# good Alter Self forms



## superkurt13 (Oct 4, 2006)

I will be playing an 8th level wizard and I love the potential of the Alter Self spell.  I see it as a way to gain flight and maybe a boost in AC.  Could someone please recommend some good monsters to turn into?  Mainly I would like a form that can fly, but I would also like something that has an AC bonus, maybe a size smaller than myself, and a humanoid form so I can use scrolls and wands.

Any ideas would be appreciated.


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## Patlin (Oct 4, 2006)

There are lots of lists out there.  I'd recomend a google search, it'll probably turn up at least three.

The only trick is that it varies by your type.  Humanoid is easy to find, I've never seen a decent set of applications if you happen to be a construct...


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## mvincent (Oct 4, 2006)

1) Troglodyte is usually considered the best (+6 natural armor).
2) Locathah is good for swimming (60', +3 natural armor)
3) Most campaigns do not include flying Humanoids, but Forgotten Realms has the Avarial race  (fly 50' see Races of Faerun)

See this thread for more options.


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## Chris Markham (Oct 4, 2017)

Gargoyle is humanoid and gives flight, along with a decent AC bonus Why does everyone forget the Gargoyle?

Sahaugin is better than Locathah for aquatic, and gives natural attack options.

You can even be large sized, as a Minotaur, with all that goes with the size increase (and the Tracking feat).

For me, "Alter Self" is like the Swiss Army knife of spells. Gives you different movement options (even fly), can allow you to breathe underwater, gives you AC bonuses, and the temporary use of Feats you don't have, as well as skill bonuses, all at the SAME time, and with a 2nd level spell.


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## Celebrim (Oct 4, 2017)

3.5's version of 'Alter Self' is flat out broken, and one of the 3.5 era spells that give 3.5 such a bad name.   I have never understood why they used 3.5 to errata a variety of spells that play in 3.0 had indicated were a bit too good (haste and harm, most notably) and yet without play testing the changes broke perfectly good and balanced 3.0 era spells like 'Alter Self' wide open.


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## mvincent (Oct 5, 2017)

There are a few red flags on Chris Markham's post:
1) It's his first (and currently only) post
2) It resurrects a thread that was dead for (exactly) 11 years
3) It does not realize that "Monstrous Humanoid" and "Humanoid" are different types


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## Dandu (Oct 5, 2017)

Are you insinuating that he may be a COMMUNIST?


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## Greenfield (Oct 5, 2017)

Chris Markham said:


> Gargoyle is humanoid and gives flight, along with a decent AC bonus Why does everyone forget the Gargoyle?
> 
> Sahaugin is better than Locathah for aquatic, and gives natural attack options.
> 
> ...




Actually Gargoyle is a Monstrous Humanoid, which isn't the same thing.

So, for that matter are Sahaugin and Minotaur.  

If your character is Humanoid, they you have to choose a Humanoid form, 5 HD or less, as your target form.

If you take the Fey Blooded feat you can choose Fey forms like Pixie, which gives you the small size and a good fly speed.


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## Greenfield (Oct 6, 2017)

If we're going to do a Res' on this thread, let's do it like we mean it.  Let's discuss what's good and bad about the spell, and how to moderate it.

Using the spell to gain extra Natural AC seems like the most obvious use.  Lizardfolk are Humanoid, with +5 Natural Armor, and Troglodyte has +6.  Both good choices.  You get to keep and use all your gear and gain lot's of AC bonus for the cost of a low level spell.  Their natural AC even stacks with magic items that grant it, so it's a high quality bonus.

Having the ability to become amphibious (Aquatic Elves) isn't exactly game breaking.  There are very few campaigns where it really comes into play.  I don't see a problem with them, though others might.

The winged elves of Faerun were mentioned as a Humanoid that can fly.  Some see this as a problem, since the _Alter Self_ spell lasts longer than _Fly_, and is a level lower.

What are good ways to control this, organically?  That is, how do we limit this within the game, rather than simply by DM fiat?

One way I've heard used is to ask, "Has your character ever heard of/seen such an Elf?".  That, sadly, is solved with a Knowledge Nature check.  The DC to know about a creature is based on their hit dice, so the Avariel aren't exactly hard to have heard of.  Even applying a circumstance modifier for "Rare and reclusive" doesn't help all that much.

Another way is to simply say, "That's from another game world.  we aren't using Faerun", though that borders on the hard "Because I said so" that I'd like to avoid.

The only Large Humanoid form I'm aware of in the MM series is one of the Naga, and I think that's an error.

Small Humanoids are easy to find (Halfling or Gnome), but I don't know of any other non-erroneous Large ones.  Half-Ogre doesn't work, since the spell forbids changing to a templated creature.  

Does anyone know of a Large Humanoid in the game?
Does anyone know of another winged/flying Humanoid in the game, other than the Avariel Elf?
Does anyone know of a Humanoid with useful racial Feats, such as Tracking?

What other useful forms are there?
What other troublesome forms (from the DM/game balance point of view) are there?


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## ElectricDragon (Oct 6, 2017)

Other than werebear, bear or hybrid form or weretiger, tiger or hybrid form and a psionic duergar using _expansion_ I don't know of any. 

It seems, though I am unsure if it is stated anywhere, that Humanoids cut off at Medium size and Giant type takes over for larger sizes. I am sure there are exceptions, smaller giants and bigger humanoids.


