# Wheel of Time Full Trailer is out *No Spoilers Please*



## TheSword (Sep 2, 2021)

So the 2 minute trailer is out for the Wheel of Time series, coming in November. It is looking bloody good! There are a few experienced actors in there I recognise, who I didnt know were in it, to support the newcomers. 

Also I think theres no doubt that this is going to be high fantasy which is good. We dont often get that in our fantasy media. My gut feeling is this could one of the closest mainstream liveaction media productions to what we consider typical dungeons and dragons. A party of heroes starting at level 1 (With a couple of DM NPCS) travelling to defeat evil in a high fantasy campaign.

What are people's thoughts? Even if you don't like the books, would the trailer capture your interest enough to tempt you to watch it?


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## payn (Sep 2, 2021)

Looks like its going to be right between _The Witcher_ and _Game of Thrones_ in terms of execution. An ok spot to be I suppose, guess we will see when it launches.


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## TheSword (Sep 2, 2021)

I've just seen that James Buckley is doing the Soundtrack. I try not to expect to much from Trailer soundtracks as they can sometimes be totally different to the series... Game of Thrones being a good example, but this one did sound good.

James Buckly is a great composer though. The new Bourne film soundtrack was really good. Lots of action films in his portfolio. Interested to see if it has the softer side too, or if it will be all intense action...


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## Wolfram stout (Sep 2, 2021)

Like a lot of people here, I ground to a stop around Book 7.  But yes, I will watch.  My wife, who has not read the books at all, will be very interested in watching.


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## MarkB (Sep 2, 2021)

TheSword said:


> What are people's thoughts? Even if you don't like the books, would the trailer capture your interest enough to tempt you to watch it?



Nope. Just looks like loads and loads of characters in the Realms of Generica.


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## Dioltach (Sep 2, 2021)

This is starting to look very good ...


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## Gradine (Sep 2, 2021)

Interesting that they're really down-selling the role of Rand, Mat, and Perrin, at this point, and are instead emphasizing Egwene as a sort of "chosen one". 

Looks specactular. Can't for wait for it


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## doctorbadwolf (Sep 2, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Nope. Just looks like loads and loads of characters in the Realms of Generica.



this may be the wildest thing I've seen someone say about an upcoming fantasy adaptation in years.


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## MarkB (Sep 2, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> this may be the wildest thing I've seen someone say about an upcoming fantasy adaptation in years.



Sorry, but I have no familiarity with the source material (I think I struggled through a chapter or two of the first novel a couple of decades ago), and the trailer just presents a load of generic faces and places without giving me any real clue as to who's important, who's the main character, whether anyone's likeable, or what the plot is about. Oh, except the villain's called "The Dark One", which is about the most generic fantasy villain name ever.


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## Umbran (Sep 2, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Nope. Just looks like loads and loads of characters in the Realms of Generica.




I don't actually care so much if the world is generic, if the _characters_ are interesting people.

For me alone, it would depend on what other fantasy on the docket of stuff I'm watching at the time.  My wife was a fan of the earlier books, but like many, didn't finish because he bogged himself down, so I expect she might be interested.  And I'll give anything she likes at least a shot.


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## Zardnaar (Sep 2, 2021)

Give it a shot. Looks alright.


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## TheSword (Sep 2, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Sorry, but I have no familiarity with the source material (I think I struggled through a chapter or two of the first novel a couple of decades ago), and the trailer just presents a load of generic faces and places without giving me any real clue as to who's important, who's the main character, whether anyone's likeable, or what the plot is about. Oh, except the villain's called "The Dark One", which is about the most generic fantasy villain name ever.



I’m not sure exactly you expect from a teaser trailer? Full synopsis and a character sketch of each of the leads? The villain is called Shai’tan but that’s neither here nor there.


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## MarkB (Sep 2, 2021)

TheSword said:


> I’m not sure exactly you expect from a teaser trailer? Full synopsis and a character sketch of each of the leads? The villain is called Shai’tan but that’s neither here nor there.



I don't expect much, and I'm optimistic for the series to be potentially worth watching. But you asked whether the trailer would capture the interest of someone not familiar with the novels - and for me the answer is no, it didn't capture my interest.


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## Parmandur (Sep 2, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Nope. Just looks like loads and loads of characters in the Realms of Generica.



Well, it is a bunch of characters, but it is far from generic.


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## Parmandur (Sep 2, 2021)

Gradine said:


> Interesting that they're really down-selling the role of Rand, Mat, and Perrin, at this point, and are instead emphasizing Egwene as a sort of "chosen one".
> 
> Looks specactular. Can't for wait for it



Well, all 6 Edmond Fielders are super important, and they seem to not want to give too much away here to folks who aren't established fans of the books to maintain the effect of the core revelations of the first book. 

Tons of little details from the first two books in here, fairly astonishing how much they packed into two minutes.


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## Parmandur (Sep 2, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Sorry, but I have no familiarity with the source material (I think I struggled through a chapter or two of the first novel a couple of decades ago), and the trailer just presents a load of generic faces and places without giving me any real clue as to who's important, who's the main character, whether anyone's likeable, or what the plot is about. Oh, except the villain's called "The Dark One", which is about the most generic fantasy villain name ever.



Well, admittedly "The Dark One" is literally Satan-Who-is-the-Devil, but by going full hog it actually transcends normal Heroic Fantasy bad guy sterotypes and is ultimately much weirder.


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## Parmandur (Sep 2, 2021)

MarkB said:


> I don't expect much, and I'm optimistic for the series to be potentially worth watching. But you asked whether the trailer would capture the interest of someone not familiar with the novels - and for me the answer is no, it didn't capture my interest.



I can say that this is definitely a trailer for the fans...because never having seen most of these actors I knew who most of them were from the books precisely, and what was happening in the flash scenes and why. I'll bet there are more trailers latter for people who haven't read the books, but readers of the novels are not an inconsiderable audience to start with.


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## doctorbadwolf (Sep 2, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Sorry, but I have no familiarity with the source material (I think I struggled through a chapter or two of the first novel a couple of decades ago), and the trailer just presents a load of generic faces and places without giving me any real clue as to who's important, who's the main character, whether anyone's likeable, or what the plot is about. Oh, except the villain's called "The Dark One", which is about the most generic fantasy villain name ever.



I’m just at a loss as to what in the trailer is “generic”. I mean...the characters are human and there is magic? That's....about it.


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## Benjamin Olson (Sep 2, 2021)

Well, whatever else it may be, I will predict that it will be better than the previous television adaptation of Wheel of Time.


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## doctorbadwolf (Sep 3, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> I can say that this is definitely a trailer for the fans...because never having seen most of these actors I knew who most of them were from the books precisely, and what was happening in the flash scenes and why. I'll bet there are more trailers latter for people who haven't read the books, but readers of the novels are not an inconsiderable audience to start with.



To be fair, I had trouble tracking who a lot of the characters were without help. My wife had to point out that Egwene is the girl in the river and in the half naked scene, and I've no idea who the old guy in the "no matter what happens, the wheel keeps turning" bit was. 

But yeah, its very much a "build hype by inviting fans to dig into the trailer shot by shot to find all the details" trailer. Still, diverse cast, a mysterious council of female mages that protect the world, a city consumed by living shadow, a monster with a mouth for a face, etc. Not exactly bringing any other fantasy property I can think of in recent years to mind.


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## doctorbadwolf (Sep 3, 2021)

Benjamin Olson said:


> Well, whatever else it may be, I will predict that it will be better than the previous television adaptation of Wheel of Time.



I just wish there was some chance of them still using Billy Zane in the new adaptation. Such a waste of a brilliant casting decision. 

Pretty much give me Zane as Ishamael and Kenneth Brannagh as Lews Therin. In a perfect world.


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## TheSword (Sep 3, 2021)

Benjamin Olson said:


> Well, whatever else it may be, I will predict that it will be better than the previous television adaptation of Wheel of Time.



How true.

What I will say, is that had they been able to make their half arsed version back in 2015 we wouldn’t have the full glory of this season, with the backing of Amazon, and the lessons learnt from Game of Thrones or The Witcher etc. 

So thank god their pilot was so dire!


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## TheSword (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> To be fair, I had trouble tracking who a lot of the characters were without help. My wife had to point out that Egwene is the girl in the river and in the half naked scene, and I've no idea who the old guy in the "no matter what happens, the wheel keeps turning" bit was.
> 
> But yeah, its very much a "build hype by inviting fans to dig into the trailer shot by shot to find all the details" trailer. Still, diverse cast, a mysterious council of female mages that protect the world, a city consumed by living shadow, a monster with a mouth for a face, etc. Not exactly bringing any other fantasy property I can think of in recent years to mind.



It’s Michael McElhatton (Roose Bolton from GOT) playing Tam Al’Thor.

Excited by this casting. He was one of the experienced actors I referenced that I didn’t know was in it. Along with Sophie Okenedo as Siuan Sanche who I also really like.

Trailer treats!!!


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## Garthanos (Sep 3, 2021)

Wolfram stout said:


> Like a lot of people here, I ground to a stop around Book 7.  But yes, I will watch.  My wife, who has not read the books at all, will be very interested in watching.



You should have stuck through book 9...  Or at least I thought that was the one-> 



Spoiler



in which the male side of the one power was cleansed.


 (my memory is shoddy though)


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## TheSword (Sep 3, 2021)

Garthanos said:


> You should have stuck through book 9...  Or at least I thought that was the one-> in XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (my memory is shoddy though)



Arggghhh… Spoilers!!!!!

Dude use the tags, this is a trailer thread and that’s a major spoiler. Particularly where there are people here commenting that they haven’t read that far.

It’s not actually that funny to do that either so I don’t know why you’re laughing at this post.


