# Roll20's Latest Numbers: Cthulhu Holding Strong!



## DaveMage (Feb 20, 2021)

Kudos to the D&D 5E team - what an amazing hit.

PF2 seems to be struggling to convert over PF1E fans.


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## Marc_C (Feb 20, 2021)

Year Zero Engine on the rise! 
(Mutant chronicle, Aliens, Coriolis, Forbidden Lands, Tales from the Loop).


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## Aldarc (Feb 20, 2021)

DaveMage said:


> Kudos to the D&D 5E team - what an amazing hit.
> 
> PF2 seems to be struggling to convert over PF1E fans.



Apparently Roll20 is not the recommended online platform for PF2, which I believe is Fantasy Grounds.


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## LabyrinthLord718 (Feb 20, 2021)

^ This. I use Fantasy Grounds Unity.


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## lud (Feb 20, 2021)

DaveMage said:


> PF2 seems to be struggling to convert over PF1E fans.




I would have a different hypothesis.

*The Foundry effect. (Foundry Site)*

PF1 continues its steady declines in usage share on Roll20. In the previous quarters you can see PF2 slowly converting PF1 games. The lost PF2 games in Q4 2020 either don't exist or they are elsewhere.

ORR group data 2019-2020​

YearQuarter2nd1stTotal2019Q26.46%6.46%2019Q30.57%5.72%6.29%2019Q41.13%4.97%6.10%2020Q11.23%4.49%5.72%2020Q21.53%4.09%5.62%2020Q31.83%3.87%5.70%2020Q4*1.58%*3.69%*5.27%*

I think they are elsewhere.  

If the loss was due to PF2 people going back to PF1 then total number of PF games would go up, it is down by 0.43% at 5.27%. And they didn't go in mass to D&D5, its share is also lower this quarter (53.26% to 52.90%, 0.36% loss for D&D 5 vs 0.25% loss for PF2)

It is anecdotal, but in the 3 groups I play/DM, _everyone_ who tried PF2 is a convert. We run 4 games in the 3 groups and in the next months 3 of them are going to be PF2. The last one is an ongoing D&D 5e Ravenloft campaign. The only critics I have heard about PF2 is that the mechanics are too tight and don't allow you to create "super" build like the previous systems (3.5/PF1/5e) and that spell casters are not gods... 



Aldarc said:


> Apparently Roll20 is not the recommended online platform for PF2, which I believe is Fantasy Grounds.




The most common answer to people looking for a VTT for PF2 by  the community is *Foundry*. The level of integration of the PF2 ruleset is above anything else at this time. There is even a module that will import your official adventure path PDF in your world. Add to this all the generic Foundry add-ons and you have a Roll20 killer for a PF2 group.

Let's not forget they have access to all the rules, class features, spells, monsters, magic items for free from the SRD. (There is no Paizo  paywall for data unless you want to resale it. If you are not familiar with it : Archives of Nethys)

{Anecdotal} I have transferred the two PF2 campaigns I run from my _paying _Roll20 account to Foundry. There is a learning curve, but like the transition to PF2, everyone is really impressed.


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## Morrus (Feb 20, 2021)

Yeah, from what I hear PG2 folks are using Foundry, not Roll20.


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## Jimmy Dick (Feb 20, 2021)

PF2 GMs are moving to Foundry en masse for many reasons. Thanks to being told at the Community Roundtable that Roll20 is not and will not be producing the latest AP Abomination Vaults along with a charactermancer that is still not completed with no release of it in sight, I finally got tired of paying the subscription. Now that I see they are forcing everyone to move to the U(which in my opinion stands for underdeveloped)DL I am not regretting this choice. 

I have some learning to do on Foundry, but that's how the ball rolls. The community on Foundry is pretty impressive and I think that is a very important element.


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## Ibrandul (Feb 20, 2021)

Nice to see DSA growing so much on the Roll20 platform. I'm sure German games account for almost all of that growth, but it gives me a glimmer of hope that The Dark Eye might still find a foothold in the English-speaking world.


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## techno (Feb 20, 2021)

Yeah, PF2 players are mostly on Foundry now and they haven't published these kinds of stats by game system (that I am aware of).


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## CapnZapp (Feb 20, 2021)

Aldarc said:


> Apparently Roll20 is not the recommended online platform for PF2



I sure hope so.


