# Converting prehistoric creatures



## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

Part Two. 

Original thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 post count.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

We left off working on therapsids.  Do we want to do a smaller gorgonpsid, or move on to a cynodont or dicynodont?


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2008)

Oooph, I'll leave that to demiurge, since I don't really know enough of a difference.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 8, 2008)

Let's do another gorgonopsid, one that's Medium size. Gorgonops, say.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 9, 2008)

According to Wikipedia, Gorgonops was 3-5 meters long, though probably usually closer to 3 meters. That's close to 10 feet, which is still Large. Also according to Wikipedia, the gorgonopsid in Primeval was a Gorgonops.

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm intruding, what with this being my only post and all, but I hold you all in high regard. I'm following this conversion thread because I'm putting together a big book of dinosaur stat blocks for personal use.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

InsanePsychoRabbit said:


> I'm sorry if it seems like I'm intruding, what with this being my only post and all, but I hold you all in high regard. I'm following this conversion thread because I'm putting together a big book of dinosaur stat blocks for personal use.




Not at all!  Please feel free to join in!


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Here's a good Small one:  Lycaenops - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

Hm. I'd like to do a Medium sized one to fill sort of a wolf analogue, but all of the gorgonopsids that have any substantial info on them are either Small or Large. A puzzler.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Ditto here.  I did come across this one to bookmark for later:

Euchambersia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 9, 2008)

I already did Euchambersia for a thread on the WotC forums. I'll repost it here, feel free to butcher it.



			
				Me said:
			
		

> Euchambersia
> Small Animal
> Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp)
> Initiative: +1
> ...




Also if you need help converting 2nd Edition to 3.5 I still have the 2nd to 3rd edition conversion manual lying around, I could potentially help if you need it.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

That looks pretty good, IPR!  Based on the Wikipedia article, I might make the poison nastier (Con damage probably) and maybe add something to indicate the strong jaws (sounds like they hold on, actually, maybe even to inject poison like a gila monster).  Shouldn't take too long with what you've done already!


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 9, 2008)

How about I give it Attach like a dire weasel, and it injects its poison every round it's attached? Also I'll switch its poison to Con damage. That would probably necessitate bumping it up to CR 2.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

That sounds good!


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

Hah. I'm okay with getting side-tracked. If we wanted the poison to get really vicious, we could switch Alertness for Ability Focus.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 9, 2008)

How does this look?

Euchambersia
Small Animal
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+1 size, +1 Dex, +1 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+1*
Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d4 plus poison)
Full Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d4 plus poison)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Attach, poison
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Hide +5, Listen +5, Spot +4
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 3 HD (Small); 4-6 HD (Medium)

_This creature at the same time resembles both a monitor lizard and a dog-like mammal. Its head looks more dog-like, though, due to the whiskers and large fangs. Bristle-like hair sprouts in various places from its rust-brown hide._

Euchambersia was a late Permian therocephalian, a relative of the larger gorgonopsians. Called the viper-wolf by peoples of the land in which it dwells, it is unique in that it has evolved venom for offensive use - to kill its prey.

Combat
Euchambersia waits for prey to come along, then charges in to bite. It usually attempts to hold on to its prey. If threatened by a larger creature, however, it will flee.

Attach (Ex): A euchambersia that hits with its bite attack latches onto the opponent’s body with its powerful jaws. An attached euchambersia loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and thus has an AC of 12. An attached euchambersia can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached euchambersia through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the creature. 

Poison (Ex): Euchambersia's venom is a hemotoxin that damages its prey's internal organs (Fort DC 13, 1d4 Con/1d4 Con). A euchambersia injects venom each round it is attached.

*A euchambersia has a +4 racial bonus on Grapple checks.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

I'd recommend a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks in the attack ability, giving it a positive modifier.

Other than that, it looks good!


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 9, 2008)

Ok, I'll do that. Where does it go when we're done with it?


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

InsanePsychoRabbit said:


> Ok, I'll do that. Where does it go when we're done with it?



Shade puts it in a thread in the homebrews forum (one of the locked ones at the top) for "storage" until he gets a chance to upload it to the official Creature Catalog.  In fact, usually, that's our "working copy" as we change abilities around, etc.

I'm thinking Ability Focus might be a little mean at CR 2.  Anyone else?


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Any idea on the actual height/weight of these things?  I'm having no luck Googling it.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 10, 2008)

When I first created the Euchambersia creature in November 2007 I found a site that said its skull was 24cm long, so based on the pictures I found, I extrapolated it to be about 84cm in length (a bit less than 3 feet).

Shade, be sure to note that in my above post I gave it the Grapple bonus like you suggested and revised its advancement a little.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

I saw the grapple bonus, but moved it into the attach entry like the stirge.

I'll update the Advancement line like yours.

So, 3 feet.  Suggested weight?


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

30-40 lb?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

Sounds good. Agreed that Ability Focus would be mean.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Updated.

Finished?


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Looks good!


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

I'd say so. Now, about that other gorgonopsid...


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Yeah, still no luck on that front.  I thought dinogorgon might fit the bill, but it appears to be "lion sized" on most accounts, and some say it is 10 feet long.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 10, 2008)

Ok, I see that it's written in the Attach entry, but the bonus doesn't seem to be figured into the Base Attack/Grapple line like it says it is (if you add in the racial bonus, the grapple modifier should be +1, not -3). Other than that, I'd say we're done.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

Let's do Lycaeops as a Small one, then.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

InsanePsychoRabbit said:


> Ok, I see that it's written in the Attach entry, but the bonus doesn't seem to be figured into the Base Attack/Grapple line like it says it is (if you add in the racial bonus, the grapple modifier should be +1, not -3). Other than that, I'd say we're done.




Good catch.  Fixed.



			
				demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Let's do Lycaeops as a Small one, then.




Sounds good.  Start with your lycaesaurus stats?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 10, 2008)

Basing Lycaenops off of demiurge's Lycaesaurus...

I'd put the Str and Dex scores at 13 at least. Since it's going to be Small, if we want to keep its Trip-related abilities, I'd also give it a racial bonus to its Trip modifier, since IIRC Trip uses the same size modifier as grapple checks. I might also suggest taking off 1 hit die (retaining Track as a bonus feat).


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 10, 2008)

Sorry for double-posting, but i found a gorgonopsid that might be Medium-sized. According to this posting, Arctognathus was 1.8 meters in length.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

For something Small, I'd start with dinocanisaurus. Not sure I'd want to keep the Small one trip-intensive, but there's no real evidence for the swarmfighting thing either.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

InsanePsychoRabbit said:


> Sorry for double-posting, but i found a gorgonopsid that might be Medium-sized. According to this posting, Arctognathus was 1.8 meters in length.




Great!


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 11, 2008)

What now? Do we want to work on Lycaenops or Arctognathus? If we were to work on Arctognathus, the Medium one, we could base it off Lycaesaurus and not have to make too many changes (I like the trip abilities).


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2008)

Let's start with the Medium one and work our way down the size scale.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 12, 2008)

OK. Base it off Lycaesaurus?


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2008)

Sounds reasonable.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 12, 2008)

Agreed. 
We should bump it up a Hit Die. I'm thinking it should be bear-like (heck, Arctognathus means bear jaw in Greek), so let's look at the black bear for an idea of the ability scores.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 12, 2008)

Good thinking on making it less wolf-y, more black bear. I still think we should go tripping/rend fallen rather than grappling, though.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 12, 2008)

I certainly like the tripping abilities too and I think we should keep them. I suppose they can still work even with the bear flavor because if a bear knocks you to the ground, it can and will tear you apart.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 12, 2008)

OK, bearing up and adding a HD gets us

Arctognathus
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 4d8+8 (26 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+1 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+7
Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d6+6)
Full Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d6+6)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Tear fallen +1d6, trip
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +6, Listen +5, Move Silently +6, Spot +5, Survival +3, 1 more (Survival?)
Feats: Alertness, Track
Environment: Warm plains
Organization: Solitary, pair or pack (4-8)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 5-8 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: -

Do we want to keep Alertness as the second feat? Do we want to keep them pack hunters? Do we want to boost AC and/or CR? They're starting to look more competitive with dire wolves than black bears with this set of stats.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 12, 2008)

What we have there is prolly worth a CR of 3. I'm not too sure on pack hunting. Agree with adding the new skill point to Survival. Where's Shade right now anyways?


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2008)

Yeah, they're a little better than the bear.  I don't think they could quite go toe to toe with a dire wolf, though.  Not strong enough, not enough hp.  Might be a weak CR 3, though.

Let's put the last rank in Survival.  Alertness is ok for the feat, too.  Power Attack is an option, but they're not intelligent enough to use it effectively, so we'd need to specify how they use it.

Edit: Let's maybe shrink the packs to families of 3-4.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 12, 2008)

Yeah, they seem stuck in CR 2.5 territory for me. I could go either way on CRing them.


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## freyar (Dec 13, 2008)

Anything we can do to bump it to CR 3?  Could it have claw attacks?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 13, 2008)

Not claw attacks, I think (I like them with just a powerful bite), but giving it augmented critical like the other gorgonopsid and a boost to either Dex or natural armor should help.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 14, 2008)

I'd support adding more natural armor and augmented critical. How do we want to do the augmented critical, however? Do we want to augment the threat range or the damage multiplier, or both?


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## freyar (Dec 14, 2008)

Last time we did 19-20/x3.  I also approve of bumping natural armor.  +6 maybe?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 14, 2008)

I'd rather boost Dex than natural armor, actually. The Large one we did had +6 natural armor, and it'd be weird for the Medium one to have the same.


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## freyar (Dec 14, 2008)

Could do +5 nat and Dex 15, or Dex 17 if you want, I guess.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 14, 2008)

+5 natural, 15 Dex, let's say.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 14, 2008)

That sounds good.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

I had an unexpected day off yesterday thanks to snow.  

I'll get these guys homebrewed shortly.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2008)

200 lb?  Is this one done after that?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 16, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> An arctognathus is a mid-sized gorgonopsian, a group of carnivorous therapsids that predated the dinosaurs. As large as a man, *inostrancevia* was able to bring down prey larger than itself with its deadly, saberlike incisors.




Found something for you to fix...

200 pounds or so seems adequate for weight.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2008)

I think so!


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

Updated.

Ready for the little guy?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2008)

Let's do it. Use Lycaenops for the name?


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

Sounds good.

Lycaenops - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2008)

OK, so let's make 'em fast. Do we want to keep the swarmfighting thing from Dinocanisaurus?


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

Sure!   

They don't really strike me as finesse hunters, so maybe drop Weapon Finesse and boost Str to 15?  That would be the normal Str for downsizing Arctognathus to Small.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2008)

Sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Drop the climb speed?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2008)

Drop the Climb speed, drop the natural armor from +4 to +2 (dinocanisauruses were explicitly armor-plated). Mention that, although they take small prey singly, they work together to fell larger animals in their flavor-text.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 17, 2008)

Something the size of a Small dog isn't going to weigh 200 pounds. Where did that come from? I'd say it weighs closer to 50 pounds.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 17, 2008)

I'm guessing the 200 pounds is a copy/paste error from the last one we did.

InsanePsychoRabbit, you should join us in the other conversion threads. It'd be fun!


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 17, 2008)

Maybe I will sometime. I can be your proofreader and pick out all your random mistakes. That seems to be something I'm good at.


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2008)

Wow, looks done already!

I'll second the invitation, InsanePsychoRabbit.  There's a lot going on here; we can use any help you care to give.


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2008)

InsanePsychoRabbit said:


> Maybe I will sometime. I can be your proofreader and pick out all your random mistakes. That seems to be something I'm good at.




That's how I got my "foot in the door", if you will.  

Fixed.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

Since we have a good sampling of gornopsians, shall we move on to cynodonts?


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

Sure, if everyone's satisfied we have enough gorgonopsids.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

Sure!


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

Start with Cynognathus?


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

Sounds good.  It's "metre-long," so Small?  Maybe base this on a dog and beef it up a little?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

I'm not sure I'd even beef it up a little. I think "about dog" would be very sensible.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

Fair enough.  Maybe swap around some attributes just to make some difference.  The dog is Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6, so do you want to do Str 15, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6 or something like that?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 18, 2008)

freyar, that sounds like the big dog's ability scores. I think they would be fine.

Shade, you fixed the lycaenops' weight, but you didn't add in any of the things demiurge suggested.


			
				demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Drop the Climb speed, drop the natural armor from +4 to +2 (dinocanisauruses were explicitly armor-plated). Mention that, although they take small prey singly, they work together to fell larger animals in their flavor-text.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

InsanePsychoRabbit said:


> freyar, that sounds like the big dog's ability scores. I think they would be fine.
> 
> Shade, you fixed the lycaenops' weight, but you didn't add in any of the things demiurge suggested.



You know, you're right, just fiddled around.  Hmmmm.  How about Str 14, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 6?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

I totally missed that my Lycaenops suggestions were ignored. Serves me right for not actually reading it.

Now, about Cynognathus... I'd prefer Str 13, Dex 15, Con 17. Not strong, not that dextrous, but hardy.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

InsanePsychoRabbit said:


> Shade, you fixed the lycaenops' weight, but you didn't add in any of the things demiurge suggested.




Oops!  Missed that.  I'll fix it accordingly.

Str 13, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 6 sounds good for Cyggy.  I'll Homebrew 'em shortly.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

Int 1? These guys are basically stem-mammals. Int 2.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

Yeah, Int 2 then.

Updated Lycaenops.

1 HD for Cynognathus?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 18, 2008)

1 HD sounds good.

How about this for the cynognathus' flavor text?

_This creature resembles a dog, but it has a more primitive aspect. Its short, squat body bears a coat of mottled fur, and two fangs stick out from its dog-like muzzle. It carries its long, thick tail above the ground._

Cynognathus is a cynodont, one of the more advanced forms of therapsid ("mammal-like reptile"). Living just before the rise of the first dinosaurs, these dog-sized carnivores preyed on dicynodonts and herbivorous cynodonts.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

I like it all so far.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I'm assuming no natural armor, since they were so "mammal-like".  Anyone think it should have some?

I can't discern any special abilities are needed.  

Environment?

Advancement?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

Dogs do have +1 natural armor, but I'd be okay with none.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 19, 2008)

Since they have fur, that probably warrants a +1 natural armor bonus. Both the small dog and the serval (in Sandstorm) have a +1 natural armor bonus.

I can't think of any more special abilities it should have.
I'd suggest an advancement of 2-3 HD (Small).


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2008)

I'd support +1 natural.

The wikipedia entry seems consistent with "Any land" for environment.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 19, 2008)

Temperate and warm plains and hills.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 22, 2008)

I'd say temperate to warm land. The world was pretty warm then and they were found all over the globe.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 4

Feats: 1 

A cynognathus is 3 feet long and weighs around x pounds.


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## freyar (Dec 23, 2008)

Listen 2, Spot 2?  Alertness?  60 lb?  

Or we could make this more stealthy and give it Hide 2, Move Silently 2, Stealthy.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

Stealthy seems like a good fit, but I think it should have at least 1 rank in Listen and Spot.


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## freyar (Dec 23, 2008)

Could do Listen 2, Spot 2 and Stealthy to give it some of each.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

Sure.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 23, 2008)

I second that.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Updated.

CR 1/2?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 23, 2008)

I agree with the CR of 1/2.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

In that case, I think this one's done.   Anyone have a good Medium-sized cynodont suggestion?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 23, 2008)

We still don't have a sentence for its tactics.

Something like "A cynognathus attempts to conceal itself with any low vegetation it can find, then rushes out of cover to attack. Packs of cynognathus use similar tactics but additionally try to surround their target."


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Looks good.  Would the plural of cynognathus be "cynognathi"?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 23, 2008)

I guess so.

I found a Medium-sized cynodont. Exaeretodon was a 6-foot herbivore.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

Cynognathus is its own plural. I like the big herbivorous cynodont. Shade, by the time cynodonts were around, most of the big carnivores were archosaurs, either crusotarsans (crocodile-relatives, like the ones we converted earlier) or primitive dinosaurs.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Shade, by the time cynodonts were around, most of the big carnivores were archosaurs, either crusotarsans (crocodile-relatives, like the ones we converted earlier) or primitive dinosaurs.




Do I have some flavor text that needs changing?

Suggested ability scores for Exaeretodon?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 23, 2008)

I also found a bigger herbivorious cynodont called Diademodon, which was cow-sized.

I think that demiurge is suggesting that there weren't any big carnivorous cynodonts.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

InsanePsychoRabbit said:


> I think that demiurge is suggesting that there weren't any big carnivorous cynodonts.



Indeed I am.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 23, 2008)

For Exaeretodon's physical ability scores I'd suggest Str 15, Dex 11, Con 17.  They're herbivores, so they don't need to be especially quick, but they look like they'd be hardy. Additionally, I'd suggest 3 Hit Dice.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Ahh...gotcha!

Diademodon sounds like yet another cog in the demon/daemon/demondand machine.  

Shall we start with Exaeretodon?   If so, suggested HD and ability scores?


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## freyar (Dec 24, 2008)

Ok, you've been busy!  It all sounds good to me!


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 24, 2008)

Here's what I have so far.

*Cynodont, Exaeretodon*
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 3d8+9 (22 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 feet (6 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+3 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+4
Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d4+3)
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d4+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +2
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 11, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +6, Spot +6
Feats: Alertness, Endurance
Environment: Temperate or warm plains
Organization: Solitary, pair, or herd (6-20)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 4-6 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: -

_This creature somewhat resembles a pig, but it has a more primitive aspect. Its squat, barrel-shaped body bears a coat of fur, and a pair of tusk-like fangs stick out from its mouth. _

Exaeretodon is a cynodont, one of the more advanced forms of therapsid (“mammal-like reptile”). One of the largest cynodonts, exaeretodon lived alongside some of the earliest dinosaurs, such as the herrerasaurus, and fed exclusively on plants.

An exaeretodon is about 6 feet long and weighs from 150 to 200 pounds.

*Combat*
Even though Exaeretodon is an herbivore, its fangs give it a dangerous bite.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 24, 2008)

Looks alright. How will we differentiate it mechanically from the inevitable dicynodonts?


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## Melatuis (Dec 25, 2008)

"tusk-like fangs" does this mean they are in the lower jaw and point up?  if so, how are they used?

you guys move so much faster than i can read.  yes, i read slow.

I just went back and hit the link to the Exaeretodon and found the info ask.

keep up the good work

thank you.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 25, 2008)

We could give the dicynodonts a special attack, like trample or stampede for larger forms.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 26, 2008)

Trample and hold breath seem appropriate for dicynodonts.


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## Shade (Dec 26, 2008)

I'm thinking CR 1 for this creature.  A 5-HD, Large bison is CR 2.

Skills:  Listen and Spot?

Feats:  Alertness and Endurance?

Advancement to 6 HD?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 26, 2008)

I was basing my estimate of CR 2 on the boar, which has similar ability scores and Hit Dice, but it does have a special ability (ferocity) that makes it more dangerous. You may be right.

I agree with you on the skills, feats and advancement.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 27, 2008)

It looks like a touch CR 1. Reduce bite damage to 1d4 and it'll be around par.


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## freyar (Dec 27, 2008)

Let's go with 1d4 damage.  The rest sounds good.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 27, 2008)

OK, I'll agree to that. I've updated it again. Now all we need is its environment and weight and we'll be all set.

Some notes on the Ischigualasto Formation in which Exaeretodon has been found: "In the Carnian (late Triassic) this area was a volcanically active floodplain dominated by rivers and had a strongly seasonal rainfall. Petrified tree trunks of _Protojuniperoxylon ischigualastianus_ more than 40 m (131 ft) tall attest to a rich vegetation at that time. Fossil ferns and horsetails have also been found."


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## Shade (Dec 30, 2008)

So "temperate or warm plains" for the environment?

150 to 200 pounds for weight?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 30, 2008)

Weight and environment sound good.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 30, 2008)

I thing they sound good too. Let's put it in Homebrews and call it done.


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## Shade (Dec 30, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.   Ready to move on?


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## freyar (Dec 30, 2008)

Works for me...


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Dec 31, 2008)

OK, what's next? Do we want to do the giant cynodont Diademodon, or do we want to move on to the dicynodonts?


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## RavinRay (Jan 1, 2009)

Darn, I somehow got unsubscribed from this (or didn't subscribe) and missed out on the fun. Gotta get back.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 1, 2009)

RavinRay said:


> Darn, I somehow got unsubscribed from this (or didn't subscribe) and missed out on the fun. Gotta get back.




Probably didn't subscribe to this iteration of the thread--last one got closed due to length.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 1, 2009)

Sorry for going off topic, but...
*Happy New Year!!*

(it's exactly midnight where I live)


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2009)

Right back at you!

Ready for Diademodon?   I can't determine from the link above if it is a herbivore or carnivore.  Once we know that, we can "upsize" one of the other cynodonts to get some stats.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2009)

Looks herbivorous to me. Probably wouldn't have said no to the occasional bit of carrion, but not a predator by any means.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 5, 2009)

Diademodon was an herbivore (but it had fangs like the other cynodonts), and I've managed to pull up some information about its lifestyle. According to this report on research of isotopes found in its teeth, the place it lived in was arid and seasonal, and it fed mostly in damp shady areas.

As far as its actual statistics go, I'd start out by upsizing our Exaeretodon and go with a total of 5 Hit Dice.


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2009)

Let's go 7 HD (where Exaeretodon's HD progression left off)...

Cynodont, Diademodon
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 7d8+35 (66 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (-1 size, +5 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+15
Attack: Bite +10 melee (1d6+9)
Full Attack: Bite +10 melee (1d6+9)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 11, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +7, Spot +7
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, 1 more
Environment: Temperate or warm plains
Organization: Solitary, pair, or herd (6-20)
Challenge Rating: 3?
Treasure: None
alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: —


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## freyar (Jan 5, 2009)

Would these be reasonable to haev something like stampede to jazz them up a little?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2009)

We should give these guys stampede like a bison, and Diehard for their other feat. From IPR's info on the isotopic ratios in their teeth, they should live in... hm. Warm and temperate forests? Damp and shady suggests to me lots of plant cover.


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jan 5, 2009)

CR 3 is ok, I think.  They're basically a bag of hp with a decent bite.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2009)

I'd say CR 4, comparing them to the dire boar. The dire boar does more damage and has a wee bit higher AC, whereas the diademodon has quite a few more HP. Diehard and ferocity are functionally equal.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 5, 2009)

The report described the environment as semi-arid and similar to western South Africa today (but a bit drier), so I'm thinking more along the lines of scrubland than forests. Also I have the flavor text ready.


_This creature somewhat resembles a huge boar, but it has a more primitive aspect. Its squat, barrel-shaped body bears a coat of fur, and a pair of fangs is just visible poking out of its mouth._

Diademodon is a cynodont, one of the more advanced forms of therapsid (“mammal-like reptile”). Living just before the rise of the first dinosaurs, this cynodont was a hardy nocturnal herbivore. 

Diademodon was large for a cynodont, with individuals often growing to the size of a small cow.

Combat
Even though diademodon is an herbivore, its fangs give it a dangerous bite.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2009)

So, IPR, what do you think about the CR? 3 or 4?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 6, 2009)

I'm leaning towards CR 4.


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## RavinRay (Jan 6, 2009)

Hippos are herbivores but if provoked can inflict serious damage with their canines, so it's not far-fetched for a cynodont (and the distantly related dicynodonts) to be dangerous as well.


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## freyar (Jan 6, 2009)

RavinRay said:


> Hippos are herbivores but if provoked can inflict serious damage with their canines, so it's not far-fetched for a cynodont (and the distantly related dicynodonts) to be dangerous as well.



True enough!  I hear hippos are quite dangerous.

CR 4 is ok by me.


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## Echohawk (Jan 6, 2009)

freyar said:


> True enough!  I hear hippos are quite dangerous.



Very. They kill more people around these parts than any other animal. I'd much rather stumble across a crocodile or a lion than a hippo in the bush.


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## RavinRay (Jan 6, 2009)

Which reminds me, the behemoth from the 1e Monster Manual 2 is what would be in 3e a dire hippo. Has it been converted on another thread?


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## Echohawk (Jan 6, 2009)

There is a CC version of the MMII behemoth here, but it dates back to 2001, and might need a 3.5 update.


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

There's a dire hippo in Sandstorm, but we can update the behemoth in the Overhaul thread if you'd like.



			
				InsanePsychoRabbit said:
			
		

> The report described the environment as semi-arid and similar to western South Africa today (but a bit drier), so I'm thinking more along the lines of scrubland than forests.




So using the 3.5 environments, would that be best described as "temperate or warm plains"?

Updated.

We still need Advancement, length, and weight.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 6, 2009)

'Temperate or warm plains' sounds good.

I haven't been able to dredge up anything about its length or weight yet, but my mom says that a small cow would weigh about 1,000 pounds. For advancement I'd go with something like 8-14 HD (Large).

I almost forgot! Its reach should be 5 feet instead of 10 feet, since it's a quadruped.


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## freyar (Jan 6, 2009)

Probably 5-6 ft long, too. Say "upto 1000 lb"?

Alignment needs to be capitalized.


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Updated.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 6, 2009)

Exaeretodon (the Medium cynodont) was 6 feet long, so Diademodon would probably be longer. Looking at pictures they seem to be built similarly.
Also, you listed its reach as 10 feet, whereas it should be 5 feet because it is a quadruped.

Aside from my nitpicking, are we done?


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Nice catch on the reach.

About the length...isn't a small cow about 5-6 feet long?  If so, we should probably either remove the "size of a small cow" bit and increase the length, or just eliminate the length and stick with the "small cow" bit and weight.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 6, 2009)

I'd stick with the 'small cow' bit and the weight, and drop the length.


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Sounds good.  Updated.   I think we're done now.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 6, 2009)

All right then, let's get started on the dicynodonts! I've come up with a list of species and their sizes.

Dicynodon – average ~4ft (Small, advanced specimens may be Medium)
Diictodon – 18 inches (Tiny)
Kannemeyeria – ~10 ft (Large)
Lystrosaurus – 'pig sized' (Medium)
Placerias – 3.5 meters long and 1-2 metric tons (Large, advanced specimens may be Huge)
Robertia – ~8 inches (Diminutive)
Stahleckeria potens – 13 feet long and 880 pounds (Large)


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Nice summary!  We should try to come up with a HD breakdown as well before we get started.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

I'm in favor of:

Diictodon: Tiny, 1 HD (suitable for being a familiar, grants a +2 to Survival checks)

Dicynodon: Small, 2 HD (advances to 4)

Lystrosaurus: Medium, 5 HD (advances to 8)

Placerias: Large, 9 HD (advances to 18, with 15-18 HD being Huge)


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Sounds good.  I'd throw Robertia in there as well, simply because there aren't enough Diminutive prehistoric creatures.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

Robertia as 1/2 HD, familiar, grants +2 to Hide?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 6, 2009)

Those all sound good.


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Robertia as 1/2 HD, familiar, grants +2 to Hide?




Sure.  Shall we start with this one, and work our way up?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

Sure!


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Ability scores of some other Diminutive animals...

Bat: Str 1, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 4
Toad: Str 1, Dex 12, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 14, Cha 4
Chipmunk: Str 1, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
Ferret:  Str 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 5  (familiar stats)
Hedgehog: Str 3, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 5 (familiar stats)


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

Let's go for something akin to a hedgehog. Bump the Con to 13--I see high Con as a theme throughout the lineage. Give it move speed 10ft, burrow 10ft? Or do we see these guys living above ground? I know Diictodon was a burrower.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 6, 2009)

I imagine them as burrowers as well. According to the Diictodon article, deserts were "the dominant environment on the continent of Pangaea in the Late Permian Period." Also, both Diictodon and Robertia were found in South Africa.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

...am I the only one who wants to get speculative with these guys?

We know Diictodon survived the Permian extinction, which killed off 90% of all life on Earth. That's why I made their familiar bonus a bonus to Survival checks, and when we get to them, I'm going to suggest they get a massive racial bonus to Survival. Robertia, on the other hand, didn't make it, which raises the possibility that its life style was too specialized to survive a period of hardship.

Which is a roundabout way of saying that I want Robertia to be analogous to naked mole rats. Colonial hive structure with only one reproductive female, vast burrow complexes under the baking desert. I'd feel more vindicated in this view if we had multiple Robertia specimens from the same locality. Unfortunately, I can only find citations of the original paper describing Robertia, but not the paper itself.


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> ...am I the only one who wants to get speculative with these guys?
> 
> We know Diictodon survived the Permian extinction, which killed off 90% of all life on Earth. That's why I made their familiar bonus a bonus to Survival checks, and when we get to them, I'm going to suggest they get a massive racial bonus to Survival. Robertia, on the other hand, didn't make it, which raises the possibility that its life style was too specialized to survive a period of hardship.
> 
> Which is a roundabout way of saying that I want Robertia to be analogous to naked mole rats. Colonial hive structure with only one reproductive female, vast burrow complexes under the baking desert. I'd feel more vindicated in this view if we had multiple Robertia specimens from the same locality. Unfortunately, I can only find citations of the original paper describing Robertia, but not the paper itself.




I'm cool with that.


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## RavinRay (Jan 7, 2009)

ISR and demiurge, you're so pat on the dicynodonts!  I like these critters, in my _Dinosaurs: A Global View_ by Stephen and Sylvia Czerkas, a lavishly-illustrated coffee-table book (it's like the _Draconomicon_ of paleo books in my collection ), there's a group of _Diictodon_ emerging from their burrows, and a dead _Kannemeyeria_ being savaged by a pack of tiger-striped cynodonts, its throat torn open.

I've never made a connection with the naked mole rats (they're far less warm-blooded than almost any other mammal), but that's an interesting twist for _Robertia_. demiurge if you're really interested I can ask at the Vertebrate Paleontology Mailing list for a _Robertia_ PDF.

Deserts dominated Pangaea because much of the supercontinent was so far away from the cooling and humidifying effects of the ocean.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 7, 2009)

I would love a PDF of the Robertia description, thank you!


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

Bite damage 1d2?

Any special attacks?

Scent?

Skills: 4

Feats: Weapon Finesse (B), 1 more

Environment: Temperate or warm deserts?

Organization: x?

Advancement: x


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 8, 2009)

No special attacks. I'm not too sure about scent.
I'd go with skill points split between Listen and Spot, and the Alertness feat.
Bite 1d2 sounds okay.
Environment sounds okay.

If they're organized like naked mole rats, I'd go with an organization like Burrow (5-20) or colony (50-100).

Advancement 1 HD (Tiny)


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

Listen, Spot and Hide all seem worth putting points into for me. I'm alright with Alertness.


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

Updated.

CR 1/8?  They seem about on par with a rat.  They're smaller, but have more hp.

Anyone want to tackle the flavor text?


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2009)

CR 1/8 seems fair enough.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 8, 2009)

CR 1/8 is fine.

It would be nice to see the PDF description of Robertia first, but I've come up with this flavor text in the meantime:

_This little creature resembles a cross between a lizard and a naked mole rat, with a parrot-like hooked beak and two fangs in its upper jaw._

Robertia is a dicynodont, an herbivorous therapsid (“mammal-like reptile”). Dicynodonts are characterized by their parrot-like beaks, two tusks in the upper jaw, and barrel-shaped bodies with splayed legs. Robertia is the smallest dicynodont, close in size to a ground squirrel.

Robertia are social animals, living in large communal burrows. Only one female, the queen, is capable of producing offspring; all other females (as well as most of the males) are sterile. Robertia spend most of the day underground to avoid the hot desert sun, but during the cooler parts of the day, multiple individuals leave the burrow to gather food, which they bring back to the burrow to share with other members of the colony. This lifestyle allows the colony to maximize its foraging success. 

Robertia is a minuscule creature; the average individual is 8 inches long and weighs no more than a few ounces.

Combat
A robertia encountered on the surface flees down the nearest hole if spooked, giving an alarm call to warn other colony members. If cornered, a robertia will bite.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

I like the flavor text! Given their status as eusocial, perhaps their familiar bonus should be to Diplomacy or Sense Motive.


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2009)

I like the idea of a Sense Motive bonus.


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

I like all of that.  Updated.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

Time to move on?


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

I think so.  Diictodon next?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 8, 2009)

Ok.

To start, upsizing the Robertia would give us these ability scores:
Str 5, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4

Do we want to use these ability scores as-is?

demiurge suggested giving the Diictodon a massive racial bonus to Survival since these animals (or their immediate descendants) survived the Permian extinction.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

Yes. 1 HD. Ability scores from size increase would go:

Abilities: Str 5, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4

Which I think is alright, but could see an argument made for keeping Dex at 12.

Edit: Ninjaed by IPR! I still stick to my guns for a huge (+4 to +8) racial bonus on Survival checks.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 9, 2009)

*Dicynodont, Diictodon*
Tiny Animal
Hit Dice: 1d8+1 (5 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 15 ft. (3 squares), burrow 10 ft.
Armor Class: 13 (+2 size, +1 Dex), touch 13, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-11
Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d3-3)
Full Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d3-3)
Space/Reach: 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Arid adaptation, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +1
Abilities: Str 5, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Hide +9, Listen +5, Spot +5, Survival +9
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Temperate or warm deserts
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 1/4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 2 HD (Tiny), 3 HD (Small)
Level Adjustment: — 

_This little creature looks a bit like a gopher with a parrot's head, though its legs are splayed out like a reptile's. A pair of small fangs is situated directly behind its beak._

Diictodon is a dicynodont, an herbivorous therapsid (“mammal-like reptile”). Dicynodonts are characterized by their parrot-like beaks, two tusks in the upper jaw, and barrel-shaped bodies with splayed legs. The diictodon is one of the most abundant of all dicynodonts.

Diictodons are burrowing animals, similar to modern gophers. A mated pair of diictodons shares one burrow. Diictodons commonly make burrows near seasonal floodplains, where food is more abundant than out in the open desert. During cooler parts of the day, diictodons emerge from their burrows to forage. Diictodons survive drought conditions by digging up and eating plant roots and tubers, these often being enough to sustain a pair until the next rainy season.

Male diictodons have larger tusks than females - the most ancient known example of sexual dimorphism.

A diictodon is a foot and a half long and weighs about four pounds. 

A diictodon familiar grants its master a +3 bonus on Survival checks. 

Combat
A diictodon encountered on the surface will scurry as fast as it can back to its burrow if it is spooked, giving an alarm call to warn its mate or any other diictodons in the area. If cornered, a diictodon will bite. 

Arid Adaptation (Ex): A diictodon does not need to make Fortitude saves to avoid taking nonlethal damage in conditions between 90 degrees and 140 degrees. In conditions of extreme heat (above 140 degrees) it must make Fortitude saves like any other creature, but gains a +4 racial bonus on this save. In addition, a diictodon needs to drink only half as much water as similarly-sized creatures.

Skills: A diictodon has a +8 racial bonus on Survival checks.


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Looking pretty good!  I'm for Dex 12 for no particular reason.  +8 to Survival works for me.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 9, 2009)

Wait a minute...I just noticed something. if Robertia is Diminutive and has Weapon Finesse, shouldn't its attack bonus be +5? (+4 for size, +1 for its Dexterity)


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

InsanePsychoRabbit said:


> Wait a minute...I just noticed something. if Robertia is Diminutive and has Weapon Finesse, shouldn't its attack bonus be +5? (+4 for size, +1 for its Dexterity)




Correct. I appear to have missed the size modifier.  Nice catch!

Fixed.

Diictodon looks good, and CR 1/4 seems about right.  They're slightly hardier than cats, but have less damage output and worse AC.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

How about we give them arid adaptation? Similar to the musk ox arctic adaptation, but for environmental heat, plus they only need half the water of a creature their size/no water? I can see Diictodon getting all of its moisture from the tubers and seeds it eats, like a modern day jerboa.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

I like it!


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 9, 2009)

That sounds good. Could you post the text for the Arctic Adaptation ability?


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

I like it too!


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Here's the arctic adaptation ability...

Arctic Adaptation (Ex): A musk-ox does not need to make Fortitude saves to avoid taking nonlethal damage in conditions between 40 degrees and -20 degrees. In conditions of extreme cold (below -20 degrees) it must make Fortitude saves like any other creature, but gains a +4 racial bonus on this save. 

Here's something similar we did earlier...

Temperature Regulation (Ex): An echidna's lukewarm blood and embedded spines allow it to better tolerate cold temperatures, but also makes it more vulnerable to heat. A giant echidna need not make a Fortitude save to avoid nonlethal damage in cold temperatures. However, it suffers a -4 penalty on Fortitude saves to avoid nonlethal damage in hot temperatures (see Heat Dangers in the DMG).


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Arid Adaptation (Ex): A diictodon does not need to make Fortitude saves to avoid taking nonlethal damage in conditions between 90 degrees and 140 degrees. In conditions of extreme heat (above 140 degrees) it must make Fortitude saves like any other creature, but gains a +4 racial bonus on this save.  In addition, a diictodon needs to drink only half as much water as similarly-sized creatures.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 9, 2009)

Excellent! Are we done now?

I updated the post to include the new ability.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

It looks pretty much done to me.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Transferred to Homebrews, and I agree we're finished.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 9, 2009)

Okay, then let's start with Dicynodon. 

Upsizing the Diictodon gives the following ability scores:
Str 9, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4

I'd advocate increasing the Con score to at least 15. I'd also give it a natural armor bonus of +2 for a total AC of 13 (+1 size, +2 natural).

According to Wikipedia, Dicynodon was found in more places than just South Africa, so its environment should be something like Temperate or warm land.

Edit: I also came up with flavor text.

_This dog-sized creature resembles a fat lizard with a short tail and a turtle's head. Two fangs are situated directly behind its hooked beak._

Dicynodon is a dicynodont, an herbivorous therapsid (“mammal-like reptile”). Dicynodonts are characterized by their parrot-like beaks, two tusks in the upper jaw, and barrel-shaped bodies with splayed legs. Dicynodon is a common, widespread representative of the dicynodont lineage. Unlike some of its smaller cousins (such as the robertia), the dicynodon is relatively unspecialized, which accounts for its wide range.

Dicynodons average about 4 feet in length and weigh around 60 pounds.

Combat
Dicynodons flee if threatened, but will bite as a last resort.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

Let's increase Con to 15 and bump Str up to 10.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 11, 2009)

Since I have nothing better to do, I'll post the stat-block I came up with.

Dicynodont, Dicynodon
Small Animal
Hit Dice: 2d4+6 (13 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+1 size, +2 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-3
Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d4)
Full Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +1
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Hide +4, Listen +5, Spot +5, 1 more point
Feats: Alertness
Environment: Temperate or warm land
Organization: Solitary, pair, or herd (5-40)?
Challenge Rating: 1/2?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 3-4 HD (Small); 5-6 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: -


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 11, 2009)

Let's put that last point into Hide so it's actually trained in it. The CR looks about right--it's got a lot of hit points, but offensively it's below the average humanoid warrior, so it balances out.


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 12, 2009)

Shade, you neglected to put in my flavor text - it's in this post


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## freyar (Jan 12, 2009)

Otherwise, seems about done, though.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2009)

Yeah, I missed the earlier post.  Updated.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2009)

Shall we move on to Lystrosaurus?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 13, 2009)

Yeah, that sounds good. 

Upsizing Dicynodon to Medium gives us these ability scores:
Str 14, Dex 8, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4

Do we want to increase the Dex score to 10?

The wikipedia article says that Lystrosaurus had strong forelimbs and was good at digging. It also states that it may have nested in burrows. I still don't think of it as a burrower in the way that Diictodon or (theoretically) Robertia was; I personally think it dug up roots and stuff to eat and used a burrow as a place to sleep.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 13, 2009)

Sure! 

Increasing Dicynodon to Medium just by giving it the size adjustments nets us:

Str 14, Dex 8, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4

This is about comparable to a boar, which I like, but like the boar I think that the Dex should get boosted back up to 10. It was ridiculously common, leading me to think that it should have a similar racial Survival bonus to Diictodon. The Wikipedia entry suggests that paleontologists have hypothesized that it nested in burrows--I'm thinking this should be just flavor text as opposed to a burrow speed, but I'm flexible. Likewise, we could give it either a slow Swim speed or a racial bonus to Swim checks, since its high nostrils and eyes, and its hippo-like body plan, suggest it may have been an aquatic grazer.

Edit: Ninja'ed again!


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2009)

Great minds thinking alike...in near real-time!  

Added to Homebrews.

Any preferences on Swim bonus vs. swim speed?

Natural armor bonus?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 13, 2009)

How about +4 natural?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 14, 2009)

Alertness and Endurance for feats?
2 ranks in Survival and 3 ranks each in Listen and Spot?
Temperate or warm land for environment?

Resources I've been looking up say that Lystrosaurus was fully terrestrial. 
This page says "It was once thought that Lystrosaurus lived much like a modern hippopotamus, pursuing a semi-aquatic existence, but it now appears to have thrived in hot, dry environments."

Here's a nice PDF description of Lystrosaurus based on material found in Antarctica: http://www.uoregon.edu/~gregr/Papers/lystrosaurus.pdf

Based on these I have come up with flavor text: 

_This creature resembles a melding of pig and lizard, with a thick, barrel-like body and splayed legs. Its forelimbs look particularly strong. Its head is large but short, with high-set eyes and a hooked beak with two fangs situated directly behind it. _

Lystrosaurus is a dicynodont, an herbivorous therapsid (“mammal-like reptile”). Dicynodonts are characterized by their parrot-like beaks, two tusks in the upper jaw, and barrel-shaped bodies with splayed legs. Lystrosaurus is a common, widespread representative of the dicynodont lineage.

Lystrosaurus is one of the few dicynodonts with near-worldwide distribution. They sleep in simple burrows during the day. Around sundown, lystrosauruses emerge from their burrows, congregating in large groups to protect their young from predators. At dawn, the herds disperse and individuals return to their burrows. When food becomes scarce, lystrosauruses dig for roots and ground water using their powerful forelimbs.

Lystrosaurus is heavy for its size, being about 3 feet long and weighing around 200 pounds.

Combat
Adult lystrosauruses have few natural predators due to their size (they are large for dicynodonts), though Small predators such as the cynognathus may take young lystrosauruses. Adults ignore Small or smaller creatures unless attacked by one, retaliating by biting. If a lone lystrosaurus is threatened by a Medium or larger creature, however, it will flee back to its burrow, but will bite as a last resort.


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2009)

Wow.  All this looks great to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 14, 2009)

OK, scratch the swimming. Stick to burrows as flavor text?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 14, 2009)

Yeah, let's keep the burrows as just flavor text.


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## Shade (Jan 14, 2009)

Fantastic!

Updated.

CR 2?  At 5 HD, they are more comparable to a bison (CR 2) than a lion (CR 3).

Herd size?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 14, 2009)

Agreed to CR. Herd of 5-20?


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## Shade (Jan 14, 2009)

That sounds reasonable.  Updated.

Anything left for 'em?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 14, 2009)

Not sure how I feel about "worldwide distribution". That'd be fine if all campaigns took place in the end Permian/early Triassic, but the general assumption is that dinosaurs et al are only found in "lost world" regions. Let's say instead that Lystrosaurus is exceedingly common in primeval worlds, or something like that. 

Other than that, I think we're done. Now, Placerias.

Advancing Lystrosaurus gets us:

Str 22, Dex 8, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4 and +6 natural armor. 

Compare to a bison: Str 22, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 4, +4 natural armor
or a rhino: Str 26, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 2, +7 natural armor

I think we should boost the Str up to 24, and the Dex back to 10.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 14, 2009)

About the 'worldwide distribution' vs 'lost world' thing, I wouldn't mind letting it go. It's really not a big deal, it's all just a matter of preference on the part of the person making the campaign setting.

Now as for Placerias I agree with the strength boost, and I also believe we should give it a special attack like trample and/or powerful charge. 
Also the way its tusks stick out I would even consider giving it a gore attack, unless we want to make it generic and usable to represent other Large dicynodonts like Kannemeyeria, Dinodontosaurus and that unnamed rhinoceros-sized dicynodont from Poland.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 14, 2009)

Replacing the bite with a gore suits me just fine. Ditto giving it both trample and deadly charge (unfortunately, "Powerful Charge" has been co-opted into a feat). Perhaps, to heighten the boar analogy, ferocity? Just a thought--I'm not as attached to it as I am to trample and deadly charge.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 15, 2009)

According to Wikipedia, Placerias may have lived like a hippopotamus. This time the theory has scientific backing, because Placerias are usually found in mudstone. It should probably have some sort of Swim bonus, if not an actual swim speed.

For feats I suggest Alertness, Endurance, Improved Bull Rush, and Power Attack

Here's the flavor text I've come up with:

_Displaying both reptilian and mammalian traits, this ox-sized beast is built like a barrel. Its stout limbs stick out from its body at a slight angle. It has a large, sloping head with a turtle-like beak. Two large, forward-curving tusks sprout from behind its beak._

Placerias is a dicynodont, an herbivorous therapsid (“mammal-like reptile”). Dicynodonts are characterized by their parrot-like beaks, two tusks in the upper jaw, and barrel-shaped bodies with splayed legs. Placerias is one of the largest dicynodonts, comparable in size to a cow.

