# WFRP - THIRD Edition Announced from FFG



## Emirikol (Aug 13, 2009)

Fantasy Flight Games [News] - Leading publisher of board, card, and roleplaying games.

Looks like a boxed set!  Someone was saying new dice mechanics..possibly dice pools.

Sweet!

jh


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## mhensley (Aug 13, 2009)

no way, no how

first d&d, now wfrp

it's like there's a rpg serial killer loose


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## thedungeondelver (Aug 13, 2009)

mhensley said:


> no way, no how
> 
> first d&d, now wfrp
> 
> it's like there's a rpg serial killer loose





Indeed.  Apparently the only way to add more players and characters is to buy more supplementary boxes.

Man what.


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## Serendipity (Aug 13, 2009)

Ugh.  I don't like the look of that at all.   I'll reserve judgment until I can examine the contents of that box but a complete system overhaul would pretty much guarantee my non-purchase.


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## Morpheus (Aug 13, 2009)

I tap my three blue mana to cast...oops, wrong game-or is it?


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## Aus_Snow (Aug 13, 2009)

a) they're smokin' crack, or b) it's a cunning plan to get people to buy more 2nd ed stuff. . .

'a' didn't get me to try smokin' crack, but 'b'? I think 'b' mighta worked.


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## mach1.9pants (Aug 13, 2009)

Man, I can only say, I am shocked. Action Cards? even 4E doesn't come with action cards, although you can use or buy them! 

I think this is a bigger change than 3E to 4E, still be interested to see it!


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## Renshai (Aug 13, 2009)

I won't be moving from 2E to this. Simple as that.


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## kitsune9 (Aug 13, 2009)

Emirikol said:


> Fantasy Flight Games [News] - Leading publisher of board, card, and roleplaying games.
> 
> Looks like a boxed set!  Someone was saying new dice mechanics..possibly dice pools.
> 
> ...




I will have to get it simply because it says Warhammer FRP on it.


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## Crothian (Aug 13, 2009)

It sounds very different.  FFG has been doing some really good books for their other lines so I'm going to hold off until I see it.  I agree though it doesn't sound as good as I would have hoped, but I want to give them the benefit of the doubt until its out.


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## pawsplay (Aug 13, 2009)

man what


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## MerricB (Aug 13, 2009)

Ok, this is utterly bizarre.

You can find a lot more information here:
Fantasy Flight Games [Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay - Description] - Leading publisher of board, card, and roleplaying games.

Basically, the (eight-sided or six-sided) dice have custom symbols on them. When you attack, you compare the dice symbols to the power card to see the result. 

"You hit for normal damage"
"You hit for +2 damage"
"Perform a manouever for free"
"One enemy within close range of you who is not engaged with an opponent may engage you"

Very odd.

Cheers!


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## Hjorimir (Aug 13, 2009)

Looks neat!


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## Agamon (Aug 13, 2009)

Okay, the man whats are flowing free, so I'll add a wow, just wow....


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## pedr (Aug 13, 2009)

This could be an excellent entry-point to the rpg part of the hobby.

It does rely on someone shelling out a big chunk of cash, but I like the fact that it's scaled for four players including the GM: it does often feel as if the 'five or six person practical minimum' for a lot of mainstream RPGs can be a stumbling-block. 

A lot of people will probably say that this is what some of the 4e designers wanted but couldn't take far enough. I don't think I agree - 4e is a continuation of a particular approach to rpgs, and I don't think that would have lent itself to a severe reduction in complexity - the 'creating, building, and customising/optimising your character' activity is such a key part of D&D. This seems to be a far larger departure from WFRP's past (perhaps because FFG think that the players of 2nd ed WFRP have a pretty good game which doesn't _need_ a new edition which frees them to create something different) - and the Warhammer link with the broad spectrum of table-top games makes it a great property to hang these innovations on. 

I'm fascinated by this. I don't really think I'm in its primary target market but it looks very interesting, and if it encourages people to play games and have fun while creating and roleplaying characters then I'm all for it - and might end up playing (and even, perhaps, buying!) it myself.


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## mudbunny (Aug 13, 2009)

As someone who has never played WFRP, but is intrigued by the setting, what is the difference between 2nd edition and what we have learned so far about 3rd edition??


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## Herremann the Wise (Aug 13, 2009)

It actually looks like it would be really good (in a Game of Thrones board game type of way) - but seemingly having very little in common with it's two predecessors.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise


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## Ruined (Aug 13, 2009)

Wow. This is definitely not my game from near 20 years ago. Luckily I still have all my books.

That said, I would love to try out the mechanics. I have enough faith in Fantasy Flight to know they'll do their best.


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## thedungeondelver (Aug 13, 2009)

mudbunny said:


> As someone who has never played WFRP, but is intrigued by the setting, what is the difference between 2nd edition and what we have learned so far about 3rd edition??





*WARHAMMER FANTASY ROLE-PLAY* 1st and 2nd editions is a dice/pencil/paper RPG, this is a leap away from that towards a boardgame like *DESCENT: JOURNEYS IN THE DARK*.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Aug 13, 2009)

$99 for the package? Yowser. Then again, if this box is all the rules, nothing but the rules, and no further rules expansions ever for the life of the line . . . that may be nifty.

Knowing this is Games Workshop here, I wonder how they will extend the line after this $99 set is bought by customers. What kind of expansions are planned and what price, and how often they get released.

I hadn't yet sold my WHFRP 2 material yet, but when I heard the announcement long ago I psychologically began planning parting with the books. I'm not yet sure if I'll make the leap and sell it all off, but I'm closer to now.


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## Terramotus (Aug 13, 2009)

I kept looking for the punchline.  Are we sure it's not April 1st?


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## Emirikol (Aug 13, 2009)

*character sheet*

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/wfrp/wfrp-description-page/Component_CharSheet_Front.png

Character sheet.


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## Dire Bare (Aug 13, 2009)

The cranky sure started fast on this one!

Oh noes!  This is the death of all that is good in RPG games.  Again!

Sigh.  You may not care for the previews you've seen, but to declare with vehemence that this product is from the devil is just another example of cranky gamer syndrome.  

Now, once it's published, and you've gone over to your friend's house to check it out . . . you know, the guy who buys everything so you don't have to, then the wailing and gnashing might actually have some basis in reality.