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## Rune (Sep 3, 2021)

Wolfram stout said:


> Like a lot of people here, I ground to a stop around Book 7.  But yes, I will watch.  My wife, who has not read the books at all, will be very interested in watching.



i read all of them except the posthumous ones.

My most vivid memory is that there were a stretch of three books where nothing really happened. In one of them, _literally_ nothing happened until the last few pages.

I would read the last books, but it’s been so long, I’d have to start the series over to know what’s going on. And I am _definitely not_ going to do that!


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## doctorbadwolf (Sep 3, 2021)

TheSword said:


> It’s Michael McElhatton (Roose Bolton from GOT) playing Tam Al’Thor.
> 
> Excited by this casting. He was one of the experienced actors I referenced that I didn’t know was in it. Along with Sophie Okenedo as Siuan Sanche who I also really like.
> 
> Trailer treats!!!



My wife is thinking that scene might be showing the last Amyrlin, rather than Siuan Sanche, as it might show us when Morraine left the tower.


TheSword said:


> Arggghhh… Spoilers!!!!!
> 
> Dude use the tags, this is a trailer thread and that’s a major spoiler.
> 
> It’s not actually that funny to do that either so I don’t know why you’re laughing at this post.



It's not so much funny to "do" a spoiler, as it is..._*very *_odd for many of us to get upset about spoilers. I mean we're talking about a trailer for an adaptation of a series that we could discuss in any other thread in the same way without anyone yelling "spoilers!" at us.


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## Parmandur (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> To be fair, I had trouble tracking who a lot of the characters were without help. My wife had to point out that Egwene is the girl in the river and in the half naked scene, and I've no idea who the old guy in the "no matter what happens, the wheel keeps turning" bit was.
> 
> But yeah, its very much a "build hype by inviting fans to dig into the trailer shot by shot to find all the details" trailer. Still, diverse cast, a mysterious council of female mages that protect the world, a city consumed by living shadow, a monster with a mouth for a face, etc. Not exactly bringing any other fantasy property I can think of in recent years to mind.



Pretty sure that is Tam al'Thor.


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## Parmandur (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> My wife is thinking that scene might be showing the last Amyrlin, rather than Siuan Sanche, as it might show us when Morraine left the tower.
> 
> It's not so much funny to "do" a spoiler, as it is..._*very *_odd for many of us to get upset about spoilers. I mean we're talking about a trailer for an adaptation of a series that we could discuss in any other thread in the same way without anyone yelling "spoilers!" at us.



Sophie Okenado is Siuan Sanche, per the cast listings.


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## TheSword (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> My wife is thinking that scene might be showing the last Amyrlin, rather than Siuan Sanche, as it might show us when Morraine left the tower.
> 
> It's not so much funny to "do" a spoiler, as it is..._*very *_odd for many of us to get upset about spoilers. I mean we're talking about a trailer for an adaptation of a series that we could discuss in any other thread in the same way without anyone yelling "spoilers!" at us.



I’m referring to @Garthanos laughing at a post calling for a spoiler tag. For a thread about a trailer where people have posted saying they don’t know it but plan on watching. I get that you and Parmander and others have read some or part of the series, but there is a difference between referencing a characters name or a place vs mentioning the outcome of a major plot event.

It’s just common courtesy. Or mark the whole thread as spoilerific so people can choose not to comment. That wasn’t the intention here though. It was to gauge reaction to the new trailer.

Maybe it’s just me and people don’t have an issue with it. In the other forums/discord’s I post you’d be crucified for sharing that kind of info though.


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## doctorbadwolf (Sep 3, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> Pretty sure that is Tam al'Thor.



Much older and less....farm-strength looking, than I imagined, but he's a great actor. I have trouble imagining being intimidated by him, but I'm sure he'll pull off the key points of the character in spite of not being imposing.


Parmandur said:


> Sophie Okenado is Siuan Sanche, per the cast listings.



Yeah I find the process of following all this stuff in that much detail pretty exhausting, so I'm not surprised I don't know who is playing who.


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## MarkB (Sep 3, 2021)

TheSword said:


> I’m referring to @Garthanos laughing at a post calling for a spoiler tag. For a thread about a trailer where people have posted saying they don’t know it but plan on watching. I get that you and Parmander and others have read some or part, but there is a difference between referencing a characters name or a place vs mentioning the outcome of a major plot event.
> 
> It’s just common courtesy. Or mark the whole thread as spoilerific so people can choose not to comment. That wasn’t the intention here though. It was to gauge reaction to the new trailer.
> 
> Maybe it’s just me and people don’t have an issue with it. In the other forums/discord’s I post you’d be crucified for sharing that kind of info though.



I appreciate it. I may not be sold on the series from this trailer, but if I do find myself enjoying it, I'd much prefer to experience the story without spoilers. And it'd be nice to think we'd be able to then discuss the series on this forum without people posting book spoilers.


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## Tonguez (Sep 3, 2021)

payn said:


> Looks like its going to be right between _The Witcher_ and _Game of Thrones_ in terms of execution. An ok spot to be I suppose, guess we will see when it launches.



Hmmm I dont know the Wheel of Time source material but Im far more interested in this than I was in the Witcher or any other fantasy offering thats come out lately (I only started watching GoT at the end of season 4).

I dont mind generic fantasy TV if its got an interesting story and cool interesting magic fx


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## Urriak Uruk (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I’m just at a loss as to what in the trailer is “generic”. I mean...the characters are human and there is magic? That's....about it.




So as someone who has read the books, and largely did understand most of the references in this trailer... I would agree that for someone who knows zilch about the books, this teaser probably would look generic.

There isn't a ton said in this trailer beyond "Darkness is coming, and people use magic to combat that darkness!" One doesn't really get the actual plot or uniqueness of this series here beyond that. 


This Witcher trailer does a much better job overall... it's very focused on a singular character (Geralt) and actually drives home that the series revolves around him and a lot of that internal struggle.

There isn't much of that in this WoT teaser. Which, to be clear,_ it's just a teaser _so has little to do with the series actual quality.

Only thing that really stood out to me much as a fan is that they seemed to highlight Egwene more than Ran (who I thought was supposed to be the main character!) and that the Myrdraal seemed like a very good depiction (creepy mouth!)


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## Garthanos (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> It's not so much funny to "do" a spoiler, as it is..._*very *_odd for many of us to get upset about spoilers.



Yes it was the strong reaction


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## Parmandur (Sep 3, 2021)

Urriak Uruk said:


> So as someone who has read the books, and largely did understand most of the references in this trailer... I would agree that for someone who knows zilch about the books, this teaser probably would look generic.
> 
> There isn't a ton said in this trailer beyond "Darkness is coming, and people use magic to combat that darkness!" One doesn't really get the actual plot or uniqueness of this series here beyond that.
> 
> ...



The Mydraal really made me jump, very cool depiction.

Who the "main character" of the Wheel of Time is super complicated, though I won't go into detail to avoid spoilers: sure, Rand is pretty darn central to the whole enterprise, but Egwene, Mat, Nyneave, Lan, and Perrin are all extremely important and have a lot happen to them over just the initial two books. A TV show doesn't have a narrative viewpoint like the book does, and even the most Rand-centric books aren't all Rand, all the time: for this season, 79% of the word count for the first book, but down to 53% of the word count for the second book. And the non-Rand characters are still important in the material originally seen through his eyes.


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## TheSword (Sep 3, 2021)

Urriak Uruk said:


> There isn't a ton said in this trailer beyond "Darkness is coming, and people use magic to combat that darkness!" One doesn't really get the actual plot or uniqueness of this series here beyond that.



My preference is not to get plot elements in a trailer to be honest. If there’s one thing that gets on my goat (other than untagged spoilers) is when trailers give too much away… which come to think of it, is kind of like a spoiler.

Totally agree with the other comments though.


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## Garthanos (Sep 3, 2021)

Urriak Uruk said:


> So as someone who has read the books, and largely did understand most of the references in this trailer... I would agree that for someone who knows zilch about the books, this teaser probably would look generic.
> 
> There isn't a ton said in this trailer beyond "Darkness is coming, and people use magic to combat that darkness!" One doesn't really get the actual plot or uniqueness of this series here beyond that.



Reminds me of the issue of the World of Warcraft movie if you were a fan you were going wow I have interacted with that character and I have been there and so on. If you werent into the game it didnt fly too high.


Urriak Uruk said:


> There isn't much of that in this WoT teaser. Which, to be clear,_ it's just a teaser _so has little to do with the series actual quality.



The series I am hoping will be sweet highly dependent on actors and directors it is a wait and see.


Urriak Uruk said:


> Only thing that really stood out to me much as a fan is that they seemed to highlight Egwene more than Ran (who I thought was supposed to be the main character!) and that the Myrdraal seemed like a very good depiction (creepy mouth!)



Loved the Myrdraal too.


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## Garthanos (Sep 3, 2021)

TheSword said:


> My preference is not to get plot elements in a trailer to be honest. If there’s one thing that gets on my goat (other than untagged spoilers) is when trailers give too much away… which come to think of it, is kind of like a spoiler.
> 
> Totally agree with the other comments though.



I apologise


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## Puddles (Sep 3, 2021)

The trailer looks cool, I’ll definitely give it a watch!

I read the first 3 books in the series (15 years ago) but recognise nothing in the trailer lol. Where’s Rand?


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## TheSword (Sep 3, 2021)

Garthanos said:


> Yes it was the strong reaction



My hope was that you’d do the decent thing and take the 2 minutes to edit your post with spoiler tags. It was originally intended as a tongue in cheek prod.

But then when you laughed at my comment and didn’t change your post I realized that you didn’t care that people might read what you said and it spoil the story for them.

Hence my humor malfunction. Sorry if I came on strong. I just think it’s a douche move. Particularly to ignore it when it’s pointed out.


