# Eberron novel line. Any standouts?



## AdmundfortGeographer (Dec 15, 2006)

The Eberron novel line has been around long enough that there are many authors taking a go at the setting.

I've been holding out on reading much (I grabbed the first two Keith Baker novels, that's all) that has been published. I'm curious if there are any Eberron novels out that truly are worth getting, for any reason whatsoever. Great story, great take on something old, great characters, great character portrayals, talented writing, great expose on some part of the world, great execution of "fantasy noir"... whatever.

What can people recommend?


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## HeavenShallBurn (Dec 15, 2006)

I've gotten several and read significant parts of the rest, and my conclusion is Keith Baker's novels are the best of the lot(If you're interested the third one is out now).  Whatever you do don't bother with the Mark of Death books It'll be money wasted on a waste of paper.  I read the first and thought it was quite bad, but I figured he might get better so I got the second.  It was even worse.  I'm not going near the third.


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## dravot (Dec 15, 2006)

HeavenShallBurn said:
			
		

> I've gotten several and read significant parts of the rest, and my conclusion is Keith Baker's novels are the best of the lot(If you're interested the third one is out now).  Whatever you do don't bother with the Mark of Death books It'll be money wasted on a waste of paper.  I read the first and thought it was quite bad, but I figured he might get better so I got the second.  It was even worse.  I'm not going near the third.




I've read the first two Baker books, and they're very good, and HeavenShallBurn has it right about the Mark of Death books.  I read the first one and it was horrible.

I've read the following Eberron books:

The Binding Stone (Don Bassingthwait) 
The Grieving Tree (Don Bassingthwait) 
(_These two are probably the best books I've read in the Eberron world.  I cannot recommend them highly enough. _)

The Crimson Talisman (Adrian Cole) - some fun ideas, and it visits some neat places, but I found it to be merely ok/good enough.

The Orb of Xoriat (Edward Bolme) - a very good book.  Almost as good as the Bassingthwait books.  Also recommended.  This is part of a loose series with the Crimson Talisman - all books about ancient evil/artifacts etc, but different stories/characters/situations.

Claws of the Tiger (James Wyatt) - next in the series, and I've just started it.  So far the first 55 pages are pretty good.    

I also have Voyage of the Mourning Sun, but haven't read it yet.  That leaves 10 more books (ignoring the Forbeck books) for me to pick up.  I'd better get cracking.


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## MojoGM (Dec 15, 2006)

HeavenShallBurn said:
			
		

> Whatever you do don't bother with the Mark of Death books It'll be money wasted on a waste of paper.  I read the first and thought it was quite bad, but I figured he might get better so I got the second.  It was even worse.  I'm not going near the third.




I have to disagree on this.  I read all three and enjoyed them throughly.


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## MojoGM (Dec 15, 2006)

I read all three Baker Books.  I thought they were very good.

The Don Bassingthwait books I have but have not read yet.

Enjoyed all 3 Mark of Death books.

Crimson Talisman didn't blow me away...it was ok.

I liked Voyage of the Midnight Dawn, thought it was really good.

Also, read Thieves of Blood after reading a short story in Tales fromt the Last War.  It was really good and I'm really looking forward to more from this author (Tim Waggoner)

Just started Orb of Xoriat, good so far.

That's all I got.


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## Kralin Thornberry (Dec 15, 2006)

The Binding Stone and The Grieving Tree by Don Bassingthwait are very good and I would recommend them.  I just picked up the 3rd yesterday, and should have it read by next weekend.


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## dravot (Dec 15, 2006)

MojoGM said:
			
		

> I have to disagree on this.  I read all three and enjoyed them thoroughly.




But there's a difference between enjoying and calling them 'good'.    

I thought that they weren't good, nor were they enjoyable.

The first book felt like the guy had a checklist of Eberron elements that he needed to use in order to fullfill his writing contract.  It was sad.


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## MojoGM (Dec 15, 2006)

dravot said:
			
		

> But there's a difference between enjoying and calling them 'good'.
> 
> I thought that they weren't good, nor were they enjoyable.
> 
> The first book felt like the guy had a checklist of Eberron elements that he needed to use in order to fullfill his writing contract.  It was sad.




That's what I liked about them.  What can ya say? Different strokes and all that...  

I'm pretty easy to please fiction-wise, though there were a few FR books that I didn't make it to the end of (and didn't care enough to).


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Dec 15, 2006)

I don't mind folks debating the relative merits of particular books, but rather than volleys of "It's bad" "no, it's great", I would like to see proponants and detractors at describe what quality in it was appealing or repellant. A good discussion will help me decide what to get next.

So, carry on!


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## dravot (Dec 15, 2006)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> I don't mind folks debating the relative merits of particular books, but rather than volleys of "It's bad" "no, it's great", I would like to see proponants and detractors at describe what quality in it was appealing or repellant. A good discussion will help me decide what to get next.
> 
> So, carry on!




The Baker books are the best at evoking the Eberron feel that I'm interested in (as a DM and player).  The characters are decent, and the situations are fun and interesting.  Characters growth is minimal (Baker's weakest point, I think), but they are unique and interesting.

The Bassingthwait books are also good at the Eberron feel.  His badguys feel evil in a way that Baker's don't.  He sets up terrific scenes and set-piece events, and the characters are strong and unique, and have some element of character growth.  These books feel the most to me like an actual campaign (in a good way).  Plot is fairly linear, but moves along nicely, so it's not a drawback.