I have the utmost confidence in Fantasy Flight Games to pull this off, no matter how different from earlier editions this might (or might not) be.  Every product from them that I've ever got my hands on has been beyond fantastic.  From board games to card games to roleplaying games, these guys know what they are doing.  That's not to say they can't screw this up, but I'm betting on FFG, not the cranky gamers.


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## Dire Bare (Aug 13, 2009)

Eric Anondson said:


> Knowing this is Games Workshop here, I wonder how they will extend the line after this $99 set is bought by customers. What kind of expansions are planned and what price, and how often they get released.




This isn't Games Workshop.  This is Fantasy Flight Games (FFG) under license from Games Workshop.  World of difference!  Find some friends who've played FFG's version of the Warhammer 40K RPG and ask them what they think of that, it may give you some hope (or not).


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## Scurvy_Platypus (Aug 13, 2009)

Dire Bare said:


> This isn't Games Workshop.  This is Fantasy Flight Games (FFG) under license from Games Workshop.  World of difference!  Find some friends who've played FFG's version of the Warhammer 40K RPG and ask them what they think of that, it may give you some hope (or not).




Errr... the 40k RPG in the form of Dark Heresy really isn't that different from FFG than the one from Black Industries. Just some eratta in the FFG one as I recall. The rules themselves... the stats at least in Dark Heresy aren't that different than what I see in my old Rogue Trader book... the 40k wargame Rogue Trader book that is.

And given how protective GW is of its properties and all that? Yeah, it _is_ GW. I can't imagine that GW would allow FFG to do something like this without their stamp of approval.

And FFG can certainly screw it up... they've got a fondness for doing rpgs and then dropping them with no warning or any real indication of why. Dragonstar, Fireborn, Blue Planet... for a while I was starting to think of FFG as "The place where rpgs go to die". Midnight was the only product line to really get "support" and to my knowledge it's now dead and there's no plans that I'm aware of for it.

Don't get me wrong though... I'm betting this will be successful enough for FFG. In part because I think GW wouldn't have allowed this sort of thing to be done without being convinced that it'd make money.


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## MerricB (Aug 13, 2009)

OTOH, FFG's support of its boardgames is nothing short of phenomenal. Them getting the license for Talisman was one of the best things I'd heard. 

Runebound, Arkham Horror, Descent - all three of those games have had expansion after expansion.

Cheers!


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## ArghMark (Aug 13, 2009)

Wow, when I first read the description I was quite shocked.

Cards? Special dice? No percentile rolls? No playing camp followers or rat catchers? I had a thought that maybe this will be more board-gamey, 4ed style.

And then I thought - I can understand the reason why. On the surface, playing a camp follower doesn't seem that cool. Until you play the game, that is. 

Who knows for sure? I'll have to wait till it comes out here before I continue any gnashing of teeth.


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## kitsune9 (Aug 13, 2009)

MerricB said:


> Ok, this is utterly bizarre.
> 
> You can find a lot more information here:
> Fantasy Flight Games [Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay - Description] - Leading publisher of board, card, and roleplaying games.
> ...




That kind of reminds me of the old Heroquest game where the dice had skulls on them? 

Yeah, it definitely looks like they exited Stage Left on this game, but I'll probably still pick it up just to see what it's about.


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## FriarRosing (Aug 13, 2009)

I don't know how I feel about this. Mainly I'll be let down if I can't be a rat catcher. And if career isn't random. I mean, doesn't that change the point of the game to some extent?

It looks like it might be fun, but they seem to be taking a serious board game route. That may be cool, I don't know.

EDIT:

Also, I think it'd be interesting if RPGs get more and more based around the same assumptions board games use--especially the whole "elegant rules" schtick of eurogames. It may be a good idea. I mean, the whole thing started with ideas taken from wargames, and I'd certainly prefer the simpler, more accessible rules of modern board games to the fiddly goofiness of wargames.

But anyway.

EDIT II: 

Looking at it, I'm sure I'll buy it. :-(

Also the idea of a party tension mechanic seems weird to me.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 13, 2009)

Dang, that's pretty expensive. I would really love to see what the fuss is all about, but there are fair chances I won't really play the game often, so it is a bit expensive.

It certainly doesn't sound like Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2E, but... I have Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2E already. So I certainly applaud them for trying something new and interesting.

Will there be playtests report or something like that? Test plays at GenCon? I'd love to hear some information on how this actually works.


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## Vicar In A Tutu (Aug 13, 2009)

*Disapointed*

This doesnt look like the WFRP I know and love. I thought the change from 3E D&D to 4E was good, simply because I had some problems DMing 3E (but not playing it, mind you). However, WFRP 2E was by far my favorite game to GM. I hoped they would refine 2E instead of tossing it out the window and going for something radically different. And also, if they are hoping to bring lots of new players to roleplaying, shouldn't they have gone for a more affordable solution? 99$ is a lot to shell out for the core box.


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## frankthedm (Aug 13, 2009)

If it was named Talisman RPG, i'd be fine with that. Heck it even looks more like a Talisman RPG akin to Descent's Road to Legend expansion.

It could have plenty of depth, but it certainly looks to me like the "Create a new game and give it the old name" design philosophy plaguing newer RPG editions.


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## CelticMutt (Aug 13, 2009)

Emirikol said:


> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/f...escription-page/Component_CharSheet_Front.png
> 
> Character sheet.




That's not the character sheet; it's just a character/career card.  From the description, character sheets are probably still going to be like normal ones.


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## Baumi (Aug 13, 2009)

I find it really interesting. It's always good to try something new and this looks really fun and something to get new Players into our Hobby. I mean it looks much less daunting (for new players) than standard dices and overcrouded Charactersheets full of complicated Numbers and Stats of the usual systems.

But the 99 Bucks (where is that from?) Price Point would be a real showstopper.

Also the custom made stuff (Dice and Cards) make everything easier but are hard to replace if lost.


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## wedgeski (Aug 13, 2009)

Looks interesting. Historically boxed sets are a brave move, so FFG must be very confident in the quality of the product. This might be one I have a sniff at.


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## mach1.9pants (Aug 13, 2009)

wedgeski said:


> Looks interesting. Historically boxed sets are a brave move, so FFG must be very confident in the quality of the product. This might be one I have a sniff at.




Well I am basing this assumption on little information but: TTRPG box sets may (I don't know) sell low but board games don't, it is the standard. This game really really looks like a board game/ttrpg combo.

As I said assumption (the mother of all co*k ups, I know) but it sure looks like it!


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## vagabundo (Aug 13, 2009)

Looks like they are marketing this at the the GW customers - the tradition Warhammer mini guys.