Flying in game can be dealt with:
1. by applying minimum forward speed to remain flying and 25% damage rule for forcing winged creatures to land, higher % (50%?) = crash, don't forget maneuverability.
2. increasing the chances of flying/missile weapon encounters while aloft
3. requiring Dexterity checks for special maneuvers (flying through window or open door at speed, etc. failure means splat: Speed=falling distance)


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## Greenfield (Oct 6, 2017)

First, all of the lycanthropic forms you mention are, well, lycanthropes.  That is, they're templates, and barred by the spell.

Additionally the Werebear and Were Tiger are both well over the five hit dice limits of the spell.  

As for flight, I agree that we need to enforce maneuverability and encumbrance rules, as well as limits to flying while injured.

Your call for Saves for certain maneuvers is fine, but there isn't anything anywhere in the rules that gives damage for collisions.  Falling damage, based on distance, is there, but none for running into walls, door frames or opponents.  And inventing "Speed =Falling distance" will draw a lot of arguments, since falling speed isn't linearly related to falling distance.

That is, doubling the distance doesn't double the speed.  Speed is based on time spent falling, because, well, that's just the way gravity works.  And it is a lot of work, far more than most are willing to go into at a game table, to reverse engineer speed (in feet per six seconds) into a falling distance.

So rather than trying to find ways to punish a PC for using a spell to do something entirely legal (and clearly within the spell's intent), maybe we should look for other solutions.


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## Celebrim (Oct 6, 2017)

Greenfield said:


> What other troublesome forms (from the DM/game balance point of view) are there?




The fundamental problem with the spell as it was rewritten for 3.5 is that it creates a distant and extremely challenging design constraint; namely, that the balance of the spell depends on what humanoid type creatures are introduced into the campaign and what sort of attributes that they have.  In other words, since the 3.5 version of the spell doesn't actually tell you what it does, and as such, the power of the spell depends entirely on things not written in the spell.     

I'll be perfectly frank; I'd consider inclusion of this spell in your campaign grounds for leaving your campaign on its own.  In other words, this is sufficient touchstone for me to decide whether you are even competent to be a DM.   If this spell exists as written in 3.5 in your game, I'd consider your game not worth playing, since the mere inclusion suggests that you either play a spellcaster or your character is crap and that the DM is utterly uncaring about the balance or playability of his game.  Further, it was this spell that I saw perusing the 3.5 version of the game, that instilled on me a resolve not to buy any further 3.X era products from WotC.   Attempting in some way to fix this spell via any sort of metagame is unreasonable.   It simply should be barred from play as written as an example of extremely amateur and silly design.

Ironically, this was created by the same company that creates MtG, and hence ought to be completely aware of the dangers of creating distant design constraints through rules interacting with unknowably diverse future additions to the rules.


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## Greenfield (Oct 6, 2017)

So...

The problem you see with the spell is that it exists?  Mmmm.  Okay.

I think that the spell could be salvaged if some more hard limits were imposed.

For example, it spells out limits on flight, in terms of max speed and maneuverability, it spells out ground movement limits, it spells out hit dice and size limits.

Perhaps it needs to say something like, "No more than one racial feat may be acquired from a form".  Maybe it needs to limit Natural AC that can be gained (+5 or +6 is pretty hefty for a 2nd level spell).  

I had a bad-guy Half-Dragon, and planned to have him use Alter self to transform into a dragon.  The five hit dice limit shot that idea down in little tiny flames:  To meet the hit dice limit he had to become a Small dragon.  Not scary even to 3rd level PCs.

So let's consider some house-ruled structure for the spell.

First note, while it says you can go one size category larger, there aren't any Large Humanoids that I can find in any of the MMs. It places limits on Fly speed, but there's only the one Humanoid who has one, and that race is very setting selective.  It places limits on ground speed (I think), but there aren't any Humanoids that even come close to it.

So what other limits would you place, and why?

I see it as an upgraded, longer duration _Disguise Self_ spell, one that can't be seen through with a Saving throw.  

Other than that, it's an AC boost and not much more.  <Caveat:  If your caster is Humanoid.>

Should the spell be limited to Humanoids?


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## Celebrim (Oct 7, 2017)

Greenfield said:


> I see it as an upgraded, longer duration Disguise Self spell, one that can't be seen through with a Saving throw.




It was.. in 3.0.  Plus it was the first spell you could acquire that allowed you to fly, albeit weakly.   All of that was good enough as is for a 2nd level spell, and saw play at my tables.  But the upgrade that lets you copy the abilities of any humanoid that sees print makes the spell just as ridiculous as any humanoid that sees print.   

The point is, it should tell you what it does.  It shouldn't copy abilities from anything.  

If you are going to make game breaking spells, break anything but shape change or summoning spells.   Not only are they often very useful even with limitations, but if you break open shape changing and summoning spells, then you slow play to a crawl.


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## Greenfield (Oct 8, 2017)

I spoke to my group today, and mentioned your advice.  They like the idea of returning to the earlier version of the spell.  I expect that we'll take a vote next week.


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## ElectricDragon (Oct 8, 2017)

> Does anyone know of a Large Humanoid in the game?




Simple question. I answered it. Then you put restrictions on it. Maybe the restrictions were implied but they were not stated.

Hmmm, you didn't even mention the duergar, because his psi-like ability would not be gained when changing into a duergar; but a PC duergar would retain the _expansion_ ability and be able to attain large size no matter what humanoid form he changed into with the _alter self_ spell. In fact, he could attain large size for any Small Humanoid once he reaches 7th level.


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## Greenfield (Oct 8, 2017)

You're right, the one sentence question, taken completely out of context, didn't specify limits.  Read in the context of the thread, and the spell being discussed, the limits of that spell are pretty clear.

Further comments on your post, and it's follow up complaint, are forbidden by ENWorld rules.  If you actually want the rest, PM me.


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