice. Do not play right after washing dishes or showering until you have calluses.


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## Zaukrie (Sep 10, 2014)

Congrats,  it is very fun and relaxing once you start


----------



## Umbran (Sep 11, 2014)

I spent some time this evening fiddling with knobs to find a base sound that works for practice.  I ran through the faux-scales 5+ times, and then noodled around with the riff Janx suggested.  My poor white-collar fingers are a tad tender now, and I can see that buildup of callouses will be called for.

While running scales, paid a goodly amount of attention to not touching other strings - occasionally plucking neighbors to see if they still rang clear. - some of that is going to have to come with added flexiblity and strength, I can see.  I can tell when I'm not fingering right, as I get buzz when I don't.

I found the riff quite useful for a few things - I rant it for a while fingering with just my index finger, and then experimented a bit with reaching up with other fingers, so see what that'd feel like.  When I was doing that, it led to less sliding my way up or down the string.

Tried picking with a pick, and bare handed.  I was getting clearer notes bare handed, so I may tend to that for a while.

And, as suggested, I wiped it down afterwards.  Geeze, does that shiny body show that it was touched by a human!

My current target is to do a half-hour a day.  I might even get into the habit of using this thread to post on when I do new stuff.

Installing GuitarTuna on my phone - for tuning mostly, though apparently it has some exercises that might be cool.

Ordered a guitar stand, and a power brick for the amp - both have already shipped.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 11, 2014)

> Tried picking with a pick, and bare handed. I was getting clearer notes bare handed, so I may tend to that for a while.




Plectrum vs Pick vs Hybrid picking: don't worry too much about which way you go.  Find what works for you, because there is no inherent superiority in any of those, and you will find legendary players using each style.

Also.from the do as I say, not as I do file: my guitar teacher suggested recording my practices.  I did this for a while, and it DOES help.  You'll hear things on the recordings that will let you know what you did right or wrong...or if you stumble upon a cool original riff!

And right now, there has never been a better time to be a guitarist, because the technology of the day is so damn powerful.  For instance, my comments above about recording your sessions?  Well, this is a thing now:
http://www2.gibson.com/Memory-Cable.aspx


----------



## Janx (Sep 11, 2014)

Umbran said:


> I spent some time this evening fiddling with knobs to find a base sound that works for practice.  I ran through the faux-scales 5+ times, and then noodled around with the riff Janx suggested.  My poor white-collar fingers are a tad tender now, and I can see that buildup of callouses will be called for.
> 
> While running scales, paid a goodly amount of attention to not touching other strings - occasionally plucking neighbors to see if they still rang clear. - some of that is going to have to come with added flexiblity and strength, I can see.  I can tell when I'm not fingering right, as I get buzz when I don't.
> 
> ...




That's excellent, I'm really happy you're taking to it and enjoying it.

Technically, the riff I gave for Smoke on the Water is sloppy to play it on one string.  As you learn where the notes are, and why the 5th fret is important (hint: subtract 5 and move to the next skinnier string).  Ideally, you can play most notes you need within a 4 fret box*.  Which means your hand doesn't need to move down the neck, you just move your fingers to where those same notes are found on other strings within a narrower zone.

*for practical usage, this is mostly true.  there are exceptions.

Let me know when you're ready for another easy-bake riff.  7 Nation Army is ridiculously simple, as is iron man.  throw in power chords and you'll feel the rock gods awesome power surge through your fingers and out the tinny amp 

I don't want to overwhelm you with info.  You got lessons to work from.  When you get to the chords for D, A and G, I have a song you can learn to play...from the About lessons even... 

Keep us posted.  I haven't touched my guitars in a while, your new hobby reminds me of the fun I should make time to have.


----------



## aramis erak (Sep 11, 2014)

Whatever you do, avoid the nasty "big box store" brands...

I've seen nothing but bad craftsmanship from First Act (which is carried at Wal*mart) on EVERY instrument.

Even their recorder - $3 for what is supposed to be a C recorder (blokflöte) it was actually a D recorder. 
Their violins are horrid. (I sub a good bit in elementary orchestra... those few who have them after week 4 generally have an instrument that won't stay tuned, has a nasty buzzy timbre, and is made of substandard woods.

Their guitars often have uneven frets, and have really low quality machine heads. Of the 5 I've gotten to see students use, 3 have had the tail break. One lost the entire fingerboard off the neck. the 5th buzzed like a harmonica. 

The only brand I've seen in WalMart or equivalent that was worthwhile recently has been the low end Fender, mentioned on page 1 of the thread.

When I was working in a music store (and for half a year, running it), there were several less expensive brands that had good instruments in the $150-$200 range. Sunlight Guitars were hit-or-miss; play them (or have them played for you). You can get some really nice instruments by putting in the time.

Be wary of any instrument that is discounted... In some cases, I've seen showroom floor damaged instruments put back on the shelf discounted but no mention that the store repaired them. Ask WHY it's on discount. Used is fine. Repaired is usually not.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 11, 2014)

> I've seen nothing but bad craftsmanship from First Act (which is carried at Wal*mart) on EVERY instrument.




Just for the record, this statement is only partially accurate.  First Act also has a custom shop that does stunningly good instruments that have been used by all kinds of professionals on recordings and on stage, including:

Brent Hinds (Mastodon)
Nick Zinner (Yeah Yeah Yeahs)
Rick Neilsen (Cheap Trick)
Matt Pike (Sleep/High on Fire)

Etc.

But, to amplify the point of the quoted poster, First Act's mass produced instruments are AWFUL!

They either need to improve their commercial products, or come up with some kind of better name for their custom shop...


----------



## Umbran (Sep 11, 2014)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> And right now, there has never been a better time to be a guitarist, because the technology of the day is so damn powerful.  For instance, my comments above about recording your sessions?  Well, this is a thing now:
> http://www2.gibson.com/Memory-Cable.aspx




That is one of those things that is exceedingly clever of the person who thought of it, and then bleedingly obvious once you've seen it.  I hope the person who thought of that earns some good money off it.