Seems like a big break with 2e, but maybe that is good. Are the 2e player dissatisfied with their lot?


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## tmatk (Aug 13, 2009)

FFGs prices tend to be inflated; you can get their products much cheaper else where. For example, War of the Ring is listed at $80 in their site, I got it from thewarstore.com for around $50 not too long ago.


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## Jan van Leyden (Aug 13, 2009)

The usage of special dice reminds me of the old Throwing Stones RPG - which apparently never had any success.

Interesting marketing idea, btw. Imaging buying Career Boosters, with the special cards and dice needed for characters belonging to a career. I wonder whether the system actually encourages you to change careers everey so often. 

Hey, and we have a parallel to WFRP 1st edition (don't know how 2nd edition handles this): You had to get all the trappings for the new career for your character before he could change to it. The only difference is now that you have to buy the trappings for him at a shop.

This whole thing is interesting, at least!


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## pawsplay (Aug 13, 2009)

I'm not saying it's the Devil. I'm just saying I don't understand, and I fear things I don't understand. I mean, I LURV Warhammer FRP, so I can guess it's unlikely I will lurv anything else as much. This could also be cool, but it's very confusing that it's called WFRP. Also, I'm still not over the whole D&D 4e thing.


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## Umbran (Aug 13, 2009)

Dire Bare said:


> The cranky sure started fast on this one!
> 
> Oh noes!  This is the death of all that is good in RPG games.  Again!
> 
> Sigh.  You may not care for the previews you've seen, but to declare with vehemence that this product is from the devil is just another example of cranky gamer syndrome.






Nobody said anything even remotely resembling "death of all that is good in RPGs".  Or "from the devil", or anything vaguely similar.  Willfully or not, you are drastically inflating the reaction.  

The cranky started with *you*, dude.  And it is going to stop with you.

Everyone understand that?  No more hyperbolic representations of other's positions.


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## Mallus (Aug 13, 2009)

I haven't gotten around to using any of my WFRP2e books --so many games, relatively little time-- that I can't see purchasing this one.

But I am interested. New things interest me. I wonder if anyone I know will pick this up? Oh well, there's always reading about it's vivisection on the Internet...


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## coyote6 (Aug 13, 2009)

Yeah, it reads like it's an RPG from a parallel universe. 

If they were going to do a third edition, at least they're being bold about it. I'd definitely check it out -- except that price tag! Yowza.


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## Fifth Element (Aug 13, 2009)

Looks interesting. Not $100 interesting, but still interesting.


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## MinionOfCthulhu (Aug 13, 2009)

If this was one of their board games or something, I'd be all for it. For instance, I'm really looking forward to Chaos In the Old World. Being able to play as Nurgle? Hell _yes_.
This though, for the follow-up to a great RPG system? This seems...weird. And unnecessary. Plus the $100 pricetag...


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## Nebulous (Aug 13, 2009)

Baumi said:


> But the 99 Bucks (where is that from?) Price Point would be a real showstopper.




My guess is that the box weighs thirty pounds and has more content than Descent did. I'm very intrigued by this and will probably pick it up.  Like others have said, FF has virtually done no wrong in my book.


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## hexgrid (Aug 13, 2009)

Is there any indication that the game uses either a board or miniatures? I don't see them mentioned anywhere.


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## kitsune9 (Aug 13, 2009)

Emirikol said:


> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/wfrp/wfrp-description-page/Component_CharSheet_Front.png
> 
> Character sheet.




Hmmm.... Looks very different and more simpler format and design. Probably it looks like they are going for a simpler presentation on mechanics and execution. Even though this looks like a radical departure from 1e and 2e, I'm still really curious about it and will probably pick it up.


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## Henry (Aug 13, 2009)

My inner grognard tells me I'm not going to like it - then again, my inner grognard said I was going to hate D&D 4E, also.  It sounds like an excellent opportunity to get boardgame enthusiasts into an RPG that can gateway them into tabletop roleplaying, but just the one picture of that troll slayer stat card tells me enough to know I'm probably not going to like it as a substitute for WFRP2. That, and that FREAKING COST!!!! Admittedly, I've probably already paid that much on WFRP books anyway... just not all at once.


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## Obryn (Aug 13, 2009)

I'd be willing to give it a shot, but I have sticker shock from that $99 pricetag.  I'd want to see some stellar reviews before considering that purchase. 

If worse comes to worst, well, I still have all my WFRP2e books, you know?  I have just about the entire line, and that should carry me through as many campaigns as I could ever want!

Mechanics changes don't bother me.  It's going to be a different game than 2e, but then again 2e was a different game from 1e, too.  It'll have to stand or fall on its own merits, just like every other RPG out there. 

-O


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## Primal (Aug 13, 2009)

MerricB said:


> Ok, this is utterly bizarre.
> 
> You can find a lot more information here:
> Fantasy Flight Games [Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay - Description] - Leading publisher of board, card, and roleplaying games.
> ...




Indeed, very odd -- originally I thought they're trying to bring WFRP 3E closer to Warhammer Online, but this reminds me of a boardgame (for example, Hero Quest has similar "custom dice"). Granted, some indie RPGs have all sorts of odd mechanics that utilize dice pools and drawn relationship maps on a grid and whatnot; this, however, feels like a mish-mash of all sorts of weirdness.

I mean, skills on separate *cards* that you attach to your "character keeper!? Two characteristics? A party sheet? Er...


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## crazy_cat (Aug 13, 2009)

thedungeondelver said:


> *WARHAMMER FANTASY ROLE-PLAY* 1st and 2nd editions is a dice/pencil/paper RPG, this is a leap away from that towards a boardgame like *DESCENT: JOURNEYS IN THE DARK*.



Truth. WFRP 3e sounds awful. Yet another game where I wont be updating to the new edition.


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## Mircoles (Aug 13, 2009)

Well, it's still set in the Warhammer Fantasy world and thats always been one of the more interesting things about the game.


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## Reigan (Aug 13, 2009)

Maybe they are aiming this at their boardgame market. I'm intrigued though, it might be something I could use to introduce my kids to roleplaying.

On the downside, perhaps they should have tried the system on something else other than Warhammer first, and that price tag, far too high for an intro system.


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## coyote6 (Aug 13, 2009)

I wonder if the theory is that the cost of the game could (should) be split amongst the group? Everything you need is in the box, they say; split four ways, that's down to $25 each, which isn't bad.