The Bolme book that I read is also good at the Eberron feel.  Strongest characters of any Eberron book I've read.  Lots of interesting ideas.

The Adrian Cole book had a few good ideas, and visited some fun places, but was the weakest in terms of character development.  Heck, weakest for characters in general.  He likes to have people refer to each other by their profession, which got real tiresome really quickly ("Pass the salt, cleric."  "Your shoes are untied cotton-candy-maker."  etc.   :\  )

The Forbeck book that I read was weak in character development.  Everyone was pretty much one dimensional, no growth or insight.  All of the Eberron elements felt like a checklist ("Dragonmarks?  Check.  Mourning Lands?  Check.  Warforged?  Check.  Carcass Crab?  Check."), but no real feel for what Eberron is.  It felt to me like he skimmed the Eberron sourcebook for 20 minutes and then wrote his story, which involved the characters getting into one ridiculous event after another.

How'd I do?


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## Kesh (Dec 15, 2006)

I've read the first two of Keith Baker's books, and the first _Mark of Death_ novel.

Keith's books are extremely evocative and have characters I actually care about. He does a very good job of visualizing what the world is like, how people behave and why these characters are risking their lives adventuring. Each character has a complex personality, and it affects the story & other characters.

In contrast, the first _Mark of Death_ book didn't appeal to me. The characters were somewhat bland, especially as the lead protagonist reminded me of X-Men's Cable character: annoyingly grim, depressed and fighting alone because he didn't trust anyone else. Plus, the characters kept making very bad choices, not because it was a character flaw, but because the story would have been over halfway through the novel if they didn't. There were a few redeeming scenes, but overall it felt forced to me.


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## BadMojo (Dec 15, 2006)

Another vote for the Keith Baker books.  I'm re-reading the first one and it's great stuff.

Tim Waggoner's book is also very good.  It takes place in the Lhazaar Principalities, so it has a different feel than the books set in Sharn or on the mainland.  Also has characters who have that "shades of gray" missing in a lot (but definitely not all) other Wizards fiction.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Dec 15, 2006)

dravot said:
			
		

> How'd I do?



*Very* helpful! Thanks!


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## dravot (Dec 24, 2006)

dravot said:
			
		

> Claws of the Tiger (James Wyatt) - next in the series, and I've just started it.  So far the first 55 pages are pretty good.




I finished Claws of the Tiger and found it to be quite enjoyable.  One key plot point rested on an Eberron specific rule which I'd considered using in my very rarely played campaign, so to me that plot point was obvious from 10 miles away, but that's ok by me.

I was impressed by some of the character interactions and their philosophical discussions on the nature of good and evil.  While not up to the standards of Locke and Hobbes, it worked well within the context of the story.  Kudos to Mr. Wyatt.

And let me tell you, that as one of the ECS writers, James Wyatt knows his Eberron.  I definitely felt like I got to know the world a little bit better.


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## Klaus (Dec 24, 2006)

Regarding Mark of Death (spoilers within):

[sblock] It's very very bad. Characters change attitude at a coin's toss. The paladin-lady knows and is amusing that the lead protagonist is talking the dumb jailor to hand over the key to the paladin-lady, so she can have the authority to release lead character and doggy-shifter. But as soon as that happens, she becomes antagonistic to lead character and won't release him, even though the village is being attacked by vampires.

The paladins are very unpaladin-like, and very un-charismatic, even though they should (as paladins) have high Charisma. They are also very very dumb, insisting on burying dead comrades in the middle of the Mournlands. And nevermind the fact that for a religion that worships the Silver FLAME, cremation would be a logical means of putting the dead to rest.

Even though they've been a staple of the setting for 30 years, the sudden appearance of warforged has everyone spooked and confused. Oh noes! What's this?

The lead character protects an elf girl like a daughter, even though he's human and she's probably older than him by about a century. Yet she behaves just like a human child.

Everyone has an easy time piloting an airship, even though no one has the Mark of the Storm.

A crazy deathless elf living inside the Mournland? And she dispatches the (at that point) main antagonist off screen? Talk about a deus ex machina!

The changeling psion had no reason to *be* a psion. Being the second novel set in Eberron, it'd stand to logic that the book should be as iconic of the setting as possible. Either have the psion be a kalashtar or Inspired, or have the changeling be a rogue/sorcerer.

A frickin' CITY of warforged walking about the Mournlands, and the Lord of Blades isn't there? How many cities *does* he have?

This are just *some* of my problems with Marked For Death. I never picked up the second one. [/sblock]


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## Klaus (Dec 24, 2006)

dravot said:
			
		

> I finished Claws of the Tiger and found it to be quite enjoyable.  One key plot point rested on an Eberron specific rule which I'd considered using in my very rarely played campaign, so to me that plot point was obvious from 10 miles away, but that's ok by me.
> 
> I was impressed by some of the character interactions and their philosophical discussions on the nature of good and evil.  While not up to the standards of Locke and Hobbes, it worked well within the context of the story.  Kudos to Mr. Wyatt.
> 
> And let me tell you, that as one of the ECS writers, James Wyatt knows his Eberron.  I definitely felt like I got to know the world a little bit better.



 This ain't no spoiler:


Plus it has someone actually casting Leomund's Secure Shelter! That's neat!


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## shilsen (Dec 24, 2006)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Regarding Mark of Death (spoilers within):




Wow! That sounds not just bad, but very dumb as well.

I shall consider myself significantly forewarned. Thanks.


