# Help on a Crusader Build



## defendi (Sep 9, 2007)

My group is about to start Shadowdale and I need to build a tank/leader character.  I was thinking of a crusader, maybe White Raven, likely LG in alignment.  I intend to be a strong leader and I'm thinking of working toward prestige classes which build on that (at least dabling in them), but that's only if I have room for the levels while I'm working on crusader-enhancing classes.  I haven't decided on race, but was thinking Aasimar for concept reasons . . . I'm not married to that.  I'll be starting at ninth level.  My begining stats will likely be: 18, 13, 10, 15, 16, 12, to be assigned as I like.  I'll probably be the only martial adept.  The GM has told me that he's allowing any prestige class that increases divine casting level to advance my stances, maneuvers, etc. if I'm a crusader.  Pretty much all the WotC books are fair game, and I can probably talk him into allowing in other classes if they fit.

Any advice is welcome, especially in the matter of how my feats and manuevers will interact.  ToB is relatively knew to me and I don't have much time to examine it this week before next saturday.  Also, feel free to give advice beyond 9th, as we'll likely be playing up to 20th.

Thanks in advance.


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## Arkhandus (Sep 9, 2007)

defendi said:
			
		

> I haven't decided on race, but was thinking Aasimar for concept reasons . . . I'm not married to that.  I'll be starting at ninth level.  My begining stats will likely be: 18, 13, 10, 15, 16, 12, to be assigned as I like.



Is that 9th-level before or after the Aasimar's +1 level adjustment?

Be sure to pick up maximum ranks in Diplomacy and Intimidate, and always try to find a chance to use the Duel of Wills option for Intimidate at the start of Chapter 2 in the Book of Nine Swords.

I guess aasimar crusader 8 or 9 would work fine as-is.....

Feat-wise, likely Extra Granted Maneuver, Devoted Bulwark, Faith Unswerving, and White Raven Defense (if 9th-level actual, not 8th-level with a +1 LA from Aasimar).  Later feats may be Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical, and perhaps Blade Meditation with White Raven.  A few copies of Martial Study for Mountain Hammer, Crushing Vise, and Elder Mountain Hammer (which requires 2 other Stone Dragon maneuvers) may be useful if you face several enemies with Damage Reduction.

Stances could be Iron Guard's Glare, Bolstering Voice, and Thicket of Blades.  Maneuvers could be Crusader's Strike, Charging Minotaur, Shield Block, Tactical Strike, Revitalizing Strike, Defensive Rebuke, White Raven Strike, and Covering Strike.  If 9th-level crusader, then Flanking Maneuver could be your 9th maneuver known.  Later choices might be Radiant Charge, Order Forged From Chaos, Rallying Strike, Clarion Call, Aura of Triumph, Swarming Assault, White Raven Hammer, Shield Counter, Strike of Righteous Vitality, War Master's Charge, Castigating Strike, and Law Bearer.  I dunno.


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## Nifft (Sep 10, 2007)

The basics of Crusaders:
- Pure Crusader is excellent.
- You need Stone Power like a Barbarian needs Power Attack. You can take both.
- Because you need Stone Power, you also want some Stone Dragon Strikes.

*Aasimar Crusader* 9th level (honestly, I'd probably take a Human 10th level instead):
Str: 18
Dex: 16 (15 +1 level)
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 14 (12 +2)
Cha: 16 (13 +2 +1 level)

Use a Longsword & large shield; you may wish to wear heavy armor, but your Dexterity is good enough to allow you some mobility instead.

1: Stone Power -- Bolstering Voice (WR/Stance) -- Crusader's Strike (DS/Strike), Stone Bones (SD/Strike), Vanguard Strike (DS/Strike), Leading the Attack (WR/Strike), Douse the Flames (WR/Strike)
2: Leading the Charge (WR/Stance)
3: White Raven Defense -- Mountain Hammer (SD/Strike)
4: Vanguard Strike -> Shield Block (DS/Counter)
5: Revitalizing Strike (DS/Strike)
6: Clarion Commander -- Leading the Attack -> White Raven Tactics (WR/Boost)
7: Divine Surge (DS/Strike)
8: Tactics of the Wolf (WR/Stance) -- Douse the Flames -> Covering Strike (WR/Boost)
9: (Free Feat) -- Flanking Maneuver (WR/Strike)

Skills: Intimidate, Diplomacy, two more.

The basics are: you are really hard to hit, you grant some crazy bonuses (+2 to Will saves, or +4 to damage when charging, or +4 to damage when flanking with you), and on top of this, you have about 10 ways to give your allies extra attacks against your foe. Get familiar with the Clarion Commander [Tactical] feat; it's fantastic.

For your free feat, consider Improved Initiative, Extra Granted Maneuver, Shield Specialization (PHB-II), or Combat Reflexes.

Cheers, -- N


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## Arkhandus (Sep 10, 2007)

...See, my suggestions basically stick with avoiding the really broken stuff.  Though, I don't see what's so great about Clarion Commander.  It seems really inefficient compared to Faith Unswerving and just using White Raven maneuvers for the group combat tactics.


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## Zurai (Sep 10, 2007)

Arkhandus said:
			
		

> ...See, my suggestions basically stick with avoiding the really broken stuff.





.... errr, what in Nifft's advice is "really broken stuff"? WRT is powerful but with the latest ruling not "really broken", and nothing else even comes remotely close to broken.