I am reminded of a story about the Rolling Stones.  Keith Richards was drunk in the studio after everyone left.  Next morning, he found a reel on the tape deck that had the basic riff for "Jumpin' Jack Flash", and 30 minutes of drunken snoring.  (This being opposed by Bill Wyman's claim that he came up with the riff, and is uncredited for it.)

Either way, Keith wouldn't have to worry too much about missing such stuff if he had one of those cables.


----------



## Umbran (Sep 11, 2014)

Janx said:


> That's excellent, I'm really happy you're taking to it and enjoying it.




The danger, of course, is in keeping it up long term.  I have a few tools to do that.

It so happens, for example, that my wife things the guitar just looks cool, and is happy if I keep it in the living room.  So, it will be staring me in the face most evenings.



> Technically, the riff I gave for Smoke on the Water is sloppy to play it on one string.  As you learn where the notes are, and why the 5th fret is important (hint: subtract 5 and move to the next skinnier string).





Okay, so, let me see if i get the concept.  

What you told me is


```
String 1:  2, 5, 7.  2, 5, 8, 7.  2, 5, 7, 5, 2
```

But it could be played:


```
String 1:  2, 5, -. 2, 5, -, -. 2, 5, -, 5, 2.
String 2:  -, -, 2. -, -, 3, 2. -, -, 2, -, -.
```

Not that it would be convenient for the hand, necessarily, but that'd be the idea?  Transpose the higher fret on the low string to the lower fret on the next higher string.

You could even transpose that String 1, 5th fret to a String 2, open, yes?  Cluster the whole thing down at the head, with a 2, and an open, 2, 3.

This would also be a way to check relative tuning, if you have a good ear, by checking that the fretted lower string matches the open higher string.  So, you might not be perfectly in tune, but at least the whole thing would be off by the same amount.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 11, 2014)

Umbran said:


> That is one of those things that is exceedingly clever of the person who thought of it, and then bleedingly obvious once you've seen it.  I hope the person who thought of that earns some good money off it.
> 
> I am reminded of a story about the Rolling Stones.  Keith Richards was drunk in the studio after everyone left.  Next morning, he found a reel on the tape deck that had the basic riff for "Jumpin' Jack Flash", and 30 minutes of drunken snoring.  (This being opposed by Bill Wyman's claim that he came up with the riff, and is uncredited for it.)
> 
> Either way, Keith wouldn't have to worry too much about missing such stuff if he had one of those cables.




Some similar tales have been told of how Johnny Marr came up with the riff for "How soon is now?"

[video=youtube;hnpILIIo9ek]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnpILIIo9ek&sns=em[/video]


----------



## Janx (Sep 11, 2014)

Umbran said:


> The danger, of course, is in keeping it up long term.  I have a few tools to do that.
> 
> It so happens, for example, that my wife things the guitar just looks cool, and is happy if I keep it in the living room.  So, it will be staring me in the face most evenings.
> 
> ...




You're getting the idea.  You've also clued in on how guitarists can tune a guitar without a tuner.  When you know the next higher string is equal to the 5th fret of his predecessor, (5th on E = A), then you tune the 2 strings so they match.  This is also how you check if your guitar is actually tuned correctly (remember intonation...)

Soon you should be reading up on Guitar Tab, but to give a quick example using the Smoke on the Water Riff:


```
6-------------------------------
5-------------------------------
4-------------------------------
3-------------------------------
2 -----0-2---0-3-2---0-2-0-2-
1 ---2-----2--------2----------
```

Hopefully I layed it out right and got the notes right, but this is the formal way to display how to play a riff.  Very close to what you came up with.  The 0 means play the string open (unfretted).

String 1 = E (the big fat string on the top)
string 2 = A
string 3 = D
string 4 = G
string 5 = B
string 6 = E

Another core lesson, which will eventually lead to music theory:
remember how that practice riff has you playing all 4 fingers on each string?
And how the 5th fret = the open note of the next higher string?

If you go all the way back to the list of the "notes", you'll see that the B is NOT 5 frets (half-steps) from G, it is 4.  B breaks the rules.  I suspect it is because if they made it C (because there's not B#), then the next string would be E#, and the point is to use whole notes.

this isn't rocket surgery, but I don't want to overload your brain with more stuff than you need.  You are going to encounter these factoids later.

The key points:
learn how to read Guitar Tab (it's easier to share riffs and most examples online are Tab)
keep practicing that practice Riff
do that riff forwards and backwards (1234, 4321)
practice playing the riff evenly, even while changing strings
start learning some of the CAGED chords

The About lessons will get you to doing the blues scale which is a subset of that practice riff.


I will also give you Iron Man, because it rocks, and because you wife will think you are a prodigy if you learn a new song riff every day:


```
6) ------------------------------------------------
5) ------------------------------------------------
4) ------------------------------------------------
3) ------------------------------------------------
2) ------------------------------------------------
1) -2--5--5-7-7--9-10-9-10-9-10-7--7-5-5-2-
```

Notice how I used extra dashes to reflect shorter/longer notes.  Also, I might not have done the right quantity of 9-10 repeats.  practice it out to get the feel for it and fix it.  or google up some Tab


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## Umbran (Sep 12, 2014)

Did my practice tonight. 

GuitarTuna - so far, a good tool for tuning.  Having tuned the instrument, we'll see if it holds tune for tomorrow or not...

Ran through my scales 5 times - so, is it supposed to be noticeably easier even the second day, or am I fooling myself?  I was only running them forwards - I'll start with running them backwards as well tomorrow.

Found it *much* easier to do the riff using two strings instead of one.

Started getting my fingers familiar with G,C, and D major chords.  Still very awkward.  So many strings and places for fingers to be.  Will see how they are tomorrow.