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## dravot (Dec 24, 2006)

shilsen said:
			
		

> Wow! That sounds not just bad, but very dumb as well.
> 
> I shall consider myself significantly forewarned. Thanks.




Klaus is wise.  I might have written much of the same in my review if I could remember how to do the spoiler tags


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## Klaus (Dec 24, 2006)

sblock, /sblock, dude! Words to live by!


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## dravot (Dec 28, 2006)

I just finished _Voyage of the Mourning Sun_ and found it to be overall very good.  I have some minor annoyances, but for the most part, it was quite enjoyable.

Good characters, with interesting interactions and philosophies, and lots of travel.  I'm ready to get out a map of Eberron and put a pin in for every place one of the novels has visited.    

The downsides are pretty small: no one seems to trust each other, yet there isn't (IMO) a compelling reason for them to stay together - the glue is weak, if you will.  Also, people seem to hold onto secrets for far longer than felt necessary.  These flaws aren't overwhelming, and thus easy to overlook.

There will be 2 more books in the series.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Dec 28, 2006)

I wanted to thank you for updates and new mini-reviews of these books as you finish them.  I'm paying attention as I look for my next books.  I've started the Don Bassingthwait series right now.


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## Klaus (Dec 28, 2006)

Let us know what you think of the first book, The Binding Stone. I still have to get the other two, and Keith Baker's third novel.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Dec 28, 2006)

Before getting to _The Binding Stone_ I had a detour to the Warhammer line and finished _Death's Legacy_ (third book after _Death's Messenger_, and _Death's City_) by Sandy Mitchell. Before that I had just finished Keith Baker's third book.  I enjoyed it a lot. It feels like a logical extension of the previous books, so if you enjoyed the prior books you should enjoy the third just as much. Also, it seems clear that more books are planned in the series.

I'm a stickler for world-building and cosmology-building, and in those areas there were some twists in the book that some might have objections to, I believe. I believe that the twists were foreshadowed, or at least hinted at as possibilities, in the Eberron Campaign Sourcebook.


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## Duncan Haldane (Dec 31, 2006)

I've read the first few Eberron novels, and far too many FR and DL ones ;-)

Keith Baker's are good, but his lack of novel writing experience shows.  I look forward to seeing him improve his writing.

Don Brassingtons were excellent.  Characters were provocative, consistent, believable.  There's even an element of possible homosexuality in the books, which is alluded to, but not focused on or spelt out - deliberate, considering their audience, IMO.  Far more mature than the usual D&D novel, without being too adult or over the top.

I will read more of Keith's but I really look forward to reading Don's. 

Duncan


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## Klaus (Dec 31, 2006)

Duncan Haldane said:
			
		

> I've read the first few Eberron novels, and far too many FR and DL ones ;-)
> 
> Keith Baker's are good, but his lack of novel writing experience shows.  I look forward to seeing him improve his writing.
> 
> ...



 Huhthewha-?


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## The Human Target (Jan 4, 2007)

The Binding Stone (Don Bassingthwait)
The Grieving Tree (Don Bassingthwait) 

Those are two I've read so far, I've got the third in my pull box at my local comicbook store.

There pretty good DnD books in general, and seem to grasp the Eberron flavor nicely.

My main gripe is the psionic character. Not only is she kinda boring, but she really is a terrible psionicist. She seems more like a second edition "psionics aren't a class" psion. She pretty much only does three things. Its like my problem with R.A. Salvatore and his clerics/mages. The don't feel like actual DnD characters.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jan 4, 2007)

The Human Target said:
			
		

> My main gripe is the psionic character. Not only is she kinda boring, but she really is a terrible psionicist. She seems more like a second edition "psionics aren't a class" psion. She pretty much only does three things. Its like my problem with R.A. Salvatore and his clerics/mages. The don't feel like actual DnD characters.



I'm only through the first book. But the psionic character is really not something you would be able to create using the rules. I'm not expecting her to do much due to her nature. (I'm trying to avoid spoilers.) If there would be something to criticise is that she's so far outside what can be done in the rules.

And, :\ , I'm not seeing the subtle homosexuality Duncan seems to have observed.


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## The Human Target (Jan 5, 2007)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> I'm only through the first book. But the psionic character is really not something you would be able to create using the rules. I'm not expecting her to do much due to her nature. (I'm trying to avoid spoilers.) If there would be something to criticise is that she's so far outside what can be done in the rules.
> 
> And, :\ , I'm not seeing the subtle homosexuality Duncan seems to have observed.



 It bother me even more because we so rarely see a psionic character in DnD fiction, and now that we have one she's pretty far off the mark.

My kingdom for a psion that seems to have power points!


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## Graf (Jan 5, 2007)

I picked up a few Eberron books. I didn’t like any of them actually.
Personally if you’re looking for good ideas and stories you should pick up strong fantasy-fiction (GRRM, Mieville) or read some of the better story hours (Sep, Destan, Piratecat)

KB’s books (I’ve read the first two) aren’t very strong as fiction. The characters are a bit simplistic and the interest is derived more from the situations and events that they face. These are interesting but not really thematically linked in a useful manner.
They are decent for introducing people to Eberron, but they also violate a lot of Eberron tenets a bit unnecessarily. Warforged are immune to Mind Flayer mind-blasts, a House Canith character gets to _deactivate construct_ with her dragonmark in the introduction and the power never turns up again, despite it’s obvious power and utility in later scenes.
You very much get the sense that the world shifts and changes to match the needs of the plot.