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## imagineGod (Feb 20, 2021)

With those statistics, is there any point in any new system like The One Ring, despite is financial victory on Kickstarter, when it is still its 5th Edition version that players will eventually settle into.


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## Morrus (Feb 20, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> With those statistics, is there any point in any new system like The One Ring, despite is financial victory on Kickstarter, when it is still its 5th Edition version that players will eventually settle into.



Obviously there are people buying and playing The One Ring. You don't have to be McDonalds (the most popular restaurant chain in the world) to open an awesome, successful restaurant which people use and enjoy.


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## Lanefan (Feb 20, 2021)

Question: are those stats just reflecting paid accounts, or are they reflecting everyone who uses roll20 whether paid or not?


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## Morrus (Feb 20, 2021)

Lanefan said:


> Question: are those stats just reflecting paid accounts, or are they reflecting everyone who uses roll20 whether paid or not?



I’m not sure. I’d assume it was 8 million people who have ever used it, but at the end they say “Our 8 million users play so many incredible games on Roll20, every day. If you’re one of our recent subscribers: Welcome!”

That implies that it’s 8 million people playing every day, which is astonishing. I suspect that’s free users as well as subscribers.


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## Ibrandul (Feb 20, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I’m not sure. I’d assume it was 8 million people who have ever used it, but at the end they say “Our 8 million users play so many incredible games on Roll20, every day. If you’re one of our recent subscribers: Welcome!”
> 
> That implies that it’s 8 million people playing every day, which is astonishing. I suspect that’s free users as well as subscribers.



Yeah, I don't think that could possibly be the real number of daily players. Whether it's 8 million total users ever or 8 million active users (however active would be defined) makes a big difference, of course, but either way, it can't possibly be 8 million different users playing on Roll20 on a given day. That would imply a total active user number many times higher than 8 million, because the vast majority of players don't play every day.

And that sentence is a slippery one. To me it reads like it's crafted to give the impression you got, but without unambiguously stating that as fact. To me it reads like this: "Our 8 million users play games on Roll20! How many games do they play? So many! How often are games played on Roll20? Every day!"


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## Phenomen (Feb 20, 2021)

Aldarc said:


> Apparently Roll20 is not the recommended online platform for PF2, which I believe is Fantasy Grounds.



Foundry VTT is a way to go for PF2 games. It has much more automation + good UI + completely free SRD of every single PF2 supplement and adventure with pre-made tokens (creatures), items, spells, etc.


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## Morrus (Feb 20, 2021)

So apparently they measure user accounts ever  (not subscriptions) but don’t including deleted, cancelled, spam or duplicate accounts. They don’t share active user numbers.


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## TwoSix (Feb 20, 2021)

Nice to see 5e still doing well.  I think it might have some legs.


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## Blue Orange (Feb 20, 2021)

Morrus said:


> So apparently they measure user accounts ever  (not subscriptions) but don’t including deleted, cancelled, spam or duplicate accounts. They don’t share active user numbers.




I guess what that would mean, practically speaking, is that this would be a _lagging indicator_; if a whole bunch of people joined to play Game X (for example) and left, their numbers would still be counted. So it would be most useful to look at what new games pop up since the last report, or what games have increased significantly in size.

I'd also love to know what's in the 'uncategorized' category, but I guess there's no way to tell!


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## Jimmy Dick (Feb 20, 2021)

Let's just say that the Orr Report's methodology wouldn't stand up to academic scrutiny and reflect actual game play. It instead reflects what they want it to show.


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## Retreater (Feb 20, 2021)

Yeah. I've been playing a few Pathfinder 2 games on Roll20 this weekend. When I made up my character (with paid access to the Rulebook and Compendium) I couldn't even drop in a shortsword to attack with ... like I had to write every feature and trait in the attack section.
Frankly, it's absurd this feature isn't even available for paid accounts when I purchased the compendium access for $60. This game system has been out for a year and a half. That something like this is missing shows Roll20 doesn't care about Pathfinder. Whenever it's not required to use Roll20, I will take my Pathfinder games elsewhere.


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## lud (Feb 21, 2021)

Long term view:





D&D is the sum of 3.5, 4e and 5e.
PF is the sum of PF1 and PF2.

It's a shame we don't see how high D&D 5 peaked before going down. Nor do we see the raise of CoC.

Anyone knows why Q3 2019 is the CoC quarter?