----------



## Janx (Sep 12, 2014)

Umbran said:


> Did my practice tonight.
> 
> GuitarTuna - so far, a good tool for tuning.  Having tuned the instrument, we'll see if it holds tune for tomorrow or not...
> 
> ...




Good job.

You've got the practice riff,2 song riffs and some chords.  That's actually probably a weeks worth of material to work on so you get muscle memory and stuff.

unless you got fumble-fingers, the practice does get easier.  I don't know if its miraculously overnight or not, but the exercise wasn't meant to be hard, just functional.

Keep up the good work.


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## Umbran (Sep 12, 2014)

Janx said:


> I don't know if its miraculously overnight or not, but the exercise wasn't meant to be hard, just functional.




I'm going to go with the difference being it just no longer being completely alien to me.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 12, 2014)

As you practice, you'll notice that many chords share a common or similar shape.* These fact has been exploited by many guitarists throughout the ages- George Lynch (of Dokken) has often talked about playing "in shapes".

Because of this, anytime I learn a new chord, I also experiment to see if that shape works anywhere else.  As a result, I may not know right away what a certain shaped chord at a certain position is called, but I know it exists.  I know what it sounds like.  It is a bit unstructured, but IMHO, it does facilitate understanding the fretboard.










* this is especially true of what are called barre chords.  If you haven't seen that term before, that is when one finger- usually the index finger- frets all (or most) strings across the neck and other fingers fret other strings.  As long as you maintain the same chord shape, you will be forming chords at any position on the neck.

Here's a non-exhaustive chart for E Standard Tuning


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## Janx (Sep 12, 2014)

another handy thing about these shapes that Danny's chord chart illustrates, is that they are moveable.

as with the barre chords, or scales (the Blues Scale or the "everything" scale I gave you), they have an anchor point that you can set at any fret position on the neck, and then play the rest.  basically transposing it to a different key/starting note.  For scales, that first note is called the Root.

Once you start looking at stuff as being anchored at a starting position, and what you play is relative to that, then changing the key is as simple as moving that anchor point to somewhere else, and playing the same pattern relative to that anchor point.

That's why, if the Smoke on the Water riff I gave you is in the wrong key, it's easy enough to fix...

When you're further along, I can show how this concept helps understand chord progressions.


----------



## Janx (Sep 18, 2014)

it's been almost a week.  What news from the 6-string Umbran?


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## Zaukrie (Sep 18, 2014)

Bar chords over open chords for a beginner? Hmmmmm


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 18, 2014)

Personally, I love both.


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## Janx (Sep 18, 2014)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Personally, I love both.




I recommend the CAGED open chords.  Good toolset for playing stuff, and easy to learn.

In any event, we need a status report.  For all we know the strings have eaten Umbran and he can't play anymore.


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## Umbran (Sep 19, 2014)

No, I haven't been eaten.  

The instrument stays in tune, which is nice.  My little mini amp picks up the _tic tic tic_ of the radio pulses from my smartphone when I'm trying to tune, which is funny, but doesn't get in the way, thankfully.

It has been basically just practice, practice, practice.  A half hour every day is what I've been able to manage, though I think I'll need more.  I run the scales backwards and forwards, work the riffs, practice the chords.  I admit it can take me a lot of work to pick up physical skills, so I have to have patience until my hands start remembering, so to speak.

I am having some difficulty getting fingering for the strings to ring clear - this may be my real issue in learning the chords, because I can't tell at first if I have the finger positions right, because they don't play clearly.  I don't have skinny fingers, so unless I've got the tips of my fingers just so, I wind up touching the next highest string, muting it or causing a buzz.  This makes transitions between chords especially difficult.  I'll get it, eventually, but it will  probably take me a while.


----------



## Janx (Sep 19, 2014)

ah, stubby finger syndrome. I got long skinny fingers, so I don't have advice for that.

For picking notes, you can afford a little slop so long as you cleanly fret the note you need.  In fact, it is handy to have your fingers nub into the unused strings as it mutes them, in case they get struck OR to prevent sympathetic ringing (if you pluck a string, the other string may also sound, just through receiving vibrations from the struck string.

For chords, it is a bigger deal to fret them all correctly, as they all need to be correct to sound right.

One thing I've found that matters is where your neck/headstock is causes your fingers to have more/less reach.

If the neck is low, your effective reach is less, which means your fingers will come in at an angle to the strings, causing them to touch more.  that's bad.

If the neck is higher (closer to your head), then your arm/elbow comes up into the neck, giving you the most reach for your fingers.  This makes it easier to get your tips onto the frets while keeping the rest of the fingers clear of the strings.

Experiment with how you hold the guitar/situate the neck. Notice that rock star low is harder to reach and fret chords.  Hold it like the early Beatles, up high and things get easier.


When you go to bed, mentally visualize the chords you know and where to place them.  It's better than counting sheep and reinforces your knowledge about what to do, making it easier to remember those chords when you actually need them.

Keep up the good work.


----------



## ggroy (Sep 19, 2014)

Zaukrie said:


> Bar chords over open chords for a beginner? Hmmmmm




When I first learned how to play a guitar, I was mostly playing power chords really fast.  Easiest type of chord to play in a mindless/fast manner.

Initially it was fine if one is into repetitive punk rock or metal type of stuff.  (Dunno about other music genres).


If one is into guitar solos played through a lot of distortion, early on I figured how to do all the basic stuff like two-note/three-note hammer-ons, pull-offs, and tapping.


The hardest thing for me initially was learning how to do alternate picking proficiently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_picking


----------



## Janx (Sep 19, 2014)

ggroy said:


> When I first learned how to play a guitar, I was mostly playing power chords really fast.  Easiest type of chord to play in a mindless/fast manner.
> 
> Initially it was fine if one is into repetitive punk rock or metal type of stuff.  (Dunno about other music genres).
> 
> ...