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## Parmandur (Sep 3, 2021)

In the final analysis of the series, the top POV characters are:

1. Rand al'Thor - 20.9%
2. Perrin Aybara - 12.3%
3. Egwene al;Vere - 12.1%
4. Matrim Cauthon - 11.1%
5. Elayne Trakand (who I actually didn't notice in this trailer) - 8.1%
6. Nyneave al'Meara - 6.2%

Then the percentage sinks like a rock to Moiraine Damodred & Min Farshaw getting 2% of the page count each. And a lot of these POV chapters have multiple participants, which changes the tenor for a visual, external medium.


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## Garthanos (Sep 3, 2021)

TheSword said:


> My hope was that you’d do the decent thing and take the 2 minutes to edit your post with spoiler tags. It was originally intended as a tongue in cheek prod.
> 
> But then when you laughed at my comment and didn’t change your post I realized that you didn’t care that people might read what you said and it spoil the story for them.
> 
> Hence my humor malfunction. Sorry if I came on strong. I just think it’s a douche move. Particularly to ignore it when it’s pointed out.



Cat is out of the bag but if you think going back and editing will help its pretty trivial


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## Parmandur (Sep 3, 2021)

Puddles said:


> The trailer looks cool, I’ll definitely give it a watch!
> 
> I read the first 3 books in the series (15 years ago) but recognise nothing in the trailer lol. Where’s Rand?



He's the redhead, he's all over the trailer.


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## doctorbadwolf (Sep 3, 2021)

TheSword said:


> Maybe it’s just me and people don’t have an issue with it. In the other forums/discord’s I post you’d be crucified for sharing that kind of info though.



And I avoid discussing media in those places because I don't believe that people should avoid discussing media in public spaces becuase our culture has developed novelty fetish that leads people to getting legitimately angry at others because they mentioned a plot development from a book published years ago.


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## Urriak Uruk (Sep 3, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> The Mydraal really made me jump, very cool depiction.
> 
> Who the "main character" of the Wheel of Time is super complicated, though I won't go into detail to avoid spoilers: sure, Rand is pretty darn central to the whole enterprise, but Egwene, Mat, Nyneave, Lan, and Perrin are all extremely important and have a lot happen to them over just the initial two books. A TV show doesn't have a narrative viewpoint like the book does, and even the most Rand-centric books aren't all Rand, all the time: for this season, 79% of the word count for the first book, but down to 53% of the word count for the second book. And the non-Rand characters are still important in the material originally seen through his eyes.




Oh I agree, although I definitely believe that for the first book (and mostly for the 2nd and 3rd) he's absolutely the main character that almost all the story revolves around. Beyond that it really fractures, and the author then essentially writes books entirely for specific characters (I can't remember the name, but there's one that's essentially Perrin hunting for his wife the whole book).

That said, if they shifted it so that Egwene got more of a focus, that would probably be better. Always found her more interesting than Rand, especially since she dumps him (which I still find so funny)!


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## Garthanos (Sep 3, 2021)

Puddles said:


> The trailer looks cool, I’ll definitely give it a watch!
> 
> I read the first 3 books in the series (15 years ago) but recognise nothing in the trailer lol. Where’s Rand?



They deemphasized arguably the central character from the better part of the series though it does move around from character to character.


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## Urriak Uruk (Sep 3, 2021)

TheSword said:


> My preference is not to get plot elements in a trailer to be honest. If there’s one thing that gets on my goat (other than untagged spoilers) is when trailers give too much away… which come to think of it, is kind of like a spoiler.
> 
> Totally agree with the other comments though.




I mean, I don't want all the plot details! But there should be a general gist for what the story/conflict should be in a trailer. People typically don't like jumping into a new tv show completely blind to what the plot will be.


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## Puddles (Sep 3, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> He's the redhead, he's all over the trailer.



Thanks. 


Garthanos said:


> They deemphasized arguably the central character from the better part of the series though it does move around from character to character.



Ah, I had presumed something like that happened. I guess only reading the first 3 books gave me a skewered perspective as I very much remember him being the main character.


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## Urriak Uruk (Sep 3, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> In the final analysis of the series, the top POV characters are:
> 
> 1. Rand al'Thor - 20.9%
> 2. Perrin Aybara - 12.3%
> ...




What is the breakdown of POV in the first book? I don't remember much, though I don't think Nynaeve gets a POV until like book 4 or something.


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## TheSword (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> And I avoid discussing media in those places because I don't believe that people should avoid discussing media in public spaces becuase our culture has developed novelty fetish that leads people to getting legitimately angry at others because they mentioned a plot development from a book published years ago.



Spoiler tags exist for a reason. If people want to have in depth plot discussion with spoilers then they should have spoilerpalooza thread. 

I didn’t say I was angry. I said I lost my sense of humor over it. But Garthanos has tagged it and moved on. It was nothing personal.


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## Parmandur (Sep 3, 2021)

Urriak Uruk said:


> What is the breakdown of POV in the first book? I don't remember much, though I don't think Nynaeve gets a POV until like book 4 or something.




1. Rand al'Thor - 79.5%
2. Perrin Aybara - 12.5%
3. Nyneave al'Meara - 3.7%
4. Egwene al'Vere - 3.2%

And then Morraine and Lews Therin Telemon each get a chapter that rounds out the percentage.

I found a quote from the showrunner that says they are writing this first season with the whole series in mind, so they are definitely making sure to not make it the Rand show.


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## Parmandur (Sep 3, 2021)

Puddles said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Ah, I had presumed something like that happened. I guess only reading the first 3 books gave me a skewered perspective as I very much remember him being the main character.



I suspect that they don't want to give up certain developments in the early trailers. They'll be memes soon enough, I wager.


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## Garthanos (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> And I avoid discussing media in those places because I don't believe that people should avoid discussing media in public spaces becuase our culture has developed novelty fetish that leads people to getting legitimately angry at others because they mentioned a plot development from a book published years ago.



Hell I analyse shows in the middle of them happening LOL Let alone books that are 2 decades old

That said I have a reflex humor response to "Spoilers" based on this character


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## doctorbadwolf (Sep 3, 2021)

TheSword said:


> Spoiler tags exist for a reason. If people want to have in depth plot discussion with spoilers then they should have spoilerpalooza thread.



Yeah, you're never going to convince me to not talk about how Boromir dies in Fellowship or Ned Stark dies at the end of A Game of Thrones or any other time Sean Bean is definitely going to die on screen, just because some folks expect others to facilitate their desire to encounter a story every story they ever encounter as if it had never been told before.


TheSword said:


> I didn’t say I was angry. I said I lost my sense of humor over it. But Garthanos has tagged it and moved on. It was nothing personal.



I didn't say you were either. I replied rather directly to your comment that in other spaces a person would be "crucified" for what Garth said. Such a response would be absolutely bug nuts bonkersville out of line.


----------



## MarkB (Sep 3, 2021)

Garthanos said:


> Cat is out of the bag but if you think going back and editing will help its pretty trivial



The entire thread is only 6 hours old. Plenty of people won't even have seen it yet.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Sep 3, 2021)

Garthanos said:


> Hell I analyse shows in the middle of them happening LOL Let alone books that are 2 decades old
> 
> That said I have a reflex humor response to "Spoilers" based on this character
> 
> View attachment 143210



Yeah and like, people walking about of the theater to announce to the people waiting to go in that Han gets ganked by Kylo Ren who is Ben Solo, are dumb jerks that deserve to be punched. 

Talking about it now, years later, is not in any way a bad thing, on any level. Full stop.


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Ned Stark dies at the end of A Game of Thrones



Wait, WHAT?!?

/s


----------



## Rune (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Yeah and like, people walking about of the theater to announce to the people waiting to go in that Han gets ganked by Kylo Ren who is Ben Solo, are dumb jerks that deserve to be punched.
> 
> Talking about it now, years later, is not in any way a bad thing, on any level. Full stop.



I don’t see how the first example is fundamentally different than the second. People get introduced to things at different times. Some of them weren’t even alive when they were new. 

They don’t deserve to experience the same wonder their predecessors did?


----------



## MarkB (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Yeah and like, people walking about of the theater to announce to the people waiting to go in that Han gets ganked by Kylo Ren who is Ben Solo, are dumb jerks that deserve to be punched.
> 
> Talking about it now, years later, is not in any way a bad thing, on any level. Full stop.



Not even in a thread specifically aimed at people who haven't seen it but might be contemplating doing so?


----------



## TheSword (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Yeah and like, people walking about of the theater to announce to the people waiting to go in that Han gets ganked by Kylo Ren who is Ben Solo, are dumb jerks that deserve to be punched.
> 
> Talking about it now, years later, is not in any way a bad thing, on any level. Full stop.



It seems to be a very strange thing to say when we were only recently discussing in the previous thread on WOT that tons of people don’t know much about or have only read a few books out of the series.

If there ever was an IP that’s been out for a long time and fantasy fans still might not know it’s this one.


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 3, 2021)

TheSword said:


> It seems to be a very strange thing to say when we were only recently discussing in the previous thread on WOT that tons of people don’t know much about or have only read a few books out of the series.
> 
> If there ever was an IP that’s been out for a long time and fantasy fans still might not know it’s this one.



I mean, it is one of the most widely read fantasy novel series ever. Still, I'm personally choosing to be circumspect about plot elements insofar as I can be, but it's not unreasonable to be fairly loose with plot elements to books that are older than the average D&D player.


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 3, 2021)

Rune said:


> I don’t see how the first example is fundamentally different than the second. People get introduced to things at different times. Some of them weren’t even alive when they were new.
> 
> They don’t deserve to experience the same wonder their predecessors did?



The biggest twist of the first novel is spoiled in the pull quote if you Google "Rand al'Thor." Which I bet a few people who haven't read the books are likely to do before they finish the first half of this shoe. It's a different world than in 1990.