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## Arkhandus (Sep 10, 2007)

White Raven Tactics and Divine Surge.  WRT is still superior to Haste in 3.5, even if for some reason it's adjudicated as not affecting the initiator.  DS does more damage than any other maneuvers of up to 2 levels higher (only 7th+ level maneuvers match or exceed it in damage; though the 6th-level Rabid Bear Strike is _close_ at the expense of some drawbacks).

And it seems like the authors accidentally omitted a line or two of text from Divine Surge's effects, that are only present in Greater Divine Surge despite the fact that DS itself also mentions draining the user (just without any mechanical effect, apparently).

I generally lean more on the side of caution and _not_ agitating DMs through use of broken material.  Just as I would never play a Frenzied Berserker, I would never use or suggest White Raven Tactics.  At least not as-written; I would only allow it or use it if I had a significantly houserule-modified version.  I aim for efficiency, effectiveness, and sticking with a character's theme, while trying to avoid brokenness.


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## Nifft (Sep 10, 2007)

Arkhandus said:
			
		

> White Raven Tactics and Divine Surge.



 I do highly recommend nerfing WRT. But even nerfed, it's a great Boost.

What's wrong with Divine Surge? It just does a bunch of damage. That's nice, since he won't be able to deal damage in the usual ways (two-handed Power Attack + Emerald Razor, for example).

Cheers, -- N


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## blargney the second (Sep 10, 2007)

Some great recommendations already in here.  I'll just add that crusader makes an excellent leader class.  Not because you tell people what to do, but because you'll give them HUGE bonuses if they act in concert with you.  It can be fairly subtle, but it ends up meaning that you'll decide which opponents to bring down first.  Improved Initiative can help with that so you're not acting as clean-up crew.


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## Kmart Kommando (Sep 10, 2007)

Go Crusader/Cleric into Ruby Knight Vindicator.  Extra Turning and/or night sticks if you like cheese.


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## defendi (Sep 11, 2007)

I'm reading avidly.  Keep it comming.

It's 9th effective level, but the GM is allowing lesser Aasimar, so I can get around the level adjustment.


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## Kmart Kommando (Sep 12, 2007)

Crusaders don't have access to Diamond Mind maneuvers.  They'd have to burn 2 feats to gain Emerald Razor (as it has a prerequisite of 1 Diamond Mind maneuver), and would have no recovery method to use it more than once per encounter.


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## Zurai (Sep 12, 2007)

Kmart Kommando said:
			
		

> and would have no recovery method to use it more than once per encounter.




Incorrect. If you do not have a recovery method, those feats work as you describe.

If you DO have a class that gives a recovery method, you can assign the maneuver from the feat to that class's recovery method.


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## Nifft (Sep 12, 2007)

Kmart Kommando said:
			
		

> Crusaders don't have access to Diamond Mind maneuvers.



 ... which is exactly why they don't need Power Attack. See?

Cheers, -- N


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## Kmart Kommando (Sep 13, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> ... which is exactly why they don't need Power Attack. See?
> 
> Cheers, -- N



Full BAB _and_ a delayed damage pool giving you more of a bonus to hit.  Why would you not take Power Attack?


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## Nifft (Sep 13, 2007)

Kmart Kommando said:
			
		

> Full BAB _and_ a delayed damage pool giving you more of a bonus to hit.  Why would you not take Power Attack?



 Because Stone Power is usually a better use for those five points of attack bonus.

Also, one-handed weapon, and low synergy with my maneuvers (which have to have a few Stone Dragon strikes, and won't have any Diamond Mind strikes).

Cheers, -- N


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## Vysirez (Sep 14, 2007)

I just want to second or third any suggestions for extra granted maneuver for a crusader build. It's very useful, allowing you to cycle your maneuvers earlier and giving more options when you start a fight. I would also second stone power, it's a really nice feat for a crusader.

I think Nifft's build is pretty good. I personally would prefer Iron Guards Glare or Martial spirit over Bolstering Voice. He's got a pretty good mix of strikes and counters/boosts. One thing to be aware of with a crusdaer is not taking too many strikes. With extra granted maneuver your maneuver pool cycles every 3 rounds, without it's every 4. So it's difficult to use more then 3-4 strikes before you reset your maneuvers. So I would generally try to have 3-4 good strikes, and fill the rest of your maneuvers with boosts and counters. This isnt always easy with a crusader due to limited selections, but it's something to aim for.

Another thing is with a crusader you want to try to use as many of your maneuvers as you can generally. Yes, you do want to use them well, but since it doesnt take an action to refresh and they are going to recycle anyways, you generally want to use them if you can. Hence the reason for not taking to many strikes.

If your just starting with crusader I would say stick with a pure crusader build. It's still very strong, and will allow you to focus on getting the most out of that. Ruby Knight Vindicator is a very powerful build, too powerful IMO, so if you are at all worried about your DM stepping on ToB I would avoid it at first.


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## Kmart Kommando (Sep 14, 2007)

Be an Elan, take (Greater) Psychic Weapon, Psionic Meditation, Deep Impact, Power Attack and maximize your one hit output.      Psychotic's Handbook ftw!


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## Nifft (Sep 14, 2007)

Vysirez said:
			
		

> I think Nifft's build is pretty good. I personally would prefer Iron Guards Glare or Martial spirit over Bolstering Voice. He's got a pretty good mix of strikes and counters/boosts.



 Thanks.

My reasoning for the stance selection was partially simplicity. Since he's going to be taking White Raven Defense, I figured it'd be best to make sure he's always in a White Raven stance. It's annoying enough to remember that when he's next to an ally they both get +1 AC. 

Cheers, -- N


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