Ah power chords.  I like them.


However, they can be a shortcut to not mastering the basics.  That's why I hadn't mentioned them yet.  Plus, I don't have a grasp on what Umbran wants to play. 


He'll get to power chords around Lesson 5 or so in the About.com series.  they are easy and fun.  But let's get him hooked on phonics first with some cowboy chords.


----------



## Zaukrie (Sep 19, 2014)

Beating a dead horse......

justinguitar.com has some great advice on how long to practice, what to practice, and some finger exercises. I have zero musical talent, but following his advice, I can play songs and chords and other stuff.......


----------



## ggroy (Sep 19, 2014)

In my first few years of playing guitar, I wasn't particularly well disciplined.  I didn't pay attention to any music theory related stuff like scales, chord construction, keys, etc ...

I was mostly just playing fast fingering patterns which didn't conform to any particular musical conventions, which I thought sounded "neat" or "cool" and/or were "complicated" looking.  In hindsight, I was largely doing the equivalent of "fretboard gymnastics" in a stream-of-consciousness manner.


Though by the time I was more interested in stuff like scales, chord structures, etc ..., I was already proficient in doing stuff like alternate picking, and could do stuff like "sweeping", bending, etc ... and transcribing guitar riffs from listening to a song by ear.


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## ggroy (Sep 19, 2014)

Most of all, you should be playing what you like and/or want to play.  There is no point in learning to play stuff you are not interested in.

If you're not interested in stuff like scales, chord constructions, etc ..., then you shouldn't waste your time on it.

(Some may call this undisciplined "bad wrong fun").


If one is not in school or a music program, there's no "one true way" to go about learning to play anything.


----------



## Umbran (Sep 19, 2014)

ggroy said:


> If you're not interested in stuff like scales, chord constructions, etc ..., then you shouldn't waste your time on it.




I'll disagree, insofar as those things give exercise and context of the basics.  I will be *better* at the stuff I am interested, if I also do these


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## Janx (Sep 19, 2014)

Umbran said:


> I'll disagree, insofar as those things give exercise and context of the basics.  I will be *better* at the stuff I am interested, if I also do these




aye.

learning scales is useful in rock, as many of them are used in songs.  Phrygian, blues scale, etc.  Given that it's just a pattern to play on the strings, it ain't like he'd be strainin his brain to learn it.

One of the cool things I eventually learned is how to figure out what notes (and thus what chord) is in a chord progression.  Which in turn meant I could figure out what notes go together for a song, which in turn meant it was easier to figure out how songs are played.


----------



## ggroy (Sep 20, 2014)

Janx said:


> aye.
> 
> learning scales is useful in rock, as many of them are used in songs.  Phrygian, blues scale, etc.  Given that it's just a pattern to play on the strings, it ain't like he'd be strainin his brain to learn it.
> 
> One of the cool things I eventually learned is how to figure out what notes (and thus what chord) is in a chord progression.  Which in turn meant I could figure out what notes go together for a song, which in turn meant it was easier to figure out how songs are played.




For the longest time, the only "scale" I knew was chromatic.  

Then again, I probably wasn't really playing anything that resembled "music" all those years.  (Back in the day, I use to play a lot of stuff that would probably be called "death metal" these days, before the term "death metal" was used).


----------



## Umbran (Sep 23, 2014)

Janx said:


> aye.
> 
> learning scales is useful in rock, as many of them are used in songs.  Phrygian, blues scale, etc.  Given that it's just a pattern to play on the strings, it ain't like he'd be strainin his brain to learn it.
> 
> One of the cool things I eventually learned is how to figure out what notes (and thus what chord) is in a chord progression.  Which in turn meant I could figure out what notes go together for a song, which in turn meant it was easier to figure out how songs are played.




Yah.  Back in my younger days, I had choral training.  In undergrad, I did some musical theater.  Not at all a fully music-oriented education, but enough exposure that I've some of the theory internalized, and can express that with voice.  I'd like to turn that same understanding to the instrument - but that means knowing on a very intuitive level how to make the instrument do what I want.  Fingering notes has to become almost as automatic as singing a note.  Just plain practice in what string makes what sound is the basis of that.  IN theory, building chords is not much different from building harmony with voices.

For update:  Not a good week for practice.  I was at a live action game on the weekend, and had to work late last night, so I have missed several days 

On the flip side, my wife's going to visit a friend this weekend, giving me some time alone on my hands, some of which I intend to turn into practice.


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## Umbran (Sep 23, 2014)

Okay, next question: amplifiers.

I have a mother-in-law that is keen on getting holiday presents, but who isn't rich, and isn't technically minded.  While I could read up on a lot ot tech specs, and make informed choices, my M-I-L won't be able to do that.

There are several sources online where one can find used gear, which is probably good bang-for-the-buck for a beginner.

Are there some basic guidelines can I give that might lead her to success?  Like, "Go to the site, find a used Fender amplifier of 15 - 40 amps".  I am looking for improvement over a tiny sub-$30 new practice amp, which won't take much.

Thoughts?


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## ggroy (Sep 23, 2014)

Not something that can be really described in words.  It's more important to hear what an actual amp sounds like, than any particular brand names or technical specs.

If there's a music store nearby (whether used or new), I usually tried out several different amps to get an idea what sounds like what.


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## Umbran (Sep 24, 2014)

ggroy said:


> If there's a music store nearby (whether used or new), I usually tried out several different amps to get an idea what sounds like what.




That's be what I'd do if I were buying it myself - I'd take my guitar down, plug it in, and see.  

That, however, won't work for my Mother in Law.  She doesn't play guitar


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 24, 2014)

Umbran said:


> Okay, next question: amplifiers.
> 
> I have a mother-in-law that is keen on getting holiday presents, but who isn't rich, and isn't technically minded.  While I could read up on a lot ot tech specs, and make informed choices, my M-I-L won't be able to do that.
> 
> ...