----------



## TheSword (Sep 3, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> I mean, it is one of the most widely read fantasy novel series ever. Still, I'm personally choosing to be circumspect about plot elements insofar as I can be, but it's not unreasonable to be fairly loose with plot elements to books that are older than the average D&D player.



I think that’s my approach. Talk about or allude to things without throwing open your overcoat and waving your third-season-finale-tallywacker in everyone’s face.


----------



## TheSword (Sep 3, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> The biggest twist of the first novel is spoiled in the pull quote if you Google "Rand al'Thor." Which I bet a few people who haven't read the books are likely to do before they finish the first half of this shoe. It's a different world than in 1990.



I learned early, not to google anything regarding an already released series/TV show/book.

Ideally don’t read the news either the day after an episode is released, when you have it saved on sky plus


----------



## Garthanos (Sep 3, 2021)

Anyone played games inspired by Wheel of Time? The first one I ran into was Wheel of Time Quake it was a custom fan homage to Wheel of Time with asha'man with flaming swords and healer lightning tossing Ae Sedai... it had to change its name to Fantasy Quake but it was  always WoT Quake to me

I also purchased the d20 Wheel of Time book

And played the official WoT game that came out shortly after WoT quake was forced to change its name.


----------



## Gradine (Sep 3, 2021)

I mean, especially if there are people specifically asking people to hide spoilers in the thread, then just... don't. 

There's always people who are new. When FF7 Remake was coming out people started getting a lot more circumspect about who dies and when, which had previously been one of the most openly discussed spoiler in video games. 

Wheel of Time is also, infamously, a series a lot of people don't finish. 

Don't be a jerk


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 3, 2021)

Gradine said:


> Don't be a jerk



Solid life advice.


----------



## Garthanos (Sep 3, 2021)

A remembrance from WoT Quake in team mode, being someone who tossed erratic lightning which hurt allies kind of made being a healer too very handy.


----------



## pming (Sep 3, 2021)

Hiya!


Garthanos said:


> Anyone played games inspired by Wheel of Time?



Yes. The "Wheel of Time" that was using the Unreal Engine back in the late 90's ( The Wheel of Time (video game) - Wikipedia )

I enjoyed it quite a bit, iirc!  I might have to dig it out and play it again just for funzies! 

^_^

Paul L. Ming


----------



## Garthanos (Sep 3, 2021)

pming said:


> Hiya!
> 
> Yes. The "Wheel of Time" that was using the Unreal Engine back in the late 90's ( The Wheel of Time (video game) - Wikipedia )
> 
> ...



Unreal was a high end engine for its day


----------



## pming (Sep 3, 2021)

Hiya!


Garthanos said:


> Unreal was a high end engine for its day




News Flash: Unreal is STILL a high end engine...actually, I'd probably put it at THE high end engine.
Unreal Engine 5 is the latest incarnation: 
And if you want a little more "techical" info: 
^_^

Paul L. Ming


----------



## Rune (Sep 3, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> The biggest twist of the first novel is spoiled in the pull quote if you Google "Rand al'Thor." Which I bet a few people who haven't read the books are likely to do before they finish the first half of this shoe. It's a different world than in 1990.



Huh. I don’t even remember that there _was_ a twist in the first novel.


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 3, 2021)

Rune said:


> Huh. I don’t even remember that there _was_ a twist in the first novel.



I mean, it's not too hard to see coming, but it sure as heck surprises Rand. And like much of the Wheel of Time, it's about the journey of discovery inside the characters shoes more than the destination.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Sep 3, 2021)

Urriak Uruk said:


> Only thing that really stood out to me much as a fan is that they seemed to highlight Egwene more than Ran (who I thought was supposed to be the main character!) and that the Myrdraal seemed like a very good depiction (creepy mouth!)



What seems to be going on there, and with the focus of Moraine as the lead, is that they are trying to maintain the mystery, for those who haven't read the books, of exactly which of the Emonds Field characters is actually going to be the main character (and the baggage that comes with it)...


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Sep 3, 2021)

By the way, the YouTube comment section is sprinkled with unintentionally hilarious (and awful) remarks by obvious trolls and bots stating that they've "read the books" and then go on to complain about things they assume are changes made by the production but are, actually, features of the books themselves.


----------



## Garthanos (Sep 3, 2021)

pming said:


> Hiya!
> 
> 
> News Flash: Unreal is STILL a high end engine...actually, I'd probably put it at THE high end engine.
> ...



Beautiful now I want a new Wheel of Time game


----------



## Zaukrie (Sep 3, 2021)

If the books were half as exciting as the trailer, I might have finished the series.....


----------



## FitzTheRuke (Sep 3, 2021)

I couldn't get past the first book, but I will absolutely give this a try. Here's hoping the main characters aren't a bunch of whiners and the female characters are better written.


----------



## MGibster (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I’m just at a loss as to what in the trailer is “generic”. I mean...the characters are human and there is magic? That's....about it.



I think just about every fantasy trailer I've seen has looked "generic."  I can't fault WoT for that.


Rune said:


> My most vivid memory is that there were a stretch of three books where nothing really happened. In one of them, _literally_ nothing happened until the last few pages.



In one of the books Elayne took a bath.  That's all I can remember about it.  But I'm hoping things go a lot quicker in the streaming series than they do in the books.


Garthanos said:


> Beautiful now I want a new Wheel of Time game



::Remembering the d20 version:: Be careful what you wish for!


----------



## Garthanos (Sep 3, 2021)

MGibster said:


> I think just about every fantasy trailer I've seen has looked "generic."  I can't fault WoT for that.
> 
> In one of the books Elayne took a bath.  That's all I can remember about it.  But I'm hoping things go a lot quicker in the streaming series than they do in the books.
> 
> ::Remembering the d20 version:: Be careful what you wish for!



I bought the d20 book... I mean they tried, but no I  never used... I was thinking an Unreal Engine based product


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Sep 3, 2021)

Rune said:


> I don’t see how the first example is fundamentally different than the second.



You don’t? Seriously? 


Rune said:


> People get introduced to things at different times. Some of them weren’t even alive when they were new.
> 
> They don’t deserve to experience the same wonder their predecessors did?



What’s “deserve” got to do with it? Do people not “deserve” to be able to fully discuss art in public spaces?  

I mean, no one in this thread has gone full “telling me it’s exciting is a spoiler” about it, but the whole mindset is just really…stifling. 


MarkB said:


> Not even in a thread specifically aimed at people who haven't seen it but might be contemplating doing so?



Why? Oh hey some of the main cast in Battlestar Gallactica are secretly robots, you guys! I mean come on. 


TheSword said:


> I think that’s my approach. Talk about or allude to things without throwing open your overcoat and waving your third-season-finale-tallywacker in everyone’s face.



This really seems like an appropriate comparison, to you? _Really!?_ 

Talking about one of the most widely read fantasy series ever in an open manner is comperable to waving ones junk in strangers’ faces, to you? You don’t think that maybe the perspective is a bit off, there?


----------



## Urriak Uruk (Sep 3, 2021)

Demetrios1453 said:


> What seems to be going on there, and with the focus of Moraine as the lead, is that they are trying to maintain the mystery, for those who haven't read the books, of exactly which of the Emonds Field characters is actually going to be the main character (and the baggage that comes with it)...




This is actually fair, if it's what they're going for. It's also something that the book did a terrible job of hiding.

"What, you mean the character with 75% of the POV chapters who is having weird visions is the Chosen One? What a shocking twist!"


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 3, 2021)

Urriak Uruk said:


> This is actually fair, if it's what they're going for. It's also something that the book did a terrible job of hiding.
> 
> "What, you mean the character with 75% of the POV chapters who is having weird visions is the Chosen One? What a shocking twist!"



Rand al'Thor 



Spoiler: IS



is the Muad'Dib


----------



## Urriak Uruk (Sep 3, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> 1. Rand al'Thor - 79.5%
> 2. Perrin Aybara - 12.5%
> 3. Nyneave al'Meara - 3.7%
> 4. Egwene al'Vere - 3.2%
> ...




Huh, Nynaeve got POV in the first book? I didn't remember that, although she's _easily _the best female character in the series (at least early in the series). The dichotomy of being a bossy nanny who finds herself being bossed around quite suddenly is actually very fun, and she's one of the most assertive characters.

Tugs braid furiously!


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 3, 2021)

Though I don't think that Jordan was really trying to surprise any readers, just provide a plausible first person narrative of self-discovery.


----------



## Urriak Uruk (Sep 3, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> I mean, it is one of the most widely read fantasy novel series ever. Still, I'm personally choosing to be circumspect about plot elements insofar as I can be, but it's not unreasonable to be fairly loose with plot elements to books that are older than the average D&D player.




I'd love to see a stat on how many start the series vs. read the whole thing. It starts of strong, and get progressively more writer indulgent. I couldn't finish it myself, even though I got like 7 books in.


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 3, 2021)

Urriak Uruk said:


> Huh, Nynaeve got POV in the first book? I didn't remember that, although she's _easily _the best female character in the series (at least early in the series). The dichotomy of being a bossy nanny who finds herself being bossed around quite suddenly is actually very fun, and she's one of the most assertive characters.
> 
> Tugs braid furiously!



Yeah, not only did she get some chapters, the switch in tone was actually my first clue that, A. Jordan was a master of first person narrative, and B. Maybe Rand was an unreliable narrator (along with every other POV character).


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 3, 2021)

Urriak Uruk said:


> I'd love to see a stat on how many start the series vs. read the whole thing. It starts of strong, and get progressively more writer indulgent. I couldn't finish it myself, even though I got like 7 books in.



The last books sold an awful lot of copies, though I'm sure the number who didn't finish is staggering.