The Claws of the Tiger had better characterization. I had hopes because I think Wyatt has very strong creative chops.
But it really felt like a short story that went on for too long. The “big surprise” was agonizingly transparent, which was OK, but he just went on and on repeating the same few scenes (‘elves see something with super human vision” “main character agonizes about wife”).
After a while you are going “elves don’t –have- super human vision” and “the main character couldn’t possibly be this stupid; and if he is Elvin wizard buddy can’t be…”
Then they’re the big reveal and the payoff isn’t worth it.
And the wife’s characterization was terrible. She’s the main plot point, really, she gets a massive amount of “screen time” but she comes off more as some kind of living saint, devoid of any personality beyond “perfect wife & priestess”.
It would have been a decent-to-very-good short story.
But, like with the Baker books, you felt that they were just working to try to make the characters “get from point D to point F”.

That’s not to say that the books were terrible. It’s just that people without significant writing experience need a lot of time, lots of drafts and a very strong editor before they can turn out first rate work.


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## BadMojo (Jan 8, 2007)

Graf said:
			
		

> I picked up a few Eberron books. I didn’t like any of them actually.
> Personally if you’re looking for good ideas and stories you should pick up strong fantasy-fiction (GRRM, Mieville) or read some of the better story hours (Sep, Destan, Piratecat)




I've nearly finished Keith Baker's second Dreaming Dark book and I've really enjoyed it.  I don't know if it's entirely fair to compare his books with two of best fantasy authors (IMO) out there today.

GRRM and Mieville also have a lot more space to develop characters.  The Song of Ice & Fire books all hover around 1000 pages and "Perdido Street Station" is at least double the word count of "City of Towers".

Anyway, Paul Crilley's story in the Eberron anthology was excellent and it seems he has another Eberron book on the way called "Night of Long Shadows".

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/eberronnovel/959367400


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## Duncan Haldane (Jan 12, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Huhthewha-?




Don is openly gay (on a gaymer list I'm on), and I got the feeling that the shifter and his companion were "more than just good friends"

If you think it's possible, and re-read the start of the first book, you'll see what I mean.


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## Hellcow (Jan 12, 2007)

I'm the first to say that I'm not on the same scale as GRRM or Mieville. The Dreaming Dark books are my first novels, and I've learned a LOT from each one. I've also received some very useful criticism and feedback from the boards. Fictionwise, don't expect _Song of Ice & Fire_ from my Eberron books. 

However, I _do_ know Eberron, and do my best to adhere to the rules of D&D. If you take a scene like Lei fighting the minotaur, I can tell you exactly what infusions she used to accomplish it. With that in mind...



			
				Graf said:
			
		

> A House Canith character gets to _deactivate construct_ with her dragonmark in the introduction...



No, she doesn't. The scene is on page 4 of _The City of Towers_. She touches a warforged, concentrates, and destroys him. This has nothing to do with her dragonmark, and glancing at it, I don't see anything indicating that it does. It's stated that "Since she was a child, she had been taught to weave these webs, to create magical artifacts and bring life to the lifeless." 

This isn't about her dragonmark. A dragonmark is an innate power. This is about her _trained_ skill - in other words, the fact that she is an artificer. 

Meanwhile, the power used isn't _disable construct_; it's simply _inflict damage_. She touches the warforged and inflicts enough damage to destroy him. _Inflict Moderate Damage_ or _inflict serious damage_ are both sufficient to accomplish this task. 



			
				Graf said:
			
		

> ...and the power never turns up again, despite it’s obvious power and utility in later scenes.



Actually, she uses it again on page 299-300 of _City of Towers_, and she also uses it multiple times in _The Shattered Land_ and _The Gates of Night_.  

I can see a possible point of confusion being that she fails to completely destroy the warforged in question when she uses this infusion a second time in CoT. However, this is no different than a mage killing the first-level character with a magic missile and then failing to kill the sixth-level character using magic missile later on. She can inflict a certain amount of damage to warforged by touch. In the first instance this causes destruction; the second warforged has more HP and is merely incapacitated. 



			
				Graf said:
			
		

> Warforged are immune to Mind Flayer mind-blasts...



This is a misunderstanding, and it's certainly a flaw in my description of the scene. But it's never stated that they are immune. The precise phrase is that "the warforged were largely unaffected by the mental assault." This wasn't intended as a blanket statement about all warforged in the world, but rather a specific statement about the warforged in the room, who were, _*largely*_, unaffected. Meaning that _they made their saving throws_. It is possible for ANY creature to resist mind flayer mind blasts, warforged or not. The second attack against Pierce isn't actually a mind blast; it's a targeted effect against him which would normally cause paralysis. I'd have to refer to the XPH to recall what power I had in mind, but again, Pierce resists it (and warforged ARE immune to paralysis).  But, of course, if the scene is confusing, that is my fault. 

So, I'm the first to admit that my WRITING has lots of room for improvement, and that's something I'm working on every day. If I could match GRRM on my first novel, I'd be amazed.  But while I admit that the DD trilogy isn't the _best_ fantasy in the world, I certainly try not to "unnecessarily violate a lot of Eberron tenets."


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## Duncan Haldane (Mar 22, 2007)

Hope you don't mind me reprising an old thread - been unable to get to the boards for a couple of months, and wanted to check if anyone had responded to my posts.  Having read Keith's post...