Placerias is similar to a hippopotamus in its habits. During the wet season, groups of placerias spend most of their time wallowing in water, protecting themselves both from the sun and from large land predators like the postosuchus. During the dry season, placerias use their tusks to dig up roots for sustenance. Placerias also use these forward-curving tusks for defense and display.

An adult placerias is about 11 feet long and weighs anywhere from one to two tons.

Combat
Perhaps due to their size, placerias are particularly ornery for dicynodonts. They charge at any perceived threat, using their tusks to gore opponents.


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## RavinRay (Jan 15, 2009)

To support what IPR mentioned, a fossil find of a _Placerias_ predator showed that its bones had been crushed, meaning that acting as a herd, they are able to kill single predators with their tusks. It's in my *Dinosaurs: A Global View* book.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 15, 2009)

Here's the preliminary stat block I've come up with:

*Dicynodont, Placerias*
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 9d8+45 (85 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), swim 15? ft.
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +6 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+17
Attack: Gore +12 melee (1d8+10)
Full Attack: Gore +12 melee (1d8+10)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Deadly charge, trample 2d6+10
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +4
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4 
Skills: 12 points
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack
Environment: Warm plains (rivers)
Organization: Solitary, pair, or herd (5-20)
Challenge Rating: 4?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 10-14 HD (Large); 15-18 HD (Huge)

Combat

Deadly Charge (Ex): When a placerias charges, its gore attack does 2d8+14 points of damage.

Trample (Ex): Reflex half DC 21. The save DC is Strength-based.

Skills: A placerias has a +8 racial bonus on Swim checks made to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. A placerias can always take 10 on Swim checks, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided that it moves in a straight line.


I'm interested in splitting skill points evenly between Listen, Spot, and Survival; it shouldn't need to put ranks in Swim because its Strength score is quite high.


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2009)

I ported this over to Homebrews.

I'd agree with the suggested skill rank split, and agree that Str and swim speed bonus should suffice for Swim modifier.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 15, 2009)

I'd say CR 5. It's slightly better than a rhino in terms of hit points, and has trample to its advantage.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 15, 2009)

Ok. demiurge, do you agree with the assignment of skill points?

If we're entirely done with the therapsids now, what's next?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 15, 2009)

The skills look good to me.


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2009)

Updated.

As for what to do next, I don't believe we've done either of these yet:

Rhynchosaur [Dragon #112]
Therapsid, Estemmenosuchus [Dragon #176]

*RHYNCHOSAUR*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 1-20
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 9”
HIT DICE: 1 hp to 2 HD
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 (bite)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil to 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
SIZE: S to M (up to 3’ long)

Rhynchosaurs are lizardlike reptiles from the Triassic, where they may be extremely abundant in places. They are herbivores, some up to the size of a pig. With its large body, sprawling legs, and beaked head, a rhynchosaur may be envisioned as a large, barrel-shaped iguana with a parrotlike beak. Rhynchosaurs eat seeds and fruits, but they bite if molested. They vary with size as follows:

HIT DICE: to ¼ ½ 1 2
DAMAGE: Nil 1 1-2 1-4
SIZE: S(2-3) M(4) M(5) M(6)

*Estemennosuchus *
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Forests
FREQUENCY: Common
DIET: Herbivore
ORGANIZATION: Herd
NO. APPEARING: 5d10
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 6
HIT DICE: 4
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d6 (head butt) or 2d4
(bite)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: None
SPECIAL DEFENSES: None
SIZE: L (10’ long, weighs 1 ton)
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 175

Estemennosuchus is one of the Dinocephalia, or "horrible-headed" mammal-like reptiles. These creatures of the Permian period are herbivorous, but sport large fangs and a prominent bony boss or outgrowth on their heads (hence the name) for protection. They travel in sizable herds and may cooperate in the common defense in case of attack. The males will range themselves around the rest of the herd; as they each weigh a ton, it will be hard for any ground creature to get past them. They fight either with head butts or their great fangs.


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## Echohawk (Jan 15, 2009)

InsanePsychoRabbit said:


> If we're entirely done with the therapsids now, what's next?



Estemmenosuchus?

Edit: Shade beat me to it


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 16, 2009)

Let's start with Estemmenosuchus, then.

Let's see...it has 4 Hit Dice, and according to the conversion booklet, it has an Armor Class of 16 and a land speed of 20 (?) feet. The base damage should stay the same.
Now as for its ability scores, here's some Large animals to compare it to:
Bison: Str 22, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 4
Rhinoceros: Str 26, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 2
Dire Boar: Str 27, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 8
Hippopotamus: Str 24, Dex 9, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 3


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

I'm in favor of using the hippo's ability scores. They look pretty ungainly to me.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 16, 2009)

I agree - with its size and splayed legs, I don't think its Dex should be any higher than 8 or 9.

Edit: Here's a preliminary stat-block I've come up with:
Edit 2: Oops, missed Shade's post, I'll just leave the flavor text.

_This bull-sized creature is built like a barrel. Its thick body is supported by stout, splayed legs, and a short tail lashes behind it. Its most distinctive feature, however, is its head: one the sides of the face and above the eyes, it has horn-like projections, causing it to resemble a reptilian moose._

Estemmenosuchus is a dinocephalian, a type of primitive therapsid (“mammal-like reptile”). Like some other dinocephalians, it has bony ornamentation of the head, leading adventurers to refer to it as the “crowned crocodile.” The estemmenosuchus' ornamentation resembles the antlers of a large deer. Estemmenosuchuses use these antler-like projections to compete by head-butting and pushing.

An estemmenosuchus is 10 feet long and weighs one ton.

Combat
Estemmenosuchuses, especially males, are aggressive animals and will charge with head lowered into anything they deem to be a potential threat (basically any Medium or larger creature). In addition to their headgear, they have large canine teeth, making bites from estemmenosuchuses potentially deadly.


Do we want to give it any special attacks, like deadly charge? How about ferocity?

Dangit, my USB thumb drive just stopped working AGAIN, so I lost all my work on my dinosaur book project since I backed it up on December 21st >_< I hope that either it'll start working again miraculously or my dad can somehow recover it....even if neither of those happen, most of the stuff I lost was converted creatures from this thread, so it shouldn't be too hard to start over...


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Give it a swim speed?  One of the images on Wikipedia shows it swimming, but I can find no other evidence to support this.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 16, 2009)

This site says that "the remains of Estemmenosuchus have been found in a channel flood deposit, indicating that they probably frequented lowland and marshy areas." They might have taken the occasional dip...maybe they're like hippopotamuses? Big, ungainly, aggressive creatures with big teeth, living near water, primarily herbivorous but won't turn up their nose at carrion.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

Let's give it deadly charge with its butt attack, but I'm not a big fan of giving it a Swim speed. I do like the idea that they eat occasional carrion.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 16, 2009)

If we don't give it a Swim speed, I think it deserves a racial Swim bonus of +4 or so. Let's add marshes to the environment.
As for deadly charge, how much damage should that do? Double?

How about its feats? I'd suggest Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

+4 Swim bonus and marshes sound good to me. Double damage on deadly charge is standard.

I'd prefer Endurance and Great Fortitude for the feats, but like Imp. Bull's Rush as a bonus feat.


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2009)

Endurance, Great Fort, and Imp Bull Rush* sound great.  Skills, since we already have a Swim bonus, should probably Spot and/or Listen.*


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

Updated.

Listen 4, Spot 3?

Advancement?

CR?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

Spot 4, Listen 3. 5-10 HD (Large), 11-12 HD (Huge) because, why not? 

Deadly charge is usually double base damage plus 1.5 times Str, so 2d6+10. 

CR 3? It's better than a bison, but worse than a dire boar.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 16, 2009)

Listen 4, Spot 3, and I agree with the CR of 3 and the advancement.

Shade, you missed the flavor text again - it's in this post. 



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> An adult esteme*nn*osuchus is about 10 feet long and weighs around 1 ton.
> 
> Deadly Charge (Ex): When an esteme*nn*osuchus charges, its butt attack does 2d6+14 points of damage.
> 
> Skills: An esteme*nn*osuchus has a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks .




Also, Este*mm*enosuchus is spelled with 2 M's, not two N's.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

Updated.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 16, 2009)

Shade, I guess you were writing a post so you may not have noticed what i said above - 

You missed the flavor text again - it's in this post. 



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> An adult esteme*nn*osuchus is about 10 feet long and weighs around 1 ton.
> 
> Deadly Charge (Ex): When an esteme*nn*osuchus charges, its butt attack does 2d6+14 points of damage.
> 
> Skills: An esteme*nn*osuchus has a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks .




Also, Este*mm*enosuchus is spelled with 2 M's, not two N's.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

Updated.  Anything left?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

They look finished to me. Rhyncosaurs next?


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

Sounds good.

*RHYNCHOSAUR*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 1-20
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 9”
HIT DICE: 1 hp to 2 HD
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 (bite)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil to 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
SIZE: S to M (up to 3’ long)

Rhynchosaurs are lizardlike reptiles from the Triassic, where they may be extremely abundant in places. They are herbivores, some up to the size of a pig. With its large body, sprawling legs, and beaked head, a rhynchosaur may be envisioned as a large, barrel-shaped iguana with a parrotlike beak. Rhynchosaurs eat seeds and fruits, but they bite if molested. They vary with size as follows:

HIT DICE: to ¼ ½ 1 2
DAMAGE: Nil 1 1-2 1-4
SIZE: S(2-3) M(4) M(5) M(6)


Rhynchosaur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

So, let's go for a 1/2 HD (small) with advancement to 1 HD (Small), 2 HD (Medium)?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 16, 2009)

That works. I can't find too many details on specific species, so let's just make it generic.

I'd like to use the following ability scores: Str 7, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
I generated these by upsizing a lizard to Small. To bring its Armor Class to 14 (as the original) it would have a +3 natural armor bonus.

Unrelated to our conversions but related to prehistoric animals, I've created statistics for the pareiasaur Scutosaurus and posted them on the WotC forums: Here


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## GrayLinnorm (Jan 16, 2009)

The best known rhynocsaur is probably the tuatara.
Edit: Never mind, the tuatara is a rhynchocephalian, not a rhynchosaur.


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## freyar (Jan 18, 2009)

That seems kind of like a lot of natural armor for something Small.  What about Dex 15, +2 natural?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 18, 2009)

Actually, i forgot about their size bonus (they're Small), so they only need +2 natural armor and +1 dex to add up to 14.

Rhyncosaur
Small Animal
Hit Dice: ½d8 (2 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+1 size, +1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-6
Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d3-2)
Full Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d3-2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent?
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +1
Abilities: Str 7, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: 4 points
Feats: Weapon Finesse (B), 1 more
Environment: x
Organization: Solitary, pair, or herd (5-20)
Challenge Rating: ¼?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 1 HD (Small); 2 HD (Medium)

I'll return to finish the flavor text.


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2009)

Looking good, except it's "Rhync*h*osaur", correct?

I'd say yes to scent.  CR 1/4 seems accurate.

Listen and Spot for skills?  Maybe Survival?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 20, 2009)

Listen, Spot and Hide all seem pretty reasonable to me.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 20, 2009)

Lol I just realized I misspelled it! I don't know why, but for some reason I just keep wanting to omit the last H.

Those are fine for the skills, how about its feat?

Here's some basic flavor text:

_This pudgy lizard-like creature has a short, triangular head and a bird-like beak._

Rhynchosaurs are small, abundant archosauromorph reptiles. These stocky creatures are herbivores, using their beaks to make quick work of tough plants.

These statistics describe a small rhynchosaur of about three feet in length; the largest known rhynchosaurs grow to lengths of about six feet.

Combat
Rhynchosaurs will bite if significantly disturbed.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 20, 2009)

How about Iron Will or Great Fortitude?


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

I think all that remains is Environment.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 20, 2009)

Warm forest and plains?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 20, 2009)

OK.
What's next?


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2009)

Camelids, anyone?

*Camel, giant*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate plains
FREQUENCY: Common
ORGANIZATION: Herd
DIET: Herbivore
NO. APPEARING: 1-20
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 7
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 or 2
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1-6 or 2-8/2-8
SIZE: L (11. tall)
MORALE: Unreliable (3)
XP VALUE: 420

The giant camel looked much like modern species, except that it did not have a fatty hump. It was a grazer on Pleistocene plains, standing taller than the mastodons around it. If domesticated, the giant camel can carry up to 800 lbs. at full speed or 1,600 lbs. at half speed.

Combat: The giant camel attacks with a bite or two hooves, but cannot use both in one round.

Habitat/Society: Giant camels live in herds on temperate prairies, with habits similar to other herd animals. They tend to flee predators who come too close, but otherwise ignore them. As large herbivores, giant camels occupy a middle niche in the food chain. The young are taken by many carnivores, but only large carnivores can bring down an adult.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #167 (1991).

*ALTICAMELUS/Aepycamelus*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 2-8
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 18.
HIT DICE: 5
1 bite or 1 trample
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4 or 1-6/1-6

This odd-looking Miocene relative of the modern camel looked more than a little like a giraffe. Alticamelus had long legs and a very long neck, placing its head 10' off the ground. Like giraffes, Alticamelus probably lived in open forests.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #137 (1988).

We can expand this to other camelids, such as Titanotylopus and Oxydactylus.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 20, 2009)

Well, camels are already Large. Giraffes are Large too--and these mostly had height going for them. 7 HD, strip out the "permanent secondary weapon" thing, give them stampede?


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2009)

Sounds good.

Also, Titanotylopus is 11-1/2 feet tall at the shoulder, so we might be able to fudge it up to Huge.

I don't believe a dire camel has been done yet, so we could always do one of those "inspired by" conversions.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 20, 2009)

Huge dire camel and large giant camel?


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2009)

Sounds great!

Stats for existing camels:

Camel: Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 4
Camel, Dromedary: Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 4
Camel, Two-Humped: Str 18, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 4
Camel, War:  Str 18, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 5, gains two hoof attacks

The last three are from Sandstorm, and all three have the following additional ability:

Sure Feet (Ex): War camels have broad feet that help them travel easily over sand and similar loose surfaces. They treat shallow sand as normal terrain and deep sand as shallow sand. See Sand Travel, page 18 of Sandstorm, for descriptions of shallow and deep sand.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 20, 2009)

Well, the ur-cameloids weren't necessarily in sandy conditions, but Titanotylopus did have the true camel-toe. I think we can drop the sandwalking for the giant camel, but keep it for the dire. 

We should also do something about how they require less food and water than other creatures of their size. I don't know why Sandstorm dropped camel intelligence to 1.


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## RavinRay (Jan 21, 2009)

_Sandstorm_ doesn't have a dire camel, but it does have a dire giraffe, the camelopardalis IIRC, which was meant for desert environments. As demiurge pointed out, some camels like _Alticamelus_ weren't desert mammals, so maybe they didn't have any special starvation and thirst adaptations, but the dire camel could. _Alticamelus_ is on the back flap cover of one of my prehistory books, done by the late legendary artist Zdenek Burian.

Maybe one of the _Sandstorm_ writers got spat on by an irritated camel and dumbed down their Int as revenge.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 21, 2009)

RavinRay said:


> Maybe one of the _Sandstorm_ writers got spat on by an irritated camel and dumbed down their Int as revenge.




*giggle*

Well certainly Titanotylopus is bigger than a modern camel, so we should give it better Str. Let's take the war camel abilities and bump the Str up to 20 or more.


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## Shade (Jan 22, 2009)

RavinRay said:


> Maybe one of the _Sandstorm_ writers got spat on by an irritated camel and dumbed down their Int as revenge.




That reminded me of Conan's experience in one of the Conan movies.  

So...

Alticamelus = use giraffe stats?

Giant Camel (Titanotylopus):  Str 22, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 5?  Give it hoof attacks like the war camel, or stick with bite only?  No surefooted ability.

Dire Camel:  Str 26, Dex 16, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 5?  Retain surefooted ability.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 22, 2009)

I think "stamp" is a better wording than "hoof", and I don't see any reason why the giant camel shouldn't get 'em.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 22, 2009)

I think Titanotylopus should get forefoot attacks no matter what we call them. I like the ability scores.


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## Shade (Jan 22, 2009)

I'm still a bit hazy on the associations.

Am I correct in assuming that giant camel = Titanotylopus, dire camel = no real world-equivalent, and Alticamelus isn't unique enough to warrant conversion?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 22, 2009)

Titanotylopus is the giant camel. There is no real-world equivalent of a dire camel.

Also, Aepycamelus (or Alticamelus if you prefer) is in a third-party supplement called Animal Archives: Prehistoric Animals I, a PDF by Blackdirge Publishing.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 22, 2009)

Shade, I'm with you on this one.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 23, 2009)

Here's what I've come up with. I know that the flavor text is a bit short...the Wikipedia article is mostly about its anatomy and I don't have Zoo Tycoon 2 installed on my laptop.

Camel, Giant (Titanotylopus)
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 7d8+28 (59 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+15
Attack: Bite +10 melee (1d6+6)
Full Attack: Bite +10 melee (1d6+6) and two stamps +5 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +3
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 5 
Skills: 10 points
Feats: 3
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Solitary or herd (5-20)
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: -

_This camel is easily the size of a giraffe. Its limbs and neck are stretched out like a giraffe's but it is otherwise built like a camel, complete with a small hump._

The giant camel is a larger cousin of the modern camel, though it lives in grasslands rather than deserts.

Combat
Like a modern camel, giant camels will spit if they feel threatened. If forced into a physical confrontation, giant camels will bite and kick their attacker.


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2009)

We're off to a good start.

Let's bump the speed to 50 ft. like the standard camel and war camel.

How about 10 ft. reach with the bite, since it has a long neck?

Demiurge recommended stampede upthread...any objections?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 23, 2009)

10ft reach with the bite sounds good. 

Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Multiattack?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 23, 2009)

10ft reach with the bite sounds good. 

Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Multiattack?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 23, 2009)

Those are all good. Let's go with Listen and Spot for the skills.

Advancement 8-12 HD (Large), 13-14 HD (Huge)?

When we're done with the camels, I request that we convert Sarkastodon.


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2009)

_Oh, sure, like we'd convert Sarkastodon_.   (Sorry, couldn't resist being sarcastic with a name like that  )

Added to Homebrews.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 23, 2009)

Shade said:


> _Oh, sure, like we'd convert Sarkastodon_.   (Sorry, couldn't resist being sarcastic with a name like that  )





Now all we need is its weight and CR. 

One resource I found says it weighs "quite a bit more than one ton." One and a half tons maybe? CR 4?


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2009)

That sounds about right.  It appears on par with a dire boar.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 23, 2009)

Damn! I was beaten to the Sarkastodon joke!

Agreed to CR 4.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 23, 2009)

Shouldn't the stamps be +8? (instead of +7)


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2009)

Good catch.  Updated.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 23, 2009)

Move on to dire camel?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 24, 2009)

OK.

The ability scores that Shade suggested for the dire camel were Str 26, Dex 16, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 5. How many hit dice should it have?


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## Shade (Jan 27, 2009)

A quick glance through the various dire creatures seems to indicate 14 HD as a starting point for Huge dire creatures.  Wanna use 14 HD?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 27, 2009)

Sure!


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 27, 2009)

OK. Let's get started.


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 28, 2009)

Elephants have +7 natural armor, which I think is about right. 

Perhaps we should give it some sort of a spit attack? Blinding and/or sickening?


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2009)

Maybe Power Attack and Imp Overrun for the feats?  I don't know why, but I kind of see these as just trampling over people.

Edit: if we take demiurge' s suggestion of a spit attack, I could go with Iron Will and Ability Focus.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 28, 2009)

I'd be happy dropping Alertness for Power Attack, Point Blank Shot, Ability Focus (spit). I'm seeing the spit as a ranged touch attack.


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2009)

So, it's five feats should be Ability Focus (spit), Endurance, Multiattack, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack?

Is this what you had in mind?

Spit (Ex):  A dire camel can launch spittle as a ranged touch attack to a maximum range of x feet.  A struck creature is blinded and sickened for 1 round.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 28, 2009)

If it has Ability Focus with the spit ability, shouldn't the ability allow a saving throw? Or do ranged touch attacks allow saving throws of any sort? (Certainly a poison would, and some things _can_ shoot out their poison...)
The range should be 30 feet. All the things that I looked at in the MM had 30 feet as the maximum range for ranged touch attacks.
Its Will save looks too small for a Dire Animal. It should be +10.


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2009)

Good point.  Demiurge probably intended a save, and my mind probably got caught up in the "spells that require touch attacks don't have saving throws" nonsense.  

Good catch on the Will save as well.  I often forget that animals sometimes get good Will saves.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 28, 2009)

If struck, sickened, save or blinded. Can do it 3/day?


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## freyar (Jan 29, 2009)

Sounds about right.


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## RavinRay (Jan 29, 2009)

If ordinary camels are bad enough with their spit, _dire_ camels ought to be much worse. So give it a sickening/blinding spit by all means!


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

Revising...

Spit (Ex): Three times per day, a dire camel can launch spittle as a ranged touch attack to a maximum range of 30 feet. A struck creature is sickened for 1 round, and must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be blinded for 1dx rounds.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 30, 2009)

1d4?


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> 1d4?



That sounds about right to me.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 17 ranks

Advancement: x


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2009)

Spot 9, Listen 8?

15-42 HD (Huge)?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 30, 2009)

Spot, Listen and Survival might be wise, so it can find water in the desert more easily.


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2009)

Makes sense.  Spot 5, Listen 5, Survival 7?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 30, 2009)

OK.
It's a desert creature, so its environment should be Warm deserts. (It still says "temperate plains" as a cut-and-paste from the giant camel)


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

Updated.

15 feet tall at the shoulder, 5 tons?

Organization: Solitary or herd (5-20)?

Challenge Rating: 8?  It falls between a CR 7 dire elk and a CR 8 dire tiger, but compares favorably to the CR 8 dire tortoise.

Did we want to give them trample or stampede, which I believe we discussed upthread?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 30, 2009)

I like it all.
Let's give it another special attack to put it solidly at CR 8. I'm not sure whether I like trample or stampede more, but I'm leaning a bit towards trample.


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2009)

I agree that trample seems to fit their personality better.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

Updated.

Trample damage?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 30, 2009)

Trample damage of double stamp? So 2d8+(Strx1.5)?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 30, 2009)

Exactly what I was thinking.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

Updated.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jan 31, 2009)

OK, let's start on Sarkastodon.

Here's the flavor text I came up with for it:

_This brown-furred predatory beast is nearly the size of a rhinoceros. It resembles a melding of bear and cat, with a leonine face and a bear-like body terminating in a long, furry tail._

The bear-like sarkastodon is a creodont, the creodonts being the dominant mammalian land predators prior to the carnivorans. Larger than a grizzly bear, the sarkastodon preys upon Large herbivores like brontotheres, though it may occasionally eat plant matter (and the unlucky adventurer) as well. Sarkastodons are an ever-present danger in lost lands, attracted to travelers' food and garbage and attacking without provocation or warning when confronted.

A sarkastodon is 10 feet long (excluding the tail, which is about one-half to two-thirds as long as the body) and 6 feet tall at the shoulder, weighing around 1-½ tons.

Combat
A sarkastodon begins combat by swatting its foe with its forepaws, moving in to bite after knocking its foe down.
(Because it's so bear-like I anticipated that we'd be giving it either improved grab or trip.)


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## Shade (Feb 3, 2009)

Here's the original writeup:

*Sarkastodon (long-tailed bear)*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate plains
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
DIET: Omnivore
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 9
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1-12/1-12/1-12
SIZE: L (10. long)
MORALE: Elite (14)
XP VALUE: 2,000

This carnivore was the largest of the creodonts, an early order of carnivores that included Hyaenodon. Sarkastodon looked much like a bear with a long tail; it was larger than even the cave bear.

Combat: Sarkastodon fights with its paws and a bite.

Habitat/Society: Sarkastodon is a solitary predator, living much like a bear. Its prey includes titanotheres and rhinoceroses, but it also feeds on roots, wild fruit, and rodents. Sarkastodon is at the top of the food chain, having no natural enemies.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #167 (1991).


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Feb 3, 2009)

The ability scores from some large bears:
Brown Bear/Polar Bear: Str 27, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Dire Bear: Str 31, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10 ("A typical dire bear is 12 feet long and weighs as much as 8,000 pounds.")
Dire Polar Bear: Str 39, Dex 11, Con 23, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10 (". . .averaging almost 20 feet in length and weighing as much as 15,000 pounds.")

I'll also throw in the dire wolf for comparison:
Dire Wolf: Str 25, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10 ("Dire wolves are . . . about 9 feet long and weigh some 800 pounds.")


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2009)

Hmmm...

I always thought that the dire bear was essentially the 3e version of the cave bear.  If that's the case, sarkastodon should be "bigger and better".  The size, however, doesn't support that argument.

Maybe slightly stronger and hardier (considering its preferred prey)?
Str 33, Dex 13, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10?

Also, I think it needs a HD boost from the original.   Dire bear is 12 HD, and remains Large up to 16 HD.  Maybe 14-15 HD?


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2009)

15HD sounds reasonable.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 5, 2009)

15 HD and slightly better ability scores than the dire bear... I like lots.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Feb 5, 2009)

Here's what I've come up with.

Sarkastodon
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 15d8+75 (142 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +7 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +11/+26
Attack: Claw +21 melee (xdx+11)
Full Attack: 2 claws +21 melee (xdx+11) and bite +x melee (xdx+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Trip?
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +10, Will +x
Abilities: Str 33, Dex 13, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: 18 points
Feats: 6
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: -

_This brown-furred predatory beast is nearly the size of a rhinoceros. It resembles a melding of bear and cat, with a leonine face and a bear-like body terminating in a long, furry tail._

The bear-like sarkastodon is a creodont, the creodonts being the dominant mammalian land predators prior to the carnivorans. Larger than a grizzly bear, the sarkastodon preys upon Large herbivores like brontotheres, though it may occasionally eat plant matter (and the unlucky adventurer) as well. Sarkastodons are an ever-present danger in lost lands, attracted to travelers' food and garbage and attacking without provocation or warning when confronted.

A sarkastodon is 10 feet long (excluding the tail, which is about one-half to two-thirds as long as the body) and 6 feet tall at the shoulder, weighing around 1-½ tons. 


Combat
A sarkastodon begins combat by swatting its foe with its forepaws, moving in to bite after knocking its foe down. 

?(Trip (Ex): A sarkastodon that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip its opponent (+16 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the sarkastodon.)


I improved the land speed to 40 feet and the AC to 17 to match the dire bear. Are we going to give it a good Will save like a dire animal?

Base damage for the attacks?

Feat suggestions: Alertness, Endurance, INA bite, INA claw, Iron Will, Multiattack
(Drop Iron Will if we give it saves like a dire animal, and instead give something like Power Attack)


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 5, 2009)

Unfortunately, your Sarkastodon does not actually resemble the real beast--neither does the 1e statblock. It's a creodont, which means that it has very hoof-like claws and flat feet. In addition, the placement of the carnassial teeth meant that creodonts couldn't tear up plant matter as effectively as a true Carnivora, making it exclusively a meat-eater (so we should cut those references to it eating the occasional plant matter). 

So, as a creodont, Sarkastodon should be slower (say, back down to 30ft) and should have poor claw attacks, if any at all. I would prefer no claws. We should reflect its status as a bone-crusher by making its bite primary and with an SA (and note that I am all for more interesting mundane animals). Something like...

Bonecrushing Bite (Ex): Sarkastodon's jaws are immensely powerful, and can crush bone to pulp. On a successful critical hit, a Sarkastodon also deals 1d4 points of Str damage.

In addition, I am morally opposed to the use of the Improved Natural Attack feat in basic creatures--we're building the thing from the ground up, we should be able to set the damage wherever we damn well please! Improved Critical (bite) strikes me as a good feat for Sarkastodon, especially if we give it bonecrushing bite. 

I'm at work at the moment so I can't check my books--are the dire animals in Frostburn (mammoth, glyptodon, smilodon et al) given good Will saves?


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2009)

I like the Bonecrushing Bite, though I don't know a thing about creodonts.  

I also look down on Improved Natural Attack.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Feb 5, 2009)

Bears are plantigrades too.

Wikipedia claims that "The fossilized teeth of Sarkastodon show that it ate a variety of foods, and probably led a lifestyle in some ways like that of modern brown bears."

All the pictures of Sarkastodon that I can find show it with bear-like claws, but I can't find any pictures of its skeleton.

Yes, the dire animals in Frostburn get good Will saves. All dire animals get good Will saves.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 5, 2009)

That Wikipedia entry also doesn't cite its sources, and goes on to say (as any accurate report on creodonts would, including the Wikipedia entry on creodontia, which _does_ cite) that its teeth would limit its dietary options.

Fair enough on bears being plantigrade. I still prefer a slower speed, though.

Sarkastodon is only known from a skull. Other creodonts known from more complete fossils show stubby little claws.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 5, 2009)

Let's think about Sarkastodon from a behavioral perspective, in addition to an anatomical one, for insights into statting it.

Despite its superficially bear-like appearance, it had bone-crushing jaws more like a hyena and was big enough to tackle the megafauna of its time, like brontotheres and giant rhinos. Now, there's a population of lions in Savuti, Botswana, that specializes in eating elephants. They're on film, in the Planet Earth series. What the Savuti lions do is they crowd around watering holes in the dark. Elephants have poor low-light vision, so the lions spook them with roaring--if an elephant bolts, the lions pile onto it, bring it to the ground, and start eating it while it's still alive.

What does that say for Sarkastodon? Well, I like the trip suggestion. Since it's not very fast (regardless of whether we settle for 30 or 40 feet), we should give it a racial bonus to Hide and Move Silenty checks, and/or the Stealthy feat. We could leave the spooking the herd as mere flavor-text, or we could give it a roar that induces fear.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

freyar said:


> I like the Bonecrushing Bite, though I don't know a thing about creodonts.
> 
> I also look down on Improved Natural Attack.




Ditto here, on both counts.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Feb 6, 2009)

OK, well then, this is a stupid thing to be arguing about. Feel free to make any of those changes you mentioned.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 6, 2009)

Thoughts on racial bonuses to Hide and Move Silently and/or the roar ability?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Feb 6, 2009)

A +2 bonus is reasonable, +4 at the absolute most. Not too sure about the roar ability, though - the point of Move Silently is _not_ to spook your target.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 7, 2009)

Well, the idea being get close enough stealthily, spook, make them panic and lose control, strike. Pretty common among modern carnivores, with both cats and wolves panicking the herd to pick off choice prey.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Feb 7, 2009)

But wolves and lions are both back hunters - or do solitary predators do this as well?
Thinking about it again, I realize that you can do pretty much the same thing in Spore if you play as a carnivorous creature, but you still have to be fast enough to catch your prey once you've spooked it. (Then again, real carnivores do generally go for the little sick ones, so...)

I guess my final point is that if we give it both Bonecrushing Bite and Trip, I'm not sure I want to give it another ability.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 7, 2009)

Fair enough. Roar was just a suggestion. I think it's robust enough without it. Unless Shade and/or freyar are in favor...?

Sarkastodon, v2
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 15d8+75 (142 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +7 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +11/+26
Attack: Bite +21 melee (1d12+16)
Full Attack: Bite +21 melee (1d12+16) 
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Bonecrushing bite, trip
Special Qualities: Dire, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +10, Will +10
Abilities: Str 33, Dex 13, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: 18 points
Feats: 6
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: -

This brown-furred predatory beast is nearly the size of a rhinoceros. It resembles a melding of bear and cat, with a leonine face and a bear-like body terminating in a long, furry tail.

Although it superficially resembles a bear or cat, Sarkastodon is a creodont, a seperate lineage of carnivorous mammal. One of the largest carnivorous mammals ever to live, Sarkastodon specializes on hunting enormous prey, such as brontotheres and Indricotherium. Its bite can crush bone and its stomach is acidic enough to digest it, leaving little left for the scavengers.

A sarkastodon is 10 feet long (excluding the tail, which is about one-half to two-thirds as long as the body) and 6 feet tall at the shoulder, weighing around 1-½ tons.

Combat
A sarkastodon begins combat from ambush, pulling prey to the ground with trip and beginning to eat while its prey still lives. 

Bonecrushing Bite (Ex): Sarkastodon's jaws are immensely powerful, and can crush bone to pulp. On a successful critical hit, a Sarkastodon also deals 1d4 points of Str damage

Trip (Ex): A sarkastodon that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip its opponent (+16 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the sarkastodon.)

Skills: A sarkastodon has a +4 racial bonus on all Hide and Move Silently checks.

I set bite damage at 1d12 because it's what the 1e version had, plus d12s don't get enough love. I suggest we split the skill points among Hide, Move Silently, Listen and Spot, perhaps with Hide and Move Silently getting 4 points and Listen and Spot 3.

Feat suggestions: Alertness, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Stealthy, Weapon Focus (bite)


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Feb 8, 2009)

I like the skills and feats


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## freyar (Feb 8, 2009)

This looks fine to me, too.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Feb 8, 2009)

It looks to me to be at least CR 8.

Advancement 16-18 HD (Large); 19-30 HD (Huge)?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 8, 2009)

Oh! I forgot an SQ:

Dire (Ex): Sarkastodon is considered to be a dire animal for the purposes of saving throws.

Your advancement suggestion looks good. About CR... 8 seems reasonable. It's got less hit points than a T. rex, but does more damage (am I the only one bothered that a dire bear has a higher Strength than a T. rex?).


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## freyar (Feb 9, 2009)

That does seem strange.  Really tells you how badly the dinosaurs were designed...


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2009)

Transferred to Homebrews.

And yeah, I agree about the odd superiority of dire mammals over dinosaurs.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 9, 2009)

So... are we done?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Feb 9, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> . . . the opponent cannot react to trip the sarkastodon.*)*



There's an extra closing parentheses at the end of the trip entry, probably a copy-and-paste mistake.



			
				demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Bonecrushing Bite (Ex): Sarkastodon's jaws are immensely powerful*,* and can crush bone to pulp. . . .




Also I don't think the comma here is necessary unless it says "and _they_ can crush bone to pulp."

Other than that, I think we're done. I'd like to continue with the prehistoric mammals.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2009)

I think so.  I'll throw the next one out here, but if anyone has further feedback on sarkastodon, we can definitely revisit it.

*Agriotherium (savannah bear)*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Savannah
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
DIET: Omnivore
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 8
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1-10/1-10/1-10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Hug
SIZE: L (10. high)
MORALE: Average (8-10)
XP VALUE: 2,000

Although bears do not now live in Africa, Agriotherium roamed the southern African plains of the Pleistocene. Paleontologists are not sure how it got there; no other bear fossils have been found elsewhere south of the Sahara. Agriotherium was a huge, primitive bear, slightly smaller than the cave bear, with a doglike head.

Combat: Like other bears, Agriotherium strikes with two paws and a bite. If either paw hits with an 18 or better, it also hugs for 3-18 hp damage. It fights for 2-5 rounds at 0 to -10 hp, but dies instantly from greater damage.

Habitat/Society: All bears are solitary, pairing briefly only to mate. The mother raises the cubs alone. Agriotherium does not hibernate, due to its warm climate. Being at the top of the food chain and having no natural enemies, this bear can bring down large game that is sick or wounded, but it usually feeds on plants and small animals.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #167 (1991).

Agriotherium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 9, 2009)

OK--this is a dire bear. I'd be alright with just calling it a version of dire bear... but let's see about differentiating it. 

How many HD did cave bears have in this edition?


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2009)

6+6, while polar bears have 8+8.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 10, 2009)

Huh. Cave bears were less than polar bears. Which... actually makes a lot of sense judging by the historical record. These guys, though, were almost to Sarkastodon levels with size. In fact, IPR's first Sarkastodon draft would probably be a pretty good place to start. Maybe raise Dex a bit and lower Str a touch. Give them ferocity as per a dire boar. Switch trip for Improved Grab... and rend?


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## freyar (Feb 10, 2009)

Seems almost like a constrict.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 10, 2009)

It does look like constriction, yes. But all bears could constrict in 2e.


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2009)

Like so?

*Agriotherium*
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 15d8+75 (142 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +7 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +11/+25
Attack: Claw +20 melee (xdx+10)
Full Attack: 2 claws +20 melee (xdx+10) and bite +15 melee (xdx+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Dire, ferocity, improved grab, rend
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +10, Will +10
Abilities: Str 31, Dex 15, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: 18 ranks
Feats: 6
Environment: Warm plains?
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: -

Dire (Ex): Agriotherium is considered to be a dire animal for the purposes of saving throws.

Ferocity (Ex): An agriotherium is such a tenacious combatant that it continues to fight without penalty even while disabled or dying.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an agriotherium must hit with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Rend (Ex): If an agriotherium hits with both claw attacks, it latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals an additional xdx+15 points of damage.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 10, 2009)

We could constrict rather than rend--do natural attacks that are listed as Improved Grapple deal damage every round in the grapple? I never can remember. I feel like WoTC's gone back and forth on that a few times.


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2009)

Yeah, they've definitely waffled on that one.

Here's the latest I could find...

"A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text)."

So it sounds like constrict is necessary to avoid additional grapple checks to deal damage.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 10, 2009)

Oh! OK. So... do we want to give it constrict, or just mention in its tactics that it uses additional grapple checks to deal damage?


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2009)

I kind of like the idea of a "bear hug" constrict, but I could also see the idea of just mentioning the extra grapple checks.


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2009)

I suppose the make-or-break question is whether we want the bear to be able to bite in the same round it uses its "bear hug".  If so, then we'll need constrict.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 11, 2009)

Doing more research... These were Hemicyonids, which are colloquially called "dog-bears". They were fast runners and possibly cooperative hunters, with body-proportions described as "tiger-like". In which case giving them Improved Grab and (?) Constrict would be fine, but I think we should boost the Speed to 50ft.


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2009)

Rather than Constrict, we could give it Chew or some similar thing where it does automatic bite damage every round it maintains a grapple.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 11, 2009)

I'm far more keen on chew than on constrict. Nice pick, freyar.


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2009)

Brilliant!

Added to Homebrews.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Feb 12, 2009)

What's with it having the flavor text for Sarkastodon!?

Unless any of you can come up with flavor text I'll have some posted tomorrow.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 12, 2009)

Because the stat-block was originally copy-pasta, that's why.

_This great beast looks like a bear with the proportions of a tiger. It runs towards you, a hungry gleam in its eyes._

Agriotherium is not a true bear, but rather a hemicyonid, close relatives of bears built for running. Rather than the omnivory of most bears, Agriotherium is a true carnivore, feeding mostly on the flesh of elephants, rhinos and other huge beasts, although it can and will scavenge and feed on fruits, grubs and honey. Agriotherium hunts in pairs or in small packs, and these groupings are very territorial--they are likely to view intrusions of humanoids into their ranges as a threat.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

Oops!  It was indeed a cut n' paste error.

Updated.

Claw and bite damage?

Skills: 18 ranks

Feats: 6


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2009)

Original damage was 1d10 each.  That's probably good for the claws, but it might be fun to bump the bite a little.  Maybe 1d12  or even 2d8.

Spot and Listen would probably be good skills.

Feats: Alertness, Run, Weapon Focus (claw), Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Awesome Blow?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Feb 12, 2009)

d12s don't get enough love , so let's use that for the bite damage. The skills and feats you selected look good.

Also how about we call it Worry instead of Chew? The fhorge's (from FF) Worry ability has exactly the same effect but with different wording:



			
				3rd edition Fiend Folio said:
			
		

> *Worry (Ex):* A fhorge that successfully gets a hold on an opponent with its improved grab ability shakes the victim violently back and forth. This attack deals bite damage each round until the victim breaks free, the fhorge is slain, or the victim dies.


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2009)

Worry is probably what I was thinking of.  I think Chew is what we call it when something "Swallows Whole" but only holds the victim in its mouth.  I think we got that from the Milivorn (sp?) from either FF or MM3.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

The only problem with worry, is that it implies improved grab with the bite.  We've currently given it to the claws.  Do we want to extend improved grab to all attacks, and stick with worry?  Or go with one of those "free bite attack against grappled victim/if both claws hit" abilities?

Let's do Multiattack instead of Weapon Focus.  The rest of the skills and feats look good.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 13, 2009)

I like chew. Grabs with the claws, does automatic bit damage.


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I like chew. Grabs with the claws, does automatic bit damage.



That ability sounds like what we want, but I can't help but think that we've called something else Chew (ie, the not-quite-Swallow Whole).  What about maybe "Chomp"?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Feb 13, 2009)

or Gnaw or Crunch?


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2009)

I like "gnaw".  

The chew ability, I believe, we obtained from one of Demiurge's World of Kong conversions.  I'm not sure if its been used by WotC.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 13, 2009)

Gnaw sounds good to me.


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2009)

Like a dog with a bone.  I like it!


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2009)

Updated.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Feb 13, 2009)

Now we need its CR and advancement. We also need the rend damage.

Its CR looks like about a 9 to me. It has more natural and special attacks than the Sarkastodon.

Advancement 16-24 HD (Large); 25-30 HD (Huge)?

Am I right in guessing that the rend damage should be 2d10+15? How is rend damage usually determined?


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2009)

That all looks about right to me.

And, based off the troll, rend damage equals double claw damage plus Str and 1/2.   I've seen exceptions before, but none come to mind at the moment.


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2009)

That all looks about right to me, too.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 13, 2009)

We're keeping rend? Alright, this is one nasty bear! With that, CR 9 seems completely appropriate.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Feb 15, 2009)

I also notice that we don't have flavor text for Combat. Otherwise, it looks like we're finished.


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## Relique du Madde (Feb 16, 2009)

Reported


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 16, 2009)

Relique du Madde said:


> Reported




...what?


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## Echohawk (Feb 16, 2009)

The spam between InsanePsychoRabbit's post and Relique du Madde posting "Reported". Which has since been deleted


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

Updated.

Since we figured them for potential pack hunters, add pack (3-x) to the organization line?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 17, 2009)

3-6, probably. Nothing too big--they'd have to bring in a lot of food to survive in large numbers.


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

Sounds good.

Moving on...

*BEAR, SHORT-FACED*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 15.
HIT DICE: 7+7
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claws and 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8/1-8/1-8
SPECIAL ATTACK: Hug for 2-12 if both
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-

All bears in the AD&D game rule books also lived in the late Pleistocene. Brown and black bears roamed temperate and boreal forests, polar bears the arctic, grizzlies the plains, and cave bears the mountain valleys. Cave bears were almost totally vegetarian, despite what the Monster Manual says, but that did not lessen their ferocity if disturbed.

There was a little-known bear that roamed the subglacial plains of the Pleistocene: the short-faced bear, Arctodus simus. It stood twice a grizzly's height, mainly because of the bear.s long legs, and had a short muzzle. If encountered, it fights down to -9 hp, as does a cave bear.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #137 (1988).

Arctodus simus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 17, 2009)

I wouldn't call them "little known"...

Modding the last one might be a good idea. Reduce the HD a bit (let's say... around polar bear level), but keep the speed and gnaw. There's the hypothesis out there that they engaged in a lot of kleptoparasitism, scaring other predators away from their kills. 

Fun fact! The small, unassuming spectacled bear in South America is the closest living relative of the short faced bears.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

So, 8 HD, like polar bear?   Large?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 18, 2009)

8 or 10 HD. Definitely Large.


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2009)

> If encountered, it fights down to -9 hp, as does a cave bear.



Ferocity as dire boar?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 18, 2009)

Ferocity sounds good. The kleptoparasitism thing suggests the Roar ability, which I gave to Nefundusaurus, which we used as the baseline for some crusotarsan conversions over in the first version of this thread, but ditched roar. So, again...

Frightful Roar (Ex): As a standard action, a nefundusaurus can give a mighty roar. All creatures within 30ft of the roaring nefundusaurus must make a DC 13 Will save or be frightened for 1 round and shaken for 1d4 rounds after that. On a successful save, the creature is merely shaken for one round.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

Sounds fun to me.  It fits the usual "scary bear" fantasy niche.


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2009)

Works for me too.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Feb 19, 2009)

How about 10 HD?

I like the Frightful Roar ability.

Edit: Yay! My 100th post!


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2009)

InsanePsychoRabbit said:


> How about 10 HD?
> 
> I like the Frightful Roar ability.
> 
> Edit: Yay! My 100th post!




Sounds good, and congrats on the milestone!  

Let's figure out ability scores for this fella.

We gave Agriotherium Str 31, Dex 15, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10.

Dire bear has Str 31, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10.

Polar bear has Str 27, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Feb 20, 2009)

I think we should go with either the dire bear's or the Agriotherium's ability scores over the polar bear's, and for whatever reason I'm leaning towards the dire bear's.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm fine with that.  The scores are extremely close .


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 21, 2009)

I think polar bear. It sounds like they were actually pretty gracile (slender and fragile) for their size. We should bump the Dex up to 15 and the Cha to at least 10, though.


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Skills: 13
Feats: 4


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 23, 2009)

Ability Focus (frightful roar), Endurance, Multiattack, Track

Points in Listen, Spot and Survival. 4, 4 and 5, respectively?