----------



## Rune (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> You don’t? Seriously?
> 
> What’s “deserve” got to do with it? Do people not “deserve” to be able to fully discuss art in public spaces?
> 
> ...



Sometimes the turn is important to the work.

For example, there is a classic novel whose final four words are (in my estimation) among the most potent four words in literature. They carry the weight of the whole novel. But only if you don’t see them coming.

I’d tell you what that book is, but I’m concerned that you might go around ruining it for people, since it isn’t a concern of yours. It’s a fairly old book, after all.


----------



## TheSword (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> What’s “deserve” got to do with it? Do people not “deserve” to be able to fully discuss art in public spaces?
> 
> I mean, no one in this thread has gone full “telling me it’s exciting is a spoiler” about it, but the whole mindset is just really…stifling.



You can have both, though. It’s possible for you to fully enjoy discussing something while warning people that what they are about to read may spoil surprises. There are some truly surprising twists in films, TV and books that are a pleasure to experience. Why would you want to stop people being able to enjoy that when there is an easy and simple solution. Give people the fair warning. 


doctorbadwolf said:


> This really seems like an appropriate comparison, to you? _Really!?_
> 
> Talking about one of the most widely read fantasy series ever in an open manner is comperable to waving ones junk in strangers’ faces, to you? You don’t think that maybe the perspective is a bit off, there?



In so far as you’re taking away people choice not to see something in order to prioritize your own enjoyment in a very blatant and overt way. Then yes I think it’s a great comparison. Is it as serious? Of course not. But the principles the same.

I’m genuinely surprised at how unrepentant you are about spoilers. You always struck me as pretty empathic before. I can’t tell if you just woke up on the wrong side of the wrong side of the bed, or if you genuinely believe it’s cool to carelessly toss spoilers into an unrelated conversation for the fun of it/to assert yourself.


----------



## TheSword (Sep 3, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> The last books sold an awful lot of copies, though I'm sure the number who didn't finish is staggering.



I don’t think that is a terrible problem per se. Each book does stand in its own right… aside from maybe some of the third quarter of them.

It’s a bit like being able to enjoy the first three seasons of West Wing and losing interest at seasons 4 and 5. It doesn’t stop the first three being great TV shows. If you stick with it though (not a terrible chore but I guess there is a lot of TV out there) you get to see how great seasons 6 and 7, and thus the whole series, ends.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Sep 3, 2021)

Urriak Uruk said:


> This is actually fair, if it's what they're going for. It's also something that the book did a terrible job of hiding.
> 
> "What, you mean the character with 75% of the POV chapters who is having weird visions is the Chosen One? What a shocking twist!"



It would definitely be easier to do so in a TV series compared to a book that has POV narration (instead of complete omniscient 3rd person narrator). I'm guessing (if this is their plan), howerver, that at best it will be hidden in plain sight, but I'm also guessing there will be those who will miss the clues completely until the moment of the big reveal.


----------



## Azuresun (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Talking about one of the most widely read fantasy series ever in an open manner is comperable to waving ones junk in strangers’ faces, to you? You don’t think that maybe the perspective is a bit off, there?




You know, with all the time you've spent furiously justifying spoilers, you could have gone back clicked "edit" and added [ spoiler ] [ /spoiler ] about fifty times over by now.


----------



## Garthanos (Sep 3, 2021)

Azuresun said:


> You know, with all the time you've spent furiously justifying spoilers, you could have gone back clicked "edit" and added [ spoiler ] [ /spoiler ] about fifty times over by now.



LOL which spoiler do you think he made? hint, hint


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 3, 2021)

I like most of the casting, except for Perrin.  The actor they got for Perrin isn't anywhere near big or muscular enough to represent what Perrin was in the books.  Perrin had an 18/00 strength or better and was very broad.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 3, 2021)

In what book did Elaida enter the scene?  I don't see her in the cast.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 3, 2021)

Urriak Uruk said:


> Huh, Nynaeve got POV in the first book? I didn't remember that, although she's _easily _the best female character in the series (at least early in the series). The dichotomy of being a bossy nanny who finds herself being bossed around quite suddenly is actually very fun, and she's one of the most assertive characters.
> 
> Tugs braid furiously!



Moiraine was always my favorite.  Nynaeve was second.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 3, 2021)

Urriak Uruk said:


> I'd love to see a stat on how many start the series vs. read the whole thing. It starts of strong, and get progressively more writer indulgent. I couldn't finish it myself, even though I got like 7 books in.



That was the end or close to the end of where it bogged down.  It becomes good again and that rises to very good when Sanderson takes over.


----------



## TheSword (Sep 3, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> In what book did Elaida enter the scene?  I don't see her in the cast.



Elanda was in book one, the Caemlyn scenes. Though as Elayne isn’t cast in series one, I think this will be 20% of book one that gets pushed back to series two - which makes a lot of sense as it’s a whole slew of characters who are only in it for one chapter then we don’t see again for ages.

apparently series one will be 80% of book one, some of book two and then a couple of bits from book 3.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 3, 2021)

TheSword said:


> Elanda was in book one, the Caemlyn scenes. Though as Elayne isn’t cast in series one, I think this will be 20% of book one that gets pushed back to series two - which makes a lot of sense as it’s a whole slew of characters who are only in it for one chapter then we don’t see again for ages.
> 
> apparently series one will be 80% of book one, some of book two and then a couple of bits from book 3.



Basil Gil is, though, and I thought that the castle encounter happened at the same time.  Hmm.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Sep 3, 2021)

TheSword said:


> I’m genuinely surprised at how unrepentant you are about spoilers. You always struck me as pretty empathic before. I can’t tell if you just woke up on the wrong side of the wrong side of the bed, or if you genuinely believe it’s cool to carelessly toss spoilers into an unrelated conversation for the fun of it/to assert yourself.



“Unrepentant” requires that spoilers be ethically wrong. They aren’t. The assumed motivations here also assume things about the topic which I strongly disagree with. 


Azuresun said:


> You know, with all the time you've spent furiously justifying spoilers, you could have gone back clicked "edit" and added [ spoiler ] [ /spoiler ] about fifty times over by now.



I don’t have anything to put in spoiler tags. I wasn’t the person that spoiled a thing, starting this argument.


----------



## TheSword (Sep 3, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> Basil Gil is, though, and I thought that the castle encounter happened at the same time.  Hmm.



It does. That’s also where Loial makes his entrance. So a pretty crucial piece. I think they may save Elayne for the white Tower. Not sure what bits they might pull forward. Plus there seems to be a whole Logain piece that looks to have been added.

There’s still lots to keep fans guessing.


----------



## TheSword (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> “Unrepentant” requires that spoilers be ethically wrong. They aren’t. The assumed motivations here also assume things about the topic which I strongly disagree with.



Not ethically wrong. Just selfish and rude.


doctorbadwolf said:


> I don’t have anything to put in spoiler tags. I wasn’t the person that spoiled a thing, starting this argument.



Well you did share spoilers for several things… Starwars, Battlestar Gallactica, Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings... just not related to Wheel of Time. Hence my claim you doing it either to make a joke or make a point. I’m not sure why else you would have said those things?  

@Gradine said it best. This all falls under that category of “don’t be a jerk.”


----------



## Marc_C (Sep 3, 2021)

Quit on this after three books. Not enough good ideas. Too long winded. I have Prime so I'll look at it. Hopefully the series writers condensed everything into something more dynamic.


----------



## TheSword (Sep 3, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> Quit on this after three books. Not enough good ideas. Too long winded. I have Prime so I'll look at it. Hopefully the series writers condensed everything into something more dynamic.



14 books down into 7 seasons. I don’t see how they can not.

I reckon the first four or five books might be done over 3 seasons and then everything else over the rest as the first books are definitely more action packed.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 3, 2021)

TheSword said:


> 14 books down into 7 seasons. I don’t see how they can not.
> 
> I reckon the first four or five books might be done over 3 seasons and then everything else over the rest as the first books are definitely more action packed.



Both ends of the series are.  It's the middle that bogged down.  More started happening a book or so before Sanderson took over and during his books.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Sep 3, 2021)

TheSword said:


> Not ethically wrong. Just selfish and rude.



Same thing, afaic.


TheSword said:


> Well you did share spoilers for several things… Starwars, Battlestar Gallactica, Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings... just not related to Wheel of Time. Hence my claim you doing it either to make a joke or make a point. I’m not sure why else you would have said those things?



“Make a point” and “assert yourself” are _very_ different motivations.


TheSword said:


> @Gradine said it best. This all falls under that category of “don’t be a jerk.”



And I disagree.


----------



## Gradine (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> And I disagree.



It's okay to be wrong.

People have asked there to be no spoilers. Continuing to spoil in spite of them = being a jerk.

And being a jerk sucks.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Sep 3, 2021)

Gradine said:


> It's okay to be wrong.
> 
> People have asked there to be no spoilers. Continuing to spoil in spite of them = being a jerk.
> 
> And being a jerk sucks.



Not every ask is reasonable. Someone referred to me talking about Vader’s reveal in Empire as a spoiler! That is completely out of alignment with reality. It’s a nearly 50 year old movie! 

WoT isn’t quite that venerable, sure, but it ain’t new and it’s one of the most critically acclaimed and widely read fantasy properties out there. Discussing it without worrying about spoilers is _normal social behavior. _


----------



## MarkB (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Not every ask is reasonable. Someone referred to me talking about Vader’s reveal in Empire as a spoiler! That is completely out of alignment with reality. It’s a nearly 50 year old movie!
> 
> WoT isn’t quite that venerable, sure, but it ain’t new and it’s one of the most critically acclaimed and widely read fantasy properties out there. Discussing it without worrying about spoilers is _normal social behavior. _



Making an exception in a thread that was asking people new to the series to weigh in with their opinion would be reasonable though, would it not?