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## scourger (Aug 13, 2009)

Having played WFRP and Descent, I'm not eager for the new WFRP.  Maybe my try at 4e this evening will ocnvince me otherwise, but I think I'm becoming a grognard.


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## Agamon (Aug 13, 2009)

I think this would be going over better if they'd have called it Descent: Warhammer, instead of WHFRP 3rd.  Okay, maybe not, it obviously has a different rulset than Descent, but this looks like a board game with some rp trappings, not unlike Descent.  Not tthat there's anything wrong with that (and it does look interesting for what it is), but I see this and my WHFRP books as two different species in the gaming family.


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## Nebulous (Aug 13, 2009)

scourger said:


> Having played WFRP and Descent, I'm not eager for the new WFRP.  Maybe my try at 4e this evening will ocnvince me otherwise, but I think I'm becoming a grognard.




Descent could be fun, but for what it's worth, tactical miniature combat with roleplaying elements is handled 100% better by 4e.  

I haven't seen mention of WFRP 3.0 minis, so i wonder if they're focusing it purely in the imagination?


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## RodneyThompson (Aug 13, 2009)

Preface: I have not played WFRP before, but I do know some stuff about the setting.

OK, so, I'll admit, I'm intrigued by this. I think there are several absolutely fascinating ideas here, and as someone who's never played WFRP they have me hooked.


Radically Different Components: I imagine this is what has a lot of people wigging out, but I'm interested to see if they can manage to radically alter the way information is presented, and yet still have the game play like an RPG. When you think about it, cards and tokens can convey the exact same kind of information as you would find on a traditional character sheet, it just lets you organize things a bit differently. I am excited to see whether or not they can break out of the traditional mode of thinking for how you present RPG information, while still maintaining the way an RPG plays.
Party-based Mechanics: Some of the preview material makes it look like you build characters, but you also build your party. I've always been fascinated by the idea of attaching mechanics to a whole party of heroes (really reinforcing the teamwork aspect of the RPG), providing special abilities and tactics based on your party makeup.
One Product for the Whole Gaming Group: From reading the preview material, it seems pretty clear that they are trying to sell this product not to a single player, but to a gaming group. If the box contains everything you need to play, the $99 price point makes a ton of sense. Your gaming group pitches in and buys it, or the GM buys it alone and shares, and it gives you everything everyone needs to play. That's a very different model, but one I could see as being more attractive for bringing in new players; if the players don't have to buy anything, but can play just as well, that could be appealing.

I'm not saying the game _will_ be good, but I think it's going to be very, very interesting to see how the game looks. Then again, if it plays like a roleplaying game, I'm perfectly amiable to the idea of radically different components and sales models. I think diversity breeds more interesting design, across the entire industry.


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## Agamon (Aug 13, 2009)

Nebulous said:


> I haven't seen mention of WFRP 3.0 minis, so i wonder if they're focusing it purely in the imagination?




I'd say 50:1 against on that.  It's a boxed set...from FFG...for $99.  No minis or board?  Very unlikely.


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## Iron Sky (Aug 13, 2009)

"Custom Dice give you unprecedented options for story-telling"

Has anyone ever found the type of dice you use to arbitrate mechanical elements give you "unprecedented options for story-telling"?  Or effect the story-telling much at all?


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## Obryn (Aug 13, 2009)

Iron Sky said:


> "Custom Dice give you unprecedented options for story-telling"
> 
> Has anyone ever found the type of dice you use to arbitrate mechanical elements give you "unprecedented options for story-telling"?  Or effect the story-telling much at all?



I don't know that the concept is that outlandish...  It seems like the custom dice will resolve actions in non-binary sorts of ways.  They give you different results than a mathematical success/failure, a dice pool to count successes, or a bunch of dice to add up.

If they can pull it off, it could be really interesting.

-O


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## hexgrid (Aug 13, 2009)

Agamon said:


> I'd say 50:1 against on that.  It's a boxed set...from FFG...for $99.  No minis or board?  Very unlikely.




So why do you think neither are mentioned in the description of the game's content, or in the summary of how the mechanics work?


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## thedungeondelver (Aug 13, 2009)

Iron Sky said:


> "Custom Dice give you unprecedented options for story-telling"
> 
> Has anyone ever found the type of dice you use to arbitrate mechanical elements give you "unprecedented options for story-telling"?  Or effect the story-telling much at all?





I've found that using them with certain tables and charts for creating or fleshing out areas of a town, city, dungeon etc. they can be useful, but using them exclusively to "tell the story" I think you'll wind up with LINCOLN TUNNEL TUNA over and over.*


*- god help me my daughter is a fan of *WIZARDS OF WAVERLEY PLACE*, a tortuously bad show on *DISNEY CHANNEL*.


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## MinionOfCthulhu (Aug 13, 2009)

thedungeondelver said:


> I've found that using them with certain tables and charts for creating or fleshing out areas of a town, city, dungeon etc. they can be useful, but using them exclusively to "tell the story" I think you'll wind up with LINCOLN TUNNEL TUNA over and over.*
> 
> 
> *- god help me my daughter is a fan of *WIZARDS OF WAVERLEY PLACE*, a tortuously bad show on *DISNEY CHANNEL*.




That is *VERY INTERESTING*. Tell us more about *SHOWS YOU SECRETLY WATCH* on *THE DISNEY CHANNEL*.


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## Rykion (Aug 13, 2009)

The game looks interesting.  I actually like that it is a new game rather than a few tweaks to an existing system.  I like WFRP 2E and have everything I need to play it from now until I die if I want to.  

This game looks to be focused on bringing in new players.  I think the dice pool mechanic looks interesting.  The information from FFG's website indicates the GM runs the game, not the dice.  The "story-telling" aspect of the rolls seems to be that some dice results can indicate something unusual happening rather than just success or failure.  Using cards as play aids is a good idea, but I hope all the same information is in the books.  The game looks geared to a heroic start rather than the some of the basic careers from previous editions.  

The $100 price tag seems high, and the components are meant for a GM and 3 players.  If you have more than 3 players you have to pick up the Adventurer's Toolkit for more dice and cards.  It also appears the 4 starting races are humans, dwarfs, high elves and wood elves.  Halflings are out, at least from the initial release.  

It definitely doesn't look like everyone's cup of tea, but I'll pick it up to check it out.