I frequent 2 guitar sites- Guitar Player.com and Ultimate Guitar.com- and know of many more, like The Gear page, etc.  Questions like that get answered all the time.

The usual litany involves questions about:

Budget
Musical style
New/used
Location (affects availability)
Combo amp or head plus cab
Effects modeling or none
Tube or solid state

(There are no wrong answers, just preferences.)

My personal preference is to have a tube amp that delivers a good clean tone that I can mess up with separate  pedals, and I wanted the simplicity of a combo.  I didn't want anything beefier than 50 watts.  When I went shopping for my own with that in mind, my brand finalists were Fender, Peavey, and Vox.  (Since then, I would also add Carvin and Mesa/Boogie to the list of amps like that.)

Beyond those, there are PLENTY of boutique amp makers who deliver that, but then you're talking silly money.

Of that list of 5 makers, the Peavey was my least favorite, and it was a pure toss up between the Fender and Vox.  I bought the Fender.  Tonally, the Carvins are a lot like Fenders, but are only available new via direct sale from Carvin.  You can't try them in store unless you live in San Diego.

Mesa/Boogie is the priciest of the my list, but with good reason.  Where the cleanest tube amps of the first 4 are great for blues, country, jazz, and classic rock, they're not as good at delving into harder genres.  (Those brands do offer amps for those genres as well, but they're not the same ones as I'm describing.)  OTOH, the cleanest Mesa/Boogies are capable of delivering not only great cleans, but also great distorted tones for hard Rick and some forms of metal.  

But all that is me...

How would you answer those questions?


----------



## Janx (Sep 24, 2014)

Umbran said:


> That's be what I'd do if I were buying it myself - I'd take my guitar down, plug it in, and see.
> 
> That, however, won't work for my Mother in Law.  She doesn't play guitar




I think I see the problem.  Maybe we can Deflect her to something useful.

As a general rule, never buy a present in the Hobby Topic for somebody else.  Odds are good they have it, or have a better one, or they have intention to buy a better one.  Money, or something else goes better (kind of like your Mom buying you a Player's Handbook because you like D&D.  Guess which edition you're getting, not the one you wanted...)

Now maybe instead of an Amp, which is a more serious piece of equipment (and pricier).  How about a guitar strap?  they're at least $20, come in many styles.  Or Guitar Picks.  Or the Guitar Pick maker from ThinkGeek.com?

Another possible candidate (though they run pricey) is an FX pedal.  They're kind of neat, and optional.  You aren't in trouble if you don't use it, but you can play with it if you like it.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 24, 2014)

Excellent suggestion.


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## Umbran (Sep 24, 2014)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> The usual litany involves questions about:
> 
> Budget
> Musical style
> ...




So, let us see...

Budget: I'm going to guess my MiL would be happy to be able to drop $100 on me for the "big present" for the holidays.  
New/used:  I'm perfectly happy with used, and expect this would get more bang for the buck.  
Style:  I'm not likely to be playing any really seriously heavy metal - some 80s hair metal would be the limit there.  Otherwise, the folkier end of the rock spectrum.
Location: I'm actually thinking to send my MiL to online sources.  I'm in Boston, she's in New Jersey, so major metro area, East Coast.
Combo vs amp/head: Portability isn't that much of an issue, as I don't expect it to travel much, and my versatility needs are still low, being a beginner.  Combo is likely the way to go, as they're simpler.
Effects Modelling:  I can add much of that with pedals and such as I go, right?  No need to worry about putting it in the amp now.
Tube vs Solid state:  No current preference.  I understand that tubes give somewhat cleaner tones, which is probably my sound preference.  On the flip side, with solid state, I never have to replace a tube.  Solid state is probably cheaper, and for now, that may be the best bet.  

Just to be clear - anything that has an actual wattage rating, as opposed to running off a 9-volt batter, is probably going to be an improvement in my equipment.

My understanding (someone please correct me if I am wrong) on power is this.  I don't expect to play really loud very often.  It is a small house, and it fills with sound easily - though the image of cranking up to play the Star Spangled Banner on the 4th is really enticing, that's not likely to be my standard mode of play   However, I'm also aware of some of the characteristics of amps - somewhat ironically, having the ability to do power also means that it will generally sound better when played at lower volume.  So, while I might not need the volume of something over 15 watts, a 40 watt amp will likely sound better, even with all other things basically equal.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Sep 24, 2014)

I picked up a Fender Mustang (it's $120) when I started to learn last year, and its a pretty good practice amp.  Its got USB connectivity, and with the included software can emulate a lot of amp sounds.  You can plug in a set of headphones and be stealth guitar god if you feel like it... 

If thats a little over what you'd want to ask of her, you could ask for a copy of Rocksmith 2014, which is a game/guitar teaching tool that I've also been using.  Getting the version with the USB cord is important, and its a little more than a standard PS3 or XBox360 game, but might be available on sale as its been out for a while.  The next gen version is coming out pretty soon if you are on PS4 or XBox One.  There is also a PC version.  The USB cord can be used on its own to get sound into your PC for non-Rocksmith related uses (recording, etc), if I'm reading the details correctly, although I've never tried it to verify that.


----------



## Janx (Sep 24, 2014)

Amps:

pawn shops and Guitar Centaur are good places to find used musical gear, including amps.

A few years back, I got a Spyder II 1x12 75 watt amp for $100 in good condition.  new would have been $300, and the Spyder III was just about to come out.

That was a great bargain, and it is about as big as you should ever need to go.

I got my first solid state amp for $40 at a pawn shop, and that was a Crate.  Probably had a 4-6" speaker.  decent sound.  I even sold it for $40 a few years later (gear in decent condition can usually be sold for what you paid for it).