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Not every ask is reasonable. Someone referred to me talking about Vader’s reveal in Empire as a spoiler! That is completely out of alignment with reality. It’s a nearly 50 year old movie!
> 
> WoT isn’t quite that venerable, sure, but it ain’t new and it’s one of the most critically acclaimed and widely read fantasy properties out there. Discussing it without worrying about spoilers is _normal social behavior. _



There's a rather large difference between an enormously popular movie/t.v/toy/game franchise that his been front and center in society for decades, and a book series that would only really be known to many people who like reading fantasy books, a good percentage of whom never finished the series.  They aren't even close to being in the same league.

My take on this discussion.

1. Not really a spoiler to talk about the Vader reveal.
2. It is a spoiler to talk about reveals in the Wheel of Time.
3. If people have asked in a non-spoiler thread not to have Wheel of Time reveals spoiled, it's kinda jerkish to continue to spoil things.  You can start a spoiler thread to discuss the series in more detail.


----------



## TheSword (Sep 3, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> There's a rather large difference between an enormously popular movie/t.v/toy/game franchise that his been front and center in society for decades, and a book series that would only really be known to many people who like reading fantasy books, a good percentage of whom never finished the series.  They aren't even close to being in the same league.
> 
> My take on this discussion.
> 
> ...



Happy to enjoy a spoiler thread elsewhere. I love talking about Wheel of Time. If people hadn’t noticed. 

There is a lot to be said about the many _moments of awesome_ in WOT and how they might be adapted to the screen.


----------



## Gradine (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Not every ask is reasonable. Someone referred to me talking about Vader’s reveal in Empire as a spoiler! That is completely out of alignment with reality. It’s a nearly 50 year old movie!
> 
> WoT isn’t quite that venerable, sure, but it ain’t new and it’s one of the most critically acclaimed and widely read fantasy properties out there. Discussing it without worrying about spoilers is _normal social behavior. _



Except that there's a new adaptation of it that is attempting to bring new people to the property, and this is a thread about that adaptation, where people are talking about how they've never read/finished the books but are interested in the show, and those same people are demonstrating they are upset at unmarked spoilers in this thread. 

You are on the wrong side of this.


----------



## Rune (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Not every ask is reasonable. Someone referred to me talking about Vader’s reveal in Empire as a spoiler! That is completely out of alignment with reality. It’s a nearly 50 year old movie!




For my rebuttal to this ridiculously untenable stance, see my previous posts.



doctorbadwolf said:


> WoT isn’t quite that venerable, sure, but it ain’t new and it’s one of the most critically acclaimed and widely read fantasy properties out there. Discussing it without worrying about spoilers is _normal social behavior. _



My rule of thumb is simple: 

Willfully ignoring people’s desire not to be caused distress by your actions _toward_ them is profoundly disrespectful. (As are all forms of social domination.) Because, you see, you’re taking away their agency in the matter. Defaulting to disrespect might be normal social behavior, but it sure isn’t _right_. Morally speaking. 

I mean, I _personally_ don’t like using the ignore function on these boards because I believe everyone who engages in sincere discussion has _something_ to say that is worth listening to. And the ignore feature kind of throws the baby out with the bathwater. 

But if your stance is effectively, “People who don’t want old things spoiled should go out of their way to make sure they can’t see my posts,” I guess I’d have to recommend that they do just that. 

Unfortunately, given the cavalierly casual penchant you’ve displayed for throwing spoilers around without warning, the damage is likely to be done before they know to do so.


----------



## TheSword (Sep 3, 2021)

In fairness to @doctorbadwolf I’m making a stink about it but have read the books 7 times over.

That said, I created the thread to discuss with people who hadn’t read the books or had only read part to see how they reacted to the trailer. So I think everything you said still stands.


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 3, 2021)

TheSword said:


> Elanda was in book one, the Caemlyn scenes. Though as Elayne isn’t cast in series one, I think this will be 20% of book one that gets pushed back to series two - which makes a lot of sense as it’s a whole slew of characters who are only in it for one chapter then we don’t see again for ages.
> 
> apparently series one will be 80% of book one, some of book two and then a couple of bits from book 3.



Yeah, there's some creative restructuring going on...but it seems very smart and well thought out from a position of understanding, so I'm on board.


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 3, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> Basil Gil is, though, and I thought that the castle encounter happened at the same time.  Hmm.



Some creative shuffling occurring here.


----------



## TheSword (Sep 3, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> Yeah, there's some creative restructuring going on...but it seems very smart and well thought out from a position of understanding, so I'm on board.



The fan response in the YouTube [Edit] comments has been overwhelmingly positive, which pleasantly surprised me for such a established series. The lone voices complaining about diversity (in 2021 ) are overwhelmed by a wave of optimism.

[Edit. I meant YouTube… Twitter is the cesspit it usually is!]


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 3, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> Yeah, there's some creative restructuring going on...but it seems very smart and well thought out from a position of understanding, so I'm on board.



Yeah.  If Basil and Loial are present, but Elayne and Elaida are not, something is significantly different.  The encounter with Elaida was pretty significant, too.

I'm still going to watch it.  A guy I played D&D with for many years helped make this series happen, so even if I didn't want to watch it(and I do), I'd watch it in support.


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 3, 2021)

TheSword said:


> The fan response in the YouTube [Edit] comments has been overwhelmingly positive, which pleasantly surprised me for such a established series. The lone voices complaining about diversity (in 2021 ) are overwhelmed by a wave of optimism.
> 
> [Edit. I meant YouTube… Twitter is the cesspit it usually is!]



Beyond just eyerolling about 2021...the books have extensive cultural and ethnic diversity, and a colorblind approach to casting is entirely reasonable to the source material.


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 3, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> Yeah.  If Basil and Loial are present, but Elayne and Elaida are not, something is significantly different.  The encounter with Elaida was pretty significant, too.
> 
> I'm still going to watch it.  A guy I played D&D with for many years helped make this series happen, so even if I didn't want to watch it(and I do), I'd watch it in support.



The showrunner has hinted that Elayne is coming in Season 2, so it seems probable that they just shifted her introduction forwards to be closer to her broader narrative position.


----------



## TheSword (Sep 3, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> Beyond just eyerolling about 2021...the books have extensive cultural and ethnic diversity, and a colorblind approach to casting is entirely reasonable to the source material.



Absolutely.

The best comment i saw was someone noting the irony of casting worst dad ever - Roose Bolton -  as best dad ever, Tam Al’Thor!


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Sep 3, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Making an exception in a thread that was asking people new to the series to weigh in with their opinion would be reasonable though, would it not?



If the title or OP has a clear "no spoilers" tag/request, sure. IMO such a thing can't just be implied and expect people to feel beholden to...an implication that it'd be reasonable to request a thing.


Maxperson said:


> There's a rather large difference between an enormously popular movie/t.v/toy/game franchise that his been front and center in society for decades, and a book series that would only really be known to many people who like reading fantasy books, a good percentage of whom never finished the series.  They aren't even close to being in the same league.



They're both old and well known. Hell, the star wars one is at least a surprise in the film. The Rand thing is...completely obvious. Anyone reading the books knew as soon as the character's relationship to the thing he eventually did the thing to was made clear...in the first book...knew that it was going to happen. It would literally be a gigantic "checkov's gun" writing problem if that didn't happen. This is like getting mad that I say that the good guys win in [given non-gritty fantasy property with a rep for classic good vs evil narrative]. (and also, I didn't spoil anything)


Maxperson said:


> My take on this discussion.
> 
> 1. Not really a spoiler to talk about the Vader reveal.
> 2. It is a spoiler to talk about reveals in the Wheel of Time.
> 3. If people have asked in a non-spoiler thread not to have Wheel of Time reveals spoiled, it's kinda jerkish to continue to spoil things.  You can start a spoiler thread to discuss the series in more detail.



Okay, show where I have "continued to spoil things" about WoT in this thread.


Gradine said:


> Except that there's a new adaptation of it that is attempting to bring new people to the property, and this is a thread about that adaptation, where people are talking about how they've never read/finished the books but are interested in the show, and those same people are demonstrating they are upset at unmarked spoilers in this thread.



Okay. Have I spoiled any elements of the show _at all_ in this thread? I mean I guess I took part in an exchance about what Rand's dad looks like, which "spoils" that the old guy is Rand's dad, but I'm not gonna take seriously any claim that this is an actual spoiler.


Gradine said:


> You are on the wrong side of this.



No, I'm not.


Rune said:


> For my rebuttal to this ridiculously untenable stance, see my previous posts.
> 
> 
> My rule of thumb is simple:
> ...



It isn't a form of social domination. It's having a normal discussion about a topic where no request for no spoilers has been made. The OP had no "no spoilers" tag, and I've spoiled absolutely nothing about WoT in this thread. Garth did a spoiler on a major (but incredibly obvious and basically inevitable) plot development, and edited his post when asked to. Since that interaction, I've mentioned fewer details of the plot of the story than some of the people who have tried to chastise me for my stance in this thread! 

And you comment above on agency is such absolute rubbish I can't even meaningfully engage with it. What utter nonsense.


Rune said:


> But if your stance is effectively, “People who don’t want old things spoiled should go out of their way to make sure they can’t see my posts,” I guess I’d have to recommend that they do just that.



Good thing it isn't.


Rune said:


> Unfortunately, given the cavalierly casual penchant you’ve displayed for throwing spoilers around without warning, the damage is likely to be done before they know to do so.



Feel free to show what spoilers I've thrown around casually without warning.


TheSword said:


> The fan response in the YouTube [Edit] comments has been overwhelmingly positive, which pleasantly surprised me for such a established series. The lone voices complaining about diversity (in 2021 ) are overwhelmed by a wave of optimism.
> 
> [Edit. I meant YouTube… Twitter is the cesspit it usually is!]