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## Primal (Aug 13, 2009)

I'm not so sure that a single rulebook will be enough for a whole group of players... IME that slows things down radically both during character creation and gameplay as everyone wants to browse  skill descriptions, spells, item lists, etc. And none of the guys in my group would spend a 100 dollars just to get an extra copy of the rulebook.

I just don't see the potential in this pricing model, as I'm not paying for "nothing"; if I'm handing out 20-25 dollars for a game, I expect I'll get a book for that price and I would *never* pay for a "shared" boxed set the GM or one of the other guys gers to keep. Just as I wouldn't pay more than 5 dollars for a "shared" boardgame or computer game or novel; I want my own copy I can read/play whenever I want to.


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## Rykion (Aug 13, 2009)

Primal said:


> I'm not so sure that a single rulebook will be enough for a whole group of players... IME that slows things down radically both during character creation and gameplay as everyone wants to browse  skill descriptions, spells, item lists, etc. And none of the guys in my group would spend a 100 dollars just to get an extra copy of the rulebook.



The game's blurb mentions "More than 300 cards keep you in the game, no need to look up skills or abilities."  The whole point of the play aids seems to be that players won't need a book in front of them during play.  I don't know about during character creation though.


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## Obryn (Aug 13, 2009)

Yeah, cards can do wonders for keeping important information at-hand.  In our 4e game, we pretty much never open up actual books to look up character abilities.

I can absolutely believe that the cards for this would obviate the need for multiple books at the table.

-O


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## RodneyThompson (Aug 13, 2009)

Primal said:


> I'm not so sure that a single rulebook will be enough for a whole group of players... IME that slows things down radically both during character creation and gameplay as everyone wants to browse  skill descriptions, spells, item lists, etc. And none of the guys in my group would spend a 100 dollars just to get an extra copy of the rulebook.




The blurb on the FFG website indicates that it comes with four copies of the rulebook. That doesn't alleviate your concerns about wanting your own copy--but if you're the one to buy the box, you can supply the stuff for three players to play with (in case you have players that aren't so adamant about owning things themselves, as I know many gamers are).


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## MinionOfCthulhu (Aug 13, 2009)

Rykion said:


> It also appears the 4 starting races are humans, dwarfs, high elves and wood elves.  Halflings are out, at least from the initial release.




Wood elves? That's weird. They're really more of the "sit in their forest with their stolen children, avoid Chris Hanson, and kill anyone who steps on a twig" kind of people rather than "roam around seeking fortune and fame".


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## Rykion (Aug 13, 2009)

Moridin said:


> The blurb on the FFG website indicates that it comes with four copies of the rulebook. That doesn't alleviate your concerns about wanting your own copy--but if you're the one to buy the box, you can supply the stuff for three players to play with (in case you have players that aren't so adamant about owning things themselves, as I know many gamers are).



It comes with 4 books, but only 1 main rulebook.  The other 3 books are a book on wizards, a book on religion and a GM's book.

Edit: The blurb mentions 4 rulesbooks, but it is made more clear in the product's description on FFG's website.


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## RodneyThompson (Aug 13, 2009)

Rykion said:


> It comes with 4 books, but only 1 main rulebook.  The other 3 books are a book on wizards, a book on religion and a GM's book.
> 
> Edit: The blurb mentions 4 rulesbooks, but it is made more clear in the product's description on FFG's website.




Ah, OK! Thanks for clearing that up.


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## Rykion (Aug 13, 2009)

The hopeless gamer blog has some pictures from Gen Con up, including 4 pictures of some of the contents of WFRP 3E.
The Hopeless Gamer
You can find links to the pics on the left or just go to older posts until you find them.  The third picture shows a character sheet.


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## mach1.9pants (Aug 13, 2009)

Henry said:


> ...It sounds like an excellent opportunity to get boardgame enthusiasts into an RPG that can gateway them into tabletop roleplaying, but just the one picture of that troll slayer stat card tells me enough to know I'm probably not going to like it as a substitute for WFRP2. ...



Yeah I agree, this definetely looks like an entrance product. One of our players also is a real big, once a week, board gamer. Another plays a lot with his better-half. So dragging this box to one of the board game sessions sounds like an awesome idea, maybe our weekly DnD session might gain some converts? To me it is a bit like 4E being an TTRPG with strong 'tactical minis game' elements. We like the Tac Minis bit as we were all wargamers, we can get a small wargame fix as well as RPlaying, which is a good thing as none of us a wargamed for ages.







Moridin said:


> [*]Party-based Mechanics: Some of the preview material makes it look like you build characters, but you also build your party. I've always been fascinated by the idea of attaching mechanics to a whole party of heroes (really reinforcing the teamwork aspect of the RPG), providing special abilities and tactics based on your party makeup.



 Yeah I like this idea, I really liked the noble family mechanics is SIF RPG, they are party mechanics, things you have to share.







> [*]One Product for the Whole Gaming Group:



Very 'boardgamey' but, not a bad idea IMO. I really doubt there will be many conversions from the real old-school game that is 2E!


MinionOfCthulhu said:


> That is *VERY INTERESTING*. Tell us more about *SHOWS YOU SECRETLY WATCH* on *THE DISNEY CHANNEL*.



LOL







Rykion said:


> It comes with 4 books, but only 1 main rulebook.  The other 3 books are a book on wizards, a book on religion and a GM's book.
> 
> Edit: The blurb mentions 4 rulesbooks, but it is made more clear in the product's description on FFG's website.



If it is anything like 4E then you just don't need more than one rule book, the rules are so 'self contained' on the char sheet etc that we only get a PHB out to clarify a rule about once per session.. and then we actually use the Compendium, normally the glossary

If this is a good product (and can be got reasonably cheaply on Amazon) I'll get a copy and go on a mission to the Boardgamers, a crusade to convert them to the ONE TRUE GAMING style: *TTRPG!*


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## Primal (Aug 13, 2009)

Moridin said:


> The blurb on the FFG website indicates that it comes with four copies of the rulebook. That doesn't alleviate your concerns about wanting your own copy--but if you're the one to buy the box, you can supply the stuff for three players to play with (in case you have players that aren't so adamant about owning things themselves, as I know many gamers are).




Each boxed set seems to come with four different rulebooks (one for wizards, one for priests, one for the game master and one actual rulebook); this means that everyone who wishes to have their own copy of the core rules must pay 100 dollars to buy the box (unless, of course, FFG intends to sell them as separate copies, too -- which they definitely should, in my opinion). 