So $40-$100 should get you a decent used amp.  if the MiL buys it, it'll be a surprise on what you get, but it's free, and it's better than a battery powered practice amp (same kind of thing I started with).

Before you go gaga over tube vs. solid state, there's a key lesson on Tubes.  They require energy to get that Tube Tone.  Which means volume.  If you can't turn up past 5, you may never not reach the warm zone, in which case, it won't sound any more magical than a solid state.

Plus, the Tube amp will cost more for same size/power as a solid state.

An extra lesson I learned was that my $40 crate compared to a friend's $40 solid state Fender just could not compete for warmth of tone.  Sure, I had metal distortion down, but toward the clean end of things, the Fender had a warmer richer tone (and it was solid state).

So i would recommend a Fender amp, just on the chance that it'll sound warmer for the style of music you prefer compared to something like a Crate.


----------



## Zaukrie (Sep 24, 2014)

Rocksmith is a great idea for a gift. Tunes strike me as more than you need right now,  I would go solid state.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 24, 2014)

On volume: even a low-wattage amp can be ridiculously loud if cranked.  Even a 15 watt amp can rock the house, although it may not be able to keep up with a live drummer.  What extra wattage buys you- besides some volume- is headroom: an increase in the amount of volume your amp can punch out before it starts to distort.

So a 15w amp will distort at a lower volume than a 40w amp.

That said, I opted for headroom (wattage) over low-volume distortion because, for one thing, I bought very good distortion pedals.  (Yes, plural. )  My 40w Fender never goes to the other side of 4.

On SS vs. tube: tube amps and pedals go together like bread & butter.  SS amps area bit more finicky.  The best ones are just as friendly to pedals as their tube cousins, but the less expensive ones vary in which they work well with, model to model.  Some simply hate pedals...but you wouldn't want those anyway.

And modeling amps of any kind are notorious for not playing well with pedals.

Given the $100 budget, I'd try to aim MIL towards a nice pedal, or better, a gift certificate at a local music store.  Barring that, check the used amps available on Guitar Center, Reverb.com, eBay, etc. for a small Fender, Vox or Carvin tube combo.


----------



## Umbran (Sep 24, 2014)

Janx said:


> I think I see the problem.  Maybe we can Deflect her to something useful.
> 
> As a general rule, never buy a present in the Hobby Topic for somebody else.




Yeah, I know.  That is a good rule, and I usually follow it.

However, I don't normally need a lot of *stuff*.  I'm just not a *stuff* kind of guy.  This apparently makes me incredibly difficult to buy anniversary, X-mas, and birthday presents for.  So, when the holidays approach, it is kind to my family if I take any *stuff* I might want, and get it into the list.  I know that I may not get a perfect item, but it will make them happy to be able to get me something other than a gift card.

From what you guys are saying, I am probably going to be okay if I say, "Go to one of these sites or stores.  Buy a Fender amp between 15 and 40 watts, used," and I am likely to get something that is a notable improvement for me, and within their budgets, and everyone is happy.

I will also put stuff like pedals and other accessories on the list, but from a sheer priority scale, the amp is probably the top real priority.


----------



## ggroy (Sep 24, 2014)

Are you planning to play live gigs (such as at a nightclub) ?

Back in the day when I use to play in a band, I had a Marshall stack.  Eventually I sold off the stack and most of my old guitar equipment when I stopped playing in bands altogether.  It became too cumbersome to haul around when I was moving from town to town, where it was largely just collecting dust in the backroom/storage.

These days I just use a small Peavey practice amp without any pedals.  I just use the built in distortion on the amp.


----------



## Janx (Sep 24, 2014)

ggroy said:


> Are you planning to play live gigs (such as at a nightclub) ?
> 
> Back in the day when I use to play in a band, I had a Marshall stack.  Eventually I sold off the stack and most of my old guitar equipment when I stopped playing in bands altogether.  It became too cumbersome to haul around when I was moving from town to town, where it was largely just collecting dust in the backroom/storage.
> 
> These days I just use a small Peavey practice amp without any pedals.  I just use the built in distortion on the amp.




a marshall stack is over kill for a small gig. I think a 1x12 with 60-80 watts will do the trick. In a larger venue, you should be relying on a PA, not a stack as the amp is for tone, the PA is for distribution.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 25, 2014)

Umbran said:


> However, I don't normally need a lot of *stuff*.  I'm just not a *stuff* kind of guy.  This apparently makes me incredibly difficult to buy anniversary, X-mas, and birthday presents for.  So, when the holidays approach, it is kind to my family if I take any *stuff* I might want, and get it into the list.  I know that I may not get a perfect item, but it will make them happy to be able to get me something other than a gift card.




Brother, you have just picked the right hobby for your gift-giving family members.

There are literally thousands of bits & bobs available, from $3 up to the sky in the hobby. 



> From what you guys are saying, I am probably going to be okay if I say, "Go to one of these sites or stores.  Buy a Fender amp between 15 and 40 watts, used," and I am likely to get something that is a notable improvement for me, and within their budgets, and everyone is happy.




Pretty much.  (Or Vox or Carvin, too.)


----------



## Umbran (Sep 25, 2014)

ggroy said:


> Are you planning to play live gigs (such as at a nightclub) ?




Having bought the guitar only a couple weeks ago, I have not made any such plans, no.


----------



## Janx (Sep 25, 2014)

Umbran said:


> Having bought the guitar only a couple weeks ago, I have not made any such plans, no.




It's all good.  My goal was to get good enough for the backyard BBQ.  Play a few songs at a friend's party and then eat.

I ended up playing in a jazz ensemble.  I guess it worked out.


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## Umbran (Sep 25, 2014)

Janx said:


> It's all good.  My goal was to get good enough for the backyard BBQ.  Play a few songs at a friend's party and then eat.
> 
> I ended up playing in a jazz ensemble.  I guess it worked out.