			
				Hellcow said:
			
		

> I'm the first to say that I'm not on the same scale as GRRM or Mieville. The Dreaming Dark books are my first novels, and I've learned a LOT from each one. I've also received some very useful criticism and feedback from the boards. Fictionwise, don't expect _Song of Ice & Fire_ from my Eberron books.
> 
> However, I _do_ know Eberron, and do my best to adhere to the rules of D&D. If you take a scene like Lei fighting the minotaur, I can tell you exactly what infusions she used to accomplish it. With that in mind...




Keith, have you ever wondered if you should be supplying a "D&D script" with a novel, listing what is done when?  At least it might save you some grief 

In my reading of D&D fiction there are a few authors that don't seem to come close to the rules.  Ed Greenwood comes to mind - too often in his books I knew someone was casting a spell, but I had no idea what it was after seeing the effects.  

I'm not saying this is a good or a bad thing, it just is.  

Duncan


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## WayneLigon (Apr 3, 2007)

I'm starting my first Eberron campaign (we had the first session this past Friday), and one of the players went out and bought all the Eberron novels in existane. As he gets done with one he loans it to me and so forth.

So far I've read the _Dragon Below _ series, _Blood and Honor_, and I just started on _Claws of the Tiger_.

So far, I've enjoyed everything I've read a great deal, especially _Blood and Honor_. The main thing I'm impressed with over other game fiction I've read in the past is that there is so far nothing, nothing I've seen the characters do that the PC's in my game could not do. So many other books I've read (or more accurately 'attempted to read') fell down on this point, usually giving the characters outlandish special powers or weapons that most PC's would never see. I can usually tell what spell or ability someone is using, and it flows naturally with the story I'm reading. I don't get the sense of being jarred out of a novel and into reading a session writeup.

The main reason I've been reading these is to get a sense of the world and how characters move in it and react to it. These books have been invaluable to me for that.


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## Crothian (Apr 3, 2007)

I'm also reading them to get a feel for the setting.  The book of Short Stories was very hit and miss.  Writers I'd heard of were the hits. 

I'm just 100pgs into City of Towers and so far it is pretty good.  It has the feel of a PC group in that they are kind of randomly attached to each other by circumstance and just manage to get their way through it.  I like the use of the infusions in the book and I hope the artificer PC has read it.  If not I'm suggesting he does.

I read the first book in the Dragon Below series (Binding Stone).  I found it by far more interesting plot wise then any of the others and like how it deals with areas the RPG books really suck at covering.  

I also read the first in the Lost Mark (Marked for Death).  I really like the idea behind the lost mark making a come back but I feel the writer had no real idea how to pull together a coherent 300page story.  It reads like a bunch of random encounters practically and the characters are just not all that great.  But it is a series I will complete by getting the books from the library.


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## BadMojo (Apr 3, 2007)

The Human Target said:
			
		

> The Binding Stone (Don Bassingthwait)
> The Grieving Tree (Don Bassingthwait)




I just finished reading "The Binding Stone" recently and really enjoyed it.  It stayed true to the setting and the mechanics of D&D but not in a way that you could "hear the dice rolling".  The characters were interesting and nuanced.

I actually thought the Psion was one of the more interesting characters in the book.  I'll definitely be reading the rest of the series.  Good stuff!


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## Randolpho (Apr 6, 2007)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> The Eberron novel line has been around long enough that there are many authors taking a go at the setting.
> 
> I've been holding out on reading much (I grabbed the first two Keith Baker novels, that's all) that has been published. I'm curious if there are any Eberron novels out that truly are worth getting, for any reason whatsoever. Great story, great take on something old, great characters, great character portrayals, talented writing, great expose on some part of the world, great execution of "fantasy noir"... whatever.
> 
> What can people recommend?



 Here's my .02 GP:

I've only read the Dreaming Dark trilogy, and found it to be superior in most aspects to every other D&D-setting fiction that I've ever read, the sole exception being the original Dragonlance series.

Here, have some salt.

The Dreaming Dark trilogy was not what I would consider well-crafted fiction. It had some interesting moments, but they were not really part of the fiction so much as interesting facts about the setting and/or Warforged. The plot and its "twists" read like an epic D&D adventure -- a very cliched one. All the characters were cliched, right down to the red-haired green-eyed Mary Sue leading lady and the swordsman with a past, and Baker killed off the only one that came remotely close to being interesting. The endings of each book were less than satisfying, the ending of the final book triply so. I firmly believe that Baker simply ended them because he didn't know what to do next. 

Not that I can do much better, mind.

On the whole, the books were interesting for exposition of the setting and as game/idea fodder -- and I would recommend them as such -- but not as fiction.


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## Crothian (Apr 14, 2007)

Well, Lei was far from a true Mary Sue.  She was a plot device for sure, but she couldn't do everything.  I just finished the trilogy this week and it just had too many character mysteries and too many things left unanswered.  Also, while well written there was too much in the book that is not in the RPG.  As the first trilogy ity should have been an example of what the RPG is and not have so much depend on things not in the game.


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## Meloncov (Apr 14, 2007)

Has anyone read the Last War short story compellation?


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## Crothian (Apr 14, 2007)

Ya, I read those.


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## shaylon (Apr 14, 2007)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Well, Lei was far from a true Mary Sue.  She was a plot device for sure, but she couldn't do everything.  I just finished the trilogy this week and it just had too many character mysteries and too many things left unanswered.  Also, while well written there was too much in the book that is not in the RPG.  As the first trilogy ity should have been an example of what the RPG is and not have so much depend on things not in the game.