Most of what I've seen on twitter has been positive, as well, but that might be that I'm not super deep in the fandom twitter space.


Maxperson said:


> Yeah.  If Basil and Loial are present, but Elayne and Elaida are not, something is significantly different.  The encounter with Elaida was pretty significant, too.



Yeah it worries me a tiny bit, but I'm hopeful that it will be fine. The only thing I've disliked so far of what we've seen are the swords. They're generic katanas, instead of the unique and very distinctive blades of thebooks, which very much have a canon appearance, and have been forged in real life and gained author approval of the look.


TheSword said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> The best comment i saw was someone noting the irony of casting worst dad ever - Roose Bolton -  as best dad ever, Tam Al’Thor!



To be fair, as Dan Casey put it in his trailer breakdown, that guy hates telling his son _anything! _


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Sep 3, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> Basil Gil is, though, and I thought that the castle encounter happened at the same time. Hmm.



Either they're moving him to Tar Valon, or they'll show the palace visit in flashback.


----------



## TheSword (Sep 3, 2021)

Fixed the title.


----------



## Urriak Uruk (Sep 3, 2021)

TheSword said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> The best comment i saw was someone noting the irony of casting worst dad ever - Roose Bolton -  as best dad ever, Tam Al’Thor!




Now, what I really want to know is who they're casting for the Forsaken...


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Sep 3, 2021)

TheSword said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> The best comment i saw was someone noting the irony of casting worst dad ever - Roose Bolton - as best dad ever, Tam Al’Thor!



I was loving the comments by people who _said_ they had read the books, stating they were upset that the production team had obviously changed things since there was just too much female empowerment in the trailer. Yeah, that's an admission you definitely _didn't_ read the books...


----------



## TheSword (Sep 3, 2021)

Urriak Uruk said:


> Now, what I really want to know is who they're casting for the Forsaken...
> 
> View attachment 143247



There is a cryptic reference from Rafe Judkins who when asked if the Forsaken would be seen in season one, replied “It depends how well you know the forsaken.” I think we could see some big names in those big (but cameo) roles.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Sep 3, 2021)

TheSword said:


> There is a cryptic reference from Rafe Judkins who when asked if the Forsaken would be seen in season one, replied “It depends how well you know the forsaken.” I think we could see some big names in those big (but cameo) roles.



Hmm... there are a couple of Forsaken who could pop up in disguise, especially with the added focus on the Aes Sedai...


----------



## Rune (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Feel free to show what spoilers I've thrown around casually without warning.




In this thread alone:


Spoiler






doctorbadwolf said:


> Yeah, you're never going to convince me to not talk about how Boromir dies in Fellowship or Ned Stark dies at the end of A Game of Thrones or any other time Sean Bean is definitely going to die on screen, just because some folks expect others to facilitate their desire to encounter a story every story they ever encounter as if it had never been told before.






			
				doctorbadwolf said:
			
		

> Yeah and like, people walking about of the theater to announce to the people waiting to go in that Han gets ganked by Kylo Ren who is Ben Solo, are dumb jerks that deserve to be punched.






			
				doctorbadwolf said:
			
		

> Why? Oh hey some of the main cast in Battlestar Gallactica are secretly robots, you guys! I mean come on.







I get that you believe this is no big deal for other people, but _you don’t get to decide that on behalf other people! _If you insist on doing so anyway, _especially in a manner that can’t be preemptively mitigated_, you _are_ doing so at the expense of other people’s agency.

And if you still don’t recognize that, I’ll have to ask: _how would a complete stranger possibly have a chance to prevent you from spoiling some piece of old media that hasn’t even come up in conversation? _

Note that _none_ of the things you spoiled in the excerpts above had come up in _this_ conversation by the time you spoiled them.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> They're both old and well known. Hell, the star wars one is at least a surprise in the film. The Rand thing is...completely obvious. Anyone reading the books knew as soon as the character's relationship to the thing he eventually did the thing to was made clear...in the first book...knew that it was going to happen. It would literally be a gigantic "checkov's gun" writing problem if that didn't happen. This is like getting mad that I say that the good guys win in [given non-gritty fantasy property with a rep for classic good vs evil narrative]. (and also, I didn't spoil anything)



No.  I know many gamers and book readers who have not read Wheel of Time.  They know about it, but that's it.  It isn't nearly as well known as Star Wars.


doctorbadwolf said:


> Okay, show where I have "continued to spoil things" about WoT in this thread.



I didn't say you did.  @Gradine pointed out that it was jerkish behavior.  I was simply stating that I agreed with him on this.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 3, 2021)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Either they're moving him to Tar Valon,* or they'll show the palace visit in flashback.*



That's a good point.


----------



## Urriak Uruk (Sep 3, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> No.  I know many gamers and book readers who have not read Wheel of Time.  They know about it, but that's it.  It isn't nearly as well known as Star Wars.
> 
> I didn't say you did.  @Gradine pointed out that it was jerkish behavior.  I was simply stating that I agreed with him on this.




I'm someone who read like 7 of these books, and gave up... even I don't know how this series ends, and I've got to be 98% more familiar with the series than everyone with Amazon Prime.


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 3, 2021)

Urriak Uruk said:


> I'm someone who read like 7 of these books, and gave up... even I don't know how this series ends, and I've got to be 98% more familiar with the series than everyone with Amazon Prime.



Well, books 12 and 13 sold a combined 12 million copies in North America between 2009-2013 (when the final 14th book came out), which Brandon Sanderson's agent apparently let slip. Certainly it's not on the level of Star Wars or Lord of the Rings, but that's a sizeable fanbase that stuck through the whole series (the sales for the first book dwarf that,  to be sure, the drop off is also pretty huge).

The audio books are also apparently extremely good, and a bestseller for Audible, so the Wheel of Time fanbase also probably has a hig Venn diagram overlap with people bought into Amazon's ecosystem.


----------



## Urriak Uruk (Sep 3, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> Well, books 12 and 13 sold a combined 12 million copies in North America between 2009-2013 (when the final 14th book came out), which Brandon Sanderson's agent apparently let slip. Certainly it's not on the level of Star Wars or Lord of the Rings, but that's a sizeable fanbase that stuck through the whole series (the sales for the first book dwarf that,  to be sure, the drop off is also pretty huge).
> 
> The audio books are also apparently extremely good, and a bestseller for Audible, so the Wheel of Time fanbase also probably has a hig Venn diagram overlap with people bought into Amazon's ecosystem.




Amazon Prime has about 200 million subscribes. If the Venn diagram is more than 5%, I'd be pretty surprised.

Not dishing the books, just saying that compared to all viewers of media, the readership is quite small. Compared to other fantasy series it's quite big, but that's neither here nor there.


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 3, 2021)

Urriak Uruk said:


> Amazon Prime has about 200 million subscribes. If the Venn diagram is more than 5%, I'd be pretty surprised.
> 
> Not dishing the books, just saying that compared to all viewers of media, the readership is quite small. Compared to other fantasy series it's quite big, but that's neither here nor there.



No, I get where you are coming from. My apologies of that wasncleae, I meant that a significant percentage of the engaged Wheel of Time fanbase are probably existing Amazon customers, and Prime originals are all about keeping people in their overall ecosystem. My sister is getting Amazon Prime this November just to get the Wheel of Time show.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Sep 3, 2021)

Rune said:


> In this thread alone:
> 
> I get that you believe this is no big deal for other people, but _you don’t get to decide that on behalf other people! _If you insist on doing so anyway, _especially in a manner that can’t be preemptively mitigated_, you _are_ doing so at the expense of other people’s agency.
> 
> ...



Common knowledge is not spoilers. Full stop. Any expectation to avoid mentioning any of those without warning is 100% out of line.  

And again, you’ve provided no support for the truly astonishingly weird claim that this intersects meaningfully with the agency of people participating in public* forum discussions. It does not. No one’s agency is interfered with by even the most egregious spoilers, and the spoiler that started this debate was not especially egregious. 

*no, the distinction of technical public status vs “open to the public and public facing” does not change any of this, so please don’t anyone derail the discussion with a nitpick about this website being privately owned?


----------



## Rune (Sep 3, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Common knowledge is not spoilers. Full stop. Any expectation to avoid mentioning any of those without warning is 100% out of line.
> 
> And again, you’ve provided no support for the truly astonishingly weird claim that this intersects meaningfully with the agency of people participating in public* forum discussions. It does not. No one’s agency is interfered with by even the most egregious spoilers, and the spoiler that started this debate was not especially egregious.
> 
> *no, the distinction of technical public status vs “open to the public and public facing” does not change any of this, so please don’t anyone derail the discussion with a nitpick about this website being privately owned?



Alright, let me try a different approach. 

Since common knowledge does not equal universal knowledge, and since _I_ can’t unread words of yours that I might unwittingly read, would you kindly, pretty please, use spoiler tags on these boards when you mention things that you would consider to be spoilers if they were _not_ common knowledge as you define it?

This is only a personal request, of course. But, if it matters to you, I would take it as an indication of respect for my autonomy. You don’t have to understand why. 

Certainly what I ask is an inconvenience, but it would mean a lot to me. Will you do me this favor?


----------



## TheSword (Sep 4, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Common knowledge is not spoilers. Full stop. Any expectation to avoid mentioning any of those without warning is 100% out of line.
> 
> And again, you’ve provided no support for the truly astonishingly weird claim that this intersects meaningfully with the agency of people participating in public* forum discussions. It does not. No one’s agency is interfered with by even the most egregious spoilers, and the spoiler that started this debate was not especially egregious.
> 
> *no, the distinction of technical public status vs “open to the public and public facing” does not change any of this, so please don’t anyone derail the discussion with a nitpick about this website being privately owned?