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## freyar (Feb 24, 2009)

Skills and feats sound right.

CR 6?  Advancement: 11-15 HD (Large), 16-20 HD (Huge)?


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2009)

Updated.

Environment?

Organization: Solitary, pair, or family (3-5)?

A giant short-faced bear is x feet long and x feet tall at the shoulder, weighing around x pounds.

Anyone want to writeup some descripition, flavor text, and tactics?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Feb 24, 2009)

OK, what information I can scare up on the size of Arctodus simus states that it's a bit over 5 feet tall at the shoulder on all fours, and when upright is 11 feet tall or more. It also says it weighs 1,800 pounds. Can't find anything about its length on all fours right now, but based on the pictures I can find I guess it's about 8 feet long from nose to bum.

Cold and temperate plains for environment?

Here's the flavor text I've come up with:

_This immense, long-legged bear has a face like that of a mastiff. It rears up on its hind legs, standing as tall as a fire giant, and lets out a mighty roar._

Among the bears, the giant short-faced bear is second only to the dire bear in sheer size and ferocity. Other animals know to stay out of the way of one of these beasts - its roar alone is usually enough to drive smaller carnivores from their kills, and anything that refuses to heed its warning faces its deadly claws and teeth.

Combat
Before entering combat proper, a giant short-faced bear attempts to scare off any smaller creatures with its roar. A giant short-faced bear attacks by tearing at opponents with its claws.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2009)

Looks great.  Updated.

Finished?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 26, 2009)

I think so.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Feb 26, 2009)

OK, what's next?


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## Shade (Feb 27, 2009)

Since we've wrapped up the "bears", lets tackle Titanoboa.

This isn't a conversion, per se, but we can easily tie it to any of the giant snakes.

By its listed size, it should start at Gargantuan, and probably advance to Colossal.

We can probably upsize the giant constrictor snake and make some modifications.  The dire snake probably won't work, as it combines traits of vipers with constrictors.

Here's a giant constrictor snake upsized to Gargantuan and 25 HD (the mid-range of its usual Gargantuan advancement)....


Snake, Giant Constrictor
Gargantuan Animal
Hit Dice: 25d8+75 (187 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), climb 20 ft., swim 20 ft.
Armor Class: 17 (–4 size, +3 Dex, +8 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +18/+41
Attack: Bite +25 melee (2d6+16)
Full Attack: Bite +25 melee (2d6+16)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Constrict 2d6+16, improved grab
Special Qualities: Scent
Saves: Fort +17, Ref +17, Will +9
Abilities: Str 33, Dex 17, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: 28 (giant constrictor has 8 ranks in Hide, 2 ranks in Climb, Listen and Spot, and 1 in Swim)
Feats: 9 (2 can be epic)[giant constrictor has Alertness, Endurance, Skill Focus (Hide), Toughness]
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 9
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 26–33 HD (Gargantuan); 34+ (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: —

Constrict (Ex): On a successful grapple check, a titanoboa deals 2d6+16 points of damage.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a titanoboa must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Skills: Snakes have a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. A snake can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. Snakes use either their Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher. A snake has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Feb 27, 2009)

O_O whoa...that's a big snake. It makes my pet _Elaphe guttata guttata_ look like a _Leptotyphlops carlae_. Are there any feats that can improve its Constrict ability?

(I know you upsized it to Gargantuan but under the Size/Type line it still says Huge.)


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## Shade (Feb 27, 2009)

Fixed it.

Hmmm...no core feats to improve constriction, but nothing says we can't give it a bit of a damage boost if we'd like.

I definitely want to get rid of Toughness.  What a worthless filler feat.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 27, 2009)

We should improve its natural armor a bit, but other than that, looks pretty good!


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Feb 27, 2009)

Toughness...yick.
If anything I have two non-core feats that might be useful.

I found a feat called Strong Coils in Dragon 313 that improves constrict damage by one step.
Also I'm quite fond of the Improved Toughness feat, and so are the people on the WotC prehistoric creatures thread I frequent. I forget which book that is in, but it requires a +2 base Fort save and improves hit points by +1 per Hit Die.


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## Shade (Feb 27, 2009)

I like those two feats (especially Improved Toughness), but we try to stick to stuff in the SRD since we have such high visibility (due to the association with ENWorld).

We wouldn't want to get a "cease-and-desist" after all this time!

We can occasionally "fudge" a bit and turn portions of non-SRD feats into special abilities and the like, though.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 27, 2009)

OK, so no Improved Toughness. We could give it Epic Toughness, however.

Feats: Alertness, Cleave, Endurance, Power Attack, Skill Focus (hide), Stealthy, Weapon Focus (bite)

Epic Feats: Epic Prowess, Epic Toughness

Since it's so huge, we may want to consider giving it swallow whole.


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## Shade (Feb 27, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

I'm fine with swallow whole.  Here's the similarly-sized purple worm's writeup...

Swallow Whole (Ex): A purple worm can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of a smaller size than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 2d8+12 points of crushing damage plus 8 points of acid damage per round from the worm’s gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 17). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Gargantuan worm’s interior can hold 2 Large, 8 Medium, 32 Small, 128 Tiny, or 512 Diminutive or smaller opponents.

Do those amounts (other than the AC) work here?

Speaking of AC, suggested boost to natural armor?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 27, 2009)

+12 natural armor, for a total AC of 21?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Feb 28, 2009)

I'm supporting Swallow Whole on the basis that a snake could swallow something much smaller than it (2 size categories) rather quickly. I know it takes my Tiny corn snake to a long time to swallow a Diminutive mouse, but a Small young boa constrictor might make quicker work of one.

(I think about the real world in terms of D&D. I'm weird.)


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## Cleon (Feb 28, 2009)

Shade said:


> Since we've wrapped up the "bears", lets tackle Titanoboa.
> 
> This isn't a conversion, per se, but we can easily tie it to any of the giant snakes.
> 
> ...




Just to play devil's advocate, I'd just use the regular giant constrictor snake stats, maybe with an extra HD or two if I was feeling mean/generous. Making it a Gargantuan 25 HD monster seems far too much for a realistic interpretation of _Titanoboa_. Going by the stats the snake (Grapple +41) could easily strangle an elephant (Grapple +26) or a _Tyrannosaurus rex_ (Grapple +30)!

I wouldn't base the size category on length alone, since that's for an "average" range of builds, not something as slender as a snake. The SRD purple worm is 80' long and Gargantuan, a _Titanoboa_ is half as long so could be Huge like a regular giant constrictor.

Furthermore, _Titanoboa_ is estimated to weigh 2500 pounds. That would put it in a Large creature's weight range.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 28, 2009)

Fair enough. D&D size categories are weird to things that aren't roughly square, like snakes.

Perhaps we should say "inspired by Titanoboa" for our mammoth constrictor?


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## freyar (Mar 1, 2009)

Hmm, good question.  If we're going to do this, maybe it makes more sense to go Huge but a bunch of HD.  Or maybe I could go for "giant titanoboa."


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## Cleon (Mar 1, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Fair enough. D&D size categories are weird to things that aren't roughly square, like snakes.
> 
> Perhaps we should say "inspired by Titanoboa" for our mammoth constrictor?




No disagreement there, it was a bit easier to match real-world beasties size categories back in 3.0 when they separated space into Long and Tall, but that still caused confusion, and still didn't quite fit very long light critters like snakes into the right weight ranges.



freyar said:


> Hmm, good question. If we're going to do this, maybe it makes more sense to go Huge but a bunch of HD. Or maybe I could go for "giant titanoboa."




I'd stick to the current size & HD and just say its an unreasonably oversized constrictor, an example of the legendary 80-100 foot anacondas that yarn spinners say swim about the darkest reaches of the Amazon. There are plenty such creatures in fantasy entertainment, we could use it as is for the stats of the snake that King Kong fights in the 1976 remake.

Call it "Titanic Constrictor Snake" or something.

I fancy adding stats for a Behemoth Snake version suitable for epic campaigns (make it an Outsider; increase speed by 50% to 30 ft. in all categories; add 10 to its natural armour, Dex, Con and Cha; bump up its Int to 5; change its saves to all good; double its natural weapon damage; add spell resistance 30 or 34; give it more skills & skills points for being an Outsider; improve Challenge Rating to 18 or so)


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## Cleon (Mar 1, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> OK, so no Improved Toughness. We could give it Epic Toughness, however.
> 
> Feats: Alertness, Cleave, Endurance, Power Attack, Skill Focus (hide), Stealthy, Weapon Focus (bite)
> 
> ...




I'm a bit dubious about Weapon Focus (it's got a high enough attack it doesn't really need it) and Cleave (rarely used in play). I'd prefer Improved Natural Attack (bite) [_or Constrict, but I'm not sure that's legal_](for a reliable extra d6 damage) and Iron Will to help its weakest save.

Rather than Epic Toughness I'd suggest Great Constitution to bump its Con up to 18. That gives it an extra 25 hit points and +1 on Con saves, plus it scales with advancement. Far more useful in the long run.

Similarly Epic Strength for Str 34 gives it the same attack bonus nudge as Epic Prowess and improves its damage and Grapple too boot. Although I'm tempted to give my proposed Behemoth Epic Speed instead, since there's just something about a snake with 60 ft. movement which makes me chuckle malevolently. I'd have to swap one of its other feats [_probably Cleave_] for Run for that to be legal, though.

EDIT: Oh, and I'll throw in a vote for giving it Swallow Whole against creature two or more size categories smaller than itself.


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## Cleon (Mar 1, 2009)

Shade said:


> Snake, Giant Constrictor
> Gargantuan Animal
> Hit Dice: 25d8+75 (187 hp)
> Initiative: +3
> ...




As is traditional, some of these numbers don't seem to add up.

I make it that Grapple should be +46 (+18 base +16 Strength +12 size) and melee attack should be +30 (+18 base +16 Strength -4 size).

The rest of the stats looks fine.

EDIT: Gah! The strength bonus is +11 not +16, I got confused by the +16 damage bonuses including the 50% extra for it being the snake's sole attack. Better belay this post, the stats are fine as is.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 1, 2009)

I strongly opposed giving Improved Natural Attack to any base creature--we're designing the thing, we can give it whatever base damage we want! The suggestion for Iron Will, though, is a pretty good one.


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## Cleon (Mar 1, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I strongly opposed giving Improved Natural Attack to any base creature--we're designing the thing, we can give it whatever base damage we want! The suggestion for Iron Will, though, is a pretty good one.




That's reasonable. What do you think about Epic Strength and Epic Constitution? 

EDIT: I'm guessing you think the same rule applies since we can just tweak the raw stat up one if designing the beastie from scratch. I was approaching the monster as an advancement or modification of a giant constrictor snake base, in which case applying ability-modifying feats makes a bit more sense.


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## freyar (Mar 1, 2009)

Cleon said:


> That's reasonable. What do you think about Epic Strength and Epic Constitution?



My feeling about Great Str and Great Con is the same as about Imp Nat Attack: they're for customizing individuals (hence why I don't really like the Fast Healing feat for designing epic monsters, either).  I generally agree with demiurge that we should just design the base monster as desired.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 2, 2009)

Yeah, I think we could just adjust the snake's ability scores upwards a tad without using up feat slots.


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## Cleon (Mar 2, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Yeah, I think we could just adjust the snake's ability scores upwards a tad without using up feat slots.




Well in that case we should be aiming for feats that give it a greater range of options.

Hmm, Combat Reflexes is a good feat for a monster with a 15' reach, especially if it's a solo monster facing multiple foes. How about swapping that for Cleave?

If you like Iron Will, what about giving it Epic Will instead and giving it a different non-Epic feat. Blind-Fight strikes me as a good idea, since it may be facing _darkness_ or _invisibility_ using foes and the ability to "feel" the location of its opponents is thematically fitting for a snake.

That would leave it with one Epic-level feat slot to fill. I still don't much care for Epic Prowess or Epic Toughness, since they don't give a return we can't achieve by tweaking its Str or Con up one point. Maybe another save-boost with Epic Reflexes or Epic Fortitude? There are not that many useful epic feats is eligible for, we could give it Epic Skill Focus (hide) but we'd have to give it 20 ranks in Hide for it to be eligible which would only leave it 8 ranks for its other skills. Although it would make it an impressively sneaky creature for its size and CR. (20ranks+3dex+2feat+3feat+10epic+4racial-12size = +30 Hide!)

That would give it:

Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Endurance, Power Attack, Skill Focus (hide), Stealthy

Epic Feats: Epic Will, plus one more (Prow/Tough/Ref/Fort/Skill?)

EDIT: After mulling it over, giving it Epic Hide is starting to grow on me. It's a ridiculously oversized constrictor snake, so it probably lives by lying motionless until some elephant-sized animal wanders close enough for it to grab hold of. Therefore it needs to be stealthy enough that its prey doesn't notice a hundred foot long snake. A typical Huge herbivore has a Spot bonus of around +10-12 (e.g. Elephant, Triceratops), so it would need a Hide of +20 or more to have a good (75%+) chance to escape notice.

We could drop the Skill Focus (hide) and Stealthy and still leave it +25 Hide, then use those two feats for something else - Skill Focus (Spot) and Weapon Focus (bite), for example, would end up giving it more useful skill mods.

Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Endurance, Power Attack, Skill Focus (spot), Weapon Focus (bite)

Epic Feats: Epic Will, Epic Skill Focus (hide)


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## freyar (Mar 2, 2009)

That sounds reasonable to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 2, 2009)

I like Combat Reflexes and Epic Hide, but we gave it Cleave because (through example, such as the purple worm) swallowing whole counts as "dropping" an opponent to give another free attack. Let's eliminate, say, Alertness or Endurance and give it back Cleave.


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## freyar (Mar 2, 2009)

Drop Endurance.


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## Cleon (Mar 2, 2009)

freyar said:


> Drop Endurance.




Sounds good to me, so that makes:

Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Cleave, Power Attack, Skill Focus (spot), Weapon Focus (bite)

Epic Feats: Epic Will, Epic Skill Focus (hide)

What's up next then, skills? Of the 28 skill points I'd put 20 ranks in Hide and 4 each in Listen and Spot. The defaults of Climb and Swim should be good enough, considering its Strength and racial bonuses:

*Climb* 0ranks+11Str+8racial = +19
*Hide* 20ranks+3Dex+10feat+4racial-12size = +25
*Listen* 4ranks+1Wis+2feat+4racial = +11
*Spot* 4ranks+1Wis+2feat+3feat+4racial = +14
*Swim* 0ranks+11Str+8racial = +19


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 2, 2009)

Looks pretty good to me.


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## Cleon (Mar 3, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Looks pretty good to me.




In that case we could just tidy up the advancement, give it a length & weight, and call it done. 26-33 HD (Gargantuan); 34-75 HD (Colossal) would fit the usual "triple max HD" scheme, but 75 HD seems too high for a 'realistic' pseudo-prehistoric beastie. My gut's telling me to go double max HD instead, giving us:

Advancement: 26-33 HD (Gargantuan); 34-50 HD (Colossal)

As for length & weight. If a titanoboa is 40' long and 2500 pounds, a double-size titanoboa would be 80' and 20000 pounds. That's still within the standard weight range for a Huge creature (4000-32000 pounds) but, as previously mentioned, snakes in 3E D&D are probably underweight for their size category, just as Oozes are usually overweight, so I see nothing wrong with that.

Now, are we going to tweak its Str and/or Con up a bit or just leave it as is? I am fine with leaving it at Str 33 and Con 17 from a straight size-increase of a giant constrictor.

To recap the changes so far relative to Shade's rough stats for the snake in post *#402*:

Snake, Giant Titanoboa
Armor Class: 21 (–4 size, +3 Dex, +12 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 18
Attack: Bite +26 melee (2d6+16)
Full Attack: Bite +26 melee (2d6+16)
Special Attacks: Constrict 2d6+16, improved grab, swallow whole
Saves: Fort +17, Ref +17, Will +13
Skills: Climb +19, Hide +25, Listen +11, Spot +14, Swim +19
Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Cleave, Power Attack, Skill Focus (spot), Weapon Focus (bite)
 Epic Feats: Epic Will, Epic Skill Focus (hide)

Swallow Whole (Ex): A giant titanoboa can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of a smaller size than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 2d8+11 points of crushing damage plus 8 points of acid damage per round from the snake’s gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 16). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Gargantuan snake’s interior can hold 2 Large, 8 Medium, 32 Small, 128 Tiny, or 512 Diminutive or smaller opponents.
[_I've modified the gizzard damage and AC to account for the changes in Str and natural armour_.]


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2009)

Wow...I missed a day with a sick kid, and you guys got busy!

I'm not convinced we need to make it a "giant" version.  It may not be as realistic being more powerful than a T-Rex, but the D&D T-Rex is rather underpowered to begin with.   The size clearly puts it in the Gargantuan category, which allows it to fill a nice niche.

I'll bow to the majority, though, if the consensus is that it's true size is too small.

Updated.

Welcome back, Cleon.


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## Cleon (Mar 3, 2009)

Shade said:


> Wow...I missed a day with a sick kid, and you guys got busy!
> 
> I'm not convinced we need to make it a "giant" version.  It may not be as realistic being more powerful than a T-Rex, but the D&D T-Rex is rather underpowered to begin with.   The size clearly puts it in the Gargantuan category, which allows it to fill a nice niche.
> 
> ...




Glad to be back Shade.

Anyhows, I think you really have to make it a giant 80-100' version of the _Titanoboa_. It's got over 50% more HD than a Purple Worm, which is 80' long in the SRD.

The T rex isn't underpowered compared to regular animals (e.g. comparing it to the SRD's elephant), it's just that we expect it to go toe-to-toe with the more fantastic D&D monsters, and its stats are "realistic" as opposed to "super-beast".

Maybe we should come up with Dire versions of the dinosaurs, so they can win back some respect.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Mar 3, 2009)

I think I'm starting to side with Cleon. If a real Titanoboa is 40ft long, then it shouldn't have more hit dice than a purple worm twice its size. 

However, looking back at the Monster Manual II, the 40-foot-long fiendwurm is listed as Gargantuan, so I still feel that Gargantuan is the correct size category. I could see a 18-HD Gargantuan titanoboa with slightly more modest ability scores.

That aside, I still like our stat block and I think we should do something with it.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 3, 2009)

From what I hear, the Pathfinder Bestiary is going to be balancing dire animals and dinosaurs. Which pleases me to no end.

Let's stick to "giant titanoboa". I don't think we need to boost its ability scores that much, although we certainly could.


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## Cleon (Mar 3, 2009)

InsanePsychoRabbit said:


> I think I'm starting to side with Cleon. If a real Titanoboa is 40ft long, then it shouldn't have more hit dice than a purple worm twice its size.
> 
> However, looking back at the Monster Manual II, the 40-foot-long fiendwurm is listed as Gargantuan, so I still feel that Gargantuan is the correct size category. I could see a 18-HD Gargantuan titanoboa with slightly more modest ability scores.
> 
> That aside, I still like our stat block and I think we should do something with it.




Bear in mind that 3E D&D monster lengths typically do not include the tail, being "nose to backside" for quadrupeds or "crown to feet" for bipeds. That fiendwurm's length may not include its tail (assuming it has one), while a purple worm's 80' length is probably from nose to tail-stinger.

Another argument is one of weight - a _Titanoboa _is not an unnaturally lightweight creature like an air elemental, and is estimated to weigh some 2500 lbs. A 2500 pound Gargantuan animal is, well, problematic.

Besides which, it makes little difference what value for length and weight we stick on as far as the game mechanics are concerned, I just feel "Giant Titanoboa" or "Titanic Constrictor Snake" makes better sense as a name.


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2009)

Alright, I bow to the majority.

Updated.

CR 9-10?


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## Cleon (Mar 3, 2009)

Shade said:


> Alright, I bow to the majority.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> CR 9-10?




Well it would be CR10 (and a third) going by the advancement rule applied to a giant constrictor (+1CR per 3HD plus +1CR for the size increase).

How about comparing it to a CR12 Purple Worm? It's got similar AC and primary attack, better Ref and Will saves and Epic Hide, but loses out by not having tremorsense, poison or a burrowing speed, all useful tricks.

So I'd guess CR11, since it doesn't have a purple worm's useful special abilities, but is about equal strong physically. Plus, adding natural armour boost and swallow whole is probably worth another CR bump from a standard giant constrictor advanced to 25HD.

Oh, and your Updated stats should have 30 hp fewer because we swapped out the Epic Toughness feat. I'm afraid I forgot to allow for that in my listed changes.

Hit Dice: 25d8+75 (187 hp)


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2009)

Good catch on the hp.

Updated.

Suggested tactics text?


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## Cleon (Mar 4, 2009)

Shade said:


> Suggested tactics text?




Hmm...

Lurk. Bite. Gulp! Gulp! Gulp!

That's about it for tactics, we may want a slightly more sophisticated wording.


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## Cleon (Mar 4, 2009)

Okay, here's a more sensible version:

 Giant titanoboas are ambush predators, being too slow to chase most prey. They lie in wait in water sources or alongside game trails until a prospective meal wanders by, then try to seize it in their jaws.

  If offered a selection of prey, a giant titanoboa will attack the largest of them, since this represents the biggest meal. If the target's too big for its swallow whole attack, the snake uses its constrict attack. When facing a group of prey small enough to swallow whole, the giant titanoboa uses its Cleave and Combat Reflexes feats to try gulping down as many of them as it can before.

A giant titanoboa can swallow an entire creature one size category smaller than itself, but this is a slow process requiring many minutes of time and a non-resisting meal, not an action it can make in combat like its swallow whole attack.

  A giant titanoboa will retreat if seriously damaged, releasing any prey in its coils and possibly regurgitating swallowed victims if they continue to injure it. They usually flee into the closest water and dive to the bottom.
​It's occurred to me we should increase the size limit of its Swallow Whole attack, since constrictor snakes can eat bigger meals than that. Should we bump the purple worm's swallowing limit up a size step to 2 Huge / 8 Large / 64 Medium et cetera?

EDIT: Upon reflection I prefer half that limit (1 Huge /  4 Large / 16 Medium et cetera). I've read the biggest anacondas (Huge) can swallow a smallish horse or cow (Large), and a big rock python (Large) a gazelle or human (Medium), but I doubt they could eat two of them.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

Looks good.

Updated.

Finished?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Mar 5, 2009)

Better flavor text.

_The massive constrictor snake emerging from the swamp water is so long it almost seems to be endless._

Giant titanoboas are enormous constrictor snakes found in primeval jungles untouched by the passage of time. Though they resemble modern-day anacondas, they have a primordial character to them, mostly afforded by their incredible size. A capybara, a large meal for an anaconda, would be little more than a light snack to a giant titanoboa: these creatures routinely prey upon dire animals.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

Great!  Updated again.


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2009)

I'm pretty happy with it.

Nice to have so much help in this thread!  Cleon, IPR, want to start in on some other critters?


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## Cleon (Mar 5, 2009)

Shade said:


> Looks good.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Finished?




Looks sound to me, can't spot anything wrong with the mechanics. I'm not terribly enamoured of the language of my combat tactics section, it just seems a bit, well, unpolished. But I don't think it's worth the time fiddling around with it, since I think it covers everything important, despite not being very poetic.

Doesn't matter much, a lot of the SRD monsters' write-ups are anything but poetic.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 5, 2009)

Say, Cleon... to digress for a moment, you want to get started on that "building a better otyugh" project?


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## Cleon (Mar 6, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Say, Cleon... to digress for a moment, you want to get started on that "building a better otyugh" project?




I've already finished my version, I'll start the thread after finishing work today.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Mar 10, 2009)

What are we converting next?


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Dire tapir!  

*Astrapotherium *
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 2-12
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 12.
HIT DICE: 3
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-5

This was an unremarkable, rhino-sized Miocene mammal. Although it was an herbivore, this beast had two daggerlike canine teeth and was quite capable of defending itself. It had a short trunk for a nose and lived near water like a hippo.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #137 (1988).

Astrapotherium magnum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2009)

Well, let's start with our tapir stats, shall we?


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Good idea.   Here's our tapir...

Tapir  
Medium Animal  
Hit Dice: 3d8+12 (22 hp) 
Initiative: +0 
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares) 
Armor Class: 16 (+6 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 16 
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+4 
Attack: Bite -1 melee (1d6+1*) 
Full Attack: Bite -1 melee (1d6+1*) and 2 stamps -6 melee (1d4*) 
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: — 
Special Qualities: Hold breath, low-light vision, scent 
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +2  
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 4  
Skills: Jump +6, Listen +7, Spot +5 
Feats: Alertness, Endurance 
Environment: Temperate and warm forests 
Organization: Solitary or herd (5–8) 
Challenge Rating: 1 
Treasure: None 
Alignment: Always neutral 
Advancement: 4-5 HD (Medium) 
Level Adjustment: — 

This creature resembles a large pig, but its feet are rhinolike. Its snout is short and prehensile. Its brown eyes have a bluish cast to them. 

Tapirs are odd-toed ungulates, most closely related to horses and rhinoceroses. These herbivores are found in forests and jungles, where they spend most of their time foraging along well-worn trails. 

Tapirs feed mostly on fruits, berries, and leaves, favoring young, tender growth. They are most active during twilight and night. 

Tapirs love water, spending a good deal of time within rivers and other available water bodies lounging or feeding on the riverbottom. 

Jaguars, crocodiles, tigers, and large constrictor snakes are the greatest threat to tapirs. The tapirs are relatively swift, able to flee to the shelter of thick forest undergrowth or water. 

Tapir reproduce every other year, with a gestation period of around 13 months. Young reach maturity in 3 to 5 years. 

A tapir is about 7 feet long and stands 3 feet tall at the shoulder. It weighs 330 to 700 pounds. Coloration varies from reddish-brown to gray to nearly black. Some varieties have white saddle-shaped markings on their back, and at least one variety has long, wooly fur. A tapir lives up to 30 years. 

COMBAT 

Tapirs are generally shy, and prefer flight to fight, but if cornered they can deliver vicious bites and stamp with their forelegs. 

A tapir's natural attacks are treated as secondary attacks and add only half the tapir's Strength bonus to damage. (These secondary attacks are noted with an asterisk in the Attack and Full Attack entries.) 

Hold Breath (Ex): A tapir can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 4 x its Constitution score before it risks drowning. 

Skills: Tapirs have a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2009)

OK, Large size, gore (not automatically secondary), maybe hold breath... other than that...


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2009)

Here's a mockup...

*Astrapotherium*
Large Animal 
Hit Dice: 6d8+24 (51 hp) 
Initiative: +0 
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares) 
Armor Class: 17 (-1 size, +8 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+14
Attack: Gore +9 melee (1d8+6) 
Full Attack: Gore +9 melee (1d8+6) and 2 stamps +4 melee (1d6+3) 
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: — 
Special Qualities: Hold breath, low-light vision, scent 
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 4 
Skills: Jump +6, Listen +8, Spot +7, Swim +10
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, 1 more 
Environment: Temperate and warm forests 
Organization: Solitary or herd (2–12) 
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None 
Alignment: Always neutral 
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: — 

Hold Breath (Ex): An astrapotherium can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 4 x its Constitution score before it risks drowning. 

Skills: Astrapotheriums have a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 11, 2009)

Reduce land speed to 30 feet, give it Multiattack, say it's CR 4 and I'm tempted to call it done.


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

Advancement: 7-9HD (Large)?


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Anyone want to throw down some flavor text?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Mar 19, 2009)

On a totally unrelated note, today is my birthday and I'm 20!!


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2009)

InsanePsychoRabbit said:


> On a totally unrelated note, today is my birthday and I'm 20!!



Congratulations!


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 19, 2009)

_This creature resembles a large tapir with a short prehensile trunk. Two pairs of curved tusks grow from its mouth._

A xenungulate, Astrapotherium is a member of an odd lineage of herbivorous mammals. Despite their superficial resemblance to tapirs and elephants, they are not closely related to either. Astrapotheres are hippo-like in their behavior, wallowing in mudholes and swimming in rivers in order to graze on plants growing from the bottom.


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2009)

InsanePsychoRabbit said:


> On a totally unrelated note, today is my birthday and I'm 20!!




Happy belated birthday!  I hope it was a good one.

Flavor text looks good.  Updated.

Wikipedia says it is a little over 8 feet long.  Suggested weight?

For tactics, state that they are generally docile, but capable of defending themselves with tusks and hooves?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Mar 19, 2009)

Somewhere between 500 and 600 pounds is my guess. Tactics flavor text sounds good.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Happy belated birthday! I hope it was a good one.



I was busy all day with classes and I didn't have too much time to relax and enjoy myself, but at least it was the first birthday in three years that didn't involve me injuring myself or coming down with a nasty illness.

Edit: I saw some news about a newly-discovered enormous pliosaur. How about we do something like a dire Kronosaurus?


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2009)

Updated.

Whoa..."Predator X" looks cool!   Yeah, we should do a "super kronosaurus".  We've got a regular one for a basis.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm already having this argument on Paizo's forums--I argued that the Dragon 318 Liopleurodon stats are good enough, especially since Liopleurodon was actually Huge (10 meters), whereas the stats, and Predator X, are both Colossal.

Agreed to generally docile unless provoked.


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2009)

Yeah, good point.  They are very close.  Plus, our kronosaurus provides advancement to Colossal for folks that don't have that issue.  

In that case, shall we move on to something else, like this fellow?

*Metridiochoerus  (giant warthog)*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical forests
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Family group
DIET: Omnivore
NO. APPEARING: 1-10
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 5
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 2-12/2-12
SIZE: M (3½ . high at shoulder, 5. long)
MORALE: Average (8-10)
XP VALUE: 175

Metridiochoerus was a giant warthog and a contemporary of the earliest humans. It had the same squat body and long head as the modern species. Its tusks were long and sharp.

Combat: The giant warthog fights with slashes from its two sets of tusks. Females are equal to males. This swine fights for 1-3 rounds at 0 to -8 hp, but greater damage kills it instantly. (Those who do not think pigs are dangerous should rent the video Razorback.)

Habitat/Society: Giant warthogs live in family groups. If more than one is encountered, the largest is the male, while the others are females (50%) and young (50%).

Normally rooters and browsers, warthogs also eat carrion and small animals. Giant warthogs are in the middle of the food chain. The young fall prey to many predators, while lions can take the adults.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #167 (1991).

Metridiochoerus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Mar 19, 2009)

Easy. We can just take the statistics for the boar and advance it to 5 HD, and beef up its physical ability scores a bit. We should probably improve the natural attack too - look at those tusks!


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 19, 2009)

Yeah. It seems to be intermediate in size and power between a boar and a dire boar. Not too terribly exciting.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Mar 22, 2009)

*Boar, Giant Warthog (Metridiochoerus)*
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 5d8+15 (37 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+6 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+8
Attack: Gore +8 melee (2d6+7)
Full Attack: Gore +8 melee (2d6+7)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Ferocity
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +2
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +8, Spot +6
Feats: Alertness, Toughness
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary or herd (5-8)
Challenge Rating: 3?
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: —

_This large boar has knob-like protrusions on its face and very long, curved tusks._

Though not carnivores, these wild swine are bad-tempered and usually charge anyone who disturbs them. 

A giant warthog is about 5 feet long and weighs x pounds.

*Combat*
Giant warthogs charge at opponents and stab them with their long tusks.
*
Ferocity (Ex):* A boar is such a tenacious combatant that it continues to fight without penalty even while disabled or dying. 


I set the strength halfway between the ordinary boar's and the dire boar's. I kept the Con score the same because the ordinary and dire boar both have Con scores of 17. I also increased the gore base damage.


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## Shade (Mar 23, 2009)

Looks good!   Any interest in adding augmented critical for the extra-set of wicked-looking tusks?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Mar 23, 2009)

That would be cool. What do you think about the Challenge Rating, though?


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.   I gave it the dire ability as well.

For CR, I'm thinking with the addition of augmented critical, that it may also be CR 4.  It could be a strong CR 3, though.


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## Cleon (Mar 24, 2009)

Sorry for being late to the party.

Just to play devil's advocate, I would take it one of two ways:

Firstly, just use the SRD stats for a 4-5 HD boar, a 5' long wild pig is nothing unusual, so the regular rules could work fine. Failing that, PsychoRabbit's stats look basically OK to me, although I'd put the Strength considerably lower. A warthog that size would weigh about 300 lbs, which is a lot closer to an 'average' boar than the ~2000 lb dire boar. I'd this +3 Strength for Str 18 would be fine.

Secondly, the AD&D version of the warthog has two tusk attacks, while the AD&D boar has a single gore attack. How about a giant warthog with two tusk attacks?

Stats as PsychoRabbit's Boar, Giant Warthog (Metridiochoerus) except:

Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+7
Attack: Tusk +7 melee (1d8+4)
Full Attack: 2 tusks +7 melee (1d8+4)
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 4


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

I'm not really seeing the second gore attack (in 3e, extra attacks with the same body part tend to be iterative attacks), but I could definitely see lowering the Str and weight as you pointed out.

What do the rest of you think?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Mar 26, 2009)

I can see lowering the Strength.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

Updated.

Suggested Advancement?


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

Well, we could give it alacrity or something if there's demand for it.   6-8 HD (Medium), 8-12 HD (Large)?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2009)

Agreed to no second gore attack. And let's save alacrity for our lightning warthog conversion, right up there with the panda of ill omen.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

Lightning warthogs? Excellent!

My childhood hometown baseball team is the Warthogs.  Maybe they'd have done better if they were lightning warthogs...


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

Updated.

Ready to move on?


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

I'd say it's done.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Mar 27, 2009)

Gah! I forgot to factor in its Toughness feat when i wrote it up. Its hit points should be 5d8+18 (40 hp).

Otherwise we're done.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2009)

Fixed.

Moving on...

*Pelorovis (long-horned buffalo)*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Savannah
FREQUENCY: Common
ORGANIZATION: Herd
DIET: Herbivore
NO. APPEARING: 4-40
ARMOR CLASS: 6/3
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 6
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1 - 10/1-10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Charge
SIZE: M (6’ high at shoulder)
MORALE: Steady (12)
XP VALUE: 420

This was a close relative of the modern African buffalo and looked much like it. However, Pelorovis had huge horns, curving out to the sides and down to form a half circle. The total horn span could reach 12’.

Combat: Pelorovis fights with its massive horns. If it can charge at least 40’, it inflicts 5-20 hp damage, automatically knocking down any human-sized opponent, and tramples for an additional 2-5 hp damage.

Habitat/Society: Pelorovis lives in large herds like other African herbivores. It roams the open woodland scrub, not the jungle or bare plains. The females are smaller, equal to normal buffalo (see “Animal, Herd” in the Monstrous Compendium).

Only lions can bring down an adult. Females and young fall to hyenas, leopards, and crocodiles.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #167 (1991).

Pelorovis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 27, 2009)

Start with the bison. Give it deadly charge instead of trample. Increase Str a bit and the damage from the gore attack.

Thought-what if we gave the horns reach like a polearm?


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2009)

I like all that.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 27, 2009)

We should make note in their combat that they reach like a polearm, not threatening adjacent squares. In that case, so they can act against adjacent opponents, do we want to give them hoof attacks? Or do we just want to have them doing a lot of 5ft stepping? Also, do we want to maintain stampede?


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2009)

I vote yes for both hooves and stampede.


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2009)

I agree.

Based on the text about knocking people down with the charge, we might want to give them Awesome Blow as a bonus feat or tack something special onto the powerful charge.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 29, 2009)

Awesome Blow as a bonus feat is pretty good. Or Knockdown as a bonus feat, actually, would be better.


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## freyar (Mar 29, 2009)

Oh, from the Divine section.  Good idea!  Of course, it's almost just like giving it Trip like a wolf. Hmm.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 29, 2009)

Well, it does have a minimum damage threshold.


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2009)

Yeah, I kind of prefer that, I think.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2009)

Updated.

Do the additions look OK?


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2009)

Sure!


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 30, 2009)

Looks good, but the CR sure isn't 2 anymore. It's 3, maybe even 4--it can do a ridiculous amount of damage on a powerful charge.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2009)

How about a strong 3?

Charge damage equals a rhino, but it has 3 less HD and 3 worse AC.

Suggested descriptive text/flavor text/length and weight?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 30, 2009)

Agreed to strong 3.


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2009)

That sounds fair to me, but I'll let the paleontologists here give you the descriptive stuff.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 31, 2009)

_This creature resembles a lean buffalo, except that its massive horns stretch downwards and widely._

Pelorovis is a relative of the buffalo, although it is more restricted in habitat to flat, dry areas. Like other buffalo, they live in large herds and migrate great distances in search of food, and like other buffalo, they are agressive in defending themselves. Their mighty horns are used both to fend off predators and in interspecific combat. Combat between pelorovis is generally a ritualized affair, with the two parties briefly tapping, rather than locking, horns, and the more intimidating individual with the wider spread tends to victory.

Pelorovis, despite their impressive defensive array, is preyed upon by great cats, agriotherium, and humanoids (although these tend to scavenge dead pelorovis, rather than risk fighting a live one). Both primitive humans and orcs use pelorovis horn and bones as tools. For the statistics of a polearm fashioned from a pelorovis horn, use a guisarme.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2009)

Love it!

Updated.

A pelorovis is about x feet long, stands 6 feet tall at the shoulders, and weighs x pounds.

For tactics, the males open with a powerful charge if the herd is threatened, then stampede if things turn against them?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 1, 2009)

Sounds fair, although any individual who's threatened should charge. Buffalo are violent creatures--one of the top five killers of humans among African animals (Number 1 is the hippo).


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2009)

Any ideas on the length and weight?


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2009)

11 feet long and 1,000 to 2,000 pounds (like an African buffalo)?


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## freyar (Apr 6, 2009)

Works for me, but what do I know?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 6, 2009)

That's good enough for government work. Haven't seen anything saying they were especially larger or smaller, so...


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2009)

Updated.  Ready to move on?


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## freyar (Apr 6, 2009)

I don't see anything missing.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 6, 2009)

Let's move on.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2009)

*Sivatherium*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 2-8
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 18.
HIT DICE: 4 + 1
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 head butt or 2 hooves
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8 or 1-8/1-8

This Pleistocene animal was a relative of the giraffe and looked much like a huge modern moose. It had two short, bony horns above its eyes and two huge antlers spreading from the top of its skull. This creature roamed Africa and Asia, browsing in forested areas. Sivatherium may make either one head-butt attack or two hoof attacks.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #137 (1988).

Sivatherium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## freyar (Apr 7, 2009)

Start from giraffe or dire moose?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 7, 2009)

Starting with the moose seems reasonable.


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## Shade (Apr 8, 2009)

Moose (Dragon Magazine #327) L, 3 HD, Str 14, Dex 7, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 8, Cha 5

Giraffe, L, 5 HD, Str 21, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 4 

I don't see a dire moose, but there's a dire elk in MM2...

Dire Elk, H, 12 HD, Str 24, Dex 11, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 7


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 9, 2009)

OK, these guys are shorter at the shoulder than a giraffe, but somewhat more massive. I'm thinking Large (elephants are 3 m high at the shoulder and are Huge. Sivatherium is 2 m high at the shoulder, a bit taller than a rhino).


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Apr 9, 2009)

We could use the giraffe ability scores, but reduce the Dex to 11 and increase the Con to 19. Maybe boost the Str too. I agree with the size assessment of Large.


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## Shade (Apr 9, 2009)

That sounds reasonable.  Perhaps just  a slight bump to Str 22?  I wouldn't want to get into the Huge dire elk's territory.


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## freyar (Apr 9, 2009)

That all sounds good to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 9, 2009)

Agreed to Str 22, Dex 11, Con 19.


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## Shade (Apr 9, 2009)

Added to Homebrews (on third try).

I kept the 5 HD of the original (and of the giraffe).  Do we want to increase them at all?

Keep the giraffe's powerful kick and sprint abilities?


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## freyar (Apr 9, 2009)

I like powerful kick, maybe not sprint.  Something we can give it for the bigger antlers?  Like a powerful charge for the gore or something?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 9, 2009)

Drop sprint, but I don't think powerful charge is appropriate. Trample, on the other hand...


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Apr 10, 2009)

Trample is something I can get behind...(Don't think I'd want to get in front of it though, )
I'm not sure I'd call the attack 'gore,' because those horns look blunt. I'd go with headbutt like the old writeup.


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## Shade (Apr 10, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 8
We put giraffe's ranks in Hide and Spot

Feats: 2
We gave giraffe Alertness, Endurance

Environment: Temperate and warm plains?

Organization: Solitary, pair, or herd (3-8)?

Challenge Rating: 4?  It's slightly deadlier than a giraffe.

Advancement: x


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 10, 2009)

Feats are good. Replace Hide with Listen. Organization, CR and environment work for me.


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## freyar (Apr 11, 2009)

Agreed.

Advancement same as giraffe since they're related?


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2009)

Sounds good.

Updated.

Suggested description/flavor text/tactics?


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2009)

How's this?

_This creature resembles a giraffe, but it sports a pair of large antler-like protrusions atop its skull.  A smaller pair of similar protrusions rise above its eyes._

Sivatherium is an ancestor of the giraffe that bears two pairs of ossicones upon its head.  The larger pair is antlerlike, allowing it to deliver deadly head butts.

Tactics:  Sivatherium possess the same strong kicks as giraffes, strong enough to crush bone of would-be predators.  Additionally, they may butt with their larger ossicones and can trample smaller adversaries.


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2009)

Works for me, but I'll give the experts a chance to chime in.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 14, 2009)

Switch "ancestor" for "relative", and I'll be happy.


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## RavinRay (Apr 15, 2009)

Second that.


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2009)

Updated.

Finished?


----------



## freyar (Apr 15, 2009)

Looks fine from here.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 15, 2009)

I think we're done.


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2009)

*Moropus *
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1-8
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 15.
HIT DICE: 4 + 1
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claws and 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-5/2-5/1-3

This was another bizarre-looking animal of the Miocene. Moropus looked vaguely like a horse with short ears, and was about the same size but with a downward-sloping back. It was a herbivore but had short heavy claws which it used in digging and defense, as well as for pulling down tree limbs for feeding.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #137 (1988).

Moropus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 16, 2009)

Love chalicotheres. Should probably do more than 1d4 on a claw.


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## RavinRay (Apr 20, 2009)

Ah, chalicotheres. They were like the ungulate counterpart of the ground sloths. If you watched _Walking With Beasts_ (I bought a DVD on a US vacation), a chalicothere is in the indricothere episode. And those claws were vicious, like demiurge said, they can do more damage than 1d4.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Apr 20, 2009)

RavinRay said:


> Ah, chalicotheres. They were like the ungulate counterpart of the ground sloths.



There does seem to be a certain bauplan that turns up a few times in the fossil record--forager/browsers that use long, clawed forearms to harvest food and for defense. In addition to the chalicotheres and ground sloths, therizinosaurs are similar.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Apr 29, 2009)

This is flavor text I came up with a while ago for someone else's version of Moropus.

_This creature looks like a cross between a horse and a bear. Its body plan is horselike, but it has huge bear claws on its hands and feet. However, it appears to be using those claws to pull down tree branches, not unlike a ground sloth. It still looks like it could defend itself if need be._

Moropus (meaning 'slow foot') was a chalicothere (a relative of the horse) and a contemporary of Dinohyus, a likely predator. Much like the giant ground sloths, chalicotheres were probably browsers that used their claws to grasp branches and forage for food.
*
Combat*
Moropus do not like to fight, but will use their claws if their life is on the line.


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2009)

Great stuff, all!

Let's figure out some ability scores for this fellow so we can get the Homebrews going.  Should we use a heavy horse for the baseline?


----------



## freyar (Apr 29, 2009)

If that seems reasonable to everyone else, sure!


----------



## demiurge1138 (Apr 30, 2009)

Use heavy horse for baseline stats seems reasonable.


----------



## InsanePsychoRabbit (Apr 30, 2009)

That's fine by me. Let's get to work!


----------



## Shade (Apr 30, 2009)

In that case, we're looking at Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6.

Stick with 4 HD?

1d4 bite, 1d8 claws?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Apr 30, 2009)

Sounds good.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 30, 2009)

Not sure how I feel about the weaponized bite, but augmented critical or rend on the claws would be fun.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Skills: 7

Feats: 2

Environment: x

Organization: Solitary, pair, or herd (3-8)?

Advancement: x


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2009)

I have to go with Spot and/or Listen as well as Alertness for one feat, since it's herbivorous.  Iron Will maybe for the other feat?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 30, 2009)

Agreed to Alertness, but its saves (what with being dire) are already fantastic. Let's give it Endurance or Toughness (hah!) instead.

Shade, did you see my previous post? Not a fan of weaponized bite, but would support rend or augmented critical?


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2009)

Endurance is fair.  I'd be happy with either rend or augmented crit, too, esp if we drop the bite.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Shade, did you see my previous post? Not a fan of weaponized bite, but would support rend or augmented critical?




Your ninjitsu has grown as well.  

Sure, we'll drop bite.  Preferences on augmented crit or rend (or both)?


----------



## demiurge1138 (May 1, 2009)

Let's give it rend only.


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## Shade (May 1, 2009)

Updated.