Keith announced on his blog that he will be revisiting these characters to tie up loose ends in the future.  I am with you; I wanted to see more resolution.

I really enjoyed the series but the story could have been managed a little better.


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## Hellcow (Apr 16, 2007)

Randolpho said:
			
		

> I firmly believe that Baker simply ended them because he didn't know what to do next.



First off, if that's the way it comes across, that's the way it comes across - nothing I say will change that. _The Dreaming Dark_ books were my first novels, and I'm the first to say that I learned a vast amount with each one... and that if I could do it over, I'd do many things differently, especially the end of book three. 

With that said, I certainly knew where the story was going from begining to end, and I know exactly where it will go next. I know now that it was a mistake to leave as many things hanging as I did. However, the situation in the epilogue isn't intended to be a random "What the %&$^ is going on" scenario. The events leading up to the epilogue are set in motion all the way back in _City of Towers_; it's a convergence of things spread throughout the series, not a random "Let's end with a weird twist!" 

But of course, if the average reader doesn't SEE that, that's my fault as a writer... and I'm the first to admit that I played my cards too close to the chest. I have seen people post who've figured out what's going on - but the number who are just confused by it shows that it's flawed.   



			
				Crothian said:
			
		

> Also, while well written there was too much in the book that is not in the RPG.



This is a valid concern. There are a few things that immediately jump to mind, such as a certain very unusual warforged character. You can easily say "If I was making a PC, how would I make that character?" to which the answer is "By the current rules, you can't." The main thing is that I wrote it as I'd run it. With characters with unusual backgrounds, that is how I'd run it - with the PC finding out more about his or her background along the way, and having to learn what it means. So it's a question of style of play. Taking a character like Harmattan or Hydra, there's no existing template for them, but I know how I'd use them in my campaign. 

Likewise, I did come up with stats for the characters. I can pretty much tell you the game definition of anything Lei does, and it's all within the scope of a 7th-10th level artificer (as things progress). A critical point on Lei is that she uses _spell storing item_ a LOT; if it looks like she can do "anything", it's because it's an extremely versatile infusion. Off the top of my head, I remember her using it for _glitterdust, haste, shocking grasp, cure wounds, daylight,_ and _dimension door_, but I'm sure I've forgotten a lot of things. 

Likewise, Lakashtai uses psionic abilities quite often without announcing "I'm using _psionic suggestion_." She uses _psionic charm, psionic suggestion, brain lock_, and a bunch of other powers along the way. But it often plays as "people find themselves mysteriously doing what she says" as opposed to her proclaiming "DO WHAT I SAY!" 

Anyhow, there's certainly a few things that extend beyond the rules, no question. But if I'm not directly basing an action on the rules, I at least try to make sure I know how it would work. If you're curious about a specific thing and can ask about it without major spoilers, I'm happy to explain how I'd translate it to tabletop... though I recognize that many of the stranger things are tied to spoilers.


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## Crothian (Apr 16, 2007)

The Warforged for me where the biggest things that where in the novel but not in the RPG.  The other is the Spoiler 



Spoiler



stolen Dragonmarks that get stored in vials and the other weird things going on with those guys


 spoiler ends.  It's not that it is a bad thing, but as the first trilogy for the setting I can see people reading the books and then looking towards the RPG to see how it is all done.  It was a fine set of stories and I do like how the events that started in City of Towers reach all the way till the end.

I finished the The Grieving Tree today and liked it.  I think it helps that they are exploring areas and countries the RPG books haven't really covered.


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## WayneLigon (Apr 17, 2007)

I finished _Orb of Xoriat _ today. It was a very good book, though I disagree somewhat with the ending. Though I can see why it was done that way. I really did like the characters a great deal, and we get to see a lot of Flamekeep in it. The same guy is writing the first book in _The Inquisitives _ series which I think comes out this month (if it's not already out).


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## jonathan swift (Apr 17, 2007)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> I finished _Orb of Xoriat _ today. It was a very good book, though I disagree somewhat with the ending. Though I can see why it was done that way. I really did like the characters a great deal, and we get to see a lot of Flamekeep in it. The same guy is writing the first book in _The Inquisitives _ series which I think comes out this month (if it's not already out).





I saw it today and almost picked it up but our local Booksamillion is horribly run and checking out would have taken too long and made me late for plans. I'll pick it up soon though.


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## Hellcow (Apr 18, 2007)

Crothian said:
			
		

> It's not that it is a bad thing, but as the first trilogy for the setting I can see people reading the books and then looking towards the RPG to see how it is all done.



It's certainly a valid concern, Crothian. Looking to the example you quoted, there isn't any existing way to do the thing described using standard rules. Of course, the ECS DOES actually provide one way to accomplish even this outlandish thing... the _eldritch machine_. 

Eberron seeks to capture some of the mood of the pulps. A key aspect of the pulps is villains coming up with bizarre schemes that generally aren't replicated again. When the cerebrozombificon is destroy, the villain turns up next week with an entirely different scheme; he doesn't just try to build another one somewhere else. The _eldritch machine_ is the tool for those stories - for the DM who wants to introduce something that doesn't quite fit the rules, but makes a great story. Say I want Demise to target Sharn with a device that causes any living creature killed in the city to rise as a zombie. If it's destroyed, she can't rebuild it, because "it used a Qabalrin crystal pendant as its core, and that was the last one in existence." Bingo - _eldritch machine_.