If you were in a group about players considering playing a campaign hardback for the first time, would you consider it out of line to ask people who have read the book already to use spoiler tags to discuss things that might spoil the surprises in the book?

Or does your desire to discuss adventures trump the desire of people to play in them without having things spoiled?


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Sep 4, 2021)

Rune said:


> Alright, let me try a different approach.
> 
> Since common knowledge does not equal universal knowledge, and since _I_ can’t unread words of yours that I might unwittingly read, would you kindly, pretty please, use spoiler tags on these boards when you mention things that you would consider to be spoilers if they were _not_ common knowledge as you define it?
> 
> ...



I hope you can see, if you read this from a perspective other than your own, how this entire post comes across as disingenuous, like you're performing a test rather than making a sincere request? 

What I won't do, is spoiler tag every comment I make that contains any information about a property that can't be gleaned from the title, genre, and IMDB blurb. If there is a specific request in a thread to avoid spoilers, I will abide by it, just like I avoid talking about the particulars of The Mandolorian when hanging out with my best friend, even though he has access via a mutual friend and is a big SW nerd who has published things that used to be EU canon and it's wild to me that he hasn't watched all of it, because there is a specific request there.


TheSword said:


> If you were in a group about players considering playing a campaign hardback for the first time, would you consider it out of line to ask people who have read the book already to use spoiler tags to discuss things that might spoil the surprises in the book?
> 
> Or does your desire to discuss adventures trump the desire of people to play in them without having things spoiled?



Not at all like cases. 

But I also don't consider it out of line to ask people to not throw out spoilers. If I missed a request for no spoilers in the OP, I apologize and will allow that Garth should have seen that and not mentioned any important plot elements. 

What is unreasonable, is the attitude that people should walk through life under the assumption that "no spoilers" is the default mode of behavior, and can only be deviated from when explicit permission is granted. The opposite is, quite rightly, the norm. People talk about stuff, and only avoid topics that are obscene or similarly innapropriate for public discussion where others can easily hear, only going beyond that restriction to avoid otherwise normal topics, when _someone makes an explicit request._

A reminder, again, that I did not spoil anything about Wheel of Time, in this thread. (well, nothing legit. I and several others spoiled who trailer characters are, and the fact Rand gets a sword that is significant enough to care what it looks like) 


Basically, spoiling after a request not to is a jerk move. Talking freely about a property when no such request has been made is not. It is unfathomably backward that this should be controversial.


----------



## Urriak Uruk (Sep 4, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Basically, spoiling after a request not to is a jerk move. Talking freely about a property when no such request has been made is not. It is unfathomably backward that this should be controversial.




Yeah, I don't think this is right. One should not spoil the end of an adaptation or the major twists/reveals before being asked.

For example, if someone went up to me and said, "Hey, did you see the trailer for that Wheel of Time show? Pretty cool eh?" and I responded with "It does look cool, but I really hope they do the death of _any named character_ justice." You shouldn't do that before clarifying how familiar the other person is with the property.

I'm not accusing you of this (I don't know where in this thread you supposedly spoiled something) but I definitely don't agree that one needs to be asked "Please don't spoil," to stop them from spoiling.


----------



## TheSword (Sep 4, 2021)

I think a poll is needed! Gonna do it. Gonna set up my first ever poll!



It’s done. Let’s move the spoiler debate elsewhere so we can enjoy the Wheel of Time Trailer discussion.









						Spoilers Poll (Poll about spoilers not a poll containing spoilers)
					

So this spin off from the Wheel of Time trailer thread where a significant event in the book that had ramifications for what was happening in the series before was casually mentioned. This led to a debate and I’m interested in what people think about the topic and why?  For the purpose of a this...




					www.enworld.org


----------



## Azuresun (Sep 4, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Common knowledge is not spoilers. Full stop. Any expectation to avoid mentioning any of those without warning is 100% out of line.
> 
> And again, you’ve provided no support for the truly astonishingly weird claim that this intersects meaningfully with the agency of people participating in public* forum discussions. It does not. No one’s agency is interfered with by even the most egregious spoilers, and the spoiler that started this debate was not especially egregious.
> 
> *no, the distinction of technical public status vs “open to the public and public facing” does not change any of this, so please don’t anyone derail the discussion with a nitpick about this website being privately owned?




And now you've invested about 100x the effort that it would have taken to edit in [ spoiler ] and [ /spoiler ] to the post. That's an _impressive _commitment to diminishing the enjoyment of others.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Sep 5, 2021)

Azuresun said:


> And now you've invested about 100x the effort that it would have taken to edit in [ spoiler ] and [ /spoiler ] to the post. That's an _impressive _commitment to diminishing the enjoyment of others.



What post do you think I need to edit?  



Urriak Uruk said:


> Yeah, I don't think this is right. One should not spoil the end of an adaptation or the major twists/reveals before being asked.
> 
> For example, if someone went up to me and said, "Hey, did you see the trailer for that Wheel of Time show? Pretty cool eh?" and I responded with "It does look cool, but I really hope they do the death of _any named character_ justice." You shouldn't do that before clarifying how familiar the other person is with the property.
> 
> I'm not accusing you of this (I don't know where in this thread you supposedly spoiled something) but I definitely don't agree that one needs to be asked "Please don't spoil," to stop them from spoiling.



I spoiled some extremely well known events in Star Wars, LoTR, A Song of Ice And Fire, and Battlestar Gallactica, as examples of common pop culture knowledge, but I haven’t spoiled anything related to Wheel of Time.


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 5, 2021)

Soooooo, heeey, that trailer, ammirite?


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Sep 5, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> Soooooo, heeey, that trailer, ammirite?



I like the creepy city whose name I can barely recall how to say, much less spell. Looked really cool, though I vaguely recall it being a mist? Am I wrong?

Tar Valon is not at all what I imagined, but it's quite rad, so I'm fine with it. Also Siuon is very different from what I pictured, but also a fantastic actor, so whatever. 

I do think Tar Valon would look cooler the way I picture it, though. More...apart from the city proper, and with graceful architecture that seems almost impossible. Also it looks vaguely like one of the places in Game of Thrones. But it is rad, so whatevs.


----------



## Garthanos (Sep 5, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> But I also don't consider it out of line to ask people to not throw out spoilers. If I missed a request for no spoilers in the OP, I apologize and will allow that Garth should have seen that and not mentioned any important plot elements.



It was added after the fact nothing was missed/.


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 5, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I like the creepy city whose name I can barely recall how to say, much less spell. Looked really cool, though I vaguely recall it being a mist? Am I wrong?
> 
> Tar Valon is not at all what I imagined, but it's quite rad, so I'm fine with it. Also Siuon is very different from what I pictured, but also a fantastic actor, so whatever.
> 
> I do think Tar Valon would look cooler the way I picture it, though. More...apart from the city proper, and with graceful architecture that seems almost impossible. Also it looks vaguely like one of the places in Game of Thrones. But it is rad, so whatevs.



Shadar Logath: normal, impressive ruins by day...



Spoiler: slight spoilers



Haunted by eeeeeeviiiiil fog at night, pretty sure Lost was ripping Shadar Logath off


. Apparently they made a very large and detailed set for running around the ruins that the actors really vibed off of.

My image of the White Tower proper was, larger, but the geography of the island looks right on. I love Siuan Sanche's wizard-Pope dress.


----------



## TheSword (Sep 5, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> Shadar Logath: normal, impressive ruins by day...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To be honest the tower and Tar Valon was not at all what I expected. I’ve always seen it as a spire. Like a needle but I except that is very odd architecturally and not at all practical. This feels like a compromise but I’m not unhappy about it. I can’t wait to see it up close.


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 5, 2021)

TheSword said:


> To be honest the tower and Tar Valon was not at all what I expected. I’ve always seen it as a spire. Like a needle but I except that is very odd architecturally and not at all practical. This feels like a compromise but I’m not unhappy about it. I can’t wait to see it up close.



The description I found on a quick search says that the White Tower "structure is a bone-white spire nearly 100 spans (around 600 feet or 183 meters) in height. Its roof is flat-topped with a waist-high railing." The rest of the city visible in the shot is on an island of 8 by 2 mils, with a population of 500,000 people. Thinking on the image, the White Tower is actually massive, though yeah it's a little more Hagia Sophia than my mental image, but it certainly dominates the cityscape. I found the original map, and an annotation of the trailer shot:


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## Steel_Wind (Sep 6, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Sorry, but I have no familiarity with the source material (I think I struggled through a chapter or two of the first novel a couple of decades ago), and the trailer just presents a load of generic faces and places without giving me any real clue as to who's important, who's the main character, whether anyone's likeable, or what the plot is about. Oh, except the villain's called "The Dark One", which is about the most generic fantasy villain name ever.



In fairness, it's a "teaser trailer". Teasers are just supposed to be images to get you excited about the film/series without explaining any of it. Actual trailers are intended to convey to you the plot of the film/series, at least to the point where you have some idea what this is all about. This one, as a "teaser trailer" falls between those two traditional purposes to which a "teaser" and a "trailer" are put.

The more detailed information as to plot that you seek may come out more in the longer trailer -- and yes -- Rafe Judkins, showrunner, has said that there will be one of those, too. No release date on the trailer, but I expect that some time in mid-October.


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## MarkB (Sep 6, 2021)

Steel_Wind said:


> In fairness, it's a "teaser trailer". Teasers are just supposed to be images to get you excited about the film/series without explaining any of it.



And it succeeded at one of those goals, which is not bad.


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## doctorbadwolf (Sep 6, 2021)

MarkB said:


> And it succeeded at one of those goals, which is not bad.



I’ve seen vastly more people excited than not excited, tbf. Including comparing the “I don’t know anything about Wheel of Time, and/but…” comments. From what I’ve seen, they largely succeeded at both.


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