If you are happy, then certainly, it worked out!  

For me - I don't know many musicians locally.  I don't think anyone in my social circles plays an instrument.  That's was actually a bit of the draw, actually - it is a bit unique among my friends, and, well, I don't have to worry about being compared to others.  So, unlikely to be getting into a band any time soon


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 25, 2014)

You never know-  your (guitar) hero's journey may inspire others to join you.  Just like in D&D!


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## Janx (Sep 25, 2014)

Umbran said:


> If you are happy, then certainly, it worked out!
> 
> For me - I don't know many musicians locally.  I don't think anyone in my social circles plays an instrument.  That's was actually a bit of the draw, actually - it is a bit unique among my friends, and, well, I don't have to worry about being compared to others.  So, unlikely to be getting into a band any time soon




One never knows.  My musical journey was similar.  But through it, I met people who've become good friends.

In any event.  Just keep practicing.  You need to get good enough to Filk.


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## Umbran (Sep 25, 2014)

Janx said:


> In any event.  Just keep practicing.  You need to get good enough to Filk.




Yep.   My wife has a number of musician friends who attend the Ohio Valley Filk Festival.  We even went as a tail end of our honeymoon.  While they are very welcoming there, it can seem a bit awkward when neither of us perform.  If I can whip out a guitar in a circle every now and again, it'd be a more fun trip.

Got myself a cheapo guitar strap yesterday.  Some of my difficulty in fingering seems to have been alleviated by not having to hold up the neck of the guitar.  The balls of my middle and ring fingers still tend to mute strings, but it easier to find a position that doesn't, which is good.

Something in my head just clicked last night about using a pick.  I was strumming with a pick way too hard, causing strings to buzz.  Found the right pressure, and it works much better now.

I find I like playing the E-phrygian scale more than the chromatic.  Not because is it shorter, or easier, it is just... more fun.

My local Guitar Center apparently has a rank-beginner class for free on Saturday morning.  If I have gumption enough to be up that early, I may go.


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## Janx (Sep 25, 2014)

Umbran said:


> Yep.   My wife has a number of musician friends who attend the Ohio Valley Filk Festival.  We even went as a tail end of our honeymoon.  While they are very welcoming there, it can seem a bit awkward when neither of us perform.  If I can whip out a guitar in a circle every now and again, it'd be a more fun trip.
> 
> Got myself a cheapo guitar strap yesterday.  Some of my difficulty in fingering seems to have been alleviated by not having to hold up the neck of the guitar.  The balls of my middle and ring fingers still tend to mute strings, but it easier to find a position that doesn't, which is good.
> 
> ...




guitar solos tend to be made from the interesting scales like Phyrigian.  Remember, you can move that scale.  Set the starting point to the 5th fret on the E string, and now it should be A-Phrygian because A is the note at the 5th fret on the E string.


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## Umbran (Nov 5, 2014)

So, I've been quietly plunking away at practice.  My desire to do a half-hour *every* day has given way to practical reality, unfortunately.

However, there is a plus - lessons.  A local folky/indy cafe/music/arts venue offers classes, and my wife got me a round of them as an anniversary gift.  First lesson is today.   We'll see how it goes....


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 5, 2014)

Woot!


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## Janx (Nov 5, 2014)

keep it up.

Thanks for the update, I was thinking of pinging this thread actually, just to see how you were doing


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## Zaukrie (Nov 5, 2014)

Am also going to start  lessons


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## Umbran (Nov 5, 2014)

I don't have the time to go from work, to home, get my guitar, and go to my lesson.  So, I brought my guitar with me to work.  Which makes it a conversation starter....

And I now may have a line on an acoustic guitar.  Someone at work also plays, and has her own electric and acoustic.  She also has an acoustic that her father has left with her for years, with no apparent care to ever play it again.  She thinks she's going to ask her dad if he cares if she hands it off to someone else, meaning me.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 6, 2014)

Free gear!


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## Umbran (Nov 6, 2014)

The first lesson went well.  The teacher's pretty organized - we already have all the music for the course, and she'll be e-mailing around mp3s of examples of her playing and singing along with the various songs we'll be working with.  She has a good policy for those who have to miss a class - she'll do phone calls to go over the basics of the class with you, so you don't fall too far behind, and is open to calls with questions before 9 PM on weeknights.

The teacher's nice.  A little... hippy-dippy (which is understandable, given the venue), and fairly chatty (which is probably a good thing, in that as beginners our fingers are not up to an hour-plus of solid playing).  There are four students in the class, and the overall atmosphere is very no-pressure. 

We covered (in no particular order), the chromatic scale (which was actually the last thing we touched on), A, E, and D-major chords, to construct the background for Amazing Grace.

Got a mnemonic for the strings that, due to the presentation, I won't be able to forget - Every Acid Dealer Gets Busted Eventually.  This was relevant because it lead to an "Aha!" moment.

Most of the online and book lessons I have seen may mention the string names in passing to start, but then move on to using numbers.  This is a practical approach, as what the student probably wants to learn is which finger goes on what string on which fret.  If you number the strings, you can say, "First finger, second string, third fret" and the student knows what to do.  If you said, "Index finger, A-string, third fret," the student has to think more.

This teacher continued to talk string names.  And I went, "Oh, wait!  So the chord is named for the lowest note in the chord!"  (I know, this is not strictly true - it is merely true for the forms of the chords we are being taught so far).  This ends up being useful for me to know where to start strumming.  Later, when dealing with six-string chords, this won't hold any more...


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 6, 2014)

Nice mnemonic! 

And it sounds like a good class.  I've never taken group lessons for guitar, but in orchestra and in my guitar circle, group learning was the thing.  It can be BERY BERY goot way to lurn.