Environment: x

Organization: Solitary, pair, or herd (3-8)?

Challenge Rating: 2-3 (It's got slightly better damage output potential than a CR 2 heavy warhorse, but less hp)

Advancement: x

A moropus stands 8 feet tall at the shoulder, is x feet long and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (May 1, 2009)

CR 2 is ok.  The AC is also less than the heavy warhorse.

No advancement, like horses?

I'll leave the rest to the paleo folks.


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## demiurge1138 (May 1, 2009)

I think we should let it advance. For one thing, advanced stats could stand in for other  chalicotheres.


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## Shade (May 4, 2009)

Suggested advancement?   The dire horse starts at 8 HD and advances as follows:  9-16 HD (Large); 17-24 HD (Huge).


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## demiurge1138 (May 4, 2009)

5-8 HD (Large), 9-12 HD (Huge)?


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## Shade (May 4, 2009)

That works for me.

Environment: x

Organization: Solitary, pair, or herd (3-8)?

A moropus stands 8 feet tall at the shoulder, is x feet long and weighs x pounds.


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## demiurge1138 (May 4, 2009)

What environment did we decide on for giraffes? Temperate and warm plains?

Probably twelve feet long. No idea on the weight.


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## Shade (May 5, 2009)

We did indeed give the giraffe temperate and warm plains.

An adult Clydesdale weighs in at about 1500-2000 pounds on average, so maybe something similar for moropus?


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## demiurge1138 (May 5, 2009)

Bigger. These guys are eight feet high at the shoulder!


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## RavinRay (May 6, 2009)

Coming a bit late to _Moropus_…

Rend for me!

Not only were they big, but also somewhat heavy set. A leafy diet like that requires a lot of gut for digestion, which adds to the weight of many such modern mammals. So an advanced _Moropus_ should pack on the weight.


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## Shade (May 6, 2009)

1 to 2 tons?


----------



## Shade (May 13, 2009)

Any objections?


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## freyar (May 13, 2009)

Not from me.


----------



## demiurge1138 (May 14, 2009)

None here either.


----------



## RavinRay (May 14, 2009)

Weight's fine with me.


----------



## Shade (May 14, 2009)

Updated.  Finished?


----------



## demiurge1138 (May 14, 2009)

I think it's done.


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## Shade (May 15, 2009)

*Gigantopithecus *
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 2-8
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 12.
HIT DICE: 6 + 6
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 fists and 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1-6/2-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Rending if both fists hit victim
INTELLIGENCE: Low

This huge Pleistocene ape is known only from a few scattered bones. Gigantopithecus is believed to have been taller than a gorilla (up to 8’ high) and probably had similar habits. Like modern apes, it probably roamed forested areas in small family bands. Primarily feeding on plants, Gigantopithecus probably ate whatever small creatures it could catch. Though probably shy and peaceful, this huge ape could bite and strike furiously if disturbed. If both hands hit, this ape also rends for 1-10 hp damage.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #95 (1985).

Gigantopithecus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Does this differ enough from a dire ape to justify conversion?


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## freyar (May 15, 2009)

The HD are slightly different, but that's it.  Unless our experts know something else about it, I'd probably say no.


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## demiurge1138 (May 15, 2009)

Well, it's certainly more realistic, what with its fists, rather than claws (no primates have claws! That's part of what being a primate is all about!). And the HD are higher, and it's somewhat more flavorful. If we wanted to convert it, we could backwards convert abilities generally attributed to the sasquatch/yeti/bigfoot to it (since those scientists who are open about such things think that Gigantopithecus is a pretty good candidate), such as stench and a racial bonus to Hide.


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## Shade (May 15, 2009)

That's enough justification for me.  Gentlemen, begin converting!


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## freyar (May 16, 2009)

Ok, then, 6HD still, or increase it?  Either way, the +6 hp indicates a substantial Con for an animal.  Large, I guess.  Str probably also high, and Dex decent.

Rather than rend, this one is pummel, huh?


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## demiurge1138 (May 16, 2009)

Totally pummel. We should start with the dire ape stats, methinks, a bit more Con, a bit less Str.


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## freyar (May 17, 2009)

Works for me.  Dire ape is Str 22, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7.  So maybe Str 20, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7?


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## Shade (May 18, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## demiurge1138 (May 18, 2009)

I approve of those ability scores.


----------



## xidoraven (May 18, 2009)

*Dino-mania and Prehistoric Animal Fever*

Wow.  I have come upon an amazingly large amount of material over the last few days.  This is one facet of it.

Between publications (Wizards, Third-Party, Magazines) of both old and current editions, as well as various online venues (here, D&D Forums, D&D Wiki, a personal webpage on the topic, etc.) I have a lot to sift through in order to make up a viable and handy list for my unique ecology in a re-vamp of one of my older settings in a new cosmology.

My primary comments are posted HERE on D&D Forums (Gleemax).  Please reply at that forum if possible, or else please email me personally at both xidoraven@yahoo.com and xidoraven@gmail.com.  I will no longer thread-spam after that, except to provide additional creature stats I have gathered for this thread.

My final product will be completely v3.5-stable, and used only in my own personal games, which I am hoping to begin running one very soon in this  prehistoric-style setting (The "Beastlands" of Nym).  Also to come are dino- and dire/prehist-themed guardinal races and semi-divine Companions (as the '_Talisid and the Five Companions_' of *Book of Exalted Deeds*).

Thanks and best wishes,
-will (xidoraven)


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## Shade (May 20, 2009)

Will, good luck with your ambitious project!

Skills: Climb +13, 9 ranks
Dire ape has: Listen, Move Silently, Spot

Feats: 3
Dire ape has: Alertness, Toughness

I'd love to (as always) ditch Toughness for something interesting.


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## demiurge1138 (May 20, 2009)

Agreed to ditching Toughness. 

Alertness, Stealthy, Weapon Focus (slam)?


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## Shade (May 20, 2009)

Sounds good.

Updated.

CR 4?


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## demiurge1138 (May 20, 2009)

What of my suggestion of giving it stench to make it more Bigfoot-ish? Is that going by the wayside?


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## freyar (May 22, 2009)

They'd probably be pretty smelly, so I'm fine with Stench as troglodytes.


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## Shade (May 26, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> What of my suggestion of giving it stench to make it more Bigfoot-ish? Is that going by the wayside?




My apologies.  That is a great idea, one which I seem to have forgotten amid all the timeouts and server crashes.  

Here's the trog's stench...

Stench (Ex): When a troglodyte is angry or frightened, it secretes an oily, musk-like chemical that nearly every form of animal life finds offensive. All living creatures (except troglodytes) within 30 feet of a troglodyte must succeed on a DC 13 Fortitude save or be sickened for 10 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based. Creatures that successfully save cannot be affected by the same troglodyte’s stench for 24 hours. A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from the sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws.

Does that work again here with simple name and DC replacement?


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## demiurge1138 (May 26, 2009)

I think so.


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## freyar (May 26, 2009)

I think that's good, too.


----------



## Shade (May 26, 2009)

Updated.

CR 4?

Anyone want to writeup some flavor text?


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## demiurge1138 (May 27, 2009)

_This immense ape is covered in shaggy auburn fur. Even stooped over, it stands taller than a man, and its powerful odor assaults your nostrils._

Gigantopithecus is a large, reclusive ape notable for its specialized diet.

Gigantopithecus feed almost solely on bamboo and wood pulp, which they eat using their immense, powerful jaws. Most of a gigantopithecus' time is therefore spent eating, in order to extract nutrients from this sparse, difficult food. Gigantopithecus are mostly solitary, but the ranges of multiple females overlap the territory of a single male, who defends his land and females fiercely from the attention of other males. Like an orangutan, to which gigantopithecus is closely related, the males of the species are much larger than the females, and have broad, wide cheekbones.

Combat
Shy and retiring, gigantopithecus prefer to use their immense size and powerful rank odor to discourage predators, and flee from most confrontations. A cornered animal, or a male defending his territory, will fight savagely with crushing fists.


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## Shade (May 27, 2009)

Fantastic!   Updated.

All done?


----------



## freyar (May 27, 2009)

Looks good.


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## demiurge1138 (May 28, 2009)

I say we're done.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (May 28, 2009)

A agree. Let's convert Macrauchenia next.


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## Shade (May 28, 2009)

As you wish....

*Macrauchenia*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 2-12
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 1 4 .
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 forefeet
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8/2-8

This Pleistocene creature looked like a shaggy, elephant-nosed camel. It had a long neck with thick limbs, and it browsed on leaves from trees and bushes. Generally inoffensive, this creature could be dangerous if provoked.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #137 (1988).

Macrauchenia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## freyar (May 28, 2009)

I'm going to say it looks Large advancing to Huge from the description (over 3 meters in length and fairly bulky).  It looks like we're free to pick HD, so how about around 8HD, like the rhino?  Probably could modify rhino abilities.


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## demiurge1138 (May 28, 2009)

Actually, judging by its body plan, I'd say modify the camel ability scores. I also think that 8 HD is a little overmuch. How about 5, like a bison?


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## freyar (May 28, 2009)

5 HD is fine.  Camel abilities are fine, maybe a little bump in Str and Con.  How about Str 20, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 4, also dropping Dex a touch?


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## demiurge1138 (May 28, 2009)

Lower Dex, higher Str and Con suit me just fine.


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## RavinRay (May 29, 2009)

Not as robust as a camel, from what I know, so less HD is good. And it's often depicted with the neck held vertically like a giraffe's.

_Macrauchenia_ is a litoptern, a group of South American ungulates that converged on other ungulates. If the macrauchenids converged on camels, the prototherids converged on horses.


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## Shade (May 29, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Any abilities or skill bonuses?


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## RavinRay (May 30, 2009)

Are there statted trunked animals with Scent or any olfactory-based bonuses? Though with a short trunk it may be unnecessary for this one. There was speculation that it was amphibious and used the trunk as a snorkel, but it's not widely accepted.


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2009)

The elephant in the SRD has scent.  We also gave it to the tapir, so I'd say we're good to go.


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2009)

Skills: 8
Feats: 2


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## freyar (Jun 3, 2009)

Are we giving it scent?

I often like Spot and Listen for herbivores.  

Wikipedia reads like Run and Dodge would be reasonable feats.


> One insight into Macrauchenia's habits is that it apparently had unusually good mobility, being able to rapidly change direction when it ran.
> ...
> It is presumed that Macrauchenia dealt with its predators primarily by outrunning them


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 3, 2009)

Four ranks each in Listen and Spot. Feats: Endurance, Iron Will.

Edit: I like Shade's better.


----------



## freyar (Jun 3, 2009)

Shade's?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 3, 2009)

Yes, yes. Strike that. Reverse it.


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## Shade (Jun 3, 2009)

freyar said:


> Shade's?




I claimed salvage rights.  

Updated.

To give 'em a niche, we might consider giving them a special ability similar to the Fleet of Foot feat...

Benefit:  When running or charging, you can make a single direction change of 90 degrees or less. You can't use this feat in medium or heavy armor, or if you're carrying a medium or heavier load. If you are charging, you must move in a straight line for 10 feet (2 squares) after the turn to maintain the charge.


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## Leopold (Jun 3, 2009)

i like that. I would compare them to the hydrasaurs that were running willy nilly in Jurassic Park 1 when the t-rex was coming.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 4, 2009)

Those were gallimimus. Ostrich-mimic dinos.

I like the can turn when running and charging. Helps make them stand out.


----------



## Shade (Jun 4, 2009)

Updated.

Environment: x

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: 6–x HD (Large), x-x HD (Huge)


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## Leopold (Jun 4, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Those were gallimimus. Ostrich-mimic dinos.
> 
> I like the can turn when running and charging. Helps make them stand out.




I'd compare them to the beasts in the barrens for WoW but I bow to your superior dinosaurdom! 


Environment:  Temperate/Warm Plains

Advancement: 6-11(Large) 12-22 (Huge) Mimicing an elephant with the Huge portion.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 4, 2009)

Bison are CR 2, but these guys can get in two nasty hits a round, as opposed to the bison's 1. So let's either make them CR 3 or drop the damage on those hooves to 1d4.


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2009)

Let's go CR 3 to give 'em more of a niche.

Would one of our prehistory scholars wanna take a stab at the description/flavor text?


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## freyar (Jun 4, 2009)

I like what we've got, and CR 3 is ok.


----------



## RavinRay (Jun 5, 2009)

This Pleistocene creature looked like a shaggy, camel with a tapir-like trunk. It had a long neck with thick limbs, and it browsed on leaves from trees and bushes.

*Combat*
Generally inoffensive, this creature prefers to run away from predators but if cornered it can lash out with it's hooves.

Anyone wanna add more?


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## Leopold (Jun 5, 2009)

*Combat*
Generally docile like an elephant, this creature prefers to run away from predators using Fleet of Foot ability to distance itself from predators. When cornered or in defense of it's young, the Macrauchenia lashes out with it's 2 hooves rising up and pummeling it's foes.


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

Updated.

Suggested weight?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jun 5, 2009)

About a ton, maybe a little more. Also, it's not a "three toad" animal. Unless it's much, much different than I thought it was...


----------



## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

Oops!  That should've been "four-frogged".  

Updated.

Anything else for this one?


----------



## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

Looks fine to me.


----------



## Leopold (Jun 8, 2009)

Next DinoSaur!


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## Shade (Jun 8, 2009)

*Uintatherium*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1-8
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 15.
HIT DICE: 9
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite, or 1 charge with trample
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8, or 2-16 and 2-8/2-8

This bizarre Eocene animal was the size of a large rhinoceros and was herbivorous, but had large molar fangs. (As a side note, many herbivores of the early Cenozoic had fangs.) Six small, knobby horns appeared on its head. Uintatherium attacked with its fangs and forefeet. It could charge like a rhinoceros.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #137 (1988).

Uintatherium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Leopold (Jun 8, 2009)

Comparing this to a smaller rhino with a bite attack will be a safe bet:
	 Str 26, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 2 

STR: 24, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 2,  Wis 11, Cha 2

Size: Large
HD: 7d8


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2009)

Let's stick with 9HD like the original stats.  Other than that, what you have appeals to me, assuming our paleontology experts also think that's good.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Jun 8, 2009)

Didn't we already do this one?


----------



## Shade (Jun 8, 2009)

Sure enough!

Creature Catalog - Preview Creature

I thought this felt strangely familiar!

I don't think we've don this one yet...

*Arsinoitherium *
This was an Oligocene beast that looked much like a rhinoceros, except that it had two massive horns side by side on its nose. Like a rhinoceros, could charge for double damage. Low or prone opponents would be trampled for 2-12/2-12 hp damage. Treat Arsinoitherium 9-HD rhinoceros, as per the Monster Manual, except that its horns do 4-16 hp damage total.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #137 (1988).

Arsinoitherium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Leopold (Jun 8, 2009)

Use my prior stats for this thing.


STR: 24, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 2
 9HD.


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## RavinRay (Jun 9, 2009)

Yes, I agree with Freyar on 9d8. The Eocene saw a burst of large mammals to fill the void the dinosaurs left. Relative brain size is low compared to modern mammals however, so a low Cha and modest Wis is fair enough.

We can compare the bite damage from the fangs to those of a hippo, but scaled-down since its fangs are smaller.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 9, 2009)

Cha 2 strikes me as unfair. What's the Cha of a rhino?

Powerful charge and trample for Arsinotherium seem like no-brainers. Perhaps we could do something to capitalize on the double horn? Improved Critical as a bonus feat, maybe?


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

Rhino has Str 26, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 2.

A hippo's bite is 2d6.

Agreed to powerful charge and trample.  How about augmented critical rather than Improved Critical as bonus feat?


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## Leopold (Jun 9, 2009)

I'll take Augmented Critical.  The gore damage must be high on charge as that's how it deals the majority of damage with those horns.  9HD with 2d6? What about 2d8? And then it's charge does double that so 4d8? That would work. 20hp damage is quite a bit for a low CR critter. Gotta make those PCs hurt a bit!


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2009)

All those ideas work for me!


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 9, 2009)

OK, didn't know that about rhino Cha. Augmented critical, I'm good with.


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## RavinRay (Jun 9, 2009)

Just wanna add here that the fang references were for the uintathere, not the arsinoethere.

Augmented critical on those twin massive horns! Perfect!


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 10, 2009)

I have no idea where the hp bonus is coming from. +4 bonus times 9 HD does not make 10. Lesee...

Skills: Spilt between Listen and Spot? We could give them a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks--not a Swim speed, but not shabby, considering their strength.

Feats: Diehard, Endurance, Iron Will, Weapon Focus (gore)?

Did my suggestion for trample go anywhere?


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

They definitely need trample.  Agreed to those skills (and racial bonus) and feats.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jun 10, 2009)

I think that all sounds good, except for putting skills in Spot -the arsinoitherium had no forward vision at all because that was obscured by its giant horns.
Knowing that, should we give it some sort of resistance to gaze attacks?


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

Updated.

I'm not sure how I mangled the hit points, but I've fixed them now.

Sorry about missing the trample, I've added it now.  Suggested damage?  An elephant's equals its gore damage.

I like the feats.  I shifted all the skill ranks into Listen, based on InsanePsychoRabbit's suggestion regarding Spot.  I also added the racial bonus on Swim checks.

As to InsanePsychoRabbit's suggestion about gaze attacks, perhaps a +4 racial bonus on saving throws vs. gazes?


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## Leopold (Jun 10, 2009)

Gaze bonus seems good. 

Flavor Text:

A large thick skinned animal on 4 hooves much like a rhino with 2 larger horns side by side stands grazing before you. It's mouth chewing on grass with saber like fangs protruding from it's upper and lower jaws.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 10, 2009)

I hate to say it so bluntly, but to suggest that Arsiniotherium's vision was blocked by its giant horns is stupid. Ungulates and parungulates have eyes that point to the sides, giving them wide, overlapping vision with little depth perception. Of _course_ the eye sockets aren't immediately visible from the front of the skull. If you want to do that, you should strip all of the spot bonuses from a deer, too.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

In that case...

Split ranks between Listen/Spot again?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 10, 2009)

Yes.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

Updated.

Trample damage = gore damage like the elephant?

CR 5?  It's essentially a deadlier rhino.

Environment: Warm forests and marshes?

Organization: Solitary or herd (2–12)?

Advancement: 10–12 HD (Large); 13–27 HD (Huge)?


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## Leopold (Jun 10, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Trample damage = gore damage like the elephant?
> 
> ...




Trample: Yes like the elephant

CR: 5 seems about right. It's not that much of an upgrade to a rhino
Enviornment: Warm Plains
Organization: Solitary and Herd like a rhino
Advancement: 10-14, 15-27.  

Imagine a 28HD version of these beast..my god.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

That all sounds about right.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jun 10, 2009)

Back on the topic of Arsinoitherium's eyesight, I could've sworn that Walking with Beasts or one of the BBC's other shows touched on its poor forward vision. I'm not saying that we strip any bonuses from anything, I'm just suggesting that we could reflect this for Arsinoitherium by not giving it a very good Spot skill and by giving it resistance to gaze attacks.

Besides, if you look at a deer's face, you can see both of its eyes. If you look at Arsinoitherium's face, you can't.

Edit: Actually the show was Chased by Sea Monsters.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 11, 2009)

CR 5. And warm forests and marshes is correct--the environment in which it is found is now plains, but was then more akin to a mangrove forest.


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## Shade (Jun 11, 2009)

Updated.

Suggested weight?  Per the rhinoceros entry, "The statistics presented here are based on the African black rhino, which is 6 to 14 feet long, 3 to 6 feet high at the shoulder, and weighs up to 6,000 pounds."


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## Leopold (Jun 11, 2009)

From wikipedia:
Arsinoitherium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> When alive, it would have superficially resembled a rhinoceros, and have been about 1.8 metres (5.9 ft) tall at the shoulders, and 3 metres (9.8 ft) long.




Let's make it a bit smaller and bit shorter rhino: 5-10ft long , 3-6ft high, and 5000lbs


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## freyar (Jun 11, 2009)

5000 lb is ok by me.  And I think it's looking ok.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jun 11, 2009)

Is anybody going to take me up on the 'resistance to gaze attacks' suggestion? I've pulled out my Chased by Sea Monsters book and it says "The position of the horns meant that Arsinoitherium was unable to see straight in front of it" and "The position of the male arsinoitherium's horns meant that it could only see what's in front of it by cocking its head." I think that should count for something, even if it's only a reference in the flavor text.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 12, 2009)

So it may have had a blind spot. So do we. Ungulates have eyes set on the sides of their heads, giving them 270 degrees of vision, but horses don't have the all around vision SQ, do they?


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## RavinRay (Jun 12, 2009)

So, a creature with a gaze attack such as a medusa that attempts to petrify the beast will fail if the gazing at it head on, because the arsinoithere won't meet its eyes. It will have to cock its head, as ISR indicates, to see the creature, if it wants to. Behaviorally, should it do so, in order to get a clearer view? It takes eye contact with only one eye for a gaze attack to succeed, right?


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## Leopold (Jun 12, 2009)

Make it flavor text and move on. No sense to let this one small quirk slow us down.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 12, 2009)

RavinRay said:


> So, a creature with a gaze attack such as a medusa that attempts to petrify the beast will fail if the gazing at it head on, because the arsinoithere won't meet its eyes. It will have to cock its head, as ISR indicates, to see the creature, if it wants to. Behaviorally, should it do so, in order to get a clearer view? It takes eye contact with only one eye for a gaze attack to succeed, right?



Yes. But then again, there's no facing in default D&D. A bonus to gaze attack saves because you have a blind spot doesn't take into account if the gazing opponent is approaching from another angle. We've got a much bigger blind spot than Arsiniotherium, after all (the entire 180 degree expanse behind us).


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jun 12, 2009)

If we're not going to give it resistance, than we should make a reference in the flavor text. Otherwise, let's wrap it up.


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## freyar (Jun 12, 2009)

Let's just say that it has its blind spot in front, rather than to the rear.  Does that work?


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## Cleon (Jun 12, 2009)

freyar said:


> Let's just say that it has its blind spot in front, rather than to the rear.  Does that work?




I don't see what the big deal about this is, plenty of herbivores have poor foreward vision but it's no great handicap. If a horse or rhinoceros wants a good view ahead of itself, it just turns its head to the side.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jun 13, 2009)

I'm sorry, I made a big deal of it. Let's just put something in the flavor text and call it done.


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## xidoraven (Jun 13, 2009)

*Macrauchenia*

Hello (and btw - hello again, PsychoRabbit - I hope you're the same human as on Wizards forums)

On the Wizards forum for dinos and prehistoric beasts, it was mentioned that this group was working on doing a write-up for Macrauchenia (I hope I spelled that right, since I don't have my list here with me).

Is this creature already done, or is it still in the to-do's?

I love Arsinoitherium.  I bet it got laid a lot.  I mean, look at those horns...!  I am also a fan of Sivatherium and Andrewsarchus, for the record.  Okay, I admit it: I am a primitive creature nerd.  Rather than referring to dinos and prehistoric animals as such, I am calling them "Primitives" or Prims (not to be confused with Second Life prims).  My next endeavor is to benchmark the qualities of the Serpent Kingdoms Saurials to make a set of forms of dino/prim Guardinals, the 'Dinopriminals'.  Any suggestions on that front?  This could include stats, races of creatures to base from, etc.
-will


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2009)

Go back few pages in this thread, and you'll find the discussion of Macrauchenia.  The completed version is [post=4807039]here[/url].  Andrewsarchus has been done for a while here.

Just a shameless plug: there are many prehistoric critters in the Creature Catalog!


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## xidoraven (Jun 14, 2009)

Thanks!  Yes, we have noted the creatures of the CC on the Wizards thread.  I believe our index has them all up to the point where it was updated.

Macrauchenia was a big help.  You guys (and gals) rock!  Keep up the wonderful work!
-will


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2009)

Moving on, then.   Here's another rhino-like critter...

*Elasmotherium *
Elasmotherium was a large, shaggy Pleistocene rhinoceros with a huge horn on its forehead instead of on its nose.  Treat this mammal as the one-horned rhinoceros described in the Monster Manual, doing +2 hp damage with its 6” horn.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #137 (1988).

Elasmotherium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Leopold (Jun 15, 2009)

Will,
           If you want to, bring your friends and forum buddies over here to help out on the conversions of the next batches of dinosaurs. we go through them pretty quickly and any input is helpful .

New monster:



> Elasmotherium ("Thin Plate Beast") was a genus of giant rhinoceros which stood, on average, 2.7 metres (8.9 ft) high and 6 metres (20 ft) long, with a single two-meter-long horn in the forehead. The animal may have weighed up to 5 tonnes (5.5 short tons). Its legs were longer than those of other rhinos and were designed for galloping, giving it a horse-like gait. It was probably a fast runner, in spite of its size. Its teeth were similar to those of horses, and it probably grazed low herbs.




This is a longer and taller version of the rhino, more like a buffalo or a bison with one huge horn on it's forehead. 

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Bison

I'd say give it the HD of the rhino or bigger:  10 HD
Speed of the bison: 40'
less natural armor than the rhino:  +5 
Stats of bison but bigger:

	 Str 24, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 4


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 16, 2009)

Elasmotherium was converted as the "dire rhino" in the Fiend Folio.


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## Leopold (Jun 16, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Elasmotherium was converted as the "dire rhino" in the Fiend Folio.




how oppropriate.


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## Echohawk (Jun 16, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Elasmotherium was converted as the "dire rhino" in the Fiend Folio.



So does Elasmotherium = Dire Rhino = Woolly Rhino? (At least for D&D purposes.)


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## RavinRay (Jun 16, 2009)

Echohawk said:


> So does Elasmotherium = Dire Rhino = Woolly Rhino? (At least for D&D purposes.)



I couldn't find any rhino, woolly or otherwise, in Frostburn, so I suppose the Fiend Folio dire rhino can stand in for _Elasmotherium_.

BTW, _Elasmotherium_ is regarded by some paleontologists as _the_ real-world prehistoric unicorn. Think of it as a unicorn on steroids.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

Well, that was easy.  

*Deinotherium*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-8
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 15.
HIT DICE: 10
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 tusks and 2 forefeet
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-12/3-12/4-16/4-16

This Miocene creature was a distant relative of the elephant. Deinotherium had a short proboscis, short downward-curving tusks, small ears, and a sloping back. It is a more likely relative of the oliphant (Monster Manual II) than the mastodon in AD&D game worlds. Deinotherium attacked with its tusks and forefeet, the trunk being too small for combat. The tusks are worth 100-400 gp each.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #137 (1988).

Deinotherium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## RavinRay (Jun 16, 2009)

This odd-looking proboscidean was a forest browser, since it's comparatively long legs and short trunk meant it couldn't reach grass in a standing position. The teeth were likewise ill-equipped for grinding grass (do you know that grass actually incorporates tiny crystals of silica to make itself tough?), and the downward-pointing tusks could have been used for hooking branches and pulling them lower. Their downward orientation might force us to re-think the mechanics of a tusk attack.


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## Leopold (Jun 16, 2009)

The tusk attacks i'd argue for use on goring only if in base to base contact. No charging with these things and gettign the tusks for bonus attacks.

Found a conversion of the oliphant for reference:

R: Oliphant: CR 7; Huge Animal; HD 10d8+50; hp 95; Init +0 (Dex); Spd 40 ft.; AC 18 (-2 size, +8 natural, +2 leather); Atk Slam +14 melee (2d6+9), 2 stamps +9 melee (2d6+5); or gore +14 melee (2d8+13); Face 10 ft. by 20 ft.; Reach 10 ft.; SA Trample 2d8+13; SQ Scent; SR 16; AL N; SV Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +5; Str 28, Dex 11, Con 21, Int 4, Wis 15, Cha 11.
Skills— Listen +7, Spot +7
SA— Trample (Ex): Can trample Medium-size or smaller opponents for 2d8+13 damage unless the opponent makes a Reflex save (DC 23).


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 16, 2009)

Well, elephants don't have powerful charge, so I see no reason that Deinotherium would, even if its tusks were straighter. In order to reflect their odd orientation, they could only have five feet of reach (as opposed to the usual 10 for being a Huge quadruped).


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

That sounds like a reasonable solution, or even give it a space/reach of 15 ft./10 ft. (5 ft. w/gore).


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2009)

Yeah, I like the 10 ft (5 ft gore) reach.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2009)

That's what I was getting at. The stamp attacks should have normal reach for a creature of its size.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2009)

Sounds like we're all in agreement.

Suggested size and ability scores?

Elephant: Str 30, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 7
Mastodon: Str 32, Dex 11, Con 23, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 5
Oliphant (from upthread); Str 28, Dex 11, Con 21, Int 4, Wis 15, Cha 11

Int is, of course, going to be 2.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jun 18, 2009)

I'd go with the mastodon's ability scores, and maybe increase the Str and Con a little.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 18, 2009)

I like the oliphant stats. Not everything "prehistoric" has to mean "better". I also don't think these guys should be dire for saving throw purposes.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jun 18, 2009)

I chose the more powerful statistics because, according to Wikipedia, "_Deinotherium_ is the third largest land mammal known to have existed; only _Indricotherium_ and _Mammuthus sungari_ were larger." This is also why I think it should have all good saves like a dire animal.


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## Leopold (Jun 18, 2009)

I like the oliphants stats and the thought of good saves. This thing is a monster for size and predates everything before it as wikipedia said. Give it the good saves.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 18, 2009)

OK, if it's that serious, we should definately give it the higher stats, then!


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## Shade (Jun 18, 2009)

So, dire SQ and Str 32, Dex 11, Con 23, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 5?   If we boost the Str or Con any higher, we'll be in wooly mammoth and indricothere territory, which are its "superiors".


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## Leopold (Jun 18, 2009)

those stats are fine. LIl stronger, lil tougher, much dumber


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## Shade (Jun 19, 2009)

Increase HD?  It currently has less than an elephant!

Here's the progression of the mentioned creatures, and where it should fall in the hierarchy...

Elephant: 11 HD
Mastodon: 15 HD
*Deinotherium*
Indricothere: 16 HD
Wooly Mammoth: 14 HD


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## Leopold (Jun 19, 2009)

Make it 13HD


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jun 19, 2009)

I was going to say 14 HD, but 13 would be fine.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 20, 2009)

Let's go with 13. Not enough creatures have 13 HD.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2009)

That's 'cause critters with 13HD get a luck penalty.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jun 20, 2009)

Well, I figured there had to be _some_ reason that so few creatures have 13 HD...


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Let's figure out damage.  Here are the comparables...

Elephant: Slam 2d6, stamps 2d6, gore 2d8, trample 2d8+15
Mastodon: Slam 2d8, stamps 2d6, gore 3d8, trample 2d12+16
Mammoth: Slam 2d6, stamps 2d6, gore 2d10, trample 2d8+18


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## Leopold (Jun 22, 2009)

Modified mammoth:
Mammoth: Slam 2d8, stamps 2d6, gore 2d8, trample 2d8


Bigger head/trunk to batter mobs around. Legs are decent for stamp. Downward tusks makes gore difficult and they don't look anywhere near as massive as an elephants. Trample is the same. It's a big 5 -7 ton monster, it's gonna hurt!


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2009)

That sounds about right.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jun 22, 2009)

Ditto.


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## RavinRay (Jun 22, 2009)

Same here.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2009)

Updated.

Should we add slam and/or stamp to the Attack line?  It seems doubtful that a gore would be its usual opening attack (with the poorer reach).

Feats: 5

Elephant Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Iron Will, Skill Focus (Listen)

Mastodon Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Improved Natural Attack (gore), Improved Natural Attack (slam), Iron Will, Toughness

Mammoth Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Improved Bull Rush, Multiattack, Power Attack

Borrow the mammoth feats, maybe swapping Iron Will in for Improved Bull Rush?


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## Leopold (Jun 23, 2009)

Use gore as an optional attack pattern. Not necessarily it's main attack.

Feats:
Endurance, Improved Bull Rush, Multiattack, Power Attack,Improved Natural Attack (slam)

I'm not a fan of alertness and this thing isn't that smart, it's a big dumb animal. It's tough, it's huge, it'll hurt when it hits you and runs you over.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2009)

We've moved away from Improved Natural Attack (and Improved Natural Armor) since we can set any damage value we'd like.  Best to leave these for enterprising DMs who advance the critters.

Alertness is rather common among herbivores, though.  What better way to not get eaten by a predator than to sense it approaching and avoid it?


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## RavinRay (Jun 24, 2009)

In a forest setting where predators can be lurking behind the foliage? Sounds justifiable.


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## Leopold (Jun 24, 2009)

Alertness is used everywhere. Why I wanted to branch out. 

So no to Imp Natural Attacks. Swap it out with Alertness then.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 24, 2009)

I like the modified mammoth feats, myself, and the damage values look good. Stamp should probably be primary.


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2009)

Updated.

Should it still get the Str-1/2 for the gore?  It doesn't strike me as appropriate here.

Natural armor?

Elephant:  +7 natural
Mastodon: +8 natural
Mammoth: +10 natural

Advancement?

Elephant:  12–22 HD (Huge)
Mastodon: 16-30 HD (Huge); 31-45 HD (Gargantuan)
Mammoth: 15-20 HD (Huge); 21-28 HD (Gargantuan)


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## Leopold (Jun 25, 2009)

1/2 STR is all it has for the gore.  Gotta give it something.  and you figure if it's in close range the only way for it to gore an opponent is to rise up and charge DOWN with it's curved tusks. All that weight is gonna hurt. 

Natural armor:+7 wasn't that tough of skin from the wiki if i remember

Advancement: Mammoth. These were big prehistorical beasties.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 25, 2009)

We actually have a nice little pattern here, and so therefore I suggest fitting the Deinotherium into that pattern, and giving it +9 natural armor.


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2009)

That is a nice pattern.  

Updated.

Suggested tactics?

Does my flavor text and description suffice?


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## Leopold (Jun 25, 2009)

Combat:
Deinotherium will normally attack with it's massive front legs and attempt to crush it's opponents with them using it's great strength and reach or with it's massive trunk. 

If the opponent moves into melee range Deinotherium wil rise on it's hind legs and come crashing down upon it's foe goreing them to death.


Flavor text could use a bit more work but everywhere I search has that same exact line so it might be just simple enough to run with.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 25, 2009)

A massive "relative" of the elephant. Not "ancestor".


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2009)

I thought we wanted 1/2 Str for the gore, not 1-1/2 Str.  

Assuming that, CR 8?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jun 26, 2009)

Leopold said:


> Combat:
> Deinotherium will normally attack with *it's* massive front legs and attempt to crush *it's* opponents with them using *it's* great strength and reach or with *it's* massive trunk.
> 
> If the opponent moves into melee range, Deinotherium *wil* rise on *it's* hind legs and come crashing down upon *it's* foe, *goreing* them to death.



Pardon me for being a grammar Nazi, but I noticed these problems:

Wrong form of "its." "it's" = it is, "its" = possessive.
Also, you misspelled "will" and "goring."
I added some commas.


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## Leopold (Jun 26, 2009)

InsanePsychoRabbit said:


> Pardon me for being a grammar Nazi, but I noticed these problems:
> 
> Wrong form of "its." "it's" = it is, "its" = possessive.
> Also, you misspelled "will" and "goring."
> I added some commas.




Grammar nazi.  
I leave spellcheck, grammar, and all that jazz upto Shade. I'm just the IdeaMan!


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## Shade (Jun 26, 2009)

Don't go all Godwin on this thread!  

Updated.

All done?


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## Leopold (Jun 26, 2009)

looks good. Can we get a dino dino saur next time around? Or a bird or cat? Something besides fat rhinos and elephant clones.


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## Shade (Jun 26, 2009)

Leopold said:


> looks good. Can we get a dino dino saur next time around? Or a bird or cat? Something besides fat rhinos and elephant clones.




Too late, my friend.  You get what's left on the unconverted pile.  About as close as I can get for you is a giant turtle or an armored prehistoric fish.


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## xidoraven (Jun 27, 2009)

Shade said:


> Too late, my friend.  You get what's left on the unconverted pile.  About as close as I can get for you is a giant turtle or an armored prehistoric fish.




Actually, I vote for both of those.  I assume by giant turtle you mean Archelon?  Someone already did the land-walking giant turtle somewhere....

Exactly where is this unconverted pile (ufo list - and by _*ufo*_ I mean _*u*n-*f*inished *o*pportunity/*o*bject_)?  I actually have another potential project for this thread, if the remaining pile is really that drab and repetitive....?

It involves reviewing and refining the creatures listed on the Wizards Dino/Dire index of linked content, some of which drastically needs to be balanced and reviewed for things like CR, physical descriptions, as Animal Companions/Familiars/Mounts, etc.

I am also putting together a list of Dino/Primitive-styled Guardinals and their own leadership (such as _Talisid and the Five Companions_ of the _*Book of Exalted Deeds*_).....  In case that inspires your fancy?
-will


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## RavinRay (Jun 27, 2009)

Shade said:


> Too late, my friend.  You get what's left on the unconverted pile.  About as close as I can get for you is a giant turtle or an armored prehistoric fish.



Speaking of… *BREAKING NEWS! PREHISTORIC DIRE PIRANHA!*
If you think the piranha swarm in _Stormwrack_ was bad enough, a swarm of dire piranhas was truly nightmarish. They made their modern cousins look like goldfish by comparison. Ok, the article below says they may not have been as carnivorous, but still…

*Toothy 3-foot Piranha Fossil Found*

http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/li...057/SIG=10sog4vj6/*http://www.livescience.comlivescience.com          –     Thu Jun 25, 6:02 pm ET
                                  If you thought piranhas were scary, be glad _Megapiranha_ is no longer around.  
_ Megapiranha_ was up to 3 feet long (1 meter) - a fish-beast four times as big as piranhas living today, studies of its jawbones indicate. It lived about 8 million to 10 million years ago and might have been quite comfortable stalking cartoon animals in an "Ice Age" movie.


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## xidoraven (Jun 27, 2009)

Sweet.


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2009)

Deino looks done.



xidoraven said:


> Actually, I vote for both of those.  I assume by giant turtle you mean Archelon?  Someone already did the land-walking giant turtle somewhere....




Anything's good with me! 



> Exactly where is this unconverted pile (ufo list - and by _*ufo*_ I mean _*u*n-*f*inished *o*pportunity/*o*bject_)?  I actually have another potential project for this thread, if the remaining pile is really that drab and repetitive....?




I believe Shade means this thread, which is a list of all unconverted critters we think are animals.  Scroll down in the first post for the prehistoric ones -- we're running out!


> It involves reviewing and refining the creatures listed on the Wizards Dino/Dire index of linked content, some of which drastically needs to be balanced and reviewed for things like CR, physical descriptions, as Animal Companions/Familiars/Mounts, etc.
> 
> I am also putting together a list of Dino/Primitive-styled Guardinals and their own leadership (such as _Talisid and the Five Companions_ of the _*Book of Exalted Deeds*_).....  In case that inspires your fancy?
> -will




Possibly, but I'd like to finish the unconverted stack before revising existing ones, at least the prehistoric critters list.  'Course, if you can help with some of the other conversions, we can get them all done sooner.


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## xidoraven (Jun 27, 2009)

*Archelon and Meiolania*



freyar said:


> I believe Shade means this thread, which is a list of all unconverted critters we think are animals.  Scroll down in the first post for the prehistoric ones -- we're running out!




That is exactly the list I knew you all were pulling from, and of which I was as yet unaware.    Thanks.



freyar said:


> Possibly, but I'd like to finish the unconverted stack before revising existing ones, at least the prehistoric critters list.  'Course, if you can help with some of the other conversions, we can get them all done sooner.




Well, I assumed by ancient turtle you meant Archelon, a well-known one I had on my own personal list for my setting.  And someone on the Wizards forum posted a stat write-up for Meiolania, an ancient land-walking dire turtle of sorts.  So...  maybe there are a few creatures people attempted on that forum and fell short that could spurn on your own imaginations (and make your list grow longer, btw - if only in extinct and known species).  Many of these good attempts were left unchecked and unnoticed.  I am doing a spreadsheet of all of them right now, so I will have a specific list of creatures for everyone within the coming week most likely.

I am not really knowledgeable in any of those other critters, as I have been spending most of my time documenting prehistoric creature stats.  I was saddened to find out that Eberron's 3.5 dinos were so...  well, hazardously fictional.  

Is there a write-up for a modern-day sea turtle anywheres?

Thanks for hearing me out though.  I am not not trying to thread-spam; just connecting loose threads - holes in the fabric, if you will.  Muchos Gracias.
-will


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2009)

Sounds like a good project you've got going!

For the sea turtle, I don't know off-hand, but I'd suggest checking out the "Monster Index" thread at the top of the forum.  If you can find Echohawk's master index, that has all official D&D monsters ever plus conversions.  You should be able to find out what turtles are there.  (Assuming it's not in Stormwrack, that is.)


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jun 28, 2009)

Archelon _is_ in Stormwrack. I just checked.


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## xidoraven (Jun 28, 2009)

InsanePsychoRabbit said:


> Archelon _is_ in Stormwrack. I just checked.




Correct.  So is snapping turtle, but no sea turtle.  Contents of such:

Chapter 7: Monsters . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 135
Amphibious Creature . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 135
Anguillian . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 136
Aventi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 138
Aventi Sergeant . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 138
Blackskate . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 139
Caller from the Deeps . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 140
Crab, Monstrous . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .141
Darfellan . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .143
Darfellan Barbarian . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .143
Dinosaur . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 144
Archelon . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 144
Ichthyosaur . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .145
Mosasaur . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 146
Plesiosaur . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 146
Dire Animal . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .147
Dire Barracuda . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .147
Dire Eel . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .148
Elf, Aquatic . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .148
Aquatic Elf Dolphin Rider . . . . . . . . . . . . .148
Golem, Coral . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 150
Hadozee . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 151
Hadozee First Mate . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 151
Hammerclaw . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 152
Hippocampus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 153
Leech, Giant . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 154
Nereid . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 155
Ramfish . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 156
Scyllan . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 157
Seawolf . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 158
Sisiutl . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 160
Swarm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .161
Jellyfish Swarm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .161
Leech Swarm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .162
Piranha Swarm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .162
Uchuulon (Slime Chuul) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .163
Yugoloth, Echinoloth . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 164
Animals . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .165
Albatross . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .165
Barracuda . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 166
Eel . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 166
Otter . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .167
Sea Lion . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .167
Seal . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .167
Snapping Turtle . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 168
Stingray . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 168
Vermin and Animals, Water-Adapted . . . . . .169
Diving Spider, Monstrous . . . . . . . . . . . . .169
Sea Snake . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 170


Seeing as how there is a listing for otter, it would be an easy goal to make a Potamotherium using it and the Dire Animal templating process.  That one is also on my list.


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## xidoraven (Jun 28, 2009)

*Archelon*

*Transcribed 'Dinosaurs' (actually: all aquatic prehistoric animals, or Primitives - Prims) from 'Stormwrack'.**


Archelon, Ichthyosaur, Mosasaur, and Plesiosaur are presented here:

ARCHELON*
*Huge Animal*
*Hit Dice:* 12d8+84 (138 hp)
*Initiative:* –2
*Speed:* 10 ft. (2 squares), swim 20 ft.
*Armor Class:* 21 (–2 size, –2 Dex, +15 natural), touch 6,
flat-footed 21
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +9/+26
*Attack:* Bite +16 melee (2d6+13)
*Full Attack:* Bite +16 melee (2d6+13)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft.
*Special Attacks:* —
*Special Qualities:* Hold breath, low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +16, Ref +2, Will +5
*Abilities:* Str 28, Dex 7, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 7
*Skills:* Listen +11, Spot +6, Swim +17
*Feats:* Great Fortitude, Toughness (×4)
*Environment:* Warm aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary or pair
*Challenge Rating:* 8
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 13–24 HD (Huge); 25–36 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_This huge turtle is easily 15 feet from nose to tail, with a powerful
beaked jaw. Its feet are large, paddlelike flippers.

_The archelon is a large, primitive sea turtle. While it often
feeds on floating carrion or shellfish it digs up out of the
mud, it is highly aggressive and is not afraid to come up
out of the water in order to reach a meal on shore.

*Combat*
The archelon attacks with a snap of its oversized jaws.

*Hold Breath (Ex):* An archelon can hold its breath for
a number of rounds equal to 10 × its Constitution score
before it risks drowning. For a typical archelon, this is 220
rounds, or 22 minutes.