We can also see the slow lost of shares of 4e, 3.5 and PF1 at a constant rate for the past 6 years.  (Or not so slow for 4e)
The release of PF2 managed to stabilize the PF games total except for this quarter (but see my post on the first page...)


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## Morrus (Feb 21, 2021)

lud said:


> Anyone knows why Q3 2019 is the CoC quarter?



That was their Critical Role appearance at the end of July of that year.


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## lud (Feb 21, 2021)

Morrus said:


> That was their Critical Role appearance at the end of July of that year.




Paizo should have hired them for the launch of their second edition!


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## Blue Orange (Feb 21, 2021)

Amusing to see 4e below both the earlier and later editions. They goofed with that one!


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## Blue Orange (Feb 21, 2021)

Crazy question: I see what look like French and German games; do Chinese people play RPGs? (I mean, obviously some do; what's the scene like over there?) I assume they'd have their own platforms and the like rather than using Roll20...


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## bedir than (Feb 21, 2021)

Kind of buried, but D&D5e was the 11th listed "biggest campaign growth" with nearly 5%. A seven-year old system continues to expand and expand and expand


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## jerryrice4949 (Feb 21, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> With those statistics, is there any point in any new system like The One Ring, despite is financial victory on Kickstarter, when it is still its 5th Edition version that players will eventually settle into.



Whether a lot of people play it or not, it is drawing in a lot of revenue.  Kind of reminds me of 7th Sea.  I expect a lot more people are buying the books than will ever actually play.  But the only thing that matters is people are happy with the purchase.


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## darjr (Feb 21, 2021)

lud said:


> Paizo should have hired them for the launch of their second edition!



They gave Matthew Mercer a special cover book signed by very many people from Paizo. I think, but do not know, they would have asked then.


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## darjr (Feb 21, 2021)




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## Michael O'Brien (Feb 21, 2021)

Blue Orange said:


> I'd also love to know what's in the 'uncategorized' category, but I guess there's no way to tell!



The 'Uncategorised' category is home brew stuff. The 'Other Games' are quite literally all the other games.


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## lud (Feb 21, 2021)

Michael O'Brien said:


> The 'Uncategorised' category is home brew stuff. The 'Other Games' are quite literally all the other games.




And this includes games that _are not RPGs_.

We use Roll20 to play a space battle wargame using the hex grid, an image of a star field and the appropriate tokens. We can even turn the ships to they face the proper hex side.


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## Aldarc (Feb 21, 2021)

jerryrice4949 said:


> Whether a lot of people play it or not, it is drawing in a lot of revenue.  Kind of reminds me of 7th Sea.  *I expect a lot more people are buying the books than will ever actually play.*  But the only thing that matters is people are happy with the purchase.



Which is the case for all TTRPG books. What TOR has over AIME is that it's a system created from the ground up to support the tone and feel of questing in Tolkien's Middle Earth and from all accounts I've read it does so marvelously.


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## jerryrice4949 (Feb 21, 2021)

Aldarc said:


> Which is the case for all TTRPG books. What TOR has over AIME is that it's a system created from the ground up to support the tone and feel of questing in Tolkien's Middle Earth and from all accounts I've read it does so marvelously.



Agreed.  But in my community I know lot of people who bought 7th Sea and few who ever got a game off the ground.  So there are degrees.


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## Aldarc (Feb 21, 2021)

jerryrice4949 said:


> Agreed.  But in my community I know lot of people who bought 7th Sea and few who ever got a game off the ground.  So there are degrees.



Same. I know a number of fans of the first edition of 7th Sea here in Austria that were disappointed with the end result of the second edition. They backed it thinking it would play mostly the same, but weren't too pleased with the differences once they got their hands on the books.


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## ShinHakkaider (Feb 21, 2021)

Pretty sure that Matt Mercer STARTED his campaign using Pathfinder 1e (hence Percy being a gunslinger which at the time had no equivalent in 5e as well as the mention of some Golarion based deities early on in the recorded games) and switched over to 5e for ease of use for his players.


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## MNblockhead (Feb 21, 2021)

techno said:


> Yeah, PF2 players are mostly on Foundry now and they haven't published these kinds of stats by game system (that I am aware of).



Foundry wouldn't be able to. They sell the software, they don't host it.

Some of the hosting providers like The Forge might be able to.