So in the example you call out, it's not supposed to be something anyone can do. It's not supposed to become a core concern of the setting. It's a bizarre and disturbing technique developed by that individual - and something he may or may not be able to do again in the future. If I HAD to explain how it was done in game, I'd say that the "crystal bath" was an _eldritch machine_ - and hopefully, it's gone for good. 

So I agree - it's not clear to the reader what it is, and it is outside of the scope of what a PC could do. However, given the restrictions we see - it's bound to a specific location, requires unusual components, etc - If you wanted to use it in your campaign, I'd call it an _eldritch machine_.


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## Klaus (Apr 18, 2007)

Hellcow said:
			
		

> It's certainly a valid concern, Crothian. Looking to the example you quoted, there isn't any existing way to do the thing described using standard rules. Of course, the ECS DOES actually provide one way to accomplish even this outlandish thing... the _eldritch machine_.
> 
> Eberron seeks to capture some of the mood of the pulps. A key aspect of the pulps is villains coming up with bizarre schemes that generally aren't replicated again. When the cerebrozombificon is destroy, the villain turns up next week with an entirely different scheme; he doesn't just try to build another one somewhere else. The _eldritch machine_ is the tool for those stories - for the DM who wants to introduce something that doesn't quite fit the rules, but makes a great story. Say I want Demise to target Sharn with a device that causes any living creature killed in the city to rise as a zombie. If it's destroyed, she can't rebuild it, because "it used a Qabalrin crystal pendant as its core, and that was the last one in existence." Bingo - _eldritch machine_.
> 
> ...



 You DO realize you are now obligated to write up the cerebrozombificon, don't you?

I'm having a hard time reading this thread, since I haven't read Gates of Night yet and I must skim the posts with my peripheral vision to make sure there's no spoilers.


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## Randolpho (Apr 24, 2007)

I only just now noticed this post:



			
				Hellcow said:
			
		

> First off, if that's the way it comes across, that's the way it comes across - nothing I say will change that. _The Dreaming Dark_ books were my first novels, and I'm the first to say that I learned a vast amount with each one... and that if I could do it over, I'd do many things differently, especially the end of book three.




Wow... Keith Baker, I presume? That'll teach me to spout off online; you never know when you'll actually get answered! 

Look, please take what I said with a hefty piece of salt. I actually very much enjoy Eberron as a gaming setting, especially Sharn and Warforged. I even broke my own long-standing rule against fanfic for Eberron. Not that it's any good, mind, but I always swore I wouldn't write fanfic. I broke that rule because I enjoyed one game I was in so much that I wanted to bring my PC and some of the other PCs to life, so I wrote a short story about her. Funny thing -- I ended up liking what I did with one of the other PCs so much that it's slowly turning in to a novel about him instead. Go figure. 

As I reflect back on the problems I had with your novels, I realize that my problem was really that your books read too much like playing a game of D&D. I realize from stuff you've mentioned here that such was your goal, and obviously you have a pretty strong market for such a book. It's just not my style, I guess... maybe I'm wired wrong. 



> But of course, if the average reader doesn't SEE that, that's my fault as a writer... and I'm the first to admit that I played my cards too close to the chest. I have seen people post who've figured out what's going on - but the number who are just confused by it shows that it's flawed.




I'd very much like to know what you were going for with the epilogue of the third book.


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## Crothian (Apr 24, 2007)

Hellcow said:
			
		

> So I agree - it's not clear to the reader what it is, and it is outside of the scope of what a PC could do. However, given the restrictions we see - it's bound to a specific location, requires unusual components, etc - If you wanted to use it in your campaign, I'd call it an _eldritch machine_.




Thanks!  I admit I was looking at the novels too much like an RPG and I forgot the pulp story aspects they possess.


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## Crothian (Apr 24, 2007)

Randolpho said:
			
		

> Wow... Keith Baker, I presume?




Just to confirm so everyone knows

Hellcow = Keith Baker


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## Hellcow (Apr 25, 2007)

Randolpho said:
			
		

> Wow... Keith Baker, I presume?



Teach me not to have a signature set up. Thought I did.



			
				Randolpho said:
			
		

> Look, please take what I said with a hefty piece of salt.



Fair enough. With that said, I have no problem with solid criticism. I have learned a great deal from each novel, and I've had some very helpful feedback from people. Again, something may make perfect sense to ME, but if it doesn't come across to the reader, it needs work. With _Gates of Night_, I'm very happy with how Thelanis came out, but the epilogue was a mistake. 



> It's just not my style, I guess... maybe I'm wired wrong. .



Not at all. You're right, it was what I was aiming for, because as a D&D novel I felt I should hold as close to the game as I could. But that is a specialized style, and it's not going to be to everyone's tastes. 



> I'd very much like to know what you were going for with the epilogue of the third book.



As I said, in retrospect, the book would probably have been better off without it. Without giving TOO much away, here's what I was going for. 

I look at this as a season of a TV show. The main story arc of this season was the conflict with the Dreaming Dark. By the end of the season, that story arc is resolved. However, the story of the CHARACTERS hasn't come to an end. I already know what I'd do with season two. It's a story based on what has come before, and that deals with the unresolved issues brought up in this series. I never intended to answer EVERY question; some issues are resolved, some remain open.

The epilogue specifically addresses something that's set in motion in the first book, and which would form the backbone of the plot for the next book. Without giving it away, I'd suggest the following (spoiler-blocked):


Spoiler



Look closely at Daine's interaction with the Draconic eidolon.
Can you tell me: Who was responsible for Jode's death?
How did Daine get his dragonmark? Why? Who benefits from it?