*Skills:* An archelon has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim
check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. It
can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if
distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while
swimming, provided it swims in a straight line._


Published in *Stormwrack* (Wizards of the Coast, 2005, pp. 144-145)
_*

ICHTHYOSAUR*
*Large Animal
Hit Dice*: 10d8+50 (95 hp)
*Initiative*: +3
*Speed*: Swim 50 ft. (10 squares)
*Armor Class*: 18 (–1 size, +3 Dex, +6 natural), touch 12,
flat-footed 12
*Base Attack/Grapple*: +7/+16
*Attack*: Bite +11 melee (1d8+7)
*Full Attack*: Bite +11 melee (1d8+7)
*Space/Reach*: 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks*: —
*Special Qualities*: Hold breath, low-light vision, scent
*Saves*: Fort +14, Ref +10, Will +4
*Abilities*: Str 20, Dex 17, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 9
*Skills*: Listen +9, Spot +10, Swim +13
*Feats*: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Great Fortitude,
Swim-By Attack
*Environment*: Warm aquatic
*Organization*: Solitary, pair, or school (3–6)
*Challenge Rating*: 6
*Treasure*: None
*Alignment*: Always neutral
*Advancement*: 11–15 HD (Large); 16–30 HD (Huge)
*Level Adjustment*: —

_Dolphinlike in appearance, this creature has a long, narrow jaw
filled with countless small, sharp teeth. It is large and fast, with
a single vertical fin in the center of its back.

_The ichthyosaur is a fast marine reptile. Like a dolphin or
killer whale, it is completely adapted to life in the water; it
has fins instead of feet and a powerful tail for swimming.
It is every bit as dangerous as a shark of the same size.

*Combat*
An ichthyosaur’s jaws are designed for catching small
fish with ease. Against a larger foe, such as a swimming
adventurer, it uses hit-and-run tactics, racing in to snap
and slash with its long, fang-studded jaws.

*Hold Breath (Ex)*: An ichthyosaur can hold its breath
for a number of rounds equal to 6 × its Constitution score
before it risks drowning. For a typical ichthyosaur, this is
120 rounds, or 12 minutes.

*Skills*: An ichthyosaur has a +8 racial bonus on any
Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard.
It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if
distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while
swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.



*MOSASAUR
Huge Animal
Hit Dice*: 15d8+99 (166 hp)
*Initiative*: +1
*Speed*: 10 ft. (2 squares), swim 50 ft.
*Armor Class*: 19 (–2 size, +1 Dex, +10 natural), touch 9,
flat-footed 18
*Base Attack/Grapple*: +11/+28
*Attack*: Bite +18 melee (2d8+9)
*Full Attack*: Bite +18 melee (2d8+9) and tail slap +13
melee (1d8+4)
*Space/Reach*: 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks*: Improved grab, swallow whole
*Special Qualities*: Hold breath, low-light vision, scent
*Saves*: Fort +17, Ref +10, Will +6
*Abilities*: Str 28, Dex 13, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 9
*Skills*: Listen +12, Spot +12, Swim +17
*Feats*: Alertness, Great Fortitude, Improved Natural
Attack (bite), Toughness (×3)
*Environment*: Warm aquatic
*Organization*: Solitary or pair
*Challenge Rating*: 10
*Treasure*: None
*Alignment*: Always neutral
*Advancement*: 16–29 HD (Huge); 30–45 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment*: —

_This fearsome reptilian creature has a long, crocodilian body,
with flippers instead of feet and a finned tail. Its huge jaws are
filled with sharp teeth.
_
The mosasaur is a voracious beast that tries to make a meal
out of anything smaller that it comes across. It can grow to
a length of 40 feet or more, counting its long tail.

*Combat*
A mosasaur attacks with its huge, gaping jaws, and can
deliver powerful slaps of its crocodilian tail as well.

*Improved Grab (Ex)*: To use this ability, a mosasaur
must hit an opponent at least two sizes smaller (Medium
for a Huge mosasaur) with its bite attack. It can then
attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking
attacks of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it
establishes a hold and can try to swallow the target in the
following round.

*Swallow Whole (Ex)*: A mosasaur can try to swallow
a grabbed opponent of up to two sizes smaller by making
a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent
each round takes 1d6+9 points of bludgeoning damage
plus 1d8 points of acid damage from the mosasaur’s
digestive juices. A swallowed creature can cut its way
out using a light slashing or piercing weapon by dealing
20 points of damage to the mosasaur’s digestive tract
(AC 13). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes
the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own
way out.

A Huge mosasaur’s gullet can hold 2 Medium, 8
Small, 32 Tiny, 128 Diminutive, or 512 Fine or smaller
opponents.

*Hold Breath (Ex)*: A mosasaur can hold its breath for
a number of rounds equal to 6 × its Constitution score
before it risks drowning. For a typical mosasaur, this is
132 rounds, or over 13 minutes.

*Skills*: A mosasaur has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim
check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. It
can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if
distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while
swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


*PLESIOSAUR
Gargantuan Animal
Hit Dice*: 16d8+112 (184 hp)
*Initiative*: +4
*Speed*: 10 ft. (2 squares), swim 70 ft.
*Armor Class*: 12 (–4 size, +6 natural), touch 6,
flat-footed 12
*Base Attack/Grapple*: +12/+36
*Attack*: Bite +20 melee (4d6+18)
*Full Attack*: Bite +20 melee (4d6+18)
*Space/Reach*: 20 ft./20 ft.
*Special Attacks*: Improved grab
*Special Qualities*: Hold breath, low-light vision, scent
*Saves*: Fort +19, Ref +10, Will +6
*Abilities*: Str 34, Dex 10, Con 24, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 9
*Skills*: Listen +9, Spot +9, Swim +27
*Feats*: Alertness, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative,
Improved Natural Attack (bite), Rapid Swimming*,
Swim-By Attack*
*Environment*: Warm aquatic
*Organization*: Solitary
*Challenge Rating*: 10
*Treasure*: None
*Alignment*: Always neutral
*Advancement*: 17–32 HD (Colossal)
*Level Adjustment*: —
*New feat described in Chapter 4 of v3.5 supplement, _*Stormwrack*_

_This sleek, reptilian creature has a graceful, turtle-shaped body,
with long, elegant flippers. Its sinuous neck ends in a snakelike
head with extremely sharp teeth.
_
The plesiosaur, among the smartest of all dinosaurs, is
a highly curious beast whose attention is often drawn
to boats and anything out of the ordinary in its territory.
Its many sharp teeth are well-suited to grabbing,
holding, and swallowing fish whole; its slender neck
means it cannot swallow anything more than 18 inches
wide. A plesiosaur averages about 45 feet long, with
its extremely long neck accounting for roughly half
that length.

*Combat*
While not aggressive, a plesiosaur might prod or nudge
something that attracts its attention, such as a small boat
(which from beneath might rather resemble another plesiosaur)
or a clumsy swimmer. If attacked it defends itself
vigorously with a powerful bite. A fully roused plesiosaur
makes good use of its astonishing swim speed, Swim-By
Attack, and the reach granted by its long flexible neck to
make swift hit-and-run attacks.

*Improved Grab (Ex)*: To use this ability, a plesiosaur
must hit an opponent at least two sizes smaller (Large for
a Gargantuan plesiosaur) with its bite attack. It can then
attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking
attacks of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check,
it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the target in
the following round.

*Hold Breath (Ex)*: A plesiosaur can hold its breath for
a number of rounds equal to 10 × its Constitution score
before it risks drowning. For a typical plesiosaur, this is
240 rounds, or 24 minutes.

*Skills*: A plesiosaur has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim
check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. It
can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if
distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while
swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.




_A *note* on dinosaur names_ (Eberron - Common Ethnic name, Draconic name):
*Scientific Name    -  Common Name    -  Draconic Name*
Archelon               -  Giant snapper       -  Haka’hurak’aan
Ichthyosaur           -  Maultooth            -  Ka’khuva’ost
Mosasaur              -  Sea render           -  Vharag’ost
Plesiosaur             -  Fintail titan           -  Haka’paharan’ost


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## Leopold (Jun 28, 2009)

I love having others do all the "hard" work for us 


Prehistoric animals
Agnath, Electric [Dragon #176]
Armored Predatory Fish [Dragon #176]
Deinotherium [Dragon #137]
Elephant, Dwarf [Dragon #167]
Hippopotamus, Giant [Dungeon #56]
Megatherium [Dragon #137]
Turtle, Giant Sea [Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two]

Is all that is left? GROOVY! Almost done with these guys. Might as well roll out the last of the elephants while we got pachydermus on the brain.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 28, 2009)

Megatherium is in the Fiend Folio (and, sort of, in MM2, as the forest sloth). Giant hippos are in Sandstorm.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jun 28, 2009)

Are we going to do the giant prehistoric vermin from Dragon 204? (Or are you planning to do them on the "converting 'real world' animals and vermin" thread?)

*Prehistoric vermin (giant versions)* (yanked from Echohawk's unconverted vermin thread):
Amiskwia [Dragon #204]
Anomalocaris [Dragon #204]
Leanchoilia [Dragon #204]
Marrella [Dragon #204]
Odontogriphus [Dragon #204]
Ottoia [Dragon #204]
Sanctacaris [Dragon #204]
Wiwaxia [Dragon #204]
Yohoia [Dragon #204]


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## Leopold (Jun 29, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Megatherium is in the Fiend Folio (and, sort of, in MM2, as the forest sloth). Giant hippos are in Sandstorm.





2 more to cross off the list. Hope shade sees it!


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## xidoraven (Jun 29, 2009)

Leopold said:


> 2 more to cross off the list. Hope shade sees it!




I have both _Fiend Folio_ and _Sandstorm_, so I can transcribe those as well.  I got Protoceratops and Diprotodon from _Sandstorm_ earlier and must have missed or misjudged the applicability of the Giant Hippo entry.  I think there was an entry for Hippopatomus Gorgops on the Wizards forum (one of those that could use another once-over by the refining crew).

_Races of the Wild_ has a few fictional and themed animals, and I have found a few other resources for similar concepts being animal, dino/prim, dire, and beastial in nature.


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## freyar (Jun 29, 2009)

If it's much work typing over things, don't worry about it!  We probably only need it in this thread if it's relevant to a particular conversion we're doing.


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2009)

*Armored Predatory Fish*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Oceans
FREQUENCY: Common
DIET: Carnivore
ORGANIZATION: School
NO. APPEARING: 5d10
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT! 8
HIT DICE: l/2 (1d4 hp)
THAC0: 20
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: None
SPECIAL DEFENSES: None
SIZE: S (1’ long)
MORALE: Unsteady (5)
XP VALUE: 7

This category covers all the small predatory fish that appeared during the Devonian period (405-345 million years ago). These creatures are assumed to have hunted larger prey in schools and may have “ganged up” on the eurypterids before larger predatory fish drove them into extinction. Their bite does little damage, hence the large number of fish attacking. They do not swim as well as their modern counterparts, but their armor class is considerably better due to their heavy bone armor.

Characters only partially armored had best be careful when fighting these things. Although these fish are not intelligent, millions of years spent getting at eurypterids and other armored foes have caused them to evolve very thorough attack plans designed for finding every weak spot in an opponent’s armor. Several dozen fish may attack a lone victim at once, biting every where to find the weak spots (use a lower armor class for the victim if part of his body is unarmored), and you may be sure that leather belts, pouches, pack straps, etc. will be severed. Even for high-level adventures, these fish are useful in nuisance encounters.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #176 (1991).


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## Leopold (Jun 30, 2009)

National Geographic just did a special on these things:

PIRANHA PICTURES: Yard-long "Megapiranha" Fossil Found

these going to be a swarm like rats or other vermin?


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## xidoraven (Jun 30, 2009)

*Dire Fish, Devonian Predatory Fish*
*Small Animal (Aquatic)
Hit Dice:* 2d8+14 (22)
*Initiative:* +4
*Speed:* swim 20 ft. (4 squares)
*Armor Class:* +2 size, +4 Dex, +5/6/7? natural
*Base Attack/Grapple: *+2/-2
*Attack:* Bite 1d6+2
*Full Attack:* Bite 1d6+2
*Space/Reach:* 2 1/2 ft./2 1/2 ft.
*Special Attacks:* -*
Special Qualities:* Deep-dive endurance, Low-Light Vision, blindsight/tremorsense 30?
*Saves:* Fort +, Ref +, Will +
* Abilities:* Str 14, Dex 18, Con 22, Int 1, Wis 6, Cha 3
*Skills:* Listen, Spot, Swim
*Feats:* Power Attack
*Environment:* Any Aquatic (Oceans)
*Organization:* Solitary, family (5-50), or school (51-250)
*Challenge Rating:* 1/2
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement: *3-6 HD (Small), 7-20 HD (Medium)
*Level Adjustment:* -


*Combat*
Deep-Dive Endurance (Ex): Devonian Predatory Fish are experts at diving down to dark abysses where the water pressure is far too immense for land-dwelling creatures.  These creatures suffer no penalties to diving into deep sea, and do not need to make checks to avoid damage by deep-sea water pressure.
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Oceans
FREQUENCY: Common
DIET: Carnivore
ORGANIZATION: School
NO. APPEARING: 5d10
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT! 8
HIT DICE: l/2 (1d4 hp)
THAC0: 20
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: None
SPECIAL DEFENSES: None
SIZE: S (1’ long)
MORALE: Unsteady (5)
XP VALUE: 7

This category covers all the small predatory fish that appeared during the Devonian period (405-345 million years ago). These creatures are assumed to have hunted larger prey in schools and may have “ganged up” on the eurypterids before larger predatory fish drove them into extinction. Their bite does little damage, hence the large number of fish attacking. They do not swim as well as their modern counterparts, but their armor class is considerably better due to their heavy bone armor.

Characters only partially armored had best be careful when fighting these things. Although these fish are not intelligent, millions of years spent getting at eurypterids and other armored foes have caused them to evolve very thorough attack plans designed for finding every weak spot in an opponent’s armor. Several dozen fish may attack a lone victim at once, biting every where to find the weak spots.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #176 (1991).


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## GrayLinnorm (Jun 30, 2009)

After reading the original flavor text, these could probably be a swarm.


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## Rappy (Jun 30, 2009)

Hello folks. I've been a long-time lurker ever since I started looking at these threads in hopes of a thread using WoTC's Alternity conversion rules for Dark*Matter creatures unconverted in d20 Modern (but that's a story for another day, I guess. I don't hold it against y'all that it was never done...there's a ton of DnD material to pour over  )and stayed for all the fascinating conversions that were going on. 

Recently, Xidoraven's posts over at the WoTC forums reminded me that I wanted to help out around here, so I figured my palaeontological hobbyism would make this a good thread to start. And now that the deinotherium has been moved away from, I felt prepared to join in. Aaaanyway...

When they refer to these creatures as "Devonian predatory fish", they're presumably referring to cheirolepis or its ilk. Working under this presumption, a swarm of them would have a fairly nasty bite, possibly with the wounding quality if you want to make them even nastier (and it wouldn't be unprecedented considering the rather vicious needle-array shape of its maw).

Secondly, if this is cheirolepis, I'd up the speed some. They wouldn't be marathon runners, but they have a fairly streamlined "long bullet" body that would produce a bit more than 20 feet (most likely 30, possibly 25 if you want to keep it closer to the original speed). 

Third...yeah, it's probably best done as a swarm. Cheirolepis wouldn't be much of a threat to a humanoid adventurer on its own, but in a swarm it could be very hazardous.


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## freyar (Jul 1, 2009)

I have to agree with everyone else; swarm does seem best (and a nasty one!).

PS.  xidoraven, looks like a good start at an individual!  And, Rappy, welcome!  Please feel free to help out whereever you'd like!


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2009)

Rappy, welcome!   We can always use some more palaeontological input on these conversions.  

Swarm sounds good.

So, take xidoraven's individual stats, move them into the swarm "template", and increase the speed and add wounding as Rappy proposed?

And for the less paleontologically inclined (like me), here's more info on Cheirolepis:

Cheirolepis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## freyar (Jul 1, 2009)

We'll have to change the damage around, but xidoraven's ability scores look like a good starting place.  Increased speed and wounding are also good.


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## Leopold (Jul 1, 2009)

That woudl be a good start Shade.

Also, did you see the above where they had 2 of the monsters on the list already done in other products? Did we remove those from the TODO list?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 1, 2009)

Well, if they're small, they can't be a swarm. So we should convert the base creature down a size, I think.


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## freyar (Jul 1, 2009)

That's true.  And 1 ft long is more Tiny anyway.


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2009)

Leopold said:


> That woudl be a good start Shade.
> 
> Also, did you see the above where they had 2 of the monsters on the list already done in other products? Did we remove those from the TODO list?




Echohawk created and maintains those lists, so we'll have to let him know.  Did anyone reply to that thread yet?


Suggested HD for the swarm?   A piranha swarm has 8 HD.


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## freyar (Jul 1, 2009)

These should be a bit tougher.  10 or even 12HD?


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## Leopold (Jul 1, 2009)

Shade said:


> Echohawk created and maintains those lists, so we'll have to let him know.  Did anyone reply to that thread yet?



nope I thought that was your territory, didn't want to step on toes and such



> Suggested HD for the swarm?   A piranha swarm has 8 HD.




I like the 10HD for it.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 2, 2009)

How about a compromise solution of 11 HD? 11, like 13, doesn't get much love.


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## Rappy (Jul 2, 2009)

I wouldn't object to that. Cheirolepis isn't a juggernaut, but it would be stronger than a piranha. Thus, it makes sense that the swarm would surpass it, but not by an absurd amount.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2009)

11 HD it is, then.

Piranha swarm has Str 4, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2.

Increase Str and Con a bit?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 2, 2009)

Agreed. Str 6, Con 14? The Str isn't going to do much, but it seems flavorful. An increased natural armor bonus also strikes me as a wise thing to do.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.  

I increased natural armor by 3...is that enough?

I kept the piranha swarm's swim speed of 40 feet.  Is that too fast?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 2, 2009)

Let's slow them down to 30ft.


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## Echohawk (Jul 2, 2009)

Shade said:


> Echohawk created and maintains those lists, so we'll have to let him know.  Did anyone reply to that thread yet?



I am still here and keeping an eye on the threads, but I've been hectically busy with work so I'm a little behind in keeping the unconverted totals up-to-date. I should get caught up this weekend.


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## Rappy (Jul 2, 2009)

On the speed: Cheirolepis would have most likely been slower than a piranha but fast enough to outclass the sluggish but well-armored antiarchs on the sea floor. So yeah, 30 feet works dandy.

On the armor: It sounds about right, although I might suggest decreasing it to +3. +4 is encroaching on the small monstrous crab, which cheirolepis most certainly isn't. It did have a thick scale "plating", but it's not comparable to a chitonous outer shell or carapace. The closest modern fish I'd compare cheirolepis's skin to would be my native alligator gar; it's thick and tough, but it's not exactly a haulting shell.


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2009)

Agreed to 30 ft and +3 natural.  Put some wounding on that swarm damage?


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## Rappy (Jul 3, 2009)

I'd say so. Although since I was the person who originally brought up that idea, I may be biased.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 4, 2009)

I approve of wounding in general.


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## RavinRay (Jul 4, 2009)

11 HD also sounds good for this swarm. Incidentally,despite the "armor" in its nickname it is unrelated to the _Dunkleosteus_ we did way back.


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## xidoraven (Jul 4, 2009)

Rappy said:


> Recently, Xidoraven's posts over at the WoTC forums reminded me that I wanted to help out around here, so I figured my palaeontological hobbyism would make this a good thread to start. And now that the deinotherium has been moved away from, I felt prepared to join in. Aaaanyway...
> 
> When they refer to these creatures as "Devonian predatory fish", they're presumably referring to cheirolepis or its ilk.




Good to see you here, Rap......py.......torial......  So glad I could helpy fuel your muse.  



freyar said:


> PS.  xidoraven, looks like a good start at an individual!  And, Rappy, welcome!  Please feel free to help out whereever you'd like!




Thank you.  It was a fair attempt, and I enjoy having it refined by the 'experts'.  

Sorry I posted then jet for a few days.  That was not what I had planned, but then had to run out of town for longer than expected.    I am really happy to help, especially to incite motion to stagnant waters - I seem to be good at it for this purpose.

What I have so far of the list of currently-posted stats of everything prehistoric (dinos & prims from A to Sinocalliopteryx), with CRs, Environments, and Notes about the entries & creatures).  This is only half-finished, but will be completed soon, and I will post all my notations on reviews and empty informations spots when it is completed up to this point.

I am also home again now, so I will get to posting the stats for the published critters in Fiend Folio, Frostburn, Sandstorm, & Stormwrack - possibly later today.  I found few if any other examples of dinos in many other publications, but I am still looking.

I would love to have a completed ecology of CR and Environment tables for a prehistoric fantasy setting within the next month or so - starting small in a local region, and progressing outward as the info is compiled.  I know that sounds like a hasty deadline, but honestly most of the hard work has been done on dino/prims - allowing me to put together a fully-functional spreadsheet for making these tables.

Sorry for the novel, all.   
-will


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## xidoraven (Jul 5, 2009)

*Animals, Fictional Animal Creatures, and Dinos/Dires/Prims - part 1*

_*Animals, Dinos, Prims, Dires, & Beastland-specific critters*_






(**_All of these creatures were added from *Stormwrack*, 2005 - v3.5 pdf file_)


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## freyar (Jul 5, 2009)

These are great, xidoraven, but do you mind sliding them into a different thread?  Kind of makes it hard to follow the conversion discussion.


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## xidoraven (Jul 5, 2009)

freyar said:


> These are great, xidoraven, but do you mind sliding them into a different thread?  Kind of makes it hard to follow the conversion discussion.




http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...erting-prehistoric-creatures.html#post4853206

I think I did that right.  I pressed 'Fork to New Thread'....  Was that what you meant?  Should I delete this one now?
-will


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Jul 5, 2009)

*Happy 4th*

Hope I'm not too late for this, but for all of my fellow Americans, Happy Independence Day!


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## freyar (Jul 5, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...erting-prehistoric-creatures.html#post4853206
> 
> I think I did that right.  I pressed 'Fork to New Thread'....  Was that what you meant?  Should I delete this one now?
> -will



The other thread looks pretty good! Maybe you could just hide the text here in an sblock?  You just put <sblock> </sblock> around the text, except with [ instead of <.  Like this: [sblock]This is my sblock.
Sorry if you know this already; a lot of people don't.[/sblock]

It's good material, I just have a tough time following what we're working on with blocks of other stats popping up.  It happened in another thread recently, and we had to split that one, too.


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## xidoraven (Jul 6, 2009)

Thanks, freyar.  I appreciate the help and suggestions.  I am one of those that is not so saavy in this forum's coding style - I am more proficient in wiki, html, actionscript, music, and English...    Everyone needs a little helping hand ever so often.  

I deleted the content except for the summon list img/table, and posted a link to the forked thread.  That works for me if it works for you.  I will just post a link to the thread when I have updated it with a new publication.  I have four pdfs on my screen right now, plus Sandstorm and Fiend Folio in the other room, to make sure that we have all applicable critters for prehistoric-style campaign settings (like the one I am putting together for this new game for my buddy's character!).

Spoiler is a nice touch though....  I almost regret having deleted the material just to try it out and see how cool it is....  :/  Oh well.  Stormwrack took effort only because I tried formatting for bold and italics in the first part....  Then decided that someone else can do that when it gets copied and translated over to its own page.

I personally feel that all entries should also include the following applicable statistics in every animal's block:
-As Familiars. as Companions, as Mounts
-Breeding, Rearing, Training, and Value of Animal/egg/hatchling, etc.

Seeing some entries with it, and some without it is somewhat disheartening to the reputation of these multi-site projects....  At least for me.  Maybe I am taking it too close to heart.   

Happy 4th!  Celebrate independence from....  Wait, are we still independent?  Celebrate freedom!  Best wishes,
-will


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 14
Piranha swarm has Hide, Listen, Spot

Feats: 4
Piranha swarm has Alertness, Improved Initiative, Toughness


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## Leopold (Jul 6, 2009)

Improved Bull Rush?


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## freyar (Jul 6, 2009)

Or Ability Focus (distraction)?  Edit: splitting ranks into those 3 skills sounds good.


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## Leopold (Jul 6, 2009)

Hide: 5
Spot:5
Listen:4


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 6, 2009)

I like Ability Focus (distraction). How about we pull a few of those ranks out of Hide and put them into Move Silently?


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## Leopold (Jul 6, 2009)

Move Silently in water?  It's a huge swarm of fish.

After seeing fish spawn and pool there is no way this thing can do anything but move as a giant mass of death and teeth.

This is from a simple feeding video, not the same as seeing salmon spawn in the wild or a swarm of them:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FILqDol5yIo]YouTube - Piranha feeding time at ZSL London Zoo[/ame]


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## Leopold (Jul 6, 2009)

Move Silently in water?  It's a huge swarm of fish.

After seeing fish spawn and pool there is no way this thing can do anything but move as a giant mass of death and teeth.

This is from a simple feeding video, not the same as seeing salmon spawn in the wild or a swarm of them:
YouTube - Piranha feeding time at ZSL London Zoo


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 6, 2009)

Sure, when they're attacking, they'd be noisy. But let's actually think about this. These guys are not pirahna. For one thing, they're oceanic, rather than living in rivers. In the ocean, the water is clearer, there's less debris to hide behind and visibility is generally higher. And most oceanic predators rely on silence at least in part to sneak up on prey. Sharks aren't exactly known for being noisy.


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2009)

I've never heard a fish coming when I've been underwater!

Plus, there's precedent for Move Silently in the razoreel swarm.  It'll get a great Hide bonus from size alone, so a few ranks in MS seems a good idea.


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## freyar (Jul 7, 2009)

I'd be for dropping Hide ranks and putting them in Move Silently.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 7, 2009)

Maybe half and half.


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## Rappy (Jul 7, 2009)

I side with Demiurge on the skills suggestion. As for feats, well...yeah, again, Demiurge spoke my thoughts. Cheirolepis would probably be like a swarm of aquatic Devonian hornets: disturbing, easily distracting, and painful.


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## xidoraven (Jul 7, 2009)

I side with Cheesecake!

....Speaking of Ability Focus (distraction)....  hehe.  Sorry.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2009)

Updated.

I added "A cheirolepis swarm uses its Dexterity modifier instead of its Strength modifier for Swim checks" like some other low-Strength creatures.

For the remaining 3 feats, are we borrowing from the piranha swarm (Alertness, Improved Initiative, Toughness)?   If so, I'd prefer to drop Toughness, since it's worthless at its HD.  Maybe Stealthy or Skill Focus (swim)?


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## freyar (Jul 7, 2009)

Alertness, Imp Init, Stealthy would be my choice, I think.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 7, 2009)

How about Imp. Initiative, Dodge and Mobility? After all, swarms have to enter a creature's space to attack, and Tiny swarms actually fear weapon damage?

The Alertness and Stealthy option works too, but I wanted to offer it for consideration.


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## freyar (Jul 7, 2009)

Dodge and Mobility works; depends on whether these are ambushers or not, I guess.


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## Rappy (Jul 7, 2009)

I'd go with Dodge and Mobility myself. In spite of their size and good speed (for the period), if cheirolepis were to swarm they wouldn't be subtle or stealthy. They'd want to weave in and nip at your heels while you fumble in a vain attempt to get them away.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2009)

Updated.

CR 5?  They are slightly deadlier than a piranha swarm (CR 4), and about on par with a jellyfish swarm (CR 5).

Would anyone familiar with these creatures care to writeup description and flavor text?


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## freyar (Jul 7, 2009)

Let's go for CR 5, then.


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## Rappy (Jul 7, 2009)

CR 5 sounds good, and I can supply this as a potential fluff entry.

_Rushing toward you is a mass of gnashing needle-like teeth in the mouths of creatures vaguely resembling armored herring._

Cheirolepis are distant basal relations to the herring and gar, among other fish. Ranging from just under 2 feet to 3 feet in length, their swarming colonies prod and snap around the rocks and weeds of the shallow coastal oceans in search of crayfish and small placoderms, which they promptly snap into with their needle-sharp teeth. Larger colonies can even threaten large eurypterids (sea scorpions) or monstrous crabs.

Humanoids are not within the typical dietary range of a cheirolepis but are a perfect target for an ankle-biting warning swarm. In spite of this, there is danger of potential consumption if someone is foolish enough to let their guard down while bleeding in the water; as such, the most common encounters with cheirolepis an adventurer will have is right after fighting a larger creature and flooding the scent of blood into the water around them. Their jaws can stretch into a wide arc to allow for chunks of flesh at least as large as they are to be ripped out by their labyrinth of teeth, causing heavy bleeding and potential arterial cuts.

*Combat*
Cheirolepis attack by swarming over their opponents and letting their wide-hinging jaws grasp over as much exposed flesh as possible as their needle-sharp teeth sink in and rake along the body.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 7, 2009)

Looks good!


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2009)

Fantastic!

Updated.

Ready for the next one?


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## Rappy (Jul 8, 2009)

I'm ready if the others are.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 8, 2009)

Totally ready. Those turned out rather well. What's next?


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2009)

These are still awaiting conversion...

*Agnath, Electric*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Shallow ocean bottoms
FREQUENCY: Common
DIET: Omnivore
NO. APPEARING: 1d4
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT! 4
HIT DICE: 1/2 (1d4 hp)
THAC0: 20
NO. OF ATTACKS: None
DAMAGE/ATTACK: None
SPECIAL ATTACKS: None
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Electrical discharge
SIZE: S (1. long)
MORALE: Unreliable (3)
XP VALUE: 15

Agnaths are the first fish of any type to appear in the oceans of the world. These creatures are small bottom dwellers, slowly gliding over the sea bed while grubbing up whatever organic matter they can find in the mud. They have no regular jaws or biting teeth, relying solely on a passive defense. All agnaths, even those without special powers, have heavy armor for protection.

Some agnaths in fantasy universes have developed a special defense mechanism. If an enemy grabs (or in the case of adventurers, steps on) the fish, it generates an electrical shock. This should be considerable, as it was meant to be used against the man-sized eurypterids described next. The electrical jolt does 1-4 hp damage in a 5’ radius underwater, double that if the target (presumably human or humanoid) is clad in metal armor. The agnath will not actively seek combat, but the existence of this creature should at least make characters watch where they put their hands and feet when in murky water.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #176 (1991).

Agnatha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We might also use it as a springboard for other swarms or giant versions of fossil agnathans.


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## freyar (Jul 8, 2009)

Ooh, I get nice illithid-y vibes from the Cephalis sketch on wikipedia for some reason. 

Let's start with the electric and maybe do a giant mundane version, I think.

For the electric one, Tiny magical beast?

Borrow/modify this from the shocker lizard:

Lethal Shock (Su): Whenever two or more shocker lizards are within 20 feet of each other, they can work together to create a lethal shock. This effect has a radius of 20 feet, centered on any one contributing lizard. The shock deals 2d8 points of electricity damage for each lizard contributing to it, to a maximum of 12d8. A Reflex save (DC 10 + number of lizards contributing) reduces the damage by half.


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## Leopold (Jul 8, 2009)

These would be lamprey like or we going with the Whale shark type of feeding off shrimp/plankton?

Found a lamprey here, could be a good baseline:

Lamprey CR 1/2

N Small animal (aquatic)

Init +3; Senses blindsense; Listen +2, Spot +2
Defense

AC 15, touch 14, flat-footed 12
(+3 Dex, +1 natural, +1 size)

hp 5 (1 HD)

Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +1

Weakness susceptible to fire
Offense

Spd swim 30 ft.

Melee bite +4 (1d3-1)

Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.

Special Attacks attach, blood drain
Statistics

Str 9, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2

Base Atk +0; Grp -5 (-1 attached)

Feats Weapon Finesse

Skills Listen +2, Spot +2, Swim +9
Special Abilities

Attach (Ex) A lamprey that hits with its bite attack latches onto the victim’s body. An attached lamprey loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and can use blood drain on subsequent rounds. An attached lamprey can be struck by a weapon or grappled, but it receives a +4 bonus when opposing grapple checks. To remove a lamprey through grappling, the victim must successfully pin the lamprey. A lamprey receives a +4 bonus to any grapple check to resist a pin due to the incredible strength of its mouth.

Blindsense (Ex) A lamprey can locate creatures underwater within a 30-foot radius. This ability works only when the lamprey is underwater.

Blood Drain (Ex) Once a lamprey has attached itself to a victim, it can drain blood at the start of each subsequent round. A lamprey inflicts 1 point of Constitution damage each round it remains attached.

Susceptible to Fire (Ex) Lampreys make their saving throws against fire-based attacks with a -2 penalty.

Skills A lamprey can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 9, 2009)

I do not like them as attachers. I don't think it's ever been determined what they eat, but they're slow and bulky-armored, so the stealthy parasite route doesn't work. I'm going to go ahead and guess that they scraped algae from rocks or something like that.


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## Rappy (Jul 9, 2009)

Agnaths _do_ include lampreys. If we use the prehistoric cephalaspidomorphs, however, we're looking at a suctioning bottom-feeder in a suit of armor. Interestingly enough, there is a precedent for cephalaspidomorphine electrical organs, so the electrical agnath could very well be an example of them.


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2009)

Rappy said:


> Agnaths _do_ include lampreys. If we use the prehistoric cephalaspidomorphs, however, we're looking at a suctioning bottom-feeder in a suit of armor.



The original D&D text suggests bottom-feeding, so let's go that route.



> Interestingly enough, there is a precedent for cephalaspidomorphine electrical organs, so the electrical agnath could very well be an example of them.




Interesting, do you think we could stick to animal instead of magical beast?  Is a 5 ft radius burst at all reasonable for a natural electric organ?  Can you tell I'm not a biologist?


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## Rappy (Jul 9, 2009)

freyar said:


> Interesting, do you think we could stick to animal instead of magical beast?  Is a 5 ft radius burst at all reasonable for a natural electric organ?  Can you tell I'm not a biologist?



While most gymnotiform fishes capable of forming electrical discharges only produce longer-rang fields for what D&D would classify as blindsight, there are unsubstantiated reports of electric eels managing to take down prey from at least 20 feet away. So...no, 5 feet certainly isn't a problem.


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## RavinRay (Jul 9, 2009)

Ooh, electric fish, how juicy. As it so happens, I have an old Scientific American article in the office about the fish _Gymnarchus_, and it shows that electric abilties evolved independently in several different lineages of fish. And it does have that low-level electrical field that as rappy said is functionally blightsight, and that more powerful electrical burst. Five feet for the agnathan is fine for me.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2009)

So stick with Tiny and 1/2 HD?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 9, 2009)

Maybe Tiny and one full HD.


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2009)

Tiny animal.  Either 1/2 or 1 HD is ok by me, leaning slightly toward 1.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2009)

The lamprey ability scores Leopold posted upthread seem servicable, although I could see reducing Dex and perhaps increasing Con.

Suggested natural armor for these "armored fish" ?


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2009)

Let's just swap the Dex and Con, I think.  To get the original AC of 15, that would mean +2 natural, but with "armor" I could see going to +3.


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## Leopold (Jul 9, 2009)

Str 9, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2

Natural armor +4


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2009)

Leopold said:


> Str 9, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
> 
> Natural armor +4



Or that.  

Though I wonder if we're starting to creep the AC a little too high for such a small critter.


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## Leopold (Jul 9, 2009)

you posted just as I was typing.

+4 may be a bit much. The lamprey (it's relative) had a +1 and with it's dex being lowered this would give it a +6 overall with it's size.

+3 is probably better suited then.


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2009)

I think your ability scores are good.  I actually like them a little better, since I hadn't noticed that the lamprey doesn't have 3 odd, 3 even stats.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2009)

Looking good.

For electric damage, lets stick with 1d4 as the original but not allow a save due to the conductivity of salt water.  Also, do we want to retain the double damage to characters wearing metal armor?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 10, 2009)

I think we should allow for a save... but have creatures in metal armor take a -4 to it.


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2009)

That's a good idea!  Increase to 1d6 damage, save for half?


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2009)

That all sounds reasonable to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 10, 2009)

Agreed to freyar's suggestion.


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2009)

Updated.

Blindsense x ft.?

Skills: 4

Feats: 1

Environment: Warm aquatic?

Organization: Solitary or school (2-4)?


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2009)

30 ft?

Spot 2, Listen 2

Ability Focus (electric discharge)

Env and org look ok, though the school could be larger (up to 8 or 12 maybe).


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## Rappy (Jul 11, 2009)

Blindsense 30 ft. sounds fine.

The skills...maybe put a rank or two into Hide, actually. Cephalaspis would be raking around in the mucky bottom waters, and it wouldn't be too far a stretch to say possibly actually partially burying themselves in said muck.

Ability Focus is good.

I agree on a larger school.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 11, 2009)

One rank Hide, one of Listen, two of Spot?

Feat sounds good.


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## Rappy (Jul 11, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> One rank Hide, one of Listen, two of Spot?
> 
> Feat sounds good.



Yep, that sounds fine to me.


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## freyar (Jul 11, 2009)

I'll agree to all of that.

Let's fill in some blanks for Shade!
CR: 1?  It has decent AC and DC on the electricity when we factor in the feat.  Could almost be CR 2 even.

An electric agnath is about 1 foot in length and weighs x pounds.

Does one of our paleontology experts want to write a description and/or tactics section?


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## Rappy (Jul 12, 2009)

Sure thing. The Dark*Matter thread's kinda silent right now with all the big thread activities, so this gives me something else to do. 

_Slowly paddling along the bottom of the murky shallows is a fish resembling an obese salmon in armor. Its head has a wedge-like shape that it uses to plow into the mud._

Electric agnaths are plodding shallow-water fish in the order known as cephalaspids. Spending most of their time lazily wallowing in the detritus that they pry microbes and shellfish out of, agnaths are rarely seen, and when they are encountered it is usually the result of a careless adventurer stepping on one by mistake.

For all their dopey-looking air of harmlessness, these aquatic bottom-feeders are best left alone due to their hard shells and their capability to create a vicious electrical shock. This electricity is generated from bony ossicles known as electroplaques that are embedded along the length of its spinal armor. The electric agnath is often nicknamed "paladin lighter" due to their increased hazard for any armored warrior trudging through their waters.

*Combat*
When endangered, the first strategy of an electric agnath is to attempt to bury itself in the mud and act like a stone in the detritus. If this doesn't work, it will proceed to violently discharge current from its electroplaques in an attempt to dissuade further provocation.


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## freyar (Jul 12, 2009)

Looks good!  Weight?  CR 1 look right?


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## Rappy (Jul 12, 2009)

Taking a red-bellied piranha and upping the weight to account for armor gives about 7 pounds. Sound good?

And CR 1 is fine.


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## Shade (Jul 13, 2009)

Fantastic work, everyone!

Updated.

All finished?


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## freyar (Jul 13, 2009)

I'm happy with it.


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## Leopold (Jul 13, 2009)

Looks good to me.


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## Shade (Jul 13, 2009)

Giant, non-electric agnath next?


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## freyar (Jul 13, 2009)

Sure!


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## Rappy (Jul 13, 2009)

Sounds good to me. I just got my Internet connectivity back this afternoon, so I'm right on time to get into the new critter.


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2009)

Wow...lots of computer issues around these parts, nowadays!

So how large and how many Hit Dice for our giant agnaths?   Did we want to base them off a specific agnathan?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2009)

I think generic cephalapsid is fine, unless we also want to do a dire lamprey. Large and 5 HD?


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## GrayLinnorm (Jul 14, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I think generic cephalapsid is fine, unless we also want to do a dire lamprey. Large and 5 HD?




The 1e Monster Manual has stats for a giant lamprey and I don't think it's been converted either, so why not?


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2009)

Why not, indeed?  

While we're add it, the hagfish is just begging to get the "giant D&D creature" treatment!


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2009)

Well, giant hagfish would be fun, but a hagfish swarm would be better. Especially since their feeding strategy involves burrowing into still-living animals and chewing their way out through the nutritious organs.


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2009)

How delightfully disturbing!


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2009)

So can we get the 1e giant lamprey stats?


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2009)

1e MM version:

*Lamprey, Giant*
Freq: Rore
# App: 1-4
AC: 6
Move: 9"
HD: 5
% in lair: Nil
Treasure: Nil
Att: 1
Dmg: I-6
SA: Drain blood
SD: Nil
MR: Standard
Int: Non-
Alignment: Neutral
Size: M

Lompreys are leech-like eels which inhabit both fresh ond salt water: They
do not inhabit shallow bodies of water. They feed by biting their victims,
fastening themselves to the hapless creatures with sphincter-like mouths
ringed with cruel teeth. Once attached the lamprey will begin to drain
blood on the next and each successive melee round. The rate of blood
drain is equivalent to 2 hit points of damage per hit die the lamprey has.
Thus, o giant specimen will drain blood causing 10 hit points of damage
per melee round.

2e Monstrous Manual version:

Fish #AP AC MV HD THAC0 # of Att Dmg/Att Morale XP Value
*Lamprey, Giant* 1-4 6 Sw 9 5 15 1 1-6 Average (9) 270 

The lamprey feeds by biting its victims, and fastening itself by its sphincter-like mouth. Once attached, the lamprey drains 2 hit points per Hit Die of blood on the next and successive rounds. Sea lampreys are especially susceptible to fire, making their saving throws against fire-based attacks with a -2 penalty.


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## RavinRay (Jul 16, 2009)

A Medium animal (aquatic) with the Blood drain (Ex) ability that results in Con damage, as a baseline. What's the closest bloodsucker, and closest fish to compare it with?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 16, 2009)

The dire eels in Stormwrack, for some reason, are blood drinkers.


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## Rappy (Jul 16, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> The dire eels in Stormwrack, for some reason, are blood drinkers.



The only reason I can think of for that is the fact that lampreys are sometimes erroneously referred to as "eels". So that might actually be a good start for working out our giant lamprey.


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2009)

Dire eels are Large, 6 HD, and have Str 19, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2.

Eels are Medium, 2 HD, and have Str 13, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2.

Moray eels (from Dragon Magazine #328) are Medium, 2 HD, and have Str 12, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2.


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## Leopold (Jul 17, 2009)

I'm stealing this from another conversion:

Str 15, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2

3HD

Lamprey CR 1/2

N Small animal (aquatic)

Init +3; Senses blindsense; Listen +2, Spot +2
Defense

AC 15, touch 14, flat-footed 12
(+3 Dex, +1 natural, +1 size)

hp 5 (1 HD)

Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +1

Weakness susceptible to fire
Offense

Spd swim 30 ft.

Melee bite +4 (1d3-1)

Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.

Special Attacks attach, blood drain
Statistics

Str 9, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2

Base Atk +0; Grp -5 (-1 attached)

Feats Weapon Finesse

Skills Listen +2, Spot +2, Swim +9
Special Abilities

Attach (Ex) A lamprey that hits with its bite attack latches onto the victim’s body. An attached lamprey loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and can use blood drain on subsequent rounds. An attached lamprey can be struck by a weapon or grappled, but it receives a +4 bonus when opposing grapple checks. To remove a lamprey through grappling, the victim must successfully pin the lamprey. A lamprey receives a +4 bonus to any grapple check to resist a pin due to the incredible strength of its mouth.

Blindsense (Ex) A lamprey can locate creatures underwater within a 30-foot radius. This ability works only when the lamprey is underwater.

Blood Drain (Ex) Once a lamprey has attached itself to a victim, it can drain blood at the start of each subsequent round. A lamprey inflicts 1 point of Constitution damage each round it remains attached.

Susceptible to Fire (Ex) Lampreys make their saving throws against fire-based attacks with a -2 penalty.

Skills A lamprey can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## freyar (Jul 20, 2009)

Maybe something between the dire eel and the lamprey Leopold found in terms of ability scores?


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## xidoraven (Jul 20, 2009)

Shade said:


> While we're add it, the hagfish is just begging to get the "giant D&D creature" treatment!




I 185% agree.  I even considered while reading about this creature somewhat earlier: creating a tauric giant variety with the upper body of a sea hag but with the hagfish face; a wonderful abomination of the gods.


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## Shade (Jul 20, 2009)

freyar said:


> Maybe something between the dire eel and the lamprey Leopold found in terms of ability scores?




Good idea.



xidoraven said:


> I 185% agree.  I even considered while reading about this creature somewhat earlier: creating a tauric giant variety with the upper body of a sea hag but with the hagfish face; a wonderful abomination of the gods.




Very cool concept!


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## freyar (Jul 20, 2009)

How about Str 17, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2?

That hagfish idea is totally awesome!


----------



## Rappy (Jul 20, 2009)

freyar said:


> How about Str 17, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2?



That sounds good, although I'd bump up the lamprey's Constitution just a wee bit.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 21, 2009)

Bump Con, reduce Dex, maybe? Dex 13, Con 16?


----------



## Rappy (Jul 21, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Bump Con, reduce Dex, maybe? Dex 13, Con 16?



That sounds great.


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2009)

Works here, too.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

So to summarize...

We're calling this "Dire Lamprey"?

It's Medium?

Str 17, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2?


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2009)

That works for me if everyone else likes it!


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 21, 2009)

That looks about right to me.


----------



## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2009)

To our experts: should this be a stealthy hunter?  If so, the ranks should go to Hide.


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## RavinRay (Jul 22, 2009)

Yup; as a general rule long, eel-like aquatic predators are more of wait-and-ambush because their bodies permit quick bursts of energy rather than tuna and similarly-shaped animals that cruise for prey in open waters.


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2009)

So all 8 ranks in Hide?

Should it have scent, like the eels?

Feats: 2


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 23, 2009)

Scent makes absolute sense. Skill Focus (Hide) and Imp. Init for feats.


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## Shade (Jul 23, 2009)

Updated.