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## Loren the GM (Feb 22, 2021)

jeremypowell said:


> Yeah, I don't think that could possibly be the real number of daily players. Whether it's 8 million total users ever or 8 million active users (however active would be defined) makes a big difference, of course, but either way, it can't possibly be 8 million different users playing on Roll20 on a given day. That would imply a total active user number many times higher than 8 million, because the vast majority of players don't play every day.
> 
> And that sentence is a slippery one. To me it reads like it's crafted to give the impression you got, but without unambiguously stating that as fact. To me it reads like this: "Our 8 million users play games on Roll20! How many games do they play? So many! How often are games played on Roll20? Every day!"




They talk a little about this in their most recent community round table:  Relevant timecode is at about 41:52. Also a bit more at 45:40.

They have 8.4+ million accounts. They had a record amount of simultaneous players during Gen Con 2020, over 100,000 players concurrently. They hosted over 2000 of the 7000 Gen Con events on Roll20. And then in November they beat that record with over 300,000 players online concurrently.


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## TheSword (Feb 22, 2021)

Hang on a second. Are we honestly saying the second largest ttrpg company can’t get Roll20 to provide modules for PF2 yet tiny companies like Cubicle 7 can?

My understanding from talking from people working on WFRP4e was that it’s the publishers that produce the modules (in conjunction with Roll20) and character sheets and roll20 then host them? Or is this not the case?

It’s a pretty sad state of affairs if the PF2 team is choosing not to support the largest TTRPG company.

I mean I have and like Foundry in some regards, but I can’t believe that needing to pay $50 up front for software. Plus find and pay a hosting service, then upload your module work is a particularly efficient way of recruiting new players!


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## BigZebra (Feb 22, 2021)

I think it is Roll20 that is doing all the conversion. In the last roundtable, Roll20 said they are working on the Trouble in Otari module, but that they aren't working on Abominations Vault, and if users would like to see that they should let them know.


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## TheSword (Feb 22, 2021)

BigZebra said:


> I think it is Roll20 that is doing all the conversion. In the last roundtable, Roll20 said they are working on the Trouble in Otari module, but that they aren't working on Abominations Vault, and if users would like to see that they should let them know.



Interesting so it may just be that they aren’t getting enough requests. Even sadder.

Whatever you think about Roll20’s functionality it has a massive audience and is a great way of getting people in. Even if they move to a different platform. Foundry will be a definite barrier to entry.


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## Morrus (Feb 22, 2021)

TheSword said:


> Interesting so it may just be that they aren’t getting enough requests. Even sadder.
> 
> Whatever you think about Roll20’s functionality it has a massive audience and is a great way of getting people in. Even if they move to a different platform. Foundry will be a definite barrier to entry.



Competition is great for everybody.


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## dave2008 (Feb 22, 2021)

ShinHakkaider said:


> Pretty sure that Matt Mercer STARTED his campaign using Pathfinder 1e (hence Percy being a gunslinger which at the time had no equivalent in 5e as well as the mention of some Golarion based deities early on in the recorded games) and switched over to 5e for ease of use for his players.



IIRC it started with D&D 4e, switched to pathfinder, and then switched to D&D 5e.  FYI, the wikipedia page, Critical Role Wiki, agrees with my memory.

That is why almost all of the gods are from the 4e Dawn War pantheon. 

*Critical Role Major Deities*

4e Dawn War PantheonPF Golarion PantheonAvandra, the ChangebringerSarenrae, or Raei, the EverlightBahamut, the Platinum DragonCorellon, the Arch HeartErathis, the LawbearerIoun, the Knowing MentorKord, the StormlordMelora, the WildmotherMoradin, the AllhammerPelor, the DawnfatherThe Raven Queen, the Matron of DeathSehanine, the MoonweaverAsmodeus, the Lord of the Nine HellsBane, the Strife EmperorGruumsh, the RuinerLolth, the Spider QueenTharizdun, the Chained OblivionTiamat, the Scaled TyrantTorog, the Crawling KingVecna, the Whispered OneZehir, the Cloaked Serpent


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## Lanefan (Feb 22, 2021)

Blue Orange said:


> I'd also love to know what's in the 'uncategorized' category, but I guess there's no way to tell!



I guess someone like me would have been until this week, when I finally bothered to note my preferred game system in my profile (before that it was blank).

I'm not sure what if anything our DM has our games categorized as, or whether being a player in those games pulls me into that categorization by default.