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## Janx (Nov 6, 2014)

Umbran said:


> The first lesson went well.  The teacher's pretty organized - we already have all the music for the course, and she'll be e-mailing around mp3s of examples of her playing and singing along with the various songs we'll be working with.  She has a good policy for those who have to miss a class - she'll do phone calls to go over the basics of the class with you, so you don't fall too far behind, and is open to calls with questions before 9 PM on weeknights.
> 
> The teacher's nice.  A little... hippy-dippy (which is understandable, given the venue), and fairly chatty (which is probably a good thing, in that as beginners our fingers are not up to an hour-plus of solid playing).  There are four students in the class, and the overall atmosphere is very no-pressure.
> 
> ...




Every Adult Dog Growls, Barks, Eats is also good.

And yes, the lowest note in the chord is essentially the root note.  When playing power chords, that's where you are anchoring your index finger.

When a song's key is set, that's likely the lowest note.

When you play a scale for a solo for a song in a key, that's the root note for the scale.

For chords, where it won't hold anymore that the lowest note is the root is because the notes wrap around.  And because of that, lower versions of the same valid notes for a given chord can be used (rather than always choosing higher ones than the root).

This becomes more obvious when you learn what notes are in a scale for a given key (how to compute that), and then see those notes can be hit from all over, relative to the root note.  This becomes the shopping list of what notes to can be used for a Chord.

What I did to help reinforce the notes and numbered positions was an mental exercise when I was laying in bed waiting to fall asleep (the musical equivalent of counting sheep).

visualize the guitar neck from the headstock to the 12th fret (the 12th fret is just a repeat from the top, so ignore it for now).

Now go through the EADGBE to identify which string is which.  This helps reinforce what string to pluck when somebody says "A String or Play a D.")

Then, mentally identify where each note is on each string.  Start with the big fat E string (string 1).
E is open
F is 1
F# is 2
G is 3
G# is 4
A is 5
A# is 6
B is 7
C is 8
C# is 9
D is 10
D# is 11
E is 12

Notice how E/F and B/C are adjacent (no Sharp/Flat between them).  That's important as it forms an important component of what notes are in scales relative to what key you are in.

Also notice how Fret 5 is A, which is the next string.  When you perform the count-down on the A string, you'll see how D is at the 5th fret.

Anyway, if you work through that exercise every night, you'll know where everything is on the fret board when somebody calls out to do something.  On Bass, this is very handy, because I can look at the Chord progression of a song, and just bang out those notes on a 4-count and play along while keeping time without really knowing anything else.  All because I know where the notes are.


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## Zaukrie (Nov 6, 2014)

Every adventurer digs gold before emeralds. You guys call yourself gamers?


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## Umbran (Nov 6, 2014)

Zaukrie said:


> Every adventurer digs gold before emeralds. You guys call yourself gamers?




But emeralds are worth more per unit weight than gold!  Silly adventurer!


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## Zaukrie (Nov 6, 2014)

Maybe I should make that electrum.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 6, 2014)

So...how's it twangin'?


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## Umbran (Dec 6, 2014)

Twangin' is goin'.  Slowly.

I had a work-related trip to San Francisco (had to miss a lesson), and then a nasty cold, Thanksgiving, and my Mother-in-Law visiting.  Then my wife picked up the cold....

It has been a few weeks where finding time to practice has been difficult.  It showed in my latest lesson, as there are some chords I just can't do yet if I'm not looking at my diagrams.  The world has calmed down some, so I am trying to catch back up.

While In SF, I had an evening with nothing to do.  I decided to take the opportunity to visit the local Guitar Center (I had brought my papers from class, and could actually practice there with a borrowed instrument).

I have to give a shout-out to the staff - I made it clear to the salesman right off that I was an out-of-towner, taking advantage of how they'll let you noodle with guitars as much as you'd like, and how he wasn't getting a sale form me.  He still spent about 20 minutes with me, going over acoustic guitar construction, the general price classes and the differences in sound at each level.  It was a nice primer, really useful for considering future purchases.

And the fact that they'll let you pick up a $1500 instrument and just play it?  Kind of intimidating


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 6, 2014)

GC has many detractors, but they have their good points, too, often overlooked.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 9, 2015)

How goes your experiments in guitarrorism?


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## Janx (Jun 10, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> How goes your experiments in guitarrorism?




Indeed.  It is time for a status report.


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## Umbran (Jun 10, 2015)

As I last reported, it was going slowly.  I was having a hard time getting my hands to just go to a given shape of chord with any speed.

Then, I had to set it aside for a while.  There was a period of financial and personal stress, such that I couldn't responsibly pay for lessons, and trying to practice on my own was *damnably* frustrating.  I found that while I can amiably fail and keep at it when times are good, doing so when worried about mortgage payments... not fun.

New job, reduced stress, and I picked it up again a week and a half ago.  It is back to being amiable failure, which is good.  I still have very fond feelings for the physical instrument, which is awesome.  Unfortunately, the place I was going for lessons doesn't offer them over the summer.  So, I'm looking for other sources.

Ultimately, not a whole lot of progress on this front.


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## Janx (Jun 10, 2015)

Umbran said:


> As I last reported, it was going slowly.  I was having a hard time getting my hands to just go to a given shape of chord with any speed.
> 
> Then, I had to set it aside for a while.  There was a period of financial and personal stress, such that I couldn't responsibly pay for lessons, and trying to practice on my own was *damnably* frustrating.  I found that while I can amiably fail and keep at it when times are good, doing so when worried about mortgage payments... not fun.
> 
> ...




That's a bummer that real life got in the way, but I'm glad for you that things are better now.

What all have you learned so far?  Best thing to do is keep plugging away on that, so you keep what you do know in the noggin.

I haven't played in a year or so, but I still could fumble my way through:
when I come around
7 nation army
the beginning to SOaD's Hypnotize
Used to Love her


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 10, 2015)

Even when not taking lessons, I have found that there is something relaxing about sitting down and strumming out some chords I enjoy hearing.


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