Does the blood drain amount look appropriate (it's lifted from the dire weasel)?

Organization: Solitary or x?

Anything else besides CR and flavor text?


----------



## freyar (Jul 23, 2009)

Blood drain looks ok.  Probably a slightly strong CR 3 if there's nothing else to add.


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2009)

We still need Organization.

It's not clear from the Wikipedia entry if these things are anything other than solitary.


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## Cleon (Jul 31, 2009)

freyar said:


> Blood drain looks ok.  Probably a slightly strong CR 3 if there's nothing else to add.




The blood drain looks quite nasty, but seems alright for a Dire version.

I'd suggest giving them a racial bonus to grapple when Attached via their sucker-like mouth. Say, +4. Holding onto prey is their schtick, after all.

At the moment the Dire Lamprey would have great difficulty keeping hold of, say, a Large Shark (which has grapple +12).



Shade said:


> We still need Organization.




If I remember correctly they're solitary by habit, but can be so numerous  that you may get several of them attached to the same prey. So I'd suggest something like Solitary or tangle (2-5) for Organization.

EDIT: Oh, and they congregate in bodies of freshwater to mate, during which time their can be large numbers in one place, but they don't feed at that time.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 1, 2009)

I like tangle as the group noun.


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2009)

Racial bonus to grapple and tangle both appeal to me.


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## Shade (Aug 3, 2009)

Updated.

Anyone want to tackle the description and flavor text?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 4, 2009)

_A large eel-like creature darts into view, its head ending not in jaws, but in a circular toothy sucker._

I'm a little stuck for flavor at the moment.


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2009)

Looks good.

I added some flavor text based on the Wikipedia entry.

Updated.


----------



## freyar (Aug 5, 2009)

I believe the bite damage should have "plus attach" listed, but it otherwise looks good.


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2009)

Good point.  Updated.

Were we wanting to do any more agnaths before moving on?   A giant hagfish, perhaps?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 6, 2009)

Hagfish swarm! Hagfish swarm!


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2009)

Hagfish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Suggested HD?  The leech swarm is 2 HD, Fine vermin.  These sound like Tiny animals, putting them closer to the piranha swarm (8 HD).


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2009)

7HD?  Nice odd number?

We have to do something with that slime!


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 7, 2009)

7 HD is good for me.

I was thinking that the slime would act to entangle opponents.

I'm thinking the core ability of these guys would be infestation. Like the death scarab swarm in Sandstorm, they'd be able to start burrowing into distracted opponents and eat their way out, dealing Con damage.


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2009)

Entangling slime? check.

Disgusting and mean burrowing?  check.


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## Shade (Aug 7, 2009)

Sounds good.

Piranha swarm has Str 4, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2.

A Medium eel has Str 13, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2.

A viper swarm has Str 1, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2.

So it looks like Str is really the only thing we need to work with.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 7, 2009)

Str 4 seems right to me.


----------



## Shade (Aug 7, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Someone want to writeup the entangling slime?


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## Cleon (Aug 7, 2009)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.
> 
> Piranha swarm has Str 4, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2.
> 
> ...




Well a hagfish is a fair bit bigger than a piranha, but not as powerfully built (something like 18-24 inches long versus 6-9 inches if I recall correctly).

So, how about Strength 5?

Not that it makes much difference with a Swarm.


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## Cleon (Aug 7, 2009)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Someone want to writeup the entangling slime?




I thought the Slime was protective, not offensive. Doesn't it coat itself with slime when a predator grabs it, so its attacker is left with a mouthful of nasty ooze instead of hagfish?

Still, hundreds and hundreds of hagfish could be able to produce so much slime they could entrap a creature in it. Hmm, I'm thinking it would be based on the web spell's write up.

*Entangling Slime:* As a standard action, a hagfish swarm can produce huge volumes of sticky slime in the spaces it occupies. All creatures within these spaces except for the hagfish must make a DC X Reflex check or a DC Y Escape Artist save every round or become entangled (q.v.). These creatures remain entangled in the slime even if they leave the spaces occupied by the hagfish swarm, they can attempt a Reflex or Escape Artist check as a standard action to free themselves of their slime coating, but if they are still in contact with a field of Entangling Slime they must make additional saves to avoid becoming ensnared again.

Hagfish slime clogs the gills of aquatic creatures, most marine animals entangled by the slime cannot breathe and risk drowning.

A 5 foot thickness of hagfish slime provides cover, 20 feet provides total cover.

The hagfish swarm moves at half speed while coated in slime, but is not otherwise penalized. By spending a move action a hagfish swarm can shed its Entangling Slime and swim at its full speed. The slime remains behind in the spaces the hagfish swarm occupied and will entangle any creature that enters that area.

The field of slime produced by a hagfish swarm breaks up and dissipates after an hour.​


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2009)

The slime does sound protective (slippery and gill-clogging), but I think a lot of them making "visco-elastic" goop would be possibly entangling.  Sounds like it tangles up gills.

The write up looks good, too!


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 8, 2009)

Slime looks good.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Aug 9, 2009)

Slime looks good, but there's the following issue with Consume:



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Consume (Ex): ...Once *scarabs* have entered a creature...


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2009)

Updated.


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## freyar (Aug 11, 2009)

Make swarm and consume damage the same?  I'm thinking 1d6 or 2d6, as I don't know quite how nasty these should be.

Compared to the dire lamprey we just did, does +1 natural or even no natural armor seem appropriate?


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2009)

Consume deals double the swarm damage for the death scarabs.

2d6 is probably about right for a swarm of that HD range.


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## freyar (Aug 11, 2009)

So 2d6 and 4d6 respectively?  Sounds ok.

Let's go with no natural armor based on size comparison (and just to make it a tiny bit easier to damage these, they're mean!).


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 12, 2009)

I'm okay with no natural armor. They're soft.


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## Cleon (Aug 12, 2009)

Agree on the 2d6 damage and no NA.

Swarms tend to do 1d6 per four HD (round up) and hagfish are mighty squishy.


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## xidoraven (Aug 13, 2009)

*Off-topic question*

I apologize, but need to interject on the current animal topic and ask the experts a question:

Is there a precedent for stats on a skunk's spray somewhere?  I am making a draft of Eomanis (a prehistoric, semi-armored Pangolin) and was trying to bring up the idea of a noxious spray with it on the other forum...

I swear, I am working directly from common knowledge, and pangolins can spray.  It is said that it can be nauseatingly potent and can be acidic and/or dry to be quite tacky - that last bit I got from animal planet channel on tv.

So maybe when there is a need for a next-up creature, Eomanis might get a go-round for consideration?  A link to something skunkly at least?



Btw, I really have learned some things since watching this thread...  I never knew about a hagfish before this discussion took place.  HOWEVER, after watching natgeo channel - I also propose a write-up for the Snakehead fish.  That shiite is some wicked crazy fish, and needs a good statting (amphibious, land-waddling, big-toothed, air-breathing fish?  Seriously!)


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## Cleon (Aug 13, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> I apologize, but need to interject on the current animal topic and ask the experts a question:
> 
> Is there a precedent for stats on a skunk's spray somewhere?  I am making a draft of Eomanis (a prehistoric, semi-armored Pangolin) and was trying to bring up the idea of a noxious spray with it on the other forum...






Well they had Skunks and Giant Skunks in AD&D although as far as I know they have no "official" stats in 3rd edition. Still, I'd suspect there's a 3E conversion of them floating around the web somewhere, and in a pinch you can always use a Ghast or Troglodyte's stench abilities.

After a quick internet rummage I found 3E conversions of the *giant skunk* and regular *skunk* on the Pandius Mystara website. The stats it gives for skunk spray is _nasty_ - nauseated for 2d6+10 rounds on a failed save! This follows the AD&D version, which also could render its opponents helpless with its stench.


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## xidoraven (Aug 13, 2009)

Oh my, that may be a bit extreme, and certainly not what anyone would call balanced (like I am very good at balancing things to begin with!)....  I appreciate that input.  
-will


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## Shade (Aug 13, 2009)

Updated.

Suggested swim speed?

Skills: 10

Feats: 3

Oh, and xidoraven, Eomanis sounds like fun!


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 13, 2009)

Ability Focus (distraction), Dodge, Mobility?


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## freyar (Aug 13, 2009)

Feats sound good.  Does Spot work for their hunting style for skills?


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## xidoraven (Aug 13, 2009)

Shade said:


> Oh, and xidoraven, Eomanis sounds like fun!




Good, then I will stick around and contribute to its debate....  Feel free to copy the stats over here to look at and debate them, and you can most certainly add it to the Creature Catalog when finished.  There is also the beginnings of a dire version in my Wizards forum posting as well.


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## Cleon (Aug 14, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Ability Focus (distraction), Dodge, Mobility?





freyar said:


> Feats sound good.  Does Spot work for their hunting style for skills?




Shouldn't we decide what Feats & Skills a single hagfish has and then add the swarm's on top?

If I recall correctly, a hagfish is almost blind and finds its prey by smell. So I'm thinking it needs Track, Survival & Hide and is more likely to have Listen than Spot. 

Although Ability Focus (distraction) and Mobility are excellent choices for the Swarm version.

How about a single hagfish has Track as a bonus feat with a +4 racial bonus like a wolf +4, plus Dodge to help attach itself to victims, 2 skill points in Hide and 1 each in Listen and Survival?

The Swarm could add Ability Focus, Mobility, plus 4 points in Listen and 2 in Survival for 2 in Hide, 6 in Listen & 4 in Survival.

That works out:

Feats: Ability Focus (distraction), Dodge, Mobility, Track (B)
Skills: Hide +10, Listen +7, Survival +5 (+9 tracking)


----------



## Cleon (Aug 14, 2009)

Shade said:


> Suggested swim speed?




Probably pretty slow. Although they will hunt live prey they are cold-blooded scavengers that mainly feed on the sick and the dead.

The best evidence I could find on the net was paper "_*The notochord of hagfish Myxine glutinosa: visco-elastic properties and mechanical functions during steady swimming*_" (pdf) which suggest their top cruising speed is about one body length per second. Since a biggish hagfish is about 50 cm long, that translates to about 1.1 mph or somewhere between half to a third human walking pace.

So, I'd suggest Swim speed 15 ft.

EDIT: Just found a Google Book page on _*The Biology of Hagfishes*_ by Jørgen Mørup Jørgensen which quotes sustainable speeds of 20-30 cm per second, which suggests an even lower swim speed (Swim 10 ft.?)


----------



## Rappy (Aug 14, 2009)

With that kind of speed, it won't be winning any marathons...then again, it's a hagfish, it doesn't have to.  

In other words, swim 10's fine with me.


----------



## Shade (Aug 14, 2009)

Updated.

Environment: Temperate or warm aquatic?

Organization: Solitary or x (2-x swarms)

Challenge Rating: 5?  It's deadlier than a piranha swarm (CR 4), but nowhere near as tough as a death scarab swarm (CR 7).


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## freyar (Aug 14, 2009)

All those suggestions seem good to me.  Will let our experts tell you organization names.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 14, 2009)

How about a tangle or a knot?


----------



## Shade (Aug 14, 2009)

"Tangle" has a good feel to it.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 15, 2009)

Shade said:


> Environment: Temperate or warm aquatic?




I'd say Environment: Any aquatic.

Some species of hagfish live in cold water, like the *Southern Hagfish* _Myxine australis._



Shade said:


> Organization: Solitary or x (2-x swarms)




We used tangle for Dire Lampreys and it does appear in Swarm organizations. I do like the Rat Swarms infestation as well. Why not use both:
*Organization:* Solitary, tangle (2-4 swarms), or infestation (7-12 swarms)​


Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 5? It's deadlier than a piranha swarm (CR 4), but nowhere near as tough as a death scarab swarm (CR 7).




I think that's about right. Its Consume attack is pretty nasty.


----------



## Shade (Aug 17, 2009)

Updated.

Does the flavor text suffice?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 17, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Does the flavor text suffice?




Looks okay for our purposes.

I am having doubts about the Consume completely destroying the body of slain prey though. Hagfish aren't much good at eating bone, for a start (that duty is usually left to specialists, such as the worm charmingly named the *bone eating snot flower*). How about changing the description to:*Consume (Ex):* A hagfish swarm can attempt to consume prey both inside and out by entering a creature directly through the skin or by crawling into its mouth and other orifices. If a hagfish swarm successfully distracts a foe it surrounds, it takes advantage of the distraction by entering the distracted prey's body. Once hagfish have entered a creature, the victim automatically takes 4d6 points of damage in each subsequent round. If the hagfish swarm slays the prey they can completely strip the flesh off the corpse within a minute, leaving nothing behind but bones and equipment.​


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2009)

Good idea.

Updated.

Are we ready to move on?


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## freyar (Aug 17, 2009)

Think so.


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2009)

Are we finished with the agnaths we wanted to do?

If so, Eomanis awaits.


----------



## xidoraven (Aug 17, 2009)

Shade said:


> Are we finished with the agnaths we wanted to do?
> 
> If so, Eomanis awaits.




We have begun the discussion and posting material here, here, here, here, and here.  I only linked to the postings that contain veritable material on the stats for Eomanis, and this says nothing for its potential dire counterpart.

The whole thread page 65 deals with it in bits and pieces, but there are also other things being posted and discussed too which might make it harder to review the whole page for material (such as the Dinopriminals, which make me very happy - but take up a lot of posting space).

Beyond this, there is a whole plethora of other prehistoric creatures which were posted but not fully reviewed which could really use some expert eyes to tune them up, such as Dimorphodon, Potamotherium, and others.

*dances because Eomanis is up next*
-will


----------



## xidoraven (Aug 19, 2009)

What a big pain in the patoot that Wizards had to go and shut down their site until the 26th or later....  I was not happy to find that out earlier today.

I guess Eomanis will have to be from memory for me until it comes back up - which sucks because I like referencing real information.  So will Dimorphodon and the other creatures listed there as well....  

Something told me in my gut that I should back up the creatures that we posted there...  Sorry all.
-will


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## RavinRay (Aug 19, 2009)

Hey, _Eomanis_. We have a species of _Manis_ in one part of the Philippines. I guess the stat to be worked on in detail is the AC. Also, since the scales are flat and triangular (but not necessarily razor-edged), if they deal slashing damage to predators attempting to grapple a dawn pangolin curled into a ball. If at all.


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## xidoraven (Aug 19, 2009)

For the post I made on Wizards forums, Eomanis had 2 HD, a natural AC bonus of +5, very low Str, average Dex, above average Con.  Also, Defensive Ball (Ex) was a special quality, along with Sticky Tongue and Noxious Spray (forget if they were SA or SQ).  No one had yet considered Noxious Spray (Ex), and I couldn't find a 3.5 precedent for a skunk's spray as a basis for it.

Defensive Ball (and I am remembering, so this may not be totally right) was willingly become prone, sacrificing Dex bonus to AC (not a biggie, since it was +0 anyway), gain a +2 or +4 misc AC bonus (we were still discussing this because I brought up criticals at the last minute), and any creature attacking it with a light or natural weapon attack would make a Ref/Fort save or else take damage (DC was 10 + Con 2 + 1/2 natural AC bonus, round down to 2 = 14).  I got this idea from the original Stegosaurus posting (Dragon mag v. 318) about it - it used its dorsal plates as defense, and would include any grapple attempt as well.

Wikipedia says that typical pangolin scales are indeed razor-sharp, and although small and made of the same substance as fingernails, it should indeed do pierce or slash damage to anyone who messes with it in this manner.  I wish I could give more, but this is as much as I can remember for sure right now.  I really did put a lot of thought into the basis of it though - so I am scared to finalize it before Wizards gets their shart back in order around the end of the month (jerks).

However, there is an incredibly long list of animals which need a thorough review by people who know what they're doing (you all)....  Just in case putting off Eomanis doesn't feel like a fun option (trust me, I am with you on this one...).


----------



## Shade (Aug 19, 2009)

xidoraven - We can hold off on eomanis until you can recover your notes.  Heck, you requested it, so that's the least we can do.  

In the meantime, let's get this one out of the way...

*Elephant, Dwarf*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subtropical wooded islands
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Herd
DIET: Herbivore
NO. APPEARING: 1-20
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 3
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1-6/1-6
SIZE: S (3.high at shoulder)
MORALE: Unsteady (7)
XP VALUE: 65

While giant versions of many mammals lived in the Cenozoic, this elephant went the opposite route. Inhabiting only isolated wooded islands in the Mediterranean and Java, the dwarf elephant looked much like any other elephant, just smaller. 

Combat: The dwarf elephant uses only its tusks in combat, as it is too small to use its feet or trunk.

Habitat/Society: Dwarf elephants live in herds and browse on tree and shrub foliage. In spite of their size, they are used to being the largest creatures on their isolated islands, and no large predators bother them. When confronted by men and other larger creatures, they prefer to run. If sold, the tusks are worth 10-100 gp each. This elephant is the ancestor of the minimal elephants (Monstrous Compendium, “Mammal, Minimal”).

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #167 (1991).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_elephant


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2009)

Want to start by downsizing an elephant to Small and 3 HD?


----------



## Shade (Aug 19, 2009)

Yeah, that seems like a logical start...

Smal Animal
Hit Dice: 3d8 (13 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+1 size, +1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/-2
Attack: Gore +3 melee (1d6)
Full Attack: Gore +3 melee (1d6)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +2
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 12, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 7
Skills: Listen +x, Spot +x (5 total ranks)
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Iron Will, Skill Focus (Listen) [drop two]
Environment: Warm plains
Organization: Solitary or herd (6–30)
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: -


Dex actually changed to 16, but that threw off the AC and made little sense for an elephant, even a small one.


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## Cleon (Aug 19, 2009)

Hmm, I'm thinking this one won't take very long. I'm thinking Medium sized rather than Small, and the 3 hit dice is about right. Shrinking down a SRD elephant would probably be a good start:
Dwarf-Elephant
 (SRD Elephant shrunk 2 sizes)
 Medium Animal
 *Hit Dice:* 3d8+3 (16 hp)
 *Initiative:* +2
 *Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares) *[*_reduced from original's 40 ft._*]*
 *Armor Class:* 14 (+2 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
 *Base Attack/Grapple:* +2/+4
 *Attack:* Gore +4 melee (1d8+3)
 *Full Attack:* Slam +4 melee (1d6+2) and 2 stamps -1 melee (1d4+1); or gore +4 melee (1d8+3)
 *Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
 *Special Attacks:* None *[*_dropped Trample_*]*
 *Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
 *Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +2 *[*Will +4 _if it has_ Iron Will*]*
 *Abilities:* Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 7
 *Skills:* 6 *[*_half in_ Listen, _half in_ Spot _for_ Listen _&_ Spot +4_, or +6 if it has _Alertness*?**]*
 *Feats:* 2 *[*Alertness and Iron Will*?**]*
 *Environment:* Warm plains
 *Organization:* *[*Solitary or herd (2-20)*?**]*
 *Challenge Rating:* *[*1 or 2*?**]*
 *Advancement:* *[*4-6 HD (Medium), 7-9 (Large)*?**]*
 Level Adjustment: —​ I'd be tempted to boost its Con a tad, or swap the Dex and Con to Dex 13 & Con 14, so they're tougher than they're agile, but the basics look good.

 My preference is for giving it an extra 2 Con, thus: Medium Animal
 *Hit Dice:* 3d8+6 (19 hp)
 *Initiative:* +2
 *Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares)
 *Armor Class:* 14 (+2 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
 *Base Attack/Grapple:* +2/+4
 *Attack:* Gore +4 melee (1d8+3)
 *Full Attack:* Slam +4 melee (1d6+2) and 2 stamps -1 melee (1d4+1); or gore +4 melee (1d8+3)
 *Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
 *Special Attacks:* None
 *Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
 *Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +2 *[*Will +4 _if it has_ Iron Will*]*
 *Abilities:* Str 14, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 7
 *Skills:* 6 *[*Listen +4, Spot +4_; or +6 with _Alertness*?**]*
 *Feats:* 2 *[*Alertness, Iron Will*?**]*
 *Environment:* Warm plains
 *Organization:* *[*Solitary or herd (2-20)*?**]*
 *Challenge Rating:* *[*1 or 2*?**]*
 *Advancement:* *[*4-6 HD (Medium), 7-9 (Large)*?**]*
 Level Adjustment: —​


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## RavinRay (Aug 19, 2009)

I agree with Cleon that Medium-size is a better fit; the wyrmling gold dragon pictured next to a humanoid paladin in _Draconomicon_ gives a good gauge of size. And they're found elsewhere as well: California, and in my own backyard (not literally though!).

Anyone remember the minimals from 1e _Monster Manual 2_? That was a long list of down-scaled animals.

I think dwarf elephants still lived in herds, though not necessarily of the same numbers as their bigger cousins.


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## Cleon (Aug 19, 2009)

RavinRay said:


> I agree with Cleon that Medium-size is a better fit; the wyrmling gold dragon pictured next to a humanoid paladin in _Draconomicon_ gives a good gauge of size. And they're found elsewhere as well: California, and in my own backyard (not literally though!).
> 
> Anyone remember the minimals from 1e _Monster Manual 2_? That was a long list of down-scaled animals.
> 
> I think dwarf elephants still lived in herds, though not necessarily of the same numbers as their bigger cousins.




Well they are still the size of a small pony like a Shetland, so probably weighed several hundred pounds. (Their *wikipedia entry* says the Cyprus variety had an estimated mass of 200 kg, or ~440 pounds). That's definitely Medium and not Small. 2nd edition AD&D tended to crudely assign monster sizes based on longest dimension, ignoring issues of shape & weight.

As for whether they lived in herds or not, I'm unaware of any evidence one way or another, but most elephants are social animals so it seems reasonable. I suggested Herd (2-20) for their non-solitary organization, since the AD&D version had 20 as the maximum no. appearing.


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2009)

Excellent information!

I'm in favor of swapping the Dex and Con to Dex 13 and Con 14 as Cleon suggested.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 20, 2009)

Agreed to Medium size and the higher Con.


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Which 2 of the elephant's feats should we retain? 
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Iron Will, Skill Focus (Listen)


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2009)

Keep Alertness and Iron Will, I think.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Aug 20, 2009)

We should keep Alertness and either Endurance or Iron Will.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 21, 2009)

Alertness and Iron Will.


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## Cleon (Aug 21, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Alertness and Iron Will.




You're clearly personages of enormous taste and insight in your Feat choices... since they agree with mine.

What about attacks, are we going to just give it tusk gore attacks like the original, or downsized foot stamps & trunk slams as well? I prefer the latter.

Splitting its Skill points equally and adding Alertness gives in Spot +6 and Listen +6.

That would just leave Challenge Rating, Advancement and Flavour Text / Tactics.

Nearly there!


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## RavinRay (Aug 21, 2009)

Everyone agrees on the Alertness so it's a go. Tusk and trunk attacks are ideal, as it's too small to stamp any Medium-sized PC. (Maybe a prone halfling or gnome, eh?)


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## Cleon (Aug 21, 2009)

RavinRay said:


> Everyone agrees on the Alertness so it's a go. Tusk and trunk attacks are ideal, as it's too small to stamp any Medium-sized PC. (Maybe a prone halfling or gnome, eh?)




I don't believe there's any official rule applying size restrictions to Stomp attacks like their is for Trample, so that doesn't bother me. Besides, the dwarf elephant could always rear up to kick with its forefeet, like Champion the Wonder Horse.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 21, 2009)

I think it should be gore only, like the original.


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## freyar (Aug 21, 2009)

Just gore, I think.  They don't seem like they'd have stamps as natural attacks, though it might be worth mentioning that they can use them as unarmed strikes.

3 ranks each in Listen and Spot, I guess?

CR 2?


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## Shade (Aug 21, 2009)

Agreed to gore only.

Listen 3/Spot 3 sounds about right.

CR 2 seems reasonable.


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## Cleon (Aug 22, 2009)

Shade said:


> Agreed to gore only.
> 
> Listen 3/Spot 3 sounds about right.
> 
> CR 2 seems reasonable.




 Challenge Rating 2 seems to fit. They're pretty close stat-wise to the CR2 Monitor Lizard and Crocodile.


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## freyar (Aug 23, 2009)

3 ft tall at the shoulder, then?

One of our paleontologists want to give us a description, flavor, and some tactics?


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## Rappy (Aug 23, 2009)

How's this?

_This creature resembles a shrunken elephant with sparse, coarse hair dotting its tanned hide._

Dwarf elephants are the results of insular dwarfism on small island chains in the warm regions of the world. Grazing in matriarchal herds of up to 20 individuals or smaller bands of sub-adult bulls, they roam the scrub plains of their fortress-like islands in a near-constant search for food, using their trunks to feed upon the sparse vegetation of scrub bushes found dotting their habitat. While some sea-faring traders attempt to capture dwarf elephants as exotic goods in foreign lands, the natural flightiness (due to many island predators, usually large eagles or monitor lizards, being all too willing to consume the tiny elephants) and fickle diet (mostly endemic shrub bushes of the islands they inhabit) of the species makes them generally unsuitable for such ventures.

A dwarf elephant stands about 3 feet at the shoulder and weighs 300 to 500 pounds.

Thirdly, the pygmy mammoths were 5'+ at the shoulder (the pygmy woolly mammoth was pretty big, being 6-8 feet tall, it just wasn't as big as a regular mammoth, being roughly 2/3rd their size).

So I'd recommend using the Large version of these dwarf elephants for their stats, how about changing that bit to:

*Dwarf Mammoth:* A similar species of dwarf proboscid living on some temperate and cold islands. These animals are roughly twice the size of a dwarf elephant, being 5 to 7 feet tall and weighing around 2000 pounds. Use the stats for a dwarf elephant that has been Advanced to Large size.

*Combat*
Dwarf elephants would rather pursue flight than fight. If they are pressed into combat, however, it's a fairly straightforward act of run and gun, with the largest individuals in the herd rushing the opponent with their tusks before retreating back into the safety of numbers.


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## RavinRay (Aug 23, 2009)

Perfect!


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## xidoraven (Aug 24, 2009)

Rappy said:


> Grazing in matriarchal herds of up to 20 individuals or smaller bands of sub-adult bulls, they roam the scrub plains of their miniature fortresses with These miniature pachyderms take up the same ecological niche as the gerenuk...




I think the posting is wonderful, but I am not understanding this sentence transition...  Am I seeing a cross-post typo, or am I not seeing a missing word here?  I don't know what the correct statement should be for "their miniature [fortresses?] with...  These miniature pachyderms take...........

Aside from this, it is quite excellent Rap.


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## Rappy (Aug 24, 2009)

Fixed. 

I was rather tired when I wrote that.


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## Cleon (Aug 24, 2009)

Rappy said:


> Fixed.
> 
> I was rather tired when I wrote that.




I think the flavour text is fine overall, but I'd suggest a few changes.

Firstly, I don't feel it needs the bit about the gerenuk, so I'd cut it out. Secondly, I think "vegetation in shrub bushes" reads a bit wrong. I'd change the first flavour paragraph:
Dwarf elephants are the results of insular dwarfism on small island chains in the warm regions of the world. Grazing in matriarchal herds of up to 20 individuals or smaller bands of sub-adult bulls, they roam the scrub plains of their fortress-like islands in a near-constant search for food, using their trunks to feed upon the sparse vegetation of scrub bushes found dotting their habitat. While some sea-faring traders attempt to capture dwarf elephants as exotic goods in foreign lands, the natural flightiness (due to many island predators, usually large eagles or monitor lizards, being all too willing to consume the tiny elephants) and fickle diet (mostly endemic shrub bushes of the islands they inhabit) of the species makes them generally unsuitable for such ventures.

A dwarf elephant stands about 3 feet at the shoulder and weighs 300 to 500 pounds.​Thirdly, the *pygmy mammoths* were 5'+ at the shoulder (the pygmy woolly mammoth was pretty big, being 6-8 feet tall, it just wasn't as big as a regular mammoth, being roughly 2/3rd their size).

So I'd recommend using the Large version of these dwarf elephants for their stats, how about changing that bit to:
*Dwarf Mammoth:* A similar species of dwarf proboscid living on some temperate and cold islands. These animals are roughly twice the size of a dwarf elephant, being 5 to 7 feet tall and weighing around 2000 pounds. Use the stats for a dwarf elephant that has been Advanced to Large size.​


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## xidoraven (Aug 24, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Firstly, I don't feel it needs the bit about the gerenuk, so I'd cut it out.




I have found other analogies elsewhere in creature descriptions which help to describe the ecological niche of a creature which no longer exists to be quite helpful, actually.  Please keep it included.  I have no other beefs with input from this post (I am openly uneducated about the rest... ).


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## Rappy (Aug 25, 2009)

Edited. I'm fine with Cleon's rewrite.


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2009)

Fantastic flavor text once again, Rappy!  

Updated.

Did we ever determine Advancement?


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## Cleon (Aug 25, 2009)

Shade said:


> *SNIP*
> 
> Did we ever determine Advancement?




It hasn't been decided as far as I know.

I suggested  4-6 HD (Medium), 7-9 HD (Large) back in post #907.

The SRD Elephant has 11 Hit Dice and advances to double its HD without increasing its size, being 12-22 HD (Huge), but I like the idea of the dwarfs including specimens advancing a size category, since it allows for an overlap with pygmy mammoths.


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## freyar (Aug 25, 2009)

I like Cleon's proposed advancement, including the reasons for it.


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2009)

That works for me.

Updated.   All done?


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Aug 25, 2009)

Yes, it looks good.

While Wizards is down and we're between creatures, I'd like to post a Gorgonopsid that I've made. Is that OK with you guys?


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## freyar (Aug 26, 2009)

Looks done.  IPR, go ahead!


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Aug 26, 2009)

There had always been this one gorgonopsid that had been screaming out to me to give it stats: Rubidgea, with its enormous canine teeth. The only problem was I wasn't able to determine its size. Well I finally did some digging and found by accident a page describing the discovery of a Rubidgea fossil, describing it as 9 3/4 feet long from nose to tail. I figured since we didn't make a gorgonopsid in the big cat size range and the fangs were asking for a Wounding property, I could come up with this nasty beast:

*Gorgonopsid, Rubidgea*
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 6d8+24 (51 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14 
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+13
Attack: Bite +9 melee (1d8+7 plus wounding bite/19-20)
Full Attack: Bite +9 melee (1d8+7 plus wounding bite/19-20)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Augmented critical, wounding bite
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +2*, Listen +5, Spot +5, Survival +5
Feats: Alertness, Track, Weapon Focus (bite)
Environment: Warm plains and deserts
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 5-8 HD (Large)

_About the size of a tiger, this creature resembles both a mammal and a reptile. Its long skull sports a massive maw with enormous saberlike canine teeth. Its muscular frame sits atop pillarlike legs, and a thick tail lashes behind it._

Rubidgea is a large gorgonopsian, a type of carnivorous therapsid ('mammal-like reptile') that predated the dinosaurs. As large as a tiger, rubidgea was able to bring down prey larger than itself with its deadly, saberlike incisors – larger and thicker than those of most other gorgonopsids. Its keen sense of smell allows it to easily track prey over long distances.

Rubidgea are about 8-10 feet long from nose to tail, weighing 300-500 pounds.

*Combat*
A rubidgea savages prey with its saber-like teeth, striking at vital areas to bleed its prey to death.

Augmented Critical (Ex): The saber teeth of a rubidgea strike with deadly precision. A rubidgea's bite attack threatens a critical hit on a roll of 19-20.

Wounding Bite (Ex): A wound from a rubidgea's bite attack continues to bleed after the injury was inflicted. Each wound bleeds for 1 point of damage per round thereafter. Multiple claw wounds result in cumulative bleeding loss (two wounds deal 2 points of damage per round, and so on). The bleeding can be stopped only by a successful DC 15 Heal check or the application of any _cure_ spell or other healing spell (_heal_, _mass heal_, and so on).

Skills: *Rubidgea receive a +4 racial bonus to Hide checks in tall grass.


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## Shade (Aug 26, 2009)

I'd recommend the "old school" wounding rather than the 3.5 wounding, like this...

Bleeding Wounds (Ex): A wound from a nycaloth's claw attack continues to bleed after the injury was inflicted. Each wound bleeds for 1 point of damage per round thereafter. Multiple claw wounds result in cumulative bleeding loss (two wounds deal 2 points of damage per round, and so on). The bleeding can be stopped only by a successful DC 15 Heal check or the application of any cure spell or other healing spell (heal, mass heal, and so on).


Other than that, it looks good!


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Aug 26, 2009)

Actually, that sounds quite good. I'll update it accordingly.


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## Cleon (Aug 26, 2009)

The Gorgonopsid looks great.

The only suggestion I can come up with is modifying the Wounding Bite description to say "Each wound bleeds for 1 *hit point* of damage per round thereafter", just to make it absolutely clear what kind of damage is involved.


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## xidoraven (Aug 26, 2009)

Rabbit is the bomb, and that's all there is to it.   

I like this one.  It reminds me of a big, long-toothed, short-legged version of Lycaenops (one of my favorites).

I am so mad that Wizards is killing my productivity while I have the opportunity to edit the material there...  I now know it would have been worth my time to save a hard copy of my writings as a document on my laptop...  *grumbles*  ....  *saber-tooth tiger bites Wizards in raging anger*  *roars*

ps:  for the record, I want to make a dinopriminal version of one of our therapsids - I was considering Lycaenops as the basis, but I like this one's teeth...  so like I am combining other dinos/prims into the equivalents for dinopriminals, we might just have to make a few extra tweaks to make them awesome....  And yes, I realize that this is completely off-topic for this forum, but without the Wizards forum I am going through withdrawals on my Dinopriminals...  *pulls out hair*


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## RavinRay (Aug 27, 2009)

Hey, we don't want you to lose your hair! 

BTW, I didn't mention this during the dwarf elephant, but have the 1e minimals been converted already. if so which thread?


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## Shade (Aug 27, 2009)

RavinRay said:


> BTW, I didn't mention this during the dwarf elephant, but have the 1e minimals been converted already. if so which thread?




Apparently, the CC crew converted them early in 3rd edition:
Creature Catalog - Preview Template

I took no part in that conversion, and had never looked at it before today!

We can tackle a 3.5 version in the Overhaul thread if you'd like.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Aug 28, 2009)

The Wizards forum just came back up this afternoon and O_O man is is different. Did they really have to change it that much?  I liked it a LOT better when it looked like a vBulletin and I could _*actually see the last 30 or so posts when I reply to something*_. Then again, maybe that's just me; I'm very uncomfortable with change.

Xidoraven, I have a few things for you:

I found something that might help you with making Eomanis: here's Vorpal Tribble's pangolin from Feb 2005.
Also, I've completed a new dinopriminal based on the Gorgonopsians. I had this really great idea to have it cast spells like a sorcerer, yet still be a powerful combatant.


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## RavinRay (Aug 28, 2009)

Shade said:


> We can tackle a 3.5 version in the Overhaul thread if you'd like.



Thanks Shade, but for me it can wait. There are so many prehistoric critters I love to see converted first. But if others want to take a crack at it, then go!


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## xidoraven (Aug 28, 2009)

RavinRay said:


> Hey, we don't want you to lose your hair!




Yeah, WAY too late, but thanks...  



InsanePsychoRabbit said:


> The Wizards forum just came back up this afternoon and O_O man is is different. Did they really have to change it that much?  I liked it a LOT better when it looked like a vBulletin and I could _*actually see the last 30 or so posts when I reply to something*_. Then again, maybe that's just me; I'm very uncomfortable with change.
> 
> Xidoraven, I have a few things for you:
> 
> ...




Oh, my nerves are calming a little....  Yes, you're right - it is vastly different, and I (like you) fear change sometimes.  We gained a wiki, but did we lose anything?  I am not sure....

I like the pangolin here, but I think I like the basis I was considering before.  Improved Low-light Vision might not be bad, but from what I have read they don't have very good sight, and often rely on smell and sound to discern their predators, etc.

I will put together a spreadsheet list and documents together for the dinopriminals to back them up on my hard drive (should that ever happen again), and will look at which niche that idea fills.  I believe it is called a Therapsinal in the main list.

OK, so the link to my original Pangolin post should now be active.

Also: Here, Here, Here, Here, and Here.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Aug 28, 2009)

As far as I can tell, we as Wizards members lost our signatures, our avatars, the proper capitalization of our screen names, a lot of BBcode (lists and quotes are broken), and at least one whole post. Personally, I'm considering moving over to EN World to post things and abandoning the Wizards forums entirely.

Also, I decided to call the therapsid dinopriminal "Gorgonal" since it's based on the gorgonopsians and "gorgonal" sounds cooler to me than "therapsinal."


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## xidoraven (Aug 28, 2009)

You're right, Rabbit - we did lose a lot of our own personal account content, and the formatting looks like poop, but I am not sure of your lost post.  What do you think you have lost?  I myself see all of my previously posted content, so I am not sure about this one point.

In all honesty, I have found this particular thread to be very on-task, dedicated to refined and balanced statistics, and eager to work on precedent and logic.  I agree it would be worthwhile to stay here, but I will likely remain on Wizards as well, if for nothing more than to archive the posts I had made there.  They also now have a wiki, which is not much of a plus for me, since I have always been working on D&D Wiki for things that I want posted long-term.  I had considered suggesting using the new wiki, but it will likely take some time for people to lose their animosity for the new layout before that can be accomplished.

Perhaps we should start a new fantasy-dinoprim thread here, so that we are not clogging up the conversion thread with fiction-fluff (especially for things like the dinopriminals, and feats/classes, etc.).

I am also cool with that idea for the Therapsinal => Gorgonal.  I am not such a fan of the name, but the idea is still the same.  Let's try to combine as many therapsid characteristics as possible if possible, and I still love Lycaenops as an inspiration.  I am also a fan of the image that Wikipedia has listed on the main page for Therapsida of the canine-like creature yawning.  Those make me happy.  And a picture for Gorgonopsid & Gorgopsinal (what about this spelling?):






And for the record, in addition to all the unedited and unrefined creatures that have been drafted on the Wizards threads, there is also still one other web resource that I am referencing for things not listed in either of these other two archives: an html web page by Mark Goodwin (both referenced and original content).


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## xidoraven (Aug 28, 2009)

Okay, so Eomanis/Pre-Pangolin:
*Pangolin* (Vorpal Tribble's 2005)
Small Animal
Hit Dice: 1d8 +3
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20 ft., 20 ft. (climb), 10 ft. (burrow)
Armor Class: 19 (+2 size, +1 dex, +6 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-4
Attack: Claw +2 melee (1d4)
Full Attack: 2 Claw +2 melee (1d4), Slam -2 (1d2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Qualities: Improved Low-light vision, Scent
Saves: Fort 4+, Ref +3, Will +3
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 5
Skills: Escape Artist +2, Hide +7, Listen +6, Spot +6
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Enviroment: Warm Forest or Swamp
Organization: Solitary, Family (2-8)
Challenge Rating: 1/2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always Neutral
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: - 

A pangolin vaguely resembles an ant-eater, with a short body and squat legs. Its head is tiny and narrow with a long snout from which may curl a dextrous, foot-long tongue. Every inch of it is covered in wide, horny plates that overlap one another densely. Its long, flat tail is likewise covered in plates, with the serrated edges developing blunt points. 
*
Combat:*
Pangolins only fight if cornered, lashing out with their serrated tails, or slashing with their long claws. If the odds are against it it will roll into a tight ball, hoping to fend off blows. 

*Armored Ball (Ex):*
A pangolin can roll into a tight ball when threatened, increasing its Armor Class by 4, but losing its dexterity modifier to AC and can take no action. In this state it is also immune to critical attacks. 

*Improved Low-Light Vision (Ex):*
A pangolin is a nocturnal creature and can see three times as far as normal in dim light. 

*Skills:*
A pangolin gains a +6 to Hide, Listen and Spot checks. 

*Familiar:*
The owner of a pangolin familiar gains a +2 bonus to natural armor class


*Eomanis* *(Prehistoric Pangolin)* - by xidoraven on Wizards forum
*Tiny Animal*
*Hit Dice:* 2d8+4 (12 hp)
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* 15 ft. (2 squares), burrow 10 ft. (2 squares), climb 10 ft.
*Armor Class:* 17 (+2 size, +5 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 17
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +1/-10
*Attack:* Claw -1 melee (1d4)
*Full Attack:* Claw -1 melee (1d4)
*Space/Reach:* 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Sticky tongue
*Special Qualities:* Defensive ball, low-light vision, noxious spray, scent
*Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 7, Dex 11, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 12
*Skills:* Climb +4*, Listen +2, Survival +3
*Feats:* Weapon Finesse (claw), Weapon Focus (claw) *
Environment:* Warm forests, hills, & plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or family (3-5)
*Challenge Rating:* 1
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 3-4 HD (Tiny), 5-7 HD (Small)
*Level Adjustment:* -

_This tiny creature has a thick body and long broad tail, with a pointed snout and small beady eyes. Its body is covered with tough, keratinous scales which lay flat against its body while walking, although its legs and tail are not protected by these. Its long front claws bend under its forelimbs as it walks, and seems to be quite adept with them. Its long sticky tongue darts out to snag up some insects from a nearby insect mound that it has torn apart with its claws._

Content - feeds on insects and plants

*Combat*
Defensive Ball (Ex) - willingly become prone, lose Dex bonus to AC, gain +4 misc to AC, as stegosaurus - also has sharpness so light/natural weapon attacks take damage unless Ref save

Noxious Spray (Ex) - as a skunk, clings to sprayed creatures

Sticky Tongue (Ex) - gives 1 ft. reach, no dmg attack, bonus to grapple checks, sticky saliva

Skills & Feats: Eomanis receive a +4 to climb checks, as well as the racial bonus feat, Weapon Focus (claw)

*Discussion:*
Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible





*Adding the "Dire Template":*
Dire Pangolin (Dire, Medium - 4 ft. 4 in.)
8HD, advance 9-12HD (Med) 13-18HD (Large)
+7 natural AC?
SA - add Constrict, Improved Grab, Rend
SQ - add Tremorsense
Claw attacks +6 melee 1d6 (same Weapon focus racial bonus feat)
fully covered in body plating on all vulnerable areas, including tail and legs
Train for riding by small riders


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Aug 28, 2009)

Yeah, I think you should start a thread here for the dinopriminals. The best place for it would be in the Homebrews forum, and you/we could move the existing dinopriminals over there.

Also I think that the eomanis' scales shouldn't do any more than 1d3 damage to an attacking foe, and they shouldn't damage weapons. If we're making a small animal, it shouldn't be really complicated.


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## Cleon (Aug 29, 2009)

I'm afraid there's a fair few stat errors in these, in order:

The Pangolin:
AC has +1 Dex bonus, not the +2 from Dex 14.
Claw attack should be +3 (+0 BAB, +2 Weapon Finesse, +1 for size Small).
Saves should be Fort +5 (+2 HD, +3 Con), Ref +4 (+2 HD, +2 Dex), Will +2 (+0 HD, +2 Wis)
Skills - it only seems to have 1 skill point, when it should have 4, and its Hide does not include the +4 for size Small. Assuming it puts 1 skill point in each skill, it would have Escape Artist +3, Hide +11, Listen +7, Spot +7

The Eomanis
Claw attack should be +4 (+1 BAB, +0 Weapon Finesse, +1 Weapon Focus, +2 for size Tiny) and should do 1d4-2 damage (Strength penalty from Str 7)
Saves should be Fort +5 (+3 HD, +2 Con), Ref +3 (+3 HD, +0 Dex), Will +0 (+0 HD, +0 Wis)
Skills - A creature with a Climb speed normally gets a +8 racial bonus to climb, not +4, so its Climb should be +6 (+8 racial, -2 Str).

As far as the design goes, isn't natural armour +6 a bit high for the Pangolin, and 2 Hit Dice seems rather a lot for a Tiny animal.

Oh, and for the "Dire Pangolin" I'd think it would work better as a Large monster, since it has 8 hit dice.


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## xidoraven (Aug 29, 2009)

InsanePsychoRabbit said:


> Yeah, I think you should start a thread here for the dinopriminals. The best place for it would be in the Homebrews forum, and you/we could move the existing dinopriminals over there.
> 
> Also I think that the eomanis' scales shouldn't do any more than 1d3 damage to an attacking foe, and they shouldn't damage weapons. If we're making a small animal, it shouldn't be really complicated.




New Thread in Homebrews

I leave Eomanis up to the experts.  For a dire Eomanis, I would prefer a medium-sized basis, so that small and tiny humanoids could be riding it on custom saddles.    Just imagine, and smile.


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## Cleon (Aug 30, 2009)

InsanePsychoRabbit said:


> Yeah, I think you should start a thread here for the dinopriminals. The best place for it would be in the Homebrews forum, and you/we could move the existing dinopriminals over there.
> 
> Also I think that the eomanis' scales shouldn't do any more than 1d3 damage to an attacking foe, and they shouldn't damage weapons. If we're making a small animal, it shouldn't be really complicated.




Most artificial weapons have hardness 5-10, so 1d3 damage would never damage them. Natural weapons rarely have hardness, of course, so unless the attacker has DR they risk being hurt when attacking a pangolin.