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## univoxs (Feb 22, 2021)

I have been a Roll20 user for a long time, I think since beta. My tables have been using Roll20 exclusivley for the last year for obvious reasons. I was able to get some people together, outdoors, to play a miniature table top game (Rangers of Shadow Deep) for the first time in a year and oh man, I did not even realize how much I missed in person play.


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## Sunsword (Feb 22, 2021)

Over 4% growth for 5E is incredibly impressive this late into its life cycle.


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## lud (Feb 22, 2021)

Sunsword said:


> Over 4% growth for 5E is incredibly impressive this late into its life cycle.




With 4% they actually lost ground since the global growth is 6% (They are down to 52.9% of campaigns), but yes it is impressive.

What is even more impressive is D&D 3.5 that manages to gain some ground with its 6% growth! (They are up from 1.01% to 1.02%)


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## Tyler Pickering (Feb 23, 2021)

DaveMage said:


> Kudos to the D&D 5E team - what an amazing hit.
> 
> PF2 seems to be struggling to convert over PF1E fans.



I don't know if I would judge Roll20 numbers for PF2E support. Join the Foundry VTT discord and you'll see how many people are there playing PF2E. Roll20 IMO is trash.


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## BRayne (Feb 23, 2021)

dave2008 said:


> IIRC it started with D&D 4e, switched to pathfinder, and then switched to D&D 5e.  FYI, the wikipedia page, Critical Role Wiki, agrees with my memory.
> 
> That is why almost all of the gods are from the 4e Dawn War pantheon.




Yeah 4e start (hence Dragonborn and Goliath PCs). Gunslinger is explained by Taliesin playing a different character in the one shot, Marisha  and Ashley (Sarenrae cleric) also were not playing, Marisha acting as "assistant DM" helping explain rules and such and Ashley just not there yet. Though with regards to mention of Golarion deities, Emon's trade district is named after Abadar so it might be that the Dawn War pantheon wasn't in place in the home game and they just hadn't dived deeply enough into non-Sarenrae gods at that point for it to matter that it was changed.


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## Salicus (Feb 23, 2021)

These Stats show what I have been telling friends who play PnP online all the time. Roll20 is really great if you want to play DnD.
Everything else they just dont really care about too much. Starfinder on Roll20 for example still has the mention of an upcoming Charactermancer on the Store-page and Pathfinder 2 as well. But they are not developing it at the moment. I began playing PnP online on Roll20 but Foundry is much better imho. Also if you really want to play Pathfinder you could also just go over to Fantasy Grounds. It has high upfront cost but they are really fast in adopting adventure paths and so on. you can see that publishers also think that foundry is the way to go: Cubicle7 got a great guy working on implementing Modules into foundry, which you can buy in their webstore. Ulisses also got DSA5 implemented first into foundry purchaseable at the webstore with all the stuff you need to start an adventure. 
As much as I like Roll20 I just dont think that it will hold against the selfhosted stuff like Foundry for Fantasy Grounds in the long run.


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## TheSword (Feb 23, 2021)

lud said:


> With 4% they actually lost ground since the global growth is 6% (They are down to 52.9% of campaigns), but yes it is impressive.
> 
> What is even more impressive is D&D 3.5 that manages to gain some ground with its 6% growth! (They are up from 1.01% to 1.02%)



It’s an 2.4%!increase on their share since Q1 2020 when the pandemic hit.

Their share dropped by 0.3%, after gaining let’s not pretend this is a major shift.

They grew by 4.8% vs a 5% overall growth. Again hardly trend breaking.


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## Nylanfs (Feb 23, 2021)

Smiteworks just released their stats since the last time also. Kinda hard to tell when the pandemic social distancing started. /s









						Fantasy Grounds Game System Usage - 2020 Q4
					





					www.fantasygrounds.com


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## LordEntrails (Feb 23, 2021)

lud said:


> The most common answer to people looking for a VTT for PF2 by the community is *Foundry*. The level of integration of the PF2 ruleset is above anything else at this time. There is even a module that will import your official adventure path PDF in your world. Add to this all the generic Foundry add-ons and you have a Roll20 killer for a PF2 group.





techno said:


> Yeah, PF2 players are mostly on Foundry now and they haven't published these kinds of stats by game system (that I am aware of).



Maybe, but PF 1 & 2 grew by about 300% on FG last year.


TheSword said:


> It’s a pretty sad state of affairs if the PF2 team is choosing not to support the largest TTRPG company.