Most gamers I know (as you said) don't want to pay for a "shared" box; if they dish out 20-25 dollars, they expect to get something concrete in return. Having said that, I don't see this sort of business model going over very well with existing WFRP fans... I think a major portion of the current fan base started with the 1st edition (or are still playing it), so any experimental mechanics that bring the game closer to a boardgame may be too much. I wonder if FFG should have tested the waters with a different brand name to see how these changes are received among gamers; as WFRP does not have the same level of brand recognition D&D and WoD has, this may yet bite them in the ankle. A simpler version of the rules combined with the high price and cards and general "boardgame feel" may alienate the existing fans and fail to bring in the "new crowd".

Just some thoughts.


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## Primal (Aug 13, 2009)

Rykion said:


> The game's blurb mentions "More than 300 cards keep you in the game, no need to look up skills or abilities."  The whole point of the play aids seems to be that players won't need a book in front of them during play.  I don't know about during character creation though.




After looking at those pics from GenCon, seems like every adventure needs its own, unique 'party sheet', and that char. sheets are not filled in the traditional way anymore; I don't like it. Imagine the chaos when someone accidentally sweeps all your "markers" and cards or whatever you keep track of your skills and wounds and items with from the table (has happened to me a lot of times with boardgames); you practically lose all info on your "sheet" (including your advancements). What about after the session? You write it all down? Keep the "sheets" with everything (cards, markers, dice) attached to them on your shelf?

Seems a bit uncomfortable for my taste.


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## Primal (Aug 13, 2009)

I also realized something... when I was doing collection development for the RPG collection at the library I work at, I deliberately ignored WFRP supplements as I knew 3E was in development; however, no public library will likely purchase a game that has so much cards, dice and extra play aids they constantly need to replace with lost ones.  Well, maybe I'll purchase some 2E supplements for the collection next year... *sigh*.


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## gribble (Aug 13, 2009)

Moridin said:


> 'm not saying the game _will_ be good, but I think it's going to be very, very interesting to see how the game looks. Then again, if it plays like a roleplaying game, I'm perfectly amiable to the idea of radically different components and sales models.



Couldn't agree more. As long as it still plays like a RPG, I couldn't care less whether you use standard or special dice, or whether you use P&P character sheets, character builder generated sheets and cards or a character folio comprised of cards and counters.


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## Nightchilde-2 (Aug 13, 2009)

Normally, I'm all for new editions.  I tend to love them.

In this case?  Not so much.


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## CelticMutt (Aug 14, 2009)

Urgh.  I was hoping the books would be decent size to justify the price better, but in those Con pics, the wizard book looks pretty thin.


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## Logan_Bonner (Aug 14, 2009)

Primal said:


> What about after the session? You write it all down? Keep the "sheets" with everything (cards, markers, dice) attached to them on your shelf?




It looks like it comes with boxes for your "sheet," kind of like Descent.


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## Obryn (Aug 14, 2009)

CelticMutt said:


> Urgh.  I was hoping the books would be decent size to justify the price better, but in those Con pics, the wizard book looks pretty thin.



Yeah, all of the books look pretty thin.  I don't know how much text you get with it.  Like I said before, cards can serve as a replacement somewhat, but I'm skeptical if most of the game is on them.

Those pictures leave me ... confused.

I'll give anything a try, but as of right now it's not going to get my $100.

-O


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## Rykion (Aug 14, 2009)

CelticMutt said:


> Urgh.  I was hoping the books would be decent size to justify the price better, but in those Con pics, the wizard book looks pretty thin.



It's hard to say if those are actually the books or are simply mock-ups.  Someone at Gen Con would have to let us know if they have any copies of the real books to flip through. *hint hint*


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## JRRNeiklot (Aug 14, 2009)

Iron Sky said:


> "Custom Dice give you unprecedented options for story-telling"
> 
> Has anyone ever found the type of dice you use to arbitrate mechanical elements give you "unprecedented options for story-telling"?  Or effect the story-telling much at all?




GM: Roll to see if you attack, flee, or parley.  Ooh, a fumble, you drop dead from fright.


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## teitan (Aug 14, 2009)

FFG has always struck me as an odd company with their products. They produce things I want and then I look at the price tag and set it back down. I'd love to play Descent for example, but I just can't justify the price tag, even discounted, because I wouldn't play it regularly enough. A friend bought their Marvel Superheroes game & it was fun but very, very odd & not reflective of comic books by any means. LOL. Nice minis though.

I'd like to check this out, but at 100 bucks I don't think I can justify it at this time. I don't even have a regular D&D group right (first time in 10 years) now. Maybe if I could find some players who wanted to do more than D&D (when I get a group), but I really want to play Mutants & Masterminds myself.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 14, 2009)

JRRNeiklot said:


> GM: Roll to see if you attack, flee, or parley.  Ooh, a fumble, you drop dead from fright.



If that's how it works, they certainly have the grim & gritty nailed down. 

I hope there will be some play reports from GenCon or playtesters up soon. Because, as Moridin said, the presentation is so different from "traditional" games...


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## Korgoth (Aug 14, 2009)

Best case scenario: they produce 20 million units, sell five of them, go out of business, someone else negotiates for the WHFRP license and brings it back down to earth.

Funny how if you want to play it with more than 3 players you're supposed to buy extra packs.


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## Jan van Leyden (Aug 14, 2009)

Iron Sky said:


> "Custom Dice give you unprecedented options for story-telling"
> 
> Has anyone ever found the type of dice you use to arbitrate mechanical elements give you "unprecedented options for story-telling"?  Or effect the story-telling much at all?




As I mentioned upthread, the rather obscure Throwing Stones used cutom dice as well. Each d6 had a special combination of symbols: there were sword-symbols for melee, bow-symbols for ranged attacks and quite some others as well.

Your character was partly defined by the set of dice you selected for him; advancement ment to add another die to the set. For any action you had to roll all the dice of your character and counting the relevant ones. Say your character attacked the orc with his sword, then you counted the "swords" rolled and, iirc, added some fixed value.

For your sword figther you wanted to have dice with lots of swords on them, somtimes two or three to one side of the die.

In the very short lived test-run we performed, we used the other, not counting dice to interpret the action. So the orc rolled too few "swords" to hit, but the dice showed several agility/skill symbols? Looks like it was too much concentrating on evading your blows to effectively attack!


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 14, 2009)

Korgoth said:


> Best case scenario: they produce 20 million units, sell five of them, go out of business, someone else negotiates for the WHFRP license and brings it back down to earth.
> 
> Funny how if you want to play it with more than 3 players you're supposed to buy extra packs.