As I said, some people out there have hit on the answer. But I think the cliffhanger was too extreme; if I'd just left it at the final chapter, it would still leave questions open, but wouldn't shove it in the reader's face.


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## Asmor (Jun 18, 2007)

I'm not sure if under 2 months counts as a thread resurrection, but I apologize for it all the same... Just finished Gates of Night today and posted something and Crothian gave me a link to this thread.

I actually read City of Towers as an Eberron primer, and it worked out wonderfully for that purpose. It also just so happens that I haven't read a novel in many, many years... so I don't have much to compare it to. That said, I enjoyed the trilogy quite a lot. I wasn't thrilled with Thelanis, but it wasn't bad. My only real complaint is the ending, the epilogue in particular, but it seems you've already heard about that... Actually, the main reason I'm posting is that it's nice to know that the author feels it should have been done differently... It gives me an odd sense of closure.

Oh, and also when I went to Barnes and Nobles today to get my next book I was quite disappointed to find that you didn't have anything else to your credit... So don't take any of my criticisms too harshly


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## Mikaya (Jul 19, 2010)

*Dreaming Dark Trilogy*

I wasn't fully hooked into Eberron until a friend of mine bought the campaign book, and it had an exerpt from City of Towers. I was hooked! I absolutely adored the characters and the plotline, and quickly snatched up the first two books, then went on a massive hunt for the third, bought recently on eBooks and finished in under a week, then re-read again a few weeks later for sheer enjoyment! 

Ok, praise aside, I did have a question, though honestly I'm a little timid to put it down. I'm honestly awe-struck that Keith Baker posts here, and I'm delighted to have a chance to ask this, if you don't mind answering: Is there any chance we'll see Daine, Lei, and Peirce in the future in other stories? I'd love to read any more of their adventures!


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## Asmor (Jul 19, 2010)

Mikaya said:


> Ok, praise aside, I did have a question, though honestly I'm a little timid to put it down. I'm honestly awe-struck that Keith Baker posts here, and I'm delighted to have a chance to ask this, if you don't mind answering: Is there any chance we'll see Daine, Lei, and Peirce in the future in other stories? I'd love to read any more of their adventures!




I obviously can't speak for future stories, but there is a story featuring them in them in the Eberron anthology... I think the title of the anthology is something like "Tales of the Last War."


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## Klaus (Jul 19, 2010)

Mikaya said:


> I wasn't fully hooked into Eberron until a friend of mine bought the campaign book, and it had an exerpt from City of Towers. I was hooked! I absolutely adored the characters and the plotline, and quickly snatched up the first two books, then went on a massive hunt for the third, bought recently on eBooks and finished in under a week, then re-read again a few weeks later for sheer enjoyment!
> 
> Ok, praise aside, I did have a question, though honestly I'm a little timid to put it down. I'm honestly awe-struck that Keith Baker posts here, and I'm delighted to have a chance to ask this, if you don't mind answering: Is there any chance we'll see Daine, Lei, and Peirce in the future in other stories? I'd love to read any more of their adventures!



I'll try and point Keith to this question.


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## Hellcow (Jul 19, 2010)

Mikaya said:


> Ok, praise aside, I did have a question, though honestly I'm a little timid to put it down. I'm honestly awe-struck that Keith Baker posts here, and I'm delighted to have a chance to ask this, if you don't mind answering: Is there any chance we'll see Daine, Lei, and Peirce in the future in other stories? I'd love to read any more of their adventures!



Hi Mikaya!

The reason Gates of Night ends the way it does is because I have ideas for lots of stories I'd like to tell about the characters. I'd still like to tell those stories; it's simply a question of whether there will be an opportunity to do so through Wizards, and if not, if there's any way I can tell them on my own. So the short answer is that I don't know, but I hope so. With that said, if you haven't read the Thorn of Breland books yet, you may want to check them out; you may find the answers to a few hanging questions from The Dreaming Dark resolved there.


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## Desdichado (Jul 19, 2010)

Dark•Heritage: The Crimson Talisman

Dark•Heritage: The Orb of Xoriat

Dark•Heritage: In the Claws of the Tiger


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## Mikaya (Jul 25, 2010)

Hellcow said:


> Hi Mikaya!
> 
> The reason Gates of Night ends the way it does is because I have ideas for lots of stories I'd like to tell about the characters. I'd still like to tell those stories; it's simply a question of whether there will be an opportunity to do so through Wizards, and if not, if there's any way I can tell them on my own. So the short answer is that I don't know, but I hope so. With that said, if you haven't read the Thorn of Breland books yet, you may want to check them out; you may find the answers to a few hanging questions from The Dreaming Dark resolved there.




I most certainly will! Thanks for the advice, and I'm thrilled to hear that there's at least a hope for future adventures with my three favorite Eberron characters! *hurries off to google Thorn of Breland*



Asmor said:


> I obviously can't speak for future stories, but there is a story featuring them in them in the Eberron anthology... I think the title of the anthology is something like "Tales of the Last War."




I actually already have that one, lol! I really liked the story with Daine, Lei, Peirce, and Jode in it. I honestly think I've read it about a dozen times already.


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## megamania (Jul 25, 2010)

Geth and his storyline are awesome.

I am enjoying Thorn's stuff also as I do a lot with the Dark Lanterns myself.


As for the other books... I'm trying to get full sets so as to read them from beginning to end.   I may be E-Baying to do this.


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