Largest? I assume you mean VTT? Depends on how you measure it. Orr Group is notorious for misleading stats that are not supported well. Since all the VTTs are privately held and those that do release numbers don't share numbers that are comparable, we really have no idea who is the largest.


Sunsword said:


> Over 4% growth for 5E is incredibly impressive this late into its life cycle.



Except Roll20 is having it's lunch eaten by its competitors. For instance 5E grew by about 400% last year, and ~25% last quarter on FG.


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## TheSword (Feb 23, 2021)

LordEntrails said:


> Maybe, but PF 1 & 2 grew by about 300% on FG last year.
> 
> Largest? I assume you mean VTT? Depends on how you measure it. Orr Group is notorious for misleading stats that are not supported well. Since all the VTTs are privately held and those that do release numbers don't share numbers that are comparable, we really have no idea who is the largest.
> 
> Except Roll20 is having it's lunch eaten by its competitors. For instance 5E grew by about 400% last year, and ~25% last quarter on FG.



Do you have numbers for FG. Even approximates. Otherwise what possible relevance is %growth. If they have 10,000 users then 300% is still a drop in the ocean compared to roll20


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## Morrus (Feb 23, 2021)

TheSword said:


> Do you have numbers for FG. Even approximates. Otherwise what possible relevance is %growth. If they have 10,000 users then 300% is still a drop in the ocean compared to roll20



I do!









						On Fantasy Grounds D&D Increases Dominance To 71%
					

If you thought Roll20's 52% was impressive, on Fantasy Grounds D&D is now 71% of games. Pathfinder (both editions) comes to 13% in second place. These figures are for Q4, 2020.    So here's what D&D (the bright green line) has done since the beginning of 2019. There's am obvious pandemic boost...




					www.enworld.org


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## LordEntrails (Feb 24, 2021)

TheSword said:


> Do you have numbers for FG. Even approximates. Otherwise what possible relevance is %growth. If they have 10,000 users then 300% is still a drop in the ocean compared to roll20



Yes. And note, Roll20 doesn't actually give numbers, only percentages, so there is no way to know if there are 100 or 1 million PF games on Roll20.









						Fantasy Grounds Usage Statistics 2020 Q4
					

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/reports/2020Q4/ Pretty amazing growth last year. And of course a continued dominance of 5E.




					www.enworld.org


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## TheSword (Feb 24, 2021)

LordEntrails said:


> Yes. And note, Roll20 doesn't actually give numbers, only percentages, so there is no way to know if there are 100 or 1 million PF games on Roll20.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the link.

So approx 330,000 sessions in that quarter.  That’s good to put things in perspective. If each online session lasted an average of 3 hours that’s a 1,000,000 hours of game time in the quarter.

By contrast Roll20 saw 106,000,000 hours played across the same period. You can say they’re dishonest about what 8 million users means but you can’t deny they are specific about that statistic.


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## LordEntrails (Feb 24, 2021)

TheSword said:


> So approx 330,000 sessions in that quarter.  That’s good to put things in perspective. If each online session lasted an average of 3 hours that’s a 1,000,000 hours of game time in the quarter.



If. For me, 3 hours seems pretty short. But is that game hours or player/users hours?


TheSword said:


> By contrast Roll20 saw 106,000,000 hours played across the same period. You can say they’re dishonest about what 8 million users means but you can’t deny they are specific about that statistic.



If... But we don't know how they count those hours. If we divide 100 million by  5 players/users, that's 20 mil. Does it include prep time? We know the FG numbers do not. But we don't know the details. 

I wish we had comparable numbers, but we don't. So any conclusions or comparisons are.. assumptions. I know folks love Roll20, and it's a good platform, for some use cases it is the best VTT. But I think it's hard to argue that the Orr group hasn't done questionable things. And for me, that will shadow all my future interactions with them and cast a shadow of doubt on any claims they make.


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## TheSword (Feb 24, 2021)

LordEntrails said:


> If. For me, 3 hours seems pretty short. But is that game hours or player/users hours?
> 
> If... But we don't know how they count those hours. If we divide 100 million by  5 players/users, that's 20 mil. Does it include prep time? We know the FG numbers do not. But we don't know the details.
> 
> I wish we had comparable numbers, but we don't. So any conclusions or comparisons are.. assumptions. I know folks love Roll20, and it's a good platform, for some use cases it is the best VTT. But I think it's hard to argue that the Orr group hasn't done questionable things. And for me, that will shadow all my future interactions with them and cast a shadow of doubt on any claims they make.