Excuse me? Why do you wish people to lose their jobs and have their hard work and efforts gone for nothing? 

Here's my best case scenario: May you live in interesting times.


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## Imperialus (Aug 14, 2009)

I think it looks neat *ducks*

At the end of the day, FFG is trying something new, bringing some board game elements to roleplaying.  Good for them.  If anyone can pull it off they will.


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## ST (Aug 14, 2009)

I'm definately excited to see more. I love the presentation. Expensive, yeah, but for me it beats yet another $50 hardcover book, since it's got so many custom components.


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## Phaezen (Aug 14, 2009)

Imperialus said:


> I think it looks neat *ducks*
> 
> At the end of the day, FFG is trying something new, bringing some board game elements to roleplaying.  Good for them.  If anyone can pull it off they will.




And oif it brings some board gamers into roleplaying even better.

FFG is one of the companys I trust when it comes to pulling off seemingly insane high cost products.  The quality of their components makes the money worth it.


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## Maggan (Aug 14, 2009)

Imperialus said:


> I think it looks neat *ducks*




It looks fabulous!

It doesn't look like the WFRP I'm used to. But I'll try it out and probably write an extensive review with pictures and maybe video.

/M


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## Obryn (Aug 14, 2009)

Korgoth said:


> Best case scenario: they produce 20 million units, sell five of them, go out of business, someone else negotiates for the WHFRP license and brings it back down to earth.
> 
> Funny how if you want to play it with more than 3 players you're supposed to buy extra packs.



I agree that the format won't work for my own home game, but I still have my WFRP2e books.  _FFG hasn't done anything to WFRP2e_ (or 1e for that matter) - it's still around, still playable, and still has all the stuff I could ever want (and even stuff I don't - Kislev?  Seriously?)

Once again, it's just a company making a new game, which I may or may not like.  It's nothing to get mad at.  "HOW DARE THEY MAKE A GAME I DON'T LIKE?!?  I HOPE THEY ALL DIE IN A FIRE!!1"  I guess I don't feel a compelling need to have every new edition of a game I like _also_ be a game I like. 

Personally, I'd be interested in playing a session or two with it, but it won't be suitable for my own table, and I won't buy it as a result.  I don't want to tell any of my 5-7 players "Sorry, guys, you need to sit out this session.  We have too many players for WFRP!"  And I shudder to think how much expansions would cost, if the core set is $100!   So no matter how awesome it is - and it very well might be - it won't work for us.

-O


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## Mallus (Aug 14, 2009)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Why do you wish people to lose their jobs and have their hard work and efforts gone for nothing?



Fan entitlement?


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## Dm_from_Brazil (Aug 14, 2009)

Mallus said:


> Fan entitlement?




No, it´s only NEEEEERD RAAAAAAAGE!
NERD
NERD
NERD
NERD

                ( Now with Echo effect!)

To me, this dice mechanics looks like more with other GW classic: HeroQuest. You also had results based in symbol, non-numbered dice...


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## Obryn (Aug 14, 2009)

One thing that I think might get traction is that now WFRP and Warhammer Fantasy Battles may end up closer to one another in tone.

There's always been a weird disconnect between the two.  You have awesomely powerful characters in WFB, and Rat Catchers in WFRP.  This difference has never bothered me, but I don't think it's insane that GW would want WFRP to better reflect WFB.

-O


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## darjr (Aug 14, 2009)

Obryn said:


> One thing that I think might get traction is that now WFRP and Warhammer Fantasy Battles may end up closer to one another in tone.
> 
> There's always been a weird disconnect between the two.  You have awesomely powerful characters in WFB, and Rat Catchers in WFRP.  This difference has never bothered me, but I don't think it's insane that GW would want WFRP to better reflect WFB.
> 
> -O




I've got the original Warhammer white boxed set, the game at that time was both an rpg and a wargame. The characters were in line, more so than other games I think, with the grunts on the field, and life was short because of that. I think that makes for two different styles of play, the lowly gritty try and survive, and the epic battles. Individuals in each died like flies, but the focus in each made the games play very different.

edit: http://www.pen-paper.net/rpgdb.php?op=showbook&bookid=2682

Anyway, I'm very intrigued by the new game. I understand why some are less than pleased. I don't understand the anger. I'm hoping that it's a great game and gets more folk into the hobby. At $100 I'll try and get in a game or more, but I'll think twice about owning it.


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## Dragonbait (Aug 14, 2009)

Looks pretty, and that's what I expect from FFG for $100. It may play very well too, on it's own. 

I think I'll hold on to my 2ed books just in case and see if I can convert this new version to the Cadwallon setting and use some of their additional rules.


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## Agamon (Aug 14, 2009)

Huh.  Being a board gamer, $100 for a big chunky game doesn't bother me.  But do you see what you get in a game like Descent, Twilight Imperium or Tide of Iron (all of which run around the same price)?  Reams of die cut markers, plastic miniatures, cards, boards, dice.  I have a hard time believing it's just a few skinny books a few dice and cards.  Something isn't adding up right....


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## coyote6 (Aug 14, 2009)

It's not out yet, right? This is just the announcement, so the price could be wrong, could change, or the contents list might not be complete yet. Somebody get someone at the con to ask FFG!


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## Korgoth (Aug 14, 2009)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Excuse me? Why do you wish people to lose their jobs and have their hard work and efforts gone for nothing?
> 
> Here's my best case scenario: May you live in interesting times.




Didn't mean to hurt your feelings, fraulein.

I don't wish them unemployment. I wish them to stop screwing up things I think are cool. In my best case scenario, after the ruination of FFG they all go on to become millionaire haberdashers and live long, well-adjusted lives.


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## Obryn (Aug 14, 2009)

Korgoth said:


> Didn't mean to hurt your feelings, fraulein.
> 
> I don't wish them unemployment. I wish them to stop screwing up things I think are cool. In my best case scenario, after the ruination of FFG they all go on to become millionaire haberdashers and live long, well-adjusted lives.



They're not screwing up something you think is cool.  You can still think WFRP1e or 2e is cool forever, and they can never screw it up.

They're making a new version of something which you think is cool, which you don't expect to like.

There's a big difference that's often lost in conversations like this.

-O


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## coyote6 (Aug 14, 2009)

Obryn said:


> They're not screwing up something you think is cool.  You can still think WFRP1e or 2e is cool forever, and they can never screw it up.
> 
> They're making a new version of something which you think is cool, which you don't expect to like.
> 
> There's a big difference that's often lost in conversations like this.