Hmm, that gives me an idea, perhaps the pangolins could have a bit of universal Damage Resistance, say DR 2/- increased to 5/- when they roll in a ball, for their armoured scales? I don't much care for them being very hard to hit (high AC from high natural armour), but they need something to make them a "tough nut to crack".

Oh, and while we're on the subject of DR, pangolins have claws so tough they can tear through termite mounds, some of which have a consistency rivaling concrete, so shouldn't they have some kind of "iron-hard claws" special attack that lets their claws defeat hardnesses up to 5 or 8 or so?


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## xidoraven (Aug 30, 2009)

Actually, that might make more sense than having a bulky natural AC.  I still think it should affect the critical threat, if either to lessening the threat range, doing 1-1/2 damage, etc.

I and think a line should be made here to separate Eomanis (only partially scaled-covered, lacking tail and legs scales) and modern pangolins, which are all fully-scaled and unlike Eomanis' most closely related modern cousin, Eurotamandua - which has no scales at all.

Considering this point, I would raise its natural DR by no more than 2, and probably even 1, with a +3 to +5 raise of universal DR by defensive ball if DR is chosen over natural AC bonus.

Also, I am nominating a review/revision of Potamotherium for the next-up creature.     I really do have a whole list.  There were a lot of prehistoric gems drafted out there in the vast, but never refined - I myself, being one of those simply-can't-finish authors, tried my hand at altering an otter from Stormwrack with a Dire template outfitting....


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## Cleon (Sep 1, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> Actually, that might make more sense than having a bulky natural AC.  I still think it should affect the critical threat, if either to lessening the threat range, doing 1-1/2 damage, etc.
> 
> I and think a line should be made here to separate Eomanis (only partially scaled-covered, lacking tail and legs scales) and modern pangolins, which are all fully-scaled and unlike Eomanis' most closely related modern cousin, Eurotamandua - which has no scales at all.




Well after doing a bit of Googling around there's some opinion that _Eurotamandua_ is not actually a pangolin, but either a Xenarthran or Afredentata, but I'm not qualified to judge on this.

Eomanis looks more like a tree pangolin to me, being small & presumably fairly light (since it is not as heavily scaled). Maybe that should be what we should be modelling?

As for _Potamotherium_. AD&D had giant otters, and there's probably a 3E conversion of them floating around here somewhere. Their stats would probably serve.

I'm inclined to stat up a ground pangolin from scratch, then down-size it to a tree pangolin and use the latter (maybe slightly modified) for _Eomanis_, and then do a "Dire Pangolin".


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2009)

Cleon said:


> As for _Potamotherium_. AD&D had giant otters, and there's probably a 3E conversion of them floating around here somewhere. Their stats would probably serve.




For some reason I read that as "Potatotherium", which led me down a long, dark road pondering Dire Tubers...


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## freyar (Sep 1, 2009)

I'll be happy to stat up whatever anyone tells me to.  I'm just confused about which critter we're thinking of.


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## Cleon (Sep 3, 2009)

Cleon said:


> I'm inclined to stat up a ground pangolin from scratch, then down-size it to a tree pangolin and use the latter (maybe slightly modified) for _Eomanis_, and then do a "Dire Pangolin".




Okay, I've finished my take on the pangolin and its variants. I've got to start work, so I'll post them this evening.


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## Cleon (Sep 3, 2009)

*Pangolin*

*Pangolin*
Small Animal
*Hit Dice:* 1d8+5 (9 hp)
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares), burrow 5 ft. (earth only)
*Armour Class:* 15 (+1 size, +1 Dex, +3 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/–5 [_+7 to resist unrolling_]
*Attack:* Claw +3 melee (1d4-1) or tail-slap +3 melee (1d4-1)
*Full **Attack:* 2 claws +3 melee (1d4-1) or tail-slap +3 melee (1d4-1)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Rock-hard claws, shivering scales, stink-spray
*Special Qualities:* Armoured ball, DR 2/–, low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 8, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6
*Skills:* Climb +8, Hide +7, Listen +5, Survival +2* [_+6 tracking by scent_], Swim +5
*Feats:* Athletic, Track(B), Toughness(B), Weapon Finesse(B)
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary or Family (2-8)
*Challenge Rating:* 1/2
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always Neutral
*Advancement:* 2 HD (Medium)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_A low-slung animal with broad scales which give it a texture resembling a scaly artichoke. These scales cover its entire body, including its four short yet sturdy legs and long, flat tail. Its forelegs are armed with great curved claws_ _, which fold onto its palms when it walks. __ The animal's head has small eyes and a tapering snout  ending in a ridiculously small mouth._

A pangolin is an insectivore with similar habits to an ant-eater. These nocturnal creatures use their keen sense of smell to find ant and termite's nests which they break open with their powerful foreclaws, then lick the insects up with their foot-long sticky tongues.
 
These quadrupeds walk upon the soles of their hindfeet and the knuckles of their forefeet, with their foreclaws folded away on their palms to prevent them being damaged. Pangolins can rear up onto their hind-legs to claw tall objects or look around, propping themselves up with their broad tails.

 Despite their ungainly appearance, pangolins are good climbers. These stats represent a typical ground pangolin. A smaller variety, the tree pangolin, is arboreal (see below).

A pangolin can burrow through materials with hardness of 5 or less, such as earth and termite mounds.

A typical pangolin is roughly 3 feet long, about half of which is tail, and weighs around 30 pounds. The largest species of pangolin, the giant pangolin _Manis gigantea_, can reach Medium size, growing up to 6' long and 70 pounds.

*Combat
*Pangolins are not aggressive animals. If attacked or threatened, their preferred defence it to roll into an armoured ball, although they usually try to avoid threats first – usually by hiding, burrowing or climbing a tree, since they are too slow to flee. When sorely pressed they often defend themselves with a spray of stinking musk. They fight only as a last resort, lashing out with their large claws and serrated tails.

*Armoured Ball (Ex):* A pangolin can roll into a tight ball as a move action. A rolled-up pangolin loses its dexterity modifier to AC and can take no action apart from Shivering Scales (see below), but gains a +3 circumstance bonus to its Natural Armour, Damage Reduction and the DC of its Shivering Scales special attack, thus increasing its defences to DC15 Shivering Scales, AC17 (touch 11, flat-footed 17) and DR 5/–.

A pangolin in an armoured ball is immune to critical attacks. It can unroll into a standing position with a standard action.

An attacker can forcibly unroll a pangolin with a grapple check, but the pangolin receives a +12 racial bonus on its grapple check to resist, and the attacker must continue making grapple checks each round or the pangolin can roll itself back up.

*Rock-Hard Claws (Ex):* A pangolin's claw attacks ignore hardness of up to 5, allowing them to easily claw through termite mounds and wood to find insects.

*Shivering Scales (Ex):* A pangolin can use a standard action to vibrate its scales to try cutting attackers with their sharp edges. Any opponent that grapples the pangolin or hits it with a natural weapon attack before the pangolin's next turn must make a Reflex save against a DC12 or take 1d3 damage plus half the _attacker's_ Strength bonus (maximum +5). If the pangolin is rolled into an Armoured Ball, the DC is 15. The save DC is Constitution-based.

_Example:_ a leopard hits a rolled-up pangolin with its 1d6+3 damage bite attack. If it fails the DC15 Reflex save it takes 1d3+1 damage. The pangolin only takes 1d6-2 damage, due to its Armoured Ball Damage Reduction of 5.

*Stink-Spray (Ex):* Once an hour, a pangolin can spray a 10 foot line of reeking musk. Any living creature it touches must succeed on a DC 12 Fortitude save or be sickened for 1d6+4 rounds. A _delay poison_ or _neutralize poison_ spell removes the effect from a sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Skills*
Pangolins have a +2 racial bonus on Hide and Listen checks, plus a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent. A pangolin has a +4 racial bonus to Climb and Swim checks, and can use either its Dexterity or its Strength bonus on Climb checks.


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## Cleon (Sep 3, 2009)

*Tree Pangolin*

*Pangolin, Tree*
Tiny Animal
*Hit Dice:* ½d8+2 (4 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares), climb 10 ft.
*Armour Class:* 16 (+2 size, +2 Dex, +2 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/–10 [_+5 to resist unrolling_]
*Attack:* Claws +4 melee (1d4-2)
*Full **Attack:* Claws +4 melee (1d4-2)
*Space/Reach:* 2½ ft./0 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Rock-hard claws, shivering scales, stink-spray
*Special Qualities:* Armoured ball, DR 1/–, low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 6, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6
*Skills:* Climb +12, Hide +12, Listen +3, Survival +2* [_+6 tracking by scent_], Swim +5
*Feats:* Athletic, Track(B), Weapon Finesse(B)
*Environment:* Warm forests
*Organization:* Solitary or Family (2-8)
*Challenge Rating:* 1/4
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always Neutral
*Advancement:* —
*Level Adjustment:* —

_A slim, cat-sized animal entirely covered with horny scales that give it the appearance of a stretched-out pine -cone. It has a long flat tail and four short but sturdy legs, the forelegs end in large curved claws. The animal's head is almost all elongated, tapering snout, which ends in a tiny mouth._

A tree pangolin is an arboreal, nocturnal insectivore. These nocturnal creatures use their keen sense of smell to find insects on or within trees, they often use their powerful claws to strip of bark or break open dead wood to reach their food. A tree pangolin has a long sticky tongue for lapping up insects.
 
Like regular pangolins (q.v.), tree pangolins can prop themselves up on their hind legs with their tails and knuckle-walk on the ground, although they would much rather climb trees. They have prehensile tails strong enough for them to hang by while bearing the weight of another creature their size, while their claws make great climbing-hooks and can close on narrow branches with a vice-like grip – all handy adaptations for climbing.

 An average tree pangolin is only 18 inches long, about half of which is tail, and weighs about 4 pounds.

*Combat*
Tree Pangolins only fight if cornered, slashing with their long claws. They would much rather climb away from threats, or roll into an armoured ball. If sore pressed a tree pangolin can emit a spray of noxious fluid whose reek is enough to repel most of its natural predators.

*Armoured Ball (Ex):* A tree pangolin can roll into a tight ball as a move action. A rolled-up tree pangolin loses its dexterity modifier to AC and can take no action apart from Shivering Scales (see below), but gains a +2 circumstance bonus to its Natural Armour Damage Reduction and the DC of its Shivering Scales special attack, thus changing its defences to DC14 Shivering Scales, AC16 (touch 12, flat-footed 16) and DR 3/–. The tree pangolin can unroll itself into an upright position with a standard action.

Whenever a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on a tree pangolin rolled into an Armoured Ball, there is a 25% chance that the special attack is negated and its damage is rolled normally.

 An attacker can forcibly unroll a pangolin with a grapple check, but the tree pangolin receives a +15 racial bonus on its grapple check to resist, and the attacker must continue making grapple checks each round or the pangolin can roll itself back up.

*Rock-Hard Claws (Ex):* A tree pangolin's claws attack ignores hardness of up to 5, allowing them to easily claw through bark and wood to find insects.

*Shivering Scales (Ex):* A tree pangolin can use a standard action to vibrate its scales to try cutting attackers with their sharp edges. Any opponent that grapples the pangolin or hits it with a natural weapon attack before the pangolin's next turn must make a Reflex save against a DC12 or take 1d3 damage plus half the _attacker's_ Strength bonus (maximum +3). If the pangolin is rolled into an Armoured Ball, the DC is 15. The save DC is Constitution-based.

_Example:_ a leopard hits a rolled-up tree pangolin with its 1d6+3 damage bite attack. If it fails the DC15 Reflex save it takes 1d3+1 damage. The pangolin only takes 1d6 damage, due to its Armoured Ball Damage Reduction of 3.

*Stink-Spray (Ex):* Once an hour, a pangolin can spray a 10 foot line of reeking musk. Any living creature it touches must succeed on a DC 12 Fortitude save or be sickened for 1d6+4 rounds. A _delay poison_ or _neutralize poison_ spell removes the effect from a sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Skills
*Pangolins have a +2 racial bonus on Hide and Listen checks, a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks, plus an +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent. A tree pangolin has a +8 racial bonus to Climb and can use either its Dexterity or its Strength bonus on Climb checks, it can always opt to take 10 on Climb checks, even when rushed or threatened.

*Tree Pangolin Familiars*
A tree pangolin can be used as a familiar. Such tree pangolins lose their Stink-Spray special attack (unless acquired with the Improved Familiar feat as detailed below) and give their master +3 hit points, together with a taste for ants.

A spellcaster of Neutral alignment of at least 5th level can use the Improved Familiar feat to acquire a tree pangolin familiar that retains its Stink-Spray attack which also gifts its master with a +1 natural armour bonus whenever it is within arm's reach. 

*Pangolin, Eomanis*
_Eomanis_ is a prehistoric animal, probably an early ancestor of the pangolins. It resembles a tree pangolin in size and shape, except its scaly armour is less developed, and does not properly cover its limbs and underbelly.

Use the same stats as a pangolin, except Eomanis only has a +1 natural armour bonus and a +2 cap on its Shivering Scales damage bonus, and when it rolls in an Armoured Ball the animal only gains a +1 circumstance bonus to its Damage Reduction and Shivering Scales, changing its defences to:

*Armour Class:* AC 15 (+2 size, +2 Dex, +1 natural), touch
*Armoured Ball:* DC13 Shivering Scales, AC15 (touch 12, flat-footed 15) and DR 2/–.
*Shivering Scales:* DC12, maximum damage 1d3+2.


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## Cleon (Sep 3, 2009)

*Dire Pangolin*

*Pangolin, Dire*
Medium Animal (Dire)
*Hit Dice:* 3d8+19 (32 hp)
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares), burrow 5 ft.
*Armour Class:* 16 (+1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 15
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +2/+5 [_+15 to resist unrolling, –5 with sticky tongue sweep_]
*Attack:* Claw +5 melee (1d6+3) or tail-slap +5 melee (1d6+4) or tongue +5 melee touch (special)
*Full **Attack:* 2 claws +5 melee (1d6+3) or tail-slap +5 melee (1d6+4) or tongue +5 melee touch (special)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Rock-hard claws, shivering scales, sticky tongue, stink-spray, swallow whole
*Special Qualities:* Armoured ball, DR 3/–, fortification, low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +4
*Abilities:* Str 16, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 10
*Skills:* Climb +9, Hide +3, Listen +6, Survival +2* (_+6 tracking by scent_), Spot +4, Swim +9
*Feats:* Athletic, Endurance, Toughness(B), Track(B)
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary or Family (2-8)
*Challenge Rating:* 2
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always Neutral
*Advancement:* 4 HD (Medium); 5-6 HD (Large)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_A low-slung beast at least as long as a man is tall, entirely covered with artichoke-like scales. It has four sturdy legs and a long flat tail_ _, with forepaws equipped with massive claws that fold onto its palms when it walks. __ The animal's head is mostly an elongated conical muzzle, tipped with a rather comically small mouth._

A dire pangolin is a bigger, tougher version of a ground pangolin. These animals are more catholic in their diet than regular pangolins, being omnivores that will also eat grains, berries and small vertebrates as well as a pangolin's traditional diet of social insects. 

Like regular pangolins (q.v.), dire pangolins are quadrupeds that fold their great, curved foreclaws into their palms to walk upon their knuckles and the soles of their hind feet. Due to their great weight, they have developed heavily callused, hoof-like knuckles on their forepaws. They can also rear onto their hind legs, propping themselves up with their flat tails.

Despite appearing massive and clumsy, dire pangolins are good climbers and are sometimes seen climbing scree slopes and trees looking for nests of insects. Dire pangolins do not have poor eyesight like normal pangolins.

A dire pangolin can burrow through materials with hardness of 7 or less, such as earth, termite mounds or even soft stone.

A typical dire pangolin is 7 feet long, about half of which is tail, and weighs around 300 pounds. The largest specimens can reach 15 feet and 2500 pounds.

*Combat
*Dire pangolins are normally placid creatures, but can defend themselves vigorously if attacked with their formidable claws and long, serrated tail. They have a stinking spray like a skunk's they often use when startled or threatened, but would rather just roll up and ignore attackers, especially minor ones.

*Armoured Ball (Ex):* A dire pangolin can roll into a tight ball as a move action. A rolled-up pangolin loses its dexterity modifier to AC and can take no action apart from Shivering Scales (see below), but gains a +3 circumstance bonus to its Natural Armour and Damage Reduction and the DC of its Shivering Scales special attack, thus increasing its defences to Shivering Scales DC18, AC18 (touch 10, flat-footed 18) and DR 6/–. A Large sized dire pangolin has a +4 circumstance bonus to Natural Armour and Damage Reduction when rolled into a ball.

Whenever a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on a dire pangolin rolled into an Armoured Ball, there is a 50% chance (75% for Large-sized dire pangolins) that the special attack is negated and its damage is rolled normally.

An attacker can forcibly unroll a pangolin with a grapple check, but a dire pangolin receives a +10 racial bonus on its grapple check to resist, and the attacker must continue making grapple checks each round or the pangolin can roll itself back up.

A dire pangolin can unroll from an Armoured Ball into an upright position with a standard action.

 *Fortification (Ex):* Whenever a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on a dire pangolin there is a 25% chance that the special attack is negated and its damage is rolled normally, similar to the effect of armour enchanted with the Light Fortification quality. This chance increases to 50% (75% for Large dire pangolins) when the dire pangolin is curled into an Armoured Ball.

 *Rock-Hard Claws (Ex):* A dire pangolin's claw attacks ignore hardness of up to 7, allowing them to easily claw through termite mounds and wood to find insects.

*Shivering Scales (Ex):* A pangolin can use a standard action to vibrate its scales to try cutting attackers with their sharp edges. Any opponent that grapples the pangolin or hits it with a natural weapon attack before the pangolin's next turn must make a Reflex save against a DC15 or take 1d3 damage plus half the _attacker's_ Strength bonus (maximum +6). If the pangolin is rolled into an Armoured Ball, the DC is 18. The save DC is Constitution-based.

_Example:_ a lion hits a dire pangolin with a 1d4+5 damage claw. If the lion fails a DC15 Reflex save it takes 1d4+2 damage. The pangolin only takes 1d4+2 damage, due to its Damage Reduction of 3. If the dire pangolin was rolled up into an Armoured Ball the DC would be 18, and it would take only 1d4-1 damage due to its DR being increased to 6.

*Sticky Tongue (Ex):* A dire pangolin can sweep a 5 foot square with its sticky tongue. Any Fine sized creature in that square must make a DC15 Reflex save or be stuck to the tongue, they then must beat the dire pangolin in a grapple check or be swallowed the same round (see Swallow Whole, below). A dire pangolin has a –10 circumstance penalty on its Sticky Tongue grapple checks, but suffers no penalty for grappling multiple Fine creatures with its tongue. Affected creatures can make an Attack of Opportunity against the dire pangolin, but if they do they are not entitled to a Reflex save to avoid the tongue. If a dire pangolin use its tongue sweep attack against a swarm of Tiny creatures, it automatically does 1d6+3 damage to the swarm, halved with a DC15 Reflex save.

A dire pangolin can also use its Sticky Tongue as a melee touch attack against a single target, which need not be Fine size. In such a case it does not allow a Reflex save to avoid or provoke an Attack of Opportunity.

The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Stink-Spray (Ex):* Once an hour, a dire pangolin can spray a 15 foot cone of reeking musk. Any living creature it touches must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or be sickened for 1d6+4 rounds. A _delay poison_ or _neutralize poison_ spell removes the effect from a sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Swallow Whole (Ex):* A dire pangolin can try to swallow an opponent of Fine size it is grappling with its tongue by making a successful grapple check with a –10 circumstance penalty; it can attempt to swallow multiple Fine opponents simultaneously at no additional penalty. Once inside, the opponent takes 1d4+3 points of crushing damage plus 2 points of acid damage per round from the dire pangolin’s gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 10 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 12). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Medium sized dire pangolin’s stomach can hold 512 Fine opponents.

*Skills
*Pangolins have a +2 racial bonus on Hide and Listen checks, plus a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent. A dire pangolin has a +4 racial bonus to Climb and Swim checks, and can use either its Dexterity or its Strength bonus on Climb checks.

*Training A Dire Pangolin*
A dire pangolin can be trained to take a rider. Some gnome communities are especially fond of them as mounts. A dire pangolin makes an excellent steed; they have incredible toughness and endurance and can traverse very rugged terrain with their skill at climbing and swimming. Most domesticated dire pangolins have their scent-glands surgically removed (requiring a DC18 Heal check), since they still have a tendency to spray stink-juice or try to curl into a ball when startled or threatened. These traits make most dire pangolin steeds too skittish to ride into battle, although battle-hardened dire pangolins, many of which are animal companions or paladin's mounts, can make excellent combat mounts.

Domesticated dire pangolins are difficult to feed when they are in areas without abundant large insect nests. They can be fed on minced fresh meat or "ant grits" – a mixture of wild grains soaked in animal fat, finely chopped pemmican and dried insects, flavoured with vinegar. (Ant grits is edible to humanoids, but is _definitely_ an acquired taste.)

Riding a dire pangolin requires an exotic saddle. A dire pangolin wearing a saddle can not use its Armoured Ball or Shivering Scales abilities, due to the saddle restricting their back muscles. This does not prevent a panicked dire pangolin _trying_ to curl up when saddled, which usually results in the pangolin lying half-curled on its side with its rider on the ground beside it.

All dire pangolins are born with the instincts of a wild animal. Even those born in captivity have to be raised from infancy to become domesticated animals, requiring a DC18 Handle Animal check. These animals are surprisingly intelligent, and can learn any trick in the Handle Animal rules (q.v.).

Training a dire pangolin for combat is difficult, requiring six weeks of work and a DC 25 Handle Animal check. A dire pangolin can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless they succeed on a Ride check.

Dire pangolin young are worth 100 gp per head and a domesticated adult is worth 500 gp, or 1000 gp for a Large dire pangolin. A combat trained riding pangolin is worth twice as much. Dire pangolins mature at the same rate as horses. Professional trainers charge 200 gp to rear or train a dire pangolin.

*Carrying Capacity*
A light load for a dire pangolin is up to 114 pounds; a medium load, 115-229 pounds; and a heavy load, 230-345 pounds.

*Advanced Dire Pangolins*
A dire pangolin advanced to Large size follows the normal Advancement rules, except it has a Damage Reduction of 4 (DR 8/– when curled into a ball). This gives it the following stats:

*Giant Dire Pangolin*
Large Animal (Dire)
*Hit Dice:* 5d8+33 (60 hp)
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares), burrow 5 ft.
*Armour Class:* 16 (-1 size, +7 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 16
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +3/+14 [_+24 to resist unrolling, +4 with sticky tongue sweep_]
*Attack:* Claw +9 melee (1d8+7) or tail-slap +9 melee (1d8+10) or tongue +9 melee touch (special)
*Full **Attack:* 2 claws +9 melee (1d8+7) or tail-slap +9 melee (1d8+10) or tongue +9 melee touch (special)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Rock-hard claws, shivering scales, sticky tongue, stink-spray, swallow whole
*Special Qualities:* Armoured ball, DR 4/–, fortification, low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +4
*Abilities:* Str 24, Dex 11, Con 23, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 10
*Skills:* Climb +13, Hide +1, Listen +6, Survival +2* (_+6 tracking by scent_), Spot +4, Swim +13
*Feats:* Athletic, Endurance, Toughness(B), Track(B)
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary or Family (2-8)
*Challenge Rating:* 4
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always Neutral
*Advancement:* 6 HD (Large)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Combat*
 
*Armoured Ball (Ex):* While curled-up a giant dire pangolin has 75% fortification against critical hits and sneak attacks, DC21 Sharp Scales, AC20 (touch 10, flat-footed 20) and DR 8/–.

*Fortification (Ex):* Gives 25% resistance to critical hits and sneak attacks, increases to 75% when in Armoured Ball.

*Rock-Hard Claws (Ex):* A dire pangolin's claw attacks ignore hardness of up to 7, allowing them to easily claw through termite mounds and wood to find insects.

* Shivering Scales (Ex):* Opponents hitting with natural attacks take 1d4 damage plus half the _attacker's_ Strength bonus (maximum +8) if they fail a DC18 Reflex save (DC21 when in Armoured Ball). The save DC is Constitution-based.
*
Sticky Tongue (Ex):* Affects all fine sized creatures within a 5 foot square that fail a DC15 Reflex save or a single creature hit by a melee touch attack. Any Fine sized creature struck must win a grapple check (–10 circumstance penalty to the pangolin) or be swallowed the same round (see Swallow Whole, below). The dire pangolin has no penalty for grappling multiple Fine creatures with its tongue. Against a Swarm, a sticky tongue attack does 1d8+7 damage, halved with a DC15 Reflex save. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Stink-Spray (Ex):* Once an hour, 15 foot cone, all living creatures within must make DC18 Fortitude saves or be sickened for 1d6+4 rounds. A _delay poison_ or _neutralize poison_ spell removes the effect. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Swallow Whole (Ex):* Only via Sticky Tongue attack on Fine opponents. Swallowed opponent takes 1d6+7 points of crushing damage plus 2 points of acid damage per round from the dire pangolin’s gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 10 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 13). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Large dire pangolin’s stomach can hold 2048 Fine opponents.

*Carrying Capacity*
A light load for a Large dire pangolin is up to 349 pounds; a medium load, 350-699 pounds; and a heavy load, 700-1050 pounds.


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## Cleon (Sep 3, 2009)

*The Castle Eater, Kaiju Pangolin*

*Pangolin, Kaiju (The Castle-Eater)*
Colossal Magical Beast
*Hit Dice:* 33d10+399 (580 hp)
*Initiative:* +4
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares), burrow 30 ft. [_60 ft. with four legged drive_]
*Armor Class:* 42 (–8 size, +40 natural), touch 2, flat-footed 42
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +33/+72 [_+84 to resist unrolling, +62 with multiple tongue grapples, +52 with tongue-sweep_]
*Attack:* Claw +44 melee (5d6+19) or tongue-flick +44 melee touch (2d8+9 plus 10d6 acid and special grapple) or tail-slap +44 melee (5d8+28) or thrown rock +25 ranged (5d8+28)
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +44 melee (5d6+19) and tongue-flick +39 melee touch (2d8+9 plus 10d6 acid and special grapple) and tail-slap +39 melee (5d8+28); or thrown rock +25 ranged (5d8+28)
*Space/Reach:* 30 ft./30 ft. (60 ft. with tail-slap, 90 ft. with tongue-flick)
*Special Attacks:* Acid saliva, adamantine claws & scales, constrict 2d8+9 plus 10d6 acid (tongue) or 5d8+28 (tail), rock throwing, rolling devastation, shivering scales, stink-spray, tail sweep, tongue-flick, tongue master, tongue-sweep
*Special Qualities:* Armoured ball, DR 20/–, dire beast, fast healing 15, fortification, four-legged drive, resist energy 20, scent, spell resistance 33, tremorsense 60 ft., superior low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +30, Ref +24, Will +27
*Abilities:* Str 48, Dex 11, Con 35, Int 6, Wis 17, Cha 10
*Skills:* Climb +23, Hide –14, Jump +49 [_+62 with a four-legged run-up_], Listen +15, Spot +9, Survival +3* [_+9 tracking by scent_], Swim +23
*Feats:* Blind Fight, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Toughness(B), Track(B) 
*Epic Feats: *Dire Charge, Epic Reflexes, Epic Will, Epic Skill Focus (Jump)
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 20
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always Neutral
*Advancement:* 34-66 HD (Colossal)
*Level Adjustment:*  —
 
_Scales the size and shape of a titan's kite shield plate this living behemoth, which towers higher than many temple roofs. Its body and limbs are of roughly human proportion, but the head that stands fifteen times a tall man's height above the ground is a long, conical affair ending in a comparatively miniscule mouth, and a tail a hundred feet long drags along the ground behind it. The creature's hands sport tremendous claws, the biggest of which must be eight feet long_ _, which it clicks against the palms of its forepaws to display callused, hoof-like knuckles._

The Castle-Eater appears to be some kind of pangolin, rendered supernaturally large and dangerous by unknown magic. Its origins are debatable, some say it hails from another world, and was cast into this one by a cabal of Formian conjurers to stop it preying upon their own hive-cities, others it was a humble anteater that happened to be at the epicentre of an Epic spell which misfired. Regardless of the truth, while this terrifying monster prefers to feed off the nests of giant ants and giant termites, when it cannot find such it happily tears open human settlements and devours the occupants; sweeping up men, women, children and livestock alike with its 90 foot long tongue. It has a particular fondness for attacking fortresses, which gave rise to its name.
 
The Castle-Eater prefers to walk on its hind legs to free its forelimbs limbs for battle, but can drop to all fours to move across the ground more quickly - or tunnel through it! Like its miniscule cousins, this _Kaiju_ pangolin folds its foreclaws into its palms when on all fours, bearing its weight on its knuckles and hind feet.

 The Castle-Eater stands roughly 90 feet tall in its hind legs and weighs about 3000 tons. When it drops to all fours it is 200 feet long, half of which is tail.

*Combat*
Castle-Eater has lost all trace of a normal pangolin's placid nature, and aggressively respond to attacks. It will still roll up when threatened, but only to plot its next move or roll across the field of combat and use its body as a living wrecking ball.

The Castle-Eater demonstrates an unnatural intelligence, and has learnt a number of crude stratagems for dealing with spell-casting opponents such as picking them off with a tongue-flick or approaching them by burrowing to avoid their spells. Being able to leap 60 feet into the air with little effort, Castle-Eater can easily reach a height of 240 feet above the ground with its tongue, a fact that several wizards who thought they were flying "safely above the monster's reach" discovered too late.

Castle-Eater prefers to use its tongue against opponents of Large size or less, who are small enough for it to swallow. The Castle-Eater's tongue attacks use special rules - see Tongue-Flick, Tongue Mastery and Tongue-Sweep for details. Opponents too big to swallow whole are torn into bite-sized pieces with its claws after being slain.

Note that the Castle-Eater's tail has double the reach of a normal creature of its size, and its tail-slap attacks always apply 1½ times its damage bonus from strength. The Castle-Eater can constrict with its tail but its tail does *not* have Improved Grab, so it must succeed at a regular grapple attempt (without provoking an Attack of Opportunity, since it has the Improved Grapple feat) before caudal constriction can begin.

*Acid Saliva (Su):* The Castle-Eater's saliva dissolves animal tissue on contact, whether flesh, bone or hide. Any object or creature swallowed by the Castle-Eater, grappled by its tongue or struck by its tongue-flick or Tongue-Sweep attack is affected.

The Castle-Eater can also spit its acid saliva as a standard action, hitting a 20 foot radius spread up to 600 feet away for 20d6 acid damage (Reflex save DC38 for half damage). The save DC is Constitution-based.

 *Adamantine Claws & Scales (Ex):* The Castle-Eater's claw attacks and Shivering Scales special attack ignore hardness of up to 20, allowing it to tear through stone and steel like loose soil.

*Armoured Ball (Ex):* The Castle-Eater can roll into a tight ball as a move action. While rolled-up it loses its dexterity bonus to AC and can take no action apart from standard move actions, Rolling Devastation and Shivering Scales (see below). While rolled up it gains a +10 circumstance bonus to its Natural Armour, a +20 circumstance bonus to Damage Reduction, a +30 circumstance bonus to Resist Energy, and a +5 circumstance bonus to the DC of its Shivering Scales special attack, thus increasing its defences to Resist Energy 50, Shivering Scales DC43, AC52 (touch 2, flat-footed 52) and DR 40/–.

While the Castle-Eater is in an armoured ball it is immune to critical attacks. It can unroll into a bipedal or quadrupedal standing position with a move action.

An opponent can attack the tongue with a sunder attempt as if they were  weapon. An attacker can forcibly unroll the Castle-Eater with a grapple check, but the Castle-Eater receives a +12 racial bonus on its grapple check to resist, and the attacker must continue making grapple checks each round or the Castle-Eater can roll itself back up.

*Constrict (Ex):* With a successful grapple check, the Castle-Eater can constrict with its tail for 5d8+28 damage or with its tongue for 2d8+9 damage plus 10d6 acid.

*Dire Beast (Ex):* Despite being of the magical beast type, Castle-Eater is considered to have the Dire subtype. This grants it all Good saving throws.

*Fortification (Ex):* Whenever a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the Castle-Eater there is a 75% chance that the special attack is negated and its damage is rolled normally, similar to the effect of armour enchanted with the Moderate Fortification quality. This chance increases to 100% when the _kaiju_ pangolin is curled into an Armoured Ball.

 *Four-Legged Drive (Ex):* The Castle-Eater can drop from a bipedal stance to a quadrupedal stance with a swift action, or regain a bipedal stance as a move action. Neither provokes an attack of opportunity. When in quadrupedal mode, the Castle-Eater can not use its claw attacks, but its land speed increases to 60 feet.

*Resist Energy (Su):* The Castle-Eater has energy resistance 20 against all forms of energy, this energy resistance increases to 50 when it is rolled into an Armoured Ball.

*Rock-Throwing (Ex):* The Castle-Eater has learned how to throw Huge boulders. It can tear a suitable chunk or stone out of the very bedrock with a swift action, so is seldom without ammunition. The range increment for its thrown rocks is 200 feet. It uses both hands when throwing a rock.

*Rolling Devastation (Ex):* While curled into an Armoured Ball, Castle-Eater can roll across the ground, crushing smaller every opponents it hits. Rolling devastation is a full-round action, during which time the Castle-Eater can move up to 120 feet. This is resolved like a Trample attack (q.v.) against opponents up to Huge size, doing 5d8+28 damage, halved with DC45 Reflex save. If the Castle-Eater rolls into opponents that are Gargantuan or larger in size, Rolling Devastation is resolves as if it was making an overrun attack with the Improved Overrun feat. The save DC is Strength-based.

*Shivering Scales (Ex):* The Castle-Eater can use a move action to vibrate its scales at supersonic speeds in an attempt to slice attackers with their sharp edges. Any opponent that grapples the pangolin or hits it with an attack before the Castle-Eater's next turn must make a Reflex save against a DC38 or take either 3d6+9 damage or 3d6 damage plus the Strength bonus_ the opponent _applied to their attack (maximum +40), whichever is greater. If the Castle-Eater is rolled into an Armoured Ball, the DC is 43. The attacker takes the damage unless they used a weapon, in which case the weapon takes the damage instead. Remember Shivering Scales ignores hardness less than 20, so it can slice through steel like butter. The save DC is Constitution-based.

_Example:_ a sirrush hits a rolled-up Castle-Eater using Shivering Scales with its 2d6+16 damage claw attack. If the sirrush fails a DC43 Reflex save it takes 3d6+16 damage. The Castle-Eater only takes 2d6-24 damage (i.e. nothing), due to its Damage Reduction of 40. If the Castle-Eater was unrolled the DC would be 38, and it would have taken 3d6-4 damage due to its DR only being 20.

*Stink-Spray (Ex):* Once an hour, the castle-Eater can spray a 60 foot cone of reeking musk. Any living creature it touches must succeed on a DC 38 Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1d6+4 rounds. A _delay poison_ or _neutralize poison_ spell removes the effect from a nauseated creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Superior Low-Light Vision (Ex):* The Castle-Eater sees five times as far as a human in shadowy conditions.

*Swallow Whole (Ex):* The Castle-Eater can try to swallow an opponent of up to Large size it is grappling with its tongue by making a successful grapple check with a –10 circumstance penalty; it can attempt to swallow multiple opponents simultaneously at no additional penalty. Once inside, the opponent takes 3d8+19 points of crushing damage plus 16 points of acid damage per round from the Castle-Eater's gizzard and is affected by the Castle-Eater's Spell-Resisting Saliva every round on the Castle-Eater's initiative. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 50 points of damage to the gizzard (AC30, but no DR). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. The Castle-Eater's gizzard can hold 64 Large, 256 Medium, 1024 Small and many thousand smaller opponents.

*Tail Sweep (Ex):* The Castle-Eater can also make a tail sweep attack as a standard action. The sweep affects a half-circle with a radius of 60 feet, extending from an intersection on the edge of the Castle-Eater's space in any direction. The tail-sweep automatically inflicts 4d6+19 damage to all creatures within the affected area that are sized Huge or less, halved if they make a DC 45 Reflex save. The save DC is Strength-based.

*Tongue-Flick (Ex):* The Castle-Eater's tongue has a 90 foot reach and attacks as a melee touch attack doing 10d6 damage. The Castle-Eater can automatically attempt to grapple any creature of Huge size or less that is hit by the tongue-flick attack if it can succeed at a grapple check. The tongue-flick can also make trip and disarm attacks as well as regular grapple attacks against opponents that are Gargantuan or larger.

*Tongue Master (Ex):* The Castle-Eater can grapple multiple opponents simultaneously with its tongue at only a –10 penalty, instead of the normal –20, so long as none of them are more than Huge in size. Its tongue can simultaneously grapple a maximum of 2 Huge opponents, 4 Large opponents, 16 Medium Opponents, 32 Small Opponents, 128 Tiny opponents or 512 Diminutive or smaller opponents.

An opponent can attack the Castle-Eater's tongue as if it were a weapon when it makes grappling or Tongue-Sweep attacks. The Castle-Eater's tongue is amazingly tough and elastic, it has the same DR and AC as the rest of the Castle-Eater's body. The tongue can not be severed, but if an attacker manages to do 50 points of damage to the tongue, or 20 points in a single blow, they damage it enough that it flinches, releasing all grappled victims within 10 feet of the point the opponent is attacking. If the sundering attack against the tongue triggers an Attack of Opportunity, the Castle-Eater usually uses its tongue, but may employ a claw attack.

*Tongue-Sweep (Ex):* The castle-Eater can sweep either a 90 foot line or a 40 foot cone with its tongue as a standard action. All creature of Medium size or less in the area must make a DC38 Reflex save or be swept up by the tongue, taking 5d6 acid damage. They must beat the Castle-Eater in a grapple check or be swallowed at the end of the round (see Swallow Whole, above). The Castle-Eater has a –20 circumstance penalty on this grapple checks, but suffers no penalty for grappling multiple opponents with its tongue. Affected creatures can make an Attack of Opportunity against the Castle-Eater, but if they do they are not entitled to a Reflex save to avoid the tongue. Opponents that make their grapple check to avoid being swallowed at the end of the round are released.

If the castle-Eater use its Tongue-Sweep attack against a mob or swarm of creatures of up to Medium size, it automatically does 15d6+28 damage plus 15d6 acid damage to the swarm or mob, halved with a DC38 Reflex save.

The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Skills
*Castle-Eater has a +2 racial bonus on Hide and Listen checks, plus a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent. It also has a +4 racial bonus to Climb and Swim checks, and can use either its Dexterity or its Strength bonus on Climb checks.


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2009)

Too many pangolins! I've been attacked!


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## Cleon (Sep 3, 2009)

*Design Notes*

*Design Notes*
For the *Pangolin* I started out with the SRD Badger, increased the Con and dropped the Dex, then added various Special Abilities. Stink-Spray is a modification of a Ghast's stench, the other Special Abilities are more or less built from scratch, although I swiped the name Armored Ball from the Wizards' forum version. I dropped Improved Low-Light Vision because pangolin's don't have particularly good eyesight, regular Low-Light Vision seemed more accurate.

The *Tree Pangolin and Eomanis* is just a straightforward reduction of the base pangolin. I reduced the natural armour bonus from Vorpal Tribble's version because a straight +2 NA bonus is a pretty good treat, you'd usually need an 8000 gp magic item, two Armor Skin epic feats or the like to get it.

The *Dire Pangolin *is the base Pangolin with my homebrew dire template applied (must get around to posting that), then tweaked with the addition of a Sticky Tongue attack and a riding/training subentry.

Oh, and I couldn't resist statting up a *Kaiju Pangolin*, the Pholidota's answer to *Anguirus*.*
*
Speaking of the Castle-Eater, does Challenge Rating 20 seem about right? I have no real grasp of what's appropriate at that scale of D&D so I just gave it the same CR as its buddy the Tarrasque (they play cribbage together when not terrorizing humanity).

I was a bit concerned that the _freedom of movement_ spell renders the Castle-Eater's signature "lapping up human beings like insects" attack useless, so I was sorely tempted to give its saliva spell-disrupting properties. Sorely tempted as I was to have it be able to lick up archmages like termites, I reluctantly concluded that was going just a tad too far. The obvious solution is that the Castle-Eater is secretly the puppet of sinister alien gorilla-cockroaches from dimension Y*, bent on world domination, who will secretly cast a targeted _greater dispel magic_ on wizards trying to spoil their plans. (Obviously, said aliens will use potent enchantments to disguise themselves as oriental looking beautiful young ladies and shifty looking men in black polo-neck jumpers.) What frightened me was I did a Colossal version of my Primal Tyrannosaurus that could kill the Castle-Eater *with one bite!*

*Dimension X already being occupied.


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## Cleon (Sep 3, 2009)

freyar said:


> Too many pangolins! I've been attacked!




It's only the big guy at the end you really have to watch, Freyar. One slurrrrpp of that tongue and you're a goner.


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## Cleon (Sep 3, 2009)

Upon reflection, I should put a cap on how much damage its Shivering Scales attack can do. Max bonus equal to its DR seems suitable, I'll add it in.

EDIT: I keep on finding minor formatting and grammatical flaws in the Castle-Eater's write up and just have to fix them. I quite like the big fella, the write-up isn't based on the Dragon magazine _Kaiju _article, I just threw together something that looked fun - using the old school DM's definition of "fun", i.e. "likely to put the wind up the players."


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## xidoraven (Sep 3, 2009)

Shade said:


> For some reason I read that as "Potatotherium", which led me down a long, dark road pondering Dire Tubers...




Oh dear...  I had never considered that, but wow....  Thanks for letting us know.      Try not to let yourself be tempted by those long dark roads into the unknown - it could end up very badly.



freyar said:


> I'll be happy to stat up whatever anyone tells me to.  I'm just confused about which critter we're thinking of.




Looks like Cleon has Pangolin, Tree Pangolin, and Eomanis variations taken care of.  I guess reviewing these is the new order, and then I had nominated a review of my draft of Potamotherium thereafter.



Cleon said:


> Okay, I've finished my take on the pangolin and its variants. I've got to start work, so I'll post them this evening.




These all look really good with a quick scan (and a deep review of the base Pangolin).  I am so glad that you balanced the stats in this way, and I am really excited that you paid attention to all those little references to information across the web stating that they did not have wonderful sight - and hence not giving them spot bonuses and Alertness.  Very good research work and balancing.  The AC, DR, Claws/Hardness, are all excellent and well-considered.

I have a small few more suggestion, and a quick flavor text critique (I'll do that one first):
"Its forelegs are armed with great curved claws [that curl under its paws, as if it walks on its knuckles]."  ...Or something similar.  If I had no picture and wanted my players to recognize it from their own memories, this point might help.  It is a trademark sign of the creature's anatomy.

Also, with Armoured Ball and critical hits, I am of the opinion that giving it immunity to criticals is a bit too polarized.  I think maybe lessening the critical range (my suggestion being two numbers lower of a critical threat range, minimum 0 critical threat range) would be better than an outright immunity, as if it were undead or a construct.  Ie, if a masterwork sword in the hands of a great fighter has a critical range of 17-20, it would be lessened to 19-20 - and a critical threat range of 19-20 would be no critical threat at all.

One last consideration: would Stink-Spray affect nearby creatures for a period of time following the spray?

PS: This last section I wrote before realizing that Cleon covered this in veritable detail with the additional Dire Pangolin, Giant Dire Pangolin, and Kaiju Pangolin that I did not see before I wrote all this next blob....  But I would still enjoy a little input about it anyway.

I also seem to find myself at odds with other creators and the standards on advancement...  My intuition tells me that I should get at least 1-2 advanced HD out of a creature at the same size, and change size thereafter.  I am also told often that advancing smaller, <=1 HD creatures is a waste of energy since they're not made for that usage...  But if I want a 6 HD Pangolin, aren't I allowed that privilege?  Are there rules to HD advancement of which I am unaware when working with low-HD creatures?

My previous encounter with this issue was with Dimorphodon, which we still have not truly resolved - because I wanted to have the ability to advance it to a range that it would be more apt to hold its own around PC characters....  I was told it just didn't work well enough for that, and my HD advancement suggestions were shot down.  Any input?  If not, oh well...  

If I am not way off base, is an advancement of 2 HD (Small), 3-4 HD (Medium) workable, and if not, what makes it so?

And to agree with freyar for a moment: HOLY ARMY OF PANGOLINS, BATMAN!  *surrenders*


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## Cleon (Sep 4, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> I have a small few more suggestion, and a quick flavor text critique (I'll do that one first):
> 
> "Its forelegs are armed with great curved claws [that curl under its paws, as if it walks on its knuckles]."  ...Or something similar.  If I had no picture and wanted my players to recognize it from their own memories, this point might help.  It is a trademark sign of the creature's anatomy.