Sure fair. Play it’s all extrapolation.

I’m not sure what you mean by questionable things.


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## LordEntrails (Feb 24, 2021)

TheSword said:


> I’m not sure what you mean by questionable things.



I was really trying not to re-discuss those things here as they are only very tangentially related and I assumed they would be known. But if you want to look into them; there was a blow up on reddit about nolant, their were issues that blew up on social media regarding white male gamers, there are other issues around their own forums and how they treat customers, issues about promised features and features being withdrawn, and their are issues about APIs with other applications. In short, for me (everyone should decide for themselves) they exhibit a pattern of corporate behavior that indicates a company I chose not to do business with or trust the claims they make.


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## TheSword (Feb 24, 2021)

LordEntrails said:


> I was really trying not to re-discuss those things here as they are only very tangentially related and I assumed they would be known. But if you want to look into them; there was a blow up on reddit about nolant, their were issues that blew up on social media regarding white male gamers, there are other issues around their own forums and how they treat customers, issues about promised features and features being withdrawn, and their are issues about APIs with other applications. In short, for me (everyone should decide for themselves) they exhibit a pattern of corporate behavior that indicates a company I chose not to do business with or trust the claims they make.



Cool. Thanks for taking the time to catch me up.

I did some research on the Reddit issue/more white male gamers issues and they both aren’t the kind of thing that bothers me. Why a person would kick off about being refused sponsorship is beyond me but you’re right it’s not a worth opening up. I was worried there was allegations of racism but it seems like the opposite.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.


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## Nylanfs (Feb 24, 2021)

One of my gripes with them is the way they shut down ANY discussion of other programs in their forums even if it's constructive criticism attempts to improve the platform.


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## DigestPantheon (Feb 24, 2021)

The growth in Cyberpunk Red is neat to see. Cyberpunk 2077 was a lot of fun on PC and I definitely was more interested in the roleplaying in the setting after it.


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## oknazevad (Feb 27, 2021)

Re PF2 on Roll20, there does seem to be a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation here. On one hand, their support has been relatively poor, leading people to to use other platforms. But that means there's less motive for them to improve their support.


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## CapnZapp (Feb 28, 2021)

oknazevad said:


> Re PF2 on Roll20, there does seem to be a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation here. On one hand, their support has been relatively poor, leading people to to use other platforms. But that means there's less motive for them to improve their support.



I'm assuming Roll20 tries to make money, not provide a community service.

In other words, you have your chicken-and-egg argument backwards!


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## oknazevad (Mar 1, 2021)

CapnZapp said:


> I'm assuming Roll20 tries to make money, not provide a community service.
> 
> In other words, you have your chicken-and-egg argument backwards!



Well, no, they make money by providing a service, and if they don't see a potential for making money (because the user base is too small), then they won't provide that service. But in choosing to not provide that service they are less attractive to potential users, reducing the user base. It becomes a question of who moves first, or it becomes a downward spiral of irrelevance.


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## CapnZapp (Mar 1, 2021)

oknazevad said:


> Well, no, they make money by providing a service, and if they don't see a potential for making money (because the user base is too small), then they won't provide that service. But in choosing to not provide that service they are less attractive to potential users, reducing the user base. It becomes a question of who moves first, or it becomes a downward spiral of irrelevance.



Or they have simply decided focusing their efforts on the customer base of 5E players is more worth their while.

They don't have to provide the service after all. (As I said it's not a community service)


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## darjr (Mar 1, 2021)

Did.... did you just actually have a chicken and egg argument? 

(ok, argument is a strong word)


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## oknazevad (Mar 1, 2021)

CapnZapp said:


> Or they have simply decided focusing their efforts on the customer base of 5E players is more worth their while.
> 
> They don't have to provide the service after all. (As I said it's not a community service)



I don't see how those ideas are in conflict. If Roll20 doesn't see the value in PF2 support in part because 5e support is far more lucrative for them.


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## Emerikol (Mar 2, 2021)

One thing about statistics is there are often unnoticed variables.  I imagine that age of player dictates the likelihood someone plays online.   I would say availability of built in tools might affect players of particular systems.  I'm not saying that most people do not play D&D 5e.  Most do and most are always playing the latest edition of D&D and I don't doubt it.   I am not sure though beyond that fact which I already know, I'm not sure there is a lot more here.   Maybe PF2 is less popular than PF1.


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