Well, I can see where one can be disappointed in a new edition, and think "Argh, they screwed it up!" -- where "it" is the new edition. The thinking would be, "This new edition could have been the Ultimate Earthly Incarnation of Utter Awesome. But it is not. Argh, they screwed it up!" (though probably with less hyperbole; much like a camera, the Internet adds 10 lbs. Of hyperbole).

OTOH, it isn't even out yet, the mechanics are barely hinted at, so while I can see feeling trepidation (are the weird dice actually necessary?), it seems a bit premature. But not unexpected; see prior discussions of the new version of pretty much anything.


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## Primal (Aug 14, 2009)

Obryn said:


> I agree that the format won't work for my own home game, but I still have my WFRP2e books.  _FFG hasn't done anything to WFRP2e_ (or 1e for that matter) - it's still around, still playable, and still has all the stuff I could ever want (and even stuff I don't - Kislev?  Seriously?)
> 
> Once again, it's just a company making a new game, which I may or may not like.  It's nothing to get mad at.  "HOW DARE THEY MAKE A GAME I DON'T LIKE?!?  I HOPE THEY ALL DIE IN A FIRE!!1"  I guess I don't feel a compelling need to have every new edition of a game I like _also_ be a game I like.
> 
> ...




Obryn, that's just not fun -- don't try to prevent the WFRP Edition War! 

Alright, seriously, I agree with your points -- in my group we're still enjoying 2nd Edition and there is so many books we're barely used... probably enough to entertain us for years. I don't think 4E was published "too early", but I definitely feel that FFG should have waited maybe two or three years more (and likely playtested their new concept with more groups; even better, they could have released it under a different brand name to see how it goes over without any "burden of history").

I might try this, but I don't think the GM will pay 100 dollars (in fact, this will cost 100 *euros* over here in Northern Europe). As I said before, if FFG has any business sense, they will release free quick-play rules soon.


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## lutecius (Aug 15, 2009)

Of course it's too early to judge but that sounds awfully boardgamey to me. It's sad that they decided to call it wfrp3, even though I understand why from a marketing pov.
The old system could really use some balancing and streamlining. Now I'll have to wait at least another 5 years for that. 



Iron Sky said:


> "Custom Dice give you unprecedented options for story-telling"
> 
> Has anyone ever found the type of dice you use to arbitrate mechanical elements give you "unprecedented options for story-telling"?



It wouldn't be the first time that entirely gamist mechanics are passed off as "narrative control/opportunities"  (coughencounter/daily powerscough)



Phaezen said:


> Imperialus said:
> 
> 
> > At the end of the day, FFG is trying something new, bringing some board game elements to roleplaying.
> ...



Turning a rpg into something else doesn't bring boardgamers into roleplaying it just brings some roleplayers to play a boardgame (and lets down those who have no interest in it.)



Obryn said:


> I agree that the format won't work for my own home game, but I still have my WFRP2e books.  _FFG hasn't done anything to WFRP2e_ (or 1e for that matter) - it's still around, still playable, and still has all the stuff I could ever want (and even stuff I don't - Kislev?  Seriously?)
> 
> Once again, it's just a company making a new game, which I may or may not like.  It's nothing to get mad at.  "HOW DARE THEY MAKE A GAME I DON'T LIKE?!?  I HOPE THEY ALL DIE IN A FIRE!!1"  I guess I don't feel a compelling need to have every new edition of a game I like _also_ be a game I like.



That's when you think the game is fine as is.

If you think it can and should be improved, yes a new edition can screw it for you. This is not "just a company making a new game". The more successful it is...
1-the longer you'll have to wait for the next installment.
2-the more it will influence the design of future editions.

So wishing the version you don't like a speedy death makes perfect sense.



Obryn said:


> One thing that I think might get traction is that now WFRP and Warhammer Fantasy Battles may end up closer to one another in tone.
> 
> There's always been a weird disconnect between the two.  You have awesomely powerful characters in WFB, and Rat Catchers in WFRP.  This difference has never bothered me, but I don't think it's insane that GW would want WFRP to better reflect WFB.



I agree about the disconnect but I'm not sure how action cards and custom dice address the issue.


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## Obryn (Aug 15, 2009)

lutecius said:


> That's when you think the game is fine as is.
> 
> If you think it can and should be improved, yes a new edition can screw it for you. This is not "just a company making a new game". The more successful it is...
> 1-the longer you'll have to wait for the next installment.
> ...



So because someone who doesn't owe you anything is making something you don't like, you wish them failure for it?  That's a pretty short-sighted and selfish view of gaming, IMO.

I guess I can't muster up the selfishness required to wish a game line failure, assuming they can find enough players for it.  I'll play what I want to play, and they'll play what they want to play.  It's a win-win scenario, unlike waiting and hoping that someone somewhere will produce a version of a game that may only appeal to me.  That's bound to end up in disappointment.  A brand new version of WFRP gives me more options; nobody ever promised I'd have to like them.

Also... WFRP2e wasn't fine as it was?  It's a brilliant game with a large line of high-quality supplements.  I have enough stuff to last me years.



> I agree about the disconnect but I'm not sure how action cards and custom dice address the issue.



No idea.  I don't think I'll particularly like the mechanical aspects of it, but I'm not going to sign up for a torches-and-pitchforks rally, either.

-O


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## guivre (Aug 15, 2009)

Sat through the seminar. Crap IMO.

Overly structured, extraordinarily limited, way too expensive, and the deal breaker: it's fiddly as all get out. 

After hearing the talk, my suspicion is that this is a re-skinned game. It was probably in the design stages far before FFG got the WHFRP license and was re-purposed.

The tone and theme of the game have changed as well, enough to make a difference in the feel at least. 

Taking maps out of the game doesn't make it less of a board game. This is pure FFG board game mechanics re-hashed, glued together and called WHFRP.

My bet is that it will flop. I'm definitely glad I snatched up as much 2e stuff as I could.


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## Ariosto (Aug 15, 2009)

> So because someone who doesn't owe you anything is making something you don't like, you wish them failure for it?



Call it "demand-side" economics. Nobody owes him a comfy living as a poop-producer, either.


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## pawsplay (Aug 15, 2009)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Excuse me? Why do you wish people to lose their jobs and have their hard work and efforts gone for nothing?




So they can learn valuable lessons.


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