Well it's not specific to Pangolins, many anteater-like animals do that, but it's worth mentioning. I'll add it to the write-up though. Oh, and I should mention how they prop themselves up on their tails, and the Tree Pangolin's prehensile tail, too.



xidoraven said:


> Also, with Armoured Ball and critical hits, I am of the opinion that giving it immunity to criticals is a bit too polarized.  I think maybe lessening the critical range (my suggestion being two numbers lower of a critical threat range, minimum 0 critical threat range) would be better than an outright immunity, as if it were undead or a construct.  Ie, if a masterwork sword in the hands of a great fighter has a critical range of 17-20, it would be lessened to 19-20 - and a critical threat range of 19-20 would be no critical threat at all.




I agree with you in principle. I had a few qualms when copying over the Armoured Ball critical immunity, but ended up just leaving it there.

I don't much care for your proposed remedy, though. It means an opponent with Improved Critical (pick) would get no benefit from it, while one with Improved Critical (scimitar) would still have two-thirds of their critical range.

I think a better solution is giving a Pangolin in an Armoured Ball something like *Fortification*. Indeed the tougher varieties of Pangolin could have some Fortification _when uncurled_.

I'm thinking:

*Pangolin, Tree Pangolin, Eomanis:* Light Fortification (25% chance of negating Critical Hit)
*Dire Pangolin:* Moderate Fortification (75% Critical negation), Light Fortification when uncurled.
*Kaiju Pangolin (Castle Eater):* Heavy Fortification (100% Critical negation), Moderate Fortification when uncurled.

I'm tempted to introduce an intermediate 50% step, we could call it "Mild Fortification", thus:

*Small-sized Pangolin, Tree Pangolin, Eomanis:* Light Fortification (25% chance of negating Critical Hit)
*Medium-sized Pangolin, Dire Pangolin:* Mild Fortification (50% Critical negation), Light Fortification when uncurled.
*Large-Sized (Giant) Dire Pangolin:* Moderate Fortification (75% Critical negation), Light Fortification when uncurled.
*Kaiju Pangolin (Castle Eater):* Heavy Fortification (100% Critical negation), Moderate Fortification when uncurled.

What do you think?



xidoraven said:


> One last consideration: would Stink-Spray affect nearby creatures for a period of time following the spray?




I think that's too much for the normal/dire versions. I feel only creatures that get the stuff covering their face should be seriously discombobulated by it. Other creatures may be disgusted, but won't be penalized.

Hmm, If I remember correctly the AD&D 1E version of the Skunk applied a Charisma penalty to skunk-sprayed characters until they got the scent off. Maybe something like that, a circumstance penalty to Bluff, Hide & Diplomacy checks?

Besides, a Ghast's stink doesn't work like that, and they smell _ghastly.

_I like it for the _Kaiju_ Pangolin though - something like:

Any creature that gets with 10 feet of a creature covered in the stink must make a DCX Fortitude check (- 1DC per hour?) or be sickened for 1d6+4 rounds? That also implies the Kaiju's stink has a secondary sickening effect to the primary target.

That works for me, it's evil. 



xidoraven said:


> I also seem to find myself at odds with other creators and the standards on advancement...  My intuition tells me that I should get at least 1-2 advanced HD out of a creature at the same size, and change size thereafter.  I am also told often that advancing smaller, <=1 HD creatures is a waste of energy since they're not made for that usage...  But if I want a 6 HD Pangolin, aren't I allowed that privilege?  Are there rules to HD advancement of which I am unaware when working with low-HD creatures?
> 
> My previous encounter with this issue was with Dimorphodon, which we still have not truly resolved - because I wanted to have the ability to advance it to a range that it would be more apt to hold its own around PC characters....  I was told it just didn't work well enough for that, and my HD advancement suggestions were shot down.  Any input?  If not, oh well...
> 
> If I am not way off base, is an advancement of 2 HD (Small), 3-4 HD (Medium) workable, and if not, what makes it so?




You're the DM, you can do what you like. If you wanted your Small Pangolins to have *Eight* Hit Dice nobody has the right to nay-say you! Although I'd wonder where they got the experience points from, maybe they get 1xp per ant? 

*Ahem.*

More seriously, most D&D creatures with "realistic" anatomies appear to double their Hit Dice with each size category. So there's no reason you couldn't go 1-2/3-4/5-8 Hit Dice. with a Pangolin.

While I put in preferred a more modest 1 HD/ 2 HD for the regular Pangolin, I did dither about making it 2-3 HD (Medium) and would have no objection to changing it.

As for the Dire Pangolin, most dire beast have triple maximum HD with a size increas , which above double HD, under which scheme my version would be 3-6 HD (Medium), 7-9 HD (Large). I deliberately downgraded it because I did not want a Giant Dire Pangolin to be _that_ good a mount.


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## Cleon (Sep 4, 2009)

Okay, I've added the claw, tail-propping etc. to the flavour text.



xidoraven said:


> And to agree with freyar for a moment: HOLY ARMY OF PANGOLINS, BATMAN!  *surrenders*




Now I want to do a Pangolin-themed supervillain, The Scaly Ant-Eater, with minions called Aardvark, Claws, Tongue-lash et cetera, who plays his claws like castanets.


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## xidoraven (Sep 6, 2009)

Hehe   

Well, I personally can say that I am satisfied with that helping of Pangolins - both modern and primitive - almost to the point of being unsure of whether I want to begin work on the Dinopriminal version of Eomanis...  

As far as I can see, these statistics look good.  I don't know if I am qualified to comment on their balance and integrity, but they seem super-cool to me.  Anyone else on input?
-will


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## Cleon (Sep 8, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> As far as I can see, these statistics look good.  I don't know if I am qualified to comment on their balance and integrity, but they seem super-cool to me.  Anyone else on input? -will




Ta Xidoraven, what do you think of the idea of giving them Fortification instead of blanket Critical immunity when rolled up?

Oh heck, I think I'll do it. I prefer the second version with the additional 50% step, so I'll edit the Pangolins' stats once I find the time.



Cleon said:


> I think a better solution is giving a Pangolin in an Armoured Ball something like *Fortification*. Indeed the tougher varieties of Pangolin could have some Fortification _when uncurled_.
> 
> I'm thinking:
> 
> ...


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## Cleon (Sep 8, 2009)

Okay, I've changed the Pangolins to have fortification.

I think they're all finished now, unless you can find something wrong with any of them!


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## xidoraven (Sep 11, 2009)

I like the idea of the chance within Fortification instead of the cut & dry method of lowered critical threat range.  I forget about fortification...  Which well-known creature has that as a precedent?

I knew you would follow your gut on it.    I think it looks great.  Can't complain, and it sets me up to begin work on the dinopriminal version.

On to the next one?  Potatotherium cries out for attention.   (Potamotherium draft: Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible)

*Dire Animal, Dire Otter* (_Potamotherium_)
From Potamotherium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Medium Animal*
*Hit Dice*: 3d8+6 (22 hp)
*Initiative*: +3
*Speed*: 25 ft. (5 squares), swim 35 ft. (7 squares)
*Armor Class*: 15 (+3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12
*Base Attack/Grapple*: +2/+2
*Attack*: Bite +5 melee (1d6-1)
*Full Attack*: Bite +5 melee (1d6-1)
*Space/Reach*: 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks*: —
*Special Qualities*: Hold breath, low-light vision
*Saves*: Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +5
*Abilities*: Str 8, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 7
*Skills*: Balance +9, Climb (Dex) +8, Escape Artist +7, Listen +6, Spot +6, Swim (Dex) +11
*Feats*: Weapon Finesse (Bite), Great Fortitude, Alertness (B), Agile (B)
*Environment*: Temperate Aquatic (freshwater rivers & lakeshores)
*Organization*: Solitary, pair, or family (3–12)
*Challenge Rating*: 2
*Treasure*: None
*Alignment*: Always neutral
*Advancement*: 4-6 HD (Medium), 7-10 (Large)
*Level Adjustment*: —

Potamotherii inhabit coastal regions of rivers and lakes throughout temperate lands, preying on small fish and insects. They sometimes become familiars to aquatic sorcerers or wizards, or animal companions to similar druids or rangers.

*Combat*
Potamotherium is an inquisitive animal. They fight only if cornered, and generally avoid contact with terrestrial civilizations in most cases.

*Hold Breath (Ex)*: Potamotherium can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 4


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2009)

I couldn't keep up with all the pangolin-related critters, but I'll jump back in on this one.

Here are the otter stats from Stormwrack...

Otter
Tiny Animal
Hit Dice: ½d8+1 (3 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 20 ft.
Armor Class: 14 (+2 size, +2 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-12
Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d3-4)
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d3-4)
Space/Reach: 2-½ ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Hold breath, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 3, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 5
Skills: Balance +6, Climb +6, Listen +3, Spot +3, Swim +10
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Environment: Temperate aquatic
Organization: Solitary, pair, or family (3-12)
Challenge Rating: ¼
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: -

Hold Breath (Ex): An otter can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 4 times its Constitution score before it risks drowning. For a typical otter, this is 48 rounds, or 5 minutes.

Skills: An otter has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

Otters have a +4 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. The use their Dexterity modifier for Climb and Swim checks.


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## Rappy (Sep 12, 2009)

I never quite got the low damage from otters in Stormwrack. Otters may look cute, but their dentition is rather nasty. They're a mustelid, after all. Then again, 1d3 is the same thing weasels get...


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## Shade (Sep 14, 2009)

Hmm...the Wikipedia article seems to indicate it is quite a bit smaller than the 3 HD dire weasel.

Otter:  Str 3, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 5
Weasel: Str 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 5
Dire Weasel: Str 14, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 11

Based on all that, I'd recommend 2 HD, Str 12, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 11.


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## freyar (Sep 14, 2009)

Sounds ok to me.


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## Cleon (Sep 15, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> I like the idea of the chance within Fortification instead of the cut & dry method of lowered critical threat range.  I forget about fortification...  Which well-known creature has that as a precedent?




None really, the closest I can think of are warforged, which can get natural fortification with a feat. I just borrowed the idea from a dinosaur thread on paizo which suggested giving fortification to _Ankylosaurus_.


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## Cleon (Sep 15, 2009)

Shade said:


> Hmm...the Wikipedia article seems to indicate it is quite a bit smaller than the 3 HD dire weasel.
> 
> Otter:  Str 3, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 5
> Weasel: Str 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 5
> ...




I was thinking the stats Xidoraven posted were for a dire version of _Potamotherium_.

The stats look alright, except I'd give them Cha 7 or so for the non-dire version. A giant weasel is 10 feet long and these are 5 feet, which suggests Small size for a regular _Potamotherium_. We can always do a dire version as well.

EDIT: Checking on the living species of giant otter, _Pteronura brasiliensis_, it's a bit bigger than _Potamotherium_ and is just on the border of the 3E Small/Medium divide, being 5-6 feet long and 45-100 pounds. I'm acting on the presumption that the "River Beast" could have been a Small-sized 40-50 pounds animal, but it could easily be Medium-sized and a bit heavier. :END EDIT

EDITED EDIT: Further on that, I found a webpage with the *Proceedings of the San Diego Society of Natural History* which contains the following: "The body weight of _Potamotherium_ (based on regression of dental dimensions in living carnivorans) has been estimated as 7.3 kg (Legendre and Roth 1988)", and a number of other sources that quote weights in the 5-15 kg or somewhere under 30, so it looks like it should be Small.

Well, there was one page that said they were 8 foot long and weighed 450 pounds, must have been talking about a dire _Potamotherium_! :END EDITED EDIT

Not so sure about the 2 Hit Dice. 1 HD might be enough, but I'll leave it at 2 for the time being.

Oh, and I agree with Rappy that they need a respectable bite damage. How about a Small-sized regular version with a 1d6 bite, and a Medium-sized dire version with a 2d6 bite?

Something like:

*Potamotherium
Small Animal*
*Hit Dice*: 2d8+2 (11 hp)
*Initiative*: +3
*Speed*: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 30 ft.
*Armor Class*: 15 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 12
*Base Attack/Grapple*: +2/-1
*Attack*: Bite +6 melee (1d6+1) [includes bonus Weapon Finesse feat]
*Full Attack*: Bite +6 melee (1d6+1)
*Space/Reach*: 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks*: ?
*Special Qualities*: Hold breath, low-light vision
*Saves*: Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +1
*Abilities*: Str 12, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7



Oh, and the typo "Potatotherium" is just begging to be converted into some kind of plant monster, a Tuber Beast which takes extra damage from oil and hot fat, presumably.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2009)

If we make the Potamotherium the "dire otter", I wouldn't want to then make a dire version of it.  That would result in a "dire dire otter".  

On the other hand, if you want to just make Potamotherium its own beast, and then make a separate "dire otter", I'd be on-board for your proposals.


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## xidoraven (Sep 16, 2009)

Cleon said:


> None really, the closest I can think of are warforged, which can get natural fortification with a feat. I just borrowed the idea from a dinosaur thread on paizo which suggested giving fortification to _Ankylosaurus_.




Something about comparing an ankylosaurus to a living construct such as a warforged brings a smile to my face.  



Cleon said:


> Oh, and the typo "Potatotherium" is just begging to be converted into some kind of plant monster, a Tuber Beast which takes extra damage from oil and hot fat, presumably.




Okay, this is true, but perhaps that is best suited for something less realistic than here.



Shade said:


> If we make the Potamotherium the "dire otter", I wouldn't want to then make a dire version of it.  That would result in a "dire dire otter".
> 
> On the other hand, if you want to just make Potamotherium its own beast, and then make a separate "dire otter", I'd be on-board for your proposals.




The version I made was simply taking a standard otter from Stormwrack and beefing it up with a homebrew dire creature templating method.  I am all for making it as realistic as possible, and then making a dire version off of it (which will then in turn be even more powerful as celestial creatures on the Nymian Beastlands).  I would rather begin with realism and go for the gusto with variations.


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## Cleon (Sep 16, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> The version I made was simply taking a standard otter from Stormwrack and beefing it up with a homebrew dire creature templating method.  I am all for making it as realistic as possible, and then making a dire version off of it (which will then in turn be even more powerful as celestial creatures on the Nymian Beastlands).  I would rather begin with realism and go for the gusto with variations.




That's my preference too. Let's start on a "realistic version" and see where we go.

Do you think my proposals in post #979 will do for a beginning?

After thinking about it I've lost my uncertainty over the 2 Hit Dice. I'm thinking it was about the weight of a big badger, which is 2 HD (Small) in the SRD, but probably not as bulky as a wolverine (25-50 lbs), which is 3 HD (Medium). That means it probably advances to Medium-sized.



> *Potamotherium
> Small Animal*
> *Hit Dice*: 2d8+2 (11 hp)
> *Initiative*: +3
> ...


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## GrayLinnorm (Sep 18, 2009)

This may make an interesting conversion: They discovered a new type of dinosaur named Raptorex which was an ancestor of Tyrannosaurus.  It looked exactly like a T-rex, but was only 8 feet tall.

www.usatoday.com/tech/science/discoveries/2009-09-17-mini-tyrannosaurus-rex_N.htm


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2009)

I saw that as well, and immediately thought the same thing.  

Here's another link to it:
Meet T-Rex's Diminutive Ancestor


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## Cleon (Sep 18, 2009)

What a coincidence, I was reading about _Raptorex kriegsteini_ in the papers too, and was thinking "Hmm, a Medium-sized Tyrannosaur, I wonder how many Hit Dice we'll give it over on Enworld".

Although it looks more like a pint-sized _Albertosaurus_ to me than the big guy.

Anyway, I think we should finish with the River Beast before converting mini-rex.

Oh, and it's not eight foot *tall*, it's eight or nine feet _*long*_. Although the articles I've read said it was a big juvenile, so I'm presuming they probably grew a little larger than that.


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## Cleon (Sep 20, 2009)

Okay, I've filled in the few gaps in my proposed stats for the "realistic animal" version of the _Potamotherium_ and came up with the following.

I upped their speed because otters are pursuit hunters able to catch fairly fast fish by outswimming them, and decided to give them Spring Attack as a bonus feat because I remembered reading something about giant otters driving away or even killing Caymans by darting in-and-out to bite them before they can react, like a mongoose fighting a snake.

I also toyed with the idea of giving it a Special Attack like the Attach of the SRD's Weasel, but decided against it.


What do you think?

*Potamotherium*
Small Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 2d8+2 (11 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares), swim 40 ft.
*Armor* *Class:* 15 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 12
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +2/–1
*Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1d6+1)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1d6+1)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./ 5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* —
*Special* *Qualities:* Agile swimmer, hold breath, low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 12, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
*Skills:* Balance +5, Climb +5, Escape Artist +6, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +11
*Feats:* Alertness, Spring Attack *(B)*, Weapon Finesse *(B)*
*Environment:* Temperate aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary, pair or family (3-12)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 1
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 3-4 HD (Medium)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

These slim fish-eating mammals may be a primitive ancestor of the modern otter, which they strongly resemble in shape and habits.

A typical _Potamotherium_ is up to 5 feet long, including its tail, and weighs around 30 pounds.

 *Combat*
These animals usually avoid combat, but when forced to fight they will circle around their opponent and use their Spring Attack feat to dart in, bite, and escape to a safe distance before their foe can respond.

*Agile Swimmer (Ex):* Unlike most creatures with a Swim speed, a _Potamotherium_ does not have to move in a straight line when it makes a Run action while swimming. It can turn by 90 degrees for every 5 feet it travels.

*Hold Breath (Ex):* A _Potamotherium _can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 4 times its Constitution score before it risks drowning. For a typical _Potamotherium_, this is 48 rounds, or 5 minutes.

*Skills*
A _Potamotherium_ has a +2 racial bonus on Balance, Climb and Escape Artist checks.

_Potamotheriums_ have a +8 racial bonus on Swim checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. A _Potamotherium_ can use either its Strength or its Dexterity bonus for Climb or Swim checks and can take the Run action while swimming (see Agile Swimmer).


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## xidoraven (Sep 22, 2009)

That looks really good as a standard, and I agree not to give it any attacks that aren't agreeable to its past.  Is there any evidence or debate over the possibility to endure either extreme warm or cold, or even superior low-light vision (as Giant Owl) because of hunting below water or even possibly hunting at night?

Those are really the only other considerations I would have in mind for it, and I can fiddle with an advanced version if I need to boost one up before I apply the celestial template to it.


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## Cleon (Sep 23, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> That looks really good as a standard, and I agree not to give it any attacks that aren't agreeable to its past.  Is there any evidence or debate over the possibility to endure either extreme warm or cold, or even superior low-light vision (as Giant Owl) because of hunting below water or even possibly hunting at night?




I don't think they have heat- or cold-resistance potent enough for it to be measurable in D&D terms. Even the Large SRD bears don't get cold resistance, so I don't think our dire otters should.

As for unusual senses, it was my understanding that otters didn't have great night vision, although I can see an argument for giving them very short-range blindsense to represent their whiskers.


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## xidoraven (Sep 23, 2009)

Would whisker-oriented blindsense only be functional underwater?  If so, negate any of those arguments and leave it as is.  If it deserves a look then I say let's do that - I like every animal to have its niche to claim persistence over many millenia, but not if it is unreasonable.


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## Cleon (Sep 24, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> Would whisker-oriented blindsense only be functional underwater?  If so, negate any of those arguments and leave it as is.  If it deserves a look then I say let's do that - I like every animal to have its niche to claim persistence over many millenia, but not if it is unreasonable.




I'd guess it would probably work in both air and water like standard blindsense. Mammals developed their whiskers on land, after all, and the aquatic ones (seals, otters etc) just adapted them for underwater.

I don't know whether otters' whiskers don't work so well in the air and even if they did, the _Potamotherium_ is a less specialized creature so it may still have "a whisker in both land and water".

So, blindsense 10 feet?


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## freyar (Sep 24, 2009)

Are their whiskers 10 ft long?  I also wonder if whiskers really work well enough to be considered blindsense.  Certainly my cats' whiskers don't!


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## xidoraven (Sep 25, 2009)

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I agree - blindsense seems farfetched in this instance, even at a 5 foot radius - even if it would be helpful in deep waters.

What about a bonus to grapple checks when prying open mussels (or any creature of two size categories smaller than the otter) instead?  That would be minor in most instances, and would really only be viably powerful in a substantially more advanced and larger version of Potamotherium...  That way, for example, a large-sized advanced river beast could have an easier time cracking open pangolins.    I might just be grasping at straws here...


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## Cleon (Sep 25, 2009)

freyar said:


> Are their whiskers 10 ft long?  I also wonder if whiskers really work well enough to be considered blindsense.  Certainly my cats' whiskers don't!




Well remember blindsense doesn't defeat concealment, it just lets a creature know "something's out there". Plus, cat's whiskers aren't limited to contact - they can feel the air-currents displaced by objects close to them.

We could cut the range to 5 feet, I suppose.

Anyway, it was just a suggestion in response to Xidoraven's asking whether there's any special trick we could give it.

I don't really care for the grapple bonus.

How about making it an Agile Swimmer, so when it makes a Run action while swimming it does not have to go in a straight line?


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## xidoraven (Sep 25, 2009)

I do have a tendency of pushing the boundaries...    

I like Agile Swimmer - niche-worthy and specific to this critter.  Good suggestion.  So...  It's done then, yeah?  I think that means I got all the beasties I needed for my campaign setting, and everything else I had to put forward would be reviews/revisions of previously created critters.  The new Wizards forums screwed up all of our links, but the drafts are still there - thank the gods.


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## Cleon (Sep 26, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> I do have a tendency of pushing the boundaries...
> 
> I like Agile Swimmer - niche-worthy and specific to this critter.  Good suggestion.  So...  It's done then, yeah?  I think that means I got all the beasties I needed for my campaign setting, and everything else I had to put forward would be reviews/revisions of previously created critters.  The new Wizards forums screwed up all of our links, but the drafts are still there - thank the gods.




Good, let's agree on that and call it a day for the "realistic" _Potamotherium._ I'll add Agile Swimmer to the stats in post #986.

I've got a dire version nearly finished, I'll try to post it sometimes this weekend.


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## Rappy (Sep 26, 2009)

I agree on calling it a day on this creature.


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## Cleon (Sep 27, 2009)

Okay, here's a take on the Dire Otter / Giant _Potamotherium_. It's basically just an enlarged version of the regular _Potamotherium_.

After dithering a lot about whether to add any special abilities to it for the sake of variety I stuck an Attach special attack onto it, but I'm not 100% sure I like it.

What do you lot think?


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## Cleon (Sep 27, 2009)

*Dire Otter*

*Dire Otter (Giant Potamotherium)*
Medium Animal (Dire)
*Hit* *Dice:* 4d8+12 (30 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares), swim 40 ft.
*Armor* *Class:* 16 (+3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 13
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +3/+6
*Attack:* Bite +7 melee (2d6+4)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +7 melee (2d6+4)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./ 5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Attach
*Special* *Qualities:* Agile swimmer, hold breath, low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +5
*Abilities:* Str 16, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 11
*Skills:* Balance +5, Climb +7, Escape Artist +6, Listen +6, Spot +6, Swim +11
*Feats:* Alertness, Spring Attack *(B)*, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Temperate aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary, pair or family (3-12)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 2
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 5-8 HD (Medium); 9-12 HD (Large)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

Dire otters can grow to over 10 feet in length, including their tails, and weigh 300 pounds or more.

*Combat*
While dire otters are as playful as normal otters, they can be far more ferocious, fighting with great tenacity if they feel threatened. They prefer to circle around opponents and use their Spring Attack feat to dart in, bite, and leap away before their foe can respond. When facing fast and agile opponents they often try to use their Attach special attack to lock onto them with their jaws.

*Agile Swimmer (Ex):* Unlike most creatures with a Swim speed, a dire otter does not have to move in a straight line when it makes a Run action while swimming. It can turn by 90 degrees for every 5 feet it travels.

*Attach (Ex):* If a dire otter hits with a bite attack, it can use its powerful jaws to latch onto the opponent’s body and automatically deal bite damage each round it remains attached. An attached dire otter loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class and has an AC of 13. An attached dire otter can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached dire otter through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the creature.

*Hold Breath (Ex):* A dire otter can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 4 times its Constitution score before it risks drowning. For a typical dire otter, this is 48 rounds, or 5 minutes.

*Skills*
A dire otter has a +2 racial bonus on Balance, Climb and Escape Artist checks.

Dire otters have a +8 racial bonus on Swim checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. A dire otter can use either its Strength or its Dexterity bonus for Climb or Swim checks and can take the Run action while swimming (see Agile Swimmer).


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## Shade (Sep 28, 2009)

The attach feels a bit extranneous.


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## Cleon (Sep 29, 2009)

Shade said:


> The attach feels a bit extranneous.




Yes, that's more or less my thinking. While it seemed appropriate for a mustelid, it doesn't really need it. I attached it to the dire otter mostly just for the sake of giving it a Special Attack.

Does anyone fancy keeping Attach, or shall I cut it out?


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## xidoraven (Oct 2, 2009)

It looks like Attach is erroneous for the needs of this creature.  I still think an ability giving the creature some bonus or increased ability to smash or pry open small hard critters like shellfish of two size categories smaller (and hardness of so much...) might still be applicable.  I was thinking of grapple bonus before, but maybe there is some other consideration that could instead be applied?
-will


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## Cleon (Oct 3, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> It looks like Attach is erroneous for the needs of this creature.  I still think an ability giving the creature some bonus or increased ability to smash or pry open small hard critters like shellfish of two size categories smaller (and hardness of so much...) might still be applicable.  I was thinking of grapple bonus before, but maybe there is some other consideration that could instead be applied?
> -will




Out of curiousity, what inspired you to want them clam-crackers, is their any evidence they were shellfish specialists like sea otters?


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## xidoraven (Oct 3, 2009)

It was pretty much just an assumption because of current otter diet.  I guess it would be beneficial to find out what kind of river/freshwater life they could have fed on instead...  But I have no evidence in either direction.

Rappy, do we have input from the experts?


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## Rappy (Oct 4, 2009)

I fashion that it'd be more likely that Potamotherium was a piscivore, akin to modern seals and giant otters.


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## Cleon (Oct 4, 2009)

Rappy said:


> I fashion that it'd be more likely that Potamotherium was a piscivore, akin to modern seals and giant otters.




That's my feeling to, so I'd rather not have a specialist shell-cracking ability.

How about we drop the idea of shell-cracking and consider the Attach SA as an "optional extra" and leave it to individual DMs whether to include it or not. It doesn't add much combat-worthiness but it would be useful for a Dire Otter to seize hold of fast, slipper fish. Its Spring Attack is far more useful in battle against a group of opponents.

If that's OK by you lot it means the Dire Otter is pretty much complete, so we can call it a day. We've just gone over the 1000 post limit, so it seems a good point to have Shade or another mod end this thread and start up "*Converting prehistoric creature, part 2*"


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## xidoraven (Oct 4, 2009)

Ok, I am sold on the piscivore idea.  No more shell-cracking statements from me.

I am not sure why we would want any stat that would be optional, however.  I say Attach should either be in or not, and that doesn't really affect how I see it so far, so I am neutral on the idea.

Technically, it will be conversions, part 3 - this is the second section of threads, as far as I know.    This forum gets stuff DONE.


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## Cleon (Oct 5, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> Ok, I am sold on the piscivore idea.  No more shell-cracking statements from me.
> 
> I am not sure why we would want any stat that would be optional, however.  I say Attach should either be in or not, and that doesn't really affect how I see it so far, so I am neutral on the idea.
> 
> Technically, it will be conversions, part 3 - this is the second section of threads, as far as I know.    This forum gets stuff DONE.




It sure do!

Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if we were a lot further along than part 3 the rate things used to go around here. Maybe I should just start saying "part X+1".


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2009)

We can probably stop calling it "converting" prehistoric creatures, since we've run out of conversions are essentially just "statting" prehistoric creatures at this point.


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## xidoraven (Oct 5, 2009)

Shade said:


> We can probably stop calling it "converting" prehistoric creatures, since we've run out of conversions are essentially just "statting" prehistoric creatures at this point.




Does that mean I can begin posting the creatures found elsewhere that require a thorough review and revision?  There are a lot of critters that would be an excellent resource if they were actually statted and balanced by people who know what they're doing....  Not that the last authors didn't - they just didn't have as efficient of a review team as here.  Raptorial (Rappy) posted a lot on the other threads that have stats but no flavor text, and there were a lot begun and not compared, balanced or finalized - including a few of my own.

It would give the next segment of this forum a new goal, and keep the list here getting bigger and better....?  I for one have already taken this project on as my own so that I have a thorough ecology for my new campaign setting, so in my mind it has to be done anyways - it would just be nice to not have to do it all on my own.

But to be fair and open about it, I am doing it both for my own game but also to put together a complete publication including player & dm information and critters (essentially an Eberron campaign setting but for Nym/Omarka).  I am a little concerned about how to go about getting permissions for something like this, since it is obvious that ENWorld has a great open source Creature Catalog including many of them, and I don't wish to tread on any toes....  Any input on this thought?

I also noticed that all these new conversions will need html pages for the CC...  Is anyone designated to do this, or is it something that a volunteer can put together?  I have Dreamweaver CS3 if so....
-will


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> Does that mean I can begin posting the creatures found elsewhere that require a thorough review and revision?  There are a lot of critters that would be an excellent resource if they were actually statted and balanced by people who know what they're doing....  Not that the last authors didn't - they just didn't have as efficient of a review team as here.  Raptorial (Rappy) posted a lot on the other threads that have stats but no flavor text, and there were a lot begun and not compared, balanced or finalized - including a few of my own.




Feel free to start a thread on this.  Honestly, I'm more concerned with converting the remaining critters than statting out every prehistoric creature of interest (not that that's not a worthy goal!)



xidoraven said:


> But to be fair and open about it, I am doing it both for my own game but also to put together a complete publication including player & dm information and critters (essentially an Eberron campaign setting but for Nym/Omarka).  I am a little concerned about how to go about getting permissions for something like this, since it is obvious that ENWorld has a great open source Creature Catalog including many of them, and I don't wish to tread on any toes....  Any input on this thought?




I'm not real sure about the permissions for a publication.  I doubt WotC would appreciate reprinting stuff from their 3e books like Stormwrack and so forth, but they probably won't pay much attention to things from past editions that are essentially just statblocks of real-world prehistoric creatures.



xidoraven said:


> I also noticed that all these new conversions will need html pages for the CC...  Is anyone designated to do this, or is it something that a volunteer can put together?  I have Dreamweaver CS3 if so....
> -will




I'm afraid we won't be putting them on the CC.  The CC is strictly for conversions (or slight variations we can at least tie to a creature that had stats in a previous incarnation of the game).   I know that homebrew sites exist (although I haven't looked at one myself in ages), and I'm sure some of the fine folk around here can point them out to you.   Failing that, you can always start a summary thread in Homebrews (like we do with the finished conversions) so they're all in one place.  Or use the ENWorld Wiki.


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## freyar (Oct 6, 2009)

By the way, that reminds me: there's a "new monsters" link at the top of the CC homepage, which is now broken.  I guess that (non-ENWorld) site is gone now.


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## xidoraven (Oct 6, 2009)

Shade said:


> Feel free to start a thread on this.  Honestly, I'm more concerned with converting the remaining critters than statting out every prehistoric creature of interest (not that that's not a worthy goal!)
> 
> I'm not real sure about the permissions for a publication.  I doubt WotC would appreciate reprinting stuff from their 3e books like Stormwrack and so forth, but they probably won't pay much attention to things from past editions that are essentially just statblocks of real-world prehistoric creatures.




I doubt WotC would appreciate anything I do, but that is another story altogether - they can reap the benefits of my work later when they have to pay me for it following their many years of thinking of their own superiority...  For now, I am going to take that one day at a time.  I will start here, and with the two other resources I know of online - and deal with the corporate side of it when it is a viable compilation of literature to show in my proposals.    I learned long ago to have a rough draft available to sell ideas.

If everyone who is a fan of dinosaurs and prehistoric beasties is in agreement, however - a project goal of reviewing, balancing, and revising past posts of related creatures until we have a workable ecological spectrum would be excellent.  Rabbit and I are working specifically with dinopriminals (prehistoric guardinal concept) right now, but everything vital to a unique and memorable campaign setting could really help, and there is a lot of untapped potential in the prehistoric domain - potentially even highly marketable with upcoming generations of dino-loving kids (I was one, and I bet the rest of you were too!)

I will make a revision thread separate from the Phantasy Prehistorium specifically to get a refined animal ecology down pat to make it easier to deal with.



> I'm afraid we won't be putting them on the CC.  The CC is strictly for conversions (or slight variations we can at least tie to a creature that had stats in a previous incarnation of the game).   I know that homebrew sites exist (although I haven't looked at one myself in ages), and I'm sure some of the fine folk around here can point them out to you.   Failing that, you can always start a summary thread in Homebrews (like we do with the finished conversions) so they're all in one place.  Or use the ENWorld Wiki.






freyar said:


> By the way, that reminds me: there's a "new monsters" link at the top of the CC homepage, which is now broken.  I guess that (non-ENWorld) site is gone now.




I made a comment on the index of unconverted creatures about my questions.  Also, what governs the direction of the Creature Catalog aside from conversions of previous editions?
-will


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> I made a comment on the index of unconverted creatures about my questions.  Also, what governs the direction of the Creature Catalog aside from conversions of previous editions?
> -will




That is pretty much it's only direction.  That's always been a lofty goal, considering the sheer number of creatures from previous editions.

See my reply in the other thread you referenced.  It's not my sandbox...I'm just a kid who shows up every day to make sand castles.


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## xidoraven (Oct 6, 2009)

Great analogy, Shade.  And thanks - that helps immensely.  More to come, then.

For those who want to do revisions in addition to the conversions, I set up a thread here: Prehistoric Animals Review & Revisions.  I will try to get a re-written index posted as soon as I can.

And you know, here's a thought: what should be done with these 3E creatures that might be incredibly cool for new 4E players?  In other words, is converting present creatures to 4E the next step after completing the conversion from past editions to 3E?  If so, how the HELL can it even be managed?  Or is that the point of WotC's actions: to completely screw us out of ever making anything of our own ever again for the most current system (so as not to be competitive with them for their profits)?

Just a thought...
-will


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## freyar (Oct 8, 2009)

xido -- we don't have any plans at the CC to convert to 4e.  Even the legal issues would probably be difficult to work out, never mind personal taste.  Converting the unconverted beasties to 3.X will take a few years, no doubt, and then we can always update the ones that only made it to 3.0.


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2009)

What freyar said.  

I am far more interested in Pathfinder than what WotC's doing nowadays.


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## xidoraven (Oct 16, 2009)

Well, as long as we have something good to discuss, we could keep this thread open a little longer.   

Well, I have been dead broke for the whole year - and then some...  So I have had little to no money to invest in gaming materials since the release of 4e.  At that time, I carefully reviewed the books published and released, including artwork, potential contribution to current games, potential for materials which would be of value to crafting/converting to 4e for possible publication ideas (even a _*mention*_ of the new GSL/ content, for god sakes!), as well as how useful they might be to me in the next year, when I could then afford to re-evaluate them again.  I have yet to purchase them after careful consideration - and with good reason.

So, when I had money that I considered using on 4e is worth it at that time (it would have had to be REALLY worth it at that time, too - because I was still recovering from being homeless and separated from people I knew - but it was possibly that important, considering my ideas of putting together something from my compiled previous ideas...).  I looked at Pathfinder and considered it as interesting as Forgotten Realms or Eberron setting publications - which I didn't feel like purchasing - although I liked that they were not going to 'shift forward' with WotC 4e.  I knew a few publishers stuck behind, unwilling to see the new market that Wizards was trying to create....  Anyways, I didn't buy any of that stuff.  I bought the 3e and 3.5e stuff from WotC and third party publishers that was going on huge sale now that Wizards decided to screw their baseline consumers...  I mean, revamp...  or something.

What is the summary delineation of Pathfinder in terms of a campaign/method/story, and aside from the annual allotment of new material compilations (are they a bi-monthly or quarterly publication?), how else is it worthwhile?

Now that Wizards has stirred their RPGA into 4e-centric players and GM/storytellers methodology, there is no real comprehensive and independent roleplaying organization to fill the gap that the RPGA leaving its previous fans behind has created...  Is there something I am missing here that will help the 3.5e community alive, well, and maintained despite WotC's drop of the system?  I am all for it, but I want to see our baseline benefit from the work we've got to offer.  I am always working on compiling previous content to new campaign setting material; is Pathfinder a great resource for helping to develop those goals?  I always thought Dragon was great - never got to see the difference between it and Dungeon magazine...

So let's be clear, in addition to the index of unconverted animals, there are also similar lists of unconverted creatures of other types as well, yeah?  I would like to scope of this project to get an idea, and see how far-fetched it would be ask the two of you to also just kind of keep an idea on the discussion about balancing the prehistoric animals currently outlined, and setting up a system of ideals for incoming animal requests as needed.

I think it would be great to have the two of you keeping watch just to keep it moving swiftly and not getting stuck on silly or erroneous points (I am guilty of it as well, so me just the same as everyone else), and making sure that precendents once set should be maintained.  Aside from simply creature revisions, there are also a few homebrew feats and skill usage creations as well that might be considered for review.  I just think it would be helpful to have organized people around to think it through with us.  Me and Cleon is a sad story by ourselves - it could go so much more smoothly with just a quip from each of you every day or so on progress made.

Plus, I like to beg for perks on creatures I really like, and you both are good at telling me no - which I need.  Please.  *puppy eyes*
-will


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2009)

Hehe, I'd love to work on the prehistoric animal revisions, but I just can't keep up when you and Cleon get going, at least not with how busy I am with work right now (which is just applying for new jobs at the moment, not even my real work).  So I have trouble just staying up on the actual conversions.   But I'll try to drop in now and then if I get a chance.

There are indeed other lists of unconverted critters!  Echohawk has many threads, including breakdowns by type and setting, and there is also his master index of all D&D monsters ever.  One of the stickied threads in this forum is our "countdown" thread of all the unconverted monsters left.  We're probably down close to 800 to go, depending on whether you only count stuff actually in the CC already.

As for Pathfinder, the name means two different things.  There is the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, which includes the main book and a lot of supplements and is the setting for the monthly adventure path books.  It's also the setting for Pathfinder Society Organized Play, which is Paizo's version of the RPGA.  But Pathfinder also means the Pathfinder RPG, which is sort of like D&D 3.75.  There's an online SRD for it, either through Paizo here or on a fansite here.  It's largely compatible with 3.5e, but it's tweaked a bit for smoother play.  The Bestiary is just coming out (think 3.5 MM with some critters changed out), so I'm jazzed to see how some of the monsters have changed.  In any event, it has a big following, and I think you can convert rules on the fly, so there is essentially now continual support for 3.X D&D.


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## xidoraven (Oct 18, 2009)

*Pathfinder Game*

Looks like Tumble and Jump became Acrobatics - which is always decent; I enjoyed Sleight of Hand, and Monte Cook's Sneak as Move Silently and Hide combined skill uses.

But, CMA and CMD?  I can make a melee attack, but defending...?  And what about a ranged attack?  I am not quite sure I get that bit right now.

I would probably be much more excited seeing a beastiary - I always enjoy monster compendiums, ecologies/supplements for types/subtypes/races, and the like.  I have many third party books for just that reason - they have excellent monster resources that always stir my creativity.

I would appreciate the simple monitoring as it is possible.  Believe it or not, Cleon blows even me out of the water on timely postings of large amounts of content...  Even I feel out of breath after reading them.     But I would definitely love any reviews of stats, descriptions, flavor text and homebrew abilities, etc for balance and precedence to the other animals/dinos/prims already converted.

Also, after hearing Raptorial (Rappy)'s input on the last converted creatures, I certainly have to ask him/her to give input on the creatures that I would admit is a specialization that is so helpful here, and I also think would keep us on task.  Maybe if  someone involved in the larger plans wanted to make a mention to other creators and conversion members to ask if they would like to put in on it - I think the more people contributing the faster it moves and gets things done, like you did here (I came in at like page 33, and here we are on page 51 in almost no time!)  I think it would add a nearly priceless contribution to your conversions & homebrew that would pay itself off, and which I plan on instituting a punlishable standard prehistoric ecology as a standalone resource, or for implementation into a fantasy/other campaign setting.  Just a posting about it and some credibility is all it needs to get finished relatively quickly and simply - and keeping an eye every now and again will keep it from being a ranting mess, which is always a plus.  

Rappy, please don't leave me abandoned!  This is your calling, I promise!    So far, outwardly helping in it are Cleon, InsanePsychoRabbit, and myself - as well as another member from the WotC forum, usernamed bhu.  Plus, this forum has so much success to show for its accomplished goals, and this is the perfect outlet for the unique experience of the members here....
-will


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## freyar (Oct 18, 2009)

Regular melee and ranged attacks work as usual in Pathfinder.  CMB and CMD are for performing special combat maneuvers (grapple, bull rush, disarm, etc) and defending againtst them.  It's a single, more streamlined system.  The "Pathfinder RPG" forum toward the top of the ENWorld forums listing has some threads about specifics.


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## xidoraven (Oct 19, 2009)

Ok, yeah I see it now (it was a long night when I found your response and that page).  That makes sense.  I always wondered why we couldn't just have it as a detail mark on the weapon/attack form entry/table....  Having BAB by itself directly solves no issue of attack except picking up a rock or big stick and attacking someone with it, and I always thought it was a little big and obvious for being merely a bit of data built into other separate attack equations.  I get why CMA/CMD would be helpful and useful.

Where would be the best place to get interested people to review, rank and recommend on your homebrew works on this site?  I need to get a full review of two rolls I have been employing on my work with immortals/deities because of how it relates to new material - specifically review by people that have never seen it before....?

Particularly, the rolls I need looked at are called _*'Ego'*_ and *'Spirit'*.  The former is a variant rule for intelligent items, and how two minds/psyches interact between divine powers; the latter is an inherent spiritual force driving the power without need for its Ego/Psyche (Subconscious, superconscious, divine consciousness).  See them here: Ego Roll and Spirit Roll.  These were initially created for use with Deific Traits (De) as an alternative to Divine Rank-based divine dominance, for use with my other variant rules system for immortality, or Inath / Cabala Inata.  Now I need to find a way to balance and strategize them for use with (another) system called Nymian Sigilry.  In other words, I need to fix a chinked link in my chain, and I wonder where people will look at it and give me input like we all got here over the last good while.

Ego Rolls not to be confused with Egg Rolls.  Thanks!  
-will


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## freyar (Oct 19, 2009)

Hmm, try posting in the 3e homebrew rules forum.  I'm afraid I'm not much use with divine rank rules, though.


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## xidoraven (Oct 20, 2009)

Ok, I am doing that now.  So...  I guess this means that this forum is over...?  *sniffles*
-will

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3r...eatures-variant-rules-please.html#post4969656 is where I am putting it for now.


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> Ok, I am doing that now.  So...  I guess this means that this forum is over...?  *sniffles*
> -will
> 
> http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3r...eatures-variant-rules-please.html#post4969656 is where I am putting it for now.



Hey, you can always post here and help with other conversions too!


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## xidoraven (Oct 21, 2009)

Oh, I was under the impression that now that the conversion for this specific need is over that this forum would be locked.

I could indeed help with the conversion, but the whole project I began on was with prehistoric creatures, and I must finalize that and the fantasy implications of such creatures in game usage for the campaign setting stuff before I branch out too far again.  My last campaign setting that I had hoped to publish went up in flames when friends of mine whom had worked with me on the cosmology and worlds decided they did not want any of their materials published... ever.

So I am starting all over new and making sure that my ecology makes the most sense first and working my way out from there using fiction and themed elements.  I wasn't going to go back to anything related to immortality and Divine Rank with this new campaign setting, but I realized these rolls would be necessary with Sigilry because of the use of Ego to establish psychic dominance over sigil effects, etc.

Have you never been in a position where a player was interested in becoming a demigod, or a DM who was really into bringing the gods down to earth?  I have found that having a player-oriented system for this is actually not only more organized and not delineated around Divine Rank, as well as more balanced in terms of splitting it over multiple levels of progression, as opposed to simply gaining a boatload of divine powers over a very short span of time, and simply with the upgrade of a whole Divine Rank.  [Divine Rank only]: Very icky, not fun, not very creative, and so little to look forward to as a player.  It makes one consider the aspects of atheism as a character in a much more positive light as well - which is counter-intuitive to the idea of Divine Power at all.  I had to make a system which helped to eliminate these restrictions.
-will


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2009)

Oh, you mean the thread.  But there are so many more types of critters to convert.


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## xidoraven (Oct 21, 2009)

Yeah, sorry - the thread.    Well, you know I can't argue with that, but I have to stay on task at least until I get a final deliverable together that says that I can diversify again.  First I need to finish prehistoric creatures (and variations on them, templates, etc.), angelic beings dealing with protection over Nym, and get a leg up on these Mechanoids as well (Outsiders, and Living Constructs) - which should be a simple conversion from Modron stats.  So I will catch up with yall when I am getting done with those things and have more time to devote to just sitting around being creative.    In the meantime, Cleon and I are going to bust out some beasties.
-will


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## Shade (Sep 20, 2010)

Closed due to exceeding the 1,000 post limit.


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